# This is a wee bit unsettling....



## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

“There is a worldwide panic on availability of vacuum tubes”: EHX's Mike Matthews on the murky future of valve amps


EHX founder Mike Matthews has sounded an ominous warning about the present and future of amp tube production.




guitar.com


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## DavidP (Mar 7, 2006)

Hmm, just when I was planning to get a reserve quad of JJ 6V6s...


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

nonreverb said:


> “There is a worldwide panic on availability of vacuum tubes”: EHX's Mike Matthews on the murky future of valve amps
> 
> 
> EHX founder Mike Matthews has sounded an ominous warning about the present and future of amp tube production.
> ...


from the pictures of your stock we've seen, you have nothing to worry about 😎


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Lincoln said:


> from the pictures of your stock we've seen, you have nothing to worry about 😎


lol...provided I have it in my stock.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

It isn't just tubes, it's much of the industry. The supply chain issues are worldwide in all industries and have only been continuing to get worse since COVID started. COVID kicked it off but it isn't the cause of it, so it will only continue to get worse through into 2022. It's getting very messy out there.

Many factories are reserving priority for massive corporate orders. Meaning, WHEN you place the order doesn't matter. You get moved up in the queue based on how large your order is, not based on when you placed it. Some factories aren't accepting orders from smaller companies at all for the time being. Others are happily taking the orders (and the money), then they take 6-9 months to actually arrive because they're busy servicing companies with deeper pockets. Meanwhile, the small businesses and boutique builders needing those parts are left without any cash and without any product to build or sell in order to continue their operation.

I've had a few long conversations in the past few months from heart broken builders and small businesses really struggling with this stuff. A few have shut down their operation completely. It's really hurting some people/businesses.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

jbealsmusic said:


> It isn't just tubes, it's much of the industry. The supply chain issues are worldwide in all industries and have only been continuing to get worse since COVID started. COVID kicked it off but it isn't the cause of it, so it will only continue to get worse through into 2022. It's getting very messy out there.
> 
> Many factories are reserving priority for massive corporate orders. Meaning, WHEN you place the order doesn't matter. You get moved up in the queue based on how large your order is, not based on when you placed it. Some factories aren't accepting orders from smaller companies at all for the time being. Others are happily taking the orders (and the money), then they take 6-9 months to actually arrive because they're busy servicing companies with deeper pockets. Meanwhile, the small businesses and boutique builders needing those parts are left without any cash and without any product to build or sell in order to continue their operation.
> 
> I've had a few long conversations in the past few months from heart broken builders and small businesses really struggling with this stuff. A few have shut down their operation completely. It's really hurting some people/businesses.


One thing mentioned in this piece is the re-tooling of Shuguang for other products. If true, that will put more pressure on the existing tube manufacturers. Coupled with the supply chain issues brought about by COVID, it's a potentially serious problem.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

Back in the 80s I built a just-in-time tracking program for a small food company. Just-in-time was all the thing at the time -- saved warehousing costs mostly -- and apparently it still is, but it has the serious weakness that if one part of the supply chain gets behind, production grinds completely to a halt. It's a dangerously delicate system.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Doug Gifford said:


> Back in the 80s I built a just-in-time tracking program for a small food company. Just-in-time was all the thing at the time -- saved warehousing costs mostly -- and apparently it still is, but it has the serious weakness that if one part of the supply chain gets behind, production grinds completely to a halt. It's a dangerously delicate system.


Yes, JIT looks great on paper, but as you point out, that system presents risk and doesn't allow quick reactions / corrections, or at least the cost of those corrections can often offset the perceived benefits of JIT.

From the customer's perspective JIT sucks.

Similarly, the concept of returnable container schemes between suppliers and let's say for example, auto-makers also work better on paper. The concept is fine. The execution is terrible.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Could be a strategy to generate panic, I've seen this occur several times in the tech sector. It happened in 94 with computer memory ICs, usually a short term pulse.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Well this bit of info may have made up my mind for my next amp purchase. Was leaning towards another tube amp for my practice\backup. But now leaning back towards the tonemaster twin.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Paul Running said:


> Could be a strategy to generate panic, I've seen this occur several times in the tech sector. It happened in 94 with computer memory ICs, usually a short term pulse.


Although a possibility, I don't think that's the case here Paul. JJ tubes have been on backorder at The Tube Store for a considerable amount of time as well as other retailers and still are. No revenue at all for them is counter productive. These aren't big multinational companies that can afford to absorb significant losses. That said, are the prices of tubes going to go up? They already have. Will the potential loss of one of the major tube manufacturers drive the price up further? I suspect so.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Another example of supply chain issues. Last week I had my car in for new rear brakes. The passenger side caliper was ceased up and normally the mechanic would replace it. He went to order one and was told there are 50,000 on back order. So he greased and lubricated and got the caliper un ceased and said it would be ok. I guess it would have to be ok as I don't have much choice. So there may be more important worries than just tubes for our amps. 
We may be dragged kicking and screaming in to the digital amp age.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Didn't tube amps emerge around the same time we were given the rotary dial phone (early 1900's)?


