# Cooked Wood



## Loudguitars.com (Jan 29, 2011)

Here is our story on Cooked wood, what are your thoughts?
http://bit.ly/w022sU

Thanks


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Interesting.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I wonder how they deprive the wood of oxygen during cooking?...argon maybe???


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## Tarbender (Apr 7, 2006)

This sounds very similar to what Gibson are doing with thier "Baked Maple" boards they are using to replace Rosewood on some of thier guitars


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## JHarasym (Mar 27, 2007)

Could you provide a link for Coal-Tone guitars?


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Seems liked it is more baked than cooked. Definitely not grilled or especially boiled. Not pan fried either.


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

My thoughts are that I can't stand reading red text on a black background.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

NGroeneveld said:


> My thoughts are that I can't stand reading red text on a black background.


It's heated to 300 degrees... 


http://www.goodfellowinc.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=143&Itemid=426


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## Loudguitars.com (Jan 29, 2011)

*Link*



JHarasym said:


> Could you provide a link for Coal-Tone guitars?


No website yet, some guitar models available at Boutique Tone in Montreal and you can inquire about the necks through us. basically your shape Tele or Strat with your selected fret size and material, select for vintage or modern size keys and finish is $320.00 shipped in Canada.

Thanks


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## Loudguitars.com (Jan 29, 2011)

NGroeneveld said:


> My thoughts are that I can't stand reading red text on a black background.


Well we will have to change that just for you then. it is our goal to be like everyone else after all.

All the best.


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## The Kicker Of Elves (Jul 20, 2006)

Loudguitars.com said:


> Well we will have to change that just for you then. it is our goal to be like everyone else after all.
> 
> All the best.


Nice, stay classy Loudguitars.com.

All the best.


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

Loudguitars.com said:


> Well we will have to change that just for you then. it is our goal to be like everyone else after all.
> 
> All the best.


That won't be necessary lol. I didn't mean to offend you, but I guess sometimes I tend to shoot from the lip. Having used baked maple myself, I'm familiar with it. I think it's good stuff, great for necks and fretboards, looks great and feels great too. Hope you sell lots of it. All the best in your endeavours.


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## cwittler (May 17, 2011)

Robert1950 said:


> Seems liked it is more baked than cooked. Definitely not grilled or especially boiled. Not pan fried either.


Definitely "roasted". Wink!


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

Pretty guitars.

They must have a system to avoid case hardening the timber, which is what usually occurs when you kiln at higher temperatures. The outside cells of the wood dry quickly locking moisture inside and compressing the cells in the middle. Working case hardened wood can be a lesson in the forces of nature since it will warp, cup and twist when cut. I've heard of one process where they microwave the wood to break down the cell structure and then put it under a lot of pressure to force out moisture like squeezing a sponge. Apparently they can turn a round stick into a square piece of lumber without cutting. I don't think this is what they're doing though.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Shudder @ the word casehardened......been there....

I dug a bit this morning. The wood is actually called Torrefied. It's a step after the usual kiln process. It is then basically put in an autoclave with low oxygen. I think it was originally developed for proccesing wood pellets 

http://www.torrefactionplus.ca/torrefied-wood.php#procede





hummingway said:


> Pretty guitars.
> 
> They must have a system to avoid case hardening the timber, which is what usually occurs when you kiln at higher temperatures. The outside cells of the wood dry quickly locking moisture inside and compressing the cells in the middle. Working case hardened wood can be a lesson in the forces of nature since it will warp, cup and twist when cut. I've heard of one process where they microwave the wood to break down the cell structure and then put it under a lot of pressure to force out moisture like squeezing a sponge. Apparently they can turn a round stick into a square piece of lumber without cutting. I don't think this is what they're doing though.


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## cwittler (May 17, 2011)

Perhaps I am mistaken, but I understood the process for curing wood for musical purposes is more about trying to preserve the cell structure. In other words, wicking the moisture from the cell without collapsing the cell structure so that it hardens into a microscopic resonant chamber. I remember reading one of the problems with rapid heating, such as in a kiln, was the damage it caused to the cell structure. In other words, the curing process is more than just drying the wood, it is drying the wood in a manner that preserves resonance. 

So are guitar companies and luthiers ordering "torrefied" wood but still having to tap test it for sonic quality? Is all the "torrefied" wood being delivered more musical or just more stable? Not trying to split hairs here, but it seems to me that the torrefication process has more to do with stability than musicality. Or is musicality one of the happy accidents that occurred as a by-product of torrefication? Just throwing it out there for discussion.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

@cwittler........I doubt if there is any use of this stuff on acoustic or hollowbody guitars ie " tap testing tops" It's the stability that they are looking for especially necks. I can see a few advantages. Cool colour ( no amber dyes to age ) and being that dry would an 8% mc piece of wood absorbing back up to 12% in a damp time of year. If the piece is lower than gives you some more time to work or not work with the piece. 

