# Steve Segal's selling a cheap Lester on Evil Bay



## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Well, folks, if you have any spare coinage after the holidays, Steve Segal is selling a cheapo '60 Lester on Evil Bay. Check it out:

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Real-1960-Gi...p-/230663867227?pt=Guitar&hash=item35b4a34b5b


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

He appears to be, very obviously, insane


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

I saw somebody trying to sell a '57 Strat on EBay for $500K. For me to pay that much (even IF I had that kind of dough!), Buddy Holly would have had to have used it to wipe his ass after his last meal, and it would still have to smell!


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

100K for a guitar that has been totally refinished not once but twice? He bonkers man


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

GuitarsCanada said:


> 100K for a guitar that has been totally refinished not once but twice? He bonkers man


Agreed. On the other hand, that IS a nice guitar regardless. It's just that the asking price is out of line.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

It's not Segal the actor, for anyone who might think 'maybe' given that the actor also plays. This Segal is indeed a well known collector in Montreal. I suspect the price is a 'starting discussion point' but agree it's unlikely to reach 6 figures - high 5 though, I would think. These things get listed for the international exposure on ebay, but, to my knowledge, hardly ever transact on ebay - that is, we'll never know what it sells for.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

I seem to recall a similar Gibson LP being sold at auction earlier this year for $98,5000.00 there was a thread on GC with that auction because of who the seller was it seems he sold approx. 100 guitars for slightly less than $1,000,000.00 I can't remember the actors name but I sure remember the prices of some of the guitars sold.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

fredyfreeloader said:


> I seem to recall a similar Gibson LP being sold at auction earlier this year for $98,5000.00 there was a thread on GC with that auction because of who the seller was it seems he sold approx. 100 guitars for slightly less than $1,000,000.00 I can't remember the actors name but I sure remember the prices of some of the guitars sold.


Richard Gere http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...collection-fetches-936-000-at-christie-s.html
View attachment 594


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

The thing with these guitars is they are not players, they are strictly for collecting. So you can lie to yourself and lie to your friends I suppose when you are showing it to them but with two re-fins its worthless in my opinion. Maybe 10k and then take it out and play it.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> The thing with these guitars is they are not players, they are strictly for collecting. So you can lie to yourself and lie to your friends I suppose when you are showing it to them but with two re-fins its worthless in my opinion. Maybe 10k and then take it out and play it.


SO few of those guitars exsit, it will sell..not for 100k...but it will sell for a good 50 to 75k at least. even in this market.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> The thing with these guitars is they are not players, they are strictly for collecting. So you can lie to yourself and lie to your friends I suppose when you are showing it to them but with two re-fins its worthless in my opinion. Maybe 10k and then take it out and play it.


The pickups alone are worth more than that kqoct And there's probably that much again in $$ in the wiring harness, tailpiece, tuners, plastic (not the guard, I get that it's a cut down off a different git) yada yada. Add in the 'old wood' factor/legend/take yer pick. But, yeah, I get what you're saying.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

al3d said:


> SO few of those guitars exsit, it will sell..not for 100k...but it will sell for a good 50 to 75k at least. even in this market.


No doubt, to another maniac


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

It's worth what someone is willing to pay, no more, no less.

I'm no expert on the values of vintage instruments, but in general terms, collectibility and value seem to be directly and inextricably linked to how much or little the instrument has been screwed with. This one has been screwed with plenty.


If it plays and sounds as good as it looks it would be a great player but for $100,000. I would hope for it to be completely original.

I'm curious how much it will ultimately sell for.


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## deadear (Nov 24, 2011)

The only Les Paul worth that kind of money is Jimmy Pages #1 .His #2, I would pay $20.000 for. These collectors just got too much money.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

deadear said:


> The only Les Paul worth that kind of money is Jimmy Pages #1 .His #2, I would pay $20.000 for. These collectors just got too much money.


Actually..Jimmy's no1 and 2...would be more in the million mark EASILY considering Clapton's strat sold for 950K...


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## deadear (Nov 24, 2011)

#2 is a better looking guitar but with out a doubt #1 should be the most expensive guitar on the planet.


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

deadear said:


> The only Les Paul worth that kind of money is Jimmy Pages #1 .His #2, I would pay $20.000 for. These collectors just got too much money.



