# Loss of tone...running a lots of pedals.



## Salokin (Nov 10, 2008)

What can we do to maximise the sound quality of our guitar and amp,
when using a lots of true bypass and buffered pedals?

Use buffers, loopers,High quality Pedals power supplies and good quality cables I guess, but I think it' s
an art to know how to use buffers! You can' t put a buffer or a buffered pedal
in front of certain Grmanium and Silicone fuzz like the Fuzz Face. Some people
say that you have to put it at the beginning of the chain, and some say that 
it' s good to put it at the end. Can you use more than one buffer...Put buffers in a looper?

Which buffered pedals are good buffer ...Boss?Ibanez?...
Which one are not very good buffering pedals? TU-2? DD5? DS-1? SD-1? OC-2?
Is a volume pedal act on your signal?
which kind of cables are recommended to use?


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## Guest (Apr 26, 2009)

Some of this, I'll say, ventures well into the realm of subjectivity. I never had any complaints with the TU-2's buffering. I ran it last. It always did it's job just fine. But I don't know if it's a well designed buffer. It meets the requirements on the input: it has a 1M input impedance. But I don't know what the output impedance of the unit is. I _suspect_ it's not low enough. A good buffer is going to run a low impedance output.

I've always preferred a buffer last, before the input of the amp, if you're only going to run one. No problem with picky pedals who like to see the load of a pickup. And if you want you can tweak the input impedance of the buffer to match the input impedance of your amp. For the neurotic...


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## forum_crawler (Sep 25, 2008)

I would use something like an MXR MC-401 as a booster/buffer. Even if you are using pedals with good buffers, having a line driver like the MXR will add a bit of sparkle to your signal.

I have one and use it as the second pedal on my chain (after a Korg Pitchblack).


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I'm curious as to why no one has put out any clones of the older pedals with a low-to-high impedance matching transformer on the input, such that you can plug in a buffered pedal to it, but the circuit thinks its looking at an impedance comparable to your guitar.


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## Guest (Apr 28, 2009)

mhammer said:


> I'm curious as to why no one has put out any clones of the older pedals with a low-to-high impedance matching transformer on the input, such that you can plug in a buffered pedal to it, but the circuit thinks its looking at an impedance comparable to your guitar.


There are a couple of guys who sell "fuzz compatible" circuits that can be added to wahs that do just this. I could have sworn Teese had a drop in board you could buy from them but I can't find it on their site now. And Greg @ Solid Gold FX does the mod on demand if anyone wants it.

Although the mods, IIRC, are for wah outputs -- so that wah -> fuzz makes the fuzz happy with an impedance that looks like a guitar pickup.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Isn't the simple solution to use fewer pedals?


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## Salokin (Nov 10, 2008)

iaresee said:


> There are a couple of guys who sell "fuzz compatible" circuits that can be added to wahs that do just this. I could have sworn Teese had a drop in board you could buy from them but I can't find it on their site now. And Greg @ Solid Gold FX does the mod on demand if anyone wants it.
> 
> Although the mods, IIRC, are for wah outputs -- so that wah -> fuzz makes the fuzz happy with an impedance that looks like a guitar pickup.


...this output buffer mod on wah is to match with a fuzz when you want to plug the wah before. Greg from Solid Gold Fx put one on my vox V847, but the wah is modded for true bypass , so I can put it before my Sun Face and Solid gold Fx Formula 69.


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## Evilmusician (Apr 13, 2007)

If is sounds good to you ,who cares what others think ,world of music would be pretty boring if we all sounded the same!


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## Alien8 (Jan 8, 2009)

> What can we do to maximize the sound quality of our guitar and amp,
> when using a lots of true bypass and buffered pedals?


You can set them all up in various orders to understand how each pedal changes the behavior of the next one in the chain, or further on. LISTEN. Don't compensate for anything. Start with what ever you have, and just try the order you like to use. If you find some weak points start troubleshooting.



