# Less Gain = More Tone?



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...for way, way too many years, i sought to get tone from my o/d boxes.

the gain/drive knobs were always set as high as they could go before everything just turned to mush.

i was never satisfied, and it always seemed like every guitarist in the world sounded much better than me.

so, i kept trying to push the gain even higher, with even more disappointing results.

frustrated, i finally started going the other way, mostly out of curiousity.

well, hmmmm, i seem to be onto something here. now i'm actually "hearing" the tone of the guitar. and the amp.

i keep pushing the gain/drive controls on my o/d boxes lower and lower, so that i still hear the essential character of the pedal, but as an "enhancement" of the original tone of my guitar and amp.

many of you probably figured this out a long time ago, correct?

-dh


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

What's an overdrive :smile:


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

I'm a believer, less is more both from amps' preamp and from OD boxes. VOLUME i love VOLUME stuff generally sounds better (i know about the ear perception thing) as it's turned up. Fatter tone, etc.

I'm forever trying to get my kid to use less gain on our JVM410H Marshall. He plays lead in a hard rock band but doesn't cut as well as he thinks he does. He doesn't want to believe me that many of the recorded tones he hears have less gain than he thinks.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

My distortion pedal is capable of serious metal-like tones. I rarely if ever use that aspect of it, for the very reasons posted here. If you use tube amps getting the power section cooking enables one to use less gain on the pedal. but still achieve, as Keto said, a fatter tone. All the while maintaining the true tone of the guitar in question. Using stomp boxes at bedroom levels to get some crunch is cool, but they really shine when an amp is really moving some serious air.

Shawn :smile:


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## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

I too was cranking the gain just to break through for leads......but I was finding I was sounding more and more like a fuzzy mess..not breaking through at all....I was completely perplexed.......backing off the gain and turning up the volume - seems to break through great...(and ensuring the mids are up a wee bit) ..and sounds much much nicer...the sound actually sounds like a guitar

I found in my early beginner (still consider myself a beginner after 5 years at this) times that higher gain allowed for longer sustain which covered up missed notes in leads......so gain was being used as a crutch......gettin better at that now thankfully


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I play metal, and i'm called the anti-gain whore on sevenstring.org haha.

I run the gain as low as I need for saturation, boost the amp with a modded TS to get more clarity and tightness and punch, and proceed to administer metal.

i actually Upped the gain on my ultra channel - I used to run it at 2, and now i run it at 4. Mostly to make a more distinct difference between my crunch and ultra channels.

whoever mentioned the JVM and their son - record him. let him hear how he sounds by himself. Also inform him that every CD he hears will have at least 2 layers of guitar tracks - which really thickens up the sound.

www.soundclick.com/thebuddaproject - the "metal is best left to the professionals" is a shoddy recording, but that's the gain on 2 on my amp.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I think you guys are on to something.

In the same way they say the camera adds 10lbs, it always seems to me that when recording, the guitar that sounds like it has about the right gain to the naked ear, sounds too gain-y in the recording, if you know what I'm saying.
I'm also finding I battle noise a lot too.

Gain and mids IMO are too misused qualities...often too much gain and not enough mids. Maybe the human ear gets tricked too easily by these tones?


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

I think its an age thing. I've noticed in the last year I prefer less, but I've never been big on really high gain. I don't like distortion pedals but I do like overdrive pedals. Oddly enough, I just got a Mesa Roadster a few months back and I am totally digging it. It goes from clean to extreme and everything in between. 

Less can be more but more is kinda fun sometimes! :rockon2:


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

The higher the gain, the more noisy buzzs, clicks, pops, skwacks, and yes - sizzly sustain are confused with the music. The lower the gain, the more the notes, and the spaces between become the music.

Delay and reverb can also become substitutes for music.


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## Andy (Sep 23, 2007)

I'm playing with less than half the gain I was using when I first bought my Traynor. Most people think that excessive gain makes their playing sound thicker and heavier, but it destroys the attack transients and compresses the signal to the point of becoming mush. 

Same with scooping the mids. You *can* take some midrange out of the signal, but not with your guitar EQ -- you want a narrow-bandwidth EQ sucking out some at ~500Hz.


