# How does Long & McQuade sleep at night?



## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

You know...
If a store could sleep.

Now that I’m back in the office, I’ve made a habit of popping into the local L&M on the way home from work every couple days, just to see if there’s any used deals. Yesterday, I spotted something that fit the bill for my 14 year old who’s getting into *METAL* and needs a “shredder” guitar. I found a used (barely) Ibanez RG350DX for $449. Not a screaming deal but better than $849 new.

While I was paying, the salesman mentioned that it was one of two guitars they got from one guy earlier that day. He said the other was a 2005 Fender American Deluxe Stratocaster. I said I had just sold my American Pro a few days ago so I likely wouldn’t be interested. He says “Oh, it’s already gone. The first guy that saw it bought it. It was $899.”

WTF?!?!

So based on their “70% of what we sell it for” they had a guy walk in with a mint USA Deluxe Strat with molded hard case and they gave him $629 for it.
I know no one was putting a gun to the guy’s head but that’s damn near criminal.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

He might have got $720 (80%) if he bought a higher priced item. Or he got $629 worth of crack.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

BlueRocker said:


> ...if he bought a higher priced item.


You mean like a bottom of the line MIM Strat for 1100 bucks?


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

A few years ago I brought in a beauty lefty American Standard Strat. They offered me something so ridiculously low that I didn’t t even have to think about it. I don’t recall the exact number but they offered me something like 300-400 when used AS Strats were going for 900-1000. I’ve never brought another guitar in for them to even look at.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

To quote the words of Rainer Wolfcastle when the same question was posed to him

"On top of a pile of money with many beautiful ladies"


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## Alan Small (Dec 30, 2019)

Mark Brown said:


> To quote the words of Rainer Wolfcastle when the same question was posed to him
> 
> "On top of a pile of money with many beautiful ladies"


I dont know who that is, but..it sounds right😜


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

JBFairthorne said:


> A few years ago I brought in a beauty lefty American Standard Strat. They offered me something so ridiculously low that I didn’t t even have to think about it. I don’t recall the exact number but they offered me something like 300-400 when used AS Strats were going for 900-1000. I’ve never brought another guitar in for them to even look at.


I know exactly how they justify it...

Me: Hi, I’d like to trade in this 2005 American Deluxe Strat.
L&M: Sure. According to out computer, that guitar was $1299 new 17 years ago. Therefore, $899 is the used price. We’ll give you 70% or $629.
Me: Well, the math checks out. I’ll take it!!


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

I think it goes all the way back to the 5th or 6th season of the Simpsons, Rainer is basically their version of Arnold Schwarzenegger and he is being interviewed by John Lovitz who plays "Jay Sherman, Film critic" from the short lived 90's animated show "The Critic"

I might not know a lot about guitars, but I got my Simpsons in order 



Alan Small said:


> I dont know who that is, but..it sounds right😜


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

2manyGuitars said:


> You know...
> If a store could sleep.
> 
> Now that I’m back in the office, I’ve made a habit of popping into the local L&M on the way home from work every couple days, just to see if there’s any used deals. Yesterday, I spotted something that fit the bill for my 14 year old who’s getting into *METAL* and needs a “shredder” guitar. I found a used (barely) Ibanez RG350DX for $449. Not a screaming deal but better than $849 new.
> ...


So better to pay the guy $899 and then what? Try to sell it for $1279? Then people would say "I can't believe what L&M are asking for a used US Strat those bastards!"


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## Pedro-x (Mar 7, 2015)

It’s because they base it off what they sold it for in 2005 not based on the cost of a new American ultra equivalent. I think there are great used deals to be had at L&m for buyers, but timing is everything. Dude probably didn’t want to deal with Kijiji


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Pedro-x said:


> It’s because they base it off what they sold it for in 2005 not based on the cost of a new American ultra equivalent. I think there are great used deals to be had at L&m for buyers, but timing is everything. Dude probably didn’t want to deal with Kijiji


No proof needed there. No one takes their guitar to a retailer and expects to get top dollar. A guaranteed sale, sure, but not top price.


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## Robhotdad (Oct 27, 2016)

When you check Reverb, Kijiji or Ebay the prices on used guitars for instance, reflect the seller's urgency to liquidate his goods. If someone buys a Fender Strat for $1600 and expects to sell it five years later for what he paid, he has the right to do so and as a buyer I can accept that or pay the a bit more and purchase new. L & M on the other hand are not you and I. They would never buy any used instrument without expecting to make a profit. That's business . 30 points has been historically the bare minimum you need to make to see another day, historically. They have salaries, taxes, upkeep the private guy doesn't have. They don't sleep that well, not because of their business dealings, but because they're isn't much money in guitar sales. One sales guy from that outfit once told me that his shop survived mainly because of PA sales and rentals. If the current market conditions continue, we are going to see a real softening in used guitar prices. It's already started. Inflation, fuel prices, and the coming recession are going to make for some desperate sellers. Mortgages, come first.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

I recently dumped a pile of gear at L&M that I just didn't want to be bothered trying to sell. I didn't need the money so much as I needed it to be gone.


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## pspguitar (Jan 21, 2021)

Remember L&M charges taxes on all their gear, be it used or new. So add taxes and you get into an area where others may have a guitar or pedal listed.

Disappointing when I find a screaming deal from somewhere...then only to add 12% on top ... sigh.

Love when I find a screaming deal...and no taxes...haha...cash is king!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

the flip side is people thinking l&m doesnt have deals ever and is only out for top dollar. 

If they used kijiji to price used gear you would collectively go into conniptions


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Budda said:


> the flip side is people thinking l&m doesnt have deals ever and is only out for top dollar.
> 
> If they used kijiji to price used gear you would collectively go into conniptions


I go into L&M once a week like clockwork because I know, somewhere out there, the deal for me is just waiting.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Mark Brown said:


> I go into L&M once a week like clockwork because I know, somewhere out there, the deal for me is just waiting.


If you were a parrot you would have plucked out all your feathers.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

player99 said:


> If you were a parrot you would have plucked out all your feathers.


I do not follow you....


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

We all know the deal going in with L&M. I got a great deal on a used Line 6 Helix not too long ago and I’ve also taken full advantage of their 0% interest offers to acquire some amazing guitars and other gear. Overall, I’m happy with my interactions with L&M on Bloor St in Toronto, which is my primary location. They used to have a really great guy in guitars who knew me by name and always had cool guitars to show me when I stopped in. What a good guy. Sadly, cancer took him way before his time.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

It is not my favorite store, but seeing as it is the only one within a 100km radius of where I have been working, it is where I go for the here and now. Addicts cannot be afforded the luxury of choice.


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## MarkM (May 23, 2019)

Mark Brown said:


> I do not follow you....


I don’t either?


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## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

I was looking to sell a near mint Gibson 2011 SG Standard last Fall, LM Kanata offered me $530 for it. I was more impressed the sales person was able to do It with a straight face, than I was that they had the balls to offer that much.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Mark Brown said:


> I do not follow you....





MarkM said:


> I don’t either?


Joking about being neurotic waiting and watching L & M for deals. When parrots are stressed they will start plucking their feathers out and they don't grow back so they are these crazy birds with no feathers.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

player99 said:


> Joking about being neurotic waiting and watching L & M for deals. When parrots are stressed they will start plucking their feathers out and they don't grow back so they are these crazy birds with no feathers.


Oh sweet merciful God what is that?

I promise I will never set foot in L&M again, just please let me unsee that!


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Seems like Cosmo has been plucking its feathers out. They have one Gibson electric in stock and 10 days ago they had about 18 Gibson electrics many of which were $9000 custom shop LPs. Where the hell did those all go all of a sudden. Maybe climate change had something to do with it.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Wardo said:


> Seems like Cosmo has been plucking its feathers out. They have one Gibson electric in stock and 10 days ago they had about 18 Gibson electrics many of which were $9000 custom shop LPs. Where the hell did those all go all of a sudden. Maybe climate change I had something to do with it.


Tax return season?


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

They have one dot 335 vintage burst. Someone needs to buy it… lol


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

I have come to the conclusion that electric guitars do grow on trees. Guess that is why there are so many pickers out there.


