# steppin on my last nerve



## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

one thing that's really starting to get on my nerves lately. seems like every time i turn around when someone complains about the way things are ridiculously priced, someone says something to the effect of "well, we all have a right to make a profit" well no shit sherlock, but that doesn't give everyone free reign to gouge the fuck out of everybody. nobody has the right to overcharge for something. and before someone comes along saying _ewww what the market will bear, blah-fucking blah bla.. _just shut the fuck up. 
if you price gouge with plywood in florida after a storm, you go to jail. but sell someone a cd that cost you 50 cents to make, and charge $20 for it, and that's ok. it's time reasonable limits were set. it's obscene that people can have a higher net worth than a country, when there are others who work their asses off for pennies.
*bill gates has a net worth higher than 140 countries.* how is that even tolerated? and he's certainly not alone. think about that the next time you see someone you like/love denied something they need, because they can't afford it.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

"He who has the gold makes the rules". 

re: $0.50 CD for $20, usually the content on that CD cost a *lot* more than $0.50/unit to make...


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

I don't disagree with you AT ALL on this one Cheezy. With that said, I think it's important to distinguish _necessities_ from _luxuries_ when discussing pricing, which you've done to some extent here.

Regarding plywood in post-hurricane FL, life altering medication, etc, I'm totally with you about it being criminal to overcharge as folks have to purchase out of necessity. With CDs, ipods, boutique gear & the like, folks can easily live without it and have a clear choice to walk if the price doesn't work for them. For that reason then, I do view those types of commodities (and thus the right to price them wherever one likes) as altogether different. That's my perspective at least...

Steve


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Amen. What ever happened to working and honest day and charging an honest dollar for it?? Society has grown to think that the standard of living must include such excesses, and as much as I fight the concept, I too fall into the "want more" category. 75 years ago you were lucky to afford ONE musical instrument. 30 years ago, homes in the good neighborhoods were slightly fancy had a 2 car garage. Now, its 3 or 4 car garages, stone, stucco and circular driveways. The powerball lottery has people clamoring all over the place in hopes of winning because they think it will bring happiness, yet the people living in shanty's across the world might actually be happier....


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

this is a good place for me to discuss the GREED aspect of companies.
I'll use Apple for my example.
I have heard a couple of times that it costs Apple about 8 dollars in production costs to make an Ipad.
We all know what these units sell for in the open market these days.

The Greed factor comes in when Apples decides to move its production to China.
There is such a high profit margin in these items that I see no reason for Apple not to have production factories in North America to cover the North American sales. 
I'm not saying there should be no Chinese factories BUT if China has 20% of the Apple sales then it should only be allowed to produce 20% of Apple products.

JUst a silly thought cause corporations thru their money influence into politics really control anything that has to do with their bottom line.
I know and understand that but it was fun pretending that common sense and not GREED would win out some day.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

GTmaker said:


> this is a good place for me to discuss the GREED aspect of companies.
> I'll use Apple for my example.
> I have heard a couple of times that it costs Apple about 8 dollars in production costs to make an Ipad.
> We all know what these units sell for in the open market these days.
> ...



And look what Apple did with the Iphone/|Ipod in China. They refused to let the workers use alcohol to wipe the glass before assembly. Instead they used a very toxic product that caused many illnesses and deaths that ruined lives (worker and family) All for the sake of profit. SJ got what he deserved. 

I'd rather see manufacturing stay on this continent, but I don't begrudge workers overseas from providing for their families. I do feel that our import laws be changed so that any country wishing to export product here, does so under the very same regulations that our manufacturing abides by. (Same environmental and health and safety policies, no child labour etc.)


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

One of the under-recognized consequences of globalization is that fewer and fewer of us make something and sell it direct to the customer. The reality is that there are MANY steps and stages in between, and everybody wants their cut. Sometimes, yes, you have the Martin Shkrelis of the world, but more often there are a huge number of participants. Even when the last person in line seems to hike up the price by an unreasonable amount, that price hike covers not just the production and shipping costs but the costs of operating the physical facility, paying staff, paying insurance for the place, and lord knows whatever other non-coke-'n-hookers costs are associated.

I'm not pleading for sympathy for the wealthy and price-gougers. I'm saying price-point is often more complicated than we realize.

We have had this debate in the pedal-maker context many times over at the diystompbox forum, over the years. "I can build that pedal for $20 in parts, so why is it retailing for $269? Bloody robbery."

