# Jazzy Study Group?



## jimmythegeek

Would there be any interest in a bit of an informal study group? I don't have a ton of time right now (new baby) but I've been trying to dedicate 15-20 minutes a night to practice. I'm hoping to choose 1 tune a month and share ideas on chord voicings, comping rhythms, solo ideas etc. Each month a different member would pick the tune. I'm not a virtuoso by any means but I ha e a ton of enthusiasm/patience lol. Let me know what you think!


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## greco

I am enthusiastic but at the very basic level of learning some jazz chords and simple progressions.

@teleboli , @Trevor Giancola, @Hammertone, @Chito, @Paul M and likely many others might be able to help us


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## jimmythegeek

I can spell chords pretty well and am solid on progressions but can't solo to save my life.


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## greco

Which jazz artists do you like to listen to? (guitarists and otherwise)


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## bgreenhouse

I'd be interested. Not huge into jazz, bit always looking to learn.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk


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## jimmythegeek

greco said:


> Which jazz artists do you like to listen to? (guitarists and otherwise)


My guitar guys tend to be Bill Frisell, Julian Lage, Jim Hall, Nels Cline and Grant Green. Otherwise Charles Mingus, Miles Davis, the Max Roach/Clifford Brown group, Sonny Rollins, Coltrane. More modern stuff that catches my ear tends to be Snarky Puppy, Worst Pop Band Ever, Mammal Hands, Wolfgang Muthspiel etc. I dig pretty well anything lol. How about you @greco and @bgreenhouse?


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## bgreenhouse

I love Bill Frisell. Never thought of him as jazz, but...of course. Don't know what I thought he was. Coltrane i enjoy. Most of what I like of jazz I heard on the show Bosch 

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## fretzel

Following with interest.


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## greco

Warning...I'm all over the map!

General: Miles Davis, Dave Brubeck, Oscar Peterson, Charles Mingus, Thelonious Monk, Herbie Hancock, Weather Report, Jaco Pastorius, Bill Evans, Marcus Miller, Stanley Turrentine ...this list goes on forever

Guitar: (Canadian) Ted Quinlan, Trevor Giancola, Margaret Stowe, Joe Huron, Dave Thompson, Lorne Lofsky, Sam Kirmayer, Ed Bickert, Reg Schwager

Mike Stern, Wes Montgomery, Pat Metheny, Mimi Fox, Emily Remler, Grant Green, Joe Pass, Kenny Burrell, Larry Carlton, John Scofield, George Benson, Tom Ibarra


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## nbs2005

I'm in. I may have to dumb it down a bit with simpler inversions and there's probably a lot I can't play but I love thinking about music in this way.


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## teleboli

Well, life is strange.

Just last week I was thinking it would be cool to have an 'Official Jazz Thread' , but just didn't for whatever reason.

I will say there are a handful at least of members here who are college program grads, teachers, gigging, full time jazz guys. And another handful maybe who are totally steeped in the jazz world . Live the genre and know the history etc.

I could talk to any musician for hours about useless information regarding music of the 50's/60'/'70's because that's what I grew up with and played/gigged. I can play rock, country, blues etc. and get by. I got the jazz calling organically nearly 15 years ago now after hearing Kenny Burrell on the radio. I said to myself ' I need to do that '. Just the way it happened when I heard The Beatles Roll Over Beethoven in grade 6.

I think this thread is a great idea but I am NOT a jazz musician. I like to say I make 'jazz like sounds'. If you took your wife for dinner and there was a guy in the corner playing solo jazz guitar that could be me and you may enjoy it. That's all!

Having said that this is a real rabbit hole but I'll say a couple things I do know I think.

- decide what type of jazz you wanna play. Solo chord melody or with a trio etc. It can help simplify your thinking as you learn. They can be quite different and have their own task masters. Some guys who are masterful playing with others have difficulty with chord melody. They're kind of their own thing.

- learn standards, learn standards, learn standards

- jazz is a language. Learn to speak the language. ( if I dropped you off on a street corner in Paris and you started talking English let's say, not many would know what you're saying, and you'd sound out of place. Same thing.) How? Listen to a lot of jazz you like to climatize the ears and then start transcribing it. It's hard work. There's no shortcuts.

- There's another forum called The Jazz Forum. Just Google it. A very similar format to GC and TONS of chat/info/playing vids etc.

There. That's it for now. Once again, I'm NOT 'that jazz guy'. I just love the music and have worked like hell at it . I maintain my humility. If what I say is helpful, great. If not, it's just worth 2 cents.

I was gonna say nothing but hey, life is short. Ask me how I know. I'll shut up now and hopefully some of the folks much more qualified than I will say.... something.

Jeez, Chatty Cathy


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## greco

nbs2005 said:


> dumb it down a bit with simpler inversions


What's an inversion?


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## Hammertone

It's like a perversion but different.


