# How do you see work?



## Rickenbacker198 (Jan 10, 2017)

I have worked in a family business (farm) my whole life , just me and my brother mostly the last few years. 
I really enjoy the challenge. 
It can be demanding , long hours at times, average about 48 hrs a week. 
Equipment can be frustrating and require problem solving/ MacGyvering etc.
But it’s the kind of job where no two days are the same and you always have to think ahead. 

We’ve interviewed a few guys and most of them don’t seem to want to well, work, no more than the minimum hours , certainly not Saturday. 
Am I just from another place and time or does everyone feel this way now?

Do you look at work like a task that you are forced to do in order to make ends meet?
or do you see it as more??


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

This ends well, calling it now.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

I for one was the typical Protestant, work hard, live some then die and be bloody happy about it.

Lately I have figured out there is a much better plan. 

Work enough, settle some more, die happy. Not be happy to die 

I like to put myself into the things I am doing in the moment. I even enjoy what I do vocationally and most the time when I am doing it, I am fully in it. I still do not want to give more of myself to it than is absolutely necessary either financially or to satisfy obligations I have made and am morally obliged to keep, see above protestant work ethic.

There has been too much of a culture of pride in working, working too hard, too much, too often... whatever it is. If that is what makes you happy, run hard with it and enjoy every minute. I would never fault someone their life choices, they are theirs to make and in the past I made the same choices. Lately however, I said No More.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I believe everything I hear and read about farming being an entirely different way of life. Some folks understand that, and some folks think it's like any other hourly physical labour kind of work. Chucking fenders and transmissions at a scrap yard, or tilling a field; it's all just grunt-work, right?

I have a longstanding scholarly interest in how we think about work. Personally, I think many of the attitudes adopted (and accepting there is considerable variation across the populace and generations) are more strongly connected to our earliest employment than we realize. What an employer confronts in their staff is not any sort of recent view of the world. It was established well before you hired them. If you're from a farming family, then your earliest work was likely on the family farm, and it was done in order to keep the family's business afloat and thrive. One is not making profits for some CEO or shareholders; you're helping your *family*. Moreover, farming has an enormous amount of delayed gratification built into it. You don't harvest from the seeds you planted yesterday, and you don't send off to the slaughterhouse what was born 2 days ago. There's a lot of waiting involved, a lot of risk, and a lot of faith. Contrast that with what a person learns about work and commitment from asking "Do you want fries with that?" while an "assistant manager", barely 2 years older than them, hovers over them, never mentors in any way (and how could you when you only have 2 more years of work experience?), and staff turnover is the name of the game.

When I taught psychology of adolescent development some 20 years back, the topic of teen employment came up in the text and course, including both the recent history of adolescent employment, the forms it takes, and the psychological/behavioural consequences documented. Some research at the time had noted that teens who had worked 15 or more hrs a week, at the same time as going to school (or pretending to do so) were more likely (and I emphasize "likely", and not "would") to voice more negative attitudes towards employers and adopted fast-and-loose work ethics (e.g., call in sick when they didn't feel like working). One of my students, himself no kid, summarized his early work experience succinctly: "They didn't give a shit about me, so why should I care about them?".

There certainly ARE early work experiences that can foster better work attitudes, and greater commitment. But in the absence of paper routes, service-station attendants, paid internships, and other entry-level jobs that encourage promptness, commitment and a belief that one is being "groomed" for something, a lot of the earliest work teens get establishes the very last sorts of attitudes an employer hopes for in their hires.

It's not a generational thing, per se, because clearly plenty of youth get work that motivates them, establishes great work habits, and turns them into the sort of hire that one can place faith in and that moves up the ladder for all the right reasons. At the same time, there is a lot of early employment that sows the seeds for the sort of thing you're encountering, and baby that field is covering more acreage by the year. If there is a generational shift, it's because of a change in the sort of work young people get as their earliest job, and the attitudes those employers and that work tends to encourage and entrench.

It'd be great if you could do a blood test for "farming-readiness" because farming IS in the blood.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

WORK was a 4 letter word ... 
I put in x # of hours for x $$$$ money ... 
the companies looked at it as paid slavery ... 
I deserved a life beyond the "shop" , they got what they paid for but always demanded more time from me.

if I sign up for long hard hours , I expect to be paid accordingly... and the ability to say "enough"...
they didn't.

