# The Axe FX and the 'virtual rig'



## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

For those of you who are not aware of the Fractal Audio Axe Fx unit, I am here to tell you, as an owner of many great amps over the years including Bruno, Roccaforte, Two Rock, Fuchs, CAA, and more, after playing and gigging with this thing for about 3 years I am still amazed by the quality and versatility of tone I get out of it. 

Perhaps the most remakable thing for me is how I can find any tone imaginable by creating a virtual rig in a matter of minutes. Testing different amp models (probably 40 or more) effects, speaker cabinets, and so on. It would take years and 10's of thousands of dollars to get all this 'real' equipment in one place to accomplish the kind of thing I do on a whim. 

I just put together a virtual rig to use on a Gary Moore song I am learning (Parisienne Walkways) using elements I never had or would have considered in the real world. I was a basic drive pedal-amp-reverb/delay and done kind of player. The rig looks like this:

compressor - drive pedal - amp ( I went with the Dumble style amp model) - speaker (4x12 with greens) - reverb - chorus - delay - enhancer - EQ. 

one of the best things about the digital rig is I get cranked amp tone at any vol in a 2 space rack unit. You really need good monitor and PA speakers to do it justice of course. Hauling around a 100 watt amp and cab rig and pummelling anyone within 50 ft of it (including me) is a thing I don't miss. 

thought I would share, if anyone is looking for a great rig and likes this kind of versatility, any tone you can imagine, it is all there for about $1500. 

I sound like a salesman, too bad I don't get a commission!


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Don't belive you 
How about some clips?

Had a chance to play this last year and was blown away with the tones, the guy who had it was a blues/jazz guy so we just used some metal pre-sets.
I was able to tweak them a bit before our jam started and wow was I impressed.
He had a Mesa Dual Rec and we did an A/B with it and it was damn close, bit more tweaking and it would of been spot on.

3 years, any problems along the way?
What amp are you using?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I've spent some time with my friend's standard, and it's good times - we came up with a pretty crazy "movie soundtrack" tone using the bassman model and 2 delays - one set for 1 octave up on the 2nd repeat, and the other set for 2 octaves up on the 2nd repeat. We also cloned his 2ch triple rectifier settings with the Recto Orange model, used an OD pedal to boost it (Maxon OD808 in real life, ibanez? sim on the axe w/ slightly different settings) and it was pretty damn close (G12T-75 212 for the real thing, V30 412 slant for the Axe-fx).

I will probably get one down the road, but I still like the sound of my Mesa - that and I could only buy the preamp and a foot controller, I'd have no power amp.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Bevo said:


> Don't belive you
> How about some clips?
> 
> Had a chance to play this last year and was blown away with the tones, the guy who had it was a blues/jazz guy so we just used some metal pre-sets.
> ...


Sorry Bevo, no clips from me, I don't have a recording set-up of any kind. You can find lots of the net and over at the Fractal Forums. 

I have been playing and gigging with it constantly the whole time with no issues. 

I have never played a Mesa Dual in real life but I sure like the Orange model on the Axe-Fx, I play most of my blues stuff with it! If I went back to tubes that would be my first amp. 
I don't use a power amp except for the rare time I run it into guitar cabs, which sound good. Most of the time it goes straight into monitor/mains. 
And the selection and sound quality of the drive pedals in this unit is astounding to me.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2010)

All of the Duran Duran clips I've been posting are done with the AxeFx. Running direct to FoH.

I was playing around with the latest beta of the editor software tonight and man can you ever move quickly with it. Updating and tweaking is super fast. 

I was rocking the new RV-50 model, playing along to some old Barstool Prophets. Bass player from the DD tribute is also Graham Greer's bass player which got me thinking that Crank was an awesome album. Dusted it off and, yup: it still rocks. The AxeFx does the whole respond-to-volume changed better than any amp Ive ever used. Played through all of Crank with just the one model and my volume control to dial gain up and down. Tasty!


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

That must make life so much easier to go direct to the board, no gear to carry or set up.

I imagine your presets stay the same but each venue is different because of layout and equipment. Do you have to do much tweaking to get the same sound back?
Blues, how does it sound through your powered speaker, does it still have the punch or tone of a guitar speaker?