IIRC Joe Walsh's 59 burst sold for just over $350 000.00 a few years back


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Didn't the Peter Green /Gary Moore sell for 1.2 mill in 2006?


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Those guitars have the collectibility factor of big stars so pricing could go anywhere. The one in the op above is owned by Joe Schmo


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## copperhead (May 24, 2006)

The value of Vintage guitars are starting to plumment


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## sneakypete (Feb 2, 2006)

copperhead said:


> The value of Vintage guitars are starting to plumment



People have other things on their mind these days, if you watch the international news, there are a lot of experts are predicting things will not get much better for 2012 in fact they`ve been pretty bad for several years, everything is changing so I guess guitars are/will be affected too. I was a studio art major not finance, but one doesn`t have to be a PhD to see how much different this crisis is from previous ones, I hope the experts are wrong and we will bounce back but many seem to believe it will take longer this time than in the past and even when it does, things may never be the same again. Time will tell but all this turmoil has changed the way I buy and sell guitars here in Japan. The rich will remain rich but the poor and middle class will be most affected.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

shoretyus said:


> Didn't the Peter Green /Gary Moore sell for 1.2 mill in 2006?


There were lots of rumours of Gary selling it for big bucks and then it being resold for even bigger bucks but I've never seen confirmation. I came across this bit of oddness: http://most-expensive.net/guitar-in-world

I would have thought that the guitar in the OP wouldn't go above $50,000 but who knows. I have seen this fellow Segal put pretty high end stuff up before.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

copperhead said:


> The value of Vintage guitars are starting to plumment


NOT those LP's, the 58 to 60's LP's are so rare, will always stop on top of the vintage crave.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

al3d said:


> NOT those LP's, the 58 to 60's LP's are so rare, will always stop on top of the vintage crave.


No wonder those newly-made Chinese copies sell so well...right Alain?9kkhhd


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

my 2 cents on where this "real" vintage stuff will be selling for in the near future.
According to what I see in documentaries and the news, there are more multi millionares and billionares in the world these days then have ever been in our history.
Ever heard of the 99 % (most of us) and the 1 % (the ones I'm taking about).
Expesinve stuff like vintage bottles of wine have , painting by masters etc. etc. have broken all time records in price due to the extreme appetite from the newly rich 1 %. 

OK here is my example... If you where a billionare and had a bank account which had 10,000 dallars in it.
Buying a 100K dollar guitar would be the equivalent of taking ONE dollar out of that 10K account and paying for it.


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## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

The refin and the guard are the only two issues. All refins are not created equal and it depends on who did the job. It looks like a quality refin from the pictures and the fact it was done to improve a bad job is a bonus. Once it's refinned it's a refinnished guitar, whether it was once, twice or a hundred times really makes no difference. The guard is easily replaceable. These guitars are not all about collecting. If that was true Joe Bonamassa wouldn't be touring with his.

It definitely is out of the collector realm but that is still a killer top and that is what sells. I wouldn't call it "player grade" either as those guitars tend to have multiple issues. It would not surprise me in the least if that guitar sold for that price or maybe a little higher even given the economy.

Edit: Okay, there's three issues. But the lack of a serial number is not that big considering the refin. A re-stamp is considered by many to be more suspicious.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Did anyone notice that 'PAF' is not mentioned, nor are there pictures of the undersides of the pickups?


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

copperhead said:


> The value of Vintage guitars are starting to plumment


Woohoo! 59 Burst here I come!!!



al3d said:


> NOT those LP's, the 58 to 60's LP's are so rare, will always stop on top of the vintage crave.


Awwwww, maaaaaaaan!

re: the guitar in the auction, it's a killer-looking guitar, but I wouldn't pay $100k for it even if money were no object. It's not worth that kinda dough. Half that, ok, maybe. However, it's so ridiculous for me to even consider that, since I could probably not even afford a Jay Turser at the moment


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## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> Did anyone notice that 'PAF' is not mentioned, nor are there pictures of the undersides of the pickups?


\

I didn't the first time but I do now. And the pickups were out of the guitar to get the neck cavity shot. Interesting. The pickup covers are a little more rounded than the 59 covers would be and that's to be expected but without the money shots it's impossible to say.

He does say that "all parts are correct" and mentions the guard but that's still a good question.


