# Hook me up with a model(ler)



## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Ok, so due to some noise-related problems, our band is looking for a silent-jamming option. We're currently seriously considering the Jamhub, because it seems to be a great all-in-one solution for rehearsing and even recording some fledgling tracks. We also have V-Drum kit, so it makes it a no-brainer. 

The only issue is that I need to plug into this thing quietly, so mic'ing my cab isn't an option. I don't have a direct out either. I'm planning on temporarily just plugging straight in after my pedalboard, but I realize that that's going to sound fairly assy. 

What's out there in the digital modelling world that I can use that's going to be able to do the following:

1) Give me a good Marshall JTM sound - this is my main amp and I first and foremost need a good, serviceable JTM tone. Having additional amp tones is a bonus, but not necessary.
2) Effects loop out for my DD-20
3) Footswitchable volume boost to emulate taking solos -> not 100% necessary, I can use a pedal to boost the signal in the effects loop, but this would help.

That's basically it. I'm a fairly meat-and-potatoes guy when it comes to my guitar gear. I play crunchy, boost for solos and add delay here and there.

So what's out there? And yes, I DO want an AxeFx, but I can't afford it, so please don't tempt me to sell a kidney any more than I already am.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

First off, you need to remember that the tone will be largely a function of the headphones, and not the model or even the headphone distribution amp. 
Second, you need to remember that a big part of your JTM sound is coming from the speaker cab, and head^phons of any quality will leave something missing if the guitar is not passing through the entire amp in some fashion on the way to your ears.
Third, consider that this is a jamming/practice-oriented application primarily.

One of the key aspects to any headphone-based collective listening system is that nobody can stroll away from their amp over to somewhere else to achieve a better audition balance. That means that each person has to be able to independently adjust the level of the other contributors in their headphones, without impacting on other people's personal headphone balance/mix. That's a big part of what the Jamhub is intended for.

To some extent, a great many mixers allow you to do this, by providing separate submixes, which can then be directed to individual headphone amps. It is rare, however, that anything providing the number of independent submixes required for a band practice would be competitive in cost with a Jamhub.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

I would loke for the Line 6 M9 or M13, they are pretty nice! The only Line 6 product I like wich is really big 'cause I generally hate their stuff!


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## Fader (Mar 10, 2009)

Hammer is dead on. Get decent headphones, something that you can wear for three or four hours. You're going to need closed back if you're going to get near a mic.

I too am casting a discerning eye at the Jamhub. But I'm also considering mixer/headphone amps.

I have an old Digitech GNX3000 that does just about everything you mentioned. (It doesn't have an effects loop.) But it sounds more "organic" that the new RP units I think. They did a nice job on it. It has a built in stomp box and you can flip through differing amps and such. But it's discontinued, I picked mine up used on Kijiji.

Get the headphones first, then go shopping with them and your guitar. I liked the Vox Tonelab, but the price scared me off.


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## the-patient (May 19, 2009)

Check out the new Line6 Pod HD series!

They were just released and as a long time pod hater I'm happy to say these are a HUGE improvement. 

They're actually somewhat comparable to the axefx, though not as powerful. 

Anyway, even if you've hated the pod i recommend giving these a shot, they're the best reasonably priced modeler on the market. 

The m9 and 13 won't work in the context because they only model pedals. It would be akin to plugging a distortion pedal in direct, ie terrible. 

Good luck!


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Not a digital modeller but I have a Custom Tones Ethos TLE pedal for sale that might work for you. Two channels with a boost. No loop but I think you could just run your delay in front of it.

Ethos Overdrive Guitar Pedal


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2010)

If you like the sound of your amp what about using a Palmer PGA-03 or a PDI-03 with it? I really like the PGA-04 when I had it. Very handy bit of kit and it sounds good to great depending on how you use it. You'll need some reverb to add ambience to it otherwise it'll be dry, dry, dry in the cans.

Also a second for the new HD-series Line6 boxes. The HD500 will let you load in custom impulse responses which can open up a whole world of wow when you're trying to nail a particular sound. You can use third party IRs like the Redwirez IRs to get sounds that are much closer to your own gear than the stock IRs the units ship with. I use the Redwirez with the AxeFx and love them.

