# Paragononline Promotion, A SCAM!!!! BEWARE!!



## nickname009 (Feb 19, 2006)

My band played this Jagermeister band competition june 27th. This jager show was promoted by a company called paragononline they promised us things like free jager throughout the night and a 40 minute set time etc. None of which was delivered. Here's what they told us: 

- Free jager from 10pm to 1am for everybody 
- 40 min set time 
- Amps/drums supplied 
- Sell a minimum of 30 tickets by a certain date 
- Made us sign a contract that we have to sell 30 minimum and that if we were to drop out we have to drop out 2 weeks prior or else we owe them $150 (half the ticket sale minimum) 

This is what happened: 

- No Jager to be seen all night, infact I asked the promoter I dealt with at 10pm where the **** was the free drinks for all the audience and band members he gave me his word that they would come out no later than 1030. 11pm passed and there no free jagermeister to be seen. As i've learned, there was in fact no jagermeister for free at all whatsoever. Every band and audience member kept asking the bar where the **** is the jager and all the responses were "i don't know, i'm not affiliated with that, that's part of something else" bullshit. 

- While on stage and setting up, getting ready for our set, the host comes up to us and says we have to cut down to 20 minutes. 

- Amps and drums were supplied though none of them were properly equipped. Drums weren't even a basic 5 piece and the amps were some cheap ass 1x12 combos. 

- We sold 31 tickets by the date and assumed that was fine. I met up with the promoter a couple of days before the show and he said if we have leftover tickets, to sell them at the door and give him the $$$. Yet at the same time he said, even if we did sell the remains, it wouldn't make a difference to the set time or anything else. So why the **** should we give him the remaining ticket sales then?! We're not getting paid for this show. After the promoter promised the jager, he was nowhere to be seen at the venue anymore. We called him throughout the show but he kept rejecting the phone calls. They also promised the winnter of this band competition free shit and whatever else they listed. I've so far heard nothing about that. 

In short: Stay FAR away from Paragononline, every musician and every band, TAKE SERIOUS note of all this! There's a shitload of sketchy bullshit promotion companies out there, WATCH YOURSELF AND HELP SPREAD THE WORD!


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## Guest (Jun 30, 2008)

Wow. What kills me is they're still going strong. They started up back when I was with The Apollo Effect...few years ago now. Toronto is just full of lame bar owners and sketch promoters. Get a circle of bands together, never play for free, hunt in groups -- you'll survive longer.

Here is some generally good advice: if a promoter is requiring _you_ to sell tickets for a show they're putting on...run. That's really the promoter's job, don't you think? At the very least, if they're requiring guarantees from you it's resonable for you to get some things in writing from them (like free booze if that's what floats your boat).


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I just read that write up on their site. There is a little asterik next to the "free jager shots and swag for the audience" But no reference to the asterik. Have to be careful whenever you see one of those.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

Has anyone drawn up a contract that a band can use to ensure they get a straight deal? It would be great to have a "boiler plate" style contract to shove in front of a "promoter" when they start making all these promises.


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

I've never been able to get my head around why bands play for free, but this is pretty much what happens when they do. Right now there is a local radio station in my area offereing up an 'opening spot' at an outddoor festival with no mention of getting paid for it, but I imagine that there are people entering to 'win' anyway.


Anyhow, this is straight from the promoter's website. I've never heard of them, or seen the sight before just now:

******************************************************
JAGERMUSIC & PARAGON PRESENT:
"RELEASE THE BEAST" THE BAND COMPETITION
@ THE ANNEX WRECKROOM (794 Bathurst St. @ The corner of Bathurst & Bloor)

*Free Jager shots & swag for the audience - oh yeah! Not to mention great music:

FRIDAY, JUNE 27TH LINE-UP:

8:00 This Town Is On Fire
8:40 The Graveyard Junkies
9:20 Blood Runs Cold
10:00 No Right Turns
10:40 Adder
11:20 Foty
12:00 Broken Sons
12:40 Two Scoops
*******************************************************

The gripes were:

- Free jager from 10pm to 1am for everybody 
- 40 min set time 
- Amps/drums supplied 
- Sell a minimum of 30 tickets by a certain date 
- Made us sign a contract that we have to sell 30 minimum and that if we were to drop out we have to drop out 2 weeks prior or else we owe them $150 (half the ticket sale minimum) 


Here is my take:

Point 1 free Jager - (I don't know what Jager is BTW). Was it in the contract that you signed or was it just a verbal promise? Contact the company that makes Jager and point them to the promoters website and let them know what happened. Make sure that all communications with the company are business like and professional. The site mentions that there would be free Jager for the audience.

