# H1N1 Vaccine - Yes or No?



## GuitarsCanada

Much controversy surrounding this. Bad information? Confusing to say the least. Will you be getting the vaccine? Vote on the poll


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## Fader

http://news.globaltv.com/There+been+plenty+hype+about+H1N1+virus/2099938/story.html

Hmmm.


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## mrmatt1972

No because there is almost no risk of fatality to me (given my age, health and proximity to health services) and little risk of serious illness even if I catch the virus (due to my gender apparently). There is a far greater risk of reaction to the vaccine than there is to actually getting the H1N1 virus. 

In my opinion this drive for mass vaccination against H1N1 (and the crap shoot that is the regular flu vaccine for that matter) is a needless and senseless initiative driven by fear, PR and drug company pressure on government.

If we're going to pay tax dollars to vaccinate people it should only be people in "at risk" groups.

Matt


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## GuitarsCanada

I just read this big article about it on Macleans and they go over the myth and then reality. According to the reality section everyone should get it. Most every medical body around the world is recommending it for everyone (some groups are different ie pregnant or some serious medical conditions). They also state that unlike most flu's that the prime target group for this one is females in their 30's.

Hard to know what to do really. I will say that over the past few weeks I have noticed a lot of people coming into our shop hacking up lungs. Marnie went home today with a sore throat and light headed. I do not suspect that it's H1N1 but a lot of people are coming down with colds/flu right now.


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## mrmatt1972

GuitarsCanada said:


> Most every medical body around the world is recommending it for everyone


To me, and maybe I'm cynical or paranoid, that's pretty much the same as Fender recommending Fender strings for all Strat owners. Or cigarette companies denying that there are health risks associated with their products. 

What I'm trying to say is that vested interests (medical establishments and the drug companies that run them) will do and say anything to defend their income and/or generate more. The H1N1 vaccine is an example of this all to human behaviour.


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## shoretyus

No... I work by myself. I don't get the regular shots either and am sick very little.


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## al3d

shoretyus said:


> No... I work by myself. I don't get the regular shots either and am sick very little.


Same here..AND the Vacine is not properly tested enough, the after effects are'nt documented..so BIG NO for me


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## cheezyridr

GuitarsCanada said:


> I just read this big article about it on Macleans and they go over the myth and then reality.


that's pretty funny. you might as well consult the weekly world news for all the truth and unbiased journalism you'd get from macleans. 

i decided i don't want the vaccine because 

A) the cure was released a full 2 weeks before the outbreak. 

B) the lab that created it is in the same mexican town where the outbreak started. 

C) the world health organization has drawn up plans to use the army, if neccessary, to force people to take the vaccine in the event of a major outbreak. 

i don't want anything i might later be force to take at gunpoint. especially when it contains these ingredients:

aluminum hydroxide 
aluminum phosphate
ammonium sulfate
amphotericin B
animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain, 
dog kidney, monkey kidney, 
chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
calf (bovine) serum
betapropiolactone
fetal bovine serum
formaldehyde
formalin 
gelatin 
glycerol
human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
hydrolized gelatin 
monosodium glutamate (MSG)
neomycin
neomycin sulfate
phenol red indicator
phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
potassium diphosphate
potassium monophosphate
polymyxin B
polysorbate 20
polysorbate 80
porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
residual MRC5 proteins
sorbitol 
sucrose
thimerosal (mercury)
tributylphosphat e,
VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells
washed sheep red blood cells

i read somewhere else that one of the cocktails also contains non active cancer cells. you wanna have any of the above runnin around in your body?


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## vds5000

al3d said:


> Same here..AND the Vacine is not properly tested enough, the after effects are'nt documented..so BIG NO for me


Enjoy this moment - it won't happen often - but I agree with you 100%. Just to add:

- there are chemicals in the vaccine that have been proven to be harmful to humans
- thousands of individuals die from the regular flu every year - point being - this isn't the first strain of the flu that has killed
- I believe I read a few weeks ago that swine flu, or a variation of it came out about 35 years ago in the US. I believe it was first discovered in a group of individuals in the US Military. The vaccine against it back then hurt more people than the flu itself. I don't remember the exact details, but the US Gov made the vaccine mandatory - millions had taken it before it was realized that the vaccine did serious harm to a crapload of those individuals. Once this was realized, they stopped administering the vaccine. I'm sure the info can be found if you spend a few minutes on google.


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## GuitarsCanada

cheezyridr said:


> that's pretty funny. you might as well consult the weekly world news for all the truth and unbiased journalism you'd get from macleans.
> 
> i decided i don't want the vaccine because
> 
> A) the cure was released a full 2 weeks before the outbreak.
> 
> B) the lab that created it is in the same mexican town where the outbreak started.
> 
> C) the world health organization has drawn up plans to use the army, if neccessary, to force people to take the vaccine in the event of a major outbreak.
> 
> i don't want anything i might later be force to take at gunpoint. especially when it contains these ingredients:
> 
> aluminum hydroxide
> aluminum phosphate
> ammonium sulfate
> amphotericin B
> animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain,
> dog kidney, monkey kidney,
> chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
> calf (bovine) serum
> betapropiolactone
> fetal bovine serum
> formaldehyde
> formalin
> gelatin
> glycerol
> human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
> hydrolized gelatin
> monosodium glutamate (MSG)
> neomycin
> neomycin sulfate
> phenol red indicator
> phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
> potassium diphosphate
> potassium monophosphate
> polymyxin B
> polysorbate 20
> polysorbate 80
> porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
> residual MRC5 proteins
> sorbitol
> sucrose
> thimerosal (mercury)
> tributylphosphat e,
> VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells
> washed sheep red blood cells
> 
> i read somewhere else that one of the cocktails also contains non active cancer cells. you wanna have any of the above runnin around in your body?


An ugly list. I am not sure listing all the ingredients is relevant to the problem. If you list all the ingredients in a hot dog you would never eat one again. There are many pro's and con's to flu vaccine's. This one is a bit different in that it will contain the adjuvant (antifreeze) where apparently, no other flu vaccine in Canada has ever contained a adjuvant. But I would agree that the information given out to date boggles the mind.


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## Robert1950

I have had flu shots every year since 1994. No problem here. When you come into contact with the people I do, the benefits outweigh the risks.


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## keeperofthegood

Robert1950 said:


> I have had flu shots every year since 1994. No problem here. When you come into contact with the people I do, the benefits outweigh the risks.


I've only missed a couple years myself, and yes, the benefits do outweigh the risks with the run-of-the-mill shots.

This summer, myself, my missus, and both my kids had what could be called a super mild flu for a week or two. Sure felt like the flu in retrospect. I think the odds are very good we have already had this particular flu and are thus naturally protected.

However, I do agree, somehow this one shot seems to be rather different. There is something someone isn't saying, and when the media that reports the news on how bad the flu is, is in turn owned by the company that sells the supplies and vaccines I have to really wonder.

I am more convinced than ever now though, that susceptibility to flu induced death is more a genetic marker than anything else, and even though the vaccine may help prevent the general spread of the flu virus, it would do nothing to prevent the susceptibility for those with that marker. 

Yes, I will get the regular run of the mill shots; sadly this H1N1 is not on the happy radar front.


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## Luke98

I'm unsure of whether I'll get the shot or not, probably, seeing as they'll be giving them out in school, but I'm not keen on getting blast after blast of drug cocktails for illnesses I probably won't suffer much from. I got my Measles, Mumps, and Rubella booster today in school, and am more likely to be sick from the side effects than from those ailments. But Measles, mumps or Rubella would sure suck to have.

Expect fever and nausea for the next 5-10 days.


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## bagpipe

Put on your tinfoil hat - they're out to get you!:


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## cheezyridr

just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're _not_ out to get you


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## Big_Daddy

Absolutely not! Not me or my family. Ever.


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## Fader

Here's couple links if you're sitting on the fence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DT7oTQyJjZ0

http://www.naturalnews.com/027231_Vitamin_D_immune_system_vaccines.html

From this week's Unfiltered News;

REPORTS: LARGE NUMBERS FALLING ILL FROM FLU-MIST NASAL SPRAY
2009 Oct 10 from David Lowe
I live in Wichita, KS, and my mother-in-law works as a medical transcriptionist from her home. There are several elderly ladies who work for this medical transcription service, which receives recorded audio and written notes from doctors and patients and transcribes them into patient history files.

I was just informed by my mother-in-law that her co-workers at this medical transcription service are greatly alarmed at the number of people who are being admitted into local hospitals in the last few days because they went to get immunized with the nasal form of the flu vaccine, FluMist.

They are coming in greatly ill and in large numbers. This, of course, is receiving zero local news attention. There are news stories that emergency rooms are very busy, but they report that it is because of the flu, not because these people have in common that they received FluMist.


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## Jim DaddyO

I have never gotten a flu vaccine, and won't be getting this one either. Getting anything, and getting over it builds your immune system, and keeps it on guard. What ever doesn't kill you makes you stronger theory. If it does get me? That's life, in the long run, no one gets out of it alive!


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## Robert1950

Nothing works perfectly. I know someone who lost a child due to an adverse reaction to vaccination - I think it was the measles vaccine - in the 80s. It wasn't an allergic reaction either. But that number is less than the number who died from complications due to the disease. The same for seat belts. I don't know the exact number, but (for example) for every 100 lives saved by seat belts, there is that one who gets killed because they happened to be wearing one.


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## GuitarsCanada

Fairly even on the poll.


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## lbrown1

never had a flu shot - never will......unless the army forced me too :-0


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## mhammer

You know, the very LAST thing that public health officials at *any* level - municipal/regional, provincial, or federal - want is a rush on the health care system brought on by either influenza OR any potential side-effects of a vaccine. They know that there are not enough doctors and nurses, that hospitals are overcrowded, and that more infected people make for more additional infected people. So why the hell would they action for anything that increased potential burden on health care rather than reducing it? And why would governments whose budgets are already overstretched be willing to shell out for broad-scale public vaccination if it was likely to have deleterious effects to public health or the economy? Think about it.

Are there companies who stand to make money off the potential pandemic? Sure, just as there are companies who make money off post-hurricane reconstruction, floods, tsunamis, snowstorm-of-the-century, etc., climate change, breast cancer, Alzheimers, and A.I.D.S. But before one dives into paranoid conspiracy theories, these companies do not drive public health policy. Epidemiological and actuarial data does. Certainly, epidemiologists, much like economists and bookies, can sometimes be wrong with respect to the specs of their probability model, but then what is the alternative, and why the hell do we actually HAVE advanced epidemiology and actuarial science training programs if the models are so _consistently_ "wrong"? At a certain point, you have to trust people who have been extensively trained, and have investigated all the pros and cons that one might conceivably know about. Maybe the politicians might make the announcements, but they do so on the basis of their senior scientific advisors recommendations, and the advisor makes those recommendations on the basis of what a team of highly trained people has briefed them about after an extensive review of the data.

I will state yet one more time that one of the most useful courses anyone will ever take at university is a course in probability and statistics. Far too many public panics are sparked by misunderstandings of relative risk. We avoid things like vaccinations that have a one in ten thousand risk of having deleterious (but remediable), yet are content to invest ourselves heavily into things like lotteries which have a one-in-billions chance of every going our way (yes, I know there may be several million tickets sold each, but work out the probability of winning for someone who puts $5 into the pot for every single draw all year long).


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## GuitarsCanada

mhammer said:


> You know, the very LAST thing that public health officials at *any* level - municipal/regional, provincial, or federal - want is a rush on the health care system brought on by either influenza OR any potential side-effects of a vaccine. They know that there are not enough doctors and nurses, that hospitals are overcrowded, and that more infected people make for more additional infected people. So why the hell would they action for anything that increased potential burden on health care rather than reducing it? And why would governments whose budgets are already overstretched be willing to shell out for broad-scale public vaccination if it was likely to have deleterious effects to public health or the economy?
> 
> Are there companies who stand to make money off the potential pandemic? Sure, just as there are companies who make money off post-hurricane reconstruction, floods, tsunamis, snowstorm-of-the-century, etc., and breast cancer and A.I.D.S. But these companies do not drive public health policy. Epidemiological and actuarial data does.
> 
> I will state yet one more time that one of the most useful courses anyone will ever take at university is a course in probability and statistics. Far too many public panics are sparked by misunderstandings of relative risk. We avoid things like vaccinations that have a one in ten thousand risk of having deleterious (but remediable), yet are content to invest ourselves heavily into things like lotteries which have a one-in-billions chance of every going our way (yes, I know there may be several million tickets sold each, but work out the probability of winning for someone who puts $5 into the pot for every single draw all year long).


I have taken a lot of stats courses over the years, even from the great Deming himself. I try to utilize that training all the time. I dont play lotteries or slots for that very reason. 

This is clearly a gamble as well. What are the odds?


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## RAW1

Trouble is when your are that 1 in 100,000 who gets some rare neurological disorder,you tend to look at things a little differently.As a famous Neuro Dr said to me,the flu shot is bad for the individual but good for the group.


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## GuitarsCanada

RAW1 said:


> Trouble is when your are that 1 in 100,000 who gets some rare neurological disorder,you tend to look at things a little differently.As a famous Neuro Dr said to me,the flu shot is bad for the individual but good for the group.


Spock once said that "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one"


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## vds5000

mhammer said:


> You know, the very LAST thing that public health officials at *any* level - municipal/regional, provincial, or federal - want is a rush on the health care system brought on by either influenza OR any potential side-effects of a vaccine. They know that there are not enough doctors and nurses, that hospitals are overcrowded, and that more infected people make for more additional infected people. So why the hell would they action for anything that increased potential burden on health care rather than reducing it? And why would governments whose budgets are already overstretched be willing to shell out for broad-scale public vaccination if it was likely to have deleterious effects to public health or the economy? Think about it.


Do people in the medical profession always do what's best for people? Hmm, there is a big shortage of doctors in the Niagara region - why? Money.




mhammer said:


> Are there companies who stand to make money off the potential pandemic? Sure, just as there are companies who make money off post-hurricane reconstruction, floods, tsunamis, snowstorm-of-the-century, etc., climate change, breast cancer, Alzheimers, and A.I.D.S. But before one dives into paranoid conspiracy theories, these companies do not drive public health policy. Epidemiological and actuarial data does. Certainly, epidemiologists, much like economists and bookies, can sometimes be wrong with respect to the specs of their probability model, but then what is the alternative, and why the hell do we actually HAVE advanced epidemiology and actuarial science training programs if the models are so _consistently_ "wrong"? At a certain point, you have to trust people who have been extensively trained, and have investigated all the pros and cons that one might conceivably know about. Maybe the politicians might make the announcements, but they do so on the basis of their senior scientific advisors recommendations, and the advisor makes those recommendations on the basis of what a team of highly trained people has briefed them about after an extensive review of the data.


Money



mhammer said:


> I will state yet one more time that one of the most useful courses anyone will ever take at university is a course in probability and statistics. Far too many public panics are sparked by misunderstandings of relative risk. We avoid things like vaccinations that have a one in ten thousand risk of having deleterious (but remediable), yet are content to invest ourselves heavily into things like lotteries which have a one-in-billions chance of every going our way (yes, I know there may be several million tickets sold each, but work out the probability of winning for someone who puts $5 into the pot for every single draw all year long).


Fortunately, I have taken a course or two in Probability. As a matter of fact, I've taken 8 courses in Statistics while obtaining my Honours Mathematics designation from the University of Waterloo. This included a Minor in Statistics. You cannot apply 'laws of probability' to this. Where is the randomness? The vaccine contains ingredients that have been proven harmful to humans - that is a fact. You cannot apply probability if the ingredients in the vaccine were not randomly selected - that is a fact! Is the vaccine going to be randomly administered to people? No. Some people will chose to take it, some won't - You cannot apply probability if the vaccine is not going to be administered randomly - that is a fact!.



mhammer said:


> ... We avoid things like vaccinations that have a one in ten thousand risk of having deleterious (but remediable),...


Where is this number coming from??? What vaccines were part of the sample that was used to determine this number??? How many of those vaccines in that sample were created in the same scenario as the one for H1N1???




mhammer said:


> ... yet are content to invest ourselves heavily into things like lotteries which have a one-in-billions chance of every going our way (yes, I know there may be several million tickets sold each, but work out the probability of winning for someone who puts $5 into the pot for every single draw all year long).


This comparison is ridiculous. Lottories are theoretically random. Results of this vaccine are not - for many reasons.

Sorry, not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but I was formally trained at one of the best Mathematics schools in the world, and take a bit of exception when someone starts throwing facts around that are not completely accurate to try to influence people.


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## Ship of fools

*My outlook is as follows*

I am by far not a religious man, but I figure if the big guys wants me after surviving the 60's and drowning twice and rolling a car that was completely unreconizable as a car, well then its my turn to play music up there,( where ever that is ).
But for now I don't need a shot in the arm to fight off something I probably had as a kid to fight off fevers.
And while I am not against immunization for some things, its just a flu bug and lots of folks die every day from ordinary flu bugs every year. So if they want to fight anything then they should look at whooping cough,polio (had that, and find it rediculous when you hear kids in Canada are still contracting that filthy disease, maybe those parents should be forced to spend time in an iron lung and see how they like it )
So what are they going to do shoot me if I refuse to take a shot in the arm, well then I guess I'll meet my maker sooner then later, the only shot in the arm I'll take these days is to ease the pain, but hey thats just what I believe these days.Ship


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## mhammer

My wife deals with toxicology reports on a daily basis as part of employee health protection at the federal level. I venture to say that there are a great many substances you use on a daily basis that meet a criteria for acceptable use that is far less stringent than that for flu shots. The difference is that there is no media spotlight on such substances, and they've always been there, so we think nothing of them.

The trick to understanding relative risk is remembering what risks one takes on a daily basis that are just accepted at face value, versus the risks one is *thinking about* at the moment.

I used to teach both statistics and psycholinguistics. I would ask people in my class if it would impress them were I to successfully tell you what card you had picked from a deck on the first card, twice in a row. They are generally quite impressed with something that has a 1 in 2704 chance of occurring. Yet these same people think nothing of the ridiculously high odds of another person being able to complete their sentences with the same words they were planning to use, dozens of times a day, day after day after day. When one considers the size and scope of language, even if one was to impose stringent criteria and say "Well, it has to be a noun or verb", what humans accomplish each day, linguistically, faces astronomical odds of ever occurring. yet we do it all the time. And *because* we do it all the time, we take it for granted and it fails to impress us any longer, even though the statistical odds of it happening are very very small.

We work with substances, and expose ourselves to known risks, on a regular basis, and come away unscathed against all odds, eventually taking for granted that those known sources of risk are benign. Then we go and over-estimate the degree of relative risk of something that probably has a lower probability of occurring than something we agreeably face each and every day...like the risk of being in an accident given the way that some folks drive....simply because it is novel to us, and hasn't yet been taken for granted like other things. I venture to say many of us take medication of one type or another regularly. And this will be medication that is also associated with risk (the sort they spend 80% of the TV commercial telling you about). But because we've taken it so many times, we cease considering the risk.

Honestly, human perception of relative risk is a weird and wild thing, and is likely something that generally doesn't get taught in math/stats programs. Yet it is the very thing that determines whether stochastic information is used appropriately by consumers and decision-makers.

(Incidentally, vds500, I imagine that some of your math profs belled their grades, as do many other faculty. This too represents a fallacious application of probability, in that it is based on an assumed constellation of chance processes. If the prof does their job, the students do their job, the text does its job, the goals/expectations are appropriate to the program and level and made clear to the students, and the evaluations are fair and valid, there is no reason on earth why the grades should NOT be skewed with 50% or more of students achieving first class grades. Of course, try explaining that to any departmental chair or dean.)

I'm going for my shot when the occasion arises.


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## GuitarsCanada

Right now, 58% of respondents to the poll will not be getting the vaccine. Interesting.


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## vds5000

I certainly hope that nothing I have said or implied has caused anyone to change their mind one way or the other. Whether one should get the vaccine or not is an important decision that should be taken seriously.

Personally, I'm not comfortable with the circumstances surrounding any this, so I will hold out as long as I possibly can. In the meantime, I will continue to be careful when it comes to picking up or spreading germs.

One thing that they are stressing at work, and I agree 100% with this - if you are sick, stay home. Don't be a hero and come to work.


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## Big_Daddy

vds5000 said:


> I certainly hope that nothing I have said or implied has caused anyone to change their mind one way or the other. Whether one should get the vaccine or not is an important decision that should be taken seriously.
> 
> Personally, I'm not comfortable with the circumstances surrounding any this, so I will hold out as long as I possibly can. In the meantime, I will continue to be careful when it comes to picking up or spreading germs.
> 
> One thing that they are stressing at work, and I agree 100% with this - if you are sick, stay home. Don't be a hero and come to work.


Well said. And I agree completely.


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## vds5000

Big_Daddy said:


> Well said. And I agree completely.


Thanks, almost forgot though - if you have kids who come down with the symptoms - please keep them at home. It would not be fair to the other kids at school if they catch the symptoms due to negligence by adults.


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## Starbuck

cheezyridr said:


> that's pretty funny. you might as well consult the weekly world news for all the truth and unbiased journalism you'd get from macleans.
> 
> i decided i don't want the vaccine because
> 
> A) the cure was released a full 2 weeks before the outbreak.
> 
> B) the lab that created it is in the same mexican town where the outbreak started.
> 
> C) the world health organization has drawn up plans to use the army, if neccessary, to force people to take the vaccine in the event of a major outbreak.
> 
> i don't want anything i might later be force to take at gunpoint. especially when it contains these ingredients:
> 
> aluminum hydroxide
> aluminum phosphate
> ammonium sulfate
> amphotericin B
> animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain,
> dog kidney, monkey kidney,
> chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
> calf (bovine) serum
> betapropiolactone
> fetal bovine serum
> formaldehyde
> formalin
> gelatin
> glycerol
> human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
> hydrolized gelatin
> monosodium glutamate (MSG)
> neomycin
> neomycin sulfate
> phenol red indicator
> phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
> potassium diphosphate
> potassium monophosphate
> polymyxin B
> polysorbate 20
> polysorbate 80
> porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
> residual MRC5 proteins
> sorbitol
> sucrose
> thimerosal (mercury)
> tributylphosphat e,
> VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells
> washed sheep red blood cells
> 
> i read somewhere else that one of the cocktails also contains non active cancer cells. you wanna have any of the above runnin around in your body?


Just Curious, what's your source?


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## mhammer

One of the things that emerges from the anxiety of officials and the public at times like this are sensible contagion-prevention strategies that normally *ought* to be followed. I mean, if you're hacking away and propelling lord knows what at your co-workers at 300mph (the velocity of coughed particles from what I'm told), then maybe your supervisor *ought* to go easy on you and recommend you stay home...whether there is a pandemic scare or not.

And as I'm fond of reminding people Ignaz Semmelweis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis) made a huge dent in infant-mortality stats and increased life expectancy world-wide simply by getting physicians to wash their hands, You know, maybe there _is_ something to "this personal hygiene thing".:smile:

So, I'm sort of curious as to whether transmission/incidence rates of other known contagions drops during a period like this when people follow sensible precautions that have prophylactic effects far beyond H1N1 (or SARS, or avian flu, or...). Any of you epidemiology or pre-med students here hear anything on that order?


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## david henman

shoretyus said:


> No... I work by myself. I don't get the regular shots either and am sick very little.


...same here. staying healthy is the best revenge. i'm convinced that mental attitude plays a roll, as well.

when i DO get sick, i rely the magic of sleep/rest as a natural, and extremely effective, cure.

aside from certain natural herbs, i try my best to avoid drugs, especially pharmaceuticals.

-dh


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## Morbo

I'm getting it, if I can. I am far from being at risk of actually dying of this flu, but if, after the most vulnerable citizens had the vaccine, there's some left, I'll take it. I had "conventional" flu shots in the past, and had a very unpleasant episode a year I didn't get it, but in this case it's more of a question of stopping the propagation. Even if I wouldn't ever know it, I don't want to be the one infecting some toddler because I coughed at a bad time/bad place.

As for the "pharmaceutical companies and government conspiracy" thing, the fun fact is, people pay more if they're alive. Alive and healthy people are good taxpayers. Society might be facing a pretty bad epidemic, and even if it didn't kill anyone (it does), even a third of our doctors and nurses at home with the flu is bad news.

I'm no immunologist or virologist but the common flu has been around a while, and even if it mutates regularly (thus giving some work to those evil pharmaceutical companies like the local company that makes the flu shots for Quebec, man that three stories building is evil looking), people have built up some immunity over the years. H1N1 is a new one. I never had that flu, and if I did by all reports it'll hit me like a train. I'd have a bad few days and I'd be okay. But my grandfather wouldn't. Nor my pregnant coworker. Or my 3 years-old nephew. I'm pretty sure that asthmatic kid that might eat the apple you unwillingly infected wouldn't be okay either. 

So there, no one will force you to get the vaccine, because they can't. That's just Glenn Beck-ish nonsense. You have to make a choice, and to be aware of the potential consequences. 

If I had to guess I'd say it's not that bad. We'll have some troubles in some hospitals and a bit too much workers sick at home, but not the pandemic they're planning for. But I'm glad they're planning for a catastrophe *before* it hits, for once.


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## mhammer

I've been getting them every fall, since I became a cardiac patient and was moved to "the top of the list" in terms of who is recommended. They show up at work in the mezzanine, I go line up, and spend the weekend wondering why the hell my shoulder is so sore and going "Oh yeaaaaahhhh....riiiiiight!". But two days later I'm healthy, and healthy for the winter, usually.


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## Ship of fools

No H1N1 is not new, its been around before thats why some of the older folks who should be dying from the flu strain are not, its also why younger folks are having a harder time with it, because these bugs go in cycles it has not been around for a while and thus it creats these pandemics where certain ages are not affected as some are.Ship


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## Morbo

Ship of fools said:


> No H1N1 is not new, its been around before thats why some of the older folks who should be dying from the flu strain are not, its also why younger folks are having a harder time with it, because these bugs go in cycles it has not been around for a while and thus it creats these pandemics where certain ages are not affected as some are.Ship


Thanks for the info! So, apart from the scale of production, what is different for that vaccine? They have been making the vaccine for the new mutations of the common flu every year, what's so different about this vaccine, then?

Where are the immunologists when we need them? Oh yeah, they're working.


----------



## Robert1950

When you work with vulnerable people like I do, and many of them don't have the sense to block a sneeze/cough or they haven't wash their hands in three days, if that, you take a different perspective on risk of taking the flu shot. If you work by yourself, like Shoretyus, then your risk is low enough that your are not really putting yourself at risk by not getting the shot. With me, carrying around a bottle of hand sanitizer and a small bottle of listerine helps a bit. I may even consider carrying around mask, if necessary. They are even offering mask fittings and training at work - but you have to be clean shaven and I have a full beard. Am I willing to slightly reduce the risk by shaving during the flu season? NFW!


----------



## Milkman

No, for two reasons.

1. I'm not in a high risk group in terms of suffering serious effects.


2. I'm pretty sure I've already had that damn thing. I've been in Mexico City and Juarez both twice this year, including right in the original gufuffal back in March. Lots of people were walking around wih masks on. I got a little sick, mostly respiratory crap for a a couple of weeks.


I lived.



I figure I'm always better to allow my body to fight it off. Keeps my system on its toes.


----------



## Guest

I'm in the medical field and work for eight doctors. Over the past month or so I've asked them each on the side for their thoughts on the issue. Out of the eight physcians, only one is recomending the H1N1 vaccination. 

Personally, I'll be skipping it.


----------



## keeperofthegood

Ship of fools said:


> No H1N1 is not new, its been around before thats why some of the older folks who should be dying from the flu strain are not, its also why younger folks are having a harder time with it, because these bugs go in cycles it has not been around for a while and thus it creats these pandemics where certain ages are not affected as some are.Ship


OMFG and the planet DIED ... FOUR TIMES, it was a masacree, blood and death and oooooozing, lots and lots of ooooooozing.

9kkhhd you know, it is a merry-go-round, and the deaths go up, the deaths go down, and the species continues to go round and round.



Morbo said:


> Thanks for the info! So, apart from the scale of production, what is different for that vaccine? They have been making the vaccine for the new mutations of the common flu every year, what's so different about this vaccine, then?
> 
> Where are the immunologists when we need them? Oh yeah, they're working.


That is the basses of my comments earlier. "whats new" is apparently a lot of things because this shot seems to contain everything. From that list earlier, I suspect even a kitchen sink went into it. How come? Are all the other years shots "sub par" have we been paying for less than what we have been receiving all this time? Or is this one really and truly a massive fraud or simply overkill? You know, the OTHER product out there that DOES contain a list of INSANE ingredients ... is one we cannot talk about on this forum, but is this flu shot being made by a person, maybe first name Phillip, possibly with the last name Morris... :wave:




Robert1950 said:


> When you work with vulnerable people like I do, and many of them don't have the sense to block a sneeze/cough or they haven't wash their hands in three days, if that, you take a different perspective on risk of taking the flu shot. If you work by yourself, like Shoretyus, then your risk is low enough that your are not really putting yourself at risk by not getting the shot. With me, carrying around a bottle of hand sanitizer and a small bottle of listerine helps a bit. I may even consider carrying around mask, if necessary. They are even offering mask fittings and training at work - but you have to be clean shaven and I have a full beard. Am I willing to slightly reduce the risk by shaving during the flu season? NFW!


Yes, flu viri can live up to 72 hours on "surfaces", including belt buckles, ear lobes, stainless steal, phones etc. They die in a few hours on anything containing copper though. Beards = a lot of surface area. In any case, if anyone does a "mask" they SHOULD get proper training in the use of those. I watched 2 winters back as one of the "lab boys" was interviewed and from stock footage of people on the streets wearing masks he showed how and why every single person wearing them were wearing them wrong.

My mother passed away some years ago. She battled cancer for 9 years. Many of the drugs she was pumped full of killed off her immune system. We made sure we were as injected, inspected, detected as we could be. There are months of runny noses were we did not visit mom because for us a runny nose is a runny nose, for mom it could mean hospitalization.

Work types like working with vulnerable people risk, organizations like schools risk, clubs like curling risk, family like sick mom's risk are all important things to keep in mind.


----------



## Big_Daddy

Bytor1975 said:


> I'm in the medical field and work for eight doctors. Over the past month or so I've asked them each on the side for their thoughts on the issue. Out of the eight physcians, only one is recomending the H1N1 vaccination.


Wow. This speaks volumes. Thanks for posting this.


----------



## Skndstry

mhammer said:


> I will state yet one more time that one of the most useful courses anyone will ever take at university is a course in probability and statistics. Far too many public panics are sparked by misunderstandings of relative risk. We avoid things like vaccinations that have a one in ten thousand risk of having deleterious (but remediable), yet are content to invest ourselves heavily into things like lotteries which have a one-in-billions chance of every going our way (yes, I know there may be several million tickets sold each, but work out the probability of winning for someone who puts $5 into the pot for every single draw all year long).



Okay, I'll play. According to the stats put out by Health Canada:

1 in 3 people MAY fall ill with H1N1
Of THAT number, 1 in 1000 will become seriously ill.
Of THAT number, 1 in 6 will die.

So - how about you crunch those odds for me? 

