# Tabs, Tablature, and RC Cola



## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

I'd like to start this discussion with as little preamble as possible. I won't even include a specific question. This is open for discussion in whatever way you see fit to view tabs, learn from them, love to hate them, hate to love them, rely on them, depend on them, use your ears instead of them, or with them, whatever.....BTW, this guys a pretty good guitarist, don't let his humor style fool you...


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

I used them a lot when I first started playing. Rarely use them now except for figuring out specific riffs or trademark pieces of solos. They have their uses for sure.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I use them a fair bit to save time. 

I actually use Tab Pro which is an amazing tool for learning music. It scrolls the tab for you while playing the notes and can be slowed down, etc. I can learn a song by ear, but why would you want to? Unless you're training your ears for a competition that doesn't exist.


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## Guest (Aug 16, 2016)

I used to use tabs.
Now it's youtube, 'how to play (*song*) on guitar'.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I used to use tabs when I started learning. That's about all there was available. Now I VERY occasionally use them if I'm having a hard time figuring out a passage or trying to figure out a chord beneath a lead line. I find them extremely difficult to use. After about 5 minutes looking at the page it just starts to become white noise.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

adcandour said:


> I use them a fair bit to save time.
> 
> I actually use Tab Pro which is an amazing tool for learning music. It scrolls the tab for you while playing the notes and can be slowed down, etc. I can learn a song by ear, but why would you want to? Unless you're training your ears for a competition that doesn't exist.


It's more than training your ears. I view it as a complete workout whereby brain-hands-inner clock are put through the ringer. Working on phrasing and other nuances are also picked up when you are trying to learn by ear. The time keeping or inner clock is one of the most important aspects to develop as a player imo. This is where my biggest challenge lies and I feel my inner clock progresses when i'm repeating lines over and over as I try to figure out a lick by ear. I use the Amazing Slow Downer software which is a huge help in slowing down passages and learning by ear. I do use tab or youtube if I can't figure out a lick. My youngest son showed me Tab Pro a couple days ago and it looks like a cool tool. YMMV.


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

The problem with tabs found online is that they are rarely accurate. If they'd be good, I'd use them. I generally end up rewriting them. So yeah.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

Jamdog said:


> The problem with tabs found online is that they are rarely accurate. If they'd be good, I'd use them. I generally end up rewriting them. So yeah.


Even sheet music and books have many mistakes, one would expect publishing companies to do a little better job of proof reading before putting the material out to the public.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

I used to exclusively use sheet music or tab to learn songs. However, that has led to years of very sterile playing when I improvise or write original melodies and lead lines. So, these days I really try to do it by ear. If I can't seem to get it by ear, I'll break out the tab to get an idea of what it is like, then go back to learning by ear.



fredyfreeloader said:


> Even sheet music and books have many mistakes, one would expect publishing companies to do a little better job of proof reading before putting the material out to the public.


Years working at a sheet music store revealed a lot of things. Namely that "official" sheet music is no more official than random tabs found on the internet. They are often better than the average online tab because the music is transcribed by a professional musician, but they still have mistakes. Occasionally not necessarily notational mistakes, but positional mistakes. As in, saying to play something near the 7th fret of one string, when it was originally played 5 frets up on the next string. Same notes, different positions.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Tablature is just one of many tools. 

For written music I personally like a combination of standard notation and tab, assuming they're correct, leaning towards standard notation but once in a while considering the tab's idea of preferred note location as there are usually several choices. If it's something I'm going to learn well or memorize then I generally dispose of the tab...there's usually more information in the standard notation anyway, and yes, even which string can be included though generally isn't.

I have to work a lot with musicians who aren't fretted instrument players so being able to communicate in standard notation is important. Also important is the ability to articulate musical concepts in layman's terms for those who don't read at all.

None of this negates the importance of ears. One needs to learn to hear rising and falling pitch, equal pitches, different kinds of chords and intervals, in order to identify what's happening in the music.

I've mentioned this book here before, but it bears repeating:

https://www.amazon.ca/Music-Brain-Ecstasy-Captures-Imagination/dp/038078209X


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

By the end of high school, after four years of music (alto sax), reading standard notation was a breeze (mostly) for me. Now, I couldn't tell an E from a D#. When it comes to Tab, I use it only when I can't figure it out by watching (YouTube) or listening.


