# Zipper merge



## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

N.B. man who used 'zipper merge' in heavy traffic says it sparked a road rage incident (yahoo.com)

I have to admit, I always thought it was a dangerous and selfish driving move.
Apparently, I was wrong. Mind you, a lot of things that might work in Germany, might not be a fit here.
Your take?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Often a zipper merge is the most efficient way to decrease lanes, but there are many times when clearly posted lane reduction signs are ignored until the very last moment and people who could easily merge into the remaining lane(s) decide instead to gun it to the head of the line and enter the lane ahead of those who heeded the signs and merged at the earliest chance.

People (myself included) are growing increasingly weary of the "me first" behaviour out there.

Oh and while we at it, Lane splitting falls under the same category to me. Wait your turn.

I'm one of those who will give you the shirt off my back if you ask respectfully. Don't try and butt in though.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Often a zipper merge is the most efficient way to decrease lanes, but there are many times when clearly posted lane reduction signs are ignored until the very last moment and people who could easily merge into the remaining lane(s) decide instead to gun it to the head of the line and enter the lane ahead of those who heeded the signs and merged at the earliest chance.
> 
> People (myself included) are growing increasingly weary of the "me first" behaviour out there.
> 
> ...


Yup. Those folks are the reason why I'm glad I don't have to commute to work on the Queensway here. They tend to foster a rather sour view of human nature, and that's something I prefer to avoid.

I have often found myself in a situation where the right hand lane ends for some reason and, being behind a large moving van in slow congested traffic on a prairie-flat surface, I have no early warning of it. Smooth zipper merges are the order of the day in such instances. The slowing of traffic is largely due to human decision-making time and the failure to treat zipper merges as the sensible and automatic solution. But that is entirely different than the person who speeds down an open service lane until they reach the hatched island between the exit ramp and main lanes, and gives you the puppy-dog have-pity-on-a-poor-soul eyes to butt in to the flow *ahead *of where they didn't want to be. Nobody likes cheaters.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

An interview with the lad on CBC: https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-thursday-edition-1.6279372


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I think one of the differences between here and Germany is, the amount of massive trucks we have on the road here, that dont flow in traffic as easily. In europe I hardly ever saw any "18 wheelers" on the highways (somehow) whereas here they are a major % of vehicles on the road. when they stop to let someone in, it takes them a while to get going again, and traffic increases.
I can see zipper merges working well when traffic is slow but still moving. That isnt so common here in the centre of the universe.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Yup. Those folks are the reason why I'm glad I don't have to commute to work on the Queensway here. They tend to foster a rather sour view of human nature, and that's something I prefer to avoid.
> 
> I have often found myself in a situation where the right hand lane ends for some reason and, being behind a large moving van in slow congested traffic on a prairie-flat surface, I have no early warning of it. Smooth zipper merges are the order of the day in such instances. The slowing of traffic is largely due to human decision-making time and the failure to treat zipper merges as the sensible and automatic solution. But that is entirely different than the person who speeds down an open service lane until they reach the hatched island between the exit ramp and main lanes, and gives you the puppy-dog have-pity-on-a-poor-soul eyes to butt in to the flow *ahead *of where they didn't want to be. Nobody likes cheaters.



There has been a construction zone in my frequent driving path for months. They're rebuilding the infrastructure for a main thouroughfare.

People who live in the neighborhood and who KNOW the lanes are decreased at certain spots and who STILL get in the wrong lane and zip ahead of those who dutifully merged as soon as it was safe to so don't really impress me.

They bloody know their lane ends ahead but their schedules / lives are apparently more important than the rest of us....

Maybe I'm petty and small minded, but if I have a way to impede such assholes without endangering anyone else, I'll do it.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I used to work in Stoney Creek and I live in Brantford. Every day on the commute home coming off the Lincoln Alexander Parkway on to the 403 we'd have to get in to the left lane to merge. It was always very slow moving there at rush hour. I always made sure to get over from the right if I was in that lane, reasonably early. Many cars would stay in the right right up to the last moment, some of them even taking the shoulder after the merge in order to skirt around traffic. It used to piss me off but I never let it bother me too much. A couple days a week, though, I'd be commuting with my boss, who would be driving and he was quite aggressive about it. It bothered him quite a bit and he'd move over to the right and sit there beside our open spot on the left, and not let any traffic on the right pass by. Of course this took cooperation from the car behind us to leave our spot open and they pretty much always did. My self, I don't advocate this and I always felt a bit uncomfortable when he did this.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Milkman said:


> Often a zipper merge is the most efficient way to decrease lanes, but there are many times when clearly posted lane reduction signs are ignored until the very last moment and people who could easily merge into the remaining lane(s) decide instead to gun it to the head of the line and enter the lane ahead of those who heeded the signs and merged at the earliest chance.
> 
> People (myself included) are growing increasingly weary of the "me first" behaviour out there.
> 
> ...


That's what you are supposed to do though. Wait until the last minute, not merge as soon as you see the sign or the first chance you get.

That's the whole point of it.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

When I used to drive a rig, I had to do a written test every five years along with a medical.
The zipper lane question was always present and yes, by law, you drive to the end and take turns zipping up.


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## crann (May 10, 2014)

I'm a big fan of the zipper merge. Mostly because it saves me time but often it's safer. For instance, I've seen people fight to merge from a two lane into a one lane in an intersection, when there's 500m of open lane before the pylons. That leaves cars in the intersection once the light changes and creates unnecessary gridlock. But boy-howdy do people get mad when I drive down an open lane.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> There has been a construction zone in my frequent driving path for months. They're rebuilding the infrastructure for a main thouroughfare.
> 
> People who live in the neighborhood and who KNOW the lanes are decreased at certain spots and who STILL get in the wrong lane and zip ahead of those who dutifully merged as soon as it was safe to so don't really impress me.
> 
> ...


this will get your goat....I used to work with a sales guy, ...one day, a few of us were complaining about the traffic jam coming in...he matter-of-factly said he used the zipper merge (called it something else then), and said"...Im not going to wait in line like a sucker...". It was pretty much what I always thought ppl that do that are thinking.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

all of you read the article, saw the graphic, and still refuse to understand it. it's like 2 dogs fighting over 2 identical bones because each one thinks the other dog's bone is bigger than yours. you guys (like me) have goal denial issues.
you think you are doing the responsible thing by getting over "now" when you see the sign that says "right lane ends". then when you see a car pass you on the right, you feel like he got over on you. however, what is really going on is, when everyone gets over into the left lane right away, they're just moving the choke point further back. all that does is take away room to fit more cars in the (now) mostly unused portion of the right lane. if everyone employed the zipper merge correctly, traffic would actually move quicker because the mostly unused right lane would allow more cars to occupy the same distance of hiway. the merge would flow better, because it would be more organized, with smaller gaps in between cars. many of you who get angry over this are the same people who don't understand that when you see a yield sign at the end of a freeway on ramp, yield does not mean stop. it means yield to traffic already occupying that lane. it's the exact reason why every drivers manual in n. america instructs thru traffic to avoid the right lane near on ramps.
lastly, there is another reason many people make the merge areas so excruciatingly slow. many of you are gapping the the car in front of you by a ridiculously unnecessary distance. some do it because they are doing more than just driving, which is bullshit. hang up the fucking phone, put the burger down, pay attention. this same problem occurs at traffic lights. people gap a car length or more at a traffic light, and refuse to pull up. then before you know it, people can't enter the left turn lane and have to sit through the light multiple times because asshats who refuse to pull up are blocking the entrance to the lane.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Guncho said:


> That's what you are supposed to do though. Wait until the last minute, not merge as soon as you see the sign or the first chance you get.
> 
> That's the whole point of it.