You odds of winning the lottery may actually be BETTER than they are of dying from this flu. 

So what exactly is it we are trying to avoid?

I work in health care - I will come into indirect contact with these people. I will not get this vaccination, because there is far too little known about it.

For example, we are told that last years' flu vaccine makes you twice as succeptible to H1N1. Nobody could have predicted that. 

Now, what happens if this vaccine makes you twice as succeptible to the REAL pandemic that actually DOES kill people in numbers?

No thanks.


----------



## keeperofthegood

Skndstry said:


> Okay, I'll play. According to the stats put out by Health Canada:
> 
> 1 in 3 people MAY fall ill with H1N1
> Of THAT number, 1 in 1000 will become seriously ill.
> Of THAT number, 1 in 6 will die.
> 
> So - how about you crunch those odds for me?
> 
> You odds of winning the lottery may actually be BETTER than they are of dying from this flu.
> 
> So what exactly is it we are trying to avoid?
> 
> I work in health care - I will come into indirect contact with these people. I will not get this vaccination, because there is far too little known about it.
> 
> For example, we are told that last years' flu vaccine makes you twice as succeptible to H1N1. Nobody could have predicted that.
> 
> Now, what happens if this vaccine makes you twice as succeptible to the REAL pandemic that actually DOES kill people in numbers?
> 
> No thanks.


Then the human herd gets thinned out. Thats all.

I do not believe that getting a flu shot will keep you alive. It may keep you from getting sick, or making others sick (noble ends in themselves), but I believe it is all genetics. You have the DNA to die, you die; shot irrespective.

So, why is it that the 1918 flu WAS heavily investigated until bodies were dug up in Siberia and live viri was extracted and shown to be IDENTICAL to a matching common flu viri strain and then ... nothing? Easy, companies can make more money selling flu shots than telling people that "oh, you might die from the 1918 strain, but since all the DNA susceptible people already did die from it, it isn't likely".

Take the shot if you have kids, pregnant women, elderly, ill, or disabled people in your care. Do them the favour, even if they are destined to live, having the flue sux donkey balls. But, don't expect that taking it will mean you live.


----------



## mhammer

When people crunch numbers for this sort of thing, understand that the goal is not JUST to predict how many people might die. There is a huge economic impact of having a lot of people be sick, even if they're back on top of things after 2 weeks in bed. Just try to consider the impact if:

1 in 3 airline pilots get sick
1 in 3 nurses get sick
1 in 3 border guards get sick
1 in 3 elementary school teachers get sick
1 in 3 managers whose signing authority you need in order to proceed get sick
1 in 3 people at the call center get sick
1 in 3 short order cooks get sick
...and so on.

Is this going to be another Y2K or Comet Kohoutek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_Kohoutek)? Possibly. But you don't have to be in Scouts that long to know the advantages of being prepared.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

man, this is crazy. I have no idea what to do or advise my family on doing.


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## ajcoholic

Big_Daddy said:


> Wow. This speaks volumes. Thanks for posting this.


Not really. Doctors are not "know it all" people... my wife is a family and emergency room physician. I trust her, as she is a well respected doctor. Of course, we have a lot of friends who are also doctors. So in my case its the opposite. WHo are you going to believe? You have to decide for yourself. DOctors are people to, and have to make decisions just as we all do - not always right but I trust her.

I know of only one who is indifferent about the flu shot. But her husband (also a doctor) does get it. She doesnt like needles so that may be her reason. Everyone else gets it, as does my wife and therefore so do I.

I think a lot of people are still afraid of " their trying to get us" and the whole thing is related to $$ and nothing to do with our health. I believe it is a risk taken either way (as with so many other things in life) however, I will take my chances and get the shot. I have had the flu recently (3 years ago) and it is hellish, I was in bed for a nearly a week and before that I missed just one day in 12 years working.

One more thing, H1N1 is not unlike any other flu - with one exception, it is much more contagious and therefore easier to spread. The number of cases expected makes it bad - it is not "worse". The other thing is that is seems to be affecting younger people more so than the elderly which again is opposite of the seasonal flu virus. But if you are healthy, it shouldnt be worse if you do get it than any other flu - which is still pretty rotten for most, and can be pretty bad if you are already ill.

AJC


----------



## mhammer

Doctors are on the front line, and have their training and their perspective. Public health officials get the bigger picture, and have *their* training and *their* perspective. I don't expect their judgments to be mutually exclusive.

Ultimately, the sensible thing to do is to be prepared and vigilant. Practice good hygiene and contagion prevention. If you go for a shot, keep an eye open for any effects. If you don't go for a shot, keep an eye open for any symptoms.

I don't consider those getting vaccinated as "saved" or those declining one as "doomed". Do what's prudent, and do it in a timely fashion; the people you ride the bus with, work with, sell to, and tuck into bed every night are depending on it.


----------



## Morbo

mhammer said:


> I don't consider those getting vaccinated as "saved" or those declining one as "doomed". Do what's prudent, and do it in a timely fashion; the people you ride the bus with, work with, sell to, and tuck into bed every night are depending on it.


That reminds me, I'm surprised that I haven't heard yet any American tying the vaccine to the mark of the beast and the Obama/Antichrist thing. Might be a question of days now.


----------



## pickslide

My wife is pregnant, but is rather insistant that she does not want the vaccine. I am not sure what to think to be totally honest. However, one thing that seems rather odd to me is this:

The government alread has in its posession (meaning already spent the money) on enough vaccine for every Canadian, yet it was just approved by Health Canada today (I think). So, my concern here is, is there any possibility, even the slightest, that part of the decision to approve it is because they already have it and it would be a disaster to have to forego all of that vaccine in order to test and purchase a new one?

Perhaps totally paranoid and I guess you could say that is the "Mulder" in me, but just something that crossed my mind.


----------



## mhammer

pickslide said:


> My wife is pregnant, but is rather insistant that she does not want the vaccine. I am not sure what to think to be totally honest. However, one thing that seems rather odd to me is this:
> 
> The government alread has in its posession (meaning already spent the money) on enough vaccine for every Canadian, yet it was just approved by Health Canada today (I think). So, my concern here is, is there any possibility, even the slightest, that part of the decision to approve it is because they already have it and it would be a disaster to have to forego all of that vaccine in order to test and purchase a new one?
> 
> Perhaps totally paranoid and I guess you could say that is the "Mulder" in me, but just something that crossed my mind.


Nah, you just don't realize how government works. The asynchrony you feel is there is merely a product of paperwork, co-ordinating who can meet with who when, who has signing authority for what, and bureaucratic crap like "keeping things under embargo" until everything is official. Remember that the announcement is accompanied by a press release. That press release has to be translated in order to *be* released publicly and the translation has to be vetted before that (usually involving a back-translation). Before it even goes off for translation, it has to jump through a zillion hoops in the communications directorate, and before it does that it has to go through a senior management committee. So the decision was made a long time ago, and only announced recently.

By contrast, the ordering of vaccine did NOT require wordsmithing in both official languages.

With respect to your wife. First congratulations on the pregnancy.:wave: AFAIC, kids are the only reason to want to live forever...just to see how their lives turn out.:smile: Flu shots are not the only "shot" one might get during a pregnancy. She should probably discuss with her doctor what general ground rules she might want to observe about any and all medications and innoculations. For instance, is a tetanus shot reasonable? Is a "regular" flu shot reasonable? Are anti-biotics okay to take? and so on. It's the overall alignment of all possible approaches to disease prevention/management that has to be worked out, not just a single critical decision about one shot. 

ALL vaccines developed are developed following similar, if not identical protocols, and the H1N1 follows the same protocol. The specific virus may be new, but the way you go about making and testing a vaccine isn't, so either vaccinations in general are acceptable to her, or they aren't.

It is also worth noting that the things a developing foetus is susceptible to vary with trimester. remember, all those parts take a while to grow, and different things are growing at different times, hence affected by exogenous agents to different degrees at different times. It may be the case that if she's past her first trimester, it's all cool. I'm not saying it IS, just that it could be that simple.


----------



## Rugburn

*WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!* ............but, thankfully, it likely won't be the "Swine Flu"/H1N1 virus that gets you. I think the "Daily Show" got it right when they called this nonsense "Doubtbreak '09". My $0.02


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## guitarman2

No swine flu needle for me. And I'm working in a high risk environment to catch it. Many world travelers in my office. Luckily I can work from home If someone gets it.
But I'm not going to worry about swine flu or the millions of other diseases I can get. If I'm going to die I would like to at least live my present time as worry free as possible. I'll take some necessary pre cautions but I'm not convinced the swine flu vaccine is necessary.


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## Skndstry

"1 in 3 airline pilots get sick
1 in 3 nurses get sick
1 in 3 border guards get sick
1 in 3 elementary school teachers get sick
1 in 3 managers whose signing authority you need in order to proceed get sick
1 in 3 people at the call center get sick
1 in 3 short order cooks get sick
...and so on."

Yeah. Okay. But not all at once. And in varying degrees. 

A vaccine should not be taken for convenience's sake. If we are going to start messing with nature because we don't want to "feel yucky" or lose a few bucks, it is going to come back and bite us on the ass. 

Bad karma. 

I am not making Glaxo Smith Klein rich and injecting a substance into my arm so our economy doesn't "take a hit" or to be a "good citizen." 

We'll have to agree to disagree. Get the flu shot and I won't. Bet we're both still here to tell the tale along with just about everyone else. It's the down the road that will remain to be seen. 

Meanwhile, I've read that flu season Down Under has already come and gone. 

Guess what?

Marginally worse than your average flu season. 

Nope. Not worth it.


----------



## ajcoholic

If I loose a week's work - being self employed - I loose a LOT of $$, thousands. If a flue shot will help prevent me from getting the flu, and not having to stay at home in bed thats not just "for the sake of convenience".


And the kicker for me - and this makes me laugh - watching someone who swears they wont put something "like that" into their arm in fear of god-knows-what, as they reach for their pack of smokes (or other stuff that we all know is so healthy for us).

This whole thing is always such a gong show... its a vaccine. Plain and simple, and there are many of them for various viral infections. If you choose not to take it, thats great! But why make it sound like its something sinister/big brother/ government conspiracy, etc... please.

AJC


----------



## keeperofthegood

ajcoholic said:


> If I loose a week's work - being self employed - I loose a LOT of $$, thousands. If a flue shot will help prevent me from getting the flu, and not having to stay at home in bed thats not just "for the sake of convenience".
> 
> 
> And the kicker for me - and this makes me laugh - watching someone who swears they wont put something "like that" into their arm in fear of god-knows-what, as they reach for their pack of smokes (or other stuff that we all know is so healthy for us).
> 
> This whole thing is always such a gong show... its a vaccine. Plain and simple, and there are many of them for various viral infections. If you choose not to take it, thats great! But why make it sound like its something sinister/big brother/ government conspiracy, etc... please.
> 
> AJC


I think in this case, the government helped in this perspective in a lot of ways. 

I know from years past that what is in a flu shot is a mix of dead viri, preservative, and antibiotic. There is probably some chicken guts or other too (I believe they still use eggs to incubate the virus). But, with all the chatter of "what" is being created, and how "specially made" this is, and they had to go and throw around power words like tamiflu which puts into everyones head notions of things like bio-terror well...

I am only sceptical of the rigmarole that has surrounded this particular vaccine, I am sceptical at what may have been put into it. I hate like heck how much this sounds like what 'name your brand' cig company tailors cigs. Yes, I get FLU shots, but I do not know that I want a "politically driven concoction of indeterminate origins" which is how the media and the government have sadly portrayed this one. Not only that, this is definitely new and newly tailored enough to warrant the need for a Health Canada inspection and ok. Regular flu shots, no. They are made and sent world wide, no issues, no red tape, no special programs, trial runs, applications for government approval, they are old hat. Why is this one so damnably different? 

Especially for, as has been said, a regular, normal, seen before, nothing new, flu.


----------



## Big_Daddy

Just to muddy the waters a little more......

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/10/22/New-Study-Demonstrates-Significant-Harm-From-Just-ONE-Mercury-Containing-Vaccine.aspx


----------



## dwagar

I really think that a high percentage of people that are coming up with reasons not to get the vaccine, simply boils down to "I'm scared of needles".

Buck up, get the shot.


----------



## mhammer

dwagar said:


> I really think that a high percentage of people that are coming up with reasons not to get the vaccine, simply boils down to "I'm scared of needles".
> 
> Buck up, get the shot.


I wouldn't put it down to that. I think there are plenty of people who, rightly or wrongly, are afraid of the _side-effects_ of needles...but certainly not the needles themselves.

Incidentally, let me defuse some of the antipathy towards "big pharma" by noting that the Glaxo facility pumping out all this vaccine is situated in lovely St. Foy, Quebec; Quebec City's very own little Mississauga, or Burnaby, or Dartmouth, or Nepean, or...you get the picture. So at least we're buying it from a facility staffed by Canadian workers, and I'm sure they are proud of being able to provide that service to their fellow citizens.

My wife explained "adjuvants" to me this morning, and I guss the best way I could describe them for this crowd is they're like a "clean booster". In other words, they enhance or amplify the immune response to the deactivated pathogen contained in the injection by drawing the T-cells to the location of the injection; a bit lke the way a clean booster will allow your signal to attract the attention of the listener during a solo. The adjuvant is traditionally something inorganic which is reacted to by the immune system as a foreign body. While older adjuvants contained mercury, we have since learned a great deal about the undesirable effects of mercury, and other replacements have been adopted.


----------



## lbrown1

dwagar said:


> I really think that a high percentage of people that are coming up with reasons not to get the vaccine, simply boils down to "I'm scared of needles".
> 
> Buck up, get the shot.


get blood taken once a week - dislike needles - yes - haven't met a soul who actually likes needles - afraid of them - get too many to be afraid anymore......not the point - it's the content in this here vaccine needle that I don't want.....thankfully in Canada we still have the ability to make choices like this.

for me and my family, "no" is the right choice


----------



## Milkman

Big_Daddy said:


> Wow. This speaks volumes. Thanks for posting this.


Yup. Sure makes you wonder what all the fuss is about.


Well, that and the reality that the conventional flu kills more than 20,000 people in the USA each year.


Sorry, but I think there's a lot of hype happening with this issue.


----------



## Milkman

dwagar said:


> I really think that a high percentage of people that are coming up with reasons not to get the vaccine, simply boils down to "I'm scared of needles".
> 
> Buck up, get the shot.



Horse hockey. I'm not worried about the needle, just what's in it.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

*Some Info from the CDC*

Posting for your consumption and review



> What percentage of hospitalizations for 2009 H1N1 flu occur in different age groups in the United States?
> The percentage of hospitalizations for 2009 H1N1 flu in the United States varies by age group. From August 30, 2009 through October 10, 2009, states reported 4,958 laboratory-confirmed 2009 H1N1 hospitalizations to CDC. The percentage of 2009 H1N1 related hospitalizations that occurred among those 0 to 4 years old was 19%; among those 5 years to 18 years was 25%; among people 19 years to 24 years was 9%; among those 25 years to 49 years was 24%; among people 50 to 64 years was 15%; and among people 65 years and older was 7%. For a graphical representation of this data, please see the chart below.
> 
> 
> What percentage of deaths for 2009 H1N1 flu occur in different age groups in the United States?
> 
> The percentage of deaths for 2009 H1N1 flu in the United States varies by age group. From August 30, 2009 through October 10, 2009, states reported 292 laboratory-confirmed 2009 H1N1 deaths to CDC. The percentage of 2009 H1N1 related deaths that occurred among people 0 years to 4 years was 3%; among those 5 years to 18 years was 14%; among people 19 to 24 years was 7%; among people 25 to 49 years was 33%; among people 50-64 years was 32%; and among people 65 years and older was 12%. For a graphical representation of this data, please see the chart below.


----------



## rollingdam

cheezyridr said:


> that's pretty funny. you might as well consult the weekly world news for all the truth and unbiased journalism you'd get from macleans.
> 
> i decided i don't want the vaccine because
> 
> A) the cure was released a full 2 weeks before the outbreak.
> 
> B) the lab that created it is in the same mexican town where the outbreak started.
> 
> C) the world health organization has drawn up plans to use the army, if neccessary, to force people to take the vaccine in the event of a major outbreak.
> 
> i don't want anything i might later be force to take at gunpoint. especially when it contains these ingredients:
> 
> aluminum hydroxide
> aluminum phosphate
> ammonium sulfate
> amphotericin B
> animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain,
> dog kidney, monkey kidney,
> chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
> calf (bovine) serum
> betapropiolactone
> fetal bovine serum
> formaldehyde
> formalin
> gelatin
> glycerol
> human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
> hydrolized gelatin
> monosodium glutamate (MSG)
> neomycin
> neomycin sulfate
> phenol red indicator
> phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
> potassium diphosphate
> potassium monophosphate
> polymyxin B
> polysorbate 20
> polysorbate 80
> porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
> residual MRC5 proteins
> sorbitol
> sucrose
> thimerosal (mercury)
> tributylphosphat e,
> VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells
> washed sheep red blood cells
> 
> i read somewhere else that one of the cocktails also contains non active cancer cells. you wanna have any of the above runnin around in your body?


My wife who is a nurse wants to know the source where you found the in gredients-she is not going to take it either


----------



## GuitarsCanada

I found this off a site that has the FDA insert for the vaccine. Basically the fact sheet that comes with the doses. There are 3-4 different delivery methods. Injection, nasal spray etc. 



> Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine, for intramuscular injection, is a sterile, clear, colorless to slightly opalescent suspension with some sediment that resuspends upon shaking to form a homogeneous suspension. Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine is prepared from influenza virus propagated in the allantoic fluid of embryonated chicken eggs. Following harvest, the virus is purified in a sucrose density gradient using a continuous flow zonal centrifuge. The purified virus is inactivated with beta-propiolactone, and the virus particles are disrupted using sodium taurodeoxycholate to produce a “split virion”. The disrupted virus is further purified and suspended in a phosphate buffered isotonic solution.
> 
> Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine is formulated to contain 15 mcg HA per 0.5 mL dose of influenza A/California/7/2009 (H1N1)v-like virus.
> 
> The single-dose formulation is preservative-free; thimerosal, a mercury derivative, is not used in the manufacturing process for this formulation. The multi-dose formulation contains thimerosal, added as a preservative; each 0.5 mL dose contains 24.5 mcg of mercury.
> 
> A single 0.5 mL dose of Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine contains sodium chloride (4.1 mg), monobasic sodium phosphate (80 mcg), dibasic sodium phosphate (300 mcg), monobasic potassium phosphate (20 mcg), potassium chloride (20 mcg), and calcium chloride (1.5 mcg). From the manufacturing process, each dose may also contain residual amounts of sodium taurodeoxycholate (≤ 10 ppm), ovalbumin (≤ 1 mcg), neomycin sulfate (≤ 0.2 picograms [pg]), polymyxin B (≤ 0.03 pg), and beta-propiolactone.


The actual manufactures fact page is available on line, its 20 plus pages long so I am not going to post it here. The link to the PDF page is here if anyone wants to read through it

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM182242.pdf


----------



## david henman

dwagar said:


> I really think that a high percentage of people that are coming up with reasons not to get the vaccine, simply boils down to "I'm scared of needles".


...seriously?????


----------



## EGBDF

Um, no.
Nor will my family.
We try and make sound decisions based on fact, common sense and intuition (like, not washing with anti-bacterial everything, every 2 minutes), eat as well as we can, and take care of ourselves. We rarely get sick. And if we do, it's for a very short period of time, and never very bad.

That said, I won't be avoiding this one for those reasons alone. It just smells like a bad egg. Taking a step back and looking at all sources (pro and con) quite frankly, I don't like the idea of the people who made the virus and the cure, own the media and stand to gain the most, financially, telling me what I need to do. I'm not a tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist, but like anything, you need to look at all sides and trust your gut. Nobody knows the truth, and nobody can predict the future - no matter what side you're on. You gotta look at everything and trust your gut. In my case, I'm in line with all the other millions of "crazies" who say HELL NO.

The fact that there's even talk of a possible "forced vaccination"...
well. That's just plain frightening, that is.

Great poll, btw.
Very interesting to read where other people stand on this subject...


----------



## Fader

Interesting update on vaccination victim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh5F5wP8RdU&feature=player_embedded


----------



## Starbuck

I usually get the flu shot yearly. I'm asthmatic and that just makes it really hard to get rid of. I'm the range that H1N1 is likely to effect most detrimentally. I'm still unsure of what to do. I also have a 4 year old in school. I realize that most of the news like the clip posted about the cheerleader is fear mongering of the worst sort (not on the part of OP) and there were likely underlying conditions which lead to the reaction. Much like the girl in Britain who died after receiving the HPV vaccination. The news today is sensationalism of the very worst kind. But how do you disseminate what's true from what's only maybe true? The internet is the same thing. There is so much information out there, _but not all of it is true_ 

I think I'm more worried about the crap people feed their kids and the obesity epidemic than the flu.


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## GuitarsCanada

I am still debating the whole thing, not from a dying standpoint but of coming down with this thing and being sick for a week or two. With just Marnie and I running the shop and anywhere from 30-70 people a day coming in here we are bound to be wide open for viral attack. Just cant afford to have one of us or both sick with flu.


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## NIK0

If you trust the manufacturers of the H1N1 vaccine and your government then people...roll up your sleeves!

http://shockedinvestor.blogspot.com/2009/09/h1n1-vaccine-manufacturers-stocks-that.html

I love people and I could only hope we all get together and fight corporatization.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

NIK0 said:


> If you trust the manufacturers of the H1N1 vaccine and your government then people...roll up your sleeves!
> 
> http://shockedinvestor.blogspot.com/2009/09/h1n1-vaccine-manufacturers-stocks-that.html
> 
> I love people and I could only hope we all get together and fight corporatization.


Yes, but someone has to make money. They are not going to make it for free. I do not be-grudge a company making a profit, thats why they are in business. This does not bother me near as much as nonsense like Viagara and the whole limp noodle epidemic, which before these drugs never seemed to exist, at least in the publics eye.

Microsoft has had us all by the nuts for 20 years. Gates is one of the richest people on earth. Someone is going to make a profit.


----------



## Big_Daddy

I am going to toss in this link for the people who would like to consider a more natural approach to the prevention and treatment of viral infections such as the flu. I am trained and certified as a Chartered Herbalist and have personally seen and experienced the positive influence of natural herbal extracts on many serious diseases. I keep a several bottles of anti-bacterial, anti-viral and anti-parasitic extracts in the cupboard and my family uses them regularly to help prevent illness as well as shorten its duration.

This is a very good article on the use of herbal products in fighting viral infections..

http://www.wholisticresearch.com/info/artshow.php3?artid=400

I'd like to add here that many pharmaceutical products are chemical representations of natural-based remedies that have been around for centuries. Because these remedies are found in naturally growing plants and vegetation, they cannot be owned or trademarked by any corporation or entity.


----------



## Rugburn

GuitarsCanada said:


> Yes, but someone has to make money. They are not going to make it for free. I do not be-grudge a company making a profit, thats why they are in business. This does not bother me near as much as nonsense like Viagara and the whole limp noodle epidemic, which before these drugs never seemed to exist, at least in the publics eye.
> 
> Microsoft has had us all by the nuts for 20 years. Gates is one of the richest people on earth. Someone is going to make a profit.


Making money is fine, massaging the fears the public and their governments have regarding an *unknown* threat for profit, is the issue. I'm sure this strain of Flu has some very real concerns for health experts, but the lobbyists have taken an ounce of caution and turned it into a pound of panic. I'd bet my last dollar that in a year that has seen so much economic turmoil, big pharma whispered sweet nothings into the ears of those in power. To the effect that if we sit on our collective laurels, we will visit even graver economic instabillities. I doubt this vaccine poses serious health risks, but this is the dawn of "The Man" telling you that we must all put some concoction in our arms for "the good of us all". This scares the shit out of me. I feel certain we'll see more "pandemics" we need "their" protection from in the near future. It's interesting to note that rather than discuss how, why, where, when and what this mutation was caused by (as was mentioned in the news early on in the outbreak), it's now all about the vaccine and who's dying from the virus. The real value would be in looking at how corporate farming likely led to this disease. Salmon farms in B.C. have caused ruin to the wild stocks in the Pacific. Avian Flu routinely appears on large poultry farms in Canada and all over the world. Mad Cow disease in Alberta. There's plenty of evidence that these and other modern farming practices put profit ahead of public safety. The government and their big business friends would rather we shut-up and take our needle.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Starbuck said:


> I usually get the flu shot yearly. I'm asthmatic and that just makes it really hard to get rid of. I'm the range that H1N1 is likely to effect most detrimentally. I'm still unsure of what to do. I also have a 4 year old in school. I realize that most of the news like the clip posted about the cheerleader is fear mongering of the worst sort (not on the part of OP) and there were likely underlying conditions which lead to the reaction. Much like the girl in Britain who died after receiving the HPV vaccination. The news today is sensationalism of the very worst kind. But how do you disseminate what's true from what's only maybe true? The internet is the same thing. There is so much information out there, _but not all of it is true_
> 
> I think I'm more worried about the crap people feed their kids and the obesity epidemic than the flu.


This whole episode does make one think though. See how things are changing with the advent of global communication, the internet etc. 50 years ago when you were told by the government to get in line and get your needle I am sure that 80 to 90% of the population did just that, without question. It is little wonder that with the erosion of trust in our elected officials coupled with the access to unlimited data on the internet, that we have poll results like we have on this flu. It is going to be very interesting to watch how this unfolds and see who is ultimately right. Let's just hope that few lives are lost in the process, whether that be through the actual flu or the vaccine.

Is it healthy to trust nobody though? Where is this current trend of "trust nobody" going to take us in the future. Let's face it, you can't bet the house on a lot of stuff that gets published on the internet. We also seem to have lost total faith and trust in just about every media format. Again, a lot of that has been rightly placed on the media outlets themselves. In the never ending pursuit of ratings and sales the "news" gets more and more questionable. But will it reach the point where we believe nothing anymore? if you reach a point where you believe nothing the goverment says, you beleive nothing the media says and you have to take everything you read on the internet with a huge grain of salt... where are we headed?


----------



## keeperofthegood

GuitarsCanada said:


> This whole episode does make one think though. See how things are changing with the advent of global communication, the internet etc. 50 years ago when you were told by the government to get in line and get your needle I am sure that 80 to 90% of the population did just that, without question. It is little wonder that with the erosion of trust in our elected officials coupled with the access to unlimited data on the internet, that we have poll results like we have on this flu. It is going to be very interesting to watch how this unfolds and see who is ultimately right. Let's just hope that few lives are lost in the process, whether that be through the actual flu or the vaccine.
> 
> Is it healthy to trust nobody though? Where is this current trend of "trust nobody" going to take us in the future. Let's face it, you can't bet the house on a lot of stuff that gets published on the internet. We also seem to have lost total faith and trust in just about every media format. Again, a lot of that has been rightly placed on the media outlets themselves. In the never ending pursuit of ratings and sales the "news" gets more and more questionable. But will it reach the point where we believe nothing anymore? if you reach a point where you believe nothing the goverment says, you beleive nothing the media says and you have to take everything you read on the internet with a huge grain of salt... where are we headed?


 I know a few things. In medicine and science. I am the quintessential "knows enough to get himself killed" person when it comes to these topics. I would LOVE to go to Uni and study genetics and chemistry, but Mr. Mike messed ... I digress 

It has been for YEARS reported in the media "what" was needed for a virus (typically the Flu is used though sometimes pox is mentioned too) to become a globalized killer. That Avian, Pig, and Human flu strains would need to mix, and do so in a monetarily depressed area with little or poor public health care. In the state of poverty, infection levels can be assured to reach a critical mass for it to disseminate and globalize. The "persons that slip the cracks" and carry it on their way.

So, what else do I know from my many years breathing?

1) Viri and Bacteria can inter-mingle and raise mutations.
2) Viri and Viri can inter-mingle and raise mutations.
3) Many viri need a bacterial intermediate to successfully mutate.
4) I can purchase, mail order, MANY Viri and Bacteria. Only a few are restricted to government registered institutes such as a few of the e-coli strains but really, all you need to do is swab a cows bu.. never mind.
5) Viri and Bacteria travel on legs. That is, inside of birds, bigs, people. OR inside of brief cases. They don't go sailing across the ocean on the wind.

Now, I would LOVE to know the data backing this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus_subtype_H1N1#2009_A.28H1N1.29_pandemic



> "found to be made up of genetic elements from four different flu viruses – North American swine influenza, North American avian influenza, human influenza, and swine influenza virus typically found in Asia and Europe"


Because it does read in a manner of someone having made soup. 

I read another article on a question I asked here earlier too. The "why" is this vaccine different. What I read was that this flu is 'broken' for lack of a better word. It keeps tearing itself apart and sticking itself back together again differently. This is why the odds of the shot working are at best 90%, and why so many fragmented components are being used in the shot, trying to get the virus as it is re-designing itself rather than as a whole unit.

:wave: No, I am not paranoiac; but I can read and logic and what I read and what I logic are not necessarily happy thoughts. I still maintain as I first said on this topic months and months ago:

Its the sniffles.


EDIT:

Um, can anyone explain the math in this?
Yes 45 43.27%
No 59 56.73%
43.27 + 56.73 does equal 100, but 45 + 59 equals 104


----------



## GuitarsCanada

keeperofthegood said:


> I know a few things. In medicine and science. I am the quintessential "knows enough to get himself killed" person when it comes to these topics. I would LOVE to go to Uni and study genetics and chemistry, but Mr. Mike messed ... I digress
> 
> *It has been for YEARS reported in the media "what" was needed for a virus *(typically the Flu is used though sometimes pox is mentioned too) to become a globalized killer. That Avian, Pig, and Human flu strains would need to mix, and do so in a monetarily depressed area with little or poor public health care. In the state of poverty, infection levels can be assured to reach a critical mass for it to disseminate and globalize. The "persons that slip the cracks" and carry it on their way.
> 
> So, what else do I know from my many years breathing?
> 
> 1) Viri and Bacteria can inter-mingle and raise mutations.
> 2) Viri and Viri can inter-mingle and raise mutations.
> 3) Many viri need a bacterial intermediate to successfully mutate.
> 4) I can purchase, mail order, MANY Viri and Bacteria. Only a few are restricted to government registered institutes such as a few of the e-coli strains but really, all you need to do is swab a cows bu.. never mind.
> 5) Viri and Bacteria travel on legs. That is, inside of birds, bigs, people. OR inside of brief cases. They don't go sailing across the ocean on the wind.
> 
> Now, I would LOVE to know the data backing this:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus_subtype_H1N1#2009_A.28H1N1.29_pandemic
> 
> Because it does read in a manner of someone having made soup.
> 
> I read another article on a question I asked here earlier too. The "why" is this vaccine different. What I read was that this flu is 'broken' for lack of a better word. It keeps tearing itself apart and sticking itself back together again differently. This is why the odds of the shot working are at best 90%, and why so many fragmented components are being used in the shot, trying to get the virus as it is re-designing itself rather than as a whole unit.
> 
> :wave: No, I am not paranoiac; but I can read and logic and what I read and what I logic are not necessarily happy thoughts. I still maintain as I first said on this topic months and months ago:
> 
> Its the sniffles.
> 
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Um, can anyone explain the math in this?
> Yes 45 43.27%
> No 59 56.73%
> 43.27 + 56.73 does equal 100, but 45 + 59 equals 104



Thats the problem though, We start to question everything now. We read all these things but (no offense at all intended) but you could be a raving lunatic for all anyone knows. In the land of the internet you can post anything. Someone could actually post that they are a PHd in flu, who is to question that.

