# Grand Theft Auto..... ethics?



## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

First let me say I'm not a gamer, and I haven't seen this thing. Everyone is raving about it tho' so I went to YouTube and watched a snippet of it. Well, I don't get it. The bit I saw involved some self-serving thug wandering around the streets with a gun, pushing people out of the way, riddling a cop car with bullets, and killing cops. The comments (which I can only assume are from 10 year olds) are lauding this stuff: "I esp liked at 2:16 when he kills the cop!". First of all, why would a game company make such a game that aggrandizes violence, and isn't anyone else worried about the long term effects of this stuff on kids?


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

Yes, it is crazy. My thirteen year old is all over that one - but I won't buy it.

I was watching TV last night, which I never do, but I couldn't help but think that people believe that there are serial killers running rampant in the streets and killing aimlessly.... show after show after show of serial killers and murderers. When was the last time anyone you knew was murdered by someone they didn't know.

And what is with Def Leppard playing on 'Dancing with the Stars'??? 



Gilliangirl said:


> First let me say I'm not a gamer, and I haven't seen this thing. Everyone is raving about it tho' so I went to YouTube and watched a snippet of it. Well, I don't get it. The bit I saw involved some self-serving thug wandering around the streets with a gun, pushing people out of the way, riddling a cop car with bullets, and killing cops. The comments (which I can only assume are from 10 year olds) are lauding this stuff: "I esp liked at 2:16 when he kills the cop!". First of all, why would a game company make such a game that aggrandizes violence, and isn't anyone else worried about the long term effects of this stuff on kids?


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Hamm Guitars said:


> Yes, it is crazy. My thirteen year old is all over that one - but I won't buy it.


Good stuff - +1 for parental responsibility.


Hamm Guitars said:


> I was watching TV last night, which I never do, but I couldn't help but think that people believe that there are serial killers running rampant in the streets and killing aimlessly....


All the better to separate people and fill us with fear. Would this be mostly US-made shows by any chance?


Hamm Guitars said:


> And what is with Def Leppard playing on 'Dancing with the Stars'???


Not sure-never heard of 'Dancing with the Stars'-but I'm guessing it's because they're crap?


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

Hamm Guitars said:


> Yes, it is crazy. My thirteen year old is all over that one - but I won't buy it.
> 
> I was watching TV last night, which I never do, but I couldn't help but think that people believe that there are serial killers running rampant in the streets and killing aimlessly.... show after show after show of serial killers and murderers. When was the last time anyone you knew was murdered by someone they didn't know.


We've made murder and death into huge entertainment. Just look at the popularity of CSI.




> And what is with Def Leppard playing on 'Dancing with the Stars'?


I know! LOL They're promoting their new album!! Is nothing sacred anymore? LOL


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## LowWatt (Jun 27, 2007)

Grand Theft Auto is not for kids. 

I love the series. I think it's a testament to fine video game development. I'm excited that the new plot line revolves around someone who does not want to be involved in crime, but feels trapped in it. I like that there will be a certain morality to the plot and the characters. 

Still, Grand Theft Auto is like the edgiest of gangster movies (the plot of the new one reminds me of a mix of Brother and Eastern Promises actually). It is meant for adults, but it easily gets into the hands of children. I don't blame the developers. They are making the video game they want for an audience of their peers - people who grew up on the drama of violence and crime in movies and can deal with the mindless escapism that comes with it.

Who I do blame are the parents who let children play GTA and the video game industry (and movie industry as well) for not regulating its products well enough. Basically, I'm a 29 year old adult who enjoys everything from reading great works of literature to violent video games and all stops in between. 

Still, everytime a group of morons get together and cream their pants over digitized violence, they make themselves look like fools and risk me having easy access to the games that I love.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

actually, i was reading cnet's review, and they're saying that what's interesting about this installment of GTA is that it's the first one that shows the main character as being hurt by his own actions, paying some sort of price to his character. 

i think they're incredibly well written games. i'm in total agreement with lowwatt, actually... and frankly, they're the new media for people to express themselves with. no one gets mad that goodfellas is violent. or taxi driver..... they're recognized as art, with a story to tell... so is GTA, frankly.... the responsability lies with parents to pay attention to what their children are doing.


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

devnulljp said:


> ...All the better to separate people and fill us with fear. Would this be mostly US-made shows by any chance?


I would guess so - CSI, Dexter and a few others I flipped through. I ended up watching a show about an alien named Phil that landed in Canada - not the best movie I've seen by a long shot, but it was covered in real Canadian cheese...



devnulljp said:


> Not sure-never heard of 'Dancing with the Stars'-but I'm guessing it's because they're crap?


