# Timmy's layoffs - Thanks Brazil



## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

Tim Horton’s is laying off right now, and many people are shaking their heads wondering how a Canadian company can let so many entry jobs go down the drain.

Well Tim Horton’s is not really a Canadian owned company, although the optics are orchestrated to make you believe it is. Why? Because the owners like to have Canadians from coast-to-coast line up to buy their morning fix and gloat about patronizing Canada. Naturally the company itself promotes this misconception by filling the airwaves with commercials saturated with Canadianisms.

When Tim Hortons merged with Burger King International in December it was done through Burger King’s parent company 3G Capital of Brazil which formed a new 3G subsidiary called Restaurant Brands International which they based in Oakville. (More good optics, eh?) Forty-nine percent of Restaurant Brands shares trade on the New York Stock and Toronto Stock Exchanges. However the majority of 51% is held by…you guessed it, 3 G Capital, which is owned by Jorge Paulo Lemann, Carlos Alberto Sicupira, Marcel Herman Telles and Roberto Thompson Motta. If you still choose to buy your coffee at Timmy’s you can be sure you are drinking Brazilian!

3G Capital also owns Heinz and is known throughout the world as a corporation that slashes staff down to the absolute minimum. It didn’t take long.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Aaaaaaand....their coffee sucks - this has been stated 127 times on the forum but I feel that it warrants repeating.

So...screw Brazil and get your coffee elsewhere.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Krelf said:


> When Tim Hortons merged with Burger King International in December it was done through Burger King’s parent company 3G Capital of Brazil which formed a new 3G subsidiary called Restaurant Brands International which they based in Oakville. (More good optics, eh?) Forty-nine percent of Restaurant Brands shares trade on the New York Stock and Toronto Stock Exchanges. However the majority of 51% is held by…you guessed it, 3 G Capital, which is owned by Jorge Paulo Lemann, Carlos Alberto Sicupira, Marcel Herman Telles and Roberto Thompson Motta. *If you still choose to buy your coffee at Timmy’s you can be sure you are drinking Brazilian*!
> 
> 3G Capital also owns Heinz and is known throughout the world as a corporation that slashes staff down to the absolute minimum. It didn’t take long.


Mmmmm, I can't wait to find a hair in my coffee.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Yes, you gotta love Globalisation!~. The rich get richer, and the poor continue to get shafted.


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

I dislike any company that has mediocre rendering and reeps stellar profits. I favor mcdonalds coffee for value and taste.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

sambonee said:


> I dislike any company that has mediocre rendering and reeps stellar profits. I favor mcdonalds coffee for value and taste.


While it is companies that do this, it is often everyday people that force them to take these steps because the investors hold the corporation responsible for providing the best dividends for their investment.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> While it is companies that do this, it is often everyday people that force them to take these steps because the investors hold the corporation responsible for providing the best dividends for their investment.


"Everyday people" can't force them to do anything.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Not that it is any sort of soothing ointment, but I gather the intent of the parent company is to get a return on investment at the_ retail outlets themselves_. So the staff being cut are not in the retail outlets. The layoffs (which *were* done in a rather tasteless and unfeeling manner) were of the "back office" type. Obviously, I don't have the details, but you have to figure that any company that swallows up another company is going to ask itself "We already HAVE a legal-services/accounts-payable/marketing/etc division. Why do we need another one?". Still, those are the better paying jobs - the ones which the TFW program was_ not _filling.

Some folks will know I have a long-standing interest in what is referred to as "organizational justice" (it's a legit technical term; do a Google search with it and you'll find interesting stuff). In 1998, I attended a talk by one of the notable researchers in the area at the time. The talk was on perceptions of fairness in hiring practices by job applicants. The speaker concluded "I live in the Detroit area, where 'the Big Three' automakers are situated. Every year, tens of thousands of people apply to them for jobs. Now, not all those people who apply get jobs, but you gotta figure that the vast majority of them have cars, or intend on buying one. You have to wonder what impact good or bad job application experiences with those three employers will have on their subsequent consumer behaviour and choices."

