# Songwriting: talk about your approach



## nbs2005 (Mar 21, 2018)

As mentioned I recently took a songwriting workshop with Lori Yates in Hamilton (highly recommended). I had dabbled in song writing before, but could never get over the hump to finish songs; usually comparing them to my heroes and decided they were shit. I finally got the guts to just do it, and it's been a lot of fun.

I am curious how others find writing and how they approach it? For me, it starts with prose; making myself sit down and write a little story. A lot of them have chunks of my own life experience in them, though I just did my first completely made up song a few days ago. I write on computer because I like being able to accurately see the number of words in each line for balance.

Once I'm reasonably happy with the lyrics, I start strumming to find a grove and singing little bits and pieces. When I'm done I have chords and a melody (never written) in my head that I can usually recall. Then it's tweak and tweak for a bit (or much longer).

I'd be curious to hear others approach to writing.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I go the other way. Start with a lick, develop it into a chord progression, find a groove, start adding words. What ever comes out.
I lose a lot of songs by not writing them down or recording them when they happen. I think I'll never forget them, but when I come back to the guitar a couple hours later, they are gone. Just like a dream, they fade that fast. You know what you were doing, you can run through the same chords, but the groove has left the building and taken the words with it.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Groove first ....


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Yeah, I tend to start with lyrics first and that's been going horribly for the last few years. Start with the groove or main riff; that tells you what the song wants to be about.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Come up with guitar parts. Record them. Improvise vocals over it a few times. Use whatever lyrics were good. Figure out the song melody structure, how many syllables in a line. Flesh out the lyrics. Rerecord everything.

Or come up with guitar idea and a few lines and record them on my phone.

Like this as yet unfinished song.


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https://soundcloud.com/id%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fsoundcloud.com%252Fguncho%252Fstars%252Fs-zOa79%3Bsecret_token%3Ds-zOa79%3Btrack_id%3D431639727


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Usually the riff/chord progression first. These come down out of nowhere and you have to record them right away before they vanish forever. They don’t necessarily have a lyric idea attached to them right away; that comes later.

Lyrics are written separately and usually come at once like a verse or two and I write them down fast to nail the idea and fix them up later if need be; it’s not like you use a thesaurus for this most of it comes out already rhymed and so on.

I also have a galvanized bucket so that if I get a good line; something like “bridges burn and shed no light” then I’ll write it down on a scrap of paper and throw it in the song bucket. Then, on a miserable rainy day like today, I go through the notes in the song bucket so I can be even more depressed. 

To some extent I don’t like where I have to go to in my mind to write songs; there’s a reason why all them famous song writin fuckers are messed up .. lol

To hell with this nonsense; I think I’m gonna drag my ass to L&M Bloor today and look at that 2019 Les Paul GT with P90s and 50s neck might cheer me up a bit more than writing songs about cracked windshields, broken motors and busted lives.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

*There are no good song writers, only good song re-writers.*

"Why Dostoevsky abandoned his initial version [of _Crime and Punishment_] remains a matter of speculation. [But] he did not burn everything he had written earlier." -- from Wikipedia


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

I don't consciously sit down to write a song. I'll just get something in my head and write it down, then flesh it out. Did the same thing when I was sort of writing copy. Then when I get around a guitar I might try some chords.


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## nbs2005 (Mar 21, 2018)

Interesting to hear the different approaches. I almost always need to start from a lyrical idea. Now granted, I've been writing for a total of 3 months now, so we'll see where this goes. Thanks everyone for sharing. I need to upload some of my stuff.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Usually when I get ideas for a song it's not possible to write it down or record it in any way. Like when you're cranking through the twisties at perhaps an excessive speed. Sometimes you remember and sometimes you don't. Sometimes what seems to be really good at 3 in the morning and you write it down is just words that don't make sense the next day. With or without drugs and/or alcohol.


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

Ive taught songwriting for 25 years at different times and levels. Mostly private. 

My most important bullet points:
- Melody is king
- in order to write good songs, one must be willing to write a greater number of mediocre songs.
- stick to stepwise motion mostly with your melodies
- if you ear likes it, then it’s probably good.
- if you can’t whistle it, no one will remember it.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Now I have come up with song lyrics off the top of my head during some jams. They sometimes fall out tee hee..... but where tend to fall down on is creating bridges. Not to mention the idea of ..verse/prechorus/chorus structure. So some of mine songs tend to ramble MP3 Player SoundClick


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Why I stay around here..  but don't forget the hook ....



sambonee said:


> Ive taught songwriting for 25 years at different times and levels. Mostly private.
> 
> My most important bullet points:
> - Melody is king
> ...


