# Ask Canadian Music store lifer anything!



## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

I figure this could be a fun and informative thread. I can't count the number of people I've met in person and online who have beef with Canadian music stores for one reason or another. Whether it is higher prices than the US, wait times on special orders, bad customer service, etc.

My background: By "lifer", I mean I've spent most of my working life working in music retail in some form or another. I'm only 32 this year, so I guess that means about 16 years of experience. I started out scrubbing the bathrooms and polishing/tuning guitars and moved up to selling products and doing minor repairs. My last position involved many parts of operating the business including managing inventory, shipping/receiving, interviewing/hiring/managing staff, and other day-to-day management duties. Most recently, I started my own business selling guitar & cab parts.

If you've had a not-so-perfect experience with a Canadian music store and are wondering what is happening on the other side of the counter, talk about your experience here and ask any questions you think would be appropriate. I'll do my best to try to explain the possible reasoning (if there is a legitimate reason) of the other side of the story.

Please, no outright bashing or hateful comments. Although, this is GC so I wouldn't expect much of that anyways.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

I come from a background of consumer electronics and computer sales and have often wondered how similar they are to the music industry. My questions are: are some sales people on commission? Do the manufacturers provide spiffs in order to influence what makes and models are sold? If they do does the store or the sales person get the spiff?


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Kerry Brown said:


> I come from a background of consumer electronics and computer sales and have often wondered how similar they are to the music industry.


Probably more similar than people think. The music retail industry (corporate music stores in particular) draws lessons from the successes and failures of other large retail industries, like consumer electronics. Though that isn't always true. A lot of smaller music stores are just some guy who started a music store because he wanted to and runs the business how he wants to run it, regardless of industry trends.



> My questions are: are some sales people on commission?


That depends entirely on the store/chain in question. I have only ever worked for non-corporate stores with non-commission sales staff, so I might not be the best person to ask about how all that works.



> Do the manufacturers provide spiffs in order to influence what makes and models are sold?


I have not personally seen any examples of this, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Maybe some other folks can chime in on that one.

Actually, I have seen exactly the opposite. Some manufacturers make it very difficult to carry their products. Either requiring obscenely high first order minimums (to the tune of up to $80K+ retail value), or requiring you to carry an entire line of their products when you can only afford (or only want) a handful of items.



> If they do does the store or the sales person get the spiff?


Again, I'm not aware of manufacturers doing this. But, I have seen it done at the store level. Small bonuses to anyone who sells that old/crappy piece of gear that no one wants, or who sells the most of product X or Y, etc. Similar rewards systems are used in other retail environments.

Still, some stores do the opposite. Your job is at risk if you don't meet certain quotas. Not fun to work in that kind of environment. Hard on the sales staff and tough on customers because salespeople get a little more pushy and might sell you a bunch of stuff you don't want or need in order to get their numbers up.


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## GWN! (Nov 2, 2014)

The thing that annoys me is that south of the border they always seem to have a sale going on. We get sales in Canada but never like they do. Usually a $25 or $50 dollar gift card of some sort that you need to spend back in the store.

I don't know if the restriction is imposed by the Canadian distributor or the company. Here is a perfect example. Epiphone has a 15% off sale on archtop plus another 15% off on their Century amp. Valid in the US, EU, UK and Japan. Canada ????

http://www.epiphone.com/News/Features/2015/Epiphone-Super-Summer-Jam-Archtop-Sale.aspx


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I have dealt mainly with L&M and really don't have any complaints. They've been pretty good to me. At least the 2 stores closest to me. I guess the only complaint I could have is the complete lack of knowledge the sales staff usually have. But I learned to deal with that a long time a go. I simply do my own research and know what I want in advance. If I need to know anything further I know enough not to expect much if anything from the sales staff. So all I expect from sales staff is ring me out. 
As for the smaller mom and pop shops, at least in my hometown are even worse. they employee wives, sons or other family members that know little to nothing about music gear. And usually the prices are higher than the big box retailers like L&M. To be fair though I haven't dealt with the local mom and pop shops for about 20 years so they could have improved around my hometown, I don't know.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

GWN! said:


> The thing that annoys me is that south of the border they always seem to have a sale going on. We get sales in Canada but never like they do. Usually a $25 or $50 dollar gift card of some sort that you need to spend back in the store.


Despite our large geography, Canada is a surprisingly small market that is spread fairly thin. The whole get money back on a gift card thing is a sales tactic to keep people coming back to the store. Customer retention is a big problem in Canadian music stores because of online competition. If you give people 10% off of a $500 item, they might just buy from you that one time because it is a good deal. If you give them a $50 gift card with the purchase of a $500 item, you've not only given them a good deal at the equivalent of 10% off, but you've also guaranteed you'll get another sale out of them when they come back to use the gift card.



> I don't know if the restriction is imposed by the Canadian distributor or the company. Here is a perfect example. Epiphone has a 15% off sale on archtop plus another 15% off on their Century amp. Valid in the US, EU, UK and Japan. Canada ????
> http://www.epiphone.com/News/Features/2015/Epiphone-Super-Summer-Jam-Archtop-Sale.aspx


Good question. I see stuff like that every once in a while and wonder the same thing. Manufacturer sales on music gear rarely happen in Canada. Truth be told, most local retailers wouldn't be able to give you a straight answer as to why the sale does not apply to Canada because if they weren't notified about it (which they most likely weren't), you probably know more than they do.

In this particular case, you'd have to ask Yorkville. They are the Canadian distributor for Gibson/Epiphone. Interestingly enough, they are also owned by Long & McQuade who are building quite the monopoly in Canada.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

How annoying is it when you get kids coming in and asking to try the Gibson Les Paul Customs etc? Even though you know they probably have a grand total of $40 in their bank account?


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## Guest (Jul 6, 2015)

I once walked into a L&M and asked if they had a spare
'amber top hat knob' (they didn't have any 2/pack on the
hangers) in their parts bin in the back. The older gentleman
came back with an 'amber speed knob'. I then pointed to a
les paul hanging on the wall behind him which had what I
was looking for. He then came back with a 'white strat knob'.
I said 'thanks for your time' and left.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

guitarman2 said:


> I have dealt mainly with L&M and really don't have any complaints. They've been pretty good to me. At least the 2 stores closest to me.


Great!



> I guess the only complaint I could have is the complete lack of knowledge the sales staff usually have.


That seems to be a problem not just in music stores, but throughout the retail industry these days. If I had a good answer for it, I'd be rich! For me it comes down a few things. There are so many brands, products, and small nuances to each that it would be tough for any one salesman to know every product with such great detail. Usually you can find someone in the store who knows about what you're asking, but whether or not they are available to talk to (or the salesman you're talking to asks around the store) is another question.

Another potential reason is that you just need to hire someone. If no one with the right qualifications applies for the job, you can't work double shifts forever to cover the gap. You've got to have someone on the floor, so you settle for the next best thing and hope for the best.

Going off that last one... Believe it or not, the kind of people who apply to work in music stores are rarely the kind of people who know a lot or are interested in knowing a lot about gear. It's amazing how many people I've seen apply for a job in a music store who are not even musicians and/or have no experience with music gear. Sometimes you get musicians, but most of them know nothing about gear (and are unwilling to learn), or they are "fanboys" who know a lot about their favorite brands that you probably don't even sell. It's actually quite rare to see an applicant who is a musician that is knowledgeable about a variety of gear. Most of the people I've met in life who know a lot about gear and are deeply interested in the topic either already have better paying careers or have no interest in being a salesman.



> As for the smaller mom and pop shops, at least in my hometown are even worse. they employee wives, sons or other family members that know little to nothing about music gear. And usually the prices are higher than the big box retailers like L&M.


My first job was at a Mom and Pop shop and you're right on all counts. It comes down to trust more than anything. They don't want to lose what they have built by putting it in the hands of people they don't know. I was fortunate enough to earn the owner's trust, but I rarely saw him give that level of trust to anyone else.

