# Vinyl



## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Since I'm a teen I prefer vinyl over cd but I never had the money, the patience and the hype to get in! Now, things a differents, my best friend's dad have an old turn table and some old black sabbath and led zep vinyl and I really love that sound. Maybe it's snob, probably tough, but I want to get in more seriously. Can you give me some advice on a good turn table but not too expensive? Maybe around 150$ max! ANd do you know an online store with vinyl, if there's some in canada it will be appreciate! Thanks guys!


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

Ti-Ron said:


> Since I'm a teen I prefer vinyl over cd but I never had the money, the patience and the hype to get in! Now, things a differents, my best friend's dad have an old turn table and some old black sabbath and led zep vinyl and I really love that sound. Maybe it's snob, probably tough, but I want to get in more seriously. Can you give me some advice on a good turn table but not too expensive? Maybe around 150$ max! ANd do you know an online store with vinyl, if there's some in canada it will be appreciate! Thanks guys!


$150 won't buy a good turn table and needle new. It will barely buy a new intermediate quality cartridge.

I'd suggest you start looking at used turntables. Hopefully it will have a decent cartridge already.


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

Hi Ti-Ron,

Welcome to the plastic fantastic 

You can get yourself a belt drive turntable for as little as $10 from a thrift store and pickup a Grado F3 off Ebay for about $50. Get a new stylus (always get a new stylus) for another $10 and you have a $500 TT for < $100.

Well, at least that's how I did it.

Cheers!


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## Bullitt (Feb 5, 2009)

Wow, Vinyl comeback kksjur Who would of thought it. I have over 500 albums put away because of the cost to convert them to to burn them on a CD. Now it is fairly in expensive to do it now. You can actually get a turntable with a USB cord to plug right into your computer. I do not think I would want to go back to vinyl, except to maybe convert some of my albums because I can not get them on Cds. Some even were hard enough to find on vinyl.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Paul said:


> I'll be the guy who mentions the less obvious.....Very few home music systems come with a phonograph input. That means that in addition to everything else, you will need an RIAA phono stage pre-amp. NAD makes one that sounds a lot more expensive than it is.



Surprisingly enough my $2,000 Onkyo/Integra receiver that I bought a few years ago has a phono input.


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## 4321 (Nov 25, 2008)

Bullitt said:


> Wow, Vinyl comeback kksjur Who would of thought it. I have over 500 albums put away because of the cost to convert them to to burn them on a CD. Now it is fairly in expensive to do it now. You can actually get a turntable with a USB cord to plug right into your computer. I do not think I would want to go back to vinyl, except to maybe convert some of my albums because I can not get them on Cds. Some even were hard enough to find on vinyl.



It's crazy that vinyl has become popular again and I'm glad to hear it. I miss those days of sitting down to listen to an entire album, both side 1 and side 2 while staring at the album cover, or reading along with lyrics. But my fav part was always reading the liner notes, I learned alot about the artists just on liner notes alone. This was all before the internet kids 

I also remember working my "dream job" in the 80's - a full time job at a record store, back then we used to sell 'em 3 for 18 bucks !! Now yer lucky to find any ONE of the new releases or vinyl re-issues for under $30 but I understand they are using better/heavier vinyl these days. 

I STILL think that vinyl sounds better than any CD. Who's with me?? Can I get an Amen


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Thanks guy for all the infos! 
Paul: It's not possible to use the RCA aux to plug a turn table?
I'll look aroud what is possible! The idea of Gregg seems good too!
Any online store??


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

I found that on the net and I'm wondering if it's enough:
http://www.needledoctor.com/Audio-T...ith-Switchable-Phono-Pre-amp?sc=2&category=46

It's in my price range and from what I've read Audio Technica is a good compagny, any pros or cons?
There's also a USB version on eBay but I won't use it to transfert, ony for listening


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

Ti-Ron said:


> Thanks guy for all the infos!
> Paul: It's not possible to use the RCA aux to plug a turn table?
> I'll look aroud what is possible! The idea of Gregg seems good too!
> Any online store??


 
No you need a phono preamp, the RIAA eqing needs to be applied to the output of a turn table to get the original full spectrum back. Because of limited space on vinyl the bass is pulled out before cutting vinyl and then reapplied in the phono preamp stage. If you don't have a proper phono preamp it will sound like a shrill transistor radio.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Surprisingly enough my $2,000 Onkyo/Integra receiver that I bought a few years ago has a phono input.


