# I am done with expensive guitars...cheap guitars rule!!!!



## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

So I am one of those evil flippers. I do it out of a love of guitars. I love getting a new axe and stripping it down, cleaning and polishing the frets, I do a good set-up and try to make 100$ here and there.
But....and its 100% of the time, every guitar I have bought over 1000$ I have lost money.

I have owned probably close to a 1000 guitars. I have my collection down to 5. Two of them were 300$ and 200$ and they are the two best guitars I have ever played. 

1. Cort Hiram Bullock signature. By far, the finest guitar I have ever owned or played. Birdseye maple neck, light swamp ash body, Wilkinson tremolo and roller nut, Sperzel locking tuners, nice inset dunlop strap locks.
and it came with a really nice thick old leather strap. It has Epiphone humbuckersand a no name single coil and it will out-strat and out LP any vintage guitar I have owned......300$.
Try putting that together for under 2k!!!
If you ever see one of these guitars, buy it!! There is a reason they are rare.

2. 70's eL Degas Les Paul Special copy. Set neck lightweight guitar. I put on Gibson Kluson tuners and its an awesome guitar. I sold my '59 LP Jr as the pickups on this thing actually sounded better.

Thats it....I am done with expensive guitars. Share your "cheap", but unique guitars!!


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I picked up a used 2015 Junior for cheap and it just rings when it's not plugged in plus there's not a dud note on the neck.

Heaven is where you find it and you can't take too much with you when you go.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

This is from a store in the USA-however it is another Cort which is rare:

Cort Matthias Jabs (USED) | Parkway Music


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

Those 2015 Juniors are great guitars and can be had cheap. I didn't mention, but one of my three basses is a Cort acoustic bass. Cort made some really really nice instruments that are, IMHO, as good as anything ever made.


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## SaucyJack (Mar 8, 2017)

Love that el Degas!!!


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## pat6969 (Feb 4, 2013)

Same here. Too many good guitars for cheap these days.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

This was a fantastic Cort I sold to another forum member. He ended up with my les trem as well and I believe it's on the guitar now.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

adcandour said:


> This was a fantastic Cort I sold to another forum member. He ended up with my les trem as well and I believe it's on the guitar now.
> 
> View attachment 150665


Mmm. I wanted that one.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

What model is that hollowbody? There is one locally I am thinking about getting as I don't have a hollowbody in my stable. I'm sure that for 300$ its a great guitar.


guitare cort SOURCE | Guitares | Ville de Montréal | Kijiji


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

I owned two of those degas guitars. 

Cheap is the way to go. Get stable wood and doff you go.


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

That el degas I’ve owned two. Awesome guitars


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

"Cheap" can definitely be the way to go. There are some great older "off brand" guitars out there that can be had cheap and inexpensively upgraded to become terrific players. Some early 80's MIJ offerings certainly come to mind. "Cheap" is not necessarily limited to lesser known guitars either, as evidenced by the '15 Jr above. My #1 since acquiring it 5 yrs ago is not off brand either - a '62 SG Special - but was obtained _real_ cheap and has needed nothing since it's initial set up.


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## Jimi D (Oct 27, 2008)

you know, when someone says their swamp ash bolt-on with a trem can "out LP" a vintage Les Paul, I know the hyperbole has run off with reason... cheap's fine if that's what you like, there are lots of cheap guitars out there... most of them nowadays are actually playable/usable instruments which makes them a hell of a lot better than what we were saddled with in the low range in the 60s and 70s... and there are no doubt some gems out there, instruments that demonstrate the importance of synchronicity in guitar manufacture... I've got some great cheap guitars; a PRS SE One I threw a Thorn Staple-Top into, a beater Yamaha acoustic that takes a licking but still plays and sounds great, and an Epi DOT Studio that's basically a prop guitar but still plays quite well and cuts through a hard rock band mix really decently... That said, in the end no Cort is a Suhr, and you basically do get what you pay for... imo 

You know what you never see in professional orchestras? "Cheap" violins... not even ones that the owners swear are "just as good as a Stradivarius"...


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

Here’s one of my cheapies; a 2013 SG 50’s Tribute from when they were blowing them out at Bestbuy for $400. The Bigsby + Vibramate cost almost as much as the guitar. The only pic I have of her right now.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

In my mind calling something cheap implies that it's poorly made. Affordable is probably a better term for what you're describing.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I find it amusing that so many people have a problem when a guitar runs into 4 figures but then go out and buy a couple Strymons and an Eventide for their pedalboard. I guess it's all perspective.


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## luker0 (Apr 18, 2017)

High/Deaf said:


> I find it amusing that so many people have a problem when a guitar runs into 4 figures but then go out and buy a couple Strymons and an Eventide for their pedalboard. I guess it's all perspective.


Well if you buy a $900 guitar instead of a $2000 one that leaves you with money for two strymon pedals. How is that math hard to understand? 

Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I find it amusing that people focus on cost versus finding the best guitar for them.

Out of curiousity: If some divine being gives you a guitar that without doubt is the best guitar you will ever play. How much would you pay for _that_?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

luker0 said:


> Well if you buy a $900 guitar instead of a $2000 one that leaves you with money for two strymon pedals. How is that math hard to understand?
> 
> Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk


Sure. Or you could buy the $2000 guitar and a couple MS70's. Neither scenario will sound better or worse - it's all taste. And of all that stuff, only one will retain it's value down the road.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Jimi D said:


> You know what you never see in professional orchestras? "Cheap" violins... not even ones that the owners swear are "just as good as a Stradivarius"...


I have often wondered how gear crazy orchestral musicians might be. By that, I mean all of them, not just the violinists.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

adcandour said:


> I find it amusing that people focus on cost versus finding the best guitar for them.
> 
> Out of curiousity: If some divine being gives you a guitar that without doubt is the best guitar you will ever play. How much would you pay for _that_?



Having vast amounts of disposable income isn't a reality for most people so, out of necessity, they seek out what's "best within budget".

And that's a trick question since the divine being is simply giving us the guitar and, being omnipotent, would have no need to charge us for it ;^ )


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

StevieMac said:


> Having vast amounts of disposable income isn't the reality for most people so, out of necessity, they seek out what's "best within budget".
> 
> And that's a trick question since the divine being is simply giving us the guitar and, being omnipotent, would have no need to charge us for it ;^ )


Easy Descartes....my point is that neither cheap guitars nor expensive guitars "rule". The one that _rules _rules_. 
_


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2017)

adcandour said:


> Out of curiousity: If some divine being gives you a guitar that without doubt is the best guitar you will ever play. How much would you pay for _that_?


your soul?


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

laristotle said:


> your soul?


I have no soul, so I'll give him my son. I think they're into that.


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

I, am a BIG fan of the Squier CV Series.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Jimi D said:


> You know what you never see in professional orchestras? "Cheap" violins... not even ones that the owners swear are "just as good as a Stradivarius"...


awesome analogy - except for the actual science that proved it's completely false, and they are gear snobs just as many guitarists are. 

The Violin World

Is A Stradivarius Violin Easier To Hear? Science Says Nope

Blind-tested soloists unable to tell Stradivarius violins from modern instruments

even on a more base level, chappers and andertons have dome blind tests between quires and fenders, epis and gibbys. they found very similar results. especially with guitars, there are many other factors that affect the sound more than the instrument itself. as for feel and playability the results were also similar.



adcandour said:


> I have no soul, so I'll give him my son. I think they're into that.


who are "they"? catholic priests? british politicians? roman polanski? hahhahaha


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

Jimi D said:


> That said, in the end no Cort is a Suhr, and you basically do get what you pay for... imo


Said the guy who probably owns a lot of expensive guitars. The only difference between this and a bolt on neck Suhr is the name on the headstock and the amount the guy was paid to build it.


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## 59burst (May 27, 2010)

I've had a Fender MIM reissue strat that I bought new on sale for $400 and it caused me to sell my CS Fender strats.

I love high end guitars. Today I'm playing my custom ordered Gibson L5 Signature. But I am not hung up on price. I play my daughter's $500 acoustic as much as my Collings.

So, I don't think it is either/or.


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

There was a time i could pay 1000.00 for a guitar but now i am more in the 500-600 range. I lean towards the CV Squier line as good examples. With a few mods, they make great gigging guitars. Never afraid of getting them stolen or broken and you can always find a deal somewhere.


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## dodgechargerfan (Mar 22, 2006)

I’d say the one I miss the most is the Vantage I had years ago. Bought it for around $100. 
Sold it for $90 a few years later.

As for what’s in the stable now, I bought an Aria Diamond Pro II that is a Mosrite look alike. I got it in a bundle of parts and other things. The cost of the guitar netted out to about $40. The only problem I’ve found with it is a finish chip on the lower bout and I might have done that myself. It kind of lifted from the body but it was definitely due to being knocked and banged. I was able to glue it back down. Otherwise, it plays great and the P90s sound awesome.


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## John Fisher (Aug 6, 2017)

Thanks for the Jabs pic. I did not know he was doing that with Cort. Has anyone played one? I am really intrigued. Thanks


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

I have some of each end of the spectrum.
The ones that stay in your hands are the keepers.
The rest may be very nice to own and play once in a while, but I am starting to find them not as necessary to have anymore.

Cheap? Inexpensive? It is all relative to what makes you smile, and is that smile enough reason to keep it?


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> I find it amusing that so many people have a problem when a guitar runs into 4 figures but then go out and buy a couple Strymons and an Eventide for their pedalboard. I guess it's all perspective.


I've gotten a lot better tangible ROI from owning some eventides than by paying the equivalent extra amount towards a guitar.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

marcos said:


> There was a time i could pay 1000.00 for a guitar but now i am more in the 500-600 range.


That's probably in part because a $1000 guitar in 2004 is the same specs and quality as a $600 guitar today. Seymour Duncans, Dimarzios and EMG's used to be a sign of a higher tier production guitar - now they come in near-base model instruments. Same thing with amps - $800 amps in 2010 sound like the $300 amps now (boss Katana and Fender Mustang anyone?).

I really don't care what someone paid for their instrument, or what type of instrument it is. How good of a player are they?

I own mid-high end gear because it makes me want to play better, it's reliable, and it gives me the satisfaction I want from making music. If I could get all that with 5 boss pedals and two epiphone LP standards I'd still be near broke .


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

adcandour said:


> ... If some divine being gives you a guitar that without doubt is the best guitar you will ever play. How much would you pay for _that_?


I would pay maybe $400 but the guitar would have to be at least 60 years old and come from a dingy pawn shop with it's original case which would be beat to snot and have my name written on it in faded gold paint.


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## bigboki (Apr 16, 2015)

Budda said:


> That's probably in part because a $1000 guitar in 2004 is the same specs and quality as a $600 guitar today. Seymour Duncans, Dimarzios and EMG's used to be a sign of a higher tier production guitar - now they come in near-base model instruments. Same thing with amps - $800 amps in 2010 sound like the $300 amps now (boss Katana and Fender Mustang anyone?).


Absolutely could not agree more.



Budda said:


> I really don't care what someone paid for their instrument, or what type of instrument it is. How good of a player are they?


THIS - this is best sentence that every player should think all the time.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

capnjim said:


> Said the guy who probably owns a lot of expensive guitars. The only difference between this and a bolt on neck Suhr is the name on the headstock and the amount the guy was paid to build it.


Lmao lets stop sniffing glue here


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Well, some years ago, after had an argument with my wife about my "silly investment" ($3200 on my first brand new solid wood acoustic, Taylor 510, I could honestly barely afford at the moment, but it did bookmark may fiftieth birthday !), I tried to figure out the cost of my pleasure to play a dream pricey guitar.

Let's take the example of my Taylor GS-5 : some 2000$ (1450$US = some 1600$ CAD at the moment, plus taxes and 150$ for luthier's work; brand new : 3500-4000$ these days). I have now played it for four to five hours a week during the last four years or so : So 4 x 52 x 4-5 hrs = some 800-1000 hrs, make it some 2$/pleasure hour ! Less than going to a movie a week (transportation, parking and popcorn included ! lol !) or attending a show a month. Let's suppose I would have rent it, what 50$ a month ? 2400$ ??

The brand new 510 of my fiftieth birthday would come to same cost as I have now played it for ten years. Well, weren't they worth it ?!

By the way, I buy strings in bunch to save some more bucks...

It is all about taste vs budget... and priorities. Some smoke, drink in bars, lunch in restaurants, change car frequently, travel... while I play my guitars.

Will I lose money at the end of the day, when I have to let almost all of them go ? Well, over the last ten years, I bought many nice used guitars while upgrading my herd, and many of them did have to leave place for others to get in my home : according to market price and the amount I paid, I did lose money on some and made some money on great deals I happened to get, but overall, I would say I am fortunately quite even in money but fund of pleasure !

Overall, if you really enjoy playing guitar, or any other instrument, I do not think you will ever lose anything ! Don't we see that in the tears of a grand'pa giving his last beloved instrument to a grand'child ?


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## Jimi D (Oct 27, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> awesome analogy - except for the actual science that proved it's completely false, and they are gear snobs just as many guitarists are.
> 
> The Violin World
> 
> ...


None of these instruments they were comparing against were "cheap"... they were Strads vs "contemporary" maker violins or Strads vs other Strads and 18th C violins... I'd bet you not one of those contemporary violins is worth less than $25,000... but I can buy a student violin for $400...


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## Jimi D (Oct 27, 2008)

capnjim said:


> Said the guy who probably owns a lot of expensive guitars. The only difference between this and a bolt on neck Suhr is the name on the headstock and the amount the guy was paid to build it.


That statement is not just factually wrong, it's kinda stupid...

I've owned a couple Corts, and for a budget "strat-a-like" I was seriously considering buying another one recently... I'm not suggesting they aren't perfectly good guitars, but saying it's the same as a Suhr belies an ignorance that is staggering... And just because that is _your_ honest opinion, doesn't change the fact that it's a really _bad_ opinion...


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

Why is it stupid? Its the same basic materials, made the same way. The only difference is the neck on the Cort is probably a lot nicer.

Anyways, there is no point arguing with people who judge their guitars based solely on the price tag. We are all entitled to our opinions.
Anyone else got a nice low cost guitar??


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## Jimi D (Oct 27, 2008)

capnjim said:


> Why is it stupid? Its the same basic materials, made the same way. The only difference is the neck on the Cort is probably a lot nicer.


"same basic materials"...? I suppose if you say all the parts started out as trees and minerals in the ground, you'd be right... 

But no, you're right... a production line instrument fresh out of a second rate Korean factory (ftr, the Peerless factory, where Reverend, PRS and Duesenberg guitars are made is a first rate Korean factory), will surely have a neck that is nicer than one crafted from hand selected woods, fretted to order, and finished with hours of hand work and a full Plek-finishing and setup... oh, and monkey's will probably fly out of my butt any minute now... 

I'm done here; it's nice you like what you like, but pretending you're driving a Ferrari while shouting "vroom! vroom!" in your Hyundai doesn't fool anyone...


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

Jimi D said:


> But no, you're right


Thats all I read.
Thanks for seeing the light!!


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

My Peavey 335 copy was $200.00

However, I recently played a $4,600.00 Gibson 335 that was amazing.

I guess I will remain confused about this topic forever.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Jimi D said:


> but pretending you're driving a Ferrari while shouting "vroom! vroom!" in your Hyundai doesn't fool anyone...


Thanks for painting this picture...it is my laugh for the day.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

capnjim said:


> Why is it stupid? Its the same basic materials, made the same way. The only difference is the neck on the Cort is probably a lot nicer.
> 
> Anyways, there is no point arguing with people who judge their guitars based solely on the price tag. We are all entitled to our opinions.
> Anyone else got a nice low cost guitar??