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

Good thing I got rid of my tubes amps and went with Quilter for live use and a computer for practice and recording. The writing is on the wall. This may be a temporary shortage but even if it is, it will happen more and more. Prices of tubes will climb. You won't have as much choice. It is very old technology that is in the twilight of its life.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Kerry Brown said:


> Good thing I got rid of my tubes amps and went with Quilter for live use and a computer for practice and recording. The writing is on the wall. This may be a temporary shortage but even if it is, it will happen more and more. Prices of tubes will climb. You won't have as much choice. It is very old technology that is in the twilight of its life.



The reason for getting my 67 Pro Reverb was always just to have a decent vintage Fender sound and to use at home only for studio use. So I'll not be getting rid of it. I do have tubes to last for the next few years so maybe its a good time to stock up a little more if I can. But from here on in for live gigging use might be time for digital.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Kerry Brown said:


> Good thing I got rid of my tubes amps and went with Quilter for live use and a computer for practice and recording. The writing is on the wall. This may be a temporary shortage but even if it is, it will happen more and more. Prices of tubes will climb. You won't have as much choice. It is very old technology that is in the twilight of its life.


Unfortunately for the new stuff though, it's unserviceable. When it breaks, you throw it away.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

There are plenty of tubes around.
Just not the absolute cheapest brand for a short period of time until the supply catches up with last summers gear boom.. which incase you all haven’t noticed, is over.

Not to say that JJ’s aren’t amazing and fun tubes.. They are. Especially in boutique and modern hand wired amps upon which they are often built around.

Mullard and Tung Sol and even the tube stores house brand are all more than capable of filling the gap for the time being. Just don’t go “Covid toilet paper” over one factory closure in China.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

A group in Canada should get together and consider the possibility of manufacturing reliable vacuum tubes here. When I worked at Mitel, they had a semi-conductor division that was very profitable; with the shortages in semi-con devices that would be a consideration too.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Always12AM said:


> There are plenty of tubes around.
> Just not the absolute cheapest brand for a short period of time until the supply catches up with last summers gear boom.. which incase you all haven’t noticed, is over.
> 
> Not to say that JJ’s aren’t amazing and fun tubes.. They are. Especially in boutique and modern hand wired amps upon which they are often built around.
> ...


I don't think that's the case....Mullard, Tung Sol and Genalex, EH, Sovtek are all owned by New Sensor (Mike Matthews). There are ostensibly 3 manufacturers dedicating themselves to the guitar amp market. There are others such as PSVane and Emission Labs but they are low numbers, ultra high end tubes (Read: expensive) for audiophiles so we won't even consider them.
The loss of potentially 1/3 of the entire tube production will have lasting effects in the industry. Demand will still be the same as long as folks keep building tube amps.
As for The Tube Store's house brand, rumour has it that it's made at the Shuguang factory.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

nonreverb said:


> Unfortunately for the new stuff though, it's unserviceable. When it breaks, you throw it away.


My understanding is Quilter will fix their amps if you have a problem. As for the computer it is easy to transfer programs and data to a new computer. You can have the exact same tone duplicated on as many computers as you want. I think if you do some research many bands are all digital fir recording now. Even Lemmy used digital for some recording.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Paul Running said:


> A group in Canada should get together and consider the possibility of manufacturing reliable vacuum tubes here. When I worked at Mitel, they had a semi-conductor division that was very profitable; with the shortages in semi-con devices that would be a consideration too.


The very thing that was the final nail in the coffin of tube manufacturing in North America is still in effect today. Enviornmental regulations make it difficult to set up here. Also all the brain drain. You can't just tool up and make these things. It's been tried before with mixed to disappointing results. We are beholden to those who've been producing tubes uninterrupted for decades.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Kerry Brown said:


> My understanding is Quilter will fix their amps if you have a problem. As for the computer it is easy to transfer programs and data to a new computer. You can have the exact same tone duplicated on as many computers as you want. I think if you do some research many bands are all digital fir recording now. Even Lemmy used digital for some recording.


Fix it after the warranty runs out? I doubt it...I've seen the results of the newer class D amp failures. Mark Bass, Agular etc. No tech support at all but they'll sell you a replacement board at great cost. Failing that you'll be launching it into oblivion.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

nonreverb said:


> Fix it after the warranty runs out? I doubt it...I've seen the results of the newer class D amp failures. Mark Bass, Agular etc. No tech support at all but they'll sell you a replacement board at great cost. Failing that you'll be launching it into oblivion.



