# Snow/White Noise sound suddenly coming through amp. :( It figures



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

I FINALLY sold off all my extra amps after deciding on what am is simply "for me." It took months to do but here we are and I am happy. So of course today when I plug into my beloved tube rectified Traynor bassmaster I am greeted with a weird "snow" or "white noise ssshhhhhh" coming from the amp 

First guess, bad tube. I had just jammed with the amp and have been blasting it a bit as of late so I though maybe one of the old tubes has simply given up. However, I have changed every tube (except the rectifier) one at at time, but the sound is still there. This cannot be a tube problem.

The amp had a cap job and bias last year so it is in nice shape. So now I am just wondering, WTF.

Any suggestions or guesses?

Sigh, 

TG


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I am going to *guess* that the noise is from a carbon comp resistor (or resistors) that has/have drifted way off of spec.

I await the responses from amp techs.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Thanks for the info/tip Dave. I hope to check this out and hear from others.

However . . . I DID sell the YBA-2 bass_mate _because, as cool as the YBA-2 is, the YBA-1 bas_smaster _just seems to be 'my amp' so to speak.

Here is a pic of the guts of this amp if you are interested . . .












greco said:


> I am going to *guess* that the noise is from a carbon comp resistor (or resistors) that has/have drifted way off of spec.
> 
> I await the responses from amp techs.
> 
> ...


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

OOOOPS !! So sorry !!

I changed my post to avoid confusion. 

However, this _YBA-1 *bassmaster *_has even more carbon comps that the Traynor YBA-2A head that you sold...so I might still have a reasonable chance with my guess.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## FrankyNoTone (Feb 27, 2012)

Once you get the Snow/White noise in your amp, the only thing left to do is put seven dwarf pedals on your board.


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

FrankyNoTone said:


> Once you get the Snow/White noise in your amp, the only thing left to do is put seven dwarf pedals on your board.


I just picked up on how my subject line reads right before reading your post. What noise does Snow white make, and what is she doing while making it? LOL

I bet she is playing my amp . . .


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

*I bet she is playing my amp . . .*

Hard to tell because of the cats....










Cheers

Dave


----------



## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

http://www.geofex.com/ampdbug/hiss.htm


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Greco is right, TG! For the zillionth time - CARBON COMPS ARE THE BIGGEST HISS AND SPIT GENERATORS EVER INVENTED! THEY SHOULD BE BANNED!

There is no tone involved with resistance. Tone is a change in an audio signal that is different at different frequencies. If you cut mids or boost highs you are changing the tone. Resistance is not selective. It cuts ALL frequencies equally! That's VOLUME!

As for the claims by guys on the net that the old fashioned carbon comps have better tone, they either LIE or they are IGNORANT!

If ignorant, it is because they never actually opened a book on electronics theory in their lives. If they are lying, it usually is because they SELL carbon comps! Industry bailed out of selling carbon comps as fast as they could once films were invented and available back in the mid 60's.

Back in the Golden Years of tubes, no one used carbon comps for better tone. They used them because that was the only kind of resistor available for the job! No one had yet invented anything better that was cheap enough to be cost-effective.

Carbon comps are made of tiny grains of carbon packed together, inside a ceramic body. A voltage surge can and will burn those particles. This changes the value, causing it to drift away from what is marked on the body. If there is enough burning, the voltage path through the resistor is no longer a continuous one. The signal makes tiny arcs as it jumps from one charred particle to another.

This is what makes the hissing and spitting noises! It is literally sparking inside the resistor!

There is only one practical cure. Yank 'em! Then bury them!

Replace them with modern carbon films. You will get a further benefit. Film resistors are not only MUCH quieter, when they suffer a burnout they just char until they blow open.

Carbon comps burst into flame! Gee, isn't that great! A genuine flame happening inside your amp!

Carbon films are more than quiet enough for a guitar amp but if you are anal about it and want the quietest, studio-ready amp, then use metal films. That's what all the audiophile amps use.

BTW, that sure doesn't look like a board used by Pete Traynor in your amp! Looks like an after-market, recent replacement. That would make sense, because at the time your amp left the factory I am pretty sure it had been stuffed with more modern carbon films. I'm not sure if Pete EVER used carbon comps! His amps started coming out just as carbon comps were abandoned.

So that's your first likely culprit! Carbon comps should be changed first, as while they may not be the culprit this time they certainly will be eventually!

If you still have the hiss, replace the power resistors in the filter cap string. Again, NO carbon comps!

Third down the list of most-likely suspects is a bad solder joint, especially any that carry high voltage. This means a plate connection is more likely than a eyelet point for a grid cap and resistor. It's not worth trying to find the culprit in an amp like yours. I just reheat ALL the solder points! It's faster.