Cogent point IMHO. Has the seeming unscrupulous nature of these hi-howya-doin-get-lost employer behaviours, following the BK acquisition of Timmies, soured the love affair Canadians have with the TH brand? Particularly when you consider that the Hamilton-Burlington area is the birthplace of TH, and donut heaven.

Gotta wonder.

Incidentally, do you KNOW that your various retirement funds are NOT shareholders in the parent company? We are all too quick to blame such conglomerates, but only too happy to rake in, and plan our glorious retirement around, the interest and dividends that come from....well, we'd rather not ask.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

I know over a dozen people that switched to McDonalds coffee in the morning. I'm one of them. The layoffs are due to Tim Horton's decreasing customer base, nothing else.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

the coffee order of hierarchy is:

1. starbucks
2. mcdonalds
3-9997. everything else
9998. dirty bathtub water
9999. Tim Hortons


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

As I've said before, I stopped buying Tim Hortons stuff for myself a while ago. Their coffee is weak (even the so called dark roast) to my tastes, and their food is pretty much garbage in terms of nutrution.

The Keurig in the office and a little greek yogurt works better and costs less.

I'm sorry about anyone losing a job. I think Tims have been riding on brand image and loyalty for too long.

I think we'll start seeing a decline in their fortunes now.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

smorgdonkey said:


> Aaaaaaand....their coffee sucks - this has been stated 127 times on the forum but I feel that it warrants repeating.
> 
> So...screw Brazil and get your coffee elsewhere.


It's been stated way more than 127 times. The coffee is rank. Maxwell House is better


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

Milkman said:


> As I've said before, I stopped buying Tim Hortons stuff for myself a while ago. Their coffee is weak (even the so called dark roast) to my tastes, and their food is pretty much garbage in terms of nutrution.
> 
> The Keurig in the office and a little greek yogurt works better and costs less.
> 
> ...



I predicted their decline when they went public a couple years back. Once a bunch of nameless shareholders start clamoring for that 5%/year growth the quality, service and front line morale starts to decline. This takeover will likely accelerate the process. Personally I have no issue with the coffee. I seldom buy any of their food. The way they treated the employees is reprehensible. I can just as easily not go there anymore.


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

This is really not about their terrible coffee. (I don't drink it either) It's about people that drink the swill thinking that they are doing their patriotic duty to support Canada when they have not done their homework. A few Canadians still own a small amount of subsidiary shares with zero control over the company, which counts for nothing.

Bear in mind that many Canadians own shares in Macdonald's too, both directly, in their pension plans and mutual funds. And Macdonald's does a lot for the community. 

The real kicker is when you go to a food fair and order a burger and a coffee, and the concession does not have coffee, just sugary soft drinks and you ask why. Then you turn around and see a huge line up at THs. This is what really ticks me off. They've carved out a virtual monopoly out of misplaced patriotism!


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Steadfastly said:


> While it is companies that do this, it is often everyday people that force them to take these steps because the investors hold the corporation responsible for providing the best dividends for their investment.


I believe this to be true. I've tried to explain it to friends that demonize the large corporations, but when asked who owns the corporations, they have no idea. When they are told it is share-holders, they are thinking Bill Gates or Yorkshire Hathaway. When I ask them if they invest and they say yes, I ask what they are trying to do. Make money, of course. They move their money (as per their investor's advice) to the corp most likely to make them the largest profit. How do corporations do that?

And yet they cannot understand B so they never see the connection from A to C. Its always these big faceless corps, not the investors demanding a higher return every year.


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## whywhyzed (Jan 28, 2008)

I think the sad part is that the media covers a coffee shop chain like it's the mining sector, or the steel industry. We actually think Tim Hortons is part of our country's future. 

I don't think the total number of cups of coffee poured each day in the country and the manpower to pour them will change in any significant way.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

I'm not sure why this is a surprise... it's not like they didn't do the same thing with BK... anyone been to one of those recently? Crap food and crap service to go with it...


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> I believe this to be true. I've tried to explain it to friends that demonize the large corporations, but when asked who owns the corporations, they have no idea. When they are told it is share-holders, they are thinking Bill Gates or Yorkshire Hathaway. When I ask them if they invest and they say yes, I ask what they are trying to do. Make money, of course. They move their money (as per their investor's advice) to the corp most likely to make them the largest profit. How do corporations do that?
> 
> And yet they cannot understand B so they never see the connection from A to C. Its always these big faceless corps, not the investors demanding a higher return every year.