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## greco

teleboli said:


> - There's another forum called The Jazz Forum. Just Google it. A very similar format to GC and TONS of chat/info/playing vids etc.


An excellent suggestion!
The Jazz Guitar Forum


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## teleboli

Hammertone said:


> It's like a perversion but different.


There's also excursion, conversion, dispersion and immersion, so ya, it's a rabbit hole alright.


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## Grab n Go

Great idea!

I studied jazz through private lessons for a few years. I haven't kept up with my jazz practice regimen (i.e. I've been lazy and I now suck), but it definitely changed how I approach music in general.

Having a good teacher for jazz is the way to go, in my opinion. But I understand that may be difficult right now. There's a lot of good content available online too, but as a beginner, it's hard to know where to start. 

I've been really impressed with Jens Larsen's approach. I think he has some of the clearest explanations and I like his emphasis on making music with what he teaches. I think you can do a free trial on his website. He starts with the basics there.

(I am also not the jazz guy. I sometimes make jazz-like noises as well.)


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## Trevor Giancola

Here are some jazz, modern jazz, bebop etc guitarists I like:

Eddie Lang
Charlie christian
Django reinhardt
George van eps
Jimmy raney
Tal farlow
Grant green
Mundell lowe
Kenny burrell
Wes montgomery
Jim hall
George benson
Ted Greene
Pete bernstein

modern:
Bill frisell
Pat metheny
John Scofield
Kurt rosenwinkel
Ben monder
Adam rogers
Lage lund
Julian Lage

others I don’t listen to much but are excellent:

jonathan kreisberg
Mike moreno
John abercrombie
Miles Okazaki

local favorited:
Rob piltch
Reg Schwagger
Lucian gray
Ben bishop
Lee wallace
Nathan hiltz
Jesse barksdale
Sean clarey
Andrew marzotto


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## Hammertone

teleboli said:


> There's also excursion, conversion, dispersion and immersion, so ya, it's a rabbit hole alright.


I'll take perversion for $500, Alex.


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## jimmythegeek

@teleboli definitely speaks the truth! This could be a neat place for those who like to make "jazz noises" to exchange noise ideas and for beginners to get their feet wet. I'm gonna be presumptuous and post a chart I found for Art Farmer's version of Days of Wine and Roses (standards, standards, standards!). O have found at least one error (I think an A should be a Bb but I'll mention it in the chart post). I'll tab out the Mickey Baker type voicings, the Hall-like shell voicings I worked out for some of them last night amd perhaps part of my embarassingly bad solo arrangement. People can then add their own thoughts, figures etc. and we'll see where it goes from there. Don't be shy; I truly think everyone can contribute SOMETHING even if it's just a strum pattern idea.

@greco Assuming your serious, the general idea of an inversion is taking a chord triad and replacing the root with the 5th or 3rd. I imagine that's overly simplified and you could do it with other intervals depending on the voicing (9ths or 7ths for example). For C major you would take C-E-G (root, 3rd, 5th) and then put the G on the bottom making it G-E-C. I think that's first inversion? There are likely also more rules but that's my limited understanding lol


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## jimmythegeek

Please excuse typos and grammatical perversions in the above post. I'm still pre-coffee.


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## Mooh

Good idea. 
I'll follow this thread to see where it leads.


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## Trevor Giancola

jimmythegeek said:


> @teleboli definitely speaks the truth! This could be a neat place for those who like to make "jazz noises" to exchange noise ideas and for beginners to get their feet wet. I'm gonna be presumptuous and post a chart I found for Art Farmer's version of Days of Wine and Roses (standards, standards, standards!). O have found at least one error (I think an A should be a Bb but I'll mention it in the chart post). I'll tab out the Mickey Baker type voicings, the Hall-like shell voicings I worked out for some of them last night amd perhaps part of my embarassingly bad solo arrangement. People can then add their own thoughts, figures etc. and we'll see where it goes from there. Don't be shy; I truly think everyone can contribute SOMETHING even if it's just a strum pattern idea.
> 
> @greco Assuming your serious, the general idea of an inversion is taking a chord triad and replacing the root with the 5th or 3rd. I imagine that's overly simplified and you could do it with other intervals depending on the voicing (9ths or 7ths for example). For C major you would take C-E-G (root, 3rd, 5th) and then put the G on the bottom making it G-E-C. I think that's first inversion? There are likely also more rules but that's my limited understanding lol


Not exactly, g-e-c would be a permutation technically, I think... inverting usually means taking the top note and putting it on the bottom, or taking the bottom note and putting it on top, so C major root position is ceg, first inversion is egc, 2nd inversion is gce. And you can do this for 4-part as well


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## jimmythegeek

Trevor Giancola said:


> Not exactly, g-e-c would be a permutation technically, I think... inverting usually means taking the top note and putting it on the bottom, or taking the bottom note and putting it on top, so C major root position is ceg, first inversion is egc, 2nd inversion is gce. And you can do this for 4-part as well


You're quite right! See previous post about lack of coffee lol


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## greco

@Trevor Giancola Apologies for spelling your last name incorrectly in my earlier post (it is now spelled correctly). I was tired last evening when trying to come up with a long list of musicians I listen to. 

