# Cover bands - can I ask you a money question?



## james on bass (Feb 4, 2006)

What is a fair price for a bar gig? Assume you are a tight, decent band with people coming out to see you. You bring your own full PA and do sound yourself. 

What is reasonable to expect for payment?


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

Assuming that you have full production, I would say that in the current market you would be lucky to get $800 for a one nighter and $1400 for two. 

If you have a dedicated soundman, get him to bring the gear in seperately - don't ever tell the bar owner you own your own gear - let him think you are paying for it.

I believe that my week-end house gig pays $600.00 a night and provides accoms and production is supplied by the venue. I can find out for sure this week-end if you like.


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## james on bass (Feb 4, 2006)

We rarely play in London. Most of the gigs are in the smaller towns like you say. We don't guarantee an audience, but we usually do seem to bring in a number of people coming to see us. Our new drummer seems to think we are short changing ourselves, and I tend to agree, though one guy in particular in the band needs to pull his cowboy boots up before I feel we can start demanding better money.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Hamm Guitars said:


> Assuming that you have full production, I would say that in the current market you would be lucky to get $800 for a one nighter and $1400 for two.


Lucky is right. Not alot of money to be made right now. I have an expensive gear habit, so I'm basically just playing now to subsidize that.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

If it wasn't for the glamour it just might not be worth it.

Seriously, my buddy is doing "old country" gigs and the one bar in Nia. Falls pays $800 total for a four-piece for two nights and a matinee in between. They supply their own sound and buy their own beer.

Go ahead and do the math -you have to really love playing old country or hate your home life to take that gig .....


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## Robboman (Oct 14, 2006)

The decent\good bars with regular weekend entertainment pay on average around $1000 to $1400 for the average local 4 pc coverband. Thats for a Fri\Sat. In my market there's also plenty of little pubs that pay like 6 to $800so they mostly get duos, trios and sometimes larger bands that are somehow willing to work ridiculously cheap. 

<moneyrant>

IMO, In inflation-adjusted dollars the average money is about half what it was in the mid 90's and maybe 1/4 what it was in the 80's. Around '95 when I started gigging I asked people this same question and the rule of thumb for bar gigs came down to $100 per man, per night as a bare minimum, after agent and production costs. Back then the old timers bitched about how bad that was, how back in the 70's and 80's you could make way more plus there were more 5-6 night gigs so you could actually make a living. 13 years and a few hundred gigs later I have my own experience to go on as well as other players I know around here. In that same time minimum wage has roughly doubled due to the inflated costs of everything. But guess what? The band pay is about the same and theres fewer gigs available. Most are Fri\Sat only, front and back 3 gigs seem to have just about dissapeared.

</moneyrant>


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I try not to leave the house for less than $100, but the size of the band can have some effect on that. 

In 1978 I used to say I wouldn't leave the house for less than $100. That wasn't quite true as I'd take less for killer fun gigs and three night stands. 

For a couple of years (2003/4/5) I played bass in a stellar band for about the same money. Inflation? Deflation, more like.

So much has happened...DJs, disco, sports bars, video dances, drunk driving laws, cd and dvd technology, the www, cable and satellite TV, open mics, aging and morphing audience, changing tastes, policing...

Peace, Mooh.


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## Robboman (Oct 14, 2006)

Case in point: I just booked my emerging new 4 pc at a popular downtown Calgary bar that's been around forever. AFAIK they pay the same fixed flat rate (not much) to all their bands and it hasnt changed in.. forever. Yet it's a difficult room to get into, bands around here clamour for the chance to play in there, just because it's a fun room that always has a good crowd. I'm sure a lot of guys would play there for free.

Bottom line, you do it for the love, not the money.

