# So... I sat in a Tesla Model S



## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

...and now I know for sure I will never get one. 

My wife and I were recently in Toronto to visit friends and family. A rare break from the daily grind for us. We had some down time, so we went over to Yorkdale mall so I could sit in the driver's seat of my dream car. The Tesla Model S.

Well... It took all of about 5 seconds for my "dream car" to fall out of favour. I sat down and put the seat as far back and as far down as it could go. I had plenty of leg room, but:
- The headrest (which is not adjustable) did not even reach past my neck up to the back of my head, so my neck would surely break in the event of a crash
- The transition between the windshield and the roof was right in the center of my field of vision. Meaning, I would have to slouch the entire time I was driving if I wanted to see clearly out the window.

The above are serious safety issues, and would be complete deal breakers. There were a number of other nitpicky things that kind of bothered me too, but that stuff could all be chalked up to personal preference. It's still a damn cool car that is moving automotive technology forward. It is just obviously not for people like me with long torsos who actually like to sit up straight and still see the road.

Let's be real though. I could never afford one anyways. %h(*&

At least now I know that even if I could afford one, I could just buy a much cheaper car and use the difference to buy some super cool gear!


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

There's a Telsa SUV that's supposed to be coming out! There's still hope for you!


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2016)

If you get to the point that you could afford to buy one,
you can afford to customize it too.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Sounds like my experience with Gretsch guitars. So often in life, something we think we're gonna want turns out to be less than our wildest dreams. Personally, I never really liked Corvettes after riding in one. Not a bad car, but not the fabulous experience I imagined it to be.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

mhammer said:


> not the fabulous experience I imagined it to be.


you know, i felt the same after my first marriage. i didn't like the way it rode either


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I cant wait for them to build a small car again. I am still loving my Smart electric and will never buy a gas car ever again..........


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I went to their website and priced one out at $197,000. A Great choice for the environmentalists as there's grants to make it affordable


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2016)

Bummer that you're far beyond average human being height. Have a friend who's 6'9" and he's picky as hell about cars because of that.

Bet if you'd had a chance to try it in ludicrous mode you'd change your mind and think the headrests were suddenly immaterial. 

That car drives like few others I've experienced. You'd never know it was as heavy as it is; center of gravity is super-car low to the ground because of the battery pack and the acceleration on the P85D is _stoooooooopid_. 

I'm stoked for the Model 3 unveiling next week. $1000 to pre-order. I'm in.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> I went to their website and priced one out at $197,000. A Great choice for the environmentalists as there's grants to make it affordable


That's a hell of a lot of money for a car built for short people and can only go a short distance at 55mph.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Electraglide said:


> That's a hell of a lot of money for a car built for short people and can only go a short distance at 55mph.


They start at less than $100k before incentives; as low as $90k with the tax credit in Quebec. *althumbs56* was clearly getting the fully loaded model with all added/extra features.

I wouldn't say it's for short people. I'm not overly tall, but I have this problem in TONS of vehicles. I have friends that are taller who don't have the same problem. It's a combination of having weird body proportions (slightly longer torso) and the fact that I actually like to sit up straight. I've seen pictures of myself driving. It looks funny. My own fault for preferring not to slouch or have the seat leaning back.

As for the "short distance". They advertise it as being a good long distance travel vehicle with the charging stations and whatnot, but I was never fooled. I always saw it as the ultimate daily driver. Even with only 300km of usable range (350km for the 85kWh model), I could charge it once every 2 weeks and it would cover my typical needs.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

jbealsmusic said:


> They start at less than $100k before incentives; as low as $90k with the tax credit in Quebec. *althumbs56* was clearly getting the fully loaded model with all added/extra features.
> 
> I wouldn't say it's for short people. I'm not overly tall, but I have this problem in TONS of vehicles. I have friends that are taller who don't have the same problem. It's a combination of having weird body proportions (slightly longer torso) and the fact that I actually like to sit up straight. I've seen pictures of myself driving. It looks funny. My own fault for preferring not to slouch or have the seat leaning back.
> 
> As for the "short distance". They advertise it as being a good long distance travel vehicle with the charging stations and whatnot, but I was never fooled. I always saw it as the ultimate daily driver. Even with only 300km of usable range (350km for the 85kWh model), I could charge it once every 2 weeks and it would cover my typical needs.


As you say, with charging stations. Which means that in western Canada the car will die in the middle of nowhere unless you carry a generator. Especially if you do speeds that the car seems to be capable of doing. Gives you a lot less that 300k. From what I understand cold temp. drops your range. I would imagine being parked outside for 8 hrs or so at -20'c would really eat into your range. Not too sure what the tax credits are out here but $90k+ is still a hell of a lot of money for a very limited car. As far as height goes, I'm about 6'3".....the way I sit there's very little leg room and my head brushes the roof. My son's a few inches taller.....he has to crouch. 
I'll keep my gas vehicles and use the money to go places.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Electraglide said:


> As you say, with charging stations. Which means that in western Canada the car will die in the middle of nowhere unless you carry a generator.


Hence, it is really only a daily driver for city folks. Charging stations are nearly non existent across Canada. There are some in BC, Alberta, southern/eastern Ontario, and southern Quebec, but that's it.


> Especially if you do speeds that the car seems to be capable of doing. Gives you a lot less that 300k. From what I understand cold temp. drops your range. I would imagine being parked outside for 8 hrs or so at -20'c would really eat into your range.


Just like a normal car, you use about 20%-40% more fuel/energy during winter driving (or maniac driving). Much higher if the roads are very snowy/icy. As for parking, one would hope the owner of such a vehicle would keep it parked indoors and/or use the battery warmer if parked outdoors for long periods.


> As far as height goes, I'm about 6'3".....the way I sit there's very little leg room and my head brushes the roof. My son's a few inches taller.....he has to crouch.


Sounds like me. There was plenty of leg room, but not being able to see clearly out the entire windshield was ... ludicrous. 


> I'll keep my gas vehicles and use the money to go places.


I'd use the money to cure my G.A.S.HNG^%$


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I think it's safe to say Tesla knows it will sell more of these in California than Canada. They'll get those Canadian bugs, like range and cold weather operations, sorted out for version 7 or 8. I don't think we're really on their radar screen at this point in time (although I do see a few of them in traffic).

I'd seriously consider a Volt ------- if it was made by a Japanese or South Korean car company. The majority of my commuting would be electric but I'd still have the range of a gasoline powered car. In concept, it's perfect. I don't trust Chevy's execution. Perhaps if they offered a 15 year warranty?


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

jbealsmusic said:


> They start at less than $100k before incentives; as low as $90k with the tax credit in Quebec. *althumbs56* was clearly getting the fully loaded model with all added/extra features.


You are correct sir - I built the highest priced one with all of the options.

The cheapest one (70D) starts at $101,900. They fool you into thinking you're getting a deal by showing, in large numbers, *$87,900,* but then going on to say this includes government incentives *AND THE ESTIMATED GAS SAVINGS OVER 5 YEARS.
*
After HST, the cheapest model would set you back $112,147.00 (with the $3000 incentive). I'd say that if you can afford that for a car then you probably aren't buying it because you can save money on gas.

https://www.teslamotors.com/en_CA/models/design?source=models-features1


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

allthumbs56 said:


> After HST, the cheapest model would set you back $112,147.00 (with the $3000 incentive).


You must have missed the rear-wheel vs all-wheel drive option.

P70D with rear-wheel drive:
$95,300 +HST = $107,689 after taxes (not counting any insentives)

-$3000 in Ontario
-$8000 in Quebec
Sadly, the rest of Canada gets not discounts.

I ignore the "estimated gas savings" portion. That's just a cheap marketing ploy.



> I'd say that if you can afford that for a car then you probably aren't buying it because you can save money on gas.


Agreed.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

jbealsmusic said:


> You must have missed the rear-wheel vs all-wheel drive option.


So I did 

Did I miss anything else that would bring it into my price range ................... is there one with just a rubber band for under 40k?


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Electraglide said:


> I'll keep my gas vehicles and use the money to go places.


Not holding out for the HD LiveWire?


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

jb welder said:


> Not holding out for the HD LiveWire?


Nope. Aside from the fact that I'd be sitting on the side of the road between say McBride and George with a very large solar panel if I wanted an electric bar hopper I'd go for something like this
http://lightningmotorcycle.com/product/specifications/
and never have to worry about G.A.S. again.....too many speeding tickets.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

jbealsmusic said:


> Hence, it is really only a daily driver for city folks. Charging stations are nearly non existent across Canada. There are some in BC, Alberta, southern/eastern Ontario, and southern Quebec, but that's it.
> Just like a normal car, you use about 20%-40% more fuel/energy during winter driving (or maniac driving). Much higher if the roads are very snowy/icy. As for parking, one would hope the owner of such a vehicle would keep it parked indoors and/or use the battery warmer if parked outdoors for long periods.
> Sounds like me. There was plenty of leg room, but not being able to see clearly out the entire windshield was ... ludicrous.
> I'd use the money to cure my G.A.S.HNG^%$


Actually Red Deer now has at least 7 charging stations. 5 are at one hotel and the others are less convenient. At work I park outside and about 100' away from an outlet. No option for parking inside/battery warmer. I drive 7 k to work.....aside from about a 1 k stretch the furthest I can drive without hitting a light or stop sign is now 3 blocks. I think that there's about as much leg room in a tesla as there is in my wife's Charger. I don't drive that because I get stuck in it with the seat all the way back.....no headroom in getting out the doors either. You'd figure that for a battery powered car they'd come out with something with 2 sets of batteries and a charging system.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Electraglide said:


> if I wanted an electric bar hopper I'd go for something like this
> http://lightningmotorcycle.com/product/specifications/
> and never have to worry about G.A.S. again.....too many speeding tickets.


Yeah baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> Nope. Aside from the fact that I'd be sitting on the side of the road between say McBride and George with a very large solar panel if I wanted an electric bar hopper I'd go for something like this
> http://lightningmotorcycle.com/product/specifications/
> and never have to worry about G.A.S. again.....too many speeding tickets.


Very cool ..................... but I'd need to ride for more than an hour and 40 minutes on a nice day.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

jb welder said:


> Yeah baby!!!!!!!!!!!!!


From the Towers to the WindJammer to the Turf then maybe, if you're lucky the Langley Hotel then maybe The Fort. By then I'd be phoning my niece to send one of the kids across the river on the ferry and save my ass. I'd have to rent the bike down there tho.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> Very cool ..................... but I'd need to ride for more than an hour and 40 minutes on a nice day.


Top speed I don't think you'd get that long. But at 218+mph/hr who cares. Then there is this.








0 t0 60 in under a sec. 
As far as riding goes, if tomorrow is like today here hopefully we'll burn a few tanks of gas....more than 1 hr 40 for sure.


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## Davidian (Sep 8, 2008)

I've been a passenger on a friends Model S every now and then. The acceleration is to say the least, very impressive - so much pull right from a stop, yet silent. The interior (aside from the large tablet display) is plain, almost concept car-like, but i guess they were going for the minimalist thing.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2016)

here's a Harley that's great on gas. lol.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

laristotle said:


> here's a Harley that's great on gas. lol.


Not too sure what happened when I was going to post this, but, if I'm going to have a Harley with pedals I'll take this one.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Electraglide said:


> the Langley Hotel then maybe The Fort. By then I'd be phoning my niece to send one of the kids across the river on the ferry and save my ass. I'd have to rent the bike down there tho.


They'd need a time machine.  Sad to say the Albion Ferry last sailed July 31/2009 and is no more.  New bridge there now. As kids we used to take our bikes across to Maple Ridge on the ferry most weekends.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

jb welder said:


> They'd need a time machine.  Sad to say the Albion Ferry last sailed July 31/2009 and is no more.  New bridge there now. As kids we used to take our bikes across to Maple Ridge on the ferry most weekends.


