# Asking someone how,,.



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

,.,much they make? 

I feel like it was mostly a no-no back in the day but with the way things are now, is it acceptable?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I think it's still a no no.

I can't imagine what has changed to make it acceptable, but I don't tend to stay up on the latest social norms.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

In the workplace,
a lot of employers still don't like their employees to talk to each other about pay. It leads to discontent, because in their heads, everybody thinks they are the best and should be paid the most. While the reality of it could be something very different. 
On a union job, everybody gets the same. (but there is still some fudge room to reward top performers)

In a social setting? people totally driven by money and the acquisition of money, will probably tell you what they make without being asked. The rest might tell you with a little gentle probing. Not taboo by any means.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Lincoln said:


> In the workplace,
> a lot of employers still don't like their employees to talk to each other about pay. It leads to discontent, because in their heads, everybody thinks they are the best and should be paid the most. While the reality of it could be something very different.
> On a union job, everybody gets the same. (but there is still some fudge room to reward top performers)
> 
> In a social setting? people totally driven by money and the acquisition of money, will probably tell you what they make without being asked. The rest might tell you with a little gentle probing. Not taboo by any means.


No less taboo than asking a woman her age or weight I suppose.

I wouldn’t.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I would ask someone what they make, especially if I want to work somewhere else. I would also preface the question with that information.

Not talking about who makes how much in a workplace only benefits employers.

I think the person being asked would notice if it's malicious or not.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

depends on who is asking 
gov = as little as possible
phone surveys = 120K ( or more depending on bonuses , age 35-40 , married 3 times , 8 kids , 3 degrees , 2 houses and the yacht ... ) 
family, friends and neighbours = enough to get along.

in reality , it varies month to month ... depends on the pensions, winnings , and "odd" jobs that pop up time to time .


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Milkman said:


> No less taboo than asking a woman her age or weight I suppose.
> 
> I wouldn’t.


bringing women into it changes everything of course. but man to man, friendly atmosphere, everything cool, it's not so big of a deal. 

If you find out someone is making more than you are, is it going to make you try harder to obtain that next level? Or is it going to make you give up and go live in a van down my the river? I would think you'd try harder/look for ways to get to that next level. A person who's comfortable with what they make, shouldn't have a problem talking about it in a friendly & semi private social setting.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

With good friends sure. Anyone else I wouldn't ask them but would tell them if they ask.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Lincoln said:


> bringing women into it changes everything of course. but man to man, friendly atmosphere, everything cool, it's not so big of a deal.
> 
> If you find out someone is making more than you are, is it going to make you try harder to obtain that next level? Or is it going to make you give up and go live in a van down my the river? I would think you'd try harder/look for ways to get to that next level. A person who's comfortable with what they make, shouldn't have a problem talking about it in a friendly & semi private social setting.


Everybody has their own comfort level I guess.

Personally I wouldn't dream of asking such a question, and if someone asked me, I'd tell them it was not an appropriate question to ask.

I have access to the HR files so I know what most people in our company is paid, including some in positions above mine and some who held my current position in the past.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Milkman said:


> I think it's still a no no.
> 
> I can't imagine what has changed to make it acceptable, but I don't tend to stay up on the latest social norms.


social norms are changing,. We’re investing online now, you’re still investing with your parents guy. I’m sure it’s ok to ask certain questions without feeling like it’s taboo


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Budda said:


> Not talking about who makes how much in a workplace only benefits employers.


Exactly


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Milkman said:


> Everybody has their own comfort level I guess.
> 
> Personally I wouldn't dream of asking such a question, and if someone asked me, I'd tell them it was not an appropriate question to ask.
> 
> I have access to the HR files so I know what most people in our company is paid, including some in positions above mine and some who held my current position in the past.


So it’s ok to know but not to ask?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

vadsy said:


> social norms are changing,. We’re investing online now, you’re still investing with your parents guy. I’m sure it’s ok to ask certain questions without feeling like it’s taboo


I'm not sure what you're saying, but I'll wager not everybody would find a question about their wage or salary to be a normal or comfortable thing to ask.

Yes, social norms are changing and that's why I said I'm not up speed on the latest in social norms.


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## DaddyDog (Apr 21, 2017)

I don't think it has changed. For the most part, not acceptable. There are other sources now for salary info.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

vadsy said:


> So it’s ok to know but not to ask?


Whatever.

Ask that to some people and they'll tell you.


Others will tell you to F%ck yourself.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

You can always ask.
Doesn't mean that you'll get an answer.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Im younger than most replying: why, exactly, is it bad for me to ask what you make?

And what about the retirees?

Everyone guesses based on your house, car, hobbies and travel plans anyway.

