# amplify me baby



## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

I have a friend who's coming to the end of amplifying his acoustic guitar by pointing a mic at it. It sounds good but he'd like to move around a little bit and feedback is an issue. 

For somebody who's just getting into running an acoustic guitar through pickups and a pre-amp what do you all suggest as a starting point? He'd like to keep playing his current guitar which doesn't have a pickup/preamp onboard. 

I've got an early 90s Takamine with many miles on it and a Zoom A3. Between the two of them I get a sound that I'm really happy with. The downside of the A3, like pretty much everything I've tried from Zoom, is that it's got so many little knobs and menus and adjustments that it's hard to use especially to adjust on stage. My buddy is a bit of a luddite and his eyes glaze over just looking at the A3 so I don't know that something like that is a good option for him. 

I got started amplifying acoustic in the '80s with a Dean Markley soundhole mag pickup plugged straight into a DI. It's a sound. Maybe something like that run through a Boss AC-3 and DI? I've never tried an AC-3. 

Anyway. Looking for suggestions to get somebody up and running amplified acoustic. 

j


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Fishman Loudbox. Not sure how loud you need to go but the mini is the smallest at 60 watts. They have 4 models to choose from


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## Guest (Jul 24, 2019)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> He'd like to keep playing his current guitar which doesn't have a pickup/preamp onboard.


Does he mind holes being drilled into it? (endpin, under saddle piezo)
Fishman, LR Baggs, K&K and Schatten are a few that come to mind.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

I have a Dimarzio Black Angel available


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

knight_yyz said:


> Fishman Loudbox. Not sure how loud you need to go but the mini is the smallest at 60 watts. They have 4 models to choose from


Not super loud. He plays in his church and we do small venue stuff together. No drum kit. Two guitars, cello, keys, and voices. Sometimes a cajon. 

A loudbox is a good idea and he could line out of it into the sound system to give the sound guy some level control and use the amp as a monitor. 

What for the pickup itself? You can still get the Dean Markley soundhold ones I had back in the day but I haven't used one in a long time. Remember those Dean Markley stick on button pickups? They were great in their own way. I used to have 3 of them plus the soundhole run through a 4 channel powered mixer. It was complicated setup but at least as I recall it sounded very good. That was back in the "i wanna be michael hedges" days

j


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

he'd prefer not to drill any holes. the guitar isn't great but he's attached to it for sentimental reasons

i think soundhole is the way to go and then when that runs out he can get a better guitar with a piezo and preamp

j


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

rollingdam said:


> I have a Dimarzio Black Angel available:
> 
> View attachment 264288


that's an option 
say more
j


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I keep forgetting that those little 5 watt amps from companies like Vox etc can play acoustic as well. The speakers are small enough to avoid feedback normally incurred when an acoustic is plugged into a big electrci amp. My Taylor sounds killer on the Vox DA5 clean channel. And it has mic in, aux in etc... and an attenuator and it can run on batteries. And they are much cheaper used . I have the Vox DA5 and a Vox Mini 3 G2 and the acoustic sounds fine through both.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

knight_yyz said:


> I keep forgetting that those little 5 watt amps from companies like Vox


My sister has a Vox AC4 that she uses for viola with a pickup and a Hagstrom Viking. She loves it. I thought she was nuts when she got it but it does just what she needs and sounds good. I have a Roland JC-55 from the 80s that is a killer acoustic guitar amp. 

The churches and small venues that my buddy plays almost all have house PA with very quiet background noise levels and the sound guy wants to balance everything from the back. Stage volumes are very low. I'm kinda getting off track with this little amps discussion cuz I'm tempted to go that way myself but I think what he needs is a way to DI into the house with an approximation of an acoustic sound that still lets him wander around on the stage more than a boom mic pointed at the soundhole. 

j


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

or , an acoustic powered pickup , 
plugged into a wireless transmitter , 
dropped into the sound hole with some foam padding/ 2 sided tape ...
then toss the sound guy the receiver, to plug into the PA system 

amplified, tailored sound and wander all over the stage .


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Fishman Loudbox seems to be the preferred acoustic amp these days. I am sure it's not the be all and end all but it fills most needs very well.


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

Mjs has a new passive pickup. Worth checking out.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Yorkville makes a nice "Loudbox" styled acoustic amp. I picked one up just to accompany my grand daughter at one of her class talent shows, but now we use it in the house as a karaoke box.

