# Hockey Violence too much or ok?



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

This is a topic I feel strongly about, but clearly it's a polarizing one.

I think fighting should be totally eliminated from Hockey at all levels. It should be treated no differently than a street fight.

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/20...3-hockey-game-between-woodstock-and-brantford


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I disagree. If I simply utter a threat to someone on the street I could be charged with assault. If you introduce this in to professional sports I think it would create an utter mess. I say put the pressure on the sports organizations to clean this up. Of course I'm not including extreme cases that go above what normally happens in sports. If someone purposely takes a hockey stick and cracks someone over the head with it, this needs to be investigated. But if you're talking about 2 individuals going at it then no.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Whether on the street or on the ice, fist fights are the stupidest possible reaction to anything. When lame insults or even dirty play results in the someone thinking the only recourse is violence obviously didn't learn what they needed to learn in kindergarten. If you have to fight to defend yourself, fight like a goon, but starting a fight is an indication of low mentality and immaturity. Unfortunately, the spectacle of a hockey fight appeals to the hillbillies in the crowd who readily cheer and jeer the fighters. Personally, I jump at the opportunity to get a snack before play resumes.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> This is a topic I feel strongly about, but clearly it's a polarizing one.
> 
> I think fighting should be totally eliminated from Hockey at all levels. It should be treated no differently than a street fight.
> 
> http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/20...3-hockey-game-between-woodstock-and-brantford


I can't think of any other sport that tolerates fisticuffs between participants without a heavy penalty.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> I disagree. If I simply utter a threat to someone on the street I could be charged with assault. If you introduce this in to professional sports I think it would create an utter mess. I say put the pressure on the sports organizations to clean this up. Of course I'm not including extreme cases that go above what normally happens in sports. If someone purposely takes a hockey stick and cracks someone over the head with it, this needs to be investigated. But if you're talking about 2 individuals going at it then no.


What if one of those guys wants to play hockey and the other wants to punch his teeth out?

I'm not proposing that verbal chirping (within reason) brings charges, but the second the gloves come off, it should be stopped. If a punch is thrown, charges.

I don't expect many to agree with me, but when they start that crap, it ruins the game for me.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

hardasmum said:


> I can't think of any other sport that tolerates fisticuffs between participants without a heavy penalty.



This is definitely the problem. Although I don't think that most fights in hockey need to be dealt with by the courts, I do believe that the hockey organizations need to deal with them with harsher penalties. In the case of the Brantford/Woodstock incident if this was the players first offence it should have been met with a 1 year ban from hockey. Next offence would be life time.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

Fighting is a sport of its own and has a legitimate place in hockey. it makes the other team think twice about playing dirty when they know they're gonna get beat up if they do. hockey fights are only ever consensual. if you don't want to fight you skate away. nobody gets badly hurt in a hockey fight. even mid fight, if you're outmatched you grapple. it's incredibly hard to punch someone who's holding your sleeves. either that or turtle. worst case scenario there are 8 players and 4 refs waiting to jump in if things get out of hand.

if i wanted a non violent hockey experience i'd watch women's hockey.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> What if one of those guys wants to play hockey and the other wants to punch his teeth out?
> 
> I'm not proposing that verbal chirping (within reason) brings charges, but the second the gloves come off, it should be stopped. If a punch is thrown, charges.
> 
> I don't expect many to agree with me, but when they start that crap, it ruins the game for me.


It will be a tough road to take fighting out of the game for 2 willing participants. I remember years ago when fighting was a 2 minute minor. They then upped it to a 5 minute major. Maybe it's time it needs to have the 2 fighters instantly tossed. Of course that wouldn't stop a goon from trying to goad a better player in to a fight to get the better player tossed. Of course if the refs can use some discretion and pick up on that they could just toss the instigator.
I really have no issue with 2 willing goons going at it to try and spark their teams. But for a big player to go after an unwilling player that is no match, well that's just bullying and I hate that in any aspect of life. 
Yeah maybe I'm just a hillbilly that enjoys the odd good NHL tilt as I have since 1965 but so be it. I'm a hillbilly.
I remember back in the 60's, 70's, being a big bruins fan, watching the original 6 then the first 6 expansion. They used to regularly have bench clearing brawls. Even though we were raised on fighting in the NHL it really got monotonous. I was glad they managed to eradicate that from the game as it was very distracting. I like how fast the NHL as gotten and really if fighting were to disappear I wouldn't miss it. But I'm one of those old fashioned gladiators that believes we need a little intimidation in the wings to keep little rink rats like Marchand in step.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

mike_oxbig said:


> if i wanted a non violent hockey experience i'd watch women's hockey.


Even with out the fighting there is way more reasons to watch mens hockey over womens hockey.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Actually I love watching olympic women's hockey. it's so much more about puck handling and skating than about pounding the other team into submission.

I have nothing against a good solid check. I draw the line when supposed professional athletes act like thugs in a bar.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> It will be a tough road to take fighting out of the game for 2 willing participants. I remember years ago when fighting was a 2 minute minor. They then upped it to a 5 minute major. Maybe it's time it needs to have the 2 fighters instantly tossed. Of course that wouldn't stop a goon from trying to goad a better player in to a fight to get the better player tossed. Of course if the refs can use some discretion and pick up on that they could just toss the instigator.
> I really have no issue with 2 willing goons going at it to try and spark their teams. But for a big player to go after an unwilling player that is no match, well that's just bullying and I hate that in any aspect of life.
> Yeah maybe I'm just a hillbilly that enjoys the odd good NHL tilt as I have since 1965 but so be it. I'm a hillbilly.
> I remember back in the 60's, 70's, being a big bruins fan, watching the original 6 then the first 6 expansion. They used to regularly have bench clearing brawls. Even though we were raised on fighting in the NHL it really got monotonous. I was glad they managed to eradicate that from the game as it was very distracting. I like how fast the NHL as gotten and really if fighting were to disappear I wouldn't miss it. But I'm one of those old fashioned gladiators that believes we need a little intimidation in the wings to keep little rink rats like Marchand in step.


I won't be one to call anyone a hillbilly. I knew when I started the thread that I might be in the minority.

