# Brazilian Rosewood for fret boards



## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

Hello everyone. I would like to get some perspective from the members of this forum on Brazilian Rosewood for fret boards. I have generally steered clear of them for a couple of reasons. One being what seems to be the ridiculous price. The other being CITES. I have recently cut a bunch of fret boards for a friend and may have the ability to purchase some domestic wood. The price is still what I would consider ridiculous in comparison to other rosewoods but a good deal considering current pricing of Brazilian. Also I would like to gauge the interest from people within Canada which would negate any CITES paperwork hassles.

Any thoughts on this subject are welcome. Thank you.

Here is a pic of 4 fret boards I machined on my CNC machine. These are "rule of 18" scale length and 59 Les Paul Standard specs.









Regards Peter.


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## reckless toboggan (Mar 9, 2019)

Not sure about any of the other stuff but the ones on either end, with all the character, are both absolutely gorgeous.


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

The photos do not do them justice. They are a deep chocolate brown with such a sweet smell. 

Regards Peter.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

If you can, you should. IMO.


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

I guess the question is - Do you think there is enough demand inside of Canada? I have spent a lot of time on MyLesPaul forum and there is a lot of traffic on there and a lot of people are interested in purchasing. The problem would be if I buy this wood I would not be able to ship it internationally without CITES paperwork. A quick eBay search results in multiple hits on fret board sized blanks of Braz for around US$100 - US$125 each.

Cheers Peter.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Yes.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

There are several builders in Canada who's guitars would warrant the use of and cost of Brazilian rosewood. But how much would that limit their market? Could they still sell guitars with BRW to Americans, Europeans, etc?
It is beautiful wood, no question.

The whole CITES thing has sort of relaxed lately, right? As far as finished instruments go anyway....


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

Lincoln said:


> There are several builders in Canada who's guitars would warrant the use of and cost of Brazilian rosewood. But how much would that limit their market? Could they still sell guitars with BRW to Americans, Europeans, etc?
> It is beautiful wood, no question.
> 
> The whole CITES thing has sort of relaxed lately, right? As far as finished instruments go anyway....


I believe it has relaxed as far as old instruments and also Appendix II stuff. New instruments / fret boards would still need all the correct paper work. I just sent an EI rosewood fret board to the States and it was held up in customs. All rosewood was moved to Appendix II along with S.A. Mahogany which, I believe, needs paperwork. I did not have any and it was held up for 3 days. I think all raw wood products are being held to be checked by someone who knows wood. I also sent a black walnut body blank at the same time and it was also held up for the same number of days. It could also be something to do with the new trade deal. Who really knows?

Most of the stuff I do goes to the States but I have recently joined this forum so I was wondering whether it would be worth stocking some Braz boards to sell within Canada. I guess I would just have to make up some ads and post on all the usual sites to see if I would get enough interest from Canadian customers. I thought I could take a temperature from this thread to see whether anyone here would be interested in a Canadian supplier. The CITES stuff is tricky. I have a friend that regularly deals with it, so maybe it wouldn't be that bad to get the paper work and open up the US market but I'd rather not go that route if there was enough demand domestically.

Cheers Peter.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Why don't you put prices on the 4 fretboard that are posted. That's the bottom line. You may get more suggestions from GC members that way.

By the way, they look fantastic. If I was going to try to build a guitar. Having not to deal with a fretboard would sure make it easier.


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## AlBDarned (Jun 29, 2017)

A lot of people down south won't ship certain woods to Canada, so nice to have an option here. I'll bet you have zero problem moving Braz here, so long as word gets out. Don't know if you're familiar with the official luthier's forum, but advertising there would probably get you some action. Not sure if you'd have to join as a dealer, or just a premium member to buy/sell/trade (same deal as here more or less).

If you could offer acoustic bridge blanks & pegboard veneer to go with the boards, the acoustic guys would be all over it. Many would probably want blank neck boards, but you could offer the CNC version(s) as an upcharge.

Good luck!


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

AlBDarned said:


> A lot of people down south won't ship certain woods to Canada, so nice to have an option here. I'll bet you have zero problem moving Braz here, so long as word gets out. Don't know if you're familiar with the official luthier's forum, but advertising there would probably get you some action. Not sure if you'd have to join as a dealer, or just a premium member to buy/sell/trade (same deal as here more or less).
> 
> If you could offer acoustic bridge blanks & pegboard veneer to go with the boards, the acoustic guys would be all over it. Many would probably want blank neck boards, but you could offer the CNC version(s) as an upcharge.
> 
> Good luck!



