# We are now truely F*&ked - New CITES regs at war with guitar owners



## TheRumRunner (Sep 29, 2011)

All I can say is wow, just wow. The amount of bureaucratic bullshit and the high costs involved just killed trans border shipping of guitars.

New CITES Regulations For All Rosewood Species

A new regulation takes effect on January 2, 2017 that calls for documentation when shipping instruments internationally that contain any amount of _any kind_ of rosewood or certain types of bubinga.

It does not apply to instruments shipped _within_ the borders of your country or instruments carried for personal use while traveling internationally [unless they contain more than 22 lbs. (10 kg) of the regulated woods].

This is a developing story, with details emerging as government agencies figure out how to create processes around the new requirements. To what degree they are enforced remains to be seen.

Here’s what we know so far.

*The New Regulation on Rosewood and Bubinga*
The Convention of International Trade of Endangered Species of Flora and Fauna (CITES) held a conference from September 24 - October 4 this year in Johannesburg, South Africa where it was decided that all species of *rosewood* under the genus _Dalbergia_ and three *bubinga* species (_Guibourtia demeusei_, _Guibourtia pellegriniana_, and _Guibourtia tessmannii_) will be protected under CITES Appendix II.

Kosso - sometimes called African rosewood (_Pterocarpus erinaceus_) - will also be protected.

While Brazilian Rosewood is currently under CITES protection (those laws will stay in place), this move places all the other nearly 300 species of rosewood under similar regulation.

This includes the East Indian rosewood and Honduran rosewood - as well as woods like cocobolo (_Dalbergia retusa_) and African blackwood (_Dalbergia melanoxylon_) - that are widely used in the manufacturing of stringed instruments, marimbas and some woodwinds.

*What This Means*
*For manufacturers:*
When importing any species of _Dalbergia_ or the other woods mentioned, there must be an accompanying CITES certificate from the country it came from if it arrives after January 2, 2017.

Manufacturers who currently have stockpiles of the newly regulated wood must document their inventory and apply for pre-convention certificates.

*For dealers and sellers:*
When shipping musical instruments that include any amount (i.e. fingerboard, back, sides, binding) of _Dalbergia_ or the other newly regulated woods out of your country as part of a commercial transaction, each one must be accompanied by a CITES re-export certificate.

Even if the instrument was made with _Dalbergia_ or the other regulated woods that were acquired before January 2, 2017 - such as a used or vintage instrument - it still must be accompanied by a CITES certificate and marked pre-convention when shipping internationally.

For example, a seller in Nashville looking to ship her 2013 Martin 000-28 with East Indian rosewood back and sides to a buyer in Canada must apply for a re-export certificate, pay the application fee, receive the certificate, and include that document with the guitar when shipping.

For sellers in the United States, *CITES re-export certificates must be applied for through the US Fish and Wildlife Service*. You can download the application here.

Representatives of the agency have said that initial turnaround times on certificate application may be on the order of months.

For more information, you can contact their office at (703) 358-2104 or at [email protected]. You can read the official letter from US Fish and Wildlife here.

If you contact US Fish and Wildlife, please keep in mind that they did not suggest or create this regulation - the parties of the international CITES conference did. The employees of US Fish and Wildlife are trying to work _with_ manufacturers and sellers to develop streamlined processes around this.

Each country has its own CITES Management Authority. If you live outside the United States, you can look up the CITES contact in your country here.

*Why This Happened*
CITES is an international agreement that has been in effect since 1975. Its goal is to ensure that international trade of wildlife does not threaten the survival of species or the health of ecosystems. Nations participate in and adhere to CITES regulations voluntarily, but it is legally binding for those opting in.

According to the UN Office on Drugs and Crime, rosewood accounted for the highest percentage of illicit wildlife seizures by value from 2005 to 2014.

The reason for the billion-dollar demand for rosewood - and the subsequent trafficking - has less to do with musical instruments and much more to do with furniture.

In particular, China’s high-end furniture market created enormous demand that led to severe deforestation of several _Dalbergia_ species in Thailand, Vietnam, and several other countries.

Not all _Dalbergia_ species are threatened by the furniture boom. But rather than train border officials across the world how to identify the nuanced differences between them - something that even experts struggle with at times - the participants of the CITES conference decided to create a blanket regulation on the entire genus of _Dalbergia_ wood.

*What This Will Look Like In Reality*
The number of musical instruments containing some amount of rosewood, cocobolo, bubinga or kosso that cross international borders each day is staggering.

