# The REAL truth about guitars - trolling - and what you DON'T want to hear



## JohnEsmokes (Sep 9, 2009)

Howdy folks, had a little heated discussion on the Generic Guitar Popularity Contest Thread (which IMHO is about as useless as tits on a bull.. but many would disagree so who am I anyways?). I tend to like to rustle feathers once in while which is far from TROLLING as some people would like to believe, but as always - people get personally insulted somehow by my opinion and then moderators jump in and the discussion ends. 

I've been down this road before you see. I like to say what I feel is one of the major problems with Guitar Forums; nothing but gear talk. Now I understand that gear is a factor and many questions are asked and potentially resolved. Moreover I realize that many people take good time to post thoughtfully and are often genuinely friendly and helpful. Very good indeed. Yet as I stated we live in decadent times and most of these forums have devolved into popularity contests/ congratulate me on My NGD/ what guitar has better tone/ what should I buy/ post pics of your baby.. etc.. etc... etc... 

Look down the forum and try to find one thread that actually talks about playing/ developing/ musicianship/ history/ styles / influences/ techniques/ lessons etc... You'll be hard pressed. Why? Because most guitar forums are disease centers for spreading GAS. Friendly yes. But ultimately defeating because they miss the whole point of music (which is ... of course... music). 

It would seem my most controversial theory is "great guitars can make bad players worse" or "great guitars are best left in the hands of great guitarists". I would think that these are good things to debate and MIGHT actually help spur players in the RIGHT direction (namely - avoid GAS - focus on playing). BUT this is an EXTRAORDINARILY controversial viewpoint to take because of the legions of "what gives you the right to tell me what to do with my hard earned money" posters who then resort to insults and accusations of trolling (lol). 

Well, my response to them is usually "well if you really believe in yourself then why the hell are you so upset - or why would you give a damn about my opinion" (because - quite frankly - I don't give a damn about hearing how awesome your Martin D-28 looks or your Taylor 518ce - not that I would ever come out and say it... oops... maybe I just did 

The Truth is very simple about life: It's not the guitar - it's the player. It's not the instrument - it's the musician. Tommy Emmanuel will take your worst junker and make it sound like a million dollar baby. So why waste your money if it's not going to make a difference. 

Whenever I do a live performance I get two different types of people who approach me afterward. The first being the one who says they liked something about my music. The second saying the liked the sound of my guitar. One of them hasn't figured it out yet. Have you?


----------



## Bela Oxmyx (May 19, 2006)

Thats wild man...


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

This is why forums have gear sections and theory sections.  If you don't like the gear sections, don't read them and don't post in them. People who like to talk about gear can do it to their hearts content.

You are severely missing the point of this type of forum. If people wanted to only talk about theory and technique, they would be posting elsewhere. People enjoy talking about gear and sharing stories. It doesn't mean they see it as a status symbol. It's a hobby just like another other hobby for a lot of people. 

You are upset because someone accuses you of trolling. You aren't doing anything better claiming you know people's reasons for using a forum. You are making the same assumptions about others that you don't want them to make about you. Your viewpoint is not controversial at all. It's just completely missing the point of a community like this.

Start your own forum dedicated to only theory and technique if you don't like the other forums out there.


----------



## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

*While I agree to a point*

I love talking music and how its made, and sometimes I have been know to collaborate with other guitarists on some forums and see what each other are doing.
But you also must realize that a lot of folks maybe don't play professionally and don't want to, they just want to take a guitar and try to play something that they like, and frankly if they chose to do it on a $5000.00 Martin then good on them and believe it or not that is freakin good for you as a musician, it keeps our cost of guitars way down.
Look I was one that had to have that name out there on the headstock it was required at one time for musicians to play the big named guitars and did it make me a better or worse player absolutely not.
And if folks don't like what you have to say what so what, been called a Troll many of times by folks I thought were my friends and then someone mentioned that once you give up the high road you have lost that battle, I never lost a battle because I refuse to give anyone that much power.
And I say keep your difference of opinions, just don't push back harder just because someone doesn't like what you have to say, I know I have better things to do, like actually play guitar then to deal with the little things in life.Such as do I use a pentatonic or a jazzy scale for the next song, now that crap is important, so please you all keep it in persective, allow each other to have difference of opinions, there are no rights nor wrongs.Ship.................its just music so lets play.