I suppose for some it's almost a battle. People use terms like honor and standing up for yourself. I see no honor in resorting to violence.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Ha ha, I didn't mean to disparage hillbillies!! No, what I meant was the type of fan who goes to car races to see crashes. I see hockey as a fast, hard-hitting game of endurance and strategy. If I want to see a fight, I will go to a good boxing match.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Actually I love watching olympic women's hockey. it's so much more about puck handling and skating than about pounding the other team into submission.
> 
> I have nothing against a good solid check. I draw the line when supposed professional athletes act like thugs in a bar.


Mens Olympic hockey, world juniors, etc. There is lots of mens hockey that doesn't have much if any fighting. Womens hockey (or womens golf) just does not have the skill and speed of mens sports. I just get bored watching it. If it were as exciting to watch womens hockey they'd be able to make a living at it.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

bluzfish said:


> Ha ha, I didn't mean to disparage hillbillies!! No, what I meant was the type of fan who goes to car races to see crashes. I see hockey as a fast, hard-hitting game of endurance and strategy. If I want to see a fight, I will go to a good boxing match.


Like I said. I admit to enjoying the odd tilt. Good fights usually come from passionate play that gets a little out of hand. I picture 2 players mixing it up in play competing for that puck, they each get in the others face a bit too much and end up in a fight. The type of fights I wish would disappear are those dam staged fights. Where the 2 players know well ahead of time they are going to go at it and as soon as the puck drops they drop the gloves. This is just plain stupid. There should be an extra penalty tacked on for delay of game. Planning a fight. First degree fighting major or something.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

I can agree that the passion and energy on the ice can lead to tempers flaring, resulting in a fight. But I also agree that staged fights are kind of too obvious to take seriously and they only delay the game (which can be a kind of strategy, I suppose). I think that fights that will inevitably occur in the heat of the moment, should be far and few between like in the Junior World tournaments. Now THAT is great hockey.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Mens Olympic hockey, world juniors, etc. There is lots of mens hockey that doesn't have much if any fighting. Womens hockey (or womens golf) just does not have the skill and speed of mens sports. I just get bored watching it. If it were as exciting to watch womens hockey they'd be able to make a living at it.


A matter of opinion I suppose. Personally I can't watch more than five minutes of an NBA game but obviously many find it exciting.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> A matter of opinion I suppose. Personally I can't watch more than five minutes of an NBA game but obviously many find it exciting.


No I've never been in to basketball either. Its like watching hockey with out goalies.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

There have been at least two deaths in the NHL that I know of that were caused by violence in hockey. The result? Both were acquitted because it was in a hockey game. I am quite sure the two murdered men would not have agreed on the outcome. Neither would they say that it's okay to get killed or maimed because of hockey violence.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

The trick to watching basketball is to ignore the first 3 quarters... The trick to watching soccer is to tape the game and then watch it on fast forward to make it more like hockey... The trick to watching baseball is to be sure you have someone interesting to talk to during the game... I guess the good old hockey game IS still the best game I can name...


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Hockey is the only professional team sport where players who fight get to stay in the game. If they changed this you would see a lot fewer fights. I have also proposed a system where any player who finishes the season with more penalty minutes than ice-time minutes (or a suitable fraction of their ice time minutes) gets a team fine of, say, a million dollars, thus effectively adding a million dollars to the cost of keeping a pure goon on your team.

I don't mind the "real" fights nearly as much as the staged ones, but hockey is a better game without any fighting at all.

(FWIW, I have grown to love basketball over the last few years.)


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Actually I love watching olympic women's hockey. it's so much more about puck handling and skating than about pounding the other team into submission.
> 
> I have nothing against a good solid check. I draw the line when supposed professional athletes act like thugs in a bar.


I don't know that it has to be banned, but it is silly at best most of the time.
And often worse.

I do enjoy watching the Women's Olympic hockey games as well--they're getting better--even though Canada and the US mostly breeze through, the competition is improving


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Steadfastly, please give us a source on an act of violence causing a death to an NHLer. Bill Masterson was checked and fell and broke his head, the only on-ice death in the history of the NHL. He was not involved in a fight at the time.

Guitarman2, are you a centenarian? Fighting, at least in the NHL, has been a 5 minute penalty since 1922 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_in_ice_hockey

I think there is a place for it in the NHL game, personally.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

My problem is that there's too much skating between fights!

Seriously though, there has been a correlation between fighting and premature deaths of those that were fighters.
Whether it's a post concussion syndrome, or just having to deal with that role day to day.

I forget who I saw interviewed about it, it was a former goon.
They stated that they were really stressed before a game, 
because they know what they were in for when it started.
Not the greatest way to make a living, imo.

Admittedly, when it's a fast, end to end game with no fighting, I don't even miss it.
The best hockey is in the playoffs and the deeper into the playoffs you get,
the less fighting there is, in any game.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

keto said:


> Steadfastly, please give us a source on an act of violence causing a death to an NHLer. Bill Masterson was checked and fell and broke his head, the only on-ice death in the history of the NHL. He was not involved in a fight at the time.
> 
> Guitarman2, are you a centenarian? Fighting, at least in the NHL, has been a 5 minute penalty since 1922 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_in_ice_hockey
> 
> I think there is a place for it in the NHL game, personally.


I could have swore that fighting was 2 minutes each when I was a kid.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Reasons to not like fighting in hockey:

1) People DO get hurt.

2) It distracts away from the game, and turns it into a different sport.

3) It sets a bad example for youth.

4) It reduces the likelihood that stickhandling, passing, and all the traditional hockey skills play as vital a role.

5) It makes the penalties that DO get handed out for other infractions seem less valid (If I trip you with my stick, I get a penalty, but if I punch you in the face repeatedly I get nothing?)

The poll, however, asks if hockey fights should be treated as _*assaults*_, and lists "Cheap shots and chippy play are a bigger problem" as a choice. I suspect that many fights emerge _out of _cheap shots and chippy play, whether discrete events or a succession over a game or series of games. Few would simply start a fight without any precursor, and even when they seem to, it is often the _presumption_ of a "yet another" cheap shot that precipitates gloves-off. 

Having said that, there is a difference between something being an interpersonal crime, and being a pox on the game. Insomuch as players are put in circumstances where they are provoked, and where there is the presumption of a referee's and teammates' presence to tone things down before they go too far, I'm not sure that "assault" charges are warranted...unless such intervention is applied but ignored completely and injury results.

