# No Death of the Tube Amp but a Gradual Move to Niche Status?



## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

What Does the Future Hold for Tube Amplifiers and Half Stacks?


Will our good old beloved amps finally die in the name of convenience?




www.ultimate-guitar.com


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

I'm all for portability, but I also want to get away from my computer as well - so that means minimal cab sim products. I've deliberately separated my computer, TV monitor and stereo to minimize computer use and point of failure. Call it old school, but it works for me.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

For the home player (and I say this as the owner of 3, maybe 4 amps), modelling just...makes..._sense_. You want a sound, you've got it. And you don't have to spend a lot to sound good (or in my case, the amp sims will sound good, regardless of what the "player" does).

That said, I am old, and do like the organic sound of an amp, and I like to feel my pant legs move on occasion. But for playing quickly, I will fire up the 11 Rack, turn on my Edifier powered monitors, and it sounds pretty decent to me. I play quietly, and I get a sound I like easily and repeatably.

The only issue is obsolescence. If someone buys a wild new modeller, what do you do when it has been greatly surpassed? Tube amps won't have that problem because they are relatively simple creatures, reliant on hardware, and not software.

I am hoping to get my 6505MH up and running through a cab soon, just to justify keeping them.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Inflatable full stacks may become a part of the other stage props.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Rollin Hand said:


> For the home player (and I say this as the owner of 3, maybe 4 amps), modelling just...makes..._sense_. You want a sound, you've got it. And you don't have to spend a lot to sound good (or in my case, the amp sims will sound good, regardless of what the "player" does).
> 
> That said, I am old, and do like the organic sound of an amp, and I like to feel my pant legs move on occasion. But for playing quickly, I will fire up the 11 Rack, turn on my Edifier powered monitors, and it sounds pretty decent to me. I play quietly, and I get a sound I like easily and repeatably.
> 
> ...


People still use gt6s and axe fx standards. And lexicon pcms and tc 2290s. They dont sound worse all of a sudden. Many axe 2 users dont feel compelled to grab a 3 either.

What do tube guys do when the manufacturing stops and all the 60's old stock have died?


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

I don’t think as far as niche but I do feel it will be less and less and more difficult to maintain.

I’m a diehard tube feel guy my whole life. I’ve tried everything modelling over the years and this year went hard.

I love the STL tonehub and amphub sims for my easy home fix and quiet demo recording in my basement, they honestly sound ridiculously good.

After trying FM3, Axe iii, kemper etc I just this week settled on a helix LT as an easy pack n go solution for rehearsal.
I will still play and maintain my Shiva for gigs, as well as a couple other tube amps I love, but I was able to dial in a couple nice and easy Shiva tones that I’m happy with on the helix that will work for when I just want to bring a backpack and two guitars to rehearsal, not everytime, but some of the time.

I actually ended up liking the tones on the helix much more than any of the multiple lunchbox solutions I played with.

just my opinion.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

I've had a modeling amp and I ended up selling it. Sounded fine. What I do not like about amp sims and all these things is the complexity of it. I play tube amps because they're simple. As few knobs as possible. I can't stand having a million options and dicking around with patches and settings endlessly. 

There's a place for new stuff like Fender's Tonemaster series. I think those are a good compromise for players like me. 

HOWEVER, what I don't like about anything that's tech based in it's core is that it's disposable. As we all know, anything digital based is inevitably going to become obsolete or undesirable as newer generations are released. Look at all the recording equipment from 20 years ago. ADAT used to be very expensive and high end - now you can't even give those machines away. Anyone seen someone try and sell a Fender Cyber series amp? How about any multi-effects modeler from 10-15 years ago? 

So yeah, if you're into the upsides of portability and flexability in terms of tone, then absolutely digital is going to be your friend. But the fact that we're still playing the tube amps built 70 years ago speaks to the longevity of those designs. Anyone want to place bets on where all the Helix and Tonemaster amps will be in 25 years?


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> I've had a modeling amp and I ended up selling it. Sounded fine. What I do not like about amp sims and all these things is the complexity of it. I play tube amps because they're simple. As few knobs as possible. I can't stand having a million options and dicking around with patches and settings endlessly.
> 
> There's a place for new stuff like Fender's Tonemaster series. I think those are a good compromise for players like me.
> 
> ...


I still have a line 6 flextone I bought new in 2003 or 4 I think. It works fine.

I like STL Tonehub producer packs cause all the hard work is done as they are captures of producers/players studio tones and sound amazing plugged directly into the mix. Amp sims at home only require one thing everyone will have in their home for ever, a computer and monitors seem to last forever IMO.

let’s not kid ourselves and try to convince each other there isn’t a tonne of lower end or not as great tube and solid state amps that end up in landfills once the cost to repair/maintain outweighs the value of the amp even before tube and analog parts were becoming more and more obsolete/rare.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Budda said:


> What do tube guys do when the manufacturing stops and all the 60's old stock have died?