I've never seen it before either, it's like a ballroom dancing show with judges like American Idol. Doesn't look like any rock type band belongs on that show - no matter how crappy they might be, it's just going to be out of place.


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

Gilliangirl said:


> First of all, why would a game company make such *a game* that aggrandizes violence, and isn't anyone else worried about the long term effects of this stuff on kids?


It's exactly that... _a game_. If the player(s) can't tell the difference between a game and reality they need to seek help. Thankfully most do understand the difference. It's not everyday you hear about a kid taking a flamethrower to a prostitute and then stealing a car just because he did it in GTA, lol. Games are meant to be fun so if you'll have fun shooting cops and blowing up helicopters, why not? 

The question should be why wouldn't they make one? Think of all the free publicity they get my making such a controversial game. The fact that the media talks about it being "so violent" just makes people want it more. Next thing you know a kid gets it from his parents or a teen/adult buys it and they talk about it with their friends and then their friends buy it and it just repeats itself until the next "big game" comes out. That brings in a whole lot of cash and think, they didn't have to spend on a dime on it... it's free marketing!


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

violation said:


> It's exactly that... _a game_. *If the player(s) can't tell the difference between a game and reality they need to seek help. Thankfully most do understand the difference.* It's not everyday you hear about a kid taking a flamethrower to a prostitute and then stealing a car just because he did it in GTA, lol. Games are meant to be fun so if you'll have fun shooting cops and blowing up helicopters, why not?
> 
> The question should be why wouldn't they make one? Think of all the free publicity they get my making such a controversial game. The fact that the media talks about it being "so violent" just makes people want it more. Next thing you know a kid gets it from his parents or a teen/adult buys it and they talk about it with their friends and then their friends buy it and it just repeats itself until the next "big game" comes out. That brings in a whole lot of cash and think, they didn't have to spend on a dime on it... it's free marketing!


Violation - I encourage you to explore the psychology behind that statement. You may be surprised at what you find.

While I agree wholeheartedly that we should be able to make our own choices as adults, there is some stuff that just shouldn't be on the market. I've seen all kinds of entertainment media where I've asked myself "what the hell is that?"

I love FPS's and watch UFC as much as I can - so I'm definitely not anti violence - I just think that the GTA franchise is crap, and harmful in general. 

my 2 cents


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## Tarl (Feb 4, 2006)

Video games like movies, TV shows and music are a personal choice. I have never played any of the GTA games but with IV getting rave reviews I might try it out. This game (and many others) is not for children and parents need to take some responsibility in what their kids are up too. In the end it is all about fantasy, whether the game is a shooter, racing game or sports sim.....they are about playing a role.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

Tarl said:


> Video games like movies, TV shows and music are a personal choice. I have never played any of the GTA games but with IV getting rave reviews I might try it out. This game (and many others) is not for children and parents need to take some responsibility in what their kids are up too. *In the end it is all about fantasy*, whether the game is a shooter, racing game or sports sim.....they are about playing a role.


Tarl. I understand what you are saying and I fully agree with a persons right to make a choice. But what happens when the line between fantasy and reality gets blurred? Because as much as you would like to believe it doesn't, it actually does.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Gilliangirl said:


> We've made murder and death into huge entertainment. Just look at the popularity of CSI.


Just look at TV news...especially in the buildup to the Iraq invasion.
Doesn't surprise me at all to hear revelations that the pentagon was fiddling with reporting. GTA and all the other violence in media is a side effect of all this militainment.


Gilliangirl said:


> I know! LOL They're promoting their new album!! Is nothing sacred anymore? LOL


There was a cheesy spandex n hair FM metal band from my hometown in the 80s that killed their already faltering career and lost any cred they ever had by appearing on the Eurovision Song Contest.


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## Tarl (Feb 4, 2006)

Stratin2traynor said:


> Tarl. I understand what you are saying and I fully agree with a persons right to make a choice. But what happens when the line between fantasy and reality gets blurred? Because as much as you would like to believe it doesn't, it actually does.


