# Politics folder??



## pat6969 (Feb 4, 2013)

Anyone know why the political folder is gone? I enjoyed seeing people’s views and reading their opinions.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

In before the lock...

That forum is gone, new owners/admins choice.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Verboten


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## pat6969 (Feb 4, 2013)

sulphur said:


> In before the lock...
> 
> That forum is gone, new owners/admins choice.


any explanation why?


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

pat6969 said:


> any explanation why?


Not that I had noticed, just that it's been nuked.

There were a couple of related threads about it, now deleted, hence my initial comment.


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## pat6969 (Feb 4, 2013)

sulphur said:


> Not that I had noticed, just that it's been nuked.
> 
> There were a couple of related threads about it, now deleted, hence my initial comment.


Too bad, was probably the best part of this site. Fiery discussion.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

pat6969 said:


> Too bad, was probably the best part of this site. Fiery discussion.


It was a unique feature for this site and a draw for a lot of users.
I can only see this as a negative affect on the membership in the long run, opposite of the sites function, but ultimately their choice.
Usually, it boils down to a corporation covering their ass, any TOS will prove that to you.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

There are hundreds of community sites on the Web covering everything from cars to cooking to music. None of them suffered from not having a political thread (they usually suffered for other reasons like competition from FB and whatnot).

If people want to yammer on about ideologies, no one's stopping them from visiting offtopic.com or any number of other political sites to unleash their vitriol there.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

FatStrat2 said:


> There are hundreds of community sites on the Web covering everything from cars to cooking to music. None of them suffered from not having a political thread (they usually suffered for other reasons like competition from FB and whatnot).
> 
> If people want to yammer on about ideologies, no one's stopping them from visiting offtopic.com or any number of other political sites to unleash their vitriol there.


I don't disagree, but that section was hidden that you had to opt into.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

pat6969 said:


> any explanation why?





https://www.guitarscanada.com/threads/what-where-are-the-new-section-rules.276225/


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

sulphur said:


> I don't disagree, but that section was hidden that you had to opt into.


The sad part, is how many folks it attracted that then contributed to threads "out here". This was seen as an all encompassing site, where you could discuss the obvious music stuff, but the Open Mic had some great off-topic shares, and then the Political section allowed an even deeper dive into non-musical opinions. It also kept it out of the open forums. I never went in, but I know a lot did. Those folks will seek out alternative sites to scratch that itch, and spend less time on GC as a whole I think. 

It's not an area I will miss, but I will miss the contributions of the folks who enjoyed it that now may not visit as much.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

SWLABR said:


> Those folks will seek out alternative sites to scratch that itch, and spend less time on GC as a whole I think.


Done. I already registered on a guitar site that has a closed political section. I did not post much in the political section here but I found it useful as a reference for articles that people posted with respect to certain subjects. I never got into a big argument with anyone in the political forum so I did not find it problematic from that standpoint. As for guitars, there are a lot of sites where I can find whatever information I need. I will continue to monitor this site from time to time in the event that some of the meet ups with local members or the riffraff jam starts up again.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

There are a lot of great contributors to this site, I'm sure we'll carry on fine.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

pat6969 said:


> any explanation why?


Pre Bill C36 passing in the Senate.....where pre crime/thought crime can become a reality. In the Political Forum we got to speak openly about everything from open discussions about the virus and treatment, to sleepy Joe, the useless fools in Canadian parliament, Indigenous policy, and all the other new theocracies around unspeakable subjects in today's society. Fun place to hang.....adults having an open and honest discussion. Go figure.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

FatStrat2 said:


> There are a lot of great contributors to this site, I'm sure we'll carry on fine.


I don't disagree. It's a guitar site first and foremost, with a fantastic knowledge base. Some of the "characters" who filled out the rest were a lot of fun. Just saying I will miss them. I'm probably not alone.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

SWLABR said:


> I don't disagree. It's a guitar site first and foremost, with a fantastic knowledge base. Some of the "characters" who filled out the rest were a lot of fun. Just saying I will miss them. I'm probably not alone.


