# When Buying A New Acoustic You Should.........



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

When buying a new acoustic should you go to as many music stores as possible and try as many models as possible until you get the one that sounds right to you? That may be the advice many of us give but MacKenzie and Marr, an acoustic company in Quebec says this about that.



> We speak with players who swear the only way to make an educated buying decision is to spend time in stores playing a variety of different guitars. There's certainly something to be said for comparison shopping but in test after test we found that after playing two or three guitars most players lost all perspective - forgetting how some felt or sounded and confusing features of others. Greater choice in every case leads to greater confusion.


With our human imperfections, what they say makes sense to me.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

You don't think it was self serving of them to say so? Part of their marketing speil maybe?


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

I know there will be many opinions both ways on this. I for one agree with their results the more I try the more I lose sight of the individual characteristics of the individual guitars. I'll try two or three then take a break go look at something else and think a little on what I have just seen and heard. Then if I haven't found what I like I'll try a couple more.


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## Intrepid (Oct 9, 2008)

Don't MacKenzie and Marr sell acoustics made in one of the Pac Rim countries and sell them only online? A very self serving study.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I would say try before you buy, always. I always recommend trying lots of them too. When I bought my 12 string, it was the first one I picked up....lol. Had tried a few that friends have owned though.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Sounds either like communism or that a quality acoustic could be bought from what's available at Costco.


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

nkjanssen said:


> So, having less information when making a purchase decision is better because having more information would just confuse you?
> 
> I don't buy it.


See! You've obviously thought too much about this. 

It's actually true that greater choice leads to greater confusion, which in this context means people putting off their purchases. I can't remember the scope of the studies around this, but I suspect that this is truer of impulse purchases than big ticket items that you research over time.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

keto said:


> You don't think it was self serving of them to say so? Part of their marketing speil maybe?


While it is most likely part of the speil, I believe what they say is true. There is no way a person, no matter how experienced he is can properly compare different guitars in different stores at different times. The only way is to have them all at the same location at the same time and all with new strings with similar set ups. This simply can't be done when going from store to store.

To be valid, you also need to do the blindfold test so no previous prejudices obscure the decision.

When it is done over weeks or months, it makes it even more difficult to remember what a certain guitar played like.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

This reminds me of the blindfold test we tried to perform on new production tubes and NOS, it didn't happen so I still have a bottle of Scotch I need to give someone. Steadly, if you can pick out the guitar below, blindfolded, out of a line up of Yamaha's and Nova's that bottle is yours.

BTW, I tried this one but I couldn't compare how terrible it was because Costco only carries the one line.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

nkjanssen said:


> I take it you never make a subjective decision about anything without conducting a controlled experiment? You could never determine that you prefer, say, pepperoni pizza to ham & pineapple unless you have tried every pizza in town all at the same time in a double-blind experiment? Would you not test drive a car before buying it on the basis that the test drive would just obscure your decision?


You are not talking apples and apples but apples and steak. 

However, I did try to do the blindfold thing when trying out my last car but the salesman caught me and yanked me out of the driver's seat before I could get my foot on the gas pedal. :sEm_oops::smile-new:


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

nkjanssen said:


> I'm fully willing to admit that "non-scientific" guitar testing could result in thinking a guitar is a dud when it actually isn't - if it's not set up properly, wrong strings, etc. But if I find a guitar that plays and sounds amazing, then it's an amazing guitar. Full stop. It will _not_ turn into a bad guitar when I take it out of the shop.


I agree with your statement above. However, that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about *comparison*, not determining if a guitar was good, very good or a piece of garbage. If you found a guitar you really found was very good, it likely is, as you stated above. But if you want to get the very best one for your budget, the only way to be sure is by doing the blind test in a scientific manner. I think we both agree on this. Correct?


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I enjoy trying out several guitars if I can--but over time is usually fine.
It can also be helpful to have someone with you.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

i think that's a load of crap. something as particular as an acoustic guitar isn't something you buy without knowing what you're getting into. it's not like an electric where you can tweak it to suit your sound after purchase. what you get is what you got. might as well make sure it's what you're after.


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## 59burst (May 27, 2010)

I like to go with a friend if possible and get his/her comments while I play and them have them play it while I sit in front. Guitars can sound quite different from what you hear when you play them!


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## cbg1 (Mar 27, 2012)

imho the most important things to know is how to evaluate the neck to body set/angle, as well as fretboard relief......