Unfortunately, the higher prices are pretty unavoidable unless they have a primary source of income outside of retail sales. Businesses get discounts based on volume. Just think of the difference in volume a corporate entity with multiple stores across Canada will have vs a small store in a small town. Even the difference in volume between a store in Toronto vs a store in the middle of nowhere. In a lot cases, L&M sell their products barely above what is costs a small store to purchase the same product directly from the distributor. Small stores need to make their money from lessons, rentals, and other services if they want to keep their retail prices competitive. Or, they need to get online and hope for a big increase in sales volume, which is much harder to achieve than people think.

That said, some small store owners mark their products up to unreasonable heights so they can buy their bigger house, fancier car, and have a trust fund for their kids. I won't mention names, but I know of one store that marked almost all of their products up by at least 500%. They would sell a product for $40-$50 that could be found as low as $15-$20 at other retailers. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is morally wrong, but it is certainly not a smart business move these days because of how easy it is to compare prices thanks to the internet.

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bagpipe said:


> How annoying is it when you get kids coming in and asking to try the Gibson Les Paul Customs etc? Even though you know they probably have a grand total of $40 in their bank account?


Hahaha... It can be frustrating, but not as bad as you'd think. I learned pretty quickly not to judge a book by its cover. Some pretty scraggly looking people (teens included) can spend an awful lot of cash if you give them your time and the benefit of the doubt.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> I have dealt mainly with L&M and really don't have any complaints. They've been pretty good to me. At least the 2 stores closest to me. I guess the only complaint I could have is the complete lack of knowledge the sales staff usually have. But I learned to deal with that a long time a go. I simply do my own research and know what I want in advance. If I need to know anything further I know enough not to expect much if anything from the sales staff. So all I expect from sales staff is ring me out.
> As for the smaller mom and pop shops, at least in my hometown are even worse. they employee wives, sons or other family members that know little to nothing about music gear. And usually the prices are higher than the big box retailers like L&M. To be fair though I haven't dealt with the local mom and pop shops for about 20 years so they could have improved around my hometown, I don't know.



Local mom and pop stores are not all equal and that's no different in Brantford. The staff where I shop are knowledgable enough to answer my questions and as for pricing, building a relationship with a local shop means I get the same price others get at big stores, without the hassle of driving to another city.

There is another shop in town I avoid because I find them cold and snotty. I had a shitty experience there once and I won't buy from them unless I have no other option.

Customer service is a double edged sword. If it's good, it can help the store greatly, but it can also do a lot of damage if it sucs.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

laristotle said:


> I once walked into a L&M and asked if they had a spare
> 'amber top hat knob' (they didn't have any 2/pack on the
> hangers) in their parts bin in the back. The older gentleman
> came back with an 'amber speed knob'. I then pointed to a
> ...


Wow... I have no response to that.







That kind of thing just shouldn't happen. At the very least, they should see if they can get it for you rather than just offering bad alternatives.

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Milkman said:


> Local mom and pop stores are not all equal and that's no different in Brantford. The staff where I shop are knowledgable enough to answer my questions and as for pricing, building a relationship with a local shop means I get the same price others get at big stores, without the hassle of driving to another city.


Forgot to mention that. A lot of small business owners are willing to give you a break on the prices, but it all depends. As Milkman said, they are not all equal.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

I owned and operated two "mom + pop" retail consumer electronics stores. Knowing how retail works I always give the local mom + pop stores a chance to meet a price. They have higher overhead and less volume than the chains. If they can come reasonably close I'll give them my business as long as the service is there. No service or no attempt to make a deal, no business from me. As far as Canadian prices go that is the same in every industry. No one knows why. My guess is that it is a combination of a small market, expensive distribution (shipping), and a small amount of gouging by manufacturers and distributors. They will charge what the market will bare. I know for sure that there was no gouging on my part. Margins were about 20% gross over all with consumer electronics. The volume items like TVs were as low as 5-10% for low end models. For accessories and speakers it was as high as 200% to get an overall gross average of 20%. It's pretty hard to run a business on that low of a margin. If you want a deal with a mom + pop look for a high end product that has been in inventory for a while and offer cash or debit card just before the end of the month.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

bagpipe said:


> How annoying is it when you get kids coming in and asking to try the Gibson Les Paul Customs etc? Even though you know they probably have a grand total of $40 in their bank account?


As long as they have $40 a month in their account every month whats the problem?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Guess what? NOT a complaint. Just a question in curiosity.

How do stores get some of the exotic or limited edition models? Sometimes I'll walk into a store and see a guitar hanging on the wall that I *know* was manufactured in very limited quantity (well, either that or the manufacturer lied in the ads, figuring no one would ever find out). And the first thing I think is "Huh? Why here?".

Maybe it's prejudice on my part, but I naively assume that only the big shot stores would have access to those things, since the distributor partly views those items as a marketing tool. So, how does a smaller store land one of those big fish?


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> As long as they have $40 a month in their account every month whats the problem?


$40 a month was just an example. I meant kids who come in just to play high end guitars (scratching them up in the process) with no means or intent of ever buying them. Believe me, I did it plenty of times as a kid in music stores in Glasgow.


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## Xelebes (Mar 9, 2015)

mhammer said:


> Guess what? NOT a complaint. Just a question in curiosity.
> 
> How do stores get some of the exotic or limited edition models? Sometimes I'll walk into a store and see a guitar hanging on the wall that I *know* was manufactured in very limited quantity (well, either that or the manufacturer lied in the ads, figuring no one would ever find out). And the first thing I think is "Huh? Why here?".
> 
> Maybe it's prejudice on my part, but I naively assume that only the big shot stores would have access to those things, since the distributor partly views those items as a marketing tool. So, how does a smaller store land one of those big fish?


Many big stores only deal with manufacturers who produce in large quantities. The small stores can afford to devote some floorspace to one-offs and limited-runs - usually done to draw people to their stores. Also, smaller stores can specialise and devote themselves to specific manufacturers, giving them opportunity and access to the one-offs and limited editions, especially as a means of building credibility for the manufacturer and the store.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Makes sense at one level, but when you consider just how many such small stores exist, there aren't enough special one-offs to go around. So how does a small place arrange for an oddball piece from a major manufacturer?


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Here's one even though I kinda already know the answer...

Why do some Canadian retailers insist on listing prices in US $ online?

A better question...

How annoying is it that some Canadian retailers insist on listing prices in US $ online?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I don't have any questions (and did work at a music store in sales for about a year), but I'm curious to see what else is brought up in this thread.

I worked with a lot of very knowledgeable, helpful people. Not everyone was liked by everyone else (as expected) but we knew who to ask questions about which product, and took pride in helping anyone who came in - even if they didn't spend anything that day. We were not on commission.

Then the store owner pulled one of the biggest shady moves I've ever heard of when he closed. Somehow that seems fairly hush hush around town, despite the fact that he burned many bridges.

I feel fortunate that various stores have let me try out higher end equipment even when I let them know I couldn't afford it at the time, but did (and in some cases still do) want to make the purchase.

Retail in general: a few dealerships scoffed when my friend (now 26) and his wife were shopping for a used luxury SUV. He very quickly avoided those places, and found a place where he was treated with respect despite his age. As has been mentioned, don't always be quick to judge - you never know who has the money to spend.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Budda said:


> Retail in general: a few dealerships scoffed when my friend (now 26) and his wife were shopping for a used luxury SUV. He very quickly avoided those places, and found a place where he was treated with respect despite his age. As has been mentioned, don't always be quick to judge - you never know who has the money to spend.


This is why I shop at one local shop and avoid another.

I was shopping for a guitar quite a few years ago. I was younger and had long hair and probably some facial hair at the time.

I took off my belt and jacket and pulled a nice Strat off the wall (I had around $850 cash in my pocket).

While I was playing (unplugged) the guitar, and after only one or two minutes max, the owner of the store asked me if I was there to serenade them or if I actually intended to buy something.