It sounds great (lots of volume for my tastes) both with the guitar and takes a Shure 58 like a pro.

Traynor Amps


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Milkman said:


> picked one up just to accompany my grand daughter at one of her class talent shows, but now we use it in the house as a karaoke box.
> View attachment 264354


I think I've been using the words "small venue" in a confusing way. The spaces he plays in would be 100-300 seating capacity soft seat venues - like a small community hall or church - so too big for a little amp from the stage only and too small for an amp on the stage plus monitors plus the house PA competing with each other. I've found playing church type venues that the sound guys tend to be kind of obsessive about keeping control of the levels from the booth and they have kick ass sound systems for the size of the venue with a lot of monitors and typically very quiet audience and a fairly resonant room so it's a tricky balance getting the levels. I know another guy who sings southern gospel style and asks for a fairly loud monitor feed for his own sense of wellbeing. At venues where he plays they sometimes take him right out of the house PA since the monitor bounces back and is borderline too loud enough for the house by the time he's happy with what he's hearing on stage. 

j


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> I think I've been using the words "small venue" in a confusing way. The spaces he plays in would be 100-300 seating capacity soft seat venues - like a small community hall or church - so too big for a little amp from the stage only and too small for an amp on the stage plus monitors plus the house PA competing with each other. I've found playing church type venues that the sound guys tend to be kind of obsessive about keeping control of the levels from the booth and they have kick ass sound systems for the size of the venue with a lot of monitors and typically very quiet audience and a fairly resonant room so it's a tricky balance getting the levels. I know another guy who sings southern gospel style and asks for a fairly loud monitor feed for his own sense of wellbeing. At venues where he plays they sometimes take him right out of the house PA since the monitor bounces back and is borderline too loud enough for the house by the time he's happy with what he's hearing on stage.
> 
> j


In that case a powered PA cab would be ideal. Yorkville also makes great speakers like that. Something with a 12" speaker and a horn would be fine, maybe 300~ 1000 watts.

For acoustic guitar you want lots of headroom IMO.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Milkman said:


> In that case a powered PA cab would be ideal. Yorkville also makes great speakers like that. Something with a 12" speaker and a horn would be fine, maybe 300~ 1000 watts.
> 
> For acoustic guitar you want lots of headroom IMO.


Once he gets to the point of amplifying the signal it's out of his hands. He needs a retrofit pickup and enough signal processing (bit of reverb, EQ, echo, compression, whatever) that he can hand it off to a DI and they can adjust levels as they see fit. House PA takes care of making it more loud and feeding to more monitors than they really need. 

The loudbox type amps have nice modelling not too complicated but he doesn't really need the amp part of it. I wish he liked my Zoom better there's some good stomp box options like that but they tend to be kinda fiddly to use and set up at least the ones i've tried. 

Anybody used an AC3 or something similar with a stomp switch and two knobs that's all? I've heard people use them with electric guitars to fake an acoustic part but haven't tried it to re-acoustic a signal from a piezo pickup. 

j


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> Once he gets to the point of amplifying the signal it's out of his hands. He needs a retrofit pickup and enough signal processing (bit of reverb, EQ, echo, compression, whatever) that he can hand it off to a DI and they can adjust levels as they see fit. House PA takes care of making it more loud and feeding to more monitors than they really need.
> 
> The loudbox type amps have nice modelling not too complicated but he doesn't really need the amp part of it. I wish he liked my Zoom better there's some good stomp box options like that but they tend to be kinda fiddly to use and set up at least the ones i've tried.
> 
> ...


He'll still need a monitor.

PA is PA

That's a different ball game.

Yes, of course he needs a pickup. Some guys will plug straight into a DI but most guys I know still want control of their stage level.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Milkman said:


> He'll still need a monitor.
> 
> PA is PA
> 
> That's a different ball game.


Yeah but monitor levels and PA levels are both controlled by the FoH guy and at a venue where it's kind of over-monitored to start with and the singer says "can i hear more guitar in my monitor" and the guitar player already has an amp pointed at him for his own benefit it adds to that problem they already have of the monitor levels being louder than the mains. The first place I ran across that I thought it was unique to those people and that room but now I think that churches and similar venues are often like that. Stage is large and spread out everybody with their own monitor wedge. Lots of investment in sound systems so probably more PA gear than they really need looking for a pop/rock band sound in what is otherwise a super quiet room so there's no need to volume up over crowd chatter like you would in a bar or even a coffeehouse setting but the sound needs to be full in the room matching the singers. 

