# Terrible, godawful L&M luthier work



## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Told my friend to take it to one of the members here. No, he was told L&M on Hunt Club had an amazing guitar tech. Well, here’s what the result was from having ferrules installed.

They owe him a new guitar.


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## Twisted Metal (Oct 12, 2011)

woah...that is BRUTAL!


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Wow.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

What's the full story here? I know their "techs" aren't high caliber as I've had my share of issues with them, but that seems bad even for them.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Yeah…I’m waiting for the plot to thicken.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

I'm guessing they got busy and subbed this out to a daycare.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Decline work you cant do.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

A drunk monkey could have done a better job.


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

Mmm, for future, Glebe guitar?


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## DavidP (Mar 7, 2006)

Ouch, that hurts!!!


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## b-nads (Apr 9, 2010)

Jezuz!


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## John123 (Jul 22, 2020)

My philosophy is you can buy in a store, but setup and all repairs should be done by a trained luthier.


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## Acoustic Tom (Apr 6, 2020)

I'd be pissed! Pure sh*t workmanship


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Well it looks bad at that zoomed in resolution, but what was asked of them, and what did it look like before?


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## Archeonn (Sep 8, 2021)

Did he fill the holes with strawberry jam?


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Looks like he drilled the holes freehand.


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## crann (May 10, 2014)

I could have done at least as bad a job for probably half the cost.

In for full story. Do you have a before pic? What guitar was/is it?


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Luthier? That, I doubt.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

zdogma said:


> Mmm, for future, Glebe guitar?


Is that someone here on GC as well? Or am I thinking of a different person.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

player99 said:


> Well it looks bad at that zoomed in resolution, but what was asked of them, and what did it look like before?


It was a smooth back. Guitar didn’t have ferrules.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Okay Player said:


> What's the full story here? I know their "techs" aren't high caliber as I've had my share of issues with them, but that seems bad even for them.


The store manager apologized, didn’t charge for the work and is going to talk to the tech on Monday.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

zdogma said:


> Mmm, for future, Glebe guitar?


That’s what my recommendation was but Jerome was too busy.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

crann said:


> I could have done at least as bad a job for probably half the cost.
> 
> In for full story. Do you have a before pic? What guitar was/is it?


i don’t have a before pic, I asked my buddy for one. It’s an older Carvin DC160 lefty.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

tomee2 said:


> Is that someone here on GC as well? Or am I thinking of a different person.


He’s here.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

1SweetRide said:


> It was a smooth back. Guitar didn’t have ferrules.


Ouch!


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

1SweetRide said:


> The store manager apologized, didn’t charge for the work and is going to talk to the tech on Monday.


That seems very inadequate.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

^ Exactly. That's like apologizing for a stab wound.

Not a whole lot makes my blood boil but that pathetic job came close. They owe the customer his money back and reparations on top of it!


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

If it's a player guitar not as bad as a mint collector. But then who would mod it if it was valuable? This sayed, any guitar can be # one to someone.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Damn! I generally have low expectations for work done at L&M, but that really leaps across the line.


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## jaydubz (Jan 17, 2021)

Damn that's gut wrenching. I don't think anything less than a new guitar is acceptable in this case. I hope they give you a good resolution.


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

Too many people rely on banners stores with "prestigious" names without realizing that it is the competence of the people that counts.
I also doubt that they are graduate luthiers, that they are handymen

The majority of the best luthiers, for example, have their own place of business. 
They are not employees.

I don't mean that there are no competent people working for stores.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

That is terrible. I can't even imagine what that person did. And that's all they are giving back, no charge for their screw up? I want to see how this all pans out.


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## MarkM (May 23, 2019)

1SweetRide said:


> i don’t have a before pic, I asked my buddy for one. It’s an older Carvin DC160 lefty.


Good then they can just go to the showroom and replace that guitar for him!


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

I’ll let you know what happens. My friend is a bandmate so I’ll get regular updates. We’re all pretty furious at how this guitar got ruined.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I think I see the problem. They misunderstood and sent the guitar to Lex *Luther*. He's pretty capable when it comes to world domination, but when it comes to guitar work, much less so.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Adding through body string holes and ferrules to a poly finished guitar is something you've got to be pretty careful doing- you're going to need the proper (and sharp!!) bits and take proper precautions. Precise measurements and a bench mill/drilling machine to do the job right. That's pretty ugly and to me looks like work they should have turned away.

The red is puzzling... the blood of the guy who worked on it or did they use red loctite for some reason(?)


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

gtrguy said:


> Adding through body string holes and ferrules to a poly finished guitar is something you've got to be pretty careful doing- you're going to need the proper (and sharp!!) bits and take proper precautions. Precise measurements and a bench mill/drilling machine to do the job right. That's pretty ugly and to me looks like work they should have turned away.
> 
> The red is puzzling... the blood of the guy who worked on it or did they use red loctite for some reason(?)


