# How Many "Bricks and Mortar" Stores Will Fail?



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I've long been of the opinion that there is value in supporting local businesses, and in the context of this topic, I see merit in supporting physical stores.

Lately however, it really seems like the internet based sellers of many items are handing the bricks and mortar stores their lunch.

If I walk into the local guitar shop or for that matter, the local hardware store and ask for a relatively common item and I'm told they have no stock, but they can order it for me.......

Well, I consider that a fail.

Why would I wait a week or two to get something I can have delivered to my door the next day in many cases?

That happens with surprising regularity these days.

I realize that Covid-19 is impacting this (and pretty much every element of our lives), but Amazon and other internet sellers also have Covid to deal with and it doesn't seem to be crippling them.

Are we heading toward a society with very few physical stores?

It's not what I want, but it feels like that's what is happening.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Like you, I try to support local stores as well, and yes, some of them deserve to fail.

My hope is that the failures will create room for some local entrepreneurs to fill the gap. My fear is that Amazon will one day employ everyone who is lucky enough to have a job. I suspect that we will land somewhere in the middle.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

bw66 said:


> Like you, I try to support local stores as well, and yes, some of them deserve to fail.
> 
> My hope is that the failures will create room for some local entrepreneurs to fill the gap. My fear is that Amazon will one day employ everyone who is lucky enough to have a job. I suspect that we will land somewhere in the middle.



It just seems like more and more, I drive across town to pick up something very common and waste my gas and time because they don't have basic items on the shelf.

That's the deal. You take on the cost and work associated with maintaining some inventory and I'm willing to pay a little more for that service.

These days it's like they want their cake and eat it too. (I pay for the overhead and profit but gain nothing).


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Good observations there.

Some stores have been suffering a slow decline towards death for years. Many of them, as you pointed out, because of customer service, or lack thereof. The pandemic may just be a blessing in disguise and merciful in the respect that they will finally come to their conclusion. 

It's too bad that some places will also be culled that are still good places that some people like. Same shame that cheap overseas goods can be flooding the market through huge entities like Amazon who, while providing jobs, they are not great jobs with a lot of pride involved. Jeff Bezos proudly announced a couple of years ago that he was raising employee wages to the point they would no longer require food stamps to live....and that statement was just a little sad to me. Amazon just doesn't give a shit, their size makes them able to have that attitude.

I like to shop local when and if I can. Even if it is a locally owned franchise. Our Home Hardware has been in the same family for over 100 years and 5 generations of the same family. Great people, friendly, and go out of their way to help you. But still, there are others who refuse to compete and take that "shop local" ideal for granted and give poor service and won't even try to compete. They seem to think the locals owe them loyalty and gouge accordingly. 

I would like to see some things go back to an earlier model where towns have local artisans plying their trade and selling their wares. I would be willing to pay slightly more to the local smith for knobs and handles and hardware. I like buying wood from local independant sawyers. I still pay a bit of a premium for local produce. I prefer local tradespeople and crafters. I am not bound by those feelings though. I have a budget.

A lot of consumer goods these days are dependant of some sort of printed circuit board and/or mass production, so in those areas, the goods are not realistically produced or sold locally. Like the 12V to USB charger I just got for the truck from Walmart.

I think things are in a state of flux right now, maybe more noticable because of the pandemic speeding things along and making it more obvious in some areas. Some will adapt, some will lead the way, others will fall by the wayside.....same as it ever was.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Like I said, it's not what I want, but....


I have on numerous occasions, made purchases at my local music shop that I could have made in Toronto or elsewhere for a bit less, but that store was ALWAYS there when I needed them and I have a relationship with them going back decades.

I value that but the times, they are a changin


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## brokentoes (Jun 29, 2014)

Well the market will always decide what will sell and what wont. Who will survive and who wont. If you have a physical store but no website or ways for people to buy from you online in most cases i would think you are doomed. 

Now i cant imagine paying $10,000 for a nice Gibson Les Paul.. Hell i cant even imagine paying $2000 for a new Gibson Les Paul Studio. That doesnt mean there isnt people lined up to buy them. 

One thing is for certain... We have entered a new phase of living, i dont see things going back to the old status quo.


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## DaddyDog (Apr 21, 2017)

Milkman said:


> Are we heading toward a society with very few physical stores?


The giant shopping malls around the GTHA seem to indicate the answer is no. Square One and the surrounding block(s) has become a city unto itself. One that I avoid but that's another discussion.

I totally agree with your frustration of the local shop not having a common item. My online shopping has definitely been on the rise for the past few years. But I still believe in buying locally when I can: groceries at a farmer's market, craft breweries, amps, guitars, and pedals.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

In my perfect world, we would live among small businesses that know you, recognize you when you walk in, and have what you want in stock for a decent price. And where possible, it would have been produced locally.

Okay, dream over.

As much as sprawling giants like Amazon, Alibaba, Banggood and similar, and retail juggernauts like Wal-Mart have ripped the throats out of every retailer in their path like a werewolf on PCP, we would be remiss if we didn't also acknowledge that there are a lot of smaller and even medium-sized businesses that started out with a shitty business plan, or at least began with a decent one but failed to adapt, or else felt their business plan was SO brilliant that they could expand forever. That's precisely where Eaton's, Sears, Woolco, Zellers, K-Mart, and others went, and also where many small bricks-and-mortar stores went as well. 

In some cases, it is the stubbornness and greed of the property-owners, who are charging the sort of rents that small businesses simply can't afford at the moment. Where a mall might have had a large anchor store, they now have a huge vacant chunk of their property that has to be redeveloped and in the meantime makes for an eyesore and can present parking difficulties for those willing to overlook the disruption and ugliness.. Perhaps the property-owners themselves might be accused of having a shitty business plan, that necessitates bailing themselves out by gouging tenants. One might also even accuse the providers of business loans of having a shitty business plan by not insisting on bulletproof business-plans from the folks they loan money to.

I find the most desirable places to live in almost any city are those where there is a surfeit of small properties that can be used for the small independent businesses I described earlier. I know one of the things that makes Halifax so livable is how much of that small commercial real estate exists. It's what makes Bloor and Queen Streets in Toronto so great, St. Laurent in Montreal, and much of Bank St. and Wellington in Ottawa, Ottawa St. in Hamilton, and Whyte Ave. in Edmonton, so nice. There will always be places and startups with bad business plans, but small commercial real-estate often gives them a fighting chance.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Milkman said:


> It just seems like more and more, I drive across town to pick up something very common and waste my gas and time because they don't have basic items on the shelf.
> 
> That's the deal. You take on the cost and work associated with maintaining some inventory and I'm willing to pay a little more for that service.
> 
> These days it's like they want their cake and eat it too. (I pay for the overhead and profit but gain nothing).


Amen. And I've noticed in recent years this applies to the LARGE retailers too. Used to be I could go into Zellers and probably find the thing I need. Now you go to many of these stores and there's empty holes all over their shelves. Out of stock or they don't stock them. Wal-Mart has gotten really bad for this. Within the last year I actually came across the store's assistant manager and I complained about all the empty shelves in her store. She straight up told me they're frustrated as well because the company has dedicated almost all their logistics to the grocery section. 

I go into Home Depot to buy a power tool that's less than $100 and now they have them all locked up on the shelf behind a cage. So I have to hunt down a staff member, who has to call another staff member with the key, and then I have to wait 15 minutes for that person to come unlock the thing, and then they won't just hand me the tool they have to escort me to the cashier with it. If the shopping experience is going to be that much of a pain in the ass then next time I'm just going to order it online.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Once it's gone it doesn't come back.

Recently I wanted to buy a particular cd (yeah - old school) and discovered that there are no stores around that sell cd's. My choices are Walmart bricks and mortar(who didn't have it) and Amazon.

Manufacturing is a big one - try to find a Canadian-made washing machine, a TV set, shoes, or most recently PPE?

Once it's gone ......................


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## Jim9guitars (Feb 15, 2016)

My observation has been that a lot of music stores in general have much of their stock listed at various online venues such as Reverb and Amazon. I have heard directly from one local store owner that the only thing that got him through the last lockdown was online sales. He did also offer a curbside pickup for local customers who prearranged their purchase online or by phone. He stressed that not being able to conduct onsite music lessons was hurting a lot.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

My original post in this thread wasn't targeted at music stores, but I definitely have observed that lack of basic inventory at play there.

No, it was my fruitless visits to Lowes, Home Depot, Home Hardware, and other similar places.

Music stores are specialty shops. It might be easier to make an argument that inventory is tricky in such an environment, but basic tools or hardware needs to be on the shelf as much as possible in applicable stores.

It would be different if the items I was seeking were rare, but that's the rub. I can get what I want on the web almost every time.

Maybe that's just the way things will be.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

allthumbs56 said:


> Once it's gone it doesn't come back. Recently I wanted to buy a particular cd (yeah - old school) and discovered that there are no stores around that sell cd's. My choices are Walmart bricks and mortar(who didn't have it) and Amazon. Manufacturing is a big one - try to find a Canadian-made washing machine, a TV set, shoes, or most recently PPE? Once it's gone ......................


+1.
heres a challenge...try to name all the things your household has bought recently that was made in Canada and WASNT food. Its not easy.
Not to turn things political, but thats why I laugh when I hear ppl say things like "Trump started a trade war with china!"...Started? We lost that war and got slaughtered years ago. we've just learned to accept our trade imbalance/oppression due to our current relative economic wealth in spite of it...and noone can resist a bargain.

I generally dont mind shopping...and theres some things I prefer/insist on B&M. I will never buy shoes online, for example.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Other than cement, it's probably a short list.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I read, on hi-fi sites, people wanting recommendations on what speakers to buy. Speakers are the most 'personal' of all components in a system (besides the playing material, I suppose) and can't be selected by committee. You have to experience them in the room and not over your computer speakers and youtube.

And yet, people really want to buy something like good hi-fi speakers without experiencing them. When told to go audition, they say there aren't any hi-fi shops to listen to speakers anymore. Then they say that's not really a problem, they don't actually need a store because they were gonna order the speaker on-line anyways. They don't see themselves as the author of their own problems. I suspect that's where a lot of businesses are going.

"You don't know what you've got till it's gone....."


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Diablo said:


> +1.
> heres a challenge...try to name all the things your household has bought recently that was made in Canada and WASNT food. Its not easy.
> Not to turn things political, but thats why I laugh when I hear ppl say things like "Trump started a trade war with china!"...Started? We lost that war and got slaughtered years ago. we've just learned to accept our trade imbalance/oppression due to our current relative economic wealth in spite of it...and noone can resist a bargain.
> 
> I generally dont mind shopping...and theres some things I prefer/insist on B&M. I will never buy shoes online, for example.


We've been in the market for a new sofa and wanted very much to buy Made In Canada. Sadly we gave up and this past Friday purchased a Made In China. 😢


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

allthumbs56 said:


> try to find a Canadian-made washing machine,


Shopping for one of those myself. Pretty much decided on an LG from Home Depot. On the page it says "Country of origin - Canada". How true that is, I don't know, but it's a start.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Shopping for one of those myself. Pretty much decided on an LG from Home Depot. On the page it says "Country of origin - Canada". How true that is, I don't know, but it's a start.


Looks like the world is turning .....................

_"Most LG refrigerators are made in South Korea and some in China. But with the construction of their massive factory in Clarksville, Tennessee, the brand will have most of its appliances for the US market produced in North America. "_​​








LG vs Samsung Refrigerators Review (2020) - Best Models & More


LG and Samsung refrigerators are two top brands with an excellent selection of models. Both brands offer almost identical products in design and functionality, making them classic rivals. So, we understand why you may find it hard deciding which brand is best for your kitchen. That’s precisely...




blog.designerappliances.com




.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> I read, on hi-fi sites, people wanting recommendations on what speakers to buy. Speakers are the most 'personal' of all components in a system (besides the playing material, I suppose) and can't be selected by committee. You have to experience them in the room and not over your computer speakers and youtube.
> 
> And yet, people really want to buy something like good hi-fi speakers without experiencing them. When told to go audition, they say there aren't any hi-fi shops to listen to speakers anymore. Then they say that's not really a problem, they don't actually need a store because they were gonna order the speaker on-line anyways. They don't see themselves as the author of their own problems. I suspect that's where a lot of businesses are going.
> 
> "You don't know what you've got till it's gone....."


I think reviews play a big part in purchases these days...so much so that the personal experience doesnt mean as much...we'll just take someone elses word for it 
I know they count for a lot with me....but I have been led astray a few times.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Milkman said:


> My original post in this thread wasn't targeted at music stores, but I definitely have observed that lack of basic inventory at play there.
> 
> No, it was my fruitless visits to Lowes, Home Depot, Home Hardware, and other similar places.
> 
> ...


But that's somewhat related to my comment about shitty business plans. If a store purports to carry everything, then they have two choices: they can invest TONS of money in inventory, so that one can actually select from "everything" when you walk into the store, or they can go just-in-time and order the stuff. But as was pointed out regarding loudspeakers, there are some things one doesn't mind ordering on-line and picking up at the bricks-and-mortar location or on the doorstep, and other things you need to try out in person in order to make a choice. As much as few retailers could survive for long if they attempted to have a huge selection and everything was in stock at all times, it's not exactly much of a business plan if you have to devote so much effort and resources to bringing things in for people to try out, only to have those customers say "Nah, not really what I wanted".

One of the things that signalled the death knell of department stores was that we expect to be able to choose from EVERYTHING on the spot, and no store can manage that sort of inventory and still survive. The rise of niche on-line stores has widened our expectations of what we have to choose from and _should_ have to choose from. Any bricks-and-mortar place that tries to distinguish itself in that crowd better have goods that _nobody_ else has, or else stock _everything_ that everybody else has.

It would not surprise me in the slightest if IKEA began to experience difficulties in the next few years. Sure, they're inexpensive and they always manage to figure out ways to package stuff concisely, and are careful to space their stores far apart in order to make them "destination" places for shopping. But their catalog keeps expanding, enough that one can often wait a while for a shipment of item X to_ finally_ arrive. At some point, they're going to become too expansive for their own good, and shut down or hive off some component of their business/catalog.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> We've been in the market for a new sofa and wanted very much to buy Made In Canada. Sadly we gave up and this past Friday purchased a Made In China. 😢


What? There's a Pallister furniture plan here in Winnipeg. They make all kinds of couches here.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

mhammer said:


> like a werewolf on PCP


The stuff you come up with. Luv it.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Jim9guitars said:


> My observation has been that a lot of music stores in general have much of their stock listed at various online venues such as Reverb and Amazon. I have heard directly from one local store owner that the only thing that got him through the last lockdown was online sales. He did also offer a curbside pickup for local customers who prearranged their purchase online or by phone. He stressed that not being able to conduct onsite music lessons was hurting a lot.


One thing I discovered a few months ago is something I call "the Reverb loophole". If you find a Canadian music retailer with an online web store, look to see if they also have a Reverb store. Reverb only charges the GST on purchases. So in many provinces you can get away with skipping the PST if you buy on Reverb. (Sorry to those folks who live in an HST province.)


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

The time of local businesses that valued customer loyalty is long over. My wife and I went to Leons on the weekend to buy the matching recliner to a leather sofa we bought a couple months previously. Infact over the past 5 years we've probably spent $25-30k in furniture and appliances at Leons. My wife was under the impression that we'd get some great deal based on the fact that we've given them so much business. I told her "They don't care"". It doesn't matter if we spent a million there they could care less. Even buying from the smaller "Mom and Pop shops", you're only as good as the current purchase you want to make. The same with music stores. I've saved thousands buying my high end guitars from the US. One example my Martin D-28 Authentic 1941 cost me $6,800 Canadian right to me door all in taxes, shipping, brokerage, etc. To buy the same guitar in Canada I couldn't get a dealer any lower than $11,000. My last US purchase a new 52 custom shop Tele only cost a few bucks more than what I could find the same guitar in Canada for a used one.
Not every good online retailer is in the US. We have some good ones here. electric Mojo is one. But between the Online retailers in the US and Canada there isn't much reason to shop locally.
Even strings, I'm better off ordering from strings and beyond. Although I sometimes buy strings locally.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> What? There's a Pallister furniture plan here in Winnipeg. They make all kinds of couches here.


Certainly there is and we continue to purchase as much made in Canada as we can. However, our needs were very specific this time. We have been looking for over a year and even this new one had to be ordered - we're told mid-November delivery.


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## Fred Gifford (Sep 2, 2019)

the way things are going it looks like 90% of stores are doomed .. walked through the Eaton's Centre lately ??? the word Ghost Town comes to mind ...


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Fred Gifford said:


> the way things are going it looks like 90% of stores are doomed .. walked through the Eaton's Centre lately ??? the word Ghost Town comes to mind ...


We've become more vigilant in "gift card management"...make sure you spend them before the retailer goes bankrupt....once those signs go up in the stores, they often refuse to accept them (happened to us with Bowring a year or so ago).


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## Todd MacCulloch (Mar 8, 2018)

allthumbs56 said:


> We've been in the market for a new sofa and wanted very much to buy Made In Canada. Sadly we gave up and this past Friday purchased a Made In China. 😢


 We were lucky enough to be able try and wait for Palliser - but that was last year ...


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Well, I see two things.
Some were mean and they do not deserve survival.
In our area, one centennial family store should survive, while another affiliated to a chain would probably do so. I fear a local group whom opened a third store last year could be in trouble.
I have been told local dealers decided to stop paying the makers : Big domino effect to come as everyone push his problem up the chain as bankers may not help enough !

Now, be it at grocery store or at music store, stocks are generally low everywhere because COVID slowed delivery processes : A friend of mine had to fetch wood at three different locations to get enough to build his patio.

Well, in the meanwhile, as golf is quite ending, I can just play my guitars...


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Amazon really struggled too during covid. It was their chance to shine and the wheels fell right off the machine. 

I deal with local and Canadian based companies when ever possible. Sometimes, you just can't.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

FYI, my wife works for one of the large food manufacturers, and sees sales data from most of the big retailers on a weekly basis. last week was the biggest in terms of sales since the big run on stuff for the pandemic, in the spring.
some of that may be back to school related, but they also saw a huge spike in things like toilet paper....so the recent news about covid cases and fear of wave 2 may be sparking the hoarders again.

heres a handy site (albeit not 100% accurate) for checking inventory of local stores for items you may be in need of, before you leave the house. I used it to find Lysol wipes, for example.








StockTrack - Inventory Checker


Get price and stock information at your local stores.




stocktrack.ca


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Lincoln said:


> Amazon really struggled too during covid. It was their chance to shine and the wheels fell right off the machine.
> 
> I deal with local and Canadian based companies when ever possible. Sometimes, you just can't.


While I don't question your experience, mine wasn't like that at all with Amazon. They delivered most stuff to me super fast. I've got Prime though so that may help.