Anyway. I need to focus in a bit here. Which signal processing gear should I set him up with so that he can hand off a useable signal to the sound board for them to amplify as they see fit?

j


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> Which signal processing gear should I set him up with so that he can hand off a useable signal to the sound board for them to amplify as they see fit?


I really like my LR Baggs Venue DI. Very easy and quick to adjust. The only thing I don’t like is the built in tuner. It is quite slow. The notch filter to tune out feedback has been a life saver in a couple of venues. Most of the sound guys I’ve worked with love it. I let them add reverb or whatever effects. They know the room better than me.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> Yeah but monitor levels and PA levels are both controlled by the FoH guy and at a venue where it's kind of over-monitored to start with and the singer says "can i hear more guitar in my monitor" and the guitar player already has an amp pointed at him for his own benefit it adds to that problem they already have of the monitor levels being louder than the mains. The first place I ran across that I thought it was unique to those people and that room but now I think that churches and similar venues are often like that. Stage is large and spread out everybody with their own monitor wedge. Lots of investment in sound systems so probably more PA gear than they really need looking for a pop/rock band sound in what is otherwise a super quiet room so there's no need to volume up over crowd chatter like you would in a bar or even a coffeehouse setting but the sound needs to be full in the room matching the singers.
> 
> Anyway. I need to focus in a bit here. Which signal processing gear should I set him up with so that he can hand off a useable signal to the sound board for them to amplify as they see fit?
> 
> j


Sorry, I didn’t read as carefully as I should have. My bad.

I’ll defer to others as far as an aftermarket pickup/preamp. I have a few acoustic instruments that have onboard pickups with preamps and even tuners.

They work really well with PAs. Some even have XLR direct out.

As for DIs, I like passive simple DIs that don’t colour the sound at all, but then again, that's part of the PA.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

I was reading a thread on another forum of a guy struggling with feedback and sound who was trying IRs.

I’m not sure how or if that worked out for him.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Kerry Brown said:


> I really like my LR Baggs Venue DI. Very easy and quick to adjust. The only thing I don’t like is the built in tuner. It is quite slow. The notch filter to tune out feedback has been a life saver in a couple of venues. Most of the sound guys I’ve worked with love it. I let them add reverb or whatever effects. They know the room better than me.


I've thought about that one. I'm checking into one. 

J


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Fishman Rare Earth/Katana 50 or 100










If I need to play loud I solve feedback problems with a sound hole plug trimmed to allow room for the pick up.











__
https://soundcloud.com/https%3A%2F%2Fsoundcloud.com%2Fuser-302874328%2Fnight-riders-lament-non-profit-cover


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Old-school acoustic preamp, giving you full control of the most important parameters. Even has a loop and can be powered off the console (phantom power) or by battery. Built like a tank and can be had used for $150-ish.











The KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) alternative. Highly regarded interface without a lot of knobs to mess with.


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## Greg Ellis (Oct 1, 2007)

If he's on a budget, he might consider the Fishman Neo-D line of soundhole pickups. 

I like the sound of the single coil model a whole lot better than the humbucker (I have both), but the humbucker sure helps when you're fighting EMI.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

There are two discontinued acoustic guitar amps, which if you could find on the used market, would be the best move you could possibly make.
Keep your eyes peeled for them and if you see one of them do not hesitate.
Snap it up immediately before someone else does.
Don't quibble about the price, just buy it and count yourself lucky.

The first one is the Dean Markley UltraSound 250 Pro
For years this was the amp for the tone purist; the standard by which all others are judged.
I think it still is, actually; they're just not available anymore.
You won't find any mention of it on the Dean Markley site as it has been out of production for a while now.
They sold well initially but mostly to studio owners so once that market was done they stopped selling as the price was pretty high at around $1600 or so which meant the average Joe on the street felt it was too rich for their blood.
Worth every single penny though.
YouTube and guitar magazine reviews will be your best options if you wish to learn more about this amazing amp.