I also just read today that after years of telling people that cell phone usage was safe that the WHO is about to announce that it causes brain cancer.


----------



## keeperofthegood

GuitarsCanada said:


> Thats the problem though, We start to question everything now. We read all these things but (no offense at all intended) but you could be a raving lunatic for all anyone knows. In the land of the internet you can post anything. Someone could actually post that they are a PHd in flu, who is to question that.
> 
> I also just read today that after years of telling people that cell phone usage was safe that the WHO is about to announce that it causes brain cancer.


:rockon2: None Taken 

I know I am not "educated" as in PhD'd, but I have educated myself a lot and I know I still have lots left to learn too. Did a lot of learning before going online, done a lot since (shocked me when I met on line Dr Joel Huberman http://asajj.roswellpark.org/huberman/jh.html , one of the founders of genetics research. I would love to catch some his lectures at UofT ... but he is now retired  ). I know the WIKI is not the Guru Of Knowing, which is why I said I would like to know the source information for that quote. But I think I am not ostensibly different than a lot of other 'common joes' out there. Able to read and read a lot and question things much more fluently than we were able to 30 or 50 years ago.

 I agree, today we have far better access to information, some good some bad. Sometimes people want to say a source is bad because they want to discredit the source not the information, sometimes people take information as truth only because of the source it came from. WHO is a source not a lot different than the Wiki, not infallible.

I recall in University my maths teacher talking about how a text had been approved for use that reversed the > and < symbols. The teachers didn't catch it, the students learned it, and when it was noticed they had been reversed, the schools were told it was too late to change it, just to continue teaching it backwards.  Now, how the heck am I supposed to know if this is a fabrication or a slice of unadvertised history of University education in Canada that my class was taught?

Eventually, you have to trust that you have gained some good information and go with that. I think I have what I need to know about this flu and flu shot. I think getting this flu will be like any other flu, sick for a week and done, so I am not going to go out of my way to do anything different. Wash my hands, sneeze into my elbow, and sleep well at night


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## mhammer

GuitarsCanada said:


> Yes, but someone has to make money. They are not going to make it for free.


Equally important, there is no way in hell that ANY small company could produce the volume required to fight this at the national level. I.E., in order to have the production facilities, quality control, pricepoint, and distribution required, they necessarily have to be a big company, and they can't be a big company unless they ARE profitable. That's just the nature of the beast. It's a bit like expecting Canadian bank notes or passports to be produced by some small "artisan" printing company at a rate that will get currency and official documents into our hands quickly with all the needed security features; it simply can't happen.

But to get back to probabilities. The push for vaccination comes from public health officials. These people are neither stupid or in the pocket of drug companies. However, they do have a perspective that is perhaps not the same as you or I, and because it is different it seems odd, so we think of it as having ulterior motives. They think in terms of *population*-based likelihoods, while we think in terms of personal possibilities. So, one of us might look at the stats and think to ourselves "Well, there is a pretty good chance that I won't get the flu, and there is a small chance I may get sick and even fatally ill from the vaccination, so it poses a risk to me. And if these guys are pushing for vaccinations that might pose a risk to me personally, they must have some suspicious reason for it.". The public health official looks at the stats and thinks "The odds of someone either becoming seriously ill or dying from the flu or much much higher than the odds of having side-effects from the vaccination itself". Plus, they would also be much more likely than you or I to think in terms of what the likely infection rate would become if the incidence is X, Y, or Z, and do the computer simulation to estimate and confirm. In other words, what would the infection rate likely become in the days ahead if 10% of the population were infected, as opposed to 5%. Keep in mind that the 10% needn't be made up of people who are lying in bed looking like death warmed over. Ninety-five percent of that 10% could simply be feeling a little under the weather and going into work or school with a few tissues in their pocket "just in case". But with 1 in 10 carrying the virus, the odds of those who might be at even greater risk of succumbing actually coming into contact with the virus go up substantially. In other words, the mass vaccination is not just for YOU personally, but for prophylaxis for the overall population.

People have a tendency to think in very different terms than public health officials/professionals (or rather, they think differently that the rest of us). The congressman who yelled out "You lied" at President Obama was upset about a loophole in the proposed Democratic plan that would hypothetically provide health care to illegal immigrants. He and others of similar belief were upset about what they perceived as a tax burden imposed on U.S. citizens by people who did not "deserve" state-supported health care. I can assure him that uninsured illegal immigrants who do not have health care, yet ride the same buses and subways as "citizens" and work in the very same food-courts where so many "citizens" go to eat their lunches, do not make any point whatsoever of assuring that tax-paying citizens are not the recipients of any bacteria or viruses they happen to be carrying. When they sneeze, they do not discriminate. When they put their hands on the door handles of the bus/subway, they do not discriminate. So allotting health care in terms of who "deserves" it has absolutely no impact on the extent to which the overall public is protected from those who might become carriers simply because have no access to health care and can't afford to NOT go into work.

From a policy and principles perspective, I understand where the Congressman is coming from. From a public health perspective, the man is an idiot. He's like a guy who locks the front and back doors for safety, but leaves the windows open simply because they aren't doors.


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## Fader

Follow the money.

http://h1n1.com.au/tag/conspiracy/


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## shoretyus

hmm 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZBeOp_U_Tg


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## Starbuck

shoretyus said:


> hmm
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZBeOp_U_Tg


That is SO awful! BUT that being "said" I work in an office and I sit facing a gentleman (I use that term loosly) who sits at his desk all day long coughing, hacking, sneezing and never covering his mouth. He has been coughing for about 2 months. I yelled at him to go to the Dr one day and he was very insulted, asking me was I worried and telling me that the Dr is "unnecessary". My co-teamate and I have asked our tema lead to speak with him, but no-one seems to want to tackle the issue. There is another woman who absolutely refuses to wash her hands and tells us it's none of our business. Yes indeed lots of these people walk among us.

I'm not a proponant of anitbacterial anything, as that has lead to the virulence of some of these bacteria such as MRSA ect. However, I do have lysol wipes and use them on door handles and my phone at work once per week. May not actually help, but hopefully will not hurt.

Wash yer hands folks!


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## keeperofthegood

Starbuck said:


> That is SO awful! BUT that being "said" I work in an office and I sit facing a gentleman (I use that term loosly) who sits at his desk all day long coughing, hacking, sneezing and never covering his mouth. He has been coughing for about 2 months. I yelled at him to go to the Dr one day and he was very insulted, asking me was I worried and telling me that the Dr is "unnecessary". My co-teamate and I have asked our tema lead to speak with him, but no-one seems to want to tackle the issue. There is another woman who absolutely refuses to wash her hands and tells us it's none of our business. Yes indeed lots of these people walk among us.
> 
> I'm not a proponant of anitbacterial anything, as that has lead to the virulence of some of these bacteria such as MRSA ect. However, I do have lysol wipes and use them on door handles and my phone at work once per week. May not actually help, but hopefully will not hurt.
> 
> Wash yer hands folks!



You remind me of two things, both of which are really vague half memories. 

One was a stand up comedian (or not) talking about delivering babies (may have been an obgyn really) and how it amazed her all the sterilized table, and tools, and hands, and then you pull a baby out of a vagina :O and what were the plans on sterilizing that! :/ part of the 'foggy' years of memory fail for me so I don't fully recall the who-when but that was the gist of that 

The other was a Swedish or Swiss or somewhere over in that general direction pediatrician. He made news because he wrote a paper ENCOURAGING parents to teach their children to pick their noses.... and eat it  His deal was, the nose is natural catch-all, kills or disables what it catches, and lets you gain controlled exposure by eating it thus building your immune system. I still shudder at the thought but yea >_> we spend a lot of time trying never ever to get ill, and when an 'ill' goes around its like a lawnmower and we are all grass.

edit:
OH! and  My wife is prone to a bacterial cough. Not contagious, usually an antibiotic for a week, but the cough can be persistent and annoying for her and those around her. Getting time off to see the Dr is a pain >.< Both her day off and the Dr's day off are the same day >.< and she needs a months advance notice for taking a day off unless she can swap but for swapping she needs a weeks notice etc etc etc her job does not make it easy on their employees to have a life at all >.<


----------



## mhammer

keeperofthegood said:


> The other was a Swedish or Swiss or somewhere over in that general direction pediatrician. He made news because he wrote a paper ENCOURAGING parents to teach their children to pick their noses.... and eat it  His deal was, the nose is natural catch-all, kills or disables what it catches, and lets you gain controlled exposure by eating it thus building your immune system. I still shudder at the thought but yea >


Although I am unfamiliar with the physician in question, when I used to teach child development, I would note some of the things that children appear to do quite spontaneously may well have some adaptive value we had not understood previously (e.g., pinching oneself in response to discomfort is a kind of primitive version of acupuncture - using intended and directed pain stimulation to mask exogenous painful stimuli). I would then link this to the issue of why certain topics tend to have more research conducted on them than others, asking the class "Would YOU wish to be known as someone who conducted research on children's nose-picking?". It IS quite possible that booger-eating, as disgusting as it is, is a kind of crude self-innoculation. The fact that it is so omnipresent, and that human taste and nasal-discharge composition did not co-evolve so as to make the flavour repugnant to children, suggests that there may BE some adaptive function to it (note that a great many of those substances which are naturally bitter to the human tongue are also toxic, suggesting that human taste evoved to avoid such things). Of course, gven the choice of bringing the kid to the doctor for a vaccination, or blowing bacteria into the runny noses of kids and asking them to chow down, I suspect most parents would choose the former rather than the latter. As Pat Paulsen used to say, "Picky, picky, picky".


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## Big_Daddy

Grandma always said, "We have to eat a peck of dirt before we die." I guess she was on to something there. :smile:


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## Spankin Allison

No way man,i never had any shoots and never will,Plus i'm never sick..Really, i had to call my dad to ask him if i could remember if i've been as a kid..and he told me not from he could remember.Anyway,i got my fair share of responsability, but no person at charge,like kids or invalid family member,So i dont really give a shit about dying,....For me life is a terrible thing anyway.
Frank


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## GuitarsCanada

Spankin Allison said:


> No way man,i never had any shoots and never will,Plus i'm never sick..Really, i had to call my dad to ask him if i could remember if i've been as a kid..and he told me not from he could remember.Anyway,i got my fair share of responsability, but no person at charge,like kids or invalid family member,So i dont really give a shit about dying,....For me life is a terrible thing anyway.
> Frank


Fairly positive attitude. Appreciate the input


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## keeperofthegood

GuitarsCanada said:


> Fairly positive attitude. Appreciate the input



kqoct Yea, since the Trek poll, I have had Worf on the mind too.

Today, is a good day to die!


Though, honestly:
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_MKN_KwIhg]c_MKN_KwIhg[/youtube]


----------



## Starbuck

Well reading the news this morning, I have to wonder why reporters aren't accountable for their work. I mean This strikes fear into the heart of every parent! 

http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/abc/ho...wsitemid=CTVNews/20091027/boy_fludeath_091017

BUT how can they report H1N1 _may_ have been the culprit??? My hearts oges out to the parents of these children.


----------



## keeperofthegood

Starbuck said:


> Well reading the news this morning, I have to wonder why reporters aren't accountable for their work. I mean This strikes fear into the heart of every parent!
> 
> http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/abc/home/contentposting.aspx?isfa=1&feedname=CTV-TOPSTORIES_V3&showbyline=True&date=true&newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20091027%2fboy_fludeath_091017
> 
> BUT how can they report H1N1 _may_ have been the culprit??? My hearts oges out to the parents of these children.


That was a less than a scary spin than what they put it on this story http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/torsun/091027/canada/killer_flu_strikes

Flu does not normally "kill"; it is a non-life ending virus. It has symptoms though, and those do kill. Congestive heart failure, dehydration, triggering underlying health issues. http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/us_flu-related_deaths.htm is how to see and understand your risk. 

So, how does a young person, fit, athletic, not particularly sick and in fact improving, drop dead? How does anyone essentially asymptomatic for the symptoms that do lead to death drop dead? There are only two things. Either he didn't have 'the flu' and had meningitis instead (which looks JUST like the flu, but you drop dead) or as I have been saying, he had a genetic marker that was triggered by the flu virus and we just don't know to test for it yet.

My daughter has had on and off fever for a week now. She is home from school again today. I know she has a chest cold, probably could do with an antibiotic, and that she will get better all on her own. Still, yes, the way these stories read and the absence of reason does leave you, as a parent, looking over your shoulder.


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## Big_Daddy

I have read many accounts of the great flu epidemic that happened near the end of WWI and the symptoms were very similar in several ways. Most of the victims were very young (teens to early 20's) and otherwise very healthy. Many seemed to be getting better, then suddenly died within a 24-hour period. The cause of death was respiratory failure (they drowned in their own fluids). Post mortems showed massive lung damage from bacterial infection, secondary to the virus. It appears that the flu virus paved the way for the bacterial infection which delivered the coup de grace. The number of estimated deaths worldwide ranged from 40-50 million souls.


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## GuitarsCanada

*Ontario teen dies from H1N1*

A healthy 13 year old boy drops dead from H1N1. Whats the deal here?

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/10/27/11535446-sun.html


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## Stonesy

I use that Canadian ginseng extract. Kills cold and the flu in its tracks.
I've spent alot of time the past four years visiting hospitals and haven't caught anything.


----------



## mhammer

Starbuck said:


> Well reading the news this morning, I have to wonder why reporters aren't accountable for their work. I mean This strikes fear into the heart of every parent!
> 
> http://news.sympatico.ctv.ca/abc/ho...wsitemid=CTVNews/20091027/boy_fludeath_091017
> 
> BUT how can they report H1N1 _may_ have been the culprit??? My hearts oges out to the parents of these children.


While a given virus *by itself* may not be life-threatening, in tandem with other existing weak spots in the health of an individual, it *can* be. The problem is that very very few people have much awareness of any of their latent health risks, I mean, it's not like anyone tests you for all the things you might be susceptible to. Indeed, the universal criterion for whether something constitutes a health problem or disability is whether it poses any "functional limitations" to the individual, so if it isn't currently buggering up your life, why would you or your doctor look for it? (_Without wishing to go off on any tangents or thread derailers here, this is precisely the set of ambiguous/nebulous circumstances that has consistently permitted Taser International to weasel out of any liability when deaths arise_).

The qualifier this imposes on any post-mortem, and especially in the case of something with such relatively diffuse symptoms as influenza, is that it _could_ have been something previously undiagnosed, but nobody will know in the absence of a coroner's examination. Unfortunately, it is difficult for any citizen, and especially any parent, to set aside all concerns and say "Meh. I'll worry about it three weeks from now when the coroner's results come out."

Public health policy is a weird weird beast. On the one hand, simple objective evidence is unlikely to be properly extrapolated from by the public, and result in the right level and type of preventative action. On the other hand, the degree of hype and scare tactics it takes to mobilize people and collectively ward off something which could be harmful at the population level tends to elicit conspiratorial suspicions. Things like notions that the "push" is at the behest of the drug companies, or that it is in order for public health officials to "justify" their jobs. Of course, if a large object is hurtling towards someone's head from behind, you tell them to duck, and when they do so the object flys over them, narrowly averting tragedy, there is an excellent chance they will stand up again and look at you like you were wasting their time with your stupid ruse; that there was simply no danger to speak of because they themselves could not see it coming...OR going. 

So, when public health officials see something potentially very big coming their way, scare the public into taking effective preventative action, and that action is sufficient to avert the tragedy, there tends to be two different sorts of outcomes. One is that some people will say "Whew! It's a good thing I followed their advice." The other is that people will say "What a bunch of doofuses! They got everyone all riled up, and for what? There was no problem to begin with!".

How does one respond to the nonoccurrence of a predicted event? Do you assume it was successfully avoided, or do you assume it was falsely predicted? Many will point to the superstitious nature of many religious practices, particularly within primitive pantheistic religions, and note that the sacrifices and superstitious practices were blindly maintained out of the assumption that they produced the nonoccurrence of certain events (e.g., sacrifice the virgin each year and the volcano will stay dormant) or "caused" the occurrence of ostensibly inevitable events (e.g., the change of seasons or waning of a locust infestation). And I think there is some truth to that argument. At the same time, it cannot be that we would *never* be able to see trouble coming and spring into action to prevent it in ways that are poorly explained and poorly understood. I mean, what would be the point of science, or of learning _anything_, if we could never see trouble coming?

And just so you know that this is not just a public health problem, the challenge of understanding and explaining the nonoccurrence or nonobservation of a particular result has been, and remains, one of the single biggest challenges in science.


----------



## keeperofthegood

Mark, that does remind me of the ending of 5Th Element. Unpon the absence of an explosion when the Ruby Rod character then leaves in an angry huff for being put through all that for nothing to have happened.


http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/091027/national/flu_boy_dies

More on that sad passing. But, in all reality, who dies of Flu within 36 hours of the start of symptoms? I know lots die of meningitis in 36 hours but not flu. Even those that are "young and healthy" with underlying conditions don't die that fast.

I am still not going to worry. I keep hearing lots and lots of different numbers, ranging from 1000's to less than 30 and I am going to chose to believe no-one as no-one is getting the story out straight. If the more reputable numbers are to be somewhat believe, it is still a 0.5% death rate, which is still incredibly nothing to worry about. If Scotts numbers are to be believed, it would mean a death rate approaching 50% in some population groups which seems so far in lala land as to be disbelieved. At 50% world travel would be coming to an end, SARS that stupid assed reason to be scared was not that bad and they shut down nations due to it. So, until the information gets sorted out and the story gets told straight, I am just going to continue to live. Odds are better that I will be killed crossing the road given how drive here these days.


----------



## mhammer

keeperofthegood said:


> Mark, that does remind me of the ending of 5Th Element.


terrific flick. Mool-ti-pass. Big bada-boom.:smile:




> But, in all reality, who dies of Flu within 36 hours of the start of symptoms? I know lots die of meningitis in 36 hours but not flu. Even those that are "young and healthy" with underlying conditions don't die that fast.


Will this is precisely why authorities are worried. It's not *like* other flus.


----------



## keeperofthegood

mhammer said:


> terrific flick. Mool-ti-pass. Big bada-boom.:smile:
> 
> 
> 
> Will this is precisely why authorities are worried. It's not *like* other flus.


+1 love that movie. We once counted the "incredible impossibilities" in it, got to 63 defiances of science and reality TOTALLY what a movie should be, entertaining while only giving the appearance of taking itself seriously  Love how the MOON is supposedly supposed to be able to be 63 miles above the ground and just come to a lazy stop :bow:


Yes, this one is different. Too different. The people that have died, have been young, healthy, almost absent of symptoms. It speaks to me that there is more at play than just a flu. I know you know statistics, and you know that systems, like the human health response, are generally predictable to repeated stimuli with some small allowances for deviations. This Flu is a repeated stimuli but the response appears to be dramatically different, more than could be called a deviation. To me, that suggest "smoke" and I would be looking for the "fire". I really wish that someone would take the time to ask for and secure DNA samples of both the victims and the people for whom the experience was just a case of the sniffles, I really do think, like with cigs+cancer, there is something working at the DNA level to cause the death patterns being seen.

You know, another facet to this flu that seems to go overlooked. Lots of media report that seniors have less risk because lots are already immune to it because of the "last time around".  ?? Last time around?? Where was the pandemic alerts and mass vaccinations "the last time around"? If there was a "last time around" wouldn't this time around really and truly be "old hat"?


----------



## torndownunit

Man, I never get flus or colds, but I got absolutely nailed. Last week, around Wednesday, I felt a cold coming on (bit of an earache, bit of congestion). I took my usual steps which is vitamins, supplements, green and white tea etc. A Cold normally will not take hold with me. Friday I felt pretty much fine and figured it was going to this time either. I kept up the routine though just in case.

Saturday around mid-morning, I got hit by unbelievable symptoms. I vomited at least a dozen times. I could not even take a sip of liquids without vomiting. Vomiting till dry heaves, then still vomiting basically. Every joint in my body killed. I am no stranger to bad dehydration, because I have had it with migraines before and had to get IV. I thought I was going to have to go to the hospital mainly to deal with the dehydration. But I was too sick to even get myself there. I figured I was coherent enough to call an ambulance if it got any worse. This went on all night until early Sunday morning.

Anyway, by Sunday the worst of that had passed. I still have some respiratory issues hanging around though. I work outdoors, so to be safe I took yesterday and today off. Working in the cold damp morning when it feels like I have a 5 lb brick in my check likely wouldn't be a good idea. I am going to see how I feel when I wake up in the morning. I decided I am going to take whatever rest I need because this has bounced back on me once already.

I thought about going to the Docs, but flu is flu no matter what kind it is. I could get anti-biotics for the respiratory issues, but they don't seem to be getting worse. The best thing I can do it just rest, and try to avoid giving it to anyone else. I wish people would stop going to work/out when they have these bugs.


----------



## bluesmostly

Do you trust your government and believe that governments work for the people? Do you believe everything that the main stream media reports? Do you ever wonder why only the pro-vaccination experts get air time?

There are experts on both sides of the vaccination argument, look at the evidence from both so you can make a better informed decision. 

A couple of stories (though not reported on the National or in the Globe and Mail) regarding flu vaccines caught me attention recently, you can google these for starters:

-politicians in Europe get different vaccine than public

-a few months ago Baxter was caught sending out weaponized (live virus) vaccines to 18 countries - it is estimated they would have killed hundreds of thousands. they have been contracted to make these vaccines. 

9kkhhd


----------



## david henman

...i'm starting to come around to believing that this vaccine is a good idea for me.

i just want to do the right thing, without my natural skepticism getting in the way.

i've been keeping my ear to the ground but, unfortunately, i've only been getting the local views on this. i need to know what is going on in other cities and other countries.

-dh


----------



## mhammer

bluesmostly said:


> Do you trust your government and believe that governments work for the people? Do you believe everything that the main stream media reports? Do you ever wonder why only the pro-vaccination experts get air time?
> 
> There are experts on both sides of the vaccination argument, look at the evidence from both so you can make a better informed decision.
> 
> A couple of stories (though not reported on the National or in the Globe and Mail) regarding flu vaccines caught me attention recently, you can google these for starters:
> 
> -politicians in Europe get different vaccine than public
> 
> -a few months ago Baxter was caught sending out weaponized (live virus) vaccines to 18 countries - it is estimated they would have killed hundreds of thousands. they have been contracted to make these vaccines.
> 
> 9kkhhd


A little too much X-Files in there for me. 

No single firm has the capability to produce the volume of vaccine needed in the time window sought. Adjuvented vaccine is more compicated to make than non-adjuvented. And when you have rush and high volume, quality control becomes an issue for anything. Of course it shouldn't be for vaccine, but human beings are human beings.

So, the result is that some folks get one form of vaccine while other folks get a different one (early recipients in Canada got non-adjuvented because the adjuvented is still on its way). And someone at one of the facilities screwed up and didn't sufficiently kill the virus.


----------



## Rugburn

We're in the midst of debating whether we'll vaccinate our daughter. She had some kind of bug that had her feverish off and on for over a week. She wound up with upper respitory and ear infections that required antibiotic therapy. We assume this was NOT the H1N1 virus. So the very real possibility that this virus could make her much sicker, worries us. We're in the strange predicament of wanting to do what's best for our little girl, but being highly skeptical of the media circus surrounding the issue. This influenza appears to be hitting children hard in it's second wave, not unlike typical human influenza. Although I'm certain the push to vaccinate is a combination of well-intended and selfish interests, my "spidey-senses" tell me this is really about money in the end. The projected age group that seems to be most affected by this are those who are in the workforce. Retirees and kids essentially don't work. One of the chief concerns in a flu pandemic for governments and the business community, is loss of productivity and hence, money. After a year like we just had, the bean-counters don't want to see any more wide-spread financial losses. This wouldn't be such a bad thing, but we're being herded like sheep who cannot think for ourselves. The draconian spectre of the powers that be fear-mongering the public into accepting an "unknown" solution to an "unknown" problem, is a real component of this "panic". Scott/Guitars Canada mentioned in an earlier post that we are in a constant state of doubt. This appears to be true. That a country like Germany has given vaccine that contains Adjuvant to it's citizens, but has distributed Adjuvant -free vaccine to heads of state, politicians and soldiers, can only add to the mayhem.

Shawn


----------



## bluesmostly

mhammer said:


> A little too much X-Files in there for me.
> 
> No single firm has the capability to produce the volume of vaccine needed in the time window sought. Adjuvented vaccine is more compicated to make than non-adjuvented. And when you have rush and high volume, quality control becomes an issue for anything. Of course it shouldn't be for vaccine, but human beings are human beings.
> 
> So, the result is that some folks get one form of vaccine while other folks get a different one (early recipients in Canada got non-adjuvented because the adjuvented is still on its way). And someone at one of the facilities screwed up and didn't sufficiently kill the virus.


Did you read the article?


----------



## Starbuck

Rugburn said:


> We're in the midst of debating whether we'll vaccinate our daughter. She had some kind of bug that had her feverish off and on for over a week. She wound up with upper respitory and ear infections that required antibiotic therapy. We assume this was NOT the H1N1 virus. So the very real possibility that this virus could make her much sicker, worries us. We're in the strange predicament of wanting to do what's best for our little girl, but being highly skeptical of the media circus surrounding the issue. This influenza appears to be hitting children hard in it's second wave, not unlike typical human influenza. Although I'm certain the push to vaccinate is a combination of well-intended and selfish interests, my "spidey-senses" tell me this is really about money in the end. The projected age group that seems to be most affected by this are those who are in the workforce. Retirees and kids essentially don't work. One of the chief concerns in a flu pandemic for governments and the business community, is loss of productivity and hence, money. After a year like we just had, the bean-counters don't want to see any more wide-spread financial losses. This wouldn't be such a bad thing, but we're being herded like sheep who cannot think for ourselves. The draconian spectre of the powers that be fear-mongering the public into accepting an "unknown" solution to an "unknown" problem, is a real component of this "panic". Scott/Guitars Canada mentioned in an earlier post that we are in a constant state of doubt. This appears to be true. That a country like Germany has given vaccine that contains Adjuvant to it's citizens, but has distributed Adjuvant -free vaccine to heads of state, politicians and soldiers, can only add to the mayhem.
> 
> Shawn


Wow do I hear you! We are in the very same boat! our daughter is 4 and we just don't know what to do. We are strongly leaning towards no as no-one can tell you what's up.


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## keeperofthegood

mhammer said:


> A little too much X-Files in there for me.
> 
> No single firm has the capability to produce the volume of vaccine needed in the time window sought. Adjuvented vaccine is more compicated to make than non-adjuvented. And when you have rush and high volume, quality control becomes an issue for anything. Of course it shouldn't be for vaccine, but human beings are human beings.
> 
> So, the result is that some folks get one form of vaccine while other folks get a different one (early recipients in Canada got non-adjuvented because the adjuvented is still on its way). * And someone at one of the facilities screwed up and didn't sufficiently kill the virus.*



About 20 years ago, I spent half a decade living up in Thunder Bay, Ontario. There was this sweeeeeet little pastries shop there, tended to be expensive but dang they did good pastries. Good shop to get yourself a treat from  and a fav for those "special birthdays" or anniversaries to get a cake from.

One year, a LOT of people got sick. Salmonellae. Lots of it. Lots of sick. The outbreak was initially traced to the shop but on inspection there was nothing that city health could fault with the shop, so they kept looking and they found the eggs they were using we the culprit. So they followed the eggs to an egg farm. They could not fault the egg farm. Eggs are graded, and depending on their use they are diverted, and eggs that carry this salmonellae risk are diverted for cleaning or something or other and were not to be used in making pastries as pastry temps are too low to ensure killing off of salmonellae. It was all a bit convoluted really but then, Thunder Bay news eh XD

Well, the fault finally came to a kid from the High School. A co-op student that flipped/reversed the diversion order for the eggs when sorting...  

Crap happens. I think in the annals of flu shots, it was a Quebec firm that used expired or tainted compounds that made people rather ill. That was a few years back now. It is not impossible, it has happened, but it is rare and infrequent, and usually does come from some blindingly simple aspect of human error.

For instance, what is the long hand of this date?

01/12/10

Is that December 1 2010 or is that January 12 2010? Do you know? I sure don't unless someone told me if it was Canadian (day/month/year) or USA (month/day/year) order. In either case, if that was an expiry date, that is a full years worth of time difference, which in perishable compounds is extreme.


----------



## Rugburn

This is the most reasonable and well thought-out article I've seen yet regarding this whole issue. Please read

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/flu-vaccine-may-come-too-late/article1340822/


Shawn


----------



## Fader

It appears that being old is an advantage because you may have already been exposed to a related virus and may have developed the antibodies to deal with this strain. Young ones are at risk.

Good read here, I trust this source.
http://nejm.highwire.org/cgi/reprint/NEJMoa0906453v1.pdf


----------



## mhammer

Rugburn said:


> This is the most reasonable and well thought-out article I've seen yet regarding this whole issue. Please read
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/flu-vaccine-may-come-too-late/article1340822/
> 
> 
> Shawn


That *was* a decent, well-reasoned piece. Of course conveying all of that to folks who want simple answers and directives of DO this, DON'T do that, is another thing.

Remember, the logic behind use of a wallwart with pedals is even simpler than this to comprehend, yet Boss and other companies decided to simply say "USE OUR SUPPLIES ONLY" because it was easy to convey and grasp, and avoided complications.


----------



## WarrenG

keeperofthegood said:


> For instance, what is the long hand of this date?
> 
> 01/12/10
> 
> Is that December 1 2010 or is that January 12 2010? Do you know? I sure don't unless someone told me if it was Canadian (day/month/year) or USA (month/day/year) order. In either case, if that was an expiry date, that is a full years worth of time difference, which in perishable compounds is extreme.


It could also be December 10, 2001... I always use the ISO convention on all my documentation: 2009-10-28. Sorts correctly. No confusion.


----------



## Rick31797

Don't forget this is no ordinary flue, its a flue that can kill a young healthy person with a healthy strong immune system.

I was against getting this, but now like many in Toronto, i am thinking about getting it., but still not sure about it.
Rick


----------



## torndownunit

Rick31797 said:


> Don't forget this is no ordinary flue, its a flue that can kill a young healthy person with a healthy strong immune system.
> 
> I was against getting this, but now like many in Toronto, i am thinking about getting it., but still not sure about it.
> Rick


This is what I don't really get, and where I think the media is guilty. The FLU is not killing people is it? People have existing complications which the flu effects. In most of the cases I have read about, saying 'the flu killed them' is not technically correct.


----------



## Eager Beaver

torndownunit said:


> This is what I don't really get, and where I think the media is guilty. The FLU is not killing people is it? People have existing complications which the flu effects. In most of the cases I have read about, saying 'the flu killed them' is not technically correct.


Those were my exact thoughts up until the last couple days. Two young, healthy people died in ottawa with NO complications in the last 3 or 4 days. A little bit spooky.