Bingo.

50 years from now, when people begin to think of the past 50 years as "history", they'll look back and realize just what sort of havoc "nervous money" created by enticing publicly-held companies to do all manner of things to deliver higher dividends, primarily to service retirement funds. Ironically, much of that panic over having sufficient retirement plans comes from anxiety about the durability/dependability of jobs. That is, if I can't be certain my employer and job will be there, then I better have a financial exit plan. Meanwhile, the companies your pension plans invest in are shedding jobs and outsourcing/offshoring like crazy in order to provide the actual or promised profit margins that can hang onto those retirement funds as investors.

It's a vicious cycle.

We are certainly not THE enemy, but we are more in cahoots with the enemy than we'd like to think.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

mhammer said:


> Bingo.
> 
> 50 years from now, when people begin to think of the past 50 years as "history", they'll look back and realize just what sort of havoc "nervous money" created by enticing publicly-held companies to do all manner of things to deliver higher dividends, primarily to service retirement funds. Ironically, much of that panic over having sufficient retirement plans comes from anxiety about the durability/dependability of jobs. That is, if I can't be certain my employer and job will be there, then I better have a financial exit plan. Meanwhile, the companies your pension plans invest in are shedding jobs and outsourcing/offshoring like crazy in order to provide the actual or promised profit margins that can hang onto those retirement funds as investors.
> 
> ...


What I'd like to see in these scenarios is just who holds the lion's share of these stocks. Ma and Pa or you and I may have it buried deep in our portfolio but I'd guess there's very much fewer people who own the vast majority of stock in these corporations. 
The idea that people "do it to themselves" is like when your big brother grabs your arm and starts hitting you in the head with it saying "stop hitting yourself!" If there were a viable alternative to having to invest in this type of system perhaps things would be different. As it is we have to play the game but I see no problem with people calling bullshit when they see it even if they're forced to eat it. Also, keep in mind the corporate minds that do this sort of thing are usually working for the short term gain at the likely expense of long term viability. They get the golden parachute no matter how it turns out. Long term investors end up losing.


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## ThatGingerMojo (Jul 30, 2014)

I think I agree with blam. Rather make my own and take it work in a good thermal cup, than waste money on crap.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Hamstrung said:


> What I'd like to see in these scenarios is just who holds the lion's share of these stocks. Ma and Pa or you and I may have it buried deep in our portfolio but I'd guess there's very much fewer people who own the vast majority of stock in these corporations.
> The idea that people "do it to themselves" is like when your big brother grabs your arm and starts hitting you in the head with it saying "stop hitting yourself!" If there were a viable alternative to having to invest in this type of system perhaps things would be different. As it is we have to play the game but I see no problem with people calling bullshit when they see it even if they're forced to eat it. Also, keep in mind the corporate minds that do this sort of thing are usually working for the short term gain at the likely expense of long term viability. They get the golden parachute no matter how it turns out. Long term investors end up losing.



True...Joe average doesn't force the big corps to do anything. That's like saying that if I let a guy use my hammer and he bludgeons someone to death with it that I am guilty of murder.

- - - Updated - - -



GuitarsCanada said:


> The coffee is rank. Maxwell House is better


Maxwell House is way better. I tried Maxwell House after hearing the Terry O'reilly coffee info that Maxwell House was #1 in Canada. I also tried Folger's as it was #1 in the USA. I found that they weren't even similar and that my taste chose Folger's over the Max. I tend to buy a smaller amount than the average big can of whatever so I will get McCafe (MacDonalds) at the grocery store or Nabob depending upon whether or not one is on sale. I still will go off brand once in a while to try others that I haven't yet.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

ThatGingerMojo said:


> I think I agree with blam. Rather make my own and take it work in a good thermal cup, than waste money on crap.


