# Am I wrong?



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Ok. I play in 2 different bands but it looks like it will only be one now. The lead singer in the one band has aspirations of grandeur, which is ok. He has been in the studio, where I have also been recording the guitar parts for him. Its kind of like a partner ship band when he needs us all to chip in but mostly his band for making important decisions. Basically we are just to do what we are told and hand over money when needed. I finally put my foot down and it looks like its strained our 23 year friendship. 
For the last 4 months we've been doing gigs for next to nothing for exposure and marketing of the band. For example we did a ladies night at the Oshawa Corral for $50 a man as an audition. They loved us and we were basically in the door. Of course the leader of the band changed his mind about wanting to play there and that was a waste of time. Other jobs saw us getting paid anywhere from $36 to $50 for a night as other expenses were taking toll. Which I was fine with. The final straw was a Friday the 13th gig he wanted to set up in Port Dover. He lobbied an area restaurant business on the beach to let us use their property to host a free concert to promote some of our new songs. He did this all unbeknownst to me. It was never discussed. The decision was just made. He wanted us all to chip in a couple of hundred dollars each to cover the cost of the production we would need. I would have liked to have been part of the negotiating team when the area business was consulted on this. I would have at least tried to get the business to help with the cost or part of the cost of production since they are basically getting a free band. I guess its not so much that I'm expected to make a financial contribution as these decisions are made with out asking my input. I think its either we are a team or we are not. Well he flipped when I said no and basically said after our May dates are complete he's out. I said OK. 
I think that if I have to start paying to play that it would be time to hang it up altogether. Am I wrong?


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

Paul said:


> You are 100% right.


x2 have to write more, so i'll add that in the same case, i wouldn't feel particularly required to pay the guy for his gig. he booked it, he can cover the costs.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Maybe you need to hire him as a manager or booking agent. Seems like that's what he's doing anyway -- booking you gigs and ripping you off financially...


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

If anyone is interested in my old job you can apply here at overhear http://www.overhear.com/classifieds/ON/a2a2/ 

The Ad:



> Serious Canadian band doing originals is looking for a solid country rock guitar player to join our band. We are currently in the studio working on our newest CD. Good equipment, professionalism, solid commitment and a willingness to re-invest into a serious recording career is expected. No star struck, or greedy musicians please. If your looking to make a fast buck, don't bother calling us. This is not a jam band, Email for tryout schedule.


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## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

A willingness to re-invest.... no fast bucks here.... hmmm sounds promising


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## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

You did the right thing. There are basically two business models at play here.

1. He's the boss who makes the decisions and pays you work for him.

OR

2. You are a partnership (though you may each be responsible for different areas) and share the risks and rewards.

Sounds like he was trying to have his cake and eat it, too.


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## Steeler (Oct 31, 2007)

*You did the right thing.*
I saw the Overhear Ad before your post, and could smell the problems from a mile away.

Nothing wrong with one member being the Boss / Dictator, but he then owes you a fee. 
If you agree to play for less than your standard rate, that's your decision, but he shouldn't assume you will. 

Expecting you to pay for production is insane! 

The wanna-be stars I've worked with often took a loss to pay the band.
They understood it was a cost of their self promotion.
If they ever hit the big time, that's when they will reap their rewards.


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## Steeler (Oct 31, 2007)

> Basically we are just to do what we are told and hand over money when needed.


I'm already married, thank you....


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steeler said:


> *You did the right thing.*
> I saw the Overhear Ad before your post, and could smell the problems from a mile away.
> 
> Nothing wrong with one member being the Boss / Dictator, but he then owes you a fee.
> ...


Thats where the problems started when this loyal subject said no to decisions made without me. I wasn't even given a chance to vote. Through the last 4 months I did, however agree to gigs that were far less than my rate. A couple of them I didn't find out about the rate until 2:00 am when we were paid. But I went with it. Then when this latest gig was planned in Port Dover where I was expected to pay $150 out of my own pocket I said enough was enough. My name is not signed to anything so it is quite easy for the leader of this band to simply replace me at some point and I would have nothing nor any legal ground for compensation.
Thanks to everyone for all their comments. I guess I needed confirmation that I was doing the right thing. My judgment was a bit clouded as I was dealing with someone that has been a friend since 1985. He called me greedy and said I let a dollar come between our friendship. But all I really said was that we were after different things from what I could see and that I had no issues with him finding a replacement for me. But he still made it personal.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steeler said:


> I'm already married, thank you....


lol. Yup I already have a wife to. I guess it seemed like I had 2 wives there for a bit.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

I think there are lots of bands that play for 'exposure', where the money isn't important.

