# On stage without an Amp



## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

My buddies and I hit a jam this weekend. 
I went direct to board with my RP355


Comments are appreciated.
Dirty comments are recommended

[video=youtube_share;piIe5hzT5Nc]http://youtu.be/piIe5hzT5Nc[/video]


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I've heard many people say they wouldn't go on stage with one of those "things", etc, etc, etc. I guess it looks more impressive when you go on stage with 12 pedals attached to your pedal board. It doesn't sound any better and there's more chance for one of those 12 pedals to kick the bucket than one FX unit but it does look more impressive...........at least to the owner of the pedal board.

You just may need some recording help, though, if you don't mind some constructive critiscism.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

It was recorded by my fiancé with an iPad. 
The volume changes are all done by the bars F.o.h. Guy. 

Pretty sure he was drunk.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

It's no secret that you can get great tones going direct.

Having gone back and forth a couple of times, I'm convinced that much, in fact _most_ of the merit of glass bottles and iron is in the minds of those who use them.

The best, most consistent, and most functional sounds I have had both live and in the studio have been direct.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

djmarcelca said:


> It was recorded by my fiancé with an iPad.
> The volume changes are all done by the bars F.o.h. Guy.
> 
> Pretty sure he was drunk.


Well, pretty hard to control things when someone is in that condition. It was likely more his fault than your fiance's. We did some business videos with an iPad and they turned out excellent.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> I've heard many people say they wouldn't go on stage with one of those "things", etc, etc, etc. I guess it looks more impressive when you go on stage with 12 pedals attached to your pedal board. It doesn't sound any better and there's more chance for one of those 12 pedals to kick the bucket than one FX unit but it does look more impressive...........at least to the owner of the pedal board.
> 
> You just may need some recording help, though, if you don't mind some constructive critiscism.


I hate being able to control my sound using my amps as on stage monitors and would rather leave it up to some sound guy who doesn't know the band. It's always better when they don't care, don't know any better or are drunk. I especially like it when myself and my band members can't hear each other at all because we don't have any control over our gear, it really makes us play better, tighter with confidence and gives a whole new meaning to live music. I'm also rethinking my board, a single POD is the way to go. If it gets unplugged everything will go silent and people love silence when they go out to see someone play music. I wouldn't dream of putting together a properly wired board where a well placed looper or true bypass pedals could easily get you out of a jam and 12 pedals often go down at the same time, I mean in the 18 years I've been playing live it's happened like zero times. What's that about? Also, if my ZOOM sounds good in my headphones while I play in my closet it will sound incredible in a live venue in front of a ton of people. Trust me I know, I haven't done it but I've got a pretty good feeling about it, watched a lot of YouTube vids. I guess the reason I see all those fully functioning and awesome sounding vintage amps and pedals on the market is because guys are trading up to POD XT's and totally reliable plastic ZOOM's, truly timeless products that many collectors are most likely putting in the vault instead of the garbage or used market.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

I've played with amps for years, and I gotta say, for me I love no amp on stage. 
My RP355 is mounted in a hard shell pedalboard case, with the wall wart to a power/surge strip that's bolted down to the case, same with the processor. It's bolted down. 

I can lift it up completely and nothing moves. The only way something is coming unplugged is if a breaker blows up.
As for the f.o.h. Guy, it's not really something I'm going to worry about, some are better than others.
It's the same thing on the board anyway.
XLR input from my processors built in DI or from my amps built in DI.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

As with most new technology, guitarists are generally quick to dismiss going direct, but I wonder how many have actually given it a fair trial. 

The reality is, the stage mix I get going direct is much better than with an amp. 

First, lets make a couple of assumptions.

1. You have a sound man whom you trust and who knows the band. Speaking about actual gigs as opposed to just jumping on stage at an open mic or jam night, why the F$#k would you put a dickhead in one of, if not THE most important roles in getting a good sound?

