# Will we dare to try !!!!



## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

OK
The pic will be my evidence...
IF you can't tell whats happening then this is NOT for you.

I am going to pick one of my guitars and definitely going for it...
The logic is so compelling that I cant see a downside..

Anyways....you thoughts are always welcome.
G.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

So if you're using the 2 Tone Pots as a Treble and Bass control, what are the values of those 2 Pots and taper used? I'm assuming audio and 500K for humbuckers. Cool idea. 

Can you also explain the difference in cap values?


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

First of all this scheme is NOT my idea...
I just saw it and was impressed. I have never seen this wiring scheme before.
Isn't the difference in cap values obvious if one pot is for a bass control and the other pot is a treble control.
Thats the way I see it...
G.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Interesting!

What is the source of your diagram?

Some more similar ideas, discussion and electronic values...
AaronLum.com: Bass Cut Tone Pot. Get Some Clarity out of Those Heavy Riffs!
This is an interesting comment by the author in the above: _(As a side note, I recommend adding a "Treble Bleed Mod" on both the Volume Pots)_


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Not that obvious...that's why I asked. But I just looked it up and guess the smaller value cap rolls off more of the highest frequencies. Which I guess will keep the Bass response intact. I was looking for specifics though as I do realise different caps effect different frequency values. Depending on the other component values.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

If you look close Dave, the wiring in your diagram is very different especially as it pertains to the treble and bass pots.
I have no idea which works better but I do know they are different.
G.







by the way...I can't remember what web site I found my wiring scheme . I was just browsing along.



greco said:


> Interesting!
> 
> What is the source of your diagram?
> 
> ...


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I don't like it.
Most bass-cut circuits, like the control found on G&L and Reverend guitars, is situated _ahead_ of the volume control, where this diagram shows it as the last thing in line before the output jack. Not only does that pose a risk of switch-popping if the guitar is plugged into a true-bypass pedal as the first device, but it also risks loading down the signal.
Such bass-cut controls tend to be used with master-volume/tone setups, so the question emerges as how to use it with dual volumes. My own inclination would be to move it just ahead of the neck-pickup volume, such that it could be used to thin out the neck pickup, when used alone or in combination with the bridge. The treble-cut would continue to apply to whatever pickup/s were on. If you'd like to be able to thin out the bridge pickup on its own, I would probably supplement that by incorporating a 680-1000pf treble-bypass (compensation) cap on the bridge volume control. That would provide for a slightly thinner sound when the bridge pickup is turned down.

So, overall, you're keeping the same controls, just applying them where they will afford the most tonal flexibility while minimizing risks to tone and overall sound.

Bass-cut controls of the type shown, offer two parallel paths for the signal to travel. It can go through whatever resistance the pot provides OR the bypass cap (1500pf in this instance). The cap provides effectively zero resistance to higher-frequency signals, while the pot allows all frequencies to pass equally. When the pot is set to a high resistance, it becomes easier for high-frequencies than for mids and lows to pass via the cap. When set to zero resistance (no bass cut), and placed ahead of the volume pot, it's as if the control is not even there. Placed at the end, before the output jack, if there is any small charge stored up in the cap (which has nowhere to drain off until a connection is made), use of a true bypass pedal immediately after the guitar will produce a brief disconnection and reconnection whenever the pedal's bypass switch is hit. That can yield audible pops. Relocating the basscut before the volume avoids that.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

While we are on this topic, I spent a lot of time in the past on the Seymour Duncan forum and one of the forum members "ArtieToo" (the resident "electronics guru" and (IIRC) brother of Bruce Collins, the owner of Mission Amplifiers, Denver) encouraged trying "Artie's De-Mud Mod" for reducing muddiness in a pickup, especially the neck. ArtieToo preferred a 0.01 uf cap and an added resistor in parallel.















I have always been curious about trying this simple mod.

@GTmaker This post was not intended to derail your thread but to offer more possible approaches to tone adjustment through the electronics circuits in guitars for discussion.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The Fender Jaguar includes what often gets referred to as the "strangle" switch. This also places a cap in series with the pickup, just ahead of the volume pot, to thin out the tone.

While Les Paul owners/users/observers will know that the pickup switch is labelled "rhythm" for the neck-only position, there are many contexts in which the optimal tone for rhythm work is a thin sound. It's not ALL about sounding like Joe Pass. A great deal of R&B employs a thin tone for choppy rhythm work. See Nile Rogers' work behind a range of people for a good example.

Interestingly, thanks primarily to Joe Gagan's early experiments in the late '90s, many Fuzz-Face derivatives use something near identical to the guitar bass-cut control on the input of the pedal circuit. Stock fuzzes from the '60s often limited bass content at the input in order to emphasize the sizzling qualities of a fuzz effect, over its "woofiness". Joe came up with a variable bass control. In this example, the input signal "prefers" to go through the .005uf cap when the "Tone" control is set to maximum resistance. As the Tone control resistance is decreased, more of the mids and lows pass through the 10uf cap.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

could someone please comment on the fact that on my original post wiring setup, the "Bass" pot is NOT grounded.
I would like to know if this is an oversight.
Does it make NO difference if this pot is grounded OR is it important not to ground this pot.?

