# Beginner Question - Am I counting correctly? Should I be counting?



## mozilla2004 (Nov 1, 2020)

Hi Everyone

I've been playing guitar for about 2 years now and my biggest weakness is still rhythm and learnign to play in time.Someone suggested that I learn how to count. So I want to learn to count while playing a guitar solo for some pop song. But I"m having a lot of trouble, and I'm not sure if my approach is even correct. I made a 3 minute video explaining exactly what I'm doing:






I welcome any advice from people..I want ot know if I'm even on the right track? And if it's reasonable to count when playing a lot of 16th notes at about 80bpm? or is it 120bpm? i'm not sure...


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

I only count when I need to absolutely switch to something else when x bars are done. Otherwise, the best skill you can learn is letting your body sway, tap, or whatever to the rhythm. If there’s a drum piece going on, follow the kick or snare for timing.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Oh, if you practice the piece often enough, your body will tell you when the next change is coming up. It will come with time.


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## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

My music education is really in need of work, but I’ll tell you what worked for me. I initially tried a metronome so I could play along in time and get a feel for timing ( I play by ear, and playing alone, my time was all over the place). The metronome was helpful to an extent, but it got boring quickly. I ended up buying a Digitech SDrum, and that has proved to be an excellent tool as I have play around with a variety of drum types, styles and tempos. Essentially it’s like playing with a drummer who never gets tired of a beat or me lol. It’s really helped me with my sense of time, and when paired with a looper, I’m really able to play with rhythm and lead runs. I’m not an amazing player or anything, but the almost 3 years I’ve used this setup, I’d say have been the most productive and satisfying of my playing time.

Have fun and good luck!


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Or, if there are songs you want to learn on guitar, play the original song while you play along. You’ll rapidly learn the timing of the song.


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## jimmythegeek (Apr 17, 2012)

1SweetRide said:


> I only count when I need to absolutely switch to something else when x bars are done. Otherwise, the best skill you can learn is letting your body sway, tap, or whatever to the rhythm. If there’s a drum piece going on, follow the kick or snare for timing.


All of that is essentially internalized counting. Following the drummer on a recording is WAY more fun playing with a metronome (and I say this as a metronome obsessed drummer) but I would recommend both. The metronome will give you a good basis in “time” and playing to recordings will help you dive into the nuances of time (playing on, behind or ahead of the beat).


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

I was there three years ago : I took a year of private sessions with a pro to enhance my technique and learn to cope with rhythm. Well invested money !

I like the way your tabs are written.


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

mozilla2004 said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> I've been playing guitar for about 2 years now and my biggest weakness is still rhythm and learnign to play in time.Someone suggested that I learn how to count. So I want to learn to count while playing a guitar solo for some pop song. But I"m having a lot of trouble, and I'm not sure if my approach is even correct. I made a 3 minute video explaining exactly what I'm doing:
> 
> ...


Here what I would recommend, I don’t think counting while soloing is the most efficient approach.
Learning to play a solo requires a lot of brain power, paying attention to hands coordination, which note to play, rythme, harmony…

IME when you identify a weakness try to work on it in isolation. Put down the guitar, set the metronome on 50 or 60 bpm and count the sub divisions by clapping your hands:
Quarter note, triplet, eights note, quintuplets… (the odd one especially can be tough)

It’s going to help you internalize the rythme and “feel” it without being distracted by the rest.
You can do the same things after with the guitar play chromatic line or scale… the idea is to focus on your timing and not the song itself for now.

I’m not saying this is the only way but having tried the “play along songs” myself I don’t find it as powerful as using a metronome.

PS: this is also going to help you at high tempo. You don’t count 16th note at 160bpm, instead you keep track of 8th note or quarter note and you think in subdivisions.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

I see what's going on. You're having trouble latching onto the overall beat and your counting is out of synch.

At the beginning of your counting, you were late on the pickup beat and you started beat 1 too late. That threw everything off. (Probably nerves too 🙂.)

