# CBC - Rik Emmett on Led Zepplin Copyright infringement



## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Anyone catching the CBC news spot with Rik Emmett on the copyright infringement case of Stairway to Heaven?


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

Wait... What?


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

There's a copyright/plagiarism suit in California announced against Plant/Page/Led Zep for Stairway to Heaven by the estate of some guy in a band called Spirit for a song called called Taurus. CBC news is doing a story on it and reporter Paul Hunter is talking with Triumph's Rik Emmett.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Flute/Mellotron and everything included


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## Jim9guitars (Feb 15, 2016)

Spirit had some great music but I don't recall hearing this one. I'm mainly familiar with their "The Twelve Dreams of Doctor Sardonicus" album, and a best of album that mostly had music from that album. This isn't the first copyright issue Zep has been faced with, several songs from their first couple of albums kind of "borrowed" too heavily on some older blues music.


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## flyswatter (Apr 6, 2016)

The song with the alleged Stairway riff is called "Taurus" on Spirit's album, The Family That Plays Together. LZ opened some dates for Spirit on their first US tour when Spirit;s "I Got a Line on You" went top 40 (the song was later covered -- legally -- by Alice Cooper). 

And, by the way, the man who wrote "Taurus," Randy California, was not just "some guy." He played with Hendrix in Jimmy James and the Blue Flames prior to JH heading to England. Spirit was one of the first progressive rock bands in the US, and one of the first bands to combine jazz and rock -- years before other California bands like Steely Dan did it. The Dan's Walter Becker was a neighbor of California's for awhile and cited him as an influence. Randy died heroically while saving his son from drowing in Hawaii in 1997. 

Another member of Spirt, Mark Andes, later became the bassist for Heart during that band's peak commercial period. 

Spirit drummer Ed Cassidy had worked with jazz greats like Art Pepper and Cannonbll Adderly. Before Spirit, he was in the Rising Sons with Ry Cooder and Taj Mahal. 

Spirit in the late 60s early 70s was a major force, musically if not commercially. Their 12 Dreams of Dr. Sardonicus album, produced by David Briggs (later famous as Neil Young's producer) still turns up on lists of great unsung classic albums. 

-------------------------------
I don't know or particularly care about the lawsuit thing -- something attributable to the late Randy California's estate not the man himself. I love Led Zeppelin as much as anybody. But I hate it when people say things to the effect of "LZ were GODS, man, and everybody else from the same period sucks or doesn't matter!!!" Seriously, grow the F up and start opening your mind and ears a little.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

flyswatter said:


> The song with the alleged Stairway riff is called "Taurus" on Spirit's album, The Family That Plays Together. LZ opened some dates for Spirit on their first US tour when Spirit;s "I Got a Line on You" went top 40 (the song was later covered -- legally -- by Alice Cooper).
> 
> And, by the way, the man who wrote "Taurus," Randy California, was not just "some guy." He played with Hendrix in Jimmy James and the Blue Flames prior to JH heading to England. Spirit was one of the first progressive rock bands in the US, and one of the first bands to combine jazz and rock -- years before other California bands like Steely Dan did it. The Dan's Walter Becker was a neighbor of California's for awhile and cited him as an influence. Randy died heroically while saving his son from drowing in Hawaii in 1997.
> 
> ...


This really belongs in one of the other subforums. But until it gets moved, I'll concur that Spirit was a great band. I have one, and maybe two singles from them. I will also note that in my August 1969 "Woodstock" issue of Rolling Stone, Spirit's first album is advertised and grouped alongside other early ventures into the jazzier side of rock, along with Blood Sweat & Tears, Laura Nyro, and several others. Randy California also popularized the Jordan Bosstone somewhat.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

I thought it was interesting to see Rik explaining in some musical detail and strumming a few riffs to explaining why the particular riff in question is used in various songs and that, in his opinion, there was no way that the case held merit. That and some throwback clips of Triumph. At the very end of the spot, it was said that the court case will be based solely on the sheet music notation and not any played music.


