# Niche Market? You tell me...



## _Knighthawk_ (Mar 2, 2014)

Hi everyone,

I have recently had discussions about producing a line of amplifiers. The idea was/is to provide a quality amplifier at a decent price. in an under-served niche in the market. 

One suggestion that I have been investigating: something like a hand-wired (P2P) Princeton Reverb (no trem) at a price point of $900-$999 (under $1k).

Question: Does anyone else see a niche market that is being under-served? I would love to hear your thoughts on this.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

The way I see it, those are the people (e.g. me) who would buy a used head (can get a good used head, sometimes a vintage one, for 500-1k+, less if you like old Traynors and live in Toronto). Maybe not many of their options are Fendery enough, which might leave you that niche.

If you really want to serve the budget market you gotta have a pricepoint of, like, 700 (maybe a bit more - new with warranty is worth something.... then again so is vintage mojo). Maybe P2P is not the way to go for that; that's a high end feature. More cost in labour AND the parts (e.g. axial vs radial caps) also cost more.

Basically if your head costs <1k, and I can get a Garnet with trem and reverb for 6-800, the choice is clear.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

What was that company, the guy's name was Randy iirc and he used torroidal transformers, who was doing all different flavours of generally smallish amps for low $$


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

A grab and go handwired tube Fender style amp for a grand would be right up my alley. Perfect pub gig, pedal platform amp. But for the little real estate it takes, I'd leave the trem. Its too good.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

keto said:


> What was that company, the guy's name was Randy iirc and he used torroidal transformers, who was doing all different flavours of generally smallish amps for low $$


Phaez?


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

My #2 amp is actually a cheap Pepco made p2p Princeton Reverb clone from 1973.


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## _Knighthawk_ (Mar 2, 2014)

RBlakeney said:


> Phaez?



I checked them out: Phaez Amps

Interesting array of amps for under $1K USD.


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## _Knighthawk_ (Mar 2, 2014)

cboutilier said:


> My #2 amp is actually a cheap Pepco made p2p Princeton Reverb clone from 1973.


Maybe someone should hunt down the original and buy out the name/brand!

(although there were many names used by the company for their amps)


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

_Knighthawk_ said:


> Maybe someone should hunt down the original and buy out the name/brand!
> 
> (although there were many names used by the company for their amps)


I'm the only one on the internet with a documented schematic for their take on the PR. There's a few values hidden by those pesky Ampeg style PEC "chips".


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

All Vintage Canadian P2P amps are still affordable... 

Might want to hold off till the market dries out or aim for the US market...


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

RBlakeney said:


> Phaez?


Indeed yes.


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## _Knighthawk_ (Mar 2, 2014)

Frenchy99 said:


> All Vintage Canadian P2P amps are still affordable...
> 
> Might want to hold off till the market dries out or aim for the US market...


I would consider it a great courtesy if you could relieve me of my ignorance by citing some of the vintage Canadian P2P amps that are still available. I am also ineresed in what you mean by affordable. Would this be under $1k?


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

_Knighthawk_ said:


> I would consider it a great courtesy if you could relieve me of my ignorance by citing some of the vintage Canadian P2P amps that are still available. I am also ineresed in what you mean by affordable. Would this be under $1k?


Traynor: $3-600
Garnet: $2-500
Pepco: $1-300


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

_Knighthawk_ said:


> would consider it a great courtesy if you could relieve me of my ignorance by citing some of the vintage Canadian P2P amps that are still available. I am also ineresed in what you mean by affordable. Would this be under $


!?!?

Like cboutillier mentioned above. You have Traynor since 1963. You have Garnet since 1964. Pepco from about 1958. Lifco short lived but in the 60's. .. and I'm missing several other brand name that disappeared in the 70s due to solid state amps...

