# State of pop music



## dtsaudio (Apr 15, 2009)

Rather humorous, and has some good points.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2016)




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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

The argument about why TV shows have gotten better but pop music has declined was interesting. There are niches of music or artists that have progressed music in general (imo) but technology again has made this a challenge - the ability to download music for free has had an impact on artists that don't appeal to the masses. I'm not sure if this applies to TV shows as well but my perception is that users are more prepared to pay for cable tv or other paid providers.

I don't really think pop music has gotten worst - Take a look at what the top hits were in the 70's - it was no better.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

I shared that video on my FB Page


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## dtsaudio (Apr 15, 2009)




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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I see you've dug up two of my favorite tunes.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

just like stupid pet videos that get millions of views, I think social media has had a huge effect on popular music.
Its the artist that's best at playing the social media game that gets all the attention. Their music is a secondary consideration.
G.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Does the article mention why people who perform outside the scope of pop music should be worried about the current state of pop music? Honest question.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2016)

Disco died.
So there's hope.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I don't get it. 

So, there was a lot of pop garbage back in the day (what zappa was going on about), but some slipped through the cracks? There's a lot of pop garbage right now, but we still have bands like Arcade Fire, M.I.A? Remember rage against the machine?

We're dumbing down music to ease media perpetuated fear? There was nothing to fear back in the day? Like war and stuff?

Everything is the same as it was then, there's just more people now. 

I don't buy it.

http://www.the60sofficialsite.com/Silly_Songs_of_the_50s_and_60s.html
http://commonplacebook.com/art/music/playlists/cheesy-hits-of-the-seventies/
http://www.threesorryboys.com/dumb_80s_lyrics.html


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

adcandour said:


> I don't get it.
> 
> So, there was a lot of pop garbage back in the day (what zappa was going on about), but some slipped through the cracks? There's a lot of pop garbage right now, but we still have bands like Arcade Fire, M.I.A? Remember rage against the machine?
> 
> ...


More people but also more media. The risk of altercations or war was just as high when we were growing up(Cuban missile crisis, Vietnam, Cold War, etc).


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Alex said:


> More people but also more media. The risk of altercations or war was just as high when we were growing up(Cuban missile crisis, Vietnam, Cold War, etc).


Exactly. Everything's pretty much the same there's just more of everything


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

adcandour said:


> Exactly. Everything's pretty much the same there's just more of everything


The only point I was trying to add is that I think the proportion of media has outweighed the other increase in numbers. It's available (or pushed down on us) anywhere anytime.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Alex said:


> The only point I was trying to add is that I think the proportion of media has outweighed the other increase in numbers. It's available (or pushed down on us) anywhere anytime.


I'm not certain I agree with that...

I believe that access to media and popular music has increased, but it seems to be the same shity musicians. 

You got your new Madonna's your new Nirvana's your new Garth Brooks and your new fill in the blank.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

"Disco Duck" was number 1 at some point in 1976. Even as a 10 year old, I remember thinking wtf? : - )


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2016)

or even 'My Ding-a-ling'.


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## Slooky (Feb 3, 2015)

Back in the day they had am and fm, radio, am was for the pop songs and fm was for people wanting to listen something else. Fm used to play full albums and unknowns. Now you have fm as am, all about the charts. Now their is cRap and Shithop gracing our radio. Radio has gone to shiite!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Rap and hip hop are not what made radio get crappy. Corporate radio made radio crappy.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Every decade has it's good and bad. It seems to be getting progressively worse due to........progress. The new "Gimmick" at the beginning of the 80's was a social media called a television video. Now it's the Interwebs.

As the proverb says: "The more things change, the more they stay the same."

Here's a song that someone like myself would consider a hit if on the radio. Due to the realistic nature of the lyrics though, and the genre of music it's from, it would never happen.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

The dude makes some valid points but I feel he could be speaking of any era of popular music over the last 50 years. Whoever produced it too gave the guy that weird international/Brit/generic accent and personality. Like they are so worldly that they must be experts.

