# How do handle different tunings, live?



## Greg Ellis

Sorry if this is in the wrong place - I wasn't sure where to post the question.

How do you guys handle songs in different tunings when playing live?

I've noticed a roughly 60:40 split between standard A440 and half-step-down (E flat - A flat - D flat, etc.) tuning on the old 70's and 80's rock we're planning to play for an upcoming reunion jam.

Ideally, I'd prefer to stick to a single tuning - it's just easier equipment-wise. I'm not sure the singers will appreciate that, though 

I'm curious how you gigging folks deal with this. Two guitars? Pick one tuning and stick with it? Which tuning?


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## Milkman

Tune to concert A440 and tell your singer to suck it up.

The only tunings other than A440 I use are open tunings and drop D and I bring guitars specifically for those songs.

Using a capo is a compromise and really not great for playing rock guitar.


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## suttree

generally, a band will all decide to play together in Eb, as opposed to standard tuning. you could use two guitars, of course. most jam type situations in my life have been in standard.


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## Mooh

I generally use two or more guitars anyway, so anytime I need to use non-standard tunings there will be one available. All in all it's the best alternative for me.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Milkman

Paul said:


> Most times I agree with Milkman.
> 
> Hi Milkman!!!:wave:
> 
> This time not 100%.
> 
> In this case it's just a reunion jam. If you don't have two guitars for unique tunings, and the Eb, Ab and Db keys are necessary, (not only for the singer, but also for a keyboard player who has learned the tunes in the flat keys), then I think it is easier for a guitar player to work with a capo than it is for the other players to re-learn tunes in a new key.
> 
> If all of the pitched instrument players are bass & guitar, then it doesn't matter. As much as I dislike 1/2 step down tunings, give the singer a wee break and play the entire night in Eb.



I've never found it necessary or desireable to tune down for singers, and any keyboard player who can't transpose a piece......

I tuned down a whole step once for a singer who was doing me a favour and only for two songs. I found that the guitars sounded like shite and overall the music sounded off.


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## Guest

Paul said:


> (not only for the singer, but also for a keyboard player who has learned the tunes in the flat keys), then I think it is easier for a guitar player to work with a capo than it is for the other players to re-learn tunes in a new key.


I have to disagree here. It's easier for the keyboard player to use that transpose button on his keys and keep playing it with whatever fingering he learned. That being said I've never worked with a keyboard player who learned finger positions instead of chords and couldn't just switch the key around at will.

And +1 to Milkman's comment that the singer should just suck it up.


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## guitarman2

Milkman said:


> Tune to concert A440 and tell your singer to suck it up.
> 
> The only tunings other than A440 I use are open tunings and drop D and I bring guitars specifically for those songs.
> 
> Using a capo is a compromise and really not great for playing rock guitar.



A guitar strictly for drop D? It takes all of 2 seconds.


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## Greg Ellis

Hmmm... lots of "suck it up singer" comments. Interesting...

Did I mention that the songs I'm talking about were initially recorded in a dropped tuning?

Songs like "Bad Company", "Detroit Rock City", "Children of the Grave", "Children of the Sea", "Welcome to Paradise", etc.

I'm starting to think I might need two guitars.


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## Milkman

guitarman2 said:


> A guitar strictly for drop D? It takes all of 2 seconds.



Try it with a Floyd Rose.


I don't STRICTLY use the guitar in question for drop D. I also use it for songs that are better played on a Tele. I keep another Tele on stage for open tunings.


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## Guest

guitarman2 said:


> A guitar strictly for drop D? It takes all of 2 seconds.


I find my strings, once stretched, don't like to sit at different pitches so if I needed to do a few songs with drop D I'd be inclined to carry a guitar with the 1st string tuned and broken in at drop D so it doesn't start to wander mid-song.


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## Guest

Paul said:


> Sometimes it's tough. If the keyboard player is using a real piano, (it happens), and you want to switch Stevie Wonder's "Sir Duke" from the original B natural to the horn friendly Bb to keep someone happy, there ain't a lot of keyboard players out there who can make that switch on the fly.


