# j 45 gibson and others



## jimmy c g (Jan 1, 2008)

had a j45 for a year now, i sifted thru 5 to find a "good one" and wonder if perhaps the last few years gibson has seen a decline in playability and consistencey? thoughts ? j


----------



## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

Newer J45's have much stiffer top bracing than the older ones, that's for sure...


----------



## StratCat (Dec 30, 2013)

I keep wanting to like these, but every time I pick one up and play it, there's no "wow" like I have with my Taylor 814. Very different sound, I get that, and maybe I just prefer the richness of the Taylor sound. The J45's I have played sound dull in comparison.

love the look, love the Gibson vibe, but have yet to think it's worth 2k+.


----------



## DeSelby (May 4, 2016)

A friend has an old J45. Great guitar. Whenever I've tried one in a store it just doesn't do it. Undoubtedly there are some great new ones but I think it luck of the draw and on the whole they don't seem worth the money. 

On the other hand it's a model that has good name and brand recognition. So if you decide to sell it you should get a reasonable return on your investment.


----------



## Tarbender (Apr 7, 2006)

I've had 4 of them. Never kept one longer than 6 months. Nice guitars just never bonded with them. Much preferred my Martin and Taylor guitars.


----------



## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Everyone who buys one says they went through a bunch until they found a "good one". Could it just be some natural variation in what is still a mostly handmade, wood product? I can't imagine that there are 100s of bad J-45s rotting away in stores while all of the "good ones" are bought and bragged about on guitar forums.

I think Gibson is making great guitars of excellent quality lately, but there is some variation due to how they're made. Given how subjective a criterion "good-sounding" is, I think it's likely more a matter of finding one that you like, not one that's intrinsically better.

I'm sure there are a few dogs, as there are from every company, but I've played a lot of good-sounding guitars that just weren't my cup of tea.


----------



## JohnnyT (Dec 12, 2014)

I can't imagine not having a J-45 in the stable. Ever. By far my favourite acoustic guitar. That said, I get very frustrated with Gibson over inconsistencies in their production, especially (though not exclusively) on the acoustic side. Companies like Martin, Collings and Taylor blow Gibson away in terms of fit, finish and consistency of tone and quality.

I'll start with what i love about J-45s. First, nothing sounds like a J-45. Nothing. Not even the high end slope shoulder copies from companies like Collings, great as they all are. To my ears, J-45s are mid heavy, thick with strong, though hopefully not woofy, bottom end. There's enough sparkle on the top end in a good one, but sparkle isn't what they are meant to do. IMHO when people say "I tried a bunch and they all sounded bland," I think part of the problem i that our ears tend to pick out the highs and the string to string definition more than they do the mid rangey tones. When we don't hear all that top end sparkle, we think it's boring at first blush. But IMHO time and careful listening reveals J-45s to be gloriously rich in tone. They're just working with a different set of rules. Less piano like tones, more whisky and tobacco soaked. Try this sometime -- if you don't like how your J-45 sounds, hand it to a friend, stand 10 feet back and have him or her strum a song and sing to it. You might change your mind. Wonderful guitars to sing with. But honestly, if Taylors are the sound you like, I think you should just move on. Nothing wrong with Taylors at all -- great guitars -- but I can't imagine two acoustic guitars more polar opposite than Gibsons and Taylors.

I also love that you can beat on them. They take hard strumming really well and because they smooth out all the rough edges, unlike Martin or Taylors, they're more forgiving of that type of playing. In fact, they love it. (there's a reason they're nicknamed 'the workhorse'). They also tend to be very comfortable guitars to play. The combination of the shorter scale, rounder fretboard radius and some other J-45 magic tends to make them easier on the left hand than just about any other acoustic I've ever owned. 

Now for the bad, and it's a long list too. It does take patience to find a good one. Massive inconsistencies in tone and quality. Neck angles all over the place, some with bridges as thick as your finger, some with more than a quarter inch of saddle, others with nearly none. No consistency on the bursts. A look inside often shows lots of shavings, and splinters on the braces. Mine had a sloppy pickup install and a case with gobs of glue all over the place. I would never in a million years ever buy a Gibson acoustic online or without playing it first. Way too risky. 

While some will disagree, I don't find J-45s to be very good at all for fingerpicking. At least not the modern ones. They're comfortable to fingerpick, but in this one style i do want more sparkle and top end than the J-45 can deliver. While i don't play with them live, i'd imagine they're not good and cutting through a mix either. Finally, i also find the necks too thin. I wish the True Vintage or one of the CS models came with a bit of a chunkier neck. 