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

I pick up a bass. When you play an instrument other than your normal one it takes you away from habits. I find I can imagine what I would play against the bassline.

You can use placeholder lyrics, famously Scrambled Eggs. The sound of the words will form some idea, coalesce into something pretty quickly. You know it’s right when you enjoy singing it.

It’s easier to sing a song where the melody follows natural speech and cadence. I’ve been fooling around with an idea that started with mimicking the sound of moaning, and quickly turned into a David Bowie [like] song.

When you decide on a subject, brainstorm everything you know about it. You end up with something similar to the word clouds that were popular on the internet a few years ago.










Take all that randomness and organize it, group similar things together, find parallels, mix sets of ideas together into themes. You may find connections you hadn’t realized were there or hadn’t realized that you knew. You can pretty much write your song reading that sheet. 

I think some songs are just out there. You pull them out of the ether.

If I listen to certain albums, I will be able to write a song afterwards. #1 goto album has always been Ozzy Osbourne’s Speak of the Devil, I don’t know why, I don’t write songs like that. I was sad to read he dismisses the album.

Black Francis’ NonStopErotik is an album mostly about sex. People don’t push themselves or their art enough. Try being brutally honest, explicit. You can dial it back or obfuscate it once you get what you need out if it.

Words are amazing, they have history, meanings change. Get into words. You have a limited amount of time and syllables. You can put multiple levels of meaning into three words, connect different lines of the song together, carry duplicity, highlight contradictions. Try The Allusionist podcast.

Find the best word. Rhyming is child’s play. Near rhymes are subversive, no rhyming is a big fuck you.


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## Xelebes (Mar 9, 2015)

I was taught early on that if I was going to have lyrics, you better start with the lyrics before you start working on the melody and all that other stuff. If lyrics are only flavour to a beat, then work on the beat.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Hammerhands said:


> ... When you play an instrument other than your normal one it takes you away from habits.


A didgeridoo is very effective in that regard.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Xelebes said:


> I was taught early on that if I was going to have lyrics, you better start with the lyrics before you start working on the melody and all that other stuff. If lyrics are only flavour to a beat, then work on the beat.


This is interesting. For me, I think the melody would come first. I can finagle lyrics around a melody, but I don't think I can make a melody fit some lyrics without sounding forced.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

or just write instrumentals .....

what were the lyrics to "Classic gas"?

then there's always "Black Queen" by Stills


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

I took a workshop with Lori at a folk music camp and she is great. I had never written a song before and now I have four and a bunch of ideas for more. My approach is to write when I feel the urge and I don’t know if I can say I have a method that works, yet. A couple of my songs started out with me sort of playing through chord progressions, the other two were driven by lyrics. I’ll get back to you when I’ve written a few dozen more to see if I’ve developed any sort of pattern or method


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## blueshores_guy (Apr 8, 2007)

Well, here's a long-winded reply, covering my process start to finish...................................

My approach to songwriting may well be different from what works for others here. That's because I create only songs that are meant to be instrumentals. I don't sing, never have, never wanted to, never intend to. Ergo, instrumental. That makes the challenge of writing an engaging song even more difficult, as your playing must please, without any lyrics for help.

Starting point is always, always, always chord progressions. I've learned enough chords in the last ten years to last me a long time, including lots of oddball ones you'll not find in a regular chord chart. I'll fit three or four (or six, or eight) of them together into what I consider a pleasing combination, without worrying about what key I'm playing in, or whether the chords I've chosen happen to fit a particular 'accepted' structure. I'll do what sounds good to my ears.

Once I have a basic premise for the song, which often won't be much more than four bars long, I'll noodle around looking for another sequence of chords that can act as the 'B' section, or chorus...something that complements the original sequence and provides some relief and support for it.

