# Thoughts on buying custom build without hearing the guitar first



## lyric girl (Sep 4, 2008)

I was just curious to get folks opinions on this subject. Recently, I had the opportunity to get a Larrivee small body acoustic that was being custom built by Mr. Larrivee for members of the Larrivee Forum.

Although this guitar still interests me, even after ordering and canceling my order, my big hang up about it, was not being able to hear one before I had to commit to buying one. My wood choice is Italian Spruce/Rosewood.

Just curious on what you guys have to say.

Many thanks,

Lynda

PS Starbuck, I know what you have to say. :smile:


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

lyric girl said:


> I was just curious to get folks opinions on this subject. Recently, I had the opportunity to get a Larrivee small body acoustic that was being custom built by Mr. Larrivee for members of the Larrivee Forum.
> 
> Although this guitar still interests me, even after ordering and canceling my order, my big hang up about it, was not being able to hear one before I had to commit to buying one. My wood choice is Italian Spruce/Rosewood.
> 
> ...


I've commissioned two custom builds and have been very happy both times (Heatley Tradition and Rizsanyi OM). That being said, there is always a chance that you won't bond with a guitar that you haven't had a chance to try in person.

It's definitely a leap of faith....I wouldn't suggest going this way if it's going to cause you great stress.


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## lyric girl (Sep 4, 2008)

Scottone said:


> I've commissioned two custom builds and have been very happy both times (Heatley Tradition and Rizsanyi OM). That being said, there is always a chance that you won't bond with a guitar that you haven't had a chance to try in person.
> 
> It's definitely a leap of faith....I wouldn't suggest going this way if it's going to cause you great stress.


Scott,

It has already caused me GREAT stress as I have waffled on this deal more times than I can count now. 9kkhhd


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

*First ask yourself*

Why did you waffel on the deal is what you need to really ask yourself, yes it was a lot of money ( got the e-mail myself too ) but you know the builder by reputation and you must know a certain amount about the woods you selected for the build before you cancelled.
If not for the insane amount of guitars I already have I might have considered it myself, its a great deal, but you must be sure thats what you want to do, look buying any hand made is some risk that maybe you might not truely like it, but thats why we do the research on builders and then decide if we are willing to risk that much money, its a tough call that only you can make Lyric Girl and if you aren't ready for it, pass on this one I am sure there is another one coming your way soon.Good hunting, and no its not easy, but then what is.Ship


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## lyric girl (Sep 4, 2008)

Ship of fools said:


> Why did you waffel on the deal is what you need to really ask yourself, yes it was a lot of money ( got the e-mail myself too ) but you know the builder by reputation and you must know a certain amount about the woods you selected for the build before you cancelled.
> If not for the insane amount of guitars I already have I might have considered it myself, its a great deal, but you must be sure thats what you want to do, look buying any hand made is some risk that maybe you might not truely like it, but thats why we do the research on builders and then decide if we are willing to risk that much money, its a tough call that only you can make Lyric Girl and if you aren't ready for it, pass on this one I am sure there is another one coming your way soon.Good hunting, and no its not easy, but then what is.Ship


I waffled originally for a couple of reasons, of which the largest one was, that the deal was being brokered by an American dealer in the Buffalo, NY area. Therefore, the guitars were shipping from Vancouver, to Buffalo and then back to Canada. I just didn't want to deal with the border.

My biggest issue is not hearing the tone. I am new to all of this, but I am a current Larrivee owner (PV-09E).


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## zeebee (Nov 2, 2008)

I've purchased sight unseen and was fortunate to end up with a great Santa Cruz. The key is to incorporate a 72 hour return clause into any deal even a custom build. Most builders will extend that. Without it I wouldnt bite.


