# Gibson Files For Bankruptcy



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Guitar-Maker Gibson Brands Files for Bankruptcy

Gibson files for bankruptcy in order to focus on guitars | The Star

By Austen Hufford
Updated May 1, 2018 8:26 a.m. ET
4 COMMENTS
Storied guitar maker Gibson Brands Inc. filed for bankruptcy protection Tuesday as the company has struggled with its debt load after a series of acquisitions.

The company, which filed for chapter 11 in U.S. Bankruptcy Court in Delaware, said it will continue to operate during the proceedings as it focuses on reorganizing around its core businesses. Gibson plans to wind down its Gibson’s Innovations business, which is largely outside of the U.S.

“The decision to re-focus on our core business, musical instruments, combined with the significant support from our noteholders, we believe will assure the company’s long-term stability and financial health,” Chief Executive Henry Juszkiewicz said in prepared remarks. “Importantly, this process will be virtually invisible to customers.”

The Nashville-based maker of Gibson Les Paul guitars has been struggling with debt it took on to finance acquisitions of home-entertainment and audio-equipment makers years ago. Among businesses the company has added are some of Royal Phillips’s home-entertainment systems, TEAC and Onkyo stereos.

Gibson also makes instruments under a number of brand names including Dobro, Epiphone, Kramer and Tobias. The company also owns a number of historic brands, including Slingerland drums and Wurlitzer pianos.

Gibson said it has reached an agreement with holders of more than 69% of its senior secured notes due in 2018 and shareholders that lets it continue to operate. The company also said existing noteholders have committed to provide $135 million in debtor-in-possession financing.

The company said in the bankruptcy filing that it has debts of between $100 million and $500 million, including owing at least $100,000 to 26 other companies, including many suppliers.

Write to Austen Hufford at [email protected]
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## KoskineN (Apr 19, 2007)

Ouch...well the Gibson Saga goes on. I seriously hope they get on their feet again and focus on quality and what players want. It's ok to try to innovate, but it should be a very small part of their business IMO.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Good. A renewed focus on their core business should mean better guitars for us.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Yup, the tubes will be all a flutter tonight.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Bloomberg has a good synopsis here: Gibson Files for Bankruptcy in Deal to Renew Guitar Business


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Glad this happening sooner than later and that the focus will be on its core musical instrument business


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Robert1950 said:


> Glad this happening sooner than later and that the focus will be on its core musical instrument business


Same. Wonder how this will affect pre-bankruptcy values of Gibson guitars. I think they'll go up in value until people see if compromises will be made in producing post-bankruptcy models. I also wonder if there will be a production pause while they sort things out.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

1SweetRide said:


> Same. Wonder how this will affect pre-bankruptcy values of Gibson guitars. I think they'll go up in value until people see if compromises will be made in producing post-bankruptcy models. I also wonder if there will be a production pause while they sort things out.


It would be excruciatingly stupid of them to make any compromises in terms of quality at this point. People will be expecting things to either remain the same or improve.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

KoskineN said:


> Ouch...well the Gibson Saga goes on. I seriously hope they get on their feet again and focus on quality and what players want. *It's ok to try to innovate, but it should be a very small part of their business* IMO.


Innovations is always good but I agree that quality should be paramount. When we look back on the history of the electric guitar, there is not a whole lot of innovation that has gone on. The basic electric guitar has not changed in decades. Godin is likely the most innovative companies, I have seen since starting to play 20 years ago.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I can't tell from the wording if Henry is staying or going, or staying for a bit then going. He was both the best thing and the worst thing that happened to the company. When he took over at first he did some great things and then he lost his mind going for the "lifestyle" thing.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I can't tell from the wording if Henry is staying or going, or staying for a bit then going. He was both the best thing and the worst thing that happened to the company. When he took over at first he did some great things and then he lost his mind going for the "lifestyle" thing.


I think this is sort of a severance type thing. One year as CEO while they come out of Chapter 11, is what I've read. He'll have to hit some pretty strict targets, I imagine.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

It looks like Henry could be out, eventually. Seeing there is a compensation package on the table, it appears Henry sees the writing on the wall and knows he'll be gone or wants to wash his hands of the business but wants to keep his yacht and vacation homes.

Whistler Now Tops Vancouver as Canada’s Craziest Housing Market

_Juszkiewicz, who has found himself at odds with creditors in recent months, will continue with the company upon emergence from bankruptcy “to facilitate a smooth transition,” according to the agreement. Court papers call for a one-year consulting deal and compensation package for Juszkiewicz. A representative for the company didn’t immediately respond to questions about whether Juszkiewicz will remain as CEO or in a separate role._


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## KoskineN (Apr 19, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> Innovations is always good but I agree that quality should be paramount. When we look back on the history of the electric guitar, there is not a whole lot of innovation that has gone on. The basic electric guitar has not changed in decades. Godin is likely the most innovative companies, I have seen since starting to play 20 years ago.


Well, it seems like guitar players don't like innovations on their guitars. Innovatives guitars were never really that popular, except for players with endorsements


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)




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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Gotta like the BBC headline title......

Gibson guitar firm goes out of tune

The last line in the article.. "It aims to exit bankruptcy protection on 24 September."


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> It looks like Henry could be out, eventually. Seeing there is a compensation package on the table, it appears Henry sees the writing on the wall and knows he'll be gone or wants to wash his hands of the business but wants to keep his yacht and vacation homes.
> 
> Whistler Now Tops Vancouver as Canada’s Craziest Housing Market
> 
> _Juszkiewicz, who has found himself at odds with creditors in recent months, will continue with the company upon emergence from bankruptcy “to facilitate a smooth transition,” according to the agreement. Court papers call for a one-year consulting deal and compensation package for Juszkiewicz. A representative for the company didn’t immediately respond to questions about whether Juszkiewicz will remain as CEO or in a separate role._


Reading between the lines, that sure sounds like he's out, but with a bit of an ego cushion.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

I would suspect he's effectively out now. Will be around to answer questions. That's it.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

From BBC news/business... _"It aims to exit bankruptcy protection on 24 September."_


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)




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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

jdto said:


> It would be excruciatingly stupid of them to make any compromises in terms of quality at this point. People will be expecting things to either remain the same or improve.


What people expect and what companies actually do are often two very different things.


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

RBlakeney said:


> View attachment 199929


If this is true, I’d be interested to see how the company changes. I’d like to see it as a change for the better.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

Ronbeast said:


> If this is true, I’d be interested to see how the company changes. I’d like to see it as a change for the better.


It has to be true. It's on instagram.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

RBlakeney said:


> It has to be true. It's on instagram.


.......................and GuitarsCanada.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

Steadfastly said:


> .......................and GuitarsCanada.


Everything on the internet is true.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

JB buying gibson, not likely...i dont think he has the money for it. 

gibson has been doing some messed up stuff the last 5 years...

they had some good ideas but looking at some of the absolute nonsense they put out, im surprised it took this long...

the weird ass font they had last year that looked like it was scribbled onto the headstock? are you for serious?

the little throwback to the little sharkfin at the neck break? cmon...

charging an arm and a leg for a les paul JR? $1600 now really?

these are supposed to be entry level student models...the tribute series sold for less than that....its clearly evident they can sell a budget guitar that sounds and plays well...yet they do the opposite...

no one really cares about robot tuners and all that garbage. i have yet to meet a player that cared about that stuff.

innovation is great....dont get me wrong...but they need to innovate in ways that draw in a new market or bring back a fleeing market.

