# No sleep for the wicked!



## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

So this event of NO sleep is getting to me. I couldn't sleep all night for the 2nd time this week. I can't keep on resorting to chemical intervention to put me in lala land. I just can't seem to shut my damned brain off. I shut off all extraneous activities off at 12. No phone, no guitar and no laptop. I kept tossing and turning. I read, had a warm milk and nothing but damn it nothing is working. Before I knew it, it was 8 am. My sons are getting ready to meet the day and all I want to do is get some sleep. 

I now have to go in for my shift at work and I feel like a physical train wreck.

I am even thinking instead of lunch at work, that I would go for a walk. Anything to induce severe tiredness. 

I have a few situations on my plate. I have a tendency to overthink things and worry terribly. I am really worried that one situation may not turn out the way I would like it to.

What do you do when you can't sleep? Alcohol sleep inducements are out of the question as I don't drink and cookies keep me so mentally creative I can't sleep!


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

When I can't sleep,I just get up.
Laying there tossing and turning just makes me more frustrated,not to mention it disturbs wifey's sleep as well.
Something mindless on tv often will put me out,but if not I just stay up.
Doesn't happen to me very often though,I'm outside a lot,I think fresh air really helps with sleep .
When I used to indulge in a bit of smoke,it always kept me awake until the high had worn off.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Lola said:


> So this event of NO sleep is getting to me. I couldn't sleep all night for the 2nd time this week. I can't keep on resorting to chemical intervention to put me in lala land. I just can't seem to shut my damned brain off. I shut off all extraneous activities off at 12. No phone, no guitar and no laptop. I kept tossing and turning. I read, had a warm milk and nothing but damn it nothing is working. Before I knew it, it was 8 am. My sons are getting ready to meet the day and all I want to do is get some sleep.
> 
> I now have to go in for my shift at work and I feel like a physical train wreck.
> 
> ...


I'm a chronic insomniac. At least two nights a week I get only an hour or two of sleep and even on a good night I'm lucky to have five hours.

I take nothing in terms of chemical intervention. On the nights I can't sleep I listen to audio books or pod casts.

Somehow my body copensates. I'm flying to Minneapolis thie evening. I'll be out like a light before the plane takes off.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

1) Valerian root tea is pretty powerful stuff. Used to be used in the 19th century for labour pains and severe menstrual cramps. I don't have, and never expect to have, either but having drunk it several times in my youth, I can vouch for its very powerful soporific effects. Only down side is, to me at least, it has a bit of a barfy smell to it. Your nose may be different.

2) My wife's snoring - a trait apparently shared by her entire family, and coming from her mother's side - can be pretty loud. Frankly, I don't understand how it doesn't wake her up. If I fall asleep before her, I'm fine, but if she starts snorting when I'm in the shallower end of the sleep cycle, or if I get up for a tinkle and return to bed with her revving up her nasal Harley, I will have difficulty returning to sleep. Under those circumstances, I put on my earphones and tune the radio to CBC Radio One. They run repeats of some daytime shows overnight, in addition to broadcasts from the British, German, and Australian equivalents of CBC . I figure if I don't fall asleep, I'll at least come away more knowledgable and worldly.

3) A friend of our younger son developed an app called _Celestial_, which has apparently been tearing up the iTunes charts in the Health section. He developed it in response to complaints from fellow senior high school students about exam stress and worries keeping them up at nights. I gather it streams soothing music and sounds intended to make you drowzy. I don't know more than that, except that he gets 83 cents from every sale, and it would appear to have pretty much paid his university tuition so far.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-teen-s-relaxation-app-celestial-hits-top-50-1.2990728


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

Melatonin deficiency. Your body produces it naturally when you need to sleep. Available in most health food stores, and Pharmacies.
2, 5 mg. tablets before bed do it for me when I'm having trouble sleeping. You wake up well rested.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I worked in a melatonin lab in the late 70's. Melatonin is produced in the pineal gland, which is highly connected to the visual system, registering total daylight. Melatonin is produced during the dark, and while I suppose it may have something to do with sleep, it is also an anti-gonadatrophic hormone (i.e., it works _against_ your reproductive organs/system). Melatonin production is known to stay high, and regress to pre-pubescent levels in young women who become anorexic. The manner in which production is entrained to seasonal changes in day-length is part of what produces "rutting season" and "spring fever". That is, during those times of the year when the nights are longer, more melatonin is produced, and interest in things reproductive is reduced. As the days get longer and the nights shorter, melatonin production declines, and reproductive interest picks up.

