# CITES certification for exporting used guitars?



## fonziedog (Apr 10, 2012)

I've sold a few guitars to buyers in the US on Reverb.com over the last year but suspect I can no longer do that without CITES certification. 

Anyone have intel where a (casual) seller would look first to do this legitimately?


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Canada - CITES Management Authority
Canadian Wildlife Service
Environment Canada
OTTAWA, ONTARIO
K1A 0H3
Tel: +1 (819) 938 41 19
Fax: +1 (819) 938 41 46
Email: ec.cites.ec @ canada.ca
Website: http://www.cites.ca


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

New CITES Regulations For All Rosewood Species


The exporter must apply for a re-exportation license when shipping across an international border


----------



## exhausted (Feb 10, 2006)

Seems like the timeframe for them providing a permit is something like 40 calendar days after application which pretty much quashes any ability to do private sales. i.e. no one in the states is going to be cool with waiting 40 days to get a guitar shipped to them.

http://www.ec.gc.ca/cites/BA634294-...et_CITES_Export_wood_or_wood_products_eng.pdf


----------



## fonziedog (Apr 10, 2012)

Thanks all! Found this as well: Environment and Climate Change Canada - Nature - Your title


----------



## fonziedog (Apr 10, 2012)

exhausted said:


> Seems like the timeframe for them providing a permit is something like 40 calendar days after application which pretty much quashes any ability to do private sales. i.e. no one in the states is going to be cool with waiting 40 days to get a guitar shipped to them.
> 
> http://www.ec.gc.ca/cites/BA634294-...et_CITES_Export_wood_or_wood_products_eng.pdf


Wow, yes that will impair a sale. I hoped, before reading it, that a generic certificate could be generated but the Recipient information is required for the application.


----------



## fonziedog (Apr 10, 2012)

Here's a link to the actual application:
http://www.ec.gc.ca/cites/BA634294-...6/CITES_Export-wood_and_wood_products_eng.pdf


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

According to Reverb, it is going to take "months" for the US Fish and Wildlife to catch up...


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Found a loophole

It does not apply to instruments shipped _within_ the borders of your country or* instruments carried for personal use while traveling internationally* [unless they contain more than 22 lbs. (10 kg) of the regulated woods]

Carry it across the border and mail it. No paperwork required. Just make sure you have less than 22lbs of rosewood on the guitar. LOL


----------



## exhausted (Feb 10, 2006)

Fuck it. I'll just keep all my guitars.


----------



## Gimper (Jan 14, 2016)

exhausted said:


> Fuck it. I'll just keep all my guitars.


Or sell them to fellow Canadians.


----------



## exhausted (Feb 10, 2006)

Gimper said:


> Or sell them to fellow Canadians.


Yep. That's the plan for anything with rosewood. I found an sg the other day I'd been looking for for quite a while. I was over the moon to find it was in Canada.


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I had the same problem. Was trying to find a Les Paul Jr., and was hoping for something from japan mid 80's but had to settle for a Gibson located in Canada instead.


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Gimper said:


> Or sell them to fellow Canadians.





exhausted said:


> Yep. That's the plan for anything with rosewood. I found an sg the other day I'd been looking for for quite a while. I was over the moon to find it was in Canada.


It would be great to see something like Kijiji put protocols in place for safe and easy transfer of funds and potential for shipping instruments within Canada. 
Tons of great gear across this country but tough to get at if its not local.


----------



## fonziedog (Apr 10, 2012)

vadsy said:


> It would be great to see something like Kijiji put protocols in place for safe and easy transfer of funds and potential for shipping instruments within Canada.
> Tons of great gear across this country but tough to get at if its not local.


Out of curiosity I did a few Reverb searches and specified Canada as the location of the product. There are a lot of listings for items like 335s and SGs but pricing is at the higher end. Those prices may come down now that the American market has vanished (or least got more difficult to sell to).

What about stores like Ishibashi in Japan selling to Canada? Since the recent changes affecting rosewood are to American legislation, not Canadian rules, will Japanese sellers still sell to Canadian buyers?


----------



## exhausted (Feb 10, 2006)

fonziedog said:


> Out of curiosity I did a few Reverb searches and specified Canada as the location of the product. There are a lot of listings for items like 335s and SGs but pricing is at the higher end. Those prices may come down now that the American market has vanished (or least got more difficult to sell to).
> 
> What about stores like Ishibashi in Japan selling to Canada? Since the recent changes affecting rosewood are to American legislation, not Canadian rules, will Japanese sellers still sell to Canadian buyers?


CITES is international and Ishibashi has stopped shipping anything with rosewood for now. I asked them last week.


----------



## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

So does that mean I can't sell a guitar with a rosewood board on Reverb??
I thought this whole thing was only for companies. What happens if I try??


----------



## losch79 (Jul 11, 2016)

capnjim said:


> So does that mean I can't sell a guitar with a rosewood board on Reverb??
> I thought this whole thing was only for companies. What happens if I try??


