# Easier and faster than I thought



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Our son advised me to "start mashing the F5 button at midnight". I fully expected all systems to crash, and all lines to be busy all day, in response to demand, and figured on waiting a few more days before trying to register. But my wife is a stickler for these things, so she called up this morning. She DID have to listen to the same soft jazz tune for 30 minutes, but set her phone down beside her on her work desk and was able to do actual work to fill in the time. But with the 30-minute wait, we were both able to register for first dose on April 23rd, with 2nd dose on August 19.

I see people complaining about how that's stretching out the 2nd dose too far/long. But you know, it was only 2 weeks ago that, as far as we knew, I would not be eligible to attempt registering for a first dose until June 1, and my wife not before July 1. Then the vaccine supply increased, and deliveries arrived, and the dates changed. I could easily see that second dose being rescheduled for early-to mid June by the time we go for our first dose.

The landscape keeps changing for the better, so I'm not concerned about the tentative 4-month gap. It's 4-1/2 months away, which leaves plenty of time to shorten it considerably.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Congratulations!

I'm looking forward to a similar event. They're still on the 65 years old or older demographic and there's no provision on our Health Board's web site to add medical background issues. I'll just have to wait a little longer.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

forever the optimist.
the concern from people is simply, what if the availability doesnt exceed current forecasts? how will that impact effectiveness?
those of us who havent worked for the civil service arent as confident in the government outperforming, as its as rare as an easter bunny sighting. The concerns are legitimate.

But glad you got things under way and hope it goes well.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

mhammer said:


> Our son advised me to "start mashing the F5 button at midnight". I fully expected all systems to crash, and all lines to be busy all day, in response to demand, and figured on waiting a few more days before trying to register. But my wife is a stickler for these things, so she called up this morning. She DID have to listen to the same soft jazz tune for 30 minutes, but set her phone down beside her on her work desk and was able to do actual work to fill in the time. But with the 30-minute wait, we were both able to register for first dose on April 23rd, with 2nd dose on August 19.
> 
> I see people complaining about how that's stretching out the 2nd dose too far/long. But you know, it was only 2 weeks ago that, as far as we knew, I would not be eligible to attempt registering for a first dose until June 1, and my wife not before July 1. Then the vaccine supply increased, and deliveries arrived, and the dates changed. I could easily see that second dose being rescheduled for early-to mid June by the time we go for our first dose.
> 
> The landscape keeps changing for the better, so I'm not concerned about the tentative 4-month gap. It's 4-1/2 months away, which leaves plenty of time to shorten it considerably.


So, you're not concerned that the wait time between jabs is approx. 3 times longer than the recommendation of the manufacturer, and in this time, you will be in a sub optimal position, if exposed to the virus.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

My parents got vaccinated the week before last. As far as I know, they haven't had any adverse reactions so far.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Native status all ages is available and they have the doses but I'm not ready just yet. For me its Johnson and Johnson or nothing. I want the one shot vaccine, not a 2 shot where they keep changing the science on intervals between shots.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Great to hear mhammer. We also got our bookings. Although now we are trying to decide whether we take the Astra Zeneca or the Pfizer/Moderna.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

I went online around 10AM-had to wait in an online queue for 15 minutes and then booked the appointment-not too bad at all.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

I’m gonna get all of the vaccines right in my jugular


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

My wife was told it would be either Pfizer or Moderna. Am I concerned about the gap between doses? Not in the least, since I don't expect it to be adhered to, and probably shrunk considerably before we approach summer. The biggest fly in the ointment so far has been the suppliers and supply, that sparked a variety of panicky "What'll we do now?" reactions from federal and provincial levels. I think that's simmering down now.

There have been a number of things that few expected. One was certainly the initial hiccup in production, as "big pharma" stopped and retooled to meet demand. Another was that the mask-'n-wash strategy, coupled with so many working from home, managed to stave off the double-whammy of a seasonal flu epidemic that hospital administrators and public health folks were terrified of happening concurrent with a second wave. I'm reminded here of the old Sam the Sham song "Oh that's good, no that's bad".





Pleased to hear from others here that their experience was as efficient and painless as ours. I'm not the greatest fan of the current provincial government, but so far this initiative has come off without a hitch, so kudos to the provincial and municipal coordinators, and relevant ministry folk. If we can get the populace to be as thoughtful, it'll be a big win.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

*


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

Good to hear. 

I was getting a bit frustrated with the Region my dad is in. Near where I live, they had already started doing the 60 somethings. He is mid 70's, and was "well within the window" but he could not get an appointment. He tried daily, my wife tried (for him) and so did I. "No spaces available, please try back in a few weeks". WEEKS?!?!?!? Are you f**king kidding me?!?!?!??! We did not! We tried daily! Finally, he has one booked for Monday.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

In BC they decided to limit the Astra Zeneca to the 55-65 age group and it is being done through pharmacies. My wife has an appointment for tomorrow. I'm 66 so I'll be getting Moderna or Pfizer. I'm registered but won't get an appointment until they get to my age cohort. Should be sometime in the next week or so for an appointment and a week after that for the shot. Then it's a three week wait and we may have the grandkids for a sleepover. That will depend on how the case count is at the time. One step daughter is immune compromised and the other runs a daycare so has lots of potential exposures.


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

Got mine last week


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

On the news today they were reporting that the wealthier parts of Toronto has a much MUCH higher percentage of people vaccinated. Seems there is a benefit to being able to work from your desk at home where you can work while on hold over actually having to go out and stock shelves and produce items on the line, etc.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

As an essential worker who's been treated as virus fodder for the past year plus, I can't begin to tell you how happy this vaccination rollout makes me.


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## Fred Gifford (Sep 2, 2019)

got the Moderna shot yesterday, 2nd dose is scheduled for July 27th ..


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> On the news today they were reporting that the wealthier parts of Toronto has a much MUCH higher percentage of people vaccinated. Seems there is a benefit to being able to work from your desk at home where you can work while on hold over actually having to go out and stock shelves and produce items on the line, etc.


Yep, that's an ugly and wholly unnecessary reality.
Like I keep saying, if the immunization program is to stop spread, then the people you want to vaccinate first are those whose daily life and job obliges them to be around lots of people. Masks are great, but remember that the primary function of the non-N95 mask is about *exhaling* not inhaling. So we may be protected from mask-wearing grocery-store staff, but they're not necessarily protected from *us*.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Fred Gifford said:


> got the Moderna shot yesterday, 2nd dose is scheduled for July 27th ..


Personally, I'd consider that as a tentative date. That's 3-1/2 months away. Think back 3-1/2 months ago. NOTHING of what we're currently experiencing was anticipated. Not the third wave. NOt the increased vaccine supply. So I expect vaccine-timing to change.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

mhammer said:


> Think back 3-1/2 months ago.


Yes, things DO change. The U.S. is now advising it's citizens to NOT travel to Canada due to Covid risk.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

mhammer said:


> Yep, that's an ugly and wholly unnecessary reality.
> Like I keep saying, if the immunization program is to stop spread, then the people you want to vaccinate first are those whose daily life and job obliges them to be around lots of people. Masks are great, but remember that the primary function of the non-N95 mask is about *exhaling* not inhaling. So we may be protected from mask-wearing grocery-store staff, but they're not necessarily protected from *us*.


They were also promised to be vaccinated early, but have been bumped by the government pandering to special interest groups.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Okay Player said:


> They were also promised to be vaccinated early, but have been bumped by the government pandering to special interest groups.