Your argument is full of contradictions. At first you say they're the same but different names on the headstock, then you say its the same basic materials. then you go on to say somehow the neck is a lot nicer on the cort. If there was an example of someone trying to justify what they own contrary to logic and reason, this would be it.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Jimi D said:


> None of these instruments they were comparing against were "cheap"... they were Strads vs "contemporary" maker violins or Strads vs other Strads and 18th C violins... I'd bet you not one of those contemporary violins is worth less than $25,000... but I can buy a student violin for $400...


you're right of course, none of those were cheap. my point of it was that the branding of tone is subjective even to musicians of such elevated standards & abilities as those.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2017)

greco said:


> Thanks for painting this picture...it is my laugh for the day.


Me too. I'm glad that I wasn't drinking anything.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Capnjim, you are reiterating what I've been saying for years. Once you get to a certain price point, it's all subjective and many times it's bling that is being paid for, not better quality or tone. The marketing boys have done a great job in convincing people that if they buy the expensive guitar, they will be a better player, it will sound better and they will look better and have more prestige in front of their peers (and maybe a few fans). 

For those of you that have never worked for a manufacturer and seen what parts actually cost, it would stun you to know how cheap parts are that go into a manufactured product. PRS even admitted this in a video a couple of years ago. So, get the best playing guitar you can for your budget and you'll have your $10,000.00 guitar.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Of course the cost for parts is less than what the consumer pays. To run a business that does not make a profit intentionally is stupid. The ***whole*** point of a business is to make profit. 

You really think we dont know that markups exist and that what the guitar cost to make is not what we pay? We know. The thing these companies know is how to put value into their instruments. They know how to respond to their customers, how to keep great customer service, and how to improve their product and perceived image.

If you want companies to charge the same as what it costs them to make, we wont have a single company left.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

you see, it's a shame, really, that you folks don't have these up there. these are one of those things you'll find in a bowl on the coffee table this time of year around here. sometimes they get used among other things, to decorate gingerbread houses. the chocolate inside them is a unique flavor and texture. the candy on the outside melts away after a while and becomes paper thin if you don't bite it for a while.


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## pat6969 (Feb 4, 2013)

Budda said:


> Of course the cost for parts is less than what the consumer pays. To run a business that does not make a profit intentionally is stupid. The ***whole*** point of a business is to make profit.
> 
> You really think we dont know that markups exist and that what the guitar cost to make is not what we pay? We know. The thing these companies know is how to put value into their instruments. They know how to respond to their customers, how to keep great customer service, and how to improve their product and perceived image.
> 
> If you want companies to charge the same as what it costs them to make, we wont have a single company left.


I don't think he's saying they should sell them for cost. What he's saying is you'd be amazed what the parts of your 5K Gibson or PRS actually cost the manufacturer. What makes it worth 5K plus? He's saying it's not the materials.


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## pat6969 (Feb 4, 2013)

Jimi D said:


> "same basic materials"...? I suppose if you say all the parts started out as trees and minerals in the ground, you'd be right...
> 
> But no, you're right... a production line instrument fresh out of a second rate Korean factory (ftr, the Peerless factory, where Reverend, PRS and Duesenberg guitars are made is a first rate Korean factory), will surely have a neck that is nicer than one crafted from hand selected woods, fretted to order, and finished with hours of hand work and a full Plek-finishing and setup... oh, and monkey's will probably fly out of my butt any minute now...
> 
> I'm done here; it's nice you like what you like, but pretending you're driving a Ferrari while shouting "vroom! vroom!" in your Hyundai doesn't fool anyone...


I agree with you somewhat but I also think you're paying huge dollars for a name. I just picked up a custom shop Washburn WI580 Idol, build in the Chicago Washburn Custom Shop, absolute killer guitar that plays and sounds every bit as good as the Gibson LP Custom I had. Why was this Washburn 1/3 the price? Parts and build quality are equal to that LP so I'm sure most of that extra cost is because it says Gibson.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

Also, some people reply without even really reading the thread. These Cort Hiram Bullocks are very rare and they didn't make a lot of them. They are true Custom Shop quality, made by real craftsmen using the best parts available.

I was kind of keeping my eye open for one for years before this one showed up.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

pat6969 said:


> I don't think he's saying they should sell them for cost. What he's saying is you'd be amazed what the parts of your 5K Gibson or PRS actually cost the manufacturer. What makes it worth 5K plus? He's saying it's not the materials.


And I'm saying "no shit!". I know that the parts themselves don't cost as much as I paid. Why would 1 man or woman building 1 guitar at a time cost $10K then?

Hint: it's *also* partially due to paying skilled craftsmen for their time. It's also a part of the expected quality (and prestige) that comes with the name of the headstock. There's other factors too like overhead and PR costs and web maintenance and design etc etc etc.

*We know the guitar parts aren't super expensive.*

PRS wasn't always production. Gibson wasn't always crap. There's a reason their custom shops are $10k and our pal Ayr Guitars sells his wares for $1600.


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## StratCat (Dec 30, 2013)

Budda said:


> That's probably in part because a $1000 guitar in 2004 is the same specs and quality as a $600 guitar today. Seymour Duncans, Dimarzios and EMG's used to be a sign of a higher tier production guitar - now they come in near-base model instruments. Same thing with amps - $800 amps in 2010 sound like the $300 amps now (boss Katana and Fender Mustang anyone?).
> 
> I really don't care what someone paid for their instrument, or what type of instrument it is. How good of a player are they?
> 
> I own mid-high end gear because it makes me want to play better, it's reliable, and it gives me the satisfaction I want from making music. If I could get all that with 5 boss pedals and two epiphone LP standards I'd still be near broke .



I think you nailed it. Unless you are a collector/investor, It's not about what you own. It's about what you do with what you own.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Budda said:


> Of course the cost for parts is less than what the consumer pays. To run a business that does not make a profit intentionally is stupid. The ***whole*** point of a business is to make profit.
> 
> You really think we dont know that markups exist and that what the guitar cost to make is not what we pay? We know. The thing these companies know is how to put value into their instruments. They know how to respond to their customers, how to keep great customer service, and how to improve their product and perceived image.
> 
> If you want companies to charge the same as what it costs them to make, we wont have a single company left.


Yes, Budda, people know there is profit built into the guitar. The term "markup" is not even used in manufacturing. That's a retail/wholesale term. Margin of profit is what is used in manufacturing as that is the true figure of profit. Markup percentages doesn't give you the true profit margin. And while people know there is profit built into guitars (and other things) the point I was making is few know how little it costs to manufacture guitars or other things. For example, a bridge that you pay $70.00 for at L & M, what do you think an OEM pays for that?


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## Destropiate (Jan 17, 2007)

During the winter months the guitar I play most is my Squier Mustang. I live in a house with mostly wood stoves for heat. It's hard to maintain a consistent level of humidity so I tend to leave my Gibson in its humidified case until I'm done getting the place warmed up and back up to a reasonable level on the hygrometer. If I leave for a few hours the temp can shift quite a bit and I leave my humidifier on its lowest setting to save on energy so humidity dips too.
The mustang sits on a stand enduring all the ups and downs so it's the one I grab if I'm just sitting down to play for a few minutes here and there. It's been rock solid so far and I don't have to fret about it like I would for an expensive axe.

I still lust after expensive guitars. I've played Les Paul studios that sound and play as good as customs and vice versa but I love the look of a custom. If I ever had a spare 3 grand to spend and playability was equal, I'd grab a used Custom in a heartbeat just for the aesthetics.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Destropiate said:


> During the winter months the guitar I play most is my Squier Mustang. I live in a house with mostly wood stoves for heat. It's hard to maintain a consistent level of humidity so I tend to leave my Gibson in its humidified case until I'm done getting the place warmed up and back up to a reasonable level on the hygrometer. If I leave for a few hours the temp can shift quite a bit and I leave my humidifier on its lowest setting to save on energy so humidity dips too.
> The mustang sits on a stand enduring all the ups and downs so it's the one I grab if I'm just sitting down to play for a few minutes here and there. It's been rock solid so far and I don't have to fret about it like I would for an expensive axe.
> 
> I still lust after expensive guitars. I've played Les Paul studios that sound and play as good as customs and vice versa but I love the look of a custom. If I ever had a spare 3 grand to spend and playability was equal, I'd grab a used Custom in a heartbeat just for the aesthetics.


Just a side note about the humidity level. I heat with wood as well so I understand about the fluctuations. I've also been in the HVAC business for most of my life. The cost to run your humidifier for the year might be $15.00. It uses very little energy and if you can keep your humidity level closer to 45-50% you'll feel more comfortable even though the temperature might be a little lower in your home. So as a comfort level thing, it's better to leave the humidifier do its thing. It also won't have to fight to get the humidity level back up when you get home and turn it up. Just a thought for you I thought might help.


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

Destropiate said:


> During the winter months the guitar I play most is my Squier Mustang. I live in a house with mostly wood stoves for heat. It's hard to maintain a consistent level of humidity so I tend to leave my Gibson in its humidified case until I'm done getting the place warmed up and back up to a reasonable level on the hygrometer. If I leave for a few hours the temp can shift quite a bit and I leave my humidifier on its lowest setting to save on energy so humidity dips too.


We heat with wood too. I'm able to keep the house at about 30% humidity most of the winter and my guitars are fine. Usually in mid November when it starts to get cool and the house is less humid because of the stove I'll have to do a slight truss rod adjustment on mine. 

IMO, they actually play a bit better during the drier winter months.


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## Destropiate (Jan 17, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> Just a side note about the humidity level. I heat with wood as well so I understand about the fluctuations. I've also been in the HVAC business for most of my life. The cost to run your humidifier for the year might be $15.00. It uses very little energy and if you can keep your humidity level closer to 45-50% you'll feel more comfortable even though the temperature might be a little lower in your home. So as a comfort level thing, it's better to leave the humidifier do its thing. It also won't have to fight to get the humidity level back up when you get home and turn it up. Just a thought for you I thought might help.


Thanks for that info! I'll be a bit more generous with the humidifier in that case. I grew up in a family where a single light bulb left on was made to be a big thing so I figured my humidifier might be costing me more than under 20 bucks a year.


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## Destropiate (Jan 17, 2007)

cdntac said:


> We heat with wood too. I'm able to keep the house at about 30% humidity most of the winter and my guitars are fine. Usually in mid November when it starts to get cool and the house is less humid because of the stove I'll have to do a slight truss rod adjustment on mine.
> 
> IMO, they actually play a bit better during the drier winter months.



30% is pretty much what I can maintain in the winter too. My Gibson's documentation says that it should be higher but they probably aren't taking Canadian winter into account. I find that as long as I do a setup twice a year and don't let things go to extremes too fast my guitars have always been pretty stable. I still feel more comfortable taking the Mustang off the rack when it's going from cold to warm drastically in here and I get the guitar itch.


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

Destropiate said:


> 30% is pretty much what I can maintain in the winter too. My Gibson's documentation says that it should be higher but they probably aren't taking Canadian winter into account. I find that as long as I do a setup twice a year and don't let things go to extremes too fast my guitars have always been pretty stable. I still feel more comfortable taking the Mustang off the rack when it's going from cold to warm drastically in here and I get the guitar itch.


Well, it's gonna be one of the coldest nights so far this Dec, so I guess you know what you'll be playing tomorrow!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> For example, a bridge that you pay $70.00 for at L & M, what do you think an OEM pays for that?


I have no idea what the cost of metals are or how expensive machining is. Therefor I cant make a guess.


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## Destropiate (Jan 17, 2007)

cdntac said:


> Well, it's gonna be one of the coldest nights so far this Dec, so I guess you know what you'll be playing tomorrow!


Haha yeah, I'll be rocking the mustang til it warms up here next week. It's supposed to be 0 as a high here Monday. Hard to believe right now.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

Danelectro SH 12 string - Great guitar and price point.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I have a few inexpensive units that I enjoy a lot.

Squier '50s Tribute Strat










Squier Jazzmaster, I think that it's either a VM, or CV










Danelectro '59, MIK with Grovers


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Budda said:


> I have no idea what the cost of metals are or how expensive machining is. Therefor I cant make a guess.


Budda, and that is what the OEM's know, most of us don't have a clue. So, since we are kept in the dark, they can add as much profit to their product as the market will bear. If a $70.00 bridge cost more than $5.00 to make, I would be very, very surprised, likely more like $2.00-3.00. Before it gets to the retailer, it goes through at least a couple of hands so the profit margin is added on at least a couple of times and the price jumps accordingly. The OEM, however, buys in such large quantities that he buys direct from the manufacturer. That's why they can sell guitars so cheap. On the cheap guitars, they make their money on volume. As the price goes up, so does the margin of profit, in a very substantial way. The only way to stop this is for everyone to stop buying the over-priced product, but that won't happen. The marketing guys are too smart and most of us fall for their marketing/advertising schemes. After all, those marketing people and their companies don't make those big bucks for not delivering.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

sulphur said:


> I have a few inexpensive units that I enjoy a lot.
> 
> Danelectro '59, MIK with Grovers
> 
> View attachment 151041


I've always been taken by those Daneelctro's. What are the pickups like on it?


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

I couldn't care less what someone plays in regards to cost -- play what you can afford and enjoy what you play.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Humidity ?
A guy I know just keep water in a metal bowl on the stove.

My house is heated with electric heater. In my room studio, humidicases and a pot with a suspended sponge on which lies a sheet of absorbent paper I wet twice a day.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Most of my electrics fall into that cheap but superb category, purely personal and subjective though it may be. Godin LGs (one with P-90s, one with humbuckers), Godin Progression (under a grand used), Mexican Telecaster Thinline (under 6 bills, used), Squier Telecaster (dirt, I mean dirt cheap), Gretsch Electromatic (I forget but it was under 3 bills used). I am not displeased at all with my lot in guitars, or in life generally, but if I had the resources there would be names like Collings and Yanuziello in my life, and more Godins, shamelessly.

Completely different story when it comes to acoustics. I'm an utter, unrepentant, cork-sniffing snob. Feel free to hate me for it. ;-)


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> I've always been taken by those Daneelctro's. What are the pickups like on it?


They're quite good actually.

A thinner/chimey quality on their own (first and third on the three way switch), but combined there's almost a humbucker quality.
They sound pretty good driven too, as Page has proven,


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Alex said:


> Danelectro SH 12 string - Great guitar and price point.
> 
> View attachment 150921


Wow. I've never liked the look of the Danelectros......until now. That's a pretty sweet one. Same for @sulphur 's guitars. Maybe I'm just broadening my tastes.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

What we re talking about here is called the law of diminishing returns...meaning, at a certain point, the gains in quality or "x" decrease with every dollar spent. It applies to nearly everything made/bought, cars guitars, wine, computers, you name it. It doesn't mean that a $5000 guitar isn't better than a$1000 guitar. It just means that it won't be 5x better. But whether or not you can justify it depends on 2 factors...1) how much you can tell the difference 2) how deep your pockets are. It's very subjective. This week in the news here someone was killed in their $7m home. At first blush I thought, "wow that's an expensive home". When I found out their net worth was $4B, I actually thought "wow, they lived pretty cheaply".

For me, when it comes to guitars the quality per $ begins to slow down around the 1000-1500. point. I have guitars in the $700 range and one in the $5000 range, and about 7-8 in between. I enjoy them all and wouldn't turn my nose at any of them. That's why you rarely see me selling gear on this site. Fwiw, I enjoy my $1600 (with swapped pickups) good wood flamey LP Studio as much as my $5000 R8 historic makeover. My $1500 charvel San dimas is my other go-to.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

I said I didn't really think I would buy many after starting to get more comfortable building them and play the one I built mostly. Since then I have bought a Gibson melody maker lp and I bought a fender Sergio vallin model yesterday. They were each $400 bucks used (the fender $400 usd so a little more)


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

I'm a cheap Scotsman in heritage, so my #1 '79 LP Deluxe is the most expensive guitar I own. 700 bones back in 1985 used. I figure through the fret job and PUP changes, which were basically general maintenance for that many years, I got a pretty sweet bang for my buck. I see no diminishing returns on my initial investment originally or through the 30+ years I've been playing the same damn guitar. Got me through initial stages of learning, going to Grant MacEwan for my music diploma, and has followed me through 5 or 6 bands, teaching, etc. I can include my $300 1991 Seagull, $200 2007 A&L Q1, $120 LTD Bass and 15W Kustom Amp, and more recently purchased $230 Seagull full gloss 12 string in those categories. The only outlier is the $600 Squier CVC Tele that's about a year old and has a $160 PUP change involved. That won't be so much of an outlier (for me, anyways) when it gets older and has the mileage though. 