I've put in many 60-80 hr weeks and seldom got a thank you ( I'm sure you've done the same )

I finally decided ... if I was going to do all that hard work , I was going to get all that hard earned money.
they could bid on my services and pay top dollar for it , and I got to choose my hours of work.

never look back or regretted the move.

now most folks today want to sit at a desk, push papers and do as little as necessary ( and expect full benefits and pension )

we both know that's not what farming is about ... 
try to look at hiring 2-3 part time employees . ( ie: young strong school bus drivers )
then space the time out between them .... with a spare floater to fill in those odd times.
if one doesn't work out , it's easier to replace with another.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

oldjoat said:


> now most folks today want to sit at a desk, push papers and do as little as necessary


I would have to disagree with this sentiment, I see a lot of people, young people especially with a lot of ambition and drive. There is just a little different focus than what the blue collar work force is accustomed to. The work place is constantly adapting. I mean hell, it was only 100 years ago or so we fought and died (humanity, not me) to establish the 8 hour work day, the 5 day work week... we are slowly but surely moving away from a model of indentured servitude into an appreciative, almost resource based model where you are more than the time you can put on the floor. Now don't get me wrong, that is a little on the "head in the clouds" side, I will admit, but there is a change and it is happening rather quickly. More and more Western nations are moving to 4 day work weeks, striving for an ever greater work/life balance. We are finally at a point where these things are tangible because we are renumerated for our employ at a greater rate than our need.

Obviously in regards to farming, well... that is an industry you get out of what you put in, there is no getting around that. I as a self employed trades guy know this all too well. No one is there to look out for me, but if I work my little tooshie off the reward is at least my own.

I also know a lot of lazy ass people who just won't cut it. I have seen a lot of 8 Hour guys in my day, which is to say I hire them for 8 hours and they never come back for more


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

Brunz said:


> Obviously in regards to farming, well... that is an industry you get out of what you put in, there is no getting around that.


or at least if you try your best ... but there are always things stacked against you . 
a good year / harvest and the price drops because there's lots
a bad year / harvest and the price rises a bit but you have less product to sell.

machinery breaks down any time and you have to wait for parts while the crop degrades or doesn't get planted .
BTW , not every farmer is a mechanic ... and even if he was, the manufacturers have followed the car companies lead... you can replace the parts yourself but the machines need special tools to reset the computers to recognize the repairs.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

It's a lot easier to work long and hard for your own business than someone else's. I don't mind working hard, but long has it's limits.

For me, weekends are precious - especially when our kids were still interested in spending time with us.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

I've learned the following lessons over my various careers:

1) My time is my commodity. I do not give it away for free. If I'm working, then you're paying me. Employees who do things like come in early, work through breaks, and work past the end of their shift without claiming it are doing neither themselves or anyone around them any favours. In fact, they're artificially inflating what productivity can be expected during a work shift. If there's more work to do than time to do it in a work day then the employer either needs to increase the number of workers available to cover the work, OR authorize overtime to cover the extra time required.

2) Don't be too good at a job otherwise they'll never let you do anything else. This lesson sucks but it's true. Especially "worker bee" type roles. They're not going to promote you to foreman or supervisor if you're already doing your work plus the work of a leader type position at the same time. We are conditioned to believe, "work hard, work smart, and you'll move up in the world." But how often do you see the promotion go to the person that does less than you? Basically don't make yourself so invaluable that they can't afford to move you anywhere other than where you're at.

3) Doing your work faster/more efficiently means they'll just give you more work to do. How often do you see highly capable workers getting burned out because they're faster and more efficient so management just keeps handing them more to do? Or the few good workers doing 3x as much as the slower ones?

4) Meaningful work is more important than money. Yes, you need to have a livable wage, but sometimes it's not worth your sanity to work in a shitty work environment or do some boring work that serves no tangible purpose for a paycheque. People think having a "slack job" is some kind of dream. It's not. Eventually you feel like you're wasting your life. I'd rather work labour than sit in a chair and play solitaire all day.

5) Life is too short to work a job you hate. Suffer from weekly Sunday night insomnia because the thought of going in on Monday makes you feel ill? Time to dust off the resume and start looking at your options.