Also noteworthy was OCS. They improved a fair bit during Covid.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Good observations there.
> 
> Some stores have been suffering a slow decline towards death for years. Many of them, as you pointed out, because of customer service, or lack thereof. The pandemic may just be a blessing in disguise and merciful in the respect that they will finally come to their conclusion.
> 
> ...


The customer service thing is a huge deal. Amazon's customer service has been outstanding anytime I have had to use it. Theres a lot of local stores with awful customer service, when better customer is service should be a reason I pick them over online.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Milkman said:


> While I don't question your experience, mine wasn't like that at all with Amazon. They delivered most stuff to me super fast. I've got Prime though so that may help.
> 
> Also noteworthy was OCS. They improved a fair bit during Covid.


maybe it was just an "out west" problem. The wife just got something 2 days ago that she ordered in march, on prime, two day delivery. That's how fvcked up they were. There were so many items we gave up on and later got........well after we had found what we needed in an actual store.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Lincoln said:


> maybe it was just an "out west" problem. The wife just got something 2 days ago that she ordered in march, on prime, two day delivery. That's how fvcked up they were. There were so many items we gave up on and later got........well after we had found what we needed in an actual store.


we saw delays here, even on my wifes Prime account. nowhere near as bad as yours though....a couple weeks or so, at the height of it all.

Amazon also tried to turn down business a little by cancelling all the promos they previously had with Rakuten/ebates...except for their own Alexa/Firestick products.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Diablo said:


> FYI, my wife works for one of the large food manufacturers, and sees sales data from most of the big retailers on a weekly basis. last week was the biggest in terms of sales since the big run on stuff for the pandemic, in the spring.
> some of that may be back to school related, but they also saw a huge spike in things like toilet paper....so the recent news about covid cases and fear of wave 2 may be sparking the hoarders again.
> 
> heres a handy site (albeit not 100% accurate) for checking inventory of local stores for items you may be in need of, before you leave the house. I used it to find Lysol wipes, for example.
> ...


So far none of the stores I go to are out of much. That's actually going to the store and looking at the shelves instead of looking on line. I find that most of the places I go too are fairly well stocked in common items. If not then there's another store that has them. As far as ordering on line goes....I don't do it. If I need and want something now then I go to a store and buy it, now.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Lincoln said:


> maybe it was just an "out west" problem. The wife just got something 2 days ago that she ordered in march, on prime, two day delivery. That's how fvcked up they were. There were so many items we gave up on and later got........well after we had found what we needed in an actual store.


The son of one of the guys I know just got a job with Amazon warehouse here. Supposed to be a 10 hr day/4 day week thing. From what I understand that lasted about 2 days, now its a 10+ hr a day/5 1/2 day week just to catch up.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

I think ultimately whether you agree with a business' business model or not, the lowest price is king.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

butterknucket said:


> I think ultimately whether you agree with a business' business model or not, the lowest price is king.


Depends on if you can afford to vote with your wallet or not.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

butterknucket said:


> I think ultimately whether you agree with a business' business model or not, the lowest price is king.


One thing to remember is that Amazon is not always the cheapest option even. A lot of times local stores promos will be better. But, amazon is definitely the most convenient and I will absolutely admit I use it for that reason. 

There's also a lot of times buying an item that I want to research a ton of available options. Especially some items that strain my budget but are needed. Being able to browse through any possible option sitting at home, rather than driving from store to store in my town is a plus. I can also see the questions people have asked about the item, or submit one. When I go into a lot of local stores a lot of the staff know nothing about what they are selling, nor give a shit.

A lot of local stores have taken away any reason you had to go local. If I am going to have to look online for info because staff at the store doesn't give a crap, I will just buy online.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I'm more worried about the restaurants & bars we'll be losing along the way. They got to be hurtin. 

I've had Amazon prime since 2013 my account says. My Amazon orders peaked in 2018 with 70 transactions that year. It's been dropping since then however. The magic seems to be fading (for me anyway). I just don't see the great deals they used to have. Prices now seem to be average or way above average. I dunno.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Lincoln said:


> I'm more worried about the restaurants & bars we'll be losing along the way. They got to be hurtin.


I had a conversation with another local musician recently and we both wondered about the future of live entertainment in general when it comes to bars and clubs. With covid limiting capacity, many of them are either not doing live bands or have cut them back. And we were wondering how long until these bar owners realize that live music is an expense they can live without even after we get through pandemic.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> I had a conversation with another local musician recently and we both wondered about the future of live entertainment in general when it comes to bars and clubs. With covid limiting capacity, many of them are either not doing live bands or have cut them back. And we were wondering how long until these bar owners realize that live music is an expense they can live without even after we get through pandemic.


Are any bands and bars collaborating such that one can only see their streamed set at a specific location? Not pay-per-view as such, but not a public access Youtube, either. The establishment pays the band for the file/service, and the patrons come to see the band because they can only see them *there*. Since it's a file, the owners can keep playing it over and over, as patrons come and go.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I think this will still be around in 5 years and even if they do actually find a vaccine a lot of people won't want to take it.

No way I'm going into a bar or restaurant anytime soon; if they go out of business then others will start up and open when it's safe to do so. As it is now with distancing they likely can't turn a profit and using public money to subsidize them would be foolish because they are going down regardless. Even if they had no restrictions on distancing you'd need to be a Darwin candidate to go there as things are now so profits will still be down.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Wardo said:


> I think this will still be around in 5 years and even if they do actually find a vaccine a lot of people won't want to take it.
> 
> No way I'm going into a bar or restaurant anytime soon; if they go out of business then others will start up and open when it's safe to do so. As it is now with distancing they likely can't turn a profit and using public money to subsidize them would be foolish because they are going down regardless. Even if they had no restrictions on distancing you'd need to be a Darwin candidate to go there as things are now so profits will still be down.


It's harsh, but it's the reality. Especially in areas where winter hits hard. There's indoor seating at restaurants, but right now the ones in my town are making money through patios (some event have multiple patios). The distanced indoor seating won't get them through winter. As numbers surge in ontario, less people will eat indoors even if they do have the option to. 

There's several restaurants in my town that were more known for their take out even though they have indoor seating. Those ones are doing pretty well through this. A couple opted to not even open patios because it's extra resources to run and they are doing fine with take out. These are the only places that will likely survive.

General workers in this industry are flat out screwed.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Great thread.. There was an article on the demise of local indie venues. It's sad but there's really not much we can do. I know of places where the only thing they have is alcohol and a stage. Even if you are able to bring in musicians and with all the social distancing that you can do, who's going to come out to watch live music? 

As for online shopping, there's really no way for the retail stores to survive with online shopping getting more and more popular. I love the convenience of being able to buy stuff and get it delivered a day or two later. The reviews do help a lot too. One thing I do nowadays, for instance with L&M or Fleetsound here in Ottawa is to check their website first and then order it for pickup. With Fleetsound, I can even talk to someone through chat whenever I want to buy something. They don't put their inventory on the website but I can ask through chat if they have the item available.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I mean there's gofundmes for venues people want to keep open, but of course that means you would actually have to spend your money.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Budda said:


> I mean there's gofundmes for venues people want to keep open, but of course that means you would actually have to spend your money.


I've watched streamed shows at venues and donated for each one. But I could give them 100 times that and it's not going to offset the amount of money they are losing. It's only a temporary bandaid if this keeps up for even another year.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

torndownunit said:


> I've watched streamed shows at venues and donated for each one. But I could give them 100 times that and it's not going to offset the amount of money they are losing. It's only a temporary bandaid if this keeps up for even another year.


This is why the goal is usually to get more than just the venue regulars involved.

It's a struggle.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Budda said:


> This is why the goal is usually to get more than just the venue regulars involved.
> 
> It's a struggle.


I think a key issue with the streams is people generally aren't going to donate the same amount of money that they would have spent on alcohol while there we at the live show. So ya, it's a pretty tough issue to overcome for so many reasons.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of salons, barbers, nail, and tanning places go under.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Wardo said:


> I think this will still be around in 5 years and even if they do actually find a vaccine a lot of people won't want to take it.
> 
> No way I'm going into a bar or restaurant anytime soon; if they go out of business then others will start up and open when it's safe to do so. As it is now with distancing they likely can't turn a profit and using public money to subsidize them would be foolish because they are going down regardless. Even if they had no restrictions on distancing you'd need to be a Darwin candidate to go there as things are now so profits will still be down.


Thing is, I'm not talking about bars or restaurants going under. I'm talking about them realizing that paying $500 to have a band every weekend doesn't actually make a difference on how many customers come through the door. So they decide to rip out the stage and be done with the live music part of their business. I'm curious how many actual stages there will be around after this, not how many food or beverage establishments.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> the future of live entertainment in general when it comes to bars and clubs.


It will probably take a hit along the lines that you are suggesting.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Low bid wins more often.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> Thing is, I'm not talking about bars or restaurants going under. I'm talking about them realizing that paying $500 to have a band every weekend doesn't actually make a difference on how many customers come through the door. So they decide to rip out the stage and be done with the live music part of their business. I'm curious how many actual stages there will be around after this, not how many food or beverage establishments.



I think that ship sailed many years ago. The club scene, at least in terms of budgets available for live entertainment, is a pale shadow of its former self. Naturally that is driven by changes in culture, habits and with the advent of the internet.

But, yes, I think more clubs will likely come to the conclusion that people don't go out to watch a band play much anymore and save the money.

Please believe me when I say that gives me no pleasure. It's just the way it is and that started long before Covid-19.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

There are pay-to-play establishments that I figure will keep on going.

One bar that we used to play in called us back four times because of friends/family that came out to see us.
They outnumbered the regular patrons all the time.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Agree with you guys. It has been an issue in the last 10-15 years now, probably even longer. There are clubs and bars that manage to hang on but this pandemic is the nail to the coffin.
Talking about livestreams, big artists are now starting to charge for their livestreams. Joe Bonnamassa just did a 'worldwide' concert and they charged to watch it. I am a big fan of Rickie Lee Jones and she's been struggling because she's not one of those who made enough money and was always dependent on touring to make a living. She started doing the livestreams for free but asked for donations. Now you have to pay to watch her, she charges $15. I don't blame her. I honestly think this where it's headed. How it develops I am not sure but livestreams are pretty much the way to do it if you want to continue performing 'live'.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

laristotle said:


> There are pay-to-play establishments that I figure will keep on going.


Yeah but how are they going to provide the safety measures required during this pandemic. This is not going away soon. Honestly, I won't play even if they pay me $1k right now. For one thing, who is going to watch us playing? If we depend a lot on friends and family for shows, that's not going to happen. And if you are a new band, how are you going to establish a following? I also had a call as soon as we went to stage 2 and I told them it's just impossible for me to get a 6piece band together without the risk associated with being together in one small place (my studio for that matter). And the next thing is, who is going to come out to watch us. We had a steady group of about 30 people coming to our shows but those ones I'm sure won't come out to watch us during this covid thing.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

No one has said it yet, so I will...

How many stores selling bricks and mortar do you really need anyway?

Sorry, my sense of humour is weird.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

laristotle said:


> There are pay-to-play establishments that I figure will keep on going.
> 
> One bar that we used to play in called us back four times because of friends/family that came out to see us.
> They outnumbered the regular patrons all the time.


I know you've been around for the times I'm referring to. Back in the 80s your friends might have been lucky to even find a seat in the club. The bars were full, even on weekdays. Oh sure there was the odd dead club, or dead night, but nothing like today.

The world has changed and people have different habits now.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Club/bar/restaurant gigs started taking a big hit in the late '70s with disco and DJs, in the early '80s with the gradual tightened smoking and drinking laws, and thereafter with tightened drunk driving laws. Toss in sports bars with huge TV screens and video game tables. 

I remember taking a stand in the late '70s that I wouldn't leave the house for less than $100 as my share of the band's take. The same gigs two years ago, before I gave it up, paid about the same, and there were a mere fraction of the venues left.

Legions are closing, that's got to be a bellwether.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Mooh said:


> Club/bar/restaurant gigs started taking a big hit in the late '70s with disco and DJs, in the early '80s with the gradual tightened smoking and drinking laws, and thereafter with tightened drunk driving laws. Toss in sports bars with huge TV screens and video game tables.
> 
> I remember taking a stand in the late '70s that I wouldn't leave the house for less than $100 as my share of the band's take. The same gigs two years ago, before I gave it up, paid about the same, and there were a mere fraction of the venues left.
> 
> Legions are closing, that's got to be a bellwether.


Legions and other military service clubs are facing all of the challenges other bars are, and also they face the very real fact that their core demographic, like Elvis fans, are becoming fewer and fewer simply because of age.

Again, if it sounds like I'm somehow taking pleasure in this, that's not the case.


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## DaddyDog (Apr 21, 2017)

guitarman2 said:


> Even buying from the smaller "Mom and Pop shops", you're only as good as the current purchase you want to make. The same with music stores.


This one hits home. I had spent many thousands over a few years at a shop. Always friendly, and all of the staff knew me. Then one day I asked for a favour. I got read the riot act on how any business conducted there was only for the shop. I never went back. Removed all connections with the shop. Stopped recommending them. And took my next several thousands of dollars elsewhere.


Post edit: But let me give huge props to a business where I have spent maybe $200. Yet the owner knows me by name at guitar shows. Answers questions I have asked in social media. I am no where close to being a good enough musician to spend the money on their top notch services. Mike at *Nice Rack Canada* is fantastic.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

DaddyDog said:


> This one hits home. I had spent many thousands over a few years at a shop. Always friendly, and all of the staff knew me. Then one day I asked for a favour. I got read the riot act on how any business conducted there was only for the shop. I never went back. Removed all connections with the shop. Stopped recommending them. And took my next several thousands of dollars elsewhere.


The best local music shop in our little city was bought out by L & M recently. I have no hate on for L & M but the difference is clear.

I'll shop there (or at least look there first) but any loyalty and "relationship" I had with the previous owners is now gone.

I don't blame them for selling. It was time. But, it marked the end of decades of give and take which was beneficial to both me and them.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Question about clubs: Do people spend more on average, per person, when the place is packed, compared to when there's only a modest turn out? If so, is that an influence of the presence of a crowd, or do you think it's a reflection of who turns out when there are smaller versus larger crowds? I am about as far from a "regular" as one might find, so I ask the question naively.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Question about clubs: Do people spend more on average, per person, when the place is packed, compared to when there's only a modest turn out? If so, is that an influence of the presence of a crowd, or do you think it's a reflection of who turns out when there are smaller versus larger crowds? I am about as far from a "regular" as one might find, so I ask the question naively.


That's an interesting question. There may be data somewhere to answer it, but I think it may be six of one and a half dozen of the other, as the saying goes.

I do think there's a lot to the "crowd mentality" affecting each other's behaviour, but then again, maybe when it's a small crowd, those who attend are diehard fans who are there more for the music than for the party.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Question about clubs: Do people spend more on average, per person, when the place is packed, compared to when there's only a modest turn out? If so, is that an influence of the presence of a crowd, or do you think it's a reflection of who turns out when there are smaller versus larger crowds? I am about as far from a "regular" as one might find, so I ask the question naively.


I can't speak for all genres, but playing heavier music a crowd in a small venue will still drink a lot even if it's not packed. I am sure they are scenarios where the lack of a crowd or party atmosphere in a venue could affect the amount of drinking going on though. If the atmosphere is a downer, it can definitely affect people's mood.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

It's always helpful to remember that the goal is not to put on a great show or play the music to your absolute best ability.

The goal is to sell booze.

Sometimes you can do both, but honestly, I think that's rare in bars.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

torndownunit said:


> I can't speak for all genres, but playing heavier music a crowd in a small venue will still drink a lot even if it's not packed. I am sure they are scenarios where the lack of a crowd or party atmosphere in a venue could affect the amount of drinking going on though. If the atmosphere is a downer, it can definitely affect people's mood.


We've always billed ourselves as a "Party Band" and provide entertainment accordingly. It's gonna be a long time before crowds are allowed to dance, sing along and pump their fists in the air.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> We've always billed ourselves as a "Party Band" and provide entertainment accordingly. It's gonna be a long time before crowds are allowed to dance, sing along and pump their fists in the air.


Ya at this point my band only plays a half dozen local shows each summer (this is our 21st year). Those were either large parties, or really small venues we could easily fill and have a ripping party night at. 2 scenarios which obviously are both a no go. I have my doubts we will even keep playing after this. We live a bit of a distance apart and the fun of playing those shows each summer kept us playing. Being that we live a distance apart, we also aren't in the same social bubble and haven't jammed. We have all been fully expecting the shit to hit the fan again, so we basically all have just stuck to the same habits since phase 2 here.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Once upon a time, a band could supplement whatever they made from playing gigs with CD sales. But who buys CDs anymore and even if you want to, where do you find them? Streaming services and Youtube never really anticipated pandemics. Or at least, the folks who supply them with content never anticipated it.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Once upon a time, a band could supplement whatever they made from playing gigs with CD sales. But who buys CDs anymore and even if you want to, where do you find them? Streaming services and Youtube never really anticipated pandemics. Or at least, the folks who supply them with content never anticipated it.



Yes, that's certainly another factor affecting musicians' incomes incomes in a very negative way.

The wholesale plunder and lack of respect for intellectual properties has impact.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

mhammer said:


> Question about clubs: Do people spend more on average, per person, when the place is packed, compared to when there's only a modest turn out? If so, is that an influence of the presence of a crowd, or do you think it's a reflection of who turns out when there are smaller versus larger crowds? I am about as far from a "regular" as one might find, so I ask the question naively.


Depends on how many pretty girls there are.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)




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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I guess it comes down to wants vs needs to an extent (although some would argue that music IS a need).

Society in general has decided that unless you're a huge star (with an engineer well versed in auto tune), as a musician, you are worth just a bit less than the guy sweeping the floor at the end of the night.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Once upon a time, a band could supplement whatever they made from playing gigs with CD sales. But who buys CDs anymore and even if you want to, where do you find them? Streaming services and Youtube never really anticipated pandemics. Or at least, the folks who supply them with content never anticipated it.


Bands still sell a lot of merch in general, just not CD's. Shirts are huge. I like to collect nice pins (the ones made of metal) and patches for example, and will buy any a band has (at $5-7 a pop usually). But, while larger bands will sell a certain amount online, they sell the bulk of it at shows. And that's even more so for smaller bands.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Once upon a time, a band could supplement whatever they made from playing gigs with CD sales. But who buys CDs anymore and even if you want to, where do you find them? Streaming services and Youtube never really anticipated pandemics. Or at least, the folks who supply them with content never anticipated it.


I threw out the remaining blank cd's I had yesterday. I didn't even know I still had them, and obviously don't see myself needing them moving forward (I can't remember the last time I needed one). 

