# New roofs are not cheap



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Getting a bunch of quotes for a roof job. Way more than I was expecting. Hoping to do this once more in my lifetime.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

That day is coming here soon too. We have cedar shakes which I think are more expensive than anything to replace. They are over 30 years old now.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

We are looking for your run of the mill 30 year shingle and so far after 3 quotes I am in the $7000 plus range


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

On the bright side... in 30 more years we'll probably be dead.

:banana:


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## Intrepid (Oct 9, 2008)

Sneaky said:


> On the bright side... in 30 more years we'll probably be dead.
> 
> :banana:


That's the spirit. Always look on the bright side. Put a smile on my face. Thanks.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Sneaky said:


> On the bright side... in 30 more years we'll probably be dead.
> 
> :banana:


I am actually counting on it myself. Someone else can pay for the next one


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## Fader (Mar 10, 2009)

"They're rated under ideal conditions, so 30 year shingles will only last 20 years."
The roofer looked me dead in the eyes and said that.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Seven grand? Whoa.

Do you have multiple peaks? A complex roof? Steep pitch?
These usually up the price somewhat.

I had mine done around six years ago, 25 or 30 year shingles.
I think that it was around 1600 sq.ft., two flat sides and not a steep pitch. $2400 cash.

Cedar shakes, yikes! Boutiqe shingles. 8)

Where's Mike O?


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## dodgechargerfan (Mar 22, 2006)

I had this done this year.
7000 is about right but it depends on the size, of course.

I went with a contractor that I've dealt with in the past.

Since that first experience, which was great, they have certified to sell and install Certainteed.
There's a whole "minimum process" that they follow that, to me, made a lot of sense. (I've watched a lot of This Old House, Holmes on Homes, and Bryan Baumler. )

http://www.certainteed.com/resource/roofing/warranties


The clincher for me was when I asked about ice shield and the guy said, "We would do the entire roof because of the low slope. It's the only way to do it right."
I was so in line with that.
Interestingly, the roof didn't have any at all under the original shingles and the guys were actually upset. Probably because they ended up replacing more sheathing than that which was included in their quote.

You can search Certainteed's site for a contractor.

I used http://www.hambletsroofing.com/
They might cover your area.

I won't say they were cheap, but they were right in line with other quotes and I had a good experience with them previously.

Feel free to wipe the links if you think it's spammy. That wasn't my intent.
Good luck with the job, too.
It's fun.
These guys sent a big crew and got everything done in one day - before dinner time.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

dodgechargerfan said:


> I had this done this year.
> 7000 is about right but it depends on the size, of course.
> 
> I went with a contractor that I've dealt with in the past.
> ...


They were the first ones I brought in for quote. Top notch company no question about it but not cheap. They were over 8k for the roof alone and I need new eaves as well


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Do you remember the sqare footage dcf?

Yes, that's cool about the ice shield and them wanting to "do it right".

Have shingles gone up that much? Probably all along with the petroleum cost.

A crew of four came here and had it done in under seven hours.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

sulphur said:


> Seven grand? Whoa.
> 
> Do you have multiple peaks? A complex roof? Steep pitch?
> These usually up the price somewhat.
> ...


Mine is about the same size maybe a little bigger but does have several peaks and valleys with attached garage


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I had my eaves done also a couple of years ago.

A 46' or so straight run down one side, and a five foot notch on the entrance side.

It was around six-seven hundred for the seamless eaves,
and totalled out to around a grand, taxes in with the smart screen.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

No, a new roof is far from low cost. The condo I lived in previously had the roofs done. I think we got 25 year shingles. It didn't matter, they were dog eared in less than 5 and looked like sick crud. If I had a home, and the money (line of credit) I would look to doing something other than tar shingles. Nothing is made to really last more than 10 or 15 years from what I recall of being told.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Mine is about the same size maybe a little bigger but does have several peaks and valleys with attached garage


 
Then it sounds reasonable. A crew of 3 or four good guys, truck to haul the same amount of shingles away, $2k worth of tools and insurance can eat up a couple of thousand pretty quick. Add in 3k for materials and $1k for profit ...

Oh and that iceshield is great stuff. For amount of labour it takes to put it down is worth the extra cost. It's an extra precaution in icedamn areas. 

Also a lot of shingle problems are from bad ventilation in the house. It's funny you guys talking about 30 yr shingles only lasting about 20 yrs. The industry came along in the late 80's and bumped put the year rating and didn't change the shingle at all. Ten yr became 15 yrs etc etc and they did nothing to the shingle.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

shoretyus said:


> Then it sounds reasonable. A crew of 3 or four good guys, truck to haul the same amount of shingles away, $2k worth of tools and insurance can eat up a couple of thousand pretty quick. Add in 3k for materials and $1k for profit ...
> 
> Oh and that iceshield is great stuff. For amount of labour it takes to put it down is worth the extra cost. It's an extra precaution in icedamn areas.
> 
> Also a lot of shingle problems are from bad ventilation in the house. It's funny you guys talking about 30 yr shingles only lasting about 20 yrs. The industry came along in the late 80's and bumped put the year rating and didn't change the shingle at all. Ten yr became 15 yrs etc etc and they did nothing to the shingle.


So far all the quotes I have gotten included the ice shield


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

7k for a 1600 square foot roof is way too expensive unless as mentioned, it's steep or complex...or unless you're expecting them to work while there's still snow on the roof.

