# Holy Shite



## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

7 taken to trauma centre, 1 in custody after van strikes pedestrians in North York
man what is going on with this


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Apparently the guy said 'kill me' as they pulled him out of the van to arrest him. White dude, so either rather dim-witted right wing extremist or a plain old nutter.


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

Crazy world out there. Everyday something like this makes me wonder where we are heading.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Why didn't they just shoot this piece of shit down. I guess cause he wasn't a kid on a street car in mental distress that posed no immediate danger to anyone.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> Why didn't they just shoot this piece of shit down. I guess cause he wasn't a kid on a street car in mental distress that posed no immediate danger to anyone.


The van wouldnt have stopped if they just shot the driver. 

This is terrible. Hoping no one copycats.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Budda said:


> The van wouldnt have stopped if they just shot the driver.
> 
> This is terrible. Hoping no one copycats.


No I'm talking about when the driver was walking towards the cop holding his cell phone out trying to get the cop to shoot him. Cop should have filled his request.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

guitarman2 said:


> No I'm talking about when the driver was walking towards the cop holding his cell phone out trying to get the cop to shoot him. Cop should have filled his request.


I'd rather he spend a long time in a tiny little windowless cell rotting over what he did. Death is an easy out.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

jdto said:


> I'd rather he spend a long time in a tiny little windowless cell rotting over what he did. Death is an easy out.


This is Canada. Insane plea followed by 2 years treatment in a mental facility, followed by release and anonymity to protect his privacy.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

i used to work at the corner of Yonge and finch before I moved home to Halifax. Terrible thing to have happened.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

guitarman2 said:


> This is Canada. Insane plea followed by 2 years treatment in a mental facility, followed by release and anonymity to protect his privacy.


I doubt it. Plus, killing him could mean less information if he’s part of a larger plot or something. The cop was bang on and did a fantastic job.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> No I'm talking about when the driver was walking towards the cop holding his cell phone out trying to get the cop to shoot him. Cop should have filled his request.


Yes because knee-jerk reactions are definitely the best possible idea in this scenario. This man totally deserves to die a quick death instead of facing what he's done and the (flawed) justice system of Canada. The cop definitely should have ignored all of his training and acted purely on emotional response, because that's how I always want Canadian police officers to operate.

Definitely.


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## Guest (Apr 24, 2018)

And put the cop through inquiries and media bashing?
The officer did what he was trained to do.
Hopefully the perp will be put in the general population in prison.
He'll be dealt with there.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

laristotle said:


> And put the cop through inquiries and media bashing?


Yeah, that was kinda my take on it too. Cop is likely a decent enough dude just wants to go home when its over and not be in a position where he has to live with whackin someone even if they did deserve it.


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## SaucyJack (Mar 8, 2017)

This is crazy. 10 dead now.


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

Just saw the video of the police officer keeping his cool and not shooting the suspect when he reached in his pocket really fast and pretending to have a gun.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Apparently another lost soul... sad, very sad.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

jdto said:


> I doubt it. Plus, killing him could mean less information if he’s part of a larger plot or something. The cop was bang on and did a fantastic job.


Agree. And interesting to hear someone, anyone, call for police violence and heavier-handed response, when that's a major issue all over the continent right now. Kinda abhorrent, and completely antithetical to both secular western values (due process etc) and Abrahamic/biblical values.


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

I dont know about you guys but it takes a fair amount of restraint and coolness.
I would dare say that most people would have reacted differently.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

A former student of mine is working in TO now and had just entered the Starbucks nearby when the van went by.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

That cop has nerves--and balls--of steel. When the guy was moving to his waistband like he was going to draw on him, it must have been very hard to keep his head.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

Mooh said:


> A former student of mine is working in TO now and had just entered the Starbucks nearby when the van went by.


That is the building I worked in.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

I saw the video today of the cop drawing down on him. I could not believe the people on the sidewalk. Maybe wake up and take cover? What is with people?


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

jb welder said:


> I saw the video today of the cop drawing down on him. I could not believe the people on the sidewalk. Maybe wake up and take cover? What is with people?


Most likely the people warning stickers are aimed at.


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## Guest (Apr 25, 2018)

jb welder said:


> I could not believe the people on the sidewalk. Maybe wake up and take cover? What is with people?


