# Learn challenging stuff before the easy?



## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

I'm not young, but I'm new to guitar playing. I started 3 years ago with lessons that were the basics. E and A chord shapes, I IV V progressions etc. Not much open chords or the "cowboy chords" as I've heard them described.
So I got the barre chords down and can play random progressions and a few chord progressions from a few classic songs. That took 18 months.

FFWD to a now. A new teacher is teaching me challenging blues riffs. Sweet Home Chicago and other blues tunes that have me going from the 2nd to the 12th fret and back and forth all over the neck.

Then I watch Austin City Limits and I see someone barely move their hands, just a couple of fingers, and they're playing songs. On stage. Next song a capo comes out and it's a few small hand movements and another great song. On stage, live, and on TV. Great stuff that looks easy.

Am I missing something? Should I have learned to play like that first?
It's taking me weeks to get a few bars of this all over the neck playing to sound, well, barely listenable.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Learning the hard stuff first is a good way to give up fast. Many, many great songs are a couple of chords. Sweet Home Chicago will be a good tune to learn how to improvise with scales. I think it’s in E.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

What are your goals, musically? Have that discussion with your teacher, then map a plan to get there.

I agree that learning hard stuff first is pointless. How would you understand it?

If you can play E and A open position, learning G C and D will come. Then it's a case of putting in the time to practice switch between chords effortlessly.

All you need is 3 chords and you too can play live on tv. Since you have barre chords, you're technically there already.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

I'm thinking I need a different teacher. If I could play a few classic rock tunes or just bits of them like some acdc or black sabbath I'd be good. Maybe. I started thinking I wanted to play jazz, now the blues, now maybe I just want to play songs people know. 

I do know that the challenging stuff is making me play better. It took 3 weeks but I go from the 12th high e fret to 2nd fret A now. I think that's his point.
I asked about easier stuff. He said that's boring.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Budda said:


> What are your goals, musically? Have that discussion with your teacher, then map a plan to get there.
> 
> I agree that learning hard stuff first is pointless. How would you understand it?
> 
> ...


I know, right? I can do a I IV V effortlessly, but I cant play a song. I can do barre 7, minor and major, E and A string.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Tell him all the money is before the fifth fret.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

tomee2 said:


> I know, right? I can do a I IV V effortlessly, but I cant play a song. I can do barre 7, minor and major, E and A string.


If you can play I IV V, you can play a ton of songs.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Trying to learn challenging material before you've learned all the skills necessary to pull it off sounds like a recipe for frustration to me. I've always looked at learning guitar like building lego. A piece here, a piece there, attach them together like so, add another piece or two and now it's starting to resemble something. You have to build on what you've already learned in order to progress.

I've found, for me, I have the most success if I learn within a context. I pick a skill I want to work on and then work on three or four songs that use that element. Sooner or later, you'll find that as you're learning new songs, you have 80% of the skills needed to play it (a good base of lego blocks) and you really only need to learn the other 20%.

Trying to learn advanced material/skills when you're just a beginner is why you find so many used, mint condition entry level guitars for sale on kijiji. I mean, once you realize you're not going to be a rock star in ten minutes and it's actually very hard to learn and takes a great deal of time and effort, well, you might as well just quit right?


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Just keep learning. Learn everything you need to do what you want to. Then learn to do it better. Finally, go learn some more.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Thanks for all the advice guys. I wish I had started younger, and had lots of time to build up skills, but heck at least I started. My goal is 5 years to play a few songs, complete, and maybe be able to solo to chord progressions on a looper. I’m just over 3 years in and have made ok progress. If I could do 70s rock like Johan Segeborn on YouTube I’d be pretty happy too. 

I’ll stick with it a while longer. He said doing these exercises in E then A then other keys will allow me to play lead lines anywhere on the neck. it’s also building up my hand movement skills, although slowly. 
If it turns out I’m not progressing or enjoying it in a few months, I’ll have to move on.

Also, my son is teaching me some songs on the first few frets, and he’s learning them from his friend at school. We did Wonderwall the other day.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

cboutilier said:


> Just keep learning. Learn everything you need to do what you want to. Then learn to do it better. Finally, go learn some more.


This applies to everything, from programming in Java to BBQing... Good advice!


