# Is the retail music gear business that tough ?



## Gearhead88 (Nov 7, 2013)

I went to check and see if a foot switch I had on order had arrived , I had left a $30 deposit in August and had not heard back by phone on whether it had arrived . I did visit the store a couple of times since then and called them and got excuses. Not a big deal , I thought I'd give them a chance to get the order together , perhaps they needed to get some other items and make a larger order so it would be worth while for them . I checked back in October , still nothing , now I'm starting to suspect there is something up.

Another month or so passes .................. 

I've been working out of town so I'm unable to go to this store much recently but I have bought some items there several times previously , it is a handy location for me and near where I used to work . 

I'm on days off for the holiday season so I thought I'd go check and maybe buy some other stuff while there , after all , it is boxing week. 

The store inventory had been cleared out , the signage was still up and all of the stuff that was normally plastered on the windows was still there , a note was taped to the inside of the door. The note stated they were restructuring and renovating , students will be informed of classes , which were to be rescheduled.

Not the same story I got when I called the head office / main branch to see what was going on. I was told they are closed , gone under , finished. 


I feel bad for the people that may have paid for a bunch of lessons in advance or left larger deposits than the $30 I lost.


So , is it that tough to survive as a business , selling music equipment and services ?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Any business is tough if you dont have business sense.

Pity about screwing over the community though.

I think one of our stores is almost done, curious to see how that plays out.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Depends what you sell, and how you feel obliged to price it. Quite frankly, bricks and mortar music stores have been under the same sort of assault from online retailers that independent booksellers have been. I suppose the well-established places with a strong brand presence are in less trouble, but I doubt that even L&M could start up these days as a shop-in store. People can buy so much at ridiculously low prices these days from online retailers, and will have a much wider choice than any single shop-in store can provide.

So yeah, its tough.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Agreed Mark. I remember 10 years ago when I started working at the music store I still work at now during Christmas, it was insane....those days are now gone and most of it can be directly attributed to on-line sales. Progress has it's casualties.



mhammer said:


> Depends what you sell, and how you feel obliged to price it. Quite frankly, bricks and mortar music stores have been under the same sort of assault from online retailers that independent booksellers have been. I suppose the well-established places with a strong brand presence are in less trouble, but I doubt that even L&M could start up these days as a shop-in store. People can buy so much at ridiculously low prices these days from online retailers, and will have a much wider choice than any single shop-in store can provide.
> 
> So yeah, its tough.


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

nonreverb said:


> Agreed Mark. I remember 10 years ago when I started working at the music store I still work at now during Christmas, it was insane....those days are now gone and most of it can be directly attributed to on-line sales. Progress has it's casualties.


Yet most canadian music stores, even the bigger and more established ones, are barely present on the web. Many have only a Facebook page or a more-or-less static page with links to brands and manufacturers that they carry. It's almost 2015 and Long and McQuade is the only one that comes to mind that has a transactional website worth a damn.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

pattste said:


> Yet most canadian music stores, even the bigger and more established ones, are barely present on the web. Many have only a Facebook page or a more-or-less static page with links to brands and manufacturers that they carry. It's almost 2015 and _*Long and McQuade is the only one that comes to mind that has a transactional website worth a damn.*_


Compared to the big guys in the USA their website is still a babe. Their search feature is one of the poorest I have ever encountered and I am sure they lose business because of it.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

Axe music is a very good website.
la music is on par with the U.S. sites. 

But both have very poor service inside the store.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> Compared to the big guys in the USA their website is still a babe. Their search feature is one of the poorest I have ever encountered and I am sure they lose business because of it.


I use L&M's site all of the time for pricing info as they are the most accessible and are in Canadian dollars - never have had a problem.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I deliberately give some business to the two closest retailers. Both direct a lot of people my way for lessons, and I feel obliged to return the favour. I like both stores, as far as small town stores go they are pretty good. However, I don't expect same week service like I can get through Amazon and other online sources. 

It is what it is.

Peace, Mooh.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

smorgdonkey said:


> I use L&M's site all of the time for pricing info as they are the most accessible and are in Canadian dollars - never have had a problem.


I'm on it probably 4 times a week and I've never had any problems either. I like Cosmo Music's site too.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

You have to wonder if, 10 years hence, the only places to still be here, in bricks-and-mortar form, will be vintage/used-gear places. A casual flip through _Vintage Guitar _magazine shows that many of them also do on-line sales. BUT...some of them deal in high-end pieces where shipping things to people to try out before purchase eats away at the profit margin. As well, folks can feel relatively comfortable ordering an American Standard Strat in the colour of their choice, but may be less comfortable ordering something Japanese from the early 70's, or a '63 Valco amp, sight unseen.

But I think Budda's earlier comment about any business being tough if you don't have business sense is spot on. Just because someone likes music gear, and likes musicians, doesn't mean they necessarily know how to run a business....whether bricks-and-mortar or on-line.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

I think where online sales excel is catering to those who do not live in urban areas. I don't think that retail will disappear in time. I will never order a guitar online unless its discontinued. There will always be those who have to try before they buy and there will always be the need for service. The independant or boutique shops can survive if they can offer what the big box stores cannot. I'll buy a guitar at L&M, but there's no way they are servicing or modding it. It's like this; Everyone in my area cried "game over" when the wal-marts were allowed in. Nothing changed. In fact, I think other businesses actually thrived around them.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

The big problem I see is that even with exchange rates, US prices are competitive. Worse though, is that we've become a society of wanting things "right now" and with places like Amazon or Musician's Friend shipping within the week or even days in some cases, unless stores can keep everything is stock all the time, they lose.
One of the most frustrating things is when a brand new item comes out, the US gets it first. We inevitably get requests for it but have to wait due to the silly way distribution works in this country. I always say that Canada gets sloppy seconds as we never get new product at the same time as the US.