All of these in the 50 watts category are below $500.00


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## sj250 (Oct 26, 2010)

As a current Phaez owner and previous owner of about 4 other Phaez amps I'd say Randy would be very hard to compete with. His options are endless, he will customize the amp in any way you request for very little charge and they all sound incredible. Now that being said, more choice is never a bad thing for us players. Also I'm assuming this would be a side project and not a main source of income which would be tough in some ways but would have other benefits like being able to keep overhead lower if you're working our if your garage or something. 

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## _Knighthawk_ (Mar 2, 2014)

Thanks guys.

@sj250 : You are exactly correct. My interest here would be exclusively as a secondary source of income...particularly as I contemplate retirement in 10 years or so.

I am also thinking about offering to build kits from around North America. I dont have any of this figured out yet....just thinking on it.


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

I had given this some thought too, building a cottage amp company. I gave up on the idea. The market is a tough one to break into without street cred. That will take considerable time. Sure you can build amps, but it feels like you are in a race to the lowest price. If you build your own cabs you have a better chance of making a little money over parts costs. If you actually pay yourself for your time invested you'll likely be priced out of the market in many instances. If you can build a combo amp, all parts and supply costs all-in for $900 CAD, and you can sell it for $1200 CAD you appear to be doing ok. Except that it takes many hours to hand build your own cabs. Let alone a well equipped shop with several pricey power tools. Then there is all the time to wire up and hand build the tube amp. Again, hours. If you look at the $300 profit over parts costs, and divide it by 30 hours of your time that's less than minimum wage. You still have a shop and tools to pay for. Your time and gas running to the hardware store for pine boards and baltic birch. The electrical bill. The solder. The boxes and shipping supplies. The time to pack it up. Take it to the post office. You've yet to pay the tax man too. What about liability insurance? Then possible warranty costs?

The parts suppliers keep putting their prices up. Freight costs continue to rise. Clone amp kits and builds are being made by the thousands every year buy folks who want to try their hand at it. I see an amp that I hand built last year for a member here, for sale. It's been listed a few times. I put a lot of time and skill into that amp. Hand made the pine cab. It's art. It sits while the seller asks for a fair price for it. It sounds great. I A/B'd it against my original 1959 5E3. Hard to hear a difference. Yet, no street cred. Just another 5E3 clone right? Y'all can get a crappy clone kit that's a mess for like $500, right? The internet, as great as it is, has also driven some markets into the dirt.

That's my little rant. I'm not bitter. I hand made 20 or so amps. I rebuilt and repaired a whole lot more. It was a ton of fun and I learned a lot. The small home built amp business model does not work for me. Maybe you can make a go of it. It won't hurt to try.

Some ideas on a niche amp to build? I don't think anyone is offering a 6G11 1x12 Brown Vibrolux type amp. One of my favourites. How about various forms of Princeton amps in head formats? 5F2A, 6G2, BF Reverb all in heads. I did build a 6G2 head for myself, it's wonderful. Good luck whatever you decide. - K

One of my builds, that I still enjoy today:


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Just fix amps, really really well. With a warranty and incredible customer service.


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## _Knighthawk_ (Mar 2, 2014)

@keithb7 

Thank you for such a thoughtful, extensive response. You have really hit on some core issues and given me a great deal to consider.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Kf


keithb7 said:


