# Chord progressions and the scales that go with them?? Help me!



## Shooter177 (Aug 8, 2012)

Let me begin by saying I have very little formal training! And almost zero knowledge of music theroy, so my question is how do you know what scales/position to play(solo) with a given chord progression? I am guessing this is a fairly in depth answer so anything that will lead me in the right direction would be apreceated!


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

this is relevant to my interests


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## WannabeGood (Oct 24, 2007)

Shooter177 said:


> Let me begin by saying I have very little formal training! And almost zero knowledge of music theroy, so my question is how do you know what scales/position to play(solo) with a given chord progression? I am guessing this is a fairly in depth answer so anything that will lead me in the right direction would be apreceated!


I'll also play. But unlike the OP I have almost zero knowledge of music *theory*. 

Regards,


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## Shooter177 (Aug 8, 2012)

Oh also very little knowledge of spell check! Lol


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

It would be useful to know what styles of music you're focusing on. Also, do you know enough theory to figure out what key a song is in? For knowing what key you're in I could go into a long answer talking about tonics and dominants, but honestly if the first chord and the last chord are the same that's probably the key. There are lots of exceptions but you'll get to them later. If you want to go into all that now just let me know.
Start with Pentatonic scales and blues scales - a blues scale is just a minor pentatonic with one extra note. If the song is in A minor then solo using an A minor pentatonic. If it's in E minor then solo with an E minor pent. If it's in A major you might want to try an A major pent but honestly most of the time you'll still prefer the minor pent. 
The more comfortable you are with pentatonics the easier it is to go into other scales. Take a pentatonic and add 2 notes (the right 2 notes) and you'll get a major scale. Change one of those notes and you get a lydian scale. Change the other one and you get a mixolydian. It can be fun and useful to memorize patterns for the fancier scales but the better you are with pents the better you'll be able to actually use all of those other scales. Don't be in a hurry to get to fancier stuff.

On the off chance you're into jazz and already beyond my first answer - Ionian or Lydian with a M7 or a 6, Mixolydian with a Dom7 (or 9, 11, 13), Dorian with a m6, Aeolian with most minors, diminished on an alt 5, Phrygian with minors especially for metal or flamenco.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

http://www.ezfolk.com/uke/Tutorials/1four5/music-theory/key-chord-chart/3-key-chord-chart.jpg

For starters.

Peace, Mooh.


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## HaydenMusic (May 2, 2013)

Try this site: http://www.musictheory.net/lessons

They're lessons are simple, but in-depth enough that you'll be able to find your answer. 

Your question is based on knowing your music keys inside and out. That means, you need to know the notes that make a particular key, as well what the diatonic chord sequence is. 

Let me know if I can help you out more. Good luck!
_

http://hayden-music.com_


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## Shooter177 (Aug 8, 2012)

This is great info thanks guys!


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## deadear (Nov 24, 2011)

Start with the twelve bar blues and the minor pentatonic. 1,4,5 chords. In C , C is the one, F is the forth and G is the fifth. Solo at the C at eighth fret. Minor pentatonic box 1. ( C, d,e,F,G,a,b.this is the key of C). Just play the power chords C5, F5, G5.


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

This is a huge topic and, in a way, can take a lifetime to learn and still not touch all of the bases. That's part of what makes it fun.  When you ask people the theory behind soloing over chords, most people will tell you that it comes down to scales and modes. Some people, especially jazzers, will say it comes down to chord tones. I like to think it can be even further broken down to intervals. To me, intervals are the basis of music as we know it, in many ways. An interval is basically two notes. One note on its own doesn't really have a particular feel. If you play an open A string, is it major? Minor? Happy? Sad? You can't really tell. But a second note gives it context. If you play the open A string and then play the 11th fret of the D string you'll hear a happy kinda sound. If you play the open A string and the 1st fret of the D string you will get a very tense sound. I encourage you to experiment with this a lot more and see how each note on the D string sounds in relation to the open A note. It's a good exercise to hear how intervals work, without needing any theory.

Anyways, when you solo over a chord, what you are doing, in a way, is adding a note to that chord. So, say someone plays an Em chord and you play a D note, you have now created an Em7 tonality. This is why the pentatonic scale is such a safe one to play. The notes from the pentatonic scale usually relate quite strongly to the chords in your average progression. 