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2010)

Bevo said:


> That must make life so much easier to go direct to the board, no gear to carry or set up.


I've got a 3u rack and a laptop bag with my foot controller and stuff in it. Hopefully next week there'll be a new Mono Cases double guitar bag for my birthday. Then I'm really portable. It's a nice change from lugging 2x12s and heads around.



> I imagine your presets stay the same but each venue is different because of layout and equipment. Do you have to do much tweaking to get the same sound back?


Thus far: no tweaking required. There are global EQs and reverb level overrides you can use to adjust all your patched from one spot. Tweak for a room quickly. I never use them. I don't use much reverb and FoH can tweak for me. That's usually done by someone who knows the room. It's a whole easier job for them when they don't have to deal with micing a cab with all that stage volume and bleed happening. You eliminate a ton of problems going direct.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

iaresee said:


> I've got a 3u rack and a laptop bag with my foot controller and stuff in it. Hopefully next week there'll be a new Mono Cases double guitar bag for my birthday. Then I'm really portable. It's a nice change from lugging 2x12s and heads around.
> 
> 
> Thus far: no tweaking required. There are global EQs and reverb level overrides you can use to adjust all your patched from one spot. Tweak for a room quickly. I never use them. I don't use much reverb and FoH can tweak for me. That's usually done by someone who knows the room. It's a whole easier job for them when they don't have to deal with micing a cab with all that stage volume and bleed happening. You eliminate a ton of problems going direct.


Live set-up is much easier and the sound is consistently better and easier to manage for the reasons Ian stated. It really is nice to show up with a small rack unit and a foot controller and plug in direct - sound men love it!


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Bevo said:


> That must make life so much easier to go direct to the board, no gear to carry or set up.
> 
> I imagine your presets stay the same but each venue is different because of layout and equipment. Do you have to do much tweaking to get the same sound back?
> Blues, how does it sound through your powered speaker, does it still have the punch or tone of a guitar speaker?


You need to get a really good monitor to get the same kind of thump and feel you get from a good guitar cab set-up. I have a QSC K12 and it really delivers. Some players still like to use their AXE FX on stage like a normal rig with an amp and guitar cabs to get the same 'feel' as having an amp on stage - One output to FOH, one to the stage rig. 

Two things about this rig that are off-putting to some players: It does not sound like a regular amp/cab set up - it sounds like a cranked and mic'd rig in another room with the feed from that 'microphone' running thru whatever system you have. You can set it up to sound like a regular guitar rig if you want of course. 

the other issue is the midi learning curve. Still, Learning how to put together a real rig with the different pedals, cables, amps, tubes, cabs and speakers, attenuation etc, is a hugh undertaking as most of us know and if you have a good grasp of that then the principles are the same with the virtual rig, just a different interface. 

I was able to put together a handful of great rigs/tones in an afternoon with the Axe, but there is alot of stuff to learn in there if you are a tweaker. 

I am a midiot and sometimes need to rely on guys like Ian here to help me.


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## the-patient (May 19, 2009)

I have to play the other side of the Axe-FX here.

I played it for over a year, and I really really do say it is extremely realistic, and I love the tone.

I'll state the problems I had with it. 

I was a bit overwhelmed with all of the possibilities, and found myself tweaking more than I was playing, and I found this a bit frustrating. 

Another issue was that I was never good at getting tones really quickly. So if my tone wasn't sitting well in a mix, it would always be "Oh well, let's deal with this for this rehearsal, I'll tweak after and get it going."

Also, as a vocalist/guitar player tweaking on the fly was impossible. If I wanted a bit more mid it would be run back, press layout, press edit on the amp, press right 4 times, adjust mid. It was just impossible to do feasibly.

That said, it was ideal for studio stuff for me. As good or better than any mic'd amp, and really consistent and easy. It just didn't translate to my live setting, personally.

For the record I sold the Axe-FX and now I'm playing an early 70's Traynor BassMaster and I couldn't be happier.

To each his own though, like I said... It just didn't work for me personally.

Oh, and one more thing - it truly doesn't feel exactly like a tube amp, it's close but not 100% . To me it was passable, and didn't make playing frustrating, but often there was too much picking dynamic, and the sag didn't feel right. Thats just to my hands though.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

That's true of all the very best digital gear. The *good* news is that you have more parameters to adjust. The *bad* news is that you have more parameters to adjust.