Too many people - not enough vaccines. It's only natural as a matter of survival for people to push for the front of the line.

We do seem to be doing better than expected with vaccine deliveries right now - but there's a lot of things that can go wrong along the way - other countries pulling rank, production problems, etc.

It's all new - and it's all very much in demand.

I just booked my first shot this morning for 8 days from now. I'll tell you, I'm hoping I don't get sick in the next few weeks and I'm hoping that there's nothing that gets in the way of that little vial with my name on it. I'll rest a whole lot easier 2 weeks after I've been poked


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

allthumbs56 said:


> Too many people - not enough vaccines. It's only natural as a matter of survival for people to push for the front of the line.


Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's a very callous thing to say to someone who's been put in harm's way for the duration of the pandemic and will continue to be because I'm not a member of a swing voting block. The government is supposed to be the referee, making sure selfish actors aren't rewarded. Instead, of stamping out the behaviour, they're encouraging it.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Okay Player said:


> Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's a very callous thing to say to someone who's been put in harm's way for the duration of the pandemic and will continue to be because I'm not a member of a swing voting block. The government is supposed to be the referee, making sure selfish actors aren't rewarded. Instead, of stamping out the behaviour, they're encouraging it.


I see an unbelievable number of requests in the media, from groups wanting to be first in line. So much of it is whiny and unsympathetic, it's sickening.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

keto said:


> I see an unbelievable number of requests in the media, from groups wanting to be first in line. So much of it is whiny and unsympathetic, it's sickening.


"Agree" would be more appropriate than "Like" but it is, what it is.


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## Paul M (Mar 27, 2015)

Milkman said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> I'm looking forward to a similar event. They're still on the 65 years old or older demographic and there's no provision on our Health Board's web site to add medical background issues. I'll just have to wait a little longer.



My wife got AZ yesterday, I'm on the waitlist for AZ myself. I have a confirmation number, but not an actual date. I'm hoping by my birthday in mid-may.

No idea how I created a blank table in this post.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The setting of vaccination priorities has been one of the toughest calls for all governments, and understandably subject to the most criticism since NO group wants to get sick.

Governments have been attempting to identify "most deserving". The high fatality rate at long-term care facilities made the choice easy for them at first. And of course, staff working in ICU or with LTC residents, were easily flagged as necessary/"deserving" recipients. But after that, setting priority groups got a LOT harder. Were there unlimited supply of vaccine, and unlimited resources for distribution, it would have been a no-brainer.

As I've noted before, people tend to look at the immunization program through one of two lenses. One group tends to look at it in terms of personal protection. "I need MY shot because I'm in danger". This is part of what prompted the age-titration of vaccination (i./e., start with the oldest and work your way down to younger). But it also prompts the demand from those who might see vaccination as their economic-survival ticket, allowing them to return to earning a living. 

The other perspective is the contagion-prevention lens, that focuses on contexts where contagion is more likely, and the people that work in them. The perspective there is what groups and contexts will reduce spread if I vaccinate there early on? After all, the less the spread, the more relaxed the rest of the populace can be about getting vaccinated yesterday. 

For me, the poster child for this was/is first responders. Yes, they're younger, they're healthy, and they know what to look out for and how to protect themselves. But they also deal with different people all the time, in risky situations (you can't tell someone to extricate themselves from the car crash on their own, just so you don't touch them or come near their face) that they can't fully control or predict, and can't always manage the contact between the people in those situations, especially with snap judgments and fast action are required. For me, that group is at risk of both contracting and spreading, being unable to manage it in others. They're also a group we can't afford to be short-staffed on. Teachers kind of see themselves in that light, but public health officials rightly note that teachers will see the same kids, day in day out, in a manageable predictable context, not a different group every day.

The world of work is so complex and varied that I won't attempt to start ranking other groups. But the choices start to get problematic when we include groups like Rob/OkayPlayer, folks who stack shelves, folks who deliver food, drive Ubers and taxis, and buses. I_ would_ say "Governments should have thought of this beforehand", but the reality is that all they had was contracts and assurances from vaccine providers, and production delays buggered all plans anyone had.

Now, in the grand scheme of things if these folks get vaccinated 3 weeks before those folks move up in line, it doesn't really change very much. The people already vaccinated are still at risk until they develop immunity in response, so plenty of folks are not at any particular advantage to others. What matters is not so much who is in line ahead of who else, but rather the case counts. I don't expect that to placate very many.

In any event. I hope everybody who wants one gets their first poke by the end of May, and that people behave themselves and employers give them the wherewithall to do so.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Okay Player said:


> Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's a very callous thing to say to someone who's been put in harm's way for the duration of the pandemic and will continue to be because I'm not a member of a swing voting block. The government is supposed to be the referee, making sure selfish actors aren't rewarded. Instead, of stamping out the behaviour, they're encouraging it.


Sorry but just read a newspaper and you'll see it's true. Regardless, Why callous? It wasn't directed at you and, for what it's worth I'm classified as essential too and haven't gotten to stay at home one day. I see quite a few people and rely on a mask and a piece of plexiglass to keep me safe.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

mhammer said:


> For me, the poster child for this was/is first responders.



Here here. I agree.

I think the scheduling started out with good intent, and they got lost along the way, or wrenches were thrown into the gears.

Older folks in senior homes was a good place to start. The most vulnerable. 

Of course equal priority to those working with them and those in high risk of coming into contact with cases. That would be medical front line workers, including first responders, the police, and teachers (given the reluctance to close, and keep closed, schools). 

Right after that are people who are essential workers. Truck drivers, food processing employees, retail food/drug, public transport. Those that have to work in contact with the most people.

I'm not sure after that. Perhaps students if they are keeping the schools open. They are probably next in line based on the amount of contact with others on a regular basis. 

I think the litmus test for priority would be the amount of possible contact with others is not a bad idea.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

allthumbs56 said:


> Sorry but just read a newspaper and you'll see it's true. Regardless, Why callous? It wasn't directed at you and, for what it's worth I'm classified as essential too and haven't gotten to stay at home one day. I see quite a few people and rely on a mask and a piece of plexiglass to keep me safe.


How else would you describe someone watching poor behaviour and just shrugging their shoulders in response?


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Here here. I agree.
> 
> I think the scheduling started out with good intent, and they got lost along the way, or wrenches were thrown into the gears.
> 
> ...


Your essential worker category by aggregate deals with infinitely more people than teachers do. That's a big part of the problem.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Okay Player said:


> How else would you describe someone watching poor behaviour and just shrugging their shoulders in response?


What would you have me do? Use my super powers? I'm just a poor slug like most.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Okay Player said:


> Your essential worker category by aggregate deals with infinitely more people than teachers do. That's a big part of the problem.


Like I alluded to, the more people you come into contact with, the higher on the list. The teachers would drop on the list if they could stay at home and teach online. They come into less contact with the walking petri dishes that way.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Like I alluded to, the more people you come into contact with, the higher on the list. The teachers would drop on the list if they could stay at home and teach online. They come into less contact with the walking petri dishes that way.


Teachers see a set number of people, and its the same people day in and day out. That's not the case for everyone who's now behind them on the vaccination list.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

allthumbs56 said:


> What would you have me do? Use my super powers? I'm just a poor slug like most.


Voicing a sense of justice on an internet forum is hardly a superpower.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Yes, things DO change. The U.S. is now advising it's citizens to NOT travel to Canada due to Covid risk.