mhammer said:


> You have to wonder if, 10 years hence, the only places to still be here, in bricks-and-mortar form, will be vintage/used-gear places. A casual flip through _Vintage Guitar _magazine shows that many of them also do on-line sales. BUT...some of them deal in high-end pieces where shipping things to people to try out before purchase eats away at the profit margin. As well, folks can feel relatively comfortable ordering an American Standard Strat in the colour of their choice, but may be less comfortable ordering something Japanese from the early 70's, or a '63 Valco amp, sight unseen.
> 
> But I think Budda's earlier comment about any business being tough if you don't have business sense is spot on. Just because someone likes music gear, and likes musicians, doesn't mean they necessarily know how to run a business....whether bricks-and-mortar or on-line.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I guess you're right, although that's a problem somewhat unique to Canadian retailers. I am constantly surprised by the manner in which I can try to look up a manufacturer information site on a new product I see reviewed (and never ran into UNTIL I saw it reviewed in a magazine), and Seetwater, or Musician's Friend is already selling it. Indeed, in Canada, if you want to know what's out that's new, your better off checking the sites of the major American on-line retailers, than going into Canadian stores or flipping through magazines (which we _also_ tend to get later).

But even US retailers that do have quicker access to new products have suffered. _Mars Music _closed, and I understand that a number of _Guitar Center _outlets closed as well.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Mooh said:


> I deliberately give some business to the two closest retailers. Both direct a lot of people my way for lessons, and I feel obliged to return the favour. I like both stores, as far as small town stores go they are pretty good. However, I don't expect same week service like I can get through Amazon and other online sources.
> 
> It is what it is.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


Our family always try's to support local businesses. But I do expect them to provide at least as good service as online retailers. I believe people should support local business, but I also believe local businesses should earn and appreciate business. It's that disconnect that I think is the demise of small business. If it was run improperly, it is vulnerable to competition. If not by online retailers, then by upstart businesses. Or by simply turning ppl off from their industry. So. I often see small businesses going under as Darwinian.

Back to the op, i think the challenges to music stores can be summed up in 1 word: flakes.
often music stores are opened by flakes with little business savvy. They rely on employees who are often on the low end of the market...ie retail, so managing them, loss prevention etc can be challenging. And their csutomer base may have a large population of customers with limited cash flow who can be susceptible to microeconomic fluctuations ie young people, musicians. Lots of stereotyping, I know, but certainly true in many cases. It's just isn't the same as selling BMW's.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

"Flakes" is maybe too strong a word, but I get where you are coming from. I would categorize such persons as individuals whose enthusiasm for all things musical may eclipse their business judgment.

It's not enough to like, and maybe know something about, music gear. It's not enough to like hanging out with musicians. And it's not enough to like the idea of owning a store where you're the boss and nobody else can push you around. I'm sure there are plenty of businesses that go under - for example, restaurants - because the business owner likes and appreciates the goods or services they intend to sell, likes the people who appreciate their best efforts, and likes the idea of operating a business for themselves, rather than working for someone else.

But that's not always enough. Both Diablo and nonreverb have underscored some factors that _must_ be attended to by any music-store owner in Canada, and that may well be unique to that particular kind of business.

There is a small-scale store in a strip mall near us. I wouldn't have expected them to survive as long as they have, but unless they are dealing cocaine out the backdoor, they have survived, and even thrived, reasonably well for 9 years now. 

So what's their business model? They cater to the novice. They have a couple of rooms for giving lessons in, have a thriving business in lessons, and carry the sort of gear that a beginner would look for. So, budget models from Fender, Cort, Washburn. Smaller solid-state amps from Fender and Marshall. The odd exotic pedal from EHX, but mostly the standards from standard brands. It's not the sort of store I would shop in (Despite being only a few blocks away, I enter it maybe 3 times a year, if that), but they have an identified clientele, and they wisely do not attempt to go beyond that; no pretense at being one of the big boys. Yeah, their prices are not fabulous, but a dad whose 12 year-old son or daughter wants to take up guitar is not going to be shopping on-line for something they don't understand, and have no experience in buying (or returning). They're going to come into the store, ask their kid "What do you think about that one there?", and buy them something to use for lessons. And the $2500 latest and greatest is not going to be hanging on the wall waiting for a buyer to stroll in one of these years.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

You bet it is. I would think that most smaller music stores would think they had a good day if L&M were knocking on their door thinking of buying them out. Music lessons will eventually be their biggest source of income if it isn't already. I hope it never comes to pass but it seems to me that there is less interest from kids today to want to learn to play any instrument. Even with my own grandchildren, I've noticed they hardly come into my music room any more where I have guitars and keyboards sitting around for them to play. They did ask to play them at one time but have now completely lost interest. They seem more intent on playing with their laptops. 

As for supporting my local music stores. I don't feel obligated to do so as I remember the times I tried to trade in some used music gear only to be offered what I considered to be a very low trade in on a new piece of gear. I now look for that gear online. One example: I traded in a 1000 W stereo Yamaha power amp in very good condition for $300. My price when I bought it was $1200. My choice I know but it brought the price of my new guitar down to were I thought I could afford it. Still, with that kind of service, I don't feel the need to support that store. When the on-line stores figure out how to offer free shipping and still offer better prices than your local music store, watch out, that will be the end. It's already happening.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Diablo said:


> Our family always try's to support local businesses. But I do expect them to provide at least as good service as online retailers. I believe people should support local business, but I also believe local businesses should earn and appreciate business. It's that disconnect that I think is the demise of small business. If it was run improperly, it is vulnerable to competition. If not by online retailers, then by upstart businesses. Or by simply turning ppl off from their industry. So. I often see small businesses going under as Darwinian.
> 
> .


