# Manners and Morals



## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

Keithb7 inspired me to start this thread.................what's your take???


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I like manners and morals. Most foks should.

Peace, Mooh.


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

I guess we might as well toss in (ala Aretha Franklin)........a little Respect....


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

RIFF WRATH said:


> I guess we might as well toss in (ala Aretha Franklin)........a little Respect....


Just a little bit ...


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Morals are unique to each person, IMO.

Manners and respect are another issue all together though. I try to practice both the best that I can.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

"Please, Thank You and Respect your Elders" that is what I most want to instill in my daughter. A little of that goes a long way and will never fail you. Seems to be something that has gone by the wayside these days. Common Courtesy should be a course taught in school. 

Paul, FWIW, I have never found you to be rude here. I think for the most part, people who come to places like these realise that there is quite alot lost in translation when having a discussion on the net. Those that don't get their nickers in a bunch and demand apologies for insults and affronts that never were...


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Paul said:


> I've been here 2 years, trust me, I've pissed off plenty of folks.:smile: My signature is enough to cause offence for some folks.


You should rent Religulous.


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

no way did I intend this thread to be "controversial".........it's just that I'm someone who was brought up in the "please & thankyou, excuse me, door opening ect" and I find those atributes lacking nowadays...........this can even apply to driving ettiquette...........the do unto others thing certainly predates christianity...........karma..........what goes around comes around.....in my mind some of those atributes are so rare today that when experienced it almost gives me pause.........(not menopause...lol)


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## Coustfan'01 (Sep 27, 2006)

I think manners are usually overrrated. I'm very honest and straightforward, and don't have much manners, and it seems to get me by pretty well. Of course sometimes people get their feelings hurt a bit, but I think the good far outweights the bad.


Morality is often a question culture/religion/etc , but I think a lot of it could/should be determined by logic like a mathematical theorem. Unfortunately, most people are too religious/sensitive/don't look at problems from the right perpective for that.


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## Michelle (Aug 21, 2006)

Didn't it used to be that you respected everyone as another human? That basic respect for a person, whether you know them or not, to be who they are and have a right to exist? Or maybe that's how it should be.

Disturbingly though recently, I have noticed that some people's paradigm is that; "You need to earn, (my), respect". And just how do you do that? Why they want you to grovel at their feet, kiss their ass.

Sorry, not unless you look like Cp. Jack Sparrow. hwopv


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

RIFF WRATH;178228.it's just that I'm someone who was brought up in the "please & thankyou said:


> Well I've been known to say "thank You" when someone drops a door in my face or "excuse me works" when someone bumps into me and keeps going.
> 
> It costs nothing to be polite. But what I want to know is WTF happened?
> 
> ...


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## MaxWedge (Feb 24, 2006)

Morals are fine. As long as they are not legislated.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

In our "me first" society, manners have come to be associated with weakness and submissiveness. In truth there is an incredible strength of character, grounding and self-confidence in demonstrating good manners.....


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

allthumbs56 said:


> In our "me first" society, manners have come to be associated with weakness and submissiveness. In truth there is an incredible strength of character, grounding and self-confidence in demonstrating good manners.....


I'd like to add something to this. I used to let other people's lack of manners/respect get the better of me, and this would often result in me returning this attitude in kind. I've found a great inner peace and calm by making an effort to treat others as I expect to be treated, even when they may be less than deserving by my estimation. The only exception to this are selfish/self-absorbed drivers. I don't drive, I walk, cycle or take public transit and have my whole life. The callous attitude many drivers have these days towards pedestrians is truly appalling. When my daughter was still being wheeled around in a stroller, the number of times drivers took their chances and gunned it to make a turn while we were crossing the road is outrageous. Why would someone EVER take that chance, especially during the winter? On a couple of occasoins other drivers spoke out on our behalf, but they were the exceptions. If your in care and control of a machine that weighs a couple of tons, be RESPONSiBLE!! It's very angering and frightening to see people driving with so little regard for the those around them.

Shawn


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Not sure about y'all but my two were brought up the same way I was and that was to be polite and have good manners. I do not see that a lot today. Especially with a lot of under 20's. 

Here is a great example. At our salon we post signs that say "please remove your boots before entering tanning room". We also supply at the front door slippers for all customers to wear. Very few people over the age of 30 have to be asked to not walk through the whole salon with dripped wet boots. But the young ones will just ignore it all. They have the opinion that nobody... NOBODY is going to tell them what to do and where they can do it.

Now to me, it is just common courtesy. I would not come to your house and walk through it with my winter boots on. Same thing in my opinion.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Paul said:


> I won't touch morality with a 10 foot pole, because you can't discuss morality without talking about the source of or authoirty over morality and moral bahaviours without considering religion.



It looks like you just typed that morality is only possible with religion.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> It looks like you just typed that morality is only possible with religion.


 
Just responding in general here, not to this post that responds to Paul's post - no it's not.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Paul said:


> Not gonna reply, the thread will get locked.:smile:


Why? You haven't had to drop your signature yet - have we gotten that uptight? 9kkhhd


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> It looks like you just typed that morality is only possible with religion.


While I think that they are oftentimes entwined, they are mutually exclusive. 

Morals are more specifically the rules by which a civilization exists.


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

yes they are.............now you guys have got me thinking of immoral loose women..................dang..............can anyone post some exemplifying pics??????.................pardon my manners.........lol


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> Why? You haven't had to drop your signature yet - have we gotten that uptight? 9kkhhd


I had forgot about it till today. We've gotten complaints about it in the past. Apparently, to Paul, it is important having those quotes plastered all over a guitar forum. I was kind of hoping out of respect for the forum and other members he would adjust his signature. Time will only tell...