Here are the notes of E minor pentatonic:

E G A B D

Now, if someone plays a chord sequence in Em that goes Em G D C, those chords are spelled out thus:

E G B

G B D

D F# A

C E G

As you can see, the Em and G chords are made up of three notes each that are all found right in the E minor pentatonic scale. So, over those two chords, you have a three out of five chance of playing one of the notes that are in the actual chord. That's the strongest relationship you can get between the chords and your soling. The extra pentatonic notes outside of those chords would kind of extend the chords when you play them. So, the A note played over the G chord would give the chord a Gadd9 sound, which is a pretty sweet sound. The E note over the G chord gives it a Gadd6 sound, which is nice, too. The only slightly weird one is the A note over the Em chord, which doesn't sound bad, per se, but it sounds like it wants to move on to somewhere else. 

As for the D and C chords, the notes from the E minor pentatonic all play well with both of those. If you were playing with the full E minor scale (E F# G A B C D) you would have a couple of notes that wouldn't quite work with the D and C chords. The C note from the E minor scale would give the D chord a dominant seventh feel (D7) and the F# note would be pretty weird over the C chord. 

Anyhow, that's a long post, but an extremely short introduction to one way of looking at how solos fit over chord progressions.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

I stumbled upon this site and found his descriptions of Chord and Scale theory easy to grasp. He provides a lot of chord diagrams and progression examples and even demystifies modes! Some of you may find it helpful.

http://endofthegame.net/guitar/


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## StringNavigator (May 15, 2021)

Shooter177 said:


> Let me begin by saying I have very little formal training! And almost zero knowledge of music theory, so my question is how do you know what scales/position to play(solo) with a given chord progression? I am guessing this is a fairly in depth answer so anything that will lead me in the right direction would be appreciated!


*Indubitably !*

My first inclination is to say "Forget About It! At the beginning stage, our first responsibility is to learn the tradition. The master tells the apprentice what to do without giving any theory. The apprentice learns the craft and develops all kinds of questions while working and producing products. Don't ask why, the master won't even speak with you. Eventually the apprentice figures it out alone and "owns" the tricks of the trade. You can't buy experience. The master will assist in secret because they know what you are going through. They went through it, too. They will only foster your education as you assist their shoppe.

Read, play and memorise as many tunes as we can find. Develop a repertoire of 33 Tunes. Your favourite jazz standard tunes. Know how to comp the changes in a few places. Play the melody. Start with the Real Book, BUT memorise the tunes. Only then will you know the proper questions to ask. I still know all my "times tables" at my age. My teacher never 'splained why it works. We just memorised it. Today, teachers spend the whole year 'splainin and no one can read OR write OR 'rhythmatik... It's the utmost vanity to ask why when one should simply try. We should do the time first! 

You've got to walk this lonesome valley
You've got to walk it by yourself
Nobody else can walk it for you
You've got to walk it by yourself.

Jesus walked this lonesome valley
And he had to walk it by Himself
Nobody else could walk it for Him
He had to walk it by Himself.

You must go and stand your trials
You have to stand it by yourself
Nobody else can stand it for you
You have to stand it by yourself.

Historically, Jazz is considered by most to be an aural tradition, gleaned from others while young and maintained through life by playing often with your "cadre" of musical associates in the root cellar. Tunes were rarely played from the written word, unless one was woodshedding by themselves in the barn. There was no-time for tyros on the band-stand.

Life in 1900 was fraught with hardships and boredom. Impromptu Sports & Hobbies were an important part of a child's upbringing to provide a medium for passing the time when not busy as they matured into adults. Music was prized by most. Children were taught to play piano, violin and wind instruments. There were no "time vampires" lurking about like video-games and internet-sites to suck off one's valuable time and leave them with nothing gained but the latest propaganda. People amused themselves with whittling and harmonicas while watching the trains arrive. And they got good at music.

For jazz musicians, it's critical to have a pocket-full of standards handy. One can then sit-in at ease or meet-up with players on trips. Although the Real Book was a tome of awe back in the 70's and it's still indispensable in your library, it's no fun playing with one's nose in a book. Better to feel like flying down a known road. On the other hand, memorising tunes, their changes and melodies, can be a tiring and time consuming process. Life may get in the way, unless one knows how tunes are crafted...