That is a worry. I believe that someone will make them because there will be demand, if less demand. High end audio fans tend to like tubes (at least I have read that it the case. But that will mean increased price, making modellers more and more practical. That raises the question of what happens to smaller amp makers. And what happens when the modellers don't have any more tube amps to model...

One saving grace is that perhaps the bigger amp makers -- Fender, Marshall, and that Boutique conglomerate -- perhaps have enough juice collectively to get tubes made.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

My understanding was most NOS tubes were gone years ago. Factories in china and Soviet block countries have been the bulk supplier for new tubes for at least 25 years. 
The types still made are pretty standardized to the common types, so I don't see it really going away soon.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Rollin Hand said:


> For the home player (and I say this as the owner of 3, maybe 4 amps), modelling just...makes..._sense_. You want a sound, you've got it. And you don't have to spend a lot to sound good (or in my case, the amp sims will sound good, regardless of what the "player" does).


That is fine in theory, but some of us are technology averse. I, for one, prefer simplicity (I have, but could easily live without, a mid control on my amps!) and modelers have so much going on that they overwhelm us. Then there are IRs (seriously, what the fuck are they and why are they needed????) that have to be loaded and it is all just too much. 

I would love to be able to plug into something, say my Boss GT-100 or their GT-1000 unit or even another model like a Helix or something, and have a dozen or more classic amps at my fingertips, but it all gets to be too much especially when you have to go in and rpogram the amount of sag, etc. Meanwhile with my tube amps I plug in, twist a couple of knobs (the fewer the better!), and I'm ready to go.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Budda said:


> What do tube guys do when the manufacturing stops and all the 60's old stock have died?



People have been predicting the end of tube manufacturing for ages but it hasn't happened.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

colchar said:


> People have been predicting the end of tube manufacturing for ages but it hasn't happened.


That doesnt mean it wont happen, which is my point.

As for "modellers have too many options, i want simple" - simple is right there. Dont deep dive. Dont adjust anything other than the main parameters. Dont fiddle for days with presets. In the land of fractal, thats exactly why the authentic page exists. Some amps are 2 knob eq and the volume. It's a pretty weak cop-out at this point.


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## Jim Jones (Sep 18, 2006)

If I had to play through a computer I wouldn’t even bother anymore.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

I'm loving my Helix now that I've spent a bit of time figuring it out. I also still enjoy my tube amps and my Tone Master Deluxe Reverb. Lots of great options for getting cool sounds!


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

I’ve never been to a place in Canada where making music was a part of the culture. Making music equipment accessible to people is the guarantee that it continues and grows.

Growing up, I had never seen a tube amp and knew only one person who’s parents were “loaded” enough to buy them a drum kit.

Music was not accessible and not a part of the culture where I grew up in the 90’s and early 2000’s. The garage band app on a used MacBook was my entry point to music and resulted in me buying my first guitar “Fender FR50” when I was 25 with 6 instalments at L&M lol.

This is why I try not to ever insult or degrade inexpensive music equipment. I want younger people to take all of the affordable and accessible technology that they can get their hands on seriously. And then I want them to start making outrageous financial decisions once the addiction has set its claws in deep enough lol.


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## Choo5440 (Oct 24, 2020)

As a big city (Toronto) person, I'd love to play more tube amps. But I just can't play that loud at most times I can play. I end up using a modeler with headphones so I don't disturb my neighbours.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

Budda said:


> What do tube guys do when the manufacturing stops and all the 60's old stock have died?


To repeat some of what has been said in this thread.

It only has to last another 10-60 years for me, at an absolute maximum, after that, I don’t care.
The hi-fi guys will not let go of their tubes. They will make their own. We can buy from them.
People change out their tubes way too often.
I worry there will be mandates against inefficient electronics, we will need a carve out or we will go on strike.
Someone should figure out how to fix old tubes. You would need to replace and reactivate the getter.

How many tubes will you need in your lifetime?


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

colchar said:


> That is fine in theory, but some of us are technology averse. I, for one, prefer simplicity (I have, but could easily live without, a mid control on my amps!) and modelers have so much going on that they overwhelm us. Then there are IRs (seriously, what the fuck are they and why are they needed????) that have to be loaded and it is all just too much.
> 
> I would love to be able to plug into something, say my Boss GT-100 or their GT-1000 unit or even another model like a Helix or something, and have a dozen or more classic amps at my fingertips, but it all gets to be too much especially when you have to go in and rpogram the amount of sag, etc. Meanwhile with my tube amps I plug in, twist a couple of knobs (the fewer the better!), and I'm ready to go.