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## elburnando (11 mo ago)

I find L&M will also play with the numbers so they give you a 70% offer rather than 80%, which they offer if you buy something for more than double the price theyll sale your trade guitar for. Like they'll say "we'd sell that for $1050, and your new guitar is $2000, so you get $735 credit". If they said they'd resell it for $1000, you would have gotten $800 credit. Also, some guys are dicks there and just want to make a name for themselves.


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## Brian Johnston (Feb 24, 2019)

I can sell stuff on Kijiji for 50% retail all day long (and that's before taxes). I'm still sitting on stuff that's been here for nearly a year. And my stuff is near mint (I may have done a review on something and not use it after).


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## DavidChandross (10 mo ago)

jdto said:


> We all know the deal going in with L&M. I got a great deal on a used Line 6 Helix not too long ago and I’ve also taken full advantage of their 0% interest offers to acquire some amazing guitars and other gear. Overall, I’m happy with my interactions with L&M on Bloor St in Toronto, which is my primary location. They used to have a really great guy in guitars who knew me by name and always had cool guitars to show me when I stopped in. What a good guy. Sadly, cancer took him way before his time.


RIP Yuli Bohnet


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## DavidChandross (10 mo ago)

L and M have always been good to me. I do not have fear when I buy a guitar, I know they will take it back. Private sales are hell. Last one I did, bought a Fender Strat from a Kijiji dude. Found out later it was a bunch of parts from stolen guitars. L and M let you pay over time offering financing to musicians who otherwise can not get bank loans. They offer a fair price for used gear given they have to sell it and it sucks up inventory space. Their business model works, they make money off every return. In exchange, they accept all returns, no questions asked with deduction from the price based on what it would cost to rent. I dealt once with the 12th Fret. Unfriendly, even arrogant. No returns. Was shut during COVD making it hard to even view gear. Worse with something like St. Johns Music in Leaside, 7 days to return or you own it forever. L and M have great techs and managers. They always try to help.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

elburnando said:


> I find L&M will also play with the numbers so they give you a 70% offer rather than 80%, which they offer if you buy something for more than double the price theyll sale your trade guitar for. Like they'll say "we'd sell that for $1050, and your new guitar is $2000, so you get $735 credit". If they said they'd resell it for $1000, you would have gotten $800 credit. Also, some guys are dicks there and just want to make a name for themselves.


They dont get commission so “make a name for themselves” doesnt add up.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

I actually don't see much of an issue here either. I believe L&M sleeps well at night even with this deal. No one put a gun to the head of anyone here. This guitar eventually found a good home (or possibly another hawk).

And as mentioned, buying or selling to the public can sometimes be an icky (and long term) affair, some people hate it even if they know they can make a few hundred more. Meanwhile, L&M is right there and will pay you cash immediately for that unwanted plank of wood.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

DavidChandross said:


> L and M have always been good to me. I do not have fear when I buy a guitar, I know they will take it back. Private sales are hell. Last one I did, bought a Fender Strat from a Kijiji dude. Found out later it was a bunch of parts from stolen guitars. L and M let you pay over time offering financing to musicians who otherwise can not get bank loans. They offer a fair price for used gear given they have to sell it and it sucks up inventory space. Their business model works, they make money off every return. In exchange, they accept all returns, no questions asked with deduction from the price based on what it would cost to rent. I dealt once with the 12th Fret. Unfriendly, even arrogant. No returns. Was shut during COVD making it hard to even view gear. Worse with something like St. Johns Music in Leaside, 7 days to return or you own it forever. L and M have great techs and managers. They always try to help.


L&M will charge you a 40% restocking (or more) fee after 9 days if you are financing. I think it’s 20% after 5 days.

If you pay cash, you can own anything for 29 days and return it for a complete refund. That is why I have remained a customer. But as far as trade ins and trying to return a financed item, they are sociopaths lol.

Also, people should confirm that the discounted item they are getting isn’t a “rental”. That 2017 Am Pro could be a rental and when you sell it on kijiji and the new buyer takes it in to find out why the neck is wanted permanently, the serial will reveal what you paid and how long it was a rental. Which is a lot different than someone buying and not playing it for 6 months and eating the more than 40% restocking or trade in fee.

But what I will say is that 70% 20-30% more than what people will get on kijiji for most things if their intention is to sell without waiting for that 1 in 6 million buyer on kijiji who really wants what you are selling.

I prefer kijiji over everything because I don’t expect more than 50% on a mass produced item.


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## leftysg (Mar 29, 2008)

Well at least you saved on the Ibanez.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

My only problem with L&M's used pricing is how wildly inconsistent it is.

Here's an example. A month or 2 back I walk in and they have a used Blues Driver for $100 bucks. Not a screaming deal, but certainly a fair price for a BD-2 in like new condition, less box, given that the pedal sells for $170 new. A few weeks later, maybe the very next week, I walk on and they have another like new, no box BD-2. This time around they've got it tagged at $160. Some dude was wondering why there was basically no discount and it was explained to him "Well, this is basically a new pedal. The discount is because the box is missing."

Pricing trade ins based on original sales price isn't a crime. It lets them flip their used hear quickly and let's degenerates like us occasionally scoop deals. But to then turn around and price their own hear not on what they typically sell it for used, but based on its new price is a little silly.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

Yeah, I honestly don't see what the problem is here. Someone brought 2 guitars in, one of which the OP gladly snatched up at a little over 50% of new. The other guitar was snatched up by someone who also gladly paid L&M's asking price (which was probably less than they could find the same item on the private market). I count 3 people, including the OP, who took the deal L&M put in front of them so...where's the crime?


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Here’s a thread from just after the first COVID reopening. There’s some input from former L&M employees as well as experiences from several other members but to sum up the main story…


Go into local L&M on my kid’s lesson night.
Overheard a guy telling employee he wants to trade in a US made Blues Jr.
As he goes to his car to get it, I follow him out and tell him if they make him a stupid offer, sell it to me.
See him show the amp to the employee, take it off the counter and place it on the floor, buys his other item and leaves with both.
Follow him out, ask him what the offer was, and he said he didn’t even get that far because employee says “according to the system, we sell those for $299” (so their offer would have been $209).
He says all he needs for the amp is $350. I tell him that’s still cheap but that’s what I buy it for.
Exactly one week later, I walk into the same L&M for my kid’s lesson and happen to see a used Blues Jr. for $499 (with a photo to prove it).









Not today L&M... Not today.


Brought my daughter for her lesson tonight and as were waiting, looking at the wall of guitars, I overhear a guy looking for a powered speaker for his new modeling setup. He asks if they take trades and mentions he has a US made Blues Jr. he no longer needs. “It’s in the car. I’ll go grab it.”...




www.guitarscanada.com


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## PTO (12 mo ago)

I took a couple things to trade the other day, and the prices they offered were better than I expected so I just ended up selling one straight up and putting the other towards a purchase.

They won’t match the theoretical great deal on used gear but the ease and immediacy of transaction is worth it on smaller items IMO. And I say this as someone who’s had good experience selling on Kijiji. If I were selling a nice guitar or a whole pedal collection, it would be worth it to take the extra time.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

PTO said:


> I took a couple things to trade the other day, and the prices they offered were better than I expected so I just ended up selling one straight up and putting the other towards a purchase.
> 
> They won’t match the theoretical great deal on used gear but the ease and immediacy of transaction is worth it on smaller items IMO. And I say this as someone who’s had good experience selling on Kijiji. If I were selling a nice guitar or a whole pedal collection, it would be worth it to take the extra time.


Good point by you.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Thanks for making this thread @2manyGuitars this reminds me I haven't been in to L&M for a while.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

And don’t get me wrong. I said right in post number one, nobody put a gun to this guy’s head. Also, sometimes people get fair deals trading stuff in. I’m not suggesting that L&M is 100% evil. But…

There are clearly some shenanigans that do go on at some locations or with some employees.


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## Destracted (Aug 20, 2021)

2manyGuitars said:


> You know...
> If a store could sleep.
> 
> Now that I’m back in the office, I’ve made a habit of popping into the local L&M on the way home from work every couple days, just to see if there’s any used deals. Yesterday, I spotted something that fit the bill for my 14 year old who’s getting into *METAL* and needs a “shredder” guitar. I found a used (barely) Ibanez RG350DX for $449. Not a screaming deal but better than $849 new.
> ...