Not possible with everything. Example: I wanted 2 identical but specific Levys guitar straps. Online, I could get them within days. At the store, it was 3 weeks for them to get their order. Tried the same thing with one specific banjo strap from a different store. It took them months.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I've watched so many new music stores come & go in the Edmonton area in the last 15 years. I make a point now to go into these little stores, take a good look around and buy the strings/cords/what ever small items I need rather than ordering them online.

As far as buying actual guitars go, I don't like buying a guitar I haven't played.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Scotty said:


> It's like this; Everyone in my area cried "game over" when the wal-marts were allowed in. Nothing changed. In fact, I think other businesses actually thrived around them.


Interesting. I see it happening exactly the way that 'everyone' cried that it would...only slower. Big changes don't tend to happen over night and the music retail scene hasn't (nor has any retail segment) but they have changed dramatically over the period of time since the 'wal-marts' were allowed in, and I don't see any 'thriving' in any of it.


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## Option1 (May 26, 2012)

Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with Scotty's Walmart assessment. Remember back to when there were a myriad of small stores catering for all different types of merchandise (the bookshop scenario mentioned earlier in the thread would be just one of the line of stores along a street). Now days, far fewer shops along the street. Instead a bunch of big box/franchise stores generally conglomerated in a mall, with far more limited range of choice.

Interestingly, going in to L&M here in Ottawa each time seems to see a reduced line of choices. Less change on the website, but the store itself seems to have a shrinking range. Just a completely unscientific observation/feeling on my part, so could be wrong. 

Neil


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## JCM50 (Oct 5, 2011)

When I was a teen, in Ottawa, Steve's was my favourite music store, back when Wayne, Kevin and Dan were always there to help out. I bought a LOT of gear there but things changed there. Some of the staff changed and the Manager didn't treat long time customers like me very well and I started to look elsewhere. 

That's when I discovered Lauzon Music. A great store and great customer service. Then, over the years, more and more stores opened and I went to Steve's less and less aside from going in to say hi to Kevin every once in a while. We now have two Long&Mcquade stores, Fleet sound, St John Music and a Kijiji used gear site that has TONs of nice stuff.

I do try to shop locally but most of the time, like with pickups, the models I need are not in stock and wait times are 4-6 weeks, sometimes more. In a day and age when the customer can get something like a mass produced DiMarzio faster than one of the most established retail stores in Ottawa and Montreal, there's something wrong and a lot of times, its because of weak distributors that don't hold enough stock.

The retail music business is very tough and very competitive. I do hope that the Canadian retailers and distributors get their act together quick, because time is running out.

The thing is, if you are a retailer, carry the full line of accessories, not partial lines. Yes, that means more overhead in inventory but when customers come to your store and you're always missing the one thing they need, that customer will eventually stop coming to the store and look elsewhere. The other thing is get a decent web store going along with the brick and mortar store (Steve's site is the worst) and again, make sure that your selection is the best.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Yes and no. Bricks and mortar stores of many types - not just music stores - have complained bitterly in recent years, that lots of people come to the store to look at items and check them out...and then go and order them online from somewhere else, where they found a cheaper price.

Carrying a full line so that people can do more extensive window-shopping isn't necessarily a great strategy.

But at the same time, I think it feeds into precisely what you suggested: if the stores I visit don't carry stuff, then why should I go there? But why should they spend the money to carry inventory if it only results in me using them for a tryout and taking my business elsewhere? Vicious cycle, if there ever was one.


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## JCM50 (Oct 5, 2011)

mhammer said:


> Yes and no. Bricks and mortar stores of many types - not just music stores - have complained bitterly in recent years, that lots of people come to the store to look at items and check them out...and then go and order them online from somewhere else, where they found a cheaper price.


Out of respect for the local shops, I never do that. Most of the time, if you actually talk to the sales people (seems like most people have forgotten how to talk, person to person), they will match the pricing or do their best to make it as close as possible.



mhammer said:


> Carrying a full line so that people can do more extensive window-shopping isn't necessarily a great strategy.


If your prices are competitive, it is the best strategy, if not the only one.
If you can't price those items competitively, don't sell them. End of story.



mhammer said:


> But at the same time, I think it feeds into precisely what you suggested: if the stores I visit don't carry stuff, then why should I go there? But why should they spend the money to carry inventory if it only results in me using them for a tryout and taking my business elsewhere? Vicious cycle, if there ever was one.


Its not a vicious cycle. Why do people shop online? They don't have to drive to a store only to see that they don't have the thing they need in stock. That's where the website for that store comes in. 

If the pricing is right and the selection is there, there's no reason for people to go elsewhere. Add the option to order online and pickup in store or have it delivered... It just takes time and effort.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

mhammer said:


> "Flakes" is maybe too strong a word, but I get where you are coming from. I would categorize such persons as individuals whose enthusiasm for all things musical may eclipse their business judgment.
> 
> It's not enough to like, and maybe know something about, music gear. It's not enough to like hanging out with musicians. And it's not enough to like the idea of owning a store where you're the boss and nobody else can push you around. I'm sure there are plenty of businesses that go under - for example, restaurants - because the business owner likes and appreciates the goods or services they intend to sell, likes the people who appreciate their best efforts, and likes the idea of operating a business for themselves, rather than working for someone else.
> 
> ...


Your local music store sounds a bit like Mojo Music in Oakville. Mostly novice gear, nothing too pricy, clean and cheerful but mostly focussed on affluent suburban teens and tweens who's parents take them there for lessons and rock camp.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

The Ottawa L&M is a strange beast. When you look at the L&M website Deal Centre- most stores have some guitars etc-the Ottawa store has had the same six lame pedals there for years. You never see the used guitars as I suspect the employees grab them first.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

JCM50 said:


> Out of respect for the local shops, I never do that. Most of the time, if you actually talk to the sales people (seems like most people have forgotten how to talk, person to person), they will match the pricing or do their best to make it as close as possible.