Then why on earth would anyone leave space for drivers to merge well ahead of the endpoint? Why not just bunch up as much as you can, and leave all merging until the endpoint?

Personally, I view this issue of zipper merges as reflective of the generally decline of patience within society. The person who zips ahead quickly, to butt in ahead of others, under the guise of zipper merge, is likely the same person who routinely takes their turn at a light either AS the light is turning red or even after, simply because they don't want to wait. There are some intersections where safety demands that I wait until well _after_ my light has turned green, because of the constant occurrence of people who zip through the intersection on the major cross-street, long after their light went amber. Their impatience renders the intersection unsafe. Two streets adjacent to ours had to have speed indicators installed because so many motorists were using them as shortcuts to beat the lights on the main thoroughfares, cruising through a school zone and around a blind corner, at much higher than posted speeds. Driver impatience, and impatience in general, is a pox on society.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

EVERYONE'S drive would be much smoother, more enjoyable, and possibly quicker, if everyone was more polite/courteous with each other on the roads. I can't tell you how many time someone was riding my butt, trying desperately to get by me and eventually succeeding, only to end up parked beside me at a light, or waiting behind the same car I was.

As for the road rager...what makes him more important than everyone else, where he gets to take out someone's window? I can appreciate an understand that everyone has bad days, but, seriously?

A wise man once said to me, "you don't mess with another guys woman, his car, or his guitar." Words to live by.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

All hail the zipper merge: How Canadian politeness is killing the efficiency of our highways


Canada's stubborn refusal to merge late is dangerous, anarchic and — amazingly — slower. In some of the better-driving parts of the world, it’s illegal




nationalpost.com


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Milkman said:


> There has been a construction zone in my frequent driving path for months. They're rebuilding the infrastructure for a main thouroughfare.
> 
> People who live in the neighborhood and who KNOW the lanes are decreased at certain spots and who STILL get in the wrong lane and zip ahead of those who dutifully merged as soon as it was safe to so don't really impress me.
> 
> ...


OR, maybe they're using the zipper merge the way it's supposed to be. The key to zipper merge working properly is people need to stop this "back of the line" method of thinking.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Also, I've noticed people don't seem to understand this when it comes to drive thru as well. They'll line up 4 cars deep at one menu board, and then get mad at the person who drives right up to the menu board in the second empty lane. It's not my fault you all lined up to one register when there's a second register open right next to you. 

It's the same with zipper merging. Don't blame the person for using the empty lane when you line up half a mile too soon.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Rollin Hand said:


> As for the road rager...what makes him more important than everyone else, where he gets to take out someone's window? I can appreciate an understand that everyone has bad days, but, seriously?


Yeah and when they are following a slower vehicle with this bumper sticker








they go nuts...I used to see this sticker years ago when cars had bumpers.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Guncho said:


> That's what you are supposed to do though. Wait until the last minute, not merge as soon as you see the sign or the first chance you get.
> 
> That's the whole point of it.


There's no need for that in the city. I won't cooperate with those with a "Me first" attitude.

On the highway, fine.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Diablo said:


> this will get your goat....I used to work with a sales guy, ...one day, a few of us were complaining about the traffic jam coming in...he matter-of-factly said he used the zipper merge (called it something else then), and said"...Im not going to wait in line like a sucker...". It was pretty much what I always thought ppl that do that are thinking.



Exactly. Saying it's "supposed to work that way" is rationalizing shitty behaviour IMO.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

And while I'm telling you youngsters to get the f$#k off my lawn, you can keep your traffic circles overseas where they belong.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

laristotle said:


> All hail the zipper merge: How Canadian politeness is killing the efficiency of our highways
> 
> 
> Canada's stubborn refusal to merge late is dangerous, anarchic and — amazingly — slower. In some of the better-driving parts of the world, it’s illegal
> ...


Although the video makes perfect sense, the scenario he depicts is one in which there is already a line of cars in the lane ending. In that circumstance, a zipper merge is logical. What irritates so many, including myself and some others here, is when that is NOT the scenario, and a single driver who can clearly see that the lane ends, AND has plenty of opportunity to merge with ease, given the flow and density of traffic, without slowing anything or anyone down, does not avail themselves of a early merge, but instead uses the terminating lane as their own private passing lane. I've seen plenty of instances where a driver in the middle or right-hand lane leaves that lane for a service road, races ahead to its end, and attempts to cut back in to their former lane under the premise of a zipper merge.

Imagine a customer at a steakhouse who orders a steak with some particular degree of doneness. When served, they take a bite and call the server over to complain that it wasn't cooked the way that was requested. The server apologizes, returns the steak to the kitchen and returns some time later with either another steak or the same one cooked a little more (assuming the customer wanted that). The customer takes another bite, calls over the server to complain again, and sends it back to the kitchen. This cycle repeats several more times, at which point the customer stands up, declares "If you can't cook things right, I'm leaving!", and marches out in a huff without paying because, after all, they didn't get the meal they ordered (even if they had almost an entire steak's worth of meat during the "trying out").

Now, should a customer be able to send a meal back to the kitchen if it is not prepared according to request? Absolutely. It is a time-honoured tradition that the customer is always right, especially when it comes to meals. But that customer has abused the system to their own personal benefit, at the same time as occupying the kitchen and serving staff, delaying everyone else's meal.

When the traffic is flowing smoothly, with decent safe space between vehicles, and one putz races to the end of the terminating lane to jump ahead of everyone, and forces someone to come to a near halt to let them in for their (postulated) zipper merge, it forces everyone else behind them to slow down. One guy's brake lights come on then the next one and the next, and on down the line, with people 30 cars back wondering what the hold-up is.

