# New Martin price



## Davestp1 (Apr 25, 2006)

I'm looking to buy my first acoustic guitar and have decided on buying a new Martin D35. There are 3 Martin dealers here in town (4 if you count both L&M's) I talked to one earlier last week where I had bought a new strat a couple of years back and they offered me a decent enough price on a new one. I went to L&M (at Alta Vista) late last week just to get an idea of what they had and when I told the guy at the counter I was interested in a D35, he quoted me full list price. I asked if there was any wiggle room in that price and he replied the price was the price but they would match any "advertised" price. As Martin does not seem to allow it's dealers to list the regular Martin line up of new guitars on their internet sites as anything but full list price, that policy seems a bit useless. 

Is it unreasonable to expect a dealer to offer a guitar at anything less than full retail?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

It depends on if you have a good history with that dealer or not, L&M included.


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## Davestp1 (Apr 25, 2006)

Thats what I kind of thought so I'll probably buy from the dealer I bought from before. But it's not like people are lining up to buy sub 4k guitars....


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## Geetarz (Jan 19, 2016)

Davestp1 said:


> I'm looking to buy my first acoustic guitar and have decided on buying a new Martin D35. There are 3 Martin dealers here in town (4 if you count both L&M's) I talked to one earlier last week where I had bought a new strat a couple of years back and they offered me a decent enough price on a new one. I went to L&M (at Alta Vista) late last week just to get an idea of what they had and when I told the guy at the counter I was interested in a D35, he quoted me full list price. I asked if there was any wiggle room in that price and he replied the price was the price but they would match any "advertised" price. As Martin does not seem to allow it's dealers to list the regular Martin line up of new guitars on their internet sites as anything but full list price, that policy seems a bit useless.
> 
> Is it unreasonable to expect a dealer to offer a guitar at anything less than full retail?


Something seems amiss here...Martin lists the guitar with an MSRP of $3499.00USD...which is a little over $4500.00CDN...online, L&M has the guitar priced at a little over $3900...if that's the price you were quoted, my guess is that's the MAP pricing...Minimum Advertised Pricing and no shop can advertise beneath that...it's their call if they want to go cheaper or more expensive...


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Davestp1 said:


> Thats what I kind of thought so I'll probably buy from the dealer I bought from before. But it's not like people are lining up to buy sub 4k guitars....


Definitely buy from where you get the best deal. 6 years ago I was in the market for a new Martin. I saw a Martin that had a sign on in it stating it was an HD28 at L&M, though it didn't look like one. I picked it up and fell in love with it. Turns out it was an HD28V listed for $3,400. I said I'd buy it if they gave it to me for the HD28 price which at the time was $2,800. They agreed so I bought it on the spot. I still have it and I noticed last week that the current price on the HD28V is $5,200.
Any way if I see a guitar somewhere else for cheaper I'd get it there. I have no loyalty to any store.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Loyalty to a store is usually what earns you better pricing long term.


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## Davestp1 (Apr 25, 2006)

Minimum advertised pricing is what I was kind of talking about when L&M says they will match any advertised price and if the prices are all the same why would I buy from them if they simply will match the price elsewhere but not beat it. In the end, there is more to buying a guitar than the best price although that is a big factor. 

They quoted me at that price (3919) and said that was their price and any advertised price that was lower they would match. But as all the Martin dealers advertise the same price, there is no lower advertised price. I'm 99 percent sure that I will buy it from the first dealer which is where I bought before.


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## Geetarz (Jan 19, 2016)

The way MAP pricing works is that it's the lowest point anyone is allowed to actually advertise...if someone advertises lower, another business can simply call Martin up (or rather their distributer here in Canada) and say "such & such is advertising lower than MAP" and that will be the end of that. L&M saying they'll match any advertised price lower than what they advertise, if it is in fact MAP, is a little sneaky. There's nothing they can do about unadvertised pricing...that's at the stores discretion. I know of a few people who have purchased various products from St. Johns Music where I can't imagine anything other than St. Johns selling under their cost...or making a 2% profit maybe. Never purchased from there myself but they're on my radar after learning that. They want to move product. On the flip side, Lauzon's here in Ottawa recently bumped a $7500 axe up to $11500 after its sat on the wall for 3 or 4yrs and the dollar has been hit...not too worried about moving product it seems...

I agree that working repeatedly with a particular store will benefit you as a buyer


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Have you tried actually asking L&M if they can do better than their advertised price?

Big online stores (amazon for example) sometimes have a lower price. Not all dealers advertise at MAP, so it's worth searching out ads on bigger ticket items.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Budda said:


> Loyalty to a store is usually what earns you better pricing long term.


Been doing this 40 years. Maybe at one time but not now. I've noticed I don't even get the same considerations from L&M I used to. They used to let me take stuff home to try before buying (expensive amps and guitars) let me transfer stuff from other stores without any fees or deposits. I purchased 90% of what I took home or had transferred. The last price break I had was the Martin I bought 6 years ago. They changed policies and I'm treated no different than some new guy walking in off the street. I find the best price regardless who has it. The mom and pop shops are the worst because they can't compete with someone like L&M.
I do find that L&M is pretty good with their pricing.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Geetarz said:


> On the flip side, Lauzon's here in Ottawa recently bumped a $7500 axe up to $11500 after its sat on the wall for 3 or 4yrs and the dollar has been hit...not too worried about moving product it seems...
> 
> I agree that working repeatedly with a particular store will benefit you as a buyer


I bought a Custom shop Nocaster from the Ottawa L&M last August that had been there over a year. I saw it advertised at another store for over 4k but L&M sold it to me for the price it was with out bumping for the dollar. As well I was able to negotiate another $175 off. I found them much more flexible than the other 2 stores local to me.