2. You have multiple monitor mixes. This is a not an exotic request. Most boards have a number of auxiliaries which are perfect for different mixes. Mine allows six I believe. I typically run three monitor mixes. 



So, the guitarist naturally has more guitar in his monitors than say, the singer. But, the other guys can have as much guitar as they want. Sometimes your amp is not enough to satisfy the other players. Those things are directional as hell after all.

And as for everything going down at once, The cost of redundancy or at least the cost of an effective and portable back up is tiny compared to a good back up amp.

You can get a used Vox Tonelab LE (which to my ear sounds better than any POD I've used) for a couple of hundred bucks.

Going direct works and works brilliantly, but you have to be willing to accept change.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> And as for everything going down at once, The cost of redundancy or at least the cost of an effective and portable back up is tiny compared to a good back up amp.
> 
> You can get a used Vox Tonelab LE (which to my ear sounds better than any POD I've used) for a couple of hundred bucks.
> 
> Going direct works and works brilliantly, but _*you have to be willing to accept change.*_


How many times have we heard some old timer saying, "Well, sonny, I've been doing it this way for 20 years". How many of us would say a car or truck produced 20 years ago are as good as the new models? How many construction contractors don't use a pneumatic nailer?

Milky, I think you hit the nail on the head (did you use a hammer or the pneumatic nailer) about being willing to change. We are creatures of habit and likely 99% of us do not want to change because we have the old way down pat. Sometimes it's easier to stay with the old way rather than learn or change to the new way even though it's better, cheaper and easier in the long run. To each his own I guess.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Why change to PODs only in an attempt to chase the real thing? It'll never be as good and it will never be as cool. It's a classic setup up that works, you could scroll through menus and sub-menus or use 3 knobs on a tube amp accordingly and sound better. If the modelling and digital stuff sounded better more people would have them but most try it and move one taking a huge hit because it holds no resale value. A Prius will never outlast a classic, say a 1970's Cuda. The simplicity of a 52 Tele or 57 Les Paul will forever be cooler and hold it's value against a midi loaded Godin flavour of the month. The same guys that praise the high end modelling stuff like the AXE and Kemper just abandon it when the new version comes out, what's that say for longevity, usefulness and maintaining value? In this realm, this forum and it's 10K members, most of them seem to be about the old school, vintage or modern built on the old. Just look at what the emporium is selling, don't see many ZOOMs.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

LOL,

And as if by example.....


I guess everyone has this figured out already.


Again, I wonder how many of us have actually tried going direct as opposed to making their mind up based on second hand testimonials and old school resistance to change.

Meh, it keeps the cost of good modelers at a reasonable level.

By the way, my Dr Z is for sale.


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## james on bass (Feb 4, 2006)

I'd love to go direct. The reality is, every place we play is different. We don't always have a sound-guy, but for the most times that we do, every system is different. Many will only offer us one monitor mix.

My guitarist is using in-ears but with an amp. Would love to have the coin to switch over the entire band. Get a nice DI/Pre-amp pedal and have at it.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Not against the new but the old tried and true basics will always get you by just fine if not better without dependence on others. I've tried the POD's and the ZOOM's direct but it's far from my amp/pedalboard setup, the AXE FX is still a bit out of an affordable "to try" price range so I'll wait and happily play a tube amp.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________________


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

Everyone seems to be focusing on the POD and ZOOM lines. 

That's interesting. 
Personally I don not like those 2 brands, I use Digitech right now. That was an RP355 I used in the video.
Another interesting thing was I was thinking of blowing up my pedalboard for something of a Hybrid system:

A Pedal sized amp/preamp
Randall RG13 which is a solid state amp the size of a large pedal and has 3 channels.
or
AMT SS20 which is actually a small TUBE pedal with 3 channels for either output direct or guitar amp.

Why do I like direct to mixer so much? 