There was a time when I would easily use several in a week.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

allthumbs56 said:


> We've always billed ourselves as a "Party Band" and provide entertainment accordingly. It's gonna be a long time before crowds are allowed to dance, sing along and pump their fists in the air.


No kidding. We dropped 'Sweet Caroline' as a closer because most people absolutely CAN NOT self-isolate when that's being played. 


Seriously, the bar business was mortally wounded before this C19 started. It's more about what the audience wants, and the changing demographics, than about people not going out now due to self-iso. The current health concerns are just hastening the demise. It was inevitable, from what I could see.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Milkman said:


> it was my fruitless visits to Lowes, Home Depot, Home Hardware, and other similar places


i've got a residential design / construction docs office in a small town old fashioned independent lumber yard in rural Manitoba. The sales guys here often recommend that people to go to the Home Despot / Lowes for comparison shopping. There's more than one category of bricks and mortar shopping. 

Two reasons Some stuff we can't compete on price/availability so don't even try to stock things with wide variety of available options - plumbing and electrical fixtures, ceramic tile, and flooring are a few examples. Home Depot can retail at prices that are lower than our supplier cost plus 20 different options sitting there in front of you we can't touch that. The staff there might not know jack about it and you might not be able to order another matching one but it doesn't matter it's basically like going to Ikea. 

Sometimes we get people who grumble about some detail of customer service, delivery, or other support from us so we recommend that they head on down and check out the bigger options for comparison. Those people often come back a few days later having been reminded how terrible customer service and standard product availability can be at a big box. When you want a materials package delivered on time, complete, with the custom orders and details taken care of, stacked correctly in order that you will use the stuff, with a list of local contractors you can call in case you get in over your DIY head that inspires confidence and a return visit then we can do it all day every day without breaking a sweat and the big boxes generally can't. 

I'd say the big boxes (and online retailers) beat us every time on things with discretionary options but not fully custom details. We beat them almost every time on delivered basic products and fully custom orders like doors and windows, floor and roof truss systems, and other stuff that needs to be exactly right for a specific project including permits and reviews and other paperwork in order. 

So the niche that bricks and mortar stores occupy is changing but not going away. We've become more like a music shop and less like a Wal-Mart because that's where the demand is and when the sale involves some level of advice and relationship with experienced local experts then we've got a pretty good chance of knocking it out of the park. It's the same way you can buy an entry level electric guitar at Best Buy and at Ted Good Music but your chances of success are better with the advice and support you'll get from the staff at Ted Good. 

j


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

butterknucket said:


> I threw out the remaining blank cd's I had yesterday. I didn't even know I still had them, and obviously don't see myself needing them moving forward (I can't remember the last time I needed one).
> 
> There was a time when I would easily use several in a week.


I still have two 50/pk spindles plus three dvd.
It was years since I burned anything until two weeks ago.
A friend bought an used SUV, the same model/year that I own and commented that the CD player handles MP3 as well. I didn't know that (never really checked actually). So I burned ~16 hrs worth of various blues on two CD's for both of us.
I have a lot more on my computer and external hard drive. Seems that I'll be doing more burns again.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

laristotle said:


> I still have two 50/pk spindles plus three dvd.
> It was years since I burned anything until two weeks ago.
> A friend bought an used SUV, the same model/year that I own and commented that the CD player handles MP3 as well. I didn't know that (never really checked actually). So I burned ~16 hrs worth of various blues on two CD's for both of us.
> I have a lot more on my computer and external hard drive. Seems that I'll be doing more burns again.


There was a time when I needed them for saving Pro Tools sessions because I had to move around a lot, and cd's were the only thing big enough at the time. I could easily go through a spindle of 100 in a couple months.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

laristotle said:


> I still have two 50/pk spindles plus three dvd.
> It was years since I burned anything until two weeks ago.
> A friend bought an used SUV, the same model/year that I own and commented that the CD player handles MP3 as well. I didn't know that (never really checked actually). So I burned ~16 hrs worth of various blues on two CD's for both of us.
> I have a lot more on my computer and external hard drive. Seems that I'll be doing more burns again.



This was the only reason I kept cdrs around. Then cars got USB ports that take flash drives. Then Bluetooth came around and I used my phone. Now I have Android Auto which I love, and my Spotify is connected.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Funnily enough, a thread about retail generated a discussion about venues.  


Milkman said:


> Legions and other military service clubs are facing all of the challenges other bars are, and also they face the very real fact that their core demographic, like Elvis fans, are becoming fewer and fewer simply because of age. ...


The Legions are also suffering in part because many of them haven't updated since the Korean War. Same goes for a lot of bars - once they've gone seedy, it's too late to renovate because there isn't any revenue anymore. I think that done right, there is a market for live music in most communities, but too many places start off great but the initial profits go up a nose, or into a Hummer (using a local example), and there is no five-year plan for updating the place. Many mom & pop retail places also fail because there isn't a long term plan to maintain facilities.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> i've got a residential design / construction docs office in a small town old fashioned independent lumber yard in rural Manitoba. The sales guys here often recommend that people to go to the Home Despot / Lowes for comparison shopping. There's more than one category of bricks and mortar shopping.
> 
> Two reasons Some stuff we can't compete on price/availability so don't even try to stock things with wide variety of available options - plumbing and electrical fixtures, ceramic tile, and flooring are a few examples. Home Depot can retail at prices that are lower than our supplier cost plus 20 different options sitting there in front of you we can't touch that. The staff there might not know jack about it and you might not be able to order another matching one but it doesn't matter it's basically like going to Ikea.
> 
> ...


a friend of mine (former drummer, actually) works for a fairly large plumbing and HVAC company...his stories mirror yours.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> i've got a residential design / construction docs office in a small town old fashioned independent lumber yard in rural Manitoba. The sales guys here often recommend that people to go to the Home Despot / Lowes for comparison shopping. There's more than one category of bricks and mortar shopping.
> 
> Two reasons Some stuff we can't compete on price/availability so don't even try to stock things with wide variety of available options - plumbing and electrical fixtures, ceramic tile, and flooring are a few examples. Home Depot can retail at prices that are lower than our supplier cost plus 20 different options sitting there in front of you we can't touch that. The staff there might not know jack about it and you might not be able to order another matching one but it doesn't matter it's basically like going to Ikea.
> 
> ...


I worked at Home Depot many years ago. I was thrown into the hardware department with no experience. After a few days I was given the department phone and left alone, and was expected to take calls and give expert advice on power tools. 

Did I mention I have no experience with power tools and didn't even know how to use them at the time?


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

It’s an electric guitar - you plug it in.

It’s an electric drill - you plug it in.

That’s all you need to tell them; you could work at a music store or a hardware store - same difference.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

butterknucket said:


> I worked at Home Depot many years ago. I was thrown into the hardware department with no experience. After a few days I was given the department phone and left alone, and was expected to take calls and give expert advice on power tools.
> 
> Did I mention I have no experience with power tools and didn't even know how to use them at the time?


lol...I probably met you at the Oakville location  thats how most of the associates were there!
j/k
HD is hit and miss...the peterborough one was good when we had a cottage near there...seemed like they hired a lot of former tradespeople.

I used to work for HP, calling on stores like best buy, future shop, costco etc...i knew our PC's, printers etc...but once a store rep there pulled me into a deal he was trying to close on a big screen tv...was trying to get past the Plasma VS LED debate...I had no idea what to say, could tell the customer knew it too lol. doubt I got much past "...this one has plasma in in it, this one doesnt."


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Diablo said:


> lol...I probably met you at the Oakville location  thats how most of the associates were there!
> j/k
> HD is hit and miss...the peterborough one was good when we had a cottage near there...seemed like they hired a lot of former tradespeople.


Home Depot was a mixed bag back then. There were people who really knew what they were doing, along with people who had no clue. Who was scheduled on any particular day was a whole other story.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

I've yet to hear a clerk say 'you can always google the features' .. yet.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

laristotle said:


> I've yet to hear a clerk say 'you can always google the features' .. yet.


LOL, it's coming.

How far is that from them telling you they can order it?


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Milkman said:


> Legions and other military service clubs are facing all of the challenges other bars are, and also they face the very real fact that their core demographic, like Elvis fans, are becoming fewer and fewer simply because of age.
> 
> Again, if it sounds like I'm somehow taking pleasure in this, that's not the case.


The legion I belong to here is closed Sunday, Monday and Tuesday. When it is open there's a descent amount of people for the size of the place. It might hold 80 people max. Mostly vets and reg forces but some civilians. Probably about 1/4 of the vets there are under 50, some of them from the Vets housing just up the road. Some like the #1 here in town have slowed down because it's hard to get to them. The c train runs right in front of their door and the closest parking is a couple of blocks away. If it wasn't for the fact that they are almost a heritage site they's probably be a parking lot. Sevice clubs are the same way, especially those close to bases. You go to small town BC or Alberta and most legions are still getting by.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

mhammer said:


> Question about clubs: Do people spend more on average, per person, when the place is packed, compared to when there's only a modest turn out? If so, is that an influence of the presence of a crowd, or do you think it's a reflection of who turns out when there are smaller versus larger crowds? I am about as far from a "regular" as one might find, so I ask the question naively.


Part of it depends on the male to female ratio and what type of club it is. In the types of clubs I used to go to on occasion, if the place was packed and jumping, especially with a good live band, a lot of money got spend. If it was sort of quite and not a lot of people then those there would move on to another place. Even if you bought a round for the table, in a quiet place that might just be 3 or 4 drinks. If it's jumping, could be 20 or more with more than a round bought. Plus you have to figure that even if you buy the same amount of drinks whether the place is crowded or not, 100 people are going to spend a lot more money than one. I'd say that it's more the type of crowd instead of just a crowd.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

laristotle said:


> I've yet to hear a clerk say 'you can always google the features' .. yet.


At a new big box store that just opened up a lot of the staff from the old store didn't move to the new one and you do hear, "let's google that" or, "did you google that ?" Or, "The guy in charge of this section will be right back. He will know.".


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> At a new big box store that just opened up a lot of the staff from the old store didn't move to the new one and you do hear, "let's google that" or, "did you google that ?" Or, "The guy in charge of this section will be right back. He will know.".


It's certainly not the same as stereo shopping in the 70's where the products stayed unchanged for a year and the clerks were proud of their knowledge. Now phones and computers are featured and defeatured with each shipment and the clerk is too busy learning a new rap lyric so he can out-gangsta his homes.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

allthumbs56 said:


> It's certainly not the same as stereo shopping in the 70's where the products stayed unchanged for a year and the clerks were proud of their knowledge. Now phones and computers are featured and defeatured with each shipment and the clerk is too busy learning a new rap lyric so he can out-gangsta his homes.


Well this seems grossly inaccurate.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Budda said:


> Well this seems grossly inaccurate.


And you remember the 70's how well? 😊

I was last at Bestbuy 2 weeks ago to try and buy a Chromebook. I don't know that the "Chromebook Expert" I spoke with was learning raps - but he certainly knew less about the Chromebooks on display than I did (after 2 weeks of internet browsing).

When I bought my first stereo I knew very little. I learned everything by visiting stores and listening to salespeople who were professional at their jobs, knew their stuff, and took pleasure in demoing their products to a 19 year-old kid.

Who still owns that first stereo by the way 👍


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Wardo said:


> It’s an electric guitar - you plug it in.
> 
> It’s an electric drill - you plug it in.
> 
> That’s all you need to tell them; you could work at a music store or a hardware store - same difference.


The only thing I was told was that Ryobi is crap, unless the rep is in.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

allthumbs56 said:


> I was last at Bestbuy 2 weeks ago to try and buy a Chromebook. I don't know that the "Chromebook Expert" I spoke with was learning raps - but he certainly knew less about the Chromebooks on display than I did (after 2 weeks of internet browsing).
> 
> When I bought my first stereo I knew very little. I learned everything by visiting stores and listening to salespeople who were professional at their jobs, knew their stuff, and took pleasure in demoing their products to a 19 year-old kid.
> 
> Who still owns that first stereo by the way 👍


So to be clear, if you're constantly getting new products and the features on the products you already carry are always changing, you should be able to remember every detail _and_ the whole store inventory?

You really think the kids are busy learning lyrics to songs and not doomscrolling on media seeing how fast and hard things are crashing down around them? If you were here for the 70's, you likely contributed (intentionally or not). 

For the record, you don't remember the 70's well either. Memories are very unreliable, and easy to change. That's not the point though, the dig at the poor kid working Best Buy is.

I don't have time for "the new generation is stupid" thing.


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## SG-Rocker (Dec 30, 2007)

Budda said:


> So to be clear, if you're constantly getting new products and the features on the products you already carry are always changing, you should be able to remember every detail _and_ the whole store inventory?
> 
> You really think the kids are busy learning lyrics to songs and not doomscrolling on media seeing how fast and hard things are crashing down around them? If you were here for the 70's, you likely contributed (intentionally or not).
> 
> ...


The poor kid is living a better quality of life as a direct result of the work that the deplorables of the 70s laid the groundwork for.

The 70s brought with it fashion, music and film that will still be enjoyed for decades to come. 
Everything today is disposable and by extension, generally worthless and unremarkable. Ever wonder why depression and suicide stats are at an all time high despite much higher standard of living afforded by technology and its creature comforts.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

SG-Rocker said:


> The poor kid is living a better quality of life as a direct result of the work that the deplorables of the 70s laid the groundwork for.
> 
> The 70s brought with it fashion, music and film that will still be enjoyed for decades to come.
> Everything today is disposable and by extension, generally worthless and unremarkable. Ever wonder why depression and suicide stats are at an all time high despite much higher standard of living afforded by technology and its creature comforts.


You actually think that's what things are like for younger people today? I don't even know how to respond to that if that's what you think. That is absolutely not reality in any way. I am 44 which I guess makes me young enough to actually know what people have to deal with and have some fucking empathy for them. From other posts on the board, I know there are older members here who know what an absolute shit show it is for young people right now. Stuff like this is the reason a saying like "ok boomer" exists.


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## SG-Rocker (Dec 30, 2007)

torndownunit said:


> You actually think that's what things are like for younger people today? I don't even know how to respond to that if that's what you think. That is absolutely not reality in any way. I am 44 which I guess makes me young enough to actually know what people have to deal with and have some fucking empathy for them. From other posts on the board, I know there are older members here who know what an absolute shit show it is for young people right now. Stuff like this is the reason a saying like "ok boomer" exists.


I don't think they perceive it that way nor appreciate the luxuries and conveniences that they take for granted that we didn't grow up with (I'm the same age as you).


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

SG-Rocker said:


> I don't think they perceive it that way nor appreciate the luxuries and conveniences that they take for granted that we didn't grow up with (I'm the same age as you).


Ya, I'm not even getting into this. You are fucking ridiculous. Reading this shit just makes me hate humanity and how people can be completely unaware.


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## SG-Rocker (Dec 30, 2007)

torndownunit said:


> Ya, I'm not even getting into this. You are fucking ridiculous. Reading this shit just makes me hate humanity and how people can be completely unaware.


Snagged your quote before the edit.

I perceive modern life as much easier than what I grew up with. Must be this dang privilege everyone keeps talking about. I enjoyed my youth where trophies were earned, side-scrollers were commonplace and hard work was rewarding. I was also proud to be a Canadian because it meant something good (not a disgrace as we are told these days).

I remember looking forward to turning 16 and getting my learners permit. Many kids these days don't even care and have no motivation. It's not their fault though, since the advent of the internet and accelerated by social media and ever more immersive video games, reality has become a bummer which is a shame.

But hey man, you do you. 

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

It's clear you don't actually understand what the current teens and 20-somethings have to experience. I suggest doing some research.


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## SG-Rocker (Dec 30, 2007)

Budda said:


> It's clear you don't actually understand what the current teens and 20-somethings have to experience. I suggest doing some research.


I have a teen and twenty something.
They are well grounded and were raised them to realize the importance of balancing work and play. They also have good critical thinking skills and appreciate the reward of hard work and determination vs. the quick, easy cheap thrills afforded by tech / social media (think achievement unlocked).

They make me proud everyday.

And no, we're not Hutterites.

Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

You still dont seem to understand what is being discussed though.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

SG-Rocker said:


> I have a teen and twenty something.
> They are well grounded and were raised them to realize the importance of balancing work and play. They also have good critical thinking skills and appreciate the reward of hard work and determination vs. the quick, easy cheap thrills afforded by tech / social media (think achievement unlocked).
> 
> They make me proud everyday.
> ...


I bet your greatest joy in live is hearing yourself speak. The 'issues' you are listing are absolutely not the very serious issues young people are dealing with as they leave school these days. But it's just useless to get into because you keep overlooking the entire message and the actual issues.. Also, I guess it's your right do decide what all kids are like out there? Come on man. Seriously.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Budda said:


> It's clear you don't actually understand what the current teens and 20-somethings have to experience. I suggest doing some research.


Man shake that chip off.

I was being critical of the system that fills such a position with someone who has to occupy a minimum-wage job rather than someone who once saw a retail position as a career. Sign of the times.

Sheesh!


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## SG-Rocker (Dec 30, 2007)

torndownunit said:


> I bet your greatest joy in live is hearing yourself speak. The 'issues' you are listing are absolutely not the very serious issues young people are dealing with as they leave school these days. But it's just useless to get into because you keep overlooking the entire message and the actual issues.. Also, I guess it's your right do decide what all kids are like out there? Come on man. Seriously.


Maybe the problem with the kids today are the shitty parents who deferred the job of raising them onto teachers.
School was intended to teach academics and not replace the parental role which sadly appears to be the case in many instances.

But whatevs, YOLO !


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Budda said:


> You still dont seem to understand what is being discussed though.


I had to just use the ignore list while I hate using it. A person like that is not going to listen to any reason, while thinking it's ok to judge an entire generation. It's simply disgusting. How do you even begin to go about explaining the financial, emoyment, debt situation out there to someone who doesn't care or understand it. It just makes me really sad to read and an actual discussion isn't an option.


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## SG-Rocker (Dec 30, 2007)

So much for diversity of opinion.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Interesting discussion. And I'm just struck by the apparent contrast between some people I know, many in their early 40s, who were low income in their early 20's when they got here from eastern europe and now they have large homes, expensive vehicles and two or three kids who want for nothing, are doing well in school and eyeing which professions they want to go into. The parents are well educated but started construction companies and such when they got here; so they worked hard and did OK in a short time.


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## SG-Rocker (Dec 30, 2007)

Wardo said:


> Interesting discussion. And I'm just struck by the apparent contrast between some people I know, many in their early 40s, who were low income in their early 20's when they got here from eastern europe and now they have large homes, expensive vehicles and two or three kids who want for nothing, are doing well in school and eyeing which professions they want to go into. The parents are well educated but started construction companies and such when they got here; so they worked hard and did OK in a short time.


A solid work ethic and determination go a long way.