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

I got a problem with my eye, I can't see myself coming in.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

i farm some and work for others some and have people work for me sometimes.

the fact that it's your own farm makes a big difference. 

i'm happy to work long or flexible hours on projects that i'm literally and personally invested in but if it's somebody else's cattle and somebody else's canola then there's not the same drive. off farm i work in construction management and the GC or specialty subcontractor can be expected to show up early, have the site ready to go, stay late to meet with clients or the designer, and so on. but the crew guys are different - show up on time, work hard, and leave on time, get paid the correct amount promptly. maybe occasional OT but if the GC expects overtime or evening/weekend availability all the time you're gonna lose your good guys through burnout and taking advantage. 

i know a few farmers around here who expect the same level of dedication and enthusiasm from their employees as they feel. that's unreasonable. i feel the way i feel about my animals and my fields and my crops and my woodlands partly because of the rewarding work but also because my grandfather farmed here and so did my dad and now i do and perhaps one day one of my kids will. somebody i hire to pull a manure spreader around can't and shouldn't be expected to share that dedication with me. so if i say we start at 8 and end at 5 then we start not before 8 and he should be stepping off the parked tractor at 5 and if i want to work longer then hurray for me. 

i spent the day today - saturday - blowing snow out of the cattle handling chutes so we can haul calves to market on monday. it was a fun time working with my dad on a project we both have a stake in. did i get paid? not by the hour i didn't

j


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I've been sole proprietor self-employed for 23 years and I'm trying to ease into retirement. I only work weekends on rare occasions to catch up, and take all the school holidays except PD days. If I wanted to work overtime, on calls, shifts, holidays, and weekends I'd go back to working for someone else.

However, I don't farm. I suspect farming is in a class of its own with few comparators...maybe fishing...though I represented a lot of municipal roads and health care workers who knew a thing or two about many and long hours.

One of my previous careers was in labour relations (union side) and I saw my share of layabouts, dog-fuckers, grifters, and the like on both sides of the employment relationship. Some were really good at hiding their unwillingness to work, others not so much. I'll say this though, if it's in the job description to work at a particular time, the employer needs to make it perfectly clear and the employee needs to show up. It works better when there are terms and conditions, which is why I always preferred the collective agreement, but a non-union jobsite can have agreed upon terms as well.

I have lots of farmer friends and to a person they're the salt of the earth.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

…a means to an end, but that doesn’t mean I that I don’t take pride in what I do.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

Work pays for me to eat and buy guitars. That’s about it.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

RBlakeney said:


> Work pays for me to eat and buy guitars. That’s about it.


Truth be told, I often gauge my income based on guitars I could buy with it. The Mrs is the responsible one, ie, I'd be living under a bridge in my very own cardboard box without her.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> "work hard, work smart, and you'll move up in the world."


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I see myself going in to work tomorrow.


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

When I was farming, Sunday was my day to do all the things I couldn't do during the other 6 days. When there was a problem with cattle, EVERYTHING stopped until it was rectified. At the mercy of the weather, bought everything retail and sold everything wholesale, never went to Vegas because I was gambling all the time. Outside employment for my wife and I because there was never enough income and still.... I miss the rhythm and struggle. Strange.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Reminds me of a few lines from a Fred Eaglesmith song.

Mary says it’ll be alright.
If nothing else goes wrong.
She got a job at the five and dime.
And the hours ain’t too long.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Wardo said:


> Reminds me of a few lines from a Fred Eaglesmith song.
> 
> Mary says it’ll be alright.
> If nothing else goes wrong.
> ...


I havent heard that song in quite some time, thanks for a memory.


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

For the average middle class worker you can have either time or money. Not both. Somewhere there is a happy balance.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

middle class these daze?


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

You get up every morning from your alarm clock's warning
Take the 8:15 into the city
There's a whistle up above and people pushin', people shovin'
And the girls who try to look pretty
And if your train's on time, you can get to work by nine
And start your slaving job to get your pay
If you ever get annoyed, look at me I'm self-employed
I love to work at nothing all day.
BTO


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

It's hard to get excited about a job that will only cover a basic subsistence level. As a result, simple labour is a hard position to fill. 
I think when people find work that is meaningful to them, they are all in.