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Get someone else in the store to play it for you - even just to strum a few chords. When you're actually playing an acoustic, you're in the worse possible position to evaluate its tone ie behind and above it.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

nkjanssen said:


> No, because I don't believe there any "best guitar". If you can find a guitar you love the feel, sound and look of that fits within your budget, that's all anyone can reasonably hope for. A double-blind scientific test is nether practical nor in any way necessary to make that determination.
> 
> I absolutely believe that the best way to find a guitar you love is to try a lot of guitars. I wouldn't trust any guitar seller who told me otherwise.


This is right on!


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## Greg Ellis (Oct 1, 2007)

From their website:


"Play this guitar in the comfort of your own home for a week. If you don't fall in love with it we'll take it back and issue a full refund, including shipping costs."


That seems like a pretty reasonable compromise to me.


The point is to play the guitar you're considering buying, to see if you like it. Comparing that guitar to a bunch of others is a side-issue.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Greg Ellis said:


> From their website:
> 
> 
> "Play this guitar in the comfort of your own home for a week. If you don't fall in love with it we'll take it back and issue a full refund, including shipping costs."
> ...



They've only had 11 returned. That's a pretty good record. 

For those that wonder how good their guitars are, go to the 36:12 minute mark of the video below.

[video=youtube;Mv_zCSYHM2Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=Mv_zCSYHM2Q[/video]


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## cbg1 (Mar 27, 2012)

hmmm.....judging from the coiled up strings on the m and m guitar they were fresh strings...not sure about the strings on the other guitar but i would say they were a lighter gauge and sounded a bit out of tune .




Steadfastly said:


> They've only had 11 returned. That's a pretty good record.
> 
> For those that wonder how good their guitars are, go to the 36:12 minute mark of the video below.
> 
> [video=youtube;Mv_zCSYHM2Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&amp;v=Mv_zCSYHM2Q[/video]


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

It seemed tilted in favor of the M&M guys but who wouldn't do something like that if they were in that position, reminded me of an infomercial pitch.





cbg1 said:


> hmmm.....judging from the coiled up strings on the m and m guitar they were fresh strings...not sure about the strings on the other guitar but i would say they were a lighter gauge and sounded a bit out of tune .


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

I'm pretty sure we've all played inexpensive guitars that sound great and expensive guitars that leave us cold. Let me pick a $5000 guitar for comparison and I'm betting the results may have been different.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

59burst said:


> I like to go with a friend if possible and get his/her comments while I play and them have them play it while I sit in front. Guitars can sound quite different from what you hear when you play them!





bagpipe said:


> Get someone else in the store to play it for you - even just to strum a few chords. When you're actually playing an acoustic, you're in the worse possible position to evaluate its tone ie behind and above it.


That's one of the reasons I posted that it can be helpful to have someone with you.
I've been that other person for friends.

I've also done this for strangers in stores.
In one case I think the store should have paid me a commission.


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## rcacs (May 4, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> When buying a new acoustic should you go to as many music stores as possible and try as many models as possible until you get the one that sounds right to you? That may be the advice many of us give but MacKenzie and Marr, an acoustic company in Quebec says this about that.
> 
> 
> 
> With our human imperfections, what they say makes sense to me.


Going by personal experience, I say they are probably correct. I have been kicking tires for a few months now at several shops looking for an acoustic. I start out thinking I pretty much know what I want and like (and budget in mind) but wow, doesnt take long before I end up leaving to "give it some thought".

Maybe I need to find a shop that only has 3 guitars in stock.....

Just my take on the subject.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I have purchased 2 acoustics in my time and still have and love both. The first, in 1973, is my Yamaki and the 2nd one I tried in that particular search. The first was an identical model but just wasn't right. I tried it on the store owner's suggestion. I remember telling him that my budget and desire were comfortable with many choices and that my heart was set on a Martin or Guild - not some cheaper Japanese wood. Well I was amazed by that guitar and after trying every possibility - including Martins, Guilds, Gibsons, and a variety of handmades costing 8 times as much I went back and bought the Yamaki.

My 2nd acoustic is a Gibson J-165, purchased earlier this year. I had started playing acoustic live again and was worried sick everytime I took the Yamaki to a bar or restaurant and decided to buy a replacement. This time I was determined to buy either a Taylor or a Larrivee. Regardless, I wanted a cutaway, full compliment of preamp controls, spruce and rosewood (or mahogany). Well, I tried to love the Taylors and I really tried to love the Larrivees but they were just "guitars" to me - nothing special although all of my research told me I should want them.