> I had given this some thought too, building a cottage amp company. I gave up on the idea. The market is a tough one to break into without street cred. That will take considerable time. Sure you can build amps, but it feels like you are in a race to the lowest price. If you build your own cabs you have a better chance of making a little money over parts costs. If you actually pay yourself for your time invested you'll likely be priced out of the market in many instances. If you can build a combo amp, all parts and supply costs all-in for $900 CAD, and you can sell it for $1200 CAD you appear to be doing ok. Except that it takes many hours to hand build your own cabs. Let alone a well equipped shop with several pricey power tools. Then there is all the time to wire up and hand build the tube amp. Again, hours. If you look at the $300 profit over parts costs, and divide it by 30 hours of your time that's less than minimum wage. You still have a shop and tools to pay for. Your time and gas running to the hardware store for pine boards and baltic birch. The electrical bill. The solder. The boxes and shipping supplies. The time to pack it up. Take it to the post office. You've yet to pay the tax man too. What about liability insurance? Then possible warranty costs?
> 
> The parts suppliers keep putting their prices up. Freight costs continue to rise. Clone amp kits and builds are being made by the thousands every year buy folks who want to try their hand at it. I see an amp that I hand built last year for a member here, for sale. It's been listed a few times. I put a lot of time and skill into that amp. Hand made the pine cab. It's art. It sits while the seller asks for a fair price for it. It sounds great. I A/B'd it against my original 1959 5E3. Hard to hear a difference. Yet, no street cred. Just another 5E3 clone right? Y'all can get a crappy clone kit that's a mess for like $500, right? The internet, as great as it is, has also driven some markets into the dirt.
> 
> ...


If it makes you feel any better, you have street cred in my eyes. I'd be first in line for that amp you made, but amp purchases are currently on the wife's radar.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Budda said:


> Just fix amps, really really well. With a warranty and incredible customer service.


@Budda has an excellent suggestion here. Once again, his analytical reasoning shines! Something worth at least considering.

You could limit your services to tube amps (if you preferred).
Your overheads should be substantially less ...especially if you have the electronics test & measurement equipment.
You would possibly only need to stock the most frequently needed components/parts.
You have several sources of supplies in Canada...many within the province.
Do you have any way to do this at home and not have the "public" going through your house to get to your repair bench? (e.g., a heated garage or direct entrance). 
It would be less life-threatening if no stairs were involved...LOL

Others that are more experienced in having a repair business and/or doing amp tech work will hopefully comment. 

Good Luck!


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

greco said:


> @Budda has an excellent suggestion here. Once again, his analytical reasoning shines! Something worth at least considering.
> 
> You could limit your services to tube amps (if you preferred).
> Your overheads should be substantially less ...especially if you have the electronics test & measurement equipment.
> ...


There is a growing shortage of amp techs. Don't believe me, find one under 30! I'm slowly training myself, through my own amps or friends', to become a competent tech. I have the education and skill set, but I lack the experience. I don't yet consider myself worthty of charging clients.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

cboutilier said:


> There is a growing shortage of amp techs.


@cboutilier What are your suggestions for @_Knighthawk_ in relation to considering opening an amp repair business? Thanks in advance for your response.



cboutilier said:


> Don't believe me, find one under 30!


99% of people under 30 wouldn't know what a tube looked like.


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## sammyr (May 7, 2013)

Just turned 30 here. Definitely get some shocked/puzzled looks when I first meet folks to talk amps/tubes because they assume I'm going to be older. With that said someone ballparked my age at 40-45 last week so I think balding seems to help.

In terms of starting a repair business, Greco makes a good point about having a way to serve clients without them having to come through your house especially if stairs are involved (liability). Getting started requires getting a decent meter and hand tools but beyond that depending on what sort of turnaround time you're hoping to offer you can keep stock of parts pretty limited and just order them as you need them. stocking up on some basics like resistors and common capacitor values isn't a bad idea though.

If you're comfortable with certain circuits start offering repairs/mods to the circuits you're comfortable with. As you learn more and get more experienced with those circuits and learn them inside and out it will be easier to take what you've learned and apply it to circuits you haven't necessarily worked on before. The key when getting started is to be clear what you're comfortable working on and what's out of your depth. You don't want to take something on and end up blowing up parts of it and having to sub it out to a more competent tech (i've been there and it's why i avoid most solid state stuff). Stay in your comfort zone, practice and read as much as possible. That's the best advice I can think of offhand.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

sammyr said:


> Just turned 30 here. Definitely get some shocked/puzzled looks when I first meet folks to talk amps/tubes because they assume I'm going to be older. With that said someone ballparked my age at 40-45 last week so I think balding seems to help.
> 
> In terms of starting a repair business, Greco makes a good point about having a way to serve clients without them having to come through your house especially if stairs are involved (liability). Getting started requires getting a decent meter and hand tools but beyond that depending on what sort of turnaround time you're hoping to offer you can keep stock of parts pretty limited and just order them as you need them. stocking up on some basics like resistors and common capacitor values isn't a bad idea though.
> 
> If you're comfortable with certain circuits start offering repairs/mods to the circuits you're comfortable with. As you learn more and get more experienced with those circuits and learn them inside and out it will be easier to take what you've learned and apply it to circuits you haven't necessarily worked on before. The key when getting started is to be clear what you're comfortable working on and what's out of your depth. You don't want to take something on and end up blowing up parts of it and having to sub it out to a more competent tech (i've been there and it's why i avoid most solid state stuff). Stay in your comfort zone, practice and read as much as possible. That's the best advice I can think of offhand.


I would I agree. Practice, read, read, practice, repeat. Get familiar with one or more of the common amps in your area. Personally I'd start with the Fender Hot Rod series amps, and get to know them well. Then learn your Marshall and Fender standards.


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## sammyr (May 7, 2013)

You'd actually be surprised what you can find at the public library. I found a couple of gerald weber tube amp books at my local library branch.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

sammyr said:


> Greco makes a good point about having a way to serve clients without them having to come through your house especially if stairs are involved (liability).


The reason I mentioned stairs was more about carrying heavy amps up and down the stairs with any frequency could be brutal. I didn't think of the potential liability issues..and it is an excellent point.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

@sammyr Are you doing amp repairs as a business? (just curious)


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

sammyr said:


> You'd actually be surprised what you can find at the public library. I found a couple of gerald weber tube amp books at my local library branch.


I'll have to check that out. My electronics education glossed over tubes and wemt right to SS and digital.


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## sammyr (May 7, 2013)

greco said:


> @sammyr Are you doing amp repairs as a business? (just curious)


Yessir. Although it's a very small business, I'm in the middle of an apprenticeship electrician so my spare time is limited. When I was 20 I started tinkering with my own gear and before I knew it my friends started bringing over their repairs and it snowballed from there. The reason I mention the liability is that I live and work out of my folks house and if someone were to trip and fall down the stairs to my work shop in a worst case scenario theoretically they could sue me and go after the assets in the house/the house. I don't expect anyone to do that but I figured better to cover my bases. Plus I like it here and my parents are very nice people.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

cboutilier said:


> I would I agree. Practice, read, read, practice, repeat. Get familiar with one or more of the common amps in your area. Personally I'd start with the Fender Hot Rod series amps, and get to know them well. Then learn your Marshall and Fender standards.


If you want some practice I can have some amp work for you!


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

RBlakeney said:


> If you want some practice I can have some amp work for you!


What do you need done?


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

cboutilier said:


> What do you need done?


I'll PM you when I get home from work!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

If you want to run it as a business, gotta register it as such. Tax, receipts, the whole deal.


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## sammyr (May 7, 2013)

the upside to getting a business number is you can get wholesale/dealer discounts from some suppliers. Mojotone at least.


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## nbs2005 (Mar 21, 2018)

As others have said, it's tough to make this work. I've seen it in auto and rally racing. Several shops tried to offer a suspension system for $1500 as compared to the $3-4000 most were charging. But almost all of them started charging the higher rate within a year or two (if they stayed around). There are only so many people who are interested in a rally suspension (really small number) or cool hand made tube amp (bigger number, but still small). Are you going to sell twice as many as the guy who charges double? And even if you do, you probably are making less money since your costs are going to be more to make more product. It's a tough road.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

cboutilier said:


> What do you need done?


Pm'd


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

sammyr said:


> I found a couple of gerald weber tube amp books at my local library branch.