You're overthinking it I....erm, think. Lots of presets on modellers that allow you to just pick an amp, and adjust knobs, just like on a real amp. IRs are more for recording, to my view.

The Eleven Rack is dead simple to use,and you never need to hook it up to a computer.

Join us.......join us......


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## Abiguitar (May 28, 2009)

I love tube amps, but they're just too loud for my current situation of living in a condo. 

My last tube amp was a 5 watt Carr Raleigh, and even that was too loud. 

I'm now just playing through a $300 Spark amp, and it suits my needs perfectly. Speakers aren't great, but the amp sounds awesome through headphones.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Budda said:


> That doesnt mean it wont happen, which is my point.
> 
> As for "modellers have too many options, i want simple" - simple is right there. Dont deep dive. Dont adjust anything other than the main parameters. Dont fiddle for days with presets. In the land of fractal, thats exactly why the authentic page exists. Some amps are 2 knob eq and the volume. It's a pretty weak cop-out at this point.


You're assuming we know enough about units like the Fractal to have known that was possible.

And what about this IR stuff?


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Choo5440 said:


> As a big city (Toronto) person, I'd love to play more tube amps. But I just can't play that loud at most times I can play. I end up using a modeler with headphones so I don't disturb my neighbours.


If I can play big tube amps with my dog sleeping twenty feet away and not wake him, you can play them without disturbing your neighbors. There is no need to get them above TV volumes.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Hammerhands said:


> To repeat some of what has been said in this thread.
> 
> It only has to last another 10-60 years for me, at an absolute maximum, after that, I don’t care.
> The hi-fi guys will not let go of their tubes. They will make their own. We can buy from them.
> ...



People are weirdly concerned about new tubes. Any time I've sold a tube amp I've invariably had people ask how old the tubes are or how much life is left on them (how the fuck would I know???). Old tubes are desired, but you obsess over the age of tubes and want new ones?

When I took my vintage Traynor to Rob at RedX I was thrilled when he pulled out a tube and said "that's a vintage Mullard, there are probably more in there."


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Rollin Hand said:


> You're overthinking it I....erm, think. Lots of presets on modellers that allow you to just pick an amp, and adjust knobs, just like on a real amp. IRs are more for recording, to my view.
> 
> The Eleven Rack is dead simple to use,and you never need to hook it up to a computer.
> 
> Join us.......join us......



I saw a Eleven Rack at my local L&M for a stupidly cheap price a couple of years ago. I should have snagged it then.

If that thing was still being updated, I might consider one as a toe dip into modelers.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

colchar said:


> People are weirdly concerned about new tubes. Any time I've sold a tube amp I've invariably had *people ask how old the tubes are or how much life is left on them (how the fuck would I know???)*. Old tubes are desired, but you obsess over the age of tubes and want new ones?
> 
> When I took my vintage Traynor to Rob at RedX I was thrilled when he pulled out a tube and said "that's a vintage Mullard, there are probably more in there."


Yup. Its not like tubes come with a gas gauge.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

colchar said:


> If I can play big tube amps with my dog sleeping twenty feet away and not wake him, you can play them without disturbing your neighbors. There is no need to get them above TV volumes.


This is true. I have no problem playing my tube amps whisper quiet if needed. Its not much fun unless I can let em loose but I can't imagine modelers being anymore fun. whisper quiet. Its always more fun when you crank it.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

colchar said:


> You're assuming we know enough about units like the Fractal to have known that was possible.
> 
> And what about this IR stuff?


IR is your virtual speaker+cab+mic. Find one you like, click "save", never worry about it again. People literally dont have to overthink these things. Rolling IR's would be like rolling speaker+cabs+mics. Generally people dont spend a ton of time on that with the physical stuff, so apply that same thought process to the virtual stuff. 

If someone doesnt have the self control to stop when they find a sound they like, that is not the fault of the equipment lol.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> This is true. I have no problem playing my tube amps whisper quiet if needed. Its not much fun unless I can let em loose but I can't imagine modelers being anymore fun. whisper quiet. Its always more fun when you crank it.


Louder is definitely more fun. Yet myself and many others have not had their fun diminished getting cranked amp sounds at TV volumes or lower - because the amp model is cranked .


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

guitarman2 said:


> Yup. Its not like tubes come with a gas gauge.


I've had people ask how many hours I've played the amp since the tubes were put in.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

colchar said:


> If I can play big tube amps with my dog sleeping twenty feet away and not wake him, you can play them without disturbing your neighbors. There is no need to get them above TV volumes.


