# Tele tuner swap! Going oldschool



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

First off, my Next Gen order arrived a day early. Gotta love that!

I bought a set of Gotoh SD91's and adapter bushings to replace the graphtech ratios on my Ayr tele. I am hoping this solves my string pull problem!


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

3 years later and I think Im only now seeing the bridge alignment is off?


----------



## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

Update; You may need stagged tuner

Bridge off alignment ! Very good guitar builder , how much are these guitars ?

Ayr guitars are custom made in Stanley St. Ayr, Ontario, Canada. Ayr guitar Canada.


----------



## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

What do you mean by 'string pull problem'? 
I have those ratios and actually great with my Goldtop.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Chito said:


> What do you mean by 'string pull problem'?
> I have those ratios and actually great with my Goldtop.


No downforce because they are locking. 5th string barely keeps it together. Didnt put 2 and 2 together til the strat with klusons came in.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Have you used vintage style (split shaft) tuners before?

They should correct the break angle and help keep the strings down in the nut, but it’s just a matter of the current tuners having shafts that are too long.

You don’t have to go quite that old school to solve that problem.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Have you used vintage style (split shaft) tuners before?
> 
> They should correct the break angle and help keep the strings down in the nut, but it’s just a matter of the current tuners having shafts that are too long.
> 
> You don’t have to go quite that old school to solve that problem.


Iirc split shaft is the oldest of the schools is it not? I have them on my jazzmaster and like them as well. This tuner has a good rep and cost me $50 so I went for it (and finally buy from next gen haha).

My house has all tuner types!3


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Budda said:


> Iirc split shaft is the oldest of the schools is it not? I have them on my jazzmaster and like them as well. This tuner has a good rep and cost me $5



Yes, among the oldest I think.

All I meant was that you cauld solve that break angle with normal Schallers, Grovers, even Fender Staggared tuners, Wilkinsons, et cetera.

I only asked because some people don't care for the vintage style string installation method.

If you've used them and liked them, you'll have no concerns.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Yes, among the oldest I think.
> 
> All I meant was that you cauld solve that break angle with normal Schallers, Grovers, even Fender Staggared tuners, Wilkinsons, et cetera.
> 
> ...


Yeah these ones are the split shaft style. Not sure why people hate on 'em to be honest.


----------



## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

I hated split shafts for the first 2-3 string changes. Them I figured them out and fell in love with them. I intend to eventually convert all of mine soon.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

For me it's just that over the years, I tried a variety of methods of installing strings and finally landed on the mandolin method as the most stable and secure. The vintage style tuners basically prevent that method.

Lots of people use and love the vintage style tuners.


----------



## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

If you were to allow for a couple more winds on the pegs, you’d have a better break angle at the nut.

I still support using vintage tuning machine heads because I find them to be lighter in weight and pretty.


----------



## numb41 (Jul 13, 2009)

I love the split shaft tuners. My favourite.


----------



## Verne (Dec 29, 2018)

I like the split shaft because I find them faster and easier to restring with. I also like the look of them.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

So, are they installed? Problem solved?


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Milkman said:


> So, are they installed? Problem solved?


No, I have to drill for the tuner screws and Im not set up to do that unfortunately. Taking it to my guy tomorrow.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Budda said:


> No, I have to drill for the tuner screws and Im not set up to do that unfortunately. Taking it to my guy tomorrow.


10-4

I can see why you were looking for some Tusq retainers also. It looks to me like the break angle on your D string is too sharp and that means the same is true for your G string.

Once you replace those tuners with the new ones and raise those retainers a little, you'll think you just received a new guitar.

Have fun. Let us know how it turns out for you.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Im hoping it ties the room together haha.


----------



## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

Budda said:


> No, I have to drill for the tuner screws and Im not set up to do that unfortunately. Taking it to my guy tomorrow.


my secret technique is to place them in perfectly aligned and then make a lil dot where the holes should be and then I use a very small drill on a dremmel with a little piece of tape as a depth measure. Very slowly make little pilots at the best 90 degree you can make.

From there take the little pile of sh** one use Phillips head screws and scrape the business end of them in wax (vanilla scented) as lube and screw them 90% of them way down with all of the machine heads in place. Recheck that they are all perfectly aligned and then sink. Just finger tight.