Gee shucks.....I'll miss you too SWLABR.....


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

HighNoon said:


> Gee shucks.....I'll miss you too SWLABR.....


Hmmmm... misunderstood intent due to the limitations of the medium. Are you going somewhere, or am I??


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The DIYstompbox forum has a noticeably longer history than this place, and a much bigger membership. One of the consistent comments we get from new members is just how welcoming and friendly a place it is, especially compared to other forums they've been on. One of the ways in which that spirit is preserved is by *not* having a political section. People DO occasionally make incursions into the political-matters realm, but are gently nudged away from it, or else nudge themselves. Makes for a much happier place where neighbours get along.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

SWLABR said:


> Hmmmm... misunderstood intent due to the limitations of the medium. Are you going somewhere, or am I??


I'll miss the open discussions and all the really smart and informed individuals in that forum. The delete crowd is coming....I'll probably just fade away (to a Bo Diddley beat).


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

mhammer said:


> The DIYstompbox forum has a noticeably longer history than this place, and a much bigger membership. One of the consistent comments we get from new members is just how welcoming and friendly a place it is, especially compared to other forums they've been on. One of the ways in which that spirit is preserved is by *not* having a political section. People DO occasionally make incursions into the political-matters realm, but are gently nudged away from it, or else nudge themselves. Makes for a much happier place where neighbours get along.


A perfect example of new think. Notice how the 'not' is highlighted in case your reading comprehension needs a little nudge.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

He's just emphasizing his point.

Certain hot button issues like abortion, religion, politics, etc. are too contentious for places like guitar forums. There are plenty of venues for that and I'm gratified they exist. People should just go there instead if they don't want to discuss guitars, it's really that simple.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

mhammer said:


> The DIYstompbox forum has a noticeably longer history than this place, and a *much bigger membership*. One of the consistent comments we get from new members is just how welcoming and friendly a place it is, especially compared to other forums they've been on. One of the ways in which that spirit is preserved is by not having a political section. People DO occasionally make incursions into the political-matters realm, but are gently nudged away from it, or else nudge themselves. Makes for a much happier place where neighbours get along.


I used to check in on a vinyl forum, but the membership was staggeringly large. If you looked at or commented on a topic, then left to look at something else, the first one would disappear to page 3 or 4 because so many people were chiming in on all manor of topics. A thread can stay on page 1 here for days, sometimes weeks even with minimal replies. There, within minutes it got bumped and buried. I like the small group who frequents GC. Time will tell if it actually does get smaller.


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

SWLABR said:


> I used to check in on a vinyl forum, but the membership was staggeringly large. If you looked at or commented on a topic, then left to look at something else, the first one would disappear to page 3 or 4 because so many people were chiming in on all manor of topics. A thread can stay on page 1 here for days, sometimes weeks even with minimal replies. There, within minutes it got bumped and buried. I like the small group who frequents GC. Time will tell if it actually does get smaller.


That's why I stopped going to TGP. Now I only use it for reference. Want to hear what people are saying about a pedal? I will google with TGP at the end. 

Some may be surprised to know that others don't want to belong to a bunch of different forums. This place was a good one stop shop with a small community. 

I have signed up at another community as well. We will see how it goes.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

laristotle said:


> https://www.guitarscanada.com/threads/what-where-are-the-new-section-rules.276225/
> 
> 
> View attachment 372213



Something hidden that you had to seek access to distracted from the core purpose of the community? Personally, I'd say it added to it but since this place is now owned by an entity that is owned by the _Toronto Star_ it is hardly surprising that they would want to shut down something that contained opinions that didn't align with their particular worldview.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

SWLABR said:


> The sad part, is how many folks it attracted that then contributed to threads "out here". This was seen as an all encompassing site, where you could discuss the obvious music stuff, but the Open Mic had some great off-topic shares, and then the Political section allowed an even deeper dive into non-musical opinions. It also kept it out of the open forums. I never went in, but I know a lot did. Those folks will seek out alternative sites to scratch that itch, and spend less time on GC as a whole I think.
> 
> It's not an area I will miss, but I will miss the contributions of the folks who enjoyed it that now may not visit as much.