Next step is to figure out a tempo and which drum patterns fit. Using an Alesis drum machine, I'll play the chords over various tempos and patterns until I find something that's OK on both counts. Most times, at this point, I'll have the chord progressions figured out well enough that it's safe to record a drum track, complete with fills at appropriate spots. The drum track will always be the first one recorded, as it makes things so much easier from that point on to have further tracks in time with the drums. I have a somewhat boring, but exceptionally consistent drummer. 

Recording the chord sequences is next.

After that comes a bass track. This is sometimes tricky, depending on the complexity of the chord sequences making up the song, and I'll often have to tab out the entire bass track as I make it up, to avoid conflicting notes or other unpleasant stuff. But to me, coming up with a bass track is fairly easy.

So by now I have three tracks: drums, rhythm (the chords), and bass. Now it's time for a melody/solo track. And this one usually takes by far the longest to get done. I try to plan out my melody riffs so that there's some logic to them, some build-up of tension, some resolution(s) at the correct point(s). Again, depending on complexity, the melody track often gets tabbed out before recording.

If the song sounds better with some kind of intro sequence, usually a few chords totally different from the main thrust of the song, or perhaps done on an acoustic, I'll add it here. Same goes if an outro sounds good, it'll get added later. I think a lot of times the outro should mirror the intro, to provide some continuity. 

After that, its just(!) a matter of recording the melody track(s), adding any special effects, fixing all the various goofs, re-recording the bits that can't be easily fixed, setting levels and pans, and generally doing lots of critical listening searching for things that don't sound quite right, or things I know can be improved upon.

Yes, I know, some (if not most) of my compositions are not great. I cringe whenever I happen to listen to the things I recorded five years ago. But, I'm always convinced that the last recording I've done is my best. That's what keeps me going.

I've posted this link a couple of weeks ago, but here's a sample of how this all works out...............


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https://soundcloud.com/https%3A%2F%2Fsoundcloud.com%2Fuser-433381886%2Fthin-atmosphere


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## Blind Dog (Mar 4, 2016)

I usually start by getting dumped, and then I stop by the liquor store.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

And then take it to the highway .. lol


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

And if it's a bluegrass song you need to send someone a letter; and maybe a shooting by the second or third verse.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

My stuff starts with a Riff or lick that I come up with just playing. When it catches my ear, I throw on the cell phone recorder and just play away. Then I'll load one up in Cakewalk or Reaper and come up with song structure around it. At last count I have 46 random riffs and licks that can be put to use in one way or another. Some will fit in with other original material, others stand on their own. Many are keep for another day. I have a few that are up to 20 years old that I haven't quite found a match for yet....but it'll come.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

I stumbled on some interesting videos this week :

1- John David Coupland : Songwriting 101





2- Andrea Stolpe : 5 songwriting tools that change everything





Mrs Stolpe produced some other videos about different aspects of songwriting as well.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

This is a great thread! I either missed it the first time around or completely forgot that I read it. 

Like @jdto I took a songwriting workshop at a music camp just before the shutdown. From that I have the beginnings of a few songs - or at least the beginnings of lyrics for a few songs. The only thing that I have completed so far is a solo acoustic instrumental with a second instrumental well underway. The first instrumental started with a tuning - Open D minor - that I wanted to try. The second with a tuning and a chord progression ripped from a classic tune.


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## nbs2005 (Mar 21, 2018)

Very interesting to see this thread burble up again. Over the past two years I've written 40ish songs; about half or so I've played for other people. I'm still mostly a lyrical idea first kind of writer, but my favourite recent songs have come from futzing with the guitar and something jumps out and I quickly record it on my cell phone. 

I'm currently putting together an EP/album of the best of those (home recording, I have a lot to learn) that I want to have a coffe-house feel (think Shawn Colvin's Cover Me album) of just me on guitar with smattering of friends/audience members to clap at the end of the song. We'll see how that goes.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

I cannot write lyrics. They are either cliché or just plain boring! Usually both. Riffs, licks, chord progressions?? I've forgotten more than most have written, just can't add words. 

I've sat with a couple people over the years who can write, and have shared their process, but that stuff either comes into your brain or it doesn't.


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## LouisFNCyphre (Apr 23, 2021)

I start with a song fragment that forms in my head and won't leave.


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## Jeff MacKillican (Jan 23, 2021)

I often come up with the best instrumentals while trying to copy something I heard on the radio - it never turns out the same, and sometimes leads to something interesting!


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