# This really rubs me the wrong way



## Guest

/begin rant

The only thing worse than the person posting this is the idiots who "apply" for the gig. I'm actually annoyed that a board dedicated to _musicians_ put this up (the posts on The OM are all moderated). (Note: link to The OM's band page, the text of the listing follows)

If you're Ottawa's business elite you can pay for your ****ing entertainment.

Musicians: don't play for free. I don't care how young you are. You deserve financial compensation for plying your talents. Period.

/end rant



> Opportunity to play for Ottawa’s Business Elite! The Ottawa Chamber of Commerce is seeking a trio or quartet to provide cocktail/dinner music for their upcoming 2008 Ottawa Business Achievement Awardson Thursday, Nov 20th at Tudor Hall. This is an excellent opportunity for a local jazz or Latin trio or quartet to gain enormous visibility in front of 600 of Ottawa’s corporate decision makers. An in-kind contribution from a talented group of musicians would be recognized as "Entertainment Sponsors" and would be eligible for many brand-placement opportunities including: name in evening’s program, logo (if applicable) on PowerPoint presentation of Sponsors looped throughout the evening, thanks and recognition during the Awards ceremony and the chance to place business cards or promotional items at each table or place setting. If interested, please contact Alison Wilson, Sales and Marketing at [email protected] with a EPK including demos (mp3 format link or attachments) or mail/drop off your promo pack to: Ottawa Chamber of Commerce, 1701 Woodward Drive, Suite LL-20, Ottawa, ON K2C 0R4. Submissions must be received no later than Monday, November 3rd.
> [email protected]


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## guitarman2

While I tend to agree with you... I know a couple of bands that do the corporate thing and make a lot of money. If this was legit and could lead to that then its worth the freebie gig. I've done showcases in the past that didn't compensate financially but yielded profitable gains in the long run.
This past May I quit a band that was trying to have us put on a free show and pay for production out of our pockets. I thought the potential for gain from the free show was very low and not worth the time. The band leader and I disagreed and we parted ways. He never did do it which means he couldn't rope anyone else in to it either.
If I feel there is potential for gain I have not problem investing.


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## Guest

guitarman2 said:


> While I tend to agree with you... I know a couple of bands that do the corporate thing and make a lot of money. If this was legit and could lead to that then its worth the freebie gig. I've done showcases in the past that didn't compensate financially but yielded profitable gains in the long run.
> This past May I quit a band that was trying to have us put on a free show and pay for production out of our pockets. I thought the potential for gain from the free show was very low and not worth the time. The band leader and I disagreed and we parted ways. He never did do it which means he couldn't rope anyone else in to it either.
> If I feel there is potential for gain I have not problem investing.


It is the irony of the event that really irks me: a room of well-to-do business owners, patting themselves on the back for being successful, and refusing to pay for the entertainment. No, no, no, no, no. Future opportunity or not there is _nothing_ right with this scenario. You want to do a freebie? Cool. Find a charity. Bundle it with something worthwhile. This just annoys me to the point of writing angry emails to local government employees... :smile:


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## bagpipe

Thats why their the business elite - they dont mind screwing the regular Joes out of their money.


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## guitarman2

Paul said:


> The only two things I've ever got from exposure is frostbite and arrested.


Restrict your streaking to summer and you'll at least solve one of your problems.


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## rollingdam

Paul said:


> Everyone in that room will know exactly how much the musicians are getting paid that night.
> 
> How many of us are successful at negotiating UP from out first offer?
> 
> The only two things I've ever got from exposure is frostbite and arrested.
> 
> We have Alison's @mail address. Tell her how you fell and why. That's what I'm doing next.


I just did.


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## WEEZY

My band has played its fair share of these types of gigs - most noteably inside the Mini Cooper showroom in Yaletown (trendy part of downtown Vancouver) a few years ago playing to hundreds of business-types. 

I think they hire the 'low man on the totem pole' to find free entertainment as a challenge - which is bullshit on many levels. 

Needless to say, it lead to nothing and was a strange, thankless gig to play. From then on we instituted a minimum $500 charge for any performance - which I think every band should do.


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## rollingdam

One final thought-someone should put together a package featuring latin,jazz and other easy listening stuff-then you show up and play Death metal.


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## Guest

rollingdam said:


> One final thought-someone should put together a package featuring latin,jazz and other easy listening stuff-then you show up and play Death metal.


That's hilarious. Hmm...


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## devnulljp

iaresee said:


> That's hilarious. Hmm...


I'm in. :rockon2::rockon2::rockon2:
But I think a Rage Against the Machine cover band would be funnier.


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## bagpipe

Paul said:


> Everyone in that room will know exactly how much the musicians are getting paid that night.
> 
> How many of us are successful at negotiating UP from out first offer?
> 
> The only two things I've ever got from exposure is frostbite and arrested.
> 
> We have Alison's @mail address. Tell her how you feel and why. That's what I'm doing next.
> 
> <edit: changed "fell" to "feel".>





rollingdam said:


> I just did.


Ditto. I'll post again if I get any response to my "yours in disgust" email! :rockon2:


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## rollingdam

Here is the response I received from Alison:

Hello John,

Thank you for your email. I appreciate you taking the time to give me your
feedback. I completely understand your position. 

