# Titebond III glue revisited - some testing



## ajcoholic

This is just a note to explain the results of a test i performed, in my shop, with Titebond III wood glue. Some of you might be using, or have questioned the use of this adhesive in electric guitar construction.

What I did was take two pieces of hard maple, both 3/4" thick, and 2 1/4" wide. I lapped them 2 3/4" and glued them together ( roughly the size of a fender style neck pocket or slightly smaller).

After only one hour clamp time, and 12 hours total dry time at 63 degrees F, i put the blocks in a clamp with >2000 pounds pressure, which was acting on a completely shear force on the glue joint. Something so excessive, a guitar neck would never see this sort of force.

I also scribed on each side of the joint reference marks, with a sharp knife to aid in visually seeing what if any creeping would occur.

Each day when i went to work, i would check the tightness of the clamp and check the joint. Here was so much force on it, the relatively short pieces of maple were noticeably bent. Again, there was near a ton of shear force on this just over 6 square inches of joint area.

After nearly two months of being continually in the clamp, no noticeable movement was shown to occur, and with the knife marks, even a movement as little as a thousandth of an inch wold have been noticed.

Right now the blocks are submersed in water, i am doing some of my own strength testing while wet, but this of course has nothing to do with guitar construction. 

I plan to further test various samples of this glue in my shop, as my business is built on strong glue joins, literally, but i am confident it is as good or better than any other commonly used woodworking adhesive, in terms of holding together electric guitars. Definitely as good as he other several industrial brands of aliphatics and pva's i have used in past years.

(If i ever find evidence to show otherwise, i will of course report here to let you guys know. Good or bad, i always tell the truth.)


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## Traivs

It's so great that you are sharing the results of your test here. Not everybody can do tests like this on their own. Thank you!

Titebond is my glue of choice for guitar building, but I keep hearing that hide glue is somehow acoustically superior for musical instruments. This may be off topic, but how would you compare hide glue with titebond? What is the difference structurally, and is there really any difference in the sound?


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## House Guitars

Maybe I can chime in here as I use both hot hide glue, titebond and pretty much every other type of glue in my guitar building. Hide glue dries harder than titebond and also has the advantage of a lower solids content then many other types of wood glue on the market. The harder the glue the better it transmits vibration, also the higher the solids content the more vibration will be dampened. It also has the advantage of being reversible with heat and water. This is really important for joints that may need to come apart in for repair (bridges and fretboard extensions on acoustics, violins, etc.) Titebond 1 can be disassembled with heat and water, but the glue cannot be reactivated the way hide glue can and the joints don't come apart as cleanly. Another thing to keep in mind is that Titebond 2 and 3 are both heat resistant. So you never want to use them on a joint that you may want to take apart in the future. Hide glue has its down sides in that it is fiddly. You have to mix the right consistency, keep it at the right temperature, and clamp it quickly. If not handled properly the glue joint will fail. 

The big question that is always asked is can you hear the difference. On electric instruments probably not. I think you can on acoustics, only the difference is very subtle. I built my first 50+ guitars with titbond or similar glues and did notice some subtle tonal changes when I switched to hide. It is hard to describe, maybe a little crisper and clearer? In my view every little bit helps.

A really good alternative to hot hide glue is fish glue. It is an animal protein glue similar to hide, but it comes in liquid form and does not need to be heated. It has all the advantages of hide (dries hard, reversible, etc), but without the hassle of having to worry about mixing it and keeping it at the proper temperature. The only downside I've found is that it has a slow dry time of 8-12 hours. It is available from Lee Valley. 

I use hot hide on most of my braces and then substitute fish glue for the parts where more working time is helpful (glueing on top and backs for example). There are still certain parts of the guitar where I will use titebond, epoxy or CA, but only a handful of places. Another advantage to hide and fish glue is that they scrape and sand nicely for cleanup. I really like fish glue for binding on my acoustics. 

Josh


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## ajcoholic

Yes i am speaking strictly for electric guitar use. I understand in acoustic instruments, some might want to dissassemble at some point, something.