Maybe getting in to digital amps we'll have to change our way of thinking. Amp lasts 5 to 10 years then at that time you replace it with an amp thats better than what you had. Same philosophy as buying a computer. Don't think this is more expensive than owning a tube amp with the maintenance and tubes out of the way. Yes my Pro reverb will still be around in 50 years but I won't. If I bought a solid state\digital amp now and got at least 8 years out of it, likely I'd only have to replace it one more time as that would get me to about age 77. By that time I'm likely done with electric guitar. How many of us even keep gear for more than a few years. Most of us by the time we've owned an amp for 5 years we're ready for something new anyway.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Maybe getting in to digital amps we'll have to change our way of thinking. Amp lasts 5 to 10 years then at that time you replace it with an amp thats better than what you had. Same philosophy as buying a computer. Don't think this is more expensive than owning a tube amp with the maintenance and tubes out of the way. Yes my Pro reverb will still be around in 50 years but I won't. If I bought a solid state\digital amp now and got at least 8 years out of it, likely I'd only have to replace it one more time as that would get me to about age 77. By that time I'm likely done with electric guitar. How many of us even keep gear for more than a few years. Most of us by the time we've owned an amp for 5 years we're ready for something new anyway.


Sad that industry insists on perpetuating our throw away society. No sign of that coming to an end any time soon.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

nonreverb said:


> Sad that industry insists on perpetuating our throw away society. No sign of that coming to an end any time soon.


I agree this is a shame. There is the right to repair legislation being discussed in the US. Hopefully Canada will follow suit. In the case of Quilter they have eight authorized service centres in the US. Not sure about Canada. My understanding is you can ship direct to Quilter or any of their service depots for repairs. That is one of the reasons I went with a Quilter. Many tube amps now are full of PCBs with surface mount components. How easy are they to repair? I have always played tube amps and prefer tube amps. I saw the writing on the wall, my back was complaining about the weight, so I switched to newer technology. I have no regrets.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Kerry Brown said:


> I agree this is a shame. There is the right to repair legislation being discussed in the US. Hopefully Canada will follow suit. In the case of Quilter they have eight authorized service centres in the US. Not sure about Canada. My understanding is you can ship direct to Quilter or any of their service depots for repairs. That is one of the reasons I went with a Quilter. Many tube amps now are full of PCBs with surface mount components. How easy are they to repair? I have always played tube amps and prefer tube amps. I saw the writing on the wall, my back was complaining about the weight, so I switched to newer technology. I have no regrets.


Pure tube amps are still repairable even with circuit boards. That said, they can be more of a challenge.
To your point, there are a few hybrid tube/digital amps out there but these too are usually disposable. The Superchamp XT comes to mind.
In the higher end stuff, they do separate the digital board from the main analog electronics although if the digital goes down, you'd still be replacing the board.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

I wonder if there are any stats on tube amps still in use/circulation that are 20+ years old vs solid state or digital amps or similar age. I would presume the numbers are heavy in favour of tube amps, with most of the solid state and digital ones having gone to the landfills.

To my mind, serviceability isn't about cost savings. It's about reduction of needless waste. A vintage tube amp serviced every 5-10 years with the odd major repair along the way has generated almost no waste. Recycling may be nonsense for a lot of stuff, but reducing and reusing are still very valuable.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

jbealsmusic said:


> I wonder if there are any stats on tube amps still in use/circulation that are 20+ years old vs solid state or digital amps or similar age. I would presume the numbers are heavy in favour of tube amps, with most of the solid state and digital ones having gone to the landfills.
> 
> To my mind, serviceability isn't about cost savings. It's about reduction of needless waste. A vintage tube amp serviced every 5-10 years with the odd major repair along the way has generated almost no waste. Recycling may be nonsense for a lot of stuff, but reducing and reusing are still very valuable.


I see just as many if not more old Peavy solid state amps for sale as any other brand. Most older solid state amps were not great amps and/or beginner amps that were built very cheaply. You can’t compare apples to oranges. There is no reason a well designed, well made solid state amp won’t last for years. I’m not advocating people should switch. I’m just trying to dispel myths. I have a 1970’s high end Yamaha stereo receiver that has many hours at loud volumes on it. It has never been serviced. It still works as well as the day I got it. I get that digital circuits are harder to repair. I used to run two electronics repair shops.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I made a switch (and back and forth, truth be told) to digital guitar modelling a long time ago and never looked back.

The sound of a well maintained and dialed in tube amp is a thing of beauty. There's no denying that, but If you buy a modeler and it becomes obsolete in ten years (and mine seemed to have no problem reaching that age and beyond), what have you lost and what more impact to the environment have you had?

How big is a modeller in a landfill?

Add to that the reality of what happens to that pure tube tone by the time it reaches the audience. How many meters of cable?

I have some tube amps and they're great, but it's ok if they go away at some point. There are better ways to do things these days.

Just my opinion of course.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

nonreverb said:


> I don't think that's the case....Mullard, Tung Sol and Genalex, EH, Sovtek are all owned by New Sensor (Mike Matthews). There are ostensibly 3 manufacturers dedicating themselves to the guitar amp market. There are others such as PSVane and Emission Labs but they are low numbers, ultra high end tubes (Read: expensive) for audiophiles so we won't even consider them.
> The loss of potentially 1/3 of the entire tube production will have lasting effects in the industry. Demand will still be the same as long as folks keep building tube amps.
> As for The Tube Store's house brand, rumour has it that it's made at the Shuguang factory.