J-45s are a bit like family. They really piss you off sometimes, but i can't imagine life without them.


----------



## StratCat (Dec 30, 2013)

Thanks for that great explanation and I think you truly nailed it. It's a different sound and when truly heard, it connects with the listener/player.

Having someone else on play it for you is an excellent recommendation. I once had a Tech21 Trademark 10 amp that I liked but got bored off so I sold it. The guy who bought it played my Squier Strat through it and while he was playing, all I could think of was ..."what?? It doesn't sound like that when I play it". Which speaks to the fact that part of the tone equation, a big part, is in our hands and fingers.

You mention that you don't think a J-45 is good for fingerpicking. Do you play with a pick? Strum with fingers? Playing with a pick vice fingers will definitely impact tone. I rarely use a pick with the Taylor, if ever. Maybe I need to try the J45 with a pick.

For me, for now, I think my ears are just "tuned" to the Taylor sound, but having read your post, the next time I pick up a J45, I will deliberately try to play AND listen to it differently.


----------



## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

+1 on JohnnyT's post.


----------



## jimmy c g (Jan 1, 2008)

thanks for good replies, i love gibson guitars and have for decades, just find the variables from git to git a pain, at 2500 up they should all be great with some greater, not so so to great,also I wonder if the old gits were so widely different in the same model and year? AND wonder why they must change them every year and tell us that NOW, this years models are much improved over last year...and then again next year? jim - hope you all have a great month (and enjoy snow )


----------



## JohnnyT (Dec 12, 2014)

StratCat, i fingerpick alot, but tend to use other guitars for that, often smaller bodied acoustics, including a Gibson LG-3. The J-45 is very easy to play fingerstyle ... the slinkyness is great and the slope shoulder makes it comfortable, even seated, but i don't get the tone i want. They can sound great flatpicked though:


----------



## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

jimmy c g said:


> thanks for good replies, i love gibson guitars and have for decades, just find the variables from git to git a pain, at 2500 up they should all be great with some greater, not so so to great,also I wonder if the old gits were so widely different in the same model and year? AND wonder why they must change them every year and tell us that NOW, this years models are much improved over last year...and then again next year? jim - hope you all have a great month (and enjoy snow )


The "improvements" they make year over year are mostly marketing, I agree. I wonder what makes you think J-45s are "so-so to great". For that matter, what makes a guitar great or so-so at all? Is it an objective measure or is it subjective? We can go by things like fit and finish, which we can certainly observe from an objective point of view. But tone is something that is personal, so to say a guitar is great or not based on how it sounds is only meaningful to the person saying it. For example, I have played several excellent Taylor's, Martins and Larrivees, but they don't do it for me in the sound department. Does that make them "so-so"? To me, it sure does, even though I know they are fantastic guitars and I can appreciate them as such.


----------



## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

@JohnnyT: that's probably the best and most honest description I've ever read on the J45 and i couldn't agree more. I have a koa 45 along with a Taylor 816 plus a D-35 facsimilie (an early Japanese Sigma-I know, unfair comparison) and the 45 is still my favorite for all the reasons you've stated. Much like electrics, the guitar you pick up on any certain day has a lot to do with the mood you're in.


----------



## jimmy c g (Jan 1, 2008)

I say so so to great not just referencing tone, but also set up, neck angle, frets and overall feel off the rack, all these should be somewhat consistant at this price range and if you read g advertsments ( dont !) still ,I will say ,i will have a gibson till I cant play anymore ( might have others too ! ) had one scince 91- pauls-sgs-aj-hummers-dove-j200s and a few i forgot !! seems the 90s models played better and were less problimatic with set ups chilly cheers to all j


----------



## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

jimmy c g said:


> at 2500 up they should all be great with some greater,


 How much more does it cost to get an old one?
I guess my wartime banner must have gone up in value quite a bit in the last 10 years?


----------



## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

I tried a few before deciding on my Martin D-18 and found they sounded kind of "muffled".


----------



## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

I hate to sound like a fanboy but my J45 Standard is my go to guitar for flat picking, strumming, Travis picking, finger picking... I love the way it does it all. I played loads of them over the years and always ended up buying something else when it came time to lay my money down. A couple of years back I decided after buying an Advanced Jumbo and a Songwriter Deluxe Studio that I would buy a guitar with mahogany back and sides, a Hummingbird was too pricey for me and I wasn't really in love with the Martins I'd been trying at the time. So I took a chance and called L&M, the salesman told me they had a J45 there and said a few times that it was a good one. I just blew it off as his sales pitch, but I was wrong to do so. It's my favorite and it's got the nicest set up of all of my acoustics.