Used to take the ferry when going from the Woods or the 'boo to the Langley hotel then to the Demo Derbys in Cloverdale. I remember when the battery shop there had a battery powered truck, built by the kids at either SFU or UBC.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

You could fit in a Ford CMax. Not quite the same thing.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> You could fit in a Ford CMax. Not quite the same thing.


Why? Actually when the wife was looking for a new car we tried one of those. It felt cramped for me in the drivers seat, the back seats were out and tho there was some room in the front passenger seat, getting in and out of the door was a bitch....especially with the seat all the way back to give me leg room.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Electraglide said:


> Why? Actually when the wife was looking for a new car we tried one of those. It felt cramped for me in the drivers seat, the back seats were out and tho there was some room in the front passenger seat, getting in and out of the door was a bitch....especially with the seat all the way back to give me leg room.


You must be a really big guy. My friend who tests cars has one this week and he is over six feet tall and says he has no problem. The car is quite tall as well giving lots of height inside. However, everyone is different and just height alone is not the only factor. The battery in the cargo area I found took up a lot of space.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> You must be a really big guy. My friend who tests cars has one this week and he is over six feet tall and says he has no problem. The car is quite tall as well giving lots of height inside. However, everyone is different and just height alone is not the only factor. The battery in the cargo area I found took up a lot of space.


I'm 6'3".......depending on the time of day....and close to 250 lbs. I had to contort myself to get in and out of the front doors. With the passenger seat back far enough so I could sit in it meant that there was no room for someone behind. Once in there is a bit of head and leg room for me but like most cars today I kept on banging my head while getting out and if I didn't watch it my feet got stuck between the seat and the door. I'll keep my gas powered trucks and my Harleys. If memory serves me well tho there was more room in the Ford than in the Tesla.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Everyone has different needs and priorities in a vehicle.

I'm still able to get in and out of a sports car without any discomfort and once I'm in, the ergonomics and performance make any perceved loss of convenience pretty much inconsequential.

Electric is fine but I can afford a performance oriented gas powered car.

Diesel is off my radar. I've never driven a diesel I liked. They're great for tractors and trucks.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

I have a couple of friends with them. I'm 5'11", no jbealsmusic issues at all seeing out of it. Price is certainly a downside - they are American-made, which means a 30% premium in Canada.

Re: subsidies, the Ontario government recently slashed its subsidy from about $8,500 to about $3,000 in a way that clearly targeted "rich" Tesla owners... IIRC no other electric car was affected by the subsidy change.

Re: range, my friends report that the reduction is about 10% in cold weather, but we haven't had a very cold winter this year. The range reduction is from colder batteries, but also from the heater (which doesn't have a hot engine to use for heat). Also re: range, when the first of my friends got one I said, "Yeah, but I can't drive to Kentucky in it." He said, "Sure you can," and showed me how on the car's huge touch-screen display. The vehicle is always aware of its location, remaining battery life/range, and the locations of charging stations, and provides alerts and guidance to get it charged. A fifteen-minute charge at the many "superstations" deliberately placed around North America to maximize range capability restores the vehicle to 80% of its range, so you stop for a coffee every few hundred kilometers as you might do anyway. Many more stations will re-charge in hours.

The base model has more than enough acceleration to thoroughly impress, far faster than anything most of us drive. The souped-up model is among the five or so fastest cars on the planet, faster than most Ferrarris, Lamborghinis, etc.

Pretty impressive vehicle! Both friends sound like Tesla salespersons (they're not) which I'm told is typical of Tesla owners. Both are delighted with it. A bit rich for me, but if it wasn't I'd probably get one. My wife wants one too!


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

Electraglide said:


> Not too sure what happened when I was going to post this, but, if I'm going to have a Harley with pedals I'll take this one.


Or how 'bout this one? Harley believes that this is the first Harley made. Restored, of course, and in their museum in Milwaukee WI.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Tesla model 3 gets unveiled soon.

I want to take an S for a spin.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

boyscout said:


> I have a couple of friends with them. I'm 5'11", no jbealsmusic issues at all seeing out of it. Price is certainly a downside - they are American-made, which means a 30% premium in Canada.
> 
> Re: subsidies, the Ontario government recently slashed its subsidy from about $8,500 to about $3,000 in a way that clearly targeted "rich" Tesla owners... IIRC no other electric car was affected by the subsidy change.
> 
> ...


I just did a quick check and the superstations are kinda limited in the prairies and any place off of the trans Canada. Actually there's a lot of areas where there isn't any charging stations.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

Tesla acceleration videos:

(explicit language, but I like this one for the clip with the kids around 2:40)


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

Milkman said:


> <snip> Diesel is off my radar. I've never driven a diesel I liked. They're great for tractors and trucks.


Try a BMW X5 35D, might change your mind.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

boyscout said:


> Try a BMW X5 35D, might change your mind.



Not a chance. Only 255 hp in a vehicle weighing almost 5000 lbs.

SUVs and crossovers are not my cup of tea. Putting a diesel in one is a perfect way to keep me away.

I don't like the sound, power, and smell of diesels. Without a turbo they're pretty gutless in my opinion.

I'll stick with naturally aspirated gas engines until such time as a sporty electric car becomes available at a price I can afford.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

Milkman said:


> Not a chance. SUVs and crossovers are not my cup of tea. Putting a diesel in one is a perfect way to keep me away. I don't like the sound, power, and smell of diesels. Without a turbo they're pretty gutless in my opinion. <snip>


Repeat, drive a BMW X5 35D. The early-year models sound like a diesel but later years much less so, they have quick-response power that will almost certainly surprise you, their exhaust doesn't smell at all like diesel (smells like water with a hint of vinegar) and their handling might even change your mind about SUVs.

Oh, and they are turbo-charged, _twin_-turbo-charged up through 2013.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2014-bmw-x5-xdrive35d-diesel-test-review

"_I don't care about the facts, in my heart i know that i am right._"

However I guess we're straying off topic.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

That would be like telling a truck lover to try out a smart car.

It's just completely NOT the kind of vehicle I prefer.

I don't like turbo (supercharger maybe) and As I mentioned SUVs are a non starter for me.

I want as low a center of gravity and as high a power to weight ratio as I can get. I also strongly prefer RWD over FWD, AWD or 4WD.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Anyone put money down for a Model 3? Hope it goes better than Fryette's GPDI kickstarter campaign..........


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

The Model 3 is reputed to accommodate 6'3" drivers and 6' passengers in the back.


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

Milkman said:


> Not a chance. Only 255 hp in a vehicle weighing almost 5000 lbs.
> 
> SUVs and crossovers are not my cup of tea. Putting a diesel in one is a perfect way to keep me away.
> 
> ...


You're out of touch my friend. I don't think you'll find a diesel in a non-commercial vehicle that doesn't have a turbo. They don't stink and they're not noisy. As well you'll find naturally aspirated motors are very thin on the ground in new vehicles. Even Porsche went mostly all turbo this year and Ferrari is on it's way there as well. AWD?-no issues with that either, especially in this country.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

WCGill said:


> You're out of touch my friend. I don't think you'll find a diesel in a non-commercial vehicle that doesn't have a turbo. They don't stink and they're not noisy. As well you'll find naturally aspirated motors are very thin on the ground in new vehicles. Even Porsche went mostly all turbo this year and Ferrari is on it's way there as well. AWD?-no issues with that either, especially in this country.


Out of touch? LOL, I've heard that before and it was silly then too.

Yes, I know most diesels now have turbos, and in fact some auto makers are moving to smaller engines in their gas cars and adding turbos.

For example, the next Accord will not be offered with a V6. Only 2.0 turbo.

I know the trends. I'm talking about my personal tastes.

Drive behind a diesel (try a VW). I have to put my AC on recirculate to avoid the fumes. We must be experiencing different diesels.

AWD is not the same for every make either. I like Audi's AWD, but Honda? Meh.

I have no problem with the scarcity of naturally aspirated gas cars with decent power and RWD.

There are plenty of used cars available.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2016)

High/Deaf said:


> Anyone put money down for a Model 3? Hope it goes better than Fryette's GPDI kickstarter campaign..........


I did. It's refundable if I don't buy when my turn comes up.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> I also strongly prefer RWD over FWD, AWD or 4WD.


I am not a lover of AWD or 4WD either but I will usually take a FWD over a RWD, especially in the winter.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2016)

Context:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/715934657720639488
That's...amazing.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> I am not a lover of AWD or 4WD either but I will usually take a FWD over a RWD, especially in the winter.


Yes, in the winter I use FWD or AWD.

FWD is good in snow.

It SUCKS for performance when the weather is nice however.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

iaresee said:


> Context:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/715934657720639488
> That's...amazing.


Saw that, too. They're targeting 2017 for delivery. You think that's realistic???

Also, important to point out that the deposits are a fraction of that. It's not like Tesla's bank account just exploded. But, I agree, the sentiment is there that if a quality EV is available at a competitive price, people will buy it.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

The Model 3 is awesome. I might have to grab one, especially if it has AWD. Once that car comes out, the era of the gas car will be over. I love driving an electric car. Its performance is just amazing. Its the misconceptions that need to be overcome by the gas car drivers. Sometimes I do miss the cool roar of an Audi V10 but there's just something cool about having a car sound like a shuttle from Star Trek. Its the future and you cant fight the future. Besides in this country there is no where to drive legally at speeds where you can actually appreciate what a car can actually do. Rain drops hitting your windshield at over 250kph is something really cool to see. Maybe once we have self driving cars, those speeds might become legal here. Until then having a car with a high top end is only useful when you have access to 5,000km of Autobahn, or if you're really lucky, Erha-Lessien. Thats whats cool about electric. You can hit the speed limit really quickly, and never really have to worry about going over by too much. That is, until they start putting something like a transmissions in them rather than just a reduction gear. I havent bought gas since 2014, and thats really fucking cool.......


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I agree. We're watching the beginnings of the electric car business - at least until they find a way of charging a road tax on your car's charging station.

I still have range anxiety. For 95% of what I do, it would work fine. But long trips through nothingness (which we have some of in BC)? Rent a car? That sucks.

Electrics are great for our type of stop and go driving. Instantaneous massive torque. Years ago, I watched the Toyota LMP900 cars leave the pits with only electric power (rules about wheelspin ande such) - once it hit 60MPH or so, the diesel engine kicked in. Quick and silent. Eerie. But a good electric car won't leave anyone with sporting aspirations wanting.

FWD? AWD? RWD? All software adjustable. How cool is that?


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

For the nerds like me who enjoy this kind of stuff.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2016)

hollowbody said:


> Saw that, too. They're targeting 2017 for delivery. You think that's realistic???


I'm cautiously optimistic at this point. I know I missed getting in in time to get the $7.5k state rebate here in California. Unless a whole bunch of the people in line in front of me don't buy one I'm going to be buying car number >200,000 from Tesla (the $7.5k rebate in CA stops after a manufacturer has produced >200,000 EVs).


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> I agree. We're watching the beginnings of the electric car business - at least until they find a way of charging a road tax on your car's charging station.
> 
> I still have range anxiety. For 95% of what I do, it would work fine. But long trips through nothingness (which we have some of in BC)? Rent a car? That sucks.
> 
> ...


When it breaks down in Dawson Creek do you have it towed to Van or Calgary? Calgary I guess....you pay less for towing. To me it's a very expensive, limited use, big city car. That can take twice as long to get anywhere. From the looks of it you really have to plan your trip to a lot of places and there's a lot of places you can't get to.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2016)

Electraglide said:


> When it breaks down in Dawson Creek do you have it towed to Van or Calgary? Calgary I guess....you pay less for towing. To me it's a very expensive, limited use, big city car. That can take twice as long to get anywhere. From the looks of it you really have to plan your trip to a lot of places and there's a lot of places you can't get to.


Where the majority of people live on the continent it's as viable as a gas car. No more planning than with a gas car required to move around the USA in a Tesla.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Electraglide said:


> When it breaks down in Dawson Creek do you have it towed to Van or Calgary? Calgary I guess....you pay less for towing. To me it's a very expensive, limited use, big city car. That can take twice as long to get anywhere. From the looks of it you really have to plan your trip to a lot of places and there's a lot of places you can't get to.