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

Starbuck said:


> Well I've been known to say "thank You" when someone drops a door in my face or "excuse me works" when someone bumps into me and keeps going.
> 
> It costs nothing to be polite. But what I want to know is WTF happened?
> 
> ...


This is the same clip I posted about a few months back here: http://www.guitarscanada.com/Board/showthread.php?t=19008 I agree with what he says. He says it in a humourous way but it's still true.


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## geezer (Apr 30, 2008)

I think that manners are taught by parents and used to be enforced with more than is allowable now.I was buying groceries with my wife on Sunday and there were very long lineups at all the checkouts. A couple of rows over from us an old man (mid to late 80's) was having a hard time standing there with his basket of a few items. I walked over and invited him to go in front of us and as he graciously moved over this young guy behind me yells that's f-----g rude .Maybe it was, for not considering him,but it showed a lack of respect to the guy I was helping and everyone within earshot. I have no idea where I'm going with this but one one hand I felt like caving his head in with a tin of soup and on the other hand I felt good for helping someone.I guess I have good manners but am a bit haywire so I can go either way on the morals.


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

three cheers for you Geezer..........I frequently do stuff kinda like that and I usually get a grin back or a thank you but at the same time it's like the people aren't used to (me) other people being polite.......Ha...I recall about a year ago an employee at the Beer Store came right out and said that they've noticed that I am just about their most polite customer.........I really got a kick out of that........(little do they know that I'm alway's well behaved when I need my beer fix.........lol)............cheers


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

RIFF WRATH said:


> three cheers for you Geezer..........I frequently do stuff kinda like that and I usually get a grin back or a thank you but at the same time it's like the people aren't used to (me) other people being polite.......Ha...I recall about a year ago an employee at the Beer Store came right out and said that they've noticed that I am just about their most polite customer.........I really got a kick out of that........(little do they know that I'm alway's well behaved when I need my beer fix.........lol)............cheers


Wow - you go to the Beer Store enough that they can establish a trend on you? I am impressed :food-smiley-004:


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

What did I say to prompt this thread? Was it my comment about corporate greed in the Ticketmaster thread? :smile: Or teaching my kids to sneak treats into the movie theater ?kqoct

Either way, I think I have seen a change in my lifetime and I am only 37. On a large scale I think society in general is not taking the time learn to "do the right thing and treat others as you want to be treated". To me this has nothing to do with religion. This is basic moral that we should all be living by. Manners? Well I see alot more kids calling adults by their first names. Which 30 years ago and previous would be considered shocking. No Mr Barron or Sir. Not unless they are brown nosing and need something from you. 

Here is a simple example. I have 2 boys aged 10 and 12. I have taught them simple telephone manners. When they call anyone they say "hello this is Tom, may I please speak to Joe"? What a simple concept. Almost daily we get a call from one of their friends. We answer the phone..."Hello". They say "Hello". And we stay quiet....The kid calling doesn't know what to say next. They say hi. We say hi...We know it's one of the boys friends but we don't know who, or why they are calling. They pause awkwardly for a minute and finally say can I speak to Tom? We say sure but who is calling? After the conversation is over we have a reminder with our boys about phone manners and why they are used. We have a little laugh about their friend who called and was stumped for words. Not the poor kids fault. He's never been taught!

Many times from many parents we get comments like, oh your kids are so polite when they call. Yet they have not taken the time to teach their own kids and don't get it. This is simple telephone manners people.

When we have 10 year old kids over for a birthday party and they call me Keith I remind them that I am Mr Barron to them. They look at me like....Huh?

Anyone remember the Berenstein Bears books? Gramma made a cross stitch sign and hung it on the wall in the tree house. It read..."Manners Matter".
:smile:

Keith


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Paul said:


> Forget about time, *I* will tell.
> 
> I have no intention of changing my signature. If signatures offend people, they can disable the show signatures feature in their user CP. If _I_ offend people, they can put me on their ignore list, in which case my signature won't show up even if some other user quotes me in a subsequent post.
> 
> ...


Once again, as we grow we get more and more diverse. It's tough to be reading through every new users sig lines let alone the posts to make sure they do not cross any line we have established for the forum. The one sure way that has proven 100% effective is eliminating a certain practice. I was never much in favor of long winded signatures. taking up 14 lines in a post to list ones gear never turned me on either. At first, I had the signature lines very limited in terms of characters allowed. Got some complaints becuase a lot of people wanted to list their gear. Outside of a short quip or maybe even an external link to someones website I would have no probelm embracing some new rules for this particular issue.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

keithb7 said:


> When we have 10 year old kids over for a birthday party and they call me Keith I remind them that I am Mr Barron to them. They look at me like....Huh?


I wonder if this may actually have something to do with the Simpsons and Bart always calling Homer by his first name?

FWIW my kid's friends have always called me by my last name or "Mr. B." if they're more familiar. 

AlthoughI have called several sets of inlaws by their first names, the remaining parents of my childhood friends are still "Mr." and "Mrs." - even though I'm solidly into my 50's. Most have asked that I call them by their first names, but I don't - as a sign of my respect and affection for them.


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## MaxWedge (Feb 24, 2006)

Paul said:


> But isn't legislating morality a big part of the Criminal Code? Especially when it comes to criminalizing sexual behaviours.


There is a big difference between criminal and immoral behaviour. A criminal can and most likely be immoral. But to use morality as a reason, or worse, an excuse for legislating law.....

Further if you can't understand rape, sexual assault are not about "sexual behaviour" then you have missed the point.


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## Coustfan'01 (Sep 27, 2006)

Paul said:


> It is now legal for women to go topless in Ontario. It is illegal for anyone to generously apply sunscreen the front of that topless woman.


Signature material right there!


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## MaxWedge (Feb 24, 2006)

Paul said:


> I didn't mention crimes of violence, you did.
> 
> You left this open for interpretation. Didn't you.
> 
> ...