There are zipper merges that serve the collective flow of traffic, and there are pretend zipper merges that serve only one individual to the detriment of others. Few, if any, object to the former - I've been in plenty of those and it was the only sensible thing to do, especially if most automobile drivers could not see the lane ending up ahead - but we object strenuously to the latter.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Although the video makes perfect sense, the scenario he depicts is one in which there is already a line of cars in the lane ending. In that circumstance, a zipper merge is logical. What irritates so many, including myself and some others here, is when that is NOT the scenario, and a single driver who can clearly see that the lane ends, AND has plenty of opportunity to merge with ease, given the flow and density of traffic, without slowing anything or anyone down, does not avail themselves of a early merge, but instead uses the terminating lane as their own private passing lane. I've seen plenty of instances where a driver in the middle or right-hand lane leaves that lane for a service road, races ahead to its end, and attempts to cut back in to their former lane under the premise of a zipper merge.
> 
> Imagine a customer at a steakhouse who orders a steak with some particular degree of doneness. When served, they take a bite and call the server over to complain that it wasn't cooked the way that was requested. The server apologizes, returns the steak to the kitchen and returns some time later with either another steak or the same one cooked a little more (assuming the customer wanted that). The customer takes another bite, calls over the server to complain again, and sends it back to the kitchen. This cycle repeats several more times, at which point the customer stands up, declares "If you can't cook things right, I'm leaving!", and marches out in a huff without paying because, after all, they didn't get the meal they ordered (even if they had almost an entire steak's worth of meat during the "trying out").
> 
> ...



You seem to get what I'm trying to say and of course, express it more clearly.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

"Of course" is a very generous assumption on your part, but thanks.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

As the article states, '_canadians love lining up_'. 😕🐏🐏🐏🐏🐏🐏🐏


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

I was taught "Zipper Merge" in Driver's Ed. Although, I don't think my instructor called it that... but it was a while ago. (And, I used to teach Drivers Ed)

If everyone understands, and _a-hem_, respects Zipper-Merge, it works wonderfully. The a-hole who tries to piggyback into the same gap as the guy in front was given, or the a-hole who *should* be the car to leave a gap decides to "slam the door" it will not work. It looks like "jumping the que" but it really isn't. If done correctly, it can even be done at a fairly good speed as well. Without having to be trained as a "Snow Bird". 

This goes along with the D*ckhead driving in the passing saying "_I'm already doing 110... they can go around if they want to go faster_". WRONG! 
The D*ckhead who doesn't understand how a Round-About works.. 
The commercial truck in the passing lane. That is a ticket-able offence by the way. 

Driving is not easy, but there are things out there that make it manageable. If you do not educate yourself on them, we all suffer.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Milkman said:


> Often a zipper merge is the most efficient way to decrease lanes, but there are many times when clearly posted lane reduction signs are ignored until the very last moment and people who could easily merge into the remaining lane(s) decide instead to gun it to the head of the line and enter the lane ahead of those who heeded the signs and merged at the earliest chance.



And here we have an example of someone spouting off despite having no clue what a zipper merge entails.

In a zipper merge you are _supposed_ to wait until the very last minute, when your lane ends, to merge. You are _not _supposed to do so at the earliest chance.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Milkman said:


> There has been a construction zone in my frequent driving path for months. They're rebuilding the infrastructure for a main thouroughfare.
> 
> People who live in the neighborhood and who KNOW the lanes are decreased at certain spots and who STILL get in the wrong lane and zip ahead of those who dutifully merged as soon as it was safe to so don't really impress me.
> 
> ...



Studies have shown that doing so (going to the end and zipper merging) is the most efficient way to keep traffic moving. I know it feels like cheating, but that's actually the official best practise (though not law). I'm all for the zipper merge with some reasonable caveats, like those people who specifically get out of their lane to move up in the closing one can eat smeg. But if , like, you make a right onto that street and stay in the right lane until the merge, that's legit. Lane jockeying is (DUI excepted) the leading cause of accidents.

What really surprised me the other day was when some VIP decided that parked cars up ahead meant he was entitled to a zipper merge (after he jockeyed into the right lane to get ahead but even ignoring that). HELLS NO. You knew that was there (as if there will be no cars parked on Queen st in Toronto) and it's not a forced merge/lane reduction but regular traffic at regular speed and regular parking. People seem to forget that traffic in a lane has right of way in that lane over anyone not in that lane. I mean it's not even as if that is somehow counter-intuitive - common ass sense. Entitlement is a hall of a drug. 

What's really starting to piss me off is people who are pulled over just jumping out in front of you without warning. Usually standing in a bike lane to begin with, no signal, and nobody behind me - what are those asshats thinking? It's usually not major streets (because then people are careful) - the Distillery is the worst for this. They'll jump in front of you, you have to hammer the brakes and then wait for them to make a U turn all while there was nobody else behind you. It's even worse when you're on a bike. Somehow they think the best time to get moving is when I'm passing them - like sorry you missed the chance to get in front of me, but in 2 seconds I'll be right out of your way and you'll pass me easily. I know there's enough space for both of us, but what I don't know is that you've seen me, and I would appreciate a signal to warn me vs the surprise. One dude tried to start a fight with me over it. He was high AF too - looked like a Nick Nolte mugshot (got out of his car and everything which usually never happens - like people will talk all sorts of smack from the safety of their SUVs). Turns out it was the parent of a kid in the same school as mine. I didn't recognise him because usually he's all dappered up.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

In Winnipeg, on Pembina Hwy when there was construction in the northbound lanes, if drivers were to have zipper-merged it would have blocked traffic for those going to Jubilee Ave. That would have decreased overall traffic flow.

On a highway, there is no reason to expect a zipper-merge to increase the traffic flow. The reason you’re stopped and not just slowing down has to be beyond the merge point, if it were not, it wouldn’t make any difference when you merged, there woiuld always be a space.

So the zipper-merge will increase the capacity of the road to hold cars, will mitigate problems beyond the previous intersection but only to the capacity of the road, only before the merge point and only if the lanes used have no other purpose. It will not speed you along.

And any benefit of the zipper-merge could be achieved by drivers be courteous and not encroaching on intersections.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

If everybody chilled a bit we'd gave far fewer accidents. The zipper js the best and proper way but if I have a chance to merge safely before the merge point I do. If someone else doesn't and they get in few cars ahead of me. What is the big deal with that?


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Zipper merge is the proper way to keep things moving when two lanes reduce to one lane for any reason. People get too worked up over driving and about entitlement over where people are in some fleeting "line up" that won't exist in another 60 seconds anyway. Really, that's a hill worth dying on? We sure do love to judge lol. And yes, I know I'm doing it right now. I've generally had a much more pleasant driving experience since I learned to let those kinds of things go. I'm not going to teach the person in the other car anything by blocking their way, anyway. They're just gonna think I'm the asshole...


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

SWLABR said:


> The D*ckhead who doesn't understand how a Round-About works..



Never make assumptions.

The D*ckhead who doesn't understand how a Round-About works may actually understand them well and use them in nations where space is a more serious problem.

I'm probably a dickhead, but not for that reason.