The M9/M13 route could work if you paired them with something like a CTE TLE like Sneaky suggests or even one of the character series pedals from Tech21. This is a nice, low tech route and a bunch fo AxeFx owners I know carry an M9 + a Tech21 pedal as a backup rig. Considering doing the same myself.

Another option is to look at the Digitech GSP1101 -- I hear they're very good and they can be had for not a lot of scratch. Mind you, what I've heard from them has been high gain stuff.

And then there's the 11R from Avid/Digidesign -- which sort of straddles the ground between the Line6/Digitech stuff and the AxeFx stuff. I spent a good hour with an 11R at L&M here and I'm impressed. I love the integration with ProTools. It makes reamping quite simple. And the models, which not extensive, are all well done.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

mhammer said:


> First off, you need to remember that the tone will be largely a function of the headphones, and not the model or even the headphone distribution amp.
> Second, you need to remember that a big part of your JTM sound is coming from the speaker cab, and head^phons of any quality will leave something missing if the guitar is not passing through the entire amp in some fashion on the way to your ears.
> Third, consider that this is a jamming/practice-oriented application primarily.


I'll be using my trusty Sennheiser HD-280s for cans. I imagine they'll work just fine since they're my main cans for recording and general listening as well.

As for the JTM sound, I don't necessarily need an exact replica, but since it's the sound I use and am most familiar with, I'd like a decent representation of it. I realize for practice I don't need to go over-the-top, but I'd like to get close to what my main sound is like.

As for the speakers, that partly why I want a decent modeller, so I can get the "sound" of a nice cab in the mix. I'm not expecting it to sound as rich and full as my amp cranked up, but an approximation will do.



iaresee said:


> If you like the sound of your amp what about using a Palmer PGA-03 or a PDI-03 with it? I really like the PGA-04 when I had it. Very handy bit of kit and it sounds good to great depending on how you use it. You'll need some reverb to add ambience to it otherwise it'll be dry, dry, dry in the cans.
> 
> Also a second for the new HD-series Line6 boxes. The HD500 will let you load in custom impulse responses which can open up a whole world of wow when you're trying to nail a particular sound. You can use third party IRs like the Redwirez IRs to get sounds that are much closer to your own gear than the stock IRs the units ship with. I use the Redwirez with the AxeFx and love them.
> 
> ...


Regarding the dry sound, I think the Jamhub has an effects bin where I can dial in some reverb.

I've been thinking about the Tech21 British actually. It would be perfect if it had an effects loop and a boost, but I'm thinking it might still work.

It has speaker emulation, but does that mean it has to be the last thing in the chain before I plug-in? Or can I stick my delay and a boost after it and still benefit from the speaker emulation? I read online that it does the JTM thing pretty well and in terms of price, it's right there.

There's also the Radial Bones line, which features a boost, but it looks like it's just a plain old stompbox, no speaker emulation.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Also, I'll look into the Line 6 Pod HD. I had some experience with the older Vox Tonelab and Line 6 Pod and wasn't really thrilled with them too much, but maybe I'll like them better now.


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## Decibel Guitars (Oct 14, 2010)

On a related note, you might also want to think about getting some good earplugs. I was using Etymotic High-Fidelity earplugs for a few years, and they're fantastic, but i found that after wearing them for a couple of hours, they weren't very comfortable, so i invested in a set of custom-molded Musicians' earplugs.

They were about $200, and you have to go to an audiologist to get the earmolds made, but i look at it as an investment in my hearing. I'd like to be enjoying music for the rest of my life, and having conversations without having to shout.  They're also WAY more comfortable than any off-the-shelf hearing protection. 

Every musician should be using hearing protection.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

iaresee said:


> Also a second for the new HD-series Line6 boxes. The HD500 will let you load in custom impulse responses which can open up a whole world of wow when you're trying to nail a particular sound. You can use third party IRs like the Redwirez IRs to get sounds that are much closer to your own gear than the stock IRs the units ship with. I use the Redwirez with the AxeFx and love them.


