# The Problem With Noiseless Single Coils (In-line Humbuckers)



## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

I've probably made 100 pickups by now and experimented with a lot of different methods for eliminating hum while retaining single coil character. I made and posted pictures of in-line humbuckers a few times before, and it always generates discussion.






As with all noiseless single coils, the number one question I get is, "Does it sound like a single coil pickup?" In short, the answer is yes. At least, as well as a stacked coil or dummy coil does. This type of design has a distinct advantage over some others because only one coil is ever picking up the sound from the same string at any given time. So, in practice, it functions like a single coil and its tone is that of a single coil (just without the hum). The more important question is, why isn't this a common way to make noiseless single coils? It's because there is an obvious design flaw that people talk about on the internet, but no one ever seems to demonstrate.

In the video I call it a phase issue but "correct" that with overlayed text saying it's because the coils don't overlap in the center, creating a dead-spot between them. But, it isn't actually the coil's that are the problem. It's a dead spot in the magnetic field at the center that's the problem. You see, to be hum-cancelling, the two coils need to be RWRP. When you have two opposing polarities like that, there is a center point between them where the polarity is neutralized.

Passive pickups work by magnetizing the strings. The coil picks up the shifts in the magnetic field provided by the vibrating string. If you bend your string into the "neutral" area, your string is no longer magnetic at that spot and your signal drops or disappears entirely because the coils no longer "see" the string. Fascinating stuff!

One thing I don't touch on in the video is that there are fixes for this design flaw. You can use ferromagnetic bars across the tops/sides of the mangets to manipulate the magnetic field in a way that keeps the string magnetized across the center. Fender had a Split Coil pickup on the market for a while that did it, though it was a commercial flop because while it reduced the signal drop between the D and G, it didn't eliminate it completely. A lot of poor reviews regarding the tone and signal drop issues. Fralin does it too with their Split Blade design, apparently with greater success.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Does G&L's Z pickup take care of the 'dead spot'?


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

laristotle said:


> Does G&L's Z pickup take care of the 'dead spot'?
> View attachment 370515


Yes! This type of offset split coil (like a P-Bass, wide range humbucker, etc.) doesn't suffer from the same dead spot issue. The drawback of those is that you can't drop them into a standard strat pickguard/route.


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## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

Godin single-coil size humbucker pickup (bridge or neck) | Godin Guitars


Godin single coil size humbucker with twin blades, Neck or Bridge position for Godin Artisan series.



godinguitars.com





I've been transplanting some of these for years....great sounding stacked coils.
I've a/b'd these comparing standard stock strats......very similar and much quieter.
Sadly the current stock are only 8k or so.
I have some oldies with a series dcr of 18k.🌶


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## NashvilleDeluxe (Feb 7, 2018)

Very interesting! I’m no pickup expert, but being a repair workshop owner, I get to play a LOT of instruments. I have come to strongly dislike “noiseless” single coils, but could never put my finger on why. The one exception is a guitar I ended up buying that has a Fralin Big Single in it. My understanding is that it has a bar magnet, but is cleaner than a P90. It’s a fat single coil sound, much like a Lollar Special T in another of my Telecaster styles. What do you think is going on under the hood of the Big Single?








Demo:


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

loudtubeamps said:


> Godin single-coil size humbucker pickup (bridge or neck) | Godin Guitars
> 
> 
> Godin single coil size humbucker with twin blades, Neck or Bridge position for Godin Artisan series.
> ...


Those are just standard humbuckers crammed into a single coil size. Two small rail-style coils side by side. Not like the inline humbuckers we're talking about. Also not stacked coils. That's a different design.

I haven't heard the Godin ones, but I am a big fan of the Dimarzio ones. With 500K pots, the Cruisers are magic. For higher output, the Tone Zone S, Fast Track 2, and Super Distortion S were great! Sets of Dimarzio rails were my go-to in SSS guitars for a long time. They don't combine well with singles generally though because they really need 500K pots to shine.



> Sadly the current stock are only 8k or so.
> I have some oldies with a series dcr of 18k.🌶


Yeah, I love a hot/fat bridge pickup.

As a complete aside, and this has nothing to do with you (your post just reminded me of it), I long for the day when the terminology that gets used in our industry is representative of what people actually mean. DCR as the standard for pickup measurement/comparison really needs to be dropped. But, like Fender's Vibrato/Tremolo debacle, it remains because that measurent standard was set way back when, and the tradition carries on.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

loudtubeamps said:


> Godin single-coil size humbucker pickup (bridge or neck) | Godin Guitars
> 
> 
> Godin single coil size humbucker with twin blades, Neck or Bridge position for Godin Artisan series.
> ...