In a sense it is not unlike NASCAR races where the intent is not to deliberately smash into other cars (i.e., not a demolition derby), but if a couple vehicles collide, the cops aren't going to show up, take names, and press charges.

But again, the absence of assault charges in all but the most clearcut cases does not mean the league (senior mgmt, coaches, referrees, etc.) should not do everything in its power to demonstrate little tolerance for such displays. That includes not only the fights, but the cheap shots that precipitate them. Checking is fine, but not the cheap shots.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> I could have swore that fighting was 2 minutes each when I was a kid.



There's a band called Five for Fighting that was named after the hockey penalty. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_for_Fighting


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

sulphur said:


> My problem is that there's too much skating between fights!
> 
> Seriously though, there has been a correlation between fighting and premature deaths of those that were fighters.
> Whether it's a post concussion syndrome, or just having to deal with that role day to day.
> ...



Concussion damage is more from the nature of the game in checking, collisions, etc. Pat Lafontaine, Brett lindros retired due to concussion trouble and neither were fighters. Then theres the recent trouble that Sid Crosby has had who is also not a fighter. 
I doubt the recent deaths of fighters like Bob Probert or Derek Boogard are related to punches to the head. I'm sure they don't sustain nearly as much trauma as a boxer or UFC fighter.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Reasons to not like fighting in hockey:
> 
> 1) People DO get hurt.


More players are hurt due to non fighting incidents



mhammer said:


> 2) It distracts away from the game, and turns it into a different sport.


How is it a different game when fighting has been a part of the game from the very start?



mhammer said:


> 3) It sets a bad example for youth.


I agree



mhammer said:


> 4) It reduces the likelihood that stickhandling, passing, and all the traditional hockey skills play as vital a role.


Due to rule changes in the past I think that hockey skills have increased. This is due to the eradication of clutching and grabbing which had a far greater impact in suppressing skilled players.



mhammer said:


> 5) It makes the penalties that DO get handed out for other infractions seem less valid (If I trip you with my stick, I get a penalty, but if I punch you in the face repeatedly I get nothing?)


I don't understand this point. There is a penalty for tripping and a penalty for punching someone in the face. Sometimes trips go unpunished and sometimes you might get a punch or 2 in with out a call.

[/QUOTE]


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

I went to a fight last night and a hockey game broke out...


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

I bet the majority of the people saying fighting doesn't have a place in hockey have never picked up a stick and actually played the game. I have and played from the age of 5 to 40. Fighting keeps everything in check, it holds people accountable for their actions on the ice. People can say penalties do that too but they truly don't. Fighting makes the AVERAGE player, meaning 80% of a league think twice about taking that big hit that could hurt someone or intentionally try to hurt someone with a cross check or high stick. I was a fighter, meaning 5% of the league. It was something I had to do to protect my teammates. When you play in a league the fighters know who each other are. You don't go and fight with another teams star players, the other 15% of the league. You fight the 5% and occasionally someone from the 80% group that needs to be put back in check. When you fight with someone from the 80% group and they say that's it they are done the fight is over. You stop and give them that respect because they have learned their lesson not to do what they did to warrant having to fight me. If fighting was taken out of the game it would turn into a bunch of Brad Marchant's and Patrick Kalata's running around like idiots trying to hurt anyone that they can hit. The game would turn into a bloody mess with people being taken off the ice on stretchers every other game. The pace would be so slow that people would lose interest and eventually start watching seniors lawn bowling, just for the excitement. All the people that think the game would become faster and more enjoyable really don't have a clue what they are talking about. Todays NHL is the best its ever been. It's a fast pace game with tons of skill players playing making incredible plays and keeping fans on the edge of their seats game after game. Then there are the players like I used to be, getting our occasional shift but for the most part watching the game on the bench making sure everything stays that way.

For all you anti hockey fight supporters answer me this, is the game a better place with Patrick Kaleta in it or with Shawn Thorton in it?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> I don't understand this point. There is a penalty for tripping and a penalty for punching someone in the face. Sometimes trips go unpunished and sometimes you might get a punch or 2 in with out a call.


I don't watch a ton of hockey, but I do see tripping penalties called that, to my eyes, were a product of neglect and not intentional. In contrast, I cannot imagine a fight that is unintentional, and I see plenty that erupt and go on at length with little done to stop them, even IF there may be 2 minutes on the bench as a result. In general, I just find that many of the penalties that do get called are for actions that were negligent, and not deliberate. We distinguish in law between that which was done deliberately, and that which was a byproduct of negligence. Why do we not do so on the ice?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

TA462 said:


> I bet the majority of the people saying fighting doesn't have a place in hockey have never picked up a stick and actually played the game. I have and played from the age of 5 to 40. Fighting keeps everything in check, it holds people accountable for their actions on the ice. People can say penalties do that too but they truly don't. Fighting makes the AVERAGE player, meaning 80% of a league think twice about taking that big hit that could hurt someone or intentionally try to hurt someone with a cross check or high stick. I was a fighter, meaning 5% of the league. It was something I had to do to protect my teammates. When you play in a league the fighters know who each other are. You don't go and fight with another teams star players, the other 15% of the league. You fight the 5% and occasionally someone from the 80% group that needs to be put back in check. When you fight with someone from the 80% group and they say that's it they are done the fight is over. You stop and give them that respect because they have learned their lesson not to do what they did to warrant having to fight me. If fighting was taken out of the game it would turn into a bunch of Brad Marchant's and Patrick Kalata's running around like idiots trying to hurt anyone that they can hit. The game would turn into a bloody mess with people being taken off the ice every other game. The pace would be so slow that people would lose interest and eventually start watching seniors lawn bowling, just for the excitement. All the people that think the game would become faster and more enjoyable really don't have a clue what they are talking about. Todays NHL is the best its ever been. It's a fast pace game with tons of skill players playing making incredible plays and keeping fans on the edge of their seats game after game. Then there are the players like I used to be, getting our occasional shift but for the most part watching the game on the bench making sure everything stays that way.
> 
> For all you anti hockey fight supporters answer me this, is the game a better place with Patrick Kaleta in it or with Shawn Thorton in it?