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

al3d said:


> SO few of those guitars exsit, it will sell..not for 100k...but it will sell for a good 50 to 75k at least. even in this market.


The funny thing is that there's probably 100 of us on this board who own a modern-day Gibson Les Paul that sounds and plays better than this thing. I'd also be willing to bet that whoever spends 75K on this guitar will be doing it with inherited money.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

J S Moore said:


> The refin and the guard are the only two issues. All refins are not created equal and it depends on who did the job. It looks like a quality refin from the pictures and the fact it was done to improve a bad job is a bonus. Once it's refinned it's a refinnished guitar, whether it was once, twice or a hundred times really makes no difference. The guard is easily replaceable. These guitars are not all about collecting. If that was true Joe Bonamassa wouldn't be touring with his.
> 
> It definitely is out of the collector realm but that is still a killer top and that is what sells. I wouldn't call it "player grade" either as those guitars tend to have multiple issues. It would not surprise me in the least if that guitar sold for that price or maybe a little higher even given the economy.
> 
> Edit: Okay, there's three issues. But the lack of a serial number is not that big considering the refin. A re-stamp is considered by many to be more suspicious.


My thing is if you want a killer top buy a 2012 model. If you want vintage get one with some hacks in the thing. I don't want a 50 year old guitar that I paid 100k for to look like it was just made yesterday. To me, guitars of that vintage and make need to be 100% original if you want to command that kind of cash


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## Wileyone (Jul 23, 2011)

I thought "Steve Segal" played a Strat. 

http://


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Wrong Steve. Steve Segal from Montreal actually made a few pretty good amps. But I spoke with him a couple of months ago and he has stopped building them. He is no relation to the actor.


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## Wileyone (Jul 23, 2011)

Alex Csank said:


> Wrong Steve. Steve Segal from Montreal actually made a few pretty good amps. But I spoke with him a couple of months ago and he has stopped building them. He is no relation to the actor.


Sorry thought I would add a little humour/sarcasm to another thread about Gibson's being overpriced.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Wileyone said:


> Sorry thought I would add a little humour/sarcasm to another thread about Gibson's being overpriced.


Got that part, but I guess I've heard too much of that Steven Segal/ Steve Segal name stuff that it isn't funny anymore to me. I know...That isn't your problem.


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## Wileyone (Jul 23, 2011)

Alex Csank said:


> Got that part, but I guess I've heard too much of that Steven Segal/ Steve Segal name stuff that it isn't funny anymore to me. I know...That isn't your problem.


Just my attempt at humor. Isn't it funny how Gibson people get so defensive and all.... All Fender people want to do is have fun.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Wileyone said:


> Just my attempt at humor. Isn't it funny how Gibson people get so defensive and all.... All Fender people want to do is have fun.


Oh, so now you're putting 'Fender' fans against 'Gibson' fans... now THAT is funny! 

You are 9kkhhd!!!!


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Yes, we need to unite against the common enemy PRS, what with their 25" scale lengths & splittable pickups. Pshaw!


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

pattste said:


> The funny thing is that there's probably 100 of us on this board who own a modern-day Gibson Les Paul that sounds and plays better than this thing. I'd also be willing to bet that whoever spends 75K on this guitar will be doing it with inherited money.


I wouldn't count on it. The lumber that they used hasn't been available for a long time. The mahogany had less weight and more resonance; Les Paul's weren't always the chiropractor's best friend. Players started searching them out because they did sound great and that is what initially drove the prices up. Sadly they've left the realm of most players but that doesn't mean they're not great guitars.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

hummingway said:


> I wouldn't count on it. The lumber that they used hasn't been available for a long time. The mahogany had less weight and more resonance; Les Paul's weren't always the chiropractor's best friend. Players started searching them out because they did sound great and that is what initially drove the prices up. Sadly they've left the realm of most players but that doesn't mean they're not great guitars.


You know, I have heard all of these "lumber", "craftsmanship", "finish", "aging", and other claims which are supposed to make a difference big enough for the price to vary by the cost of a new car. Frankly, I don't buy it. But, because I don't trust just my own uneducated ears and complete lack of skill and talent, I am honestly asking the big question: Has there ever been a truly scientific test comparing a really nice original '59 or '60 Lester with some other comparable modern LP-style guitars? I would love to see how (for example) an Agile 3100, a modern Gibson R9, a '70s Tokai and some other reputable LP-Style axes actually stack up against the 'original' and if there is any REAL difference which can be determined with a blind-folded study, using a cross-section of qualified professional guitarists. I don't think that has ever really been done.