I rented the Marshall SC20C (10" JCM 800 combo) and it sounded really good with the volume around 3, but that was still loud! When I got it down below the 95-100 db range, it got pretty buzzy and fizzy, which I know is just a thing with low volume. I can't do sustained practice at those levels in my small space without getting ringing in my ears. There have been too many loud concerts, nightclubs, parties and past performances in my life for that! I try to save the loudness exposure for when I can't avoid it and try to keep things at a tolerable level at home. My office space is small, which makes louder volumes even harder to take, as opposed to a band practice, where we have a bit more room and it is less in my face.

With the Helix and PowerCab or even headphones, I can get the tone into that sweet spot range but then control the end result volume. It still doesn't sound quite as good as when I can turn it up louder, but it sounds better than what I'd been using. The Tone Master Deluxe Reverb also does a good job at this, where I can turn the volume to like 7 or 8, but the "attenuator" is at the lowest setting. It sounds sweet, but doesn't leave me with ringing ears or neighbourly complaints in our attached housing.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

guitarman2 said:


> This is true. I have no problem playing my tube amps whisper quiet if needed. Its not much fun unless I can let em loose but I can't imagine modelers being anymore fun. whisper quiet.


I actually prefer the sound of big amps turned down than small amps turned down. Yeah it is nice to be able to unleash their power, but they can still sound great at low volumes.

Do we avoid cars that can do 200kmh just because we live in an urban area with speed limits of 50kmh? Those cars can be really nice to drive and fun when we open them up on a highway, but even then we're still not coming anywhere close to using their full potential. If we accept not using a car's full potential, why not do the same with tube amps?





> Its always more fun when you crank it.


We're still talking about amps right?


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Budda said:


> IR is your virtual speaker+cab+mic. Find one you like, click "save", never worry about it again. People literally dont have to overthink these things. Rolling IR's would be like rolling speaker+cabs+mics. Generally people dont spend a ton of time on that with the physical stuff, so apply that same thought process to the virtual stuff.
> 
> If someone doesnt have the self control to stop when they find a sound they like, that is not the fault of the equipment lol.


Someone like me doesn't want to have to go through finding and installing IRs (no idea how that would even be done). I want plug and play. I really can be that averse to technology.

Put it this way. I missed the Orange AD30 that I stupidly got rid of, so I recently bought another Orange to use until I buy either a Rockerverb or another AD30. I was trying to decide between the Rocker 15 Terror or the Dual Terror. A big part of my deliberations were that the Dual Terror only had a single tone control for each channel, whereas the Rocker has treble, mid, and bass controls. I bought the Rocker, but the simpler tone controls were a _serious_ consideration for me.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

colchar said:


> People have been predicting the end of tube manufacturing for ages but it hasn't happened.


I took electricity/electronics in high school. My last year of that was 1972 and the teacher focussed entirely on tube electronics. Our project was to build a tube radio from a kit. That was about the time digital calculators were coming out and transistors had almost completely replaced tubes for almost everything. Yet the teacher felt that understanding tubes was more useful. And for me, he was right. Does anyone build from discrete transistors rather than ICs?


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

jdto said:


> I rented the Marshall SC20C (10" JCM 800 combo) and it sounded really good with the volume around 3, but that was still loud! When I got it down below the 95-100 db range, it got pretty buzzy and fizzy, which I know is just a thing with low volume. I can't do sustained practice at those levels in my small space without getting ringing in my ears. There have been too many loud concerts, nightclubs, parties and past performances in my life for that! I try to save the loudness exposure for when I can't avoid it and try to keep things at a tolerable level at home. My office space is small, which makes louder volumes even harder to take, as opposed to a band practice, where we have a bit more room and it is less in my face.
> 
> With the Helix and PowerCab or even headphones, I can get the tone into that sweet spot range but then control the end result volume. It still doesn't sound quite as good as when I can turn it up louder, but it sounds better than what I'd been using. The Tone Master Deluxe Reverb also does a good job at this, where I can turn the volume to like 7 or 8, but the "attenuator" is at the lowest setting. It sounds sweet, but doesn't leave me with ringing ears or neighbourly complaints in our attached housing.



I have noise induced hearing loss so I totally get it. When I play the bigger amps I am only playing them at TV volumes, but I manage to make them sound good for what I am doing. A master volume and/or attenutar of some sort helps. Of my two current amps the Traynor YGL3 has a master and the Orange has volume & gain controls, along with switchable wattage and an attenuator. If I buy a Rockerverb as my next big boy Orange, it also has an attenuator.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

guitarman2 said:


> Yup. Its not like tubes come with a gas gauge.


