# Right or wrong



## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

So I know the basics of theory
And it has served me well! Am I wrong just to learn songs because I for one don't want to learn anymore theory at least the minute?

I know it's the old adage, more theory more knowledge but!

I find I am able to listen to my favorite song, deduce the tonic and the chords! Their is usually some type of technique in the song etc! I am not book smart when I comes to music but I know by listening and experimention that I will be able to get it. Book smarts doesn't motivate me at all.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Learn it one way; learn it both. In the long run they add together. The stuff you learned by the song will start to make sense with the theory you have learned. When you get to that point every thing seems to find a place in your mind puzzle to fit together.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

More of the right kind of theory makes learning songs easier, faster.

But don't let anything get you down, keep buggering on.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Psst ..Songs are practical applications of theory .... your still doing theory 
%h(*&


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Learn songs because you want to. Learn theory because you want to. There's no one forcing you to do any of it. Take a month off if you want to, you can do that too haha.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Budda said:


> Learn songs because you want to. Learn theory because you want to. There's no one forcing you to do any of it. Take a month off if you want to, you can do that too haha.



Budda what I am try to say is, am I short changing myself because I am not advancing myself in theory??


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Lola said:


> am I short changing myself because I am not advancing myself in theory??


Yes


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Lola said:


> Budda what I am try to say is, am I short changing myself because I am not advancing myself in theory??


Possibly. Many good musicians don't know any theory and make incredible music. Many other musicians know a lot of theory and also make incredible music.

Something you can do is find songs that you really like, and study the theory side of them. It's easier to learn something when you enjoy it.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I think it's possible to write or play great sounding music with a good ear but no theory. I'm not sure the opposite is true. Music and math have a tight relationship but sometimes it's when you break the rules in music that makes the hook or memorable riff. Not true with math - you can't break the rules.

I've had someone tell me the A maj in a particular song can't be an A maj because the song is in G and the scale is blah, blah, blah. I couldn't argue against his rules because he had a lot more theory than me but I don't think you can always say a particular chord won't work with a particular key, either. So I guess while I think theory is a great tool to being a better musician, I don't think it should every over-rule your ear or what you hear in your head when writing. If it sounds right, math be damned. IMO.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Budda said:


> Possibly. Many good musicians don't know any theory and make incredible music. Many other musicians know a lot of theory and also make incredible music.
> 
> Something you can do is find songs that you really like, and study the theory side of them. It's easier to learn something when you enjoy it.


You forgot to mention some musicians know a lot of theory but can't make music. Just saying.


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## luker0 (Apr 18, 2017)

After losing a guitar teacher who moved to Toronto and having him be replaced by another one who's opening sentence was "so what song are we going to play today", I made a conscious decision to step back and re-evaluate why I was learning to play guitar. I came to the conclusion that I did not just want to learn a couple of dozen songs and just play those over and over again like some of my friends do and start learning more theory AND the fret board. A musician friend of mine once said that if you know the circle of fifths and the fret board intimately you can play anything and that you can learn new songs a lot faster.

Since then I've slowed down my learning and started focusing on knowing what notes are where, understanding keys and modes, learning rhythms and rhythmic patterns, and learning to read sheet music. Also, spending a lot of time playing to a metronome or Band in a Box progressions. The ultimate goal is to be able to hear some one call out "12 bar blues in A" and to know what to do in that situation. 

YMMV of course, because everybody plays for their own reasons.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Budda said:


> Possibly. Many good musicians don't know any theory and make incredible music. Many other musicians know a lot of theory and also make incredible music.
> 
> Something you can do is find songs that you really like, and study the theory side of them. It's easier to learn something when you enjoy it.


That's exactly what I am doing. I am not getting out the theory books and slugging over them. I think that this is just a preconceived stupid thought on my part.

I play what I really love to play. That keeps my passion at a constant boil. For example I am learning Girls got rhythm by you know who(lol). There are double stops, bends, string skipping etc. To be able to learn this song the way I want to play it I have to learn all of the previously mentioned to be able to sound proficient at this song. Because it's Angus I give it my all. When you love something so much you naturally try harder. It upps my learning curve to new challenges. I practice so passionately because I want to be able to play this song so badly. I am starting to be able to string stuff together by myself to come up with good improve skills. I am not fast by any means but give me a key in some sort of blues rendition and then I can just let it fly. It's moments like these that tell me that sitting an being on automatic and practicing scales, techniques etc. wouldn't of done me much good anyways because it's just not the same as playing what you truly love to play. I just don't have it in me to just sit there and learn from a book. Book learning isn't as important as I thought was. I can just hear song in my head and just figure it out by ear.