Material cost on a job like that would be around 2 grand, and it should be a one day job. I would charge about 5 grand for a job that size, and i'd be making about 1500$ profit after everything was said and done. It might be in your best interest to arrange purchase of the material and a garbage bin yourself and hire a small company to do the labour. Standard removal/installation rates for subcontractors are in the neighbourhood of 70$/100 square feet, which means you would be paying 1120$ for the install, 400ish for the bin, and 2000ish for the material. If you're looking to save even more money, cold hard cash often drops the price by 10% or so...at least on the labour end of things.

I would also strongly recommend buying the higher grade shingles. a house your size only needs about 50 bundles, and the price difference is about 5$ per bundle to upgrade from the standard shingles to the high quality shingles. for 250$ more you would be getting a 30 year roof instead of a 12 year roof.


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

GuitarsCanada said:


> We are looking for your run of the mill 30 year shingle and so far after 3 quotes I am in the $7000 plus range


That sounds bang on. Its good that you are getting a few estimates as there are a lot of so called experts that claim they can do it for much less. 
We went through this 3 years ago and hopefully wont have to do again.
Good luck.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

mike_oxbig said:


> 7k for a 1600 square foot roof is way too expensive unless as mentioned, it's steep or complex...or unless you're expecting them to work while there's still snow on the roof.
> 
> Material cost on a job like that would be around 2 grand, and it should be a one day job. I would charge about 5 grand for a job that size, and i'd be making about 1500$ profit after everything was said and done. It might be in your best interest to arrange purchase of the material and a garbage bin yourself and hire a small company to do the labour. Standard removal/installation rates for subcontractors are in the neighbourhood of 70$/100 square feet, which means you would be paying 1120$ for the install, 400ish for the bin, and 2000ish for the material. If you're looking to save even more money, cold hard cash often drops the price by 10% or so...at least on the labour end of things.
> 
> I would also strongly recommend buying the higher grade shingles. a house your size only needs about 50 bundles, and the price difference is about 5$ per bundle to upgrade from the standard shingles to the high quality shingles. for 250$ more you would be getting a 30 year roof instead of a 12 year roof.


How do you get someone to do that though, dont they want to buy the shingles themselves so that they can add 10% to each bundle. I don't mind going that route if I can get a experienced crew to do the work


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

> I would charge about 5 grand for a job that size


So are you heading to Thorold anytime soon? I am sure GC might trade for that 335 too


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

shoretyus said:


> So are you heading to Thorold anytime soon? I am sure GC might trade for that 335 too


I am open to that offer


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

GuitarsCanada said:


> How do you get someone to do that though, dont they want to buy the shingles themselves so that they can add 10% to each bundle. I don't mind going that route if I can get a experienced crew to do the work


You would have to find a local building supply store to deliver the material. Find an installation crew beforehand so the building store will deliver the shingles directly onto the roof. You should be able to find a ton of people through kijiji, nobody is busy or overly booked this time of year.

I would offer to do it myself, but by the time I drove a 5 man crew 8 hours to get there and paid for 2-3 days of room & board I would be one of those 7000$ quotes and i wouldn't be making much off of it.

What I can do, however, is send you a written quote that you can use as a bargaining chip with local companies. Send me your address so i can look it up on google street view and and your email.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Have you considered doing it your self? It's not rocket science, if you have the time. I did mine a couple of years ago for approx $1500, including disposal of the old shingles, some tools, a safety harness and some plywood sheets that needed to be replaced. The neighbours paid $3800 for the exact roof done professionally. For reference, our house has a footprint of about 1100 square feet and a shallow pitched roof (3.5:1).


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## deadear (Nov 24, 2011)

Expect to get 20 years tops out of the thirty year shingle. I just did mine and the 25 year shingle lasted 14. The life time shingle is the same shingle as the thirty but they just call them that to get the business. Look at the bundle when they go to install and it will say thirty.
My expierence is it is cut to the bone by time you buy and dispose of shingles and material. The crew might make a grand profit on the job and they have overhead.(vehicles,bookkeeper etc.). Make certain you keep a eye on them and get what you pay for. Several of my neighbours were not watching and ya they got a good price but stuff on the quote did not go on the house. ( felt etc.) One neighbour even got some of his old shingles used as starters. Another $100 in the contractors pocket.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Mine is getting close, but I'll likely do much of the work myself.

I want to replace the sheathing for the first four feet around the edges. I don't like heights but I'll likely cut my costs in half or better by using some sweat equity. 

Roofing is not rocket science by any stretch.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

There's a whole book full of warranty information on the shingles. The best analogy I can think of off hand is comparing it to an amplifier - Sure, the amp says it's a 100 watt amp, but that's peak power, not RMS. 

It is also true that they've upped the warranties upping the shingles...that was a big fiasco last year that cost me a couple contracts. I had been giving quotes with 40 year shingles, and IKO decided that their 30, 40 and 50 year shingles will now all be "lifetime warrantied" shingles. The building supply store ran out of the 40 year shingles and sent me 30 year shingles for the same price. I was pissed, the home owner was pissed, and the building supply store said their hands were tied because according to their supplier the shingles were to be considered the same as 40 and 50 year, which makes no sense whatsoever because the 30 year shingles are noticeably thinner than the 50 year shingles. For their new, consolidated line of "lifetime" shingles, IKO used the 30 year specifications, and upped the price. Basically you're getting a 30 year shingle that will last 20 years that's been warrantied for "life". I'm not sure how they plan on honoring the inevitable bulk of warranty claims.

