# Rap outranking Rock ?!?



## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

I read this morning that Rap was taking more and more place while Rock was no more successful except for well established groups ! The columnist was even suggesting (joking ?!) to newbies to sell their electrics !
My goodness !


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

mawmow said:


> I read this morning that Rap was taking more and more place while Rock was no more successful except for well established groups ! The columnist was even suggesting (joking ?!) to newbies to sell their electrics !
> My goodness !


Funny. I mentioned something along similar lines in another thread here earlier today. Rock is stuck and has been for a long time, rap is adapting and evolving but I don't think it's time to sell guitars just yet.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

A friend of mine, a great melodist (playing slide as well as manouche style compositions as well as some adaptations) from France, sent a link to a song of a French group whom he qualified the music as a mix of Blues and Rap.

I hear no crude traditional rap there but rock or metal and singing. There is real music here. Well, if this piece represents rap new clothes, it is quite interesting.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

This isn't anything really new. Rap/Hip-Hop has been outselling Rock releases by A LOT for a looooong time now.

Quick - name a successful rock band that debuted in the last 10 years! Good luck. There are tons of bands that I'm into right now, but I know I'll never hear from them again, or they'll never become more successful than a couple club tours. If it's arena you're talking about, it's all bands that have been around for a while.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

hollowbody said:


> This isn't anything really new. Rap/Hip-Hop has been outselling Rock releases by A LOT for a looooong time now.
> 
> Quick - name a successful rock band that debuted in the last 10 years! Good luck. There are tons of bands that I'm into right now, but I know I'll never hear from them again, or they'll never become more successful than a couple club tours. If it's arena you're talking about, it's all bands that have been around for a while.


I can just think of one. Those young guys that sound like Zeppelin seem to be doing ok, but I can't remember their name off hand


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

Scottone said:


> I can just think of one. Those young guys that sound like Zeppelin seem to be doing ok, but I can't remember their name off hand


I think you just kinda verified his point.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

mawmow said:


> A friend of mine, a great melodist (playing slide as well as manouche style compositions as well as some adaptations) from France, sent a link to a song of a French group whom he qualified the music as a mix of Blues and Rap.
> 
> I hear no crude traditional rap there but rock or metal and singing. There is real music here. Well, if this piece represents rap new clothes, it is quite interesting.


I'm no expert, but this sounds like EDM (electronic dance music) to me.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

mawmow said:


> I read this morning that Rap was taking more and more place while Rock was no more successful except for well established groups ! The columnist was even suggesting (joking ?!) to newbies to sell their electrics !
> My goodness !


I don't know why this would be a surprise. Kids have far less interest in rock than rap, and have for over a decade.
Even if its radio top-40 pop, chances are the song will have a dance/rap beat behind it or a "vs" or "feat." some rapper for part of the song.
the closest thing to a widely successful new rock band I can think of is Maroon 5, but that's a real stretch. but at least they have a guitarist and don't use turntables. 

Music: Top 100 Songs | Billboard Hot 100 Chart
lots of rap, not much rock.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

Hamstrung said:


> I think you just kinda verified his point.


True....I googled them, its Greta Van Fleet


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Diablo said:


> Music: Top 100 Songs | Billboard Hot 100 Chart


I think the Hot 100 has always had an absence of rock.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

LanceT said:


> I think the Hot 100 has always had an absence of rock.


I believe that. But I doubt if you pick any popular national chart listing you'll find much rock on it though. But I'm always happy to be proven wrong  Id like to believe rock isn't dead or irrelevant....or just another niche like "world music".
maybe we need to re-evaluate our definition of rock...maybe it just doesn't get any harder than ed Sheeran, Maroon 5 and Arcade Fire, before it gets something like an "Alt-" in front of it.
Even bands I really like, like All American Rejects and Treble charger and Fountains of Wayne, have kind of fizzled out. There will always be Foo Fighters I guess. At least I'm saving money on cd's/downloads.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Doesn't surprise me. Don't have to spend money either,.... except on your hat, shoes, clothes.........


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

I don't think Rock is dead, but it is becoming niche. A friend of mine owns a record store, he says Rap outsells Rock by a lot, and those guys are willing to drop a S**T-LOAD of cash on an LP. 

As much as I cannot stand Billy Talent (I'm thinking it was meant as an oxymoron) they sell well, and has it been 10yrs? 

... oh God, if that's my argument, Rock *IS* dead!


