# Amp size, what am I missing out on?



## Wiser (Jan 6, 2010)

Having only used "practice" or "bedroom" amps I'm curious about the larger amps. Is there more than volume output to be gained by investing in a higher watt amp?

Similarly, why do owners of these big expensive high watt amps still buy and use "practice" amps? An attenuator can be used to lower the output of an amp, so is it just for portability?

I don't plan on buying anything, I was curious.

Thanks.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

Hey there...you would think that a 100 Watt amp would be twice as loud as a 50 Watt amp right...???...Nope...it's only about 3 decibels louder...read here...

Amplifier Loudness: Watts and Decibels | Billy Penn's 300Guitars.com

I used to own the Marshall Jimi Hendrix signature amp...a full stack...I thought I would get tons of crunchy rock 'n roll sounds out of it at bedroom levels...no such joy...even on full blast...the amp was disappointingly clean...

I picked up some small 5 and 10 Watt "bedroom amps"...when you crank those up...BINGO...glorious rock tones at sane levels...you could easily carry on a quiet conversation while rockin' out...

Players used to buy ginormous amps to stroke their ego (mine are the biggest/loudest stacks in the world)...but also out of necessity...in the 60's and 70's one needed a giant amp to simply be heard in a concert setting because P.A. systems weren't technologically up to the task back then...

Modern day technology means that you can use a relatively small amp to perform while boosting it's apparent loudness with a P.A. system to fill the venue...

Here's a pic showing a modern day set up....The guitar is played thru a "small" head (the other is a spare)...but the crowd thinks he's blasting thru the rows of fake stacks behind him...check it out...


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

nothing. get an amp that has a nice tone at volumes you use.

i have an ac15c1. 15 watts...its fantastic on a saturday afternoon and i wanna crank it. night time practice...a little weak...just doesnt sound the same as when the tubes are cooking, which is why i am looking for a 5 watt amp for when i want great tone at low volume.

an attenuator is great, but from what i've researched, they generally are not always transparent.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

jimihendrix said:


>


Amazing picture!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Frankly, as stated by "jimihendrix", there's really no practical reason to use big guitar amps anymore.You can play soccer stadiums with a Fender champ if you like. The PA is there to do the "heavy lifting".Not everyone will agree, but you can get huge tone from small combos.

As for night time practicing, I like to use my Tonelab with a nice set of headphones.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

As much as I love my AC4TV, what small amps miss out on often is the "size" of the tone. I've had a Blues Jr., Champs and other small combos (including the Vox) and all of them sound "small" due to the small speaker in the combo. They ALL sounded better into a larger cab. That's one thing you miss out on if you're talking about practice amps that are combos.

Also, while you might not get tons more volume, as jimi pointed out, you can get more headroom. People like 100w tube heads not because they're stupid loud, because my 35ish watt JTM45 is also stupid loud, but my JTM45 doesn't have the same sort of headroom you'll get from a Twin. A bigger amp will stay cleaner longer, or can have a more convincing CHUNK when you're chugging through power chords. 

Milkman's right (so's Jimi), you really don't need a big amp these days to play shows, unless you MUST have lots of headroom. My JTM45 is waaay more amp than 95% of the place I play at require. I could probably get by at some of these places with my AC4TV, in all honesty. However, I _do_ love my JTM45. It has a tone that I haven't been able to find from a smaller amp, and I've tried


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Head room is important for really good cleans, but the 38 watt 2 X 10 I currently use is so loud I can barely crack it. There's just no way I'm ever going to push the output stage. Head room is not an issue unless you're talking really low wattage amps OR you play way too loud. You certainly don't have to go to a 100 watt half stack to get plenty of clean headroom.

I think the difference between an open backed combo and a closed back cabinet with exactly the same speaker is noticable, but you can get all trhe bottom you need from a 10" speaker. Ask anyoine who has ever used an SVT.

Just my opinion of course.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

100W at 2 on the master will also sound different then an identical 50W at 2 on the master.

I have a 100W amp because it gets me all the tones I want at all the volumes I'd want them. Also, I vastly prefer the tone of a 412 to that of a 212.


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## Andy (Sep 23, 2007)

I much prefer the feel of a larger power section. I play a 50 watter right now as my main amp, but I've happily played with 100.

Generally, the guys loving low wattage are the ones loving a bit of sag and power amp overdrive. I'm a fan of a tight, responsive power section that gives better note definition and a crisper attack. I find that it's mostly >50w heads that give this tone and feel.

IMO, there's a volume knob for a reason, and it doesn't need to be cranked. Just as low wattage can be a legitimate tool for achieving your sound, so can high wattage.