Well, the person making the pedal has to pay rent on the lousy garage or basement apartment they're renting, and insurance on their business as wellas whatever business-related expenses are attached (purchasing equipment, attending NAMM, advertising, website-development, etc.) How many units do they expect to move each month? Let us say 400 (which is a LOT for a boutique maker). Maybe those 400 pedals cost them [email protected] in parts to make. If they charge [email protected], that's technically $24,000 in profit. I say technically because some of that is getting returned, if there are employees, they need to get paid, landlords need to get paid, insurance needs to get paid, there needs to be a "float" to be able to order parts in enough volume tht it *will* end up costing $20 to make one, and so on. Out of that, the maker gets maybe $6k. That will earn them an annual income of just over $70k, which isn't bad, but they still have to pay income tax. And remember, I'm describing someone who is doing well. Zachary Vex has already described for us the years he was living out of his car and driving from city to city to get two Super-Hard-Ons into a boutique shop in that city. The fat years still have to recoup the debts of the lean years.

And we still haven't gotten to the eventual retailer and their costs.

So, somebody IS getting rich somewhere, but it tends to be more from the sheer volume of all transactions/sales than from the seeming gouging on single items. It's complicated, that's for sure.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

mhammer said:


> One of the under-recognized consequences of globalization is that fewer and fewer of us make something and sell it direct to the customer. The reality is that there are MANY steps and stages in between, and everybody wants their cut. Sometimes, yes, you have the Martin Shkrelis of the world, but more often there are a huge number of participants. Even when the last person in line seems to hike up the price by an unreasonable amount, that price hike covers not just the production and shipping costs but the costs of operating the physical facility, paying staff, paying insurance for the place, and lord knows whatever other non-coke-'n-hookers costs are associated.
> 
> I'm not pleading for sympathy for the wealthy and price-gougers. I'm saying price-point is often more complicated than we realize.
> 
> ...


I was going to write a much more long winded version of this, but you hit the nail on the head.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

My husband is on cancer meds and they are ridiculously priced! One script was $275 for 30 pills! Monthly!! We have NO benefits!


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Lola said:


> My husband is on cancer meds and they are ridiculously priced! One script was $275 for 30 pills! Monthly!! We have NO benefits!


Oh jeez...feeling your pain...that is not a good position to be in


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

How about the fuel prices?

Lowest price per barrel in what, 15 years, but the price still sits above $1.00 up here anyway.
Sudbury has been gouged throughout its existence because there are some people here making good money (a small percentage, comparitively).
You drive east to Sturgeon Falls and the gas prices are consistently less, by a good margin.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

sulphur said:


> How about the fuel prices?
> 
> Lowest price per barrel in what, 15 years, but the price still sits above $1.00 up here anyway.
> Sudbury has been gouged throughout its existence because there are some people here making good money (a small percentage, comparitively).
> You drive east to Sturgeon Falls and the gas prices are consistently less, by a good margin.


Just wait and see how fast the prices jump at the pump once oil starts going back up. It will make our heads spin and there will be all kinds of bullshit spewing forth in justification.

Having said that I see that some of the sanctions on Iran are going to be lifted. That should introduce a ton of oil to an already flooded market. It's going to get nasty.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Is the commercial system morally bankrupt? Yes. Does it need to go? Yes. Will it? How?


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## Stonehead (Nov 12, 2013)

Martin Shkreli the epitome of what has gone so terribly wrong with our "Free Market" system. It is this callous attitude towards our fellow man and insatiable greed that infiltrates every level of business in our society. While these attitudes and behaviors our condoned, encouraged and rewarded by business men alike there is no hope of it ever changing from the direction it is heading.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

sulphur said:


> How about the fuel prices?
> 
> Lowest price per barrel in what, 15 years, but the price still sits above $1.00 up here anyway.
> Sudbury has been gouged throughout its existence because there are some people here making good money (a small percentage, comparitively).
> You drive east to Sturgeon Falls and the gas prices are consistently less, by a good margin.


you probably don't want to hear this but cruising around Edmonton yesterday, the best price I saw was $0.725. Nobody was over $0.79. Great, but I would much rather pay $1.09 for gas and have our dollar back on par again.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Lincoln said:


> I would much rather pay $1.09 for gas and have our dollar back on par again.


so what you are saying is, "_i would gladly pay money to make my money be worth more_". i'm no wizard obviously, but i totally don't see how that works



Steadfastly said:


> Is the commercial system morally bankrupt? Yes. Does it need to go? Yes. Will it? How?


it'll eventually go far enough that humanity will revolt, or maybe some natural disaster comes along hits the reset button on mankind.

it's a balancing act. go as far as you can without going too far all at once. over time, it's like a boa constrictor. eventually you get to the point where struggle is pointless, and you just get swallowed. or you wake up in the nick of time and fight back.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The CBC radio news-comedy show "Because News" had a contest for the panel this morning, where the object was to guess whether the item named cost more, or less, than a barrel of oil. One of the items was a barrel of Coca-Cola. Turns out it costs more than a barrel of oil. They shopped around for the cheapest price they could find on a 2 litre bottle, and at 99 cents it would cost about $80 to fill up an oil barrel with Coke, compared to the $45Cdn it costs for the same volume of oil.