I just hate the f#%king things.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Sure, people not letting people in is a problem. People trying to race to the head of the line is a problem.

However, let’s not forget the asshat who has 400-800 or more metres to get close to or better than highway speeds but only seems to manage to get to 60 before attempting to merge with traffic going 30-50 km/h faster. Hey numb nuts, it’s much easier to merge when you’re going just a little faster than the traffic you’re merging into. Why do you think they gave you this long lane and it wasn’t just a right hand turn at a stop sign?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

JBFairthorne said:


> Sure, people not letting people in is a problem. People trying to race to the head of the line is a problem.
> 
> However, let’s not forget the asshat who has 400-800 or more metres to get close to or better than highway speeds but only seems to manage to get to 60 before attempting to merge with traffic going 30-50 km/h faster. Hey numb nuts, it’s much easier to merge when you’re going just a little faster than the traffic you’re merging into. Why do you think they gave you this long lane and it wasn’t just a right hand turn at a stop sign?


Yes, people merging on to a highway at 80 kmph is a head scratcher.

People are supposed to get over if they can, but that's not always possible. You should be doing 100 or 110 when you merge.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

jdto said:


> Zipper merge is the proper way to keep things moving when two lanes reduce to one lane for any reason. People get too worked up over driving and about entitlement over where people are in some fleeting "line up" that won't exist in another 60 *minutes *anyway. Really, that's a hill worth dying on?


Fixed that for you. We are in the GTA after all.....................


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Milkman said:


> Never make assumptions.


It was a safe assumption considering the fact that you don't know how a simple zipper merge works.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

colchar said:


> Fixed that for you. We are in the GTA after all.....................


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Signage.
That's pretty much the whole issue. @cheezyridr explained why zipper merge is better and how it's supposed to work. If everybody is on board, learns it, and the signage is correct, then there will be no issues.
Same with traffic circles. 
I understand @Milkman & @mhammer 's concerns when the signage indicates lane ending rather than zipper merge, but these are problems with signage and implementation, not the concept.
Imagine it like you don't know which lane is ending.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Milkman said:


> You seem to get what I'm trying to say and of course, express it more clearly.



being eloquent doesn't make him less wrong.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Let's consider the derivation of the term itself. How does a zipper work? One element of each half of the zipper is nudged into place, in interlocking fashion, between two elements of the other half. When all the elements of one side are interlocked with all the elements of the other side, we have a secure closure.

So, a zipper merge that actually behaves like the thing it is named after - multiple vehicles from two lanes methodically interleaving to form one lane - is a wonderful thing. What Milkman, Diablo, and myself get so pissed about is NOT the proper functioning of a proper zipper merge. Rather, it is drivers who egocentrically exploit the generosity of others under the *ruse* of a zipper merge, that is simply them ignoring their many opportunities to safely and efficiently merge without impeding anyone else, because they're too fricking self-centred to be in line with.everybody else, and wish to be at the front of the line by any means possible. That is NOT a zipper merge.

And it's not signage (although that sometimes contributes to congestion in general). I have no quarrel with zipper merges when a bunch of drivers find out much too late that their lane is ending. I've been in plenty, and people are usually polite about it, making space for vehicles that have to merge.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

So if there’s a long empty lane, people should just line up in the other lane and back traffic up further? I’m not getting it. Fill both lanes until the space isn’t available and then merge. That will move traffic better than one long line of cars.


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## polyslax (May 15, 2020)

I don't want to inject too much levity into this serious driving conundrum, but when I see the words zipper and merge together it makes me think of one thing:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> being eloquent doesn't make him less wrong.


Nor does an aversion to capital letters.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

polyslax said:


> I don't want to inject too much levity into this serious driving conundrum, but when I see the words zipper and merge together it makes me think of one thing:



WE'VE GOT A BLEEDER!!!


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Milkman said:


> WE'VE GOT A BLEEDER!!!


"Was it the frank or the beans?"


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

How’d you get the bean above the frank?!?!


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Milkman said:


> Nor does an aversion to capital letters.


that's correct, but you know what does? the fact that the d.o.t. spent billions of dollars studying it and came to the same conclusion i did, long before i started driving. also the fact that the video posted by laristotle echoed everything i previously posted. so, there's that. even when confronted by strong evidence to the contrary, many of you refuse to accept what is true, because you don't like it. (which, i would also point out, i addressed in the first few sentences of my earlier post)

at this time i would also like to draw a parallel to the host of verboten topics which have been discussed cautiously in the past, in which many folks refused to accept something as true, only to learn later that the subject was indeed fed to people in such a way as to influence their thinking towards an incorrect conclusion. people seem to get upset with the idea that their approved narrative is wrong, and rather than change their mind to fit the facts, would rather squash the conversation in it's entirety.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

mhammer said:


> Let's consider the derivation of the term itself. How does a zipper work? One element of each half of the zipper is nudged into place, in interlocking fashion, between two elements of the other half. When all the elements of one side are interlocked with all the elements of the other side, we have a secure closure.
> 
> So, a zipper merge that actually behaves like the thing it is named after - multiple vehicles from two lanes methodically interleaving to form one lane - is a wonderful thing. What Milkman, Diablo, and myself get so pissed about is NOT the proper functioning of a proper zipper merge. Rather, it is drivers who egocentrically exploit the generosity of others under the *ruse* of a zipper merge, that is simply them ignoring their many opportunities to safely and efficiently merge without impeding anyone else, because they're too fricking self-centred to be in line with.everybody else, and wish to be at the front of the line by any means possible. That is NOT a zipper merge.
> 
> And it's not signage (although that sometimes contributes to congestion in general). I have no quarrel with zipper merges when a bunch of drivers find out much too late that their lane is ending. I've been in plenty, and people are usually polite about it, making space for vehicles that have to merge.


You don’t seem to understand how it works. You speak of opportunities to merge _but you aren’t supposed to - you are supposed to wait until the last moment as your lane ends. _You are NOT supposed to do it before then.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

jdto said:


> So if there’s a long empty lane, people should just line up in the other lane and back traffic up further? I’m not getting it. Fill both lanes until the space isn’t available and then merge. That will move traffic better than one long line of cars.


Look, if folks evenly split into two lanes and zipper merged, that would be...okay. It wouldn't be efficient because human decision-making time gets added into the equation. "Your turn to go, or mine? Okay, YOU go." That, multiplied by however many cars are involved,adds to the total time required for the vehicles to move. If all cars are in one line and keep moving, then things move along nicely. If there ends up being two lines of cars, a zipper merge is the most efficient way to clear that traffic. If there is one long line with an empty lane beside it, and you drive quickly to the end to insist on merging, YOU benefit, but everybody else behind the driver you cut in front of loses.