I never thought I'd see a thread about jazz be so popular in this forum. What a pleasant surprise!


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## Grab n Go

I'm no expert and probably have no business posting this, but I also don't want to be holding out on what I've learned in case it's helpful. Apologies in advance. This is going to be long. 

One way to get started with something jazz-like is to pick two chords, say two minor 7 chords a minor 3rd (4 frets) apart or a half step (1 fret) apart and change chords every 2 or 4 bars. Use the vocabulary you have, be it minor pentatonic, dorian, minor scales etc. As your vocabulary builds, you can do fancier stuff.

I can share a bit about how I learned to tackle a song if that helps. Others who are more knowledgeable can chime in if I'm off base.

Step one is to analyze the song and figure out what's going on. This was the hardest thing for me at the beginning because I didn't understand how the harmony moved. Everything is about tension and resolution in jazz. Chord progressions are usually targeting certain key centers and those key centers tend to change. If you can map out where the key centers are in a song, you'll have a road map for the song, which will come in handy for soloing. 

Also, there's often a common thread in a song. For instance, if it's in C major, then how do all the key changes relate to C major? Can you get away with swapping out a few notes here and there to navigate the changes? This doesn't always apply, but I try to remind myself to find the thread, because I often miss the forest for the trees.

"Hearin' the Changes" by Jerry Coker is a book that was recommended to me. It explains the common and unusual chord progressions in jazz.

Step two is to memorize the song, that is: the chord, melody and rhythm. Listen to
recordings because sometimes there's more than one version of a melody. The one in the fake book might not be the right one. A lot of standards are taken from old show tunes. Basically jazz musicians were improvising over the pop music of the day. But they "jazzified" the chord changes by inserting a lot of ii-V-I's for playing purposes. 

Figure out how you want to comp, rhythmically. Simpler is better at this point. Also, you don't have to get fancy with chord extensions when you're just learning a song. Bring in the metronome and test your memorization. Drop the metronome bpm by half and treat the click like a snare on beats 2 and 4. This helps with learning how to swing. Eliminate the click on beat 2 if your time is really good.

You can also use backing tracks like Abersold or the iReal Pro phone app. But it's good to spend time just playing to a click. It forces you to hear the changes in your head.

Step three is where you start taking steps towards improvising. More advanced players would probably skip this step, but I still find it helpful. One way to get up and running quickly is to use the major or minor scale of the key center that's being targeted. Start really simple, embellish on the main melody. Try out chromatic notes here and there. You can also try out major and minor pentatonics as well as the blues scale. Because you've mapped out the key centers you'll know when to change keys. Always feel free to loop sections of the song that are tricky.

The other thing you can do is play the corresponding arpeggios over each chord in quarter notes, eighth notes, triplets and sixteenth notes. But the catch is: wherever you are, ascending or descending, you need to immediately switch to the first available note of the next chord/arpeggio. This is a great exercise that never really goes away. You may find it easier to start with sixteenth notes first if you're not as comfortable with the arpeggios. Start slow and practice this in the same way that you practice comping, with the click on beats 2 and 4. You can also do something similar with scales.

Step four is where you start using the song as a vehicle for other stuff you've learned. Maybe you want to start using the altered scale or diminished arpeggios or what have you. Maybe there's a new lick, harmonic device or technique you've learned. Or perhaps you want to reharmonize it entirely. There's really no end to this part. The songs in your repertoire can always be revisited.

Sorry, this turned out to be really long. I'm definitely no expert. I'm just passing along some of what I learned. If I actually practiced like this regularly, I might be half decent!


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## greco

Grab n Go said:


> One way to get started with something jazz-like is to pick two chords, say two minor 7 chords a minor 3rd (4 frets) apart or a half step (1 fret) apart and change chords every 2 or 4 bars. Use the vocabulary you have, be it minor pentatonic, dorian, minor scales etc. As your vocabulary builds, you can do fancier stuff.


WOW...Great post! 
I learned a lot from your explanations.

At this point, I am doing similar to what I quoted above.


Grab n Go said:


> This was the hardest thing for me at the beginning because I didn't understand how the harmony moved. Everything is about tension and resolution in jazz. Chord progressions are usually targeting certain key centers and those key centers tend to change. If you can map out where the key centers are in a song, you'll have a road map for the song, which will come in handy for soloing.


This was very helpful. I didn't know about the progressions targeting key centres and that the centres change.

Trying to learn to play jazz on the guitar at my age (along with my limited confidence and playing skills) feels like I'm trying to climb Mount Everest ...walking backwards...barefoot...with a 200 lb. backpack...in shorts...during a snow storm.

But...I love the complex and unusual sounds of the chords that I am exploring for the first time.


