# Anyone Else Think Pedal Prices Are Crazy These Days?



## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

I have a few expensive pedals, but it seems like more and more the prices are nut expensive. I know the exchange rate and sales tax are big contributors, but take Kingsley for example... I bought mine used for I think $560, and another one was offered at $720. (The seller was asking new prices in lieu of the 1 year wait, I am not complaining about him. Best pedal I own probably.) Or a basic OD will be $255 + tax at L & M. I am not saying they aren't worth it from the builder's prospective, it just seems to be escalating out of control. I have a Cali76 comp, a Strymon Timeline, a Kingsley Minstrel, Some $300+ fuzz pedals etc. so I have ponied up. Just where does it end?

Yes I understand there are cheaper alternatives and some low cost gems, but it seems $500+ is becoming more and more the norm.

Just sayin'.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

No.

Either you pay $400+ for tech, or you are still in the $100-$200 range for standard pedals.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)




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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Things I don't trust not to fail with regular use: cheap pedals.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Many of those in the video are used, not new list price. I wouldn't use it as a barometer.
Sometimes, one has to defend prices, simply because the maker has to make their overhead. I won't defend HOW they acquired that overhead, but I understand the perceived need to cover it.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

mhammer said:


> Many of those in the video are used, not new list price. I wouldn't use it as a barometer.
> Sometimes, one has to defend prices, simply because the maker has to make their overhead. I won't defend HOW they acquired that overhead, but I understand the perceived need to cover it.


I am seeing the price of single pedal costing more than guitars and amps. They are becoming more than they are worth, compared to many other things. They can be costly to develop and manufacture. But how much is too much to have invested in a pedalboard? $3k? $5k?, $7k?, $10k? It would not be difficult to find 7 to 15 pedals that cost $10k.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

player99 said:


> I am seeing the price of single pedal costing more than guitars and amps. They are becoming more than they are worth, compared to many other things. They can be costly to develop and manufacture. But how much is too much to have invested in a pedalboard? $3k? $5k?, $7k?, $10k? It would not be difficult to find 7 to 15 pedals that cost $10k.


Everything is worth what someone is willing to pay.

If you don't see the value in a $500 pedal, that's fine.

Most pedals are under $700 new before taxes, across the scope of pedals.

Q: "How much is too much to have invested in a pedalboard?" A: when you can't pay your bills.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Budda said:


> Everything is worth what someone is willing to pay.
> 
> If you don't see the value in a $500 pedal, that's fine.
> 
> ...


There is a point of diminishing returns.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

player99 said:


> There is a point of diminishing returns.


And? That's true for any consumer product.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Budda said:


> Things I don't trust not to fail with regular use: cheap pedals.


But that really only matters for those of us gigging. I had my Tuner pedal start failing during a soundcheck yesterday, on the road in the middle of nowhere.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Budda said:


> And? That's true for any consumer product.


And... this supposed to be a discussion.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

All I know is that the pedals that I bought in the 80s are pretty much the same price now as they were when I bought them. Minimum wage was $4/hr.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I’m not sure where you’re shopping. Perhaps you’re only seeing what you’re interested in? There are lots of good options from just under $100 to just over $200. Maybe the question should be....why am I only interested in pedals with crazy prices?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

cboutilier said:


> But that really only matters for those of us gigging. I had my Tuner pedal start failing during a soundcheck yesterday, on the road in the middle of nowhere.


You dont have to be gigging to use a pedal often though.


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## Festus McCorkindale (Dec 17, 2017)

It is true that some pedals are too expensive given the simplicity of the technology in most cases. And that’s where quality clone pedals can really save you money. Most cities have a few good clone builders. But guitarists are notorious for wanting brand names on their headstock or pedals or whatever, me included. I’ve also spent a little more on brand name gear that I was unsure about so that I could be confident about re-selling quickly if I didn’t love it. In small markets like Winnipeg or Regina, for example, sometimes the only way to try something new is to buy it sight-unseen.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

JBFairthorne said:


> I’m not sure where you’re shopping. Perhaps you’re only seeing what you’re interested in? There are lots of good options from just under $100 to just over $200. Maybe the question should be....why am I only interested in pedals with crazy prices?


I'm interested in all the wonderful pedals. Kingsley pedals are amazing. (I guess $500-$1000+) But as I said earlier, there is a trend for cool pedals to cost way more than 1oo-200 bucks. Check out the major noisemakers from 2020 winter namn. Or the King Tone Duelist overdrive for around $500. Strymon pedals, or the HD Stomp at close to a grand.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Yes, and then look at their features and how many $100 pedals they can replace.

Do you want 10 RV-6's, daisy chains and power supplies, or one bigsky?