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## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

I guess oil isn't as scarce a resource as we were led to think. Now that the OPEC cartel isn't able to control the price, we are seeing what it's really worth.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> so what you are saying is, "_i would gladly pay money to make my money be worth more_". i'm no wizard obviously, but i totally don't see how that works


what I was trying to say was, we see the price of oil reflected mainly in gasoline. While on the other hand, the value of our dollar we see reflected in pretty much everything else we buy. If I had the choice to make, I would pick high dollar/high oil price over low dollar/low oil price any day.

I would love to see this low dollar of ours force us to "internalize" & rekindle or revive all kinds of dead industries and services within Canada. Turn us back into a place where goods are manufactured. I can't see this happening though, there is no money in it for the "big boys" and they hold all the strings. 

As crazy as it sounds, I blame pro sports for the unstoppable runaway of wages & bonuses now enjoyed by the elite 1% in the business world. They saw what players were getting paid and said, "wtf, I'm worth that and more!".


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

And on a side note, the LED lightbulb I put in the FIRST WEEK OF DECEMBER died today. I believe that's six weeks, and NOT the 22.8 years of life the package said it has.


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## Wileyone (Jul 23, 2011)

cheezyridr said:


> so what you are saying is, "_i would gladly pay money to make my money be worth more_". i'm no wizard obviously, but i totally don't see how that works.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

Where will ISIS get their funding now that a barrel of oil is almost worthless?


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

ed2000 said:


> Where will ISIS get their funding now that a barrel of oil is almost worthless?



I'm sure the US will still find a way to fund them.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

butterknucket said:


> I'm sure the US will still find a way to fund them.


or some other country. Isis was foolish to get on the bad side of both Putin and the US.


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

Back to the topic of price gauging. 

Anyone's jaw hit the floor in the produce section lately?

I think It was 107.1 I was listening to yesterday when they were talking about the price of cauliflower. It's 8 bucks a head! One listener tweeted in "I found one for 7"!


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## skilsaw (Nov 4, 2014)

Stopped at the grocery story on my way home today to pick up milk, apples, oranges, bananas and a deli sandwich for lunch. $35.00 !!! Not too long ago, that was the cost of my "Big Weekly Grocery Shop."


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Budda said:


> "He who has the gold makes the rules". re: $0.50 CD for $20, usually the content on that CD cost a *lot* more than $0.50/unit to make...



Aye. In some cases the content is priceless!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Glad I don't like cauliflower! Damn!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

mhammer said:


> The CBC radio news-comedy show "Because News" had a contest for the panel this morning, where the object was to guess whether the item named cost more, or less, than a barrel of oil. One of the items was a barrel of Coca-Cola. Turns out it costs more than a barrel of oil. They shopped around for the cheapest price they could find on a 2 litre bottle, and at 99 cents it would cost about $80 to fill up an oil barrel with Coke, compared to the $45Cdn it costs for the same volume of oil.


That was likely because of the bottle, bottling, shipping, marketing, etc. If it was all put in one barrel rather than a bunch of 2 litre bottles, the price would come down considerably. It may cost more than oil but I am betting it would be close. Also, they are comparing the retail price of a product against the wholesale price. The comparison is not even close to being a fair one.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Um, you DID notice I said *comedy* show. They are necessarily going to go for hyperbole.

I'm reminded of an old Jewish joke. It seems the son of the "richest man in the village" was going to have his bar mitzvah, and the townsfolk were expecting a royal feast at the celebration. When the day arrived, they found pitchers of water, and nothing more. "Brother Mendel", one of them asked, "We have been your friend and neighbour for so many years, we thought there would be something, well, a little more 'festive' at such an event. Why water?".

