# Leslie, what should I do with my new Orpheus?



## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

No, not my orifice; I won't get advice about that here.
I just saved a Leslie Model 25 from being sent to the dump while visiting a Music Pastor about an old mixing board.
So, I now own my own Leslie Orpheus (from about 1971 it looks like). I have someone I know who owns her own hammond organ, but I don't have one. 
After being a proud Leslie owner for about an hour now, I haven't decided fully what to use it for. I am tempted to try guitar amp through it. 
All it has is a 6 pin input of some sort (probably to connect to some other preamp control module or an organ; I'm not sure).
Anyways, it came with no cable or external box controls. I can get take pictures, but my first step is to get advice from all of you Leslie experts that I have seen posting before. Should I be trying to make my own control box or something with a adapter to phone jack?


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

Yes, my Model 25 has a power amp. Of course, I have no idea if it is working or not. Perhaps it would need a cap job. I can't think of an way to test it before trying to get the connections problems solved. I guess, I will need a 6 -pin connector cord.

I got this site from old posts about Leslies on this forum:
http://www.theatreorgans.com/hammond/faq/mystery/mystery.html

It seems to talk about alternatives to buying that preamp, but I haven't really made full sense of it yet:

"Engineering your own system is actually a simple matter, once you can locate a 6-pin plug that is compatible with the one fitted to the amplifier (or buy a Leslie Cord). Pin 1 is signal ground, and pin 6 signal "hot". Any source capable of delivering over 6 V into a load of 2.5 kohm, or less, will be able to drive the Leslie amp to full power with the "console load resistor switch" set to "open". The switch also inserts an 8-ohm, 10 watt or 16-ohm 10 watt equivalent resistor across the input, which means that a 10-watt power amp could be used to drive the Leslie, with the level control at the right setting. This is the typical setup for many organs equipped with their own power amps. A small guitar amplifier, such as a Fender Champ would do fine. The speaker should be disconnected, and the switch set to "8 ohms". Don't try it with a large power amp, however; your Leslie will sound, and smell, very bad shortly after the input resistors burn up.
Input power (115 VAC) connects via pins 3 and 4. Pins 2 and 5 connect the 115-Volt A.C. coil of the tremolo relay, which is "fast" when off, and "slow" when on. Therefore, a D.P.S.T. switch connecting pin 2 and pin 3, and pin 4 to pin 5 will activate the relay; if you only want "fast" forget pins 2 and 5. (A simpler approach would be to make a direct connection from pins 4 and 5, and use a simple S.P.D.T. switch.)"

Any thoughts or experiences?


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

it appears from reading that, the first thing you need to find is the proper 6 pin connector. Maybe phone around any shops that work on Hammonds and Leslies, or I guess hit the net.

Then you should be able to drive it with a (no bigger than) 10 watt amp.

Should be great for home use.


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## Michelle (Aug 21, 2006)

Cool find Matt! Ya know? You could change the conn to RCA/phone jack, binding post/banana plugs, or something if you were going by the alternate pre-amp thing. You have the pin-out.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

Paul said:


> You need a pre-amp pedal, assuming your Model 25 has a power amp.
> 
> http://www.trekii.com/#LESLIE
> 
> ...


Ya, so, I'm not so interested in paying $400 for a solid state preamp for this thing.
I'd rather figure out a way to be able to connect this to my Champ or something.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

Wow, I just learned what a banana plug is. Thanks Michelle. Do you suppose that banana plugs would be the size of the pins?

So, I retrieved from this site some pics and schematics for what is in my Leslie:
http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~dairiki/hammond/leslie25/

The 6-pin cable from the organ plugs in to "Leslie Type 28 Cabinet Connector" box. The type 28 box contains the motor switching relay and brake circuitry, as well as a two-pin connector for either the speaker (if driven directly) or a (8 ohm, 16 ohm, or non-existant) dummy load resistor if the amp is used. Here are scans of the schematic, and of the underside of this box:
http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~dairiki/hammond/leslie25/type28.gif
http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~dairiki/hammond/leslie25/type28int.jpg

The "Leslie 25 Booster Amplifier" has a 6-pin plug on a short cable which plugs into the type 28 box. It contains a simple 20 watt amp. Here are scans of the schematic, and of the underside of the amp:
http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~dairiki/hammond/leslie25/leslie25amp.gif
http://alumnus.caltech.edu/~dairiki/hammond/leslie25/leslie25int.jpg

I imagine this info would be helpful. I figure I would try to connect my Champ to the Type 28 Cabinet connector box. However, wouldn't there need to be some sort of power supply to turn that leslie motor? I'm just thinking out loud so far...