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## hoser (Feb 2, 2006)

A lot of guys who go for cranked gain are trying to get a massive, ballsy sound. cranked gain on an amp or dirt box won't get you that. It'll get you fizz and fuzz.
turn down the gain, turn up the mids, enjoy your bigger balls.


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## Coustfan'01 (Sep 27, 2006)

I think a lot of guys are using too much gain for metal/hardcore/etc , but for smooth, fast playing it's often times a big help. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that guys like tony macalpine are using quite a bit of distortion/delay for most solos. Otherwise all you hear are pick attacks... can anyone confimr/infirm that?


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## Alien8 (Jan 8, 2009)

> The higher the gain, the more noisy buzzs, clicks, pops, skwacks, and yes - sizzly sustain are confused with the music. The lower the gain, the more the notes, and the spaces between become the music.
> 
> Delay and reverb can also become substitutes for music.


Careful there, thems fightin' words to someone who can play an effect. Nuthin' like telling someone that their music is just noise understood from an uneducated perspective.

Gain is such a glorious tool... It all depends on how you make it, and EQ it. Less can be more, it all depends on what you want. You can still have high gain and tone together in a nice tightly knit ball - I've always found that the musician's who don't understand just write it off without learning, probably because it's too "aggressive" to them. My dad gets high gain now, but he didn't when I started doing it.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

keto said:


> I'm a believer, less is more both from amps' preamp and from OD boxes. VOLUME i love VOLUME stuff generally sounds better (i know about the ear perception thing) as it's turned up. Fatter tone, etc.



...that's what i'm discovering as well, keto.

-dh


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Alien8 said:


> Careful there, thems fightin' words to someone who can play an effect. Nuthin' like telling someone that their music is just noise understood from an uneducated perspective.
> 
> Gain is such a glorious tool... It all depends on how you make it, and EQ it. Less can be more, it all depends on what you want. You can still have high gain and tone together in a nice tightly knit ball - I've always found that the musician's who don't understand just write it off without learning, probably because it's too "aggressive" to them. My dad gets high gain now, but he didn't when I started doing it.


Don't misunderstand me - I have a ton of junk at my feet and use it all. I find high gain useful for percussive stuff and it can be a lot of fun (and forgiving) when I'm goofing around at home but when the bass and drums kick in you better have some ooomph behind the buzz or you're going nowhere.

The less gain, the more you will cut through. You gotta strike the balance that works.

My biggest pet peeve is "clean tones" that are lathered with chorus, delay, and reverb. It may sound pretty - but it ain't exactly clean.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

the thing about gain and the perception of it is this; in the studio, tracks are layered. some bands layer more than others, either of their own accord or due to a label rep saying something, whatever.

I have been to a few metal shows the last few months - not many bands, if any, are running tons of gain. but since the band practises to sound tight and coherent, they still sound huge and cutting. The bands who aren't as gear or tone savvy will probably drop the mids too much, and use a bit too much gain. The sooner a band discovers how to sound like a band, and not individual musicians/players playing together, the sooner they sound better. Trying to go for recorded tones isn't the greatest idea IMO - the band usually doesn't sound the exact same live anyway.

I'm always a little bit disheartened when I see bands with: great gear and only mediocre tone and great playing, or great playing on only mediocre gear with decent tone, or bad tone bad playing and sweet gear. Luckily, the first band is usually the only one to suffer hehe.

I lied, my ultra's gain is at 3.


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

Dave, I'm surprised that YOU of all people, are just fingering this out now?? You come from the same era that I come from. There were no OD's back when we started out. Yes fuzzes, but they're different, if used correctly. Big, clean amps, pusehed into distortion with volume, and balls. A good germanium fuzz can deliver a nice, phat, ballsy clean, to crushing distortion all from the vol knob. ESpecially with good single coils.
I could do without my OD's, but not my fuzzface clone!!

CT.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

There are times when a lot of gain is nice. Most of the time less is better. That's even more evident behind the board. The guys who sound best in the FOH mix ALWAYS use gain sparingly.