It took me a long time to figure out how to do this without fecking it up.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Always12AM said:


> From there take the little pile of sh** one use Phillips head screws and scrape the business end of them in wax (vanilla scented) as lube


That's a pretty handy tip.

I keep a bar of Dove hand soap on the workbench for that. I use it for tuner screws, neck screws, trem claw screws....

If you've ever had to extract one of those little fu#%ers after twisting the head off.


----------



## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

Milkman said:


> That's a pretty handy tip.
> 
> I keep a bar of Dove hand soap on the workbench for that. I use it for tuner screws, neck screws, trem claw screws....
> 
> If you've ever had to extract one of those little fu#%ers after twisting the head off.


The first thing I do when I buy and amp or guitar is to remove the most commonly used screws, rear panel, pickguard etc and wax them and it really saves the life of the hardware as well as preserves the structural integrity of the route.

Never though of soap, but that would also do the trick! If you ever buy an amp or guitar or piece of hardware and it smells like vanilla or movie popcorn when you service it, it was probably once mine lol.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

And it's back! My tech also managed to nudge the bridge saddles to line up properly, so that's a big +1.

First impressions: the break angle looks right, and the 9's feel like 9's (.990-1" U neck). I will have to monitor over time, but I feel like the body is resonating on open chords a bit. I don't know if it's the improved string setup, bridge saddle alignment or both, but the bridge pickup no longer sounds like a bit of a solo boost which is nice.

Overall I'm pretty happy with the change!


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Budda said:


> And it's back! My tech also managed to nudge the bridge saddles to line up properly, so that's a big +1.
> 
> First impressions: the break angle looks right, and the 9's feel like 9's (.990-1" U neck). I will have to monitor over time, but I feel like the body is resonating on open chords a bit. I don't know if it's the improved string setup, bridge saddle alignment or both, but the bridge pickup no longer sounds like a bit of a solo boost which is nice.
> 
> Overall I'm pretty happy with the change!



I'm not surprised the guitar rings and resonates better with the strings held firmly in the nut. A couple of them were barely seated.

Glad it worked out for you.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I'm not surprised the guitar rings and resonates better with the strings held firmly in the nut. A couple of them were barely seated.
> 
> Glad it worked out for you.


Just wish i thought of it sooner!


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Budda said:


> Just wish i thought of it sooner!


Well, it should be a fundamental improvement. Even unplugged, such a correction will often transform a guitar.

If they don't ring clear acoustically they will never sound great electrically. 

Any time I build one, that's that's sort of a benchline I have to have. They have to ring clearly and intonate well before I even start wiring them up.

That's just my opinion as always.

In my mind I would see it as almost a new guitar.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

It's getting there! Still struggling with refinish plans at this point. Thought I had it ironed down but "you get what you pay for" is in my head.

Edit: quick google shows a P bass build with 10 coats danish oil and 10 coats gunstock oil that is exactly the look I want. Now, who can do that for me haha.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Always12AM said:


> If you were to allow for a couple more winds on the pegs, you’d have a better break angle at the nut.


Sure, at the cost of tuning stability. 2-3 times around max.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Sure, at the cost of tuning stability. 2-3 times around max.


?


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Budda said:


> ?


The more times you wrap the string around the post the more stretch the string has to slowly release over time (both the metal itself, there being more of it, as well as the winds tightening up on the post under tension, more of those too). Go around enough times and it'll never be stable, even with a hard tail just gotta tune after every song.

Ideally you get those wraps on there tight to begin with (you can never do it tight enough, but there's better and worse here) and stretch the strings either manually as you mount them, or tuning up a step or 2 and leaving overnight before intonating. I'm sure there's a few other methods.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Granny Gremlin said:


> The more times you wrap the string around the post the more stretch the string has to slowly release over time (both the metal itself, there being more of it, as well as the winds tightening up on the post under tension, more of those too). Go around enough times and it'll never be stable, even with a hard tail just gotta tune after every song.
> 
> Ideally you get those wraps on there tight to begin with (you can never do it tight enough, but there's better and worse here) and stretch the strings either manually as you mount them, or tuning up a step or 2 and leaving overnight before intonating. I'm sure there's a few other methods.