A few months ago, I was chatting with a friend who is a highly esteemed professor of government, and someone whom I am deeply honoured to know. (How honoured? We met after he broke from a meeting with Bob Rae, Preston Manning, Sheila Fraser, Hugh Segal, and a bunch of other bigwigs. The guy _gets around_.) We went for coffee to a food court near work, and as we gazed around, trying to figure out where to cup-up, he asked me where I got my coffee. "You know, if you get it at Tim Horton's, you're a Conservative voter, and if you get it at Starbucks, you vote LIberal." I told him that I brewed my own in the office. "Ah, then you're an anarchist!", he grinned.


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## Guest (Jan 30, 2015)

Around here those aren't even in the Top 50 places you should go for a good cup of coffee! 



blam said:


> 1. starbucks
> 2. mcdonalds
> 3-9997. everything else
> 9998. dirty bathtub water
> 9999. Tim Hortons


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mhammer said:


> I told him that I brewed my own in the office. "Ah, then you're an anarchist!", he grinned.


He's totally got your number! That's you to a tee!


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Tim Hortons reminds me of Pizza Pizza. Tasteless, bland and gross yet they are everywhere


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

the wife is a huge Tim Horton's fan, but personally I couldn't care less if they fell right off the earth. The only thing they had going for them (IMHO) was that were a Canadian company. They've lost that so flux them!


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Wendy's corporation bought out Timmies in the mid nineties, it hasn't been a Canadian company for some twenty years.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

I'd rather spend my money on fair trade coffee, made at home or at a small local coffee shop. It's 10x better.


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

sulphur said:


> Wendy's corporation bought out Timmies in the mid nineties, it hasn't been a Canadian company for some twenty years.


Wendy's relinquished TH in 2006 after Dave Thomas died. A few years later in 2009 they moved their head office to Oakville. Tim Horton's stock was trading under the symbol THI and many Canadians and Canadian based mutual funds bought the stock. This is why everyone started waving the Canadian flag as they were getting their bad coffee fix. Here is an excerpt from an article by the Canadian Press:



David Friend THE CANADIAN PRESS, Published on Mon Jun 29 2009 





















Considering that many Canadians practically bleed Tim Hortons coffee on any given workday, it may come as a surprise to some that the much-beloved chain is once again returning its home base to Canada.

Didn't know Tims was actually based in the United States up until now? That's easy to forgive, considering just how deeply ingrained the brand has become in the Canadian consciousness. But it is true that the house built on the doughnut and double-double was for nearly 15 years – a result of its purchase by U.S. burger chain Wendy's – registered far away in the State of Delaware.

Parent company Tim Hortons Inc. (TSX: THI) announced Monday it has filed documents in the United States that would to shift its corporate ownership back north of the border. Its current Canadian headquarters is in Oakville, west of Toronto.

The company says the move – which it had said it was considering earlier this year – will save on taxes and make international expansion easier.

It certainly won't hurt its image with Canadians either, because the famous chain is probably the country's most-treasured brand


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## JCM50 (Oct 5, 2011)

Krelf said:


> It certainly won't hurt its image with Canadians either, because the famous chain is probably the country's most-treasured brand


I would not say the most treasured brand. 

No one knows them outside of Canada. We have far better companies than that, like Bombardier, Maax, Blackberry, Celestica etc...

If you want to stay in the retail industry that is Canadian centric, I would say that Canadian Tire is one of the most treasured retail brands we have.

Tim Hortons - treasured? No way.


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

I agree with you 100%. But the words are those of David Friend's of the Canadian Press, not mine.


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## Dr.StringBender (Mar 1, 2014)

Someone has to say something here. So I'll apologize if I offend anyone, hopefully I will not. Just an different point of view. 

Arguing about coffee brands is like arguing about flavors of ice cream. Some prefer Vanilla, some chocolate and some flip their wig over Tiger Tail (gag). I like Tims coffee, sometimes I like a darker roast or a latte and hit the Starbucks. Is starbucks a better company because it's American? And McDonalds is somehow coming out smelling like a rose in the comments previous to mine? I find this all head scratching, and simply couldn't pass up a chance to maybe play devils advocate, and provide some perspective. As I see it anyways. 