If you want more money playing covers, you really have to go after weddings in the summer, and corporate events year round (especially xmas). There's NO limit to the budget on these (I mean, RIM hired VH for their last big one!), but you also have to really fine tune your set lists and be open to playing a lot of cheesy popular hits for every age group to dance to. IMO it's usually less 'fun' than playing bars, but the pay is typically double, sometimes triple or more.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Paul said:


> I'm on the other side of the coin....there ain't enough money to get me to play bars again. I've got an NYE job booked this year. Dinner music from 5:00 to 8:00 pm, then a DJ takes over for the night. I get NYE money, and I'm home and in bed before 9:30 pm.


NYE ? New Years Eve ?


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

Robboman said:


> ...I'm sure a lot of guys would play there for free.
> 
> Bottom line, you do it for the love, not the money...


Not pointing fingers at anyone - but this is a real sore point for me.

Guys that play for nothing, a case of beer or for a cut rate price are the people you want to blame for the current state of the bar band scene. I've heard the same story over and over - why should I pay these guys $x when these other guys will play for less than half that.

Most bar owner can't tell the difference between a good band and a bad band, as to them all that matters is how much money is in the till at the end of the night - and you can't fault them for that. No one goes to bars to see bands anymore as it is a real crap shoot as to if he band is going to be any good. A DJ is consistent - which is why so many bars go with them.

What professional musicains need is a 'Union' that will go around and 'talk' some sense into these bands when they are loading out at the end of the night.

We also need the return of the room ratings (A Room, B Room, C Room), and agents that book them - no more direct bookings as musicians don't allways have the best head for business. Bands that are starting out should have to work their way into the C Room and climb up the ladder from there.

People need to start boo-ing the bad bands.

That's my rant.....


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## Robboman (Oct 14, 2006)

Hamm Guitars said:


> Not pointing fingers at anyone - but this is a real sore point for me.
> 
> Guys that play for nothing, a case of beer or for a cut rate price are the people you want to blame for the current state of the bar band scene. I've heard the same story over and over - why should I pay these guys $x when these other guys will play for less than half that.
> 
> ...


I've turned down many gigs where the pay was even crappier than the usual crappy pay. But I can't put all the blame on bands willing to work too cheap, I think it's supply\demand due to all those other factors as Mooh pointed out. You're right that bars are only about making money. It's about getting the most people in the bar at the lowest overhead cost, period. It turns out more people will flock to sports bars with 100 tv sets or to discos where all the 'hot' people go, than to see bands play. Even if you could somehow magically unionize all the bands and elimate the lowballers, most bars wouldn't (imo) pay more, they'd simply drop live bands and go with a DJ or 100 tvs instead, leaving even fewer potential gig venues. 

Oh, and I just can't support booing bad bands (if you were serious!) I get your point but I couldnt do that to some kids just starting out, all excited to be on stage for maybe the first time. No matter how much they suck.


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

The problem as I see it is that there is a real lack of professional Entertainers. Just about every musician I know is either a Graphic Designer, Web Developer or programmer of some type. Musicians used to be able to make a living playing music - some still do, but their numbers are greatly diminishing.

The lack of full time musicians is because there is a lack of interest in live music, other than your big name concerts. I think the lack of interest is a direct result in the inconsistent quality of live entertainment. DJs and big Screen TVs are consistent. Bands and bars that book themselves gennerally are not. I'm not saying that all bands or bars that book themselves are bad, but there is not quality control of the product that is reaching the end user.

I think that if the quality control was put back in, and rooms were rated on a scale again then things would _start_ to get better. You would have the most entertaining bands in A rooms and the kids just starting out in the C rooms - they move to the B rooms as they get better.

Bands & Musicians really need to become more entertaining. I have seen a band hit the stage in a room that is just hopping and jam packed and just clear the dance floor inside of two songs. Playing music is just not enough to entertain people, no matter how good the musicians are at it. There is that whole feedback thing with the energy in the room that live music has going for it - you can't get that out of a TV, and it's limited with a DJ. It seems like bands have been playing in the corners of wing joints for so long that most of them are used to standing there quitely and trying not to distirb anyone. Then of course there is the other extream where you have bands that come out swinging sledgehammers and scare all the girls away.