The reason I ask is that I am going to try this wiring scheme and its always a pain in the butt when you put things back together and then find that you should of grounded/Not grounded something.

thanks in advance
G.

as for others chiming in on other stuff.....the more the merrier I say.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

@mhammer The image in your post is not showing.
Thanks for the interesting information.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

GTmaker said:


> could someone please comment on the fact that on my original post wiring setup, the "Bass" pot is NOT grounded.
> I would like to know if this is an oversight.
> Does it make NO difference if this pot is grounded OR is it important not to ground this pot.?
> 
> ...


Most show it grounded ...but not all. 
reverend bass cut wiring - Google Search


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Here's the Reverend circuit. You can see that no part of the bass cut goes to ground, although a ground connection to the back of the pot, for shielding purposes, is a good idea.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mhammer said:


> *a ground connection to the back of the pot*, for shielding purposes, is a good idea.


I think this was the "ground" in question. At least, that was my interpretation.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

So I did my rewire on my wonderful Epi Joe Pass last night as per my original post pic ( diagram 1 C ).
Wiring scheme and caps are exact to spec.

Started late and finished at 2 AM so haven't had any amplifier time BUT I did run a bare wire around the Treble and Bass pots to see if grounding the bass pot made any difference and it didn't.
No buzzing or anything strange so the Bass pot can be grounded if you please.

G.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Looking forward to reading your comments after you have tried it through an amp.

Was it the Joe Pass that you also wanted to convert to independent volume controls quite some time ago?


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

greco said:


> Looking forward to reading your comments after you have tried it through an amp.
> Was it the Joe Pass that you also wanted to convert to independent volume controls quite some time ago?


Yes it was Dave .... and this new wiring scheme is NOT volume independent.
I also went back to the original Joe Pass pickups which I never gave much of a chance since we put in the Jon Moore 57 Classics
as soon as I got the Joe Pass...

Should be interesting.
G.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

GTmaker said:


> ...and this new wiring scheme is NOT volume independent.


I think it would still be an easy mod if you wanted to do it.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

greco said:


> I think it would still be an easy mod if you wanted to do it.


Ive looking around the web for a wiring scheme that includes separate volume controls even when both pickups are activated in the middle position .
Havent had much luck...
Funny thing is ..... my Epi Sheraton has exactly the wiring that Im looking for.

G.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

This should be it...
Mod Garage: Decouple Your Les Paul’s Volume Controls | 2014-07-18 | Premier Guitar

Do you have an inspection mirror (and an LED flashlight) to check the volume pots on your Sheraton just to confirm? If not, Canadian Tire typically has them.









What do you think of the tone controls/resultant tones after the changes?


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

greco said:


> This should be it...
> Mod Garage: Decouple Your Les Paul’s Volume Controls | 2014-07-18 | Premier Guitar
> What do you think of the tone controls/resultant tones after the changes?


For anyone looking at the wiring diagram in the Premier Guitar article please read this very important note..
this is from the article:
*Now, simply interchange connections 3 and 2 on both volume pots, including the tone cap connections. 
That’s it! Leave all connections on the tone pots untouched. You’ve now wired both volume pots backwards, thus decoupling them.
*
As for my new bass and treble controls on my Epi Joe Pass, its very interesting.
Best way to describe it is is this. Let say you had an amplifier with a volume control and one knob "Tone" control...Ive seen them and they seem to work fine.
Now lets say that on the same amp you took way the "tone" control and replaced it with a treble and bass controls. Thats about how it operates.

Interesting quirk.
The bass control works normal....from zero to ten you get more and more bass.
Treble control seems to work the opposite. Treble on 10 and you get full high cut. Treble control on zero and you get full treble tone.

MAybe its my mistake and I wired something wrong....thats a definite possibility.
I have such a terrible time installing all the controls into the hollowbody that I have no intention of taking every thing out just to have a look at the wiring.
I can live with the "quirk".

Bottom line...I did change pickups and make the wiring change so its a little difficult for me to decide whats causing the guitar to sound so good.
Totally happy with the "new" stuff and I have to say its pretty cool working with a bass control and a treble control on a guitar.
G.


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## alwaysflat (Feb 14, 2016)

Wouldn't the Bass control corner frequency be fixed then, and based on input impedance of the amp? Just curious if you notice amp to amp (or DI) differences ? like affecting A2 and below versus a knee at A3 or higher. 
fc = 1/(2piRC). 
My question would pertain to settings less than full bass , in that full bass would be just flat response, and apparently independent of the load impedance. 
2nd question is simpler, do you miss a separate tone for the neck ? 

The configuration sounds intriguing.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

"2nd question is simpler, do you miss a separate tone for the neck ? "...

I look at it this way....when I play a song, I tend to stick to a particular pickup configuration that I think is suitable for that song.
Once there and with this particular guitar, I now have 2 control knobs to get me to my desired tone.

Im having fun with it , but bottom line, if you can get to your desired tone, it really doesn't matter how you got there.
G.


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