JCM50 said:


> If your prices are competitive, it is the best strategy, if not the only one.
> If you can't price those items competitively, don't sell them. End of story.


That's fine if you're competing with the store down the street. These days, people roll in demanding we price match stuff on Musician's friend and other outlets in the US. It's simply not possible to do this. We pay more wholesale in Canada than the US and that truly is the end of story....



JCM50 said:


> Its not a vicious cycle. Why do people shop online? They don't have to drive to a store only to see that they don't have the thing they need in stock. That's where the website for that store comes in.
> 
> If the pricing is right and the selection is there, there's no reason for people to go elsewhere. Add the option to order online and pickup in store or have it delivered... It just takes time and effort.


I agree that the online option is severely lacking up here however, as Mhammer states it is impractical and potentially reckless to carry EVERYTHING anybody would ever want at a music store there's not enough capital or space for that matter to accomplish this....it's simply not possible. Maybe 35 or 40 years ago when there was a fraction of the variety of gear available, stores could stock a higher percentage....but not now.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

I'll tell you what my experience buying something online from the U.S.

Unless its 50% cheaper than Canada, it's not worth ordering. 
After shipping/brokerage fees/taxes, total shipped to the door price is usually only 10-20% cheaper. 

A semi skilled haggler can negotiate that kind of discount if you have cash in hand. 

I've been to many retailers and tried to haggle by using the "price match from this website" 
If It's a US website........I get the big F.U.
Because of the reason I just mentioned above. A good salesman will know this, and try to explain it to customers. 

Mind you I've had very good results with Axe music/long and mcquade/L.A. Music/Cosmo price matching or beating. 

Simply ask, "Beat this price by 30%?"
they usually laugh, and say no, then check their cost, and at least match the price, or beat it by 10% 

I'd say most of the time, no one asks for a discount, and only compare sticker price and forget the shipping/taxes/brokerage costs


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

nonreverb said:


> That's fine if you're competing with the store down the street. These days, people roll in demanding we price match stuff on Musician's friend and other outlets in the US. It's simply not possible to do this. We pay more wholesale in Canada than the US and that truly is the end of story....


Yes, even retail sales have gone somewhat to the global market. I just bought two items, both from the USA. Why? The price was not only better but much better in the range for 30-50% better including the exchange and shipping.


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

Is the retail music gear business that tough? A good question and for all matters it probably is, but being a frequent shopper who was soaked on a monthly basis during the "wonder years" on the west coast of Newfoundland before Long & McQuade started advertising online according to my local shops... I could honestly care less. The prices are still high local and the service is awful, I've gotten the run around more times trying to shop local I should be an Olympic runner by now. Want something ordered they don't have in stock, be prepared for at least 6 weeks of bugging the sales staff to order it and even then it's probably not going to come in... by then you could have bought more gear out of the gas money and time off work. Flaws, dings, dents, etc. are common on "new out of the box" guitars... rentals are hung back on the wall as new. From strings to amps to guitars and so on if you're not doing your research online be prepared to pay no less than 30% over L&M's prices. Thankfully since I've learned that these aren't common occurences after my first trip to the Avalon 99% of my new gear purchases have either been from Long & McQuade or online sources like Bestbuy, Electricmojo, Tapestry, etc. and I haven't had an issue worth complaining about since. I pay a fair price for gear that looks like it should and sounds like it should, along with hassle free service to back it. If the local retail shops were to straighten up their act I could see myself going back but as for now it's just not worth the hassel or the headache. But I doubt it. I have no interest in arguing over ridiculous prices, so when I get for instance a price of $3300 +tax for a Gibson Advanced Jumbo that is posted on Long & Mcquade for $2475 at the time... my stomach turns and I buy it elsewhere. This probably doesn't apply to most users off of the island but I can't help but repeat the OP's question, for the Corner Brook shops... is the retail music gear business that tough? Probably, but they only have themselves to blame.


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

Aside from the import and shipping costs inherent when one buys online, a buyer must also ask himself what other costs are incurred if an item is not as ordered, or damaged enroute, or is not prime quality to begin with. I bought my adult daughter an Ibanez bass from an Alberta supplier and gave it to her wrapped and unopened for Christmas a few years ago. I heard later that her music teacher told her that the instrument was obviously stored in an unheated warehouse as the frets were not flush with the neck, which was warped in a way that wouldn't remain straight despite repair attempts. If I had taken her into a local music shop and we tried the same model together, it may have cost us few dollars more, but I would have had a chance to check it out, and if we were dissatisfied within 30 days we could have returned it. Instead we have a useless instrument two thousand miles from the seller, at my daughter's home 200 miles away from me. I learned a valuable lesson about buying an item unseen from a distant supplier. It's a gamble.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

smorgdonkey said:


> Interesting. I see it happening exactly the way that 'everyone' cried that it would...only slower. Big changes don't tend to happen over night and the music retail scene hasn't (nor has any retail segment) but they have changed dramatically over the period of time since the 'wal-marts' were allowed in, and I don't see any 'thriving' in any of it.


Perhaps that depends on the community. If you look at a town near me where its retail exploded within a few years. For a town that was only about 10,000 people about 5 years ago (which has now doubled) the retail stores exploded with it. Walmart in this case appears to be the anchor that pulled many other merchants to it. The plaza is full and there appears to be another development coming. I suspect commercial property values spiked and I haven't seen any negative effect as of yet as far as small shops struggling. None of them really compete with wally world. The only thing struggling is Target, which I'm not sure is going to take off in Canada anyway. I'm not a supporter of Wally-town BTW...cant stand it, won't shop there for squat. There's nothing for me there


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## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

I'm generally surprised at the number of music stores there are in most areas. I love them, but it seems there's more than is necessary/can survive. Are people really buying that much gear/instruments anymore? 