I pulled out the stack of $20s, smiled and said, "I guess you'll never know pal".

Now, he'd probably shrug and say who gives a shit, but I bring a lot of business into his competitors and have done so year after year since then.

I'll wager that moment of snotty rudeness cost them several tens of thousands of dollars between referrals and what I buy.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Kerry Brown said:


> As far as Canadian prices go that is the same in every industry. No one knows why. My guess is that it is a combination of a small market, expensive distribution (shipping), and a small amount of gouging by manufacturers and distributors.


I think there are perfectly valid reasons why Canadian prices are usually a little higher... You just touched on a few of them. Products cost more, shipping costs more, and the market is often smaller and more spread out.



mhammer said:


> Guess what? NOT a complaint. Just a question in curiosity.


You know what they said about curiosity. 



> How do stores get some of the exotic or limited edition models? Sometimes I'll walk into a store and see a guitar hanging on the wall that I *know* was manufactured in very limited quantity (well, either that or the manufacturer lied in the ads, figuring no one would ever find out). And the first thing I think is "Huh? Why here?".


Great question! First, "limited quantity" doesn't always mean much. Second, Xelebes is right saying:


Xelebes said:


> Many big stores only deal with manufacturers who produce in large quantities. The small stores can afford to devote some floorspace to one-offs and limited-runs - usually done to draw people to their stores. Also, smaller stores can specialise and devote themselves to specific manufacturers, giving them opportunity and access to the one-offs and limited editions, especially as a means of building credibility for the manufacturer and the store.


Third:


> Maybe it's prejudice on my part, but I naively assume that only the big shot stores would have access to those things, since the distributor partly views those items as a marketing tool. So, how does a smaller store land one of those big fish?


Distributors do not view those items as a marketing tool. Manufacturers do. To a distributor, it makes no difference what store buys it, so visibility isn't a concern. First come, first serve (unless the manufacturer says otherwise.) And as Xelebes said, some smaller stores try to pick them up to bring more people into the store.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

We had the baritone taylor 8-string acoustic (no, not the low F# 8-string) hanging for a while before it eventually sold. It did bring in some traffic, but I think by the time it sold the store owner had reduced the priced dramatically.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

I'll never understand why I have been completely ignored at times when I have a big chunk of money to spend on new gear but no one will give me the time of day when I try and get some idle sales person's attention.

Don't they understand that that scruffy looking guy in the dirty jeans and T may have just got off work and have a $10,000 limit CC burning a hole in his pocket? That old native man aimlessly wandering around the high end guitars may have a wad of cash in his pocket, looking for a birthday present for his grandson? That tattooed greasy haired freak crawling his way around the back of the racks in the PA department may be the sound man with a prominent band looking for a complete new concert sound system?

And yet that well dressed gentleman in the expensive shoes who may just be a looky-loo who spent all his disposable income on a pair of expensive shoes and fancy clothes somehow attracts all the friendly, accommodating sales people.

It happens and I have to wonder how businesses like that survive.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

JBFairthorne said:


> Here's one even though I kinda already know the answer...
> Why do some Canadian retailers insist on listing prices in US $ online?


If they list their prices and charge in Canadian dollars, they limit their sales to only Canadian customers. However, if they list and charge in US dollars, it opens them up to a large international market. It's a question of volume. Cater to 30mil Canadians, or 1bil international customers. Not to mention, most Canadian online-only retailers use US suppliers because most Canadian distributors won't sell to anyone who doesn't have a traditional brick & mortar storefront. In that case, if you just run your entire business using USD, it makes things a little easier.


> A better question...
> How annoying is it that some Canadian retailers insist on listing prices in US $ online?


As a customer, I don't find it annoying as long as it is clearly marked. Probably because I understand the reasons for it. For every Canadian customer they lose, they are gaining countless more internationally. It drives me crazy if it is not clearly indicated. As in, I should know on the first page without having to search for info on how they charge.



Budda said:


> I don't have any questions (and did work at a music store in sales for about a year), but I'm curious to see what else is brought up in this thread.
> 
> I worked with a lot of very knowledgeable, helpful people. Not everyone was liked by everyone else (as expected) but we knew who to ask questions about which product, and took pride in helping anyone who came in - even if they didn't spend anything that day. We were not on commission.


Sounds like a great crew! I wish all places were like that.



> Then the store owner pulled one of the biggest shady moves I've ever heard of when he closed. Somehow that seems fairly hush hush around town, despite the fact that he burned many bridges.


That sucks...



> I feel fortunate that various stores have let me try out higher end equipment even when I let them know I couldn't afford it at the time, but did (and in some cases still do) want to make the purchase.
> 
> Retail in general: a few dealerships scoffed when my friend (now 26) and his wife were shopping for a used luxury SUV. He very quickly avoided those places, and found a place where he was treated with respect despite his age. As has been mentioned, don't always be quick to judge - you never know who has the money to spend.


That is exactly why you should always give the customer the benefit of the doubt. Even if that broke 14 year old kid just wants to play a fancy guitar for 15 minutes. He may remember how well he was treated at your store and one day buy that guitar, along with a bunch of other gear. Even if he doesn't, he is more likely to have good things to say to others about your store, which may again turn into some decent sales.

Building trust is always more important than making sales. When you develop a rapport and people trust you, the sales will come.



Budda said:


> We had the baritone taylor 8-string acoustic (no, not the low F# 8-string) hanging for a while before it eventually sold. It did bring in some traffic, but I think by the time it sold the store owner had reduced the priced dramatically.


He may have reduced the price dramatically, but he probably still sold it for some profit (or at least at cost). Meaning, he got some sales out of it. It doesn't always work, but it sounds like it did in that case.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

As a follow-up to my previous post about being ignored in a store when I am ready to pull the trigger, I love to retaliate by finding the lowliest sales neophyte I can find, point to the merchandise I want and give him or her the sale. Sometimes the looks on the faces of the more seasoned sales people is just priceless, especially if the sale amounts to a really big one for any of them.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Favourite music store clip. The impatient balding guy looking at his watch is MIke Judge, the guy behind Beavis & Butthead and King of the Hill.

[video=youtube;XNG8wW6Ffw4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNG8wW6Ffw4[/video]


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I'm wondering if short scale basses are really so uncommon that most stores around me not only don't stock them, but they won't order them.
-Even though they sell short scale basses.
I have a set for the next change, but from there I may I have to buy them online, and I would prefer to buy my guitar stuff in a brick & mortar store.


As to salesman judging you by your appearance--I would say I haven't ever really had that problem.
When I was in high school--long hair, unshaven and wearing a ragged jean jacket, etc--they would help me out & even give me expensive guitars to try.

There were three stores that were like that for me--and I have bought guitars (& a bass at all of them), as well as amps, pedals, and all sorts of accessories--and brought others there to buy stuff from them.

One of them changed their retail strategy though, and it didn't work, they focused on band instruments and cut out almost all their guitar & drum products, and lost a ton of customers.
They sort of came back as a sort of merger/takeover of a different store that focuses on band instruments--but has a guitar section & a drum section.

The other two were taken over by L&M at different times.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I have had nothing but good experiences from Canadian Music Stores but when it comes to big ticket items, I usually go to the USA. Living close helps a lot.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

zontar said:


> I'm wondering if short scale basses are really so uncommon that most stores around me not only don't stock them, but they won't order them.
> -Even though they sell short scale basses.
> I have a set for the next change, but from there I may I have to buy them online, and I would prefer to buy my guitar stuff in a brick & mortar store.


I assume you're talking about short scale bass strings. In which case, depending on the area you live in, that is one of those items that stores just don't bother stocking. Depending on the distributor, the store might not be able to special order just one set for you. If that is the case, they might consider special ordering them as a loss.

It reminds me of the pack of 10 left handed thumb picks I once convinced a store owner to buy. I worked there for 4 more years after that and we didn't sell a single one in that entire time. As far as I know, they are still there 13 years later.