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## Davestp1 (Apr 25, 2006)

_Have you tried actually asking L&M if they can do better than their advertised price?_

Yes I did, when I was there last week (It was Thursday afternoon after work, around 3:30) I asked the guy if they could do better, was there any wiggle room and the guy said no, the price was the price and they had one in "their warehouse." And of course, they would match any advertised price for whatever good that is. 

So they got crossed off the list of prospective sellers of an almost 4k guitar (with taxes) right then and there. There are only 2 other dealers in town and one of them already gave me a way better price as noted in my first post...You only get one chance to make a first impression and it was not a good one. I've only ever bought small items like picks and inexpensive guitar parts from L&M and it looks like that will continue. Their loss.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

If you can't afford the 'new guitar smell' it would make great financial sense to buy used.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

There are two reasons to buy new:
1) You know exactly what you want, need to be the first owner and you are willing to pay a premium for that privilege and Martin's lifetime warranty.
2) You found a new one on the wall that is absolutely perfect for you and you need to have that very one.

If neither of those two options mean +$1k to you, look for a good used one that fits #2 above.

Good luck with the hunt.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

I thought, wr0ngly perhaps, that the Martin warranty is no longer lifetime as it was decades ago?


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## Geetarz (Jan 19, 2016)

ed2000 said:


> I thought, wr0ngly perhaps, that the Martin warranty is no longer lifetime as it was decades ago?


It's lifetime


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

ed2000 said:


> I thought, wr0ngly perhaps, that the Martin warranty is no longer lifetime as it was decades ago?


Yes it is. The life time warranty pretty much equates to a neck reset that will be needed maybe 15 years down the road. So buying used you take that in to account. I bought my HD28V new because I got a great deal on it. I've never kept any guitar more than 3 or 4 years. I've had my Martin 6 1/2 years and am confident its a lifer.


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## Davestp1 (Apr 25, 2006)

_If you can't afford the 'new guitar smell' it would make great financial sense to buy used._
and
_There are two reasons to buy new:
1) You know exactly what you want, need to be the first owner and you are willing to pay a premium for that privilege and Martin's lifetime warranty_

That is not the issue although I won't overpay when I can get a much better price elsewhere and response 1 hit the nail on the head....


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

Between the low Canadian dollar and Martin price increases buying new is tough.

In Sept 2014 I purchased a new D15M -Burst for $1350 plus tax-18 months later it is $2325 plus tax.......


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I paid 2K for my D18 in June of 2012 and now they are 3.5K.

I couldn't afford to buy it now.

There is a new D35MP at the 12th fret and last I looked it was 3K new with warranty. That's less than a standard D35 goes for these days and according to their website it's still there. I was considering this guitar for awhile but ended up with and HD35 after about a year of looking around.

Given today's prices I'd consider that HD35 new for 3 grand even though it's been in the shop for awhile.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Budda said:


> Loyalty to a store is usually what earns you better pricing long term.


Yes, but I find that's the staff and not the chain, or even single location. I got great deals from a young fella that work at a local TomLee. I happened to be PA shopping at the time and L&M wasn't dickering ("Toronto sets the prices" cop-out) on brands everyone sold - Mackie, Behringer, TC Electronic. I dropped $5k+ in six month at that store because of that salesman. I think we both did OK. Then he left and his replacement didn't give me deals. Back to making a relationship at L&M.

My local L&M salesman left a year ago to become the Yorkville rep. Good for him, but what about me? I made sure he lubed up his replacement (actually another guy working there at the time that I knew to see) so I didn't have to. So I deal with one guy again, he's very fair to me (I know, I still shop around, even other L&M's). But I've walked in and bought a couple things (1 guitar, 1 amp so far) when he was on a day-off. I've gotta get his schedule sorted out - I always seemed to know what day Paul was off.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Wardo said:


> I paid 2K for my D18 in June of 2012 and now they are 3.5K.
> 
> I couldn't afford to buy it now.
> 
> ...


I paid $2,800 6 and a half years ago for my HD28V. I see not at L&M its $5,200


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## Davestp1 (Apr 25, 2006)

I ended up buying this brand new D41 from an authorized US Martin dealer (they are one of eight authorized dealers on the Martin website who can sell on the net with no issues) and have already registered it with Martin as the original purchaser so I get the lifetime warranty. All in, I paid what L&M wanted for a new D35 plus tax. For a D41. And it's brand new, not a floor model or a demo. I wanted to buy from another local dealer I talked to first but could not turn down a D41 for the same price.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

That's a beautiful guitar that will age better than most of us will. Congrats on this!


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

That's a great looking guitar Dave, congrats!


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## Davestp1 (Apr 25, 2006)

Sold a whack of tubes a few weeks ago to buy it. Surprised myself at how much I made. So much so that I posted a bunch more....It's my first ever acoustic guitar.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Hey, I paid for part of that! 8)

Nice choice for your first acoustic.


