# Bill is making Klons!!! (And selling them!)



## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

Hey,I saw this in the now defunct Book of Face, but it seems that Bill Finnegan builds them to help out his neighbor from time to time to help pay the bills.

Klon Centaur Professional Overdrive, silver finish | eBay


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

he's not asking enough

Klon Centaur Professional Overdrive Gold Long Tail Horsie Low Serial #


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

vadsy said:


> he's not asking enough
> 
> Klon Centaur Professional Overdrive Gold Long Tail Horsie Low Serial #



OMFG. I'm constantly amazed that people stupid enough to pay that kind of money for a $300 pedal were at one time smart enough to make that kind of money. 

Or is it all inheritors and/or lottery winners?


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

vadsy said:


> he's not asking enough
> 
> Klon Centaur Professional Overdrive Gold Long Tail Horsie Low Serial #


His starting bid was $450 USD. I mean.....what’s the Archer going for now?


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## fogdart (Mar 22, 2017)

I'm slightly bewildered by this...

There's no doubt that the Klon is a great sounding pedal (I've got a Klon type in my rig), but is there an unidentifiable ingredient that makes the real Klon better than an exact clone? Until I saw this eBay ad, I figured that there must have been caps or pots used in the original release that aren't available now. Guess not. Bill is still getting ahold of the parts, so what stops a guy like Ceriatone 0r @Morattoampshop from making a true exact copy? Or, maybe the secret ingredients are gone, and this new Klon reissue won't have the same magic as the originals. In which case it's just a stupidly expensive klone.

Anyone?


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

craziness


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

What. It will only cost an arm, a leg and two testicles.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The pedal is intended, and desiged, to help an already great-sounding amp move from almost breaking up to breaking up beautifully. As the customer comment Bill would include in his intermittent ads would say: "It sounds like my amp, only bigger". So, based on that, I figure three outcomes of these ads:
1) The intended purchaser is fabulously wealthy and has a great amp.
2) The intended purchaser will not be able to afford a great amp after buying the pedal.
3) The intended purchaser has absolutely no idea what the pedal is intended to do.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

mhammer said:


> The pedal is intended, and desiged, to help an already great-sounding amp move from almost breaking up to breaking up beautifully. As the customer comment Bill would include in his intermittent ads would say: "It sounds like my amp, only bigger". So, based on that, I figure three outcomes of these ads:
> 1) The intended purchaser is fabulously wealthy and has a great amp.
> 2) The intended purchaser will not be able to afford a great amp after buying the pedal.
> 3) The intended purchaser has absolutely no idea what the pedal is intended to do.


And that's why I sold my original and the JHS clone (which is the only clone Bill got angry over - do you know why? Ask him....).

I hate the sound of most amps breaking up.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

bzrkrage said:


> Hey,I saw this in the now defunct Book of Face, but it seems that Bill Finnegan builds them to help out his neighbor from time to time to help pay the bills.
> 
> Klon Centaur Professional Overdrive, silver finish | eBay


I won't get into the debate of weather or not the Klon is a great pedal. We don't need a gear page incident here. But it's been well known for a while that Bill is a douchey prick. He claims he's helping out a friend that's a single mom or some BS but he's really just capitalizing on the hype and selling new pedals under pseudonyms. He admitted in a interview once that Klon number one is actually number 10. He made number serial number 2 thru 10 first to fill orders then went back later to make number 1 for himself.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

adcandour said:


> And that's why I sold my original and the JHS clone (which is the only clone Bill got angry over - do you know why? Ask him....).
> 
> I hate the sound of most amps breaking up.


Josh is a douche to that just steals designs.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

fogdart said:


> I'm slightly bewildered by this...
> 
> There's no doubt that the Klon is a great sounding pedal (I've got a Klon type in my rig), but is there an unidentifiable ingredient that makes the real Klon better than an exact clone? Until I saw this eBay ad, I figured that there must have been caps or pots used in the original release that aren't available now. Guess not. Bill is still getting ahold of the parts, so what stops a guy like Ceriatone 0r @Morattoampshop from making a true exact copy? Or, maybe the secret ingredients are gone, and this new Klon reissue won't have the same magic as the originals. In which case it's just a stupidly expensive klone.
> 
> Anyone?