'Hmm .. what's happening here?
Must be a camera somewhere shooting a movie.
After all, this the center of the universe, something like that(!) is not allowed here'.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Actually, if the perp REALLY wanted to be shot, he would have taken a run at the gawkers.


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

Another lost soul who should have been on medication and the very sad part is that there is no way to stop these things from happening anywhere. I sure wish there was some way to help these folks who decide that this is the thing to do for whatever is their reason, how very sad.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Ship of fools said:


> Another lost soul who should have been on medication and the very sad part is that there is no way to stop these things from happening anywhere. I sure wish there was some way to help these folks who decide that this is the thing to do for whatever is their reason, how very sad.


It starts with understanding of what this whole "incel" subculture is and what are the root causes of it. Of course, there's no way to stop someone who's decided to do something like this, but there are ways to prevent people from getting to this point.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

jdto said:


> It starts with understanding of what this whole "incel" subculture is and what are the root causes of it. Of course, there's no way to stop someone who's decided to do something like this, but there are ways to prevent people from getting to this point.


I don't understand it either. I mean, I've known some pretty ugly and sketchy guys, and they got laid. Seems to me you either have to develop a better personality, be a nicer person, or lower your standards. I mean, I wouldn't expect Jessica Alba to be calling me up no matter how many hours I've held up her picture with one hand. The only reasons he can't get a date is entirely on his shoulders. I'm no prize, and I did.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I don't understand it either. I mean, I've known some pretty ugly and sketchy guys, and they got laid. Seems to me you either have to develop a better personality, be a nicer person, or lower your standards. I mean, I wouldn't expect Jessica Alba to be calling me up no matter how many hours I've held up her picture with one hand. The only reasons he can't get a date is entirely on his shoulders. I'm no prize, and I did.


There are probably a ton of factors that @mhammer might explain better than I do. Low self-esteem and repeated rejections combined with unrealistic expectations based on how society portrays sex (porn, magazines, TV, movies etc.) and especially with worldwide access to others in the same situation. Rather than getting help and healing, they form a groupthink circle where they amplify and reinforce the negative side of their situations. The echo chamber effect removes them further and further from reality and they start to think their version of the world is the only version. The glorification of the kid in California is a perfect example of how twisted their worldview is. This guy is a hero to them and so they seek to emulate him to also become heroes and gain some sort of status in a world where they feel they have none.

That's my amateur analysis, anyway


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The ultra-short stint in the military says much about the fellow. At the absolute very least, he's a poor judge of social situations. Maybe somewhere on the autism spectrum? I don't know. But all the incoming reports from folks who knew him one way or another indicate lousy calibration of social skills. It's hard for folks with Asperger's and such. It's certainly no _excuse_ for doing anything so terrible, but if you can't make lasting deep friendships, it gets mighty lonely and frustrating. I've known some folks around that zone on the spectrum, and try as they might to be pleasant and charming, their inability to gauge the appropriateness of their comments and actions gets in the way, big time.

Ugly obnoxious guys can get laid...surprisingly often, sometimes....but it's because they can easily fake intimacy, or else are competent judges of who does not require intimacy to put out. If you can't fake it or judge it, you get marginalized.

Again, not a sob story or excuse. I'm just trying to explain how things happen.


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

Making friends is never easy and when you have poorer social skills it becomes almost impossible for some folks as we all know one or two folks who may fall into this category. I know when my kids where in High School there were a few folks who were ostracized and ignored by other students as they were so different from the rest ( wheelchair bound ) and you see in the long run how it effected them one became stronger for it where as the other hid inside of herself.
And the pain that his family must be enduring is awful to and I can't begin to imagine how a family copes with knowing what their child did to others, how do you get over that and still love your child and maybe even the guilt that one must feel that maybe if I had done this or that this might not have happened.
Let us hope that maybe mental illness will become more of a issue that gets tackled and that the Provinces will start to seriously fund mental health and help stop this from ever happening again.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

This guy got laid. A lot. Need I say more?


