# Pine, Cedar, Fir and Spruce for solid bodies?



## Hypno Toad

I've been reading around, it seems there's not a whole lot said about pien bodies from experienced sources, but I've seen a lot of projects of fender style guitars made from pine. There's a lot of mainly acoustic materials like cedar and spruce, but I've never seen them made into a solidbody form.

I found pictures and youtube videos, but I can't really find any solid word from experienced luthiers on these woods for solid bodies.





























Seems these woods are very popular for telecasters.

There's a youtube video with a stratocaster that's maybe made out of pine, Hard to tell due to the vague description.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqTrvxIt_tI

Does anybody here have an experiences with these woods? I'd like to make a lower budget strat or tele for myself, made from one of those 4 woods. Not sure how it'll hold up, though. Are these woods fairly good to use?


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## al3d

Pine for telecasters is REALY nice, both for tone and for looks. all mentionned wood can be used, it's softer wood, but still gets a warm tone.


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## shoretyus

This is really nice. Cedar 










Cedar and Cocobolo top


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## fraser

heres my pine esquire










no problem holding screws, really lightweight, very resonant-
its only got a thin finish on it, but its holding up really nice after a year and a half. i wouldnt hesitate to use pine again.
i suppose problems could be had if using a strat type whammy bar on it- screws might eventually start letting go, but those things are nonsense anyway.


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## fraser

shoretyus said:


> Cedar and Cocobolo top


that top looks killer pat!


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## Hypno Toad

Whats a cedar like in terms of sound?

So far I'm liking the sound of pine. If I were to make a pine strat, It'd probably have a hardtail bridge anyways. Stewmac sells some pretty good, simplistic hardtails for a cheap price.


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## shoretyus

The Cedar makes a nice guitar. Bright but not overly. I seem to by making the same guitar's over again js Moores' bridge and a minibucker is my favourite combination.
That guitar is great Fraz... but in now lives in Sudbury


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## keeperofthegood

There was mention of, but no linking too, and google is a REAL pain to use to find this:

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/2009-$100-tele-challenge/

But it is a wonderful afternoon read.


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## fraser

keeperofthegood said:


> There was mention of, but no linking too, and google is a REAL pain to use to find this:
> 
> http://www.tdpri.com/forum/2009-$100-tele-challenge/
> 
> But it is a wonderful afternoon read.


yup- it was some older threads on pine guitars, and seeing these videos, that convinced me-

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=arlo+west&search_type=&aq=f

this guy uses teles and strats made of pine. not my style of music necessarily, but the guitars definately work.


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## Hypno Toad

I find that warm tele sound often used for country translates into a nice alternative rock sort of sound as well.


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## shoretyus

Hypno Toad said:


> I find that warm tele sound often used for country translates into a nice alternative rock sort of sound as well.


Jazz rock blues reggae... oh heck they can do country too


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## YJMUJRSRV

gone fishing


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## Hypno Toad

If you drop your guitar, I think the warranty becomes void? If you treat it right, then there shouldn't be an problems.

I don't see why a neck joint wouldn't hold up, and I don't think a bridge would come loose if you screw it down properly. I think basswood might be slightly softer than pine, and many manufacturers make basswood guitars..

I always figured nobody made guitars out of pine because it seemed cheap, despite the fact that it sounds good. All those woods (well, cedar and pine) are quite often used in building construction. Probably makes it out to seem as if it's not instrument grade.


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## shoretyus

I have never made one out of Pine but have built a lot of other stuff out of it. It is a pain in several ways. You have to be super clean with no stray chips of wood between stacked pieces. It's also hard to get a consistant colour on several pieces when staining etc.

I think all these home builders using pine do it because it's easy to get, and they don't have good machinery.


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## keeperofthegood

shoretyus said:


> I have never made one out of Pine but have built a lot of other stuff out of it. It is a pain in several ways. You have to be super clean with no stray chips of wood between stacked pieces. It's also hard to get a consistant colour on several pieces when staining etc.
> 
> I think all these home builders using pine do it because it's easy to get, and they don't have good machinery.


kqoct my father used pine. His reason: saw blades are expensive and hard wood dulls them fast.