But once the charging stations pick up steam, that will change. You know, like gas stations.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

iaresee said:


> Where the majority of people live on the continent it's as viable as a gas car. No more planning than with a gas car required to move around the USA in a Tesla.


Ummmm, we're in Canada.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2016)

Electraglide said:


> Ummmm, we're in Canada.


I'm not. And the markets that truly make Tesla money aren't located anywhere near Dawson Creek, that's for sure.

Vancouver, Calgary, the Golden Horeshoe -- those areas are well covered by chargers and you can move around them with an electric as you would a gas car. The empty spaces between? Meh. Not a priority, but they'll eventually get filled. There just isn't enough wealth and population there to make it a priority.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

iaresee said:


> I'm not. And the markets that truly make Tesla money aren't located anywhere near Dawson Creek, that's for sure.
> 
> Vancouver, Calgary, the Golden Horeshoe -- those areas are well covered by chargers and you can move around them with an electric as you would a gas car. The empty spaces between? Meh. Not a priority, but they'll eventually get filled. There just isn't enough wealth and population there to make it a priority.


I know you're way south of the 49th. I disagree with you about the money/wealth/population thing. As far as the market goes, if you have the money and live in Dawson Creek or anywhere else then that's where the market is. According to plug share Calgary doesn't seem to have any hi-power charging stations and only 42 public charging stations. Not too sure if Van is much better. If what you say about the market etc, not being anywhere near Dawson Creek etc. then I guess this just makes these cars a rich americans toy.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2016)

Electraglide said:


> I know you're way south of the 49th. I disagree with you about the money/wealth/population thing. As far as the market goes, if you have the money and live in Dawson Creek or anywhere else then that's where the market is. According to plug share Calgary doesn't seem to have any hi-power charging stations and only 42 public charging stations. Not too sure if Van is much better. If what you say about the market etc, not being anywhere near Dawson Creek etc. then I guess this just makes these cars a rich americans toy.


I don't even think it's s wealth thing. It's population density. They work so much better when everything and everyone is closer together.

I'm certain time will make them viable for remote owners but that's not the market right now.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

iaresee said:


> I don't even think it's s wealth thing. It's population density. They work so much better when everything and everyone is closer together.
> 
> I'm certain time will make them viable for remote owners but that's not the market right now.


I thought that's what the new Model 3 Tesla was aimed at....something affordable for the common people. I figure that outside of the main areas it's going to take quite a while to get them usable....ie charging stations. Someone's got to pay for them and I don't think it's going to be any of the EV makers and I can't see the gov't putting them in for free. Because of the limited distance you can go on a charge there's going to have to be a lot of charging stations around. No matter how you slice it any fully electric vehicle is going to be a high density, short distance, slow, warm weather mode of transportation. I say slow meaning that going a distance further than what you can do on a charge will take you quite a while. No fill up and go kind of thing. You could even be stuck overnight in some places. According to google there's not a lot of charging stations between say Bakersfield and Vegas and if I recall correctly you'd need at least 1.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2016)

Electraglide said:


> I thought that's what the new Model 3 Tesla was aimed at....something affordable for the common people. I figure that outside of the main areas it's going to take quite a while to get them usable....ie charging stations. Someone's got to pay for them and I don't think it's going to be any of the EV makers and I can't see the gov't putting them in for free. Because of the limited distance you can go on a charge there's going to have to be a lot of charging stations around. No matter how you slice it any fully electric vehicle is going to be a high density, short distance, slow, warm weather mode of transportation. I say slow meaning that going a distance further than what you can do on a charge will take you quite a while. No fill up and go kind of thing. You could even be stuck overnight in some places. According to google there's not a lot of charging stations between say Bakersfield and Vegas and if I recall correctly you'd need at least 1.


At the low end the Teslas do 215 miles on a full charge. That's hardly limited, right? I think my minivan gets about 350 miles to a full tank. My A4 does about 300 miles to a full tank (significantly less if I'm enjoying myself driving it).

I find Tesla's range numbers don't require you drafting big rigs and coasting in neutral to match. In other words, they're pretty conservative and it's easy to get their range and not have to drive ultra-conservative.

There aren't a lot of charging stations between Bakersfield and Vegas because there's literally nothing out there.  Tesla has a supercharging station in Barstow. You can comfortably get to Vegas without having to stretch the range. Because the distances between places of major interest in the USA aren't that far apart really it's easier to make it all work here. That's my point about Alberta and the prairie provinces not exactly being the target for these cars right now. Eventually supercharging stations will dot the Trans-Canada but for now it's an urban car in Canada. In the USA though, it's totally a cross-country vehicle.


Also, if you figure it takes 10 minutes to put gas in a car, it's only an extra 10 minutes to charge a Model S. It's also free to charge at a Tesla station and in the Bay Area it's about $2 to full at a non-Tesla station. I'll happily trade 10 minutes of my time to save $45. Wouldn't you?

Here's a fun experiment: let's drive from San Francisco to New York! The ultimately, cross-country trip in America.

Here's the best gas car route: https://goo.gl/maps/2gLTp7Xg9WQ2 -- that says 2906 miles. So if we figure we get 300 miles of range in our A4 that means about 10 stops for gas at 100 minutes. So we're at ~44.5 hours for the journey with gas stops factored in and about $350 in gas (it's considerably cheaper in the middle of the country).

Can we do the same trip in a Tesla Model S? This website plots the trip and I selected a route that will get us there using only Tesla SuperCharger stations: https://evtripplanner.com/planner/2-6/?id=se8l -- that's a longer trip for sure at 3136 miles but it only adds ~4 hours to the journey BUT total journey time with charging is at ~68 hours according to that site.

That delta is actually quite a bit more than I was expecting!

So really long distance trips are still more time-efficient in the gas car, but for short and medium range stuff they're really on par now (at least in the USA where superchargers are approaching abundant).


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Yes, in the winter I use FWD or AWD.
> 
> FWD is good in snow.
> 
> It SUCKS for performance when the weather is nice however.


Of course, RWD can be more fun when it is slippery. Doing donuts is much easier.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Yeah we used to learn to steer into the skid by doing doughnuts in parking lots on Sundaysin winter.

RWD is fine, but the AWD Honda Accord Crosstour I drove this winter pr the FWD Altima I also used on some trips were both more than up to the task with the snow we had.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

iaresee said:


> At the low end the Teslas do 215 miles on a full charge. That's hardly limited, right? I think my minivan gets about 350 miles to a full tank. My A4 does about 300 miles to a full tank (significantly less if I'm enjoying myself driving it).
> 
> I find Tesla's range numbers don't require you drafting big rigs and coasting in neutral to match. In other words, they're pretty conservative and it's easy to get their range and not have to drive ultra-conservative.
> 
> ...


Frisco to Chester Vt. on I 40 on a hardtail Harley 74. About a third of that was on Rt. 66 with a few off the main road runs, That included a fast trip to the Grand Canyon and lots of other places. Time elapsed about 2 weeks with gas stations all over the place. You are stuck to a specific route especially if you just run superstation to superstation that hits all the lovely big places. If you miscalculate just a little bit you could be stuck. 
As far as a market, supposedly some 220,000+ model3 are ordered.....let's see if Tesla can fill the bill. 
As far as gas milage goes, the wife's charger gets a lot better gas milage than your vehicles and her bike gets better than the car. 
I know what it's like from Bakersfield to Vegas. Aside from Barstow there's just a bunch of little interesting towns, nice places. 
I'll stick to a gas powered vehicle and off the main and mostly boring track....and take my own sweet time about it.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2016)

Electraglide said:


> You are stuck to a specific route especially if you just run superstation to superstation that hits all the lovely big places.


I can't argue that superchargers limit your cross country route but...


> If you miscalculate just a little bit you could be stuck.


Wellllll...we do have electricity all over the place in North America.  You're just charging slower, that's all. It's actually easier to get electricity than gas wherever you go on the continent. There's always an outlet closer than a gas station.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

iaresee said:


> I can't argue that superchargers limit your cross country route but...
> 
> Wellllll...we do have electricity all over the place in North America.  You're just charging slower, that's all. It's actually easier to get electricity than gas wherever you go on the continent. There's always an outlet closer than a gas station.


Ummmm, unless things have changed there you're wrong about the electricity being available. There's a lot of places where there's no close power. And with an electric car you have to get the car to the outlet. Around here if I phone the auto association they'll bring me gas. I guess with an electric car you could always carry a long, heavy duty extension cord. A lot of places the outlet could be a couple of hundred feet away from where your car died but to get the car to it could mean pushing said car a mile or more or having it towed to the nearest commercial plug. I would hate to have the car towed to a plug on a house and find out no one is home or have the owner say no.


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## Guest (Apr 3, 2016)

and toss in a blackout.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

No problems with orders for this car...

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35953817


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2016)

Electraglide said:


> Ummmm, unless things have changed there you're wrong about the electricity being available. There's a lot of places where there's no close power. And with an electric car you have to get the car to the outlet.














I kid.

But really, you are never _further_ from an electrical outlet than you are from gas. And likely always closer because places with electricity outnumber gas stations, right?



> Around here if I phone the auto association they'll bring me gas. I guess with an electric car you could always carry a long, heavy duty extension cord.


Or a generator? I know Tesla will tow you to a charging station if this happens. But you have me wondering what other contingencies there are for electrics on the roadside now. Did some quick digging and it looks like AAA has fast charging capabilities on some of their emergency response trucks now a service they announced in 2011 apparently! Cool!



> I would hate to have the car towed to a plug on a house and find out no one is home or have the owner say no.


I think if you end up going the tow route you'd get it towed to a commercial charging station. Pay, non-Tesla owned stations, are really pretty common now thanks to US gov't incentives. They are usually found next to the handicap spots in every major shopping mall lot now.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

iaresee said:


> I kid.
> 
> But really, you are never _further_ from an electrical outlet than you are from gas. And likely always closer because places with electricity outnumber gas stations, right?
> 
> ...


I guess you could always carry a generator with you but after reading a few things I keep on seeing things like "Tesla trained tow truck drivers". Do they have to be towed a special way? I know some of the AMA and BCAA trucks carry small generators but those are just the regular kind.


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2016)

Electraglide said:


> I guess you could always carry a generator with you but after reading a few things I keep on seeing things like "Tesla trained tow truck drivers". Do they have to be towed a special way? I know some of the AMA and BCAA trucks carry small generators but those are just the regular kind.


I don't know if there are special towing considerations. Wouldn't surprise me if there were. Possibly flatbed only due to the battery pack and low ground clearance?


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

iaresee said:


> I don't know if there are special towing considerations. Wouldn't surprise me if there were. Possibly flatbed only due to the battery pack and low ground clearance?


Seems it could be quite an issue.
https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/downloads/roadside_assistance_extract.pdf


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2016)

Electraglide said:


> Seems it could be quite an issue.
> https://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/downloads/roadside_assistance_extract.pdf


Oh. Of course! Because the tires are directly connected to the electric motors, towing with the wheels connected to the ground would run the motors.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

iaresee said:


> Oh. Of course! Because the tires are directly connected to the electric motors, towing with the wheels connected to the ground would run the motors.


I suppose that when there isn't enough power to run the car you could still turn off what you need to and shift the car into neutral and disconnect the "emergency brake" among other things by hooking up a battery to an emergency power point. Seems like you could be sitting for a while before a trained deck truck shows up. These are getting to be more and more a big city town car.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

iaresee said:


> Oh. Of course! Because the tires are directly connected to the electric motors, towing with the wheels connected to the ground would run the motors.


These are early days, they are probably erring on the side of caution. But if the wheels were spinning (and assuming no major problems), you would be charging the batteries while you were being towed. You'd only need to get towed 1/2 way home. 