Its not like they inflated the price. If they had paid $629 and sold it for the $1500 it would sell for on Reverb that might be something to question. Theres nothing wrong with giving good deals on used gear. Also, you didnt seem to ask about condition, maybe it was another lousy orbital sander home relic.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Destracted said:


> Also, you didnt seem to ask about condition, maybe it was another lousy orbital sander home relic.


He said it was mint.


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## 5732 (Jul 30, 2009)

My experience has varied but has mostly been positive.

I once bought a used Traynor YCV50 for $400, used it for 3 years, then traded it in on something else and received $450 credit.

Last week I bought a gently used Yamaha LL16M with case for $599 and the cheapest I could find online was in the $700-$1000 range. Right beside it was a used standard LL16 that didn't play as well and no case for $799.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

"Canadian" culture has no idea how to bargain. Buying, selling, trading used gear is a bargaining process where both sides try to get an advantage. There is nothing wrong with that. If you are buying and the price is too high don't buy it. If you are selling and the offer is too low don't sell it. The price is not determined totally by the value of the item. It is determined by the value that the buyer and seller perceive. I have got some incredibly good deals on used gear at L&M and I have seen some ridiculously high prices for used gear. The good deals have usually come when I'm in the store while they take a trade.I have only traded in one guitar. I knew the price would be lower than what I could get if I sold it privately but it was a guitar that might take a long time to sell privately. I was buying a new bass and went in with a price in mind, $100 less than I was going to ask privately. I was pleasantly surprised when they offered me $50 more than that. This was on an Epiphone Thunderbird bass which I was going to ask $450 and accept $400 privately. I would have accepted $300 as a trade in. They gave me $350. I don't care what they sold it for. That is irrelevant to my deal. Once I sold it, it is theirs to do with as they wish.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I dunno - I think $899 is a great deal on a 2005 Fender Am Dlx Strat. Am I missing something?


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Kerry Brown said:


> "Canadian" culture has no idea how to bargain. Buying, selling, trading used gear is a bargaining process where both sides try to get an advantage. There is nothing wrong with that. If you are buying and the price is too high don't buy it. If you are selling and the offer is too low don't sell it. The price is not determined totally by the value of the item. It is determined by the value that the buyer and seller perceive. I have got some incredibly good deals on used gear at L&M and I have seen some ridiculously high prices for used gear. The good deals have usually come when I'm in the store while they take a trade.I have only traded in one guitar. I knew the price would be lower than what I could get if I sold it privately but it was a guitar that might take a long time to sell privately. I was buying a new bass and went in with a price in mind, $100 less than I was going to ask privately. I was pleasantly surprised when they offered me $50 more than that. This was on an Epiphone Thunderbird bass which I was going to ask $450 and accept $400 privately. I would have accepted $300 as a trade in. They gave me $350. I don't care what they sold it for. That is irrelevant to my deal. Once I sold it, it is theirs to do with as they wish.


I also think that sometimes L&M forgets that they're in the sales business when they take trade ins. The markup on guitars is higher than it is on other products that businesses will negotiate on.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Mark Brown said:


> To quote the words of Rainer Wolfcastle when the same question was posed to him
> 
> "On top of a pile of money with many beautiful ladies"







WRT L&M, I have done well there. Do I agree with all of their prices? No. But, when I do, I do well  

I have had better luck on Kijiji, but I have had to jump on the "narrowly focused towards me" no-brainers when I find them.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

allthumbs56 said:


> I dunno - I think $899 is a great deal on a 2005 Fender Am Dlx Strat. Am I missing something?


This issue is the markup, Chris. But I agree with you, that's a great deal (depending on if it's a good player or not).

Not only that, but I could probably never get a deal like that from our 2 or 3 local L&Ms. But w/ a recession looming, there should be some great deals soon.


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## Xevyn (Jul 14, 2021)

Their prices seem to really vary from store to store. Right now I'd say that their used prices are more of an advantage for buyers then the sellers. 
Those who are trading in right now won't get the same prices that they can on Kijiji or Reverb. But those buying used can get some really good deals...I've been lucky to grab the following in the last few months:

-Squier Showmaster $190 (sells for about $300+ right now on Reverb or Kijiji)
-PRS CE 24 Semi-hollow brand new (with finish flaws) $1899 ($2899-3199 brand new)
-2016 Gibson LP Traditional $1799 (haven't seen a Traditional on Kijiji or Reverb for less than $2300)


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

allthumbs56 said:


> I dunno - I think $899 is a great deal on a 2005 Fender Am Dlx Strat. Am I missing something?


The point is that may be a $1500 guitar on kijiji.

Every opinion I’ve seen on here so far is 100% correct, both pro and con. I just think that for a national chain, their trade in/appraisal process is pretty “loosey goosey” and varies _insanely_ depending on who you happen to be dealing with.

Let’s use the Fender Blues Jr as an example. A new one sells for $960 plus tax. I’m sure they’ve had many go through their system in the 32 year history of that model.

One employee will look it up, see 50 previous transactions, pick the lowest and tell you “$299 is what these sell for used” and offer you $209. Never mind that that particular sale was from 20 years ago. And BTW, that actually happened about a year ago.

Another one will see that that exact amp sold new in 2014 for $699. They’ll list it at $499 so will offer $350.

Come back after lunch and show that same amp to a third guy. He’ll see that new ones are $960 and that in the past 6 months, they’ve sold a half-dozen used ones in the $699 range. Since yours is mint and you’re trading it for a Les Paul, he’ll give you $560 in trade.

These scenarios actually happen and there needs to be more consistency with how trade ins are handled. They do a LOT of them so the way it’s handled on any particular day shouldn’t be subject to the whims of some part-time high-schooler with green hair and a javelin through his eyebrow. A national chain needs to do better.


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## Xevyn (Jul 14, 2021)

2manyGuitars said:


> The point is that may be a $1500 guitar on kijiji.
> 
> Every opinion I’ve seen on here so far is 100% correct, both pro and con. I just think that for a national chain, their trade in/appraisal process is pretty “loosey goosey” and varies _insanely_ depending on who you happen to be dealing with.
> 
> ...


Yup, it would be great if there was more consistency. Not sure if all stores do it this way but the way my local store has done it has been pretty consistent:


They look it up in their system and give me the low and high range for what I'm trading in
I bring in my gear and then they have 2-3 guys appraise it
Then they discuss their reasons for their number and come up with a final number and mark it in my file
I keep really good care of my gear so I tend to get closer to the higher number. But I will also try to sell it privately first and if no one gives me more than $50 of what L&M will give me then I just trade it in to the store


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## Jalexander (Dec 31, 2020)

gtrguy said:


> So better to pay the guy $899 and then what? Try to sell it for $1279? Then people would say "I can't believe what L&M are asking for a used US Strat those bastards!"


Exactly. I really don’t see the problem here. They offered a price that would allow them to sell it for the necessary return. And the seller can take it elsewhere if they want. Meanwhile, it makes for the kind of deal on the rack that brings customers in.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

I remember my mom being bent out of shape because she traded her car in, Nd a week later the dealer had it up for more money. I said to her "they do have to make money on it. It's not a charity."

Same thing here. Basically it's like consignment in some ways: they sell it, and take their cut.

I should add that Kijiji advertised prices are not necessarily what something sold for.


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## Wucan (Apr 30, 2021)

L&M has a consistent way to assess used prices, which leads to inconsistencies and the "house" winning. The fundamental here is that they want to move used gear within 90 days so it doesn't clutter the store, and if they can't move it they can at least make money off it as a rental instrument.

What most staff will do is look up your guitar's serial or model number, check if they sold the model before whether as new or used, and make an offer based on these figures. Of course, this advantages the store greatly because of inflation. A 2010 Gibson Standard SG sold for $1000 used 10 years ago? They will offer $700 for yours today. Your limited time tube amp sold for $400 at retail back then? They'll offer you $200 even though it might be worth several times that on the secondary market.

On the other hand, if you have something that clearly has value but L&M hasn't sold the specific guitar, that's when the pricing will be up to the local manager's discretion. I've seen people trade in stuff that's normally slow to move like Kiesels or limited Music Mans for pretty good prices. But others might lowball you horribly - either because they don't know what they're looking at, or because they believe they can't move the guitar in a reasonable timeframe.