To put it mildly, the new regulation creates a lot of new work on very short notice for government agencies around certificate approval and issuance.

Instruments sold to buyers outside your country will be subject to CITES enforcement by the receiving countries. The consistency and vigilance in checking for documentation is something that remains to be seen.

As this is a developing story with emerging details from CITES and US Fish and Wildlife, please stay tuned for updates and new information.

DW


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I had 2 guitars shipped from a Florida dealer this past summer, both with Rosewood. I guess I'm lucky I didn't wait a year for the second guitar I ordered as was originally planned. 
I wonder if this means that the guitars would have cost me a bit more.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

Guess we'll have to switch to domestic wood species.
I should start a tree nursery.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

That pretty much ends buying a used guitar from the U.S. Chances are, even IF I wanted to put up with the wait time and the hassles, the seller has absolutely no incentive to bother.


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

I exported 3 guitars a few years ago with rosewood and had to do the CITES dance, and quite a dance it was. I don't have a problem with these laws if they do what they're intended to do, which is choke demand for endangered species of anything.


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## TheRumRunner (Sep 29, 2011)

I just spent 10 minutes trying to find the relevant Canadian docs to start the process of applying for a permit. Yupp you guessed it, a series of broken HTTP 404 error web links and PDF docs that say " eventually replaced by the proper contents of the document"
Environment and Climate Change Canada - Nature - Your title

Here is a link to the document we will need to start a Re-export Cert. I do see a couple of challenges, ie: you will need a CITES cert number from the original manufacture of the guitar. Good luck with that.

http://www.ec.gc.ca/cites/57457079-5DC3-428E-BAA8-CB062DBE61A1/CITES_Re-export_Certificate-ENG.pdf

DW


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

This will really put a crimp in sales for small manufacturers. The Canadian market is pretty small. I imagine most Canadian manufacturers sell most of the guitars in the US. With Canadian shipping prices and the added expense and hassle of permits it will make them less competitive. It will also kill private sales. So far I've avoided buying online from the US but I have considered buying a custom made guitar form a small US manufacturer. What a pain.


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## TheRumRunner (Sep 29, 2011)

Here is the fucking lunacy of this. While CITES is required in this global market, this reg was intended to curtail the Chinese from deforesting SE Asia for furniture manufacturing. I get that. So all CITES had to do was either A: Exempt musical instruments or B: Set a minimum content level (ie: An instrument with under 3 board feet of Rosewood would be exempt.) 

DW


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

TheRumRunner said:


> All I can say is wow, just wow. The amount of bureaucratic bullshit and the high costs involved just killed trans border shipping of guitars.
> 
> New CITES Regulations For All Rosewood Species
> 
> ...


A nice summary of the problem. One of those weird areas where international law, consumer affairs, and botany/ecology meet.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Thank you China and your massive taste for rosewood furniture (that's one reason anyway)


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

What this will look like in reality......My take.

Anyone with the protected species growing in the area where they are harvested will now have a bunch of trees that are worth nothing now, so they will cut/burn them down in order to plant something that they can actually sell.



Like potatoes for McDonald's fries or some such thing.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Jim DaddyO said:


> What this will look like in reality......My take.
> 
> Anyone with the protected species growing in the area where they are harvested will now have a bunch of trees that are worth nothing now, so they will cut/burn them down in order to plant something that they can actually sell.
> 
> ...


It is possible that the price would go up to compensate and that wouldn't happen. Also, a lot of logging doesn't happen on private land (i.e. that could be used for alt purpose such as farming other crops) but public; so that arg doesn't apply really.


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

"Instruments sold to buyers outside your country will be subject to CITES enforcement by the receiving countries. The consistency and vigilance in checking for documentation is something that remains to be seen."

That's the key paragraph right there.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I'm buying stock in roasted maple.


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## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

Would I be correct in assuming it will be much harder to sell guitars on Reverb to US buyers (from Canada) now. In other words, if I wanted to try my luck selling a Gibson online for US dollars instead of Kijiji locally, this will be more complicated for me now.


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

Jim DaddyO said:


> What this will look like in reality......My take.
> 
> Anyone with the protected species growing in the area where they are harvested will now have a bunch of trees that are worth nothing now, so they will cut/burn them down in order to plant something that they can actually sell.
> 
> ...


Or for palm oil!


