# Who makes a 3.50 ohm pickup?



## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

Hi folks.
Just recently I decided to take some ohm readings on my guitar pickups.
3 reading of each. Neck, Bridge , and Both pickups.

First (in general) the neck and bridge pickups range from low 6.0 ohms to mid to high 7 ohms.
Specifically....BOTH pickups ohm readings where 3.51 , 3.53 , 3.41 , 3.02 , 3.70 .

Here is my question....to me, by far the most interesting tonal sounds allways come from BOTH pickups in the on position.
If I love the tones of both pickups and they produce an ohm reading in the 3.5 range
Where are the pickups that if played alone give me that tone?

G.

It seems that I made an error in reporting the ohm measurements...
ALL readings should of read K ohms... eg. 3.51 K ohms
the numbers are still the same and my question still applies.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Try JSMoore. He will probably wind one for you.

www.tonefordays.com/html/j_s_moore_custom_guitar_pickup1.html


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I hate to rain on anyone's parade, but I am doubtful that one can reproduce a specific tone by duplicating the combined DCR (resistance) and/or Inductance readings taken from 2 other pickups at the same time.

I think you would end up with a very low output pickup...nothing more.

This will be an interesting thread.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

What makes pickup combinations sound so sweet is the placement location under the strings. The individual pickups, depending if wired in parallel or series, capture the harmonic content of the vibrating string and combine by adding and subtracting tones and overtones. One pickup cannot capture that wide range.


----------



## Church-Audio (Sep 27, 2014)

Your pickups can't be 3 ohm they would not produce any sound. They have to be in the K ohm range. Unless they are active then that could be possible.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

They don't have to be in the kilohm range. Les Paul Recording pickups are lower than that, and were intended to go "directly into the board" as a 600-ohm source, just like a voice mic. You may want to have a look at this lengthy thread on low-impedance pickups: http://music-electronics-forum.com/t5447/

At the same time, what permits such low-impedance pickups to work with a conventional amp is matching transformers sitting between the pickups and the output, such that the odds of measuring anything as low as 3.5R at the output jack are slim to none. Even the Lace Alumitones - probably the best-known low-impedance pickup out there today - are a lot higher than that.

I suggest the OP either misread their meter, or perhaps the battery/ies in the meter need replacing.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mhammer said:


> I suggest the OP either misread their meter, or perhaps the battery/ies in the meter need replacing.


I think the OP meant to put 3.xx *Kohms.

*Just a guess.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Even at 3.5k, that's a pretty low value for a commercial pickup, unless we're talking about some older cheap Japanese pickup from the 60's. Even "lipstick" types read higher than that.


----------



## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

Church-Audio said:


> Your pickups can't be 3 ohm they would not produce any sound. They have to be in the K ohm range. Unless they are active then that could be possible.


It seems that I made an error in reporting the ohm measurements...

ALL readings should of read K ohms...
the numbers are still the same and my question still applies.

- - - Updated - - -



mhammer said:


> Even at 3.5k, that's a pretty low value for a commercial pickup, unless we're talking about some older cheap Japanese pickup from the 60's. Even "lipstick" types read higher than that.


my whole point is that my favourite settings ( both pickups) are generating approx. 3.5K readings ...


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

mhammer said:


> perhaps the battery/ies in the meter need replacing.


For OHM measurements the battery either works or it doesn't.



greco said:


> I think the OP meant to put 3.xx *Kohms.
> 
> *Just a guess.
> 
> ...


I think your guess is at least 99.9999% correct. You have to always leave a little room for error.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

GTmaker said:


> my whole point is that my favourite settings ( both pickups) are generating approx. 3.5K readings ...


This still doesn't make much sense. Are your reporting the resistance of the pickups disconnected from anything else, or is this the meter reading with the pickups still connected to other things?

Like I say, very few pickups, outside of obscure old Japanese things are going to measure anywhere near that low. If it is a contemporary instrument (anywhere after 1975) chances are very good that they will measure at least 6k each, when disconnected from everything else.

