# Open Letter From a Bar Owner to Musicians



## Guitar101

My son sent me this link today.

Open Letter From a Bar Owner to Musicians

Maybe together we can figure out the "secret" to the following quote from the bar owner.

"_There is a sales technique I’m seeing that’s impressive, stands out and really works, but out of respect for the bands that figured it out, call it a trade secret."_


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## mhammer

Interesting. It clearly, and I think fairly, represents one particular approach to live music venues. But that's also its biggest weakness: it represents what one kind of establishment and owner expects from the musicians, _as employees_, and tends to neglect why they are, and continue to be, _musicians_. Certainly, musicians who play in such places serve their own ends by allowing the business establishment to thrive and thus rehire them (or heck, even pay them in the first place). They also serve their own community by behaving in a professional manner. But the singular focus on selling booze is not only narrow-minded, it is also irresponsible. Should the band do the sort of thing that gets patrons to spend money because they are enjoying themselves? You betcha. But doing the functional equivalent of standing at a mic and yelling "Chug, chug, chug..." is an insult both to the musician AND the patrons. The bar owner needs to figure out some means of generating revenue that does NOT depend on people becoming drunk. If the band is good enough, and the venue comfortable enough to listen to live music in, that people don't mind springing a couple of bucks at the door on top of buying a beer or two, a coke, and a plate of somewhat overpriced nachos, that's alright. Relying nearly exclusively on booze for revenue is simply poor planning, and narrow vision.


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## smorgdonkey

The bitter truth ogf the matter is that the booze sales is where the money is made regardless of how overpriced the nachos are.I'm sure the sales of coke and pepsi would make a lot of coin but at those prices people will just drink the booze!!

I found it an interesting read and I couldn't find much to argue with in it. I do recall that when I was doing a bit of club stuff that it was pretty ego driven although it wasn't really looked at from that perspective at the time. Looking back, it was all about us and we didn't consider much about the business stuff. The fact is that everyone thinks that bars are making a killing and 'can afford to pay better' for bands. I just don't know how true that is.


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## djmarcelca

I've been on both sides
Musician
MAnagment
Nightclub DJ

I'll tell you this: 
The letter author is 1000000% correct.

He doesn't look at musicicans as employees, He looks at them like sub-contractors. Same as I did.
And Bars live and die on Booze sales.

As a Dj I have to announce Drink specials every 45 mins 
As a Musician I _SHOULD_ announce drink specials at the beginning and end of every set. 
As a manager; I watched how they treated my P.A, treated my waitresses, and above all entertained my Customers.
If they got the girls up dancing, the men buy drinks.
If my DJ makes more people dance in between sets and the band is being background noise...... something is up.

Bar Patrons are RARELY at a bar to listen to a specific DJ or Watch a specific band. There are exceptions but mostly;
They are there to Get hammered, and get laid. 

If a band has a following that's a drinking crowd, I would love them
But most cases, it's a water crowd. 

When I was managing a bar, my entertainment Budget was No More than 1000.00 total per weekend.
Usually went 800.00 to the band
200.00 in bar tabs to be auctioned/given away by my DJ or the Band.


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## FrankyNoTone

Guitar101 said:


> Maybe together we can figure out the "secret" to the following quote from the bar owner.
> 
> "_There is a sales technique I’m seeing that’s impressive, stands out and really works, but out of respect for the bands that figured it out, call it a trade secret."_


I thank my lucky stars that I don't depend on my guitar playing to make money... although I might submit a demo track to Dyson as a new vacuum invention.

In any event, my guess of this "trade secret" is a video of the band playing to a happy packed house where everyone is dancing and drinkin'.


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## Milkman

So playing bars is all about selling booze.


Wow, what a revelation.


I'm shocked. All these years I figured it was about the art.:food-smiley-004:


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## mhammer

Well it's about booze AND art.

I think the problem is that there are way more bands than there are places that focus on art, with the result that making a living as a musician (or at least paying off your gear, or justifying the racket you make in the basement while your parents are trying to watch _Jeopardy_) means you have to end up playing places where booze sales are the focus.

Changing one's frame-of-reference on a dime IS hard to do. People work out a set of original or obscure material that works for them and keeps them motivated between gigs by how great it sounds to _*them*_, and may not have other planned sets of covers or popular material that complements the business model of the establishment where they happen to be booked. And to some extent, I can understand that some musicians may justifiably feel that their "brand" is negatively affected if they intersperse gigs where their own material is highlighted, with gigs where they play fluffy dances tunes that may well reflect entirely different genres than their own material.