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

When hearing such news stories for the first time, it's hard not to start supposing. My first thought was derangement by drugs, mental illness, or both. For some reason I don't immediately assume an act is hate driven. It's in our nature to try to make sense of things, with or without information or education, though we don't always err on the side of hope and love.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Ship of fools said:


> Making friends is never easy and when you have poorer social skills it becomes almost impossible for some folks as we all know one or two folks who may fall into this category. I know when my kids where in High School there were a few folks who were ostracized and ignored by other students as they were so different from the rest ( wheelchair bound ) and you see in the long run how it effected them one became stronger for it where as the other hid inside of herself.
> And the pain that his family must be enduring is awful to and I can't begin to imagine how a family copes with knowing what their child did to others, how do you get over that and still love your child and maybe even the guilt that one must feel that maybe if I had done this or that this might not have happened.
> Let us hope that maybe mental illness will become more of a issue that gets tackled and that the Provinces will start to seriously fund mental health and help stop this from ever happening again.


I was listening to a segment on_ The Current_ this morning on "incel culture". And while understanding it is important, those who focus on it are leaving many dots unconnected.

There is a whole research literature on rejected, neglected, and "wallflower" children. These are kids who, when researchers ask all the kids at a school, or in a grade, "who are you friends with?", get left out of friend lists...a lot. And it starts as early as school age does. In some instances, such children are described by their age-mates as being disruptive in some manner. So, they may not want to follow the rules of a game that relies on cooperation among players. Or they may be impulsive and easily distracted. Or they may get angry easily. In other cases, they may simply lack any of the social skills and "opening lines" that attract others toward them ("Hey, wanna see something cool?" "Interested in playing X?"), resulting in them simply being left out. The good news is that in intervention studies, one can train appropriate social skills and improve a child's social acceptance and integration into the peer group. The bad news is that a study doesn't reach everybody, such that there are still plenty of kids who lack any of the skills that integrate them into their peer group, leading to greater and greater marginalization, and resentment of others, forging beliefs about one's "enemies", culminating in things like the "incel" group, or other anti-social groups (Isis, et al.).

We focus on the young men aspect of it, overlooking the fact that the roots of belief systems that are so deeply entrenched they cannot respond to friendly advice with "Yeah, I guess you're right", have their roots many years beforehand.

Teach your kids how to be friendly, how to make friends, how to get along nicely with others, how to make them feel good about themselves, how to make others feel good about themselves. It's pretty much the best security system we've yet devised.


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## JazzyT (Nov 1, 2017)

jdto said:


> It starts with understanding of what this whole "incel" subculture is and what are the root causes of it. Of course, there's no way to stop someone who's decided to do something like this, but there are ways to prevent people from getting to this point.


One more terrorist from the alt-right.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

If you are having all kinds of social problems, maybe the problem isn't them, it's you. The best thing you can invest in is yourself. That is not news, it's pretty common knowledge. Get a book, get a mental health pro, watch a program.....it's all free. Just start investing in yourself instead of blaming the rest of society for what ails you. If you don't take the time to care for yourself, how do you expect anyone else, with less vested interest, to do it?


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

JazzyT said:


> One more terrorist from the alt-right.


Dismissing a whole bunch of disparate groups as one big amorphous "alt-right" is not going to fix things. There is a lot of anger and hate out there. These guys have serious issues that need to be addressed. 

It's easy for someone who is well-adjusted to say, like @Jim DaddyO did above, "help yourself", but it's not so easy to do. I suffer from depression and there are days where it literally puts me right out of commission. I can't function. I am fortunate to have good support and a family who helps and understands, but not everyone does. 

As a society, we have some responsibility to watch out for one another and that is the prevention of which I was speaking earlier. These guys didn't just become this way overnight. There are signs, there are reasons and, while certainly that is no excuse for doing what this monster did, we can hopefully use what we've learned from this situation to reduce the chances of it happening again.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

jdto said:


> Dismissing a whole bunch of disparate groups as one big amorphous "alt-right" is not going to fix things. There is a lot of anger and hate out there. These guys have serious issues that need to be addressed.
> 
> It's easy for someone who is well-adjusted to say, like @Jim DaddyO did above, "help yourself", but it's not so easy to do. I suffer from depression and there are days where it literally puts me right out of commission. I can't function. I am fortunate to have good support and a family who helps and understands, but not everyone does.
> 
> As a society, we have some responsibility to watch out for one another and that is the prevention of which I was speaking earlier. These guys didn't just become this way overnight. There are signs, there are reasons and, while certainly that is no excuse for doing what this monster did, we can hopefully use what we've learned from this situation to reduce the chances of it happening again.


