# Do I really have to know...



## Guest (Nov 13, 2011)

I have been looking at some theory "stuff" and I am wondering if I am supposed to know all the scales for the guitar from memory. To know this info without the use of a guitar:

C## D## E## F## G## A## B## C


C D E F G A B C

C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#

Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb Cb Db

D E F# G A B C# D

D# E# F## G# A# B# C## D#

Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb

E F# G# A B C# D# E

F G A Bb C D E F

F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#

Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb

G A B C D E F# G

G# A# B# C# D# E# F## G#

Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab

A B C# D E F# G# A

A# B# C## D# E# F## G## A#

Bb C D Eb F G A Bb

B C# D# E F# G# A# B

C D E F G A B C

I am not sure I can commit all of this to memory...


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

Let me begin by saying I know them all.... but the less common ones i need to work out in my head. It is good to know the common natural keys like A,B,C,D,E,F,G you can go a long way with just these. C & G are the largest in rock stuff.... followed by D likely .. So yes EVENTUALLY you should know them... but not all at once.

You are better to learn a formula that helps you work it out in your head.


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## Wiser (Jan 6, 2010)

I don't know any of them, except the C major scale, lol. I use the major scale pattern to figure them out as Jeremy suggested.
Whole, whole, half, whole, whole whole, half (steps) which plays in my head like a drum beat. Whole being the snare and half the high hat.
Then all i have to do is remember B# and E# aren't used which make the D flat major scale Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab, Bb, C, Db.
That's only the major scale though.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

I don't think in terms of notes, I like to think in terms of patterns and intervals (root, 2nd, flat 3rd, etc), it is simpler that way because the key can change but the intervals are always the same (whole tone, half tone,...). 

But I suppose it depends on what you want to do with this info. For composing soloing and improvising, if I am in C major or G# major, the fingering pattern is the same, I just move to a different position on the neck. It is not hard the visualize that C# major scale is just 1/2 step (interval) or 1 fret up from C major, fingers don't move, hand moves up one fret. 

I find it much more useful to be able to play in any key, all over the neck. Also, you are only talking about the major scale. I like to be able to play C major, C minor, C Dorian, Phrygian, etc, all over the neck rather than have to think about what notes I am playing.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

45 years ago I taught classical theory and yes there were occasions where a double sharp might be used as a passing tone and yes the students were required to learn it all, but be realistic in todays music you are probably never going to see a double sharp. Stick to the basics as jeremy said it's good to know the common natural keys, also "wiser" gave good advise get that whole, whole, half routine down pat then as david said learn a pattern for your major scales likewise for your minor scales and your pentatonic scales when you are at ease with these then branch out into the more complex theory if you are so inclined.


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

It is simple to memorize, 

first you memorize the order that the keys go in. With each passing key you add an additional accidental (sharp or flat). Remembering that C is excluded because it has no sharps or flats. 
______________________________
The sharps -
If you go through the order G has one sharp, D has two, A has three on and on. The order goes like this:

G (one sharp)
D (2 sharps)
A (3 sharps)
E etc
B
F#
C#

So create a sentence to memorize this I used:
*Good Dogs Are Especially Bad For Charlie*
_________________________
Do the same for the flats -
So:

F (one flat)
Bb (2 flats)
Eb (3 flats)
Ab etc
Db
Gb
Cb

Or

*Flat Beatles Eat Apples During Good Classes*
(hint - I used the word "Flat" at the beginning to help me remember which sentence was for what)


-----------------------------------------
Then you need to know the the order the accidentals (sharps and flats) occur

So for sharps:
F, C, G, D, A, E, B - or Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Bottle

The order of Flats (same but Reversed)
B, E, A, D, G, C, F, - or Bottle Ends And Down Goes Charles Father

---------------------------------------

There you go - next time someone asks you how many sharps are in the key of E you go:

Good Dogs Are Especially.

so you know there are 4... 

what are they?
Father Charles Goes Down

So F, C, G & D are sharp in the key of E

Get it?

Make up your own sentences to make it more memorable to you. Soon you wont the silly sentences and you are off.

Good Luck!


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## ThePass (Aug 10, 2007)

Jeremy ~ 


Thanks for posting that!!! I'm writing this down.....


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

I look at it from the point of view of intervals and their relationships with each other. The relationship the tonic has to the music is outside of the relationship of the intervals so while I may be looking for the sound I get from playing the notes in a particular key it doesn't change the relationships between the notes. I find as much as the intervals of the particular scale are useful so to are the intervals of the chords of the progression. 

A simple blues progression I-IV-V is a good example of what I mean. A lot of the time you'll hear a guitarist using a pentatonic scale over the progression. The scale has the minor third in it though the I chord is a major - often a dominant 7. The delta blues and the Chicago blues that was inspired by it were built on singers singing this minor third. When you're soloing there's nothing that says you can't include the major third at an appropriate time, in fact switching into the major scale will work. If you look at the notes being played in the progression there are a lot of notes not in the pentatonic scale. For instance when the progression is on the IV there is a lovely 6th (the 3rd of the IV) that can be very effective to my ears. The 3rd of the V gives us a major 7 to add to our root pentatonic! Boring old blue? I don't think so. 

