# Tiny PA boards



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

So a couple weeks ago at a gig we had our PA board die on us. It was a 15 year old Yorkville board. Luckily at the club (very lucky) they had a spare board that worked in a pinch. 
So this past week I show up to the gig and the band leader has a new unpowered board and all powered speakers. The system sounded phenomenal. What stood out to me though was the size of the board. It is a 16 channel digital board and can't be much bigger than an IPad. Amazing how small things are getting. And the EV powered speakers we are using aren't any heavier than passive speakers that I've hauled. I know in the past some of the powered speakers I've had to lug were quite heavy.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Those digital boards can be remote controlled by an ipad... so.... you sure it wasn't an ipad ;P

I don't like that everything has gone digital. I get why, but I don't have to like it.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> So a couple weeks ago at a gig we had our PA board die on us. It was a 15 year old Yorkville board. Luckily at the club (very lucky) they had a spare board that worked in a pinch.
> So this past week I show up to the gig and the band leader has a new unpowered board and all powered speakers. The system sounded phenomenal. What stood out to me though was the size of the board. It is a 16 channel digital board and can't be much bigger than an IPad. Amazing how small things are getting. And the EV powered speakers we are using aren't any heavier than passive speakers that I've hauled. I know in the past some of the powered speakers I've had to lug were quite heavy.


Could be a QSC, Line 6 or several others.

I use a slightly bigger QSC, and control it remotely with an iPad or iPhone and yes, all powered cabs.

It does take some adjustment giving up the tactile nature of an analog board, but it’s an adjustment I can live with in light of the absolutely mind blowing depth of editing and control you gain.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Those digital boards can be remote controlled by an ipad... so.... you sure it wasn't an ipad ;P
> 
> I don't like that everything has gone digital. I get why, but I don't have to like it.


No it wasn't an ipad. We're not that technically advanced. Its probably bigger than an IPad. Certainly thicker. It just seemed shockingly small for a 16 channel board.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Maybe it was a QSC TM 16?

TouchMix-16


or the Line 6 offering

Line 6 | StageScape M20d

I have the QSC TM30 Pro


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Love the digital boards! But it will be a while before the used ones come down to my price point. On the plus side, used analog boards are practically free.

Your Yorkville board must heve been a lemon - only 15 years! :-D


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

The kid (high school senior) that did the sound at the last community event I played used an iPad to control everything. He did an awesome job, near as I could tell. The sound was spot on. Initially I was annoyed that the sound guy wasn't at the board but when I heard my monitor mix come up I knew something new was happening. The board isn't often located in the best place in the house, but it doesn't really matter as long as the ears and hands can be. If this becomes the new normal, I'm okay with it.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Once you go over to dark side it's very hard to go back.


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

I was always 'old' school when it came to PA. Power amp, un powered EV speakers did the job for us for over 50 years. Then i discovered powered speakers. Great clean sound, lots of power for what we do, no heavy power amp, win win situation. Cant go wrong.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Maybe it was a QSC TM 16?
> 
> TouchMix-16
> 
> View attachment 230546


Our board looks exactly like the QSC TM 16.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> No it wasn't an ipad. We're not that technically advanced. Its probably bigger than an IPad. Certainly thicker. It just seemed shockingly small for a 16 channel board.


The size limitation is quickly become the connector panel. Sixteen XLR's, inserts and line-ins, effects sends and returns, main and monitor outputs, etc. The same has happened with hi-fi receivers, the electronics can be mounted in a box 1 RU high, but all the connectors require 4 or 5 RU.

Powered speakers are getting better all the time, too. Usually the amps are sized perfectly to power the drivers just right, and are well balanced. Connections get easier - all line level, no more bulky, long (and inefficient) speaker cables.

As @Milkman said, once you've seen the future, it's pretty hard to look at that clunky old stuff. Even when it keeps working and working.


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

I couldn't go back to a component PA. The biggest improvement I found was the overall balance. As long as you use quality mics and mic everything half decent you hardly need any corrective eq.

