# Gigging Amp For $600?



## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

If you needed a guitar amp to start playing with a full band with a sound like the Hip, what used or new amps would you be looking for/at if your budget was say $600?


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

Roland Blues cube. best ever gigging amp made.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

If you have a board with some decent OD pedals, I would look for a decent clean sound & enough headroom (30W+).

Amps that come to mind that price point include Peavey Classic or Fender Hot Rod series. Traynor probably has a few models in that category too.

A MOD 1 head/vertical 212 cab would be pretty cool, though maybe a little over budget.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

There are so many good used amps in that price range it’s very hard to recommend one. My suggestion would be to go to the local stores and try as many as you can find in the $800 to $1,200 price range. When you find one you like look for a good used one.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

capnjim said:


> Roland Blues cube. best ever gigging amp made.


Really eh?

I always found that solid state amps just sounded washed out in a rock setting with drums, two guitars and bass.


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## bigboki (Apr 16, 2015)

There was a kijiji alert for vintage traynor for something ridiculously low. let me try to find it
Psa Traynor Ontario $250

seems still available


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## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

A Traynor YGL1 reissue can be had in your budget.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Lord-Humongous said:


> A Traynor YGL1 reissue can be had in your budget.


I would think 30 watts minimum to play rock with a drummer, another guitarist and a bass player. Starting out it's not like we would have guitar in our monitors.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Guncho said:


> I would think 30 watts minimum to play rock with a drummer, another guitarist and a bass player. Starting out it's not like we would have guitar in our monitors.


I gig with a Fender DRRI which is just 20 watts and it's loud enough even for a loud drummer. For suggestions, a used Peavey Classic 30 or a Traynor YCV40 can be had for less than $600.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2017)

Roryfan said:


> Amps that come to mind that price point include Peavey Classic or *Fender Hot Rod* series.





Guncho said:


> I would think 30 watts minimum to play rock with a drummer, another guitarist and a bass player.


I'm thinking of selling/trading my 40 watt '09 Hotrod Deluxe. Any interest?


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## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

Guncho said:


> I would think 30 watts minimum to play rock with a drummer, another guitarist and a bass player. Starting out it's not like we would have guitar in our monitors.


Valid point. I think where you play and rehearse as well as the rest of the band's set up will be a factor to consider. That said, I have rehearsed and gigged with mine without any complaints, it's a loud amp irrespective of the wattage. If you are competing with a Marshall stack on the other side of the room though, you'll be disappointed. 

Perhaps you could rent a few amps to try from L&M to see what works for your band?


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## Spazsquatch (Aug 2, 2017)

Lord-Humongous said:


> Perhaps you could rent a few amps to try from L&M to see what works for your band?


This upcoming Saturday is 1/2 price rental day. Good chance to experiment with a few options on the cheap.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I gigged with my YGL1 without issue in a five piece band.
Gain between 3 and 4 and volume on 3, plenty of headroom.
I used pedal for gain though.

I did use it with a DH 1x12 and swapped out the speaker with Webers.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Guncho said:


> Really eh?
> 
> I always found that solid state amps just sounded washed out in a rock setting with drums, two guitars and bass.


Well, he's looking for something that will help him play Hip material, and I couldn't help but notice when watching the big CBC concert that Paul Langlois was using a Randall, which are most often solid state. That could be the answer right there.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

sulphur said:


> I gigged with my YGL1 without issue in a five piece band.
> Gain between 3 and 4 and volume on 3, plenty of headroom.
> I used pedal for gain though.
> 
> I did use it with a DH 1x12 and swapped out the speaker with Webers.


I'm surprised that would keep up with a loud rock band.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Rollin Hand said:


> Well, he's looking for something that will help him play Hip material, and I couldn't help but notice when watching the big CBC concert that Paul Langlois was using a Randall, which are most often solid state. That could be the answer right there.


I doubt he's playing anything solid state but I could be wrong.

Here's a pic from the Kingston show.

JCM 800?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

$600? Peavey, vintage traynor, fender, marshall, vox, pick your poison haha.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

Peavey Valveking or 5150 Mini heads. 

Sub 600.00 and loud enough for anything


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

The amp kept up easily, no mics during practice either.

I'd leave the same settings during gigs and the amp isn't even half way.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I gig regularly with my DRRI. 22 watts but with a G12H30 speaker which is more efficient than stock. The DRRI keeps up easily with my other guitarists YCV50 (50 watts) and my DSL401 (40 watts).

Watts can be funny things. 

Anyway if you want a great value powerhouse with 2 decent channels I highly recommend the Traynor YCV series. Used ones seem to go at around $400 - $450 I'd say.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Langlois' amps look like RG100ES heads. Solid state but pretty great sounding- at least the one example I've played. As far as a giggable amp for $600- if you're buying used that's totally doable- as mentioned Peavey Classic series, Fender Hot Rods, lots of great choices. A 30-50w 1x12 or 2x12 should be easy to find in that range.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

djmarcelca said:


> Peavey Valveking or 5150 Mini heads.
> 
> Sub 600.00 and loud enough for anything


Peavey VK's should be avoided. Ive heard one sound good and it was modded. Classic, delta blues are much better amps.


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## silvertonebetty (Jan 4, 2015)

Used fender or vox 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

Guncho said:


> Really eh?
> 
> I always found that solid state amps just sounded washed out in a rock setting with drums, two guitars and bass.


Thats such a ridiculous statement, I have no reply.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

gtrguy said:


> Langlois' amps look like RG100ES heads. Solid state but pretty great sounding- at least the one example I've played. As far as a giggable amp for $600- if you're buying used that's totally doable- as mentioned Peavey Classic series, Fender Hot Rods, lots of great choices. A 30-50w 1x12 or 2x12 should be easy to find in that range.


I had one of those randalls for awhile...it was ok. Just ok.

id vote for something like a Marshall JCm800, 900 combo. or a peavey 5150 combo ( I presume when you say you need an "amp" for $600, you need speakers as well).


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## Rideski (Feb 25, 2009)

I'd suggest the DRRI (although may not find one at $600 used) or a Blues Jr. (easily had for $450 used). Both are stellar gigging amps. Some will say the Blues is only 15 watts but I've gigged that amp many times without ever having to dime it.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

Budda said:


> Peavey VK's should be avoided. Ive heard one sound good and it was modded. Classic, delta blues are much better amps.



Strange. Mine sounds great. 
I could post videos of it playing live as well.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Chito said:


> I gig with a Fender DRRI which is just 20 watts and it's loud enough even for a loud drummer. For suggestions, a used Peavey Classic 30 or a Traynor YCV40 can be had for less than $600.


Depends on the speaker efficiency too, and whether dirty/clean tone, but maybe what you think is a loud drummer isn't so much. The guitarist in one of my bands has a 30-35 watt Garnet 2x12 combo and that's not enough with our drummer (formerly of many hardcore punk bands; hits harder than I like - uses my kit for jams).

From what I recall of the Gunchman, he is gonna want more than 20watts. What happenned to your S-D Convertible man? That woulda been perfect with the power scaling.

Anyway; I second the Peavey Classic series (as far as combo's go). If 30 isn't enough there's also a 50.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Rollin Hand said:


> Well, he's looking for something that will help him play Hip material, and I couldn't help but notice when watching the big CBC concert that Paul Langlois was using a Randall, which are most often solid state. That could be the answer right there.


I dunno what he was using, but when it comes to SS Randalls (we don't know it was SS,) then they are a bit different - those are very heavily voiced in an 80s hair metal way (I recently restored and flipped a 50 watt Randall head). They can totally cut through due to that, and yeah, it's possible the Hip could use that tone even though it seems counter-intuitive. The dirt on those cuts a lot of bass from the sound which allows it to get dirtier without mud but also the antithesis of blues tone . They are shredder amps (think Dimebag; litterally - he used them), but like I said, sometimes you can make things work.... or it could be a tube Randall which are a different beast altogether.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

How about something like an Egnater rebel 30? or one of the little mini heads from Orange or Mack? used pricing should be within your budget. small is nice for gigging. and the mack amps are surprisingly loud, and not "too metal" which it sounds like a Hip guy wouldn't want.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

And hell, lets make it 3 posts in a row; just saw this:

https://www.guitarscanada.com/index...ra-filmo-soldano-matchless-clone-more.169665/

Only a bit of a drive, but IMHO worth it for that Garnet Sessionman. Those are great amps and if that isn't enough power for you then you're doing it wrong (contrary to the add mine had 2 x 6CA7s /EL34s; reverb is good too). If it works that's a good price. ... oh wait that's head only (dunno if you still own a cab). ... he also has a tube Randal 2x12 combo in that same thread for a bit cheaper.