Point 2 set times - The website lists 40 minutes between band start times. Unless they told you that there were two stages, there is a 15 minute changeover period between each band, so I would expect 25 minute set times. If bands overplayed their slot (thinking that they had 40 minutes), then I could see time getting shaved off of the remaining bands time slots. I would take this up with any bands that played over their 25 minute limit, or took longer than 7 minutes to clear the stage once they were done.

Point 3 Equipment Supplied - a five piece kit is standard, and they did supply amps. I assume that everything was mic'ed and there was a PA which is the reason for the supplied backline (to facilitate the quick changeovers).

Ticket points - If you were given tickets to sell (and you agreed to sell them) then you have to turn in the cash and remaining tickets so that they balance the value that you were given to sell. You can't sell tickets to someone else's event and keep the money

BTW - did you win?


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Also, I think there is a technicality in referring to it as "Jager." Regardless of how often it is called that amongst the public, the official drink is called *Jägermeister*. I would think anything different than that spelling, including missing the umlaut over the "a" would be referring to a non-existent product that hasn't been trademarked, and therefore, there is no onus on the promoter to provide this dubious product called "Jager" because it simply doesn't exist.

Law is a bitch.


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

Ahh, so that's what Jager is....

I know Jägermeister well. The singer from Live Sex Show (and Harem Scarem) had to have a dried up piece of his liver removed from drinking that stuff.... He turned me on to it in Grand Bend a couple of years ago and I've been trying to dry out my liver ever since.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I've played gigs for more than thirty years without contracts.

I've been stiffed (shorted by $50.) once in all of that time.


Also, I've never played a show for less than $80 and most times more than that. Maybe I should start my own union, LOL.

Contracts, AFM or otherwise are not the only way to work effectively. Common sense is much more valuable and seems to work.


I only play for free when it's a charity I support.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I've played gigs for more than thirty years without contracts.
> 
> I've been stiffed (shorted by $50.) once in all of that time.
> 
> ...


I agree that common sense is valuable if not vital but for us noobs it's not so common at the stage where you're turning a hobby into a business (so to speak). I would guess that most of us non-pros spend most of their time concentrating on getting their performances down and don't give a lot of thought to marketing their services. I suppose setting out and taking your lumps from unscrupulous bar owners and sketchy promotors is a right of passage but it's one I'd cheerfully avoid if at all possible.
Having not yet dealt with any type of promoter or even bar owner I have only anecdotal stories to go by as far as the pitfalls that a band can encounter. There's no more effective lesson than getting burned to teach you but I believe it wise to learn from what others have experienced. (one of the great values in a forum such as this!) A standard contract would at least enlighten people to the most common aspects of the performer/customer arrangement.


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## nickname009 (Feb 19, 2006)

We were the first band on that night (this town is on fire). I haven't heard anything from any of the other bands concerning the winners. I've actually been getting a lot of stories about paragon (i posted this on craigslist too) with the same negative experiences. Thanks for the LPCC contract, I'll definitely take a look at it. It's strange though, my singer who's been in the circuit since he was 15 has nearly never played a show that paid. He tells me 90% of the shows he's played never paid? Now i'm confused about how the circuit works in Toronto!


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

90% of all gigs I've done has been as a soundman. The other 10% is made up of playing, or working in another capacity like a light tech, guitar tech, stage manager... In twenty years, I've never not been paid for a gig, and I've never been paid less than $50.00 for a nights work. I don't remember the last time I worked for $50.00, but that is what my thirteen year old son gets paid when he helps out on a show.

I am of the belief that bands should not play for free unless they are supporting a charity or helping out a friend (party, weddings etc.). I can't tell you how many times I've seen the pay scale for bands on the verge of going up only to be deflated by bands that are willing to play for nothing.