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

Small amps sound small. I know that some will disagree but I've tested small Swart boutique amps costing $1-2K that some were raving about and thought they sounded like small amps. I use a 40-watt 2x10 combo and with the volume at 5 or 6 (half-way) it rattles the walls. But even at very low volume it sounds better than a small amp, in my opinion. Of course, at low volume you need pedals to get any kind of overdrive or distortion. I haven't played for any length of time through half stacks or full stacks but I would imagine they sound even better.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Head room is important for really good cleans, but the 38 watt 2 X 10 I currently use is so loud I can barely crack it. There's just no way I'm ever going to push the output stage. Head room is not an issue unless you're talking really low wattage amps OR you play way too loud. You certainly don't have to go to a 100 watt half stack to get plenty of clean headroom.


Agreed, but I would say your 38 watt amp isn't a small one. I was talking more about 5 watt Champ-ish amps. My JTM45 doesn't get crunchy til I hit roughly 4 on the volume, at which point, it's harmful to my health to be standing next to it. I use an attenuator to bring it down when I'm running it wide open.



> I think the difference between an open backed combo and a closed back cabinet with exactly the same speaker is noticable, but you can get all trhe bottom you need from a 10" speaker. Ask anyoine who has ever used an SVT.


Well, yes and no. I have an AC4TV with a 10" and I've played Princetons with 10" and they're nice, but I will opt for a 2x12" whenever I can. In a studio setting where you can really be finicky and dial something in just right with the right mic, etc. you can make up for it, but I've never had a soundcheck where I've had enough time to really do anything like that. It's mostly drop a 57 in front of the grill, make sure it's aimed at the driver (in whatever orientation you prefer) and let the sound guy work his magic (which is usually me - and I have no magic). Also, again, I was primarily talking about little 5 watters with their anemic 6" drivers, though amps like the Blues Jr. can also sound very small, despite their 12" driver, but more due to the small cab design.

As for the SVT, well, yeah, they're 10" drivers, but there's freakin' EIGHT of them  2x10 will have more perceived lows than 1x12", so a mass of 10"s is fine for bass, but there has to be lots of them. The rationale for the 10" drivers in a bass cab is that they are more punchy and don't sound as flubby because the amp doesn't have to work as hard pulling the cone back after it reaches its excursion.


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## rev156 (Mar 2, 2008)

Lets not forget weight. The older I get, the less I want to haul around. I have a Blackheart 5w that I can't crank without going deaf, but with only 1 gain stage it's very clean and pedal dependant for OD/distortion. I'm currently having it guttted and rewired/retubed to JCM800 territory for use without pedals. It still will be 5w but gloriously dirty! and light!
Mark


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

I have a mixture of amps for different purposes and this is my take on it.

- Wattage has nothing to do with volume, yet everything to do with headroom. You can make a low wattage amp sound quite loud, or a high wattage head sound quite quiet. What you can't do is make a low wattage head have more headroom, or a high wattage head have less.

When it comes to cleans I generally don't like a lot of headroom (wattage). I prefer a bit of grit and give in my clean tones and the best way to achieve them for me has been to use relatively low wattage amps, preferably with tube rectifiers to add a bit more sponge to them. My favourite clean amps seem to fall around the 30w range.

When it comes to pure high gain I like a lot of headroom. The more the better. Since the preamp is already distorted and compressed the last thing I want to do is add even more distortion and compression at the power amp stage.

When it comes to crunch tones it kind of depends. More wattage puts more authority on the palm mutes and the harder/stiffer attack opens up room for me to apply more gain/distortion to the signal and get a brighter, more aggressive tone without it turning to mush. Less wattage produces a warmer/chunkier sort of soft clipping that puts it's own sort of grind on my guitar tone and produces a darker/thicker/less aggressive form of dirt than I get when I rely more on the preamp. However turning up the gain with less headroom induces a sort of mushy response that I'm not into, however dudes who like really greasy lead tones may like it a lot.


Feel free to agree/disagree... it's all subjective anyway and the above is just one dude's opinion.

My suggestion is to ignore pretty much what everyone says about tone (including me) and try a bunch of things out for yourself until you find what combination of gain and headroom work best for you and your style of playing... although you may need to compromise on your ideals in order to suit your current playing/band situation.


