# New Dilemna, mic'ing guitar cabs



## Kapo_Polenton (Jun 20, 2007)

I've been playing with my SM57 and mic'ing my 4 x 12. I remembered the trick i used on my solid state amp and turned it facing the wall. The solid state amp came out clearer after eq'ing than my tube amps. For some reason I am getting allot of compression from the speakers and it sounds good, but it sounds a bit "soft" and not clear or sharp enough. Anyone have any tricks be it isolation boxes that are home made? Maybe stuck in the closet? hell maybe i should just use a palmer cab sim or something. Bloody annoying though.. its close but it just isn't "it" , the sound i am looking for. I suppose this is why the big studios have soo many sound proof rooms where they can crank the hell out of the amp.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

i built this-










cost me 7$ at the lumber yard, guy cut the sizes i needed from scrap mdf-
it has doors and does good at making things quiet.
it doesnt work good with that condensor mic in the pic- works ok with an sm57- but i find the sound is better if its outside the box- the condensor mic really makes it sound like an amp in a box- and the sm57 tho better still doesnt sound great- if i stuffed blankets and pillows in tho i bet it would be perfect-
i find the sm57 needs to be set at an offset angle to the speaker to sound its best- about 2-3 inches from speaker and pointing at a 45 degree angle, rather thn straight at the speaker.


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## Kapo_Polenton (Jun 20, 2007)

Looks good.. but essentially what you are saying is that the sounds you get are still just "ok"? Is there any mic that you like better than condenser or sm57? I currently have my mic just off center and on a slight angle.. just something missing.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

well without the box- the sm57 is great- but usually if im recording with an amp just in the room out of the box i use 2 mics- i put an sm58 or that condenser a few feet away- that works great- have yu tried 2 mics yet? 
you could mic seperate speakers- yu aim it offset to the cones remember, not the whole cab
or try one in front, one at the back, or a distance away to capture the sound of the amp and the amp in a room- 
my problem with the box idea was that it kinda sounded like an amp in a box lol- the bass sound was wrong, no depth,
lacking any real punch or complexity.
maybe the sound of just the one mic on the speaker is lacking depth- you could try setting the mic further away too if yu havent already-
the only quality mics i have are the sm57, sm58 and that condensor which is an apex- 
i have a few cheap realistics and a chinese knockoff of a sm58 - any of those is satisfactory just to capture the sound of the room-
and i guess every amp sounds different, and needs to be miced different depending on the room- another musical frustration

like i say tho- if i insulate that box to deaden its sound, maybe then id get nice results- i havent done it yet, but if/ when i do ill let ya know how it goes

edit- sometimes there are phase problems with 2 mics- my soundcard is able to reverse the polarity of each input, so in a 2 mic situation i go left with one, right with other, and adjust the polarity if its needed thru the software-
personally tho, before i had this soundcard phase/polarity problems, if they happened, i didnt notice it.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2007)

You know you so want to borrow my PGA-04. :smile:


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## Kapo_Polenton (Jun 20, 2007)

lol.. yeah but trying to resist the cab sims!! I think maybe another thing for me is the way speakers with early breakup record. Maybe the reason my old sound was better was because i had well broken in celestion g12t-100's. (only come in 4 ohm) ..this meant less breakup and probably smoother when distorted. G12h30's have that raspiness and greenbacks or their clones have that bit of fizziness. Standing in front of the cab at least now i have broken them in reasonably well, but recorded, I still hear that comined with this compression which annoys me. 

Iaresee can you record some clips with your palmer? How about some clean, light overdrive, chunk, screaaaaaming british steele heavy metal? I am just interested in hearing the guitars out of a mix.


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## Guest (Dec 1, 2007)

Kapo_Polenton said:


> Iaresee can you record some clips with your palmer? How about some clean, light overdrive, chunk, screaaaaaming british steele heavy metal? I am just interested in hearing the guitars out of a mix.


It'll take me a while. Not too much time to record these days with a newborn in the apartment. But give me a week or two and your clips you shall have.


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## Kapo_Polenton (Jun 20, 2007)

Congrats! I didn't realise it was soo soon after you had told me you were expecting a young gaffer that the stork would have delivered. Boy or girl? 