I know I have friends who make double what I do. Income disparity, for me, doesnt matter except for my household income.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

at the beginning it was taboo.
as life progressed , it mattered if someone under you made as much or more ( union or not )
it motivated one to search out better ( greener) pastures ... 
so you give the existing company a chance to match ( or correct the imbalance ) or walk and move on up the pay scale.
when you know what you're actually worth ( and someone is willing to pay for it ) , it's easy to make decisions .
that leaves the old company looking for a replacement (with your honed skill set ) ... good luck .

eventually , a lot decide to make all the money for themselves instead of taking just a cut.

then the real money starts rolling in and one isn't fixated on what the other guy is making anymore.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I worked on pay equity for about a year and a half. In general, once you factor out all the gender-associated things that might impact on wages earned (e.g., educational opportunity, family obligations and availability for overtime, etc.), the pay gap between men and women in the provincial and federal government tends to be less than in the private sector. Not because folks in government are that much more fair-minded than anyone else. Rather unionized work environments, especially in the public sector, have collective agreements and more importantly, job classification systems. And as the folks in classificatio_n_ I worked with used to tell me, classification = compensation. That is, one's pay depends on meeting the criteria for a given classification of job-group X at level Y. That is not to say that there is NO fudging of job descriptions whatsoever, or that no one is ever asked to take on responsibilities above their pay grade because the budget won't pay for promotions. HOWEVER, those sorts of work environments will have an org chart that identifies every employee's classification, such that higher-ups can budget the overall pay envelope for the coming year. And once you know what a person's classification is - as identified in the org char, that all co-workers can see - you have a pretty clear idea of what they're paid, within a small margin (e.g., if they hold a higher degree or have more tenure, they might move up the pay scale a smidgen).

Why am I telling you this? Because one of the ways in which the private sector can foster gender wage gaps - even if not intentionally - is by NOT having collective agreements and classification systems. As employer, I can call "his" job one title, and "hers" another. Their paycheck is private. So they might be doing the exact same thing for their work, but she gets paid less, and doesn't _know_ she's being paid less, because every position is considered relatively unique and there is no standard or job-classification criteria. That doesn't mean the private sector _couldn't_ adopt classification systems; they just generally don't, partly because a certain organizational size and history is required for such a thing to make sense or be feasible. Any parity, gender or otherwise, that is achieved, is going to rely fully on the employer's desire to achieve it, rather than a system that automatically takes care of it.

This is the very long way of saying that the gender wage gap might be reducible in the private sector if people DID ask each other how much they make. Of course, the degree of suspicion, resentment, and disruption that would create is separate from the degree to which it moves employers towards equal pay for equal work. I've never claimed that "fair" is easy. Indeed, "fair" is often troublesome, which is why it's rarer than we'd wish it to be.

Apart from that, asking people how much they make is a bit like asking other people at the bus-stop what their preferred sexual position is: an interesting question, but not one to elicit much co-operation.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Like I said, not discussing pay at work only benefits employers.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

private industry is out to make the most amount of money off you and paying you as little as possible . ( everyone )

if they can pay someone less than you , they will and usually make you redundant . ( skill set no longer needed , going in a different direction )
company loyalty means nothing to them ... just another thing to use up and toss away .

a few shops are good , but most are run by bean counters.


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## Ricktoberfest (Jun 22, 2014)

Budda said:


> Like I said, not discussing pay at work only benefits employers.


And those who make more than the others. 

I don’t mind telling people outside of work what I make, but I don’t want people at work judging me as being worth more or less than them based on pay.

I got a fellow employees check by accident once, saw what they made, and immediately judged them for it. I couldn’t believe that just cause he was the bosses kid he made that much more than me. Especially when I’m the one who helped train him. 

Oh- and my wife thinks it’s really bad to let anyone know what you make. She’s old school that way. 


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I dont judge coworkers on pay, just work ethic and competence.


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## Ricktoberfest (Jun 22, 2014)

Budda said:


> I dont judge coworkers on pay, just work ethic and competence.


I can handle someone less competent than me, but when they’re also being paid more then...


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

Ricktoberfest said:


> couldn’t believe that just cause he was the bosses kid he made that much more than me. Especially when I’m the one who helped train him


shocked and appalled?

can't believe they'd do that . down right unfair . musta been a mistake.
or the boss showing up in a new Mercedes monday morning right after he tells you the company can't afford to pay you more. 
strange he got so upset when you walked down the street to the competitor that afternoon.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Ricktoberfest said:


> I don’t mind telling people outside of work what I make, but I don’t want people at work judging me as being worth more or less than them based on pay.


Twenty-odd years back, I was teaching a CEGEP course on essentially psychology of the workplace to a class that was mostly computer-science folks, but about 20% admin-support folks. We went around the room asking people what they look for in a job, what their "ideal" workplace would be. Pretty much uniformly they said things like interesting work with regular challenges, decent coworkers, room for advancement, doing work that had social value, etc. Then it came to one student who said quite emphatically "The money has to be on the table, because that means they respect me."

A very telling comment. People do equate money with worth as a person or employee. I suspect one of the reasons why many folks are skittish about revealing their salary is because it runs the risk of flagging them as someone who is either unrespected by their employer (or clients), or is perhaps _over_-respected, implying that the person asking the question is respected by their employer either more or less than the person they asked.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

It's never polite to count other people's money.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Budda said:


> I dont judge coworkers on pay, just work ethic and competence.


What about when you find out a coworker with similar seniority and qualifications is making 30% more than you?

