# Just started learning: when does guitar music make sense?



## Vintage_Groove (Mar 4, 2008)

I've posted elsewhere here that I just got my dad's barely used electric guitar and amp (from the 70's) and bought myself a DVD guitar learning course.

I've learned the natural notes (and #/flat) on the 6 strings and some chords, but there seems to be zero logic to any of it. At least with drums I can understand the components and timing and the tough part is getting the limbs to co-operate. 

But with the fretboard you not only place your fingers in different spots but the names of notes and chords make no sense. Stuff like Major, Minor, chord names like G7, Am, etc. 

Does any of this stuff make sense after time or is it all down to 'accept it cause that's the way it's always been' and just memorize everything?


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## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

It sounds like you're missing some key information about _intervals_, the major scale, and how those notes are used to build (and name) chords. A chord name isn't just arbitrary, it contains information about the notes in it. 

This doesn't just apply to the guitar, it's fundamental music theory.

What does just apply to stringed instruments is the fact that there is often more than one or two places to play the exact same note. You will just have to accept that.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Lester B. Flat said:


> It sounds like you're missing some key information about _intervals_, the major scale, and how those notes are used to build (and name) chords. A chord name isn't just arbitrary, it contains information about the notes in it.
> 
> This doesn't just apply to the guitar, it's fundamental music theory.
> 
> What does just apply to stringed instruments is the fact that there is often more than one or two places to play the exact same note. You will just have to accept that.


+1 to theory! The way chords are put together makes A LOT more sense to me when I'm looking at a keyboard than a guitar neck, because the chords are more linear. A 7th or 9th chord actually involves hitting the 7th or 9th key up from the root. On a guitar neck, once you've memorized where all the notes are, it might make more sense, but I still prefer sitting at my keyboard to figure out all that technical jazz.


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## Greg Ellis (Oct 1, 2007)

If you're just starting out, it might help you to just play some songs, without worrying about all the theory behind it.

Once you get used to what a major chord sounds like in a song, and what a minor chord sounds like, then it might be worth figuring out what it is about the chord that makes it major or minor.

I wouldn't burn a whole lot of time on it up front, though.


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2008)

Go to the Royal Conservatory of Music on Bloor, just West of the ROM. Enter their music bookstore and ask a cleric for the definitive book on music theory. You'll get a little book, about 90 pages or so, I think it was ~$10 when I bought it in the mid-90's. It's everything you need to know about theory in an easy and accessible format.

FWIW Don Ross lauded this same little RCM book at the clinic I attended a few weekends ago.


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## Greg Ellis (Oct 1, 2007)

iaresee said:


> ask a cleric for the definitive book on music theory


And if there aren't any clerics to help you, talk to the paladin.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Greg Ellis said:


> And if there aren't any clerics to help you, talk to the paladin.


Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!! This post just made my day!!!!! I'm gonna go play some Diablo 2 now.

But seriously, I remember when I first was starting out and i made the mental leap that a barred F chord was the same as an open E chord and that my forefinger was acting as the nut. Then it was simple to see that what made and Em and Fm minor chords was the exact same difference. Little discoveries like that, which after you make those connections seem so obvious, will help you learn about the guitar. It's a brilliantly simple instrument at times, but it can also be incredibly hard to figure out too.

Iaresee, I'm gonna go check out that book myself now! I've been wanting something like that. You can't ever know enough theory! :rockon:


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Greg Ellis said:


> If you're just starting out, it might help you to just play some songs, without worrying about all the theory behind it.
> 
> Once you get used to what a major chord sounds like in a song, and what a minor chord sounds like, then it might be worth figuring out what it is about the chord that makes it major or minor.
> 
> I wouldn't burn a whole lot of time on it up front, though.


I agree--that way you'll actually absorb some theory as you go along. Most guitarists know more theory than they think. I've spoken with guitarists who seem to pride themselves in how little theory they think they know, but when you put that to the test, they actually know quite a bot of theory. Playing it is the best way to learn to play and also the best way to learn theory.

(Also any familiarity with another instrument helps if you're learning theory more formally. I took Royal Conservatory's theory courses from prelim to Grade 2. (The music school I went to didn't teach above that level.) 2 of those years were taught by a keyboard teacher--so I "translated" for the other guitarists. In the third year we were taught by the guitar teacher & I "translated" for the keyboard students.)


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## Vintage_Groove (Mar 4, 2008)

iaresee said:


> Go to the Royal Conservatory of Music on Bloor, just West of the ROM. Enter their music bookstore and ask a cleric for the definitive book on music theory. You'll get a little book, about 90 pages or so, I think it was ~$10 when I bought it in the mid-90's. It's everything you need to know about theory in an easy and accessible format.
> 
> FWIW Don Ross lauded this same little RCM book at the clinic I attended a few weekends ago.