Maybe in ten years' time we'll be able to hum, screech, squeak, or grunt into a mic, and all the parameters will adjust automatically via tonal recognition. Or maybe, like Shazam does with songs now, you can hold the mic up to a speaker, play it a sample, and it will look up the pertinent tweaks in some immense database and make them. But for now....you have all those parameters to adjust.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

I've had the Axe Fx for three years now and it is fantastic! I've used it for rehearsals a couple time Pre V7 and it didn't work for me, but with V9, I have to give it a whirl again. It blew me away practicing to some Backtracks last night.
I do not like the FOH route though, I use an amp and cab.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2010)

the-patient said:


> I was a bit overwhelmed with all of the possibilities, and found myself tweaking more than I was playing, and I found this a bit frustrating.


Incredibly easy to get lost in all the options. Even just setting up blocks, with a 4 x 10 matrix available to you and complex routing possibilities you can spend hours trying things in different order and in parallel or series. This is either going to be the stuff that floats your boat or the stuff that drags you down.



> Another issue was that I was never good at getting tones really quickly. So if my tone wasn't sitting well in a mix, it would always be "Oh well, let's deal with this for this rehearsal, I'll tweak after and get it going."


Pre 9.x it was a LOT of work to really pull amazing tones from it. Third party IRs. EQ all over the place. Massively tweaked amp blocks. From 9.x on I rarely, if ever, venture in to the deep amp block parameters. I set re-init the block to default, find a model I like, fiddle with bass, mid and treble and maybe sag/MV/presence and then I rock. 9.x really got the defaults to a place where they are just wonderful.

I still use a PEQ block after every cab block with blocking high and low curves. But this is a necessity with a band that's keyboard heavy. Lots of sonic toe stomping happening and it's just easier for me to dial my spot in the mix in via the AxeFx than to try and remember how we had our board setup for my channel. Plus I get to shoot the keyboard player dirty looks when he stomps on everyone with a big pad sound that's too loud. 



> Also, as a vocalist/guitar player tweaking on the fly was impossible. If I wanted a bit more mid it would be run back, press layout, press edit on the amp, press right 4 times, adjust mid. It was just impossible to do feasibly.


I hear ya! Tweaking on the fly is pretty darn near impossible if you haven't got the parameters mapped to real time controllers. And not all parameters are map-able (like bass, mid and treble in the amp block are not). Which definitely sucks. Early in to it I was looking at an M-Audio control surface that would send SysEx to the unit for those parameters so I could tweak on the fly. In the end I never really got to dissecting the SysEx for it sufficiently to make it work. Plus, I got some patches going that worked and stopped needing to tweak. You definitely need patient band mates are rehearsal the first few times you bring it out. On the flip side, once it's dialed in the consistency is 100% every time.



> To each his own though, like I said... It just didn't work for me personally.


Absolute truth up there. For some it'll work, for some it wont.



> Oh, and one more thing - it truly doesn't feel exactly like a tube amp, it's close but not 100% . To me it was passable, and didn't make playing frustrating, but often there was too much picking dynamic, and the sag didn't feel right. Thats just to my hands though.


 On this I disagree. It feels every bit like every tube amp I've ever played and sag + MV is insanely good. It is incredibly sensitive to pickup changes, pickups, picking dynamics: yes. But that's because it's got an input with secret sauce on every amp model you play. Whereas not all the real-world equivalents are built like that.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2010)

ne1roc said:


> I've had the Axe Fx for three years now and it is fantastic! I've used it for rehearsals a couple time Pre V7 and it didn't work for me, but with V9, I have to give it a whirl again. It blew me away practicing to some Backtracks last night.
> I do not like the FOH route though, I use an amp and cab.


 At first I was missing the feeling of my pant cuffs blowing in the breeze from my amp. Took a good few months for me to get used to the direct route. It's definitely different playing this way. Like standing out front and playing from there. I dial up a pretty me-heavy mix in my monitor.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

I understand your frustration Patient, but I don't have issues with it because I have found a sound that works live and I almost never have to tweak after sound check. but then, I never did on my 'real' amps before either. 