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## Davestp1 (Apr 25, 2006)

Yes you did! Have more for sale in the amp forum....


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

Geetarz said:


> On the flip side, Lauzon's here in Ottawa recently bumped a $7500 axe up to $11500 after its sat on the wall for 3 or 4yrs and the dollar has been hit...not too worried about moving product it seems...


Lauzon's has never had a difficult time moving high end products. I was in there once when someone put down a $30,000.00 deposit on a Steinway.

Dave Lauzon is one of the4 best in the business. While I won't speak to why he bumped the price (I can guess), if he did it I'm sure he had good reason...


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## Geetarz (Jan 19, 2016)

Steve6D said:


> Lauzon's has never had a difficult time moving high end products. I was in there once when someone put down a $30,000.00 deposit on a Steinway.
> 
> Dave Lauzon is one of the4 best in the business. While I won't speak to why he bumped the price (I can guess), if he did it I'm sure he had good reason...


It's the only place to buy a new Steinway..so if someone in the area that has $30K to drop on Steinway wants a Steinway, Lauzon is the only place to do so. But I believe they lost Steinway...
They're also the only place with a real selection of high end fretted stuff anywhere in the area and they seem to have a good lock on that. They really only carry the names people "want"...where you don't really need to sell. Not sure which one Dave is so I can't really say if he's one of the 4 best in the biz...the big guy is really nice and helpful and knows his stuff. One guy seemed drunk all the time and the old guy always trying to talk about how expensive things are is creepy...maybe that's Dave.
Their guitar tech is tops!

Sorry to derail Davestp...GREAT guitar by the way!


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

Geetarz said:


> It's the only place to buy a new Steinway..so if someone in the area that has $30K to drop on Steinway wants a Steinway, Lauzon is the only place to do so. But I believe they lost Steinway...


They had the line as late as 2012, which is when I left Taylor.

And $30K was the deposit. The piano was closer to $100,000.00...



> They're also the only place with a real selection of high end fretted stuff anywhere in the area and they seem to have a good lock on that.


They sell Taylor, Steve's and L&M sell Taylor. Same thing with Gibson and Martin, and some pretty high-level stuff. Now, for things like, say, Suhr or Collings? Yeah, they're probably the only game in town...



> They really only carry the names people "want"...where you don't really need to sell.


Oh, I disagree. I've spent more than a fair amount of time in that store, and I've watched them sell. Sure, sometimes folks walk in already knowing what they want. But when it comes to something like acoustic guitars, selling happens, and I stand by my opinion of them...



> Not sure which one Dave is so I can't really say if he's one of the 4 best in the biz... the big guy is really nice and helpful and knows his stuff. One guy seemed drunk all the time and the old guy always trying to talk about how expensive things are is creepy...maybe that's Dave./


Dave is the owner's son; Ken is the owner. Ken's a real character, but he's a great guy. I don't know "the big guy", and certainly no one seemed drunk while I was ever there...


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## Davestp1 (Apr 25, 2006)

I've dealt with Dave on a few occasions. Great guy and very knowledgeable and fair. I wanted and was going to buy a D35 from him but for a couple of hundred more I could get a D41.....I thought long and hard about it but in the end, I knew it would always be in the back of my mind every time I picked up the D35 and though it would have been a great guitar (the D35) I would always have an unsatisfied feeling about it.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steve6D said:


> Oh, I disagree. I've spent more than a fair amount of time in that store, and I've watched them sell. Sure, sometimes folks walk in already knowing what they want. But when it comes to something like acoustic guitars, selling happens, and I stand by my opinion of them...


When it comes to shopping for an instrument, especially high end, theres not a dam thing any salesman could say to me to make me buy it other than quote me a price thats cheaper than anywhere else. 
Instruments sell them selves because you sit down and play it and it speaks to you. Any musician shopping an expensive Martin, Collings etc should already know everything about it before they walk in. Sales people in a music store aren't that useful to me other than quoting me their best price on a piece that I'm interested in.


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## Geetarz (Jan 19, 2016)

Steve6D said:


> They had the line as late as 2012, which is when I left Taylor.
> 
> And $30K was the deposit. The piano was closer to $100,000.00...


...and if some other place was the only Steinway dealer in town, the fella with the big bucks would have been laying $30K down for that $100K Steinway there. It's a status symbol of wealth and I'd wager heavily the name is what sold it, not the salesperson. What musician can afford a $100K instrument to sit in their house? It ain't going on the road with them.



Steve6D said:


> They sell Taylor, Steve's and L&M sell Taylor. Same thing with Gibson and Martin, and some pretty high-level stuff. Now, for things like, say, Suhr or Collings? Yeah, they're probably the only game in town...


The selection of Taylor's at Steve's and L&M is dismal compared to Lauzon and none of the techs at Steve's or L&M can even work on Taylor's; the tech at Lauzon's is the only guy in the city. Not surprising they'd sell more. I recall maybe seeing 1 or 2 Gibson Custom Shops at Steve's or L&M and there is a slew of beauties at Lauzon...and they play WAY better thanks to their tech. The Martin selection is pretty slim at Lauzon but again, they did, for a while, have the only authorized Martin tech in the city. Then you've got the Collings, Suhr, PRS, U.S Gretsch and them being the only Fender CS shop in Eastern Ontario according to their website. They've got the names of guitars people want and the best tech around making them play tops.



