# Bell Canada - Thieves?



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Yes, I would say so. These people just keep finding more ways to screw people over. I used them for our business phone and internet 3.5 years ago when we opened up. No choice as cable was not ran to the building at the time. This week I called them to make sure that my original 3 year contract had expired as Cogeco has now installed a feeder to the building and they are like $90 cheaper a month. So Bell tells me that our contract "Automatically" renewed 4 days ago. Apparently we were supposed to have called them within a 30 day period to advise them we wanted to go monthly? What kind of a scam is this? I gave no verbal or written authorization to renew any contract.

After fighting with them for 2 hours on the phone I have filed a complaint with the CCTS. They want over $700 as well to cancel it. What a pack of thieves.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Yes, I would say so. These people just keep finding more ways to screw people over. I used them for our business phone and internet 3.5 years ago when we opened up. No choice as cable was not ran to the building at the time. This week I called them to make sure that my original 3 year contract had expired as Cogeco has now installed a feeder to the building and they are like $90 cheaper a month. So Bell tells me that our contract "Automatically" renewed 4 days ago. Apparently we were supposed to have called them within a 30 day period to advise them we wanted to go monthly? What kind of a scam is this? I gave no verbal or written authorization to renew any contract.
> 
> After fighting with them for 2 hours on the phone I have filed a complaint with the CCTS. They want over $700 as well to cancel it. What a pack of thieves.


Since you did'nt sign...it's void...there was a lawsuit her again't videotron..and we won..


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

al3d said:


> Since you did'nt sign...it's void...there was a lawsuit her again't videotron..and we won..


Thats my position but they won't budge. See what they say now that I have filed a complaint with the CCTS


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## Blues Jr (Aug 14, 2007)

Scumbags. I'll never use Bell again.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

*We had EXACTLY the same thing happen to us when we closed our business (the bill was for about $550.00).
*
I went all the way "to the top" fighting Bell on this, and I wasn't very nice at all on the phone 
(I'm generally laid back and polite, etc)

*They will refer you to a bill/statement that you got reminding you (in small print) that your automatic renewal is coming up and it is your responsibility to contact them to advise them of your wish to change. *

When I asked what would happen if I refused to pay...they indicated that it would be sent to a collection agency.

In the end, after a few thousand calls (j/k....but it seemed that way) they reduced the bill.

Good Luck with this one. Keep us posted.

Cheers

Dave


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

greco said:


> *We had EXACTLY the same thing happen to us when we closed our business (the bill was for about $550.00).
> *
> I went all the way "to the top" fighting Bell on this, and I wasn't very nice at all on the phone
> (I'm generally laid back and polite, etc)
> ...


Curious if you lodged an official complaint with the CCTS and what the outcome of that was. Or did you go solo?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Curious if you lodged an official complaint with the CCTS and what the outcome of that was. Or did you go solo?


I didn't lodge an official complaint through any other agency....I just kept calling and asking for the manager/supervisor of the person I was talking to until it seemed as though they would not let me talk to anyone in a "higher" position than what I had managed to achieve. 

IIRC, I went "upwards" through maybe 5 levels...only because I insisted and kept saying that I would refuse to pay and wanted to talk to someone with the authority to eliminate this charge. 

In the end, I will never know actually how "far up" the "management chain" I actually got. I also had the support of a person who had worked for Bell (and did not have fond memories of his employer...LOL), and he advised me to pursue it this way. It has been over a year now since my involvement with this issue, so the details are a bit hard to remember.

You cannot use the concept that the contract is null and void due to their lack of your signature agreeing to it, as they have your signature on the ORIGINAL contract and have notified you (if you read each bill CAREFULLY..I never did) that the automatic renewal is about to take place and it is your responsibility to contact them. 

Have a close look at the last 3 or 4 bills (or more) you have received from them...one should have this notification.
Bell will reference this....FOR SURE !!

Hope this helps.

I can dig the bill out of our records if you want to know the wording on it.