If I might have the same opportunity, I would like to tell you that I am a
musician – a professional vocalist that has been performing for many, many
years in and around the Ottawa area. I am also a business professional. It
is because of these two things that I am uniquely qualified to respond to
your concerns.

Many times in business, especially for an event such as this, businesses are
approached to provide in-kind or “contra” contributions. For this event, we
have secured floral sponsorships, décor sponsorships, photography
sponsorships, dinner sponsorships, and award sponsorships, etc. All of these
businesses go “out of pocket” in either a time contribution or a product
contribution to us in exchange for valuable promotion within our
organization. 

This promotion has a dollar value associated with it. This is not a “do this
for free and get nothing in return for it”; it’s the equivalent of taking
out an advertisement in the Ottawa Citizen to promote your services.
Marketing your business is key to success and advertising and promotion
costs money. The dollar value we are offering the Entertainment Sponsor is
approximately $4500 and is broken down as follows:

· Logo displayed on a continuous loop “Power Point” presentation
shown continuously during dinner and Awards Gala. ($1000 value)

· Name or Logo displayed in Evening Programs ($500 value)

· Special verbal acknowledgement during Gala ($500 value)

· Recognition in the special Business Achievement Awards features
that appear in the Ottawa Citizen both prior to and following the Awards
Gala.($1000 value)

· A full broadcast of the Gala is shown on several occasions
throughout the year by Rogers Television, during which your logo and thanks
will be mentioned in the course of the broadcast to the television viewing
audience ($1500 value)


We also did not specifically ask for Professional Musicians – we asked for
talented musicians. This could mean University students looking to gain
playing experience and exposure into the lucrative corporate market. It’s a
great thing to put on a budding musician’s resume that he/she played for the
Ottawa Chamber of Commerce – Ottawa’s oldest and most respected Business
organization. If the right group came along they would have a fantastic
opportunity to gain valuable experience and exposure. 

This is not meant as a slight, but if you are not operating as a business,
you would see no value in this offer and that is your prerogative. If you
are operating as a business, you would. My own band played at this very
event 4 years ago and since then the contacts I have made and the tens of
thousands of dollars in gigs we have secured since that time have more than
made up for the few hours of donated time me and my 11 other band-mates
gave. I wanted to offer the same opportunity to another local act. 

I trust that this explains our position and I wish you all the best of luck
with your musical pursuits.

Best wishes,

Alison


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## devnulljp

Are we still playing corporate buzzword bullshit bingo?

I especially liked: "Special verbal acknowledgement during Gala ($500 value)"
i.e. "Let's give a big hand to the band folks." There's a dollar value associated with that? How...sad.
We badly need Bill Hicks back.


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## rollingdam

my favorite part of her response was:

I am a
musician – a professional vocalist that has been performing for many, many
years in and around the Ottawa area. I am also a business professional. It
is because of these two things that I am uniquely qualified to respond to
your concerns.


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## Guest

Paul said:


> The act of saying your name out loud would normally cost you $500.00. I'm gonna have to start charging you guys money everytime I quote one of you in my replys.


Ka CHING! :smile:

FWIW I got pretty much the same reply from her as well. I'm not sure I've got the conviction to do more than complain to her. I did send the guys at theottawamusician.com a similar email saying these sorts of posts don't actually help musicians in Ottawa. They help The Ottawa Chamber of Commerce, and them alone.


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## shoretyus

Logo displayed on a continuous loop “Power Point” presentation
shown continuously during dinner and Awards Gala. ($1000 value)


I would do that for $700 .............. click walk away.....


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## Guest

I left it with:


> an I get a list of businesses at this "Business Elite" event then? Because any business that thinks its okay to enjoy free entertainment while they pat themselves on the back for being "Business Elite" is not a business that's going to be getting any of my money.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> - Ian


We'll see where that goes I guess...


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## greco

rollingdam said:


> One final thought-someone should put together a package featuring latin,jazz and other easy listening stuff-then you show up and play Death metal.


I love this...my first thought was to just suggest playing out of tune and with no rhythm/out of time, etc.

.....but this is CLASSIC :rockon2:

Dave


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## guitarman2

greco said:


> I love this...my first thought was to just suggest playing out of tune and with no rhythm/out of time, etc.
> 
> Dave


I thought that was death metal.


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## dolphinstreet

The Ottawa Chamber of Commerce seem to be cheap bastards - I would never respond to an ad that stupid. Pay for entertainment, morons!


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## zontar

Here's my question--how many of these fine business men & women will get a tax deduction out of their sponsorship?


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## Budda

I've been paid for 2 gigs out of the probably 15-20 i've played in my career.

I've helped set up and take down for a good chunk of shows i've played, as well as let bands borrow my amp.

all that said, i havent this thread, just thought i'd say that lol.


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## devnulljp

Isn't there a musician's union in Canada? Seems they might like to chime in. 
The idea of getting a list of businesses involved and letting them know you're not happy is also good.
Anyone have any good press contacts? (paging faracaster...). Who wrote that nice piece on the dip in the vintage guitar market a while back?

I like the idea of turning up though with your guitars all tuned in different alt tunings but playing as though you were in standard. They'd pull the plug pretty quick though...you could always just play Rawhide over and over too.