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

A few years ago several of my friends bought guitars from a local builder. Enough people in town have guitars by this luthier that it's easy to try a dozen or so and compare them. Every one of them is excellent except for the one my best friend bought. This one is the brightest sounding guitar I've ever heard. It's the perfect guitar for a Bach fugue, incredibly clear, but it just doesn't work for anything else. Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad guitar. It's just not versatile enough to be someone's main instrument. Based on his experiences I wouldn't spend too much on anything I couldn't try out first.


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## xuthal (May 15, 2007)

Try emailing the builder,they should have some sound samples they can send to you.What brand are you thinking about buying?


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## lyric girl (Sep 4, 2008)

xuthal said:


> Try emailing the builder,they should have some sound samples they can send to you.What brand are you thinking about buying?


It's a Larrivee. I'm not sure if/when he has built with Italian Spruce. Apparently this wood is fro the 70s.


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## xuthal (May 15, 2007)

lyric girl said:


> It's a Larrivee. I'm not sure if/when he has built with Italian Spruce. Apparently this wood is fro the 70s.


LOL i guess i missed that part.Since you already own a larrivee and know the sound,i would say go for it.Like another poster said if you dont like it you can always send it back.Maybe with the money you can pick up a nice axe at the montreal guitar show.


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## rbbambino (Oct 10, 2007)

I was also emailed about the special guitar offer for Larrivee forum.. I Thought about it, but will not be going for one. A short time back, when the 12th fret got their specially (made for them) OM guitars in from Larrrivee, I was anxious to try one. Well, I was very disappointed in the sound and the look. I suppose my expectations were set for a larger sound. Anyway, it was fortunate that I got to try before buying, because it was an eye/ear opener. 
I'm also not pleased about the border thing. Especially if UPS gets into the picture. There have been many discussions about that in the guitar forms. 
Just my 2 cents.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

i think that in this current market, you're better off to buy a guitar that you've bonded with. if you're looking at an investment of a couple or more thousand dollars, you have a LOT of choices, and as much as i like l'arrivee (and i really do), there are better choices out there for the same price as any of his nicer guitars (they, IMHO, excel at budget guitars, under $2000 they're one of the best... over $2000 there's just better to be had)... depending on what kind of music you want to play with it, you'd be well served to check out santa cruz, bourgeois, collings and many others...


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## lyric girl (Sep 4, 2008)

xuthal said:


> LOL i guess i missed that part.Since you already own a larrivee and know the sound,i would say go for it.Like another poster said if you dont like it you can always send it back.Maybe with the money you can pick up a nice axe at the montreal guitar show.


You can't send it back. Putting down a deposit means a firm commitment to buying the guitar.


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## lyric girl (Sep 4, 2008)

rbbambino said:


> I'm also not pleased about the border thing. Especially if UPS gets into the picture. There have been many discussions about that in the guitar forms.
> Just my 2 cents.



The border issue has been resolved. All Canadians are receiving their guitars directly from Larrivee in Vancouver, so no going over the border.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

The first time I ordered a custom built guitar, it was based on two close encounters with guitars by the same builder (www.beneteauguitars.com have a look). They were superb guitars which, to my ears, totally outclassed the other high end guitars I was able to compare. I met the builder in his shop, talked about tone, feel, cosmetic details, etc and placed my order. I knew the risks and accepted them, but in the end I wasn't disappointed, I got a fantastic guitar, just what I wanted. That was in 1995. Based on that experience, I later got a 12 string and a baritone from him, both of which required considerable design consultation. In the end we knew each other's "guitarness" pretty well. Btw, I still own and play these guitars all the time.

The only other custom orders I've done are with a good friend and former student (www.houseguitars.com have a look). Again, because we knew each other's "guitarness" so well and he was willing to make whatever changes I wanted, I got great guitars (small body steel string for teaching purposes, guitar shaped bouzouki, cutaway steel string). These too are used regularly, especially the cutaway.

There are risks, but if you do your homework, or shop used, or be really specific about your order, you should be fine. 

Peace, Mooh.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Lynda, if you're still waffling, I'd take that as a sign... 