Indeed roofing isn't rocket science, and in fact the directions are printed on every single bundle, but i've seen a lot of people do it wrong all the same. If your house was a simple rectangle gable roof i would say doing it yourself would be a relatively easy task, but with all the valleys and hips and ridges on your house it would be a better idea to pay someone experienced to do it. Your 7000$ roof is protecting your 250k house, it's not something you want to take chances with.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

First trip up that ladder with a bundle of 30 yr shingles can change anyones mind. To add to mike's comments as well. With lots of valleys there is lots of cuts and sealing to be done by whom ever is doing the roof. This can be slow even for a pro. As well the slower the work, the longer the roof deck is exposed.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

mike_oxbig said:


> There's a whole book full of warranty information on the shingles. The best analogy I can think of off hand is comparing it to an amplifier - Sure, the amp says it's a 100 watt amp, but that's peak power, not RMS.
> 
> It is also true that they've upped the warranties upping the shingles...that was a big fiasco last year that cost me a couple contracts. I had been giving quotes with 40 year shingles, and IKO decided that their 30, 40 and 50 year shingles will now all be "lifetime warrantied" shingles. The building supply store ran out of the 40 year shingles and sent me 30 year shingles for the same price. I was pissed, the home owner was pissed, and the building supply store said their hands were tied because according to their supplier the shingles were to be considered the same as 40 and 50 year, which makes no sense whatsoever because the 30 year shingles are noticeably thinner than the 50 year shingles. For their new, consolidated line of "lifetime" shingles, IKO used the 30 year specifications, and upped the price. Basically you're getting a 30 year shingle that will last 20 years that's been warrantied for "life". I'm not sure how they plan on honoring the inevitable bulk of warranty claims.
> 
> Indeed roofing isn't rocket science, and in fact the directions are printed on every single bundle, but i've seen a lot of people do it wrong all the same. If your house was a simple rectangle gable roof i would say doing it yourself would be a relatively easy task, but with all the valleys and hips and ridges on your house it would be a better idea to pay someone experienced to do it. Your 7000$ roof is protecting your 250k house, it's not something you want to take chances with.


I agree 100% i am not doing this myself. I have done lots of sheds etc in the past. Fairly straight forward and quick. This place of mine has way to many cuts and corners and valleys. First of i would be up there for a month. Secondly i would screw it up

The one guy i was talking to said you basically have to go by weight now since they made them all lifetime


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## geezer (Apr 30, 2008)

I did mine myself a couple of years ago. We decided on metal roofing...it was really fast to put on and sheds the snow way better than our old asphalt shingle roof.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

shoretyus said:


> Also a lot of shingle problems are from bad ventilation in the house. It's funny you guys talking about 30 yr shingles only lasting about 20 yrs. The industry came along in the late 80's and bumped put the year rating and didn't change the shingle at all. Ten yr became 15 yrs etc etc and they did nothing to the shingle.


This ............. and the fact that they don't flash right ..... or remove the plastic over the tar strip ...................... cause 10 years from now you won't be able to find them.

Go reputable - as much as cheaper sounds better.


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## deadear (Nov 24, 2011)

shoretyus said:


> First trip up that ladder with a bundle of 30 yr shingles can change anyones mind. To add to mike's comments as well. With lots of valleys there is lots of cuts and sealing to be done by whom ever is doing the roof. This can be slow even for a pro. As well the slower the work, the longer the roof deck is exposed.


 You got that right got to be built for that job. I repaired mine where it was blown off and it was a 8/12 pitch (approx 40 degree angle) . I put three bundles on the bad area. I had no roof jacks or boards . The fun started when you start striping the old shingles and you are sliding around on the marbles two stories plus the roof up. Too steep for me working by myself so when the insurance came good I hired the pros. I have done split levels and bungalows and garages but when it gets steep forget it if you are not set up with the proper tools. 

It will be a growth industry because all the new homes are too steep for the do it your self guy.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

geezer said:


> I did mine myself a couple of years ago. We decided on metal roofing...it was really fast to put on and sheds the snow way better than our old asphalt shingle roof.


That was big around here in the 80's but waned because the snow slides can be a problem. Plus the paint started coming off.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Getting a bunch of quotes for a roof job. Way more than I was expecting. Hoping to do this once more in my lifetime.


I no longer need to worry about my roof shingles. 

*I PAINTED IT!!!*










See my pictures and a video here (testimonials #2):
http://www.roof-it.ca/#!__test-2

No hammers, no nails, no back-breaking 'do it myself', no noisey crew and 3 day job while never knowing if I am getting ripped off or not. Just paint it on with a roller. Now, it isn't just ordinary paint...I used $2000 worth of product but it was easy to apply and the benefits are excellent - including the light colour that I picked being very reflective of the sun and therefor causing a huge decrease in the thermal heating that takes place in the attic which has a major effect on my air conditioning costs.


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## deadear (Nov 24, 2011)

smorgdonkey that roof would be $3500 tops with thirty year shingles. To each their own.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

did you seriously cover your entire roof with that? it will buy you another 5 years under ideal conditions but when you go to redo it properly you'll be paying 2-3x as much for the removal and dump fees, plus your plywood is likely to start bowing in between trusses because of the added weight. I'm not saying this because i'm against DIYers, because i'm not...but if it were a good idea everyone would be doing it. Hell i'd be doing it after installing a brand new roof. As far as prolonging the life of an old roof, I could see it being worthwhile if the price was right, but for 2 grand you've created a big future headache and you haven't really saved much money.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

*@mike_oxbig.....What are your opinions re: metal roofing?*

Also, just for interest, I was in southern Norway this summer and most of their roofing was clay tiles.
This really surprised me, given that their climate (especially their winters) is similar to ours.