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## Chito

What a shame for someone who considers herself part of the Ottawa music scene. 

I guess "$4,500" wasn't enough for her to do her "COUGAR" act. http://www.cougarchickrock.com/


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## devnulljp

Chito said:


> What a shame for someone who considers herself part of the Ottawa music scene.
> 
> I guess "$4,500" wasn't enough for her to do her "COUGAR" act. http://www.cougarchickrock.com/


Oh.My.Hell.

Note that she has a bookings page where someone should they so desire can book the band to play their corporate party...just saying
http://www.cougarchickrock.com/bookings.htm


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## sysexguy

How does revenue Canada feel about a $4500 under the table "deal"? (not that I like those bastards:smilie_flagge17 + all the other more respectable (?) businesses used as anchors in her reply to justify this practice.

Andy


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## bagpipe

Chito said:


> What a shame for someone who considers herself part of the Ottawa music scene.
> 
> I guess "$4,500" wasn't enough for her to do her "COUGAR" act. http://www.cougarchickrock.com/


Yikes ! 

http://www.cougarchickrock.com/bios.htm


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## guitarman2

I see a lot of whining and complaining about someone looking for free entertainment. If that is what they want to do and there are bands willing to do it then I see no problem. This is the problem with Union mentality. They figure they can force everyone to bend to their way of thinking. If you don't want to play for free then "DON'T". 
They put an offer on the table that they feel has a monetary value. If you feel it doesn't then don't play for them. Free enterprise. Who your really mad at are the musicians who will play the gig for no cash value. If a band feels its of value and benefit to them then that is their right. This is why I don't believe in unions. If a band wants to play a gig for free then that is their right. The truly talented musicians will be in demand and get the compensation they deserve. The rest of the union mentality will continue to cry fowl and look for a free ride.


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## Guest

Chito said:


> What a shame for someone who considers herself part of the Ottawa music scene.
> 
> I guess "$4,500" wasn't enough for her to do her "COUGAR" act. http://www.cougarchickrock.com/


Oh my that is just....awesome. Have you run in to here in the cover band circuit around here?


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## Guest

guitarman2 said:


> Who your really mad at are the musicians who will play the gig for no cash value.


Oh definitely. I made that clear in my first post.



> If a band feels its of value and benefit to them then that is their right. This is why I don't believe in unions. If a band wants to play a gig for free then that is their right. The truly talented musicians will be in demand and get the compensation they deserve. The rest of the union mentality will continue to cry fowl and look for a free ride.


The trouble is: this isn't just a you-do-what-you-want situation. You degrade the entire market in taking free gigs. We have a similar set of rules in the Professional Engineers Ontario association; fees for engineering services aren't set by the association, but you can be held liable for misconduct if you display willful negligence in your billing and estimates. It's a professional respect thing, and it works very well.


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## allthumbs56

Ya know .... I didn't have as much of a problem with the original ad as I do with her email response. It seems that she's taking a very condescending position. I mean, trying to sell the "opportunity" as having a value of $4500 is just nonsense. With 600 attendees, they are probably paying 25+ G's for the hall/meal. I doubt that they are offering the caterer "in-kind" exposure in return for the meal/hall.

Having said that, the world is full of musicians willing to play for free - and it's up to them if they want to. Just don't insult their intelligence by telling them they're getting a $4500 value ..... that's just wrong on several levels.

What would be wrong with paying them $500 AND spreading their name around a bit. It's still a relatively small cost and everyone would have been happy.


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## guitarman2

allthumbs56 said:


> Having said that, the world is full of musicians willing to play for free - and it's up to them if they want to. Just don't insult their intelligence by telling them they're getting a $4500 value ..... that's just wrong on several levels.


It is their right to accept that they are getting a $4,500 value if that is what they want to believe. That is what this world is all about. You have to separate the legitimate from wolves in sheep's clothing. If you need a union to do that for you then join the musician's union (who I think are the biggest wolf in sheep's clothing) and play the gig for scale.
I get a little annoyed with people who think they can go around dictating what choices you should make. Musicians who play for free won't degrade the market for those truly talented and in demand. If you're neither of those maybe you should play for free.


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## Guest

guitarman2 said:


> I get a little annoyed with people who think they can go around dictating what choices you should make. Musicians who play for free won't degrade the market for those truly talented and in demand. If you're neither of those maybe you should play for free.


No one is _dictating_ anything, merely expressing the opinion that you do more damage than good to yourself and musicians in general if you take that gig. Especially considering the _context_ of the event and the request: "business elite" not willing to pay for anything. And we're having a lovely laugh at Ms. Cougar too boot.

If any of this annoys you feel free to stop participating at any time. No one's making you read through it all.


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## guitarman2

iaresee said:


> No one is _dictating_ anything, merely expressing the opinion that you do more damage than good to yourself and musicians in general if you take that gig. Especially considering the _context_ of the event and the request: "business elite" not willing to pay for anything. And we're having a lovely laugh at Ms. Cougar too boot.
> 
> If any of this annoys you feel free to stop participating at any time. No one's making you read through it all.


These are your opinions that you and others express in a very strong, intimidating way. As I said before. The talented in demand musicians do not worry.