Scales can be fun. Try a Persian Gypsy Minor sometime. One of my favorites.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

hummingway said:


> I look at it from the point of view of intervals and their relationships with each other. The relationship the tonic has to the music is outside of the relationship of the intervals so while I may be looking for the sound I get from playing the notes in a particular key it doesn't change the relationships between the notes. I find as much as the intervals of the particular scale are useful so to are the intervals of the chords of the progression.
> 
> A simple blues progression I-IV-V is a good example of what I mean. A lot of the time you'll hear a guitarist using a pentatonic scale over the progression. The scale has the minor third in it though the I chord is a major - often a dominant 7. The delta blues and the Chicago blues that was inspired by it were built on singers singing this minor third. When you're soloing there's nothing that says you can't include the major third at an appropriate time, in fact switching into the major scale will work. If you look at the notes being played in the progression there are a lot of notes not in the pentatonic scale. For instance when the progression is on the IV there is a lovely 6th (the 3rd of the IV) that can be very effective to my ears. The 3rd of the V gives us a major 7 to add to our root pentatonic! Boring old blue? I don't think so.
> 
> Scales can be fun. Try a Persian Gypsy Minor sometime. One of my favorites.


I'd love to, qu'est que c'est le Persian Gypsy Minor?


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

jeremy_green said:


> Then you need to know the the order the accidentals (sharps and flats) occur
> 
> So for sharps:
> F, C, G, D, A, E, B - or Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Bottle
> ...


Bottle ends?


I used Brother Eric and Dan go chicken fighting
Fighting Chickens goes Dan and Eric's brother.

Nonsensical, but it worked.
For me.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

bluesmostly said:


> I'd love to, qu'est que c'est le Persian Gypsy Minor?


Flat 2nd, sharp 3rd, major 7th. Roots on a major but it sounds minor anyway.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

hummingway said:


> Flat 2nd, sharp 3rd, major 7th. Roots on a major but it sounds minor anyway.


Unless I am missing something only the flat 2nd is not already part of the major scale. I do like the exotic minor sound of the flat 2nd.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

bluesmostly said:


> Unless I am missing something only the flat 2nd is not already part of the major scale. I do like the exotic minor sound of the flat 2nd.


The sharp third in a minor scale sounds exotic as well. I forgot to mention the flat 6 as well.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

hummingway said:


> Flat 2nd, sharp 3rd, major 7th. Roots on a major but it sounds minor anyway.


Unless I totally misread and misunderstood what was written here I believe we have a Phrygian mode scale. The Phrygian mode has root, flat2, flat3, 4(sharp3), 5, flat6, flat7 and root, adding the major7 really makes little difference, in many cases it will simply enhance what you are playing as long as you don't play all nine is sequence, like mix and match, scales can be fun.
For some reason I picked "A" major to work with, the Phrygian mode is "Db" the secondary relative minor (3rd. note) of "A" the notes are Db,D,E,Gb.Ab,A B Db and the C would be the Major 7. The sixth note of this scale is the "A" which of course is root of the scale I started with. If I am wrong please don't shoot me I'm old and will probably expire in about twenty years. I think we hijacked Player 99 thread sorry about that.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

fredyfreeloader said:


> Unless I totally misread and misunderstood what was written here I believe we have a Phrygian mode scale. The Phrygian mode has root, flat2, flat3, 4(sharp3), 5, flat6, flat7 and root, adding the major7 really makes little difference, in many cases it will simply enhance what you are playing as long as you don't play all nine is sequence, like mix and match, scales can be fun.
> For some reason I picked "A" major to work with, the Phrygian mode is "Db" the secondary relative minor (3rd. note) of "A" the notes are Db,D,E,Gb.Ab,A B Db and the C would be the Major 7. The sixth note of this scale is the "A" which of course is root of the scale I started with. If I am wrong please don't shoot me I'm old and will probably expire in about twenty years. I think we hijacked Player 99 thread sorry about that.


I've done a poor job explaining it. I call it a sharp third only because it's called a minor scale and there isn't a minor 3rd. It's actually a natural third. Just 1, flat2, 3, 4, 5, flat6, major7. So, in A : A, Bb, Db, D, E, F, Ab.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

Well Hummingway that is a very cool sounding scale, now that I am going in the right direction. I should have looked or read more thoroughly and I might have realized that the sound was minor and not a minor scale and the way it is done definitely sounds minor.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

There's interesting things that come out of it. With some slight variations it resolves nicely on the 4th so you can easily shift into other modes.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

hummingway said:


> I've done a poor job explaining it. I call it a sharp third only because it's called a minor scale and there isn't a minor 3rd. It's actually a natural third. Just 1, flat2, 3, 4, 5, flat6, major7. So, in A : A, Bb, Db, D, E, F, Ab.


Now I get it! I too thought you were just talking about a Phrygian scale. That sounds very cool, thanks for sharing. Now what context/chords/progression, would you play over with that scale?


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

bluesmostly said:


> Now I get it! I too thought you were just talking about a Phrygian scale. That sounds very cool, thanks for sharing. Now what context/chords/progression, would you play over with that scale?


Rhythmically I like either a Roma Flamenco or a Middle Eastern feel. I'm going to switch to the key of E. There's a lot of interesting chords and progression suggested by it, the only ones that are as easy to say as play are the E,F and Am. For a Flamenco feel you can open with an E to F for a classic bolero! Actually I like E to Esus#5.

Here's something, hopefully my naming will work for you : E - Esus#5 - E - Esus#5 - Am - Csus#5b9 - Am - Cm6no5 - B no5+4+9

None of the sus. contain the dominant 7. There a lot easier to play then say!


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