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## Tyler Savage (Nov 16, 2009)

Reasons for owning 50w+ amps + half/fullstacks

1.adds inches to your genitals
2. blast other peoples clothes off
3. Frequencies could be perceived differently by the human ear given volume
4. That 'thump' you get in your chest when you play an eMinor or even a Gm
5. Some of us don't always play with great PA systems, and even when we do, sound guys can often screw up the stage mic'ing of a small amp
6. exercise
7. piss off neighbours who think you're stealing their flowers. You also start actually stealing their flowers

Reasons for owning small amps

1. light to carry
2. Many great records were recorded with small amps
3. recording a small amp can open up the sounds of a room more than a half stack that gives you nothing to work with
4. often less expensive
5. Tubes are less expensive, or there are less of them
6.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I revised item 1 ;-)



Tyler Savage said:


> Reasons for owning 50w+ amps + half/fullstacks
> 
> 1.compensates for lack of inches of your genitals
> 2. blast other peoples clothes off
> ...


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

That's hilarious...what's #6 for small amps...???...I'm guessing that "it's not the size that counts...it's how you use it..."


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

That one just made my day Mike


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

hahaha, solid gold!

I've come to the conclusion that amps in the 30 watt range are what works best for me. Something like the Deluxe Reverb or the JTM that I love so much. On the lower end, 18 watt Marshalls and a Princeton Reverb are also awesome. For the stuff I play and how I play it, I have absolutely no need for anything more than 40 watts. 

Having said that, I *totally* have a serious case of GAS for a JCM800


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## flattopterry (Mar 6, 2011)

I used to gig with a Mesa MK II head, two single 12" stacked cabs, switched down to 60w. We did not have an adequate PA ( it was the 80's) to mic everything, so needed a loud amp.

Now I gig with a Mesa 5:25 Express, usually on the 30 watt setting, 1 x 10", and mic'd. Killer tone and weighs 34 lbs. Something we do a little different is we face our amps back towards us on angled stands. We can crank them as loud as we want and it doesn't screw up the mix for the soundman.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

flattopterry said:


> I used to gig with a Mesa MK II head, two single 12" stacked cabs, switched down to 60w. We did not have an adequate PA ( it was the 80's) to mic everything, so needed a loud amp.
> 
> Now I gig with a Mesa 5:25 Express, usually on the 30 watt setting, 1 x 10", and mic'd. Killer tone and weighs 34 lbs. Something we do a little different is we face our amps back towards us on angled stands. We can crank them as loud as we want and it doesn't screw up the mix for the soundman.


Pointing your amps back toward you and AWAY from the audience and soundman is a great way to go.

Kudos for being among the few who get it.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Pointing your amps back toward you and AWAY from the audience and soundman is a great way to go.
> 
> Kudos for being among the few who get it.


Yeah, I tend to put my amp back behind me, but basically angle it so it washes across the stage diagonally. Audience members at the side might hear a bit of direct sound, but I try to aim it at a wall. I don't know if I could have my amp facing me; the stages we play are pretty crammed as it is and I'd be flat against the back wall


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

As a singer, I like to side wash my amp aimed just behind where I stand at the mic. That way I'n not blasting myself while singing.

I take one step back for solos and I'm standing right in the sweet spot.
Works like a charm.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Milkman said:


> As a singer, I like to side wash my amp aimed just behind where I stand at the mic. That way I'n not blasting myself while singing.
> 
> I take one step back for solos and I'm standing right in the sweet spot.
> Works like a charm.


Good idea! I don't front, but I do a lot of backups and always have a hard time hearing some songs. I'll try that next time!


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## CSBen (Mar 1, 2011)

One very key variable in this discussion that I haven't seen brought up so far is speaker sensitivity or efficiency.

A 96dB level efficiency speaker will be dramatically quieter than a 103dB.

I just sold a Maz 18Nr w/ a 2x10 convertible cabinet. In it were 2 103dB efficiency speakers, each rated at 70watts each…and together for a whoopin’ 140watts cabinet. 

So say that this 18w amp was loud as hell is possibly understatement. 

Use the same head with say a Celestion G12M Greenback or G12EHV – it’ll be quite the difference.

As for attenuators:
You really do get what you pair for. If you go with the less expensive attenuators using the LPad design, it will work ok for the first few clicks of attenuation, but forget about the bedroom level. It'll get compress, squished, thin and frizzy. 

Spend more and you'll get 10x more back. I am using an Aracom PXR 150-PRO and it can tame some really loud 100w amps w/ high dB speakers like no other. There are other good ones out there of course, but this one is the best I've tried.

