# Significant Volume drop with Push-Pull pots splitting humbuckers to single coils



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I recently rewired a guitar to allow for 2 push-pull volume pots to split the 2 humbuckers to single coils.
The information below (in green) is specific to the different wiring configurations of Ibanez Super '58 pickups (which are the humbuckers being split in this guitar). The diagram below that is what I followed for the wiring. This guitar also only has 1 tone pot, as in the diagram.

The pickups measure approximately 7.o K DCR each and the pulled/single coil measurements are around 3.6 K DCR each...very reasonable readings to expect.

*However, in the single coil mode the volume drops by well over 50% on each pickup !!!!*

I have read all sorts of articles and understand the volume drop form HB to SC is not unusual, that some humbuckers split better than others and on, and on, and on.

Anyone have any suggestions?

I am now totally lost and the owner of the guitar is, logically, disappointed with the results.
He knows of the results as he is a friend of Laristotle (GC member) who is acting as an "intermediary"
and Laristotle has played the guitar and informed him of the significant volume drop.

Thanks in advance for any comments and/or suggestions.

Cheers

Dave

I just posted this as an answer to someone's question in another section, but I thought it might be helpful, in general, to anyone.

What I generally do, is to equate the Super 58 wiring to Seymour Duncans. That way, you can just use any of the great Duncan wiring diagrams they have on their website. Ibanez doesn't seem to supply a Jetking wiring diagram, so no loss there.

This gets a little tricky because the Super 58 has the neck magnet flipped. So the bridge and neck pups have slightly different wiring. Here's how Duncan and Super 58's match up:










Note that on a Duncan, you'ld tie the bare wire and green together to ground, red and white together and taped off, and then black to hot. To split the pickups you'ld switch the red/white combo to ground, which would give you both stud coils. However, while they would be in-phase, they would *not* be noise-cancelling.

On the Super 58's, you do bridge and neck differently.

Bridge: Blue and bare together to ground.
Black and white together and taped off.
Red to hot output.

Neck: White and bare to ground.
Red and blue together and taped off.
Black to hot output.

Now, to split these, you'ld short the bridge's black and white to ground, and the necks red and blue to ground. This gives you the stud coils, in-phase *and* noise cancelling.

Its a nice system once you get the wiring sorted out. Hope this helps someone.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

Could wire a boost into the guitar...so it switches on when switched to SC...make only enough to even out the levels

But what you found is right...you wont split an HB without volume loss


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Error..Sorry


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

ezcomes said:


> Could wire a boost into the guitar...so it switches on when switched to SC...make only enough to even out the levels
> 
> But what you found is right...you wont split an HB without volume loss


Any suggestions as to an example of a boost in a very small format that could be considered?


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2015)

For the record, the owner is not disappointed because of Dave's work.
It's the nature of the pickups, that's all. He had these S 58's laying around
and the active's in this guitar went out on him. Thus, the change.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

greco said:


> Any suggestions as to an example of a boost in a very small format that could be considered?


how about something like this?










simple circuit, easily sourced parts.
you could tweak c1 and c2 for the flattest response-


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Had you considered a series/parallel switching configuration rather than dual/single coils? Parallel wiring will deliver more output, hum canceling, and single coil 'ish tone... at least more so than an isolated coil.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

dradlin said:


> Had you considered a series/parallel switching configuration rather than dual/single coils? Parallel wiring will deliver more output, hum canceling, and single coil 'ish tone... at least more so than an isolated coil.


This... probably the best option to get some single coil character but not loose so much output.


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## Guest (Nov 20, 2015)

I'm going to suggest that to him.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

It's just the nature of the pups, compare a Lester to a strat and there's always a noticeable volume difference. If there wasn't then they wouldn't sound the way they're intended to. Just as an example I have a PRS 408, when the pups are tapped they're designed to add 1500 turns to the single to prevent volume loss. What it does is make it sound more like a P90 than a strat style pup though just because of the output. There is no 1 guitar that can do everything, which is awesome because it gives us excuses to buy more


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Interesting that this approach is being suggested. This is the only other alternative that I have had any real confidence in, apart from the boost circuit, so far and *this is only from my reading on the topic and not based on any experience.*

I have read comments about the series/parallel tone switching being terrible, etc (fully understanding that one can read ANYTHING on the internet....believing...well....) and I really hate to go to all the work of pulling this apart if I ("We"...LOL) are not fairly sure of the results. 