Things must be good there. Full capacity crowds for MLB in Texas, no masks or social distancing.
I'm part of a group that could have got this vaccine a while ago. I'd be glad to sell my spot to some afraid rich person wanting to jump the queue.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Milkman said:


> Congratulations!
> 
> I'm looking forward to a similar event. They're still on the 65 years old or older demographic and there's no provision on our Health Board's web site to add medical background issues. I'll just have to wait a little longer.











COVID-19 vaccines for Ontario


Learn about Ontario’s vaccination program to help protect us against COVID‑19. The Ontario government is expanding eligibility for COVID-19 first booster doses to children aged five to 11 to provide an extra layer of protection ahead of the new school year. In addition, on the recommendation of...




covid-19.ontario.ca





You should check again. They may have dropped it to 60 yesterday.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Guitar101 said:


> COVID-19 vaccines for Ontario
> 
> 
> Learn about Ontario’s vaccination program to help protect us against COVID‑19. The Ontario government is expanding eligibility for COVID-19 first booster doses to children aged five to 11 to provide an extra layer of protection ahead of the new school year. In addition, on the recommendation of...
> ...


Nope, I'm on the refresh button every few minutes. Still taking appointments for 65 and older.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Here here. I agree.
> 
> I think the scheduling started out with good intent, and they got lost along the way, or wrenches were thrown into the gears.
> 
> ...


A less-than--optimally-successful campaign of fear was waged,partly by levels of government but also by newsmedia and social media, to get people to adopt the individual preventative behaviours over which they had control (mask, wash, spacing, staying in). All too often, people remain unpersuaded UNLESS you can appeal to their fears. But I suspect one of the unintended side-effects of that was that it shifted the focus for many from a calmer "How do we collectively and strategically manage contagion and keep it low?" to "I'm afraid *I'm* gonna get it and die, so VACCINATE ME!".

As an undergraduate, I became interested in many aspects of animal behaviour. One of the catalytic papers I read was by senior ethologist Thelma Rowell, who noted that so-called "pecking orders" or dominance hierarchies within social species only tend to occur when there is some highly-desired resource in limited supply, be it food, females in estrous, favorable sleeping places, etc. When there is more than enough to go around for everyone, competition and pecking order tends not to develop, even within species well-known for having them, since nobody has to fight for anything. I look at the very public debate over who should get vaccinated before or after who else through that lens.

Incidentally, the earlier effort to vaccinate remote Inuit and First Nation communities ahead of many others made perfect sense to me, from both a contagion-control and fiscal perspective. We know there are housing shortages in such places and crowding as a result, which drastically ups the risk. We also know that, for fly-in communities, it is easier and cheaper to fly in a public health nurse with vaccination supplies than it is to hastily fly *out* people on stretchers to an ICU hundreds of miles from where they live.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Guitar101 said:


> COVID-19 vaccines for Ontario
> 
> 
> Learn about Ontario’s vaccination program to help protect us against COVID‑19. The Ontario government is expanding eligibility for COVID-19 first booster doses to children aged five to 11 to provide an extra layer of protection ahead of the new school year. In addition, on the recommendation of...
> ...


Yeah, they never seemed to offer 65+ but went straight to 60+ yesterday morning. Pre-existing conditions have never come up as a qualifier AFAIK either. I'm 65, an essential worker who can't work from home, had cancer and have diabetes and kidney failure. None of that seems to matter - in the end it was just being 60+ that got me in the queue.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

allthumbs56 said:


> Yeah, they never seemed to offer 65+ but went straight to 60+ yesterday morning. Pre-existing conditions have never come up as a qualifier AFAIK either. I'm 65, an essential worker who can't work from home, had cancer and have diabetes and kidney failure. None of that seems to matter - in the end it was just being 60+ that got me in the queue.


That's what I thought. Not sure why Milkman's is saying 65. Got the Moderna vaccine on Wed and had no symptoms whatsoever. My wife got the Astrazeneca vaccine and only had a sore arm at the injection site. Now we just wait until July/August.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

I have heard and read a lot of people holding out for J&J due to it being a single shot. 









Johnson & Johnson vaccine under review in Europe after blood clot reports - National | Globalnews.ca


It was the first news of EMA's probe of the J&J vaccine, while AstraZeneca's coronavirus vaccine has been dogged for weeks over possible links to rare blood clots.




globalnews.ca


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

keto said:


> holding out for J&J due to it being a single shot.


I am hoping for this choice, the only reason being my phobia of needles. I would make a terrible junkie. I can't even watch someone else get a shot.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau-closely-monitoring-johnson-johnson-1.5985580



6 cases out of 6.8 million doses. One in a million seems like pretty good odds to me.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I am hoping for this choice, the only reason being my phobia of needles. I would make a terrible junkie. I can't even watch someone else get a shot.


Assuming one isn't looking closely, the simple cure is to pinch yourself somewhere nearby. Seriously. Self-inflicted pain tends to "gate out" exogenously-inflicted pain, or at least dull it considerably.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Guitar101 said:


> That's what I thought. Not sure why Milkman's is saying 65. Got the Moderna vaccine on Wed and had no symptoms whatsoever. My wife got the Astrazeneca vaccine and only had a sore arm at the injection site. Now we just wait until July/August.


This is why (taken just this minute). When I posted previously it was based on the same website.










I did go ahead and book appointments for my wife and I at a Pharmacy for this Sunday.

Complete bullshit that we have to search and seemingly compete for spots for a vaccination.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I just got an email from my new employer saying I may be able to get the vaccine via work instead of waiting for Hamilton to drop the age limit lower. It's been at 60 and older for at least 2 months now.... And now there are 2 hot zones in Hamilton at least, so add another couple of months to that


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Fucking Brantford. Where hope and technology come to die.

If we were at 60 and older for two months I would have had mine two months ago.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

knight_yyz said:


> I just got an email from my new employer saying I may be able to get the vaccine via work instead of waiting for Hamilton to drop the age limit lower. It's been at 60 and older for at least 2 months now.... And now there are 2 hot zones in Hamilton at least, so add another couple of months to that


I know some people who called to book here in Niagara and got appointments in Hamilton.

Go figure


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Complete bullshit that we have to search and seemingly compete for spots for a vaccination.


I'm booked this Thursday I believe for Pfizer at our main clinic. Maggs' doctor has booked her at the Dr's office for Astrazeneca.

It's a confusing mish-mash. Heck - we even made it to CNN 



https://video.twimg.com/amplify_video/1381731192274313221/vid/1280x720/VF2kmdN5rEUxScls.mp4?tag=14


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

And updated again. 62 and older now.

Moving a little more quickly?


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

It's a mess. There are now hot spot neighborhoods where anyone can book appointments. This does make sense to me, given the drastic situation now. 10% positivity and R of 1.4 in Ottawa as of yesterday.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

allthumbs56 said:


> I know some people who called to book here in Niagara and got appointments in Hamilton.
> 
> Go figure



How? I can't book an appointment in Hamilton at all. Proof of address, etc etc...


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Ok, well that page shows I can't sign up, but if I click on the link anyway I can sign up for the 55-59 age group even though it says on the main page I cannot. who makes this shit up? So now I am on a waiting list which does not guarantee that I will get a spot or get vaccinated.... smh


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Milkman said:


> And updated again. 62 and older now.
> 
> Moving a little more quickly?
> 
> View attachment 360503


They’ve been reading the GC forum.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

If we were back in the day of regional newspapers with local coverage, and a surfeit of local AM radio stations, and NO internet, we'd be hearing about the vaccination schedule for our own region ONLY, and be a lot clearer in our own minds about what was going on locally. It would probably also be a lot better co-ordinated because there wouldn't be any of this "But Stacey's dad is letting her go on the ski trip. Why can't I go? You're so mean. I hate you!!!". We hear about what's happening over_ there_ and it seems so much better than what's happening _here_.