Everyone will always want to go where the 'hot' people go, so entertaining these people is the way to go. No one leaves home to go out to hang out with not-so-hot people, or people with really nice personalities - it just doesn't happen.

I think bars would pay for a good product with good returns, they won't pay for a product that doesn't make financial sense. They need a commercial product that not only attracts people, but keeps them comming back to their establishment. When they come back they have to get that consistent quality.

I am totally serious about boo-ing bands. If you walk into a club on a friday or saturday night and there is a bunch of wieners on the stage that are providing no entertainment - let them know. If there is a bunch of kids on stage playing their first gig, it should be a week night and you should be in a C room; and if that is the case give them all the slack in the world.

I guess I'm just really jaded about this sort of thing. Twenty years of mixing mostly bar bands will do that to you, I guess.



Robboman said:


> I've turned down many gigs where the pay was even crappier than the usual crappy pay. But I can't put all the blame on bands willing to work too cheap, I think it's supply\demand due to all those other factors as Mooh pointed out. You're right that bars are only about making money. It's about getting the most people in the bar at the lowest overhead cost, period. It turns out more people will flock to sports bars with 100 tv sets or to discos where all the 'hot' people go, than to see bands play. Even if you could somehow magically unionize all the bands and elimate the lowballers, most bars wouldn't (imo) pay more, they'd simply drop live bands and go with a DJ or 100 tvs instead, leaving even fewer potential gig venues.
> 
> Oh, and I just can't support booing bad bands (if you were serious!) I get your point but I couldnt do that to some kids just starting out, all excited to be on stage for maybe the first time. No matter how much they suck.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Paul said:


> I hear you brother. I'm an AFM member and even I have a hard time coming up with great reasons for the "i-just-love-to-play-for $50-and-a-case-of-bud-light" bar bands to join. I take that as a failing of the AFM, and I am doing what I can to address the challenges.
> 
> The son of a friend has his band booked to play at the Opera House in Sept. the bands are each responsible for selling a minimum number of tickets. Nobody is getting paid. One band has dropped out, and their ticket quota has just been applied to the remaining bands.
> 
> There is the possibility that somebody from Sony music will be there, at least that's what the promoter is promising. Promoters don't lie, do they????


I think these type of things here are the worst of all the possible scenarios. This whole thing of "instant success" ala American Idol or these competitions suck. Especially these types where they are playing for free and doing all the PR and ticket sales themselves.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

This is a greath Topic....even if myself i don't gig anymore, i did in the 80's and early 90's. I was talking to a bar owner recently and he told me something that reflect on this situation i would say.

in the 70's, 80's and up to the early 90's i would say, bars made a Killing selling booze. the whole Driving under the influance was barely alive, and, not that it was brilliant to do so, people got wasted in bars and made their way home, or took a cheap taxi and got home. Usually the designated driver stayed sober until 11pm and then said..**** it...and got wasted..ahaha.

Now, today, the bar scene, around here at least, is more subtle, kids don't drink, they are broke, take a single beer and will keep the bottle in their hands for 3 hrs not to be bothered. Energy Drinks and suck are the norm it seems in bars where the client are between 16 and 22 for exemple.

The places where people are older, say 28 and above, same thing realy, people are now scared of drinking due to the 0 tolerance from the Cops. 

So Bars are making a LOT less money. Another fact..since Smoking is not allowed in bars anymore, even less peoples. 

In Sherbrooke, we used to have at least 5 ot 6 bars that had bands...now, i think there is one, and most of the bands are so damn lame, i'de rather watch American Idole..

One thing that gives me hope is we are starting to see more and more bands comming up with original and good material, and doing their own shows, sometimes having a few bands for an evening, and it's starting to work pretty well, from metal to country, not in the same show thank god..