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

Paul said:


> I have the genuine Leslie Combo preamp to go with my Leslie 147. It is a solid state device. I have yet to hear anyone say my guitar through a Leslie doesn't sound like a guitar through a Leslie should.
> 
> There are tube pre-amp pedals out there, for more than the $400 Trek unit. But don't forget the Leslie is NOT about tube amps. The Leslie is about loudspeakers moving air and the doppler effect.
> 
> ...


Ya, sorry. I didn't intend for that to be a slam at the device being Solid State. I am merely interested in trying to use this cabinet for something, and I likely won't spend hundreds of dollars for experimenting purposes unless it produces the most amazing sound that are unreachable using the amps that I have. 
I am curious about what sort of sound the built-in tube amp produces if possible.
Otherwise, I'm willing to hook one of my amps up to the P12N Jensen Driver and figure a way to power the motor that spins the bottom thingy.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

*My Pics*

Because I can never get pictures to appear here, you can see the pics of my Leslie on my blog here:
http://yeomansinstruments.blogspot.com/


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Well, now that you're wading into Leslie territory I think Ican give you a couple of tips....First off, I tend to agree with Pauls comments. Bypass the whole amp 6 pin until you decide how you wish to proceed. Since this is only a single speed Leslie, there isn't much need for the on/ff control anyway.
As for connecting the speaker to an amp, remember the P12N can realistically handle about 25-30 watts and due to age cone deterioration maybe less.
It's probably a good idea to pull the speaker and inspect it first. You may find tears or find that the cone has dropped from being face down for so many years. I wouldn't recommend attempting to connect up the 6 pin connector to something unless you're experienced with 120AC main voltages. There is the possibility of receiving a nasty shock if the work is done incorrectly. 
If you need anymore info you can contact me. There is a cool site if you want more information at www.captain-foldback.com




Paul said:


> Coool....
> 
> In the bottom left corner there is a white plug....that is likely the power for the motor. You can use an extension cord and plug it into the wall. Make sure that the motor is 117V. I am 99 44/100 sure that it is.
> 
> ...


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

Hey! Thanks Paul and NonReverb. I'm glad to hear from veteran Leslie users.

This is what I am thinking now:
Since the Leslie is mostly about the cabinet and the motor (and the model 25 only has the one 12" speaker and no horns), I think I will bypass most of the electronics and use the physical cabinet.

I'm thinking of connecting the 2 single wires from the Leslie motor through a switch (an extra SPDT footswitch that I removed from my crybaby) that I can put into a box on the floor and wiring a wall plug to that. Then, I could turn off and on the Leslie motor with my foot. I thought of rigging it up to some sort of switch in my mouth that I bite down on to activate but I like to live dangerously and like to run the risk of electrocuting my foot.

Then I could replace the P12N with a homeless(cabinetless) WGS British Classic Lead 12" speaker that I have and wire it to about 8' of speaker cable with a phone jack that could plug into any amp. The speaker can handle 80 watts RMS, so it would make it a pretty versatile Leslie style speaker cabinet.

I would try to make things so that everything could be switched back to stock quickly in case someone walks in my door with a Hammond organ at any given moment.
What do you guys think? Am I missing out by not trying to use the Leslie's power amp? Are there some better ideas out there? Thoughts?


