# Apprenticeship



## Erich

That les paul build video has inspired me to work harder. 

Is there anyone in Woodstock/London or surrounding area (Stratford, Cambridge, etc...) who would be willing to teach me how to build? Possibly take me on as an apprentice? 

I have been doing guitar repair for several years, so I am dedicated.. I trained under Micheal McConville in Stratford a few years ago - but he's far too busy to apprentice anyone these days... 

And while repairs pay the bills, I have been dying to create a guitar of my own for a long time now.


----------



## mrmatt1972

There are a number of acoustic guitar building courses around, I know, I looked into it a few years back. I'm afraid none are near you though.


----------



## Erich

mrmatt1972 said:


> There are a number of acoustic guitar building courses around, I know, I looked into it a few years back. I'm afraid none are near you though.


I've taken several guitar repair and building courses from several different luthiers, and what I take away is not nearly worth the money i pay for the time the spend talking, more than teaching. I am usually held back by the other students.. Most of the time I come away very frustrated and disappointed by how LITTLE I learn from those types of courses... So I can't justify paying for them anymore.

There's a school in Hollywood for Luthiers that looks amazing, but tuition is $35,000. I don't have that kind of money. 

Nor can i afford the one in toronto at $375+hst PER DAY...


----------



## JCJ

My friend Tony Karol is a great guitar maker, and he's in Mississauga. Why not get in touch, maybe with an email, and let him know what you're looking for. He may be able to direct you in the right way. Tony is a lovely guy with a real passion for his work. I own two of his guitars.
Here's a link http://www.karol-guitars.com

Keep the faith. If you really want to do something, you'll find a way.

James


----------



## YJMUJRSRV

gone fishing


----------



## TheRumRunner

Have you considered Galloup?

http://www.galloupguitars.com/school.htm

DW


----------



## dradlin

Erich said:


> I'd really like to know what the hell happened to the apprenticeship model in canada that has turned it into a business model.


You have an inverted understanding of the "apprenticeship model".

Apprentices perform lower skill tasks relieving burden from tradesman to allow them to perform higher skilled task. That controls cost.

Business also takes on apprentices so that they have tradesmen to draw on in the future. 

Many Luthiers don't take on apprentices because their business is a one man show. There is no business model for them to take on an apprentice. 

So it always has been about the business.






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


----------



## YJMUJRSRV

gone fishing


----------



## dradlin

YJMUJRSRV said:


> How many galloup guitars have you seen? How many students have been to his school? What does Galloup really do? Its the perfect example.


Perfect example of what?

I'm not sure what you are implying, but Bryan Galloup is a world class luthier and highly respected by the same, has a very successful school turning out top notch prospects, and guitars built in his school are built from scratch (edit: not kits).

If the OP has taken several build and repair courses, spent a few years learning from McConnville, and is "held back" by other students in a class environment, then he should be able to starting building on his own and learning the process. The issue sounds to be one of initiative.


----------



## Guitar101

I'm sorry to say that "apprenticeship", as it pertains to guitar building, is now a "no go" in my mind. There are too many cheap guitars coming into the marketplace to make it a viable business opportunity.
When a luthier decides he or she is going to give up their day jobs to try to make a living off of guitar building, I feel that, in today's economy, their isn't the extra money on hand to pay someone to learn the trade. Don't forget that, when this person does learn the trade, they will now be in direct competition for the few dollars that are available to fellow luthier's. There are people on this very forum that are pushing hard to get their point across that these cheap guitars are a much better bargain. Actually, there's nothing wrong with that as not everyone can afford some of the more expensive guitars in the marketplace. If your repairs are paying your bills, you are in the unique situation of being able to learn the business on your own but I don't think anyone is going to help you. Some of the builder's on the forum have stated that they did have to learn on their own. Their guitar building skills are unbelievable so it is possible. Don't give up on your dream. Just don't expect anyone to pay you to fulfill your dreams. Good luck


----------



## djmarcelca

Small addition to this conversation,
search ebay, you will find loads of "custom built" mighty mite parts casters. 
Nothing wrong with that, but these guys are simply kit building and flipping.
There are one or 2 guys selling unique custom made guitars

They are running around 1k to 3k to purchase. 