My $2000 Pioneer Elite has one as well. Must be the price point. :smile:


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

Bullitt said:


> Wow, Vinyl comeback kksjur Who would of thought it. I have over 500 albums put away because of the cost to convert them to to burn them on a CD. Now it is fairly in expensive to do it now. You can actually get a turntable with a USB cord to plug right into your computer. I do not think I would want to go back to vinyl, except to maybe convert some of my albums because I can not get them on Cds. Some even were hard enough to find on vinyl.


Inexpensive won't get you a good result, those USB turntables are the price of good cartridge so what do you think the end result will be?

:smile:


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Every high-end stereo/audio store I've checked out have their listening rooms decked out with expensive phonograph equipment and hi-fi tube amplifiers. CDs are laughable by comparison. Good vinyl doesn't snap, crackle or pop. It was kinda freaky the first time I heard a record spun on a crazy expensive turntable.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

"Correction...GREAT vinyl doesn't snap, crackle or pop when new. No matter how good the vinyl and the system LP's degrade with each and every play. There is very little out there that is on GREAT vinyl"

Well semantics aside, I was really surprised when an old friend pulled out some killer records and played them for me on his excellent stereo. Don't recall what make/brand the turntable was, but the amp is a Rotel from the mid 70s. His speaker cabinets are loaded with Dynacos from around 1970. He talked about spending a couple hundred bucks on the needle and so forth. All I can say is I'm not huge on Blondie, but "Tide is High " and "Heart of Glass" sounded mind boggling through his stereo. None of the usual static and pops. One of the things I've always LOVED about vinyl is that every time you play it's not the same as the last. I've often wondered if the brain picks-up on this in some subconscious way that makes it seem more interesting, even if it's old ratty records on a so-so turntable. I have some great CDs in my collection that have been re-mastered since they originally came out in the late 80's early 90's. My "The Band " CDs are a prime example. I have a copy of their second album from '90 and three others that were re-released in 2000 and the difference is huge.

Shawn:food-smiley-004:


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

How's you DIY skills, Ti-Ron? I have some phono/preamp PCB's from an ealier design of a tube RIAA pre.

Cheers!


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Geek said:


> How's you DIY skills, Ti-Ron? I have some phono/preamp PCB's from an ealier design of a tube RIAA pre.
> 
> Cheers!


If there's a step by step illustrated instructions booklet with it maybe I can work something, but seriously I'm not really good! I have 10 thumbs!


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

Ti-Ron said:


> If there's a step by step illustrated instructions booklet with it maybe I can work something, but seriously I'm not really good! I have 10 thumbs!


Heh, I'm really lousy at documentation, so there isn't. Sorry :-(


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Keep your eyes peeled for a used Rega P2. Rega's P2 and P3 are the best deals in analog audio playback. The P3 is the real steal at it's price point, but the P2 is closer to what you're looking to spend. Though, be warned, it's still in the $300~ range.

If you don't mind vintage gear, track down an old Dual table (the 502 and 505 are great, some of the 1200 series are nice too). They might require more work to get going, or require an overhaul, but they'll be cheaper than the Rega.

Like Paul mentioned, the NAD PP-1 or PP-2 are dynamite for their price. I have a PP-1 that I use with my old Dual 505 and a Rega Elys cartridge. It's a pretty good bang-for-the-buck system.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

I just ordered a Rega P3-24 with a Sumiko Pearl Cartridge. Local turntable guru is aligning the cartridge and then running a few albums through it and then fine tuning the alignment again.

Should be able to pick it up Saturday.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

Jeff Flowerday said:


> I just ordered a Rega P3-24 with a Sumiko Pearl Cartridge. Local turntable guru is aligning the cartridge and then running a few albums through it and then fine tuning the alignment again.
> 
> Should be able to pick it up Saturday.


Since the turntable doesn't arrive till tomorrow, I'm still toying with going MC instead of MM. Just not sure if I want to spend that much more for Sumiko Blue cartridge and MC capable preamp since I don't currently have one.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*Vinyl DOES sound better!*

Just thought I'd chip in with the "techie" viewpoint!:smile:

Unscratched vinyl DOES sound better! There's a proven technical reason for this. The CD technology was kinda rushed to the market. When you convert an analogue signal to a digital one made up of "bits" representing ones and zeros, you end up with a waveform that's not smooth but rather kinda "bumpy". Think of drawing a sine wave but instead of a smooth pen line you have little rectangles side by side along the entire line.

Obviously, if you have more and more little rectangles squeezed together along the line eventually your eye won't be able to see the "bumps" of the rectangles anymore. The line will appear just as smooth as the original analogue signal.

What determines how many rectangles, or bits, per inch of line is something called the "sampling rate". When the analogue signal is converted to digital you can think of it as taking a picture of the wave very, very fast! The faster you snap the camera the more pictures you get per second and the less jerky the "movie" becomes, until you end up not being able to tell the difference.