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## Rick31797

The 13 yrs old boy was just playing Hockey two days before he died.. I would not think he had any health issues.
If his strong immune system cannot fight it, mine won't even have a chance. So the seasonal flue that goes around did not kill him, but H1N1 did.
Rick


----------



## Eager Beaver

Rick31797 said:


> The 13 yrs old boy was just playing Hockey two days before he died.. I would not think he had any health issues.
> If his strong immune system cannot fight it, mine won't even have a chance. So the seasonal flue that goes around did not kill him, but H1N1 did.
> Rick


The scariest part of that guy's story to me is that he told his parents that he felt much better that day, and was on his way to take a bath when he collapsed.


----------



## keeperofthegood

torndownunit said:


> This is what I don't really get, and where I think the media is guilty. The FLU is not killing people is it? People have existing complications which the flu effects. In most of the cases I have read about, saying 'the flu killed them' is not technically correct.



Yes, I posted back an half dozen or so posts the CDC link on how it is flu kills. It is, by the vastest majority of instances, the symptoms of the flu that kill. For example, Flu causes congestion in the lungs, you go into respiratory arrest, and die.


That is part of what is making this one "different" because it has happened three times at least in Ontario; killed apparently healthy young people between 10 and 16 and not by symptoms. The young boy that passed the other day was in fact on the recovery when he toppled over and died.

Not only that, it is killing these kids fast, more like meningitis. If you are going to have congestive heart failure, its not going to happen in the first day or two of getting the flu and often you get hospitalized first and the medics try to stabilize you and your in icu and either you live or die; you don't look at your dad and say "I don't feel well" and die before you've hit the floor. So, either there is something we the public are not being told about, or there is a gross level of misdiagnoses happening in the medical community.

However, this is also why I have said that I feel that there is likely a DNA link that has yet to be identified. I think this would also explain why 1918 happened, and 1953 I think it was. Those viri are still with us, genetically no different, yet they are not causing the masses of unexplained deaths. I think it is because there is a DNA link in, and when you don't have a population with that DNA you don't have the deaths, and when you do, and you have that level of die off, then that DNA gets removed from the gene pool so that 20 years later when that strain of flu comes by again, no one dies unexpectedly from causes other than the symptoms because the DNA is now gone.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

HHmmm, do we have some people changing their minds here? I predict (and this is simply my opinion) that we have just begun to see the effects of this flu virus. The flu season has barely begun.


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## Rick31797

I am sitting here now recovering ( i hope )from the flue symptoms , I am so sure i don't have H1N1 as i never did get a high fever, or sore throat.It started Sunday and by yesterday i was feeling better, but today i don't feel as good.
I haven't had a cold or flue in 13 yrs, so maybe this is a sign too get the shot.

I think alot of people have changed there mind when the young boy died. They are afraid for there children and if i had young kids i would also be very afraid..
It certainly is a different world we live in.

But i missed the point about the boy feeling better and then dropping a min later. That is very scary.

Rick


----------



## Rugburn

Rick31797 said:


> It certainly is a different world we live in.
> Rick


 sigiifa This is certainly a different world from the one endured by previous generations during epidemics that saw mortality rates hiit 20%! Don't lose it over this Rick, the boys reaction may likely have been a well established phenomenon. A "cytokin storm" is not an altogether rare reaction to viral diseaese. However, fatalities are unusual. 

http://nursing.advanceweb.com/Editorial/Content/Editorial.aspx?CC=200143

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytokine_storm


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Here is a site maintained by Health Canada that is tracking the flu with all kinds of data, for anyone that is interested. 

FluWatch


----------



## bluesmostly

GuitarsCanada said:


> Here is a site maintained by Health Canada that is tracking the flu with all kinds of data, for anyone that is interested.
> 
> FluWatch


here is another site if anyone is interested:

http://www.fluscam.com/Latest_News.html

best wishes to everyone struggling with this decision, esp if you have children.


----------



## terry9317

*Yes!*



cheezyridr said:


> that's pretty funny. you might as well consult the weekly world news for all the truth and unbiased journalism you'd get from macleans.
> 
> i decided i don't want the vaccine because
> 
> A) the cure was released a full 2 weeks before the outbreak.
> 
> B) the lab that created it is in the same mexican town where the outbreak started.
> 
> C) the world health organization has drawn up plans to use the army, if neccessary, to force people to take the vaccine in the event of a major outbreak.
> 
> i don't want anything i might later be force to take at gunpoint. especially when it contains these ingredients:
> 
> aluminum hydroxide
> aluminum phosphate
> ammonium sulfate
> amphotericin B
> animal tissues: pig blood, horse blood, rabbit brain,
> dog kidney, monkey kidney,
> chick embryo, chicken egg, duck egg
> calf (bovine) serum
> betapropiolactone
> fetal bovine serum
> formaldehyde
> formalin
> gelatin
> glycerol
> human diploid cells (originating from human aborted fetal tissue)
> hydrolized gelatin
> monosodium glutamate (MSG)
> neomycin
> neomycin sulfate
> phenol red indicator
> phenoxyethanol (antifreeze)
> potassium diphosphate
> potassium monophosphate
> polymyxin B
> polysorbate 20
> polysorbate 80
> porcine (pig) pancreatic hydrolysate of casein
> residual MRC5 proteins
> sorbitol
> sucrose
> thimerosal (mercury)
> tributylphosphat e,
> VERO cells, a continuous line of monkey kidney cells
> washed sheep red blood cells
> 
> i read somewhere else that one of the cocktails also contains non active cancer cells. you wanna have any of the above runnin around in your body?



Ah thank god, a brain! Im with this guy!


----------



## Stonesy

Can the same thing happen with over prescribed flu shots as happened with over prescribed antibiotics? Superbug=Supervirus?


----------



## Hypno Toad

H1N1 is _way_ hyped up. The normal influenza kills way more people than the swine flu and I can't be bothered to get a vaccination for that either. I'm not going to sit in line at a clinic for 3 hours waiting to get a shot for something that has a 99.9% percent chance of _not_ killing me, even if I did contract it. All the panic was because people felt insecure that there was no vaccine, not because it actually posed any real threat. People get scared if they are unprotected.


----------



## Stonesy

Is swallowing a noogie the same as eatin' a booger?


----------



## Starbuck

I think eveything at this point is heresy. Be cognizant that flu kills every year. I have a young one and at this point we're going to just say no. I'll monitor my child, teach her to wash her hands more often (that's working quite well) Lysol my door knobs and use common sense. I can't see the common sense in sitting around a clinic for 4 hours with sick people hacking and coughing all over the place.


----------



## mhammer

Look folks, the reason why epidemiologists and public health officials got their knickers in a knot over this in the first place, if you were paying attention at the beginning, was because they said this virus does not appear to be like many known influenza types and may behave in ways we are completely unprepared to contend with. The alarm was not because people were suddenly dropping dead in the streets of Mexico City as if Saddam Hussein was dumping nerve gas on them. It was because:

a) Health history HAS seen some pretty devastating flu pandemics before, and
b) Health officials had no way of knowing a priori if this one would be the same, less than, or worse than, what has been faced during flu seasons of the past.

It's not S.A.R.S., and it's not avian flu, but we've seen some examples of some pretty quick and tragic demises recently. So, the smart thing in past was to get a flu shot to keep the population-wise contagion under control, and it remains the sensible thing to do now.

Certainly one of the things that epidemiologists have to contend with these days, that they didn't factor in 70 or 100 years ago, were things like the huge shifts in human migration as a result of cheap and accessible air travel, and the extent to which so many people live and work in enclosed spaces that recirculate airborne pathogens. So, given the way we jet around, and given the sealed buildings we spend our winters in, epidemiol;ogists and public health officials are concerned that a virus of unknown behaviour could spiral out of control.

Of course, taking sensible precautions in anticipation of it possibly spiralling out of control, is precisely how you keep it from doing so. When the lines thin out a bit, I'm going for my shot, simply because, as a cardiac patient, I am well-advised not to take chances on contracting anything that poses any strain on my circulatory and respiratory system. That includes "normal" flu, and "unusual" flus.


----------



## mhammer

Starbuck said:


> I think eveything at this point is heresy. Be cognizant that flu kills every year. I have a young one and at this point we're going to just say no. I'll monitor my child, teach her to wash her hands more often (that's working quite well) Lysol my door knobs and use common sense. *I can't see the common sense in sitting around a clinic for 4 hours with sick people hacking and coughing all over the place.*


Ah, the paradox of modern medicine! You can provide more care for more people by concentrating them in one spot, but you provide more opportunity for contagion by doing that too.

Trouble with those under 4 years of age is that they can't and don't keep their snot to themselves. When our older son was in daycare, we noted a distinct drop in contracted illnesses once he and his classmates hit around 3 and a half.


----------



## mrmatt1972

*Some facts, stats and a cdc video link*

FYI

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=14950


----------



## Rick31797

Why are not people getting the difference between h1n1 and the seasonal flue.
why are they saying the seasonal flue kills more people, when we know thats true " SO Far" BUT

People that die from the seasonal flue "ALREADY have health Complications> And most are seniors.

Can you see the Difference?? H1N1 kills young healthy children., any age group it chooses. The seasonal flue Does not.
I don't know how much clearer i can make it.

Is H1N1 all hype up??... try explaining it too the father on TV the other night crying because he had just lost his boy and best friend.

Does anybody think Sars was just hype up.

Rick


----------



## lbrown1

Rick31797 said:


> Why are not people getting the difference between h1n1 and the seasonal flue.
> why are they saying the seasonal flue kills more people, when we know thats true " SO Far" BUT
> 
> People that die from the seasonal flue "ALREADY have health Complications> And most are seniors.
> 
> Can you see the Difference?? H1N1 kills young healthy children., any age group it chooses. The seasonal flue Does not.
> I don't know how much clearer i can make it.
> 
> Is H1N1 all hype up??... try explaining it too the father on TV the other night crying because he had just lost his boy and best friend.
> 
> Does anybody think Sars was just hype up.
> 
> Rick



because we're not doctors and we hear the term "flu" in its description...we've been hearing about new strains of the "flu" for years.....if this is truly that different - and it may be - then it's been poorly marketed as such...the hype and scare is there - but the backup to it is "oh - it's just a flu

if it was originally referred to something more sinister sounding - I think public opinion would be different.....i.e. nobody (I don't think) ever debated weather or not to take the polio vaccine...polio was marketed as a really miserable affliction.....and it is.....but if it were called "the polio flu" - people would be "aw man - it's just the flu"

my 2 cents and observation

I still ain't takin that Tamiflu shot though


----------



## david henman

...i'm starting to come down off the fence on this. it is after all, a vaccine, and we have been well-served by vaccines for tb, polio, measles etc.

i have zero faith in big pharma, but the fact that most doctors appear to be unanimously in favour of the vaccine is compelling. i'm not inclined to suspect that they are somehow part of a conspiracy.

i got a huge kick out of the old coot on talk radio this morning announcing that he wouldn't be getting the shot because he's tired of government telling him what to do...:smilie_flagge17:

of course, i'm low risk, so by the time they get around to me the whole issue could very well be moot.

-dh


----------



## Starbuck

*Deja vu?*

[youtube=Option]HEJyUgt7lY8[/youtube]


----------



## GuitarsCanada

lbrown1 said:


> because we're not doctors and we hear the term "flu" in its description...we've been hearing about new strains of the "flu" for years.....if this is truly that different - and it may be - then it's been poorly marketed as such...the hype and scare is there - but the backup to it is "oh - it's just a flu
> 
> if it was originally referred to something more sinister sounding - I think public opinion would be different.....i.e. nobody (I don't think) ever debated weather or not to take the polio vaccine...polio was marketed as a really miserable affliction.....and it is.....but if it were called "the polio flu" - people would be "aw man - it's just the flu"
> 
> my 2 cents and observation
> 
> I still ain't takin that Tamiflu shot though


Tamiflu shot? You better do some more research


----------



## Starbuck

GuitarsCanada said:


> Tamiflu shot? You better do some more research


I read today about Mt Sinai and the hospital staff taking Tamiflu as a precaution. I thought that was a big no-no. Kinda like the over prescribing of antibiotics, potentially with the same result (drug resistant strains) You just don't know what to believe anymore. Sometimes I think it would be easier to make these kinds of decision if we didn't have access to so much information.


----------



## Big_Daddy

Starbuck said:


> [youtube=Option]HEJyUgt7lY8[/youtube]


Nice find, Starbuck. Interesting, isn't it, that the 1918 pandemic started in an Army camp near Philadelphia? Sick troops boarded ships to go overseas and spread it throughout Europe and on and on.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Starbuck said:


> I read today about Mt Sinai and the hospital staff taking Tamiflu as a precaution. I thought that was a big no-no. Kinda like the over prescribing of antibiotics, potentially with the same result (drug resistant strains) You just don't know what to believe anymore. Sometimes I think it would be easier to make these kinds of decision if we didn't have access to so much information.


On the same note. A buddy of mine has been sick for about a month now. The first week he thought he was dying, fever, aches, you name it. He went to the doctors and they put him and his wife on Tamiflu. Turns out he has mono.


----------



## Big_Daddy

How well do medical schools in the USA insulate their students, faculty and doctors from the money, free product samples and other gifts offered by drug and medical-device companies? 

The rankings were jointly released yesterday by the American Medical Student Association of Reston, Va., and the Pew Prescription Project of Boston, a branch of the Pew Charitable Trusts. The association collected conflict-of-interest policies from the nation's 149 medical schools, and Pew analyzed them in a process that concealed the names of the colleges. 

Of the nation's 149 medical schools, nine — including three in California — received an A from the American Medical Student Association for their conflict-of-interest rules. 

Forty-five schools, or 30 percent, received an A or B. That was up from 29 schools, or nearly 20 percent, last year.

_*The score card's authors gave C's and D's to 35 schools, and they flunked 35 others for not submitting information or having significantly lax policies. No grades were given to 34 campuses that were in the process of adopting ethics rules. *_

BTW, the above text is all taken from this report. I do not hate doctors, or even Big Pharma for that matter. However, after hearing from a friend who went through medical school about the pressure and influence exerted by pharmaceutical companies on medical students, I feel strongly that something must be done about the obvious conflicts of interest that may arise from this.


----------



## mhammer

david henman said:


> ...i'm starting to come down off the fence on this. it is after all, a vaccine, and we have been well-served by vaccines for tb, polio, measles etc.
> 
> i have zero faith in big pharma, but the fact that most doctors appear to be unanimously in favour of the vaccine is compelling. i'm not inclined to suspect that they are somehow part of a conspiracy.
> 
> i got a huge kick out of the old coot on talk radio this morning announcing that he wouldn't be getting the shot because he's tired of government telling him what to do...:smilie_flagge17:
> 
> of course, i'm low risk, so by the time they get around to me the whole issue could very well be moot.
> 
> -dh


I regularly deal with folks whose stock in trade is the issue of "trust in government", and whose central concern is how to improve it. The fact of the matter is that one cannot shrug off the dumb stuff that government does, or the many seemingly insignificant ways that officials breach trust, because when push comes to shove and they really really really need you to trust them, because its a matter of life and death, people respond with "Well why should I?".


----------



## Oakvillain

Fellas,

I work for pharma and there is a reason why brand name drugs are expensive. We are forced to perform good science. Period. Sure there are companies that withhold key clinical information and they eventually get found out but you gotta put your trust in something. When Jonas Salk invented the Polio vaccine someone had to take a chance. He didn't nearly do the science we do now. Don't get me started on Banting and Best and antibiotics.

If the government, or your doctor, or your pharma company or WHO is out to get you then you have more to worry about than just the flu. Might I suggest a good psychotherapist. 

It's up to you. I'm not getting rich. Just do your research and then make an informed decision for yourself and your loved ones. If you're reading this forum to make an informed decision you've clearly made a mistake.

Good luck.

Ps. I'm getting one cuz I usually do and I'm still around...


----------



## Rick31797

The only thing that is concerning me, is all drugs have to be approved through health Canada. The clinical drug trials can take years, and this Vaccine never made it through the process. They didn't have the time.. so they pushed it through and depended on another countries clinical trials data., i believe was Britain.

Canada is so strict on new medications and protecting the public, this may be the first time, they didn't have a choice, and hopefully it don't come back on them.
Nobody knows what the long term effects will be, but if you don't have the protection, there may be no long term to think about.Its the roll of the dice.

It's also up to each person to decide , I am just getting over the flue and, i am at very low risk, as i am hardly out of the house , especially this time of year, but i went out for 1 yr and ended up getting the bug. It can happen so easy, and its invisible.

Rick


----------



## Bevo

Interesting topic!

I just got over something with very much the same symtoms as H1N1 and it was not to bad. Because of an eye issue I cant take cold medication and did not, no problem.

Saying that the hockey player kid that just died was on a coworkers grandsons team..Crappy for that family..

So my girl and her daughter are getting it and I will make sure they do. Me I am very opposed to drugs of any kind and since having that flue I think I will pass.

End of the day if you are not strong and healthy its best for you, not to mention if you fit in that high risk group.
Make up your mind but make sure you do your homework.

In the mean time eat well get plenty of rest/exercise and stop licking your fingers!!!


----------



## Nohtanhoj

Most likely for me.... I'm in a "high risk" group according to Health Canada - the 18-22 student demographic.


----------



## Rick31797

The Dr on City TV said that, this H1N1 with be with us for years and it will come in waves, usually last for 12 weeks , then gone then back again. He says people that don't get the Vaccine has a 1 in 4 chance of getting the virus. doesn;t mean they will die from it. But interesting Facts.

People in the high risk group, get a different kind of vaccine that gives a extra boost too the immune system. That is what is being given out now. 
Rick


----------



## bluesmostly

Rick31797 said:


> Why are not people getting the difference between h1n1 and the seasonal flue.
> why are they saying the seasonal flue kills more people, when we know thats true " SO Far" BUT
> 
> People that die from the seasonal flue "ALREADY have health Complications> And most are seniors.
> 
> Can you see the Difference?? H1N1 kills young healthy children., any age group it chooses. The seasonal flue Does not.
> I don't know how much clearer i can make it.
> 
> Is H1N1 all hype up??... try explaining it too the father on TV the other night crying because he had just lost his boy and best friend.
> 
> Does anybody think Sars was just hype up.
> 
> Rick


don't think H1N1 is the same, nobody I know of does either. 

Don't think it isn't dangerous, potentially very much so, nobody I know says it isn't. 

Does the vaccination help prevent it? not convinced. 

Is the vaccine harmless? not convinced.


----------



## torndownunit

bluesmostly said:


> don't think H1N1 is the same, nobody I know of does either.
> 
> Don't think it isn't dangerous, potentially very much so, nobody I know says it isn't.
> 
> Does the vaccination help prevent it? not convinced.
> 
> Is the vaccine harmless? not convinced.


This is my problem as well. I am not a conspiracy theorist in any way. And I don't think anyone is out to intentionally harm us with vaccines. But North American society has become so 'drug crazy' that people don't even think twice about what medications they put in their body. Everyone has to make their own decision on the matter, but I definitely don't think there is anything wrong with people questioning what they are taking. I think it's more of a problem when people AREN'T doing that at all anymore.


----------



## Starbuck

bluesmostly said:


> don't think H1N1 is the same, nobody I know of does either.
> 
> Don't think it isn't dangerous, potentially very much so, nobody I know says it isn't.
> 
> Does the vaccination help prevent it? not convinced.
> 
> Is the vaccine harmless? not convinced.


Me too, and I think for most of us on the fence, this is how we feel. I have been speaking with EVERYONE, co-workers, parents at my kids school and it's pretty 50/50. For us with kids, it's a really difficult decision. "Well if I don't get it for her and she gets sick..., but if I did get it for her and there was some awful consequence.." 

Yes this flu is an unknown, however It is my hope that the tragic deaths of those two children were an anomaly due to some other mitigating factor we don't yet know about. A lady that I go to a class with on Wed night told me that in the spring, her boy's class had H1N1. 15 of 22 kids had it, both her boys did and it wasn't so bad. 

It's fear of the unknown.


----------



## david henman

Rick31797 said:


> People in the high risk group, get a different kind of vaccine that gives a extra boost too the immune system. That is what is being given out now. Rick



...we live in a "me first" society. whether its any different now than 50 or 100 years ago, i have no idea.

but announcing that "no one will be turned away" is a literal invititation to the "me first" types to jump the queue to get ahead of many of those in the high risk group.

yesterday, that is precisely what they did.

pathetic.

-dh


----------



## Starbuck

david henman said:


> ...we live in a "me first" society. whether its any different now than 50 or 100 years ago, i have no idea.
> 
> but announcing that "no one will be turned away" is a literal invititation to the "me first" types to jump the queue to get ahead of many of those in the high risk group.
> 
> yesterday, that is precisely what they did.
> 
> pathetic.
> 
> -dh


So here is a good question. Should the health care providers be turning away folks who do not fall into that category? For myself, one of the factors influencing our decision is weather or not I want to queue up in long, long lines with a 4 year old who does NOT have a high tolerance to such things. Nor do I want to be exposed to the masses with coughs ect...

maybe it would make sense for them to have someone doing "triage" and moving the high risk folk to the front?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Starbuck said:


> So here is a good question. Should the health care providers be turning away folks who do not fall into that category? For myself, one of the factors influencing our decision is weather or not I want to queue up in long, long lines with a 4 year old who does NOT have a high tolerance to such things. Nor do I want to be exposed to the masses with coughs ect...


I don't think there would be any way for them to judge. They can't test you on the spot and then put you in some category. They are essentially counting on the person themselves to make the decision as to whether they fit that category or not.


----------



## mhammer

There are some very easy ways for people to be sorted. Birth certificates or other valid age-ID can help, and certainly expectant mothers can be readily identified.

As for whether the vaccine poses any harm, *of course it does*. That's how they work! However, the harm they pose is a manageable one. It is essentially like burning ahead of the fire. The vaccinated individual receives a beaten and defeated form of the virus, which their own immune system would normally be capable of beating quite easily. They then develop antibodies in response to it, such that should they be exposed to the real deal, their immune system is primed and ready.

Now, it does happen that sometimes the Argos or the Leafs win a game. So, although the virus presented in the vaccination is technically disabled, sometimes the immune system of the recipient does not respond sufficiently to do the job it was supposed to do in conjunction with the vaccine. And I imagine there are researchers working on how to identify such people right now since such isolated cases nonetheless pose obstacles to effective application of public health initiatives.

Here in Ottawa, I heard our chief medical official interviewed the other day. He was asked why the city's public health department had elected to go with centralized injection sites, rather than distribute the vaccine to doctors' offices as well. The response was that a focus group of doctors some weeks back had indicated that at best 3 in 10 doctors would be willing to give the injections, and that most doctors' offices were not equipped to refrigerate the vaccine in the quantities it would arrive in. Moreover, there was concern that they would be squandering vaccine, since it comes in bottles of 10 injections, and if they only ended up giving 6 or 7 shots, that would mean that 3-4 would be sitting unused. Hmmm, sounds a bit like the decision to use FAT32 vs NTFS, or partition your hard drive into smaller partitions, doesn't it? Do I *really* want each sector to be 8k?

Personally, I think he got the wrong focus groups. Although, I think the anticipated demand was likely very different at the time. Now, after a couple of high profile tragedies, people are lining up yelling "Save me, save me", so the system planned out a month ago is a poor fit to the current situation.


----------



## guitarman2

I did some of my own planning at the beginning of the summer. I decided to get my self a little healthier so that I'd have some natural immunities to the flu. 
I decided to drop some weight as I was eating rather unhealthy so I improved my nutrition and exercised a bit more and went from 190 pounds to the trimmer 165 that I am now. 
I've been eating garlic (organic) and making sure that I have good flora through probiotics. There are other things I'm doing for which I won't go in to detail.
I am electing not to take the vaccine. By the time they get around to me I doubt that it would do any good anyway. 
My wife has been sick all week with something and so far it hasn't shown signs of spreading to me. With my full time job and gigging every single weekend I just don't have time to be sick. So hopefully I don't.


----------



## Rick31797

From the start i don't think they could have changed the outcome, of people waiting for many hrs and then being turn away.
They where only allow so much supply of the vaccine ( i think it was 750,000)
That wasn't enough to keep all the clinic running 24 hrs.

And then the child dies and everybody panic's.They cannot turn people away if there not in a high risk group after they are waiting many hrs, but it sounds like they tryed to.
I have some health issue's and there is no way i could stand, sit or lay out there for 5 hrs waiting for a shot.
Rick


----------



## david henman

guitarman2 said:


> I decided to drop some weight as I was eating rather unhealthy so I improved my nutrition and exercised a bit more and went from 190 pounds to the trimmer 165 that I am now.



...yep, same here, 190 down to 165. well, actually, i'm stalled at 170, because i need to switch from pork, lamb and beef to chicken, fish and seafood. in any case, nothing compares to the sense of feeling healthy.

some interesting stuff out there about mega doses of vitamin D, but i'll wait until the facts are in before heading to costco.

-dh


----------



## david henman

Rick31797 said:


> They cannot turn people away if there not in a high risk group after they are waiting many hrs...Rick


...i don't see why not.

-dh


----------



## Rick31797

...i don't see why not.

More of a humane decision, rather that whats right and whats wrong.And of course they don't need anymore bad media.
Rick


----------



## Beatles

Lets see what happens now. Here's a hot off the press atricle from the Toronto Star:

WINDSOR–Canada is facing a dramatic shortage of H1N1 flu vaccine that will mean a scaling back of mass incoculation efforts, Ontario Health Minister Deb Matthews said today. 

Matthews said the federal government advised the province that there are only 500,000 doses of the vaccine available from the manufacturer for next week for the entire country. 

That means Ontario – which received 700,000 doses this week and expected 1 million next week – will only get 170,000 over the coming week.

"We just received word that we are going to be getting less than 20 per cent of what we expected to get," said an ashen-faced Matthews, who cut short a weekend in Windsor for the Ontario Liberal Party's annual general meeting to fly back to Toronto to deal with the shortage crisis. 

"So we are now revising our strategy ... to respond to this news," she said. 

"It's a production issue at GlaxoSmithKline, I understand."


----------



## guitarman2

david henman said:


> some interesting stuff out there about mega doses of vitamin D, but i'll wait until the facts are in before heading to costco.
> 
> -dh


All you can do is research and experiment to find out what works for you as an individual. Thats why I never give too much advice based on my own experience for what works. Different methods work for different people. 
As waiting for the facts to come in, I think you'd have to get the experts to agree on something for it to become fact. That will likely never happen.
I shy away from concepts like "mega doses" or overdoing anything. The best approach to anything is balance.


----------



## Fader

I'm trying Siberian Ginseng. So far so good.


----------



## guitarman2

Fader said:


> I'm trying Siberian Ginseng. So far so good.


Where are you getting it?


----------



## Spankin Allison

Eat SPICY...chilli,garlic,ginger and lots of vedgies,and curry is not bad also to kill the germs.
My girlfriend is from Thailland, so i got no problem with that...Belive me.

Frank:smile:


----------



## guitarman2

From the latest news reports living as healthy as possible may be the only form of vaccine some of us can count on. It seems that next week they are not going to be recieving near the amount of vaccine they had originally anticipated. The firemen and paramedics union is pissed because their members won't be allowed vaccine until the middle of November. For anyone not in a high risk category, they may never recieve any kind of vaccine immunization for H1N1.
I just heard this on the way home on 640 AM


----------



## guitarman2

Spankin Allison said:


> Eat SPICY...chilli,garlic,ginger and lots of vedgies,and curry is not bad also to kill the germs.
> My girlfriend is from Thailland, so i got no problem with that...Belive me.
> 
> Frank:smile:



I just had a spicey falafel for lunch and they made it extra spicy beyond the norm. 
I eat lots of extra hot cayenne, so hopefully this will in some way help.


----------



## Rick31797

I just had a spicey falafel for lunch and they made it extra spicy beyond the norm. 
I eat lots of extra hot cayenne, so hopefully this will in some way help.


YEP... That would keep me away.. LOL
Rick


----------



## Rugburn

Folks here are touching on a good point, but things like echinacea, Siberian and North American ginseng only cut it as a part of an overall health regimen. I always chuckle at people that go out and get all these "natural" and "organic" medications, preparations and herbs when they start feeling bad. It doesn't work that way, man. If your already sick you might as well do what I do, and get the maximum strength Neo Citran-type crystal pouches. Oh, it doesn't do a damn thing for the virus or your immune system, but you won't be awake to care. :smile:


----------



## NIK0

I'm going to stick with a good multi vitamin, garlic and a selected boost of other vitamins, Omegas, minerals and supplements to keep the immune system up. Exercise, good sleep and hand washing. And skip the shot. Why aren't they pushing these suggestions so heavily like they do with the flu shot. Or even push it along site the flu shot adverts and news. Its obvious that these options work better then nothing. It is also obvious how much the body requires proper levels of minerals and vitamins to operate correctly. Besides its just the flu, you just don't hear about all the 13 year olds that pass away from pneumonia and complications of regular seasonal flu, cause it doesn't make news, its not interesting enough and doesn't make people money. 

I just see far too much deception, monopolies, corporatism wrapped around the US and Canada governments to trust something like this or the regular flu shot being stuck in my arm every year. 

This decade has been the decade of scare tactics, all of which have created obvious benefits, that have been realized by our governments. Really I'm getting sick of it. 911, anthrax, terrorist's, bin laden, weapons of mass destruction, SARs, bird flu, swine flu, what IS next oxygen flu, sun light flu. I start to laugh at the TV news so much now a days really I just turn it off. I have better things to accomplish.

The sheep will follow, hide in their basements, do what their told and be controlled by fear and it is obviously still working for 90% of the public. Its not something new. Its been going on over and over in batches every decade for various different countries for hundreds of years. I mean why try something new? Stick with what works. 

How are mass populations controlled and manipulated? Fear and Debt. I find it funny that along with all the scare tactics that went on, the whole mortgage failure was so perfectly orchestrated. The people were in fear, but living it up, spend spend spend. Now where is a good portion of North America, in fear and in debt. Now for final scene in their production. I'm also concerned that another point of control has been added to that list, weak and sick. So I've weighed my options and we are not talking about Ebola here or something, so I'll take my chances and keep clear of suspicious government orchestrated mass population vaccinations for now.