I am not familiar with that forum. Thanks for the tips. I have not associated with any Canadian sites, other than this one. I know how pricey Braz is in the states and how challenging it is to go either way across the border. Thanks again and I will look into it.

Regards Peter.


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## Yamariv (Jan 15, 2018)

Silvertone said:


> I believe it has relaxed as far as old instruments and also Appendix II stuff. New instruments / fret boards would still need all the correct paper work. I just sent an EI rosewood fret board to the States and it was held up in customs. All rosewood was moved to Appendix II along with S.A. Mahogany which, I believe, needs paperwork. I did not have any and it was held up for 3 days. I think all raw wood products are being held to be checked by someone who knows wood. I also sent a black walnut body blank at the same time and it was also held up for the same number of days. It could also be something to do with the new trade deal. Who really knows?
> 
> Most of the stuff I do goes to the States but I have recently joined this forum so I was wondering whether it would be worth stocking some Braz boards to sell within Canada. I guess I would just have to make up some ads and post on all the usual sites to see if I would get enough interest from Canadian customers. I thought I could take a temperature from this thread to see whether anyone here would be interested in a Canadian supplier. The CITES stuff is tricky. I have a friend that regularly deals with it, so maybe it wouldn't be that bad to get the paper work and open up the US market but I'd rather not go that route if there was enough demand domestically.
> 
> ...


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

They relaxed the requirement for you to have permits and the ability to confiscate Brazilian rosewood on traveling with musical instruments recently. You just need the receipt of purchase showing it is a manufactured item. I'm not sure if that means selling them as well, but IMO this should be the case for name brand manufactured items. 

I am quite aware of Braz being controlled. I did mention CITES afterall?? It is appendix I, just as ivory and many other items. Frankly if they want to stop the illegal harvesting and poaching of these items they should ban the sale of it outright. They tried that with Ivory and it effectively stopped the poaching of Elephants. Unfortunately politics came into play and they allowed it to be sold from managed countries only, which again opened the flood gates to poaching.

Regards Peter.


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## Yamariv (Jan 15, 2018)

Silvertone said:


> They relaxed the requirement for you to have permits and the ability to confiscate Brazilian rosewood on traveling with musical instruments recently. You just need the receipt of purchase showing it is a manufactured item. I'm not sure if that means selling them as well, but IMO this should be the case for name brand manufactured items.
> 
> I am quite aware of Braz being controlled. I did mention CITES afterall?? It is appendix I, just as ivory and many other items. Frankly if they want to stop the illegal harvesting and poaching of these items they should ban the sale of it outright. They tried that with Ivory and it effectively stopped the poaching of Elephants. Unfortunately politics came into play and they allowed it to be sold from managed countries only, which again opened the flood gates to poaching.
> 
> Regards Peter.


Yes you did mention Cites but I haven't heard about anything being relaxed with Braz Rosewood.. I did hear that they are "looking at" relaxing all other rosewoods but as far as I know Braz is in a completely different set of rules and you need both permits to sell. 

Anyway, those boards look great!


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

All other rosewoods are on Appendix II, which is drastically different than Appendix I. I think they did that because the people at customs and border services cannot tell the difference between the rosewoods, so better check them all. Interesting that you need an export permit. Are you sure about that? No one checks things exiting a country, only coming in. It's the same as every land crossing. There is no Canada Border services agents watching people leaving. I had a long conversation with a Fed-Ex person one time who said you could send it without any permits. Clearly they do not know what they are talking about. 

Regards Peter.


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## Yamariv (Jan 15, 2018)

Silvertone said:


> All other rosewoods are on Appendix II, which is drastically different than Appendix I. I think they did that because the people at customs and border services cannot tell the difference between the rosewoods, so better check them all. Interesting that you need an export permit. Are you sure about that? No one checks things exiting a country, only coming in. It's the same as every land crossing. There is no Canada Border services agents watching people leaving. I had a long conversation with a Fed-Ex person one time who said you could send it without any permits. Clearly they do not know what they are talking about.
> 
> Regards Peter.


Ahh yes, never trust the Shipping Companies to give advice on Cites that's for sure. I've called asking for advice on duties and advance fees importing things into Canada and each person I spoke to was lost/giving me different info that was not correct..this was not just one shipper either.. Lol

Anyway, as for Cites yes I am sure for Brazilian Rosewood you need both an Import and Export permit to do it legally, Brazilian is the only one who needs both as it's on a different schedule. I personally spoke to the Canadian Cities lady, there's only one who does it in Canada and she's in Gatineau. (I can PM you her # if you'd like) She explained to me in great detail what is required and how to proceed with Brazilian Rosewood guitars legally. At the time I was looking at bringing in a Vintage Les Paul Junior from the US but in the end the seller backed out because he didn't want to apply to the US Gov and wait 2-3 months before they can ship. I got lucky and found my dream Junior here in Canada just by fluke and couldn't be happier. 