I suppose the bar owner needs to be clear on what they need from bands that play at their establishment, bands need to not delude themselves into taking gigs that are inappropriate for their musical objectives, and both sides need to bend a little.

In the sciences, you often see a sharp division between the folks who do "pure" science, and those who do highly applied commercial work. The former think of the latter as whores. But there is a happy medium where one can explore issues of basic science within applied contexts. And I think the same compromise can exist in music. It IS possible to do covers of popular tunes that allow one to explore musical ideas while not alienating bar patrons. If they can still recognize it, and still dance to it, but you've made it interesting for yourself as a band, then it's win-win. Heck, if Jeff Beck can play Lady Gaga's "Bad Romance" as an encore tune, then why can't YOU?

However, I am still a little sceptical of a business model predicated on pumping the most alcohol into the most people. It's not exactly healthy. Surely there have to be better business models than that.


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## Milkman

What it comes down to for me, is that I dislike booze. Mostly I dislike the way it makes people behave.

I decided a few years ago that I would no longer play music to sell booze. I don't like a lot of the material I would have to play to satisfy that market and life is too short for me to play music I dislike just to make a buck.

That's not intended to be a judgement of those who do. 

I did it successfully for decades. I just got tired of booze being more important than music.

Now, I play selected shows only and I play what I love, or I don't play.

Selfish? Yup.


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## mhammer

Not selfish. Self-*aware*.


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## kat_

I don't even like going to the kind of bars this guy is talking about. I realize they exist but I don't understand the appeal of them. I'd rather go pay a $10 cover, order a decent meal (not nachos), have a good beer (maybe 2), and listen to a good band. There are plenty of places aimed at people like me and they seem to be doing okay. A cover band trying to make people dance and get drunk wouldn't go over well in those sorts of places. It's all about knowing which rooms to play in.


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## Milkman

kat_ said:


> I don't even like going to the kind of bars this guy is talking about. I realize they exist but I don't understand the appeal of them. I'd rather go pay a $10 cover, order a decent meal (not nachos), have a good beer (maybe 2), and listen to a good band. There are plenty of places aimed at people like me and they seem to be doing okay. A cover band trying to make people dance and get drunk wouldn't go over well in those sorts of places. It's all about knowing which rooms to play in.


I agree, and furthermore, as a warm body in a seat, I also MUCH prefer paying a cover to support a band I enjoy to sitting there listening to stuff that mostly appeals to drunk dancers and their boyfriends.


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## torndownunit

I saw a good point in some facebook comments on this article. The professionalism should go both ways. If a bar isn't providing a decent setup for live bands, than they shouldn't be picky about who they are getting. A lot of bars just aren't equipped for live music, decide to have it anyway, then blame the band for any issues.

I can't disagree with a lot of what the guy is saying though, especially regarding musicians acting professional. Even if you are playing a free open mic you should be considerate to the other people playing and the venue. 

The sad part is from an 'art' perspective there needs to be venues where 'off the beaten path' bands can have a chance to grow. Some of the best bands ever developed that way. It can be hard to have a venue like that and make money though.


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## allthumbs56

I guess I'm more of a whore than I thought. 

What really gets me off is entertaining people. Been that way since I was born. If my choice is to pull off the perfect Kid Charlamagne to crickets, or throw on a wig and do a campy Brickhouse to a full dance floor of happy people ........ well I'll do that dang Brickhouse one last time.


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## StevieMac

Thanks for sharing this letter. It certainly provides a worthwhile perspective, from one point of view at least, on the matter of performing at bars. Although I found the overall tone rather crass, it does make sense and is about what I'd expect from a bar owner. I most certainly do not agree with all of it however and, like mhammer, found the singular focus on alcohol sales to be offputting. I reckon this type of bar owner might argue "I only want people to BUY drinks, not necessarily to get drunk". Of course we all understand that one simply leads to the other and usually perpetuates itself for the rest of the night.

In any event, some good points were made and I enjoyed reading the letter, even if I didn't think much of the author afterwards. If I had to guess at the "trade secret" alluded to by this particular author, I'd say it was to present some sort of record (e.g. previous bar receipts, letters from other bar owners) clearly demonstrating your band's contribution to the bottom line.