Instead, we just get "experts" stating emphatically that there is a big difference because of the wood, the finish or the hardware, or all three, while others disagree. I say: "if there really is a difference you can hear and feel, then prove it!"

I say this because some of the best tones and feel I have experienced don't always come from the most expensive guitars. 

I don't mean to hijack the thread... but I'm just saying...


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

Alex Csank said:


> You know, I have heard all of these "lumber", "craftsmanship", "finish", "aging", and other claims which are supposed to make a difference big enough for the price to vary by the cost of a new car. Frankly, I don't buy it. But, because I don't trust just my own uneducated ears and complete lack of skill and talent, I am honestly asking the big question: Has there ever been a truly scientific test comparing a really nice original '59 or '60 Lester with some other comparable modern LP-style guitars? I would love to see how (for example) an Agile 3100, a modern Gibson R9, a '70s Tokai and some other reputable LP-Style axes actually stack up against the 'original' and if there is any REAL difference which can be determined with a blind-folded study, using a cross-section of qualified professional guitarists. I don't think that has ever really been done.
> 
> Instead, we just get "experts" stating emphatically that there is a big difference because of the wood, the finish or the hardware, or all three, while others disagree. I say: "if there really is a difference you can hear and feel, then prove it!"
> 
> ...


I think it's a reasonable comment. I have noticed that many players who can afford them do search them out but often these are players that played them when they weren't over priced and have had the sort of career where they can afford them. It may be nostalgia on their part. 

I have a couple of '57 Gretsch's. I think that particular year was a good one for Gretsch. The Country Club was their top of the line and the Corvette was somewhere down near the bottom I suppose. The Country Club is a very well built instrument and sounds great for a variety of styles. I imagine Gretsch builds wonderful guitars now and TV Jones pickups in a new one might out perform the D'Armonds in the CC but it is a well built instrument. The Corvette on the other hand, was a cheap guitar but you'd have a hard time convincing me any pickup is going to out perform the D'Armond in it. It howls!!! Of course, it has a floating bridge and it moves easily and was a lower priced instrument to begin with. 

I think some older guitars are better then newer ones but not all. I've got a 1928 square neck National and I've never heard a better sounding dobro. On the other hand I've a 1930 model 0 and a modern one and the modern one is a superior instrument in all ways.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Alex, the difference between a regular Standard LP and say a Historic R9 is QUITE big..so i can only imagine what the difference would be with a true Lest from 58 to 60.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

al3d said:


> Alex, the difference between a regular Standard LP and say a Historic R9 is QUITE big..so i can only imagine what the difference would be with a true Lest from 58 to 60.


No. The difference is only what YOU think it is. I would like to see a 'blind-folded' scientific experiment. The results of that would be good proof. What you say, or what somebody else says is quite frankly, just an 'opinion', based upon anecdotal evidence.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Alex Csank said:


> No. The difference is only what YOU think it is. I would like to see a 'blind-folded' scientific experiment. The results of that would be good proof. What you say, or what somebody else says is quite frankly, just an 'opinion', based upon anecdotal evidence.


I've done blindfold tests with tube and transistor amps with guys who swore up and down that they could tell the difference.

My conclusions were that they could not.

Vintage guitars are likely no different.

If money were no option, I would definitely have a few, but as far as sound and playability goes, there are guitars being built now that are better and for far less money.

I suppose the old saying "it's easy to be tall when you stand on the shoulders of giants" is applicable.


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

Alex Csank said:


> No. The difference is only what YOU think it is. I would like to see a 'blind-folded' scientific experiment. The results of that would be good proof. What you say, or what somebody else says is quite frankly, just an 'opinion', based upon anecdotal evidence.