About a year ago, I created a thread on the forum explaining all that's required for Braz vs other rosewoods and the differences when shipping vs driving across the border. Check it out if you'd like.


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

Yes - I remember looking into contacting them. I left some messages and e-mails and never heard back. I know someone who does it all the time and figured I'd have a discussion with him about it, if I actually wanted to start doing that. I really don't, but if I guy a bunch and I can't sell it in Canada I would have to look into that. That is the reason for this thread. Ideally I would want to sell it all in Canada. Thanks for the info.

Cheers Peter.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

Perhaps a conversation with Twelfth Fret or Folkway Music (both ship to/from US and beyond) would get you an answer on the current CITES regs.

They also have a very good relationship with builders on both sides of the border and can likely give you a sense of demand for Braz.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Are you selling complete guitars or finished fretboards?
Would you offer precut but finished LP59 boards in other woods?


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

tomee2 said:


> Are you selling complete guitars or finished fretboards?
> Would you offer precut but finished LP59 boards in other woods?


Inside of Canada I can do anything! ;-) Yes I have done a lot of different scale length boards and a lot of LP 59 spec'd parts and pieces. I actually worked on Tom Bartlett's '59 plans, as well as his '54 JR plans. I sell metal head stock templates based on a '59 and many other templates on those specs.

I do not sell replicas but have done quite a few full guitars as well as custom bodies and necks.

Here is one I did for a guy in the states that was a take on the prototype of the Explorer. It's a 57 Futura build with customer supplied wood. Black Limba one piece body, Honduran Mahogany one piece neck, and a flat sawn Brazilian Rosewood fret board.









I also just finished a Firebird based on the vintage Firebird V using Black Limba, White Limba, and Walnut neck through with a Ziricote fretboard.









It's a hobby for me but I could see myself semi-retiring into making a few or more a year for fun.

Cheers Peter.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Wow, those look fantastic! Of course if you build quality like that with Brazillian rosewood I'm sure you'd find buyers for them in Canada.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

Absolutely beautiful looking .... pieces of art .

CITES is located in Gatineau , Quebec ... Jean Masse Bldg at 351 St Joseph Blvd .. used to be on 17th floor ...
you can ship anywhere in Canada without permits .
you cannot ship / move Braz Rosewood outside of Canada without the specific "permit" ( even personally carrying without intent to sell ) subject to seizure and destruction if proper paperwork is not produced within 30 days ( good luck with that )
Importing/ bringing back into Canada is the same. ( Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species regulations apply both ways )

many hoops to jump through and it still may be seized by them if you can't produce the proper paperwork showing it was imported into Canada correctly.

My 49 KAY guitar would be subject to seizure / destruction if I tried to cross into the US with it, or bring it back after a visiting friends.


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

oldjoat said:


> My 49 KAY guitar would be subject to seizure / destruction if I tried to cross into the US with it, or bring it back after a visiting friends.


This is supposedly what they have relaxed recently. The seizure / destruction is "the letter" of the law. I can't believe they would actually seize it and definitely not destroy it. If you take it with you, you have to bring it back when you come. I'm not sure how they check up on this. As I have said before generally the customs officials are only responsible for what is coming into the country. I have brought guitars numerous times back and forth across the border. No one has ever checked or asked what they were. 

Regards Peter.


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

ronmac said:


> Perhaps a conversation with Twelfth Fret or Folkway Music (both ship to/from US and beyond) would get you an answer on the current CITES regs.
> 
> They also have a very good relationship with builders on both sides of the border and can likely give you a sense of demand for Braz.


I just saw this now. I pretty much know the answer to the CITES regs. I need paper work and it's pretty difficult to get for something that has been in this country pre-CITES. Affidavits and legal fees etc etc. I would like to avoid that. I'm still not convinced there is a market in Canada but I guess if I bought a bunch the price is never going to go down, so I could look at it more as a longer term investment. Thanks for all the comments. 

