# Multi-effects with expression pedals



## Sheratone (Apr 21, 2020)

Hello again everyone!

I am officially getting back in the electric guitar game, and will hopefully have something on its way to me soon to fill the "guitar" part of that equation.

I am looking into multi-effects units that have an expression pedal (to control wah primarily). I have always felt that a "real" wah pedal into a modelling unit doesn't really work, because of the importance of the interplay between the wah and the front-end of the amp. I assume modelling units capture this interaction.

I am also keen to get something that can handle looping.

As I understand it, within the cheaper price range my obvious option would be:

Zoom G3Xn/Zoom G5n
DigiTech RP360XP (ironically my very first multi-fx was an RP-100)
Boss GT-1

I was wondering if anyone had any experience with these? I am specifically interested in how sturdy they are and how the expression pedal feels. One thing that draws me to the G5n is the possibility of using a separate expression pedal if I really hate the inbuilt one.

I also tried out today for the first time the Amplitude software. I have an audio interface already so I tried plugging in my acoustic guitar and putting it through some amps. There was some lag which I tackled by reducing the buffer size. The software seems pretty cool but I was put off a bit by the pricing model. Also they lack a ring modulator which is one of my favourite effects.

Still, I am now also considering the iRig Stomp I/O as it seems really well constructed for the price. I have a previous iPhone that I think I could use as to run the "audio engine", though it feels a bit weird to be relying on another piece of kit for that. I kind of like how normal multi-effects are quite self-contained. This also draws me to the Zoom in particular because I like having lots of physical controls.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

I spent the last several days choosing a multi-effects unit.

I wanted a Zoom G5 (the older one), but none were available at L&M either new or used. I considered the G5n, but decided against it. If you want one, there is a used one in the Fredericton store for $249.

The Boss units get really good reviews (as does so much of their stuff). The Boss ME-80 is a great unit, and there is a used one available in St. Catherines for $275.

Ultimately, I went with a Boss GT-100 (got one for $399) but it did take me a while to decide between it and the ME-80. The thing that tipped the balance for me was the ability to decide the order of the effects with the GT-100, whereas the order was fixed in the ME-80. But I can be a bit of a technophobe so was really leaning towards the ME-80. And if it turns out that I don't like the GT-100 for any reason, I will return it and get the ME-80.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

I really like the GT-1. Built in expression / wah pedal is a little small, but the unit feels pretty solid. It can be used with an external expression pedal as well - I use an Ernie Ball Jr with mine.


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## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

I have a GT-1 as well, and would agree the physical size of the pedal is a bit small, as is the sweep range. The main use my GT-1 gets these days is as a recording interface. It’s been quite useful for both guitar and bass. Reaper recognizes it without any issues.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

It doesn't have a built-in pedal, but a Line 6 M9/M13 with their external expression pedal works really well, is easy to use, and has pretty good effects. I'm not sure about the whole wah/drive interaction though, as I didn't actually like the drives in the units. But they both have an effects loop to use your own drive pedal, which I think is a big plus.

There are a number of different wah sounds to choose from, and you can set the range of your expression pedal if you find you don't like the wah sound at the extremes as much. I wouldn't say I'm a "wah connoisseur" but I found a sound I liked. 

Owning these pedals made me a big fan of using expression, and setting it up is so easy. I've moved on to other pedals since owning both the M13 and then the M9, but still haven't used expression as much as with these because they were so easy to use compared to everything else.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

Most effects units will have an expression pedal input. That would broaden your choices.

Are you in Quebec City, Montreal, or somewhere else?

A used GT-100 is a very good idea.


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## Sheratone (Apr 21, 2020)

troyhead said:


> It doesn't have a built-in pedal, but a Line 6 M9/M13 with their external expression pedal works really well, is easy to use, and has pretty good effects. I'm not sure about the whole wah/drive interaction though, as I didn't actually like the drives in the units. But they both have an effects loop to use your own drive pedal, which I think is a big plus.
> 
> There are a number of different wah sounds to choose from, and you can set the range of your expression pedal if you find you don't like the wah sound at the extremes as much. I wouldn't say I'm a "wah connoisseur" but I found a sound I liked.
> 
> Owning these pedals made me a big fan of using expression, and setting it up is so easy. I've moved on to other pedals since owning both the M13 and then the M9, but still haven't used expression as much as with these because they were so easy to use compared to everything else.