Here's another idea that hasn't been given much coverage - yet. I'm still a bigger fan of hybrids and if you have a plug-in hybrid connected to your house to charge, it isn't much of an effort to set up the reverse. In a power outage, you have a simple generator that will keep your household fully energized while you wait for the grid to get energized again. You could even sell power back to the grid, but I doubt it would make financial sense (gas being what it costs). 

And I believe these free charging stations are an introductory, 'limited time' offer. Once the cars are common, they won't need the bait and charging will cost. No one knows how much - will they start charging road tax? Does a government ever miss a chance to charge a tax?


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2016)

Electraglide said:


> I suppose that when there isn't enough power to run the car you could still turn off what you need to and shift the car into neutral and disconnect the "emergency brake" among other things by hooking up a battery to an emergency power point. Seems like you could be sitting for a while before a trained deck truck shows up. These are getting to be more and more a big city town car.


I'm not sure they have a neutral. The motors are always connected directly to the wheels. I know they had to add a "creep" mode because people weren't used to taking their foot of the brake and having the car not start to move forward right away. You had to push the accelerator to get it to go because otherwise the motors aren't trying to spin the wheels; they're completely stopped.



High/Deaf said:


> These are early days, they are probably erring on the side of caution. But if the wheels were spinning (and assuming no major problems), you would be charging the batteries while you were being towed. You'd only need to get towed 1/2 way home.


LOL.



> Here's another idea that hasn't been given much coverage - yet. I'm still a bigger fan of hybrids and if you have a plug-in hybrid connected to your house to charge, it isn't much of an effort to set up the reverse. In a power outage, you have a simple generator that will keep your household fully energized while you wait for the grid to get energized again. You could even sell power back to the grid, but I doubt it would make financial sense (gas being what it costs).


A more and more common scenario here in CA is solar panels on the roof connected to something like a Tesla Powerall which stores charge during the day when the sun is shining and you're not home and then trickles it out to your car and your house and back in to the grid at night. Neighbor had one installed and he figures he'll break even on the installation cost of the panels and battery in about 3.5 years with all the money saved on electricity and gas.



> And I believe these free charging stations are an introductory, 'limited time' offer. Once the cars are common, they won't need the bait and charging will cost. No one knows how much - will they start charging road tax? Does a government ever miss a chance to charge a tax?


The Tesla stations are free for all Tesla owners. Well, free, in so much as the cost of using them is baked in the sale price of the car. For the non-free stations, here, it's about $2 to charge your car.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

276,000 orders so far.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

Electraglide said:


> I know you're way south of the 49th. I disagree with you about the money/wealth/population thing. As far as the market goes, if you have the money and live in Dawson Creek or anywhere else then that's where the market is. According to plug share Calgary doesn't seem to have any hi-power charging stations and only 42 public charging stations. Not too sure if Van is much better. If what you say about the market etc, not being anywhere near Dawson Creek etc. then I guess this just makes these cars a rich americans toy.


Far be it from me (a guy located in the _real_ center of the universe! ) to tell you that you sound like you think you're in the center of the universe but you're not. There are a helluva lot of charging stations in southern Ontario, and it's perhaps not surprising that in Canada's oil country there are fewer of them. But they can catch up pretty quickly... sprouting like weeds here.

The frenzy to buy Tesla's latest (a friend got up at 4:00am to be among the first to order TWO of them!) is another indication that the electric car is picking up... er... steam. It may indeed be years before charging stations are nearly as ubiquitous as gas stations, but it's looking like that's going to come. It probably won't be as long as you think before the trip to Dawson Creek in your EV is a no-brainer.

In your area, it has probably already started with evangelicals like friends of mine. Some of them were driving EVs before it became dead-easy to do so but were so happy to have the vehicles (Teslas and a few other lesser EVs) that they were willing to put up with planning trips more carefully. Several years later it's already much easier. The two Tesla owners and some of the others charge at work thanks to companies which want to project a 'green' image, so they're driving for free and think they're pretty smart. They may be! 

EVs have become very easy to spot here these days; more where you are seems like a certainty.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

High/Deaf has made some great points about electric motors being generators, and vice versa. Just like mics/speakers. I'm actually surprised Tesla has not incorporated tow-charging into the design. There must be some snag I'm not aware of, and it probably has to do with explosions .

I often think of all the people running their electric powered treadmills and think WTF? You could be charging batteries to run the TV you're watching while you're on the treadmill! So I thought I could get rich starting up fitness clubs running generators instead of using power. Well, the Chinese have beat me to it.


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

Energy isn't free and as a cyclist I know that I can generate 750 watts on a bike, for about 3 seconds. This guy, well, you watch.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I like the idea of the fully electric car being as easy to use and get around long distance in as a gas powered car. I like the idea of actually helping the planet that we so glutinously destroy. The problem is that so many people make their livelihood from gasoline and it's so entrenched that far more damage will be done before society really comes around.

I'd love to have solar panels on just about everything that can sustain it.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

High/Deaf said:


> <snip> Here's another idea that hasn't been given much coverage - yet. I'm still a bigger fan of hybrids and if you have a plug-in hybrid connected to your house to charge, it isn't much of an effort to set up the reverse. In a power outage, you have a simple generator that will keep your household fully energized while you wait for the grid to get energized again. You could even sell power back to the grid, but I doubt it would make financial sense (gas being what it costs).<snip>


Electricity providers around here are talking - somewhat anxiously - about the impact of EVs on their systems and pricing plans and considering various creative possibilities. One proposal that's been floated is exactly what you've described: customers would have a system into which they'd plug in their car in the evening and for a while during evening loads the utility would buy power from the customer's car. Then later at night, when demand is lower, the system would recharge the customer's car, ensuring that it was charged for the next day's use. Customers might have options to decide how much of their battery's capacity they'd sell, and how close to topped-up it would have to be the following day. (The proposal as I heard it, second hand, did not account for a reduction in the lifetime of the battery, which only has so many charge/discharge cycles in it.)

Utilities are also getting nervous about demand on their suburban infrastructure (transformers, lines, etc.) and on their time-of-use billing systems. While most EVs can charge on a 20-amp system, only the small limited-range ones can completely recharge overnight on 20 amps. The Tesla and the other 300km-range vehicles that are likely to come want a 100-amp system (at some older houses that alone is the upper limit of their capacity!) to fully recharge overnight. If a bunch of EV owners set up to charge their vehicles at 100 amps at midnight when rates fall to their lowest, then not only might the capacity of delivery systems be strained by that demand but the demand might create a new daily peak during a time that utilities typically perform maintenance and have fewer resources dedicated to monitoring and managing the system. Say goodbye to low rates at formerly-off-peak times, and higher electricity costs for everyone including fossil-fuel vehicle owners!

Interesting times!


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## Guest (Apr 4, 2016)

jb welder said:


> High/Deaf has made some great points about electric motors being generators, and vice versa. Just like mics/speakers. I'm actually surprised Tesla has not incorporated tow-charging into the design. There must be some snag I'm not aware of, and it probably has to do with explosions .


They do regenerative breaking so yea, there's something else here that would make towing it dangerous beyond charging. Really, it could be the ground clearance. The S sits low to the ground.



> I often think of all the people running their electric powered treadmills and think WTF? You could be charging batteries to run the TV you're watching while you're on the treadmill! So I thought I could get rich starting up fitness clubs running generators instead of using power. Well, the Chinese have beat me to it.


Man, if I could harness my kid's kinetic energy I'd have all my electricity for free!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

iaresee said:


> Man, if I could harness my kid's kinetic energy I'd have all my electricity for free!


Ian, we just found your new signature!


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

iaresee said:


> Man, if I could harness my kid's *kinetic* energy I'd have all my electricity for free!


If he (she?) has any additional *potential* energy...please put me down for a bottle.....per day! ..LOL


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

boyscout said:


> Far be it from me (a guy located in the _real_ center of the universe! ) to tell you that you sound like you think you're in the center of the universe but you're not. There are a helluva lot of charging stations in southern Ontario, and it's perhaps not surprising that in Canada's oil country there are fewer of them. But they can catch up pretty quickly... sprouting like weeds here.
> 
> The frenzy to buy Tesla's latest (a friend got up at 4:00am to be among the first to order TWO of them!) is another indication that the electric car is picking up... er... steam. It may indeed be years before charging stations are nearly as ubiquitous as gas stations, but it's looking like that's going to come. It probably won't be as long as you think before the trip to Dawson Creek in your EV is a no-brainer.
> 
> ...


Nah, Red Deer is about the center of Alberta. The center of the universe is about 10 miles over the mountain from where my brother lives in B.C.. Steam now is another option. When the come up with a half ton truck that will do 600 or so miles of mountain roads to a charge or be able to get from say here to Vancouver with just one stop then I'll think about getting one.....maybe.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

For a day to day driver / general purpose / point A to point B sort of car I think the infrastructure still has a long way to go.

For a sports car, the only thing holding me back is price.

I can get a lot of performance in a gas car for a lot less coin.

I have no aversion to electric. It just seems that the most common motivation or design paradigm when it comes to electric cars is economy and / or environment.

I want something with balls, even if they're electric balls.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2016)

Milkman said:


> I can get a lot of performance in a gas car for a lot less coin.


There are not a lot of cars that'll do 0-60 in under 3 seconds. There are fewer still that do it for "a lot less coin" than a Tesla. Really, only two. And they're both still >$70k cars, just not $100k+ cars. See: http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/20-production-cars-that-hit-0-60-the-quickest.html/?a=viewall



> I want something with balls, even if they're electric balls.


0-60 times for all variants of the Model S put it squarely in the "balls" category of driving experiences. The slowest time there is 5.2 seconds which is still plenty fast: http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/tesla-0-60-mph-times/


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Oh I'


iaresee said:


> There are not a lot of cars that'll do 0-60 in under 3 seconds. There are fewer still that do it for "a lot less coin" than a Tesla. Really, only two. And they're both still >$70k cars, just not $100k+ cars. See: http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/20-production-cars-that-hit-0-60-the-quickest.html/?a=viewall
> 
> 
> 0-60 times for all variants of the Model S put it squarely in the "balls" category of driving experiences. The slowest time there is 5.2 seconds which is still plenty fast: http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/tesla-0-60-mph-times/


Oh, I'm definitely a fan of Tesla.

No, there are not many cars that can match Tesla's performance, but what is there below the Tesla level.....Prius?

I paid $19,000 for my G37, used with around 40,000 miles on it, never winter driven. 240 hp, RWD, HPS.

What could I get that would come anywhere near that level of performance in an electric car?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

WCGill said:


> Energy isn't free and as a cyclist I know that I can generate 750 watts on a bike, for about 3 seconds. This guy, well, you watch.


I've said this before: A TDF cyclist is barely capable of producing 500 watts sustained (think climbing L'Alpe d'Huez). In two hours, they've generated 1 kw.hr of energy (.5kw X 2 hours). We buy that quantity of energy for less than 10c. Would you climb a mountain for two hours just for the money? I wouldn't.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> I've said this before: A TDF cyclist is barely capable of producing 500 watts sustained (think climbing L'Alpe d'Huez). In two hours, they've generated 1 kw.hr of energy (.5kw X 2 hours). We buy that quantity of energy for less than 10c. Would you climb a mountain for two hours just for the money? I wouldn't.


Completely agree. The point I was trying to raise earlier was about exercise machines that plug in the wall and _use_ power, like treadmills. Makes a lot more sense to generate whatever minuscule amount of power to trickle charge a battery when the goal is to be exercising anyway.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2016)

Milkman said:


> Oh I'
> 
> 
> Oh, I'm definitely a fan of Tesla.
> ...


BMW i3. Looks silly but drives like a Bimmer. Audi A3e too. Toyota used to make an all-electric RAV4 that was _nuts_. If you can find one of those used it's got tons of torque.



> I paid $19,000 for my G37, used with around 40,000 miles on it, never winter driven. 240 hp, RWD, HPS.
> 
> What could I get that would come anywhere near that level of performance in an electric car?