SO i think the way to go will be self promotion with outside help. I think the era of the bars are comming to an end...around here at least.


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## Rick Assenger (Mar 2, 2007)

Excellent points by everyone!

Now check this out for a different perspective.

I went through an exercise, on a rainy day when I was bored, where I did an analysis of the man hours associated with playing a typical gig (4 guys in the band, no roadies). I started doing it just for fun, but after working it through it really demonstrated how much work really goes into playing a gig.

In my previous band, this was the scenario: we were a hobby band specializing in corporate gigs and parties, we had a good reputation and were somewhat in demand. We supplied all of our own equipment and had lots of it, including P.A. monitors, etc. The following looks at the amount of time in total man hours that we required to pull off a typical gig that was located one hour away - from the time you leave your house, to the time you are back home and hit the sack. Any time in between that was used for socializing was not counted. All of our equipment was stored at the band leader's house where we practiced.

Remember...from start to finish, just so that you can get an idea of how much time we took. Your time may be more or way less depending on your equipment...but we had a lot of big heavy stuff. Also remember that no-one, especially the client, really cares about all this stuff...they just think they are paying for your 4 hours of playing...lol...

- Band leader used to spend at least 2 hours prepping and organizing gear = 2 hours
- Drive over to the house where the gear was...4 guys at 15 minutes = 1hour.
- Load gear into two vans...4 guys at 1 hour = 4 hours
- Drive to gig...4 guys at 1 hour = 4 hours
- Unload and set-up to a point of being ready to play a professional show...4 guys at 2 hours = 8 hours.
- Play from 9:00 p.m. - 1:00 a.m. ...4 guys at 4 hours = 16 hours
- Take down and load into vans (this time it's sloppy, everything is just thrown in boxes because you are tired and burned out)...4 guys at 1 hour = 4 hours.
- Drive back to band leaders house...4 guys at 1 hour = 4 hours
- Unload at band leaders house...being careful not to wake up the whole family...4 guys at 1 hour = 4 hours
- Drive home to your house and hit the sack...4 guys at 15 minutes = 1 hour

Total man hours.........48 hours
Out of Pocket Expenses: gas $20, strings and sticks $20...total $40 (Wear and tear on equipment or vehicles is a gift).

If you are getting paid $800 - $40 expenses = $760 net. $760 divided by 48 hours = $15.83 an hour per guy.
If you are getting paid $500 - $40 expenses = $460 net. $460 divided by 48 hours = $9.58 an hour per guy.
For those famous $300 gigs...$260 divided by 48 hours = $5.41 an hour per guy...lovely.

We once got paid $2,500 for a private party (only once!), which is more like $52.00 an hour per guy. This made us feel warm and fuzzy all over.

Hopefully my next band has micro-sized, high fidelity equipment, roadies, limo rides...and very generous clients.

P.S....the next time you get work done on your car by a mechanic for $90/hr, buy him a coffee, he's worth every penny!

I'll stop now...lol...

keep on playin'.....RA


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Rick, in theory, your reasonning is well done...in real life!..not so much. I run a buisness, and appart Lawyers, usually, no one can actually charge for going to and from a client, that's pretty rare.  same for loading and unloading. the amount of gear you use it the band's responsibility, not the clients.

PS..the day i will have to pay a grease monkey 90$ an hrs, i'll never use a car again.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Paul said:


> I hear you brother. I'm an AFM member and even I have a hard time coming up with great reasons for the "i-just-love-to-play-for $50-and-a-case-of-bud-light" bar bands to join. I take that as a failing of the AFM, and I am doing what I can to address the challenges.
> 
> The son of a friend has his band booked to play at the Opera House in Sept. the bands are each responsible for selling a minimum number of tickets. Nobody is getting paid. One band has dropped out, and their ticket quota has just been applied to the remaining bands.
> 
> There is the possibility that somebody from Sony music will be there, at least that's what the promoter is promising. Promoters don't lie, do they????