Yeah the powers that be clearly never considered the potential decrease in traffic and the resulting negative impact on ad revenues.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

There are a bunch of different boards to accommodate a bunch of different topics, that makes sense to me. I belong to several of them for cars, high end audio, etc. and they've shut down any political threads too - but years back. Their memberships are thriving (as much as FB takes them away, that is).


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

FatStrat2 said:


> There are a bunch of different boards to accommodate a bunch of different topics, that makes sense to me. I belong to several of them for cars, high end audio, etc. and they've shut down any political threads too - but years back. Their memberships are thriving (as much as FB takes them away, that is).



So what?

We're talking about this place, and one of its unique features was that it allowed political discussion for those who chose to participate. It was especially appealing as it was uniquely Canadian political discussion which is hard to find online.

If people didn't like the political discussion they didn't have to participate, or even see any of it. That seemed like a perfectly reasonable approach. But the thought police at Torstar could never allow something like that to continue.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

fretzel said:


> I have signed up at another community as well. We will see how it goes.



The guy in charge over there is a real arsehole!


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

colchar said:


> But the thought police at Torstar could never allow something like that to continue.


Didn't they also receive a chunk of the feds $630M slush fund for select media companies?


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

laristotle said:


> Didn't they also receive a chunk of the feds $630M slush fund for select media companies?



Oh yeah, they ponied up to that trough damned quick. Payback for all the years they spent being the Liberal's unofficial mouthpiece.


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

colchar said:


> The guy in charge over there is a real arsehole!


That's what they keep telling me. "Turn back, before it's too late!"


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

colchar said:


> Oh yeah, they ponied up to that trough damned quick. Payback for all the years they spent being the Liberal's unofficial mouthpiece.


Some people get paid to be a shill. Others seem to do it for free. LOL


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

fretzel said:


> Some people get paid to be a shill. Others seem to do it for free. LOL


or for a future senate appointment. lol


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

colchar said:


> ...If people didn't like the political discussion they didn't have to participate...


If members have to go to a guitar forum as a last venue for political discussion, first off 1) a person needs to acknowledge the strangeness of that and 2) one has to step back and ask why that is.

I definitely agree the media like to cap this stuff though, that's a no brainer. And it's not just Torstar.


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## Verne (Dec 29, 2018)

Wardo said:


> Done. I already registered on a guitar site that has a closed political section. I did not post much in the political section here but I found it useful as a reference for articles that people posted with respect to certain subjects. I never got into a big argument with anyone in the political forum so I did not find it problematic from that standpoint. As for guitars, there are a lot of sites where I can find whatever information I need. I will continue to monitor this site from time to time in the event that some of the meet ups with local members or the riffraff jam starts up again.


Is this why you are a purple W now instead of the guy wearing the hat in his avatar? You slowly distancing yourself for the complete disappearance?


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

FatStrat2 said:


> If members have to go to a guitar forum as a last venue for political discussion, first off 1) a person needs to acknowledge the strangeness of that and 2) one has to step back and ask why that is.


As far as I know the political section has been a part of this forum since its inception. So while you may find it strange, others do/did not.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

FatStrat2 said:


> If members have to go to a guitar forum as a last venue for political discussion, first off 1) a person needs to acknowledge the strangeness of that and 2) one has to step back and ask why that is.


We like to discuss things besides guitars from time to time, like this thread for instance.
Sometimes it's a naughty joke that someone wants to share, but wouldn't be tolerated out here.
Politics was just a handle to use. There were a lot of threads there that didn't deal with politics.
Mature adult content, you could say. Don't want to upset the woke crowd.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

FatStrat2 said:


> If members have to go to a guitar forum as a last venue for political discussion, first off 1) a person needs to acknowledge the strangeness of that and 2) one has to step back and ask why that is.