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## Guest (May 6, 2019)

Do what he says. Stick with that teacher for maximum learning in minimum time.

BUT!!!

At the same time learn songs on your own. Easy ones, medium ones. Build up a book of songs you can play and sing.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

It isn't really bad to learn stuff. Just frustrating if you aren't ready to learn that stuff yet. You gotta walk before you can run (or learn the basics of electricity before you build a Hadron collider). I would keep doing what you're doing as long as it isn't making you want to quit or break things - but I would definitely spend some time learning the basic open chords. They are the foundation of many other, more difficult skills.

But good on you for just doing it. I've got friends that for 10 years have been talking about it. Imagine where they'd be now if they just did what you're doing.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Always try to push your perceived limits. You may surprise yourself.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I try to learn the 4/4 riff of the song before moving on to the following 9/8-8/8-7/8 onslaught that way when I screw up twelve times in a row I can retreat back to the easy opening riff and feel accomplished


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

tomee2 said:


> Am I missing something? Should I have learned to play like that first?


Yes. Foundation first. There are players I'd call party guitar guys. They know the shredder drop your jaw lick from a bunch of songs and can pull them all out one after the other. 

But haven't ever played in a band or to back somebody up singing - can't get in the groove and play through a whole song in a musical way to save their lives. Concentrate too much on left hand fretted stuff and not enough right hand strum/pick/finger consistency and technique. 

If you like pushing the boundaries and learning the tough stuff have at it more power to ya. But your foundation playing in a live set as a less experienced player is going to rely on your ability to keep a steady rhythm, switch cleanly between 3-5 chords in the keys of A, E, D, G, and C, and play musically in conversation with a singer and bass player. 

I don't know what your tastes run to but here's a couple of examples. Mavis Staples has a damn good band backing her up. When she sings Wade in the Water there's a very talented rhythm guitar player in that band holding down an Em chord THROUGH THE WHOLE SONG with no changes at all just keeping the rhythm section locked in with the bass player and the drummer. Check out Adam Baldwin's cover of the Tom Petty song Kings Highway on YouTube. That's a 4 chord song all in cowboy chords key of G and you can pull it off without the Em if you want to. Just good steady playing in the groove. He's a great player and can really do the blues but know when to keep it to the basics. U2's Where the Streets Have No Name is all nice and delay soaked but check out the live version at Glastonbury by Muse with The Edge sitting in where it's super clear that he's mostly a very good rhythm player on a simple repetitive chord structure. Even his single note 'lead' bits are pulled out of the chord shape he's in by good right hand technique and musical judgement. 

Guitar playing is like building a house. If your foundation is good the trim will come along when it comes and it will be nice too. But if the foundation isn't there all the fancy pants trim in the world is just a pile of sticks. Build the foundation first and get in a band and play a bunch of live gigs in church or coffeehouse or bar bands or campfire singalong or whatever suits your style. Good licks will grow out of a strong foundation. 

Thus concludes today's rant. We now return to regularly scheduled programming. 

j


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Hey, nice rant! I'm not sure I'll ever play in a band but if I can't play at least a dozen campfire songs that people can sing along to yet I can do the opening to Sweet Home Chicago I think there is a problem. 
I'm reassessing all this. I've got 3 more lessons then a break as the teacher goes on a tour. I think he's a great player and teacher but he's focused only on one way of teaching one style. I think I need to learn the basics better, for sure. Em rhythm I can do all day, well maybe 5 minutes!
I'll check out those videos for sure, and thanks for confirming what I always thought, that the Edge is a gifted artist-musician more than a guitar virtuoso. I mean that in a good way.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

I liked to dive in head first ... but I never was too bright.


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## Cardamonfrost (Dec 12, 2018)

Perhaps a different instructor is in order. Or, a convo with the instructor to let them know you need a more 'formal' education.

The reality of the situation, and every instructor has gone through this, is that if you start teaching the tools for self development (theory), you will lose the student immediately. The new student (first or second instructor) will not want to write out scales or even hear triad lectures, even if they are only 5 mins... What keeps a student around for 4 weeks at 1 lesson a week is a couple pop radio tunes and a bunch of riffs so they can feel like a star. New stuff every week, because they really don't understand how much work it takes to learn something, they think they are 'learning' when you put their fingers on the right frets for them. Ugly reality of 'instruction' right there. Even beginning adult students fall for this.