Is it only the HD500 that allows this, or will the HD300 do it too? I don't really need the bells and whistles of the 500.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2010)

hollowbody said:


> Is it only the HD500 that allows this, or will the HD300 do it too? I don't really need the bells and whistles of the 500.


Only the HD500 allows loading third party IRs. With others you're stuck with Line6 amp packs.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2010)

hollowbody said:


> As for the JTM sound, I don't necessarily need an exact replica, but since it's the sound I use and am most familiar with, I'd like a decent representation of it. I realize for practice I don't need to go over-the-top, but I'd like to get close to what my main sound is like.


It's good to have a baseline sound like this in mind when you're modeler shopping. It can help narrow down what you like in a marketplace with a ton of choice.



> As for the speakers, that partly why I want a decent modeller, so I can get the "sound" of a nice cab in the mix. I'm not expecting it to sound as rich and full as my amp cranked up, but an approximation will do.


The Palmer sounds very good. If you like you're amp, that's a way to keep using it. About as expensive as a modeler. $660 new from Saved By Technology, but you can find them used in the $4-500 range.



> Regarding the dry sound, I think the Jamhub has an effects bin where I can dial in some reverb.


Ah right. Of course. Cool.



> I've been thinking about the Tech21 British actually. It would be perfect if it had an effects loop and a boost, but I'm thinking it might still work.
> 
> It has speaker emulation, but does that mean it has to be the last thing in the chain before I plug-in? Or can I stick my delay and a boost after it and still benefit from the speaker emulation? I read online that it does the JTM thing pretty well and in terms of price, it's right there.


So speaker emulation is just one way of saying "we have a bit of a fancy EQ you can engage that acts sort of like how a guitar speaker acts, cutting the highs and the lows from the signal". At least, that is what it means in the context of the all-analog Tech21 pedals. In digital pedals it usually means impulse responses are used which, yes are just EQ curves, but they're very fancy and when created properly are incredibly good filter curves of the source filter.

All that is to say: no, the Tech21 pedal doesn't have to be last in the chain. You can run it after some dirt, but before your delay if you want. The only trouble you might run in to is impedance matching between pedal outputs, but I believe the instrument input on the JamHub is high impedance -- meant to look more like the input on an amp than a line input on a mixer. So it should work with any pedal feeding it.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

iaresee said:


> The Palmer sounds very good. If you like you're amp, that's a way to keep using it. About as expensive as a modeler. $660 new from Saved By Technology, but you can find them used in the $4-500 range.


Yeah, that's a bit more than I want to spend at this point for a practice solution. If I wanted something that really nailed the sound I'm after for live applications as well or for recording, I'd be more likely to spend more, but right now it's just not worth it to me.



iaresee said:


> So speaker emulation is just one way of saying "we have a bit of a fancy EQ you can engage that acts sort of like how a guitar speaker acts, cutting the highs and the lows from the signal". At least, that is what it means in the context of the all-analog Tech21 pedals. In digital pedals it usually means impulse responses are used which, yes are just EQ curves, but they're very fancy and when created properly are incredibly good filter curves of the source filter.
> 
> All that is to say: no, the Tech21 pedal doesn't have to be last in the chain. You can run it after some dirt, but before your delay if you want. The only trouble you might run in to is impedance matching between pedal outputs, but I believe the instrument input on the JamHub is high impedance -- meant to look more like the input on an amp than a line input on a mixer. So it should work with any pedal feeding it.


That's what I figured; thanks for clearing that up for me, Ian! I think what I'll do is grab the Tech 21 British pedal for now and use it between my TS9 and my DD20 and see how that goes. If that doesn't really work out, I'll just take it back and look into something like the Line 6 HD board.

The Digitech processor and the 11R both look really interesting, but having to add a control board makes them kinda pricey for now, and again, a bit more than I need. I figure if I decide I need more flexibility or functionality than the Tech 21 give me, the Pod HD will probably do it. If I really decide I like the modelling route (gasp!) for the price I'll have to dump on the Digitech or Digidesign, I might as well save up a couple more pennies and go whole-hog with the AxeFx.