I had to run a study where we had 360 male hamsters, half of whom had 14hrs dark, 10hrs light, and the other half had 14hrs light, 10hrs dark. There was a _tenfold_ difference in the size of their testicles. That's right. The mostly-dark half had little pea-sized guys, and the other half were dragging around a duffel bag between their thighs. I'm not kidding.

The connection between the visual system, the pineal, melatonin, and reproductive interest, is one of the mechanisms that allows for many species to get pregnant at the "right" time of the year, such that the normal gestation period, and time it takes for the offspring to be reasonably self-sufficient, assures that the offspring will make it through the toughest part of the year when food is least available. In short, if your species is to thrive, you got to have your babies at the right time, which means you have to_ make _your babies at the right time.

Now, not ALL species need to have their reproductive behaviour as tightly synced with seasonal shifts in daylength as hamsters or deer, or bears, such that they are only enticeable to mating at certain times of the year. But there IS evidence of human shifts in melatonin production and sexual interest over the year, and the expression "in spring, young mens' fancy turns to thoughts of love" didn't come from nowhere.

T'wer I, I wouldn't mess around with melatonin as a sleep aid. Very few hormones have one, and only one, function. Using them for one function, while ignoring the others, can be dangerous. I did my M.Sc. on memory-enhancing hormones. At the time, vasopressin ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasopressin ) was under serious consideration as a memory-enhancing agent, intended for use with dementing seniors. Trouble is that, while it did have reliable memory enhancing effects, its primary function is anti-diuretic, resulting in water retention and modulation of blood pressure. At the other end of the spectrum, oxytocin is the hormone that prompts labour contractions, and facilitates bonding with offspring. But it also has a demonstrable amnesic effect. Squirt/inject it into animals, and they forget stuff you teach 'em. Like I say, few hormones have one action and one action only.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

I'm not as bad as what you or Mike describe, but have always had difficulty going to sleep. And, like Mark, have a wife who snores very loudly and can occasionally prevent me from passing out.

I do find that when I am exercising regularly, the more heavily the better, it's easier to fall asleep. I'm in a good exercise cycle the past month and have whapped myself in the face with my book several times the past couple of weeks, reading lying on my back and passing out. LOL. Actually, a good thing.

The worrying thing - if you can let that go it will do more for you than anything else you can imagine. Meditation maybe? Find peace of mind, it may or may not help you sleep but it will guaranteed reduce your life stress. If it's worry about events you can control, then control them. If about events you can't control, no point, put them out of your mind until the situations arise, or at worst think through possible outcomes and how you will deal with them and then put them out of your mind until they arise.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I also have a hard time not being able to turn the brain off. You have to start preparing for sleep long before bedtime. Thats not always possible but if you can get in to relaxation mode an hour or 2 before bed its going to help. When I used to have terrible problems getting to sleep, I'd read. Reading usually would put me out anywhere from 3 to 10 pages. No eating at least 3 to 4 hours before bed. love making with my wife has helped. But the biggest impact on me getting to sleep every night is a fairly consistent routine. I have been pretty good with getting to sleep for a couple years now because of a consistent routine. I do have the odd issue maybe once every couple weeks or so with a night of little sleep. But its much better than every other night.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Once upon a time, you could buy L-Tryptophan tablets. Tryptophan is a chemical precursor to seratonin, and seratonin is also involved in producing sleep. Before a few unfortunate poisoning-by-impurities incidents that resulted in it being taken off the market and banned, I tried it. The clinical literature had found that it tended to expedite sleep onset, and lengthened the night's sleep by a bit (we're talking probably something under a half hour on average). I found that I didn't fall asleep faster, but that last hour in the morning that can make or beak a night's sleep was pure velvet.