No clue. I'm not up on the used EV market. But for the same price as a new G37 you can get plenty of EV that'll go just as fast.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

iaresee said:


> BMW i3. Looks silly but drives like a Bimmer. Audi A3e too. Toyota used to make an all-electric RAV4 that was _nuts_. If you can find one of those used it's got tons of torque.
> 
> 
> No clue. I'm not up on the used EV market. But for the same price as a new G37 you can get plenty of EV that'll go just as fast.


Maybe, but that's my point. When there are enough E cars out there for long enough, the prices will come down and the variety will increase.

Right now, it's not practical for me to go electric.

Maybe in a few years.

I'll take a peppy electric car over a diesel any day of the week.

T he BMW i3 is a little SUV, not a car. So is the Toyota Rav 4.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

boyscout said:


> Electricity providers around here are talking - somewhat anxiously - about the impact of EVs on their systems and pricing plans and considering various creative possibilities. One proposal that's been floated is exactly what you've described: customers would have a system into which they'd plug in their car in the evening and for a while during evening loads the utility would buy power from the customer's car. Then later at night, when demand is lower, the system would recharge the customer's car, ensuring that it was charged for the next day's use. Customers might have options to decide how much of their battery's capacity they'd sell, and how close to topped-up it would have to be the following day. (The proposal as I heard it, second hand, did not account for a reduction in the lifetime of the battery, which only has so many charge/discharge cycles in it.)
> 
> Utilities are also getting nervous about demand on their suburban infrastructure (transformers, lines, etc.) and on their time-of-use billing systems. While most EVs can charge on a 20-amp system, only the small limited-range ones can completely recharge overnight on 20 amps. The Tesla and the other 300km-range vehicles that are likely to come want a 100-amp system (at some older houses that alone is the upper limit of their capacity!) to fully recharge overnight. If a bunch of EV owners set up to charge their vehicles at 100 amps at midnight when rates fall to their lowest, then not only might the capacity of delivery systems be strained by that demand but the demand might create a new daily peak during a time that utilities typically perform maintenance and have fewer resources dedicated to monitoring and managing the system. Say goodbye to low rates at formerly-off-peak times, and higher electricity costs for everyone including fossil-fuel vehicle owners!
> 
> Interesting times!


and yet we keep hearing that around here, we over-produce electricity and have to PAY americans to take it off our hands.
As someone with shares in Tesla, I am very excited by what seems to be happening in that company


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

iaresee said:


> There are not a lot of cars that'll do 0-60 in under 3 seconds. There are fewer still that do it for "a lot less coin" than a Tesla. Really, only two. And they're both still >$70k cars, just not $100k+ cars. See: http://www.cheatsheet.com/automobiles/20-production-cars-that-hit-0-60-the-quickest.html/?a=viewall
> 
> 
> 0-60 times for all variants of the Model S put it squarely in the "balls" category of driving experiences. The slowest time there is 5.2 seconds which is still plenty fast: http://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/tesla-0-60-mph-times/


for sure...that's the beauty of Tesla....while other alt fuel vehicles have tended to be sluggish, clumsy and unsexy, the Tesla is none of those things. its powerful and elegant and stylish. Im surprised that as a car afficionado Milkman cant see how dated it makes the G37 look in comparison.

That's a great list above....makes me wonder what the physical limit to 0-60 might be someday? are sub 2 sec times possible? although the legal limit will likely come up sooner.

Im likely in the minority, but I cant get used to the looks of the new corvette. I know its the darling of the media, and its stats are impressive, but its an eyeful of ugly to me. Like a rich kid got hold of a lot of bolt on body kit stuff, a sawzall and some bondo. Even a 15 yr old Ferrari Modena puts it to shame esthetically.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> I thought that's what the new Model 3 Tesla was aimed at....something affordable for the common people. I figure that outside of the main areas it's going to take quite a while to get them usable....ie charging stations. Someone's got to pay for them and I don't think it's going to be any of the EV makers and I can't see the gov't putting them in for free. Because of the limited distance you can go on a charge there's going to have to be a lot of charging stations around. No matter how you slice it any fully electric vehicle is going to be a high density, short distance, slow, warm weather mode of transportation. I say slow meaning that going a distance further than what you can do on a charge will take you quite a while. No fill up and go kind of thing. You could even be stuck overnight in some places. According to google there's not a lot of charging stations between say Bakersfield and Vegas and if I recall correctly you'd need at least 1.


Even if they get "full" charging station coverage, how many outlets will be required to charge everybody up and send them on their way in a reasonable time? I mean, if it takes 3 minutes to top up the gas tank then one pump nozzle can do 20 cars in an hour. if it takes 20 minutes to charge an EV then one station outlet can only do 3 an hour. So ........... does that mean that we need the same number of gas stations as currently exist and they need to have 20 times as many "outlets" at each?

This is all making me feel much like my great-grandfather the blacksmith must have felt in 1900.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2016)

Diablo said:


> for sure...that's the beauty of Tesla....while other alt fuel vehicles have tended to be sluggish, clumsy and unsexy, the Tesla is none of those things. its powerful and elegant and stylish. Im surprised that as a car afficionado Milkman cant see how dated it makes the G37 look in comparison.


Yea, the G37 is a lovely car. But it's not in the same weight class that the Model S is punching in. I don't think Infiniti even makes a sub-4 second 0-60 car. Not that the G37's 5+ second sprint time isn't plenty fast, it's just not supercar fast like the Model S. 



> Im likely in the minority, but I cant get used to the looks of the new corvette. I know its the darling of the media, and its stats are impressive, but its an eyeful of ugly to me. Like a rich kid got hold of a lot of bolt on body kit stuff, a sawzall and some bondo. Even a 15 yr old Ferrari Modena puts it to shame esthetically.


From the _front_ I love the new 'vette, but the arse end of it looks like a Camaro! Once I'm inside one though, I kind of forget because they drive FANTASTIC.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

iaresee said:


> Yea, the G37 is a lovely car. But it's not in the same weight class that the Model S is punching in. I don't think Infiniti even makes a sub-4 second 0-60 car. Not that the G37's 5+ second sprint time isn't plenty fast, it's just not supercar fast like the Model S.


It is a really fun car. I test drove one (G37) in the late 2000's before I got my Audi.
realistically a 4-5 sec car is all the speed you need to feel fast on the street and its still plenty enough to get you in trouble. anything beyond that is for bragging rights and bench racing or I suppose there could be a handful of ppl that actually take it to the track  .


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> Even if they get "full" charging station coverage, how many outlets will be required to charge everybody up and send them on their way in a reasonable time? I mean, if it takes 3 minutes to top up the gas tank then one pump nozzle can do 20 cars in an hour. if it takes 20 minutes to charge an EV then one station outlet can only do 3 an hour. So ........... does that mean that we need the same number of gas stations as currently exist and they need to have 20 times as many "outlets" at each?
> 
> This is all making me feel much like my great-grandfather the blacksmith must have felt in 1900.


In the city, probably like some European places I've seen on tv where each parking meter is a charging station. On the highways probably parking lots for at least 30 cars. Because of the park and charge times these charging stations would be more like truck stops than regular gas stations. 
My one great grandfather was a wheelwright/millwright in the late 1800s. You didn't have to worry about the horse too much.


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## Guest (Apr 8, 2016)

Diablo said:


> It is a really fun car. I test drove one (G37) in the late 2000's before I got my Audi.
> realistically a 4-5 sec car is all the speed you need to feel fast on the street and its still plenty enough to get you in trouble. anything beyond that is for bragging rights and bench racing or I suppose there could be a handful of ppl that actually take it to the track  .


Ludicrous mode in the Model S was uncomfortably fast and nerve wracking when I tried it. Even in the closed course Tesla has here with the salesperson egging me on I knew it was beyond my capabilities and reaction time as a human being if something went wrong in those three seconds. I wouldn't spend the money on it personally because I would just end up wrapping the car around a tree or worse trying to use it. It was also painful it was so fast off the line.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Top Gear proved years ago: You want better fuel economy, get an M3.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

You guys do know that charging times are being reduced every year to the point where it might take seconds in a couple of years. Especially when the zero resistance cathodes come into play with the high output DC chargers.......


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Diablo said:


> It is a really fun car. I test drove one (G37) in the late 2000's before I got my Audi.
> realistically a 4-5 sec car is all the speed you need to feel fast on the street and its still plenty enough to get you in trouble. anything beyond that is for bragging rights and bench racing or I suppose there could be a handful of ppl that actually take it to the track  .


Oh it's nowhere near the super car class, but to tell the truth, I think most f those cars are overkill.

If I put the hammer down with mine, it fishtails and spins right off the mark.

Mine's boosted up to about 350hp. With a car that light and small it's enough for me.

It's just a real blast to drive, particularly on corners.

Putting it another way, it's more than enough to make me giddy and to scare the crap out of the missus.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Well I would certainly like to take the opportunity to boast about my 72' MGB's performance specs:

0 - 60 in 10.4 seconds with a top speed of 106 mph 

No Tesla for sure ............ but it sure feels, sounds, and smells like a real sports car to me and the fun factor on a curvy road on a sunny day is off the charts .


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Diablo said:


> As someone with shares in Tesla, I am very excited by what seems to be happening in that company


Man I wish I could afford to get on that bandwagon! Ah well. I'd also just like to drive half the cars mentioned in this thread haha.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Accept2 said:


> You guys do know that charging times are being reduced every year to the point where it might take seconds in a couple of years. Especially when the zero resistance cathodes come into play with the high output DC chargers.......


That's a maybe and could be 10 years down the road. Right now, depending on how low your batteries are, it seems that most level 2 charging stations, 240V, will take anywhere from 2 to 8 hrs. The high charging sites, which I think will only work for certain cars, are about an hr., https://www.cars.com/articles/2013/11/how-quickly-does-the-tesla-model-s-battery-charge/ Looks like the heavy duty battery adds $10,000 to the price of your tesla. Hope you don't want to get anywhere fast.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> Well I would certainly like to take the opportunity to boast about my 72' MGB's performance specs:
> 
> 0 - 60 in 10.4 seconds with a top speed of 106 mph
> 
> No Tesla for sure ............ but it sure feels, sounds, and smells like a real sports car to me and the fun factor on a curvy road on a sunny day is off the charts .


My '62 MGA was about the same and could go a lot further on a tank of gas than a tesla can go on a charge.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Budda said:


> Man I wish I could afford to get on that bandwagon! Ah well. I'd also just like to drive half the cars mentioned in this thread haha.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

^^^ what's this one about


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

vadsy said:


> ^^^ what's this one about


The Daytona. Just a go fast car that I think is better than a tesla and a hell of a lot more fun to drive.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Oh it's nowhere near the super car class, but to tell the truth, I think most f those cars are overkill.
> 
> If I put the hammer down with mine, it fishtails and spins right off the mark.
> 
> ...


Absolutely.
I had a Mustang Gt in the late 80's. It was considered pretty bad ass back then, and real easy to break loose if you dropped the clutch. It had 225hp. I remember one of my friends dads saying "what do you need all that power for?". Today, even in most family cars, 200hp would be considered anemic.
Amazing how things change.
IMO, the best thing to happen to performance cars is AWD. Power that just leads to fish tailing is wasted IMO. One of the things that makes Vipers so undriveable. And why I love my Audi, and the sports car I had before it, Dodge Stealth Twin turbo. Although that car could spin all 4 wheels too if you were real hard on it.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Electraglide said:


> The Daytona. Just a go fast car that I think is better than a tesla and a hell of a lot more fun to drive.


I've never heard it called that before. Looks like a super bird.
I tend to think of a Ferrari Daytona when I hear that name.

I wouldn't compare that car to a tesla though. I doubt there's any single category it could beat a tesla in, other than nostalgia, and of course, a shade tree mechanics delight.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Diablo said:


> I've never heard it called that before. Looks like a super bird.
> I tend to think of a Ferrari Daytona when I hear that name.
> 
> I wouldn't compare that car to a tesla though. I doubt there's any single category it could beat a tesla in, other than nostalgia, and of course, a shade tree mechanics delight.