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## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

ZeroGravity said:


> I thought it was interesting to see Rik explaining in some musical detail and strumming a few riffs to explaining why the particular riff in question is used in various songs and that, in his opinion, there was no way that the case held merit. That and some throwback clips of Triumph. At the very end of the spot, it was said that the court case will be based solely on the sheet music notation and not any played music.


Seems odd to base judgement on notation, when it's unlikely that either source ever notated their songs using standard notation.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

flyswatter said:


> The song with the alleged Stairway riff is called "Taurus" on Spirit's album, The Family That Plays Together. LZ opened some dates for Spirit on their first US tour when Spirit;s "I Got a Line on You" went top 40 (the song was later covered -- legally -- by Alice Cooper).
> 
> And, by the way, the man who wrote "Taurus," Randy California, was not just "some guy." He played with Hendrix in Jimmy James and the Blue Flames prior to JH heading to England. Spirit was one of the first progressive rock bands in the US, and one of the first bands to combine jazz and rock -- years before other California bands like Steely Dan did it. The Dan's Walter Becker was a neighbor of California's for awhile and cited him as an influence. Randy died heroically while saving his son from drowing in Hawaii in 1997.
> 
> ...


you obviously know your stuff with respect to this band. Its a little before my time...Ive never heard of them.
My question, at the time, STH was on the charts, did anyone notice the similarities between the 2 songs? its a little strange that this comes to light after so many years?


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## jayoldschool (Sep 12, 2013)

The reason why it has come to light now is Zep's re-release sets, at a current publication date. That allows the action.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Merlin said:


> Seems odd to base judgement on notation, when it's unlikely that either source ever notated their songs using standard notation.


I am certainly no expert, but my conjecture based on the way that Emmett showed that the riff is similar to many songs, that using notation is the only way that the plaintiffs can show that it is the "same", and that it can sway a judge that is unfamiliar with music theory.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Coming from a classical music background I noticed that STH was no more derivative than lots of music. A descending bass line supporting minor chord extensions harkens back to at least the baroque period, not simply as far as Davey Graham (who, yes, predates Spirit). Led Zeppelin makes an easy target but if we're going to be pissy about this stuff, why doesn't anyone make a big deal about Paul McCartney lifting Blackbird from Fernando Sor? Oh yeah, Sor's estate isn't sueing, and there's such a thing as public domain. I bet Page was playing parts of STH much earlier anyway, he wasn't exactly wet behind the ears when LZ came to be.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

nkjanssen said:


> Confusion like this can often arise when people seek legal advice from Rick Emmett.


true but it is interesting hearing the opinion of an established musician whos likely been on both sides of the intellectual property debate.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I think part of the problem is that rock musicians (and their legal teams) often do not think beyond a narrowly circumscribed period of musical history, or cultural/genre radius.

And while we're here, doesn't the big major chord strum in STH before the solo sound like almost every second song from the folk-rock era when 12-string Ricks were the norm?


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## Robboman (Oct 14, 2006)

Rik played and showed another entertaining example, how the chorus riff from Lay It On The Line (Triumph) is the same as Rock And Roll Hoochie Koo. He said he's played gigs with Rick Derringer. "Could he sue me? Sure. Could he win? Maybe". 

I think the lawsuit is ridiculous. What about the millions of 12 bar blues that are all exactly the same song.. somebody had to come up with it first, everyone else 'stole' it


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

When I first looked at the title/content of this thread I thought to myslef, "Why is Rick Emmet's opinion on this lawsuit important?"


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Here's a link to the interview...didn't see it here:






Basically being sued for using the same chord progression as somebody else. I guess I best be tearing up every song I've ever written myself. Yes...I know it's not as simple as that, but it's basically what it comes down to.

@ JBFairthorne, I'd think it's important because Rik Emmett can explain it quite well to the average non musician. Dude know his theory AND music history quite well.


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## flyswatter (Apr 6, 2016)

Diablo said:


> you obviously know your stuff with respect to this band. Its a little before my time...Ive never heard of them.
> My question, at the time, STH was on the charts, did anyone notice the similarities between the 2 songs? its a little strange that this comes to light after so many years?


