# Creamery's "Charlie Christian" (or other brands) pickup in a humbucker format. Anyone tried one?



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I was talking to a fellow that put one of these in the neck of his jazz box. *Creamery* is a British company that has several pickups to choose from.

Has anyone ever heard/bought this specific pickup?

I'm surprised by the low DCR (in red below) 
*
Creamery Custom, Modern & Alternative Design, Replacement Humbucker Pickups*
*Charlie Christian - Humbucker Size*









Magnets Alnico 5
Coil Wire 38AWG
Lead Wire Vintage Cloth Covered with Separate Ground Wire
Neck Output 2.9k 

*Clear, defined, big, round jazzier sound.*
Wound with much thicker coil wire to a seemingly lower output - don't let that fool you. With strong custom made Alnico 5 magnets the Charlie Christian Humbucker size is a fat, round jazzy sound that keeps clarity & string definition. Its a unique sound that works perfect in the neck position for those wanting vintage, jazzier sounds from a direct drop-in replacement Humbucker neck position pickup.

A single plated steel blade sits at the heart of the design inside a scatterwound coil of much thicker 38awg coil wire, and I experimented with a variety of magnet grades and sizes until finally working on a duo of custom made Alnico 5s to get the sound I was after.

Available in a custom chrome slit groove design cover, the new Dark Line pickups are direct drop-in replacements - I spent a long time getting the design of these just right, putting them aside, coming back to them - a real labour of love.

Made with a separate ground wire for the cover & baseplate to ensure it will work in-phase with other make bridge pickups.

Thanks for your comments.

Cheers

Dave


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

1) 2.9k is not the output. It is the DC resistance. If one was using the more familiar #42 gauge wire, on a familiar bobbin size, then one could draw rough inferences about output from DC resistance, since more turns = higher output and higher resistance.

2) #38 wire is a _lot_ thicker than #42, and linear resistance drops with gauge faster than you'd think. For instance #38 has a linear resistance per foot that is just under 63% of that of #40. So even 2.9k could be the result of the same number of turns we would associate with a P90.

3) We don't know what the internal circumference of the coil is. The blade might be a whole lot smaller circumference than the polepieces on a Strat or screws on a P90. Which means you can stuff a LOT of turns on that thing and still have a low DCR.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mhammer said:


> 2.9k is not the *output.* It is the DC resistance


"output" was quoted directly from their website. I used the term DCR rather than "output"

Interesting information that you posted.

I am primarily curious to know (subjectively) if the tone that is stated was actually achieved ...AND if the actual (signal) output is consistent with what would (possibly) be expected from a DCR of 2.9K ohms (e.g., similar to the decrease in output seen in vintage voiced Strat pickups at around 6.0 K ohms DCR or so).

Maybe (I'm now betting "likely") I am 'missing the point(s) you are making in 2) and 3).

Thanks for helping me to understand this.


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## nnieman (Jun 19, 2013)

I’m no expert on them..... but I’ve been thinking of buying one.

Soap Bar Charlie Christian

I guess they are fairly low output but still fairly loud.
Like vintage style strat pickups.

I’m not familiar with the creamery at all.

Nathan


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

greco said:


> "output" was quoted directly from their website. I used the term DCR rather than "output"
> 
> Interesting information that you posted.
> 
> ...


The tone of a pickup is partly related to the dimensions and form-factor of the coil, as well as the magnet type/strength, etc. The more turns in the coil (in the absence of any transformer like the Lace Alumitones), the higher the output. But bear in mind the coil is, at the same time, an inductor. The resonant peak/s of the coil will vary with its inductive properties. That's why coil-cancelling changes the tone of an HB: leaving only one coil in play changes where the resonant peak/s is/are found. The sensing area is still largely between the top-facing slugs. 

The shape of the coil will also change the inductive properties. Jazzmaster and Strat pickups both use Alnico polepieces, but sound somewhat different. Where the Strat coil is taller, and the wire distance travelled, per turn, is shorter, the Jazzmaster is short and flat, such that the middle and outer turns involve a greater length of wire per-turn than a Strat. I'm sure there are other parameters that matter as well, but having the outer turns be essentially "farther away" from the polepieces alters how disturbances of the magnetic field induces voltage in those turns.

So how does this connect 2 and 3? If I start with an HB or P90 footprint, then I have to figure out a way to stuff as many turns as I need into that space. #38 will take up more room, per turn, than #42 (the usual gauge). It will also have much lower linear resistance (i.e., resistance per foot or meter of wire). If I'm aiming for a reasonable output, then I have to find a way to fit all those turns into that space. (I recently ran into this problem, trying to fit enough turns of #42 into the space of an old DeArmond pickup that I'm now realizing used something thinner; I could only fit in about 4800 turns, so the pickup "works" but has a wimpy output). Winding around a blade does not require as much wire length - at least for inner turns - and permits fitting more of a thicker wire into the limited physical space of a P90 footprint.