Last on the list because it's rather rare is a wax-coated board having picked up grungy particles and moisture while the wax was soft and melted from internal heat under the chassis. If the dust or dirt particles picked up in the wax were conductive, they can provide an arc-laded path for voltages to points where they shouldn't go, like the grid inputs of the preamp tubes! The easiest way to tell if this is happening is to clip your negative meter lead to the chassis and then just poke the positive lead directly onto a few open areas on the board, where there are NO connections happening!

Make sure you are using a millivolt scale, the most sensitive on a good meter, not some Crappy Tire unit designed to never read voltage lower than a car battery accurately. If there is a problem with dirty wax with moisture in it then you will get readings. They could be anywhere from a few millivolt to several HUNDRED millivolt, in extreme cases! I had one of those in an old BF Fender. Drove me crazy until I pinned it down.

It's a good thing that this source of hissing is rare, because it can be a real pain in the ass to fix. If you are really lucky, you can just leave the amp on all night hoping that the internal heat will dry up the moisture in the wax. 

Sometimes this actually works! Sometimes we win a bit of money on the lottery, too.

More often you have to open up the amp and leave it with a heat lamp directed at the board for a few hours to overnight.

Worst case, you have to replace the entire board. Believe it or not, moving all the parts onto a new board is faster!

I've only had to do that once. I didn't use a board - I have enough experience to use tie strips and true old-fashioned point to point. This allowed me more room and I was able to squeeze in a Dumble style overdrive.

It sounded heavenly! Of course, that was when my customer played it. Somehow, no matter what I do when I play an amp the sound just sucks!

Must be the acoustics in my shop. What else could it be?

Wild Bill/Busen Amps


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

mrmatt1972 said:


> http://www.geofex.com/ampdbug/hiss.htm


Thanks for the link. Very helpful.

The volume knobs do not make the hiss louder or softer. I then starting pulling preamp tubes starting with the PI, then V2, then V1. Removing either the PI or V2 made the amp dead quiet. When I removed V1, however, there was the noise! I think this means that something in wrong in V1 or before.

TG


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Wow, thanks for all the info Bill! So how do you really feel about carbon comps? LOL

Read my above post, my problem seems related to V1. Can you point out the V1 carbon comps in my pic?

speaking of the pic, the additional turret board was installed my tech so he could do a cap job without drilling the chassis. The amp may have a few mods, but this is a very early bassmaster so it most likely came with carbon comps; this one is probably from 1965 (tube rectified, 7027 power tubes).

thanks again,
TG


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

traynor_garnet said:


> Wow, thanks for all the info Bill! So how do you really feel about carbon comps (CC's)? LOL


Mirror, mirror on the wall,
Who hates CC's most of all?

Cheers

Dave


----------



## JHarasym (Mar 27, 2007)

Newbie question : how do you tell the carbon comp from metal film resistors? The images I found googling this shows the carbon ones coloured brown, and the metal ones coloured light blue, but the basic shape being similar. Any other tell-tale signs?

EDIT -if markings are visible the prefixes may indicate type :
CR = carbon composite
CF = carbon film
MFR = metal film 
W or WH = wire wound


----------



## JHarasym (Mar 27, 2007)

I am very intersted in this thread, as my Bassmaster is also making some Snow White (and occaionally Sneezy) noise, which is making me Grumpy but I'm too Dopey to fix it on my own.


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

traynor_garnet said:


> Wow, thanks for all the info Bill! So how do you really feel about carbon comps? LOL
> 
> Read my above post, my problem seems related to V1. Can you point out the V1 carbon comps in my pic?
> 
> ...


Far right in your picture, TG. Especially those two on the board closest to the tube socket. Those are the plate resistors, connecting to pins 1 and 6 and then joined together in the middle.

However, I really suggest you save yourself future grief and change ALL the resistors on that board!

Certainly you will want to reheat the solder connections around V1. I don't know why your tech had to change the board to re-cap with no new drilling. I've done it lots of times! Got to admit he did a nice job! Better looking than some of my jobs, I admit. Still, in electronics more than anything else, something can look beautiful and work poorly, or not at all.Especially with lead dress, or how you arrange the parts and how the leads and wires run. Many times you can make them look pretty and cause squealing oscillations.

As for 1965 using carbon comps, maybe. There are guys on this board with better historical record than me. Still, I don't think Pete EVER used them! Certainly, I find it hard to believe that a tech would go to the trouble to use new boards, do such a neat job and yet re-use old carbon comps. Almost certainly he used NEW carbon comps! 

That, as I've said many times, makes me wonder if he even OWNS an electronics textboook, 'cuz I refuse to believe he has ever even borrowed one!

Wild Bill/Busen Amps

JH, most of the time carbon comps are truly round, like little beer cans. Films tend to have bulbous ends, making them look like little weightlifting dumbbells.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

JHarasym said:


> I am very intersted in this thread, as my Bassmaster is also making some Snow White (and occaionally Sneezy) noise, which is making me Grumpy but I'm too Dopey to fix it on my own.