More importantly, when they go home, mommy and daddy can hear them butchering Ironman or Crazy train - it may suck, but they know where their money is going. It has the appearance of progress, even though, there is no foundation that will advance them in the future. However, they will be back next week.

The only way to get real value from an instructor, unfortunately, is to have a pretty good idea what you want from instruction (so, not a beginning guitarist anymore). Know who your idol is, what your favorite songs are, and where you want to be in 5 years. You may not be there yet, but consider interviewing a couple instructors. See if they already know pertinent things like, i.e. if you are into the Grateful Dead, can they tell you who the band members are? Can they play a couple tunes from them? etc. May seem like overkill, but its really not. For them to teach you what you need, they need to know it already.

For someone who is really interested in music, the ideal lesson is (at least) 50% what you need to know and the balance what you want to know.

1) Its impossible to get the right instructor the first time. 2) A good instructor can only give you the right tools. 3) Only you can make you the guitarist you want to be.

C


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

2 and 3 ring true.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

tomee2 said:


> I asked about easier stuff. He said that's boring.


A player that can really play can take a simple idea and make you shout, cry, and break out in the sweats. 

It's got a couple of passing chords in it that you don't know yet but take a listen to Norah Jones, Willie Nelson, and Wynton Marsalis do the jazz / country standard "Cryin' Time" The guitar tone is awful, the guitar playing isn't great, the musical structure is simple, but the whole bunch of them are pro players known for their musicality.

I'd be wary of a teacher telling a beginner student not to work in foundation skills because their boring. 

Edited for tact

J


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Had another lesson on Friday. I hadn't practiced enough to really move on so we went I over these riffs again.
Its 2 12 bar blues bits in E being melded together. A bit of one, then the other. Its challenging, in terms of moving my hand around and picking different patterns. But, it doesn't seem musical. Maybe if I was 20 and had 30 years ahead of me I'd stick with this. 
I'll do 2 more lessons then have to say I'm done. 

My first teacher was more about fundamentals, with a bit more theory, and learning the standard chords. He was teaching a system that would let me play along to most songs, which was why the barre chords were important. So he was probably on the right track for me but I didn't know it. 

I think I'm most interested in classic rock so I'll have a look around. I'd also love to play jazz but I think that might be out of my potential...

Thanks to all for all the well thought advice.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

tomee2 said:


> I hadn't practiced enough to really move on


 there's your answer 

10,000 hrs to get proficient ... that means a few blisters and time 
you may have to hang it up right now and wait till you have more motivation


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Not quite sure how hanging it up right now will inspire any type of motivation. Maybe take a breather and reassess your commitment and time schedule. It's worth it to work something out with your schedule and stick to it.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

guess we're saying the same thing , just different words .

if he isn't motivated to practice now , he may in the future. 
one only has so many hours in the day .
might be more fun to hang out / party / lay in the sun right now.

5 years from now ( and older) he may knuckle down and get to it.
heck , might be after retirement or never .... his choice.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I don't follow. Are you done lessons with this teacher, or are you done lessons?

You can probably throw a stone in Ottawa and find someone who can teach you how to play classic rock style guitar (given it's mostly a few chords and knowing how to switch up pentatonic major/minor). That being said, it takes time and practice to become proficient in playing it *well*. AC/DC sounds real easy right up until you want to play it perfectly.

Every jazz musician started out without knowing how to play their instrument. No one in any capacity just knows how to do something. Jazz isn't outside your level, you just have to decide if you're going to dedicate the time required to play it.

I wish you the best of luck.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

oldjoat said:


> there's your answer
> 
> 10,000 hrs to get proficient ... that means a few blisters and time
> you may have to hang it up right now and wait till you have more motivation


It was a tough few weeks with work and some travel time in there. 3 kids in sports etc. Drove to NJ for a soccer tournament one weekend then TO to help my daughter the next. I'm not sitting on my ass here looking at my guitar, I practice 1 hour or more every day that I can which is about 5 times a week. 

I'm questioning this because my wife and son, both who play piano very well, ask why I'm not playing songs, or in my wife's words "at least something that sounds musical"


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

oldjoat said:


> ....
> one only has so many hours in the day .
> might be more fun to hang out / party / lay in the sun right now.
> 
> ...