Yorkville paraline or parasource powered arrays are amazing! 

Sent from my H3223 using Tapatalk


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

One thing I like about modern digital boards are the memeory (programmability). If you do the same room, the same band or either of the above, you can easily save those settings, name them whatever you like and recall them at will.

Have the starting point at a show that is the result of several hours of dialing in the room is a HUGE advantage.

What seems complicated when it comes to these boards ends up simplifying things dramatically.

Mine’s not tiny but it does fit (with a road case) in the trunk of my car (not a big trunk), and when you consider that it replaces a normal 32 channel board, effects rack, snake........for me there’s no decision to make at all, other than cost elements.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Can you explain in a little more detail. I get the board and effects but not sure about the snake. Are you saying the system is wireless?


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Guitar101 said:


> Can you explain in a little more detail. I get the board and effects but not sure about the snake. Are you saying the system is wireless?


I think he sets up the board on stage and controls it remotely with his iPad.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Yes, the board is set up side stage and acts as a sort of home base and also as the snake head.

It’s also important to note that at least for small to medium sized shows (say, up to 1000 bodies) you also eliminate the 6’ table in prime real estate usually needed for the FOH control.

The QSC system uses WiFi to enable an app on either Android or ios devices.

I use an Apple Airport WiFi and it has never failed me.

So, I set basic stuff up at the board but walk around the house and mix with an iPad.

I can do pretty in depth editing and mix on the fly with the iPad. It’s pretty cool.

Also, anyone in the band with a smartphone can be given control of their monitor mix. I give them access to whatever I choose.

I have like, ten monitor mixes available I think.

It’s nuts, the capability these systems have.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)




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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

Milkman said:


> Yes, the board is set up side stage and acts as a sort of home base and also as the snake head.
> 
> It’s also important to note that at least for small to medium sized shows (say, up to 1000 bodies) you also eliminate the 6’ table in prime real estate usually needed for the FOH control.
> 
> ...


Wow Milkman. thats short of amazing. Being able to adjust monitor mix.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

marcos said:


> Wow Milkman. thats short of amazing. Being able to adjust monitor mix.


Yes, most people have a smartphone of some sort. It’s nice being able to make exactly the adjustment to your monitor mix that you have in mind, rather than trying to communicate that to the guy behind the board.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Screen shot from my iPhone (1st screen the musician would see), except the strips would be labeled, making it easier to mix on the fly.


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

Milkman said:


> Screen shot from my iPhone (1st screen the musician would see), except the strips would be labeled, making it easier to mix on the fly.
> 
> View attachment 231176


Does each monitor mix have control for fx returns on each channel? 

Sent from my H3223 using Tapatalk


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

TheYanChamp said:


> Does each monitor mix have control for fx returns on each channel?
> 
> Sent from my H3223 using Tapatalk


I believe so but I’d have to check.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

I've been using a Mackie DL1608 for a couple years and love the freedom of being able to mix from anywhere in the room when we're doing soundcheck. I'd never go back to an analog board. Hell, I'm waiting for when we have a decent digital interface for instruments and mics and can go wireless for EVERYTHING! The single longest part of our set-up/tear-down is coiling cables at the end of the night.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

hollowbody said:


> I've been using a Mackie DL1608 for a couple years and love the freedom of being able to mix from anywhere in the room when we're doing soundcheck. I'd never go back to an analog board. Hell, I'm waiting for when we have a decent digital interface for instruments and mics and can go wireless for EVERYTHING! *The single longest part of our set-up/tear-down is coiling cables at the end of the night.*


And untangling them at the beginning. How does that even happen?

Seriously, not much of an issue once we started taping them, but for years before - yikes! Half the time I'm still too lazy to tape my guitar cables when I throw them back in my gig bag. What the hell do they do at night, while we're all asleep? Ultimately, I should have twice as many cables by now, right?