Frankly, that's how unions are started.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

one place I worked , there was a fellow employee 
he got his fiancee a job at the company , but she also got a better offer from a bigger company a week later.
she was torn between staying or accepting the better job.

told her to follow the money , and run to the other company.

6 months later she "hired" the future husband away to the other company . they both made a lot more after that.

in private industry , usually respect has nothing to do with it .... just who you know and who your contacts are ( or who you are related to ) 
your skill set portability has a better chance of affecting your pay than how much they respect you.

being told "be thankful you have a job" or "xxxx are a dime a dozen" inspires one to look elsewhere ... 
also nice to see their jaw drop as you tell'em "OK , xxxx just hired me for $$$$ more, good bye"
their huffing , puffing and bulging eyes are priceless.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

Contract work is always variable income so I’d be lying if ever I say “this is how much I make”. The only people who ever ask are creditors and it’s pretty funny quoting gross income when it’s 50% material expenses.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Lincoln said:


> In the workplace,
> a lot of employers still don't like their employees to talk to each other about pay. It leads to discontent, because in their heads, everybody thinks they are the best and should be paid the most. While the reality of it could be something very different.
> *On a union job, everybody gets the same. (but there is still some fudge room to reward top performers)*
> 
> In a social setting? people totally driven by money and the acquisition of money, will probably tell you what they make without being asked. The rest might tell you with a little gentle probing. Not taboo by any means.


(My bold underline.)

In a previous life, I worked on union jobs, held cards in three different unions (if I include the musician's union, the others we SEIU and CAW), and was the negotiator for workers in hospitals, homes for the aged, library, municipal, school board support, etc (broader public service) and never encountered a collective agreement where everyone got the same. A contract under which everyone got the same would the pretty shitty. Pay depended on job classification, seniority, trades, with additional premiums for shifts and responsibility, etc. Sure, the base rate for a single classification would be the same, but (for example) the kitchen/dietary rate wouldn't be the same as the maintenance or RPN rates, or in another workplace the custodial and trades rates would be different, or in another the labourer rate wouldn't be the same as the grader operator. I also never negotiated a collective agreement with extra pay for top performers, though they do exist they're not common.

When wages or salary are a matter of public interest, like with any public service collective agreement, it's not that hard to find out what folks earn. Outside of researching wages for comparitive negotiation purposes I don't know why it matters to anyone what another makes. My experience was that unions talk to one another and share information, just like employers do.

In my current life, socially I'm asked all the time what I make, usually under the guise of "what do you charge per lesson?" and "how many students do you have?" and "how many lessons do you teach per year?" Frankly I don't care if people know it, it's nothing to gossip about, but I don't enjoy disclosing it for no particular reason. The big qualifiers are that it's subject to change at my discretion (which I do in September) and it's not negotiable.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Milkman said:


> What about when you find out a coworker with similar seniority and qualifications is making 30% more than you?
> 
> Frankly, that's how unions are started.


Ask for a raise or that they take 30% more work on?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Milkman said:


> What about when you find out a coworker with similar seniority and qualifications is making 30% more than you?
> 
> Frankly, that's how unions are started.


I dont even think that's possible where I work. And if that's the case, that person better put in more hours and get more done than I do. That is a very short list of people, even taking the seniority out.

Someone who's been there something like 18 years told me a story about some employees wanted to unionize, they all got let go the same day.

There's a few reasons Im forcing myself to find new work in 2020, none of which I can technically disclose here.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Super interesting topic.

I don't like to be asked. No good can come of it.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

Budda said:


> a story about some employees wanted to unionize, they all got let go the same day.


 really ? shocking !

like the McD's in downtown montreal ... employees were warned not to try it ... went ahead and held a secret ballot ... got the union in , but before they could ratify an agreement , the store closed up shop ( no longer profitable ) and shut its doors . they laid everyone off on the spot . 

yes they won a union, but lost the battle.

none of the their other shops have attempted to unionize. (AFAIK)


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## blueshores_guy (Apr 8, 2007)

Back in the days when I worked for other people, I was in charge of I.T. for a fairly large company, and reported to the CFO, someone 10 to 15 years younger than I.
When salary review time came around, he started by opening my personnel file, read for a bit, and his eyes went wide. He excused himself, walked into the CEO's office, shut the door, had a short conversation there, then came back to me with a big smile on his face. "Now", he said, "we can talk about how much YOU should make." So it was pretty obvious to me that, before his talk with the CEO, he was making less than me.
I got a nice raise that day, and so did he.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

was hired as the director of the IT dept for a company ... things went well for about 8 months 
the CEO decided to move the company to california and strike it big with an idea of his .
told him we didn't have the talent to pull it off , but he insisted on going .... 
thanked him but declined to follow .
he got a bit upset and pulled my " stock bonus " ( just paper at the time )

struck out on my own at that point ( contract work as a gun for hire which worked out well )

he was back in town after losing his shirt ( and then some ) about a year later.
( california has equal spousal laws in divorces )
she took him to the cleaners ,
then the vapour ware he was selling got call out ( not ready for prime time )
company folded , he went bankrupt .