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## Destracted (Aug 20, 2021)

2manyGuitars said:


> The point is that may be a $1500 guitar on kijiji.


The real crime is If you saw a decent shape Deluxe strat for any where under $1000 and didnt buy it.

Forget Kijiji:


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Destracted said:


> The real crime is If you saw a decent shape Deluxe strat for any where under $1000 and didnt buy it.
> 
> Forget Kijiji:
> View attachment 419349


And that’s what I’m getting at. You can’t tell me that since 2005, L&M hasn’t sold an American Deluxe Strat for more than $899. I bet even if they threw it up on Gear Hunter for $1299, it wouldn’t have lasted 72 hours. Even though they did actually list it at $899, to cherry pick a ridiculously low price like that is kinda skeevy.

They could have easily given the guy 70% of $1299 and sold that thing the same day.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I feel like nobody has mentioned that rentals get sold as used gear and thats a big part of varying prices. $10 off new price? Rental. Half off? Heavy rental or trade in.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

I feel like you'll appreciate this little tale @2manyGuitars

A couple years back I bought a pedal I simply could not get a long with, but I bought it new out of the stars for a smoking deal. I went in to L&M and wanted to trade it in on a different pedal they had on stock. The new pedal was $250, they were selling my pedal new for $270. I figured they'd try to sell my brand new condition pedal for 75-90% of what a new one sells for based on what I see their other used pedals typically marked as. I figure "If they offer me 70% of that 75-90% I'll gladly take the small hit to avoid having to sell it privately."

I take it in, counter guy marvels at what great shape it's in and remarks "Whoa, we just started getting these on stock. We haven't even put any used ones in the system." I'm thinking "This is a good sign." and he offers me........ $100. I'm like "Uh. I'll pass, thanks."


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Budda said:


> I feel like nobody has mentioned that rentals get sold as used gear and thats a big part of varying prices. $10 off new price? Rental. Half off? Heavy rental or trade in.


I remember looking at a Les Paul Modern Burgundy Sparkle that was a Demo (AKA returned). Had a few scuffs so not new. Was originally $3699 marked all the way down to $3659.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

2manyGuitars said:


> I remember looking at a Les Paul Modern Burgundy Sparkle that was a Demo (AKA returned). Had a few scuffs so not new. Was originally $3699 marked all the way down to $3659.


And in my experience being an eagle eye with a used guitar can get you a better discount .


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Budda said:


> And in my experience being an eagle eye with a used guitar can get you a better discount .


I have been able to get that out of them at least once. Especially with Fender where the year is nice and easy to read. "Hey, I noticed this imperceptible blemish." "Let me talk to the manager. Okay he says that's been here for 4 years how about 10% off?"


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Okay Player said:


> I have been able to get that out of them at least once. Especially with Fender where the year is nice and easy to read. "Hey, I noticed this imperceptible blemish." "Let me talk to the manager. Okay he says that's been here for 4 years how about 10% off?"


I was talking dings but yours works too.


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## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

If you're selling a guitar to a guitar store, you're essentially pawning it. I understand the outrage but what do you expect? 

Also, American Deluxe is an old model that (I assume) there's very low demand for. I had one in 2005 and I believe it cost under two grand with taxes. Based on the last time I played it, the newer American Fenders (and likely player series) smoke it. 

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk


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## Destracted (Aug 20, 2021)

I think the only thing not mentioned so far is how awesome these Deluxes are


FatStrat2 said:


> This issue is the markup, Chris. But I agree with you, that's a great deal (depending on if it's a good player or not).
> 
> Not only that, but I could probably never get a deal like that from our 2 or 3 local L&Ms. But w/ a recession looming, there should be some great deals soon.


The secret, and I really shouldnt be sharing this, is to frequent their Gear Hunter page. It updates in real time as stock is added. Ive seen stupid deals go up and disapear in minutes. The edmonton store in particular has crazy deals.
Recently Ive seen a mint Ernie Ball Majesty with HSC go for $2450 and mint Jackson King V with proper Jackson fit Hardcase for $495, I spent 5 minutes checking specs online and someone else nabbed it and it disapeared from my cart. Theres no record of sold items so when you check it out casually you miss all the good deals that popped up and sold. I check it more than Reverb.


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## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

I'll also again say that not all Long & McQuade stores are the same. The folks in Fredericton are an amazing group of people who I have full trust in. They've went out of their way to help me and my peers dozens, if not hundreds of times. I dislike these threads because they imply that you'll have the same experience at the Toronto Bloor L&M as you will in Grand Falls, New Brunswick.

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

TheGASisReal said:


> I dislike these threads because they imply that you'll have the same experience at the Toronto Bloor L&M as you will in Grand Falls, New Brunswick.


I’ve made it clear that this is not only different from store to store but employee to employee.

In fact, that’s kinda my point. They should have some sort of policy so it IS consistent chain wide.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Budda said:


> I was talking dings but yours works too.


To be clear, I don't mean lie and make up things that don't exist, but there are things that only someone looking, really, really, really hard is going to see.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

The real takeaway here is that you should stand outside an L&M and ask people as they enter if they’re planning on selling anything.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

…OR you could restrict your inquiry to those carrying items INTO the store. Unless, of course, you’re looking to have the cops called on you as some creepy guy accosting customers as they walk in. Lol.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

JBFairthorne said:


> …OR you could restrict your inquiry to those carrying items INTO the store. Unless, of course, you’re looking to have the cops called on you as some creepy guy accosting customers as they walk in. Lol.


You could be a gear scalper.

"Used guitars, used amps...who's buyin' who's sellin'."


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

JBFairthorne said:


> …OR you could restrict your inquiry to those carrying items INTO the store. Unless, of course, you’re looking to have the cops called on you as some creepy guy accosting customers as they walk in. Lol.


I could corner the market on “accostic guitars”.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

…imagine the customer base in jail. You’d make a killing. Not sure where you’d hide the guitars though.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

JBFairthorne said:


> …imagine the customer base in jail. You’d make a killing. Not sure where you’d hide the guitars though.


Yup. Imagine trying to get one of those pointy guitars into the old “prison wallet”.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Getting it in may be a whole lot easier than getting it out. Stick with rounded corners.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Lots of people say that Fender guitars are quite ergonomic. Bonus: a detachable bolt-on neck.

But passing gas with a tremolo/vibrato system installed... That'd be a little suspect.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

There is something terribly not right about you folks, I am not saying it is wrong but it just ain't right


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

You realize you’re part of “you folks” right?


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)




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## PTO (12 mo ago)

There’s an episode of the podcast The Truth About Recording & Mixing where Vancouver’s Steve Dawson talks favourably about L&M. Especially the ability to rent almost anything and return it to any location, which saved him on tours. They take a lot of flack for being the big chain but it was interesting hearing someone compare them to other big chains with an unfamiliar listener.


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## amp boy (Apr 23, 2009)

....how many times does an item need to have tax collected on it ?
ridiculous.


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## Destracted (Aug 20, 2021)

amp boy said:


> ....how many times does an item need to have tax collected on it ?
> ridiculous.


Don't be so cynical. The government needs to tax every single guitar sale so that it can continue to hire more people to explain why they need to raise your taxes.


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

Okay Player said:


> I feel like you'll appreciate this little tale @2manyGuitars
> 
> A couple years back I bought a pedal I simply could not get a long with, but I bought it new out of the stars for a smoking deal. I went in to L&M and wanted to trade it in on a different pedal they had on stock. The new pedal was $250, they were selling my pedal new for $270. I figured they'd try to sell my brand new condition pedal for 75-90% of what a new one sells for based on what I see their other used pedals typically marked as. I figure "If they offer me 70% of that 75-90% I'll gladly take the small hit to avoid having to sell it privately."
> 
> I take it in, counter guy marvels at what great shape it's in and remarks "Whoa, we just started getting these on stock. We haven't even put any used ones in the system." I'm thinking "This is a good sign." and he offers me........ $100. I'm like "Uh. I'll pass, thanks."


Reminds me when I sold my Revv D20, I called L&M and they offered me 600$… I sold it myself on Kijiji in about a week for 1100$.


