# Should I lower the action on my parlor?



## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

I have a Art & Lutherie Ami with gauge 10 that I find it difficult to play CAGED chords over the 7th fret. The distance from the 6th string to the 12 fret is 0.1398in (3.54mm) and the bridge is a bit tall too (picture). I would like to know your opinion on how I could make it more comfortable to play whether if it's lowering the bridge or any other idea I haven't think about.

Bridge








12 fret








Nut








Thanks in advance for any help, I play both electric and now more acoustic and I need to find a way to ease the transition from each other as much as possible without compromising the sound.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

*Wait until others respond*, as I'm not 100% sure. 
Would it be wise to sand a tiny bit off the bottom of the saddle, as it appears that you have the height to do so? Maybe that is too simple of a solution.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

greco said:


> *Wait until others respond*, as I'm not 100% sure.
> Would it be wise to sand a tiny bit off the bottom of the saddle, as it appears that you have the height to do so? Maybe that is too simple of a solution.


Which one is the saddle? The one on the bridge or the other?
I want to add that it seems to be fine on the first 4-6 frets 
Thx


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

The saddle is the white plastic piece that sits in the slot in the bridge. The strings go over top of it.

Adjusting the action on an acoustic can get very complicated, as there are many "factors" that must be considered. Apologies if you know this.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

greco said:


> The saddle is the white plastic piece that sits in the slot in the bridge. The strings go over top of it.
> 
> Adjusting the action on an acoustic can get very complicated, as there are many "factors" that must be considered. Apologies if you know this.


I'm learning right here right now. Appreciated!
I know you have experience and play acoustic guitar, by all means please go on


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## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

I am no expert. But I've had two Seagulls, both bought second hand. Each of them had either never been set up from the factory, or the previous owners liked the action high like that. On each of them, I popped the saddle out and sanded it down on a flat surface (removing quite a bit of material in fact) to get the action nice and low. 

I can see in the first picture that you posted that your saddle is looking about the same as mine did on both of my guitars.


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## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

Looking at your last pic too now. What's going on with the nut? Is there a shim under it? It doesn't look like it's sitting flat.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

Before doing anything that can't be undone I'd try adjusting the truss rod. Tighten it 1/8 turn and see if that fixes the problem. If it is better but still too high you could try another 1/8 turn. Be careful, don't go too far. If it is hard to turn don't force it.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Lord-Humongous said:


> Looking at your last pic too now. What's going on with the nut? Is there a shim under it? It doesn't look like it's sitting flat.


Yes! I completely forgot about that! It seem like a piece of paper in the upper half where the last 3 strings are. I never cared about removing it because it plays nice in that part. I don't know if that will affect the sound though.


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## jimmy c g (Jan 1, 2008)

bridge looks good ,saddle needs work imo


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

amagras said:


>


Somewhat off topic...Did you take this pic? Very impressive!!

Now..back to the topic.

Personally, I would start with the truss rod adjustment also.
The issue is, if you make too much of a change, you will end up with buzzing.
I do not have a lot of experience with setting up acoustics...but I have read a fair amount about it and have talked to many others who are experienced. 

Cheers

Dave


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

So, should I loosen the strings, take the saddle out and start sanding it a tiny bit at the time until I get to a good height? Any other advice out of experience?

Thanks for the fast responses, looks like I have a nice weekend project on my hands!


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I agree with checking the truss rod first. The nut needs work too. There should be no gaps under it, the shim should be full length of the nut and about 1/2 of the strings diameter should be above the nut, out of the slot. Fix the obvious short comings first. Only after that would I address the saddle. You can sand the bottom of the saddle to lower the action.....to a point. You want 1/8" to 1/4" of the saddle sticking up above the bridge for the correct angle to the pins. It looks like you have room to be able to lower it. Whatever you take off the saddle will lower your height at the 12th fret by 1/2 of that. 

So if you want to lower the strings 1/64, you take 1/32 off the bottom of the saddle. This is assuming that the string height at the 12th fret is equal on all strings. If one is low already, you may go too far and make it buzz. Check all the strings. It is possible that the strings heights have to be lowered by taking material off the top of the saddle if you have 1 low string already. Heights should transition smoothly from bass to treble.

Gibson factory specs:

Neck relief - .012"
String height at 12th fret - 6/64 on bass, 4/64 at treble
String height at first fret - .020 is considered OK on the 6th a bit lower on the treble side.

Martin specs:

Relief - .010"
string height at 12th - 3/32 - 7/64 on bass, 1/16 - 5/64 treble
String height at first fret - bass - .024 max, treble .016 min.

These are the factory recommendations. Many player like them a bit different but it is a good place to start/aim for. Less neck relief is pretty common as is lowered height at the nut and 12th fret. Careful, it is easy to go too far. 