The only thing a blindfolded experiment proves is whether you like a guitar or not in my book. There's more to a guitar than just it's sound... quite often it's the way a certain guitar makes you feel and that effect can't be complete without seeing the instrument your playing, whether it be a beat up old relic or a brand new guitar hanging on the wall at your local store.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Morkolo said:


> The only thing a blindfolded experiment proves is whether you like a guitar or not in my book. There's more to a guitar than just it's sound... quite often it's the way a certain guitar makes you feel and that effect can't be complete without seeing the instrument your playing, whether it be a beat up old relic or a brand new guitar hanging on the wall at your local store.


So....blind people have no use for vintage guitars?

If the looks of a vintage guitar are so important, you can get very convincing relic'd guitars for a bit less than $100K.

I think how it plays and sounds is what matters most.

The value of these high end vintage instruments is more related to rarity and driven by supply and demand, not so much superiority.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Morkolo said:


> The only thing a blindfolded experiment proves is whether you like a guitar or not in my book. There's more to a guitar than just it's sound... quite often it's the way a certain guitar makes you feel and that effect can't be complete without seeing the instrument your playing, whether it be a beat up old relic or a brand new guitar hanging on the wall at your local store.


That's a fair point. I have no problem at all with what you said Morkolo, but what I DO have a problem with is people who say that there are significant differences in the quality of the sound and playability which make the vintage Lester "way better" than anything else (comparing apples to apples single-cut LP style guitars only here). Certainly, if you want 'mojo', and believe that can make you play better, sound better and feel better...cool. Just don't try and tell me that it's an 'objective' measurable difference in sound or playability.


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## GuitarT (Nov 23, 2010)

> as far as sound and playability goes, there are guitars being built now that are better and for far less money.





> The value of these high end vintage instruments is more related to rarity and driven by supply and demand, not so much superiority.


Agreed. I've been playing guitar since 1978 and quite frankly I don't get this whole vintage obsession. Sure there are a lot of great playing and sounding vintage guitars out there but there are a lot of dogs too. The worst Tele I ever played was a '58. Felt okay but sounded like crap. Having said that on of the nicest Strats I ever played was a '66. Played a '58 LP years ago and it was a good guitar but far from the nicest LP I've ever played. I don't buy into this vintage "vibe" or "mojo" or whatever ever people feel comes with these old guitars. Played a lot of guitars over the years from a 1919 Martin on up and I can't say I've ever "felt" anything special with the old ones. If I'm spending good money on a guitar give me something new and well made that doesn't come with worn and loose frets, dents, dings or scratches, worn out tuners and micro-phonic pick-ups.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Alex Csank said:


> No. The difference is only what YOU think it is. I would like to see a 'blind-folded' scientific experiment. The results of that would be good proof. What you say, or what somebody else says is quite frankly, just an 'opinion', based upon anecdotal evidence.


it's not just opnions Alex....it's more fact then you give credit for. i'm not made of money..so if the difference was'nt that big, i would never sold my standard to upgrade to a R9. But the tone and playability was better for ME..someone else might have said....nah..not my thing regarding a LP, but when we are talking LP users....it's there and true for sure. WHat ever you like it or not..or give a millions reasons...it's still there.


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

Milkman said:


> So....blind people have no use for vintage guitars?
> 
> If the looks of a vintage guitar are so important, you can get very convincing relic'd guitars for a bit less than $100K.
> 
> ...


I can't speak for a blind person, I can only speak for myself. For me the look of the guitar, whatever that may be is part of the experience... obviously playability and sound are much more important factors. Would I play $100k for a guitar.. never, I have a hard enough time breaking down after the $1k barrier haha.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

al3d said:


> it's not just opnions Alex....it's more fact then you give credit for. i'm not made of money..so if the difference was'nt that big, i would never sold my standard to upgrade to a R9. But the tone and playability was better for ME..someone else might have said....nah..not my thing regarding a LP, but when we are talking LP users....it's there and true for sure. WHat ever you like it or not..or give a millions reasons...it's still there.


Alain,

It's "there" for you. You are just one guy with his own opinion based upon your own set of subjective values and opinions. That ain't scientific!

Oh, and I'm not talking about comparing your modern R9 with a modern 'Standard'. I am talking about using science to actually test the differences between "the original" and some good quality similar, but more modern guitars.

So far, nobody has even suggested that this has ever been tried. Why? Is everyone too scared of the answer?


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Morkolo said:


> Would I play $100k for a guitar.. never, I have a hard enough time breaking down after the $1k barrier haha.


if you had say 20 millions...spending 100K for a guitar would be nothing more then for you right now spending a few hundred really..