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

I thought Afraid Of Heights was well done. More power-popish then what they typically do. There's hope yet.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Oh my God ! Reading your comments makes me feel depressed.
If Rock is going down, what about great instrumentals ?
Will my generation leave this world with my beloved acoustic melodies ?! Should we hope great contemporary instrumentals will survive besides Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, Mozart, etc.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

SWLABR said:


> I don't think Rock is dead, but it is becoming niche. A friend of mine owns a record store, he says Rap outsells Rock by a lot, and those guys are willing to drop a S**T-LOAD of cash on an LP.
> 
> As much as I cannot stand Billy Talent (I'm thinking it was meant as an oxymoron) they sell well, and has it been 10yrs?
> 
> ... oh God, if that's my argument, Rock *IS* dead!


Lol. Billy Talent has been around since 1999! Also, they don't sell well. They don't sell at all. Maroon 5 was also mentioned and while they're not what I would call a rock act, they are very successful, but again, they've been around 15+yrs.

Other than Foo Fighters, Killers, Arcade Fire, Kings of Leon, etc. I can't really think of any acts that are selling arena shows. 

I got pretty excited for some homegrown bands like Hollerado, Fast Romantics, Sam Coffey and the Iron Lungs, etc., but they'll be club bands forever. 

Actually, let's really get down to it - has anyone seen a rock band (we can loosen the description of rock to a live band playing instruments ) that was formed post-2007 playing an arena show recently? I'm thinking Imagine Dragons, maaaaaybe the National. Who else?


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

The National is still only just above club level in Vancouver. They are playing the Queen Elizabeth Theatre which has maybe 2000 seats. It is for two nights though.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

He is the solution:


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## JHall55 (Dec 6, 2016)

Rap can have the arenas and stadiums. I’d rather see a rock band in a club/theatre anyways. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

JHall55 said:


> Rap can have the arenas and stadiums. I’d rather see a rock band in a club/theatre anyways.


Here, here!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

It is true that RAP is cheaper to produce for the music industry so anything that makes them more money is what they will push. The owners and shareholders are interested in making money, not music.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> It is true that RAP is cheaper to produce for the music industry so anything that makes them more money is what they will push. The owners and shareholders are interested in making money, not music.


how is it true?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

hollowbody said:


> Lol. Billy Talent has been around since 1999! Also, they don't sell well. They don't sell at all. Maroon 5 was also mentioned and while they're not what I would call a rock act, they are very successful, but again, they've been around 15+yrs.
> 
> Other than Foo Fighters, Killers, Arcade Fire, Kings of Leon, etc. I can't really think of any acts that are selling arena shows.
> 
> ...


Monster truck.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> It is true that RAP is cheaper to produce for the music industry so anything that makes them more money is what they will push. The owners and shareholders are interested in making money, not music.


Don't think you're right about that. Like it or not, there is a lot of production that goes into those tracks


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Scottone said:


> Don't think you're right about that. Like it or not, there is a lot of production that goes into those tracks


I got this info from ar article on the music industry in comparing the two genres.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

vadsy said:


> how is it true?


It isn't.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

The glorious sons sold out london music hall tonight.


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## luker0 (Apr 18, 2017)

JHall55 said:


> Rap can have the arenas and stadiums. I’d rather see a rock band in a club/theatre anyways.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This. I'd rather go to 4-5 club gigs than an arena show. 

The last arena we went to was almost a year ago to see Kaleo and the Lumineers. Was worth the 80 bucks as both bands put on a stellar performance. We went primarily to see Kaleo and we're pleasantly surprised by the Lumineers. 

Since then I've been to somewhere around 15 other shows, all of which were cheaper and just as good, with one of them being even better. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Something like Thompson Hall in Toronto is about as big a venue that allows one to be a bit more intimate with the audience and vice-versa. I have been to both and the smaller shows are better and the sound is usually better in smaller venues, or at least in theatres for that is what they are designed for.

You usually don't need to worry about wearing earplugs to protect your hearing, either.


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## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

Probably no need for exclamation points or question marks in the thread title. No surprise or mystery to the statement.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Every time one of these opinion pieces appears it reminds of all those other times.

My rant.