Thanks for the tip! I just ordered a set. I'm okay with 8k. I used to have an Artisan ST a while ago, so it'll be great to revisit these in a strat.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

IIRC, this is first time I have seen a "Weber" guitar.
ABOUT | weberinstruments

Not intending to derail your thread @jbealsmusic.


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## NashvilleDeluxe (Feb 7, 2018)

greco said:


> IIRC, this is first time I have seen a "Weber" guitar.
> ABOUT | weberinstruments
> 
> Not intending to derail your thread @jbealsmusic.
> ...


Joel is a local builder making some fine-ass instruments. His designs and hand-made philosophy are a total departure from so many luthiers. He’s also a great guy and makes a living just crafting guitars, I already have 5 Tele style guitars, but had to have this one.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

jbealsmusic said:


> DCR as the standard for pickup measurement/comparison really needs to be dropped.


I agree with your statement. IMO, there are more critical parameters that determine the performance of a PU, ones that affect the dynamics such as inductance and capacitance...I find it difficult obtaining the full technical specs on a pick-up, mainly rely on what they advertise which may not be entirely true.


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## Doug B (Jun 19, 2017)

loudtubeamps said:


> Godin single-coil size humbucker pickup (bridge or neck) | Godin Guitars
> 
> 
> Godin single coil size humbucker with twin blades, Neck or Bridge position for Godin Artisan series.
> ...


Those Godin pickups look a lot like Bill Lawrence L-45s twin blade pickups-right down to the appearance of the molded plastic.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

NashvilleDeluxe said:


> Very interesting! I’m no pickup expert, but being a repair workshop owner, I get to play a LOT of instruments. I have come to strongly dislike “noiseless” single coils, but could never put my finger on why. The one exception is a guitar I ended up buying that has a Fralin Big Single in it. My understanding is that it has a bar magnet, but is cleaner than a P90. It’s a fat single coil sound, much like a Lollar Special T in another of my Telecaster styles. What do you think is going on under the hood of the Big Single?


Not all noiseless pickups are the same and one can't make generalisations in the aggregate. For example, one must differentiate between stacked humbuckers and in line split humbuckers. The vid in the OP is about in line split humbuckers ONLY. Stacked humbuckers do not exhibit this issue at all.

The best balance between noiseless and sounding like a single coil (vs a miniaturised humbucker) is a stacked humbucker where the bottom coil is just a dummy (no second row of polepeices or no second blade). That said a true stacked humbucker, wired with coils in parallel (vs series) can get pretty close too.

Alembic used to use 3 coils - 2 pickups, neck and bridge, with a shared dummy coil in the middle.

Gibson once even tried a pickup that had coils for each individual string (in a humbucking config similar to a P pup - low 2 strings in series, in parallel with the other 2 which are reverse wound reverse polarity) on the EB4L bass:











Later Wal copied the idea and made it their 'thing' - took it further with 2 coils per string in a more typical humbucking config, and now, some 20-30 years later such pups are called "multi-coil" pickups and are a niche thing with a number of boutique makers doing them and a sizable community of fans (for guitar use as well as bass; but it started as a bass pickup innovation). See the Zexcoil series as a great example for Strat/Tele: Lawing Musical Products — Legacy Series

There has been tonnes of innovation in pickup design and 'noiseless' just doesn't communicate what kind of pickup it is or what it sounds like at all.

The Frailin Big Single is just a straight up mini humbucker though. It is not single coil sized at all. It's just designed and marketed as sounding like a single coil; a matter of voicing.









Fralin Big Single Mini: Huge Single Coil Sound, No Hum.


The Fralin Big Single Mini offers Single Coil tone, with no hum! Expect clarity with a bold midrange and thick lows, all in a Mini Humbucker size!




www.fralinpickups.com





Also, I can't believe the garbage in the description blurb ("This Mini Humbucker has a Bar Magnet that gives you an authentic Single-Coil tone ") - plenty of pups have bar magnets (most humbuckers) and don't sound single coil like at all. In fact, not having a bar magnet (instead each polepeice is a magnet ) is more of a single coil thing. I expected more from Frailin. Though I suspect the idea is that this thing sounds like a P90 (which does have bar magnets) but that's not hard because a P90 is a fatter (i.e. more humbucker sounding) single coil to begin with, compared to a Strat or Tele, which I think is what we're talking about here because that's what 'noiseless' replacements are usually for (though yes they have noiseless P90s too, but that's easier because you have more space to work with vs the S/T finger size jobbies and they don't tend to call them "noiseless" so much as a humbucking P90).