Mendel responded, "When I thought about this celebration, my first instinct was that I would spare no expense. I have done so well in life, and all of you have helped me along my way, so you deserve nothing but the finest. I thought here we are so many miles inland in our little village, I would serve a beautiful meal of fish. So, I went to the fishmonger in the next big village over, and asked him 'So, how good is your fish?'. He told me "My fish? It's so good, it's sweet like sugar. I thought 'Hmm, he's comparing it to sugar and I know sugar is cheaper. I could provide even more for all my friends and neighbours. Now THAT's a celebration!"

"So then I went to the sugar merchant, and I asked him 'Tell me, how good is your sugar?'. The sugar merchant said 'My sugar is of the finest quality. It is like honey.' I thought 'Hmm, honey is cheaper than sugar. I could buy even more and it would be an even _bigger_ celebration!'. So I went to the honey merchant, asked him, and he compared his honey to the finest oil. I then went to the oil -maker and when I inquired about his oil, he told me it was so pure it poured like crystal clear water. Each one tried to impress me by comparing their product to something else that was even less expensive and allowed me to provide more. I thought 'If the ultimate comparison here is water, then obviously that's what I should provide for all my friends and neighbours if I _really_ want to put out a spread.' So that's why you have water, and _plenty_ of it. Enjoy!"


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

cheezyridr said:


> one thing that's really starting to get on my nerves lately. seems like every time i turn around when someone complains about the way things are ridiculously priced, someone says something to the effect of "well, we all have a right to make a profit" well no shit sherlock, but that doesn't give everyone free reign to gouge the fuck out of everybody. nobody has the right to overcharge for something. and before someone comes along saying _ewww what the market will bear, blah-fucking blah bla.. _just shut the fuck up.


You might not like it, but that is the truth. People can charge whatever they want for whatever they are selling. If they are asking too much, nobody will buy it. If people are buying it then it isn't priced too high. You might not like the price, but you are under no obligation to make the purchase.




> it's time reasonable limits were set.


And who decides what those reasonable limits are?




> it's obscene that people can have a higher net worth than a country, when there are others who work their asses off for pennies.


Maybe if those others had invented something that millions wanted, they would be rich too. Maybe if they had gotten a better education or learned a skill that was required (ie. learned a trade) they wouldn't be working for little money.


*
*


> * bill gates has a net worth higher than 140 countries.* how is that even tolerated?


He started a company offering something that people wanted or needed. Are you saying his wealth should be seized? Would you like to go to a Communist system? Not a whole hell of a lot of innovation came out of the Soviet Union.............




> think about that the next time you see someone you like/love denied something they need, because they can't afford it.


Who decides what someone needs? You cannot legislate equality of outcome. Some people will be more successful than others, that is simply a fact of life. People should not be punished for being successful. Why should someone who sat on their arse and did nothing to improve themselves have the same outcome as someone like me who spent a decade in university earning multiple degrees? The answer is that they shouldn't.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Lincoln said:


> As crazy as it sounds, I blame pro sports for the unstoppable runaway of wages & bonuses now enjoyed by the elite 1% in the business world. They saw what players were getting paid and said, "wtf, I'm worth that and more!".



They were earning high salaries (comparatively) long before pro athletes were so don't blame athletes.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

colchar said:


> You might not like it, but that is the truth. People can charge whatever they want for whatever they are selling. If they are asking too much, nobody will buy it. If people are buying it then it isn't priced too high. You might not like the price, but you are under no obligation to make the purchase.
> 
> not accurate in the least. do you feel your insurance premiums are priced fairly? probably not. _everyone i've ever talked to_ feels that their insurance is too high. so if most people feel it's too expensive, why is insurance the strongest industry in the world? because you are required by law to have it. you are OBLIGATED TO PURCHASE IT. that's one example. surely now you can see by this ONE examle, your argument is hollow.
> 
> ...


again, your argument shows a complete lack of thought before you hit the post button. how many people have no access to the education that separates the haves from the have-nots? it's their fault for being born into the kind of poverty that causes perpetual hardships? why bother to take in syrian refugees? they fucked their country, so why should we help them? is that what you're telling us? 
are you saying a doctor works harder than a plumber or cab driver? i assert that the people who build our homes, care for our children, and deliver our goods to market, are no less important to society than any doctor or entrepreneur. if they didn't exist, wouldn't we still have huge needs pertaining to quality of life? 
they are not paid nearly the same. i did 17 years of school plus 5 yrs apprenticeship to do sheetmetal. 
why don't i make the money a doctor does? if i do my job wrong, people can die from it. having hvac in today's society is every bit as important as having healthcare. we could not continue without it. in fact, the doctor could not do any of the things he does, without me having already done properly, what i do. 
my assertion is that there is some point in one's financial state where MORAL OBLIGATION TO OUR FELLOW MAN should cause one to surmise that they have what they need to live comfortably, and the amassing of further wealth beyond that point is not only detrimental to society as a whole, but also detrimental to one's self. you can't hear the cries of the people when you're peering down from an ivory tower. 