> As to salesman judging you by your appearance--I would say I haven't ever really had that problem.
> When I was in high school--long hair, unshaven and wearing a ragged jean jacket, etc--they would help me out & even give me expensive guitars to try.
> 
> There were three stores that were like that for me--and I have bought guitars (& a bass at all of them), as well as amps, pedals, and all sorts of accessories--and brought others there to buy stuff from them.


Another example of why sales staff should never ignore people, no matter how ragged they look. I had an argument with a store owner about that today so it is funny that it keeps coming up in this thread. Maybe I should send him over here to read through the thread.



> One of them changed their retail strategy though, and it didn't work, they focused on band instruments and cut out almost all their guitar & drum products, and lost a ton of customers.
> They sort of came back as a sort of merger/takeover of a different store that focuses on band instruments--but has a guitar section & a drum section.
> 
> The other two were taken over by L&M at different times.


This is a common theme. Small stores just can't compete anymore. If they aren't closing completely, they are turning into a Long & McQuade. There are 3 stores here in Ottawa that have closed their doors in this past year. :frown-new:


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

'Ask a music store lifer ANYTHING'? ok, is it true roadies get more girls than bass players and drummers?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

More? Maybe. Better? 

Sorry, spin again.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2015)

Backstage at the local Armory, MARY, in her little white dress,
is wiping the remnants of her performance off the side of her mouth
as LARRY (the guy from the garage who quit the band in order to make
an honest living) zips up the front of his stinking boiler suit and sings
to the same teen-age girls who were stomping and clapping a little while ago,
as they kneel with their little pink mouths open near the crew bus,
hoping to save the price of admission by performing acts of Hooverism on
the jolly lads who set up the P. A. System.

[video=youtube;6VOa9IZ86Ak]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VOa9IZ86Ak[/video]


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

laristotle said:


> Backstage at the local Armory, MARY, in her little white dress,
> is wiping the remnants of her performance off the side of her mouth
> as LARRY (the guy from the garage who quit the band in order to make
> an honest living) zips up the front of his stinking boiler suit and sings
> ...


Check out the harp solo at the end of that tune.

It looks just like a Telefunken U47.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2015)

with leather?


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Electraglide said:


> 'Ask a music store lifer ANYTHING'? ok, is it true roadies get more girls than bass players and drummers?


lol Music store related.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Great thread! 

Thinking of that scene in Wayne's World, here's my question: What are the most commonly played songs when people try out instruments? Which ones make the staff cringe?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I find it funny that people will cite Stairway to Heaven as a song that they're sick to death of hearing in a music store.

Perhaps if one or two people would learn the song correctly and play it well....

For me it would be something by Metallica probably.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

isoneedacoffee said:


> Great thread!
> 
> Thinking of that scene in Wayne's World, here's my question: What are the most commonly played songs when people try out instruments? Which ones make the staff cringe?


I'm sure it is different for everyone, but nothing really stood out to me. Modern kids play modern songs, older guys play classic rock, folk guys play folk, etc. I learned to tune it all out pretty quick.

What I find dreadfully annoying is when people sit down and treat the store like their own private performance hall. Two types that stand out to me are the wannabe virtuosos who crank up the amp and badly shred incoherent nonsense for what seems like forever, and the one-man-band who sits down with an acoustic and strums and sings their favorite tunes as loud as they can while stomping their feet. Uggghhhhh.....


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

jbealsmusic said:


> There are 3 stores here in Ottawa that have closed their doors in this past year. :frown-new:


One (Simply Guitars) was forced to close because of a lousy landlord that made life difficult, and another (International Musicland) is due to close unless they can find another location. A third (Domenic's) had been declining over the years anyway; the final coffin nail being L&M moving in a short drive away. Or are you referring to others?


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Why canadian musc stores are so reluctant to have an online store?
Add to that, presence on the internet/social network in general.

I'm still discovering new stores by accidents and can never find some infos online later...


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

I suppose the answer to this one is obvious but I'll put it out there anyway.

Why don't music stores (or any other stores for that matter) carry a selection of small parts like screws and other useful little bits and pieces. I know the answer is that keeping slow moving inventory doesn't make a profit but the concept of loss leaders seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur.

In the past, how many times did I go into a store that I knew carried small items for a certain, say, washer and walk out with a bunch of stuff I never would have bought otherwise? Lots of times in the past but not any more. I thought the idea was to get people into the store to at least get them dreaming about that most excellent guitar on the wall, even if they only need a jack plate today.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

isoneedacoffee said:


> Great thread!
> 
> Thinking of that scene in Wayne's World, here's my question: What are the most commonly played songs when people try out instruments? Which ones make the staff cringe?


For me its the shitty covers the boss would play to demo any piece of gear. "Rock me mama like a wagon wheel" makes me see red.

I think instruments out of tune can be more glaring than a specific song, but ymmv (to other retail people).

When people come in and lay down sweet jazz or blues licks, it is awesome!


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

mhammer said:


> One (Simply Guitars) was forced to close because of a lousy landlord that made life difficult, and another (International Musicland) is due to close unless they can find another location. A third (Domenic's) had been declining over the years anyway; the final coffin nail being L&M moving in a short drive away. Or are you referring to others?


A bad landlord is a good reason to move, but not a good reason to close your doors for good. It seems to me there must have been more to it. International Musicland is closing down. I ran into Amadeo last week and he told me they were calling it quits for good. They announced it this morning on their Facebook account so I can finally say so out loud. Domenic's has been on the decline for years, so that was no surprise. Still, another one bites the dust.

In other news, St. John's Music just cut their square footage in half. That doesn't mean they're closing their doors aren't necessarily closing their doors, but it's obviouthey need to do some restructuring. Granata Music cut their square footage down to about 1/3rd of what it used to be. Though they are making some big changes to try and stay in the market. Going online, price matching, return policies, etc. Aside from the name, it is pretty much a whole different store.

That said, there are some stores that are still kicking and I just don't understand how they are still in business. With notoriously terrible customer service, cheap yet heavily overpriced products, and an abysmal reputation; How do they do it?



Ti-Ron said:


> Why canadian musc stores are so reluctant to have an online store?
> Add to that, presence on the internet/social network in general.


I believe, again, it has to do with the expense. It costs thousands of dollars and hundreds of man hours to set up and manage an online store. Most owners probably just don't want to go through the effort and expense to do it. You'd be surprised at how expensive it gets, despite it seeming very cheap and easy to launch. Plus, there is this weird in between phase where it adds enough business that you need more staff to manage it properly, but it hasn't increased sales enough to offset the cost of hiring said staff.

As far as the social media thing goes, it takes a certain kind of personality to do that sort of thing well. Speaking in my case, I suck at social media. I never really used it personally, so I don't really get it. I try though... I have facebook and twitter for the business, but I rarely post anything. I just don't have the personality for it. Sometimes I stare at the screen for what seems like 20 minutes trying to think of something to post and I eventually give up because nothing comes to mind. I read through other business's posts to try and get some ideas but it all seems so ... I don't know if there's a word for it. It never interested me, so I have no idea how to do it, and every time I post something I feel like it was stupid. So, I stick to product/business announcements and that's it. If I wanted to do it well, I would have to hire someone to manage it. I imagine that is the same for a lot of businesses.



bluzfish said:


> I suppose the answer to this one is obvious but I'll put it out there anyway.
> 
> Why don't music stores (or any other stores for that matter) carry a selection of small parts like screws and other useful little bits and pieces. I know the answer is that keeping slow moving inventory doesn't make a profit but the concept of loss leaders seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur.
> 
> In the past, how many times did I go into a store that I knew carried small items for a certain, say, washer and walk out with a bunch of stuff I never would have bought otherwise? Lots of times in the past but not any more. I thought the idea was to get people into the store to at least get them dreaming about that most excellent guitar on the wall, even if they only need a jack plate today.