Again, I go back to the suggestion that maybe cheap shots ARE the problem. No cheap shots = no reason to fight. It's certainly not mere competition and pressure that ignites things.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Without fighters there would be cheap shots, you didn't answer my question. Remember one thing, with out cheap shots there would be no fights.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

UFC and boxing do use gloves.

Yes, other players get concussions too,
but they don't get their heads rattled on a regular occasion as a fighter would.

At least three recent suicides of former enforcers would lead me to believe that there's more to the story.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Fights as a "remedy" for cheap shots is more a reflection of general league tolerance of cheap shots, than a reflection of what is_ necessary _to the game. One does see fights in other team sports, like football, basketball, soccer, and baseball, but not to the same extent I think.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

What I find really sad is watching kids coming up with minimal talent but trying to get into the NHL on an enforcer role. It's sad that there is that role to fill, if not these kids would just be overlooked based on hockey talent and some other kid might get to keep his teeth. I remember years ago when we used to go over to see the Sabres now and again, the Leafs were in town and after the game we went to a bar where we knew a lot of the players would go. Half the Leafs were in there and they were in little groups all over the place except for Dave Semenko. He sat alone in a corner and nobody went anywhere near him. As mentioned above, the way the game is played there is that role. To win and survive the way the game is set up and under the current rules format the enforcer role is required. I am not a die hard hockey fan but I know tons of them, I have asked a lot of them about the fighting. Every single one of them says it MUST stay part of the game.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

mhammer said:


> Fights as a "remedy" for cheap shots is more a reflection of general league tolerance of cheap shots, than a reflection of what is_ necessary _to the game. One does see fights in other team sports, like football, basketball, soccer, and baseball, but not to the same extent I think.


That's not true, the NHL wants to get rid of cheap shots. The players don't want it, the GM's don't want it and the fans don't want it. They don't serve a purpose. Yes there are fights in other sports too and they are usually caused because of a cheap shot. The difference is the hockey fighters take care of it one on one while in other leagues you see bench clearing brawls.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

TA462 said:


> I bet the majority of the people saying fighting doesn't have a place in hockey have never picked up a stick and actually played the game. I have and played from the age of 5 to 40. Fighting keeps everything in check, it holds people accountable for their actions on the ice.
> 
> The game would turn into a bloody mess with people being taken off the ice on stretchers every other game.


1. Although I did play hockey for several years, I can't accept that as a reasonable argument. It doesn't take a hockey player to know whether fighting is acceptable ot not.

I don't fight in bars or on the street but I understand that it's unacceptable and stupid.

2. I think multi game suspensions for dirty play is a much more effective countermeasure than sending a goon out to pound somebody out.

3. I disagree about the game becoming slower, in fact if not for all the nonsense stopping play and interrupting the game, not to mention how many brilliant skaters say F$#k this and bail on hockey altogether is slowing things down much more IMO.

As I expected most people either enjoy or at least condone fighting or believe that it's not the big issue. I accept that.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

TA462 said:


> That's not true, the NHL wants to get rid of cheap shots. The players don't want it, the GM's don't want it and the fans don't want it. They don't serve a purpose. Yes there are fights in other sports too and they are usually caused because of a cheap shot. The difference is the hockey fighters take care of it one on one while in other leagues you see bench clearing brawls.


You have to consider the fact that in most other sports they "don't know how" to fight. That's because there is no training involved. It's not part of the game. So when it does occur in say Baseball or Football or Soccer it's almost laughable because it may be the first fist fight these people have ever been in. You see wild shots going nowhere. Most of them usually pretend they are going to go at it and are just waiting for the rest of the guys t get over there and break it up. Typically in the NHL you see two "fighters" going at it. I am a firm believer that what you get out of sports is what the fan wants. Rule changes, outside of those implemented for safety alone, are usually driven by fan response. It's a business, same as any other. You need to keep the customer happy or they wont come back.

I played football all through school and on a city team for several years and I had guys try to gouge my eyes out, bash my head in on the line, go after my knees but I never seen a fist fight ever in all those years. Never seen helmets come off on the field in anger. It's just not part of the game. It's not talked about in the stands and its not talked about in the locker room or on the field by the coaches or players. Dirty play is settled by brute force. Put a guy on his ass.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

The majority of NHL players don't know how to fight either, no coach has ever taught a player how to fight. You either have it in you or you don't. 
[h=4]Regular Season Stats[/h]

SeasonGamesFights*Fights Per
GameGames
With Fights% of Games
With FightsGames With
More Than
One Fight# of players
who fought**2012-13+7203470.4826436.67%66-2012-137203470.4826436.67%662452011-1212305460.4442334.39%983212010-1112306450.5245837.24%1173482009-1012307140.5849340.08%1713412008-0912307340.6050941.38%1733552007-0812306640.5447338.46%1433242006-0712304970.4038431.22%872922005-0612304660.3835729.02%802762003-0412307890.6450641.14%1723402002-0312306680.5446437.72%1393212001-0212308030.6551942.20%1723482000-0112306840.5646938.13%155329


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

TA462 said:


> The majority of NHL players don't know how to fight either, no coach has ever taught a player how to fight. You either have it in you or you don't.
> *Regular Season Stats*
> 
> 
> ...




That goes without saying. BTW, those stats are disturbing


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

I thought those stats were kind of interesting. Disturbing? I guess that depends on what side of the fence your on.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

What was special about the 2005-2006 season? Or was it simply normal variation that looks conspicuous here because we don't have stats from the previous 20 seasons? I don't follow this stuff closely enough to know how to interpret it.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

TA462 said:


> I thought those stats were kind of interesting. Disturbing? I guess that depends on what side of the fence your on.


Like I said. Sports are driven by the fans. It's a business. As a business owner you are there to make money. As a league, they know what the fans want and keeping them happy keeps them spending money. It's business 101. I am sure you have been to hockey games. When two players drop their gloves the place erupts. Everyone is on their feet screaming. Pretty easy to see what they like. Therefore it stays in the game. The owners and league understand fully what would happen of they banned it. As Spock would say "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one" It's why hockey is probably number 4 on my list of sports behind Football, F1, Indy Cars and Baseball. That's just me, I am not telling anyone else what to watch or follow. I also find UFC to be repulsive. I am sure many would say I am crazy. I like physical sports, that's why I love football. It's a man's game and it's won in the trenches, on the line by brute force. Australian Rules football and Rugby are some tough games as well. But no fist fights


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> No I've never been in to basketball either. Its like watching hockey with out goalies.


