# O/d pedals and tone controls



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i've decided that i will no longer buy an overdrive or distortion pedal that does not have treble, midrange and bass controls.

i have some great o/d pedals, but it always drives me crazy when i try to adjust the "tone" control. for example, i stomp on a specific pedal and discover that my low end has disappeared. no problem, i think, just adjust the "tone" control for more bass. ahhh, but adding bass, when you only have one tone control, means subtracting treble.

at this point, i immediately go into "what the hell were they thinking?" mode.

kqoct


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

david henman said:


> ...i've decided that i will no longer buy an overdrive or distortion pedal that does not have treble, midrange and bass controls.
> 
> i have some great o/d pedals, but it always drives me crazy when i try to adjust the "tone" control. for example, i stomp on a specific pedal and discover that my low end has disappeared. no problem, i think, just adjust the "tone" control for more bass. ahhh, but adding bass, when you only have one tone control, means subtracting treble.
> 
> ...


Funny thing is that I've decided that 3 knobs is enough for me.

I get what you're saying and I've spent ages dialing in tones on pedals myself, but I've come to love the simplicity of some pedals and accept their tonal flaws as part of their character. For example, you'll never catch me without a Tubescreamer. I love the sound, I love the mid-hump and I love what it does to my amp. Brilliant!

However, after having dealt with some pedals with no tone knob at all (Boss OD-1, MXR Dist+, Catalinbread Hyperpak, etc.), I've decided that a tone knob is essential. But the tinker inside me gets way too excited at the prospect of fiddling with something that has 6 knobs and I end up never playing a whole song, but strumming a chord over and over again.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

I was talking about this with a friend recently. There are a few boost/OD/dist. pedals that preserve the full/fuller dynamics of the guitar's tone, but often there's a lot of compression of the low-end. My Tone Bone Classic is bad for this and is equipped with a mid knob, it sounds great for some things, but for a full bassy rhythm sound I use the Dano TOD.

Shawn.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Since I generally make 80% of my pedals, it's a trivial matter for me to do 90% of the tonal adjustment in the design or parts substitution, with a single control to essentially compensate for how much treble the amp is set for. Plus, when you make your own, you can make them cheaply enough that you don't mind having multiples with different voicings or characters.

As much as I like tonal flexibility. I like to aim for something that can do a lot with 3 knobs, or *maybe* 4. Needing 5 to nail a tone just seems like too much work. Something I whipped up a couple years ago (and still have to make a PCB for) is a dual-channel overdrive that feeds the mids and highs through a Tube Screamer-like stage, and feeds the bottom through a Distortion+ like stage. One control is set up to provide complementary drive for each path such that diming the gain on one side means reducing it on the other, and a second allows the user to pan between the two overdrive paths. So you could get lots of mildly overdriven bass with a hint of searing mids in the background, or a throaty balanced tone, or mosquito-tone, or any combination of tonal quality from upper and lower channels. Initially, I had only 3 knobs (drive balance, blend, output level), but opted to add a 4th for global gain adjustment at the front end. I continue to be impressed with the broad palette of tones obtainable.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

mhammer said:


> Since I generally make 80% of my pedals, it's a trivial matter for me to do 90% of the tonal adjustment in the design or parts substitution, with a single control to essentially compensate for how much treble the amp is set for. Plus, when you make your own, you can make them cheaply enough that you don't mind having multiples with different voicings or characters.
> 
> As much as I like tonal flexibility. I like to aim for something that can do a lot with 3 knobs, or *maybe* 4. Needing 5 to nail a tone just seems like too much work. Something I whipped up a couple years ago (and still have to make a PCB for) is a dual-channel overdrive that feeds the mids and highs through a Tube Screamer-like stage, and feeds the bottom through a Distortion+ like stage. One control is set up to provide complementary drive for each path such that diming the gain on one side means reducing it on the other, and a second allows the user to pan between the two overdrive paths. So you could get lots of mildly overdriven bass with a hint of searing mids in the background, or a throaty balanced tone, or mosquito-tone, or any combination of tonal quality from upper and lower channels. Initially, I had only 3 knobs (drive balance, blend, output level), but opted to add a 4th for global gain adjustment at the front end. I continue to be impressed with the broad palette of tones obtainable.


Wow, sounds like an interessing concept! Any clips?


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

david henman said:


> ...i've decided that i will no longer buy an overdrive or distortion pedal that does not have treble, midrange and bass controls.
> 
> i have some great o/d pedals, but it always drives me crazy when i try to adjust the "tone" control. for example, i stomp on a specific pedal and discover that my low end has disappeared. no problem, i think, just adjust the "tone" control for more bass. ahhh, but adding bass, when you only have one tone control, means subtracting treble.
> 
> ...