Steve6D said:


> Oh, I disagree. I've spent more than a fair amount of time in that store, and I've watched them sell. Sure, sometimes folks walk in already knowing what they want. But when it comes to something like acoustic guitars, selling happens, and I stand by my opinion of them...


I'm with guitarman2 here; an instrument sells itself. NO ONE is handing me a dog and selling it to me. Price matters. I bought my Gretsch Chet Atkins 6120 from Lauzon because it played WAY better than any other offering around and the price was fair during a sales event. It even seems like Davestp1 bought his lovely D41 elsewhere from Lauzon because of the deal he got.



Steve6D said:


> Dave is the owner's son; Ken is the owner. Ken's a real character, but he's a great guy. I don't know "the big guy", and certainly no one seemed drunk while I was ever there...


Still don't know who's who but I think the big guy is named Steve...that's who I bought my 6120 from.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

Well, you can't please everyone.

The Steve's and L&M in Ottawa used to stock all of their brands pretty well. In fact, at one time, Lauzon couldn't touch the number of Gibson electrics Steve's had in stock. But that's neither here nor there.

I'm a photographer. When I first got (back) into photography, I was still at Taylor, living in San Diego. I could've bought all of my equipment online or by calling some store in L.A. after doing the mountains of research I did (and, boy, did I), but I opted to buy locally. The prices were a little higher than I could've had elsewhere, but I also wasn't going to be just a customer number. I got to know the people working at the local store. They'd let me know if they got in a particular piece of equipment they thought I might be interested in, or even let me know when they'd ordered in a particular piece. Sure, they wanted to make a sale, but the point is that an online dealer or one of the stores in Los Angeles would've done that. The relationship I built with them paid dividends for me, for example, in terms of getting free loaner gear and free use of their lab.

Before I worked at Taylor, I worked at Guitar Trader in San Diego. I always tried to give my customers the best deal that I could while still being fair to myself. I had to make a certain amount of money on a sale to make the time I spent with the customer worthwhile. I always operated (and still do) on one simple premise: If a deal isn't fair to all parties involved, it's a bad deal. I walked plenty of deals with people who were only interested in spending as little as possible and were interested in nothing else. If they grind me on price, I have little interest in working with them in the future. I even had one customer tell me he didn't care if me or the store made money. Well, what Mr. Genius didn't realize is that if we didn't make money, we wouldn't be in business (and this was from a guy who whined about us being closed on Christmas; he was of another faith). He wanted us to give him cost +5 and be happy to do so. It got to the point where he demanded himself right on over to Guitar Center, simply because no one in our store wanted to work with him.

You say "price matters", and I agree. The difference is that it appears as though it's the _only _thing that matters to you.

Anyone can beat a price. That's easy. Sooner or later everyone gets down to the same price. 

Not everyone can beat "the deal", though...


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

Geetarz said:


> ...and if some other place was the only Steinway dealer in town, the fella with the big bucks would have been laying $30K down for that $100K Steinway there.


I acknowledge that may be your suspicion, but there's absolutely no way to substantiate that.

And you're wrong if you think someone doesn't need to be sold something so expensive. Actually, the opposite is true...


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steve6D said:


> And you're wrong if you think someone doesn't need to be sold something so expensive. Actually, the opposite is true...


I've been doing this since 1973. I have never had a salesman talk me in to an expensive gear purchase. You're dreaming if you think musicians who have expensive tastes don't already know exactly what they want before hand. Especially in this day and age of the Internet. I've researched my purchase till I'm almost sick of it before I pull the trigger.
Music store salesman sell $299 fender squire\amp packages to 12 year olds while telling them they can be the next Van Halen. I bought an amp (Carr Impala) at Lauzon's last summer. All the salesman told me was that they had a used one in and I should check it out. I'm the one that did the research on it a week before my trip to Ottawa. I'm the one that played with it for 2 hours with my guitar before I decided to pull the trigger. Whats the salesman gonna say? "This Impala has nice fenders".
The salesmans only use for me is to cash me out when I'm leaving. I know they'd like to think there role is more important but there is a reason why most music stores stock way more $299 guitars than $3,999 guitars. Cause their selling pitches are for the teeny boppers.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> I've been doing this since 1973. I have never had a salesman talk me in to an expensive gear purchase. You're dreaming if you think musicians who have expensive tastes don't already know exactly what they want before hand. Especially in this day and age of the Internet. I've researched my purchase till I'm almost sick of it before I pull the trigger.
> Music store salesman sell $299 fender squire\amp packages to 12 year olds while telling them they can be the next Van Halen. I bought an amp (Carr Impala) at Lauzon's last summer. All the salesman told me was that they had a used one in and I should check it out. I'm the one that did the research on it a week before my trip to Ottawa. I'm the one that played with it for 2 hours with my guitar before I decided to pull the trigger. Whats the salesman gonna say? "This Impala has nice fenders".
> The salesmans only use for me is to cash me out when I'm leaving. I know they'd like to think there role is more important but there is a reason why most music stores stock way more $299 guitars than $3,999 guitars. Cause their selling pitches are for the teeny boppers.


I, too, am no rookie at this, and I respectfully disagree with you, primarily on the premise that you seem to be promoting; that you're the norm. You're not. You're the exception. You're an anomaly.

