# Cables! Where's the point of diminishing returns?



## Double A (Jan 31, 2017)

Was watching a video with Joey Landreths "Top tone tips", and one was don't cheap out on cables. I've always been pretty utilitarian with them, I have a mountain of Yorkvilles, and a handful of Ernie Ball and basic Planet Wave ones that are my go to gig cables. 

Is there a noticeable jump in quality going from a $35-40 PW cable to a $80-100 Mogami? The life time warranty is certainly a nice bonus, but to be honest I don't remember having too many of the mid range brands turf out on me. The cheapo Yorkvilles are of course a different story? Curious what others experience with premium cables were and if you found it to be worth the investment? If so, brand/retailer recommendations?

How about the DIY route? I'm comfortable enough with an iron that I'm reasonably sure I could assemble something that works. Is it worth looking at if you arent doing a large volume of them? Feels like there could be economy of scales at play if you're only making a few. What about recommended cable and ends and canadian sources for them?

Regale me with your cable adventures!


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Every brand of cable has its own capacitance. The lower the better. The longer the cable the higher the capacitance. Use a buffer and it won't be a problem. Lower capacitance also means more highs. High capacitance reduces highs. If your guitar is a bit muddy a better cable might make it brighter. And vice versa.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

I've been using wireless systems for a few years now. Although I usually have a mogami cable between the pedalboard and the amp. But since the pandemic I have gotten a couple of other wireless systems, I'm thinking of replacing the mogami with a wireless one too. With the new pedalboard I just put together which is powered by a rechargeable power supply, there won't be any cables around on stage.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There's cable for recording purposes, and cable for basement warriors or gigging. Quality requirements for the former are understandably higher.

Sometimes, you want a lousier cable. Hendrix often used a "curly cable". I imagine it was more for the convenience of not having it all over the stage than for any capacitance goal, but since curly cables DO have noticeably higher capacitance, the net effect was to remove some of the harshness that would have occurred plugging a Strat into one of those Marshalls. So, when pro players X, Y, and Z all swear by different cable brands, I gather they are not only commenting on build quality and robustness for touring, but also on what that cable preserves or covers up in their tone, given what they are playing and what they are playing into.

During my band days, 40 years ago, we bought a big roll of Belden 8410 ( 8410 ) and a pile of Switchcraft plugs and made our own. They still hold up, 40 years later.

But knight_yyz's comments hit the mark: proper buffering can overcome electronic cable-obstacles to tone. Of course what they can't overcome are mechanical and durability challenges.

For those who don't have a good feel for cable capacitance issues, I always encourage the following experiment. Get the longest cable you have, or even two of them, connected via a true-bypass pedal in bypass mode (to mimic a single cable as long as both of them), and plug your guitar into the amp through that. Strum clean, with treble maxed. Now, take the absolute shortest cable you have that allows you to plug directly into the amp (e.g., a 6" patch cable), even if it means adopting a posture you'd never normally use, and play into the amp using that. The difference between them in clarity should be readily apparent, moreso if they are single-coil pickups. It's usually a pretty persuasive experiment.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I have a Fishman Fluence equipped guitar that includes a mini-toggle that activates something that simulates a longer cable. I think they call it a HF Tilt mod.

I'm not disputing that these things have impact, but it's so subtle I can barely hear it just playing by myself. In the context of a band.....


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## ampaholic (Sep 19, 2006)

Milkman said:


> I'm not disputing that these things have impact, but it's so subtle I can barely hear it just playing by myself. In the context of a band.....


My experience is that it is more noticeable playing solo. About 15 years ago after reading a review (one I trusted) about George L cables I made the purchase. The review stated that using the cables was like removing a blanket that is covering your amp. I was sceptical but the very first time I plugged in the new cables I was sold.
I still have those cables and have since purchased Mogami Gold series.
My ears are not the best but I am confident that in a blind test I could pick out the good cables every time.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Neutrik also makes that plug with the dial so you can add or subtract capacitance 

Neutrik Ultimate


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

mhammer said:


> During my band days, 40 years ago, we bought a big roll of Belden 8410 ( 8410 ) and a pile of Switchcraft plugs and made our own. They still hold up, 40 years later


Bingo.