LMAO

A comparison I've made may times. In any game where the score ends uo 119 to 114 or similar, how hard can it be to score?


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

TA462 said:


> Without fighters there would be cheap shots, you didn't answer my question. Remember one thing, with out cheap shots there would be no fights.


So why not eliminate the cheap shots? Sending out "enforcers" is similar to the gun lovers wanting more guns to combat crime IMO.


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Milkman said:


> LMAO
> 
> A comparison I've made may times. In any game where the score ends uo 119 to 114 or similar, how hard can it be to score?


For years I tried to watch the NBA. I just could never get into it. Then a few years back I made an effort to watch pretty much an entire season, basically all the televised Raptors games and I finally got it. I understand the game now. Like all sports it has its coaching aspect. Match-ups in basketball are huge. I never knew that there were actual defensive schemes either. But there are, lot's of them. It's a game where you really have to understand the why's and when's to enjoy it. I never took the time to learn it therefore when I tried to watch it I was totally confused and bored. There are fast guys and slow guys and three point shooters and post players and yes, enforcers. I never knew any of that. I thought they all had the same skills and were just running around trying to get the ball in the basket


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> For years I tried to watch the NBA. I just could never get into it. Then a few years back I made an effort to watch pretty much an entire season, basically all the televised Raptors games and I finally got it. I understand the game now. Like all sports it has its coaching aspect. Match-ups in basketball are huge. I never knew that there were actual defensive schemes either. But there are, lot's of them. It's a game where you really have to understand the why's and when's to enjoy it. I never took the time to learn it therefore when I tried to watch it I was totally confused and bored.


It may be an acquired taste. I understand the game. I've played it in school.

It's just back and forth. There's strategy in Tennis too but.....

I think they should add goalies in basketball and golf. Actually I'd like to see them combine paintball and golf. That would definitely speed up the game.


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Milkman said:


> It may be an acquired taste. I understand the game. I've played it in school.
> 
> It's just back and forth. There's strategy in Tennis too but.....
> 
> I think they should add goalies in basketball and golf. Actually I'd like to see them combine paintball and golf. That would definitely speed up the game.



For sure an acquired taste. For me, Baseball is like that as well. NBA and MLB I find I really enjoy following a team vs the sport. So I rarely watch a game where my team is not playing. Unlike football where I will watch anyone. I need to be watching the Raptors and the LAA's to keep my interest at peek levels. So it becomes a thing where you are really following that group of players.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Boy, THAT'D change the TV annoucing of the sport! Maybe even Jesse Ventura could give colour commentary on the Masters.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

nkjanssen said:


> I'd like to see full body contact in golf. None of this "taking turns" stuff. Everyone goes at once. First in the hole wins.
> 
> I'd be OK with fighting in golf too.


Well if it's acceptable behavior in hockey, why not in golf?

"The Price is Wrong Bi#%h".


----------



## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

I find it interesting when it is suggested that "fighting" is a part of hockey. Perhaps it's part of the "Canadian" version of the game. I don't see fighting as an integral part of the Scandinavian or Eastern European style of hockey. If anything they are known for their speed and passing. 

A few years ago when they replayed the 1972 Summit Series between Canada and the Soviet Union in its entirety, I must admit I felt a little embarrassed. In what is perhaps the most quintessential moment in the history of Canadian Hockey I feel we came off as a bunch of thugs.

I know it's argued that the Officials were making bad calls and that the Soviets were keeping the Canadian players up all night with phone calls to their rooms but at the end of the day we should have stuck to playing the game and not resorted to taking swings at the Referee and Soviet players.


----------



## doriangrey (Mar 29, 2011)

Milkman said:


> This is a topic I feel strongly about, but clearly it's a polarizing one.
> 
> I think fighting should be totally eliminated from Hockey at all levels.


I agree completely - it is an embarrassment to the sport and it sends a horrible message to our children...I also think it's embarrassing and disgusting when people cheer in the stands at a hockey game when a fight breaks out...there are kids in the audience and the people around them are cheering because two people on the ice are punching each other in the face...it is a horrible message to send to our children


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

doriangrey said:


> I agree completely - it is an embarrassment to the sport and it sends a horrible message to our children...I also think it's embarrassing and disgusting when people cheer in the stands at a hockey game when a fight breaks out...there are kids in the audience and the people around them are cheering because two people on the ice are punching each other in the face...it is a horrible message to send to our children


Well, that's definitely another strong argument for eliminating fighting and yes, in my opinion it sends a terrible message to our kids about wrong and right.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

hardasmum said:


> I find it interesting when it is suggested that "fighting" is a part of hockey. Perhaps it's part of the "Canadian" version of the game. I don't see fighting as an integral part of the Scandinavian or Eastern European style of hockey. If anything they are known for their speed and passing.



Are you trying to imply that enforcers are only Canadian? And if its just us Canadians that are the thugs how come the best player in the world right now is Canadian. The best player that ever lived is Canadian. (I think its Bobby Orr, most would argue Gretzky, whatever they're both Canadian). I guess you shouldn't generalize. Not all us Canadians are thugs.


----------



## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> hardasmum said:
> 
> 
> > I find it interesting when it is suggested that "fighting" is a part of hockey. Perhaps it's part of the "Canadian" version of the game. I don't see fighting as an integral part of the Scandinavian or Eastern European style of hockey. If anything they are known for their speed and passing.
> ...


Nope. I am hypothesizing that fighting is an element of the game that Canadians introduced to the world of hockey.

I'm Canadian by the way, was playing organized hockey by the age of five. I would be calling myself a thug too had I been generalizing "all Canadians".


----------



## Percy (Feb 18, 2013)

If fighting was banned in hockey stick work would rule........There is no other sport where players carry a big stick,wear pads and fly around at speeds of 30k......banning fighting from hockey will not only increase injury[due to sticks to the head and elsewhere]but will also make the game that Canadians know just another whimp fest American game.......Canada is known for two things,the best and toughest hockey players and the best and toughest soldiers,just ask the German Generals of WW11........