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## nbs2005 (Mar 21, 2018)

The average male Canadian life expectancy is about 4300 weeks. I find it curious that we intrinsically value those who spend most of that time working and have less perceived value for those who don't.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

I work in a profession (teaching) that can utterly take over your life. In my early years 10-12 hour days with a quickly inhaled lunch and no other breaks were common. Exhaustion at the end of the day. The mind always in the job, enormous stress. Within ten years I had no work/life balance and a number of heath problems related to stress, sitting at a desk and poor eating habits. The joke that teachers do a year worth if work in ten months is funny because it is true.

I came to realize that my employer would replace me without a second thought regardless of the hours and dedication.
I have learned that my “good enough” is better than many other people’s best, the benefit of experience I guess. So, long story short, I do most of my work during work hours now. I’m happier and getting healthier now.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

I come from that WW2/Eastern European work ethic which says if you aren't bleeding from more than three places, you can work.

Here's the thing: who lies on their deathbed, surrounded by loved ones and thinks "I really should have worked more"?

Farming, to my outside view, is a way of life, and not just a job: an avocation, instead of a vocation. If it's your family farm, it is part of the family identity. If you're paying someone to come in and do labour, they can't be expected to have the same level of commitment. And they should expect their weekends free unless scheduled to work them (i.e. their work week is Tues-Sat). People have a right to a life outside work.

I damn near killed myself through work and stress, and I am still trying to undo the damage I did to myself (while still doing damage in other ways -- I need to lose a LOT of weight). I live in fear that my work will try to make me go back to my old job, which I didn't realise was hurting me so much until I was out of it.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Went out for lunch the other day, first time in .. months maybe a year? Half the store fronts had help wanted or hiring signs on them. Most were restaurants, fast food places. I get the sense for some reason people are not out there looking for work.

As for farm vs other jobs.. I grew up on a farm and I can see the difference in attitude it brings in my career, but I also see lots of people with huge work ethics that did not come from farming.
Keep hiring people eventually you might find someone.

At the same time I have some young people working for us that will not work evenings or weekends even when it's to do things they had time to do during their "work day" but didn't do. Can't explain it, but they have no 'shame' in producing bad work that is late and asking them to fix it themselves is met with 'whats wrong with it?' The trophy cartoon above is spot on imho.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

As others have indicated here, my employer provides an acceptable wage & benefits for me to provide a worthwhile service. The employment relationship itself has no real meaning to me however. I take a client-centered approach to my work (mental health & addiction services) so it's those folks that matter most to me, not the employer. I'm good at what I do and am compensated fairly for serving my community and that's enough for me. Straight up, I work to live rather than the other way around. I'm perfectly ok with that.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

StevieMac said:


> As others have indicated here, my employer provides an acceptable wage & benefits for me to provide a worthwhile service. The employment relationship itself has no real meaning to me however. I take a client-centered approach to my work (mental health & addiction services) so it's those folks that matter most to me, not the employer. I'm good at what I do and am compensated fairly for serving my community and that's enough for me. Straight up, I work to live rather than the other way around. I'm perfectly ok with that.


And that's how you wind up living in a place like Gananoque.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

I've been contemplating this for some time... I need to be careful, because some of the specifics could be added up, and "Oh, SWLABR works at Acme Supply Co"

When I started here, there were multiple managers, and supervisors. A direct colleague, and our boss. We each had a Supervisor under us. Now... just me. Well, in the building full time. I have no direct colleague (downsizing). His Supervisor packed it in, mine was realigned. Actually, promoted to head another dept, which I am very proud to be a part of. And, best of all, my new boss is remote. 

I was hired to work 6:00-2:00. Then someone (how this was not known when I was hired) said 40hrs, not 37.5. A workday = 8hrs + 1/2 unpaid lunch. My boss said, "OK, do you want to work 5:30-2:00, or 6:00-2:30?". I took the 5:30. Less traffic on the 401!! 
Now, I'm still getting in at 5:30, but if I leave before 4pm, it's a freakin miracle. A lot rests on my shoulders for success. (not bragging... it's f'n true) I know there are things that, if I did not do them, they would not get done. It's because there isn't anyone to do it. It's not like, well that guy just doesn't know. Cause, YOU TRAIN HIM!! No. It's me. It's all stuff we need done to keep the product going out the door. Things that also keep me gainfully employed. I like my job. I have to admit, it pays pretty damn good too. But I am burning out! I cannot keep up these (sometimes) 12hr days. I am minimum 50hrs/w. 
I have always given my all. Any job from a dishwasher in a restaurant, to mowing lawns, to delivering packages in heat, cold, rain, snow, mud... And now, I continue. But for what?? This is not my company, if I died right now, they would go on. They would have to find a way. So, why is it they can't give me someone to lighten my load now? Before I die, or win the lottery, or take a stress leave? 