Some unbalanced folks do blur fantasy and reality, and that is an unfortunate effect of living in a (somewhat) free society. We can never predict who will see Superman as a harmless entertaining hero or who will try to fly by jumping off a building......so do we ban Superman? I've heard all these arguments before in my university days when I dabbled in a little game called Dungeons and Dragons, and that was back in the 70's. Either we are free to choose our own entertainment, as long as others do not suffer by it, or we follow what we are told is the nice and kind and dare I say...politically correct path. It seems that there is very little concern for the very popular Military based shooting games were most of the "enemy" are either eastern European or from real or fictional Muslim countries. I play and enjoy these games myself but I am sure some people take offense from them. It is not about the game itself but the attitude the player takes towards the content. Again whether it is a book (Catcher in the Rye was actually banned!) movie (Texas Chainsaw Massacre totally disgusted alot of folks) or TV show (Jerry Springer anyone) some predisposed people will embrace it as reality no matter what we do.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

Stratin2traynor said:


> While I agree wholeheartedly that we should be able to make our own choices as adults, *there is some stuff that just shouldn't be on the market*. I've seen all kinds of entertainment media where I've asked myself "what the hell is that?"


well, the problem is, who makes that call? you? me? tipper gore? 

there's just no freedom without freedom of expression, and that includes (and really, what's most important to protect is) what you don't like.

the responsibility does not fall on our governments to ban the sale of adult material, in case a child should see it. it falls upon the parents to love and raise their children with a hands-on approach. the gun rampages that are happening with increasing frequency aren't about video games.... yes, those involved were video gamers. that's because they weren't able to deal with real life people, not because the game is violent... this is the same thing we went through with judas priest being blamed for a fan's actions... it's crazy.... i listen to slayer, i haven't killed anyone.... because i have friends and family who, if i were to disappear into my room and make pipe bombs for the next six months, would find me and help me.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

LOL! I'm certainly not an advocate of extreme censorship. But I think as a society we have to look at the big picture and collectively agree on what's ok and what is not. Just because there may be a market for something it doesn't mean it should be produced, sold and promoted. There is a market for snuf films. I'm sure there would be a market for a video game that allows the gamer to violently rape small children and kill them when they are done or keep them as little sexual pets. Let's face it, there would be a market for pretty much anything you can imagine. Doesn't make it ok. We all have our opinions. The one way I choose to protest GTA and similar games is by not buying them and discouraging my kids from playing them if their friends happens to have it. I'm not standing on a soapbox and pointing fingers, just stating my opinion. Cheers!


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

Tarl said:


> Some unbalanced folks do blur fantasy and reality, and that is an unfortunate effect of living in a (somewhat) free society. We can never predict who will see Superman as a harmless entertaining hero or who will try to fly by jumping off a building......so do we ban Superman? I've heard all these arguments before in my university days when I dabbled in a little game called Dungeons and Dragons, and that was back in the 70's. Either we are free to choose our own entertainment, as long as others do not suffer by it, or we follow what we are told is the nice and kind and dare I say...politically correct path. It seems that there is very little concern for the very popular Military based shooting games were most of the "enemy" are either eastern European or from real or fictional Muslim countries. I play and enjoy these games myself but I am sure some people take offense from them. It is not about the game itself but the attitude the player takes towards the content. Again whether it is a book (Catcher in the Rye was actually banned!) movie (Texas Chainsaw Massacre totally disgusted alot of folks) or TV show (Jerry Springer anyone) some predisposed people will embrace it as reality no matter what we do.


Sorry Tarl. Forgot to address your remark about the Military Based FPS's. I don't think they are right either especially the latter which depict our present day "enemy" according to those who are apparently in the know. Personally I think they are riding the slippery slope of promoting hatred or at the very least prejudice. I have to admit that while I have enjoyed playing COD and the like WW1&2 FPS, I much prefer FPS's like Halo and other sci-fi type FPS that depict faceless aliens as the bad-guys.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

Stratin2traynor said:


> LOL! I'm certainly not an advocate of extreme censorship. But I think as a society we have to look at the big picture and collectively agree on what's ok and what is not. Just because there may be a market for something it doesn't mean it should be produced, sold and promoted. There is a market for snuf films. I'm sure there would be a market for a video game that allows the gamer to violently rape small children and kill them when they are done or keep them as little sexual pets. Let's face it, there would be a market for pretty much anything you can imagine. Doesn't make it ok. We all have our opinions. The one way I choose to protest GTA and similar games is by not buying them and discouraging my kids from playing them if their friends happens to have it. I'm not standing on a soapbox and pointing fingers, just stating my opinion. Cheers!


well, i didn't think you were in favour of extreme censorship. don't worry, i'm not taking any of this personally... 

but. there's a pretty slippery slope involved. as soon as it's ok to ban GTA, then it's ok to ban something just a little less offensive, and etc. pretty soon, we're being told what to watch and not watch. you're right that there's a market for everything, there's some pretty twisted people out there. but GTA i think is being unfairly targeted, because the media and the world at large is still holding on to the idea that video games are for kids. comic books caused a big flap when they were put out for adults, too... 

and. since we're talking about things there's a market for that shouldn't be sold, what about guns? or cigarettes? or alcohol? what about bananas (look into the history of chiquita, they've killed a lot more people than GTA ever has)? again, who is going to make these decisions? you say "we", but who would that be? the government? they don't make decisions with out best interests in mind, you know that. 