Cheers Peter.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

read the CITES application paperwork ... *YOU are responsible to notify THEM "at the border" before trying to leave Canada and coming back * ... paper work ahead of any trip. If either border says " hold on a minute" , you've lost it for good. (40 days to process the paperwork from CITES and it gets destroyed after only 30 ) .... "so you transported restricted items without proper paper work and now you want us to ....?"

permit application: 
section 3 ... where was it harvested and when was it imported , as accurately as possible ..... they search for correct paperwork , not good enough info and then section 4 comes into play 
section 4 ... "where is the wood presently located ?" so they can seize it if they want to

sell in Canada only ...

unless you can trace the wood back to the original country with the export documentation and that it was imported into Canada with all the proper paperwork. ( and who ever thought of that pre-CITES ) maybe carbon dating the wood , still $$$$ and no absolute guarantee they will accept it. 

then comes the fines , court dates and convictions.

sorry to be so negative , but I'll give you 3 guesses where I used to work .... cough cough .


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

oldjoat said:


> read the CITES application paperwork ... *YOU are responsible to notify THEM "at the border" before trying to leave Canada and coming back * ... paper work ahead of any trip. If either border says " hold on a minute" , you've lost it for good. (40 days to process the paperwork from CITES and it gets destroyed after only 30 ) .... "so you transported restricted items without proper paper work and now you want us to ....?"
> 
> permit application:
> section 3 ... where was it harvested and when was it imported , as accurately as possible ..... they search for correct paperwork , not good enough info and then section 4 comes into play
> ...



This is the whole reason to try and figure out whether there is enough demand for boards within Canada. I think there is but I guess it would depend on price point. Raw boards the correct size in the USA seem to be around US$200. Now that seems a little extreme. Is there any concensus on what raw blanks are worth vs routed for fret slots, size, and inlays, or even with cellulose nitrate inlays, frets, and the correct binding with nibs for that matter? I do have the ability to do from one extreme to the next. Not sure whether I would go fully completed boards though. Seems like a lot of work but if the $$$ are there.

Cheers Peter.


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

Second batch done - 










These ones look darker but it must be the lighting. They are a deep chocolate brown with some nice figure in the two on the right.

Cheers Peter.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

just as beautiful as the first batch!

sorry , I just tripped over my tongue while drooling.


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

oldjoat said:


> just as beautiful as the first batch!


Yeah it's the same board. The board was 5"x75"x3/4" and should yield 16 fret boards. I cut it in quarters which worked out to about 18 1/2" long.

Then I cut it to basic shape.


















I figured I'd do this first so as to minimize wood lost in jointing and it's easier to resaw a shorter piece. Then I jointed both sides, which was only one pass.









I jointed both sides because I do not care whether the faces are parallel because I will be re-sawing it down the middle and the jointed faces will be the neck side, unless I have thickness to joint the other side depending on if it has nicer grain. Two faces jointed and ready to re-saw.









I'll cut down the middle to maximize width. They are just under 3/4" so shouldn't have a problem with thickness.









Set up the band saw and clamp my fence,s o it doesn't move.









It's nice when re-sawing such short material. Re-sawed both pieces. Looks cool bookmatched.









Cheers Peter.


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

The thickness looks good. They were all just over 0.325" thick.









Thickness sanded them down to about 0.26" or so. The CNC machine will machine them to the exact thickness.









On to the CNC machine - extremely sped up video. CLICK HERE

Cheers Peter.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

book matched = internal stresses cancel each other 

and as i said before .... beautiful !


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

I'm doing another 8 boards out of the other end of that plank. These are as nice or nicer. Unfortunately I am just machining these and they will not be for sale. 









They are all rough cut and thicknessed and ready for the CNC machine.

Cheers Peter.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

All this fussing about CITES makes me real glad I prefer maple fretboards


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

CITES makes no difference for these or any rosewood boards that are not going across international borders. I also find it hard to believe that the border enforces the strict regulations around brazilian on production finished guitars. I'd rather use alternate woods as well but not maple as I do not like finishing a fret board. I have been using Ziricote recently and I really like it.

Regards Peter.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

Silvertone said:


> that are not going across international borders


 true until .... 
a customer of yours tries to cross the border with one of your "special fret boards" installed or not ... 
Knock , knock , knock ... hello sir , we're from C and have reason to believe you are in possession of " insert restricted species here" do you have supporting proper import documentation? 

the long arm of stupidity and silly servants know no limits .... it's a crap shoot , you may get a sympathetic and reasonable seasoned official .... or a complete ego tripping bureaucrat.


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

oldjoat said:


> true until ....
> a customer of yours tries to cross the border with one of your "special fret boards" installed or not ...
> Knock , knock , knock ... hello sir , we're from C and have reason to believe you are in possession of " insert restricted species here" do you have supporting proper import documentation?
> 
> the long arm of stupidity and silly servants know no limits .... it's a crap shoot , you may get a sympathetic and reasonable seasoned official .... or a complete ego tripping bureaucrat.