Just to add a funny point, a few years ago, someone was arguing with me that you uld not succesfully glue in a bolt on neck, and ave it strong enough. I dd a similar test, but instead, mblcked up the test boards, and drive my full ksize Ford Expedition truck onto it. The joint flexed like a banana, then in a few moments after i jumped out and was looking at it, the wood failed with the glue joint intact. I knw this is not a creep test but ne of ultimate strength of wood vs glue joint. Typically in a well prepared glue joint the glue always wins!

AJC


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## Lab123

Great thread guys..This is the part of the forum that I enjoy most...The sharing of good information...The first guitar I built I used ordinary Carpenters Glue..Had no problems with it...Everything stayed together....I now use Tightbond original and LMI Instrument glue...Starting to lean a little more towards LMI glue and really looking at using Hide glue in the future..I believe I read in another forum that a lot of guitars builder won't use Tightbonds II an III...The reason used was that it was too water based...( I could be wrong here)...Larry


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## YJMUJRSRV

gone fishing


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## House Guitars

Larry,

There is a view among some builders that using a water-based glue is not a good idea for certain parts of the instrument as it introduces water into the joint. Most often when I hear people reference this view they give the example of glueing the fretboard to the neck blank, and say it can cause the neck to warp or something like that. I think this type of argument may be what you have heard. In theory it makes sense that you don't want to introduce water into a joint, but in practice I never had an issue with anything warping as a result of water-based glues. If I remember right Titebond II was made to be heat resistant and as mentioned in the above post III was made to be heat and water resistant. The only place I use Titebond 3 is when gluing purfling strips to binding before the wooden binding is bent. That joint gets exposed to heat and moisture when being bent and regular Titebond will let go. Because II and III can't be disassembled easily I think they should be avoided anywhere there is the slightest possibility you may need to repair the joint. There isn't really any advantage to them for instrument making other then a handful of places like gluing purfling to binding. The characteristics of fish glue and hide glue make them ideal choices for instrument making, and especially for acoustic instrument. .


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## ajcoholic

So, i am at as i write this, down in Las Vegas at the AWFS woodworking show, the largest woodworking trade show in North America. Pretty damn impressive, i came specifically to look at some cnc machines i plan to purchase in the future.However, i stopped and had a chat with the fellows at the Titebond booth. I wanted to hear from the horses mouth what the "non structural uses" meant.Of couse, this is what he told me... Titebond III is completely fine to use on anything except construction type applications, ie, finger jointing construction lumber or similar, where the adhesive would be called upon to withstand immense loads.They said, it is and has been completely suitable for ANY furniture, cabinet or similar wood working use, as well as that which is exposed to high loads such as staircases and similar. Just no for building type structures.He laughed when i talked about the misinformation present on many web forums, about the use of the glue.This of course falls in line with my personal experiences. Which also would suggest without any doubt, that the glue is absolutely fine for solid body guitar construction. AJC


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## Hypno Toad

Just my two cents (mostly anecdotal)

Ive used titebond III'd on all of my fretboards, and have had no warping issues, separation, or anything of that sort. It binds strong, and it doesn't make it too hard to remove the fretboard if need be. I treat my guitars like workhorses, store them in subpar conditions and they haven't payed me back in kind so I wouldn't have any reason to doubt titebond.


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## Jimmy_D

Interesting, but I don’t think warping or delaminating is the issue with titebond 3, the issue is cold creep.

I’ve seen it with titebond and in the industry I’d say it’s generally accepted, that of all the white glues, titebond moves the most.

Not to long ago I raised this with a colleague, asking what his experience was with titebond 3.

He mentioned that they had just finished a cherry solids/veneer reception desk/cabs and wall paneling, including a giant (vac formed on mdf) cornice.

So I asked “what do you think” and his immediate answer was “well, you know it creeps, right”. 

While you can glue up a guitar body from well seasoned wood using titebond 3 and never ever have a problem, you cannot do a job where 30K worth of lumber and veneer gets glued up without evidence of cold creep, this has been my experience.