Anyway the store guy where I was looking at the Larrivees said "Hey, I just got something in used that I think you'd really like" and he brings out a case from the back room. It's a Gibson J-165 in vintage sunburst. Naw - I want spruce, rosewood, super-preamp, etc, not maple - not a single volume control - not full bouts. He puts it on my lap. 

It came home with me.


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## cbg1 (Mar 27, 2012)

to say it was tilted is being kind....that test was like putting a ford focus up against a ferrari and pulling half the plug wires on the ferrari.



vadsy said:


> It seemed tilted in favor of the M&M guys but who wouldn't do something like that if they were in that position, reminded me of an infomercial pitch.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

cbg1 said:


> to say it was tilted is being kind....that test was like putting a ford focus up against a ferrari and pulling half the plug wires on the ferrari.


Except the "Dragon" that played it could obviously play and would have known that.

- - - Updated - - -



allthumbs56 said:


> I have purchased 2 acoustics in my time and still have and love both. The first, in 1973, is my Yamaki and the 2nd one I tried in that particular search. The first was an identical model but just wasn't right. I tried it on the store owner's suggestion. I remember telling him that my budget and desire were comfortable with many choices and that my heart was set on a Martin or Guild - not some cheaper Japanese wood. Well I was amazed by that guitar and after trying every possibility - including Martins, Guilds, Gibsons, and a variety of handmades costing 8 times as much I went back and bought the Yamaki.
> 
> My 2nd acoustic is a Gibson J-165, purchased earlier this year. I had started playing acoustic live again and was worried sick everytime I took the Yamaki to a bar or restaurant and decided to buy a replacement. This time I was determined to buy either a Taylor or a Larrivee. Regardless, I wanted a cutaway, full compliment of preamp controls, spruce and rosewood (or mahogany). Well, I tried to love the Taylors and I really tried to love the Larrivees but they were just "guitars" to me - nothing special although all of my research told me I should want them.
> 
> ...


Well, your story made me smile! I'm glad your preconceived wants/perceptions didn't persuade you from finding two great guitars.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Very interesting read. Does anyone on GC own a Mackenzie & Marr guitar??


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## allanr (Jan 11, 2012)

I believe the best way to buy any musical instrument is through a mixed approach. It requires patience and impulsiveness at the same time. Along with a large dollop of serendipity. 

1) The patience part: visit lots of stores, try lots of guitars but DO NOT compare them to each other. 

2) The impulsiveness part: as you progress through part one, eventually you hope for that magic moment when the guitar that you are playing seems to "speak" to you. It feels as though it is an integral part of you. If you can afford it, even if you have to borrow, BUY THAT GUITAR.

I've bought instruments based on looks, based on collectibility, based on value, based on mojo... But the ones that I keep going back to all "spoke" to me when I first picked them up, and are still speaking to me today. Interestingly, I have on more than one occasion been fortunate enough to have this happen with online purchases. My National Resophonic Triolian ukulele comes to mind. 

Of course the reason that I have gained so much buying experience is obvious... I've made A LOT of mistakes!


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

you could practically see the rust on the strings of the "5000$" guitar whereas their guitar had shiney new ones.

what kind was it, anyways? i couldn't make out the name on the headstock.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

allanr said:


> 2) The impulsiveness part: as you progress through part one, eventually you hope for that magic moment when the guitar that you are playing seems to "speak" to you. It feels as though it is an integral part of you. If you can afford it, even if you have to borrow, BUY THAT GUITAR.
> 
> I've bought instruments based on looks, based on collectibility, based on value, based on mojo... But the ones that I keep going back to all "spoke" to me when I first picked them up, and are still speaking to me today.


All the guitars I bought myself spoke to me in some way when I tried them out.
I've also had guitars that sort of spoke to me--but they said--put me down!
They just didn't feel right.

I've picked up guitars and put them down without even playing them--I just knew they were not for me.


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## bluesguitar1972 (Jul 16, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> While it is most likely part of the speil, I believe what they say is true. There is no way a person, no matter how experienced he is can properly compare different guitars in different stores at different times. The only way is to have them all at the same location at the same time and all with new strings with similar set ups. This simply can't be done when going from store to store.
> 
> To be valid, you also need to do the blindfold test so no previous prejudices obscure the decision.
> 
> When it is done over weeks or months, it makes it even more difficult to remember what a certain guitar played like.