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## Jimi D (Oct 27, 2008)

I've had a lot of combos... gigged a lot of combos... and there are a lot of good suggestions here (many of which I've used)...

Today, my fave gigging combo is my Mesa Express 2:25+, but the one I've owned the longest and continue to use quite frequently is my *Tech 21 Trademark 60*. Pair it up with a dirt pedal or two nd you have a super reliable, great sounding setup with direct XLR out to the board to get you into the PA, plenty of volume for stage and small/medium halls, bullet-proof build and reliability, luscious reverb and light weight in one relatively inexpensive package... It's a great amp for the gigging guitarist with no tubes to blow or bias so super easy to maintain. Highly recommended.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

The reason I recommend the blues cube is we used to do quite a few hip tunes. The BC has a two position crunch setting on the clean channel, and will nail the hip tones. The high gain channel is perfect for leads. I gigged for years with it using only a wah pedal and chorus pedal. Its literally the best sounding amp I have ever owned and that included many dozens of tube amps.
Don't believe it when you read that you have to have a tube amp. Its a bit of hype. I also had a Trademark 60 and you would not be able to tell its clean sound from any tube amp in the world. I prefer the BC over the Trademark 60 as you don't need dirt pedals.

Plus, the BC has two channels each with tone controls and pre and post gain. And it also has a real long tank spring reverb.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

capnjim said:


> Thats such a ridiculous statement, I have no reply.


Why? I found tube amps to punch through and solid state amps to not.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Rideski said:


> I'd suggest the DRRI (although may not find one at $600 used) or a Blues Jr. (easily had for $450 used). Both are stellar gigging amps. Some will say the Blues is only 15 watts but I've gigged that amp many times without ever having to dime it.


Weird maybe my old band was just really loud but I can't imagine a 15 watt amp keeping up with a 50 watt tube head through a Marshall 4x10 and a Fender Twin.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Depends on the speaker efficiency too, and whether dirty/clean tone, but maybe what you think is a loud drummer isn't so much. The guitarist in one of my bands has a 30-35 watt Garnet 2x12 combo and that's not enough with our drummer (formerly of many hardcore punk bands; hits harder than I like - uses my kit for jams).
> 
> From what I recall of the Gunchman, he is gonna want more than 20watts. What happenned to your S-D Convertible man? That woulda been perfect with the power scaling.
> 
> Anyway; I second the Peavey Classic series (as far as combo's go). If 30 isn't enough there's also a 50.


I sold the two Seymour Duncan Convertible heads and the '77 Ibanez Artist when I stopped playing in bands and bought a Fender Blues Jr and an attenuator.

A few years later I sold the Traynor PA, Marshall 4x10 and floor monitors to buy a Roland TD-3 kit.

A few years after that I sold the Les Paul, Blues Jr and all my pedals save the wah to buy the Martin D-18.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Appreciated.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

Just to say "solid state amps....." I mean, there are hundreds, and they are all different. The Blues Cube is 60 watts and I guarantee there is no problem with it cutting through.
I got rid of the Trademark 60 as it was way too loud and I found it hard to tame. It cut through too much.
But, by all means get a tube amp.
Just don't forget your extra tubes, fuses, and to have it biased and caps changed on a regular basis.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

capnjim said:


> Just to say "solid state amps" I mean, there are hundreds, and they are all different. The Blues Cube is 60 watts and I guarantee there is no problem with it cutting through.
> I got rid of the Trademark 60 as it was way too loud and I found it hard to tame. It cut through too much.
> But, by all means get a tube amp.
> Just don't forget your extra tubes, fuses, and to have it biased and caps changed on a regular basis.


Don't get me wrong I love playing through Guitar Rig 4. It's so versatile and easy to use. I wish there was an amp like that that could cut through in a loud rock band. Maybe there is. Maybe technology has come a long way. That's kind of why I posted this question. I'm not enamored with tube amps, I'm enamored with being able to hear myself. If there's a solid state amp out there that can do that, I'm all for it.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

I will agree with you on one aspect of solid state amps, modelling amps. I find them to be as you described. They don't cut through and don't sound very good. They sound totally different at home than they do in a gig or jam.
All I know is I have owned hundreds of amps over the years, and if I had to pick one to gig with it would be the Blues Cube 60.
Anyways, best of luck in your Quest. If you decide to go for a tube amp, the Peavey Classic 50 is a pretty darn good amp. I used one at a buddys house where we used to jam quite often. It was the 4x10 version and it sounded great.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

A Roland Blues Cube, for its price, will change your mind about SS amps. You can pay more than 2x the price for a Vox AC30C2 is want that 'real' tube sound. It is also more rugged. I find inflexible, narrow minded, tube purism more and more irritating over time. (I use a 15w Fender Tube amp with an attenuator at home)


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

capnjim said:


> Just to say "solid state amps....." I mean, there are hundreds, and they are all different. The Blues Cube is 60 watts and I guarantee there is no problem with it cutting through.
> I got rid of the Trademark 60 as it was way too loud and I found it hard to tame. It cut through too much.
> But, by all means get a tube amp.
> Just don't forget your extra tubes, fuses, and to have it biased and caps changed on a regular basis.


cap job every 10-15 years, tubes every 1-3 years depending on usage, bias if your amp requires it (most modern amps don't require biasing every time you swap tubes).

Seriously, enough with the "oh watch out, tube amp upkeep is tough!" stuff - it's not. It hasn't been for a long time.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Budda said:


> cap job every 10-15 years, tubes every 1-3 years depending on usage, bias if your amp requires it (most modern amps don't require biasing every time you swap tubes).
> 
> Seriously, enough with the "oh watch out, tube amp upkeep is tough!" stuff - it's not. It hasn't been for a long time.


Every amp I've ever had an issue with has been PCB (a Mesa LSS & Fender CVR come to mind), and it wasn't the tubes that were the problem. Compare & contrast with well worn a tweed Champ that I took to Glenn Morris for the installation of a 3-prong cord (I enjoy not dying) and he changed a couple of caps. That was the first service that had ever been done to that amp, it took him 10-15 minutes & cost me <$40.

DRRI is a great gigging amp, esp.with a Greenback or G12H30 to warm & loud them up.. If you find one for $600 buy them all.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

All the answers you required were in post number 3 of this thread. The rest is going to be a rabbit hole of everyones fav stuff, it isn't necessary for what you want to do and plenty will be tough on budget. Look for a Classic 30/50 because they are very loud, have nice cleans and not a terrible drive channel. Look for a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe because they are cheap, plentiful, loud and have great cleans but the drive isn't the best. If you have an overdrive pedal the dirt can come from that. You can find a C30 for just over 200 bucks and a HRD or C50 for 400 bucks. Maintaining tubes is easy, not necessary to replace as often as people think and cheap for entry level stuff. Good luck.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

The Hip is the only stuff I MUST play to when I play to CD's. My Traynor YCS90 does well IMO (both Bobby or Paul...I like to play both at differing times, or a bit of both) I'd think the YCS50 would be good too. saying that, I don't try and nail the tone to an absolute T. I do find it a versatile amp and I'd bet a more experience player could dial in even better than I usually have it set at. Sometimes it sounds so epic (playing Hip) it gives me goosebumps. Grace too is always a fave. Sounds so alive, like its own entity...not sure I can describe it


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

In that price range for that style I'd look for a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe or a USA Peavey Classic 410 or 2x12. You get to buy an overdrive pedal with your change.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Gawd can't imagine lugging a 4x10 combo amp around. Heavy!


