# The official "Made in China" thread



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Let the games begin....please try to play by the rules.

Cheers

Dave


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

I would like to begin by discussing Scooby-Doo.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Ok.....could someone please tell me where in central Alberta.....Edmonton to Calgary....I can get one of these counterfit, fake, pos made in China guitars. Want to see how they compare to my other guitars. Something I can hold in my hands and try before I pay out some money......just like I've done with any of my other guitars.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Maxer said:


> I would like to begin by discussing Scooby-Doo.


Fine...just keep to the rules......OK?

S-D could be a very inflammatory topic.

BTW...Will your discussion include anything about guitars that are Made in China? 

Cheers

Dave


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

didnt we allredy do this? as Yogi Berra might say,im getting that deja vu feeling,all over again.

im going to let other people talk about this ,ive said all i had to say pretty much.

but to be honest....i dont think you can start a thread like this and just say "play nice " and expect it no to derail. i mean you know its going to. even though Maxer and I for example disagreed in the other thread,i think we kept it pretty civil. but theres going to be people who will go over the top with it and itll devolve into insults.

if anyone disagrees with that,ill give you a +/- of 3 1/2 pages at 5 to 1 odds. ill be happy to take your money

Bobby


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Bobby said:


> didnt we allredy do this? as Yogi Berra might say,im getting that deja vu feeling,all over again.
> 
> im going to let other people talk about this ,ive said all i had to say pretty much.
> 
> ...


Bobby..I did this so the OP of the other ("should I buy this Tokai" thread) could get some peace ...and specific answers.

I put the "play nice" in the first post as a gentle reminder...I am not convinced that it will have any results.

I'll take you up on your bet...5 to 1 odds at 3 1/2 pages ...I think it will take more than that to get warmed up...IF anybody actually "migrates" to this thread.

Cheers

Dave


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

bobby: it was indeed pretty civil. Peace out.

Greco: about guitars made in China: I feel like I already wrote a couple of essays on the topic, earlier today. Gonna take a breather, then peek back in later. And I agree - no talking about S-D. Man, that's just a ticking time bomb.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Maxer said:


> Greco: about guitars made in China: I feel like I already wrote a couple of essays on the topic, earlier today. Gonna take a breather, then peek back in later. And I agree - no talking about S-D. Man, that's just a ticking time bomb.


*Please post more than a total of 3 1/2 pages worth of info*....anything you want, your summer vacation, favourite recipes, family tree, price of Corn Flakes in Borneo ...even S-D (if you run out of ideas)

Cheers

Dave


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## Overt1 (Aug 31, 2009)

if you guys hate anything MIC, i dare you to check the tags on everything you own, and throw them away. fyi, your iphones are MIC.


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

greco said:


> *Please post more than a total of 3 1/2 pages worth of info*....anything you want, your summer vacation, favourite recipes, family tree, price of Corn Flakes in Borneo ...even S-D (if you run out of ideas)
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


your a funny cat Dave,ill give you that......

but seriously,dont do as he says,hes trying to skew the results!!!! lol

Bobby


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Bobby said:


> hes trying to skew the results!!!! lol
> 
> Bobby


3 ...............


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

and.................


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

1/2..........................


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

pages................................


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

dont you mean 2 and a half,Dave?


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## Guitar-n00b (Jul 17, 2010)

lol finally this turns good hearted unlike my thread that you guys had to ruin *kidding* that message was not meant to be sent for one side of the argument only, continue the games, I will be back to check who wins the 2010 GC Olympics.


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## starjag (Jan 30, 2008)

Just checked under the hood... my MacBook Pro was made in China.


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## Overt1 (Aug 31, 2009)

my imac is made in china too. fawk. WTT for a pc made with american parts


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Hmmm.....no Ipad, Iphone or Imac here......but I have an older PC....IBM that says assembled in the USA, 250 mbyte hdd. Runs windows '95. 'bout 1/2the laptops are made in china. Most of the guitars are Mij but my amps are made in Canada so that balances out. Cell phone is mij but all it does is make phone calls. Not a lot in the house from China. Bikes,carand truck were made in the states. Oh well........maybe this will become page 3.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Okay I'll go for some of the things originally or first made in China:

paper, printing, gunpowder, compass, ceramics...


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Don't forget clothes! that's a biggie. Lots of office supplies, too - staplers, task chairs, molded plastic sorting trays, etc. And where do we send our old, clapped-out electronics? One guess.

I've been tallying up what guitars I have come from where. The Chinese list is longer than I originally thought: three Washburns - a Rover, an X-1- superstrat, and an XB120 bass. Plus 1 Epiphone SG. And a Hagstrom Super Swede. Compared to around 6 guitars that are MIK (Washburns and Epiphones), a couple of Yamahas made in Taiwan, three early 80s Japanese guitars, one old Guild S-100 that's American-made, six Godins and one Larrivée. So that's about one out of every 5 guitars being Chinese-made, and around two-thirds of them being Asian-made instruments.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

So, I guess I must have missed a lot of mud-slinging back in that Tokai thread!!! I wonder what happened...oh well, never mind. I am glad to see a thread specifically made to argue the merit of Chinese guitar products and production. But my question is this: Are there any good quality Indonesian, Taiwanese, Korean, Phillipino or other Asian-built guitars? Are there any really good acoustics? Which factories make great LP-style or Strat-style guitars, etc?


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## Gene Machine (Sep 22, 2007)

I had an Ibanez Artcore archtop (ES175 type) that I A-B'd against a real ES 175. It wasn't a fair fight, the Ibanez won in all categories. They have really stepped up their game with quality control.

What bugs me is when companies want to charge 'Made in USA' prices for MIC products. Even though (in some cases) quality is higher, value is not higher, and cost of manufacturing is much lower, so it's a $ grab for the company. 

I would own and play a MIC instrument, no probs. As long as it's a decent instrument.

On a side note, my wife read a book called " A year without Made in China" where the author tries to go a year without buying or using anything that is MIC. I didn't read it, but it was incredibly difficult, as you could well imagine.

G


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Hmmm


I think the better three questions would be:

Licensed
OEM on machines taken over by boat and plane leaving their original North American factories empty and the towns folk out of work
Un-Licensed

China is just the "current country of dubious morals and poor people control" and they are begining to crack down on that, considering how many babies died when drinking melamine instead of milk. So, in a few years, when morals are elevated, people take more pride in what they do, and the government catches up to corporations with laws and rules, there will be a new place to do business at a cut rate without pesky laws and unions getting in the way.. maybe Laos? Or whatever the Congo is being called today. Could be good the Congo, the government hold guns to the peoples head and tell the people to WORK NOW, they also take the money and the people are given a stipend to live on. Win Win for big companies looking to save a buck and then the factories in China will be as empty as the ones in Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Indonesia, Vietnam .... etc. and we will still have our toaster for 10 dollars that breaks in 6 weeks and our cars with computers that catch on fire with exploding caps that spontaneously accelerate into other cars....

I remember 20 some years ago the same question was raised about Made in Japan. By the 1980's quality had become the primary focus for the Japanese people, and they became a leader in new manufacture and technology. ... and my memory is cruddy, there was a song about being made in Japan with sony walkmans and nikon cameras or someother and I am just not remembering the right one at the moment >.<



OH And, another memory from Grade 9 High School History: "It was in the 1950's a derogatory put down to say something was "Made in Japan" and though shocking to hear that said now in the 1980's in the 1950's the Japanese people were not making quality products, items tended to be of cheep manufacture and broke easily. Then the Japanese tourists came here and found out what North America really wanted, and when they went home they made that, and became what they are now, the world leaders in manufacturing."



Alex Csank said:


> So, I guess I must have missed a lot of mud-slinging back in that Tokai thread!!! I wonder what happened...oh well, never mind. I am glad to see a thread specifically made to argue the merit of Chinese guitar products and production. But my question is this: Are there any good quality Indonesian, Taiwanese, Korean, Phillipino or other Asian-built guitars? Are there any really good acoustics? Which factories make great LP-style or Strat-style guitars, etc?


I would say that the Hun then Chin Empires have 1000's of years of instrument making experience. In all manner of instrument, not just the white bread three piece rock group instruments. The Iranian Tar may be newer to them than it is to us here, but the skilled labour of actually making a thin walled stringed instrument is much the same no matter the instruments, a guitar luthier can become a violin luthier easily because the tools and skill are closely related. The trick will be to get the old crafts people to "know" what is wanted and to make that. Though for the mewling masses a 100 dollar introductory guitar package is always going to be in demand, for those that get past that first terrifying experience of a guitar there are the much more serious people that will want a seriously well built instrument.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

hum..wonder how long this one will last!....Ok, here are my toughs on this one. There are 2 ways of looking at it. First, the Guitar industry that is building say guitars like the lower End Epiphones and Fenders, and second, the Counterfeit industry. Now, these are 2 different beast really that seem to get a tad mixed up. 

Our first is legitimate business enterprise who is making low-end starter kits and such for beginners and our second is a bunch of warehouse working in the sweatshop style to make a TON of guitars each week. 

Right now the sweatshop are taking the market with their counterfeit POS and this is what is giving Chinese made guitars a bad name. A kid starting out with almost no knowledge of the guitar industry will no worry about where his guitar was made...what's important is that he HAS a guitar now.. There are place on Craiglist and Kiijii that are selling those guitars by the truck load. Most gear head will look at those adds and see the Con right away. But imagine you're starting out and you see those guitars are Ridiculous price and with BRAND NAMES on them, you'll start wondering, and end-up getting one. I mean you're getting a real US Gibson LES PAUL for 650$ with a Case?...WOUZZER...what a deal. 90% of the folks selling those counterfeit a advertising them as some sort of US Version made in ASIA under License for the Brand Name, and they get screwed. Some will put sell them even higher. in the 900$ to 1300$, and it still works. They caught a guy in Montreal a few weeks ago, he was selling between 30 and 50 guitars a month, with a 200% profit margin. 

Now this is mainly thank to the Internet really. As much as the internet made incredible Deals possible, that it made getting POS easier. go back 10 years or so, and buying a guitar from another country was like unseen really. But now it's common place, but it's getting trickier by the day not to get conned. 