The entire circuit is known save for one (unlabelled) and important part - the clipping diodes. Bill himself considers these critical and therefore a carefully guarded secret. The original boards were 'gooped' to make tracing the circuit harder. Before the Klones came out (enabling them to come out) a number of internet-famous DIY pedal builders (mHammer knows em) degooped and traced the citrcuit, and also extracted the diodes from multiple Klons and tested them; using these measurements they speculated on what the diodes could be and suggested work-alike alternatives. The debate is how close to being right they are about that.

Mass produced Klones (e.g. EH Soul Food) are less likely to use anything close to the original diodes; they'd use something more commonly available as new prod today. Some boutique Klones are "better" for that reason. 

In my build I used the (widely accepted, but still debated, to be [close to] what was used by Bill) - Russian D9E germaniums.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Granny Gremlin said:


> The entire circuit is known save for one (unlabelled) and important part - the clipping diodes. Bill himself considers these critical and therefore a carefully guarded secret. The original boards were 'gooped' to make tracing the circuit harder. Before the Klones came out (enabling them to come out) a number of internet-famous DIY pedal builders (mHammer knows em) degooped and traced the citrcuit, and also extracted the diodes from multiple Klons and tested them; using these measurements they speculated on what the diodes could be and suggested work-alike alternatives. The debate is how close to being right they are about that.
> 
> Mass produced Klones (e.g. EH Soul Food) are less likely to use anything close to the original diodes; they'd use something more commonly available as new prod today. Some boutique Klones are "better" for that reason.
> 
> In my build I used the (widely accepted, but still debated, to be [close to] what was used by Bill) - Russian D9E germaniums.


Do you know what JHS used? That's the only company that bill confronted, so maybe there was something to that.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

adcandour said:


> Do you know what JHS used? That's the only company that bill confronted, so maybe there was something to that.


Not a clue; haven't bothered to try to find out cuz don't care ( I build my own). I suspect the confrontation was based on JHS being just big enough to make the point, but not too big so as to fight back 
hard with a crack team of lawyers ( EH).

Even without the same diodes, the Klon circuit is unique enough to make the case IMHO ( evidence: people copy just the buffer section as stand alone pedal, though I'd say the rest of the circuit is even more unique). It's not just another tube screamer or DS/OD -1 variant for example.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2018)

I have 2 klones. They sound slightly different but both are very useful. Together works great too.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I've tried a few, including the original, and I like the Arc Effects one most.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Player99 said:


> I have 2 klones. They sound slightly different but both are very useful. Together works great too.


Oh yeah; they stack well.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2018)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Oh yeah; they stack well.


I have a 2nd run Aluminum Falcon II (1st run had errors) and a Rimrock Lil Mo. I keep the drive very low. The AF2 is a little softer and sweeter sounding, the Lil Mo is tougher sounding. Both are great.


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## fogdart (Mar 22, 2017)

Granny Gremlin said:


> The entire circuit is known save for one (unlabelled) and important part - the clipping diodes. Bill himself considers these critical and therefore a carefully guarded secret. The original boards were 'gooped' to make tracing the circuit harder. Before the Klones came out (enabling them to come out) a number of internet-famous DIY pedal builders (mHammer knows em) degooped and traced the citrcuit, and also extracted the diodes from multiple Klons and tested them; using these measurements they speculated on what the diodes could be and suggested work-alike alternatives. The debate is how close to being right they are about that.
> 
> Mass produced Klones (e.g. EH Soul Food) are less likely to use anything close to the original diodes; they'd use something more commonly available as new prod today. Some boutique Klones are "better" for that reason.
> 
> In my build I used the (widely accepted, but still debated, to be [close to] what was used by Bill) - Russian D9E germaniums.


Great info, thank you. I suppose that's what makes the Klon so easily tweakable to suit each individual builder. All they've gotta do is mess around with a bunch of diodes and decide which one suits them best. I've heard a lot of builders describe their pedal as sounding better (to their ear) than the original. 