"Not in the budget"

Rant done.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Many surveys over decades have indicted that 70% give or take regard work as toil.

While I enjoy my job, I could do without it and just play all day (w/ girls, cars & guitars).


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Rickenbacker198 said:


> I have worked in a family business (farm) my whole life , just me and my brother mostly the last few years.
> I really enjoy the challenge.
> It can be demanding , long hours at times, average about 48 hrs a week.
> Equipment can be frustrating and require problem solving/ MacGyvering etc.
> ...


I am 45. I was brought up to always work hard, and I did. It didn't matter the job (RE the original post, my first jobs were on farms). But I'm sort of on the edge of 2 generations where how hard you worked started to make no difference. No employer I have worked for gave a shit about me. They see everyone as easily replaceable. It's even less motivating for people when the wages aren't remotely inline with the cost of living. What is there for a lot of people to care about? It's hard to be loyal to employers who don't care about you.

I have had my own business the last few years, and I just work enough to get by and do things I enjoy. Being able to experiene some of life has become my priority.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There are two economies. One is the economy in which one earns a wage for effort expended, and you make your money from the sweat of your brow, or useful application of what you know. The other is an economy in which you make money by _having_ money, and sometimes by only having the _appearance_ or promise of money. Trouble is, many of the images we are regularly (and often deliberately) exposed to of people "living the good life" are of individuals who are members of that second economy. And that tends to undermine the perceived value/importance of hard work. It is what sells lottery tickets, what makes housing unaffordable these days, and makes $300 pedals sell for $2000 on Reverb.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

mhammer said:


> There are two economies. One is the economy in which one earns a wage for effort expended, and you make your money from the sweat of your brow, or useful application of what you know. The other is an economy in which you make money by _having_ money, and sometimes by only having the _appearance_ or promise of money. Trouble is, many of the images we are regularly (and often deliberately) exposed to of people "living the good life" are of individuals who are members of that second economy. And that tends to undermine the perceived value/importance of hard work. It is what sells lottery tickets, what makes housing unaffordable these days, and makes $300 pedals sell for $2000 on Reverb.


I am not sure of your age, but I can tell you economy #1 is disappearing in North America. You are absolutely not rewarded for hard work any more in more and more professions and jobs. I know people who love to blame that on younger generations and their attitudes, but that is massively simplifying things. There's a very good reason there's such a dark outlook for a lot of people. They are working hard and are being treated like shit in return for it. There aren't rewards for working hard unless you are lucky enough to have a really good employer. Which are also disappearing.


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

I dont really enjoy work. Never really have. There were a few good jobs out of the bunch that brought some joy to the job (teaching snowboarding, canoe and kayak guiding) but those were my 20's which seem like a distant memory (i'm 41 now). It wasnt until I started my own business that I found a sense of fulfillment related to the work i did. In addition to that you are directly rewarded by the amount of effort and quality that goes into your work. And you can charge what your worth! You're good enough. You're smart enough. And if people will pay you $100 an hour with a smile on their face, say thank you for your business and know that you did a good job! Oh and because people like you.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Work ? Well, had the chance to make long studies to earn my life well... But I can just compare with an even intelligent and capable friend who surprisingly ended after college to follow his uncle path as an electric tech. By age thirty, his house was paid, Not mine. Anyway, my C.V. allowed me to choose my jobs whenever I wanted to change. Work, just a money earning for me, though I sometimes felt I really had made something good. Retired, I look back and was I working for ? For what I now have as a retiree.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

torndownunit said:


> I am not sure of your age, but I can tell you economy #1 is disappearing in North America. You are absolutely not rewarded for hard work any more in more and more professions and jobs. I know people who love to blame that on younger generations and their attitudes, but that is massively simplifying things. There's a very good reason there's such a dark outlook for a lot of people. They are working hard and are being treated like shit in return for it. There aren't rewards for working hard unless you are lucky enough to have a really good employer. Which are also disappearing.