Good point and good question... The main reason, as you said, is the expense. First, a "selection" of small parts that is large enough to draw customers looking for small parts racks up to the tune of at least $5K+ in cost. Small parts add up quickly. I have no doubt that it draws some customers in, but does it draw enough customers in to offset that investment. Remember, if it cost them $5K to stock those parts, they'll need to make that much back in profit from other sales. Considering the margins on most music gear is not that great (unless you deal in decent volume), it is a gamble.

Second, the problem with slow moving inventory is not that it doesn't sell, but that it is continually costing you money. Every time you move products around, change displays, re-organize a drawer, count the inventory, etc; you are paying staff to do it and you're paying rent on the space it takes up. Space that could have products that are actually selling. There are all kinds of reasons why dead stock is something you always want to avoid.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Is there really any warranty on Fender amps sold in Canada?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

jbealsmusic said:


> A bad landlord is a good reason to move, but not a good reason to close your doors for good. It seems to me there must have been more to it.


Much of their business was actually in music lessons. I think the complications of finding a new location just made it more trouble than it was worth. I chatted with the owner and he was excited about a new job he was shifting to. based on the remuneration rate of that job, I think he was getting by all these years, but not getting rich.



> In other news, St. John's Music just cut their square footage in half. That doesn't mean they're closing their doors aren't necessarily closing their doors, but it's obviouthey need to do some restructuring. Granata Music cut their square footage down to about 1/3rd of what it used to be. Though they are making some big changes to try and stay in the market. Going online, price matching, return policies, etc. Aside from the name, it is pretty much a whole different store.


I always thought St. JOhn's was too big for their stock. They used to be in a much smaller location on Carling, which struck me as a cozy, appropriately-sized location. Granata has traditionally been more sheet music than instruments, and I can't see the sheet-music industry remaining in paper form for much longer., so they would need to change their business model.


> That said, there are some stores that are still kicking and I just don't understand how they are still in business. With notoriously terrible customer service, cheap yet heavily overpriced products, and an abysmal reputation; How do they do it?


Ohhhh....THAT place. I suspect they stay in business because their walk-in traffic has a large immigrant component that isn't all that hip to brands, and doesn't stay on top of pricing.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

More of a comment.

There's a mom & pop store in town that deals with G&L.
They've always had something blinged out in a glass showcase in the store.

I haven't been in there in a while, but there was an ASAT with gold hardware that sat in that case forever.
It's some special edition too, probably with a price tag to match.

On a side note, the owners son, who will probably run the business into the ground, eventually,
seems to have no clue as to what they're selling. An employee I may let that go on, but the owner?
Two times I caught the guy in a gaff, once trying out some Orange amps,
the second time was when I asked if they've ever got in a Fallout, "What's a Fallout?" He asked.


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## GWN! (Nov 2, 2014)

Lincoln said:


> Is there really any warranty on Fender amps sold in Canada?


Warranty documentation that came with my two Fender amps says that the warranty applies to USA and Canada. Fairly limited for 5 years covering mostly the electronic portion of the amp. One year for the rest of the amp. 90 days on tubes, lamps and cables. But I have never needed to use it so I don't know how it would go.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

jbealsmusic said:


> Still, some stores do the opposite. Your job is at risk if you don't meet certain quotas. Not fun to work in that kind of environment. Hard on the sales staff and tough on customers because salespeople get a little more pushy and might sell you a bunch of stuff you don't want or need in order to get their numbers up.


been there and done that! Commission sucks!


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Not a question...rather a comment. 

It is so nice to go to a music store that has a decent supply of guitar (and other) parts available (e.g., caps, pots, wire, jacks, knobs, machine heads, etc.). I know this list is endless and I understand that choosing which parts to carry could be a nightmare for the store. However, some stores make an effort and it is much appreciated. 

Thank goodness there are *Canadian* suppliers like (cough) Next Gen Guitars (cough) ...plug... (cough) that are trying to fill this need.

Cheers

Dave


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

GWN! said:


> Warranty documentation that came with my two Fender amps says that the warranty applies to USA and Canada. Fairly limited for 5 years covering mostly the electronic portion of the amp. One year for the rest of the amp. 90 days on tubes, lamps and cables. But I have never needed to use it so I don't know how it would go.


It's been probably 10 years since I purchased a new Fender amp. At the time, when I tried to register the warranty it wouldn't accept a Canadian address. Things must have changed. I was under the impression that there was no warranty on Fender if you didn't have a US address. The store I bought it from (notorious for poor customer service), wasn't any help either. They couldn't answer my question and really weren't interested (since the sale was already made). Luckily it's been a good amp and I haven't needed any service on it.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I would like this answered, please. Will L & M ever get their online site up to modern standards? If so, what year do you anticipate this?


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> I would like this answered, please. Will L & M ever get their online site up to modern standards? If so, what year do you anticipate this?



A search engine that actually works (you know, like every other web site) and a way to jump to pages (you know, like evry other web site) would be nice. I know web designs are very expensive but the company they use can't be that cheap.


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## brimc76 (Feb 14, 2008)

Lincoln said:


> Is there really any warranty on Fender amps sold in Canada?


I had one replaced under warranty a few years ago after it was determined the tech would have to spend too much time chasing down the trouble to make it worth fixing. I just had to have the proper documentation which I did thanks to davetcan.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Lincoln said:


> Is there really any warranty on Fender amps sold in Canada?


Looks like a few people have already answered that one.



mhammer said:


> I chatted with the owner and he was excited about a new job he was shifting to. based on the remuneration rate of that job, I think he was getting by all these years, but not getting rich.


I think that's the case for a lot of smaller places like theirs. If I ever get to the point where I'm making the equivalent of a full-time minimum wage salary off of NGG, I'll consider it a success. Anything beyond that is gravy.



> Ohhhh....THAT place. I suspect they stay in business because their walk-in traffic has a large immigrant component that isn't all that hip to brands, and doesn't stay on top of pricing.


That or money laundering. Actually, I know a bit of the secret. I haven't been in there in 10 years so I don't know if this is still how they do it, but they used to deal directly with the foreign manufacturing plants to get their gear, as opposed to going through a North American distributor. Sneaky sneaky!



sulphur said:


> On a side note, the owners son, who will probably run the business into the ground, eventually,
> seems to have no clue as to what they're selling. An employee I may let that go on, but the owner?
> Two times I caught the guy in a gaff, once trying out some Orange amps,
> the second time was when I asked if they've ever got in a Fallout, "What's a Fallout?" He asked.


That's a shame. Hopefully he'll straighten up one day and either fill in his knowledge gaps or hire the right people.



greco said:


> It is so nice to go to a music store that has a decent supply of guitar (and other) parts available (e.g., caps, pots, wire, jacks, knobs, machine heads, etc.). I know this list is endless and I understand that choosing which parts to carry could be a nightmare for the store. However, some stores make an effort and it is much appreciated.


I felt the same way. It was always a treat when I could walk into a store and they actually had some of the parts I was looking for.



> Thank goodness there are *Canadian* suppliers like (cough) Next Gen Guitars (cough) ...plug... (cough) that are trying to fill this need.
> 
> Cheers
> Dave


:sSig_busted:


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Steadfastly said:


> I would like this answered, please. Will L & M ever get their online site up to modern standards? If so, what year do you anticipate this?


lol I'm sure they invested unseemly amounts of money to have a system that not only tracks and syncs all of their inventory between their warehouse and every store in Canada, but does all the fancy extra stuff necessary to run a massive chain of stores. Such a solution is not cheap and to my knowledge the one they use was built for them from the ground up as opposed to getting a turnkey system like FastLane.

I'm frankly amazed they haven't made any improvements to their website, essentially since it launched 10ish years ago. It still isn't mobile responsive. They're not fooling around over there though, so I'm sure they have someone looking into it. However, a place like L&M doesn't just change things on a whim. A big change like that would have to go through the ringer before it launched.



bluzfish said:


> A search engine that actually works (you know, like every other web site) and a way to jump to pages (you know, like evry other web site) would be nice. I know web designs are very expensive but the company they use can't be that cheap.