I will stick with my contention that, yes, there are plenty of circumstances where a zipper merge IS entirely appropriate and the most efficient way to get traffic moving. But there are also plenty of circumstances where it is NOT called for and is simply exploited by inconsiderate drivers who have no interest in the overall flow of traffic, only the extent to which they can exploit it. My guess is their turn sign switch is also gathering dust.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Most of the people driving in Toronto could barely do up the zipper in their pants never mind negotiate their way into a freeway without fucking it up.

I like traffic circles though; I like to see how fast I can get around them.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

colchar said:


> You don’t seem to understand how it works. You speak of opportunities to merge _but you aren’t supposed to - you are supposed to wait until the last moment as your lane ends. _You are NOT supposed to do it before then.


No. But I suspect we are imagining two different scenarios. 

If two lanes are somewhat congested, and one's own is coming to an end and has a line of cars, YES, you're quite correct. You *don't* force your way into the adjacent lane, but wait until you get to the front of the lane you're in (i.e., the end), and merge there. Again, that's why it is called a "zipper" merge, not a random lane change. If one has ever tried to close a zipper by beginning from the middle of it, the folly of doing so is quickly evident - the *end* of the lane is the *start* of the zipper.

However, if one is on a service road, accelerating in hopes of joining the flow of traffic, you DO NOT drive until your lane ends and *then* merge. You merge into the adjacent lane at the first available safe opportunity, and other drivers know to leave space for that. If they don't let you merge prior to that, and force you to continue until the end of the lane, then the fault is clearly theirs.

The jerks I dislike are the ones that actually MAKE traffic flow slow down by NOT availing themselves of opportunities to merge with a lane that is moving well _and _provides space for merges as the speed of traffic. They speed until they can go no further and then expect OTHERS to slow down and let them cut in. Such drivers completely misunderstand the purpose and effectiveness of a TRUE zipper merge. My contempt is for drivers who believe that ANY time they wish to advance as fast as they can to the end of a lane, and THEN cut in, corresponds to a zipper merge. It doesn't.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

cheezyridr said:


> people seem to get upset with the idea that their approved narrative is wrong, and rather than change their mind to fit the facts, would rather squash the conversation in it's entirety


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Wardo said:


> I like traffic circles though; I like to see how fast I can get around them.


There are circumstances where they work well, and others where they don't. My son pointed out to me that one of the environmental benefits of traffic circles is that one does not sit idling at lights, hence generating less exhaust fumes, compared to simply moving around the circle.

One of the other perks of circles - the ones that are well-situated and well-understood - is thattiming of traffic lights becomes moot. How often have you sat at an intersection that takes you 3 or more light-changes to get through, because the timing of things like advance greens is simply insufficient for the volume of traffic at that time of day or in that direction. If everyone moves around the circle in an orderly fashion, you don't have to wait for yet another change of lights, and especially for the person who was too preoccupied with something to notice that they now have a green light, thereby "wasting" it.

But again, circles don't work fabulously everywhere, so stick 'em where they can be expected to work well, not just because.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)




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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

OMG! If I got upset every time I saw someone make an ahole move while driving my stress levels would be through the roof. You all need to accept that there are quite a few aholes. If you take a course in race car driving you will quickly learn that we all have a lot of bad habits and are nowhere near as good a driver as we think we are. Chill out and pay attention to your own driving rather than stressing about someone else’s driving.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

laristotle said:


>


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

mhammer said:


> No. But I suspect we are imagining two different scenarios.
> 
> If two lanes are somewhat congested, and one's own is coming to an end and has a line of cars, YES, you're quite correct. You *don't* force your way into the adjacent lane, but wait until you get to the front of the lane you're in (i.e., the end), and merge there. Again, that's why it is called a "zipper" merge, not a random lane change. If one has ever tried to close a zipper by beginning from the middle of it, the folly of doing so is quickly evident - the *end* of the lane is the *start* of the zipper.
> 
> ...


Accelerating to join traffic is a completely different scenario and has nothing to do with a zipper merge so I have no idea why you are even talking about it. They are two completely different things.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Kerry Brown said:


> OMG! If I got upset every time I saw someone make an ahole move while driving my stress levels would be through the roof. You all need to accept that there are quite a few aholes. If you take a course in race car driving you will quickly learn that we all have a lot of bad habits and are nowhere near as good a driver as we think we are. Chill out and pay attention to your own driving rather than stressing about someone else’s driving.



Training to race means nothing. One of the winners of the Molson Indy got ticketed for speeding on his way to the airport after the race, and an Indy 500 winner was ticketed twice on one road trip.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

cheezyridr said:


>


Apparently, over 300 '69 Chargers were destroyed filming that series.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

laristotle said:


> Apparently, over 300 '69 Chargers were destroyed filming that series.
> View attachment 392220


are you expecting me to believe that those cars couldn't jump snakeskin gulch? they could jump that gulch 3 times an episode and not even need bodywork! everyone knows that! 


seriously though, what a tragedy


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

You’ve gotta remember though that when that show was made, they were just some shitty, gas guzzling, 11 or 12 year old beaters. They didn’t have the collectibility they do now.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

mhammer said:


> Let's consider the derivation of the term itself. How does a zipper work? One element of each half of the zipper is nudged into place, in interlocking fashion, between two elements of the other half. When all the elements of one side are interlocked with all the elements of the other side, we have a secure closure.
> 
> So, a zipper merge that actually behaves like the thing it is named after - multiple vehicles from two lanes methodically interleaving to form one lane - is a wonderful thing. What Milkman, Diablo, and myself get so pissed about is NOT the proper functioning of a proper zipper merge. Rather, it is drivers who egocentrically exploit the generosity of others under the *ruse* of a zipper merge, that is simply them ignoring their many opportunities to safely and efficiently merge without impeding anyone else, because they're too fricking self-centred to be in line with.everybody else, and wish to be at the front of the line by any means possible. That is NOT a zipper merge.
> 
> And it's not signage (although that sometimes contributes to congestion in general). I have no quarrel with zipper merges when a bunch of drivers find out much too late that their lane is ending. I've been in plenty, and people are usually polite about it, making space for vehicles that have to merge.


An image is worth a thousand words
View attachment 392234


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Wow. Fourth page. 

Zipper merges are great. Passing on the right is illegal in most circumstances. Combining those two principles should make everyone happy.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Paul Running said:


> An image is worth a thousand words
> View attachment 392234
> View attachment 392238


Really? Looks like no merge I’ve EVER seen. Entirely irrelevant. It doesn’t demonstrate any real world situation. In that case both lanes are ending and merging into a new lane. In the real world, one lane ends and merges into an ongoing lane. It’s the sense of ownership of the ongoing lane, for lack of a better phrase, that causes the issue. “This is my lane, sorry that yours is ending, you figure it out.”


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Does a 3D representation help?