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## hfisher3380 (Mar 5, 2006)

L&M is usually a rip-off for used stuff - especially when selling their rentals, where the thing is clearly used but they are trying to sell it for 5% off. And there is absolutely NO consistency from one place to the next. However, you can get lucky from time to time. I was looking for a small rack case (4-6 units) and there were hardly any in stock anywhere. Found a few used Gator rack cases but no online prices on the L&M website. Called the first store and they said “the thing has no price on it, it was probably a rental, it’s in decent shape, we might be able to take 5% off the new price”. Called the second place, they found the thing, saw it had a $50 price tag on it, and sold it to me for that. List price new is $379. So they gave me 87% off. Decent used condition (at least as good as most Kijiji items, and way cheaper) and even came with rack screws.

No rhyme or reason.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

They likely sleep better than Guitar Center ....


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## Archeonn (Sep 8, 2021)

I like L&M for the convenience and decent service, but they're all over the place with pricing. I basically only buy cheap items where it isn't worth paying shipping, or used things. Their expensive items (like custom shop range) are significantly higher than USA shops and they won't price match, not that I expect them to. 

I think the shops used prices are based on the manager or whoever is in charge of the counter. There is definitely a trend with certain locations having great deals for the buyer, and some locations I don't visit anymore because the used prices are way too high. Not sure if they're offering the trade in extra money, or they're just gouging the market. An employee told me that they have kept trade ins or marked down blemished guitars for themselves that never went out on the floor. I am sure some locations have employees flipping gear themselves or through keeping stuff for friends. It would explain why there is never anything good despite being a busy location. Additionally, some of the stores keep the well priced stuff hidden away until sales. I used to visit various L&Ms just to see if there is a bargain to snag, but now there is really little reason to go in.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

TheGASisReal said:


> ... I dislike these threads because they imply that you'll have the same experience at the Toronto Bloor L&M as you will in Grand Falls, New Brunswick...


Yes, this is something that players overlook. L&M isn't McDonald's, that's just not getting through to some folk.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

FatStrat2 said:


> Yes, this is something that players overlook. L&M isn't McDonald's, that's just not getting through to some folk.


You’re correct. It isn’t McDonald’s. They’re a franchise with individual owners who have a bit of a say over how each location is run. L&M is a chain with all stores operating under one command structure with one set of rules that apply to all locations.

...except for used stuff. Then it’s an “every employee for themselves” shit show.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Someone point me to these below MAP custom prices that arent sales.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

When it’s their _OWN_ gear...








For those of you that aren’t math geniuses, that’s a whopping 1.5% discount.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Are you crazy, that is a smoking deal. 1.6% off the sticker price will almost cover 50% of the interest cost for the first month!!!


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## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

Some


Archeonn said:


> I like L&M for the convenience and decent service, but they're all over the place with pricing. I basically only buy cheap items where it isn't worth paying shipping, or used things. Their expensive items (like custom shop range) are significantly higher than USA shops and they won't price match, not that I expect them to.
> 
> I think the shops used prices are based on the manager or whoever is in charge of the counter. There is definitely a trend with certain locations having great deals for the buyer, and some locations I don't visit anymore because the used prices are way too high. Not sure if they're offering the trade in extra money, or they're just gouging the market. An employee told me that they have kept trade ins or marked down blemished guitars for themselves that never went out on the floor. I am sure some locations have employees flipping gear themselves or through keeping stuff for friends. It would explain why there is never anything good despite being a busy location. Additionally, some of the stores keep the well priced stuff hidden away until sales. I used to visit various L&Ms just to see if there is a bargain to snag, but now there is really little reason to go in.


Someone told at my local LM that they don’t really put much stuff on gear hunter. I only ever see used pedals there and have Only seen used guitars during sales events, although I when I ask about them, they usually sayI missed a wicked deal last week lol.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

TL;DR
Like this?


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

jbealsmusic said:


> TL;DR
> Like this?


Gotta link the whole clip because I love me some Bill Burr.


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## Jim Soloway (Sep 27, 2013)

I lived in the US for 25 years where the equivalent is Guitar Center. I'll take L&M over Guitar Center every time. They pay real enough wages for people to make careers working there. They keep human hours so their workers get to live human lives. All of that takes profits and if they paid $629 and sold it for $899, they didn't exactly get rich on the deal. I don't see any problem in that at all.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

All of the guitar people at a given L&M location will discuss what they personally want. I imagine the same might likely be true for the drum people and the keys people, etc. When someone comes in to trade something one of them wants they will rape the guy asking for trade value even more than normal so the employee can get it for dirt cheap. That's not speculation. I heard that straight from the horse's mouth.


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## Jim Soloway (Sep 27, 2013)

BMW-KTM said:


> All of the guitar people at a given L&M location will discuss what they personally want. I imagine the same might likely be true for the drum people and the keys people, etc. When someone comes in to trade something one of them wants they will rape the guy asking for trade value even more than normal so the employee can get it for dirt cheap. That's not speculation. I heard that straight from the horse's mouth.


Rape implies force. No one is forced to sell anything to L&M. It's entirely voluntary with lots of alternatives available.


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## Archeonn (Sep 8, 2021)

Jim Soloway said:


> Rape implies force. No one is forced to sell anything to L&M. It's entirely voluntary with lots of alternatives available.


I once bought an amp that was priced super cheap. The staff at checkout said it was just brought in by a recently widowed woman. I don't think anyone was forced, but seems like taking advantage of people who don't know any better.


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## Jim Soloway (Sep 27, 2013)

Archeonn said:


> I once bought an amp that was priced super cheap. The staff at checkout said it was just brought in by a recently widowed woman. I don't think anyone was forced, but seems like taking advantage of people who don't know any better.


Really? With Reverb, Kijiji, Facebook Marketplace and endless local sales forums on FB, plus Google to tell you how much everything is worth, I think anyone who has even a passing intertest in knowing can find out what their stuff is worth and how to sell it in about five minutes. And for some reason I just don't believe that L&M is getting their entire used inventory from 90 year old widows who don't know how to use a computer.


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## amesburymc (May 14, 2006)

The last time when I traded my gear (VHT CL50) at LM was 10 years ago and I thought the offer was pretty decent lol. Every person I have met for gear deals had something bad to say about LM. I agree with most of them but it’s still one of few places where you have a 30-day return policy, warranty, etc. I don’t think most, if not all of us ever spend a second feeling sorry for someone who traded his/her gear for such cheap value when we see a rare crazy cheap can’t miss deal on gear hunter. I once saw Keeley 1962x pedal sold for less than $200. Brampton location used to have used Mesa Boogie Mark JP2C+ for $1800. That kind of deals from retailers is only possible at original owners’ expense unless the business is liquidifying everything. So if you think they always rip their customers, don’t use them. Take what’s good for you and enjoy deals if you find good ones. I never trade my gears at LM and only buy gears from them when I absolutely have no choice. But I check gear hunter every hour lol.


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## elburnando (11 mo ago)

I've had hit or miss experiences. For example, once I brought in a like new Gretsch electromatic 5410 I bought a couple months before. The offered me $350 on trade saying theyd sell it for $479 and the guy made a point of telling me the case id bought separately for 250 would have to be included. I declined, and then saw a week later the same guitar in worse condition selling there for $900 used without a case. 

I've also found several great deals there. They price their stuff like a used car, in that it drops every year in value. So I've gotten a few Gibsons; Studio T goldtop, a Junior, and a LP Special, for less than the epiphone versions of the same guitars retail for. I've also seen some nice PRS guitars for far less than the average selling price. 
I think it depends on the employee. A manager once helped me turn a few guitars and an Amp into a $4000 guitar, by getting creative with the return/restocking/inventory purchase options. 
I suspect sometimes they try to get items for themselves cheap as well, by working the trade-in system.


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## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

elburnando said:


> I've had hit or miss experiences. For example, once I brought in a like new Gretsch electromatic 5410 I bought a couple months before. The offered me $350 on trade saying theyd sell it for $479 and the guy made a point of telling me the case id bought separately for 250 would have to be included. I declined, and then saw a week later the same guitar in worse condition selling there for $900 used without a case.
> 
> I've also found several great deals there. They price their stuff like a used car, in that it drops every year in value. So I've gotten a few Gibsons; Studio T goldtop, a Junior, and a LP Special, for less than the epiphone versions of the same guitars retail for. I've also seen some nice PRS guitars for far less than the average selling price.
> I think it depends on the employee. A manager once helped me turn a few guitars and an Amp into a $4000 guitar, by getting creative with the return/restocking/inventory purchase options.
> I suspect sometimes they try to get items for themselves cheap as well, by working the trade-in system.


