# What's 'Alt' and 'Indie'?



## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

What defines them? What's the difference?


----------



## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

I'm sure you know that each of those is an abbreviation. Alt stands for alternative and indie stands for independent. Indie is easy to define, they are artists who don't have a deal with a major label. Ani Difranco is the indie queen, she has only ever recorded on her own "Righteous Babe" label, but she now has distribution deals with the majors. Technically the Gangham style guy started out indie too. Style is irrelevant when you are talking indie. Alternative is a term that used to mean something different than it does now. It used to be alt acts were stylistically similar to major acts but were quirky and (usually) intelligent or unusual in some way. Fishbone was an alternative funk/ska band, RHCP was too at one time. Alt used to be "college music" but became a term to loosely define grunge rock. I don't know that alt means much now, but someone like Tom Waits is probably still considered an alt act - the fact that the artist is on a major label doesn't matter.


----------



## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

mrmatt1972 said:


> I'm sure you know that each of those is an abbreviation. Alt stands for alternative and indie stands for independent. Indie is easy to define, they are artists who don't have a deal with a major label. Ani Difranco is the indie queen, she has only ever recorded on her own "Righteous Babe" label, but she now has distribution deals with the majors. Technically the Gangham style guy started out indie too. Style is irrelevant when you are talking indie. Alternative is a term that used to mean something different than it does now. It used to be alt acts were stylistically similar to major acts but were quirky and (usually) intelligent or unusual in some way. Fishbone was an alternative funk/ska band, RHCP was too at one time. Alt used to be "college music" but became a term to loosely define grunge rock. I don't know that alt means much now, but someone like Tom Waits is probably still considered an alt act - the fact that the artist is on a major label doesn't matter.


I guess you have confirmed what I suspected - correct me where I'm off-course... 'Indie' is self-produced, and self-promoted music, rather than 'discovered' and managed(?) This is relatively new, because of technological enablement e.g.. "home studios". Thing is, how/why is the term 'indie' thrown around without knowledge of the status, assuming they can be signed by the 'majors'? It's like (in the past, at least) referring to a Miss, or Mrs. To me, an ambiguous term should be discarded, as it can be misleading.

'Alt' however, IMHO has _always been_ - it just didn't have a label. You mentioned Tom Waits - would his contemporaries like Talking Heads, Devo, B52's also be 'alt', before the term was (later) used? Is it stuff that can't be (or isn't) imitated, and therefore hasn't reached a critical mass to receive a label? Maybe even Bill Hayley & the Comets were the 'alt' of '54?
If Punk was 'alt', did it follow two tracks, one 'intelligent', and one not so much? Seems to me that 'alt' describes a collection which is highly favoured by small parts of the population - it is inherently diverse. So, if you're browsing music by category - reggae, doo-***, country, etc. you can anticipate what you're gonna hear. With 'alt', it could be anything. In music stores, there is that ubiquitous slot labelled "World Music" - what the hell is that? Bulgarian wedding music, Tibetan bells, Andean flutes - all in one uber-'alt' slot.

In popular music, sometimes it pays to be the same, raising the bar - sometimes it pays to be different.
Being the same worked for rockabilly, doo-***, brit invasion - from the profusion of performers, the cream (no pun) rose to the top, partly due to a 'building-on", competitive spirit - 
simple-to-sophisticated.
OTOH, Talking Heads, The Cars, etc. were excellent bands that were totally unique - no competition, no copying.

Enough rambling, outta here...


----------



## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Last yr I attended the Indianapolis 500 & one evening my friend took me out to see a band play in a small club. I wasn't sure if it was Indie Indy rock or Indy Indie rock...... IIRC they hailed from Ohio & have since been on Letterman, so I guess neither label would be applicable any more.


----------



## dodgechargerfan (Mar 22, 2006)

Alt is alt until enough others catch up.


----------



## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

J-75 said:


> What defines them? What's the difference?


Their picture can be found in the dictionary under the word "pretentious".


----------



## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

dodgechargerfan said:


> Alt is alt until enough others catch up.