Cheers

Dave


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

mike_oxbig said:


> did you seriously cover your entire roof with that? it will buy you another 5 years under ideal conditions but when you go to redo it properly you'll be paying 2-3x as much for the removal and dump fees, plus your plywood is likely to start bowing in between trusses because of the added weight. I'm not saying this because i'm against DIYers, because i'm not...but if it were a good idea everyone would be doing it. Hell i'd be doing it after installing a brand new roof. As far as prolonging the life of an old roof, I could see it being worthwhile if the price was right, but for 2 grand you've created a big future headache and you haven't really saved much money.


Thanks to Mike here I have found an experienced, insured roofing crew to do the job here. I am buying all the materials myself and it is now looking to be around 5k tops or less to get this done. A minimum of $2100 cheaper then the best quote I got.

I would like info on venting from anyone. Is it more the better type of thing or is there a limit? I was told I am under vented


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Check that your eaves/soffits are clear of insulation. Turbines work but they do fail. I have to climb up on my absent neighbours every once in awhile because I can't stand the noise. 


http://www.iwaterproofing.ca/index_files/roofvent.htm


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

I'm not a big fan of metal roofs, because of the cost and the aesthetics. My personal opinion is that they're ugly to look at. That being said there is a metal shingle available that is nicer on the eyes, but the price of material is enough to turn most people away. it is a legitimate "lifetime" roof, but will require maintenance over the course of its life. I did a few tile roofs out west in BC before I moved to ottawa, but I haven't seen them done here. Visually they're my favourite roof to look at, but price-wise it's out of most peoples budget.

As far as ventilation goes it's better to have a too much than not enough, but you don't want way too much either. You're also better off getting the big metal vents than the small plastic ones, especially if you get snow buildup on your roof or your yard is home to squirrels and raccoons. 

Glad I was able to help you save some money....just don't tell people in ottawa about it! haha


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I am just going to go with the standard galvanized roof vents but add two of them to the existing


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

mike_oxbig said:


> did you seriously cover your entire roof with that? it will buy you another 5 years under ideal conditions but when you go to redo it properly you'll be paying 2-3x as much for the removal and dump fees, plus your plywood is likely to start bowing in between trusses because of the added weight. I'm not saying this because i'm against DIYers, because i'm not...but if it were a good idea everyone would be doing it. Hell i'd be doing it after installing a brand new roof. As far as prolonging the life of an old roof, I could see it being worthwhile if the price was right, but for 2 grand you've created a big future headache and you haven't really saved much money.


Yes, I covered my entire roof with it. There is perhaps 240 pounds of added weight over the entire roof. If you think 240 pounds more weight is a big headache in the future...I don't know what you are thinking about. It isn't enough to bow roofing material and it isn't enough to cause much extra expense at a dump BUT, I am pretty sure that this roof isn't going to the dump any time soon. 

I don't know how much you read about the product but the shingles on my roof had lost most of their pebble. There wasn't much warp from heat but that was probably going to develop a lot over the summer that I applied the coating. In the 19 months that I have had it on, it has not deteriorated at all so, I would be very surprised if this roof needs anything for 15 years.

I am comfortable with my decision...saved me big money, big trouble (or both) and it looks great (not quite as good as an 'ugly' metal roof). 



deadear said:


> smorgdonkey that roof would be $3500 tops with thirty year shingles. To each their own.


This roof would be $4000-$5000 easy here in HRM.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Thanks to Mike here I have found an experienced, insured roofing crew to do the job here. I am buying all the materials myself and it is now looking to be around 5k tops or less to get this done. A minimum of $2100 cheaper then the best quote I got.I would like info on venting from anyone. Is it more the better type of thing or is there a limit? I was told I am under vented



Venting is fine as long as it doesn't become a personal attack.


I know, I know.

Everything's a joke to me.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I would like info on venting from anyone. Is it more the better type of thing or is there a limit? I was told I am under vented


 http://xrehab.com/roof/attic_vent2.htm

The quick answer is that for every 300 sq ft of attic space that you have, you require 1 sq ft of ventilation. Most attics are under ventilated and that is what causes roof shingles to bake quicker than they are supposed to and for a roof with 25 year shingles to last 12 years. The heat build up in an underventilated attic would surprise most people and having it so hot inside beneath the roof, along with the sun beating on the roof the shingles are getting baked with heat on both sides.

My roof (when it was plain shingles) was so hot on a hot sunny day that when I was getting up on top of it, I could really feel the heat when I'd put my hands on it. I couldn't touch it for longer than about 5 seconds on those days - there is real asphalt there (think 'hot tar'). Now that my roof has the light coloured product on it, I can put my hands on it as long as I want on a hot sunny day with no discomfort. This has also caused a dramatic shift in my attic temperature so that my air conditioning costs are very low. The hot air in the attic can cause the living space to heat up even though heat rises. 

Back to venting...most people go for the ridge vent these days and I see that in the US (in the really hot places) they are going with thermostat controlled electric fans venting the attics to really move the hot air.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

smorgdonkey said:


> http://xrehab.com/roof/attic_vent2.htm
> 
> The quick answer is that for every 300 sq ft of attic space that you have, you require 1 sq ft of ventilation. Most attics are under ventilated and that is what causes roof shingles to bake quicker than they are supposed to and for a roof with 25 year shingles to last 12 years. The heat build up in an underventilated attic would surprise most people and having it so hot inside beneath the roof, along with the sun beating on the roof the shingles are getting baked with heat on both sides.
> 
> ...