In spite of that it's hard not to fall into the trap of using too much.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

I find that a lot of new amps come out of the box with too much gain too early on the gain knob. I usually sub a 12at7 or 12au7 in v1 to solve that problem. Works like a charm.

matt


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i'm a dreafully slow learner.

i get a wrongheaded idea, and can't let it go.

back in the day, i got great tone from a p90-loaded sg and an ampeg half stack, and looked down my nose at pedals.

then i went from fronting my own rock/punk band to being a sideman in the original bob segarini band. we rehearsed without mics, so i had to find a way to get a cranked tone at whisper volume. that was right around the time the scholz "rockman" was introduced.

so, i ended up spending the last 20-plus years driving down a dead end street.

and, i have to say, i haven't tried playing through a fuzz pedal since 1968. i'm intrigued...

-dh



CocoTone said:


> Dave, I'm surprised that YOU of all people, are just fingering this out now?? You come from the same era that I come from. There were no OD's back when we started out. Yes fuzzes, but they're different, if used correctly. Big, clean amps, pusehed into distortion with volume, and balls. A good germanium fuzz can deliver a nice, phat, ballsy clean, to crushing distortion all from the vol knob. ESpecially with good single coils.
> I could do without my OD's, but not my fuzzface clone!!
> 
> CT.


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

http://www.mjmguitarfx.com/

This guy makes the world's best Fuzzface clone. I have had numerous origionals, and this one is the best ever. Been on my board for 8 years now, and will never leave it.

CT.


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

allthumbs56 said:


> My biggest pet peeve is "clean tones" that are lathered with chorus, delay, and reverb. It may sound pretty - but it ain't exactly clean.


Ugg... I heard this the other day. Guitarist was doing a soundcheck... just himself... clean was chorus, delay and reverb all at once as best I can tell. Giant wall of mush, and the whole band hadn't even kicked in yet.


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

It took a number of years to learn this, but these days I think of gain in terms of compression... as in, how much compression do I require to get this sorta sound. Obviously, if I'm playing heavy chugga chugga palm muted stuff I need a bit more compression and sizzle, but if I'm playing heavy riffs with little muting I can cut the gain back quite a bit and it'll really bring out the bark, particularly if I have some power amp compression to stretch things out.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Q: Less Gain = More Tone?


A: Yes

If you learn how to play with very little gain it is STUNNING how little gain you really need when you want some dirt on your tone.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

For me the issue is how to get more sustain without too much gain,


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

Robert1950 said:


> For me the issue is how to get more sustain without too much gain,


Compressor. One of the best 'overdrive' pedals I've ever used for soloing... though I'm not a fan of them for rhythm work.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> For me the issue is how to get more sustain without too much gain,


...with practice, i think you can get a lot of sustain from your fingers, which is then amplified by your guitar and amp.

-dh


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

david henman said:


> ...with practice, i think you can get a lot of sustain from your fingers, which is then amplified by your guitar and amp.
> 
> -dh


Is that like.... "Your pain is your Gain" :sport-smiley-002:


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

No, its knowing your instrument, and woodshedding. You'd be surprised how much sustain is in your left hand.(or right,,whichever is on the neck the most!)

CT.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

david henman said:


> and, i have to say, i haven't tried playing through a fuzz pedal since 1968. i'm intrigued...
> 
> -dh


hmm, maybe I have to dust off this old guy










I know what you're saying about gain pedals. I seem to go through phases where I toss everything out and try to clean up my tone, then over time start adding pedals as I think I need them. Then reach the AARRRRGGHHH point with my tone, and start all over again.


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

dwagar said:


> hmm, maybe I have to dust off this old guy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I do that too. It's a painful cycle.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Thanks guys, this question help me a lot to discover new tone! For me the gain or fuzz or drive knobs were always crancker up, since a week I try less and less and I discover many new sounds and my guitar is alive know! I've also discover the sound of Dan Auerback from the black keys! Thanks!


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## dufe32 (Feb 5, 2007)

Ti-Ron said:


> since a week I try less and less and I discover many new sounds and my guitar is alive now!


Exactly. The guitar comes alive.


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## gibsonlp04 (Apr 26, 2007)

just my 2 cents

i play out of a deluxe reverb and i find for bedroom playing (volume at 2) im inclined to kick on a little more meat from my ocd. BUT live if i can get my amp to even 5 i find i can lay off the o/d significantly and just let the amp do the talking. i guess in the crazy world of pop/rock doesnt need lots of gain though.