Bitching and blaming the world around you goes a long way too, but in the opposite direction.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Wardo said:


> Interesting discussion. And I'm just struck by the apparent contrast between some people I know, many in their early 40s, who were low income in their early 20's when they got here from eastern europe and now they have large homes, expensive vehicles and two or three kids who want for nothing, are doing well in school and eyeing which professions they want to go into. The parents are well educated but started construction companies and such when they got here; so they worked hard and did OK in a short time.


There are absolutely people doing well out there. But there's way way more people who worked their asses off, and worked their asses off at school and have no opportunities. The issue is that the working hard and finishing school doesn't guarantee a fraction of what it used to. School costs more, house prices are crazy everywhere, jobs are tough to get. The key thing as well is the cost of living now doesn't cooincide remotely with what's gone on with wages and stuff like tuition or house costs. 

It's a dark time for a ton of people, and then Covid shows up and decimates a lot of jobs, hitting the people just getting by the hardest.

There are absolutely kids who don't appreciate things. It's not specific to this generation and is a stupid stereotype.


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## SG-Rocker (Dec 30, 2007)

torndownunit said:


> There are absolutely people doing well out there. But there's way way more people who worked their asses off, and worked their asses off at school and have no opportunities. The issue is that the working hard and finishing school doesn't guarantee a fraction of what it used to. School costs more, house prices are crazy everywhere, jobs are tough to get. The key thing as well is the cost of living now doesn't cooincide remotely with what's gone on with wages and stuff like tuition or house costs.
> 
> It's a dark time for a ton of people, and then Covid shows up and decimates a lot of jobs, hitting the people just getting by the hardest.
> 
> There are absolutely kids who don't appreciate things. It's not specific to this generation and is a stupid stereotype.


The demand for skilled trades is high. Maybe someone should be warning the kids about the perils of pursuing woke arts degrees and instead encourage them to learn an employable skill.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

SG-Rocker said:


> The demand for skilled trades is high.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

love what this thread has become. usuals being themselves. thanks for the read


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## SG-Rocker (Dec 30, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


>





vadsy said:


> love what this thread has become. usuals being themselves. thanks for the read


I'll have you notice that Jim and I are agreeing on something.
It's a good day indeed.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Having lived thru the 70's....what I can remember about it.....things are a hell of a lot different now. And if a lot of kids now were working back then with the attitude they have now they'd be out of a job. Just a personal observation. I'm not too sure tho if you can go into a store and say, put that amp with that reciever and that turntable and those speakers and we'll see what it sounds like and if I like the way that it sounds. Everything I see now seems to be sold as a set and loud seems to be more important than quality. 
@torndownunit......there's a lot of us parents and grandparents who know what 'kids' are going thru today. Some are going thru a "shit show" and some are not. That's the 'kids' choice.


SG-Rocker said:


> The poor kid is living a better quality of life as a direct result of the work that the deplorables of the 70s laid the groundwork for.
> 
> The 70s brought with it fashion, music and film that will still be enjoyed for decades to come.
> Everything today is disposable and by extension, generally worthless and unremarkable. Ever wonder why depression and suicide stats are at an all time high despite much higher standard of living afforded by technology and its creature comforts.


Nah. To a certain extent things done in the last 10 years has more bearing on what life is like now for kids than on what we did in the 60's and 70's. From what I recall, the 70's was a pretty "disposable" era for a lot of things.


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## SG-Rocker (Dec 30, 2007)

Electraglide said:


> Nah. To a certain extent things done in the last 10 years has more bearing on what life is like now for kids than on what we did in the 60's and 70's. From what I recall, the 70's was a pretty "disposable" era for a lot of things.


Things from the 70s that sucked.....

1) 8 Tracks
2) Disco
3) Fender guitars

As far as disposable, most electronics from the era were still quite user-serviceable.
Canada also enjoyed a strong manufacturing sector.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

SG-Rocker said:


> Things from the 70s that sucked.....
> 
> 1) 8 Tracks
> 2) Disco
> ...


Disco, yes unless you were really drunk. Most electronics that survived are used as parts to keep other ones going. Not all that user servicable.....that would have been things from the 50's. I can remember pulling apart things and the tossing them because the weren't "user-servicable". Just wondering tho, you're in your early 40's, right? How do you remember so much about the 70's.? As far as 8 tracks go, that's 60's stuff. Same with cassettes and what my first truck had in it......an AM radio and a 4 track. That would have been '66.
You mentioned 70's film .....did you ever really watch 'saturday night fever'? Even Fritz the Cat, Heavy Metal and Easyrider don't cut it now for most if you're under 40.


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## SG-Rocker (Dec 30, 2007)

Electraglide said:


> Disco, yes unless you were really drunk. Most electronics that survived are used as parts to keep other ones going. Not all that user servicable.....that would have been things from the 50's. I can remember pulling apart things and the tossing them because the weren't "user-servicable". Just wondering tho, you're in your early 40's, right? How do you remember so much about the 70's.? As far as 8 tracks go, that's 60's stuff. Same with cassettes and what my first truck had in it......an AM radio and a 4 track. That would have been '66.
> You mentioned 70's film .....did you ever really watch 'saturday night fever'? Even Fritz the Cat, Heavy Metal and Easyrider don't cut it now for most if you're under 40.


I was blessed to be raised in a pretty cool family. My musical tastes are firmly planted in 70s guitar rock. 
Nearly every classic car chase movie is from the 70s. I've been repairing vintage circuits for about 30 years, so I've seen the change over the years from a serviceability point of view. The problem these days isn't so much not being able to repair SMD boards, but rather the fact that many parts are proprietary and unavailable. The electronics of the 70s still used turret boards and simple PCBs with through hole components that were and are still readily available.

From what I can glean from my elders, it was a simpler time and morale was good as opposed to today's world, rich with every creature comfort imaginable yet still not happy.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

SG-Rocker said:


> I was blessed to be raised in a pretty cool family. My musical tastes are firmly planted in 70s guitar rock.
> Nearly every classic car chase movie is from the 70s. I've been repairing vintage circuits for about 30 years, so I've seen the change over the years from a serviceability point of view. The problem these days isn't so much not being able to repair SMD boards, but rather the fact that many parts are proprietary and unavailable. The electronics of the 70s still used turret boards and simple PCBs with through hole components that were and are still readily available.
> 
> From what I can glean from my elders, it was a simpler time and morale was good as opposed to today's world, rich with every creature comfort imaginable yet still not happy.


I could argue the simpler time thing. Take mortages for instance. My first one bounced from somewhere around 3 or 4 % interest to 18% and I think it hit in the low 20's before i bit the bullet and borrowed the money from family to pay it off.....then spent years paying that money back. Some where in there I got layed off. I was married and we were starting to think abbout having a kid. Morale.....no better than today and to some extent worse. I know a lot of people your age who are very happy. As far as I know this generation still pays the same % of income for a house, a car, raising a family etc. even tho they make a lot more money/hr.
Electronics servicability.....I believe you had said "user-servicablity" which is a bit different than repairing circuit boards. A lot of the time back then if something broke down you replaced it.....we were living the dream and didn't want too much to do with our parents generation. Go check out what's crushed and buried in city dumps from back then. Classic car chases......there's a lot of difference between what you see in 50 year old movies and what actually happened but if they were't that old then they wouldn't be classic. I know of one "car chase movie" where everyone watches it because of a girl on a motorcycle. Or there's this which to some of my age is 'classic'.




The Italian Job is kinda funny too. Seems every generation has movies with car chases in the. Ask any 20 something to compare the chase in say Bullet with the ones in the Fast and Furious series or the Bond Series. 
Anyway it's a moot point.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

a day does not go by here where a Grandpa Simpson meme can’t be used effectively


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

vadsy said:


> a day does not go by here where a Grandpa Simpson meme can’t be used effectively


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> Having lived thru the 70's....what I can remember about it.....things are a hell of a lot different now. And if a lot of kids now were working back then with the attitude they have now they'd be out of a job. Just a personal observation. I'm not too sure tho if you can go into a store and say, put that amp with that reciever and that turntable and those speakers and we'll see what it sounds like and if I like the way that it sounds. Everything I see now seems to be sold as a set and loud seems to be more important than quality.
> @torndownunit......there's a lot of us parents and grandparents who know what 'kids' are going thru today. Some are going thru a "shit show" and some are not. That's the 'kids' choice.
> 
> Nah. To a certain extent things done in the last 10 years has more bearing on what life is like now for kids than on what we did in the 60's and 70's. From what I recall, the 70's was a pretty "disposable" era for a lot of things.


You are talking about mortgage rates, but you aren't mentioning that house prices in the majority of areas in a province like Ontario comparatively are much higher. Things like tuition prices are as well. The wages now have no increased to offset the way the cost of living has gone. Someone with better economic terminology will be able to sum this up much better than I can, but I think the just of what I am saying is there. These sort of things are absolutely not anyone's choice. What my parents taught me about working hard at any job and you will get ahead does not even really apply today. It's not enough.

And to people bringing up trades, I absolutely agree it's a great route. But not everyone out there can work a trade.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

torndownunit said:


> You are talking about mortgage rates, but you aren't mentioning that house prices in the majority of areas in a province like Ontario comparatively are much higher. Things like tuition prices are as well. The wages now have no increased to offset the way the cost of living has gone. Someone with better economic terminology will be able to sum this up much better than I can, but I think the just of what I am saying is there. These sort of things are absolutely not anyone's choice. What my parents taught me about working hard at any job and you will get ahead does not even really apply today. It's not enough.
> 
> And to people bringing up trades, I absolutely agree it's a great route. But not everyone out there can work a trade.


Wrong. My first house 1971 was $22,000 which at the time for what it was was high in that area of Burnaby. My second in 1983 was $32,000 and the 3rd in '93 was $72,000. The 4th in 2013 was $245,000. We're not talking new houses, infact except for the house I bought in 93 they were built in the 50's and early 60's. The '93 house was 10 years old. Didn't need or want a new house. When I bought the first one I was making $1.80/hr and my first wife was making the same. Cost of living per person/couple/family all depends on those people and not comparing someone in BC with someone in Ont. but working hard at a job and you'll get ahead does apply. My son works hard, has two red seal journeyman's trades plus various other certificates, makes an ugly amount of money and has a lot of toys. Most of them paid for. Including the house he bought with his girlfriend/cl wife about 8 years ago. If where he works had a journeyman mechanic he's probably have his mechanics papers too. He started working when he graduated and works hard. He's gotten ahead and so have most of his friends and the kids and grandkids of people I know who are about the same age. I figure anyone who says that hard work doesn't get you anywhere is just making excuses, same with saying not everyone can work a trade. You want to do it, then you do it. You start on the shop floor and work your way up. Saying "It's not enough" is just like saying 'give me more'.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

SG-Rocker said:


> Things from the 70s that sucked.....
> 
> 1) 8 Tracks
> 2) Disco
> ...


My Mustang has a serial number from the 70s, but may have actually been made in the 80s.
But it doesn't suck.


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## Fred Gifford (Sep 2, 2019)

torndownunit said:


> You are talking about mortgage rates, but you aren't mentioning that house prices in the majority of areas in a province like Ontario comparatively are much higher. Things like tuition prices are as well. The wages now have no increased to offset the way the cost of living has gone. Someone with better economic terminology will be able to sum this up much better than I can, but I think the just of what I am saying is there. These sort of things are absolutely not anyone's choice. What my parents taught me about working hard at any job and you will get ahead does not even really apply today. It's not enough.
> 
> And to people bringing up trades, I absolutely agree it's a great route. But not everyone out there can work a trade.


I agree with you Torndownunit .. in 1983 I was making $15 hr. and I could buy a brand new, built for me, house for $65,000 ... in my neighbourhood now, used houses are going for between 800K to $1,000,000. I feel real bad for the kids coming up now ... owning a home is starting to look awful hard unless you bring in a huge amount of money


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)




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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

allthumbs56 said:


> Man shake that chip off.
> 
> I was being critical of the system that fills such a position with someone who has to occupy a minimum-wage job rather than someone who once saw a retail position as a career. Sign of the times.
> 
> Sheesh!


But that's not really what you said, was it? You just took a pot shot at the younger crowd. It's the internet, and you've been on it for a while. Explicitly state what you mean the first time. It goes a long way in communicating in every area of life.

"Can you get some bread?"
"Can you get a loaf of selections multi-grain that is on sale at freshco?"

As far as retail goes, did people really want to walk a shop floor and answer questions and deal with terrible and nice people alike 40 hours a week for 50 years? Was that ever really a career, or an entry job to move up?


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Fred Gifford said:


> I agree with you Torndownunit .. in 1983 I was making $15 hr. and I could buy a brand new, built for me, house for $65,000 ... in my neighbourhood now, used houses are going for between 800K to $1,000,000. I feel real bad for the kids coming up now ... owning a home is starting to look awful hard unless you bring in a huge amount of money


As a single income earner, even doing fairly well, I know I'll never be able to afford a home near my family. My only option would be to move in the middle of nowhere. Which actually wouldn't be horrible, except I require solid high speed internet for work, and that I need to be near my family for the next few years. In another few years, I'll be even more screwed with real estate prices.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I think (hope?) I'm past the stage where I would categorically denounce an entire generation.

I've probably demonstrated that sort of mentality in the past. I'll say this. I like the music and culture of the 70s better because that's when I grew up. I don't like what technology and social norms have done to the music business. I also don't like what technology has done to much of the music on the radio (yes, autotune).
But that's just my likes and dislikes and they don't mean better or worse.


I suspect kids are smarter, better informed and better educated than my generation was.

And, I hope there are still some physical stores to visit in five or ten years.


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## SG-Rocker (Dec 30, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I suspect kids are smarter, better informed and better educated than my generation was.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Electraglide said:


> Wrong. My first house 1971 was $22,000 which at the time for what it was was high in that area of Burnaby. My second in 1983 was $32,000 and the 3rd in '93 was $72,000. The 4th in 2013 was $245,000. We're not talking new houses, infact except for the house I bought in 93 they were built in the 50's and early 60's. The '93 house was 10 years old. Didn't need or want a new house. When I bought the first one I was making $1.80/hr and my first wife was making the same. Cost of living per person/couple/family all depends on those people and not comparing someone in BC with someone in Ont. but working hard at a job and you'll get ahead does apply. My son works hard, has two red seal journeyman's trades plus various other certificates, makes an ugly amount of money and has a lot of toys. Most of them paid for. Including the house he bought with his girlfriend/cl wife about 8 years ago. If where he works had a journeyman mechanic he's probably have his mechanics papers too. He started working when he graduated and works hard. He's gotten ahead and so have most of his friends and the kids and grandkids of people I know who are about the same age. I figure anyone who says that hard work doesn't get you anywhere is just making excuses, same with saying not everyone can work a trade. You want to do it, then you do it. You start on the shop floor and work your way up. Saying "It's not enough" is just like saying 'give me more'.


Hard work does not guarantee advancement. I know because Im almost a decade into a job and have seen who moves where. I believe the last stat I saw is that people are averaging 20 jobs or so before they retire, if they get to retire. 

Advancing means more pay, and if there's anything companies dont want to do, it is pay more money.

Not everyone can work a trade. To say otherwise is immensely dumb. If you literally cannot operate the machines, work at the heights and dont understand the processes, you cant do the job.

There's people who play guitar with their feet (and well), but not everyone can play guitar.

Your understanding of the world in 2020 is missing some facts.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

SG-Rocker said:


> Jim and I are agreeing on something.


I've always had great respect for trades people. I started out as an auto mechanic....should have kept at it really. Took Drafting, Electricity, Welding and Auto shops in school. My son was over last week and is thinking about persueing and electricin apprenticeship. I told him it would probably be the smartest thing he ever did. He's 36.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Double


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Electraglide said:


> My first house 1971 was $22,000 which at the time for what it was was high in that area of Burnaby. My second in 1983 was $32,000 and the 3rd in '93 was $72,000. The 4th in 2013 was $245,000.


I just sold at $187,000. A mobile home. I also just bought at $85,000. No mortgage and good bye southern Ontario. Going from 1000 sq ft to 7000 sq ft. My shop will be in the basement and is about 1600 sq ft. Shop I'm leaving...240 sq ft.
Got an old church/community centre and have enough projects to last me a long long time. Thinking of trying the B&B business and a few other things.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> Wrong. My first house 1971 was $22,000 which at the time for what it was was high in that area of Burnaby. My second in 1983 was $32,000 and the 3rd in '93 was $72,000. The 4th in 2013 was $245,000. We're not talking new houses, infact except for the house I bought in 93 they were built in the 50's and early 60's. The '93 house was 10 years old. Didn't need or want a new house. When I bought the first one I was making $1.80/hr and my first wife was making the same. Cost of living per person/couple/family all depends on those people and not comparing someone in BC with someone in Ont. but working hard at a job and you'll get ahead does apply. My son works hard, has two red seal journeyman's trades plus various other certificates, makes an ugly amount of money and has a lot of toys. Most of them paid for. Including the house he bought with his girlfriend/cl wife about 8 years ago. If where he works had a journeyman mechanic he's probably have his mechanics papers too. He started working when he graduated and works hard. He's gotten ahead and so have most of his friends and the kids and grandkids of people I know who are about the same age. I figure anyone who says that hard work doesn't get you anywhere is just making excuses, same with saying not everyone can work a trade. You want to do it, then you do it. You start on the shop floor and work your way up. Saying "It's not enough" is just like saying 'give me more'.


I am not 'wrong' and more people not stuck in a time warp will chime in on this. People who know more than 'my son did this', like that sets some kind of standard for youth. It's even worse that you dismiss a post saying it's just a case of people asking for more for nothing. Seriously, open your eyes to the world. You are so intent on proving someone else wrong instead looking at what's actually going on.


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## SG-Rocker (Dec 30, 2007)

Budda said:


> Hard work does not guarantee advancement. I know because Im almost a decade into a job and have seen who moves where.


Maybe you should try to emulate those who are moving.




Budda said:


> Not everyone can work a trade. To say otherwise is immensely dumb. If you literally cannot operate the machines, work at the heights and dont understand the processes, you cant do the job.


If that's your attitude, then you're gonna have a real bad time if the neo-communists get their way.
I'm red sealed in three trades (Automotive, heavy-equipment and truck/coach repair) and am fully capable in residential electrical and plumbing as well as roofing, drywall and mud, paint, framing and finish carpentry.

If I had a dime for every time I had a woman say that she wishes her husband / boyfriend was handy (read - not useless) I'd buy this thread a breakfast at Mcdonalds.

Your defeatist attitude probably has more to do with your altitude than lack of ability to learn practical skills.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Fred Gifford said:


> I agree with you Torndownunit .. in 1983 I was making $15 hr. and I could buy a brand new, built for me, house for $65,000 ... in my neighbourhood now, used houses are going for between 800K to $1,000,000. I feel real bad for the kids coming up now ... owning a home is starting to look awful hard unless you bring in a huge amount of money


I haven't done any study on this, but with the average prices I see for homes these days, I think we're getting into the territory that Japanese home buyers have been in for many years.