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## mhammer

I think Kat and allthumbs56 both make cogent points. Absolutely NOTHING wrong with wanting to make people happy, and unify the dance floor by playing something everybody knows and likes, in a competent manner. And if they spend money on food and drink, so much the better. But, as Kat notes, not ALL places have to be like that all the time.

The irritation of the original letter writer is that they have a very specific business model and targeted clientele (again, itself not any particular sort of crime), and seem very reticent to acknowledge, or adapt to, any other sort of clientele or business model. It's as if there IS no live music scene outside of getting patrons pissed and dancing, which I think we can all agree is a rather narrow vision of what's out there, even if it does constitute a_ part _of the spectrum.

I think StevieMac's suggestion of having a demonstrable track record of how one's band impacts on the bottom line is an *excellent* idea. Receipts always make a more compelling case than bragging or hype.


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## Milkman

There's just no sense in playing bars if you expect anything other than being there to sell booze.

and, there's nothing wrong with that. You're no more a whore than a tradesman or anyone else providing service for a fee.

But, on the other hand, there's more to music for me than keeping a dance floor full and the waitresses busy. Frankly I never understood the enjoyment of dancing, and most of the music I listen to is really not suitable for dancing.


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## RobQ

Some of it I agree with. But he really doesn't understand his business very well.

Fixating on whether a band causes a drink sale RIGHT NOW is a very short sighted way to run his business. Part of the role of a consistent entertainment policy is to make your place a destination which people will seek out. That's how you build up buzz and establish a growing circle of regulars. Regulars are everything.

If your bar is the only place in town then his approach makes sense. But if you see yourself as being in competition with dozens or hundreds of other bars, you need to make your place stand out. This approach won't do that.

From his business model, I bet this guys is one of the 80% of bar owners who goes broke.


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## Guest

torndownunit said:


> .. there needs to be venues where 'off the beaten path' bands can have
> a chance to grow. Some of the best bands ever developed that way. ..


that's why more of ya's gotta come check out the *Riff Wrath Jams* sometime.


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## djmarcelca

Milkman said:


> I also MUCH prefer paying a cover to support a band I enjoy to sitting there listening to stuff that mostly appeals to drunk dancers and their boyfriends.


The only time as a Musician or DJ I got a piece of the door Monies is when I was playing a place that was the "Sell Tickets in Advance" type of place.
It's very common practice to tell the patrons at the door "It's to pay the band". It generally isn't.

I do believe that most of us who have been performing in bars have seen almost every type of scam to "pay" a musician or entertainer.

10% the X read at the end of the night.
Pay to play, Sell tickets to earn money
Give away tickets, get $2.00 for every stub that comes back
"Sunday Showcase" for free, with "Booking Agents" in the audience.

Ahhh my very early twenties. So full of stars in my eyes, so taken advantage of

Then I discovered the joys of the written, signed contract.

If I'm DJ'ing a wedding/christmas party or playing a Gig.

Signed Service Agreements.

I want to see the X-read from the ALL the Tills, and Wait Staff, Shooter Girls, and Beer tubs. (Part of the service agreement) I get a lot of resistance on that one. But I usually can get the information. I don't trust it for a minute cause bar owners lie worse than politicans
Any bar with a 300 person capacity should be selling minimum 5000.00-10000.00 on a Friday or Saturday night

If the place is boring, no-one is gonna stay.
It's the Band or DJ's job to Host the Party.
Play music that gets the hoochies on the Floor
Push the booze

Ever watch "Bar Rescue"? 

What's Jon Tafford always pushing?
High priced, high profit mixed liquor sales.... Not pop and draft
Good entertainment be it DJ, or Band
Fast wait staff
Less than 10 min food order times.

_But It's always to sell booze._


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## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> Frankly I never understood the enjoyment of dancing, and most of the music I listen to is really not suitable for dancing.


Me either - but I sure do love to watch the fine looking ladies slink it out.


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## Milkman

LOL, whether you get "a piece of the door" or the cover is simply there to offset the cost of a few less beers being sold, it's the same thing.

Having a cover charge makes it a bit more about the music and a bit less about the booze. It firmly indicates that people are there to support live music. If they drink a few drinks, that's fine.