If your customers are going to fender, you need to ask yourself why and what you can do to mitigate this. is it cost? is it model? performance? adapt or you will not survive


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

1SweetRide said:


> What people expect and what companies actually do are often two very different things.


Hence the "excruciatingly stupid" part of my comment


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## GuitarT (Nov 23, 2010)




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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

blam said:


> JB buying gibson, not likely...i dont think he has the money for it.
> 
> gibson has been doing some messed up stuff the last 5 years...
> 
> ...


Gibson and Fender have been losing market share to the competition for years. People like Ibanez, PRS, Rondo, GFS, etc., etc. Some people want the original but people are much more informed buyers these days and the internet is responsible in large part. It is so easy to do a comparison and people are comparing and are recognizing that they can get basically the same guitar for less than half the pice elsewhere. 

This happens in most markets, when there are items that are sold enmasse and the competition comes calling wanting a share of that market.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)




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## DrumBob (Aug 17, 2014)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I can't tell from the wording if Henry is staying or going, or staying for a bit then going. He was both the best thing and the worst thing that happened to the company. When he took over at first he did some great things and then he lost his mind going for the "lifestyle" thing.


It's pretty plain on that Bloomberg report. Ownership has been taken over by the creditors and Henry has a one year consulting deal. Hopefully, by this time next year, he'll sail off into the sunset.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

DrumBob said:


> It's pretty plain on that Bloomberg report. Ownership has been taken over by the creditors and Henry has a one year consulting deal. Hopefully, by this time next year, he'll sail off into the sunset.


Lack of sleep, my comprehension skills are not tip top right now. Thanks.


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## DrumBob (Aug 17, 2014)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Lack of sleep, my comprehension skills are not tip top right now. Thanks.


I can relate. By the time I was done with my gig last Saturday night, I was exhausted, and shouldn't have been. I had a nap in the afternoon.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

It is amusing to see that folks who paid a ridiculously high price for a "factory" guitar are now speculating that prices will shoot up even higher. 

Really?


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

ronmac said:


> It is amusing to see that folks who paid a ridiculously high price for a "factory" guitar are now speculating that prices will shoot up even higher.
> 
> Really?


Yes, as evidenced by the filing which reports they sell over 170,000 expensive guitars annually with a 40% share of the over $2000.00 US market. So, people buy Gibsons and will continue to do so. Existing guitars will become more valuable should supply change or quality decrease under new ownership.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

DrumBob said:


> It's pretty plain on that Bloomberg report. Ownership has been taken over by the creditors and Henry has a one year consulting deal. Hopefully, by this time next year, he'll sail off into the sunset.


Once Henry got in bed with the "Angel" investors a few years ago he had basically given up ownership of assets and direction of the company.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

1SweetRide said:


> Yes, as evidenced by the filing which reports they sell over 170,000 expensive guitars annually with a 40% share of the over $2000.00 US market. So, people buy Gibsons and *will continue to do so*. Existing guitars will become more valuable should supply change or quality decrease under new ownership.


Seeing that they keep losing market share, year by year, what do you base the supposition that they will continue to buy expensive Gibsons? I am not saying they won't sell them but are you saying those sales will increase or even stay at present levels?

Whether existing guitars will increase in value remains to be seen.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> *Seeing that they keep losing market share, year by year*, what do you base the supposition that they will continue to buy expensive Gibsons? I am not saying they won't sell them but are you saying those sales will increase or even stay at present levels?
> 
> Whether existing guitars will increase in value remains to be seen.


Source for the bolded?


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Yes, what @jdto sez



jdto said:


> Source for the bolded?


Gibson sells 40% of all guitars over $2000. The source is in one of the 2 or 3 posts and KUOW Public Radio in the USA.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Robert1950 said:


> Yes, what @jdto sez
> 
> 
> 
> Gibson sells 40% of all guitars over $2000. The source is in one of the 2 or 3 posts and KUOW Public Radio in the USA.


Those were my quotes, he means Steadfastly's statement about Gibson constantly losing market share.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

jdto said:


> Source for the bolded?


What @jdto sez

Gibson sells 40% of all electric guitars over $2000US. Source in one of the 2 or 3 other posts on this topic and KUOW Public Radio in the US


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## GuitarT (Nov 23, 2010)

I hate to say it but Gibson's guitar sales being down almost 20% over the last three years in an overall market that has seen a less than 10% decrease does point to loss of market share.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

jdto said:


> Source for the bolded?


Guitar news. It's quite easy to find if you search for it. The very fact that they now only have 40% and they at one time had way more than that shows they have lost a lot of market share and continue to do so. It's not just Gibson, it happens to every manufacturer that is supposedly at the top of the heap. The competition just keeps whittling away at them. GM is a good example of that. Now it's happening to Volkswagen. I don't know what the numbers are for Fender, but they are likely affected similarly. In their hayday, Fender and Gibson had very little competition but that is no longer the case.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> Guitar news. It's quite easy to find if you search for it. The very fact that they now only have 40% and they at one time had way more than that shows they have lost a lot of market share and continue to do so. It's not just Gibson, it happens to every manufacturer that is supposedly at the top of the heap. The competition just keeps whittling away at them. GM is a good example of that. Now it's happening to Volkswagen. I don't know what the numbers are for Fender, but they are likely affected similarly. In their hayday, Fender and Gibson had very little competition but that is no longer the case.


So you don’t have the numbers, you’re just guessing and using “guitar news” as some nebulous source.

The quote above says 40% above $2,000. It makes no mention of overall sales.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

@jdto I'm surprised Steadly didn't pull this one out for you...



Steadfastly said:


> Do some research.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

Is this the rondo that's taking over?
Serious question. Asking for a friend.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

RBlakeney said:


> Is this the rondo that's taking over?
> Serious question. Asking for a friend.
> 
> View attachment 200145


don't forget their boat and trailer storage offerings


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

vadsy said:


> @jdto I'm surprised Steadly didn't pull this one out for you...


I got a variation. 



Steadfastly said:


> It's quite easy to find if you search for it.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Guitar news. It's quite easy to find if you search for it. The very fact that they now only have 40% and they at one time had way more than that shows they have lost a lot of market share and continue to do so. It's not just Gibson, it happens to every manufacturer that is supposedly at the top of the heap. The competition just keeps whittling away at them. GM is a good example of that. Now it's happening to Volkswagen. I don't know what the numbers are for Fender, but they are likely affected similarly. In their hayday, Fender and Gibson had very little competition but that is no longer the case.


if its easy, why not help out the forum and post a couple of results for us? reposting is the name of your game

how much more above 40% of the market did they used to have? 'way more' sounds like something you made up and I would hate for you to get a reputation as a bullshitter

GM? Volkswagen? Fender? add some numbers to your statements, otherwise it seems amateurish and that you are not!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

jdto said:


> So you don’t have the numbers, you’re just guessing and using “guitar news” as some nebulous source.
> 
> The quote above says 40% above $2,000. It makes no mention of overall sales.


