# Deciphering an Old Switch to New Schematic... HELP!!



## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

I am attempting to build a pickgaurd from scratch. It is an HSH. I have the 3 pups, and the 3 500K pots. The switch, which might be more hassle than it's worth looks like a tank, and I'd like to use it. I bought it as a replacement to an old guitar that I fried the original while attempting my very first pup swap (in like the 90's). My skills are (at least marginally) better these days, but I like the mostly metal quality of this. But, I don't know how to transpose the schematic I have, to the switch I have. Any assistance would be great!


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Atomic bomb proof switch! I love it!

The red wires on red background make it difficult so I got out my crayons...









I'm terrible with the logic of switches...it runs in my family.

I await those who are unchallenged with switch logic to respond.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

You have to tell us what the 3 knobs are doing. Is it Master Volume/tone/tone? Where do you want tone control? Middle/ neck as per normal strat? Or do you want tone control on all 3 pups? Too many variables without more details.

The switch is pretty simple, when it is moved to the left lug 3 will connect with lug 4, middle 2 is connected to 5, and right 3 is connected to 6. So the sketch is a bit dubious to me because you don't want to connect the two hot wires from your pickups to each other when the switch is in middle position. And with volume coming out through that center lug, I don't know what you would hook 4, 5 and 6 to as they should be going to volume. If the left position truly joins lug 3 to 4 then hot wire to 3 and the 4 to volume pot then volume to tone and jack....


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

knight_yyz said:


> You have to tell us what the 3 knobs are doing. Is it Master Volume/tone/tone? Where do you want tone control? Middle/ neck as per normal strat? Or do you want tone control on all 3 pups? Too many variables without more details.


The diagram @SWLABR posted in his original post could be starting point...


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

First be sure switch's contacts are good, work fine with no resistor.
Check with ohmmeter. You must read 0 ohm


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Latole said:


> First be sure switch's contacts are good, work fine with no resistor.
> Check with ohmmeter. You must read 0 ohm


Assuming the contacts are all functional, how would you wire this switch for a Strat?


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

The schematic supplied assures no tone control for the bridge humbucker. And that is assuming it's standard V/T/T And if there is an aluminum shield you can't connect the pots that way. It's a ground loop if there is


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Bridge hot to top left lug, middle hot to left middle lug, neck to bottom left lug. all the right side lugs should go to volume pot lug 3 assuming again V/T/T


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

greco said:


> Assuming the contacts are all functional, how would you wire this switch for a Strat?


I would have to see the schematic first; with ohmeter.
We will cross the bridge once we get to the river


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

It is V-T-T

I should add, if there is a discrepancy between the pic of me and my thumb, and the one with the numbers, the thumb pic is the actual switch. And it has always been a Strat. First all single, then HSS, then HSH, then H-S. It's had a long life.


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

Being in the place of SWLABR, I wouldn't go crazy with that old switch that might not work as desired. I would buy the original Fender switch or its equivalent.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

SWLABR said:


> And it has always been a Strat. First all single, then HSS, then HSH, then H-S. It's had a long life.


OOOPS...I should have remembered reading this in your initial post. Sorry. 
I'll delete the silly part of my earlier post.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

knight_yyz said:


> Bridge hot to top left lug, middle hot to left middle lug, neck to bottom left lug. all the right side lugs should go to volume pot lug 3 assuming again V/T/T


So the centre "C" volume output lug ends up not being used at all? (just to clarify)


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I have no idea. That has me stumped. The switch need to be metered. Maybe something happens at C but it isn't necessary for this project. We just need to direct the hot wire from the pup to the volume pot. That's assuming I am correct on how the switch is working. Seems to me it is just a blade rotating X degrees so opposite poles are connected.

If the OP has an ohmmeter and pen and paper... set meter to ohm and make sure it beeps when you touch red and black probes together. Move blade to left. Red on 1, then black to 2,3,4,5,6,C and mark which combos beep. Then Red on 2 black on 3,4,5,6,then C, then red on 3 black on 4,5,6,C etc. Then all over again in middle than again switch to right. Hopefully you find P1 = 1-6, P2 = 2-5 and P3 = 3-4

If by some chance when switch is position 1 (left) and continuity turns out to be Position one is 1-C only beeps and position 2 only 2-C beeps and in position 3 only and 3-C beeps then 1 is bridge hot, 2 is middle hot, 3 is neck hot and C does go to volume. 4,5,6 would not be required.

is there a name brand anywhere on the switch? might be able to google a schematic of it


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)




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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Using the number scheme from the original post...