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## cwittler (May 17, 2011)

I totally get that rare and collectible treasures are valuable to those that prize them. Smoke 'em if you got 'em. 

But what loses me completely is the logic that you need an old instrument to play music that sounds like music that was made back when that same old instrument was actually brand new.

If the argument is that good wood is worth paying for, than I'm with you. 

Here is the latest test on the subject...
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/n...ce-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

A few years back one of the leading auto magazines did a blind (all logos and brand markings removed) study where they put ten high end sedans up to be tested by a group of auto journalists. When the dust settled, a Hyundai model was third overall. They repeated the test with another group of journalists, but with the logos still attached. That same Hyundai went to tenth. This being said, scientists/violin makers have for years poked and prodded, dissected and copied Stradavarious violins, and they have produced several wonderful sounding violins, but none had that something special that only good Stradivarii have.

Edit: slow typist...started this before the above article was posted. Have seen it disputed. Not all Stradivarii are equal in quality.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Interesting stuff guys! And that is exactly my point. I collect old guitars and cars and bikes. I LOVE old stuff! If I had the money, I'm sure my guitar collection would include a nice series of played, but original 'Vintage' guitars. There would most certainly be the requisite Telecaster and Stratocaster, probably a Gold Top P-90 Lester (just 'cuz I like them), a Gibson Firebird, a Martin, a Rickenbacker and a Gretsch (or three)... the list could grow pretty big I suppose. But I would not for a minute justify my purchases by saying that those guitars were better sounding or playing than anything else. It would just be because I 'wanted' them and could afford them.

Now, getting back to the guitar in question: the market will decide the price. Personally, I wouldn't want that particular guitar if I was paying a lot of money. I would spend more and get something more original and with a history that was a bit less vague.

But... alas I'm not the kind of guy to make that kind of money, at least not without a winning lottery ticket!


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

cwittler said:


> IHere is the latest test on the subject...
> http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/n...ce-between-stradivarius-violins-and-new-ones/


That test immediately sets me off because it sounds like it was conducted in a hotel room. What's with the 6 violins on a bed? If they were serious about the research, they should have booked some time a performance hall or somewhere else designed to amplify the natural sound of an instrument. Alternatively, they could have professionally recorded the instruments and had them played back to see if the acoustics are different. As guitarists, we all know that what we hear from a foot or two above the soundhole of an acoustic guitar is _totally_ different from what someone standing in front of us hears.

I don't think the test is hogwash, maybe there really IS something to it, but I think how it was conducted is fundamentally flawed and that makes it difficult to draw any legitimate conclusions from it.

Also, when it comes to a 2 or 300 year old instrument, part of the esteem of that instrument IS the fact that it's been handed down through generations of prodigies. That alone makes playing one an accomplishment indicating that you have reacted a proficiency that few achieve. The honour alone makes it special, even if there are no acoustic or tactile benefits.


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## GuitarT (Nov 23, 2010)

hollowbody said:


> That test immediately sets me off because it sounds like it was conducted in a hotel room. What's with the 6 violins on a bed? If they were serious about the research, they should have booked some time a performance hall or somewhere else designed to amplify the natural sound of an instrument. Alternatively, they could have professionally recorded the instruments and had them played back to see if the acoustics are different. As guitarists, we all know that what we hear from a foot or two above the soundhole of an acoustic guitar is _totally_ different from what someone standing in front of us hears.
> 
> I don't think the test is hogwash, maybe there really IS something to it, but I think how it was conducted is fundamentally flawed and that makes it difficult to draw any legitimate conclusions from it.
> 
> Also, when it comes to a 2 or 300 year old instrument, part of the esteem of that instrument IS the fact that it's been handed down through generations of prodigies. That alone makes playing one an accomplishment indicating that you have reacted a proficiency that few achieve. The honour alone makes it special, even if there are no acoustic or tactile benefits.


Read the "Comment" section of the article. One of the participants (John Soloninka, Jan. 3rd) sheds a bit more light on the test. There was a concert hall component to the study.


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## cwittler (May 17, 2011)

washburned said:


> Not all Stradivarii are equal in quality.


Ditto for vintage lesters.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

cwittler said:


> Ditto for vintage lesters.