I recently bought a Mythos Mjolnir (Klone) Joey Landreth Signature. It runs Russian Germanium Diodes. To my ear, it's the best sounding Klon/Klone that I've played.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

To be quite fair, it's rediculousness like this that i started building my own pedals
Granted, my OCD has a little noise, and my RAT oscillates at high gain, these cost me a third of what buying them would've, and i appreciate them more...my sound is in fact me
But a pedal thats current got a bid of over $1700, just aint for me...
Id fear it being stolen
Id fear it getting broken
If i spent that much for a pedal, the rest of my gear much be insane...
And finally, is it really worth more than the $50 it would take to build it yourself?

And before i get flamed...there are pedals that i like, that i cant build, that are a couple hundred bucks...i would like them, cant afford them...and have nothing against people that can pay a couple hundred for a pedal...thats not my qualm...its the rediculous price tags like this...
But really...is it any different than Gibson? I would love to own the Joe Walsh 1960 signature LP...starting at $10k, no thanks...i think ill just get an R0 and not worry about the other $8k that the signature brings...but even then, i have a hard time wrapping my head around any instrument being worth over $2k


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

ezcomes said:


> To be quite fair, it's rediculousness like this that i started building my own pedals
> Granted, my OCD has a little noise, and my RAT oscillates at high gain, these cost me a third of what buying them would've, and i appreciate them more...my sound is in fact me
> But a pedal thats current got a bid of over $1700, just aint for me...
> Id fear it being stolen
> ...


Haha... you'll be lucky to get a used R0 for $4k... anyways. I'm not saying any of it it's worth it, but to each their own. Cost vs benefit has a lot to do with it and good old fair market value... shit is worth whatever people are willing to pay.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Granny Gremlin said:


> The entire circuit is known save for one (unlabelled) and important part - the clipping diodes. Bill himself considers these critical and therefore a carefully guarded secret. The original boards were 'gooped' to make tracing the circuit harder. Before the Klones came out (enabling them to come out) a number of internet-famous DIY pedal builders (mHammer knows em) degooped and traced the citrcuit, and also extracted the diodes from multiple Klons and tested them; using these measurements they speculated on what the diodes could be and suggested work-alike alternatives. The debate is how close to being right they are about that.
> 
> Mass produced Klones (e.g. EH Soul Food) are less likely to use anything close to the original diodes; they'd use something more commonly available as new prod today. Some boutique Klones are "better" for that reason.
> 
> In my build I used the (widely accepted, but still debated, to be [close to] what was used by Bill) - Russian D9E germaniums.


Though gooping is not the eternally safest or most foolproof strategy for protecting intellectual property, as his ONLY product, Bill used that strategy in a legitimate fashion AFAIC. I suspect if he had a whole series of products, his approach would have been different. When you have only one milk cow, you take good care of her.

Bill sent me two de-gooped boards, one of which Bill provided with every single component socketed, so I could work on the possible changes that Bill was mulling over. I never removed the diodes for measuring, nor did I look at them. The most I can relay, even after water-boarding, is that they were small and glass. He also sent a schematic with the boards, with a number of resistor value showing a line through them, and replaced with 1% values that were sometimes a little higher, sometimes a little lower, than the standard values initially printed on the schematic.

A big part of how the original Klon Centaur works lies in the manner in which two different portions of the overall circuit operate in parallel, using the dual-ganged Gain control. One part of the circuit needs to be behaving in one way, while the other part has to behave in a different way, and they need to be coordinated; like synced left and right legs when skiing. As such, I would imagine the properties of the clipping diodes - particularly their forward voltage - need to be selected for to achieve the desired balance. Other types of signal-preconditioning pedals, like the Soul Food, or even my own Crank design ( http://hammer.ampage.org/files/The_Crank.gif ) may not rely nearly as much on the balancing of two separate pathways as the Klon does.

Is Bill initiating rumours about components as a new strategy for protecting his IP? I have no idea, but he does change things up a teensy bit, the way any chef would taste something, and say "This batch needs just a bit more tarragon".