oh god of earth and altar
bow down and hear our cry
our earthly rulers falter
our people drift and die
the walls of gold entomb us
the swords of scorn divide
take not thy thunder from us
but take away our pride


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## skilsaw (Nov 4, 2014)

cheezyridr said:


> again, your argument shows a complete lack of thought before you hit the post button. how many people have no access to the education that separates the haves from the have-nots? it's their fault for being born into the kind of poverty that causes perpetual hardships? why bother to take in syrian refugees? they fucked their country, so why should we help them? is that what you're telling us?
> are you saying a doctor works harder than a plumber or cab driver? i assert that the people who build our homes, care for our children, and deliver our goods to market, are no less important to society than any doctor or entrepreneur. if they didn't exist, wouldn't we still have huge needs pertaining to quality of life?
> they are not paid nearly the same. i did 17 years of school plus 5 yrs apprenticeship to do sheetmetal.
> why don't i make the money a doctor does? if i do my job wrong, people can die from it. having hvac in today's society is every bit as important as having healthcare. we could not continue without it. in fact, the doctor could not do any of the things he does, without me having already done properly, what i do.
> my assertion is that there is some point in one's financial state where MORAL OBLIGATION TO OUR FELLOW MAN should cause one to surmise that they have what they need to live comfortably, and the amassing of further wealth beyond that point is not only detrimental to society as a whole, but also detrimental to one's self. you can't hear the cries of the people when you're peering down from an ivory tower.


Cutting edge editorial Cheezy! Awesome. 
The CBC will need to find a replacement for Rex Murphy when he pops off.
Maybe you should apply for the job. I bet he makes more than a sheetmetal worker.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

The price of oil increased almost tenfold from 1972 - 1979, prompting Trudeau Senior's National Energy Program which did eventually decrease the price of oil but destroyed Alberta's economy in the process and redistributed a whole bunch of money Eastward and into government coffers.

As well as oil being required for fuel we must also remember that it is the prime component in making plastic - and everything from carpets to cars is made from plastic these days.....................


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

cheezyridr said:


> again, your argument shows a complete lack of thought before you hit the post button.



Actually no, it does not. What shows a lack of thought is your rant that people should be limited in what they earn (which is, essentially, what you are saying). If your employer came to you tomorrow and said that you earn too much would you be willing to take a pay cut? Nah, didn't think so.




> how many people have no access to the education that separates the haves from the have-nots?


We have state funded education in Canada so everyone has access to it. When it comes to post-secondary education, if they_ really_ want to attend they will find a way to pay for it - like I did. I worked while in undergrad, at times full-time while in school full-time, and also worked part-time while in grad school even though you get paid to go to grad school. Others can do the same or they can learn a trade and earn while they learn. 




> it's their fault for being born into the kind of poverty that causes perpetual hardships?


Again, we have state funded education in Canada. And I knew plenty of people in university who were poor - food bank use among students has skyrocketed in the last decade. Those people managed to get educations despite being poor so others can do the same or learn a trade.




> why bother to take in syrian refugees? they fucked their country, so why should we help them? is that what you're telling us?


WTF do Syrian refugees have to do with this?





> are you saying a doctor works harder than a plumber or cab driver?


In some ways yes, in others no. But it took that doctor more than a decade to qualify as a doctor so they deserve to be paid correspondingly. A plumber, on the other hand, qualifies in four years and earns a salary as they do so - and I say this as the son of a plumber/pipefitter.

And due to our socialized medicine, here in Canada we already put limits on what doctors can earn. Doctors can not just charge whatever they want. And not only are they limited in how much they charge, they are limited in how many patients they can treat. The current fight between the government and doctors in Ontario is proof of that. 





> i assert that the people who build our homes, care for our children, and deliver our goods to market, are no less important to society than any doctor or entrepreneur.


And I assert that you are delusional. Yes, those jobs are important but any monkey can care for children. Not everyone can become a heart surgeon.




> if they didn't exist, wouldn't we still have huge needs pertaining to quality of life?


Not necessarily. 




> they are not paid nearly the same.


Nor should they be - any monkey can babysit kids and most anyone can learn to drive the trucks required to get our goods to market. Not everyone can become a doctor. 