I have a wireless and spend more time standing in front of the FOH to hear myself when I solo, otherwise, I might prefer an amp/cab style set-up for stage monitoring...

hammer is right, for better or worse, digital is in tweaksville.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Have you guys tried the Digitech GSP1101 yet?

I was looking for some effects and to get a combo pedal of quality is around the same price as the 1101 $500.
Not looking for the amp modeling but it does look like it will be fun to play with.

Having tried the X3Live I missed the plug and play of a tube amp but now miss the effects of the modeler. The idea of headphone recording options is also a benifit to having both rigs.
Just don't want to get into the tweak tweak tweak and not play thing again.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2010)

No. But guys on the Fractal forum who have both speak well of them. For $500 they fare well. Their controller is sweet. Wish it was a general MIDI controller.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

After seeing Mark Days vids (Sam Hill band), I'm fascinated by these things a nd the quality of soung they produce.
But I cant get past the cost, as well as my own lack of patience with tweaking multi fx units...after trying a couple units I've gone back to simple old dials for on the spot tweaks.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Did a bit of homework on the GSP1101 and it looks like the original intent was to work along with your amp instead of replacing your amp.
My amp tone is pretty damn good and I don't want to change it so this is a plus.

One other key item I need is the ability to play with headphones and have a perfect sound matched with my computer.
Playing direct to a PA is also a great option as one jam we have a great system.

The cost is $599 but just wonder if something like the Boss ME25 is a better option at $200. BOSS U.S. - ME-25: Guitar Multiple Effects

Sorry to derail your thread.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

The digitech should make the Boss sound like a child's toy, I think.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Went to L&M at the crack of 10 today and rented a GSP1101 and after a few hours of playing with it I have decided that its not for me.
The effects were ok but matching up the effect one at a time and A/B them with the real thing was not the same.

If you have the time and want to get into the programing then it will be ok as most have found. I just want to turn things on and off and have the real deal.

Not for me, LOVE the rentals from L&M $10 do get my own opinion!


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## the-patient (May 19, 2009)

completely forgot I posted in this thread!

I just wanted to clarify again that my switching away from this route had anything to do with the sound, or feel of this thing.

Iaresee, I know you disagree about the feel thing with me, but it's all subjective I suppose - it could be a symptom of my impatience with learning the thing. To me though, it didn't feel like the real amps I a/b'ed it to. I'm not in any way saying that it feels any worse! Just different.

it is a REALLY amazing unit, and Cliff is an amazing guy. So many people on that forum are great, and so are you iaresee, thanks for the advice you gave me.

Maybe somewhere down the road, when I have some guitar techs to tweak on the fly(haha) I'll go back to the axe-fx. the thing is amazing, so versatile, and powerful - it just didn't jive with my live needs at this point. Going from giant PA's from the 60's, tiny 400 watt yorkvilles, to huge line arrays just really required a lot of tweaking. I'm also a bit of a knob twister for effect, and like to improvise a bit, so planning out all the expression pedals wasn't really feasible.

Lastly, I just want to say that I give this thing a glowing recommendation to anyone interested in this thing. Try it out, maybe it'll work for you - it definitely will on a sonic level.

dylan


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I think that when I get into a band that's serious about recording, I'll either borrow or buy a used axe fx standard to do it with. I hope to do casual recordings at home when life has "settled down a bit" so they say, and having one piece of gear that I use would be fantastic. That said, I still plan on owning 5 or 6 heads and 3 or 4 cabs hehe.

The metal band I'm in, I'm currently borrowing my whole rig haha - bassist's LP Custom into guitarists' Maxon OD808 into guitarist's 2ch triple rec into bassist's JCM800 212. Co-guitarist is orville LP standard into axe fx into ? power amp into Randall MTS 412. We both sound pretty good!


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Not going to happen Budda, or if it does it won't be for long.
You can't go just AXE alone, it would be perfect for recoding and home but playing out or GAS will bring you right back to the 5 heads you want!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Tell that to Jake Bowen of periperhy, haha. He took Bulb's Axe-fx on the road, said bulb went ENGL and I believe Alex did too. When I saw them, everybody sounded good, and audible. I know the mesa 2:90:2 helped, of course. I could do it, especially if I dialed up the bonecrushing tones I know I could get.

It would be wierd at first, but like Ian said once you're used to it, who cares.