Are the brand names made in China like Fender or Ephiphones worth their prices?...for me it's hard to say. My brother in law's son bought a Epiphone G-310 SG and a Les Paul Special, and my god it sucks. Yes i'm comparing to an actual SG Standard or LP, but even for 279$...it was an awful guitar. even after spending about 30 minutes trying to set it up, it was nothing like the real deal. But like most will say, it's 15% of the price of an actual SG Standard. SO yeah ok, for the money, it was ok. Still, when John Patrick Tried my own LP, he was like GOD DAMN. But to him, he still had TWO guitars. He was excited. Now he wants to sell them and get a decent playable guitar. 

SO yes, there is a Market for the young folks or new players i guess if you stick to brand names. Will this shops improve over time!...i don't see why not. But those Counterfeit ones have only one goal in mind, and it is NOT quality, it's to make a shit load of money having kids thinking they are getting legitimate brand name instruments.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

And here is where it gets a little "political" though not in any partisan way.

Our nations government is the top-dog regulator of ALL items imported into Canada. 

Many years ago and for many years they maintained safety, and security of all items imported. Yes, counterfeit "anything" could still slip in, but the national governing body would put an end to it, the national police would investigate, people would be arrested and go to jail.

Fast forwarding 30 years to our world of today, I am sure our national government has NO idea what is or is not coming or going from this country. The rules, regulations, and oversight are so lax. The end result is a market that has been given carte blanche to take advantage of everyone here rather than providing any first lines of defense.

Maybe the ire should not be directed at the people who would take advantage of little old ladies and children, but at the governmental systems that are allowing this to happen and to happen with impunity. When was the last billion dollar counterfeit operation raid done? I cannot think of one such in over 10 years, and yet we KNOW a HUGE portion of the product coming from world wide here is fake.

As I said, non-partisan, I don't care WHO is in charge of the nations security at the time, to me that is irrelevant; the security needs come first and personal stupidities last.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Gene Machine said:


> What bugs me is when companies want to charge 'Made in USA' prices for MIC products. Even though (in some cases) quality is higher, value is not higher, and cost of manufacturing is much lower, so it's a $ grab for the company. G


All companies want to make higher margins... it's only natural... cheap overseas labour allows for higher profit margins in sales back home. Expect rising fuel costs to offset this however, making imports significantly less attractive to people, and hopefully encouraging more creation of quality products on home soil.

But the other factor is that keeping import prices really cheap can backfire on a company. Gibson allowing Epis to be sold for peanuts can have the effect of making Gibson LPs and SGs look hideously expensive. It's a fine line have to walk in order to maximize their sales potential in two distinctly different markets.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I have this. It is MIC.


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## Jimi D (Oct 27, 2008)

Some exceptional guitars and mandolins - among the best made in the world - come from China:

Eastman Guitars

Of course, any of us _can_ choose to pretend that only the sweatshops exist and the Chinese are too corrupt or stupid or cheap to actually be capable of producing world class guitars - the Ostrich Contingent is proud and strong on the Internets, so no one lacks for companionship...

As an aside, the Chinese space program is pursuing a plan to send Chinese astronauts to the moon from their own manned space station by 2020 - they'll be there long before we ever get back... 

/thread


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## bobb (Jan 4, 2007)

Jimi D said:


> Some exceptional guitars and mandolins - among the best made in the world - come from China:
> 
> Eastman Guitars
> 
> ...


For quality MIC instruments, I will also add Saga Musical Instruments who distribute Blueridge, Rover, Kentucky and Gold Star along with TML who handle Recording King and The Loar. The difference is that these companies are actively watching over QC at the factories used in China to make sure only good quality products make it to North America.

Not sure who this guy is but he's playing a MIC Blueridge:

[youtube]NnNFryHonQo[/youtube]


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## Overt1 (Aug 31, 2009)

bobb said:


> For quality MIC instruments, I will also add Saga Musical Instruments who distribute Blueridge, Rover, Kentucky and Gold Star along with TML who handle Recording King and The Loar. The difference is that these companies are actively watching over QC at the factories used in China to make sure only good quality products make it to North America.
> 
> Not sure who this guy is but he's playing a MIC Blueridge:


the same saga that makes those saga guitar kits? i've checked one out before; they were not too good, but a lot people ended up making pretty instruments with em. i guess their totally finished guitars are a different story.


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## bobb (Jan 4, 2007)

Overt1 said:


> the same saga that makes those saga guitar kits? i've checked one out before; they were not too good, but a lot people ended up making pretty instruments with em. i guess their totally finished guitars are a different story.


I haven't heard anything great about the kits either but their mid-upper level instruments get very favorable reviews.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I would never buy a made in China guitar, but not because of its build quality. When I was younger the beginner guitars made in Japan and Korea were horrid compared to the made in China stuff of today. Its allowed kids to buy perfectly working instruments at a cut rate price. Where would our computer/TV/electronics industry be without China? Do you not remember the 80s and 90s when a computer cost as much as a car, a beginner guitar that was half way decent was $500, and our TVs were thousand dollar 15 inchers? China has boosted our standard of living way up, and thank them for that. As for the traditional builders in China building these things for thousands of years, thats not entirely correct. When the revolution happened, all of these family run business where wiped out. Finito. Gone. Sianara. So if you want one of those instruments, you will not find one unless it was built a very long time ago. Anything sold today claiming to be built by these people is just some smart marketing for the gullible......


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Accept2 said:


> I would never buy a made in China guitar, but not because of its build quality. When I was younger the beginner guitars made in Japan and Korea were horrid compared to the made in China stuff of today. Its allowed kids to buy perfectly working instruments at a cut rate price. Where would our computer/TV/electronics industry be without China? Do you not remember the 80s and 90s when a computer cost as much as a car, a beginner guitar that was half way decent was $500, and our TVs were thousand dollar 15 inchers? China has boosted our standard of living way up, and thank them for that. As for the traditional builders in China building these things for thousands of years, thats not entirely correct. When the revolution happened, all of these family run business where wiped out. Finito. Gone. Sianara. So if you want one of those instruments, you will not find one unless it was built a very long time ago. Anything sold today claiming to be built by these people is just some smart marketing for the gullible......


Would not the lowering of prices ie cost be in large part due to the advances in the components and materials themselves? I have a very old laptop at home and it weighs about 20 lbs. I would also assume that the advances in automated assembly, to some regard, has lowered the cost and price as well. I am assuming here of course, that China was not responsible for the actual inventions, improvements etc. I was always under the assumption that they were mainly a cheap source of labour. I am not suggesting for one minute that the Chinese people are nothing but a bunch of dumb drones either. But in terms of the electronics trade they are not the leaders on the tech side. I might be wrong


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Accept2 said:


> I would never buy a made in China guitar, but not because of its build quality.... As for the traditional builders in China building these things for thousands of years, thats not entirely correct. When the revolution happened, all of these family run business where wiped out. Finito. Gone. Sianara. So if you want one of those instruments, you will not find one unless it was built a very long time ago. Anything sold today claiming to be built by these people is just some smart marketing for the gullible......


So why wouldn't you buy a guitar that's MIC - the usual political reasons people cite, or something else? Or is it the hardware issues - tuners, electronics you don't trust….?

I was one of the guys who said that China has been making instruments for thousands of years. It was a reaction to people who might think the Chinese people have never had the skill and delicacy of hand to build quality wooden instruments - not a suggestion that all the plants churning out guitars in our era are managed by wizard builders respecting the ancient traditions, etc. No doubt it's a factory business and the business is pumping out gear in good numbers - not unlike Fender with its Mexican branch plants or Yamaha with its Taiwan and Indonesian operations.

Agreed, today's budget guitars beat the hell out of ones made in the 60s and 70s.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Maxer said:


> So why wouldn't you buy a guitar that's MIC - the usual political reasons people cite, or something else? Or is it the hardware issues - tuners, electronics you don't trust….?


That is what I am wondering also....I thought I had missed the point or something.

Cheers

Dave


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## starjag (Jan 30, 2008)

I love a great counterfeit! Guitars, purses, shoes, whatever... if I cannot tell the difference, I will buy it. I have amazed a ton of Fendir, Gibsun, Guci, Addidas, and Rollex products. Some of them perfect replicas of products long discontinued.

It is not an easy thing to do. A few years ago I was after this Rolex 3525 Oyster perfect replica, but the seller was not willing to ship to Canada. I drove all the way to Salt Lake City to get it.

What a rush holding such a perfect timing machine in my hands! My friends are always impressed by it. I do not wear it too often, but when I do, I really feel proud. Thanks Chinese counterfeit artists! Keep the good things coming!


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Accept2 said:


> ...When the revolution happened, all of these family run business where wiped out. Finito. Gone. Sianara. So if you want one of those instruments, you will not find one unless it was built a very long time ago. Anything sold today claiming to be built by these people is just some smart marketing for the gullible......


Do you have a degree in 'Chinese History'? Because unless you do, or have other very specific knowledge you are not sharing with anyone, you are quite patently incorrect. As a broad generalization, the "Revolution", "Counter-Revolution" and the "Post-Revolutionary Periods" of recent Chinese history did indeed force the shut-down and ruin of MANY of the old hand-crafted artisan shops and small factories...but certainly not ALL! There are still plenty of multi-century old businesses still operating in China, much un-changed over the past 200-300 years. These shops make some wonderful ceramics, wooden furniture, leather products, stained-glass, traditional musical instruments and many other products. You would be very hard-pressed to be able to tell the difference between their products of today and those made 500 years ago.

Having said that, I don't have any specific knowledge of any such 'guitar' factory, and I certainly would not place any electric guitar design into that category, unless the Chinese also invented the electric guitar and we just don't know that yet.

In any event, saying that a country with mega-years of civilized history, including a very rich musical instrument manufacturing history lost everything because of one of their many cultural revolutions is not just an overly broad generalization, it is also quite incorrect. I find it absolutely discouraging to read so many opinions based upon 'scanty' information...and it smacks of the general degradation of fact and truth because anyone can say anything they wish to on the internets! 