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

Finally the debate is over. Maple is better than Rosewood!!!


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## TheRumRunner (Sep 29, 2011)

This 7 month old is pissed..






DW


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

TheRumRunner said:


> This 7 month old is pissed..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't blame him. Think how bad it'll be when he's old enough for his first nice guitar. I've pretty much got my forever rosewood guitar.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

On one hand, I think I have all the guitars it makes sense for me to own (Well unless the right deal comes long)--but new ones & used from US will be restricted--and if I need to replace any of mine it may be tougher.
But this affects younger guitarists & the ones to come--so yeah--it sucks--and it wouldn't be difficult to do what others have suggested & set more sensible parameters--to stop large use of these woods, but not guitars.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

TheRumRunner said:


> *The New Regulation on Rosewood and Bubinga*
> The Convention of International Trade of Endangered Species of Flora and Fauna (CITES) held a conference from September 24 - October 4 this year in Johannesburg, South Africa where it was decided that all species of *rosewood* under the genus _Dalbergia_ and three *bubinga* species (_Guibourtia demeusei_, _Guibourtia pellegriniana_, and _Guibourtia tessmannii_) *will be protected under CITES Appendix II.*
> 
> Kosso - sometimes called African rosewood (_Pterocarpus erinaceus_) - will also be protected.
> ...


Something doesn't ring true here. At this point in time, only woods listed under Appendix I have had shipping restrictions (Braz RW). There are a number of Appendix II woods that are used and, while endangered, there are no restrictions in shipping that I'm aware of.

So does this mean these woods are going to be elevated to Appendix I so that there are shipping restrictions or are they going to start restricting shipment of Appendix II wood products. Those of us that already own Appendix II woods would like clarification. 

Here's a partial list of the woods in question:

Restricted and Endangered Wood Species | The Wood Database


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

TheRumRunner said:


> Here is the fucking lunacy of this. While CITES is required in this global market, this reg was intended to curtail the Chinese from deforesting SE Asia for furniture manufacturing. I get that. So all CITES had to do was either A: Exempt musical instruments or B: Set a minimum content level (ie: An instrument with under 3 board feet of Rosewood would be exempt.)
> 
> DW


"It does not apply to instruments shipped _within_ the borders of your country or instruments carried for personal use while traveling internationally [unless they contain more than 22 lbs. (10 kg) of the regulated woods]."

I sense there will be a lot of "personal use" travellers out there.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

Budda said:


> "It does not apply to instruments shipped _within_ the borders of your country or instruments carried for personal use while traveling internationally [unless they contain more than 22 lbs. (10 kg) of the regulated woods]."
> 
> I sense there will be a lot of "personal use" travellers out there.



thats exactly what i was thinking...but even then...i'm sure you'll get grilled excellently at the border about the origin of the guitar...and hopefully not confiscated


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

ezcomes said:


> thats exactly what i was thinking...but even then...i'm sure you'll get grilled excellently at the border about the origin of the guitar...and hopefully not confiscated


Could happen--my gear is staying in Canada


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

WCGill said:


> I exported 3 guitars a few years ago with rosewood and had to do the CITES dance, and quite a dance it was. I don't have a problem with these laws if they do what they're intended to do, which is choke demand for endangered species of anything.



The problem is that the largest consumers of rosewood are the Chinese who use it in the furniture industry, most often illegally. But instead of going after the Chinese companies who harvest it illegally, or those who get it legally but use a lot of it, they are, instead, fucking _everyone_ over.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

I recently ordered a neck with a rosewood board from Fender. Once that is on my Partscaster I am one step closer to being done with buying guitars. All that remains is to sell my Les Pauls (one Gibson Traditional and one Epi LP Custom) and buy an SG ('61 Reissue, Derek Trucks, or a 2012-2013 Standard) and then I am done. Oh, and a steel bodied resonator. Then I really will be done and these new regulations won't affect me one bit.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

So is it going to be difficult to even buy a guitar with rosewood?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

butterknucket said:


> So is it going to be difficult to even buy a guitar with rosewood?


From a private buyer, probably. From the corporations with teams of lawyers to make sure everything is ok? Probably not, but expect a little price bump to compensate.