While apparently you can'T buy it in pure form any more, it IS a chemical component of many foods. Both bananas and milk are high in tryptophan. Your mother was right to give you warm milk before bedtime. I'm sure the warmth had its own cozying effect, but the milk came with something a little extra. You gotta figure that a warm banana/yogurt smoothie might be just the ticket.


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

mhammer said:


> I worked in a melatonin lab in the late 70's. Melatonin is produced in the pineal gland, which is highly connected to the visual system, registering total daylight. Melatonin is produced during the dark, and while I suppose it may have something to do with sleep, it is also an anti-gonadatrophic hormone (i.e., it works _against_ your reproductive organs/system). Melatonin production is known to stay high, and regress to pre-pubescent levels in young women who become anorexic. The manner in which production is entrained to seasonal changes in day-length is part of what produces "rutting season" and "spring fever". That is, during those times of the year when the nights are longer, more melatonin is produced, and interest in things reproductive is reduced. As the days get longer and the nights shorter, melatonin production declines, and reproductive interest picks up.
> 
> I had to run a study where we had 360 male hamsters, half of whom had 14hrs dark, 10hrs light, and the other half had 14hrs light, 10hrs dark. There was a _tenfold_ difference in the size of their testicles. That's right. The mostly-dark half had little pea-sized guys, and the other half were dragging around a duffel bag between their thighs. I'm not kidding.
> 
> ...


Wow Fascinating stuff. Thanks Mhammer for enlightening us.


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## Fader (Mar 10, 2009)

*​*https://www.bulletproofexec.com/how-to-hack-your-sleep-the-art-and-science-of-sleeping/


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i can usually sleep at any time, in any position, as long as i can stay still and quiet for about 15 minutes. i was not always so gifted. alot of my problem was bein all up in my head about things that were mostly beyond my control. one thing that usually helped me was was a routine i developed. 

go lay in bed. close your eyes, and imagine yourself doing whatever your favorite thing is. but *see* (in your mind's eye) the entire ritual, in as much detail as you can muster. for example, at that time, my fav thing was going fishing at my secret spot, all by myself. so i would imagine myself waking up to my alarm at 6:am, and getting out of bed. walking to the bathroom, pullin down my drawz, doin the 45° lean over, pullin my drawz back up, washing my hands, brushin my teeth (i had more of them then) coming my hair, etc. i would go through in my head, opening the drawers and picking a t shirt, jeans, socks, putting on my shoes, all through my routine of when i would light a smoke, gathering my gear, packing the bike, dressing to ride, warming the bike up, and every detail of the trip down and what i would do there. every. single. mundane. detail. bein all up in your head is like a dog chasin it's tail. cause every single time it's gong to be something you can't do much about. ymmv, but that's my personal experience. i recently found this video below, _but i haven't watched it yet_. i have no clue of it's value, but the title looked like it might be useful

[video]https://youtu.be/dTFDfR47dl4[/video]


i don't understand why i no longer seem to be able to post youtube videos anymore. other people seem to be able to do it. i used to be able to. did something change recently-ish?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> close your eyes, and imagine yourself doing whatever your favorite thing is. but *see* (in your mind's eye) the entire ritual, in as much detail as you can muster.


Yup I use this technique all the time. For me its seeing my self on a golf course (different ones I've played on) and seeing my self play the holes from tee to green. I always get par or better. I seldom make it any farther than the eighth hole before I drift in to dream land, where I continue the round in more realism.


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## whywhyzed (Jan 28, 2008)

January 2014 was sleepless month for me. We had these giant Costco bags of assorted munchies (Doritos? with pretzels etc) left over from our work xmas party- they were sitting in the lunchroom. I was grabbing a little cupful or two every day at break time. I don't know if it was the MSG, but they were loaded with it. 
One day it hit me and I quit eating the stuff. Within a week or two my sleep returned to normal.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Yep, eating before you go to sleep - unless not eating would leave your stomach rumbling from emptiness - is usually not helpful. If the food is difficult to digest in any way, that will be even less helpful.