*Nominated as one of the best posts for 2013.*

I was "Sleepy" before you wrote this, but now I'm "Happy"

At least you aren't "Bashful" about admitting your confidence re: amp repair 

Now...back to the Carbon Comp saga.....

Cheers

Dave


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Ha! I'm glad my bizarrely worded subject line has fostered so much fun.

TG



greco said:


> Mirror, mirror on the wall,
> Who hates CC's most of all?
> 
> Cheers
> ...


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

traynor_garnet said:


> Ha! I'm glad my bizarrely worded subject line has fostered so much fun. TG


I was hoping that you wouldn't mind me messing with your thread a bit. 

Laughter is the best form of medicine!

Cheers

Dave


----------



## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

traynor_garnet said:


> The volume knobs do not make the hiss louder or softer. I then starting pulling preamp tubes starting with the PI, then V2, then V1. Removing either the PI or V2 made the amp dead quiet. When I removed V1, however, there was the noise! I think this means that something in wrong in V1 or before. TG


 Ok, if the problem was V1 or earlier, the volume and tone controls would affect the noise, and removing V1 would kill it. Removing the PI will kill any noise before the power tubes, so it will only tell you whether an issue is in the power tubes, or before them. You had noise with V1 removed but removing V2 removed the noise so V2 circuit is suspect. Whether or not you want to replace all your carbon comps is up to you, but I would suggest fixing the issue first. Any repairs should always be done before any mods or routine maintenance. This will avoid introducing any new variables to the troubleshooting process. The most likely suspects seem to be the 3 resistors connected to V2. The 100K between pins 1&6, the 100K from pin 3 to ground, and the 820 ohm from pin 8 to ground. A heat gun or freeze spray are also helpful for pinpointing noisy resistors.


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Ok, got it. When V1 is out I am hearing V2 and its noise. Thanks for clearing this up. 

This is interesting because about 5 weeks ago I could swear that the treble on channel two suddenly dropped; i wonder if the two problems are related?

TG



jb welder said:


> Ok, if the problem was V1 or earlier, the volume and tone controls would affect the noise, and removing V1 would kill it. Removing the PI will kill any noise before the power tubes, so it will only tell you whether an issue is in the power tubes, or before them. You had noise with V1 removed but removing V2 removed the noise so V2 circuit is suspect. Whether or not you want to replace all your carbon comps is up to you, but I would suggest fixing the issue first. Any repairs should always be done before any mods or routine maintenance. This will avoid introducing any new variables to the troubleshooting process. The most likely suspects seem to be the 3 resistors connected to V2. The 100K between pins 1&6, the 100K from pin 3 to ground, and the 820 ohm from pin 8 to ground. A heat gun or freeze spray are also helpful for pinpointing noisy resistors.


----------



## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

JHarasym said:


> I am very intersted in this thread, as my Bassmaster is also making some Snow White (and occaionally Sneezy) noise, which is making me Grumpy but I'm too Dopey to fix it on my own.


Just don't call Blitzen and Donner for help.
Translated from German - Blitzen = lightning
Donner = thunder

( I thought this was funny sounding to me)


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

traynor_garnet said:


> Thanks for the info/tip Dave. I hope to check this out and hear from others.
> 
> However . . . I DID sell the YBA-2 bass_mate _because, as cool as the YBA-2 is, the YBA-1 bas_smaster _just seems to be 'my amp' so to speak.
> 
> Here is a pic of the guts of this amp if you are interested . . .


That looks really nice. Lots of room in that chassis.

Love the turret boards.


----------



## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

My 2 cents worth. I would fire the amp up and give the resistors I have highlited, a good firm push and tap.
See if one in particular, responds to being shoved a bit .I have seen the 2 watt carbons in the high voltage section literally become microphonic. I would replace the one's I've highlited first with wirewound /5 watters.








If the noise persists, try pushing the 100k (film) plate resistors around and see if one starts to complain. I wouldn't be concerned about replacing the carbon's in the audio path( AC side of the circuit).
If those 2 watt/100k's on the 100 mfd.filter caps are carbon(looks like), I would replace as well with 2 watt metal film @220k.


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Thanks so much. Would the resistors you highlighted explain why removing V2 stops all the noise? Or, are you suggestions just a general good idea on old amps. I only ask as a way of trying to learn a bit about amps in the process of having to deal with this (when life gives you lemons . . . )



loudtubeamps said:


> My 2 cents worth. I would fire the amp up and give the resistors I have highlited, a good firm push and tap.
> See if one in particular, responds to being shoved a bit .I have seen the 2 watt carbons in the high voltage section literally become microphonic. I would replace the one's I've highlited first with wirewound /5 watters.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

traynor_garnet said:


> Thanks so much. Would the resistors you highlighted explain why removing V2 stops all the noise? Or, are you suggestions just a general good idea on old amps. I only ask as a way of trying to learn a bit about amps in the process of having to deal with this (when life gives you lemons . . . )