Cheap is good. Used is good.

But if I had the cash to spend on a much more expensive model, I certainly would as well. I instead chose to invest that time and money on building a career (or 2), getting married, and owning a house with an investment in a nice jam/practice/studio space in the basement. Something I was planning as a 14 or 15 year old with my buddy in the exact same basement.

It all about perception and context.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

And now I think I'll go play my cheap SX Tele that I paid $100.00 USD for.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

I should admit one thing. As much as I love my inexpensive guitars, I am selling a lot of my stuff and hope to score an original finish Junior. I will have around 5k in my fund.
Will it sound better than my eL Degas? Nah.... will it play better? Nah....so what the hell is wrong with me???


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Diablo said:


> What we re talking about here is called the law of diminishing returns...meaning, at a certain point, the gains in quality or "x" decrease with every dollar spent. It applies to nearly everything made/bought, cars guitars, wine, computers, you name it.


i think it's worth pointing out that the same law applies in ways other than money/quality. for example, if you have a muscle car, or even a rocket ship. to make it faster by a certain % you need to generate a certain amount more power. the faster you want to go, the power increase required is non-linear. the increase in power for your rocket to leave earth's atmosphere is nowhere near what you'd need to travel at half the speed of light. to go faster still the energy requirement increases on a really sharp curve until it's nearly infinite


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

capnjim said:


> I should admit one thing. As much as I love my inexpensive guitars, I am selling a lot of my stuff and hope to score an original finish Junior. I will have around 5k in my fund.
> Will it sound better than my eL Degas? Nah.... will it play better? Nah....so what the hell is wrong with me???


Because you want what you want --- and that doesn't make you a cork sniffer or an elitist (as some people may suggest to those who want a higher priced guitar). 

I'll readily admit I like Gibsons. Why? Prob because the guys I grew up watching, emulating and idlozing, played Gibsons. If I get judged for that --- and fwiw, I once was by someone I know -- it doesn't bother me at all.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> Just a side note about the humidity level. I heat with wood as well so I understand about the fluctuations. I've also been in the HVAC business for most of my life. The cost to run your humidifier for the year might be $15.00. It uses very little energy and if you can keep your humidity level closer to 45-50% you'll feel more comfortable even though the temperature might be a little lower in your home. So as a comfort level thing, it's better to leave the humidifier do its thing. It also won't have to fight to get the humidity level back up when you get home and turn it up. Just a thought for you I thought might help.


Acceptable humidity levels in a Canadian winter is 30% to 40% RH. At 50% you'd better have new windows, an HRV, a perfectly ventilated attic with a weather-stripped hatch, and proper weather door if you have a coldroom, properly sealed outlets and jacks, etc. etc. 30% is perfect, so get a case humidifier.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

I totally bought my LP because of my 2 main influences in music and guitar at the time....maybe 3 or more actually.

This would sort of be the order in the age I began to adore the LP and the players I wanted to emulate:
- Ace Frehley
- Jimmy Page
- Randy Rhoads
- John Sykes

Of course it expands greatly from that point, but you get the idea. If Leslie West and Mountain were a huge influence on me when I was much younger, then I'd probably have one of those as a firsty. Or Eddie Van Halen for that matter. As a cheapo guitar player myself, that is just what I can properly afford of course. No way am I going to disrespect a person playing an $8000 LP. I played a black LP Custom at L&M in 2015 that Lita Ford had happened to use for a show when in town. Would've bought it right on the spot if I had the scratch. Nicest guitar I've ever played.


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

capnjim said:


> I should admit one thing. As much as I love my inexpensive guitars, I am selling a lot of my stuff and hope to score an original finish Junior. I will have around 5k in my fund.
> Will it sound better than my eL Degas? Nah.... will it play better? Nah....so what the hell is wrong with me???


I just saw a '56 get listed on Kijiji --- it's somewhere in QB. Can't tell if it's the original finish.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

cheezyridr said:


> i think it's worth pointing out that the same law applies in ways other than money/quality. for example, if you have a muscle car, or even a rocket ship. to make it faster by a certain % you need to generate a certain amount more power. the faster you want to go, the power increase required is non-linear. the increase in power for your rocket to leave earth's atmosphere is nowhere near what you'd need to travel at half the speed of light. to go faster still the energy requirement increases on a really sharp curve until it's nearly infinite


Sure. Or amp volumes (ie a 100 watt is not 2x louder than a 50 watt). Probably loads of examples.


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## brokentoes (Jun 29, 2014)

It's not the price, it's the pleasure I have while enjoying the instrument that is my measuring stick. If i can afford a guitar i want then i'll buy it (usually used). I can enjoy my $200 guitars as much as my $2000 one so it's all good.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

adcandour said:


> Acceptable humidity levels in a Canadian winter is 30% to 40% RH. At 50% you'd better have new windows, an HRV, a perfectly ventilated attic with a weather-stripped hatch, and proper weather door if you have a coldroom, properly sealed outlets and jacks, etc. etc. 30% is perfect, so get a case humidifier.


30% is too low for me, my wife and my guitars. We have a newer home, no HRV and with the humidifier running we keep it around 40-45% with no problems. We vent all cooking to the outside, run the bathroom exhaust a lot and are in and out a lot which is likely the reason.

I have been in the HVAC/R business most of my life. Every home is different.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> 30% is too low for me, my wife and my guitars. We have a newer home, no HRV and with the humidifier running we keep it around 40-45% with no problems. We vent all cooking to the outside, run the bathroom exhaust a lot and are in and out a lot which is likely the reason.
> 
> I have been in the HVAC/R business most of my life. Every home is different.


Definitely. Every home is certainly different, and rarely properly ventilated. For example, if you didn't run the vents, you would probably have issues. A lot of people don't, so they get issues.

I'm actually an indoor air quality expert - the kind that provides expert testimony....so there.^)@#


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

cdntac said:


> I just saw a '56 get listed on Kijiji --- it's somewhere in QB. Can't tell if it's the original finish.


Found it.... Thanks for the tip.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

capnjim said:


> I should admit one thing. As much as I love my inexpensive guitars, I am selling a lot of my stuff and hope to score an original finish Junior. I will have around 5k in my fund.
> Will it sound better than my eL Degas? Nah.... will it play better? Nah....so what the hell is wrong with me???


You want a guitar that inspires you to the point you don't want to put it down. And that's what I (wrongly?) assume most guitar players want out of their guitars. That's why I bought my Artist 5 and my custom 22.


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

Price = Quality seems irrelevant these days. How about "I'm done with crappy guitars"?


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

adcandour said:


> Definitely. Every home is certainly different, and rarely properly ventilated. For example, if you didn't run the vents, you would probably have issues. A lot of people don't, so they get issues.
> 
> I'm actually an indoor air quality expert - the kind that provides expert testimony....so there.^)@#


I've always wanted to know, when you measure humidity, which floor are you measuring it on? It feels to me that there's differences on each floor.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Diablo said:


> I've always wanted to know, when you measure humidity, which floor are you measuring it on? It feels to me that there's differences on each floor.


When I worked for Servicemaster,part of my job was taking readings with a hygrometer in order to determine if a flood damaged house was dry enough to remove the drying equipment.
Usually took readings from several locations in the house,and there was difference from floor to floor.

My finished basement is almost always more damp than the main floor....until I fire up the woodstove.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm all about the inexpensive guitars (and gear) that play/sound great. Currently enjoying a Yamaha FG800 and a Casino Coupe.I'm about to bring an MIJ neckthrough back to life. I bought it for $50. Will put new guts in it and a pro set up and I suspect it will be super

Also went back to a Zoom G3 for amp modelling and love it. Took me a pile of things to realize that the gear I had was plenty enough to get lost in and that's what I'm in it for. Just to get 101% immersed in it and let life's stress melt away


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

It's fairly obvious just looking at threads on this small site that the variations of quality, experience, needs, affordability, tone, level of experience, professionalism...etc ad nauseum are as different to different types of players and different levels of expertise as the hair cut you have, or lack of hair in many cases haha. Always an interesting and sometimes provocative subject that has many ideas and ways of thinking.

No wonder guitar players are so F....ing anal sometimes. Myself certainly included.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

adcandour said:


> Definitely. Every home is certainly different, and rarely properly ventilated. For example, if you didn't run the vents, you would probably have issues. A lot of people don't, so they get issues.
> 
> I'm actually an indoor air quality expert - the kind that provides expert testimony....so there.^)@#


You've probably heard this joke before about an expert: X is an unknown factor and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure. So call yourself a professional in the future instead of an expert. Now, I think I've done enough hijacking of this thread.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Diablo said:


> I've always wanted to know, when you measure humidity, which floor are you measuring it on? It feels to me that there's differences on each floor.


The easy answer is everywhere. In the reports I have to review, the measurements are taken from every room.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Dorian2 said:


> It's fairly obvious just looking at threads on this small site that the variations of quality, experience, needs, affordability, tone, level of experience, professionalism...etc ad nauseum are as different to different types of players and different levels of expertise as the hair cut you have, or lack of hair in many cases haha. Always an interesting and sometimes provocative subject that has many ideas and ways of thinking.
> 
> No wonder guitar players are so F....ing anal sometimes. Myself certainly included.


as with all aspects of humanity, there are more differences within groups, than between them.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

BSTheTech said:


> Price = Quality seems irrelevant these days. How about "I'm done with crappy guitars"?


You get what you pay for!

I am very lucky that I was able to afford two really nice guitars. I would rather save my money up for something quality as opposed to something of shitty quality.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> as with all aspects of humanity, there are more differences within groups, than between them.


Very good point. A study done a few decades ago on people with different skin colour came up with this very same result.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

I’m quite disappointed that we’re 7 pages into this thread & no one has made a “CORT sniffer” joke yet.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Diablo said:


> I've gotten a lot better tangible ROI from owning some eventides than by paying the equivalent extra amount towards a guitar.


Yes, but the key part of that comment is the first word: "I've".

ROI is a personal thing. Some get great joy out of giggin' a $200 guitar, and that is a great thing. Some people are find huge value in owning one great guitar worth many thousands of dollars - and they don't even take it out and gig it. Who's wrong here? Just the people who want to inflict their own set of values on the rest of us (and there are always a few).

I don't know why I defend the 'expensive guitar buyers POV', because for the most part I am not one. Of the 15 guitars I currently own, only 3 of them went over about $1200. 

I get great joy in buying a hidden gem, like my Vantage VE450, for $350 and being able to (with a few tweaks and mods) rock it like my ES335. But I bought the 335 after the Vantage because it is just a better guitar in pretty much every respect (and no mods required at all). The 335 was about 8X the price of the Vantage, one of the 3 I paid >$1200 for, but it is not 8X better than the Vantage. On the other hand, there is nothing I could do to make a few of those little things as good as the Gibson, for any amount of money. It's in the DNA of the guitar and all the do-dads I screw into it aren't going to get me there, plain and simple.

The other problem is when I get a great score, like that Vantage, I value it as much as my more expensive guitars and I would feel horrible if it were nicked. It's one of those deals I'll probably never find again, so there's no easy replacing it, even at 3X what I paid for it. Even if you don't pay much for 'em, it don't make 'em cheap, necessarily. It's all about our own personal ROI. 

Diminishing returns is a real fact. But I don't criticize others for seeking that little bit of extra quality for lots of bucks, although I am not one of them. *In the electric guitar world. *


Acoustic guitars is a whole other thing, though. There is no upgrade path. If you want world class tone, you aren't going to get that for $200. Or even $2000. You just aren't (unless you are very lucky in the used market or inherit well). The sales tax on my best acoustic cost more than the all-in price of the last electric I bought. And it was worth every penny. Well, the price of the guitar was, the tax - not so much. 


Play what you love and love what you play. And let others do the same. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

None of my gear was all that expensive--never had a lot of money to spend--and then when it became just a hobby--and not a pursuit even if I have more money ti just doesn't seem worth it to pay huge prices...

Since I fixed it up this one is quite nice--even with the cost of modding it-
It would be tricky to replace because it isn't off the rack
I'd probably get more selling it for parts than as a whole guitar 
Hopefully it never comes to either...


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## numb41 (Jul 13, 2009)

So you don't own that 3 pickup Custom anymore?


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## SaucyJack (Mar 8, 2017)

I buy a lot of guitars from Japan. I can get good quality instruments for really good prices. It's hurting me now not to bid on a 1980 Aria Pro II LS-1960 currently sitting at about $100CDN. Gibson pups and ebony board is really tempting!


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

A friend of mine has some very expensive guitars but he bought them new back in the 60's.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Over the last 25 years I have owned everything from a $60 pawn shop Teisco made out of plywood up to a $6000 Les Paul. All kinds of top end Fenders and Gibson guitars. MIJ, MIM, MIK, MIC Vintage 60's and 70's. There are a few things I have learned through the whole process. 1) My playing skills are limited, always will be. Money won't change that. 2) Your guitar's tone depends greatly on what you play it through. 3) I have at times in my life had more money than brains. 4) I have lost a ton of money on guitars over the years buying new.

Of all of those guitars, and we are probably talking a few hundred, there are a few that stand out. One is obviously the Heritage Gary Moore that I have owned for close to 20 years (which is only 1 of 2 that I still own) A Hamer Newport NEW that was just awesome, a Fender Jeff Beck Signature and oddly enough a Epiphone Les Paul I purchased shortly after I started playing. The thing was a tone monster. The other odd rarity that was a fabulous guitar was a MBernard (Mason Bernard) AKA Bernie Rico who made a handful of guitars by hand that were absolute treasures. I had 2 of them at one point. Paid less than $350 each. Sold them for $800 or more and they were still a good buy at that price.

The bottom line is that if the guitar has a straight and true neck, the hardware is reasonable and it has a decent set of pickups in it the rest is your skill and the amp. That's my worthless opinion after 25 years of guitar insanity.

PS: Strings are a big part of it. Dirty and rusty strings are tone killers. Keep them clean and change them when necessary.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Small numbers compared to some, but I've owned well over 100 electrics & have been all over the map based on my finances at the time. I like guitars & have always tried to buy the best that I could afford.

I spent many years trying to "beat the man" by putting better pickups & electronics in Epiphones. Only 2 of them came close to their Gibson counterparts (a '56 GT LP RI that I didn't touch & a Korina Ex that I dropped BB #2-3 into), the majority didn't resonate, didn't play well etc. - the foundation was lousy & better pots or pickups will not fix that. When I sold/traded them, I took a bath.

When I was "in between wives" and didn't have anyone to waste money on shoes, purses or a second ticket to a concert that was too loud, my collection grew from 4 to 30. The exchange rate was favourable & the economy was in the crapper, so there were some great deals to be had on gently used gear if you had cash in hand (I've never borrowed money to buy gear & haven't bought new in 10 years).

At one point I had 8 Strats, 3 of them being maple/2TSB & 2 rosewood/Inca Silver, 6 Les Pauls, including 2 identical white Les Customs, you get the idea - - lots of duplication & way too much gear in a condo where I could never turn up anyways. Since the economy was in the crapper, rather than take sell at a loss, I decided to consolidate & would trade 2-3 decent mid-level guitars for one high end piece (i.e. CS, boutique or vintage). Reduced it from 30 down to a dozen or so, but then realized that I didn't have anything that I was comfortable taking to a jam - - I would put my Relic Tele in a gig bag & say that it was MIM to discourage anyone with fleet fingers.

Have since acquired a Hwy 1 Strat & MIM Baja Tele as my "take anywhere" guitars and they are great bang for the buck. The Baja has the same neck as a CS Ltd Edition Esquire that I stupidly traded to @Todd68 - - in fact he bought the Baja new & can vouch for how good it is.