A nice cup of decaf - especially if you are a prolific and habitual coffee drinker - can often work too. I know if I have a cup of decaf, I have a hard time NOT falling asleep in the hour that follows.


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## johnnyshaka (Nov 2, 2014)

ASMR stuff helps me relax in the evening especially when I find I'm stressed about something...usually work.

There are several great ASMR channels on Youtube and while they are videos and some of the video can aid in the relaxation I find that the audio is usually enough.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Wow! This thread is very enlightening! Thank you mhammer!

I have tried Melatonin pills and strips. It just doesn't work on me. I haven't a clue as to why. My sons find it very helpful to induce a nice restful ambience so they can drift off to sleep. I have tried it a couple of times with NO results.

My GP knows of my chronic insomnia. He said that he would make necessary arrangements for me to attend a sleep clinic if I wanted. I have to do something. I really can't function on 0 sleep. I have been up for 38 hours and should be dead tired! I just feel weary! Sleep is eluding me. I wasn't capable of fully functioning today at work. I felt totally off kilter.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Same issues of worries/annoyances running through the brain non-stop when trying to fall asleep here, causing a fair bit of sleep trouble in the last couple of years. For me, it's actually guitar that often sets me up for a decent sleep. Not heavy stuff, but say blues or just running through pentatonics on clean, moderate volume. If I am practicing a lick, visualization of doing that lick helps a fair bit when in bed -- refocuses the brain from the worries.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

mhammer said:


> I had to run a study where we had 360 male hamsters, half of whom had 14hrs dark, 10hrs light, and the other half had 14hrs light, 10hrs dark. There was a _tenfold_ difference in the size of their testicles. That's right. *The mostly-dark half had little pea-sized guys, and the other half were dragging around a duffel bag between their thighs. I'm not kidding.*


Did you guys come across anything that makes there other part bigger? And if you did, is that what Ron Jeremy is pushing? Just wondering...it's not like my wife keeps bugging me to check it out or anything.

Anyway, me and my small penis sleep like a baby - right through the night, but will wake up for odd noises. My wife woke me up last night with the most horrific vomit sounds and I nearly jumped from the bed to the bathroom (she was diagnosed with dumbest named illness ever - 'labrynthitis'). 

Wish I had something more helpful to share.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

adcandour said:


> Did you guys come across anything that makes there other part bigger? And if you did, is that what Ron Jeremy is pushing? Just wondering...it's not like my wife keeps bugging me to check it out or anything.
> 
> Anyway, me and my small penis sleep like a baby - right through the night, but will wake up for odd noises. My wife woke me up last night with the most horrific vomit sounds and I nearly jumped from the bed to the bathroom (she was diagnosed with dumbest named illness ever - 'labrynthitis').
> 
> Wish I had something more helpful to share.


Just a side note. When someone looks at you and says, "Who's that going to please?". you look at them and say, "Me.".


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Electraglide said:


> Just a side note. When someone looks at you and says, "Who's that going to please?". you look at them and say, "Me.".


You're a wise man, eg.


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## Dr.StringBender (Mar 1, 2014)

Go for a massage, preferably one that does some reiki or energy type stuff. You're holding onto to negative energy and need help to take it off. Sounds fru fru, but it really helped me in similar situations. Natural is best, but that doesn't always mean taking something. Sometimes we need to get something out. 

Hope that genuinely helps.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

I watched Cheezy's recommendation, Eckhart Tolle! It makes total sense to me! I am going to try this tonight! It's going to take some practice.

I do worry intensely about things that are in my control and not. 

I am seriously addicted to thinking!! I just can't "be"! Dissecting, analyzing, critical thinking, reasoned thinking! You see the spiral of addiction!