As for "my gear is staying in Canada" - that's great, except for every Canadian band that tours internationally.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Budda said:


> As for "my gear is staying in Canada" - that's great, except for every Canadian band that tours internationally.


true it will affect you more than it affects me.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I never buy or sell anything outside of Canada. Also, it is sort of like, I'm retired now, I don't care about work. It is not war against guitars either. Guitars are collateral damage. It is like trying to blame the drop in oil prices on the governments, when it was the Saudis and OPEC nations that caused it. I'm not sure what the cause of the bubinga restrictions are, but rosewood is a very desirable furniture wood around the world, especially China. Rosewood for guitars barely even counts.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

I'll put my guitars with rosewood on top of my piano with ivory keys.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

Budda said:


> From a private buyer, probably. From the corporations with teams of lawyers to make sure everything is ok? Probably not, but expect a little price bump to compensate.
> 
> As for "my gear is staying in Canada" - that's great, except for every Canadian band that tours internationally.


when you apply to work across the border, do you not have to itemize what goes with you? would your gear not be given a pass inside your work permit/visa/whatever it's called?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

ezcomes said:


> when you apply to work across the border, do you not have to itemize what goes with you? would your gear not be given a pass inside your work permit/visa/whatever it's called?


We have been asked once about a carnet, which was the first time Dan's ever experienced it. You don't usually have to have said list. I'm not sure how things change given the new CITES rules.


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

curious: what are all of us who already own rosewood-containing instruments supposed to do?

do we need to somehow track down pre-CITES documents, proving

A: the guitar was built before 2017
B: the source of any rosewood in the instrument?


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

My Reverb Les Paul showed up just under the wire. Saweeeeet!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

bolero said:


> curious: what are all of us who already own rosewood-containing instruments supposed to do?
> 
> do we need to somehow track down pre-CITES documents, proving
> 
> ...


I certainly would never attempt to take my Madagascar back and sides guitar over the border. I plan on attending bluegrass festivals and would like to take my D-18 over the border but I wonder if I have to even worry about that guitar as the head stock is a rosewood overlay. Its very little in terms of weight.


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

So now for example....is Gibson going to be totally inundated by Rosewood validity requests, for everyone in the world who owns one of their guitars built since 1948?

selling any personal guitar from now on will need a CITES doc?


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Don't know if this has been posted, but as I'm new (and ignorant to) the whole CITES thing, this may be interesting to you. Wait till you get a gander at the profs axe, and some of the others there!!!!

Sorry if someone posted it elsewhere already:

[UPDATE] Will New Rosewood Trade Restrictions Have Implications for Acoustic Guitarists?


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## murraythek (Jun 1, 2013)

Would a seller still need to apply for this for vintage guitars with rosewood if shipping from Canada to the US?


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

How do these regulations apply when flying elsewhere in the world? Say I go back to Britain for a holiday, or decide to move back there permanently (unlikely but not entirely out of the question), do I have to get permits to take my own guitars with me?


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

Cites update. 

Recent email re my inquiry. 

(From cites office govt Canada ) 
*It would be very helpful if we could get a photo of this guitar as well as close-up of manufacturer name, model and/or serial number. It helps to uniquely identify this guitar on our permit. As well, could you write up and sign a statement explaining when, how, where, how much it cost, etc you obtained this guitar. It would help substantiate and support the legitimate origin of the instrument.


The permits in Canada are free of charge. It takes us about 1 or 2 weeks to process applications for this type of permit.


Regards,


Lise Jubinville


Chef d’unité, Politique et opérations des permis CITES / CITES Canada - Organe de gestion 
Gestion de la faune et affaires réglementaires / Service canadien de la faune

Environnement and Climate Change Canada / Gouvernement du Canada

[email protected] /Tel 1 855 869 8670 


Head, CITES Permit Policy and Operations Unit / CITES Canada - Management Authority

Wildlife Management and Regulatory Affairs / Canadian Wildlife Service

Environment et Changements climatiques Canada / Government of Canada

[email protected] /Tél 1 855 869 8670
*


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

murraythek said:


> Would a seller still need to apply for this for vintage guitars with rosewood if shipping from Canada to the US?


Yes. I went through the process 2 years ago and it is demanding, on both sides of the border.


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## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

sambonee said:


> Cites update.
> *
> The permits in Canada are free of charge. It takes us about 1 or 2 weeks to process applications for this type of permit.*


A far cry from what they used to quote before: 45 days.


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## DaddyDog (Apr 21, 2017)

It seems easier to ship drugs.


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

Has anyone looked into importing Chinese rosewood guitars or furniture for that matter? Do they have the same regulations when exporting an already manufactured product?


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