I can only speak of my own experiences. I too suffer from anxiety and depression. I didn't recognise it for a while and it was shocking the way I did find out. But I did find out I had issues and got help. I still have to deal with it every day, but now I know what it is and recognise it. 

No one could have told me I needed help. I wouldn't have believed them. You have to do it on your own. Friends, neighbours, co-workers, family, not one person in society could have convinced me until I saw it myself. No one else was responsible for dealing with it, just me. So, even if someone else was "watching out" for me, that would not have done any good. Until you are personally willing to take responsibility for yourself there is nothing (short of having you committed) anyone else can do to help you. If you are having trouble making friends, getting dates, or any other kind of social problems, you have to take a good hard look at yourself. It isn't the whole rest of the world that is to blame, they are not obliged to bend to your will or idea of how things ought to be. To paraphrase Jordan Peterson, you have to clean your room yourself. 

Lashing out is not acceptable, particularly when it costs lives. It is juvenile, immature, and irresponsible to yourself, your family, your friends, and everyone else you have contact with. I can sympathise with people having mental health issues, I know what it is like. I do not though, if they are not getting themselves the help they need when they know about it and use it as a crutch or excuse instead of facing the issue. If this person belonged to a group of "incel" complainers, he knew there was a problem. Instead of choosing to get help, he chose to associate with a bunch of enablers.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

LOL good old Jordan Peterson...repackaging platitudes and getting people to quote him. I’m still waiting for him to say something original. 

Anyway, you make good points and yes, it does have to come from you, but if you’ve suffered from depression, then you know that sometimes a lifeline or a helping hand can be invaluable. I’m not putting the onus on society to fix these guys, but at the same time I do think we can recognize signs and make a contribution. It still has to come from the individual, but if the individual knows there’s help and understanding out there, then they might not turn to 4chan or forums full of bitter and hateful people.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

jdto said:


> LOL good old Jordan Peterson...repackaging platitudes and getting people to quote him. I’m still waiting for him to say something original.


I don't know much about Dr. Peterson - may not have even heard anything by him before his interview with Bill Maher last week. It may not all be original, but it certainly flies in the face of the current 'snowflake' mentality / agenda. I found it quite refreshing to hear, especially considering our current political climate. Sometimes you need to strip things back to basics and quit tip-toeing around the obvious.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Easy for me to say because I had more chances than most people and didn't have any kind of depression to deal with but here's the advice that I got from my mother. She was a hardass, always fought for right and when she was very young she got a scholarship to attend university. Her parents didn't want her to go so she got the neighbor to sign whatever was needed and left home. She had a successful career and lived to 96.

What she told me was this:

1. You have a good brain but you won't use it. If you'd spend as much time at your studies as you do bangin on that guitar you could be a doctor or a lawyer.

2. If you want to achieve something bad enough you will find a way.

3. You will be one step up the ladder in life once you realize that no one is going to help you.

4. She could drive cars really fast and had no respect for law and order ... lol


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

I suppose so, if you accept that the “snowflake mentality/agenda” is actually an issue. It doesn’t seem to me like power has shifted too far out of traditional hands, though.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

jdto said:


> LOL good old Jordan Peterson...repackaging platitudes and getting people to quote him. I’m still waiting for him to say something original.


But that is just it, isn't it? Everything he says has been known thousands of years (he uses a lot of the paradigms found in the bible to start). If it has been a standard thought for that long, and they worked, why do we not still listen to and try to adhere to them today? This stuff hasn't stood the test of time for nothing, or to be ignored, or negated.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Wardo said:


> Easy for me to say because I had more chances than most people and didn't have any kind of depression to deal with but here's the advice that I got from my mother. She was a hardass, always fought for right and when she was very young she got a scholarship to attend university. Her parents didn't want her to go so she got the neighbor to sign whatever was needed and left home. She had a successful career and lived to 96.
> 
> What she told me was this:
> 
> ...