And that was his entire reason. He could build more things with less replacing tools, sharpening tools, than he could using hardwoods. Mind you, you can dent, ding, crease, gouge pine with your fingernails it is a soft wood kqoct


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## shoretyus

keeperofthegood said:


> kqoct my father used pine. His reason: saw blades are expensive and hard wood dulls them fast.
> 
> And that was his entire reason. He could build more things with less replacing tools, sharpening tools, than he could using hardwoods. Mind you, you can dent, ding, crease, gouge pine with your fingernails it is a soft wood kqoct


hmmm .. not to put down your father but do you remember him cleaning pine gum off those blades? It sucks and makes the saw work harder. Blades are meant to be sharpened. I have blades in rotation, sharp ones in the shop, dulls getting sharpened. Worse is cleaning pine gum off the planer head.


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## keeperofthegood

shoretyus said:


> hmmm .. not to put down your father but do you remember him cleaning pine gum off those blades? It sucks and makes the saw work harder. Blades are meant to be sharpened. I have blades in rotation, sharp ones in the shop, dulls getting sharpened. Worse is cleaning pine gum off the planer head.



Haha no offense taken. Dad was a strange duck, had his ways. What he had to do to maintain his tools I honestly couldn't tell you. I can say what I did, because he said it a LOT while I was growing up


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## MaxProphet

squier classic vibe tele = pine body. product blurb claims it sounds similar to ash.


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## Hypno Toad

MaxProphet said:


> squier classic vibe tele = pine body. product blurb claims it sounds similar to ash.


Ash? 0.o I thought it sounded like a warmer version of basswood. I'm listening a pine and ash side by side. Ash has way more bite to it.


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## YJMUJRSRV

gone fishing


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## al3d

YJMUJRSRV said:


> =Although the alder 5 peice sandwichs they now use .... boggles me how the public buys it.


that's the MIM stuff. all USA stuff is 3 peices and CS are 2 peices.


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## Hypno Toad

5 piece bodies? Holy crap. Could use that as a cutting board. Unless you are chambering or using some center wood, I don't see why it'd be more than two pieces.


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## keeperofthegood

Hypno Toad said:


> 5 piece bodies? Holy crap. Could use that as a cutting board. Unless you are chambering or using some center wood, I don't see why it'd be more than two pieces.


kqoct Walmart needed the space so they cut down the trees.... BUT you have ample parking now so you can get Guitar Hero really easy, and thats doesn't need trees!!



EDIT: I should back up a spate. One of my fav writers once wrote a prologue to a novel. It recounted her journey back to her home town to accept an award I believe. She was looking forward to many things. The trees, the babbling brooks, seeing the deer and the duck crossing the dirt road into town. What she found when getting there was row houses followed by row malls with the occasional walmart to break up the monotony.


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## YJMUJRSRV

gone fishing


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## al3d

YJMUJRSRV said:


> Guess what I saw with my own eyes was wrong ... that pile in front of me sure seemed like 5 pieces bodies with caps on either side ... I must have been travelling thru alternate dimensions in the space time continuum


you visited Corono and saw this yourself?...instead of ironic replies, maybe you could tell me how you came to see this!...the info i got was from a video took i got from the fender Rep. i did'nt go there myself. Fender does'nt realy give tours unless if for some publicity realy.


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## YJMUJRSRV

gone fishing


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## fraser

al3d said:


> that's the MIM stuff. all USA stuff is 3 peices and CS are 2 peices.


alain, i think thats a gross generalization, and a misinformed one.
i seriously doubt there are no 2 piece bodies in fenders u.s.a production, and do a search on the reranch- theres several threads, but one in particular, from last year. dude stripped a brand new u.s.a strat to find 7 pieces.
ive seen older u.s.a made stuff that where 4 or 5 pieces- i doubt they decided to halt that practice.

i stripped an 07 mim- was 2 pieces alder under a veneer lol.
there are few absolute truths when youre talking about fender- always been that way.


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## ajcoholic

I dont get the whole "if its X number of pieces it no good" thing...

There are so many more important things to care about in a guitar - whether a body is 2, 3 or 5 pieces isnt one of them IMO..

AJC


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## al3d

i'm not generalizing, this is what i was told . maybe it's an average, but 7 peices!..that's over the top..LOL. But i agree with ajcoholic....number of peices is a bit irrelevant. but 7 peice might be a reach on any guitars..LOL

And YJMUJRSRV, without all due respect, if what you're saying is true, why should anyone beleive what you're saying!..i mean this IS the internet, why should we take your saying for fact!...see the irony?..i'm sure you've vent there. but there's more truth then a man who spend 1hrs in a shop.