For me, that's a good thing.

and as far as signed contracts go, I suppose it depends on the market, but contracts more or less went the way of the dodo after the 80's in most clubs around these here parts, as did a good portion of the band's revenue.


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## zontar

DJing would be easier for me to play stuff that pleases the crowd if I don't like it--I put on headphones and cue up the next song, etc.

i did do that with the odd party back in the day and got paid for some of them, and usually had fun.

But I'd prefer to be up there playing a guitar, but I don't care about dancing & drinking--I care about the music--maybe that's part of why I got disillusioned with that kind of thing at one point. 

But maybe I'm not the kind of person to be playing the bars.
That's not good or bad--just the way it is...


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## Fader

I saw George Thorogood play in a drinking establishment in New Hampshire last year. It was like a well oiled machine. The ******** drink and holler while he hollers songs about drinking.


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## GUInessTARS

Late to this thread but I wanted to add. Before Christmas I played a booked (private) restaurant gig with a local band. While the band had their break a "DJ" played songs off of his Ipod. The drummer, bass player and I picked up on one of his grooves and started jamming. The dance floor filled up and we drove that vamp into the ground. No vocals, no song. Just a groove. Is that the secret?


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## Roryfan

Milkman said:


> I decided a few years ago that I would no longer play music to sell booze. I don't like a lot of the material I would have to play to satisfy that market and life is too short for me to play music I dislike just to make a buck.


Chicken wing rock. Not that anyone's ever paid me to do so, but I have no desire to play (or hear) Proud Mary or Brown Eyed Girl ever again.


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## Milkman

Roryfan said:


> Chicken wing rock. Not that anyone's ever paid me to do so, but I have no desire to play (or hear) Proud Mary or Brown Eyed Girl ever again.


Nor do I. I figure we take a lot for granted. We assume we'll be around forever, or at least fail to consider that every time we walk on stage it could very well be our last.

With that rather sobering thought, I don't want my last set to be laced with songs who's purpose is to sell booze and encourage drunk folks to dance. I'd rather have a thoughtful audience, who remains quiet until the song is over and then shows their appreciation.

Smile, foot tapping, head nodding....great.

Line dancing?


I.....am....out of here.


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## did291

I play in a band for 4 years in the 80's. Top 40 song and classic rock. after 4 years i decided to stop, not sustainable, not fun( did not play anything really challenging), good money for the bar, but me , 19 to 23 year old, juste cover the cost of the PA, Guitar,amp, effect, transport, and school started to suffer.I understand the bar owner, its there job, they live with that. But i had to make a choise


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## robare99

Here's what you do, Mr Bar Owner. 


Don't depend on the band being the draw. Instead, concentrate on your venue. Get in a local sound company to provide house sound. They will bring a rig that's suitable for the establishment. Every week you know that the sound will be good. 


Without this you will get everything from a pair of speakers on stands to a wall of PA, too little or too much. By paying for house sound you will get the same consistent sound quality week after week. 


Now bands don't have to bring their PA which should bring their price down a little bit, but its to their advantage, especially if there's an appropriate rig for the room and someone who knows how to run it. 


Hire good bands, do a little legwork and actually listen to a few YouTube clips or visit their website. Get a bit of an idea of who they are before booking them. If they can't provide a clip, to me that's a red flag in this day and age. 


A draw is good, but have the venue being the draw is even better. If people haven't heard of the band but they know "Jimmy's Pub" ALWAYS has good bands they can show up knowing they are going to have a good time because again, "Jimmy's Pub ALWAYS has good bands"


Build that crowd, have drink specials. If you can get people drinking mixed drinks instead of beer, that's where the money is. Beer always sells itself though. 


Of course the bands job is to sell beer, it's their job to be good enough that people want to come and see them, even if they don't know them. Once they've played there, when people see they are coming back, they will look forward to returning to Jimmy's Pub, because it was a great time. 


Build the venue, provide a fun consistent product. Make sure that Jimmy's Pub is the place to be... 


Again...


Because they always have great bands, great drink specials and its always a good time.


Work together, and provide a solid foundation.


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## Krelf

Roryfan said:


> Chicken wing rock. Not that anyone's ever paid me to do so, but I have no desire to play (or hear) Proud Mary or Brown Eyed Girl ever again.



Me neither, but the woman you walk in with generally does!