Again. A preception of who's morality.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Nice day out today. Think might rain,... or storm,... or maybe a remote chance of a meteor shower,... or just a rousing 9.1 tremour?


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Wowie!! It's been a long, long cold @#*$ing winter, and we've got a ways to go yet. I'm sending everyone a "cyber six pack" to chill out with. Feel free to redeem this at your local Beer Store (some charges may apply).

"Peace and love and all that other good $hit"-- Jimi Hendrix

Shawn :food-smiley-004:


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Robert, Nice to see your already enjoying your "cyber six pack". Cheers good Sir. LOL


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## MaxWedge (Feb 24, 2006)

thanx dude the six pack will go a fair ways to making the day smoother. sdsre


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## Luke98 (Mar 4, 2007)

I hold the door for folks behind me, have gotten some thank you's, and always thank the person who holds the door for me.

Karma dude, karma.


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## geezer (Apr 30, 2008)

I think like the majority of people, that you set your own moral standards like not stealing or killing innocent people or beating animals for instance,and as long as your not hurting anyone you should be good to go.As far as loose woman go I think I'm not the only one who has heard last call and figured what the hell .I would rate most men as loose (at least young unattached men.)so how can morals differ due to what sex you are?


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

so franks "stolen" thread is gone? how did that come about? funniest thing ive seen here in a while.


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## geezer (Apr 30, 2008)

how many people who consider themselves to have high moral standards,look at websites of personal interest while being paid to work.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

geezer said:


> how many people who consider themselves to have high moral standards,look at websites of personal interest while being paid to work.


I don't look at the site at work. I look at it at home.

You could make a case that all laws are morality based--even ones that aren't obviously so. But that might get this thread closed. (As it would involve politics--and probably religion.)


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

fraser said:


> so franks "stolen" thread is gone? how did that come about? funniest thing ive seen here in a while.


I must have missed that. Yeah, Franky is hilarious at times. Intentionally? I'm not sure, hilarious anyway.


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

Thanks for the cyber beer.......but those yo-yo's screwed up .......they gave me light beer..................dang


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Not sure about y'all but my two were brought up the same way I was and that was to be polite and have good manners. I do not see that a lot today. Especially with a lot of under 20's.


I honestly sometimes feel like my generation was one of the last ones to be bought up with any manners. I am 32. At my job, there are always new highschool kids each year. I can't believe the deterioration I have seen in not only manners, but in work ethic. 2 things that were DRILLED into my head when I was growing up. It really makes me wonder what some parents are up to. I would have NEVER got away with acting the way some of these people act when I was younger. I would have never even thought about it.

I am shocked by anyone who thinks manners aren't important. They are an important part of a bigger issue of overall attitude. I see bad manners, lack of respect and horrible work ethic. All these issues are related IMO. The most disturbing thing I see nowadays is an unwarranted sense of entitlement. Having being brought up the way I was brought it, it's hard for me to look past upbringing as a main culprit with these issues.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

torndownunit said:


> I honestly sometimes feel like my generation was one of the last ones to be bought up with any manners. I am 32. At my job, there are always new highschool kids each year. I can't believe the deterioration I have seen in not only manners, but in work ethic. 2 things that were DRILLED into my head when I was growing up. It really makes me wonder what some parents are up to. I would have NEVER got away with acting the way some of these people act when I was younger. I would have never even thought about it.
> 
> I am shocked by anyone who thinks manners aren't important. They are an important part of a bigger issue of overall attitude. I see bad manners, lack of respect and horrible work ethic. All these issues are related IMO. The most disturbing thing I see nowadays is an unwarranted sense of entitlement. Having being brought up the way I was brought it, it's hard for me to look past upbringing as a main culprit with these issues.



I was reading an article on this very subject a few weeks back. The "me" generation and the way advertisers have changed the whole scheme of things. When I read some of the tactics it ringed true for me. Things like "treat yourself" and "you deserve it" and "do it for yourself". All these ads are telling people hey, you deserve the best and you deserve it now, right now. Never mind working for it or trying to save money for it, just get it NOW.

I think it has been very effective because I have never in my life seen people with so many credit cards. I remember my kids getting mail from banks when they were 17 or so. They give them these credit cards with teh $500 or maybe $1000 limit and off they go to buy the cell phones and iPods etc etc. No idea whatsover how they will pay for them or the monthly cell phone bill.

We are breeding a generation of debt holders and we better be careful what we are doing or it will all come crashing down. Look what is happening in the States. It's this very thing that has caused it. Lending to people that simply cannot afford to pay it back.


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## Coustfan'01 (Sep 27, 2006)

torndownunit said:


> I am shocked by anyone who thinks manners aren't important. They are an important part of a bigger issue of overall attitude.I see bad manners, lack of respect and horrible work ethic. All these issues are related IMO.


 I just have a big problem with people putting form over substance. To me it's a lot more important to really respect someone(being honest, helping someone in need, etc.) than to have a nice repertoire of politeness formulas.

You can also relate bad manners to a lot of pragmatic people...


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Coustfan'01 said:


> I just have a big problem with people putting form over substance. To me it's a lot more important to really respect someone(being honest, helping someone in need, etc.) than to have a nice repertoire of politeness formulas.
> 
> You can also relate bad manners to a lot of pragmatic people...


You can be who ever you want to be. As long as its done with politeness. A rude person is just some one that lacks the intellectual capability to deal with a particular situation. Rude is easy. Politeness sometimes can be a real challenge.
We've all been there at one time or another.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Paul said:


> I'll stay away from the economy, because that gets threads locked.....instant gratification and entitlement, I think I can stay safe with that:
> 
> Anyone remember the Irish Sweepstakes? I recall my father getting tickets from a friend of a friend....we'd keep the ticket under the shelf paper in the kitchen cupboard and wait for MONTHS until the draw. Even though lotteries and sweepstakes were not yet legal in Ontario, every newspaper printed the winning numbers. The next lottery I remember was the Olympic Lottery to raise money for Montreal '76. Again, they sold tickets for months before the draw. You had to wait.
> 
> ...