CDs came out with a sampling rate that was a bit slow to perfectly copy that analogue wave. It was state of the art at the time and I'm sure there were engineers involved that wanted to wait a bit until they could provide faster sampling rates cost-effectively but the marketing "suits" didn't want to wait. Those of us old enough to remember might recall that when CDs first came out the advertising never actually said that the sound was just as hifi as good value. Rather, we were told how CDs would never get scratchy! Not a fair comparison.

This is one of the reasons that Neil Young refused to allow most of his albums to be re-released on CD. Neil's a bit of a techie himself and was well aware of the sonic limitations of CDs. Now we have DVDs and Blu-Ray's and stuff. The digital technology with this media is every bit as good or better than vinyl. Neil has announced that we will now see those albums on Blu-Ray.

To add to my rant, I've come to believe that we have an entire generation growing up that has never heard good hifi sound! Most folks don't realize that the MP3 file format was and is a stripped down, compressed format designed to reduce a file size so that you could download it faster with a 56k dialup modem. High fidelity went out the window. Also, those "girly man" little speaker boxes you see in all the stores just can't deliver like the big guns of the 70's and before. We've allowed the 'suits" to trade fidelity for convenience. You can't have both. It's physics! Mother Nature's Universe has laws and she won't let you break them.

Digital now has the tools to finally catch up but in the meantime it's great that vinyl is still available!

:food-smiley-004:


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Also, those "girly man" little speaker boxes you see in all the stores just can't deliver like the big guns of the 70's and before.


I don't know if I agree with the above statement. Yes the front speakers have gotten very small (skinny) compared to the big speakers of the 70's. But their meant to be partnered with a powered sub size relative to the size of the room they are going in to. My front speakers are very thin in physical size and the speakers are very small and are designed to deliver excellent high end, which they do well. My Sub is a 12" with an integrated 300 watt power amp. I'd easily put this up against any high end 70's system. I know I've owned them.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> I don't know if I agree with the above statement. Yes the front speakers have gotten very small (skinny) compared to the big speakers of the 70's. But their meant to be partnered with a powered sub size relative to the size of the room they are going in to. My front speakers are very thin in physical size and the speakers are very small and are designed to deliver excellent high end, which they do well. My Sub is a 12" with an integrated 300 watt power amp. I'd easily put this up against any high end 70's system. I know I've owned them.


I've heard allot of speaker sub combinations and they don't compare to full range towers, IMO. Part of the problem might be the amp not having a fine enough adjustment in crossover point but, the speaker sub combination always sounds a little thin in the lower mid range.

IMO, There's nothing better for listening to a stereo recording then a nice set of full range towers, with some weight to them and your amp set to direct so that it's not fiddling with the signal.

I'm running a pair "NHT Fours" bi-amped and absolutely love them. They are sexy as hell too. Don't let thin deceive you on these, they have 10" side firing woofers.










http://nhthifi.com/current/products/speakers/four.html


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Jeff Flowerday said:


> I just ordered a Rega P3-24 with a Sumiko Pearl Cartridge. Local turntable guru is aligning the cartridge and then running a few albums through it and then fine tuning the alignment again.
> 
> Since the turntable doesn't arrive till tomorrow, I'm still toying with going MC instead of MM. Just not sure if I want to spend that much more for Sumiko Blue cartridge and MC capable preamp since I don't currently have one.


There's a lot to be said for moving coil cartridges. They certain are impressive sounding little guys, but I've never personally felt the need to "upgrade" my home system. I don't listen to vinyl exclusively and I don't want to dump cash into a new cart and preamp. If vinyl was #1 at my house, I would consider it. 

Jeff - my advice would be to try to demo your table against a similar P3 with the Sumiko Blue (a fantastic cartridge, btw) in a audio shop. Let your ears make the decision and then your wallet either allow or veto it.



Jeff Flowerday said:


> I've heard allot of speaker sub combinations and they don't compare to full range towers, IMO. Part of the problem might be the amp not having a fine enough adjustment in crossover point but, the speaker sub combination always sounds a little thin in the lower mid range.
> 
> IMO, There's nothing better for listening to a stereo recording then a nice set of full range towers, with some weight to them and your amp set to direct so that it's not fiddling with the signal.


I agree. Sub integration into a system and a room is too finicky. Too often you end up with boomy bass or the ol' disappearing sub trick.