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## allthumbs56

Just got back from a week in Cuba. Saw at least 8 live acts. Every single one of them did "Gauntanamera". I'm guessing it's their nations "Mustang Sally". They all smiled and pretended to sing it with heartfelt meaning and expression. All the tourists swayed and sang along "One tunna merra guaheela"!...... and tipped very, very well.

I'm sure that backstage they swore they'd never sing that damn song again


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## bluesmostly

_I get what this guy is saying and it is, like Milkman says, one of the main reasons we don't play bars anymore. 

Still, I too tend to think like a business person. So what is this 'trade secret' BS? this kind of info cannot possibly be proprietary. Clearly it has to be within the context of the same kind of common sense business practices that he is already so keen to share with the working bands by writing this open letter. 

He is obviously complaining about all the bands that don't know what they should be doing, offering advise and examples of 'appropriate' and 'successful' behavior, yet categorizes something as mundane as approaching the bar owner as a 'trade secret'. 

Is it because the 'good' bands don't want competition for jobs by letting out their secret on how to score a gig? That is definitely not the most important factor for success for the bar bands. And if that is the case, it would not be in the interest of the bar owners to withhold this type of tip, they would want as many 'good' bands as possible to hire to help 'sell ounces'. Every business owner understands that more competition from more 'good' bands looking for work is always win-win for the them. 
_


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## zontar

allthumbs56 said:


> Just got back from a week in Cuba. Saw at least 8 live acts. Every single one of them did "Gauntanamera". I'm guessing it's their nations "Mustang Sally". They all smiled and pretended to sing it with heartfelt meaning and expression. All the tourists swayed and sang along "One tunna merra guaheela"!...... and tipped very, very well.
> 
> I'm sure that backstage they swore they'd never sing that damn song again


Just had to post this in response...
[video=youtube;cWZfxDwH4t4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWZfxDwH4t4[/video]


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## nonreverb

This article is 110% correct...Sad to say but the common denominator for bars is sales. Bands that want to make them the source of their income have to comply with the basic rules outlined in this article. I found out very quickly that this is certainly not the exception but fact.
There are rare exceptions such as The Mercury lounge here in Ottawa but its capacity is only a small fraction of the other venues around town and they're very particular about who or what plays their establishment.


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## Guitar101

bluesmostly said:


> _I get what this guy is saying and it is, like Milkman says, one of the main reasons we don't play bars anymore.
> 
> Still, I too tend to think like a business person. So what is this 'trade secret' BS? this kind of info cannot possibly be proprietary. Clearly it has to be within the context of the same kind of common sense business practices that he is already so keen to share with the working bands by writing this open letter.
> 
> He is obviously complaining about all the bands that don't know what they should be doing, offering advise and examples of 'appropriate' and 'successful' behavior, yet categorizes something as mundane as approaching the bar owner as a 'trade secret'.
> 
> Is it because the 'good' bands don't want competition for jobs by letting out their secret on how to score a gig? That is definitely not the most important factor for success for the bar bands. And if that is the case, it would not be in the interest of the bar owners to withhold this type of tip, they would want as many 'good' bands as possible to hire to help 'sell ounces'. Every business owner understands that more competition from more 'good' bands looking for work is always win-win for the them.
> _


_*So what is this 'trade secret' BS?* - _How about the bands that have figured out a way to get the girls into their establishments. If the girls come, the guys will follow like pigs to the trough and spend their hard earned dollars looking for a little' lovin.


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## woodnoize

pretty sure the "trade secret" is everything thats mentioned in the letter. and then read a bit between the lines. make an awesome pitch, do everything in the letter and yer in!


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## bluesmostly

woodnoize said:


> pretty sure the "trade secret" is everything thats mentioned in the letter. and then read a bit between the lines. make an awesome pitch, do everything in the letter and yer in!


Of course, that makes perfect sense, but he gives all that advice and then throws in 'trade secret' at the end suggesting it is the way to land gigs with bar owners that he doesn't want to share. 

Guitar101, I think the owner is pointing out that, if you are 'reading between the lines' that the suggestions for success are all about getting the girls dancing and drinking. The simple formula for success for a bar band can be summed up with two words - _*DANCING GIRLS*_.


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## FrankyNoTone

Just got back from a pub and had to admire the band: pretty good playing from a microscopic stage space with bad sound and vintage cougars dancing right up front. These were real road worn cougars and not relic'ed.


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