# RIP Rosewood



## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

Well maybe. All rosewood has to be documented now. Stupid if you ask me, especially if you sell a used instrument across the border or vice versa. Oh yeah, let's document used rosewood that's already been cut down to stop companies from cutting down more trees. Why not just regulate the companies that cut the trees down? 

New CITES Regulations For All Rosewood Species


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Something doesn't ring true here. At this point in time, only woods listed under Appendix I have had shipping restrictions (Braz RW). There are a number of Appendix II woods that are used and, while endangered, there are no restrictions in shipping that I'm aware of.

So does this mean these woods are going to be elevated to Appendix I so that there are shipping restrictions or are they going to start restricting shipment of Appendix II wood products. Those of us that already own Appendix II woods would like clarification.

Here's a partial list of the woods in question:

Restricted and Endangered Wood Species | The Wood Database

_______________

We are now truely F*&ked - New CITES regs at war with guitar owners


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Maybe it's time for Richlite to take over. Martin has had great success with it and it is more stable than wood.

This is what Gibson says about Richlite although I am cynical about the expense part. That may be just Gibson trying to keep their prices up. Martin uses it on some of their less expensive guitars.

_For years, fretboards have been made out of wood because frankly, nothing was better. But then 70 years ago, there was a need for a wood replacement in aerospace and other industries where hardness, consistency, and smoothness had to be perfect. A new option called Richlite, which was based on wood products but much stronger and consistent, was developed and quickly became popular for demanding applications.

Gibson USA has always been about creating a better guitar, and back in the mid- ’90s started looking into whether there might be comparable alternatives to the conventional fretboard. None of them really panned out except for Richlite, which appeared promising. However, the question of whether to use a different fretboard material wasn’t a question to be taken lightly.

After two decades of research and discussions with guitarists, Gibson determined that Richlite was not only the best alternative to woods like ebony,* but was actually superior*. Although the downside is that it’s more expensive to make guitars with Richlite fretboards than ebony, there are some very attractive benefits._


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## Slooky (Feb 3, 2015)

I have a Martin with Richlite and I like it better. It doesn't surprise me about Gibson saying it costs more! Which it really doesn't


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

the article says it can take months to get a certificate, going to pretty well shutdown importing any guitar with rosewood on it.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

I have read the letter from Fish & Wildlife USA.
What I see in that letter is that the new regs will only be applied against individual shipments containing 10 kgs or more of the newly protected wood(s).
A single guitar is not likely to be affected.
If your fretboard weighs more than 10 kgs you'll need a chiropractor before all other concerns.
Guitar makers will be affected when sourcing their lumber supplies.
Look for new price increases on all guitars with rosewood boards.


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## losch79 (Jul 11, 2016)

That is partially correct according to the letter from Fish & Wildlife USA. The issue arises if you are selling and even purchasing an item from anyone outside of Canada made with rosewood, and ebony with the new CITES regulations. The 10kg rule is accurate as long as it "non-commercial exports" but any item bought, sold, traded on Reverb, Ebay or even Craiglist would/could be deemed a "commercial" item. As I read it (which may totally be inaccurate), any and all purchases from US to Canada and vice versa with the aforementioned materials will require CITES. I hope I am reading it wrong since I tend to buy on average 10 guitars from the US every year. I'm not sure how it will impact crossing the border with a recently purchased guitar.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

I wonder if it would apply to non-commercial guitar sales.
ie: a private sale between two private individuals.
I guess time will tell.
I'll be watching to see how this all works out.
I'm glad I won't be buying any new guitars in the immediate future.
I'd prefer to not be the guinea pig if at all possible.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

What aggravates me is the volume of garbage instruments that consume finite resources of rosewood that could otherwise be used for legitimate instruments.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

So far buying materials (other than Brazilian) is no issue, including all other Rosewoods and a couple types of Ebony, It looks like we're many years away from running out of wood, but prices are heading up.

From talking to suppliers lately I haven't heard anything that sounded like trouble for guitar owners or builders, but who know's what will happen down the road and how people will try to work the new rules to their advantage, better stock up. 