The lowest possible fee should be $75.00 a man plus $300.00 a night for production - and that is the bare minimum for production. Half decent production in a small room with a very simple light show is $600.00 minimum. So a four piece band with production is a minimum of $600/night with the bare balls and $900/night with a decent PA for a small 150-200 seat room.

If you are trying to arrange a gig, and they don't have an in house system that is suitable for a band and they don't want to pay at least $600 for the first night, walk away. 

Agents have pretty much abondoned the bar scene as the pay scale has been beatten down by the play for free bands and bands that decide to book direct. If possible, get an agent to book you and expect that they will take 10 - 15% off the top. If you are not business savy, it is well worth the money.

I've done my share of battle of the bands contests, and sat in housegigs that had bands playing for $150.00 a night, I don't recall a single band that made any headway in the business at all from playing for nothing. For the most part, clubs that don't want to pay bands don't give a rats ass about the quality of their entertainment and are usually on their way out. For the most part these places are just glad to see that the band has brought all of their friends and granparents into the bar for a few hours.

If the bar business (as far as live entertainment is concerned) is ever going to get back on track again it has to go back to the A, B, C and Z circuit format.


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

jroberts said:


> If I was offed the opening slot for the Rolling Stones, I'd gladly play for free. It never, ever works like that, though. The gig's you play for free are almost always very poorly attended. If they weren't, there would be money to pay the bands.


Opening for the Stones would be a valid exception, but kind of like banking on winning the lottery as a career choice.... The last time I saw them (Sars Fest) just about everyone that opened for them blew them off the stage...


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Hamstrung said:


> I agree that common sense is valuable if not vital but for us noobs it's not so common at the stage where you're turning a hobby into a business (so to speak). I would guess that most of us non-pros spend most of their time concentrating on getting their performances down and don't give a lot of thought to marketing their services. I suppose setting out and taking your lumps from unscrupulous bar owners and sketchy promotors is a right of passage but it's one I'd cheerfully avoid if at all possible.
> Having not yet dealt with any type of promoter or even bar owner I have only anecdotal stories to go by as far as the pitfalls that a band can encounter. There's no more effective lesson than getting burned to teach you but I believe it wise to learn from what others have experienced. (one of the great values in a forum such as this!) A standard contract would at least enlighten people to the most common aspects of the performer/customer arrangement.


How do you feel about prenuptual agreements? What do you think the message to your bride is when you ask her to sign one? Certainly there's nothing wrong with it, but it instantly infers (to me at least) a certain element of distrust.

It may seem like a strange analogy but as I've said, and Hamm has reinforced, in all the years I've played and done sound professionally (more than thirty for me) I've never been ripped off and have only once been shorted ($50).

I know contracts are often a good thing particularly when things get to a higher level, but for bars, I don't think it's necessary.


Just my opinion of course.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Hamm Guitars said:


> Opening for the Stones would be a valid exception, but kind of like banking on winning the lottery as a career choice.... The last time I saw them (Sars Fest) just about everyone that opened for them blew them off the stage...



Especially AC/DC IMO


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Especially AC/DC IMO


I agree 100%. AC / DC stole the show. They seemed blissfully comfortable on that stage. Some of the images of Angus during their set are posters waiting to happen.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

jroberts said:


> If I was offed the opening slot for the Rolling Stones, I'd gladly play for free. It never, ever works like that, though. The gig's you play for free are almost always very poorly attended. If they weren't, there would be money to pay the bands.


SRV turned down touring with bowie to concentrate on his own project. if the stones actually ask you to open for them, you're already there, man.... you'd get paid.

i agree with Hamm 100000%. i am STUNNED by what bands will play for in this godforsaken province. what the hell people are doing playing a bar gig as a four piece doing covers (pleasing the audience in other words) and bringing a PA (of sorts), for $250? i'll never understand. what's worse is i've actually played for that kind of crap money here once or twice, before i finally had to say, "i cannot play for a net loss". once you factor in the cost of strings, tubes, gas and dinner... you'd need at least $50 just to break even on a local gig. the scene here is totally poisoned. it's a crying shame, really.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

Milkman said:


> How do you feel about prenuptual agreements? What do you think the message to your bride is when you ask her to sign one? Certainly there's nothing wrong with it, but it instantly infers (to me at least) a certain element of distrust.
> 
> It may seem like a strange analogy but as I've said, and Hamm has reinforced, in all the years I've played and done sound professionally (more than thirty for me) I've never been ripped off and have only once been shorted ($50).
> 
> ...