As for being able to crank a 5w, single-ended, all tube amp into OD and still be able to carry on a normal conversation - maybe a real good shootin' and screaming match sigiifa

Cheers
Ben


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Wiser said:


> Having only used "practice" or "bedroom" amps I'm curious about the larger amps. Is there more than volume output to be gained by investing in a higher watt amp?
> 
> Similarly, why do owners of these big expensive high watt amps still buy and use "practice" amps? An attenuator can be used to lower the output of an amp, so is it just for portability?


As much as the majority of rock-oriented players slobber over distortion, there are plenty of players and moments for players, where clean is the intended outcome. Trouble is, there's the volume level required for the gig, and the volume level the amp will still remain clean at, and those two may not coincide. So, more wattage can certainly (though not just on its own) make it possible to play at louder levels with acceptable cleanliness. Remember, you can always use something to make the sound more distorted, but it's very hardto make a distorted sound become cleaner.

A second aspect is that power and cab size tend to go together. And cab size has an impact not only on the physical efficiency of the amp/cab combination, but on the tone too. You could take your current bedroom amp, together with its speaker, and house it in a larger cab, adapted for it, and be very impressed with the increase in both loudness and low-end "thrust", without changing any other components. So, cab size tends to change the size of the resulting sound. While plenty of manufacturers make low wattage amps with a jack for plugging in a larger cab, I can't think of any that make a 5W amp with a pair of 12s in them. The working assumption is that if you want a bigger sound, you'll know how to get it with their amp.

As others have noted, there is not all THAT much to be gained from a mere increase/doubling in wattage. Quite often, merely doubling the wattage provides less of an increment to perceived "size" of your sound than using the exact same wattage but different speakers in a different cab and maybe a different preamp tube or two. And, always keep in mind that the rated wattage of an amp or of a speaker, is with respect to _potential_, not _actual_.

The question inevitably arises: Just how *much* bigger does the amp need to be for me to experience these supposed benefits? Certainly doubling the cone area, or increasing the cab volume by 50% can make an appreciable difference. If your practice amp has a single 10" in it, switching to a 12" (without changing the cab) will make a difference. If your cab is 16" wide by 12" high, and 8" deep (.89 cubic feet), switching to a cab that is 16" x 14" x 10" will increase the cab volume to 1.3 cubic feet, a 45% increase in cab internal volume. That will lower the resonance of the cab and provide more bottom; all from adding 2" from front to back, and 2" in height. Many larger cabs, as well, are closed back, which gives even more heft to the sound than a practice amp with a 10" and an open back you can throw the power cord into.

Keep in mind that the manufacturer is looking for ways to cut production cost. And when you're turning out an entry-level amp, where there is so much competition that you make your money on sales volume rather than decent profit margin, the manufacturer will be looking for little things to cut costs. So, let's make that cab 14" wide and 6" deep instead of 16" and 8". Let's make that cab open back. What does that do for us? Well, for starters, we're using less wood, less tolex, and require less sturdy build because right away its lighter. Not only that but the smaller size means we can stick more of them on a pallet, so the space needed for inventory is less. Our shipping costs are less because we've reduced the overall weight, and we can stick 60 of them on a shrink-wrapped pallet coming from China, instead of only 50. But wait! there's more! A smaller cab/amp means we've also cut our packaging costs. And all of those savings, resulting from simply making the cab a bit smaller, can turn the amp from a so-so catalog item to a cash cow. Higher power amps, particularly tube amps where the consumer has come to expect a higher cost up front, can ignore all that nickel and diming and do what needs to be done for the amp to make it sound decent at a broad range of volume levels.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

CSBen said:


> One very key variable in this discussion that I haven't seen brought up so far is speaker sensitivity or efficiency.
> 
> A 96dB level efficiency speaker will be dramatically quieter than a 103dB.
> 
> ...


Good point. You can use a nice inefficient speaker as an attenuator to really bring down levels. The Eminence Reignmaker is sorta this idea, where the efficiency goes from 91.5-100db or so.

Also, yes, my 4w AC4TV at full tilt is really freaking loud. I would have to shout to be heard over it, unless I was in a large room and 50 feet away from it 

No experience with the Aracom attenuator, but I used the Ultimate Attenuator and am very happy with it. I've used the Dr. Z and the THD in the past and they are ok, but not great.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Older audio guides usually noted 4W as sufficient to generate "room-filling sound" from a bass reflex (ported) speaker cab. Of course, "room-filling" to somebody grooving to Perry Como, Stan Kenton, Pat Boone, or Rogers & Hammerstein tunes probably means something _very_ different than it does to someone listen to Slayer or Mastodon.

And yep, the range of speaker efficiencies out there allows one to select speakers so as to both make lower power amps louder, _and_ higher power amps quieter.


