# Preamp for K&K Pure Mini?



## Greg Ellis (Oct 1, 2007)

I've recently picked up a K&K Pure Mini to install in one of my Yamaha dreads.

I'm curious what sort of preamps people are using with these and whether that's working out well or not.

I have a BBE Acoustimax standing by, but I haven't tested it yet. I believe the input impedance is around 2M-ohm as opposed to the 1M-ohm output of the K&K, but maybe that is close enough for horseshoes and hand grenades.

Any feedback on preamps with the K&Ks?


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

I used to own a guitar with a K&K pickup and it came with the K&K preamp. I found it very harsh sounding.

I decided to use the ART MP Studio mike preamp and it sounded much warmer. It is also much cheaper than the K&K.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Red Eye preamp from Fire-Eye Development works very well with the K&K


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Red Eye here as well.


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## Gary787 (Aug 27, 2011)

I have the LR Element under saddle pick up with sound hole adjustment. It does the job. 

Element


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Gary787 said:


> I have the LR Element under saddle pick up with sound hole adjustment. It does the job.
> 
> Element


he has the pickup figured out, he's asking about a preamp


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## Gary787 (Aug 27, 2011)

vadsy said:


> he has the pickup figured out, he's asking about a preamp


Doh! Reading skills are lacking on Sunday.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

If you’re doing the install yourself a half inch step drill from CT makes a clean hole for the end pin just stick some masking tape on there when yer drilling so the finish don’t fragment. If you have a small vac cleaner with a narrow hose stick that against the end block while drilling and there won’t be any shavings to clean out. I’ve installed 4 of them no problem. Install one pad at a time like they say to and use a fresh set of latex gloves for each pad so that the glue don’t make a mess.


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## Greg Ellis (Oct 1, 2007)

rollingdam said:


> I decided to use the ART MP Studio mike preamp and it sounded much warmer. It is also much cheaper than the K&K.


I actually have a similar mic preamp kicking around unused - the Behringer Tube Ultragain MIC100. I looked up the input impedance and it's 1M. Thanks for the idea. I will definitely give that one a try too.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

I have this K&K with the recommended XLR...
Used Pure Classsic and Pure Western in fact.

I kind of remember reading the Baggs DI could help, but also read it could not...
As I did not try that, I have no clear idea about other preamp.

I even sometimes forget the preamp since my Behringer 1800FX clavier amp has a preamp.


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## Greg Ellis (Oct 1, 2007)

Wardo said:


> If you’re doing the install yourself a half inch step drill from CT makes a clean hole for the end pin just stick some masking tape on there when yer drilling so the finish don’t fragment..


Thanks, that's very helpful. 

How do you keep the guitars steady while you're drilling and gluing? 

Just pin them down with your elbows, or did you use some kind of clamps or straps to secure it to the workbench?


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Workbench is an ironing board ... lol

When drilling I just held on to it and the last two I had my left hand inside the sound hold as far as I could while pushing a small vac cleaner hose against the end block to get the drill shavings.

Green tape on the bridge is where I want the pads to line up under the saddle - one lines up with the high E and the other two line up between their respective strings E-A and D-G.

Before you start have a look inside with an inspection mirror at the bridge plate make sure there's no braces to get around - don't want to find out after you've glued it that the pad didn't get full contact because the wire was up against a brace.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

Greg Ellis said:


> I've recently picked up a K&K Pure Mini to install in one of my Yamaha dreads.
> 
> I'm curious what sort of preamps people are using with these and whether that's working out well or not.
> 
> ...


Can I add a second question to this thread? Why did you choose the K&K Pure Mini? 

I'm contemplating adding a p/u to my 12 string, and I had narrowed it down to the K&K PM, and the Fishman Infinity Matrix. I was leaning towards the Fishman.... it's more expensive, $220.00 at L&Mc, vs the K&K (shown above) at around $170.00, but the research I've done, the Fishman can handle louder volumes, bigger venues, and less sensitive to feedback. With all that, I kinda prefer the sound of the K&K. I also already own a K&K Pure XLR pre-amp. I bought it when I had a p/u installed into my resonator guitar. I can't for the life of me remember what Folkway installed. I _think_ it was from K&K, but not sure. It was definitely a transducer. It's attached to the inner cone. Sounds very, very true! I've not had it in many scenarios, but it hasn't caused any feedback, but I've only used it live once or twice, and it was a very small venue, with a very small crowd. 

Folkway isn't exactly "modern" with their record keeping, so I doubt they have it written down.... I've looked for the sales receipt, but so far, no luck. I'm guessing, if they "suggested" the K&K pre-amp, it was a K&K p/u. 