I think it might be the sm57. It colours tone.. i messed around for another hour and i am not digging it. Maybe a fender recording amp is in order!! lofu


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

that PGA-04 sure looks like a nice thing to have.
because i wasnt happy with the sound of the amp inside my iso box, and i cant sit around with my amps cranked all night (even tho theyre small)
i got a pod- with the pc editing software i can get decent sounds- but a live amp is still better-
kapo is the sound you are getting on the recording really different from the sound you hear while playing, or is the actual sound of your speakers not satisfying? if so, then multiple micing is something you might want to try-
i know the last time i miced a 4x12 (long years ago lol) i needed to mic 2 speakers individually, with another mic about 5 feet away to capture the sound of the cab- a small single speaker amp is certainly easier to mic, but may not give you the tone you like-


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## Kapo_Polenton (Jun 20, 2007)

Mainly the tone i hear through the mic is not what i like. Seems smooth enough "live' to me but i guess the mic does not lie. I also think that stock, this Laney Pro tube maxxed out with my attenuator and with some overdrive is just a fizzy amp. Just like some of those JCM800's can be fizzy, so is this thing. I need to get my plexi clone back up and running and try that to see if there is a diff. Other than that, i might also go back through the speakers in my old solid state martial and see if there is a diff. Need to isolate the problem: 

1. speakers?
2. the amp
3. the sm57 colouring

When i listen to other people's clips, some are good, others are fizzy or compressed like mine. Somewhere something is making a difference.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

i dont think its the sm57- thats a good mic, people use it because it doesnt colour the sound much, and if so in a favourable way- 
i would think that an attenuated large amp will not give you a great sound tho- when i tried an attenuater i got a sound as well that was fizzy-
when i think of a fizzy distortion sound, i think of an amp that is meant to be cranked, but is not, such as an attenuated one, or something done with a modeler.
maybe if you tried a different cab with a single speaker and put it in a closet or cover it with jackets or something, some way to crank the amp and drive the speaker?


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## Guest (Dec 2, 2007)

Kapo_Polenton said:


> Congrats! I didn't realise it was soo soon after you had told me you were expecting a young gaffer that the stork would have delivered. Boy or girl?


Boy! His name is Liam. He was born on Nov. 3rd. Allow me to show off for second:












> I think it might be the sm57. It colours tone.. i messed around for another hour and i am not digging it. Maybe a fender recording amp is in order!! lofu


Maybe it's time for a Royer?  I've only used one once, but it was sublime. The tube-based SSL desk it was running into might have helped as well. Do you mean the new Fender Princeton? That thing looks sweet but I think it's over priced. The demo on Gearwire makes it sound nice. Have they started to show up on the used market yet?


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

cute little feller with a good scottish name, not unlike my own-
congrats
:food-smiley-004:


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## Kapo_Polenton (Jun 20, 2007)

Does that mic ever go on sale?? Say, 1200$ off regular price? lol.. you may have a point about attenuation.. I have been working on my amp tonight so hopefully within the next few days i can see if there is a diff. 

Iaresee, Liam looks like a healthy young lad.. instead of playing mozart and the classics, see if bringing him up on some Zeppelin has the same positive effect! As long as his mom doesn't like the SPice Girls he should turn out just fine! :smile:


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## Kapo_Polenton (Jun 20, 2007)

I'm going to look into some afordeable ribbon mics though... i'll report back to report on what i find.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2007)

*Finally! Clips!*

The little guy is starting to sleep longer at night, the wife is in bed, I'm on holidays: why not record those clips I promised of the Palmer PGA-04? Here you go. All this was done at what would be ear bleeding volumes, completely silent with the wife and 8 week old sleeping the next room, after midnight, in an apartment in suburbia. Audio was captured at 24bit/96kHz using an M-Audio 2496 and a Yamaha MX10 mixer. Recorded, mixed and mastered in Cubase SX3, converted to 320 kbps MP3 in Sony SoundForge 8.

*Guitars:*

'95 Paul Reed Smith Standard 24, Duncan JB in the bridge, Dragon I in the neck
mid-'90's Gibson Les Paul Special, Lindy Fralin P-90s

*Amp:*

Koch TwinTone, mix of GT and Mesa tubes in the preamp, Shuguang EL34s in the power amp section

*Clips:*

 *PGA Demo - Wet (9 MB)* - Added stereo reverb in the mixdown using the most excellent RoomWorks plugin, otherwise no additional processing.
 *PGA Demo - Dry (9 MB)* - Same as above minus the reverb plugin, it's just the mono signal.

*Clip Details:*

 *0:00 - 0:34*
 PRS on setting 9 (bridge + neck PU, split, parallel), Volume - 10, Tone - 10
 Koch clean channel, volume at about 40%, 25W mode
 PGA Settings: Level - 8, Filter Low - 5, Filter High - 5, Colour Switch - Lite, no unfiltered signal

 *0:35 - 2:08*
 Same riff, cycling through the PRS rotary pickup settings starting out on the neck PU and ending up on the bridge PU (note the JB's output level is massive compared to the Dragon), Volume - 10, Tone - 10
 Koch clean channel, volume at about 40%, 25W mode
 PGA Settings: Level - 8, Filter Low - 5, Filter High - 5, Colour Switch - Brown, no unfiltered signal

 *2:09 - 2:26*
 LP Special, neck PU, Volume - 2, Tone - 10
 Koch overdrive channel, gain at 50%, volume at 50%, 25W mode
 PGA Settings: Level - 8, Filter Low - 5, Filter High - 5, Colour Switch - Brown, no unfiltered signal