The M9 looks really cool. Does it do amp modelling though? Or does it have to be plugged into an amp?


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## Sheratone (Apr 21, 2020)

^ double post ^


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## Sheratone (Apr 21, 2020)

Hammerhands said:


> Most effects units will have an expression pedal input. That would broaden your choices.
> 
> Are you in Quebec City, Montreal, or somewhere else?
> 
> A used GT-100 is a very good idea.


Montreal-ish.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Sheratone said:


> The M9 looks really cool. Does it do amp modelling though? Or does it have to be plugged into an amp?


No amp modeling on the M9/M13, just effects. But the effects are surprisingly good, considering how many you get for how much money.

The Helix line of pedals have amp modeling built in, I think.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

High/Deaf said:


> No amp modeling on the M9/M13, just effects. But the effects are surprisingly good, considering how many you get for how much money.
> 
> The Helix line of pedals have amp modeling built in, I think.


What he said. The fact that it doesn't have modelling actually makes it way simpler, but if you aren't plugging into an amp it wouldn't work so well. (no headphone output either) But if you are using an amp, it's great.

For the similar effects with amp modelling, you could go with one of the Pod HD Floor models, which you can usually find used for a decent price. Or if budget isn't a big deal, the HX Stomp (with external expression) or a Helix LT would be a big step up.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Sheratone said:


> The M9 looks really cool. Does it do amp modelling though? Or does it have to be plugged into an amp?


The entire "M" line (5, 9, 13) compile pretty much everything found in the modeller floor-pedal series (Delay modeller, Filter modeller, Modulation modeller, Distortion modeller) into a single unit, along with a bunch of things from the Verbzilla pedal, a tuner, a modest looper, noise control, and plenty of storable presets. I have an M5. One of the things I like about it is that it supports "reprocessing", whereby you can plug into one channel and feed its output to the other channel to be processed all over again for interesting and unusual sounds. The M5 only provides one effect at a time, which makes that sort of thing feasible. I have no idea what would happen if you tried it with a series of 3 effects.

The expression-pedal control is nice and flexible, you can adjust what changes are produced by movement of toe down and heel down, for up to 5 parameters. So, for instance, the expression pedal might increase gain for an overdrive or distortion program, as you go toe-down, but at the same time pull back on output level to compensate for what higher gain does, and also adjust the tone, such that heel-down gets you a smooth medium-gain tone, and toe-down gradually gets you a slightly harder tone with a bit of volume increase. Heel-down might get you a slow phaser with a wide sweep and more feedback and gradually bringing your toe down ramps up the speed, while it cuts back on sweep width and feedback. And so on. I imagine many other multi-FX must allow something similar, but it's a real convenience that you should keep your eyes peeled for. Note that the direction of changecan go either way, such that everything I described as produced by toe-down above can also be produced by heel-down.

The expression-pedal standard for the Line 6 stuff is a variable 0-10k resistance to ground. When I learned this, I whipped up a photocell attachment that I plugged into the expression-pedal jack, and adhered to the top of my guitar with double-sided tape, between the bridge and volume pot. By covering and uncovering the photocell with my pinky I could use the photocell like an expression pedal, but with a very different feel. It's really something to work their Whammy pedal program with your pinky finger while picking.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

This article might have some interesting suggestions as well.
The 10 best multi-effects pedals 2020: the best all-in-one guitar FX modellers | MusicRadar

I forgot about the Boss MS-3, which could be a good choice if you ever plan to expand your pedalboard and might like a loop switcher. I also wonder if that Mooer unit is any good (some retailers seem to have it quite discounted right now).


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Sheratone said:


> Hello again everyone!
> 
> I am officially getting back in the electric guitar game, and will hopefully have something on its way to me soon to fill the "guitar" part of that equation.
> 
> ...


You have tons of options. I’ve owned the GT-001, GT-100, AmpliTube, BIAS FX and now the GT-1000. For software modelling, the new Mooer GE Labs has the best sound. After that, I’d recommend BIAS FX for the community patch exchange website. The best interface is the XSonic XTone (with expression pedal input). For floor modellers, I’m really happy with the GT-1000. I’ve never experienced any lag using my iPad Pro or my iPhone 8 Plus.


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## Sheratone (Apr 21, 2020)

High/Deaf said:


> No amp modeling on the M9/M13, just effects. But the effects are surprisingly good, considering how many you get for how much money.
> 
> The Helix line of pedals have amp modeling built in, I think.