The reason music stores stock more $299.00 guitars is because more people buy them. That's it. It's no more complicated than that. However, in no way does that translate to people, who have thousands to spend, not requiring or desiring the help of a salesman. In fact many do. I would venture to say that most do.

You're clearly someone who knows what he wants and is completely uninterested in having any type of relationship with a local retailer (your purchase doesn't qualify as a "relationship"), and that's fine. But I can assure you that many people want _exactly _that...


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steve6D said:


> I, too, am no rookie at this, and I respectfully disagree with you, primarily on the premise that you seem to be promoting; that you're the norm. You're not. You're the exception. You're an anomaly.
> 
> The reason music stores stock more $299.00 guitars is because more people buy them. That's it. It's no more complicated than that. However, in no way does that translate to people, who have thousands to spend, not requiring or desiring the help of a salesman. In fact many do. I would venture to say that most do.
> 
> You're clearly someone who knows what he wants and is completely uninterested in having any type of relationship with a local retailer (your purchase doesn't qualify as a "relationship"), and that's fine. But I can assure you that many people want _exactly _that...


You prove my point though. I am not the norm?. The majority of consumers buy the cheap guitars. The mid level guitars would be next biggest sales. American made teles, gibson standards. Most musicians buy these and most would prefer the custom shop stuff but know their budget doesn't allow it. They are still familiar enough with the product they don't really need to be pushed by a salesman.
Of course if I'm such an anomaly why do I have no problem hooking up with a million other musicians for reviews and information on the latest custom shop release, etc. Every music store I've ever been in I've never seen a salesman pull some kind of magic to convince someone to buy something they had no intention to buy before they went in. Not when it comes to the high end stuff. Yes when mommy and daddy bring their 10 year old in they fall easy prey because mommy and daddy and little johnny for the most part know nothing except what the salesman tells them.
An example of what a salesman does. When I was in Lauzons I was looking to try some different delay pedals The salesman brought me a Catalinbread belle epoch. He proceeded to tell me how great it was. So I plugged it in and played with it for about 15 to 20 minutes. I didn't like it.I didn't buy it. Had I liked it. I would have bought it. But how does that give any credit to the salesman that he didn't anything special if I did buy it. He brought a pedal to me that I hadn't considered. I still have to play with it and see if I like it. And any other guitar player that knows anything would have done the same thing. Only the inexperienced tiny tot wouldn't know any better.
I understand you spent some time on the sales end of gear. So I get why you'd want to high light more importance to the role. I've got no skin in the game either way. I'm just telling it like it is.
To be honest. I don't see my self as an anomoly. I don't think I have this special insight that makes me the 1% highly knowledgeable about gear. There are hundreds of forums on the net with thousands of people who are gear addicts and likely don't need a sales guy to tell them what to buy.


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## Geetarz (Jan 19, 2016)

Very well put guitarman2.
Sorry Steve6D, gotta side yet again with guitarman2. I don't believe saving a buck isn't a big factor for buyers. Things like Kijiji, Craigslist and EBay would have died long ago if that were the case. I've never had a silver tongued snake sell me anything I didn't want and wasn't sure on. Much like guitarman2; they check me out at the cash and that's about it...they can save their stories for the teeny boppers...


Steve6D said:


> I acknowledge that may be your suspicion, but there's absolutely no way to substantiate that.
> 
> And you're wrong if you think someone doesn't need to be sold something so expensive. Actually, the opposite is true...


And no way for you to substantiate the opposite. And I believe you are wrong that a guy laying down $30K cash didn't want that $100K Steinway...and being the only place to get one, he got what he wanted...no selling necessary.
I'm fine with you believing salesmen run the world and people get sold things they otherwise wouldn't want Steve6D...obviously you're a salesmen. But I'll never buy that load of hokey myself. In fact, I often leave a place where I may purchase something if some sleezy sales guy is trying to over pitch me. At Lauzon's, I knew what I wanted..actually waited for their annual sale and was lucky the guitar I wanted was there. I think Steve that sold it to me may have just handed it to me and I went into a back room, played around for about 20mins and took my new axe home. It sold itself, not Steve pitching me the glories of a 6120.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> You prove my point though. I am not the norm?


Permit me to clarify: You're not the norm among those who buy high end guitars...



> The majority of consumers buy the cheap guitars. The mid level guitars would be next biggest sales. American made teles, gibson standards. Most musicians buy these and most would prefer the custom shop stuff but know their budget doesn't allow it. They are still familiar enough with the product they don't really need to be pushed by a salesman.


And my experience, as both a salesman and a customer, tells me you're incorrect...



> Of course if I'm such an anomaly why do I have no problem hooking up with a million other musicians for reviews and information on the latest custom shop release, etc.


Um, because you have an internet connection?

I really don't see the point you're trying to make...

Every music store I've ever been in I've never seen a salesman pull some kind of magic to convince someone to buy something they had no intention to buy before they went in. Not when it comes to the high end stuff. Yes when mommy and daddy bring their 10 year old in they fall easy prey because mommy and daddy and little johnny for the most part know nothing except what the salesman tells them.



> An example of what a salesman does. When I was in Lauzons I was looking to try some different delay pedals The salesman brought me a Catalinbread belle epoch. He proceeded to tell me how great it was. So I plugged it in and played with it for about 15 to 20 minutes. I didn't like it.I didn't buy it. Had I liked it. I would have bought it. But how does that give any credit to the salesman that he didn't anything special if I did buy it.