Mainly because for those that known the amazing pleasure and privilege of carrying a 2x12 amp or half stack up the fire escape stairs because the bars stage load in door is only accessible from the back alley, You'll know why

Ever had a drunk patron at a bar throw a shot glass THROUGH the speaker cone, because you don't play requests?
Right through the fabric, then through the cone. 

Then find out the house PA is fucked because the sound guy spilled his beer on it 3 months ago, so unload your P.A. out of the trailer or have to go to the local rental place at 8:30 pm and hope to god their open.

These are the pleasures of playing local, small town and modest touring, where nothing is as advertised or promised by the bar owner, or booking agent.

The simpler your set-up is, the faster it's up and running, the more time you have to correct problems, swap out speakers, make sure the guy paying you isn't going to stiff you, etc.

As for the sound.......
Personally I'm not chasing anyones sound, (except Billy Gibbons) so having a preset to "sound like the album" for me isn't going to happen
One last thought.....
I had a couple of guys come up to me and compliment our little band on how we were pretty good. I asked how did the guitar sound from front of house (no wireless so I can't walk-about) They said, very good and clear.
Then I told them I was going direct without an amp, They were shocked, and I could see the wheels turning and smoke forming and the inevitable question came: How is that possible?

That's the biggest reason right there: It's not that it's not acceptable: It is; But I'd dare say most guitarists don't know how.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I've tried the POD's and ZOOM's personally but not the Digitech. I did play with someone, it sounded terrible, who insisted on using one even though the rest of the band had grown up and started using real amps. He switched and plays a DRRI now with a great pedalboard to compliment.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

nkjanssen said:


> I've played big amps, small amps, modellers (including an AxeFX)... pretty much every possible iteration of getting my guitar signal to be heard. After 25 or so years of trying stuff, I've pretty much decided that I like a simple tube amp around 10-20 watts, with a few pedals. It's a setup that's easy, tactile and does everything I want my rig to do.
> 
> I can't think of any deficiency with my current rig that a modeller would remedy. I'm not fearful of technology or new things. It's just what I like.


And that's a reasonable response.

I wouldn't claim that modelers are better. I only maintain that they are a cost effective and viable alternative with real technical advantages. 

Also, IMO, the deeper you delve into going direct the easier and more effective it gets.

To clarify, going half way is more problematic. It works best if everyone goes direct as much as possible and if everyone uses IEMs.

I guess the way I try to look at it is, what is the impact to the audience, or more accurately, how can I get the best mix to the largest portion of the audience?


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2014)

james on bass said:


> I'd love to go direct. The reality is, every place we play is different. We don't always have a sound-guy, but for the most times that we do, every system is different. Many will only offer us one monitor mix.


I've been a modeller player exclusively for some 5+ years now. I bring an FRFR powered speaker just in case the venue can't support me going direct. I used to need it all the time but over the past two years I don't think I've used it even once on a proper club gig. We do this regular outdoor thing at a shopping area and I use it there, but that's just a raised platform and electricity, we provide all the back and front line gear. I still run direct, but because it's a wide open space I keep the FRFR powered speaker behind me and pointed up at me for a little extra monitor in my corner.

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nkjanssen said:


> I've played big amps, small amps, modellers (including an AxeFX)... pretty much every possible iteration of getting my guitar signal to be heard. After 25 or so years of trying stuff, I've pretty much decided that I like a simple tube amp around 10-20 watts, with a few pedals. It's a setup that's easy, tactile and does everything I want my rig to do.
> 
> I can't think of any deficiency with my current rig that a modeller would remedy. I'm not fearful of technology or new things. It's just what I like.


Go with what you like!

My living constraints have always made amps impossible for practice at home. Long before I was a modeller user I was a Palmer Direct Injection box user because I had to silence my amps at home if I wanted to play through them. Modellers made that setup even better and, in the last 5 years, have gone from being tolerable to being astounding. I also like all the buttons and tweaking and effects and crazy routing and stuff...