Don't worry about the solo right now. Start at the beginning of the song and listen for the drum groove. Practice counting just the quarter notes at first. Ask a friend to see if you're doing it right. (Kick on 1 and 3, snare on 2 and 4 etc.)

Once you have the quarter notes down (the macro beat), you can try subdividing, counting out loud:

Eighth notes or "1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &" (as you already know)

Triplets or "1 & a 2 & a 3 & a 4 & a" (in this case, the triplets are equal to one quarter note)

Sixteenth notes or "1 e & a 2 e & a 3 e & a 4 e & a"

Tap the macro beats (1 2 3 4) while you count the subdivisions. If you can do this along with a song or metronome, then you'll have a better idea of how to subdivide and you'll start to understand how all the musical parts link together.

Use subdivisions for the stuff you practice, like strumming patterns, arpeggios, scales etc.


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## mozilla2004 (Nov 1, 2020)

Grab n Go said:


> I see what's going on. You're having trouble latching onto the overall beat and your counting is out of synch.
> 
> At the beginning of your counting, you were late on the pickup beat and you started beat 1 too late. That threw everything off.
> 
> ...


Wow so much useful advice from everyone, thank you!

And thanks to Grab n Go, i didn't realize you triplet counting (1 & a) and sixteenth notes (1 e & a). If anything, i might want to go WAY back to the basics and find something easier and try counting triplets and sixteenth notes!


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## slag banal (May 4, 2020)

As above, I count only when I have to. Frankly, I can’t count and improvise: I rely on feel. I dislike playing to click tracks and metronomes because they suck the life out of many blues and jazz numbers. I use them only when doing segmental recording. I buy cds, DVDs etc. that are live, because I want to feel the subtle emotion-responsive variations. So I suggest that you practice with a metronome, but play from the heart.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

I have decent timing, but a couple of really good players I know keep time through the whole song. They know what bar and beat they are in at any time.

One of the guys told me to count like this:

1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and
2 and 2 and 3 and 4 and
3 and 2 and 3 and 4 and
4 and 2 and 3 and 4 and
5 and 2 and 3 and 4 and
6 and 2 and 3 and 4 and
7 and 2 and etc.

That's how he knows where he is in the song at any time. Like 5th bar, 3rd beat (*5* and 2 and *3* and 4 and). If you are starting out learning from scratch you should be able to learn to do it over time. He is a monster player and it doesn't affect his playing, rather improves it.

I have found some of the best guys for counting and keeping excellent time also play drums. Especially if they played drums when they were kids. So perhaps getting a cheap kit and learning drums at the same time as guitar would be an idea.


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## mozilla2004 (Nov 1, 2020)

I forgot to add one more point incase it matters...

As a hobby, I liek to record some of my more polished sessions, then overlay it with a video of myself playing, so that I can share my progress/homework with friends and family.

When post editing in ProTools and Video Editing Software, I want to avoid stretching or compressing notes to line up the music with video etc... Just because it's a lot of work and sometimes when splicing, stretching, or compressing, it distorts the audio in undesirable ways.

Because of this, it motivated me to improve my timing to be as precise as possible, so that it saves me time having to post edit mistakes later.

I'm not sure if any of this matters or affects any sugestions made so far, but thought I'd mention it in case it does make a difference!

Many thanks to everyone so far with all the great advie!


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Playing with a drum track is great, but where a metronome is really demanding is when you start removing beats. If you set the metronome to only click on the "one" that's when you will know how good your timing is.

Counting is great when slowly working your way through a new passage, but often becomes impractical at speed - it needs to be second nature at that point.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

player99 said:


> One of the guys told me to count like this:
> 
> 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and
> 2 and 2 and 3 and 4 and
> ...


Good info, and counting is better than asking the bass player to hit you on the head when it's time to change.