If you'd have bought it, you would've had to acknowledge that he, at the very least, knew about something you did not, and that he thought it was something you might like. It would be hard for you to not give the guy any credit when you didn't even know to ask for it...



> I understand you spent some time on the sales end of gear. So I get why you'd want to high light more importance to the role. I've got no skin in the game either way. I'm just telling it like it is.
> To be honest. I don't see my self as an anomoly. I don't think I have this special insight that makes me the 1% highly knowledgeable about gear. There are hundreds of forums on the net with thousands of people who are gear addicts and likely don't need a sales guy to tell them what to buy.


And those people are still in the minority...


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## Davestp1 (Apr 25, 2006)

I think this thread has taken on a life of its own...In the end the final price does matter especially when there is a huge gap. I have to give kudos to Dave at Lauzon's, they have a great store. I bought a fender custom shop strat from them a while back and they bent over backwards to make me happy with it. I just knew in the back of my mind that I would constantly compare the (excellent) D35 to the D41 and I would never be happy with it (the D35). So I bought the D41. The dealer is highly recommended on the Acoustic guitar forum and the Unofficial Martin guitar forum. I emailed, told him what I was looking for and where I was. He emailed me back 2 or 3 minutes later with a shipped price that was 40 percent off US list price. For a brand new from the factory Martin that gives me the lifetime warranty. We talked on the phone a couple of times before I pulled the trigger. I paid less for the D41 than a D35 would cost me here. I even lucked out with not getting nailed with major brokerage fees and taxes at the border.

Not that it matters, I got the guitar Friday evening and really had no time until today to play it. I learned to play on an electric, never had an acoustic and this is my first one. I started playing it around 1 PM today and then next time I looked at the clock it was already 5:30....


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steve6D. Maybe we're saying the same thing and just not connecting here. I agree that the salesmans worth comes in to the mid-low to low end stuff. Maybe the sales guy could even convince a rich guy to buy his little johnny a custom shop axe and a boutique amp cause daddy's convinced his little johnny has the chops to be the next slash. 
In my teen years I depended on my dads hand me down cheap japanese guitar copies when he bought a new guitar (1970's)
When I started touring I went bought a telecaster cause my favorite guitarists played one (lets face it the famous artists are the real salesman of musical instruments) and a twin reverb for the same reason.
Then about the year 2000 I started to fall victim to a sickness known as boutique itis. I gained all my knowledge about Crook guitars and Dr Z amps (my first forray in to the boutique and high end world) from the Internet. From there it spiraled in to high end pedals that cost more than they should and several different boutique amps and custom shop guitars. Not once did a sales guy ever sell me anything that didn't include anything more than punching some buttons on a cash register.
There was one exception though. Back in 1978, I was 18. I was looking for a 12 string acoustic and the owner of a local music store talked me in to a Japanese make. Think it was called a Kasuga. I never had it long as it was stolen in a break-in. So maybe you win this argument. Out of the probably 6 figures plus I've spent in my lifetime on music gear a salesman did once super sell me a $400 guitar, which was a lot of money in 1978. And I probably paid twice what it was worth. Dam salesman.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

Geetarz said:


> Very well put guitarman2.
> Sorry Steve6D, gotta side yet again with guitarman2. I don't believe saving a buck isn't a big factor for buyers. Things like Kijiji, Craigslist and EBay would have died long ago if that were the case. I've never had a silver tongued snake sell me anything I didn't want and wasn't sure on. Much like guitarman2; they check me out at the cash and that's about it...they can save their stories for the teeny boppers...


Honestly, you guys sound like you've got a bit of a chip on your collective shoulder with repeated references to "teeny boppers". If you were treated poorly by a salesman somewhere, I could understand it. But you guys are coming across as a bit "holier than thou", intended or not...



> And no way for you to substantiate the opposite.


You want me to substantiate an argument I never made?

How's that work?



> And I believe you are wrong that a guy laying down $30K cash didn't want that $100K Steinway...and being the only place to get one, he got what he wanted...no selling necessary.


You're wrong. I watched as Kenm (the owner) showed the customer four or five different pianos before the customer decided on which one he wanted. And Lauzon is still listed on Steinway's site as a dealer; that was mentioned earlier...



> I'm fine with you believing salesmen run the world and people get sold things they otherwise wouldn't want Steve6D...obviously you're a salesmen.


I never made any such contention, so I'd appreciate you not lying about the position I've taken and what I actually _have _said, thanks. But I did spend a good portion of my adult life in sales and, as a result, I know what it takes to be a good one. And by "good one" I don't mean one who merely sells more dollar amount but, rather, someone who takes care of their customers. Selling someone something they wouldn't otherwise want is the mark of a bad salesman, simply because it shoots return business in the foot. Yes, quite often I had customers who knew exactly what they wanted when they came through the door. The number of those customers, though, is dwarfed by the number of customers who came in not knowing what they wanted.

As I said, you're the exception...


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> Steve6D. Maybe we're saying the same thing and just not connecting here. I agree that the salesmans worth comes in to the mid-low to low end stuff.


Why do you think that someone purchasing high-end gear doesn't need a salesman? Because _you _don't need a salesman? That's a tad egocentric, don't ya' think?