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## Guest

guitarman2 said:


> As I said before. The talented in demand musicians do not worry.


And that, I'm afraid, is your opinion. It does not hold with my experience and the experiences of my full-time musician friends, all of whom are very talented and very much in demand (good oboe players are hard to find). Paul, apparently, concurs. You are in the minority with your opinion here but speak as if you are not. Talent doesn't provide you with job safety. I am a talented engineer and yet a looming depression worries me. By your logic, I should not fear for my job. That is absolutely untrue.



> These are your opinions that you and others express in a very strong, intimidating way.


What, pray tell, do you find intimidating about words on a screen? No one is claiming retribution will be exacted against anyone who takes that gig. Indeed: no one even passed judgment on you after you chimed in to say you think it's a good idea and do free gigs yourself. I don't think you'll find a more affable room of people discussing this matter than those here in the thread. Every thread isn't about winning people over to your point of view. It's okay to disagree. I certainly don't think less of you or anyone else because you don't agree with my opinions or share my points of view. It's a pity you think less of us (you did call us "dictators") because we don't agree whole heatedly with you.


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## guitarman2

Paul said:


> Musician who play for free are in a strong position to dictate what choices are available to be made by the rest of us. They absolutely degrade the market by driving down both price and value. Here in Brantford I have mixed feelings about all of the entertainment programming at Harmony Sq. The cith had a budget of $9000.00 for all entertainment from May 01 to Dec. 31 this year. That had to cover the costs of musicians, actors, dancers, the projection equipment for movie nights, the licencing for the movies, etc. While the crowds have been good and the response very positive, I fear that we are teaching everyone in Brantford that entertainment is free. Why would anyone buy a ticket for a great show at the Sanderson Center when a very good show is free across the road?
> 
> The Ottawa event is NOT a charitable fundraiser in any sense. It is a bunch of for profit companies getting together to celebrate another year of profit. Asking for talented musicians to work in exchange for inflated values of services "in kind" is an insult to working artists in all fields of art. The value of the Rogers rebroadcasts is a joke, as Rogers will not broadcast the music portion, as they don't want to pay music licensing fees. There may be a "music provided by" credit on the show, but there won't be any music to hear.
> 
> The Ottawa Chamber of Commerce needs to be held up to a very bright light on this, and I'm plugging in the halogen spot lights today.


Musicians play for a variety of reasons. There are musicians in Nashville that play for tips and at the end of the night can't cover their parking expenses. Many of these musicians would put anyone to shame on this board. So why do they do it? I guess they see the value in self promotion and hopefully they will get noticed. Probably 80% of them won't. 
If the Chamber of commerce wants to put a non cash value on this and call it advertising dollars and a band wants to accept that as tender then the band really isn't playing for free. If they want to agree that its a $4,500 value, then again that is the choice of the musicians. When they accept it at that value it becomes that value. Its up to the band to know what to do with it after. For example if they accept that its worth playing for the contacts then they better have the skill and know how to make that work for them. If they don't then they'll have flushed the opportunity. Much like if they had been paid $4,500 and lost it all at the casino. If you or any other musicians feel it is a scam then don't play it. Just don't try to tell me what I can accept as compensation for a gig. And you would be doing this by trying to hang the tag that I degraded it for all other musicians. This would only be your opinion and not fact. I am not defending the chamber of commerce. I'm simply stating its the right of any musician to accept this gig if they feel that it is of the benefit that is promised. Its every musicians right to accept what they feel fair compensation. Or you can join the musicians union and play for scale.


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## allthumbs56

guitarman2 said:


> These are your opinions that you and others express in a very strong, intimidating way. As I said before. The talented in demand musicians do not worry.


There are those of us who see what we do as having value....... and those who don't. 

I'm one of the former and I've never hurt for bookings. Playing for free - or "exposure" ..... been there and done that - it's a mug's game.


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## guitarman2

allthumbs56 said:


> There are those of us who see what we do as having value....... and those who don't.
> 
> I'm one of the former and I've never hurt for bookings. Playing for free - or "exposure" ..... been there and done that - it's a mug's game.



I agree as I said earlier. I quit a band that not only wanted me to play for free but help pay for the production of the free concert. I saw no value for me and refused to do it. The Ottawa chamber of commerce is offering a value. Whether you believe it is legitimately worth $4,500 is totally irrelevant as you are not tendering for it.


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## guitarman2

iaresee said:


> You are in the minority with your opinion here but speak as if you are not.


#1 sign of union mentality. Show them how outnumbered they are then use it to your advantage. I don't care if I'm outnumbered. Thats sometimes the penalty for having your own mind.



iaresee said:


> What, pray tell, do you find intimidating about words on a screen? No one is claiming retribution will be exacted against anyone who takes that gig.


I find your idea of intimidation quite narrow. It doesn't have to be some thug breaking down your door for the loan shark money. Your strong opinions can cause others that may feel differently not to speak their minds or they may look foolish. This is intimidation.




iaresee said:


> Indeed: no one even passed judgment on you after you chimed in to say you think it's a good idea and do free gigs yourself.