Short cables. Few effects. Does anybody cosider all the wiring inside all that shit they have heaped up in front of them? 

I know a guy who bought $2500 worth of parts and spent a year of spare time replicating a $20,000 EQ for his mastering business. He said there was over 200 feet of wire inside the thing. And then some dope suggested functionally perfect silver cables to connect to the next device. He bought Monoprice cables instead.

What @mhammer said. Use common sense. 

And buffering ALWAYS changes the sound, although that is fine if I am processing the signal anyway. Otherwise it's guitar-(short)cord-amp as much as possible.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I've experimented with quality cables in the past. For a few years I used very expensive Evidence Audio cables. One theory of the cable is that they had to be used in a specific direction. Very controversial and debatable. I had a high rate of failure with them. Tonewise they seem to have more highs than what I was getting from the average planet waves I was using at the time. However that wasn't necessarily a good thing. At the time I was using Telecasters with Vox inspired boutique amps with celestion blues which could be ice picky with lots of highs.
I now use American Stage Planet waves cable. Not their cheapest cable. But far less expensive than the boutique brands. I am comfortable with a good quality cable but $50-$60 for a 10-12 foot cable is about where I draw the line.
What I want most from a cable is reliability.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> What I want most from a cable is reliability.


Same here. Odd that cheap cables often outlast "better" ones. 

My record is roughly 1977 to 2007. Twenty-footer with molded ends.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

KapnKrunch said:


> Same here. Odd that cheap cables often outlast "better" ones.
> 
> My record is roughly 1977 to 2007. Twenty-footer with molded ends.


I've had the rare inexpensive cable that would last but its not my experience that inexpensive cables routinely outlast a better quality cable. I did however have a Fender Whirlwind cable that I got as case candy with a Fender guitar. I had that cable for about 12 years and it would not die. I finally lost it at a gig. Might have accidentally ended up in someone else's gig bag. I've found Planet Waves pretty reliable over all and the odd one I've had failed is backed by their lifetime warranty. Planet Waves are more than satisfactory tone wise and reliability is good.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> What I want most from a cable is reliability.


Bingo.
But PART of that reliability is sometimes things we don't think about much, like the ability to turn sharp corners. Certainly, where UNreliability of cables sneaks in is the mechanical strain they are put under at the cable/plug junction, by our moving around. As well, we often want a patch cable to turn a tight corner on a pedalboard where we are trying to interconnect pedals of different sizes, shapes, and jack locations into the smallest possible space. In those types of circumstances, we may want a more slender jacket diameter, and possibly even internal wire gauge, to suit that purpose, while still desiring a big fat outer diameter and thick rubber jacket to hold up, and also lie down easily. If a cable is being used to patch the back of a rack setup, we want lowest possible capacitance, and since nothing's getting moved around much, physical robustness is much less of a consideration.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

i want the same thing out of an instrument cable that i want out of an air hose on a framing job. it needs to lay flat. it needs to connect securely at each end. it needs to not kink. it needs to be able to get stepped on or rolled over without crapping out. it needs to be not too fat or heavy. stuff needs to flow through it at a rate that doesn't impede the performance of the tool. a mid-priced one is likely better bang for buck than either a cheap-o or a bee's knees super performance rarity. 

the other thing to consider on a live stage if we're using DI or mics to PA not just the live sound of an amp in a room is that you can nerd out all you want on cables but the signal then plugs into the house snake and goes 100' or maybe more to the sound board and then that far again or more back up to the mains amp. The cable from instrument to amp is the smallest bit of copper the signal will be passing through on its way from your picking hand to the audience's eardrum.