I was recently talking to a manager of an LM asking about a Gibson they had listed as “demo call for price”, it had been a rental, and rented for something like 90 days. The price was less than $50 under the price for a new one, and his advice was to buy a new one.

The great deals I’ve seen, we’re on used guitars brought in for sale or trade and kept for sales events.


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## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

Jim Soloway said:


> Really? With Reverb, Kijiji, Facebook Marketplace and endless local sales forums on FB, plus Google to tell you how much everything is worth, I think anyone who has even a passing intertest in knowing can find out what their stuff is worth and how to sell it in about five minutes. And for some reason I just don't believe that L&M is getting their entire used inventory from 90 year old widows who don't know how to use a computer.


Many people dealing with a loved ones estate, may not have any guitar knowledge, and may trust the folks at a store more than they should. They may not be in the mental state to take the steps you and I might to get a better price, or they might have an immediate financial situation, where getting rid of everything at once and getting some cash flow is critical. Funerals are expensive, as are estate lawyers, and CRA always gets their cut…

There was recently a substantial estate collection sold at LM Kanata, you can see threads on it here. Look at those sale prices and tell me that LM offered that family fair market value.

Do they get their entire used inventory from widows? Nope, but I bet it’s a bigger source than you think.


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## elburnando (11 mo ago)

Parabola said:


> Many people dealing with a loved ones estate, may not have any guitar knowledge, and may trust the folks at a store more than they should. They may not be in the mental state to take the steps you and I might to get a better price, or they might have an immediate financial situation, where getting rid of everything at once and getting some cash flow is critical. Funerals are expensive, as are estate lawyers, and CRA always gets their cut…
> 
> There was recently a substantial estate collection sold at LM Kanata, you can see threads on it here. Look at those sale prices and tell me that LM offered that family fair market value.
> 
> Do they get their entire used inventory from widows? Nope, but I bet it’s a bigger source than you think.


Absolutely! If some guys at L&M try to offer people who own and use the gear, and know it's value, a lowball price, just imagine what those same guys would offer a family who has no idea what their items are worth.


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## elburnando (11 mo ago)

Parabola said:


> I was recently talking to a manager of an LM asking about a Gibson they had listed as “demo call for price”, it had been a rental, and rented for something like 90 days. The price was less than $50 under the price for a new one, and his advice was to buy a new one.
> 
> The great deals I’ve seen, we’re on used guitars brought in for sale or trade and kept for sales events.


In Markham last month, they had(or maybe still have)a new 2022 Black Les Paul Custom that had suffered a broken headstock during shipping, but was repaired by them. Most people probably wouldn't notice as on a black guitar it's easy to hide. New they are $6199, but this was being sold for $5299. For a repaired headstock! The guy told me once they rent it out for a few months, the price may drop $500 or so since it will be sold as a demo model. So a used, broken headstock LP Custom for $4800+ tax, no warranty. I can guarantee that someone buying that guitar will not be told about the repair.


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## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

elburnando said:


> Absolutely! If some guys at L&M try to offer people who own and use the gear, and know it's value, a lowball price, just imagine what those same guys would offer a family who has no idea what there items are worth.


That same store offered me $530 for a mint SG Standard and seemed shocked that I passed on the offer. I imagine walking in with a bunch of guitars and getting offered $3-4k seems like a lot of money, especially when you need it.

The other factor, is how many of us have told our significant other, what our gear REALLY cost?


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Parabola said:


> The other factor, is how many of us have told our significant other, what our gear REALLY cost?


That’s actually a recurring joke on many guitar forums…

“When I die, my greatest fear is that my wife will sell my guitars for what I _told_ her I paid for them.”


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## elburnando (11 mo ago)

Parabola said:


> That same store offered me $530 for a mint SG Standard and seemed shocked that I passed on the offer. I imagine walking in with a bunch of guitars and getting offered $3-4k seems like a lot of money, especially when you need it.
> 
> The other factor, is how many of us have told our significant other, what our gear REALLY cost?


Yeah, that's true. I'm a young guy but have a bad heart. Any piece of gear I own I write down a description, approximate value and whether it's likely to increase on a list that I keep in a spot that it will be found in the event of my passing. I would rather they donate it to charity then get ripped off by someone.


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## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

elburnando said:


> Yeah, that's true. I'm a young guy but have a bad heart. Any piece of gear I own I write down a description, approximate value and whether it's likely to increase on a list that I keep in a spot that it will be found in the event of my passing. I would rather they donate it to charity then get ripped off by someone.


I have a couple of sentimental guitars for my kids, and they can have them all if they want. But if not, it’s in my will that a couple of guitar buddies are to make sure fair value is gotten for anything that is to be sold.


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## Jim Soloway (Sep 27, 2013)

Parabola said:


> Many people dealing with a loved ones estate, may not have any guitar knowledge, and may trust the folks at a store more than they should. They may not be in the mental state to take the steps you and I might to get a better price, or they might have an immediate financial situation, where getting rid of everything at once and getting some cash flow is critical. Funerals are expensive, as are estate lawyers, and CRA always gets their cut…
> 
> There was recently a substantial estate collection sold at LM Kanata, you can see threads on it here. Look at those sale prices and tell me that LM offered that family fair market value.
> 
> Do they get their entire used inventory from widows? Nope, but I bet it’s a bigger source than you think.


Can you define what you mean by "fair market value"? Are you talking about the retail value or are you talking about the wholesale value? If you're talking about the retail value then I think that's an inappropriate standard by which to judge them. They are a retailer. They are in business to make a profit. They buy used goods as inventory which then have to be resold. If there is not sufficient profit margin for them to justify the purchase then they have no reason to buy it. The minute you start selling goods to a retailer (ANY retailer), then you essentially have become a wholesaler. There's just no way to get around that.


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## elburnando (11 mo ago)

Jim Soloway said:


> Can you define what you mean by "fair market value"? Are you talking about the retail value or are you talking about the wholesale value? If you're talking about the retail value then I think that's an inappropriate standard by which to judge them. They are a retailer. They are in business to make a profit. They buy used goods as inventory which then have to be resold. If there is not sufficient profit margin for them to justify the purchase then they have no reason to buy it. The minute you start selling goods to a retailer (ANY retailer), then you essentially have become a wholesaler. There's just no way to get around that.


Yes. It's sad to see people walk into a pawn shop, guitar shop etc with an old guitar that's in terrible condition, expecting to get top dollar based on a mint example. Do they think guitar shops are collectors?


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## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

Jim Soloway said:


> Can you define what you mean by "fair market value"? Are you talking about the retail value or are you talking about the wholesale value? If you're talking about the retail value then I think that's an inappropriate standard by which to judge them. They are a retailer. They are in business to make a profit. They buy used goods as inventory which then have to be resold. If there is not sufficient profit margin for them to justify the purchase then they have no reason to buy it. The minute you start selling goods to a retailer (ANY retailer), then you essentially have become a wholesaler. There's just no way to get around that.


In the case of a bereavement, as we were discussing, I’ve seen several shops over the years do estate sales under a consignment like fee structure, based off an assessment of the value. To my mind, that’s a fair, and at 30% there’s still a decent profit for them considering retail markup is usually in the 10% zone.

Unrealistic? Perhaps, but I’ve seen it done, and everyone seemed happy enough with the arrangement.

The counter argument is of course they are a business and not a charity And fair enough. The stores I’m talking about above, were smaller places, that served a community and in a sense were a big part of that music community in many ways. Often those instruments were purchased from those stores by valued customers.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

For what it's worth, I told my Mrs if I croak to take all my gear to L&M and take whatever she can get for it. I won't be needing it anymore, and it's a one stop event. The last thing I want her dealing with are Kijidiots, mailing shit, etc.


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## Jim Soloway (Sep 27, 2013)

Parabola said:


> In the case of a bereavement, as we were discussing, I’ve seen several shops over the years do estate sales under a consignment like fee structure, based off an assessment of the value. To my mind, that’s a fair, and at 30% there’s still a decent profit for them considering retail markup is usually in the 10% zone.
> 
> Unrealistic? Perhaps, but I’ve seen it done, and everyone seemed happy enough with the arrangement.
> 
> The counter argument is of course they are a business and not a charity And fair enough. The stores I’m talking about above, were smaller places, that served a community and in a sense were a big part of that music community in many ways. Often those instruments were purchased from those stores by valued customers.