> Use buffers, loopers,High quality Pedals power supplies and good quality cables I guess, but I think it' s
> an art to know how to use buffers! You can' t put a buffer or a buffered pedal
> in front of certain Germanium and Silicone fuzz like the Fuzz Face. Some people
> say that you have to put it at the beginning of the chain, and some say that
> it' s good to put it at the end. Can you use more than one buffer...Put buffers in a looper?


If you did what I said above, and found some weak points in the chain, it could be a buffer causing it, or it could be your cables. If your cables are decent quality (were not talking all George L's here) and fairly short then it's probably not that. 

Yes, some pedals don't react well to buffers. Fuzz pedals, and pedals that are sensitive to pick-up interaction sound different when a buffer is between the guitar and the pedal. Again, if you did the first thing I mentioned, experiment, you will find which pedals do this, and you will have to make a decision. What do you change? Do you remove the 'problem' pedal - which one is the problem, the sensitive one, or the other? Chances are you have what you want in your rig, so the best option is to remove the problem when you don't need it via a true bypass loop, or mod to the pedal.

Experiment, Evaluate, Observe, Decide, Correct. Remember your options: You can change the order, you can true bypass, you can remove, you can create two or more signal routes. 



> Which buffered pedals are good buffer ...Boss?Ibanez?...
> Which one are not very good buffering pedals? TU-2? DD5? DS-1? SD-1? OC-2?


Experiment & Listen. Do they effect your tone? It is an opinion, not a definite that this buffer will add 50 horsepower to your tone, or that is will remove the life out of frequencies 2k upwards, and make or bottom flabby. 

My opinion is that true bypass is a choice to be made based on the pedals position, and what it does to my tone to have it there. For instance, the buffer on my wah makes my Fuzz Factory heavy on treble. This is actually usable, however I don't always want it sounding that way, so I put it into a true bypass loop to turn off the buffer when I don't want it.

I own a number of MOOG pedals which all have buffers in them. Some color the tone, some don't. I true bypass them when I need pick-up interaction with pedals after them in the chain. This also keeps the cable length shorter to my intended effect. I chose the order of my pedals to generate sounds that are distinct, yet have the tone that makes me want to play them. I've found a pedal order hierarchy in my rig that need to be followed, or I'm missing what I need.



> Is a volume pedal act on your signal?


I've found most of them do affect your tone, except for the expensive Ernie ball one. Try learning to use your guitar's volume control, or bite the tone bullet. You need to weigh what you need to express in your sound. Do you need to have a swell effect? If you do, at what cost?



> which kind of cables are recommended to use?


Short ones. Keep them short. Durable cables are nice too. I use planet waves from axe to amp and back again. I haven't ever needed a cable that was 100 ft long, so I have never heard the cable make a difference.

My advice to you: Go test what you have. Don't be afraid to simplify, remove, and rebuild. It takes time. Concentrate on your playing first since there is no point in having perfect tone if you can't make a guitar sing.


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## Guest (May 4, 2009)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Isn't the simple solution to use fewer pedals?


Not always. Long cable runs are long cable runs. They need to be buffered or you're going to suffer from high end content loss. The best approach is an open mind. As Alien8 lays out in his post: experiment. Be patient. Try it all.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Quite true. Run a 20ft cable to a "clean booster" of your choice to another 20ft cable, and if the booster has a true bypass switch, you now have 40ft of cable tacked onto your guitar in bypass mode.

You probably want to read th article on cable capacitance found here: http://hammer.ampage.org/files/Device1-5.PDF Still true today.


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## Salokin (Nov 10, 2008)

I have found a Fuchs Plush Pure Gain, it' s suppose to be a very good buffer/clean boost. I' ll do some experimentations with pedals...and Plush buffer.


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## whammybar (May 7, 2008)

or go pretty much 'gearless'......:smile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pC3rzgprN4w


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