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## Jim9guitars (Feb 15, 2016)

I subscribed to Steve Terreberrys youtube channel a while ago, he is a very talented player, and is pretty funny most of the time.(see his "black metal" primer). I have used tab and notation both a lot over the years, tab came in handy for teaching especially. In recent years I have been using various versions of GuitarPro and Powertab Editor to assist me in composing multi instrument music. Being able to play back what I wrote, even with just MIDI sound is great for what I'm doing these days. I was playing in cover bands in the 70's and 80's, before tab was widely used and the internet was still on the drawing board so I got pretty good at playing by ear but my playing and writing improved when I studied theory and got my sight reading skills in shape. Just having a good grasp on the theory involving time helped a lot when working with other musicians.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

laristotle said:


> I used to use tabs.
> Now it's youtube, 'how to play (*song*) on guitar'.


I do that as well. I prefer with the ones with tab - like this one:


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Jamdog said:


> The problem with tabs found online is that they are rarely accurate. If they'd be good, I'd use them. I generally end up rewriting them. So yeah.


Tab pro has a rating system by users, so the ones with the most reviews and highest stars are usually very accurate. Still, you need to know the song to help speed things along.


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

adcandour said:


> I do that as well. I prefer with the ones with tab - like this one:


Me too. 

Sometimes they are like "you play this, then that, then this, then that" without properly showing anything, pretending we already know it... 

There are some also with three points of view at once, that explain very well.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I, ummm...................hate tabs. Don't use them, won't use them. Many have found them to be very wrong.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> I, ummm...................hate tabs. Don't use them, won't use them. Many have found them to be very wrong.


maybe you're just playing them wrong


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

adcandour said:


> I do that as well. I prefer with the ones with tab - like this one:


I come from a time before tab was invented, so I only read notes.  1 question, does the 7b in the above tab stand for 7th fret & bend?


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Alex said:


> It's more than training your ears. I view it as a complete workout whereby brain-hands-inner clock are put through the ringer. Working on phrasing and other nuances are also picked up when you are trying to learn by ear. The time keeping or inner clock is one of the most important aspects to develop as a player imo. This is where my biggest challenge lies and I feel my inner clock progresses when i'm repeating lines over and over as I try to figure out a lick by ear. I use the Amazing Slow Downer software which is a huge help in slowing down passages and learning by ear. I do use tab or youtube if I can't figure out a lick. My youngest son showed me Tab Pro a couple days ago and it looks like a cool tool. YMMV.


I


Lincoln said:


> I come from a time before tab was invented, so I only read notes.  1 question, does the 7b in the above tab stand for 7th fret & bend?


I grew up with tab (the big album books).

yes, those are bends. There's a few different ways that they are written.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> I, ummm...................hate tabs. Don't use them, won't use them. Many have found them to be very wrong.


If you need them to be right in order to understand what the song is doing, I think it's a problem. You have to listen to the song at the same time.

As mentioned, the ones I use are pretty accurate, and if you're hearing something different, then you need to make the changes yourself (which aren't that dramatic).

It's just so much quicker


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

jbealsmusic said:


> I used to exclusively use sheet music or tab to learn songs. However, that has led to years of very sterile playing when I improvise or write original melodies and lead lines. So, these days I really try to do it by ear. If I can't seem to get it by ear, I'll break out the tab to get an idea of what it is like, then go back to learning by ear.
> 
> Years working at a sheet music store revealed a lot of things. Namely that "official" sheet music is no more official than random tabs found on the internet. They are often better than the average online tab because the music is transcribed by a professional musician, but they still have mistakes. Occasionally not necessarily notational mistakes, but positional mistakes. As in, saying to play something near the 7th fret of one string, when it was originally played 5 frets up on the next string. Same notes, different positions.


I was about to write about this particular thing that is one of the things that bugs me about tabs in general. It may be a combination of the transcribers style on guitar, the tab reader's own particular style, or many other things. People, including myself many times, miss some of the subtle variances in tonality when listening to a recorded song and writing the transcription, which is very positional related IMO. I'm finding many of the tabs pieced together lick by lick, which ends up as a bunch of unnecessary positional changes that lack the depth or tone of the original. It's sometimes difficult to get the tab that is done the way we think it should be done. And I'm sure the person writing the tab feels the same way. After all, it is their work (the tab) at the end.

I won't even go into more aspects like certain feels that need to be established by listening to the original. For clarity on that statement, a very subtle swing feel in a blues lick as an example. Not to mention the varying rhythm and note durations typically found in written music, but rarely in much of the tabs I've seen.