On the topic of alternative materials, paper based phenolic resin board, sometimes mistakenly called Bakelite and sold under trade names like Richlite, Trespa, PaperStone etc, has been used in instrument for years.

Fret-less upright bass boards made in what's known as '' black paper phenolic'' have been around for many years. It's an excellent material that adds massive amounts of strength, durability and stability, it's very hard and very consistent.

Aside from how you think it ''sounds'', personally I think the only downside is to me it lacks the feel of wood, also, and fairly importantly, it's harder than wood to work with and it isn't as easy to glue as wood,

You can make all sorts of stuff out of phenolic, it stinks when you cut it but machines like metal, it's a quality material and btw lacquer sticks to it like a savage and makes a really nice finish.

For example - below - Mini humbucker adapter rings machined from .375'' thick sheet. Further below - Headstock overlay, truss rod and cavity covers, pick guard, all cut from .080'' and .0625'' thick sheet.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

losch79 said:


> The 10kg rule is accurate as long as it "non-commercial exports" but any item bought, sold, traded on Reverb, Ebay or even Craiglist *would/could be deemed a "commercial" item.*


That is only true if you were in the business of buying and selling guitars under a business name. (I used to import from the USA as such). When I went to pick up my goods for resale under my business name, I was classed as commercial which I was but when I went to buy something personal, I was not.

So, even if you buy 10 guitars a year from the USA and you buy them as a personal item, you will not be classed as a commercial entity. That is true no matter where you buy them from. They may look at you differently if you were buying 5-6 at a time but that would be rare for most, if not, all of us.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

Regardless of how the levy is applied, whether when selling lumber to a manufacturer or when the manufacturer sells finished instruments to the vendor or maybe both in some cases, the consumer will see an increase in price.


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## tomsy49 (Apr 2, 2015)

dmc69 said:


> Well maybe. All rosewood has to be documented now. Stupid if you ask me, especially if you sell a used instrument across the border or vice versa. Oh yeah, let's document used rosewood that's already been cut down to stop companies from cutting down more trees. Why not just regulate the companies that cut the trees down?
> 
> New CITES Regulations For All Rosewood Species


Sounds about as silly as a carbon tax.......


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

Are you fucking kidding me?
Find someplace else to grind your axe.
Fuck me ....


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

Fretboard Journal posted a podcast recently that featured John Thomas (a certified acoustic guitar nut, author and lawyer) discussing this issue....

Podcast 127: CITES Rosewood Updates with John Thomas | Fretboard Journal

Well worth a listen, imo.


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

I can't imagine a fretboard alternative being more expensive than real deal ebony or rosewood. I mean, even Squier used 'ebanol' as the fretboard for their fretless basses. Ebanol fretboards are made by pressing sheets of paper together in a vacuum with a resin to bond them. I'd say paper and resin is far cheaper than naturally occurring ebony.

I for one would love to see more sustainable alternatives in the guitar world.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

You'd think we'd learn that we need renewable resources...


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

Budda said:


> You'd think we'd learn that we need renewable resources...


It's almost 2017 and I would have hoped people would have a better grasp on this concept, but at least we're still moving forward for the most part. I think one of the big issues with sustainable solutions in guitar making is mostly that people have become accustomed to certain features; most purists won't look at a Les Paul unless it's mahogany with maple cap and a mahogany neck. 

There are even pretty good alternatives while still using wood; baked/roasted maple has been around for years now, is far more renewable, makes great necks and it's not far off from a light colored rosewood. My 2011 melody maker has a baked maple board, and it's a great players guitar. 

I want to start seeing more carbon fibre and recycled plastics/metals used in guitar building. on another forum I frequent, one gentlemen built a very nice boutique style bass out of strips of carbon fibre laid over styrofoam wings for the body.

The technology is here, we just need it to take hold.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Not just carbon fibre, there are other sustainable products to make guitars out of. Tom Bedell's being doing it for a while. Now is there a market for it? Will there be if CITES gets draconian and prices go crazy? 

SOLD - Bedell Guitars Blackbird Vegan Orchestra - NEW


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Prices won't go crazy because we are only talking about fretboards. As for a market for guitars made out of renewable materials, it is going to be a hard sell to us humans who have a difficult time changing our buying habits.