Most large stores are mainly guitar-oriented and I don't think kids are buying guitars in the numbers they did in the 70s-90s, even the 00s.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Like others here I prefer to try gear before I buy it.
Things like picks & strings I can see getting online, but I don't.
Although for some varieties I like, I may need to start doing that-especially short scale bass strings.
But even something like straps I like checking in person--I'm picky about them--I like liable leather straps that will mold to my shoulder--and so many are not--so I want to see it in person.
And instruments, amps & pedals I like to try out first.
Although I have had a couple of pedals that arrived in the mail that I hadn't tried before--but those were ones I won (here actually)

I don't have a lot of money to spare, so I like to make sure of what I'm getting.

So I really want brick & mortar stores to stick around--especially guitar/music stores.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Krelf said:


> Aside from the import and shipping costs inherent when one buys online, a buyer must also ask himself what other costs are incurred if an item is not as ordered, or damaged enroute, or is not prime quality to begin with. I bought my adult daughter an Ibanez bass from an Alberta supplier and gave it to her wrapped and unopened for Christmas a few years ago. I heard later that her music teacher told her that the instrument was obviously stored in an unheated warehouse as the frets were not flush with the neck, which was warped in a way that wouldn't remain straight despite repair attempts. If I had taken her into a local music shop and we tried the same model together, it may have cost us few dollars more, but I would have had a chance to check it out, and if we were dissatisfied within 30 days we could have returned it. Instead we have a useless instrument two thousand miles from the seller, at my daughter's home 200 miles away from me. I learned a valuable lesson about buying an item unseen from a distant supplier. It's a gamble.


Its tough for consumers, because for every story like yours about an online retailer, theres a t least one like this about a local retailer: http://www.guitarscanada.com/showthread.php?68135-Boxing-day-deals&p=593838#post593838
there isn't a clear answer.

for me, my business is the local guys to lose. meaning, I give them a chance because its my preference to buy locally, but really don't have any loyalty if theres any flakiness or gouging involved. I will at times pay more for "service", but only if its applicable and valuable. For me, a pedal is a commodity. No service involved. I don't even try them out in stores. if Im picking a guitar off the wall, again, no real service involved, other than I appreciate that they have a storefront to maintain to allow me to see/feel/hear the guitar, so there is *some* value there. If im making a custom order, which almost never happens, then again, I could see there being some service in that as well.
But otherwise, for an experienced guitar buyer, I don't know what "service" really means. Theres no regulation/certification in the industry. No proof that the sales person has any more knowledge than myself, just opinion, and often ill-informed ones. 
I shouldn't have to subsidize the service costs for some 12 yr old buying their first guitar and selecting from a handful that range from $349-$379. that thinks theyre making a monumental decision in their quest to instantly sound like Dimebag Darrell, but didn't do any research over the web.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

nonreverb said:


> That's fine if you're competing with the store down the street. These days, people roll in demanding we price match stuff on Musician's friend and other outlets in the US. It's simply not possible to do this. We pay more wholesale in Canada than the US and that truly is the end of story....


if this is true, then its long overdue for retailers to stand up to their suppliers.
Its pretty hard to understand how Joe blow in Canada can buy something from a retailer in the US, pay book pricing on low volume shipping, currency exchange, customs etc and get it for the same or often less than what a retailer here pays. A retailer here should be making at least 10% or more simply in efficiencies of scale.
this problem isn't going away for retailers here anytime soon.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

One of the things that a bricks-and-mortar retailer has to grapple with is that they need to be in a decent location, with available parking, in a municipality of size appropriate to the range of products they intend to carry. And that costs more money. The online retailer can stick their warehouse out in the middle of nowhere, where land/rent is cheap and plentiful, and where they don't have to pay anyone to plow the snowbanks so customers can park. They could be in a town of 1500, because their customer base is not in town, but "out there". They don't have to have separate warehouse and showroom space because it's ALL warehouse, with the exception of the folks taking orders via phone or web, and the shipping and accounting people. And while I'm confident that the requisite storage, show, and parking-space for a music superstore could be gotten cheaply in Kincardine or Chatham (NB or ON, take your pick), the walk-in traffic is not going to justify that outlay.

What is killing music stores is exactly what killed Eaton's and is presently killing Sears: the world changed in a way that trumped the traditional department store, and rendered it unable to compete.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

mhammer said:


> What is killing music stores is exactly what killed Eaton's and is presently killing Sears: the world changed in a way that trumped the traditional department store, and they didn't figure out how to adapt with it.


Fixed. I think you are too sympathetic to 2 companys that were dinosaurs with tunnel vision. the world changes for all businesses. good ones with strong leaders adapt, survive or even thrive. One only needs to look at Apples comeback story. Or Mcdonalds attempts to re-invent itself and keep pace with current trends without disenfranchising loyal customers.
there hasn't been anything cool about Sears in 40 years that would appeal to anyone under 50, with their Jacklyn Smith and Kenny rogers fashion fashion collections, and shitty house brands. look, they still carry "Delta Burkes" fashion line...talk about being out of date and irrelevant...who under the age of 40 even knows who or what the fuck a Delta Burke is? if youre going to cater to fat people, fine, at least use a celebritys name from the past 2 decades of pop culture. Pretty sure Adele or Melissa Mccarthy are available. Even 50 yr olds want to think theyre staying trendy these days. They haven't all given up on their lives. isn't 50 the new 30? 
: http://www.sears.com/clothing-shoes...461571?sbf=Brand&sbv=Swimsuits by Delta Burke f-me. 
its basically an over priced bottom feeder that's trying to compete with Wal mart for the lowest common denominator in the retail segment. not to mention the quality in their tools and appliances have gone down significantly over the years. Im no rocket surgeon, but even I can tell what a bad strategy they have. they should just rename themselves: "Sears: the store for grannies and unstylish obese americans (but we're probably the only big store in your town)"
It was like it was being run by this guy:


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

the wife bought me (online) a beautiful tri-cone resonator for christmas years ago. Christmas day, whole family there, I open my surprise gift and I look at this thing and I see a huge crack all the way through the heel of the neck joint. I'm thinking shipping damage, it's got to go back, wonder where she go it? and She just happens to have my slide with her and obviously I'm expected to give everybody a tune on my new guitar that I'm looking at in horror. She's confused now, doesn't under stand what's wrong with me. I tune it up and go to play it (cause I've got to play it, crack or no crack) when I realize that there's no bridge, it's totally missing. It was not a good moment in history. This guitar must have been a defect return (they had later stolen the bridge from) that somehow got shipped out by mistake. 
We shipped it back after christmas & got another one but the memories were already made if you know what I mean. It was a total train wreck. 
That cured us both of ordering guitars online.