----------



## JohnEsmokes (Sep 9, 2009)

torndownunit said:


> This is why forums have gear sections and theory sections. If you don't like the gear sections, don't read them and don't post in them. People who like to talk about gear can do it to their hearts content.
> 
> .


You do realize that this is not the gear section? Do you?
Anyway I feel that it's you who's entirely "missing the point". I'm not debating what this forum should/ should not be... rather I'm lamenting what it isn't. Moreover "theory and technique" were only 2 of several attributes that I listed. The primary one being MUSIC but I guess that's easy to overlook because that's "not the point" of this forum. It seems you got stung hard. I'm not the slightest bit upset. I'm not even remotely agitated... actually I slightly amused... but I digress. 
Anyway the total irony of your post is that your telling me that my post is not what this forum is about.


----------



## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

JohnEsmokes said:


> You do realize that this is not the gear section? Do you?
> Anyway I feel that it's you who's entirely "missing the point". I'm not debating what this forum should/ should not be... rather I'm lamenting what it isn't. Moreover "theory and technique" were only 2 of several attributes that I listed. The primary one being MUSIC but I guess that's easy to overlook because that's "not the point" of this forum. It seems you got stung hard. I'm not the slightest bit upset. I'm not even remotely agitated... actually I slightly amused... but I digress.
> Anyway the total irony of your post is that your telling me that my post is not what this forum is about.


You do realize this is one of the gear sections on the forum?


----------



## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

I can see the OPs point - most forums are gear related, rather than music, musicianship or theory related. However, we _already have_ sections for all of those. I've started, and posted to a fair number of these over the years. These are not my favourite sections though. I prefer to gain better musicianship and theory in other ways.

To quote Sting - Talking about music is like dancing about architecture. It is easier and more fun to discuss gear, problem solve and joke around than it is to talk music theory! I come here for fun, not homework.:food-smiley-004:

Also, I like to know about new gear, I like to learn about vintage gear, I kind of like GAS too. Wanting things makes one work towards attaining them - goal setting is an important life skill.


----------



## harrym (Jan 19, 2010)

You sound like a very angry man. Lighten up, life is too short. Enjoy the forums.


----------



## JohnEsmokes (Sep 9, 2009)

Okay one last post before I'm likely shut out or down. 
This is a thread about whether or not amateurs should buy professional level instruments. 
Is that not worthy of a debate? We can all be grown up and say our opinions. 
Are We NOT MEN?

This is the Acoustic guitar forum. I think it's a valid discussion.


----------



## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

JohnEsmokes said:


> This is a thread about whether or not amateurs should buy professional level instruments.


Maybe if you had posted that question, with a little more information, you might have gotten a reasonable debate? However your initial post came off as someone having an axe to grind.


----------



## JohnEsmokes (Sep 9, 2009)

bagpipe said:


> Maybe if you had posted that question, with a little more information, you might have gotten a reasonable debate? However your initial post came off as someone having an axe to grind.


Sorry, hangover from the other thread. No axe to grind.


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

JohnEsmokes said:


> Okay one last post before I'm likely shut out or down.
> This is a thread about whether or not amateurs should buy professional level instruments.
> Is that not worthy of a debate? We can all be grown up and say our opinions.
> Are We NOT MEN?
> ...


Sure they should otherwise the company's won't have enough business on _poor professionals_... especially in Canada. I have done paid gigs and free gigs ... that make me a professional? I am poor. Would you do an endorsement guitar if it was offered to you? That's how it works and always has. Well except for expensive grand pianos. Hammonds you have not much choice ... 

Also just because some one is amatuer now doesn't mean that they will stay that way.


----------



## harrym (Jan 19, 2010)

What do you consider an amateur and when can that person upgrade to a better instrument.


----------



## JohnEsmokes (Sep 9, 2009)

Hey it's not about when or who so much as it's about advice.
I can't tell you what to do (well I can.. but you're probably not going to listen). I can only voice my opinion on the state of affairs. If you decide to indulge in GAS that's your decision. Will it make you better? Only if you realize that the instrument is merely that (inevitably your inspiration for playing must come from within). Most people buy gear they don't need - heck I've done it myself.