You were discussing bereavement but I'm pretty sure that wasn't actually the topic of discussion. It is, however, a way to introduce an interesting and emotionally compelling red herring to the discussion. It's no longer "how do Long And McQuade sleep at night" and instead becomes "how do Long And McQuade sleep at night when they're ripping off widows and orphans". Oh well.


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## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

Jim Soloway said:


> You were discussing bereavement but I'm pretty sure that wasn't actually the topic of discussion. It is, however, a way to introduce an interesting and emotionally compelling red herring to the discussion. It's no longer "how do Long And McQuade sleep at night" and instead becomes "how do Long And McQuade sleep at night when they're ripping off widows and orphans". Oh well.


The discussion between you and I on this started, when I replied to your post #102 when you were replying to another post on a estate sale…


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

BlueRocker said:


> For what it's worth, I told my Mrs if I croak to take all my gear to L&M and take whatever she can get for it. I won't be needing it anymore, and it's a one stop event. The last thing I want her dealing with are Kijidiots, mailing shit, etc.


You already have my number buddy!


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

you're all f*cked .. I'm cremating all my stuff and taking it with me when I go 

problem solved.


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## Jim Soloway (Sep 27, 2013)

Parabola said:


> The discussion between you and I on this started, when I replied to your post #102 when you were replying to another post on a estate sale…


You're right. The whole thing is just a scam to rip off widows and orphans.


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

I feel like my local L&M has been awesome to me.

"did you buy this from us? let me look it up" generally equals special treatment.

I once bought an Epiphone Elite acoustic (had to look that up) that I just didn't bond with, a year later brought it to them and they returned it as "used" for $100 less than I had originally paid for it (credit btw), I was shocked but cool!

I also once brought in an Epiphone Wildcat I had bought from them to see how much credit I could put towards an Epi Casino (a beauty made at peerless in Korea, miss it) and it cost me $70 to make that upgrade.

And the amp tech at my L&M is a legend to me, won't bother going there he's great, no complaints.

Then a year or maybe 2 ago, I see an Epi 335, used, no price, and I've been looking for a semi for years and go "f it, this is the one" bring it up to the counter, dude says "How about $335?" SOLD.

BUT.......I upgraded the hell out of that thing. Recently I decided to bring it in for a new nut and and good set-up. I had got a new nut on it and a set-up from a local kijjiji dude. Wasn't really happy with it.

Anyway, decided I'd rather spend the money to have a pro set up than spend money on the tools required to do it myself, just didn't have the brain power or time lately.

I admit, I brought it in a bit dusty, but not super gross or anything. I get a call back a couple days later and go in there. The guy tells me the truss rod is fucked, the nut on it is stuck and he can't move it. Yet.........

That slight layer of dust has not been disturbed in any way, so I bring it home, and I do this crap myself (which is what I have always done) truss rod nut moves no problem. I think that's weird.

Really want to bring it back to him, set up as well as I can personally do it, just to see what happens. Just want a set-up from someone with more experience and better measuring tools for the neck and string height etc.

Anyway, that kinda put me off L&M a bit even though I've generally had very positive experience with them.

Seems it's really hit and miss. When you hit the jackpot with someone there, don't burn that bridge!

edit: long story short, this guy never even took off the truss rod cover, or did anything, and completely lied to me about why he couldn't work on it, talking about "liability" and it was very bizarre. One of very FEW bad experiences but the most recent one that was kind of really off putting. Also, in the height of the pandemic all the regular employees were nowhere to be found, everyone working there seemed to be "upper management" types, and I think they basically got rid of their usual employees at a lot of stores and re-assigned their "upper-management" people to stores, because they're probably on salary and it made financial sense to them as a company, but they f'd their lower wage workers there, but this is just me speculating.


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## paraedolia (Nov 26, 2008)

Long on the left, McQuade on the right











(To be fair, I've never really had a problem with LnM)


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## TimH (Feb 4, 2006)

So long as we enjoy living in a part of the world that is driven by free market economy, we shouldn't really complain when people or businesses make money.


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## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

I've had far more positive experiences than negative ones at all my local L&Ms, dealing with several in the KW/GTA area. 

The trade-in thing is what it is and I'm free to sell the gear myself for more money or just take the convenience of the trade-in, nothing to moan about. (The store guys usually recommend just selling it, if it's obvious the L&M offer is low.)


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

TubeStack said:


> I've had far more positive experiences than negative ones at all my local L&Ms, dealing with several in the KW/GTA area.
> 
> The trade-in thing is what it is and I'm free to sell the gear myself for more money or just take the convenience of the trade-in, nothing to moan about. (The store guys usually recommend just selling it, if it's obvious the L&M offer is low.)


Wait....you can choose to accept L&M's offer on your stuff, or....sell it elsewhere? (i gotta point out sarcasm here because so many miss it)

Yeah they're really good for the most part. And it's not hard to notice when it's not good, and seek out another way to get what you want.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

2manyGuitars said:


> While I was paying, the salesman mentioned that it was one of two guitars they got from one guy earlier that day.


Something is a little fishy about this story. Unless L&M paid cash for the guitars, I don't think they can sell traded-in stuff until 30 days has passed. If you trade in a guitar for something else, you still have the right to return the newly purchased item within 30 days. If you return it, they are going to give back your traded-in gear, not cash. If it was sold the day it was brought in, that is going to be rather difficult. I was told they have to hold onto it for 30 days in Ontario by law. (I think this also is a reason why a lot of really good items get scooped up by employees before they even hit the floor.)

With regards to trade values, I think people often forget the benefit of the sales tax savings. When doing a trade you don't have to pay tax up to the value of your trade-in. With big-ticket items, that amount can add up quite quickly. If you can get 70-80% of the going used price for an item, adding the value of the tax savings (13% here in Ontario) can quickly turn a seemingly low offer into a decent offer.


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## GuitarT (Nov 23, 2010)

troyhead said:


> Something is a little fishy about this story. Unless L&M paid cash for the guitars, I don't think they can sell traded-in stuff until 30 days has passed. If you trade in a guitar for something else, you still have the right to return the newly purchased item within 30 days. If you return it, they are going to give back your traded-in gear, not cash. If it was sold the day it was brought in, that is going to be rather difficult. I was told they have to hold onto it for 30 days in Ontario by law. (I think this also is a reason why a lot of really good items get scooped up by employees before they even hit the floor.)


 Interesting. I traded in an old Ibanez Iceman to a local shop (then independently owned) a few years back. The owner gave me a sob story about how there was no market for those things and he would have a hard time selling it but he would take it anyway. Based on that he low balled me big time but since I had originally got the guitar at a very good price and I just just wanted to get rid of it I took his offer. The next week I was back at the store and figured I'd see my Iceman hanging there. It wasn't so I asked an employee who was there when I did the deal if it had sold. He said the owner had a buddy who buys those old 70's Ibanez's (V's, Explorers, Iceman's etc.) sight unseen and he came and picked it up hours after I brought it in. I'm less pissed at what I got for it as that was totally my choice but am pissed that he knowingly lied in an effort to get it off me at a cheap price. Live and learn.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

troyhead said:


> Something is a little fishy about this story. Unless L&M paid cash for the guitars, I don't think they can sell traded-in stuff until 30 days has passed. If you trade in a guitar for something else, you still have the right to return the newly purchased item within 30 days. If you return it, they are going to give back your traded-in gear, not cash. If it was sold the day it was brought in, that is going to be rather difficult. I was told they have to hold onto it for 30 days in Ontario by law. (I think this also is a reason why a lot of really good items get scooped up by employees before they even hit the floor.)
> 
> With regards to trade values, I think people often forget the benefit of the sales tax savings. When doing a trade you don't have to pay tax up to the value of your trade-in. With big-ticket items, that amount can add up quite quickly. If you can get 70-80% of the going used price for an item, adding the value of the tax savings (13% here in Ontario) can quickly turn a seemingly low offer into a decent offer.