In other words, a big part of the confusion has been the diversity of schedules, criteria, availability, etc., that we keep hearing about via social media and newsmedia. Is it 60 or 65 where I live? Am I eligible in June or now? Is it this vaccine or that one?

At the same time, any attempt to have one monolithic immunization program for the whole country, or whole province, or even whole region, is likely to run into difficulty because one size does *not* fit all.

I imagine anyone west of Thunder Bay or east of Ottawa hadn't heard, but Kingston was doing fabulously for quite a while, with nary a case, and much opened up.....until recently. They now have an outbreak among Queen's University students.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Why do you suppose they felt it was necessary to spell this out?

*Appointment booking for COVID-19 vaccine clinics is currently open to adults 62 years-of-age and older (i.e., born in 1959 or earlier).* 

Maybe I need to chill out a bit but are they saying people are too dumb to know what year they were born?

If you were born any time after April in 1959, you're not 62 yet.

I was born in December of 1960 and guess what? I'm not 61 yet...

It would be more clear if they left that ie section out completely in my opinion.


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## terminalvertigo (Jun 12, 2010)

confusion through clarification


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Why do you suppose they felt it was necessary to spell this out?
> 
> *Appointment booking for COVID-19 vaccine clinics is currently open to adults 62 years-of-age and older (i.e., born in 1959 or earlier).*
> 
> ...


No one anywhere is making a fuss about specifically *when* in the given year a person was born. If a person was born sometime in 1959 they are considered "close enough" to 62. As near as I can tell the mention of both age and year of birth is simply a way of restating the same general cutoff in two different ways.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

mhammer said:


> No one anywhere is making a fuss about specifically *when* in the given year a person was born. If a person was born sometime in 1959 they are considered "close enough" to 62. As near as I can tell the mention of both age and year of birth is simply a way of restating the same general cutoff in two different ways.


Thanks Mark,

I'll see if I'm able to make an appointment when they move to 1960 and / or age 61.

I still think it's a confusing way to word things.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Why do you suppose they felt it was necessary to spell this out?
> 
> *Appointment booking for COVID-19 vaccine clinics is currently open to adults 62 years-of-age and older (i.e., born in 1959 or earlier).*
> 
> ...


I believe they were trying to clarify some earlier confusion. Essentially you were "valid" if you were a particular age or were hitting that age in the current year. Does it help? It might have but there are so many ifs, ands, and buts everybody is probably confused. Age, hot spots, profession, doctor's recommendations, pharmacy vs clinic .......

All I know is that I'm booked for tomorrow but today I have been reading about a lot of cancellations due to shortages.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> I believe they were trying to clarify some earlier confusion. Essentially you were "valid" if you were a particular age or were hitting that age in the current year. Does it help? It might have but there are so many ifs, ands, and buts everybody is probably confused. Age, hot spots, profession, doctor's recommendations, pharmacy vs clinic .......
> 
> All I know is that I'm booked for tomorrow but today I have been reading about a lot of cancellations due to shortages.



Well, it would be much clearer if they said one or the other.

If you were born in the year 1959 or earlier.....Everybody knows the year in which they were born.

or

If you are 62 years old or older....again, people know this stuff.

Meh, I'm just getting impatient and a bit bitchy about it.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

My guess is that it _started out_ as an age, rather than birth-year, thing. But when people started showing up saying "I'll be turning XX in 3 weeks", or similar, especially given how many married couples are fairly similar in age, where one of the pair showing up is only a wee bit younger than the other, administrators probably said "Screw it. If they're born in the same year, let 'em in."


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm pleased to note that I am now booked for both doses of Pfizer (April 19, August 4).


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

My wife is 56. I’m 66. Here in BC we are mostly going by age except for areas with active outbreaks. The Aztra Zeneca is limited to 55 to 65. Because of vaccine hesitancy amongst the 55 to 65 group there are lots of spots available so my wife got her’s last week. I get a Pfizer jab tomorrow.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I got my first jab today.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

knight_yyz said:


> I got my first jab today.


Very good!

I got my first on Thursday (3 days ago) and I woke up a little stiff this morning but otherwise no issues but a bit of soreness in the shoulder for the first day.

Remarkably I am a much better guitarist all of a sudden


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

I may not become a better guitarist , but I'll still be able to enjoy the music .


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

It's comforting to see so much of our community here get vaccinated, either recently or in the near future. The Hammers get their turn this coming Friday.

As for sore shoulders, that's a pretty common reaction to any vaccination, and not indicative of anything unique to the vaccine you folks received.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

My wife received AZ yesterday.

I go for my Pfizer this afternoon.

For me this is a big deal. Considering how much we have sacrificed and for how long, this little prick in the arm is a major turning point / milestone in our path back to.....normal?

I realize that they need to be careful and all that, but I think we need vaccinating beserkers going nuts in crowds with needles.

Get some Edward Needlehands fucker going crazy in a crowd of protestors.....

Nevermind all this dancing around and lining up


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Ok, maybe a needle handed whacko is a tiny bit "out there".

I'll reign that in a bit.

Today, 4-20 now feels like a turning point, an important milestone for me in this whole mess. Other than a slightly sore shoulder, I feel zero impact from the Pfizer shot I received yesterday.

For me it's light at the end of a long tunnel. Is it possible I can have a little BBQ on Canada Day and actually hug my grand daughter and my Dad?
I'm not a real huggy sort of person, but after a year....


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

My Husband and myself got our shots April 4 th because we live in a designated hot spot according to our postal code. We got the Pfizer one. Next shot is same place, same time August 1st.

patience and adaptability will get you through this mess.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Lola said:


> My Husband and myself got our shots April 4 th because we live in a designated hot spot according to our postal code. We got the Pfizer one. Next shot is same place, same time August 1st.


My wife took the AZ on Sunday and I took Pfizer yesterday. In this city they're still only down to 60 years old and older for Pfizer.

At the rate they're going (about 600 / day) it could be two weeks before they get down to my wife's age (I did rob the cradle a bit there) and she wanted to be vaccinated sooner rather than later so she went the pharmacy route. Smart woman.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

Wife & I got ours yesterday. Her family has a long history of blood clots, so I'm really, really glad it was Pfizer, but I would have rolled my sleeve up for just about any of them. Well, except for the few cases of incompetence where some people received just saline. How is that mistake made?? 

Next appointment already booked for Aug 9th.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Posting about getting the vaccine is really going to upset the anti-vaxxers on the forum. They have feeling too. 😷


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Man o man the AZ vaccine knocked the crap out of me. My arm was throbbing all day Monday. I had zero appetite after the jab so I basically fasted that day which triggered an all night/all day Monday migraine... Couldn't sleep because of the throbbing and the migraine. Called in sick Monday, I even had the chills off and on a few times. Silver lining is my work decided that even though I am on probation they are paying me for the full day.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

knight_yyz said:


> Man o man the AZ vaccine knocked the crap out of me. My arm was throbbing all day Monday. I had zero appetite after the jab so I basically fasted that day which triggered an all night/all day Monday migraine... Couldn't sleep because of the throbbing and the migraine. Called in sick Monday, I even had the chills off and on a few times. Silver lining is my work decided that even though I am on probation they are paying me for the full day.