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

JohnEsmokes said:


> Hey it's not about when or who so much as it's about advice.
> I can't tell you what to do (well I can.. but you're probably not going to listen). I can only voice my opinion on the state of affairs. If you decide to indulge in GAS that's your decision. Will it make you better? Only if you realize that the instrument is merely that (inevitably your inspiration for playing must come from within). Most people buy gear they don't need - heck I've done it myself.


Ummmmm So according to your theory I should be able to amazing stuff on my $25 Kent ? I'd be still on my first fiddle tune then.. 40 yrs later


----------



## xuthal (May 15, 2007)

Well,if theres some rich 15 year old buying a custom made martin and doesn't know how to play the thing he's going to sell it for a lower price than he paid,maybe even for a stupid price,depending on his smarts and wealth,then we "professional hobbyists" with too much GAS have no choice but to pick it up,Then they sell it down the road until a very talented player comes along,sees it hanging in a pawn shop beaten and battered,takes it down and buys it.Does a set up and takes it one the road/or not,makes a million/or plays it regularly and hands it down to his son or nephew.
Gas has spawned many great players who's first guitar was bought at a pawn shop or used gear section of a music store.If theres someone willing to pay for it and tires of it theres another around the corner who may keep it until the day they die.I like buying used gear,If it wasn't for used gear I'd be broke.GAS has a purpose.
As to playing what you're skill level deserves there is no answer to that question and this thread is doomed to either be shut down or to go unanswered when someone comes up with a valid point.I'm happy to play my modest guitar collection that others would categorize "beaters".Do i deserve more with my playing abilities?I'll know that if someone say "you deserve a better guitar"
and hands me one worth a few grand.Do i expect that to happen?No,it would be nice but i don't know that many leftys.
Everyone thinks their guitar playing is phenomenal every once in a while.And if they believe that and happen to buy a $9,000 guitar and love it,what's the problem with that?Guitar playing is a pleasure and a joy,not an 'i got a better guitar than you' game.If you had the money and bought a Ferrari or even a mustang,does that make you feel better about yourself for having enough money for nice things?Same with a botique guitar,their nice things and play and sound much better than a $300 yamaha,just like a high end car handles much better than whats probably in you or you're neighbors driveway.


----------



## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

theres plenty of discussions on this board concerning cheap guitars.from the cheap, vintage and virtually unplayable, to the awesome high quality but low cost godin stuff. and theres discussions about expensive stuff too of course. its a guitar forum, so one day youll see "got this cool guitar for $5 at a flea market", then right next to it youll see "i saved up for 5 years and had a luthier build this for me".
im more interested in the flea market find myself, but theres all kinds here.



> This is a thread about whether or not amateurs should buy professional level instruments.
> Is that not worthy of a debate? We can all be grown up and say our opinions.
> Are We NOT MEN?


if they can afford it, sure. but this begs the question- whats professional level?
lots of pros use $500 or cheaper seagulls, yamahas, takamines- whatevers.
and though i dont think any guitar is worth $2000, if a guy can pay for it, and he wants it, then why shouldnt he have a hugely expensive guitar?
i know a guy, makes good money. not a guitar player really, he knows a few chords, couple pieces of heavy metal tunes from the 80's- you know. maybe picks up a guitar once or twice a year- went out and bought an alvarez, brand new, cost him over $1200. better than anything i use. nothing at all wrong with that.


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Don't forget to Fraser that some guitars, if bought correctly will retain their value, so if not specifically an investment it's some cash that didn't go to the BEER store .. of .. the shopping channel. i.e. wasted. I tell some parents this sometimes. If the kid has a good guitar then there is a good chance of getting your money back it doesn't get played.


----------



## puckhead (Sep 8, 2008)

JohnEsmokes said:


> This is a thread about whether or not amateurs should buy professional level instruments.


rather odd way of going about asking that. Your initial post (and the next one) came off as pretty durned condesending.
First and foremost, this is a *community *of professional musicians, amateurs, collectors, people wanting to learn, and people who just love gear.

should amateurs buy top level gear?
of course - if they can afford it, you or I have no right telling anybody what they should and should not buy.
hell, even if they _can't_ afford it, you or I have no right to tell them what they should or shouldn't buy.


----------



## Howi (Feb 3, 2009)

I love guitars, period.