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

oops, this is embarrassing, posted twice and can't figure out how to delete the post; only edit it.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Welcome to the wonderful world of Leslie speakers 
A couple of notes...the Jensen P12N is definitely NOT rated for 80 watts RMS.
Like I said before back in the day the 'N' designation meant it was rated for 50Watts. Most old speakers like that cannot even handle that anymore. Trust me...I've grenaded a couple of late 50's P12N's with 40 watts. The cones are usually brittle and the glue can be too. When this Leslie was brand new the amp was rated at 20 watts RMS so use that as a rule of thumb. 
If you have your heart set on switching the motor via a footswitch, be sure you put a fuse in line first...that way you won't electrocute yourself AND burn the house down :smile:



bcmatt said:


> Hey! Thanks Paul and NonReverb. I'm glad to hear from veteran Leslie users.
> 
> This is what I am thinking now:
> Since the Leslie is mostly about the cabinet and the motor (and the model 25 only has the one 12" speaker and no horns), I think I will bypass most of the electronics and use the physical cabinet.
> ...


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

nonreverb said:


> Welcome to the wonderful world of Leslie speakers
> A couple of notes...the Jensen P12N is definitely NOT rated for 80 watts RMS.
> Like I said before back in the day the 'N' designation meant it was rated for 50Watts. Most old speakers like that cannot even handle that anymore. Trust me...I've grenaded a couple of late 50's P12N's with 40 watts. The cones are usually brittle and the glue can be too. When this Leslie was brand new the amp was rated at 20 watts RMS so use that as a rule of thumb.
> If you have your heart set on switching the motor via a footswitch, be sure you put a fuse in line first...that way you won't electrocute yourself AND burn the house down :smile:


Ya, I think I'll put in the Classic Lead Speaker (which is 80W)so as to not blow that P12N.
Do you think a 3amp fuse would be appropriate? How do we figure that out?


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Well, the easiest way would be to put an ammeter in line with connector. I think you'll be ok with a 1 amp slo blo though. Remember to put a .01 cap across the two connectors of the motor to discharge the CEMF when the motor is shut off.



bcmatt said:


> Ya, I think I'll put in the Classic Lead Speaker (which is 80W)so as to not blow that P12N.
> Do you think a 3amp fuse would be appropriate? How do we figure that out?


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

nonreverb said:


> Well, the easiest way would be to put an ammeter in line with connector. I think you'll be ok with a 1 amp slo blo though. Remember to put a .01 cap across the two connectors of the motor to discharge the CEMF when the motor is shut off.


Oh Crap! I don't know what CEMF is! I was about to run down to get fuse holder so that it could be installed in the line. 
Is the cap (0.01uF?) brought in whenever and only when the power is switched off? What does this do?

Ok, so I guess I can still use the SPDT, right? One throw completes the circuit to the mains (through a fuse), and the other connects the one motor wire back to the other.

UPDATE
Ok, I'm back from a local electronics shop. (it sure is nice to be visiting the big city of Revelstoke where they actually have one). Now I have an in line fuse holder and a .01 uF cap. I'll start building after I'm done eating pizza.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

*Footswitch for Leslie Motor Working!!!*



Paul said:


> Am I the only one who can use Google around here???
> 
> http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/CEMF
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-electromotive_force


Oh Burn! I did try some generally fruitless Google searches at the time, and was disappointed with the amount I learned. But, I was in a hurry because I wanted to go buy a fuse holder before all the stores closed. I just made it. The guy at the store explained a bit about the point of the cap as well and scrounged one up to sell to me for $3 in addition to the $3 fuse holder (oh well). It makes perfect sense to me now what it does though.

I got the foot-switch completed. It's not the prettiest thing, but it is very solid and safe and it works.
You can see the pictures at my blog:
http://yeomansinstruments.blogspot.com/2008/03/footswitch-for-leslie-motor.html

Thanks for all the help guys!
I'll let you now how it sounds when I get back to my own town to try it out. I can install the new speaker there too. (I'm on holidays for a week and am visiting my parents right now).


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

If you want the full effect, find a motor stack from a later Leslie. That way you can have both tremolo and chorus:smile::smile::smile:



Paul said:


> If this works out the way it should, you will never be satisifed with a chorous pedal again. There is no substitute for moving air.
> 
> In the Cream reunion concert dvd from a year or three ago, there is a moment in Badge just before the bridge section where Clapton holds out a pregnant pause....and then hits the Leslie as he starts singing:
> 
> ...