The only other thing I can imagine is that you are reporting one coil from a dual-coil humbucker. Now _those_ can measure in the 3.5k range, since 7k is a little, but not terribly, unusual for a HB.


----------



## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Steadfastly said:


> For OHM measurements the battery either works or it doesn't.


Off topic, but this is not correct. Most inexpensive ohm/resistance meters (except the most precise and/or specialized meters) effectively use the battery voltage as a reference to measure resistance. Depending on the battery chemistry installed, that voltage can vary quite a bit with the level of discharge. All ohm meters let you zero the reading to compensate both for the battery voltage and the lead resistance -- one should always do that before taking a resistance measurement, every time if you care about accuracy (i.e. short the leads, adjust the zero to read zero) -- so this helps to compensate for the battery voltage variation, but it's still not correct to assert or assume that "battery either works or it doesn't."

-- Update --
Well, perhaps not "all meters" have a reading zero. Many digital meters don't seem to have that. Still, shorting the leads before taking a resistance measurement and making a mental note of the short resistance can and should be used to compensate the actual reading done afterwards ... helps to deal with battery voltage variation and lead resistance errors.


----------



## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> This still doesn't make much sense. Are your reporting the resistance of the pickups disconnected from anything else, or is this the meter reading with the pickups still connected to other things?
> Like I say, very few pickups, outside of obscure old Japanese things are going to measure anywhere near that low. If it is a contemporary instrument (anywhere after 1975) chances are very good that they will measure at least 6k each, when disconnected from everything else.
> The only other thing I can imagine is that you are reporting one coil from a dual-coil humbucker. Now _those_ can measure in the 3.5k range, since 7k is a little, but not terribly, unusual for a HB.


I certainly dont mean to be confusing.
I am measuring the ohm output from the output jack of my guitars.
Volumes and tone controls on FULL.

Selector switch to neck pickup , I get a Kohm reading for that pickup
Selector switch on the bridge pickup and I get a kohm reading for that pickup.

Here is my point .....when I move the selector switch to Both pickups, I get a reading of about 3.5K ohms...
this is the setting that a like best but there does not seem to be a pickup with that kohm reading on the market.
WHY NOT?
there must be a reason, I just dont know what it is.

G.


----------



## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

GTmaker said:


> when I move the selector switch to Both pickups, I get a reading of about 3.5K ohms...


 Any chance that each individual pickup measures around 7K each or perhaps one a bit above 7K and another a bit below 7K? It sure sounds like that switch position just puts the pickups electrically in parallel, which would result around 3.5K DCR.

As I think has been mentioned, the tone that you're getting is not really correlated to the DCR you're measuring. It correlated to the fact that the pickups are spaced out a certain distance from each other under the strings and each picks up the vibration of the strings somewhat out of phase with each other, combining with that switch setting into a tone that you find pleasing. Nothing to do with DCR.

Clarification, hopefully: "out of phase" means at a different points in the vibration cycle. That is, there is a relative delay at any given time from one point on the string to another point, and the two pickups see two different delays -- delay more or less is the same as phase, in this case.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

LexxM3 has very eloquently stated what I am thinking...Thank You.

My brain is preoccupied with the sudden, unexpected death of my wife's best friend of 25 years and I can hardly put a sentence together....not wishing to derail the thread...just explaining that I would like to contribute more but my brain isn't cooperating.