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## copperhead

mmm. i have a 07 US strat 3 color sunburst it has a 3-piece alder body .i guess they save the 7 piece for for solid opaque colored bodies


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## ajcoholic

copperhead said:


> mmm. i have a 07 US strat 3 color sunburst it has a 3-piece alder body .i guess they save the 7 piece for for solid opaque colored bodies


My 06' hardtail in sunburst has a 3 pc body. One joint is very hard to see, the alder matches really well.

It plays so well, if it was 5 pc I could care less.

AJC


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## YJMUJRSRV

gone fishing


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## copperhead

post it everywhere it might be a good thing for custom builders, it could be the only place to get a 2 piece body after being lied to by the big companies.


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## Jim DaddyO

I've never been able to understand the "one piece is better" argument. Some of the most desireable guitars have bookmatched bodies, that's 2 pieces. Then there are LP's with bookmatched tops, that's 3 pieces, Mahogany bottom with 2 pieces on top. How many pieces in a good acoustic?? Kinda defeats the argument right there. The "strat" that I am building has 5...bookmatched top and back in ash, and a chambered maple core.


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## al3d

YJMUJRSRV said:


> It never ends with you does it? Moses could part the sea for you and you'd look at him and say "sure ... but could you part it twice?"


Just trying to use your logic man. Like you said, we can't beleive everything we read on the net..


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## fraser

Jim DaddyO said:


> I've never been able to understand the "one piece is better" argument. Some of the most desireable guitars have bookmatched bodies, that's 2 pieces. Then there are LP's with bookmatched tops, that's 3 pieces, Mahogany bottom with 2 pieces on top. How many pieces in a good acoustic?? Kinda defeats the argument right there. The "strat" that I am building has 5...bookmatched top and back in ash, and a chambered maple core.


thats the thing- with regular strat or tele bodies it doesnt really matter.
the examples you give are done that way either for looks, or as a tonal combination.
if i buy a new fender product, i get mim, or even squier- not because i dislike or distrust fender, but because im cheap, its good enough, and im only going to modify it anyway- not going to fork over $1000 or more for a guitar that needs upgrading-
my initial point was that i didnt believe that fender u.s.a had standardized all its models to 3 piece. still dont believe it. why wouldnt they use a 2 piece? or a 5 piece?
maybe im wrong, i can live with that.


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## copperhead

sorry if I'm hijacking
some people got to have a high end or vintage guitars just to be TRENDY to empress people .i have at least a dozen guitars id say my favorite is a strat with a basswood body that i got off evilbay a few years back for $60 and an old mightymite maple neck the rest is cheap Korean parts except the pickups which i wound myself. I've been packing back & forth between Newfoundland & Alberta for over a decade it looks like a roadworn strat you cant beat it .i do have a US strat ,the main reason i got it was to compare the quality of the guitars i built


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## Hypno Toad

ajcoholic said:


> I dont get the whole "if its X number of pieces it no good" thing...
> 
> There are so many more important things to care about in a guitar - whether a body is 2, 3 or 5 pieces isnt one of them IMO..
> 
> AJC


I agree, but I don't usually paint my guitars, so a 5 piece alder body w/natural finish would look sort of cheap if it wasn't pinstriped with different woods.

If you're painting a guitar it doesn't really matter anyways because you're already hiding wood grain that would look good otherwise.



If I had a solid piece of ash, and a bunch of thin ash cuts, I would use the ash cuts for a painted guitar, and the one piece for a natural finish. I don't mind "bookmatching" as long as I can make the grains line up. Often I find bookmatching can make the top look better since the woodgrain will converge in on itself. This is really a matter of looks for me.