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Paul Running said:


> Does a 3D representation help?
> View attachment 392263



I am about 75% colour blind so cannot see 3D images. I am therefore triggered by you posting that as you have infringed on the rights of myself and everyone else who is differently colour sighted. I demand a safe space full up puppies and rainbows. Oh. Wait. Rainbows will be an issue because of my colour blindness. Fuck. Well in that case I demand an end to colours of all kinds because of the micro-aggression you have perpetrated against me and my kind!!!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

colchar said:


> Accelerating to join traffic is a completely different scenario and has nothing to do with a zipper merge so I have no idea why you are even talking about it. They are two completely different things.


Absolutely correct. Which is why some of us get irritated by people who* think* they are doing the one, when they are really doing the other. That's why I said you and I are thinking about two different scenarios.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

colchar said:


> You don’t seem to understand how it works. You speak of opportunities to merge _but you aren’t supposed to - you are supposed to wait until the last moment as your lane ends. _You are NOT supposed to do it before then.


What about when in 3 lanes a lane merging in from the right creates a 4th merge lane, for the people getting onto the 401 from say Brock Road. Do I leave my right lane, crossing a solid white line, and accelerate as fast as possible to then merge in front of the 20 cars I just blew past? Because that's what happens here... it's a crazy LeMans start as to who gets into that merge lane first.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

tomee2 said:


> What about when in 3 lanes a lane merging in from the right creates a 4th merge lane, for the people getting onto the 401 from say Brock Road. Do I leave my right lane, crossing a solid white line, and accelerate as fast as possible to then merge in front of the 20 cars I just blew past? Because that's what happens here... it's a crazy LeMans start as to who gets into that merge lane first.



Again, that is different. That is about accessing a highway, getting up to highway speed, etc. A zipper merge applies when traveling on a highway or road and a lane is coming to an end due to construction, end of the lane (northbound 410 is full of these), etc.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Paul Running said:


> Does a 3D representation help?
> View attachment 392263




Is that some smart ass, passive aggressive question or were you being sincere?

I’m not an idiot. I don’t need a 3d image. Especially when the 3d image is entirely different from the original image. The 3d image is more like a real world situation, the first image wasn’t. If you can’t see the difference between the two different situations then I just don’t know what to say. The issue wasn’t the dimensions. The issue was that the first image had no basis as a real world merge. When have you ever seen two lanes merge like that?


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

mhammer said:


> Absolutely correct. Which is why some of us get irritated by people who* think* they are doing the one, when they are really doing the other. That's why I said you and I are thinking about two different scenarios.



Then why are you bringing up the other scenario when we are talking about a zipper merge? All you are doing is confusing the issue.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

JBFairthorne said:


> Is that some smart ass, passive aggressive question or were you being sincere?
> 
> I’m not an idiot. I don’t need a 3d image. Especially when the 3d image is entirely different from the original image. The 3d image is more like a real world situation, the first image wasn’t. If you can’t see the difference between the two different situations then I just don’t know what to say. The issue wasn’t the dimensions. The issue was that the first image had no basis as a real world merge. When have you ever seen two lanes merge like that?



Wouldn't there be lots of situations where two lanes merged into one like that? I can think of a few places here in Brampton where that sort of thing happens (especially now that there are fucking bike lanes all over the place despite nobody ever using them!). It may not have been the right image for a discussion of the zipper merge, but that scenario does happen.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

colchar said:


> here in Brampton


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

JBFairthorne said:


> Is that some smart ass, passive aggressive question or were you being sincere?
> 
> I’m not an idiot. I don’t need a 3d image. Especially when the 3d image is entirely different from the original image. The 3d image is more like a real world situation, the first image wasn’t. If you can’t see the difference between the two different situations then I just don’t know what to say. The issue wasn’t the dimensions. The issue was that the first image had no basis as a real world merge. When have you ever seen two lanes merge like that?


The first one is a schematic diagram and the second one is a layout drawing, done on 3D Paint, using the 3D feature.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)




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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Here's the venturi effect, I believe that it is similar to the zipper effect:








If you try to defy the laws of physics...you will not succeed for very long.
If you drive the highways in the US, you can imagine this effect. Many highway systems surrounding large Metropolitan areas, will have traffic merging on both left and right sides...and there is very little traffic delay.
Richmond, Virginia is a comparable size to Ottawa.
My wife and I have driven many times through Richmond and I estimate that it is a factor of 3 less time than going through Ottawa.
Richmond drivers are proficient to the Zipper merge...they understand the mechanics behind this phenomenon.
Take into account that the US highway system is more complex than ours.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

laristotle said:


> View attachment 392345


My Ex?!?!? Yep. You'd put your life in your hands if we were driving to the corner store. My wife now?? She's a fantastic driver. I'm totally relaxed in the passenger seat.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

laristotle said:


>


Must be a North American. "_What the hell is that big giant bump doing in the middle of the road_?!?!?!"


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

What I hate is when some one is int he lane that continues & they get out of that lane & zoom by people & force their way in ahead of a few cars.

One time I looked in my rear view mirror & saw a truck doing that--but when he got to the front & tried to get ahead of me there wasn't enough space--so I sped up.
He didn't like it--btu there wasn't enough room for him to get in.
When it went back to 2 lanes I kept an eye on him.
Sure enough he zoomed to the other lane, got in front of me & hit the brakes.
But I was ready for him, and the guy that was behind him, and now behind me wasn't tailgating me.
After that the zoomed off and I saw some weaving in & out.

A day or so later I saw him doing the same thing--btu this time I was behind him, so it don't affect me directly.
And I saw him later as well.
However that route wasn't the one I normally sued, but my normal route had construction on it.
Fortunately it wasn't long before I could use it again--so I don't know if he was still doing the same thing, but I have my suspicions.
So it wasn't like he was in a rush one day--he drove like that all the time.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Paul Running said:


> Richmond drivers are proficient to the Zipper merge...they understand the mechanics behind this phenomenon. Take into account that the US highway system is more complex than ours.


Moreover, concealed carry is legal in Virginia; that might have something to do with it ... lol


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

Unlike the Venturi effect, there is no way you are going speed up while reducing the number of lanes.

The heat-loss could represent how you would have to stretch cars, or smoosh them together, in order to get that to work.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Zipper merging removes the element of people exploiting the situation where a lane is ending at a bottleneck. There is no need to show which lane is ending, it just creates that opportunity to exploit.
As long as there is *notification to use zipper merge *and everyone knows how it works, there is no problem.
If you hate people jumping ahead of the queue, you should be demanding the zipper merge.
.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Wardo said:


> I like traffic circles though; I like to see how fast I can get around them.


they're lots of fun on a bike. once i was leading a handful of guys on a ride. of course I HAD TO take them around the entire circle twice, just to piss them off


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Good one, fun being the leader eh, that's the beauty of the roundabout, if you miss your exit, you just circle again.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Does that make one 'the circle jerk'?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

laristotle said:


> Apparently, over 300 '69 Chargers were destroyed filming that series.
> View attachment 392220



I never watched the show, but that's a good start.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

cheezyridr said:


> they're lots of fun on a bike. once i was leading a handful of guys on a ride. of course I HAD TO take them around the entire circle twice, just to piss them off


This one would be a riot on a bike tour, how many riders would still be with you after 10 circles?