While I did read your test results, and hear what the titebond sales guys have to say, at the end of the day (given that all white glue is elastic to some extent) titebond 3 would not be my first choice, for any work.


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## Guitar101

Jimmy_D said:


> Interesting, but I don’t think warping or delaminating is the issue with titebond 3, the issue is cold creep.


I've been following this thread with interest for awhile now and I've done my share of gluing furniture over the years but I have never heard the term "cold creep". I have, however, heard the term used on this thread.

Please explain what "cold creep" means.
*
Update:Thanks for the explanation. *(reply #12)


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## Jimmy_D

It could be described as movement in or across the glue line, _without_ any obvious outside forces like excess weight, heat or moisture, hence (I guess) the "cold" part.

On a guitar body it could show up between lamination's or between the finger board and neck, or on the back of a 3 or 5 piece neck.

Say you make some panels, plywood core veneered both sides, solid wood edges applied, you sand it all perfectly flush, stain/finish and install.

A couple of months later you find that the edging is no longer flush (not everywhere but in enough places to be a problem) and where it's not flush the finish has cracked at the seam between the solid and the veneer.

What's happening here is that the adhesive cannot restrain the natural material movement, when some adhesives would have, because it's too elastic. What I'm saying is that there are better white glues to use for guitars, that's all.


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## YJMUJRSRV

gone fishing


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## Hypno Toad

Jimmy_D said:


> Interesting, but I don’t think warping or delaminating is the issue with titebond 3, the issue is cold creep.


Regardless of whether these inconspicuous and extremely anecdotal rumors and murmurs are true, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anybody with concrete evidence of it. IE: a real issue with the glue, as apposed to an issue that *could* have been caused by themselves and then conveniently blamed on the glue.

With that in mind, I think Titebond III is more than good enough to suit the application of guitar making. You could probably find a better glue, but not better to the point where it has any discernible impact on the stability or quality of the guitar, so it's liable not to matter at all, unless you plan on storing your guitar in _extremely_ sub-par conditions.

All this sounds like grasping at straws to me. If the glue does its job perfectly, then trying to find something better is really just over-constructing.


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## Jimmy_D

Hypno Toad said:


> Regardless of whether these inconspicuous and extremely anecdotal rumors and murmurs are true, I think you'd be hard pressed to find anybody with concrete evidence of it. IE: a real issue with the glue, as apposed to an issue that *could* have been caused by themselves and then conveniently blamed on the glue.
> 
> With that in mind, I think Titebond III is more than good enough to suit the application of guitar making. You could probably find a better glue, but not better to the point where it has any discernible impact on the stability or quality of the guitar, so it's liable not to matter at all, unless you plan on storing your guitar in _extremely_ sub-par conditions.
> 
> All this sounds like grasping at straws to me. If the glue does its job perfectly, then trying to find something better is really just over-constructing.


 

That’s grasping at straws alright. It’s pretty simple and I already have more experience under my belt than most of you could achieve if you worked every day in the business, for the rest of your life. 


So, if you want to grasp at straws go right ahead, ignore the simple explanations and eventually you’ll pay the price for using the wrong adhesive… defending the indefensible is rather pointless. 

When I used titebond 3 and found it was inappropriate, I said to myself, "I made a mistake and used the wrong glue", simple. But it seems some people, for whatever reason, don’t want to consider they made a mistake, fine with me, and I suppose fine with you also.