PAF Alnico Humbucking Guitar Pickup Magnets


Learn about PAF Alnico humbucking guitar pickup magnets with photos and history including a Doug and Pat Show video demonstrating the tonal properties of different magnets.



www.pafhumbucker.com


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

In some respects, the challenge faced by the sort of hum-rejecting single-coil Jon shows is like the challenge faced by divided pickups for guitar synths. In other words, there is an issue of string-to-string bleedthrough. In the case of synth pickups, you want each of the 6 individual coils - one under each string - to sense ONLY the string directly above it, and next to nothing from any adjacent strings. The "solution" was to make the overall pickup (GK-1, GK-2, GK-3, et al.) very slender and nestle it as close to the bridge as possible where "string wiggle" is negligible.

In the case of some kinds of two-coils-in-a-SC-package, the problem is not so much each polepiece needing to sense only one string. Rather, the D and G strings are in the awkward position of being subject to polepieces with opposite magnetic polarity. Staggering the two coils, as in the G&L example, or Precision basses, and even some Japanese guitars from the '60s, helps. What would help even more would be sticking the pickup right up against the bridge so that each string is only vibrating above the polepieces directly below it.

Of course, the downside is that a) it would only be applicable to the bridge pickup and could not be used for any other location, and b) jamming it so far back would lose most of the tone.


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## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

Doug B said:


> Those Godin pickups look a lot like Bill Lawrence L-45s twin blade pickups-right down to the appearance of the molded plastic.


Yup, very similar top view.
They were manufactured by Schaller back in the day.
Unlike the L45....Totally sealed in blue epoxy with 4 conductor shielded cable with drain.


https://www.bcwholesalers.com.au/123_122_273_637-single-coil-size-electric-guitar-pickups/4880-schaller-single-coil-sized-humbucker-2244-black.html


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

NashvilleDeluxe said:


> I have come to strongly dislike “noiseless” single coils, but could never put my finger on why.


I've come to the conclusion that things need to just stop trying to be something else. Every pickup design has its place. Every "noiseless" version of a single coil sacrifices something. Some get very close, but not quite there. That doesn't mean they sound bad. They just don't sound exactly like a "real" single coil, the way they are marketed. If someone gave me a guitar with noiseless strat pickups and told me, "These sound exactly like regular strat pickups!" I would probably find them lacking... But, if they instead told me about the character and dynamics of the pickups and why they liked them, I'd probably listen for the good and think of applications where that tone would be useful.

I should mention here that I spent my entire guitar playing life happily playing through humbuckers and noiseless single coils. I would tell everyone that they sound exactly like single coils, the difference is all in your head. It wasn't until I started winding pickups that I fell in love with a pure single coil sound.



> The one exception is a guitar I ended up buying that has a Fralin Big Single in it.My understanding is that it has a bar magnet, but is cleaner than a P90. It’s a fat single coil sound, much like a Lollar Special T in another of my Telecaster styles. What do you think is going on under the hood of the Big Single?


From the very limited specs they provide, it seems like it's just a humbucker that uses a neodymium magnet instead of AlNiCo or ceramic. Neo magnets will help brighten up the tone quite a bit. How each coil is wound on the humbucker makes a difference as well. For instance, I know for Dimarzio's single coil voiced humbuckers (full sized, rails, and stacked), the second coil is always wound to about 1/3 the amount of turns of the first coil. That's enough to eliminate a lot of the hum, but not so much that you lose a ton of high end clarity.

There are a few "tricks" to making a humbucker brighter, and any number of them could have been employed in the design of the "Big Single". Couldn't tell you exactly what method Fralin used without seeing under the hood and doing some measurements. Demos sounded good. Like a bright P90.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Paul Running said:


> I agree with your statement. IMO, there are more critical parameters that determine the performance of a PU, ones that affect the dynamics such as inductance and capacitance...I find it difficult obtaining the full technical specs on a pick-up, mainly rely on what they advertise which may not be entirely true.


