# Tops and Subs vs. Big 3-Way Cabs



## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

I'm talking strictly powered cabinets here, btw.

I'm currently running a pair of Yorkville NX55P tops with a pair of Yorkville Elite LS700P subs. The PA is outdated, a little underpowered, and bulky.

I'm wondering how a system like this compares to something like either of the big JBL 3-way cabs. 










The JBL SRX835P is 2000w, rated at 137 db peak and a very respectable 41 Hz - 20 kHz at -3. It goes down to 33hz at -10db.










The PRX835 1500w, rated at 138db peak and 42 Hz - 20 kHz at -3. It goes down to 35hz at -10db.

I'm thinking less boxes is better and these seem like they go plenty loud!


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Personally I am not a fan of subs for a portable system that will be used in a different environment every time (this is for gigs right?). Speaker placement (especially as regards proximity to boundaries) effects not only a speake's bass response but also the point at which sound becomes non-directional making subwoofer integration a guessing game each time. A hole in the lower mids? Bad subwoofer integration. Muddy PA sound despite the usual fixes for that? You guessed it.

So yeah 3 way. ... but what are you putting in the PA that goes anywhere near that low that a nice small pair of pole-mounted 2 ways won't do?

... the main upside to smaller mains + subs is smaller boxes that will -fit through your car door/trunk/tailgate if hatchback etc and are easier to carry, but if you're a lumberjack with a van off you go then.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Judging by the videos on your website, I would stick with tops and subs. I think you will disappointed with an all-in-one solution.

Can you afford Parasource by Yorkville? PS10P with PS12S? Listen to them anyway, just for reference. Smaller cabs but, they sound good to me. Bigger stuff available in that line too. 

My two cents fwiw.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Personally I am not a fan of subs for a portable system that will be used in a different environment every time (this is for gigs right?). Speaker placement (especially as regards proximity to boundaries) effects not only a speake's bass response but also the point at which sound becomes non-directional making subwoofer integration a guessing game each time. A hole in the lower mids? Bad subwoofer integration. Muddy PA sound despite the usual fixes for that? You guessed it.
> 
> So yeah 3 way. ... but what are you putting in the PA that goes anywhere near that low that a nice small pair of pole-mounted 2 ways won't do?
> 
> ... the main upside to smaller mains + subs is smaller boxes that will -fit through your car door/trunk/tailgate if hatchback etc and are easier to carry, but if you're a lumberjack with a van off you go then.


We do a LOT of modern Top 40, so a lot of synths/keys in the mix, plus bass and drums are in there. Also, my Helix rig also features a lot of EHX B9 and Synth9 content, which goes pretty low. 


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

KapnKrunch said:


> Judging by the videos on your website, I would stick with tops and subs. I think you will disappointed with an all-in-one solution.
> 
> Can you afford Parasource by Yorkville? PS10P with PS12S? Listen to them anyway, just for reference. Smaller cabs but, they sound good to me. Bigger stuff available in that line too.
> 
> My two cents fwiw.


The Parasource is exactly the other option I looking at as a potential upgrade. I’d probably go with the PS12P tops with the PS12S sub, just for the added headroom. 


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

hollowbody said:


> The Parasource is exactly the other option I looking at as a potential upgrade. I’d probably go with the PS12P tops with the PS12S sub, just for the added headroom.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I am jealous. Great gear. Good decision to go bigger.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

You listed the specs of those 3-ways. Well, everything but the weight!

I suspect you'd have to put them on stands or tables or something to get the HF devices above the crowd, so they disperse correctly. They look like they'd be nasty to lift up, not to mention getting them in and out of a vehicle. 

I'd opt for small MF/HF boxes and separate subs. We've done that for years (both JBL and Yorkfille boxes) and I've never had a problem dialing them in from room to room and the are much easier to deal with physically. The few times I've used Parasource stuff, I've loved it (rentals or supplied FOH). Great sound equipment.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

hollowbody said:


> The Parasource is exactly the other option I looking at as a potential upgrade. I’d probably go with the PS12P tops with the PS12S sub, just for the added headroom.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I see that the PS12P weighs 60lbs and the PS12S weighs 65lbs. Sketchy balance maybe? The PS15S at 85lbs is recommended with the PS12P. Too big? Hmmm.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

High/Deaf said:


> You listed the specs of those 3-ways. Well, everything but the weight!
> 
> I suspect you'd have to put them on stands or tables or something to get the HF devices above the crowd, so they disperse correctly. They look like they'd be nasty to lift up, not to mention getting them in and out of a vehicle.
> 
> I'd opt for small MF/HF boxes and separate subs. We've done that for years (both JBL and Yorkfille boxes) and I've never had a problem dialing them in from room to room and the are much easier to deal with physically. The few times I've used Parasource stuff, I've loved it (rentals or supplied FOH). Great sound equipment.