A mortgage there takes more than one generation to pay in many cases.

You start paying and maybe, just maybe, your kids finish after you're long gone.

In Vancouver, a frigging crackhouse can cost a million bucks, even though the building might be condemned.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Milkman said:


> I haven't done any study on this, but with the average prices I see for homes these days, I think we're getting into the territory that Japanese home buyers have been in for many years.
> 
> A mortgage there takes more than one generation to pay in many cases.
> 
> ...


What I hate is that people's reply to this is just to move somewhere else like every person has the option to just do that. I live in a rural area already, and prices anywhere within 2 hours of here any direction are getting out of control.

It goes along with the advice like 'just work a trade' which a lot of times comes from people who never even worked a trade themselves. Not everyone can work some jobs. I actually wish I could have worked a trade, but I've got a health issue I've had since I was 7 that prevents that. I've worked my ass off to establish a business where I can work around those issues.

Instead of trying to understand where people are coming from nowadays, the answer is just 'screw you, do better'. People can blame things like technology all they want, but they should also look at the fact that people have developed a complete lack of empathy or the ability to even ponder that 'you know what, things might actually be tougher out there than I thought'.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I've always had great respect for trades people. I started out as an auto mechanic....should have kept at it really. Took Drafting, Electricity, Welding and Auto shops in school. My son was over last week and is thinking about persueing and electricin apprenticeship. I told him it would probably be the smartest thing he ever did. He's 36.


My son in law in Victoria is a year into his electrician's apprenticeship. It's a struggle but will pay off in time. He's only making $15/hour (in Victoria!). They have a 2 year-old and he works extra jobs on the weekend and my daughter is working full-time as well and (with a little help from dad) they make ends meet. Several years from now he hopes to have his trade and get into BC Hydro - a double win. I've always told my kids to get into the civil service or get a trade. My two boys own a catering business that under Covid has lost all revenue so they opened up a store-front and sell gourmet sandwiches. One son is single but the other has school-aged children. It is a struggle - it always has been and always will be.

But to get back on topic. Downtown was replaced by malls, which were replaced by big-box stores, which are being replaced by internet shopping. It's what customers want today - and they're hurting themselves in the long run because it dries up their own employment opportunities.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

I like self checkout at the grocery store.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

torndownunit said:


> What I hate is that people's reply to this is just to move somewhere else like every person has the option to just do that. I live in a rural area already, and prices anywhere within 2 hours of here any direction are getting out of control.
> 
> It goes along with the advice like 'just work a trade' which a lot of times comes from people who never even worked a trade themselves. Not everyone can work some jobs. I actually wish I could have worked a trade, but I've got a health issue I've had since I was 7 that prevents that. I've worked my ass off to establish a business where I can work around those issues.
> 
> Instead of trying to understand where people are coming from nowadays, the answer is just 'screw you, do better'. People can blame things like technology all they want, but they should also look at the fact that people have developed a complete lack of empathy or the ability to even ponder that 'you know what, things might actually be tougher out there than I thought'.



There are sometimes mitigating circumstances. Many folks can't get over them. Sometimes getting knocked down is too hard to handle because of lack of exposure to it. Just keep getting back up and giving it your best shot. Staying down isn't the answer. Good for you for carving out your own niche and all the hard work you put into it. I have kids too and I find they have to be much more creative in finding solutions to issues other than "just work harder". I wouldn't want to be a young person trying to make a go of it in these times. Wages are lower and prices are higher and circumstances are more difficult. To quote an old pigeon Latin phrase though... Illegitimus non carberundum...translates into....Don't let the bastards wear you down.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> My son in law in Victoria is a year into his electrician's apprenticeship. It's a struggle but will pay off in time. He's only making $15/hour (in Victoria!). They have a 2 year-old and he works extra jobs on the weekend and my daughter is working full-time as well and (with a little help from dad) they make ends meet. Several years from now he hopes to have his trade and get into BC Hydro - a double win. I've always told my kids to get into the civil service or get a trade. My two boys own a catering business that under Covid has lost all revenue so they opened up a store-front and sell gourmet sandwiches. One son is single but the other has school-aged children. It is a struggle - it always has been and always will be.
> 
> But to get back on topic. Downtown was replaced by malls, which were replaced by big-box stores, which are being replaced by internet shopping. It's what customers want today - and they're hurting themselves in the long run because it dries up their own employment opportunities.


I'm glad to hear the sons with the catering business could adapt. Back sort of on the topic of this thread, 2 of my web design clients are catering companies and both shut down permanently fairly early on into Covid. Another one in town started doing exactly what you describe, as well as frozen premade meals. They are doing well enough with that that they think it will allow them to get through. They also downsized their facility.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

torndownunit said:


> I'm glad to hear the sons with the catering business could adapt. Back sort of on the topic of this thread, 2 of my web design clients are catering companies and both shut down permanently fairly early on into Covid. Another one in town started doing exactly what you describe, as well as frozen premade meals. They are doing well enough with that that they think it will allow them to get through. They also downsized their facility.


Yup - it is just "getting through" - neither has taken much of a wage in months as far as I know. But the lights are on and the door stays open. They seem to be getting a pretty good response from the public - but their profits are in catering large functions and the clock is running out on that one.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> Yup - it is just "getting through" - neither has taken much of a wage in months as far as I know. But the lights are on and the door stays open. They seem to be getting a pretty good response from the public - but their profits are in catering large functions and the clock is running out on that one.


The other interesting thing the company I mentioned did was partner with a local distillery to get bulk hand sanitizer to sell in their little store front. 

The restaurant next door to them used their food connections to shift to a 'general store' selling bulk meats etc. 

It's been interesting watching places adapt.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

torndownunit said:


> It's been interesting watching places adapt.


In the end that's our strength and what, in the end, will make the difference.

With every generation there are new challenges. I never once heard my parents cry about how the depression stole their childhood or how WWII stole their youth. They taught me by example and I hope I've done the same with my kids.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

torndownunit said:


> The other interesting thing the company I mentioned did was partner with a local distillery to get bulk hand sanitizer to sell in their little store front.
> 
> The restaurant next door to them used their food connections to shift to a 'general store' selling bulk meats etc.
> 
> It's been interesting watching places adapt.


Diversifying is key. I have clients that have a catering business, just reviewed things last week and they are down to 10% of where they were last year. But. They started making meals to go when covid forced them closed and that part is doing great. 

If I’m getting anything from this thread it’s that you need to work harder, or get a trade or stop memorizing rap lyrics and you’ll be fine. Otherwise the failure of your business or lack of successful livelihood is entirely your own fault.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Like I said earlier, some places just have poorly thought-out or inflexible business plans. Much like a 3-legged stool, it will remain upright if you lean the right way. Lean the wrong way and you fall over. 

The restaurant biz isn't the only example but is probably the epitome of this. When it works, I'm sure it's as rewarding to run/operate as it is to eat there. But so many are operated close to the bone, and are more a roll of the dice than anything else. And certainly we've all seen a location in a strip mall or similar that seems to change hands every 9 months or so. The current proprietor goes out of business, and some other fool thinks they're getting a bargain on all that kitchen equipment, hangs out a new sign and prints up a new menu, and 9 months later they're looking for a buyer themselves. Was it the "wrong" restaurant in the wrong location? Is the location itself "cursed"? Somebody either didn't plan or didn't adapt, and there was no pandemic to blame.

We attended an out-of-town-guest's reception for a wedding at a restaurant on Queen St. W. in Toronto several years back. As we drove down Queen looking for the address, I was struck by the seemingly endless parade of eateries. I came to the conclusion that maybe 25-40% of people in Toronto shop for groceries, and the remainder have _never_ eaten a meal at home. That was pretty much the only way I could see these places remaining in business.

My late father was a shitty businessman. Sometimes the only way he could come home with money was because I worked for him on weekends for nothing, and he stalled on paying his other employee and maybe even creditors. I'm sure he was not the only "business owner" in existence whose operation ran on fumes.

I don't say any of this to blame the victim. Few people go into business with bad intentions. But many go into business with crossed fingers and stars in their eyes. I don't expect many of them to survive this period.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

mhammer said:


> But many go into business with crossed fingers and stars in their eyes. I don't expect many of them to survive this period.


Pretty much.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Much like a 3-legged stool, it will remain upright if you lean the right way. Lean the wrong way and you fall over.


3 legs are always stable on an uneven floor - lots of need for tripods. To everything a purpose 😊


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I just sold at $187,000. A mobile home. I also just bought at $85,000. No mortgage and good bye southern Ontario. Going from 1000 sq ft to 7000 sq ft. My shop will be in the basement and is about 1600 sq ft. Shop I'm leaving...240 sq ft.
> Got an old church/community centre and have enough projects to last me a long long time. Thinking of trying the B&B business and a few other things.


I know, I saw pics. Nice looking place and affordable.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> 3 legs are always stable on an uneven floor - lots of need for tripods. To everything a purpose 😊


Hmmm, tripod. An old nickname of mine.....


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

here come the pics...


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I haven't done any study on this, but with the average prices I see for homes these days, I think we're getting into the territory that Japanese home buyers have been in for many years.
> 
> A mortgage there takes more than one generation to pay in many cases.
> 
> ...


I dont want to sound elitist, but maybe home ownership isnt for everyone, and buying a home with 10% or whatever down, isnt necessarily a good thing either for the individual or for the market?
Is there anywhere else in the world that has the same obsession with home ownership and stigmatizes renting as here?
do any of these people ever actually amortize what the total mortgage paid ends up at the end and ask "what if my property doesnt increase by 100% in 10 years"? 
I think we have a culture of becoming slaves to our homes in this country and over prioritize them in our investments due to a rather miraculous run in the market.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Diablo said:


> I dont want to sound elitist, but maybe home ownership isnt for everyone, and buying a home with 10% or whatever down, isnt necessarily a good thing either for the individual or for the market?
> Is there anywhere else in the world that has the same obsession with home ownership and stigmatizes renting as here?
> do any of these people ever actually amortize what the total mortgage paid ends up at the end and ask "what if my property doesnt increase by 100% in 10 years"?
> I think we have a culture of becoming slaves to our homes in this country and over prioritize them in our investments due to a rather miraculous run in the market.


The only reason I bring it up is as an example of a cost that has increased in a way that is just not inline with prices years ago. It's just one example of the current state of the cost of living.

I owned a home years ago with my ex. I have been single for years and I have no kids. I don't see myself as a failure because I currently rent. I am a minimalist, and unless I end up in a relationship I don't need much more than the small space I have. If I had a family, it would be a whole other matter. If condos weren't well over $300, 000 in my area, I would be interested though.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Toronto condo dwellers flock to exurbs, creating domino effect across Southern Ontario real estate


Increased sales and prices are reaching as far as Fort Erie




financialpost.com


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Diablo said:


> I dont want to sound elitist, but maybe home ownership isnt for everyone, and buying a home with 10% or whatever down, isnt necessarily a good thing either for the individual or for the market?
> Is there anywhere else in the world that has the same obsession with home ownership and stigmatizes renting as here?
> do any of these people ever actually amortize what the total mortgage paid ends up at the end and ask "what if my property doesnt increase by 100% in 10 years"?
> I think we have a culture of becoming slaves to our homes in this country and over prioritize them in our investments due to a rather miraculous run in the market.


My mortgage is less each month than most people pay to rent a medium sized apartment in this area.

And I'm at least building equity.

The fact that my house is worth four times what I paid for it doesn't hurt my feelings.

This is where I want to be.

You have to pay to live, whether it's your mortgage or somebody else's.

At least, that's the way I see it.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Milkman said:


> I haven't done any study on this, but with the average prices I see for homes these days, I think we're getting into the territory that Japanese home buyers have been in for many years.
> 
> A mortgage there takes more than one generation to pay in many cases.
> 
> ...


No wonder the van dwelling movement got so much traction.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

torndownunit said:


> The only reason I bring it up is as an example of a cost that has increased in a way that is just not inline with prices years ago. It's just one example of the current state of the cost of living.
> 
> I owned a home years ago with my ex. I have been single for years and I have no kids. I don't see myself as a failure because I currently rent. I am a minimalist, and unless I end up in a relationship I don't need much more than the small space I have. If I had a family, it would be a whole other matter. If condos weren't well over $300, 000 in my area, I would be interested though.


Actually I ran some numbers this afternoon. Overall the market is better than when I bought my first house in 1990. I had a mortgage of $104,000 locked in at 14.25% for five years. Two years after I bought, the market collapsed and the value of my house fell to $89,000. At that point the principle was reduced all the way to $102,900 - talk about being "upside down".

Today, all other things being equal, adjusted for inflation, and at a 3% interest rate what I did in 1990 is equal to having a $460,000 mortgage today. The BIG difference is that in the first two years almost all of my payment went to interest and after two years I only owned $1,100 of my house. At today's 3% I would own around $25,000 after two years.

I think the bottom line is that it has never been easy. Tomorrow will make today look better.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Diablo said:


> do any of these people ever actually amortize what the total mortgage paid ends up at the end


I've been meaning to tally that up for years now to find out what we actually paid.
It'd be nice if mortgage payments were tax deductible like in the U.S.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> Actually I ran some numbers this afternoon. Overall the market is better than when I bought my first house in 1990. I had a mortgage of $104,000 locked in at 14.25% for five years. Two years after I bought, the market collapsed and the value of my house fell to $89,000. At that point the principle was reduced all the way to $102,900 - talk about being "upside down".
> 
> Today, all other things being equal, adjusted for inflation, and at a 3% interest rate what I did in 1990 is equal to having a $460,000 mortgage today. The BIG difference is that in the first two years almost all of my payment went to interest and after two years I only owned $1,100 of my house. At today's 3% I would own around $25,000 after two years.
> 
> I think the bottom line is that it has never been easy. Tomorrow will make today look better.


You won't find a house within 2 hours of here for that is the issue. Condos can be over 400k even. The number only really matters when applied to where you can live. I'd absolutely love to move way up North were I could pay much less, but that won't be an option for a few years for me and there's all kinds of valid reasons why moving to the middle of nowhere isn't a fix all for everyone.

Again, the focus isn't just on houses. The issues go way beyond that. Houses were just picked as an example.

If we want, I can easily go find some articles the affordable housing issues and rent prices in Ontario? It's definitely not hard to find.









Ignored and Ignited: Affordable housing crisis has some Canadians feeling trapped


"I can't go anywhere," said one Canadian who wishes affordable housing was more of a campaign issue.




globalnews.ca







https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/federal-election-campaigns-affordable-housing-1.5254614







__





Tackling Canada’s housing challenges


Supply, policy and partnerships cited as key to affordability




www.theglobeandmail.com


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

torndownunit said:


> You won't find a house within 2 hours of here for that is the issue. Condos can be over 400k even. The number only really matters when applied to where you can live. I'd absolutely love to move way up North were I could pay much less, but that won't be an option for a few years for me and there's all kinds of valid reasons why moving to the middle of nowhere isn't a fix all for everyone.
> 
> Again, the focus isn't just on houses. The issues go way beyond that. Houses were just picked as an example.
> 
> ...


Yeah I never mentioned location. After being a renter in Toronto and then Mississauga we moved to St. Catharines where we finally could "afford" to buy a semi. My example of "today" would be based on the current market where a similar semi would sell for about $350,000..


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Looks like I've been missing a good thread. I'd love to jump in with my thoughts, but there are 9 pages to catch up on first.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> Yeah I never mentioned location. After being a renter in Toronto and then Mississauga we moved to St. Catharines where we finally could "afford" to buy a semi. My example of "today" would be based on the current market where a similar semi would sell for about $350,000..


My town is like a lot of large towns in this area. There is housing, but it's all been bought up by landlords. One bedroom apartments here can be $1500/month or more believe or not. I am actually in what would still be a bit of a rural area, but the same thing is happening even North of here. It's city rent prices in towns. So it's affecting most of the areas that were the ones people moved to for affordable housing and rent (how I originally ended up here). It's definitely a shit show that is going to turn into an even bigger one.


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

jbealsmusic said:


> Looks like I've been missing a good thread. I'd love to jump in with my thoughts, but there are 9 pages to catch up on first.


I'd probably enjoy your comments more than most. 

Do you have a brick and mortar component or just a distribution space?


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> My mortgage is less each month than most people pay to rent a medium sized apartment in this area.
> 
> And I'm at least building equity.
> 
> ...


I think it’s an illusion for most, that mortgage payments = total cost of property ownership. I say that as someone who once owned multiple properties...you notice more quickly how they can nickel and dime you into “profitless-ness” even in a strong housing market (which can never be taken for granted)...
property taxes, maintenance, keeping things up to date etc. not to mention if it’s a second property that is exposed to capital gains when eventually disposed,
and then you sell and lets say you made some money...when you go to buy something else, you realize everyone else’s went up to, so you’re really not further ahead anyway.

i say that just because it’s a curious thing to me...people in many other places, say NYC, London, don’t concern themselves with this drive to own property. 
im jaded.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Diablo said:


> you sell and lets say you made some money...when you go to buy something else, you realize everyone else’s went up to, so you’re really not further ahead anyway.


I have made the same observation. Unless you are "downgrading", when you sell, you still have to go somewhere to live. Usually, that means spending more than your profit from the sale. Most (but not all) want bigger, newer, nicer location, closer to amenities, etc. Then there are always the vultures circling overhead. Agents, lawyers, insurance, moving compainies, and anyone else claiming to "make your move easier and stress free".

Also, the new purchases that come with moving. Simple things people don't think about sometimes. I have moved a bunch of times and never have the curtains from one place been suitable for the next. Appliances? Furniture? Paint? Plants? Yard stuff? and more can all be an extra expense in moving that ought to be taken into consideration.

Also the time it takes. Time is money. Cleaning cabinets and rugs/floors, the bathroom (you're not going to put THOSE towels in the new bathroom are you? The colour is all off), packing and unpacking (Damn, that cabinet just won't fit anywhere), etc. are all things that have to be taken into consideration as part of the equation.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

What if you really have no intention of ever selling and you hope to pass the equity on to your kids?

You rent for, what, 60 years and at the end you pass on.....nothing, maybe some money?

I'm not trying to make a profit, it just seems like an easy choice between paying my mortgage or feathering someone else's nest.

Anyway, sometimes the best path doesn't hinge on the bottom line exclusively.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

SG-Rocker said:


> Maybe you should try to emulate those who are moving.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah yes, the "I know more about you because Im older" trope.