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

mhammer said:


> Though gooping is not the eternally safest or most foolproof strategy for protecting intellectual property, as his ONLY product, Bill used that strategy in a legitimate fashion AFAIC. I suspect if he had a whole series of products, his approach would have been different. When you have only one milk cow, you take good care of her.
> 
> Bill sent me two de-gooped boards, one of which Bill provided with every single component socketed, so I could work on the possible changes that Bill was mulling over. I never removed the diodes for measuring, nor did I look at them. The most I can relay, even after water-boarding, is that they were small and glass. He also sent a schematic with the boards, with a number of resistor value showing a line through them, and replaced with 1% values that were sometimes a little higher, sometimes a little lower, than the standard values initially printed on the schematic.
> 
> ...


Yep - the dual gang gain pot is exactly what I was talking about with regards to the uniqueness of the circuit. Or one of the things anyway.

Sorry, I did not mean to insinuate that gooping was bad, merely state the fact that the boards were indeed gooped (you're still shellshocked from that debate on DIY Stompboxes perhaps ;P) and therefore not very easy to rev-eng. Nor did I mean to intimate you did any of the diode measuring - merely that you know those guys from around online.

My point was that if someone (including pro companies of all sizes) did want to build a Klone, the circuit is, and has been for the last few years, completely known aside from those diodes which where hotly debated for a while. People besides Bill, claim them to be important, and though I understand that in the grand scheme of things that may have been overblown a tad by Bill, strategically as you say, they do make a significant difference (though they are not as all-important as the hype, sure).


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Absolutely no offense taken, whatsoever.

Gooping is by no means a foolproof strategy. My own point was that, when you have only ONE product, you tend to be a little more anxious about protecting it, even if the strategy you deploy isn't foolproof.

Having spoken with Bill at great length (though not for a number of years), I admire his integrity and pursuit of quality, even if I found him a little picky at times. I was, and remain, a little disappointed at the fervour with which folks were posting reverse-engineered schematics. When someone has a thriving business, and keeps cranking out new models every 3 months, I have few worries about protecting their IP, because they have other products to turn to. When Zachary Vex only had the Super Hard-On and Fuzz Factory under his belt, folks on the diystompbox forum were understandably protective of him and his IP, and he protected it with zeal. (I once had to talk him out of getting a guy fired from his job for using the employer's computer to post a Fuzz Factory schematic. True story.) But once Zach had a large catalog of products out, he became much less protective, knowing that simply having a lot of products, well-made, with distinctive artwork, compactly made, would provide a steady revenue stream.

I don't know what else Bill has for income, but his ONLY pedal is the Klon, so in fairness, I do what I can to protect him. I'm not going to lie or misdirect, but I'm not going to spill the beans....at least those I may have. Are the diodes critical? I have no idea. I can only say that the design is a house of cards, a patchwork quilt, and changing one little thing over here has implications for how something over there works. It was not arrived at by theory. It was arrived at by Bill asking the consulting engineer "Well could you insert a little more of _this_", and changes would get made, or the circuit augmented, until Bill was satisfied that his primary customers would also be satisfied. So, there is plausible reason to_ suspect_ that the diodes might be critical. I just don't know. If I still had the setup Bill graced me with 11 years ago, and the A/B comparison box I had to switch instantly between two Klons - one modded and one not - I might be able to confirm or disconfirm. But that boat has long sailed. Having said that, I was impressed with the pots, especially the dual-ganged ones. If I set the controls, so that the knobs pointed to the exact same spot on each Klon, they sounded identical. That's often hard to achieve with the small Alpha pots regularly found on commercial pedals, and even harder when they are dual-ganged. Tapers are merely a spec to _aim for_ and not always perfectly replicated from batch to batch. My own inclination would be to maybe place a little more emphasis on the matching of the two halves of the Gain control than on the nitpicky specs of the diodes. After all, as I indicated in an earlier post, the Gain control makes a number of things happen along two parallel paths, in a particular balance. And if the two halves of the Gain pot are not well matched, with respect to taper, that balance might not be achieved. In any event, folks should always remember that Bill only makes money from the units he himself sells directly. Any aftermarket profit from E-bay sellers is something that the Martin Shkrelis of the world do amongst themselves, and they keep Bill out of the loop. Unfortunately, and unfairly, he gets blamed for it.