Inductance ("output") and resonant peak (including the amplitude of the peak) tell you everything you need to know about the sound of a pickup. The big problem there is that most people don't know what those things are, or how they relate to the tone/dynamics of the pickup. So, passing that info on to your average every day customers maybe just muddies the waters for a lot of them. I didn't know what those were or what bode plots were until I deep dived into pickup making.

Another problem is that there are many ways to measure those things, and you'll get different results depending on the method used. So, at least with a company that uses the same measurement method on all of their pickups, you could easily compare all of their pickups to each other accurately. But it doesn't help you when comparing pickups from brand X with pickups from brand Y.

The deeper you go technically, the more complicated marketing becomes. I am really starting to understand why most pickup companies just list DCR, maybe provide a completely subjective tone chart, and then call it a day.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

jbealsmusic said:


> I've come to the conclusion that things need to just stop trying to be something else. Every pickup design has its place. Every "noiseless" version of a single coil sacrifices something. Some get very close, but not quite there. That doesn't mean they sound bad. They just don't sound exactly like a "real" single coil, the way they are marketed. If someone gave me a guitar with noiseless strat pickups and told me, "These sound exactly like regular strat pickups!" I would probably find them lacking... But, if they instead told me about the character and dynamics of the pickups and why they liked them, I'd probably listen for the good and think of applications where that tone would be useful.
> 
> I should mention here that I spent my entire guitar playing life happily playing through humbuckers and noiseless single coils. I would tell everyone that they sound exactly like single coils, the difference is all in your head. It wasn't until I started winding pickups that I fell in love with a pure single coil sound.


I totally agree. That's why I went with the Ilitch system in my #1 strat and tele. I learned from years of using hum-cancelling singles that there's nothing quite like a nice single coil. I just wanted the sound of the existing pickups, minus the hum.

That's not to say that hum-cancelling singles aren't useful in their own way. I still like how they sound, and as you say, I prefer to judge them on their own merits.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Things are still a long way from perfect, but the challenge of hum-rejection is just as much the many sources of EMI as it is the weaknesses of pickups. Bit by bit, those EMI sources are diminishing. Lights are more likely to be LED than fluorescent. Big transformers are being replaced by much smaller switching supplies, and so on.

There are also pickup designs that do not attempt to be hum-rejecting or "noiseless", but rather less susceptible to EMI. The Lace pickup is one example. The Alumitone is another, and the low-impedance pickups on the old Les Paul Recording are yet another. All true single coil, but designed to be much less susceptible to EMI/hum.

The Ilitch/Suhr system can be quite effective. The downside is that it is optimally suited to a Strat and can't really work with any other guitars using some form of single coil and lack a tremolo mechanism backplate. The Ilitch backplate is a kind of dummy coil which surrounds all 3 pickups, yielding equivalent hum-sensing for all 3.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mhammer said:


> The Ilitch/Suhr system can be quite effective. The downside is that it is optimally suited to a Strat and can't really work with any other guitars using some form of single coil and lack a tremolo mechanism backplate.


In addition, is the Ilitch not "tuned" (via the trimmer pot) to have optimal hum reduction in a specific "environment"? This could make it a less than ideal solution if one was playing in many different environments. Maybe the degree of change of hum-rejection associated with changing environments amounts to "mice nuts" but it is what I remember being told by a tech.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

Most of this is too much for my pea-sized brain to process. I did read the OP, and subsequent posts but I honestly don’t know if I saw an answer to this...
The initial wind goes around the three bass poles, and three treble posts. Never seen that, and seems like a “good fix” till you realize it created dead spots. OP mentioned you can minimize (not remove completely) the dead spot with a rail.
What about a final wrap around the whole thing? Wrap the B/T poles (say) 25% less, then when you put them together, go around the outside of entire thing
Not sure if that would recreate the hum field you were trying to get rid of in the first place, not get rid of the dead spot, lose the characteristic of a single too much, or be a warbled mess of all those things...

Again, I just play... I’m no Tech.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

greco said:


> In addition, is the Ilitch not "tuned" (via the trimmer pot) to have optimal hum reduction in a specific "environment"? This could make it a less than ideal solution if one was playing in many different environments. Maybe the degree of change of hum-rejection associated with changing environments amounts to "mice nuts" but it is what I remember being told by a tech.