If I recall the Superbird was the well modified race version of the Daytona. I can think of quite a few catagories it beats the tesla in but I said "I think it is better and a hell of a lot more fun to drive". For instance, to get more distance and speed out of the tesla you have to install the super batteries....$10,000+. Among other things that increases your charging times even with the super chargers. That's the same as putting a larger gas tank in the Daytona. Which in todays market, would cost about $600 to $700. Leaves a lot of money left over for gas, beer, food and girls. The tesla is faster 0 to 60 and has a higher top end.....so. The Daytona will go further on a tank of gas and on the track would be a hell of a lot faster in and out of the pits among other things. 
You prefer awd with the car going a bit sideways at times when you punch it....I prefer dropping the clutch and having the rear end dance to the point where you're doing donuts. Then cruising for hrs.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

AWD is fantastic in performance cars, Subaru performance is especially fun to drive.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Electraglide said:


> If I recall the Superbird was the well modified race version of the Daytona. I can think of quite a few catagories it beats the tesla in but I said "I think it is better and a hell of a lot more fun to drive". For instance, to get more distance and speed out of the tesla you have to install the super batteries....$10,000+. Among other things that increases your charging times even with the super chargers. *That's the same as putting a larger gas tank in the Daytona. Which in todays market, would cost about $600 to $700. Leaves a lot of money left over for gas, beer, food and girls*. The tesla is faster 0 to 60 and has a higher top end.....so. The Daytona will go further on a tank of gas and on the track would be a hell of a lot faster in and out of the pits among other things.
> You prefer awd with the car going a bit sideways at times when you punch it....I prefer dropping the clutch and having the rear end dance to the point where you're doing donuts. Then cruising for hrs.


if you think going fast is about saving money, then youre really missing the point. drive a Honda. but if youre really committed to it, trade your old Harley for something that makes the same power or more for less money, so you'll have more $$ for gas beer, food and girls, LOL.

The other thing that just about every car in the past 20 yrs has over a 60's hotrod, is reliability. Ive done the Detroit iron with holley carbs thing, would never go back. in fact, on my last hunk of 70's american junk (sold it last fall), I swapped out the orig intake and carb for an EFI system. Best thing to have been done on that SBC. the next best thing was when I swapped out the lame 3 speed TH350 auto trans for a 4 speed (which is still lame by todays standards, but it was an easier swap). interesting that modern cars have more gears than the old ones. wonder if that helps performance ? 
Modern cars burn clean and start reliably in any weather, and can go 100k kms without any service. That's a lot more fun to me than fussing with carb floats and jetting on a garage queen that you can only drive around here on weekends 6mths of the year .
I actually haven't found my awd cars to go sideways at all. not the way the rear ends would swing out on the old RWD's. you've prob never owned an AWD, so the argument is pointless, but trust me, AWD doesn't detract at all from the cruising experience.

I think you and I are just oil and water, man.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

This is starting to remind me of when Electraglide wanted to race a 80's Harley and a Hayabusa.


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## Guest (Apr 9, 2016)

Diablo said:


> I actually haven't found my awd cars to go sideways at all. not the way the rear ends would swing out on the old RWD's. you've prob never owned an AWD, so the argument is pointless, but trust me, AWD doesn't detract at all from the cruising experience.


Yea, trying to get my A4 to go sideways is really not possible. Not even with traction control turned off. We got a reasonable skid with my friend's RS5 at Audi Track Day in Sonoma last year but it took a lot to really make it lose control the traction technology is so goddamn good on these cars.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

IRC, that's the thing, it (AWD) is so damn sure footed. I don't know that I could ever go back.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

vadsy said:


> This is starting to remind me of when Electraglide wanted to race a 80's Harley and a Hayabusa.


you know, you never hear people say "...I just got out of the hospital after a heart attack...I sure wish theyd had the medical equipment they had in the 70's when my dad had his heart attack..". You also never hear them say.."Man, I wish they still made Commodore 64's...with the 5.25" floppy disks...now that was a REAL computer. Using a computer today just doesn't have the same feeling! and high speed internet, that's for sissies, real men get it done on 14400 dialup!"....yet for some reason, some people sound just like that about old motor vehicles. Not that the old ones don't have their charm. just hard to see them as being "better".


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> My '62 MGA was about the same and could go a lot further on a tank of gas than a tesla can go on a charge.


MGA was a great car - I had one briefly in highschool. Most people wouldn't understand that you had to "put on" the windows"


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Diablo said:


> if you think going fast is about saving money, then youre really missing the point. drive a Honda. but if youre really committed to it, trade your old Harley for something that makes the same power or more for less money, so you'll have more $$ for gas beer, food and girls, LOL.
> 
> The other thing that just about every car in the past 20 yrs has over a 60's hotrod, is reliability. Ive done the Detroit iron with holley carbs thing, would never go back. in fact, on my last hunk of 70's american junk (sold it last fall), I swapped out the orig intake and carb for an EFI system. Best thing to have been done on that SBC. the next best thing was when I swapped out the lame 3 speed TH350 auto trans for a 4 speed (which is still lame by todays standards, but it was an easier swap). interesting that modern cars have more gears than the old ones. wonder if that helps performance ?
> Modern cars burn clean and start reliably in any weather, and can go 100k kms without any service. That's a lot more fun to me than fussing with carb floats and jetting on a garage queen that you can only drive around here on weekends 6mths of the year .
> ...


I don't think going fast is about saving money.....my point there was that for the $10,ooo you could put a hell of a lot in your pocket. Price wise....the Hondas etc. that are the same as my Glide cost the same if not more and are comparable in every other way. A friend owns a 3 year old Wing so it's 13 years newer than my Glide. About the only difference is that his has a bigger gas tank so he can go further. 
Personally I find part of the fun is changing things like re jetting carbs etc. . Never have owned a AWD car, true.....I don't think the Just or the Terrain were hi performance. Before we bought the wifes Charger we tried the AWD version for a weekend. The AWD didn't add to the cruising experience. The rwd was a few thousand less so we bought it. I prefer a car or bike that if I have to....and want to I can and will work on. I also prefer carbs and standard trannys. As you say, oil and water.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

allthumbs56 said:


> MGA was a great car - I had one briefly in highschool. Most people wouldn't understand that you had to "put on" the windows"


imagine that....a car built for a world before drive-throughs became ubiquitious. IIRC, the early Vipers didn't have operable windows either. kind of shocking for its time.

That (Viper) may have been the only true modern production "retro" sports car. And the market said it didn't want it. Purists talk a big game in chat forums but don't put their money behind it or don't have much of it.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

vadsy said:


> This is starting to remind me of when Electraglide wanted to race a 80's Harley and a Hayabusa.


Still do.....Bring your Hayabusa down and we'll go from here to say Penticton and back.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> MGA was a great car - I had one briefly in highschool. Most people wouldn't understand that you had to "put on" the windows"


Or that it was easier to step over the door than open it.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Diablo said:


> imagine that....a car built for a world before drive-throughs became ubiquitious. IIRC, the early Vipers didn't have operable windows either. kind of shocking for its time.
> 
> That (Viper) may have been the only true modern production "retro" sports car. And the market said it didn't want it. Purists talk a big game in chat forums but don't put their money behind it or don't have much of it.


Used to go to the Whitespot all the time and A&W etc. Trays, not drive thru. Never had any problems with the trays. Or the Carhops. Never had a wrong order either.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Diablo said:


> Absolutely.
> I had a Mustang Gt in the late 80's. It was considered pretty bad ass back then, and real easy to break loose if you dropped the clutch. It had 225hp. I remember one of my friends dads saying "what do you need all that power for?". Today, even in most family cars, 200hp would be considered anemic.
> Amazing how things change.
> IMO, the best thing to happen to performance cars is AWD. Power that just leads to fish tailing is wasted IMO. One of the things that makes Vipers so undriveable. And why I love my Audi, and the sports car I had before it, Dodge Stealth Twin turbo. Although that car could spin all 4 wheels too if you were real hard on it.


I agree AWD hooks up easier, but I still like the general handling of RWD better.

With RWD you just have to let the car start to move the tiniest bit and _then _give her some gas to get a quick jump. It takes patience and experience.

I _will _say that the Audi A4 I rented last year in Columbus was the best AWD system I've personally driven.

I could really feel a difference from the FWD and RWD cars I've driven.

I have a Honda Accord Crosstour which I drive in the winter and it has AWD. I really can't feel much difference from FWD.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Diablo said:


> I've never heard it called that before. Looks like a super bird.
> I tend to think of a Ferrari Daytona when I hear that name.





Electraglide said:


> If I recall the Superbird was the well modified race version of the Daytona.


Daytona was Dodge (Charger), Superbird was Plymouth (Road Runner)


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

vadsy said:


> AWD is fantastic in performance cars, Subaru performance is especially fun to drive.


I haven't tried a Subaru yet, but I will soon. I'm working wih Subaru and will be spending some time with them in early May.

I do like the little platform they're sharing with Scion. Looks great, reasonable price.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Diablo said:


> you know, you never hear people say "...I just got out of the hospital after a heart attack...I sure wish theyd had the medical equipment they had in the 70's when my dad had his heart attack..". You also never hear them say.."Man, I wish they still made Commodore 64's...with the 5.25" floppy disks...now that was a REAL computer. Using a computer today just doesn't have the same feeling! and high speed internet, that's for sissies, real men get it done on 14400 dialup!"....yet for some reason, some people sound just like that about old motor vehicles. Not that the old ones don't have their charm. just hard to see them as being "better".



LOL, old guitars, old amps, old bands


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Electraglide said:


> Used to go to the Whitespot all the time and A&W etc. Trays, not drive thru. Never had any problems with the trays. Or the Carhops. Never had a wrong order either.


Time marches on, man. Drive ins are different from drive throughs, and I don't get the point of them, may as well walk inside the restaurant. Drive throughs have more in common with take out.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I agree AWD hooks up easier, but I still like the general handling of RWD better.
> 
> With RWD you just have to let the car start to move the tiniest bit and _then _give her some gas to get a quick jump. It takes patience and experience.
> 
> ...


So does the cross tour have torque steer? That to me is the biggest prob with fwd. feels awful, to me personally. I can't say I've ever experienced that with AWD, but it's possible that th AWD setup for performance vehicles is different than a CUV. Maybe more bias to the front wheels In a CUV.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Diablo said:


> Time marches on, man. Drive ins are different from drive throughs, and I don't get the point of them, may as well walk inside the restaurant. Drive throughs have more in common with take out.


Growing up the only place with a "drive through" window was the Dairy Queen other than that it was walk in or car hop service which to me is far superior and faster than most drive throughs. I suppose now a days it's drive up, place your order, inch forward, inch forward and after a time get to the window, hope your order is still warm and that it's right. Just because time marches on doesn't always mean that time marching on is right.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I'll take new or newish any day of the week. 
The years spent helping my dad fix things old because we couldn't afford new are not something I have fond memories of. Being able to fix something is good but needing to do it, I'll pass. I prefer it working well with basic and minimal maintenance, much like what many cars seem to be today. The advancements in automotive technology has made things safer and easier, if you think you can still get by thats fine but chances are the computer does it better and I would rather have the computer do it than just anyone on the road, no matter how awesome their driving gloves are.

I'm no car guy but have a few friends in the industry, working locally for places like BMW, Audi, VW, Acura and Subaru. The family and friends nights at some of these dealerships has been a great chance to go in and do the tires or oil changes in great facilities, it has also given me a chance to see some of the really cool stuff that is rolling out today. I love Audi and Subaru AWD, been driven around and shown the potential of some of these vehicles, I am always impressed. One of the coolest was the Audi S6 Wagon, basically a family race car, on fresh slippery snow, city streets, it had no problem staying where it needed to be no matter how the wheel was twisted and how hard the gas pedal was pressed. Beauty stuff. The Subaru WRX/STi is mind blowing. Someone was telling me you can split torque, on the fly, between the front and rear tires. Whatever you want as you drift that thing, RWD/FWD/AWD as you move, that is pretty rad.