I also find it interesting that you would say that you are surrounded by "Guitars Canada Luddites". From Wikkipedia, the history of 'Luddites' follows:

_The Luddites were a social movement of British textile artisans in the nineteenth century who protested – often by destroying mechanized looms – against the changes produced by the Industrial Revolution, which they felt was leaving them without work and changing their way of life. It took its name from Ned Ludd. In modern usage, "Luddite" is a term describing those opposed to industrialization, automation, computerization or new technologies in general. _

Is that what you were trying to say?

In any event, I am not trying to attack you personally or create a 'flame war' in any way. I just don't like to see the kind of over-generalization which can lead to mis-information and prejudice.

By the way, I am not Chinese. I am a Canadian living in the USA whose Father's family was Hungarian and Mother's famiy was your typical Scotch-Irish Canadian. I have no business involving China and I am NOT trying to sell anything Chinese. I also do not believe that China has any kind of a lock on making good guitars...nor does any other country.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Maxer said:


> So why wouldn't you buy a guitar that's MIC - the usual political reasons people cite, or something else? Or is it the hardware issues - tuners, electronics you don't trust….?


Some people would rather pay more for a product to support North American workers. I am one............


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Alex Csank said:


> Do you have a degree in 'Chinese History'? Because unless you do, or have other very specific knowledge you are not sharing with anyone, you are quite patently incorrect. As a broad generalization, the "Revolution", "Counter-Revolution" and the "Post-Revolutionary Periods" of recent Chinese history did indeed force the shut-down and ruin of MANY of the old hand-crafted artisan shops and small factories...but certainly not ALL! There are still plenty of multi-century old businesses still operating in China, much un-changed over the past 200-300 years. These shops make some wonderful ceramics, wooden furniture, leather products, stained-glass, traditional musical instruments and many other products. You would be very hard-pressed to be able to tell the difference between their products of today and those made 500 years ago.


I used to believe the whole Chinese artistry thing, but 100% of the people I manage right now are recent immigrants from China. They have corrected my thinking by telling me why they all want to come here, and It aint for our Big Macs. While Chinese companies and their government can paint a rosy picture, well you know the rest of what I will type........


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Accept2 said:


> Some people would rather pay more for a product to support North American workers. I am one............


AMen to that.


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## LowWatt (Jun 27, 2007)

al3d said:


> AMen to that.


Yep. Me too.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

i understand supporting North American products. So you do that for guitars and music gear. I expect you might have a wee bit harder time doing that for a range of products, including consumer electronics, clothing, automobiles, food…. if you were to take that philosophy and extend it across all aspects of your life you would certainly find your wallet would take a beating.

The thing about guitars made in North America is that they don't absolutely have to be punishingly expensive. Godin does a great job of delivering value for your money and they tend to be very competitive with gear coming out of Asia. I realize you may not like Godins however and that's about the only small-to-mid-sized North America company I can think of which aggressively prices its offerings.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

it depend..when the choice is there. I like to use it. When you're talking for exemple of Consumer electronics, is there actually a North American company that makes TV's?....i honnestly don't know any. Food..i doubt we get found from China appart from the obvious. Cars..same thing. Chinese don't make Cars we have here right?...in Anycase, i drive a Dodge. Clothing..same thing. most of the stuff we buy here is either Canadien made or NA made. 



Maxer said:


> i understand supporting North American products. So you do that for guitars and music gear. I expect you might have a wee bit harder time doing that for a range of products, including consumer electronics, clothing, automobiles, food…. if you were to take that philosophy and extend it across all aspects of your life you would certainly find your wallet would take a beating.
> 
> The thing about guitars made in North America is that they don't absolutely have to be punishingly expensive. Godin does a great job of delivering value for your money and they tend to be very competitive with gear coming out of Asia. I realize you may not like Godins however and that's about the only small-to-mid-sized North America company I can think of which aggressively prices its offerings.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

al3d said:


> it depend..when the choice is there. I like to use it. When you're talking for exemple of Consumer electronics, is there actually a North American company that makes TV's?....i honnestly don't know any. Food..i doubt we get found from China appart from the obvious. Cars..same thing. Chinese don't make Cars we have here right?...in Anycase, i drive a Dodge. Clothing..same thing. most of the stuff we buy here is either Canadien made or NA made.


China does make cars. Loads of 'em. They're coming to market here, too… expect to see them in the next couple of years. Kind of inevitable, really. The great thing is, North American automakers are coming back fighting. It's a good time to be a car buyer.

But if the principle is to support North America, it's not just China - it's cars made in Japan, Germany, Italy, Korea, etc.

As for clothing - really? All Canadian/American-made? Footwear too? Not calling you a liar but I'd love to see a breakdown of those items.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Maxer said:


> China does make cars. Loads of 'em. They're coming to market here, too… expect to see them in the next couple of years. Kind of inevitable, really. The great thing is, North American automakers are coming back fighting. It's a good time to be a car buyer.
> 
> But if the principle is to support North America, it's not just China - it's cars made in Japan, Germany, Italy, Korea, etc.
> 
> As for clothing - really? All Canadian/American-made? Footwear too? Not calling you a liar but I'd love to see a breakdown of those items.



I said WHEN POSSIBLE..LOL. i'm sure i got CHinese made clothes and i don't even know it.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

You cant really escape it anymore. Somewhere there is a "made in china" sticker on 3/4 of the products we are buying.


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## starjag (Jan 30, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> You cant really escape it anymore. Somewhere there is a "made in china" sticker on 3/4 of the products we are buying.


More like 85%


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Including most of the computers we're all posting with! Talk about market penetration.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Maxer said:


> Including most of the computers we're all posting with! Talk about market penetration.


the average working person has been feeling the "penetration" for years now in terms of lost jobs and wages


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> the average working person has been feeling the "penetration" for years now in terms of lost jobs and wages


And a lost perspective of what their country stands for. Our country now simply exports all the wood to China, and imports it all back as finished product. We were at one time producers, now we are just a consumption society. We produce very little. It wasnt that long ago when a little tiny country called Canada was the number 2 steel producer in the world. The real question is will we become like the US? Will we keep buying so much crap that dollar stores pop up everywhere? Will we buy so much crap that retail giants from the US move in because they can make a buck up here selling us crap? How much crap do we really need? If we bought less crap, maybe we could use our money to buy less amounts of higher quality products..........


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

I look at my nefew's generation, he's 21, and OH MY GOD..it's insane. they need to have it ALL, Everything i mean. every toy, he changes cell phones at least twice a year, gets every new Video Game that comes out, and ALL his friends, girl or boy are like that basicaly. the notion of Saving a bit of cash is TOTALY lost on him. DO NOT ASK HIM to work overtime..evenings, week-ends..HELL NO, that will take away from his "ME TIME". So his generation are Dumed even at his age, BUY BUY BUY...ALWAYS. I would never have considered buying something on a loan at 21, shit like TV's Labtops, cellphones..realy?...As long as this generation keeps this up...it ain't gonna be pretty.



Accept2 said:


> And a lost perspective of what their country stands for. Our country now simply exports all the wood to China, and imports it all back as finished product. We were at one time producers, now we are just a consumption society. We produce very little. It wasnt that long ago when a little tiny country called Canada was the number 2 steel producer in the world. The real question is will we become like the US? Will we keep buying so much crap that dollar stores pop up everywhere? Will we buy so much crap that retail giants from the US move in because they can make a buck up here selling us crap? How much crap do we really need? If we bought less crap, maybe we could use our money to buy less amounts of higher quality products..........


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Accept2 said:


> And a lost perspective of what their country stands for. Our country now simply exports all the wood to China, and imports it all back as finished product. We were at one time producers, now we are just a consumption society. We produce very little. It wasnt that long ago when a little tiny country called Canada was the *number 2 steel producer in the world*. The real question is will we become like the US? Will we keep buying so much crap that dollar stores pop up everywhere? Will we buy so much crap that retail giants from the US move in because they can make a buck up here selling us crap? How much crap do we really need? If we bought less crap, maybe we could use our money to buy less amounts of higher quality products..........


A drive around Hamilton proves that. There are a lot of vacant building down there now. You can breath better but you cant afford your rent. Along the canal banks where I live we had a huge paper mill industry. At least 6 plants within a 20 mile radius. There are two left now at maybe 1/4 capacity. I remember driving over to Buffalo (Lackawana) where the Bethlehem steel mill used to be. That was one huge facility there. You could drive for miles on that property. There were over 20,000 people employed there at one time. It is totally empty now.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Accept2 said:


> And a lost perspective of what their country stands for. Our country now simply exports all the wood to China, and imports it all back as finished product. We were at one time producers, now we are just a consumption society. We produce very little. It wasnt that long ago when a little tiny country called Canada was the number 2 steel producer in the world. The real question is will we become like the US? .


I agree with your sentiments, though it's a little late. This looks to me like an irreversible process. The country to the south of us has gone, in a remarkably short period of time, from the world's largest producer and exporter of goods to the world's largest debtor nation. We are already very much like our American cousins… there are some differences, yes, but we tend to buy into much the same standard of living and crave much the same in the way of material goods. Culturally, we are pretty much slave-linked to America, for better or worse.

What we are living through is the decline of one world power (one which we are very strongly linked to) and the rise of other powers elsewhere in the world. We are going to be obliged to form new alliances and form new markets. The world is getting smaller and more desperate - we're going to have to think harder and try to view the world from a perspective much broader than what we've been accustomed to.

We will not likely change our buying habits and lifestyle urges until it is too late. Then we won't have a choice. We have our work cut out for us, that's for sure.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

You have made sense of what is going on in my head about this whole thing. You said it more clearly (and more diplomatically) than I could have.



Maxer said:


> I agree with your sentiments, though it's a little late. This looks to me like an irreversible process. The country to the south of us has gone, in a remarkably short period of time, from the world's largest producer and exporter of goods to the world's largest debtor nation. We are already very much like our American cousins… there are some differences, yes, but we tend to buy into much the same standard of living and crave much the same in the way of material goods. Culturally, we are pretty much slave-linked to America, for better or worse.
> 
> What we are living through is the decline of one world power (one which we are very strongly linked to) and the rise of other powers elsewhere in the world. We are going to be obliged to form new alliances and form new markets. The world is getting smaller and more desperate - we're going to have to think harder and try to view the world from a perspective much broader than what we've been accustomed to.
> 
> We will not likely change our buying habits and lifestyle urges until it is too late. Then we won't have a choice. We have our work cut out for us, that's for sure.