A couple of problems I see with that. First, you can get scooped on club dates by a band that's willing to play for nothing, or next to nothing. They may not be great, but the bar owner wants warm bodies in the seats buying beer, take off the cost of entertainment and that's his profit.
Second, the people hiring you feel some of your value is in what you charge. If you only charged $X last time, he won't want to pay you $Y this time. 

If you're just playing for 'fun', I guess you can just try to cover your costs. If you are trying to make some money at this, well, you have to draw a line in the sand at some point.

I think you've done the right thing.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

hey dwagar. i've moved from calgary (back) to ontario a couple of years ago. i cannot believe what people will play for here, it's truly stupid. any 4 piece band that is bringing a PA and playing for $250 is playing for free, after gas, strings/skins, PA depreciation and etc. but they do it all the time here. it's crazy. even good bands. and then you ask them wtf they're doing, and they say, "well i wasn't doing anything anyways tonight", or something. it's sad, really..


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

suttree said:


> hey dwagar. i've moved from calgary (back) to ontario a couple of years ago. i cannot believe what people will play for here, it's truly stupid. any 4 piece band that is bringing a PA and playing for $250 is playing for free, after gas, strings/skins, PA depreciation and etc. but they do it all the time here. it's crazy. even good bands. and then you ask them wtf they're doing, and they say, "well i wasn't doing anything anyways tonight", or something. it's sad, really..


The cheapest I played for in the past 4 months was a gig, 4 peice for $150. A sacrifice for the band because you never know who will be in the crowd, I was told. Yeah right. I wonder which of the 3 tables that this living room sized place had, the record execs were sitting at.
And of course I get the "Its a paid practice". I don't even think gong out for $400 for a 4 piece for one night is worth it. Especially if the gig is 30 or 40 minutes away. When the trend goes from playing for nothing to it will cost me to play then its time to move on. "Oh but we are going to be stars".


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

*i am wrong*

Terry i dont blame you a bit i would have did the same thing only sooner.I would not like the idea of somebody making decisions for me that cost me money.
I thought bands are suppose to work together, and support each other in there goals..
Having one person calling all the shots and, where the money goes, and how much money to play for, is not good.
Your long time friend has no respect for your option>> If he did he would have went over the plan with everybody, and not after the fact.

You will save money and stress by going your seperate ways. It doesn't look like he " Gets It "

Rick


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

PaulS said:


> A willingness to re-invest.... no fast bucks here.... hmmm sounds promising



It took a couple of days before I started receiving hits on the ad I posted at Overhear. I figure that he'll start getting some hits from all those born yesterday any time now.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

You got to know when to hold em, know when to fold em,
Know when to walk away and know when to run.
You never count your money when youre sittin at the table.
There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealins done.

lofu


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> It took a couple of days before I started receiving hits on the ad I posted at Overhear. I figure that he'll start getting some hits from all those born yesterday any time now.


I've said it before,... P.T. Barnum


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> The cheapest I played for in the past 4 months was a gig, 4 peice for $150....


Wow, that's dirt cheap.

I'd be willing to bet that at some point, you will get an apology from your friend. Sooner or later he will learn, and get someone who knows what they are doing take care of the business end of things.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

Hamm Guitars said:


> Wow, that's dirt cheap.
> 
> I'd be willing to bet that at some point, you will get an apology from your friend. Sooner or later he will learn, and get someone who knows what they are doing take care of the business end of things.


i dunno, i looked at his promo shots, and if'n he ain't learned by now? he probably ain't gonna.


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## Michelle (Aug 21, 2006)

I think you should call Dr. Phil, both the singer and bass player need an intervention. I'm trying to think of a snappy euphemism......


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Michelle said:


> I think you should call Dr. Phil, both the singer and bass player need an intervention. I'm trying to think of a snappy euphemism......


LMAO!!!!!!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Even though I was parting ways with this band and I promised to commit to the 3 gigs in May so he wouldn't be stuck, he went out behind my back and hired someone quickly to screw me. Well it doesn't really screw me as I'm just playing weekends, its not my main job but I know he thinks he screwed me which shows the kind of guy he is. Anyway I made a call and will start gigging with another band next week so no big deal I guess. Accept for the fact that a guy I've known for 23 years wants to try and screw me up because I won't follow him blindly over a cliff.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> The cheapest I played for in the past 4 months was a gig, 4 peice for $150.