Don't forget that there is an extra marketing edge going on here. This process was not developed by musicians I am sure if regular kilned wood didn't work Fender would have stopped using long ago.


I just found this claim on a flooring site 
"• Dimensional stability: Torrefied wood will not shrink, swell or warp with changing weather and moisture conditions. It is therefore ideal for precision applications such as furniture, doors and windows."


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## Loudguitars.com (Jan 29, 2011)

NGroeneveld said:


> That won't be necessary lol. I didn't mean to offend you, but I guess sometimes I tend to shoot from the lip. Having used baked maple myself, I'm familiar with it. I think it's good stuff, great for necks and fretboards, looks great and feels great too. Hope you sell lots of it. All the best in your endeavours.


No offence taken, we are not selling any of this stuff just helping a local guy out. They really do feel amazing and very resonant.
Thanks


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## Loudguitars.com (Jan 29, 2011)

shoretyus said:


> @cwittler........I doubt if there is any use of this stuff on acoustic or hollowbody guitars ie " tap testing tops" It's the stability that they are looking for especially necks. I can see a few advantages. Cool colour ( no amber dyes to age ) and being that dry would an 8% mc piece of wood absorbing back up to 12% in a damp time of year. If the piece is lower than gives you some more time to work or not work with the piece.
> 
> Don't forget that there is an extra marketing edge going on here. This process was not developed by musicians I am sure if regular kilned wood didn't work Fender would have stopped using long ago.
> 
> ...


Well few things:

I tried 2 prototypes of the acoustics and all I can say is unbelievable tone qualities. Video soon.

Re-absorbtion is so very temporary and it requires the wood to be directly exposed to moisture for a long period, the pieces used are selected as guitar stock and already dried. When it comes time to shape them they retain .4 to .6%.

Marketing: well yes but not unreasonable pricing for a alternative, it is nice to have choices and these pieces are definatly choice.

*"• Dimensional stability: Torrefied wood will not shrink, swell or warp with changing weather and moisture conditions. It is therefore ideal for precision applications such as furniture, doors and windows."


Well there you have it:* Why would a floor company venture into the ultra precision of guitar building, it states very clearly will not shrink, swell or warp with changing weather and moisture conditions. Especially ideal for an acoustic.

The Two guys involved with Coaltone have dedicated years of their lives and are both Musicians and enthusiasts.

Peace.


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## Loudguitars.com (Jan 29, 2011)

cwittler said:


> Perhaps I am mistaken, but I understood the process for curing wood for musical purposes is more about trying to preserve the cell structure. In other words, wicking the moisture from the cell without collapsing the cell structure so that it hardens into a microscopic resonant chamber. I remember reading one of the problems with rapid heating, such as in a kiln, was the damage it caused to the cell structure. In other words, the curing process is more than just drying the wood, it is drying the wood in a manner that preserves resonance.
> 
> So are guitar companies and luthiers ordering "torrefied" wood but still having to tap test it for sonic quality? Is all the "torrefied" wood being delivered more musical or just more stable? Not trying to split hairs here, but it seems to me that the torrefication process has more to do with stability than musicality. Or is musicality one of the happy accidents that occurred as a by-product of torrefication? Just throwing it out there for discussion.


I discussed that with Mike actually and his answer was that it "was" a happy accident that there was evidently more resonance and snap at least with the maple. It was Guthrie Govan who further convinced me that there was a difference in tone and in his case the choice was completely based on travelling with one guitar and needing stability.

The big guy's will start using this at an up charge, perhaps in custom shop models to start.

Some of the know Boutique guys are already using it; Suhr being one of them.

Peace


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I found "cooked maple" at a wood store in Washington a few years back. I had no idea what it was, bought some just because it was "something different".
Ended up making a strat body out of it. Oops. 
I'll be going back for more and this time I'll be using it for necks.


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## Nick Burman (Aug 17, 2011)

I can't imagine there being much oxygen in any heated, sealed area. So is this something that could be done, even to a lesser degree, in any oven or kiln? How much of a secret process is this?


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Nick Burman said:


> I can't imagine there being much oxygen in any heated, sealed area. So is this something that could be done, even to a lesser degree, in any oven or kiln? How much of a secret process is this?


Probably not too secret... just expensive for that autoclave. Kilning lumber is kind of an art though...which is still the beginning process.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

As long as it goes with a good marinara sauce and some grated romano, I'd be happy.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

shoretyus said:


> Probably not too secret... just expensive for that autoclave. Kilning lumber is kind of an art though...which is still the beginning process.