Maybe the Ethos overdrive is for you: Ethos Overdrive Guitar Pedal


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Ti-Ron said:


> Wow, sounds like an interessing concept! Any clips?


Not yet. It's migrated to the bottom of the built-on-a-board-but-not-installed-in-a-box-yet bin.kqoct


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Ti-Ron said:


> Maybe the Ethos overdrive is for you: Ethos Overdrive Guitar Pedal



...i recall looking into this pedal and being scared off by the price. in fact, the price even scared my cat, and i don't have a cat.


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## megadan (Feb 5, 2006)

Full EQ or no EQ always works for me.

Now a days I tend towards pedals that have an inherently good tone (not just a turn of phase, inherited from the original or 'clean' tone of the instrument) and thus don't need an EQ section. I feel that a pedal set right should be able to be activated and hear NO change in tone. Some examples of pedals that do this very well: my Red Llama clone (two knobs, best overdrive sound in the world), the WMD Fatman filter (try and find your clean tone with and FX25, not gonna happen), my Boss CEB3 chorus. No tone controls needed, and the Fatman essentially IS a giant tone control.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

megadan said:


> Full EQ or no EQ always works for me.
> 
> Now a days I tend towards pedals that have an inherently good tone (not just a turn of phase, inherited from the original or 'clean' tone of the instrument) and thus don't need an EQ section. I feel that a pedal set right should be able to be activated and hear NO change in tone. Some examples of pedals that do this very well: my Red Llama clone (two knobs, best overdrive sound in the world), the WMD Fatman filter (try and find your clean tone with and FX25, not gonna happen), my Boss CEB3 chorus. No tone controls needed, and the Fatman essentially IS a giant tone control.


...a pedal that doesn't change your guitar/amp tone - now that would be ideal!

time for a new thread?

-dh


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

megadan said:


> Full EQ or no EQ always works for me.
> 
> Now a days I tend towards pedals that have an inherently good tone (not just a turn of phase, inherited from the original or 'clean' tone of the instrument) and thus don't need an EQ section. *I feel that a pedal set right should be able to be activated and hear NO change in tone.* Some examples of pedals that do this very well: my Red Llama clone (two knobs, best overdrive sound in the world), the WMD Fatman filter (try and find your clean tone with and FX25, not gonna happen), my Boss CEB3 chorus. No tone controls needed, and the Fatman essentially IS a giant tone control.





david henman said:


> ...a pedal that doesn't change your guitar/amp tone - now that would be ideal!
> 
> time for a new thread?
> 
> -dh


Funny how different we all are. After toying with a bunch of "transparent" pedals, I've come to realize that I _do_ a little bit of tonal change from my OD pedal for a bit of variation. 

When I'm running my YGL3, which I run completely clean, I like the OD to be in the same colour palette in terms of tone, but I like to have the mids pop out a bit (I'm a big TS fan). When I'm running my JTM45, which I set to pretty driven already, I use an Analogman modded TS9DX set to asymmetrical clip, which gives me a different "rhythm" tone from the straight-to-amp tone I use.

I find I like my boosts to be pretty transparent, because I spend a lot of time working on my clean and driven tones and don't want them futzed with, just louder.


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## megadan (Feb 5, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...a pedal that doesn't change your guitar/amp tone - now that would be ideal!
> 
> time for a new thread?
> 
> -dh


I have only come across a few, but there's a big demand for them, I think. I'm not really a guitarists so I don't know but I -think- the whole Klon, Timmy, etc. thing is about transparent overdrives.

The Polish Love/Red Llama/Tube Sound Fuzz is the best I've heard for a fraction of the price of the above pedals.

A good digital delay should have the same property, and the same goes for chorus pedals, pitch shifters, etc. Of course some do it better than others. I don't think there exists a full function octave pedal that has perfect tone (the only perfect tone pitch shifting I've heard is from digital delay rack units with hold functions, of course, this changes the tempo info along with the pitch).


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

megadan said:


> The Polish Love/Red Llama/Tube Sound Fuzz is the best I've heard for a fraction of the price of the above pedals.


...not sure if this is one pedal, or three - could you elaborate? i'd like to check it/them out.

-dh


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

megadan said:


> I have only come across a few, but there's a big demand for them, I think. I'm not really a guitarists so I don't know but I -think- the whole Klon, Timmy, etc. thing is about transparent overdrives.
> 
> The Polish Love/Red Llama/Tube Sound Fuzz is the best I've heard for a fraction of the price of the above pedals..


Don't know about the Polish Love or Tube Sound Fuzz, but the Red Llama is definitely not cheaper than a Timmy. It's long out of production and prices are pretty steep. Also, although I've never tried a Red Llama, I _did_ have a Tone Factor/Mojo Hand Mule for a while, which is supposed to be an identical clone of the Red Llama and I certainly wouldn't call it transparent. The Mule was a great fuzz/tweedy sounding pedal, but very bright. 