So now that you know how biased I am, I'll say without a doubt Gibson setups aren't great out of the box. It seems like there's batches that will have a perfect nut and then another load where they're all a bit on the high side. Saddle height is always high but I've found that to be the case on almost every acoustic hanging on the rack. As for sound that's all in the player's preference if you ask me, there's good ones and "bad" ones but at $2500 if it doesn't do it for you then I'd suggest you might be looking at the wrong guitar.


----------



## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

Guncho said:


> I tried a few before deciding on my Martin D-18 and found they sounded kind of "muffled".


My J50 really benefits from lighter gauge 80/20 bronze strings to add some presence. Don't even mind trading off the extra volume to get it either.


----------



## jimmy c g (Jan 1, 2008)

wrong guitar may be hitting the nail on the head . I beyond 60 and "aint big'' so Im shopping for smaller neck and body and am leaving jumbos and dreds for the rest of the world ...getting old aint all its cracked up to be ! better than the alternative tho


----------



## Slooky (Feb 3, 2015)

Guncho said:


> I tried a few before deciding on my Martin D-18 and found they sounded kind of "muffled".


Couldn't agree more. I went to buy a guitar and tried a Martin, a Taylor, a Larrivee , and decided to try a Gibson. Well the Gibson sounded dull compared to the other guitars mentioned. Like it was soaked in water. My choice was a Martin!
It really makes a person want to give 110 percent when your CEO is a Moron. Buyer beware because some acoustics were made in Newfoundland and Gibson bought the company and put the GIBSON name on them.


----------



## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Slooky said:


> Couldn't agree more. I went to buy a guitar and tried a Martin, a Taylor, a Larrivee , and decided to try a Gibson. Well the Gibson sounded dull compared to the other guitars mentioned. Like it was soaked in water. My choice was a Martin!


It's funny you think Gibsons sound dull, I think Taylors sound bright and brash with no balls. Larrivees sound good, but a bit stiff and I have yet to find a Martin that made me want to take it home. I guess, as many here have said, it's a matter of what you like to hear. I grew up listening to my dad's '57 Southern Jumbo (a dressed up J-45), so that sound is my favourite. 



> It really makes a person want to give 110 percent when your CEO is a Moron. Buyer beware because some acoustics were made in New Brunswick and Gibson bought the company and put the GIBSON name on them.


Newfoundland?

Garrison Guitars - Wikipedia

That was a short-lived line and easily identified, so let's not spread unsubstantiated rumours about "buyer beware" of New Brunswick-made Gibsons...


----------



## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

A lot of singer/songwriters I like these days play J-45's so I really wanted to like them. Just wasn't for me.

Works for these guys!


----------



## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Here's the sound for me. 

2012+ Martin D-18


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

AS others have said the J 45 is a great rhythm guitar. I just prefer rosewood back and sides. It suits my style better.


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I've also heard the J45 is a great guitar for solo singer/player. The Gibson's sound doesn't compete as much with the voice, leaves it room in the spectrum. So the truth is 'to each, their own'. Everyone's got different requirements - and different ears.

I was always a rosewood fan - I liked the fullness and lushness of RW. That was until I played a few very good ($6k - $9k) mahogany guitars with old or sinker mahogany. A whole different ballgame to me. Nothing like a D18 or J45, and very reminiscent of rosewood. Absolutes in this game are pointless, unless you've played every possible combination of woods and body shapes. And you haven't.


----------



## StratCat (Dec 30, 2013)

jb welder said:


> How much more does it cost to get an old one?
> I guess my wartime banner must have gone up in value quite a bit in the last 10 years?


There's a 1942 J45 listed on Toronto kijiji for $14,000.00

And a 1963 for $2,600.00


----------



## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

High/Deaf said:


> I've also heard the J45 is a great guitar for solo singer/player. The Gibson's sound doesn't compete as much with the voice, leaves it room in the spectrum.


This makes a lot of sense to me. Out of the bunch of singer/songwriters who play J45's that I like maybe they really like the pickup as well.


----------



## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

StratCat said:


> There's a 1942 J45 listed on Toronto kijiji for $14,000.00


Well, like the Blondie song said, 'dreaming is free'.


----------



## GUInessTARS (Dec 28, 2007)

now I want a j-45.


----------



## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

GUInessTARS said:


> now I want a j-45.