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Strange, no one has mentioned sex.....so I will. Helps put me to sleep at times. Nice thing about sex is that you don't always need a partner. You're in complete control and only have to think about one thing.....you. If you're worried about the kids and your partner says you're making too much noise, well there's always the shower. 
If that don't work, did you ever fall asleep on the back of a bike?


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

It's now 2:29 am and I still can't sleep!!!

In 5.5 hours I will have been awake for 48 hours. This is crazy. I am desperate!

I am slowly but surely going to derail at some point!


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Electraglide said:


> Strange, no one has mentioned sex.....so I will. Helps put me to sleep at times. Nice thing about sex is that you don't always need a partner. You're in complete control and only have to think about one thing.....you. If you're worried about the kids and your partner says you're making too much noise, well there's always the shower.
> If that don't work, did you ever fall asleep on the back of a bike?


During? or after?

- - - Updated - - -



Lola said:


> It's now 2:29 am and I still can't sleep!!!
> 
> In 5.5 hours I will have been awake for 48 hours. This is crazy. I am desperate!


I once stayed up for about 72 hours--and then slept for 12 or 13.
I was young.


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## johnnyshaka (Nov 2, 2014)

Lola said:


> It's now 2:29 am and I still can't sleep!!!
> 
> In 5.5 hours I will have been awake for 48 hours. This is crazy. I am desperate!
> 
> I am slowly but surely going to derail at some point!


Got home from hockey (and the bar) an hour ago and I'm still wired...time for one of my favorite ASMR videos...I'm usually out cold before it's over.

[video=youtube;oapgiZc5i-g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oapgiZc5i-g[/video]


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Go to a used book store and pick up an old textbook on something you know nothing about - calculus, organic chemistry, economics, physics, statistics - something with a lot of Greek letters and subscripts in it. Stretch out on a couch and try reading it. Wake up again and check the calendar to see what day it is.

A useful alternative is CPAC. I watch it whenever I'm home sick. Nothing like watching a senate committee meeting or economic conference to get one inspecting the underside of their eyelids.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

CPAC's good (or bad, depending....). F1 works for me too. I can barely make it to the pitstops anymore. And all the races are in the middle of the night now for the euro-weenies, so even better.

Seriously though, I deal with insomnia (and its hereditary). In my 20's, I was trying to live two lives - I worked 9-5 and then would go live vicariously through my friends playing the bars (this was the 80's). Doc finally told me to smarten up and quit screwing with my sleep sched. 

Sticking to a schedule helped alot but I still didn't sleep 7 - 8 hours a night. The big change recently is I've been reading about how everyone doesn't necessarily need that much. There's alot of guilt being dealt out there: "if you don't get 7 hours sleep, you are killing yourself", "you must get more sleep", "you need to get more sleep or else". What they don't get is not everyone can just close their eyes and go to sleep. No one really knows how they go to sleep. If I can get by with 4 or 5 hours and I'm not tired, so what. Lots of people are like this (and many of them aren't insane). And not feeling bad about my quantity of sleep is a good thing to me. 

I occasionally have a completely restless night, but that usually means the next one will be better. And if I have a couple of bad ones and really need to sleep, halcyon is my friend. But only when I really need to shut the monkeys the hell up and go to sleep.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Went an gambled the night away at the Blue Heron Casino in Port Perry! Son couldn't sleep either. I rarely gamble but it was something to do at that time! Packed up and left the house at 3:45 am. Just got in the door right now. Won $200 on slots! Phoned in sick at work already. Doctors appt. today at 5:30. Taking a prescription sleeping pill and already calling it a day


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

I've tried ZMA which I found works really well - I also get a really deep sleep. ZMA is a combination of Zinc, Magnesium and Vitamin B-6. But for those nights where my brain will just not shut off, I choose a mildly interesting podcast, put one ear bud in and turn it down low enough that I really have to focus to hear it. That ends up shutting up the other dialogues in my brain and I usually fall asleep relatively quickly. For me, it works like a charm.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Going to go to a sleep clinic. GP is going to set this up for me. He really doesn't know what is going on with me. He said I worry too much and it shortens your life span. Ya, like I don't know that already! For sure I won't be able to get any sleep at the clinic hooked up to all the monitors.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Sometimes I wonder if my career choice is connected to my insomnia.