All kinds of wrong, but that's where things are at these days.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> What if you really have no intention of ever selling and you hope to pass the equity on to your kids?
> 
> You rent for, what, 60 years and *at the end you pass on.....nothing, maybe some money?*
> 
> ...


lol...we should be so lucky!
other than a few sentimental items, what else would a son/daughter want? An often outdated house, possibly needing repair, in a location they likely cant or dont want to live in, with property taxes they often cant afford, and messy inheritance process esp if divided between several children/spouse?
I remember there were stories in the paper of people who inheritted family cottages that they 1)couldnt afford to assume/pay taxes on 2)tore families apart squabbling over each inheritors piece of the pie/ownership responsibilities.

I think most people would rather get money than have to deal with someones old house.
it may not be prudent to think of a house as anything more than an asset...something that is bought, sold and has monetary value. When you get sentimental or nostalgic, you make worse financial decisions.

But, YMMV. Maybe in some cases theres discussions about whether or not a kid actually wants to live in the house after the parent passes. But I think too often assumptions are made....i know my mother made that assumption, that i wanted to continue on in her place...and she couldnt have been more wrong.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Diablo said:


> lol...we should be so lucky!
> other than a few sentimental items, what else would an son/daughter want? An often outdated house, possibly needing repair, in a location they likely dont want to live in, with property taxes they often cant afford, and messy inheritance process esp if divided between several children/spouse?
> I think most people would rather get money than have to deal with someones old house.
> But, YMMV.


My mileage does indeed vary. My kids love the home they grew up and in which I still live, and I know at least two of them would love to have it.

Property taxes? That seems better (and less than) monthly rent particularly when there's no remaining mortgage.

Outdated house? Do you mean like all those outdated guitars we value so highly?

As for "messy" inheritances, nothing is more disgusting to me than surviving relatives fighting over the assets of the recently departed.

I hope I've been successful in instilling that idea in my kids. At least, I have done so by example.

I guess I will never know.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Diablo said:


> I think most people would rather get money than have to deal with someones old house.





Milkman said:


> My kids love the home they grew up and in which I still live, and I know at least two of them would love to have it.


My dad avoided all that. After my mom died he sold the home, it wasn't the one we grew up in, and took most of his assets and cashed them in and divided most of it between the kids. No inheiritance taxes, no probate, no fusses, etc. He enjoyed actually witnessing what would have been in his will actually get dispersed and put to use. He commented more than once that he wouldn't have been able to enjoy that after he was dead. After he passed away it was a small matter of taking care of what was left over in his will.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> My mileage does indeed vary. My kids love the home they grew up and in which I still live, and I know at least two of them would love to have it.
> 
> Property taxes? That seems better (and less than) monthly rent particularly when there's no remaining mortgage.
> 
> ...


I think thats great that youve obviously had that discussion and are all in agreement and your kid(s) look forward to living there. Hopefully the can figure out how to buy each other out, or you have other assets to disperse to make it fair.

Terrible analogy comparing an outdated house to a vintage guitar though. Maybe some guys might be fine with a 40 yr old kitchen and bathroom and wood panelling basement...but if theres women in the picture, 99% of the time:forget it. Theres entire tv channels dedicated to tearing that shit down, and the banks have made a killing on the status symbol/expectation of everyone having an HGTV quality home.


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> My dad avoided all that. After my mom died he sold the home, it wasn't the one we grew up in, and took most of his assets and cashed them in and divided most of it between the kids. No inheiritance taxes, no probate, no fusses, etc. He enjoyed actually witnessing what would have been in his will actually get dispersed and put to use. He commented more than once that he wouldn't have been able to enjoy that after he was dead. After he passed away it was a small matter of taking care of what was left over in his will.


My father did the same. My mom went through an 8 year struggle with parkinson's in that house. He didn't want to stay there, and none of us would have wanted to live there.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Diablo said:


> I think thats great that youve obviously had that discussion and are all in agreement and your kid(s) look forward to living there. Hopefully the can figure out how to buy each other out, or you have other assets to disperse to make it fair.
> 
> Terrible analogy comparing an outdated house to a vintage guitar though. Maybe some guys might be fine with a 40 yr old kitchen and bathroom and wood panelling basement...but if theres women in the picture, 99% of the time:forget it. Theres entire tv channels dedicated to tearing that shit down, and the banks have made a killing on the status symbol/expectation of everyone having an HGTV quality home.



Is it really such a terrible analogy?

Some people see beauty and value in older homes in much the same way as some find beauty in outdated guitar and amp designs.

Given a choice, I choose the old house every time.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> My dad avoided all that. After my mom died he sold the home, it wasn't the one we grew up in, and took most of his assets and cashed them in and divided most of it between the kids. No inheiritance taxes, no probate, no fusses, etc. He enjoyed actually witnessing what would have been in his will actually get dispersed and put to use. He commented more than once that he wouldn't have been able to enjoy that after he was dead. After he passed away it was a small matter of taking care of what was left over in his will.


I'm starting to think that this is the best way too. My 2 brothers and I were left to fuss over who wants what. In the case of the house I might have liked to keep it but it meant buying out my brothers - which I couldn't afford to do at the time. As for my kids, they might want to hang on to a guitar each as a keepsake but I'm sure most of what I own will be converted to cash not long after my passing.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Is it really such a terrible analogy?
> 
> Some people see beauty and value in older homes in much the same way as some find beauty in outdated guitar and amp designs.
> 
> Given a choice, I choose the old house every time.


We may have to agree to disagree, but ya, I still think it is.
every older, perfectly serviceable, house in my area has a dumpster in the driveway the first month the new owners take over.
Unless we're talking about something particularly classic...a big old victorian or something, old is undesirable. houses from 50-70 yrs ago, just werent great...they dont have the hand crafted wood moldings or other desirable features of true classics. theyre just boxes with low ceilings, few if any charming details, not energy efficient, lack modern touches, too few and too small bathrooms, a barely functional by todays standards, kitchen, awkward layouts (vs the open concept trend) and cookie cutter curb appeal. the one thing they may have going for them is, larger lot sizes and mature treed neighbourhoods....which is why many end up as expensive gut jobs.

again, your standards as a guy, and perhaps a certain more practical generation, may not be reflective of younger and female demographics. Respectfully.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Diablo said:


> We may have to agree to disagree, but ya, I still think it is.
> every older, perfectly serviceable, house in my area has a dumpster in the driveway the first month the new owners take over.
> Unless we're talking about something particularly classic...a big old victorian or something, old is undesirable. houses from 50-70 yrs ago, just werent great...they dont have the hand crafted wood moldings or other desirable features of true classics. theyre just boxes with low ceilings, few if any charming details, too few and too small bathrooms, a barely functional by todays standards, kitchen, awkward layouts (vs the open concept trend) and cookie cutter curb appeal. the one thing they may have going for them is, larger lot sizes and mature treed neighbourhoods....which is why many end up as expensive gut jobs.
> 
> again, your standards as a guy, and perhaps a certain more practical generation, may not be reflective of younger and female demographics. Respectfully.


Mine is almost 100 years old. It's no palace but it has something (character?) we (my family) seems to love.

I was rehearsing at a friends house for a couple of years and the only way I didn't drive past his house every time was the birch tree on his front yard. All houses look almost exactly the same on that street. (modern subdivision houses).

Fixing up and renovating to our tastes has been a great pleasure for us over the years. It's always a work in progress.

And in fairness, the only thing that would prevent me from stripping and refinishing a vintage guitar would be that it would destroy the commercial value created by collectors. For me, it's a very applicable analogy.

YMMV


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> I'm starting to think that this is the best way too. My 2 brothers and I were left to fuss over who wants what. In the case of the house I might have liked to keep it but it meant buying out my brothers - which I couldn't afford to do at the time. As for my kids, they might want to hang on to a guitar each as a keepsake but I'm sure most of what I own will be converted to cash not long after my passing.


The part of the money my brother got from my dad's house sale is going to go towards my nieces college fund (or whatever else they need) as well. For both them and I, they money is way more useful than the house.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Mine is almost 100 years old. It's no palace but it has something (character?) we (my family) seems to love.
> 
> I was rehearsing at a friends house for a couple of years and the only way I didn't drive past his house every time was the birch tree on his front yard. All houses look almost exactly the same on that street. (modern subdivision houses).
> 
> ...


Ive been a diy/flipper before. Some good memories and lots of learning experiences, but after living in a new custom home, never again. everything felt like a compromise due to the physical limitations of the house.
families just differently now than we did in the years following WW2, when a lot of these homes were built.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Diablo said:


> Ive been a diy/flipper before. Some good memories and lots of learning experiences, but after living in a new custom home, never again. everything felt like a compromise due to the physical limitations of the house.
> families just differently now than we did in the years following WW2, when a lot of these homes were built.


We do the DIY without the flipping. I'm not trying to accumulate wealth. If we renovate or fix something, it's for our pleasure, not an incentive to a potential buyer.

Maybe because I've spend the lion's share of my life traveling for a living, having a sense of permanence is comforting.

Anytime I've spent in modern houses and / or hotels has left me pretty underwhelmed.

I'm not offering advice, just saying that for us, buying vs renting is a no brainer.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Diablo said:


> ...but if theres women in the picture, 99% of the time:forget it.


That's so true...I had a good chuckle on that one.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

butterknucket said:


> That's so true...I had a good chuckle on that one.


I guess I'm lucky. I met the right woman.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Diablo said:


> We may have to agree to disagree, but ya, I still think it is.
> every older, perfectly serviceable, house in my area has a dumpster in the driveway the first month the new owners take over.
> Unless we're talking about something particularly classic...a big old victorian or something, old is undesirable. houses from 50-70 yrs ago, just werent great...they dont have the hand crafted wood moldings or other desirable features of true classics. theyre just boxes with low ceilings, few if any charming details, not energy efficient, lack modern touches, too few and too small bathrooms, a barely functional by todays standards, kitchen, awkward layouts (vs the open concept trend) and cookie cutter curb appeal. the one thing they may have going for them is, larger lot sizes and mature treed neighbourhoods....which is why many end up as expensive gut jobs.
> 
> again, your standards as a guy, and perhaps a certain more practical generation, may not be reflective of younger and female demographics. Respectfully.


We had a bin in the driveway of my grandmother's house after she passed just so the place could be sold.. Most of what was in the house was junk, and cheap furniture from the 70's or earlier. All those memories and keep sakes you think you want become a lot less desireable when you have no room for them in your own home.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Milkman said:


> I guess I'm lucky. I met the right woman.


I don't think that's a slight at women. Guys just tend to be more practical in homes and furniture, whereas women tend to be more about style and appeal. That's just how it is.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

butterknucket said:


> I don't think that's a slight at women. Guys just tend to be more practical in homes and furniture, whereas women tend to be more about style and appeal. That's just how it is.



Be careful, that's a slippery slope.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Be careful, that's a slippery slope.


A lot of things are a slippery slope.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

laristotle said:


> I've been meaning to tally that up for years now to find out what we actually paid.
> It'd be nice if mortgage payments were tax deductible like in the U.S.


Don't do it, it's not worth it to know. At the rate my mortgage is, if it goes the full 300 months I'll have paid about $110,000 more than what we paid for the house and if it goes that long the house will be worth nothing. The big hope is that someone comes along and decides to buy up the whole block and maybe I break even tho I doubt that because I'd have to split that with my ex.. One of the nice things when we bought the place was and is the mortgage payments (including taxes) are less than half of what it would cost to rent the same place. 


Jim DaddyO said:


> I have made the same observation. Unless you are "downgrading", when you sell, you still have to go somewhere to live. Usually, that means spending more than your profit from the sale. Most (but not all) want bigger, newer, nicer location, closer to amenities, etc. Then there are always the vultures circling overhead. Agents, lawyers, insurance, moving compainies, and anyone else claiming to "make your move easier and stress free".
> 
> Also, the new purchases that come with moving. Simple things people don't think about sometimes. I have moved a bunch of times and never have the curtains from one place been suitable for the next. Appliances? Furniture? Paint? Plants? Yard stuff? and more can all be an extra expense in moving that ought to be taken into consideration.
> 
> Also the time it takes. Time is money. Cleaning cabinets and rugs/floors, the bathroom (you're not going to put THOSE towels in the new bathroom are you? The colour is all off), packing and unpacking (Damn, that cabinet just won't fit anywhere), etc. are all things that have to be taken into consideration as part of the equation.


Guess I've been lucky 'cause little things like the color of the towels has never been of any importance. Packed them in a box and put them out in the new place. Same with the bigger, newer, closer to amenities BS. There's a house with an acre or two of land and space for a shop. If I have to build the shop, so be it. The appliances work so they can stay. Don't have to worry about the curtains not working 'cause they stay with the place you're moving from (usually a rental).


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> Don't do it, it's not worth it to know. At the rate my mortgage is, if it goes the full 300 months I'll have paid about $110,000 more than what we paid for the house and if it goes that long the house will be worth nothing. The big hope is that someone comes along and decides to buy up the whole block and maybe I break even tho I doubt that because I'd have to split that with my ex.. One of the nice things when we bought the place was and is the mortgage payments (including taxes) are less than half of what it would cost to rent the same place.


My first home, which I spoke of earlier was bought by me for $110,000. With $11,000 down we ended up with a mortgage of $104,000 (a lot of purchasing costs they don't tell you about). At $14 1/4 over the full 25 year term the interest paid would have been $277,000.

Thankfully rates came down and I paid against the principal as I could. The interest I actually paid worked out to be about $230,000 nonetheless.

The interest was the biggest killer - that and the fact that the market crashed but I would tell anybody that if there's a way then today is probably the best time ever to buy a house. The money is practically free and with every payment you own a much bigger piece of your home. Today it will cost $169,000 in interest over 25 years for a $400,000 mortgage - the interest is half of the principle rather than 2 times. A pretty solid way to accumulate tax free wealth. And hey - you gotta live somewhere.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

butterknucket said:


> A lot of things are a slippery slope.


LOL, well fill yer boots then.

Don't say I didn't warn you.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

butterknucket said:


> I don't think that's a slight at women. Guys just tend to be more practical in homes and furniture, whereas women tend to be more about style and appeal. That's just how it is.


I (very quietly, furtively looking around) agree with you. If it weren't for Maggs, little in my house wouldn't see a lot of change - other than for maintenance. The carpet would be Rose and the walls would be half green and half burgundy with floral wallpaper borders.

Now the garage ...........................


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Jim DaddyO said:


> My dad avoided all that. After my mom died he sold the home, it wasn't the one we grew up in, and took most of his assets and cashed them in and divided most of it between the kids. No inheiritance taxes, no probate, no fusses, etc. He enjoyed actually witnessing what would have been in his will actually get dispersed and put to use. He commented more than once that he wouldn't have been able to enjoy that after he was dead. After he passed away it was a small matter of taking care of what was left over in his will.


Mom did roughly the same thing. When she sold the acerage and moved into town there was just me and the younger bro at home so what was left after she bought the place in town was split between us 4 kids. After me and the younger bro moved out she sold the house and bought the condo. Again what was left was split up.....by then the various pensions had kicked in so money was of no importance. The profit from the condo was put into an account and was split up again. If mom had kept the acreage it probably would have been divided into 4 and each one of us could do whatever we wanted to our part. 


Diablo said:


> Maybe some guys might be fine with a 40 yr old kitchen and bathroom and wood panelling basement...but if theres women in the picture, 99% of the time:forget it. Theres entire tv channels dedicated to tearing that shit down, and the banks have made a killing on the status symbol/expectation of everyone having an HGTV quality home.


I'm glad my various wives have been in the 1%. What we bought was what we were looking for. All 40+ year old homes. BTW, what's an HGTV quality home?


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Electraglide said:


> by then the various pensions had kicked in so money was of no importance.


Reminds me of a story...forgive the digression.

An older (80's) widow lady wanted to cancel her satellite TV. The company wanted her to return the equipment, including the dish on her roof. She told them they could come and get it if they want, at her age she couldn't take it down. They gave her months of hard time, telling her they were going to put it into a collection agency. Finally, talking to her son, he said something to the effect of realizing she was in her mid 80's and what did her credit rating matter at this point. Was she going to go out and buy a house or car or something?


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Electraglide said:


> what's an HGTV quality home?


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> I (very quietly, furtively looking around) agree with you. If it weren't for Maggs, little in my house wouldn't see a lot of change - other than for maintenance. The carpet would be Rose and the walls would be half green and half burgundy with floral wallpaper borders.
> 
> Now the garage ...........................


Aside from taking a chainsaw to cut two walls in half and building a set of stairs to the attic the house I bought with my second wife basically remained the same for more than 10 years. Same hardwood floors, same paint on the walls with the late '30s wallpaper in the dining room, same clawfoot cast iron bath tub. The shed I converted into a shop and the larger shop I built were a different story. Same with the 1/2 acre garden my ex wanted. The shops and the garden became a big selling point when we sold the place and we bought another that I shortly there after gave to my ex..


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Reminds me of a story...forgive the digression.
> 
> An older (80's) widow lady wanted to cancel her satellite TV. The company wanted her to return the equipment, including the dish on her roof. She told them they could come and get it if they want, at her age she couldn't take it down. They gave her months of hard time, telling her they were going to put it into a collection agency. Finally, talking to her son, he said something to the effect of realizing she was in her mid 80's and what did her credit rating matter at this point. Was she going to go out and buy a house or car or something?


Mom had her civil servant pension, widow's pension and a few others and dad's military pensions. They had been kinda small but then the gov't and military ones took a jump and her pension income went up about 5 times to what even today would be a good income. She often stated that she didn't know what to do with a lot of that money so we convinced her to do things like take trips....around the world.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

laristotle said:


>


So something useless that some people just have to have and believe the " Think of all the space you'll have when we take this wall out and build another one an inch away." BTW when did animation become so crappy? I've seen shadow puppets that are better.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Electraglide said:


> I'm glad my various wives have been in the 1%. What we bought was what we were looking for. All 40+ year old homes. BTW, what's an HGTV quality home?


in a word....expensive. 
in pictures: Sarah Richardson | HGTV Canada

edit: came across this-


The Great Rethink: Why the idea that everyone deserves to own a home is fundamentally flawed


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I guess I'm lucky. I met the right woman.


its not a woman vs woman thing, although theres of course lots of range there.
its a men vs women thing. we just dont care as much about our nest as they do.
although i admit, i love the conveniences of a modern house. I gave away all my extension cords...dont need them. modern code has outlets everywhere. hot and cold running hose bib in the garage? priceless....can wash my toys in any weather...havent been to a car wash in 5 yrs. WIFI acting funny? just plug in in an ethernet plug in any room! built in office on the main floor so i can have clients come in, and simply not feel like a shut in. 9ft ceilings just feel more spacious. windows everywhere so lots of natural light. and much more.
Ive experienced both worlds...grew up in a 1600 sq ft dark old toronto house built in 1911, with knob and tube wiring and 1 bathroom smaller than any of my current closets, for the whole house.. and a kitchen roughly double that. but yes, lots of old oak trim. no thanks.

but yes you are lucky you met the right woman. and any guy that does, would likely be wise to put up with her HGTV nonsense if shes so inclined


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Diablo said:


> in a word....expensive.
> in pictures: Sarah Richardson | HGTV Canada


Expensive, yes and it doesn't look like anyone actually lives there. Couldn't rebuild a Harley in any of those rooms and the dogs and kids would have them destroyed in about 10 minutes. Then what would the maid and housekeeper do.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Electraglide said:


> BTW when did animation become so crappy? I've seen shadow puppets that are better.