I have no idea how many they sell.


----------



## Jimmy_D

Personally I think the idea is a good one, but unfortunately apprenticeship in general only flourishes in a few industries these days.

I was an apprentice in 1978 at a custom furniture shop in Toronto, there were at least 15 guys working there and every one was interested in showing you “how it’s done”. In that environment and with plenty of custom work available, all it takes is a few brains (in other words the ability to learn from other peoples mistakes and the vision to see how something can be done differently) and you’re on your way to learning and making money, the smarter you are the more money you make.

Over the years I’ve trained numerous apprentices (in fact I have 2 guys who submitted their paperwork recently) and most of those have been win-win situations, especially from a business point of view, so count me in as a believer.

The issue for you today is that in Ontario the state of guitar manufacturing is limited to one-man niche market operations who don’t have the volume of work to support another wage, let alone themselves. 

Sadly, even if they did have the volume there is the reality that they still might not be able to make use of an apprentice... that takes more than just the business sense to bring the volume of work... your chances of long term successful use of an apprentice are directly proportional to your ability to hire the right people and train them properly, which is probably why apprenticeship in the trades is down dramatically in the last 30 years. 

You’d find work if you moved to where the work is... Godin? If that’s not an option I’d suggest looking at an apprenticeship where one is available, namely cabinetmaking. You can’t find a trade that will give you a more rounded background with the most relevance to building guitars and it encompasses so much more, throw in some business courses and you’re well placed to run your own...


----------



## Erich

dradlin said:


> If the OP has taken several build and repair courses, spent a few years learning from McConnville, and is "held back" by other students in a class environment, then he should be able to starting building on his own and learning the process. The issue sounds to be one of initiative.


You are Seriously mistaken.. I have all the initiative and drive in the world.. I read constantly, I am desperately trying my hardest on my own. I Have several stores farming work out to me, and I fly by the seat of my pants everyday. It is scary. That's why I KNOW that I require traditional training because I see so many things done wrong by other repair guys that come back to me, and i have to try to figure them out by hassling others better than myself. And I don't like that. Also, learning bad habits are a lot harder to correct down the road than learning good habits the first time. But I don't have the money to study from Galloup, or Serge in Quebec, or any of these reknowned luthiers... and I do understand Apprenticeship. I expect to work 40 - 50 hours a week and get paid nothing. That's what I'm dying for. I'll take out a loan to apprentice, call it a student loan. But the way it seems to work is people want me to PAY hundreds of dollars to learn diddly squat. I do not want a quick fix course like everyone is offering.. I am ready and dedicated to doing a several year long run apprenticing for a REAL Luthier who learned this way himself and knows how to train an apprentice. This IS my passion... However, I specialize in Repairs. Not necessarily Building.. Building is easy. Repairs are far much more work, which is why i am desperate for a competent teacher. I know, there is so much I need to know and will never obtain from books, no matter how much I read. There is no substitute for Experience.


----------



## dradlin

Erich said:


> You are Seriously mistaken.. I have all the initiative and drive in the world.. I read constantly, I am desperately trying my hardest on my own. I Have several stores farming work out to me, and I fly by the seat of my pants everyday. It is scary. That's why I KNOW that I require traditional training because I see so many things done wrong by other repair guys that come back to me, and i have to try to figure them out by hassling others better than myself. And I don't like that. Also, learning bad habits are a lot harder to correct down the road than learning good habits the first time. But I don't have the money to study from Galloup, or Serge in Quebec, or any of these reknowned luthiers... and I do understand Apprenticeship. I expect to work 40 - 50 hours a week and get paid nothing. That's what I'm dying for. I'll take out a loan to apprentice, call it a student loan. But the way it seems to work is people want me to PAY hundreds of dollars to learn diddly squat. I do not want a quick fix course like everyone is offering.. I am ready and dedicated to doing a several year long run apprenticing for a REAL Luthier who learned this way himself and knows how to train an apprentice. This IS my passion... However, I specialize in Repairs. Not necessarily Building.. Building is easy and profitless. Repairs are far much more work, which is why i am desperate for a competent teacher. I know, there is so much I need to know and will never obtain from books, no matter how much I read. There is no substitute for Experience.