Show me a genre that had innovators and for sure there were manufactured bands and artists to cash in. The Monkees anyone?

Personally, I feel there is way more and way better music available today then at any time & this despite what commercial radio has done and despite what Mr. Expert has to say in the video. We also have access to way more music. I get there is a lot of pap but you don't need to pay attention to it unless you'd rather moan and complain about the state of modern pop music.
Before the advent of FM radio we used to phone into the local AM stations and try and get them to play Led Zeppelin and there was no way any of them would do it. Now we have stations that are dedicated solely to Zeppelin. Maybe this isn't really a good thing but the point is it's there if you want it.

I'm constantly on the lookout for new and interesting bands and am rarely disappointed. Check out the college radio stations. Even CBC has decent music on their website - you just have to want to search for it.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

laristotle said:


> or even 'My Ding-a-ling'.


I had a good laugh at that, I remember how the politicians of the day were constantly trying to censor anything and everything on the air that offended their personal puritan thoughts. Chuck Berry with this song basically gave them the one finger peace sign in song. The largest majority of todays "pop artists??" aren't producing something humorous to mock the current politicians, they're just putting out the crap that their told to produce. Chuck Berry was not the only one back then who took exception to the political interference in the world of music and entertainment, singers, song writers, producers and even record company execs were quite vocal in their opposition to the almighty stance of some politicians. Today shit rules pop music and no one cares, what happened to the voice of the public who is standing up and saying enough of this shit is enough. The record execs wonder why sales are down. I guess they don't listen to todays pop music even though the earn a very nice living pushing this shit on the public. I think it's time to go play with our ding-la-lings.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

Dorian2 said:


> Every decade has it's good and bad. It seems to be getting progressively worse due to........progress. The new "Gimmick" at the beginning of the 80's was a social media called a television video. Now it's the Interwebs.
> 
> As the proverb says: "The more things change, the more they stay the same."
> 
> Here's a song that someone like myself would consider a hit if on the radio. Due to the realistic nature of the lyrics though, and the genre of music it's from, it would never happen.


 Although you and I see talent, thought and musicianship here. This just wouldn't survive in todays world of take this crap and love it shit, I just couldn't call what I hear from the young performers today music because I don't believe there is any real music there. IMHO


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I miss full albums. When artists could put out a bunch of different ideas, knowing some will be popular but some will have limited appeal. Many people hated that - "I had to jump all those crappy songs to hear the 2 big hits over and over again". I guess there was more of them than of me, because the whole business has embraced that model. "Why bother writing an interesting song pushing the boundaries if it ain't gonna ship units for us?"

The current Kesha / Dr Luke battle is pealing the scab off of that side of the business, IMO.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Budda said:


> Rap and hip hop are not what made radio get crappy. Corporate radio made radio crappy.


What Budda says


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

laristotle said:


> Disco died.
> So there's hope.


It's coming back. 


adcandour said:


> Exactly. Everything's pretty much the same there's just more of everything


Not quite, it's a lot easier to drop a missile in Times Square now than it was then.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> I miss full albums. When artists could put out a bunch of different ideas, knowing some will be popular but some will have limited appeal. Many people hated that - "I had to jump all those crappy songs to hear the 2 big hits over and over again". I guess there was more of them than of me, because the whole business has embraced that model. "Why bother writing an interesting song pushing the boundaries if it ain't gonna ship units for us?"
> 
> The current Kesha / Dr Luke battle is pealing the scab off of that side of the business, IMO.


People's attention spans in general seem shorter, which is exactly how streaming and iTunes really took off. People who love music still listen to and buy full albums, not just singles. I just bought an album today of a band I barely listen to, but are hugely influential in modern metal and really brought a style forward. The band is At The Gates, for those interested (and this record rips so far). 

@Electraglide I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed...