They did get better over the years.
Originally started as paper cutouts. Like claymation.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

When I see designer, ultra modern kitchens with 6 burner gas ovens and two dishwashers, it just screams no one here actually cooks. 

I'm referring to people I actually know.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

laristotle said:


> They did get better over the years.
> Originally started as paper cutouts. Like claymation.


Better than this?




I don't think so. Even this, which is a sad representation of the Freak Brothers is better than the flat, paper animation what ever they are. 




BTW as a diehard Freak Bros fan from day one I waited for the movie. From what I've seen I'll just keep on reading the originals. They didn't even get Fat Freddie's Cats name right.


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

butterknucket said:


> When I see designer, ultra modern kitchens with 6 burner gas ovens and two dishwashers, it just screams no one here actually cooks.
> 
> I'm referring to people I actually know.


No way man, I go to the local appliance showroom and jerk off over all those crazy expensive Wolf ranges, cooktops, fridges, modular gas appliances etc. If I had the $150k for their appliances, I would in a second outfit my kitchen with the practicality of a commercial kitchen but with a more refined design aesthetic. Dish-pit and all.

I'm sorry about your vain friends and their need to keep up with the jones'.

I guess working on multi-million dollar homes the last decade has refined my pallet.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

butterknucket said:


> When I see designer, ultra modern kitchens with 6 burner gas ovens and two dishwashers, it just screams no one here actually cooks.
> 
> I'm referring to people I actually know.


Food cooked in one of these tastes better. Especially when the cook knows how to use one.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Man, this place is boring. I need someone to start up a site that's constantly entertaining, that just gives and gives, that I don't have to participate, I just get to ride along for free. But I still want my participation ribbon, dammit.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

wrong thread, dude


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

vadsy said:


> wrong thread, dude


This is at least your 3rd Karen post in this thread. Do you really have nothing left that's interesting? Apparently not. 

I don't need all that room in your head, you could lend some of it out to someone else who doesn't cowtow to your constant bitching a whining. Just a thought .........


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I didn’t think the opportunity to poast an Abe Simpson meme would come this early in the day but , hey, it’s Friday. 

Enjoy your weekend, try not to rage all the way through to Monday.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Your so woke, so entitled, so protected, that you don't even know what rage actually looks like. LOL If you've seen any rage in this thread, I'd suggest you need to get off your computer 14 hours a day and get out, smell the flowers and get really 'woke'.

You (or at least your current persona) apparently don't have a clue what the world is really like. Hint: some user assembly may be required, it all isn't just handed to you in perfect working order. Sorry your parents and teachers lied to you. Really, I am.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

sQuAwk SqUawK sqUAwk


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

vadsy said:


> sQuAwk SqUawK sqUAwk


Slow Friday, I actually tried to make sense of your use of capitals.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

allthumbs56 said:


> Slow Friday, I actually tried to make sense of your use of capitals.


LOL Trying to use logic on posts that are obviously shit thrown at walls, hoping just one piece will stick while knowing most will just slide away. Good luck with that.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

tellme more about this space in your head devoted to Trudeau-Steadfastly-vadsy...


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Guys, you're being played.


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

Electraglide said:


> Food cooked in one of these tastes better. Especially when the cook knows how to use one.
> View attachment 329462



Do you still run a wood stove?

Im sure it all tasted great back in the 1800's when you were lucky to have seasoning to put on your boiled meat and potato's. Food sucked back then.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

TheYanChamp said:


> Do you still run a wood stove?
> 
> Im sure it all tasted great back in the 1800's when you were lucky to have seasoning to put on your boiled meat and potato's. Food sucked back then.


I guess you're saying food sucked back then from personal experience? Glad I'm not that old. From cookbooks I have from 1870 or so they had the same seasonings available now. Last time I cooked on a wood stove was about 5 years ago at the cabin.


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

I do know for a fact that culinary techniques have improved exponentially in even the past 20 years due to availability of ingredients and media attention, never mind a 120 years.

My great grandparents meals consisted of boiled bootleather roasts, overcooked vegetables if they weren't canned and using salt to make up for the lack of everything else. Remember when the microwave came out? That was a game changer, you could now microwave your roasts or be lazy and have yourself a perfectly cooked, savory salsberry steak with the push of a button.

Unrelenting nostalgia is a common symptom of senility.


----------



## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

TheYanChamp said:


> I do know for a fact that culinary techniques have improved exponentially in even the past 20 years due to availability of ingredients and media attention, never mind a 120 years.
> 
> My great grandparents meals consisted of boiled bootleather roasts, overcooked vegetables if they weren't canned and using salt to make up for the lack of everything else. Remember when the microwave came out? That was a game changer, you could now microwave your roasts or be lazy and have yourself a perfectly cooked, savory salsberry steak with the push of a button.
> 
> Unrelenting nostalgia is a common symptom of senility.


Yeah i remember when microwaves came out and having potatoes and other things exploding all over the place. Mom bought one in '66 or so. Big enough to cook a 25lb turkey in it tho that never happened. It didn't get used much after the initial month or so. Most got used for making popcorn and nuking cheese sandwiches. About the same as they do now. Bootleather roasts, overcooked vegetables and unedible food was usually what you got from them. As far as "culinary techniques" improving over the past 20 years....I doubt it. The spices and seasonings I use have been around for a hell of a long time. Most people just put more crap than is needed on their food thinking it improves the taste. 
This sounds like what the were spouting out at the Seattle Worlds Fair and the PNE and other fairs at the time. 
"a game changer, you could now microwave your roasts or be lazy and have yourself a perfectly cooked, savory salsberry steak with the push of a button." Followed by, "If you buy one right now, it's a limited time offer and don't tell my boss, I'll throw in......".


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## Waldo97 (Jul 4, 2020)

Went out with my family tonight. Figured we'd eat on a patio if we could find a spot, this being a lovely Saturday evening on the eve of the new lockdown. Empty!! One party at one restaurant. Where we ate was empty and we sat alone on their patio. Perfectly pleasant, but not good economics.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Electraglide said:


> Food cooked in one of these tastes better. Especially when the cook knows how to use one.
> View attachment 329462


One of those rearranged the finger prints on my right hand when I was about 5 years old.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

It was pretty quiet in L&M in Stratford today. I thought it would be busier on a Saturday. Had to buy a gig bag as I was one short for the move. Picked up a small supply of strings. D'Addario's for the Acoustic 6 and 12 in phospher bronze (no 80/20's in stock) and they didn't have any Nickel Rockers or Boomers in stock so I grabbed some Beefy Slinky's (11-54) for the strat I built. I was admiring the looks of the new Epiphones on the wall while I waited. Pretty tasty looking.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Yeah, I need mandolin strings and 4 sets of Elixir 80/20s for my HD28V. As for the rest of them I have enough strings to last a couple of years - If I live .. lol


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

They say this is not related to Covid-19, but I doubt it helped their situation. There seem to be too many of these clubs now to satisfy the remaining patrons. Same goes with churches. 









Branch 90 set to close and amalgamate with the South Brant Legion


Royal Canadian Legion, Branch 90, on Oak Street in Brantford is closing, a legion official confirmed Wednesday.




www.brantfordexpositor.ca


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

TheYanChamp said:


> Do you still run a wood stove?
> 
> Im sure it all tasted great back in the 1800's when you were lucky to have seasoning to put on your boiled meat and potato's. Food sucked back then.


Im not so old as to remember those days lol...But i do remember the "julia child" era...everything was so bland and over cooked...basic meat and potatos, which is fine, but...boring.
I put in a Wolf 36" stove with center grill in my old house, and I miss it  Had to put in a nearly industrial hood fan as well to move all the heat and smoke lol
people that put in high end appliances, 2 dishwashers etc may not be the best cooks (or maybe some of them are?) but i bet they entertain a lot and have great parties!


----------



## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Diablo said:


> Im not so old as to remember those days lol...But i do remember the "julia child" era...everything was so bland and over cooked...basic meat and potatos, which is fine, but...boring.
> I put in a Wolf 36" stove with center grill in my old house, and I miss it  Had to put in a nearly industrial hood fan as well to move all the heat and smoke lol
> people that put in high end appliances, 2 dishwashers etc may not be the best cooks (or maybe some of them are?) but i bet they entertain a lot and have great parties!


Or boring parties. All the right knives and forks and gently sipping wine. Mind you back in the day we'd invite some cookware salesman over to cook a meal for 10 or 15 and then someone would buy a pot. The next day was the electrolux salesman's turn. I never found a lot of julia's food bland, just too many sauces but what do you expect from a spy who graduated cordon bleu in the early 50's. Around home it was more like these ladies were cooking.








Most of the time when either grandmother used a recipe they used their mother's cook books. Mom was the same.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

old food was/is boring, the rest is fond memories.

we probably shouldn't judge people who have nice appliances on a guitar forum full of nice guitars, can you cook? dunno. can you play? dunno. how's your tone? maybe youre using too much salt...


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

vadsy said:


> old food was/is boring, the rest is fond memories.
> 
> we probably shouldn't judge people who have nice appliances on a guitar forum full of nice guitars, can you cook? dunno. can you play? dunno. how's your tone? maybe youre using too much salt...


Can I cook? Yes. Can I play? The only person that matters thinks I can, at times but then that's me. Don't care about anyone else. How's my tone" Well I'm white and a tad over weight so the tone isn't what it once was but I'm working on it and that's all that matters to me. Do I use too much salt? Well my dr. and cardiologist might think so at times but sometimes I don't use any. Old food is usually moldy.....depends on how long you leave it sitting in the fridge or on the counter....unless it's say an aged steak and then all it needs is a little salt and maybe some pepper with the outside seared and the inside cool to cold and the blood running.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

that's the spirit


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Waldo97 said:


> Went out with my family tonight. Figured we'd eat on a patio if we could find a spot, this being a lovely Saturday evening on the eve of the new lockdown. Empty!! One party at one restaurant. Where we ate was empty and we sat alone on their patio. Perfectly pleasant, but not good economics.


Several restaurants in my town that have actually had patios past summers decided not to open them and just focus strictly on take out. They do a good take out business anyway, so I guess staffing the patios made no sense. We are down to temps in the low teens here, so it's getting out of patio season soon too.

Breakfast places in town seemed to be the ones who had packed patios.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Diablo said:


> i bet they entertain a lot and have great parties!


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

torndownunit said:


> Several restaurants in my town that have actually had patios past summers decided not to open them and just focus strictly on take out. They do a good take out business anyway, so I guess staffing the patios made no sense. We are down to temps in the low teens here, so it's getting out of patio season soon too.
> 
> Breakfast places in town seemed to be the ones who had packed patios.


I went out with a buddy for lunch today, sit down dine-in sort of thing. Can't remember the last time I did that. Anyways. At the end of the meal I asked the waitress, all masked up, how business has been and she replied that they saw a huge influx when they were first allowed to open up again, even with all the rules and changes, but now it is slowing down. She was a bit of a conspiracy theory nut,.., I figured out as our conversations continued so I'm not sure how to take it because when I looked around the place was packed. She did say that Alberta Health and other powers that be have said they have to take more and extra precautions since they first opened and that may be the reason for the slow down. 

This particular joint has been a favourite of mine for a long time and during the lockdown they stepped up the take-out and also did grocery/liquor delivery while remaining closed to dine-in. We tried it out, one of our first at the height of it all and it went smoothly. They seem to have weathered the storm fairly well even if their attractive waitresses have a crazy streak to them. God bless em, the waitresses mostly but the restaurant business as well.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

laristotle said:


> View attachment 330252
> 
> View attachment 330253


Strange looking tupper ware but they're dish washer safe.....that's a bonus.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

laristotle said:


> View attachment 330252
> 
> View attachment 330253


where these parties at?


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

vadsy said:


> I went out with a buddy for lunch today, sit down dine-in sort of thing. Can't remember the last time I did that. Anyways. At the end of the meal I asked the waitress, all masked up, how business has been and she replied that they saw a huge influx when they were first allowed to open up again, even with all the rules and changes, but now it is slowing down. She was a bit of a conspiracy theory nut,.., I figured out as our conversations continued so I'm not sure how to take it because when I looked around the place was packed. She did say that Alberta Health and other powers that be have said they have to take more and extra precautions since they first opened and that may be the reason for the slow down.
> 
> This particular joint has been a favourite of mine for a long time and during the lockdown they stepped up the take-out and also did grocery/liquor delivery while remaining closed to dine-in. We tried it out, one of our first at the height of it all and it went smoothly. They seem to have weathered the storm fairly well even if their attractive waitresses have a crazy streak to them. God bless em, the waitresses mostly but the restaurant business as well.


we avoided eating in restaurants as well...1 lunch on a patio in the middle of summer, and our anniversary on the patio at a Keg on Sept 16. A week and a half later, the local newspaper reported a covid case in one of the staff at that Keg 
nobody there contacted us, so presumably it occurred after our visit or with someone who wasnt on shift that night. hopefully.

in fairness thats the closest Ive come to covid that I know of. other than some workers at a partner company in Arizona, I dont know anyone whos had it.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Diablo said:


> where these parties at?
> View attachment 330309


You can always throw your own but I think the virtual ones wouldn't be as much fun as the in home ones.




__





Fantasia™ | Fantasia


Fantasia: host your own Adult Parties. Fantasia Party 1-800-363-6068 contact a consultant to view catalogs online, to purchase home party products or to become a consultant.




www.fantasia.ca


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

Wardo said:


> One of those rearranged the finger prints on my right hand when I was about 5 years old.


Reagranged my arm and possibly my head when I was 5 at the cabin. No railing on the stairs right above it.


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

Diablo said:


> Im not so old as to remember those days lol...But i do remember the "julia child" era...everything was so bland and over cooked...basic meat and potatos, which is fine, but...boring.
> I put in a Wolf 36" stove with center grill in my old house, and I miss it  Had to put in a nearly industrial hood fan as well to move all the heat and smoke lol
> people that put in high end appliances, 2 dishwashers etc may not be the best cooks (or maybe some of them are?) but i bet they entertain a lot and have great parties!



Exactly. Nostalgia manipulates your emotions. 

We've never had a better culinary experience than now. Even your local pup knows that frozen burgers and shitty wings/tenders doesn't pass for food.

At one time, cinnamon was vastly more valuable than gold. Right now saffron, vanilla, avacado toast, kobe beef - also worth more than gold. Sort of.


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

Electraglide said:


> You can always throw your own but I think the virtual ones wouldn't be as much fun as the in home ones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


onlyfans.com dissagrees. Sorry about your disposable income EG. lol. Paying for virtual pandemic pussy is booming.




Electraglide said:


> Yeah i remember when microwaves came out and having potatoes and other things exploding all over the place. Mom bought one in '66 or so. Big enough to cook a 25lb turkey in it tho that never happened. It didn't get used much after the initial month or so. Most got used for making popcorn and nuking cheese sandwiches. About the same as they do now. Bootleather roasts, overcooked vegetables and unedible food was usually what you got from them. As far as "culinary techniques" improving over the past 20 years....I doubt it. The spices and seasonings I use have been around for a hell of a long time. Most people just put more crap than is needed on their food thinking it improves the taste.
> This sounds like what the were spouting out at the Seattle Worlds Fair and the PNE and other fairs at the time.
> "a game changer, you could now microwave your roasts or be lazy and have yourself a perfectly cooked, savory salsberry steak with the push of a button." Followed by, "If you buy one right now, it's a limited time offer and don't tell my boss, I'll throw in......".


You just sort of proved my point. Food in your generation generally sucked without salt and oil.



Milkman said:


> They say this is not related to Covid-19, but I doubt it helped their situation. There seem to be too many of these clubs now to satisfy the remaining patrons. Same goes with churches.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They just built a modern hall marketed as a 'gastro pub' here. They are going under. I used to go to a couple in Vancouver for the free pool and reasonable junk food, but it was totally a hipster scene keeping it alive. Nobody was over 40.



Electraglide said:


> Or boring parties. All the right knives and forks and gently sipping wine. Mind you back in the day we'd invite some cookware salesman over to cook a meal for 10 or 15 and then someone would buy a pot. The next day was the electrolux salesman's turn. I never found a lot of julia's food bland, just too many sauces but what do you expect from a spy who graduated cordon bleu in the early 50's. Around home it was more like these ladies were cooking.
> View attachment 330249
> 
> Most of the time when either grandmother used a recipe they used their mother's cook books. Mom was the same.


There's a lot to unpack here.

Mother has a story of trading a very early model saxophone in exchange for an elextrolux in one of those parties, which would be 10's of g's now.. Husband was a little upset..

Evolution. Sometimes the next generation is better. But sometimes not always. Where do we stand?

My parents are your gen. Now that they are retired, smarter, richer, wiser than 25, their parties are more wild than ever. The new theme to thier big events is an ambulance showing up over heart attacts, strokes, edible overdoses, mushroom intake etc. They have parties with half a dozen bands over a day or two, catered or overzealous chefs with million dollar homes hosting. My folks are middle class, just so happens step-pops is a great bass player.

Are those the two british women on the show where they would drink, cackle and chain smoke over the food? I have vague memories of that from my aunt.

Julia's food is often over complicated, and very fucking bland compared to now. Do you need to know how to do a bondage de-boning on a chicken or turkey with shitty sauce and sides to make it great?? No, you don't. This is why a modern cooking youtube or blog 'sells' more views that her book ever could.





Diablo said:


> where these parties at?
> View attachment 330309


"When y'all wake up, you'll notice we gave ya'll a free years jello, and a pound cake!" Google it.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

TheYanChamp said:


> onlyfans.com dissagrees. Sorry about your disposable income EG. lol. Paying for virtual pandemic pussy is booming.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice thing is I have disposible income. You can watch your virtual pussy and get stains all over the rug and tv screen, I'll take the one that slips around me nicely and from what I see on the stroll around here sales of actually pussy are booming. A lot of middle class guys around 45 to 55 years old buying and trying to play let's make a dope deal too but fail at that. As far as salt and oil, I seem to recall those around out place but the popcorn was made with melted butter from our cows and done in a pot on the stove. A sax that's worth 10 g's now was probably worth about the same as an electrolux, especially if no one blew the sax. Doesn't really matter what you think it's worth now. Most of my friends still have the same parties we had in our twenties.....a bunch of good friends getting together, smoking and drinking some, riding and just having a good time with good food. A couple of guys bring their guitars and the parties might last a couple of hours or 4 or 5 days and a lot of them are still out in the bush. No one worries to much if a bit of beer gets spilled. We don't do theme parties that are catered with chefs. Everyone knows everyone and has for years.....except for maybe a date or two. 
Ah, Clarissa and Jennifer.....they cook damned good food. Working class people eat it, not the "well to do" middle class. You can have your life style, I'll keep mine.
BTW a quick google for the last statement brings up a bunch of recipe pages. I prefer this one which is close to the Two Fat Ladies recipe and the same basic recipe that's been used in my family for at least 4 generations. Goes nicely with a good roast, blood rare.