Just curious what your needs are, and why you landed on the K&K?


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## Greg Ellis (Oct 1, 2007)

SWLABR said:


> Can I add a second question to this thread? Why did you choose the K&K Pure Mini?


It's mostly just a chance to try something new.

I have a couple of guitars with under-saddle pickups already, and I'm really NOT a fan of that weird quacky nylon-ish sound that comes out of those. I'm willing to believe that some are better than others, but it seemed like the wrong direction, for me.

I'm accustomed to playing acoustic into a microphone, so I was searching for something that was as natural sounding as possible, on a budget that was reasonable for me. 

I've already got a couple of sound-hole magnetic pickups (Fishman Neo-D in both single coil and humbucker configs), and they're ok for what they are, but again not really the sound I was chasing.

The K&K gets rave reviews, people go on and on about how natural it sounds, so I figured why not?


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

K&K pickups are basically 3 piezo discs encapsulated in plastic-$170 seems high

Piezo Disc 7x0.5mm R Wire Leads 4.25 MHz


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

I WAS going to go K&K . but ended up with a cheap under the saddle pickup. Instead of a preamp I ended up getting a cheap rackmount Parametric EQ for $30. Since I would only really plug into my own sound system the size is not an issue.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

There is a "pre-phase" you may add to help feedback issue with K&K : a switch that invert the signal phase.
How efficient it is ? I do not know.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I tried a few too many acoustic pickups before finding the K&K which I would say is very reasonably priced for the sound quality it delivers. I will also say that even though I had great luck with the LR Baggs Para DI using other pickups it did not get along with the K&K and I found the Red-Eye to be much more friendly and responsive.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

We also have a great Canadian pickup company

http://www.schattendesign.com


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

rollingdam said:


> K&K pickups are basically 3 piezo discs encapsulated in plastic-$170 seems high
> 
> Piezo Disc 7x0.5mm R Wire Leads 4.25 MHz


Have you used these?


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

No, I just wanted to illustrate that the K&K and others of the same vein basically use the same piezo material in their pickups.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

rollingdam said:


> K&K pickups are basically 3 piezo discs encapsulated in plastic-$170 seems high
> 
> Piezo Disc 7x0.5mm R Wire Leads 4.25 MHz


Well, I am quite surprised... I mean as I do use dual K&K system (three little mic underbridge and piezzo undersaddle) on my Taylor 510, when I turn the mixing button of pre amp to alternatively hear each of the components, they really sound different : the undersaddle piezzo does not really sound acoustic, while the underbridge mics do.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

The placement of the piezo determines the tone-the K&K type are basically soundboard transducers -they sense the one in a different manner than an under saddle piezo. There are pros and cons to each type and it depends on the application for personal use or stage use.

Here is a great site for hearing different pickups:

Doug Young | Acoustic Guitarist | Pickup Tests


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## Greg Ellis (Oct 1, 2007)

rollingdam said:


> We also have a great Canadian pickup company
> 
> http://www.schattendesign.com


Have you tried the Shatten preamps with a K&K Pure Mini pickup system?


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

No however I have a Schatten Insider in my Larrivee and no preamp is needed.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

Greg Ellis said:


> It's mostly just a chance to try something new.
> 
> I have a couple of guitars with under-saddle pickups already, and I'm really NOT a fan of that weird quacky nylon-ish sound that comes out of those. I'm willing to believe that some are better than others, but it seemed like the wrong direction, for me.
> 
> ...


I get the "_NOT a fan of that weird quacky nylon-ish sound_", but I am afraid of the downside attached this (type of) p/u. I'm not playing along side a full band, competing with amps and drums, but like the head-room the Fishman offers. I never want to get into a situation where I've run out and the thing catches a frequency and takes off.
As I said, I _prefer_ the K&K, but I did also _like_ the Fishman. Not nearly as quacky as another guitar I own that came with it's own system built in. It was good then, and certainly still better than some I've heard, but it's losing it's appeal to my ears.

Do you play live? I am not 100% sold on the Fishman, so if I can get some of the worries settled, I may go with my first choice, the K&K.

**EDIT*** I've since learned, that "the K&K Pure Mini is prone to feedback at about 110htz". What's that in, I'm too dumb to figure out, and need a real world scenario?


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## Greg Ellis (Oct 1, 2007)

SWLABR said:


> Do you play live? I am not 100% sold on the Fishman, so if I can get some of the worries settled, I may go with my first choice, the K&K.