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Alex said:


> "Disco Duck" was number 1 at some point in 1976. Even as a 10 year old, I remember thinking wtf? : - )


My grand daughters generation seem to love that video. This one too.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Budda said:


> People's attention spans in general seem shorter, which is exactly how streaming and iTunes really took off. People who love music still listen to and buy full albums, not just singles. I just bought an album today of a band I barely listen to, but are hugely influential in modern metal and really brought a style forward. The band is At The Gates, for those interested (and this record rips so far).
> 
> @Electraglide I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed...


I grew up in the 50's. Korea was the biggy, it was before Nam took over the news spot but all you had to worry about was Russia trying to throw something over the pole and hitting what ever got in it's way then Russia and China thinking about throwing something at each other. Cuba wasn't that big a problem and Kruschev just kept on beating his shoe. Now a lot of countries can drop a missile right on top of your house and have it explode 30' below the house. And a minute or two later you can watch it on your phone unless you are listening to or watching pop music on your phone. What were you saying Budda? Oh yeah, is there now another new style of metal music. Seems to be a lot from ultra=death to symphonic to baby to who knows what. In certain places playing music like that can be a death sentence. Personally I figure Bob had it right




This song came up after Bob ob youtube and I sorta think it fits too.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Can this thread be about J-pop after? It'd be far more interesting haha. That's Japanese Pop by the way - not something I listen to, but it doesn't have all the Western stuff going on.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

laristotle said:


> Disco died.
> So there's hope.


What was behind all the hate for disco back in the day?
There were some great songs.
I'd take disco like Earth Wind and Fires "September" over boring 3 chord rock with dumb lyrics like Free "all Right Now" any day.

Heck, one of their songs even stood up to being "metalized" in a cover....


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Budda said:


> Can this thread be about J-pop after? It'd be far more interesting haha. That's Japanese Pop by the way - not something I listen to, but it doesn't have all the Western stuff going on.


You mean like the Beatles, The Beach Boys and Elvis with accents and really funky hair. Not to mention the Ventures....I mean the real Ventures.
Or you talking something like this?




or this


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Diablo said:


> What was behind all the hate for disco back in the day?
> There were some great songs.
> I'd take disco like Earth Wind and Fires "September" over boring 3 chord rock with dumb lyrics like Free "all Right Now" any day.
> 
> Heck, one of their songs even stood up to being "metalized" in a cover....


The clothes for one thing. Actually, back in the day, most of disco was either on FM radio or in the night clubs and in the night clubs, at least where I was you had to either like disco or you were out. Other than that you didn't really hear it. Most of the places I went, disco was out.....even for the strippers. You could sit in a bar after work, have a few beer, shoot a little 9 ball while watching a stripper or 3, all to rock and roll.
I suppose those born in the late 60's and after who grew up listening to it in the 80's might like it.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

No idea, I don't listen to it hahaha


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

"Would you exchange a walk on part in a war for a lead role in a cage?"

It seems to me that modern corporate pop is directed at one-off instant gratuitous profit from a narrow and musically low functioning audience. Most other music is directed at profit from a wider normal functioning audience. There are some very talented people working in both fields but the latter hasn't sold out to the same degree as the former. The former is quite profitable partly because the audience starts out younger and more naive, with a shorter attention span, greater disposable income, and in larger numbers. Some listeners mature, some don't. The latter has greater endurance and stamina and will be remembered for its musicality rather than its sales receipts.

I don't have much to go on other than my largely anecdotal personal experience, and my unscientific observations of music students, but the industry isn't going to rise or fall on my opinion either...which is to say IMHO, YMMV, FWIW.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Budda said:


> People's attention spans in general seem shorter, which is exactly how streaming and iTunes really took off. People who love music still listen to and buy full albums, not just singles. I just bought an album today of a band I barely listen to, but are hugely influential in modern metal and really brought a style forward. The band is At The Gates, for those interested (and this record rips so far).
> 
> @Electraglide I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed...