No. I am not guessing. The 40% has nothing do with with lost market share over the years. It is just where they are now. They don't want to post where it has been. That has been cleverly omitted.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> No. I am not guessing. The 40% has nothing do with with lost market share over the years. It is just where they are now. They don't want to post where it has been. That has been cleverly omitted.


how do you know this? why would they omit it?


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## Guest (May 2, 2018)

vadsy said:


> how do you know this?


divine consultation, don'cha know.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> No. I am not guessing. The 40% has nothing do with with lost market share over the years. It is just where they are now. They don't want to post where it has been. That has been cleverly omitted.


Pure speculation.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

laristotle said:


> divine consultation, don'cha know.


I dunno,... the big man upstairs just doesn't hand out info like that


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

First you said:


Steadfastly said:


> The very fact that they now only have 40% and they at one time had way more than that shows they have lost a lot of market share and continue to do so.


Now you say:


Steadfastly said:


> The 40% has nothing do with with lost market share over the years.


And how do you know what percentage they had of total market, or of the $2,000+ market, in the past? You haven’t even shown knowledge of what portion they have of the current total market.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

I found this in my briefcase of files.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

jdto said:


> First you said:
> 
> 
> Now you say:
> ...


I'm sure they had way more than 40% of the high end market for most of their existence. Certainly up until the 80s.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

RBlakeney said:


> I found this in my briefcase of files.
> View attachment 200209


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## Guest (May 2, 2018)

vadsy said:


> I dunno,... the big man upstairs just doesn't hand out info like that





vadsy said:


> how do you know this?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

jdto said:


> First you said:
> 
> 
> Now you say:
> ...


If you are really interested in all the numbers, why don't you find the numbers and give us the percentage. It's not worth hashing it out for me.


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## Guest (May 2, 2018)

Steadfastly said:


> It's not worth hashing it out for me.


Ah, but you already have done so because of your statements regarding market percentages.
or is it that you can't recall how you came about your comments?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

laristotle said:


> _vadsy quotes_


seems like it would be reserved for folks with a higher clearance level


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> If you are really interested in all the numbers, why don't you find the numbers and give us the percentage. It's not worth hashing it out for me.


are you serious? I'm so sad you cop out so easily all the time,,,. no wonder the millennials are winning

_make bold statements and never deliver, regards Steadfastly_


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> If you are really interested in all the numbers, why don't you find the numbers and give us the percentage. It's not worth hashing it out for me.


Your comments were pure conjecture. How can you quote or reference numbers you haven’t hashed out?


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

jdto said:


> Your comments were pure conjecture. How can you quote or reference numbers you haven’t hashed out?


Didn't you guys see the pie chart? A lot of hash went into it.


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## mrfiftyfour (Jun 29, 2008)

RBlakeney said:


> Didn't you guys see the pie chart? A lot of hash went into it.


Now that's comedy


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

Saw an excerpt earlier on FB where Henry J said something along the lines of there being “no changes to inventory, pricing or quality of our guitars/pro audio equipment”.

That’s a huge kick in the nuts...Literally the only thing I wanted from this bankruptcy was better quality guitars with realistic prices. 

What’s even the point of not changing their ways now that they’ve been given a chance?


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

RBlakeney said:


> Didn't you guys see the pie chart? A lot of hash went into it.


Just like my amp repairs  

Except the hash is to keep the wife distracted while I sneak more amps into the house.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

cboutilier said:


> Just like my amp repairs
> 
> Except the hash is to keep the wife distracted while I sneak more amps into the house.


The good part about amp repairs is that you can tell her you're fixing them even when you aren't haha.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Ronbeast said:


> Saw an excerpt earlier on FB where Henry J said something along the lines of there being “no changes to inventory, pricing or quality of our guitars/pro audio equipment”.
> 
> That’s a huge kick in the nuts...Literally the only thing I wanted from this bankruptcy was better quality guitars with realistic prices.
> 
> What’s even the point of not changing their ways now that they’ve been given a chance?


From what I’ve read, the guitar side of things is not what sunk them (apart from the 2015 debacle). It’s been said in many articles that it was all the “lifestyle” and electronics acquisitions that were sinking the ship. 

I’ve owned about a dozen “modern” Gibsons ranging from 2006 to 2016 and all of them have been great, with only one QC issue. I bought a used 2006 60s Hummingbird that had the nut cut off-centre so I had it replaced by a luthier. It was great in every other way. 

Gibsons cost what they cost because people buy them at those prices. If you wait on sales on older model years (to buy NOS) or buy used, you can get lower prices. Why would they lower their prices when they are still selling guitars at current rates? If their guitar sales drop dramatically, we’ll likely see price adjustments. That said, there are Gibsons that cost well under $1,000 and are good guitars. I really like my 70s Tribute SG.


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## DrumBob (Aug 17, 2014)

RBlakeney said:


> Is this the rondo that's taking over?
> Serious question. Asking for a friend.
> 
> View attachment 200145


Yes, that's the Rondo mentioned. They used to have a brick & mortar store on Route 22 in Hillside, New Jersey and were there since 1959, I think. They closed the store several years ago when Kurt Zentmaier's (his real last name is Ratzenmaier) dad Carl, retired. They were only a couple miles away from Guitar Center and Sam Ash, and the neighborhood was going downhill as well. Kurt moved the business to New Hampshire and now operates as mail order only, selling Agile, SX, Douglas and Hadean brand guitars, low end drums, accessories and other musical stuff. He has a warehouse, but runs the business out of his home and has very little overhead, other than several employees. Agile guitars are generally well made, inexpensive instruments, some made in Korea. The other guitars are Chinese.

I used to shop at Rondo quite a bit in my youth, as it was ten miles from my home at the time. Or, it was more like, I tried out stuff at Rondo and left empty-handed! Before they closed, the store was loaded with Agile guitars for sale. They pretty much stopped selling other brands of guitars by that point. I talked to a guy there one day who was in the process of buying his 26th and 27th Agile guitar! Guys would come over from Manhattan and buy five or six at a time.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

DrumBob said:


> Yes, that's the Rondo mentioned. They used to have a brick & mortar store on Route 22 in Hillside, New Jersey and were there since 1959, I think. They closed the store several years ago when Kurt Zentmaier's (his real last name is Ratzenmaier) dad Carl, retired. They were only a couple miles away from Guitar Center and Sam Ash, and the neighborhood was going downhill as well. Kurt moved the business to New Hampshire and now operates as mail order only, selling Agile, SX, Douglas and Hadean brand guitars, low end drums, accessories and other musical stuff. He has a warehouse, but runs the business out of his home and has very little overhead, other than several employees. Agile guitars are generally well made, inexpensive instruments, some made in Korea. The other guitars are Chinese.
> 
> I used to shop at Rondo quite a bit in my youth, as it was ten miles from my home at the time. Or, it was more like, I tried out stuff at Rondo and left empty-handed! Before they closed, the store was loaded with Agile guitars for sale. They pretty much stopped selling other brands of guitars by that point. I talked to a guy there one day who was in the process of buying his 26th and 27th Agile guitar! Guys would come over from Manhattan and buy five or six at a time.


did any of those Manhattan guys know the percentages on the market share they were taking away from Gibson? was it like 40?