@Electraglide - You really have it out for the pretty much everything after 1950, hey? Where do you go that a drive through has burned you so badly? You really think having someone come out to the parking lot to take your order and then go inside and prep it and then again come back out to serve you is faster than driving in a straight line the length of the restaurant? Sometimes not even fully coming to a stop, just rolling and having a meal handed to you. Whatever.

The bike thing, I don't have a Hayabusa so we couldn't truly perform a scientific test but I would wager you don't stand a chance even if it was a bike with half the engine. If it was a tractor pull you might do ok but a race... no.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2016)

Milkman said:


> .. I still like the general handling of RWD better.


Plus it's fun to fishtail around the corner of your street on that first day of snow.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

laristotle said:


> Plus it's fun to fishtail around the corner of your street on that first day of snow.


I saw this come across social media this week.. AWD vs RWD, obviously driver decision making is a big factor here.






Same type of event, same type of car, different city, different date.. (this one popped up only after I tried looking for the first one)


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

vadsy said:


> @Electraglide - You really have it out for the pretty much everything after 1950, hey? Where do you go that a drive through has burned you so badly? You really think having someone come out to the parking lot to take your order and then go inside and prep it and then again come back out to serve you is faster than driving in a straight line the length of the restaurant? Sometimes not even fully coming to a stop, just rolling and having a meal handed to you. Whatever.
> 
> The bike thing, I don't have a Hayabusa so we couldn't truly perform a scientific test but I would wager you don't stand a chance even if it was a bike with half the engine. If it was a tractor pull you might do ok but a race... no.


Pretty much but let's say pre 1970 or so. Drive thrus? I've stopped, walked in, got my order and walked out again while the cars in the drive thru haven't moved much. Here, Calgary, Vancouver and places in between. Where there's car hop service I'll relax in the car or, I'll go inside and eat. Faster doesn't matter then. If you're in so much of a hurry that you don't even come to a stop then you're in too much of a hurry as far as I'm concerned. 
The bike thing....I though you had a bike, I guess I was wrong. And I wasn't going to perform a scientific test, I was going to race. Still will but if you want to do a track think I might use the wife's bike. They have a nice flat track just out of Vernon. How would the Suzuki do on a half mile dirt track? Still figure here to Penticton would be fun. As far a a wager goes, works for me.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

laristotle said:


> Plus it's fun to fishtail around the corner of your street on that first day of snow.






Doing it old school.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I'm sure you can win or lose with food delivery methods. Time and technology is going to allow drones to serve me in my car at highway speeds. I'm going to preorder by talking to my car, speech to text, while driving by Gasoline Alley and Fatburger is going make it and deliver it by drone through my sunroof.

The bikes are gone for now, been a few years, just no time with family and life. I'll get back to it one day.

edit- Imagine if all those guys in the vid could actually use the energy they have to go somewhere instead of spinning in circles in the parking lot? Its like kids spinning on an office chair and falling over dizzy.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

vadsy said:


> I'm sure you can win or lose with food delivery methods.
> 
> The bikes are gone for now, been a few years, just no time with family and life. I'll get back to it one day.
> 
> edit- Imagine if all those guys in the vid could actually use the energy they have to go somewhere instead of spinning in circles in the parking lot? Its like kids spinning on an office chair and falling over dizzy.


Once in a while, or more than once in a while, you gotta do things just for the hell of it. Sit in a parking lot and burn donuts or jump on a bike and just go or spinning on an office chair until you fall off dizzy. Why not? Beats all hell out of being sensibly responsible all the time.
While dad was alive there was a lot of fix it time. Hell Dairy Queen and Chinese food once in a while was a treat. That was tied into working on Model A's and T's. Austins, Prefects and Morgans, farm equipment and a motorcycle or two. Learned a lot of stuff that I still use and had a lot of fun. If a truck wasn't working and you wanted to go fishing and grouse hunting you got the truck working. Me I prefer things I can work on.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Electraglide said:


> Once in a while, or more than once in a while, you gotta do things just for the hell of it. Sit in a parking lot and burn donuts or jump on a bike and just go or spinning on an office chair until you fall off dizzy. Why not? Beats all hell out of being sensibly responsible all the time.



Agreed. Live a little. 
Once in a while you gotta look around and see it isn't 1973 anymore.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

vadsy said:


> Agreed. Live a little.
> Once in a while you gotta look around and see it isn't 1973 anymore.


It is if you let it be. Not a hell of a lot around here that would have been out of place in 1973. About the only things that are are the cell phones and computers and if they were gone it would be no great lose. Same with the t.v.. The wife's car is the 'modern' one.....key fob, power this and that, computerized this and that.....a real pain in the butt. So far, for us, it's been back in the shop 3 times for recalls. It's also been in the shop for power window problems and power door lock problems. Those luckily were under warranty. The trucks are as basic as you can get.....no power anything. I don't think there's even an on board computer of any kind on either. Just can't see any reason to "modernize".


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

vadsy said:


> This is starting to remind me of when Electraglide wanted to race a 80's Harley and a Hayabusa.


That would be a waste of time and gas. I could whip any Harley with my 600 Ninja, why would you need a monster bike like the Hayabusa? 

One of those sport bikes with the Harley engine may have been entertaining to dice with, but they were still way overweight and underpowered - couldn't cut it in the cornering, braking or acceleration compared to a real sportbike.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> That would be a waste of time and gas. I could whip any Harley with my 600 Ninja, why would you need a monster bike like the Hayabusa?
> 
> One of those sport bikes with the Harley engine may have been entertaining to dice with, but they were still way overweight and underpowered - couldn't cut it in the cornering, braking or acceleration compared to a real sportbike.


I agree. I think the confusion here is that some guys are confusing being cool with having to be the fastest. HD's haven't been among the fastest production bikes in decades. it shouldn't matter, performance specs aren't what sells them. thats why they bought Buell, to cover some of that performance segment. it didn't work out of course, but nonetheless. its the laid back wannabe-badass image that sells their bikes and merch. all but the most insecure HD owner should be just fine with that. They are to bikes what Mexican low-riders are to cars. those guys couldn't care less about speed. they attract attention, convey the image they want, and are comfortable for cruising. they don't need to embarrass themselves by claiming to be as fast as Lamborghinis as well.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Just for the record, I like Harleys but I prefer the Japanese sports bikes. Tried both and I've made my choice.

Now back to the regularly scheduled programming...

@Electraglide [enter scene]


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

vadsy said:


> Just for the record, I like Harleys but I prefer the Japanese sports bikes. Tried both and I've made my choice.
> 
> Now back to the regularly scheduled programming...
> 
> @Electraglide [enter scene]


Let's see shall we.....you don't ride, well maybe one day again. I've heard that before. High/Deaf doesn't ride anymore. Not too sure if diablo rides but I sort of doubt it. I've been riding legally since I was 16 and that's 50+ years. You wanna run your ninja 600, go for it. I'll run a 883 sportster. Hope through Princton then on to Penticton or the Sea to Ski and then 99 to Lilooet. 
Will I see you guys on the road? I don't think so.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I don't think you being licensed and riding longer than me is going to make your Harley go faster.

I'm really not looking to start my usual internet fight but you have to admit that Harleys were not build for speed. I do have to say the Sea to Sky highway is one of my favourite rides, the stretch on 99 between Cache Creek and Lillooet is a beautiful piece of road. Rode it many times on my R6, can't wait to do it again.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

vadsy said:


> I don't think you being licensed and riding longer than me is going to make your Harley go faster.
> 
> I'm really not looking to start my usual internet fight but you have to admit that Harleys were not build for speed. I do have to say the Sea to Sky highway is one of my favourite rides, the stretch on 99 between Cache Creek and Lillooet is a beautiful piece of road. Drove it many times on my R6.


Stock probably not except maybe the v-rod but speed isn't everything especially in a road race. My Iron Head Sportster wasn't stock and when I'm finished with it my '81 FXS won't be stock. The Glide tops out at about 110 to 115 mph but then the damned thing weighs about 1300 lbs with me on it and is pushing a lot of air but I'd race it over a distance against the Suzuki or the ninja or what ever. The wife's bike tops out a bit over 120mph but is a lot faster and nimbler in the corners.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Electraglide said:


> Stock probably not except maybe the v-rod but speed isn't everything especially in a road race. My Iron Head Sportster wasn't stock and when I'm finished with it my '81 FXS won't be stock. The Glide tops out at about 110 to 115 mph but then the damned thing weighs about 1300 lbs with me on it and is pushing a lot of air but I'd race it over a distance against the Suzuki or the ninja or what ever. The wife's bike tops out a bit over 120mph but is a lot faster and nimbler in the corners.


You don't like 'dog humping a football' bikes and you think riding on your tailbone is faster around corners? LOL The incorrect weight distribution on a cruiser is going to give you better braking? LOL That high weight and low power are the recipes for acceleration and braking? LOL

Any idea why ALL roadracing/GP500 bikes WERE NOT cruisers? Your belief that a Harley would beat even the tiniest sportbike in a roadrace is just silly - probably as you want it. You can't really believe that when every racing series that ever existed proves you wrong..............

Yea, the only reason you'll beat any of us on our sportbikes is because we sold them a decade ago. You at least got that part right.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Electraglide said:


> Let's see shall we.....you don't ride, well maybe one day again. I've heard that before. High/Deaf doesn't ride anymore. Not too sure if diablo rides but I sort of doubt it. I've been riding legally since I was 16 and that's 50+ years. You wanna run your ninja 600, go for it. I'll run a 883 sportster. Hope through Princton then on to Penticton or the Sea to Ski and then 99 to Lilooet.
> Will I see you guys on the road? I don't think so.


whats your point?
some times 20 years of experience at something is really just 5 years of experience done 3 more times.
I have an atv that we use mostly in the winter, and a jetski for the summer. that pretty much gives me the full "cage-free" experience. wish I had more time for a street bike again, but not reality with a young family. maybe again when Im your age. with Ontario winters, its hard to get much use out of them. But ive had several dirt and street bikes over the years (actually raced dirt bikes), so I know what its all about and ive nothing to prove.
Besides, youre the one trolling a thread about an semi-exotic performance car with your usual Red-Forman-esque opinions and Im pretty sure you've never owned one. Am I likely to see you behind the wheel of a modern luxury performance car? I don't think so.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Jumping back into this conversation WAY late and responding to comments still on the first few pages.

The selling points for me are never having to go to a gas station again, stellar storage space, ultra-high safety ratings, intelligent cruise, and a boatload of other features. Hopefully I can actually sit up straight in a model 3 and see out the windshield. The other main concern for me is the ground clearance. Winter and post winter the entire nation becomes a land of potholes which would wreak havoc on the low ground clearance of a Tesla. Not sure I'd want a car that bottoms out a bunch of times when I drive it across town.

The fact that a Tesla has ludicrous acceleration doesn't sell me on it. I'm a big believer in "you can get used to anything once you do it enough". My first car had a V6 and was decently powerful for an entry level vehicle. I thought I'd never get used to a smaller engine with lower horsepower, but every car we've purchased since then has been smaller and weaker. My wife currently drives an Elantra which is about 2/3 the horsepower and 1/2 the torque of my last car. I swear when I drop the hammer on that thing it feels like I could accelerate faster riding a bicycle. Honestly though? After a couple of years driving it, I could care less. It is just a tool to get me from point A to point B. As long as I'm relatively safe and comfortable, I'm happy.