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Paul Running said:


> This one would be a riot on a bike tour, how many riders would still be with you after 10 circles?
> View attachment 392424



That is completely fucked, particularly the way they cut across traffic in the outer circle.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

Paul Running said:


> Good one, fun being the leader eh, that's the beauty of the roundabout, if you miss your exit, you just circle again.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Milkman said:


> You should be doing 100 or 110 when you merge.


And that right there is why I'm not a fan of the "zipper merge". Doing 100 as you approach the very end of your lane is not particularly safe - especially if the guy beside you decides to not let you in.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> And that right there is why I'm not a fan of the "zipper merge". Doing 100 as you approach the very end of your lane is not particularly safe - especially if the guy beside you decides to not let you in.


They will never implement zipper merge for those types of situations. It is for bottlenecks.
All this talk about zipper merges not working where they are never going to be implemented is just straw man stuff.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Guitar players/gear collectors must have high auto insurance policies and accident rates considering it seems so complicated to figure the difference between a zipper merge and merging into flowing traffic in open lanes.

This thread proves this forum is a lot like Arizona, a bunch of old men just backing into things as a cue to go forward and then babbling about things that make no sense.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Paul Running said:


> Here's the venturi effect, I believe that it is similar to the zipper effect:
> View attachment 392350
> 
> If you try to defy the laws of physics...you will not succeed for very long.
> ...


I don't think driver habits explain it all though.
Ottawa has had a policy of build or upgrade as few roads as possible for the past 20 years, to push drivers to public transit. It was part if the Ottawa 2020 plan in the early 2000s. 
Up here they build new developments, then build the roads 2 or 3 years later, or 10.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

tdotrob said:


> Guitar players/gear collectors must have high auto insurance policies and accident rates considering it seems so complicated to figure the difference between a zipper merge and merging into flowing traffic in open lanes.


I think the trouble is in attempting to explain something that in practice is really quite simple and intuitive.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Well, results are in, and the conclusion is clear: drivers other than one's self are idiots, and persons other than one's age group are morons.

I am SO glad we've cleared that up, so that we can get back to talking about Les Pauls. It feels like we've been on a long dusty gravel detour road, waiting to rejoin the paved highway again.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Yea that’s about it in a nutshell.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)




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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

mhammer said:


> Well, results are in, and the conclusion is clear: drivers other than one's self are idiots, and persons other than one's age group are morons.


do you live under a rock? this has been accepted science since the model T in 1908


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Sure, it was accepted in the _popular_ press. But it wasn't *peer-reviewed*. We now have the evidence, acquired through top-notch methodology. And keep in mind we didn't have all that much data to work with in 1908. We now have truly BIG data to work with.

BTW, I have a Tesla parked in my driveway at the moment. Belongs to an old friend of our son out in Halifax. The friend drove up here for a job interview, and flew out to spend some time with our son and see Halifax. This morning, he remembered that his laptop was in the "frunk" (the trunk under the front hood) and he was worried about the cold wreaking havoc with the laptop battery, so he called and asked if I could get it out and bring it inside. "But how can I get in?", I asked. Turned out he could lock and unlock the car remotely...from Halifax.

And no, I did not ride in the vehicle at all, but our son did. Did not like the way the user has to go menu-diving on the big touch-screen to do things that would be easier to accomplish with a button or handle.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Drove from toronto to Waterloo today to check out a guitar. Wall to wall transport trucks with cars cutting in and out of lanes. Not a place to be messing with nested menus on a touch screen.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

I lived in Waterloo for a decade so did the drive from the GTA all the time. I also lived in the GTA one term while attending the University of Waterloo so had to do the commute. It was terrible, and I would never take the 401. I always took Bovaird Dr. which becomes Highway #7. It took a bit longer, but was a much nicer drive.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

The highway drive doesn’t bother me as long as it’s moving about 100 or more but what I didn’t know is that there’s about 10 miles or so of the 401 right now that’s all dug up and in some places it’s down to two lanes with a lot of merging and that dumb ass zipper shit ain’t gonna help .. lol


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

mhammer said:


> Sure, it was accepted in the _popular_ press. But it wasn't *peer-reviewed*.


Peer review ain't all it is cracked up to be.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

"Zipper Merge" is just a term an impractical theory out of school. In practice it requires physically-connected elements (ie: the material in the zipper) to coordinate the teeth meshing. Drawings shown are more akin to the behavior of fluids than solids (especially independent ones). As far as saving anything if it could work? I don't think so. If you pinch a hose and restrict it's flow it doesn't matter where in the length of the hose you pinch if the total restriction is the same then the total reduction at the end of the hose will be the same.

Moving on, we have a new cloverleaf design being implemented here at the QEW/Glendale exit. It's quite something - actually making you drive on the wrong side of the road for lengths of it. Can't wait to see how it actually pans out - and how many accidents are caused because - people. The "Diverging Diamond":


https://www.niagararegion.ca/projects/qew-glendale-interchange/pdf/design-and-streetscaping.pdf


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

allthumbs56 said:


> "Zipper Merge" is just a term an impractical theory out of school. In practice it requires physically-connected elements (ie: the material in the zipper) to coordinate the teeth meshing. Drawings shown are more akin to the behavior of fluids than solids (especially independent ones). As far as saving anything if it could work? I don't think so. If you pinch a hose and restrict it's flow it doesn't matter where in the length of the hose you pinch if the total restriction is the same then the total reduction at the end of the hose will be the same.
> 
> Moving on, we have a new cloverleaf design being implemented here at the QEW/Glendale exit. It's quite something - actually making you drive on the wrong side of the road for lengths of it. Can't wait to see how it actually pans out - and how many accidents are caused because - people. The "Diverging Diamond":
> 
> ...


Sometimes it's the inconsistency, in an environment where one has grown accustomed to "universals" that result in driver error. For instance, we are generally accustomed to the rightmost lane being the exit lane. But in some cases, for whatever cost-reduction engineering purpose, the exit lane is on the left. If one is highly familiar with that thoroughfare, it becomes straightforward. But if it is a foreign locale for you, and the signage is poor, you can find yourself having to adjust at the last moment, and that's where some accidents occur.