When the golden age of hoarding cheap things comes to an end, we will all be forced to put more thought and effort into the things that we own and hold manufacturers accountable through our buying patterns and we will all have less junk.

Children might have to actually go outside and talk to one another and use their imagination again. We may have to learn to love the few things that we do own and appreciate them for their intrinsic value. We may too be forced to do what people did when music was actually good and collaborate with others who have mastered one instrument and use our imagination to fill in the void that our mass produced pedal board once did.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Always12AM said:


> When the golden age of hoarding cheap things comes to an end, we will all be forced to put more thought and effort into the things that we own and hold manufacturers accountable through our buying patterns and we will all have less junk.
> 
> Children might have to actually go outside and talk to one another and use their imagination again. We may have to learn to love the few things that we do own and appreciate them for their intrinsic value. We may too be forced to do what people did when music was actually good and collaborate with others who have mastered one instrument and use our imagination to fill in the void that our mass produced pedal board once did.


I totally get what you're saying.......I'm also 57 years old.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

nonreverb said:


> I totally get what you're saying.......I'm also 57 years old.


I was born in ‘89, mostly raised by people born in 1934. I share a lot of ideals and beliefs with your generation.

I am lucky to have been close with my grandparents, I’m like a human time capsule. Making sure that the youth of today never forget how good beans on toast really is.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

Reading this, I wonder if a clever manufacturer could make a digital plug & play tube. Not that I'd buy one…


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Doug Gifford said:


> Reading this, I wonder if a clever manufacturer could make a digital plug & play tube. Not that I'd buy one…


They came pretty close with this...


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## Vincent Boissinot (Jun 3, 2017)

How about nutubes? Weren't those supposed to save the world?


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## Jim Jones (Sep 18, 2006)

Good Lord, if it comes to that I’ll just play an acoustic.



Kerry Brown said:


> My understanding is Quilter will fix their amps if you have a problem. As for the computer it is easy to transfer programs and data to a new computer. You can have the exact same tone duplicated on as many computers as you want. I think if you do some research many bands are all digital fir recording now. Even Lemmy used digital for some recording.


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## ook ook (Jun 3, 2021)

Vincent Boissinot said:


> How about nutubes? Weren't those supposed to save the world?


I was thinking about those the other day and I couldn't really find any new info on them. Maybe they just faded away


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## MarkM (May 23, 2019)

Always12AM said:


> I was born in ‘89, mostly raised by people born in 1934. I share a lot of ideals and beliefs with your generation.
> 
> I am lucky to have been close with my grandparents, I’m like a human time capsule. Making sure that the youth of today never forget how good beans on toast really is.


My oldest sons were born in 89, close to the same age as @nonreverb , parents in mid 70's and grandparents born in mid 20's. Spent agree at deal of time with my grandparents. Used to drive about 20 miles to town to get a tube for the TV with grampa so we could get the RCA fired back up. Nothing else went wrong with the B&W , then colour happened and it needed more tubes! Then the solid state amps came and the tubes dried up, cabinets got smaller, screens bigger. Now we have a 47" TV that is small compared to most and a 100+ channels of shit?

I hate TV but I really like beans and toast!

Things change, get over it! Lol


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

MarkM said:


> My oldest sons were born in 89, close to the same age as @nonreverb , parents in mid 70's and grandparents born in mid 20's. Spent agree at deal of time with my grandparents. Used to drive about 20 miles to town to get a tube for the TV with grampa so we could get the RCA fired back up. Nothing else went wrong with the B&W , then colour happened and it needed more tubes! Then the solid state amps came and the tubes dried up, cabinets got smaller, screens bigger. Now we have a 47" TV that is small compared to most and a 100+ channels of shit?
> 
> I hate TV but I really like beans and toast!
> 
> Things change, get over it! Lol


Maple and bacon heinz on rye bread.
That’s my personal preference.


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

jbealsmusic said:


> It isn't just tubes, it's much of the industry. The supply chain issues are worldwide in all industries and have only been continuing to get worse since COVID started. COVID kicked it off but it isn't the cause of it, so it will only continue to get worse through into 2022. It's getting very messy out there.



100% right, not only for the tubes


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Always12AM said:


> Making sure that the youth of today never forget* how good beans on toast really is*.


oh man, one of the few things I really miss on the keto diet.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> oh man, one of the few things I really miss on the keto diet.


Is it the beans or the bread?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Is it the beans or the bread?


The beans. I do have low carb bread that is 2 grams net carbs per slice.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> The beans. I do have low carb bread that is 2 grams net carbs per slice.


Wow, go figure. I was alway led to believe that beans were generally healthy.

I'm sure the canned beans loaded with processed sugars may not be so great, but jeez, no more red beans and rice? Chile?

Best of luck anyway. I hope it helps you.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Wow, go figure. I was alway led to believe that beans were generally healthy.
> 
> I'm sure the canned beans loaded with processed sugars may not be so great, but jeez, no more red beans and rice? Chile?
> 
> Best of luck anyway. I hope it helps you.