Appreciate the info. I am going to add a few vents. I must say though that we have been lucky with the current roof. It is about 33 years old and its ready for replacement for sure but we have never lost a shingle, never had a leak and the shingles themselves don't even really look that bad, just tired and worn out


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

I'd say that you did well for being under-ventilated then. It is the biggest factor in causing fast shingle death. When my father got his roof done the guys added ridge venting for free. So, with you buying the materials, perhaps if you bought the ridge venting the guys who are doing the work will do it for little or no extra charge. 

I can't say...I know that I had to cut a little away from my roof vent to install the ridge venting. Perhaps mike can offer some info on that as it seems to be his field(?).


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## deadear (Nov 24, 2011)

33 years for shingles lasting is amazing I would say. My parents did theirs twice in 33 years and I only got 15 out of the ones I just replaced. Like others have said go with metal vents to keep them criters out. You are probably going to be into some plywood also so you might want to get that spelled out.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

deadear said:


> 33 years for shingles lasting is amazing I would say. My parents did theirs twice in 33 years and I only got 15 out of the ones I just replaced. Like others have said go with metal vents to keep them criters out. You are probably going to be into some plywood also so you might want to get that spelled out.


I can only hope to be so lucky this time around. Won't count on it. But I do remember that the shingles that went on their were a very good quality and weight. So maybe that extra back then really did pay off


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

smorgdonkey said:


> Yes, I covered my entire roof with it. There is perhaps 240 pounds of added weight over the entire roof.


It must not be the same product i've had the displeasure of removing then, but in light of this statement i'm doubting its worth even more. When speaking in terms of longevity the general rule of thumb is that thicker and heavier lasts longer. Do you know what really kills shingles? it's not rain, snow or ice, it's heat. heat from above and heat from below. the thicker the shingle the longer it takes for it to dry out and become brittle and break. If you're telling me you covered your entire roof with some kind of miracle sealant that weighs as much as 4 bundles of shingles and you expect it to last as long as a newly shingled roof, you should probably buy shares in this company. My prediction is that within 5 years it will dry out and crack, letting water pool underneath it and literally causing potholes to form.

For your sake I hope i'm wrong. Please let me know when it needs replacing, and if it caused you any extra grief, as i've never had any first hand experience with this kind of thing.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

smorg, I can understand that you're trying to share your experience and help, but you're giving wrong and bad advice. Ventilation requirements have very little to do with the size of the vent hole versus the size of the attic. it's determined by the type of vent versus the size of the attic. Standard plastic mushroom vents are good for about 400 square feet of attic space. the large metal chimney stack type vents are applied to the same size opening but will ventilate 1200 square feet. to get the same ventilation with a ridge vent you would need something like 15 linear feet. The reason you don't see as many ridge vents in our climate is because they can get smothered by snow. This is the only type of vent that should be used unless you're venting a very small space:

http://www.ventilation-maximum.com/English/product-model301.html


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

mike_oxbig said:


> Please let me know when it needs replacing, and if it caused you any extra grief, as i've never had any first hand experience with this kind of thing.


They have done a barrage of tests on this product and they have been around since 1990 - I expect that they have been developing the product for longer but I don't know that. I spilled a little on my deck and tried to sand it odff with an electric sander with 80 grit paper on it. It would not degrade this stuff at all. I had to get it off of the deck with a chisel.



mike_oxbig said:


> Do you know what really kills shingles? it's not rain, snow or ice, it's heat. heat from above and heat from below.


Yes, I know...I have blabbed on about it quite a bit!! HA! That's the thing about this stuff - UV resistant and with the light colour I got...it is unreal. I normally run my air conditioner for about an hour on the hot days and turn it off because it will freeze me out of the house if I leave it on. Before I had this roof coating on, I had that thermal thing going on that made my house heat up like mad during the hot sunny days. 

As for the ROOFIT product, I suggest that you order the free sample from them and put it on a shingle. That way you can look at it yourself as the years pass. My guess is that it will be on that shingle and that shingle will be in great shape for a long time.

As to myself and my knowledge about this, it comes from being an obsessive researcher that would make a legal team puke. I had my house assessed for energy efficiency and it scored a 48. I had 18 months to do improvements on it and when they re-tested the house they said that it was in the top 5% of homes its age in the entire country for energy efficiency. I did the roof after that and it made the house even more energy efficient due to the colour countering that thermal thing.

My power bills for the past 12 months total $1205. 

That includes my entire electrical consumption including my *main heat source* and all of my hot water. I also have to include 100 liters of furnace oil as well as the oil furnace is my back up heat source. I have the temperature at 19 degrees C all of the time although I do bump it to 20 once in a while.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

mike_oxbig said:


> smorg, I can understand that you're trying to share your experience and help, but you're giving wrong and bad advice. Ventilation requirements have very little to do with the size of the vent hole versus the size of the attic. it's determined by the type of vent versus the size of the attic. Standard plastic mushroom vents are good for about 400 square feet of attic space. the large metal chimney stack type vents are applied to the same size opening but will ventilate 1200 square feet. to get the same ventilation with a ridge vent you would need something like 15 linear feet. The reason you don't see as many ridge vents in our climate is because they can get smothered by snow. This is the only type of vent that should be used unless you're venting a very small space:
> 
> http://www.ventilation-maximum.com/English/product-model301.html


Whats the dealio here Mike? I dont think I have ever even seen a vent like that. I have these







, as well as most of the homes around my place. Should I be trying to find these ones you are showing here?