 To answer your question........Hopefully this will cure the problem.
Rumour has it that WildBill has mentioned that the carbon's can be troublesome.
I thought I would give u some specific ones to target initially.
Trouble shooting as mentioned by JBWelder is a logical approach to hopefully determining the problem.
It's handy to know where the ailment is before U start "operating" on the patient.
Trouble shooting and diagnosing is usually 90% of the repair.
cheers, d


----------



## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

traynor_garnet said:


> Thanks so much. Would the resistors you highlighted explain why removing V2 stops all the noise? Or, are you suggestions just a general good idea on old amps. I only ask as a way of trying to learn a bit about amps in the process of having to deal with this (when life gives you lemons . . . )


Well, seeing as how you want to learn something  I'll make some comments, hope loudtubeamps won't mind. 

Here's a link to the earliest schematic, without the 5AR4, but should be the same otherwise (not sure if there was a schematic showing the 5AR4, maybe hand-drawn as they were very early): http://www.prowessamplifiers.com/schematics/misc/traynor_bassmaster_yba1.pdf 
The resistor he highlighted on the right is R32, the voltage dropper for the preamp supply. If it were noisy, it would have the same affect as the others I had mentioned, noise with V1 pulled, quiet with V2 pulled. The resistors he highlighted on the left are R31, 1st voltage dropper after the choke, and R26 & R27, screen resistors for the power tubes. These 3 resistors would not cause the problem you are experiencing, but should probably be replaced anyway. 

The resistors I had mentioned in post #19 are shown as R12, R13, & R14 on the schematic (around V2).
Hope that helps.


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Ok, back from the flu and reading again!

thanks for this, your diagnosis seems to be on track given the tube pulling experiment. It is also cool to be walked through a schematic (I am verly slowly starting to understand how to read these a little bit).

Are there any preferred brands/types of resistors for replacing the old carbon comps? I don't want to pay for snake oil but don't want the same resistors used in my son's Tickle me Elmo LOL

TG 



jb welder said:


> Well, seeing as how you want to learn something  I'll make some comments, hope loudtubeamps won't mind.
> 
> Here's a link to the earliest schematic, without the 5AR4, but should be the same otherwise (not sure if there was a schematic showing the 5AR4, maybe hand-drawn as they were very early): http://www.prowessamplifiers.com/schematics/misc/traynor_bassmaster_yba1.pdf
> The resistor he highlighted on the right is R32, the voltage dropper for the preamp supply. If it were noisy, it would have the same affect as the others I had mentioned, noise with V1 pulled, quiet with V2 pulled. The resistors he highlighted on the left are R31, 1st voltage dropper after the choke, and R26 & R27, screen resistors for the power tubes. These 3 resistors would not cause the problem you are experiencing, but should probably be replaced anyway.
> ...


----------



## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

traynor_garnet said:


> Ok, back from the flu and reading again!
> 
> thanks for this, your diagnosis seems to be on track given the tube pulling experiment. It is also cool to be walked through a schematic (I am verly slowly starting to understand how to read these a little bit).
> 
> ...


have a look around online for these
2 watt 220 k 1% metal film resistors - Google Search replaces the 100k bleeder/balance resistors on your big filter caps.

1 watt 100k 1% metal film resistors - Google Search replaces the plate resistors in the pre amp section, although yours should be metal film and should be OK, unless u find one that is pooched.

5 watt 5% wirewound resistors - Google Search can replace the remainder of the carbon resistors found on the high voltage supply.
U may have carbons on the plate resistors for your phase inverter, wouldn't hurt to check those as well.
Refer to JBWelder's post above for location of resistors in question.


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

traynor_garnet said:


> Ok, back from the flu and reading again!
> 
> thanks for this, your diagnosis seems to be on track given the tube pulling experiment. It is also cool to be walked through a schematic (I am verly slowly starting to understand how to read these a little bit).
> 
> ...


Actually TG, you shouldn't have a problem. Resistors are made in mindboggling quantities. In the electronics industry, you have to maintain quality or you just can't play in the game. Not only will a large manufacturer strike your name from his buyers list if he finds you shipped him crap, he will also almost certainly sue you for the losses you caused him! These losses can add up to a LOT of money!

The nature of resistors is they must be made in very large quantities or you can't possibly compete with the market pricing. You just don't make screws onesy-twosy and try to become a supplier to Crappy Tire!

So ANY resistors you or I will ever find will be of similar and sufficient quality.

There will be NO tonal differences between brands of resistors! I have already ranted about that idea. Suffice to say that if someone were to prove that to be true they would be entitled to tell Stephen Hawking they know more than he does and what he does think he knows just proves he is a dillhole!