We all boast about our steal of a deal on our MIM teles and strats etc, based shamelessly on significantly cheaper Mexican labour and real estate? So its okay for Gibson, Fender, and just about every other guitar maker to find an alternate residence in which to save money and make profit? No? but it is okay to keep it 100% American and charge ludicrous amounts of money for a TRUE AMERICAN MADE instrument. *cue the flag waving* 

Does anyone else see the double double American standard? (haha see what I did there?) Obviously seeing anyone lose their job is terrible, especially on the home front. However, as a business owner myself, if I acquired another business, would I used their accountants, and pay 2 of them? Would I pay 2 marketing companies, and pay both? If you were paying the bills, would you? I certainly wouldn't. I would trim down and perhaps give more opportunity for my own people to step up. It's like buying someone else's guitar and continuing to use their luthier/tech instead of the guy(s) you have history and trust with, or their brand of strings (you get the idea)

Do I like it? No. Agree? No. But come on now, it's easy to spatter on about how evil globalizaton is, and I agree for the most part. I am just saying, that praising Starbucks, McDonalds, Fender, Gibson and hundreds of companies we all use probably use daily, for doing (and have been for eons) the same thing as Tim Hortons new owners, is kinda.. well. You know.

I know, I know the new guy is spouting off, what do I know, right?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I would say that "the donuts-n-coffee place" is the brand, and Tim Horton's merely a variant of that, although undoubtedly the most familiar because of its omnipresence.

I've mentioned this before, so forgive my repetitiveness: Americans _like_ donuts, but Canadians _need_ them. I learned this the August of 1990, when I drove from Victoria BC to Fredericton, half through some northern states (Washington, Idaho, Montana, North Dakota, Minnesota and Wisconsin) and the other half on the Canadian side.

Why the distinction? When Americans want to grumble about their boss/kids/spouse/boyfriend/girlfriend/car/landlord/near-lotto-win/employees/government/neighbours/welfare officer/etc., they do it over a light beer in a dark bar with a neon Coors, Bud, or Schlitz sign (often missing a letter) buzzing in the background. Indeed, I found the population threshold for having a bar was generally lower than the minimum population required to have a donut place.

In Canada, when a person wishes to grumble about the same things, they do it over a coffee and donut. The tradition may have something to do with liquor-licensing laws.It may have something to do with the nature of shift-work in places like Hamilton, and what's open at 4:00AM. It may have something to do with the needs of truckers. It may be the sort of place you canhave beside a major highway in cottage country. I don't know. But the differences are there, and the role of coffee&donut places in the Canadian mindset is distinctively Canadian; as distinctively Canadian as a pub is distinctively British or Irish, or a "sports bar" with a bunch of old men nursing coffee sludge in a tiny cup is Mediterranean.

Tim Horton's presently holds the crown as prototypic coffee-n-donut place, but there are plenty of places in this country where some other brand, be it Coffee Time, Robin's, Dunkin, or some place that us folk in other regions have never heard of, holds that position.

FWIW, singer Kathleen Edwards decided to get off the road for a bit, and opened up a coffee shop on the outskirts of Ottawa called "Quitters", where she serves up brew and muffins every day.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Great post hammer... I love Kathleen Edwards. Coffee shop does seem much less stressful than touring...and one could sleep at night.

Oh...and bender...brains nor ignorance are cultivated with seniority. Therefore: spout away, it makes a forum a forum. I enjoyed your post.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Duster (Dec 28, 2007)

3G's typical investment thesis for their businesses involves massive cost cutting in the non-production areas - marketing, R&D, product development & testing, etc. They've done the same at Burger King. It remains to be seen what this does to the long-term health of the business, but my guess is that they'll have sold the business by the time the next buyer finds that out.

As for coffee, I only have one thing to say: Second Cup, Flat White. Debate over.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

My wife lasted through the 8 hour training shift at a Tim's. After watching the "food safe" video while every infraction on it was being performed live in front of her at that particular store she thought it best to not involve herself in the hypocrisy. She is still sometimes hesitant to partake in a Tim's to this day. We stop at one maybe 4 times a year.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

I gave up on Tim Horton's several years ago. 

Their 'coffee' doesn't even taste like coffee.


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