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Milkman said:


> Others will tell you to F%ck yourself.


I'm sure I'd be much more opposed to the idea if I had 'subordinates'. 

After all those posts, it's still a little vague where you stand on this.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

I don't give a flying F^&* what you make, never have and what I make is none of your business. When asked I'd say that. The only time the numbers on my paycheck were important was a job I had where every payday we played paycheck poker. The last 5 numbers on your check was your poker hand.....$5 anty and $5 bets. Sometimes the pot was decent.....over $200. 
@Lincoln......I've worked enough union jobs.....IWA, CUPE, IBEW, IBT. to know that not everyone gets the same.....seniority for one thing makes a difference, performance doesn't.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Electraglide said:


> @Lincoln......I've worked enough union jobs.....IWA, CUPE, IBEW, IBT. to know that not everyone gets the same.....seniority for one thing makes a difference, performance doesn't.


not all unions are the same though. In the building trades unions where I come from, there is no such thing as seniority. If you're a fvck-up, then you're at the top of the lay-off list. Doesn't matter how long you've been there. Unless of course you're regularly blowing the boss, or you married his daughter, in which case everything good & right goes out the window. 

I have a friend that works for CN. That union is based on seniority. The one who's been there the longest gets first choice on everything, then it works on down the line, all based on seniority. I think that's just asking for a company full of dog-fvckers. If you've got some time in with the company, you are untouchable. The Teflon man. 
My apologizes to any CN workers who are members of GC and reading this. 

The whole union concept has been horribly perverted along the way. But then again, look at how businesses are run these days. That's way more perverted than even the worst union.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Lincoln said:


> In the workplace,
> a lot of employers still don't like their employees to talk to each other about pay. It leads to discontent, because in their heads, everybody thinks they are the best and should be paid the most. While the reality of it could be something very different.
> On a union job, everybody gets the same. (but there is still some fudge room to reward top performers)


You must be a manager.


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## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

This thread kinda went sideways. What started out as a simple question which was whether it is appropriate to ask (or be asked) how much you make turned into a bitch session about your least favorite employer. On the first issue, at least for me, it's raises the bigger question of whether our privacy is worth anything anymore. I guess I'm old fashioned but the rate at which our individual rights and privacy are being decimated scares the hell outta me. Therefore, I don't think it's anyone's business what I make or mine what they make. Period. On the second issue, I'll gladly take the seemingly unpopular position that not all employers are assholes. I owe everything I am and have to the company that I have worked for for the past 35 years. Ask not what your company can do for you....or is that also "old fashioned"?


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Twenty years ago I was grossing three times what I gross today. My take-home however isn't that much different, and I'm a whole helluvalot happier.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Swervin55 said:


> This thread kinda went sideways. *What started out as a simple question* which was whether it is appropriate to ask (or be asked) how much you make turned into a bitch session about your least favorite employer. On the first issue, at least for me, it's raises the bigger question of whether our privacy is worth anything anymore. I guess I'm old fashioned but the rate at which our individual rights and privacy are being decimated scares the hell outta me. Therefore, I don't think it's anyone's business what I make or mine what they make. Period. On the second issue, I'll gladly take the seemingly unpopular position that not all employers are assholes. I owe everything I am and have to the company that I have worked for for the past 35 years. Ask not what your company can do for you....or is that also "old fashioned"?


Vadsey NEVER asks a simple question


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Granny Gremlin said:


> You must be a manager.


actually I'm not. I'm a "senior" grunt, I wear coveralls, I get down & dirty.


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## iamthehub (Sep 21, 2016)

Its funny. I get asked that a lot. 

I'm not exactly offended, but believe it's nobody's business. 

I think they ask because I'm a photographer and I think people are curios if it's a viable job that maybe they want to pursue (since anyone with a camera can start their own company). 

I tell them "I'll tell you what I make only if you tell me what you make"... Which ends that topic of conversation fast. 

Or I'll tell them "Money issues doesn't keep me up at night... But what does keep me up is figuring out what mods to make on my guitar...."





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## iamthehub (Sep 21, 2016)

I remember about 20+ years ago I worked for a dot-com company. I accidentally got sent the company payroll data. I was supposed to only get employee numbers but the admin person messed up...

There were some real idiots that made some real good money. It depressed me to find out I was 2nd lowest paid person in a company of 120 people. Even owners wife made more - and she didn't even work there!

What upset me even more was that one of the VPs got a 6 figure bonus which was 2.5X more than what i made in a year. 

Don't know exactly what happened but company is no longer in existence... Maybe they ran out of money 



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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

1st thing i want to say is the wage gap is a myth, and it's been debunked for a loooong time. even if some people refuse to accept it, it's fact.

