# Is there really a need for a 4x12 cab anymore? If so, where?



## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

When I was growing up the coolest thing ever was the sight of a wall of Marshalls behind Judas Priest.
As I got older and less naive I found that all but perhaps one or two was even plugged in only to later find out that even they were likely false fronts altogether (Yes, I've seen the pics) 
Anyway, It seems to me that once upon a time when PA's weren't all that great or plentiful a lot of guitar players subscribed to the bigger=louder=better for good reason. 
Nowadays the PA technology has got to the point where you can mic up a relatively small amp and project it as far as needed without pulling a huge rig on stage. 

My question is, does anybody really need a 4x12 for any practical purpose aside from the visual impact? Can the same sound be achieved from a 1x12 or 2x12 if properly mic'd and through a good PA?

At which size of room does 4x12 (much less a stack) become either necessary or too much?


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

i run 2x12's...for that reason...i find the extra speaker sounds a little better than a 1x12...

that said...i also have 2- 2x12's so that if i want dispersal...i can run both at the same time...turned different ways...


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

I like the air movement and feel you get from a 50 watt amp plugged into a 4x12. You can't achieve that from a 1x12. I use a half stack while practicing. We play relatively loud but by no means screaming loud.

Its all a search for what works for you, but if you want to rock, its almost as easy as getting a half stack.


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## Fader (Mar 10, 2009)

Just as true in hot rods as in speaker cabs. There's no replacement for displacement.


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## Cups (Jan 5, 2010)

From a practical standpoint, no, there is no reason for 4-12. But who became a guitarist to be practical? Do you need 3 (or even 2) over drives or delays?
and on a different note, a lot of 20watt 1-12 combos are too loud for most venues if cranked.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I feel like this comes up every year. I prefer the sound and look of a 412, so that's what I use. When you play a show, you are selling a product - your music. Image is part of how you market and sell a project, and the image of a halfstack denotes power, volume and I'm sure to some, professionalism (provided it's a stageworthy rig). 

A 212 is going to be about the same width as a 412, an oversized 212 pretty much the same if not wider. If you have the space, bring the speakers IMO. If it's a small venue you will probably sidewash the guitars anyway. All that said, my friend's JCM800 combo is LOUD! He doesn't run a cab.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

Budda said:


> I feel like this comes up every year. I prefer the sound and look of a 412, so that's what I use. When you play a show, you are selling a product - your music. Image is part of how you market and sell a project, and the image of a halfstack denotes power, volume and I'm sure to some, professionalism (provided it's a stageworthy rig).
> 
> A 212 is going to be about the same width as a 412, an oversized 212 pretty much the same if not wider. If you have the space, bring the speakers IMO. If it's a small venue you will probably sidewash the guitars anyway. All that said, my friend's JCM800 combo is LOUD! He doesn't run a cab.


i agree with your points but...here are some notes...

for cover bands...professionalism requires the right rig for the gig...a lot of pubs/bars that a band might play, may not be suitable for a 412...so a 212 would be acceptable...some places don't like, what i am only going to call 'abusive volume'...i don't mean this in a derogatory way...i just mean...whats acceptable for a band playing originals, is not always acceptable to people out for a pint...

i also agree on selling a product...i would have a harder time getting into a hard rock band as they rock out with a small combo...its funny thinking about it...b/c if you put a lunch box amp on a 412, no one would complain...the esthetics are still there...on the other hand...a country band with that same rig, you'd be thinking, are they _NUTS_?

i agree with the same width...kind of like driving a vespa instead of a harley...sure the same 'size'...i play my 2x12 on the vertical axis...free's up space (especially when some places space isn't a commodity) and i can hear it better b/c its not playing to my ankles...

i'm not for or against...don't think that i am...i would love a 412...around here though, places are small or there's stairs...and the last thing i want to be doing is be lugging a 412 up a couple flights of stairs just for the sake of my vanity...

my last comment is this...i've heard numerous stories about Billy Gibbons running a little combo for his live sound, mic'd backstage...i've also seen the same with Jeff Beck...sure he's got that DSL half stack out front...but it was a little fender combo actually plugged in...

different strokes for different folks...it would be the same discussion if someone posted 'why do people drive trucks if gas mileage is better in a car?'