For keto, red beans, rice and chili are out. Although when I eventually do transition from Keto to low carb some of these will be allowed in limited quantities. However my relationship with processed sugars is over. Thanks to Stevia, monk fruit and certain sugar alcohols that part will be easier.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> For keto, red beans, rice and chili are out. Although when I eventually do transition from Keto to low carb some of these will be allowed in limited quantities. However my relationship with processed sugars is over. Thanks to Stevia, monk fruit and certain sugar alcohols that part will be easier.


Sugar is a bad one for sure. I'm borderline type 2 diabetic and that plus my heart history is not a great combo.

It's a work in progress.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

Milkman said:


> Sugar is a bad one for sure. I'm borderline type 2 diabetic and that plus my heart history is not a great combo.
> 
> It's a work in progress.


Kidney beans and black beans are good for heart health. Good source of natural fats and protein.

I would take full advantage of a nutritionist when dealing with diabetes. Diet goes a looong way and there is a lot of good food out there to be had.

I have to cut back on bread. Last year I started cutting back on red meat as well.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Always12AM said:


> Kidney beans and black beans are good for heart health. Good source of natural fats and protein.
> 
> I would take full advantage of a nutritionist when dealing with diabetes. Diet goes a looong way and there is a lot of good food out there to be had.
> 
> I have to cut back on bread. Last year I started cutting back on red meat as well.


About 5 months ago I started using a bread from Costco called "Carbnot" which is only 2 grams net per slice instead of the usual 20+ grams of regular whole wheat. But even that I limit to about 2 to 4 slices a week. I opt for lettuce wrapped sandwiches or this parmesan cheese wrap that I got from Costco also. Although there is many foods that I miss I've replaced them with other foods that I enjoy. On keto I never feel hungry or that I'm depriving my self. But I've pulled my self from the brink of diabetes, solved my torturous acid reflex problem and have dropped 41 pounds in 5 months. 199 pounds to 158.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

nonreverb said:


> You can't just tool up and make these things. It's been tried before with mixed to disappointing results. We are beholden to those who've been producing tubes uninterrupted for decades.


Absolutely. If anyone is following the 'Great British Valve Project' it's looking more and more like the 'Great British Pipe Dream'. 
I'm not giving up on Shuguang yet. If anyone is going to keep up tube production, I would think it will be China. If Shuguang stops, another Chinese company will probably buy up the gear and keep it going.
But this puts us in a bit of a bad spot, as it's fairly dependent on low wage labour, and poor environmental standards.



Kerry Brown said:


> I see just as many if not more old Peavy solid state amps for sale as any other brand. Most older solid state amps were not great amps and/or beginner amps that were built very cheaply. You can’t compare apples to oranges. There is no reason a well designed, well made solid state amp won’t last for years.


The SS amps you envision can not be mass produced and sold at prices comparable to the SS stuff currently available. To be competitive now they have to be non-serviceable (disposable) at least at the board level. I don't think you meant they would not be much more expensive, but it should be pointed out.
Still, solid-state components change so quickly now, the only way to guarantee a solid-state amp will last for years is to stockpile spare parts. And keeping them in circulation means lost sales, so that has to be built in to the price.


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## epis (Feb 25, 2012)

Who cares about Shuguang tubes ? It's just another manipulation to raise the prices.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

guitarman2 said:


> About 5 months ago I started using a bread from Costco called "Carbnot" which is only 2 grams net per slice instead of the usual 20+ grams of regular whole wheat. But even that I limit to about 2 to 4 slices a week. I opt for lettuce wrapped sandwiches or this parmesan cheese wrap that I got from Costco also. Although there is many foods that I miss I've replaced them with other foods that I enjoy. On keto I never feel hungry or that I'm depriving my self. But I've pulled my self from the brink of diabetes, solved my torturous acid reflex problem and have dropped 41 pounds in 5 months. 199 pounds to 158.


That’s good work!! I know it’s not easy to fight your way back from situations where your health isn’t optimal.

I have heard about WW and other low carb bread. I eat a lot of raisin bread. My love interest is Dominican so I eat really well. She lets me eat white people food once a week; Friday night baconator night. The first time I ever showed her Heinz baked beans, she snatched it from my hands and looked at the ingredients and launched it into the garbage. So now I just hide them in the basement lol. Anytime I make food she looks at me and says “that’s not food.. that’s a stroke waiting to happen”. I grew up on fry bread, kettle chips, pedaheh, hot dogs and honey, bacon and root beer. I ate steak every day for a year in 2020, got an echocardiogram and the doctor said that I had the heart of a Kangaroo.

NoI’m eating salmon and chicken and at the gym 5-7 nights a week. Unless I’m working outside all day lugging heavy shit all day in the sun.

I’m a solid 190lbs. I’d probably be 175lbs if my rig ever fell off lol.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

epis said:


> Who cares about Shuguang tubes ? It's just another manipulation to raise the prices.


