# lets talk implied chords in a soloing context



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Raise your hand if you never thought I'd use those words in a thread title 

Someone on another forum asked for feedback on their improv skills. Lots of great suggestions were made, and the member has taken it all in and is working on his chops.

A few people mentioned about tension and release, and being able to form a proper story when writing a solo or making one improv style.

I understand the idea of implying chords, and at a lesson with Emil Werstler he played an example for me. I understand that arpeggios work well for implying the chords you are (or aren't) playing over, but how do you guys approach getting that "sound"?

I suppose what I'm getting is that I know arpeggios and how to play the basic types, but I'm curious about expanding it so that I can play licks and melodies that still accomplish it *well*. I feel I'm not a very strong lead player in that I don't normally know what I'm trying to say when I take a lead line. I understand various devices that help as far as technique and note choice, but I have a very hard time putting it into practice. I still can't play what I hear in my head, despite being given the tools to do so. Part of it is speed and technique, but that's not the whole kit.

To go back to Emil for a second, he mentions in a video (I think) that when he had to write solos for his metal band, he had to work over quick chord changes. That's kind of similar to my scenario in Safety's Off, only I'm not Emil and haven't dedicated nearly as much time to bettering my skills...

Do you guys worry about the chords you're playing over, or just the key? Do you know how how to "get your point across" in a solo? Is it possible not to rely on arpeggios to imply a Em-Dmaj-Cmaj progression in an improv setting?

Yeah, lots of questions, I know!


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I'm certainly no expert in this area and I'm looking forward to listening to other people's opinions who are far more skilled than I am.

Mostly I find that I can adapt a scale I'm comfortable with to just about anything by adding a note here and taking one away there. I'm sure all I'm doing is making alterations that actually make it a different scale, but I couldn't tell you what scale it is.

That being said, my bassist came to me with a song idea and the bass line absolutely dictated that it HAD to be C/C/Am/Am for the verse. I had a really hard time finding a way to adapt a Cm pentatonic to the progression and was forced to rethink how to approach it. I ended up developing a couple of licks to drop over the C that added the tone that made it sound major, and a couple of other licks within an Am pentatonic scale for the other bit. In the course of playing with changing between them, I found specific notes within each scale that absolutely wouldn't work as a transition between the two chords and others that seemed to be able to flow from one to the other.

A simplified way to start might be to look at the associated arpeggios in the progression and find other tones that you can access by hammering on and off, bending or sliding as transitions between the static tones of the arpeggio itself. Similar to pulling off or hammering on one finger here, one there while chording through a progression to add interest (eg. pulling off a finger while chording an Am to make it an Am7, then hammering back on at some point). I'm not sure if that makes sense...

EDIT: A further note. Something I've been working on lately is trying to PLAY a vocal melody, selecting my choice of bends, hammer ons, slides, vibrato etc. to most closely match what it sounds like the vocal is doing in a given passage.


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

^^^passing tones are what you are referring to. 
Good example in a blues/funk setting would be playing a b7 then changing to e9. When about to change walk down on d string from the b on the 9th fret to to the major 3rd of the e9 on the 6th. 9/8/7/6. See what you come up with.


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## jeancoltrane (Feb 20, 2015)

a good solo is like a well written book. it has an introduction, character development, plot, climax, resolution etc. id say the most important thing is developing a rhythmic theme. once you have a strong rhythmic motif the notes will begin to play themselves. take a simple rhythm and expand on it, gradually adding to it. 

melodically, the most important aspects are the guide tones ie. the 3rd and 7th of the chords. they are the notes which spell out the chord changes. a lot of good solos just use one scale or the "home scale" over a series of chords, but add in one or two of the chord tones as the solo develops to spell out the changes and give resolution. 'little wing' is a pretty good example. like anything else, too much of something gets predictable and boring. if you exclusively play arpeggiated lines over the chord changes the solo will lack tension and release, likewise with the home scale approach. 

a good place to start is the classic call and response you hear in blues. once you can 'respond' or resolve a lick, work on more advanced timing of the response. i like to think of it like poetry, or even the complex rhyme schemes you hear in hip hop - a punchline or word may not rhyme or 'resolve' until several bars later when you least expect it. a good improviser may start several themes without resolving them until later and not necessarily in the sequence they began. you can resolve things melodically, rhythmically.. etc 

in terms of implying chords, you hear a lot of it in modal jazz or one chord funk vamps to create movement over a static chord. so say you have a solo over a tune that lays on 1 chord longer than the other chords. say over Am, you might start with a lick that follows a Bm arpeggio, then to a similar lick over an Em arpeggio before landing on the chord tones of Am for resolution. some of these notes might be 'avoid' or wrong notes, but if you have a strong rhythmic motif it will imply consistency to the listener that will build tension and ultimately sound 'right' when you land back on the Am. the most important notes are the first and last of a line.