It ain't gonna happen! The only even slight difference was discovered by a friend of mine in Texas named R G Keen. He is an educated electrical techie and a guru of music electronics. He discovered that if there is sufficient current flowing through a carbon comp resistor that is varying with an audio signal there is a TEENY sonic difference so small that a listener would need bat ears to detect! Such a listener would be more rare than perfect pitch! This difference is the result of making a resistor carbon comp style and will not change from brand to brand.

There is only ONE place in the typical guitar amp where this effect could happen and that is the plate resistors in the phase inverter. Again, the effect will only be with large current flow, which means high volume. Even then it may not happen. It is so subtle that I will cheerfully buy anyone a bottle of scotch if they can detect it, while blindfolded and I am changing resistors in a different room where they cannot see me! Safest bet I ever could make!

That all being said, if you do insist on buying carbon comps you may indeed have a problem! I worked for TTI Inc, a world wide electronics parts distributor who was the last to carry Allen Bradley carbon comp resistors. This was back in the 90's and for over 20 years the only customers for those crappy resistors was the military! The military finds it very difficult and expensive to change the way they do things and so they just kept buying the obsolete carbon comps. Of course with few and then only one company making them the price soared into the stratosphere but Hey! It's only our tax money! What the hell do they care?

So instead of buying films at a couple of dollars per hundred the military paid nearly $2 EACH! I made a lot of commission money selling carbon comps! However, even at those inflated prices the number of carbon comps the entire military market could buy got to be so low that Allen Bradley just didn't find it worth while anymore. So they offered one final "life time buy" to their customers, ran one huge production run and then scrapped the manufacturing machines!

Now of course, the military didn't make their changeover to films right away just because they couldn't get carbon comps anymore. That's not how their brains worked, as anyone who has served or dealt with the military well knows. They just kept trying to buy carbon comps and screeched and howled at their suppliers for not having any!

Meanwhile, nothing got built!

So a few enterprising "gentlemen" in the Orient started up little basement companies making carbon comps and offering them to the military. They were making them almost by hand and the price was therefore up in the ozone but the military didn't care. They wanted them! Mind you, they also needed all the paperwork to show the parts met mil specs. That was no problem for these oriental guys. They just lied! They were perfectly willing to paste up any sort of paperwork you wanted!

So some military buyers did find a new source for carbon comps and were very smug with themselves as they sat waiting for their first shipments to arrive. The boxes hit their receiving docks and were opened up. There were piles and piles of carbon comp resistors.

Unfortunately, when they took the resistors out of the packages half of the leads fell off!

That was the last effort for the military. They "bit the bullet" (pardon the pun) and had the "new fangled" film resistors qualified and approved for military equipment.

Meanwhile, the oriental guys went looking for a new market. They found one with the audiophiles! Most audiophiles couldn't work out an Ohm's Law problem without resorting to a book! Few know a volt from a Christmas tree! The yardstick in the audiophile market is how much chrome is on the knobs and most of all, HOW MUCH DID IT COST! If it is WAY overpriced, it MUST be better!

Carbon comps fit perfectly into that paradigm! An audiophile could buy a film resistor for a nickel or a carbon comp for $5. The fact that the film had less noise was irrelevant. If you spent $5 for each resistor then it HAD to sound better, right?

The problem is, those leads still fall off! And there are of course other quality problems as well. So anyone who insists on using carbon comps is essentially playing russian roulette. Especially since when they fail they can burst into flame!

BTW TG, I also agree with finding the specific source of a problem but in the case of an amp wired with carbon comps making noise, I don't think the situation is the same. If you replace all the carbon comps with modern resistors any resistor noise or drifting problem will be gone. That was the goal anyway! More important, you won't have another carbon comp go loopy next month! Rather than possibly replacing carbon comps one at a time I feel it is best to just do them all at one time.

Especially if it is not my amp but one belonging to a customer. Do you really want to pay a tech for each time he opened up your amp to replace ONE carbon comp resistor? Knowing full well that he will be able to charge you multiple times if there are multiple failures?

I just won't do that. You can lose business if found out playing that game. Rightly so!

Wild Bill/Busen Amps


----------



## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Good points Bill. 

Another reason to replace carbon comp resistors is drift. Carbon resisitors are notorious for drifting off spec. In some cases WAY off spec.
In certain circuits, it's not a big problem however in some more critical circuits it can make significant differences...like in a preamp tube's bias circuit. 

Old Fenders are awful for resistor drift and the cumulative effect of several circuits being off spec results in an amp sounding considerably different than it did when it left the factory. Compound that with the fact that early Fenders along with other manufacturers, used 1/4 watt carbon resistors as plate load resistors whose high voltage can stress them (Fender finally relented in the '70's and used 1/2 watt) and you get the picture.


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

nonreverb said:


> Good points Bill.
> 
> Another reason to replace carbon comp resistors is drift. Carbon resisitors are notorious for drifting off spec. In some cases WAY off spec.
> In certain circuits, it's not a big problem however in some more critical circuits it can make significant differences...like in a preamp tube's bias circuit.
> ...


