# 5 ways for bands to avoid complaining about lame gigs



## woodnoize (Jun 18, 2009)

from Gorehound at: 5 WAYS FOR BANDS TO AVOID COMPLAINING ABOUT the LAME GIG SITUATION. « Gorehound’s Roots Guitar Tips

*5 WAYS FOR BANDS TO AVOID COMPLAINING ABOUT the LAME GIG SITUATION.*

Paid to play? Got stuck with the bill for the hall rental? Outraged the the sound and poster guys are considered a legitimate expense but the actual bands that customers pay money to see, get paid last and least? Paying for bad sound or Promo? It happens because musicians let it happen.

You have to ask questions when you get offered a gig. Make sure that if you expect to be paid, you talk about that first, before you talk about dates, stage times and posters. Self managed bands are notoriously slack when it comes to “taking care of business”. If the only questions you ask are; “when and where”, you should not be handling any business matters.

*#1- Know what the Promoters responsibilities are. *Paying for a Hall/Venue, PA/soundguy, supplying a backline, posters and stage management is the promotors job. Not yours! When a promoter asks you to play without a guarantee, ask him who’s gear(Amps, Drums) you will be using? Because moving amplifiers and drumsets cost money! Playing for free is one thing but equipment doesn’t move itself. I’d recommend showing up with acoustic Guitars and a set of Bongos at non-guaranteed shows.

From my experience, nobody in their right mind, would ask you to play a party at their residence, quote the band a fee, and then give you some lame explanation about why they can’t pay what they offered. Your average person would not have the nerve. But this happens all the time with “professional” promoters at club and hall gigs that are handled with oral agreements.

When one of the other bands that he hired, doesn’t show up(or shows up minus an amp or drumset), this is not your bands problem. We are not obligated to change our stage-time or lend gear. “Oh this band came a from out of town, do you mind if we pay them, and not give you the guarantee we promised”? Yes, I mind. That is entirely the promotors problem.

Unexpected expenses? That’s too bad, the promoter should probably have thought about that before you offered us the gig.

*#2- Don’t be desperate/EASY.* If you need experience, get it on your own terms. Don’t exploit yourself, thinking it will pay off eventually. It doesn’t. Sound guys don’t work for free, promotors don’t work for free, and clubs are making a profit from your hard work. It’s marginally better to be a whore, than a slut.

*#3- Promote yourself.* Everyone tries to, to some degree. Don’t be humble, promotors count on bands having an “awe, shucks, do you really like us?” approach. If you can guarantee a good performance and promote yourself, you will be in a much better position to deal with someone that wants to exploit you.

Think cross-promotion, never just promote one artist, event or piece of merch. Every gig is an opportunity to promote your next gig, your disc, t-shirts ect. Shameless self-promoters, are the ones that succeed.

*#4- Know what you are worth. *Experience is the only way to separate amateurs from professionals. There is nothing wrong with being semi-pro. Just because you have to work at a day job, does not mean that you should play for free because you don’t need the money. If you are playing music as a hobby, then don’t ask people to pay money for tickets and a cover charge. Unless it is clearly billed as a talent show, it is unethical to charge money for something that you offer for free. Play Charity events, jams or talent shows. If you don’t think that what you do is worth money, what are you doing on a stage?

Music is a business. If you give your product or service away, you will not be in business very long.

*#5- Look up or google “offer and acceptance” and “oral agreement”. *When you accept a bogus offer, with no details regarding payment, other acts, exact stage times, sound-checks or promotion/, you are the one agreeing to a slanted situation! Any promoter that will not offer an agreement in writing, is planning to rip you off. Tell them that you don’t deal with illegitimate offers. And tell every other musician/band that you know, who the shady promoters/venues are. 

Building a network of professionals, that can help you spot the unprofessional promoters, will save you a lot of time. Clubs and promoters blackball musicians for stupid things like playing at competing venues, and playing too frequently. Musicians need to share this info, with musicians and club-goers.

Ever notice that a large percentage of promoters are washed-up, former musicians? They know exactly what they are doing, they have been through it before. Incompetent musicians usually make very incompetent businessmen. We have to learn how to be assertive without seeming aggressive. They gave up on performing because there is too much competition from great players that will work for free. They are counting on this situation continuing!

It’s a “BUYER BEWARE” situation. You can’t complain about eating shit, when you ordered it from the menu!