I've resisted going surround sound actually, because I find my movie watching experience is just great as it is running through my 2-channel system. Sure I don't get the cars-whizzing-around-you sound, but I don't really need it. When I watch my Band of Brothers DVD boxes set, the shelling scenes in episode 7 "The Breaking Point" sound fantastic, with plenty of stereo imaging and deep bass. I actually had a Definitive Technologies subwoofer for a while, which I enjoyed in my university days, but came to realize was, at best, redundant and, at worst, resulted in an overabundance of bass which annoyed room-mates and neighbours alike.

What I really, _really_, *REALLY* want though, is to upgrade my Energy speakers to Magnepan 1.6s or if I can afford them (and have the room for them) Maggie 3.6s. Some people think they're ugly, but I quite like the rather plain design, and the flat panel-ness of them makes them easy to place, but they _do_ tend to visually dominate a room.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

I'm not intending to hijack the thread or anything in what way would the discussion above apply to old '78s? 
I'm presuming that hi-fi was introduced after this era (haven't seen any "hi-fi" Victrolas around!) and any extra expense in turntable technology to play them would be somewhat wasted. Is this correct?
I've got a bunch that I inherited from my father plus some others that I've aquired. I currently have no means to play them and I'd really like to be able to. I'm wondering what is the best comprimise between sound reproduction and cost?


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Paul said:


> Those look good, and while I don't doubt the sound, the spec that scares me is the low end of only 40Hz. For home theatre movie explosion sounds that won't cut it at all. For most pop/rock music you'll be OK, but get into some serious church pipe organ and you really do need to stay flat down to less than 20Hz. Maybe those things do go well down into low bass, the specs don't say......but depending on what you listen to, that might matter.
> 
> I will argue til the cows come home that you can improve the quality of bass performance, (arguable the toughest to control) with bass trapping a lot more cheaply and quickly than you can with throwing money at processing, power and loudspeakers.


You're right about room treatment. And, as a corollary, speaker placement to avoid null spots is hugely important too.

Regarding the Maggies, I used to work in an upscale audio shop and spent a _lot_ of time auditioning the various speakers we sold. To my ears, of all the speakers the store carried between $1000 and $3000-ish dollars, the Magnepan 1.6 was the best performer. A lot has been written and said about their bass performance, and yes, they won't reproduce 20hz too well, but for most recorded audio they do just fine in the bass (the kick/tom part in Dire Straits "Once Upon a Time in the West" off _Communique_ sounds huge!). Where they really shine is the mids and the highs. Excellent speaker and a great value at it's price point. The only speakers I heard that I would say are flat-out better are Magnepan's own 3.6s and Wilson's WATT/Puppy and MAXX2 speakers. And as far as planar speakers goes, they trounced Martin Logans 6 ways from Sunday.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

Paul said:


> Those look good, and while I don't doubt the sound, the spec that scares me is the low end of only 40Hz. For home theatre movie explosion sounds that won't cut it at all. For most pop/rock music you'll be OK, but get into some serious church pipe organ and you really do need to stay flat down to less than 20Hz. Maybe those things do go well down into low bass, the specs don't say......but depending on what you listen to, that might matter.


I agree with you the 40. But to hit 20 your pretty much need a dedicated sub. Not many modern full range speaker will hit that.

I'm quite happy with mine going to 27. I honestly believe they out perform my crappy sub when it comes to low end.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Jeff Flowerday said:


> I agree with you the 40. But to hit 20 your pretty much need a dedicated sub. Not many if any modern full range speaker will hit that.
> 
> I'm quite happy with mine going to 27. I honestly believe they out perform my crappy sub when it comes to low end.


Lots of them will, and with shocking ease. The only problem is you'd have to take a mortgage out to afford them. Check out the Wilson MAXX or WATT/Puppy I mentioned above. Phenomenal speakers.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

hollowbody said:


> Lots of them will, and with shocking ease. The only problem is you'd have to take a mortgage out to afford them. Check out the Wilson MAXX or WATT/Puppy I mentioned above. Phenomenal speakers.


All right I should have worded it differently with the word affordable. :smile:

I'm having trouble find a sub for less that $1000 that will hit 20.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

hollowbody said:


> There's a lot to be said for moving coil cartridges. They certain are impressive sounding little guys, but I've never personally felt the need to "upgrade" my home system. I don't listen to vinyl exclusively and I don't want to dump cash into a new cart and preamp. If vinyl was #1 at my house, I would consider it.
> 
> Jeff - my advice would be to try to demo your table against a similar P3 with the Sumiko Blue (a fantastic cartridge, btw) in a audio shop. Let your ears make the decision and then your wallet either allow or veto it.