Thanks for this bit, I will drop by and pick up the book. It sounds like piano is probably a better instrument to start with to learn a wider range of theory and music, then moving onto other instruments. I usually read that guys in bands work on songs most times on piano first.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Ditto on most of what's been said here, but if you combine a good theory book with a good instructor to help you apply it all, you'll get a faster and better education. I've had many guitar/bass/mandolin students who had already earned their theory tickets but didn't have a clue how to apply it in a guitar context, or for that matter in the context of their other instrument (usually piano). There are a lot of "light bulb" moments with these students.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Vintage_Groove (Mar 4, 2008)

I was just wondering, instead of basic music theory, what good books are out there specific to Guitar music theory you can recommend? 

Books (and/or DVD) that cover all the aspects of Guitar playing and songs and how the pieces all fit together, why they're called what they are, etc..


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

I have never read the "How to play guitar for dummies", but I have recently bought the "How to play bass for dummies" after reading some reviews and it is hands down the best music instructional book I have ever read. It is layed out in such a way that you can start with absolutely no knowlede at all or skip to the chapter just after the one that you have a good grip on.

I would recomend looking for the dummies book. It teaches theory and technique in a combined format that makes sense and is easy to follow. I dont think that it would be the be-all end-all book but it won't discourage you with boat loads of theory before you are ready for it. By the time they get a little heavier into theory, you will allready have a good gip on the basics because they have allready eased you into it.


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## Vintage_Groove (Mar 4, 2008)

Paul said:


> You've already told us where you currently are as a guitarist/musician. Tell us what you want to go, and what you want to accomplish on guitar, and we can tell you how to get there.


The thinking behind starting guitar was that my son is on the drums more, plus I've been jamming with a friend (me on drums, him on lead guitar) and eventually my son will take over. Unfortunately my guitar friend has zero time to sit with me, and it's tough even finding time to jam on a weekend together right now.

I actually wanted to learn Bass guitar to accompany them but since I had access to my dad's old stuff (and money's tight since we bought the drums) I thought I'd start with guitar first. I figured once I learned enough I could pick up a used Bass and transfer my knowledge to that.


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## Wheeman (Dec 4, 2007)

Pfft, paladins are for scrub healers. Undead priests are were its at. (World of Warcraft reference, not flaming.)

Guitar/bass music, in any of the many forms, takes awhile to make sense. Going from personal experience, bass is much easier to sight read standard notation then guitar. Less strings = less possible playing positions. But like Paul said, its a very different instrament.

Regardless, both will help with your internal metronome.

:smile:


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## Vintage_Groove (Mar 4, 2008)

We're jamming on mostly rock tunes; The Cult, AC/DC, Black Sabbath, Van Halen, etc. But their more achievable tunes, nothing intricate.


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## Guest (Mar 28, 2008)

Strum said:


> Thanks for this bit, I will drop by and pick up the book. It sounds like piano is probably a better instrument to start with to learn a wider range of theory and music, then moving onto other instruments.


It can be easier to visualize things on a piano. It's a linear instrument -- there's only one middle C on it, an open or a closed voiced chord is very apparent on a piano, etc. Not so much on a guitar because both forms can often be played with relatively close finger positions.



> I usually read that guys in bands work on songs most times on piano first.


That's a pretty broad generalization. Some people write on guitar, some on piano, some on a hammered dulcimer. Whatever helps the process you use.


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## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

Strum said:


> I was just wondering, instead of basic music theory, what good books are out there specific to Guitar music theory you can recommend?
> 
> Books (and/or DVD) that cover all the aspects of Guitar playing and songs and how the pieces all fit together, why they're called what they are, etc..


There's really no such thing as 'guitar music theory'. The guitar is an instrument used to play music. Plain old music theory is all you need. Actually not theory at all, but _fundamentals_. This is the information you need to answer your questions in your initial post. There are hundreds of books and DVD's which will show you how to apply this fundamental knowledge to the guitar.

I think you are asking theoretical, not practical, questions and most guitar books contain more practical than theoretical knowledge.

You don't even need to buy a book to learn the basics. Just google 'major scale' or 'intervals' or 'music theory'. It's all there on the 'internets'.


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## helmet head (Mar 30, 2008)

Greg Ellis said:


> If you're just starting out, it might help you to just play some songs, without worrying about all the theory behind it.
> 
> Once you get used to what a major chord sounds like in a song, and what a minor chord sounds like, then it might be worth figuring out what it is about the chord that makes it major or minor.
> 
> I wouldn't burn a whole lot of time on it up front, though.


Yup. that's what guitar is all about..Songs, Music. That's what makes playing fun. I played songs for years and years before attemting to learn theory(which I still don't know a lot about) Don't sweat it I hear Vaughn, and Hendrix didn't know much about theory.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

helmet head said:


> Don't sweat it I hear Vaughn, and Hendrix didn't know much about theory.


I'm not a gambling man, but I would put money on it that they knew more theory than they either realized or let on. They knew the names of the notes, they knew how to build a chord, etc. That's part of theory--but they learned it by playing, not reading a book or taking a class. They still needed & used theory.

We all learn things differently--some by study, some by doing. There's nothing wrong with learning theory either way--they're both helpful. 

But I would caution against making this an either/or option--learn theory primarily through which method works best, but don't discount other methods.

There's not reason you can't & shouldn't learn theory by playing AND by studying it.


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