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## Jim Soloway (Sep 27, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> Prices won't go crazy because we are only talking about fretboards. As for a market for guitars made out of renewable materials, it is going to be a hard sell to us humans who have a difficult time changing our buying habits.


We're also talking about all of the rosewood used for sides and backs on acoustics.


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## jimmy c g (Jan 1, 2008)

I think, sadly, they are locking the gate after the horse is loose, hpl anyone?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Jim Soloway said:


> We're also talking about all of the rosewood used for sides and backs on acoustics.


True, I was just thinking about electrics and forgot all about the rosewood on acoustics. That could be a different matter indeed. Thanks for bringing that to our (and my) attention.


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## losch79 (Jul 11, 2016)

The trouble I have with the enter thing, is that the issue has not been directly caused by the instrument business. Yes, one could argue they play a part, albeit a small part since most companies obtain their wood from sustainable forests. The issue with the deforestation of rosewood is brought on by the furniture or rather illegal furniture industry in countries such as China were rosewood is a prized commodity. I have been reading stories about how companies would go in and just take everything in sight without even a permit, which is horrible.

NAMM was pushing for the continuation of the Appendix II clause that would allow rosewood to be bought and sold as long as it was in a completed state without requiring CITES documentation. This would still allow for all of us to be able to sell on Ebay, Reverb etc without requiring the CITES documentation for sales outside of Canada.; any transaction on EBAY or Reverb is considered a commercial transaction whether or not you are a business entity since you are hopefully making a profit. The only end around now would be to either apply for the certificate and wait or mark everything as a gift. I've listed all of my spare rosewood necks so they can ship out before the Jan. 2/17 deadline since I am fearful they could be confiscated at the border. I'm going to sit back and see how things play out in the next few months.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

It doesn't matter who started it, we collectively need to improve the situation.


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## PTWamps (Aug 5, 2016)

Next thing you know, they'll ban ivory... then there'll be no more pianos. ^)@#


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

PTWamps said:


> Next thing you know, they'll ban ivory... then there'll be no more pianos. ^)@#


How do I get banjos and ukuleles banned?


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

In the podcast linked in another thread, it was mentioned that China was importing 350 rosewood logs per day.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

vadsy said:


> How do I get banjos and ukuleles banned?


They shoulda sterilized that Mumford guy....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Roryfan said:


> They shoulda sterilized that Mumford guy...


That guy got the hipster ball rollin' for sure, all of a sudden it was the instrument(s) that may define a generation.


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## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

We've come up with and widely use engineered stone for our countertops. Might as well go ahead with engineered woods as well, like that ebanol. Engineered stone is, btw, more durable and requires less maintenance than real stone.


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## 4Aaron GE (Jul 12, 2009)

Wait. I'm coming back home in 2018. I've got like 5 guitars here, and I'm pretty sure they've all got rosewood fingerboards. There's really only one that I'm readily willing to let go of. How will this affect me? Is there just extra paperwork to fill out now?


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## PTWamps (Aug 5, 2016)

vadsy said:


> How do I get banjos and ukuleles banned?


Don't get me started. 'Round my area there's a whole gaggle of hipster pseudo-folkies getting serious gigs reciting their diaries to ukelele accompaniment. That same crowd sneers when you show up with a tube amp and a Les Paul. What the hell happened to young folks wanting to kick out the jams and annoy their parents?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I'm sure the parents are still annoyed.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

dmc69 said:


> We've come up with and widely use engineered stone for our countertops. Might as well go ahead with engineered woods as well, like that ebanol. Engineered stone is, btw, more durable and requires less maintenance than real stone.


Not to mention it doesn't tarnish with cleaning materials as easily.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

vadsy said:


> I'm sure the parents are still annoyed.


"I didn't raise you to be no [email protected]$$y!"

Actually they did by giving everyone a trophy.....


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## Hammertone (Feb 3, 2006)

This will just shift the market from free-range hardwood to farm-raised.
Plenty of plantation hardwood already being grown.


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## GUInessTARS (Dec 28, 2007)

someone will stop that truck with the farm raised logs to give them water


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

vadsy said:


> How do I get banjos and ukuleles banned?