Just an observation here, but it's important to note that being in a Union does nothing to elevate the quality of bands. As I'm sure you will attest, some of the worst players (and some of the best) are AFM members.

On the other hand, being a non-union player doesn't mean you're not a pro in the sense that you play for beer money or nothing at all.


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## Fajah (Jun 28, 2006)

Rick Assenger said:


> Total man hours.........48 hours
> Out of Pocket Expenses: gas $20, strings and sticks $20...total $40 (Wear and tear on equipment or vehicles is a gift).
> 
> If you are getting paid $800 - $40 expenses = $760 net. $760 divided by 48 hours = $15.83 an hour per guy.
> ...


Playing a bar gig with a great bunch of bandmates and having fun doing it, getting a great turnout each and every time you play, getting asked to return to play by the bar owner because of calls from his patrons......PRICELESS!


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

Rick - $15 an hour doesn't sound so bad if you could work 80 hours a week.

AL3D - I charge travel time, and get paid for it in my main business. I also charge a surcharge (and get my hotel and meals paid for) if I have to drive anything more than a few hours to do a sound gig. I also charge twice as much to tech a show (load in, set up , tear down) than I do if I am just walking in to mix. Just about everyone I know in both lines of businesses does the same thing, so it isn't uncommon to get paid for all of the time required to do a job - at least that's my experience.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Hamm Guitars said:


> Rick - $15 an hour doesn't sound so bad if you could work 80 hours a week.
> 
> AL3D - I charge travel time, and get paid for it in my main business. I also charge a surcharge (and get my hotel and meals paid for) if I have to drive anything more than a few hours to do a sound gig. I also charge twice as much to tech a show (load in, set up , tear down) than I do if I am just walking in to mix. Just about everyone I know in both lines of businesses does the same thing, so it isn't uncommon to get paid for all of the time required to do a job - at least that's my experience.


I do the same or similar. When it comes to travel, I charge a fee per km outside of my city.


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## Robboman (Oct 14, 2006)

Rick Assenger said:


> Total man hours.........48 hours
> Out of Pocket Expenses: gas $20, strings and sticks $20...total $40 (Wear and tear on equipment or vehicles is a gift).
> 
> If you are getting paid $800 - $40 expenses = $760 net. $760 divided by 48 hours = $15.83 an hour per guy.
> ...


Rick, great post! I've also done this sort of breakdown, more in my head and less detailed but with the same conclusion: in general, gig pay sucks! You could debate whether to include travel time in the hours, but on the other side many bands will also have WAY more out of pocket expenses. Most notably, agent commission payable (10 to 15%) and production rental. in my bands I own the PA and 'rent' it to the band when we gig, other bands either rent or hire full production. Even if the band co-owns full PA and lights there's ongoing cost of maintenance, upgrades and additions to pay for.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Robboman said:


> Rick, great post! I've also done this sort of breakdown, more in my head and less detailed but with the same conclusion: in general, gig pay sucks! You could debate whether to include travel time in the hours, but on the other side many bands will also have WAY more out of pocket expenses. Most notably, agent commission payable (10 to 15%) and production rental. in my bands I own the PA and 'rent' it to the band when we gig, other bands either rent or hire full production. Even if the band co-owns full PA and lights there's ongoing cost of maintenance, upgrades and additions to pay for.


I agree - and that's not even allowing practice time (years of it) or the cost of my "tools" (thousands of $'s). 

Playing out I found also that a big cost was if I had to buy my own drinks too - in the old days we'd have a tab covered by the bar but as the years went by this perk seemed to dry up. The past few years, on any given night I'd find myself having to pay for 3 beer for myself and if my GF came then it cost me for another 5 or 6 and maybe some wings to boot - there another 50 or so bucks from my "pay".