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## puckhead (Sep 8, 2008)

might as well drop my thoughts in here from another board ...... pardon the language.


the kid who snowed the goalie deserved a shot for being a complete dickhead
winning 7-2 late in the game and you pull shit like that? I'd fight you as well.
at the very least, you'd get a solid slash across the ankle and a gloved punch, and see where it goes from there.

other areas of blame
- referees for letting the game get out of hand. though the refs are probably teenagers themselves.
- his teammate (#5) for standing by and watching him get pummelled
- the kid himself for not fighting back, or even protecting himself. wtf?
- the dad for not teaching him to protect himself and/or spawning a kid too stupid to think to get his hands up

~Don Cherry hat on~
it is the ability of the players to kick the shit out of assholes that keep the assholes from taking over
example - I'm guessing that guy has not snowed a goalie since, nor will again. 
he now knows that he does not get immunity for acting like a dick. that's an important lesson (in hockey and in life).
a 2 minute penalty will have zero deterrent value in a game that is out of reach. Knowing the other team can and will react if you step out of line does carry weight.


----------



## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

My 2 cents from having played the game (for a considerable part of my youth) as well as football and rugby during high school.

I played a very physical style of play while not a big guy (5'8 170lb) I claimed more bones with body checks then fights.
I had a few tussles over the years but don't really like getting punched in the face. Big checks and the resulting head bouncing off the ice is more of a concern in the NHL than fighting. Checking is not going anywhere so to keep cheapshot artists in line it is good practice to have some muscle. 
Staged fighting while I still enjoy it may be turning the softies away and could probably go but it sometimes has a very profound momentum swing for the team which makes for more exciting play. 

About the video
He's playing competitive hockey, not house league. I think these guys were 16. My cousin is playing in the OHL, he's 17. Not far off.
For being a jackass he deserves A shot. One. Maybe another for turtling like a coward.

However when a guy turtles you dont rip off his helmet and continue the shots to the head. This is where the refs failed miserably and the onus is on the attacker to let up. This is where the police think its appropriate to lay charges (at teh request of the parents). Im not fond of police involvement especially in hockey but this guy might be a good martyr for the cause so other meatheads dont think they have immunity on the ice. 
Headshots are still more of a concern than fisticuffs though and are less indictable.


----------



## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

hardasmum said:


> I find it interesting when it is suggested that "fighting" is a part of hockey. Perhaps it's part of the "Canadian" version of the game. I don't see fighting as an integral part of the Scandinavian or Eastern European style of hockey. If anything they are known for their speed and passing.
> 
> A few years ago when they replayed the 1972 Summit Series between Canada and the Soviet Union in its entirety, I must admit I felt a little embarrassed. In what is perhaps the most quintessential moment in the history of Canadian Hockey I feel we came off as a bunch of thugs.
> 
> I know it's argued that the Officials were making bad calls and that the Soviets were keeping the Canadian players up all night with phone calls to their rooms but at the end of the day we should have stuck to playing the game and not resorted to taking swings at the Referee and Soviet players.


Go back and watch that more carefully--the Soviets were hardly gentlemanly players--they did a lot of nasty stickwork.
but they were often sneaky about it, and they got away with a lot of it when they played in Russia.

Maybe they didn't fight a lot--but they were nowhere near as innocent as they are made out to be.

That doesn't exonerate anything Team Canada did--but it does mean the separation is not as broad as assumed when it comes to dirty play, etc.


----------



## Chubba (Aug 23, 2009)

I'm not a big fan of the fighting in hockey, but I'm not sure it has to be eliminated either. I think you'd have sneaky, dirty players doing dangerous things to other players with impunity. I think these guys are pros and should be able to play without the dirty crap, but at the same time, will do anything for that competitive edge, anything for the ice time. If you can be a dick with your stick, or whatever, and not worry about the other team's enforcer making sure you know that's not cool, it can get bad, i think. I think the retaliatory actions in these cases would lead to a lot more injuries (no fights, cheap shots are answered with cheaper shots)...

I do also think there's a difference between giving someone a few shots for snowing the goalie, to let him know that he can't be doing that, and putting him on the ice and mercilessly punching him in the face when he's down - once his nose is broken, I think he's gotten the point. If you're going to snow a goalie when you're winning 7-2, you should also expect that someone on the other team will not be cool with that.


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Repeatedly hammering a guy when he's down (turtled) indicates out of control rage. This is a far cry from two players on their feet duking it out, then quitting when one or both players go down. The former circumstance warrants criminal charges and permanent suspension, the latter circumstance warrants stiffer penalties than are currently available but not criminal charges or permanent suspension. Staged fighting is so anti-hockey it's ridiculous. Hockey shouldn't be staged, it's what is killing pro sports for lots of people. Staged fights should be dealt with swiftly and harshly. The team should suffer consequences...Peace, Mooh.


----------



## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

All these responses and not one person answered my question. Is the NHL a better game with Patrick Kalata, a moron that runs around trying to hurt people and one of the dirtiest players in the NHL or Shawn Thorton, the Boston Bruins enforcer? Look at their stats and decide who is more valuable to their team.
*Patrick Kaleta*

Right Wing
Born Jun 8 1986 -- Buffalo, NY 
[27 yrs. ago] 
Height 5.11 -- Weight 195 -- Shoots R










 
Selected by Buffalo Sabres round 6 #176 overall 2004 NHL Entry Draft



  Regular Season
Playoffs
 Season
Team
Lge
GP
G
A
Pts
PIM
+/-
GP
G
A
Pts
PIM
2002-03
Peterborough Petes
OHL
67
7
9
16
67
-11
7
6
2003-04
Peterborough Petes
OHL
67
14
14
28
126
-6
--
--
--
--
--
2004-05
Peterborough Petes
OHL
62
24
28
52
146
15
14
3
3
6
30
2005-06
Peterborough Petes
OHL
68
16
35
51
121
20
19
8
10
18
43
2006-07
Rochester Americans
AHL
58
5
10
15
133
1
5
12
2006-07
Buffalo Sabres
NHL
7
2
2
21
3
--
--
--
--
--
2007-08
Rochester Americans
AHL
29
1
3
4
109
-2
--
--
--
--
--
2007-08
Buffalo Sabres
NHL
40
3
2
5
41
1
--
--
--
--
--
2008-09
Buffalo Sabres
NHL
51
4
5
9
89
1
--
--
--
--
--
2009-10
Buffalo Sabres
NHL
55
10
5
15
89
2
6
1
1
2
22
2010-11
Buffalo Sabres
NHL
51
4
5
9
78
-4
6
1
2
3
6
2011-12
Buffalo Sabres
NHL
63
5
5
10
116
-5
--
--
--
--
--
2012-13
Buffalo Sabres
NHL
34
1
1
67
-4
--
--
--
--
--
NHL Totals
301
27
24
51
501
12
2
3
5
28


Guys like Shawn Thornton protect his team from the Kalata's and the Matt Cooke's. Look at Cooke's stats, probably the dirtiest player in the NHL right now. Does the NHL need players like him?