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Guncho said:


> Weird maybe my old band was just really loud but I can't imagine a 15 watt amp keeping up with a 50 watt tube head through a Marshall 4x10 and a Fender Twin.


I used to think that. It was true with the first 4 dual EL84 amps and the 5E3 dual 6V6 amp I own. Helped me justify a PowerStation - to make them all giggable. 

The DRRI does not that have that problem with any drummer I've played with. In fact, I put an Emi FDM (Mav) speaker in it so I can turn it down a bit for smaller rooms. The Mesa TA15 also proved to me a dual EL84 amp can hang with a drummer with any average-efficiency cabinet I choose. I don't know what Mesa does with their power section, but they get tremendous peak output out of those tubes, in the TA as well as the newer Mark series amps. 

All moot though, because I doubt you'd find any of those amps in that last paragraph for $600. If you want to make sure you have the volume and headroom, I'd sure be looking at an HRD and a pedal or two. Or some of the 50ish watt Traynor options mentioned. Great bang for the buck.



Roryfan said:


> Every amp I've ever had an issue with has been PCB (a Mesa LSS & Fender CVR come to mind), and it wasn't the tubes that were the problem. Compare & contrast with well worn a tweed Champ that I took to Glenn Morris for the installation of a 3-prong cord (I enjoy not dying) and he changed a couple of caps. That was the first service that had ever been done to that amp, it took him 10-15 minutes & cost me <$40.
> 
> DRRI is a great gigging amp, esp.with a Greenback or G12H30 to warm & loud them up.. If you find one for $600 buy them all.


Funny enough, I've owned some of those and the only one that let me down was the DRRI. Nothing to do with the PCB though, it just decided to toast the rectifier tube - which is a fatal failure and dum-dum me didn't have a spare in my bag. If the same thing happened to my LSS (and I heard it was a problem with some of them), I would just switch to the 30 watt setting and use the internal SS rectifier. At least not a fatal error in that amp.


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## Fuzzy dagger (Jun 3, 2016)

Hot rod delux you can get for $500.00. Lots of loud there, needs an od pedal for good dirt. My yba1-mod 1 is in the shop so I've been using my crate v1512. It's a great sounding el84 at 15 watts. We're not "loud", but we have drums, bass and two guitars. I raise it up off the floor to project past the band. Helps me hear it better too.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

vadsy said:


> All the answers you required were in post number 3


That would be in contravention of the rule that states there must be a minimum of 27 answers and at least as many opinions and misc jibes for every thread that has a question in it's title.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

Yep the peavey classic weighs a ton. Especially up stars. The Hot rod deluxe if you are interested, only go with the 3 model. It is upgraded over the originals which could be well over twenty years old. The 3 has not been out that long and lots out there for $600.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

It's been mentioned before, but I'm also going to recommend the Fender Hot Rod Deluxe (or Blues Deluxe). 

For the money, there's no better amp for gigging. Not too heavy, plenty loud, does cleans and dirt, can be carried in one hand, footswitch, reverb, reliable, not too expensive to re-tube, can be found used for $500 or less. It pretty much checks every box you need. I had one and loved it. If I was in a band where one guitar sound would work, I'd still own it, but I need to cop lots of tones, which is why I've given up on amps and moved to modelers. The Fender HRD is the ultimate gigging amp on the cheap.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

The OP's request screams Traynor or Peavey Classic to me.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

That $500 Randall could be the ticket.

https://www.guitarscanada.com/index...ano-matchless-clone-more.169665/#post-1670633


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

I find it pretty funny that most are trying to recommend a tube amp as a gigging amp. as much as I disagree with capnjim mostly, his recommendation was spot on.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

all these posts and not one mention of vht. nearly all of you will pooh-pooh them, even though you haven't tried one. most people assume because they're chinese they must be shit. 
i've had 4 of them, and i think they're the best kept secret in guitar. hand wired tube amps for cheap. there isn't one amp out there within double the price that offers the same features, while also being easily modded due to the fact they are point-to-point. some claim they have cheap components, but again, have never owned one, other than MAYBE the special 6. all of the ones i had sounded great and never once gave me a problem. because of this i can buy used ones for next to nothing when someone occasionally gives one up for sale.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

VHT Special 12/20 For Sale | Amps & Pedals | City of Toronto | Kijiji. Put the $25 in your tank to go get it. Cheap ?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

TDeneka said:


> I find it pretty funny that most are trying to recommend a tube amp as a gigging amp. as much as I disagree with capnjim mostly, his recommendation was spot on.


Yea, I can't think of anyone successfully gigging a tube amp. 

Oh wait, yes I can. 


In fact it's pretty funny, in a delusional sort of way, not recognizing them for what they are. But some people bend over backwards to be the contrarian, don't they now?


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> Yea, I can't think of anyone successfully gigging a tube amp.
> 
> Oh wait, yes I can.
> 
> ...


Way to take things out of context bud. You're a clown.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

TDeneka said:


> Way to take things out of context bud. You're a clown.


What context?

Your brief post indicated that recommend a tube amp for gigging was a funny idea. I suggest that most of the guitar playing community, especially gigging players, would disagree. I do. 

Perhaps you meant to address the price limitation? That's been addressed a few times, too.


Oh yea, I nearly forgot: _insert personal insult here. _Ya know, just so's were communicatin'.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Here we go...


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

TDeneka said:


> I find it pretty funny that most are trying to recommend a tube amp as a gigging amp. as much as I disagree with capnjim mostly, his recommendation was spot on.


Are you seriously suggesting a tube amp is not good for gigging? How do you figure? I don't think I've ever been to a gig where the guitarists weren't playing tube amps except maybe Metallica.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Guncho said:


> Are you seriously suggesting a tube amp is not good for gigging? How do you figure? I don't think I've ever been to a gig where the guitarists weren't playing tube amps except maybe Metallica.


Let me know where I suggested that.
As anyone on here who actually gigs regularly would understand, the lighter the better. I own several tube heads, they get used at gigs maybe 1/20 times. 
I know of guys who can bring their entire setup in a Mono gig bag. that's the smart way to do it.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

"I find it pretty funny that most are trying to recommend a tube amp as a gigging amp."

I guess the bands I pay to see value tone over portability.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Guncho said:


> "I find it pretty funny that most are trying to recommend a tube amp as a gigging amp."
> 
> I guess the bands I pay to see value tone over portability.


I'm sure they do.
I'm also sure a blanket statement like yours is completely true. Guess no one can have a good sounding rig without a tube amp!


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Are you just trying to start a tube vs solid state argument? Like the world needs another one of those.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Guncho said:


> Are you just trying to start a tube vs solid state argument? Like the world needs another one of those.


No, but you've suggested that, not I. I simply found it funny as you can get an amazing sounding rig that you can transport in a backpack now adays.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

For $600 or under? Sign me up. What is this magic backpack amp that can cut through in a loud rock environment where the drummer is hitting hard, the bass player is playing through an Ampeg SVT 8x10,the other guitarist is playing through a Fender Twin and there are no guitars in the monitors. Cause that's what I mean by gigging.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Guncho said:


> For $600 or under? Sign me up. What is this magic backpack amp that can cut through in a loud rock environment where the drummer is hitting hard, the bass player is playing through an Ampeg SVT 8x10,the other guitarist is playing through a Fender Twin and there are no guitars in the monitors. Cause that's what I mean by gigging.


"watchout, we got a badass over here." 
I want to know what bars you're gigging at where you need any sort of volume like that.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

It's not being a bad ass that's just a pretty standard setup for an original rock band. Perhaps your gigs have different requirements? There's nothing wrong with that. 

Also just because you have a 100 watt amp doesn't mean you have to put the volume at 10.

Back in the day we played The Horseshoe Tavern, El Mocambo, The 360, The Cameron House, Hard Rock Cafe and a bunch others in Toronto and BC I can't remember.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Guncho said:


> It's not being a bad ass that's just a pretty standard setup for an original rock band. Perhaps your gigs have different requirements? There's nothing wrong with that.
> 
> Also just because you have a 100 watt amp doesn't mean you have to put the volume at 10.
> 
> Back in the day we played The Horseshoe Tavern, El Mocambo, The 360, The Cameron House, Hard Rock Cafe and a bunch others in Toronto and BC I can't remember.