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

High/Deaf said:


> And untangling them at the beginning. How does that even happen?
> 
> Seriously, not much of an issue once we started taping them, but for years before - yikes! Half the time I'm still too lazy to tape my guitar cables when I throw them back in my gig bag. What the hell do they do at night, while we're all asleep? Ultimately, I should have twice as many cables by now, right?


LOL. With the amount of time I spend properly coiling them at 2:30am, you'd think it wouldn't!!!!

I buy rolls of this stuff and attach one to each of our XLR, IEC, and 1/4 cables. 








Makes things less likely to get tangled in the ol' bin in-between shows.

They come in different colours and I've been meaning to colour-code my cables for a while now, but haven't gotten around to it.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

I was actually just browsing the web looking to see if there was such a thing as a wireless cable snake, or individual wireless transmitters that can broadcast to a single receiver that then snakes to a mixer. I don't think it exists...but it should! 

I found these: Sennheiser SKP 2000 - Wireless Microphone - Plug-On Transmitter with Phantom Powering

But unsure if they will work with any XLR signal (they're advertised as plug-in mic transmitters). I can't see why they shouldn't, but who knows. They're also $700 each. And each require a separate receiver *#*(


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

hollowbody said:


> LOL. With the amount of time I spend properly coiling them at 2:30am, you'd think it wouldn't!!!!
> 
> I buy rolls of this stuff and attach one to each of our XLR, IEC, and 1/4 cables.
> 
> ...



I use low tack masking tape. It rips apart easily and leaves no goo. I tried the velcro stuff, but found it to be more of a pain.

One approach I used to use is a crank spool for the XLRs. When you're coiling up a lot of them you can connect them end to end and crank them onto a spool.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

hollowbody said:


> I've been using a Mackie DL1608 for a couple years and love the freedom of being able to mix from anywhere in the room when we're doing soundcheck. I'd never go back to an analog board. Hell, I'm waiting for when we have a decent digital interface for instruments and mics and can go wireless for EVERYTHING! The single longest part of our set-up/tear-down is coiling cables at the end of the night.


I was pretty much set to buy a Mackie DL32R but the only thing that stopped me is there's no screen. If you lose your WiFi, the mix doesn't crash, but you lose control until the WiFi is back up.

I chose the QSC because in the off chance that you lose your WiFi, you can still mix at the board.

The Mackie stuff does work well and sounds great.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Milkman said:


> I use low tack masking tape. It rips apart easily and leaves no goo. I tried the velcro stuff, but found it to be more of a pain.
> 
> One approach I used to use is a crank spool for the XLRs. When you're coiling up a lot of them you can connect them end to end and crank them onto a spool.


I've seen a few snake/spool combos. They seem handy to coiling-up, but also seem rather bulky to carry around and are pretty expensive. 

Why can't we have things that are portable, easy to use, reliable, AND inexpensive?!?! 



Milkman said:


> I was pretty much set to buy a Mackie DL32R but the only thing that stopped me is there's no screen. If you lose your WiFi, the mix doesn't crash, but you lose control until the WiFi is back up.
> 
> I chose the QSC because in the off chance that you lose your WiFi, you can still mix at the board.
> 
> The Mackie stuff does work well and sounds great.


I really want the Mackie DL32R, myself. For my needs, it's just about perfect, and the ability to record multi-track audio direct to hard drive?! 

The DL1608 functions the same way, when WiFi drops, you lose control, but the mixer remembers the last setting state and continues. This hasn't been an issue for me at all. I don't think my router has ever dropped it's WiFi connection, although some people have expressed concern about the DL32R's internal WiFi router (you can still use your own). I do all my fussing during soundcheck and it's rare for me to adjust during a set other than in the first handful of songs of the night. Other than that, it's mostly pushing the mains a little bit as the rooms fill-up. However, you can also use a laptop connected via ethernet to the DL32R for a wired connection that won't drop _in addition_ to having remote iPad mixing. It's a solution for added reliability for those who need it.