----------



## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

*Shawn Thornton

*Right Wing
Born Jul 23 1977 -- Oshawa, ONT 
[35 yrs. ago] 
Height 6.02 -- Weight 217 -- Shoots R










 
Selected by Toronto Maple Leafs round 7 #190 overall 1997 NHL Entry Draft



  Regular Season
Playoffs
 Season
Team
Lge
GP
G
A
Pts
PIM
+/-
GP
G
A
Pts
PIM
1995-96
Peterborough Petes
OHL
63
4
10
14
192
24
3
3
25
1996-97
Peterborough Petes
OHL
61
19
10
29
204
11
2
4
6
20
1997-98
St. John's Maple Leafs
AHL
59
3
3
225
-2
--
--
--
--
--
1998-99
St. John's Maple Leafs
AHL
78
8
11
19
354
6
5
9
1999-00
St. John's Maple Leafs
AHL
60
4
12
16
316
-9
--
--
--
--
--
2000-01
St. John's Maple Leafs
AHL
79
5
12
17
320
-13
3
1
2
3
2
2001-02
Norfolk Admirals
AHL
70
8
14
22
281
-3
4
4
2002-03
Chicago Blackhawks
NHL
13
1
1
2
31
-4
--
--
--
--
--
2002-03
Norfolk Admirals
AHL
50
11
2
13
213
-7
9
2
2
28
2003-04
Norfolk Admirals
AHL
64
6
11
17
259
-7
8
1
1
2
6
2003-04
Chicago Blackhawks
NHL
8
1
1
23
2
--
--
--
--
--
2004-05
Norfolk Admirals
AHL
71
5
9
14
263
-15
6
8
2005-06
Norfolk Admirals
AHL
59
10
22
32
192
-8
4
35
2005-06
Chicago Blackhawks
NHL
10
16
-5
--
--
--
--
--
2006-07
Portland Pirates
AHL
15
4
4
8
55
1
--
--
--
--
--
2006-07
Anaheim Ducks
NHL
48
2
7
9
88
3
15
19
2007-08
Boston Bruins
NHL
58
4
3
7
74
-1
7
6
2008-09
Boston Bruins
NHL
79
6
5
11
123
-2
10
1
1
6
2009-10
Boston Bruins
NHL
74
1
9
10
141
-9
12
4
2010-11
Boston Bruins
NHL
79
10
10
20
122
8
18
1
1
24
2011-12
Boston Bruins
NHL
81
5
8
13
154
-7
5
2012-13
Boston Bruins
NHL
45
3
4
7
60
1
22
4
4
18
NHL Totals
495
33
47
80
832
89
1
5
6
77


----------



## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

[h=1]Matt Cooke[/h]Left Wing
Born Sep 7 1978 -- Belleville, ONT 
[34 yrs. ago] 
Height 5.11 -- Weight 205 -- Shoots L










 
Selected by Vancouver Canucks round 6 #144 overall 1997 NHL Entry Draft





  
  
Regular SeasonPlayoffs SeasonTeamLgeGPGAPtsPIM+/-GPGAPtsPIM1994-95Wellington DukesMetJHL469233262 1995-96Windsor SpitfiresOHL6181119102 713461996-97Windsor SpitfiresOHL65455095146 55510101997-98Windsor SpitfiresOHL2314193350 ----------1997-98Kingston FrontenacsOHL258132149 128816201998-99Vancouver CanucksNHL3002227-12----------1998-99Syracuse CrunchAHL37151833119-28----------1999-00Vancouver CanucksNHL515712393----------1999-00Syracuse CrunchAHL185813277----------2000-01Vancouver CanucksNHL81141327945400042001-02Vancouver CanucksNHL821320331114632502002-03Vancouver CanucksNHL82152742822114213122003-04Vancouver CanucksNHL531112237357314122005-06Vancouver CanucksNHL458101871-8----------2006-07Vancouver CanucksNHL81102030640100022007-08Vancouver CanucksNHL61791664-42007-08Washington CapitalsNHL17347275700042008-09Pittsburgh PenguinsNHL76131831101024167222009-10Pittsburgh PenguinsNHL791515301061713426222010-11Pittsburgh PenguinsNHL6712183012914----------2011-12Pittsburgh PenguinsNHL821919384456044162012-13Pittsburgh PenguinsNHL488132136-21504435NHL Totals935153207360106897132033129


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

The league is better off without both.

That's the point. Dirty, aggressive attempts to injure need to be more severely punished, but using violence to offset violence is not my idea of an effective solution.


----------



## doriangrey (Mar 29, 2011)

Milkman said:


> using violence to offset violence is not my idea of an effective solution.


Excellent point and well said...I couldnt agree more. 

One more point, the best hockey ive seen is the hockey I saw at the 2010 winter Olympics and They seemed to get through that tournament without any fighting or dirty play.


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Milkman said:


> The league is better off without both.
> 
> That's the point. Dirty, aggressive attempts to injure need to be more severely punished, but using violence to offset violence is not my idea of an effective solution.


Agreed. I had hoped hockey would be more evolved by now.


----------



## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Milkman said:


> The league is better off without both.
> 
> That's the point. Dirty, aggressive attempts to injure need to be more severely punished, but using violence to offset violence is not my idea of an effective solution.


I agree that dirty players need to be punished more severely. The NHL doesn't need those types of players.