Always do the neck relief first.

Re-check your work after the guitar has sat overnight also.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> You want *1/4" *minimum of the saddle sticking up above the bridge for the correct angle to the pins.


@Jim DaddyO This is a very large measurement IMO.
Are you sure you don't have a typo here?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

greco said:


> @Jim DaddyO This is a very large measurement IMO.
> Are you sure you don't have a typo here?


Otherwise, excellent and very informative post. Thanks for taking the time to be so thorough.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

Take a look at this and see if you think you might want to try it.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

1st step done: removed the piece of paper under the nut saddle, it was completely unnecessary. Next: adjust the truss rod. Will be back soon. 

Thx


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## jimmy c g (Jan 1, 2008)

have you sighted down the fingerboard to see how it lines up at the bridge? could have a bad neck angle, also,out here high humidity makes the top of acoustics rise causing high action, if your over 65% it could be a factor -+1 for doing it yourself!


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

The fingerboard and the top look fine. I adjusted the truss rod and that made a HUGE difference. I will play a bit and measure the height to report back.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

greco said:


> Somewhat off topic...Did you take this pic? Very impressive!!


Totally unintentional, there's usually a good illumination at this time of the day in here. Samsung galaxy s5 camera.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

It's 0.095in at the 12 fret now. Adjusting the truss rod more than that produces string buzz. 
I'm using a caliper. 

Is there anything else I can do now? Thx


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

amagras said:


> It's 0.095in at the 12 fret now. Adjusting the truss rod more than that produces string buzz.
> I'm using a caliper.
> 
> Is there anything else I can do now? Thx


Let it sit over night before doing anymore. Truss rod adjustments sometimes take a while to settle down.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

greco said:


> @Jim DaddyO This is a very large measurement IMO.
> Are you sure you don't have a typo here?



You are right, thanks, I corrected it.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

amagras said:


> It's 0.095in at the 12 fret now. Adjusting the truss rod more than that produces string buzz.
> I'm using a caliper.
> 
> Is there anything else I can do now? Thx


Are you using the correct procedure to check the relief? Capo at the first fret, press the string down at the fret where the neck meets the body, use a feeler gauge at the 7th fret.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Are you using the correct procedure to check the relief? Capo at the first fret, press the string down at the fret where the neck meets the body, use a feeler gauge at the 7th fret.


No, I'm just measuring with a caliper, no capo, no pressing at the last fret. I don't have a feeler gauge


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

amagras said:


> No, I'm just measuring with a caliper, no capo, no pressing at the last fret. I don't have a feeler gauge



Get some. They are cheap.

3-in. Leaf Feeler Gauge | Canadian Tire


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Get some. They are cheap.
> 
> 3-in. Leaf Feeler Gauge | Canadian Tire


Thanks, good excuse to get out of the studio for 2 hours as well.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

amagras said:


> No, I'm just measuring with a caliper, no capo, no pressing at the last fret. I don't have a feeler gauge


There are two different measurements being discussed. I think you are referring to the action at the 12th fret, which is "how high the strings are without fretting anything". 

The other is measuring the relief (or how concave the neck is from first to last fret). For that measurement you want to fret the string at the first fret and the fret where the neck meets the body (probably 14th). You are using the string as a straight edge and comparing that to how straight the neck is. The neck should have a very slight relief (clearance at the 7th fret). This measurement should be lower than the first measurement (action). If you have no clearance, the neck needs adjustment as well (the other way, of course).


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

to add; relief is personal preference. If you have a heavy touch, you may want more relief (or less if you have a slight left hand touch). I recently had the action on my acoustic lowered slightly and it feels great, but i feel i lost a bit tonewise. It's always a balance act.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Alex said:


> .....I recently had the action on my acoustic lowered slightly and it feels great, but i feel i lost a bit tonewise. ...


@Alex Could you please go into a bit more detail. I have never heard/read that this can happen and it interests me (N.B. This request is not intended to be argumentative/offending) . Many thanks.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

greco said:


> @Alex Could you please go into a bit more detail. I have never heard/read that this can happen and it interests me (N.B. This request is not intended to be argumentative/offending) . Many thanks.


Action and relief are personal preference. My "bible" for this stuff is "The players guide to guitar maintenance" by Dave Burrluck. I've had this book for a long time and it has served me well. It has glossy pictures to help mechanically challenged people like myself. Below is an excerpt on relief.