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## canadiangeordie (Jan 10, 2009)

this continues to be a bit of a battle for me. We play pretty extrete metal in our band, and im constantly fighting with the other guitar players' Valveking 2x12 (compared to my Randall RG100). And my amp is noisy as hell with high gain, though not as bad when using the Decimator. It just doesnt sound 'gnarly' enough...

I was considering playing through the clean channel with the aid of a Metal Muff/Landmine or something of that ilk. Or maybe i just need to grit my teeth and bear it until i can get my hands on a tube amp...


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## the_fender_guy (Jul 22, 2008)

It's a real ear opener when you lay off the Gain after overusing it.
I always had too much Gain and a tiny fizzy tone and when I got rid of the excessive Gain everything sounded better.
It's a hard lesson to learn for guitarists who are set in their ways.


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

I am smiling as I read this as I too have found a nice sound with less gain.
Some mild crunch/boost and some compression with my Tele in the middle PU position. Through my tube amp picking with my fingers....It's very very nice. The guitar sings like I have not heard before. In my youth and long after, I played lots of hard rock with distortion and gain. My Tele with a little dirt and compression is heavenly.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

gibsonlp04 said:


> just my 2 cents
> 
> i play out of a deluxe reverb and i find for bedroom playing (volume at 2) im inclined to kick on a little more meat from my ocd. BUT live if i can get my amp to even 5 i find i can lay off the o/d significantly and just let the amp do the talking. i guess in the crazy world of pop/rock doesnt need lots of gain though.


evilGuitar:

Dat's the way I roll too :rockon2:


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

The less gain, the more the tonal characteristics of the guitar as well as the amp comes through. If gain was where its at, then it would matter what the guitar was made of.

CT.


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## Samsquantch (Mar 5, 2009)

It depends on what style of music you play and your own personal touch. There's some stuff you just can't do with lower gain that you can with higher and vice versa. If someone like Steve Vai played those crazy leads with low-medium gain, it just wouldn't work...


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2009)

That's got some truth to it. But the real secret for me was...are you ready... the mids. As a kid I used to put a smile on the EQ of everything including my guitar's processor/effect/blahblah chain. I could never cut through the mix until I realized that I was putting my power in the wrong places. Guitars belong in the mids, very simple. Put a frown on the EQ. You can then cut back on the overdrive/fuzz/distortion, turn up the amp and bask in your newly found sonic kingdom, a la Lifeson. Clean up your picking then reintroduce overdrive.:rockon2:


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## Guitarded88 (Apr 1, 2009)

dwagar said:


> hmm, maybe I have to dust off this old guy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It usually is the case...

Just a tip, if you're recording metal and NEED that uber compressed high gain tone the key is multitracking. Record yourself 2-4 times playing the same part.

And remember it doesn't count if you just copy and paste :smile:


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There is a difference between playing on your own at home, and playing with others. In the context of playing with others, the ear has to do an enormous amount of work in sorting out which source to assign all that harmonic content to. And assigning harmonic content easily and accurately is a HUGE part of of what makes for pleasing listening and easy musical collaboration.

Problem is, way too many players define their "sound" within the context of playing at home on their own. This is, of course, the very reason why almost every "beginner" amp will come with the capacity to produce distortion, and why pretty much the first pedal any budding guitarist buys is a distortion. When there is no one else around, they make you sound H-U-G-E because one instrument, heavily distorted, mimics the presence of copious amounts of harmonic content that would normally occur with a full band.

When you DO have a full band, though, what is the right amount of harmonic content in a bedroom context becomes waaaaaaaayyyyy too much harmonic content when other players are added in to the mix. remember, you only have two ears, and when they throw all that harmonic content at yur ears, it's a bit like trying to eat a burger that not only has all the condiments you put on it, but also the condiments that everyone else likes added on top of that. Ultimately, it feels like there's no burger underneath.

So, if you're recording at home with headphones on, or striking your best poses in front of the mirror with your 2nd hand Squier, go as crazy with the gain as you want. If you,re playing with other people, easing back on the gain will let your ears and others' ears do their job effectively, and permit you to actually hear the instrument as a coherent focussed sound source.


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## Deef (Nov 5, 2006)

That's a good point, mhammer. Microphones really pick up the "gainy-ness" if you have your gain set too high, and if you mix that with another guitarist who sets it the same way, it can really cause the guitars to get lost in the mix. Holding back on the gain in a live situation is the best advice I ever received.


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