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

mike_oxbig said:


> smorg, I can understand that you're trying to share your experience and help, but you're giving wrong and bad advice.


Holy smokes...'wrong' and 'bad'. I don't think that there was a whole lot of chance that he was just going to run out and do exactly what I told him to do...it's just conversation.

Perhaps I should edit my post to say "sorry sir, I cannot discuss ventilation here".



mike_oxbig said:


> to get the same ventilation with a ridge vent you would need something like 15 linear feet. The reason you don't see as many ridge vents in our climate is because they can get smothered by snow.


I don't typically deal with the amount of snow that Ontario deals with. I have 2 gable vents and I added 16 linear feet of ridge venting.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Whats the dealio here Mike? I dont think I have ever even seen a vent like that. I have these
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those are common only because they're cheap. They cost 20$ as opposed to the maxi vents which cost 100$. You can find the vents i posted at home depot, or any other building supply store. Many builders and contractors will still quote the cheap vents because it keeps their price down, but it's a serious downgrade.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

smorgdonkey said:


> Holy smokes...'wrong' and 'bad'. I don't think that there was a whole lot of chance that he was just going to run out and do exactly what I told him to do...it's just conversation.
> 
> Perhaps I should edit my post to say "sorry sir, I cannot discuss ventilation here".
> 
> ...


I would like to read up more on that material that you used. I will still go with the traditional shingles but it sounds interesting


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

mike_oxbig said:


> Those are common only because they're cheap. They cost 20$ as opposed to the maxi vents which cost 100$. You can find the vents i posted at home depot, or any other building supply store. Many builders and contractors will still quote the cheap vents because it keeps their price down, but it's a serious downgrade.


I will pick at least a few of those up then


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I would like to read up more on that material that you used. I will still go with the traditional shingles but it sounds interesting


Indeed...it is a bit of a leap for people because your neighbour doesn't have it. Your neighbour doesn't have it because Home Depot or any other building supply place isn't about to start stocking it - *think about the repeat shingle sales and nails and tar paper.* It isn't going to happen. Not to mention, asphalt is linked to the petroleum industry. Shingles get ripped off well before their time and get replaced with what? - the same thing that didn't last as long as it should have in the first place. *Though you did awesome with your current shingles!* It is difficult to argue with that sort of success.

Anyway, you could always order the free sample and apply it to a shingle on your shed or something. Check it out in 10 years...


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

smorgdonkey said:


> Holy smokes...'wrong' and 'bad'. I don't think that there was a whole lot of chance that he was just going to run out and do exactly what I told him to do...it's just conversation.
> 
> Perhaps I should edit my post to say "sorry sir, I cannot discuss ventilation here".
> 
> ...


It's not just conversation when you're presenting it as fact. feel free to discuss ventilation, or spray paint roofing solutions, or whatever else you like, i'm always happy to shoot the shit. but for the sake of GC getting the best quality for the best price it would be in his best interest to take the advice from someone experienced in the field who also shares his climate. 

I'm not trying to argue or turn this into an "i know more than you" pissing contest, but if helping him get the best products means that I have to shoot down something you're recommending then it's what i'll do.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

mike_oxbig said:


> It's not just conversation when you're presenting it as fact. feel free to discuss ventilation, or spray paint roofing solutions, or whatever else you like, i'm always happy to shoot the shit. but for the sake of GC getting the best quality for the best price it would be in his best interest to take the advice from someone experienced in the field who also shares his climate.
> 
> I'm not trying to argue or turn this into an "i know more than you" pissing contest, but if helping him get the best products means that I have to shoot down something you're recommending then it's what i'll do.


Not sure he ever actually recommended it. It is pretty wild. I have never seen it in use anywhere around here. I would have to know a lot more people and see it after 10-12 years though to take a chance on it. Thats just me. Shingles have been used on homes for as long as they have because they work. They won't last forever, but what does? I do think though if you go with a thicker shingle you will get more life out of the roof. I need to address this venting issue for sure and we will get that done on this new roof. After that I am hoping I am good for at least 20 years.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

smorgdonkey said:


> Indeed...it is a bit of a leap for people because your neighbour doesn't have it. Your neighbour doesn't have it because Home Depot or any other building supply place isn't about to start stocking it - *think about the repeat shingle sales and nails and tar paper.* It isn't going to happen. Not to mention, asphalt is linked to the petroleum industry. Shingles get ripped off well before their time and get replaced with what? - the same thing that didn't last as long as it should have in the first place. *Though you did awesome with your current shingles!* It is difficult to argue with that sort of success.
> 
> Anyway, you could always order the free sample and apply it to a shingle on your shed or something. Check it out in 10 years...


Actually home depot does sell many types of liquid shingle sealants, as well as ridge vents, plastic vents, OSB sheathing, and a whole bunch of other cheap shit that they wouldn't dare send to one of their installation crews to install with a warranty. I do installs for home depot. there's a very clear difference between quick fixes, cheap parts, and professional grade products.

And seriously? people use shingles because of a petroleum industry controlled conspiracy linked to the sale of nails and tar paper? they're tricking us into disposing of the shingles before they're completely shot? it has nothing to do with shingles being the cheapest way to roof your house? 

the obvious answers are: people generally want to spend as little money as possible, which is why we use shingles instead of the expensive but permanent metal or rubber products. it postpones the issue until it will be someone else's problem. As far as replacing the shingles before they're completely shot, that's just common sense. It's called preventative maintenance, the same reason you change your oil before your engine seizes up.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

shoretyus said:


> Check that your eaves/soffits are clear of insulation. Turbines work but they do fail. I have to climb up on my absent neighbours every once in awhile because I can't stand the noise.