One of my few regrets is selling the wrong Inca Silver Strat: a MIM Robert Cray partscaster (Cray neck on a Cray body that I scored a couple of years later) with MojoTone pickups. The other Inca Silver Strat (a Wildwood 10 59 Relic with Brazilian board) was better at the time I chose to keep the best instrument, cost was not a factor. They were pretty close, but the WW10 was better. After getting remarried, priorities changed & I sold the Wildwood. Now I'd rather have $4K & the Cray, but Alan won't sell it back to me!

IME the best lower end guitars with upgraded hardware & electronics can be equal to/better than a poor example of their higher end counterparts (thinking about a '97 Am Std Strat that pushed an Anderson out the door). But the best of the best are in a league of their own.

This being said, as others have stated, the law of diminishing return definitely applies & you need to find your personal sweet spot. I don't regret paying $6K for a Bloomfield Les Paul - - it was my 40th b-day present to me & is hands down the best Les Paul I've ever owned. But would I spend another $4K on a Historic Makeover? No. But YMMV. And I will gladly supply the scotch if you bring your HM or True Historic LP over for a play date.

Less judging & more jamming.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

the thing about diminishing returns that I brought up before, is its entirely subjective...my earlier example was the diminishing gap per $ spent on guitars (for me is) between $1500 and $5k. But I'm sure theres some that would say it also exists between guitars of $350 to $1000. while many of us would dismiss a $350 guitar, obviously many people think they are "good enough" otherwise noone would buy them. and I think thats a valid position.Often when I hear of novices talking about upgrading from one of these lower priced guitars, I'm not even sure their reasons for upgrading are very sound, and aren't reflecting issues with their own playing, or amp or effects. It often comes from "I don't think I sound like the guys I listen to on my itunes, so it must be the guitar". its (falsely) perceived as a relatively cheap/easy fix. rarely does it stop there. "i started playing 1 year a on a generic $450 guitar and I don't sound like Dimebag....I need to buy the Dean Dimebag Ultra Something-something....that should fix it!".
Ive been that guy. A lot of us are. The industry needs us to be. for a large portion of us, 1-2 guitars are all we need and they don't _need_ to be expensive.

That said, an instrument is something I appreciate for more than just the practically and I may be willing to pay more for than that if I have the disposable income.
I know guys with cars like Ferraris that rarely drive them...but they do go out to their garage regularly just to look at them. They'll even spend tens of thousands of $ to put all kinds of racing shit on them even though they'll never see a rainy day much less a racetrack. But they get a good feeling from that and appreciate it as a from of art. Guitars can be the same. Your wives probably feel the same about their jewelry. A $10K diamond ring doesn't do a damn thing more than a $700 one, and is a really shitty investment (ever try selling something to a jeweler? He'll start at 20 cents on the dollar for the exact same piece he sold you last year). But most women wont see it that way, it makes them feel good. remind her of that next time she gives you grief about your new guitar, hobby car/bike etc. So what do all these things have in common? They take you to another place...a fantasy that you are Dimebag, or Lewis Hamilton or Princess Kate etc...and that for some, is worth the price of admission.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Lewis? Shouldn't that be Seb or Kimi?


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

zontar said:


> Since I fixed it up this one is quite nice--even with the cost of modding it-
> It would be tricky to replace because it isn't off the rack
> I'd probably get more selling it for parts than as a whole guitar
> Hopefully it never comes to either...


That headstock inlay looks familiar,I've got one just like it .


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## johnnyshaka (Nov 2, 2014)

I've got "lesser" gear (although the Godin Core HB I have is definitely out of my league but was too good of a deal to pass on at the time!) but I'm under no illusions that getting better gear is going to make me sound any better...at this point I need better fingers to sound better and that's why I've been taking lessons instead of buying more gear. When I can make the gear I have now sound decent then I'll look into getting better gear...or sell it all and buy a drum kit!


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## losch79 (Jul 11, 2016)

I'm of two minds with gear, there is a place for both inexpensive and expensive gear. I have different guitars that I will take to certain places or in some cases not at all. I have 4 guitars that I would consider players grade that I bought specifically for metal shows when I was playing out in that scene. Mostly MIJ guitars that were fantastic bang for your buck guitars that I bought for under $600 where I didn't care about them getting banged up or forbid stolen at a show. Then I have another set of guitars that are nicer my MIA strats and Gibson V's that I would use when jamming at friends places or more mellow shows that didn't require the gain turned up to 11. Then I have another group of guitars that I just enjoy playing that I wouldn't use out since I wouldn't want to risk having them stolen or damaged at a show; I think I'd shed a tear if anything happened to a few of them. 

If you can find an inexpensive guitar that fits all of your needs than who cares what it says on the headstock. But for me, I generally get the most joy out of playing my more expensive guitars, they just seem to have that extra something. It's likely in my head with a few of the guitars but at the end of the day that's the only thing that matters to me.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I would like to give one of these a whirl. This one comes with a 1 3/4" neck through design, coil tapping, 3/4 maple cap, mother of pearl inlays and some other good quality items. It would run you about $700.00 CDN.

I couldn't see me needing anything more than this in an LP.

Agile AL-3200MCC CSBF Wide - RondoMusic.com


*Multi-radius *- 12" at the nut and 16" at the 22nd fret for vastly superior comfort

*Coil tapping* on both pickups for a wider range of sounds

*Graph Tech* NVS2 bridge with string saver saddles

*Wide Profile* neck for additional ease of play

3/4" *solid maple cap* improves overall sound quality (increases brightness of the guitar)

*Neck-through *design for improved sustain and playability

*Body and neck contour* for extra comfort and access to higher frets

*Graph Tech* NVS2 bridge with string saver saddles

Two Type V alnico humbucker pickups for that warm, traditional sound

Solid mahogany arch top body

Flame maple top

Bound body, neck, and headstock

Improved nickel plated hardware, including nickel die-cast Grover tuners with 18-1 turning ratio for ultra fine tuning (Model 102-18N)

Upgraded wiring, pots (high voltage with brass shafts for reduced noise), and pickup selector switch

Two volume controls, two tone controls, plus a three way pickup selector switch

*5 piece neck-through *(maple/walnut) neck and *dual action* adjustable truss rod

*Ebony fretboard* with 22 jumbo frets and *mother of pearl* trapezoid inlays

*D'addario* strings installed at the factory and a professionally installed *Graph Tech nut*

Individually *hand filed frets* for professional feel and playability


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

That's basically ibanez-ing an AL3100. Interesting choice. With my experience with Agile guitars I'd expect a good instrument.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

In some ways, this thread reminds me of the saying...

We get too quick old
...and too late smart.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

GuitarsCanada said:


> 3) I have at times in my life had more money than brains.


having read many of your posts over the years, it must have been a fuck-ton of cash...


as an aside, i have to say there is one thing that i can't figure out. my mind wants to believe that construction would play the biggest part of how good an electric guitar might sound. but i have had a few that were pretty amazing after being massaged. they were still made out of "lesser" quality wood, still had a scarf joint, and still wore 90% of the deck furniture poly finish. they didn't use special glue afaik. somehow, a small number out of the many i've owned were outliers. i don't know what made them so.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

cheezyridr said:


> as an aside, i have to say there is one thing that i can't figure out. my mind wants to believe that construction would play the biggest part of how good an electric guitar might sound. but i have had a few that were pretty amazing after being massaged. they were still made out of "lesser" quality wood, still had a scarf joint, and still wore 90% of the deck furniture poly finish. they didn't use special glue afaik. somehow, a small number out of the many i've owned were outliers. i don't know what made them so.


I usually suspect highly resonant wood when a guitar just has that extra something. There's a lot of guesswork in choosing the best possible woods for an instrument, and I think I may have read somewhere that you don't really know how it's going to turn out until it's done. You may have hand-selected the choicest woods and metals and pickups, but if the culmination is still somehow a dead plank... who's gonna want to play it? Every once in a while, a guitar is more than the sum of its parts.


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## pat6969 (Feb 4, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> I would like to give one of these a whirl. This one comes with a 1 3/4" neck through design, coil tapping, 3/4 maple cap, mother of pearl inlays and some other good quality items. It would run you about $700.00 CDN.
> 
> I couldn't see me needing anything more than this in an LP.
> 
> ...


Check this one out. It's a beauty!

Agile 3010 Single Cutaway with Bare Knuckle Peter Green PG Blues PAFs with Upgrades & Hard Shell Case


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

pat6969 said:


> Check this one out. It's a beauty!
> 
> Agile 3010 Single Cutaway with Bare Knuckle Peter Green PG Blues PAFs with Upgrades & Hard Shell Case


Man, that's blue! Blue is for the sky, not a guitar.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

Budda said:


> Every once in a while, a guitar is more than the sum of its parts.


That's exactly my point in starting this thread. My Cort and degas are just great guitars. Who knows why? 
I can only really think of one "bad" guitar, I had a Les Paul Classic a few years ago and I just couldn't get it to play well, yet all the specs were good, frets were level, it just always felt weird.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

capnjim said:


> That's exactly my point in starting this thread. My Cort and degas are just great guitars. Who knows why?
> I can only really think of one "bad" guitar, I had a Les Paul Classic a few years ago and I just couldn't get it to play well, yet all the specs were good, frets were level, it just always felt weird.


I think the main thing being discussed in this thread is that higher end guitars are generally very consistent at being withing reach of "mojo" status while it's far more hit and miss for lower tier production instruments.


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## pat6969 (Feb 4, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> Man, that's blue! Blue is for the sky, not a guitar.


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## bigboki (Apr 16, 2015)

pat6969 said:


> Check this one out. It's a beauty!
> 
> Agile 3010 Single Cutaway with Bare Knuckle Peter Green PG Blues PAFs with Upgrades & Hard Shell Case


yeah great colour!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

pat6969 said:


> Check this one out. It's a beauty!
> 
> Agile 3010 Single Cutaway with Bare Knuckle Peter Green PG Blues PAFs with Upgrades & Hard Shell Case


It is a nice guitar with a beautiful top. The seller is out to lunch on the price, though, GC has these all the time in great condition for $250.00-400.00. Reverb prices always seem high to me.


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## pat6969 (Feb 4, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> It is a nice guitar with a beautiful top. The seller is out to lunch on the price, though, GC has these all the time in great condition for $250.00-400.00. Reverb prices always seem high to me.


I think once you consider exchange, tax, shipping, customs, a fret level, hard case and new pickups he's not so bad. Maybe a bit high, I'd pay $600-$700 if I was in the market.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

pat6969 said:


> I think once you consider exchange, tax, shipping, customs, a fret level, hard case and new pickups he's not so bad. Maybe a bit high, I'd pay $600-$700 if I was in the market.


It's only a 3100. The one I quoted was a 3200, a little higher quality guitar and it was neck through. These models already have hand filed frets, there is no customs and the pickups that come with it are high quality. The price for the 3200 is $760.00 with shipping and that's for a new one. His is used.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

Budda said:


> while it's far more hit and miss for lower tier production instruments.


I guess that's why I go through hundreds of guitars for every one I keep.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Bubb said:


> That headstock inlay looks familiar,I've got one just like it .


You'll see it on various guitars that came out of the Matsumoku factory (factories?)
Including Arias...

Mine was branded Granada


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## annuvin (Mar 24, 2017)

I currently own three guitars: a 2006 MIM standard telecaster, a 2016 Gibson Les Paul Studio and a Seagull Coastline acoustic, all of which were purchased new. Of the three, the Gibson is the one I play most. It has an awesome tone and just feels "right" in my hands. I paid around $1000 for it last February and wouldn't exactly call it cheap (maybe cheap for a Gibson). The biggest drawback to cheaper guitars I have found is that the fit and finish isn't quite up to snuff (they often need fretwork), the pickups aren't as articulate as a mid or high priced model, and the action or "feel" of the guitar may be somewhat lacking. That being said, there are some very nice guitars to be had for under $500. However, a guitar (much like anything else) needs to be evaluated on an individual basis. Many of the really nice expensive guitars cost what they do not because of "hype", but because of upgraded electronics, lower actions, better fretwork, high grade finishes and a close attention to detail. Does this mean that one can not compare a sub-$500 instrument to one costing in excess of $1000? No. However, I'd be willing to bet that more times than not, the instrument costing $1000 or more is going to be of a higher quality than one costing half its price.


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## pat6969 (Feb 4, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> It's only a 3100. The one I quoted was a 3200, a little higher quality guitar and it was neck through. These models already have hand filed frets, there is not customs and the pickups that come with it are high quality. The price for the 3200 is $760.00 with shipping and that's for a new one. His is used.


Forgot he was in Canada. Guess he's high.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

zontar said:


> You'll see it on various guitars that came out of the Matsumoku factory (factories?)
> Including Arias...
> 
> Mine was branded Granada


Mine is Cutler,I bought it new ,'78/'79.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

pat6969 said:


> Forgot he was in Canada. Guess he's high.


Maybe a little,but that's just his asking price.
Those pick-ups alone are over $400CAN new


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Bubb said:


> Maybe a little,but that's just his asking price.
> Those pick-ups alone are over $400CAN new


Then he should take them out and sell them seperately. It doesnt work the wqy we would like where you factor in all the mods and the guitar and price according to that. Its priced according to the guitar, which usually means getting upgrades for dimes on the dollar.

Guy should sell the guitar for $400 and the pickups for $300.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

cheezyridr said:


> having read many of your posts over the years, it must have been a fuck-ton of cash...
> 
> 
> as an aside, i have to say there is one thing that i can't figure out. my mind wants to believe that construction would play the biggest part of how good an electric guitar might sound. but i have had a few that were pretty amazing after being massaged. they were still made out of "lesser" quality wood, still had a scarf joint, and still wore 90% of the deck furniture poly finish. they didn't use special glue afaik. somehow, a small number out of the many i've owned were outliers. i don't know what made them so.


The woods and neckjoint can be debated forever most likely. But the basics of any electric guitar are taking the sound produced by the strings and sending it to amplification via the pickups. The "signal" to that amp should be as clean as possible and that's where pickups and the wiring etc come in. Step one of that though is making sure that the strings ring clean. A straight neck, hardware that does not dampen or distort the sound. No dead spots anywhere on the neck, good nut and tailpiece. Pick-ups are all different and can change that tone big time. I have had good luck with Seymour Duncan products over the years, also Dimarzio. For active, EMG products have always served me well. The 81/85 set is hard to beat. Fender noiseless are also great. If you have all that and send that signal to a "clean" amp setting let your ears do the evaluations. I have found over the years that strings are key to the whole process. Gauge, material and quality. All of that takes us to "my guitar does not sound like Slashes etc etc". You may have the exact model guitar but there are TONS of things that happen after that. I have found that most "decent" guitars will give you these things out of the box. Usually in the $600 and up range. The guitars that I have cobbled together over the years using the best components I could afford, necks and bodies etc have played as well as any guitar I have owned. Giving you all the basics mentioned above.

If I still had cash to blow? Ya I would prolly own a PRS Artist because as others have mentioned I do appreciate the beauty of guitars and the craftsmanship in some of them. But you can get the basic needs for way less if you need to.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Budda said:


> Then he should take them out and sell them seperately. It doesnt work the wqy we would like where you factor in all the mods and the guitar and price according to that. Its priced according to the guitar, which usually means getting upgrades for dimes on the dollar.
> 
> Guy should sell the guitar for $400 and the pickups for $300.


No argument here,that's how I would do it .


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Budda said:


> Then he should take them out and sell them seperately. It doesnt work the wqy we would like where you factor in all the mods and the guitar and price according to that. Its priced according to the guitar, which usually means getting upgrades for dimes on the dollar.
> 
> Guy should sell the guitar for $400 and the pickups for $300.


Agreed. Some people think that everyone will like their "upgrades" as well as they do and will pay for them.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Thing is,he's limiting his marketplace to buyers that want an Agile with those particular pick-ups.
There would be far more people interested in those pick-ups without a guitar attached to them.
Likewise that guitar would sell quicker if it was stock and priced accordingly .