2nd thing i want to say is, asking someone what they make (for me) is contextual. when a high school kid asks me what i make because he's thinking about going into the trades, sure, i'll tell him.
however, there was the time i was working at a hospital. i was on a break, and a nurse came up and struck up a conversation. body language told me alot but when she asked me how much i make, it was an immediate red flag. i dodged the question, so she waited a couple minutes, then re-worded it. i dodged it again, then excused myself. although i saw her talk to other construction guys after that, she never approached me after that. go figure.

when i worked merit shop, you didn't discuss wages because not everyone made the same, and it created resentment. people claim this only benefits the employer, but that's trite. 
i've seen several times when it got out how much someone was making, and others turned against them out of jealousy. the difference between guy A and guy B is not always skill, education and work ethic. as often as not, it's dependent on who you know, and how good of a negotiator you are.

being union, we all make the same but there are differentials for leadership positions, shift work, hazard or travel pay, overtime, etc. there are some guys who make a fair bit more than everyone else through these criteria, but not tons in my local. what i have found is, the better your network, the less likely you are to be laid off, or make "steady". there are basically 4 tiers. guys who never get laid off n matter what, (very small group) guys who are kept until there is absolutely no other choice, (where i am) the great unwashed (95% of the men) and guys who never last long because they flat out suck, for various reasons.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Swervin55 said:


> I owe everything I am and have to the company that I have worked for for the past 35 years. Ask not what your company can do for you....


Unless you're saying you're self-employed, no you don't. You did it yourself. I've had fantastic employers that I'll defend to the hilt, but I don't owe my life to them.
Funny about perspectives in this thread. You see it as a bunch of people bitching about their horrible bosses, I notice more the management/ownership types trying to discourage 'Joe the workers' from discussing wages amongst themselves. Different biases I guess.


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## reckless toboggan (Mar 9, 2019)

A couple of the foundational tenets of Capitalism are being freely and well informed and having equal bargaining power (ie. these are requirements for Capitalism to function fairly and properly).

So it's no wonder that companies and corporations don't want those key tenets exercised.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Budda said:


> Like I said, not discussing pay at work only benefits employers.


Can you expand on this.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I get asked at gigs what we get paid quite often. I assume it's because people think us rock stars make a lot of money playing the local bars. Never fails to amuse me when they're shocked at how little we get paid. Pretty sure that 100% of the time their embarrassed response is something like "Well you play because you love it - not for the money". Sure I do


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

LanceT said:


> Can you expand on this.


I gather he means that if one doesn't know how much more _some_ people are earning, then one is apt to be more satisfied with how much_ less_ one is earning. As I noted earlier, on page 2, that's part of the basis for the gender wage gap.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Mark has it.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

I'm public sector. Google it if you wish.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Honestly, if I someone in our office was asking others how much they were paid I’m quite sure they would be told by everyone that it was none of their business.

I suppose things are different in different working environments.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Milkman said:


> I have access to the HR files so I know what most people in our company is paid, including some in positions above mine and some who held my current position in the past.





Milkman said:


> Honestly, if I someone in our office was asking others how much they were paid I’m quite sure they would be told by everyone that it was none of their business.


or they could ask you? lol


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

laristotle said:


> or they could ask you? lol


I can’t unsee what I have seen, but no, they should not ask me.

At any rate, I do the performance reviews for most of our associates here so I tell them how much they’ll be earning.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

And that, my friend, is the catbird seat.


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## brucew (Dec 30, 2017)

Only thing I'll contribute is this: equal opportunity means that. It doesn't mean equal results. For the most part what people earn is a direct result of what they put into it and the decisions they've made over their lives; ability/potential definitely plays a part.
For eg: when I was in the trades(self employed/business) I knew others who did much better than I; were they better tradesman? I don't think so, we're they better businessmen? Yes.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

and that's a different skill set they don't teach anywhere.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I do taxes for a living. I know what lots of people make. Mostly it's just numbers. If you can get it then you've earned it. Having said that, there are a select number of people who don't realize what they've got and how little they do to get it and constantly whine and demand - relative to those who work their asses off for much less but are aware and appreciate it.

I won't go into who is who - but they're definitely split in to 2 sectors.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Budda said:


> Im younger than most replying: why, exactly, is it bad for me to ask what you make?
> 
> And what about the retirees?
> 
> ...


I usually don't try to guess someone's income based on that, but rather their debt load. 

Canadians 'drowning in debt' as 47% struggle to cover costs: MNP - BNN Bloomberg


Personally, I have to be pretty good friends with someone to talk about such personal issues as favorite sex position, how much I make a year, or how much that guitar cost. 

With the exception of someone just starting out (say, a student) and trying to plan a future, then it's a possibly a fair question. Other than that, it's nekulturny.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

But how would you know their debt load without asking?