Some recent experience:

1. I traded in a Gibson ES-339 studio, and it was on the floor for sale the next day (in NS). I bought a relatively expensive amp, not sure what they would do if I returned it within 30 days.
2. Only once have I ever had L&M treat my gear like a trade in (used car for example) and reduce the sales tax on the new item.

But I did have an experience today that is relevant to this thread. I took two R9's to L&M for a setup (a new one and a 2009 50th Anniversary in mint condition). Out of curiosity I asked what the trade in value of the 2009 R9 was. After explaining that they sold it in 2010 for $6000, they said they would sell it for $3900 so the value at 70% of retail was $2700. I don't know about you but I've never seen a used R9 at L&M for $3900 - I'm pretty sure I'd buy every one they would sell me at that price.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

I'll give you 4100 for it if you are so tempted 

Their math seems not to really work so well for some things.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

Mark Brown said:


> I'll give you 4100 for it if you are so tempted
> 
> Their math seems not to really work so well for some things.


While that's a very untempting offer, I'm going to hold onto it for a spell.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Can you figure how they determine the value of a 2010 R9 at 3900 selling? I cannot.

Is it based on the 10 year old selling price?


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

Mark Brown said:


> Can you figure how they determine the value of a 2010 R9 at 3900 selling? I cannot.
> 
> Is it based on the 10 year old selling price?


Perhaps they thought I'd be ripping the headstock off and keeping it. I have no clue how they came up with that. I guess if I brought in a real '59 they'd offer $285?


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## Wucan (Apr 30, 2021)

Speaking of fishy... I dropped by the Vancouver location a couple of weeks ago and saw a cool used Soloist Jackson. Weird thing, it was in the Custom Shop section. It clearly looked and felt like a MIJ SLS3 from a couple of decades ago... but the salespeople were sure it was in fact a CS, and despite the guitar being beat to shit they were charging 2.5K even though you can find these guitars in the 1K or less range off Craigslist. It still had my attention because it was in a rare color, though, and I do love me some pointy guitars.

Some googling later and lo and behold, the specs, parts and serial number obviously indicate its a SLS3, just with a customer ordered finish in the same vein as Fender's Mod Shop. It was too easy to verify this though, so I haven't reapproached the store - in trade ins for guitars they can't look up the manager makes the call, so they must know they got bamboozled in the trade in and are trying to double down on their mistake.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Mark Brown said:


> Can you figure how they determine the value of a 2010 R9 at 3900 selling? I cannot.
> 
> Is it based on the 10 year old selling price?


It's generally based on what they sold for new at the time. That's probably most of the insane deals found on gear hunter (and if you call because not everything goes to gear hunter).

Kijiji people (read: us and others) can ask $1000 for a guitar that sold for $500 new at L&M. L&M will sell it for $280 because Kijiji doesn't factor in.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Budda said:


> It's generally based on what they sold for new at the time. That's probably most of the insane deals found on gear hunter (and if you call because not everything goes to gear hunter).
> 
> Kijiji people (read: us and others) can ask $1000 for a guitar that sold for $500 new at L&M. L&M will sell it for $280 because Kijiji doesn't factor in.


Yup. They're looking to turn over their used gear in 30 days not maximize profit.


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## OttawaGuitarGuyGSA (Jan 13, 2020)

I have traded up a number of times at L&M.
Not the greatest return for sure but…

Depends on how bad I wanted to unload a piece of gear. Will I accept the price they offer… my choice.

Dealing with selling on Kijiji sometimes I have no patience for so I decide on the the loss hit as I want the next gas purchase. 🤷🏼‍♂️

If you look at their blow out sales they pull in a lot of used gear = money on the books they have to turn into real cash to sustain the business.

Many stores don’t do this at all , want to get rid of gear .. your problem .. your expense .

Just another option .. glad they offer it.
Don’t use it often but .. it’s an option they offer and sometimes it’s ok to do.


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## Rooster69 (4 mo ago)

elburnando said:


> I find L&M will also play with the numbers so they give you a 70% offer rather than 80%, which they offer if you buy something for more than double the price theyll sale your trade guitar for. Like they'll say "we'd sell that for $1050, and your new guitar is $2000, so you get $735 credit". If they said they'd resell it for $1000, you would have gotten $800 credit. Also, some guys are dicks there and just want to make a name for themselves.


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## Rooster69 (4 mo ago)

Let’s face it they got the monopoly! 
They can offer what they want! That’s mostly well under 70% of the real market value of your instrument! They set the price and you get skunked!


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## PTO (12 mo ago)

Honestly, one might prefer another music store, but all things considered I think L&M customer service is far better than most other categories’ national and multinational chains.

In all my years shopping there I’ve never bought an instrument, but I definitely prefer to buy my other gear there. The trade-in price plus tax savings is usually close enough. It’s also handy to make returns at the store even if you bought online.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I recently went into the Markham store to ask about some lefty Cobain Jagstangs that were showing as in stock in their warehouse. It was the last day of Fender month and I was itching to spend some $. It should be noted that I’ve bought lots of gear from the chain and returned very little.

Anyhow, the sales guy told me that they would be happy to bring it into the store…for a 10% non refundable deposit. I explained to him that that policy was ridiculous on a product that they had already ordered and had shipped from Fender. If it was special ordered I might understand…but a non refundable deposit on something already in stock? Crazy talk.

The manager later called me back saying that they would make the deposit refundable but by then, I was almost home, over an hour away on the last day of Fender month. I told him it was too little too late. Sale lost. 

I had a similar experience in the Spring of this year when I was looking for a lefty American Pro II Jazzmaster. Same store. They had several in order but not yet delivered. I asked about holding one for me once they arrived so I could check it out…again they tried the 10% non refundable bullshit. Sale lost. 

In both cases I walked out disgusted at the greed and lack of respect for a long time customer with an account in good standing. The Jazzmaster I ended up ordering (with no obligation) and buying elsewhere. The Jagstang…the urge kind of vanished after a few days.

I have ZERO loyalty for a chain who’s attitude seems like they think they’re doing me a favour by bringing in or holding a product for a high percentage chance of sale customer. I’m not out to boycott them but if they don’t meet MY idea of reasonable terms….fuck ‘em. Money talks.


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

JBFairthorne said:


> I recently went into the Markham store to ask about some lefty Cobain Jagstangs that were showing as in stock in their warehouse. It was the last day of Fender month and I was itching to spend some $. It should be noted that I’ve bought lots of gear from the chain and returned very little.
> 
> Anyhow, the sales guy told me that they would be happy to bring it into the store…for a 10% non refundable deposit. I explained to him that that policy was ridiculous on a product that they had already ordered and had shipped from Fender. If it was special ordered I might understand…but a non refundable deposit on something already in stock? Crazy talk.
> 
> ...


You've got to pick and choose who to deal with I find. It's our big chain but some dudes and dudettes are great to deal with.

Honestly it helps with impulse purchasing I've found. Walk out disappointed and you still got that money in your wallet when you get the shaft.

No harm no foul.


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## Skynyrds Innyrds (5 mo ago)

JBFairthorne said:


> I recently went into the Markham store to ask about some lefty Cobain Jagstangs that were showing as in stock in their warehouse. It was the last day of Fender month and I was itching to spend some $. It should be noted that I’ve bought lots of gear from the chain and returned very little.
> 
> Anyhow, the sales guy told me that they would be happy to bring it into the store…for a 10% non refundable deposit. I explained to him that that policy was ridiculous on a product that they had already ordered and had shipped from Fender. If it was special ordered I might understand…but a non refundable deposit on something already in stock? Crazy talk.
> 
> ...


Deal with another location. I've never once been made to pay that fee. It has come up on the computer, but has always been waived and almost always without anything having to be said.


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## patski (Feb 7, 2018)

A 10% non-refundable deposit? WTF is this, a car dealership? I wouldn't give a dime to that L & M store ever again if that had happened to me.


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## Fenderology (7 mo ago)

I made the mistake of buying L&M - tried to trade in a few Fenders for a more expensive Fender. They’re policy on trades/swaps is disgusting.
They’ll only allow one item traded to be applied to an item being purchased. They’ll give you 80% of their resale value for your item applied to a trade - but get this, the item you’re buying has to be at minimum double the value of the trade. Or they’ll just give you 70% of their resale value for any of your items.

I was blown away.

Privately owned small music shops from now on.


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