I can walk into a store and just look at them for hours, and walk out with nothing in my hands. But I'll have a big smile on my face. 

*It just makes me happy.* 
*It makes me happy* to hold a new guitar in my hands, go through all the switches and knobs and find all the cool tones. 
*It makes me happy* to sit on my couch with a beer late at night by myself, and just stare at my guitars on the stand, even if it's the $400 MIJ LP I picked up from a pawn shop in Niagara Falls. It's 35 years old with a huge crack on the back which I repaired myself, but I still love looking at her.
*It makes me happy* to take my guitar apart and install new pots switches, solder new wires, install new pick ups, then slap everything back together and hit it.
*It makes me happy* to sit down and spend days on trying to figure out how to level my frets and adjust the truss rod.
*It makes me happy* to spend hours and hours everyday looking and studying different guitars online and browsing through the photos of members' guitars.
*It makes me happy*, every time, when I install a new pack of strings, even if they're not due yet.
*It just makes me happy.*

Do I make good music with my guitars? Not really.
Do I enjoy playing my guitars? Yup!
Am I happy? You bet!

Lilfe's too short to be upset at others.

Howi


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Howi I love wood of all shapes and dimensions .. some pieces just end up as guitars.


----------



## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Howi said:


> I love guitars, period.
> 
> I can walk into a store and just look at them for hours, and walk out with nothing in my hands. But I'll have a big smile on my face.
> 
> ...


Amen.

That's along the lines of what I was thinking.
I play guitar because I enjoy it.
I play what I feel like playing.

I don't have the money to spend on an expensive guitar, and I don't know if I would buy one if I could.

But if I did, so what?

You have to find a guitar that speaks to you, that calls out to you--whether it's cheap, expensive or in between.

Enjoyment of the guitar is the best reason for playing them.


Long ago I gave up making it as a professional musician, but that doesn't mean I give up the guitar.

I don't need more gear, but so what?
I enjoy it.


----------



## Shiny_Beast (Apr 16, 2009)

JohnEsmokes said:


> Howdy folks, ...


So how do you roll? Is there a link to your gear somewhere?


----------



## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

this would come in handy...hee hee hee...


----------



## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

Great topic! These are always fun.

JohnEsmokes......too much. He's at the point that he feels he has it all figured out and is preaching to others to look deep inside and find his ways.

I belong to another great guitar forum that would result in replies with this image.


----------



## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

JohnEsmokes said:


> Are We NOT MEN?


No, We are Devo! Appearently from this thread anyway............


----------



## jcayer (Mar 25, 2007)

From reading the OP,

I can't wait to see your contributionS to the 'Theory and Lessons' section ...

*Live and let live* AFAIK ...


----------



## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

*So the real truth comes from this*

See now that is a completely different subject from your original post, should amateurs buy proffesional instruments.
Well this is only my opinion and not put on anybody else to share the same opinion, very simply put YES and the reason why is just because they can.
I don't care what anybody has in their lot of guitars, all I care about is that they are being played and enjoyed, who am I to tell them not to buy these instruments, I have seen some very awful players who started with some very crappy guitars blossom once they had a great guitar in their hand, and why its because they were interested in music and the sounds guitars make, where others just want to be able to strum out a few chords and thats what makes them happy.
Niether one of us or any of us for that matter should or could tell anyone in this world of ours what NOT to BUY I could care less at what level they play at and frankly as a musician I don't have the time to worry about such things ( even though I am retired from it ) I am still busy making music and trying occasionally to teach it.
And yes we can make most lower level guitars sing out, but we also understand what it takes to make them play well and this can only happen because we dedicated ourself to making it happen.
So I say let them buy which helps us out in the long run by keeping the prices down on those so called pro instruments, and frankly I am not sure what a pro instrument is, other then a guitar that you have been able to coax the best sound out of it.Ship


----------



## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

No actually we are not all men? and if an amatuer can afford a high end instrument and chooses to do so? why the heck not? I see plenty of old fools and middle age crazies in High end cars....