Timing has to get to where it's second nature though as opposed to counting and keeping track of where you are in the song. Sometimes, while people are soloing, I just run the lyrics in my head to keep track of changes in the verse and up to the chorus or bridge but that gets to be work. Or just tell them to vamp on a few chords and then come back to it when they're done.

And yeah, drummers who play guitar usually have solid timing. Although Townshend said that Moon didn't keep time so he had to do it .. lol


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Wardo said:


> Good info, and counting is better than asking the bass player to hit you on the head when it's time to change.
> 
> Timing has to get to where it's second nature though as opposed to counting and keeping track of where you are in the song. Sometimes, while people are soloing, I just run the lyrics in my head to keep track of changes in the verse and up to the chorus or bridge but that gets to be work. Or just tell them to vamp on a few chords and then come back to it when they're done.
> 
> And yeah, drummers who play guitar usually have solid timing. Although Townshend said that Moon didn't keep time so he had to do it .. lol


I agree, and the pros count the bars as second nature, it just happens without them consciously thinking about it and they always know where they are in the song without thinking about it. Some pros do this, I'm sure not them all.

If you're good you know the chorus starts on the 48th bar and you know when you're at bar 47.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

I asked my organ teacher, who was retired professor emeritus of organ at Queens, how to silence the "chatty guy" in my brain which impaired my focus when I was playing. He said that _his_ teacher had discussed this and one solution was to count the time in your head.

So there's that.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

mozilla2004 said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> I've been playing guitar for about 2 years now and my biggest weakness is still rhythm and learnign to play in time.Someone suggested that I learn how to count. So I want to learn to count while playing a guitar solo for some pop song. But I"m having a lot of trouble, and I'm not sure if my approach is even correct. I made a 3 minute video explaining exactly what I'm doing:
> 
> ...


Hey. I'm working on the same skill from time to time, and I think what I may offer are some considerations. There are many compound rhythms occurring in that solo right off the bat so you would have to slow it down to half-speed, or even 40bpm at first and count each rhythm as it is written in the measure. You can't simply count the whole measure in 8th notes to get the feel of a triplet or a phrase with a 16th note in it...you have to know the feel of a tri-ple-et, or 1-e-&-a. Try to slow it down and think and vocalize the compound rhythms at first. Second, I would clap the rhythm including the rests, so you get a sense of pulse from measure to measure. All this very slowly, and also don't burn yourself out on it...it's something to work on for about 10-15minutes (straight, high-focus) and then go off and work on other things. But do it every day that you practice guitar.

the first measure I would count & clap as follows:
1=(1/4) 2=(1/4) 3&=(8th) 4e&A=(16th)

I would recommend learning to read standard music notation alongside this practice because you can find rhythm exercise sheets that are effective at teaching you how to read notes on the staff while playing different permutations of rhythms in one go. It'll be slow and you'll find many ways to trip up, but thats part of the long con of organizing this stuff in your head so you don't have to think about it, only make adjustments on the fly.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I was at Queens; didn’t know they had a prof emeritus of organ. When I was doin the ivy league tour trying to decide which school up here would be a goodun for post grad I decided on Queens because when I got there to check it out there was a pipe band marching around so I figured this is a place for me.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

Get a conga. Learn to play along with the drums in the recording and also learn to play the rhythm of the solo you're learning. Working with a drum gets at the rhythm without the distraction or impediment of playing notes. Bongos or pretty much any hand drum will also serve just fine.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

Wardo said:


> I was at Queens; didn’t know they had a prof emeritus of organ. When I was doin the ivy league tour trying to decide which school up here would be a goodun for post grad I decided on Queens because when I got there to check it out there was a pipe band marching around so I figured this is a place for me.


David Cameron. He may have been just professor of organ when you were there. He gave me some lessons about seven years ago when I was just starting out on pipe organ. He was very generous and I owe him a lot of respect and gratitude.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Doug Gifford said:


> He was very generous and I owe him a lot of respect and gratitude.