IMO, the way you choose to protest is the best way to do so. talk to your children, tell them the game is for adults, and that you don't want them to play it... if everybody did this, then GTA would still sell in droves, but it would be to people who are old enough to have a worldview that is already shaped, and won't be changed by some violent video game (and i still think that what damages kids isn't the video game, it's being left alone all the time... children need love and attention, not solitude).. i think that most of the problems the general public have with the GTA franchise stem from the fact that they're too caught up in their own lives to raise their kids on their own, so they want the rest of the world to do it for them instead... cheers back, lol.


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

Gilliangirl said:


> We've made murder and death into huge entertainment. Just look at the popularity of CSI.


It's nothing new, nor is it anything to be alarmed about. 

Ever read Sherlock Holmes, Hamlet, or the Epic of Gilgamesh? They all predate video games and television.

When Johnny Cash's released the song "Delia's Gone", some people were claiming that it was a sign that the recording industry was increasingly glorifying violence...The original version was written over 100 years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akNPhD8Su1M

Also, one of the darkest mainstream Hollywood movies of late, Sweeney Todd, is based on a popular Victorian-era story.

So, should death and murder be entertainment? Maybe, maybe not...but watching CSI or playing GTA pales in comparison to going to watch public executions and criminals left to die in cages hung in the public square as people did 300 years ago in Canada.


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## skydigger (Oct 20, 2007)

Do you all censor your kids music as well?

GTA is a video game, no more, no less.

I doubt GTA causes any more harm than listening to marilyn manson.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

skydigger said:


> Do you all censor your kids music as well?
> 
> GTA is a video game, no more, no less.
> 
> I doubt GTA causes any more harm than listening to marilyn manson.


That's interesting, because I would place them both at opposite ends of a spectrum of harm...iff you make sure the kids (obviously old enough -- teenagers I guess) listen to what he's saying and don't just react to the presentation. MM is theatre, I don't really like it to listen to, but he's not really that poster boy for fear he's made out to be. I'd put him in the same box as Frank Zappa. Yes, on first appearance he’s shocking and all—that’s kinda the point. (I saw a very puerile TV report on FZ that summed him up as “known for lascivious lyrics” or something like that…they do the same thing to MM and it’s a pathetic dumbing down, that he always seems quite keen to correct). 
I think Bill O’Reilly and Anne Coulter are far worse for society than some video game or a guy wearing makeup singing about sodomy. Same could be said for Blackhawk Down and the TV show 24. 

Never thought I’d see the day I’d be defending Marilyn Manson…what is the world coming to? 

FWIW, I don’t like GTA or gaming in general — I don’t really see the difference between random shooting of “cops” and “anyone else”. Why is it OK to randomly nail-gun “Rebel fighters” but not “cops”? (How about a taser mod, and we can all practice tasering people for not paying the train fare?)

FWIW, I will be vetting everything that goes into my wee boy's life from the outside as much as possible -- right now he listens mostly to Raffi so it's not an issue (he's 2), but he's digging John Lee Hooker and Harry Manx too, of which I am proud


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

devnulljp said:


> That's interesting, because I would place them both at opposite ends of a spectrum of harm...iff you make sure the kids (obviously old enough -- teenagers I guess) listen to what he's saying and don't just react to the presentation. MM is theatre, I don't really like it to listen to, but he's not really that poster boy for fear he's made out to be. I'd put him in the same box as Frank Zappa. Yes, on first appearance he’s shocking and all—that’s kinda the point. (I saw a very puerile TV report on FZ that summed him up as “known for lascivious lyrics” or something like that…they do the same thing to MM and it’s a pathetic dumbing down, that he always seems quite keen to correct).
> I think Bill O’Reilly and Anne Coulter are far worse for society than some video game or a guy wearing makeup singing about sodomy. Same could be said for Blackhawk Down and the TV show 24.
> 
> Never thought I’d see the day I’d be defending Marilyn Manson…what is the world coming to?
> ...


LOL! The Province would have a hey day with that one.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Stratin2traynor said:


> LOL! The Province would have a hey day with that one.


Hey, we could call it *Grand Killing Random Polish Dudes at the Airport by Zapping them with 50,000 Volts* what do you think?


*Oh man, I think I've been reading Reddit too much this month haven't I?


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

skydigger said:


> Do you all censor your kids music as well?
> 
> GTA is a video game, no more, no less.
> 
> I doubt GTA causes any more harm than listening to marilyn manson.