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## Overt1 (Aug 31, 2009)

made in china or not, i love my cheap goods. i don't have deep pockets, so if i can pay a tenth of the cost for practically the same item, then so be it. if you like to support north americans, then go for it. i can understand why one would do so, but until north america offers something other countries can also produce at nearly the same cost, i will continue to support the people who work for a couple cents an hour


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

And that's the other side of the coin.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

greco said:


> Bobby..I did this so the OP of the other ("should I buy this Tokai" thread) could get some peace ...and specific answers.
> 
> I put the "play nice" in the first post as a gentle reminder...I am not convinced that it will have any results.
> 
> ...



Bobby...would you prefer to pay by cheque or Canada Post money order?

Cheers

Dave


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## audioassassin77 (Jun 8, 2010)

GuitarsCanada said:


> A drive around Hamilton proves that. There are a lot of vacant building down there now. You can breath better but you cant afford your rent. Along the canal banks where I live we had a huge paper mill industry. At least 6 plants within a 20 mile radius. There are two left now at maybe 1/4 capacity. I remember driving over to Buffalo (Lackawana) where the Bethlehem steel mill used to be. That was one huge facility there. You could drive for miles on that property. There were over 20,000 people employed there at one time. It is totally empty now.


the real shame is that the provincial govt believes that ontario can survive without the manufacturing sector.

sadly the only real way out of this mess would be the closing of our boarders to ALL imports.
yes prices would go through the roof on most consumer goods..however in due course wages would follow.
the thought that we need to buy garbage small appliances and other easily made products from walmart(china) is just plain blind to the seriousness of this situation.
we used to be able to build toasters and coffee makers in this country an im damn sure we could figure out how to again.
this country is capable of producing FAR more than we can consume..yet the craving for cheap/throw-away goods has made us slaves.
no one fixes anything anymore...junk it buy a new one.
the continuation of this will leave our childrens' children as the ones making cheep goods for asian consumers.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Man..talk about coincidence. I just finished a movie called THE JONES, with David Duchovny & Demi Moore Check it out. it's about well..i can't say or it will ruined it..but basicaly about over purchasing and things like that..


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

greco said:


> Bobby...would you prefer to pay by cheque or Canada Post money order?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


i cant pay,i owe all my money to china.take it up with them.

Bobby


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Bobby said:


> *i cant pay,* i owe all my money to china.take *it up with them.*
> 
> Bobby


WHOA ! ........NOW this thread IS about to get REAL ugly !! 

NO cheers (at all)

Dave


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Bobby....I talked to this fellow in China (the taller gentleman)...he wants to talk to you.

Cheers

Dave


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

I changed my mind..i LOVE chinese imports..


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

greco said:


> Bobby....I talked to this fellow in China (the taller gentleman)...he wants to talk to you.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


he looks japanese,and sumo wrestling is a japanese thing,so im going to have to refer you to the case of Dave V. getting his stereotypes straight

Edit: on second glance,he could be polynesian or something. hes so g-d fat its kinda hard to tell when there are folds over folds.

Bobby


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

al3d said:


> I changed my mind..i LOVE chinese imports..


now theres an import i can get behind.

Bobby


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

audioassassin77 said:


> the real shame is that the provincial govt believes that ontario can survive without the manufacturing sector.
> 
> sadly the only real way out of this mess would be the closing of our boarders to ALL imports.
> yes prices would go through the roof on most consumer goods..however in due course wages would follow.
> ...


+1000%.

Wanted to clarify something. In all of the dozens of guitars I've bought, traded or given away in the last 30 years or so, only two have been brand new: a 2000 Larrivée dreadnaught and an '08 Godin LG. The rest were second-hand scores. I don't know that I would be buying Asian-made guitars brand new - but then again, I'd probably not be buying many American guitars brand new either. It just never appealed to me... I don't mind previously used and enjoyed guitars, as long as they're structurally sound. And because there are so many great second-hand guitars out there to be had for cheap, I've been enable to try out a whole wack of guitar styles and types. Spending somewhere between $200 and $400 for a good guitar has opened me up to a lot more possibilities than dropping 12 or 14 bills on some Gibson or Fender. I just don't have the scratch to buy all the great stuff out there.

One more thing. A lot of the greats we admire got their chops by playing only one guitar, for years on end. I sometimes have to remind myself that I am collecting and fooling around with all these things for the sheer enjoyment of it. If I had to, I could go back to one guitar and still get a huge charge out of it.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Maxer said:


> Wanted to clarify something. In all of the dozens of guitars I've bought, traded or given away in the last 30 years or so, only two have been brand new: a 2000 Larrivée dreadnaught and an '08 Godin LG. The rest were second-hand scores. I don't know that I would be buying Asian-made guitars brand new - but then again, I'd probably not be buying many American guitars brand new either. It just never appealed to me... I don't mind previously used and enjoyed guitars, as long as they're structurally sound. And because there are so many great second-hand guitars out there to be had for cheap, I've been enable to try out a whole wack of guitar styles and types. Spending somewhere between $200 and $400 for a good guitar has opened me up to a lot more possibilities than dropping 12 or 14 bills on some Gibson or Fender. I just don't have the scratch to buy all the great stuff out there.


I'm totally with you there Maxer!! I have only ever owned one new guitar, the Yamaha FG-260 12 string my parents got me for my 18th Birthday. Sadly, I pawned that guitar a few years ago because of a pissed-off (now ex) wife. Every other guitar I have owned and now own were bought used (and some more used than others!). I now own guitars from Korea, Taiwan, China, Japan, Sweden and the USA. Each one has its merits...that's why I still have them.

I have eclectic tastes, so I have always tended towards purchasing imported goods, whether its cars, guitars, furniture or electronics. But it isn't always just because it's cheap. I just happen to like Alfa Romeos, Lancias, Bang & Olufson, Hagstrom, Braun, Telefunken, Saab, Triumph, Ural and Jaguar products for example. I don't yet own a Norman, Godin, Larivee or other Canadian guitar, but I will...eventually. I WISH I could 'want' the available North-American products more than I do...or at least enough to pay the usually higher costs for them...but (and using electric guitars is a good example), when I can get a really nice used, hardwood-bodied, custom-painted (Daphne Blue) Chinese-made S-101 tele-copy (it says S-101 on the headstock, not 'Fender'!) that plays great and feels 'right' for less than $200 (tacking on the $30 shipping charge and the $60 to get it 'set' properly and a better set of strings added), well...like most folks, I'm going to go for that. Would I still like a real '58 Telecaster, or a '66 Strat, or a Godin 'Radiator' (I know, I know...but I like them anyway!)? Of course! And I will eventually own that Godin ...and maybe even a 'Dan Smith' Stratocaster and a G & L ASAT ('cuz I'll never be able to afford that '58 Tele or the '66 Strat!). But I'll still keep my 'imported' axes...because they play well, look good and are fun to use when I want to make 'guitar noises'!


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Amen to that post, Alex. I have a Radiator from 1998 - a lemon yellow thing that I am often ambivalent about - yet every time I try to sell or trade it away, I end up keeping it.

I've also owned a couple of Agiles.... again, a Korean import that offers mind-blowing value.

I am probably _still_ a wanton cork-sniffer as far as many are concerned... but I'm a down-scale one!

Another thing I wanted to mention about many Asian and Indonesian-made guitars... I put an emphasis on action/playabilty far more than tone... it's chiefly because I rarely play any of my stuff through actual amps. Instead, I use digital modeling via software. I know that's blasphemous to many and I don't expect people to applaud, but it works for me. I play better with a guitar that has a great feel and a fantastic neck. I just don't care about the pickups and caps because I'm already futzing with the signal once it's in my Mac - applying filters, EQs, reverbs, delays, mic configurations, what have you.

Once in a while I'll actually mic an acoustic, and even more rarely I'll record an electric through an amp. But 98% of the time, this home-recording dude is going to be using an audio-in box and a pile of nifty software. I can get fantastic tone from it if I am careful and use my ears... if I don't then the tone can sound dead and muffled. A lot of it comes down to how you EQ things and where you put guitars in the mix... but that's another story.

All of which goes to show that while we all dig the electric guitar, we don't all do the same things with them - and by extension, we have different requirements for our respective gear.


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## jmaysen (Mar 10, 2008)

well here it goes....

saying made in china forgeries are just as good as the real thing is like saying a inflatable doll is as good as the real thing.....

Maybe.....

if you've never had the real thing......


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

jmaysen said:


> well here it goes....
> 
> saying made in china forgeries are just as good as the real thing is like saying a inflatable doll is as good as the real thing.....
> 
> ...


I don't believe that anyone has ever said (in these forums) that MIC 'forgery' guitars are as good as the guitars they copy. So, what are you talking about?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

jmaysen said:


> well here it goes....
> 
> saying made in china forgeries are just as good as the real thing is like saying a inflatable doll is as good as the real thing.....
> 
> ...


Do you mean inflatable dolls that are Made in China in comparison to other inflatable dolls?

Cheers

Dave


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Actually it has been said (over the last 2 years) that Chinese Fakes have been:


 as good as real,
 better than the originals,
 pretty good considering they are fakes,
not as shoddy as you would expect,
not bad once properly set up,
 should just put a real name on them and stop trying to be something else as they are good enough to simply sell.
 
It has ALSO been said _"insert any form of derogatory comment here"_
_
EDIT: The above is why threads do get locked up on this topic, people pick sides then fling mud at each other. I think fake is fake, regardless if it is good or not, and when it IS good, tells me the "original" has a big problem.
_
But then, China only has a bigger profile at the moment because they are the bigger exporter at the moment. They DO have the dubious good luck to have become the big exporter at the same time our "government*s*" have dropped the "watchful eye" they used to maintain against fakes, frauds, and shoddy or dangerous or contaminated anything coming into the country. However, give it another 10 years, and some other third world nation will be the new China, we will be pretty much bankrupt, and China will be facing the types of economic disasters that Japan is currently facing.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

In this day and age inflatable dolls....made in China or elswhere.....could be better than the real thing. Clean, safe, convineant, don't complain and never say no. But, can they cook. 
And Chinese guitars are better than their beer and whisky. They have yet to learn how to make a good single malt.
later


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Electraglide said:


> And Chinese guitars are better than their beer and whisky. They have yet to learn how to make a good single malt.
> later


Man...you are SO right about THAT! A few years ago in Cambodia, I tried this stuff called 'Mekong Whiskey'...I nearly went blind!! But I had to try at least three bottles of it just to make sure!