----------



## buzzy (May 28, 2011)

Milkman said:


> Dirty, aggressive attempts to injure need to be more severely punished, but using violence to offset violence is not my idea of an effective solution.


The trick is will the refs be able to catch these "dirty, aggressive attempts to injure", or at least enough of them to make a difference?

"using violence to offset violence" doesn't sound like a good solution at a glance, but those who argue that fighting in hockey has its place use that reasoning all the time. They claim that without the threat of a fight, there will be a massive increase in stick work and dirty plays and the refs won't catch them. They say it's up to the players to police themselves. Maybe they're right. I don't know. Hockey is incredibly violent. Shorter tournaments don't have as much of that sort of thing, but the grind of the regular season is different from a short tournament. In the past, I've compared hockey violence to football violence but, frankly, they're totally different games. As others have noted earlier in the thread, with hockey, the players have sticks and skates.

We may someday be able to see the effect of banning fighting in hockey. I seem to recall reading the NHL Player's Association (or at least its head) is moving in that direction. I'm not sure how the league will feel about that, given that fighting drives the fans in the stands wild. Some have suggested the NHL is trying to compete with UFC and wants to keep the game as bloody as possible.

I've watched boxing in the past, but I can't stand hockey fights. I don't watch them. If one happens during a game, I change the channel, close my eyes, or leave the room. Ditto for game highlights. I prefer the games where there are no fights, but I can't say what the impact of banning fighting will be and I don't think anyone really can. We'll just have to see what happens if they do ban it.

Often, changing one thing results in three or four other things changing as well. In some cases, it's easy to see what will change but in other cases, it's more of a, "Whoa! I didn't see that coming....."

We will see.


----------



## Percy (Feb 18, 2013)

hardasmum said:


> I find it interesting when it is suggested that "fighting" is a part of hockey. Perhaps it's part of the "Canadian" version of the game. I don't see fighting as an integral part of the Scandinavian or Eastern European style of hockey. If anything they are known for their speed and passing.
> 
> A few years ago when they replayed the 1972 Summit Series between Canada and the Soviet Union in its entirety, I must admit I felt a little embarrassed. In what is perhaps the most quintessential moment in the history of Canadian Hockey I feel we came off as a bunch of thugs.
> 
> I know it's argued that the Officials were making bad calls and that the Soviets were keeping the Canadian players up all night with phone calls to their rooms but at the end of the day we should have stuck to playing the game and not resorted to taking swings at the Referee and Soviet players.


WOW...Do i ever disagree with this...embarrassed?At what ,the Soviets raising their elbows and sticks every time the Canadians went to make a clean check.I watched this series a hundred times and i still get chills,i have it on DVD.The Canadians were out of shape and got out played in Canada.The Soviets are the dirtiest players i had ever seen,their stick work,illegal picks,inside elbows drove the Canadians crazy.The Canadians never did get many calls their way and came back to win on guts and heart......Every time i pull out my DVD and watch this great series i see more dirty play..not by our boys but by the dirtiest players on earth the Russians.....


----------



## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Percy said:


> WOW...Do i ever disagree with this...embarrassed?At what ,the Soviets raising their elbows and sticks every time the Canadians went to make a clean check.I watched this series a hundred times and i still get chills,i have it on DVD.The Canadians were out of shape and got out played in Canada.The Soviets are the dirtiest players i had ever seen,their stick work,illegal picks,inside elbows drove the Canadians crazy.The Canadians never did get many calls their way and came back to win on guts and heart......Every time i pull out my DVD and watch this great series i see more dirty play..not by our boys but by the dirtiest players on earth the Russians.....


That's basically the same thing I posted--so I have to agree with you.

It's more obvious watching it with the DVDs of the games, not just clips.


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I guess our violence is not so bad after all




> One man has been arrested in northern Brazil after a referee who fatally stabbed an amateur player over his refusal to leave the field was stoned to death and decapitated by a mob, police said on Saturday.
> 
> Referee Octavio da Silva, 20, expelled player Josenir dos Santos Abreu, 30, from a June 30 match in the remote town of Pio XII, named after a former pope. Abreu refused to leave, and the two got into a fist fight. Silva then took out a knife and stabbed Abreu, who died on his way to the hospital.
> 
> A police statement issued this week says Abreu's friends and relatives immediately "rushed into the field, stoned the referee to death and quartered his body."


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Ok, well, I haven't seen any decapitations during NHL games in many years so I guess it's not as bad as I thought.

Phew, glad we got that worked out.


----------



## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I guess our violence is not so bad after all


They take their soccer seriously--even more than a football fan in Texas.
Not that that's a good thing--it's scary.


----------



## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

This may not win me a popularity contest here, but Don Cherry has it right as far as the instigator rule is concerned. It has allowed cheap shot artists like Barnaby & Cooke to run rampant & also led to the ridiculous staged fights in today's NHL. Trim the rosters so that no team can afford to carry a goon. You can't skate, you don't play.

Hockey is a game of speed, skill & intimidation. A defenceman rushes his pass & coughs up the puck b/c he knows the forecheck is coming & he's already been hit enough tonight. Although I love tough, physical hockey I don't like fighting. Yet I still prefer it when the players police the game.


----------



## Option1 (May 26, 2012)

This need a goon to stop cheapshots is such a strawman argument. Hockey could get rid of the goons, fights, and the cheapshots in an instant. Toughen the rules considerably, enforce them. Simples.

For example, a cheapshot puts the player caught committing out of the rest of the game with no replacement. Then lump a substantial supension on top. And to those who would claim, but that penalises the whole team, my response would be, "Exactly!"

I can't believe the bullshit assaults that occur in a hockey game that would earn someone a trip in front of a judge if they happened outside the rink. Actually, I can think of no good reason why the law shouldn't apply to offences committed on the ice.

In the end it's obviously a cultural thing. I'm new to hockey haven't grown up in Australia where there's a far less reliance on this enforcer bullcrapola in the equally tough sports of Rugby League and Rugby Union.

Neil


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Hockey is a fast and excitiong game for me and obviously for many others. 

When the fighting starts it actually grosses me out. I often change the channel.

But, based on the poll results, those who enjoy the fights or at least don't think they're as big a problem as other elements of the game are clearly the majority.


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