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

1984 Westone Concord S from the Matsumoku family
My daily player getting a string change and a scrub. Paid less than $200 about 1-1/2 years ago and it was essentially unplayed when I found it.
Stock pickups are a bit weak esp when coil split but I love the trebly snap and jangle from this guitar.


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

I think as we move into the modern age of guitar building, the discrepancies between cheap and expensive, country of origin and all of those types of factors will become less and less important in the overall value of an instrument.

In the 60’s, Fender and Gibson and the other US brands were the instruments to have; the Japanese instruments of that era tend to range from “okay” to “unplayable”. Fast forward to the 70’s and on, and Japanese instruments are world class.

You can see it happening in a lot of demographics too; look at MIM fenders, most of the newer ones I have played are wonderful guitars, versus some of the 90’s one I have played were lacking; some were great.

I owned a Korean Cort from 1986, and that guitar was literally firewood; it had a plywood fingerboard. I’ve also owned 3 other Korea Corts from the early 2000’s and they’ve been amazing gigging instruments.

Now look at China, Chinese made squiers in the mid 90’s were hit and miss; I’ve played some great ones, but there were a lot of generic ones that lacked magic. Then today, look at the classic vibes, the vintage modifieds. Look at instruments from other companies like Epiphone that are perfectly valid instruments for any price point.

I guess the point I’m trying to make is this: No region has started off making perfect instruments for low prices, but after these places have 20+ years experience in pumping out crazy amounts of guitars, they tend to get pretty good at it. The old adage “practice makes perfect” comes to mind. I think we’ll continue to see lower prices, but decent quality for the outlay.


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## pat6969 (Feb 4, 2013)

I think the time is here, the Asian companies have luthiers as good or better than American luthiers, plus they'll work for 1/3 the price. Look at ESP, top shelf guitars that rival anything on the market.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Ronbeast said:


> The old adage “practice makes perfect” comes to mind.


there is a second part to that, which everyone universally skips. it is the most important part of the whole line"

practice makes perfect _when we practice to be perfect_


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> there is a second part to that, which everyone universally skips. it is the most important part of the whole line"
> 
> practice makes perfect _when we practice to be perfect_


I had never heard that part before. Thanks for that.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

I never heard that part neither. Too true.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2017)

'_We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit._'
Aristotle


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Bubb said:


> Mine is Cutler,I bought it new ,'78/'79.


Pretty sure that it's Matsumoku made as well...


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

zontar said:


> Pretty sure that it's Matsumoku made as well...


Yeah it is,a buddy bought a Cutler P-bass copy around the same time from the same shop.
Matsumoku is printed on the neck plate.
He still has it too.


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## Rick Hubka (Jan 9, 2014)

I picked this up for $25.00 just 2 months ago. Cleaned up the fret board. Filed and polished the frets. New strings, Did the intonation, etc... I love it!!!
I can't find too much on the Apollo guitar name. Seems to be a 60's China Guitar???


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

pat6969 said:


> I think the time is here, the Asian companies have luthiers as good or better than American luthiers, plus they'll work for 1/3 the price. Look at ESP, top shelf guitars that rival anything on the market.


ESP aren't exactly cheap either though (*some of the LTD line aside) so I would expect them to be good.
The Korean LTDs are made at World Musical Instruments factory which private labels cheap guitars for many companies. Other LTDs are made in China, vietnam etc so id be hesitant to generalize on their quality when in theory it could be made anywhere by anyone/anything.
ESP's custom shop pricing isn't really all that different from Gibsons.
for example: ESP KH-2 Vintage Custom Shop Kirk Hammett Signature 2006 Black Distressed
Better or worse? coin toss IMO. But If I was looking for a great shredder I'd be buying a Suhr, not an ESP unless I was a fanboy of an endorsed artist.


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## pat6969 (Feb 4, 2013)

Diablo said:


> ESP aren't exactly cheap either though (*some of the LTD line aside) so I would expect them to be good.
> The Korean LTDs are made at World Musical Instruments factory which private labels cheap guitars for many companies. Other LTDs are made in China, vietnam etc so id be hesitant to generalize on their quality when in theory it could be made anywhere by anyone/anything.
> ESP's custom shop pricing isn't really all that different from Gibsons.
> for example: ESP KH-2 Vintage Custom Shop Kirk Hammett Signature 2006 Black Distressed
> Better or worse? coin toss IMO. But If I was looking for a great shredder I'd be buying a Suhr, not an ESP unless I was a fanboy of an endorsed artist.


I was making more of a comparison to the Standard versions. An LP Standard at roughly $3300 compared to an Eclipse Standard at about $2300 is quite a difference for guitars I consider on par with each other quality wise. As for the WMI built guitars, I'd personally put them up against any Gibson Studio or USA Fender Special made today. All I'm saying is the stigma of USA guitars being better doesn't always apply as I feel* some* Asian manufacturers I making stellar guitars.

I played a couple Suhr's, very nice guitars, I just couldn't get over the hideous headstock (the new Thornley headstock is nice). Suhr pricing is pretty much Custom Shop level though, so it's hard to compare any retail offshore offerings to those, other than Custom Shop guitars.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I personally think a LP Trad ($2700) is a fairer comparison to an Eclipse, so we may be splitting hairs.
And Suhrs can be had easily for $2800., not "custom shop pricing".
but to each their own.
I'm not knocking ESP's...Ive owned a couple and they are great guitars. I just don't see them as the bargain as you do. IMO, about on par with the rest of the market.
Maybe I'm taking for granted that most people know that modern production quality has little to do with country of manufacture...Asians will make whatever you want at whatever price point you tell them to, and adjust quality similarly. There no magic there, its simple economics and math. Everyone has access to the same CNC machines, CAD software etc. The bigger concerns I have with Asian production is mostly with ethics (a lack of respect for intellectual property and use of illegitimate components).


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## pat6969 (Feb 4, 2013)

Diablo said:


> I personally think a LP Trad ($2700) is a fairer comparison to an Eclipse, so we may be splitting hairs.
> And Suhrs can be had easily for $2800., not "custom shop pricing".
> but to each their own.
> I'm not knocking ESP's...Ive owned a couple and they are great guitars. I just don't see them as the bargain as you do. IMO, about on par with the rest of the market.


I disagree, I'd say the Standard is more of a comparison to the Eclipse since they are both pretty much the top end retail offerings so we'll disagree there. I also know the "Classic" Suhr's can be had for that price but I don't really consider them "shredder" guitars. The Suhr Modern is closer to that title which is nowhere near that price. Again, my point is you can get an equivalent offshore guitar for less than a USA model that is just as good if not better. I know this will upset the "cork sniffers" but it's simply reality. I like myself a good old USA made guitar as much as anyone, but it is what it is. The new PRS SE line plays and sounds as good as any USA Strat I've tried in the last 10 years and is half the price.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

pat6969 said:


> I disagree, I'd say the Standard is more of a comparison to the Eclipse since they are both pretty much the top end retail offerings so we'll disagree there. I also know the "Classic" Suhr's can be had for that price but I don't really consider them "shredder" guitars. The Suhr Modern is closer to that title which is nowhere near that price. Again, my point is you can get an equivalent offshore guitar for less than a USA model that is just as good if not better. I know this will upset the "cork sniffers" but it's simply reality. I like myself a good old USA made guitar as much as anyone, but it is what it is. The new PRS SE line plays and sounds as good as any USA Strat I've tried in the last 10 years and is half the price.


I think you do a lovely job at playing with your criteria to suit your argument.
"I consider this.... I consider that...." 
Ive said all I need to say on the topic already.
Play what you like.


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## pat6969 (Feb 4, 2013)

Diablo said:


> I think you do a lovely job at playing with your criteria to suit your argument.
> "I consider this.... I consider that...."
> Ive said all I need to say on the topic already.
> Play what you like.


I will and always have played what I like so no worries there. You started the debate with me so don't get frustrated when people don't agree with the way you see things. Like I said, I know it upsets USA cork sniffers and that's unfortunate, good guitars are good guitars no matter where they were made.HNG^%$


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

pat6969 said:


> I will and always have played what I like so no worries there. You started the debate with me so don't get frustrated when people don't agree with the way you see things. Like I said, I know it upsets USA cork sniffers and that's unfortunate, good guitars are good guitars no matter where they were made.HNG^%$


No frustration here, man...just an open discussion with some dude whos calling others "cork-sniffers" while preaching for a company that sells shredders for $2500. - $5k.









But, since 'tis the season...from me, to you


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## pat6969 (Feb 4, 2013)

Diablo said:


> No frustration here, man...just an open discussion with some dude whos calling others "cork-sniffers" while preaching for a company that sells shredders for $2500. - $5k.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cork sniffer is a general term. It's not meant to single out anyone in particular. I consider myself a closet cork sniffer.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

It took me 3 days to go through and read this thread.

I don't have anything to add, just figured I'd let you know.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

I'm sorry I started it. I should have known it would not go well.
But merry Christmas and happy whatever Pagan rituals you may otherwise be celebrating.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

when I go to the shops I only play the uber expensive guitars, which makes me better than all you plebs


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## pat6969 (Feb 4, 2013)

Threads like this are OK. Everyone has their opinion and has the right to express it. Let's keep rolling!HNG^%$


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

No mention of heritage in all this gibson/esp stuff. Their standard singlecut is $2799 and top tier.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

What about Collings? Expensive and great guitars to boot.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Budda said:


> No mention of heritage in all this gibson/esp stuff. Their standard singlecut is $2799 and top tier.


And an absolute bargain on the used market. FWIW I had a tobacco burst H-555 that made the rounds on here that is arguably the best ES-style guitar I’ve owned. Unfortunately despite ~10 attempts was never able to get used to the larger body.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

vadsy said:


> What about Collings? Expensive and great guitars to boot.


Some absolutely stunning CLs have popped up here & at Folkway in Guelph. I prefer those visuals to the usually blingier offerings from PRS. If I didn’t have the Bloomfield, a Collings would definitely be on my short list.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Roryfan said:


> And an absolute bargain on the used market. FWIW I had a tobacco burst H-555 that made the rounds on here that is arguably the best ES-style guitar I’ve owned. Unfortunately despite ~10 attempts was never able to get used to the larger body.


We have a heritage dealer in town, 5m from work. I dont go on purpose haha. My coworker recommended trying to get an artist deal with them but I am set for the moment.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Roryfan said:


> Some absolutely stunning CLs have popped up here & at Folkway in Guelph. I prefer those visuals to the usually blingier offerings from PRS. If I didn’t have the Bloomfield, a Collings would definitely be on my short list.


I take it you are talking electric guitar. I just looked up Collings and didn't realize they made electric guitars. I know they are very well respected for their acoustics. Now I'll have to go look at their electric offerings.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> I take it you are talking electric guitar. I just looked up Collings and didn't realize they made electric guitars. I know they are very well respected for their acoustics. Now I'll have to go look at their electric offerings.


They're not cheap, but everyone that owns one seems to rave about them.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

sulphur said:


> They're not cheap, but everyone that owns one seems to rave about them.


I can believe that. Over on The Acoustic Guitar Forum, people rave about them.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

sulphur said:


> They're not cheap, but everyone that owns one seems to rave about them.


theyre great because theyre expensive


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## SaucyJack (Mar 8, 2017)

I just picked up a couple of MIJ strats for about $500. I expect they'll be great players with a few minor upgrades.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Yeah, if you drop a shit ton on a higher than high ass gitar then you’d better be raving otherwise you just pissed it down a hole.

As for the AGF, well they’re always raving about one thing or another.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

vadsy said:


> theyre great because theyre expensive


Don't say stuff like that or people will call you stupid.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

capnjim said:


> Don't say stuff like that or people will call you stupid.


no, because the avatar makes it totally work


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

capnjim said:


> Don't say stuff like that or people will call you stupid.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

pat6969 said:


> Check this one out. It's a beauty!
> 
> Agile 3010 Single Cutaway with Bare Knuckle Peter Green PG Blues PAFs with Upgrades & Hard Shell Case


Love the colour, and I usually don't care for blue. Agreed with others, he should part out the Pg's and put the stock pups back in. I'd be interested in it in that respect. I hear great things about Agiles and I'm all about the bang for the buck.


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## Avro Arrow (Dec 31, 2017)

Believe it or not, Costco's GWL Electric Guitar Pack is an incredible bargain. The guitar itself is light-weight, plays decently out of the box but plays really well after a pro setup and new DD strings. It comes with a 10W amp, stand, gig bag, strap, picks, extra strings, digital tuner, cable, string winder and a tremolo bar for $164CAD. I don't know how they do it for the price. The guitar's body is Poplar, the neck is Maple and the fretboard is Rosewood. It's just ridiculous how good a deal that is, especially for a beginner.
https://www.costco.ca/GWL-Electric-Guitar-Pack.product.100376139.html


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## dodgechargerfan (Mar 22, 2006)

dodgechargerfan said:


> I’d say the one I miss the most is the Vantage I had years ago. Bought it for around $100.
> Sold it for $90 a few years later.


Annnndddd... I’m going to pick up a Vantage on Monday.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

I'm 70 and it took me a very long time to learn my lesson about expensive guitars. Folks will argue about this endlessly but one thing that just can't be debated is the fact that , other than status and bragging rights, what we all really want from a guitar is great looks, playability and tone. About 10 years ago I began modding inexpensive Strats and Teles with great results for relatively small bucks. With that in mind I treated myself to this $225 Korean made Agile and a set of Seymour Duncan "59" pickups. This guitar shows very good build quality and can be set up to play as well as any guitar I've ever owned with the only down side being the ceramic pickups. So to make a long story short I also own a Gibson LP and a Gibson ES 137 Custom that cost me more than I like to talk about and although I'm certainly not about to take the loss selling them after my experience with this (all in for $366) guitar I see no reason to ever buy another Gibson.

IMG_1115 by Don Wiklund, on Flickr


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## keefsdad (Feb 7, 2006)

Each to his own. I think like a lot of things at a certain price point the law of diminishing returns sets in. Is a $10000 dollar guitar five times better than a $2000 one? Probably not.
I bought my epiphone SG400 for $100 bucks because it had been abused, had chunks out of the finish, somebody bashed the plug when it was plugged in and splintered the wood, and tried to shield it with kitchen foil. I fixed it up and now it plays and sounds great. Is it as good as most Gibsons? I doubt it, but from what I hear about their quality control, it's probably as good as some of them.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

There's that word "setup" again. Yes, cheaper guitars can be set up very well. That doesn't make the materials higher quality with tighter tolerances though. 

I wonder what your thoughts would be if you had the AL first and then bought the Gibson .


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## Avro Arrow (Dec 31, 2017)

Budda said:


> There's that word "setup" again. Yes, cheaper guitars can be set up very well. That doesn't make the materials higher quality with tighter tolerances though.
> 
> I wonder what your thoughts would be if you had the AL first and then bought the Gibson .


I agree with this. My Washburn Strat was given a pro setup but it still can't compare to my Solidac and I don't think that it ever could. Make no mistake, it was (and still is) an incredible deal but it's definitely not what I would call "good". It's fine for a beginner or for practice but I can feel the difference immediately when I strap on my Solidac.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

As a tool used to make music I agree that a low cost guitar can work just as well as an expensive one. That said, playing a well crafted guitar that is a work of art is a different experience than playing a well made guitar that came from an assembly line. This is especially noticeable with acoustic guitars. Most of my guitars are of the well made inexpensive variety. They are very enjoyable to play and sound great when someone else is playing them but if I had unlimited funds I would have better guitars.


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## dodgechargerfan (Mar 22, 2006)

As I read through this thread again, I keep flashing back to a conversation I had with David Gogo earlier this year.
He was in the middle of an acoustic mini-tour, but had one show here in St Catharines with a full band.
He hadn’t brought any of his electrics with him. So, he went to rent a guitar at L&M. 
He had his pick of everything they had. Spent time playing through the bunch, and came out with a Black Epiphone SG.
The gig was amazing. The guitar sounded great. 