At The Gates is great. And your totally right about rap not messing radio up. There's some really good stuff out there.

@Diablo: I don't follow some factions in the heavier Metal community, but I DO like my Swedish Death Metal. Many do not like Stryper:


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Xelebes said:


> Disco never died. It won.
> 
> Disco
> → Hiphop (Maestro Fresh Wes - Let Your Backbone Slide)
> ...


Seems I've only heard of Carly Rae and madonna. I guess I'm lucky. Disco may have won but as in most music "contests" no one remembers the winners. Carly Rae was in some music contest on t.v.. You never hear about the person who won.


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## Xelebes (Mar 9, 2015)

Canadian Idol had a substantial following and the followers knew who won. Carly was the biggest winner, I guess, because whe propbably had the biggest business sense of the winners. I'm trying to think if Annie Villeneuve also won it. Maybe it was La Voix or Star Academie.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Xelebes said:


> Canadian Idol had a substantial following and the followers knew who won. Carly was the biggest winner, I guess, because whe propbably had the biggest business sense of the winners. I'm trying to think if Annie Villeneuve also won it. Maybe it was La Voix or Star Academie.


The wife watches show/series like that. Carly Rae was 2nd runner up...I looked...seems the 1st runner up was from just down the road from here. Didn't know that.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i copy clipped this (my own) post from another thread about this, on another forum:

one thing i notice people haven't addressed is his statement that all of pop is written by 4 people, and that songs are chosen by an algorithm. 
_if this is true_, then certainly this separates modern pop from times past when it was the artist who came up with their art.

to me, that's the part that is disturbing. i don't like modern pop, but as an old guy i'm not supposed to. there's nothing unusual there. 
but if it's true that all modern pop is written by the same 4 people, and songs are chosen for distribution by an algorithm, there is no way you can compare the vapidity of pop from times gone by to the pop of today. if you remove the artist from the art, they are not artists, and what they produce is not art. they are manufacturers who produce and distribute a product, and nothing more.

me personally, i think that beauty in the form of art, is important to the world. the entire reason art can define us is because it is supposed to come from a place inside of us which is not subject to the limitations we ourselves are. if art comes from your soul, it comes from a part of you that is bigger than the physical and deeper than shallow consciousness we use to navigate much of everyday life.
once you have predictive algorithms feeding you your art, it is no longer art, because it is no longer free to become whatever it will. when you remove art from the world, we are all less for it because our world is less beautiful, less holistic, less empathic. those who strive to support the capitalistic homogenization of beauty are truly doing the devil's work. 
******************************************************************************
i realize there are exceptions, like elvis, who only wrote 2 of the songs in his entire catalog. however, those songs weren't chosen for distribution by a computer program. elvis, and those like him, were more the exception than today. several songs charted more than once, by different artists, up until the mid 60's.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

cheezyridr said:


> i realize there are exceptions, like elvis, who only wrote 2 of the songs in his entire catalog. however, those songs weren't chosen for distribution by a computer program. elvis, and those like him, were more the exception than today. several songs charted more than once, by different artists, up until the mid 60's.


I agree with the sentiment, but the whole 'payola scandal' makes me think the pop industry was always manipulated. We are spoon-fed what they want us to hear, and way too many of us just lap it up. Not much critical listening going on now, but not so different from then maybe. 

I'd like to think we were more critical back them, but were we really? My circle of friends weren't into what the radio played, but I remember at parties taking off Abba and putting on The Residents wasn't what the majority wanted. Just us cool ones.....