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

Well, the lady who Bill makes them for just goy $2551.00 USD (($3295.29 CAD)
Pretty exciting auction, went up from $1776.00 in the last 2 minutes.
Good on her. Hope it makes her life a bit better.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2018)

Maybe it should be called the "Kon Centaur".


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## sh333 (Apr 6, 2006)

Chitmo said:


> I won't get into the debate of weather or not the Klon is a great pedal. We don't need a gear page incident here. But it's been well known for a while that Bill is a douchey prick. He claims he's helping out a friend that's a single mom or some BS but he's really just capitalizing on the hype and selling new pedals under pseudonyms. He admitted in a interview once that Klon number one is actually number 10. He made number serial number 2 thru 10 first to fill orders then went back later to make number 1 for himself.


I wonder have you ever actually met Bill? I have met him and have known him for years. He is certainly not what i would consider a douchey Prick, though I suppose some may argue that someone who judges a person having never met that person is perhaps the douchey prick in this case. He is an intelligent, well-read person who truly loves music and is fun to hang out with and converse with. He has his quirks as most all of us do to some extent. He likely has good days and bad days like most of us. His intent with the KLON was to build the consummate Overdrive pedal and many folks would agree that is exactly what he did. An enormous amount of folks use them to create music which seems what he really wanted in the first place. BTW, I can confirm that the "helping out" aspect of the Centaur auction that was referenced here is not BS and has nothing to do with hype etc. Good on Bill for giving a @#$% about another human being.

I have been lucky enough through my business to have been able to check out an in-numerous amount of klones and homages for lack of a better word and alot of them are really good pedals in their own right, but none of them sound like a KLON exactly. As alluded to elsewhere in this thread, the diodes are a major reason for this. If you do not have the correct diodes, then the clipping will not be the same. It may be very, very close, but it will not be the same exactly. Unless you are running the pedal with the Gain completely counter clockwise then at least some portion of the the sound is clipped. Some people can hear a difference others cannot. If you can't hear a difference, then use whatever. Enough pro and semi-pro guys we deal with here can hear and feel the difference that I trust my ears despite my bias of knowing Bill personally, selling his pedal line here etc.

We sell a literal tonne of great pedals here, but the Klon is one pedal that we sell that I can recommend to 99.9% of players. Not many pedals out there that have such a wide a range of appeal or usefulness. I get that the Centaur pricing is out of this world, but the KTR is pretty reasonably priced and sounds the same. We have had trouble keeping the KTR in stock lately, but they are typically readily available.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

sh333 said:


> I wonder have you ever actually met Bill? I have met him and have known him for years. He is certainly not what i would consider a douchey Prick, though I suppose some may argue that someone who judges a person having never met that person is perhaps the douchey prick in this case. He is an intelligent, well-read person who truly loves music and is fun to hang out with and converse with. He has his quirks as most all of us do to some extent. He likely has good days and bad days like most of us. His intent with the KLON was to build the consummate Overdrive pedal and many folks would agree that is exactly what he did. An enormous amount of folks use them to create music which seems what he really wanted in the first place. BTW, I can confirm that the "helping out" aspect of the Centaur auction that was referenced here is not BS and has nothing to do with hype etc. Good on Bill for giving a @#$% about another human being.
> 
> I have been lucky enough through my business to have been able to check out an in-numerous amount of klones and homages for lack of a better word and alot of them are really good pedals in their own right, but none of them sound like a KLON exactly. As alluded to elsewhere in this thread, the diodes are a major reason for this. If you do not have the correct diodes, then the clipping will not be the same. It may be very, very close, but it will not be the same exactly. Unless you are running the pedal with the Gain completely counter clockwise then at least some portion of the the sound is clipped. Some people can hear a difference others cannot. If you can't hear a difference, then use whatever. Enough pro and semi-pro guys we deal with here can hear and feel the difference that I trust my ears despite my bias of knowing Bill personally, selling his pedal line here etc.
> 
> We sell a literal tonne of great pedals here, but the Klon is one pedal that we sell that I can recommend to 99.9% of players. Not many pedals out there that have such a wide a range of appeal or usefulness. I get that the Centaur pricing is out of this world, but the KTR is pretty reasonably priced and sounds the same. We have had trouble keeping the KTR in stock lately, but they are typically readily available.