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

jdto said:


> From what I’ve read, the guitar side of things is not what sunk them (apart from the 2015 debacle). It’s been said in many articles that it was all the “lifestyle” and electronics acquisitions that were sinking the ship.
> 
> I’ve owned about a dozen “modern” Gibsons ranging from 2006 to 2016 and all of them have been great, with only one QC issue. I bought a used 2006 60s Hummingbird that had the nut cut off-centre so I had it replaced by a luthier. It was great in every other way.
> 
> Gibsons cost what they cost because people buy them at those prices. If you wait on sales on older model years (to buy NOS) or buy used, you can get lower prices. Why would they lower their prices when they are still selling guitars at current rates? If their guitar sales drop dramatically, we’ll likely see price adjustments. That said, there are Gibsons that cost well under $1,000 and are good guitars. I really like my 70s Tribute SG.


I currently own 3 Gibson’s myself, all built within the last decade, none are particularly high end models, but I’m well versed in their low to mid range instruments. 

I feel their middle of the road offerings are pretty good in terms of bang for buck, but once you get above about $3k, for me, I think the company is just running wild with the name. Their expensive guitars are amazingly crafted instruments, and it shows, but they can cost almost double what a custom build runs. 

I’d love to own a high end Gibson some day; but I’d also love to own a Kiesel, a Lull, a Kinal, a Sadowsky or any other number of custom builders that are building in Gibson’s price range. 

If people are willing to pay the prices for high end Gibson, they’re more than free to do it. It’s their money, after all. I don’t personally see any way for me to justify those prices, but hey, musicians are weird and sometimes guitars just speak to us.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

vadsy said:


> did any of those Manhattan guys know the percentages on the market share they were taking away from Gibson? was it like 40?


We are making progress. We have found there was one man who had 27 agiles, and likely an entire room of peavey rages.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

RBlakeney said:


> We are making progress. We have found there was one man who had 27 agiles, and likely an entire room of peavey rages.


Some day I'll out do him. I'll have 30 Squiers and a room full of Valve Juniors.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

RBlakeney said:


> We are making progress. We have found there was one man who had 27 agiles, and likely an entire room of peavey rages.


Lord, have mercy


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

The only that will out do a room full of Rondos is a room full of Chibsons - the real counterfeits


----------



## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

Robert1950 said:


> The only that will out do a room full of Rondos is a room full of Chibsons - the real counterfeits


I didn't see them in the pie chart.


----------



## georgemg (Jul 17, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> Gibson and Fender have been losing market share to the competition for years.


This might be true for Gibson, but it doesn't seem to be the case for Fender. While Gibson has $520 million in debt, Fender had $500 million in revenue last year. I've included a couple of links to back this up. The short version is Gibson basically abandoned the beginner market while Fender has put a big focus on it, which paid off quite well for them. 
https://www.forbes.com/sites/petercarbonara/2018/03/28/for-fender-guitars-the-future-is-digital-and-female/#757819444a37​
Fender CEO Andy Mooney: “Gibson’s travails are all of their own making” | MusicRadar


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Steadfastly said:


> Guitar news. It's quite easy to find if you search for it. The very fact that they now only have 40% and they at one time had way more than that shows they have lost a lot of market share and continue to do so. It's not just Gibson, it happens to every manufacturer that is supposedly at the top of the heap. The competition just keeps whittling away at them. GM is a good example of that. Now it's happening to Volkswagen. I don't know what the numbers are for Fender, but they are likely affected similarly. In their hayday, Fender and Gibson had very little competition but that is no longer the case.


I thought Gibson's market share had stabilised. Was it still declining?


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

georgemg said:


> This might be true for Gibson, but it doesn't seem to be the case for Fender. While Gibson has $520 million in debt, Fender had $500 million in revenue last year. I've included a couple of links to back this up. The short version is Gibson basically abandoned the beginner market while Fender has put a big focus on it, which paid off quite well for them.
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/petercarbonara/2018/03/28/for-fender-guitars-the-future-is-digital-and-female/#757819444a37​
> Fender CEO Andy Mooney: “Gibson’s travails are all of their own making” | MusicRadar


This was my understanding too. Both are private companies so other than tax filings, they don't have to report their business financials outside the company.


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## sillyak (Oct 22, 2016)

georgemg said:


> This might be true for Gibson, but it doesn't seem to be the case for Fender. While Gibson has $520 million in debt, Fender had $500 million in revenue last year. I've included a couple of links to back this up. The short version is Gibson basically abandoned the beginner market while Fender has put a big focus on it, which paid off quite well for them.
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/petercarbonara/2018/03/28/for-fender-guitars-the-future-is-digital-and-female/#757819444a37​
> Fender CEO Andy Mooney: “Gibson’s travails are all of their own making” | MusicRadar



Revenue doesn't mean a company doesn't have debt or isn't losing money. A company can have billions in revenue and still be losing money. Fender does seem to be doing alright though.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

WallMart just announced they will be rolling back prices on Gibson guitars !!!


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Gosh I feel sorry for Henry J. it cant be easy trying to build/grow a multi-million dollar company on the backs of bitchy, know-it-all musicians, many of who struggle just to get to their McJobs on time every morning, but everyone of them would be a better CEO than Henry...just ask them, they'll tell you.

Heres whats wrong with musicians. if a company doesn't try anything new, they call it "stale, boring, derivative". Theres no reason to buy anything new from them. you know, the AC/DC argument.

If a company DOES try new things, tries to set themselves apart from the competition, they get slammed for offering too many choices, or things that are an insult to the purists. Gasp! Something changed! You know, the Van Hagar argument.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Henry may be an ass, and hes certainly made some risky decisions, but on any given day, this is what he had to deal with:




So what I gather from the bazillion threads about Gibson on the net is, Henry is bad because he doesn't give musicians what they want. What they want is, new, innovative guitars that are completely similar to the old ones (the older the better!), and they have to have MSRPs that get lower every year, while the currently owned models appreciate in value.

the real question is, is it Gibson guitars that is the flawed part of the business, or is it the consumer electronics ventures? This is important, because if its the latter, then the know it alls should STFU about the guitar lines, and the comparison to Fender is a moot point. The quick fix is to spin off non-performing parts of the company and break it up. Companies do it all the time. American Chemical Society
Honeywell To Spin-Off Non-Core Assets By End Of 2018

Then, Gibson goes back to making $10k nostalgia editions and pink robo-tuned LP's, and the know it alls are happy again (well, no, they wont be...but they can continue to grumble in irrelevance about how theyd run things better, while stacking pallets in a warehouse).


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Frenchy99 said:


> WallMart just announced they will be rolling back prices on Gibson guitars !!!