Hum-rejection is a matter of having two coils that are equally sensitive to EMI. Part of that is being identical coils, and another part is being oriented in a manner that "receives" identical amounts of EMI. That's easy to do when you have a dual-coil pickup and the coils are beside or on top of each other. The Ilitch plate doesn't do that automatically, so the trimmer is used to essentially "tune in" radio station CEMI, 60hz on the dial, in a manner that matches what the pickups are getting....but opposite phase.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

Ilitch sells different sets depending on the output of your pickups. After that, you can adjust the trim pot to your liking. The tech who installed mine decided to have it maxed out and I keep it that way. I don't notice a loss in top end.

Ilitch also uses a variety of systems for different guitars (even Gibson). The most extreme option is a direct installation via routing (I'm curious to know if anybody ever chooses that option!)

The downside is how expensive it is. Especially for what seems like $2 worth of parts. But a patent is a patent, I guess.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Yeah, the Strat is really optimized for a non-invasive installation of that system, with something like a dual-P90 guitar not providing any installation-ready surface. Even a Telecaster wouldn't be amenable to a coil that encircles both pickups. In theory, a coil could be installed inside a semi- or fully-hollow P90-equipped guitar, like a Casino, without requiring body-modification, but it would NOT be easy!


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

jbealsmusic said:


> If you bend your string into the "neutral" area, your string is no longer magnetic at that spot and your signal drops or disappears entirely because the coils no longer "see" the string.


Considering that many don't bend the 'D' string, would a 2 - 4 split work?


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

laristotle said:


> Considering that many don't bend the 'D' string, would a 2 - 4 split work?
> View attachment 370871


If they do bend the D string, it's usually towards the G so I guess that could work. Winding 2 coils of the same dimensions to sound the same and have the same output is easy. It would take some more careful math to do a 2-4 split and the tonal options would be more limited, but it would be doable.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

laristotle asks an interesting question. Again, the issue is that both coils have to be equally susceptible to EMI, but they* also* have to have similar inductance and frequency response. That's much easier to achieve when they are wound in identical manner and have the same general coil shape and size.

As has been pointed out in earlier posts, some manufacturers have tried different strategies for separating the fields of the D and G. Have any manufacturers or builders tried differential charging of the polepieces under the D and G strings, or used staggered height in a manner that can either avoid or reduce potential dead spots? 

Looking up staggered polepieces, one sees suggested heights for D and G that vary depending on fretboard radius and string type (wound vs unwound G). I know that on pickups I've wound, sensitivity to different strings can be evened out by bridging/coupling the polepieces with some ferromagnetic material. I wonder if using a shorter polepiece under the D and/or G, combined with a plate underneath the polepieces would allow for a more even response across strings (i.e., no dead space).


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

mhammer said:


> Yeah, the Strat is really optimized for a non-invasive installation of that system, with something like a dual-P90 guitar not providing any installation-ready surface. Even a Telecaster wouldn't be amenable to a coil that encircles both pickups. In theory, a coil could be installed inside a semi- or fully-hollow P90-equipped guitar, like a Casino, without requiring body-modification, but it would NOT be easy!


Actually, the tele pickguard version works really well even though it doesn't encircle both pickups. It performs every bit as well as my strat. Not sure why, but it does. Maybe it's a question of proximity?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Grab n Go said:


> Actually, the tele pickguard version works really well even though it doesn't encircle both pickups. It performs every bit as well as my strat. Not sure why, but it does. Maybe it's a question of proximity?


Quite likely.
Some 30 years back, I installed a dummy coil in the control cavity of a buddy's Telecaster, and it provided substantial (though not perfect) hum-cancellation. So proximity is a gradated phenomenon. Immediately adjacent (as in a double-bladed, or PAF is "best", encircling the neighbourhood is also VERY good, but nearby can also be pretty good, too. 

From my perspective, the objective is not complete *elimination* of all hum, but rather reduction of hum to something you can live with. It's clearly easier to live with zero hum, but a 15-18db reduction is pretty sweet too.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

I've used this method on J-bass pups. Not complete elimination, but noticeably quieter.








Mod Garage: How to Shield Single-Coil Pickups


Here’s the secret for reducing unwanted hum and noise without losing sparkle and highs.




www.premierguitar.com


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

laristotle said:


> I've used this method on J-bass pups. Not complete elimination, but noticeably quieter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For the best results using that method you would want to have a separate lead for the shield. Pickup start, pickup finish, and ground, all separate. The same way you would want a separate ground lead for the cover on a tele neck pickup, etc.


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