I haven’t seen the guitar in person yet so I don’t really know. Wouldn’t be blood as it’s stayed glossy.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Tech was eating a jelly donut while working on it?


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

looks like red loctite.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Ouch !!!

Even 60`s cheap Korean guitars had better work done !!!


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

I would think you need a good solid machined steel drill guide to do this right, and that's using a drill press not freehand. 
To fix this... nor sure? Route it all out then replace with a one piece metal bar?


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Wow, that's bad. I can't believe that was done by the guy they have listed on their website -- his reputation is good, to my knowledge. Maybe an apprentice?

A question -- did the manager hand the guitar back with the apology, or did the owner of this poor, poor guitar complain?


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

tomee2 said:


> Route it all out then replace with a one piece metal bar?


Providing that the next guy knows how to use a router. lol


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## Grainslayer (Sep 26, 2016)

Rollin Hand said:


> Wow, that's bad. I can't believe that was done by the guy they have listed on their website -- his reputation is good, to my knowledge. Maybe an apprentice?


Thats what i was wondering..


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

That tech may be good with a solder iron, but not a drill.


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## DC23 (Mar 28, 2014)

One place I won't be taking my guitar. Thanks for posting!


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Rollin Hand said:


> Wow, that's bad. I can't believe that was done by the guy they have listed on their website -- his reputation is good, to my knowledge. Maybe an apprentice?
> 
> A question -- did the manager hand the guitar back with the apology, or did the owner of this poor, poor guitar complain?


I got the impression they just gave it to him and when he looked at it he asked what had happened. You do not hand a mistake like this back to the customer. You figure out how to make it right, fess up and give him some options.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Ok, it’s not April 1…

The picture reminds me of that scallopowned picture we used to see when that craze came out.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

As the guy/store that repaired (?) it, I would be horrified. I would have immediately called the customer to explain the situation and offered a solution/compensation.

This not only says something about the guy performing the work, but also a great deal about the store culture as well.

Where’s the store manager in all this? Shouldn’t he have been told about this immediately? Before the guitar was picked up?

The more I think about this, the more unsettling it is. What store was this again?


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

There’s a lot to be said about knowing ones own limitations. Knowing the difference between when to push yourself ahead to be better, and knowing you are out of your league. There’s no shame in “sorry, I’m not your guy for this”.

I buy from L&M all the time, but they don’t have a good track record of repairs, so I use Folkway. Although, the new guy in the Cambridge store has come in with a fairly lofty resume. Had a few chats with him… but that’s about it.

I hope the deep pockets of the franchise can do the right thing here.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Latole said:


> Too many people rely on banners stores with "prestigious" names without realizing that it is the competence of the people that counts.
> I also doubt that they are graduate luthiers, that they are handymen
> 
> The majority of the best luthiers, for example, have their own place of business.
> ...


L&m contracts out, do they not?

My tech does tech work for l&m and his business.


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## NashvilleDeluxe (Feb 7, 2018)

Oh, dear. When your dentist starts performing a rectal exam, it's time to grab your coat. 
Will, at @la grange guitar workshop


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

Budda said:


> L&m contracts out, do they not?
> 
> My tech does tech work for l&m and his business.


Some do, some have their own “in house”.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

NashvilleDeluxe said:


> Oh, dear. When your dentist starts performing a rectal exam, it's time to grab your coat.
> Will, at @la grange guitar workshop


Proctologist doing a dental exam is even more disturbing!


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## Boyce Philips (Sep 12, 2021)

The only way I could figure out how to change a top loader into a string through was by using a very tiny bit first as a pilot and then re-drill in small increments with larger bits to minimize surface chipping and maintain alignment. Geez that one looks like he just had at it with a 6 pack and a 5/8ths bit. Do you figure he slid the ferrules in with a 16oz claw hammer ? Backwards ?


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

tomee2 said:


> Proctologist doing a dental exam is even more disturbing!


That paints a vulgar picture.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

JBFairthorne said:


> As the guy/store that repaired (?) it, I would be horrified. I would have immediately called the customer to explain the situation and offered a solution/compensation.
> 
> This not only says something about the guy performing the work, but also a great deal about the store culture as well.
> 
> ...


L&M on Hunt Club Road, Ottawa


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Budda said:


> L&m contracts out, do they not?
> 
> My tech does tech work for l&m and his business.


We already pretty much determined this was the case. Was subbed out to a kindergarten.


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## Vally (Aug 18, 2016)

1SweetRide said:


> The store manager apologized, didn’t charge for the work and is going to talk to the tech on Monday.


I think he should fire the tech on Monday


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

It must be tricky to drill through that old finish and not having it crack.

Does anyone know how to do it? Maybe warm it up a bit?