It's not my board at that point, it's their's. I have no legal obligation to provide paperwork if I sell this domestically. I do not need CITES paperwork as the "I" stands for International and I sold it in Canada. I have not heard of anyone suggesting there are local / domestic rules regarding the sale of brazilian rosewood? Maybe you know something I do not?

Regards Peter.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

it wasn't International until the new customer tried to cross a Border outside of Canada with it ... first question is does he have proper paperwork for the endangered species used in the production of his unit. next question to him is "where did you buy it" ... traces back to you (source) ... now do you have the proper import paperwork for Canada?

it then becomes a crap shoot . you've done nothing wrong ... but you may get tied up for years in the system for things beyond your control.

or look at it this way , you build "custom amps" but don't get them CSA certified . Someone gets electrocuted or a nasty shock (faulty other gear but yours is not CSA approved) you get nailed and fined for selling non CSA certified equipment. 

electrical code states "no one shall use any non certified equipment" .....
which means you should not plug in that amp you just built for yourself.


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

I'm not sure why this is turning into a CITES hand slapping session? I do not need paperwork for Brazilian rosewood domestically. The same as I can go to the wood store right now and buy IER for $15 a board even though it is listed on CITES. The store that brought it into the country did need the paperwork "importing" it. They do not and will not provide paperwork to me purchasing it

The amp example is not remotely close to this situation. There is a legal obligation to wire with CSA standards and the builder did not do that, therefore, he should be on the hook. I do not know the particulars of this but just speaking to your example. There is no legal obligation for me to supply any documentation or have any documentation to possess. A better example may be if I build a "custom amp" and the purchaser hits someone over the head with it and kills them. Is that my fault? It is up to the individual who owns the object to not do something illegal with it. How can I be responsible for what someone does with the object I sell?

I just wanted to know if there was demand for selling domestically. If there is not or there are too many hassles I would not even consider it. It's starting to become a hassle just talking about something I am not even interesting in doing. ;-)

Regards Peter.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

sorry if it seemed to be lecture ( not intended that way )GF^%@

the chain of possession traces back to you .... just as "IER for $15 a board" traces back to the wood store (your receipt) and proper paperwork.
if you build something with it and sell it , you are in that chain ... you don't have to supply any Cites documentation to the customer (sold within Canada).. but you may be questioned later for where you got it from ... and so traced on up the ladder to point of import. keep that receipt (or copy of it)

regulations are written to nab the big players and fine them heavily ... unfortunately it tramples all over the small guy, without exceptions.

now that this is put to bed , let us continue to marvel at the beauty of the wood and the artistry / skill involved in the masterpieces.


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

oldjoat said:


> sorry if it seemed to be lecture ( not intended that way )GF^%@
> 
> the chain of possession traces back to you .... just as "IER for $15 a board" traces back to the wood store (your receipt) and proper paperwork.
> if you build something with it and sell it , you are in that chain ... you don't have to supply any Cites documentation to the customer (sold within Canada).. but you may be questioned later for where you got it from ... and so traced on up the ladder to point of import. keep that receipt (or copy of it)
> ...



No problem. I think having more information is better than having less. Definitely food for thought. It seems to be so complicated and problematic that most people would want to stay away from it. This could be an opportunity for someone willing to do the homework and figure out the correct and legal way to deal with this.

Regards Peter.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

I guess who ever you sell guitars to you tell them not to leave Canada with it?


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I think you'll get hit by lightning before a CBSA agent bugs you about a piece of rosewood you sold


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## Silvertone (Oct 13, 2018)

Agreed but I know a friend who was visited by Fish and Wildlife. The had guns! ;-) Better to be safe than sorry. If I sell any I will create a note on the invoice. Thanks for the advice oldjoat, and others.

Cheers Peter.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

knight_yyz said:


> I think you'll get hit by lightning before a CBSA agent bugs you about a piece of rosewood you sold


Vintage guitar show Germany canceled due CITES regulation

It's not leaving Canada that you should worry about, it's where it's going to. Then you have to bring it back.
Brazilian has been restricted for a very long time now (1992?).
Why not make an ivory nut too? Like they don't confiscate ivory because it's not very big and you've only got one little piece of it on your guitar. 
Should be no problem.

Tusks, bear bile and stuffed beasts: Inside Heathrow's morbid 'Dead Shed'


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