I really like Mike Gross for guitar learning videos. He does the rock n roll classics that I love and grew up with. Fun!


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

"I couldn't argue against his rules because he had a lot more theory than me..."

...


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> If it sounds right, math be damned. IMO.


 The idea of learning scales is to know what right is. I hear what your saying about playing note you want, but unless the note is totally off the wall , it will fit into some musical rule .


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Hey Lola .... fuel for your fire


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

shoretyus said:


> Hey Lola .... fuel for your fire


Just the best effing Saturday night song ever. OMG you know I am just about to grab my guitar and go crazy.

You sir are the Blues Man! Just my style. This song is naughty but still nice! It has a low key growl to it. lol

I absolutely *loved *this. WOW!

I play a lot with just my ear. It rarely fails me.

This song "Born under a bad sign" follows a pattern. One that's so familiar to me. Not quite a 12 bar blues because the first eight bars are the 1 chord.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

delete


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

I am still up learning all the little solo nuances that everyone is playing! I can add or subtract whatever I wish too.


Looking a Eric Clapton, Albert
king and a few others just to get some riff ideas

Day off so I really don't care when I sleep


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

High/Deaf said:


> I think it's possible to write or play great sounding music with a good ear but no theory. I'm not sure the opposite is true. Music and math have a tight relationship but sometimes it's when you break the rules in music that makes the hook or memorable riff. Not true with math - you can't break the rules.
> 
> I've had someone tell me the A maj in a particular song can't be an A maj because the song is in G and the scale is blah, blah, blah. I couldn't argue against his rules because he had a lot more theory than me but I don't think you can always say a particular chord won't work with a particular key, either. So I guess while I think theory is a great tool to being a better musician, I don't think it should every over-rule your ear or what you hear in your head when writing. If it sounds right, math be damned. IMO.


Well if this person actually new music theory, going as far back as who the hell knows when, then they'd realize that there are things called parallel chord substitutions as well (ie: subbing Am (ii in key of G) for A Major in this case).

As per the thread, theory is a 2 way street. If you apply what theory you know to your cover tunes or your own, and how everything basically relates to something else, you are on your way. It's a 2 way street insomuch that it is possible to get too bogged down with thinking about the relationships and not actually playing or applying them. Then they simply become time wasting excercises. Just apply it to what you do Lola, like a few have already mentioned. It'll open up other questions for you and it will indeed allow you to learn songs much more quickly.

There is no right or wrong. But it's easier to break the rules when you are aware of them.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Yea, I know enough theory to keep me dangerous, but there are others who know more than me. I'm not going to argue with them about one chord in the chorus of Hot D0g because I can't be bothered and it's over in 3 minutes. It's just frustrating hearing his minor over my major (twice in the song) and know he will never go and listen to the recording because the root, fundamental, lydian mode, circle of 99s, transversal arpeggios, yada yada yada................

There's a lot of cool things that would have never been written or recorded if all we ever did was follow the rules. Like the Beano album.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

I know enough to get by!

I know the circles of 5ths, major triads ,minor triads. Blues, major, minor and of course major and minor pentatonic scales and a lot more.

What's playing hell with me is my vibrato! I am choosing my own as there is no right or wrong was to do it's! Too many cooks!


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## luker0 (Apr 18, 2017)

A couple things to the posts above.
1) Theory and rules are not the same. By this I mean no theory will ever say "thou shalt not subsitute a Major chord for a minor". This happens all the time in jazz and other styles. However, some styles of music have "rules" as forms to what is being played. Saying "12 bar blues in G, with 1-4-5" let everybody know that the expectation is G-C-D. Now if you decided to play a a Cm instead as the 4 chord that will clash with the other people on stage with you who are playing a C and the notes relative to the chord.
2) One of the reasons I'm digging into theory is that I had a question for a friend once about what notes can you play around an A chord or an Am chord and I got a blank stare back. He knew dozens of chords inside and out and knew many riffs but had no clue what were the notes he was playing. Knowing that the only difference between an A and Am is the the C is sharp in the former and natural in the latter is a really good thing and opens up the potential for you. If you are playing with others and the song has a stated chord progression, if you arbitrarily decide to substitute an Am for an A you could trip up say the bassist who will be playing a C# to your C. Now the fun part is what if this is planned as part of the emotion that your band might be trying to get across, having one not a semi-tone off on one instrument vs another might have a cool impact.
3) Another cool thing that is coming out of this is being to understand what happens when we use alternate tunings on a guitar. A given chord shape in standard tuning will have a totally different tonality with other tunings that may or may not sound great. But knowing what is where on a fret board one can "easily" adapt and change to those alternate tunings to come up with some pretty cool stuff. Having that knowledge ahead of time would mean faster learning than just going by ear.