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

player99 said:


> It must be tricky to drill through that old finish and not having it crack.
> 
> Does anyone know how to do it? Maybe warm it up a bit?


Maybe not use an impact drill?


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## MarkM (May 23, 2019)

Boyce Philips said:


> The only way I could figure out how to change a top loader into a string through was by using a very tiny bit first as a pilot and then re-drill in small increments with larger bits to minimize surface chipping and maintain alignment. Geez that one looks like he just had at it with a 6 pack and a 5/8ths bit. Do you figure he slid the ferrules in with a 16oz claw hammer ? Backwards ?


I would add masking tape and sharp drill bits, I am not sure those ferrules aren't threaded?


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## Boyce Philips (Sep 12, 2021)

Do you mean fluted ? The Fenders I have installed just slid in with a bit of wax they were not fluted. Some of the online ferrules are fluted (probably better for refits than fresh installs).. You would definitely need a hard steel guide to get it perfect as someone mentioned..One thing that would help for sure is drill real slow.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Unlike any other hole drilled into a guitar body, these have nothing going over them to hide the rough edges - strap buttons, pickguards, jack plates, neck plates, string trees, tuners, ... all cover the hole drilled. These damn things need to be perfect - aligned, spaced, vertical and the hole edge can't be rough. I'm convinced Fender used them just to have something on his flat slab of wood that was hard to reproduce.


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## Whammer Jammer (Sep 7, 2019)

player99 said:


> It must be tricky to drill through that old finish and not having it crack.
> 
> Does anyone know how to do it? Maybe warm it up a bit?


Haven't tried it, but I remember reading someone in guitar production solving the same issue by heating the ferrules up with a solding iron to soften up the finish


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## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

Whammer Jammer said:


> Haven't tried it, but I remember reading someone in guitar production solving the same issue by heating the ferrules up with a solding iron to soften up the finish


Masking tape over the area to be drilled, properly spaced 1/8" pilot holes and *Reversing* the bits until you are through the top coat / finish is the method used to prevent finish chipping.
Depending on the type of wood ,I will often leave the drill in reverse to finished diameter and depth.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

loudtubeamps said:


> Masking tape over the area to be drilled, properly spaced 1/8" pilot holes and *Reversing* the bits until you are through the top coat / finish is the method used to prevent finish chipping.
> Depending on the type of wood ,I will often leave the drill in reverse to finished diameter and depth.



Yes that works.

Alternatively if you use a brad point drill and gently start it manually (score the poly or nitro with the outer cutting edge of the brad gently before starting the motor) you won't likely chew up the finish.

Actually, you'd have to be pretty rough to fu$k up a ferrule install that badly.

That's why I though it might have been a joke thread.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

To me, one of the worst parts is that, if this is an older Carvin, then this is a neck-through.

The only practical way to save it now is to route CLEANLY for a brass insert.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

1SweetRide said:


> That’s what my recommendation was but Jerome was too busy.


I don't recall being contacted. I do have the occasional email through my site end up in the spam folder that I always forget to check. I don't ever say I'm too busy for a job though. Or maybe it was in the summer when I was about to go on holiday.
Anyway, the posts above pretty much tell the story of how to handle that job. You can even score with a BP bit by hand until you are through to the wood.

edit; Actually, I do remember that guitar. It's a Carvin that someone had removed a Kahler trem from and installed a stop tail and tunamatic style bridge. Problem was, the set neck angle was made for a lower profile bridge. I think he was going to check out some hardtail type bridges and put one of those on and do a string-through. Anyway, clearly there was some kind of breakdown in communication because I would've done all that for him. I may have missed responding to a text or something. Covid times have definitely put a lot of pressure on work- not that I'm complaining. It's good to be busy.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Once you manage to drill the holes without chewing up the finish, I recommend pressing the ferrules in as opposed to pounding them in.

@Silvertone shared his method with this site and I like it. You just put a drill bit in the drill press backwards (with the point inside the chuck) and you have a nice improvised arbor press.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

laristotle said:


> Providing that the next guy knows how to use a router. lol
> View attachment 380346


Yeah, my Godin LGs both have something similar.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

So today, the tech tells my buddy not to worry about how it looks. Just enjoy how it sounds. Award for the most bullshit answer ever.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

1SweetRide said:


> So today, the tech tells my buddy not to worry about how it looks. Just enjoy how it sounds. Award for the most bullshit answer ever.



That's fine when you're working on your own guitar.

Otherwise compensation is in order. There's just no need to ever have a ferrule installation look like that one. At least have them evenly spaced for f7$k's sake.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

1SweetRide said:


> So today, the tech tells my buddy not to worry about how it looks. Just enjoy how it sounds. Award for the most bullshit answer ever.