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i couldn't possibly claim we were more critical then. someone mentioned disco duck. there are other equally vapid songs besides that one, from back in the day. the kung fu fighting song, for example. and no question you are right about the payola. that was a thing, and no one can deny. ive said before that elvis was the justin beiber of the 50's. however, there was high quality popular music on the radio at the same time as all the drivel. remember that hendrix was pop music. until his management bought up all his records to force him onto the charts, no one had any idea he even existed. the stones were pop during their heyday. the temptations were pop music during their time. just a few examples of popular music that had real quality as well as drivel.
i haven't heard an artist equal to any of those three chart in about 25 years. those artists may be out there, (and i might even be forgetting someone but i doubt it) but with a computer deciding what we all want to hear, we'll never know of them.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

Electraglide said:


> My grand daughters generation seem to love that video. This one too.


Lea's only lead role other than back to the future.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

And how could we forget this classic.....


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Dorian2 said:


> At The Gates is great. And your totally right about rap not messing radio up. There's some really good stuff out there.
> 
> @Diablo: I don't follow some factions in the heavier Metal community, but I DO like my Swedish Death Metal. Many do not like Stryper:


I don't doubt it. They're very different in every way, and separated by about 25 years of music.
But as a metal fan, I haven't subscribed to the childish rivalries based on some hierarchy that whomever is 'heavier' is better since I was a teenager. At some point it just devolves into the "winner" being whomever can drop their 6th string the lowest, have the most offensive lyrics and sing the most like Cookie Monster, all while selling the fewest albums. Sooooo cool.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> And how could we forget this classic.....


Nothing wrong with CW or Jerry either...




Back in the day there was 'popular' music. Buddy Holly, Johnny Cash and yeah, elvis were starting to be pushed but the standards....Sinatra, Page, Clooney etc. were still big. Then I guess my generation discovered drugs and alcohol and this was one of the results.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Shitty music from all generations.









Purists should have burned down record label offices when these songs came out. If you didn't at least try to firebomb a radio station for playing these songs back on the day, you have no right to complain today


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

@Diablo I think Popcorn is a significant song. I believe that was the first recording of a synthesizer, no?



Electraglide said:


> Nothing wrong with CW or Jerry either...


Can't think of anything redeeming (or anything other than Convoy) for CW, but I loves me some Jerry. Wicked character and smokin' guitar player. I stage teched for him for a couple of weeks decades ago at the Stampede. A real down-home guy.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> @Diablo I think Popcorn is a significant song. I believe that was the first recording of a synthesizer, no?
> 
> 
> 
> Can't think of anything redeeming (or anything other than Convoy) for CW, but I loves me some Jerry. Wicked character and smokin' guitar player. I stage teched for him for a couple of weeks decades ago at the Stampede. A real down-home guy.


CW wasn't as big as say Jerry or Hoytt Axton or Red Sovine or even David Allen Coe but his cassettes were in most trucks back then.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Everything I know about DAC I learned from these ********. Heard lots of Hoyt growing up though.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Pop music is all about maximizing corporate profits. It's all about promoting the Big Macs, KD and Coco Puffs of the pop music world that will do that.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Biker/truck driver/cowboy music. 




Nothing 'pop' about this.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Robert1950 said:


> Pop music is all about maximizing corporate profits. It's all about promoting the Big Macs, KD and Coco Puffs of the pop music world that will do that.


Not KD Robert....please say it ain't so. Next thing you'll be telling me is that Tang wasn't developed for the space race.


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## Xelebes (Mar 9, 2015)

High/Deaf said:


> @Diablo I think Popcorn is a significant song. I believe that was the first recording of a synthesizer, no?


Wendy Carlos' "Switched On Bach" recordings came before it.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Xelebes said:


> Wendy Carlos' "Switched On Bach" recordings came before it.


I think the Monkeys were doing things with synths in the late 60's too along with Dick Hynman, Leon Russel and Bread to name a few. But none of those sticks in your head like that damned popcorn song. I don't have to play the vid to hear that "Pop pop poppop poppoppop" over and over again. 




Some could be said to take things to extreme....


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## Xelebes (Mar 9, 2015)

Edit - oops, misread your post.