No they usually have idiot lamps...gauges are extra


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

colchar said:


> Someone like me doesn't want to have to go through finding and installing IRs (no idea how that would even be done). I want plug and play. I really can be that averse to technology.
> 
> Put it this way. I missed the Orange AD30 that I stupidly got rid of, so I recently bought another Orange to use until I buy either a Rockerverb or another AD30. I was trying to decide between the Rocker 15 Terror or the Dual Terror. A big part of my deliberations were that the Dual Terror only had a single tone control for each channel, whereas the Rocker has treble, mid, and bass controls. I bought the Rocker, but the simpler tone controls were a _serious_ consideration for me.


The good news is hundreds (or thousands) of IRs come preloaded. It can be plug and play with fractal if you want classic sounds - the presets are that good.

I'd make a clip but those who are dead set against modelling and digital wont be changing their minds.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Hammerhands said:


> To repeat some of what has been said in this thread.
> 
> It only has to last another 10-60 years for me, at an absolute maximum, after that, I don’t care.
> The hi-fi guys will not let go of their tubes. They will make their own. We can buy from them.
> ...


I think the Hifi guys are relying on the guitar players to keep tube production going.  
Way more tube guitar amps out there getting used all the time compared to audiophiles with high end tube gear. 

In home stereo gear, that's well made, the tubes can last literally 40 years. I used to buy old Fisher and Scott amps, and the preamp tubes were always perfect. The outputs were often dead because the coupling caps went bad and they were over driven. 
In guitar amps I bet preamp tubes can last the same, power tubes probably several hundred if not a few thousand hours. Vintage KT66s were 5000 hour tubes.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

I'm thinking of developing "Tube Amp Smell Spray". The smell of tubes and solder and flux is special.


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## Griff (Sep 7, 2016)

You know what else is headed for 'niche' status? Guitars.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

It all depends on what today's young players are doing.

When I started out, the cheapest option was a shitty beginner solid state amp. Tube amps were for seasoned players who could afford them.

We've progressed far beyond shitty practice amps for beginners. A lot of young players won't ever need to leave the digital realm or wouldn't think twice about going DI. A tube amp isn't necessarily going to be their ticket to a good sound.

People also want lighter amps. Large, big name tube amps are some of the best deals on Kijiji. The price seems inversely related to the wattage. Smaller tube amps are in greater demand.

You know how bass rigs got super light? The same thing is happening to guitar amps. Fender Tonemaster, Quilter, DV Mark-- simple, powerful amps that can be gigged. Leave the heavy tube amps at home.

I think tube amps are destined to follow in the way of 2" tape. It's not that people didn't like 2" tape. It's just that digital was more convenient and accessible for all. And eventually, that became the norm.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Just wait til all your sounds are 'cloud-based' and you can't use your amp if your internet goes down. 
Most of the solid state transistors, chips, and software/operating systems will go 'No Longer Available' before the common tubes we use do. It's fairly common in the MI electronic repair industry.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

A lot of fuss is made over digital. But honestly, I'm more impressed at what solid state can do these days.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

I don't really care that it's a difference you can't hear between tube and SS or DI. I'm a masochist, and I like the heavy-weight lifting of tube transformer power, the heft, the click, and the fizz of hearing a guitar through a tube amp. It's not a mystery to me its just a contradiction I prefer.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> I don't really care that it's a difference you can't hear between tube and SS or DI. I'm a masochist, and I like the heavy-weight lifting of tube transformer power, the heft, the click, and the fizz of hearing a guitar through a tube amp. It's not a mystery to me its just a contradiction I prefer.


Then play bass, with an svt classic and 810 fridge. Otherwise you're just grandstanding


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Budda said:


> Then play bass, with an svt classic and 810 fridge. Otherwise you're just grandstanding


Hefting that around would keep me in my prime, like the steel tiger that I am.
what I mean is that there is a natural//biological propagation delay, a dynamic smushyness (for lack of a better word) that you get from a class A tube amp. I can feel the clip even with an A/B circuit, let alone a line-in boost/sim of a DI box. I don't dig it. There was a time I thought that getting a good amp sim like a kemper would satisfy, but I'm not that guy anymore and I'd rather stick to a single class-A tube amp. Like I say it's no mystery, just a contradiction somewhere in there.

...maybe back problems, and arthritis would change my mind.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Budda said:


> The good news is hundreds (or thousands) of IRs come preloaded. It can be plug and play with fractal if you want classic sounds - the presets are that good.
> 
> I'd make a clip but those who are dead set against modelling and digital wont be changing their minds.


So why not make one for those of us with open minds?

I am not against the technology (I am fully in support of SS amps), I am technologically challenged and am thus leery of it. That is different from having a closed mind.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Griff said:


> You know what else is headed for 'niche' status? Guitars.


Nah. People predict that fairly regularly but it ain't happening.