It behooves a jazz musician to know how tunes are put together, the Mix & Match, the encapsulation of phrases into musical cells. We should know how to think on our feet before claiming to be ready to jump in with an ensemble session, taking a quick gig, attending a studio session, starting with a new group when getting the call from a band that is already working.

*Three Great Books On Tunes & Changes*
(The following information is gleaned from internet reviews and ads, but I have all three books and would recommend them fully to anyone learning standard jazz changes to play tunes. Quoted prices are nominal and approximate. I'm not a seller, I'm a retired reader.)

Improvising Jazz $15.00 128 pages.
A great little book by Jerry Coker, 1964.
A book for all instruments! Fits into your instrument case, and stays there!
A Vade Mecum at 7.25" x 9.25" x 0.5".

A smallish book, it looks deceiving, however it can be read over and over and physically kept in your instrument case like a "Strunk & White" for jazz, ready when you want it. Keep it next to your instrument for ready reference, especially at those awkward moments when the ensemble becomes stuck for material to play. There's a vast number of topics presented in this book; a major source material for reference, packed with usable info you'll need time to absorb. A book which can and probably should be read many times.

Although superseded by larger, more expensive and comprehensive works, its a classic that every jazz musician should own. A gem published in 1964, packed with insight and applicable improv techniques as relevant today as they were 57 years ago. Its language is aimed at beginners, but it's a fun read for musicians at any level.

An excellent source of unique perspective, advice, and experience from noted jazz musician and educator, Jerry Coker, who focuses not only on how to play, but how to learn and develop further and gain further depth and perspective. Jerry Coker's dedication to jazz education is evident. This book had to be written as an aide-memoire for his first year students.

An analysis of melody and functional harmony, its one of the first systematic attempts to organize jazz theory. Meant to be an easy-to-follow, self-teaching guide giving insights into jazz improv.

A comprehensive summary of jazz theory and how it can be applied to various situations, from the solo performer to the band. Very concise writing and technical coverage, a book to check out if other theory books don't "sum it up" well. A lot to take in on the jazz theory side.

Chapter Topics:
Outlining major concepts of jazz in band settings: Blues, Harmony, Swing
Basic theory, such as chords and scales
Superimposition and altered extensions
How poly-chords work
How to employ melody and rhythm and develop an individual melodic style
How to develop ideas for motifs and modified them in improv.
How to make a solo interesting to various listeners
How to approach the first jam session; organising a jazz ensemble session
How to develop the ear
How to transcribe from recordings.
How to combine intellect with spontaneity

Exercises:
Each chapter has practice ideas at the end: practical exercises and musical examples

Charts:
Full-Page Charts that are understandable and clear, showing:
Possible chord superimpositions
Possible tone extensions for various chord types
Applicable scales
Six common turnarounds
The dozen variations on 12-Bar changes by substitution
Suggested Piano LH voicings

Tunes:
The book is 90% discussion and application with the big Appendix at the end providing 84 characteristic chord progressions (32-Bar tunes) to illustrate the entire discussion. All types of chord changes to practice. Written like boiler plates (See Ralph Patt's Vanilla Tunes Site) they're worth the price of admission, categorised by common features, modulations, starting chords and written in Roman Numeral notation to fit any key. To avoid royalties, it contains only the changes of standard tunes without titles or melodies.