Cheers! 
Lisa


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

suttree said:


> i think that in this current market, you're better off to buy a guitar that you've bonded with. if you're looking at an investment of a couple or more thousand dollars, you have a LOT of choices, and as much as i like l'arrivee (and i really do), there are better choices out there for the same price as any of his nicer guitars (they, IMHO, excel at budget guitars, under $2000 they're one of the best... over $2000 there's just better to be had)... depending on what kind of music you want to play with it, you'd be well served to check out santa cruz, bourgeois, collings and many others...


This has been my experience too, based on trying out various high end guitars. The best new small bodied guitars that played have been Collings. 

Their 12 fret models are amazing


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## lyric girl (Sep 4, 2008)

Scottone said:


> This has been my experience too, based on trying out various high end guitars. The best new small bodied guitars that played have been Collings.
> 
> Their 12 fret models are amazing


Collings, which I would love, is WAY out of my price range.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

An equal or close second to a custom order are great guitars from Larrivee, Collings and the like. One of my students has a Larrivee dread, under a grand, that just slays anything in its price range and most anything else. Another has a Larrivee cutaway, maybe $1200, which is wonderful.

Check out the 12th Fret and Folkway used listings, there are often good deals on stellar guitars if you're patient.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

lyric girl said:


> Collings, which I would love, is WAY out of my price range.


the prices must be brutal now that the dollar is low...haven't checked them out in a few months.


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## lyric girl (Sep 4, 2008)

Prices are very brutal with our dollar as low as it is. However, nothing we can do about that.

The only thing that has ended up holding me up on the Larrivee forum guitar has been the inability to play one first. However, I had a discussion with one of the guys at the 12th Fret who used to work with Larrivee when Larrivee was building in Toronto and he advised that I can't go wrong.

I think I am likely going to indulge in this guitar which will be my third acoustic and will likely be one of the last...LOL

As much as I love Taylor, when you get into a lot of bling, you get into money beyond what I want to pay.

Who knows what the future holds. If somebody would have told me that 2008 would end with my owning two acoustics, a mandolin, a Rickenbacker on order and likely another acoustic on order...I would have told them that they were crazy.hwopv

Thanks everyone for your advice.

Lynda


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## overdriver (Jul 24, 2008)

lyric girl said:


> It's a Larrivee. I'm not sure if/when he has built with Italian Spruce. Apparently this wood is fro the 70s.


 I wouldn't think twice about getting it . That would have been Dave IMO I agree with him . He not only worked with Jean he was Jean first apprentice, has built many fine guitars himself for all kinds of people . he no longer actively builds but he is, along with the rest in the first group of apprentices,are some of the best builders in the world.


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## overdriver (Jul 24, 2008)

Mooh said:


> The first time I ordered a custom built guitar, it was based on two close encounters with guitars by the same builder (www.beneteauguitars.com have a look). They were superb guitars which, to my ears, totally outclassed the other high end guitars I was able to compare. I met the builder in his shop, talked about tone, feel, cosmetic details, etc and placed my order. I knew the risks and accepted them, but in the end I wasn't disappointed, I got a fantastic guitar, just what I wanted. That was in 1995. Based on that experience, I later got a 12 string and a baritone from him, both of which required considerable design consultation. In the end we knew each other's "guitarness" pretty well. Btw, I still own and play these guitars all the time.
> 
> The only other custom orders I've done are with a good friend and former student (www.houseguitars.com have a look). Again, because we knew each other's "guitarness" so well and he was willing to make whatever changes I wanted, I got great guitars (small body steel string for teaching purposes, guitar shaped bouzouki, cutaway steel string). These too are used regularly, especially the cutaway.
> 
> ...


 Marc makes wonder guitars i ordered one in 79 it was his 3rd guitar built that he thought worthy of selling , Very nice similar to Jeans not as nice as the Dave Wren I wanted but couldn't afford, the Wren at 900$ when Marc only wanted 650$ Wow have priced changed


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## lyric girl (Sep 4, 2008)

overdriver said:


> I wouldn't think twice about getting it . That would have been Dave IMO I agree with him . He not only worked with Jean he was Jean first apprentice, has built many fine guitars himself for all kinds of people . he no longer actively builds but he is, along with the rest in the first group of apprentices,are some of the best builders in the world.