I remember going into HMV & seeing a section labelled "Underground". I asked the ass't mgr if this music could still be called Underground if it was being sold at an HMVin Brampton. He didn't have a response. I guess hipsters don't like being out-hipped.


----------



## Petey D (Sep 8, 2011)

^^Bwahahahahaha! Couldn't have said it better myself. Hipsters are lame!


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

"Indie" _used to _pertain to artists that were not signed to, and distributed by, major labels, ostensibly because they were different enough not to justify the expenditure by the big company on production, promotion, and manufacturing a snazzy album with cover art, etc.

"Alt" used to pertain to a sort of re-invention of an existing idiom, whether using louder amps, faster tempos, or different instrumentation. I suppose at one time, a band like Mumford & Sons might have been described as "alt-bluegrass".

Of course, as the physical album, and bricks and mortar store have started evaporating, the need for such categories has similarly evaporated, or at least taken on a very different meaning.

Last time I looked, a store that had an "alternative" section usually reserved it for any musicians that had tattoos or messy hair or no hair.

So, at one time they were meaningful distinction. Not any more.


----------



## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

IME regardless of location, all of the hipsters that I've encountered wear the same outfit: Buddy Holly glasses, skinny jeans w/ a wallet chain, child molester moustaches, tattoos that they will definitely regret in middle age, that floppy toque (even in summer) & a Pabst Blue Ribbon. And that was just the women! 

As long as their junk is not exposed in public, I have no issue w/ how anyone dresses. However, if one needs to dress the same as their peers in order to be accepted by them, then it's just another uniform like the suits that they rail against wear. Oh the irony! Yet since it's unintentional it will really piss them off once they figure it out.


----------



## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Yep. Just like I don't care what music everyone else is listening to, I don't care what anyone else is wearing, even if it makes me laugh sometimes. Cheap sneakers, cheap blue jeans and a black or solid coloured T-Shirt is my casual dress year round. No brand advertising unless they pay me or it's free and unique.

If it's mainstream or labels me in any way, I will do the unexpected to not conform. Is there a label for that too? Probably, but I don't care. F**k 'em if they can't take a joke.

Ever since Frank Zappa, my life and my musical tastes have never been the same.


----------



## Petey D (Sep 8, 2011)

I used to be like that too Bluzfish, until I figured out that I was a Rockabilly. I've changed my tune a little bit where as logos are concerned, I don't mind supporting brands and sporting thier logos, as long as they're they're not exactly the same ones as everybody else does. You see, I'm not they type that wants to keep my sub-culture to myself, like so many of the Hipster and Indie rock types I've run into over the years, I want it to grow and flourish. I figure advertising my lifestyle through the logos of the brands that happen to be a part of it is the easiest way to share it with the world. If somebody notices the graphic on my Lucky 13 work shirt, or the Vince Ray sticker in my car's window, and thinks it looks neat and decides to find out more about it and thereby discovers a new sub-culture, or a form of music or art ,or whatever the case may be, and it enriches their life in any way, or inspires a change in their life then I feel like that's a good thing. I don't look at it as a source of revenue for somebody, although I understand your point of view perfectly well.


----------



## Petey D (Sep 8, 2011)

Hey Roryfan, you have something against PBR drinking, wallet chain wearing, tattooed people? I'd be interested in discussing that, as I fall into that category. Proudly.


----------



## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Petey D said:


> Hey Roryfan, you have something against PBR drinking, wallet chain wearing, tattooed people? I'd be interested in discussing that, as I fall into that category. Proudly.


My point was that virtually every group in our society has a uniform of sorts & even those who are rebelling against the mainstream often must conform within their subculture.

For example, if someone drinks PBR because they actually like the taste, great. However if they drink it because their peers perceive it as being cool, that need to define their identify via a brand takes the sting out of their street cred. 

P.S. I agree wholeheartedly w/ your point above about sharing the gospel of whatever turns your crank (that's why I chose the profile name that I did). Good music going mainstream doesn't make it bad, would be a nice change to hear the unfiltered, honest expression of an artist on the radio.