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

mhammer said:


> As I noted earlier, on page 2, that's part of the basis for the gender wage gap.


a myth debunked many times, decades ago. if employers could pay women less for the same jobs, there would be no reason to hire men. on top of that women are beginning to out earn men. when you fudge the numbers by way of poor methodology, you can make false claims like yours _seem_ true. however, that doesn't make them _actually_ true. you are spouting nonsense and claiming it to be fact. 






he only touches on the very most superficial aspects of this topic, but still makes his point clearly. one thing i feel is also noteworthy is job choice. despite women claiming they can do anything a man can do, they do not. you don't see many female garbage collectors, their presence in the trades is very minimal, and mostly confined to areas where there is little to no risk/danger, and they, for obvious reasons avoid trades where their physical abilities would make them unable to perform at the required level. of course there are a tiny number of women who serve as exceptions to this, they are outliers. the exception proves the rule.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> a myth debunked many times, decades ago. if employers could pay women less for the same jobs, there would be no reason to hire men. on top of that women are beginning to out earn men. when you fudge the numbers by way of poor methodology, you can make false claims like yours _seem_ true. however, that doesn't make them _actually_ true. you are spouting nonsense and claiming it to be fact.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love when they compare wages in the public sector to "similar jobs" in the private sector - there aren't many similar jobs ................ and who's determining what's equivalent?


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

allthumbs56 said:


> I love when they compare wages in the public sector to "similar jobs" in the private sector - there aren't many similar jobs ................ and who's determining what's equivalent?



i like mhammer because even if i don't always agree with him, he is sincere. if it was anyone else, i would say they were white knighting for feminazis. but he really believes the things he says.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Oh there are PLENTY of jobs that are comparable. Indeed, a significant proportion (about 45%) of federal jobs are identical to office jobs found in pretty well any corner of the private sector. More than most people realize. While federal blue collar jobs are declining as stuff gets contracted out, there are still plenty of welders, drivers, pipefitters, line cooks, ship maintenance, and similar. What my nephew does for the Royal Bank in Brooklyn is identical to what economists do for the Dept. of Finance and Export Development Canada. A Transport Canada manager I shared a shuttle bus with several years back told me that their Winnipeg office couldn't hang on to people, because the energy sector could afford to pay them more.

It is fair to draw attention to the many factors that "explain" the gender wage gap. Some of that is attributable to gender roles. If "she" is expected to pick up the kids from school/daycare so "he" can work longer hours and either earn overtime or put in the showing that gets him promoted but keeps her at the same level, she's going to earn less per year. But even when time put in is controlled for, women often earn less per hour than men. It may not be 1/3 less as some claim, but it sure as hell isn't equal pay for equal work. 

As I noted earlier, when an employer has a formal job classification system that dictates you will be paid THIS wage if your job requires THESE tasks and requirements, gender gaps shrink significantly. The individual positions may well have different titles, but their classification and salary is hemmed in by the formal criteria. And, as also noted earlier, one does not expect smaller employers to have such systems in place. I doubt they are flippantly making someone's son-in-law "senior regional assistant vice-president", as depicted in TV/films, but they have far more flexibility to assign salaries on an arbitrary basis; affordability considered.

Are there overall physical differences between men and women in terms of height, strength, etc. that put some jobs off the table for them? Sure. But there is a helluva lot of overlap. Plenty of men AND women could reach higher than me, and kick my ass and maybe yours royally. And the number of women who can qualify for physically-demanding jobs exceeds the number of such jobs looking for hires. However, as I expect the majority of us here can attest: like hires like, no matter what the occupation or level. T'was ever thus, all around the world, and in every sector and industry.

People who have power always find ways to assemble analysis and dismiss the claims of those who deserve and want an equal say. Whether gender disparities, racial ones, linguistic-group ones, regional ones, sexual orientation ones, age group, disability groups, income-level groups, you name it. People who do not wish to relinquish a single drop of power make every effort to render challenges to that power invalid and not worth considering. They also tend not to provide any criteria for falsification; the true test of any theory.

Remind you of anyone?


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

mhammer said:


> I expect the majority of us here can attest: like hires like, no matter what the occupation or level. T'was ever thus, all around the world, and in every sector and industry.


sad but so true , world wide.



mhammer said:


> Remind you of anyone?


keeping politics out of this ( for obvious reasons ) ... that covers almost every boss/ supervisor / company owner I have ever worked for or dealt with. 

except for the first true dept head that recognized my talent ... a fair minded person , paid employees according to their skills ( male or female )
and listened to you instead of telling you how to do things ... if yours was better, he'd agree and let you run with the ball. if not he'd suggest a better way.
he was one of the few and far in between.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

oldjoat said:


> sad but so true , world wide.
> 
> 
> keeping politics out of this ( for obvious reasons ) ... that covers almost every boss/ supervisor / company owner I have ever worked for or dealt with.
> ...


Agree completely.

One of the more interesting papers I read in my job was from a NY University researcher who specializes in gender bias in hiring. She proposed an interesting notion of an employer's notion of "the competent incumbent". In other words, who and what they imagined when they thought of someone who did a decent job at the job. When one sex was the dominant kind of hire for a particular type of position; say, more than 70% of hires, the sex that constituted the minority would be undervalued in job interviews (i.e., "Not really what we're looking for"). When the gender split moves from 70/30 towards 60/40 or so, the mental image of "competent incumbent" is less associated with one sex or the other.

This would be true of either sort of gender bias/balance. I remember back in my CEGEP teaching days, there was tremendous resistance to me being allowed to teach a section of child development to students in the nursing and early childhood education programs, despite being the only one in the school with a fricking Ph.D. in the stuff. All the other instructors in the two programs were women. And if you've ever had kids in daycare, you'll know just how weird it is to see a guy in those jobs. So, gender bias and expectations of who "would be good at" a given job, based on who has historically been hired for it, shape our perceptions.