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## Sketchy Jeff

i'd like to learn but not sure what i have to contribute for a group like that so it would be great to be part of the class and maybe over time decide if I've got the ability and nerve to offer something 

if it's ok to hang around the edges to begin with I'm interested

j


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## teleboli

Grab n Go said:


> I'm no expert and probably have no business posting this, but I also don't want to be holding out on what I've learned in case it's helpful. Apologies in advance. This is going to be long.
> 
> One way to get started with something jazz-like is to pick two chords, say two minor 7 chords a minor 3rd (4 frets) apart or a half step (1 fret) apart and change chords every 2 or 4 bars. Use the vocabulary you have, be it minor pentatonic, dorian, minor scales etc. As your vocabulary builds, you can do fancier stuff.
> 
> I can share a bit about how I learned to tackle a song if that helps. Others who are more knowledgeable can chime in if I'm off base.
> 
> Step one is to analyze the song and figure out what's going on. This was the hardest thing for me at the beginning because I didn't understand how the harmony moved. Everything is about tension and resolution in jazz. Chord progressions are usually targeting certain key centers and those key centers tend to change. If you can map out where the key centers are in a song, you'll have a road map for the song, which will come in handy for soloing.
> 
> Also, there's often a common thread in a song. For instance, if it's in C major, then how do all the key changes relate to C major? Can you get away with swapping out a few notes here and there to navigate the changes? This doesn't always apply, but I try to remind myself to find the thread, because I often miss the forest for the trees.
> 
> "Hearin' the Changes" by Jerry Coker is a book that was recommended to me. It explains the common and unusual chord progressions in jazz.
> 
> Step two is to memorize the song, that is: the chord, melody and rhythm. Listen to
> recordings because sometimes there's more than one version of a melody. The one in the fake book might not be the right one. A lot of standards are taken from old show tunes. Basically jazz musicians were improvising over the pop music of the day. But they "jazzified" the chord changes by inserting a lot of ii-V-I's for playing purposes.
> 
> Figure out how you want to comp, rhythmically. Simpler is better at this point. Also, you don't have to get fancy with chord extensions when you're just learning a song. Bring in the metronome and test your memorization. Drop the metronome bpm by half and treat the click like a snare on beats 2 and 4. This helps with learning how to swing. Eliminate the click on beat 2 if your time is really good.
> 
> You can also use backing tracks like Abersold or the iReal Pro phone app. But it's good to spend time just playing to a click. It forces you to hear the changes in your head.
> 
> Step three is where you start taking steps towards improvising. More advanced players would probably skip this step, but I still find it helpful. One way to get up and running quickly is to use the major or minor scale of the key center that's being targeted. Start really simple, embellish on the main melody. Try out chromatic notes here and there. You can also try out major and minor pentatonics as well as the blues scale. Because you've mapped out the key centers you'll know when to change keys. Always feel free to loop sections of the song that are tricky.
> 
> The other thing you can do is play the corresponding arpeggios over each chord in quarter notes, eighth notes, triplets and sixteenth notes. But the catch is: wherever you are, ascending or descending, you need to immediately switch to the first available note of the next chord/arpeggio. This is a great exercise that never really goes away. You may find it easier to start with sixteenth notes first if you're not as comfortable with the arpeggios. Start slow and practice this in the same way that you practice comping, with the click on beats 2 and 4. You can also do something similar with scales.
> 
> Step four is where you start using the song as a vehicle for other stuff you've learned. Maybe you want to start using the altered scale or diminished arpeggios or what have you. Maybe there's a new lick, harmonic device or technique you've learned. Or perhaps you want to reharmonize it entirely. There's really no end to this part. The songs in your repertoire can always be revisited.
> 
> Sorry, this turned out to be really long. I'm definitely no expert. I'm just passing along some of what I learned. If I actually practiced like this regularly, I might be half decent!


Lots of good points here.

This thread needs a video!

Here's a chap who basically plays in the style I aspire to. I've taken some lessons from him. Great guy. One solo and one with his trio.


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## Grab n Go

I forgot to mention... the blues! The blues is huge in jazz and a good number of jazz tunes are blues changes. Jazzing up your blues is also a great place to start.

Also, listening to jazz is way more fun if you've actually heard a song before. To start, if you can keep the main melody in your head while listening to a solo, then you'll have a deeper appreciation of what's going on. For example, I'm familiar with the tune "Beautiful Love" that was so expertly played by Chris Whiteman in the example that @teleboli posted. So hearing what Chris plays just brings a smile to my face.


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## Doug Gifford

I've been working on a notation for delving into how jazz-age harmonies work. Right now, I'm going through my band's charts and 1) converting the standard chords to number notation so that a chord's relationship to scale is emphasised. 2) positioning the chord symbols to reflect their relationship, in fifths, to the root. Thus: 1 is the baseline, 5 is slightly raised, 2 is raised twice, 6 is raised thrice and so-on.