I actually decided to do just that on my way to work. I'm going to take my existing table in tomorrow and get him to do a quick setup on the cartridge. I was never confident I got it perfect when I installed it. We are going to do a shoot out between my 1200 with a Shure 97 cartridge and the P3-24 with Sumiko Blue on it.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

I completely agree with Jeff and Wild Bill. My wife got one of those iPods for Christmas. She put some of our CDs on her iPod and we A/B'd them. No contest. I've had the very same discusion with friends. When we were kids we listened to vinyl, cassettes,8 tracks and CDs. We know the difference. I don't think many 20 year olds know what good analogue sound is like. I think the popularity of sub-woofer heavy stereos and home theater audio is awful. It's lacking the very frequency range that most of the instruments we love call home. I love Neil Young's last video where he has his headphones plugged into an apple, then exclaims that it "sounds like $hit".

Shawn :food-smiley-004:

I'll add one more thing. Many of my friends are "computer guys". One of them has been a programmer since his teens, and he really knows his stuff. He explained to me in fairly great detail that I won't go into hear, nor could I likely repeat without gross errror, the early days of digital re-mastering. The bottom line was most of these guys were not sound engineers or even having backgrounds in audio reproduction. What they did know about were computers and the languages they spoke. Once the systems and the data entry interfaces were more "user friendly", then people who knew music but were not much for the intricacies of computers became involved in digital re-mastering. Digital IS getting better all the time, but good ol' analogue is here to stay I think.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Jeff Flowerday said:


> All right I should have worded it differently with the word affordable. :smile:
> 
> I'm having trouble find a sub for less that $1000 that will hit 20.


Having earlier badmouthed Martin Logan, I'll pipe up with a recommendation for them here. Try their subs! They rock! At retail, I think only the Grotto is <$1k, but used, you should be able to find a Descent, which is a truly awesome sub.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Paul said:


> I hear you.....but I don't think it's as bad as you think. The 44.1kHz sampling rate was in part determined by the Nyquist frequency.
> 
> The fundamental of the highest note on a piano is just under 5kHz. With a sampling rate of 44.1Khz.....99 44/100% of the population will not hear the difference between an original signal and a reconstructed sample. For all intents and purposes, human hearing ranges from 20Hz to 20kHz. But how many folks can still hear the 17kHz-ish whine from a CRT monitor? If they can't hear that how does any body expect them to hear the difference between a 15kHz sine wave and a 15kHz saw tooth wave? Seriously, I would be tempted to wager that _nobody_ over 20 years old on this forum could hear the difference.


Paul, you're right, but fundamentals aren't the only thing that determines how something sounds. There has been some research into this topic and a lot of debate about the findings, but what seems to be the gist is that many harmonics and transients which go beyond 20khz help you to "hear" differences in sound. It's almost an implied rather than obvious difference. Here's an interesting article, which should be taken with a grain of salt, since it was written by some audio dude, but there seems to be some good info in there.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Paul said:


> I've read stuff like that, but I've never experienced it first hand myself. My last hearing test was less than 2 years ago, and I still had "normal" hearing up to 18kHz, or so I was told.
> 
> I recall seeing/hearing/reading something once that indicated that a huge part of our ability to identify and locate sounds had to do with the attack transient. Get rid of the intial attack, fade in the sound gently, and a frightening amount of folks can't tell a flute from an oboe from a violin.
> 
> ...


True. There's a lot going on in the human brain which isn't readily quantifiable. Even if you know what to look for, or recognize something as important data, it's not always 100% clear as to _how_ that data should be quantified, or _why_ it's important, let alone how it affects our understanding of how our noggins work.

Which reminds me. I haven't had a hearing test in a while, so all this might be moot. Maybe I'm half-deaf


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Thanks for all the infos guyz! I'll look around for what's comming! Maybe I'll score something great and if you ever want to sell your turn table let me know!


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Paul said:


> I guess my point is that it ain't just numbers, and using numbers to discount CD's isn't entirely useful.
> 
> YMMV.:smile:


Oh, please don't misunderstand me! If you took my words about sampling rate as saying that was the ONLY reason CD's don't measure up to vinyl then I gave you a false impression!

I've no doubt that there are a host of reasons and your point about overmastering may be a big chunk of it. Hollowbody and Rugburn both offered factors that reinforce this idea. I've always believed that its all about the craftsman and not the tool.

I've heard that many older musicians, particularly bluesmen, will shun digital studios in favour of those still equipped with older analog gear. It seems it's not so much that they don't trust the newer technology but they have had too many bad experiences with young "kids" who figure that a couple of grand worth of rack mounted gear and a bootleg copy of "ProTools" makes them a recording engineer! Someone running vintage equipment is more likely to be experienced, at least in their eyes.