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## shoretyus

ajcoholic said:


> My 06' hardtail in sunburst has a 3 pc body. One joint is very hard to see, the alder matches really well.
> 
> It plays so well, if it was 5 pc I could care less.
> 
> AJC


My 66' has 3 pcs that are not well matched. The net says it's no good so in to the stove she goes....:sport-smiley-002:


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## fraser

copperhead said:


> sorry if I'm hijacking
> some people got to have a high end or vintage guitars just to be TRENDY to empress people .i have at least a dozen guitars id say my favorite is a strat with a basswood body that i got off evilbay a few years back for $60 and an old mightymite maple neck the rest is cheap Korean parts except the pickups which i wound myself. I've been packing back & forth between Newfoundland & Alberta for over a decade it looks like a roadworn strat you cant beat it .i do have a US strat ,the main reason i got it was to compare the quality of the guitars i built


ive got a couple basswood strats that i love. its all about the sum of its parts adding up to something greater. the pickups, and then the neck are what makes or breaks an electric guitar- the rest isnt much but fluff, as i see it anyway, so long as the individual parts all jive with each other. 
thats why something like pine or cedar makes sense to me as a guitar body.
you can get it from any lumber yard- its cheap, and it works.
my esquire, way up above, was put together using a body that hammguitars made me- he didnt even want any money for it. i got the pickup and bridge from another forum member cheap, the neck some chrome parts and guard from allparts, set of klusons, and all the other wee bits from a local ebay seller. its a cheap ass guitar. about $400 into it- had hammguitars taken my money, id be under $500 all told. and ill never part with it- it is killer in every way.
http://guitarscanada.com/Board/showthread.php?t=16112&highlight=esquire


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## fraser

shoretyus said:


> My 66' has 3 pcs that are not well matched. The net says it's no good so in to the stove she goes....:sport-smiley-002:


everybody knows your just kidding pat....:smile:


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## ajcoholic

Hypno Toad said:


> I agree, but I don't usually paint my guitars, so a 5 piece alder body w/natural finish would look sort of cheap if it wasn't pinstriped with different woods.
> 
> If you're painting a guitar it doesn't really matter anyways because you're already hiding wood grain that would look good otherwise.
> 
> 
> 
> If I had a solid piece of ash, and a bunch of thin ash cuts, I would use the ash cuts for a painted guitar, and the one piece for a natural finish. I don't mind "bookmatching" as long as I can make the grains line up. Often I find bookmatching can make the top look better since the woodgrain will converge in on itself. This is really a matter of looks for me.


I understand the asthetics - I often use a 1 or 2 piece body because I can... but I have also made 4 and 5 piece bodies... 

But I dont think it mater much for tone...

AJC


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## Hypno Toad

ajcoholic said:


> But I dont think it mater much for tone...
> 
> AJC


Yeah, it wouldn't unless they did an awful gluing job


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## keeperofthegood

ajcoholic said:


> I understand the asthetics - I often use a 1 or 2 piece body because I can... but I have also made 4 and 5 piece bodies...
> 
> But I dont think it mater much for tone...
> 
> AJC


Actually, I have three questions. Just intellectual questions really.

1) are glue seems strong? Will they be danger points for the guitar as the surrounding wood drys/hydrates for splitting

2) is the wood just cu flat and glued? Wouldn't a dove tail type joint make the wood act more solid or be over the decades stronger?

3) If we are talking tone, and the tone not changing, how come? Is the tone actually generated in a far more concentrated zone than the whole of the body? If it is the whole of the body, shouldn't tone be tunable with the use of mixed woods? And if you mix woods would then not have very different ways of expanding and shrinking in response to environment and be at more risk at the seams?

>_> Ok, strictly speaking thats a lot more questions, but yea. Just stuff I am wondering about really.


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## ajcoholic

keeperofthegood said:


> Actually, I have three questions. Just intellectual questions really.
> 
> 1) are glue seems strong? Will they be danger points for the guitar as the surrounding wood drys/hydrates for splitting
> 
> 2) is the wood just cu flat and glued? Wouldn't a dove tail type joint make the wood act more solid or be over the decades stronger?
> 
> 3) If we are talking tone, and the tone not changing, how come? Is the tone actually generated in a far more concentrated zone than the whole of the body? If it is the whole of the body, shouldn't tone be tunable with the use of mixed woods? And if you mix woods would then not have very different ways of expanding and shrinking in response to environment and be at more risk at the seams?
> 
> >_> Ok, strictly speaking thats a lot more questions, but yea. Just stuff I am wondering about really.


I am a woodworker by trade. In my 15 years working full time - and at least another 10 part time growing up with my dad (our family business has been going for 40 years) we have glued a LOT of wood togther... 