Lug 1 or 6 is bridge Hot
Lug 2 or 5 is middle hot
Lug 3 or 4 is neck hot
earth is soldered to the pot with all the ground wires.

You could do that the other way around, 1 is neck 2 is middle and 3 is bridge. Depends on which way the switch is sitting in the guitar.

C goes to volume pot

Lugs 4 5 and 6 go to the tone pots. How you do that depends on what tone pot is controlling which pickup. I would go with dual capacitor, one on each tone. Use middle tone for neck and bridge, use 2nd tone for bridge. So 4and 5 to middle lug on tone pot 1 and 6 goes to middle lug tone pot 2. Lug 1 on each tone pot is grounded with a cap. I suggest .022 neck and middle tone pot 1 and .010 for tone pot 2 at bridge.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

knight_yyz said:


> Using the number scheme from the original post...
> 
> Lug 1 or 6 is bridge Hot
> Lug 2 or 5 is middle hot
> ...


Well done!


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)




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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I forgot the wire from the switch ground to the volume pot.... But position 1 bridge with .010 tone cap. Position 2 is middle with .022 tone cap on tone middle knob. Neck is position 3 with .022 tone cap middle knob. 


If you don't like that and you want normal middle tone is neck and the other is middle pup the drawing is quite different. Trust me you'll love your strat with a bridge tone knob


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

knight_yyz said:


> View attachment 349842


Nice wiring diagram! (seriously)
@SWLABR Please let us know your progress with this wiring project. Thanks


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## alwaysflat (Feb 14, 2016)

Note that this is a 3 way, not a 5-way so you'll have no neck-middle or bridge-middle selection options . Good work on the diagram.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

alwaysflat said:


> Note that this is a 3 way, not a 5-way so you'll have no neck-middle or bridge-middle selection options . Good work on the diagram.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I'm not sure if the switch he has is a 3 or a 5 way. It was never stated. It could be either. This one is a 5 way advertised as vintage Samick and vintage Fernandes and a few others I am sure


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## alwaysflat (Feb 14, 2016)

Until SWLABR can confirm the number of sw detents ... I think the wiring is still the same as the diagram provided (again...good work) and if 5-way will be result will be 1,1+2, 2, 2+3, 3 for pickup combinations.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

@SWLABR 
It is all up to you now.
The pressure is on. 
We re all waiting. 
Pacing.
Smoking.
Drinking.
Mumbling.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

knight_yyz said:


> I'm not sure if the switch he has is a 3 or a 5 way. It was never stated. It could be either. This one is a 5 way advertised as vintage Samick and vintage Fernandes and a few others I am sure
> 
> View attachment 349870


It is a 5-way.



alwaysflat said:


> Until SWLABR can confirm the number of sw detents ... I think the wiring is still the same as the diagram provided (again...good work) and if 5-way will be result will be 1,1+2, 2, 2+3, 3 for pickup combinations.


Err... uhh. "sw detents". Is that the 3 or 5 question??



greco said:


> @SWLABR
> It is all up to you now.
> The pressure is on.
> We re all waiting.
> ...


I don't do well under pressure!

Guys, I cannot believe the sleuth work here. I honestly thought one of you gifted schematic readers would take one look and go: "Oh, ya, one of those... do this".

The level of community is staggering. And not just from the 3 members I quoted here. All the input has been unreal.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

wiring is the same for 3 and 5 way


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

OK. I will attempt this tonight when I get home. 

Can't thank all of you enough. 

@greco I may need you on standby! ha, ha!!!!


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I'd be happy to help. This would be a fun challenge!

Good Luck with doing the wiring and please let us know how it goes.


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

A tone pot going to the positive at output jack will work on all the pickups.

With this switch you are limited to a single pickup at a time while the possibility of choosing 2 pickups is sometimes very interesting, which is the reason why I would not install this switch with the choice of contacts too restricted .

Where I solder the ground :


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Latole said:


> With this switch you are limited to a single pickup at a time....


Are you sure about that?

The same switch has been used as a 5 way in the past.



SWLABR said:


> It is a 5-way.


@SWLABR Did you get a chance to work on this project lat evening?


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

greco said:


> @SWLABR Did you get a chance to work on this project lat evening?












I said I would, but could not. Got home home late, and straight into husband duties.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

SWLABR said:


> I said I would, but could not.