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I guess it depends on what you consider cool. Personally, getting something that sounds good, is easy to manipulate and dial in what I’m looking for and doesn’t break the bank is exceptionally cool.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

I agree that some pedal prices seem a bit exorbitant. But in the end if you take the under $100, $100 - $200, and $200 up categories there's still a good value depending on what you're using them for. I'm not a gigging musician now so I try really hard to keep the price of my board at a decent amount. My very reasonably priced board easily exceeds $1000 with the 2 Voodoo labs and board. There's just a LOT more options than in the past now....some much better ones at that.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Budda said:


> Yes, and then look at their features and how many $100 pedals they can replace.
> 
> Do you want 10 RV-6's, daisy chains and power supplies, or one bigsky?


I don't disagree with you on their coolness.

It's hard to have $10k invested in a pedalboard and local Ottawa gigs pay $75-$150 per man, if you can get them.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

player99 said:


> I don't disagree with you on their coolness.
> 
> It's hard to have $10k invested in a pedalboard and local Ottawa gigs pay $75-$150 per man.


Tell it to the diy tour crowd


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Budda said:


> Tell it to the diy tour crowd


? Please explain?


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

I think collectors have distorted the entire market and there’s a certain percentage of players (consumers more accurately) who don’t want to own a pedal other people have.

Ive owned tons of pedals at many different price ranges and I’ve come to the conclusion that there really only are a few basic circuits that builders use and they just add a few EQ tweaks here and there. I’ve also heard $30 knock off pedals sound better to my ear than very expensive “boutique“ pedals.

I pretty much washed my hands of the whole thing when I realized guys were getting on waitlists, with a big deposit, for a pedal they had no idea about [is it a chorus, fuzz, distortion?]. It’s really no different than spending $900 on limited edition Nikes because they’re a slightly different color.

I’m sure some of these very expensive pedals sound great, but too often “different“ is used as a synonym for “better.” I wouldn’t be opposed to buying a really expensive pedal if it sounded exactly like I wanted, but I would never try to convince anyone else it was superior or better; it would only be different.

TG


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

player99 said:


> ? Please explain?


Thousands of dollars of equipment per member to play a 20m set for $50, 15 hours away from home.


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## jimsz (Apr 17, 2009)

player99 said:


> I have a few expensive pedals, but it seems like more and more the prices are nut expensive. I know the exchange rate and sales tax are big contributors, but take Kingsley for example... I bought mine used for I think $560, and another one was offered at $720. (The seller was asking new prices in lieu of the 1 year wait, I am not complaining about him. Best pedal I own probably.) Or a basic OD will be $255 + tax at L & M. I am not saying they aren't worth it from the builder's prospective, it just seems to be escalating out of control. I have a Cali76 comp, a Strymon Timeline, a Kingsley Minstrel, Some $300+ fuzz pedals etc. so I have ponied up. Just where does it end?
> 
> Yes I understand there are cheaper alternatives and some low cost gems, but it seems $500+ is becoming more and more the norm.
> 
> Just sayin'.


In regards to Kinglsey pedals, they are not only awesome, but Simon lives about 20 minutes away from me and the cost of living here in the LM is ridiculous. He's got a fairly nice house and I believe builds everything there and ships out as opposed to having another brick and mortar outlet. Can't imagine how much more he'd have to charge if he was paying for another building.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

player99 said:


> I am seeing the price of single pedal costing more than guitars and amps. They are becoming more than they are worth, compared to many other things. They can be costly to develop and manufacture. But how much is too much to have invested in a pedalboard? $3k? $5k?, $7k?, $10k? It would not be difficult to find 7 to 15 pedals that cost $10k.


I agree. I shake my head in disbelief at some of the pedalboards I see. Not so much because of the prices that the manufacturer felt compelled to charge, but because of what the end-user has shelled out for what may not be audibly different from what would cost 1/10 the price. There is a certain degree of instagram-ativity and status associated with some kinds of purchases. Not ALL such high-end purchases, mind you, since there are some products that are truly unique on the market in terms of what they can do, and if you gotta shell out to be able to do that, then you gotta shell out. But there are also things - and here I am thinking primarily of drive pedals - where the audible differences are minimal, or even if starkly different, easily attainable with combinations of other inexpensive gear. And in so many cases, a little bit of knowledge and some skill with a soldering iron will easily achieve what is desired without much outlay, albeit without the same brag-ability.

More and more, effects are migrating to the digital domain. In some instances - for instance, all those FX relying on the Spin Semiconductor FV-1 chip or the Alesis Wavefront chips or any others that come with built-in programs - that does not result in substantial increases to production costs. In other instances, the manufacturer is trying to recoup the costs of paying a bunch of developers for 8 months of their time in working out the DSP coding, debugging, and board layout, in addition to the parts, the enclosures, machining, artwork, packaging, shipping, web-design, trips to NAMM, freebies to influencers, etc., etc. If you can sell it for $79, and know that you're going to be able to manufacture and sell truckloads of them, then you can afford to cut back on profit margin. But if it's a somewhat specialized product that you expect to not move more of than maybe 400 a month, then the profit margin is going to have to be higher if you're going to have the cash flow/credit to be able to buy/stockpile materials in advance in order to continue production. Here I refer back to my interactions with Bill Finnegan and the Klon story. Bill's circuit didn't cost an exorbitant amount in terms of the parts needed to make the Klon circuit. A little more than many, yes, but not orders of magnitude more. But the enclosures were produced in small batches and so were the PC boards. He assembled them all himself, put together the website himself, and answered all customer calls himself. And because of that there were production/order backlogs. And because there were backlogs, he had to charge what was considered an exorbitant fee (around $350) for a boost pedal to make all his overhead costs, based on how many units he could move per month on a steady basis, and have money to order another batch of boards and enclosures.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

player99 said:


> I am seeing the price of single pedal costing more than guitars and amps.