The Timmy, on the other hand, is a very, very, VERY good transparent OD. Sure, you pay a premium buying one used, but $200 isn't really all that much considering the $$$ you'll lose buying and selling other pedals. If it's transparency you want, Timmy it up!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I've never heard of the "Polish Love", either, but I can say that the Red Llama is an Anderton EPFM II Tube Sound Fuzz (not the same as the TSF project that appeared in Guitar Player in the late 70's) with a few component value changes.

There was also another pedal (Canadian made, I think) I was asked to fix once called the Tube Wizard or Wizzard, that was also a more direct clone of the Anderton TSF. It was boxed up on what appeared to be a piece of beige plastic plumbing tube, about 6" in diameter, with a metal top and bottom.

All these units use a 4049 hex Inverter chip that contains a bunch of MosFet transistors which are intended to simply convert digital signals from pos-to-neg or neg-to-pos, but can be coaxed into behaving like linear devices. 4049-based overdrives have, to my ears, a pleasing sort of "grunt". You can find them in the original EHX Hot Tubes as well as the Snarling Dogs Tweed-y Dog and Black Dog, and the Yamaha COD-100. hex inverters are also an essential part of the "Laney Sound" in their solid state amps.

Although I like hex inverter-based overdrives, I am less partial to them as fuzzes. If your desired tone verges on Mike Campbell or Keith Richards, hex inverters can be your friend.


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## megadan (Feb 5, 2006)

The Polish Love/Red Llama/Tube Sound Fuzz are all the same pedal (with minor variations), which is why I /ed them all. You guys aren't aware of the Polish Love which is why I mentioned Red Llama, but they are both just derived from the original Tube Sound Fuzz in Craig Anderton's circuit book.

To check it out, build one yourself (it's pretty easy) or if you're not handy with the soldering iron, shoot me a PM - I've built a few custom pedals for people; or you can keep an eye on Talkbass.com classifieds, where the PL comes up sometimes (they were originally built by a TB member from Poland, Bogdan - don't think they're being made any more but since they're unknown pedals there's no inflated cost - they go for $70 - $80).

Hope that clears a few things up.


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## mrfiftyfour (Jun 29, 2008)

mhammer said:


> Since I generally make 80% of my pedals, it's a trivial matter for me to do 90% of the tonal adjustment in the design or parts substitution, with a single control to essentially compensate for how much treble the amp is set for. Plus, when you make your own, you can make them cheaply enough that you don't mind having multiples with different voicings or characters.
> 
> As much as I like tonal flexibility. I like to aim for something that can do a lot with 3 knobs, or *maybe* 4. Needing 5 to nail a tone just seems like too much work. Something I whipped up a couple years ago (and still have to make a PCB for) is a dual-channel overdrive that feeds the mids and highs through a Tube Screamer-like stage, and feeds the bottom through a Distortion+ like stage. One control is set up to provide complementary drive for each path such that diming the gain on one side means reducing it on the other, and a second allows the user to pan between the two overdrive paths. So you could get lots of mildly overdriven bass with a hint of searing mids in the background, or a throaty balanced tone, or mosquito-tone, or any combination of tonal quality from upper and lower channels. Initially, I had only 3 knobs (drive balance, blend, output level), but opted to add a 4th for global gain adjustment at the front end. I continue to be impressed with the broad palette of tones obtainable.


Brilliant! Any chance we could get a peek at that?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Here's the current schematic. IC2a handles the mids and highs, and IC2b handles the lows. The gain of each is determined by the resistance between C14 and ground and C7 and ground. The Drive Balance control adjusts each of those in reciprocal fashion. R5/C4 forms a simple lowpass filter at roughly 880hz, which is further augmented by C6 (rolls off at 408hz) and C9 (rolls off at 225hz). C11/R13 forms a highpass filter rolling off bass at roughly 880hz, which is further augmented by C14 that rolls off bass around 1500hz at max gain and 57hz at min gain.

IC2a uses a Tube Screamer sort of configuration for a slightly different sort of clipping action for the mids/highs, and is followed by a 2-poles filter set to around 7200hz, to take the edge off. IC2b uses clipping diodes to ground in parallel with C9 to roll off unwanted mids. The Mix/Blend pot lets you dump varying amounts of each channel to ground, with an approximate 50/50 blend when the pot is centred.

The final op-amp mixes the two channels and takes off just a little more of the highs to tame the frizzies.

And there you go. The design shown has a fixed gain of just under 4x on the input stage, so in the functioning circuit, I added a 3 position toggle for unity gain, and two more gain settings, just to give a little more control over tone. The circuit works as shown. Let me know if you need more of an explanation:


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