----------



## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

I don't really get the point of the OP's start on this thread....but I joined this forum to learn stuff - which - thanks to the wealth of knowledge and experience of the members in here - has been very fruitful - learned about music, gear, how to use it best to ultimately create...music. 

but I also agree with another poster(sorry don't remember who it was) who noted - this is a hobby - and like any other member of a group of people who share the same interests - sharing successes, failures and news of new equipment or great experiences is a good thing - I like it


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

JohnEsmokes said:


> You do realize that this is not the gear section? Do you?
> Anyway I feel that it's you who's entirely "missing the point". I'm not debating what this forum should/ should not be... rather I'm lamenting what it isn't. Moreover "theory and technique" were only 2 of several attributes that I listed. The primary one being MUSIC but I guess that's easy to overlook because that's "not the point" of this forum. It seems you got stung hard. I'm not the slightest bit upset. I'm not even remotely agitated... actually I slightly amused... but I digress.
> Anyway the total irony of your post is that your telling me that my post is not what this forum is about.


No, it shows that you don't know how to make a point. You go on to say later in the thread what your actual point was with the OP. But as several people pointed out, the OP doesn't explain that properly. Until you explained it, other people didn't know what you were talking about either. So don't pick me out of the crowd. Your original post still has little in common with your follow up (about amateurs and professionals), so people are still confused.

As for the rest of the discussion, several posters said it best already. Who decides who is professional? Or what is 'professional'? I gigged making money for years, which made me technically a professional player. But I definitely don't consider myself a fantastic player. So what type of gear do you think I should be allowed to own?

I am not agitated or angry. The point is no one understands your point. Expand on what you are saying, or explain it better, and people will gladly discuss it with you.


----------



## JohnEsmokes (Sep 9, 2009)

lbrown1 said:


> I don't really get the point of the OP's start on this thread....but I joined this forum to learn stuff - which - thanks to the wealth of knowledge and experience of the members in here - has been very fruitful - learned about music, gear, how to use it best to ultimately create...music.
> 
> but I also agree with another poster(sorry don't remember who it was) who noted - this is a hobby - and like any other member of a group of people who share the same interests - sharing successes, failures and news of new equipment or great experiences is a good thing - I like it


I started the thread out of frustration of another thread. All guitar forums IMHO are disease centers for GAS. As I mentioned before you don't need the world's best skis or golf clubs unless your a Bode Miller or Tiger Woods. It wont make a difference. I tell all my students never to succumb to GAS because it defeats the purpose of playing in the first place: music. You're headstock will never make you a better player and lousy players look positively silly with world class instruments. Yes we live in capitalism and this kind of thing happens in all hobbies. To me, though, nothing looks sillier than a balding middle-aged man in a super sports car. It is the HEIGHT of all selfishness that we buy things that are not only complete unnecessary but that we obsess over them like they are something to be idolized. Science has clearly proven that material objects cannot give you happiness (other than the short-term excitement that comes with their arrival). A super awesome guitar will never make anyone a better player period. 
Anyway, this is just discussion and it's just my humble opinion. You're gonna do whatever your little heart (and wallet) tells you regardless of my rantings. Hopefully a few of the younglings will take note and actually think long and hard about what it is they love: the instrument... or the music.
Can't say I didn't give this board a kick in the but though!


----------



## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Uh, no I don't think you did, I think you made yourself look like someone who is very envious of other people. We all come here for various reasons, But I have to say that it is a great place for learning and, for the most part, meeting other like minded folks. I purchased ALL my guitars prior to EVER coming here. Yes I can admire lovely tonewoods and tube amps and all things guitar, but it certainly never contributed to GAS at all. You come here making all kinds of broad not very well thought out statements about people you know NOTHING about.


----------



## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

JohnEsmokes said:


> Howdy folks, had a little heated discussion on the Generic Guitar Popularity Contest Thread (which IMHO is about as useless as tits on a bull.. but many would disagree so who am I anyways?). I tend to like to rustle feathers once in while which is far from TROLLING as some people would like to believe, but as always - people get personally insulted somehow by my opinion and then moderators jump in and the discussion ends.
> 
> I've been down this road before you see. I like to say what I feel is one of the major problems with Guitar Forums; nothing but gear talk. Now I understand that gear is a factor and many questions are asked and potentially resolved. Moreover I realize that many people take good time to post thoughtfully and are often genuinely friendly and helpful. Very good indeed. Yet as I stated we live in decadent times and most of these forums have devolved into popularity contests/ congratulate me on My NGD/ what guitar has better tone/ what should I buy/ post pics of your baby.. etc.. etc... etc...
> 
> ...