> i did 17 years of school plus 5 yrs apprenticeship to do sheetmetal.
> why don't i make the money a doctor does?


Because your skills and education are not comparable to those of a doctor, nor is what you contribute to society as there are others who can do your job but only a finite number who can do the doctor's job. I am not handy/mechanically inclined but I bet I could learn to work with sheet metal if provided the right training. Despite being intelligent and having multiple university degrees I could not be trained to be a doctor.




> if i do my job wrong, people can die from it. having hvac in today's society is every bit as important as having healthcare. we could not continue without it. in fact, the doctor could not do any of the things he does, without me having already done properly, what i do.


What you fail to understand is that your skills are more easily taught than the doctor's skills.




> my assertion is that there is some point in one's financial state where MORAL OBLIGATION TO OUR FELLOW MAN should cause one to surmise that they have what they need to live comfortably, and the amassing of further wealth beyond that point is not only detrimental to society as a whole, but also detrimental to one's self.


What a ludicrously utopian and naive view. The politics of envy is strong in this one Obi-Wan.

And I would wager that you only believe that when it comes to others but not to yourself. Tell you what - send me a PM and tell me your bank balance. I will also tell you mine. If you have more money in the bank than I do then put your money where your mouth is and give me whatever money from your account is required to make us equal. After all, if you have what you need to live comfortably any amassing of further wealth by you is not only detrimental to society as a whole, but to you as well.

So when should I expect the PM outlining your bank balance?


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

colchar said:


> Actually no, it does not. What shows a lack of thought is your rant that people should be limited in what they earn (which is, essentially, what you are saying). If your employer came to you tomorrow and said that you earn too much would you be willing to take a pay cut? Nah, didn't think so.
> 
> *i never once said people should be limited in what they make*. i said that there should be a point where you don't continue to make more, because *you* realize it's obscene to have a net worth higher than the gdp of 140 countries. if you're pushin 70 what do you need several billion dollars for? what is the point of sitting on money and never using it ever, in you're life time or that of your children? at the very least, spend it, don't sit on it. if you sit on it no one else can ever have it. do you think there is an endless supply of money? the more you have, the easier it is to get.
> the less you have, the harder it is to get. if a tiny fraction owns most of the money and they sit on it, it's a HUGE pile of money that no amount of college education on the part of a kid in bogata is going to free up. amassing giant sums of money (which is what i'm really talking about here before i went on all the bunny trails) isn't about having good bread on your table.
> ...


a rather trite, i think. you take the whole thing as a personal attack, and it's not. i'm not telling you to give all your money to homeless people. i don't give them a nickle myself. i'm saying that greed is outta control. i'm saying as human beings we should all, every one of us, have a limit to how much wealth we sit on. if i won the lottery tomorrow for $50 mill, i couldn't possibly spend all that money on myself before i die. i don't do coccaine. or drink, i don't go to casinos or chase whores. i don't want a giant garage full of ferraris. i don't want a hollywood masion. what would be the point of me holding on to $50 million dollars? at best i might spend 3 mill before i kick off. why sit on the rest? why not let others have it, who will in turn spend it, so others still can have that same cash? what's warren buffett gonna do with 66 billion dollars? he couldn't live out his remaining 10 or so years on earth with say, a billion? at the very least, if he spent it on things, that cash would be available to others. when he sits on it, he reduces the amount of money available to all other humans in the world.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

cheezyridr said:


> i'm not telling you to give all your money to homeless people. i don't give them a nickle myself. i'm saying that greed is outta control.


Read that sentence again. Then again. Then one more time after that.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Budda said:


> Read that sentence again. Then again. Then one more time after that.



i know what i said. that doesn't make me greedy. it just means i know more about being in that situation than you do, and i have known more of them than you do. personal experience is more useful than opinions fed to you by social media, every single time. there's a big difference between being disadvantaged, and CHOOSING a lifestyle that contributes *zero* to humanity. yes, i know there is a small fraction of the homeless who are mental defectives who cannot do for themselves.
they are a small fraction of the whole. doubt me? any time you like, we can tour the financial district right here in toronto, together. for 2 hours, i'll give you *3* points for every homeless you can point out who is a mental defective. you give me just a single point for every one i can point out who is not, and has obviously chosen to live that way. you win, i buy lunch for you and one homeless guy. i win, you buy me lunch and a set of strings. sound fair? we can offer opinions all day long but it doesn't mean jack until someone can back it up.