This is no different than, say, racial associations with a given occupation. I imagine Black and Indigenous hockey players find their competence challenged on a regular basis by those who strongly associate hockey competence with being Caucasian, because it is what they were used to seeing most of the time, if not ALL the time. When they close their eyes and think "hockey player", other racial/facial identities are NOT what they imagine.

And yes, let's keep politics out of it. My point was really that, no matter what the form of power may be, those who feel entitled to it are reluctant to allow anything that might undermine it. Could be a manager/supervisor, a little league coach, a sibling, coworker, or a spouse. It's a generic quality of humans that does not simply vanish as one ascends to higher positions of power.

But...with respect to Chuck's original question, looking specifically _within_ a workplace (as opposed to asking someone at a cocktail party, a Zumba class, or the bus-stop). some workplaces make it superfluous to ask what that person earns, because their spot on the org chart, and job classification, tells you. And other places make it secret, hence an intrusive and almost adversarial question. On the other hand, if one was looking for work, and you asked someone working for a given employer "So, like, what does it pay?", they might not find it an especially antagonistic question, and may well give you a reply like "Well, when I started out, I was making $XX.XX an hour, but after two years they raised it to $YY.YY". The question is not about them, per se, but about the employer, so it's a "friendlier" question.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Budda said:


> But how would you know their debt load without asking?


Yep. Just like with their income, I'd only be speculating. And judging. %h(*&


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

cheezyridr said:


> he only touches on the very most superficial aspects of this topic, but still makes his point clearly. one thing i feel is also noteworthy is job choice. despite women claiming they can do anything a man can do, they do not. you don't see many female garbage collectors, their presence in the trades is very minimal, and mostly confined to areas where there is little to no risk/danger, and they, for obvious reasons avoid trades where their physical abilities would make them unable to perform at the required level.


Linemen classify people in three groups:

- Linemen (i.e. real men)
- Narrow-backs (men who either aren't or can't be linemen)
- Split-tails (no explanation required, I'm thinkin')

Of course, in other trades, the linemen are often referred to as 'knuckle-draggers'.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

High/Deaf said:


> Linemen classify people in three groups:
> 
> - Linemen (i.e. real men)
> - Narrow-backs (men who either aren't or can't be linemen)
> ...



i've known a woman or so here and there in the other trades. most of them were not worth a shit. however, i have known lots who run data cables and signal stuff. most of those seemed to stay busy and do decent work. except for the welders, all the women i"ve known in the trades were paired with a man while on site, and only did the easy stuff. women don't go for the hard or dangerous jobs because they are (most of them) not physically capable of doing them, or because they're not interested in beating themselves up every day to earn a living. in and of itself, i don't have a problem with that. i tried to have the kind of job where i didn't get dirty or have to do physical labor. i thought it was going to be great, but i hated it.i keep hearing judge smails from caddy shack telling danny noonan "it's ok, the world needs ditch diggers too." when danny asks for help with college tuition. my spirit just isn't meant for a cubicle. i'm happier in a ditch. hahahaha

my gripe with it is 2 aspects

claiming they can do anything a man can do (false) 
claiming wage suppression through a non-existent patriarchy that, even if it did exist, is forbidden by law. as i said, if you could pay a woman less to do the same job, no man would ever get hired to do anything. they like to claim oppression despite being the (specifically western women) the most protected class in all of recorded history. the result of this has been a legal and social system that works against those who built that society in the first place. 
ok, stepping off of my soapbox now... hahahahaha


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

my wife is amazing at problem solving, designing, analyzing data, and working with computer programs. You can sit her down in front of the most horrific, badly written, POS, computer program you could imagine, and she will not move from that chair until she has it mastered. Total focus.

Put her on a job site, and even though she likes to talk a good game, the truth is, real work fascinates her. She can watch it for hours.........


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

we had a female specially trained to do coax cabling and put the end connectors on the cables for a customer's LAN system years ago 
the cables were pre-installed for her , so she just had to put the connectors on each end and label them.

they taught her to strip the center conductor ( with the special tools) , solder the center pin on , slip the outer part of the connector on and crimp it all together ... then test them with a meter.

first day went well , by the end of the week she had most of the cabling finished ....
next week they fired up the network and everything failed 

removing the connector off the back of a computer , the center pin stayed in the computer board and not with the cable.
did you solder each one ?... oh yes ! ... I put a drop of solder on the center conductor and dropped the center pin on each one just like he showed me ... 
um, did you re-flow the solder afterwards ? ... huh? , re-flow? no I kept burning my fingers when I did, it went so much faster when I didn't .... 
OK , how many are like this then ? ... all of them except the 4 he showed me how to 
so that's 156 joints so far that we have to re-check ... oh no , I checked them with the meter , they all read zero errors 
looking at the meter , she has it set on voltage ...
did you label each cable as you did them ? ... oh yes , I put a label number on each one.
then why do some say 23 24 and then jump to 35 ? .... oh , I ran out of ones and twos in the label book 
now I'm sweating , 
"when you did each cable , did you mark the same cable with the same number at both ends ?" ... um , no I just put numbers on as I went along. 