The Helix is too rich for my blood, maybe later! I am looking in the sub-$500 range. I think I will end up getting discrete "real" effects pedals once I have more space and a tube amp.



mhammer said:


> The entire "M" line (5, 9, 13) compile pretty much everything found in the modeller floor-pedal series (Delay modeller, Filter modeller, Modulation modeller, Distortion modeller) into a single unit, along with a bunch of things from the Verbzilla pedal, a tuner, a modest looper, noise control, and plenty of storable presets. I have an M5. One of the things I like about it is that it supports "reprocessing", whereby you can plug into one channel and feed its output to the other channel to be processed all over again for interesting and unusual sounds. The M5 only provides one effect at a time, which makes that sort of thing feasible. I have no idea what would happen if you tried it with a series of 3 effects.
> 
> The expression-pedal control is nice and flexible, you can adjust what changes are produced by movement of toe down and heel down, for up to 5 parameters. So, for instance, the expression pedal might increase gain for an overdrive or distortion program, as you go toe-down, but at the same time pull back on output level to compensate for what higher gain does, and also adjust the tone, such that heel-down gets you a smooth medium-gain tone, and toe-down gradually gets you a slightly harder tone with a bit of volume increase. Heel-down might get you a slow phaser with a wide sweep and more feedback and gradually bringing your toe down ramps up the speed, while it cuts back on sweep width and feedback. And so on. I imagine many other multi-FX must allow something similar, but it's a real convenience that you should keep your eyes peeled for. Note that the direction of changecan go either way, such that everything I described as produced by toe-down above can also be produced by heel-down.
> 
> The expression-pedal standard for the Line 6 stuff is a variable 0-10k resistance to ground. When I learned this, I whipped up a photocell attachment that I plugged into the expression-pedal jack, and adhered to the top of my guitar with double-sided tape, between the bridge and volume pot. By covering and uncovering the photocell with my pinky I could use the photocell like an expression pedal, but with a very different feel. It's really something to work their Whammy pedal program with your pinky finger while picking.


That sounds really cool. I wonder whether the output from a stompbox modeller will sound good going into a modelling amp? I am planning to get the Yamaha THR10II.



troyhead said:


> This article might have some interesting suggestions as well.
> The 10 best multi-effects pedals 2020: the best all-in-one guitar FX modellers | MusicRadar
> 
> I forgot about the Boss MS-3, which could be a good choice if you ever plan to expand your pedalboard and might like a loop switcher. I also wonder if that Mooer unit is any good (some retailers seem to have it quite discounted right now).





1SweetRide said:


> You have tons of options. I’ve owned the GT-001, GT-100, AmpliTube, BIAS FX and now the GT-1000. For software modelling, the new Mooer GE Labs has the best sound. After that, I’d recommend BIAS FX for the community patch exchange website. The best interface is the XSonic XTone (with expression pedal input). For floor modellers, I’m really happy with the GT-1000. I’ve never experienced any lag using my iPad Pro or my iPhone 8 Plus.


I'm not considering Mooer because I don't like their business practices (e.g. the recent lawsuit with EHX).


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## CathodeRay (Jan 12, 2018)

Sheratone said:


> The Helix is too rich for my blood, maybe later! I am looking in the sub-$500 range. I think I will end up getting discrete "real" effects pedals once I have more space and a tube amp.


If you're going to replace it soon, I'd go for something that has an super intuitive interface so you're not spending frustrating amounts time learning the ins and outs vs playing and checking out what (modeled) pedals you may want to consider for 'real'. 

The Zoom G1XFOUR might be a contender. 

Sent from my A3_Pro using Tapatalk


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I didn't use much expression until I landed on the H9. It is an awesome multi-fx unit in a small enclosure with expression options being incredibly versatile and easy to set. You can buy a standalone exp pedal for 30 bucks. That being said I would like to try the Line 6 POD Go. Seem like a smaller Helix and a bit cheaper.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Sheratone said:


> The Helix is too rich for my blood, maybe later! I am looking in the sub-$500 range. I think I will end up getting discrete "real" effects pedals once I have more space and a tube amp.
> 
> That sounds really cool. I wonder whether the output from a stompbox modeller will sound good going into a modelling amp? I am planning to get the Yamaha THR10II.
> 
> I'm not considering Mooer because I don't like their business practices (e.g. the recent lawsuit with EHX).