Prices have risen anyway Damir. Potentially losing 1/3 total tube production will not only raise prices more but will cause supply issues as well. One may not care for Shuguang Co. but many amp companies still use their tubes. Once gone, they'll be be trying to source them from the two remaining companies like everyone else on the planet. Ei and Svetlana are not coming back so the world might have to rely on 2 companies to fulfill everyone's orders......
*jb welder *makes a good point though...There might be another comapny to take up where they left off....as for quality? Anyone's guess but I wouldn't be hopeful.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

nonreverb said:


> Prices have risen anyway Damir. Potentially losing 1/3 total tube production will not only raise prices more but will cause supply issues as well. One may not care for Shuguang Co. but many amp companies still use their tubes. Once gone, they'll be be trying to source them from the two remaining companies like everyone else on the planet. Ei and Svetlana are not coming back so the world might have to rely on 2 companies to fulfill everyone's orders......
> *jb welder *makes a good point though...There might be another comapny to take up where they left off....as for quality? Anyone's guess but I wouldn't be hopeful.


Just out of curiosity, I staged a little modern 12AX7 off last-night in the preamp section of a class A 5 watt amp.
For context, it’s a hand-wired amp with an NOS Phillips 5Y3 and a 60’s RCA Grey plate. Volume 3/10 tone midnight.

volume and tone remained the same throughout the entire experiment. Here is the list from favourite to least favourite:

_All tubes compared to a 1960’s RCA short plate: balanced, perfect amount of gain gentle dynamics. Thick low end, rich, sparkling treble.. there is something that just sounds better than most tubes happening in this thing_

1. Tung Sol Gold Pin: sounds a lot like the RCA, a bit too much gain. Flattering in a dark low powered circuit. Great articulation. 

2. modern Northern Electric: Absolute best sounding of the lot in all categories, very glassy tasteful presence on top of low, mid, Treb, no insane gain but nice punch. But at $60+ before tax, it shouldn’t rattle or sometimes not work. Which is the problem with it. Very nice sounding aside from these issues. $65+

3. Shaugang: I didn’t realize that the GT I had was actually a rebranded shaugang. It was almost as nice as the RCA. The low end was a bit juicer as a result of having too much gain, which isn’t a plus for me. But at $15, it’s actually a really nice sounding tube. $15

4. TAD 7025: a little less texture than the above, but nice glassy undertones, thick lows, dull mids and musical highs. I don’t like it that much though personally. Great for a reverb recovery or second gain stage. $50+

5. Regular Tung Sol: it’s right in the middle. Average. Nice sounding, but nothing shining tremendously when compared to the gold pin and the bite of the shaugang. At least it’s not prickly or too boomy. Nice safe bet. $28

6. JJ ECC83 S: if you like this, you probably like fat overwound pickups. Very punchy, musical but far too much gain for my taste. Takes away from the dynamics and articulation of individual notes and undermines the tone stack a bit. $34??

7. EH: exact same to me as the JJ, but a bit more prickly and a lot more gainy. Sounds really nice at louder volumes, but at low volumes, the highs undermine the sound. But during this little test. I wanted to keep the volume and tone the same. $no idea $21 I think 

I have to say that I’m eating my own words at the moment as I would have never assumed that the Shaugang would rank so highly in my mind. It’s not that it’s really “better” I think that I simply find others too gainy. I don’t find volume and gain helpful in any scenario in which I find myself.

Also, for the record I love JJ 6V6’s. 
My favourite modern 6V6 is the Mullard reissue.
Followed by the TAD. Don’t like the Tung Sol or EH’s at all.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

How high does the price of tubes have to climb before tube amps become impractical for _you_?

Naturally that will be determined by income to some extent, but it may become a real question at some point in the not too distant future.

$20 each?

$50 each?

Supply and demand sets the price, and no amount of shock or indignation will change that.

I'm not saying it's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's definitely a thing.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> How high does the price of tubes have to climb before tube amps become impractical for _you_?


I think that if current production tubes became as expensive as what NOS tubes are now might be enough to make me only gig with solid state\digital amps. I would still keep my vintage fender amp and although I do have a fresh set of tubes in it and a fresh set set aside, I'd likely buy a third set and only use it sparingly, for recording and occasionally playing through it for fun. I would hope that having 3 sets would get me through the rest of my life.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Always12AM said:


> Just out of curiosity, I staged a little modern 12AX7 off last-night in the preamp section of a class A 5 watt amp.
> For context, it’s a hand-wired amp with an NOS Phillips 5Y3 and a 60’s RCA Grey plate. Volume 3/10 tone midnight.
> 
> volume and tone remained the same throughout the entire experiment. Here is the list from favourite to least favourite:
> ...