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

Tube amps...niche status?
F that. 
Seriously, small combos are where it is at for recording at reasonable volumes. Buy a lifetime supply of NOS tubes.

No offense to the digital crowd, if you are happy and you know it, buy more ir's....


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## Griff (Sep 7, 2016)

colchar said:


> Nah. People predict that fairly regularly but it ain't happening.


They predict it with tubes amps, too. I think as much as one will be, so will the other.

We don't live in the 60's to 90's anymore. Guitar rock hasn't been cool for a while. Sure electric guitars are part of most live shows, but they aren't front and centre in popular music like they used to be.

I'm not complaining or suggesting guitar is dead. More just commenting that it's 'nichier' than it's been in like 60 years.

Also, I love tube amps.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Griff said:


> They predict it with tubes amps, too. I think as much as one will be, so will the other.
> 
> We don't live in the 60's to 90's anymore. Guitar rock hasn't been cool for a while. Sure electric guitars are part of most live shows, but they aren't front and centre in popular music like they used to be.



Do you remember Disco and New Wave? I do. Guitar came back after them, and it will again.


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## Griff (Sep 7, 2016)

colchar said:


> Do you remember Disco and New Wave? I do. Guitar came back after them, and it will again.


Yeah I just figured there were still bands like Zeppelin and then the hair metal bands that had the guitar guys.

You may be right - I may be crazy.

I guess my point was mainly that tube amps aren't going away as long as guitars are around. So interest may wane, at times.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

One thing I've noticed about the modellers, even the best of the best, they all sort of sound generically the same. Different, but nothing unique or signature about the sound.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

Always12AM said:


> I’ve never been to a place in Canada where making music was a part of the culture. Making music equipment accessible to people is the guarantee that it continues and grows.
> 
> Growing up, I had never seen a tube amp and knew only one person who’s parents were “loaded” enough to buy them a drum kit.
> 
> ...


This is a pretty good summation for me as well. My family did not have a lot of "extra cash". Guitars, amps, pedals, cases... were big ticket gifts on Christmas and birthdays. I didn't just _get_ a guitar. 

My first...errr... _rig??_ was a Harmony Strat with an Aria-Pro (solid state) amp I got for Christmas 1987. I had that, and only that, for years. I got a job and went halves with my parents on a used Ibanez.

A tube amp? It was like unicorns... they might exist, but me and my friends had never seen one.

I just went guitar hunting with my buddy for his daughters Christmas present on the weekend. He & I have known each other since grade school, we were in our first band together, and have never lost the love of playing. He ended up with a Sunburst Classic Vibe Strat, and a Boss Katana-Mini. Being there, actually running that Katana through it's paces, was amazing. We were so excited with this little thing! The guy at L&M actually commented: "_I hope your daughter likes it half as much as you guys do_". The amount of times we said to each other (and ourselves) how awesome this would have been when we were learning. I still have that Aria amp... it sounded like sh*t then, and it still sounds like sh*t. But what was I to do?? It was all I had. This Katana sounds 200 times better than what I learnt on. I'm actually thinking of getting one... or something similar just to have at the ready. I love my tube amp... I really, really do, but to pull it out just to practice is not always house friendly. I sit on the couch with an unplugged electric all the time, this would be perfect for that. 

The big drawback with an electric _used_ to be that you also needed an amp, or it was pretty useless. That's not the case anymore. Most people have computers now, so adding a guitar and even the cheapest software can have you playing with less (financial) commitment. 

But remember kids, if you are just practicing your playing, (not learning songs), pick a clean tone sim... don't learn scales & chords with distortion the whole time.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

colchar said:


> So why not make one for those of us with open minds?
> 
> I am not against the technology (I am fully in support of SS amps), I am technologically challenged and am thus leery of it. That is different from having a closed mind.


That's what the factory presets are for. I'll try to get something tonight. I've made a few clips in the past, but Cliff posts firmware updates fairly frequently. Just like your favourite 112 combo though, you dont have to update if your current setup works. And once you back up the unit, you can roll back if you dont like the changes.




tonewoody said:


> Tube amps...niche status?
> F that.
> Seriously, small combos are where it is at for recording at reasonable volumes. Buy a lifetime supply of NOS tubes.
> 
> No offense to the digital crowd, if you are happy and you know it, buy more ir's....


Shoutour fractal because I dont need to buy any IR's - the factory ones are made by the same guys that sell 3rd party lol.


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## markxander (Oct 24, 2009)

i have two tube amps that i love, but i got sick of the volume and bought a two notes captor X -- I run my guitars and pedals into the tube amps I'm used to, and then they run into the captor and out through headphones. 

tube amps are a lot of fun but digital is magic. headphones is never going to be as fun as rattling windows but c'est la vie. 

anyone who is dead set on only ever using tubes or only ever using a modeler is missing out on half of the fun.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

player99 said:


> I'm thinking of developing "Tube Amp Smell Spray". The smell of tubes and solder and flux is special.