My point is, a properly made wood to wood joint - just a simple flat plane or butt joint, is VERY strong. IF the tow mating pieces are in good contact with each other (ie flat) and also you use a good grade of wood glue, and it is within the right conditions (ie, wood is properly seasoned/dry and the glue is not too cold, etc).

A properly made glue joint is stronger than the wood you are gluing. I have, many time, dempnstrated this by glueing two pieces of wood together and then breaking them apart. Very rarely will the joint fracture on the glue line.

You do not need any mechanical type of joint when gluing a guitar body together (no dovetail, no machined glue joint, no dowels or biscuits, etc). A butt joint is plenty strong.

As far as tone and changes go - this is a thing which has been argued to death and probably will be for the rest of mankind 

I seriously doubt (and yes, thats just my opinion) that anyone would be able to tell if a body was one, two or three pieces of wood. If you took a single slab of wood and made a body, then took the same piece, ripped it in two and reglued it, would you hear a difference? I doubt it. But maybe some would? I know I wont. I am normal human, not super human - as are my ears 

I think the actual choice of wood (specie, and particular piece ) makes far more difference than an extra glue line or two.

AJC


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## shoretyus

ajcoholic said:


> As far as tone and changes go - this is a thing which has been argued to death and probably will be for the rest of mankind
> 
> AJC


Tone is highly concentrated in that little area ... _at the end of your fingers_



ajcoholic said:


> I think the actual choice of wood (specie, and particular piece ) makes far more difference than an extra glue line or two.
> 
> AJC


Yeah.. take a one piece and smear it with glue and put a maple cap in it. That's lots of glue. .... good pu's go a long way to good music.


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## Hypno Toad

"Ron Kirn" apparently did some a spruce solid strat body, and got favorable results. Most people seem to say it's very acoustic, and makes for loud electrics. To the point where you can play them audibly while they are unplugged.










Well, I sure want to get my hands on some. Seems sitka spruce is a very common and populated tree species, so I don't see why a sizable amount of spruce wouldn't be cheap. Would love to make myself a nice (but cheap hardware) strat. It's apparently feather light aswell. Bodies weigh almost nothing (in comparison to other woods)


Would love to try a padauk neck, spruce body. That should give some interesting results. Midrange of padauk with the resonance and warmth of spruce. Both very pretty woods, too. That shall be my next project 9kkhhd


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## Sparrow Guitars

I was testing out a template, and I had a chunk of cedar. I havnt made it into a tele yet, but it is hilariously light. I don't think you'd really want to play it, but it'd be interesting to hear. Maybe I'll slice it up into a bunch of tops for thinlines.


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## shoretyus

Sparrow Guitars said:


> I was testing out a template, and I had a chunk of cedar. I havnt made it into a tele yet, but it is hilariously light. I don't think you'd really want to play it, but it'd be interesting to hear. Maybe I'll slice it up into a bunch of tops for thinlines.


Why ? I play mine every week. You don't grunt when you lift them up.


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## Hypno Toad

Isn't hilariously light a favorable feature as long as the guitar isn't too neck heavy?


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## worn

I have built a few Teles, some in alder, a few ash, but the last one I built for myself is 3 piece sugar pine, nicely grain matched. Very light and comfortable, best sounding Tele I've had yet.


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## rhh7

I have a new Tele body, solid sitka spruce, routed for humbucker in the neck, strat pickup in the middle, traditional bridge. Pictures soon.


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## Davidr8

shoretyus said:


> I think all these home builders using pine do it because it's easy to get, and they don't have good machinery.


In my experience, the only way to get good results with pine or fir is with very sharp tools; because the wood is soft, dull edges simply crush the wood. I test the sharpness of my handtools (planes, chisels) on the end grain of a piece of pine. If it can make a clean cut, the tool is plenty sharp. 

Cheers,
David


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## gtrguy

rhh7 said:


> I have a new Tele body, solid sitka spruce, routed for humbucker in the neck, strat pickup in the middle, traditional bridge. Pictures soon.


Where did you get it? I'm interested in doing a sitka tele myself...


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## rhh7

Met a custom guitar builder in Calgary, he had bodies of ash, mahogany, and sitka spruce...I got the last spruce he has for now.


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