----------



## Petey D (Sep 8, 2011)

Believe me when I tell you, there is nothing quite as satisfying (in relation to frosty malt beverages) as guzzling down a can of PBR chilled to the point just above freezing on a hot summer day. Yeah, I agree with you about societal uniforms. I also agree that it would be nice to hear honest unfiltered artistic expression through mass media, but sadly I think we both know that's not likely to happen again. No money in it.


----------



## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Petey D said:


> Believe me when I tell you, there is nothing quite as satisfying (in relation to frosty malt beverages) as guzzling down a can of PBR chilled to the point just above freezing on a hot summer day.


Sounds like you've never been to Germany. :food-smiley-004: 

The best beer I've ever had in my life was with my old man in Munich around midnight on a hot August night 2 1/2 years ago. We were making our way back to our hotel after attending a soccer game & stopped at a patio in the old city for a night cap. Hacker Pschorr, you wonderful, sublime bitch, you've ruined me for all others. 

The second best beer I've ever had was every other one that I drank on that trip. Sorry to hijack the thread, but in addition to the gospel of Rory Gallagher, I must also spread the gospel of the Bavarian Purity Law of 1516.


----------



## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Petey D said:


> I also agree that it would be nice to hear honest unfiltered artistic expression through mass media, but sadly I think we both know that's not likely to happen again. No money in it.


The thing that perplexes/frustrates me is that in spite of the Can Con regulations, instead of any new CDN bands, or new music from established CDN rockers, Q107, CHEZ106 etc. insist on playing Takin' Care O' Bidness & N'Awlins Is Sinking eleventy billion times a day. The sad irony is that this ever shrinking play list is causing a lot of guys like me (35-45, with some disposable income) to turn off the radio, which will cost them advertising revenue in the long run.


----------



## Option1 (May 26, 2012)

Roryfan said:


> The thing that perplexes/frustrates me is that in spite of the Can Con regulations, instead of any new CDN bands, or new music from established CDN rockers, Q107, CHEZ106 etc. insist on playing Takin' Care O' Bidness & N'Awlins Is Sinking eleventy billion times a day. The sad irony is that this ever shrinking play list is causing a lot of guys like me (35-45, with some disposable income) to turn off the radio, which will cost them advertising revenue in the long run.


Turned the radio off a few years back now, which makes me cool and hip even at age 55. 

And back on topic, the key to the term "Indie" was mentioned in an earlier post in that it referred to bands/artists not signed to a major label. However, there's a sneaky side to that in that the major labels quickly realised the commercial possibilities and established or bought small labels - in essence pseudo-Indie came into being. It's really nothing new, started in the late 70s from memory, but may well have been even earlier.

So in essence, the ever ongoing attempt by the majors to control the industry. Fortunately, it gets (somewhat) thwarted by the increasing ease with which technology allows the creation and distribution of new music, and the continual creation of new labels - even if they're out of someone's bedroom. Sadly though, the types of radio stations mentioned by Roryfan don't help those new labels one little bit, and I'm not sure if the battle for the continued development of music is these days being won or lost...

Neil


----------



## Petey D (Sep 8, 2011)

^^ It's being lost. Without question. The collective minds of our media edifices seem to be closed to the creative and original thought process. All media related product (sadly that's what it really is,) is formulaic or recycled. Think about classic rock radio format, there are millions of classic rock genre tunes to choose from, and yet, the playlists are composed of the same 200 songs, and repeated from station to station over and over again. It's brutal. The trend continues into other forms of media as well; just look at how many movie re-makes have been released in the last decade, and now it's extended into tv show remakes as well. I'm sure I don't have to site examples of the formulaic nature of media today, all you have to do is check the listings to see how many carbon copy reality shows there are, or the Billboard charts to see the zeroxed songs that are satrurating the airwaves. My radio's been off for years now, I maintain, that the only way to find fresh new forms of media is to go off the grid. End rant...


----------



## surlybastard (Feb 20, 2011)

I think both started off as what people have already mentioned in this thread but were then commodified by the music industry. Alt in the 90's which all sorts of mainstream rock bands were branded as to make them seem counter culture to sell to that audience. The same thing has happened to 'Indie' now, it's just the next evolution of Alt in the sense that the marketers use the term to sell to an audience who fancies themselves not mainstream people, while selling them entirely mainstream music.