That quick read over that I did suggests that what happens is the natural oils/resins will set in a sealed environment in a manner like a ceramic. Materials Science is an interesting science; tells us things like how a car in a collision behaves like a fluid and how a body in collision behaves as a solid.


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## Nick Burman (Aug 17, 2011)

I'm aware that most industrial processes can be duplicated in a home environment. I was thinking of a high school science experiment type of setup. What sort of temperatures might be involved?


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

What was the stated? 300 or 350F? I would use argon or co2 as any welding shop supply has them easy peasy. I wonder if there is a barometric pressure factor involved, say half atmos or one and a half atmos.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

10 little characters



> The technology consists of heating the wood at a very high temperature (*from 190 to 240°C*), in a torrefaction kiln (autoclave) at controlled atmosphere and low in oxygen. The length of the process, as well as the temperature degree sustained during a determined period, depends on the torrefied specie and the desired colour.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

I wanted to read the article...but that site is quite a mess..and really not use friendly...way to much avdertising...i have NO idea what the site is about!...is it commercial?...just reviews?...for sales?!...


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

To summarize you kiln dry the wood in the traditional manner to %6 MC then in a low oxygen, high heat environment take it to 0% then cool the kiln with steam until the wood is between 3 and 6% again. Even heat distribution and air movement would be important plus some way to control the oxygen content. Argon would probably be effective for that.


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## Loudguitars.com (Jan 29, 2011)

*Site*



al3d said:


> I wanted to read the article...but that site is quite a mess..and really not use friendly...way to much avdertising...i have NO idea what the site is about!...is it commercial?...just reviews?...for sales?!...


Odd as the link takes you right to the story

WOW, the site covers many bases actually. Interviews, reviews, gear, concert footage, lessons, Charity, give-aways, podcasts, columns.....
and only 6 months old at that......

We would truly love for you to explain how to clean up the mess?

The three ad banners are donated to friends of the Loud Family who have donated to the Charity builds or our Charity Events.... not a single one is a paid ad and there are no commercials.

Sounds to me like there is a bit of slamming happening here. 

Loud is a proud PAID Premium member of this site, I truly love this forum and it is my "go to" for real peoples opinions, which is what they are, opinions.

We do not Spam, we try to share stories or coolness, we are not in competition as we are not a forum and we do not report other sites articles nor debate them with our users.

Back to the topic.
Peace


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## suhr (Mar 19, 2007)

Nick Burman said:


> I can't imagine there being much oxygen in any heated, sealed area. So is this something that could be done, even to a lesser degree, in any oven or kiln? How much of a secret process is this?


It is patented and isn't about just cooking the wood.
It is a very controlled environment as some moisture is actually injected back in.
There is really no way to do it without buying a Kiln that has the ability to prevent combustion. It isn't cheap.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

suhr said:


> It is patented and isn't about just cooking the wood.
> It is a very controlled environment as some moisture is actually injected back in.
> There is really no way to do it without buying a Kiln that has the ability to prevent combustion. It isn't cheap.


I can see that. Your roasted wood options are $550-850. Yes, not cheap.


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## Nick Burman (Aug 17, 2011)

And a word for the other experimenters, blowtorches, gasoline and microwaves don't work. Ask my insurance adjuster.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Nick Burman said:


> And a word for the other experimenters, blowtorches, gasoline and microwaves don't work. Ask my insurance adjuster.


 
So, what about an 8 inch double walled woodstove chimney pipe, with a 4 inch cut in half down the middle length covering a dryer heater coil? Mounts and guides over the counter for dryers should work fine. Seal the ends, blow it full of CO2 (same way low-e windows are evacuated of air) and turn on the heat?


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

keeperofthegood said:


> So, what about an 8 inch double walled woodstove chimney pipe, with a 4 inch cut in half down the middle length covering a dryer heater coil? Mounts and guides over the counter for dryers should work fine. Seal the ends, blow it full of CO2 (same way low-e windows are evacuated of air) and turn on the heat?


I presume you'd be starting with wood that is already kiln dried? You wouldn't want to do the initial kilning this way. 

One of the issues when kilning wood is to keep air movement and equal temperature. I suspect the cooking process works better when the same concerns are addressed. I would be inclined to make something a little bigger so you can have insulation, a fan, a moisture meter, and a temperature sensor controlling the heat source.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

I figure the cooked wood is a secondary process from kiln drying yes. Stove pipe come in 1, 2 or 3 wall. With draft venting or not, single or double insulated (depending on venting). I don't know if it available over 8 inches diameter been a few years since the Mrs and I seriously looked into getting a bot belly stove.

double walled (inside, rock wool, outside)


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