So are you promoting your business or defending a buddy? I have a KTR and owned a Klon and numerous klones. I think it's a great pedal... taking advantage of the hype and producing more of an "out of production" pedal is a dick move no matter how you spin it.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

What, no it's not and that's not what he's doing anyway. You don't get to be indignant about the auction price THAT IS NOT A BIN BUT ACTUAL PEOPLE WILLING TO PAY THAT MUCH (starting bid was 450; pretty damn reasonable considering what they actuially sell for or even the NIB KTR price). Be mad at the collectors driving up the price.

Sorry you can't afford this one now (neither can I, but I've built myself a rather good Klone if I do say so myself, so I actually don't care), but you don't get to be all butthurt about it, and you certainly don't get to slander a person's character due to those bullshit feelings. Anyone who don't do what you want is a dick? The FACT (see @mHammers posts above) that Bill helped the DIY community reverse engineer the Centaur is proof to the contrary of what you are saying. If you want one you can make one or buy a knockoff (of a quality level you can afford), but if you want a real silver pony (or non) then, since so do a thousand other people, many of whom have more budget for it than you do, too effin bad. There's nothing unfair about that AND (because apparently you aren't reading the entire thread) he's not even doing it for his own profit.

You're just digging a deeper hole here, stop it.


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## sh333 (Apr 6, 2006)

Chitmo said:


> So are you promoting your business or defending a buddy? I have a KTR and owned a Klon and numerous klones. I think it's a great pedal... taking advantage of the hype and producing more of an "out of production" pedal is a dick move no matter how you spin it.


Not really sure how i might be promoting my business, but if a moderator feels i am somehow doing that, they can edit or delete my comments as necessary.

I suppose i am defending a buddy given that I know the guy and feel that your comments are baseless given your limited knowledge of the guy's character. The selling of these centaur pedals is completely above board to my knowledge. The details are clearly laid out in the Ebay listing.

A quick scan of any other guitar gear forum, indicates that you are by no means along in your vitriol towards this guy, but I really do not get it myself. Life is def. way too short.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

Granny Gremlin said:


> What, no it's not and that's not what he's doing anyway. You don't get to be indignant about the auction price THAT IS NOT A BIN BUT ACTUAL PEOPLE WILLING TO PAY THAT MUCH (starting bid was 450; pretty damn reasonable considering what they actuially sell for or even the NIB KTR price). Be mad at the collectors driving up the price.
> 
> Sorry you can't afford this one now (neither can I, but I've built myself a rather good Klone if I do say so myself, so I actually don't care), but you don't get to be all butthurt about it, and you certainly don't get to slander a person's character due to those bullshit feelings. Anyone who don't do what you want is a dick? The FACT (see @mHammers posts above) that Bill helped the DIY community reverse engineer the Centaur is proof to the contrary of what you are saying. If you want one you can make one or buy a knockoff (of a quality level you can afford), but if you want a real silver pony (or non) then, since so do a thousand other people, many of whom have more budget for it than you do, too effin bad. There's nothing unfair about that AND (because apparently you aren't reading the entire thread) he's not even doing it for his own profit.
> 
> You're just digging a deeper hole here, stop it.


Spin it however you want... if he's still got parts and producing them, have a bit of integrity and stop perpetuating the madness. You don't see analogman raising prices on the KoT or putting them on eBay to take advantage of the hype. And my statement has zero to do with the price, and more to do with the integrity of the maker. As I said in a previous post, I have owned a Klon in the past. Great pedal, but having 2k tired up in something I can't repair if it fails is a feeling I wasn't comfortable with. In any case I've said my piece and I'm entitled to my opinion just as much as you are to yours. If you don't like it I would recommend having a beer and not losing sleep over it. In the end it doesn't change anyone's life.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2018)

Granny Gremlin said:


> The FACT (see @mHammers posts above) that Bill helped the DIY community reverse engineer the Centaur is proof to the contrary of what you are saying.