I'm not the only one. Whew!

Can't complain too much though... Free shipping on all orders!?? How in the world can they afford that? The magic of corporate discounts through high volume sales.


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## GWN! (Nov 2, 2014)

Lincoln said:


> It's been probably 10 years since I purchased a new Fender amp. At the time, when I tried to register the warranty it wouldn't accept a Canadian address. Things must have changed. I was under the impression that there was no warranty on Fender if you didn't have a US address. The store I bought it from (notorious for poor customer service), wasn't any help either. They couldn't answer my question and really weren't interested (since the sale was already made). Luckily it's been a good amp and I haven't needed any service on it.


You do not need to register your amp with Fender for warranty. You need to keep proof of purchase showing date and store were bought. Here is the blurb from Fender:


[FONT=roboto_slabbold]Fender does not issue warranty cards nor register consumer warranties with the sale of any FMIC brand product. An "Owner's Registration" card does accompany many FMIC products and an on-line version of this [/FONT]Owner's Registration[FONT=roboto_slabbold] card has also been created on the Fender website. The registration, however, is simply a demographic marketing research survey; it is not a "warranty" registration.[/FONT]

[FONT=roboto_slabbold]Your original sales receipt is your verification of proof and date of purchase for validation of warranty claims. Please retain your sales receipt for the term length of the warranty of the product. In the event that you have a claim for warranty service, this receipt must be presented at the time of service for appropriate consideration.[/FONT]


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

jbealsmusic said:


> I assume you're talking about short scale bass strings. In which case, depending on the area you live in, that is one of those items that stores just don't bother stocking. Depending on the distributor, the store might not be able to special order just one set for you. If that is the case, they might consider special ordering them as a loss.


Oops--yeah I meant the strings--I was trying to say, they sell the short scale basses, but not the strings.
Maybe some will again as I am seeing more short scale basses than ever when I go into stores.
It used to be easy to find them around here.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

zontar said:


> Oops--yeah I meant the strings--I was trying to say, they sell the short scale basses, but not the strings.
> Maybe some will again as I am seeing more short scale basses than ever when I go into stores.
> It used to be easy to find them around here.


So, they sell short scale basses but don't offer short scale strings? I missed that in your original post. Seems like they should keep at least one brand/gauge on hand.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

jbealsmusic said:


> lol I'm sure they invested unseemly amounts of money to have a system that not only tracks and syncs all of their inventory between their warehouse and every store in Canada, but does all the fancy extra stuff necessary to run a massive chain of stores. Such a solution is not cheap and to my knowledge the one they use was built for them from the ground up as opposed to getting a turnkey system like FastLane.
> 
> I'm frankly amazed they haven't made any improvements to their website, essentially since it launched 10ish years ago. It still isn't mobile responsive. They're not fooling around over there though, so I'm sure they have someone looking into it. However, a place like L&M doesn't just change things on a whim. A big change like that would have to go through the ringer before it launched.


I would think the money they have lost because of their antiquated website would pay for any update.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I think a website is a good tool, but I would much rather the investments be made in an actual store where you can try the gear.

If I have ANY problem it's with the websites that have pages and pages and pages devoted to outdated gear that they don't have and they can't get because it's been discontinued for 3 fn years. It's a pita to find something cool, maybe an odd color, only to find out that they haven't even had access to one since 2012.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Steadfastly said:


> I would think the money they have lost because of their antiquated website would pay for any update.


Haha True!



JBFairthorne said:


> I think a website is a good tool, but I would much rather the investments be made in an actual store where you can try the gear.
> 
> If I have ANY problem it's with the websites that have pages and pages and pages devoted to outdated gear that they don't have and they can't get because it's been discontinued for 3 fn years. It's a pita to find something cool, maybe an odd color, only to find out that they haven't even had access to one since 2012.


Yeah. It's annoying. Many of the better designs do not list unavailable products in search results, but they keep the information in their database for reference.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Yes, L&Ms website is a bit of a mess. Crappy search engine, at the very least.

I have a question.
Does L&M have "first dibs" on gear, or guitars in particular.

I was trying out a Gibson 339 at a local store.
Really, out of curiousity, I asked if they've got in, or are getting in that version guitar from Epiphone.
I got a song and dance about how if they could, it would take such a long time,
that L&M get all the choice and they're left with, well, leftovers.

Is there any truth to that, or was he just trying to push the more expensive guitar?
I'm not sure if they're on commission there or not, I didn't think that they were.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

L&M only have in stock a small fraction of what they have on their web site anyway. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that almost everything I'm interested in is either out of stock or a one-off somewhere in their system.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

bluzfish said:


> L&M only have in stock a small fraction of what they have on their web site anyway. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say that almost everything I'm interested in is either out of stock or a one-off somewhere in their system.


At least they do show if it's available at a store somewhere.
My issue is the actual search.

I went to look at Fender amps the other day, entered "Fender amp" and it showed when you hovered, 
"no results found", but then click on it anyway and the selections come up.
It happened looking a Dr Z amps too.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

sulphur said:


> I have a question.
> Does L&M have "first dibs" on gear, or guitars in particular.
> 
> I was trying out a Gibson 339 at a local store.
> ...


In short, no, L&M does not get "first dibs" on gear. Although, in practice, I can see why someone might think that.

L&M owns Yorkville, who are the Canadian distributor for Line 6, Gibson/Epiphone, and a number of other major brands. This gives them a massive competitive advantage in the Canadian market because the gear costs them that much less than it would for any other dealer. Considering that fact, and the fact that L&M has to stock their warehouse along with their 63+ retail locations across Canada, they are able to buy at lower prices, in higher quantities, and with much more frequency than any other dealer in Canada. So, yes, they snatch up the stock from their distributors, but not necessarily because they get "first dibs". Distributors usually operate on a "first come, first served" basis. I just so happens that L&M needs more products more frequently than every other dealer in Canada, so they are usually first in line to order.

I can think of a couple of reasons why a store salesman would give you that song and dance.
1) They were telling the truth about it taking a long time, but not may not have given you the real reason as to why. I don't recall if Yorkville has minimum order requirements, but some distributors do. Even if they don't, it is always better to order more rather than less. Special ordering one guitar means they are eating the shipping cost for that one guitar, and basically losing their profit margin (depending on how competitively they price their products). If they can wait long enough to gather more special orders and/or for other stock to get low, it gives them reason to place a larger order, which improves their discount and reduces the shipping cost so they maintain a better profit margin on that item. For small stores who already don't order often, that could mean waiting months. In my experience, that is the most common reason why there are delays on special orders. Less common but still valid reasons are that the distributor is out of stock, they screwed up and shipped the wrong item (or forgot to ship the item altogether), or that the item has been discontinued.

2) I specifically said "real reason" above as opposed to saying that they lied because, depending on who you were talking to, they may not know the real reason. They may just be making up an excuse on the spot or they could just be reiterating something they've overheard other staff say.

3) It's possible they are trying to make L&M look like the big bad corporate wolf who is putting all the little guys out of business. I've heard some salesmen/owners call L&M the "Walmart" of music stores. While there may be a little truth to that, it is hardly an accurate analogy. And, in my opinion, not an overly appropriate response to their success.

4) Worst case scenario, they were lying because they wanted to make the sale. This is the dirty underbelly of sales that I don't understand and hate with a passion. I've worked for and with people who lie through their teeth to customers on a daily basis. I've even been asked to lie directly to customers for one reason or another. Either to try and close a sale or for some other reason. There is nothing that pisses me off more than seeing, overhearing, or at worst, being told to lie to a customer. Even if it is a "little" lie to cover up the real reason for a delayed special order. I can't tell you the number of times people had special ordered things and been told it would take 1-2 weeks when it would actually take 4-6 weeks. Then, when a customer would call to follow up 3 weeks later, I'd get told to lie and make up a reason for why it took so long. I hated it!