I'm still revising as I work through the band chart book. The pdf below ends at "Coquette" because I've gotten that far. The current "standard" kicks in at "Avalon" as the notation develops. It _very_ strongly shows passages of descending fifths when that's what is driving things. The next question is what is happening when fifths are _not_ what is driving things (it seems to be mostly contrapuntal / voice-leading) and how do I show it?



http://jazzagejazz.ca/resources/song_charts/JAJ%20numbered%20wiggly.pdf


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## greco

I feel extremely embarrassed and totally remiss for not including @Jim Soloway in my original post. 
Sorry Jim...blame my aging brain.


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## teleboli

D'oh. Totally gapped the blues. Jazz evolved from blues. Tons of jazz/blues tunes of course and blues language can be inserted liberally into standards as well. And of course Rhythm Changes. D'oh. Tons of songs built on I've Got Rhythm of course but the A section of IGR is a 1,6,2,5. 1,6,2,5 is also a common turnaround in many, many standards as well.

So:

- know the jazz/blues form (different than a 1,4,5 blues)

- know the rc changes. B section as well for that matter.

- learn standards, standards, standards

There's also long and short 2,5,1's and TONS of stuff that haven't even been touched on yet, but that's what this thread is for.

Jim Soloway is another member here who is a great resource.


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## teleboli

greco said:


> I feel extremely embarrassed and totally remiss for not including @Jim Soloway in my original post.
> Sorry Jim...blame my aging brain.


Greco. While I was typing you beat me to it.


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## mawmow

Great idea ! I am not a jazman (Oh Gee ! Am I minimally a guitar player ?!), but I love standards and jazzy versions of popular pieces and movie themes of the fifties. Maybe I am totally lost, but I would try to follow anyway.


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## teleboli

I should add, if you haven't done so already, is to watch Ken Burn's Jazz documentary. As thorough an account of the complete history of the genre as I've seen.


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## jimmythegeek

teleboli said:


> I should add, if you haven't done so already, is to watch Ken Burn's Jazz documentary. As thorough an account of the complete history of the genre as I've seen.


My big problem with that doc is that it really buys the Stanley Crouch/Young Lions of the 80s narrative hook, line and sinker. I appreciate electric Miles, free stuff and fusion at least as much as bop


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## Hammertone

greco said:


> I feel extremely embarrassed and totally remiss for not including @Jim Soloway in my original post. Sorry Jim...blame my aging brain.





teleboli said:


> D'oh. Totally gapped the blues. ...


Outraged! Your punishment is to get a haircut like Ken Burns.


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## jimmythegeek

This chart is (ostensibly) for the version found on Art Farmer's album Interaction. Jim Hall is rad/the guitarist on that album. If you're picking through the melody, I'm 90% sure that the As in bars 4, 6, 20 and 22 should be Bbs. Someone with a better ear than me can confirm or deny that. If you don't read music and want to play along I can try to post tab but it might take a little while. Here are the chords as Mickey Baker (he of ye olde jazz guitar method fame) would spell them as well as some other useful variations:
Fmaj7= 1X221X OR X 8 10 9 10X
Eb7= X6868X OR 11X 11 12 11X
D7(b5b9)= 10X101110X OR 4X443X
D7/9= X54220 (someone must have a better one than this lol)
D7= 10X 10 11 10X OR X57575
G-7(minor 7th)= 3X333X OR X10X101110
Bb- = 688666 OR X13321
A-7= 5X555X OR X12X121312
D-7= XX0211 OR X5X565 OR 10X101010X
C7= X35353 OR 8X898X
Bb-7(b5)= 6X665X
F6= X810101010

Let me know how you get on and feel free to post alternate voicings, comping ideas etc. Sorry if this post is a bit of a gongshow, I scratched the voicings out over lunch.


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## starjag

I'm in ✊


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## teleboli

Hammertone said:


> Outraged! Your punishment is to get a haircut like Ken Burns.


Not the bowl Jacques! Anything but the bowl.


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## jimmythegeek

teleboli said:


> Not the bowl Jacques! Anything but the bowl.


It works with his soothing voice and beard though!


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## teleboli

You're right Jimmy. It's the sum of the parts. He does have that socially awkward college prof thing happening. I can't verify the tweed jacket elbow patches though.


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## Dorian2

Just caught this thread and thought I'd pitch in quickly. I'll assume the Real Book has been discussed. Here's my copy that been shelved since the mid 90's. I'm not so into jazz but I might have a few shuffles through for some ideas soon. Pretty much the bible for Standards I'd think. A goldmine for this type of club I'd imagine. This is the '88 edition. I think they still sell em.