Dave



LexxM3 said:


> Any chance that each individual pickup measures around 7K each or perhaps one a bit above 7K and another a bit below 7K? It sure sounds like that switch position just puts the pickups electrically in parallel, which would result around 3.5K DCR.
> 
> As I think has been mentioned, the tone that you're getting is not really correlated to the DCR you're measuring. It correlated to the fact that the pickups are spaced out a certain distance from each other under the strings and each picks up the vibration of the strings somewhat out of phase with each other, combining with that switch setting into a tone that you find pleasing. Nothing to do with DCR.
> 
> Clarification, hopefully: "out of phase" means at a different points in the vibration cycle. That is, there is a relative delay at any given time from one point on the string to another point, and the two pickups see two different delays -- delay more or less is the same as phase, in this case.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

LexxM3 said:


> Off topic, but this is not correct. Most inexpensive ohm/resistance meters (except the most precise and/or specialized meters) effectively use the battery voltage as a reference to measure resistance. Depending on the battery chemistry installed, that voltage can vary quite a bit with the level of discharge. All ohm meters let you zero the reading to compensate both for the battery voltage and the lead resistance -- one should always do that before taking a resistance measurement, every time if you care about accuracy (i.e. short the leads, adjust the zero to read zero) -- so this helps to compensate for the battery voltage variation, but it's still not correct to assert or assume that "battery either works or it doesn't."
> 
> -- Update --
> Well, perhaps not "all meters" have a reading zero. Many digital meters don't seem to have that. Still, shorting the leads before taking a resistance measurement and making a mental note of the short resistance can and should be used to compensate the actual reading done afterwards ... helps to deal with battery voltage variation and lead resistance errors.


I have sold and used many OHM meters and I've never seen the battery when it is low do that. Going from 3.5K to 3.5 just doesn't make sense to me. It is only measuring resistance, not voltage or current.


----------



## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

LexxM3 said:


> Any chance that each individual pickup measures around 7K each or perhaps one a bit above 7K and another a bit below 7K? It sure sounds like that switch position just puts the pickups electrically in parallel, which would result around 3.5K DCR.


I think the chances of what you explained are 100%...
So...if my prefered tone comes from pickups producing 3.5K ohms , why isnt anyone making that pickup for me?


----------



## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Read ed2000's post above (#4),your tone is coming from the combination of those two pickups in that particular guitar,not specifically because the resistance is 3.5K.

What guitar is it,what pick-ups ?


----------



## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

Bubb said:


> Read ed2000's post above (#4),your tone is coming from the combination of those two pickups in that particular guitar,not specifically because the resistance is 3.5K.
> What guitar is it,what pick-ups ?


Five different guitars, some with humbuckers some with single coils..

_First (in general) the neck and bridge pickups range from low 6.0 ohms to mid to high 7 ohms.
Specifically....BOTH pickups ohm readings where 3.51 , 3.53 , 3.41 , 3.02 , 3.70 .

_The K ohm readings for both pickups are very similar. On each guitar, I prefer the tone when both pickups are active.
Seems to me that Im the 3.50 K ohms (average) kind of guy.

G.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

If you had a single humbucker that could have the coils split (1/2 of ~7.0 Kohms = ~3.5 Kohms)
would you get the tone you are looking for? 
What DCR does 1/2 of a splittable humbucker read in Kohms? 
I have never measured 1/2 of a splittable humbucker.

Am I "all wet" with this thinking? (highly likely...LOL)

Just wondering.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

greco said:


> If you had a single humbucker that could have the coils split (1/2 of ~7.0 Kohms = ~3.5 Kohms)
> would you get the tone you are looking for?
> What DCR does 1/2 of a splittable humbucker read in Kohms?
> I have never measured 1/2 of a splittable humbucker.
> ...


First of all Dave...every one of my guitars gives me the "tone " I'm looking for.
It just so happens that in all cases , the best tone to my ears is with both pickups active.

Now I know that I'm "special" ,but I cant believe that i'm the only one that loves the tone that 2 pickups gives you.
So here we are back to the same dammed question....why isnt anyone making a pickup that caters my kind of crowd.?

G.

PS... i would also add that with all that wine you drink...your probably more then just wet most of the time.