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

keeperofthegood said:


> as good as real,
> better than the originals,
> pretty good considering they are fakes,
> not as shoddy as you would expect,
> ...


I'll buy into #3, #4 and #5. The others are just wrong. I had not seen any of those opinions...but then I'm a 'Noob'.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Don't try Polonius whiskey....brings back bad memories. A 2 became a 12 that night. And you like Urals Alex? Chiang Jiang's are comparable.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Electraglide said:


> Don't try Polonius whiskey....brings back bad memories.  A 2 became a 12 that night. And you like Urals Alex? Chiang Jiang's are comparable.


Urals, Chiang Jiangs, as long as they're ugly and unreliable...I'm there!


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

HAHAHA Alex, there is a reason why Dave posted this thread with trepidation. There can be some VERY STRONG feeling people. However, musicians and artists ... we are people of passion so it is only to be expected.

There are a lot of things I get from China, fairly regularly too. Like, you can only buy CANADIAN maple syrup FROM CANADA, each nation has their items that are really "theirs" and the Chinese are no exception to that.

Then there are all those 110% market saturation items I get, simply because no other nation is making them or none of the stores in walking distance is selling other nations items.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

"another 10 years............we will be pretty much bankrupt". In the last 60 years I've heard that a time or two. I'm still here and still living in the best country in the world. At the moment are Chinese imports better than the originals? Some are some aren't. And the same arguments that are being made about Chinese imports have been made about products made in Taiwan, Japan, Mexico, England, and the States. And in the next 10 or so years will be made about other countries. 
As far as our gov't goes,well, I think they keep as much a watchfull eye as demanded by the voting public. As far as the"originals" go, well, their prices havn't dropped and they seem to sell everything they produce. 
Me personally, will I ever buy a Gibson or a Fender? I might if it's old enough and strikes my fancy at the time. Would I buy Chinese? Maybe, for the same reason. A Canadian guitar? Wasn't Fury a guitar out of Sask? Might buy one of those if I could find one. I'm lucky, I can afford my "hobby" and I play for my own enjoyment. And, I've paid my dues.
later


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

keeperofthegood said:


> There are a lot of things I get from China, fairly regularly too. Like, you can only buy CANADIAN maple syrup FROM CANADA, each nation has their items that are really "theirs" and the Chinese are no exception to that.


i SHIT YOU NOT..when i went to Vancouver a few years back..i was with friends in a tourist store looking to get a souvenir for the wife, and guess what...Maple Sirop made in nice cute bottles...and guess what..MADE IN CHINA dude..and i'm not ****ing kidding.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

al3d said:


> i SHIT YOU NOT..when i went to Vancouver a few years back..i was with friends in a tourist store looking to get a souvenir for the wife, and guess what...Maple Sirop made in nice cute bottles...and guess what..MADE IN CHINA dude..and i'm not ****ing kidding.



OMFG :O That is just SICK!

I'd never buy Canadian Maple Syrup from any other country. It wouldn't be Canadian!


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

keeperofthegood said:


> OMFG :O That is just SICK!
> 
> I'd never buy Canadian Maple Syrup from any other country. It wouldn't be Canadian!


We were 4 guys from Quebec, homeland of Maple Sirup..and we were laughing our ass off, looking at this little asian man trying to sell use that stuff, he even gave us a tast...tasted NOTHING like the real thing, more like the crap we find at truck Stops in the US when going on vacation..LOL..


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Alex Csank said:


> I don't believe that anyone has ever said (in these forums) that MIC 'forgery' guitars are as good as the guitars they copy. So, what are you talking about?


Actually, like you always like to say..you are incorrect and wrong, ( i'm teasing here man...) many have proclaimed that the Counterfeit stuff was and is as good as a 3000$ LP or Strat or Tele.


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## audioassassin77 (Jun 8, 2010)

al3d said:


> i SHIT YOU NOT..when i went to Vancouver a few years back..i was with friends in a tourist store looking to get a souvenir for the wife, and guess what...Maple Sirop made in nice cute bottles...and guess what..MADE IN CHINA dude..and i'm not ****ing kidding.


not really that surprising as 2/3 of the worlds maple species grow in china....where else would they get the pretty flamed(paper thin veener) tops for all them lp copies..lol


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

audioassassin77 said:


> not really that surprising as 2/3 of the worlds maple species grow in china....where else would they get the pretty flamed(paper thin veener) tops for all them lp copies..lol


they might have maple..but do they have NORTHERN SUGAR MAPLE...ah ah...not the same thing.. even if they do, god damn they don't know how to make it..LOL


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

The Chinese made stuff tends to be more expensive than Indonesian Made or Indian made in my experience. It seems like oriental production for low cost goods has shifted from Japan to Korea to China to Indonesia and India.


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## LowWatt (Jun 27, 2007)

keeperofthegood said:


> OMFG :O That is just SICK!
> 
> I'd never buy Canadian Maple Syrup from any other country. It wouldn't be Canadian!


That's why I don't get buying MIC flags, which 99% of them seem to be. "Honour your country by sending your money outside of it."


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

So, we have gone away from the realm of the 'Chinese crafted guitar' question and now we seem to be talking about just about anything made in other countries. Oddly, sometimes the stuff which is the copy eventually becomes better than the original. A few good examples of this are the car (Japan, Germany & now Korea), the motorcycle (Japan), fine wines (Napa Valley & other places world-wide), pizza (NYC, Chicago, California), consumer electronics (Japan and now other Asian nations), pasta (Italy adopted pasta from China), etc. (the list is very long). Without going into too many details about each of these, it's pretty clear that the Japanese (for example), who began by building cars which were terrible copies of British and American car designs from the late '30s and early '40s by necessity after the end of the Second World War, were quickly (within 25 years) able to produce high-quality products which were in many ways better than the competition.

So, watch out! Those Chinese may eventually be able to produce better-tasting maple syrup than the stuff that comes from "les Cantons de l'est"! It will be from the "Far-Eastern Cantons" instead!!!

OH, and al3d: please forgive me. I am a 'Noob' here. I truly did not think that anyone had ever tried to say that the 'Forgery' guitars (different than a copy...the copy doesn't try and pass itself off as the real thing) from China were better than an actual Les Paul, Stratocaster, Telecaster, SG, ES-335 or whatever else they are 'forging' these days. That a cheap forgery could be as good as, or better than an original is truly hard to believe. On the other hand, ever since the end of the USSR and the toppling of the Berlin Wall, I am much more ready to accept the 'incredible'.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

*Related to the discussion*

Sometime this year, we taxpayers will receive an ' HST Compensation'' 
> payment.
> 
> This is indeed a very exciting program, and I'll explain it by using a Q & A 
> format:
> 
> Q. What is an 'HST Compensation' payment ?
> 
> A. It is money that the provincial government will send to taxpayers.
> 
> Q.. Where will the government get this money ?
> 
> A. From taxpayers.
> 
> Q. So the government is giving me back my own money ?
> 
> A. Only a smidgen of it.
> 
> Q. What is the purpose of this payment ?
> 
> A. The plan is for you to use the money to purchase a high-definition TV 
> set, thus stimulating the economy.
> 
> Q. But isn't that stimulating the economy of China ?
> 
> A. Shut up.
> 
> Below is some helpful advice on how to best help the economy by spending 
> your compensation cheque wisely:
> 
> * If you spend the stimulus money at Wal-Mart, the money will go to China or 
> Sri Lanka ...
> 
> * If you spend it on gasoline, your money will go to the Arabs.
> 
> * If you purchase a computer, it will go to India , Taiwan or China .
> 
> * If you purchase fruit and vegetables, it will go to Mexico , Honduras and 
> Guatemala ..
> 
> * If you buy an efficient car, it will go to Japan or Korea .
> 
> * If you purchase useless stuff, it will go to Taiwan .
> 
> * If you pay your credit cards off, or buy stock, it will go
> to management bonuses and they will hide it offshore.
> 
> Instead, keep the money in Canada by:
> 
> 1) Spending it at yard sales, or
> 
> 2) Going to hockey games, or
> 
> 3) Spending it on prostitutes, or
> 
> 4) Beer or
> 
> 5) Tattoos.
> 
> (These are the only Canadian businesses still operating in Canada. )
> 
> Conclusion:
> 
> Go to a hockey game with a tattooed prostitute that you met at a yard sale 
> and drink beer all day !
> 
> No need to thank me, I'm just glad I could be of help.


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## audioassassin77 (Jun 8, 2010)

rollingdam said:


> >
> > Go to a hockey game with a tattooed prostitute that you met at a yard sale
> > and drink beer all day !
> >
> > No need to thank me, I'm just glad I could be of help.


LMFAO! now thats the way to STIMULATE....the economy or divorce courts.
cheers


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

I am in St. Louis at the moment and I stopped in at 'Go Music' to have a look around. The have a 'LP Forgery' guitar! I had a look at it. It really doesn't look too bad...and from about four feet and further away, it looks real. Up close, it looks like the binding was painted on. It was a very good job, but 'real binding' has a slight detectable raised ridge...this didn't. It was too perfect. The gold on the hardware was cheap and is beginning to wear off just from sunlight and the 'air'. The Gibson on the headstock just isn't as nice as a real one. Now, about feel: It seemed just a little too heavy, but I didn't have a scale with me. The fretboard (and neck-shape) just isn't right...but I couldn't really tell you why or how. Otherwise, it felt pretty much like the real thing. I didn't plug it in, but I wouldn't buy it anyway...so the LAST thing I wanted to do was enjoy playing that fake! Anyway, at $300...it was too expensive for a fake. Now, if it was $150...well, then maybe. Anyway, I'd much rather have a Tokai, Burny, Univox, Greco or other good version of a LP copy...one where they identify themselves on the headstock!