On tone - it's the feeling I had once I got the guitar back. Something was different, perhaps a bit brighter as well. I gave it a go last week and it sounded really good. Difficult to explain, but usually, higher action produces a clearer note - too high of an action can create intonation issues. Balance act.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Get some. They are cheap.
> 
> 3-in. Leaf Feeler Gauge | Canadian Tire


Gettin one of those today, I want to make things right because if well adjusting the truss rod did the job with the action it produced a lot a fret buzz as well. Will keep everybody posted. Thanks!


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Ok, with a capo in the first fret and pressing on the 12th fret the relief at the 8th fret is about .007 inches. The guitar feels comfortable to play up to the 5th fret, from the 7th and up I feel like the height of the strings increases too fast. Any ideas?

BTW, the feeler gauge is a useful tool, thanks!


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

amagras said:


> Ok, with a capo in the first fret and pressing on the 12th fret the relief at the 8th fret is about .007 inches. The guitar feels comfortable to play up to the 5th fret, from the 7th and up I feel like the height of the strings increases too fast. Any ideas?
> 
> BTW, the feeler gauge is a useful tool, thanks!


Guys, I still need your help!! 
Should I try lowering the bridge now?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

amagras said:


> Should I try lowering the bridge now?


Do you mean sanding the saddle? I wouldn't do that yet until you have other responses that agree that you should proceed with this.

I would doubt that your guitar has neck angle problems, but it would be a good idea to eliminate that as an issue. This link will describe it and show you how to measure for it.
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/NeckAngle/neck angle.html

Sorry if it is a waste of your time...but at least you might learn something new about guitars.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2017)

amagras said:


> Should I try lowering the bridge now?





amagras said:


> So, should I loosen the strings, take the saddle out and start sanding it a tiny bit at the time until I get to a good height?


Just follow your own advice and you'll be fine.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Thank you for the links guys, I'm checking if the neck angle is correct. Seems so but I have to be sure. Will be back.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

@amagras Please keep us updated with your progress.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2017)

amagras said:


> I'm checking if the neck angle is correct.


FRETS.COM

lay a 24" straightedge on top of the frets










pushing the straightedge toward the bridge, it should "land" right on top of the wooden part of the bridge










this guitar shows a clear need for neck angle work


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Same link as greco's, still can't find my straightedge :&


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

amagras said:


> Same link as greco's, still can't find my straightedge :&


Found it and the angle is correct! 

So far: 

1. The truss rod has been adjusted. 
2. The neck relieve is normal.
3. The neck angle is correct.
4. ???


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

amagras said:


> 4. ???


I really didn't think the neck angle would be an issue...but at least it is now eliminated.

Looks like you are correct...could be time to sand the saddle.
Everything on acoustics is so "interrelated"/"interconnected" that it alway seems
difficult (to a novice like me) to know the sequence of repair/adjustment priorities and what could occur (i.e., buzzing) if one does too much OR in the wrong order OR both. Does that make sense? 

Good Luck!


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Thanks everybody for all the help, I couldn't make any of this alone. I've learn a lot in the process. 

I will wait one more day and if nobody else chime in with a warning sign I will remove the saddle and start sanding.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

amagras said:


> Thanks everybody for all the help, I couldn't make any of this alone. I've learn a lot in the process.
> 
> I will wait one more day and if nobody else chime in with a warning sign I will remove the saddle and start sanding.


Sounds like you are on the right track. Take you time a just do small steps. Generally, to lower the action at the 12th fret you have to take 2x that amount off the saddles. Measure how much you want to take off and mark the saddle, stop short of that a few times and check lots as you go along.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2017)

amagras said:


> I will remove the saddle and start sanding.


Just do it a bit at a time, reinstall, check and pull out and do some more if necessary.
It will be time consuming, but, you don't want to overdo it and have to start over with a new saddle.
I recently did one for a fellow forum member and I only had to sand off less than a 1/8".


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Success! The distance on the 12th fret was about 1.5mm so decided to go for a 2-2.50mm reduction on the saddle, 2mm was enough, now it feels as confortable as my tele even though is bronze 010! 
I'll wait until tomorrow to be sure everything is ok. 
Here's the eye candy:


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

And the tools...


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Congratulations! 

A lot happened while I was away this afternoon.

Cheers

Dave


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

I have to thank all of you, one and a thousand more times for every bit of information and guidance offered here, I'm a happier guitarrista now!


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2017)

You're welcome








We'll PM you our address' for where to send the beer.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

@amagras I will collect a coffee in person when I see you in Ottawa...maybe this fall.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

laristotle said:


> You're welcome
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You have to learn from this guy below here:


greco said:


> @amagras I will collect a coffee in person when I see you in Ottawa...maybe this fall.


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## Guest (Mar 5, 2017)

Curses! Foiled again.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Congratulations. Glad to hear of your success.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Very informative thread! Time to go out and get some feeler gauges and a straight edge!


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