There's a difference between the *fact *of that economy existing, and whether or not one is _rewarded_ for participating in it and giving your all. I would agree with you that a great many are not "rewarded" in a manner that affords a decent standard of living these days.

I harken back to the days of Murray Westgate as your friendly Esso gas station attendant in his crisp uniform and hat, that we'd see pitching Esso gas in commercials during HNIC. The very notion that a grown man, presumably with a family to support, could earn a viable living pumping gas and checking your wiper fluid, is presently preposterous. A lot of jobs have been replaced with automation, either outright, or to a degree that the accompanying human work is devalued. Just try and imagine someone earning enough money for rent and food these days as an elevator operator. And many waged jobs are also being converted to juuuuuust enough hours that it falls below what's required for benefits.

I encourage people to check out the OLWN and participate if they can: Ontario Living Wage Network


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I like what I do. I had some not so great jobs along the way but made a career change when I was about 40 and became self employed. I like work and have no intention of retiring.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I always expected to be the guy who turned the lights off at work after everyone else had left. Then management started retiring and getting themselves a tasty promotion somewhere else. The "new guys" didn't know me or what my value was, and I got marginalized, after several years of being our organization's ambassador at conferences, and being directly consulted by our president and vice-president. I went from being valued to being ignored. After I went to the pre-retirement workshop - something I had, until that point, thought was irrelevant to me because I expected to be the last man standing - I did the math and realized that my standard of living would not have to take much of a hit if I simply walked away. So I walked. I thought I might get calls for contract work, but all the people who would know my worth had themselves retired and the phone never rang. Their loss.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

mhammer said:


> I always expected to be the guy who turned the lights off at work after everyone else had left. Then management started retiring and getting themselves a tasty promotion somewhere else. The "new guys" didn't know me or what my value was, and I got marginalized, after several years of being our organization's ambassador at conferences, and being directly consulted by our president and vice-president. I went from being valued to being ignored. After I went to the pre-retirement workshop - something I had, until that point, thought was irrelevant to me because I expected to be the last man standing - I did the math and realized that my standard of living would not have to take much of a hit if I simply walked away. So I walked. I thought I might get calls for contract work, but all the people who would know my worth had themselves retired and the phone never rang. Their loss.


I’ve always enjoyed being the guy who opens everything up to start the day. More than the last guy out. Although lately, I’ve been both.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

common thread ... management doesn't care / place will go on with out you / use you up and spit you out / be thankful you have a job / your ideas don't count / not in the budget.

nice to finally walk out on the spot after they give you the excuses ... then the the "my way or the highway" , sound familiar?

just start your own business and watch as they go down in flames because you aren't there.
and yes there were many "with money and connections" at the top that finally lost a lot of $$$$ ...


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

I was a labourer most of my life. Worked a lot of OT when I was younger and was physically able to and didn't spend much.
Just force fed our bank account so that everything was paid off, mortgage etc.
Retired at 55.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

laristotle said:


> I was a labourer most of my life. Worked a lot of OT when I was younger and was physically able to and didn't spend much.
> Just force fed our bank account so that everything was paid off, mortgage etc.
> Retired at 55.
> View attachment 407827


I like it!
Work hard, spend less. Seems to me like the winning strategy. Unless you are one of them smart folks who comes up with a better idea, but the name of the game is spend below your means. Then you will be well adjusted to poverty in time to retire


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## Rickenbacker198 (Jan 10, 2017)

Wow, I was too busy at work and missed all these great responses...

Thank you, especially Brunz and mhammer and everyone else who responded.

Every reply had some wisdom in it, some with vast amounts and some with years earned. 

I have no true perspective of working for another entity and you guys truly shed a light on it for me. 
As well as being able to understand my own relationship with work.

Yes farming is unique, it is hard and risky and to be (maybe) successfull, it is a lifestyle.
After thinking on the responses I realized,

Work is part of our identity whether we want it to be or not.

There is no right or wrong way to see work, it's a personal choice shaped by our culture, expierence and personality.