I would walk into the store, ask to see the manager in person, do t waste a second explaining myself to anyone else, tell the manager the situation, especially the tech’s response. If I couldn’t come to a sensible and equitable arrangement, then I would take it up tue chain. I’ve frequently heard of people emailing Steve(?) Long and actually getting a reply and a resolution but I have no experience.

End of the day, I would negotiate tue best deal I could and NEVER enter that store again. Never online order from that branch. Never put a penny of my $ in their register. NEVER. Furthermore, I would shout about this experience from the rooftops. Too many excellent businesses, run by people who care, people who believe in accountability and in serving the customer, who operate the right way…going under these days. I refuse to support a business that doesn’t deserve to serve the public.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Negotiate to have it repaired, by zztomato above perhaps? 
At this point it would have to the brass insert or something? ...any experts have advice on what would repair this so it doesn't look like shit?


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I would be seeking replacement personally but I would accept what I could get. Unless the item was of a personal nature, I would even accept store credit…to be used at another branch.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

JBFairthorne said:


> I would be seeking replacement personally but I would accept what I could get. Unless the item was of a personal nature, I would even accept store credit…to be used at another branch.


You mean a new guitar? I'm thinking along the lines of this being older and maybe not easily replaced with an exact equivalent.


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## Knightrhyme (Sep 20, 2021)

1SweetRide said:


> Told my friend to take it to one of the members here. No, he was told L&M on Hunt Club had an amazing guitar tech. Well, here’s what the result was from having ferrules installed.
> 
> They owe him a new guitar.
> 
> View attachment 380256


Hello all. 

Firstly, let me just say that this is an incredible and hilarious community. This is my Guitar, and is great to be able to laugh along with you in this. ( Which I can do because Long and McQuade stepped up. The détails of it are between them and me. But. Suffice to say they did the right thing. ). 

I have to admit I was pretty heartbroken when this happened. I am new to electrics, having played more accoustic - let’s be honest, I’m the talentless hack that screams into the microphone while surrounded by actual musicians. … 

That said ..I have had botched jobs … plumbing, wonky car tires …. Stonework on the house, etc. 

However, this Hurt. Like really made me feel sick. Perhaps it’s the Fact that we pour a little bit of ourselves into the music that We play, and the tool we use to do that is an extension of our soul ….

Regardless …. Thankyou, dear Bandmate, for posting this.

Thank you, guitar dudes and duets for your comments. 
I got some much needed …wait for it … Smileage .. out of this thread.

Thank you Long and McQuade, for stepping up to make this right. 

PS. To Glèbe guitars - I did reach out, after you re fretted her, and the action was high..
I did not hear back … I read your post. About being on holidays. 
No hard feelings …. If she is fixable …. .

Cheers all - Happy Strumming


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Well, not necessarily a new guitar, but at least a reasonable used retail value. They cou led certainly work something out. I would only seek repair if the guitar had some personal meaning to me. It would forever be tainted. I would never be able to pick it up and NOT see the terrible repair job regardless of how they re repaired it.


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## Knightrhyme (Sep 20, 2021)

zztomato said:


> I don't recall being contacted. I do have the occasional email through my site end up in the spam folder that I always forget to check. I don't ever say I'm too busy for a job though. Or maybe it was in the summer when I was about to go on holiday.
> Anyway, the posts above pretty much tell the story of how to handle that job. You can even score with a BP bit by hand until you are through to the wood.
> 
> edit; Actually, I do remember that guitar. It's a Carvin that someone had removed a Kahler trem from and installed a stop tail and tunamatic style bridge. Problem was, the set neck angle was made for a lower profile bridge. I think he was going to check out some hardtail type bridges and put one of those on and do a string-through. Anyway, clearly there was some kind of breakdown in communication because I would've done all that for him. I may have missed responding to a text or something. Covid times have definitely put a lot of pressure on work- not that I'm complaining. It's good to be busy.


It is a Cavin. Responded elsewhere in thread.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

I know the details of the resolution but if my buddy chooses to keep it private, I won’t detail them either. Suffice it to say they (L&M) were very generous and it will help my buddy put this behind him.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

No need for histrionics.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

As they say across the pond "Keep Calm and Carry On". Usually preceded by "Mind the Gap".


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## DeeTee (Apr 16, 2018)

1SweetRide said:


> As they say across the pond "Keep Calm and Carry On". Usually preceded by "Mind the Gap".


We usually find that "Mind the gap" precedes a mad scramble for the Tube doors, and woe betide anyone in the way.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

1SweetRide said:


> So today, the tech tells my buddy not to worry about how it looks. Just enjoy how it sounds. Award for the most bullshit answer ever.


If the tech actually said that, he deserves a punch in the mouth.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

DeeTee said:


> We usually find that "Mind the gap" precedes a mad scramble for the Tube doors, and woe betide anyone in the way.


I thought they were referring to The Chive.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I thought they were referring to The Chive.


The Chive?


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## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

#Relic


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