My old favourite saying is..._"A long run... for a short slide"_ (you might have to be older for that to make any sense??!!).

Chitmo and others are correct...it is unlikely that we can win on all fronts.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

dradlin said:


> Had you considered a series/parallel switching configuration rather than dual/single coils? Parallel wiring will deliver more output, hum canceling, and single coil 'ish tone... at least more so than an isolated coil.


+1 I've done this in a few guitars and always had a really good result. Single cool spank and sparkle, but still hum cancelling and more output to boot. I'll never coil cut again. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## lovetoplay (Nov 8, 2013)

I have a PRS DGT that has a big volume drop when split to single coil mode. More recent DGT's have a 2.2K resistor on the bridge tap and a 1.1K on he neck tap. This apparently let's a little bit of signal from the coil that is cut out to bleed through and reduces the amount of the volume drop while still sounding like single coils. I haven't done this mod yet by I will soon. There are wiring diagrams on the PRS site. This might be worth a try with the SD pickups.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

that LPB circuit was exactly what i was going to suggest...its small, could still fit a 9 volt into the gutiar cavity...and use the push pull to turn the power on/off too (thus keeping battery life)


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Thank for all of the suggestion/comments.

The owner has decided that he would like to try the series/parallel switching as shown in the most recent wiring diagram. I will update this thread when I have finished the wiring. However, that could be quite some time as life is busy at the moment.

Cheers

Dave


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

The wiring is done. I found some time after doing the project around the house that I had to do.

The tone sounds a bit thin to me in parallel mode, but I guess that is to be expected 

However, there is not near as much volume drop. Thank goodness! 

Cheers

Dave


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2015)

Way to go Dave!
I always had faith in you.
Thank you buddy!
Don thanks you too.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Thanks laristotle!

I'll be taking a break from push-pull pots for a bit...LOL


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

AN UPDATE:

The owner of the guitar was not pleased with the results of the series/parallel switching for a variety of reasons. I don't blame him...I wouldn't have been happy either.

Laristotle brought the guitar to my place today and we looked at it together. We did several meter readings to check the wiring configurations and tried (many) various changes to the wiring. 
No real success..DAMN!!

We ended up coming to the conclusion that the pickups just don't sound good after finally wiring them in the "standard" way without any switching.

My thanks to Laristotle for helping with today's attempts to try to make the guitar sound reasonable.


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## Taylor (Oct 31, 2014)

Out of curiosity, what's the value of the push-pulls? A500K? B500K? A250K? Won't impact the volume drop, but might account for some of the tonal unpleasantness when the buckers are split or parallelled.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Thanks for your comment.

The push-pulls were 500K. I'm not sure if they were log or linear. 
The tones were "sitar-like" in nature..... as described by the owner.
"Thin and trebly" would be my description.

Cheers

Dave


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2015)

I mucked around with it this morning Dave.
I found our problem. We had the polarity of the screw coil reversed.
Blue '+', Yellow '-'. That's for the Bridge pup. I'll do the neck tomorrow.
I went with this post on Talk Bass. It's the one way we didn't try. lol.
http://www.talkbass.com/threads/ibanez-roadstar-ii-pickup-wiring-help.699909/


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Part of the issue with splitting a humbucker or wiring the two coils in parallel is the actually _individual_ DC resistance of the coils. If they're very similar, say two 3.5-4 DC coils giving you a 7-8 DC humbucker, then you end up with thin-sounding pickups when you split or parallel. 

If you can source a good humbucker with mismatched coils, say a 5DC and 3DC giving you 8DC in series, then you get a beefier single coil sound when you split or parallel wire. I got a couple good sets of mismatched coil humbuckers designed for this application specifically from Jon Moore and they worked great. I wouldn't say the sound got "thin" in parallel mode so much as it shifted its "weight" from mid-bass to the upper mid and treble regions.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

laristotle said:


> I mucked around with it this morning Dave.
> I found our problem. We had the polarity of the screw coil reversed.
> Blue '+', Yellow '-'. That's for the Bridge pup. I'll do the neck tomorrow.
> I went with this post on Talk Bass. It's the one way we didn't try. lol.
> http://www.talkbass.com/threads/ibanez-roadstar-ii-pickup-wiring-help.699909/


Excellent find laristotle! 