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

ezcomes said:


> I run 2x12's...for that reason...i find the extra speaker sounds a little better than a 1x12...


Does "a little better" mean louder?, "bigger"?, having more tone? 

Just curious as I have not had many opportunities to play through a 2 x 12"...maybe quite a while ago when I wasn't paying as much attention and/or wasn't all that analytical or "critical" in my thinking..LOL 

Cheers

Dave


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

Recently I bought a 4x12 thinking, ya, it looks cool. Like a sentinel there behind me. I run a 40w vintage bandmaster and 18W TMB head. It looked great but I could not let my 18W work in its sweet spot. The 18W is all about driving the main power tubes to where it really sings. It was way too loud. I down sized to a 2X12, and then further yet to a 1x12 cab. Pubs and even 400 person gigs, the 1x12 keeps up just fine. The stage volume is certainly more reasonable with a smaller cab, allowing me to turn up the 18w, certainly more than through a 4x12. In my world, there is no need for a 4x12. Others? To each their own, whatever turns your crank. If you have a 50w head and 4X12 cab, I would assume for most gigs the amp is turned down and you are relying on pedals for dirt. My 18W does have a master volume, but really, the amp sounds best with main and master volumes over 1/2. The 12 lets me get closer to those settings sanely.


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## cdayo (Jan 28, 2014)

Good question Dave. Currently I have a Marshall Valvestate with a MIC G12T-65 (AT - or something). I've broken it in over the past few years, wow it sounds good. I play it open back an it sounds way to loud to be in my basement.
LOUD - PUNCHY - and warm

I also have a 2x12 loaded with G12k-85s, I use with a DSL. Again similar sounding to the 1x12combo.
Very LOUD - somewhat more creamy if that means anything...like its not trying to force anything, just doing it's thing.

I also had a beater marshall 4x12 with G12T-75s which I A/B/C ed the three. The 4x12 wasn't even trying and the volume was at a destroyer level. I didn't realize how loud it was until I turned it off, I'm talking like 3 vol and 4 gain ish on my dsl 100. 
STUPID LOUD at no effort from the speakers.

I realize they are all different speakers but what is important to note is that they all have their applications. I tend to play aggressive punk/rocknroll and I don't think I could play anything shy of a 2x12. The combo I have is more for jamming at home. It just sounds less forced at the volumes required and really works. I've read a lot about how a lot of guitarists like high wattage speakers as they let the amp/guit/pedals(haha) speak for themselves without colouring the tone. There is definitely somethign to be said about using 1 50w speaker to 2 50w speakers to 4 or even to 8 (even in the case of the bass).

I JUST REALIZED! Where do ampeg fridges and bass stacks fall into this debate? Its a whole new ball game!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Budda said:


> I feel like this comes up every year. I prefer the sound and_* look of a 412, so that's what I use. When you play a show, you are selling a product - your music. Image is part of how you market and sell a project, and the image of a halfstack denotes power, volume and I'm sure to some, professionalism*_ (provided it's a stageworthy rig).


Budda: Good points I would not have thought of but it did bring back memories when I was a kid and looking at the big amps some of the groups had. I thought it was impressive and thought of the band as being impressive before I ever heard them.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

I have six 4x12 Marshall cabs. Why? They sound and look great. Its the classic tone and push that you can't get from a 2x12 or open back combo.


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## cdayo (Jan 28, 2014)

Steadfastly said:


> Budda: Good points I would not have thought of but it did bring back memories when I was a kid and looking at the big amps some of the groups had. I thought it was impressive and thought of the band as being impressive before I ever heard them.


Very true. I also have this memory of waiting in the show for the band I wanted to see come on, then taking out my earplugs and being absorbed in the noise/music. ALWAYS 4x12s. Very few bands can provoke that response for me nowadays.