True dat. I see you are from Montreal. Do you know Steve Segal (The seller of this guitar)?


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## cwittler (May 17, 2011)

Alex Csank said:


> True dat. I see you are from Montreal. Do you know Steve Segal (The seller of this guitar)?


If he is the same Steve Segal that used to play for April Wine in the 90's, I know of him thru people who know him.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

That's him I believe.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

http://stevesegal.hypermart.net/studio1680/id1.html

Interesting reading.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Looks like he's got some credibility as a guitarist that's for sure.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Yeah. He is no Kijiji scammer! I'm actually quite surprised you guys didn't seem to know more about him in this thread. That was why I put his name in the thread title.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I figured it was the Kung fu guy.

Never heard of this Steve Segal until this thread.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Alex Csank said:


> Alain,
> 
> It's "there" for you. You are just one guy with his own opinion based upon your own set of subjective values and opinions. That ain't scientific!
> 
> ...



Ok..let me ask you Alex...are you a religious man?....if so...Proove the existence of God!....you can't. can you SEE the wind?..yet you know it's there!, but you can't even PROVE how WIND is done scientificaly..they have a shit load of theories...but nothing conclusive. Same with music. Science is for people who can't not quantify things with their own mind when used in discussion like this one. Like the old saying goes..It does'nt take a Rocket Scientist to see AND hear the difference in tone and overall value in craftmanship and everything else. Like i said..you have your opinion and it's well voiced...again and again..LOL...but the fact remains that what i'm saying is true...not only by me..but for anyone who's ever played both.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Alex Csank said:


> Well, folks, if you have any spare coinage after the holidays, Steve Segal is selling a cheapo '60 Lester on Evil Bay. Check it out:
> 
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Real-1960-Gi...p-/230663867227?pt=Guitar&hash=item35b4a34b5b


Shucks, Alex, I could only buy this if it was a matching pair. Just having one would look so, so awkward and unbalanced.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

al3d said:


> Ok..let me ask you Alex...are you a religious man?...can you SEE the wind? Science is for people who can't not quantify things with their own mind when used in discussion like this one....but the fact remains that what i'm saying is true...not only by me..but for anyone who's ever played both.


OK Alain. Let's see...
1. No, I am a born-again Agnostic... or maybe a Pastafarian. I DO like the idea of The Flying Spaghetti Monster.
2. Actually, I HAVE seen the wind. In fact, I studied wind and other meteorological science. Wind and wind theory is pretty well scientifically understood and quite predictable.
3. I must admit that your ideas about science do not align with mine. That's for sure.
4. Your last statement is NOT "true", nor is it "fact". It is anecdotal conjecture on your part, based presumably upon your personal experiences.

In any event, I do not believe that I can ever convince you of even the slightest possibility that a good quality LP-style guitar might be as good or better sounding or have better playability than an original 'Vintage' Lester (a good one). And that's fine. As I have written to you before, I don't wrestle in the mud.

However, I DO believe in science... but I also LOVE art.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Alex Csank said:


> In any event, I do not believe that I can ever convince you of even the slightest possibility that a good quality LP-style guitar might be as good or better sounding or have better playability than an original 'Vintage' Lester (a good one). And that's fine.


it's not a question of prooving to me...get a Scientific proof..and we'll beleive..


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

al3d said:


> it's not a question of prooving to me...get a Scientific proof..and we'll beleive..


No, no, no Alain! See, the way it works is like this: I asked whether there has ever been a scientific study to investigate whether there was an actual difference. You were the one who adamantly insisted that there IS a significant difference, but provided no proof. So, because you are the one arguing that there IS a difference, the burden of proof is yours to provide. I am perfectly willing to accept the results of a quality test.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Alex Csank said:


> No, no, no Alain! See, the way it works is like this: I asked whether there has ever been a scientific study to investigate whether there was an actual difference. You were the one who adamantly insisted that there IS a significant difference, but provided no proof. So, because you are the one arguing that there IS a difference, the burden of proof is yours to provide. I am perfectly willing to accept the results of a quality test.



Actually....NO..here, you need to Prove i'm guilty of something..not the other way around.....


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

al3d said:


> Actually....NO..here, you need to Prove i'm guilty of something..not the other way around.....