Yorkshire Pudding Recipe


Served with roast beef, traditional Yorkshire pudding is an eggy batter poured over beef drippings. It then puffs up dramatically! Humble ingredients come together for a recipe that makes a roast dinner extra special.




www.simplyrecipes.com


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

It wasn't a brag or anything. Ha, that's hardly my lifestyle and my parents are just middle class. They just happen to have many rich friends who always played music, but are now semi pro now that they are retired.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

potential bad news in the US








Guitar Center is preparing to potentially file for bankruptcy


Guitar Center, after a series of financial troubles this year, is reportedly preparing to file for a potential bankruptcy.




guitar.com


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Found an unused L&M gift card in my desk this week and for some reason my first thought was I should use it before the firm goes tits up. That's pretty dark and fatalistic thinking for me. No way I'm driving to the city so I made an online order for picks. I don't really expect L&M to die, but I do wonder about their less profitable stores.


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## brucew (Dec 30, 2017)

While in regina heard on the radio a few days ago the "regina restauranter's"(or something like that) did an internal poll. If remember correctly they figure 10-15% of restaurant's in the city are gone, 48% said they are losing money and something like 65% of respondents thought they would survive, "if" there's no second lockdown.
Stopped for a beer in a pub/restaurant place, asked bartender how they were doing, his response? "Well, I still have a job.....for now".

Also read of an Ont plumber who has tons of work but can't finish jobs because can't get materials.

I suspect most sectors of business have similar stories. You can't shut down factories and supply lines for months, not plant veg or harvest fruit and not have it show up on the shelves eventually. Read a press release from Ragu a month or so ago: no longer shipping to Canada and warned US customers there will be shortages. Tomato's don't get planted they can't be harvested.

I really hope they don't lock everything down again. Lot's of people have lost everything already. 

Once this is over it's going to be a very tough recovery, and I don't think any gov't here has fully realized that.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Diablo said:


> potential bad news in the US
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They've been having financial problems for years. From what I gather, they've been on life support for a few years now.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

High/Deaf said:


> I read, on hi-fi sites, people wanting recommendations on what speakers to buy. Speakers are the most 'personal' of all components in a system (besides the playing material, I suppose) and can't be selected by committee. You have to experience them in the room and not over your computer speakers and youtube.
> 
> And yet, people really want to buy something like good hi-fi speakers without experiencing them. When told to go audition, they say there aren't any hi-fi shops to listen to speakers anymore. Then they say that's not really a problem, they don't actually need a store because they were gonna order the speaker on-line anyways. They don't see themselves as the author of their own problems. I suspect that's where a lot of businesses are going.
> 
> "You don't know what you've got till it's gone....."


I've ordered some decent speakers and subs from an online retailer that gives a 60 day in home audition. So you listen\read online reviews, ask questions and try to get a general idea then take advantage of the in home audition.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I found myself revisiting this matter earlier this week.

If I go to a local music store (or call in a curbside order) for something as ubiquitous as a freaking 500k pot and they have none on hand but offer to order them for me, at three times the price I can get with a Canadian on-line vendor (such as Next Gen)....

EPIC FAIL.

I keep trying to support these stores but it's getting harder.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I found myself revisiting this matter earlier this week.
> 
> If I go to a local music store (or call in a curbside order) for something as ubiquitous as a freaking 500k pot and they have none on hand but offer to order them for me, at three times the price I can get with a Canadian on-line vendor (such as Next Gen)....
> 
> ...


I was recently informed by the local music store to expect an ~ 30% increase in many guitar parts.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

greco said:


> I was recently informed by the local music store to expect an ~ 30% increase in many guitar parts.



You know Dave, I am prepared to accept a premium for convenience. I will pay $3 bucks a loaf for normal bread at a convenience store if for some reason I failed to plan well and need one quickly.

I was quoted $17 for one 500k pot from L & M, and a week to receive two of them.

I just ordered 9 of basically the same pot from an online Canadian vendor for about $4 each and I'll have them just as quickly.

If you expect to support a physical store I just don't see much incentive for me to just pass the item through a stores process just to add SGA & P.

I would have paid the dang $17 each and sucked it up. My fault for not planning well and running myself out


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

my local guitar stores are still pretty well stocked, I'm happy to see this and I'm happy to visit. honestly feel like the Covid hasn't got them down, stock or staff

some other local places I'm getting fed up with. stock is non-existent, service is getting worse and the obvious chip on their shoulder is getting to me, they've been doing phenomenal business in the pandemic so they don't seem to care as much. my bike place, meh. my golf place, meh. my hardware store, meh. my fishing store, kinda meh, but I still enjoy the company of the old dudes


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

If the store has expertise and want to establish a relationship that lasts rather than just make a sale and get you out the door I will support them and even pay a premium. Small “boutique” businesses will always have a place. Big box like Best Buy, possibly Long and McQuade, etc. Will have a harder and harder time competing against Amazon. I recently needed some obscure plumbing parts. I went to all the local stores, Home Depot, Canadian Tire, Rona, etc. I phoned a couple specialty plumbing places in Vancouver an hour away. They all basically laughed at me and wanted to sell me a whole new faucet and a toilet. I found the parts on Amazon. They were here within a week. I saved hundreds of dollars. That’s pretty hard to compete with. On the other hand a local guitar player started selling guitars and supplies out of his wife’s yoga studio. He charges $17 for strings that are not my favourite brand. I have swtiched to his brand and don’t mind paying his price for the convenience of not driving an hour to the nearest Long and McQuade. The bonus is he usually has some cool used guitars I can play and he likes talking about gear. I got to play an SG I sold him five years ago. Never should have sold that one.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

vadsy said:


> ...stock is non-existent...


To be fair, that's honestly the biggest struggle for most places right now... There are a combination factors.

1) An unexpected and massive increase in demand.
- In Canada, online sales doubled out of nowhere when the pandemic hit, and have continued to grow since. Some industries have seen a near 400% increase that is directly related to COVID.

2) Heavy factory/manufacturing delays.
- The early temporary pandemic shutdowns and reduced work capacity following those shutdowns have caused some serious delays in manufacturing. Some factories permanently shut down because they couldn't handle being closed for so long or operating on reduced capacity afterwards. I can't speak for all industries, but we've seen turnover times for many products go from 1-2 months to 4-6 months.

3) Worldwide raw material shortage of a number of key materials used to manufacture, well, nearly everything.
- This is due to a combination of the massive increase in demand and delayed operations due to shutdowns/reduced capacity.

It's a pretty deadly combination, in terms of keeping reliable stock levels.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

jbealsmusic said:


> To be fair, that's honestly the biggest struggle for most places right now... There are a combination factors.
> 
> 1) An unexpected and massive increase in demand.
> - In Canada, online sales doubled out of nowhere when the pandemic hit, and have continued to grow since. Some industries have seen a near 400% increase that is directly related to COVID.
> ...


I appreciate the detailed and experience based perspective.

At the end of the day however, YOUR company is able to supply me with basic components of good quality at a reasonable price, AND with all the tech support and advice I need.

Neither of the two local music stores have been able to match that.

I'll acknowledge that supply chains are in disarray, but I like a company that can adapt and overcome as the saying goes.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

jbealsmusic said:


> To be fair, that's honestly the biggest struggle for most places right now... There are a combination factors.
> 
> 1) An unexpected and massive increase in demand.
> - In Canada, online sales doubled out of nowhere when the pandemic hit, and have continued to grow since. Some industries have seen a near 400% increase that is directly related to COVID.
> ...


I realize this, it isn't anything new. Just saying that some business are handling it better than others and when this is over it'll reflect how I choose to do business with them.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I appreciate the detailed and experience based perspective.
> 
> At the end of the day however, YOUR company is able to supply me with basic components of good quality at a reasonable price, AND with all the tech support and advice I need.
> 
> ...


The title of the thread refers to "bricks and mortar" stores. Next Gen is more reflective of the more contemporary approach to retail: namely a warehouse that advertises on-line and ships, rather than a retail space with display and sales staff. In other words, more Amazon than Eaton's.

I don't know if that was a matter of Jon being visionary, or simply adopting the business strategy that he saw others using successfully. But it has allowed him to survive. As he points out, though, many of the things that have afflicted bricks-and-mortar outlets have also afflicted his business; chiefly supply-chain issues.

Certainly any business needs to recognize its limitations and optimal market sector. One can't try out pedals or guitars by mail or on-line. You need a bricks-and-mortar outlet for that. You DON'T need to "try out" potentiometers, strings, knobs, switches, etc. I understand why a store might wish to convey a full-service image, but why not simply have a contractual agreement with a supplier who has the stock and relevant knowledge and can ship direct to the customer? Why can't a customer walk into L&M, inquire about a part, and the sales clerk directs them immediately to a place like Next Gen, flips the monitor around to face the customer, and the part arrives at the customer's home in a few days via Canada Post? L&M doesn't have to waste space or staff training on such things, won't have to leave the customer wondering when it will come in, and it won't detract from the store's reputation and image, because after all, they hooked you up with the part *right away*.

It can't always work that smoothly, but there is no reason why there can't be a symbiotic relationship between *some* kinds of bricks-and-mortar and *some* kinds of online-plus-warehouse businesses.

And as vadsy said: some businesses are handling things better than others at this time.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

mhammer said:


> ... Why can't a customer walk into L&M, inquire about a part, and the sales clerk directs them immediately to a place like Next Gen, flips the monitor around to face the customer, and the part arrives at the customer's home in a few days via Canada Post? ...


That actually does happen... We ship directly to customers on behalf of other dealers as part of our wholesale/dealer program. I'd rather help Brick and Mortar stores than contribute to their demise. I know how tough it is.

It's also why I opt for trying to connect with competing businesses to work with them, rather than just immediately stomping on their market share.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Are you guys still finding shortages in stores?
other than bikes, I thought things were pretty much caught up by now...even Lysol wipes


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

jbealsmusic said:


> That actually does happen... We ship directly to customers on behalf of other dealers all the time. It's one of the things we offer with our wholesale/dealer program. I'd rather help Brick and Mortar stores than contribute to their demise. I know how tough it is.
> 
> It's also why I opt for trying to connect with competing businesses to work with them, rather than just immediately stomping on their market share.


And that's why you *deserve* to survive all this misery.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

mhammer said:


> The title of the thread refers to "bricks and mortar" stores. Next Gen is more reflective of the more contemporary approach to retail: namely a warehouse that advertises on-line and ships, rather than a retail space with display and sales staff. In other words, more Amazon than Eaton's.
> 
> I don't know if that was a matter of Jon being visionary, or simply adopting the business strategy that he saw others using successfully. But it has allowed him to survive. As he points out, though, many of the things that have afflicted bricks-and-mortar outlets have also afflicted his business; chiefly supply-chain issues.
> 
> ...



The point is, if I can order basic guitar parts which any guitar shop should have on hand and I can receive them within a week,

SO CAN THE BRICKS AND MORTAR STORES.

Sorry for the caps but I think it's simpler than you're making it seem.

The bricks and mortar stores should be adapting and serving their customers needs. As I said, I am willing to pay a premium for your store to stock some basic inventory.

I'm not complaining about pricing or slight delays. I'm saying they are completely failing to recognize a very serious threat to their business.

There's no reason other than failing to act, that they can't stock pretty much every component found on your average Strat, or Tele. We can start there.

It may sound like I'm really pissed about it. I'm not. I'm just surprised.


----------



## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Milkman said:


> The point is, if I can order basic guitar parts which any guitar shop should have on hand and I can receive them within a week,
> 
> SO CAN THE BRICKS AND MORTAR STORES.
> 
> ...


In my experience, if a store doesn't have basic parts and they say they're having issues getting them, then the business is failing and you should just avoid dealing with them.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

J.I.T. and lean manufacturing processes have met their nemisis.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

Milkman said:


> The point is, if I can order basic guitar parts which any guitar shop should have on hand and I can receive them within a week,
> 
> SO CAN THE BRICKS AND MORTAR STORES.
> 
> ...


It's not that easy. Most stores deal with wholesalers. They usually have a minimum order to meet to get both pricing and shipping. Smaller stores order maybe once a month, at most once a week. I spent twenty years running retail stores. The labour involved in ordering one or two parts at a time will kill your bottom line. It should be better with an up to date inventory system that automatically creates purchase orders but even with that it will take longer for a store to get in a part than if you order it online yourself. I'm not making excuses. I'm just telling it like it is for small retailers. They have a very hard time competing with online. Their money is in the high end specialty items. To make $5.00 on a $10.00 part is not worth their time except to add to a weekly or monthly order.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Milkman said:


> The point is, if I can order basic guitar parts which any guitar shop should have on hand and I can receive them within a week,
> 
> SO CAN THE BRICKS AND MORTAR STORES.
> 
> ...


Understood. You and I can order stuff in quickly because we know where to get it from and what to expect, with respect to speed, quality, etc. Some customers may lack that knowledge, and assume, naively, that the store where they bought their budget gear from, can carry such stuff. The store itself - depending on aptitude of management - may similarly assume, naively, that customers either don't need the stuff or have no particular expectations about what ought to be obtainable, what it ought to cost, and how long it ought to take. Like you say, though, the store may be failing to recognize a serious threat to their business.

It's like they never heard the story of how Eaton's went belly up because they didn't know about on-line shopping.

The story of department stores tanking is a universal one (we were saddened to learn a longstanding chain of quality department stores in the UK - Debenham's - is closing), and is the reason why Guitar Centre is tanking. Quite simply, you can't carry_ everything_ all the time, especially when the choices are so vast and people know about all those alternative choices. I think there will continue to be a role for bricks and mortar instrument stores, but they have to learn to fit into the ecology of contemporary retail and consumer behaviour. The irritation milkman reported reflects a failure by the store to acknowledge that.


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

Milkman said:


> The point is, if I can order basic guitar parts which any guitar shop should have on hand and I can receive them within a week,
> 
> SO CAN THE BRICKS AND MORTAR STORES.


A perfect example is a simple guitar speaker. And seeing that L&M is the biggest retailer you would think they would stock them. Even if their largest store in BC for example would carry a big inventory that can then be shipped to their other lower mainland stores ( they have twice a week internal L&M delivery picking up and dropping off)

But no, most often a descent speaker has to be ordered and then usually 2-4 weeks before you see it. Other companies offer next day delivery and quite often in stock.

That is what I just don't understand, if they are catering to guitar players get someone in the top management to oversee that side of the buisness. I believe they are losing so much annually due to this weak link.

And never mind a good selection of power / preamp tubes, volume / tone pots, the list goes on....
and this issue was PRE pandemic btw


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I don't expect L&M to order a pot from digikey and mark it up a buck or two. It's literally not worth their time to make 2 bucks profit on an item. If they were selling 1000 pots a day that would make sense, but they probably sell 1 per week, so they charge 17 bucks for a 5 dollar item. 

I was watching a Texas Toast guitars video a while back and they were saying that even places like Hipshot is almost out of stock. if they sell 60 items they only have stock on about 5 items of the total inventory. We have this bridge and these 3 tuners styles in stock. At one point they could not order a truss rod to save their lives.

jbeals mentioned a few reasons but there is also the fact that shipping containers are sitting on cargo carriers and not being unloaded. And I'm reading tons of stories about how many of those containers are ending up at the bottom of the ocean because of bad weather high winds etc...


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Kerry Brown said:


> It's not that easy. Most stores deal with wholesalers. They usually have a minimum order to meet to get both pricing and shipping. Smaller stores order maybe once a month, at most once a week. I spent twenty years running retail stores. The labour involved in ordering one or two parts at a time will kill your bottom line. It should be better with an up to date inventory system that automatically creates purchase orders but even with that it will take longer for a store to get in a part than if you order it online yourself. I'm not making excuses. I'm just telling it like it is for small retailers. They have a very hard time competing with online. Their money is in the high end specialty items. To make $5.00 on a $10.00 part is not worth their time except to add to a weekly or monthly order.


True enough, but then the customer will question why they should bother buying a guitar from them if they won't even bother ordering a little part.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

butterknucket said:


> True enough, but then the customer will question why they should bother buying a guitar from them if they won't even bother ordering a little part.


Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Small retail has been struggling since way before the pandemic. It is very hard to get financing. Most don’t have the cash flow to deal with more than a few wholesalers who if they are lucky give them 30 days credit. Most of the time it is pay in advance. They have to have stuff that sells regularly in stock. They can afford to sit on some inventory where they make a good markup. It is all about percentages. If they stock a million dollars of inventory a percentage of that will be financed and needs to sell before it comes due.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Kerry Brown said:


> Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Small retail has been struggling since way before the pandemic. It is very hard to get financing. Most don’t have the cash flow to deal with more than a few wholesalers who if they are lucky give them 30 days credit. Most of the time it is pay in advance. They have to have stuff that sells regularly in stock. They can afford to sit on some inventory where they make a good markup. It is all about percentages. If they stock a million dollars of inventory a percentage of that will be financed and needs to sell before it comes due.


I was playing devil's advocate. Unfortunately, I gave up on the local guitar shops here years ago because of huge markups and total runaround with ordering things. They're all gone now.


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

knight_yyz said:


> I don't expect L&M to order a pot from digikey and mark it up a buck or two. It's literally not worth their time to make 2 bucks profit on an item. If they were selling 1000 pots a day that would make sense, but they probably sell 1 per week, so they charge 17 bucks for a 5 dollar item.


sure I get that.
But for example in my case, when they do not have a speaker in stock ( a quality speaker, usually buy at least 2 a year it seems) I buy elsewhere and gee, I can also get 3 -4 sets of quality power tubes, same day shipping ( my yearly average) and at least 2-3 pickup re & re's.( pots / switches / pickguards, etc so I guess for myself as a customer they lost out on at least $1200 per year. I am sure they would have made some profit ??

I think they are in for a testy ride with everyone experiencing online shopping and realizing the same products are pretty much everywhere. I know L&M had a great year, but what goes up , comes down. They need to implement a good stratagy to survive long term. And the thing is they have that opportunity right now to get on top of it.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I get the issues, and reasons, etc.
But some things I much prefer to look at in person/try in person/etc before buying
So I do hope to see some sort of brick & mortar stores continue.


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