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

even at low volumes & cleans, I love the sound of a 4x12

they are a pain in the ass to move around though! I usually use my 1x12 garnet combo


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

bolero said:


> even at low volumes & cleans, I love the sound of a 4x12
> 
> they are a pain in the ass to move around though! I usually use my 1x12 garnet combo


My experience is casters + bandmates = load in/load out. That said, the one time I've played the hard luck bar in TO, damn those 3 flights of stairs haha.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

interesting thread and here is my take on stuff.

Seems to me there is a lot of chat about speakers and not enough about the amps that drive them.

A 4X12 cabinet I think is only as good as the amp driving it.

I have a situation now that I would like to share.

Just recently I made myself a nice cabinet wich contains a Weber 12" and an Emminence 10" ...both 50 watts / 8 ohms.
If I play this cabinet thru my very nice Traynor Quaterhorse 25 watt ( very liberal ratings I think) amp. the speakers exibit a nice sound and all is good.
If I take the same cabinet and hook it up to my Fender Super Reverb RI the dammed speakers sound a thousand times better.

My point is , I think you realy need to drive the speakers with a little authority to get the best they can offer. I am not talking about distortion.
Thats something I'm not into , but I do know that they need a nice kick in the butt to sound as good as they where designed.

Thats all I have to say about that....

G.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

greco said:


> Does "a little better" mean louder?, "bigger"?, having more tone?
> 
> Just curious as I have not had many opportunities to play through a 2 x 12"...maybe quite a while ago when I wasn't paying as much attention and/or wasn't all that analytical or "critical" in my thinking..LOL
> 
> ...


to ME...the bass was more present...it sounded and felt more present...maybe the added presence is due to the bigger cabinet...or to the added sound dispersion from the extra speaker...to me it provided a bigger, or even, thicker, sound...

i also have an 18W and i agree it sounds soo much better cranked...i guess to me...with how happy i am with a 2x12...why ache my back with the extra weight of a 4x12? like the others have commented...with the extra speakers, comes extra volume...meaning you have to turn your amp down, and in some cases, out of its 'sweet spot'

but like i said before...different strokes for different folks...

i can agree i've seen some bands that i've thought were cool when i saw their stack...but sometimes it was just as much as the amp...the rectifiers were just coming out at one point and the big guys were getting them...that was as much cool factor as a full stack...


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

GTmaker said:


> interesting thread and here is my take on stuff.
> 
> Seems to me there is a lot of chat about speakers and not enough about the amps that drive them.
> 
> ...


That makes me wonder how many mismatched heads and cabinets there must be out there.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

GTmaker said:


> Just recently I made myself a nice cabinet wich contains a Weber 12" and an Emminence 10" ...both 50 watts / 8 ohms.
> If I play this cabinet thru my very nice Traynor Quaterhorse 25 watt ( very liberal ratings I think) amp. the speakers exibit a nice sound and all is good.
> If I take the same cabinet and hook it up to my Fender Super Reverb RI the dammed speakers sound a thousand times better.
> 
> ...


Some speakers sound better with certain amps. 

For example, my non-master volume 1987 sound great through a set of G12-65s or Blackbacks but awful through V30s. All are in 4x12 Marshalls. Different speakers = different voicings.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

funnily enough...i read this this morning...



> Later, we take a walk on to the stage. There’s an area just off stage left where Ace works. Here we find a vault containing all the guitars (quite a sight in itself), the amps, the pedalboard, lights quietly blinking away. On stage there are two full stacks complete with heads. But why are they there – aren’t those the performance amps in the rack?
> “Yeah, those are fake,” Ace explains. They’re simply there because “the audience expect to see them”. And is there anything actually in those fake heads? “Oh yeah – a battery and an LED!” So if you were straining your eyes to get a bead on the amp settings the last time you saw Slash live, you can probably throw those notes away.


so like what was said...a full stack on stage...esthetics for Rock and Roll!

http://www.seymourduncan.com/blog/seymour-duncan-artists/in-search-of-the-secrets-of-slashs-sound/


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## Hammertone (Feb 3, 2006)

Hmmm….can't really speak to the need vs. want continuum, but the where is easy….in my basement.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Cups said:


> But who became a guitarist to be practical?