Oh yeah! You're preaching to the choir, NR!

'Course, with my playing it's kinda hard to tell if there are any problems in the amp. I began to suspect my fingers aren't that great when I found my dog loves to hear customers play but wants to be let outside if I fire up!

BTW, he REALLY likes the Milkman! Perhaps the TimBits Mike brought him had something to do with it.

Wild Bill/Busen Amps


----------



## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Wild Bill said:


> Rather than possibly replacing carbon comps one at a time I feel it is best to just do them all at one time.
> 
> Especially if it is not my amp but one belonging to a customer. Do you really want to pay a tech for each time he opened up your amp to replace ONE carbon comp resistor? Knowing full well that he will be able to charge you multiple times if there are multiple failures?
> 
> I just won't do that. You can lose business if found out playing that game. Rightly so!


Well, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and trust you are not implying that I would "play that game"  .
I'm aware that it is not a customers amp and TG is trying to learn about it, so my response is tailored to the particular circumstances.
You suggested replacing all resistors, I only count one third being carbon comp so I would limit it to those. I think we can agree to disagree on that point.
My procedure would be to isolate the noisy one(s) with freeze spray or heat from my iron, just to know I have definitely solved the noise issue. Then I would carry on with more routine maintenance, such as replacing the other CC's, cleaning pots, jacks, dirty sockets etc., bias and final test.

You mentioned RG Keen's excellent article on CC's so I'll link the article here: http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/carbon_comp/carboncomp.htm

Here are a couple interesting pics I stole from another forum, only the resistor on the left is carbon comp, all the others are carbon film. 
View attachment 2639
View attachment 2640


I am not aware of carbon film causing the type of problems CC's do, but am all ears if someone knows of carbon films being problematic.

On to TG's particular YBA-1, these were the first Traynor amps (originally called dyna-bass). I'm guessing the 0388 written in the chassis is the serial number. According to the yorkville website (http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=71&cat=46&id=293) that would put it around 1965-1966. As far as the 5AR4 version goes, I think the schematic was still hand drawn, I haven't seen a printed version with the 5AR4. So it is possible Traynor may have been using carbon comps at that time. The filter caps were cans, so that filter cap board would not be stock, but added in later. The main turret board is probably stock but I can't say for sure.


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

JB, I completely understood your advice was in the context of someone fixing their own amp! No disrespect intended.

I also missed the fact that not all the resistors were carbon comps. It would be redundant and wasteful to replace the ones that weren't carbon comp.

Very neat pictures! Ont the right yo can clearly see the compressed slug of carbon particles that is the actual resistance element in a carbon comp. Not just pretty but instructive!

I have never heard of a film causing carbon comp type problems either, JB.

As for Pete having used carbon comps in the earliest years, I dunno. I have worked on some of his earliest amps and never seen any, yet anything is possible.

Wild Bill/Busen Amps


----------



## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Same here Bill, all the oder Traynor stuff I've seen has carbon film, but I don't recall working on any old enough to pre-date the printed schematic stuck inside the chassis.
BTW, if anyone has a copy of the schematic for the YBA-1 with 5AR4 rectifier, please post it! All I've seen is the hand drawing for the 5AR4 to SS rectifier conversion.


----------



## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

jb welder said:


> Same here Bill, all the oder Traynor stuff I've seen has carbon film, but I don't recall working on any old enough to pre-date the printed schematic stuck inside the chassis.
> BTW, if anyone has a copy of the schematic for the YBA-1 with 5AR4 rectifier, please post it! All I've seen is the hand drawing for the 5AR4 to SS rectifier conversion.


 hope this helps, it's the only one I have in my pooter.
Cheers, d
BTW.Aren't carbon comps the only one's with a molding seam down the sides? Easy to spot.


----------



## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Wow...80uf with a tube rectifier. That's pretty well top end.


----------



## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

Yeah, top end plus 20uf. Hope it's a Mullard.


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Wow, thanks guys. Ton of info here. I just started reading the thread again after a weekend of the stomach flu, but it seems the board got the flu yesterday! LOL

I just heard from my tech and he is going to look at the amp early next week. He speakes very little English, I am unilingual English. Let the good times role! LOL I mention this because if I have even a surface understanding of the technical problem, I can at least try to discuss the amp with him. He was recommended by several people and he did the cap job you see in the pic (which a few one people have complimented as high quality work).

Regarding my amp. The main turret board is original. The one holding the new caps was added by my tech so that we could leave the original cans in place; this way the amp still looks "right" when you look at at from the outside. Kind of a cool solution for balancing original aesthetics with functional need. 

I thought I had the original schem for these early ones, but I think it is just the material already posted here (hand drawn tube rectified section with main printed schem for a 7027 equipped amp). I will hunt on my old laptop and see if I can find a full tube rectified schematic in one piece. I swear I once had one.