For me to expect the same commitment of time from an employee is unreasonable. 

Having someone on the team that puts in a normal hard days work and the odd long day when necessary, is enough.

I carry a burden that no one else can.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Rickenbacker198 said:


> For me to expect the same commitment of time from an employee is unreasonable.
> 
> Having someone on the team that puts in a normal hard days work and the odd long day when necessary, is enough.


When I worked on the golf courses years ago I started as a grunt and I absolutely loved it. I was interested in a career, I wanted to learn even the most mundane stuff, and I was loyal and worked my ass off (I had to take a different career route due to some health issues). So there are employees out there looking to learn and push themselves. You summed it up well though by saying it's really tough to expect that nowadays from hard jobs you can barely make a living doing. But you can hold out some hope for it.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

torndownunit said:


> When I worked on the golf courses years ago I started as a grunt and I absolutely loved it. I was interested in a career, and I was loyal and worked my ass off (I had to take a different route due to some health issues). So there are employees out there looking to learn and push themselves. You summed it up well though by saying it's tough to expect that nowadays. But you can hold out some hope for it.


I second that. I got dragged out of bed 21 years ago stoned and probably hung over to go work flooring with a buddies dad, but as useless as my personal choices in lifestyle were i was keen. I paid attention and worked hard, learned as much as I could and here we are today. Last year I grossed 157k using only my two hands and the knowledge I obtained. There are folks out there who are eager to learn and keen to work but none of them can be expected to have the same care for your endeavor as you do, even though some might.


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## markxander (Oct 24, 2009)

Rickenbacker198 said:


> I have worked in a family business (farm) my whole life , just me and my brother mostly the last few years.
> I really enjoy the challenge.
> It can be demanding , long hours at times, average about 48 hrs a week.
> Equipment can be frustrating and require problem solving/ MacGyvering etc.
> ...


you own the farm
people you hire don't own the farm
that matters like... a lot?


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## markxander (Oct 24, 2009)

sorry, i should add -- you own the farm, which is in Ontario so it's worth millions in land and equipment and is completely inaccessible to anyone who you would ever hire

i don't farm, but I've provided professional services to farms and farm orgs for the last 10ish years. farmers in Ontario as a group are significantly wealthier than most non-farming rural people and urban people. it's certainly hard work, and by the nature of it you're usually cash poor because you have to constantly reinvest in the farm (seed, equipment, help, and a million other expenses), but it's still an outrageously good investment over time.

nobody you hire is ever going to see any of those benefits, so they have absolutely no incentive to go above and beyond their wage slavery to make you richer


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Rickenbacker198 said:


> For me to expect the same commitment of time from an employee is unreasonable.
> 
> Having someone on the team that puts in a normal hard days work and the odd long day when necessary, is enough.
> 
> I carry a burden that no one else can.


Perhaps, but some employers have found that profit-sharing can elicit the same sort of employee commitment to the enterprise that one has oneself.

Of course, farming being the gamble that it is, debt-sharing is not NEARLY as attractive as profit-sharing. 

For a number of years, I was heavily into the research and theory of "employee engagement". I'll note in passing that mainstream organizational psychology rarely uses the term. It's mostly peddled by consulting firms to management that would like to see more output from less investment. Employee motivation and commitment IS fundamental to a well-run business, but too much of the blather about engagement is from the employer's perspective, and little from the employee's.

Engagement is the opposite of burnout. How and where does burnout occur? It is most likely to occur in roles and professions where someone is attempting to achieve some personal or social goal they care very much about, and now nothing they do, no matter how hard they try, seems to put a dent in it or make a difference any more. Under those circumstances, it is hard to work up a head of steam, and people lose their sense of attachment to, or investment in, the role. It can feel like that role is now punishing them, rather than accomplishing something. Sometimes that can be simply because the task demands have escalated sharply, relative to the resources to deal with it (as so many health care staff have experienced during the pandemic).

So what allows a worker at any level to be "engaged"? I would say it is the perception that their effort is in some way "justified". For some folks, "justified" can be as simple as a nice salary, or perks. For others, it can be compliments from coworkers or customers/clients. If one works in an organization where there is a ladder to move up, whatever effort one puts in to learn about the organization and groom oneself for greater responsibility in it, can feel justified by promotions, or even seeing the promise of possible promotion in future. And of course, if senior positions seem to always be filled with "fly-ins" and never draw on local talent, that sense of justified effort simply evaporates.