You need to go to reading school for kids that don't read good. I did mention twice now that I quit a band that wanted me to do a free gig. Each and every situation requires careful consideration. In the end it is up to the individual to weigh out the pros and cons for themselves if providing a service for compensation other than a monetary value. 
Those that feel compelled to write letters or emails against an organization that chooses to seek out entertainment for pay other than cash, go ahead. I just don't see how that harms me. I have turned down gigs that have offered cash. Sometimes I feel it is not enough cash and not worth my time. So I don't see how you've come to the conclusion that I go around doing free gigs.


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## Crossroads

As someone who has worked in business for too long to remember...

Is this any different than going to any other local business and asking for a donation or a sponsorship...( money or the ply of your trade ).

I have seen charity events and such with prizes that have been donated by local painters, and other business.

Is that "we" play music that make us different than someone that fixes your car and donates to an event in terms of money,product or his time...

"playing for nothing" would entail that you go in ... set up and play....
no acknowlegement and no value in return... the value the Ottawa Chamber is offering may well be percieved differently by different individuals... 

But I don't see the difference between a band "donating" their time versus the florist donating floral arrangements... if there is please let me know the difference.


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## Guest

guitarman2 said:


> You need to go to reading school for kids that don't read good.


By all means: when you have nothing valuable left to add to a conversation, resort to personal attacks.

Look: we don't agree. That's the end of it. What's left to say here? Nothing.


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## guitarman2

Crossroads said:


> As someone who has worked in business for too long to remember...
> 
> Is this any different than going to any other local business and asking for a donation or a sponsorship...( money or the ply of your trade ).
> 
> I have seen charity events and such with prizes that have been donated by local painters, and other business.
> 
> Is that "we" play music that make us different than someone that fixes your car and donates to an event in terms of money,product or his time...
> 
> "playing for nothing" would entail that you go in ... set up and play....
> no acknowlegement and no value in return... the value the Ottawa Chamber is offering may well be percieved differently by different individuals...
> 
> But I don't see the difference between a band "donating" their time versus the florist donating floral arrangements... if there is please let me know the difference.


I see the point your trying to make but I think it gets a little confused by talking both about donating time or playing music for a value other than cash. I think this thread is more about certain people perceiving that the Ottawa Chamber of Commerce trying to pull the wool over musicians eyes. From what I see they are offering payment in the form of advertising for which they attach a monetary value. So the point of contention here is whether certain individuals feel the value is ridiculously inflated or is worth what they say. To me this is no different then whether its worth playing a gig for $100 for the night or $150 for the night. Its up to each individual musician to decide that for them self. I don't consider it playing for nothing. If you belong to the musicians union then you would follow there guide lines I suppose.


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## guitarman2

iaresee said:


> By all means: when you have nothing valuable left to add to a conversation, resort to personal attacks.
> 
> I'm not even sure why you're still talking: you stated an opinion, I stated an opinion. Neither of us agree with each other. You keep coming back to call me names and take pokes at me. Why is that?



If that is the only thing you get out of my post then you prove my point.


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## bagpipe

guitarman2 said:


> If that is the only thing you get out of my post then you prove my point.


Really? Maybe you should explain your point a little more clearly then (without the insults), because I dont see it either.


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## guitarman2

bagpipe said:


> Really? Maybe you should explain your point a little more clearly then (without the insults), because I dont see it either.



Okay here I'll quote it for you and you can just go through point by point and tell me what you didn't comprehend. 



> Each and every situation requires careful consideration. In the end it is up to the individual to weigh out the pros and cons for themselves if providing a service for compensation other than a monetary value.
> Those that feel compelled to write letters or emails against an organization that chooses to seek out entertainment for pay other than cash, go ahead. I just don't see how that harms me. I have turned down gigs that have offered cash. Sometimes I feel it is not enough cash and not worth my time. So I don't see how you've come to the conclusion that I go around doing free gigs.


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## Guest

guitarman2 said:


> If that is the only thing you get out of my post then you prove my point.


Alright, let me summarize what I have taken from our conversation thus far so there is no need for you to guess about what it is or isn't I have understood from your posts.

If a musician was to ask each of us, "Should I apply to this Ottawa Chamber of Commerce gig?"...

I would say:
No. The premise is laughable: business elite getting together to congratulate themselves but not wanting to pay for the gathering. You're not going to get any useful exposure out of the gig. You devalue musical acts in general by working for free in a case like this, where money could be found to pay you. Keep looking, maybe try a charity event instead.​
And you would say:
If you think the gig is going to offer you some non-monetary value like exposure or even experience doing a corporate background music gig: take it. Your actions have no effect on anyone else in your industry. We stand and fall on our own merits alone.​
Have I got that right? I see that as a disagreement. A diametrically opposed set of viewpoints on the issue, unlikely to be resolved.


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## guitarman2

iaresee said:


> Alright, let me summarize what I have taken from our conversation thus far so there is no need for you to guess about what it is or isn't I have understood from your posts.
> 
> If a musician was to ask each of us, "Should I apply to this Ottawa Chamber of Commerce gig?"...
> 
> I would say:
> No. The premise is laughable: business elite getting together to congratulate themselves but not wanting to pay for the gathering. You're not going to get any useful exposure out of the gig. You devalue musical acts in general by working for free in a case like this, where money could be found to pay you. Keep looking, maybe try a charity event instead.​
> And you would say:
> If you think the gig is going to offer you some non-monetary value like exposure or even experience doing a corporate background music gig: take it. Your actions have no effect on anyone else in your industry. We stand and fall on our own merits alone.​
> Have I got that right? I see that as a disagreement. A diametrically opposed set of viewpoints on the issue, unlikely to be resolved.