I don't know if I would call it censor but we discuss what they listens to. I try to teach my kids to listen to the lyrics and understand what the band/singer is talking about. I've learned that my son, like most other kids, would latch onto a verse and believe that the song was about one thing. Then we would sit down and examine the lyrics and figure out that the lyrics were actually metaphors and the band/singer meant something else. Or maybe the song was a comment on some portion of our history (like Iron Maiden). Now I see him reading the lyrics to everything he listens to. 

In a nutshell I try to teach my kids to question things and to be aware what goes into their heads. I showed my son a clip of the movie "Idiocracy" where Dax Shepard is sitting in front of a TV mumbling and giggling as if he had just eaten the last of his brain cells and I remind him that there are enough people out there close to that state - don't be one of them. I'm proud to say that so far, he's not. :banana:


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Gilliangirl said:


> First let me say I'm not a gamer, and I haven't seen this thing. Everyone is raving about it tho' so I went to YouTube and watched a snippet of it. Well, I don't get it. The bit I saw involved some self-serving thug wandering around the streets with a gun, pushing people out of the way, riddling a cop car with bullets, and killing cops. The comments (which I can only assume are from 10 year olds) are lauding this stuff: "I esp liked at 2:16 when he kills the cop!". First of all, why would a game company make such a game that aggrandizes violence, and isn't anyone else worried about the long term effects of this stuff on kids?


I have never actually played that game so am not familiar with the plots or gore. But I assume it is like many other vid games out there, many of which I have played. Like I mentioned on another thread, there is nobody alive that gets more pleasure in stalking Nazi's or Mexican Mafia or whatever villain is out there. Blowing there heads clean off with a high powered rifle or watching them blow apart into 100 pieces after I frag them. Blood and gore to the max. I have also mentioned that there is no connection (for me) with that and real life. It is merely a vid game. But I was also not subjected to these types of games when I was young. When I was growing up we had pong and pacman. So the violence factor has clearly intensified. Neither of my kids ever got into vid games, they are now 22 and 20 and still dont play them. I certainly made them available, but they just dont ge into them at all.

If they were youngsters, there would certainly be game titles that I would not let them play. They are simply too explicit, the language in a lot of them is pretty bad too.


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

Hmmm, I've been seeing on the net and TV people talking smack about this game as well as raves.

I just wanna say....

I don't care. Let the gamers play what they want 

Cheers!


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## LowWatt (Jun 27, 2007)

Paul said:


> *When George Reeves was playing Superman in the 50's, he would should up at publicity events in the cape costume. That stopped the day a young boy under 10 years old showed up with a loaded gun because he wanted to see bullets bounce off of Superman's chest. Reeves managed to talk the kid out of the gun.*
> The reality is that the human brain is not fully developed until we are in our 20's. The ability to separate fantasy from reality is NOT fully developed in children. The ability to discern right from wrong is NOT fully developed in children. That is why we don't as a rule prosecute children as adults.
> 
> *A 7 year old that watches mom or dad play GTA,or any other inherently violent game. is going to get the message that the story as it unfolds is OK.* Not just that game playing is OK, but that the storyline is endorsed by mom & dad. When dad gets excited at a "kill" or a theft, the child WILL learn a lesson. Repeated exposure helps engrain that lesson.
> ...


All points go to the parent. Any parent who lets loose playing GTA in front of their 7 year old, better be using it as a mechanism to teach them about the difference between reality and games (and even then I think it's a stretch) or I consider it dangerous. Any 10-year-old who can get a gun and can get himself to a major publicity event without the parent noticing, has a crappy parent.

It seems like we only have two extremes of parenting anymore :
1. Letting society (friends, games, TV, music, etc...) raise your kids whille you do your own thing.
or
2. Overly structured childhoods that rob a kid of their imagination and wonder as they are shuffled from one rigid organized event/club/team to another.

I know that there are plenty quality parents out there, but everything in our society seems to cater to those 2 groups. The ones that have no handle on their kids and the ones that handle them to the point of strangulation.

Sorry for the digression.


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## hoser (Feb 2, 2006)

1. it's rated 17+
2. it's not made for kids.

end of story.


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

hoser said:


> 1. it's rated 17+
> 2. it's not made for kids.
> 
> end of story.


Do you think that a rating is going to stop this game from getting into the hands of young computer-savvy teens?


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

Gilliangirl said:


> Do you think that a rating is going to stop this game from getting into the hands of young computer-savvy teens?