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

you know, 20 or so years ago, i lost my job to 2 guys from mexico.
i dont recall all the particulars, but there was a program whereby my boss provided housing for the workers (a trailer home), paid for thier airfare twice a year (they went home for 3 months in the winter), and paid them $2 an hour.
in return, the government subsidized the wages by $4 or so an hour, handled health care, immigration stuff etc, as well as driver training so they could get drivers licences to drive the company truck.
so with all the costs figured in, my boss got 2 guys for less than it cost him to pay me- and i think i made $8 an hour then.
i spent 3 months training them, then got laid off for the winter, permanently.
i realized then that it doesnt matter where we spend our money, were going to get screwed over anyway at some point.
i buy what i need, and dont like throwing money around- really cant afford to anyway.
so ive got a few chinese guitars, a couple amps and stuff.
doesnt trouble me a bit who knows it, not something to be ashamed about.
however, if i owned a chinese knock off with a fake fender or gibson logo or something on it, i would be ashamed. thats just pathetic. 
its also wrong, and weak and silly,
but mostly its pathetic.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

gotta love the way they pack these fake strats for shipping

Fender Stratocaster standard (fake/copy) new Orleans, Ottawa


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

greco said:


> Do you mean inflatable dolls that are Made in China in comparison to other inflatable dolls?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


indonesian inflatable dolls are the best.i thought that was common knowledge. but you really have to be careful if your too enthusiastic,a defect can really cause injury.

this one time,i ......


ahh,nevermind.

Bobby


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Bobby said:


> this one time,i ......*ahh, nevermind.* Bobby


Such a "deflating" ending !

Cheers

Dave


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

greco said:


> Such a "deflating" ending !
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


Well it is one way to punctuate the conversation ...


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

keeperofthegood said:


> Well it is one way to punctuate the conversation ...


It seems like this thread might have a 'punny' ending.

Cheers

Dave


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

And where do we draw the line in our support of domestic jobs?

Does this extend to not buying those $5.00 towells from Walmart, and paying instead for the $20. ones made in Canada? Or is it just guitars.

Just curious. That's not intended to start an argument. It's an interesting problem.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Milkman said:


> And where do we draw the line in our support of domestic jobs?
> 
> Does this extend to not buying those $5.00 towells from Walmart, and paying instead for the $20. ones made in Canada? Or is it just guitars.
> 
> Just curious. That's not intended to start an argument. It's an interesting problem.



No actually it is a very good question, it does illustrate the catch-22 we are in.

Our income for a single person to live and not be hand-to-mouth on the edge of poverty or bankruptcy has to be making a minimum of 16 dollars an hour full time
Our min wage falls far short of that at around 10 dollars an hour.
That is 16 per hour per person in a household, 2 kids and a spouse that becomes 64 dollars an hour
This value is well established as a minimum value for a reasonable life here in Canada
Take myself, we are a 1 income family of 4 with an income of about 18 dollars an hour
We do not have any significant purchasing power or ability, yes, when the kids get sick they simply have to wait till payday to get meds and the meds do mean less food.
But that then leads to this downward cycle
If we don't purchase the Canadian made whatsit then the Canadian company goes under
If the Canadian company goes under, the 5-n-Dime has to let people go
Now you have a rise in unemployed people who either are on limited savings or on government assistance
These people, when they need a new whatsit now have little choice, they cannot afford to buy the Canadian made whatsit for 20 and have to by offshore for 5
This of course leads to another whatsit maker going under, more 5-n-Dimes not keeping staff and yet more people on assistance or savings that again
cannot afford a whatsit...

There have also been recent studies on us Canadians that have shown that something like 80% of us are now living just as my family is.


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

lets all learn mandarin,swear allegiance to the PRC,and just get this over with allready.

Bobby


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Back in the late 80s A British SF writer, David Wingrove, did a series of books about a world in the near future utterly dominated by the Chinese. _Chung Kuo_ was the series - by the time he had finished the series it was an 8 volume beast of a tale and the last was published in 1997. I only got through the first four before I tired of the endless serialization of his story-telling. Great stuff though. Some of it was pretty prescient stuff - he saw the impressive and unstoppable rise of China coming from a long way off. The world he created was elaborate and complex - the characters were three dimensional and their motives were mixed and ambiguous. I got the sense he both admired the Chinese and feared their penchant for putting the collective ahead of the individual. It's a completely different culture... small wonder it clashes with views in the West.

But like I said before, China's citizens themselves are changing. I think their blooming middle-class and quest for material wealth has the potential to derail the traditional respect and norms of good government helmed by stern father figures who prefer to keep the people firmly leashed.

What does all this have to do with guitars? Nothing in one way, and plenty in another. Keep your American and Canadian-made guitars - one day they may become something of a rarity. Much depends on how badly we want to end our addiction to the cheap goods available in the Walmarts, Costcos and many other big box retailers.


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## starjag (Jan 30, 2008)

Maxer said:


> But like I said before, China's citizens themselves are changing. I think their blooming middle-class and quest for material wealth has the potential to derail the traditional respect and norms of good government helmed by stern father figures who prefer to keep the people firmly leashed.
> 
> What does all this have to do with guitars? Nothing in one way, and plenty in another. Keep your American and Canadian-made guitars - one day they may become something of a rarity. Much depends on how badly we want to end our addiction to the cheap goods available in the Walmarts, Costcos and many other big box retailers.


You need to add their love for human rights.

Fortunately this is not a sustainable model. Increasing wages in China and increasing oil prices indicate that eventually local production will be more competitive. Unless we figure a way to move massive amounts of product from Asia without using oil.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

No, I haven't forgotten human rights. They tend to be subsumed by the rights of the greater family, the collective of which one is a member. It's no coincidence that the Chinese leadership is annoyed by Western allegations of China's tyrannical disrespect for human rights... they just don't care about individual human rights... it's not part of their culture. Nor do most of us get them, really. Bit of a divide, to say the least.

Agreed though that steeply rising fuel costs will dramatically change the profile of import/exports in nations all across the world. Right now it's cost-effective for inexpensive Asian-made goods to flood Western markets. That won't last. Still, China is rising. The sleeping giant is awake.


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

China has a real problem with human rights,what with the past decade,their recent massive bombing campaigns and invasions in several countries that have left,by most conservative estimates,500,000 dead,millions injured and displaced, and just a whole chunk of humanity horrified,angered and humiliated.they just dont get human rights like we do in the west.

oh,wait a second.....

Bobby


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

No country on the face of this earth is immune to hypocritical stances. That much you can take to the bank.


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## starjag (Jan 30, 2008)

Maxer said:


> No, I haven't forgotten human rights. They tend to be subsumed by the rights of the greater family, the collective of which one is a member.


I presume that you are not part of the collective if you are dead.



Maxer said:


> It's no coincidence that the Chinese leadership is annoyed by Western allegations of China's tyrannical disrespect for human rights... they just don't care about individual human rights... it's not part of their culture. Nor do most of us get them, really. Bit of a divide, to say the least.


Indeed, individuals can be wrong but entire cultures cannot. The same can be said for arranged marriages, women rights, etc. in different cultures. Quite fascinating!


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

Maxer said:


> No country on the face of this earth is immune to hypocritical stances. That much you can take to the bank.


i would agree with that. im just saying its funny to talk about China treating its citizens badly,while we in the west are invading other countries,killing and displacing people. but we treat our own citizens better so we are somehow more civilised.

i know what your saying about the more "collective" mentality in China. and obviously what the west is doing wrong doesnt somehow erase what they are doing wrong. i just like to point it out. we tend to think of ourselves as the evolved,enlightened ones,and a country like China as being backwards in many respects. (i am not saying you hold that view or said that,just that it is often the way Cuba,China,Russia etc are presented,in the press and so forth) .

if aliens were to land here tommorow with some kind of a new unbiased view of the world,who do you think they would see as being the barbarians,the people with no respect for human life here?

im not saying China and Russia are examples of a beautiful human utopia,by any stretch,but the comparison isnt even close,and it does not favour the west. 

Bobby


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

I think the alleged aliens, if they had been checking out the earth for a long time, would hold the view that the history of barbaric acts is widespread and not contained in any one given continent, nor limited to one specific skin colour, religion or language; in that light, the West of today is really no worse than any other region or period of history. Ancient China had its atrocities and barbaric periods. The Dark Ages of Europe were no picnic either. It's not as if the authorities back in the day respected due process, nor refrained from diabolical torture. We are just very skilled at rationalizing our own histories. Lots of whitewash...

Empire is empire - and colonization entails good things and despicable things. The older I get, the more I believe that the folly of mankind is our very capacity for forgetting that we are very much capable of massive folly.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Resistance is futile! You will be assimilated!


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

Maxer said:


> I think the alleged aliens, if they had been checking out the earth for a long time, would hold the view that the history of barbaric acts is widespread and not contained in any one given continent, nor limited to one specific skin colour, religion or language; in that light, the West of today is really no worse than any other region or period of history. Ancient China had its atrocities and barbaric periods. The Dark Ages of Europe were no picnic either. It's not as if the authorities back in the day respected due process, nor refrained from diabolical torture. We are just very skilled at rationalizing our own histories. Lots of whitewash...
> 
> Empire is empire - and colonization entails good things and despicable things. The older I get, the more I believe that the folly of mankind is our very capacity for forgetting that we are very much capable of massive folly.


i agree with most of that,basically. 

im just saying that today,it would look worse for the west.saying its no worse then other parts of the world at other times is well.......not setting the bar very high,is it? if China were to launch ballistic missiles into Tibet to destroy an uprising,then responded by saying that the U.S. had carried out similar actions,well we wouldnt see that as being reasonable,or rightgeous,would we?

im just saying that we should see the world for what it is,with the least biased view possible.

with all due respect " there has been violence in the past" just doesnt cut it.we shouldnt be comparing ourselves to the Ottoman empire or Mao's China or whoever and saying "well,see,they werent very nice either". one would hope mankind would look to improve. your last statement is a very smart one,but thats where the whole point lies,to me. we have to realise our own folly,and follies of the past,in order to improve things. if we simply accept that"empire is empire" and that we are just along for the ride well.......thats easier to say in Canada nowadays.not so easy to say in Afghanistan,Iraq,Pakistan,Somalia,Chechnya,etc etc..