I don't think Mark said he helped the DIYers clone it. I think Mark was helping him design it or the KTR. Plus Mark has never told anyone what he knows about it. So that never helped the kloners.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Everyone's read the inscription right?

Right?


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Player99 said:


> I don't think Mark said he helped the DIYers clone it. I think Mark was helping him design it or the KTR. Plus Mark has never told anyone what he knows about it. So that never helped the kloners.


Supplying an ungooped board to the Internet diy community is a huge help.

@Chitmo, way to project; you the one spinning. The parts are all standard shit you can buy anywhere except the diodes and enclosure. He probably has some of those left over ( enclosures). And that's fair for repairs etc. Or just leftovers when prod stopped/ moved to KTR. Hell, it could even be one off repro ( custom made back in the day, called the guy and said break out the mold). The diodes can likely still be bought NOS ( like I did, I'm not 
sure the D9Es I use are the right part, but they look the same so they probably are Soviet geraniums of some kind).

Just stop trying so hard to hate a person. That's litterally the problem with the world


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Supplying an ungooped board to the Internet diy community is a huge help.
> 
> @Chitmo, way to project; you the one spinning. The parts are all standard shit you can buy anywhere except the diodes and enclosure. He probably has some of those left over ( enclosures). And that's fair for repairs etc. Or just leftovers when prod stopped/ moved to KTR. Hell, it could even be one off repro ( custom made back in the day, called the guy and said break out the mold). The diodes can likely still be bought NOS ( like I did, I'm not
> sure the D9Es I use are the right part, but they look the same so they probably are Soviet geraniums of some kind).
> ...


Like I said..... opinions. I'm gonna bow out on this one. Nothing any of you say will change my opinion on this. Can't like everyone right!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I feel like some people missed my post.


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

Budda said:


> I feel like some people missed my post.


I saw Budda, “insert Public Enemy’s”Don’t Belive the Hype!” just, I thought originally how awesome is that Bill is doing something nice for someone else.
That’s why I posted in the first place, not to open a can’o’worms.
Ahh well, peace.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Player99 said:


> I don't think Mark said he helped the DIYers clone it. I think Mark was helping him design it or the KTR. Plus Mark has never told anyone what he knows about it. So that never helped the kloners.


Partly correct. Bill was responding to a request from some preferred customers (who he never specified to me) for a possible change to the basic design (really just a slight augmentation of what it already did; not a major change in design or attempt to fix some perceived weakness) and asked me if I could accomplish it. I did receive two ungooped boards to work with, and sent them back to Bill in their original condition, along with the documentation he sent me. I have not tipped my hand to anyone in the DIY community, other than to clarify some of the more general design aspects that people may have misunderstood or miscommunicated to the broader audience. I suspect the gang at freestompboxes - some of whom seem to have a fanatical belief that _everything_ should be free, and no IP should be safe or protected - pooled some money, bought one, degooped it and reverse engineered it. Not having the schematic that Bill had sent me, I'm in no position to confirm or deny the reverse-engineered schematics. It was, after all, over 10 years ago.

Has Bill "helped" the DIY community in some fashion? I have absolutely no idea, since I haven't followed his saga. I was pleased when I saw hints that he had modified his business model a bit, by partnering with KTR. He was a bit stubborn/sticky about some things, and I think they provided obstacles to his production, which in turn instigated the ridiculous aftermarket resale prices. As I think I've noted before, what he asked me to do required that I use the existing board layout and not change or add anything to the layout. While there were certainly PCB production facilities in the mid-1990's, there weren't as many as there are now, with as quick a turnaround time and low prices, or with easy-to-use custom software for generating layouts. So he would use up his supply of boards before ordering a new batch, using the same layout. The enclosures were quite costly too. Twenty-five years ago, they were unique and proprietary, just as Roger Mayer's "spaceship" enclosures were. You could know by the enclosure alone that you had bought "the real thing", because only Bill had them. These days, though, it seems you can get copies made of anything you want.