Sounds like you have some of the possible side effects. You should probably call Telehealth (https://www.ontario.ca/page/get-medical-advice-telehealth-ontario) (or your doctor). Glad your getting paid for the day though.


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## terminalvertigo (Jun 12, 2010)

Booked for R1 tomorrow afternoon. (Military)


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

When I got my shot the nurse told me that my arm would be sore. The next day I woke up and it hurt. Couldn’t do full range of motion but I was good the next day.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

allthumbs56 said:


> Very good!
> 
> I got my first on Thursday (3 days ago) and I woke up a little stiff this morning but otherwise no issues but a bit of soreness in the shoulder for the first day.
> 
> *Remarkably I am a much better guitarist all of a sudden*


Makes me want to tell the nurse, when it's my turn, "I'll have what *he's* having".


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

mhammer said:


> Makes me want to tell the nurse, when it's my turn, "I'll have what *he's* having".


 That’s awesome. And......a sense of humour prevails. Thx’


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I'm fine today. The symptoms were pretty much gone by the time I hit the sack last night.


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## johnnyshaka (Nov 2, 2014)

Booked for AZ tomorrow morning!

My wife was eligible to get Pfizer and did so this past weekend.

We're getting there...slowly but surely!


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

I got the Pfizer 2 weeks ago. My wife called a few pharmacies yesterday after we heard they were opening it up for 40 and up and one said "how about 1:30 this afternoon?". She got the AZ. She's feeling a little ill today and didn't sleep much last night. Good feeling having us both vaccinated now though.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Got mine and my wife too today. Next shot is in August. Got the Moderna. Well organized and the people are just so accommodating. My wife and I kept thanking everyone. Just grateful that we got it and soon I'll be able to hug my kids and my grandchildren.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Chito said:


> Got mine and my wife too today. Next shot is in August. Got the Moderna. Well organized and the people are just so accommodating. My wife and I kept thanking everyone. Just grateful that we got it and soon I'll be able to hug my kids and my grandchildren.


Just don't rush things. It's not like some linament where "you know it's working because it tingles". BTW, did you go to a pharmacy or one of the vaccination centres? Our turn is at the Nepean Sportsplex this Friday.

I wonder if people can be tested in some manner to determine if they have had sufficient immune response to be able to engage in "normal" interactions. Being vaccinated is one thing. Having a sufficiently robust immune response to not contract or pass on, even though risk of getting even moderately ill is dramatically reduced, is another.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

We both got ours yesterday, Pfizer, at the local centre. Little bit of arm pain last night but fine today. Fast and efficient at the centre, they could easily handle twice the volume.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

mhammer said:


> if they have had sufficient immune response to be able to engage in "normal" interactions



Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that the vaccines help with YOUR immune system. It doesn't preclude it from being in your body (even for a short period until your immune system can properly fight it off) and having the ability to spread it. So "normal" may be subject to interpretation.

In other words, the vaccine is not like an impenetrable sheild for you.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

24hrs later. My arm is sore, but not crippling. No chills or sweats. I don’t think the Misses was phased by any of it.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that the vaccines help with YOUR immune system. It doesn't preclude it from being in your body (even for a short period until your immune system can properly fight it off) and having the ability to spread it. So "normal" may be subject to interpretation.
> 
> In other words, the vaccine is not like an impenetrable shield for you.


Nothing to correct. You've pretty much nailed it.
I've been concerned for a while that folks who don't understand how vaccines work might consider themselves instantly bulletproof and engage in risky behaviours while there is still considerable contagion out there. I'll be masking up and distancing well after a 2nd vaccination, until such time as the case count drops significantly. I have no desire to be an asymptomatic carrier.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

From what I have read each vaccine has a success rate. Anywhere from 80-95% depending on the brand. So you may still get the virus and show symptoms but, you will not end up in the hospital for two weeks on a ventilator. IIRC to date there are no deaths caused by covid for vaccinated people.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

knight_yyz said:


> Man o man the AZ vaccine knocked the crap out of me. My arm was throbbing all day Monday. I had zero appetite after the jab so I basically fasted that day which triggered an all night/all day Monday migraine... Couldn't sleep because of the throbbing and the migraine. Called in sick Monday, I even had the chills off and on a few times. Silver lining is my work decided that even though I am on probation they are paying me for the full day.


Pretty much the same here. Took about 8 hrs. before I felt anything then about 24hrs like you described, zero sleep, headache, fever, chills, a bit nauseous.
The arm took longer. Not real bad, just a bit uncomfortable to sleep on that side for about a weak. Flu shot gives me a sore arm for a couple days too.

Hopefully round 2 will be better. In any case I am 100% positive that the AZ vaccine triggered an immune response.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

knight_yyz said:


> IIRC to date there are no deaths caused by covid for vaccinated people.


I think you are correct.

There have been some cases of people dying from blood clots from certain vaccines, but on the other hand, there's likely a higher percentage risk of getting blood clots from contracting Covid.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Just don't rush things. It's not like some linament where "you know it's working because it tingles". BTW, did you go to a pharmacy or one of the vaccination centres? Our turn is at the Nepean Sportsplex this Friday.


I think we're fine. I'm not thinking of venturing out until maybe a couple of weeks after the 2nd shot.
We went to the Eva James Community Center in Kanata. When we got there we were told to park our car and they will be announcing which time slot is next to go in. They were about 20 minutes behind when we got called. Everything was smooth after that. The one who gave us the shots is actually a doctor, volunteering for it. 
And my arm is sore right now. Hopefully it goes away tomorrow.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I think you are correct.
> 
> There have been some cases of people dying from blood clots from certain vaccines, but on the other hand, there's likely a higher percentage risk of getting blood clots from contracting Covid.


My wife did some research on this and reality the number of cases of blood clotting is very small compared to the number or people who has had the shot. In fact the risk is higher with women who uses birth control pills.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Chito said:


> My wife did some research on this and reality the number of cases of blood clotting is very small compared to the number or people who has had the shot. In fact the risk is higher with women who uses birth control pills.


Which is why it took a while to determine if the incidence of blood clots was actually connected to the vaccine.in some way or simply something going on in parallel and vaccination just happened to occur within a conspicuous time window.

The incidence of clots is roughly one in 250,000 vaccinations, based on the number of cases reported so far. The mortality rate from Covid-19 in Ontario and Quebec is about 2.4%, or about one in 42. Most of those cases where clotting occurred did not die, and doctors have since learned that clotting in such instances should NOT be treated with the traditional regimen of heparin, further decreasing the likelihood of fatalities.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

I've been trying for 3 weeks to book an appointment online... nothing available within a 2 hour drive of Ottawa.
What am I doing wrong? Should I be calling instead? If so, what's the point of having an online booking system?


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Which is why it took a while to determine if the incidence of blood clots was actually connected to the vaccine.in some way or simply something going on in parallel and vaccination just happened to occur within a conspicuous time window.
> 
> The incidence of clots is roughly one in 250,000 vaccinations, based on the number of cases reported so far. The mortality rate from Covid-19 in Ontario and Quebec is about 2.4%, or about one in 42. Most of those cases where clotting occurred did not die, and doctors have since learned that clotting in such instances should NOT be treated with the traditional regimen of heparin, further decreasing the likelihood of fatalities.