Back in the day. So irrelevant? 
Listen bud, I could haul around my Mesa Boogie Dual Rectifier and 4x12 cabinet, but I don't. No one does anymore to bar gigs.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

So seriously what is the amp you were talking about?

As I think I've stated repeatedly in this thread I sold my tube amp as amp sims were so good for home use so I'm not a tube snob. It's just that when I did play in bands anytime I played through a solid state amp or someone else did you just couldn't really hear them. With a tube amp you could hear them. I haven't played in bands in fourteen years maybe things have changed. That is why I started this thread. I'm totally familiar with Hot Rod Deluxes and Peavey Classics (Pearl Jam!). I just wanted to see what else was out there.

I've gotten lots of great suggestions and I think I'll just go play my Martin D-18 so thanks!

[/Thread]


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

PS I'm not your buddy guy!


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2017)

Too bad you can't get a Fender Supersonic 65 for $600.

Drummer volume and room size will decide if 20 watts or 60 watts is needed.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Guncho said:


> So seriously what is the amp you were talking about?
> 
> As I think I've stated repeatedly in this thread I sold my tube amp as amp sims were so good for home use so I'm not a tube snob. It's just that when I did play in bands anytime I played through a solid state amp or someone else did you just couldn't really hear them. With a tube amp you could hear them. I haven't played in bands in fourteen years maybe things have changed. That is why I started this thread. I'm totally familiar with Hot Rod Deluxes and Peavey Classics (Pearl Jam!). I just wanted to see what else was out there.
> 
> ...


Matrix VB800.
For more well known stuff, Line 6 Spider Valve. Peavey Vypyr Tube. All of these can be found relatively inexpensively and all I would rather take to a gig over a heavy 212. 
The other funny part of all of this, is people thinking anyone aside from themselves actually care about guitar tone. Not once have I ever heard anyone in an audience at a bar saying "oh that guitar tone is not warm enough" or "it would have sounded better with a tube amp."
No one cares.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

TDeneka said:


> "watchout, we got a badass over here."
> I want to know what bars you're gigging at where you need any sort of volume like that.


I gotta ask - what venues do you go to and what kind of music do they play?


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2017)

They care.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

TDeneka said:


> Matrix VB800.
> For more well known stuff, Line 6 Spider Valve. Peavey Vypyr Tube. All of these can be found relatively inexpensively and all I would rather take to a gig over a heavy 212.
> The other funny part of all of this, is people thinking anyone aside from themselves actually care about guitar tone. Not once have I ever heard anyone in an audience at a bar saying "oh that guitar tone is not warm enough" or "it would have sounded better with a tube amp."
> No one cares.


Wow, you could almost win a high battle of the bands with those amps.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Player99 said:


> They care.


Of course they care, they may not make it known but they'll certainly remember when you sounded terrible. Typical rookie advice.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Budda said:


> I gotta ask - what venues do you go to and what kind of music do they play?


Creed praise and worship band.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

vadsy said:


> Of course they care, they may not make it known but they'll certainly remember when you sounded terrible. Typical rookie advice.


Oh man, as if gear has anything to do with winning a battle of the bands 



Budda said:


> I gotta ask - what venues do you go to and what kind of music do they play?


Various. The guy in here isn't gigging anywhere big. Lets use something like sneeky dees for an example. Who on earth needs much power to gig there?



vadsy said:


> Creed praise and worship band.


Aww thats cute. this little guy still remembers one of the guitars I own.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

This is just getting stupid. 

Everyone should use whatever works for them.

If you're happy with a small modelling amp, you can hear yourself and people can hear you then that's great.

Personally I don't like the sound of any small modelling amp I've tried and I find they don't do the overdriven tube amp sound very well. Would everyone in the venue notice the difference? Probably not but I would and at the end of the day that's what matters to me. I wouldn't want to lug a 2x12 or 4x10 tube combo around but a 1x12 combo seems like a good compromise.

Honestly I think some people just want to fight.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2017)

If you want a great sounding amp for less than $200, try an old Peavey Bandit. They sound really good, solid state, and they sell for $100-$150 all the time.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

How about this one...

Ampli mega amp GL | Amplificateurs et pédales | Ville de Montréal | Kijiji


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

TDeneka said:


> Lets use something like sneeky dees for an example. Who on earth needs much power to gig there?


Pretty much every rock band I've ever played with there has used a 50W+ halfstack. If it's a combo it's usually a Twin, maybe a DRRI or AC30.

Sneaks is actually one of the few venues that lets us play at full volume, so...


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

You can also find some of the bigger 70s Silverface Fender amps in that price range if they've been modded or chopped into heads. I built my Vibroverb clone from a 75 Super Reverb head conversion, 73 Bassman Ten cabinet, and a 60s Jensen EM 1500. Grand total: $420. 

I just missed on a 79 Super Reverb head conversion for $500 the other day.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

capnjim said:


> How about this one...
> 
> Ampli mega amp GL | Amplificateurs et pédales | Ville de Montréal | Kijiji


That's probably mega good.


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## VHTO (Feb 19, 2016)

Have a look at the all-tube Marshall JTM 30 (1x12")-- here is one on Kijiji (not mine) Marshall JTM30 1x12" Tube Amp | Amps & Pedals | City of Toronto | Kijiji

I've had mine since ~2000 and it will more than keep up with a loud drummer/band. The nice thing about this model is that it does both Fender-like cleans with lots of headroom, yet can still be dialed in for the classic Marshall crunch. I find that I use this amp more than my 1974x.

There's an XLR output on the back as well as another jack for an extension cabinet, so there's flexibility in how you set up your stage sound.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

Guncho said:


> That's probably mega good.


I assume its mega loud, mega means a Million. So it will be loud enough for a million people to hear.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

I suppose I could always get two of them to be twice as loud.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Guncho said:


> I wouldn't want to lug a 2x12 or 4x10 tube combo around but a 1x12 combo seems like a good compromise.


Through another forum, I know a guy who opened for White Lion after their first album came out. Vito used a JCM 800 1 x12 combo, mic'd, and this guy said he sounded huge.

He also said that Mike Tramp was a jerk to the sound guy.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

White Lion lol. Once time I wrote out the lyrics to Lady of the Valley and handed them in to english class as a poem. I got an A.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Guncho said:


> I suppose I could always get two of them to be twice as loud.


Now we're talkin.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Gigging with combos, I'll continue to tolerate my stupid ol' LSS and DRRI. If I could only have a Vypyr, or jeeeez, shoot the moon and get a Spider. Ahhhh, to dream the impossible dream. Tone nirvana. Yep, I too judge amps by how many of them I can stuff in a backpack ............ LOL 

The really funny thing here is no one denigrated some of the SS choices - they are as valid as the tube choices and may be preferred by some - but one person just had to question the logic of gigging a tube amp. I have to question whether that person actually gigs or not. Or gets out to a bar and see other bands, even.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

It really depends on your gig schedule. If you're in a part-time band that plays once in a while, then sure, pack up everything you own and take it to the show - when else will you be able to use your gear in that context?

For me, playing out every other week, sometimes every week when we're busy, I just can't be bothered hauling too much gear. I went from a JTM45 with a 2x12 to a Fender Bassman combo to a Fender DRRI combo and now use a Helix. My tone is easily as good as it's ever been, if not better. But the Helix isn't a $600 solution.

For $600, I would definitely go with a Fender HRD or Traynor YCV40/50 or YCS50, or any other decent 2-channel tube amp. Anything that's cathode biased so I don't have to worry about re-biasing every time I change tubes, something that only has 3 preamp tubes and 2 power tubes, etc.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Guncho said:


> White Lion lol. Once time I wrote out the lyrics to Lady of the Valley and handed them in to english class as a poem. I got an A.


LMFAO - I did the same thing with the reprise to Rocket Queen (G'n'R), though I don't think I got an A.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Roryfan said:


> LMFAO - I did the same thing with the reprise to Rocket Queen (G'n'R), though I don't think I got an A.