I read somewhere when Randy California was still alive -- might have been in a LZ biography such as Hammer of the Gods, but I don't recall exactly -- that Randy noticed the similarity but just laughed it off. In fact I was surprised that after all this time there'd be a lawsuit over it. But once a musician passes on, espeically one who might not have made the millions others of his generation did, there's no telling what the surviving holders of the estate might find as a reason for a lawsuit.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

JBFairthorne said:


> When I first looked at the title/content of this thread I thought to myslef, "Why is Rick Emmet's opinion on this lawsuit important?"





Dorian2 said:


> @ JBFairthorne, I'd think it's important because Rik Emmett can explain it quite well to the average non musician. Dude know his theory AND music history quite well.


Check out his bio here. Rik Emmett - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He's among other things a teacher of song writing and music business at Humber College. I'd wager he knows a bit of something on this subject.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Most likely that he is still a recognizable figure in Canadian music for the CBC, at least to the demographic watching the National, he's also "from the era" and by the looks of it, he is fairly knowledgeable.

Off to watch Lay it on the line on Youtube......


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## tomsy49 (Apr 2, 2015)

jayoldschool said:


> The reason why it has come to light now is Zep's re-release sets, at a current publication date. That allows the action.


This was before my day but wouldn't the guys from Spirit have heard stairway to heaven back when it was released?? Wouldn't that have been a more suitable time to accuse someone of copying their music? Maybe STH wasn't as big of a song back then as it is now? I don't know that but you would think that you wouldn't wait 30 years to do something about it. I guess now they get 30 years of back payment if they win?


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## Robboman (Oct 14, 2006)

30 years ago, the guy from Spirit who wrote Taurus just laughed it off when he heard the similarity. His family had to wait a long time for him to die before they could pursue legal action, because he didn't want to.

Or more likely, aggressive lawyers saw a potential opportunity that prompted the suit. Maybe the family merely agreed to it. 

Hey, if the lawyers agreed to only charge fees if they win, then why not try? Better odds than the lottery, if only slightly.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

The zep song is very different with the notes going up on the high E string which the Taurus song does not do.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

I wrote a twelve bar blues. Uh oh. Who owns that?


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

nkjanssen said:


> Copyright Myth #1 - No copyright attaches to blues songs. A blues song is no different than any other song from a copyright standpoint. Originality is an extremely low threshold in a copyright action. If that threshold is met, copyright attaches. Then the question becomes whether or not copying took place or whether the songs were achieved independently. Two songs can be exactly alike and there is no copyright infringement if one is not a _copy_ of the other. But if it is a copy, it's infringement. See: "Crescent City Blues" vs. "Folsom Prison Blues"


It's a good thing that you know copyright stuff. A certain familiar person to many may come at you at some point.

Some Kinda Year, by National Divide

It's the first song on your list there, fantastic sounding stuff. I'll bet you're familiar with Jr. around these parts a while ago as well.


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## Slooky (Feb 3, 2015)

I just hope we don't have to hear STH anymore. Was once a great song but radio really killed it, by playing it a gazzilion times it and if I have to hear it again I could puke..


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

The judge has disallowed bringing up previous settlements Zep have made for copyright infringements. That will really help the band, as they are notorious for "borrowing" without giving any credit.
One thing to keep in mind is that this is a jury trial, also anyone biased in favour of the band reportedly were weeded out of the jury.


flyswatter said:


> I read somewhere when Randy California was still alive -- might have been in a LZ biography such as Hammer of the Gods, but I don't recall exactly -- that Randy noticed the similarity but just laughed it off.





Robboman said:


> 30 years ago, the guy from Spirit who wrote Taurus just laughed it off when he heard the similarity. His family had to wait a long time for him to die before they could pursue legal action, because he didn't want to.


Hmmm. What I read was:
“I’d say it was a ripoff,” California said. “And the guys made millions of bucks on it and never said ‘Thank you,’ never said, ‘Can we pay you some money for it?’ It’s kind of a sore point with me. Maybe someday their conscience will make them do something about it.” (Stairway to Heaven: The Song Remains Pretty Similar)

Very interesting case. Apparently there may be grounds for mistrial as the plaintiff introduced something that was not included in the exhibit list.