My #1 requirement for tubes is reliability. I really don't hear a lot of difference from one tube to another. Admittedly though I have never really done a lot of tube rolling and comparisons. As long as my tube amp works I pay more attention to the voice of each amp I use.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

We wouldn't require so many tubes if we lowered our expectation to there performance; operating them beyond their capabilities shortens their life...there are other methods to obtain that tone without redlining your tubes.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Reliability pretty much trumps everything else in my mind. Servicing tube amps gives me a more practical perspective on the industry. I agree with Paul Running. That said, there are many vintage amps out there like HiWatts for instance, that have high plate voltages which inevitably stress new production power tubes. They do for two reasons: One, the wall voltages are higher than they were 45 years ago by about 8%. That's not insignificant on the B+ voltage. Two: The plate voltages in some of these older amps were higher to get the most out of a set of tubes. Tubes at that time that were mass produced and in most cases, spec'd better than what's being offered today.
One easy example I see that comes across my bench is the SVT Classic. 630/640 VDC at the plates is at the limit of what most 6550's will handle. Pair that with the first iterations of these having woefully small value screens and you see the inevitable incineration of new production power tubes.....same with Leslie amps. The old Tung Sol's would happily hum along for decades in those amps. Replace them with a set of EH's or JJ's and pray they don't go south within a year.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

@Paul Running @nonreverb 

Would you say that modern handwired amps built for modern wall voltage and biased accordingly may actually be better on vintage tubes than vintage amps?


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Always12AM said:


> @Paul Running @nonreverb
> 
> Would you say that modern handwired amps built for modern wall voltage and biased accordingly may actually be better on vintage tubes than vintage amps?


Strictly from the standpoint of expected results based on circuit design, I would say yes.
That said, there's no hard rule where vintage amps are concerned. Lower power amps benefit from tube rectifiers which lowers the plate voltage plus, there is usually a significant amount of component drift that can affect the overall circuit.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

I always have to remind


nonreverb said:


> Strictly from the standpoint of expected results based on circuit design, I would say yes.
> That said, there's no hard rule where vintage amps are concerned. Lower power amps benefit from tube rectifiers which lowers the plate voltage plus, there is usually a significant amount of component drift that can affect the overall circuit.


I was wondering because if vintage amps were designed around 111-115V’s and they are running vintage tubes into modern wall voltages. One would think that they are being aggravated by that.

So in turn, I would think that a modern handwired amp built around current voltages might actually be a nice relief for vintages tubes.

I am limited in the math and language associated with circuitry. But I have seen examples of components values drifting especially in older amps.

I’ve found old tubes in Radios and old amps that are 60-75 years old and they work like a charm. The school of thought that I’m in right now is that I never trust the cheapest of anything. I always assume that cheap is cheap for a reason. I wouldn’t suggest to anyone that they retube all of their amps with NOS arbitrarily. But I do think it’s cool to have some vintage rectifiers and reverb drivers or V1’s from time to time. I think their value is justified in their reliability.

I find this conversation and these posts and thinking points interesting. I think you are correct that the supply being shortened will have an impact on the market. I don’t see how a tung sol 12AX7 would become more expensive simply because their manufacturer is making more money off of having a monopoly on the market. I don’t think the tube store is going to enter bidding wars for them. Perhaps, some people will bid over remaining JJ stock. I wouldn’t suggest that. But definitely a company like Fender would have to make some changes in their OEM choices, but I don’t think it would have an insane impact on their retail prices and if anything, they would sound better. What do you think?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

People know rack gear from the 80s is still kicking, right? 40 years old sooner rather than later.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

The latest R&D in DSP guitar amps has become very flexible to the user. The equipment has the computing power to emulate many circuits. With skilled hardware and software people, there is no limit to their accomplishments. When these people work together with the audio experts they should be able to produce any sound.
The other day, I downloaded the firmware for the Fender Tonemaster. After extracting it (a EXT4 file), I realised the complexity of the firmware. The files now are much larger, with a lot going on inside...much like the way the video games evolved, very realistic now...I believe the technology has advanced enough to produce very high-performance devices, with only your imagination presenting the limits.
It's difficult to predict the future of small tubes, my gut feel is that eventually they will become a hobbyists' commodity.
I do sense an increased acceptance to the DSP sector. As more coders gain knowledge of audio technology, there will be very accurate emulations produced in this field.


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## epis (Feb 25, 2012)

I see what you're about.
My personal experience with digital shows me it's not to emulate 100% analog technologies. 
It's to get close to it with cheaper and faster production.
Just think about audio CDs,are they perfect replacements for vinyl ? I don't think so.
I'm working in dental field and I'm seeing it every day, is it good enough ? Yes it is. Is it same as analog work done by qualified techs ? No, it's not.
To have it 100% there would involve a lots of work and most likely wouldn't be cost effective. 
For now.
What future is bringing?
I do not know.
Cheers, Damir


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

@Paul Running i'd say tubes have been a hobbyist commodity for a little while.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Old technology is slowly on it's way out. Those of us coasting through the tube biz. are here really because of the long legacy of tube products over the last 60 or so years. There will always be "some" tube amps out there but as with the auto industry, time and technological innovation such as electric vehicles marches on and will replace gas engines. My hope is that the tube industry is viable enough to allow me and my fellow techs to retire before it disappears.....At my age, I think I'm safe.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I see what you mean @nonreverb . I just went to order some GZ34's and found everything is on back-order except $40 Mullards


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

I have a big enough selection of tubes on hand (including a few sets of matched NOS RCA Black Plates, Mullards and Sovteks as well as a significant collection of newer tubes) that I'm pretty much set for life but thanks for the heads up just the same. I saw the writing on the wall a few years ago when prices were going up and made some investments in the future for a rainy day. Maybe that rainy day has come I guess, seeing this development. It's good to see that my foresight might pay off sooner than expected.