----------



## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Petey D said:


> ^^ It's being lost. Without question. The collective minds of our media edifices seem to be closed to the creative and original thought process. All media related product (sadly that's what it really is,) is formulaic or recycled. Think about classic rock radio format, there are millions of classic rock genre tunes to choose from, and yet, the playlists are composed of the same 200 songs, and repeated from station to station over and over again. It's brutal. The trend continues into other forms of media as well; just look at how many movie re-makes have been released in the last decade, and now it's extended into tv show remakes as well. I'm sure I don't have to site examples of the formulaic nature of media today, all you have to do is check the listings to see how many carbon copy reality shows there are, or the Billboard charts to see the zeroxed songs that are satrurating the airwaves. My radio's been off for years now, I maintain, that the only way to find fresh new forms of media is to go off the grid. End rant...


Agree 100% about the large amount of music that fits the classic rock format that has been dropped from the rotation. New music? Fuggedaboudit.

The overabundance of "reality" TV is bad enough, but now they're producing copycat versions of these concepts. Really? What moron would actually watch multiple variations of Storage Wars, Pawn Shop Sheisters & Duck Dynasty? Even worse, some idiot in the States apparently got herself knocked up hoping to get on something called "16 & Pregnant". Hey dumbf*ck, good idea, ruin your life for a few minutes of marginal fame. My cable bill is pushing $100/month to subsidize this shit? Very seriously thinking about canceling Cogeco once football is done.


----------



## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

I think "Alternative" is now used to describe acts from the 90's Grunge/Alternative heyday.

In my books "Indie" no longer describes independent artists but refers to the genre they used to call Alternative! 

Indie rock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Indie rock, derived from "independent", describes the small and relatively low-budget labels on which it is released and the do-it-yourself attitude of the bands and artists involved. Although distribution deals are often struck with major corporate companies, these labels and the bands they host have attempted to retain their autonomy, leaving them free to explore sounds, emotions and subjects of limited appeal to large, mainstream audiences.[1] The influences and styles of the artists has been extremely diverse, including punk, psychedelia, rock and country.[2] The terms alternative rock and indie rock were used interchangeably in the 1980s, but after many alternative bands followed Nirvana into the mainstream in the early 1990s it began to be used to distinguish those bands, working in a variety of styles, that did not pursue or achieve commercial success.[1]

Allmusic identifies indie rock as including a number of styles that are: "too sensitive and melancholy; too soft and delicate; too dreamy and hypnotic; too personal and intimately revealing in its lyrics; too low-fidelity and low-budget in its production; too angular in its melodies and riffs; too raw, skronky and abrasive, wrapped in too many sheets of Sonic Youth/Dinosaur Jr./Pixies/Jesus & Mary Chain-style guitar noise; too oblique and fractured in its song structures; too influenced by experimental or otherwise unpopular musical styles." Linked by an ethos more than a musical approach, the indie rock movement encompassed a wide range of styles, from hard-edged, grunge-influenced bands, through do-it-yourself experimental bands like Pavement, to punk-folk singers such as Ani DiFranco.[3] Many countries have developed an extensive local indie scene, flourishing with bands with enough popularity to survive inside the respective country, but virtually unknown outside them.[4]

Indie rock has been identified as a reaction against the "macho" culture that developed in alternative rock in the aftermath of Nirvana's success.[1] It has been noted that indie rock has a relatively high proportion of female artists compared with preceding rock genres, a tendency exemplified by the development of the feminist-informed Riot Grrrl music of acts like Bikini Kill, Bratmobile, 7 Year Bitch, Team Dresch and Huggy Bear.[5]"


----------



## Option1 (May 26, 2012)

hardasmum said:


> ... 7 Year Bitch, ...


I never even knew my ex-wife had formed a band...

Neil


----------



## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Option1 said:


> I never even knew my ex-wife had formed a band...
> 
> Neil



You're lucky, I stayed for an extra 5. But at least she didn't take my gear.


----------



## Option1 (May 26, 2012)

Roryfan said:


> You're lucky, I stayed for an extra 5. But at least she didn't take my gear.


lol I lasted the extra 5 as well.

Neil


----------