:food-smiley-004:


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

I wonder how these stack up for playing vinyl? 

http://www.elpj.com/ 9kkhhd


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

to the op T-Ron..........I recall reading recently about 2 different turntables recently that operate directly into a PC for putting your vinyl on disc and/or eliminating the crackles from old and abused vinyl during playback........they were in the $300 range.............personally I have been gathering (and giving away just as fast) the older style turntables so that I will eventually have some spares for playing my vinyl. They can be picked up for little $ at places like the Salvation Army thrift shops.....I too have about 500+ and nothing decent to play them on.......cheers
Gerry


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Hamstrung said:


> I wonder how these stack up for playing vinyl?
> 
> http://www.elpj.com/ 9kkhhd


I remember reading a very favourable review for that table in a hi-fi magazine a few years back, but have no direct experience with it. It's certainly a cool idea!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

hollowbody said:


> I remember reading a very favourable review for that table in a hi-fi magazine a few years back, but have no direct experience with it. It's certainly a cool idea!



They'll send you a CD that demonstrates preserving analog.



> We invite you to experience the Laser Turntable for yourself - just fill out a brief questionnaire and we will send you a CD demonstrating the difference between traditional needle turntables and the Laser Turntable.


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## 23cicero (Mar 25, 2008)

Hey Ti-Ron, 

The thread, while certainly informative has gotten a bit away from your initial requests for a turntable "under $150" and where to get some records.

I just thought that I'd mention that little Audio Technica turntable you were looking at is not a bad little turntable at all for the price. It's got a built in preamp and it'll do the job. It'll at least get you playing records which is the key thing I think. I had one and was happy with it until I upgraded and now my sister-in-law has it and she's happy with it. It's not audiophile quality and certainly not as nice as say a Rega P3 but it's a fraction of the cost and it'll get you started.-- and most importantly, havin fun! I agree with some of the other posters that you can find some deals at flea markets/thriftstores _IF_ you know what you're doing with respect to the mechanics etc of the turntable. If not, it can get pretty expensive to fix an old one up.

Regarding finding records: try the thriftstores and Flea markets and Craigslist and Kijiji. You may always be able to get those sweet, rare records but for some general, great stuff you can find lots secondhand for some really good deals.

Just for a lark, my wife bought me a turntable (the Audio Technica) along with a few records she found at a Flea Market a couple of years ago for my birthday. Nothing big. Just for fun. And now I'm massively hooked. It's so much fun. I don't notice a huge difference in sound quality between CDs and LPs -- it varies so much with respect to the pressings and the quality of records -- but I loove playing with the records. The whole ritual involved, cleaning, handling, the art work, the care taken to set it up. It's a completely different, and much more rewarding experience that just putting in a CD. 

Anyway, hopefully you sort everything out soon and get rockin with your records.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> They'll send you a CD that demonstrates preserving analog.


Hahahaha, that's not even worth commenting on.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Thanks a lot 23ciecero for your infos! I'm saving my money for that turntable (audio technica) and I'll start that new trip into LP!


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

*Best Girlfriend ever!*

For my birthday, my girlfriend bought me a turntable! NIIIIIIICCCCEEEEEE!
I'm really happy! She was listening at me for near a month looking on internet for infos and compare price etc.
She's faster then me and found one at her job! A coworker had one without use at home. It's a Technics SL-QD2, from 1986 and in prestine condition! The cables were still tie together in the orignal package! With I got a bunch of old LP to test drive my new aquisition. This is really nice! For now, I have a cheap preamp I bought at the electronic store for 10 bucks so I can plug it into my stereo system. Not the best thing ever but it works. The only problem it's the ground wire, since I don't have an amp I can't plug it in so there's a hum when the vinyls play. No big deal, I'm planning to get a better system soon! Maybe not a 10 000$ one but something with a amp and a preamp to get a nice sound. 

Since I'm young and unexperienced can some explains me what is the use of the weight? 
How can I clean up my vynils? I read some stuff about water and cloths.
I do I know that my cartridge and needle are still good?

Thanks for the upcoming answers!


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## 23cicero (Mar 25, 2008)

Congratulation Ti-Ron. And Happy Birthday! Seems like we both have seem pretty good musically inclined girlfriends:smile:

I'm not at all an expert on these things but I thought I'd comment on a couple of things:

-What do you mean by "the Weight"? You're not really clear in your last post. You can get a turntable "clamp" that weighs down and stabilizes you records but it's unclear what you're talking about. Or do you mean the counterweight that regulates the pressure of the stylus on the record?

-Is there something else that you can 'ground' your wire on? You might just be able to fasten it something around your preamp to take away the buzz while you look for a better preamp.