----------



## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

Here is how you can get your target resistance using one pickup. You won't get your desired tone.
ex: DiMarzio Dual Sound Super Distortion Humbucker switchable series or parallel, individual coil ohms = 6.25K
-series connection = 12.5K > tends to overdrive, loss of treble
-parallel connection = just over 3K ohm > lower output, more clarity

The parallel connection pickup 'sees' only a small section of the vibrating string. Even though it reads roughly 3K ohms it is essentially one pickup. If you separate the two coils and create a neck and bridge combination you may get your desired tone because you are combining the sensing of the string vibrations over two areas. 
Generally speaking, coils with lower K ohm reading tend to produce a clearer and lower output The tone *you* want is produced by *2 single coils*, connected in* parallel*, reading the string's vibrations while *separated several cm's*. That is the key - coil separation! The tone can also be altered slightly by varying the pole piece to string gaps.

My first cheap electric had two single coil pickups. I was able to sweeten the tone even more , using both pup's, by moving the bridge pickup closer to the bridge.
I was complemented on the tone I produced on my P90's Les Paul with both pup's on. The same can be said about my Gretsch with both humbuckers on.


----------



## Guest (Feb 17, 2015)

greco said:


> My brain is preoccupied with the sudden, unexpected death of my wife's best friend of
> 25 years and I can hardly put a sentence together....not wishing to derail the thread...
> just explaining that I would like to contribute more but my brain isn't cooperating.
> 
> Dave


My condolences Dave.


----------



## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Steadfastly said:


> I have sold and used many OHM meters and I've never seen the battery when it is low do that. Going from 3.5K to 3.5 just doesn't make sense to me. It is only measuring resistance, not voltage or current.


Thinking about it, I tried to generalize something that shouldn't be generalized. There are meters out there where battery level will make a difference to a resistance measurement and there are meters that it will not. That should just be kept in mind when something doesn't make sense, not a universal problem. Apologies.

Regarding 3.5 vs 3.5K, I just assumed that was a minor typo from the start, not an actual measurement.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

1) DC resistance of a pickup should be measured with the pickup disconnected from everythiing else, such that the DCR reflects only the contribution of the wire coil, and not the contribution of anything else in series or parallel with that coil.

2) DCR is to pickup characteristics as shoe size is to intelligence. Chances are pretty good that a size 2 shoe belongs to someone very young and not especially knowledgeable, as a result. Similarly, a size 18 shoe is likely to belong to someone with a glandular problem accompanying some other source of developmental delay. But between those two extremes, all bets are off, and there is little that would allow one to say that a person wearing size 10 is more or less of anything than someone in a size 8-1/2.

3) The biggest determinant of a pickup's tone is where it is placed. Secondary to that is the nature of the magnetic "aperture", and what portions of the string's vibrations are having the most impact on the pickup as a result of that. The DCR of the coil corresponds both to the gauge of wire used (thinner gauge has a higher resistance), and to the number of turns on the coil. More turns generally implies more output (given the same magnet), but one could have a pickup using #41 wire with a_ lower _DCR than one using #43, yet having a hotter output, simply because the additional turns do not add up to much more resistance. Having said that, when the wire is identical, and the coilform/bobbin shape is identical, and the magnet is identical, greater DCR _will_ reflect more turns and hotter output.

Is there anything good or bad about higher and lower DCR in a pickup? Typically, the lower the DCR, the more treble content from that pickup can be "seen". That is, a 10k and 6k pickup might sense the same amount of treble, but more such content makes it safely down the cord to the amp from the 6k pickup, in the absence of any outside help. On the other hand, if the intent is to push an amp into overdrive easily, then losing some of that top end is helpful in "rounding off" the signal to tailor it for nicer-sounding overdrive.

4) Most pickups will be somewhere between about 6k and 12k in their DCR, largely because that is associated with enough turns to generate an output in the range of what amps are designed for. You CAN go lower than 6k, but unless it is a hum-rejecting design, the hum starts to compete with the signal a little too successfully.