There are a few times when I miss having actual faders to play with rather than an iPad screen, but it's not too often. I've seen those QSC boards in a few places and they look fantastic.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

hollowbody said:


> I've seen a few snake/spool combos. They seem handy to coiling-up, but also seem rather bulky to carry around and are pretty expensive.
> 
> Why can't we have things that are portable, easy to use, reliable, AND inexpensive?!?!
> 
> ...


The QSC is also designed to be a recording interface. I have all the hardware, an iMac and the Apple software but have not gotten off my ass to use it that way.

For me, a mix is not a static thing. I guess some would disagree, but if I'm doing FOH sound I'm making adjustments all night, even to the main graphs as bodies come and go.

Like I said, the Mackie was front and center on my hit list, but I worked a fair with an act using one and when they lost the WiFi they lost any control to further work on the mix. By the time they got control back the set was over.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Milkman said:


> The QSC is also designed to be a recording interface. I have all the hardware, an iMac and the Apple software but have not gotten off my ass to use it that way.
> 
> For me, a mix is not a static thing. I guess some would disagree, but if I'm doing FOH sound I'm making adjustments all night, even to the main graphs as bodies come and go.


For sure, if I was running sound FT, I would want that functionality too. For me a mix HAS to be static (or damned close to it), since I'm busy playing guitar and can only make the smallest of adjustments on-the-fly. I usually EQ and gain-stage very conservatively so that I have as little as possible that can go wrong. I'd rather sacrifice some SPLs then risk feedback 

As for the recording, man, it would be great to get multitrack! I can get stereo from my Mackie, but given that our FoH mix blends with the stage volume in most places, the mix itself can sound wacky. I usually use the stereo track to supplement whatever video we've shot and comp the two audio streams together, mixing in just enough of the Mackie feed to get the vocals sitting nice and pretty. It's not perfect, but I've gotten pretty good at it!


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

Not sure if it's been mentioned (Didn't read the entire thread) but I have the Soundcraft Ui12. 
Does everything I need for a 3 peice band with E drums, Guitar x2, Bass, and 3 vocals 

Has good on board Effects
I can do 4 individual monitor mixes, and the feedback killer on all outputs is just a great thing.


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

djmarcelca said:


> Not sure if it's been mentioned (Didn't read the entire thread) but I have the Soundcraft Ui12.
> Does everything I need for a 3 peice band with E drums, Guitar x2, Bass, and 3 vocals
> 
> Has good on board Effects
> I can do 4 individual monitor mixes, and the feedback killer on all outputs is just a great thing.


Was considering moving to this for my next "board" . Most places supply board and soundman but for rehearsals and the few times I need to do sound I think it's a pretty sweet rig for the price. 

Sent from my H3223 using Tapatalk


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

djmarcelca said:


> Not sure if it's been mentioned (Didn't read the entire thread) but I have the Soundcraft Ui12.
> Does everything I need for a 3 peice band with E drums, Guitar x2, Bass, and 3 vocals
> 
> Has good on board Effects
> I can do 4 individual monitor mixes, and the feedback killer on all outputs is just a great thing.


I didn't know about these boards and the price certainly seems right! I'll have to read-up about them a bit more.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Us guitar players make zero f'ing sence. I play a 1950s spec guitar, into digital and analog pedals, into a vintage tube amp, which gets miced with an 57/58 and run into a digital PA. Run the PA into class D powered speakers. I love digital PA systems, but be damned if I'll modernize my section of the chain


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

cboutilier said:


> Us guitar players make zero f'ing sence. I play a 1950s spec guitar, into digital and analog pedals, into a vintage tube amp, which gets miced with an 57/58 and run into a digital PA. Run the PA into class D powered speakers. I love digital PA systems, but be damned if I'll modernize my section of the chain


I tried an engl pre through a crown class d power amp into 4x12.. Don't know from where but it wasn't quite right! Wasn't bad, just didn't have the same kind of punch and resonance. 

Sent from my H3223 using Tapatalk


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I like the silent stage concept from beginning to end.


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