Buying from them will make it so much easier to get setups and other technical adjustments done on my guitars.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

georgemg said:


> This might be true for Gibson, but it doesn't seem to be the case for Fender. While Gibson has $520 million in debt, Fender had $500 million in revenue last year. I've included a couple of links to back this up. The short version is Gibson basically abandoned the beginner market while Fender has put a big focus on it, which paid off quite well for them.
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/petercarbonara/2018/03/28/for-fender-guitars-the-future-is-digital-and-female/#757819444a37​
> Fender CEO Andy Mooney: “Gibson’s travails are all of their own making” | MusicRadar


You may be right and I think Fender made a good decision there to help battle against losing market share to the global market. I would doubt the gain was in more expensive guitars, though. It is more likely the Squier line has helped them the most.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Buying from them will make it so much easier to get setups and other technical adjustments done on my guitars.


don't be silly, Stead, we all know you don't play guitar


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

This is what I mean (see above).
Gibson has had plenty of low priced offerings (LP Tributes, Studios, fadeds, etc) that blow away a Squier, MIM etc...and of course a full range of epiphones that line up right beside them. they've covered every base without leaving any gaps in the market, so that cant be what they did wrong and someone else did right.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Diablo said:


> Gosh I feel sorry for Henry J. it cant be easy trying to build/grow a multi-million dollar company on the backs of bitchy, know-it-all musicians, many of who struggle just to get to their McJobs on time every morning, but everyone of them would be a better CEO than Henry...just ask them, they'll tell you.
> 
> Heres whats wrong with musicians. if a company doesn't try anything new, they call it "stale, boring, derivative". Theres no reason to buy anything new from them. you know, the AC/DC argument.
> 
> ...


Abe Simpson is going to save Gibson, I see a lot of his style of wisdom and awareness in this thread...


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Diablo said:


> This is what I mean (see above).
> Gibson has had plenty of low priced offerings (LP Tributes, Studios, fadeds, etc) that blow away a Squier, MIM etc...and of course a full range of epiphones that line up right beside them. they've covered every base without leaving any gaps in the market, so that cant be what they did wrong and someone else did right.


I agree, at least up until the last few years Epiphone has been right there beside Squier. Although lately it seems they are getting expensive, and they've had to bring out cheap garbage Epi Special guitars.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Frenchy99 said:


> WallMart just announced they will be rolling back prices on Gibson guitars !!!


Walmart sells Gibson? That's part of the problem right there.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

georgemg said:


> This might be true for Gibson, but it doesn't seem to be the case for Fender. While Gibson has $520 million in debt, Fender had $500 million in revenue last year. I've included a couple of links to back this up. The short version is Gibson basically abandoned the beginner market while Fender has put a big focus on it, which paid off quite well for them.
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/petercarbonara/2018/03/28/for-fender-guitars-the-future-is-digital-and-female/#757819444a37​
> Fender CEO Andy Mooney: “Gibson’s travails are all of their own making” | MusicRadar


I see this as quite the opposite. Fender has eroded their brand name and cheapened it with low end Fender guitars while Gibson has remained a relatively exclusive brand, leaving the lesser guitars to the Epi name. And has has been explained already, your assessment of 'the numbers' doesn't really mean anything. No one knows the full financial picture.

It's pretty obvious to anyone paying attention that Gibson Guitars isn't the problem. It's the lifestyle brands. I don't think Gibson Guitars is going to change much in the foreseeable future. They aren't going to be built in Asia or anything like that. Not that I care, I already have what I need (and if they did move production, my guitars would only go up in value.....).

I'm still laughing about the idea that Godin has done more to push the edge of guitar design that anyone else. What have they done that's been unique and is now considered iconic? Anyone (as I know Steadly never responds to such challenges - EVER)?

Hell, Gibson did more on that front in 1958 than Godin has done or ever will do. Personally, I'm really glad I didn't buy one of those Flying V or Explorer failures when they first came out. I'd hate to have to make the decision: should I sell my guitar and buy a house. That would be a tough one.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Here is the best guitar Gibson ever made ! 

The Gibson flying V. Special Edition Platinum air guitar. Limited Edition of course !!! 


HNG^%$


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

High/Deaf said:


> I see this as quite the opposite. Fender has eroded their brand name and cheapened it with low end Fender guitars while Gibson has remained a relatively exclusive brand, leaving the lesser guitars to the Epi name. And has has been explained already, your assessment of 'the numbers' doesn't really mean anything. No one knows the full financial picture.
> 
> It's pretty obvious to anyone paying attention that Gibson Guitars isn't the problem. It's the lifestyle brands. I don't think Gibson Guitars is going to change much in the foreseeable future. They aren't going to be built in Asia or anything like that. Not that I care, I already have what I need (and if they did move production, my guitars would only go up in value.....).
> 
> ...


True, everything I've heard supports what you are saying. The next real test for Gibson's longevity is going to be when they get in front of the courts and get a ruling on their plans.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Yea, this isn't going to happen overnight. 

I think some of it is a 'damned if you do' thing. Corporations want to make money, not widgets. Many don't care about the product they produce, they just want more profit for their shareholders. Henry actually cared about the product when he took over from Norlin. I suspect he wasn't acting all by himself in buying up the lifestyles brands.

And it looks to me like everyone in the hi-fi world has gotten killed in the last decade. Who cares about good sound reproduction when you can get a gazzillion MP3 files on your little player. Hi-fi has gone the way of the dodo bird, for the most part. There seems to be more interest in what brand name your car stereo has than what you have in your living room.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

High/Deaf said:


> Yea, this isn't going to happen overnight.
> 
> I think some of it is a 'damned if you do' thing. Corporations want to make money, not widgets. Many don't care about the product they produce, they just want more profit for their shareholders. Henry actually cared about the product when he took over from Norlin. I suspect he wasn't acting all by himself in buying up the lifestyles brands.
> 
> And it looks to me like everyone in the hi-fi world has gotten killed in the last decade. Who cares about good sound reproduction when you can get a gazzillion MP3 files on your little player. Hi-fi has gone the way of the dodo bird, for the most part. There seems to be more interest in what brand name your car stereo has than what you have in your living room.


Wrt good sound equipment I'd say it's because there's a million cheapo BT speakers out there that are all just good enough. When most people listen via headsets, your living room system doesn't matter. It does in the car because you don't use headsets in the car and you can share your beats with your passengers. I think Henry lost the plot. When you are in a position of authority for long enough, to stop listening to voices of reason and your past successes reinforce your current business decisions.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

1SweetRide said:


> Wrt good sound equipment I'd say it's because there's a million cheapo BT speakers out there that are all just good enough. When most people listen via headsets, your living room system doesn't matter. It does in the car because you don't use headsets in the car and you can share your beats with your passengers. I think Henry lost the plot. When you are in a position of authority for long enough, to stop listening to voices of reason and your past successes reinforce your current business decisions.


'Good enough' is a relative term. I don't go to movie theatres any more because movies sound significantly better at home (much to my poor neighbor's chagrine). 

Like the Spanish Inquisition, no one expected the complete collapse of the home entertainment business, IMO. Gibson is far from the only company to experience the downturn.