Yep. My kit is a used American Standard Tele ($1k) and used Deluxe Reverb RI ($1k). I used to jam with guys (not pros) with that much on their pedal boards. And they sounded like mud.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

I had my own business for twelve years. I worked 60 to 70 hours per week. I didn't take a day off for ten years. I was very good at it. My product was popular and well known. 

I just couldn't get the hang of charging "too much". 

I went back to welding in the oil boom. And retired in ten years from that money.

I like mhammer's klon story.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Last week I opened up my Van Amps Sole-Mate Spring Reverb. I thought I might make a rackmount unit out of the parts.

The workmanship was PERFECT. I left it alone and begged the Gear God's forgiveness for my presumption.

I can't remember the price, under $300 I think. Would I have paid $500? 

Nope.

Where is Tim now? He took "a real job to support the family."


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Doug Gifford said:


> Yep. My kit is a used American Standard Tele ($1k) and used Deluxe Reverb RI ($1k). I used to jam with guys (not pros) with that much on their pedal boards. And they sounded like mud.


Sounds like them not knowing their tools rather than their tools not being worth $1K in pedals lol


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

Budda said:


> Sounds like them not knowing their tools rather than their tools not being worth $1K in pedals lol


I do believe a lot of people underestimate the learning curve of things like pedals. They think "plug in, sound better" when it's more like "plug in, sound different" which is not at all the same thing.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Some pedals can do it, but those are generally drive pedals lol.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

Dorian2 said:


> $200 up categories there's still a good value depending on what you're using them for


When I read the first post in the thread I was thinking that it seems like a “good” pedal these days costs at least $200, a “decent but affordable” pedal is at least $150, and anything under $100 is “cheap”. That means that anything “great” is at least +$200 these days. 

I did put together a little “inexpensive” board that ended up being rather pricy. It’s easy to fall into the trap of “$150 will get me a decent tremolo, but $300 will get me a great trem & reverb!” or other instances of being tempted to spend a little more to go from good to great. But hey, if one can afford it and it brings enjoyment, then why not. You can also resell for a good chunk of what you paid new these days too. And not everything has to be great. I have a noise gate that cost me $25 new. 



jimsz said:


> In regards to Kinglsey pedals, they are not only awesome, but Simon lives about 20 minutes away from me and the cost of living here in the LM is ridiculous.


I think Kingsley is all about supply and demand. And in a lot of cases, living up to the hype and/or changing how you play, further increasing the demand. I’d rather have one Kingsley than 3 or 4 other high-end drives. So, in a way, they are more economical. Right? RIGHT??!! That’s what I keep telling myself.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Most pedals I look up are at least $255 + 13% tax from L & M.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

player99 said:


> Most pedals I look up are at least $255 + 13% tax from L & M.


 then look up the cheaper ones.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Most expensive pedal on my board was the VS/XO @ $220 on sale at L&M. I have around that mark as my highest limit. Works for me at least. Sometimes limiting yourself in one or 2 areas on the board can result in a very solid sound. I have a couple of MXR EQ's lying around doing nothing, but I occasionally throw them in the mix on the board or in the loop. I don't need a $350 EQ for that unless I actually seek one out and hear it. Then I'll derfinitely NEED that little Muther Fugger!


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## jimsz (Apr 17, 2009)

troyhead said:


> I think Kingsley is all about supply and demand. And in a lot of cases, living up to the hype and/or changing how you play, further increasing the demand. I’d rather have one Kingsley than 3 or 4 other high-end drives. So, in a way, they are more economical. Right? RIGHT??!! That’s what I keep telling myself.


I bought one Simon's Minstrel pedals (version 1) shortly after they came out and it was about $325US, and I didn't have to wait, they were in stock, now about $430US for the version 3. However, the new features added to this latest version pushed the price up $85US, which means an overall increase of only $20US, if my math is right. Not bad for about a decade.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Sounds like Kingsley has a very good rep for a reason. That would be 1 name I'd look at first if I ever decide to go that direction. I've checked a few of his pedals out on Youtube but haven't played one yet. I'm afraid of the day that happens to be honest. And it WILL happen.