Banjos don't bother me by ukuleles definitely have to go.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

PTWamps said:


> Don't get me started. 'Round my area there's a whole gaggle of hipster pseudo-folkies getting serious gigs reciting their diaries to ukelele accompaniment. That same crowd sneers when you show up with a tube amp and a Les Paul. What the hell happened to young folks wanting to kick out the jams and annoy their parents?



They were afforded safe spaces and were told growing up how unique and special they all were. Now they're just pansies.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

4Aaron GE said:


> Wait. I'm coming back home in 2018. I've got like 5 guitars here, and I'm pretty sure they've all got rosewood fingerboards. There's really only one that I'm readily willing to let go of. How will this affect me? Is there just extra paperwork to fill out now?



From the link:


It does not apply to instruments shipped _within_ the borders of your country or instruments carried for personal use while traveling internationally [unless they contain more than 22 lbs. (10 kg) of the regulated woods].


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

colchar said:


> They were afforded safe spaces and were told growing up how unique and special they all were. Now they're just pansies.


Although I'm embarrassed by some of the young people these days, olds folks aren't much better. First off they raised the last generation and should have taught them how to be better parents to their children so we could have avoided this whole 'unique' mess. Kids aren't asking for trophies and ribbons, parents are giving them away because they're living their failed dreams through their kids. I wonder how that started? Secondly, as demonstrated by another current thread, plenty of you old folks are pansies looking for a safe space. "oh, but what if he confronts me in the parking lot?" 



colchar said:


> Banjos don't bother me by ukuleles definitely have to go.


I want to hate on the banjo but recently heard some rocking tunes where it was awesome, so I'm on the fence. Ukuleles can burn with the recorders.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

vadsy said:


> Although I'm embarrassed by some of the young people these days, olds folks aren't much better. First off they raised the last generation and should have taught them how to be better parents to their children so we could have avoided this whole 'unique' mess. Kids aren't asking for trophies and ribbons, parents are giving them away because they're living their failed dreams through their kids. I wonder how that started?


Some older parents did that, the rest raised us to have some balls and to realize that life ain't fair so we'd best wear a helmet.




> Secondly, as demonstrated by another current thread, plenty of you old folks are pansies looking for a safe space. "oh, but what if he confronts me in the parking lot?"



Huh?





> Ukuleles, and ukulele players, can burn with the recorders.


Fixed that for you.


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## exhausted (Feb 10, 2006)

I feel like I've stumbled into some sort of ADHD clinical trial here.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

colchar said:


> Some older parents did that, the rest raised us to have some balls and to realize that life ain't fair so we'd best wear a helmet.
> 
> 
> Huh?


If you think 'the rest' haven't had some form of impact on the current generation you're fooling yourself. I'll let you have it, send me an addy and I'll send you a ribbon in the mail.

As for the 'Huh?', I'll let you check out the other threads. I'm trying to stay out of that one, no need to argue with those guys, some of them are alright. I gotta save up all my dick attitude for other stuff.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

exhausted said:


> I feel like I've stumbled into some sort of ADHD clinical trial here.


You may have, I'm still waiting for the test results.


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

Every generation has a predisposed negative view of other generations. It's been documented. There's shitty people in every walk of life; let's leave it at that.


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## 4Aaron GE (Jul 12, 2009)

colchar said:


> From the link:
> 
> 
> It does not apply to instruments shipped _within_ the borders of your country or instruments carried for personal use while traveling internationally [unless they contain more than 22 lbs. (10 kg) of the regulated woods].


Hmmm..... 22lbs of fretboard.... how many guitars do you suppose that is?


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## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

Good news, I got an email back from Environment Canada regarding shipping used guitars across the border:



> David,
> 
> 1 permit required per shipment and there is no cost for permits in Canada.
> 
> ...


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## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

Pretty much if you are a gear slut like me and have huge turnover on guitars, might as well apply for the permits in case someone on Reverb from the States buys it when you list it.