either way, for once i would like to stay more on topic. dealing with every bunny trail posted by each user solves nothing and only muddies the discussion. the topic is my opinion that people have a moral obligation to set limits for themselves when it comes to profiting from another.
that sitting on huge piles of money is morally wrong because you remove the ability of the rest of the world to earn it, and use it. if any of you think the current system we have now is fair, why is it that you don't run your household in the same fashion? do you charge your children room and board? do you charge them for their clothes, and all the other goods and services you provide? if there's nothing wrong with unlimited profiting from others who need and have little/no resources then why don't you do the same with your family?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

"The Canada Mortgage and Housing Corporation reported that 27% of people living with mental illness in 2005 were in core housing need, compared with 15% of people in the Canadian population as a whole.42 The MHCC estimated that, in 2011, 520,700 people with mental illness were inadequately housed and that a substantial number of these people were homeless.43

In the homeless population in Canada – generally estimated to be between 150,000 to 300,000 individuals44 – the rate of mental health problems is higher than it is in the general population.45* Studies estimate that between 25% and 50% of the homeless population in Canada has a mental health problem or illness,*46 although it has been suggested that the rate may be as high as *b74%*.47 In a 2011 report, the MHCC suggested that 119,800 homeless people had mental health problems.48"

http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/ResearchPublications/2014-11-e.htm

That's from a government website. Your choice to not help the homeless on the assumption that most of them *chose* to be on the street *is* greedy. This is not to say that you don't help out anyone, nor to say that you're a bad person. But this is how greed works, and your actions and assumptions on this one are the grassroots version of not re-distributing wealth. The big difference is the amount of wealth available to you versus business moguls. Maybe they were raised poor, and saw a lot of undeserving people, and vowed to keep money strictly for themselves and their family. Anyone else who wanted to be that rich can just "go out and earn it".


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## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

Everyone begging on the street has a sad story. Some have hopeless addictions, others have mental illness. Many have both. Many were abused. It's a sad life, no one thinking clearly would choose that. I'm not sure of many things in life but this I am.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

I have to say, I do take issue with the term "mental defective" to describe those struggling with mental health issues. That kind of language serves only to stigmatize and further marginalize people who essentially have health problems, as all of us do at some point in our lives.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

StevieMac said:


> I have to say, I do take issue with the term "mental defective" to describe those struggling with mental health issues. That kind of language serves only to stigmatize and further marginalize people who essentially have health problems, as all of us do at some point in our lives.


As a parent of a 23 year old mentally challenged adult, I agree.

Maybe I'm a bit sensitive about it, but when I hear words like "retard" or jokes about riding the short bus, it's like a little blade in my side.

No, I didn't see those references in this thread, but the exact words aren't mportant.

I think a person should be able to earn as much as he can, as much as the market will bear as they say.

The funny thing is, I'm not driven by the urge to get rich. I really don't obsess about money. I've been lucky to fnd a good career that has provided a good life so far, but I'm just not ambitious in the sense of clawing my way to the top (or middle).


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

overall, I find things are more affordable than ever (not going to say "cheaper' because that's an overly simplistic way to look at it). clothes, computers, etc. Looking around the average north americans cluttered homes, theres certainly no difficulty in being able to buy stuff. and our waistlines indicate we're not wanting for food either.

what gets on my last nerve is all the grumblings about "...this economy..." as if things are currently so desperate. Meanwhile, its truly a struggle to hire tradespeople to do work...theyre all either too busy or simply unmotivated, or just plain old flake out when you book them. If things really were that desperate as ppl like to say, youd think workers would jump at the chance to take your money. I can literally make a list of about 10 trades/projects that I have on hold because I cant find anyone available to do them.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> As a parent of a 23 year old mentally challenged adult, I agree.
> 
> Maybe I'm a bit sensitive about it, but when I hear words like "retard" or jokes about riding the short bus, it's like a little blade in my side.
> 
> ...


interesting, for some reason, I thought you were already somewhere around the upper middle of your organization, which in one as large as yours, is no small feat and pretty impressive.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Diablo said:


> interesting, for some reason, I thought you were already somewhere around the upper middle of your organization, which in one as large as yours, is no small feat and pretty impressive.


I'm a sales manager for North America. I'll be promoted this summer. After that I'll be about as high as I want to be on the corporate ladder.