Funny enough, my car has a Fender branded stereo system. I say 'Fender branded' because in Europe, it's branded as a Dynaudio system (who I assume was actually involved in designing it), a much more prestigious speaker brand name. At least in Europe but apparently not in NA.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

1SweetRide said:


> Wrt good sound equipment I'd say it's because there's a million cheapo BT speakers out there that are all just good enough. When most people listen via headsets, your living room system doesn't matter. It does in the car because you don't use headsets in the car and you can share your beats with your passengers. I think Henry lost the plot. When you are in a position of authority for long enough, to stop listening to voices of reason and your past successes reinforce your current business decisions.


car audio is dead as its all OEM now, usually integrated into the cars other systems, making it diffcult and undesirable to "upgrade". I cant remember the last time I saw someone with an aftermarket deck in a car made past 2004, and there aren't tons of those cars on the road anymore. Going the OEM route will kill your business as the margins will be whittled away by auto manufacturers struggling to stay afloat themselves. Ford to stop producing most cars for North America | Car News | Auto123

who are these "voices of reason" youre referring to, and what do you think they've been telling Henry that hes been ignoring?


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Steadfastly said:


> *Gibson and Fender have been losing market share to the competition* for years. People like Ibanez, PRS, Rondo, GFS, etc., etc. Some people want the original but people are much more informed buyers these days and the internet is responsible in large part. It is so easy to do a comparison and people are comparing and are recognizing that they can get basically the same guitar for less than half the pice elsewhere.
> 
> This happens in most markets, when there are items that are sold enmasse and the competition comes calling wanting a share of that market.


The filing reports that Gibson guitar sales are up 10.5% compared to January 2017 so I don't think your statement is correct.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

1SweetRide said:


> The filing reports that Gibson guitar sales are up 10.5% compared to January 2017 so I don't think your statement is correct.


It may not be. However, that doesn't say anything about market *share*, only sales and it doesn't say whether it is part of the expensive guitars, the cheaper guitars, Epiphone guitars or a combination.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

lulz


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Geezuz. To hell with speculation. Information that is not based on solid, verifiable facts means dick squat!


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

There is a correlation between sales and market share. It is a reasonable to assume an increase in sales will result in a decrease in a competitor's sales.

Unless of course, everyone is buying multitudes of everything.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I found this interesting...

ABOUT GIBSON 

*Gibson Brands*, one the fastest-growing companies in the music and sound industries, was founded in 1894 and is headquartered in Nashville, TN. *Gibson Brands* is a global leader in musical instruments, and consumer and professional audio, and is dedicated to bringing the finest experiences by offering exceptional products with world-recognized brands. Gibson has a portfolio of over 100 well-recognized brand names starting with the number one guitar brand, Gibson. 
*Other brands include: Epiphone, Dobro, Valley Arts, Kramer, Steinberger, Tobias, Slingerland, Maestro, Baldwin, Hamilton, Chickering and Wurlitzer. 
Audio brands include: KRK Systems, TASCAM, Cerwin-Vega!, Stanton, Integra, TEAC, TASCAM Professional Software, and Esoteric.* 
All *Gibson Brands* are dedicated to innovation, prestige and improving the quality of life of our customers.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Now, this is piece of verifiable fact based information...



greco said:


> I found this interesting...
> 
> ABOUT GIBSON
> 
> ...


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

Gibson sells 170,000 guitars worldwide, at an average cost of 2,000.00.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Rick31797 said:


> Gibson sells 170,000 guitars worldwide, at an average cost of 2,000.00.


This quote is not accurate. Source: Gibson guitar maker sees a future with bankruptcy protection

_"It sells more than 170,000 guitars a year in more than 80 countries, including more than 40 per cent of all electric guitars that cost more than $2,000, according to a bankruptcy filing."_


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

1SweetRide said:


> The filing reports that Gibson guitar sales are up 10.5% compared to January 2017 so I don't think your statement is correct.


Up by units moved? or $?
Just wondering...


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

zontar said:


> Up by units moved? or $?
> Just wondering...


I took it to mean units moved but now that you mention it, I'm not sure.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

zontar said:


> Up by units moved? or $?
> Just wondering...


That is a good point. It usually means dollars but it is not 100% clear.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

This report from Music Radar - Gibson files for bankruptcy | MusicRadar

Two points of note:

_*Gibson Brands has filed for bankruptcy, but devised a turnaround plan that will retain the guitars division and give lenders equal ownership of the company, replacing current stockholders, including controversial CEO Henry Juszkiewicz.*_

_*Legendary guitar company announces restructure, aims to sell off consumer electronics division*_


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Here is an earlier article from Music Radar on the Ides Of March (March 15, 2018)

Gibson: how did we get here? | MusicRadar


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## DrumBob (Aug 17, 2014)

vadsy said:


> did any of those Manhattan guys know the percentages on the market share they were taking away from Gibson? was it like 40?


I have no idea and didn't ask. And didn't care honestly.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

An interesting point made by the Guardian helps us understand why new guitar sales are down around the globe.


End of the guitar? Gibson bankruptcy fuels fears for future

*"Reverb.com, an online clearinghouse for musical instruments, will sell between $400m and $500m worth of guitars in 2018, Majeski estimated – “and almost all of them are used”.*


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## DrumBob (Aug 17, 2014)

All this "electric guitar is dead" stuff is nonsense, and it sounds provocative, so journalists run with it to concoct stories. The electric guitar is going nowhere fast. True, musical trends at this moment reflect more use of synthesized sounds, but everything goes in waves. This happened in the 80's also, as synths became popular. It happened with electronic drums and drum machines and people predicted the death of acoustic drums. Those doing the predicting were the people who made Simmons drums and Linn drum machines pretty much. And then they both went out of business, because drummers and record producers finally realized there's nothing like the sound of real drums.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I agree. Such headlines are just moronic click bait.



DrumBob said:


> *All this "electric guitar is dead" stuff is nonsense, and it sounds provocative, so journalists run with it to concoct stories. *The electric guitar is going nowhere fast. True, musical trends at this moment reflect more used of synthesized sounds, but everything goes in waves. This happened in the 80's also, as synths became popular. It happened with electronic drums and drum machines and people predicted the death of acoustic drums. Those doing the predicting were the people who made Simmons drums and Linn drum machines pretty much. And then they both went out of business, because drummers and record producers finally realized there's nothing like the sound of real drums.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> An interesting point made by the Guardian helps us understand why new guitar sales are down around the globe.
> 
> 
> End of the guitar? Gibson bankruptcy fuels fears for future
> ...





DrumBob said:


> All this "electric guitar is dead" stuff is nonsense, and it sounds provocative, so journalists run with it to concoct stories. The electric guitar is going nowhere fast. True, musical trends at this moment reflect more used of synthesized sounds, but everything goes in waves. This happened in the 80's also, as synths became popular. It happened with electronic drums and drum machines and people predicted the death of acoustic drums. Those doing the predicting were the people who made Simmons drums and Linn drum machines pretty much. And then they both went out of business, because drummers and record producers finally realized there's nothing like the sound of real drums.