You can do either of two things:

1. Complain that no one will take you on in an apprentice role (that practically doesn't exist) and blame others for your stunted development and lost dreams.

2. Take it upon yourself to learn the craft through schooling, self study, trial and error (not on customer guitars), all supported by applied problem solving and strong foundational woodworking skills.

Successful people choose option 2.

It seems to me that at this point you have chosen option 1.

If you can't succeed through option 2, then choose another "career" because you aren't cut out for it.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


----------



## Guest

Apply for a job at Godin in quebec? 
That's the closest guitar manufacturer
I can think of.


----------



## Scotty

YJMUJRSRV said:


> You would have to sweep his floors but at least he's done it all and actually knows what he is doing. Of course one would have to work for nothing or next to it and there lies the sacrifice none today are willing to make.


As would an apprentice in any trade.


----------



## Jimmy_D

dradlin said:


> You can do either of two things:
> 
> 1. Complain that no one will take you on in an apprentice role (that practically doesn't exist) and blame others for your stunted development and lost dreams.
> 
> 2. Take it upon yourself to learn the craft through schooling, self study, trial and error (not on customer guitars), all supported by applied problem solving and strong foundational woodworking skills.
> 
> Successful people choose option 2.
> 
> It seems to me that at this point you have chosen option 1.
> 
> If you can't succeed through option 2, then choose another "career" because you aren't cut out for it.


Commonsense post #1, couldn't be more true - to say that's well written is a severe understatement.

As for what an apprentice does on the first day, there's far worse work than sweeping the floors, my first weeks were spent in the spraybooth.


----------



## Scotty

YJMUJRSRV said:


> You obviously have done these things you say as that is the sad reality. Most of the courses offered are by people who don't make $ as builders not do they actually build much. What I have seen is many "kit" courses. In my opinion the reason why is these people cannot make money any other way. Today there are a ton of builders and we live in a big brand world. You either specialize in a very specific area or you .. teach.
> 
> Its completely possible to teach yourself. I did. I picked stuff up being around some people when I was young but no one taught me how to build anything. It took years. Would I accept an apprentice? Likely never. Why? Because I fly by the seat of my pants. That's right when someone sends me a 50k vintage restoration I fly by the seat of my pants. I have plenty of experience to draw from but each job is different and I constantly have to figure out ways to do things. There is no one to teach these things and never will be. Its like learning to play guitar. Its nice to have someone to show you scales and stuff but no one can teach you how to make music. Their are plenty of people like Hendrix who make great music without even knowing the scales. Hours and hours of simply finding the way. After awhile the way is second nature.
> 
> I know of two larger builders that did apprentice people. One in particular apprenticed many and a few of those are now very well known. He wont do it anymore because most apprentice interests are from those not looking to apprentice but to learn the magic secrets that will result in master status by weeks end. We see the same attitude of this very forum all the time. Someone wants the magic answer to cheaply turn their guitar into a great piece, free and simple. Even worse is the vast amount of "builders" who know just enough to start "mentoring" on the forums. Man, it takes years to even learn how to properly use equipment and maintain it. Therefore we see so many "builders" who paint company A's body and bolt it to company B's neck. These guys are the first to "teach" too.
> 
> It would be great to have a school that taught the basic theories and techniques. Keeping in mind one would have to travel to these and it wouldn't be a one week event. Joe Lado comes to mind for this. Of course he is expensive and I have heard mixed things. He does very much know what he is doing though. Always a good start.
> 
> I ran a tech business before this. No one taught me that either. My approach has always been if you really want to do something you will. *If you don't truly have passion for it you wont do it. Anybody can learn anything by reading books and simply doing it. Trying, failing, again again and it will culminate to knowledge. That's the greatest thing IMO.* I learn from every job. I wince when I hear people say things like "cant be done" because it can always be done. The question is do you really want to do it? Sometimes I make less than minimum wage figuring out a job. But its another piece I have conquered and the next piece of the era will be much smoother. Its been years and years to get here and I still have lots to learn.