Funny you mention Mr. Wonder. Covering I Wish with The Apollo Effect we had to move the key around half a dozen times before we found something the singer was comfortable with. Maybe I've been blessed getting to work with keyboard players who can transpose on the fly quickly?



> There are a lot of bluesy patterns on piano that don't translate well in all 12 keys. It has to do with the ability to slide in and out of grace notes taking advantage the unequal division of black and white keys on the key bed.


Hence my transpose key comment. Lets you keep the same black-white key rolls. Of course, if you're on the real deal it's not going to work. But it's a really rare thing I play with a keyboard player who's carting around a baby grand with him. :smile:


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## Guest

jroberts said:


> Unless you're playing along with the recording, that shouldn't matter.


+1. Learn the changes, not the recording.


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## ne1roc

Milkman said:


> Try it with a Floyd Rose.


 I have a D Tuna on my Floyd! Its works perfectly........but Wolfgang Floyds are not floating.

Being a Van Halen fan, I love the tone of a guitar tuned down half step. We do 2 sets 440 and third set 1/2 step down.


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## Greg Ellis

ne1roc said:


> I have a D Tuna on my Floyd! Its works perfectly........but Wolfgang Floyds are not floating.
> 
> Being a Van Halen fan, I love the tone of a guitar tuned down half step. We do 2 sets 440 and third set 1/2 step down.


So... two different guitars, right?


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## Wheeman

Can I just point out that 440 Hz is the tuning *pitch* for the A note above middle C on a keyboard? This is just the anal portion of me. I know that you are all referring to EADGBE. :smile:

Back to the topic, the singer can suck it up, the keyboardist should know how to transpose on the fly... yadda, yadda. Transposing is no fun and a lot of work. Especially. from your standard C tuned instrument to say a B-flat trumpet.


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## guitarman2

Milkman said:


> Try it with a Floyd Rose.
> 
> 
> I don't STRICTLY use the guitar in question for drop D. I also use it for songs that are better played on a Tele. I keep another Tele on stage for open tunings.


Yup I can see your point. I remember when I used floating bridges and broke a string. That would he it for me in that song.
Hey Milkman I see your from Brantford. Whats the name of your band and where you gigging?


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## zontar

Greg Ellis said:


> I'm starting to think I might need two guitars.


That's what I'd do.
The capo suggestion may work, although I personally wouldn't take it--I hate capos--although I may wind up getting one if I get serious about playing slide in an open tuning.


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## Milkman

guitarman2 said:


> Yup I can see your point. I remember when I used floating bridges and broke a string. That would he it for me in that song.
> Hey Milkman I see your from Brantford. Whats the name of your band and where you gigging?


The name of my band WAS Tommyknockers. I folded it on Saturday. Right now I'm writing for the next album and doing sound on weekends.


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## Milkman

Wheeman said:


> Can I just point out that 440 Hz is the tuning *pitch* for the A note above middle C on a keyboard? This is just the anal portion of me. I know that you are all referring to EADGBE. :smile:
> 
> Back to the topic, the singer can suck it up, the keyboardist should know how to transpose on the fly... yadda, yadda. Transposing is no fun and a lot of work. Especially. from your standard C tuned instrument to say a B-flat trumpet.


I'm sure everyone knows what A440 means. This is the standard point of reference we use to tune our fifth string. When we say we tune to A440 all we mean is that we tune our A string to 440hz and all other strings relative to it.

Transposing is a simple matter of a couple of commands on most keyboards, or if the player is really skilled in most cases he or she won't have a lot of trouble making a key change manually.


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## ne1roc

Greg Ellis said:


> So... two different guitars, right?


Well I use two guitars, but I tune both down a half step for the third set.


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## guitarman2

Milkman said:


> The name of my band WAS Tommyknockers. I folded it on Saturday. Right now I'm writing for the next album and doing sound on weekends.


Let me know if you start up a new band. I'll come and check it out.


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## Mooh

Tommyknockers folded?! Best name in R'n'R.

Peace, Mooh.


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## shoretyus

Milkman said:


> Transposing is a simple matter of a couple of commands on most keyboards, or if the player is really skilled in most cases he or she won't have a lot of trouble making a key change manually.


Damn I knew Laurens Hammond forgot something on my organ. Oh but they are always in tune.