In general, I have found that lower-DCR pickups are a bit brighter than those described as overwound (e.g., single-coil DCR of 8k+ or humbucker DCR of 10k+). Some of this is because of what isn't lost due to loading by 
a higher-DCR pickup. And some of it is because "overwinding" implies more turns added to the outside of the coil (the inner turns tend to "catch" more top end). And some is because increasing the number of turns changes the inductance and lower the resonant peak/s. When you switch wire gauges, you end up affecting many of the other parameters. People tend to stick with #42 because it's a known quantity - kind of like the role of lab rats in medical research; not the "best" model of human biology, but we know how to interpret the data they provide. One can use any of a variety of other gauges, as long as you tweak all the other things that need tweaking to arrive at the same tonal and output-level goals.

Though some of his other books can be hit and miss, I found Dave Hunter's _Guitar Pickup Handbook _clarifies the interplay of the different parameters very nicely.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

@mhammer Thank you very much for your long, well-written (as always) and
informative post. It further clarified my understanding of DCR as it relates to pickups and brought to light many other parameters that I was not aware of (e.g., inner and outer turns, etc).

Thanks again.

Cheers

Dave


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

You gonna buy it?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

It is in a guitar that I am hoping to take a look at. The seller (Kijiji) is in Huntsville. However, his friend (who apparently lives a few blocks from me) is visiting him in late September and will bring the guitar back to Kitchener with him. Very considerate of the seller. I also think it will sell faster in this area if the friend puts it up on Kijiji here. It is an Epi ES 175.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I am bringing this thread back to life to see if anyone here has tried a Creamery Charlie Christian (CC) pickup or any other CC style pickup in a humbucker format.

Unfortunately, I didn't get the opportunity to try the Epi ES 175 from Huntsville that is mentioned in the post above.

Thanks for your comments.


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## starjag (Jan 30, 2008)

@greco did you find if the pickups are regular humbucker sized? 2.75” x 1.5”?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

starjag said:


> @greco did you find if the pickups are regular humbucker sized? 2.75” x 1.5”?


Yes...The PRS humbuckers are the standard size. 

I think what I might have read is that the PRS plastic pickup *rings* are proprietary. 
Any comments from anyone about issues with the ring size? Calling @Budda


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Never had issues doing swaps on SE's or my custom 22's. Not sure if the design has since changed.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

Only experience with CC’s are single coil Lollars in a Tele. Not Creamery, but certainly Dreamery (sic).


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

SWLABR said:


> Only experience with CC’s are single coil Lollars in a Tele. Not Creamery, but certainly Dreamery (sic).


Thanks! All comments related to CC's are very welcome.

Is that Tele one of yours? 
If yes, do you still have it with the CC in it?


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

greco said:


> Thanks! All comments related to CC's are very welcome.
> 
> Is that Tele one of yours?
> If yes, do you still have it with the CC in it?


No sir. It’s a good friends. I have coveted it, and play it almost exclusively when I (used to) visit.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Any further comments are much appreciated.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

One of the advantages of a blade is that there are no "gaps" created by a string vibrating between two poles or slugs. That's usually not a big problem anyway, but if it's going to help, a blade will help more in a neck pickup than a bridge pickup, since there is more "wiggle" closer to the midpoint of the string. Bend a string 3 frets, and you won't see much change in string position by the bridge, where you might move that same string over an adjacent polepiece/slug on the neck pickup.

One of the confounds with CC pickups is that Mr. Christian himself only ever used them in the neck position on an archtop guitar that was fully acoustic, with a wooden floating bridge. Folks like John Lennon would stick them on solid bodies, but play them loud for music wholly unrepresentative of their original application. In his case, it may have simply been the "cool" factor rather than anything sonically better.

At 2.9k DC resistance, they count as lower, if not "low", impedance. This has benefits for noise levels, and for bandwidth. Just how much it benefits bandwidth, I can't say. Consider the history of speaker and amplifier development, and I would imagine that the speakers of Mr. Christian's era had less top end than the average 12" Eminence of today. If one is fighting to retain crisp top end that the speaker normally works against, then lower impedance is a good thing. If that top end is in evidence even with an overwound high-impedance "beast", then low impedance may not be gifting you with something you didn't already have.

Which leaves "tone". There may be few _*strategic*_ advantages to a CC-type blade pickup, but if one sounds good to your ears on your instrument, then strategic advantages be damned.


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