I love the look of my friend's triple, but the axe kills it in the versatility department. I think part of the reason I haven't tried to get in on the action is because I am a tweaker (generally adjust settings on ch4 once a week haha), and I would be overwhelmed with how in depth I could get.

I really hope they come out with a 5150 Crunch amp sim, apparently they only have the lead channel


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Budda said:


> Tell that to Jake Bowen of periperhy, haha. He took Bulb's Axe-fx on the road, said bulb went ENGL and I believe Alex did too. When I saw them, everybody sounded good, and audible. I know the mesa 2:90:2 helped, of course. I could do it, especially if I dialed up the bonecrushing tones I know I could get.
> 
> It would be wierd at first, but like Ian said once you're used to it, who cares.
> 
> ...


I used to have 4 or 5 heads, awesome ones too, they are all gone now. The Axe can do it all and way more... and the tweaking is part of the fun. 

I spent a few hours the first day or two with the Axe getting the tones I wanted in a handful of patches, since then, I get an idea to create a certain sound I imagine or hear, or tweak one of my existing patches, and I sit down with it for a few minutes. It is no more tweaking than I did with my rig before, I just have way more options now. Instead of setting caps and changing tubes or trying new pedals and routings, I just turn a few dials and do it all digitally.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I already spend too little time not trying to improve my playing by any real amount, although that will probably change more as I spend more time in my current metal band.

I love to tweak, but I'd rather be working on a riff then re-setting my recto lol.

besides that, I just think having a bunch of amps kicking around looks badass. That said, I wouldn't be suprised if in 3 years my rig is an axe-fx standard and a Peters Hydra.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2010)

the-patient said:


> Iaresee, I know you disagree about the feel thing with me, but it's all subjective I suppose - it could be a symptom of my impatience with learning the thing. To me though, it didn't feel like the real amps I a/b'ed it to. I'm not in any way saying that it feels any worse! Just different.


Yea, I agree: completely subjective. Nothing wrong with liking different things. 



> Maybe somewhere down the road, when I have some guitar techs to tweak on the fly(haha) I'll go back to the axe-fx. the thing is amazing, so versatile, and powerful - it just didn't jive with my live needs at this point. Going from giant PA's from the 60's, tiny 400 watt yorkvilles, to huge line arrays just really required a lot of tweaking. I'm also a bit of a knob twister for effect, and like to improvise a bit, so planning out all the expression pedals wasn't really feasible.


One of my big gripes with it is not having enough knobs up front to change things on the fly. I looked into using an M-Audio "knob and slider" MIDI controller, but none of the SysEx for the unit is revealed and discovering it is a PIA.


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2010)

Budda said:


> I know the mesa 2:90:2 helped, of course. I could do it, especially if I dialed up the bonecrushing tones I know I could get.


The power amp shouldn't matter. Whatever you use, you're using it in the linear range of it's operating parameters -- where it's taking in and making it louder and out and doing it evenly across the entire frequency spectrum. The final cabinet and speaker choice will make a big difference in how you feel about things though.

For example: the Yorkville E10P I have, while loud, will never deliver that lower-testicles type thump and pant-cuff-flapping breeze you'd get out of a 4x12. Ever.

You could run it into a 4x12 but you lose a TON of flexibility with this approach because a 4x12 isn't meant to reproduce the input signal it gets linearly.

But thankfully there are linear cabinets that are being released that get you into that pant-cuff/testicle-shaking territory without having to sacrafice the AxeFx's cabinet modeling capabilities. The Atomic FR powered (tube powered at that) wedges are getting stellar reviews from guys like Mark Day, who previously was really into the ART SLA2 (power amp) + Randall cab approach to amplifying the AxeFx because he just loved the way guitar cabs sounded in a room. Here he is gushing over the pair of powered Atomic wedges he just got in:

[youtube]G9eJQnkCvN8[/youtube]

From his SLA2+Randall demos, I can't tell the difference. And I trust Mark's comment that, in the room, these things feel like guitar cabs when they're in use.

I want a pair now, that's for sure.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I think the ART power amp and randall MTS cab is how my buddy runs his axe fx haha.

I've heard of the atomic wedges or cabs, I believe a forumite ordered some cabs and will give us a review on another board.


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