Appendix D tunes (suggested/guessed at titles, not exact):
01. Why Not
02. Our Love is Here To Stay
03. Chelsea Bridge
04. Piccadilly
05. Prelude to A Kiss
06. Lil' Darlin'
07. I Cover the Waterfront
08. Rose Room ( In A Mellow Tone)
09. Street of Dreams
10. Undecided
11. The Chase
12. Bright Eyes
13. Opus No.1
14. Crazy Rhythm
15. This Can't Be Love
16. Broadway
17. It's Almost Like Being in Love
18. Just Friends
19. Moonglow
20. I'll See You in My Dreams
21. Be My Love
22. There'll Never Be Another You
23. Blues (Like Blues For Alice)
24. Algo Bueno (Woody 'N' You)
25. I'll Keep Loving You
26. Best Thing For You is Me
27. I'm Getting Sentimental Over You
28. Tour De Force
29. Stella by Starlight
30. Good Bait
31. Get Happy
32. Topsy
33. Jeepers Creepers
34. Tour De Force
35. Five Bros.
36. Airegin
37. I Didn't Know About You
38. Star Eyes
39. Taking A Chance On Love
40. Broadway
41. Polka Dots & Moon Beams
42. S' Wonderful
43. Once In A While
44. Tea For Two
45. Prelude To A Kiss
46. Baubles, Bangles And Beads
47. Godchild
48. Between The Devil And The Deep Blue Sea
49. If You Could See Me Now
50. Parisian Thoroughfare
51. Lover
52. I'll Remember April
53. Long Ago And Far Away
54. Autumn In New York
55. China Boy
56. Fairyland
57. Idaho
58. My Old Flame
59. Opus No.1
60. Chelsea Bridge
61. Easy Living
62. Darn That Dream
63. Half-Nelson (Ladybird)
64. For Heaven's Sake
65. In A Sentimental Mood
66. Smoke Get In Your Eyes
67. Best Thing For You Is Me
68. If I Had You
69. They Can't Take That Away From Me
70. I Never Knew (Morning Fun)
71. These Foolish Things
72. My One And Only Love
73. Rosetta (Yardbird Suite)
74. Don't You Know I Care
75. Gone With the Wind
76. Tangerine
77. I Love You
78. Too Marvelous for Words
79. How High the Moon
80. Tune-Up
81. Solar
82. Laura
83. Cherokee
84. Star Eyes

PS: Also check out these tunes with:
Ralph Patt, Guitar Guy, New Orleans Jam Book, Jim Bottorff, Song Trellis, iReal Pro, Ted Greene, 

---------------------------------
Jerry Coker co-authored a larger, more expensive book entitled Hearin' the Changes - Dealing with Unknown Tunes by Ear 1997 $30.00. Having both of these books is a real treat for blowers and compers who chase the changes.

This larger book is the definitive study of changes from hundreds of carefully chosen tunes from the jazz musician's repertoire, comparing them, linking them by commonalities, and codifying harmonic traits that clarify our understanding of how progressions work.

A means to learn and memorize tunes more easily, it's key to acquiring the skill to recognise and cognise changes by ear. It explains how we hear and understand music, establishes methods by which we can learn to develop our musical hearing more efficiently, and addresses the importance of attitudes that affect the learning process. It also offers encouragement, suggests ways to continue study, and ways to personalize the materials beyond what is presented in this book.

Appendix A
Lists the 500 tunes used in this study, indicating which tunes contain more than one harmonic trait or cell, to facilitate more efficient choices of tunes to learn. Gathering "Like" tunes together as you develop your repertoire.

Appendix B
Valuable tips for ear training.

Appendix C
Charts or "road maps" for ten tunes, in Roman Numeral Degree Notation, showing how changes can be more easily understood, memorized, played, and transposed to any key.

------------------------------------------
Another great book in this vein is:

Jamey Aebersold Jazz Volume 76, How To Learn Tunes: The Quick and Easy Method for Remembering Melodies and Chord Changes
by David Baker 1997 $30.00

A quick and easy method for learning and memorizing melodies and changes to any tune in any key with the most commonly used changes. It teaches how to recognize and remember cells visually and aurally. The book, CD and supplement provide composition that will have you memorizing and understanding how changes work. Leave the fake books behind? Well.. Bit a quick glance of the chord chart at a jam session may be all you'll need after digesting this book.
...


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## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

Zombie thread...


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

Merlin said:


> Zombie thread...


Yup. 

Cool post though, @StringNavigator . +1 on Hearin' the Changes.


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## MauricioSouza (Jul 2, 2021)

I'm working on a very useful book by Howard Roberts on this subject. It's all about the keys in jazz chord progressions.


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## StringNavigator (May 15, 2021)

Merlin said:


> Zombie thread...


LOL! I knew someone was going to scribble de dribble.
You must live for those moments, eh...?

No one held a gun to your head..,
Why did you read the Zombie Thread?

Some people need a hobby...

If I hadn't bumped the thread, would you have seen the good post by *MauricioSouza?*
No...


...


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## MauricioSouza (Jul 2, 2021)

Correcting, the most recent link is this.


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## Percy (Feb 18, 2013)

chord progressions and scales that go with them
the definitive chords/triads of the key area and the modes of the key area
make up your own chord changes
and your off like a hot dam


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Ron Middlebrook's "Scales and Modes - In the Beginning" is a good reference for the application of scale/chord relationships. Lots of books and vids out there


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