Rock isn't dead, it's not going to disappear, and it doesn't matter what people think. It's not a competition anyway. Classical is still here, so is baroque, romantic, renaissance, swing jazz, gregorian chant, etc, blah, blah, blah. Maybe rock has hit its peak, maybe not, maybe it doesn't matter, because some form of it will be around as long as there are perpetrators and consumers. Not happy that there hasn't been a new wave (pun or not) of rock music? Too bad, listen to more and different music, or make it yourself. Dig deeper. If rap is your only alternative, I pity you, there is SO MUCH OTHER MUSIC in the world worthy of your attention. Can't find something you like? That says a lot more about you than music. Do you want your tastes to be dominant in society? Does that matter to you?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> I got this info from ar article on the music industry in comparing the two genres.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I always hoped I was not going to be my parents. So far, I'm not. They said, "What is this rock and roll crap". And I haven't said what is this rap crap. And I won't. And I never say "Get the hell off my lawn" either. (Well, I do live in an apartment)


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Robert1950 said:


> I always hoped I was not going to be my parents. So far, I'm not. They said, "What is this rock and roll crap". And *I haven't said what is this rap crap. *


So, you're that incognito rap guy on the forum.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Mooh said:


> Every time one of these opinion pieces appears it reminds of all those other times.
> 
> My rant.
> 
> Rock isn't dead, it's not going to disappear, and it doesn't matter what people think. It's not a competition anyway. Classical is still here, so is baroque, romantic, renaissance, swing jazz, gregorian chant, etc, blah, blah, blah. Maybe rock has hit its peak, maybe not, maybe it doesn't matter, because some form of it will be around as long as there are perpetrators and consumers. Not happy that there hasn't been a new wave (pun or not) of rock music? Too bad, listen to more and different music, or make it yourself. Dig deeper. If rap is your only alternative, I pity you, there is SO MUCH OTHER MUSIC in the world worthy of your attention. Can't find something you like? That says a lot more about you than music. Do you want your tastes to be dominant in society? Does that matter to you?


That's a good point. No music ever dies - especially now in the 'unlimited storage' internet era. Everything will live on in perpetuity, or until the power goes off.

Whether it's popular or not is a whole other discussion.

When I watch a major sporting event and _*don't*_ hear classic rock over the PA, I know we're into a new era, Not there yet, but that can't be too far off, can it?


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## Xelebes (Mar 9, 2015)

Playing guitar doesn't stop you from playing rap.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

hollowbody said:


> This isn't anything really new. Rap/Hip-Hop has been outselling Rock releases by A LOT for a looooong time now.
> 
> Quick - name a successful rock band that debuted in the last 10 years! Good luck. There are tons of bands that I'm into right now, but I know I'll never hear from them again, or they'll never become more successful than a couple club tours. If it's arena you're talking about, it's all bands that have been around for a while.


Imagine Dragons
One Republic


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Guncho said:


> Imagine Dragons
> One Republic


If these bands are rock we should add Ed Sheeran and Katy Perry to the list.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Why does rock mean leather pants and Marshall stacks only?

These guys are playing all the traditional rock instruments.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> So, you're that incognito rap guy on the forum.


I like rap and always have.

Run DMC, Beastie Boys, NWA, Public Enemy, Ice T, Macklemore, etc.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Guncho said:


> Why does rock mean leather pants and Marshall stacks only?
> 
> These guys are playing all the traditional rock instruments.


I didn't say Marshall stacks and leather pants but this doesn't come off as 'rock'


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## Xelebes (Mar 9, 2015)

vadsy said:


> I didn't say Marshall stacks and leather pants but this doesn't come off as 'rock'


And the Beatles don't come off as rock and yet they are still considered rock.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Xelebes said:


> And the Beatles don't come off as rock and yet they are still considered rock.


Some of it was rock


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Budda said:


> Monster truck.


Monster Truck are great, but I'd hardly call them an arena band. They play big venues opening for Nickleback and others, but they're not anywhere near that big themselves. Doubt they ever will be.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

LanceT said:


> The National is still only just above club level in Vancouver. They are playing the Queen Elizabeth Theatre which has maybe 2000 seats. It is for two nights though.


Yeah, they were bordering on arena level for a little bit, but here in TO they recently played the Sony Centre (3,000 seats). I can't see them as an arena band, anyway. I've seen them 5 times and loved them in places like Horseshoe and Opera House.



Guncho said:


> Imagine Dragons
> One Republic





vadsy said:


> If these bands are rock we should add Ed Sheeran and Katy Perry to the list.