About 35,000 people died of complications from the flu last year. Maybe if it reaches beyond that death toll I may review the vaccine again.
If its worse this year. I can see its because of the horrible nutrition, lack of vitamins, high stress and minimal sleep most of the population gets now a days, especially the American population.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1z7KSEnyxw

http://www.whale.to/vaccine/ayoub_v.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O95P1agEME&feature=related 



Notes from another blogger: 

_The Swine Flu is an orchestrated attempt to spread fear and chaos into the population and to try to get people vaccinated, which everyone should know contains mercury that damages your nervous system. Mercury, of course, is one of the most toxic substances you can put in a human body. It is a heavy metal known to contribute to neurological disorders, including autism, dementia, and even Alzheimer's disease. Mercury also tends to build up in tissues in the human body and is not easily removed, so even small exposures to mercury can accumulate over time and end up compromising the health of the person involved. Baxter, the makers of the flu vaccines was caught putting live bird flu in the vaccines and making people get more sick and ill with the help of the World Health Organization (WHO). DO NOT TAKE THE VACCINE! Unless of course you want to have the possibility of dying and destroying your immune system and have all sorts of side effects and you are determined for your own personal destruction - then by all means get it. If you are an intelligent person and not a sheep who cannot critically think for yourself - research further and you will come to the conclusion that this vaccine is a big scam and should not enter one single human body._


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Paranoia seems to be running rampant, from all directions


----------



## torndownunit

Rugburn said:


> Folks here are touching on a good point, but things like echinacea, Siberian and North American ginseng only cut it as a part of an overall health regimen. I always chuckle at people that go out and get all these "natural" and "organic" medications, preparations and herbs when they start feeling bad. It doesn't work that way, man. If your already sick you might as well do what I do, and get the maximum strength Neo Citran-type crystal pouches. Oh, it doesn't do a damn thing for the virus or your immune system, but you won't be awake to care. :smile:


If you live an unhealthy lifestyle where you eat like crap, and have no activity, none of those supplements will do a thing. Unless you have some insane genetics, which some people do, there will be consequences for an unhealthy lifestyle. For a person health person with a good immune system, I do believe taking some of those supplements *at the right time* (when you first feel symptoms) can be helpful.

I firmly believe living a healthy lifestyle to build a good immune system is the way to go. That being said though, I got absolutely hammered by the flu (which when calling my Dr's was informed it's very likely H1N1) and I can't seem to shake it. I never get colds, flus or anything else other than my chronic migraines (which are different thing all together). But this thing hit me like a truck.


----------



## Blue Apple

Well, I got the shot today and lived to talk about it.

I have a bad case of Asthma, my wife is 25 weeks pregnant and we have a 2 1/2 year old. After researching it to death, we felt it was the right decision *for us*.

On a side note, we just learned this evening that a little girl that goes to my son's day care is in an induced coma due to complications from the H1N1 virus. She had to get air lifted to Toronto since CHEO can't accept anymore patient... healthy little girl. Crazy stuff.


----------



## Rick31797

There is a Show on tonight at 11pm on PBS ( Second Opinion : H1N1 special Edition. 1 hr show.
If anybody is interest in watching it. Its on star choice channel 364.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Interesting that since the beggining of this poll that the votes for yes have surpassed the no votes. Actually, the no votes were way ahead at one point.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Blue Apple said:


> Well, I got the shot today and lived to talk about it.


I went down and got mine too. I feel alright, Marnie say's I don't look too good... but I feel fine.


----------



## Blue Apple

GuitarsCanada said:


> I went down and got mine too. I feel alright, Marnie say's I don't look too good... but I feel fine.


Meah. Minor side effect... Didn't you read the disclaimer before signing it???


----------



## GuitarsCanada

I must have missed that on the label, damn it. Some would call it an improvement. On a serious note. I am going down when the lines cool down and get my shot.

Update from FluWatch



> Summary of FluWatch Findings for the
> Week ending October 24, 2009
> 
> Striking increases in overall influenza activity were reported this week. All indicators (proportion of positive influenza tests, national ILI consultation rate, number of regions reporting widespread activity and number of influenza outbreaks) were considerably higher this week compared to the previous weeks. There is increased influenza activity across the country, particularly in the West (BC, AB, SK, NT) and in NL.
> This week, 99.7% of the positive influenza A subtyped specimens were Pandemic (H1N1) 2009.
> The intensity of Pandemic (H1N1) 2009 in the population was moderate with 175 hospitalizations and 9 deaths reported this week. Hospitalized cases were reported from BC, AB, ON, QC, NB and NT while the deaths were from BC, AB and ON. As of October 24, 2009, a total of 1,779 hospitalized cases including 351 cases admitted to an intensive care unit (ICU) and 185 cases required ventilation as well as 92 deaths had been reported since the beginning of the pandemic. Numbers of new hospitalizations, ICU admissions and deaths reported this week were approximatively three times higher than last week.
> Compared to other prescriptions filled in Canada, the sale of antivirals suggested pronounced increases in ON and Western NL.
> The Minister of Health announced on October 23, 2009, that Canada has officially entered the second wave of Pandemic (H1N1) 2009.


----------



## bluesmostly

GuitarsCanada said:


> Interesting that since the beggining of this poll that the votes for yes have surpassed the no votes. Actually, the no votes were way ahead at one point.



I don't doubt it, and that seems to match the trend in the national averages. the media blitz has been relentless. 

I find it interesting that the newspapers, radio and tv programs are full of experts, all of them pro-vaccine, answering questions and concerns - the anti-vaccine doctors and research experts are not given a voice.


----------



## Fader

guitarman2 said:


> Where are you getting it?


Shoppers Drug Mart and Walmart have limited selections of natural herbs at reasonable prices, but don't expect the staff to know anything.

A health food store would be a better bet if you need assistance, but expect to pay a little more.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

I know one thing. Flu pandemic or not there is no way I am standing in a line for 8-9 hours in the rain right now at these clinics. There are literally thousands of people lining up. There were people in Toronto lining up at 6:00 am to get into a clinic that opened at noon. People need to calm down, and stop wearing those bloody surgical masks. 

This is not the black plague, it's a flu strain.


----------



## bluesmostly

they are still saying that the chances of severe or fatal illness is very low with this virus (so far). 

another thing to remember/consider is that the Spanish Flu that killed around 40 million worldwide was fatal to between 1-2 % of those that contracted the virus - and most of those had been vaccinated.


----------



## cheezyridr

toronto star had an article today that seemed to suggest it might be better not to get the shot. i almost never get the paper, i only got it this time for the classifieds. i don't know it's a good paper or not.


----------



## Rugburn

I went over to a friends for a kids Halloween night dinner/party and their eldest son started vomitting and coughing with a high fever. Countdown to "DOOM"!! 

Shawn


----------



## mhammer

Just listened to an absolutely fascinating interview with medical historian Michael Bliss on The Sunday Edition (CBC Radio One) about the smallpox epidemic in 1880"s Montreal, and the parallels with today's H1N1 pandemic. A lot of fascinating tidbits about the history of vaccination, the eternal struggle to find balance between fostering panic and fostering practical-minded indifference, and historical arcs of vaccines. One of the intriguing things is the historical reluctance to become vaccinated in Quebec, a trend that continues.

It will be converted to a podcast in a couple of days, though I imagine if you are reading thsi early enough today, you can simply direct your browser to CBC Radio and listen to streamed audio from one of the western timezones.


----------



## keeperofthegood

http://www.cbc.ca/thesundayedition/

hwopv Sniffles


----------



## EchoWD40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScGC7nFDxM
yea i will stay my white ass away from almost every shot that target specific stuff.


----------



## Lemonhand

I think I would rather catch it and build up my own immunity.


----------



## Rick31797

I really don't think you would want too catch it.. depends on your age, if you 60, 70 or 80 you have a better chance of getting through it easier then 24 yrs and younger.
Rick


----------



## mhammer

Lemonhand said:


> I think I would rather catch it and build up my own immunity.


It takes a while to build up an immunity. Indeed, even with direct administration of the virus expressly for the purpose of building up an immunity (which is what a vaccination is) it takes several weeks. Normally, when you come down with "the flu" and are back on your feet in a few days, that's because you already have some degree of immunity acquired from having had very similar influenza viruses in past. What got the epidemiologists and public health folks so anxious was that the H1N1 bears no relation to known viruses in the recent past. Hence, nobody would be expected to have any sort of acquired partial immunity. That's why the push for mass-vaccination: to make up for what people were not able to acquire in past.

Now, of course, a vaccination is not instant protection. So, if you walk around feeling like you're bulletproof in the days and weeks following a vaccination, there is a reasonably good chance that you could still come down with it before the immunity is built up. So be smart. Take precautions. Get a shot....and take more precautions.


----------



## gtone

No way am I putting that vaccine in my body!! Sorry kids...


----------



## EGBDF

I've been coming across lots of scattered bits of info out there that claims the break down of the composition of this virus... four parts this, two parts that, two parts other... unnatural combinations... separate accelerated maturation of the parts... lots of signs pointing to the fact that it's man-made, in a lab. There doesn't seem to be a lot of talk about that stuff (yet) as everyone is panicking and discussing the obvious yes/no of getting the shot or not. Not saying it is, or it isn't, but it's got my curiosity peaked nonetheless. I wonder how that part of it unfolds, with the "who" and "how"... if it does at all.


----------



## mhammer

Um, let me get this straight. You are talking about the origins of the virus itself? or the composition of the vaccine?


----------



## Rugburn

EGBDF said:


> I've been coming across lots of scattered bits of info out there that claims the break down of the composition of this virus... four parts this, two parts that, two parts other... unnatural combinations... separate accelerated maturation of the parts... lots of signs pointing to the fact that it's man-made, in a lab. There doesn't seem to be a lot of talk about that stuff (yet) as everyone is panicking and discussing the obvious yes/no of getting the shot or not. Not saying it is, or it isn't, but it's got my curiosity peaked nonetheless. I wonder how that part of it unfolds, with the "who" and "how"... if it does at all.


I hear this "made in a lab" crap now and again. That's X-Files calibre silliness. What "they" don't want to talk about are the origins of this virus. Recall the early reports about the pig farm where it's believed the virus first emerged? A disease like this is the result of uncontrolled microbiological pathogens getting down and having a party, not orderly lab work. Rather than looking for evil and secret organizations that build labs to concoct "plague" viruses, how about taking a hard look at something far more widespread and real; modern farming.


----------



## Rick31797

Some people are not trusting the Vaccine because they remember the swine flue scare in 1976, and a Vaccine was developed.
That Vaccine that was giving too people also caused the terrible illness called GBS (Guillain Barre syndrome) 1 in 100,000 people got this illness. Becuase no matter, how much they tests a new vaccine they can never tell you 100% that it's safe. The true test is too give it too people and monitor it for many years too see what happens.This Vaccine is not the same as the one in 1976.

And theyalso say the levels of mercury are so low, you would get more from a can of tuna., becuase there some that link the mercury levels in the flue vaccine to Autism.
The mercury is there for a preservative., the way i understand it.

Also something i did not know is, They tell people the first signs of feeling sick stay home.. so you don't spread it.
But actually you are spreading the virus before you even feel sick..Thats why they want all people that are involved with healthcare too get the shot as they think, if they feel sick they can stay home but its really too late.

Rick


----------



## EGBDF

Oh, wow. Boy, do I ever feel silly for being curious about something outside of your field of obvious expertise... I hadn't realized this was THAT kind of forum. Apologies.
:bow:

_You obviously work for the government and have been placed here to patrol the board and squalch any info "they" don't want getting out!!!!!!_










Sheesh.


----------



## Rugburn

EGBDF said:


> Oh, wow. Boy, do I ever feel silly for being curious about something outside of your field of obvious expertise... I hadn't realized this was THAT kind of forum. Apologies.
> :bow:


"Unnatural combinations", "accelerated maturation of parts", and "lots of signs this is man-made". This *is* outside of my area of expertise. I'll need my trusty "flux capacitor" to wrap my head around this stuff. What can I say, I'm a little tired of all this hearsay and sci-fi working it's way into the equation. I'm inclined to believe we're responsible for this alright. Only like the link between farmed Civet cats and S.A.R.S, or Chicken farms and Avian Flu, my perpective has some history and science behind it. 

Shawn


----------



## Jaggery

I thought that normal public could start taking the shots from today.
Nov 2.

It seems it has been delayed quite a bit.

Even if I do take the vaccine, I will wait till the wait times are decent.

I am not standing for 4-6 hours.


----------



## lyric girl

I have never gotten a flu shot in my life (47 years) and I'm not starting now. Not only do I have one of the risk factors (asthma), but I work in a friggen hospital, but not as a care giver.

Personally, I think if you take care of yourself e.g. washing your hands frequently, staying home from work when you are sick, etc., then you should be fine. This is my opinion and I know it's not for everyone.


----------



## Starbuck

Rugburn said:


> I went over to a friends for a kids Halloween night dinner/party and their eldest son started vomitting and coughing with a high fever. Countdown to "DOOM"!!
> 
> Shawn


Well tis the season after all. Sometimes warm, sometimes cool, mostly wet. Try getting a 4 year old to stay covered up outside when they should. They pretty much always have a cold this time of year.

It's the fear mongering and heresy that is quite out of control. Since that poor young man died last week I've spoken with lots of folk who's neighbors kid played hockey with him and from what I hear he was either perfectly healthy or had severe ashtma. 

Adjuvented or non? GSK can't keep up the supply cause they have to produce two different kinds of vaccine. Lots of people who are perfectly healthy thought it was a good idea to try to get to the front of the line. I have heard from one person that the lines were getting quite out of control at one arena on the weekend and police were involved. Seems folks common sense has fled the scene.

Me? I'm high risk, I have asthma, but I think standing in line in the rain for 6 hours is not a prudent move on my part, let alone with a 4 year old. Health Canada predicts that there will be enough vaccine for everyone to get it by December 1st. This will hopefully be a memory by then. Just my POV.


----------



## EGBDF

Rugburn said:


> "Unnatural combinations", "accelerated maturation of parts", and "lots of signs this is man-made". This *is* outside of my area of expertise. I'll need my trusty "flux capacitor" to wrap my head around this stuff. What can I say, I'm a little tired of all this hearsay and sci-fi working it's way into the equation. I'm inclined to believe we're responsible for this alright. Only like the link between farmed Civet cats and S.A.R.S, or Chicken farms and Avian Flu, my perpective has some history and science behind it.
> 
> Shawn


Glad you're moved by what I'd posted. You might have misinterpreted my intent.
And you might be surprised to find that our views and opinions are probably very similar. I was merely putting it out there for matter of discussion, that I'd seen something that peaked my curiosity. I was far from hoping to spin it in to the next great vestige of misinformation. I am by nature, a fence-sitter. I like to survey what both camps are saying before I decide for myself - and _certainly_ before I ever open my mouth. I DO love a good discussion. Coincidentally, most often based on history and science as well! 
:wave:


----------



## Big_Daddy

My brother, who is 63 and just had triple bypass surgery, is in the high risk group and was advised to get the shot. He did, two days ago, and has been sick as a dog ever since. ?????


----------



## mhammer

I am in the same cateory as your brother (though a couple years younger), and plan on getting poked as soon as the lines thin out a bit. I get my flu shot every year, feel a little crappy for a few days, but am just fine the rest of the winter.

I find it interesting the way that folks can continue to buy lottery tickets week after week with a substantially smaller likelihood of being "selected", confident that any moment now they will be staggeringly wealthy, while they are equally convinced that something which will be contracted by a single or double-digit percentage of the population will somehow manage to zip right past them because, for a half dozen winters now, they haven't gotten sick. The laws of probability apply equally when it comes to positive and negative outcomes, though usually people tend to evaluate them differently depending on outcome type.

I think Starbuck's weighing of the pros and cons of the process of getting vaccinated is eminently sensible. It is sensible to get vaccinated, but equally sensible not to place oneself in the close company of a lot of people for hours on end under inhospitable climatic conditions. There are a million and one ways to get sick, quite apart from influenzas, and being in the company of people with runny noses and coughs is not an exceptionally efficient way to avoid all million and one. Even if there were no H1N1 to be concerned over, your mother would probably caution you against standing in such lineups for health reasons, despite how hard it was to get those concert tickets or how much you wanted to get a cheap PS3 at Future Shop on Boxing Day.

I reiterate my earlier question to EGBDF. Please clarify.

Incidentally, please do not vote more than once in the poll. I'm not accusing anyone. I just want the poll to reflect the distribution of opinions *across* members, not the enthusiasm of opinion in a select bunch. It becomes more informative for everyone that way.


----------



## EGBDF

Sorry. The origins.


----------



## mhammer

EGBDF said:


> Sorry. The origins.


Okay. When one considers the prospects for viruses and bacteria changing of their own accord within a very short time span, the necessity of human intervention to "create" them drops off the landscape. Keep in mind that the time frame required for a species like our own to acquire new DNA and "evolve" is on the order of thousands of years, while the time frame for single-celled or non-cellular organisms (i.e., viruses) to evolve is on the order of weeks or months, given how long each "generation" takes to be produced. This is how we have things like "superbugs" developing in hospitals. http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081103132953AAfbFGr

When something like H1N1 crops up and grabs the spotlight, those who do not try to stay on top of such things may perceive it as conspicuous and somehow occurring without explanation. That the virus has the extreme effect it does may suggest something deliberate. The fact is that viruses are mutating all around us constantly. Once in a while, by chance, something mutates in a way, and in a location, that easily takes advantage of where humans are, how they congregate and interact, and how their physiology functions. That's how it was with avian flu and SARS. Viruses are like lottery tickets; every once in a while, one of the millions of different ones becomes a "winner".

When weaponized diseases are developed, it is extremely rare that the disease (whether microbial or viral) is "created". Rather, what is created is the means for delivery in a controllable form. Whatever justifiable antipathy one might have towards biological warfare, I can assure you that:
a) it's not a "weapon" unless you can consistently contain it until you're ready to use it, so the focus is on containable/controllable things, and 
b) the researchers are also civil servants, with public sector union representation that demand the employer provide safe work conditions....or else.

If one lives in fear of loss of quality-control at the water treatment plant, or loss of food inspection at wherever they make President's Choice stuff, or loss of effective disposal of "sharps" at the local hospital, or leaks in the natural gas pipes of your workplace, or any of a zillion things that hypothetically CAN happen but rarely, if ever, do happen, then yeah I can see some apprehension about such "government facilities". But there is absolutely nothing about H1N1 that even remotely suggests such a source for it.

The spread of such things is unfortunately a byproduct of two things: the increased tendency for people to live in cities, the increased tendency for humans to be internationally and quickly mobile via auto and air travel. If it were 200 years ago, we might hear about H1N1 a year or two after it had decimated Mexico City via travellers' tales, but its' pandemic likelihood would be negligible. Nobody would be coming back from vacation in Cancun as a carrier and confined to an airplane cabin with 150 others in a recirculated air environment...who would then switch planes in Toronto and then head off in 20 different directions.

I hope that provides a reasoned, and not dismissive-sounding, response to your question.


----------



## david henman

...by the time they get around to vaccinating us low-risk types, flu season will be over.

me-first types can either jump the queue, as many have already done, or pay for their shots at a private clinic. they are, obviously, superior to the rest of us plebes.

-dh





Jaggery said:


> I thought that normal public could start taking the shots from today.
> Nov 2.
> 
> It seems it has been delayed quite a bit.
> 
> Even if I do take the vaccine, I will wait till the wait times are decent.
> 
> I am not standing for 4-6 hours.


----------



## guitarman2

david henman said:


> ...by the time they get around to vaccinating us low-risk types, flu season will be over.
> 
> me-first types can either jump the queue, as many have already done, or pay for their shots at a private clinic. they are, obviously, superior to the rest of us plebes.
> 
> -dh


gawd you sure are bitter about life. But I agree with you that there won't be much point in a flu shot by the time they get around to low risk candidates. It doesn't look like they'll ever have enough for everyone this year.


----------



## Rugburn

david henman said:


> ...by the time they get around to vaccinating us low-risk types, flu season will be over.
> 
> me-first types can either jump the queue, as many have already done, or pay for their shots at a private clinic. they are, obviously, superior to the rest of us plebes.
> 
> -dh


Exactly, as far as the public health response is concerned, what we've seen is as good as it's going to get. I'm peering into my crystal ball right now!!, and ... I see...yes, yes...it's coming clearer, pundits and blowhards fuming over "the media's" sensationalizing this flu and how it adversely affected an otherwise "flawless" public health campaign. Sure the media is far from balanced and well reasoned on this issue (or most other news), but at what point do we blame the "queue jumpers" and others for freely panicking and acting selfishly? 

Shawn


----------



## mhammer

Viruses are not like those merchants that show up in shopping mall hallways in mid-November peddling products that will be popular for one Xmas and no longer. That there is an identifiable "flu season" is simply a statement that the incidence tends to peak when people spend a lot of time indoors in close quarters. But the risk does not disappear when that peak subsides. People catch influenzas all year long. The incidence simply goes up during "flu season".

Is it possible a person would develop their own antibodies to it by the time the season is over without having a major case? Sure. But just because it's out of the news, and just because you weren't sick doesn't mean you have developed the antibodies and are now bulletproof.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

We have to try and control the paranoia and fear mongering.


----------



## JeS89

lol only after the lineups gone down


----------



## keeperofthegood

mhammer said:


> Viruses are not like those merchants that show up in shopping mall hallways in mid-November peddling products that will be popular for one Xmas and no longer. That there is an identifiable "flu season" is simply a statement that the incidence tends to peak when people spend a lot of time indoors in close quarters. But the risk does not disappear when that peak subsides. People catch influenzas all year long. The incidence simply goes up during "flu season".
> 
> Is it possible a person would develop their own antibodies to it by the time the season is over without having a major case? Sure. But just because it's out of the news, and just because you weren't sick doesn't mean you have developed the antibodies and are now bulletproof.


I was ill, so was my family, in the middle of summer when here this flu was the talk of the town. Since then, there has been little report of it. If it is to be accepted that once a strain peeks in a community, that community is pretty much finished with it, then I think here in Burlington, it is pretty much said its say. 

I do think the odds are good I have had it. I know the odds of my getting a seasonal flu shot this year are good, and the odds of getting the H1N1 shot are nill 

And yea, the "back to school" viral rush is never fun  Kids go all over the globe on summer vacations and bring home loads of sniffles. Then their parents offload their now sniffling kids to schools, and my kids end up staying home for 2 weeks with sniffles. Now, me, my son, my daughter, AND my wife all have ear infections  its such a sad-go-round!


----------



## GuitarsCanada

If nothing else, this has been a facinating study into what the mass information highway we live in today can do in a situation like this. On one end of the spectrum you have panic and on the other end a total lack of interest and mis-trust. Facinating.


----------



## david henman

guitarman2 said:


> gawd you sure are bitter about life.



...really? get to know me, you'll find i'm quite the little miss sunshine.

:wave:


----------



## david henman

GuitarsCanada said:


> If nothing else, this has been a facinating study into what the mass information highway we live in today can do in a situation like this. On one end of the spectrum you have panic and on the other end a total lack of interest and mis-trust. Facinating.


...leaf talk is in the sports and gaming forum.

:smile:


----------



## Starbuck

david henman said:


> ...leaf talk is in the sports and gaming forum.
> 
> :smile:


LOL! We still need that rimshot smilie!


----------



## Robert1950

Got my H1N1 vaccine today at my family doctor at noon. Just starting to feel the sore arm around 9:30 pm. Apparently the agent used to carry it can make some people feel like they have been punched in the arm - a vitamin E and salmon oil blend or something.

I'll repeat what I said earlier. I work with some people who likely haven't washed their hands in week, let alone get them to try hand sanitizer. It's a matter of weighing the risks.


----------



## Stonesy




----------



## keeperofthegood




----------



## Starbuck

Stonesy said:


>


That reminds me of this. And since this is a forum dedicated to music...

[youtube=Option]AG8fugqFn9Q[/youtube]


----------



## shoretyus

Rugburn said:


> What can I say, I'm a little tired of all this hearsay and sci-fi working it's way into the equation. I'm inclined to believe we're responsible for this alright. Only like the link between farmed Civet cats and S.A.R.S, or Chicken farms and Avian Flu, my perpective has some history and science behind it.
> 
> Shawn


Have read the whole thread.. so if I miss something slap me..... The pig farm in Mexico had 1 million pigs....locals have been sick for years.


----------



## Rugburn

shoretyus said:


> Have read the whole thread.. so if I miss something slap me..... The pig farm in Mexico had 1 million pigs....locals have been sick for years.


Not to get too political or whatever, but anyone who tells you our food supply is very safe and highly nutritious is full of shit. The benifits of choosing locally grown and/or organic foods are vast. It's better for you and your family's health. It's better for farmers and securing the "family farm" for future generations. Phasing out large scale livestock operations would probably proove more effective than trying to control/contain novel viruses after the fact. If this seems like a "Mexican" problem, look into the quality of well water in Quebec's pig farming country. So many are considered unsafe. it churns the stomach. Sad truth, pigs produce more manure pound for pound than any other livestock. Can't turn it all into fertilizer.


----------



## bluesmostly

Rugburn said:


> Not to get too political or whatever, but anyone who tells you our food supply is very safe and highly nutritious is full of shit. The benifits of choosing locally grown and/or organic foods are vast. It's better for you and your family's health. It's better for farmers and securing the "family farm" for future generations. Phasing out large scale livestock operations would probably proove more effective than trying to control/contain novel viruses after the fact. If this seems like a "Mexican" problem, look into the quality of well water in Quebec's pig farming country. So many are considered unsafe. it churns the stomach. Sad truth, pigs produce more manure pound for pound than any other livestock. Can't turn it all into fertilizer.


I agree with this for sure, factory farming of livestock is incredibly unhealthy, inhumane and unsustainable. the trend towards getting back to small family runned operations for all of our food needs is very good.


----------



## mhammer

Robert1950 said:


> Got my H1N1 vaccine today at my family doctor at noon. Just starting to feel the sore arm around 9:30 pm. Apparently the agent used to carry it can make some people feel like they have been punched in the arm


EVERY flu shot feels that way. It goes away after 2 days or so.

Every year I invariably find myself mumbling "Hmm, why does my arm hurt so much? Oh yeah. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiigggghhhht."


----------



## GuitarsCanada

A little more perspective for us all.



> Suicide rates in Japan have risen this year amid economic woes, and could surpass the record 34,427 deaths in 2003.
> 
> Last year, nearly 2,000 people committed suicide in Japan by jumping in front of a train, about 6 per cent of such deaths nationwide.
> 
> In Tokyo, the number of suicides at stations run by East Japan Railways rose to 68 for the year through March from 42 two years earlier.
> 
> That's causing more train delays, with conductors describing them over public address systems as "human accidents."


Source: Canoe


----------



## Starbuck

mhammer said:


> EVERY flu shot feels that way. It goes away after 2 days or so.
> 
> Every year I invariably find myself mumbling "Hmm, why does my arm hurt so much? Oh yeah. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiigggghhhht."


Yeah but today I clicked on a alarming headline about "Side effects of H1N1!!" And it was some woman complaining about a sore arm, aches and pains and general malaise. THAT's Reportable! More like so what? If you have a bug and get the flu shot, you'll get sick. Aches and pains and especially soreness in the injection site are COMPLETELY normal.


----------



## keeperofthegood

mhammer said:


> EVERY flu shot feels that way. It goes away after 2 days or so.
> 
> Every year I invariably find myself mumbling "Hmm, why does my arm hurt so much? Oh yeah. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiigggghhhht."





Starbuck said:


> Yeah but today I clicked on a alarming headline about "Side effects of H1N1!!" And it was some woman complaining about a sore arm, aches and pains and general malaise. THAT's Reportable! More like so what? If you have a bug and get the flu shot, you'll get sick. Aches and pains and especially soreness in the injection site are COMPLETELY normal.



Thats odd, other then the "ouch" factor, I never notice flu shots. Then or later. To my arms it is less impact than a softball.

The point where 'normal' becomes 'abnormal' is, I find, very poorly defined in words people that are 'common joes' can understand. From my personal experiences of "that was nothing" to others who two weeks later are still feeling the injection is a very broad time range, and range of sensations. There is also that old 60 Mins show (thanks for posting that ) that also demonstrates that changing pain and numbness is not normal even though pain and numbness can be normal. I get the impression it's like moles. If it looks like a mole today, and looks like the same mole tomorrow, odds are it is a mole. Otherwise it could be cancer and it is time for a biopsy. 

Bigger trouble is, I bet people have no idea what their moles really looked like yesterday.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

I find that with the usual flu shot that I get a little discomfort in the injection site, a little sore for maybe a day or two. But I also normally feel like crap for about 2 days, almost as if I am coming down with something. Only about 2 days of that and then its back to normal.


----------



## shoretyus

Rugburn said:


> Not to get too political or whatever, but anyone who tells you our food supply is very safe and highly nutritious is full of shit.



On to the other debate... The Feds are about to review the Hog market. They are going to fund those who are profitable and convince the ones that aren't to get out of the market. Odds are the big boys will get the moola and those ( whom were forced into this style of farming by the big boys) smaller ones will be squeezed out. 

Anybody want the name of the smaller farmer that I get my beef from ... not organic because he won't pay for the licences etc. 

Lets hear it for the Hundred mile diet. Ra Ra


----------



## Starbuck

shoretyus said:


> On to the other debate... The Feds are about to review the Hog market. They are going to fund those who are profitable and convince the ones that aren't to get out of the market. Odds are the big boys will get the moola and those ( whom were forced into this style of farming by the big boys) smaller ones will be squeezed out.
> 
> Anybody want the name of the smaller farmer that I get my beef from ... not organic because he won't pay for the licences etc.
> 
> Lets hear it for the Hundred mile diet. Ra Ra


Meh, organic is a crock anyway. We buy freezer beef from a local farmer and my husband hunts (I'm NOT going there so don't bother) We try to eat as healthy as possible and avoid processed foods. That's all you can do really.


----------



## Rick31797

I have had many many, needles and i can tell you for a fact, it depends on who does the injection for the sudden ouch factor. Some nurses have the touch and others don't. not sure what they do different other then maybe the angle of the needle.
I had nurse take blood out once and jab me right on top of the forearm right into the muscle, not sure why she did that but it was all bruised up for a week.

Once the injection is done its all up to the person what reaction they get.
Rick


----------



## shoretyus

Starbuck said:


> my husband hunts (I'm NOT going there so don't bother)


Ha... tis' the season of orange here now..... man I don't feel bad about having a bit o' gear that I get to use ALL year ... the end


----------



## mhammer

Rick31797 said:


> I have had many many, needles and i can tell you for a fact, it depends on who does the injection for the sudden ouch factor. Some nurses have the touch and others don't. not sure what they do different other then maybe the angle of the needle.
> I had nurse take blood out once and jab me right on top of the forearm right into the muscle, not sure why she did that but it was all bruised up for a week.
> 
> Once the injection is done its all up to the person what reaction they get.
> Rick


Some do "give good needle" and others not so much. Intro-muscular injections (which vaccinations are) feel different that intra-venous ones. Intra-venous *withdrawal* feels different than intra-venous *injection*. In the one instance, the needle is being used to gradually decrease the local pressure in the vessel by decreasing volume, while in the other the local pressureis being increased by the addition of volume. Higher rates of fluid movement going in are more painful than the same rate going out. When nurses/technicians take blood, the positioning of the needle, relative to the vascular wall, can vary. Puncturing the blood vessel and going far enough that the needle tip is poking the inner wall of the side opposite where the needle went in results in more discomfort than poking through and situating the needle tip smack in the middle of the vessel with space all around.

My wife used to take blood samples every morning at the hospital, back when she worked with the so-called "sh** and sp** crew". The hardest part for her was taking samples from the anorexics and the elderly, because the loss of muscle mass meant their blood vessels would not stay put, and flopped around. You need a sturdy stable target to give needles painlessly.

In the case of vaccinations, the volume is small, but the space where the injection goes is not ideally equipped for expanding to accommodate the fluid. So, the injection is slow. Slow enough that the injector might accidentally wiggle the needle, making the difference between those who give more and less painful vaccinations.