Most of the time I'm playing guitar into one mic and singing into a different one. In a low volume situation, with minimal interference from other sound sources, it's really the best sound you can get.

I have certainly tried playing acoustic in other scenarios - one being that crazy-high-stage-volume situation, where the whole top of my guitar is vibrating from the last note the bass player blasted through their 300watt SVT. There is no amount of twisting dials that's going to help me there. I use electric guitars for those situations now. It's not even worth bringing an acoustic.

This particular setup I'm working on (the K&K) is for moderate volume scenarios, like a Cafe or a small pub or my own living room or back yard, where I want to run the guitar through the PA, but we're not trying to reach rock concert volume. Mostly acoustic instruments, sometimes with drums and electric bass, but low-key and mellow, moderate stage volumes. I might need to pick up one of those sound hole plugs to help a bit with feedback, and a notch filter won't hurt either. But I'm not expecting howling feedback right from the get-go.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Sometimes I run my K&K guitars also with a mic dialed at maybe 25% in front of the guitar on a short boom attached to the mic stand that I use for vocal so adds a bit more acoustic sound to the K&K.

Also have this one which has a K&K as well as a De Armond sound hole pickup; run them both at the same time K&K into the Traynor and De Armond into the Fender. Both together put up a lot of sound. The green tape was just trying it out and now I've installed the second jack into the end block so two cables out of the guitar one to each amp. The De Armond is passive like the K&K so minimal crap inside the guitar.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

I was amazed first time I saw two jacks on the same acoustic guitar : I thought the guy was using a mic/pickup or another device for different purposes, but what Wardo does sounds very interesting to me.

It made me remember a trick I was once told : to give more presence to an instrument on a recording, you copy its track so you may double it (with different effects) at mixing.

Thanks guys for your valuable tricks !


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## Greg Ellis (Oct 1, 2007)

I opened up the endpin jack on the K&K the other day and noticed it is actually a TRS. There's a second channel available there with nothing connected to it. Might be handy down the road if I want to add a second source (like a soundhole magnetic pickup or an internal mic) and use a stereo cable. 

I agree 100% that blending more than one source gives a richer, fuller sound. When I'm playing at home, into the mics, I like to run them really hot and back away about 8-10", so the vocal mic is catching some of the "room" sound from the guitar, and the guitar mic is picking up a bit of the "room" sound of the vocals. This would never work on a noisy stage, but it sounds great in a quiet room.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Greg Ellis said:


> There's a second channel available there with nothing connected to it. Might be handy down the road if I want to add a second source (like a soundhole magnetic pickup or an internal mic) and use a stereo cable.


I think that might be for adding their internal mic if you didn't buy it first time round.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

A very good Journeymen music friend of mine had a Larrivee guitar that he played live. His was the only acoustic instrument in a band of electric guitars, basses, and a heavy handed drummer. He tried, tested, tried again to find a "true" acoustic sound and still compete with those other instruments. He did very well with a Pezio, and an internal sound-hole mic, blended them both into a pre-amp, then into an acoustic amp or PA depending on the venue. It took him years, and probably thousands of dollars worth of different ideas and setups, but it did sound great. The problem... as soon as that band broke up, he sold everything off, and started a band where he's exclusively an electric player. I don't know anyone who has had as much gear go through their hands as he has! He'll buy it out of need or curiosity, then sell it if he hasn't touched it in a while. Kinda like the experts who tell you how to thin out your closet... if you haven't worn it in a year, get rid of it! He's that way with gear. 

It's been a few years since he sold it off, so he's not exactly sure of the final configuration. As I said, he was less conscious of price, and more focused on tone. Not where I'm at.... I want the best sound I can within a certain budget. Some of the tips shared here are really going to help. 

Great thread, and tons of great info exchanged!


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## Greg Ellis (Oct 1, 2007)

I finally mounted the K&K in my guitar on Sunday. 

Wow, I'm glad I wasn't working on an expensive instrument first time out. There's a LOT that can go wrong in the installation procedure.

Everything worked out in the end, and the pickup sounds great. Obvious it's not EXACTLY like the natural sound of the guitar, but it's very close. 

I need to spend some more time tweaking EQ and such and AB'ing vs. the mic, but it's very encouraging so far. 

It's funny, I guess I'm used to moving the guitar around, relative to the mic, to control volume and tone on the fly, and obviously that doesn't work with a pickup. 

In some ways it's more like playing an electric guitar than an acoustic. Which is fine, it will just be a re-learning process.

Pretty happy with the pickup, gotta say.


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