How did you know? Did u used to live in Toronto or something?


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

overdriver said:


> Marc makes wonder guitars i ordered one in 79 it was his 3rd guitar built that he thought worthy of selling , Very nice similar to Jeans not as nice as the Dave Wren I wanted but couldn't afford, the Wren at 900$ when Marc only wanted 650$ Wow have priced changed


I've played a couple of Marc's very early instruments and though they were good, they were nothing near as good as his later instruments. Marc got better as he built more, way better. One of these days I'll post photos of mine.

Wren doesn't build much now, if at all, as I understand it. A friend has a couple of electrics that he assembled with loads of help from Dave Wren, and they are pretty good. I did a recording session once with a guy who plays a Wren acoustic, and it sounded great.

Peace, Mooh.


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## overdriver (Jul 24, 2008)

lyric girl said:


> How did you know? Did u used to live in Toronto or something?


Yes I grew up in Toronto has born in 1953 at the Toronto western Hos. Lived near Dufferin and bloor for 30 years and move to BC for awhile then back to Scar. Ont and been here for 12 years. Did hang with many players and visited builders of many fine instruments, that did reside in Ont. Was going to give it a go myself but nver did find the time. There was a great place in Toronto years ago that stocked and show cased many builders guitars, mandolins, banjos etc. called the Millwheel. It was a wonderful place to go and play stuff. Manzer, Wren,Laskin, Dejonge,ETC. ETC. and a host of others. You could, even though some thought the Millwheel was pricey, get great world class stuff there at reasonable prices. Those where the days.


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## overdriver (Jul 24, 2008)

Mooh said:


> I've played a couple of Marc's very early instruments and though they were good, they were nothing near as good as his later instruments. Marc got better as he built more, way better. One of these days I'll post photos of mine.
> 
> Wren doesn't build much now, if at all, as I understand it. A friend has a couple of electrics that he assembled with loads of help from Dave Wren, and they are pretty good. I did a recording session once with a guy who plays a Wren acoustic, and it sounded great.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


Yeah everone gets better as they go along , but that being said well I sold it to a friend and it still is one of the best guitars around.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

overdriver said:


> There was a great place in Toronto years ago that stocked and show cased many builders guitars, mandolins, banjos etc. called the Millwheel. It was a wonderful place to go and play stuff. Manzer, Wren,Laskin, Dejonge,ETC. ETC. and a host of others. You could, even though some thought the Millwheel was pricey, get great world class stuff there at reasonable prices. Those where the days.


I remember the Millwheel...very cool store. As I recall, it was in the Yonge - Dundas area.

Since we're talking about Larrivee apprentices, a friend of mine bought a guitar from Grit Laskin back when he started building on his own (early 70's). At the time, he was just buying it to tide him over until he could afford a D18 

Of course he's still playing it today.


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## timberline (Nov 22, 2008)

*buying sight-unseen*

As a luthier I've often wondered how people found the courage to place firm orders with substantial deposits for instruments before they could play 'em, but lots do. Personally I don't think it is wise, even when dealing with a builder of sterling reputation, but many many players have done it and have been very happy with the outcome.

When I stopped taking custom orders about 5 years ago I had a backorder list of just about 3 years. From a financial perspective that was just dandy, but from a builders' perspective it sucked. It felt like a debt hanging over my head all the time, and even though clients understood their place in the list when they booked, many couldn't resist the urge to call periodically to see if they couldn't somehow magically speed up the process.

Under such circumstances a builder can start to feel some resentment and that's no way to build.