One again, I remind people that vaccinations work by presenting your body with something that is challenging and foreign enough that it demands an immune response. Of course, much of what we subjectively feel when ill IS the totality of an immune response (e.g., runny nose, stuffiness, fever), so it is no wonder people feel a bit crappy during those first few days post-vaccination. If it is an exaggerated, or accelerated reaction, that is one thing, but simply not feeling so hot is part of the normal response to a useful vaccination. The "up to the person what reaction they get" should not be interpreted as implying that their attitude makes a difference. Some folks DO show more exaggerated immune response than others, though.

Your choice. You can have 2 days of sitting on the couch, clicking the remote, cancelling plans with friends and feeling kinda blah. Or you can have a couple weeks of "Please God, take me now!!".


----------



## Rugburn

Starbuck said:


> Meh, organic is a crock anyway.



If your citing the study by the British Food Standards Agency that made headlines in September, you may be interested to know that it is being discredited for it's poor methodology. Crops were compared that were NOT grown in the same soil or under the same conditions. Nutrient levels were the main thrust of the study. It's been well known for some time that nutrient levels in cereal crops, potatoes and a handful of other staples is roughly the same in both. The issue isn't always about the health of the crop, but rather the farmland and ground water, also not inckuded in this study. The worst oversight was the lack of any data on antioxidant and phenolic acid concentrations. Meat was not included in this study either. This report supports the continuation of food standards that are some of the worst in Europe and North America. Like anything else, there are those who want to jump on the bandwagon and make a few bucks, but that doesn't make it a "crock".

http://www.organic-center.org/reportfiles/Response_FSA_Study.pdf


----------



## Starbuck

Rugburn said:


> If your citing the study by the British Food Standards Agency that made headlines in September, you may be interested to know that it is being discredited for it's poor methodology. Crops were compared that were NOT grown in the same soil or under the same conditions. Nutrient levels were the main thrust of the study. It's been well known for some time that nutrient levels in cereal crops, potatoes and a handful of other staples is roughly the same in both. The issue isn't always about the health of the crop, but rather the farmland and ground water, also not inckuded in this study. The worst oversight was the lack of any data on antioxidant and phenolic acid concentrations. Meat was not included in this study either. This report supports the continuation of food standards that are some of the worst in Europe and North America. Like anything else, there are those who want to jump on the bandwagon and make a few bucks, but that doesn't make it a "crock".
> 
> http://www.organic-center.org/reportfiles/Response_FSA_Study.pdf



That's not what I'm refering to at all. I live near lots of farmers who have told me plenty. I can't remember the name of the documentary, but look up Monsanto being sued by an organic wheat farmer. Unless you're growing in a sealed barn somewhere it's pretty hard to avoid cross pollination and contamination.


----------



## Rugburn

Percy Schmeiser won an out of coiurt settlement against Monsanto last year. In the agreement there is a stipulation that should Monsanto's Round-Up ready gene contaminate his crop again, he reserves the right to file suit. The little guy won! At any rate this doesn't make organic farming a "crock", it's our right!


----------



## keeperofthegood

kqoct I will wade in on the organic issue.

GMO is gene modified organism
Organic is a loose term, mostly specifying the grow and care conditions.

A GMO plant can be Organic if it is grown in Organic conditions set out by whatever standards group you want to cite.

GMO happens by two means. You can do 40 generations using selective breading, or you can just nip and tuck the DNA, for the most part it amounts to the same end result (FOR the most part, wont go into practices I agree or disagree with like putting fish oil genes in potatoes).

I will eat "Organic" when I can. Mostly that means when I can afford it. If I can get up Guelph Ln, way way way out of town, there is a slew of Organic crop producers and free range duck farmers. WAY worth the drive, the getting out, the crawling on hands and knees through the scrub to find, dig out, and then pay for Organic carrots and the like.  The kids LOVED it and the food tastes miles better, makes portion control and eating satisfaction much better too.

Now, I have to agree that "organic" is a crock. To the extent that it is not a federal food standard term. It is not tightly regulated, nor monitored. You simply have to take on faith what you are buying IS organic and not "organic the last week before harvest". Worse than this, you are faced with pricing double the non-organics pricing. Concidering the vast quantities of farms that made the connection "no pesticide overhead + lower growing costs + people really want it bruised and with a worm in it = MUCH higher prices for the same stuff" that now do "organic" that much higher price should be significantly down to where it is pretty much cost even to be or not to be organic. 

Dang, gotta rush but  yea, I like organic, I just don't like paying for it.


----------



## keto

And then we have our fun little situation in Alberta. To give a few highlights

-clinics are first open to everyone. Lineups are hours and hours in urban locales

-the gov't shuts down the whole system, saying they are going to run out and so are making a new plan for delivery

-the Calgary Flames and their families are given a private clinic and all get their shots. The media cries foul and today a senior official is fired.

-further word, story still developing, is that several oil co's have paid a big premium to the Alberta gov't to have their workers immunized. If true (and there are many many many many rumours out there about who has or hasn't jumped the queue), more heads will roll

-meanwhile, the gov't is now rolling out a new program. Kids under 5 can get their shots starting tomorrow, pregnant women Thurs or Fri. One radio caller states that shut ins (elderly, permanently disabled) in long term care facilities (including those with immunodeficiency disorders) have nothing as at this writing

-I'm not sure if this is Federal or Provincial, but prisoners have been immunized. In related news, I hurt myself rolling my eyes *that far* back in my head.

-health care workers in other jurisdictions are under fire for having their kids done at the same time as they got their shots. More queue jumping, more media sensationalism.

What.A.Gigantic.Crock.Of.Shit. From the media, to the poor gov't response, I mean all of it. 

On specific topic, I don't really care at this point if I get a shot or not - if the opportunity presents and isn't a monstrous inconvenience, I will. I have no concerns about any potential health risks either way. Specifically, I think this whole furor is more media frenzy than potential pandemic (qualifying to say that my definition of pandemic, that hundreds of thousands or millions die, may differ from the clinical definition, which boundary I understand we may have passed at this point).


----------



## Robert1950

Robert1950 said:


> ... Just starting to feel the sore arm around 9:30 pm. Apparently the agent used to carry it can make some people feel like they have been punched in the arm ...


Felt nothing this morning or for the rest of the day. I'm good.


----------



## Robert1950

mhammer said:


> EVERY flu shot feels that way. It goes away after 2 days or so.


Apparently this flu shot packs bigger punch in the arm than the regular Tamiflu,... according to my doctor and three other people I know who've had it. I appear to be the only one who hardly felt anything. The nursing student on placement at our agency found it harder to lift arm. My co-worker's husband said it felt like he'd been hit hard.


----------



## shoretyus

Robert1950 said:


> Felt nothing this morning or for the rest of the day. I'm good.


Comfortably Numb?....... insert drum roll here.


So I just took my Homeopathiic flue powders this morning. My wife got them from a friend of ours. No line up no pain...


----------



## Big_Daddy

shoretyus said:


> So I just took my Homeopathiic flue powders this morning. My wife got them from a friend of ours. No line up no pain...


Ditto, along with some herbal immune boosters (which I do _every_ year, btw). :smile::smile::smile:


----------



## david henman

...yup, that's the crux of it: how does one tell where the media frenzy ends and the reality begins???

-dh




keto said:


> And then we have our fun little situation in Alberta. To give a few highlights
> 
> -clinics are first open to everyone. Lineups are hours and hours in urban locales
> 
> -the gov't shuts down the whole system, saying they are going to run out and so are making a new plan for delivery
> 
> -the Calgary Flames and their families are given a private clinic and all get their shots. The media cries foul and today a senior official is fired.
> 
> -further word, story still developing, is that several oil co's have paid a big premium to the Alberta gov't to have their workers immunized. If true (and there are many many many many rumours out there about who has or hasn't jumped the queue), more heads will roll
> 
> -meanwhile, the gov't is now rolling out a new program. Kids under 5 can get their shots starting tomorrow, pregnant women Thurs or Fri. One radio caller states that shut ins (elderly, permanently disabled) in long term care facilities (including those with immunodeficiency disorders) have nothing as at this writing
> 
> -I'm not sure if this is Federal or Provincial, but prisoners have been immunized. In related news, I hurt myself rolling my eyes *that far* back in my head.
> 
> -health care workers in other jurisdictions are under fire for having their kids done at the same time as they got their shots. More queue jumping, more media sensationalism.
> 
> What.A.Gigantic.Crock.Of.Shit. From the media, to the poor gov't response, I mean all of it.
> 
> On specific topic, I don't really care at this point if I get a shot or not - if the opportunity presents and isn't a monstrous inconvenience, I will. I have no concerns about any potential health risks either way. Specifically, I think this whole furor is more media frenzy than potential pandemic (qualifying to say that my definition of pandemic, that hundreds of thousands or millions die, may differ from the clinical definition, which boundary I understand we may have passed at this point).


----------



## ajcoholic

Robert1950 said:


> Apparently this flu shot packs bigger punch in the arm than the regular Tamiflu,... according to my doctor and three other people I know who've had it. I appear to be the only one who hardly felt anything. The nursing student on placement at our agency found it harder to lift arm. My co-worker's husband said it felt like he'd been hit hard.


Every year when I get the regular flu shot I feel like someone slugged me in the arm. Like was stated before everyone feels the effects of getting a wire stick into their muscle tissue differently...

AJC


----------



## Milkman

Every year when I studiously receive my flu shot, I get deathly ill within a week or two.

I have been assured (each year) that there is no connection, that it's not possible for the shot to cause me to develop bronchitis and on at least one occasion, pneumonia.

Nevertheless, last year I opted out and instead of being sick from November until January, I got over it within two weeks.

What would YOU do?


I'll take the flu if necessary.


----------



## guitarman2

Milkman said:


> Every year when I studiously receive my flu shot, I get deathly ill within a week or two.
> 
> I have been assured (each year) that there is no connection, that it's not possible for the shot to cause me to develop bronchitis and on at least one occasion, pneumonia.
> 
> Nevertheless, last year I opted out and instead of being sick from November until January, I got over it within two weeks.
> 
> What would YOU do?
> 
> 
> I'll take the flu if necessary.


I only ever got the flu shot one year. It didn't make me ill but I wasn't anymore immune then the years without flu shot.
About 20 years ago I came down with a bad case of flu and I couldn't shake it for 3 months. I was at the doctor for prescription after prescription of anti biotics. The antibiotics basically wiped me out and I had no immunity to anything.
I ate and lived very badly. I cleaned up my health exercised a little and took probiotics. Ever since when I do get the flu it is much milder and doesn't hang around long
Since the spring I decided to kick it up a notch and get rid of 90% of the processed foods I've been eating and address areas of my health with even more scrutiny, in anticipation of this swine flu thing. I don't know how it will go getting through this swine flu epidemic but I have to believe that addressing this in a more natural way is better then letting a doctor inject chemicals in to me.


----------



## mhammer

Whether this makes you "bulletproof" is a matter for debate, but I would heartily concur that it is *always* better to face any health challenge while in robust form.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

mhammer said:


> Whether this makes you "bulletproof" is a matter for debate, but I would heartily concur that it is *always* better to face any health challenge while in robust form.


I would agree. I was out last night with 4 blokes I used to work with at GM many moons ago. One of them just took a buy-out and early retirement so we were out to celebrate. We finished off 2 large pizza's with double hot peppers, 50 wings, a chocolate cake and about a gallon of beer. We feel ready for anything at this time.


----------



## brownman

I did being in the high risk health care profession...my responsibility to be well to take of the sick.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

*Fear and Loathing in the H1N1 Line*

Brutal nonsense continues.



> NEW YORK, Nov 5 (Reuters Life!) - New York City health officials scrambled to explain themselves Thursday following outraged media reports about bankers who got scarce H1N1 flu vaccines through their employers.
> 
> Although there is a longstanding arrangement for employers to provide seasonal flu shots to workers, the city health department was bombarded with calls and television reports about Wall Street workers jumping the line ahead of pregnant women and children.
> 
> “It’s bad enough that Wall Street crashed our economy and is back to paying out platinum bonuses after taking trillions in taxpayer-funded bailouts and backstops,” Service Employees International Union Secretary-Treasurer Anna Burger said in a statement.
> 
> “But purposely endangering the health of millions of Americans during a public health crisis crosses all lines of decency.”


----------



## arloskay

Two of my kids have been sick this week, and they tested positive for H1N1. Luckily, it was no worse than a regular cold for the most part, although one of them also tested positive for strep. I think I may be coming down with it now, which will make the whole issue of getting the vaccine or not moot.


----------



## keeperofthegood

arloskay said:


> Two of my kids have been sick this week, and they tested positive for H1N1. Luckily, it was no worse than a regular cold for the most part, although one of them also tested positive for strep. I think I may be coming down with it now, which will make the whole issue of getting the vaccine or not moot.


If you remain well in the face of a cough of flu, you are either already immune or well able to fend it off. But if you have been in the face of cough for long enough to be tested and confirmed ... well, the horses are gone already so you may as well plan on some mint tea and telly time.

EDIT: And chamomile tea too. Good natural muscle relaxant, and helps you sleep when ill.


----------



## warplanegrey

I caught H1N1 when I was in California. I was mildly to moderately sick for about 5 days. It wasn't any worse than the common cold, but with a slight fever for 2 of the days, and an evening of feeling like I was going to throw up (which I didn't).

Ordinary, healthy people are more likely to die from a train derailing than from the swine flu.

And apprently, those who have contracted and overcome H1N1 are still encouraged to get the vaccination. Wtf is with that?


----------



## Robert1950

Another of my co-workers got the shot and she is experiencing mild flue symptoms, mostly muscle aches. She can hardly lift her arm. Her sister got sick - nausea and vomiting. However, both of them are Bolivia, so I don't know if coming from a part of the world that historically has less exposure to the flu has something to do with it.

As for me, a wee bit of soreness returned in the arm. I haven't grown a third eye in the middle of the forehead yet, but I got to admit, tri-nocular vision would be pretty cool.


----------



## Robert1950

However, if you look at the flu historically, in 1918 Spanish Flu Pandemic killed and estimated 50 to 100 million people. That was three to six times as many as were killed in WWI. Conservative estimates say 3% of the world's population at the time died. Up to 33% of the world's populations is estimated to have been infected.


----------



## bluesmostly

Robert1950 said:


> However, if you look at the flu historically, in 1918 Spanish Flu Pandemic killed and estimated 50 to 100 million people. That was three to six times as many as were killed in WWI. Conservative estimates say 3% of the world's population at the time died. Up to 33% of the world's populations is estimated to have been infected.


Hmmm... you must be reading Wiki facts, most sources I have read put it at about 1/2 of that...

from the Federation of American Scientists 'fact sheet' on the 1918 Spanish Flu:

"The "Spanish" flu pandemic of 1918 and 1919 caused the deaths of 20-50 million people worldwide including up to 675,000 in the U.S. While only about 1% of those infected with the virus died,..."


----------



## Spankin Allison

Ha..They opened up the Olympic stadium in mtl for MASSIVE shoot's givaway.
Frank:smile:


----------



## mhammer

Robert1950 said:


> As for me, a wee bit of soreness returned in the arm. I haven't grown a third eye in the middle of the forehead yet, but I got to admit, tri-nocular vision would be pretty cool.


Maybe, but I can pretty much guarantee that *no* optician would have your glasses ready in under an hour.:smile:


----------



## david henman

...interesting...certain media types (jocks on am talk radio etc) are already lining up _in support of_ the wealthy and powerful jumping the queue for their shots.

well, they are "special", after all, eh.


----------



## Big_Daddy

Here's a pretty good article on the benefits of Vitamin D ....

http://www.besthealthmag.ca/get-healthy/prevention/why-vitamin-d-may-prevent-h1n1

Note that if you get 15 minutes of sunshine twice a week on your face, hands, arms or back (without sunblock) when the UV index is above 3, your skin will produce all of the Vitamin D that you require. Take that afternoon walk in the sunshine whenever you can!


----------



## keeperofthegood

david henman said:


> ...interesting...certain media types (jocks on am talk radio etc) are already lining up _in support of_ the wealthy and powerful jumping the queue for their shots.
> 
> well, they are "special", after all, eh.


Well, the people I would accept being part of the queue are people who actively travel, between towns or Provinces or States or nations, and people that physically engage the public. 

To me, it makes sense, vaccinate the most likely carriers; the people that move around. Airports would, to me, make good sense for being flu injection points since so much is "flown in": get off a plane, get the flu shot, get on with your business. As I mentioned a long time back, Viri have no legs of their own, WE humans have to do the walking for them.

For that matter, I passionately hate "health cards". Last thing I want is some tourist spreading disease around on his or her month long vacation simply because they couldn't afford to see a Dr while here. They are here in Canada, let them have the same health care access, don't tell them to run ill in the malls and streets spreading it around :|


----------



## david henman

keeperofthegood said:


> Well, the people I would accept being part of the queue are people who actively travel, between towns or Provinces or States or nations, and people that physically engage the public.


...or, in other words, pretty much everyone except that fairly odd fellow that lives in his mom's basement.

:smile:


----------



## keeperofthegood

kkjuw no, gosh...

No, really, most people only think they travel around a lot, but what they do is go from home to the office, from the office to the gas station, from the gas station to home and on weekends go to the mall, buy their one or two things, then go... right back home. They have their 2.3 wives, their 1.74 children, their cat, their dog, and drive less than 20,000 kms a year. These are not the people I look at as bringing Armageddon.

Being an autograph signing, walking in a press of peoples and crowds, hopping planes, trains and automobiles town to town kind of person is I think in a different class. Athletes yes, politicians, sales reps, couriers, anyone that has to encounter random patches of people, and then travel to new random patches of people. These people that may physically encounter 100 or 200 or more new people each week are more of a threat to spreading illness than people that see the same 6 others at the same office day after day after day.


EDIT though, there is indeed something to be said about "six degrees of separation"


----------



## Milkman

keeperofthegood said:


> Well, the people I would accept being part of the queue are people who actively travel, between towns or Provinces or States or nations, and people that physically engage the public.
> 
> To me, it makes sense, vaccinate the most likely carriers; the people that move around. Airports would, to me, make good sense for being flu injection points since so much is "flown in": get off a plane, get the flu shot, get on with your business. As I mentioned a long time back, Viri have no legs of their own, WE humans have to do the walking for them.



I actively travel between provinces, states and countries pretty much every week.

Anyone who wants my place in the queue is welcome to it.

I'll be opting out.


Call me typhoid Mikey.


----------



## david henman

...2.3 wives?

that just sounds stressful.

also, what do you do with less than 1/3 of a wife?

okay, i'm sorry i asked.

time to go back and read "the stand" again.

-dh




keeperofthegood said:


> kkjuw no, gosh...
> 
> No, really, most people only think they travel around a lot, but what they do is go from home to the office, from the office to the gas station, from the gas station to home and on weekends go to the mall, buy their one or two things, then go... right back home. They have their 2.3 wives, their 1.74 children, their cat, their dog, and drive less than 20,000 kms a year. These are not the people I look at as bringing Armageddon.
> 
> Being an autograph signing, walking in a press of peoples and crowds, hopping planes, trains and automobiles town to town kind of person is I think in a different class. Athletes yes, politicians, sales reps, couriers, anyone that has to encounter random patches of people, and then travel to new random patches of people. These people that may physically encounter 100 or 200 or more new people each week are more of a threat to spreading illness than people that see the same 6 others at the same office day after day after day.
> 
> 
> EDIT though, there is indeed something to be said about "six degrees of separation"


----------



## shoretyus

david henman said:


> time to go back and read "the stand" again.
> 
> -dh


That's funny. It's the extra almost 1/3 that gives ya the too much gear hassles 9kkhhd


----------



## Eager Beaver

Ugh> I've been bed ridden for two days. I'm now thoroughly convinced I have H1N1, and that I got it from my buddy I went to metallica with. Getting chills and a fever at the same time is not fun, folks.


----------



## mhammer

Near-scalding hot baths is what I take when fighting a virus. Fevers are the body's programmed way to kill viruses. Unfortunately, bodily-produced fevers are clumsy; slow to develop, unfocussed, and long-lingering. I try to induce a targetted, short-lived fever. If I'm really ill, I might take two soaks in a day.

I don't eschew any relevant medications, but I personally find hot baths and showers help. I don't know if others experience this, but hot baths and/or showers also loosen any knots in your stomach, and make it a whole lot easier to doze off and recover.


----------



## mhammer

david henman said:


> ...2.3 wives?
> 
> that just sounds stressful.
> 
> also, *what do you do with less than 1/3 of a wife?*


Not much, either with the lights on or off.:smile:

And if you thought whole kids were bad about picking up their dirty clothes or scrapping their dishes after dinner, try 0.74 kids.


----------



## keeperofthegood

mhammer said:


> Near-scalding hot baths is what I take when fighting a virus. Fevers are the body's programmed way to kill viruses. Unfortunately, bodily-produced fevers are clumsy; slow to develop, unfocussed, and long-lingering. I try to induce a targetted, short-lived fever. If I'm really ill, I might take two soaks in a day.
> 
> I don't eschew any relevant medications, but I personally find hot baths and showers help. I don't know if others experience this, but hot baths and/or showers also loosen any knots in your stomach, and make it a whole lot easier to doze off and recover.


+1 oh a good hot shower! SO many of life's ills are easier to manage with a good shower I think. Good natural stress releaser!

I think I also mentioned mint and chamomile teas too. Mint has little medicinal value, but it can ease congestion (steam) and can cool and ease the feeling of a sore throat (volatile oil evaporation). Chamomile does have established medicinal value as a natural muscle relaxant and this too helps with the pains of being ill. Especially if you have done a lot of coughing and have sore abdominals for it.

LOL *0.74* Oh mai I lol'd so much XD


----------



## david henman

...the hot bath concept sounds like its worth trying.

i have found that sleep is the absolute miracle cure.

-dh


----------



## mhammer

david henman said:


> i have found that sleep is the absolute miracle cure.


As do I. I find a nice hot bath helps me arrive at the "miracle cure" faster.


----------



## NB-SK

GuitarsCanada said:


> An ugly list. I am not sure listing all the ingredients is relevant to the problem. If you list all the ingredients in a hot dog you would never eat one again. There are many pro's and con's to flu vaccine's. This one is a bit different in that it will contain the adjuvant (antifreeze) where apparently, no other flu vaccine in Canada has ever contained a adjuvant. But I would agree that the information given out to date boggles the mind.


Not that ugly when you know what those chemicals are and in what concentration they are present in vaccines. 

For example:

Sucrose: just good old white sugar. 

Mercury (thimerosal): mere traces (you get more mercury eating a can of tuna).


I don't know where you got that the adjuvants used in vaccines are antifreeze (ethylene glycol? I seriously doubt it), but I know that the two most common ones are salts: aluminum phosphate (found in baking powder) and aluminium hydroxide (yup, like in the antacid). We've all consumed these two salts before...sometimes one after the other. :smile:


What the media conveniently forgot to mention is that mass vaccination programs, as the one suggested by the WTO for this flu virus, are not in any way an indication that a disease is extremely dangerous. Rather, such programs aim at minimizing the number of fatalities amongst those who are at a higher risk. Essentially, it reduces the odds that the ones at a high risk come in contact with someone who is infected.


----------



## NB-SK

keeperofthegood said:


> kkjuw no, gosh...
> 
> No, really, most people only think they travel around a lot, but what they do is go from home to the office, from the office to the gas station, from the gas station to home and on weekends go to the mall, buy their one or two things, then go... right back home. They have their 2.3 wives, their 1.74 children, their cat, their dog, and drive less than 20,000 kms a year. These are not the people I look at as bringing Armageddon.
> 
> Being an autograph signing, walking in a press of peoples and crowds, hopping planes, trains and automobiles town to town kind of person is I think in a different class. Athletes yes, politicians, sales reps, couriers, anyone that has to encounter random patches of people, and then travel to new random patches of people. These people that may physically encounter 100 or 200 or more new people each week are more of a threat to spreading illness than people that see the same 6 others at the same office day after day after day.
> 
> 
> EDIT though, there is indeed something to be said about "six degrees of separation"



I come in contact with about 200 people every day at work (some of which have the flu). I've also traveled abroad several times this year (was in Tienanmen Square on the anniversary of the massacre, but that's a story for another thread).

Despite all that, I haven't gotten sick, nor do I think I will. When you look at the numbers, it's clear that there is no cause for panic (how many Canadians die every years of seasonal flu? Look it up, you'll be shocked). On top of that, one shot only is needed for this new flu virus, which suggests that our immune system responds to the vaccine as if it's a booster shot. In other words, the new virus is much more similar to the seasonal H1N1 virus than it was originally thought. If you've gotten the seasonal flu vaccine regularly, odds are that you won't get very sick from A(H1N1). 

http://www.newscientist.com/article...mmunity-could-boost-swine-flu-protection.html

But, I'll still get the vaccine for the reasons I've mentioned in my previous comment.


----------



## Starbuck

Tragic deaths of young people aside, it's all about money folks...

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/11/12/h1n1-vaccine-costs.html?ref=rss


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Starbuck said:


> Tragic deaths of young people aside, it's all about money folks...
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/11/12/h1n1-vaccine-costs.html?ref=rss


Brutal. It's sad becuase what will happen next time? What if next time it really is a killer? People will be so disgusted over this episode that they will not do anything, or wont until it's too late and there is total chaos in the streets.


----------



## Beatles

I'm not really concerned about swine flu. Here's my big concern.

3 years ago was the Chinese calendar year of the cow...and we had Mad Cow disease.

2 years ago was the Chinese calendar year of the bird...and we had Avian flu.

This year is the Chinese calendar year of the pig...and we have swine flu.

However, next year in the Chinese calendar... year of the cock...


----------



## mhammer

Wait a minute! Is syphilis next year's disease?


----------



## shoretyus

So am I immune? My daughter apparently had it according to her doctor. Probably my wife the week before. I feel fine. Other than a hangover on Tuesday kqoct


----------



## rhh7

Just got back from my doctor's office, I got the regular flu shot. I won' take the swine flu vaccine.


----------



## nitehawk55

I'm sure it's been going around my work place and I have been exposed to it . I may have had something that may have been it a month ago but now any sickness in my workplace seems to be on the decline so maybe it's run it's course ??

I've found the whole spectacle of H1N1 totally confusing .

Will people take WHO ,CDC and the health system here seriously when something that really is serious happens ?.......good question . 

Lets hope something is learned from this whole event and it's handled better if and when the time comes we do have a serious pandemic which is quite possable we will some day . I'm sure this can be looked at a good test case to put a better system in place for calling it what it is without all the hype and confusion and more/better facilities to produce a vaccine if need be .


----------



## Robert1950

Minor side effects. I had the ability to control minds for about 45 mins and then it disappeared. I managed to get four people to give me all the money in their wallets. Must be the economy - I only scored $643.72.


----------



## NB-SK

Beatles said:


> I'm not really concerned about swine flu. Here's my big concern.
> 
> 3 years ago was the Chinese calendar year of the cow...and we had Mad Cow disease.
> 
> 2 years ago was the Chinese calendar year of the bird...and we had Avian flu.
> 
> This year is the Chinese calendar year of the pig...and we have swine flu.
> 
> However, next year in the Chinese calendar... year of the cock...



Thanks for the laughs. +1


----------



## NB-SK

Starbuck said:


> Tragic deaths of young people aside, it's all about money folks...
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2009/11/12/h1n1-vaccine-costs.html?ref=rss


Unfortunately, it often is about money and diverting our attention away from the real issues...

Count yourself lucky, though...It's much worse in my neck of the woods (Northeast Asia).


----------



## ajcoholic

well, I had my shot 24 hours ago, and I am still alive!

arm is about as sore as usual... nothing else abnormal.

They opened up the vacinations to everyone here this week.

AJC


----------



## ajcoholic

NB-SK said:


> Unfortunately, it often is about money and diverting our attention away from the real issues...
> 
> Count yourself lucky, though...It's much worse in my neck of the woods (Northeast Asia).


Yes, and I believe everything reported by the CBC... absolutely no bias there :smile:

My health care contribution paid for the vaccine and man/woman power to give it out, and I'llbe damned if I was going to let it go to waste. (ha!)

AJC


----------



## Rick31797

City Tv just said that 36 people have had serious side effects from the vaccine and there has been one death, but they have not linked it too the vaccine yet.
Rick


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Rick31797 said:


> City Tv just said that 36 people have had serious side effects from the vaccine and there has been one death, but they have not linked it too the vaccine yet.
> Rick


How could there be 36 incidents attributed to the vaccine if they have "not linked it to the vaccine". Something missing here.


----------



## mrmatt1972

GuitarsCanada said:


> How could there be 36 incidents attributed to the vaccine if they have "not linked it to the vaccine". Something missing here.


They've not linked the death to the vaccine. The serious reactions are linked.


----------



## keeperofthegood

Rick31797 said:


> City Tv just said that 36 people have had serious side effects from the vaccine and there has been one death, but they have not linked it too the vaccine yet.
> Rick





GuitarsCanada said:


> How could there be 36 incidents attributed to the vaccine if they have "not linked it to the vaccine". Something missing here.



http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/091117/health/health_flu_cda




> One person is believed to have died from a serious reaction to the vaccine, Butler-Jones said, but the death hasn't yet been conclusively linked to the flu shot. He said it's possible the elderly person who died suffered from an underlying condition.
> 
> 
> All the serious side effects came after shots of the adjuvanted vaccine, which contains a compound to boost the vaccine's potency. Butler-Jones said that's likely because the vast majority of people being vaccinated are getting the adjuvanted vaccine.


----------



## ajcoholic

Rick31797 said:


> City Tv just said that 36 people have had serious side effects from the vaccine and there has been one death, but they have not linked it too the vaccine yet.
> Rick


Yes, but thats with over 6 million shots given. It is not specific to the H1N1 vaccine... ANY vaccine can cause allergic reactions and in worse case death. But so can many diseases.

AJC


----------



## mhammer

Butler-Jones has noted that the complication rate from the H1N1 vaccination is actually *less* than that observed for regular flu shots.


----------



## ajcoholic

mhammer said:


> Butler-Jones has noted that the complication rate from the H1N1 vaccination is actually *less* than that observed for regular flu shots.


No one wants to hear that... now get to sensationalizing something!!! :smile:

Well, I am still alive and the arm's not nearly as sore as it was earlier today. I guess I am good to go! 

Bring on the swine flu... i'm ready for you:sport-smiley-002:

AJC


----------



## keeperofthegood

ajcoholic said:


> No one wants to hear that... now get to sensationalizing something!!! :smile:
> 
> Well, I am still alive and the arm's not nearly as sore as it was earlier today. I guess I am good to go!
> 
> Bring on the swine flu... i'm ready for you:sport-smiley-002:
> 
> AJC



9kkhhd I blew out my right ear drum this week. Yea, me and ears seems to be an issue. Spent not an hour at emerge on Thursday shuddering in loads of pain. Defocusing, I start talking about H1N1 (ears do hurt an incredible amount). The nurses all shrugged, and when I asked them if they were seeing people with it the response was that not a single case had come in to the ER in two weeks which is I think just about before the vaccine was going postal on peoples arms and long before anyone would have any kind of immunity from those shots anyways as you can still get the flu for I think a week or two weeks following the shot. Takes that time for the body to develop the immunity.