In November of 2012, I moved to Portland, Oregon and went to work for Portland Music Co. I worked at their acoustic-only store. There was no shortage of customers, with _thousands _to spend, who needed a salesperson's help when selecting a guitar. Money doesn't translate to knowledge...


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steve6D said:


> Why do you think that someone purchasing high-end gear doesn't need a salesman? Because _you _don't need a salesman? That's a tad egocentric, don't ya' think?


How is it egocentric to think I'm not special, an anomoly or unique?


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Steve6D said:


> Money doesn't translate to knowledge...


This. Not everyone has the time or interest to do tons of research on what they want. Some people want to walk into a store and say 'This is the kind of thing I'm looking for, this is the sound I like- what are my options?' and that's where I think good customer service comes in- providing the options and knowledge that the customer doesn't have. That doesn't mean 'pushing' something. It means giving the customer the benefit of product knowledge and providing suggestions that will fit the customers needs AND budget. Ultimately the customer is the one spending the money and making the decision. It's not about 'fooling' them into a purchase or selling them something other than what they need. Do that and you won't see that guy ever again.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> How is it egocentric to think I'm not special, an anomoly or unique?


That's not at all what I said.

You said you don't need a salesman. The egocentric part was when you essentially said that no one buying high-end gear; people like you, needs a salesman.

Your belief that you're not an anomaly in no way means you're not one. You are...


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

gtrguy said:


> This. Not everyone has the time or interest to do tons of research on what they want. Some people want to walk into a store and say 'This is the kind of thing I'm looking for, this is the sound I like- what are my options?' and that's where I think good customer service comes in- providing the options and knowledge that the customer doesn't have. That doesn't mean 'pushing' something. It means giving the customer the benefit of product knowledge and providing suggestions that will fit the customers needs AND budget. Ultimately the customer is the one spending the money and making the decision. It's not about 'fooling' them into a purchase or selling them something other than what they need. Do that and you won't see that guy ever again.


Exactly, and perfectly stated...


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## Geetarz (Jan 19, 2016)

Steve6D said:


> And Lauzon is still listed on Steinway's site as a dealer; that was mentioned earli


Nope. Just went through the hassle of filling out the needed information on the Steinway site and the only dealer listed is Steinway Ottawa, which is not Lauzon: Steinway & Sons Ottowa - Steinway & Sons - And here Steinway Piano Gallery Canada - they mention they "The Steinway Piano Gallery" group, are the exclusive representatives for the family of Steinway designed piano's in, among other places, Ottawa. Steinway Piano Gallery is owned by Tom Lee music and has zero association with Lauzon. And just for fun, here is Lauzon's piano section of their webpage: Lauzon Music | Ottawa Piano Store | Ottawa New & Used Pianos - not a mention of Steinway. Out front it used to say Steinway & Sons and now it say Pianos and Guitars. Inside it used to say it too I believe and now it appears to say Seiler and Wm. Knabe...so nope, nobody mentions Lauzon nowadays as a Steinway dealer....you're not selling me that.


Steve6D said:


> Yes, quite often I had customers who knew exactly what they wanted when they came through the door. The number of those customers, though, is dwarfed by the number of customers who came in not knowing what they wanted.


As guitarman2 stated, for entry level and some mid-range stuff, this may be the case. But I don't believe it for a second for high-end gear. I've been buying for more than 40yrs now and even worked in the biz, off and on over about a 20yr span before I got settled in something better for me. I don't recall EVER, witnessing or having a customer walk in to a salesman and say something like "I got $6K, $10K, $25K to spend on a guitar and gosh, I have no clue what to get. Nowhere even to start. Guide me oh wise salesman for I am lost without you" hogwash. 

I'm done with the merry-go-round. Really sorry to help derail this Davestp1. Really nice looking D41...glad someone was able to get you something you were happy with! Enjoy!!!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Geetarz said:


> I don't recall EVER, witnessing or having a customer walk in to a salesman and say something like "I got $6K, $10K, $25K to spend on a guitar and gosh, I have no clue what to get. Nowhere even to start. Guide me oh wise salesman for I am lost without you" hogwash.


Geez, when you lay it out like that it does sound kind of ridiculous.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

When I got back into guitar, I went back to the shop where I bought my first real guitar: The Arts in Newmarket. 

The place reminds me of my childhood (despite the newer location) and most of the staff know me by name. I was just there today, in fact.

Anyhow, I asked them, "what guitar is going to be the easiest for me to shred on". Shockingly, they directed me to an Ernie Ball Luke. Man, were they right. I would have totally went for the cheaper Ibanez gits, if I was left alone.

I don't know how that fits into the argument, but I NEED HELP!!!


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

Geetarz said:


> Nope. Just went through the hassle of filling out the needed information on the Steinway site and the only dealer listed is Steinway Ottawa, which is not Lauzon: Steinway & Sons Ottowa - Steinway & Sons - And here Steinway Piano Gallery Canada - they mention they "The Steinway Piano Gallery" group, are the exclusive representatives for the family of Steinway designed piano's in, among other places, Ottawa. Steinway Piano Gallery is owned by Tom Lee music and has zero association with Lauzon. And just for fun, here is Lauzon's piano section of their webpage: Lauzon Music | Ottawa Piano Store | Ottawa New & Used Pianos - not a mention of Steinway. Out front it used to say Steinway & Sons and now it say Pianos and Guitars. Inside it used to say it too I believe and now it appears to say Seiler and Wm. Knabe...so nope, nobody mentions Lauzon nowadays as a Steinway dealer....you're not selling me that.