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## jimsz (Apr 17, 2009)

For years, I gigged with nothing but a Minstrel pedal for OD and a TC Nova system for everything else. I got a lot of compliments on my sound, which made me realize that most folks in the crowd couldn't distinguish the sounds I was getting from the Nova compared with a pedal board full of high end pedals. Last year, I finally sold the Nova and built a new pedal board using mostly used MXR pedals under $100 (except for the MXR Reverb which was almost twice that). The sound I'm getting now is actually somewhat better than the Nova and it still sounds good to folks in the crowd. I could't justify spending the big bucks on those high end pedals. Don't need 'em.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Problem for a lot of us is that we've been chasing some "Tone" since we decided to pick up the guitar. I started when I was 15 with Randy Rhoads. I have my tone but I can also make it better. Stoopid brain. And a touch of OCD for all of us I'd imagine.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Sometimes, the price reflects the attention to roadworthiness and the little extras. A guy like Pete Cornish charges an arm and a leg for his pedals. And while they may not sound head and shoulders above things costing much less, or even any different for that matter, he builds products for pro musicians who do world tours and expect that their gear will simply just work when they get to where they're going, no matter how mistreated by baggage handlers or intoxicated roadies. When I visited with player99, we popped open his Kingsley pedal, and its _very_ well made. When I received a pair of ungooped Klon boards from Bill Finnegan, back in 2007, I found them to also be a cut above a lot of other gear in terms of build quality. So sometimes that's what you're paying for. Sometimes.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I’ve been saying it for years,., the more expensive it is, the better it sounds. Haven’t been wrong about nothin yet


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Budda said:


> then look up the cheaper ones.


You look up your ass dumb ass.


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## jimsz (Apr 17, 2009)

Dorian2 said:


> Problem for a lot of us is that we've been chasing some "Tone" since we decided to pick up the guitar. I started when I was 15 with Randy Rhoads. I have my tone but I can also make it better. Stoopid brain. And a touch of OCD for all of us I'd imagine.


Ah yes, the one topic sure to bring a wave of controversy; "Tone". I chased it as well for some time until I bought a Mack amp. I had several email conversations with Don who said that he built his amps to specifically do little more else than emulate whatever the pickups were doing, so that ones tone (mechanically) would be whatever the quality and type of pickup was in the guitar. From there, it was all about finding good quality pickups that I liked. My first set came from Jon Moore when I commissioned him to build me a loaded pickguard for my Strat. From that point on, I stopped chasing tone and just started buying good quality pickups.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

player99 said:


> You look up your ass dumb ass.


Seriously!!??


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

player99 said:


> You look up your ass dumb ass.


Great discussion, keep it up.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

jimsz said:


> Ah yes, the one topic sure to bring a wave of controversy; "Tone". I chased it as well for some time until I bought a Mack amp. I had several email conversations with Don who said that he built his amps to specifically do little more else than emulate whatever the pickups were doing, so that ones tone (mechanically) would be whatever the quality and type of pickup was in the guitar. From there, it was all about finding good quality pickups that I liked. My first set came from Jon Moore when I commissioned him to build me a loaded pickguard for my Strat. From that point on, I stopped chasing tone and just started buying good quality pickups.


Yup. Pickups are part of it too. I've done that as well. Have a Mod'd Blues Junior 3 as well. It doesn't stop. It's like a nagging voice that won't let up.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I bought 3 pedals in the last 6 months or so and they all had to go back: Santa Ana OD was messed up bad made a lot of hum and would just go dead; Wampler Crossroads hissed like a snake and One Control 2 Loop Switcher made a pop like a .38 every time I hit the switch. Ended up getting an OCD and a cheap 1 loop switcher that works fine. The Fender and the Wampler weren't exactly cheap and I just got lucky with 3 duds in a row but for that kind of money the bastards should work properly.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Budda said:


> Great discussion, keep it up.


Thank you.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

Budda said:


> then look up the cheaper ones.


@player99 To get to the question in your original post, I think pedal prices are getting *crazy expensive* but also *crazy cheap*. It is certainly a golden age of pedals, where the choices are plentiful. In some ways, that drives down prices. Offshore manufacturing also drives down the prices. But on the other end, there is an appreciation for craftsmanship, uniqueness, and design where high-end pedal makers can also thrive.

There is also some middle ground where pedals that were more expensive to make are now less expensive due to economies of scale and streamlined processes. Costly pedals are often great, but one is missing out if they simply overlook other great pedals that are less expensive.

My $25 noise gate feels surprisingly well made, and it doesn't seem to colour my tone at all. I bought it just to silence single-coil hum when not playing, so I will either need turn it on for a performance if using single coils or turn it off... it's not constantly being stomped on. It is nestled in the middle of my board surrounded by more robust pedals, so I think it will be okay. And so my crazy cheap noise gate sits comfortably beside by crazy expensive Kingsley, working together to make for a crazy happy guitar player.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Budda said:


> You dont have to be gigging to use a pedal often though.


That is true, but a pedal failure at home is usually just an annoyance and inconvenience. A pedal failure on stage can be quite a disruption or trainwreck. A failure in the studio can also be quite shitty


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

When the pedal builders* convinced guitar players that a new pedal will do more to improve their tone than 3 hours of practice, the pedal builders won. 