They'd need a modded console since it's not on PC (well, San Andreas was but that's old). If the parents don't want them to play violent games but allow their child or teen to download pirated material or have unlimited Internet access and own a modded console it's their fault. Only other ways a young one can get it is from a relative or a friend... which if the parent is anti-violence they can stop that from happening relatively easy.

Personally I don't see the big deal... me and my brother (a year older than me) played any and every kind of game since I can remember (had every new console that came out since the NES up to the 360) and we're not violent. Plus we watch every UFC event (monthly + TUF + the other stuff on Spike). He's the first one to shoot cops in GTA but he's doing a Police Foundations course this or next year and he's currently a part-time security guard.


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## LowWatt (Jun 27, 2007)

Gilliangirl said:


> Do you think that a rating is going to stop this game from getting into the hands of young computer-savvy teens?


Parents can set consoles to block adult rated games. Stores are advised not to sell mature games to children. 

The problem isn't that these games exist. The problem is with the ignorance of parents and the greed of merchants.


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## Extant (Mar 2, 2007)

Several million people play extremely violent video games or are exposed to violence in the media. And overall, crime rates are pretty damn low right now. People aren't _that_ stupid, and statistics reflect that.

Also, ever notice how every single person who goes on shooting sprees and similar and which the media blames violent video games/music for was pretty much already kind of messed up in the head to begin with? It's very Jack Thompsonesque to blame those sorts of things for ZOMG OVERREPORTED CRIME WAVE.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

Gilliangirl said:


> Do you think that a rating is going to stop this game from getting into the hands of young computer-savvy teens?


(*i don't mean to single you out gilliangirl, nor to imply that what i'm saying refers to your beliefs, just using your post as a springboard*)

nope. not for a second (although AFAIK this game is not available for the PC, damn you all to hell rockstar games). but. is this then the fault of rockstar games for selling the game? or, is this then the responsibility of our legislative body to fix? if you haven't seen your kid outside of a chat window for two months, and he/she goes on a crime spree, who's fault is that? society at large? the government? or the parent? 

this kind of argument has been had many times before... tipper gore was making it in the early 90's about rap music (remember body count?).. it's a bogus argument. it is not the government's (nor the public's) responsibility to replace good parenting... although that is precisely what they're doing more and more. we're becoming a society of molly-coddled brats, run by those who think they have some inalienable right to tell everyone else how to live their lives, but who then want to escape their own responsibilities at every single opportunity... 

i'm 100% in agreement with lowwatt here (it seems, lol)... good parenting is what's missing, not restrictions on what games people make and sell.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

suttree said:


> ...if you haven't seen your kid outside of a chat window for two months, and he/she goes on a crime spree, who's fault is that? society at large? the government? or the parent? ...it is not the government's (nor the public's) responsibility to replace good parenting... although that is precisely what they're doing more and more. we're becoming a society of molly-coddled brats, run by those who think they have some inalienable right to tell everyone else how to live their lives, but who then want to escape their own responsibilities at every single opportunity...
> 
> i'm 100% in agreement with lowwatt here (it seems, lol)... good parenting is what's missing, not restrictions on what games people make and sell.


+1 + some more + even more.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

violation said:


> He's the first one to shoot cops in GTA but he's doing a Police Foundations course this or next year and he's currently a part-time security guard.


Now, that's scary.
 (but only half-kidding)


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## hoser (Feb 2, 2006)

Gilliangirl said:


> Do you think that a rating is going to stop this game from getting into the hands of young computer-savvy teens?


Is that rockstar games fault? Should movie studios not release R rated movies because somehow some kids might see them? Should stores stop selling beer and cigarettes because some kids might get ahold of them? and on and on and on we go.

I'm 34 years old, I grew up playing video games and watching horror movies.
I don't really know what what your point is....is it that kids shouldn't play these games? That's what the ratings are for, much like film ratings. Is it that you think that somehow violence in media influences kids to commit crimes? Personally I think thats laughable and on the same level as the paranoia of the 80's that spawned the PMRC and outraged parents who thought heavy metal was turning their kids into satanists.

If you really want to focus on violence in media, start with the 6 o'clock news and shows like CSI, not a video game that's geared towards adults and isn't supposed to be sold to anyone under 17.

btw, I picked up my copy of gta 4 on my lunch break. can't wait for the kiddo to go to bed.


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## LowWatt (Jun 27, 2007)

hoser said:


> btw, I picked up my copy of gta 4 on my lunch break. can't wait for the kiddo to go to bed.


Just got mine on my lunch break too.


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## GibsonTay37 (Mar 31, 2008)

LowWatt said:


> Grand Theft Auto is not for kids.