 *2:26 - 2:43*
 LP Special, neck PU, Volume - 2, Tone - 10, bridge PU, Volume - 10, Tone - 10
 Koch overdrive channel, gain at 50%, volume at 50%, 25W mode
 PGA Settings: Level - 8, Filter Low - 5, Filter High - 5, Colour Switch - Brown, no unfiltered signal

 *2:44 - 3:59*
 LP Special, bridge PU, Volume - 10, Tone - 10
 Koch overdrive channel, gain at 50%, volume at 50%, 25W mode
 PGA Settings: Level - 8, Filter Low - 5, Filter High - 5, Colour Switch - Brown, no unfiltered signal


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## Kapo_Polenton (Jun 20, 2007)

Holy smokes! Those are the best clips of the Palmwer I have heard to date. For a minute i had forgotten I was supposed to be evaluating the Palmer and was thinking "damn, the Koch sounds freakin good!" On chords you really can't tell that much. On individual notes I think you can catch the tone being slightly "rounder" but damn, it really sounds good. I am very impressed. Leaves me to beleive that many of the otehr demos I have heard just plain suck. I wonder though, does the 09 little hand held unit that you connect to the speaker sound this good? The rack unit definitely sounds good. 

PS_ I see why you like that Koch soo much now


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2007)

Kapo_Polenton said:


> Holy smokes! Those are the best clips of the Palmwer I have heard to date.


Really? Thanks. The stuff Ed DeGennaro posts on TGP is freaking amazing. I'm a fraction of the player he is. Unfortunately he always posts complete songs. The unit is definitely easier to use if you add a little verb on the insert. It can be a little weird to play along to a bone dry signal in cans.



> For a minute i had forgotten I was supposed to be evaluating the Palmer and was thinking "damn, the Koch sounds freakin good!" On chords you really can't tell that much. On individual notes I think you can catch the tone being slightly "rounder" but damn, it really sounds good. I am very impressed.


Rounder is a good way to describe it. I definitely EQ the amp differently when I'm using the PGA than when I'm running into a real speaker. I've always contended that you treat as a special, different cabinet. It's not your cab. It's another cab. I think too many people plug in and expect it to sound the same as their V30-loaded 1970 Marshall cab. The other thing that can be hard to get a handle on is it's basically another set of tone knobs to fiddle with. The Filter Low and Filter High dials do crazy things to the sound. Combine that with the Brown/Lite Colour Switch and you've got an incredibly array of sounds to move through. The older PGA-03 unit has three position switches instead of dials for Filter Low and Filter High so it's a little less tweakable which is good or bad depending on your personality.

And then there's the Unfilitered section on unit. For cleans it's an amazing little weapon: you can add this unfiltered signal in with the filtered signal and it gets all sparkley and spanky. Doesn't work for overdrive, it just gets fizzy, but for cleans you can create some really amazing country type tones by blending the filtered and unfiltered signals.



> Leaves me to beleive that many of the otehr demos I have heard just plain suck. I wonder though, does the 09 little hand held unit that you connect to the speaker sound this good? The rack unit definitely sounds good.


I've never used it. I have used the PGA-04 in pass-through mode. Where the unit was sitting between my amp and my speaker and feeding the board a filtered, direct line while I was also capturing a mic'ed signal. Sounded the same as when the PGA-04 load was in use. The little 09 box can be had pretty cheap on eBay -- about the price of a good DI. So it's low risk to try it out. I also see PGA-04 on TGP from time to time for ~$300. They retail new at Saved By Technology in Toronto for like $700.



> PS_ I see why you like that Koch soo much now


Yea, it's really is great amp. I'm looking forward to building that extension cab so I can mix and match speakers with it. The Jensen on the clean channel and a V30 on the overdrive channel. I'm a V30 junkie. :smile:


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

hey, sounds good- with the reverb it sure doesnt sound like your playing silently late at night. really like the sound you got at 2:26 - 2:43. sounds like youve sure solved the problem-
on an ironic note, ive been cranking the weezer blue album to drown out the sounds of my arguing neighbours for the last week- hadnt listened to it in a few years before that. :smile:


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2008)

fraser said:


> hey, sounds good- with the reverb it sure doesnt sound like your playing silently late at night. really like the sound you got at 2:26 - 2:43. sounds like youve sure solved the problem-


Thanks fraser. That two-pickup P-90 sound has really been just killing it for me lately. I love that LP Special now that it's got P-90s in it. Something is still not 100% with the setup. I'm waiting on a bit of kit from Stewie-Mac to help me out with checking the neck.



> on an ironic note, ive been cranking the weezer blue album to drown out the sounds of my arguing neighbours for the last week- hadnt listened to it in a few years before that. :smile:


Ha! Yea, I dug the album out just before Christmas to learn a few tracks for a cover band audition I have coming up in January. It just happened to be in my head. I dig Cuomo's solo on Say It Ain't So. Tastefully restrained.


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