I did this for Metallica's Unforgiven in grade 6. I got a few too many votes in the class and had to perform it spoken word for a school assembly.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2017)

High school english class, had to write/present a speech on any topic.
I wasn't prepared. Got called up and I recited George Carlin's 'Hair' poem. 
A+ . Teacher wasn't familiar with him.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> Gigging with combos, I'll continue to tolerate my stupid ol' LSS and DRRI. If I could only have a Vypyr, or jeeeez, shoot the moon and get a Spider. Ahhhh, to dream the impossible dream. Tone nirvana. Yep, I too judge amps by how many of them I can stuff in a backpack ............ LOL
> 
> The really funny thing here is no one denigrated some of the SS choices - they are as valid as the tube choices and may be preferred by some - but one person just had to question the logic of gigging a tube amp. I have to question whether that person actually gigs or not. Or gets out to a bar and see other bands, even.


Man you're really passive aggressive when you're whining. 
LOL.
Not once did I question the logic of gigging with a tube amp. I found it funny everyone suggested it. Clowns will be clowns.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

Player99 said:


> If you want a great sounding amp for less than $200, try an old Peavey Bandit. They sound really good, solid state, and they sell for $100-$150 all the time.


I absolutely Love the transtube Series.
Envoy and Bandit are 2 amps that everyone should have as a backup or even main gig amp


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

What about those new(ish) Blackstar tube emulation amps?


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

I’ll throw in another vote for Peavey.

I’m actually picking up a 70’s Peavey standard 260h head in an hour for $150. 130 watts and designed to be used for both guitar and bass. That’d leave about $450 for a decent cab. There’s lots of great deals on old Peavey gear.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

TDeneka said:


> Not once did I question the logic of gigging with a tube amp. I found it funny everyone suggested it. Clowns will be clowns.


Yes you did, you just didn't say it outright. Own up.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Without reading the whole thread, I'd suggest a used Traynor YCV40 or 50, preferably with the extension cab for some variety. I've had both with lots of success. Even the YCV 20 has a lot of kick and mic-ed will sound way huge. Fwiw, I like to mic the back of open back combos.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

lol


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

L&M in Edmonton has a used Boogie Mark 2 for $600. Small but heavy tube combo that should be able to keep up with your drummer and several others three towns over at the same time.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

I find 99% of the guitarists in the crowd who appear interested in gear/tone are mostly into it for a pissing contest or “I could do it better” type of convo.

It’s really nice when you meet a genuine person who is interested in actually talking about gear though. Unfortunately they’re less common these days.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

Ronbeast said:


> I find 99% of the guitarists in the crowd who appear interested in gear/tone are mostly into it for a pissing contest or “I could do it better” type of convo.


 Just point out to them that they are watching you.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

nkjanssen said:


> A friend of mine once successfully returned a White Lion CD to the store he bought it from...
> 
> "What's wrong with it?"
> 
> "It sucks!"


Yes, the good ol' days - when we had to buy music before we got to hear it. Many leaps of faith back then. Some turned out good, some not so much. Returning usually wasn't an option.


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## annuvin (Mar 24, 2017)

Budda said:


> cap job every 10-15 years, tubes every 1-3 years depending on usage, bias if your amp requires it (most modern amps don't require biasing every time you swap tubes).
> 
> Seriously, enough with the "oh watch out, tube amp upkeep is tough!" stuff - it's not. It hasn't been for a long time.


Seriously. If you find tube amp maintenance to be too troublesome, I really hope you don't own a car.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Budda said:


> Yes you did, you just didn't say it outright. Own up.


Please show me where I did. Cheers.


nkjanssen said:


> You couldn't be more wrong about this. People care. Sure, only the guitar players in the crowd will make gear-specific comments, but pretty much everyone will care whether you sound shitty or sound amazing. They probably won't know _why_ you sound shitty or amazing, but they will know and will care.


Not really true at all. People care more about the performance, not the tone. 
Also, we aren't saying something that sounds shitty vs something that sounds great isn't going to be apparent; of course it will be. 
Guitar players trick themselves to thinking that they have to gig with something like a tube combo in order to play well or sound good. It really isn't the case.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

TDeneka said:


> I find it pretty funny that most are trying to recommend a tube amp as a gigging amp.


And how would you reword that? Because everyone here is reading "Suggesting a tube amp as a gigging amp is a dumb suggestion."

It's got the same connotation as "I find it funny that you think the earth is flat." - it is saying "I think you're stupid" without actually having the guts to use the exact words. "Isn't it weird that you're the only one who..." has the same effect as "you're stupid for thinking that..."

You can pretend like it isn't but unfortunately connotations and implied meanings are in fact real.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Budda said:


> *And how would you reword that? Because everyone here is reading "Suggesting a tube amp as a gigging amp is a dumb suggestion."*
> 
> It's got the same connotation as "I find it funny that you think the earth is flat." - it is saying "I think you're stupid" without actually having the guts to use the exact words. "Isn't it weird that you're the only one who..." has the same effect as "you're stupid for thinking that..."
> 
> You can pretend like it isn't but unfortunately connotations and implied meanings are in fact real.


I took it as "You don't necessarily need a tube amp". With the array of equipment available today, do you really need a tube amp for gigging purposes?


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

High/Deaf said:


> Yes, the good ol' days - when we had to buy music before we got to hear it. Many leaps of faith back then. Some turned out good, some not so much. Returning usually wasn't an option.


I used to really like White Lion. Vito's playing still holds up. Mike Tramp on the other hand.....


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> With the array of equipment available today, do you really need a tube amp for gigging purposes?


In this time for live music, do you really need to be gigging?


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

I think TdDeneka presented it in the wrong way but I get his point. If the "gigs" you are playing are the local watering hole where people just want to hear some reasonable facsimile of the songs from their youth and drink,then why lug heavy gear down when they are too busy talking to really care if you sound great or ok. 

What he's missing is that is not everyone's "gigs". If your "gigs" are where people are actually there specifically to see you and paid to see you then I say you make the extra effort.

Right tool for the job and all that.

Just like if a hockey player was going to play a game of shinny he's probably not going to bring his $2000 graphite composite stick.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

djmarcelca said:


> I absolutely Love the transtube Series.
> Envoy and Bandit are 2 amps that everyone should have as a backup or even main gig amp


I regularly gig with a guy. He's a really experienced player. Been playing bar gigs and touring since the early 70s. Every night he sets his little 1x10 trans tube combo down beside my vintage Fender tube amp. He plugs in his cheap boss multifx board and proceeds to blow me out of the water with his tone.

The only time I start to sound better than him is when we get really distorted. His amp doesn't do very crunchy distortion very well. It gets very digital and grainy sounding.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

cboutilier said:


> I regularly gig with a guy. He's a really experienced player. Been playing bar gigs and touring since the early 70s. Every night he sets his little 1x10 trans tube combo down beside my vintage Fender tube amp. He plugs in his cheap boss multifx board and proceeds to blow me out of the water with his tone.
> 
> The only time I start to sound better than him is when we get really distorted. His amp doesn't do very crunchy distortion very well. It gets very digital and grainy sounding.


Depending on the TransTube model this is very true. 

The first Generation Envot/Bandit were really digital sounding when choosing the "Thrash" distortion mode, but the second generations (Around 1999) sounded really nice when cranked and the regular overdrive is set up. 

Of course anyone could avoid this entirely by just choosing the clean channel and simply using a O.D and distortion pedal either through the front or the FX loop


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Guncho said:


> I think TdDeneka presented it in the wrong way but I get his point.


I can't be bothered wasting my time trying to interpret something in some way that probably wasn't meant to be interpreted that way anyways.

IMO, it was one of two things:
1) he's not so good at writing, has trouble expressing his ideas and is easily misunderstood
2) he's a troll and likes to stir up shit

I've read this guy's stuff before. I'm going with a hard 2). YMMV


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Strange that I'm defending him but it makes sense.

If I have two rigs. One is light and easily portable, doesn't sound amazing but decent and the other is heavy and not easily portable but sounds amazing are you going to take the same one to a fun jam in your buddies garage vs a gig you are headling and people are buying tickets to?