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## Jim9guitars (Feb 15, 2016)

My observation has shown that only songs that are, or have made a lot of money tend to end up in these disputes, which probably means I have nothing to worry about(aside from the fact that all of my original music is very different from anything I'm familiar with). As for Rik Emmett, he's a very upstanding guy, I've seen him live numerous times, mostly back in the day rockin' out with Triumph and once at a small acoustic show where attendees were invited to hang out and chat afterword. His acoustic set was brilliant and was a lot of fun and very informative during the chat session.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

I thought Rik Emmet made a very valid argument that they are not the same -- I have thought this all along. 

I also noted that Rik seems to have a deal with Godin these days.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Merlin said:


> Seems odd to base judgement on notation, when it's unlikely that either source ever notated their songs using standard notation.


I thought about this one again after watching a few interviews with Page and Zep documentaries. It is quite possible that at least Page wrote out their songs. He was musically trained and an established studio player before LZ, which would have necessitated him to be proficient in reading and writing notation. Also I would think that at the time, music training was still tending towards theory-based techniques ans that the musicians of the day probably understood theory more than we would give them credit for.


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## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

ZeroGravity said:


> I thought about this one again after watching a few interviews with Page and Zep documentaries. It is quite possible that at least Page wrote out their songs. He was musically trained and an established studio player before LZ, which would have necessitated him to be proficient in reading and writing notation. Also I would think that at the time, music training was still tending towards theory-based techniques ans that the musicians of the day probably understood theory more than we would give them credit for.


Of LZ, I'd say JPJ probably would have had the most familiarity with standard notation, being a keyboard player.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

We will never hear of a copyright infringement to the music of King Crimson!


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

jb welder said:


> ................ It’s kind of a sore point with me. Maybe someday their conscience will make them do something about it.” (Stairway to Heaven: The Song Remains Pretty Similar)
> 
> Very interesting case. Apparently there may be grounds for mistrial as the plaintiff introduced something that was not included in the exhibit list.



I just quoted this because the link name is one of the cleverer plays on words I have ever seen in my life.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Up next, the estate of Randy California sues The Red Hot Chili Peppers over their song Dani California......


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

Rollin Hand said:


> I thought Rik Emmet made a very valid argument that they are not the same -- I have thought this all along.
> 
> I also noted that Rik seems to have a deal with Godin these days.


He was playing PRS guitars a few years back. I dropped off an amp at a guitar shop and there was only one other person in the shop at the time, playing a PRS and jamming over an ACDC song...it was Rik Emmett. The owner came out, introduced me and made a funny crack about Rik being in for lessons. My only brush with a celebrity


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Merlin said:


> Seems odd to base judgement on notation, when it's unlikely that either source ever notated their songs using standard notation.


I'm not too familiar with copyright, but my understanding is that for music, it is done by notation, and that is pretty much what counts most.
Not sure if the jury will see through it or not, but the defending lawyer put up the recorded version by Zep against the notated version by Spirit played on piano. 
Not to be outdone, the plaintiff used an acoustic version of Zep vs an acoustic version of the Spirit _bassline._
Page looks like he's having a blast.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

nkjanssen said:


> I definitely haven't consciously copied anyone, but if I've done it subconsciously (a la George Harrison), I'd love to get sued for copyright infringement. For it to be worth anyone's while, it would likely mean I've sold millions of records! Page/Plant have been sued for infringement, what, like two dozen times? I believe they've settled all of the previous ones out of court. No matter how this one goes, though, I don't think Jimmy is going to have to sell the castle and move into a one bedroom apartment in Slough anytime soon.
> 
> One interesting side effect of this suit if LZ happen to win on the basis of lack of originality (which seems to be their main argument)... the opening of STH will be fair game for anyone to use in their own songs. They're essentially arguing that it's in the public domain. So if Pharrel Williams writes a big dance hit around that exact riff/melody, LZ won't be able to sue him. Or if they do, he can just file LZ's own brief in response.