Gonna get a lot of kickback on that 2.4% number, I myself would like to see a source.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

tomee2 said:


> What am I doing wrong?


try booking later at night (after 6PM )
the time slots availabe rotate around the time you log on
so you''l get evening bookings showing ( which fewer people want )


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

oldjoat said:


> try booking later at night (after 6PM )
> the time slots availabe rotate around the time you log on
> so you''l get evening bookings showing ( which fewer people want )


Ok thanks!
So far I have to go to walmart website to book at their pharmacies, Shoppers to book at theirs, etc. And all are full anytime I look. Is there not one central place to book these at any available location? 
Seems very patchworkey


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> Ok thanks!
> So far I have to go to walmart website to book at their pharmacies, Shoppers to book at theirs, etc. And all are full anytime I look. Is there not one central place to book these at any available location?
> Seems very patchworkey


With the pharmacies, you have to book at each of them. No central booking. This is for the astra Zeneca vaccine only. For the Pfizer/Moderna shots, you have to book online .
Check this link, it was just updated on the 19th.
How to book a COVID-19 vaccine appointment


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Google "'your city' covid vaccine" and it should get you to provincial website. Then book from there


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Although these sort of testimonials mean very little in terms of statistical analysis, My wife had AZ on Sunday and I had Pfizer on Monday. We both had mild soreness. Even if they injected WATER or saline you would have a sore shoulder. They're forcing liquid into muscle, not a vein.
Of course it will be a bit sore later.

Anyway, beyond that, we have no noticeable side effects other than a little peace of mind.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

keto said:


> Gonna get a lot of kickback on that 2.4% number, I myself would like to see a source.


Just google covid mortality rate Canada. 1.14M case, 23,713 deaths = just over 2%. Many probably had underlying conditions.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

davetcan said:


> Just google covid mortality rate Canada. 1.14M case, 23,713 deaths = just over 2%. Many probably had underlying conditions.


Underlying conditions....I'll wager many if not most of us have one or two.

Borderline or actual type 2 diabetes for example?

Heart condition?

Cancer?

Just using those three, how many of us here on this site would fall into the higher risk categories?


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Underlying conditions....I'll wager many if not most of us have one or two.
> 
> Borderline or actual type 2 diabetes for example?
> 
> ...


Very true. I have a cousin who has kidney issues and have been having dialysis for years. She caught the virus last week. She's in the hospital alone. 
So this is just an example if she doesn't survive it, some people will say, it was not covid, but her underlying issues that caused it.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

tomee2 said:


> Ok thanks!
> So far I have to go to walmart website to book at their pharmacies, Shoppers to book at theirs, etc. And all are full anytime I look. Is there not one central place to book these at any available location?
> Seems very patchworkey


Best to call Walmart. I found that their website shows no appts available when in fact, they have no vaccine.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Guitar101 said:


> Try this: How to book a COVID-19 vaccine appointment
> 
> Best to call Walmart. I found that their website shows no appts available when in fact, they have no vaccine.


I'm told the target in this city of just under 100,000 is 600 vaccinations a day from the health unit. I'm unaware of the capacity at the pharmacies.

At least some of the pharmacies are indeed taking appointments based on projected receipts of promised shipments, meaning if the shipments are delayed for any reason, your appointment could be moved.

To my knowledge, the health unit is only taking appointments with vaccines in the fridge. I could be wrong about that, but I was told directly by the pharmacy after booking the appointment that I should call to make sure they had received more..


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Milkman said:


> I'm told the target in this city of just under 100,000 is 600 vaccinations a day from the health unit. I'm unaware of the capacity at the pharmacies.
> 
> At least some of the pharmacies are indeed taking appointments based on projected receipts of promised shipments, meaning if the shipments are delayed for any reason, your appointment could be moved.
> 
> To my knowledge, the health unit is only taking appointments with vaccines in the fridge. I could be wrong about that, but I was told directly by the pharmacy after booking the appointment that I should call to make sure they had received more..


My experience with Walmart is when you get to "Select a location" you get the following message making you think there's just no appt slots available.

_At this time there are no appointment slots available to be booked within your selected location. Please check back later or search for a different location.
Please visit our website for the latest information about Walmart's response to COVID-19 including updates about the vaccine._

After trying numerous times trying to book an appt, I called the store and was told they didn't have any vaccine. That's why I suggest calling Walmart if your trying to make an appt there. I did eventually get an appt for my wife at another pharmacy so were both vaccinated.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

If my wife had decided to wait for Pfizer she would still be waiting and for who knows how long. She was vaccinated with AZ on the 18th. The Health Unit has been on 1961 (birth year) for almost two weeks. Based on her age we figure it would be mid to late May before she would have been jabbed with Pfizer. That's why she chose AZ and I went with Pfizer.

We still need to get my daughter vaccinated and she's in her late twenties. Watching the news and websites for her earliest opportunity.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Underlying conditions....I'll wager many if not most of us have one or two.
> Borderline or actual type 2 diabetes for example?
> Heart condition?
> Cancer?
> Just using those three, how many of us here on this site would fall into the higher risk categories?


Correct. Health symptoms (as well as bad habits and poor health behaviours, if we're honest) increase with age. And after a certain point, immune function starts to decline.

My earlier 2.4% figure was for Ontario-plus-Quebec. Dave is correct that the national rate is a little under 2.1%. Fair to qualify that figure, however, by noting that there are likely people who contracted and fought off, on their own, without ever being tested and contributing to the "cases" figure. I don't expect it to change the %-mortality rate appreciably, though. Perhaps just as important, the "recovered" figure does not differentiate between "got over it pretty quickly and easily", "spent 4 weeks in hospital, but I'm okay now", and "discharged from hospital, but still suffering".

Health issues nearly always sum together, to complicate diagnosis, treatment, and recovery. That includes concurrent treatment (i.e., can't take THIS drug because one already has to that THAT one), as well as environment (i.e., what is everyone else at home or work, or in your neighbourhood, doing around you?). It is counter-productive to treat Covid-19 as somehow "separate" and ONLY affecting those with "underlying health conditions" (UHC), such that protective measures need only apply to "those" people. Somewhere out there are people with plenty of UHCs who haven't caught it, and people with few or no UHCs who did and got seriously ill or died. I just heard on the radio about a young hockey player, in the peak of physical condition, who caught it just a few weeks after being drafted.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

A very healthy friend in Chicago, 50ish, got it and died. No underlying conditions at all. That was a huge shock to me because he was so healthy. Search around and there are many descriptions of people getting very I'll or dying who were young and fit and healthy. And then there's the 90 year old lady that got it and recovered. So much seems to depend on individual disease history and immune response and who knows what else. 
Plan for the worst, pray for the best?


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

As I said a bit earlier, Maggs is trying to get the AZ. She's on two pharmacy lists - no action there so far. Two weeks ago her doctor said that she could get Maggs in a week ago this past Friday - no action there either so Maggs called the doctor's office yesterday and was told that they received a shipment of the vaccine but are "waiting for training" and should be set to administer starting next week.

I guess the lesson is that nothing happens fast. Announcing something and actually getting it done are two different things.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I still have this image of Edward Needlehands running amuck through crowds of shutdown protestors......

Somebody draw that up for us.

If I do it , it will look like a stick man with big hands.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Milkman said:


> I still have this image of Edward Needlehands running amuck through crowds of shutdown protestors......
> 
> Somebody draw that up for us.
> 
> If I do it , it will look like a stick man with big hands.


Just get an Edward Scissor Hands pic and change the scissors to needles.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Guitar101 said:


> Just get an Edward Scissor Hands pic and change the scissors to needles.