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

theres lots of good amps sub-$600...
Paul plays Marhsall amps...so you could get a DSL50 which are like 5-600 on the used market
i have a traynor YCS50H that does the sound alright..selling it...if you're interested...its below 600


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

The moment has passed. An ex drummer contacted me and said they were looking for another guitarist so I briefly contemplated what I would need to play electric again but I have no desire to play gigs or be in a band.

Starting to think about a small tube amp and a tele for home though!

Anyone ever tried one of these? Looks sweet.

*Jim Adkins JA-90 Telecaster Thinline*
*







*


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

nkjanssen said:


> You couldn't be more wrong about this. People care. Sure, only the guitar players in the crowd will make gear-specific comments, but pretty much everyone will care whether you sound shitty or sound amazing. They probably won't know _why_ you sound shitty or amazing, but they will know and will care.


Sure, but the comment was that most won't care about guitar tone in terms of agonizing over every little nuance of amp setup, etc. - and that's 100% true. The assumption that someone who may not be into a specific type of amp is also someone who doesn't care about tone/has bad tone/intentionally dials in their gear to sound like ass/etc. is a pretty big jump. You can go an alternative route to tube amps and still sound good. 

Does that average bar patron care that you have Genelex tubes in your JTM45? Or that you have a Blackface-circuit Fender? Not a chance. They may know what sounds good, but they don't know or care enough to be interested in what's making those sounds. It could be a Peavey Bandit or a original Silver Jubilee.

Also, there's a HUGE difference between a nice, fat, warm sounding guitar tone that sounds incredible by itself and a guitar tone that sounds good in a band. Just try using that warm, fat tone in a live mix and watch your guitar disappear right into the middle of the mix. An ear for tone is not just the ability to dial in a great guitar tone, it's also being able to compromise on some things so that your guitar sounds great _with_ the band.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Budda said:


> In this time for live music, do you really need to be gigging?


Sorry, Budda, but I don't understand your point. Isn't gigging live music. Maybe I'm just thick headed.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> Sorry, Budda, but I don't understand your point. Isn't gigging live music. Maybe I'm just thick headed.


Im saying if the pay is crap or nonexistent and no one cares about what you're trying to do, why gig at all? You're better off with a roland cube at home than playing to no one in a dive bar with a tube amp, no?


----------



## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Budda said:


> Im saying if the pay is crap or nonexistent and no one cares about what you're trying to do, why gig at all? You're better off with a roland cube at home than playing to no one in a dive bar with a tube amp, no?


Why bother touring then?


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

sulphur said:


> Why bother touring then?


Exactly.

I know why I bother.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

nkjanssen said:


> Except he didn't say "I can get just as good a tone with a solid state amp." He said "The other funny part of all of this, is people thinking anyone aside from themselves actually care about guitar tone." The former statement is highly subjective, depends on a lot of factors and would be hard to take issue with. The latter statement (i.e. what was actually said) is patently false.


I dunno. I agree that most don't care about individual instrument sounds. I've never had a person come up and say "dude, your _guitar _sounded amazing!" who wasn't also a guitarist, but I hear comments like "your _band _is amazing" all the time. I could show up with a practice amp and a Squier and I'm pretty sure it would be just as good as show as we normally do. Even with the main rig, I'm hauling around Japanese LP copies - it's not like I'm swinging around an R9 on stage - there's a point of diminishing returns.

I also think it's funny that @TDeneka literally said "I'm also sure a blanket statement like yours is completely true. Guess no one can have a good sounding rig without a tube amp!" and people are jumping on him for _not _saying "I can get just as good a tone with a solid state amp." I don't know about the rest of you, but I definitely recognized in the initial comment that he was implying non-tube options could be as good. It seems like people just assumed a non-tube option would either A) sound bad, or B) be made to specifically sound bad. What's the point of that? It's all a matter of knowing your gear. There are plenty of pro players that I've seen who have very small rigs compared to what I haul and have great tone! It could be tube, SS, modeling, whatever - if you're familiar with it and have a decent ear, you can make it sound good. 

And seriously, in a live mix, no one's going to notice the kind of minutiae that we're talking about here. Given a SS rig and a tube rig, both dialed-in well so that they sound good - there's no way you'd tell the difference in a loud, live mix.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Maybe the audience can't tell but I can tell and that's really at the end of the day my most important criteria.

Tube amp I can hear myself.
Solid state amp I can't hear myself

This is very dependent on, the type of music being played, what amps the other guitarist and bassist have and how loud the drummer plays. Also assuming there are no guitars in the monitors.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Budda said:


> Im saying *if the pay is crap or nonexistent and no one cares* about what you're trying to do, why gig at all? You're better off with a roland cube at home than playing to no one in a dive bar with a tube amp, no?


Only an idiot would continue gigging under those circumstances. 




sulphur said:


> Why bother touring then?


That thought crossed my mind as well but I think Budda plays where people come to listen.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Guncho said:


> Maybe the audience can't tell but I can tell and that's really at the end of the day my most important criteria.
> 
> _*Tube amp I can hear myself.
> Solid state amp I can't hear myself*_


Really? I have never heard of that before. I would respectfully like to ask if you would explain how that works.


----------



## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Budda said:


> And how would you reword that? Because everyone here is reading "Suggesting a tube amp as a gigging amp is a dumb suggestion."
> 
> It's got the same connotation as "I find it funny that you think the earth is flat." - it is saying "I think you're stupid" without actually having the guts to use the exact words. "Isn't it weird that you're the only one who..." has the same effect as "you're stupid for thinking that..."
> 
> You can pretend like it isn't but unfortunately connotations and implied meanings are in fact real.


Not everyone read it like that. For example, hollowbody didn't read it like that. I also find funny your use of such blanket statements. 
People just read what they wanted to hear and made assumptions.


High/Deaf said:


> I can't be bothered wasting my time trying to interpret something in some way that probably wasn't meant to be interpreted that way anyways.
> 
> IMO, it was one of two things:
> 1) he's not so good at writing, has trouble expressing his ideas and is easily misunderstood
> ...


If you could read more advanced than


Guncho said:


> Strange that I'm defending him but it makes sense.
> 
> If I have two rigs. One is light and easily portable, doesn't sound amazing but decent and the other is heavy and not easily portable but sounds amazing are you going to take the same one to a fun jam in your buddies garage vs a gig you are headling and people are buying tickets to?


We obviously got off on the wrong foot, but I'm glad you can see the intention of the original post. cheers.

a grade two level, none of what I posted would be an issue for you. But alas...



hollowbody said:


> I dunno. I agree that most don't care about individual instrument sounds. I've never had a person come up and say "dude, your _guitar _sounded amazing!" who wasn't also a guitarist, but I hear comments like "your _band _is amazing" all the time. I could show up with a practice amp and a Squier and I'm pretty sure it would be just as good as show as we normally do. Even with the main rig, I'm hauling around Japanese LP copies - it's not like I'm swinging around an R9 on stage - there's a point of diminishing returns.
> 
> I also think it's funny that @TDeneka literally said "I'm also sure a blanket statement like yours is completely true. Guess no one can have a good sounding rig without a tube amp!" and people are jumping on him for _not _saying "I can get just as good a tone with a solid state amp." I don't know about the rest of you, but I definitely recognized in the initial comment that he was implying non-tube options could be as good. It seems like people just assumed a non-tube option would either A) sound bad, or B) be made to specifically sound bad. What's the point of that? It's all a matter of knowing your gear. There are plenty of pro players that I've seen who have very small rigs compared to what I haul and have great tone! It could be tube, SS, modeling, whatever - if you're familiar with it and have a decent ear, you can make it sound good.
> 
> And seriously, in a live mix, no one's going to notice the kind of minutiae that we're talking about here. Given a SS rig and a tube rig, both dialed-in well so that they sound good - there's no way you'd tell the difference in a loud, live mix.


Thank you for having reading comprehension. You last sentence is going to cause a lot of drama I feel too. "I CAN TELL THE DIFFERENCE!!!"