It was a good battle while it lasted, though.




*Truth be told, it wasn't the pedal builders at all. It was the internet and sites like this and TGP. The pedal builders just went along with it, feeling like they'd just scratched one of those '$1000/day for life' tickets. It's called capitalism - look it up.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Seriously thinking about a Boss GT-001 as it seems like a lot of bang for the buck and looks like it would be convenient for home/studio use. It seems to be a credible way around the pedal black hole.

https://www.boss.info/ca/products/gt-001/

(For years I had a shitload of pedals on two home made pedal boards that plugged into each other (for ease of carrying), but every time something malfunctioned it triggered my weird variant of OCD which meant days of reorganizing the things. Some self imposed economy reduced everything to one board and a multi-fx unit, and finally to a multi and a couple of additional pedals. The evolution was kind of weird...discovering a Boss ME-80 was all I needed because amp distortion and reverb is ultimately my thing and FX was basically gig driven rather than personal taste. It ends up that I like the Boss modulation stuff so all the money I spent on stand alone pedals was more or less for nought except as an experiment.)


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

High/Deaf said:


> When the pedal builders* convinced guitar players that a new pedal will do more to improve their tone than 3 hours of practice, the pedal builders won.


Um, you just explained why I buy pedals... I try to make up for my lack of skill with great tone. 

I know for some people, music is their job and guitars and gear are the tools of their trade. But I'm like an incompetent handyman who wants the pro-grade drill with all the bells and whistles, even though I couldn't made an Ikea table that is straight. But having the best tools makes it more fun.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

All my pedals are 35 + years old... so don't know how to answer this thread... 

None of my pedals ever cost me more then 120$ ...


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

Frenchy99 said:


> All my pedals are 35 + years old... so don't know how to answer this thread...
> 
> None of my pedals ever cost me more then 120$ ...


According to the Bank of Canada inflation calculator, that means you paid no more than $255.35 in today's dollars for your pedals. Given that in 1985 there wasn't much of a high-end pedal market, and most pedals probably did not have multiple functions as many of today's pedals do, it would seem that pedals have kept up with inflation, and in some cases, become relatively less expensive.


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

Good topic!

It is great that there are so many choices and price points for the "established (analog)" pedal circuits. Consider the Big Muff or TS9, you can buy a sonic equivalent for around $50. I feel bad for the original "designers". S. Tamura and Mike Mathews, they would be millionaires if they received royalties on every off-brand copy/variation produced.

That said, these designs were built to be successful in the 70's market and obviously, they did the job right! The circuit controls were basic, keeping manufacturing costs low and retail prices reasonable.

Once you have a product or idea that is "good", inevitably "better" enters the equation. Essentially, "better" costs more. Why? Research, fine tuning, overhead etc. Some circuits are quite forgiving when it comes to "fine tuning", others require dedicated and extensive exploration to grasp the subjective details. Plenty of middle ground on this spectrum...

Beyond adding an "option switch" or mod/upgrade to an "established" pedal design (boutique?), there are designers that actually use their ears and design beyond the "established" circuits. No restraint on options. It is the logical progression from a designer's perspective. It can take a surprising amount of time on the design end and actual production/marketing of a retail product is a significant commitment/risk. An expensive, time consuming endeavor.

I am fascinated by people like David Main (*D*A*M*), Trombetta, John Lyons (Basic Audio) etc. IMO, These are the kind of builders that "fine tune" and tweak with a greater sonic purpose in mind, standing on the shoulders of those who blazed the trail. They have managed to stand out in a very congested marketplace over the long haul. Why? Thoughtful attention to detail and small run production. Their pedals sound killer! You pay for that...

More and more I appreciate that great tone is a result of a simplified signal path (not to say I am a purist by any means...). When I plug a decent electric guitar straight in to my Princeton Reverb, it is a whole world of fantastic tone. A pedal has to improve on that. The PR tends to make most pedals sound good, so the real question is "does it sound fantastic?" Don't lose sight of the big picture.

A pedals price isn't a guarantee of great tone, a simple 1 transistor/1 knob booster can kick some serious ass. Honestly, for most players, "good enough" tone is all they will ever need.

These days it is all too easy to have three dirt pedals on your board, lots of stacking options. Does they sound better than one Kingsley pedal?


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## MarkM (May 23, 2019)

Frenchy99 said:


> All my pedals are 35 + years old... so don't know how to answer this thread...
> 
> None of my pedals ever cost me more then 120$ ...


I have the same issue, some are newer but not by much.

I make way more money at my day job than I ever did as a musician, my bar tab was usally more?

Those that pay the bills with their playing are different than me.


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## MarkM (May 23, 2019)

player99 said:


> You look up your ass dumb ass.


I haven't been here long but that seems out of character for you?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

MarkM said:


> I haven't been here long but that seems out of character for you?


nope, it’s right in his wheelhouse. in fact, he’s chilled a bit since joining. I suspect he may be slightly bipolar


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## MarkM (May 23, 2019)

Ironically i would expect that from you! Lol


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

MarkM said:


> Ironically i would expect that from you! Lol


....then I'm playing my cards correctly


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

MarkM said:


> I haven't been here long but that seems out of character for you?