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## Dazza (Jan 16, 2011)

Regardless of what cables I'm using in 40-ish years playing guitar in bands for fun and as a living, I have to repeatedly tell others to not to stand or walk on them. While typically observant of common obstacles such as plugs, pedals, drinks, bags etc and stepping over them, most don't pay attention to cables. While I'm by no means baby-ing them they really don't need 200lb+ heel weight focused on any one spot.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Better to have two decent cables than one expensive one.


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## crann (May 10, 2014)

If you can hear the difference, it's worth the difference.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

KapnKrunch said:


> Better to have two decent cables than one expensive one.


Regardless of what they cost I'd have to correct number of cables I need plus a couple spares. When it comes to cables even expensive ones don't compare to the money I spend on guitars, amps and pedals. When considering cables it really doesn't come down to price so much as whether top priced boutique cables are worth it to me.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

I was in a music store and thought: "These are kinda pricey, but everyone says use better cables so I am gonna buy them." Got them home and had to repair one before using it. The other one didnt last as long as the curly cord I picked up in Radio Shack for five bucks. 

I have a definite prejudice against costly cables, but I will be the first to admit it is circumstantial. The upside is that I have no problem connecting thousands of dollars of gear with cheap cables if I have to. 

My "good" cables are based on appearance more than anything else.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

crann said:


> If you can hear the difference, it's worth the difference.


I would phrase it, "If you're convinced you can hear a difference, it's worth the difference."

As @mhammer eluded to, if you have the competency to choose decent quality parts and solder the cables yourself, you'll have good quality cables that will last a lifetime. Cables aren't magic.

There are a few factors to consider when it comes to quality:
Quality of Workmanship = Seriously, this is the biggest one. Cheap cable with cheap ends that are well soldered will likely last longer than a poorly soldered cable, regardless of quality. So, good assembly/soldering is paramount!​​End Types = Poorly machined plugs with plastic insulators and substandard metals will not last as long and are more prone to oxidation and damage.​​Main Conductor = Larger is generally better. Most budget guitar cable is 22AWG-26AWG. Better quality stuff is 18-20AWG (lower numbers means bigger). A larger conductor will have less tone loss over longer distances and is less likely to fail/break. You can definitely hear the difference between a 10 foot cable with a 24AWG conductor and a 10 foot cable with a 20AWG conductor. You can measure it too.​​Type and Amount of Shielding = Spiral shielding can provide greater shielding coverage and it remains much more flexible, but is not quite as physically durable. Braided shielding is much more durable, but less flexible and can't provide as much coverage. Shielding coverage is usually calculated by %. Really cheap/poor quality cables are 80% or less. 95%+ for the best stuff. Of course, you can find everything in between.​​Insulating and Cover Materials = How well do they withstand heat and stretching? Is there a conductive layer for added shielding coverage? What is the thickness and flexibility of the outer jacket?​​Capacitance/Resistance = Lower generally means better. BUT, you can't always trust the specs provided by cable companies for these. Not necessarily because of any intentional deceit, but more because these things can and will vary (sometimes a lot, relatively speaking) between production runs.​
You can find plenty of cables that check all of the quality boxes without being $80-$100. I'm in the camp that if you're paying that much, you've been "had" by the marketing machine of the companies selling those cables.

Regarding lifetime warranties, there are two opposing reasons they exist.

The company making the cable believes in the product enough that it won't fail, so they don't really plan on ever having to deal with it except in the rare circumstances where failure will occur. -OR-
The company knows their product is cheap and will fail, but they are at a price point where they know most people will just throw the cable out if it stops working. Should they actually need to replace/service a bunch of cables, they also have a margin on them that allows for those losses.
Like I said, if you have the skill and the will, you can probably make a better cable than what you can buy off the shelf in a store. At least, that's my experience. I went through tons of cheap cables, and even some middle of the road priced ones back in the day. Had problems at one point or another with most of them. After I learned how to solder and make my own, I never had a failure. I still have the first cable I ever soldered.