I've also worked on guitars that friends have gotten a screaming deal on (online) and I'm pretty much convinced that any guitars that arrive at retail stores so bad that setup would be take some serious time are shipped back to the supplier and sold online. 

Are there any online retailers that actually run through setup before shipping out a new guitar??


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Ya, in the states and maybe cosmo?

My thing with "i show up and they dont have it" - we have phones, pick one up. The staff *may* lie yes, but if it saves you a $10 drive then isn't it worth it? When i got calls, i looked or asked someone who would know. Im aware that doesnt work 100% of the time, but come on.

Im curious to see how it plays out. I try to buy most of my stuff used regardless: i cant afford those stickers...


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I frequent a hi-fi board and many posters lament that there is nowhere left in their city to go and listen to equipment - equipment they are fully planning on auditioning locally and then purchasing from the cheapest ID company. They don't seem to understand cause/effect. 

We are lucky. We are living at the end of the age of 'being able to touch crap before you buy it'. In 10 years time, I can't imagine any b/m stores still being around. They just can't go on being the free testing pad for everyone's on-line purchases. Me, I buy lots from my local stores. Little things, big things. I have them order what I could order myself. I accept the low trade-in prices. I'm selfishly trying to perpetuate the tactile shopping experience as long as possible. If I was half my age, I probably wouldn't bother, because the war is already lost. Hopefully, by the time there is only the internet and Walmart selling guitars, I will be done buying and it won't matter.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Budda said:


> Ya, in the states and maybe cosmo?
> 
> * My thing with "i show up and they dont have it" - we have phones, pick one up. The staff *may* lie yes, but if it saves you a $10 drive then isn't it worth it? When i got calls, i looked or asked someone who would know. Im aware that doesnt work 100% of the time, but come on.*
> 
> Im curious to see how it plays out. I try to buy most of my stuff used regardless: i cant afford those stickers...


theres a certain irony...people have never been more attached to their phones than ever. and yet they seem afraid to actually speak into one.
I agree, sometimes the best thing to do is phone the store, give them the sku from the website and ask them to check their inventory or even hold one for you until you get there. I did this for a last minute gift for my father in law on the morning of the 24th this year, so I wouldn't have to drive amongst the other last minute shoppers for potentially nothing. 

but I really don't get the pity party for B&M stores.
lets be clear, its them that have the advantage, NOT online retailers, because they have an opportunity to make a real connection with their community. Online retailers are commodity brokers, nothing more. it only takes seconds to hop to another website. but a good realtionshp with a local store could last years. if a local store wants to be an commodity broker (and eventually lose that battle and cry foul), that's their choice. But by providing crappy service, crappy selection and crappy pricing, that's essentially what they've become, and they've only themselves to blame. consumers leave you not because the website attracted them, but because you didn't retain them. its not much different than in relationships...a girl usually doesn't leave a guy because a better looking rich guy came along. she left him because he was a jerk, or didn't pay attention to her, took her for granted/didn't make any effort, blah, blah, blah ie didn't see a future together.

whens the last time local music stores got engaged with their local community? reached out to schools? participated in parades, festivals, churches or other community events? had open houses with incentives for the neighborhood to come check them out? gave a couple free lessons with the purchase of new instruments in order to keep traffic flowing through the store and increase sales of higher margin products? Theres probably many other things I havent thought of, because im just a nobody on the internet. if you make people seek you out, then you risk them seeking out others as well. get in their face!! A business has to see all this as part of their overall investment, not just rent, utilities and stock. it needs to be seen as a line item on their capex every month. penny wise, pound foolish. if you aren't doing this, fuck off and die, so a Starbucks can open up in the business space youre wasting. They seem to know how to happily hose customers on a regular basis and keep them coming back for more without whining about prices.
I know some stores do some of these things, but few are very aggressive or consistent with it. store owners could learn a few things from the drug dealers they buy their weed from, as theyre certainly better marketers.

and that, gents, is likely my last rant of 2014.
Peace and love to all, and have a happy and safe NYE!
Lars


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Here is an example of an online store in the USA and L & M in Canada. This is comparing wireless microphones.

USA - 126 items starting at $20.00 ------- L & M - 19 items starting at $195.00 (one was a lighting bar and one was a speaker stand) 

USA - 20-40-60 items per page -------------- L & M - 18 items per page max with no choice to expand

I could go on but the search features and choices on the USA website are light years ahead of L & M.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> Here is an example of an online store in the USA and L & M in Canada. This is comparing wireless microphones.
> 
> USA - 126 items starting at $20.00 ------- L & M - 19 items starting at $195.00 (one was a lighting bar and one was a speaker stand)
> 
> ...


why do you name L&M specifically but not the US site? 
have you also looked at availability? ive googled many things online that takes me to a musician friends site only to see "OOS" or "Discontinued".

next time post actual links to corroborate your points.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Diablo said:


> why do you name L&M specifically but not the US site?
> have you also looked at availability? ive googled many things online that takes me to a musician friends site only to see "OOS" or "Discontinued".
> 
> next time post actual links to corroborate your points.