In all honesty, I think the big JBLs are easier to move than the subs we have now. The LS700Ps are 90lbs and a big, awkward box. The JBLs are narrow enough for one person to comfortably heave, although I'd definitely need a hand from a bandmate to get them up on stands!

The hope is to reduce setup and teardown with one cab instead of two, and I'm hoping they take-up less space than a top/sub combo. I haven't seen either in person, though, so it's hard to gauge just how big they are from the dimensions alone. They're about 10 or 12 inches taller than the NX55P I have now and obviously a bit wider and deeper.



KapnKrunch said:


> I see that the PS12P weighs 60lbs and the PS12S weighs 65lbs. Sketchy balance maybe? The PS15S at 85lbs is recommended with the PS12P. Too big? Hmmm.


That's my one concern about the PS12S as well. I saw those specs and wasn't sure about it, either. The PS12S is recommended with the PS10P, but I'm not loving the 127db limit on the PS10P. That's only 2db more than the NX55P I have now, and the power amp specs lead me to believe that I'll have headroom issues with those, too. I put everything into the PA, and we can be a pretty loud band when the venue calls for it - anywhere where I'm hauling top and subs is a party place where the PA is basically maxed-out and I'm watching the limiter light-up all night on the mains. I like a nice, clear vocal to sit on top of everything and sometimes it's hard because I just run out of headroom, so I'm hoping to get mains with a LOT more power.

I guess the PS12P and PS15S is where I would go if I went tops/subs again - it's a small savings in weight and size:
PS15s: 61 x 44.2 x 50.8 82lbs
LS700p: 62.1 x 61 x 44.5 90.4lbs


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

hollowbody said:


> In all honesty, I think the big JBLs are easier to move than the subs we have now. The LS700Ps are 90lbs and a big, awkward box. The JBLs are narrow enough for one person to comfortably heave, although I'd definitely need a hand from a bandmate to get them up on stands!
> 
> The hope is to reduce setup and teardown with one cab instead of two, and I'm hoping they take-up less space than a top/sub combo. I haven't seen either in person, though, so it's hard to gauge just how big they are from the dimensions alone. They're about 10 or 12 inches taller than the NX55P I have now and obviously a bit wider and deeper.
> 
> ...


I have been thinking about this stuff. I am coming out of "retirement" to play for a singer-songwriter. 

We have a four-piece band lined up, but last week it was just me and him with an acoustic amp for his guitar and vocals and me thru a YGM3. Like heaven with that tiny gear. Dang, I would even drop guitar and play bass thru a little amp as a folk duo to avoid lugging gear. Sigh... 

With the quartet however, I am seriously thinking of skipping the sub and just using a free-standing bass amp for Paul the bass player. Just like the old days. 

All original material and no need to make money, so we can do whatever we like. 

One problem could be the drummer. I know he likes to move around his electric kit. Let him lug a sub then, eh? Lol. 

In your case, my guess is you will have to bite the bullet and transport some decent size gear. Thank goodness the upgrade is a little smaller, not a little bigger.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

KapnKrunch said:


> I have been thinking about this stuff. I am coming out of "retirement" to play for a singer-songwriter.
> 
> We have a four-piece band lined up, but last week it was just me and him with an acoustic amp for his guitar and vocals and me thru a YGM3. Like heaven with that tiny gear. Dang, I would even drop guitar and play bass thru a little amp as a folk duo to avoid lugging gear. Sigh...
> 
> ...


Yeah, the places we play need us to be loud and deep. There's usually a DJ in-between sets as well, so the kids are bopping along to hip-hop/top 40 with really heavy-hitting bass during the DJ sets, so we can't go up there and play stuff that doesn't go as deep and hit as hard. I'd rather have more than I need and not use it than the opposite!

I'm resigned to a fairly big expense to upgrade, but yeah...I'm hoping I can at least make it a wee touch easier to get in and out!


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

You might find a big improvement just trading up to nx750p tops. Much fuller if used as mains and won't break the bank. I wouldn't use the 55s for any more than monitors for modern rock. YMMV.