It really depends on the definition - what makes a rock band 'rock'? You may not like Imagine Dragons or One Republic (I could take or leave either), but that doesn't mean they're not rock if you're talking about live bands playing instruments, which is how I'd define rock at the most basic these days. Pop stars tend to not have backing bands and play to tracks. I don't like Nickleback, but that doesn't mean they're not rock 

The comment about the Beatles is a good example. The bubblegum pop of their early albums wasn't as edgy as some stuff from 50s/60s rock, but I think they were still a rock band, for-sure. Retrospectively, they're definitely in the rock category.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

hollowbody said:


> It really depends on the definition - what makes a rock band 'rock'? You may not like Imagine Dragons or One Republic (I could take or leave either), but that doesn't mean they're not rock if you're talking about live bands playing instruments, which is how I'd define rock at the most basic these days. Pop stars tend to not have backing bands and play to tracks. I don't like Nickleback, but that doesn't mean they're not rock
> The comment about the Beatles is a good example. The bubblegum pop of their early albums wasn't as edgy as some stuff from 50s/60s rock, but I think they were still a rock band, for-sure. Retrospectively, they're definitely in the rock category.


I get the argument but it still doesn't fly, it isn't rock and roll. Pink has Justin Derrico playing guitar for her and covers some Zeppelin tunes on the tour, should we add that to the rock list as well? Nickleback is rock, the rest mentioned in the last few posts, less the Beatles later years, is pure pop.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

We wouldn't have the many sub-genres and sub-sub-genres of popular music if rock was stagnant. Trace the roots of pretty much any pop/rap act and see where it goes.
The best thing about rock music is it continues to morph and grow, that is it's essence. Rock defies easy description. Most of the bands listed in this thread in my mind are different takes on the most broad of musical genres, that of rock.

There is no such thing as pure pop. Pure schmaltz, like Barry Manilow, absolutely, but even he would likely admit to some rock influences in his music and if you could stand listening, you'd likely be able to identify those influences.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

SWLABR said:


> As much as I cannot stand Billy Talent (I'm thinking it was meant as an oxymoron) they sell well, and has it been 10yrs?


I hear you there. Cannot stand them either. Oxymoron? Probably not, but if you don't like something, it sure comes across like crap


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

vadsy said:


> If these bands are rock we should add Ed Sheeran and Katy Perry to the list.


Maybe not Katy, but Pink? Coldplay? Maybe even Rihanna has her moments (she has a hair metal dinosaur in her band, and Shut up and drive is about as rock as anything you'll hear on the radio these days)
Like it or not this is what popular rock looks like today.
The first sign things were getting watered down should have been when Avril Lavigne was labelled as "punk" 10 yrs ago due to some ripped jeans and a spoiled suburban bitch attitude.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Diablo said:


> Maybe not Katy, but Pink? Coldplay? Maybe even Rihanna has her moments (she has a hair metal dinosaur in her band, and Shut up and drive is about as rock as anything you'll hear on the radio these days)
> Like it or not this is what popular rock looks like today.
> The first sign things were getting watered down should have been when Avril Lavigne was labelled as "punk" 10 yrs ago due to some ripped jeans and a spoiled suburban bitch attitude.


Shut Up and Drive came out ten years ago, I remember because I liked it. hah


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

vadsy said:


> Shut Up and Drive came out ten years ago, I remember because I liked it. hah


ya, that's about as current as I get these days....other than what my wife and kid torture me with.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Diablo said:


> ....other than what my wife and kid torture me with.


I'm with you here.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

vadsy said:


> I get the argument but it still doesn't fly, it isn't rock and roll. Pink has Justin Derrico playing guitar for her and covers some Zeppelin tunes on the tour, should we add that to the rock list as well? Nickleback is rock, the rest mentioned in the last few posts, less the Beatles later years, is pure pop.


I think Pink and Lady Gaga are both on the border between Top 40 Pop and Rock. Both feature live bands (usually) and both have an attitude/look/demeanor that just seems rock n roll to me. If they were born 30 years ago, either one would have grown up to be Joan Jett. But yeah, I'm not comfortable defining pop acts that play live instruments as rock either.

It's a sad state of affairs when the only guitar you hear on Top 40 radio is the lead sampled from Santana's Maria Maria on a DJ Khaled track. Although, kudos to Ariana Grande for having quite a bit of guitar (including SOLOS!) on her latest album.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

And the thing is....why do we care? Rock is still alive and well enough to outlast us.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

hollowbody said:


> I think Pink and Lady Gaga are both on the border between Top 40 Pop and Rock. Both feature live bands (usually) and both have an attitude/look/demeanor that just seems rock n roll to me. If they were born 30 years ago, either one would have grown up to be Joan Jett. But yeah, I'm not comfortable defining pop acts that play live instruments as rock either.
> 
> It's a sad state of affairs when the only guitar you hear on Top 40 radio is the lead sampled from Santana's Maria Maria on a DJ Khaled track. Although, kudos to Ariana Grande for having quite a bit of guitar (including SOLOS!) on her latest album.