This talk about Harley Davidsons just reminds me of all my uncle's rants. They have a rich heritage of being great bikes made in the USA. But like everything else these days, most of the parts are made in the Asias. They are merely assembled in the USA.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

jbealsmusic said:


> Jumping back into this conversation WAY late and responding to comments still on the first few pages.
> 
> The selling points for me are never having to go to a gas station again, stellar storage space, ultra-high safety ratings, intelligent cruise, and a boatload of other features. Hopefully I can actually sit up straight in a model 3 and see out the windshield. *The other main concern for me is the ground clearance. Winter and post winter the entire nation becomes a land of potholes which would wreak havoc on the low ground clearance of a Tesla. Not sure I'd want a car that bottoms out a bunch of times when I drive it across town.*


I don't think that would be acceptable either.
I would hope that if that's a problem for this car, Tesla would include a front-end nose lift button that activates hydraulics to raise the nose of the car when you need more clearance. Lamborghinis have had it since 2005.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

jbealsmusic said:


> Hopefully I can actually sit up straight in a model 3 and see out the windshield.


Well, it's not any bigger than the Model S but the ergonomics might be a little different. Gonna say: I doubt it though. 



> The other main concern for me is the ground clearance. Winter and post winter the entire nation becomes a land of potholes which would wreak havoc on the low ground clearance of a Tesla. Not sure I'd want a car that bottoms out a bunch of times when I drive it across town.


Also doubt the clearance is going to be much higher here. It's low because that's where all the weight is with the batteries. Keeps it from being wobbly and makes nice and sure-footed. Have you seen the Model X though? Ars Technica had some nice things to say about it and everyone is calling it the SUV that you actually want to drive.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> You don't like 'dog humping a football' bikes and you think riding on your tailbone is faster around corners? LOL The incorrect weight distribution on a cruiser is going to give you better braking? LOL That high weight and low power are the recipes for acceleration and braking? LOL
> 
> Any idea why ALL roadracing/GP500 bikes WERE NOT cruisers? Your belief that a Harley would beat even the tiniest sportbike in a roadrace is just silly - probably as you want it. You can't really believe that when every racing series that ever existed proves you wrong..............
> 
> Yea, the only reason you'll beat any of us on our sportbikes is because we sold them a decade ago. You at least got that part right.


Kinda funny, one minute I'm talking about highway racing on stock production bikes and now it's on a roadrace concourse with non-production race bikes. The only track I mentioned was a 1 mile oval dirt track. High weight????? Both my wife's deluxe and my FXS have a much lower seat hight and weight distribution than your ninja 600 ( I believe that's the bike you mentioned). Neither of these bikes are "cruisers" tho my 'Glide is. It's closer to the ground too. Oh and "racing series" don't really matter here, I'm talking about two bikes going from point A to point B on the highway.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Diablo said:


> whats your point?
> some times 20 years of experience at something is really just 5 years of experience done 3 more times.
> I have an atv that we use mostly in the winter, and a jetski for the summer. that pretty much gives me the full "cage-free" experience. wish I had more time for a street bike again, but not reality with a young family. maybe again when Im your age. with Ontario winters, its hard to get much use out of them. But ive had several dirt and street bikes over the years (actually raced dirt bikes), so I know what its all about and ive nothing to prove.
> Besides, youre the one trolling a thread about an semi-exotic performance car with your usual Red-Forman-esque opinions and Im pretty sure you've never owned one. Am I likely to see you behind the wheel of a modern luxury performance car? I don't think so.


Owned a semi exotic performance car.....nope. The Plus 4 and the Elite were sports cars as was the MGA. Would you see me behind the wheel of a modern car that I own? Probably not. Something from the '50s or early '60s is more likely after the Dodge truck dies.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Great little bit this morning on CBC radio about EV's in Canada and how people are flocking to them. They covered rebates and incentive programs, or lack of, strain on the electrical grids, government and industry adapting to the new wave, etc. It was mentioned how technology is quickly improving and how charging stations are spreading across the land. I thought it was very interesting that Peaveymart, headquartered in Red Deer, is putting in stage 2 chargers across the western provinces at their own cost to help spread the use of these vehicles. Pretty great stuff.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

vadsy said:


> Great little bit this morning on CBC radio about EV's in Canada and how people are flocking to them. They covered rebates and incentive programs, or lack of, strain on the electrical grids, government and industry adapting to the new wave, etc. It was mentioned how technology is quickly improving and how charging stations are spreading across the land. I thought it was very interesting that Peaveymart, headquartered in Red Deer, is putting in stage 2 chargers across the western provinces at their own cost to help spread the use of these vehicles. Pretty great stuff.


The one here has been here for more than a year. Doesn't get that much use and as far as I know is only usable when the store is open. Funny thing is is that the hotel close to PeaveyMart has 4 Tesla SuperCharge stations. Not too sure if they are free or not. Seems like the only other 4 in Alberta are in Canmore. As far as I understand the Tesla ones are installed by Tesla. Guess that means in Edmonton a dead battery will have you sitting for about 9 hrs.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I had no idea so many charging stations were already in operation.

http://www.caa.ca/evstations/


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

vadsy said:


> I had no idea so many charging stations were already in operation.
> 
> http://www.caa.ca/evstations/


BC and parts of Ont. mostly in Canada. From here to central Ont. you're kinda out of luck It did surprise me tho where the Tesla charging stations are in Ab. Also surprised me that a lot were sort of restricted. If they are in say a hotel parking lot you had to be a guest of the hotel and a lot that I looked at that were at businesses were only usable during certain hrs. Also the one in Manning Park, where there is not even cell service has Wifi....free wifi. Go figure.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Pretty down on the whole concept, hey?
Well, sadly these might not be for you. 
Im sure it'll catch on, the landscape wasn't littered with a million gas stations when the first Model T rolled off the line. I do think more charging stations are around than you're considering, it's not all as bleak as you seem to see it.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

vadsy said:


> Pretty down on the whole concept, hey?
> Well, sadly these might not be for you.
> Im sure it'll catch on, the landscape wasn't littered with a million gas stations when the first Model T rolled off the line. I do think more charging stations are around than you're considering, it's not all as bleak as you seem to see it.


The info is from Tesla and from Plug Share mostly. From what I gather they are pretty accurate. I'm not too sure about the link larasee posted but I think it was to a Plug Share map. The local plug ins I've seen. I don't particularly see it as bleak but as impractical for more than an around town vehicle. Forget the Teslas that are on the market. Say you own the top of the line Leaf and you want to go to the Stampede. That now becomes a long, iffy trip to the point where you could have an over night stop some where along the way. Even in a Tesla I'm not too sure if you could take the kids to Macklin to watch the Bunnock games or to Drumheller for the Dinos either. To me the only possible pro electric cars have is a possible savings on gas. Maybe, depending on where you live, the price of electricity and what it would cost to put a high charging port at your house. Nope, you're limited as to where you go, how you get there, and how long it's going to take you to get there. Plus where you're going to park if and when you get there. Too many cons on the whole concept.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I was at a technical center in the Detroit area yesterday and saw a nice Tesla charging.

The tech center was a competitor to Tesla in the E car market.

I was surprised that the charging ports were compatable.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Electraglide said:


> Kinda funny, one minute I'm talking about highway racing on stock production bikes and now it's on a roadrace concourse with non-production race bikes. The only track I mentioned was a 1 mile oval dirt track. High weight????? Both my wife's deluxe and my FXS have a much lower seat hight and weight distribution than your ninja 600 ( I believe that's the bike you mentioned). Neither of these bikes are "cruisers" tho my 'Glide is. It's closer to the ground too. Oh and "racing series" don't really matter here, I'm talking about two bikes going from point A to point B on the highway.


Your dead wrong about weight distribution - all those bikes have way too much weight on the rear - horrible braking performance. It's simple physics. My Ninja would annihilate those bikes on an A to B road race. 

Who said anything about non-production race bikes? You, not me. There are numerous road racing series that feature street legal bikes. I've yet to see Harley competitive in any of them - unless it was series only for Harleys.

But why are you arguing? Do you really buy a Harley for accelerating/braking/cornering performance? That's like buying an acoustic guitar because it tastes better than an electric one.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

vadsy said:


> Pretty down on the whole concept, hey?
> Well, sadly these might not be for you.
> Im sure it'll catch on, the landscape wasn't littered with a million gas stations when the first Model T rolled off the line. I do think more charging stations are around than you're considering, it's not all as bleak as you seem to see it.


In the near future I think the technology will most likely get critical mass from major urban areas, in a lot of cases by younger, more techno friendly, enviro/socially conscious, affluent buyers. In Canada, that's still a lot of people, with a very effective population density.
I don't think Tesla et al is relying on the Electraglide demographic anymore than Starbucks is, and they've done pretty well for themselves.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

It's inevitable. That's why I wonder why they haven't addressed the road tax issue.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Electraglide said:


> It is if you let it be. Not a hell of a lot around here that would have been out of place in 1973. About the only things that are are the cell phones and computers and if they were gone it would be no great lose. Same with the t.v.. The wife's car is the 'modern' one.....key fob, power this and that, computerized this and that.....a real pain in the butt. So far, for us, it's been back in the shop 3 times for recalls. It's also been in the shop for power window problems and power door lock problems. Those luckily were under warranty. The trucks are as basic as you can get.....no power anything. I don't think there's even an on board computer of any kind on either. Just can't see any reason to "modernize".


You realize that cellphones and computers are *most* of what allow modern commerce, travel and science/health studies to happen right? You're literally saying "meh" to the things that have created life-saving antidotes and discoveries. No, it should not be the 70's again, ever. They came, they went, we learned something.

Tell the guy who is gone for work 3 months of the year that he'd be better off without the ipad that lets him sing his 3 year old to sleep from Hong Kong. He'll laugh in your face.

You won't find modern tech so laughable when it's keeping you alive. That's not an age jab, that applies to anyone who may suffer any kind of injury requiring medical attention.

I'd expect this much "the way it was before was better" stuff if we were talking about war in the early 1900's where the most you could do was gun someone down in a trench versus being thousands of kilometers away bombing them (higher death count). Not when it comes to things that make travel safer and come with large environmental benefits.

Once someone figures out how to be rid of petroleum-based products, we're all going to be a lot better off.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Budda said:


> You realize that cellphones and computers are *most* of what allow modern commerce, travel and science/health studies to happen right? You're literally saying "meh" to the things that have created life-saving antidotes and discoveries. No, it should not be the 70's again, ever. They came, they went, we learned something.
> 
> Tell the guy who is gone for work 3 months of the year that he'd be better off without the ipad that lets him sing his 3 year old to sleep from Hong Kong. He'll laugh in your face.
> 
> ...


And if you get rid of petroleum based products what becomes of all the cell phones and computers and ipads and things like that? And all the medicines etc.. "Sings his 3 year old to sleep"? Makes good tv that. The modern tech that's keeping me going was discovered years ago and both of the meds are petroleum based. The technology that is saving my grandson is the same. 
The electric car in the op is just modifications on "science and technology" from before ww2. 
Screw it, it ain't worth the hassle anymore.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Consumer electronics would need to be built using different materials. Why rely entirely on something that can and will run out?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Electricity and steam were considered viable alternatives 100+ years ago, but the advent of cheap gasoline and a well developed infrastructure steered the industry to where it is. Cheap and efficient batteries are bound to bring that tech forward, maybe a little, maybe a lot (I don't see steam making a comeback just yet......). Cheap gas can't last forever. 


BUT ............... if you live in a province that burns fossil fuels to produce electricity, are you really being green? Add to that, the environmental damage of building the EV (well, primarily the batteries). Most gasoline cars with cat converters and other tech is probably greener than your run-of-the-mill thermal plant. 

This is green in the most shallow sense - you get to appear 'green' while not really being green and you get to look like one of the media whores in California that has to be seen in one. I remember when the Hummer held that cache. How time change. LOL


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

All conversations about gasoline and internal combustion take the infrastructure for granted. If it wasn't as entrenched as it is, the whole industry would likely be gone. No one considers the costs that went into the infrastructure. Put that same kind of money into electric and it's a winner.
If gas had to start from scratch it would be a non-starter now.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

@jb welder I agree. 

I feel the same about starting up a new infrastructure to compress and ship natural gas to a place that has an excess of the stuff already. But 'non-starter' to a government seems to read 'opportunity', like building aluminum ferries that no one wants and are eventually given away.


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2016)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/720882502680711168


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