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## Clean Channel (Apr 18, 2011)

Milkman said:


> Pointing your amps back toward you and AWAY from the audience and soundman is a great way to go.
> 
> Kudos for being among the few who get it.


I also agree with this. If you think the sound guy is messing up your mix, turning up your 100 watt head will definitely not solve the problem.


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## Spellcaster (Jan 7, 2008)

Pattste got it right: Small amps sound small. I was really excited when I was able to trade one of my Vox amps for a really mint 66 Vibrochamp....until I tried it. It was like every nasty little peactice amp I'd ever owned as a kid. Tried retubing (a couple of times), recapped, tried upgrading to a Weber speaker, and nothing made that thing sound decent. I even tried plugging the chassis into some bigger cabinets - 2 x 12 Bandmaster and 2 x 15 Showman - but it still sounded small. Most of the commonly used small amps that people like for portability such as Blues Junior seem to suffer from the same not-quite-grown-up sound issues as that Vibrochamp. I use a blackface Twin Reverb head and Dual Showman cabinet. You can get the sag, headroom, compression and overdrive effects with the judicious use of pedals in front of a bigger amp, but it doesn't work the other way....Small amps will always sound....small. 

Sorry, size does matter.

And yeah, I'm 60 and packing that big stuff around is a bitch but worthwhile


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## CSBen (Mar 1, 2011)

Spellcaster said:


> Pattste got it right: Small amps sound small. I was really excited when I was able to trade one of my Vox amps for a really mint 66 Vibrochamp....until I tried it. It was like every nasty little peactice amp I'd ever owned as a kid. Tried retubing (a couple of times), recapped, tried upgrading to a Weber speaker, and nothing made that thing sound decent. I even tried plugging the chassis into some bigger cabinets - 2 x 12 Bandmaster and 2 x 15 Showman - but it still sounded small. Most of the commonly used small amps that people like for portability such as Blues Junior seem to suffer from the same not-quite-grown-up sound issues as that Vibrochamp. I use a blackface Twin Reverb head and Dual Showman cabinet. You can get the sag, headroom, compression and overdrive effects with the judicious use of pedals in front of a bigger amp, but it doesn't work the other way....Small amps will always sound....small.
> 
> Sorry, size does matter.
> 
> And yeah, I'm 60 and packing that big stuff around is a bitch but worthwhile


I'd be happy to have my Swart AST Pro up, with its 31lbs combo size pinned against much , much large combo or cabs and see which will sound larger ; )

I still agree with you, but not ALL small combo will sound thin, small and fragile. You do get what you pay for however, that variable you can't get away from.

Cheers
Ben


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## CSBen (Mar 1, 2011)

I'd be happy to have my Swart AST Pro up, with its 31lbs combo size pinned against much , much large combo or cabs and see which will sound larger ; )

I still agree with you, but not ALL small combo will sound thin, small and fragile. You do get what you pay for however, that variable you can't get away from. You mentionned the BluesJr and that's what I meant by that. I know a lot of folks here will be all up and arms, totally bent out of shape about that comment on the BluesJr, but hey, it is what it is.

Cheers
Ben


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

Spellcaster said:


> Sorry, size does matter.


In the automobile world they say "There's no substitute for cubic inches" and it's no different in the amplifier world. Bigger output tubes and more of them just excite those speaker coils in a way that smaller wattage amps can't. The sound has more immediacy, weight, punch, depth, just more of everything. If this is what you're after, it's impossible to achieve any other way.


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

WCGill said:


> In the automobile world they say "There's no substitute for cubic inches"


 
The ******* version goes something like, "Their ain't no replacement for displacement."


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

When it comes to *recording* guitar amps...small amps can produce huge sounds...at tolerable levels...


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## Spellcaster (Jan 7, 2008)

jimihendrix, Agreed....for recording purposes. The original Led Zeppelin album which supposedly was done with a Tele and a Vibrochamp is a perfect example of that. It just doesn't work as well in a live situation.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Not to make an argument, but I believe Page used a Tele and a Supro with a 12in speaker. I actually happened to know coz I have just been researching the Supro amps as I just got one on the way here from California. 

Just saw a guy at the bluesfest here playing through a ZT Lunchbox amplifier with it's accompanying cab with the same 6" speaker. He was in the Rosie Ledet & The Zydeco Playboys and he didn't sound huge but he surely cut across the mix with no problems at all. While I saw Protest the Hero's guitar player using I believe a VHT 100W amp with at least one 4x12 and hardly could hear him through the mix. Everything just depends on what sound you're looking for.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

Chito...is it a model 24...???...


http://www.vintageguitar.com/7711/7711/


[video=youtube;QE21uKTx09U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE21uKTx09U[/video]


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

jimihendrix said:


> Chito...is it a model 24...???...


