# Interesting Theory



## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

I was just thumbing through a guitar theory book and came across a very different name for the F scale one flat, Bb. The author of the book has the Bb in it's proper place in the staff and an arrow to the following line "key signature: tells us we are in the key of G minor, all B notes are flat". now I can chase this theory around and around, the Bb is the fourth of F major and the G minor is the relative minor of Bb and so on, but I have never run into a song, or scale where a substitution was done and the substitution was given the key signature of the major scale, according to this book one flat Bb tells us this is G minor. Has anyone else come across a similar thing. I know there are lots of theory guys here on GC.


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

typo - gotta be. Contact the author. 
It would be D minor if anything.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

jeremy_green said:


> typo - gotta be. Contact the author.
> It would be D minor if anything.


This is consistent throughout the book, every scale exercise uses the G minor pentatonic scale and it always resolves to Bb or G minor and yet the signature is consistent with F major. The book is called Pentatonic Improvisation and is written by Erik Halbig he has a "music " degree from 
SO CAL University. I have just tried to follow him on the internet and everything came up invalid url, name etc. I now have to do a sweep of my computer to clean the crap left behind by the so called secure web site he is on listed on stay away, Hey I'm on a new Imac and I have to clean it.


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

In his defence, there is actually only one flat in the G minor pentatonic scale (G Bb C D F). However, a single Bb doesn't equal the key signature of Gm or Bb. At the very least it's a confusing way to teach.


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

OK I think I see what is going on here. You COULD call what you are referring to G Dorian. In G Dorian the Gmin would be the I chord and Yes it is the same notes and the key of F.... But to call it Gmin is a VERY strange way of referring to that. Saying only minor generally refers to natural minor (Aeolian)

Dorian is the go to mode for minor and typically the one used with a pentatonic scale.

It's an odd way to describe that


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

jeremy_green said:


> OK I think I see what is going on here. You COULD call what you are referring to G Dorian. In G Dorian the Gmin would be the I chord and Yes it is the same notes and the key of F.... But to call it Gmin is a VERY strange way of referring to that. Saying only minor generally refers to natural minor (Aeolian)
> 
> Dorian is the go to mode for minor and typically the one used with a pentatonic scale.
> 
> It's an odd way to describe that


That was my assumption too Jeremy, except I wouldn't call it odd, I'd call it wrong.

For the purposes of instruction I would counsel my students that this description is wrong, and at best very misleading. It irritates me a bit when folks more or less rewrite definitions this way. There are problems associated with using only one flat for G minor pentatonic, like for example when the harmony uses a Cm chord, why write in an Eb when it should be in the key signature? Pentatonic, though by definition 5 notes, is often harmonized using diatonic (heptatonic if you like) harmony and that should be accounted for in the key signature. We could think of it this way, pentatonic is a scale rather than a key signature.

Peace, Mooh.


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

Does this clarify anything? "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search 

B♭ majorG major G, A, B♭, C, D, E♭, F, G

G minor
Relative key
Parallel key

Component pitches*G minor* is a minor scale based on G, consisting of the pitches G, A, B♭, C, D, E♭, and F. For the harmonic minor scale, the F is raised to F♯. Its relative major is B-flat major, and its parallel major is G major.
Changes needed for the melodic and harmonic versions of the scale are written in with accidentals as necessary. G minor is one of two flat key signatures that requires a sharp for the leading tone (the other is D minor).
During the Baroque period music in G minor was usually written with a one-flat key signature[SUP][_citation needed_][/SUP], and some modern editions of that repertoire retain that convention.


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

Mooh said:


> That was my assumption too Jeremy, except I wouldn't call it odd, I'd call it wrong.
> 
> For the purposes of instruction I would counsel my students that this description is wrong, and at best very misleading. It irritates me a bit when folks more or less rewrite definitions this way. There are problems associated with using only one flat for G minor pentatonic, like for example when the harmony uses a Cm chord, why write in an Eb when it should be in the key signature? Pentatonic, though by definition 5 notes, is often harmonized using diatonic (heptatonic if you like) harmony and that should be accounted for in the key signature. We could think of it this way, pentatonic is a scale rather than a key signature.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


Mooh, I VERY much agree with you - but I don't like calling out another schooled musician unless I actually read the text myself. Perhaps there is a footnote or intro or something that explains this. But if there were I would assume the OP would have seen it.... but maybe not. Without the book in my hands it remains "odd"

I also agree that it irritates me too when people make changes to the linguistics of theory. Every time you call someone out they tag you as argumentative or splitting hairs. But the truth is we NEED some sort of convention to properly communicate ideas. It NEEDS to be specific. One just so happens to have been developed. So use it. Make observations sure, but stick to formal approaches until the community at large accepts them.

So because the pentatonic minor from Dorian is one that most GUITARISTS use most... it should become the defacto new minor scale??? This is where this kind of thing goes. I am not saying the author intends or implies this. But i wouldn't be surprised these days.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Fair enough on the callling out, but could you tell my big button was pushed? LOL! 