Cheers

Dave


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Yes. I ended up finding a bill with that on it. We will see what the CCTS say's. I am sure I am not the first one that has filed a similar complaint. They may get back to me and say tough luck. Will keep you posted


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Arrrrrrrrrrr! String 'em from the highest yard arm! Arrrrrrrrrrr!


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## aftermidnight (Oct 11, 2009)

First thing that came to my mind .....

"*Negative option billing *is a business practice in which goods or services are provided automatically, and the customer must either pay for the service or specifically decline it in advance of billing." ....... Wikipedia - FCC Memorandum opinion and order, 1996 ...... a practice outlawed by the Ontario government in July 2005.

If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck ..... it might just be a duck!


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

aftermidnight said:


> First thing that came to my mind .....
> 
> "*Negative option billing *is a business practice in which goods or services are provided automatically, and the customer must either pay for the service or specifically decline it in advance of billing." ....... Wikipedia - FCC Memorandum opinion and order, 1996 ...... a practice outlawed by the Ontario government in July 2005.
> 
> If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck ..... it might just be a duck!


I think that one might be more in line with the old "you get a free month, but if you don't call us before the end of the 30 days we will start billing you" deal. But its damn close


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

What a Communistic and pathetic approach to doing buisness! Must be because of the competition that has sprung up over the last decade or so. I dropped them about 5 years ago and never looked Back!

I would notify your local MP. This may help put some pressure on them to let you go.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

al3d said:


> Since you did'nt sign...it's void...there was a lawsuit her again't videotron..and we won..


One more great thing about Quebec. These types of "contracts" are simply not legal in QC. When I moved here and hooked up to Bell, they were talking "contract this" and "contract that" but as soon as the found out the hook up was for a Quebec residence there was no more talk of contracts.

Vive la Quebec (is that correct? LOL)

TG


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> ...... But its damn close


It was not close enough for me to convince them.

*"If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck ..... it might just be a duck!".*..or redesigned by Bell to be a goose.... that qualifies as being ALMOST a duck....but just a weeee bit different. 

Cheers

Dave


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Two fncking death certificates and they still refuse to change the name on the phone that was my Mum's but is now the family cottage. Call display still displays my Mum's name. The only way to change the name appears to be to cancel the account/service and reconnect, with all the usual fees. They say you can change the name, at least it's supposed to be policy, but then they refuse to do it.

The best thing about last year's tornado was it permanently removed Bell's obsolete overhead wires over my yard, the purpose of which even they couldn't figure out. Years of those lines falling and being put back up for no reason, over.

After we became disgusted with Bell and local cable we switched to a bundled service from our local internet provider (Hurontel). In ground fibreoptic net/tv/phone service, no bullshit. Then Bell practically stalked us with daily nuisnace calls and frequent mailings. Finally I threatened to initiate legal action and every time they called I called the police. 

Bastards.

Peace, Mooh.


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## aftermidnight (Oct 11, 2009)

Here is a little more info on negative option billing (and consumer rights in general) from the Ministry of Consumer Services located here ........ 

http://www.sse.gov.on.ca/mcs/en/Pages/Memberships_Negative_Billing_Options.aspxhere

_*Negative Option Billing*
There are many service arrangements, such as lawn care contracts and music clubs that are ongoing without a clear end to the contract or opportunity to renew. Consumers are expected to inform the company when they wish to cease the service.
Occasionally, companies may add serv ices or products to the arrangement without consent from the consumer, expecting payment for goods or services the consumer didn’t request. Under the Consumer Protection Act, this is illegal.
*
No Payment for Unsolicited Goods or Services*
No supplier may demand payment or suggest that a consumer must pay for any unsolicited goods or services even if the consumer is under contract with the company to receive other goods or services. The company must have the express written authorization from the consumer to bill for extra goods or services.
_
It may be a broad interpretation on my part, but it would appear there was a 'clear end to the contract' and an 'unsolicited service' was provided 'without consent from the consumer, expecting payment for goods or services the consumer didn't request'.

If this is not a clear case of negative option billing, to me, the whole thing has that same sleezy business practice vibe to it that brought on public backlash to NOB in the first place.