Thing is, I don't have to remember every guitar I tried. There will really only be a handful that fit. I'm only comparing the best of the group I try while the others are largely forgotten shortly after going back on the wall. To me, this is the flaw in their logic. The ones I really like stick with me. The ones that are "meh" don't and therefore don't ever really enter the race anyway.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

mike_oxbig said:


> you could practically see the rust on the strings of the "5000$" guitar whereas their guitar had shiney new ones.
> 
> what kind was it, anyways? i couldn't make out the name on the headstock.


Looked like a Bourgeois, but sure didn't sound like one! I own two Bourgeois guitars, and have played quite a few more, and they have all been exceptional instruments. I have bought and sold several muti-thousand dollar acoustics and they have remained and are played more than all others. 

The "shoot out" was definitely rigged. Any serious guitar player would have made sure the guitars were in tune before doing a comparison. If it were me I would be seriously asking what was wrong with the guitar that cost $5k that it sounded and played that badly. I certainly wouldn't accept that they all sounded like that and that the other guitar brand, that also didn't sound well tuned or setup, was going to be superior to any guitar costing 5 times as much. It did create a huge "wow" moment and some instant entertainment, so I guess we'll have to accept that it was a great moment in Canadian TV.

i agree with all that said you must educate yourself by playing as many guitars as you can to see what feels, looks and sounds good to you. That doesn't mean that you need to compare them to each other, and find the one that is best, an impossible task, but it is the only way that you can gain the experience and comfort of knowing if one will satisfy your needs. How else can you know what body style, wood choice, scale length, etc. are going to be the most likely candidate for a given task.

Another benefit of trying a lot of guitars is to develop a relationship and trust with several shop owners. I have met a few across Canada that have earned my trust and respect, enough that I would accept their assessment of a particular instrument that I was interested in buying. In fact, both of my Bourgeois were bought over the telephone and shipped to me. In both cases I asked very detailed questions, based on my experience playing and assessing literally thousands of instruments, and the seller was sharp enough to decipher what I was looking for and very capable of articulating every physical feature and sonic nuance of the instrument (thank you, David Wren). There was no surprise when I received the instrument. They felt and played pretty much as described to me. 

There is no absolute right or wrong way to find an instrument, but considering the number of used ones that appear for resale there are a lot of mistakes made by us all as we gain experience.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

ronmac said:


> There is no absolute right or wrong way to find an instrument, but considering the number of used ones that appear for resale there are a lot of mistakes made by us all as we gain experience.


Hey, we agree!


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## evantide (Feb 12, 2013)

ronmac said:


> Looked like a Bourgeois, but sure didn't sound like one! I own two Bourgeois guitars, and have played quite a few more, and they have all been exceptional instruments. I have bought and sold several muti-thousand dollar acoustics and they have remained and are played more than all others.
> 
> The "shoot out" was definitely rigged. Any serious guitar player would have made sure the guitars were in tune before doing a comparison. If it were me I would be seriously asking what was wrong with the guitar that cost $5k that it sounded and played that badly. I certainly wouldn't accept that they all sounded like that and that the other guitar brand, that also didn't sound well tuned or setup, was going to be superior to any guitar costing 5 times as much. It did create a huge "wow" moment and some instant entertainment, so I guess we'll have to accept that it was a great moment in Canadian TV.
> 
> ...


Yea, if you have a David Wren on the line, naturally you'de trust his judgement, he's a great luthier and has a sharp ear, I'd trust him any day, but would I trust any store salesman without trying out the guitar? No way. 
A long time ago, I went to purchase a classical Ramirez A1 in Mississauga, I took my classical Larivee 1974 probably the last one Jean made, for comparison. I had new strings on mine all settled and sounding great. The Ramirez used to belong to a teacher at the Toronto conservatory, they were asking $1500. at the time, long, long time ago. Ramirez had really old strings and the playability was awful, I mean anything past the 5th fret was impossible, needed a lot of work, I passed on it. I wish I hadn't now, but didn't know that much then. There was absolute no comparison as far as sound went, the Ramirez won hands down, it was an older model too, well aged and played. I regret not buying that guitar cause I'll never forget the sound, it was so incredible, I have not come close to any guitar I have played since then in sound.


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## allanr (Jan 11, 2012)

Sorry, but the answer to the question, "when buying a new acoustic you should...?" Is....

Reconsider. Buy another electric or another ukulele instead.

Funny, but no joke! I tend to try too many new things at once so that I don't get to excel at any one thing. I need to consciously impose limits on myself. So in order to make progress and stay sharp on harmonica, ukulele, and electric guitar, I need to avoid thinking about new, cool things like, bass, percussion, and acoustic guitars.


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