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

Definitely agree about the tension and resolution. I try explaining that to non-musicians, "see how it wants to resolve itself?" Some get it, others......not so much !! Lol


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Sambonee has been amazing in helping me understand lead work. If he chimes in, I'd give a listen - he can change your perspective in just a few sentences, I'm sure.


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## jeancoltrane (Feb 20, 2015)

i guess i should add, the most practical way to work on playing the changes is chord tone targeting within one position. so over em, dmaj, cmaj start in the em pentatonic box. limit yourself to just that box and work out the arpeggios for those chords within that position. once youve got that down, work on 'targetting' the chord tones as they go by. so you might start with a classic blues lick over the em, but land on the 3rd of dmaj (F#) when that chord comes around, and then land on the 5th of Cmaj (G) before resolving to the root of Em. this kind of combines the two approaches so it doesnt sound like your just running scales or arpeggios. david gilmour is a master of this. once youre comfortable with this in that position or box, rinse and repeat in the next area of the neck. 

when i solo i tend to think of a skeleton of the chord tones to target, so i might have a chord tone i want to get to, but many different ways to get there. so, see if you can just hear one note, and think of as many ways to get there as you can. you might start by targeting all the 3rds of the chords, then the 5ths, then 7ths.... then let loose and have fun.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Some really good stuff in here! Thanks 

The idea of staying in one box but hitting chord tones of other scales is a very good one and I dont think I've heard ot suggested before now (to me).


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## jeancoltrane (Feb 20, 2015)

cool, hope it helps  one of my first hardcore teachers had me doing something similar, the 'berklee position playing' method where you learn to play all the scales, in all the keys one after another in one position with specific rules as to which finger stretched when etc... ouch! pretty neat but intense stuff. i never got too deep into it, but just using that concept and doing what you can really helps. 

the cool thing like anything else on guitar, is that the arpeggio patterns are easily moveable to other keys and chords. so once you get the patterns down, you dont have to think 'oh shit, e# arpeggio" you just have to remember how those chord tones relate to whatever box youre in. i use the 5 pentatonic boxes as guidelines since they seem easiest to remember & relate to. good luck, ymmv!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I have a lot of material from lessons I was taking, between licks and different scale ideas there was a lot covered. Since I am trying to adult, I didnt really practice much (still dont).

I cant say I have a ton of time to devote to practicing or anything, but even new ideas to try when I do play, are probably going to help.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2015)

jeancoltrane said:


> a good solo is like a well written book. it has an introduction, character development, plot, climax, resolution etc.


I'm stuck in a comic book myself. lol.



adcandour said:


> Sambonee has been amazing in helping me understand lead work. If he chimes in,
> I'd give a listen - he can change your perspective in just a few sentences, I'm sure.


I watched the man play at a festival. I had him in my house and listened to him
take my guitar for a test drive prior to buying it. And more recently, jammed with
him up at the Riff Wrath Jam. I agree. He is a pretty intuitive player.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

laristotle said:


> I'm stuck in a comic book myself. lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Remind me to high five you for that line next time we get to hang out!

Sambonee got in touch, and we're going to have a phone chat about the subject. I'm very curious to hear what he has to say, as I didn't know he has an educational background in music. I'm also very excited - I really like learning new things from much more experienced people, even if I don't soak it all in.


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

Budda said:


> Raise your hand if you never thought I'd use those words in a thread title
> 
> Someone on another forum asked for feedback on their improv skills. Lots of great suggestions were made, and the member has taken it all in and is working on his chops.
> 
> ...


I feel tyhe smae way, im an o.k. lead player but when improvising i seem to get lost. Usually get a good intro to the storey and maybe a bit of a climax but the plot twist throws me for a curve.

Btw I don't envy you, metal solo's are harder than blues rock stuff and toss some odd chord changes on top and it makes it even harder. I find the "use your ears not your brain" approach works better when trying to figure out a good lead line over a complex peice. That said I don't have loads of experience with it. Sometimes improv stuff flows, sometimes it doesnt.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I don't know that metal solos are any more difficult in the sense of writing a good one, as I've heard some blues guys that have some of the same tempo capabilities. 

Some people think I'm a lead guitar player, but I think that's largely because my "rhythm parts" come off as leads to people who don't listen to a lot of metal. 

I really want to get in some practice with playing within the chords behind a lead section as opposed to just the key of the song, but I need to find some good backing tracks and starting points.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Budda said:


> I really want to get in some practice with playing within the chords behind a lead section as opposed to just the key of the song, but I need to find some good backing tracks and starting points.


I think what you're referring to is called vertical improvisation.

"An improvisational technique where the player is concerned with improvising over each chord in a progression as if it existed as a separate harmonic entity."

Doing this often requires knowing many, if not all scale modes because the function of the chord within the key is a factor in scale selection (ie. I, IV, V).