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## Trevor Giancola

jimmythegeek said:


> View attachment 332044
> 
> This chart is (ostensibly) for the version found on Art Farmer's album Interaction. Jim Hall is rad/the guitarist on that album. If you're picking through the melody, I'm 90% sure that the As in bars 4, 6, 20 and 22 should be Bbs. Someone with a better ear than me can confirm or deny that. If you don't read music and want to play along I can try to post tab but it might take a little while. Here are the chords as Mickey Baker (he of ye olde jazz guitar method fame) would spell them as well as some other useful variations:
> Fmaj7= 1X221X OR X 8 10 9 10X
> Eb7= X6868X OR 11X 11 12 11X
> D7(b5b9)= 10X101110X OR 4X443X
> D7/9= X54220 (someone must have a better one than this lol)
> D7= 10X 10 11 10X OR X57575
> G-7(minor 7th)= 3X333X OR X10X101110
> Bb- = 688666 OR X13321
> A-7= 5X555X OR X12X121312
> D-7= XX0211 OR X5X565 OR 10X101010X
> C7= X35353 OR 8X898X
> Bb-7(b5)= 6X665X
> F6= X810101010
> 
> Let me know how you get on and feel free to post alternate voicings, comping ideas etc. Sorry if this post is a bit of a gongshow, I scratched the voicings out over lunch.


I’ve been playing this song for years, and I, and everyone I know play those As as As, not b flats. I just checked out the recording. It’s in a different key (Eb), so the note is a g instead of A, but the chart is correct either way


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## Grab n Go

jimmythegeek said:


> View attachment 332044
> 
> This chart is (ostensibly) for the version found on Art Farmer's album Interaction. Jim Hall is rad/the guitarist on that album. If you're picking through the melody, I'm 90% sure that the As in bars 4, 6, 20 and 22 should be Bbs. Someone with a better ear than me can confirm or deny that. If you don't read music and want to play along I can try to post tab but it might take a little while. Here are the chords as Mickey Baker (he of ye olde jazz guitar method fame) would spell them as well as some other useful variations:
> Fmaj7= 1X221X OR X 8 10 9 10X
> Eb7= X6868X OR 11X 11 12 11X
> D7(b5b9)= 10X101110X OR 4X443X
> D7/9= X54220 (someone must have a better one than this lol)
> D7= 10X 10 11 10X OR X57575
> G-7(minor 7th)= 3X333X OR X10X101110
> Bb- = 688666 OR X13321
> A-7= 5X555X OR X12X121312
> D-7= XX0211 OR X5X565 OR 10X101010X
> C7= X35353 OR 8X898X
> Bb-7(b5)= 6X665X
> F6= X810101010
> 
> Let me know how you get on and feel free to post alternate voicings, comping ideas etc. Sorry if this post is a bit of a gongshow, I scratched the voicings out over lunch.


I'm going to try to analyze a bit of this song as an example of what I was writing about earlier. This isn't necessary for learning the song. It's totally optional. But it might help with the soloing.

I won't go into explaining ii-V-I's here, but luckily there are plenty of resources on that topic. 

(Edit: I'll try to explain in another post. I'm using uppercase roman numerals for major and dominant 7th chords and lowercase for minor chords.)

My jazz brain is very rusty, but hopefully not faulty. Again, someone more experienced can jump in if I'm wrong.

This song is in F major. We start off with an Fmaj chord and then quickly to an Eb7. What the heck? Pretty sure that's what's called a tritone substitution. You could substitute an A7 instead and it would sound fine. Either way, the A7 or Eb7 resolves to 2 bars of D7 and then 2 bars of Gm.

So Eb7 (or A7) is targeting D7.

D7 is targeting Gm.

After that it's Bbm to Eb7. (That Eb7 again?) The Bbm is just the ii chord before the V chord, Eb7. But where is this ii-V going? How does that fit with the next chord, Am?

Am / Dm / Gm / C7 is a chord progression in the key of F major (a iii-vi-ii-V-I progression, the I chord being F maj). You can think of those 4 bars as F major. You may also know that D minor is the relative minor of F major (they share the same notes). A7 resolves to Dm. Where did A7 come from? Remember that tritone substitution trick earlier with the Eb7? You can easily substitute Eb7 with A7. A7 transitions nicely to Am to set up the rest of the Am / Dm / Gm / C7 chord progression.

So Bbm - Eb7 (or A7) is targeting a (iii-vi-ii-V) chord progression in the key of F major (or D minor). 

I think I'll stop there for now. It's a lot to absorb. Hopefully, I didn't totally muck it up.


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## Hammertone

teleboli said:


> Not the bowl Jacques! Anything but the bowl.


Instructions from Ken to his barber: "make me look like a gigantic penis." 
Mission accomplished!


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## jimmythegeek

Trevor Giancola said:


> I’ve been playing this song for years, and I, and everyone I know play those As as As, not b flats. I just checked out the recording. It’s in a different key (Eb), so the note is a g instead of A, but the chart is correct either way


Thanks Trevor! My ear is sketchy at best, I just needed someone to confirm its sketchiness lol.