As far as Googling things, Google doesn't remove things from their site. So if an item is discontinued, that is not MF's or any other retailer's fault. That fault lies with Google. I am sure you know that. However, at least MF tells you it is discontinued. L & M would not.

Why do you want to know a specific company? Many of the USA companies are similar. Don't you believe me?


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> Here is an example of an online store in the USA and L & M in Canada. This is comparing wireless microphones.
> 
> USA - 126 items starting at $20.00 ------- L & M - 19 items starting at $195.00 (one was a lighting bar and one was a speaker stand)
> 
> ...


Such a busy life...wicked search skills.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> As far as Googling things, Google doesn't remove things from their site. So if an item is discontinued, that is not MF's or any other retailer's fault. That fault lies with Google. I am sure you know that. However, at least MF tells you it is discontinued. L & M would not.
> 
> Why do you want to know a specific company? Many of the USA companies are similar. Don't you believe me?


Lol...why do I want to know a specific company?? Steadly, you're very trying at times.
ffs, what have you go to hide?
no, I don't "believe you", why should I? I have no idea who you are, aside from some guy who walks the thin line of trolling on occasion, and doesn't like to back up his own assertions with facts then plays coy.
you say "many" companies are similar....how do we know that if you can't furnish even 1? maybe "none"are. So let's starts with just 1, please.
.if you aren't going to name the U.S. company, then Why name the canadian one?
Your lack of credibility aside, you're probably right:the best American website probably beats the best canadian one. Shouldn't come as a surprise. 
- - - Updated - - -



smorgdonkey said:


> Such a busy life...wicked search skills.


...but astoundingly poor copy and paste skills (of links).


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Diablo said:


> whens the last time local music stores got engaged with their local community? reached out to schools? participated in parades, festivals, churches or other community events? had open houses with incentives for the neighborhood to come check them out? gave a couple free lessons with the purchase of new instruments in order to keep traffic flowing through the store and increase sales of higher margin products? Theres probably many other things I havent thought of, because im just a nobody on the internet. if you make people seek you out, then you risk them seeking out others as well. get in their face!! A business has to see all this as part of their overall investment, not just rent, utilities and stock. it needs to be seen as a line item on their capex every month. penny wise, pound foolish. if you aren't doing this, fuck off and die, so a Starbucks can open up in the business space youre wasting. They seem to know how to happily hose customers on a regular basis and keep them coming back for more without whining about prices.
> I know some stores do some of these things, but few are very aggressive or consistent with it. store owners could learn a few things from the drug dealers they buy their weed from, as theyre certainly better marketers.


I know my local L&M puts on free clinics, has free guitar set up days, has supplied PA for local festivals, etc. I've attended quite a few of their L&M University things. Get to listen to Simon Jared or Don Alder for free? And then get to pick their brains later? What has your internet company done for you lately, besides undercut the b&m's. And of course, anyone can attend the L&M stuff, even those buying everything on line. Won't last forever though.

Oh yea, my local L&M also employs musicians, friends of mine that I can go to for help and advice. Best Buy? Not so much. I couldn't even explain to the girl at the front counter what string gauge was, when they mistakenly sent me the wrong ones (being as they don't know what gauge is, I can see why they did that).

I suspect you wouldn't be so loyal to Starbucks either, if Amazon could deliver you a hot cup in 10 minutes with one of their heliochoppers. Stay connected with your plumber, electrician, HVAC guy, etc. Those are the guys that won't be replace by ID's, unless you can send your house to Amazon.


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> I know my local L&M puts on free clinics, has free guitar set up days, has supplied PA for local festivals, etc. I've attended quite a few of their L&M University things. Get to listen to Simon Jared or Don Alder for free? And then get to pick their brains later? What has your internet company done for you lately, besides undercut the b&m's. And of course, anyone can attend the L&M stuff, even those buying everything on line. Won't last forever though.
> 
> Oh yea, my local L&M also employs musicians, friends of mine that I can go to for help and advice. Best Buy? Not so much. I couldn't even explain to the girl at the front counter what string gauge was, when they mistakenly sent me the wrong ones (being as they don't know what gauge is, I can see why they did that).
> 
> I suspect you wouldn't be so loyal to Starbucks either, if Amazon could deliver you a hot cup in 10 minutes with one of their heliochoppers. Stay connected with your plumber, electrician, HVAC guy, etc. Those are the guys that won't be replace by ID's, unless you can send your house to Amazon.


Give me L&M any day, but unfortunately I'm stuck with the local scene that does none of the above... our L&M is a 7 hour one way drive away. Sure Best Buy might not employ local musicians but if I check my scores it goes something like this:

Local Fender/Yamaha/Takamine dealer
-Ordered a Jazz bass
-6 weeks later head of sales staff still hasn't ordered it.
-2 months later it arrives
-Bridge pickup dies, they had my Jazz bass for 4 months to replace a pickup.
-Had it another 3 months when it died again, apparently no one knows how to work a soldering iron there.
-"ordered" a Takamine Jumbo 12, Yamaha LS16, Digitech GNX3 and more... I stopped checking years ago.
-$30 elixir nanoweb strings
-snotty attitude, bad prices, poor service
-my personal favorite, priced a Fender Urge II at $2300 plus tax. My buddy told me to check out L&M in St. John's who quoted me at $1649.....

Best Buy (Evil)
-Ordered a new Fender Telecaster headache free
-Received a new Fender Telecaster 2 weeks later shipped for free to my door.