The last project I walked away from, the (female) singer wanted to book Fri/Sat gigs in an area 2 hours away from home, suggesting that we bring our SO's along and make "mini holidays" out of it. Now why in Heaven's name would I want to spend $300 to earn $200 while gazing across the room at my Honey for 10 hours. Some holiday .....


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## Robboman (Oct 14, 2006)

Hamm Guitars said:


> The problem as I see it is that there is a real lack of professional Entertainers. Just about every musician I know is either a Graphic Designer, Web Developer or programmer of some type. Musicians used to be able to make a living playing music - some still do, but their numbers are greatly diminishing.


 +1



> The lack of full time musicians is because there is a lack of interest in live music, other than your big name concerts.


 +1



> I think the lack of interest is a direct result in the inconsistent quality of live entertainment.


 I think this contrubutes but it still has more to do with the competing alternatives that happen to be much cheaper for bars to support. 



> I think that if the quality control was put back in, and rooms were rated on a scale again then things would _start_ to get better. You would have the most entertaining bands in A rooms and the kids just starting out in the C rooms - they move to the B rooms as they get better.


 Sounds great, but IMO that scene will never come back due to economics. IMO things went downhill because of shrinking demand / earning potential for live bands. It's not that bands went to shit first, causing the demand drop. 



> Bands & Musicians really need to become more entertaining...


 +1. We should all strive for that, but because the bar scene is all weekend warriors doing it for fun we'll continue to see patchy quality. If it was possible for a musician to make a full-time living playing covers locally, we'd see many more bands serious about quality control.



> I am totally serious about boo-ing bands. If you walk into a club on a friday or saturday night and there is a bunch of wieners on the stage that are providing no entertainment - let them know.


I just can't do it! I would suggest booing the bar owner for hiring them, but he's not paying attention, too busy counting the money he saved by cheaping out on the band.


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## Robboman (Oct 14, 2006)

OK, now for my positive, money maximizing insights for musicians and bands: 

1). You can clearly make more money with fewer individuals to pay in the bar scene. My band did OK for the past 8 yrs or so as a trio, some bars have fixed budgets so we get the same lump sum as other bands with 4 or 5 guys. Before that, I made a lot more for a short time doing SOLO gigs with backing tracks. I averaged $250 to $300 a night in pubs. If it was only about money I'd keep doing that (but I quickly grew to hate it, boring and just somehow demeaning musically. Guitar-aokee) 

2). Focus on weddings and corporate gigs. There are still working bands that really are professional entertainers with top-notch quality control. They just don't work in bars anymore, (well, maybe a few each year that are meant for exposure to interested clients. I've booked many events where the buyer came out to a bar gig to check us out first). 

Private events are like the new A rooms. Every BAR gig has a budget ceiling based on their need to make a profit. Private events have NO limit other than how much they want to spend. Some WANT to spend more money if they feel they're getting the very best. The best paying corp events with my trio have paid triple or quadruple the average bar, but there were many others where we lost out to a quality 5 or 6 pc act even though it cost far more still. My goal for my new band is to play more events and fewer bars, that was key in decision to bring on our new female frontperson (mixed gender bands are more marketable, esp for corp stuff). If it starts to pan out, we'll look at adding a keys player and possibly second guitarist down the road.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Robboman said:


> 2). Focus on weddings and corporate gigs. There are still working bands that really are professional entertainers with top-notch quality control. They just don't work in bars anymore, (well, maybe a few each year that are meant for exposure to interested clients. I've booked many events where the buyer came out to a bar gig to check us out first).


Many companies are hiring "name" bands that do a full concert at Christmas parties & other events--and even if you pay to get in, it's a lot less than a concert by the same band. Then they sometimes have a cover band to play music for dancing. In those cases the cover band can actually say a name band opened for them!

I've been to a couple of these (not as part of the band--but it got me thinking). These sort of events do seem to be increasing. So trying to get one of those gigs could turn out to be better than the bar scene.


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