But if you have the cash to upgrade, parasource is damn nice. Or the paraline arrays. One sub at center and two midrange arrays sound rediculously balanced and is scaleable if need to rent more HP.. but bring $$$. 

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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Suggestion: Rent first to see what works, then buy.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

hollowbody said:


> In all honesty, I think the big JBLs are easier to move than the subs we have now. The LS700Ps are 90lbs and a big, awkward box. The JBLs are narrow enough for one person to comfortably heave, although I'd definitely need a hand from a bandmate to get them up on stands!
> 
> The hope is to reduce setup and teardown with one cab instead of two, and I'm hoping they take-up less space than a top/sub combo. I haven't seen either in person, though, so it's hard to gauge just how big they are from the dimensions alone. They're about 10 or 12 inches taller than the NX55P I have now and obviously a bit wider and deeper.


Yea, some of those subs can be a beast. But I consider subs a two man job whereas it's nice if one person can hoist the mids/highs onto a stand by themselves. Subs goes from the tailgate of the truck (or back of the van) to the floor of the venue with no more vertical lift than that. We've used an older pair of JBL Eon 15s on poles that work well for our needs - but we're not a loud rock band having to compliment (or would that be compete) with a DJ so definitely, YMMV. LOL



TheYanChamp said:


> But if you have the cash to upgrade, parasource is damn nice. Or the paraline arrays. One sub at center and two midrange arrays sound rediculously balanced and is scaleable if need to rent more HP.. but bring $$$.


I've rented or had as a supplied PA some Parasource boxes. They were great. A bit pricey to buy though. I like the way multiple boxes integrate so well, it's easy to add more for more dispersion or level.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

High/Deaf said:


> You listed the specs of those 3-ways. Well, everything but the weight!
> 
> I suspect you'd have to put them on stands or tables or something to get the HF devices above the crowd, so they disperse correctly. They look like they'd be nasty to lift up, not to mention getting them in and out of a vehicle.
> 
> I'd opt for small MF/HF boxes and separate subs. We've done that for years (both JBL and Yorkfille boxes) and I've never had a problem dialing them in from room to room and the are much easier to deal with physically. The few times I've used Parasource stuff, I've loved it (rentals or supplied FOH). Great sound equipment.


We sometimes use an old pair of Yorkville E215's for FOH. They're taller and heavier than the JBL's mentioned here. As long as the stage has a bit of height (more than a foot) they deliver the sound to a room very well and they fit in the back of our bass player's Kia Santa Fe so the size alone should not be a stopper. The Yorkvilles are about 115 pounds each but do have built in wheels.


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

Just my opinion but depending on how much the JBL's are worth and how many gigs you are doing, renting is sometimes a good option.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

allthumbs56 said:


> We sometimes use an old pair of Yorkville E215's for FOH. They're taller and heavier than the JBL's mentioned here. As long as the stage has a bit of height (more than a foot) they deliver the sound to a room very well and they fit in the back of our bass player's Kia Santa Fe so the size alone should not be a stopper. The Yorkvilles are about 115 pounds each but do have built in wheels.


Yep, lots of ways to skin a cat (and Peta can go to hell if they don't like that expression  ). 

I remember, as a younger lad, stacking multiple 4560s and loading and unloading butterfly bass bins. Schlepping power amp racks that probably weighed 150lbs. But we were full of piss and vinegar and 'going somewhere' so the effort was worth it. I prefer to use 'just enough' now and try to limit my exertion, knowing now it is just a hobby and always will be only that. 

Big boxes sound great and may do a slightly better job, so do big guitar amps. Some types of gigs and music genres require better systems, half stacks, etc. and some can get by with 'just enough'. But the audience just wants to dance, dance, dance, they don't really care about the idiosyncrasies as long as they can hear it well enough and loud enough to have fun. Work what works and have fun doing it.


And to correct myself earlier (I mis-spoke twice), it was those fabulous Yorkie Paraline boxes I used a couple times. Parasource is good too, but those little line array boxes (at about $1900 per) blew me away. Really a great product, but generally way overkill for what we do most of the time. If we could justify it, I'd have a couple of those (or better yet, a couple a side). If my Meyer UPA-1A's were a little lighter and oriented to pole-mounting instead of flying, I would take them out. They can stun large rampaging animals at 100 paces (again, bite me Peta) but require multiple amps, crossovers, etc - just lots more stuff to move and remove. I'm into KISS ....... and no, not the band so much.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

High/Deaf said:


> Yep, lots of ways to skin a cat (and Peta can go to hell if they don't like that expression  ).
> 
> I remember, as a younger lad, stacking multiple 4560s and loading and unloading butterfly bass bins. Schlepping power amp racks that probably weighed 150lbs. But we were full of piss and vinegar and 'going somewhere' so the effort was worth it. I prefer to use 'just enough' now and try to limit my exertion, knowing now it is just a hobby and always will be only that.
> 
> ...