Easy answer... Some of us have little time to spend online in any sort of community, so we limit ourselves to a few as possible. In my case, just this one. I like that there are Off Topic sections, so I don't have to limit my discussions to just guitars.


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

@FatStrat2 did you ask for permission to access the political forum?


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

FatStrat2 said:


> There are hundreds of community sites on the Web covering everything from cars to cooking to music. None of them suffered from not having a political thread (they usually suffered for other reasons like competition from FB and whatnot).
> 
> If people want to yammer on about ideologies, no one's stopping them from visiting offtopic.com or any number of other political sites to unleash their vitriol there.





FatStrat2 said:


> He's just emphasizing his point.
> 
> Certain hot button issues like abortion, religion, politics, etc. are too contentious for places like guitar forums. There are plenty of venues for that and I'm gratified they exist. People should just go there instead if they don't want to discuss guitars, it's really that simple.



the reason is, BECAUSE we ARE a community here. when i was going in there, it was because i was able to discuss those things with people HERE, people i "know". political discussion somewhere else isn't the same because i don't know any of those assholes, and i may not have anything in common with them. at least here, i was discussing those things with people i like and respect, even if i don't agree with their politics.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

I agree with all that above, and I understand completely.

But anyone who's sentient and has been living in human society for 5 minutes should know that politics, abortion, terrorism, religion, etc. aren't 'just' discussions no matter what people think. They are controversial at best and get people's blood boiling as much as solid state vs tube. So you play with fire, someone's either going to get burnt or someone else is going to put it out.

Why has pretty much everyone else canned those sections? It's obvious.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

FatStrat2 said:


> They are controversial at best and get people's blood boiling as much as solid state vs tube. So you play with fire, someone's either going to get burnt or someone else is going to put it out.
> 
> Why has pretty much everyone else canned those sections? It's obvious.


Freedom of speech has become a hot topic lately, I agree.
It's when it's curtailed/censored because of 'feelings', it needs to be protected and promoted even more so.


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

That's the great thing about being a member of multiple forums. A larger audience to preach to.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

FatStrat2 said:


> I agree with all that above, and I understand completely.
> 
> But anyone who's sentient and has been living in human society for 5 minutes should know that politics, abortion, terrorism, religion, etc. aren't 'just' discussions no matter what people think. They are controversial at best and get people's blood boiling as much as solid state vs tube. So you play with fire, someone's either going to get burnt or someone else is going to put it out.
> 
> Why has pretty much everyone else canned those sections? It's obvious.


I know you’re new here, but the forum’s been around 15 years, and quite a few of us have known each other fairly well most of that time. Political was started by the original founder and word is that when he sold there was a clause it was to stay, which speaks to how many of us feel it is part of the fabric of the place. It’s jarring that it’s not a part of my daily reading. There were are lots of people reading and linking sources I would not otherwise see, did I read them all no, but read a lot, whether I agreed with the premises presented or not. I feel that was to my benefit. And irreplaceable, given that I also knew the people posting, several in the flesh. 

In other news, old man shouts at clouds.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

FatStrat2 said:


> If members have to go to a guitar forum as a last venue for political discussion, first off 1) a person needs to acknowledge the strangeness of that and 2) one has to step back and ask why that is.



Get over yourself. You need to learn that your opinions are not facts. People came here to talk guitars, amps, music, etc. but also liked the fact that they could talk about politics, particularly Canadian politics. There are only so many threads one can read about pick guard on or off, NGD, NAD, which speaker works best with amp X, best cab for head Y, etc. By your logic (and I use the term loosely here) there shouldn't be an off-topic area of any kind and anyone who comes here and participates in it needs to acknowledge the strangeness of that and ask why they feel the need to do so. 

See how stupid your comments were?