That would be an interesting project. I remember when I was a kid, I used to keep my little tube set under the bed...those old single beds were high, a great place to escape to when you wanted to be alone. Anyway, I operated it under the bed to confine the aroma from the set. I believe that aroma would be a good seller for the aroma therapists...attractive and mysterious.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

SWLABR said:


> But remember kids, if you are just practicing your playing, (not learning songs), pick a clean tone sim... don't learn scales & chords with distortion the whole time.


I'd argue songs should be learned clean too, at least at first.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Budda said:


> People still use gt6s and axe fx standards. And lexicon pcms and tc 2290s. They dont sound worse all of a sudden. Many axe 2 users dont feel compelled to grab a 3 either.
> 
> What do tube guys do when the manufacturing stops and all the 60's old stock have died?


Retrofit NuTubes?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

1SweetRide said:


> Retrofit NuTubes?


Did those ever catch on?


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> I've had a modeling amp and I ended up selling it. Sounded fine. What I do not like about amp sims and all these things is the complexity of it. I play tube amps because they're simple. As few knobs as possible. I can't stand having a million options and dicking around with patches and settings endlessly.
> 
> There's a place for new stuff like Fender's Tonemaster series. I think those are a good compromise for players like me.
> 
> ...


Actually older modelers like the Pod are quite in vogue right now and don't sound half bad 20 years on. I recently met a musician using a Yamaha drum machine from 1975. Still going strong and sounds great. Not everything digital needs to be thought of as disposable. Repairability is another story though.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Budda said:


> Did those ever catch on?


Not yet but I bet something like it will sure surface when tubes can't be sourced.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Budda said:


> Did those ever catch on?


Don't here too much hype on them. Here's the Korg 100W module used in the ValveReactor system


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Paul Running said:


> Don't here too much hype on them. Here's the Korg 100W module used in the ValveReactor system
> View attachment 391499


I had a couple of tiny amps that used the NuTube. Sounded alright.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Cleanup in aisle 3.

Please try to stay on topic and enough with the insults. Thank you.

I like modelers but keep drifting back to tubes. There's just that "something" about playing through a good tube amp. Having said that I still use my 11 Rack as my computer interface and I see no reason to change it, it's excellent.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

A tube amp is fully animated, in my opinion. I bought a Guitar Rig years ago, more so to play around with. I still have it and play around with it once in a while...it's a source of entertainment for me. I believe if I let myself go, I would become obsessed with it so, I try to moderate my activities...not easy sometimes. I've always been fascinated with the vacuum tube and always keep one foot on that path.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

The thing I like about my tube amps is that they are what they are. It's all right there and I just play them for the sounds I can get from them, which is fun. My approach with the Helix is more about finding specific sounds for specific songs that I want to cover. I like to get close to the sound of the recorded versions we've elected to cover and Helix does that without having to have a ton of different amps or pedals to tap dance with. I know I could probably play them "close enough" through a tube amp and it would be fine, but my playing barely qualifies as "close enough" as it is, never mind without getting a somewhat decent facsimile of the tones


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Class A goodest, class A/B 50% good, Class B 12.5% good, Class D 0.1-1% good
^Human equivalent, ^semi-human equivalent, ^Bipedal Animal, ^Automaton

The finest amplifier is one I suppose and hope we are all equipped with. It looks like this: 








God really is a genius master craftsman


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## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

So what's the deal with relics?


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

From my personal experience, watching something brand new aging, troubles me...probably a neurosis. I don't have that issue with an old sorta beat-up object. I will tend to feel more at home with it. I believe that others have the same behaviour. A naturally relic'd object is a piece of art for me, it usually arouses an emotion within and generates an attraction, becoming more of a personal object than a material one...just my take on it.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Paul Running said:


> From my personal experience, watching something brand new aging, troubles me...probably a neurosis. I don't have that issue with an old sorta beat-up object. I will tend to feel more at home with it. I believe that others have the same behaviour. A naturally relic'd object is a piece of art for me, it usually arouses an emotion within and generates an attraction, becoming more of a personal object than a material one...just my take on it.


That's the key word for me "naturally". I liked the look and feel of a relic'd guitar but I can't get over the fact it started its life as a pristine instrument. We never had much money growing up and taking good care of things was ingrained in me. There was no money to replace something that got damaged or broken. I do like stuff that's aged naturally and really enjoy those videos of old amps being worked on. If I ever got an old beat-up tube amp that worked and sounded good, I'd leave it the heck alone.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

1SweetRide said:


> That's the key word for me "naturally". I liked the look and feel of a relic'd guitar but I can't get over the fact it started its life as a pristine instrument. We never had much money growing up and taking good care of things was ingrained in me. There was no money to replace something that got damaged or broken. I do like stuff that's aged naturally and really enjoy those videos of old amps being worked on. If I ever got an old beat-up tube amp that worked and sounded good, I'd leave it the heck alone.