The other option is the one I chose, instead of the UltraSound.
It's not for tone purists looking for perfection in the recording studio.
It's for stage performers looking for versatility in a live situation.
The Genz Benz Shenandoah Pro Light (ShenProLT)
Actually anything in the Shenandoah line will be worth having if you can find it.
The beauty of the Shen is that it employs one 12AX7 in the preamp section (called Tube-FET) which can be dialed in or out with a separate knob, infinitely variably.
Like using a dedicated tube preamp on a vocal mic, it adds warmth and harmonics without losing detail or crispness.
You can dial it right out and have a more pure tone that UltraSound owners would prefer or you can crank it right up and get an almost magnetic-pickups kind of tone out of it.
Think Dean Markley ProMag.
I run it at about 30% - 50% depending on the room.
One of the better features I have noticed is that even without a soundhole dam the amp seems to resist feeding back.
With a soundhole dam you have to work at it to find feedback.
You have to go looking for it.
The very best thing about the amp is that my guitar sounds like my guitar.
I paid $1300 for mine at The Acoustic Music Shoppe and I think I got lucky there as they were already getting hard to find.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

BMW-KTM said:


> I paid xxx for mine at The Acoustic Music Shoppe and I think I got lucky


there was one of those things on local online classified asking a fraction of that i shudda looked into it more closely

Oops just looked it's not the one you mentioned it's a 35W Shenendoah Junior. No tube pre in that one and some smaller. 

j


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Churches and community arts centers are nothing but flourrescent fixtures and dimmable pot lights. More EMI per square inch than any other building I think. and tend to have poorly grounded electrical systems anyway for some reason with all the plugs around the stage on the same circuit. 

I've never tried the Neo D humbucker. Does it have a ghost coil or is it true humbucker? Sound is different in what ways?
j


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## Greg Ellis (Oct 1, 2007)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> I've never tried the Neo D humbucker. Does it have a ghost coil or is it true humbucker? Sound is different in what ways?
> j


To my ear, the humbucking version is a lot muddier, and sounds more like a magnetic pickup. I find that the single coil version has a lot more bite in the treble end of things, and has a more natural sound, more like the instrument itself.

I believe they use stacked coils to make a true humbucker for this product.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> there was one of those things on local online classified asking a fraction of that i shudda looked into it more closely
> 
> Oops just looked it's not the one you mentioned it's a 35W Shenendoah Junior. No tube pre in that one and some smaller.
> 
> j


I think I know the one. 
A 10" 35 watt version. 
It's on Reverb right now as well but I think it's too small and too limited and that's why that listing is a year old and still hasn't moved.
My Shen Pro LT has a 12" with 7 to 10 times the power.
Depending on what specs you read, mine can be listed as having 200 watts or 300 watts.
It makes no difference to me.
The amp is light weight and works well played quietly but it also pounds hard when you need it to.
Thing about mine that is different from the 35 watter is both channels are the same.
Each one could be a mic channel or an instrument channel at the features are identical on both sides.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

BMW-KTM said:


> My Shen Pro LT has a 12" with 7 to 10 times the power.


A lot of electric players are into small low wattage amps these days. It's hard to remember how much power it takes to push a wide spectrum clean sound like an acoustic guitar out into a 200 person room without distortion. 

I also have a certain sound in my head that's 'right' for acoustic guitar on stage. I spent a lot of time in the '90s listening to Stephen Fearing or Dan Crary or Ani DiFranco or Skydiggers on folk festival outdoor stages and in venues like the West End Cultural Center in a converted church in Winnipeg. There's a very particular amplified acoustic guitar sound that goes with those venues in that era and I still think happy thoughts when I hear it. I need to remember that just because I like it doesn't make it best and tastes do change over time. 

I get my best results pushing an acoustic through a modeler like my Zoom A3 and through the PA and let the electric guitars run through their little tube amps on stage. It takes a certain sound guy to work with a hybrid solution like that and electric players tend to make unhappy noises about lining out to the board although truth be told the band mix is better for the audience when everybody is lined out even if the guy with the 335 isn't in tone nirvana on the stage. 

j


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

Yes, 200 watts is about what you need for an acoustic amp if you're playing anything larger than a coffee house.
If I expect to be playing my acoustic on stage I always take my amp. No exceptions.
People sometimes wonder why when my signal will go to the board anyway.
My reasons are:
- I will have a stage monitor just like I would have with an electric guitar amp so I can hear myself.
That is non-negotiable as far as I am concerned.
Can't hear yourself when you are behind the house mains.
- I retain a fair bit of control over my sound. The sound guy gets my "post" line out, not my "pre" line out.
Also non-negotiable.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

BMW-KTM said:


> - I retain a fair bit of control


Ha ha I'm sure that's never an issue  

A couple of months ago I played a community fundraiser in rural Manitoba. One of the other acts showed up for sound check. It was two guys in I'd say their late 70s. One had a tele and the other had a p-bass. That's all. No amps, no effect, no nothing just two instrument cases. They each plugged into a house DI, got their levels where they liked them and it sounded amazing three minutes later. For starters they've been playing and singing together for decades and it was 60s rockabilly and classic country mostly so treble and clean plus the p-bass. It was so good. 