----------



## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> 14) Most pickups will be somewhere between about 6k and 12k in their DCR, largely because that is associated with enough turns to generate an output in the range of what amps are designed for. You CAN go lower than 6k, but unless it is a hum-rejecting design, the hum starts to compete with the signal a little too successfully.


every thing you have said makes sense BUT...
when I turn that switch on my guitar to both pickups I know that the amp is seeing about 3.5K ohms....and the amp doesnt seem to mind it at all.
I also undestand the hum competing with the signal at some point. Tha also makes sense.
G.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

...and if you had 3 Strat pickups all on at the same time, the amp would be seeing a combined DC resistance of a bit over 2k, because the 3rd pickup does what any resistance would do in parallel. But that does not change _the number of turns on each pickup coil_ (which will be somewhere over 7600). And THAT is what matters, and is what the DC resistance on a disconnected pickup is correlated with.

Some guitars will wire the pickups in series, and others will wire them in parallel (and some with even fancier switching, will allow both), such that selecting two or more pickups would result in a higher DCR, measured at the output jack, or a lower DCR, as you found in your own. When the coils of two or more pickups are in series vs parallel, the measured DCR is only one of the things that changes. One of the other things that changes is the total inductance of that combination. And the inductance influences where the resonant frequencies of the combined coils will be located. 

This also applies to PAF-style humbuckers. When the two coils are wired in parallel, they will have a slightly brighter, and thinner, sound than when they are wired in series.

While I am not a fan of everything he writes, Dave Hunter's _Guitar Pickup Handbook_ is an excellent book that explains a great deal about pickups, with a very open mind.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mhammer said:


> One of the other things that changes is the total inductance of that combination. And the inductance influences where the resonant frequencies of the combined coils will be located.


And I am betting that the inductance changes are a key factor related to the resultant sound/"tone"...moreso than any of the DCR readings...Correct?

Cheers

Dave


----------



## SKATTERBRANE (Feb 14, 2013)

When in the middle position two pickups each having 8K ohms will read around 4K ohms. This is because they are wired in parallel. And the formula is 8k times 8K (or 64K) divided by 8K + 8K (or 16K) So 64K divided by 16K = 4k. A 4K pickup is not going to sound anything like two 8K pickups running in parallel.


----------



## SKATTERBRANE (Feb 14, 2013)

By the way, I do make such a pickup though they are in the 2.1K-2.6K range. And contrary to popular belief, the coils on these pickups are NOT wired in parallel, but in series as most humbuckers are. 

http://www.skatterbranepickups.com/pickups/spankbranes-pickups.php

Here is a Youtube of them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emrz_ucK5Ww


----------



## Church-Audio (Sep 27, 2014)

mhammer said:


> They don't have to be in the kilohm range. Les Paul Recording pickups are lower than that, and were intended to go "directly into the board" as a 600-ohm source, just like a voice mic. You may want to have a look at this lengthy thread on low-impedance pickups: http://music-electronics-forum.com/t5447/
> 
> At the same time, what permits such low-impedance pickups to work with a conventional amp is matching transformers sitting between the pickups and the output, such that the odds of measuring anything as low as 3.5R at the output jack are slim to none. Even the Lace Alumitones - probably the best-known low-impedance pickup out there today - are a lot higher than that.
> 
> I suggest the OP either misread their meter, or perhaps the battery/ies in the meter need replacing.


been in audio over half my life  yes you need a transformer or "active electronics" to act as a buffer. But they are not common pickups and that's not what he was talking about  pickups do need to be n the kohl range to have enough output to drive the input of a guitar amp period. Or have the aforementioned parts installed to make it happen.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

SKATTERBRANE said:


> By the way, I do make such a pickup though they are in the *2.1K-2.6K range.* And contrary to popular belief, the coils on these pickups are NOT wired in parallel, but in series as most humbuckers are.
> 
> Here is a Youtube of them:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emrz_ucK5Ww


Great tone and playing! Thanks for the link.

Just to clarify....these pickups are each 2.1 to 2.6 Kohms with no boost circuit (i.e., the pickups are totally passive and direct to the amp).