But still, to further echo what others have said, if length/loss is the issue. Buffers overcome that decently well.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

KapnKrunch said:


> I was in a music store and thought: "These are kinda pricey, but everyone says use better cables so I am gonna buy them." *Got them home and had to repair one before using it*. The other one didnt last as long as the curly cord I picked up in Radio Shack for five bucks.
> 
> I have a definite prejudice against costly cables, but I will be the first to admit it is circumstantial. The upside is that I have no problem connecting thousands of dollars of gear with cheap cables if I have to.
> 
> My "good" cables are based on appearance more than anything else.


Why on earth would you buy a new cable to get home and find it doesn't work and then repair it. I'd have returned it the next time I was going back to the music store. 
I tend to try and buy reasonably priced cables with life time warranties, regardless of whether you have the original receipt or not. Perhaps it costs a bit more to buy a cable that offers that type of warranty and maybe thats the extra you're paying for. However I believe its in the best interest of the company to have quality standards to minimize cable failures as it costs them to honor that type of warranty. I've had great luck with Planet Waves as one such company. Failures have been very rare with the exception of their solderless cables which I hated. 
For pedalboard cables I've had great luck with EBS premium. I mainly use those because they're very flat heads which enables a nice tight board. Not sure what they're warranty is. I've never had to find out so far.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

jbealsmusic said:


> Like I said, if you have the skill and the will, you can probably make a better cable than what you can buy off the shelf in a store.



For me, I have no interest in making cables. I mean I could make my own cables, learn to do all the pro setups and tweaks on my guitars, learn to fix failing pedals and learn how to fix most things on my amps. But I'd rather be spending all that time just playing.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

I live in a "remote" area. Returns are not an option sometimes.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I'll just add to the discussion that if one plans to DIY at least some of their cabling, heat shrink is as critical a purchase as the cable and jacks. Often the weakest link in any music cable is lack of strain relief. Decent heat shrink tubing that can fit snugly around the plug and wire will provide insurance for your efforts. Just remember to slide the piece of heat shrink onto the wire *before* you slip the plug enclosure on, since you'll want it to cover the plug. The diameter of the shrink to buy will depend on the plugs you end up using.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

KapnKrunch said:


> I live in a "remote" area. Returns are not an option sometimes.



Thats too bad. A deal breaker for me to reside in a location anywhere I can't visit a music store at least once a week easily. I was on holidays last week and went to visit friends in Elk Lake. They had retired early and moved up there right on the lake. Lovely area but 45 minutes to the nearest grocery store in New Liskard or Englehart. Can't imagine where the nearest decent music store. But he's not a musician so no worries for him.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

I have some higher end d’darrio instrument cables.
They sound good to me.

I have wired all of my own XLR’s for Mic’s.
Bought premium cable and Neutrik make and female jacks and went to town. They work fine.

I think the cable quality and the Jack quality can make a difference. But I am not knowledgeable enough to tell you why other than “it sounds better to my ears”.

Capacitance, flux quantum continuator… space, sound. Science


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

jbealsmusic said:


> I would phrase it, "If you're convinced you can hear a difference, it's worth the difference


LOL. Thanks, I didn't wanna say it.

Friend's wife: "He says he can hear a difference, can you?" 

I have known him since we were teenagers. In a rare moment of tact, I said: "He has much better hearing than most people."


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I have 2 main cables for my guitars. One is a Mogami Gold and the other is van Damme. The Van Damme is a wee bit brighter. These are both hand made cables with Neutrik plugs and I've also covered the cable itself with tech flex. It's a nylon sleeve with many designs and colours to not only make the cable look cool but help protect against abrasion and cuts. You can even buy it shielded if you want extra shielding on your cable
These are both Mogami gold with tech flex sleeve. The yellow and black is a short 3 footer from my pedal board to the amp, also Van Damme wrapped in a vintage style tech flex sleeve


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## Wilbur Bufferson (May 17, 2018)

As mentioned earlier, Planet Waves American Stage are great cables. Durable and they sound great.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

I buy Digiflex Tourflex cables, the green ones, I‘ve owned lots of them for many years and haven’t had one go bad.