That being said, trust your ears, try putting fingers where you might not immediately think to go. Sometimes that one note you DON'T expect (but works) can have a huge impact.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I don't think I've heard the term, JB!

I know modes and scales help, but at the same time - it's 11 notes (then the octave), and simply having a sense of where to land. Since I spent so long working on just knowing a couple scales and working within them, I'm *sort of* trying to learn new methods. I've grown up a bit (haha) in that I'm much more into the ideas behind phrasing and tension and release, on top of my desire to play fast music. I appreciate a blues solo as much as a metal solo for the fact that I'm not that great at either!

Here's a video of a forum friend of mine jamming over "the thrill is gone": really cool runs, repeating phrases, etc. Dude has legato for days haha.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIf2YBJoWG4


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I checked out the video, no denying the talent (wish I had that much), just not my cup o' tea...a little busy, but perhaps it was done purposely if it was for a contest or something. A lot of skills demonstrated in it though. I didn't analyze it or anything, but my initial thoughts were that other than some of the repeating runs altered for the different chords, it was mostly within a key. I could be wrong though.

Initially I thought that you had something a bit more specifically chord based in what you were describing as far as your goal. I thought more jazz-like. Jazz players tend to rely on vertical improvisation far more than some other genres.

FYI, I only know the term because I've probably read these 1 or 2 sections (chord progressions, soloing techniques) in this theory book I have about a thousand times looking for SOMETHING, ANYTHING that resembles inspiration. I can't actually sit down and learn the scales though, much like tab, the marks on the page quickly become a blur, almost like white noise.

As far as "not being great at either", you're probably far better than you think you are, even if it's not "greatness". I don't strive for greatness or perfection, improvement is enough for me.

Much respect for putting it all out there and really starting to think outside your own personal box. Maybe when adcan rolls into town we can get together or something, although, I'm not metal AT ALL. I doubt I even have anything that could be described as a distortion pedal. OD, yeah, distortion...not really.

Regardless, I keep looking at this thread for some insight as well. Keep us abreast of your progress, thoughts, realizations...


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Thanks JB!

I havent been playing much metal lately, but it's still a fair bit of what I listen to. I've taught a lot of people, I don't judge what people can do. I've seen enough from friends who can play me under the table (and my brother).

The vid was indeed for a contest.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

@Budda...Have you considered listening to a variety of jazz guitarists to see if you can pick up anything "through your ears" from them? Maybe something will be applicable and you could "alter" it and use it ??

Maybe this idea sounds crazy to you...if it is, have a laugh on me. 

Here is a Miles Davis composition called "Right Off (A Tribute to Jack Johnson) Part 1" 
John McLaughlin and Sonny Sharrock play guitar on this. 

If nothing else, your brother might enjoy the bass in this. Miles always had very strong bass players IMO.

[video=youtube;DEBKksupBVA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEBKksupBVA[/video]

Cheers

Dave


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Well sambonee and I got in touch, and I'm going to try 1. Melodies over a drone note and b) learning multiple ways to play "twinkle twinkle Little star" in the same key.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Budda said:


> !
> 
> Here's a video of a forum friend of mine jamming over "the thrill is gone": really cool runs, repeating phrases, etc. Dude has legato for days haha.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JIf2YBJoWG4



Wow Budda your friend blew my mind!


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

Budda said:


> learning multiple ways to play "twinkle twinkle Little star" in the same key.



OMG!!! I was just going to say this!!!!

I kid, I kid!


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Trying to do quick runs(actually lightening speed for me) maybe composed of 3 or 5 notes on the GBE strings!

I also take the songs and fool around with rhythm and timing. Amazing how different you can make the same 4 or 5 chords sound completely different.


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

this is a fellow who really dominates on the guitar IMO. I met him years ago. is a master of phrasing and legato / staccato. Nice to see the free lessons of such quality.

http://www.guitarscanada.com/showthread.php?72457-Juan-C-Madera-Santander-Spain


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I do recall a link from a spanish guy who was quite good. Im gonna listen to that link while I do some cleaning tonight.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Great stuff jeancoltrane. We learned that trick in the 2 year music course in Grant MacEwan as well. Start with just a couple of chord chnges in 1 position, then add more when you get to know them. You can pretty much work out a sweet sounding 5 minute solo over a bunch of chord changes using that approach.

Of course what I stated above is an over simplification, because avoid notes for modes and pasing tones come into effect as well, but that is the general idea.

Say Budda....I'd try starting with something you are really familiar with, maybe the Pentatonic minor scale over a blues progression, to try this at first. 

Good luck with this. It takes a bit of patience and practice.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

The fastest way to start implying chords for me is triads. Say you are playing over G major chord, play G major triad (G, B, D). Now, think of G major as the root chord on the key of G major, what other two major chords (and triads) you have in that key? Of course, C major and D major, therefore every time you play G major chord in your song you can imply C and D major, this is specially useful when you need ideas for improvisation.


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