sigh , it was a long week 

two weeks later , she was looking inside a PC , changing a LAN card and her necklace shorted out the power supply ... ( yes it was on when she tried to swap cards)
somehow , she got promoted to another dept.

within a year and a half , she's making more than me .

that was my cue to leave and start my own company .
about a week after I left ... 
"ring ring , hello ? .... " Hi it's xxxx how do I do this ?"
sorry I don't work there anymore , but your company can hire mine to do the work ... um , no , I just need to know how to do it.
well I'm sure you'll figure it out , call again if you change your mind and want my company to do it .... click .


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

oldjoat said:


> somehow , she got promoted to another dept.
> 
> within a year and a half , she's making more than me .


which 'higher up's' daughter was she?


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

she was one of those hired for "gender equality" in industry
to meet their "quota" back in the last century ... as such, she was untouchable 

before you ask, yes she was blond .


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

There are lot of actions and initiatives taken under the guise of "inclusivity" and "diversity".


Most of them are counterproductive and only serve to create more divisions and unfair advantages.


Minority owned businesses (basically any company in the USA not owned by a white male) get distinct advantages in gaining new business.

Major automakers send me requests to complete spreadsheets indicating how many of our suppliers are owned by minorities, women, veterans and LGBTQ.

Can you imagine asking a supplier if they are among those categories?

Unbelievable.

They don't really like my responses but so far we're standing fast.

We do NOT judge suppliers or employees based on any of those criteria and I tell them so.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Milkman said:


> We do NOT judge suppliers or employees based on any of those criteria and I tell them so.


They probably want that info to obtain gov't grants n' such.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

laristotle said:


> They probably want that info to obtain gov't grants n' such.
> View attachment 285442



And tax relief, yes.

But the day I call a supplier and ask them if they are LGBTQ or any other irrelevant information is the day I retire.

I had about an hour long conversation with somebody in the "diversity department" of one of the big automakers where I asked him to explain how they can use the word "inclusivity" in this context.

Let's see, it includes women, minorities, vets (ok I'm cool with them having a little advantage) LBGTQ...…


everybody but me.....


Sorry, prejudice is prejudice.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Milkman said:


> everybody but me.....


Must be "lactose intolerant"


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> Must be "lactose intolerant"


LOL, not bad.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

cheezyridr said:


> i've known a woman or so here and there in the other trades. most of them were not worth a shit. however, i have known lots who run data cables and signal stuff. most of those seemed to stay busy and do decent work. except for the welders, all the women i"ve known in the trades were paired with a man while on site, and only did the easy stuff. women don't go for the hard or dangerous jobs because they are (most of them) not physically capable of doing them, or because they're not interested in beating themselves up every day to earn a living. in and of itself, i don't have a problem with that. i tried to have the kind of job where i didn't get dirty or have to do physical labor. i thought it was going to be great, but i hated it.i keep hearing judge smails from caddy shack telling danny noonan "it's ok, the world needs ditch diggers too." when danny asks for help with college tuition. my spirit just isn't meant for a cubicle. i'm happier in a ditch. hahahaha


The trade I worked in (telecom) had a number of female journeypeople. Most were pretty good at what they did - for the most part, it wasn't a physically difficult job. There were certainly a few guys that were a lot less competent in the more complex tasks we had to routinely do. The good women would pull cable and climb ladders/go up bucket trucks in the monsoons with the best of 'em. No problems at all with the technology - maybe Star Trek was (will be?) on to something, quite often highlighting women in engineering/technical positions.

I found the best females in the job were the ones who didn't either play the gender card (that blackballed them pretty quickly) or over-compensated. One of the first girls in the trade (early 90s) was working with a crusty old ex-military journeyman. She sensed a bit of tension during routine tasks, so one she spoke up: "I know what's wrong with this. It's all fucked up." That broke the ice just enough that he started considering her just another worker. She went on to be one of the best techs on the system and is now a Trades Trainer. 



> my gripe with it is 2 aspects
> 
> claiming they can do anything a man can do (false)
> claiming wage suppression through a non-existent patriarchy that, even if it did exist, is forbidden by law. as i said, if you could pay a woman less to do the same job, no man would ever get hired to do anything. they like to claim oppression despite being the (specifically western women) the most protected class in all of recorded history. *the result of this has been a legal and social system that works against those who built that society in the first place. *
> ok, stepping off of my soapbox now... hahahahaha


Hang on to your boots. Antifa 2.0 is just barely getting going.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

one place I worked at sent each employee a sheet asking them to note their "heritage line" for the HR dept .

sent mine back with "CANADIAN" written across it and a smaller note that my "native indian status" had nothing to do with my work skills or abilities.

the HR came around again and said I had to answer the question ... grabbed the sheet , 
wrote "born in CANADA, a Canadian mongrel, not of pure lineage ... pick any culture and it's probably in there"
I told her to choose whatever she wanted to put down.


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