I used to play for that too, but that was in 1968.



suttree said:


> hey dwagar. i've moved from calgary (back) to ontario a couple of years ago. i cannot believe what people will play for here, it's truly stupid. any 4 piece band that is bringing a PA and playing for $250 is playing for free, after gas, strings/skins, PA depreciation and etc. but they do it all the time here. it's crazy. even good bands. and then you ask them wtf they're doing, and they say, "well i wasn't doing anything anyways tonight", or something. it's sad, really..


that is crazy, it destroys the market for anyone trying to make reasonable money.


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## Evilmusician (Apr 13, 2007)

Had a band member go out and buy part of a sound system behind a couple of our backs before, than ask for money for monthly payments ! I said no way ! and two weeks later was kicked out (fine by me month later band broke up ,and my replacement was a joke lol!):banana:


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Evilmusician said:


> Had a band member go out and buy part of a sound system behind a couple of our backs before, than ask for money for monthly payments ! I said no way ! and two weeks later was kicked out (fine by me month later band broke up ,and my replacement was a joke lol!):banana:


Yes I have a feeling my replacement is a joke. This was the what was on my msn when I got home last night:

"Hey Terry We found a replacement and we don't need you to play the gigs in May. Our new guitar player needs the gigs to buy a guitar and amp. Hope you don't mind".

So the guy didn't even own equipment. Hmmm. Nice of him to give me a days notice that I wasn't playing when I gave him 3 weeks.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

I followed the ad above and ended up at the myspace page of your old band. On the pics page, theres a shot of the band, with some of them wearing cowboy hats. Someone had commented with a Brokeback Mountain crack - I couldn't help but laugh. I'm such a child ! kjdr


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

bagpipe said:


> I followed the ad above and ended up at the myspace page of your old band. On the pics page, theres a shot of the band, with some of them wearing cowboy hats. Someone had commented with a Brokeback Mountain crack - I couldn't help but laugh. I'm such a child ! kjdr


LOL. I didn't see that. I'll have to look. Thankfully I am one with out the cowboy hat. I just could never bond with hats of any kind and only wear golf hats on the course strictly to keep the sun out of my eyes. Even those look funny on me.


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## Slidewinder (Apr 7, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Yes I have a feeling my replacement is a joke. This was the what was on my msn when I got home last night:
> 
> "Hey Terry We found a replacement and we don't need you to play the gigs in May. Our new guitar player needs the gigs to buy a guitar and amp. Hope you don't mind".
> 
> So the guy didn't even own equipment. Hmmm. Nice of him to give me a days notice that I wasn't playing when I gave him 3 weeks.



Yup, that's the way I hear it. All the greats, SRV, Hendrix, Clapton, Vai,, Van Halen etc.. all landed their gigs and then decided it was time to see if they could find a guitar and amp.
Why, when Vai auditioned for Frank Zappa from what I understand he borrowed his uncle's plastic "guitar hero" guitar. But then Frank gave him the gig and Steve ran down to Guitar Center to buy his instrument and the rest is history. sdsre

Believe me, this singer is cutting off his own nose to spite his face and it's gonna come back to bite him on the ass, hard.
You're better off chalking it up to experience and moving on to the next band.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Paul said:


> Nice that you found a new band so quick. Mebbe I should learn some county pickin' and find some work.


Although I come from the Albert Lee/Ray Flak school of country licks there isn't much need to know them in todays country. Your good ole blues and classic rock licks will fit in fine. I'm considering 3 different bands at this time. Seems to be lots of work out there for a country guitar picker.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Paul said:


> Any that pays?????:smile:


Well I have to admit the money isn't as good as it once was but in my newer endeavors I'm glad to report I won't have to pay to play and I'll have money left over after paying my gas to get home.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

This thread should be mandatory reading for all the forum members that are anxious to get into a band for the first time. 

I doubt that they have any imagination as to what does (or can) happen....all this in addition to lugging gear, driving, long hours, fast food (or worse), etc, etc.

I totally admire all of you that able to manage to continue doing gigs and I thank you for your motivation to be entertainers and musicians so that we can all enjoy live music.

Dave


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