I have not rendered an opinion on whether the chamber of commerce method of compensation is fair or not as I think its irrelevant to the point I am making. It may very well not be for you it may very well be for someone else. For a musician trying to get those corporate type gigs that play to this type of audience it may very well be a value to consider. What you are trying to do is make this cookie cutter all across the board. Like all musicians are equal and need to be judged on exactly the same conditions. This is union thinking to the worst degree. We are all equal and don't stand and fall on our own merits. Your darn right we do. 
I can't see the problem with someone making an offer and someone turning it down or taking it. I've turned down plenty of offers in the 27 years I've played.


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## RIFF WRATH

dare I even comment.........having followed this thread so far.......the nagging thing in my mind is........what happens when Dec.31/08 comes around.............does the Chamber of Commerce present the performers with documentation showing them to have be paid (the equivalent of) $4,500.00.........said $ to be claimed on the appropriate income tax forms.........if so then, the band is being compensated for their performance.........if no such documentation is forthcoming then people, this is a free gig...period......


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## allthumbs56

As I said before, the problem I have is with the overinflation of the "value" - $500 for recognising the band over the P/A is ludicrous. It reminds me of those late-night infomercials where they say "It's a $500 value for only three payments of $19.99". It's not - but somebody will get suckered in.

Seriously, the gig should probably pay somewhere between $400 - $800 dollars. So if they're really giving you $4500 worth of exposure for a $400 gig then it should be YOU getting the business awards for making such a great deal. Conversely, if she can convince you that playing for free is really worth $4500 then I think it's her that deserves the award.


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## guitarman2

RIFF WRATH said:


> dare I even comment.........having followed this thread so far.......the nagging thing in my mind is........what happens when Dec.31/08 comes around.............does the Chamber of Commerce present the performers with documentation showing them to have be paid (the equivalent of) $4,500.00.........said $ to be claimed on the appropriate income tax forms.........if so then, the band is being compensated for their performance.........if no such documentation is forthcoming then people, this is a free gig...period......



Forget the tax documentation as that wouldn't do anything for me. If you do the gig and do not harvest anything from contacts as promised, then the gig would have been for free. I sure would like to hear how past musicians have made out doing this gig.


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## bagpipe

guitarman2 said:


> Forget the tax documentation as that wouldn't do anything for me. If you do the gig and do not harvest anything from contacts as promised, then the gig would have been for free. I sure would like to hear how past musicians have made out doing this gig.


If you look back at post #13 in this thread, you'll see the email reply which we all got from the organiser, which contains some of that information. Heres the relevant part (I call bullshit on it, but hey, thats just me):

"My own band played at this very event 4 years ago and since then the contacts I have made and the tens of thousands of dollars in gigs we have secured since that time have more than made up for the few hours of donated time me and my 11 other band-mates gave. I wanted to offer the same opportunity to another local act. "


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## allthumbs56

Paul said:


> OK.....a 12 piece band, tens of thousands of dollars of gigs......that's 5 or 6 jobs over 4 years.


According to their website, they're 7 pieces ..... and they have 2 gigs booked for the rest of the year.

Perhaps it was through the gig that she got the job working for the Chamber and she counts that part of the income. Regardless, she's pretty slick. 

The band needs a sign around their necks "Will work for advertising".


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## guitarman2

Paul said:


> The question I'm asking of you is this:
> 
> While I agree that just about any musician has the freedom and self-determination to accept the job as offered by the Ottawa Chamber of Commerce, do you believe that the Chamber is offering $4500.00 of real value? Do you believe that "Let's give a nice hand for the band" is worth $500.00?



For me this is not an acceptable form of payment for my services. For me it is not worth $4,500. As a 4 piece band I'd do the gig for $600 minimum preferably $800 as long as I didn't have to travel more than 1 hour. Those are my stipulations. Less than that and I stay home to spend time with my grand children or go golfing.
But I;m not going to judge a band that decides that it is worth it to them and can make the contacts work for them. 
I know that I had a chance to play for a band that did only corporate gigs and made between $1,000 to 2,000 a month for playing part time. So I do know there is money to be made in the corporate gig world. I only turned it down because the material that these types of bands have to play is not to my liking. At my age and after all the years I've played I'd rather play what I enjoy for half the money.


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## GuitarsCanada

bagpipe said:


> Yikes !
> 
> http://www.cougarchickrock.com/bios.htm


You have to be kidding.. largetongue


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## guitarman2

Paul said:


> We'll pretend travel is irrelevant here. If it was a local job, I think think your $600.00 is low. This isn't a club or bar gig. For a 300 guest wedding, a typical DJ will bill $1500.00 to $2000.00. I'm not sure how much of that $2000.00 gets kicked back to the wedding planner and/or the venue, but I'm cynical enough to believe that some does.
> 
> I wonder if there are any full-time-make-all-their-money-from-playing-and-none-from-teaching-or-a-day-job musicians on the board. I'd love to know what they think. I've got a friend who fits the above over-hyphenated category, and I KNOW that he knows the Ottawa offer is bunk.