You can still sell on Reverb but you will have to obtain the re-export certificate which can take up to 40 days, which will pretty much kill any sort of Reverb/Ebay sale you have outside of Canada. You can try to ship the guitar without the certificate; best case scenario is it gets through US customs without an issue. Worst case, the guitar is confiscated, you lose the guitar and you will have to refund the full amount to the buyer.


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I asked Reverb, what would happen "if", and all they will say is please refer to the web page on their site. So you are not covered on Reverb if customs steps in due to lack of paper work.

Are they expecting the average Joe to know about this though? Are there tv commercials? ( I wouldn't know I refuse to pay 100/month for cable)


----------



## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

fonziedog said:


> Those prices may come down now that the American market has vanished


Hmm ... I'd be afraid of the contrary. Item will be harder to find within our borders, thus a higher price.


----------



## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

I live 10 mins from the US border and can both send & receive guitars within the US. Since they're for personal use only, I hope the same rule applies whenever I bring one back into Canada....


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

knight_yyz said:


> I asked Reverb, what would happen "if", and all they will say is please refer to the web page on their site. So you are not covered on Reverb if customs steps in due to lack of paper work.
> 
> Are they expecting the average Joe to know about this though? Are there tv commercials? ( I wouldn't know I refuse to pay 100/month for cable)


The average seller should do some research before they sell something.

Bear in mind this also means Reverb will probably see a *steep* drop in sales now that everyone would rather sell within their own borders.


----------



## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

StevieMac said:


> I live 10 mins from the US border and can both send & receive guitars within the US. Since they're for personal use only, I hope the same rule applies whenever I bring one back into Canada....


Guess who just got voted in as the offical GC US sales middle man


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

the Cites website says you can bring the guitar with you across the border, but you "may" have to declare crossing to USA and they might be diligent, they may not be. What if you declare on the way to the US, you declare to be safe, (pop the trunk please) you convince them it belongs to you, you're just visiting buddies to jam, they let you pass. Will they notify Canada customs to expect you back with the same guitar? Will customs even care? If you want to bring one back, will customs check for rosewood and a permit for import?


----------



## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

If you dont have the paper work, your in for a bad day... 
this is from government web site

As well, a CITES permit or certificate will not be issued to release CITES-listed specimens 
which have been detained by customs due to lack of required CITES documents.


----------



## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

From what i have been reading it can take up to 120 days to get a permit, according to Martin guitar company. They say they can only ship guitar through the airports that have Cities inspectors, so now shipping cost have gone way up.

Also say the only problem they find with your guitar is it has an ivory nut on it that you did not know. You cannot take the nut off it and go on your way..they will seize the whole guitar. Also if they think you were trying to get away with it, they can fine up to 50,000..

This changes everything, i cannot sell any of my guitars out of Canada, unless a person from the US wants to drive up and deal with the headaches.


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I got in touch with a guy on ebay in Japan and he said 2 weeks to get the permit at his end. Ishibashi is working on a permit but it might take them longer as they are big online dealer, They can't have to apply to Japan for one per guitar I'm sure. At least I hope not.


----------



## toby2 (Dec 2, 2006)

Been thinking of getting a 60's Gibson guitar restored by a shop down in the USA . It will have to cross the border two times . Not sure how that will go


----------



## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

toby2 said:


> Been thinking of getting a 60's Gibson guitar restored by a shop down in the USA . It will have to cross the border two times . Not sure how that will go


Its a gamble each time. You might lose the guitar. I pulled my guitars off of Reverb. What a ridiculous law. How come they can't just stop the big companies from chopping down the rain forest? How the hell is my not being able to ship my vintage guitar to the US going to help anything????
Crap....
I'm bummed as I just picked up a '63 Players grade Jazzmaster I know would sell for 3k US. But no, I won't take the chance of being an evil scumbag exporter of Rosewood.


----------



## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I still don't understand why this affects all guitars.

Why would it not just affect guitars built only after the new rules?
You're not harvesting any wood for a guitar that's already been built.

Why couldn't you just have proof of its age to be pre-'17?


----------



## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

capnjim said:


> How come they can't just stop the big companies from chopping down the rain forest?


If they were successful in doing that, we wouldn't be having this discussion. A few bad apples spoil the bunch.

I get the sense that this was agreed to as an extreme measure because of the extreme damage being done. People caring about nothing but money, not caring whether there will be any more rosewood in the world for them to steal if they chop everything down.

I also get the sense that this was rushed in with minimal prep work in advance by the involved governments. That tells me that the situation must be grim.

The guitar makers will sort this out with composite fretboards, alternative woods and getting the proper certifications, though I actually worry this will create a bad situation for the world's ebony supply.

I have heard it said that hunters are some of the strongest conservationists because they want to be able to keep hunting -- killing everything just makes no sense. I am in that camp -- best to have some hardship/inconvenience now for greater benefit in the future.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Rollin Hand said:


> If they were successful in doing that, we wouldn't be having this discussion. *A few bad apples* spoil the bunch.


Absolutely. One bad apple doesn't but when there are a few or more, it definitely does.

It seems there is a song for every point of view these days. Here is an older one.