This is an awesome piece. I could not agree more. _Passion is key and half the success to any endeavor. Perseverance is the other half._ I'm self taught in everything I do also. Books, internet and trial and error. However I think that the 2 month Journeyman course at Galloup would be a fantastic start and enough to kick-start anyone in the right direction.


----------



## LydianGuitars

YJMUJRSRV said:


> You obviously have done these things you say as that is the sad reality. _Most of the courses offered are by people who don't make $ as builders not do they actually build much._


You obviously have no idea of what you are talking about. 

Some of the best luthiers in the world offer apprenticeships and/or courses. I know Brian Monty does it, as does Sergei De Longe. Out in Toronto, Lado has been doing it for years. There are many other successful luthiers that do this, it should be failry easy to find someone that can help out the OP. 

Most of the luthiers that do this will want a certain level of commitment though.


----------



## LydianGuitars

Erich said:


> Building is easy and profitless. Repairs are far much more work,


Huh? Really? Building is easy?


----------



## Jimmy_D

LydianGuitars said:


> Huh? Really? Building is easy?


Ya, he had me until I read that line, then in a flash it almost seems pointless, he's so out of touch with reality...


----------



## Adcandour

I hope the following helps; if it doesn't apply, sorry. 

When I started my company 11 years ago. I literally had no competition. the set-back was that I couldn't work for anyone prior to give me a solid understanding of the ins-and-outs. 

There was no hands-on training - only guidelines and protocols that could be read. 

So, I would go and do the work and come across all sorts of issues that no one could help me with. I had to figure all of this out on my own. I had to build solutions on-site, tweak equipment to function better, blah blah. 

The point is this - if you work through your problems with your own solutions, You may end up developing something unique and revolutionary within the industry.


----------



## Erich

Ok.. Not sure where you guys are getting the idea that i'm not dedicated enough to train myself.. 

Especially considering I already own a shop, have been doing instrument repairs for over 2 years professionally, FULL TIME, have several stores farming work out to me, and am PAYING my bills easily. I have no shortage of work. 

But I am no fool. I know a proper education will take me further in one year than i can take myself in 5 years. That's just the way it is.. 

Would you go to a "self taught" heart surgeon for bypass surgery? cause he's read lots of books? or do you want someone with actual credentials???.. 

To me it's the same thing when someone walks into my shop with a $3000 guitar and says to me "so who trained you?" and i say "well i taught myself".. I see their eyes glaze over and they start side stepping toward the door... 

I'd suggest in the future NOT running down people who are simply seeking out help to further their skills in a more scholarly manner. 

For those few who responded with a genuine desire to help, I take your words to heart and will seek out these other venues. Thank you for your guidance.




LydianGuitars said:


> Huh? Really? Building is easy?


Not on it's own, but in contrast to fixing a broken instrument, from all the builders I've been talking to, they all tell me that building an instrument is easier than repairing a broken one. I'm not saying building is not difficult, or time consuming, or lots of work.. just saying what I've been told by others better than myself. No offence was intended, Not trying to belittle anyone's skills.


----------



## Erich

After studying all the comments, I can see that I should really refine my skills, and take some woodworking courses. 

Specifically, Cabinetmaking seems to be very applicable; as well as a few jig-making courses.