No, it is a early 60's Supro 1690T with was modded with a 12" speaker, exactly like what JP gave to the RRHOF. Last check, the amp is still in Montreal but I should get it in a couple of days. I got it from a friend in California who plays harmonica.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

screamingdaisy said:


> The ******* version goes something like, "Their ain't no replacement for displacement."


Yup, right until some hairdresser in a Boxter blows the doors off of their big block chevy.


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Yup, right until some hairdresser in a Boxter blows the doors off of their big block chevy.


Boxters are cool if you're down with announcing you're having a middle age crisis.

And you need to double check both top speed and accel specs if you think a Boxter can blow the doors off a big block Chev. A production small block Corvette shaves nearly 2 seconds off the 0-60mph times and has double the top speed.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

Alright...alright...guys...put your big blocks and your small blocks back in your pants...and let's get back to guitar amps...


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Milkman said:


> Yup, right until some hairdresser in a Boxter blows the doors off of their big block chevy.


the boxter couldn't blow the doors off of a 3 yr old on a tricycle.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Chito said:


> No, it is a early 60's Supro 1690T with was modded with a 12" speaker, exactly like what JP gave to the RRHOF. Last check, the amp is still in Montreal but I should get it in a couple of days. I got it from a friend in California who plays harmonica.


Actually its 1959 Supro1624T with no mods, everything seems to original except for the Ruby 6v6 tubes.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

Ah...there's a never ending debate on which amp he really used...This article is supposed to reveal Jimmy Page's mystery amp...

The Supro “Model 24″ | Vintage Guitar® magazine


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## Clean Channel (Apr 18, 2011)

Some of you might find this interesting. The comments below the article are also quite informative.

Andy's Corner » Guitar News Archive » Appropriate Wattage


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

The term "appropriate wattage" is interesting in itself


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## Roybruno92 (Jul 20, 2011)

in my experience of playing live, i find that a good small combo (nothing more that 30 watts) is ideal.I get a good punchy clean tone from the tubes that's great to drive my OD's and Fuzz. Also, the venue's tech guys won't hate you as much when they mic it 
I also love the sound of a good 1X12 and i don't get that annoying phase that can result from miking a 412.


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> The term "appropriate wattage" is interesting in itself


"Appropriate" can probably be summarized via this comment in the article;

"The iconic guitar sounds we all want to achieve in a large part come from the 60’s and 70’s."


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## Astroman86 (May 6, 2010)

i like those PGS articles. actually learning a lot from them. that last one especially.
but now im totally stuck on what i need haha. my friends all say 50watts or higher, but everything im reading says 50 watts or less. 
is a lower watt amp with a nice cab and loud speakers the same as a high watt amp with an attenuator? 
dont think theres not a lot of mic'ing options 'round these parts.


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

Astroman86 said:


> i like those PGS articles. actually learning a lot from them. that last one especially.
> but now im totally stuck on what i need haha. my friends all say 50watts or higher, but everything im reading says 50 watts or less.
> is a lower watt amp with a nice cab and loud speakers the same as a high watt amp with an attenuator?
> dont think theres not a lot of mic'ing options 'round these parts.


It depends.

Are you looking for a mid to high gain amp?

Or more of a vintage clean to overdrive?

Low watts is pretty important if you're using a non-master volume amp that won't achieve any overdrive without being turned up too loud, which is the kind of tone that article is talking about. Limiting wattage is simply the means to limit the final volume of the amp. 

However, if you're using an amp with a master volume your ability to achieve a dirty tone isn't connected to your final volume so you're a little freer to choose something a little more powerful since you can set your final volume at whatever level you desire.

For instance, if you want a dirty rock tone there's plenty of instances where a 30w JTM 45 will be too loud yet a 100w JCM800 will do just fine.


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## Astroman86 (May 6, 2010)

lol right master volume. maybe im over thinking all this, im starting to forget things when i learn new info.
im looking for options number 2 there, vintage clean to overdrive. something thatll be loud and clean, but has some crunch. im alright with using my fuzz for dirt.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

I've played amps of all shapes and sizes, and I can honestly say a pair of 6l6 tubes in the power section (which is about 40 watts in most cases) is ideal for the sounds you describe above in _gigging _situations. My current one in that configuration is a Garnet stencil called a Mann, it's kind of the one that I think I'll keep forever... But, I love my 15 watt dual el84 amps too (currently a blackheart handsome devil). It is also gig worthy, but does not have the clean power/headroom you describe. But if i only need clean with a bit of grit, it works fine too for gig volume. It's great for recording and practice though. And, I sometimes miss the sheer power you get from a 100 watt head and a half stack, but no often enough to want one again.