“Reports of My Death Are Greatly Exaggerated!”
Science Shows Why Drum Machines Will Never Replace Live Drummers


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

DrumBob said:


> All this "electric guitar is dead" stuff is nonsense, and it sounds provocative, so journalists run with it to concoct stories. The electric guitar is going nowhere fast. True, musical trends at this moment reflect more used of synthesized sounds, but everything goes in waves. This happened in the 80's also, as synths became popular. It happened with electronic drums and drum machines and people predicted the death of acoustic drums. Those doing the predicting were the people who made Simmons drums and Linn drum machines pretty much. And then they both went out of business, because drummers and record producers finally realized there's nothing like the sound of real drums.


Good reasoning. I think we all pretty much agree. Definitely not dead, just slowing down a bit.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

This is an interesting quote:


Epiphone said:


> For another point of view on the popularity of the guitar, check out the Apple app store ranking. Last year, an app from Ultimate Guitar on how to learn and play guitar was the second most popular paid app out of the 2.2 million apps it currently offers.


Edit: source of the quote in case anyone missed it: “Reports of My Death Are Greatly Exaggerated!”


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

jdto said:


> This is an interesting quote:


Very interesting.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I figured this would be a USA only thing. Yorkville has the distribution rights all tied up in Canada.

Epiphone Store


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Robert1950 said:


> I figured this would be a USA only thing. Yorkville has the distribution rights all tied up in Canada.


This has always surprised me. Many, many companies used to deal this way with the Canadian business but once NAFTA came into effect, the distributorships fell one after another and companies either became sales agencies or the manufacturers sold direct. Maybe Yorkville is a sales agency rather than a distributor. A distributor buys stock and then resells it. A sales agency just uses their sales and support people to sell and promote a company's product.

Does anyone know if Yorkville actually stocks Gibson product?


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> This has always surprised me. Many, many companies used to deal this way with the Canadian business but once NAFTA came into effect, the distributorships fell one after another and companies either became sales agencies or the manufacturers sold direct. Maybe Yorkville is a sales agency rather than a distributor. A distributor buys stock and then resells it. A sales agency just uses their sales and support people to sell and promote a company's product.
> 
> Does anyone know if Yorkville actually stocks Gibson product?


Their website specifically says "distribution". I believe they import and sell Gibson guitars to Canadian retailers. Given the close family ties between Yorkville Sound and Long & McQuade, it explains why LM has so much emphasis on Gibson products in their stores and marketing.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

jdto said:


> Their website specifically says "distribution". I believe they import and sell Gibson guitars to Canadian retailers. Given the close family ties between Yorkville Sound and Long & McQuade, it explains why LM has so much emphasis on Gibson products in their stores and marketing.


If they do that, JD, it would also explain why Gibson prices are higher in Canada than the USA and why we sometimes see Gibson products sold at Best Buy and Amazon so much cheaper than Canadian Retailers can sell them for as those guys are buying direct from Gibson and don't have to pay the extra markup from a distributor.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Whatever


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> If they do that, JD, it would also explain why Gibson prices are higher in Canada than the USA and why we sometimes see Gibson products sold at Best Buy and Amazon so much cheaper than Canadian Retailers can sell them for as those guys are buying direct from Gibson and don't have to pay the extra markup from a distributor.


Source of your info on BB and Amazon buying direct?

((I know, I know, there isn't one))


----------



## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> If they do that, JD, it would also explain why Gibson prices are higher in Canada than the USA and why we sometimes see Gibson products sold at Best Buy and Amazon so much cheaper than Canadian Retailers can sell them for as those guys are buying direct from Gibson and don't have to pay the extra markup from a distributor.


I think they are the exclusive distributor in Canada. If those companies have Gibson Brands products, they would get them via Yorkville. I think I read that somewhere, but I’ll have to do a quick bit of searching to corroborate my (admittedly faulty) memory.

Edit: yup, it says “exclusive” in this press release.
Yorkville



> Yorkville Sound has a long and highly successful relationship Gibson Corporation, having been the exclusive Canadian distributor for the Gibson and Epiphone guitar lines since the late 1980's.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

keto said:


> Source of your info on BB and Amazon buying direct?
> 
> ((I know, I know, there isn't one))


They are US companies. It's a no brainer. I'm surprised you even asked.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> They are US companies. It's a no brainer. I'm surprised you even asked.


If there is an exclusive regional distribution contract, don’t you think they’d still have to get the guitars they sell in Canada through Yorkville?


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

bestbuy was buying direct from Gibson. 
Steaders is right. 
I don't see any Gibson in Best Buy anymore though.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

jdto said:


> This is an interesting quote:
> 
> 
> Edit: source of the quote in case anyone missed it: “Reports of My Death Are Greatly Exaggerated!”


Hmm, maybe I did miss it...


----------



## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Now, if someone checks the Best Buy Canada site, you will see that most of the Epiphone models are sold and shipped from Cosmos Music for Best Buy Canada. The prices are the same as L&M. Cosmo, like any other Cdn retailer would get them YORKVILLE. Oddly the only Gibson online at Best Buy is a '64 ES345 VOS in Seafoam Green for $5,549 

Electric Guitars : Guitars & Accessories - Best Buy Canada

Geezuz !!!!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

jdto said:


> If there is an exclusive regional distribution contract, don’t you think they’d still have to get the guitars they sell in Canada through Yorkville?


No, they are way too big for that. The guitars get put on the truck with everything else that gets delivered to the stores. If they came through Canada, they wouldn't even bother putting them in the stores.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Steadfastly said:


> No, they are way too big for that. The guitars get put on the truck with everything else that gets delivered to the stores. If they came through Canada, they wouldn't even bother putting them in the stores.


Wut.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

zontar said:


> Hmm, maybe I did miss it...


I got it from your post 

I thought it’d be better to make sure I provided a source for my quote from your article to avoid confusion.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Robert1950 said:


> Now, if someone checks the Best Buy Canada site, you will see that most of the Epiphone models are sold and shipped from Cosmos Music for Best Buy Canada. The prices are the same as L&M. Cosmo, like any other Cdn retailer would get them YORKVILLE. Oddly the only Gibson online at Best Buy is a '64 ES345 VOS in Seafoam Green for $5,549
> 
> Electric Guitars : Guitars & Accessories - Best Buy Canada
> 
> Geezuz !!!!


Except that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about stock in their stores at blowout prices and Amazon. They definitely did not come from Cosmos Music, Robert.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> Except that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about stock in their stores at blowout prices and Amazon. They definitely did not come from Cosmos Music, Robert.


I would have to do RESEARCH for the blowout prices, where the stock came from, solid data on why they are selling at blowout prices. No speculation what-so-fucking-ever. But since I really don't have the interest in spending anymore time one this since I do have life, other things that are more interesting. Nice conditions for photography today.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

jdto said:


> I got it from your post
> 
> I thought it’d be better to make sure I provided a source for my quote from your article to avoid confusion.


I know just having fun--and used a smilie
(And I saw you used one as well)

But hey good article...


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Mike Robinson's thoughts (Eastwood Guitars )

Also some guitar industry thoughts & stuff about greed


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## luker0 (Apr 18, 2017)

Steadfastly said:


> They are US companies. It's a no brainer. I'm surprised you even asked.