(As a comparison ...... I know nothing about cell phone contracts so maybe someone else will chime in here ......... but it is my understanding that cell phone contracts are usually for something like three years ...... and when the contract comes due for renewal you may be extended for a month or two so there is no disruption in the service ......... but you are not automatically locked into another long term contract ........ you need to inform them in writing of your desire to do so.)


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Good info. Here is the beauty of cell phones as well as a few other companies. Whenever you change a cell phone plan you are automatically agreeing to another three year plan. So if you change your level or add a new phone etc you re starting from scratch again


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I had a cell phone twice, two different providers, both three year contracts.

The first phone, I rarely used. I had a three year plan starting in September of one year.
Three years later, in December or so, I'm still getting bills from this provider.
I called them up and asked why my contract wasn't over, it was. 
They just start billing you monthly, so your service isn't interupted. I cancelled it.

I don't know why, but again, I got another cell phone and another three year contract.
Again, this was started in the fall of one year. They called me in the third year,
asking about renewal. This was a few months before the contract was up.
I told them that I wasn't interested, and NOT to keep billing me after the contract was up.
Around four months later, I recieve another bill. I called them up and asked what this was all about.
They gave me the same line as the last outfit, that they didn't want to interupt my service.
I asked them about the conversation months earlier when I specifically asked them not to keep billing me.
The woman on the phone was like, "Oh, I see that's it's on your file here". Well duh.

Even after specifically stating not to continue with the incessant billing, they still did.
They're all weasel money grabbing whores.

BTW, you can expect a barrage of "We want you back", and discount deals to go back with Bell.
I'm still getting the letters, over five years of not doing any business with them.
I did notice the calls stop after they got hit with the fine from the Do Not Call registery.

Both times though, with two different outfits, they went to monthly billing, not another three year contract.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Magic Jack Canada........


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Yes, I would say so. These people just keep finding more ways to screw people over. I used them for our business phone and internet 3.5 years ago when we opened up. No choice as cable was not ran to the building at the time. This week I called them to make sure that my original 3 year contract had expired as Cogeco has now installed a feeder to the building and they are like $90 cheaper a month. So Bell tells me that our contract "Automatically" renewed 4 days ago. Apparently we were supposed to have called them within a 30 day period to advise them we wanted to go monthly? What kind of a scam is this? I gave no verbal or written authorization to renew any contract.
> 
> After fighting with them for 2 hours on the phone I have filed a complaint with the CCTS. They want over $700 as well to cancel it. What a pack of thieves.


I negotiate all the contracts. for my company and 1 thing I hate is auto renewal. It is a big scam. Things like PRI's, T1's, long distance, etc have to be renegotiated all the time as they get cheaper. I normally don't like to switch providers for anything and most of the time they are willing to be competitive. But once in a while you get a company (MCI a few years ago) that doesn't care. Auto renewal is a great way for a company to lock you up so they don't have to be competitive. Now when I renegotiate anything I have them stipulate in the signed agreement that at the end of the contract it will switch to month to month.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

greco said:


> I didn't lodge an official complaint through any other agency....I just kept calling and asking for the manager/supervisor of the person I was talking to until it seemed as though they would not let me talk to anyone in a "higher" position than what I had managed to achieve.
> 
> 
> In the end, I will never know actually how "far up" the "management chain" I actually got.


Most likely you got passed to the person sitting at the computer next to the one you were talking to and on down the line. Most of the these outsourced call centers in other countries aren't too high tech.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

No Signature + No Verbal Agreement = No Contract


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Yes, I would say so. These people just keep finding more ways to screw people over. I used them for our business phone and internet 3.5 years ago when we opened up. No choice as cable was not ran to the building at the time. This week I called them to make sure that my original 3 year contract had expired as Cogeco has now installed a feeder to the building and they are like $90 cheaper a month. So Bell tells me that our contract "Automatically" renewed 4 days ago. Apparently we were supposed to have called them within a 30 day period to advise them we wanted to go monthly? What kind of a scam is this? I gave no verbal or written authorization to renew any contract.
> 
> After fighting with them for 2 hours on the phone I have filed a complaint with the CCTS. They want over $700 as well to cancel it. What a pack of thieves.