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

awesome article man! thanks for sharing...

also one note...stay away from managers like this!
[youtube]v9ueI77PlcM[/youtube]


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

here's a really quick plan,it involves only one step.

you are a musician,noone really gives a shit about you. you are just a half step socially below the girl working the 7-11 counter,in a class system.

play where you can,when you can. because its in your heart,your blood,your guts,your soul.

if you want to avoid having to complain,get a job a mcdonalds,you can make a decent steady pay(relatively speaking) making other human beings sick.

if you are a musician,you will just play,whenever and wherever you can. there is NO half measure. 

if you want to have another job,you have to look after your other buisness,you have to make payments on your big screen t.v,car,etc fine. but if you are truely a musician,youll just play.

musicians arent buisnessmen. im so sick of hearing about this shit. if its in your soul,you know it. just play. and ill go see your g-d band. and when i feel(and others,people dont have to be musicians to feel this) hear you theyll say" hey,i wanna see these guys again".

music is NOT a buisness,its a way of life.its what you feel in your soul that you cant put into words or pictures. 

if your in music for the money,get out of music,because you are trying to sell something,to someone who isnt willing to pay you alot for it.

im sorry,i dont mean any disrespect,but there are no g-d get rich,heres how to do it schemes.....play because you feel it in your heart,in your soul,christ just play. and **** money grubbing promoters.

you can ban me for being so vehement in my reply,but damnit,i see so many kids who think they are gonna get rich. and they get screwed. you dont make a living off music. you live it.

Bobby


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Bobby said:


> here's a really quick plan,it involves only one step.
> 
> you are a musician,noone really gives a shit about you. you are just a half step socially below the girl working the 7-11 counter,in a class system.
> 
> ...



Music may be a "way of life" but there's no good reason to allow yourself to get screwed. NEVER play for free, EVER! That devalues what every other working musician is trying to do.


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## Fader (Mar 10, 2009)

Good tips for sure. Thanks.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Music may be a "way of life" but there's no good reason to allow yourself to get screwed. NEVER play for free, EVER! That devalues what every other working musician is trying to do.


So I shouldn't have played at that party all those years ago?

(One of my roommates at the time hosted it, and it was an impromptu kind of thing, lots of fun, not really the same thing.)


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I've had two paying gigs in 11 years of playing guitar, but most "shows" were high school assemblies and the annual coffee house. The first time my band got paid was when my friend out of town put on a show and we played.

I'm posting this around, if the OP doesn't mind


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Music may be a "way of life" but there's no good reason to allow yourself to get screwed. NEVER play for free, EVER! That devalues what every other working musician is trying to do.


as i said in my edit,i may have been more vehement then most would have liked.

in fact,im sure of it. if you dont want to play for free,and figure what your doing is worth something,fine. as i said,ill go see you,and ill pay.

im just tired of this"music is a buisness" attitude. noone gave me the damn memo.ill be 32 in a couple of weeks. thats over half my life of playing music every chance i get,anywhere i can. i never played because i thought i could make a lot of money at it,though ive made decent amounts at times.

if i offended anyone,that certainly wasnt my intention but damnit. as i paraphrased Robert Fripp another time on these boards"you have to decide early on if you are in the music buisness,or in the buisness of making music".

i just get pissed at these "steps to make it in the music industry" type posts. why not just make donuts,or shiny plastic cars,or,****,i dunno. 

it makes it all sound like were whores trying to wrench a profit out of something.

maybe im just out of touch.

Bobby


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Some of us want to make a bit of money instead of putting 110% effort (time, energy, funds) into something with zero return.

Music is a business, always has been always will be. War drums - the business of politics between tribes. Pop music; the business of selling trends and items to a vulnerable (and rich, thanks parents!) demographic. If you don't want to get paid that's cool; but other people want to be able to eat 3 meals a day if they spend 8 hours a day working on material, sound, stage presence etc.


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## Phlegethon (Dec 18, 2009)

at risk of sounding like one of these "whores" you're talking about, getting into the music business to a degree via teaching as the main means of providing a steady income has always been my focus. bottom line is, I want to do something and be my own boss. in that sense trying to use music to make you your money that you live off of needs to be thought of as a business that must keep itself alive and profitable so it doesn't die a dog's death. 

I actually LIKE that article and what it has to say. I don't believe in the "starving artist" syndrome. . .if someone doesn't value their work by accepting deals that leave them holding the short end of the stick, then I won't support them because they weren't giving themselves due respect (by putting their foot down and making sure they get paid well, NOT putting up with promoter BS, advertising themselves, like the article says). I have my own issues with the "music is a business" attitude as well. but at the end of the day I'm NOT willing to sell myself short, my time as a teacher is valuable. I charge accordingly now that I have the experience to back what I do, and I demand (politely, of course) that I be paid my dues either with respect or money. it's got me much farther than being meek and mild. in one year I've kept all my students (until summer rolled around. seems learning guitar is a winter sport lol), became a writer for GC, was very close to being a prototype tester for two new seymour duncan seven string pickups, and made some good money doing it. these things wouldn't have happened if I waited for them to come. . I went out and made myself heard over someone who lets their sense of modesty interfere with business sense and "plays for the music" 

I may be considered a sellout for admitting that I do this with the primary goal of making a profit, but at the end of the day I think it would be much more rewarding to pay the bills by doing this over working full time at a job that I would consider less fufilling/profitable otherwise


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

If someone intends to profit from my time and talent then I don't see why I shouldn't get paid as well. At 54, I've done a lot for free and a lot for money and most somewhere in between. What I have learned is that *no one gets to take advantage of me *- whether I'm swinging a guitar or a hammer.