Hmmm... Not sure what site I looked at; I thought it was Steinway's. Definitely saw something making an association between the two...



> As guitarman2 stated, for entry level and some mid-range stuff, this may be the case. But I don't believe it for a second for high-end gear. I've been buying for more than 40yrs now and even worked in the biz, off and on over about a 20yr span before I got settled in something better for me. I don't recall EVER, witnessing or having a customer walk in to a salesman and say something like "I got $6K, $10K, $25K to spend on a guitar and gosh, I have no clue what to get. Nowhere even to start. Guide me oh wise salesman for I am lost without you" hogwash.


And, if you can show me where I've ever made such a ridiculous argument, I'll buy you a house.

I've never had anyone come in and say anything like that. People always have sort of idea as to what they want. But if someone comes in and tells me they want "the last guitar they'll ever have to buy" (I've lost count of how many times I've heard that) it's up to the salesman to help him. Chances are the customer isn't going to know the little intricacies of different brands. While I customer may decide that one guitar sounds preferable to another, he may not know why. He may not know about responsibly sourced materials. He may not know about various bracing patterns or how different woods impact the sound of a guitar. That's where the salesman comes in.

If what you're saying was true, events like the Taylor Road Show and Find Your Fit wouldn't exist, nor those events of other companies which produce high-end guitars. Then again, you strike me as the kind of guy who shows up to those events (there's always one guy like you in the crowd) who asks questions in some gallant effort to prove you know more than the Rep giving the presentation. I was at a Road Show in Daytona a few weeks back, and there was this know-it-all chucklehead who kept trying to trip up the Rep on minutiae. He failed. What's more, the Rep ended up spending about a half hour with this guy after the show, explaining differences in guitars, how they're made, etc. The guy dropped $3,800.00 on a guitar that night, and that was $3,800.00 he likely wouldn't have spent on a Taylor had he been left to his own devices. He said he'd been considering other brands, which he also demoed that night, but he really didn't seem to know much about any of them.



> I'm done with the merry-go-round. Really sorry to help derail this Davestp1. Really nice looking D41...glad someone was able to get you something you were happy with! Enjoy!!!


Indeed...


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

adcandour said:


> When I got back into guitar, I went back to the shop where I bought my first real guitar: The Arts in Newmarket.
> 
> The place reminds me of my childhood (despite the newer location) and most of the staff know me by name. I was just there today, in fact.
> 
> ...


Another great shop; one of the few "must visit" shops I had when I found myself in the GTA.

And your example proves my point...


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> Geez, when you lay it out like that it does sound kind of ridiculous.


Of course it does.

Then again, I don't know where that's ever happened...


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I've never paid more to buy from a knowledgeable salesman than I would buying from a clerk. Why you'd want to deal with a clerk and not a knowledgeable salesman is beyond me. 

Sure I do research on my own. I go in armed. But I don't think I know everything - I'm still willing to take a knowledgeable salesman's input and add that to my knowledge. I think I'm happier going this route, with less buyer remorse. 

Go it alone if you want, do all the work and the let guy 'clerk' you out the door. Maybe you win that way. I still want any advice I can get (and I think I can filter the useful from the useless). AND I want a relationship with the store if possible. Knowing the guys, and having them know me, has paid dividends way past 'I got an extra $20 off'. YMMV.


And congrats on the new guitar, Dave. Looks Fab-U-Lous!


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

High/Deaf said:


> I've never paid more to buy from a knowledgeable salesman than I would buying from a clerk. Why you'd want to deal with a clerk and not a knowledgeable salesman is beyond me.
> 
> Sure I do research on my own. I go in armed. But I don't think I know everything - I'm still willing to take a knowledgeable salesman's input and add that to my knowledge. I think I'm happier going this route, with less buyer remorse.
> 
> ...


Building that relationship can be key to getting those 'Hey, you'll never guess what we just got in!' phone calls, or the 'Want to see a really nice vintage Martin?'... you are of course free to treat your local (or not local) store like Walmart or Amazon but it's not my preferred way of doing business. This isn't to say that I go looking to pay a premium but there are advantages to dealing with a store that go beyond simply price- the examples I mentioned above, after sales service should any issues arise, etc.

Having said that, I would never buy a high end acoustic guitar that I couldn't have in my hands and play first. There's simply too much variability (even at the top end) between instruments for me to be comfortable buying something I haven't played personally. I like exceptional guitars and they simply aren't all exceptional.

I get the feeling that some people view a salesperson as an opponent- someone who is trying to milk you for all they can. If that's the kind of salespeople you've dealt with in the past, that sucks and you've been missing out. It can be a mutually beneficial, friendly relationship. I personally haven't encountered much of that in the music stores I've shopped (and worked) in but I've run into it in other arenas- usually big box stores and car dealerships. In my opinion those are the places that really don't give a shit about whether you are a repeat customer or not and aren't looking past what they can sell you right this minute. There are probably exceptions even in those places I guess.


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## harrym (Jan 19, 2010)

I bought a new HD28 in 2011 for $2500 all in.


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## KeyserSoze (Jan 8, 2015)

EDIT: missed a page and comment was out of context :/


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