I get the feeling he is being an obscurantist with me here and in other threads. I have been wrong before, and if so, I was out of line.



vadsy said:


> nope, it’s right in his wheelhouse. in fact, he’s chilled a bit since joining. I suspect he may be slightly bipolar


I do like the guy, and perhaps I went too far. For this I humbly apologize to Budda. @Budda I am sorry for being rude to you. Please accept my apology.


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## keefsdad (Feb 7, 2006)

I don't think I've ever paid more than $100 for a pedal. My favourite overdrive is a Caline Orangeburst that cost 30.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

keefsdad said:


> I don't think I've ever paid more than $100 for a pedal. My favourite overdrive is a Caline Orangeburst that cost 30.


The first big purchased pedal other than effects processors for me was the Timeline. Then after that things went south.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I have noticed use pedal prices seem to be increasing as well.
Expect if I want to sell mine.


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## Joel Poirier (Dec 5, 2019)

troyhead said:


> Um, you just explained why I buy pedals... I try to make up for my lack of skill with great tone.
> 
> I know for some people, music is their job and guitars and gear are the tools of their trade. But I'm like an incompetent handyman who wants the pro-grade drill with all the bells and whistles, even though I couldn't made an Ikea table that is straight. But having the best tools makes it more fun.


Exactly the same here, I might not be a great guitar player but I want to sound great trying to become one...


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

One of the difficulties currently faced by both consumers, reviewers, manufacturers, and aspiring manufacturers is that there not only too much product out there, but too much information about all that product. You get the occasional true innovator (which seems to be increasingly in the digital domain), but there are a whole lotta folks making things that are near identical to something else, but they don't realize it, and reviewers are not going to say pedal X is pretty much the same as pedal Y and Z. 

If there are 5 fast food chains that all have hamburgers as their focal product, it's easy for me to compare them, what I like about each, their prices and such, and they will make efforts to be competitive in either price, quality, or other features, because it is easy to do that comparison. If there were 50 hamburger chains, I'd likely just go to the one closest, or that I'm familiar with most, _because_ comparison, and even _knowing_ about all those other chains, is simply hard to do. And most of those chains would have a hard time figuring out how to distinguish themselves.

In the pedal world, we do have, as noted by others, an explosion of copycat stuff in the mini-pedal family for under $50, and also a surfeit of stuff in the $250+ range. How different in sound, features, and build quality is the one from the other? It's rare that we ever get to find out. The bricks and mortar retailers that sell you the one often don't sell you the other, and the Youtube demos are of precious little help, since EVERYTHING sounds fabulous on Youtube.

I'd like to sell some of the pedals I've made, but how do I price them? Few people know my work firsthand, so all they can really think is that they could get something similar, if not identical, for under $50, and maybe even _well_ under $50. At $50, my build time amounts to about $3/hr, after parts are factored into cost. But that wouldn't be a persuasive argument. So let's say I charge minimum wage for my time. I'd have to charge about $180 per pedal ([email protected]$14/hr, plus parts), and who would want to pay that for something that didn't have a brand name, CSA sticker, and the like, and be returnable? How would they be able to discern whether it was a "good deal on a decent pedal"? It's not like there's _only_ 4 other comparables out there.

Some things that are fast and easy to mass-produce may have extensive development costs. E.g., local hero Steve Bragg worked on the development of the Zoia for over 2-1/2 years before releasing it. Safe to assume he deserves some compensation for that time investment. And as a niche product, the $650 price tag is reasonable, even if it is prohibitive, to cover all that development time, on top of the actual physical production costs.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Except he has a "name" and track record, reviews, and such. I'm not trying to start a business. But I appreciate the support.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

player99 said:


> He started once upon a time. You are more established than you think. If you want to sell some MHammer Pedals for what reasonable crafters sell them for, you would have no trouble.


So when the guy who has helped big name brands with their issues says "I would have trouble selling my work", you think he's just making it up? Especially when he explains why?


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

With all the choice out there today you'd think demand would be outstripped by supply. I mean, just search "overdrive" on any website and you'll get 30 or more choices of tubescreamer derivatives... I keep waiting for market forces to drive prices down, but it seems that people are willing to pay 200-500 bucks for a pedal these days.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I think prices for a lot of things are crazy these days.

Other than pointing out the obvious reality that things are worth what people are willing to pay for them, no, a boutique overdrive pedal is not worth $500. to me, but as I’m confident I can get an almost identical result from pedals costing $100~$200 it’s of no consequence.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

mrmatt1972 said:


> With all the choice out there today you'd think demand would be outstripped by supply. I mean, just search "overdrive" on any website and you'll get 30 or more choices of tubescreamer derivatives... I keep waiting for market forces to drive prices down, but it seems that people are willing to pay 200-500 bucks for a pedal these days.