Sure you can "know" this stuff by ear and never know any theory, but having a common language and knowledge when playing with others sure comes in handy. Again, this is all from my perspective as I'm learning new things and with the goals I have set for myself. There is no wrong way as long as you are enjoying yourself.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Lola said:


> I know enough to get by!
> 
> I know the circles of 5ths, major triads ,minor triads. Blues, major, minor and of course major and minor pentatonic scales and a lot more.
> 
> What's playing hell with me is my vibrato! I am choosing my own as there is no right or wrong was to do it's! Too many cooks!


Honestly, as far as *most* rock and roll is concerned, you know what theory you need to know to a) compose and b) quickly learn. "Once you know one scale, you know them all" haha


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Budda said:


> Honestly, as far as *most* rock and roll is concerned, you know what theory you need to know to a) compose and b) quickly learn. "Once you know one scale, you know them all" haha


Modes are tricky though! I started to learn them and said "screw it".

I am armed with what I need to get the job done.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Lola said:


> Modes are tricky though! I started to learn them and said "screw it".
> 
> I am armed with what I need to get the job done.


If you know any scale patterns, you already know your modes. It's just starting and ending a scale run (major, minor, it doesn't matter) in a different spot. It's that easy. Instead of starting on note 1 of your major scale, for example - try starting on the 4th and run that octave instead. That's a mode. Don't ask me which one . Same group of notes just started and stopped in a different spot.


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## luker0 (Apr 18, 2017)

Lydian


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Budda said:


> If you know any scale patterns, you already know your modes. It's just starting and ending a scale run (major, minor, it doesn't matter) in a different spot. It's that easy. Instead of starting on note 1 of your major scale, for example - try starting on the 4th and run that octave instead. That's a mode. Don't ask me which one . Same group of notes just started and stopped in a different spot.


Yah, that's the way I thought of them for a long time, and still do to a certain extent. You have to be aware of which chords and tones to use and avoid though, but the way you've stated it is a great way to start that Mode ball rolling. I found that when I was jamming with my buddy who I was also giving guitars lessons to, I'd tell him just to play the C Major scale as I played each diatonic chord in the scale for 12 or so barre's....just to give him a feel of how the same notes can sound like a different animal over each chord. Didn't matter about the bad (passing or avoid) notes. Gave him a good idea of what you can do with a simple major scale over chords in the same key. I'd suggest trying that for anyone interested in finding new sounds. At least you'll hear some stuff that you've heard before and put it together.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Yeah, it's an "aha" moment when you hear a few things.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

I do know my scales. It's like putting a puzzle together.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2017)

Lola said:


> I do know my scales. It's like putting a puzzle together.


a new member, @luker0, has a pretty good grasp on it.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

laristotle said:


> a new member, @luker0, has a pretty good grasp on it.


Yup. Further to my previous post (which was a VERY paired down idea) on what is actually happening, I happened upon this little tidbit of Wiki info on a very well known Rock and Blues Mode, the Mixolydian. Which many here are very familiar with.

I don't want to side line the thread Lola, but I really have to post this for shits and giggles on how complicated something like a b7 in the Major scale can be.



> Enharmonic genus of the Greek Mixolydian scale on E: conjunct tetrachords _a_ and _b_, with note of conjunction _c_, and interval of disjunction _d_  Play (help·info)
> The idea of a Mixolydian mode comes from the music theory of ancient Greece. The invention of the ancient Greek Mixolydian mode was attributed to Sappho, the 7th century B.C. poet and musician.[2] However, what the ancient Greeks thought of as Mixolydian was very different from the modern interpretation of the mode.
> 
> In Greek theory, the Mixolydian _tonos_ (the term "mode" is a later Latin term) employs a scale (or "octave species") corresponding to the Greek Hypolydian mode inverted: in its diatonic genus, this is a scale descending from _paramese_ to _hypate hypaton_: in the diatonic genus, a whole tone (_paramese_ to _mese_) followed by two conjunct inverted Lydian tetrachords (each being two whole tones followed by a semitone descending). This diatonic genus of the scale is roughly the equivalent of playing all the "white notes" of a piano from B to B, or B | A G F E | (E) D C B, which is also known as modern Locrian mode. (In the chromatic and enharmonic genera, each tetrachord consists of a minor third plus two semitones, and a major third plus two quarter-tones, respectively)


Good luck figuring that sucker out folks....haha


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

The term mode and the modes themselves have been different things throughout history, but they keep reusing the same names.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

This is very interesting and is a definite must for understanding of linking scales together instead of playing in a "box".