The other problem with turbines is that they don't spin when you need them most - on those suffocatingly hot, humid days with no hint of a breeze.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

I used to deliver shingles to homes. You might want to ask a local Iko distributor for some roofing co. names. Get some quotes and ask for a cash quote as well.
Had my roof done in Sept. Bought my own shingles (60 bundles - Cambridge 30) $21 per, and $1800 cash to install and dispose of the garbage. Roof is around 1600 Sq ft.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Ok...there are all kinds of things that I could comment on - I am just going to bypass it and hit this one:


mike_oxbig said:


> And seriously? people use shingles because of a petroleum industry controlled conspiracy linked to the sale of nails and tar paper? they're tricking us into disposing of the shingles before they're completely shot? it has nothing to do with shingles being the cheapest way to roof your house?


Where did I say anything about a conspiracy? Where? I merely mentioned that it is *linked to the petroleum industry* because it is a petroleum product.

The longer this thread goes on, the longer trhat you make yourself look like someone trying to protect a racket. Why would I say such a thing?
-you denounce a product that you know nothing about
-you denouce metal roofing because it is ugly and requires maintenance (yeah, that cleaning and painting after 20 years is WAY worse than having a bunch of dudes show up hammering and banging for 2 or 3 days)
-you call someone (me) out who offered up, as a rule of thumb the industry accepted information on venting an attic http://www.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/en/co/maho/gemare/gemare_001.cfm (about 3/4 down the page)
-then you further call out that person (yes, me again) with what looks like an attemt to portray them (damn...me again) as some sort of zealot who is laying out a conspiracy theory by saying that I said something that I never said. 

I think it actually makes you look very unprofessional and it definitely falls in the category of rude and a few other negative things...not that I mind that, it's on you anyway.

Look - I get it. You dislike the product that I used because if it was already widely used people would be getting a long lasting product that costs less than traditional roofing and you would have less available work. That is no reason to conduct yourself the way that you have and it fits firmly in the "he doth protest too much" category. This is not a request for an apology in any way, I am not one of those people who gets feelings hurt easily - I am just laying it out there so you can perhaps reflect on the way you have handled this. 

Imagine if you would have said this about my post: "That's different. I may have run into that stuff before. Is that the really heavy stuff that's hard to tear off?" 

Oh well, live and learn or live and don't learn. It's all up to the individual.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Yes, I thought that a ridge vent was the way to go.
Of course, I don't know for sure and it has been mentioned about the weather factor in your region.

One thing to note is that to make sure that the vents aren't just cross ventilating,
meaning, wind in one and out the other. Yes, make sure that soffits are clear from insulation.

I agree with Mike that a few extra bucks initially, can save a bundle down the road.

Really though, any vent system, unless mechanically run, won't perform on a dead calm day.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

Actually smorg your implication of society being pressured into using shingles so we can look like our neighbours was fairly clear. I suppose society is also being pressured into using the low octane gas? Are we being pressured into shopping at ikea? I'll say again it has nothing to do with society, and everything to do with money. If the roles were reversed and the asphalt shingles cost 5x more than metal shingles, everyone would be using metal shingles.

I didn't denounce metal roofing, I said in my personal opinion it's an ugly thing to look at. I did go on to mention that there are more attractive metal shingles which are relatively new to the market, but it's hard to find someone to spend 40 grand on a roof when they can use asphalt shingles for 6 grand.

I did and do denounce your magic paint that I know nothing about, because it's been around for 30 years and I've never heard of it. If it was reliable, something that lightweight and effective would have caught on like wildfire. Do you think I would handle several tonnes of shingles every job if there was a reliable alternative?

As for the professional bit...that's a joke. For starters i'm a construction worker, secondly i'm a roofer, thirdly i'm a construction working roofer who will make no money off of respecting your consistently misinformed opinion. As far as the industry standards go, I've actually put up with you in a much more polite manner than most others would have. To you, I might be coming across as a petroleum puppet, but you're coming across as a gullible conspiracy theorist who tries to press his unfounded beliefs on others. 

I'm done here, there's really nothing to argue about. Good luck with your 2000$ paint job, i sincerely do hope it doesn't have the same consequences as the similar products i've seen used. Seriously though...feel free to rub it in my face if it does last longer than 5 years. I'm still genuinely curious as to its longevity.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

mike_oxbig said:


> i'm a construction working roofer who will make no money off of respecting your consistently misinformed opinion.


Wow. I'm almost inclined to ask which part of my 'opinion' is consistently misinformed but with the shit you are fabricating, there really is no point. It is also very telling that you don't 'respect' anything that you don't make money at. Cool and admirable.

You have lots to say but ignore the important part:


smorgdonkey said:


> Imagine if you would have said this about my post: "That's different. I may have run into that stuff before. Is that the really heavy stuff that's hard to tear off?"


You're pretty closed-minded mike. That's all that I am going to assume and judge without evidence. I think I am entitled to that one thing considering all of the things that you have assumed and judged without evidence.


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## deadear (Nov 24, 2011)

Another great thread gone for a dump.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

deadear said:


> Another great thread gone for a dump.