Also, some type of course that would teach me about Wood identification and use as a medium in construction of instruments. 

Has anyone here taken any such courses? and could recommend a good one? Or perhaps a better way of learning this. (Specific books, etc...)

I have a few books on Arboriculture that I've tried to read, but they are WAY over my head, and not related to construction, but more related to tree health and pruning, etc...

I am willing to travel anywhere in the world to learn.


----------



## Erich

Regarding that "building is easy" comment, which seems to have upset a few of you. I was reading an old issue of Guitarmaker this morning and found this article making the same point. So, as I said, This is what I often hear from guys who do repairs. Enjoy the article.


----------



## Jimmy_D

Erich said:


> After studying all the comments, I can see that I should really refine my skills, and take some woodworking courses.
> 
> Specifically, Cabinetmaking seems to be very applicable; as well as a few jig-making courses.
> 
> Also, some type of course that would teach me about Wood identification and use as a medium in construction of instruments.
> 
> Has anyone here taken any such courses? and could recommend a good one? Or perhaps a better way of learning this. (Specific books, etc...)
> 
> I have a few books on Arboriculture that I've tried to read, but they are WAY over my head, and not related to construction, but more related to tree health and pruning, etc...
> 
> I am willing to travel anywhere in the world to learn.


Ah... good to see you're not gone after all, you know an in depth course in cabinetmaking will teach you the complete foundation and it just so happens that Conestoga college in Kitchener offers a great course. If you're interested pm me, as I'm always trying to recruit plum new graduates, I know the gentleman who runs the course and would be glad to put you in touch.


----------



## Erich

Jimmy_D said:


> Ah... good to see you're not gone after all, you know an in depth course in cabinetmaking will teach you the complete foundation and it just so happens that Conestoga college in Kitchener offers a great course. If you're interested pm me, as I'm always trying to recruit plum new graduates, I know the gentleman who runs the course and would be glad to put you in touch.


Aye, I must admit, my pride took a beating like a punching bag... But I am resilient and determined... I have never been more passionate about doing anything as a career in my life as much I am now about instrument repair and building. In hindsight, I really appreciate your very frank post, it may have been the very kick in the butt i have been needing to get my butt on the right path. So thanks Jimmy. Truly and sincerely. 

(OOPS! - Correction: I just clued in that it was Dradlin's very frank post. So thank you Dradlin. Jimmy quoted and seconded the post which caused my confusion. Sorry for the brain fart! So again, thank you very much for your frankness and wisdom Dradlin.)

Jimmy - That course at Conestoga would work perfectly. Please, by all means, put me in touch with the gentleman who runs it. And I'll be more than happy to contact you upon completion of the course. I really appreciate that offer.


----------



## Adcandour

Looks like you just got a good hazing. I'm also glad you decided to stick around. 

That means I get a discount on one of your first guitars, cool? Cool.


----------



## Erich

adcandour said:


> Looks like you just got a good hazing. I'm also glad you decided to stick around.
> 
> That means I get a discount on one of your first guitars, cool? Cool.


LOL.. Thanks.. I'm glad too.. And sure, When I am capable, I certainly give you a deal if you're willing to buy one... Gotta start somewhere, right?  Ultimately I am in this for the love of the craft, not so much to make money.. If i wanted to get rich i'd be a lawyer, not a Luthier.


----------



## jdguitarbuilder

Hey Erich 

What do you call a luthier in the unemployment line.....LUCKY! Old joke but a good one.

The Conastoga course is three years in length but it is good, I have worked with a number of the third year co-op students and I know for a fact that Larrivee on occasion has hired third year students to work in his plant. That may no longer be the case now that he has moved all his building to the US.

Cheers
John


----------



## Erich

jdguitarbuilder said:


> Hey Erich
> 
> What do you call a luthier in the unemployment line.....LUCKY! Old joke but a good one.
> 
> The Conastoga course is three years in length but it is good, I have worked with a number of the third year co-op students and I know for a fact that Larrivee on occasion has hired third year students to work in his plant. That may no longer be the case now that he has moved all his building to the US.
> 
> Cheers
> John


LOL.. good joke  And thanks, that's good to know.