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Guncho said:


> Maybe the audience can't tell but I can tell and that's really at the end of the day my most important criteria.
> 
> Tube amp I can hear myself.
> Solid state amp I can't hear myself
> ...





Steadfastly said:


> Really? I have never heard of that before. I would respectfully like to ask if you would explain how that works.


Unless we're talking about a lack of headroom, if both amps are capable of the same SPL, I don't see how this works either. Maybe we're talking SS practice amps vs honest-to-goodness gig-worthy tube amps? 

But hey, I love gear as much as the next person, so if I was looking at getting an amp again, it would be a tube amp for sure - I'm a big believer in owning gear that makes you WANT to play - but right now I don't even _own_ an amp!


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

hollowbody said:


> Unless we're talking about a lack of headroom, if both amps are capable of the same SPL, I don't see how this works either.


The problem is amps are not rated by SPL, they're rated in Watts. A 30W solid state amp and a 30W watt tube amp have the same rating but will likely produce significantly different volume-even through the same cabinet!


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

gtrguy said:


> The problem is amps are not rated by SPL, they're rated in Watts. A 30W solid state amp and a 30W watt tube amp have the same rating but will likely produce significantly different volume-even through the same cabinet!


That's a topology thing more than anything. SS clips differently than tube, so tube amps can be driven harder. Taking that out of the equation, because that's a whole 'nuther can of worms, if you have two amps - one SS and one tube - and both are set up so they're putting out signals of the same SPL, then I don't see how you can hear one better than the other.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

I can't explain it technically but when I played in loud rock bands you could hear a solid state amp but it wasn't very clear. Kind of washed out. While a tube amp was punchy and clear.

Does that make sense?

This went for bass as well.

Like I'm talking playing Pearl Jam's Evenflow at full volume in a small room. Not blues, jazz, etc.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Guncho said:


> I can't explain it technically but when I played in loud rock bands you could hear a solid state amp but it wasn't very clear. Kind of washed out. While a tube amp was punchy and clear.
> 
> Does that make sense?
> 
> ...


I get exactly what you're saying, I guess I just don't understand _why_ that would happen, yknow? Maybe we need an electrical engineer to hop in and give us some info!

I had a little bit of a mental block regarding not having an amp on stage with me when I switched to the Helix. I had plenty of guitar in the monitor, but it was _different_, so I didn't like it. Took a while to get used to and I still prefer having an amp on stage with me (even if it's a keyboard amp that I'm running my Helix into), but it's not as much of a problem now. I think in this regard, the issue was I'm used to hearing vocals from in front and guitar from behind me. Hearing both from in front was just...wrong


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

nkjanssen said:


> I have... literally, that exact phrase. "Dude, your guitar sounds amazing! What kind of guitar is that?!" It was a standard Fender Tele. The guy knew nothing about guitars. It did sound great, though, largely because of the rig I was playing through - Fulltone Fulldrive into a Maz 38NR, turned up loud enough to get the tubes cooking (which incidentally is a magical combination). He had no idea why it sounded great, but he did notice and it apparently made an impact. I've had many others comment similarly subsequent to that. Would that guy have made the same comment if I'd been playing through a Vox Valvetronix? Maybe, but I doubt it. Bottom line... whatever rig it was, I was doing my best to make it sound as good as possible and people noticed. *It boggles my mind that everybody playing live wouldn't have enough pride in their presentation to try to achieve the same.*


Don't get me wrong - I agonize over tone all the time. My wife will attest to how much time I spend creating, editing and perfecting my patches! I'm just saying that it's rare for me to hear someone say anything specifically about my guitar tone who isn't also a player. I get lots of "d00d, that solo was amazing" kinda stuff, but that's different. 

Maybe it's cuz I'm not playing a tube amp?? %h(*&


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2017)

IMO, it's how you dial it in.
I once auditioned for a local band the same time as a new bassist.
I brought my 80's ss Marshall 5275 112 combo. 
The band leader was playing through a Line 6 Pod X3 Live plugged into a Mesa Boogie triple rec/412 cab.
After a few songs, the bassist asked me how is it that my sound is better.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

TDeneka said:


> Not everyone read it like that. For example, hollowbody didn't read it like that. I also find funny your use of such blanket statements.
> People just read what they wanted to hear and made assumptions.


I read it like that, and you didn't do a good job of explaining in the first place if there's a wide margin for error for the people reading your post.

Please stop acting high and mighty in this conversation, it's not a good look.

The fact of the matter is that there a bunch of good amps available at $600 on the used market, which will do what the OP wants. If he has more fun playing a Tech 21 Trademark 60 instead of a Peavey Classic 30, I'm going to congratulate him on his purchase not slag him for not having tubes. 

I don't give a shit what anyone here uses. I give a shit if you actually make music and if it connects with people.

And I'm still impressed that you think "I find it funny that..." will clear you of whatever follows. I took a few psychology classes, I have an inkling as to how the wording works


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> Only an idiot would continue gigging under those circumstances.


Thankfully usually people a) care or b) you get paid, and sometimes both happen at once.


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2017)

Budda said:


> Thankfully usually people a) care or b) you get paid, and sometimes both happen at once.


I played a CanDay party.
a) yes
b) no
Unless 'b)' means getting fed (unlimited) and having a great time.
Lookin' forward to next summer to do it again.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

laristotle said:


> I played a CanDay party.
> a) yes
> b) no
> Unless 'b)' means getting fed (unlimited) and having a great time.
> Lookin' forward to next summer to do it again.


Food can definitely become equivalent to money, especially if you were going to have to spend money to eat anyway. That's one of the many reasons I love playing Atlanta - buyout or catering.


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

I don’t even care what people play these days. Both tube and solid state technology have come such a long way, especially in the last 20 years, that I think this endless arguing and bickering over this stuff is a logical fallacy. There’s no point in this crap anymore, and it should be put to rest.

The things that piss me off the most? People who don’t know how to EQ their amps to work in a band setting. I know players who sound great through solid state amps, and players who can’t eq a tube amp worth a f*ck. I have to sit down with them and explain why extreme warmth doesn’t always work in a 4 piece band setting with heavy bass.

I also know guys who can make SS amps sing; but the vast majority of people turn the treble up to ear splitting levels of shrillness.

Really it’s not a case of “this has tubes; this doesn’t have tubes” it’s a case of “Do I know what my equipment is capable of and do I know how to eq the damn thing to work in a band setting”. And for the record, if you can’t hear yourself in a band setting, you’re fighting at least one of your band mates for the same frequencies... welcome to the volume war.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Budda said:


> I read it like that, and you didn't do a good job of explaining in the first place if there's a wide margin for error for the people reading your post.
> 
> Please stop acting high and mighty in this conversation, it's not a good look.
> 
> ...


If you think that I am acting "high and mighty", then I seriously doubt you have an "inkling as to how the wording works."

Cheers.


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## Gene Machine (Sep 22, 2007)

I recently sold my tube amps, because I couldn’t find a tone I liked and went with a silver stripe trans tube Bandit. It has tons of volume, easy to get a good tone, tough as nails, and $150.

If you really want tube, I recommend renting a ycv40 traynor this Saturday for half price day. They have lots of volume, great tone, and you can always add an extension cab to push more air if req’d. Won’t break the bank, used should be $400


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

TDeneka said:


> If you think that I am acting "high and mighty", then I seriously doubt you have an "inkling as to how the wording works."
> 
> Cheers.


Read your posts again. Do you notice theres not a lot of people jumping to take up your side?


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Budda said:


> Read your posts again. Do you notice theres not a lot of people jumping to take up your side?


There are a few actually. 
That also is irrelevant to what you said, as taking sides should be a matter of opinion on a subject, not opinion of oneself. 
You took some psych courses, you should know this.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Ronbeast said:


> I don’t even care what people play these days. Both tube and solid state technology have come such a long way, especially in the last 20 years, that I think this endless arguing and bickering over this stuff is a logical fallacy. There’s no point in this crap anymore, and it should be put to rest.


Heartily agreed. Some of you remember the amp thread at Harmony Central. It was terrible. I stopped looking in there because of the egoists and the bickering.