EDIT 

whoops, permit requires recipient info too.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

dmc69 said:


> Pretty much if you are a gear slut like me and have huge turnover on guitars, might as well apply for the permits in case someone on Reverb from the States buys it when you list it.
> 
> EDIT
> 
> whoops, permit requires recipient info too.


Thx for that. I shipped a rosewood board guitar to the US on Jan 6th and was ok. I figured the rules wouldn't be enforced yet but i would rather not take a chance again.


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## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

Yeah I figure they're not really enforcing it, except for high volumes. Still. Better to be safe than sorry.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I want to get a Musikraft neck with a rosewood board, think this will be a problem?


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

vadsy said:


> I want to get a Musikraft neck with a rosewood board, think this will be a problem?


If the supplier is ready to ship to you, i suspect you will be fine. I don't think customs will go in a frenzy for low dollar items. My 2 go-to dealers for guitars in the US - One won't ship outside of the US and the other is continuing shipping in a wait and see mode.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

With the weakening of the British pound and the Euro somewhat, there are good deals to be had across the pond. My experience with the service from the UK dealers is top notch and they ship super fast.


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

Alex said:


> With the weakening of the British pound and the Euro somewhat, there are good deals to be had across the pond. My experience with the service from the UK dealers is top notch and they ship super fast.


I've been looking at a bunch of instruments on the Thomann website based in the UK, but just about every instrument I add to my cart says "this item cannot be shipped/operated at your address". Just wondering which supplier you're looking at?


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

Ronbeast said:


> I've been looking at a bunch of instruments on the Thomann website based in the UK, but just about every instrument I add to my cart says "this item cannot be shipped/operated at your address". Just wondering which supplier you're looking at?


Peach Guitars, Andertons and Worldwide Guitars ship international. Shipping cost is minimal with Peach and Andertons and free with WG. My post was in reference to retail guitars and not sure about part suppliers.


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

@Alex thanks for the heads up. I'm not incredibly familiar with UK chains. Cheers!


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

Ronbeast said:


> @Alex thanks for the heads up. I'm not incredibly familiar with UK chains. Cheers!


the Euro dealers have some deals to be had depending on what you are looking for as well. I'm looking at a few pieces from German vendors and my usual dealers can't come close. Up to 30% less with everything factored in. Hope this helps.


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## exhausted (Feb 10, 2006)

Andertons and Ishibashi have stopped shipping guitars with rosewood boards internationally.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

I received this from a a dealer this morning:

For you it would mean,that if you want to import Rosewood to Canada,you must contact the following adress
to get the permission

Cites Management
Canadian Wildlife Service
Environment Canada
Ottawa,Ontario
K1A0H3
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.cites.ca
Phone: +1(819)9384119

and the response form CWS:

_There are no Canadian CITES import permits required. The exporter of the guitars will however need to obtain a CITES export document from their country if the guitars are being shipped to you. If you pickup and bring the guitars home yourself, there would be no permits required. When items are shipped, it is difficult for us to validate the claim of personal use, so we do not allow shipments to travel under the exemption allowed for rosewood items. It is too difficult to implement correctly. _

The bottom line - if you are receiving a guitar with rosewood from outside of Canada, the shipper requires a CITES export document. No document puts the shipment at risk of being blocked.


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

I wonder where this will leave us in Canada? Most of my instrument buying has been done outside of Canada, because of the fact that prices are ridiculous here. A Fender American Professional guitar is over $2000 at L&M, MIM guitars are hitting the $1200 mark and Squier guitars can be found in the $500 range.

Now that most companies outside of Canada will no longer be shipping to Canada in order to avoid the hassle, where does that leave us? I, like a lot of other musicians I know, simply can't afford to buy from the big Canadian chains. Their instruments have been priced out of the market. I can't buy from outside of Canada unless the instrument uses specifically domestic woods, which is a seriously small percentage of instruments. The used market in my province is non existent; I haven't seen an American strat in the local classifieds in over 4 months, and mim is almost the same case.

I don't really know what the next step is. Will we be seeing more and more guitars built with domestic woods (maple etc.?) Am I forced to suck it up and just buy from L&M who's prices seem to jump over night? Will different, non-wooden, materials be used to build instruments?