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## gregsguitars (Aug 16, 2010)

Your gig is as only lame as YOU make it as well.


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## gorehound1313 (Nov 24, 2009)

I don't want alienate semi-pro players that just want to get out to play, and honestly don't care if they cover their expenses. I know that it's more trouble than it's worth keeping track of that stuff.
I don't see why we can't make promotion, postering and sound reinforcement, a "just for fun" proposition as well. I would love to see more bands getting together and putting on shows for each other. Most bands can't play locally every week, why not learn about the business side of music, while you are making contacts?
The cigar chomping Rueben Kincaid manager type no longer exists. At least one person in every band HAS to know management, marketing, and event promotion or no one is going to take you seriously. 
As far as saying music isn't a business, yes when you take the step from playing recitals, parties or talent shows for free, to accepting a fee for performing, you (and your band) have started a company. When a group of people get together to perform a task or service which they will eventually be compensated for, they have started a business! 
If promoters are calling you, offering gigs, you should set a minimum rate for performing.


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## Spikezone (Feb 2, 2006)

Bobby said:


> im just tired of this"music is a buisness" attitude...i just get pissed at these "steps to make it in the music industry" type posts.


I think this article was originally posted to try to get the message across to people that will play on the cheap that they are undermining those who are trying to make a living doing what they love. And I don't care what you said in your previous post, musicians who play for nothing are the jerks who are making it impossible for anyone to earn a living as musicians. Nobody said anything about getting rich, it's all about making a living doing what you love, whether it's your sole occupation OR supplementing your day job. Most musicians have to have day jobs BECAUSE there isn't a market to make a living doing it.



Bobby said:


> damnit. as i paraphrased Robert Fripp another time on these boards"you have to decide early on if you are in the music buisness,or in the buisness of making music".


I don't think you get what Fripp is talking about at all. That's the extreme case he's talking about, and those kind of musicians that are in it just as a business get no respect from me, but we're talking here about the people trying to make a living. I started playing as a boy because I loved music (AND STILL DO!), but if anyone wants to come and hear my band and have a good time, somebody needs to pony up-it's MY TALENT they are exploiting to have their good time, and I don't like to be exploited. The way you talk YOU are belittling talented players by telling them they and their years of work are not really worth anything and they shouldn't expect to be remunerated for it.



Bobby said:


> it makes it all sound like were whores trying to wrench a profit out of something.


WHORES???? Trying to wrench a profit??? How about make a living? Wouldn't you like to be making a living doing what you love to do?



Bobby said:


> maybe im just out of touch.


Yes, you just might be. And way out of line, too.

-Mikey


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## Gene Machine (Sep 22, 2007)

While I agree in principal with the OP, I think anyone is naive to think they will walk into a bar, drop a contract on the table and say "pay me $1000 or I walk" because, they will walk out with a boot in their arse.

In this day and age, bar owners can pay some shmuck $100 to DJ or throw an Ipod into a PA for the night. If a new band is starting off, they may have to market themselves accordingly, as their starting value is next to nothing. "Oh gee, another classic rock band that plays Taking Care of Business.....snooze". I'm not saying that bands should give everything away. Not at all. 

But 'advice' like the OP makes it seem like the musician is in the driver's seat for negotiation, when really they're not. A band needs to be tight, have a good show, good selection of music, play the right venues for their style, etc. Once they have all this, they can charge what people are willing to pay. This is all part of the business too.


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## Spikezone (Feb 2, 2006)

I agree with you Gene, but I think that a contract should be signed when the gig is set up in the first place. You can't just walk in at the arranged time to play waving a contract around, of course that doesn't work, but I would like to think that if it's taken care of ahead of time, that's also the business end of things. I haven't gigged for a while, but this is near and dear to me because I have a daughter that is trying to make a music career for herself. She plays solo or in a band and she always makes more money in her solo gigs and I think it is pathetic that there's less money in it per person for a band (great for her, of course!), especially when they are playing for people to drink and party, where a solo gig is usually a lot lower key with a lot less alcohol being consumed.
-Mikey


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

we used to gig 3 or 4 nights a week back in the 80's. we often played for drinks, or as much as $100/night each. wooohooo! we were making big money! hahahaha. no for real though, we were playing dives most folks would be scared to go into, and parties for a particular biker club who's name i won't mention. we did it to have fun, party on the cheap, and meet girls. for us it wasn't "making a living" and i seriously doubt we were taking anything from the guys for whom it was.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i play a lot of charities and fundraisers for free. my band played the pickering ribfest back in june. they handed us a check for a grand, and i handed it right back.

i'm trying to create a brand - a franchise - a product. if it turns out to be good, and people want it, i'm confident that we will get paid.

if it turns out to be a dismal failure, we'll probably be having way too much fun to notice.