I think they used to be made with Canare GS-6 cable, but now they are made with something else. If you want GS-6 you have to buy the Studioflex version, which is much more expensive. The Tourflex cables used to use Neutrik NP2C plugs and now they use the thinner Neutrik NP2X. Studioflex uses the gold NP2X-B.

I often buy cables with one single NP2RX 90-degree plug, I like those because you can sit down on a couch without risking your guitar’s jack.

If I was going to build my own cables I would build them like the old ones with GS-6 and NP2C or NP2RC. I think you may be able to custom order that through the website, but you may need to be a dealer to place a custom order.

Some of the Digiflex cables I buy have come with velcro straps, as discussed in the thread below. You can get a box with 6 colours of straps which someone recommended as a way to colour-code by cable type. A packages of 50 or 100 black straps or a package of 50 black and 50 red straps is much cheaper than 60 coloured straps, and there are much cheaper brands of hook & loop straps. The 8-inch Velcro straps are very long or too long for most cables.









Best place to buy cables?


Hi guys. I've had a couple of equipment failures at my last 2 gigs and i'm going to be doing some revamping of my rig and gear which is going to include some new cabling. Looking for recommendation on where to get the best bang for my buck.




www.guitarscanada.com













VELCRO Brand ONE-WRAP Ties | Cable Management, Wires & Cords | Self Gripping Cable Ties, Reusable | 60 Ct - 8" x 1/2" | Multi-Color : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement


VELCRO Brand ONE-WRAP Ties | Cable Management, Wires & Cords | Self Gripping Cable Ties, Reusable | 60 Ct - 8" x 1/2" | Multi-Color : Amazon.ca: Tools & Home Improvement



www.amazon.ca


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

I've been making my own cables for so long now that I have a ridiculous surplus of plugs and cable that I can keep re-using.

Switchcraft pancakes, Neutrick straight plugs, Mogami, Canare, Belden wire, $0.50 a foot Rapco shit from L&M repair dept. that sounds just fine even if the outer ground wire is pretty thin.

And I am not by any means an electronics engineer. Making your own cables is easy, cheap, and more importantly fully customizable and you know how good your own cable is, cuz you made it.


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## LowWatt (Jun 27, 2007)

It's not the ask here, but important info for why the new cable can often sound a little better than your old one - clean your connections every once in a while.

It's not a drastic difference but it's an important one when things are sounding a little less lively if the problem isn't dead strings or tubes.


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

Cable capacitance does more than just roll off high end, it’ll load down a passive pickup… effectively shift the frequency knee lower the more capacitance you add. It can make a bright pickup have more midrange, and a midrangey pickup sound like mud. It’s why turning up/down the treble on the amp doesn’t really compensate for cable capacitance… the sound is changed at the source.


I’ve played a lot with cable over the years. Gone as long as 40 feet, as short as 10, mostly stick to 20 footers. I have a 30-something foot coily cable that makes my basses sound super punchy, yet makes my humbucker guitars sound like mud. Conversely, the 20 footers give my bass too much high end and not enough mids.

My best cables are BRTB Canada that I bought about 20 years ago. Came with a cardboard jacket that was stapled together to hold the cable in a coil. Predated Monster Cable convincing people you needed a garden hose sized jacket over a 24g cable. Now basic cable is massively over-marketed, but cable that lasts is worth it.


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

Saw this the other day, thought it would be useful for this thread. He’s demo’ing the PRS Sweet Switch, which is meant to replicate about 35 feet of extra cable hanging off the pickup. You can hear how it rolls off the top and shifts the mids.


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