Bobby


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

I disagree. My own view is that you are being idealistic... verging on naive. Whereas you might counter that I'm just a cynic or a crusty pessimist. I don't know. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle. For me, history is all about offering lessons that are continually being ignored in our present times... I don't see it suddenly, magically changing. People are people.

My parents lived through different times. I know of people within my own family, people of Eastern European stock, who witnessed terrible things committed to their own friends and family, not so very long ago. Terrible, unspeakable things which still no make sense. People who have lived in times of war, people who've been marked very personally by atrocities of war, tend to believe that what we lightly call 'civilization' is in fact a very thin veneer. There's nothing in our own country which magically protects us from tyranny or bloody tribalism, much as we might like to believe otherwise. I am grateful to be living in relatively peaceful times in a relatively peaceful part of the world, but I am under no illusion that the madness of fascism or bloody pogroms couldn't be visited on us right here, in Canada. Truth is stranger than fiction, and in my view, just because we can't imagine a bloody world doesn't mean it can't descend on us and indelibly mark us.

Anyway - _yikes!_ - maybe now we're really getting far from the original spirit of the thread, so I'll say no more for tonight. Cheers.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

You...a pessimist.....Nhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.....LOL



Maxer said:


> I disagree. My own view is that you are being idealistic... verging on naive. Whereas you might counter that I'm just a cynic or a crusty pessimist. I don't know. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle. For me, history is all about offering lessons that are continually being ignored in our present times... I don't see it suddenly, magically changing. People are people.
> 
> My parents lived through different times. I know of people within my own family, people of Eastern European stock, who witnessed terrible things committed to their own friends and family, not so very long ago. Terrible, unspeakable things which still no make sense. People who have lived in times of war, people who've been marked very personally by atrocities of war, tend to believe that what we lightly call 'civilization' is in fact a very thin veneer. There's nothing in our own country which magically protects us from tyranny or bloody tribalism, much as we might like to believe otherwise. I am grateful to be living in relatively peaceful times in a relatively peaceful part of the world, but I am under no illusion that the madness of fascism or bloody pogroms couldn't be visited on us right here, in Canada. Truth is stranger than fiction, and in my view, just because we can't imagine a bloody world doesn't mean it can't descend on us and indelibly mark us.
> 
> Anyway - _yikes!_ - maybe now we're really getting far from the original spirit of the thread, so I'll say no more for tonight. Cheers.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

I think I just want to go to Africa and go tribal. Loin cloth and hunting spear. This thread has made life too complicated.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Africa? Naw, just ignore the thread. Life will return to normal in a jiffy. Or what passes for normal, which is about as good as it gets.

Now I'm _really_ sayin' goodnight.


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

Maxer said:


> I disagree. My own view is that you are being idealistic... verging on naive. Whereas you might counter that I'm just a cynic or a crusty pessimist. I don't know. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle. For me, history is all about offering lessons that are continually being ignored in our present times... I don't see it suddenly, magically changing. People are people.
> 
> My parents lived through different times. I know of people within my own family, people of Eastern European stock, who witnessed terrible things committed to their own friends and family, not so very long ago. Terrible, unspeakable things which still no make sense. People who have lived in times of war, people who've been marked very personally by atrocities of war, tend to believe that what we lightly call 'civilization' is in fact a very thin veneer. There's nothing in our own country which magically protects us from tyranny or bloody tribalism, much as we might like to believe otherwise. I am grateful to be living in relatively peaceful times in a relatively peaceful part of the world, but I am under no illusion that the madness of fascism or bloody pogroms couldn't be visited on us right here, in Canada. Truth is stranger than fiction, and in my view, just because we can't imagine a bloody world doesn't mean it can't descend on us and indelibly mark us.
> 
> Anyway - _yikes!_ - maybe now we're really getting far from the original spirit of the thread, so I'll say no more for tonight. Cheers.


im not disagreeing with you in the bulk of what you are saying though.im saying we should be aware of it,and aim for something better. if we dont get there,well we dont.

memebers of my family were actually on both ends of the persecution thing,at different times. i think if you went back far enough you could say that for anyone though.

i dont believe its naive at all though to think that avoiding these things,or at least improving on them are possible. the population supports the governement and hence,the millitary. we are taught to believe that everything we have we owe to our army but thats just a way of controlling people. 

i mean if you and i were in germany in the thirties when the groundwork for a lot of atrocities were being laid,assomewhat intelligent people,we could have realised this was madness and that scapegoating certain peoples for exile or outright extinction was wrong. could we have turned the tide of history? well no,2 relatively humane guys would not have stopped the blitzkrieg.thats ridiculous of course. but a better educated,better informed,less fear(from its own govt) filled population could,and would have. you cant have an empire going around making inhumane and in germany's case in ww2 ultimately,suicidal decisions without the groundwork of ignorance and fear being laid.

when people know more and are aware of whats really happening,they tend to stop believing in bogeymen and hold their government accountable. i mean look at the whole pacifist movement in india in the late 40's. the population at some point saw what was being done in their name,found it atrocious and just wouldnt stand for it anymore.people in general tend to have a moral standard. no one just thinks its a great idea to go around killing people for the sake of killing them. as i said,a groundwork of fear has to be laid for that.there has to be an "other" who is coming for you,who is threatening your own existence.that was true in germany in 33 onward,in rwanda in the 90's,im sure it was true during the crusades......no people would work to pay for and support an army that is going around commiting atrocities unless they are afraid,or ignorant,or both.

can we go back in time and stop genocidal actions and all kinds of horrid events,no. but we can learn from them.the more we(i mean the population in general here) are aware of whats really happening,the less likely we are to support decisions that are inhumane. ignorance and fear are a good recipe for a population that will support death and destruction. but knowledge,courage and just an intrinsic compassion are a good recipe for a population which will force its government to make better decisions. not necessarily perfect,no. but better.

this has strayed quite a ways from the original point that Dave started the thread for  given my wager with him on the first page,id better stop talking before i owe him a million dollars,lol

Bobby


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## Bobby (May 27, 2010)

keeperofthegood said:


> I think I just want to go to Africa and go tribal. Loin cloth and hunting spear. This thread has made life too complicated.


KOTG,i promise i will stop disscussing all of this entirely,immediately, if you dont make me picture you in a loin cloth again 

Bobby


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Maxer said:


> I disagree. My own view is that you are being idealistic... verging on naive. Whereas you might counter that I'm just a cynic or a crusty pessimist. I don't know. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle. For me, history is all about offering lessons that are continually being ignored in our present times... I don't see it suddenly, magically changing. People are people.
> 
> My parents lived through different times. I know of people within my own family, people of Eastern European stock, who witnessed terrible things committed to their own friends and family, not so very long ago. Terrible, unspeakable things which still no make sense. People who have lived in times of war, people who've been marked very personally by atrocities of war, tend to believe that what we lightly call 'civilization' is in fact a very thin veneer. There's nothing in our own country which magically protects us from tyranny or bloody tribalism, much as we might like to believe otherwise. I am grateful to be living in relatively peaceful times in a relatively peaceful part of the world, but I am under no illusion that the madness of fascism or bloody pogroms couldn't be visited on us right here, in Canada. Truth is stranger than fiction, and in my view, just because we can't imagine a bloody world doesn't mean it can't descend on us and indelibly mark us.
> 
> Anyway - _yikes!_ - maybe now we're really getting far from the original spirit of the thread, so I'll say no more for tonight. Cheers.


My Dad was from Hungary and witnessed that stuff too..as did I while serving with the U.N. in Cambodia. There IS evil in this world. Consider yourselves all very lucky to be living in Canada...a vast, peaceful and relatively permissive and wealthy nation which always earns great regard as a 'recommended place to live' by the United Nations and others.

But Maxer, you are WAY off when you state: "I am under no illusion that the madness of fascism or bloody pogroms couldn't be visited on us right here, in Canada." Frankly, having travelled the world and lived in lots of places, I can assure you that it would take an AWFUL lot of very heavy drugs to get Canada to go that far away from what it is now! I spent 20 years of my life trying to make sure that Canada and Canadians remained safe, spoiled and free to say whatever the fudge they wanted to say. As I used to tell some who didn't even like the idea of Canada having a military:

1. Every country has a military...their own, or someone else's.
2. I will fight to my death to protect your right to disagree with me!

China (and soon India too) is taking over, whether you like it or not...not with an army, not with a political party, not even with propaganda...they are taking over with population and by flooding our markets with their wares. But that's OK. We (the Evil Western Empire) took them all over first with Coca-Cola, Hamburgers, Television, Rock 'n Roll, Chevrolet and Harley-Davidson. We're only getting our just desserts.

Play safe kids!


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

HAhahahahaha

You know, one of my fav movies, The Gods Must Be Crazy. I cannot think of a truer exploration of the human condition than that movie. Though I do like the landscape of Tanzania better LOL somewhere in the north, between Kilimanjaro, and the shores of Tanganyika.

I dunno. When I was young, I busted my nuts to move to Toronto, it left me burnt out in 2 years. I ended up for nearly 6 years in Thunder Bay, and for the exact opposite reasons from Toronto it left me burnt out too. Now, I live in Burlington which is somewhere between for city size and civilization, and here too I feel burnt out. Maybe it is age, but the more I gain it the more I want a tree a sunset an iced tea and silence.

The world changes, empires come and go. Nothing is as big now as Persia was in the past, and there is likely yet to come world empire topping anything anyone can imagine. Who will hold those reigns of power will be the decedents of the 1% of the people who hold 99% of the worlds wealth and power. The same families have held that power for generations, and other than a surreptitious slaughtering, nations may change but those families will not, they will simply move to where the next power wave is. They had done it many times already; they left Egypt for Greece, Greece for Rome, Rome for the Americas, and next the Americas for the Asias.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Ah, the Canadian Utopia. A tree, a sunset, a coffee and silence. And when the silence gets too much, a guitar and a Harley. It's nice.....boring at times but nice.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Alex Csank said:


> But Maxer, you are WAY off when you state: "I am under no illusion that the madness of fascism or bloody pogroms couldn't be visited on us right here, in Canada." Frankly, having travelled the world and lived in lots of places, I can assure you that it would take an AWFUL lot of very heavy drugs to get Canada to go that far away from what it is now! I spent 20 years of my life trying to make sure that Canada and Canadians remained safe, spoiled and free to say whatever the fudge they wanted to say. As I used to tell some who didn't even like the idea of Canada having a military:
> 
> 1. Every country has a military...their own, or someone else's.
> 2. I will fight to my death to protect your right to disagree with me!