Hang on, I think I know what you are getting at. Are you saying that people think buying an expensive top of the line instrument makes them a better musician? If yes, then I agree with you. In that respect an expensive instrument won't help. It's not enough to buy the book, you have to read it as well and apply what you've read. But I don't agree with buying low level instruments because you have not progressed far enough as a musician. For some having the instrument they have always dreamed of is the impetus to further their skills. A well made instrument is also easier to learn on. I've been playing more since getting my R8 and I'm certainly not<insert name of favourite guitarist here>.

I'm sure you'll have noticed the part of the quote that I put in bold. I think they both have it figured out. I don't think it's possible to separate the tone of the instrument from the music. It's integral. You may be able to play Beethoven's Fifth with fingernails on a blackboard but who would listen to it?


----------



## JohnEsmokes (Sep 9, 2009)

Ohhh I think I know very well what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that these forums can't be useful - I've used several of them myself positively - I'm saying that they largely devolve into "What High End Guitar is Best" threads that are of little use. I tell people all the time never to look at the headstock when trying instruments... you would be surprised what you discover in doing so.


----------



## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

JohnEsmokes said:


> Ohhh I* think* I know very well what I'm talking about.


That's it right there...you THINK you know. It is not one or the other group that has figured it out. There is merit to both. I've heard people who were terrible but had a great guitar sound and I've heard people who played really well and I wanted to tell them to go to a guitar store and get an instrument that better suited their skill level. You sound like a person with a lot of anger built up from not getting the attention that you THINK that you deserve.


----------



## JohnEsmokes (Sep 9, 2009)

Quote "I'm sure you'll have noticed the part of the quote that I put in bold. I think they both have it figured out. I don't think it's possible to separate the tone of the instrument from the music. It's integral. You may be able to play Beethoven's Fifth with fingernails on a blackboard but who would listen to it?[/QUOTE]

No, unfortunately they haven't. A guitar is an INSTRUMENT, nothing more. 
I like to use one of my favorite all time quotes when debating this issue: Reverend Gary Davis was once asked in an interview "that guitar (gibson j200) looks like it sounds amazing", to which the great Reverend replied "I doesn't sound like a GODDAMN THING!!... unless you can play it". 
The first person is impressed by MY MUSIC... the second is impressed by MY GUITAR. - case closed
Another thing you stated was "low level instruments" something I've never made any mention of. I would never reccomend buying a low level instrument. I think you can find an excellent guitar for $300.00 that you won't be afraid to take to the campfire too. Heck strap it on your back on you can take it anywhere and never really worry. Is it as great as a Martin D28 or a Taylor 518ce? Probably not. But believe me only the number 2s will ever notice the difference because they are the only ones who have GAS.
Free your mind, free your music. **** the headstock!


----------



## Guest (Jan 20, 2010)

JohnEsmokes said:


> All guitar forums IMHO are disease centers for GAS.


If this is a centre for disease: why are you hanging out here?

If you'd spent some time looking around you'd notice a reasonably active set of discussions on practice regimens, theory, listening exercises -- all the stuff you say is missing, but in fact is not. There's also a great deal of talk here on equipment that is affordable. I'd say a lot of words are spent here helping people find Great Deals.

If you'd spent some time exploring this community before spouting off, you might have figured that out.



> Hopefully a few of the younglings will take note and actually think long and hard about what it is they love: the instrument... or the music.


Ahhh...oh...I see now: you're one of _those_ old guys. The ones that think they know it all, have seen it all, got it all figured out. Went through their hedonistic youth and came out the other side enlightened and all free of material desires (probably because you went nuts last year a stocked the house full of plasmas and blu-ray players and pool tables and just ran out of things to buy). One of those guys. So now you think your raison d'etre is to look down your nose at anyone else living through their youth, just as you did, and tell them they've got it all wrong. Don't _do_ like you did, _be_ like you now instead. For you are the enlightened one.

I'll take an afternoon hanging out with someone who's got the open-minded and adventurous spirit of youth in them over this closed, elitist and quite frankly naive approach to life you seem to have sidled in to. Work hard, spend your hard earned dollars what ever way you like. Explore the world and all it has to offer.



> Can't say I didn't give this board a kick in the but though!