Alain - That makes no sense to me at all. In any event, I'm not biting. Go find someone else to argue with please.

Back to the topic: It looks like he has had only 6 offers since September 2011. I wonder if he's advertised it anywhere else. Have any of you Lester lovers seen it on any other forum?


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Alex Csank said:


> Alain - That makes no sense to me at all. In any event, I'm not biting. Go find someone else to argue with please.
> 
> Back to the topic: It looks like he has had only 6 offers since September 2011. I wonder if he's advertised it anywhere else. Have any of you Lester lovers seen it on any other forum?


Don't take this shit so seriously man...it's not good for the heart..

I know it's a popular thread on MLP as well...he has many ebay followers


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## faracaster (Mar 9, 2006)

Alex Csank said:


> Yeah. He is no Kijiji scammer! I'm actually quite surprised you guys didn't seem to know more about him in this thread. That was why I put his name in the thread title.



Well.....it's not him in this Kijiji ad but someone is sure scamming'.

Halifax new & used guitars - Free Halifax Classifieds at Kijiji

I replied to the ad....this is what I got in reply

Hello,

Offering for sale is a Real 1960 Gibson Les Paul standard sunburst flametop, with no finance on it.Excellent condition, It's very easy to teach for learners
Now I live in Manitoba, with my family, I am a dentist doctor and I opened a dental clinic with two colleagues.
Whereas I'm working hard every day and I have the chance to return and meet all the customers that are interested are forced to sell through Escrow Intel for both of us to be protected .
The price $32,500 is not negotiable . I will not barter the price is very competitive.

It is currently in custody in a self storage unit in Canada managed by Escrow Intel.They can have it delivered up to your place for no additional charges, if needed.
The delivery will take from 1 to 3 days, depending on your location.
I am offering 2 days time to have it.
Also, I take in consideration only those buyers who are really interested in buying my unit,to be sure that I don't waste my time with endless discussions.This way,I shall be assured of the serious intentions. So if you are interested please email me.

Thank you again and I offer my most cordial greetings.
Dr. Jessica&Raymond Wylie


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Alex Csank said:


> You know, I have heard all of these "lumber", "craftsmanship", "finish", "aging", and other claims which are supposed to make a difference big enough for the price to vary by the cost of a new car. Frankly, I don't buy it. But, because I don't trust just my own uneducated ears and complete lack of skill and talent, I am honestly asking the big question: Has there ever been a truly scientific test comparing a really nice original '59 or '60 Lester with some other comparable modern LP-style guitars? I would love to see how (for example) an Agile 3100, a modern Gibson R9, a '70s Tokai and some other reputable LP-Style axes actually stack up against the 'original' and if there is any REAL difference which can be determined with a blind-folded study, using a cross-section of qualified professional guitarists. I don't think that has ever really been done.
> 
> Instead, we just get "experts" stating emphatically that there is a big difference because of the wood, the finish or the hardware, or all three, while others disagree. I say: "if there really is a difference you can hear and feel, then prove it!"
> 
> ...


As far as what's a "right" or a "wrong" price for this guitar, I really couldn't give a shit. I can't afford it either way. Lol. However, the hype behind the vintage models by *blank* guitar maker have a lot to do with with classic or characteristic tones and playability measured over generations of experience by many, many players and builders. Tone wood and quality of pickups made some Fenders and Gibsons cherished insruments that have stood the test of time. My opinion is that the _*design*_ was/is key. It's always cool to have old stuff, but it's these classic designs that have endured. Having said this, I know well made guitars, amps, and pedals etc new or old can sound equally fantastic. The benchmarks for what woods are used for what parts in many ways were/have, and will continue to be determined by what's worked well in the past. Beyond the sentimental aspects of "vintage" gear, these pieces are still incredibly relevent building blocks for inproving/ colouring sound . Cheers


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

faracaster said:


> Well.....it's not him in this Kijiji ad but someone is sure scamming'.
> 
> Halifax new & used guitars - Free Halifax Classifieds at Kijiji
> 
> ...


Sounds totally legit, especially if it's "very easy to teach for learners". I'd wire the money to him immediately but unfortunately I'm sure he's travelling somewhere in Nigeria to attend some important personal matter.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

When will these people learn how to write properly or at least have some other scam artist proof read it.


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