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Verne said:


> Is this why you are a purple W now instead of the guy wearing the hat in his avatar? You slowly distancing yourself for the complete disappearance?


He's incognito.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

cheezyridr said:


> the reason is, BECAUSE we ARE a community here. when i was going in there, it was because i was able to discuss those things with people HERE, people i "know". political discussion somewhere else isn't the same because i don't know any of those assholes, and i may not have anything in common with them. at least here, i was discussing those things with people i like and respect, even if i don't agree with their politics.


Agreed.

And if you've been here for more than ten seconds you _have_ to know that your position is fucked if you have me and Cheezy in agreement.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

FatStrat2 said:


> I agree with all that above, and I understand completely.
> 
> But anyone who's sentient and has been living in human society for 5 minutes should know that politics, abortion, terrorism, religion, etc. aren't 'just' discussions no matter what people think. They are controversial at best and get people's blood boiling as much as solid state vs tube. So you play with fire, someone's either going to get burnt or someone else is going to put it out.


Which is why ours was private. You had to want to go in there, and if you did you agreed that you might read things you didn't like. Grownups can do that and don't need to be protected from positions that differ from theirs.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

keto said:


> I know you’re new here, but the forum’s been around 15 years, and quite a few of us have known each other fairly well most of that time. Political was started by the original founder and word is that when he sold there was a clause it was to stay, which speaks to how many of us feel it is part of the fabric of the place.



If that clause exists, it does make you wonder how they can now justify dumping it. We need a lawyer to look at the sale agreement. @Wardo you wanna get on that for us? There's a good man.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

SWLABR said:


> I don't disagree. It's a guitar site first and foremost, with a fantastic knowledge base. Some of the "characters" who filled out the rest were a lot of fun. Just saying I will miss them. I'm probably not alone.


Honestly, and no disrespect to anyone, this site isn’t the de facto guitar knowledge base for me. If I want info about Gibsons, this site is not the best source of info. Same with Fenders, amps etc. I can find better sources for all of those…some of the best resources here, such as Tim Plains, are also on those other sites too. So that’s not a unique differentiation.
Musical appreciation discussions seem to fall into a few categories ( british blues, 60’s/70’s album rock, and obscure jazz guitarists) so not really my cup of tea either.

the draw for me here is the community for OT and Politics, especially for the Canadian perspective.
otherwise, it’s mostly just a guitar buy and sell board, for my purposes, which I would only use sporadically. So, I’m going to see how things shake out, but based on the vibes I’m getting from admins here, I likely won’t be around much down the road. Not as a statement, just out of lack of interest in the “new and improved“ product.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

colchar said:


> Get over yourself. You need to learn that your opinions are not facts. People came here to talk guitars, amps, music, etc. but also liked the fact that they could talk about politics, particularly Canadian politics. There are only so many threads one can read about pick guard on or off, NGD, NAD, which speaker works best with amp X, best cab for head Y, etc. By your logic (and I use the term loosely here) there shouldn't be an off-topic area of any kind and anyone who comes here and participates in it needs to acknowledge the strangeness of that and ask why they feel the need to do so.
> 
> See how stupid your comments were?


That's not quite what I posted.

You mentioned that this is one of the last places to discuss politics. I posted that it's strange that people come here as a last resort for political discussion, a guitar forum of all places.

But maybe it's my perspective of this, and I can acknowledge that. Most of the forums I visit don't have off topic sections, like at all - nothing, and they never did from the get-go. It's possible they may be hidden, but after being on them for so many years, I think I would have caught wind of that fairly early (just like here).

Unlike what some may speculate, these forums w/o off topic sections are not dry & lifeless (at least to me), there's still plenty of content and good camaraderie too. I think the difference too is I ain't here to make friends (nor enemies), but if I do make friends it's a bonus. I'm here to pick some great technical minds and contribute what I can to the forum in return.