Not sure if the "80 uf with a tube rectifier is top end" remark means it is the top end of performance or top end in sound quality. I do LOVE these early units though because they are a perfect blend of Fender top end sparkle, Marshall grind, and _just a little bit _of Hi Watt fidelity. The cleans have a deeper 3-D quality that I don't hear on the later bassmasters (which sound great in their own way) and it doesn't mush out on the bottom (Fender) or lose the top end sparkle (Marshall) when pushed.

TG


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

traynor_garnet said:


> Not sure if the "80 uf with a tube rectifier is top end" remark means it is the top end of performance or top end in sound quality. I do LOVE these early units though because they are a perfect blend of Fender top end sparkle, Marshall grind, and _just a little bit _of Hi Watt fidelity. The cleans have a deeper 3-D quality that I don't hear on the later bassmasters (which sound great in their own way) and it doesn't mush out on the bottom (Fender) or lose the top end sparkle (Marshall) when pushed.
> 
> TG


Top end? Wrong on both counts, TG, I'm afraid!

What the gents were talking about is that tube rectifiers have an upper limit on how large a value you can use for the first filter cap they see. When the amp is first turned on the odds are that filter cap is empty of energy. So it looks like a dead short to the rectifier for a brief instant, until it starts to charge up a bit.

To large a value is hard on the life of the tube rectifier. Solid state diodes have a VERY high tolerance for that first turn-on surge! That's why on amps that use SS diodes you see those much higher filter cap values.

Pete was young when he designed that amp. He probably didn't know about that limit for a 5AR4. Or more likely, he figured he could push the envelope. 

He was building for rock and roll, after all! evilGuitar:

Wild Bill/Busen Amps


----------



## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

loudtubeamps said:


> BTW.Aren't carbon comps the only one's with a molding seam down the sides? Easy to spot.


 All resistors with the seams may well be carbon comp, but not all carbon comps have the molding seams. The standard CC type in vintage Fender's (like in pic in post #32 far left) did not have the seams, or am I not understanding correctly? I generally assume resistors with dark brown straight bodies and squared edges to be carbon comps.


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Ok, so I just heard from my tech. He says that it actually my tube sockets that are making noise (the power tube sockets were replaced but the preamp sockets are original). Does this seems plausible? Should I just have them replaced and be done with it, or should I try to salvage the originals some how?

TG


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

traynor_garnet said:


> Ok, so I just heard from my tech. He says that it actually my tube sockets that are making noise (the power tube sockets were replaced but the preamp sockets are original). Does this seems plausible? Should I just have them replaced and be done with it, or should I try to salvage the originals some how?
> 
> TG


Well, we can always learn new things, I guess! Still, I'm 60 years old and I have never heard that one before!

Kinda hard to imagine how the idea would even work, to be honest.

Are you SURE this guy is really a tech?

Look around his workbench. Does he own even ONE electronics book?

Wild Bill/Busen Amps


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Really? I thought tube sockets can loose their tension, get dirty, and cause noise? While you can clean them and re-tension them, after awhile it is easiest to just replace them. In fact, I am reading about a guy who is having the same problem with a bassmate.

I could also be dead wrong here.

TG



Wild Bill said:


> Well, we can always learn new things, I guess! Still, I'm 60 years old and I have never heard that one before!
> 
> Kinda hard to imagine how the idea would even work, to be honest.
> 
> ...


----------



## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

You are correct. I would think cleaning and resoldering them should take care of the problem. If one of the pins were cracked or the pins could no longer be retensioned, then replacement would be necessary. If dirty/oxidized socket (or bad solder) is the problem, then wiggling the tube in the socket while the noise is occurring should affect the noise. However, I would tend to call the noise from a dirty socket more of a "crackling" than a constant snow/ white noise, so it may be the terminology here causing confusion.


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

traynor_garnet said:


> Really? I thought tube sockets can loose their tension, get dirty, and cause noise? While you can clean them and re-tension them, after awhile it is easiest to just replace them. In fact, I am reading about a guy who is having the same problem with a bassmate.
> 
> I could also be dead wrong here.
> 
> TG


No, you are not wrong, TG. It CAN happen! It's just not that common!

While I do see lots of dirty contacts in tube sockets, a shot of cleaner usually fixes them right up! I only see a problem with tension every few years, if then. After all, it's not like tube pins are shoved into the socket every day! Some of the bargain bin amps did use very cheap sockets that might lose tension over the years but most decent guitar amp makers used reasonable quality socket brands.

So while it can and does happen it seems to be exaggerated as a problem.

Also, the noise tends to be deeper and more "crackly", like an intermittent connection would be expected to sound. I have never heard it make a white noise sort of hiss but as I said, anything is possible.

I just think you are repeatedly being given long shot explanations of exceedingly rare possible causes, which makes me think that perhaps your tech is not all that experienced.