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## discomalaria (Feb 17, 2010)

Not sure if you checked it out yet, but the Adrenalinn series of mfx units are supposedly really good at modelling specific amps/sounds. I use one in my setup, but since I have no experience with any of the modelled amps I'm not sure how convincing they actually are. They sound good to me though. Unforuantely, no fx loop (you'd have to use an external mixer or something for that capability). I think it has a JTM emulation as well.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Thanks everyone for the recommendations. 

I ended up going with a Tech 21 British pedal, because it was the best cost vs. current-needs option out there.

I used it at practice yesterday night and all I have to say is...wow. I've never been an amp-modeler kinda guy. I've always been of the belief that nothing sounds like a nice amp cranked up, but this Tech 21 pedal is out of this world. In terms of tone, it's got a great crunchy vibe on both the neck and bridge pickups of my Les Paul and my Esquire absolutely SINGS through it. I basically had a stupid grin on my face the entire time last night.

Caveat: we're using it through a jamhub, which is a headphone monitoring system to allow for near-silent practices. I've also run it plugged into my PC via an M-Audio 410 unit and that sounded great too. I haven't run it into a PA yet, so I don't know how it'll sound through that, but based on what I've heard so far, I'm sure it will be brilliant.

The only thing I need to sort out is that my TS9 fully cranked doesn't seem to give me a louder 'solo' sound. I get more saturation and sustain, but not more volume. This isn't a huge issue, since it's just practice and I'm sure my other bandmates are turning me down in the mix anyway and I can hear myself just fine. I might eliminate using the TS9 entirely unless I can figure out a way to make it work (or another pedal), but again, it's not a huge deal.

Overall, I gotta say I'm impressed with what Tech 21 has done (Jamhub as well). Both products are awesome. I'll probably post reviews of each as soon as I have a bit more experience with them and the glowing honeymoon is over


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## Guest (Oct 20, 2010)

Very cool.

The beauty of the modeler running direct is it's what you hear is what you get. Move it to the venue, plug it straight in, and it sounds the same.


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## Fader (Mar 10, 2009)

So you're going mono into the Jamhub or do you have a stereo pedal after the Tech 21?


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Fader said:


> So you're going mono into the Jamhub or do you have a stereo pedal after the Tech 21?


I was mono last night into a mono/stereo adapter (so dual-mono, technically), but I have a Boss DD-20 after the Tech 21. I was going to buy a 2x1/4" mono to 1/4" stereo adapter yesterday, but The Source by my work seems to no longer exist. Once I have that, I'll be going stereo in.

Even in dual-mono, it sounds pretty darned nice. We're only 1 practice in on the Jamhub so far, but I have nothing bad at all to say about it. It exceeded expectations, but I don't want to get ahead of myself. After a few more practices with it, I'll post a full review.


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## Fader (Mar 10, 2009)

I'm heading down the same trail. Thanks for the heads-up.


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## Greg Ellis (Oct 1, 2007)

hollowbody said:


> The only thing I need to sort out is that my TS9 fully cranked doesn't seem to give me a louder 'solo' sound. I get more saturation and sustain, but not more volume. This isn't a huge issue, since it's just practice and I'm sure my other bandmates are turning me down in the mix anyway and I can hear myself just fine. I might eliminate using the TS9 entirely unless I can figure out a way to make it work (or another pedal), but again, it's not a huge deal.


Are you running the TS9 before the Tech 21?

Placing a clean boost that comes AFTER the Tech 21 ought to do it. 

The TS9 might even work, with the controls set appropriately. It's worth a try, anyway.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Greg Ellis said:


> Are you running the TS9 before the Tech 21?
> 
> Placing a clean boost that comes AFTER the Tech 21 ought to do it.
> 
> The TS9 might even work, with the controls set appropriately. It's worth a try, anyway.


Placing the TS9 after the Tech 21 resulted in a LOT of noise. That's where I tried it first, actually. Granted, I haven't really sat down to figure it out, since the time I spend in the practice space is mostly spent practicing with the band and I try to keep the knob fiddling to a minimum.


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