-Cleaning records: Be careful! If you're going to use water it must be _distilled_ water or it will harm your beloved records. If you don't want to pay a ton for an expensive record cleaning kit: There are quite a few sites on line that offer up good record cleaning solution recipes. Some combination of 80% distilled water, 20% Isopropyl alcohol and a fragment of mild soap is what I've seen suggested. But you can check for yourself online. For someone who has $10,000 invested in their equipment and record collection this might not the ideal method but it has worked fine for me.

You will need a good record cleaning brush as well as some type of carbon-fibre brush that removes the dust before you play. They're different types of brushes as they perform different functions.

-How do you know your cartridge needle are good? Well, listen first. It might be difficult to determine if you have a few problems with your preamp. One thing I would suggest is to make sure that your turntable is 'set-up' properly. Again, there's lots of information online that will guide you (here's one I just found: http://stereos.about.com/od/systemsetup/ss/Turntablesetup.htm).

Once you know that your turntable is set-up reasonably well then you can make a decision whether your components are "good" or not. If your turntable is not set up well that will affect your sound. Since you might have saved a bit of money on your turntable with your thoughtful girlfriend it might be worthwhile taking your turntable to some professional to give it a once over and set it up for you if you can find one locally who's not to expensive.

Hopefully, that helps a bit. There are probably some other forumites who know more about this than I do. Cheers. And good listening!


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Thanks alot 23cicero,
really helpfull, I'll read this link you just send me! I read my instructions manual and I found that this weight is a 45 rpm adaptor. Maybe read first and ask after can be apllied here! 

My preamp is only a little box with four RCA plug on it and a power cord, I'm not sure where I can ground it, sorry I'm not really good in electronic. I don't wanna try something that's goona broke my turntable.

Thanks again for all the infos, tonight I'll read as more as possible and work on that tomorrow morning! 

Good night!


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Hi guyz and gals, Still have some questions!! I've learn many things since yesterday night, but still some mystic terms I don't really understand.
What is the difference between moving magnet (MM) and moving coil (MC)? 
There's many words in the phono-langage!! :wave:


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## Pepper_Roni (May 29, 2008)

Wild Bill said:


> Just thought I'd chip in with the "techie" viewpoint!:smile:
> 
> Unscratched vinyl DOES sound better! There's a proven technical reason for this. The CD technology was kinda rushed to the market. When you convert an analogue signal to a digital one made up of "bits" representing ones and zeros, you end up with a waveform that's not smooth but rather kinda "bumpy". Think of drawing a sine wave but instead of a smooth pen line you have little rectangles side by side along the entire line.
> 
> ...


ya unfortunately cd's are limited to 44khz (well they can go as high as you want but there sold with that quality to work on all cd players). These days a good soundsystem can get you a 24bit signal at 192khz and that is freakin awesome. As for vinyl sounding better. Ive never heard a record.... my dads record player is broken . 

The way i see it is this. Ok so if theres anyone here that plays computer games knows that the moving image is measured in frames per second.... people will brag about getting over 300 FPS, but the human eye can only see under 85(or so i cant remember the number.) same goes for the human ear; it cant ear everything. So really.... the difference may be there..... but can you honestly tell the difference? I doubt it.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Pepper_Roni said:


> .... the difference may be there..... but can you honestly tell the difference? I doubt it.


If you mean can you hear the difference between a record (in great condition) and a cd? Absolutely! Of course that's with a good needle and turntable...


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Starbuck said:


> If you mean can you hear the difference between a record (in great condition) and a cd? Absolutely! Of course that's with a good needle and turntable...


+1 on that, the instruments are so clear and natural sounding! I bought a 180g record of Radiohead and seriously the sound is amazing, I A/B the CD and the vinyl and my friends and I raelly hear the difference. Maybe because we are all music freaks but seriously the sound is really more rich on the vinyl! I can't stop thinking how it will be when I'll finally bought a good amp and speakers!


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Starbuck said:


> If you mean can you hear the difference between a record (in great condition) and a cd? Absolutely! Of course that's with a good needle and turntable...


Yes, but is it a good difference?

I will preface this by stating that I've worked in a high-end audio store, so I've heard all kinds of gee whiz digital and analogue sound systems.

I love vinyl, and I love the warmth and immediacy (some) recorded music seems to have on vinyl, but in all honesty, a rinky-dink table plugged into a so-so preamp/amp played on mass market speakers isn't going to sound as good as the same setup with a digital front end. The real benefits of vinyl come after you've dropped some semi-serious coin on the rig. Also, you need to buy good vinyl. Those Salvation Army $1 discs aren't going to sound good on the very best of systems because they're scratched up and dirty as heck. The 180g high quality stuff like Ti-Ron's Radiohead album _will_ sound great, but then you have to take into account maintenance of the records and the table.