Tab is a good useful tool up to a point. Then some basis for music theory usually has to be applied to get the song down correctly. But I realize that many have not had music training like others have had, so there's that to consider as well.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Lincoln said:


> I come from a time before tab was invented, so I only read notes.  1 question, does the 7b in the above tab stand for 7th fret & bend?


You must be very old, tab has been around for centuries.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Mooh said:


> You must be very old, tab has been around for centuries.


Man....Dave is like reeeeeeeallllllly reeeeeally old. I believe he's possibly the missing link.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

adcandour said:


> yes, those are bends. There's a few different ways that they are written.


They should use # instead of b. I was trying to figure out how I could make a note on the 7th fret go flat. I can't do it. Does anybody writing tabs go as far as using 7b1 for a 1/2 step sharp or 7b2 for a full step??

Looks like I need to make an effort to learn some tab if I hope to survive in today's world.

I stuck my head out of the cave to have a look around and everybody is writing music in tab all of a sudden.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I use tab pro, but with these videos you have to listen to what they're doing too.
@Lincoln 
Here are a couple.of pics from the software I generally use:

You pic the best reviewed:










And then listen/read


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## dolphinstreet (Sep 11, 2006)

I encourage my students to spend more developing their ear rather than study tab. I think tab is great for studying something that is really fast or complicated rhythmically. However, when learning chords, scales, melodies, etc, it is much better to take the time to learn how to transcribe (copy) by listening. In the long run, this always wins. Good musicians are able to hear these things instantly, and it's not because of some incredible talent. It's because they spent time developing it. To me, if you compare the value of reading tab vs "having a good ear", the ratio is about 5 for tab and 95 for ear. It's really not difficult, it just takes a lot of time to develop it. That's why I think people give up and look for the tab - they want instant answers (which mirrors the mentality of the society we live in - pardon my slightly pessimistic world view). They good news is - you CAN develop such an "ear ability"!


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

@dolphinstreet, how do your students write the music when they transcribe song by ear?


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## Jim9guitars (Feb 15, 2016)

To expand on dolphinstreet 's comments above, I found that students that relied too much on tab could never reach the point where they could play whatever they were working on without the tab in front of them. Learning by ear forces you to remember everything, allowing you to just play it. Having already admitted that I am old too, I learned by ear because there was no other way available to me, one reason being economics. When a radio is all you have you learn to get as much from each listen as you can and you really commit it to memory.


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## dolphinstreet (Sep 11, 2006)

Jamdog said:


> @dolphinstreet, how do your students write the music when they transcribe song by ear?


I don't think they write music. However, when I write music, I do by ear. I sit with guitar in hand, try chord progressions, grooves, melodies, etc. I record them as snippets on the computer. Reading it is completely irrelevant at that point. That can be done later, if need be.

I've played guitar in bands for over 30 years. When you are playing a lot of songs regularly, you learn that there are so many common progressions and cadences, etc - things you learn in one song, which you will reuse in a different song. It might be a different key, tempo, etc, but the function of some chords may very well be something you already learned.

Instead of reading tab to play a song, it's much better to understand music. Get a book about theory, and read it slowly. Look for videos on youtube too. Learn how scales and chords are created, and practice this theory on the guitar. For example, transposition. You learn that a common cadence (small chord progression, or turnaround) might be G | E7 | A7 | D7. So, you practice this is a different key. For example, C | A7 | D7 | G7. It's the exact same chord progression. Now you are learning that from the I chord, we can go down 1.5 whole steps and play a Dom7 chord, then from there, we do the circle of 4ths to the next Dom7 chord, and then one more time. Then we are back to the I chord. This is just one example. No tab is needed - this is an example of music theory in practice. If you work on something like this long enough, you can instantly play it, not from memorizing the chords, but the *function* of these 4 chords together. You will never forget it. You can choose whatever version of a Dominant 7 chord you like - it's not important. The tab will never explain how and why a cadence like this works the way it does, but some basic music theory will. So, when someone in the band says, let's move this song to key of Bb instead. Well, you know how to find those 4 chords without having to rely on any tab! Bingo!

Remember this - playing from memory always trumps playing from sheet music or tab. If you have to read it while you play, you don't really know the music. I'm talking about more experienced players here - beginners might need a bit more help, but the sooner you throw away the tab or notation, the better you will become as a player.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Great response there Robert. I just saw that you're in Camrose here in AB. You take appointments?


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

Lincoln said:


> I come from a time before tab was invented, so I only read notes.


Guitar books have been published using tab since 1551. Are you immortal?


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

The whole point that I am trying to make and that @dolphinstreet is completely missing is that playing by ear and reading tabs is not exclusively opposite. 