Is there a consumer protection agency in Ontario? The one in Quebec has lawyers on staff who can tell whether a business practice is legal and even initiate legal action (including class action lawsuits).

Also, there are TV shows that do a great job of exposing practices like the one that you describe and they often get results when no one else could. There's nothing like negative publicity on national television to get a company to sing a different tune.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Well, I get a call from Bell head office this morning. Full apology and switched to month to month effective immediately. Contract cancelled and all fees waived. Keep that in mind for any future issues. File a complaint with the CCTS


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Well, I get a call from Bell head office this morning. Full apology and switched to month to month effective immediately. Contract cancelled and all fees waived. Keep that in mind for any future issues. File a complaint with the CCTS


Well done !! Congrats.
I wish I would have thought/known of the CCTS.
However, in the end, we didn't have to pay all that much in our case.

Cheers

Dave


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

greco said:


> Well done !! Congrats.
> I wish I would have thought/known of the CCTS.
> However, in the end, we didn't have to pay all that much in our case.
> 
> ...


The guy from Bell that I talked to called the service I received from their front line people on the phone "Draconian"


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> The guy from Bell that I talked to called the service I received from their front line people on the phone "Draconian"


Interesting. I remember talking to someone at Bell that told me that one of their front line people "lied" to me....that was the actual word he used.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Good for you Scott, glad you were able to clear that up.

Good to know about the CCTS too.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

sulphur said:


> Good for you Scott, glad you were able to clear that up.
> 
> Good to know about the CCTS too.


It was way more than I was expecting. I was fully ready to get into an argument with this guy. He came straight out and said they were wrong


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

On a similar note, I called bells "loyalty" dept and told them I don't think I'm getting very good value from my phone and Internet plans....they immediately dropped the price by about 50% on both products, no argument at all. Apparently they have some promos in their pocket that they can give....but you have to call in and ask, otherwise theyll happily just keep taking your money.When they sent a tech out to service my line this month, he says as a customer he calls them every month or 2 to see what they have to offer.Might be worth the 10 mins to call.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Diablo said:


> On a similar note, I called bells "loyalty" dept and told them I don't think I'm getting very good value from my phone and Internet plans....they immediately dropped the price by about 50% on both products, no argument at all. Apparently they have some promos in their pocket that they can give....but you have to call in and ask, otherwise theyll happily just keep taking your money.When they sent a tech out to service my line this month, he says as a customer he calls them every month or 2 to see what they have to offer.Might be worth the 10 mins to call.


I used to work with a guy that would call bell every 6 months or so and threaten to cancel his service for whatever reason. They would give him a discounted rate for x amount of months. Then he would call them again... and so on. Did it for as long as I knew him


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## brimc76 (Feb 14, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I used to work with a guy that would call bell every 6 months or so and threaten to cancel his service for whatever reason. They would give him a discounted rate for x amount of months. Then he would call them again... and so on. Did it for as long as I knew him


This is good advice as long as you don't live in a rural area where Bell is the main provider for services. If they don't think you can easily switch providers they aren't too eager to give you discounts. As an ex-employee I always complained to upper management that they spent to much time and effort on what they called "winbacks" and not enough on keeping their existing customers happy. It's much the same at many of the larger service providers - whatever the service may be.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

brimc76 said:


> This is good advice as long as you don't live in a rural area where Bell is the main provider for services. If they don't think you can easily switch providers they aren't too eager to give you discounts. As an ex-employee I always complained to upper management that they spent to much time and effort on what they called "winbacks" and not enough on keeping their existing customers happy. It's much the same at many of the larger service providers - whatever the service may be.


Good point. You wouldn't need to "winback" customers if you didn't piss half of them off.

I think that it's been over five years now that I've been with a different provider and I still get the odd letter to come back.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

I had to bump this thread after I found this picture:

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.ne...76902_205344452828349_1499879_499247458_n.jpg


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