In my opinion, the truth is always the way to go. If you know it'll take 4-6 weeks because you won't do an order with that company for another 4-6 weeks, then just tell the customer it will be 4-6 weeks. Maybe you'll lose that sale. In the long-run it's better to lose that one sale and be known for being honest than it is to lie and tell them it'll take 1-2 weeks. The latter may get you the quick sale, but it will leave you with a disgruntled customer and a bad reputation.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. A person's trust is far more valuable in the long-run than their money. Of course, I haven't been in the business or owned a store for 30+ years like the guys who push that type of behavior, so who am I to talk. Maybe they know something that I don't. I just know how I would respond if I were the customer, and it wouldn't be good for business.



sulphur said:


> At least they do show if it's available at a store somewhere.
> My issue is the actual search.
> 
> I went to look at Fender amps the other day, entered "Fender amp" and it showed when you hovered,
> ...


I can tell you why that happens. Their search engine operates on two levels. The first level is the pop-up/dropdown results. Here, it looks for a product with an exact title match to your search (character for character, so spelling counts). If there is an exact match, it will display the result in the little pop-up/dropdown and you can click on it to go directly to the product. If nothing is an exact match, it will display "no results found" in the pop-up/dropdown result.

The second level occurs when you actually click the search button (or press enter). Then it will search for "like" matches and display those results (I think it searches products, product details, and categories in that case).

It is actually a decent system from a technical standpoint. When you get used to it, it is nice to go directly to the products you want rather than searching through the categories or the full search results. But it is hardly intuitive, as evidenced by the comments in this thread. It took me a while to figure it out as well.

On an unfortunate note, I think our search bar operates the same way.:sSc_eeksign:


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Great response, I appreciate the candor!


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## Steve_F (Feb 15, 2008)

How much of a discount do you REALLY get on guitars?

What margins do you generally make on re-selling used gear?


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Do the manufacturers give the stores rebates or any incentives to lower prices and move old stock when it's time for the new stock to come in?


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Steve_F said:


> How much of a discount do you REALLY get on guitars?


Depends who you're working for. 



> What margins do you generally make on re-selling used gear?


I imagine it depends on the store as well as the quality and desirability of the gear. These kind of questions are tough because every store owner will do it differently. I haven't dealt much in used sales, so hopefully someone else will chime in. I imagine the margins aren't much different than on new gear.



Lincoln said:


> Do the manufacturers give the stores rebates or any incentives to lower prices and move old stock when it's time for the new stock to come in?


If they do, I've never seen it. Manufacturers rarely, if ever, communicate directly with retailers. It is usually all distributors to retailers (unless the manufacturer is their own distributor).

Every distributor is different, so it's tough to give a good answer. Some distributors are notoriously terrible at communicating anything other than notices that say, "Pay Your Invoice". They'll discontinue products, stop carrying an entire brand, change prices/discounts, and make any number of other big changes without telling you until the next time you have them on the phone and they say, "Oh yeah, we stopped carrying those about a month ago." Of course, you find this out AFTER you've already had a customer pay for a special order up front for something. That'll be a fun conversation.

Other distributors are great and you find out all the major changes well in advance through e-mail blasts and other communications. Distributors have the odd sale, just like dealers. Whether or not the dealers pass those savings on to the customer is another question.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Good responses! I'm curious as to what you'll learn as you grow your company and become more established in the industry. Mostly because I have no clue what exactly it is like haha.

I have a close friend who always says "you should just start your own music store!" when I post a pic of a new guitar - I always tell him it's not worth the hassle.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

JBFairthorne said:


> I think a website is a good tool, but I would much rather the investments be made in an actual store where you can try the gear.
> 
> If I have ANY problem it's with the websites that have pages and pages and pages devoted to outdated gear that they don't have and they can't get because it's been discontinued for 3 fn years. It's a pita to find something cool, maybe an odd color, only to find out that they haven't even had access to one since 2012.


The good music store sites have this kind of information on their website and leave it up for at least a few months for information purposes. They remove the price and state that the product is no longer available. IMO, that is a very good idea.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Budda said:


> Good responses! I'm curious as to what you'll learn as you grow your company and become more established in the industry. Mostly because I have no clue what exactly it is like haha.


Thanks! Hopefully a lot more because I find a new reason to feel kind of dumb at least once a week. lol

There are things I'm good at and things that I suck at. I do my best to improve the latter, but it's obvious that I'll need help to really take it up a notch.



> I have a close friend who always says "you should just start your own music store!" when I post a pic of a new guitar - I always tell him it's not worth the hassle.


It is certainly a massive commitment. But, I'm sure the same is true about most new businesses.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

sulphur said:


> At least they do show if it's available at a store somewhere.
> My issue is the actual search.
> 
> I went to look at Fender amps the other day, entered "Fender amp" and it showed when you hovered,
> ...


I have experienced the same thing enough times that I rarely use the site anymore. I tried it again a couple of weeks ago and experienced the same thing as the time I tried it about two months before. I just use MF, Sweetwater or Sam Ash when I want to find something.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

bluzfish said:


> I suppose the answer to this one is obvious but I'll put it out there anyway.
> 
> Why don't music stores (or any other stores for that matter) carry a selection of small parts like screws and other useful little bits and pieces. I know the answer is that keeping slow moving inventory doesn't make a profit but the concept of loss leaders seems to have gone the way of the dinosaur.
> 
> In the past, how many times did I go into a store that I knew carried small items for a certain, say, washer and walk out with a bunch of stuff I never would have bought otherwise? Lots of times in the past but not any more. I thought the idea was to get people into the store to at least get them dreaming about that most excellent guitar on the wall, even if they only need a jack plate today.


The store in town has a pretty fair supply of small parts, if you ask, and the tech has been known to donate to the cause.....or at least my cause. When I bought the Cort that had just been taken in on trade, he went over it with me before I bought it. When I took the Silvertone in he searched through his boxes and found the correct 6-in-line tuners, for the cause. So far.....cross fingers and knock on wood....they've had what I've looked for. I actually went in for a jack plate once and left with the plate, screws, strings and a brand new Peavey JF1 guitar.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

jbealsmusic said:


> So, they sell short scale basses but don't offer short scale strings? I missed that in your original post. Seems like they should keep at least one brand/gauge on hand.


That's what I thought, but it doesn't seem to be the case--I'm not too picky on which brand I use--although most of the time it's been D'Addario as that's what I could find.

I did really like their Pro Steel on my short scale, but I've never seen them in a store since.
But if any store just had short scale bass strings that weren't generic or ridiculously priced--I'd shop there & would most likely spend money on other stuff as well.

But I'm set for a while.
I mostly play my long scale fretless , but this sort of thing is why I once decided against buying a short scale fretless (Although earlier I saw one that was sold before I was going to buy it)


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Going back to the "why don't stores carry small parts" question. I thought of another reason that comes from my more recent experiences.

Since launch, I've had a few DIY amp & pedal folks tell me I should carry parts for building and modding amps and pedals. That is a great idea, however, I wouldn't know where to start. Aside from wiring guitars and cabs, I don't really do anything else in the way of electronics. I would invest in parts for building amps & pedals if I had any clue what parts might actually sell.

That could be another reason why certain stores don't carry much in the way of parts. Maybe the person in charge of ordering inventory isn't a tech and doesn't know what parts would be worth getting.

Just a random thought...


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

I think for a music store, all they would have to do is look at the merchandise they carry and ask themselves"what parts on this stuff might wear out, get removed and lost or be replaced with another option?". I wouldn't really expect a store to carry parts for merchandise they don't carry unless they are really into being a parts store.

For example, I went into L&M for an Epi acoustic bridge. I researched the graphtech parts numbers and none of the bridges on the wall were for any brands or models they carry. I had to make a special order. (BTW, it wasn't that they were just out of stock).