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Apparently it's China's fault. The rich Chinese love high end rosewood furniture so they went nuts and started buying as much as they could as fast as they could. They did the same thing a while back with steel. The automotive stamping industry had to buy cheaper inferior steel to build cars with because China was buying the good stuff faster than it could be made.


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

My Greco should be here on Monday. I'll let you guys know how it goes.


----------



## toby2 (Dec 2, 2006)

Would a 54 reissue Les Paul Custom be affected by Cites ? The guitar has an ebony board and is all mahogany .


----------



## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

knight_yyz said:


> My Greco should be here on Monday. I'll let you guys know how it goes.


Please do...I am tempeted to sell my '63 Jazzmaster on reverb as I know it would sell in flash. Its not selling here and Kijiji is a joke.


----------



## exhausted (Feb 10, 2006)

toby2 said:


> Would a 54 reissue Les Paul Custom be affected by Cites ? The guitar has an ebony board and is all mahogany .


Shouldn't be.


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

The guitar from Japan came through with a rosewood board and no paperwork. Maybe we have a bit of time before they clamp down? Probably don't have enough inspectors to know the difference.

On another note, it is the first time I have ever had to pay duty on an item. that extra 6% hurts when you dont expect it


----------



## tomsy49 (Apr 2, 2015)

What will make it really tough for anyone checking into the rosewood thing will be that you could send a guitar with a maple neck and state that it is a guitar on the form or you can send a rosewood one and it will say the exact same thing on the customs form. I don't really know anything about CITES or how they are run but if it's up to the customs agents to watch for it i don't feel like they will want to make more work for themselves aside from random checks they do on packages.


----------



## AirForbes1 (Jan 11, 2015)

I just found out about this. I'm quite confused.

If we were buying a guitar from the US, how many documents do we need?

A US export, a Canadian Import, or both?


----------



## keto (May 23, 2006)

So I though maybe I'd just go ahead and get export certs for a few choice pieces just to have on hand. Nope, need to name a specific receiver. There must be a way around that, a blanket cert, if dealers/manufacturers are getting them. Anone have the inside scoop on that?


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

The exporter is responsible for the paperwork. Seller is responsible for the guitar until it gets into your house. 

In regards to buying certificates, I don't think Canada is set up properly for that yet. So there is a waiting period to get the documents.


----------



## AirForbes1 (Jan 11, 2015)

Cheers


----------



## Drix (Oct 19, 2018)

New member here. How are you ?
I have been reading this CITES topic for a good week now but can’t get a solid answer about my case. I plan to sell a 1924 Martin Mandolin B. It’s needs some work cos the body is squeeking and need a new bridge. I have a prospective buyer in the US already but I’m pretty hesitant to pull the trigger and sell. It’s almost 100 years old with Brazillian wood and perhaps ivory tuners. Do you think I still need the certificate for me to sell it? Thank you and all help is appreciated .


----------



## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

Drix said:


> New member here. How are you ?
> I have been reading this CITES topic for a good week now but can’t get a solid answer about my case. I plan to sell a 1924 Martin Mandolin B. It’s needs some work cos the body is squeeking and need a new bridge. I have a prospective buyer in the US already but I’m pretty hesitant to pull the trigger and sell. It’s almost 100 years old with Brazillian wood and perhaps ivory tuners. Do you think I still need the certificate for me to sell it? Thank you and all help is appreciated .


The Brazilian part is where the big problems lies. It's in a separate category than standard rosewood and I believe it's trade is banned. You'll want to research that specifically or risk having your instrument seized. How they would know is beyond me, but forewarned is forearmed. The ivory is also banned. Sell it in Canada.


----------



## Blind Dog (Mar 4, 2016)

Brazilian, and ivory? That's exactly what you don't want to send without research/paperwork. There's no appeal. There's no do-over.

I don't think you can currently sell Brazilian internationally. And carrying across, for a sale, is also restricted.




https://www.fws.gov/international/pdf/update-brazilian-rosewood-preconvention-imports-eu.pdf

CITES

Trade in protected species: frequently asked questions - Canada.ca



"... In 1992, Brazilian rosewood was added to the CITES treaty, strictly banning its exportation. Today, Brazilian rosewood can only be obtained and used for guitars (or anything, really) if it was harvested and exported prior to the CITES ban, or harvested from trees that have fallen naturally—and is accompanied with a certificate of provenance in both cases. ... _when you do use it in a new guitar (or even have it in an existing vintage guitar), be aware that you’ll need documentation to prove its pre-CITES or CITES-approved status if you plan to take it across international borders._ ..." -- guitarplayer.com 

EDIT: *It's not lazy sellers*, it's nothing to do with "*bother*"—it's appendices I, while there are a few exceptions, generally Brazilian rosewood (_*Dalbergia ******) _is restricted.


----------



## Yamariv (Jan 15, 2018)

Lots of speculation and misinformation in this thread.. 

Brazilian Rosewood is a completely different game than regular Indian rosewood. Braz is on the same protection list as Ivory so you will need and import and an export Cities permit from each country before shipping. Braz can be shipped but it is a BIG process and most sellers don't want to bother..


----------