Fully understood. You are working/commuting long hours and this is certainly not a priority.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Latole said:


> A tone pot going to the positive at output jack will work on all the pickups.
> 
> With this switch you are limited to a single pickup at a time while the possibility of choosing 2 pickups is sometimes very interesting, which is the reason why I would not install this switch with the choice of contacts too restricted .
> 
> ...


What on earth are you talking about? It's a 5 way switch made for guitars. It's pretty obvious how it works, so what exactly are you worried about? There is a large blade inside that rotates when you move the lever. Right now the blade is contacting Lug 3&4, next position it is contacting blade 2&3 and 4&5, Next position is 2&5, next position is 1&2 and 5&6 and 5th position the blade only hits lugs 1&6. It's an interesting design which is much easier to follow that a fender 5 way.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

knight_yyz said:


> It's an interesting design which is much easier to follow that a fender 5 way.


I'll drink to that!


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

greco said:


> Are you sure about that?
> 
> The same switch has been used as a 5 way in the past.
> 
> ...


I see 3 positions not 5


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

CONGRATS to @SWLABR 
This has got to be the best and longest thread about switches since the inception of the forum.


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

greco said:


> CONGRATS to @SWLABR
> This has got to be the best and longest thread about switches since the inception of the forum.


When it seems simple, there are always a lot of answer


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Here you go, best i can do with paint....The dark blue is touching 4 lugs in position 2 and 4. The green line shows position 5 touching only 2 lugs. Get it now?


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Latole said:


> I see 3 positions not 5


Jimi found them. lol


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Alternate view. Blue dots are the bridge neck and middle pups hot wires. At lugs 4 5 and 6 respectively. Assuming the lever is all the way to the left, position 1 is Bridge, *position 2 is bridge and middle because the blade is touching 4 contacts *depicted by the green dot*.*. Position 3 is middle pup only because only touching 2 contacts, *Position 4 is middle and neck because it is touching 4 contacts *depicted by the red dot, and position 5 is neck because it is only touching the 2 contacts



...


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

knight_yyz said:


> Alternate view. Blue dots are the bridge neck and middle pups hot wires. At lugs 4 5 and 6 respectively. Assuming the lever is all the way to the left, position 1 is Bridge, *position 2 is bridge and middle because the blade is touching 4 contacts *depicted by the green dot*.*. Position 3 is middle pup only because only touching 2 contacts, *Position 4 is middle and neck because it is touching 4 contacts *depicted by the red dot, and position 5 is neck because it is only touching the 2 contacts
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think this actually makes sense to me!!


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

Well, thanks to the huge communal effort, I have finally wired up the new pickgaurd. Before putting on a guitar, I connected a spare input jack to test, and it is all working with the tap test. The vol & tone work in all positions, and there does not seem to be any "crackle". There are no positions 2 & 4 on the 5-way, but I don't really care. I wouldn't do any pickup combos I don't think anyway. I hope to get to the other things I wanted to address on the guitar this weekend so I can mount it and actually play it. 

So far, so good. I honestly cannot thank all of you guys enough!


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Then it is only a 3 way switch. A 5 way would have 5 detents.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

knight_yyz said:


> Then it is only a 3 way switch. A 5 way would have 5 detents.


Sorry, I see how I gaffed there. There are _physically_ positions 2 & 4, but they are dead stops. No sound (as yet). That may change once I have strings on it, but seems unlikely. I don't recall ever using those positions on my Ibanez HSH. I'm not worried about it.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

If there are 5 detents they should work. Let us know what happens when you have it strung up.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

If the contacts in the switch are like Fender's old 3-ways, one would be able to coax pos 2&4 with a little finesse.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

CONGRATS!

@knight_yyz 's hand drawn wiring diagram was the best!


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

It certainly put it into terms I could understand... and follow!!!


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

It seems weird that there are 5 detents but only 3 usable positions.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

In the "tap-test", position 1: tap, tap, tap... volume up, top tone on & off.... all good! 
Click to position 2: tap, tap, tap... volume up, tone on & off.... *nothing*
Position 3: tap, tap, tap... volume up, top tone on & off.... all good
Position 4: tap, tap, tap... volume up, tone on & off.... *nothing*
Position 5: tap, tap, tap... volume up, bottom tone on & off.... all good. 

Is it possible that because two of the three are HB's they aren't conducive to the out of phase stops?


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

what pickups are you using?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Following with interest...