So, was it worth it in Burlington? Looks like a complete and utter no.


----------



## Guest

So what if I get sick. I'll stay home and then get better. I have sick days. I'll use them.


----------



## NB-SK

GuitarsCanada said:


> How could there be 36 incidents attributed to the vaccine if they have "not linked it to the vaccine". Something missing here.


Yes, logic and/or journalistic integrity.


----------



## NB-SK

ajcoholic said:


> Yes, but thats with over 6 million shots given. It is not specific to the H1N1 vaccine... ANY vaccine can cause allergic reactions and in worse case death. But so can many diseases.
> 
> AJC


One death out of 6 million...

To put things in perspective: 

24 of those 6 million will be struck by lightning at least once in their lifetime.


----------



## ajcoholic

NB-SK said:


> One death out of 6 million...
> 
> To put things in perspective:
> 
> 24 of those 6 million will be struck by lightning at least once in their lifetime.


Wow, I never would have guessed my odds were that good for getting hit by lightning.kksjur

Konasexone - you see, if you read way back in this thread I spoke of being self-employed and not wantiong to get sick as every day I cant work is a day that costs me a lot of $$. Not everyone works for someone who will pay them not to work, and then, some actually want to prevent sickness as they understand a sick day prevented is still best for them, and their employer. Getting sick shouldnt be considered a paid vacation.

AJC


----------



## Rugburn

ajcoholic said:


> Konasexone - you see, if you read way back in this thread I spoke of being self-employed and not wantiong to get sick as every day I cant work is a day that costs me a lot of $$. * Not everyone works for someone who will pay them not to work, and then, some actually want to prevent sickness as they understand a sick day prevented is still best for them, and their employer. Getting sick shouldnt be considered a paid vacation.*
> AJC



Wouldn't that depend on how $hitty your job is? 9kkhhd


----------



## mhammer

ajcoholic said:


> Wow, I never would have guessed my odds were that good for getting hit by lightning.


Well, it's those damn tin-foil hats that are all the rage. That and the metallic boots. I'm certain we could get the incidence down if folks would simply switch their clothing to somethng that was less condusive to being conductive.


----------



## ajcoholic

Rugburn said:


> Wouldn't that depend on how $hitty your job is? 9kkhhd


Or how much integrity you have. You choose your job, as far as I know. All I am saying is if you can prevent being sick, it benefits everyone. People who say "so what, if I get sick I get XX days off of work" have a poor attitude IMO. And as far as I know, I am entitled to an opinion.:smile:

AJC


----------



## Milkman

ajcoholic said:


> Or how much integrity you have. You choose your job, as far as I know. All I am saying is if you can prevent being sick, it benefits everyone. People who say "so what, if I get sick I get XX days off of work" have a poor attitude IMO. And as far as I know, I am entitled to an opinion.:smile:
> 
> AJC


I have a somewhat different and one might say "extreme" view on that.

I try hard to avoid behaviour that puts me at risk. I wash my hands VERY often and all that jazz.


I don't take sick days even though I'm entitled to 8 every year (that would amount to more than 200 days at this stage). If I get sick, I either suck it up and tough it out, or I take a vacation day.

Staying home everytime you get the sniffles is one of the reasons other nations are taking our lunch. Try and run a business with 10% ~ 20% absenteeism.


----------



## guitarman2

Milkman said:


> I have a somewhat different and one might say "extreme" view on that.
> 
> I try hard to avoid behaviour that puts me at risk. I wash my hands VERY often and all that jazz.
> 
> 
> I don't take sick days even though I'm entitled to 8 every year (that would amount to more than 200 days at this stage). If I get sick, I either suck it up and tough it out, or I take a vacation day.
> 
> Staying home everytime you get the sniffles is one of the reasons other nations are taking our lunch. Try and run a business with 10% ~ 20% absenteeism.



If I so much as have a cold my boss tells me to stay home. He has no tolerance for sniffling and coughing. 
Fortunately for me I'm paid salary and get paid anyway. Fortunately for them I can perform 90% of my duties via the company VPN. If I can at least crawl to my computer in the next room from my bedroom, I can work.


----------



## david henman

ajcoholic said:


> Getting sick shouldnt be considered a paid vacation.AJC


...i think i understand what you're saying.

i rarely take any sick days. as well, as a singer, it is crucial that i stay healthy and keep my immune system operating at maximum efficiency. i don't mess around with any of this stuff.

however when, ultimately, i come down with a bug of some sort, i do look at it as a paid vacation - a perfect opportunity to enjoy a bit of reading, rent a few movies i've been planning to watch, not to mention lots of r&r.

-dh


----------



## Rugburn

ajcoholic said:


> Or how much integrity you have. You choose your job, as far as I know. All I am saying is if you can prevent being sick, it benefits everyone. People who say "so what, if I get sick I get XX days off of work" have a poor attitude IMO. And as far as I know, I am entitled to an opinion.:smile:
> 
> AJC


I was really just making a joke, but if you're sick what's the big deal in staying home and getting better? I think Guitarman2's boss has the right idea. Better than washing hands or "sucking it up", tell your sick workers to stay home.


----------



## ajcoholic

david henman said:


> ...i think i understand what you're saying.
> 
> i rarely take any sick days. as well, as a singer, it is crucial that i stay healthy and keep my immune system operating at maximum efficiency. i don't mess around with any of this stuff.
> 
> however when, ultimately, i come down with a bug of some sort, i do look at it as a paid vacation - a perfect opportunity to enjoy a bit of reading, rent a few movies i've been planning to watch, not to mention lots of r&r.
> 
> -dh


Yes David, I agree with you. If you do get sick, by all means take a sick day(s) and get well. The issue I was trying to pouint out to the other fellow is that if something IS preventable (not just the flu) then why not do that? Even being carefull like Milkman - washing hands, etc. I think everyone does benefit when we are not sick... 

The people who have a care-less attitude that I dont understand. If it is preventable why not try and prevent illness?

AJC


----------



## ajcoholic

Rugburn said:


> I was really just making a joke, but if you're sick what's the big deal in staying home and getting better? I think Guitarman2's boss has the right idea. Better than washing hands or "sucking it up", tell your sick workers to stay home.


Yes, again, I agree - take sick days when needed - if you have them and are ill.

AJC


----------



## Starbuck

david henman said:


> ...i think i understand what you're saying.
> 
> i rarely take any sick days. as well, as a singer, it is crucial that i stay healthy and keep my immune system operating at maximum efficiency. i don't mess around with any of this stuff.
> 
> however when, ultimately, i come down with a bug of some sort, i do look at it as a paid vacation - a perfect opportunity to enjoy a bit of reading, rent a few movies i've been planning to watch, not to mention lots of r&r.
> 
> -dh


Absolutely! Where I work they do NOT want you coming to work ill. I have a four year old and it has been a horrendous month. I had the flu, now she's sick. I feel terrible about missing work, but my health and my family come first. I have been absolutely dilligent about washing doorknobs and sanitizing Wee's hands after school, yet we still get sick. we eat very healthy, get lots of sleep & excersise & don't eat junk, yet we seem to be passing this back and forth. It's week 3 of the dry cough for me! I have neighbors that eat nothing bu junk, stay out really late all the time and they seem to be bullet proof.... rant off....


----------



## keeperofthegood

Starbuck said:


> Absolutely! Where I work they do NOT want you coming to work ill. I have a four year old and it has been a horrendous month. I had the flu, now she's sick. I feel terrible about missing work, but my health and my family come first. I have been absolutely dilligent about washing doorknobs and sanitizing Wee's hands after school, yet we still get sick. we eat very healthy, get lots of sleep & excersise & don't eat junk, yet we seem to be passing this back and forth. It's week 3 of the dry cough for me! I have neighbors that eat nothing bu junk, stay out really late all the time and they seem to be bullet proof.... rant off....


Unfortunately not all work places are so kind as to give you time off to be ill.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cbc/091119/canada/canada_pei_pei_labour_standards584

The new proposal: After working for the same place *for 10 years* at minimum wage you will now get *1 paid sick day a year*.

kqoct stuck in the dark ages of child labor and sweat shops I think.


----------



## david henman

Starbuck said:


> I have neighbors that eat nothing bu junk, stay out really late all the time and they seem to be bullet proof.... rant off....


...i have a lot of friends who ate nothing but garbage and ingested insane amounts of alcohol, tobacco and drugs, and it seemed like they never got sick.

but that all, eventually, caught up with them. they're not doing so well these days.

me, i've never felt better.

knock on wud. would. linoleum.

-dh


----------



## NB-SK

ajcoholic said:


> Wow, I never would have guessed my odds were that good for getting hit by lightning.kksjur
> 
> Konasexone - you see, if you read way back in this thread I spoke of being self-employed and not wantiong to get sick as every day I cant work is a day that costs me a lot of $$. *Not everyone works for someone who will pay them not to work, and then, some actually want to prevent sickness as they understand a sick day prevented is still best for them, and their employer.* Getting sick shouldnt be considered a paid vacation.
> 
> AJC


I certainly can relate to the feeling. My wife's business lost about 40% of its earnings in October because many of her customers had the flu.


----------



## WEEZY

I didn't have tiome to read all 11 pages of this mass paranoia, but heres my $0.02 anyways.

I just got the shot a week ago by necessity (we just had our second child 10 days ago, his middle name is Jimi) as did my wife and 2 1/2 yr old daughter - all by our excellent family doctor's recommendation. 

For the next few days, my arm was really, really sore! I'm no pussy, trust me, it killed! But now it's fine, and I will not get the swine flu for at least the next few years. All those ingredients listed are mostly to keep bacteria from growing on the live vaccine - they are there in such tiny amounts that you will actually get more mercury in a small tuna sandwich.

We've been getting vaccines for decades now, why all the sudden paranoia now? Does everyone really believe the government is out to kill us all - or that Donald Rumsfeld wants to eat your babies or whomever? Does everyone know how stupid they sound?

It's your choice to believe the bullshit or not. I chose common sense.


----------



## keeperofthegood

WEEZY said:


> I didn't have tiome to read all 11 pages of this mass paranoia, but heres my $0.02 anyways.
> 
> I just got the shot a week ago by necessity (we just had our second child 10 days ago, his middle name is Jimi) as did my wife and 2 1/2 yr old daughter - all by our excellent family doctor's recommendation.
> 
> For the next few days, my arm was really, really sore! I'm no pussy, trust me, it killed! But now it's fine, and I will not get the swine flu for at least the next few years. All those ingredients listed are mostly to keep bacteria from growing on the live vaccine - they are there in such tiny amounts that you will actually get more mercury in a small tuna sandwich.
> 
> We've been getting vaccines for decades now, why all the sudden paranoia now? Does everyone really believe the government is out to kill us all - or that Donald Rumsfeld wants to eat your babies or whomever? Does everyone know how stupid they sound?
> 
> It's your choice to believe the bullshit or not. I chose common sense.


JIMI! Awesome!!

Nooooo it isn't this shot, the mercury studies were being done on last years shots.

As to this shot, what the deal is is this. Normal strains of flu that spin around the world usually in December/January do normally kill 20 to 30 thousand people at a go. Usually there are 2 or 3 strains that will go around the world in December/January and usually the flu will kill around 90 thousand people. This is in North America I think, not sure, would need to look it up again.

Swine Flu might have killed 7000 or so people, only a couple that may have been freak deaths but mostly killed those who had things like bumm tickers to begin with.

So, it is very obvious that it is not a dangerous virus. Infact there are now members of the government publicly wondering what the fuss was all about. MANY world governments have spent MILLIONS on a virus that is significantly less important and less dangerous than many of it's relatives. 

The view really goes. Pharmacy owns Newspaper. Newspaper reports the Public demands the Government "TAKE ACTION" then the Public reads that it is Demanding but the Government, well, it is really "NEWS TO US ", but then they don't do anything. No alerts, no restricted travel, nothing, so the Public then really "DEMANDS ACTION NOW" because the Newspaper is happily telling The Public daily how bad a job The Government is doing. So, out of self preservation and fear of what will happen Next Election the Government "HAS A VACCINE!" and so spends $$$$ to the Pharmacy that owns the Newspaper that started "THE STORY TODAY".

Many of the deaths are questionable if they are Swine Flu. H1N1 is a component virus, thats the nature of flu virus it swaps parts of itself in different patterns. Field tests use a chemical that will combine with components and then fluoresce under a black lamp. It is a way to say "this component is here". With stable viri, where there are not "strains" this is a very accurate way of saying "yup, you have it" but with flu, more testing is needed to verify that initial test. PCR and the rest do take time. Typically 2 weeks, but I have read news reports that labs testing flu actually need 3 weeks to verify a flu strain. What is being reported is the quickie test, the "10 year old was admitted to hospital last night and died from H1N1" would be a case of the quickie test and why most good news reports will say "pending verification" which is the much longer 3 week wait. What is being reported as the verified test results has been tending to show fewer deaths from this H1N1 flu strain than the quickie tests, so there is more happening out there than the hysterical H1N1 that The Public is worked up about. There are several other flus out there with the same parts as H1N1, any of which will show the same positive when tested with the quickie test.


Because I know here there has been no significant H1N1 flu at all in 3 weeks or more, and because the big time of this H1N1 flu here was mid summer and because mid summer I did have a week of the flu I am going to put the "odds are" card up and simply accept that I have had H1N1.


----------



## mhammer

Got my shot yesterday. Quick and painless, as far as lineups and processing. As per usual, I find myself walking around going "Geez, why do I feel so stiff? Oh, yeah.......riiiiiiight.", "How come my shoulder hurts? I didn't do anything heavy with it.....oh yeah....riiiiight." Had a crappy nights sleep last night, woke up with the shakes at 1:15AM, but I figure I'll be right as rain tomorrow after a good snooze tonight. Thank goodness for coffee, that sweet masquerade of job performance!


----------



## Tybone

I am not scared of the vaccine. It is just another in a long line of shots that use that 50's technology for creating an immune response in people. It's cool....same old same old.

The part that pisses me off is the money grubbing bastards that are hyping this mild mild MILD flu and digging deep into public pockets using fear and panic and uncertanty. The bastards. It is odd that the second post in alleged that Rummy is hooked up in some way as I was saying the tactics used to create the problem (create fear and then panic, offer help, restrict help, double price of solution) are reminicent of the Bush administration. Same MO. It is almost like they had a plan waiting for the right time to milk the gravey train.

The really issue for me is why is no one in the press saying that the mortality rates are 1/10th that of the normal flu? Perspective people....context people....


Cheers
Larry


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Is it just me or has this died down considerably in the media?


----------



## liddokun

No time to read through 22 pages of paraonia.

But for me, I have no choice but to get it. Required for my clinical practice (I'm a nursing student)


----------



## NIK0

I think the flu shot and all associated propaganda that make people decide with their emotions is a very big issue here. Media and governments have been effectively doing that for decades. Critical minds is what the general public are starting to lack...I'm happy to see that reading these posts, there are quite a few humans that still retain this important quality of logical thinking, basing their opinions on science and statistics as opposed to making a decision based on fear.

If you ask me this whole repeat of 1976 is one thing but I would concern myself more with the worlds food supply and a company called Monsanto. "The World According to Monsanto" is a very good documentary and starting point. GMO (genetically modified) food is and has been a sad reality for 50 years but no one talks about it as there seem to be greater concerns than food. Luckily Canada and Europe are the only to spots on Earth that have rejected Monsanto's entry into their local food supply but that will not last much longer. In the U.S a bill is being introduced into law that prevents farmers from growing their own crops and will be forced to use Monsanto's seeds and products. This law will also prevent you from being able to grow your own food in your backyard. If caught it will be a federal crime to grow your own tomatoes or even having an apple tree. What I learned recently that 80% of all soya products manafactured in the U.S. is a GMO product. We don't k ow this as Monsanto lobbied against having to label all soya goods with a GMO product sticker. They did this by discovering loopholes in FDAs policies.

I know I just opened up a new can of worms here and likely to be a seperate thread all together but at least this info isn't based on google searches but rather eye opening fact. 

I don't know what the real truth is behind the flu shot but I know I won't be getting it, nor will my familly until I can see a shred of evidence that this virus proves to be deadly and a serious threat to our existence. In the last 100 years this virus has been no more of a threat than any other influenza strain in the same period. Our bodies have a natural ability (if relatively healthy) to build its own antibodies to fight of the virus. Be healthy, drink lots of water along with a nutrition rich diet...you'll be fine


----------



## six-string

well to put it into perspective, 
you are more likely to get seriously ill from some form of cancer or other well known degenerative disease than H1N1. You are more likely to die in an automobile accident, or of a heart attack.
but in the end, once you're gone you're gone.

i got my shot last weekend. no big deal. i've been getting flu shots for over 10 years and never had a problem. 
as for how much toxic stuff is in the flu shot, i would bet its no worse than the toxic crap found in processed food and drink. i read somewhere recently that undertakers are using a lot less embalming fluid than they used to because nowadays when people die, they already have huge amounts of "preservative chemicals" built up in their bodies from years of eating factory processed foods, including genetically modified and chemically treated fruit and vegetables and grains, and steriod-filled meat products. 
Polysorbate 80 ? my favorite...yum! rock on.


----------



## Rick31797

They said on the news that, the H1N1 in another country, has mutated and is a stronger form, If this happens you have to wonder how effective the flue shot will be.

Rick


----------



## Bird

This reads like an X-Files conspiracy theory with a lot of misinformation. I believe the reason for the concern is that humans have little to no natural immunity to this virus. It seems that most people that catch this one get a mild case, but those that do get a bad case end up in ICU very quickly. Most at risk it seems are younger and otherwise previously healthy women (25-50 or something I don't recall exactly).


----------



## david henman

GuitarsCanada said:


> Is it just me or has this died down considerably in the media?


...i think that many of us have finally acknowledged that, despite the mob hysteria and associated whining, this whole vaccine disemination was actually handled quite well by all involved.

-dh


----------



## mhammer

Rick31797 said:


> They said on the news that, the H1N1 in another country, has mutated and is a stronger form, If this happens you have to wonder how effective the flue shot will be.
> 
> Rick


Well, there is mutated and there is mutated. The key thing is whether there is enough of a "family resemblance" that any training of your immune system (and "training" is essentially what a vaccination accomplishes) will still apply to the mutated version.

Think of it this way. You train your kid to recognize Canadian coins on the ground so they can spot them as they walk along. But not all coins look exactly like Canadian ones. If coins from other countries resemble Canadian ones enough, they will spot them and not overlook them. But if the coins are, say, black anodized aluminum rectangles, they might walk right by. 

Another analogy, chimps and gorillas have fairly human-like faces, and all three (us and them) are "primates". Lemurs and tree-shrews are also primates, but there is precious little (aside from thumbs) that would permit the average person to look at them and say "Hey, those are just like people!".

Your immune system has to first correctly recognize pathogens in order to attack them with appropriate anti-bodies. If it doesn't recognize them right away, it can't do its job.

So, yes, the virus may well be mutating, but the vaccine may still be effective. Maybe 97% as effective as before, but still effective. The need for an H1N1-specific vaccine was because the H1N1 virus was SO different from normal strains that no existing vaccine would do the trick.


----------



## Rick31797

The health officials didn't see or have any control over the young Boy dieing and thats what cause Hysteria.It had all too do with bad timing.

The H1N1 seems to be on the down slide, but they say it will come in waves.
Like said, this virus can put a young strong person in ICU, and not effect a senior ,so it is unlike the normal flue virus we see every year.

I still have not got my shot and i am thinking i will pass.I keep a bottle of hand sanitizer on me at all times, and i go out of the house on a average once a week, so i hope the odds are in my favor.

Rick


----------



## MarkO

vds5000 said:


> Enjoy this moment - it won't happen often - but I agree with you 100%. Just to add:
> 
> - there are chemicals in the vaccine that have been proven to be harmful to humans


There are chemicals in almonds that have been proven harmful to humans (cyanide). The relative importance isn't the chemicals themselves, it's the RMOS (relative margin of safety) associated with them, i.e. their dosage.


----------



## mhammer

MarkO said:


> There are chemicals in almonds that have been proven harmful to humans (cyanide). *The relative importance isn't the chemicals themselves*, it's the RMOS (relative margin of safety) associated with them, i.e. their dosage.


Bingo, but even more important is the relative risk of what the chemical *prevents*, vs what the chemical *causes*.

Let's say that 50 out of 100,000 people receiving dosage X of a chemical get sick, and 5 out of those 50 die. Is it classifiable as "dangerous"? You bet. But let's say that 2000 out of 100,000 not receiving that dosage of the chemical contract disease X, and out of those 200 die. So which is "safer", getting the chemical or not getting the chemical? The preponderance of public health experts would tell you you're a fool to avoid the chemical, simply based on odds. Stochastically, you are *40x* more likely to die by _avoiding_ the substance than by _taking_ it. So, do you feel lucky, punk?


----------



## guitarman2

mhammer said:


> Bingo, but even more important is the relative risk of what the chemical *prevents*, vs what the chemical *causes*.
> 
> Let's say that 50 out of 100,000 people receiving dosage X of a chemical get sick, and 5 out of those 50 die. Is it classifiable as "dangerous"? You bet. But let's say that 2000 out of 100,000 not receiving that dosage of the chemical contract disease X, and out of those 200 die. So which is "safer", getting the chemical or not getting the chemical? The preponderance of public health experts would tell you you're a fool to avoid the chemical, simply based on odds. Stochastically, you are *40x* more likely to die by _avoiding_ the substance than by _taking_ it. So, do you feel lucky, punk?


You absorb chemicals just from being in this polluted environment and unless you regularly practice fasting cleanses they'll accumulate in your body.
So that is not the reason for my unwillingness to get the vaccine. I probably would have got it if this whole thing had been handled better. But after all the delays and how much of the flu season has gone by, I'm not sure how important it is to get it.


----------



## NIK0

mhammer said:


> Bingo, but even more important is the relative risk of what the chemical *prevents*, vs what the chemical *causes*.
> 
> Let's say that 50 out of 100,000 people receiving dosage X of a chemical get sick, and 5 out of those 50 die. Is it classifiable as "dangerous"? You bet. But let's say that 2000 out of 100,000 not receiving that dosage of the chemical contract disease X, and out of those 200 die. So which is "safer", getting the chemical or not getting the chemical? The preponderance of public health experts would tell you you're a fool to avoid the chemical, simply based on odds. Stochastically, you are *40x* more likely to die by _avoiding_ the substance than by _taking_ it. So, do you feel lucky, punk?


First prove that there is such a threat of swine flu and that the vaccine will prevent it...then I will inject "how you put it" chemicals into my body.


Your example is valid if the statistics that you suggest are 100% fact. I bet all those flu vaccine recipients in 1976 who developed guillain barre would have a difference of opinion. Does anyone one know how many died from the swine flu epidmic in 1976? Judging from the content in the thread, I don't think anyone does. Let's just say more poeple died from the shot, and a lot have got complications from it. But tell me how many poeple died from it and then let's see how much of an eye opener it is!


----------



## bluesmostly

WEEZY said:


> I didn't have tiome to read all 11 pages of this mass paranoia, but heres my $0.02 anyways.
> 
> I just got the shot a week ago by necessity (we just had our second child 10 days ago, his middle name is Jimi) as did my wife and 2 1/2 yr old daughter - all by our excellent family doctor's recommendation.
> 
> For the next few days, my arm was really, really sore! I'm no pussy, trust me, it killed! But now it's fine, and I will not get the swine flu for at least the next few years. All those ingredients listed are mostly to keep bacteria from growing on the live vaccine - they are there in such tiny amounts that you will actually get more mercury in a small tuna sandwich.
> 
> We've been getting vaccines for decades now, why all the sudden paranoia now? Does everyone really believe the government is out to kill us all - or that Donald Rumsfeld wants to eat your babies or whomever? Does everyone know how stupid they sound?
> 
> It's your choice to believe the bullshit or not. I chose common sense.


no kidding?... belief is definitely a choice and it amazes me that people choose to believe in things that don't require faith. i know, i know, poeple are easily spooked and want to feel secure and belieiving in things you have no control over still brings emotional peace... 

call me jaded but i still can't believe that people actually think that big governments work for the poeple or that you can believe anything politicians say. as for governments killing their own people you need to study history a bit, that is what they do.

Governments killed more of their own citizens in the 20th century than all of the wars combined. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, the Ethiopian and Rwanda governments, are some of the biggest offenders that come to mind. The century’s wars and revolutions accounted for about 37 millions deaths. Deaths caused by the conscious decisions of tyrants, politicians, or bureaucrats to murder great numbers of their own people for reasons of ideology, religion, race or land, amount to over 100 million. So in the end, all of these deaths are government sponsored: governments either kill their own people or send them off to kill other government’s citizens. It is not a wild conspriracy theory, just a fact. oops, this might fit into the banned topic of political discussion on the forum....

anyway, i prefer to take a rational unbiased look at all the info on both sides of the vaccine debate, or any issue, and make an informed decision rather than simply catagorically dismissing either or just believing what i am told by the media or authority figures. i also look carefully at the motives of those trying to 'sell' me something. 

i have done my homework and i wouldn't take the vaccine under any circumstances. i am not trying to convince anyone that they should or should not take the vaccine. rather than buying into one side of the debate and 'choosing to believe', listen and read and make your own decision.


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## guitarman2

Well I guess we only have about a week to decide whether we want the vaccine or not, then the government makes the decision for us by closing down the vaccine centers. The news reports that the doctors offices will have it but I was under the impression that the vaccines expire fairly quickly so I didn't think that was an option. I've been giving it a lot of thought and I don't think I'll get vaccinated. Could be a gamble but this swine flu is a result of a combination of past viruses that have mutated. There is nothing to keep this virus from mutating around the vaccine. I think I'll continue to strengthen my immunities and trust that works for me. In the end when your numbers up there isn't any vaccine that will stop that.


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## Rick31797

I just heard today, that my sister-in law got a H1N1 vaccine shot and is now in Edmonton hospital in Intensive care. She just had her 60th surprise Birthday party 2 weeks ago.
For some people this vaccine can be life threatening.
Rick


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## Big_Daddy

Rick31797 said:


> I just heard today, that my sister-in law got a H1N1 vaccine shot and is now in Edmonton hospital in Intensive care. She just had her 60th surprise Birthday party 2 weeks ago.
> For some people this vaccine can be life threatening.
> Rick


Here's hoping she recovers quickly, Rick.:smile:


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## keeperofthegood

Rick31797 said:


> I just heard today, that my sister-in law got a H1N1 vaccine shot and is now in Edmonton hospital in Intensive care. She just had her 60th surprise Birthday party 2 weeks ago.
> For some people this vaccine can be life threatening.
> Rick


Dang, keep us updated on her! 

There have been two different news stories over the past two weeks on the shot. One a back patter on how little trouble there has been. The other an embarrassed foot shuffling as there appears to have been at least one major bad batch out there causing lots of allergic reactions.

And it appears that the clinics are being shut down for the season, it will be in GP's hands next to decide who gets what and when.


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## I_cant_play

I won't be getting the vaccine. I don't think I'm at risk, I'm pretty healthy (I had a cold these last few days but that's about it) and I have no reason to believe that this bug is a major threat to me. What bugs me about this is the media coverage. I understand that there is a possibility of this being a major pandemic. But just because something is possible doesn't mean that I need to live in fear and put things into my body just because of a possibility. It's also possible I'll get hit by a car or get struck by lightning. I remember a while ago I saw a headline on the Guardian website something along the lines of: swine fly deaths: 23, could rise up to 65000. Where do these people get these numbers. I realize that statistics are useful but really, instead of 65000 they could have used any number between 23 and however many people were killed by the Spanish flu and to many the number would sound plausible. 

If this whole fear of a 'possibility' tells me anything it's that people are out of touch with how vulnerable life is. Every year there is a minute possibility of an average healthy individual dying of a regular flu but most don't even think about it. Let's say that this year that minute possibility has increased slightly. This is still no reason to be concerned. But why do people panic? Well the media coverage of the deaths due to regular flu is non-existant so when the media jumps on the swine flu, to the viewer it appears that his chance of dying just increased drastically because of the big bad virus.

The other thing that really bugs me is how come whenever there is any kind of crisis, the solution seems to be to buy something (in this case we're not buying it directly but money is being spent). I think a much more reasonable reaction by the WHO and the media would have been: 'there is a possibility of a pandemic, even though the chances of a serious outbreak are small people should take advantage of this situation to improve their lifestyles, eat less crappy food, exercise more, watch less tv, so that they have more resilient immune systems which will be better prepared to fend off the flu'

For what it's worth, I don't remember ever getting the flu vaccine and I get sick infrequently and when I do it's so mild that I can keep going to school outside, etc...


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## mhammer

In 2002, psychologists Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky won the Nobel prize for economics. One of their major contributions to the field was their notion of the "availability heuristic". Normally, in the real world, when things happen more frequently, they are also more likely to come to mind readily. However, the reverse is not necessarily true. Humans tend to incorporate the "availability" of a richly detailed example to their thinking as indicative of how often something has occurred. In the sense that it is a shortcut to remembering and tabulating all possible instances of something occurring, it is a heuristic. It is also frequently erroneous. Not surprisingly, when something becomes high profile in the news, it tends to influence assumptions about how often things like that happen, and people over-estimate its occurrence. As you might also predict, people who watch more television tend to overestimate the incidence of crime in their neighbourhoods, something which the availability heuristic would predict. Not that I wish to minimize the critical nature of what happened to Rick31797's sister-in-law, but one should not mistake I-heard-from-this-guy-who-knows-a-guy anecdotes for the true frequency of occurrence and true likelihood of having something occur, or true risk.


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## bluesmostly

mhammer said:


> In 2002, psychologists Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky won the Nobel prize for economics. One of their major contributions to the field was their notion of the "availability heuristic". Normally, in the real world, when things happen more frequently, they are also more likely to come to mind readily. However, the reverse is not necessarily true. Humans tend to incorporate the "availability" of a richly detailed example to their thinking as indicative of how often something has occurred. In the sense that it is a shortcut to remembering and tabulating all possible instances of something occurring, it is a heuristic. It is also frequently erroneous. Not surprisingly, when something becomes high profile in the news, it tends to influence assumptions about how often things like that happen, and people over-estimate its occurrence. As you might also predict, people who watch more television tend to overestimate the incidence of crime in their neighbourhoods, something which the availability heuristic would predict. Not that I wish to minimize the critical nature of what happened to Rick31797's sister-in-law, but one should not mistake I-heard-from-this-guy-who-knows-a-guy anecdotes for the true frequency of occurrence and true likelihood of having something occur, or true risk.


well said hammer.


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## Rick31797

When people say too me this ( H1N1) is just a flue and i reply it is not just a flue. Just the flue does not kill a healthy young 13 yr old boy, refer too the Hockey player in Toronto.
There reply is, he had underlying health issue's. I watch Toronto news every morning and night and did not hear of any underlying illness this boy had.
Maybe it wasn't reported, but so far all internet searches say he was healthy.

As of Nov 1/09 there has been 95 people die.From 6 yrs too 50 yrs. Some did have health issue, along with H1N1.