When we were "on our way to the top" it was Shure columns 

As I said we don't often use those big boxes. A pair of Elite 15's (or 12's even) on sticks and a Yorkville Micromix is all we need for the 40 - 100 person bars we play in.


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

High/Deaf said:


> Yep, lots of ways to skin a cat (and Peta can go to hell if they don't like that expression  ).
> 
> I remember, as a younger lad, stacking multiple 4560s and loading and unloading butterfly bass bins. Schlepping power amp racks that probably weighed 150lbs. But we were full of piss and vinegar and 'going somewhere' so the effort was worth it. I prefer to use 'just enough' now and try to limit my exertion, knowing now it is just a hobby and always will be only that.
> 
> ...


Yeah. Paraline is what I was referring to. Worth every penny if they get used regularly. 

My favorite part other than the light setup was the balanced sound. Barely had to touch any eq anywhere doing an outdoor stage on a main st. Using two mid arrays and one bass bin. Forgot what model but looked like a 215 or maybe 218.

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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

marcos said:


> Just my opinion but depending on how much the JBL's are worth and how many gigs you are doing, renting is sometimes a good option.


I already have money invested in PA, so I'd be selling-off old gear to fund new stuff. We play enough that we'd break even on purch vs. rental within a year, so that's not a major issue for me. 

As far as rentals go, I prefer owning mostly because you don't always know what you're going to get at the L&M rental counter, plus it's an extra trip someone has to take twice. Lastly, we use a digital mixer, so I generally save presets based on a room and adjust from there. That's much easier when I have consistent FoH bins.



High/Deaf said:


> Big boxes sound great and may do a slightly better job, so do big guitar amps. Some types of gigs and music genres require better systems, half stacks, etc. and some can get by with 'just enough'. But the audience just wants to dance, dance, dance, they don't really care about the idiosyncrasies as long as they can hear it well enough and loud enough to have fun. Work what works and have fun doing it.





allthumbs56 said:


> As I said we don't often use those big boxes. A pair of Elite 15's (or 12's even) on sticks and a Yorkville Micromix is all we need for the 40 - 100 person bars we play in.


We're lucky enough that about half our shows have PA & sound tech on-site and we don't have to worry about sound, but the other half require not only a PA, but a significant one. A couple of the rooms we play get absolutely packed (500+ people easy) and we need a PA that absolutely _*pounds*. _In those situations, having something with tons of headroom that can go into the 130db range without clipping and put out a TON of low-end is essential. Kids don't give much of a shit what I'm doing when I'm not ripping solos, so we need clear vocals on top of a ton of drums and bass.

In my experience so far, it's not so much the low-end extension, but the volume that gets the kids really going. Subs are great, and I love how the drum kit sounds through the 700Ps (those 2x10 subs are SUPER FAST on the attack), but if I can get more overall volume and lose a little bit of extension below 50hz, that's a decent trade-off.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

hollowbody said:


> I already have money invested in PA, so I'd be selling-off old gear to fund new stuff. We play enough that we'd break even on purch vs. rental within a year, so that's not a major issue for me.
> 
> As far as rentals go, I prefer owning mostly because you don't always know what you're going to get at the L&M rental counter, plus it's an extra trip someone has to take twice. Lastly, we use a digital mixer, so I generally save presets based on a room and adjust from there. That's much easier when I have consistent FoH bins.
> 
> ...


No argument here. A crowd of 500 requires serious coverage.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

allthumbs56 said:


> No argument here. A crowd of 500 requires serious coverage.


Yep, can confirm. 

And some genres, crowds and venues require the whomp of a big system. I miss those days ........... although not all the schlepping.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

High/Deaf said:


> Yep, can confirm.
> 
> And some genres, crowds and venues require the whomp of a big system. I miss those days ........... although not all the schlepping.


I’m looking forward to missing it!! 


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

High/Deaf said:


> Yep, can confirm.
> 
> And some genres, crowds and venues require the whomp of a big system. I miss those days ........... although not all the schlepping.


Disco was all about bass - Rock was about being hit in the chest


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