I've been on a business trip this week that should have been a simple overnight but with flight cancellations and delays, it turned into an extra night and day and two days in a row of getting up at 4:00 AM.

I'm still trying to get back home. If I have no more delays I should be back in my office around 2:00, but I'm pretty fried today.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Lola said:


> Going to go to a sleep clinic. GP is going to set this up for me. He really doesn't know what is going on with me. He said I worry too much and it shortens your life span. Ya, like I don't know that already! For sure I won't be able to get any sleep at the clinic hooked up to all the monitors.


I did the sleep clinic thing once many years ago. I had wires hooked up every where. I didn't think I slept at all but they said I drifted off long enough for them to get readings. In the end my issues weren't anything they could address. And it sounds like possibly it will be the same for you. I think what they were looking for is things like, do I stop breathing (sleep apnea) and things like that.


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## buzzy (May 28, 2011)

I don't really follow a set schedule. I only go to bed when I'm sleepy. That way, I'm not lying there tossing and turning. When my head hits the pillow, I'm out within a few minutes.


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

Feels like in raising this thread from the dead.
If FEEL like the dead now.
Up at 3:15 this morning, bad dreams. 
In my dream,All my childhood friends died after leaving my 5th birthday party.
Really sent me for a loop!
Supposed to see a band tonight, maybe asleep before they even start!
Woodhawk at Ship & Anchor.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I feel your pain man.

I have no solution. I won't take drugs for it so I have to suck it up.

It's always a matter of turning my mind off. It's hard for me.

That's why I look the way I do.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I sleep like a stone, anywhere, anytime...most of the time. I've gone through periods of sleeplessness, particularly when badly stressed. This I know, diet, exercise, and no stress will help. A glass of water before bed (I get restless leg, but I hate being dehydrated at night) can help. No uppers after mid day, caffeine, sugar, or artificial foods. Do not eat after dinner, no snacking. I used to use alcohol to put me to sleep in times of stress but quit drinking years ago. Be physically tired at bedtime. Be very regular about bedtime, even to the minute. Same with waking. I always bathe in the morning, but bathing right before bed can help to relax. Sometimes I'll hit the gym in the evening if I'm too keyed up, so that followed by some stretching and a shower can prep me for bed.

Good luck!

Peace, Mooh.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I have no freaking idea how my wife can head off to the can in the middle of the night, TURN THE LIGHTS ON, wash her hands in what will inevitably be initially cold water, and then be snoring again within 45 seconds after she's back in bed. I have to feel my way to the john in the dark with my eyes closed just to be able to fall back asleep within an hour after coming to bed.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm up several times every night, usually starting around 4:00 AM and then 5:00, 6:00 et cetera until it's time to rise around 6:45.

I don't necessarily fall back to sleep. I lie there and rest. That's better than nothing.

I've learned to accept it. I know there are pills you can take but I figure there are underlying causes (stress) that are the real issue and taking a chemical to get to sleep bothers me. I'm concerned about them being addictive and also that I may not wake up quickly in a crisis.

As for excercising, that jacks me up. No way could I sleep within an hour or two of a good workout.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

I just lay their and tell myself well at least my body is resting. If I don't get to 'sleep I get up and watch TV. That will usually knock me out.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Very stressed right now and not sleeping very much. Went to bed at 4:30 am at work by 8 am! There is some really horrendous shit happening at work right now by a disgruntled former employee. We have contacted HR in regards to this matter. This person sent my mgr some horribly graphic and violent videos via facebook! I thought I would have the stomach to witness them but I almost threw up instead. I feel like a wet noodle!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

That may well be a matter for the police, not HR. It starts to verge on criminal harassment, from your description.

You need to get yourself a calculus or organic chemistry textbook, and try and teach yourself. Chances are pretty good someone will find you still sleeping, 12hrs later, with the textbook on your tummy, open to the 2nd page.


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