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## laristotle




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## Jim Soloway

jimmythegeek said:


> View attachment 332044
> 
> This chart is (ostensibly) for the version found on Art Farmer's album Interaction. Jim Hall is rad/the guitarist on that album. If you're picking through the melody, I'm 90% sure that the As in bars 4, 6, 20 and 22 should be Bbs. Someone with a better ear than me can confirm or deny that. If you don't read music and want to play along I can try to post tab but it might take a little while. Here are the chords as Mickey Baker (he of ye olde jazz guitar method fame) would spell them as well as some other useful variations:
> Fmaj7= 1X221X OR X 8 10 9 10X
> Eb7= X6868X OR 11X 11 12 11X
> D7(b5b9)= 10X101110X OR 4X443X
> D7/9= X54220 (someone must have a better one than this lol)
> D7= 10X 10 11 10X OR X57575
> G-7(minor 7th)= 3X333X OR X10X101110
> Bb- = 688666 OR X13321
> A-7= 5X555X OR X12X121312
> D-7= XX0211 OR X5X565 OR 10X101010X
> C7= X35353 OR 8X898X
> Bb-7(b5)= 6X665X
> F6= X810101010
> 
> Let me know how you get on and feel free to post alternate voicings, comping ideas etc. Sorry if this post is a bit of a gongshow, I scratched the voicings out over lunch.


That Bb is just a passing note to the A.

I tend to develop my arrangements very slowly over time. I can always explain what I'm doing but I can't always explain why I've done it other than to convey a certain feeling or sentiment. In the case of Days Of Wine And Roses, I've always loved the darkness and melancholy of it. The story touches on a very real and significant part of my own life so I have a personal story to tell with the song. That makes the story more important to me than the theory.

One thing I have added is a repeating theme that ties the pieces together. This is a technique that Dave Grusin has used really well over the years and it always impressed me as both creative and a way to take a classic tune and add a personal touch to it to make it your own.

I did this video about 18 months ago. It's continued to evolve since then, especially at the end getting ever darker and more about feel and less about chops.


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## teleboli

I'm familiar with TDOWAR's so I'll take a shot at this.


This song is in F major. We start off with an Fmaj chord and then quickly to an Eb7. What the heck? Pretty sure that's what's called a tritone substitution. You could substitute an A7 instead and it would sound fine. Either way, the A7 or Eb7 resolves to 2 bars of D7 and then 2 bars of Gm.

* Relative to the FM7 the Eb7 is often referred to as the b77 chord. Just a whole step down from the tonic FM7. It's a not uncommon movement. Remember the melody note on the Eb7 is an A so that needs to be maintained. A Tritone sub would work and be nice but would need to be an A altered chord containing that A melody note. Just 2 ways of looking at it. (Melody is king, at least in the first A section, and must be played. Otherwise it's just chord changes) 

Either way, the A7 or Eb7 resolves to 2 bars of D7 and then 2 bars of Gm. 

* Yes, that's just the way the bassline/chords move. From the start (FM7) the progression is just trying to get somewhere. It's trying to get to the 2 chord. The Gm. Typical.


After that it's Bbm to Eb7. (That Eb7 again?) The Bbm is just the ii chord before the V chord, Eb7. But where is this ii-V going? How does that fit with the next chord, Am?

* Then it moves from Gm to Bm7(the 4 chord) It's moving up a minor 3rd. Another common move in jazz harmony and which appears in numerous standards. The Eb7 is still the b7 chord diatonically, no worries. The 2,5 you mention ( Bm to Eb) doesn't resolve like a typical 2,5 which would be to Ab. It resolves to Am and the melody note is a G. 


Am / Dm / Gm / C7 is a chord progression in the key of F major (a iii-vi-ii-V-I progression, the I chord being F maj). You can think of those 4 bars as F major. You may also know that D minor is the relative minor of F major (they share the same notes). A7 resolves to Dm. Where did A7 come from? Remember that tritone substitution trick earlier with the Eb7? You can easily substitute Eb7 with A7. A7 transitions nicely to Am to set up the rest of the Am / Dm / Gm / C7 chord progression.

* The 3,6,2,5 should just be thought of as part of the song structure. It's a 3,6,2,5 working it's way back toward the tonic (FM7) and the top of the form again. It can be thought of as a turnaround to get back to the top or just part of the progression, because the melody runs over it. It's both.

Ok, that's it. I'm done. If someone wants to call the jazz cops feel free. I'm homeless. They won't find me anyway.


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## teleboli

Oh for heaven's sake. Jim posted while I was typing.


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## dgreen

Here is a piece I just re arranged for my students to get them started with chord / melody playing.
Fly me to the Moon is a classic and I kept it in the key of G for ease of reading. Don't worry if you struggle with notation reading as the chords I have laid out should get you thru the piece as long as you know the basic melody. Embellish it any way you like as that is encouraged, and give it a syncopated feel.
Hopefully you can download the chart as I transferred from PDF to JPEG, if you can't, send me an email and I will forward the PDF to you
[email protected]


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## teleboli

Still the master.