That's not the way distribution works. 

Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

luker0 said:


> That's not the way distribution works.
> 
> Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk


What is your summation based on. I spent many years with an American company and then as a sales person bringing in and re-selling US goods and then as a sales agent for US goods.


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## madhermit (Dec 31, 2017)

Yorkville is the Canadian distributor for Gibson/Epiphone and has been for decades. All guitars brought in lawfully and sold in Canada come through them. Cosmo, Axe, LA Music, all have to buy from Yorkville. That is their agreement with Gibson.
Source - worked for them for years.

But if you buy online from an American seller, it will bypass all that. But then you may have CITES hassles.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

madhermit said:


> Yorkville is the Canadian distributor for Gibson/Epiphone and has been for decades. All guitars brought in lawfully and sold in Canada come through them. Cosmo, Axe, LA Music, all have to buy from Yorkville. That is their agreement with Gibson.
> Source - worked for them for years.
> 
> *But if you buy online from an American seller, it will bypass all that.* But then you may have CITES hassles.


Correct and Gibson isn't going to raise a stink with a large US buyer over a few guitars coming in the back door in Canada. I doubt Yorkville would either. They likely understand this thing happens in business when two countries are side by side and do a lot of business back and forth. 

It seem from your post above that Yorkville actually stocked Gibson guitars and then resold them. Is that how it worked or did Gibson drop ship them to the retailers?


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## madhermit (Dec 31, 2017)

Steadfastly said:


> Correct and Gibson isn't going to raise a stink with a large US buyer over a few guitars coming in the back door in Canada. I doubt Yorkville would either. They likely understand this thing happens in business when two countries are side by side and do a lot of business back and forth.
> 
> It seem from your post above that Yorkville actually stocked Gibson guitars and then resold them. Is that how it worked or did Gibson drop ship them to the retailers?


Yorkville distributed to all Canadian Gibson dealers including Long & McQuade. Essentially they made money on all sales in Canada at a distributor level, and made extra on any sold through L&M. The warehouse is in Pickering just off the 401. I don’t think they sell direct, but if you buy online at L&M, it ships from the warehouse from what I understand.

Yorkville is the parent company of L&M, Apex, Traynor, (maybe a few others and ART I think). My paycheques came labelled from Yorkville when I worked at L&M.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

madhermit said:


> Yorkville distributed to all Canadian Gibson dealers including Long & McQuade. Essentially they made money on all sales in Canada at a distributor level, and made extra on any sold through L&M. The warehouse is in Pickering just off the 401. I don’t think they sell direct, but if you buy online at L&M, it ships from the warehouse from what I understand.
> 
> Yorkville is the parent company of L&M, Apex, Traynor, (maybe a few others and ART I think). My paycheques came labelled from Yorkville when I worked at L&M.


Very interesting. They must be one of the last companies doing business this way. Back in the 1980's things started to change. Many companies were stocking US product and reselling it in Canada. Then companies starting using sales agencies and sometimes their own sales people and selling direct. Canadian companies realized they could buy product a lot cheaper by paying for the transportation and brokerage fees themselves and slowly but surely the competition had to follow suit in order not to lose sales. One of the companies I sold for was stocking almost all their product and reselling the product in Canada and had a very small part of the market because they couldn't compete pricewise with the competition. I tried to explain this to my boss but he was only the son of the owner who had started the business and didn't understand how things were changing. We parted ways and when I saw him about 8 years later he told me he had closed his warehouse and was now just a sales agency. 

Yorkville must have quite a good deal with Gibson to carry on business this way. Perhaps with the volume they can afford to keep there profit margins low but this partially explains why Gibson product is usually so much more in Canada than buying in the USA.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> product is usually so much more in Canada than buying in the USA.


Can you provide documentation, numbers?


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I just looked at one particular guitar The Gibson Les Paul Studio Smokehouse Burst.. Sweetwater USA - $1649US. L&M $1799Cdn. At the current rate of exchange This guitar at L&M costs $1403US. This one example, @Steadfastly - suggests your claim may warrant further investigation and fact based clarification. I have other things to do right now rather than go into this further, I making a English style baked rices pudding .

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LPST18KHCH--gibson-les-paul-studio-2018-smokehouse-burst

Gibson - 2018 Les Paul Studio - Smokehouse Burst


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Robert1950 said:


> I'm making a English style baked rice pudding .


Please save some...I'll be arriving on the 10:00 p.m. flight.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Robert1950 said:


> I just looked at one particular guitar The Gibson Les Paul Studio Smokehouse Burst.. Sweetwater USA - $1649US. L&M $1799Cdn. At the current rate of exchange This guitar at L&M costs $1403US. This one example, @Steadfastly - suggests your claim may warrant further investigation and fact based clarification. I have other things to do right now rather than go into this further, I making a English style baked rices pudding .
> 
> https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LPST18KHCH--gibson-les-paul-studio-2018-smokehouse-burst
> 
> Gibson - 2018 Les Paul Studio - Smokehouse Burst


There are always exceptions to everything. Remember too that this is old stock and the exchange rate was different then. Also, L & M doesn't offer the discounts and no tax that you can get if you are visiting the States. That's another 28-30%.

BTW, do you do chocolate cake?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Robert1950 said:


> Can you provide documentation, numbers?


I am guessing you are very nationalistic.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

The smokehouse burst is a 2018 model


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Steadfastly said:


> I am guessing you are very nationalistic.


....and I am guessing you will never need the health care system, or old age pension, or national parks, or highways and other infrastructure, or the CBC, or ...........


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)




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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Never gets old. Never.


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## SaucyJack (Mar 8, 2017)

lol...first time I've seen that.


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## Hammertone (Feb 3, 2006)

High/Deaf said:


> ....and I am guessing you will never need the health care system, or old age pension, or national parks, or highways and other infrastructure, or the CBC, or ...........


I'd be happy to live without the CBC.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Hammertone said:


> I'd be happy to live without the CBC.


Simple, don't watch it.


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## Hammertone (Feb 3, 2006)

I already don't watch it or listen to it. I'm talking about not paying for it.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Hammertone said:


> I'd be happy to live without the CBC.


I am NOT. Want to torture me, make watch,..._American,_...news


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

sulphur said:


> Simple, don't watch it.


I only watch live sporting events on the CBC and I get the news on CBC.ca. I watch very little TV anyway.


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

Getting back to Gibson, here's an interview video I watched on YouTube last night with new Gibson Guitar CEO James 'JC' Curleigh on Jonesy's Jukebox. You'll notice James does most of the talking.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Robert1950 said:


>


Bruno Ganz, who played Hitler in that film (and who will live on in the numerous "Hitler" Youtubes), passed away yesterday. I don't know if he wanted to be remembered for all the gear-related and rock-related videos that single scene spawned. The BBC obituary notes:

"His most famous role, however, was as Adolf Hitler in Downfall. One particular scene depicting Hitler in apoplectic fury became a meme and spawned thousands of parodies online."

Downfall's Hitler actor Bruno Ganz dies


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2019)

It would be a drag for him if when he gets to the pearly gates he is mistaken for Hitler, and sent to the basement.


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