# XLR output



## GuyB (May 2, 2008)

I have a XLR output on my Traynor YCS50. I've never used it and I am wandering what could be the difference in tone between using this output direct to a PA or mic the amp.

This is what the manual says about the XLR :

«XLR Balanced D.I. Line Out Jack 26 For maximum versatility, The YCS amplifiers have an XLR D.I. Line Out. The signal sent from this output is post-master and has the Traynor Dyna-Sound speaker simulator compensation. This speaker output does not remain active when the amplifier is in standby mode so the YCS amplifier can be used as a preamp for recording.Note: The XLR Balanced line output signal is affected by all tone controls, including reverb (but not the Master Volume).)


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## Gizmo (Aug 7, 2008)

GuyB said:


> I have a XLR output on my Traynor YCS50. I've never used it and I am wandering what could be the difference in tone between using this output direct to a PA or mic the amp.
> 
> This is what the manual says about the XLR :
> 
> «XLR Balanced D.I. Line Out Jack 26 For maximum versatility, The YCS amplifiers have an XLR D.I. Line Out. The signal sent from this output is post-master and has the Traynor Dyna-Sound speaker simulator compensation. This speaker output does not remain active when the amplifier is in standby mode so the YCS amplifier can be used as a preamp for recording.Note: The XLR Balanced line output signal is affected by all tone controls, including reverb (but not the Master Volume).)


Probably a bit like the Palmer PDI 09
http://palmergear.com/pdi09.shtml
I use one all the time instead of micing my cab and it sounds good.
Best part is that its consistent from gig to gig.


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## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

I tried it out.....it's pretty cool.....set the amp into standby and you can take the XLR out directly into the board (in my case it was a small Fender passport PA)......it is void of any sort of effects - straight from the pre-amp....sounds cool - but desert dry.......I'll have to try it again and report back - but I don't remember being able to use any of the amp effects - reverb, any of the tone switches, or the resonance / presence effects


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## GuyB (May 2, 2008)

lbrown1 said:


> ... I don't remember being able to use any of the amp effects - reverb, any of the tone switches, or the resonance / presence effects


Well... and the manual says that «The XLR Balanced line output signal is affected by all tone controls, including reverb (but not the Master Volume)» ??? I don't have access to a PA right now to test that so I'll wait for your report.

Next month, I'll have a gig where I think that I'll have to go in the PA, so I am gathering infos on that.

And thanks for the link, Gizmo.


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## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

I'll try it out this thurs - I'll have some people coming over and the PA will be hooked up...stay tuned


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

It's not better or worse than mic-ing, just different. Certainly the sound will be VERY consistent via the XLR feed. On the other hand, for some consistency is not what they're after. There may be some sound you only get when mic-ing a certain way or from a certain angle/distance or with a certain mic/volume combination. Your choice, though, and nice to have it.:smile:


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2009)

mhammer said:


> It's not better or worse than mic-ing, just different.


A big +1 to that. Just different. I've been a user-of-a-direct-filtered-line-output for many years now. You have to expect to EQ it differently. And of course, if you're recording the output, you need to add back in ambiance. Via reverb or a cab+mic sim from a plugin.

I've got a ton of material recorded direct using both a Palmer and my Koch's recording out that sounds great.


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## GuyB (May 2, 2008)

Thanks for the good infos.

Now, technally speaking, if I understand what the manual says, when you use the XLR output, the only thing that's "missing" from the original amp sound is the speaker, is that it ? (that could be why Traynor puts a speaker simulator ?)


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2009)

GuyB said:


> Thanks for the good infos.
> 
> Now, technally speaking, if I understand what the manual says, when you use the XLR output, the only thing that's "missing" from the original amp sound is the speaker, is that it ? (that could be why Traynor puts a speaker simulator ?)


Correct. Well, that and the room. The room is a big part of the playing experience. Guitar speakers are not full-frequency sound reproducing speakers. They impart their own equalization on the full frequency signal your power amp feeds them. They so some high and low band limiting as well. The actual full frequency signal coming out of your power amp sounds quite fizzy when listened to. The filter attempts to tame some of that, make it sound more like you'd expect with a speaker in the signal path.

Here are some older clips I did with a Palmer unit that show the difference between the dry direct (but filtered) signal, and then with ambiance added back in: http://www.guitarscanada.com/Board/showthread.php?p=84897&highlight=palmer#post84754

With the Palmer my favourite way to record was taking the full frequency, unfiltered output and running that into Guitar Rig 2 with a patch setup with *just* a cabinet and mic model. No preamp. Great feel, and it was fun to switch cabs and mics to change up the sound.

With the Koch I have only a filtered output (like your Traynor) and I tend to record just that. Filtering on top of filtering can really squeeze the sound down into a narrow band that's not so great. But occasionally I'll use a cab+mic sim on it. I intend to get the amp modded at some point so I can bypass the filter circuit on the recording output and get a full frequency output like I got from my Palmer unit.