Here's the thing. I am a big believer in that old adage of truth being stranger than fiction. Canada is indeed a very special and blessed place, no question. And it's great that we can have a conversation like this without bullets flying over our heads and without fear of our neighbours coming after ourselves and our children with machetes simply because we believe in a different religion or hail from another tribe. And if I wasn't working right now, bet your ass I'd rather be on a dock with a beer and a guitar and the whole day stretching out in front of me. Yeah, that'd be sweet.

And for the record, I have no problem with Canada having a military. I sometimes wonder if we wouldn't be better off with a compulsory military service, similar to what Isreal or Switzerland employs. I certainly believe it builds character.

But back to truth being stranger than fiction. I remember being ten in Ottawa, when the FLQ crisis struck and the army was called in. I remember jeeps, tanks and half-tracks and soldiers with automatic weapons, right downtown, and in Rockcliffe Park (where most of the pols and diplomats live). I don't think anyone back then would have predicted such a thing, yet it happened. The War Measures Act, an act still very much in place, enabled the mass arrests of thousands without so much as a shred of an explanation. It was an astonishing display of state power. The vast majority of those arrested were subsequently never charged and were eventually released, albeit weeks, even months later. But at the height of the crisis there was an air of dread expectation that anything could happen. This was in times of peace, yet it happened. It was a brilliant late summer day nine years ago, yet two jets still flew into the twin towers and dropped them. Twenty years before, when I briefly lived in NYC, I stood at the top of one of those towers, taking in the breathtaking view. Who would have predicted they would meet that particular fate? Weird stuff happens. It's happened before and you can bet it'll happen again.

Yeah, Canada is peaceful and will likely stay that way for a long time to come. Here's one of the few spoiler scenarios I can think of that would upset the apple cart. The arrival of a superbug, something on the scale of the Black Plague which ravaged Europe and killed so many people in the space of a few years, would change everything. Our cities are particularly at risk - by virtue of their sheer density, they enable very fast transmission. Our modern day, with rapid air travel, would also work against the globe. A biological calamity like that would very quickly challenge the ability of the even the sternest authorities to keep a tight lid on panic and citizen unrest. Think of runs on the banks, on grocery stores, on perishable foods, on gas - on ammunition.

In the countryside it's better, less insane, less desperate. You'd likely have a little more time to prepare. But even then, you have to be very choosy regarding who you share your necessities with - and all those whom you deny become your enemies, just as they become yours.

I know it sounds all terribly biblical and depressing - like The Road, but real - but I wouldn't bet on our own complacency. I expect it would bring about some very nasty and brutish behaviour. Not unlike a world war, where the smoke and confusion enables - hell, encourages - an 'anything goes' kind of behaviour.

Another scenario would be the mass arrival of displaced peoples from other parts of the world fleeing floods, famines, and wars. Seems we are probably going to be facing new challenges from coastal areas flooding out, not to mention an approaching shortage of fresh water. In the future people around the globe will likely going to be fighting over access to fresh water. Every large scale war or sudden natural disaster (especially near highly populated cities) entails the massive migration of refugees, people whose very sudden arrival puts an immense logistical and cultural strain on the host people whose territory is being overrun. People tend not to like such magnitudes of change, especially when it's hurtling towards you like a runaway semi.

Sure, I read too many doomsday scenarios, too many post-apocalyptic scenarios. I find 'em fascinating.

Gotta go. Cheers - and I mean that in the best possible sense!


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Quick! Somebody get Maxer some 'happy pills'! That's what I like about you Dude...you have such a sunny disposition.

So, what about the scenario where aliens invade us, or a huge meteorite hits the Earth, or a Tsunami takes out the entire East (or West) Coast, or what if the Earth suddenly switches its orbital reference and 'topples'? 

Sure there are always terrifying which could materialize and change EVERYTHING. And I am a firm believer in the "Hope for the best, but prepare for the worst" philosophy. However, I do not walk around with a concealed handgun or avoid going out at night, etc...just because something MIGHT happen. It is possible...but certainly not probable.

Instead, I rely on my long life experience, which has taught me that things will probably be OK. So I do my best to relax, smell the flowers, enjoy the colours of the sky, music, art, people who are fun to be with, fun things to do, etc. We're only here for a short time, and I'd like to make the best of whatever time I have left.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Alex Csank said:


> Quick! Somebody get Maxer some 'happy pills'! That's what I like about you Dude...you have such a sunny disposition.
> 
> So, what about the scenario where aliens invade us, or a huge meteorite hits the Earth, or a Tsunami takes out the entire East (or West) Coast, or what if the Earth suddenly switches its orbital reference and 'topples'?
> 
> ...


Alex, I guess we'd have to meet over a beer for you to figure out that I'm nowhere dear as dark or gloomy as you think. I like a good beer and a good laugh, too. I'm so normal it's abnormal. I don't have any guns and ammo stored away, either… nor a survival encampment with a cache of tinned food and barrels of water. I just like to shoot the breeze, read a good book, toss back a good beer… and play guitar.

As for the aliens, I'm not privy to what they're planning… the [email protected] And a meteorite striking us? Can't worry about what the heavens may or may not be planning for our local neck of the woods. But water shortages? Famine? Biological contagion? Ahhh, that stuff is far more likely to visit this ball we call home. But that's OK if you think I'm nuts, or some kind of sourpuss. I can deal. Ciao fer now.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

keeperofthegood said:


> OMFG :O That is just SICK!
> 
> I'd never buy Canadian Maple Syrup from any other country. It wouldn't be Canadian!


Go to any souveneir shop in the Falls and see where all those little plastic mounties, canoes, and stuffed beavers hail from.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

allthumbs56 said:


> Go to any souveneir shop in the Falls and see where all those little plastic mounties, canoes, and stuffed beavers hail from.



I spent 14 years of my life in Niagara Falls, about 10 years too many for my liking. I left the Niagara Region, with no intention of ever returning. Bad JuJu all the way around there.

>_> I have said juju so much, I have SUCH a craving to watch George of the Jungle again >_>


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

On the general topic of things made in China....

1) A great many of us here got our start on instruments made somewhere in East or Southeast Asia.

2) A great many of us here continue to use musical devices that, perhaps while finally assembled somewhere outside of Asia, depend heavily on components manufactured in Asia. Those could be resistors, or wave-soldered motherboards, or chips, or tubes.

3) You can teach pretty much anybody to make anything "properly". I never thought that anyone outside of Montreal cold make "real" bagels, but by gum, people learned how, and they're able to do it quite well.

4) The chief challenge underlying goods made in China is that often the squadrons of people who make them have very little connection to the end-product, and that affects quality...at least until they learn more about the product from the consumer perspective. Several years back, my long-time good buddy RG Keen, wrote me from China, where he was overseeing the production of a line of tube amps he designed for Visual Sound that were ultimately cancelled. The assembly of electronic components posed no problem whatsoever. Where he DID run into difficulty was in getting people to a) make decent cabs, and b) set up the amp properly. These were not pony-tailed "dudes" working for MESA, plugging into a Dual Rectifier, hitting a power chord, muttering "WHOA!!" and tweaking the bias to perfection. These were people who could not simply imagine what the end user was looking for, and had to be tutored in tone.

So, the same way South Asian bakers in Ottawa can be taught the difference between a decent and a sham bagel, and learn to produce decent bagels with reliability, Chinese workers can be taught about the final product and learn to make it. BTW, I'm pretty confident that when the legendary Abigail Ybarra started winding pickups for Leo, she didn't know much more about great guitar tone than your average Behringer factory worker. But she learned.


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## Guitar-n00b (Jul 17, 2010)

Yeah, I see your point, I myself have lived in post-Soviet crumble in Moscow during the 90's, then I moved to Niece in France for about 5 months, after that I moved to Ottawa in the countryside of Gloucester, the sounds of distant lawn mowers, and the sound of the forest swishing, also the good thing is you can rock out and no-one will come and complain.
But about all this feeling of hostility in your own town, I've never felt scared in my own town, It just seems like nothing could ever happen to your beloved home and garden, I was born in Russia, in 89', and I'm so sick of all this Nuclear war threats that they show in movies, after cold war that's all BS nowadays...


Maxer said:


> Here's the thing. I am a big believer in that old adage of truth being stranger than fiction. Canada is indeed a very special and blessed place, no question. And it's great that we can have a conversation like this without bullets flying over our heads and without fear of our neighbours coming after ourselves and our children with machetes simply because we believe in a different religion or hail from another tribe. And if I wasn't working right now, bet your ass I'd rather be on a dock with a beer and a guitar and the whole day stretching out in front of me. Yeah, that'd be sweet.
> 
> And for the record, I have no problem with Canada having a military. I sometimes wonder if we wouldn't be better off with a compulsory military service, similar to what Isreal or Switzerland employs. I certainly believe it builds character.
> 
> ...


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Like I said, I like to speculate. Which involves not so much prediction as guesswork… sometimes educated, sometimes wild-ass.

Gloucester, eh? I have family in the Ottawa Valley - two of my brothers who have passed - my older brother lived in Vanier and died years ago now, and one of my younger brothers, who died very suddenly last November, lived in Richmond and then Carleton Place… my mom's still kicking, she lives in a home on the Ottawa River south of the City, on the way to Prescott… and my sister who lives in the Glebe. I myself lived in Ottawa with my family when I was a kid… from around age 5 to 16. Great town but it felt a little small to me and I was happy to leave when I did. I like the valley a lot but I dig the Gatineaus/Laurentians even more, and closer to my neck of the woods, Highway 7 and the Rideau Lakes rocks. Loves me some Canadian shield.


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