Yeas you're right. Given the circumstances the $600 I quoted was low. I am thinking in terms of my situation where we are playing bar, legion dance gigs where the setups are quick and easy. I have a house gig in Brampton every other Saturday afternoon, where each of us gets $150 to show up with our amp and guitar. The PA and everything else is their complete with sound man. We play for 3 hours. I consider this pretty good. I play with the same 2 bands but I consider my self more free lancing as there is very little personal investment for me. I am looking for that one band that wants to put together a good unit. When that does happen my expectations will be much higher for compensation.


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## Beatles

Just like to add my 2 cents...

1) The chamber of commerce wants an "in kind" contributon from a talented group of musicians and would be "recognized" as Entertainmnet Sponsors. To me, "in kind" means FREE, regardless of how they are trying to package it. 

2) They are looking for a local jazz or Latin trio or quartet. I'm not into that genre, and unfortuately do I know anyone who is. I would be interested to know the experiences of these musicians to get their take on playing a gig of this type. 

3) In response to the email response received from Alison representing the chamber, she claims that she is a professional vocalist who has been performing for many many years, and that she is also a business professional, and it is because of these two things that she is uniquely qualified to respond to your concerns. Well excuse f**king me. I find that very insulting. I think that most of the members on this board have the same, if not more qualifications than this nitwit to see through the BS she is handing out. 

4) Again in her response, she states that they have secured floral, dinner, award, and photography sponsorships. And all these businesses go "out of pocket" in either a time or product contribution. I seriously doubt that these sponsors go out of pocket, as they have the opportunity of write offs at tax time. Not necessarily so with with musicians. 

5) Getting back to the ad......

"eligible (note the word is eligible) for many brand placement opportunities including: name in evening's program, logo (if applicable) on Power Point presentation of sponsors looped throughout the evening, thanks and recognition during the Awards ceremony and the chance to place business cards or promotional items at each table or place setting". Uh I thought most bands self promote at their gigs anyway, doing exactly this. 

6) "If you are not operating as a business you would see no value in this offer, and that is your prerogative. If you were operating as a business, you would". So why not issue the band a tax receipt as a charitable donation??? I guess I just don't like the condesending tone of her reply.

7) "My own band played at this very event 4 years ago" So why are you farming it out now?? maybe she doesn't see a business opportunity?

8) Tens of thousands in gigs?? hmmmm. 

9) · Logo displayed on a continuous loop “Power Point” presentation
shown continuously during dinner and Awards Gala. ($1000 value)

· Name or Logo displayed in Evening Programs ($500 value)

· Special verbal acknowledgement during Gala ($500 value)

· Recognition in the special Business Achievement Awards features
that appear in the Ottawa Citizen both prior to and following the Awards
Gala.($1000 value)

· A full broadcast of the Gala is shown on several occasions
throughout the year by Rogers Television, during which your logo and thanks
will be mentioned in the course of the broadcast to the television viewing
audience ($1500 value)

Telling Alison and the Chamber of Commerce to stick it up their ying yang - priceless.


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## allthumbs56

So I'm assuming that none of our members from the nation's capital are interested?


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## shoretyus

allthumbs56 said:


> So I'm assuming that none of our members from the nation's capital are interested?


I'd be afraid of the cougar's.


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## rollingdam

I'd like to go there just to boo and heckle-but $10 cover charge?

http://www.greenfieldspub.ca/cal.php?d=2008-11-21


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## pattste

Guys,

This has to be one of the best threads ever on this board.

Whoever plays this gig for free proves that there's a sucker born every minute. I seriously doubt that anyone else is providing services or products completely free of charge in exchange for visibility at this event, despite her claims. Only musicians it seems are ever expected to do that.


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## zontar

Beatles said:


> 4) Again in her response, she states that they have secured floral, dinner, award, and photography sponsorships. And all these businesses go "out of pocket" in either a time or product contribution. I seriously doubt that these sponsors go out of pocket, as they have the opportunity of write offs at tax time. Not necessarily so with with musicians.


I asked about this way back in the thread, and I believe someone else mentioned it as well.

It is certainly a factor.

The floral arrangements will be writeoffs, the dinner will be a writeoff, etc, etc.

I agree on the "Not necessarily so with with musicians." Especially if they get amateurs.

Do any of the members here who get paid for their music and file income tax on those earnings know how that would work for them? I'm just wondering. I'm not saying it justifies this ad, I get the feeling the musicians would be hosed--especially if they have to claim the $4500 benefit on their taxes--which would really suck, especially for amateurs.


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## devnulljp

shoretyus said:


> I'd be afraid of the cougar's.


Afraid of the cougar's what?


pattste said:


> Only musicians it seems are ever expected to do that.


Oh no, they expect it of artists too.