Then I'd highly recommend BIAS FX with the XTone controller. Before you buy the Yamaha, you should try the Vox Adio Air GT. It blew the Yamaha away when I tested them side by side.


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## Sheratone (Apr 21, 2020)

CathodeRay said:


> If you're going to replace it soon, I'd go for something that has an super intuitive interface so you're not spending frustrating amounts time learning the ins and outs vs playing and checking out what (modeled) pedals you may want to consider for 'real'.
> 
> The Zoom G1XFOUR might be a contender.
> 
> Sent from my A3_Pro using Tapatalk


Wow that looks awesome for the price. At that point I could justify getting a dedicated external looper that I could use with a pedalboard in the future.



vadsy said:


> I didn't use much expression until I landed on the H9. It is an awesome multi-fx unit in a small enclosure with expression options being incredibly versatile and easy to set. You can buy a standalone exp pedal for 30 bucks. That being said I would like to try the Line 6 POD Go. Seem like a smaller Helix and a bit cheaper.


POD Go looks good (though at the upper end of my price range). I used to have a POD XT-Live that I enjoyed. It seems similar to that.



1SweetRide said:


> Then I'd highly recommend BIAS FX with the XTone controller. Before you buy the Yamaha, you should try the Vox Adio Air GT. It blew the Yamaha away when I tested them side by side.


To be honest I am mostly committed to the Yamaha because it looks acceptable to leave on my living room bookcase. I am hoping that if I were to hate the amp sounds I could bypass them by setting the amp to flat/keyboard and supplement with a modelling floor effects unit.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Sheratone said:


> POD Go looks good (though at the upper end of my price range). I used to have a POD XT-Live that I enjoyed. It seems similar to that.


I think the pod xt-live is like a Commodore 64 when you compare to the Helix or GO. I'd love to hear your reviews when you have a chance to try out any of these units listed here. good luck on the search.


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## Sheratone (Apr 21, 2020)

vadsy said:


> I think the pod xt-live is like a Commodore 64 when you compare to the Helix or GO. I'd love to hear your reviews when you have a chance to try out any of these units listed here. good luck on the search.


That makes me feel old!

I have a new contender as well now. I had not considered the option of getting the Zoom G3n (no expression pedal) and then buying an external expression pedal to control it (I was turned off the G3Xn because the expression pedal looked flimsy).


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Sheratone said:


> That makes me feel old!
> 
> I have a new contender as well now. I had not considered the option of getting the Zoom G3n (no expression pedal) and then buying an external expression pedal to control it (I was turned off the G3Xn because the expression pedal looked flimsy).


its not meant to make you feel old, its just how quick some of these devices move. I've had a couple of the L6 boards/pods over the years and all of them left me underwhelmed. I developed a mindset of tubes or nothing, and that has been the case since, but lately things are starting to sound decent and perhaps dare I say it,. acceptable 

saturday I had a chance to go down to a larger venue and we tried out an Iridium against an isolated Vox AC15 with our guitar and pedalboards feeding into a switcher. with the touch of a button you could switch the FOH speakers between the two amp units. I was left impressed with the Iridium. things have come a long way


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## Sheratone (Apr 21, 2020)

vadsy said:


> its not meant to make you feel old, its just how quick some of these devices move. I've had a couple of the L6 boards/pods over the years and all of them left me underwhelmed. I developed a mindset of tubes or nothing, and that has been the case since, but lately things are starting to sound decent and perhaps dare I say it,. acceptable
> 
> saturday I had a chance to go down to a larger venue and we tried out an Iridium against an isolated Vox AC15 with our guitar and pedalboards feeding into a switcher. with the touch of a button you could switch the FOH speakers between the two amp units. I was left impressed with the Iridium. things have come a long way


I mean, I haven't played them, but it does seem like the POD Go seems pretty similar to what my XT Live was doing 10 years ago. I am curious as to how much the sound could have changed.

For me the main thing in the tubes vs. modelling debate is that tubes are (necessarily) louder. Louder is better. If you never turn your modelling setup up to the volume at which you would get some organic tube breakup then you aren't comparing apples with apples. Unfortunately, most people don't get to be loud at home. I had a beautiful Blackstar amp that only got properly opened up a few times in the time I had it. When I had it cranked it sounded beautiful.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

@Sheratone 
Valeton's GP-100 (demo) - new effects processor coming soon


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