I see him more as Iron Maiden's Eddie meets Edward Scissorhands.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

That 2.4% mortality rate @mhammer mentioned is among covid cases, not the entire population, correct?
I think @keto meant among the population, as that is the clotting situation it is being compared to.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

jb welder said:


> That 2.4% mortality rate @mhammer mentioned is among covid cases, not the entire population, correct?
> I think @keto meant among the population, as that is the clotting situation it is being compared to.


The roughly 1-in-250,000 incidence of clotting is _known cases of those who have been vaccinated_. The question epidemiologists were initially asking is whether - if we completely ignore being vaccinated or not - the incidence of spontaneous clotting amongst the general populace, within a given time-frame, is substantially different than that observed among vaccine recipients. And the answer, as near as they could initially tell, was "not dramatically". However, as I hope I conveyed, once the various local reports started getting collated, doctors found that yes there were particular distinctive characteristics and risk factors associated with those rare instances of clotting, and that the usual tried-and-true method of breaking down clots (using heparin) was contraindicated in such instances. It was a bit like finding out that taking Ibuprofen to lower a fever actually makes things _worse_ for disease X.

The comparison of covid cases versus general populace or vaccinated populace is a relevant one, since the concern is that some might avoid getting vaccinated out of fear of clotting. Well, when one considers the risk of clotting if you get vaccinated, in comparison to the risk of dying if you move about the world unprotected and contract the virus, it becomes a pretty easy choice. At least I would hope so. Sometimes there's no accounting for someone's logic.


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## johnnyshaka (Nov 2, 2014)

Got my AZ shot this morning and so far, so good. Two coworkers got their shots yesterday and are dealing with side affects (headache, mainly) today but are still at work so they can't be THAT bad.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

mhammer said:


> when one considers the risk of clotting if you get vaccinated, in comparison to the risk of dying if you move about the world unprotected and contract the virus, it becomes a pretty easy choice. At least I would hope so. Sometimes there's no accounting for someone's logic.


I am by no means opposed to any vaccination efforts. I agree that the risk factors greatly favour vaccination. I am just seeking clarity about the math. 
The risk of clotting for the vaccinated you said to be approx. 1 in 250,000
The risk of death from covid among the general population is approx. 1 in 2500 ? Is my napkin right? That is 3 million deaths out of 7 billion people, which is what worldometer tells me is the death toll.

That would mean you have about a 100 times greater chance of dying from covid than getting a clot from the vaccine, yes?


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

The risk of dying from covid varies person to person. It's a contagious disease so the risk of getting it varies depending on your mobility and contact with others, and how long covid is around and a threat to you. In a hotspot this could be a 90% chance of you getting covid in the next year, for example. Live on an island with supplies for 1 year and it might be a 0.01% chance of getting covid.
Then there's the risk if dying if you get it. It varies depending on your biology. On average it might be about 1 in 100 people that get covid die. But for some ages it is 1 in 3, for others 1 in 1000. Or 1 in 10,000.

The risk of dying from covid is these 2 risks combined. It could work out to be 1 in 3, or 1 in 10,000, depending on lots of factors. 
An individual can control the first risk, depending on home and work situation. Wash hands, wear masks, limit contact, work from home, etc. Front line workers are at a much bigger risk because they have to interact with so many people everyday. Working from home is a huge reduction in risk to getting the disease.

The 2nd risk is unknown for any person, as it depends on your biology (age, preexisting conditions, general health, immune response, etc...) and how you are treated if you get it (quality of health care, if any). No oxygen in your hospital... your risk f death goes way up (as happened in India).

So the risk of dying from covid vs blood clot could be 200,000 times greater, or a 1000 times greater. Overall it looks like for most people the risk of a blood clot is so much less then dying from covid that the vaccine is recommended for everyone.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

mhammer said:


> Nothing to correct. You've pretty much nailed it.
> I've been concerned for a while that folks who don't understand how vaccines work might consider themselves instantly bulletproof and engage in risky behaviours while there is still considerable contagion out there. I'll be masking up and distancing well after a 2nd vaccination, until such time as the case count drops significantly. I have no desire to be an asymptomatic carrier.


I think you should take a big leap of faith and give people you don't know a little more credit. I don't know anyone who has received a vaccine that does not understand the basics.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

May 5. Wife and I both go. Pfizer jab.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

jb welder said:


> I am by no means opposed to any vaccination efforts. I agree that the risk factors greatly favour vaccination. I am just seeking clarity about the math.
> The risk of clotting for the vaccinated you said to be approx. 1 in 250,000
> The risk of death from covid among the general population is approx. 1 in 2500 ? Is my napkin right? That is 3 million deaths out of 7 billion people, which is what worldometer tells me is the death toll.
> 
> That would mean you have about a 100 times greater chance of dying from covid than getting a clot from the vaccine, yes?


While I agree that getting the jab is far better for you than getting the virus I think that the numbers on blood clots are too few to rely on. That "1 in 250,000" was based on 4 people with clots out of a million (I believe). There has been one more with clots since then - which changes the number to 1 in 200,000. Half a dozen would change that proportion a lot more. It's early days. Regardless, my Maggs is trying hard to get the AZ shot ASAP. The thing that worries her most is that the NACI withdrew from giving their last statement minutes before they were supposed to - WHY?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

zztomato said:


> I think you should take a big leap of faith and give people you don't know a little more credit. I don't know anyone who has received a vaccine that does not understand the basics.


I do give folks credit, but I doubt there is anyone here who has ever lived through a pandemic. Moreover, I would hasten to guess that none of us here have ever received a vaccination of any sort for something that was, or had recently, run rampant through our community. We got the poke, winced, and didn't think about the time frame of associated protective measures any more because there was no local risk of contagion. When you got your DPT vaccination as a child, what was the actual risk of contracting any of those diseases, locally? Perhaps some people got vaccinated in anticipation of some foreign trip, but that would have likely been several weeks in advance of departure, and the resort stayed at would not likely have had guests hacking their brains out. I suppose the closest comparator would be the annual flu shot. We are encouraged to get those early in the fall, well before flu season peaks, such that we have had time to develop relevant immunities. How many think about that time frame?

So it's not any sort of attribution of stupidity. Rather, people adapt better, and more planfully, to what is familiar, and may fail to take appropriate measures in a highly unfamiliar context. And how one should plan and behave in the midst of a pandemic is something that precious few of us are familiar with.

There is much that people have been deprived of these past 13 months. I don't blame them for their impatience. I worry about it, but I don't blame them for it. If I was blessed with grandchildren, I think I'd be busting at the seams to hug them again, too. But as I keep repeating, much of the world's misery can be traced back to someone thinking "But I was just going to...." or "What could it hurt if I just....". And of course, so many diseases continue unabated and mutate because people decide that they feel so *much* better now, that they don't have to take their antibiotics for the full 10 days. That urge to cut a few corners is a risky universal.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

allthumbs56 said:


> While I agree that getting the jab is far better for you than getting the virus I think that the numbers on blood clots are too few to rely on. That "1 in 250,000" was based on 4 people with clots out of a million (I believe). There has been one more with clots since then - which changes the number to 1 in 200,000. Half a dozen would change that proportion a lot more. It's early days. Regardless, my Maggs is trying hard to get the AZ shot ASAP. The thing that worries her most is that the NACI withdrew from giving their last statement minutes before they were supposed to - WHY?