I understand the importance of the CITES agreement, but it puts a serious damper on the ones most affected by it; the working musicians.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

Ronbeast said:


> I wonder where this will leave us in Canada? Most of my instrument buying has been done outside of Canada, because of the fact that prices are ridiculous here. A Fender American Professional guitar is over $2000 at L&M, MIM guitars are hitting the $1200 mark and Squier guitars can be found in the $500 range.
> 
> Now that most companies outside of Canada will no longer be shipping to Canada in order to avoid the hassle, where does that leave us? I, like a lot of other musicians I know, simply can't afford to buy from the big Canadian chains. Their instruments have been priced out of the market. I can't buy from outside of Canada unless the instrument uses specifically domestic woods, which is a seriously small percentage of instruments. The used market in my province is non existent; I haven't seen an American strat in the local classifieds in over 4 months, and mim is almost the same case.
> 
> ...


As I was saying to a friend, what am i suppose to do in my spare time now 

It will be a learning curve (how long i don't know) for most retailers but suspect it will be business as usual once they get into the routine of completing the necessary documents. Unless the component of international sales is small for a retailer, i can't see a retailer just giving up because they need to file some papers. The European dealers are way ahead on this given that these restrictions have been in place for some time - I've been dealing with a German dealer in the last few days and he was on top of all of this before i did my inquiring.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

Where i see a potential impact is for private sellers/buyers in the used market. This could be a big damper.


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

Alex said:


> Where i see a potential impact is for private sellers/buyers in the used market. This could be a big damper.


That's a very good point. I myself probably won't be selling until I know all of the details involved.

Looks like I might be switching to buying mostly pedals and amps for the next while


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## jayoldschool (Sep 12, 2013)

The solution is to go to the US and hand carry your purchase across. Buy whatever you like, ship it to the UPS Store nearest you across the border, go pick it up. The regulations do not apply for goods in your possession.


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

jayoldschool said:


> The solution is to go to the US and hand carry your purchase across. Buy whatever you like, ship it to the UPS Store nearest you across the border, go pick it up. The regulations do not apply for goods in your possession.


That's a great idea for people on the mainland. I don't think the Atlantic Ocean is as forgiving though


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

jayoldschool said:


> The solution is to go to the US and hand carry your purchase across. Buy whatever you like, ship it to the UPS Store nearest you across the border, go pick it up. The regulations do not apply for goods in your possession.


I think the spirit of the rule is for an instrument you carry while travelling, but this might work. A gung-ho guard may intervene if she (it's always a she) believes it's a purchase you had shipped. I can't believe any of my local guys would give two shits though.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

BSTheTech said:


> I think the spirit of the rule is for an instrument you carry while travelling, but this might work. A gung-ho guard may intervene if she (it's always a she) believes it's a purchase you had shipped. I can't believe any of my local guys would give two shits though.


From the agent at CWS.

_If you pickup and bring the guitars home yourself, there would be no permits required._

You would still need to clear customs and complete the paperwork.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I heard back from Musikraft and MJT today, both have applied for permits and expect to have things sorted out within the month. Just to be safe I think I'll wait until it's all clear before going ahead with the project.


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## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

I just shipped a guitar by going to Niagara Falls. Declared it at the border, customs guard didn't give a crap.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

dmc69 said:


> I just shipped a guitar by going to Niagara Falls. Declared it at the border, customs guard didn't give a crap.


Did you ship it by UPS at Packard Road?


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Ronbeast said:


> I wonder where this will leave us in Canada? Most of my instrument buying has been done outside of Canada, because of the fact that prices are ridiculous here. A Fender American Professional guitar is over $2000 at L&M, MIM guitars are hitting the $1200 mark and Squier guitars can be found in the $500 range.
> 
> Now that most companies outside of Canada will no longer be shipping to Canada in order to avoid the hassle, where does that leave us? I, like a lot of other musicians I know, simply can't afford to buy from the big Canadian chains. Their instruments have been priced out of the market. I can't buy from outside of Canada unless the instrument uses specifically domestic woods, which is a seriously small percentage of instruments. The used market in my province is non existent; I haven't seen an American strat in the local classifieds in over 4 months, and mim is almost the same case.
> 
> ...