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

3 styles of switches compared. I renumbered the original switch so it makes sense. On the 7 lug switch 4 is the "common" on the original switch I made 4 "common"

If you use a fender 5 way you have to put a jumper at 4 to 5. On the 8 lug you have to put a jumper from 4 to 5 as well. makes the "common" lug. 


So on all 3 switches, 1 is bridge hot, 2 is middle hot and 3 is neck hot, 4 or 4/5 goes to volume pot... Tone pots are 5, 6 and 7 but on the 8 lug it is 6, 7 and 8. Since we have 3 pups and 2 tones you can jumper the 2 pups to 1 tone...

































I'd still like to know which pickups... 4 conductor ?

Did you bend the lug on the volume pot and solder it to the case? Also try removing the ground wire from the switch. i don't think it is necessary.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)




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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

The reason I ask which pickups is it is possible you have some wires crossed. They are 4 conductor but there are actually 5 wires. Black, Red, White, Green and bare. Depending on the brand those colors mean different things. On Seymour Duncan black is hot, red and white are soldered together and put off to the side, green and bare are ground... So black wires to 1 2 and 3 {red and white to each other} and green and bare to back of the volume pot. If you have dimarzio pickups the colors change....


I'm thinking that the "earth" wire could also be causing the switch to short out at position 2 and 4. Remove that earth wire and see what happens


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

"_So on all 3 switches, 1 is bridge hot, 2 is middle hot and 3 is neck hot, 4 or 4/5 goes to volume pot... Tone pots are 5, 6 and 7 but on the 8 lug it is 6, 7 and 8. Since we have 3 pups and 2 tones you can jumper the 2 pups to 1 tone..._ "

I used your hand drawn, and I fully believe I followed the above accurately. 

The pups, are: 

N: Ultrasonic 4 lead HB wired to the original schematics. red & white together (black to hot) 
M: an unknown origins 2 lead b & w) single coil (white to hot)
B: a 4 lead SD clone also with red & white together. (black to hot) 

All grounds are as you sketched out, cap in the suggested spot. 

I tested all the pups prior to installation, and all read appropriate output.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

knight_yyz said:


> I'm thinking that the "earth" wire could also be causing the switch to short out at position 2 and 4. Remove that earth wire and see what happens


Interesting.
I wonder why only on positions 2 and 4?
Please understand that I'm not arguing with you...just curious.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

There are many ways to wire a 5 way switch. You can use it to coil split. I'm thinking the earth/ground wire at the switch is there to help you coil spilt if desired. So the next step is to remove the wire and see if 2 and 4 work


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

knight_yyz said:


> There are many ways to wire a 5 way switch. You can use it to coil split. I'm thinking the *earth/ground wire at the switch *is there to help you coil spilt if desired. So the next step is to r*emove the wire *and see if 2 and 4 work


I feel foolish... the "earth/ground wire at the switch"? I didn't see that in the diagram, and (as yet) have not grounded it. All the pots are tied together, there is a lead to go to the bridge, and the ground (and hot) for the jack.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

ok never mind then. I mentioned I forgot it. Maybe it needs to be there? Without an actual switch to look at it's the best I can do. No strings yet?


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

No strings yet, so let's press pause. 

I am hoping to get the centre cavities shield painted today. Mount the guard during the week. Once all that is done, I'll revisit with how it turned out.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

Well, I did it!!! I finally strung it up, and plugged it in. It works!!! All 5 positions. 

One, very odd flub though. The bridge tone control is backwards. Instead of rolling up to open it, I have to roll it down. The neck is "normal". I can totally live with it though. There was so much extra wire with the H/B's and enough lead on the pups for guitars with controls much farther away than what a Strat requires. I had to convert it to a "swimming pool" route. 

I ain't complaining, it works. 

Thanks to everyone who helped me figure this out. 

I will post more pics over in the "What's on Your Bench" thread.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

CONGRATS! I just asked about the switch less than a minute ago in your other post.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

greco said:


> CONGRATS! I just asked about the switch less than a minute ago in your other post.


I answered over there too. ha, ha...


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

SWLABR said:


> One, very odd flub though. The bridge tone control is backwards. Instead of rolling up to open it, I have to roll it down.


You know this is a simple fix...Correct?


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

greco said:


> You know this is a simple fix...Correct?


I clearly do not...


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Just switch the wiring of the terminals on the tone pot...


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

greco said:


> Just switch the wiring of the terminals on the tone pot...
> View attachment 352825


I don’t think I like the Ultrasonic much in the neck. When I swap that out, I will see if I can reverse this error.


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