Given that, I think it's unfair the political section from here was yanked without warning, but you'll get over it.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

colchar said:


> If that clause exists, it does make you wonder how they can now justify dumping it. We need a lawyer to look at the sale agreement. @Wardo you wanna get on that for us? There's a good man.


Rights, principles, truth, beauty; all that stuff costs money, how much do you want to spend .. lol.

Assuming such an agreement exists (which I kinda doubt) it comes down to who are the contractal parties and what is the aggrieved party going to do in order to enforce the agreement.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

[


Verne said:


> Is this why you are a purple W now instead of the guy wearing the hat in his avatar? You slowly distancing yourself for the complete disappearance?


Figured I'd remove it while I still had access to my account.

My brother-in-law tells me that my appearance is offensive to the type of people who read the Toronto Star - he's an electrical engineer so he knows all about that kinda stuff .. lol


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Wardo said:


> Rights, principles, truth, beauty; all that stuff costs money, how much do you want to spend .. lol.
> 
> Assuming such an agreement exists (which I kinda doubt) it comes down to who are the contractal parties and what is the aggrieved party going to do in order to enforce the agreement.


I‘m getting a little forgetful, but didn’t the forum change hands twice?

Beyond that, hard to say how able or willing Scott is. Been a long time now since we saw him last.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Diablo said:


> Musical appreciation discussions seem to fall into a few categories ( british blues, 60’s/70’s album rock, and obscure jazz guitarists) so not really my cup of tea either.


Sorry man, I know its your thing but there just ain't that much interest in guitar based polka music.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Wardo said:


> Rights, principles, truth, beauty; all that stuff costs money, how much do you want to spend .. lol.



I'll pay you tree-fiddy.


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## LouisFNCyphre (Apr 23, 2021)

colchar said:


> Sorry man, I know its your thing but there just ain't that much interest in guitar based polka music.


We could always discuss grindcore. 🧐


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

LouisFNCyphre said:


> We could always discuss grindcore. 🧐



I think it would be more productive, not to mention instructive, to spend our time discussing why The Shaggs are the epitome of American music.


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

Wardo said:


> Rights, principles, truth, beauty; all that stuff costs money, how much do you want to spend .. lol.





colchar said:


> I'll pay you tree-fiddy.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

It’s about freaking time! I’ve been asking for this for years. I come here for guitars not for the BS rants of a few loud mouth members. Yeah yeah, it was optional bla bla. The crap in the sub group always seeped out into the main forum. 

I won’t bother posting on this thread again as I’ve been through this a million times here and have heard the ridiculous ‘free speech’ arguments all before.

Good riddance political forum,
TG


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

So I'm considering building a bigger combo enclosure for my new Garnet Gnome. Not sure how feasible it is or if I would be better off just hiring somebody to do it. Thoughts?

TG


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Tsk tsk, name calling - the cry of the desperate, the defeated.

Like Rhett, I don't give a damn if that forum is here or not, makes no difference to me. I simply maintain as I have from the get-go that it doesn't belong on a site called guitarscanada.com anymore than talking abortion on a recipe forum does. That's my opinion and I'll maintain that stance until entropy dissolves the universe.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Good times….


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

FatStrat2 said:


> Like Rhett, I don't give a damn if that forum is here or not, makes no difference to me. I simply *maintain as I have from the get-go* that it doesn't belong on a site called guitarscanada.com anymore than talking abortion on a recipe forum does. That's my opinion and I'll maintain that stance until entropy dissolves the universe.


"_Maintained from the get-go_"?? You joined 3 months ago! 

Tell us, do you usually show up somewhere and immediately start imposing your whims and desires on a group of people who have maintained at fairly decent (for the most part) culture for decades?? Your way or the highway is it?? 

Or are you a banned member incarnate carrying the torch of past grudges?


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Oh relax, I posted I don't care either way, but you're not getting it. Get-go meaning from the beginning of the thread. No need for the backflips.


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## jayoldschool (Sep 12, 2013)

The Politics section is gone. Please enjoy the forum. Please stick to the rules. No need for name calling.


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