I guess, ultimately, a collection is what you need to cover all the bases. That or a pod and a power amp 3dgrw.


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## Clean Channel (Apr 18, 2011)

Deleted....


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Over the years i've come to realize, i'm an El34 man..i like it's tone. So with that in mind, 50w is almost the minimum power for a El34 amp..i've seen smaller, but still rare. I got 2 size..the Haft Stack, been a JMP 50w marshall with it's matching 4x12...there is something coming out of a 4x12 that CAN NEVER be reproduced with a combo...either 1x12 or 2x12. The straight, in your face Guh Guh Guh..hehe..no other word can describe it. AND..my other amp, JCM800 1x12...freaking little monster in a can. not to heavy and still sounds awsome for my style of music. I've had countless low watt combo, they just don't do it for me. Maybe that's one of the reason my hearing ain't so god already..


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

been reading this thread for a while now and there is ONE thing that no one seems to want to talk about.
The ONE thing has nothing to do about practicing, playing in your bedroom, recording etc.
It has everything to do about what you want to sound like as a band. Your sound...
Forget the nicked PA stuff...what do you sound like on stage playing your kind of music is the question.
Depending on the type of music you want to play, your stage volume has to reflect that style of music.
If it doesnt, I just dont know how you can get past that and enjoy it.

Bottom line...a jazz trio would have a different stage volume and amp/power needs that say a kick ass rock band.
For my taste, a jazz trio needs to sound like a jazz trio and a rock band better sound like a rock band.
As for the nicked amps and PA system, all they should ever do is make the stage volume louder so the rest of the audience can hear it better.
I know I come from a different era and am old school but even today, any band realy should have a particular sound that they are striving for. Its that sound that needs to be reproduced thru a PA system.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Astroman86 said:


> lol right master volume. maybe im over thinking all this, im starting to forget things when i learn new info.
> im looking for options number 2 there, vintage clean to overdrive. something thatll be loud and clean, but has some crunch. im alright with using my fuzz for dirt.


Another thing to consider (as if there aren't enough already) is whether you want a single-channel or a channel-switching amp. With a channel switcher, you set up crunch and clean and switch between. With a single, you set up your crunch and dial back your guitar volume for clean.

If your friends are telling you you need 50w or higher, I really need to ask, have any of them played a 50w tube amp at anything past 1 or 2 on the dial? You're asking about using a lower-wattage amp and cranking it, or using a 50w+ amp and attenuating it. I use a JTM45 that puts out about 37 watts and I have to attenuate the hell out of it in order to be in the same room as it when I have it running up at anything beyond 4 or 5. Tube amps are LOUD! Plus, most of that volume comes from the first couple of watts, not the last 50 or 100w. That just nets you headroom.

Maybe you should rent a 50w Marshall DSL 2000 and try it out to see what the volume is like and go from there?



mrmatt1972 said:


> I've played amps of all shapes and sizes, and I can honestly say a pair of 6l6 tubes in the power section (which is about 40 watts in most cases) is ideal for the sounds you describe above in _gigging _situations. My current one in that configuration is a Garnet stencil called a Mann, it's kind of the one that I think I'll keep forever... But, I love my 15 watt dual el84 amps too (currently a blackheart handsome devil). It is also gig worthy, but does not have the clean power/headroom you describe. But if i only need clean with a bit of grit, it works fine too for gig volume. It's great for recording and practice though. And, I sometimes miss the sheer power you get from a 100 watt head and a half stack, but no often enough to want one again.
> 
> I guess, ultimately, a collection is what you need to cover all the bases. That or a pod and a power amp 3dgrw.


For the 6L6 amps, I heartily recommned the Traynor YCV40. It's a great-sounding amp that you can easily find for $350-400 used. I had one for a while and loved it! I stupidly sold it to buy a vintage Traynor YGL3 that has since moved on, but I still think about re-acquiring a YCV40 as a grab-and-go. Only about 40 lbs, 40 watts of power, channel switching and built like a tank.



GTmaker said:


> been reading this thread for a while now and there is ONE thing that no one seems to want to talk about.
> The ONE thing has nothing to do about practicing, playing in your bedroom, recording etc.
> It has everything to do about what you want to sound like as a band. Your sound...
> Forget the nicked PA stuff...what do you sound like on stage playing your kind of music is the question.
> ...