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## Hammertone

BB: Well, we're heading into November, so you might want to start working on your jazz moustache. It will improve your technique for sure.


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## teleboli

I did try the jazz moustache and you're correct. Arpeggio's flowed more effectively and the more complex voicings seemed to ring clearer.

I then augmented with the quintessential goatee and found even further improvement.

I'm actually a bit apprehensive to think what one of those little jazz hats would do. Maybe too much technique.

For example, Mitch has clearly blown through the stach, goat, hat continuum.


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## teleboli




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## greco

I have been at part 1A of Marc-Andre's program (in the video above) for at least a couple of years now....i.e., learn chords, chords, chords.


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## Hammerhands

Grab n Go said:


> I'm going to try to analyze a bit of this song as an example of what I was writing about earlier.


That's the way I was taught to break down a song. Always trying to keep to the same key as long as possible. We would often write out the diatonic scale for each key.

And then we would look for opportunities!

One thing about odd chords is they are often pointing to the bass line, indicating chromatic movement, especially those slash chords. The sharp and flat 9ths and 5ths are sometimes the melody notes.

I was taught mosty from the Reader's Digest books. I should look to see what chords they have for this song...


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## Grab n Go

teleboli said:


> I'm familiar with TDOWAR's so I'll take a shot at this.
> 
> 
> This song is in F major. We start off with an Fmaj chord and then quickly to an Eb7. What the heck? Pretty sure that's what's called a tritone substitution. You could substitute an A7 instead and it would sound fine. Either way, the A7 or Eb7 resolves to 2 bars of D7 and then 2 bars of Gm.
> 
> * Relative to the FM7 the Eb7 is often referred to as the b77 chord. Just a whole step down from the tonic FM7. It's a not uncommon movement. Remember the melody note on the Eb7 is an A so that needs to be maintained. A Tritone sub would work and be nice but would need to be an A altered chord containing that A melody note. Just 2 ways of looking at it. (Melody is king, at least in the first A section, and must be played. Otherwise it's just chord changes)


Makes sense. A whole step movement isn't necessarily complicated.

Yeah, I always used to forget about factoring in the melody when analyzing. Obviously I haven't forgotten to forget!


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## Hammerhands

Hammerhands said:


> I was taught mosty from the Reader's Digest books. I should look to see what chords they have for this song...


They call the first Eb7 a Cm6, the chord chart has an eb on the D string for the lowest note. The bass line on the FMaj7 being f, e and then eb on the Cm6. The Eb7 after the Bbm is not there, it is two bars of Bbm.


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## mawmow

I hope I am not writing something stupid :
It appeared to me that you have to recognize 
the progression the piece is based on in
order to correctly name chords as there could
be inversions that look alike well known
chords at first sight.
Knowing the scale from opening would help though.
Does it make sens or I am lost ?


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## Grab n Go

mawmow said:


> I hope I am not writing something stupid :
> It appeared to me that you have to recognize
> the progression the piece is based on in
> order to correctly name chords as there could
> be inversions that look alike well known
> chords at first sight.
> Knowing the scale from opening would help though.
> Does it make sens or I am lost ?


It's definitely about recognizing some chord progressions that pop up again and again in various standards. The Jerry Coker book "Hearin' the Changes" is all about that. Recognizing those patterns is sort of the key to knowing what to play over a given chord progression.

Usually what's in the Fake Books become the accepted way to play a song (for better or worse). Mainly because that's where most players will first go to learn it. Advanced players will often reharmonize on the fly, or develop their own arrangement, so the "right" chord is a matter of interpretation. Generally has to fit with the melody, though.

Sometimes the original chord changes are quite different from the jazz version. It's fun to dig up the source if you can. Stella By Starlight made no sense to me until I saw "The Uninvited". Hearing it in the opening made perfect sense: it's movie music!


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## jimmythegeek

Grab n Go said:


> It's definitely about recognizing some chord progressions that pop up again and again in various standards. The Jerry Coker book "Hearin' the Changes" is all about that. Recognizing those patterns is sort of the key to knowing what to play over a given chord progression.
> 
> Usually what's in the Fake Books become the accepted way to play a song (for better or worse). Mainly because that's where most players will first go to learn it. Advanced players will often reharmonize on the fly, or develop their own arrangement, so the "right" chord is a matter of interpretation. Generally has to fit with the melody, though.
> 
> Sometimes the original chord changes are quite different from the jazz version. It's fun to dig up the source if you can. Stella By Starlight made no sense to me until I saw "The Uninvited". Hearing it in the opening made perfect sense: it's movie music!


I had a similar experience with If I Were A Bell. I only really knew the various Miles Davis versions before I saw a chart in the Real Book. Miles takes some (friggin' awesome) liberties with the melody that had me completely lost lol.


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## Doug Gifford

Here's a notation designed to highlight chordal progression by fifths.


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