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Milkman said:


> Also, IMO, the deeper you delve into going direct the easier and more effective it gets.
> 
> To clarify, going half way is more problematic. It works best if everyone goes direct as much as possible and if everyone uses IEMs.


I support this opinion! Also: there's more out there than Zoom and Line6.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I saw in the new _GP_ that Radial has introduced a new amp attenuator...and it's a biggun!

[video=youtube;tcbxptnt7lA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcbxptnt7lA[/video]


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

One main point about modellers is that many have a setting for PA, amp or headphones, etc. that should be selected based upon your application. Perhaps they are voiced differently/levels altered for each specific use. I know that one of the times I used one it was set on PA when I was sending it through a combo amp and is sounded horrible. It sounded quite good when I switched to the amp setting (or whatever the other setting was called).


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

In the last band that I worked with full time as sound man in the mid 80s, I designed and built an almost mic-less system. We used a Stevenson 24 X 8 monitor mix for 6 separate monitor mixes through a variety of McCauley (Seattle) designed monitor cabs with JBL and Altec speakers and horns I had built specifically for each player. The mains were a Yamaha PM1000 32 X 4 X 4 into Martin single stacks with double bass bins.

I only used mics on an acoustic snare, high hat and cymbals because I hated the Roland drum sounds there. Also mics on the vocals, obviously.

For stage, I could make a happy custom mix for everyone and they could tweak their own mixes from the stage. For FOH, the mix was totally controllable with little significant bleed from the monitors.

Our guitar player used a Roland GR700 (?) into a Gallien Kruegar head and then direct to the sound system and monitors with no dedicated stage speaker. The joy for me as a sound guy was that I would rarely if ever have to touch the guitar on the mains because the guitar player was hearing pretty much the same thing from the same source as I was hearing out front and his adjustments for volume and tone always worked in the FOH mix the same way as in the monitor mix.

The advantages to direct injection are less equipment and more control in the mix. In short, working with direct instrument inputs and minimal mics on stage was a pleasure.


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## Chubba (Aug 23, 2009)

djmarcelca said:


> Ever had a drunk patron at a bar throw a shot glass THROUGH the speaker cone, because you don't play requests?
> Right through the fabric, then through the cone.


Damn! That's a hell of a throw! Thankfully, I've never had that misfortune...Great thread, I like ideas that help me travel lighter


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2014)

mhammer said:


> I saw in the new _GP_ that Radial has introduced a new amp attenuator...and it's a biggun!


That looks excellent!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

nkjanssen said:


> I've played big amps, small amps, modellers (including an AxeFX)... pretty much every possible iteration of getting my guitar signal to be heard. After 25 or so years of trying stuff, I've pretty much decided that I like a simple tube amp around 10-20 watts, with a few pedals. It's a setup that's easy, tactile and does everything I want my rig to do.
> 
> I can't think of any deficiency with my current rig that a modeller would remedy. I'm not fearful of technology or new things. It's just what I like.


I'm with you. I've gotten rid of most of my equipment, unecessary pedals, big amps, and now am just going to put together a very small pedal board, 3 pedals, and a small 1X12 combo 20 to 40 watts somewhere in that range. My needs are very simple. Modelers are fun to play with and I guess if you need the versatility they provide its an easy way to do it.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> One main point about modellers is that many have a setting for PA, amp or headphones, etc. that should be selected based upon your application. Perhaps they are voiced differently/levels altered for each specific use. I know that one of the times I used one it was set on PA when I was sending it through a combo amp and is sounded horrible. It sounded quite good when I switched to the amp setting (or whatever the other setting was called).


Yes, that's very true. In fact, using a modeler with a guitar amp sort of defeats the purpose. If you really must use a conventional amp, you're better off with a multi effects pedal or just a normal pedal board.

The idea is to REPLACE your amp, cab and pedalboard with these devices.

And yes, there's more out there than Zoom and Line 6. I'm sure people have good results with those, but I tried both and ultimately chose the Vox Tonelabs.

The price is well below what I would expect.


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