It's a real sad testimony of where we have come from and where we have currently arrived.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Yeah, the media and advertisers have been fostering a sense of entitlement, haven't they.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

My mother-in-law has been a banker for 30 odd years. We were talking about the current economic state of things, and she said something I found very interesting. In high school we teach, language, math, science, history, computers, shop, art, business, gym and music, but nothing about personal finance. This seems to be the biggest issue we're facing today. Couple a child-like sense of personal finance with an unrealistic sense of entitlement, and I don't think all the economic stimuli in the world is going to save us from future economic/sociological failures. Manners and morals included. Politesse and responsibility/accountability are important tools by which a civilized society functions. In my personal viewpoint, morality is guided by responsibility/accountability. If I'm engaged in amourous behavior in front of a child in public, I stop. Not because of religion or a community standard I find archaic, but because I'm accountable and responsible to that child and his/her family's discretion. It's not the law, it's respect. A sense that one belongs to a community and is accountable to it's citizens, is where the fragile seed of respect grows. If a young person doesn't feel a connection to or responsible to their community, a moral compass with manners to boot, is a tall order. Gets back to spending time with one's children, having dinner as a family etc.

Shawn


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## Luke98 (Mar 4, 2007)

Paul said:


> I hate it when people hold the door for me.....they always time it so that I have to hustle just a little bit so I don't have to make them wait. I'm also just conspiracy minded enough to believe that they then expect me to hold the next door open for them, which means they are now in line ahead of me at the bank machine. I'm no farther ahead, AND I had to run a few steps!!!


But they were still through the door first if they held the door for you, it just saves you having a door shut in your face.



I work at a Tim Hortons. 75% of people don't go out of their way to be polite. It's not about age, the older ones are the same, so people who complain can't always be pulling the "These teenagers are all assholes, and have no manners!" card.

It's every age group.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Rugburn said:


> My mother-in-law has been a banker for 30 odd years. We were talking about the current economic state of things, and she said something I found very interesting. In high school we teach, language, math, science, history, computers, shop, art, business, gym and music, but nothing about personal finance. This seems to be the biggest issue we're facing today. Couple a child-like sense of personal finance with an unrealistic sense of entitlement, and I don't think all the economic stimuli in the world is going to save us from future economic/sociological failures. Manners and morals included. Politesse and responsibility/accountability are important tools by which a civilized society functions. In my personal viewpoint, morality is guided by responsibility/accountability. If I'm engaged in amourous behavior in front of a child in public, I stop. Not because of religion or a community standard I find archaic, but because I'm accountable and responsible to that child and his/her family's discretion. It's not the law, it's respect. A sense that one belongs to a community and is accountable to it's citizens, is where the fragile seed of respect grows. If a young person doesn't feel a connection to or responsible to their community, a moral compass with manners to boot, is a tall order. Gets back to spending time with one's children, having dinner as a family etc.
> 
> Shawn


Ya know Rug, that was really well said...... Thanks for that.

Two little stories today ...... 

Story #1

I was at the local hospital for some annual tests. While we're doign that, the imaging person told me about her co-worker's husband, who recently refused the latest GM early-retirement buyout because those GM management bast**ds were gonna make HIM pay the income tax on the package..... oh the nerve of them corporate SOBS..... 

Story #2

Out for a noon walk and in front of me a lady stops to greet a second lady who is pushing a baby carriage as I approach lady#1 (term applied loosely) notices that in the baby carriage is a 12-pack of empties and asks where the baby is. "Oh she's home sleeping. It's the only time I get to run out and do stuff. Thank gawd the Liquer Store sells singles". Essentially, the mother is using the carriage to transport her emplties to the Beer Store around the corner and then back to the LCBO with the change from the empties to buy single beer cans ..... while her baby sleeps.

Two different situations involving two different people from two different walks of life. The commonality is that they both lack common sense, responsibility, and accountability....... and they both have children ....... who will learn from their parents what to expect out of life as they grow up.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Luke98 said:


> I work at a Tim Hortons. 75% of people don't go out of their way to be polite. It's not about age, the older ones are the same, so people who complain can't always be pulling the "These teenagers are all assholes, and have no manners!" card.
> 
> It's every age group.


The problem is the current batch of young people are learning from the generations preceding them. And things continue to get worse, and are at such a bad point now.

I have friends who have been teaching for 15 years, and they can't believe what they are seeing in the schools right now. What I see on the streets is worse than ever, and what they see in their classrooms is worse than ever. There are 14 years olds doing coke on school grounds, and then committing random acts of violence around the school.

I am 32 as mentioned, so not old enough to be a 'grumpy' dude picking on younger kids. Things HAVE gotten way worse in the last 15 years. And the younger generations ARE getting worse.

I have worked in a job for the last 7 years where I get a front row seat. It would be crazy to give these kids, or the parents raising them any kind of 'by'. They are living in a world where they can do what the want, and not get any repercussions from it.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Once again, as we grow we get more and more diverse. It's tough to be reading through every new users sig lines let alone the posts to make sure they do not cross any line we have established for the forum. The one sure way that has proven 100% effective is eliminating a certain practice. I was never much in favor of long winded signatures. taking up 14 lines in a post to list ones gear never turned me on either. At first, I had the signature lines very limited in terms of characters allowed. Got some complaints becuase a lot of people wanted to list their gear. Outside of a short quip or maybe even an external link to someones website I would have no probelm embracing some new rules for this particular issue.