As it should be


----------



## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

The Fretboard Journal's latest podcast has an expert panel (see below) discussing the inconsistency of quality control at Gibson for well over a century. It describes a culture that explains what many of us have experienced when trying a few.

Podcast 129: Vintage Gibson Panel at the Fretboard Summit | Fretboard Journal



> Yet another fun session from the 2016 Fretboard Summit! This week, we hear John Thomas (_Kalamazoo Gals_), TJ Thompson, Mark Stutman (Folkway Music), Jim Baggett (Mass Street Music), Robb Lawrence (_The Les Paul Legacy_) and David Sheppard (Lowe Vintage) field questions on vintage Gibson acoustic guitars. Topics include: Solid linings versus kerfed linings; Orville Gibson; converting ladder-braced models to X-braced; repair headaches; finish thickness; and much more.
> 
> Sponsored by TR Crandall.


----------



## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

The Fretboard Journal's latest podcast has an expert panel (see below) discussing the inconsistency of quality control at Gibson for well over a century. It describes a culture that explains what many of us have experienced when trying a few.

Podcast 129: Vintage Gibson Panel at the Fretboard Summit | Fretboard Journal



> Yet another fun session from the 2016 Fretboard Summit! This week, we hear John Thomas (_Kalamazoo Gals_), TJ Thompson, Mark Stutman (Folkway Music), Jim Baggett (Mass Street Music), Robb Lawrence (_The Les Paul Legacy_) and David Sheppard (Lowe Vintage) field questions on vintage Gibson acoustic guitars. Topics include: Solid linings versus kerfed linings; Orville Gibson; converting ladder-braced models to X-braced; repair headaches; finish thickness; and much more.
> 
> Sponsored by TR Crandall.


----------



## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

In this day and age of marketing/ad dollars, it's very possible and even likely Fretboard Journal may have an inherent bias. Notwithstanding that aspect, almost all of us have our biases based on opinions, experiences and personal preferences.


----------



## jimmy c g (Jan 1, 2008)

bias is bias but when somthin aint right its wrong. surley after 100 plus years a little consistancy shouldnt be too much to ask for...


----------



## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

Wood is an organic compound and one there are many highly variable factors at play that can go into the "sonic stew" to make a guitar sound as it should (0r more to the point, as we imagine it should), even with refined modern methods of manufacturing. I've found poor sounding or performing examples of most makes of guitars hanging in guitar stores, but IME, many of these faults can be fixed, worked around or tweaked, outside of outright design flaws. When you build a few guitars yourself, this concept becomes more apparent. 

Granted, there are design factors which can help improve consistency in results (Taylor's NT system comes to mind), but those can imply some trade-offs of their own in many cases.

There's no secret formula that can appease everyone and thank goodness for that - vive la difference!


----------



## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

There is no secret formula that can appease everyone, but whatever formula a maker uses should be relatively consistent. Good materials, good tooling and a stringent adherence to quality control and product improvement will always yield better results than just slapping them together and sending them out the door.

None of the above needs to cost a lot, as the new breed of cheap imports built to tight standards proves.


----------



## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

Ron - don't disagree with you as your points are valid. The irony is that many of the offshore entry and mid level guitars that are mass-produced have higher quality control standards while it is often the higher-end domestic lines that we find the most issues with.

My best friend is a repair luthier and I see all manner of guitar makes/models of guitars come thru his shop regularly. The made in USA Martins, for example, are typically the ones with finish issues, not the offshore models (same holds true for Gretsch, Fender, Hamer, Gibson, etc). This can be attributed perhaps to the modern mass-production methods as well as the quality/selection of materials, woods and hardware used. 

And for sure, there have been periods where Gibson has not been immune to quality control issues (can't deny that), but even companies like Hamer that used to brag about how their electrics were virtually handmade from stem to stern had their fair share of issues (Hamer "pizza day" finishes are a good example of that). My luthier friend will swear about how easy it is to dial in a Gibson's relief with their truss-rod system, how nicely their nitro finishes age and little things like binding "nibs" over the fret edges and their inlay work, etc. (Personally, I like how a Gibson neck feels/plays, acoustic or electric).

Getting us to all agree on the "best" guitar in any category is like trying to argue about ice cream flavours - everyone's got their favourites.


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

gtone said:


> And for sure, there have been periods where Gibson has not been immune to quality control issues (can't deny that), but even companies like Hamer that used to brag about how *their electrics were virtually handmade from stem to stern *had their fair share of issues (Hamer "pizza day" finishes are a good example of that). My luthier friend will swear about how easy it is to dial in a Gibson's relief with their truss-rod system, how nicely their nitro finishes age and little things like binding "nibs" over the fret edges and their inlay work, etc. (Personally, I like how a Gibson neck feels/plays, acoustic or electric).
> 
> Getting us to all agree on the "best" guitar in any category is like trying to argue about ice cream flavours - everyone's got their favourites.