The incidence of clots has been aggregated across all those countries keeping good numbers, both for clotting-cases as well as vaccination. I think you are right to reason that 4 is a bloody small number to draw strong inferences from, but the number of clotting cases, collated across all nations, is much larger than that. However, it is out of millions and millions of administered vaccine doses.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

mhammer said:


> But as I keep repeating, much of the world's misery can be traced back to someone thinking "But I was just going to...." or "What could it hurt if I just...."


But actually this is mostly wrong. Most of the spread these days is due to housing conditions, folks in front line jobs not being properly protected, lack of sick pay etc. Minimum wage earners at big sorting facilities, or meat packing plants and such, catch it, bring it home to their families, and then they all get it. 
There are always people who will be stupid- anti-science, anti-government control- you name it. 
Anyway, I don't post much in this section -for good reason. I'm going to take a break from this now. Maybe you should too?


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> The incidence of clots has been aggregated across all those countries keeping good numbers, both for clotting-cases as well as vaccination. I think you are right to reason that 4 is a bloody small number to draw strong inferences from, but the number of clotting cases, collated across all nations, is much larger than that. However, it is out of millions and millions of administered vaccine doses.


Yup - we understand and are fine with the odds - even 1 in 10,000 is still pretty good if it got to that.

What's giving us pause is the NACI backing away from the mic at the last minute. I think we want to hear why.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

zztomato said:


> But actually this is mostly wrong. Most of the spread these days is due to housing conditions, folks in front line jobs not being properly protected, lack of sick pay etc. Minimum wage earners at big sorting facilities, or meat packing plants and such, catch it, bring it home to their families, and then they all get it.
> There are always people who will be stupid- anti-science, anti-government control- you name it.
> Anyway, I don't post much in this section -for good reason. I'm going to take a break from this now. Maybe you should too?


This is exact true. Those people are at huge risk to get it and transmit, and they have no choice but to keep working. 
If I was in charge.... vaccines should be going to all those people right now asap. Care homes and hospitals are done... it should be crowded essential workers next.
Me at my basement office...ordering my food to get delivered.. I should be pretty much last in line.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

zztomato said:


> I think you should take a big leap of faith and give people you don't know a little more credit.


I think most people understand that Mark does not speak/write in "sound bites". He uses whole sentences in paragraphs and completes them, along with the thought processes involved. People used to speak like that all the time instead of an emoji, three letter acronym, and a smiley face. I'm old, so I appreciate it. I can read and write (though mostly illegible) cursive too.

Sorry, I didn't mean to point you out specifically. I just see the misunderstanding at times about Mark's "gift of gab". As I said, I kinda like it.

No offense to Mark either, I just thought everyone knew from experience about your gift of prose.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I think most people understand that Mark does not speak/write in "sound bites". He uses whole sentences in paragraphs and completes them, along with the thought processes involved. People used to speak like that all the time instead of an emoji, three letter acronym, and a smiley face. I'm old, so I appreciate it. I can read and write (though mostly illegible) cursive too.
> 
> Sorry, I didn't mean to point you out specifically. I just see the misunderstanding at times about Mark's "gift of gab". As I said, I kinda like it.
> 
> No offense to Mark either, I just thought everyone knew from experience about your gift of prose.


Only reason I own a guitar is to have an excuse to come here and read Mark's posts...


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> Yup - we understand and are fine with the odds - even 1 in 10,000 is still pretty good if it got to that.
> 
> What's giving us pause is the NACI backing away from the mic at the last minute. I think we want to hear why.


Ask and ye' shall receive. New data hot off the U.K. presses.









AstraZeneca blood clot risk doubles, data show, but benefits 'still outweigh risks'







www.telegraph.co.uk





_"The risk of a serious blood clot from AstraZeneca jab has doubled in a fortnight, new data show, but the Government's regulatory agency has said the benefits still outweigh the risks._​​_Cases have gone up from 79 to 168 and deaths from 19 to 32, according to the Government's Yellowcard system which allows people to report vaccine side-effects._​​_The chance of having a clot has gone from one in 250,000 to one in 126,582."_​


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Thanks for the support, guys. I appreciate it. You shouldn't encourage me  , but I appreciate it all the same.

I suspect most governments, and probably even their scientific and public health advisors, were largely unprepared for this. Last year, in the midst of the first wave, observers were saying that SARS and MERS had prepared us for this, and was responsible for a prompt and somewhat effective response, prior to the arrival of vaccines. But it's a bit like saying that playing basketball prepares one for soccer or hockey. Yes, they all have passing to team-mates, avoiding blockages, and getting an object into a specific location, but the similarities kind of end there, so SARS and MERS took us about as far as they could, and the rest we struggled with. Moreover, there were only a few places in the country where there was much of anything that could constitute an outbreak. SARS was classified as a "global outbreak" rather than a global pandemic; the difference being that there were concerns about outbreaks in multiple countries turning_ into_ a pandemic, but not so many cases as to _constitute_ a pandemic.

I mention this because, while these two instances may have prepared hospitals for precautions to take, and there were prompt restrictions on people flying in from certain foreign locations, no one had to make decisions about wholesale public restrictions, business shutdown, land border closures, school closures, etc. Only 44 people in Canada died from SARS. I wish any major Canadian city could lay claim to that small number at this time.

In that light, what were public health officials, infectious disease specialists, and epidemiologists supposed to advise? Not that consensus always comes easily, but how was consensus going to be arrived at? Some suggestions were clearly out to lunch, but even amongst those with considerable expertise in containing contagious disease, I doubt whether there was the sort of complete agreement on measures to take, that we would have hoped for. And with vaccines being hurriedly developed, tested and produced in response to a holy-shit-what-are-we-going-to-do-now panic, all those experts also had to adapt their recommendations to the reality that we didn't instantly have enough vaccine and administration capacity to provide it to everyone, so decision-makers had to start thinking about priority populations - something they probably hadn't given much thought to.

Between 2012 and 2015, the Harper government asked federal departments to chop something like 8.5% off their budgets. Some departments had an easier time, by deferring major equipment or real-estate purchases, or cutting grants handed out. But other departments could only find the savings by cutting staff, and so began the notorious "workforce adjustment". Managers had to pass on recommendations about who in their units would be "declared surplus". I had the privilege of surveying tens of thousands of employees and managers who were involved in this, and reading through thousands of their comments. It was a godawful mess, and eroded morale. Why? To my mind it was because there probably isn't a manager alive who hasn't thought about how much *more* they could accomplish if they only had X amount larger budget to work with, and Y amount of additional staff. But there probably aren't *any* managers who lie in bed staring at the ceiling, devoting even a second to thinking "Hmm, if push came to shove and I had to shrink my team, what's the _least_ I could still do alright with? Which employees would I keep and which let go?". The result was that they scrambled without much of a clear plan, did a shitty job of it, and hurt a lot of people. Not because they're mean and stupid, but because THEY HAD NEVER EVER DONE ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY LIKE THIS.

And so it is, I think, with this pandemic. We all have to make decisions we've never had to make before, and we're bloody clumsy at it. It would be great if it was all as straightforward as making toast or filling up the gas tank. But it's not.

I agree wholeheartedly with zz that crowded housing and working conditions represent major sources of contagion, and that paid sick leave is the responsible thing to do. But as I have repeated in many occasions, public policy drafted in response to current or recent events is usually sloppy and poor policy. Are people willing to wait for "good" thoughtful policy? Would the consequences be worse if we did wait for all the relevant consultation? Who knows? We've never been in this position before.


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