I could go on but I'm sure you get the point. I tried to support local, I really did. But in the end if I buy anything at the local shops and then price match it with L&M when I get home I find out I'm getting reamed every time. Bring that up and you're the devil incarnate. I work hard for my money as I'm sure you all do as well, so I won't waste it. I'll buy my gear from L&M and other stores when I'm over on the Avalon or online, as for local 'eff em.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Morkolo said:


> Give me L&M any day, but unfortunately I'm stuck with the local scene that does none of the above... our L&M is a 7 hour one way drive away. Sure Best Buy might not employ local musicians but if I check my scores it goes something like this:
> 
> Local Fender/Yamaha/Takamine dealer
> -Ordered a Jazz bass
> ...


Didn't mean to click unlike. Was on my tablet and scrolled in the wrong spot. Can't figure out how to unclick unlike.


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

I will never again order a guitar by mail, based on past experience. I love L&M, but I notice they have had no new Fender inventory for the past several months. I have read that 2015 Fender inventory will feature price increases of at least 16%. For the first time in my life, I can probably afford anything L&M has for sale, but there is little to choose from. Will be watching with great interest to see what comes next!


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Morkolo said:


> Give me L&M any day, but unfortunately I'm stuck with the local scene that does none of the above... our L&M is a 7 hour one way drive away. Sure Best Buy might not employ local musicians but if I check my scores it goes something like this:
> 
> Local Fender/Yamaha/Takamine dealer
> -Ordered a Jazz bass
> ...


I hear you, and I get it. Of course, the downside is that eventually you may have not a local supply for strings and accessories. Might be a big deal, maybe not. 

I grew up in small town Sask. My parents shopped locally instead of driving 45 minutes to the city for groceries. Not everyone did that. If too many did, there would be nowhere in the small town to buy anything locally. Its better now, I live within 30 minutes drive of 2 large chains and half a dozen mom-n-pop music stores. If one is incompetent, I have choices. I know that isn't the case for everyone.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

rhh7 said:


> I will never again order a guitar by mail, based on past experience. I love L&M, but I notice they have had no new Fender inventory for the past several months. I have read that 2015 Fender inventory will feature price increases of at least 16%. For the first time in my life, I can probably afford anything L&M has for sale, but there is little to choose from. Will be watching with great interest to see what comes next!


when our dollar is low, guitars take a price jump.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> I know my local L&M puts on free clinics, has free guitar set up days, has supplied PA for local festivals, etc. I've attended quite a few of their L&M University things. Get to listen to Simon Jared or Don Alder for free? And then get to pick their brains later? What has your internet company done for you lately, besides undercut the b&m's. And of course, anyone can attend the L&M stuff, even those buying everything on line. Won't last forever though.
> 
> Oh yea, my local L&M also employs musicians, friends of mine that I can go to for help and advice. Best Buy? Not so much. I couldn't even explain to the girl at the front counter what string gauge was, when they mistakenly sent me the wrong ones (being as they don't know what gauge is, I can see why they did that).
> 
> I suspect you wouldn't be so loyal to Starbucks either, if Amazon could deliver you a hot cup in 10 minutes with one of their heliochoppers. Stay connected with your plumber, electrician, HVAC guy, etc. Those are the guys that won't be replace by ID's, unless you can send your house to Amazon.


You don't need to bring Amazon into the mix, there has always been lower priced alternatives to Starbucks. That's my point. they knew how to differentiate themselves and justify their pricepoint (or focus on a selling to a market segment that simply doesn't mind paying higher prices).
As for L&M, I don't think theyre really who most of this topic is about. theyre big, and expanding and have an online presence. no one expects them to go out of business any time soon.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

I don't buy online, be it jeans, Harley parts or guitars. I'm an old fashioned, hands on, want it when I want it now kinda guy. If I'm looking for a 'new' guitar I'll support one of the local stores or kijiji or road trip. Sometimes I don't find what I'm looking for but a lot of times I'll find something I'm not looking for. To me, having it now is more important than saving a few bucks and getting something in a couple of weeks or more. Aside from that, I'm a pay cash kinda guy too. I have a credit card with a limit of about 5 tanks of gas in the truck. I also have a bank card. I go to the bank and withdraw cash, if the bank isn't open I will used a bank machine. I don't know any online place that takes cash. Oh yeah, if amazon could get starbucks coffee here in 10 minutes by drone and I was forced to drink it because there wasn't anything else to drink, it would be too cold to drink. 
Anyway, it's midnight here, a rerun of Mash has come on t.v. and the wife went to bed about 1 1/2 hrs. ago. Happy 2015. Later.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Electraglide said:


> Didn't mean to click unlike. Was on my tablet and scrolled in the wrong spot. Can't figure out how to unclick unlike.


I don't think you can unclick "unlike". I did that accidently to one of Steadly's post awhile back but didn't say anything about it because he was getting a lot of "unlikes" in a pissing contest he had going with another member so I figured he was used to it. I probably should have said something like you did. Sorry Steadly.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Electraglide said:


> I don't buy online, be it jeans, Harley parts or guitars. I'm an old fashioned, hands on, want it when I want it now kinda guy. If I'm looking for a 'new' guitar I'll support one of the local stores or kijiji or road trip. Sometimes I don't find what I'm looking for but a lot of times I'll find something I'm not looking for. To me, having it now is more important than saving a few bucks and getting something in a couple of weeks or more. Aside from that, I'm a pay cash kinda guy too. I have a credit card with a limit of about 5 tanks of gas in the truck. I also have a bank card. I go to the bank and withdraw cash, if the bank isn't open I will used a bank machine. Anyway, it's midnight here, a rerun of Mash has come on t.v. and the wife went to bed about 1 1/2 hrs. ago. Happy 2015. Later.












I'm picturing this in my mind after reading your post :smile-new:. Happy 2015 to you also.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Guitar101 said:


> I'm picturing this in my mind after reading your post :smile-new:. Happy 2015 to you also.










[/URL][/IMG]
Close.....the chain is different and the wallet in your pic is too small. Can't carry much money in that. Looks like one of those chains that go past your knees....they snag on things at just the wrong time.


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