When we lived in Edmonton, the signage drove me crazy. It was placed in anticipation of the viewing distance of someone in a pickup truck, who is seated up high. If you were in a low-to-the-ground passenger vehicle, you generally couldn't see the sign until the very last second, partly because your view was blocked by all those trucks and SUVs who could see farther. I wasted a lot of time being forced to turn when my intention was to drive straight.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

Wardo said:


> Drove from toronto to Waterloo today to check out a guitar. Wall to wall transport trucks with cars cutting in and out of lanes. Not a place to be messing with nested menus on a touch screen.





colchar said:


> I lived in Waterloo for a decade so did the drive from the GTA all the time. I also lived in the GTA one term while attending the University of Waterloo so had to do the commute. It was terrible, and I would never take the 401. I always took Bovaird Dr. which becomes Highway #7. It took a bit longer, but was a much nicer drive.





Wardo said:


> The highway drive doesn’t bother me as long as it’s moving about 100 or more but what I didn’t know is that there’s about 10 miles or so of the 401 right now that’s all dug up and in some places it’s down to two lanes with a lot of merging and that dumb ass zipper shit ain’t gonna help .. lol


This is my daily commute Gents. From just behind Pearson to Ayr. 
And, because I’m south of the 401, there are no backroads option. Under 50min in the morning, 90+ on the way home.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

mhammer said:


> Sometimes it's the inconsistency, in an environment where one has grown accustomed to "universals" that result in driver error. For instance, we are generally accustomed to the rightmost lane being the exit lane. But in some cases, for whatever cost-reduction engineering purpose, the exit lane is on the left. If one is highly familiar with that thoroughfare, it becomes straightforward. But if it is a foreign locale for you, and the signage is poor, you can find yourself having to adjust at the last moment, and that's where some accidents occur.
> 
> When we lived in Edmonton, the signage drove me crazy. It was placed in anticipation of the viewing distance of someone in a pickup truck, who is seated up high. If you were in a low-to-the-ground passenger vehicle, you generally couldn't see the sign until the very last second, partly because your view was blocked by all those trucks and SUVs who could see farther. I wasted a lot of time being forced to turn when my intention was to drive straight.


The signs are placed where roadway design guidelines say they should be, not because people drive pickup trucks. 
The same sign placement problem exists right here in Ottawa, yet it's Edmonton and pickup trucks that serve as your example?


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I would be all for a drone that hovers over traffic and shoots people* who don't respect the zipper merge. 

after a few casualties, I think we'd all be good.


*when I say "shoots people", I'm picturing the scene from robocop where the robot goes psychotic in a board room and fucks everybody up.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

tomee2 said:


> The signs are placed where roadway design guidelines say they should be, not because people drive pickup trucks.
> The same sign placement problem exists right here in Ottawa, yet it's Edmonton and pickup trucks that serve as your example?


I don't know if guidelines are or aren't consistent across provinces. What I do know is that, when we lived in Edmonton, in contrast to Ottawa, trucks were a more common vehicle than sedans, and that made for a lot of last second oh-shit-I couldn't-see-that-sign. Well-behaved at the traffic circles, mind you, and always polite when it came to pedestrians wishing to cross the street, but that didn't make them any easier to see over, around, or through. But this is off-topic. My bad.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i'm just surprised to see this thread still going


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I haven’t read any of it; what’s it about anyway .. lol


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

cheezyridr said:


> i'm just surprised to see this thread still going


You're surprised to see longevity in a thread complaining about other drivers? 😉


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)




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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

mhammer said:


> I don't know if guidelines are or aren't consistent across provinces. What I do know is that, when we lived in Edmonton, in contrast to Ottawa, trucks were a more common vehicle than sedans, and that made for a lot of last second oh-shit-I couldn't-see-that-sign. Well-behaved at the traffic circles, mind you, and always polite when it came to pedestrians wishing to cross the street, but that didn't make them any easier to see over, around, or through.


And this made you believe that signs were placed based on the view from pickup trucks?!?! Sweet Jebus, that is an assumption with absolutely no basis in fact.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

Yesterday on the drive home, I take my normal on-ramp (Mavis) to trudge my way along the 401 back into KW. The ramp crests and you can see all lanes of the 401, as you descend you can see the full run-out of the on-ramp. Normally, I see cars *already on the 401* jetting onto the on-ramp to get just that little bit ahead. It bugs me, but what can I do?? This happens daily. Yesterday however, a flatbed tractor/trailer (who must be a regular, and has predicted this nonsense) decides to straddle the lanes to block it from happening. But, he can't just stop the jumpers, he's backing up the entire on-ramp. He is literally at a stop where the ramp meets the highway. Right at the connection of the upside down Y. And, to make it even worse, the tractor/trailer behind the flatbed is on his ass. Like, he may as well have been getting a tow, he was literally that close. Which backs it up farther... further?? meh... It's way up the ramp! (farther!! confident). 
I get it... I drove professionally for years. Years, and years, and years. Drivers are jerks. They do a-hole stuff, but you are never going to stop them. They will not put the two together. It is a personal win, and nothing else. Jumpers gonna jump. But mergers need to come down the f'n ramp! 

Rant over.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

SWLABR said:


> Yesterday on the drive home, I take my normal on-ramp (Mavis) to trudge my way along the 401 back into KW. The ramp crests and you can see all lanes of the 401, as you descend you can see the full run-out of the on-ramp. Normally, I see cars *already on the 401* jetting onto the on-ramp to get just that little bit ahead. It bugs me, but what can I do?? This happens daily. Yesterday however, a flatbed tractor/trailer (who must be a regular, and has predicted this nonsense) decides to straddle the lanes to block it from happening. But, he can't just stop the jumpers, he's backing up the entire on-ramp. He is literally at a stop where the ramp meets the highway. Right at the connection of the upside down Y. And, to make it even worse, the tractor/trailer behind the flatbed is on his ass. Like, he may as well have been getting a tow, he was literally that close. Which backs it up farther... further?? meh... It's way up the ramp! (farther!! confident).
> I get it... I drove professionally for years. Years, and years, and years. Drivers are jerks. They do a-hole stuff, but you are never going to stop them. They will not put the two together. It is a personal win, and nothing else. Jumpers gonna jump. But mergers need to come down the f'n ramp!
> 
> Rant over.



Know what else is fun? Coming down the Conestoga Parkway to get on Highway #8 and some genius made the on and off ramp the same damned lane and it is only like 50 yards long!


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

colchar said:


> Know what else is fun? Coming down the Conestoga Parkway to get on Highway #8 and some genius made the on and off ramp the same damned lane and it is only like 50 yards long!


Ya, so as you are trying to goose it up to speed people trying to exit are pinning it in front of you!


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

How about 50 lanes into 4 every day:


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

SWLABR said:


> Ya, so as you are trying to goose it up to speed people trying to exit are pinning it in front of you!


I just loved that interchange when I lived in Waterloo.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Paul Running said:


> How about 50 lanes into 4 every day:
> View attachment 397031



What, and where, is that?


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

colchar said:


> What, and where, is that?


G4 Beijing–Hong Kong–Macau Expressway


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