Amen to that, brutha! And a +1 too.

I find it curious that people consider 'hand made' as the holy grail. It depends on the hands, and the day and about 83 other factors. It can be 'the holy grail' but it isn't a guarantee of consistency by any stretch of the imagination.


----------



## jimmy c g (Jan 1, 2008)

hand made by a fine maker is gotta be better than mass produced machine made stuff imo - allways exceptions of course


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

jimmy c g said:


> hand made by a fine maker is gotta be better than mass produced machine made stuff imo - allways exceptions of course


I agree. If Kevin Ryan or George Lowden or James Olson had their hands on it, 'hand-made' is a very strong statement.


----------



## StratCat (Dec 30, 2013)

If anyone is interested, there is a 1954 J-45 listed on Kijij in London Ontario for $3500.00

Ad states "This is a 1954 J45 that was in great need of repair....

The guitar sounds amazing and has been appraised at $4000 USA Dollars. An all original untouched 1954 J45 in perfect condition is upwards of $5000 USA dollars. The restoration of this guitar was done by Kwasnycia Guitars."

If it sounds as good as it looks - WOW!!! And I'm a Taylor guy!


----------



## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

jdto said:


> Everyone who buys one says they went through a bunch until they found a "good one". Could it just be some natural variation in what is still a mostly handmade, wood product? I can't imagine that there are 100s of bad J-45s rotting away in stores while all of the "good ones" are bought and bragged about on guitar forums.


This. Also, we all have our preferences and hear things differently. One guy's solid bass is another guy's boomy lows. 

Nine years ago I fell in love with a Gibson Northern Jumbo acoustic, essentially a J-45 with different appointments and the love affair continues to this day. Master luthier Ren Ferguson brought a lot respectability to Gibson Montana during his tenure. I'm proud to own a guitar signed by him.

I find Gibson guitars to be extremely sensitive to the choice and condition of strings, much more so than other guitars. I've experimented a lot with strings and the best sounding ones that I've found are Gibson Masterbuilt Premium Phosphore Bronze. Unfortunately, they go dead in about two or three weeks. The guitars in stores undestandably don't have strings this fresh and don't sound their best.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

pattste said:


> This. Also, we all have our preferences and hear things differently. One guy's solid bass is another guy's boomy lows.
> 
> Nine years ago I fell in love with a Gibson Northern Jumbo acoustic, essentially a J-45 with different appointments and the love affair continues to this day. Master luthier Ren Ferguson brought a lot respectability to Gibson Montana during his tenure. I'm proud to own a guitar signed by him.
> 
> I find Gibson guitars to be extremely sensitive to the choice and condition of strings, much more so than other guitars. I've experimented a lot with strings and the best sounding ones that I've found are Gibson Masterbuilt Premium Phosphore Bronze. Unfortunately, they go dead in about two or three weeks. *The guitars in stores understandably don't have strings this fresh and don't sound their best.*


That is a very good point. Very few mention this when checking out acoustics. I'm surprised at how many are seriously looking for a great acoustic and pick them up and play them with never a thought about how old or new the strings are.


----------



## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> That is a very good point. Very few mention this when checking out acoustics. I'm surprised at how many are seriously looking for a great acoustic and pick them up and play them with never a thought about how old or new the strings are.


This is so true. I fell in love with the Martin D-18 at Burlington L&M. Many months later I happened to be in the store and tried it out again. If this had been the first time i had played it, I wouldn't have bought it even if I could afford it.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Guncho said:


> This is so true. I fell in love with the Martin D-18 at Burlington L&M. Many months later I happened to be in the store and tried it out again. If this had been the first time i had played it, I wouldn't have bought it even if I could afford it.


Wow, that is an eye-opener. There are just so many factors involved when testing acoustics; strings, humidity, different stores and setup are very important. When I hear comparisons of one acoustic over another done in a store, I usually take them with a grain of salt.


----------



## dale macnevin (Apr 9, 2017)

My Father, uncles and cousins all drove Harley Davidson motorcycles, played j 45 or j 50 acoustics and fender electrics. I'm almost 60 now and have kept that tradition. Sometimes tradition, dedication, culture and partnership with the instrument trumps logic, statistics, reviews, opinions etc.


----------