I like your response a lot. That's the thing many non musicians (perhaps some copyright lawyers) do not understand is that it isn't black and white when it comes to anyones tune. Unfortunately the law doesn't seem to take into account the many gray areas musicians of all pedigree face continuously, mainly (at lest for many of us), coming up with something original and trying not to sound like whoever. It never seems to work. This post is a perfect example of the gray area. Some Kinda Year sounded influenced by Tom Petty to me, but all the other variables (living in Western Country, our past musical influences, past songs we've learned, practice habits etc), will and do IMO contribute to your own originality. 

And thank you very much for not getting all uptight about me saying it sounded like TP and the Heartbreakers.....I just happen to be a fairly big fan of TP and my buddy plays a lot of his stuff as well.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Merlin said:


> Seems odd to base judgement on notation, when it's unlikely that either source ever notated their songs using standard notation.


But by putting them into notation you can see how similar or dissimilar they are--so it makes sense that way.


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## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

zontar said:


> But by putting them into notation you can see how similar or dissimilar they are--so it makes sense that way.


IF you can read it...


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Merlin said:


> IF you can read it...


Sure, but for the purposes of a trial they may just call an expert witness--or even before that in pre trial talks.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)




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## Guest (Jun 19, 2016)

A snippet from The National Post

_Kevin Hanson, a guitar instructor and former member of Huffamoose, played passages from both songs on acoustic guitar and says they 
are virtually identical. When listening to videos of the two played simultaneously, he said there was nothing discordant about them.

“To my ear, they sound like they are one piece of music,” he said.

On cross-examination, however, Hanson, who doesn’t have a college degree and is not a musicologist, said he can easily tell the songs apart.

Another plaintiff expert, Alexander Stewart, a music professor at the University of Vermont, said he found five categories in which both songs had 
significant similarities, including a descending chord progression, notes lasting the same duration and a series of arpeggios and similar pairs of notes.

Alexander Stewart, a University of Vermont music professor, appeared as one of the plaintiff's witnesses in the 'Stairway to Heaven' copyright case.

Stewart said the descending chord progression and other elements have been found in songs dating to the 1600s. But he testified that of more 
than 65 songs the defence has said have a similar construction, including “My Funny Valentine,” the Beatles’ “Michelle,” and “Chim Chim Cher-ee” 
from the movie “Mary Poppins,” none contained all five elements shared by “Taurus” and “Stairway.”

“Not one of them came close,” Stewart said, though he acknowledged on cross-examination that the notes in both songs didn’t all line up in the same places.

The plaintiffs are expected to wrap up their case Friday with estate trustee, Michael Skidmore, concluding testimony and a financial expert taking the stand._


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)




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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

1:37. I heard "As my guitar gently weeps" by George Harrison. Sue them all!!!

Just joking. Sounds really prog/rock&blues with a neo classical twist on the harpsichord sounding thing. I like it.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Still seems like a cash grab to me. This can't be cheap. I guess the loser will be footing the bill and even though LZ can afford it, I hope the cash grabbers have to pay up. Probably lawyers doing it for a portion of the profits if they can pull it off.


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

This just in!

Led Zeppelin did not steal riff for Stairway to Heaven, jury finds


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Moosehead said:


> This just in!
> 
> Led Zeppelin did not steal riff for Stairway to Heaven, jury finds


Was the correct judgment.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Now, if they could just declare that DiMarzio does not have exclusive rights to double-crème HB pickups, all would be right with the world.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Congratulations to LZ, and to Rik Emmett who was correct in his assessment that there was no case.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

For his next case, Rick Emmett is going to prove the world is flat.
#flatearthsociety


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

vadsy said:


> For his next case, Rick Emmett is going to prove the world is flat.
> #flatearthsociety



Bugs Bunny already proved it


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Solid mallet, solid argument.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

The truth has come out IMO. Let's hope this is the end of it.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

nkjanssen said:


> Mahatma Gandhi, Abraham Lincoln, Nelson Mandela…
> 
> Definitely all bottom feeders who prayed on the weak-minded.


Good point. Thanks for pointing out that not all lawyers are out for a quick buck.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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