One of the best ones around our house was "the best helping hand you will ever get is at the end of your own arm". I think your mom and mine thought a lot alike.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Jim DaddyO said:


> But that is just it, isn't it? Everything he says has been known thousands of years (he uses a lot of the paradigms found in the bible to start). If it has been a standard thought for that long, and they worked, why do we not still listen to and try to adhere to them today? This stuff hasn't stood the test of time for nothing, or to be ignored, or negated.


I just don’t get how anyone could sit and listen to that pompous windbag. As for the bible, I’m not gonna get into it. Not my thing.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

jdto said:


> I suppose so, if you accept that the “snowflake mentality/agenda” is actually an issue. It doesn’t seem to me like power has shifted too far out of traditional hands, though.


True. Maybe it isn't an issue. It might just be 'old man-itis' on my part. 











But kids seem weak these days. And uni isn't makin' 'em any harder, from what I can tell. The bit about how they expect us to surround ourselves with bubble wrap instead of being able to take a bump here and there rings very true, IME. Life is feckin' hard. Sometimes they need to just person-up.

I am also aware this is a time-immemorial mantra. Every generation has their own version ........


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

High/Deaf said:


> True. Maybe it isn't an issue. It might just be 'old man-itis' on my part.
> 
> View attachment 197929
> 
> ...


Yeah, I sometimes find myself doing the same thing 

I don't know if kids are weak. The world is a very different place than when I was a kid, but the vast majority of young people I know and interact with are bright and seem tough enough. I think there's a narrative in some media that the world is going to hell, but it's always been that way. We also get bombarded with a 24/7 flow of information these days, so they need to fill the time with whatever story they can get. In North America, the generation with the most money and power are still the Boomers, so they make a rich target for nostalgia, "in-my-day" and "kids-these-days" stories.


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

I also suffer from sever depression knowing that my life will end before I am really ready is not an easy pill to swallow but to say help yourself when even the pro's can't really help. I get why it can be frustrating for those with some mental health issues and who knows why someone snaps and boy I'll say the world is not the same place nor even close to what it was when I was a child.
Heck can remember being out all day playing while the front door of our house was left unlocked and we would walk to downtown and catch a movie once in a while but at the same token we didn't have instant news like today and we rarely heard about someone who may have had a break down and killed someone and of course all the bad things that happened back then are just multiplied so much more with condensed cities and because its reported 5 seconds after it has happened we are so much more aware and maybe even afraid to some degree.
It can't be easy for many who may suffer in silence and loose control over their ability to fight their own demons so in some ways I am not surprised by this happening and wonder sometimes why it doesn't happen even more often. I can say without any doubt that it is the one part of health that all governments keep failing to do anything about and talk about how they are going to fix it but never get anywhere with it just seems to me that they do not want to fund mental health and help stop some of the madness that goes with it.
I think sometimes its just to easy to turn our backs and ignore the situation and its always easy to criticize something we may fear looking at.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

https://nypost.com/2018/04/27/the-online-incel-culture-is-real-and-dangerous/


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

jdto said:


> Yeah, I sometimes find myself doing the same thing
> 
> I don't know if kids are weak. The world is a very different place than when I was a kid, but the vast majority of young people I know and interact with are bright and seem tough enough. I think there's a narrative in some media that the world is going to hell, but it's always been that way. We also get bombarded with a 24/7 flow of information these days, so they need to fill the time with whatever story they can get. In North America, the generation with the most money and power are still the Boomers, so they make a rich target for nostalgia, "in-my-day" and "kids-these-days" stories.


"Stress" is a consequence of the evaluation of ther challenges one faces, and the resources you can bring to bear to meet those challenges. If the perceived challenges exceed the sum total of material, information, and emotional resources that can be summoned, then those challenges get perceived as stressors. Those resources can be provided by oneself, by one's social network (including family, friends, and other sources, like institutions, help-groups, etc.)

So for me, the question to be addressed is what might lead a person to perceive that they have insufficient emotional, informational, and material resources. Do they misjudge/overestimate the extent of the challenges, or do they underestimate what resources are available, whether one type or any of the others, or some combination?

In some respects, one might say that, in a culture that changes fast enough that kids don't perceive their parents or grandparents as viable and valid sources of useful advise, and who don't have enough life experience themselves to assess whatever challenges they face, perhaps they are penalized from both ends.


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