Hats off to you!









*This is great news!!!!!*
Thanks for taking the time to pursue it even further
Wouldn't you know that about the only thing we didn't test ended up being the problem!!!

How does it sound????
Better than wired in the "Standard" format????
I hope it is much better.....obviously.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

hollowbody said:


> Part of the issue with splitting a humbucker or wiring the two coils in parallel is the actually _individual_ DC resistance of the coils. If they're very similar, say two 3.5-4 DC coils giving you a 7-8 DC humbucker, then you end up with thin-sounding pickups when you split or parallel.
> 
> If you can source a good humbucker with mismatched coils, say a 5DC and 3DC giving you 8DC in series, then you get a beefier single coil sound when you split or parallel wire. I got a couple good sets of mismatched coil humbuckers designed for this application specifically from Jon Moore and they worked great. I wouldn't say the sound got "thin" in parallel mode so much as it shifted its "weight" from mid-bass to the upper mid and treble regions.


Excellent advice for anyone contemplating this in the future!
Thanks for posting the details.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2015)

greco said:


> Excellent find laristotle!
> 
> Hats off to you!


Oh .. there's the hat.

*


greco said:



This is great news!!!!!

Click to expand...

*


greco said:


> Thanks for taking the time to pursue it even further
> Wouldn't you know that about the only thing we didn't test ended up being the problem!!!
> 
> How does it sound????
> ...


It started by disconnecting the pup and clipping on an old 'bucker I have laying around
to make sure the pot's aren't defective. Sounded fine with that. When it came to hooking
the 58 back up, I followed the link that I posted. Eureka!


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

*laristotle...You are killin' me with suspense here !!

How do the '58's sound? (on a scale of 1 to 10 using any of your favourite humbuckers as the comparison).*

I feel a bit embarrassed that I missed that simple error after all the time we both put into the pickup swap, wiring the pots and researching about the wire colours and configurations. All this wasted time rests squarely on my shoulders, my friend. However, we tried our best and you solved it...that is the main thing. Now the owner can finally enjoy his guitar.


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2015)

I'm not done yet.
For testing, I'm using my micro marshall on the edge of my desk.
Can't get a true sense of how it compares with other pup's, yet.
Once it's all buttoned up, I'll plug it into a better amp for a proper run through.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

laristotle said:


> I'm not done yet.


Thanks for the quick response. 
Not to worry....I have some meds that I can take to help calm the suspense.

Again....Congrats! 

I'm taking a break from push/pull pots for awhile..just in case anyone asks you...LOL


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## Guest (Dec 16, 2015)

greco said:


> I'm taking a break from push/pull pots for awhile..just in case anyone asks you...LOL


I don't blame you. lol.


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## JHarasym (Mar 27, 2007)

deleted: redundant


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

@*JHarasym*.....something similar was posted by *hollowbody*...it might be of interest to you.

It was decided to stay with series/parallel after Laristotle sorted out my wiring error.

Cheers

Dave




hollowbody said:


> Part of the issue with splitting a humbucker or wiring the two coils in parallel is the actually _individual_ DC resistance of the coils. If they're very similar, say two 3.5-4 DC coils giving you a 7-8 DC humbucker, then you end up with thin-sounding pickups when you split or parallel.
> 
> If you can source a good humbucker with mismatched coils, say a 5DC and 3DC giving you 8DC in series, then you get a beefier single coil sound when you split or parallel wire. I got a couple good sets of mismatched coil humbuckers designed for this application specifically from Jon Moore and they worked great. I wouldn't say the sound got "thin" in parallel mode so much as it shifted its "weight" from mid-bass to the upper mid and treble regions.


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## Guest (Dec 17, 2015)

I kept it S/P. I'd figure the owner would be happier with that sound instead of the split coil.

@Dave. The error was not yours. We just didn't have the proper diagrams.


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