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

Spikezone said:


> I think this article was originally posted to try to get the message across to people that will play on the cheap that they are undermining those who are trying to make a living doing what they love. And I don't care what you said in your previous post, musicians who play for nothing are the jerks who are making it impossible for anyone to earn a living as musicians. Nobody said anything about getting rich, it's all about making a living doing what you love, whether it's your sole occupation OR supplementing your day job. Most musicians have to have day jobs BECAUSE there isn't a market to make a living doing it.
> 
> 
> musicians who play for free are making it harder for others? so times in my life where i taught someone something,or played at a jam session,or anytime i made any sound on the instrument without charging someone,ive been making it hard for others? well that certainly was my intent,wasnt it? i mean this is all i do,so id really want to make things hard for everyone who does it......wait,that doesnt make any sense,does it?
> ...


i sure got flamed alot for this one(the whole damn thread in general). ive been away,i had some stuff to do. but anyway, my point was never to belittle or say musicians shouldnt get paid for what they do. im a musician,that would be sort of ridiculous. if someone handed me a cheque,of course id take it. im simply talking about music being a vocation,not a get rich scheme, and ill stick by that.i went out of my way to say that id go pay to see someone play,and it got all misinterpreted. 

but if your playing money to make music,thats just stupid,i dont give a damn what anyone says. you play music because something deep inside you moves you to. and you wont convince me otherwise. you dont have to be a starving artist,no. you can make money,theres nothing wrong with that. but if its your main motivation,ive got a pyramid scheme id like you to invest in.

Bobby


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

david henman said:


> ...i play a lot of charities and fundraisers for free. my band played the pickering ribfest back in june. they handed us a check for a grand, and i handed it right back.
> 
> i'm trying to create a brand - a franchise - a product. if it turns out to be good, and people want it, i'm confident that we will get paid.
> 
> if it turns out to be a dismal failure, we'll probably be having way too much fun to notice.


this is what i mean,and what i was trying to say in my last post,as well as in the earlier ones.

did you play those shows to make money? of course not. would it be wrong for you to have accepted the money? not in my opinion,i would have taken it.you chose not to,which is fine as well.

the point isnt the effing money. its that you did this out of something that hopefully is real that you feel inside of you. if you get paid,great. but if you started with the intention of getting paid,youd be in the wrong line of work,imo.

of course everyone got bent out of shape.....ooooooh.....socialism,bad.....capital,good.....

im really sorry for insisting that you should do something because you feel it,not because you think you might get rewarded.

jaysus christ.

Bobby


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Gene Machine said:


> But 'advice' like the OP makes it seem like the musician is in the driver's seat for negotiation, when really they're not. A band needs to be tight, have a good show, good selection of music, play the right venues for their style, etc. Once they have all this, they can charge what people are willing to pay. This is all part of the business too.


It's my experience that the only bands that have any clout to negotiate anything are the ones who have an established following. In other words, bands who are known to be able to fill the place. It doesn't matter how good you are, how tight you are, how pro your promotion package is - if you can't guarantee to a club manager/owner that you're going to bring in at least 100 people, as far as they're concerned then they're doing you a favour by letting you use their stage.


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

gorehound1313 said:


> I don't want alienate semi-pro players that just want to get out to play, and honestly don't care if they cover their expenses. I know that it's more trouble than it's worth keeping track of that stuff.
> I don't see why we can't make promotion, postering and sound reinforcement, a "just for fun" proposition as well. I would love to see more bands getting together and putting on shows for each other. Most bands can't play locally every week, why not learn about the business side of music, while you are making contacts?
> The cigar chomping Rueben Kincaid manager type no longer exists. At least one person in every band HAS to know management, marketing, and event promotion or no one is going to take you seriously.
> As far as saying music isn't a business, yes when you take the step from playing recitals, parties or talent shows for free, to accepting a fee for performing, you (and your band) have started a company. When a group of people get together to perform a task or service which they will eventually be compensated for, they have started a business!
> If promoters are calling you, offering gigs, you should set a minimum rate for performing.


i assume this(the last part) was aimed at me,at well.

id like to think i addressed many of these points,but i just wanted to say i have been a professional musician. 

if you get together with some people,work out songs,how you are going to present them,etc, that is work. i defenitely wasnt trying to say it isnt a job. 

just dont do it because you think your gonna make alot of money.....blah blah blah......seee my other posts.......its not easy dealing with simpletons,either. maybe i should get paid.

Bobby


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