I haven't partied or just sat in the sun in years.
50 hour work week, and 40000km each year driving kids to practices and games and tournaments. I don't watch TV, or even Netflix. 
I'm motivated, just worried I'm learning the wrong stuff.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Budda said:


> I don't follow. Are you done lessons with this teacher, or are you done lessons?
> ....


This teacher.
The reason I quit my first teacher was the time slot conflicted with my kids sports. Its frustrating but up here hockey practices are scheduled with 2 weeks notice so keeping to a fixed schedule of anything else is just a nightmare. He was good and I might look him up again. 
This new teacher is close to work and is flexible with times.
Yes, plenty of teachers up here, and then there are all the online choices, YouTube lessons, books etc. I'm trying to stick with a real person because they correct me right away when I start doing something wrong.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

oldjoat said:


> one only has so many hours in the day .


you never stated your age , so those "party" things were thrown in.

welcome to middle age ( and mileage) MJF$#MJF$#MJF$#

it usually gets easier the closer you get to retirement, and after. 
Until the wife gets the travel and see the world, bug.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

tomee2 said:


> It was a tough few weeks with work and some travel time in there. 3 kids in sports etc. Drove to NJ for a soccer tournament one weekend then TO to help my daughter the next. I'm not sitting on my ass here looking at my guitar, I practice 1 hour or more every day that I can which is about 5 times a week.
> 
> I'm questioning this because my wife and son, both who play piano very well, ask why I'm not playing songs, or in my wife's words "at least something that sounds musical"


Tell her she doesn't understand "the way of the guitar"!


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

tomee2 said:


> "at least something that sounds musical"


 I play the radio


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

oldjoat said:


> 10,000 hrs to get proficient ...


Except that there's not a clear line that you cross when you're crap beforehand and an expert afterwards. 

That's why the foundation playing comes first. 

If he can strum 4 or 5 chords in a couple of common keys and chug a few barres he could play happily for years without ever hitting 10K hours. And even do a fair bit of performing. 

The fact that he can't improvise fluently in E-flat minor or play all the appropriate diminished and augmented inversions by ear won't ever matter to him or to most players. 

I was getting down on my slow progress years ago when I was in high school. I liked blues and read an interview with Buddy Guy who said he only knew how to play in A. The man made an entire career out of the key of A and a couple of pentatonic scale patterns. Then I felt better. But I still didn't become a famous professional player even though I knew more theory than he did. Go figger. 

j


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

the point was ... it takes lotsa practice to get anywhere ... 
never met anyone who just picked up a guitar, learned 3 chords and started playing like a seasoned player.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

oldjoat said:


> the point was ... it takes lotsa practice to get anywhere ...
> never met anyone who just picked up a guitar, learned 3 chords and started playing like a seasoned player.


But lotsa people happily play their entire lives with 3 chords and a capo and if you wait to start performing until you're good it won't ever happen. 

I've got a little summer outdoor festival small town gig coming up in June. Dad-rock feel good cover stuff. U2, Tom Petty, Dire Straits, Van Morrison, Mavis Staples. All of them are 4 chord songs and you could do an entertaining basic versions with cowboy chord strumming. One Bros. Landreth cover in there that has a couple of passing chords but it's the exception not the rule. 

I think what you say is right - takes lots of practice to get anywhere - but being a seasoned player is mostly not fret hand technical chops. It includes stuff you can only practice by doing it - being able to play in the groove with others, getting over stage jitters, having your left hand stay in one spot all evening while you concentrate on right hand rhythm, setting up an amp tone that balances with the rest of the live sound, tuning in the middle of the set, etc. You don't learn any of that stuff woodshedding minor pentatonic licks in 10 position in your bedroom. 

j


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I learn easynstuff but try at least 1 hard thing everyday. Right now it is the intro to Closer to the Heart.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

music I like is now called Dad-rock.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

tomee2 said:


> music I like is now called Dad-rock.


you've seen the short movie I assume?

with ... whazzizname from Alice in Chains


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## Rozz (Aug 1, 2018)

tomee2 said:


> I'm questioning this because my wife and son, both who play piano very well, ask why I'm not playing songs, or in my wife's words "at least something that sounds musical"


Because I am concentrating on a harmonious family life honey. Plus, all the kids have to do is hit the white keys and it sounds musical. But thanks for noticing...and commenting. ;-)

There are a million good teachers/players on YouTube these days you can use for free. There are guys who teach basic/intermediate/advanced theory, chords, scales, licks, songs, even how to practice efficiently. 