Another factor which came into play for me was that each instrument I built was slightly different from the last. The main reason for me to keep building was my curiosity about what the next one would sound like. The trouble is, when you book firm orders for instruments of a specific type built to certain specs, and the booking list is 3 years long, by the time you get to build that one your ideas on building will have probably changed. It means that to some extent you're building 3-yr. old models when you really want to be building next years' model, if you follow my meaning.

This isn't nearly as true for a large production outfit like Larrivee as it would be for a small independent luthier of course, but it is a consideration when folks are ordering from boutique builders.

Now that I'm 90% retired and no longer accept custom commissions I'm free to build exactly what I want, and to take as long as I want to complete it without the pangs of guilt. Makes the whole process more pleasant, and fortunately when they're done it seems there's always someone who wants to buy 'em.

KH


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## overdriver (Jul 24, 2008)

timberline said:


> As a luthier I've often wondered how people found the courage to place firm orders with substantial deposits for instruments before they could play 'em, but lots do. Personally I don't think it is wise, even when dealing with a builder of sterling reputation, but many many players have done it and have been very happy with the outcome.
> 
> When I stopped taking custom orders about 5 years ago I had a backorder list of just about 3 years. From a financial perspective that was just dandy, but from a builders' perspective it sucked. It felt like a debt hanging over my head all the time, and even though clients understood their place in the list when they booked, many couldn't resist the urge to call periodically to see if they couldn't somehow magically speed up the process.
> 
> ...


 Must be ya do a great job then. I seem to remember seeing and playing a guitar of 2 with the Timberline name on em at the 12 fret years ago was that you?


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## overdriver (Jul 24, 2008)

Scottone said:


> I remember the Millwheel...very cool store. As I recall, it was in the Yonge - Dundas area.
> 
> Since we're talking about Larrivee apprentices, a friend of mine bought a guitar from Grit Laskin back when he started building on his own (early 70's). At the time, he was just buying it to tide him over until he could afford a D18
> 
> Of course he's still playing it today.


 Yes it was nice store. Still playing it and I bet its worth alot more today than a D-18 from the same year of manufacture.


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## lyric girl (Sep 4, 2008)

Thanks to everyone for your advice. I really appreciated it. In the end, I decided to order the Larrivee kksjur

Lynda


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Congratulations Lynda...nice way to start 2009 !!

Dave


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

lyric girl said:


> Thanks to everyone for your advice. I really appreciated it. In the end, I decided to order the Larrivee kksjur
> 
> Lynda


I hope it works out for you Lynda....I have a feeling that it will be a winner.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

lyric girl said:


> Thanks to everyone for your advice. I really appreciated it. In the end, I decided to order the Larrivee kksjur
> 
> Lynda





Scottone said:


> I hope it works out for you Lynda....I have a feeling that it will be a winner.


Yeah, I agree. I'm looking forward to seeing how these guitars turn out. Post more info when your new guitar arrives.


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## lyric girl (Sep 4, 2008)

bagpipe said:


> Yeah, I agree. I'm looking forward to seeing how these guitars turn out. Post more info when your new guitar arrives.


Will do. I ordered mine with herringbone purfling to match the herringbone rosette. I think she's gonna be quite the looker. Hope her sister doesn't get jealous!:smile:


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Sounds good! You'll be happy.

Peace, Mooh.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

timberline said:


> Another factor which came into play for me was that each instrument I built was slightly different from the last.
> 
> KH



Now, this is for me what would attract me to custom builds. I don't think of this as a negative at all, but as a positive. It means my guitar would have it's own 'personal to it' character that no other had.

I look forward to your photos and samples when she arrives :food-smiley-004:


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## sneakypete (Feb 2, 2006)

everybody who has a custom built guitar faces the same problem, I mean you could play two identical guitars made from the same materials by the same builder and they may not sound the same...always a risk, but then if you don`t like the guitar it shouldn`t be difficult to sell. I own 3 Larrivees, two from the Lite series, an OM and an L-Lite, slightly different body shapes but both are very nice, satin mahogany...wouldn`t trade em. The third is an OM-01, there were so many stories flying around the web about those at the time, but even though it`s about as plain as a guitar can be...no binding at all...it`s still a great sounding guitar. I`m a member of the Larrivees site too, but as long as I`m in Japan I won`t ever get involved in one of those special runs...once I get back home though that may change. Got all my Larries here too, but I played em first.