True but the audience who is buying the GTA games are Kids and the fact that the series has so much Controversy to it is making them want to buy the games even more.

I love the Grand Theft Auto games, and i don't support anything that happens in the game, but if the games are fun to play, ppl will buy them.

That's my 2:smilie_flagge17:cents


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

LowWatt said:


> Just got mine on my lunch break too.


My brother got his last night (sometime after midnight so I guess this morning)... like the rest of the series it's pretty fun.


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## hoser (Feb 2, 2006)

GibsonTay37 said:


> True but the audience who is buying the GTA games are Kids and the fact that the series has so much Controversy to it is making them want to buy the games even more.
> 
> I love the Grand Theft Auto games, and i don't support anything that happens in the game, but if the games are fun to play, ppl will buy them.
> 
> That's my 2:smilie_flagge17:cents


Not true. According to the ESA (Entertainment Software Assoc.) the average game player is 33.

...either way the average kid isn't buying a 60 dollar game, their parents are.


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

For those that will argue that the media has no effect on kids:

I have a thirteen year old son, who on Saturday asked me for some lighter fluid as he saw a 'cool trick' on you tube. I told him to leave my napatha alone, and if I caught him playing with fire I would kick his ass.

Last night he came home with first degree burns on both hands, as he didn't think that anything 'bad' would happen if he let his friends dowse a tennis ball with lighter fluid (as he held it) and then lit it. Of course his hands were covered in fluid and went up immediately.

Needless to say, as soon as his hands are better I'm going to kick his ass.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

Hamm Guitars said:


> For those that will argue that the media has no effect on kids:
> 
> I have a thirteen year old son, who on Saturday asked me for some lighter fluid as he saw a 'cool trick' on you tube. I told him to leave my napatha alone, and if I caught him playing with fire I would kick his ass.
> 
> ...


Sorry to hear about your kids hands. I like your approach though. It's very similar to mine.


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

Thanks,

His hands will be fine, just some a little blistering and a fair amount of stinging.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I guess we have come a long way from lighting farts. Bloody youtube.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Hamm Guitars said:


> Thanks,
> 
> His hands will be fine, just some a little blistering and a fair amount of stinging.


Ouch. but I bet he won't do it again. No ass kicking needed? 
Glad he escaped a stupid activity without lasting damage.

Reminded me of a (very pre-youtube) story about the physicist Richard Feynman -- he tells a story of the magic shows he'd put on as a child for the other neighbourhood kids. His finale would be to (secretly) stick his hands first into water and then into benzine. He would then brush a hand past one of the bunsen burners on either side of his table and scream at the sight of the flames. He'd try to clap the burning hand out, only for his other hand to catch alight. Then he'd chase the hysterical youngsters out into the street and that would be the end of the show. The water is supposed to keeps the benzine floating on top of it moving quickly enough that it doesn't burn the hand.
He talks about trying to convince his university buddies that he had done this unharmed, and repeats the trick for them, realising too late that in the years since he'd last done the trick he'd grown hair on the backs of his hands, each of which functioned as a tiny little wick to deliver the heat to his skin. He finishes by mentioning that after that, he could perform the trick with impunity because he no longer had any hair on his hands...



GuitarsCanada said:


> I guess we have come a long way from lighting farts. Bloody youtube.


Well, that one got Spike Milligan out of the army...


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## SinCron (Mar 2, 2006)

To blame video games for stupid stuff that kids do is just plain stupid. What about the parents that will plop their kids in front of the games and not look at what they're playing. I grew up playing games like GTA (when I rented the original, it was the first time I stayed up all night) and I never went around doing stuff like that. Kids WILL do stupid things. In their nature but it's how they learn. I'm now 22 and I LOVE my violent games like GTA and Postal. I know that doing the things in the games is wrong and I knew it when I started playing the games but that was because I started playing them when I already knew these things. The only negative effect these games have ever had on me were taking up some time . They're excellent for stress relief and just plainly lots of fun. 

Hamm, your kid just ended up doing one of those stupid "live and learn" things. If in the future my kids (when I do have em) want to do stupid things like that, I WILL try to stop them by explaining what could happen but if in the end them and their friends are intent on doing it, I will provide a safer environment for them (me standing over with an ABC fire extinguisher with some burn cream) because they do need to learn and unless they see the negative consequences of it, they'll keep wanting to do it/trying it.


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## GibsonTay37 (Mar 31, 2008)

SinCron said:


> I grew up playing games like GTA (when I rented the original, it was the first time I stayed up all night) and I never went around doing stuff like that. Kids WILL do stupid things. In their nature but it's how they learn. I'm now 22 and I LOVE my violent games like GTA and Postal. I know that doing the things in the games is wrong and I knew it when I started playing the games but that was because I started playing them when I already knew these things. The only negative effect these games have ever had on me were taking up some time . They're excellent for stress relief and just plainly lots of fun.