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## Vintage_Groove (Mar 4, 2008)

I posted this elsewhere, and it may help some folks out that are looking for affordable, used turntables, amps and such;

I was looking around for an affordable TT ($200 or so) and I discovered this guy's website. He lives north of Toronto.

He rebuilds turntables and other stereo equipement (vintage and otherwise) and everything seems very resonably priced (some TT at $100 or less):

http://www.warmcopper.com/

I went to visit him recently and he's a great guy, with a lot of nice stuff and his prices are all very good. I also like that he'll help with any issues the equipment may have after you buy it. 

If you contact him tell him you're from the Guitars Canada forum.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

Well I'm pricing myself out an upgrade:

http://www.rega.co.uk/html/p3-24.htm

http://www.sumikoaudio.net/sumikocartridges/prod_bluepointspecial.htm

My current cartridge got destroyed somehow. Thinking it might have been my nieces, touching things they shouldn't have. Either way I've been wanting to do an upgrade and now is probably the time.


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## Flash (Jan 18, 2010)

Im not sure if anyone posted a good site to buy vinyl yet but i like using www.soundstagedirect.com 

they run from out of the states, but it dosn't take too long to get to your door step


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

Flash said:


> Im not sure if anyone posted a good site to buy vinyl yet but i like using www.soundstagedirect.com
> 
> they run from out of the states, but it dosn't take too long to get to your door step


Nice to see pretty much everything being released on vinyl again. Just wish the prices weren't so outrageous. But I guess that's supply and demand.


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## Flash (Jan 18, 2010)

I like to use it for the ones i can't find in the stores. They have monthy sales for about 11% off if you sign up for their newsletter.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

*Cleaning*

Has anyone tried steam cleaning their real dirty vinyl?


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## crazydiamond (Dec 17, 2009)

hollowbody said:


> Yes, but is it a good difference?
> 
> I will preface this by stating that I've worked in a high-end audio store, so I've heard all kinds of gee whiz digital and analogue sound systems.
> 
> I love vinyl, and I love the warmth and immediacy (some) recorded music seems to have on vinyl, but in all honesty, a rinky-dink table plugged into a so-so preamp/amp played on mass market speakers isn't going to sound as good as the same setup with a digital front end. The real benefits of vinyl come after you've dropped some semi-serious coin on the rig. Also, you need to buy good vinyl. Those Salvation Army $1 discs aren't going to sound good on the very best of systems because they're scratched up and dirty as heck. The 180g high quality stuff like Ti-Ron's Radiohead album _will_ sound great, but then you have to take into account maintenance of the records and the table.


+1

Vinyl vs CD is subjective. I have heard really good vinyl playback and I have heard really good CD playback. I prefer CD since I had a hard time with inner groove distortion and paying premium prices for good vinyl. That's just me though. YMMV


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Jeff Flowerday said:


> Has anyone tried steam cleaning their real dirty vinyl?


Not steam cleaning. I wash mine with soft soap and water. Then I leave it to dry for a day or two.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

All this vinyl talk... Led to this.










Pro-Ject Debut III into a Pro-Ject Phono Box II USB Phono Preamp. Finally got a chance to play my lp's after close to 20 years. I'm not overwhelmingly impressed but it will do for now. It was a strange feeling buying a turntable in this day and age. But I'd rather pay for the turntable than buy a new copy of the same thing I have on vinyl.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Chito said:


> Not steam cleaning. I wash mine with soft soap and water. Then I leave it to dry for a day or two.


I do the same but I give it a final rinse in diistilled water. That way you don't get soap drying in the grooves.

Another old broadcasting trick is to mist the LP with distilled water before you play it, from a spray bottle. It quiets down a LOT of the hisses and pops from static electricity!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Wild Bill said:


> I do the same but I give it a final rinse in diistilled water. That way you don't get soap drying in the grooves.
> 
> Another old broadcasting trick is to mist the LP with distilled water before you play it, from a spray bottle. It quiets down a LOT of the hisses and pops from static electricity!


Been doing that for decades, and it works great. I suspect it also serves as a kind of heat dissipation as well. Not unlike the stuff that machinists spray on metal when drilling/milling. Useful to do since one of the many enemies of vinyl is friction-derived heat, which makes the vinyl softer and more susceptible to deformation within the grooves and simple wearing out.

The caveat is that you'll want to either dry th disc off or wait a bit before sticking it back into any paper sleeves, or else the sleeves start to wrinkle.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

Vinyl pass


here is a great story on the Ottawa Citizen about this...


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