I found the Gerald Weber DVD from my old library!!!  ( someone must have donated it ) I made a copy of it and its my go to video for Tube amp repairs ...


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

There are some ok things with the Gerald Weber stuff, but you don't really learn much. He'll tell you something to do but you won't find out why or much (real) theory behind it. Sort of like a paint by numbers approach. If that's all you're looking for, then I guess it's ok.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

jb welder said:


> He'll tell you something to do but you won't find out why or much (real) theory behind it. Sort of like a paint by numbers approach. If that's all you're looking for, then I guess it's ok.



Agreed, but I had to start to learn somewhere... I kept going on YouTube with Uncle Bob, guitarologist or something of the sort and several others.... I even watched United states military videos on the basics of tube amps !!!  Those were hard to watch without falling asleep !!! 

But, its with the paint by numbers that got me curious to learn more and try it myself.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Good point @Frenchy99 ! Agree it's a good way to 'get your feet wet', hopefully people who start there will dig in and learn more.


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

keithb7 said:


> I had given this some . ...........s? 5F2A, 6G2, BF Reverb all in heads. I did build a 6G2 head for myself, it's wonderful. Good luck whatever you decide. - K
> 
> One of my builds, that I still enjoy today:


This creation of years still haunts me today


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

sambonee said:


> This creation of years still haunts me today


Pretty sure I sold you my original 6G2 if I recall. This one you may covet, but it's not going anywhere. LOL.

Talking about servicing tube amps. I agree with the comments about having a better chance at succeeding. Less cash investment. Yet likely more time invested learning compared to building amps. In my experience it is way more challenging to troubleshoot bad amps, than build a new one. 

A few tools and a spot in the basement will get you going. As my amp tool inventory grew, word got out on the street locally that I focused on vintage Fender tube amp repairs. I had many come my way. Pretty much all by referrals. I tried to turn away a lot of other brands, as I am a fender geek. Still, a few other brands got through and I repaired them. Even a couple of solid state amps. Practice, practice, practice. Read, read, read. That's a good start. There are some great sites on the internet where real nice smart amp techs visit often and are happy to help out folks. 

My job is full time customer service for after sales support of heavy earthmoving equipment. I suppose the job helped train me how to treat my amp customers. They keep coming back. I learned a ton and built up my confidence. Its rewarding to see amps that I have repaired, rebuilt, or manufactured from scratch up, on a stage working when I walk into a bar. Amp repair is a fun hobby and you can actually earn a buck. There is some real head-scratcher, hacked up old amps out there. I was hell bent on getting them back to working like they did when new. I ripped out more than a few mods and found great tone in stock amps. Many folks are interested in having their 80's or 90's modded Blackface or Silverface amp put back to stock.

If you can believe it, I yanked all this out of a 1975 Twin Reverb. Some original old parts, but was also quite modded. Back to sounding amazing..Stock. well kinda. Wired it up to be a an early 70's non-master volume twin.


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

Yes I had your first one. I’ll have another. That ones in Montreal now.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

@keithb7 Excellent post above!

This pic looks like it contains enough components/parts to give one a good start on building something like a Champ...LOL










Another area combining electronics and music is Eurorack. It appears to be growing in popularity and the synth modules, racks, etc are being made as kits. My son-in-law is very interested in this type of thing.

This is a power supply kit he received recently and is bring to build at our place when he visits in June










This is Eurorack at its finest...









*Some* of the "modules", similar to some guitar pedals, are very basic builds.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

greco said:


> This is Eurorack at its finest...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw the exact same set up in an episode of Dr. Who !!!


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## copperhead (May 24, 2006)

Niche market ? possibly, depends on design & price i guess


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## _Knighthawk_ (Mar 2, 2014)

copperhead said:


> Niche market ? possibly, depends on design & price i guess


Yes, quite and so shaped my question. Suggestions? 

I've been very fortunate thus far to have had others share their thoughts. Would welcome hearing yours.


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