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

BTW BCMatt after looking at my post, I realised that the cap is actually a .1 uF. Sorry, my mistake...Don't worry about it too much though. It's gonna work either way.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

Paul said:


> If this works out the way it should, you will never be satisifed with a chorous pedal again. There is no substitute for moving air.
> 
> In the Cream reunion concert dvd from a year or three ago, there is a moment in Badge just before the bridge section where Clapton holds out a pregnant pause....and then hits the Leslie as he starts singing:
> 
> ...


Very cool. I just looked for a clip of this on youtube. I can see the Leslies that he has behind him on stage in these videos. I can't wait to try this thing out. 

This is like the one time that I didn't bring a guitar or amp with me when on a trip to another town. (I felt it was a good opportunity to show my girlfriend that I care about her more than amps) I guess it is still good for the Leslie that I didn't, because otherwise I would never fit this Leslie in my little car for the ride home.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

nonreverb said:


> BTW BCMatt after looking at my post, I realised that the cap is actually a .1 uF. Sorry, my mistake...Don't worry about it too much though. It's gonna work either way.


Oh, haha. The guy at the shop almost sold me a 0.1 first, because he figured it work just as good, if not better. But then he found a .01 after some digging through an old yogurt container of random parts. It was still a new cap, but not in a package (and without a price), so it worked out to a bit more.

I'm pretty sure I have some spare .1 uF caps in my toolbox. Is it worth switching do you think?


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

nonreverb said:


> If you want the full effect, find a motor stack from a later Leslie. That way you can have both tremolo and chorus:smile::smile::smile:


You know, I do have a small 2-speed Leslie built in to an old Acetone (not tube) organ that I bought from Value Village a few years ago for $15. It is a spinning circular foam thing. I could potentially cannibalize that motor if it is strong enough, I always thought of building a separate Leslie out of pieces from that organ. I had tried guitar through the organ before (it has an input jack) but of course it wasn't great tone for a guitar and not worth hauling a whole organ around for Leslie effect with sub-par tone. So far, I have let that organ live.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Look at the large motor on the organ Leslie....if it looks the same as the one on the 25 then you can swap it out....there is however a tad more work hooking it up than using just a single speed one...




bcmatt said:


> You know, I do have a small 2-speed Leslie built in to an old Acetone (not tube) organ that I bought from Value Village a few years ago for $15. It is a spinning circular foam thing. I could potentially cannibalize that motor if it is strong enough, I always thought of building a separate Leslie out of pieces from that organ. I had tried guitar through the organ before (it has an input jack) but of course it wasn't great tone for a guitar and not worth hauling a whole organ around for Leslie effect with sub-par tone. So far, I have let that organ live.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

If you have it...use it:smile:



bcmatt said:


> Oh, haha. The guy at the shop almost sold me a 0.1 first, because he figured it work just as good, if not better. But then he found a .01 after some digging through an old yogurt container of random parts. It was still a new cap, but not in a package (and without a price), so it worked out to a bit more.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I have some spare .1 uF caps in my toolbox. Is it worth switching do you think?


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

Wow! So I tried it out yesterday when I got back to town. It sounds really cool.
It does sound so amazing and much better than any chorus or tremolo pedal.
I consider it as my largest and coolest pedal. 

My band was completely blown away and they love it. It does remind me of a Hammond style organ while ringing out thick long chords with lots of tube distortion. It seems to work great in some of our more bluesy styled songs. It will definitely get worked into some of our songs.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Congratulations! Once you've tried it, you'll never look back:smile:




bcmatt said:


> Wow! So I tried it out yesterday when I got back to town. It sounds really cool.
> It does sound so amazing and much better than any chorus or tremolo pedal.
> I consider it as my largest and coolest pedal.
> 
> My band was completely blown away and they love it. It does remind me of a Hammond style organ while ringing out thick long chords with lots of tube distortion. It seems to work great in some of our more bluesy styled songs. It will definitely get worked into some of our songs.


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