I talked to them afterwards and they said when they started performing in the early 60s the guitar player brought the amp and it had a jack for the mic and a jack for the guitar and that was it off you went the guitar amp was the house PA. They do the same thing now except somebody else brings the gear. They plug straight into the PA just like they always have as far as they're concerned. Guitar distortion means you haven't bought a big enough amplifier and those boxy old rural community halls are big reverb tanks to start with. 

I'm gonna go in tomorrow and get my buddy a Fishman neo-d pickup and whatever basic acoustic processor the music shop recommends to me that can add a bit of reverb or space to the sound and it'll be fine. When he gets beyond that setup he needs to get a better guitar for starters. 

j


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

Some acoustic specific units are kinda sketchy, Jeff.
(wink-wink, ya see what I did there?)
A few years ago I bought one called an Aural Exciter and it was a waste of money.
It didn't do anything that could not be done with a quick tweak of the EQ.
If you're going to by some kind of acoustic guitar processor just make sure you try before you buy.
That's all I'm saying.
Not always but sometimes it's just snake oil and placebos.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

BMW-KTM said:


> sometimes it's just snake oil and placebos.


In music gear !?!?!? I had no idea I'm so disappointed. Surely you jest. There's a Steve Earle song in there somewhere. 

That Zoom A3 box was the opposite way for me. I bought it on a whim, regretted it right away, then decided to use it live a few times just so it wasn't a complete waste of money before I sold it for peanuts. Each time I used it people would comment that the guitar tone was clearer and easier to hear than usual and it kinda grew on me over time and now I have presets for my old Takamine, 5th Ave, slide on a semi-hollow, and tele although I don't use that last one very much cuz I'd rather get buff lugging my Traynor around like a madman. I don't use it when I'm practicing at all but probably should so I could get the techy details worked out better. 

It sends a super hot signal out through the XLR. So hot that the board can hardly use it at most places even though it's level adjustable on the unit. I end up lining out of it into a stage DI which works a lot better. If I keep on liking it I'll look into putting some sort of attenuator before the XLR out cuz it would be easier.

j


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

Look into IRs, I’m sure it is the best bet to make those crappy pickups sound like guitars.


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## Guest (Aug 2, 2019)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> Zoom A3


I just recently acquired one too. Taking a bit to figure it out. Thank you U-tube. lol
Still getting the hang of it though.
Got any cool patch ideas that you can share?


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

laristotle said:


> any cool patch ideas that you can share?


not so much. tremolo, compression, hall reverb in different combinations. that whole modelling end is what i'd like to sit down with some more. 

the upper dial gets some good sounds for body types and the eq is good

i'd like to fool around with the different mic settings

there are some stereo delays and stereo reverbs that sound quite good what little i've played around at home but the places i play live run mono mains so i haven't tried them live 

to me the input settings for body type and dedicated first slot effect setting for body type are redundant. it's a way to advertise 3 presets but actually only have two useable

let me know if you discover good tricks. the youtube stuff i watched was some helfpful and some contradictory and all of that Zoom stuff is really fiddly with A LOT of tiny little buttons and difficult to navigate nested menus so it's a bit of a mental exercise just finding and revising basic setups

i've tried changing stuff live on the fly a time or two. bad idea. it's meant to set up first then play the gig, then tweak afterwards

j


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

So I ended up picking a Fishman neoD humbucker and a boss AD-2 acoustic preamp on the recommendation of the good folks at Ted Good Music in Brandon. I had some reservations about the AD2. It's super basic for controls. Not even a level which would bug me but my friend thinks it's great one less thing to think about while playing. Just ambience, resonance and a notch filter. Tried it this morning. Does it ever sound good. I wish the Fishman was slip in instead of attached with the screws pads but it will be fine. 

J


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