One can read tabs and learn by ear. 

I am looking at my kids learn guitar, and I can say tabs is way more natural than learning by ear, particularly when the dexterity isn't yet there. 

But learning to discernate what's in the song is still present.... After many months of learning.

Of course, the idea is always to know the song, and not to read it everytime, but to get to know it or to note it down, tabs is as good a tool as you can get. 

I would stay away from a teacher that does not want to use any sheet music or tabs. And I am a paying customer.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

kat_ said:


> Guitar books have been published using tab since 1551. Are you immortal?


probably not immortal, no. Just never saw any tab around until the internet happened, and I cruised my fair share of music stores over the years. Even worked in a music store back in the 70's. If tab was out there, I didn't notice it.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Lincoln said:


> They should use # instead of b. I was trying to figure out how I could make a note on the 7th fret go flat. I can't do it. Does anybody writing tabs go as far as using 7b1 for a 1/2 step sharp or 7b2 for a full step??
> 
> Looks like I need to make an effort to learn some tab if I hope to survive in today's world.
> 
> I stuck my head out of the cave to have a look around and everybody is writing music in tab all of a sudden.


Often you'd see 7b9 or 7^10 to indicate which note youre bending to. 7s10 would indicate a slide. 2h3 would be a hammer on. 9p7 is a pulloff.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

To me reading tab vs reading standard notation is like reading a different language. I'm not a very numbers oriented type of person so something like 5h7s10^12 is very foreign to both my past experience with music reading and the way I think. Some people can do that fine, not so much for me. Just comes down to using what I'm comfortable with. If you're comfortable with tabs, good on you. Only issue with that is if you're in a situation where someone drops a chord chard in front of you or give you a certain progression in a key you may play it in and somebody like a singer wants to change the key. That tab you have in front of you ain't helping then IMO. Instantly transcribing music both by ear and on staff paper or a chord chart is a necessary evil in much of the music business. It isn't easy though. As tab isn't for someone who isn't used to it or accepting of it. It still all comes down to using your ears in the end though. I don't think sound travels through your eyes, unless maybe there are Shrooms or LSD involved. Haha.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Dorian2 said:


> To me reading tab vs reading standard notation is like reading a different language. I'm not a very numbers oriented type of person so something like 5h7s10^12 is very foreign to both my past experience with music reading and the way I think. Some people can do that fine, not so much for me. Just comes down to using what I'm comfortable with. If you're comfortable with tabs, good on you. Only issue with that is if you're in a situation where someone drops a chord chard in front of you or give you a certain progression in a key you may play it in and somebody like a singer wants to change the key. That tab you have in front of you ain't helping then IMO. Instantly transcribing music both by ear and on staff paper or a chord chart is a necessary evil in much of the music business. It isn't easy though. As tab isn't for someone who isn't used to it or accepting of it. It still all comes down to using your ears in the end though. I don't think sound travels through your eyes, unless maybe there are Shrooms or LSD involved. Haha.


Give me 45 minutes and I'll let you know.


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## dolphinstreet (Sep 11, 2006)

No, I am not completely missing your point. In fact, using tab and learning by ear is a good combination. Tab can be helpful in many ways; for instance figuring out certain patterns on the fretboard, learning a new scale, and so on. However, using ONLY tab for learning is not the best way to learn long term.

I provide notation and tab for all my lessons, by the way. If someone wants tab, it's there for them. When I do in-person lessons, I put a lot of emphasis on ear training and jamming, and really learning how to *play* music. That's the ultimate goal here, to play music, not to read music.

I am saying these things as someone who has played for over 35 years, and played with tons of bands for over 30 years. So it's not so much my stubborn opinion, but my experience and lessons learned over the years. Those who aspire to be a good gigging musician will need to learn by ear to a great extent. Tab can help along the way, or to speed up things here and there, sure, but if you can't hear and follow what others are doing in the band, you're in trouble.

Finally, I would like to say that there are other scenarios of course. For example, those who enjoy playing along with tab in their room with no intention to play with others, tab can be really great.

Hope this doesn't offend anyone, but feel free to disagree. I know the value of what I learned for over half my life. 



Jamdog said:


> The whole point that I am trying to make and that @dolphinstreet is completely missing is that playing by ear and reading tabs is not exclusively opposite.
> 
> One can read tabs and learn by ear.
> 
> ...


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## dolphinstreet (Sep 11, 2006)

Dorian2 said:


> Great response there Robert. I just saw that you're in Camrose here in AB. You take appointments?