I met a lot of people like that at Queens.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

One thing I used to do with subdivisions is tap them out on a table or your lap and change the emphasis.
12/8 feel: 123, 123, 123, 123. Start by emphasizing 1 for a few bars then change emphasis to 2 for a few bars then 3. Make sure you are not just pausing and substituting 2 for 1 as you go. Be aware of where you are in the pattern. Don't stop when changing emphasis. 
You might start to recognize some typical rhythmic choices- a cliche blues guitar rif intro often starts on the 2 of the 3rd triplet.
You can do the same with an 1/8th note pattern or 16th. Then move on to 5/4 etc. 

It's pretty tedious work but valuable. Initially though, don't use your guitar. Get the feel then move to the guitar. Do the same with some scales or strumming. Good rhythmic control is what separates the great players from the average.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Nested polyrhythms are interesting.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Ok, am I doing it wrong? I thought I was doing OK until I read the responses in this thread lol. I don't count beats or divisions or subdivisions. There are some exceptions of course such as when the into is drum-only and I have to come in on a certain beat. But for the most part, I rarely count beats. 

I just try to feel the groove and listen/look for cues from the drummer when there's rapid changes requiring coordination from all of us together. When we're improvising, I certainly don't feel there's any need to count. I can feel the rhythm without even thinking about it.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Yeah it sounds overly confusing to me too. Most of the counting ideas posted, I realized that I instinctively do without thinking about it. I just listen and play along with whatever I’m doing and the rhythm, arrangement and other details just seem to sink in. Mind you, I don’t read sheet music, so that just looks like black marks on white paper to me.

Personally I think you’re overthinking things. A can’t see the forest for the trees situation.


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

1SweetRide said:


> Ok, am I doing it wrong?





JBFairthorne said:


> Personally I think you’re overthinking things. A can’t see the forest for the trees situation.


 I don't think it's a question of right or wrong as much as how to develop a solid time feel.
Personally I don't count while playing (maybe I should, I don't know), but I do spend a fair amount of time counting while I practice to internalize it.

"feel" does not always comes naturally, so you have to find a way to get it in your system when you don't "feel" it.
Some genre are also more lenient with time feel, than others, making it easier to play along by feel. I think it's easier to clap along BB King at the Regal than Pat Metheny on James.

Rhythm is also a big tool as an improviser, and working on that can help you expand what you already "feel".
Like many guitar advice it's not a question of right or wrong but whether it's useful for you or not.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

JBFairthorne said:


> Personally I think you’re overthinking things. A can’t see the forest for the trees situation.


I would change that to "you can't see the forest _until _you can see the trees". Or something like that. 
"Feel" is great until it lets you down one day. You're not in the mood or whatever and you can't fallback on hard earned knowledge. 

I notice this when watching jams and occasionally even with pro touring bands. Players might be playing some great note choices but if the timing is off on the placement, it just lacks impact. Guitarists usually play too much and leave little space to breathe. Playing with space gives you time to phrase and place notes in a more rhythmically impactful way. 

There is also just the basic fact that communication is easier if you are all speaking the same language.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

Rather than overcomplicate, I'd say being able to count and subdivide made my life way easier.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

1SweetRide said:


> Ok, am I doing it wrong?


Ask your drummer.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Interesting thread.

I hope that @starjag sees this.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Hammerhands said:


> Ask your drummer.


He's my younger brother and looks up to me


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

Maybe the counting thing is a personal choice. YMMV and all that. If I'm singing and playing at the same time, counting won't happen. If I'm learning something from notation, counting is pretty useful. And sometimes when I'm practicing I'm content to listen to the chatty guy in my head while my spinal chord looks after the actual act of playing.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Counting rhythm is one of those things that once your got it, it goes away. As for learning it, well I dont remember but we started rhythm in elementary school. I still remember clapping out those ta tiki ta ta claps.

It goes away once you got it, but I dont recall how to get there.

There are some sound suggestions here though.

I think I might just go home and see of I even count a rhythm while I play. I bet I can't. But I can play one.


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