----------



## greco

@ jdguitarbuilder & Erich..... as you both live in Woodstock and are interested in and/or are building/repairing guitars...Have you ever met or considered meeting? 

Cheers

Dave

OOOPS...Just hit me...How many Woodstocks are there in Canada?


----------



## Erich

greco said:


> @ jdguitarbuilder & Erich..... as you both live in Woodstock and are interested in and/or are building/repairing guitars...Have you ever met or considered meeting?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave
> 
> OOOPS...Just hit me...How many Woodstocks are there in Canada?



lol.. thanks greco, I hadn't noticed he was local.

I think there are several Woodstock's throughout Canada.. But only one in Ontario. And that's a great idea. 

I have seen a few people on here from Woodstock, but I was hoping they would speak up without me hassling them... 

But JD, if you are interested in getting together to talk guitars, I would be more than happy. 

And that goes for anyone else too.


----------



## greco

I was quite sure there was another luthier in Woodstock and I think his brand name was Frankenstein.

However, when I researched this brand, I found only this link:
http://www.frankinsteinguitarworks.com/aboutus.htm

I am also fairly sure that he was at the Elmira Guitar Show about 2 years ago.

Unfortunate...for you.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## Guest

You could ask at your local guitar shop if they have a
list of luthiers. I'm sure they stop in for parts and such.


----------



## Erich

laristotle said:


> You could ask at your local guitar shop if they have a
> list of luthiers. I'm sure they stop in for parts and such.


I have tried that, The only local musical instrument store in town, which used to farm out to me, has recently been bought out by Long & McQuaid, and are now farming all repairs out to their own repair shops. They told me flat out they can't provide any info. on other luthiers, but if i was interested in repairs, they could do them for me.. lol... Just trying to protect their repair business i assume... I had better luck at Bellone's Music in London. They were quite helpful.


----------



## Erich

greco said:


> I was quite sure there was another luthier in Woodstock and I think his brand name was Frankenstein.
> 
> However, when I researched this brand, I found only this link:
> http://www.frankinsteinguitarworks.com/aboutus.htm
> 
> I am also fairly sure that he was at the Elmira Guitar Show about 2 years ago.
> 
> Unfortunate...for you.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


Yeah I met with him before he took off to the Dominican, He was a funny duck.. I found him to be quite hard to read... He sold off his entire shop and all his guitar bodies, wood, hardware, everything, and moved down to the Dominican to build these little.. I can't remember exactly what he called them.. Basically, 1-string Ham-Can "Ukuleles".. Imagine one of those tear drop shaped Ham Cans, nailed to a square plank of wood, with a little sound-hole cut into it. Attach a little plank of wood for the neck and install ONE machine head into the "headstock" section of the neck piece (it was literally a chunk of wood, not a typical "neck" as one would imagine, no frets either). He then Drilled a small hole through the plank of wood that was the "body", screwed a wood screw into the plank of wood, Fed the string up through the hole and over the Screw (used as the bridge) and wound the string up on the single machine head. He had a specific name for them.. and was telling me how he's moving to the Dominican to make these, as that's apparently all they play down there... Really wish I could find an actual picture of one, but google is no help today.


----------



## Guest

something like this? a diddly bow I believe.










I like Jack's version.

[video=youtube;R-GudSX_kMU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-GudSX_kMU[/video]


----------



## Erich

Very close, but not quite the same... They resemble a ukulele more, with the can on the backside.


----------



## manupulated

I can say that cabinet making is good to learn the basics of wood working , the tools are mostly the same , kind of woods too . but all the tricks of the trade are not in there , even after 15 years there is some stuff I need to think and think again ... there's many ways to get stuff done . It needs to be in your guts


----------