I get what you're saying, but a rock band doesn't have to be stupid loud on stage. You certainly _can _be, and you might _want_ to be, but honestly, my band is trying hard to keep stage volume down. It makes it way easier to sing harmonies, hear everyone else and really play together without having to strain to hear yourself over a bassist thumping an 8x10. Having said that, we're not jazz trio quiet, but certainly not G'n'R loud either. But your point is a good one. Even if you narrow it down to 30-ish watts, you have a ton of amps to choose from (AC30, JTM45, Deluxe Reverb, etc.)


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

"I have a dream" . . . That someday, somewhere, someone will yell up from the audience "turn it up, we can't hear you"


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

Guitar101 said:


> "I have a dream" . . . That someday, somewhere, someone will yell up from the audience "turn it up, we can't hear you"


BAck in the good old days...especialy traveling out west, most clubs seated 300 - 500 drunk folks on a saturday night.
NEVER EVER heard "you are too loud"......


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

GTmaker said:


> BAck in the good old days...especialy traveling out west, most clubs seated 300 - 500 drunk folks on a saturday night.
> NEVER EVER heard "you are too loud"......


Were getting away from the post on amp size but I can't resist. "But would you have heard it if someone said it? I don't think so. The music was ..... too loud."
We used a 5 watt Epiphone Valve Jr for recording guitar parts for a few tunes. I really liked the sound. Our guitar player used his to play a small bar and there was lots of volume.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

I got an AC4 not too long ago.

i play it on 2 watts 80% of the time.

i find this is more than enough amp for me, volume wise. 

I have an AC15 too. the master rarely goes past 3/10 if it is, the the channel volume is cranked way down. even with the master at 3, far too loud. I need to finish my basement....


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## punt (Jul 9, 2011)

I agree totally with gtmaker. Depends on your music. 

In hardcore and the like, 30 watts aint gonna cut it. 

Most places dont mic the rigs, and alot of bands ive played with/know would rather crank their amps then mic in a smaller hall.
Hell a prime example is, if anyones familiar with cafe deckuf in ottawa(upstairs at mavericks).

Winnipegs own KENmode played their friday. 

Guitarists rig consisted of an orange head, a mesa triple rec, orange 4x10, mesa 4x12 and another unmarked cab. No mics. It was balls to the walls loud. Like i mean chest pounding loud. 
But sounded amazing. Cause thats their thing!

If they showed up with combos people would have asked questions and it wouldnt have been half the show it was! hey are supposed to be LOUD! So i guess it goes to your music.

Personally i like hearing my amp not a monitor.


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## mad dog (May 10, 2007)

It's tempting to generalize, but every amp has its own personality. My old Gibson GA40 does not sound small. A 14 watt amp, but it's in a tweed pro size cab (like the tweed tremolux), which eliminates that boxiness you often hear in smaller cabs. Clean headroom is somewhat beside the point with an amp such as this. It does have a clean sound, which you quickly leave behind when volume goes up. But the overdrive tone is the real point here.

By contrast, some larger amps have very nice OD sounds at rather reasonable volumes. Such as the Fender BF or SF Vibrolux Reverb. It's the smaller OT relative to the power. Put much bigger transformers with the same 2 6L6s, same power but the amp sounds completely different. In the 35 watt zone, you typically get enough volume for rather loud stage work, and at least the potential for reasonably loud clean. That can be changed by tube choice and especially speaker choice.
MD


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

What matters most to me, is how the band sounds to the audience. I have been lucky enough to be able to choose where and when I play. Even in small rooms I bring in enough gear to mic everything.

UHaving spent years as a FOH sound man, it's pretty evident to me that mic'ing smaller amps will tend to result in a better mix out front. 

I used mostly 4 X12 Marshalls in the 80s, but these days regardless of the size of the room I use either a modeler or a small combo (2 X 10 38 watt Dr Z). If I have to push that amp to the point where I've run out of clean head room.....I'm WAAAAAY TOOOO FREAKING LOUUD.


Anyway, these are as always, only my opinions.


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## CSBen (Mar 1, 2011)

I was just going to say Milkman...a "Maz 38" & "small combo" aren't two that I'd put together in the same sentence !! ESPECIALLY if you're using the Doc's 10" speaker @ 140w and over 103 dB efficiency!

Mic'in is THE way to go to get a good mix. There's nothing more dissapointing to have someone think that pushin' their 100w head through their 4x12 cab make it better. Never understood that.


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