Yes, well...it didn't have to go that way but it seems like mike took it as a personal mission to shoot me down regardless of whether I was talking about something that he didn't know anything about or if I was just quoting widely accepted information. It got ridiculous when he ridiculed me for things that I didn't even do/say. I was starting to think that he was tubetwang.

Some people like to fight I suppose. 

Hey, at least he hooked up the thread starter with some workers to do some work for him.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Hey Scott, I got a line on some Chinese import shingles.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

sulphur said:


> Hey Scott, I got a line on some Chinese import shingles.


Are they pink?


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

this is getting a little ridiculous. My hands on experience has led me to conclusions that won't be changed by speculation, and that makes me close minded? I'm actually quite open minded, if i had any doubts about being right I would fully admit it. Ask your doctor for a band aid to fix a broken bone, when he laughs at you is it because he's close minded? I don't know why you're taking personal insult to me pointing out the faults in your recommendations, that just screams insecurity. If ANYONE is close minded it's you for refusing to learn from my experience. I do this for a living, you read about it on the internet. But go ahead and find out on your own. I'm just a rude money hungry petroleum racketeering social sheep who dared oppose your opinion, what do i know anyways.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Lets all try to get along friends. I personally appreciated all the help in this thread. Going to save me some money and I learned a few things. I don't know much about the "painted" roofs so I can't speak on it either way. But to each his own I say. I am looking forward to getting this job on my roof done and moving on to the next project, which there always seems to be a steady stream of


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

mike_oxbig said:


> this is getting a little ridiculous. My hands on experience has led me to conclusions that won't be changed by speculation, and that makes me close minded? I'm actually quite open minded, if i had any doubts about being right I would fully admit it. Ask your doctor for a band aid to fix a broken bone, when he laughs at you is it because he's close minded? I don't know why you're taking personal insult to me pointing out the faults in your recommendations, that just screams insecurity. If ANYONE is close minded it's you for refusing to learn from my experience. I do this for a living, you read about it on the internet. But go ahead and find out on your own. I'm just a rude money hungry petroleum racketeering social sheep who dared oppose your opinion, what do i know anyways.


Listen to this guy, he knows what he's talking about... speaking from 10 years of doing the same back breaking hard work.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

mike_oxbig said:


> this is getting a little ridiculous. My hands on experience has led me to conclusions that won't be changed by speculation, and that makes me close minded? I'm actually quite open minded, if i had any doubts about being right I would fully admit it. Ask your doctor for a band aid to fix a broken bone, when he laughs at you is it because he's close minded? I don't know why you're taking personal insult to me pointing out the faults in your recommendations, that just screams insecurity. If ANYONE is close minded it's you for refusing to learn from my experience. I do this for a living, you read about it on the internet. But go ahead and find out on your own. I'm just a rude money hungry petroleum racketeering social sheep who dared oppose your opinion, what do i know anyways.


Once again mike...you don't have experience with the product that I used yet you trashed it. THAT is closed-minded. But you have NO DOUBTS that you are right? 

I gave a couple of basic starting guidelines about attic ventilation and posted a link to what the Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation says about attic ventilation and you said that I was giving wrong and bad advice. At no time did I say this is the only way to do it. I posted starting information which everyone should go over before they get into the more technical research/information. *He asked for information.*

I'm not taking personal insults about anything - I stated it as it is. You put words in my posts that aren't there. 

When I said that people don't have the product, you automatically jumped to the wrong conclusion.
When I stated that it was a petroleum product, you jumped to the wrong conclusion.
The only thing that I have stated is that I used this product and I think it will last a long time yet you are saying that I am somehow trying to undermine your experience?

Did you miss where I actually suggested that you were the one who would know?


smorgdonkey said:


> I'd say that you did well for being under-ventilated then. It is the biggest factor in causing fast shingle death. When my father got his roof done the guys added ridge venting for free. So, with you buying the materials, perhaps if you bought the ridge venting the guys who are doing the work will do it for little or no extra charge.
> 
> I can't say...I know that I had to cut a little away from my roof vent to install the ridge venting. Perhaps mike can offer some info on that as it seems to be his field(?).


If you can read this thread over (the interactions between you and I) and not be embarrassed then you have plenty of work to do. But then, for someone who hasn't "any doubts about being right" I'm sure that you won't see that either.


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

smorgdonkey said:


> Once again mike...you don't have experience with the product that I used yet you trashed it. THAT is closed-minded. But you have NO DOUBTS that you are right?
> 
> I gave a couple of basic starting guidelines about attic ventilation and posted a link to what the Canadian Mortgage and Housing Corporation says about attic ventilation and you said that I was giving wrong and bad advice. At no time did I say this is the only way to do it. I posted starting information which everyone should go over before they get into the more technical research/information. *He asked for information.*
> 
> ...


Hands on experience trumps wishful internet info every time. He's handled it quite well if I do say so myself.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Morkolo said:


> Hands on experience trumps wishful internet info every time.


Of course.



Morkolo said:


> He's handled it quite well if I do say so myself.


Well, he disputed a product that he knows nothing about and then he accused me of asaying things that I didn't say. So...show me where I said he was wrong and show me where I said that I was right aside from the one product that he has never used.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

If i say "you win" will you shut up? you win!


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

smorgdonkey said:


> Of course.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, he disputed a product that he knows nothing about and then he accused me of asaying things that I didn't say. So...show me where I said he was wrong and show me where I said that I was right aside from the one product that he has never used.


I know about those products and have worked on roofs that used them and there's no real nice way to say you wasted your time and money on that stuff. So count me as on mike_oxbig's side because there's not way I'd be putting my name on that crap.


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