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## Xelebes (Mar 9, 2015)

Oh, and let's not forget Delia Derbyshire who used tone generators and tape machines. She was the one who taught George Martin all his fanciwork with the Beatles.

From 1963.


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## Bastille day (Mar 2, 2014)

Diablo said:


> What was behind all the hate for disco back in the day?
> There were some great songs.
> I'd take disco like Earth Wind and Fires "September" over boring 3 chord rock with dumb lyrics like Free "all Right Now" any day.
> Heck, one of their songs even stood up to being "metalized" in a cover....


I have to agree, *Disco Inferno *by The Trammps comes to mind.

If that song doesn't move your soul, your in coma.


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## Bastille day (Mar 2, 2014)

laristotle said:


> or even 'My Ding-a-ling'.


Speaking of the novelty genre, there was the 1974 hit "The Streak" by Ray Stevens.

Number 1 Billboard Hot 100 [3 weeks], number 3 hot country singles.

Not to shabby, still hear it once in while on A.M radio.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Bastille day said:


> I have to agree, *Disco Inferno *by The Trammps comes to mind.
> 
> If that song doesn't move your soul, your in coma.


If that's the best disco can offer and this is where it's at now then all I can say is, dog please let me be in a coma.


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2016)




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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Xelebes said:


> Oh, and let's not forget Delia Derbyshire who used tone generators and tape machines. She was the one who taught George Martin all his fanciwork with the Beatles.
> 
> From 1963.






From when Dr Who was good but that's another story.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

laristotle said:


>


My younger bro and I have a good laugh about this song 'cause it's true.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

The music business is a business, end of story. People get caught up in things that have to do with the music side of it and seem to forget that sometimes. The state of pop music is the same as it's always been: find out what sells, exploit it until it's tapped, and find the next thing. This has always been the case. Comparing great musicians who happened to be mainstream to people who have hired writers just shows how the times have changed. The industry learned that it can put its own people in charge of more of the process, thus get more of a cut. So they did exactly that. The state of pop music is just reflective of the industry trying to find new ways to make more money and seeing which ones stick.


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## Bastille day (Mar 2, 2014)

Electraglide said:


> If that's the best disco can offer and this is where it's at now then all I can say is, dog please let me be in a coma.


Tell us how many songs you had to reach number one in any one category.

Just what I thought.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)




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## Xelebes (Mar 9, 2015)

Eh, that's a bit misleading. The number of writers goes up quite quickly when you are talking about sampling and, well, let's face it, when there is improvisation being done by the individual musicians. The lyrics above for Run the World were written by one person. It would be like saying a piece has eight writers but the vocalist wrote the lyrics, the guitarist wrote the guitar bit, the drummer wrote the drum bit, bass wrote the drum bit, the piano player wrote the piano bit, the synth player wrote the synth bit, the harp player wrote the harp bit, the flute player wrote the flute bit and the violinist wrote the violin bit.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

_It was a joke.....


_
But behind ever joke is some reality. While not dead accurate, there is some truth in that. I doubt all 4 guys had equal writing roles in the initial Van Halen. We can't always go completely by the liner notes.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Bastille day said:


> Tell us how many songs you had to reach number one in any one category.
> 
> Just what I thought.


That's a little confusing but I'll say about the same as you.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Robert1950 said:


> Pop music is all about maximizing corporate profits. It's all about promoting the Big Macs, KD and Coco Puffs of the pop music world that will do that.


I don't think id limit that to just pop music. I don't hold Bruce Springsteen for example much higher than that either. Playing Superbowls, songs for Renee Zellweger movies etc aint exactly starving for your art.
Actually, id put Stefani Germanotta and Katy perry above 'the Boss', in terms of musical ability even if what they do seems more blatantly commercial. And they dont have to start every one of their fucking songs with "One! two! three! four!..."...geez, get a tighter band or something.

again, generational bias blinds us sometimes to the hacks within our own generation, and its more fun to pick on other generations.


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