Interesting analogy! While I wouldn't equate a 2-4 night commitment to play music at a local watering hole in the same league as combining every legal aspect of my life with another human being I would still have to say that I'd lean toward both a pre-nup and a gig contract each with their requisite level of complexity. Nothing like spelling out expectations before diving in, be it for a week or a lifetime! 

As to what I believe it says to a potential bride... In my case it says at my age, I can't afford to start over from scratch and I'm not carrying your ass into my senior years if it doesn't work out, and I'm not expecting you to carry mine. We go into this with what we bring into it and should it end for any reason other than death we leave with what we brought into it and split the rest... And the guitars stay with me!! I know... I'm a softy! :smile:

As you say though it does infer an element of distrust. I'd like to be more optimistic and believe it or not I generally am. The thing is, hearing stories like the one that started this thread and the other stories of "how my band got screwed" and while we're at it, stories of "how I got screwed by my ex" (not in a good way) make me want to opt for a level of security (or at least certainty) that a contract can help to ensure. Remember, the contract protects both parties. Perhaps a bar owner if he's really on the up and up will appreciate knowing exactly what you're bringing to the table as well. Any potential spouse worth their salt will have assets of their own to protect. In each case if all parties enter with their eyes open there's less chance of a breakdown or misunderstanding. 

Of course all that said, a good repore built with a couple local bar owners may be all that's really needed once you've proven yourselves to each other. Word of mouth among bands/musicians would probably be as valuable as anything in that case. 

I guess it comes down to level of risk and the value you place on your contribution (in both instances). 

That of course is just my long winded opinion. :food-smiley-004:


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## james on bass (Feb 4, 2006)

That sucks. 

"Battle of the bands" style shows are the biggest scam out there, no matter who is affiliated with it.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I remember signing up for one, no cost to us--so much better deal, but still no pay--unless you won.

As things worked out-we dropped out of it as stuff kept coming up when we tried to practice for it, and we never saw a bass player at any time when we did get together. Our lead guitarist kept coming up with reasons why he couldn't make it (Well he did sometimes.) I wasn't happy with the situation and decided it was better not to play-(What's worse than playing a free gig? Playing a free gig & not playing well.) Although we did discuss just going and jamming, but that wasn't allowed. I considered switching from rhythm guitar to bass for the show, but that would have meant more work than we had time for.

Anyway--the drummer & I went to see the other bands--and it was actually quite lame. We'd have kicked butt--but in retrospect it may have been a better thing not to be involved--given this & other horror stories I've heard.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Hamstrung said:


> Interesting analogy! While I wouldn't equate a 2-4 night commitment to play music at a local watering hole in the same league as combining every legal aspect of my life with another human being I would still have to say that I'd lean toward both a pre-nup and a gig contract each with their requisite level of complexity. Nothing like spelling out expectations before diving in, be it for a week or a lifetime!
> 
> As to what I believe it says to a potential bride... In my case it says at my age, I can't afford to start over from scratch and I'm not carrying your ass into my senior years if it doesn't work out, and I'm not expecting you to carry mine. We go into this with what we bring into it and should it end for any reason other than death we leave with what we brought into it and split the rest... And the guitars stay with me!! I know... I'm a softy! :smile:
> 
> ...


Your comments do make sense. I understand, and to some extent agree with you. I stil really prefer the gentleman's agreement over a legal contract somehow. I guess I've been lucky and/or maybe a good judge of character as evidenced by my lack of negative experiences with promoters and bar owners. I wouldn't say they're always sweethearts, but you get the drift.

As for marriage, yup I HATE the way divorce lawyers "divide" assets. A woman (sorry ladies, but you know it's true) without a pot to pee in or a window to throw it out of can marry someone, and a year or two later walk away with half of everything he owns. I can see why a prenup is a good thing in theory. 
It takes a smooth delivery however to slide that by a prospective bride and not have her be offended and hurt.


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