Certainly not me.


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## ssydor (Dec 12, 2012)

*412's!*

No, you don't need a stack. But this is a constant battle of mine! When I was a younger man, I wouldn't play anything less than a 412! To me, nothing sounds better than a cranked Marshall, through a 412. That being said, a 1960 cab weighs like 80 pounds! So dragging it up and down the stairs in my house, and to gigs makes it a hard sell for me (and my back)! And not only are they 80 pounds, they are big and ackward to carry! The walls going into my basement are full of "beauty" dents from my cab!
I just got rid of my Marshall (mojotone), and 412 cab because it was collecting dust. It hadn't left my basement in years, it was just too much to lug around. It sure did sound great though!
Now I either play through a Marshall 112 combo, or an Orange Head and 212 cab (made of pine, so it is really light).
For small gigs, this setup is a no Brainer. But for bigger clubs, the stage looks strangely bare!
I have been eyeing a Vox AC30 lately. But they are like 80 pounds too! So I can't win!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

ssydor said:


> No, you don't need a stack. But this is a constant battle of mine! When I was a younger man, I wouldn't play anything less than a 412! To me, nothing sounds better than a cranked Marshall, through a 412. That being said, a 1960 cab weighs like 80 pounds! So dragging it up and down the stairs in my house, and to gigs makes it a hard sell for me (and my back)! And not only are they 80 pounds, they are big and ackward to carry! The walls going into my basement are full of "beauty" dents from my cab!
> I just got rid of my Marshall (mojotone), and 412 cab because it was collecting dust. It hadn't left my basement in years, it was just too much to lug around. It sure did sound great though!
> Now I either play through a Marshall 112 combo, or an Orange Head and 212 cab (made of pine, so it is really light).
> For small gigs, this setup is a no Brainer. But for bigger clubs, the stage looks strangely bare!
> I have been eyeing a Vox AC30 lately. But they are like 80 pounds too! So I can't win!


Neo-whatever speakers. It'll drop probably 30lbs in a 412.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)




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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

I don't think I could do anything JUST for the looks if it's not real. ^^^ It sort of ticks me off to lie like that... unless it is completely a joke and the audience is in on it like Neil Young's giant Fenders, or Ryan Adams' 4-in-1 Giant Princeton:


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

I thought I would never sell my Hiwatt half stack, but I eventually got tired of carrying it up a flight of stairs to have a sound guy ask me to turn it down.

I have a head and 1x12 now and frankly I don't miss the Hiwatt. Besides a row of 4x12's isn't Rock & Roll to me. 

This is...


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Or you could get a set of appliances like Geddy Lee does...


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## cdayo (Jan 28, 2014)

Played my first gig with my new band on the weekend. I have always practiced through my marshall 1960a with my JCM 800. 
In an effort to avoid bringing all the gear to the gig, as my bassmate was bringing his bass rig, we opted to let another band bring their guitar 'cab'

I am not sure if it was a 4x10 or the smallest 4x12 i've ever seen but the thing was paper light. I felt like I was going to blow it over when I played it - probably weighed about 25 lbs. Did not even come close to the damage my 4x12 could do and as a result my guitar was totally lost in the mix. I realize it comes down to speakers as well, but this cab was no good with my Marshall. Next time I am bringing my 4x12.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

The one thing I haven't heard mention yet is that, by nature, a 412 (and to a lesser extent a 212) sounds different than a 112. Not just louder or more dispersive, but different.

Multiple devices (in this case 12" speakers) all doing the same thing in close proximity creates combing filtering of the sound as waves interfere, add together or cancel each other out. So from 10' out, a 412 will sound different. But then, when you close-mic one of the devices in that 412 - surprise, surprise - it probably won't sound the same through the FOH as you hear 10' out. 

Just one more factor to include.


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