I had said to him that sometimes the best guitar on the rack is not the most expensive one and even if there are a handful of pricey guitars, there might be only one gem. He said, “That’s exactly why I have this Epiphone here tonight.”


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Budda said:


> There's that word "setup" again. Yes, cheaper guitars can be set up very well. That doesn't make the materials higher quality with tighter tolerances though.
> 
> I wonder what your thoughts would be if you had the AL first and then bought the Gibson .


I'm not sure what you mean by higher tolerances. It seems to me that if a guitar has the correct scale length, the frets are seated properly, the truss rod and hardware do their job well and the finish is without flaws then that guitar is within the specs I'm looking for. I've got four Teles and three Strats that are MIA, MIM, MIK and MII. They range in price from $350 to around $1500 and they all have pretty much the same tolerances. Fact is (other than pick ups) I can't find a lick of difference in build quality between the bunch of them. Don't get me wrong I'm no Gibson basher. Other than the fact that they cost about three times what they're worth I like my Gibsons a whole lot


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Budda said:


> There's that word "setup" again. Yes, cheaper guitars can be set up very well. That doesn't make the materials higher quality with* tighter tolerances though. *
> 
> I wonder what your thoughts would be if you had the AL first and then bought the Gibson .


Most guitars and many parts are built on CNC machines. Tolerance is not an issue with them. After all we are not talking rocket science. In most cases you are only talking about the difference in materials and sometimes there is not a lot of difference in them. We've already discussed how cheap the parts are for manufacturers.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Tighter tolerances isnt just measurements, it is the grade of materials. A MIC guitar does not have the same quality of woods as a warmoth. It is not just fit and finish.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Most guitars and many parts are built on CNC machines. Tolerance is not an issue with them. After all we are not talking rocket science. In most cases you are only talking about the difference in materials and sometimes there is not a lot of difference in them. We've already discussed how cheap the parts are for manufacturers.


Most often when I upgrade a "cost effective" guitar we are talking pickups, bridge/tailpiece, nut and sometimes tuning machines which are all relatively cheap compared to paying the big bucks for an expensive guitar that doesn't need those improvements. I'm not sure where the notion that paying more for a guitar automatically gets you better wood came from since with the exception of exotic woods on custom models neither Fender, Gibson or any other production line builder that I know of make any claim to selecting higher graded wood for their more expensive models. The reason that they don't make that claim is that the lumber industries grading system is based strictly on cosmetic appearance and there is simply no industry accepted system that grades wood for tonality because there is no method of testing or standard that exists for that.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Budda said:


> Tighter tolerances isnt just measurements, it is the grade of materials. _A MIC guitar does not have the same quality of woods as a warmoth. It is not just fit and finish._


Please explain the difference in quality of ash, alder, maple, mahogany etc, used in MIC vs. Warmoth. How is that quality determined?


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

Steadfastly said:


> Please explain the difference in quality of ash, alder, maple, mahogany etc, used in MIC vs. Warmoth. How is that quality determined?


I would think it would be more a difference in quality control about which pieces of wood they actually use.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

RBlakeney said:


> I would think it would be more a difference in quality control about which pieces of wood they actually use.


Really? Why is that? Do you have any examples to show that?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> Please explain the difference in quality of ash, alder, maple, mahogany etc, used in MIC vs. Warmoth. How is that quality determined?


You think that the wood in your Ikea furniture is the same quality as the wood in your grandparent's kitchen table from 1910? It's not.

The quality is determined by people who have studied lumber and woodworking and know what to look for. I do not build guitars, I do not work with wood (skids aside), so I have no idea what the categories and rating systems are for furniture and musical instrument lumber. I assure you it exists though.

If you want to be cheap you will use cheap materials and cheap labour, not amazing materials and cheap labour. Then the product would no longer be cheap .


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Budda said:


> You think that the wood in your Ikea furniture is the same quality as the wood in your grandparent's kitchen table from 1910? It's not.
> 
> The quality is determined by people who have studied lumber and woodworking and know what to look for. I do not build guitars, I do not work with wood (skids aside),* so I have no idea what the categories and rating systems are for furniture and musical instrument lumber.* I assure you it exists though.
> 
> If you want to be cheap you will use cheap materials and cheap labour, not amazing materials and cheap labour. Then the product would no longer be cheap .


That's what the companies who tell us their wood is the best also know. They also don't tell us why their wood is best. They just use vague words like "select", etc to make it sound better. That's marketing and that's usually what we pay for. When it comes to electric guitars, alder is alder, mahogany is mahogany and so on. It's up to each person to decide if they want to believe the hype or pay for it.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> That's what the companies who tell us their wood is the best also know. They also don't tell us why their wood is best. They just use vague words like "select", etc to make it sound better.


Please post proof.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

Steadfastly said:


> Really? Why is that? Do you have any examples to show that?


Examples to show that the wood is probably overall pretty similar but the quality control is likely different?
That much is just common sense really. 
A company like warmoth that over charges in a big way for a guitar neck can afford to be more choosey about the actual piece of wood they use as opposed to buying a Chinese neck for $20.

You can say alder is alder but i frequent hardwood stores about once a week and if you have 100 pieces of the same type of wood there can be some pretty big differences between them.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Most guitars and many parts are built on CNC machines. Tolerance is not an issue with them. After all we are not talking rocket science. In most cases you are only talking about the difference in materials and sometimes there is not a lot of difference in them. We've already discussed how cheap the parts are for manufacturers.


I would love for you to actually apply some of your knowledge to actual practice and then come back to post about how easy and cheap it all is.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> Really? Why is that? Do you have any examples to show that?


Go to your firewood pile and check out any 4-5 ,same size random pieces of the same wood.
You are likely going to find that some pieces are much lighter than others.
Says something about the structure no ?

just an example


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> That's what the companies who tell us their wood is the best also know. They also don't tell us why their wood is best. They just use vague words like "select", etc to make it sound better. That's marketing and that's usually what we pay for. When it comes to electric guitars, alder is alder, mahogany is mahogany and so on. It's up to each person to decide if they want to believe the hype or pay for it.


All true and whether one believes that wood effects tone or not the fact is that the only three people who can determine that are me, myself and I. Once again the wood industries "A thru 5A" grading system applies to cosmetic appearance only and speaks nothing to tone. Oh, and while were on the subject of Chinese guitars and the quality of materials they're made of I got this one on sale about a year ago and it's the only sub $500 guitar I've bought that needed no upgrades what so ever. The "Super 58" pickups are as good as any I've played. The hardware is top notch. The body and neck are mahogany and I'll leave it to you to decide where on the industries cosmetic grading scale the figured Bubinga top resides. I'm here to tell ya that things have changed in the world of Chinese made guitars.

61d46185-1be7-4ef3-82d4-03569d4d33bf (1) by Don Wiklund, on Flickr


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I am sure, at that price and from China, that's a photoflame top. So while nice looking, it is a very thin veneer of that over basic wood. There will be another 999 guitars with nearly exactly the same top, as they veneered that one piece of wood into 1000 thin slices. Not that there's anything wrong with that from a tonal or visual perspective, but it is different and much cheaper to do it that way.



vadsy said:


> I would love for you to actually apply some of your knowledge to actual practice and then come back to post about how easy and cheap it all is.


Yep. This isn't HVAC, which he seems to think everything out there relates to. There's so much in this area that he simply can not grasp - hell, the shear tonnage of what he doesn't get about the musical instrument world would stun a 40 team of oxen in their tracks.

But you can't tell him how much he doesn't know because he doesn't know enough to get what you're talking about. It becomes a circular argument, with him referring to one youtube after another. And we all know, if you watch youtube long enough, you start to think the planet is flat. And making HVAC ducting is the same as making musical instruments. Kinda silly, no?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> Yep. This isn't HVAC, which he seems to think everything out there relates to. There's so much in this area that he simply can not grasp - hell, the shear tonnage of what he doesn't get about the musical instrument world would stun a 40 team of oxen in their tracks.
> 
> But you can't tell him how much he doesn't know because he doesn't know enough to get what you're talking about. It becomes a circular argument, with him referring to one youtube after another. And we all know, if you watch youtube long enough, you start to think the planet is flat. And making HVAC ducting is the same as making musical instruments. Kinda silly, no?


I'm pretty sure his HVAC experience was picking orders in a warehouse.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

@BEACHBUM Im not talking 5A ratings, im talking about choosing pieces for bodies and necks. See my Ikea comparison.

Why do you guys think "16ply baltic birch" is desireable and doubles the cost of a 412 compared to MDF?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Budda said:


> Why do you guys think "16ply baltic birch" is desireable and doubles the cost of a 412 compared to MDF?


you're just falling for the marketing


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

Steadfastly said:


> That's what the companies who tell us their wood is the best also know. They also don't tell us why their wood is best. They just use vague words like "select", etc to make it sound better. That's marketing and that's usually what we pay for. When it comes to electric guitars, alder is alder, mahogany is mahogany and so on. It's up to each person to decide if they want to believe the hype or pay for it.


Yeah, it's all a scam. So much so that companies like PRS and Gibson employ people whose sole job is to obtain the best woods possible for them just so we can pay more $.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> I am sure, at that price and from China, that's a photoflame top. So while nice looking, it is a very thin veneer of that over basic wood. There will be another 999 guitars with nearly exactly the same top, as they veneered that one piece of wood into 1000 thin slices. Not that there's anything wrong with that from a tonal or visual perspective, but it is different and much cheaper to do it that way.


Once again we are still in the same boat since Gibson isn't talking about how thick their veneers are either. It's the same exact kind of assumption buyers make when they choose to believe that Gibson uses better quality body and neck woods than low cost offshore builders. The objective facts about these things aren't available because builders choose not to make them available and leave it to the buyers wishful thinking to make it so. And no, this one is not photo flame. It is as listed in the spec sheet, genuine bubinga.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Budda said:


> @BEACHBUM Im not talking 5A ratings, im talking about choosing pieces for bodies and necks. See my Ikea comparison.
> 
> Why do you guys think "16ply baltic birch" is desireable and doubles the cost of a 412 compared to MDF?


I'm confused. Are you talking about guitars or speaker cabinets?


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

BEACHBUM said:


> Once again we are still in the same boat since Gibson isn't talking about how thick their veneers are either. It's the same exact kind of assumption buyers make when they choose to believe that Gibson uses better quality body and neck woods than low cost offshore builders. The objective facts about these things aren't available because builders choose not to make them available and leave it to the buyers wishful thinking to make it so. And no, this one is not photo flame. It is as listed in the spec sheet, genuine bubinga.


i don't know if I understand what you're saying. But I'm pretty sure epiphone uses veneers for some and Gibson just use actual top pieces... which there usually is a measurement of how thick they are.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

BEACHBUM said:


> Once again we are still in the same boat since Gibson isn't talking about how thick their veneers are either. It's the same exact kind of assumption buyers make when they choose to believe that Gibson uses better quality body and neck woods than low cost offshore builders. The objective facts about these things aren't available because builders choose not to make them available and leave it to the buyers wishful thinking to make it so. And no, this one is not photo flame. It is as listed in the spec sheet, genuine bubinga.


Not really. Both of my mahogany body / maple top Gibsons don't have any veneer. Solid tops. The wood you see on the top is the same as what you would see on the bottom if you unglued it. That's a far cry from what you are talking about and not really a comparison to be made.

My 335 is veneer. Like most thinlines and archtops. And a complete different kettle of fish.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

Of course it's all marketing. That's how things work. Does anyone really believe it costs $50,000 more to manufacture a Cadillac than a Cruze? Of course not. Is the Cadillac better built than a Cruze? Maybe. maybe not, but if you drive a Cadillac the experience is very different from driving a Cruze. Another example would be a 32" TV compared to a 75" TV. The cost of manufacture is very similar but the user experience is quite different. You are paying for an experience. Part of the experience may or may not be better quality materials but for most people it is a better experience. I've played a few different guitars. The higher end ones are different to play than the lower end ones for the most part. I can make the same sounds with both of them but the experience of making those sounds is different. It may be mostly in my perception but a lot of people are willing to pay for perception.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

RBlakeney said:


> i don't know if I understand what you're saying. But I'm pretty sure epiphone uses veneers for some and Gibson just use actual top pieces... which there usually is a measurement of how thick they are.


You brought up the topid of veneers so that's what I replied to. Caps are a whole different thing. The vast majority of the caps that Gibson applies are a fairly thick ungraded maple on mahogany whereas veneered tops are usually done in flamed, quilted or burled wood treatments. I can't compare the thickness of caps that offshore builders use as compared to Gibson when they choose to do that but I can say that the claim that a LP with a cap sounds better than the same guitar with a solid body can't be proven to hold water. Once again that assumption is simply unverifiable.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Kerry Brown said:


> _*Of course it's all marketing. That's how things work. Does anyone really believe it costs $50,000 more to manufacture a Cadillac than a Cruze?*_ Of course not. Is the Cadillac better built than a Cruze? Maybe. maybe not, but if you drive a Cadillac the experience is very different from driving a Cruze. Another example would be a 32" TV compared to a 75" TV. The cost of manufacture is very similar but the user experience is quite different. You are paying for an experience. Part of the experience may or may not be better quality materials but for most people it is a better experience. I've played a few different guitars. The higher end ones are different to play than the lower end ones for the most part. I can make the same sounds with both of them but the experience of making those sounds is different. It may be mostly in my perception but* a lot of people are willing to pay for perception*.


Kerry, that is so true. I bought a new Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme in 1984 for $15,000.00 and was looking at buying their cheap little Chevette 4 cylinder for $5500.00 as a second car. The inside information was that the Cutlass cost GM only $1600.00 more to build the Cutlass than it did to build the Chevette. Maybe I should have bought three Chevette's.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

BEACHBUM said:


> You brought up the topid of veneers so that's what I replied to. Caps are a whole different thing. The vast majority of the caps that Gibson applies are maple on mahogany whereas veneered tops are usually done in flamed, burled and other more exotic woods. I can't compare the thickness of caps that offshore builders use as compared to Gibson when they choose to do that but I can say that the claim that a LP with a cap sounds better than the same guitar with a solid body holds water. Once again that assumption is simply unverifiable.


I think you may be getting confused. I didn't bring up veneers at all, that was someone else who doesn't have a similar name at all. 
Also you still aren't making sense as the other poster was talking about how the Chinese guitar uses a veneer rather than a cap.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

RBlakeney said:


> I think you may be getting confused. I didn't bring up veneers at all, that was someone else who doesn't have a similar name at all.
> Also you still aren't making sense as the other poster was talking about how the Chinese guitar uses a veneer rather than a cap.


Sorry about the fopaux but my point still remains. Doesn't it?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Bubb said:


> Go to your firewood pile and check out any 4-5 ,same size random pieces of the same wood.
> You are likely going to find that some pieces are much lighter than others.
> Says something about the structure no ?
> 
> just an example


I hear ya. But what we don't know is what grade is best with which guitar. When it comes to comparing one piece of said species of wood with another said species of wood, which one is best for said guitar. The big boys says theirs are the best. The competition says they are using the same wood. Unless there are verifiable specs, I'll believe the competition until I see it verified. From Mr. Cynical.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

It seems to me there are two opposing points of view here. There are those who believe it only makes sense that if you pay more then you get better. Then there are those who say prove it. And here we go down the bottomless rabbit hole.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> I hear ya. But what we don't know is what grade is best with which guitar. When it comes to comparing one piece of said species of wood with another said species of wood, which one is best for said guitar. The big boys says theirs are the best. The competition says they are using the same wood. Unless there are verifiable specs, I'll believe the competition until I see it verified. From Mr. Cynical.


I find it pretty funny that a guy who has made his beliefs very clear, on this forum, can rest his life on faith but need to see guitar specs verified. I am beginning to think you and guitars are not meant to be in the same room.

also,,.. this thread is very entertaining, kudos to everyone!


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

vadsy said:


> I find it pretty funny that a guy who has made his beliefs very clear, on this forum, can rest his life on faith but need to see guitar specs verified. I am beginning to think you and guitars are not meant to be in the same room.
> 
> also,,.. this thread is very entertaining, kudos to everyone!