*I totally agree with your opinion, kids today are influenced by two things: Violent Video Games and Egoistical Music Artists like 50 Cent. I'm 16 years old and I've been playing violent video games for over 10 years, and I'm introducing my younger siblings to these games and what i told them is that the stuff that happens in these games, stay in these games.

my 2:smilie_flagge17:cents *


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## iggs (Apr 6, 2006)

I find CNN way more disturbing then GTA.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

iggs said:


> I find CNN way more disturbing then GTA.


Not to mention Fox


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## LowWatt (Jun 27, 2007)

devnulljp said:


> Not to mention Fox


Yep. Now that's something I see damaging children. Video games don't carry much legitimacy, so called news shows on the other hand...


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

LowWatt said:


> Yep. Now that's something I see damaging children. Video games don't carry much legitimacy, so called news shows on the other hand...


I guess that was my point in the beginning. The stuff you see on the news.... ghastly isn't it? Do you think our society is getting de-sensitized to it? Do you think video games, which are in the hands and under the direct control of the user, have played any part in the fact that our society is getting more violent, as evidenced on the news?

I mean, I don't know, I'm just asking the question. That was my whole point at the beginning of this thread. I did read a study a few years back at university that spoke to the concern that video games put the user in charge and therefore the user is committing these killings, albeit fantasy, and gradually getting desensitized to violence.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

I think there is a desensitization argument but like most I've only heard the extremist and sensationalized version of it - ie: if your child plays FPS' he will grow up to be a mass murderer and kill everyone in his school and will be a much better shot as well. 

Let's face it, we can't watch the nightly news anymore and expect to get the news. The only thing we get is a ratings competition. I used to watch the nightly news religiously but gave it up about 12 years ago. There's just too much crap. If there is nothing "newsworthy" they spend a 1/2 half hour shows gruesome video clips of accidents or disasters and then asking Joe Schmoe what they think about that. 

Still searching for a good news channel. I tend to read the Globe and Mail instead and listen to snippets on the radio occasionally. 

Have I mentioned the movie "Idiocracy"?


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## SinCron (Mar 2, 2006)

Fox news....legitimacy? Naaaaaah. Must have been a mistake.


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

Gilliangirl said:


> ... Do you think our society is getting de-sensitized to it? Do you think video games, which are in the hands and under the direct control of the user, have played any part in the fact that our society is getting more violent, as evidenced on the news?


Definitely. 

I used the example before - porn. Look at it 20 years ago and today and tell me if it's not 100 times more graphic. Some might argue that the internet is to blame for this, but just ask anyone that uses porn if they think that they are getting desesitized to it as time goes on.


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

Paul said:


> I dunno man.....I've watched "Deep Throat" a thousand times and I still say it's a dirty movie!


Yeah, but if they made that movie today it probably would be called 'Deep Butt" and they would go directly back into Deep throat.


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

Paul said:


> Have you been logging into youporn dot com or pornotube dot com?


No, one of my friends is quite the porn monkey - and some of the stuff he shows me just makes me want to puke. 

You got to wonder what is going through these girls minds to 1. do some of these things and 2. agree to let someone film it and sell it. The thought process just boggles my mind.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

Hamm Guitars said:


> You got to wonder what is going through these girls minds to 1. do some of these things and 2. agree to let someone film it and sell it. The thought process just boggles my mind.


that's easy.... "how can i buy more coke"

sorry to hear about your son, hopefully he'll learn from his mistake, right? that's why teenaged bodies still heal well...


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

Hamm Guitars said:


> No, one of my friends is quite the porn monkey - and some of the stuff he shows me just makes me want to puke.
> 
> You got to wonder what is going through these girls minds to 1. do some of these things and 2. agree to let someone film it and sell it. The thought process just boggles my mind.


Two Girls One Cup. Enough said. It took me about a week or two to recover from that video. Porn has gone waaaaaaayyyyyy too far. What's this new obsession with ass to mouth??? Wait forgot I even asked.


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

Paul said:


> Have you been logging into youporn dot com or pornotube dot com?


All of the above + Empornium. lofu



Stratin2traynor said:


> Two Girls One Cup.


Haha my friend barfed when I showed him that shit.

While porn can get pretty crazy, it has it's audience much like GTA. One positive thing about porn is it makes you want to masturbate which apparently helps cut the risk of prostate cancer (hah, like I needed an excuse). Win/win.


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