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## dolphinstreet (Sep 11, 2006)

I love applying theory, and I've got a solid understanding of how complex harmony functions. However, the most important thing is to make good music. If you have no idea what's going on theory-wise, but you're doing great anyway, you're good. On the other hand, if you sometimes feel limited or doesn't know what to do when you discover a new chord or progression, etc, then maybe you should learn more theory.

Theory is not a silver bullet to playing better. It's all about understanding how scales, chords, notes function together. With a better understanding, I believe you can go farther or in more directions, musically speaking.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

For sure Robert. When I went to GMac back in the 90's for jazz (not my favorite BTW, great theory though), there were guys that knew their theory inside and out. A few times when I went to jam with them, I quickly found out that they couldn't play worth crap. It's certainly a big give and take.


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## dolphinstreet (Sep 11, 2006)

Just remember that even if you have a vast knowledge of theory does not mean you have to play complicated things. Understanding is different than performing.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

How much theory do you think Neil Young knows?

He seems to do alright.


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## luker0 (Apr 18, 2017)

dolphinstreet said:


> Just remember that even if you have a vast knowledge of theory does not mean you have to play complicated things. Understanding is different than performing.


Some of the people I respect most who have a large amount of knowledge seem to be the ones playing the least number of notes, they just know which are effective ones to play and when. 

My current teacher is getting me to experiment while I'm learning things and then think about what I've experimented and why it feels right or wrong. I have an exercise I'm doing which boils down to playing root, third, fifth, and back to third arpeggios. I'm to pick a chord progression in a specific key, then play those 4 note arpeggios for each chord in the progression. Once I know that then lead each note by one scale tone above or below. I'm finding some really interesting sounds coming out of this exercise and some chord progressions that I like more than others. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## dolphinstreet (Sep 11, 2006)

luker0 said:


> My current teacher is getting me to experiment while I'm learning things and then think about what I've experimented and why it feels right or wrong. I have an exercise I'm doing which boils down to playing root, third, fifth, and back to third arpeggios. I'm to pick a chord progression in a specific key, then play those 4 note arpeggios for each chord in the progression. Once I know that then lead each note by one scale tone above or below. I'm finding some really interesting sounds coming out of this exercise and some chord progressions that I like more than others.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You have a good teacher. That is one of the most beneficial exercises you can ever do. Why? Because it's MUSICAL - it's focusing on the good sounding notes. You still have to develop good phrasing, but it takes away the guesswork on which notes are strong. I do this too with my students.


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## luker0 (Apr 18, 2017)

Yeah my friend Tom is an excellent teacher and exactly what I need to learn the way I learn. Unlike my last teacher who's attitude was "what are we playing today". Did not work for me at all.

One cool thing about the exercises I've been doing, the whole concept of 'resolving' totally makes sense now. And it feels good when I nail a certain pattern in a progression and the music resolves. Side benefit, I'm really starting to learn where each of the notes are on the fingerboard in the first 5th frets. I'm five keys in, ten to go


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

luker0 said:


> Yeah my friend Tom is an excellent teacher and exactly what I need to learn the way I learn. Unlike my last teacher who's attitude was "what are we playing today". Did not work for me at all.
> 
> One cool thing about the exercises I've been doing, the whole concept of 'resolving' totally makes sense now. And it feels good when I nail a certain pattern in a progression and the music resolves. Side benefit, I'm really starting to learn where each of the notes are on the fingerboard in the first 5th frets. I'm five keys in, ten to go


The brain needs to hear certain tones as resolution notes to make sense of things.


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## emoshurchak (Feb 13, 2017)

dolphinstreet said:


> Theory is not a silver bullet to playing better. It's all about understanding how scales, chords, notes function together.


I wanted just enough theory to be practical. I found "Guitar Theory Made Useful" (Get Guitar Theory Made Useful — Guitar Theory Made Useful) very helpful.


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

Lola said:


> So I know the basics of theory
> And it has served me well! Am I wrong just to learn songs because I for one don't want to learn anymore theory at least the minute?
> 
> I know it's the old adage, more theory more knowledge but!
> ...


I'd be hard pressed to tell you what note each string is on the guitar. I played tuba in the school band for three years not knowing how to read music and have played guitar for over 20 years with very little theory to run on. I am not an advocate of theory but I would not dissuade anyone from studying it. I love playing punk rock and AC/DC but not the soloing parts. Something about a hard driving rhythm gets me going.


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