Quoted for visibilty.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

BEACHBUM said:


> All true and whether one believes that wood effects tone or not the fact is that the only three people who can determine that are me, myself and I. Once again the wood industries "A thru 5A" grading system applies to cosmetic appearance only and speaks nothing to tone. Oh, and while were on the subject of Chinese guitars and the quality of materials they're made of I got this one on sale about a year ago and it's the only sub $500 guitar I've bought that needed no upgrades what so ever. The "Super 58" pickups are as good as any I've played. The hardware is top notch. The body and neck are mahogany and I'll leave it to you to decide where on the industries cosmetic grading scale the figured Bubinga top resides. I'm here to tell ya that things have changed in the world of Chinese made guitars.
> 
> 61d46185-1be7-4ef3-82d4-03569d4d33bf (1) by Don Wiklund, on Flickr


i owned an identical guitar. like you, i was pretty impressed with the pickups. it was a really good guitar, right off the shelf. i bought it at steve's in toronto . i did dress a few fret ends, but that's it. the only reason i even sold it was because i needed the money for something else. i wouldn't hesitate to buy another one if i came across it for the right price. the pickups are really good. it was prone to neck dive, but not as bad as some guitars i've had in the past.



Kerry Brown said:


> Of course it's all marketing. That's how things work. Does anyone really believe it costs $50,000 more to manufacture a Cadillac than a Cruze? Of course not. Is the Cadillac better built than a Cruze? Maybe. maybe not, but if you drive a Cadillac the experience is very different from driving a Cruze. Another example would be a 32" TV compared to a 75" TV. The cost of manufacture is very similar but the user experience is quite different. You are paying for an experience. Part of the experience may or may not be better quality materials but for most people it is a better experience. I've played a few different guitars. The higher end ones are different to play than the lower end ones for the most part. I can make the same sounds with both of them but the experience of making those sounds is different. It may be mostly in my perception but a lot of people are willing to pay for perception.


good post.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

vadsy said:


> I find it pretty funny that a guy who has made his beliefs very clear, on this forum, can rest his life on faith but need to see guitar specs verified. I am beginning to think you and guitars are not meant to be in the same room.
> 
> also,,.. this thread is very entertaining, kudos to everyone!


Was going to say,for someone who demands scientific proof for almost any claim made by guitar/pick-up/effects manufacturers, there is a huge elephant in the room.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

BEACHBUM said:


> Once again we are still in the same boat since Gibson isn't talking about how thick their veneers are either. It's the same exact kind of assumption buyers make when they choose to believe that Gibson uses better quality body and neck woods than low cost offshore builders. The objective facts about these things aren't available because builders choose not to make them available and leave it to the buyers wishful thinking to make it so. And no, this one is not photo flame. It is as listed in the spec sheet, genuine bubinga.


You know there's videos of the Gibson production line right? There's videos of various other brands as well. Not everyone is slapping veneers on $4K guitars, most of them are actually that quality of wood. Look up some build threads if you don't believe me. The expensive builders *are* using better quality woods than offshore builders, or else offshore guitars would cost way more. Why? Because they'd need to make that profit back from increased margins on better wood. I don't know what's so tough to understand about that.

Why would a company invest in a treated room to store their custom shop/hand-selected wood in? Why would they go to the expense of hiring someone to select that wood? Why would dealers pay to fly to those factories to select woods for their limited runs? It's not free to do, so there has to be a profitable reason for doing it. Watch some videos man, it's not all the same wood. Therefore it's not all the same cost, and it's not going on every guitar coming out of South Korea or China.



BEACHBUM said:


> I'm confused. Are you talking about guitars or speaker cabinets?


I brought up cabinets to make a comparison, and I think a few people missed it.



Steadfastly said:


> I hear ya. But what we don't know is what grade is best with which guitar. When it comes to comparing one piece of said species of wood with another said species of wood, which one is best for said guitar. The big boys says theirs are the best. The competition says they are using the same wood. Unless there are verifiable specs, I'll believe the competition until I see it verified. From Mr. Cynical.


Oh I'm not comparing species of wood. I'm saying there's better wood and worse wood within one species. I think that got lost in the ether. There are verifiable specs - where the wood came from, what the age of the wood is, and the expertise of the guy who said it was any good in the first place. Sounds like you need to watch some factory videos and build threads too.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

^^ Like I mentioned before I'm 70. I tend to do that once in awhile.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

The difference in labor costs alone are substantial from a North American made instrument to something offshore.


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

I had to double check what Forum I was on.
It was starting to read like The Gear Page.
I am prepared to read another 50 or so pages over the next month.
Not that I will really learn anything.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Tone Chaser said:


> I had to double check what Forum I was on.
> It was starting to read like The Gear Page.
> I am prepared to read another 50 or so pages over the next month.
> Not that I will really learn anything.


whats wrong with the gear page?


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

BEACHBUM said:


> You brought up the topid of veneers so that's what I replied to. Caps are a whole different thing. The vast majority of the caps that Gibson applies are a fairly thick ungraded maple on mahogany whereas veneered tops are usually done in flamed, quilted or burled wood treatments. I can't compare the thickness of caps that offshore builders use as compared to Gibson when they choose to do that but I can say that the claim that a LP with a cap sounds better than the same guitar with a solid body can't be proven to hold water. Once again that assumption is simply unverifiable.


What? All LP copies (at least those trying to be accurate) use maple caps over mahogany. And the copies (again if it's trying to be an LP copy, and most are) will be 1" thick and carved. Cheaper copies will generally be ungraded maple with a very thin veneer of figured maple, but I've seen other woods. The only exception would be original and custom shop Customs which are all mahogany, no maple cap. 

Now to solid maple caps. The USA LP's are probably a basic grading but if you've got a CS-type solid flamed maple top (or quilted), that is obviously a highly graded top, depending on the figuring. Flamed or quilted veneers are nothing - literally a dime a dozen. One inch thick pieces of flamed maple that hasn't been shaved into a few hundreds veneers is worth, well, hundreds of times more than the similar veneer top. That's just simple math. Whether it sounds better or not is debatable, but whether it is worth substantially more isn't.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Holly F... this thread was a long read !!! 

I m a cheap bastard so after learning at the age of 15 that buying new was a rip off... been on the used scene ever since... I also discovered Japan made instruments from the late 70 and the 80s afterwards... 

So... I m fortunate to say that I have amazing guitars. and all are on the cheap side money wise !!! HNG^%$

Also, discovered that Cort started to dish out prestige instruments mid 80s... another little gold mine...

Basically, you can get great amazing players for a bargain if your patient and do some research... 

The point is to have fun!!! 

Rock on !!!


I also learned that great players will make any instrument sound great !!! B#(*


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## Gimper (Jan 14, 2016)

Here's my contribution to the OP's call for cheap unique guitar pics.... 

2001 Epiphone Les Paul, made in Korea. A sparkle Les Paul damnit!  You don't see a ton of those. And the MIK Epiphones seem to be pretty rare too. Whether or not it's something "special" is certainly subjective... but I enjoy it.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

Wow...this thread keeps on trucking!
My only comment on wood quality is one of the reasons I started this thread was not only in my Cort an excellent guitar, it has one of the nicest grain on any guitar I have ever seen. Plus its lightweight swamp ash.
But, back to me being a hypocrite, I just paid a fair amount for a 1963 Melody Maker. Its not by any means better than my Cort or Degas. Its just cool to own a 50 year old Gibson!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Grain isnt always indicative of good wood though.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

capnjim said:


> Wow...this thread keeps on trucking!
> My only comment on wood quality is one of the reasons I started this thread was not only in my Cort an excellent guitar, it has one of the nicest grain on any guitar I have ever seen. Plus its lightweight swamp ash.
> But, back to me being a hypocrite, I just paid a fair amount for a 1963 Melody Maker. Its not by any means better than my Cort or Degas. Its just cool to own a 50 year old Gibson!


misleading thread title is misleading


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

I dont really know if wood grain makes lots of difference sound wise but I do have several examples of the same guitar and none sound exactly the same...

I say wood grain is more for sex appeal...


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Frenchy99 said:


> I dont really know if wood grain makes lots of difference sound wise but I do have several examples of the same guitar and none sound exactly the same...
> 
> I say wood grain is more for sex appeal...


this does nothing for me, probably more of a deterrent and in terms of sex appeal it brings an old phyllis diller or cloris leachman to mind


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Budda said:


> Grain isnt always indicative of good wood though.


Of course there are exceptions to every rule......but as a rule, all the really nice looking woods are hard & heavy. Usually too heavy to make a "comfortable" guitar out of. The lighter woods are usually less attractive and much softer. Some so soft that they rely on the finish to stop every pick mark and finger nail scratch from appearing on your brand new guitar. Guitars walk a fine line between too heavy and too blah.

A lot of the really prized woods, the burls and spalts etc., are very soft and almost rotten/mealy feeling. They are not sound wood and probably absorb a lot of vibrations


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

vadsy said:


> in terms of sex appeal it brings an old phyllis diller or cloris leachman to mind



Whatever gets you off bud !!!


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Frenchy99 said:


> Whatever gets you off bud !!!


just slightly out of context for me but perhaps a Freudian slip for you, it makes sense that you chose an avatar just like the above picture of the crazy cat lady


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Budda said:


> Grain isnt always indicative of good wood though.



I read that both Yamaha and Matsumoku had invested in large facilities back in the 70s to age and dry quality wood for production, and that the wood was selected based on the model quality... Higher end model got the better quality wood...


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Frenchy99 said:


> Higher end model got the better quality wood...


This is what everyone does.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Frenchy99 said:


> I read that both Yamaha and Matsumoku had invested in large facilities back in the 70s to age and dry quality wood for production, and that the wood was selected based on the model quality... Higher end model got the better quality wood...


Was that for electric guitars or acoustics?


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Steadfastly said:


> Was that for electric guitars or acoustics?


Yamaha for both and Matsumoku was for electric only... they outsourced most of the acoustic line to others.


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## Avro Arrow (Dec 31, 2017)

Steadfastly said:


> Most guitars and many parts are built on CNC machines. Tolerance is not an issue with them. After all we are not talking rocket science. In most cases you are only talking about the difference in materials and sometimes there is not a lot of difference in them. We've already discussed how cheap the parts are for manufacturers.


I was thinking the same thing, this is not rocket science, in fact, it's an age-old manufacturing process.


Steadfastly said:


> Please explain the difference in quality of ash, alder, maple, mahogany etc, used in MIC vs. Warmoth. How is that quality determined?


Honestly, I think that you're right. I think that the biggest differences as far as quality is concerned is that the companies that make cheap guitars make their profit through volume so speed of manufacture is key for them. The higher-end companies have high-quality and experienced staff and are willing to pay them for their expertise. They take their time, using more meticulous methods to ensure that their guitars are flawless as they leave the factory. With the Asian companies, they make so many so quickly that a lot of flaws inevitably end up getting missed which is why their quality tends to be less consistent compared the likes of Fender, Gibson (well, until recently anyway), PRS, Godin, etc. that are made in North America. North American and European workers believe in taking their time and making sure that things are done right, not necessarily fast.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

You really think a MIC epi has the same quality woods as a gibson LP standard? 

Really?


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Avro Arrow said:


> North American and European workers believe in taking their time and making sure that things are done right, not necessarily fast.



Depends on the industry and the Company...

A friends daughter just went through an intensive interview process for Bell Canada... in her exams, they had to problem solve for 1 hr on a series of question. out of 40 people , she had the most right answers but fewer questions answered.... She was put in the last position and did not continue the interview process...

Bell s policy, quick bandaid without solving the problems...

You can confirm the result just by calling them...


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Budda said:


> You really think a MIC epi has the same quality woods as a gibson LP standard?
> 
> Really?


It likely doesn't but if everything else was equal could we hear the difference? I would think that few of us could and almost none of the listeners of our music could. I think this has been discussed once or twice here before.

Fender, Gibson, Ibanez, PRS, etc. could do this test and publish the results. The fact that they don't is telling.


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## Avro Arrow (Dec 31, 2017)

Frenchy99 said:


> Depends on the industry and the Company...
> 
> A friends daughter just went through an intensive interview process for Bell Canada... in her exams, they had to problem solve for 1 hr on a series of question. out of 40 people , she had the most right answers but fewer questions answered.... She was put in the last position and did not continue the interview process...
> 
> ...


I completely agree Frenchy, but let's face it, Bell doesn't actually MAKE anything so I'm not usually one to use "Bell Canada" and "craftsmanship" in the same sentence. I can tell you for sure that Enbridge, Rogers, Telus and Videotron are no different. That's just the way utility companies are no matter where you go. Hell, Hydro-Quebec took two years to realise that I didn't live in Lennoxville anymore and Hydro-Quebec is probably more on the ball than the other Hydro companies in Canada.


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## Avro Arrow (Dec 31, 2017)

Steadfastly said:


> It likely doesn't but if everything else was equal could we hear the difference? I would think that few of us could and almost none of the listeners of our music could. I think this has been discussed once or twice here before.
> 
> Fender, Gibson, Ibanez, PRS, etc. could do this test and publish the results. The fact that they don't is telling.


Here's the thing, wood is wood as long as it's from the same species. It's not like you can look at a Silver Maple and say "Oh, I bet that tree is made of high-quality timber!", all you can say is "That tree's wood will make a mighty fine guitar neck!" no matter where in the world you are. Grading wood to the degree that it would have an impact on the construction of musical instruments would be prohibitively expensive, inconclusive and a complete waste of time and money. This is because the difference between one slab of wood and another (assuming that they're not rotted) with regard to tone, especially on electrics, would be so slight as to be indistinguishable, if a difference existed at all. That's why wood grading is all based on appearance, no matter how ugly a piece of wood is, it will still keep its mechanical characteristics of strength and resonance because it's the DNA of that entire species that makes the wood what it is.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I can see some new relationships being built here and possibly a great guitar on the cheap from a few guys who have no formal training but have a lot of heart and internet know-how.

Good luck, fellas!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Avro Arrow said:


> Here's the thing, wood is wood as long as it's from the same species. It's not like you can look at a Silver Maple and say "Oh, I bet that tree is made of high-quality timber!", all you can say is "That tree's wood will make a mighty fine guitar neck!" no matter where in the world you are. Grading wood to the degree that it would have an impact on the construction of musical instruments would be prohibitively expensive, inconclusive and a complete waste of time and money. This is because the difference between one slab of wood and another (assuming that they're not rotted) with regard to tone, especially on electrics, would be so slight as to be indistinguishable, if a difference existed at all. That's why wood grading is all based on appearance, no matter how ugly a piece of wood is, it will still keep its mechanical characteristics of strength and resonance because it's the DNA of that entire species that makes the wood what it is.


I agree with that in principle when it comes to electric guitars, especially since the wood plays a much smaller part in tone than a number of other parts. There would likely still be a slight difference that could be measured in an anechoic chamber. 

With acoustics, it's a whole different discussion as the wood is an integral part that produces tone.


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## Avro Arrow (Dec 31, 2017)

Steadfastly said:


> I agree with that in principle when it comes to electric guitars, especially since the wood plays a much smaller part in tone than a number of other parts. There would likely still be a slight difference that could be measured in an anechoic chamber.
> 
> With acoustics, it's a whole different discussion as the wood is an integral part that produces tone.


Right, and using an anechoic chamber on lumber would be stupidly expensive and useless because you'd have to make an instrument out of it first to see if it's "worthy". As for acoustics, it makes a bigger difference but again, cedar tops sound like cedar tops and spruce tops sound like spruce tops. The difference would be based on the species of wood so again, the difference would be in the type of construction (solid top vs. laminate top).


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Avro Arrow said:


> Right, and using an anechoic chamber on lumber would be stupidly expensive and useless because you'd have to make an instrument out of it first to see if it's "worthy". As for acoustics, it makes a bigger difference but again, cedar tops sound like cedar tops and spruce tops sound like spruce tops. * The difference would be based on the species of wood so again, the difference would be in the type of construction (solid top vs. laminate top)*.