Sig lines are a nice way to get to know someone. My feeling is that sig lines are a way that we can celebrate our diversity. I'm of the opinion that diversity isn't intolerance of everything but acceptance of everyone and their beliefs (or lack thereof) and their political opinions. Were I come from tolerance is just good manners. 

I'm one of the (many) people who are disappointed b the new rules of discussion. Sure I come here mainly to talk guitars, but sometimes it's nice to talk about real life with people you know on the forum. Real life is dirty,messy and sometimes there is no common ground. I'd like it if our forum continued to reflect that.

Matt


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

mrmatt1972 said:


> I'm one of the (many) people who are disappointed b the new rules of discussion. Sure I come here mainly to talk guitars, but sometimes it's nice to talk about real life with people you know on the forum. Real life is dirty,messy and sometimes there is no common ground. I'd like it if our forum continued to reflect that.
> 
> Matt


Yeah but the complaints and fighting that happen as a result can really be a pain for the mods to have to deal with and maybe take their concentration and focus away from what this site is really supposed to be about. 
I think the solution that was offered (the separate social groups) is a good one.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mrmatt1972 said:


> I'm one of the (many) people who are disappointed b the new rules of discussion. Sure I come here mainly to talk guitars, but sometimes it's nice to talk about real life with people you know on the forum. Real life is dirty,messy and sometimes there is no common ground. I'd like it if our forum continued to reflect that.
> Matt


Me too Matt. I didn't often climb up on my soapbox, but I really felt that this place was unique in that I could come here primarily to talk guitars with my "friends", but still occasionally chew some controversial fat "between sets". 

I miss that, and I'm ticked that a few had to ruin it for all of us. Like some, I've thought of using my signature to get around this - but then the Mods would end up having to prohibit signatures for everyone ........and I respect our community and the Mods too much to play silly games like that.


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## Luke98 (Mar 4, 2007)

torndownunit said:


> The problem is the current batch of young people are learning from the generations preceding them. And things continue to get worse, and are at such a bad point now.
> 
> I have friends who have been teaching for 15 years, and they can't believe what they are seeing in the schools right now. What I see on the streets is worse than ever, and what they see in their classrooms is worse than ever. There are 14 years olds doing coke on school grounds, and then committing random acts of violence around the school.
> 
> ...


Yeah. Everyones getting ruder. Look at people on the highways. It's the new Busy busy busy nature of life forcing everyone to feel like they need to get right here right now.

It's all Stress. 

Everybody! CHILL OUT! :smilie_flagge17:


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

allthumbs56 said:


> I miss that, and I'm ticked that a few had to ruin it for all of us. Like some, I've thought of using my signature to get around this - but then the Mods would end up having to prohibit signatures for everyone ........and I respect our community and the Mods too much to play silly games like that.



I am glad you pointed out the fact that a few bad apples is the reason none of us can enjoy some fat chewing. To be honest, I miss it a lot myself.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I am glad you pointed out the fact that a few bad apples is the reason none of us can enjoy some fat chewing. To be honest, I miss it a lot myself.


Yeah, bad apples... I respect your decision even if I wish you hadn't had to make it. It really comes down to manners. Name calling isn't good manners, flaming isn't good manners. Having rational discourse with others shows respect and is good manners. No one says we need to agree all the time, but we should at least make the effort to be reasonable. Perhaps if we all promise to be good we can revoke the new rules.

:smile:

One can only hope.

Matt


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Yeah, bad apples... I respect your decision even if I wish you hadn't had to make it. It really comes down to manners. Name calling isn't good manners, flaming isn't good manners. Having rational discourse with others shows respect and is good manners. No one says we need to agree all the time, but we should at least make the effort to be reasonable. Perhaps if we all promise to be good we can revoke the new rules.
> 
> :smile:
> 
> ...


You never know. We whined enough to get the emporiums changed....... 

*Up the Whinos *:food-smiley-004:

(or is that "Whiners"?)


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Another thing that is worthy of mention is the whole concept of "political correctness". Political correctness can suck it. I'm not saying we should all talk like ******* hillbillies, but political correctness as a whole has just grown out of proportion. I call my "native American" friends "Indians" and they sure as hell don't give a damn.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

noobcake said:


> Another thing that is worthy of mention is the whole concept of "political correctness". Political correctness can suck it. I'm not saying we should all talk like ******* hillbillies, but political correctness as a whole has just grown out of proportion. I call my "native American" friends "Indians" and they sure as hell don't give a damn.


I call my Native Canadian friends by their names...  I work on a reserve school, and yeah, many do call themselves Indian, but there is a movement to get people in the community and in the rest of the country to call them Anishnabe - the real name of their tribe. Nishnab for short. That's what I try to say to - out of respect.

I agree that political correctness is a little ridiculous. I grew up in the late 80s when PC was the rage. Lip service isn't a real change of attitude and undersatnding.

i think I'm heading into dangerous waters here and am going
kkjwpw
so I'll stop.


Paul, thanks for the Osmands, really :smile:


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Sig lines are a nice way to get to know someone. My feeling is that sig lines are a way that we can celebrate our diversity. I'm of the opinion that diversity isn't intolerance of everything but acceptance of everyone and their beliefs (or lack thereof) and their political opinions. Were I come from tolerance is just good manners.
> 
> I'm one of the (many) people who are disappointed b the new rules of discussion. Sure I come here mainly to talk guitars, but sometimes it's nice to talk about real life with people you know on the forum. Real life is dirty,messy and sometimes there is no common ground. I'd like it if our forum continued to reflect that.
> 
> Matt


I agree Matt, while I occasionaly have a guitar related question or two and i do read all I can in all the sections for my own edification, it's nice to take a break and talk about "issues". I guess in that we are all fans of music and musicality it is common ground and you get to "know" for lack of a better word certain users and what they have to say.