You just need to figure out what you want to learn, which instructor(s) you connect with best with and come up with a detailed practice schedule and stick to it....which is why people take lessons locally. lol. However if you have the will and discipline you can define your own path on your own time. You would have to put a bit more time into it, but you could pick your spots.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> you've seen the short movie I assume?
> 
> with ... whazzizname from Alice in Chains


No... but I'll watch it tonight!


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Rozz said:


> Because I am concentrating on a harmonious family life honey. Plus, all the kids have to do is hit the white keys and it sounds musical. But thanks for noticing...and commenting. ;-)
> 
> There are a million good teachers/players on YouTube these days you can use for free. There are guys who teach basic/intermediate/advanced theory, chords, scales, licks, songs, even how to practice efficiently.
> 
> You just need to figure out what you want to learn, which instructor(s) you connect with best with and come up with a detailed practice schedule and stick to it....which is why people take lessons locally. lol. However if you have the will and discipline you can define your own path on your own time. You would have to put a bit more time into it, but you could pick your spots.


Good points. It is the discipline that a teacher brings that I'm after, and spotting and stopping the bad habits as they develop. 

I've bumped up my practice time...I was not really practicing as much as I thought I was (I started a diary). This is making a big difference so I'm thinking I'll stick with the teacher i have. 1 full hour or more of really focusing on what I'm trying to learn is really good and I need to do that consistently. 
My son is teaching me easy songs with simple chords which is great.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Don't worry about anyone not liking the woodshedding thing @tomee2 . That's what makes you a better player. I'm not sure where you are in your playing but if you can get a couple of tunes together and go play live at an open mic or whatnot, and drag your wife with you, she'll see the results with a great amount of pride in her husband. My wife, then girlfriend did the same to me when I was taking music in College. Couldn't stand the constant reps of, according to her ear, the same stuff over and over and over again...and again....and again. Get 3 or so tunes shedded and give your people a live concert when you have it down tight. Take it as a challenge to your musicval sensibilities and your manhood!!  If you want to know what's real bad, when I was taking piano lessons at about 12 years old my piano teachers dogs, who were locked up in the basement, started to howl the entire time I was reciting a Classical tune for her for an upcoming RCM exam.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Dorian2 said:


> Don't worry about anyone not liking the woodshedding thing @tomee2 . for an upcoming RCM exam.
> 
> i've played a fair bit over the years and I was talking to my sister a while ago who is a pro player about the hardest contexts to play in
> 
> ...


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Yeah. I took the Classical guitar recital for grade 1 for RCM as well when I was a bit older. Brutal honesty sets in real quick. And they hold no quarter. I nailed all the aspects but was given a - 5% because I wasn't using enough Dynamics. Still got 1st class honors but my guitar teacher was like "WTF, you've only been playing Classical for 3 months. What do they expect?" lol


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I just watched a really cool video on this subject. Basically the instructor says there are ego songs and project songs. Ego songs are the songs you can play well and have fun with. They make you feel good when you play. You don't have to know the whole song, you don't have to play it correctly, but if you do play, someone would recognize it. A project song is something that you want to play but will have or are having problems with. You should have 3 ego songs for every project song you want to learn. So Last Kiss and Hotel California strummed could be ego songs, but something like Classical Gas would be a project song.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

knight_yyz said:


> I just watched a really cool video on this subject. Basically the instructor says there are ego songs and project songs. Ego songs are the songs you can play well and have fun with. They make you feel good when you play. You don't have to know the whole song, you don't have to play it correctly, but if you do play, someone would recognize it. A project song is something that you want to play but will have or are having problems with. You should have 3 ego songs for every project song you want to learn. So Last Kiss and Hotel California strummed could be ego songs, but something like Classical Gas would be a project song.


Love the way that's stated. The real kicker is that when the Project songs become your top goto Ego songs. Then you know it "happening".


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