I have been told by two people the boy had underlying health problems, and i can only think, if he did have something it could not have been anything too do with respiratory, as he was a hockey player and thats what the H1N1 virus goes for.

But the two people saying this are against the H1N1 flue shot., so it makes me wonder if there trying to minimize this virus.

Rick


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## guitarman2

Rick31797 said:


> When people say too me this ( H1N1) is just a flue and i reply it is not just a flue. Just the flue does not kill a healthy young 13 yr old boy, refer too the Hockey player in Toronto.
> There reply is, he had underlying health issue's. I watch Toronto news every morning and night and did not hear of any underlying illness this boy had.
> Maybe it wasn't reported, but so far all internet searches say he was healthy.
> 
> As of Nov 1/09 there has been 95 people die.From 6 yrs too 50 yrs. Some did have health issue, along with H1N1.
> 
> I have been told by two people the boy had underlying health problems, and i can only think, if he did have something it could not have been anything too do with respiratory, as he was a hockey player and thats what the H1N1 virus goes for.
> 
> But the two people saying this are against the H1N1 flue shot., so it makes me wonder if there trying to minimize this virus.
> 
> Rick



I would say that the 13 year old hockey player was otherwise a healthy young boy. 
But I believe he had an underlying condition. He had just finished playing hockey and was probably more dehydrated then normal. I've played hockey and I have had my water bottles on the bench but even though I hydrate myself I have found my self after some games not feeling too good due to being a bit too dehydrated. Now add in any kind of flu and its even more important to keep your self hydrated. The boy probably never should have been playing hockey.
I remember a time when my son played very sick. He was about 12 and he played about half the game then threw up on the bench and then layed on the bench for the rest of the game.These kids are like that. They'll play sick even though its far from a good idea. Not to mention all the bacteria and germs present in the dressing room When you've finished playing and you're dehydrated and your muscles are broke down your immunities are low and you could be open to any kind of attack.
So while the 13 year old hockey player didn't have an on going health issue as an under lying condition, I believe it was the above mentioned circumstances that provided an extra ordinary condition.


----------



## guitarman2

mhammer said:


> In 2002, psychologists Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky won the Nobel prize for economics. One of their major contributions to the field was their notion of the "availability heuristic". Normally, in the real world, when things happen more frequently, they are also more likely to come to mind readily. However, the reverse is not necessarily true. Humans tend to incorporate the "availability" of a richly detailed example to their thinking as indicative of how often something has occurred. In the sense that it is a shortcut to remembering and tabulating all possible instances of something occurring, it is a heuristic. It is also frequently erroneous. Not surprisingly, when something becomes high profile in the news, it tends to influence assumptions about how often things like that happen, and people over-estimate its occurrence. As you might also predict, people who watch more television tend to overestimate the incidence of crime in their neighbourhoods, something which the availability heuristic would predict. Not that I wish to minimize the critical nature of what happened to Rick31797's sister-in-law, but one should not mistake I-heard-from-this-guy-who-knows-a-guy anecdotes for the true frequency of occurrence and true likelihood of having something occur, or true risk.


Yes you said it in your usual eloquent "lets be technical" way of saying things but yes its obvious. When its happening to people halfway around the globe we probably wouldn't give it much thought.
But when you know someone or know someone, who knows someone it has a way of making things more real and tends to make us more afraid then we need to be. I can imagine every little sniffle becomes a false positive for the swine flu now.


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## mhammer

Thanks for the comments, folks.

Over the weekend, there was an article in the Globe and Mail about the possibility that those ostensibly young-and-healthy people who died from H1N1 succumbed because of an aggressive response on the part of their immune system. That would seem to explain why the fatalities have been not to very young children (whose immune systems are not fully developed) or seniors (whose immune systems are in decline already).

If anyone can dig up that piece, I'd like to see it again, as would many here, I'm sure.


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## GuitarsCanada

Billy Corgan weighs in on the H1N1 hysteria



> “I do not trust those who make the vaccines, or the apparatus behind it all to push it on us thru fear. This is not judgment; it is a personal decision based on research, intuition, conversations with my doctor and my ‘family’. If the virus comes to take me Home, that is between me and the Lord.”
> 
> I am willing to wonder aloud whether any of this we experience here on Earth is real. What is there to be afraid of in questioning life itself? I know God is not afraid of my doubt. That is why He gave me the faculty to doubt, to overcome its mystique to better know faith.”
> 
> “there is evidence to suggest this virus was created by man.”
> 
> “I am not a doctor, and I am in no way suggesting that you should follow any medical advice from me,” Corgan writes. “What you do with your body, what you put into it, who you allow to love it or hate on it, is your business.”


Some heavy hitting from the Zero


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## ajcoholic

GuitarsCanada said:


> Billy Corgan weighs in on the H1N1 hysteria
> 
> 
> 
> Some heavy hitting from the Zero


The day I start taking medical advice from musicians...


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## keeperofthegood

GuitarsCanada said:


> Billy Corgan weighs in on the H1N1 hysteria
> 
> 
> 
> Some heavy hitting from the Zero



Yea, that is what I mentioned of what the Wiki said.

Think is this. If you have a virus that is "partially alive" what you have is a virus that IS alive, just very disabled, small quantities, or otherwise rendered 'less' dangerous.

Now, JUST because the Internets exists does not mean farmers are smarter than they were 30 years ago. We need farmers, but farmers are not known for their worldly views. What the Internet DOES is provide rapid abilities to search and purchase "cheap".

So, if a farmer who as the internet but lacks a highschool education that can raise pigs "real good" has some sick pigs that wont sell but lacks lots of money is looked at as the "culprit" how would that farmer be the culprit? Easy, a flu vaccine has to match strain. EVERYONE on this post knows that. Farmers, 100 pigs, no social life, no high school, poor with sick pigs but has the internet, guess what. He will buy "vaccine" but wont necessarily "know" what he really needs. A veteranarian would of course, and farmers in better educated regions would, but a poor man in Mexico I am willing to bet would not. He does know this, he can get stuff from China REAL cheap. So, what do you do? Get it of course. And of course your animals stay ill, because its a matter of matching strains. So, what do you think "stuff is weak, give more" and so you start pumping out the big needles into you flu ravished pigs with Asian strains of partially live flu viri and before too many weeks have passed you now have a chimera on your hands that becomes a global event :/

Stranger things in life have happened.

Anyways, I was at my dr's yesterday. I articulated my position to her when she asked if I wanted the shot. She agreed with my overall position and I didn't get the shot. My dr, smart cookie, I really do like her


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## GuitarsCanada

Latest report from Fluwatch would indicate that it has already peaked? That is interesting



> Summary of FluWatch Findings for the
> Week ending November 21, 2009
> 
> Nationally, the activity level reported this week decreased compared to the previous week. All influenza indicators declined during week 46.
> A possible epidemic peak has been reached by all provinces and territories.
> The Pandemic (H1N1) 2009 strain accounted for nearly 100% of the positive influenza A subtyped specimens this week.
> The intensity of Pandemic (H1N1) 2009 in the population was still high with 1,554 hospitalizations, 243 ICU admissions and 61 deaths reported this week. Hospitalized cases occurred in all provinces and territories (P/T) that reported this week while the deaths were from all P/T except PE, NL and NU. From August 30 to November 21, 2009, a total of 5,507 hospitalized cases including 819 (14.9%) cases admitted to an intensive care unit (ICU) as well as 203 deaths had been reported.
> While the number of hospitalized cases, ICU admissions and deaths reported this week decreased, the number of hospitalizations was higher than the overall number of hospitalizations for the first wave.
> The proportion of severe cases (ICU admissions and deaths) among all hospitalized cases was lower in the second wave than in the first wave.


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## Fader

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/health/Experts+call+vaccination+program/2306509/story.html

It's over some experts say.


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## GuitarsCanada

This whole thing has been bizarre to say the least.


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## Rick31797

Bizarre is a good word too use, and too think only 30 % of the people got the H1N1 shot through-out Canada.
Rick


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## keeperofthegood

I think it has been a colossal waste of money. 

Its a flu. Nothing special. This one was the sniffles. Yes, it could have been bad, but from the get go it wasn't. Remove Mexico from the numbers and it almost becomes a non-event.

Sure the strain was a surprise but then ALL flu strains are. No one in medicine knows what they will face "_next year_" and they always have to "_wait and see and respond when it shows_". This information has been in the literature for years now, and is often the response to "_so, why don't you just make a lot of vaccines and not just a few strains?_". All the back-pedalling of "_oh we never saw this one before_" is all HOG wash, until a strain presents it has "_never been seen before_". The viri still all work the same, the anti-virus is made the same; you put the virus in a blender to chop it up, inject that into fertilized eggs, wait 72 hours, then make meat paste of the eggs, filter the particulates, irradiate or heat that up, and stick it into people.

Sorry, it is a myopically simple process that was invented by Pasture, and works the same then as now. 100+ years of science hasn't magically made it simpler or better just more expensive.

I do fear the concept of a global pandemic event. Any rational person with a sense of global history would and should. But since George W. scared the planet about bio-weapons prompting the WHO to do their base line research with that strain of the common cold, sars (yes, it was originally all on the WHO website that this was the goal and why they had 50 virologists in Hong Kong looking; it was post-sars removed from their website and official literature, and a few of the members of the WHO that publicly said that was the goal were reassigned), it is well evident that personal hygiene and personal responsibility is the bigger combatant against a pandemic. 

Nations cannot stop them, governments cannot isolate them, and pharmacopoeia cannot physically make drugs fast enough.


----------



## bluesmostly

keeperofthegood said:


> I think it has been a colossal waste of money.
> 
> Its a flu. Nothing special. This one was the sniffles. Yes, it could have been bad, but from the get go it wasn't. Remove Mexico from the numbers and it almost becomes a non-event.
> 
> Sure the strain was a surprise but then ALL flu strains are. No one in medicine knows what they will face "_next year_" and they always have to "_wait and see and respond when it shows_". This information has been in the literature for years now, and is often the response to "_so, why don't you just make a lot of vaccines and not just a few strains?_". All the back-pedalling of "_oh we never saw this one before_" is all HOG wash, until a strain presents it has "_never been seen before_". The viri still all work the same, the anti-virus is made the same; you put the virus in a blender to chop it up, inject that into fertilized eggs, wait 72 hours, then make meat paste of the eggs, filter the particulates, irradiate or heat that up, and stick it into people.
> 
> Sorry, it is a myopically simple process that was invented by Pasture, and works the same then as now. 100+ years of science hasn't magically made it simpler or better just more expensive.
> 
> I do fear the concept of a global pandemic event. Any rational person with a sense of global history would and should. But since George W. scared the planet about bio-weapons prompting the WHO to do their base line research with that strain of the common cold, sars (yes, it was originally all on the WHO website that this was the goal and why they had 50 virologists in Hong Kong looking; it was post-sars removed from their website and official literature, and a few of the members of the WHO that publicly said that was the goal were reassigned), it is well evident that personal hygiene and personal responsibility is the bigger combatant against a pandemic.
> 
> Nations cannot stop them, governments cannot isolate them, and pharmacopoeia cannot physically make drugs fast enough.


OK, if it is that simple and it is indeed common sense, are the powers that be who put on this campaign really dumb and careless, or is there another agenda?


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## keeperofthegood

bluesmostly said:


> OK, if it is that simple and it is indeed common sense, are the powers that be who put on this campaign really dumb and careless, or is there another agenda?


kqoct you know those same 'powers that be' spend money as if it was made of water. It is about the voters and getting re-elected, and if they don't buy you off with a vaccine they do with family adjustment checks, home renovation tax credits, tax back quarterly checks for the money they took from the people too poor to have paid it in the first place....

Wasted time and effort on a virus that was never dangerous. Not only do I think it, but Dr's think it, politicians think it, news commentators that aren't owned think it. The point of view is more common than not actually.


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## Rick31797

I think you would have a hard time shoving down the throats of the family members of the 105 + deceased children/ adults, that this Virus was never dangerous.Not everybody had underlying health problems.
It was never just the normal flue virus.

If the health officials sat back and did nothing, at all, then the people would be outraged, there would have been more law suits filed then the vaccine made.
Damned if they do, and very damned if they don't.
Rick


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## rhh7

With all of the flu talk, I have been washing my hands with soap and water about 10 times per day. I have been carefull not to touch my face or nose. Knock on wood, I have not had so much as a sniffles this year. Was offered the H1N1 vaccine at my doctor's office yesterday, but declined.


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## keeperofthegood

Rick31797 said:


> I think you would have a hard time shoving down the throats of the family members of the 105 + deceased children/ adults, that this Virus was never dangerous.Not everybody had underlying health problems.
> It was never just the normal flue virus.
> 
> If the health officials sat back and did nothing, at all, then the people would be outraged, there would have been more law suits filed then the vaccine made.
> Damned if they do, and very damned if they don't.
> Rick


No. What they do is what they do every year. Make a vaccine and give it to people. What they don't do is create mass hysteria and panic in the public, spending gobs of money on products that were not necessary. Sure, 100+ people died. It is sad, and for some my heart really does go out the families and it did leave me feeling devastated too, I have an 11 and an 8 year old, I worry for them and feel for those other parents. 

But what will you say to the 10,000+ or more families that were not prioritized because they had a flu strain that wasn't H1N1? Those stains are not guarded against with panic made injections, those strains are not guarded against with stunning new technology at double the price, those strains that even my Dr didn't give me when I asked for them because the H1N1 push was bigger so the regular shots weren't sent to her office. And my Dr agreed to that as well, that there are other flu strains that will kill significantly many more people this year than H1N1.

Yea, for the government it is damned if they do, or don't. But the history of H1N1 is clear; it was a media darling first. It was in the papers and on tv weeks before it was on any governments agenda and I recall the news headlines decrying the lack of government response, and it was the voters that pressured the governments who then pressured the WHO to "DO!" something. This never came about the other way around, from medical observations made by the WHO that then alerted the Governments who then used the Media to inform people of a necessity for inoculations.

So yea, as I have said from the start. This flu was for the most part the sniffles, which was the very first thing I said it was, and what the numbers globally show it to have been. They simply should have added it to the list of viri to inoculate against with the shot in the arm, and simply sent it out. No fuss not muss. The outcome would have been the same and we taxpayers would have saved a bundle of cash too. The first year the Ontario government gave 'free' flu shots, that year saw an 80% reduction in flu across the province. It is not unproven technology and it is effective.

EDIT  Cheers mate, gahh long post was long, time for a coffee. Yea, I am not saying the government shouldn't have done anything, I'm saying we were suckered into a hysterical response that out weighed the severity of the situation that cost us more money than effective health treatment. What should have been done, I feel, is simply make the flu shot and send it out to the clinics but not label it H1N1, simply call it what they usually call it, "the flu shot". We would have been every bit as protected and more as the other strains would have been incorporated too. Now we have other strains in their own shots handed out separately, and a population that feels the really dangerous one is done so why should they worry about any more shots. And unfortunately, the numbers would tell them that is wrong thinking but most people wont look those up, their attention is now on Christmas shopping before the stores start stocking March Break stuff.


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## Rick31797

The every year flue virus that we have does not kill young healthy people, It kills mostly seniors, with health issue's.That has been already proven.Also The H!N1 virus penetrates deep into the lungs.. Thats why it can be deadly virus to get.

Hysteria for the H1N1 vaccine might be a strong word for what happened Toronto anyways. Only 30 % got the vaccine,in all of Canada, hardly Hysteria.
If the young hockey player had not died, there would have been less people getting the vaccine.
The low overall percentage tells me not alot of healthcare workers got the H1N1 shot.

I think if the health officials would have went too work places, it may have been better way too get some of the vaccine to the people wanting it.They use too do that many years ago.
Rick


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## keeperofthegood

Thats my point. 30% got it, 100ish people got sick enough to die. Um, so why is this thread heading to 400 posts and there is no other flu threads going? Because, the public awareness of "this" one was hyped. Is it dangerous? Um... so far I am only aware of three children dieing from it suddenly, the remaining 97+ were people with health issues. That being here in Canada, and I have not heard any or many similar stories on any of the international news reports. Nothing thats made me take notice anyways.

I'm not downplaying the need to have a vaccine against flu. I am decrying the process and costs of this particular, and how historical, flu-event. This flu was mild by all standards. It did not kill very many people when compared to many other flus, it did not even sicken people, and those made ill were not nearly sick to the degree any other flu sickens people (I had a runny nose for 5 days, then it was done). And those "kids" that did die, were never on the "priority list" for the shot either @[email protected] and that to me speaks a strange tale. Seniors were low risk not high thats been stated from as far back as April now due to their prior exposures, but they were top of the list for shots, as well as kids under 5 for whom no public mention of risk was made. However, for the 10yr to 25yr who have suffered the worse effects of those that have had it were not in the zone targeted by the clinics unless they were pregnant.


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## david henman

...lets face it, kiddies, if the h1n1 conpiracy, or the h1n1 vaccine conspiracy, or the climate change conspiracy, or the slippery slope conspiracy don't getcha, the boogeyman will.

remember, you heard it here first!


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## Steadfastly

All the hype the media were putting into this and now you hardly hear of it. It's just another nail put in the believability of the media and the drug companies. Some have undoubtedly made millions and perhaps billions off of the scare tactics used over this virus which seems as potent as other flu viruses but no more so.


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## keeperofthegood

wow someone answered the poll and popped this back up.


What is interesting, a week ago reading in the paper while on the bus. Apparently the vaccine caused as many cases of neurological impairment (virtual death) as the virus cause to die dead. My big LOL has been the banners the government has erected proclaiming that the fue season does not end till April.... and remember, h1n1 began at the unusual time of March last year causing the unusual summer outbreak. And if you had your Wheaties today and did the fast math, the proclaimed season for h1n1 is longer than a year LMAO!

EDIT:

Oh yes, looked it up. In Canada, 

H1N1 sickened 10, 000, 000 (yea, can you believe that? thats what the WHO says of us here) people, all recovered fine with no life impacting effects other than 71 people who passed away.
H1N1 vaccened 15,000,000ish (no two statistics match up on the actual number that got the shot) people, sickened 1, 200, of which 200 people are sever enough to be still in hospital and probably not getting out.

Even though there is still a push by dr's to vaccinate, the total number of new and confirmed cases of H1N1 since December here in Canada is ... 1 (and that number took a lot to find as the official government pages don't tell you, they have most of what is there written in very obfuscated text).

In the USA, a normal flu death tole is around 37,000. Across the USA, the death tole was just under 12,000. The actual percentages as stated on the official government information sites I have looked at all say "a very small percent" of the over all number of people that contracted the infection. Even though the USA is an order of magnitude larger than Canada, I would very much question that level of kill there, as it is out of line with the experiences of pretty much every other even moderately industrialized nation.


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## bluesmostly

[video=youtube;r1lhP4vpeX4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1lhP4vpeX4&feature=related[/video]


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## GuitarsCanada

So, now that we are half way through March of 2010, is this thing going to go down as one of the biggest hoax's propagated upon mankind since The Alien Autopsy footage from Roswell UFO crash?


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## Rick31797

The people that pushed this will never admit that it didnt turn out like they thought, because the next time it will be very little believing what they say.
I just hope the people that got the shot don't get sick with a autoimmune disease, like the last time.
Rick


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## al3d

we were just talking about this yesturday with friends over a beer...and me and my wife were the only one that did'nt get the vaccine..and we're the only one who did'nt get sick this winter!.and my wife works in a kindergarden..so bascicaly around sick kids all week long. NOW. it might be a coincidence, i mean i have'nt had a cold or the flue in 5 years personnaly. but i'm just glad we did'nt get it for nothing basicaly


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## fraser

yeah- i got pnuemonia last year about this time, but after that no colds or flus all year- no shot- im still alive!
im alive! YEEEEEAAAHHH!


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## GuitarsCanada

Both Marnie and I got a cold this year, I am just about done with it now, minor and maybe a week or so of not feeling great. I was really pushing the vax for all of us and Marnie refused. I ended up not getting it either so we will see. It just seemed to vanish from the media suddenly and now nothing.


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## Robert1950

GuitarsCanada said:


> Both Marnie and I got a cold this year, I am just about done with it now, minor and maybe a week or so of not feeling great. I was really pushing the vax for all of us and Marnie refused. I ended up not getting it either so we will see. It just seemed to vanish from the media suddenly and now nothing.


Depends on who you work with and who you are exposed to and whether any of these people are considered high risk for cross contamination of some sort. Given that I work with some people who wash their hands once a week, on a good week, I had both flu shots. Been taking them for 15 years now. No side effects, no flu.

P.S. I haven't had a respiratory infection in 25 months (knock on wood). I think the biggest factor in this, is my minor obsession with hand sanitizers (up to 8 times a day) and using a listerine type mouth wash 2x a day.


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## GuitarsCanada

Robert1950 said:


> Depends on who you work with and who you are exposed to and whether any of these people are considered high risk for cross contamination of some sort. Given that I work with some people who wash their hands once a week, on a good week, I had both flu shots. Been taking them for 15 years now. No side effects, no flu.


I usually get the regualr flu shot and have found it to be helpful. Given the fact that we have the store now and are exposed to 70-80 people a day coming in hacking their brains out all over the place, I thought it was doubly important for us to get it and the H1N1 as well. But oddly enough we both made it until late February without even a sniffle. This cold we had was very minor.


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## Starbuck

Robert1950 said:


> Depends on who you work with and who you are exposed to and whether any of these people are considered high risk for cross contamination of some sort. Given that I work with some people who wash their hands once a week, on a good week, I had both flu shots. Been taking them for 15 years now. No side effects, no flu.
> 
> P.S. I haven't had a respiratory infection in 25 months (knock on wood). I think the biggest factor in this, is my minor obsession with hand sanitizers (up to 8 times a day) and using a listerine type mouth wash 2x a day.


You gotta be carefull with the hand sanitizers... There is something to be said for good bacteria. I'm sure that Proctor and Gamble and the like made HUGE $$$$$ Off the whole H1N1 thing. I have a 4 year old (bacteria factory) and while I think we all had H1N1 in October, it wasn't nearly as bad as the press said it would be. I would think it's my stance on NO antibacteria soaps ect in my house. The one allowance I make is when someone has a cold, new toothbrushes all round, and the door handles and taps get the lysol treatment daily.. So Far, So Good.


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## Robert1950

I have to be at two hospitals tomorrow. I'm using the hand sanitizer.


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## Starbuck

Robert1950 said:


> I have to be at two hospitals tomorrow. I'm using the hand sanitizer.


Oh in THAT situation? Absolutely!


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## Rick31797

I keep a container of hand sanititzer in my car and , when i come out of a store i use it. Sounds like i am paranoid, but i have been sick with flue and a cold this year and i already have health issues so getting just a common cold brings me way down. 
Rick


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## GuitarsCanada

It's officially over. Question is, did it ever officially begin?



> The H1N1 flu pandemic is over, the World Health Organization says.
> 
> In a statement Tuesday, director-general Dr. Margaret Chan said the world is no longer under a pandemic alert and is "moving into the post-pandemic period.”
> 
> “The new H1N1 virus has largely run its course," she said.
> 
> Members of the emergency committee met Tuesday to discuss the pandemic and determined it was no longer the risk it was late last year and earlier this year.
> 
> But that doesn't mean H1N1 has gone away, Chan said.
> 
> "Based on experience with past pandemics, we expect the H1N1 virus to take on the behaviour of a seasonal influenza virus and continue to circulate for some years to come" she said.
> 
> Chan added it was "pure good luck" the pandemic wasn't worse.
> 
> "Pandemics are unpredictable and prone to deliver surprises. No two pandemics are ever alike. This pandemic has turned out to be much more fortunate than what we feared a little over a year ago," she said.
> 
> "This time around, we have been aided by pure good luck. The virus did not mutate during the pandemic to a more lethal form. Widespread resistance to oseltamivir did not develop. The vaccine proved to be a good match with circulating viruses and showed an excellent safety profile."
> 
> She said good vaccination coverage helped keep the virus at bay.
> 
> "Thanks to extensive preparedness and support from the international community, even countries with very weak health systems were able to detect cases and report them promptly," she said. "Had things gone wrong in any of these areas, we would be in a very different situation today.


"


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## mhammer

Somewhere along the way, one would think that public institutions, and the public at large, benefiot from previous experience, and are able to take appropriate precautions such that when potential threats occur, they are detected as such, and responded to appropriately. That's what happened here. One of the reasons why the entire province of BC is not toast and human s'mores right now is because they have learned from previous experience with forest fires, and know what to do (Russia, on the other hand....). Part of why the gulf oil spill took so long to resolve is because no one had ANY experience with such matters and had to improvise.

People may pooh-pooh the H1N1 thing, but would you rather have health officials telling you that yes there IS a deadly pandemic going on in your neighbourhood right now that started last year and you should run for the hills or make out your will now, or tell you that there MIGHT be a pandemic brewing and everyone shoud take these precautionary steps? Public health official are paid for, and tasked with, being vigilant. It's there job to suspect, and thereby protect, not to confirm after the fact. That's the coroner's and pathologist's job.


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## Rick31797

For the families and people that died it did officially begin.


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## GuitarsCanada

Rick31797 said:


> For the families and people that died it did officially begin.


Appreciate the fact that people died on this one, but according to stats total worldwide deaths from this flu are reported at about 14,000. Surely that cannot be considered pandemic status. Especially given the fact that on average, 41,000 people die each year in the US from the regular flu. I would tend to agree with some of what Hammer is saying in that a lot of it may have been averted due to immunization. But something tells me some very loud whistles were blown on this one and somewhere along the way the ball got dropped. Just my worthless opinion here.


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## cheezyridr

scare mongering. that's all it was. i learned something though. after the nonsense i saw going down over this, i'll never get another vaccine willingly


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## GuitarsCanada

cheezyridr said:


> scare mongering. that's all it was. i learned something though. after the nonsense i saw going down over this, i'll never get another vaccine willingly


I would like to take it further and ask why? What was the motive behind it all? It had to be more than just wanting to scare people. Selling a ton of vaccine? Just does not compute to me.


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## dodgechargerfan

GuitarsCanada said:


> I would like to take it further and ask why? What was the motive behind it all? It had to be more than just wanting to scare people. Selling a ton of vaccine? Just does not compute to me.


To justify their jobs??


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## bluesmostly

GuitarsCanada said:


> I would like to take it further and ask why? What was the motive behind it all? It had to be more than just wanting to scare people. Selling a ton of vaccine? Just does not compute to me.


the media likes scare mongering, that is what they do, but as for why? conservative estimates put the cost to Canadian taxpayers at well over 20 billion for the program, do the math on the worldwide campaign, that is a good place to start to answer the 'why' question imo.

lots of interesting info came out during the inquiries into the WHO and Big Pharma and their ties to governments in the inquiries that were conducted. You would have to be a 'coincidence theorist' to not wonder about why blatant conflict of interest appointments are rountinely made to board of directors at the WHO with people who are past/present/future high level managers of large pharma companies.


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## GuitarsCanada

bluesmostly said:


> the media likes scare mongering, that is what they do, but as for why? conservative estimates put the cost to Canadian taxpayers at well over 20 billion for the program, do the math on the worldwide campaign, that is a good place to start to answer the 'why' question imo.
> 
> lots of interesting info came out during the inquiries into the WHO and Big Pharma and their ties to governments in the inquiries that were conducted. You would have to be a 'coincidence theorist' to not wonder about why blatant conflict of interest appointments are rountinely made to board of directors at the WHO with people who are past/present/future high level managers of large pharma companies.


Well you hit one nail on the head, that organization is riddled with corporate dollars. Death and illness are big money


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## keto

I'd be very curious to know the death total for Canada, EXCLUDING the elderly or anyone with chronic disease (pulmonary, for example) contributing factor. I said I'd get a shot if it was easy or convenient. It never really was, and here I am. I know lots of people that were sick but only 1 confirmed H1N1 case. A young (early 30's) extremely overweight coworker, who was in hospital for a few days and really sick for over a week. He's fine. I feel pretty certain though that others around me who were sick may have had it, heck *I* may have had it, but I never got so sick I couldn't function day-to-day.


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## keeperofthegood

Excluding the already ill in Canada?

I think it was 2, maybe 3 but for sure 2. Total deaths were 71 last I had looked.


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## GuitarsCanada

keto said:


> I'd be very curious to know the death total for Canada, EXCLUDING the elderly or anyone with chronic disease (pulmonary, for example) contributing factor. I said I'd get a shot if it was easy or convenient. It never really was, and here I am. I know lots of people that were sick but only 1 confirmed H1N1 case. A young (early 30's) extremely overweight coworker, who was in hospital for a few days and really sick for over a week. He's fine. I feel pretty certain though that others around me who were sick may have had it, heck *I* may have had it, but I never got so sick I couldn't function day-to-day.


The death total attributed to H1N1 in "North America" was 3642


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## mhammer

GuitarsCanada said:


> Appreciate the fact that people died on this one, but according to stats total worldwide deaths from this flu are reported at about 14,000. Surely that cannot be considered pandemic status. Especially given the fact that on average, 41,000 people die each year in the US from the regular flu. I would tend to agree with some of what Hammer is saying in that a lot of it may have been averted due to immunization. But something tells me some very loud whistles were blown on this one and somewhere along the way the ball got dropped. Just my worthless opinion here.


As I've probably said before somewhere in this thread, determining what the proper tone of any public messaging will be is a tough call. On the one hand, you don't want to be fear-mongering if you can help it. On the other hand, as SARS taught us, contagion can work a LOT faster than the human propensity for taking evasive or preventative action. So yeah, when the choice is between issuing a calm message that may still leave plenty of gaps, and issuing a more strident one that gets the job done, authorities do what needs to be done. In retrospect it can seem like overkill, and they probably know its overkill at the time too. But it DID get you washing your hands.

It is probably too early to tell just yet, but I for one would be curious to see what impact the "epidemic" of hand sanitizers and reduction in handshakes and kisses had on other less lethal communicable diseases. Remember that all that "hand hygiene stuff" was a by-product of what we know in general about impeding contagion, and not anything specific to H1N1. Historically, washing one's hands WAS one of the biggest factors in reducing infant mortality. ( Ignaz Semmelweis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )

Did this share something in common with Y2K and Comet Kouhoutek and handing over your larger-than-acceptable toothpaste tube to airport security? Maybe.


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## GuitarsCanada

So we are finished with H1N1 for the time being, on the topic of fear mongering we have this out today



> LONDON - A new superbug could spread around the world after reaching Britain from India — in part because of medical tourism — and scientists say there are almost no drugs to treat it.
> 
> Researchers said on Wednesday they had found a new gene called New Delhi metallo-beta-lactamase, or NDM-1, in patients in South Asia and in Britain.
> 
> NDM-1 makes bacteria highly resistant to almost all antibiotics, including the most powerful class called carbapenems, and experts say there are no new drugs on the horizon to tackle it.
> 
> With international travel in search of cheaper healthcare increasing, particularly for procedures such as cosmetic surgery, Timothy Walsh, who led the study, said he feared the new superbug could soon spread across the globe.
> 
> “At a global level, this is a real concern,” Walsh, from Britain’s Cardiff University, said in telephone interview.
> 
> “Because of medical tourism and international travel in general, resistance to these types of bacteria has the potential to spread around the world very, very quickly. And there is nothing in the (drug development) pipeline to tackle it.”


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