Cheers

Dave


----------



## SKATTERBRANE (Feb 14, 2013)

That is correct. They are totally passive, no boost or pre-preamp. They function just like any other humbucker pickup. There is an amp builder who uses them with boost for heavy metal, but this video is straight into the amp. I have used them with my Fender 57 Twin Tweed RI and a Les Paul and they are super clean and need nothing to play loud and clear.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

SKATTERBRANE said:


> That is correct. They are totally passive, no boost or pre-preamp. They function just like any other humbucker pickup. There is an amp builder who uses them with boost for heavy metal, but this video is straight into the amp. I have used them with my Fender 57 Twin Tweed RI and a Les Paul and they are super clean and need nothing to play loud and clear.


Thanks for the clarification. 

Again, very nice tone...Congrats!

Cheers

Dave


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

What gauge of wire, and what type of magnets?


----------



## SKATTERBRANE (Feb 14, 2013)

All I am willing to divulge about them as far as specifications go, is on my site:

http://www.skatterbranepickups.com/pickups/index.php

http://www.skatterbranepickups.com/pickups/spankbranes-pickups.php


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Fair enough. You provided as much as Dave Hunter does about your competitors in his book. Can't ask for more than that. I'm sure you must have had a "Well I'll be damned. It works." moment, when developing it because for darn sure, it is NON-STANDARD.


----------



## SKATTERBRANE (Feb 14, 2013)

Well, I was sure it was going to work, but I was crossing my fingers if I would like the tone. My number one criteria whether I offer a new model if I have to like it first. I do not offer something I do not like myself. If your desire is for a very woody, touch sensitive and dynamic tone, these have it.


----------



## SKATTERBRANE (Feb 14, 2013)

Here is a great database that was put out by a guitar cable company. I find it useful to compare real pickup output vs DCR. You can see my Spankbranes here: http://www.aqdi.com/cgi-bin/databas...katterbrane+Spankbrane+Humbucker+(bridge)&B=1 running at +5dB. Most of my others are closer to +10 dB. However check Spankbrane (red line) out compared to say DiMarzio Virtual PAF at 11.2K ohms (blue line) having around a -2 dB output! http://www.aqdi.com/cgi-bin/databas...katterbrane+Spankbrane+Humbucker+(bridge)&B=1

Basically, you can all but abandon the concept of DCR as an output indicator. Output would be measured electrically in volts, not ohms.


----------



## SKATTERBRANE (Feb 14, 2013)

Here you can see my Metalbrane with 8.8K vs SD JB at 17K having virtually the same output, but mine has it resonance peak at a higher frequency: http://www.aqdi.com/cgi-bin/databas...katterbrane+Metalbrane+Humbucker+(bridge)&B=1


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

SKATTERBRANE said:


> Basically, you can all but abandon the concept of DCR as an output indicator. Output would be measured electrically in volts, not ohms.


Once upon a time, when there were very few options for pickups, very few makers, and few models, DCR actually _*was*_ a reasonably good indicator of what you could expect in the way of output, since you pretty much knew that a 10k HB or an 8k SC were essentially the same thing as an 8K HB or a 6.5k SC - same magnets, same wire, same coilform - but with additional turns. And I would imagine that's where the association between DCR and output became established: higher DCR really _meant_ "a bit more of what you already had, on the same coil"

And it hasn't been displaced these last 45 years, despite the fact that the correlation between DCR and output has been progressively degraded as people began experimenting with magnet types, polepiece diameters, wire gauge, different insulation thicknesses, winding tension, winding pattern, bobbin height, stacking things or doubling up on coils, squishing two coils into single-coil space, and more.


----------



## SKATTERBRANE (Feb 14, 2013)

Going out of business, still have a couple of Spankbranes left (which have a very low DCR):


http://www.skatterbranepickups.com/skatterbrane-humbucker-pickups/


----------