You give yourself far, far, far too much credit. We just haven't seen imprudence the likes of yours around here in a while. You're a bit of a oddity right now so egging you on is highly amusing. A new, highly reactive, personality to poke.


----------



## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

JohnEsmokes said:


> No, unfortunately they haven't. A guitar is an INSTRUMENT, nothing more.
> I like to use one of my favorite all time quotes when debating this issue: Reverend Gary Davis was once asked in an interview "that guitar (gibson j200) looks like it sounds amazing", to which the great Reverend replied "I doesn't sound like a GODDAMN THING!!... unless you can play it".


Yeah, that is amusing but not constructive in any manner whatsoever. If someone who can't play goes over and plucks a string then it will still sound good if it is good. There will be characteristics of the note/tone/sound.



JohnEsmokes said:


> The first person is impressed by MY MUSIC... the second is impressed by MY GUITAR. - case closed


Case reopened - Both of them will hate your attitude and thereby probably not be attracted to your music or your guitar at that point.



JohnEsmokes said:


> Free your mind, free your music. **** the headstock!


Here's the big issue: you think that you are being revolutionary? Breaking down some wall or barrier with this kind of thinking/talk? Everyone on guitar forums has heard/read that stuff a hundred times before - there's something that guitar forums can be useful for - hearing the same tired worn-out crap. The line that you are towing is more worn-out than the 'which guitar is best' line because someone saying that **** the headstock stuff normally shows up every time someone asks 'which is best?'. Then they show up with their own threads too...just like you did. New? No. Revolutionary? Certainly not.


----------



## Guest (Jan 20, 2010)

JohnEsmokes said:


> Ohhh I think I know very well what I'm talking about.


In that regard then: you are alone. Because to everyone else you're rambling, with very little coherence to your thoughts.


----------



## JohnEsmokes (Sep 9, 2009)

iaresee said:


> In that regard then: you are alone. Because to everyone else you're rambling, with very little coherence to your thoughts.


I'm sorry God, I didn't know that you were reading. I'll make sure not to ramble anymore because "everyone" is getting annoyed.

dreams stay with you
like a lovers voice 
on a mountain side...


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

JohnEsmokes said:


> I'm sorry God, I didn't know that you were reading. I'll make sure not to ramble anymore because "everyone" is getting annoyed.
> 
> dreams stay with you
> like a lovers voice
> on a mountain side...


I have to say that I'm with the crowd that doesn't really get the message your trying to convey. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems like you're just presenting an argument for the sake of arguing.


----------



## JohnEsmokes (Sep 9, 2009)

Here's a good little story. 
Before I became a "Guitar Hero" I went to the local guitar shop to purchase a new guitar. I had $1500.00 to blow and I told the salesmen to give me something good within that price range - I also told him that I was a novice and didn't really know much about guitars but I was eager, ready and willing to take the plunge. He handed me a $300.00 Seagull guitar that, an hour later I walked out with. He could have easily made a couple hundred extra bucks for himself (off commission) but he realized that my skill level didn't warrant or justify spending and extra thousand. That Seagull is still one of my most played guitars and is absolutely a gem. That salesman was a class-act because he went beyond the realm of rampant capitalism and gave me something that made me much better and much richer .


----------



## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

JohnEsmokes said:


> I'm sorry God, I didn't know that you were reading. I'll make sure not to ramble anymore because "everyone" is getting annoyed.
> 
> dreams stay with you
> like a lovers voice
> on a mountain side...


One thing that you have right...apologize to God because he's probably ashamed of you right now.

...and don't think quoting Big Country will get you anywhere.


----------



## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

*Well I don't see it*

You say that the talk gets back to high-end guitars , well except for a few who can make music on them, mostly folks around here seem to average out at $500.00 for most acoustics, those of us who have been fortunate and managed to make some money out of music might have a really good one or two ( okay in my case more ) guitars.
But it just appears to me now that you are arguing just to argue any point that you can make John and that doesn't wash here or on any other forum, you want to talk about making music then start a new thread because this one is dead as far as I am concerned I have tried to keep an open mind on your statements but they are all over the place not very conciese if you ask me and as for your thought of arguments being a good thing, well they are as long as the are constructive and this thread no longer is, so now comes the lock down.Ship


----------