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## ajcoholic

Jimmyd,I dont know your first hand experienoces in woodworking, so, i cannot ( and will not ) let one person's experiences stand as the ultimate deciding factor.Just as, mine is again just one opinion, however based on my own empirical evidence and experiences.For your friend, well, for large veneering jobs there are specific glues for that type of construction. Using any pva or aliphatic can cause issues. Not my opinion, but pretty common industry accepted practice.As for this whole cold creep issue.... I still find it very agrivating that some of you are determined to suggest that TIII will somehow let wood move, while other glues will not. That is absurd. I might run a small cabinet and custom furniture shop, but i have used dozens of glues on the market that are looked at as the "best" in the wood industry, and really have not had any issues with any of them, which isnt surprising as theyare all in competition with each other. However i do like t he way some behave much better in other aspects, which is why i really like TIII.I have never had any issue with it, and untill i do i will certainly use it on my own $30K jobs ( i make kitchens that expensive, which have many laminations in doors, framing, trim etc which to what some suggest will all show signs of movement, which of course is laughable)I have said what i needed to say. If anyine thinks using TI or II, Lepage, etc instead will somehow hold wood from exhibiting natural movement, then all i can is good luck with that.I prefer discussing my own experiences first hand, based ONLY on what I have experienced. i dont give second hand or similar much credit. And, based on that, a few of you who have bashed TIII i really think you have never actually used the adhesive for yourself.AJC


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## ajcoholic

Sorry for the huge paragraph, writing this on my ipad down in vegas and it didnt put in the spaces... AJC ps, you guys win, my 40,000 hours ini the woodworking industry doesnt compare to your building guitars experieince. I guess i am full of it. Whatever, you be the internet experts based on ? I still dont know.


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## Jimmy_D

Sorry but I'm not bashing anything or anyone, if you read my posts I said;

"While you can glue up a guitar body from well seasoned wood using titebond 3 and never ever have a problem - titebond 3 would not be my first choice"

"What I'm saying is that there are better white glues to use for guitars, that's all. "

BTW I've personally used mountains of titebond, there's 5 gal. pails of it all over the shop, so you guys can take the rabid defense a little easier and possibly consider the info might not be "rumor".

On the topic of adhesives holding materials - you should get over it, white glue lines are elastic to some degree, that's a fact, and outside conditions can affect that elastic quality.

So, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to suppose that different brands of white glue (therefore different formulations) *might* have different properties!!!

At the end of the day I should have just read on and shut up, but sometimes I just can't read what I know is patently wrong and shut up at the same time, sorry.


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## Jimmy_D

ajcoholic said:


> Sorry for the huge paragraph, writing this on my ipad down in vegas and it didnt put in the spaces... AJC ps, you guys win, my 40,000 hours ini the woodworking industry doesnt compare to your building guitars experieince. I guess i am full of it. Whatever, you be the internet experts based on ? I still dont know.


Missed this one, sorry but I'm no guitar builder (although I do build guitars) and I didn't know there was a "woodworking industry" in Ontario north of Toronto

I'm trained as a cabinetmaker since 1975, recently I was asked and did sit for a year on the board of directors at AWMAC Ontario,AWMAC Ontario Chapter Website so I must know something about the industry, thanks.


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## n.milburn

Liked this thread until conflict set in.

Here are some of my thoughts.

1) Yes, water based glues will be different than hide glue or alternatives because they do indeed cause wood expansion and hence need greater clamping care when gluing. You can test this by taking some thin veneer, coating it with titebond, and watching as it begins to curl.
2) Titebond 2 in my experience has a quicker tack time and is "tackier" than titebond 3, rendering certain operations easier than others. Titebond 3 is "wetter" than titebond 2. This could be beneficial for certain operations since it may be easier to get a really thin coat applied.
3) (Responding to some comments in the thread) Fingerboards (rosewood/ebony) dry out and I don't think any type of glue will change this. Many of you have likely experienced frets poking out from the edges of fingerboards of old guitars. This is due to the shrinkage of the F.B. and I'll repeat, I don't think any type of glue will change this (although I have not done controlled experiments over 75 years with different types of woods and glues to test just this theory). So I don't think a fingerboard is a good control to make exclusive determinations on the absolute quality of a type of glue.

A master instrument builder whose guitars I am familiar with uses Titebond 2 pretty much exclusively and I have seen instruments of his built decades ago and these have had no substantial movement at at. I don't know how long TB2 has been out, so his older instruments may have been made with the original Titebond.

Truth is, there is no absolute. Just as bracing patterns, top thicknesses, linings, etc are different from builder to builder, choices in glues will vary as well.

Thanks to the original poster for sharing.

- Ned.
HandCraftedGuitars.ca


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