But it was a slow climb. I've been with this company for 22 years.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

cheezyridr said:


> a rather trite, i think. you take the whole thing as a personal attack, and it's not. i'm not telling you to give all your money to homeless people. i don't give them a nickle myself. i'm saying that greed is outta control. i'm saying as human beings we should all, every one of us, have a limit to how much wealth we sit on. if i won the lottery tomorrow for $50 mill, i couldn't possibly spend all that money on myself before i die. i don't do coccaine. or drink, i don't go to casinos or chase whores. i don't want a giant garage full of ferraris. i don't want a hollywood masion. what would be the point of me holding on to $50 million dollars? at best i might spend 3 mill before i kick off. why sit on the rest? why not let others have it, who will in turn spend it, so others still can have that same cash? what's warren buffett gonna do with 66 billion dollars? he couldn't live out his remaining 10 or so years on earth with say, a billion? at the very least, if he spent it on things, that cash would be available to others. when he sits on it, he reduces the amount of money available to all other humans in the world.


Many of us here collect guitars. And amps and pedals. Lots of people collect watches, all sorts of things.

When you have so much money that you can buy any of these collections - the largest in the world if you want - there is only one thing left to collect. Billions.

To some extent, I think this becomes a competition for the ultra-rich. As perverse as it sounds to us mere mortals.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> Many of us here collect guitars. And amps and pedals. Lots of people collect watches, all sorts of things.
> 
> When you have so much money that you can buy any of these collections - the largest in the world if you want - there is only one thing left to collect. Billions.
> 
> To some extent, I think this becomes a competition for the ultra-rich. As perverse as it sounds to us mere mortals.


it actually doesn't sound perverse to me at all, its one of the sadder parts of being human...no matter what we have, most of us still wish we had more, at least at certain times of our lives.
when we're renting an apt, we look at that person with a 2000sq ft home and think, if I only could have that, Id be happy. Then, 10yrs later we have that home....but 5yrs later we think its too small, , or outdated, or on too busy a street, and we're looking at something else again...and the cycle repeats itself. Apply it to cars, guitars, money, jobs, relationships, etc.
many of us just don't live in the moment and enjoy what we have.
the only thing that changes, is the scale for which we operate on.

until the day comes that the things we took the most for granted, our health, our loved ones, are gone....then we say we'd trade it all for them.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Yep, I remember being 13 and walking to school - dreaming of owning a car. Then I got one. That was the beginning of my entry to the consumer culture. It's been a escalator ride ever since. 

I've recently come to the conclusion that capitalism is doomed to fail. "The weak are meat, the strong will eat." Eventually there will be 3 corporations, as competitors consuming the weak. And then what kind of competition will we have?


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## skilsaw (Nov 4, 2014)

High/Deaf said:


> Yep, I remember being 13 and walking to school - dreaming of owning a car. Then I got one. That was the beginning of my entry to the consumer culture. It's been a escalator ride ever since.
> 
> I've recently come to the conclusion that capitalism is doomed to fail. "The weak are meat, the strong will eat." Eventually there will be 3 corporations, as competitors consuming the weak. And then what kind of competition will we have?


 Freaking scary, man! I hope TARGET survives. Shit, no! They're fucked already. It is happening. We're doomed!


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

Canadians get unfairly gouged on many things. The periphery of my kitchen is illuminated by a ring of soft lighting. I noticed one bulb had burned out, so I eventually found a local supplier who wanted $7.50 for it. The bulb is the size of a small peanut!

Last night I found an online US supplier who is selling them for $1.79 US. I put in an order for 24 to last me the next 10 years. So much for buying local.

I also find a lot of gouging on things older people use....low dose aspirin and hearing aid batteries for example. I buy about six bottles of the low dose aspirin when in the US and buy my wife's hearing aid batteries from microbattery.com at a fraction of Canadian prices, and they come in duty free as medical! Microbattery is also a good bet for tuner batteries.

In _most cases_ people generally get ripped off only if they allow the seller to get away with it. As Smokey Robinson once said "Ya better shop around."


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Krelf said:


> Canadians get unfairly gouged on many things. The periphery of my kitchen is illuminated by a ring of soft lighting. I noticed one bulb had burned out, so I eventually found a local supplier who wanted $7.50 for it. The bulb is the size of a small peanut!
> 
> Last night I found an online US supplier who is selling them for $1.79 US. I put in an order for 24 to last me the next 10 years. So much for buying local.
> 
> ...


I agree with your post and your thoughts on ripping off the older generation is what is happening more and more. Many of these people do not use the internet so they can't check prices and are easily ripped off. The heat pump business here in NB is one that I find irritating. Being in the HVAC/R business for a large part of my life, I know what these things cost and what it takes to put one in. An organized person can make $2000.00 a day and maybe more if they can get installations close to one another. That is gouging and greed of very high order.


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