Every guitar with aging started out as a pristine instrument, natural or not.


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## TTHX (May 24, 2013)

I don't think tube amps will ever die but agree that the market will dictate on what's more readily available (ie small tube amps for portability and convenience). I remember when Orange released the Tiny Terror and now there are a ton of small lunchbox style amps. This will just continue as the younger generations growing up don't have the means to afford their own place where you can actually crank a tube amp. Also there are so fewer venues and practice locations what else are you going to do? Need a rehearsal place? Don't have a car? No public transit to that place? Then easy, everyone has a pre-amp/cab sim pedal to throw in a backpack and show up at each others houses and plug into a mixer and it's easy jamming. 

I personally still love tube amps but recently got a Strymon Iridium for apartment playing and damn does it sound good. Put it in a mix and no one will be able to tell it's a pedal and not a real amp.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Once we're too feeble, old, and hungry mouths unfed (think unshipped crates of perfectly good food being withheld from public consumption); those amps will stay put in the basements and garages and soundrooms. Tube amps will outlive us all, what, with a man in the whitehouse!


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> Once we're too feeble, old, and hungry mouths unfed (think unshipped crates of perfectly good food being withheld from public consumption); those amps will stay put in the basements and garages and soundrooms. Tube amps will outlive us all, what, with a man in the whitehouse!


I’m not quite what this all means but it sounds interesting.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

1SweetRide said:


> I’m not quite what this all means but it sounds interesting.


I'm sorry, it seems I've gotten somewhat senile in my aged 30's. But just know I will fight for all the grandpas/grandmas out there when I say: the young best not eat the old when that food shortage comes down on us...we're not as tender as we seem.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I have some nice tube amps but I recently got a Katana 100 Mk2 on a trade and it's a really nice couch amp with their tone software.


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## PBGas (Jan 14, 2017)

Once I found the right lightweight poweramp to run with my 212 cab with the Axe III/FM9, I don't feel I am missing a thing. I played live last night and it sounded amazing! I'm really happy with taking a bit less and a lot lighter stuff, easier to setup gear to gigs.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

PBGas said:


> Once I found the right lightweight poweramp to run with my 212 cab with the Axe III/FM9, I don't feel I am missing a thing. I played live last night and it sounded amazing! I'm really happy with taking a bit less and a lot lighter stuff, easier to setup gear to gigs.


what power amp did you end up with?


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

1SweetRide said:


> Actually older modelers like the Pod are quite in vogue right now and don't sound half bad 20 years on. I recently met a musician using a Yamaha drum machine from 1975. Still going strong and sounds great. Not everything digital needs to be thought of as disposable. Repairability is another story though.


True. Always good to keep an open ear.

The one modeler that I keep on hand is the original Johnson J Station

I actually think the original designer had it right before Digitech bought them out. . 🙄
Several amp models sound and feel 'ampy', at least in a relative modeler way.
The "fuzz pedal" has a greasy charactor, rather decent.
Perhaps the lower processing bitrate helps takes the fake digital edge off?

I am not saying the J Station is "better than all others" but as a direct recording device, it has it's merits.

My number one use of the J Station is as a "direct recording bass amp". P bass to J Station to DAW interface. It just works. One patch, (SVT type patch) basically hardwired to the channel.

Several decent guitar amp models in there as well.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

I played a helix lt last night for rehearsal direct in the PA. It was great. I set up 4 presets with 4 scenes for each to handle the different effect settings I wanted for each preset at certain points in the set and it handled the whole set with ease and Gave up some great tones using some good IR’s.

I ran a shiva model, Uberschall for higher gain needs, an AC30 for some delay type Stuff I wanted to do and the matchless model for some other tones including a couple tremolo infused tones.

It sounded great through the pa and the feel was great. I was even able to coax feedback from It when I wanted.

Was it better than playing my Shiva or Uberschall? No, not quite, but it was close enough to enjoy rehearsal immensely and Having to only pack 1 backpack and a gig bag to rehearsal was nice as well.

I’ll still play my amps for shows but it was great for practice with the band.


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## PBGas (Jan 14, 2017)

Budda said:


> what power amp did you end up with?


I got an Orange Pedalbaby 100 a couple of months ago. Finally got to use it live last Friday at a gig in Mississauga and it was awesome with my Bogner 212CB.


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