Some things are very funny (I can't believe Franky's stolen thread was toasted) some things can be controversial, but yeah most of it is real life opinion. It's too bad that some folks take themselves so seriously that Gord forbid your views are contrary to theirs. I've always been a BIG proponant of "If you don't like it, don't look, listen, read" whatever. Not, If I don't like it, no-one should talk about it. Although I also understand the PITA factor must have been huge for the mods Just my two cents. Happy Friday All! 
Cheers
Lisa


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Paul said:


> You could learn from Alan, Jay, Wayne, Merrill and Donny.


I'm sure you meant "We"


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...while i have my own code of behavior, as many of us do, i am loathe to judge and/or discriminate against those who have a different code of behavior, due to cultural, religious, racial, social forces, or just plain ignorance. all of my own behaviors were learned - i wasn't born with an innate knowledge of good manners.

-dh


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

noobcake said:


> Another thing that is worthy of mention is the whole concept of "political correctness". Political correctness can suck it. I'm not saying we should all talk like ******* hillbillies, but political correctness as a whole has just grown out of proportion. I call my "native American" friends "Indians" and they sure as hell don't give a damn.


...i think your views, and the views of most people, with regard to political correctness are misguided and misinformed. but going down that road is contrary to the rules that have been set here.

-dh


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

*How appropriate*

This just in:

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/ab...e&newsitemid=CTVNews/20090227/disguest_090227


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...i think your views, and the views of most people, with regard to political correctness are misguided and misinformed. but going down that road is contrary to the rules that have been set here.
> 
> -dh


How so? I would very much like to know why you believe that my views are misguided.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Paul said:


> You could learn from Alan, Jay, Wayne, Merrill and Donny.
> 
> (sadly I typed all their names from memory.)


That looked like 5 Elvis`s on stage


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Starbuck said:


> I agree Matt, while I occasionaly have a guitar related question or two and i do read all I can in all the sections for my own edification, it's nice to take a break and talk about "issues". I guess in that we are all fans of music and musicality it is common ground and you get to "know" for lack of a better word certain users and what they have to say.
> 
> Some things are very funny (I can't believe Franky's stolen thread was toasted) some things can be controversial, but yeah most of it is real life opinion. It's too bad that some folks take themselves so seriously that Gord forbid your views are contrary to theirs. I've always been a BIG proponant of "If you don't like it, don't look, listen, read" whatever. Not, If I don't like it, no-one should talk about it. Although I also understand the PITA factor must have been huge for the mods Just my two cents. Happy Friday All!
> Cheers
> Lisa


Maybe some of you senior members can recall the huge debacle we had with that smoking thread. This is going back a ways but essentially one of the members got so upset he left, but before he did he deleted about 200 threads and made a mess of the whole board. Thats one of the reasons we had to adopt the no deleting posts and threads rule. I have had to learn over the years that not everyone looks at things the way I do. I have always been the type that never tries to convince the other person that my point is the only one. I present my case the best I can and let it be. My best friend, who I have sat and debated a thousand issues with almost every Sunday night for too many years to mention are polar opposites on many issues. Religious, political and you name it. I love the guy more than any man should admit about another. I respect his opinion and would never call him stupid for holding to it. I have tried to pursuad him, sure. But he is as entitled to his opinion as I am to mine.

I see no reason whatsoever why I should not extend the same courtesy to anyone here.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

> Wintario was every two weeks, and had a 30 minute TV show for the draw, hosted by Faye Dance and some guy I can't name right now. Lottario went weekly, Lotto 6/49 twice a week.....the wait times drop.


ahh yes- faye dance. thats when i started to play with myself.

i dont know why pauls signature would be an issue.

im not very "politically correct" in the real world, but i do have manners-
depending on your upbringing, culture and experience, manners, morals and political correctness are mutually exclusive. they arent the same thing.
sometimes its best to just keep ones mouth shut.


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

fraser said:


> ahh yes- faye dance. thats when i started to play with myself.
> 
> i dont know why pauls signature would be an issue.
> 
> ...


True that, the basic rule of thumb is to just "think about what you're saying before you open your pie hole". If more people stuck to that rule, there would be a significantly lesser number of problems/confrontations related to "bad manners" in this world.


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## Luke98 (Mar 4, 2007)

noobcake said:


> True that, the basic rule of thumb is to just "think about what you're saying before you open your pie hole". If more people stuck to that rule, there would be a significantly lesser number of problems/confrontations related to "bad manners" in this world.


kqoct...mission accomplished...
That might be considered political however, so, moving on.


How many of you say thank you to, for example, the employee at tim horton's after they give you a coffee? How many of you feel you shouldn't have to? Do you tip? Why do you tip or why don't you?


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Personally, I always say thank you, but I feel no need to tip, especially at a Tim's. If I were to go to an actual restaurant though, I always tip the waiters / waitresses quite handsomely.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

noobcake said:


> Personally, I always say thank you, but I feel no need to tip, especially at a Tim's. If I were to go to an actual restaurant though, I always tip the waiters / waitresses quite handsomely.


Mostly ditto--I tip at restaurants according to the level of service I receive. I take a tip into account when considering the cost of eating out at a sit down restaurant--whether it's a cheap, casual one or a fancy expensive one.

I've not tipped in extreme cases, and tipped quite well in extreme cases that were extremely good.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Paul said:


> I don't thank when I'm the customer.....it should be the other way around.


Well some servers are very thankful--others are rude.