In the case of family businesses, which would include farming, part of the sense of "justified effort" is the sense that the family bonds are strengthened. The feeling that others close to you are always there for you, is part of what can make a family business feel "worth it".


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

markxander said:


> sorry, i should add -- you own the farm, which is in Ontario so it's worth millions in land and equipment and is completely inaccessible to anyone who you would ever hire
> 
> i don't farm, but I've provided professional services to farms and farm orgs for the last 10ish years. farmers in Ontario as a group are significantly wealthier than most non-farming rural people and urban people. it's certainly hard work, and by the nature of it you're usually cash poor because you have to constantly reinvest in the farm (seed, equipment, help, and a million other expenses), but it's still an outrageously good investment over time.
> 
> nobody you hire is ever going to see any of those benefits, so they have absolutely no incentive to go above and beyond their wage slavery to make you richer


I think you're assuming an inherited farm, which in many cases is true, but there are those who bought farms using bank loans... and their debt is huge. 
I grew up on farm my dad purchased..yes it was 1960ish but he spent 50 years paying the bank loan back. Equipment got very expensive and the market for old stuff was not great. When my brother and I got out of high school interest rates were 18% and farmers call around were losing their farms. We both went to university. My property value, an urban house, is now greater than that of that farm.


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## markxander (Oct 24, 2009)

even a farm with a huge bank loan is an asset, and you're probably even more incentivized to put work hours into it so you can pay off the loan

just because you owe money against the farm doesn't do anything to change the relationship between you (the person who owns the farm/most of the farm/part of the farm) and the employee


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Had a friend years ago who, while driving across the GTA to work one day, did some rough figuring in his head and worked out that it was costing him more money to go to work than he was adding to his pension…or something like that. When he got to work, he went to the boss‘s office, grabbed a piece of paper and a pen, scribbled out his notice and informed the boss a replacement would need to be called. He never returned, not even to clean out his desk…there may have been issues… Anyway, he later proclaimed that it was so much the right thing to do as he was soon diagnosed with terminal cancer and the end was nigh. Quitting didn’t console all his regrets, but it helped.


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## DaddyDog (Apr 21, 2017)

mhammer said:


> you make money by _having_ money, and sometimes by only having the _appearance_ or promise of money


Have you watched Inventing Anna on Netflix? or watched the 60 Minutes' segments on Anna Delvey? Proof of mhammer's comment! 

Interesting thread. Thanks to all who contributed. I expect to be in a position to retire this year, so I've spent a lot of time contemplating work, and what I get out of it.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

DaddyDog said:


> Have you watched Inventing Anna on Netflix?


Looking forward to her book to be published.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

DaddyDog said:


> Have you watched Inventing Anna on Netflix? or watched the 60 Minutes' segments on Anna Delvey? Proof of mhammer's comment!


Not proof, but certainly an example. She is apparently in the process of being deported and fighting it vigorously.


> Interesting thread. Thanks to all who contributed. I expect to be in a position to retire this year, so I've spent a lot of time contemplating work, and what I get out of it.


People actually get a lot out of work. Many who "retire" from primary employment continue to participate in the workforce, in one form or another, whether in part-time contract work, formalizing a hobby interest into a small revenue stream, or volunteer work. Paid work supplements their pension and investment income, but work itself provides many things that feel like "normal" to us, like a weekly schedule, "weekends", the cameraderie of co-workers and social interaction, and simply the notion of doing something worthwhile or of consequence.

I'm not saying that a person should NOT retire or aspire to it. I'm just saying that there is a lot about work and working, just like having a romantic partner, that makes one feel like they are "in the world" and not outside of it, looking in. If they are reluctant to let that go completely, it's not because they are suckers. It's because they are human.

And since the thread started out on a farming note, I'll add that farmers tend to stick at it for a looooonnnnngggg time, with many working well into their 70s, or longer, if health permits. Some of that may well be because of debt, but an equal or greater amount is because the routine and dedication is what feels "normal", and the thrill of a successful crop is not likely something that ever goes away.


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