The conventions work, and they work well, reinventing a wheel that only applies to limited concepts is pointless. 

I'd love to get my hands on a copy of that book to see for myself. I'm not sure how it could be, but I suppose a massive proofreading/editing issue might be the issue.

Peace, Mooh.



jeremy_green said:


> Mooh, I VERY much agree with you - but I don't like calling out another schooled musician unless I actually read the text myself. Perhaps there is a footnote or intro or something that explains this. But if there were I would assume the OP would have seen it.... but maybe not. Without the book in my hands it remains "odd"
> 
> I also agree that it irritates me too when people make changes to the linguistics of theory. Every time you call someone out they tag you as argumentative or splitting hairs. But the truth is we NEED some sort of convention to properly communicate ideas. It NEEDS to be specific. One just so happens to have been developed. So use it. Make observations sure, but stick to formal approaches until the community at large accepts them.
> 
> So because the pentatonic minor from Dorian is one that most GUITARISTS use most... it should become the defacto new minor scale??? This is where this kind of thing goes. I am not saying the author intends or implies this. But i wouldn't be surprised these days.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

Mooh said:


> Fair enough on the callling out, but could you tell my big button was pushed? LOL!
> 
> The conventions work, and they work well, reinventing a wheel that only applies to limited concepts is pointless.
> 
> ...


I made an error when I said this was consistent throughout the book I should have said it was specific to 13 pages of the book and that the author wrote and stated that the Bb signature told us we were in the key of G minor, it could not have been missed on a proof read or an edit as the author made a point of highlighting it as being the key of G minor. He said to use a minor type scale, such as a Dorian mode, but he does not use the complete Dorian scale in the exercises, all the scales where written in the G minor pentatonic form. He also called it a new concept in pentatonic improvisation. 
I have out of my own curiosity spent a few hours trying to see if I could find a way to make this G minor scale a part of the key of F by using Dorian mode, phrygian mode etc. and there probably is a way using substitutions etc. I just haven't had the time to play with it. All his exercises on these 13 paged leave out important notes relative to the Dorian scale. Anyway my intention was to get some discussion on this and it seems that is what has been happening. The book is available at www.sheetmusicplus.com


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

Hold on a second - you said "the *Bb signature* told us we were in the key of G minor" that IS correct The relative minor of the key of Bb is G.... are you sure there is only one flat showing in the key signature? Because one flat is the key of F - no questions about it. If it is showing a key of F and referring to G minor as the relative minor that is wrong.

The pentatonic minor shape can be viewed as the internal structure of the Dorian mode. It contains all the critical notes (1, b3, 5, b7). So the Dorian is typically 'overlaid' on the pentatonic skeleton if you will. It is simple to make it Dorian - simply take the Dorian modal shape and start it with its lowest note on the note G (3rd fret E string). 

BTW - G Phrygian is different - it would be the key pf Eb


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

The Bb note in the signature ( there is only one flat in the key signature as he has written it) according to the author tells us that this is the key of G minor, as he has written the scale he plays 1,b3,4,5,b7 and back to one starting on G this is a G minor pentatonic scale. The Dorian mode of the F scale would start on G but would be 1(G) 2,b3,4,5,6,b7 back to G which when played would be the F scale started on the second note of the F scale. I am going to post a picture later of the actual page from the book just to try and clarify what I am seeing and saying.


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

You should definitely contact the author somehow and ask for clarification.... or dump the book and move on taking from it maybe other things. To be clear - I do believe what you are saying is there. Have you read the introduction or other supporting text in the book? Perhaps the author mentions early that his approach veers from conventional blah blah blah.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

I finally got time to post the picture of the page that has the G minor scale?? I have gone through probably a dozen books on pentatonic scales and this author is the only one I found that gives the G minor scale one flat. After doing fairly extensive research I found several reviews of his work. He is considered an excellent musician and a very innovative, experimental, aggressive proponent of expanding the use and variation of pentatonic scales. His work is said to be very non-traditional, meaning if he wants to call that scale a G minor he will. Experimental/non-traditional sometimes wrong but very well respected. 
http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j378/mrmusicmechanic/IMG_0163.jpg


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## gtrchris (Apr 1, 2007)

I've seen this type of notation in the past with non-western scales like Hijaz Kar and music from other cultures. It's an easier approach from a notation point of view once the scale tones are spelled out (where you would typically find a traditional key signature), then the composer doesn't have to re write accidentals throughout the piece. It can be tricky as they don't conform to our standard key signatures. For example I was playing a Turkish piece once on a session that had a Gb written in the key signature. The piece was based around F and all the classical western trained musicians on the session played the piece with a Bb because they were so accustomed to seeing one flat as being in the key of F or D-. The conductor had to stop and wasn't very happy that none of the brass section had noticed that it wasn't a B that was flat but a G..ha.ha lesson learned- never assume how things will be written or that all music is in standard major and minor keys!


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