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

jbealsmusic said:


> Going back to the "why don't stores carry small parts" question. I thought of another reason that comes from my more recent experiences.
> 
> Since launch, I've had a few DIY amp & pedal folks tell me I should carry parts for building and modding amps and pedals. That is a great idea, however, I wouldn't know where to start. Aside from wiring guitars and cabs, I don't really do anything else in the way of electronics. I would invest in parts for building amps & pedals if I had any clue what parts might actually sell.
> 
> ...


I think you hit the truth on that one. Like one of the guys (Electraglide?) said a while back, if you need small guitar parts go to a guitar tech. He more than likely will have what you need. Any music store that doesn't do amp repair wouldn't have small parts for amps. Any music store that doesn't do guitar repairs/mods won't have a need for misc. small guitar parts or even know what to stock. 
Nuts? pickguard screws? Pickup screws and springs? Over-sized strap pin screws? Strap lock sets/kits? Pots? It's hard to know what to keep unless you are in that business.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Steve_F said:


> How much of a discount do you REALLY get on guitars?
> 
> What margins do you generally make on re-selling used gear?


On an average, businesses need to make around 40% margin (not markup) to be healthy. If the overhead can be kept low, then the margin could be a bit lower.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Back in the 70s, between gigs I worked for The Guitar Cellar in Vancouver, a division of Tom Lee Music. Our standard markup was 70%, with a bottom line of 40% and 30% for 'get it the hell out of inventory'.

Interestingly, at the time, Tom Lee Music was the largest music store chain in Asia, making the largest US retailers look like mom & pop shops. Because in Canada L&M had the exclusive on Gibson guitars, John Lee set out the nefarious plan to have some of the Gibson stock destined for the Asian market diverted back to Canada.

When a Gibson LP Custom retailed at around $1300 or $1400 at L&M, The Guitar Cellar could sell the units pulled from the Asian shipment and shipped back to Canada at $800 with a full markup (Standards were $700). Of course they sold like hotcakes until L&M filed a formal complaint and Gibson had to intervene. But even at the bulk prices that Gibson was selling them for to Tom Lee in Asia, I can only guess at what the actual manufacturing cost was.


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## Steve_F (Feb 15, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> On an average, businesses need to make around 40% margin (not markup) to be healthy. If the overhead can be kept low, then the margin could be a bit lower.


Cool. I assumed Music Stores operated on narrower margins than that. I'd be happier than a pig in sh*t if I was pulling consistent 40% margins. Obviously the industrial world is a different ballgame than the musical instrument business but damn.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Actually, 40% margin just covers the average overhead and cost of doing business in a bricks and mortar store. To make a significant profit actually requires a larger markup.


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## Steve_F (Feb 15, 2008)

bluzfish said:


> Actually, 40% margin just covers the average overhead and cost of doing business in a bricks and mortar store. To make a significant profit actually requires a larger markup.


depends what you consider a margin. Pre or post freight? We never see 40% margins unless it's small ticket items. 40% margins would kill our business on big jobs.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

What type of business do you have?


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## Xelebes (Mar 9, 2015)

Steve_F said:


> depends what you consider a margin. Pre or post freight? We never see 40% margins unless it's small ticket items. 40% margins would kill our business on big jobs.


40% margins are what companies charge who heave a fair bit of specialty. Base construction jobs usually set their margins at 10-20% where volume can make up the overhead. I work in security integration and the base margins tend to be around 40%. We simply do not deal with the volume needed to have margins lower than that.


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## Steve_F (Feb 15, 2008)

Xelebes said:


> 40% margins are what companies charge who heave a fair bit of specialty. Base construction jobs usually set their margins at 10-20% where volume can make up the overhead. I work in security integration and the base margins tend to be around 40%. We simply do not deal with the volume needed to have margins lower than that.



100% on the money. Grocery stores, for instance, operate on crap margins but the volume is insane enough to make profit. I mainly deal with Industrial products (the company I work for is a supplier), but I do some electrical jobs and plumbing and heating as well. Smaller jobs you can make a nice cut but for really big jobs I've seen margins as low as 9-10%. Of course, when you're supplying material for million dollar jobs (I'm still a bit green so I don't get those yet!) a 10% margin is still a decent chunk of change.

I guess 40% makes sense though, I mean, it explains some of the crazy 'blow-out' prices and answers the "how the hell do they stay open" question you ask when you see those prices too.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

What do you do with guitars that are discovered to have flaws or returned after customers notice these things ie scratches, cracks, chips etc?

In your experience, did it ever seem like certain brands/models etc had higher rates of defects than the norm?


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Diablo said:


> What do you do with guitars that are discovered to have flaws or returned after customers notice these things ie scratches, cracks, chips etc?


Again, it depends on the store in question. There are a bunch of factors to consider.

In my experience, flaws like scratches, cracks, and chips mostly occur after the store has already received the guitar. Usually damaged by either customers or staff mishandling the instrument at some point. If you've ever been in a store where the owner freaks out when customers try pulling down guitars on their own and/or try them out with a pick, there is a good reason for that. Customers, by far, do the most damage to the instruments in the store. It is never intentional, but it happens all the time. If it can be repaired in-store, it goes back on the shelves at full price. Otherwise, it will likely sell with some kind of a "floor model" discount.

If a flawed guitar shows up in a shipment, it can still be sold for a profit (even if it has to be sold at a slight discount). You have to weigh your options whether or not it is worth your time to try to sell it, or just send it back. Some distributors are a pain in the butt to deal with when it comes to returns, where as, others are fantastic.



> In your experience, did it ever seem like certain brands/models etc had higher rates of defects than the norm?


Any cheap no name brand. They are not only built very poorly with the cheapest possible parts, but they have little or no quality control. As for bigger name brands? I don't want to get sued so I'll keep my mouth shut on that one.

Suffice to say there is one very popular brand whose guitars would fall into this category, despite the fact that they are a legendary brand (with prices to match).


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

...Gibson...


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I think that was understood


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I would recommend that anyone with little or no experience in buying guitars, takes someone who does have that experience when they go to buy.

I agree that Gibsons are not consistant and that's a diagrace, but you _can _​get great, some would argue the best, guitars if you select carefully.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Milkman said:


> I would recommend that anyone with little or no experience in buying guitars, takes someone who does have that experience when they go to buy.


Absolutely!


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

For what they charge though...shouldn't you be GUARANTEED a certain hard line level of quality? Sure, there will always be the odd stellar example hanging there inconspicuously, but at those prices there should NEVER be a dog, or even a "meh, it's alright..."

And I only threw Gibson out there because I wanted ZERO chance of someone misinterpreting it for my beloved Fender...who aren't perfect either btw.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I would recommend that anyone with little or no experience in buying guitars, takes someone who does have that experience when they go to buy.


I've done that for others--I had some help, but could have used more when I started--but by the time I found my Iceman I was well on my way to knowing stuff--still it's fun to help others and see what they like.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

JBFairthorne said:


> For what they charge though...shouldn't you be GUARANTEED a certain hard line level of quality? Sure, there will always be the odd stellar example hanging there inconspicuously, but at those prices there should NEVER be a dog, or even a "meh, it's alright..."
> 
> And I only threw Gibson out there because I wanted ZERO chance of someone misinterpreting it for my beloved Fender...who aren't perfect either btw.


You're right, but there's the way things should be and the way they are. If you want a good Gibson, and that IS a nice thing to have, you'll have to deal with they way things are.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

zontar said:


> I've done that for others--I had some help, but could have used more when I started--but by the time I found my Iceman I was well on my way to knowing stuff--still it's fun to help others and see what they like.


Coming back to the whole getting help thing... When I bought my first guitar as a teenager, I brought my Uncle to help me. He was showing me the usual big brand named classic rock style guitars, but I was a metalhead at the time. As soon as I saw the Ibanez RG, I ignored all his advice and went straight for it. Turned out to be the second worst guitar I ever bought.

Advice is only useful if someone listens to it. lol


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

jbealsmusic said:


> Advice is only useful if someone listens to it. lol


And sometimes we get bad advice that we listen to--but still it's better to get the help--most of time it's helpful.


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