I saw an ad on Kijiji today for something professing to be a clone of a Klon Centaur. The enclosure is fairly small, which suggests to me that the pots are going to be cheap 16mm stype and the dual-ganged gain pot likely not well matched. You can't fit three of these pots across in a 1590B (MXR-sized) enclosure.


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

Well, there’s one here local in Calgary if anyone wants it.
https://www.kijiji.ca/v-amp-pedal/calgary/klon-centaur-overdrive-pedal/1346492741


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## Louis (Apr 26, 2008)

Robert1950 said:


> What. It will only cost an arm, a leg and two testicles.


I have three !


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Um, if I may ask a rather delicate question: three Klon Centaur pedals, or three testicles?


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

mhammer said:


> Um, if I may ask a rather delicate question: three Klon Centaur pedals, or three testicles?


I'm glad you asked it; we were all thinking it.


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## DrumBob (Aug 17, 2014)

My J. Rockett Archer is the closest thing to a Klon I ever heard and I'm totally happy with it. I also have a Keeley Red Dirt on my pedalboard and a Mojo Hand Superlative, and occasionally stack all three together. The sound is amazing when everything is dialed in right, especially with some compression.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

There is not a pedal in the universe worth 2 grand or more. I have blown a ton of money over the years on gear and I mean a ton of money. But there are limits to my insanity


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The thing is that the pedal itself has no particularly inspiring or idiosyncratic "sound". It is designed and intended for making a good tube amp grind in a pleasing way. That was the value of Bill's traditional 30-minute chat. If he felt your rig would not benefit from use of his pedal, he'd steer you away from buying it.

One wonders if the person willing to spring $2k on a pedal has any money left over to spend on an amp that can be driven into aural beauty, a guitar that deserves it, or the good sense required to be able to identify those things.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

mhammer said:


> One wonders if the person willing to spring $2k on a pedal has any money left over to spend on an amp that can be driven into aural beauty, a guitar that deserves it, or the good sense required to be able to identify those things.


this seems like an odd statement


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## mrfiftyfour (Jun 29, 2008)

I thought it was brilliant!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

vadsy said:


> this seems like an odd statement


Odd in what way? I'm not sure what you mean.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

mhammer said:


> Odd in what way? I'm not sure what you mean.


it just seems like passing judgement in a negative way towards people buying expensive pedals. the way I see it is those folks most likely would have multiple amps capable of 'aural beauty' along with guitars and whatever, the a $2k Klon is just the next step for them. although 'good sense required' could always be up for debate


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

As I've noted here many times since 2007, the foolish prices commanded on E-bay are a result of the constellation of public impatience, internet hype, and Bill's complicated business practices. Had Bill opted for a different business model, the price would have remained at $349 MSRP, or even less. But his insistence on making sure the product was high quality, making smaller batches himself, and assuring via phone conversation that the user was buying something that would truely add value to their rig, resulted in production backlogs and wait times of several months. The wait times, coupled wih internet hype (and Bill rarely ran ads), prompted owners to sell theirs at a substantial profit to those who felt they couldn't wait. And, as we see here with great regularity, there are a LOT of fickle owners/players out there, who fall in and out oflove with a $400-500 pedal and sell it a few months later. I would imagine that a large segment of those attempting to turn over their Klon for big bucks are NOT the original owner who bought from Bill, but are people who paid more than retail, fell in and out of love with it, and figured they could turn it over for a profit.

I'm not passing judgment on those willing to spend $1500 or more on a Kemper or similarly-priced piece of high-end gear And one of these days, should I grow weary of it and need the money, someone is going to pay me a ridiculous sum for my original '59 Bassman (and MUCH more than it originally sold for, even taking inflation into account). So I understand that people can be entirely justified in their desire to score pricey pieces of gear, sometimes rare or unique, that they feel are needed to produce the sound they want. But when that desire seems to be primarily motivated by impatience, I get a little judgmental.


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