# compensate or not??



## jimmy c g (Jan 1, 2008)

Ive been trying some set up changes on my D 28 and this week, swapped the compensated saddle for a straight one and found the tuning easier and notes clearer.Could this be that Im used to hearing the "old style" saddle and now the compensated sounds off? Or could I use new ears?^^^^stay tuned^^^^ Jim


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## exhaust_49 (Jan 4, 2007)

I swapped the compensated saddle out for a straight one on my S+P and it tunes better. I don't notice any change in innotation. Whatever works works.


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## timberline (Nov 22, 2008)

*compensated saddles*

Thin compensated saddles are, in my opinion, a sales gimmick and a bust. Martin saddles are quite thin, under .100", so there isn't enough fore-and-aft adjustment available to make any significant difference to intonation available. All that is achieved by zig-zagging the tops of those saddles ( and many more like 'em on other brands) is the reduction in the size of the load-bearing area where the strings sit, leading to premature wear on string windings and quick notching of the saddle top itself.

In order to have any significant effect on intonation the saddle slot would have to be re-cut to accomodate a saddle of at least .150", then the saddle would have to be carefully bevelled from string to string. Even when this is done well, it is very difficult to retain the accurate curvature across the width of the saddle to match that of the fingerboard, and that is critical to proper playing feel.

Many modern manufacturers have switched for economic reasons from hand made bone saddles to mass-produced molded items which come from the supplier with the compensation built in. Since any such compensation will vary noticeably from one guitar to another depending on such variables as scale length, string diameter and action height, it is impossible to mold them in bulk and expect them to work properly on various makes and models.

You know what they say about marketing; ' Be careful not to step in any'.

Chances are excellent that you'll get better acoustic performance and even better intonation by switching to a properly made 'normal' saddle, preferably in a good hard natural material like bone, walrus ivory or the harder varieties of fossil ivory. Synthetics like Corian, micarta or plastics fall far short of good old bone and ivory.

KH


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

*It really depends*

Do you play up high on the neck, if so it will make a difference, so no, compensated saddles are not a gimmick, if you look at some very nice hand builts you will see that the saddles are always compensated, sorry I will leave it for Luthiers to come along and explain it in technical terms.
I have had most of my saddles re-done in many different materials, all done by proffesional Luthiers and they where all compensated, if you might know someone witha Petterson Strobe tuner and have them tune your guitar you will see how much difference it can make.This is strickly my opinion like every one else's which may differ than some others.Ship
I thought I should add this in also for you to read and judge for yourselfs.
http://www.lutherie.net/saddle_angle.html


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## timberline (Nov 22, 2008)

*compensated saddles*

Hi Ship;

You miss the point. When you replace a standard plain, thin saddle with a mass-produced, molded compensated saddle of the same width it is extremely unlikely that you'll get a noticeable improvement in intonation, and chances are good you may get a reduction in overall acoustic quality.

On one hand you are talking about luthier-fitted saddles compensated for a particular guitar, and on the other you're talking about convenient, cheap, mass produced molded skinny items being used by a number of manufacturers in order to lower production costs.

A skilled tech can give you a useable improvement in intonation for many guitars, but it's expensive and involves a wider ( thicker) saddle.

The link you added shows the fix for manufacturers original errors. In the case of Martins, which is what started the thread, over the years there have been a number of intonation problems which were due not to uncompensated saddles but to worn jigs in the plant resulting in the bridges being set slightly off their intended site.

Having been a pro luthier/restorer for over 40 years, an ex-CF Martin employee, and an independent product consultant to companies like Yamaha, Washburn, Guild and others in the past, I can tell you there is much more marketing than solid technical sense involved in the modern trend to drop-in saddles with intonation 'correction' molded in.

Yes, it is possible to make a staggered saddle to make up for shortcomings in original bridge and/or saddle placement, but it makes more sense to put the saddle where it belongs in the first place.
KH


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

*Hey there timberline*

While you are correct that the compensated saddles you get from all manafactures are to make up for their laziness to make sure their jigs for cutting the saddles are set properly. I couldn't tell if jimmy had swapped out his saddle from a store bought or what and was just trying to get folks to see that a made ( from a luthier ) saddle was the best way to go.
It gets difficult sometimes to guess what they are really trying to ask or say.
Also I am curious as to who you worked with at Washburn, I have maybe too many of their guitars in my stable and have had some work done on almost all of them having the saddle slot refitted and properly re-cut with a bone saddle, all except my hand built from them a D-78SW, seem is just stunning and great intonation.
And I can not help but totally agree with you that it should always be done right the first time at the makers, but hey like everybody out there, it seems to be the bottom line , even if you are willing to pay for it.So you got my agreeing with you.Ship


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## timberline (Nov 22, 2008)

*compensation*

Hi Ship;
In the late 70s and early 80s most of the big guitar wholesalers ran their instruments through warehouses in Toronto. Few had any technical people on staff, so when I left Martin in '77 and opened my own shop I started doing service contracts for those companies including Boosey and Hawkes, the Cdn. distributor for Washburns when they first came on the market here.

Seems to me the first ones we worked on were the then-new Festival series guitars with the oval soundholes, cutaways and onboard electronics. 

Washburn was owned by a guy called Rudi Schlacter ( sp?), and it still is, although Boosey and Hawkes ceased trading in Canada in the 80s I believe. The sales rep at Boosey in those days was a young chap called Steve Baldwin, and he has stayed with the line all these years. Now he is sales manager for the line with another distribution company which operates out of the States. Steve is in Hamilton. Very good guy.

Back then we were doing things like pre-sale preps on all the instruments over a certain price point before they went out to dealers. We also rectified any problems on the instruments as they came in, as well as some product development work and trouble-shooting for the company, as we did for Yamaha and others.

To get back to the orig. thread; the screwy thing with a lot of those commercial molded compensated saddles is that they often make no attempt to match the radius of the saddle top to the curve of the fingerboard. That will have far more effect on both playing feel and intonation than the meagre adjustment offered with those skinny zig-zag saddles.

Manufacturers defend the use of those things by saying 'the market expects compensated saddles'. I agree that if the saddles were properly compensated to the specific instruments, and were wide enough to allow useful compensation it would be a good thing, but the current situation with skinny, 'one size fits all' factory jobs is an illusion. A properly made and correctly located 'conventional' saddle of good materials is a far more practical bet.

KH


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## Grenvilleter (Dec 22, 2007)

I know Steve. A great guy.


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