Yes, all good and true.

This is also why with locking tuners and when using the mandolin method, only one wrap is needed.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Milkman said:


> Yes, all good and true.
> 
> This is also why with locking tuners and when using the mandolin method, only one wrap is needed.


Exactly.


----------



## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Sure, at the cost of tuning stability. 2-3 times around max.


This is the OP’s provided photo:










Now revisit my comment and consider if what I am saying makes sense.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Always12AM said:


> This is the OP’s provided photo:
> 
> View attachment 377462
> 
> ...


I'm afraid not.

The way those strings are installed is correct as recommended. They are locking tuners.

Yes, adding more wraps WOULD improve the break angle and improve the strings being seated in the nut, but would probably also create a significant tuning problem.


----------



## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

Milkman said:


> I'm afraid not.
> 
> The way those strings are installed is correct as recommended.
> 
> Yes, adding more wraps WOULD improve the break angle and improve the strings being seated in the nut, but would probably also create a significant tuning problem.


Well, I will add this to the long list of reasons that I think locking tuners chug butt water.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Always12AM said:


> Well, I will add this to the long list of reasons that I think locking tuners chug butt water.



Well, I agree they aren't really necessary, but too many winds on ANY tuner is one of the no nos when you're trying to reduce tuning woes.

I think most set up men and luthiers alike will agree.

Correct me if I'm wrong folks.


----------



## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

Milkman said:


> Well, I agree they aren't really necessary, but too many winds on ANY tuner is one of the no nos when you're trying to reduce tuning woes.
> 
> I think most set up men and luthiers alike will agree.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong folks.


Again, you and Granny Gremlin may want to visit the original comment that I made which is that the OP may want to add at the very least a single wind to their tuners based on their specific issues outlined in their post.

I am not suggesting 15 winds which is what both of you are eluding to in contradicting both my advice and your own.

Perhpas there is some no wind locking tuner revelation that you have discovered.. I have found that 2 winds is the sweet spot on both locking, split shaft and regular through shaft tuners.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Always12AM said:


> Again, you and Granny Gremlin may want to visit the original comment that I made which is that the OP may want to add at the very least a single wind to their tuners based on their specific issues outlined in their post.
> 
> I am not suggesting 15 winds which is what both of you are eluding to in contradicting both my advice and your own.
> 
> Perhpas there is some no wind locking tuner revelation that you have discovered.. I have found that 2 winds is the sweet spot on both locking, split shaft and regular through shaft tuners.


Ok, let's get nit picky. It's hot.

You said "a couple more winds"

Looking at that picture, I'd say it would take three or four more winds on those tuners to come close to correcting that break angle (pretty severe).



Onward.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Always12AM said:


> This is the OP’s provided photo:
> 
> View attachment 377462
> 
> ...


Once more around won't make a huge diff, any more than that is not advisable IMHO. Defeats the purpose of locking tuners.

The point is moot - he already got new tuners with shorter posts. I do still think it was worthwhile to point out that too many winds is bad, without it being a personal attack. I mean I did say no more then 2-3 and the pic is clearly 1/2 to 1 (I looked before I posted) because locking tuners allow that little without slippage (I just don't like them for other reasons). 

Like seriously I see guitarists all the time who don't know this stuff so it's bears repeating. For the young lurkers out there.


----------



## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Once more around won't make a huge diff, any more than that is not advisable IMHO. Defeats the purpose of locking tuners.
> 
> The point is moot - he already got new tuners with shorter posts. I do still think it was worthwhile to point out that too many winds is bad, without it being a personal attack. I mean I did say no more then 2-3 and the pic is clearly 1/2 to 1 (I looked before I posted) because locking tuners allow that little without slippage (I just don't like them for other reasons).
> 
> Like seriously I see guitarists all the time who don't know this stuff so it's bears repeating. For the young lurkers out there.


I agree that it’s useful to share useful information.
I also think that the 2 wind suggestion was equally as useful coming from me originally as it was coming from both you and milkman.

The fact that I am taking time to discuss locking tuners on the internet right now is really the only thing I’d change about my life if I had a magic wand.


----------