For a clip of the Koch in action listen to: http://ian.coastpedalboards.com/sounds/rpm2009/chilled.mp3 -- everything on that is direct. The clean guitar, the lead. The bass is a Reason sampler patch played on a keyboard.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Note that few speakers sound *exactly* the same as one moves off-axis. Indeed, that is one of the holy grails in the audiophile world: creating a speaker that sounds the same whether you sit straight in front of it or off to the side. And the difference is not usually the sort of thing that a simple filter can mimic.

Most producers and engineers have their own special recipe for mic-ing an amp, which will involve: a) a mic, b) a distance, c) an angle relative to the voice coil, and occasionally d) an angling of the mic itself.

True, there is "the room", but mic-ing involves more than the room. Of course, there is a difference between mic-ing as a tonal tool, and mic-ing as a simple sound-reinforcement tool. For sound-reinforcement, it's a VERY good thing to not have yet one more mic that can feed back.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

GuyB said:


> Thanks for the good infos.
> 
> Now, technally speaking, if I understand what the manual says, when you use the XLR output, the only thing that's "missing" from the original amp sound is the speaker, is that it ? (that could be why Traynor puts a speaker simulator ?)


Not really. The text read "the signal is taken post master". This means that it is taken just before it hits the power tubes.

It also says that the amp must be in standby. This means that there will be no voltage on the output tubes, so that you don't have to worry about forgetting to make sure there's a speaker load on the output tubes at all times. You could forget and take your signal from the XLR while your output tubes have no load and fry.

The key thing is that you cannot possibly have any power tube distortion in your signal. After all, they're in standby, right?

There are two areas of distortion in a guitar amp, the preamp and the power amp stages. Preamp gain is crunchy but more 'fizzy'. Power tube distortion is more thick, warm and creamy.

It's all taste, but old guys like me don't think a lot about preamp distortion. It's nice that you can turn the gain up and the master volume down and get some distortion but to those of us who grew up listening to Deep Purple, Hendrix or Townsend playing their amp on 9, with those EL34's or whatever just cooking, turning down the master volume just makes the amp sound like ass!

A smaller amp played on 7 or more will always sound better for classic rock tone than a big amp turned down to 3. As soon as you turn a master volume down the output tubes go all 'hifi', no matter how much preamp gain you run.

Again, this is all personal taste. If your life's ambition is to go all 'Yngwie' and your song repertoire has nothing older than the 80's then hey, whatever blows your skirt up!

:food-smiley-004:


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Good call Bill.

Yep, it is rare that an XLR output like the one described at the outset would include the contribution of much beyond the preamp stage, which means that not only do you not get "the room", the speakers, and all that mic-ing stuff I noted earlier, but you don't get what the power tubes contribute or whatever it is that the output transformer might contribute. Keep in mind that a 6V6, 6L6, EL84, EL34, or even KT88 amp will essentially be the same at the XLR output under those circumstances if they all share the same 3 x 12AX7 front end.

Looking at the schematic for the amp http://www.traynoramps.com/downloads/servman/smycs50h.pdf (see page 10 far right), it would appear that the XLR output is taken from just before the Master volume control, and does not include the reverb signal. The block diagram suggests it IS, but the schematic suggests otherwise. So there is another difference between what you get when you mic and when you use the direct out.


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## Gizmo (Aug 7, 2008)

I take it back then, this is nothing like the Palmer PDI-09 which takes the signal from between the amp and the speaker. So basically it does include the power section and any interaction that occurs between the output transformer and the speaker.
Thats probably why it sound decent!


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## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

mhammer said:


> Good call Bill.
> 
> Yep, it is rare that an XLR output like the one described at the outset would include the contribution of much beyond the preamp stage, which means that not only do you not get "the room", the speakers, and all that mic-ing stuff I noted earlier, but you don't get what the power tubes contribute or whatever it is that the output transformer might contribute. Keep in mind that a 6V6, 6L6, EL84, EL34, or even KT88 amp will essentially be the same at the XLR output under those circumstances if they all share the same 3 x 12AX7 front end.
> 
> Looking at the schematic for the amp http://www.traynoramps.com/downloads/servman/smycs50h.pdf (see page 10 far right), it would appear that the XLR output is taken from just before the Master volume control, and does not include the reverb signal. The block diagram suggests it IS, but the schematic suggests otherwise. So there is another difference between what you get when you mic and when you use the direct out.


that makes sense as to why I had no reverb on the signal when I tried it on the YCS50


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## GuyB (May 2, 2008)

I was getting tired to click on the "Thanks" button under too many posts in this thread :smile: so I'll say it here, once : thanks very much for the detailed infos posted here. I don't understand these tech things very well usually but here, everything is bright clear !
I'll try the XLR thing to see what it can give but I do prefer the distortion coming from the power tubes in the lead channel, so... ?
In fact, the only place I like cranking the gain is on the clean channel, in the 15W mode, with the Brit voicing : that's something special ! So I guess that I would keep this tone even if I use the XLR output.
I think that I will have to arrive very soon at the gig place next month so that I have the time to test all this.


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