Like I say, the glut of product makes it more difficult to do the sort of comparison that could push prices down, or at least discourage the glut. It is far too easy to start a "pedal company" these days. The constant onslaught of things that are supposed to be "new" (but are really old designs with a mod here or there), and the manner in which the internet and Youtube transform something, which could be legitimate if a local product, into an international product with international demand, makes for difficult consumer choices, and difficulty in assessing value-for-money.

This is one of the reasons why I make an effort to encourage folks to understand pedal design and get into DIY. You don't have to make _everything_ from scratch, but sometimes the difference between what you have on your board now, and some new pricey pedal you're jonesing for is a simple and feasible mod and $1 worth of parts. As Bonnie Raitt sang, though, you got to know how.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I think he’s saying you shouldn’t argue with someone when they say that they’re not able, prepared or willing to do a particular thing. Who do you think knows what’s best for anyone? You or they themselves?


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

*facepalm*


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Look, fellas, I have fun tinkering away, and get satisfaction from seeing others use things I've made in a productive way. But I'm no businessman. I certainly _understand_ many precepts of an effective business, and why some businesses stumble, but it's one thing to understand something, and quite another to want to BE that thing/person. Having said that, when the annual guitar show that Darwin Demers organizes for early spring happens, I'm going to bring a bunch of my own designs, and no clones of anything, and see how that goes, instead of bringing a mountain of modded clones that have to be explained to too many people. Forum member amagras has generously volunteered to demo them while I chat up prospective customers, and show organizer Darwin will certainly vouch for pedals I've made for him that remain on his pedalboard. Still have to think about pricing. Difficult to do when one is vying against known vintage/commercial pedals that may be going for very modest prices from the vendors there. Personal connections with people certainly count for something, but most of the people at the show don't know me from a hole in the ground. But that's MY problem and not the focus of the thread.

And just for the record, Justin/Budda has been to "the garage", with his brother in tow, and I made a pedal for his fellow bandmate as well. Next time he passes through town, I hope to have him drop by again. I don't think he'd have a negative word to say.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

mhammer said:


> ... Still have to think about pricing. ...


Aim high. And tell people that the current wait list for finished product is six months. That should put demand through the roof.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I have an invite to the studio from Phil Bova, when John Fraser Findlay comes by to record later this month. I'll be sure to cart in a stack of toys. Maybe with a little luck and exposure I get to be the Canadian Pete Cornish. But I doubt I'd ever charge his prices.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

A bunch of deleted messages from @player99 

I’m a little disappointed I missed them. I can only imagine...


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

@mhammer , thanks for great insight into the pedal world and such. Sometimes it's easy to overlook the human equation of pedal builders and the time and money involved in producing an in demand and reputable "item" that people use for sound. I'd also imagine that having one of the youtubers that does a good job of showing off various pedals would be fairly cost prohibitive. But maybe not. Would suggesting hitting up someone like Pete Thorn be a bad idear?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Aww, Richard's alright. He's a lot friendlier than some posts might suggest.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Dorian2 said:


> @mhammer , thanks for great insight into the pedal world and such. Sometimes it's easy to overlook the human equation of pedal builders and the time and money involved in producing an in demand and reputable "item" that people use for sound. I'd also imagine that having one of the youtubers that does a good job of showing off various pedals would be fairly cost prohibitive. But maybe not. Would suggesting hitting up someone like Pete Thorn be a bad idear?


Thanks for the support, but that's a little higher profile than my stuff warrants. If I do manage to get a pass to attend this summer's NAMM show, I will certainly bring some gifts for Dan & Mick from _That Pedal Show_, who say they also hope to attend.


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## reckless toboggan (Mar 9, 2019)

1. Build a pedal with two high quality jacks directly connected to each other with high quality braided cloth covered bespoke wire.

1a. It must have a footswitch and no less than 2 but no more than 3 knobs, all of which aren't actually connected to anything.

2. Fill the entirety of the inside of the pedal box with goop.

3. Call the pedal "transparent", have a 18 month waitlist, and charge $485.00

4. Profit!!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Wonder why a bunch of posts got deleted?


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## reckless toboggan (Mar 9, 2019)

The posts were true bypass.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Budda said:


> Wonder why a bunch of posts got deleted?


If second thoughts could be first thoughts instead, the world would be a much different place.


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## reckless toboggan (Mar 9, 2019)

reckless toboggan said:


> The posts were true bypass.


On second thought, they were buffered.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

How do you delete a post?


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

It seems encouraging Mark brought the ire of a few members so I just scrubbed the whole thing.


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## reckless toboggan (Mar 9, 2019)

They were gooped?


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

reckless toboggan said:


> They were gooped?


Rope a doped.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

mhammer said:


> If second thoughts could be first thoughts instead, the world would be a much different place.


How do you know they aren't?


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## reckless toboggan (Mar 9, 2019)

player99 said:


> Rope a doped.


I've never heard of them! They must be soooo boutique! I bet their pedals are incredible!