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## lyric girl (Sep 4, 2008)

The whole process was a heck of a ride. The whole thing started on the forum with an inquiry to Jean Larrivee about whether he would be willing to do this. Then it was one wood combo, then three wood combos, the battle over the rosette, short scale vs normal. When we all thought it was a done deal, Jean threw in the options of venetian cutaway and/or herringbone purfling, at a cost of course kqoct. Originally, we needed a minimum of 16 guitars for the project to go forward. I haven't been on the forum today, but last night we were at about 65 orders.

Really looking forward to this git and it will be funny watching the folks who ordered get antsy as they have to wait three months. I keep telling them that they need to order a Rickenbacker and wait out that 

Again, thanks folks. I will post pics when she gets here.


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## timberline (Nov 22, 2008)

Hi Keeper; I never thought of those differences as a negative either, but it made things difficult when buyers ordered on the basis of what I was building in say 1985 but delivery date was three years down the road. By then a number of things change, and while I wanted to build to the new standard I knew the client was expecting something built to the old. Some players want the 'advances', some don't. 

Never had any disasters in that way, with people not wanting the finished product etc., but it coloured my judgement on new builds for sure. Just a personal take on it. I'm much happier not having to build to order any more, free to build what ever I like without being concerned about the other stuff.

I see you're from Burlington. An 0M-42 that I built in the mid 70s is still around that area I believe. May have been a 000, don't remember the scale length now.

KH


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## Mike MacLeod (Nov 27, 2006)

*As nice as Larrivees can be ............*

I don't think I would commit to a factory guitar without playing it. The unit-to- unit variation is too great. If Jean was making each one by hand, I might be more agreeable. My experience with the small 1-person shops like Beneteau, Laskin, Manzer, Threet, Thompson, etc etc. indicates that the only way to buy sight-unseen is from luthiers of this calibre. Collings, and Bourgeois can be included in this list as well as a few other high end small multi-person shops.

In 1980, I ordered a Laskin sight-unseen for $1K,  And I have never ever regretted the choice. It is still a magnificent guitar. Even amongst my personal collection of 2 dozen 20s to 60s Martins, Gibsons and Epis, this guitar gets lots of play-time. 

This is a nice thread. Some good thoughts!


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Mike MacLeod said:


> I don't think I would commit to a factory guitar without playing it. The unit-to- unit variation is too great. If Jean was making each one by hand, I might be more agreeable. My experience with the small 1-person shops like Beneteau, Laskin, Manzer, Threet, Thompson, etc etc. indicates that the only way to buy sight-unseen is from luthiers of this calibre. Collings, and Bourgeois can be included in this list as well as a few other high end small multi-person shops.


I think you're right on the money there -- reputation has a lot to do with it, as does personal responsibility of the builder maybe rather than a factory operation. I ordered a custom hand-built classical from a young German luthier in Granada, Spain, many years ago -- Henner Hagenlocher if you're interested. He's been building a good reputation for quite a while, although not as well-known as some in the area (at the time, there was a 6 year wait for a Paulino Bernabe for example). It's a fantastic guitar, I think he did a great job, communication was great and he was very easy to deal with. It took a bit longer than the initial delivery date, but I kinda expected that. My teacher at the time flipped over the guitar, which was gratifying. I've seen his guitars go for well over double what I paid for mine. 
I had it overhauled a bit a few years ago by a great guy on Granville Island in Vancouver -- the Hungarian luthier Geza Burghardt -- because Air Canada trashed it in shipping. He did a great job too, and redid the French polishing to an even higher standard than the original too. 

Sadly, it doesn't get played as much as it should any more:


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