For dietary reasons, I may not be an easy customer--so when they're helpful--I thank them.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

at tim hortons, yes i tip- i just give a twoonie for an xtra large coffee. i also tip anytime im drinking in a bar. i even tip small change at the grocery store checkout. i always say good day, please, thank you, all that. 
people are freaked out by me if they dont know me, so i do my best to be extra friendly and polite..
on the flip side, i get folks going out of there way to piss me off. i ride a bus to work, and its mostly all the same people. we smile at each other and say hi and stuff. once in a while a new person will be sitting there staring at me, ive had people just approach me and start a fight. ive never been thrown off a bus- 
im not really great at standing in lines, or even hanging out in places where theres lots of people, i find that if the people i see every day know and like me, any troubles i cause are not considered my fault.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Luke98 said:


> kqoct...mission accomplished...
> That might be considered political however, so, moving on.
> 
> 
> How many of you say thank you to, for example, the employee at tim horton's after they give you a coffee? How many of you feel you shouldn't have to? Do you tip? Why do you tip or why don't you?



I Always say thanks and generally leave a twoonie for a large coffee. 

How many of you get pissed at the (usually) woman in front of you searching her change purse for "exact" change? May not be to most folk, but I think it's bad manners to rummage for that one penny when there is a giant line up. ESPECIALLY in a drive thru! have yer money ready for heavens sake!


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## Luke98 (Mar 4, 2007)

Starbuck said:


> I Always say thanks and generally leave a twoonie for a large coffee.
> 
> How many of you get pissed at the (usually) woman in front of you searching her change purse for "exact" change? May not be to most folk, but I think it's bad manners to rummage for that one penny when there is a giant line up. ESPECIALLY in a drive thru! have yer money ready for heavens sake!


I work at Tims, and this is every eighth customer. People ordering a coffee at the speaker, then adding a sandwich and a soup at the window Tend to annoy me. There's also the odd custo mer that will get To the window or counter and reach into his pocket and pull out a big sticky pile of change, then make the employee count it, generally be an asshole, and then take his change back. One reason I tip are because I know the staff and their situations. I know several single mothers working there making 7.75$ an hour, one with 5 kids... But I tip everywheres.


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## Michelle (Aug 21, 2006)

Luke98 said:


> ......
> How many of you say thank you to, for example, the employee at tim horton's after they give you a coffee? How many of you feel you shouldn't have to? Do you tip? Why do you tip or why don't you?


I always tip at Tim's, not a lot, but $1.25 for a small black, so that's like an 11c tip. But it USED to be every day so it adds up and the same one every day. And I always say thanks, unless the server is a total crab, and always wish them a great day. I tip them because they smile and say hi and know what I want.

Christmas time, I emptied my purse & pockets of all the change I had, probably close to $10, shoulda seen the look on their faces when I dumped that on the counter and said; "Merry Christmas", not very pc of me. :smile:

Now, at a different location, they are crabby to bikers, so I don't bother with a coffee when I meet all the other bad-ass bikers, who should be riding instead of hanging at Tim's, only if there was no snow, I could ride, I got nothing to do and can't ride...... arrrrrrgh!


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Paul said:


> I don't thank when I'm the customer.....it should be the other way around.


In any transaction, both sides win. What could possibly be wrong with giving something a little extra that is so cheap as a simple "Thank you"?

Things like that keep us out of the trees.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Paul said:


> When everybody is thanked for everything, it becomes meaninless.



I also apply this to things like tipping in restaraunts. If I get poor service I tip appropriately or not at all. I hate that tips in restaraunts are something that has come to be expected and not earned. I have been in restaraunts where I've gotten exceptional service and have not only left 30 to 40% tips but have gone out of my way to let management know how great the service was. I don't tip bad waitresses but that doesn't mean I keep the money. I just make sure the good ones get it.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

noobcake said:


> How so? I would very much like to know why you believe that my views are misguided.



...it is simply not possible to go there without getting political.

i will go this far: i think most claims of so-called "political correctness" are a means to give certain people a license to be insensitive to certain minorities.

if we get in trouble for this, i'm blaming you.

kkjuw

-dh


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...it is simply not possible to go there without getting political.
> 
> i will go this far: i think most claims of so-called "political correctness" are a means to give certain people a license to be insensitive to certain minorities.
> 
> ...


Putting it all together ......

We've become a society loathe to hand out thanks but quick to hand out blame.

From my nutshell to yours :smile:


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## geezer (Apr 30, 2008)

I always say please and thank you automatically and don't feel the need to justify to myself whether they deserve it or not.


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

maybe a bit off.........recently read a thread on a site for drums where buddy stated that at the coffee/donut drive through he asked what the cost was for the vehicle behind him cost, and paid the bill...............and left with a big grin.............on todays local CTV affiliate there also was a clip of a young chap (clean cut) who for the past 8 years wanders down town(s)and hugs everyone he 'bumps" into on the street.........says seldom gets a poor reaction and it makes him feel good..............seratonum (sp) can be a nice rush......


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

RIFF WRATH said:


> maybe a bit off.........recently read a thread on a site for drums where buddy stated that at the coffee/donut drive through he asked what the cost was for the vehicle behind him cost, and paid the bill...............and left with a big grin.............on todays local CTV affiliate there also was a clip of a young chap (clean cut) who for the past 8 years wanders down town(s)and hugs everyone he 'bumps" into on the street.........says seldom gets a poor reaction and it makes him feel good..............seratonum (sp) can be a nice rush......



I'm not a huggy feely person. Although good in theory I don't know how favorably I'd react to a guy I don't know coming up and hugging me on the street. Could be fist to cuffs.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

guitarman2 said:


> I'm not a huggy feely person. Although good in theory I don't know how favorably I'd react to a guy I don't know coming up and hugging me on the street. Could be fist to cuffs.


Yeah, it may make that dude feel good but just creeps everyone else out.


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...it is simply not possible to go there without getting political.
> 
> i will go this far: i think most claims of so-called "political correctness" are a means to give certain people a license to be insensitive to certain minorities.
> 
> ...


I think that political correctness encompasses much more than just racial terms. The "aboriginal-indian" thing stated in my previous post was just a small example of that particular aspect.