There is a self-proclaimed tech here in Hamilton who seems to find with every diagnosis that the problem in an amp is the output transformer. If it is a solid state amp that doesn't HAVE an OT he will then say it is the power transformer!

He keeps losing customers, because he eventually runs out of things to replace.

You must make up your own mind but if I were you I would have had my confidence shaken. 

Does he normally work on audiophile equipment, by any chance?

I don't recall if you told me if he had traced the noise with a scope. 

Does he own a scope?

Wild Bill/Busen Amps.


----------



## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

I've been there with busted/fatigued socket clips.It's pretty easy just to replace the broken tube pin clip rather than the entire socket.
Unless the amp has really been abused or in a really horrible enviornment, sockets will normally last the lifetime of the amp.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Out of curiosity, why does Trinity amps specify carbon comp resistors for their 18 watt amps and amp kits?

http://www.trinityamps.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=950


----------



## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

Milkman said:


> Out of curiosity, why does Trinity amps specify carbon comp resistors for their 18 watt amps and amp kits?
> 
> http://www.trinityamps.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=950


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Out of curiosity, why does Trinity amps specify carbon comp resistors for their 18 watt amps and amp kits?
> 
> http://www.trinityamps.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=950


Because either Mr. Trinity believes the mojo himself (who says he's a real tech anyway? You don't have to be to make a kit!) OR - he thinks it's a marketing lure over his competitors.

Wild Bill/Busen Amps


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Ah, I see.

Well, for the record, the reason I asked the question is because I intend to build an 18 watt Plexi clone and I would like to make it as practical as possible.

Yes, I want the tone, and I want to keep it old school (no PC boards or chips) but I would prefer to make improvements while I'm building, as opposed to modding later.


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Ah, I see.
> 
> Well, for the record, the reason I asked the question is because I intend to build an 18 watt Plexi clone and I would like to make it as practical as possible.
> 
> Yes, I want the tone, and I want to keep it old school (no PC boards or chips) but I would prefer to make improvements while I'm building, as opposed to modding later.


Mike, don't let Trinity's use of carbon comps stop you from buying one of their kits! From what I've seen and heard, they make a reasonably good product and stand behind it. As long as the overall price is acceptable I don't see how you can lose.

I would just be aware of what CAN happen! If your Plexi clone ever gets "hissy" you should know by now how to fix it!

However, there's another option. I was impressed with your craftsmanship. Why not just make a Plexi clone from scratch?

If you look at how such Marshalls were made, you essentially have a simple box cabinet with a rectangular chassis mounted central and front, with an overall front panel to mask it.

You can source the transformers from Hammond in Guelph. Nutech in Hamilton is a disti for them and would take your order. There's also Neutron Electronics in Guelph.

I would be glad to help you with technical specs on the parts. Also, give you my own sources.

That's how I've built many amps! They're all still going strong. Of course, they sound much better once they get out of my shop. Again, it must be the acoustics here! lol

Think about it!

Wild Bill/Busen Amps


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Mike, don't let Trinity's use of carbon comps stop you from buying one of their kits! From what I've seen and heard, they make a reasonably good product and stand behind it. As long as the overall price is acceptable I don't see how you can lose.
> 
> I would just be aware of what CAN happen! If your Plexi clone ever gets "hissy" you should know by now how to fix it!
> 
> ...



Well, I appreciate the kind words. I like the idea of "overbuilding" it with better tansformers, resistors, tubes et cetera.

It just sort of sucks when you can't find some little rinky tink component and the kit sort of solves that one.

I don't mind the cost of buying different resistors.......

Still on the fence.


----------



## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

Milkman said:


> Out of curiosity, why does Trinity amps specify carbon comp resistors for their 18 watt amps and amp kits?
> 
> http://www.trinityamps.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=950


 Here's yer' answer from the source.
I emailed Trinity and asked the question.........His reply.

"Doug,


Thanks for your email. 
Simply put , we use components consistent with the original vintage of the design. Our newer designs eg Triwatt and Tramp use them selectively in certain places only.
It would be cheaper to use modern components but we don't unless the design is newer. 


Cheers,


Stephen CohrsTrinity Amps Inc."



and another email a bit later..............

"I know there is a lot of chatter on the Internet about this subject. Carbon comp are a little noisier than others but in low wattage amps they are fine. 

Cheers,
Stephen CohrsTrinity Amps Inc."


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Ok, so my amp is back and the winner is . . . bad tube!

Ugh, what just about everyone said. The deal with the "bad tube socket" etc was due to language issues (he is french I am unilingual english). The tube is noisy but sometimes if you move it around in the socket the noise will go away (but it always comes back). The tube was also microphonic. I have never actually heard a tube do that when you tap on it.

Anyway, thanks to everyone here who helped me out, put up with my questions, and took the time to offer a bit of tube amp education. It was all truly appreciated and I am happy because I once again have my amp back and sounding amazing.

TG


----------