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## shoretyus

Paul said:


> Tonewheel organs are only intune if the incoming power is 60Hz.


You are correct. Tons written about that in other places. I fortunately haven't had to deal with that YET but I am aware.


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## chaoscypher

Unless you have talented musicians or music teachers in the crowd, no one in the audience will notice the difference between Standard tuning and Drop Half-Step tuning. Go with what's easiest for everyone else in the band.


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## jimmy peters

Milkman said:


> Tune to concert A440 and tell your singer to suck it up.
> 
> The only tunings other than A440 I use are open tunings and drop D and I bring guitars specifically for those songs.
> 
> Using a capo is a compromise and really not great for playing rock guitar.


 try A442-and notice the difference in the crowd plus the band.


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## Greg Ellis

Thanks to all for the input.

I think we've settled on Eb tuning for everything, just to keep it simple.

Saves dragging extra guitars etc.

Standard tuning could work too, but we're all communicating well ahead of time so I think Eb is going to work out just fine.

It makes the bends a bit easier too


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## Diablo

Greg Ellis said:


> Thanks to all for the input.
> 
> I think we've settled on Eb tuning for everything, just to keep it simple.
> 
> Saves dragging extra guitars etc.
> 
> Standard tuning could work too, but we're all communicating well ahead of time so I think Eb is going to work out just fine.
> 
> It makes the bends a bit easier too


Seems like the best solution all around.
"singers should just suck it up" isnt a fair option...in some types of music, involving more than 2 octaves, it just may be severely uncomfortable if not painful or impossible for a singer to hit certain notes. And believe me, the audience will notice what the singer is doing a lot more that what the instruments (for the most part). Not at all the same thing as changing tuning of a song.

Singings tough work ,and we tend to lose a 1/2 step every few years after 25yrs, so give your singer a break, and help him/her to be comfortable!


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## Milkman

Diablo said:


> Seems like the best solution all around.
> "singers should just suck it up" isnt a fair option...in some types of music, involving more than 2 octaves, it just may be severely uncomfortable if not painful or impossible for a singer to hit certain notes. And believe me, the audience will notice what the singer is doing a lot more that what the instruments (for the most part). Not at all the same thing as changing tuning of a song.
> 
> Singings tough work ,and we tend to lose a 1/2 step every few years after 25yrs, so give your singer a break, and help him/her to be comfortable!


As a singer I'm fully aware of how tough it can be, and yet in decades of gigging I have never felt the need to tune down for vocals. In fact I find that guitars sound better tuned UP if anything. I always figured if a song is out of my range, why make all the other songs sound crappy to suit that one?

But as with many topics, it comes down to personal taste and opinion.

Again, I say suck it up.

Too may prima dona singers out there.


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## elindso

Don't hit the high notes if you can't.

Nobody wants to hear screechy old guy stretching for notes that will never be reached.:smile:


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## Gene Machine

*for me....*

I usually do a modified G tuning by dropping the A string to G, then I get the 4 middle strings going for 1)slide on bad to the bone, tush (with low E to do a walking bass and high E to get the end riff) also 2) most Stones tunes. Not as good as full G tuning or E (my personal favorite for slide) but I like not carrying an army of guitars ( because I don't have roadies) and I can pretty much play all my songs in standard or modified G tuning.

I never drop tune. I missed that kick, never got on it.

I don't do Eb, but would be interested. Man of my faves do it. I think it gives an interesting tone. A little bit different than the standard. Certainly not for vocal reason, cuz I'm the vocalist. Ii do keep the AC/DC songs till the end of the night. If fI'm on my game I can do Highway to hell, but YSMANL kills me, I have to do it an octave lower.

g.


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## Bob Rock

You can always buy that new Gidson Les Paul "The Robot" one touch of button and you have a retuned guitar.
Myself I take 3 guitars to the gig, one standard tuning, one open G tuning and my acoustic tuned down a full step. Works for me


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## a Pack of Wolves

i use my guitars in 440 and cap about 1/2 the time,to fit the song
and 
sometimes i drop the E string to D

play in whatever key/range suits the vocalist best

vocals are the lead/focus for a reason
guitars aren't the star

heads out of arses y'all


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