Yes, I do lessons in my home in Camrose if you wanted to come down some time.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

I'll PM you in a while.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

adcandour said:


> If you need them to be right in order to understand what the song is doing, I think it's a problem. You have to listen to the song at the same time.
> 
> As mentioned, the ones I use are pretty accurate, and if you're hearing something different, then you need to make the changes yourself (which aren't that dramatic).
> 
> It's just so much quicker


When you can read music, tabs are anything but quicker. Pretty accurate is not accurate and tabs put up by others just can't be trusted. 

However, if you like tabs, then stick with it. I don't and that's why I wrote what I did. I also understand that our brains work differently and some may pick up music notation very quickly while others do not and vise versa with tabs. But tabs do leave out a lot of information. It is just a better system. Once you know how to read music and can play pretty decently, hand that person a musical score and he can play just about anything.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Jim9guitars said:


> To expand on dolphinstreet 's comments above, I found that students that relied too much on tab could never reach the point where they could play whatever they were working on without the tab in front of them.* Learning by ear forces you to remember everything, allowing you to just play it.* Having already admitted that I am old too, I learned by ear because there was no other way available to me, one reason being economics. When a radio is all you have you learn to get as much from each listen as you can and you really commit it to memory.


I am slow learning things by ear but I think that is because I am not that great a player. I have learned enough though, that I think you are right about remembering better when you learn by ear. The things I do learn that way are remembered better by me. Perhaps a combination of ear and musical notation works the best to get it in your head and get it right.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> When you can read music, tabs are anything but quicker. Pretty accurate is not accurate and tabs put up by others just can't be trusted.
> 
> However, if you like tabs, then stick with it. I don't and that's why I wrote what I did. I also understand that our brains work differently and some may pick up music notation very quickly while others do not and vise versa with tabs. But tabs do leave out a lot of information. It is just a better system. Once you know how to read music and can play pretty decently, hand that person a musical score and he can play just about anything.


Up to that point, we were talking primarily tab versus learning by ear.

I don't think anyone is disputing that reading music is faster.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

adcandour said:


> Up to that point, we were talking primarily tab versus learning by ear.
> 
> I don't think anyone is disputing that reading music is faster.


Oops. Thanks. That's what happens when I don't pay enough attention to the thread.


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2016)

laristotle said:


> Now it's youtube, 'how to play (*song*) on guitar'.


I'm currently learning this for an upcoming jam.
Tabs on youtube (rocksmith).
Go figure.


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

Tablature, helping dummies like me since 1300. 

I had no idea it was that old.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

fretzel said:


> Tablature, helping dummies like me since 1300.
> 
> I had no idea it was that old.


Neither did I. That's crazy.


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## brohymn2 (Dec 21, 2015)

I use tabs but some I'm pretty sure are made by 12 year Olds 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I look at it this way. In times when literacy was uncommon, people still knew two things fairly well, small number commerce and maps. Neither needed to be complicated, though they could be, they just needed to get them through trades of chickens for labour, or how to get from here to there. Some resourcefulness could make these concepts apply more widely in all the trades and crafts. If people could design and play instruments, communicate using language and knew it could be written, they could certainly figure out a way to make a visual representation of what they heard. Instinctively we might start with the instrument at hand.


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## Percy (Feb 18, 2013)

It is called TAB not TABS.....


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

Percy said:


> It is called TAB not TABS.....


How did you know he was talking about tab in the first place?


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Percy said:


> It is called TAB not TABS.....


I thought TAB was a drink. Never did get into TAB. Tried Jolt a couple of times. Soft drinks are just too sweet for me.


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## Percy (Feb 18, 2013)

Jamdog said:


> How did you know he was talking about tab in the first place?



Good point but Imo it should be called tablature unless more than one song is specified or a part two of a something.


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

Percy said:


> Good point but Imo it should be called tablature unless more than one song is specified or a part two of a something.


When talking about tablatures in general, I must assume more than one song is implied. 

Therefore by your logic, it's TABS and not TAB.


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## Percy (Feb 18, 2013)

Jamdog said:


> When talking about tablatures in general, I must assume more than one song is implied.
> 
> Therefore by your logic, it's TABS and not TAB.


I know it is odd to hear imo Tabs...''.I want the Tab for that song'' or'' I want the Tab for those songs''

But as a Title yes maybe it is good...Thanks for that Jamdog

Edit...lol ''I want those Tabs.....Duh.....


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

haha...I really have no response but to chuckle.

But I fixed the title for anyone concerned.


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