And the thickness of the top. I am quite sure some boutique builders sand some parts of the top thinner than other sections.


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## Avro Arrow (Dec 31, 2017)

Steadfastly said:


> And the thickness of the top. I am quite sure some boutique builders sand some parts of the top thinner than other sections.


Well sure, but we were talking about the quality (not quantity) of the wood so I was working on the assumption that the quantity is equal. You're absolutely right that the thickness will matter, I was just saying that each wood has a uniform resonance that is specific to its species regardless of which company made it. In different configurations, you're right, things change. My point was that there really isn't a "wood quality" difference between one piece of say, silver maple and another piece of silver maple from a different tree, at least not a difference that would be known before the guitars were finished being made.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Avro Arrow said:


> Well sure, but we were talking about the quality (not quantity) of the wood so I was working on the assumption that the quantity is equal. You're absolutely right that the thickness will matter, I was just saying that each wood has a uniform resonance that is specific to its species regardless of which company made it. In different configurations, you're right, things change.* My point was that there really isn't a "wood quality" difference between one piece of say, silver maple and another piece of silver maple from a different tree, *at least not a difference that would be known before the guitars were finished being made.


I have heard some argue this point. I won't. You are spot on.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> It likely doesn't


Gonna stop you right here .



Avro Arrow said:


> Here's the thing, wood is wood as long as it's from the same species. It's not like you can look at a Silver Maple and say "Oh, I bet that tree is made of high-quality timber!"


No, that's why you know *after* you cut it and dry it. You don't truly know until the guitar is assembled whether or not you have a dead plank or not. I don't claim to be a luthier but I think there's a lot that neither of us actually know but you're pretending you do. I'm always open to be proven incorrect.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

@Budda let it go, these guys are seasoned pros who know better and will not be swayed


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

Avro Arrow said:


> My point was that there really isn't a "wood quality" difference between one piece of say, silver maple and another piece of silver maple from a different tree, at least not a difference that would be known before the guitars were finished being made.


 What if one piece is a perfect piece and one piece has a crack that has been filled with sawdust and glue? You might be able to see the difference.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Budda said:


> Gonna stop you right here .


Ha! Ha!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

vadsy said:


> @Budda let it go, these guys are seasoned pros who know better and will not be swayed


True, but work is in the slow season.


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## Avro Arrow (Dec 31, 2017)

RBlakeney said:


> What if one piece is a perfect piece and one piece has a crack that has been filled with sawdust and glue? You might be able to see the difference.


Oh totally, but it's not going to come from the tree like that. I do get what you're saying though. The devil is in the preparation.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

Avro Arrow said:


> Oh totally, but it's not going to come from the tree like that. I do get what you're saying though. The devil is in the preparation.


So even though they could come from the same tree or species the wood used could be different between guitars. Where expensive guitars would scrap that cracked wood, cheap guitars would fill it in,use it and paint over it.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Avro Arrow said:


> As for acoustics, it makes a bigger difference but again, cedar tops sound like cedar tops and spruce tops sound like spruce tops. The difference would be based on the species of wood so again, the difference would be in the type of construction (solid top vs. laminate top).


So Englemann sounds like Sitka sounds like Adirondack? No. Way too simplistic.

In the hands of a good luthier, they sound different - which is why they use the different types of spruce. Money is only one factor.

Not to mention the bracing pattern, how the braces are made, even down to the glues. And of course, high end builders know how to sound out different top pieces and then carve them to maximize the tonal characteristics. 

There is so much more to this than you, at this point, appreciate. Feel free to gen up with an expert ..........


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Part II is even more on-point, regarding the unique properties of different tonewoods.


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## Avro Arrow (Dec 31, 2017)

High/Deaf said:


> So Englemann sounds like Sitka sounds like Adirondack? No. Way too simplistic.
> 
> In the hands of a good luthier, they sound different - which is why they use the different types of spruce. Money is only one factor.
> 
> ...


Well, yes, I was being overly simplistic. I was referring to mass-produced guitars. In the hands of a skilled Luthier, I do believe that anything is possible and they know EXACTLY how to get the sound they want through the use of different woods. I was being more generic like, a Seagull S6 Cedar will sound very close to a Simon and Patrick Woodland Cedar whereas it won't sound like a spruce top at all because spruce has a brighter sound than Cedar, which is more warm. I was being simplistic and you're right, I probably don't know every wood that can be used and since I don't really like acoustic guitars all that much, it most likely won't ever really matter to me. Those are fantastic videos though, thanks for showing me.


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## Avro Arrow (Dec 31, 2017)

RBlakeney said:


> So even though they could come from the same tree or species the wood used could be different between guitars. Where expensive guitars would scrap that cracked wood, cheap guitars would fill it in,use it and paint over it.


You're right about that, but cheap guitars would also use some wood that was actually good. There's just too many made to just use defective pieces that have been smoothed over. I do agree that the cheap guitar companies don't care all that much about quality, especially with the electrics, they're more about producing huge volume.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Haven’t read much of the previous posts but with regard to tops I have an HD35 Custom Shop which has more growl than my hd28v or d18. The top looks like Sitka but when I bought it they mentioned something about Adirondack. I don’t really give a rats about stuff like that - if it sounds good it’s good but hd35s are supposed to be bass heavy and this one isn’t. If I’m still alive and I don’t forget maybe someday I’ll contact the 12th fret and ask them what kind of top the specked on this pig when they ordered it.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

I’ve never seen more concern over cost of items (and what other people pay for them) than on guitar forums. Sheeeeit!

If you like a guitar and you can afford it, the only person whose business it is what you paid for it is you. People who brag about how much they paid for an item, whether it be a huge price tag or a bargain, are just that...braggarts. How about people stop with the bragging and enjoy what they have? It’s just money and stuff and doesn’t make you a better person either way. I don’t care if you got a bargain or spent princely sum on your guitar, I just care if your guitar rocks and is cool. And if it makes you happy and helps you make music. 

I like guitars. My little collection has a decent range of prices in it, but I enjoy them all. My favourite in terms of feel and playability, as well as features and sound, is my most expensive. Maybe that’s coincidence, maybe I got what I paid for. Either way, whenever I pick it up, I smile. When I strap it on, it feels like it wasn’t made for me. It felt like that the first time I picked it up in the store. I didn’t buy it right away and even tried a couple others of the same model, but that one was the one. 

I have several other guitars that I enjoy almost as much as my PRS and still others that fire up my GAS. And surely I’ll own one or two of them when the time and finances are right, regardless of whether they cost $50, $500, $5,000 or $50,000. When that happens, I’ll share my joy with my fellow guitar geeks and I won’t brag about how much or how little I paid.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

it reads like the majority, not all, of the people arguing who prefer cheap guitars in this thread need to convince the rest that they are right in owning them while the expensive owners are wrong in owning theirs

classic religious debate, classic guitars argument


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Trump sz he has the most expensive guitar ever made and it has Huuuuuge sound and the best ever made....


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Frenchy99 said:


> Trump sz he has the most expensive guitar ever made and it has Huuuuuge sound and the best ever made....


And he's the most _stable genius_ rocking it!

NOT.

I'll bet Harper is a better player (and that isn't saying much, but at least his hair looks a little more real)

I'd rather watch Segal play


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

vadsy said:


> it reads like the majority, not all, of the people arguing who prefer cheap guitars in this thread need to convince the rest that they are right in owning them while the expensive owners are wrong in owning theirs
> 
> classic religious debate, classic guitars argument


I agree. Works the other way around as well.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Dorian2 said:


> I agree. Works the other way around as well.


absolutely, it plays both ways. I've just noticed a trend where the guys with the real fancy collections have bowed out of these sorts of debates rather quickly while the rest of us bicker away. they may contribute a post or two but they don't stick around to argue while the guys who swear by Corts and whatever need to dissect and pat themselves on the back for buying a guitar made out of pallet wood by slave labour in a dimly lit third world shop,,. oops just did it again, oh well thread has to continue


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

I own cheap guitars, expensive guitars, old guitars and newer guitars...

The best guitars have to have slave labor behind them, its not the same if employees are paid a decent wage !!! It kills the Mojo !!!

Ask Phyllis Diller !


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

My No.1 guitar is currently available at Home Hardware at 27.99 $ !!! Its made with top quality Canadian maple !!! Top of the line !!!

HNG^%$


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

I have at least a dozen puns about “digging” that guitar, but I will just bury those thoughts now.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

jdto said:


> I’ve never seen more concern over cost of items (and what other people pay for them) than on guitar forums. Sheeeeit!
> 
> If you like a guitar and you can afford it, the only person whose business it is what you paid for it is you. People who brag about how much they paid for an item, whether it be a huge price tag or a bargain, are just that...braggarts. How about people stop with the bragging and enjoy what they have? It’s just money and stuff and doesn’t make you a better person either way. I don’t care if you got a bargain or spent princely sum on your guitar, I just care if your guitar rocks and is cool. And if it makes you happy and helps you make music.
> 
> ...


Some good points there JDTO but if you buy a $50,000.00 guitar, I want to know about it, okay?


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> Some good points there JDTO but if you buy a $50,000.00 guitar, I want to know about it, okay?


I’d post a NGD thread, for sure. I wouldn’t post about the price, but I’m sure a resourceful internet user would be able to find out


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

vadsy said:


> it reads like the majority, not all, of the people arguing who prefer cheap guitars in this thread need to convince the rest that they are right in owning them while the expensive owners are wrong in owning theirs


I just looked at it as another show your gear thread, cost irrelevant.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

LanceT said:


> I just looked at it as another show your gear thread, cost irrelevant.


you are the true spirit of the Forum


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

If I find an old early 60s Gibson LP for $20 in a Phyllis Diller garage sale, does that mean its garbage to the purist since I did not spend 4K for it ???


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## SaucyJack (Mar 8, 2017)

Got these 2 shipped to the door for around $600. I'm still deciding which one to keep. The Brian by Bacchus on the left is the front runner so far but has a slim neck profile. The Holly on the right has a monster neck profile but it's a shorter scale and needs a good setup, pups and tuners. One of them will be passed on....


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Another winner on the cheap. Guitar + upgraded pick ups + case still only cost 1/3 what I payed for my new Studio.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

BEACHBUM said:


> Another winner on the cheap. Guitar + upgraded pick ups + case still only cost 1/3 what I payed for my new Studio.


What are those pickups?


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

@BEACHBUM to be fair, if you bought a brand new LP studio you kind of already overpaid  (they're $850-$1K used all day)


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Waiting on a some push/pull pots, but will soon have a PRS Tremonti SE loaded with a pair of Duncan A2 Pros for <$400. Lightweight, chunky neck & I expect it to be relatively versatile thanks to the coil taps. This will be my jam night guitar.

Thanks to @dmc69 (great deal on the guitar), @adcandour (great deal on some pickups) and @FreewayJam (soldering skills extraordinaire) for making it happen.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)




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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

sulphur said:


> View attachment 164993
> View attachment 165001


Cool--my brother did something similar with my Iceman back in the day--wish I had pictures of it...


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## Tenement Funster (Sep 16, 2017)

Especially with electrics, if the build of the neck and body is sound, every other component can be upgraded to suit the users needs. I've taken a number of Epiphones and replaced pickups, tuning heads, pots, etc., and they've all sounded great. The one thing that some of the off shore copies don't have is the quality finishing that a Gibson might have, but that doesn't affect how they sound or play.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Roryfan said:


> Waiting on a some push/pull pots, but will soon have a PRS Tremonti SE loaded with a pair of Duncan A2 Pros for <$400. Lightweight, chunky neck & I expect it to be relatively versatile thanks to the coil taps. This will be my jam night guitar.
> 
> Thanks to @dmc69 (great deal on the guitar), @adcandour (great deal on some pickups) and @FreewayJam (soldering skills extraordinaire) for making it happen.


I've been curious about those AP2's in comparison to my '59's, so I'm gonna need to hear this before you move it  (preferably with my custom 22 in tow).


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Budda said:


> I've been curious about those AP2's in comparison to my '59's...


I'm betting you will like the AP2's. I remember enjoying them. Admittedly, I typically like AlNiCo II in comparison to AlNiCo V.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

greco said:


> I'm betting you will like the AP2's. I remember enjoying them. Admittedly, I typically like AlNiCo II in comparison to AlNiCo V.


I think I'd like them a lot, the question becomes are they an improvement for the sound we have? Which is also why I'm looking at pedals and amps again. Part of it is also that I seem to change my rig every 3-5 years haha.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Budda said:


> ....the question becomes are they an improvement for the sound we have?


To some extent, that must be difficult for you in general when it comes to tone-related mods/gear. 

Good Luck with it!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

greco said:


> To some extent, that must be difficult for you in general when it comes to tone-related mods/gear.
> 
> Good Luck with it!


We are pretty good at staying in our wheelhouse haha. Dan was experimenting with dirt pedals, but now that he has the A/B setup he's all set. I think I sound pretty good, and the volume definitely helps the "fun factor" - I just wonder if there's something else that will add that 10% I don't currently have.

And of course I'm wondering all of this when NAMM is happening...


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Budda said:


> I've been curious about those AP2's in comparison to my '59's, so I'm gonna need to hear this before you move it  (preferably with my custom 22 in tow).


They were in my Monty, so I'm pretty sure you've played them, but not through your rig.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Budda said:


> I've been curious about those AP2's in comparison to my '59's, so I'm gonna need to hear this before you move it  (preferably with my custom 22 in tow).





greco said:


> I'm betting you will like the AP2's. I remember enjoying them. Admittedly, I typically like AlNiCo II in comparison to AlNiCo V.


I had a set of 59s in a LP Classic, they sounded quite nice, although I’m chalking that up to good wood (methinks the Faber bridge also helped).

These are essentially the Slash pickup. Thinner body & longer scale so it will be slightly different, but still excited to hear them.

Had the bridge in an HSS Strat & didn’t like it, but I think that was more related to my issues with HSS Strats (balancing volume with the SCs & what’s lost by an HB that floats in the guard vs. being mounted to the body). The struggle is real.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

adcandour said:


> They were in my Monty, so I'm pretty sure you've played them, but not through your rig.


You had a JB in the bridge of your Monty. I swapped that with the A2 Pro that was in the HSS & sold the loaded guard.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Budda said:


> @BEACHBUM to be fair, if you bought a brand new LP studio you kind of already overpaid  (they're $850-$1K used all day)


You bet. I definitely over paid. Just a case of live and learn I guess. Having said that if I turned around and sold the Agile today I'd be lucky to get back half of what I put into it. On the other hand the same applies to my Studio. So comparing them apples to apples we still end up in about the same place.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

RBlakeney said:


> What are those pickups?


My other humbuckers are Gibson "Classic 57's", "490 series" Gretsch "Filtertrons" and vintage Ibanez "Super 58's so I decided to give the Duncan "59's" a go this time. No prior experience with them but GC had them advertised as "Vintage Blues" and they were on sale. I know names don't mean a whole lot but I have to say that my Albert King stuff has never sounded better.

Ooops, I almost forgot. Add $20 for the Gretsch replacement knobs.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

BEACHBUM said:


> You bet. I definitely over paid. Just a case of live and learn I guess. Having said that if I turned around and sold the Agile today I'd be lucky to get back half of what I put into it. On the other hand the same applies to my Studio. So comparing them apples to apples we still end up in about the same place.


Put the Agile back to stock and you'll be fine. As an aside, I bought a pair of whatever pickups go into 3000 series AL's for like $30 shipped to put into something. They're just decent PAFs haha.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Budda said:


> Put the Agile back to stock and you'll be fine. As an aside, I bought a pair of whatever pickups go into 3000 series AL's for like $30 shipped to put into something. They're just decent PAFs haha.


Now that you mention it my Son in Law has a 3100 with those pickups. They're Alnico V's and sound pretty darned good. The 2500 that I bought came with ceramics and were a bit to bright and chimey for my taste.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Sometimes...


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