These acts are a spinoff of rock, an evolution, but they aren't what rock was when it came into its own many years ago and the genre was named. It (rock) evolved from something else and was strong for decades, these days it isn't doing much, just relying mostly on its glory years acts. The current music has all but mostly left it behind even though it still draws from it. Arianas album was produced with a midi keyboard and a guitar plugin.



Scotty said:


> And the thing is....why do we care? Rock is still alive and well enough to outlast us.


We care because this is a music forum. Rock is still alive but it isn't well just because a couple of Zeppelin spinoff bands are selling out a 500 seat theatre in NYC. It will outlast us though.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

vadsy said:


> We care because this is a music forum. Rock is still alive but it isn't well just because a couple of Zeppelin spinoff bands are selling out a 500 seat theatre in NYC. *It will outlast us though*.


Will it? I'm generally not a defeatist, but what happens when Roger Waters stops touring the Wall? Or Jimmy Page stops showing up everywhere?!? How will my great grand kids know this stuff exists? I'm not looking for an answer, just throwing out a hypothetical. There will always be musical scholars, so maybe one day they will teach Pink Floyd, the way I was taught about Mozart. 

That being said, I'll be dead, so who cares.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

vadsy said:


> Arianas album was produced with a midi keyboard and a guitar plugin.


I didn't know that! I'll have to look into some of the production notes. I remember thinking it was definitely guitar-heavy for a pop album.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

hollowbody said:


> I didn't know that! I'll have to look into some of the production notes. I remember thinking it was definitely guitar-heavy for a pop album.


I'm not going off of the notes but it was a discussion on another forum, this very topic. I'm siding with the digital side but willing to accept it is real if someone is actually credited with the work.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

I consider some of the bands mentioned lately about as "Rock" as I consider some of the new Nickelback as "Rap". (just no, in either case  )
Or the even worse 'country rap' for that matter.
But we all have rather fluid definitions of the genres so I don't think there is any consensus to be had in any case.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

vadsy said:


> I'm not going off of the notes but it was a discussion on another forum, this very topic. I'm siding with the digital side but willing to accept it is real if someone is actually credited with the work.


There were a bunch of the notes in the Dangerous Woman solo that definitely sounded like it could've been a keyboard run rather than a guitar run. I chalked it up to a really fuzzy tone covering the string attack, but if it was a keyboard, that makes a lot more sense.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

SWLABR said:


> Will it? I'm generally not a defeatist, but what happens when Roger Waters stops touring the Wall? Or Jimmy Page stops showing up everywhere?!? How will my great grand kids know this stuff exists? I'm not looking for an answer, just throwing out a hypothetical. There will always be musical scholars, so maybe one day they will teach Pink Floyd, the way I was taught about Mozart.
> 
> That being said, I'll be dead, so who cares.


If it comes to that then we can learn about Pink Floyd the same way we learned about Mozart.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

hollowbody said:


> There were a bunch of the notes in the Dangerous Woman solo that definitely sounded like it could've been a keyboard run rather than a guitar run. I chalked it up to a really fuzzy tone covering the string attack, but if it was a keyboard, that makes a lot more sense.


Exactly, I gave it a couple of listens and I'm going with midi keyboard.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

In this day and age I doubt any of the currently existing (and recorded for posterity) genres of music will "die" as there will always be a market but from a cultural influence standpoint Rock and Roll and it's most direct descendants has driven it for the last 50 years or so. This has been shifting for some time towards Hip Hop and R&B. Here's another indicator...

Coachella Lineup May Point To A Shifting Middle


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

I'm starting to think Disco was pretty good.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2018)

davetcan said:


> I'm starting to think Disco was pretty good.


Nah, it still sucks.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

laristotle said:


> Nah, it still sucks.


Everything is relative


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2018)

ok. I'll give you wild cherry.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

davetcan said:


> Everything is relative


I like that Drake track, but would give Wild Cherry the edge on this match-up. Think Drake would get the win over this one though


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

As I said, everything is relative, LOL.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

What did disco morph into? Techno/EDM?


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

vadsy said:


> What did disco morph into? Techno/EDM?


Pretty much. It's in everything. _ Get Lucky_ would probably be considered disco by some, though I'd argue it's more funk.
Timberlake, that Weekened guy, and many others incorporate it. I hear disco in Taylor Swift tunes like _Style._


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