I dislike political correctness because all it does is restrict the means of expression that we have as people by blindly making taboos out of certain terms that are actually not derogatory at all. 

In a nutshell, political correctness is a big web of crap that restricts the right to free expression. Once again, this isn't to say that we should all bad mouth one other incessantly. 

The world is becoming too damn sensitive and political correctness is a product of that ridiculous sensitivity. The only code of conduct that we should bind ourselves to is the "golden rule" that has been taught to us by our folks: "respect one another".

In that regard, I believe political correctness is not about respect at all, it's about saving one's own ass by not mistakenly using terms that may potentially hurt the person that one is talking to. Yet, realistically, besides a select few idiots in society that get offended over the slightest things, most people tend to find speaking in a "political correct" manner quite awkward. 

For that same reason, my black friend does not particularly enjoy being called an "african american" because when someone calls him that, he knows that, that person is going out of his/her way just to be politically correct. For god's sake, we're all human, let's just treat each other humanly and not get hung up on these stupid terms.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

noobcake said:


> I think that political correctness encompasses much more than just racial terms. The "aboriginal-indian" thing stated in my previous post was just a small example of that particular aspect.
> 
> I dislike political correctness because all it does is restrict the means of expression that we have as people by blindly making taboos out of certain terms that are actually not derogatory at all.
> 
> ...



...that would mean referring to your friend as a person. a human being. so-called "political correctness", which really is nothing more than *sensitivity*, is a step toward that. i love canada, but i am a person first, and a canadian second. the fact that i am a white, english speaking, heterosexual male is also secondary.

the mystery (and its really not much of a mystery at all) is why people are so outraged by the concept of being *sensitive* to each other, especially in regard to racial, cultural, religious and sexual "differences". 

which begs the questions: why is it so much to ask that we be sensitive toward each other? how is that a bad thing?

those are rhetorical questions, by the way - i think we may already be too far down the road toward a political theme here.

-dh


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...that would mean referring to your friend as a person. a human being. so-called "political correctness", which really is nothing more than *sensitivity*, is a step toward that. i love canada, but i am a person first, and a canadian second. the fact that i am a white, english speaking, heterosexual male is also secondary.
> 
> the mystery (and its really not much of a mystery at all) is why people are so outraged by the concept of being *sensitive* to each other, especially in regard to racial, cultural, religious and sexual "differences".
> 
> ...


I don't think that there's anything "political" about "political correctness". It's kind of an enforced anti-recognition of a recognizable difference in somebody (let me take a breath). I believe that going out of your way to not recognize a difference in someone could be as insulting as recognizing that same difference. In fact, in the end, it depends on how the subject person takes it - there are people who chose to be insulted and there are those that chose to accept and perhaps even celebrate the difference.

The confusion happens when someone with a difference *choses when they wish to be recognized for that difference and when they do not *- I believe that is truly the larger problem.

Not to make it the subject's fault - I just want some consistency so that I know how I'm supposed to act. The only other alternative is to keep my head down and avoid the issue.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

noobcake said:


> For that same reason, my black friend does not particularly enjoy being called an "african american" because when someone calls him that, he knows that, that person is going out of his/her way just to be politically correct..


I'm sure he doesn't because most likely he is not from Africa or America. In the same way us Natives aren't excited at being called Indians as we aren't from India.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Paul said:


> At the same time, one of the more significant Aboriginal lobby groups in North America is the American Indian Movement. I can't tell by looking at someone whether or not "Indian" is offensive.
> 
> I prefer to call you "Terry", or "That chicken'-picken' maniac". I hope both are acceptable.:smile:



Yes and then there's "Indian Affairs" http://www.ainc-inac.gc.ca/index-eng.asp 
But you are right. Even amongst the minorities there is confusion. It comes down to an individual thing. Really why would any one want to be primarily identified as their race. I'm known to all my friends as "Terry". Not "That Indian" or "That Native". 
As for what you can call me, "Terry" is fine. I like "Chiken Pickin maniac" to but if my knees ever get healthy enough to continue playing hockey again I would like to avoid any label with chicken in it. I may have to fight someone.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> I'm sure he doesn't because most likely he is not from Africa or America. In the same way us Natives aren't excited at being called Indians as we aren't from India.


How did you natives get so talented at the blues? Every time I watch Rez Blues I get totally blown away.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

shoretyus said:


> How did you natives get so talented at the blues? Every time I watch Rez Blues I get totally blown away.



Years of Oppression.:rockon2: 
Just kidding. I have no idea. Blues is very big with Natives. Even though I am mainly a country rock player I love the blues.


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

way off topic....lol......the rez blues (sp) was one of the very very few tv programs that I watched out for..........for some reason I can't get it anymore on my sattelite...........dang.........oh yeah, where's my manners......thank you


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## Luke98 (Mar 4, 2007)

There are some Really talented musicians on the reserve closest to us... One was top 15 for the new Hockey night in Canada theme song.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> Years of Oppression.


LOL thanks, made my day...


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

mrmatt1972 said:


> LOL thanks, made my day...


It didn't make theirs :sport-smiley-002:

kidding.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

The desire for political correctness sometimes comes from ignorance. 

This really happened to me. I was a supervisor with a Fortune 500 financial institution. In a meeting speaking to my group of about 25 reports, I used the word 'niggardly'. I used it correctly, and in the context of the illustration I was giving. There should have been no question of my intent.

Within the hour, I was in my bosses bosses' office explaining myself. *I* was so offended I almost walked out. Learn to use the language, people.

You can guess what some rabbit ears person thought I was saying or implying. Nuh-uh, here you go: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/niggardly

They had the gall to tell me to not use the word again. I still have painfull headaches from when I rolled my eyes *that far* back in my head.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

By the way, see "Synonyms" in the link above.

Imagine if I would have used the word "penurious" the following week!


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