Don't worry, there are lots of middle-aged hacks like myself that can make do with less than 20 guitars. Might be a good time to list a few.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Alex said:


> As I was saying to a friend, what am i suppose to do in my spare time now


Yikes! I might have to actually practice & learn a few new songs.



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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

So, here's a question -- are they checking everything? I am not about to risk it, but if the documentation says there is no rosewood in a product, will they open it? I know tons of counterfeit stuff gets into Canada because they can't open everything, so how would this be different, save for the "this is new, so we are going to enforce it" mentality that drops off eventually?

Don't get me wrong, I am in favour of the whole thing if it means that we save rosewood from being destroyed completely, but I am thinking the logistics of enforcing this are going to be too great to manage.


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## jayoldschool (Sep 12, 2013)

There's always a way. Have it shipped care of a friend that is going to pick up their stuff in the US. I go there every few months to pick things up, many of us do that live close to the border. Then, have them send it to you.



Ronbeast said:


> That's a great idea for people on the mainland. I don't think the Atlantic Ocean is as forgiving though


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

I got an email from the Stratosphere (US based Strat parts dealer) a few days ago stating they are no longer shipping rosewood necks to Canada. This is going to suck for us Canadians wanting to sell guitars to the US.


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## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> Did you ship it by UPS at Packard Road?


I shipped it from Cheektowaga. I was visiting Walden Galleria anyways.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

Rollin Hand said:


> So, here's a question -- are they checking everything? I am not about to risk it, but if the documentation says there is no rosewood in a product, will they open it? I know tons of counterfeit stuff gets into Canada because they can't open everything, so how would this be different, save for the "this is new, so we are going to enforce it" mentality that drops off eventually?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I am in favour of the whole thing if it means that we save rosewood from being destroyed completely, but I am thinking the logistics of enforcing this are going to be too great to manage.


The response from CWS (a few post above) is exactly that - it is impossible to check all shipments which creates the difficulty to get an exemption for the paperwork and therefore, documentation will be required. Not sure how it will be policed but if a guitar shipment doesn't have papers (which is fairly easy to check for a customs agent as they already check invoices and waybill), it could be pulled aside. I suspect in the end it will result in shipping delays (as opposed to an instrument being expropriated) but I don't want to be the first to find out.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Alex said:


> The response from CWS (a few post above) is exactly that - it is impossible to check all shipments which creates the difficulty to get an exemption for the paperwork and therefore, documentation will be required. Not sure how it will be policed but if a guitar shipment doesn't have papers (which is fairly easy to check for a customs agent as they already check invoices and waybill), it could be pulled aside. I suspect in the end it will result in shipping delays (as opposed to an instrument being expropriated) but I don't want to be the first to find out.


So then is it random spot checks? Does an all maple neck need to have documentation stating that it is all maple, nothing but maple, so help me Bob and Doug? It seems to me like this is relying on the honesty of the people doing the shipping, and that's what got us into this mess.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

Rollin Hand said:


> So then is it random spot checks? Does an all maple neck need to have documentation stating that it is all maple, nothing but maple, so help me Bob and Doug? It seems to me like this is relying on the honesty of the people doing the shipping, and that's what got us into this mess.


I don't know the process nor the logistics of it all. Maple is not subject AFAIK to any restrictions.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

dmc69 said:


> I shipped it from Cheektowaga. I was visiting Walden Galleria anyways.


That makes sense.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Was online on a Japanese site and I bought a guitar. 12 hours later they emailed me and said they didn't have the Cites stuff in place so they cancelled the transaction due to rosewood fingerboard .


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)




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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Thats it man! I am going to STONE fretboard!


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## Chris Herrod -LMI (May 9, 2017)

Canadian Luthiers! LMI has Rosewood for sale in Canada. No extra charge, no extra shipping charge, no paperwork hassles or delays. How do we do it? We are now shipping select Rosewood parts from our distribution center inside Canada. You can place any Rosewood parts (the ones marked with a maple leaf) into your online order along with any other items. One payment and one checkout. The regular items ship from California as normal and the Rosewood comes from our distribution center! www.lmii.com


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