And no, none of them are for sale in case you were wondering.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

well, tube troubles are not over yet. I just tried to order some 12AT7's, couldn't find any. I was still able to 12AX7's, but not the ones I normally use. 

Times are tough.


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

My tube drawer hasn't been drawn on in awhile, possibly soon for a few remaining builds. How many 12AT7's do you need Lincoln? Shoot me a PM if you'd like.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

WCGill said:


> My tube drawer hasn't been drawn on in awhile, possibly soon for a few remaining builds. How many 12AT7's do you need Lincoln? Shoot me a PM if you'd like.
> 
> View attachment 399896
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for the offer, I'll keep that in mind should the "used" ones I found on eBay not work out in my favor.  

Quite the stock of tubes you've got there. 😋


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

Nothing lasts in a Fender reverb driver position like a JAN 12AT7. Most of my last few builds were more Brit oriented, so not much call for the AT's. Before we moved to BC I sold about 2,000 misc. tubes I had accumulated over the years, mostly oddball, some rare. I haven't ordered in about 5 yrs, not doing repairs anymore, but still have a few brainstorms, now that I've mostly got my brain back.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

Lincoln said:


> well, tube troubles are not over yet. I just tried to order some 12AT7's, couldn't find any. I was still able to 12AX7's, but not the ones I normally use.
> 
> Times are tough.


Where were you shopping?


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## 2N1305 (Nov 2, 2009)

nonreverb said:


> Sad that industry insists on perpetuating our throw away society. No sign of that coming to an end any time soon.


So True... It's engrained, embedded, woven into society. Except a handful of us who keep and maintain stuff.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

There is/was The Great British Valve Project in the UK who bought up the old Mullard and Brimar machinery from the old EI factory in the former Yugoslavia. I haven’t heard any hews on their progress lately. Hope they get it off the ground.

https://brimaruk.com/menugbvp/about-the-gbvp/


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Hammerhands said:


> Where were you shopping?


 Antique Electronics/Tubes & More


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

Why don't you get a wholesale account with CE? They're not cheaper than everything on AES, but mostly.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

WCGill said:


> Why don't you get a wholesale account with CE? They're not cheaper than everything on AES, but mostly.


Not sure what CE is 😟


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## epis (Feb 25, 2012)

Lincoln said:


> Not sure what CE is 😟


CE Distribution, for registered business only


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Lincoln said:


> Not sure what CE is 😟


There might be some tech articles you may be interested in:




__





Tech Articles | CE Distribution







www.cedist.com





Their consumer site:





Antique Electronic Supply


All the parts you need to modify, repair, or build guitars, guitar amplifiers, antique radios and more




www.tubesandmore.com


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Paul Running said:


> There might be some tech articles you may be interested in:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did not know about CE Dist. I wonder if they will take into account the amount of money I've spent at AES when they look at giving me an account? 😋


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## dtsaudio (Apr 15, 2009)

If you have a business licence you can open an account. Shipping is slow and expensive, but they do have a good selection of amp parts.
Why are you buying AES (the land of no stock). There are far better sellers including The Tubestore here in Hamilton, Tube Depot, Vintage Tube Services to name a few.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

dtsaudio said:


> If you have a business licence you can open an account. Shipping is slow and expensive, but they do have a good selection of amp parts.
> Why are you buying AES (the land of no stock). There are far better sellers including The Tubestore here in Hamilton, Tube Depot, Vintage Tube Services to name a few.


I have a business licence, but not for anything electronics related.
I've got sign-ins for both the Tube Store & Tube Depot. I didn't realize they were Canadian, or I probably be dealing with them. AES hasn't really let me down until now. I've been buying everything there that I can't get from Next Gen or places like Digikey/Element. 

I scored some really nice NOS 6201's to solve my 12AT7 shortage. (Canadian source)


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

I think if you have a GST# you're good.


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## epis (Feb 25, 2012)

Lincoln said:


> I have a business licence, but not for anything electronics related.
> I've got sign-ins for both the Tube Store & Tube Depot. I didn't realize they were Canadian, or I probably be dealing with them. AES hasn't really let me down until now. I've been buying everything there that I can't get from Next Gen or places like Digikey/Element.
> 
> I scored some really nice NOS 6201's to solve my 12AT7 shortage. (Canadian source)


CE distribution is same company as amplified parts or AES (tubes and more). I was thinking to apply for an account at CE long time ago, but lower prices weren't low enough to beat free us shipping from amplified parts and cross border pickup.


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