RopeADopedFx.com?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Doug Gifford said:


> How do you know they aren't?


Second thoughts are generally less biased, more considerate and thoughtful than first ones. See Daniel Kahneman's work.


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## Spinedriver (Mar 19, 2016)

It's like that with everything, really. Burger King is cheaper than small restaurants, Wal Mart is cheaper than independant stores, etc.. Like others have said, people that build amps/pedals, etc.. in their own shop have to charge more in order to make it worth their while (unless of course they are just doing it as a hobby), whereas with companies like Boss, TC/Behringer, etc... they have the resources to sell pedals quite cheaply.

In the end though, it's all about doing your homework. Some people that have the expendable income just want 'top of the line' gear regardless of what it does. Sometimes, people actually do need some of the modes that high end pedals like the Big Sky or Eventide Space offer because there aren't any 'budget' pedals that have it. On the other hand, when it comes to drive pedals, a lot of times cheaper pedals like Mooer, Electro Harmonix, etc... can sound every bit as good as a 'handbuilt' version that can cost several hundred dollars more. When you see a board with nothing but Free The Tone and Strymon pedals on it, you know they have money to burn. When someone has one or two of them along with a selection of MXR/Mooer/Boss, etc... then it's much more likely that they are probably getting what sounds best to them and fits their budget.

I know personally, when I look at pedals, there are a number of variables. There's what it actually does, how much it costs, can I buy it locally vs having to buy it online, what do reviewers have to say about it, etc... 

I guess that's why companies like Joyo, Mooer, TC, etc.. are gaining popularity, pretty decent effects at a very affordable price.


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## MarkM (May 23, 2019)

The only point I think you missed Spinedriver is professional musicians count on their gear to be quiet , reliable and might need to spend more money on it. If they are in a studio that costs $? / hr and someone is paying for that and their talent it better be good.

If my cheap pedal shits the bed when I'm jamming with my bro or playing with myself it is no big thing!

Professional mechanics use snap on, I use mastercraft.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Different kinds of parts at different quality levels can also require different amounts of labour costs. Cheap PC-mount pots that can be wave-soldered by machine require less labour than more costly pots needing to be hand-soldered and wired up. Same thing for switching. More durable Carling stompswitches do not lend themselves to PCB-mount and wave soldering like the more familiar-and-cheaper 3PDT switches. It becomes not _just_ the extra cost of the parts - which may only add a few dollars at most to materials-cost - but the additional cost of the labour to install them.

Look at gutshots of Pete Cornish's pedals. A LOT of wire connections in there, as opposed to letting the PCB do all the work. All the wires are grouped and bundled with cable ties. The grouping and bundling takes more time, and the time = money.

But all of that is about high-end pro gear vs. consumer-level stuff. Richard's original query was regarding drift towards higher prices.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

mhammer said:


> Different kinds of parts at different quality levels can also require different amounts of labour costs. Cheap PC-mount pots that can be wave-soldered by machine require less labour than more costly pots needing to be hand-soldered and wired up. Same thing for switching. More durable Carling stompswitches do not lend themselves to PCB-mount and wave soldering like the more familiar-and-cheaper 3PDT switches. It becomes not _just_ the extra cost of the parts - which may only add a few dollars at most to materials-cost - but the additional cost of the labour to install them.
> 
> Look at gutshots of Pete Cornish's pedals. A LOT of wire connections in there, as opposed to letting the PCB do all the work. All the wires are grouped and bundled with cable ties. The grouping and bundling takes more time, and the time = money.
> 
> But all of that is about high-end pro gear vs. consumer-level stuff. Richard's original query was regarding drift towards higher prices.


The difference between low priced pedals and high priced pedals is an important part of the equation. There are some high priced pedals that are justified due to design, components and assembly costs, while other high priced pedals have been everything from modified tube screamers to out and out fraudulent rehousings.


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## Nork (Mar 27, 2010)

mhammer said:


> And just for the record, Justin/Budda has been to "the garage", with his brother in tow, and I made a pedal for his fellow bandmate as well. Next time he passes through town, I hope to have him drop by again. I don't think he'd have a negative word to say.


That garage was great. I still appreciate the time spent with my Timmy and all the chips in and out.

I bought my Timmy after talking to Paul because straight from him was 130$. It's a v2. I've seen the resale on it now and it's craziness! 

I think to certain degree it's what the market will bear.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Thanks for the nod, and nice to hear from you. I was wondering where you went.
Paul Cochrane has been very generous, so I'm pleased that he probably scored himself some money, and blessed relief, by contracting with Dunlop.


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## Nork (Mar 27, 2010)

mhammer said:


> Thanks for the nod, and nice to hear from you. I was wondering where you went.
> Paul Cochrane has been very generous, so I'm pleased that he probably scored himself some money, and blessed relief, by contracting with Dunlop.


Stopped playing a lot for a while. Have moved since and done some gear swaps! 

Yea I saw that. Hopefully he gets some relief. Things sounded tough for him there for a bit.


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