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## allthumbs56

zontar said:


> I asked about this way back in the thread, and I believe someone else mentioned it as well.
> 
> It is certainly a factor.
> 
> The floral arrangements will be writeoffs, the dinner will be a writeoff, etc, etc.
> 
> I agree on the "Not necessarily so with with musicians." Especially if they get amateurs.
> 
> Do any of the members here who get paid for their music and file income tax on those earnings know how that would work for them? I'm just wondering. I'm not saying it justifies this ad, I get the feeling the musicians would be hosed--especially if they have to claim the $4500 benefit on their taxes--which would really suck, especially for amateurs.


I work in public accounting. No caterer could afford to write off meals for 600. No florist would donate arrangements for each table either - we're talking thousands of real dollars out of their pockets to do so. I would be more inclined to suspect that the caterer has provided a small discount per plate and the florist may have provided 2 arrangements for the head table - something along those lines. Theye are probably all members of the Commerce too. The largest time donation I have seen was for $3000 by a flier for an airshow. All of his expenses were (quite excessively) covered by the organizer.

From an accounting point of view, you can wash your costs (for those of you who run your bands like a business) ..... except that an audit would never let you expense $4500 - regardless of what the receipt says - the CRA is a little sensitive to "donation scams" (ie. overinflated art/pharmaceuticals etc.) these days.


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## Mooh

Won't most of the participants be collecting a salary like usual? Just because they're attending this sort of event doesn't mean they don't get the day's pay, whether they're paid by someone else or paid by themselves. The musicians don't fall into this catagory. The de-evolution of music performance from paid work to unpaid advertising is not beneficial the the larger music community, or ultimately to the group who takes this job. And in spite of how the promoters try to make it sound, it is not revenue neutral. Gigging costs money, insurance, gas, parking, wear and tear on gear, rentals, meals, accommodations, wardrobe, never mind the time in labour (performance, roadying one's self, book-keeping and practice) and the time away from other pursuits (family life, other paid jobs, etc).

Peace, Mooh.


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## allthumbs56

Mooh said:


> Won't most of the participants be collecting a salary like usual? Just because they're attending this sort of event doesn't mean they don't get the day's pay, whether they're paid by someone else or paid by themselves. The musicians don't fall into this catagory. The de-evolution of music performance from paid work to unpaid advertising is not beneficial the the larger music community, or ultimately to the group who takes this job. And in spite of how the promoters try to make it sound, it is not revenue neutral. Gigging costs money, insurance, gas, parking, wear and tear on gear, rentals, meals, accommodations, wardrobe, never mind the time in labour (performance, roadying one's self, book-keeping and practice) and the time away from other pursuits (family life, other paid jobs, etc).
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


Most are probably smaller business owners - there to "network" (one of those hated buzzwords) and maybe drink too much.

The common thread here is that practices like this devalue the service provided and continue to reinforce how little value most businesses place on entertainment.

If the follow-up would have been something like; "We will cover all reasonable costs, provide meals and drinks, a small gratuity, AND ensure that the act receives ample recognition for their generous contribution ..... " it would have been far more palatable.


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## zontar

allthumbs56 said:


> I work in public accounting. No caterer could afford to write off meals for 600. No florist would donate arrangements for each table either - we're talking thousands of real dollars out of their pockets to do so. I would be more inclined to suspect that the caterer has provided a small discount per plate and the florist may have provided 2 arrangements for the head table - something along those lines. Theye are probably all members of the Commerce too. The largest time donation I have seen was for $3000 by a flier for an airshow. All of his expenses were (quite excessively) covered by the organizer.
> 
> From an accounting point of view, you can wash your costs (for those of you who run your bands like a business) ..... except that an audit would never let you expense $4500 - regardless of what the receipt says - the CRA is a little sensitive to "donation scams" (ie. overinflated art/pharmaceuticals etc.) these days.


Thanks--that clears it up--and makes this look like a bigger ripoff if I understand you correctly.


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## bscott

If it is such a "prime" gig then why isn't she playing it herself??


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## allthumbs56

bscott said:


> If it is such a "prime" gig then why isn't she playing it herself??


Because she already got all the contacts and money she could possibly use from four years ago and it just makes her feel all warm at the thought of extending this opportunity to someone less fortunate.

Besides, she's a Cougar - on the prowl for naive, appreciative young guitar players to sink her claws into ......................yuck


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## Robboman

My 2 bits:

1). I wouldn't take this gig. 
2). I can't blame her for asking. 
3). I have no doubt whatsoever she'll get multiple replies from bands.

Does it piss me off? Sure, but again it's not her fault. Musicians willing to play for free are to blame. They inevitably lower the bar for all of us.

Future gig offers that come from the 'exposure' you get playing free are likely to be more offers to play free, again for the 'exposure'. I call BS on the whole thing. Anyone trying to hire the band after seeing them at this event are going to know they played for free so they can't be worth much.


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## NB-SK

devnulljp said:


> I'm in. :rockon2::rockon2::rockon2:
> But I think a Rage Against the Machine cover band would be funnier.


LOL. That or you could prepare a package of radio-friendly contemporary jazz...and then channel Sun Ra at the show.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=3SsBtfuSDxw


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## Steadfastly

rollingdam said:


> One final thought-someone should put together a package featuring latin,jazz and other easy listening stuff-then you show up and play Death metal.


Or go and just don't play or don't show up or send in some teenagers just starting out. I hate cheapskates.


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