I think the biggest thing between tube amps and SS amps is the power. Would you agree that is true? I was blown away by how loud my first tube amp (5W) was.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Guncho said:


> *I can't explain it technically *but when I played in loud rock bands you could hear a solid state amp but it wasn't very clear. Kind of washed out. While a tube amp was punchy and clear.
> 
> Does that make sense?
> 
> ...


Maybe you have tube ears?

Seriously, though, I would like to try a comparison to see if I hear the same thing. Maybe one day, I'll get the chance.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Ronbeast said:


> I don’t even care what people play these days. Both tube and solid state technology have come such a long way, especially in the last 20 years, that I think this endless arguing and bickering over this stuff is a logical fallacy. There’s no point in this crap anymore, and it should be put to rest.
> 
> The things that piss me off the most? People who don’t know how to EQ their amps to work in a band setting. I know players who sound great through solid state amps, and players who can’t eq a tube amp worth a f*ck. I have to sit down with them and explain why extreme warmth doesn’t always work in a 4 piece band setting with heavy bass.
> 
> ...


That's a bigger issue than what you use - how you use it. 

I've had compliments from guitar players on my tone, specifically. I've also had bar patrons, in various states of inebriation, compliment me on something, might have been the guitar tone or the singing or the band - sometimes it's hard to tell, they're just enthusiastic. 

For the most part, most patrons don't really care _how_ good your sound is. But they notice if your sound is bad - again either guitar tone or singing or the band in general. 

Not that long ago, I was gigging at a pub and someone else was going to play a couple songs after we finished our first set. The g/f of a guy I was sitting and talking to asked me to go up and ask the guy to stop doing what he was doing. We were hearing this high, piercing sound that was very annoying, even to a non-musician - maybe especially to a non-musician because she was less tolerant of those noises we make while setting up. At that point, I notice the guy had plugged into my rig and not the other guitar player's. I just assume since the other guitar player asked the guy up, the guy would use his rig. But it was a Mesa and the guy spun every knob on it, with no idea what he was doing (it bugged me because I spend the first few songs dialing it into the mix - not always a quick thing - and he gave me no opportunity to take a pic of my settings before he screwed them all up). 

So good gear, in the hands of someone who had not clue on how to dial it in, and even the patrons were noticing had bad it sounded. Taking a bit of pride in my tone is a worth-while endeavor. I don't gig that often, so taking a 50 lb amp is no big deal to me. If I'd known I was hosting a backline for a few songs, I would have probably brought a different amp, either my DRRI or TA15. Both are hard to get a bad sound out of. But with the LSS, it's got enough tonal range that, yea, you can ice pick someone to death at 50 meters. No one wants that.


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## Jeewiz (Feb 8, 2014)

Gene Machine said:


> If you really want tube, I recommend renting a ycv40 traynor this Saturday for half price day. They have lots of volume, great tone, and you can always add an extension cab to push more air if req’d. Won’t break the bank, used should be $400


Although lots of options for tube amps have been mentioned, my vote goes with Gene’s suggestion above. Ycv40 - 1 x 12 combo; not overly heavy, great clean and dirty channels.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Interesting comparison.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

Guncho said:


> Interesting comparison.


Well, I guess tone really is subjective. I found all those tones sounded farty and crappy.
Not one sound there you can't get with a 50$ cheapo best buy amp.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

High/Deaf said:


> That's a bigger issue than what you use - how you use it.
> 
> So good gear, in the hands of someone who had not clue on how to dial it in, and even the patrons were noticing had bad it sounded. Taking a bit of pride in my tone is a worth-while endeavor. I don't gig that often, so taking a 50 lb amp is no big deal to me. If I'd known I was hosting a backline for a few songs, I would have probably brought a different amp, either my DRRI or TA15. Both are hard to get a bad sound out of. But with the LSS, it's got enough tonal range that, yea, you can ice pick someone to death at 50 meters. No one wants that.


I was in a band with another guitarist for a while who couldn't dial-in a decent tone to save his life. It was always this muddy sludge of crap that barely sounded like guitar. I couldn't believe it. Turns out he had no idea how to dial in his amp and basically never played with any of the knobs! 

The #1 thing for me is familiarity with your gear. The biggest show of restrain I ever exhibit is when I get a new piece of gear and immediately want to use it on-stage. As much fun as it would be, I'm not going to test drive a new pedal, guitar, amp, whatever at a gig where I'm being paid to provide entertainment of a specific type and quality. I can't risk having something sounding off, going wonky, etc. and not having the knowledge and experience to know how to make an adjustment on-the-fly with a piece of gear that's unfamiliar to me.



High/Deaf said:


> For the most part, most patrons don't really care _how_ good your sound is. But they notice if your sound is bad - again either guitar tone or singing or the band in general.


Couldn't agree more. Odds are good no one will be able to shout-out in-between songs "hey, you guys need to turn down the 8khz in the mix!" or "the guitar and keyboards are occupying the same frequency range!" but they'll know something is up and that things don't sound the way they expect based on hearing other concerts, albums, etc.


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2017)

hollowbody said:


> shout-out in-between songs ............. but they'll know something is up and that things don't sound the way they expect based on hearing other concerts, albums, etc.


You suck!


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## grumpyoldman (Jan 31, 2010)

laristotle said:


> You suck!


That was you??

John
thegrumpyoldman


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

hollowbody said:


> I was in a band with another guitarist for a while who couldn't dial-in a decent tone to save his life. It was always this muddy sludge of crap that barely sounded like guitar. I couldn't believe it. Turns out he had no idea how to dial in his amp and basically never played with any of the knobs!


I can relate. I played with a guy once who used too much reverb - all the time. May sound great at home on your own but really hard to fit in the mix with all that temporal overhang and wash.

The worst part was, I take guitar tone as a very personal thing. I kind of hinted a couple of times about trying a few things differently but I didn't have the balls to outright tell him to turn the 'verb down. I assumed he would take it personally just like I do when someone criticizes my tone. It was too bad, because he's a great player and singer. He either wasn't interested in trying different things or didn't know what a problem it was, because he wasn't involved in the PA.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

laristotle said:


> You suck!


There's a cause (and solution) for that ............


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

laristotle said:


> You suck!


Lol. I’d rather hear that than “FREEEEEEBIIIIIIIRD”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

hollowbody said:


> Lol. I’d rather hear that than “FREEEEEEBIIIIIIIRD”
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


That's usually what I yell.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

High/Deaf said:


> He either wasn't interested in trying different things or didn't know what a problem it was, because he wasn't involved in the PA.


This. 

If you can’t understand that you’re part of a soundscape with other instruments all sharing the same space, it’s hard to sound good. 



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

hollowbody said:


> I was in a band with another guitarist for a while who couldn't dial-in a decent tone to save his life. It was always this muddy sludge of crap that barely sounded like guitar. I couldn't believe it. Turns out he had no idea how to dial in his amp and basically never played with any of the knobs!
> 
> The #1 thing for me is familiarity with your gear. The biggest show of restrain I ever exhibit is when I get a new piece of gear and immediately want to use it on-stage. As much fun as it would be, I'm not going to test drive a new pedal, guitar, amp, whatever at a gig where I'm being paid to provide entertainment of a specific type and quality. I can't risk having something sounding off, going wonky, etc. and not having the knowledge and experience to know how to make an adjustment on-the-fly with a piece of gear that's unfamiliar to me.
> 
> ...


I was "that guy" once.
The problem for me, was I didn't get enough time to fiddle with knobs at _gigging volumes_ and in a similar enough room space as where a gig was. I sounded fine at jam volumes, but in a gig, my sound was ridiculously over gained, and out of control. I'll never forget one particularly embarrassing show where I had feedback issues in the middle of a solo when I switched to a high gain channel. Ugh.
It's taken a lot of years for me to lower the gain.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I think pauls boutique has a cube 60 for under $300. Might be gone already though.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Diablo said:


> I was "that guy" once.
> The problem for me, was I didn't get enough time to fiddle with knobs at _gigging volumes_ and in a similar enough room space as where a gig was. I sounded fine at jam volumes, but in a gig, my sound was ridiculously over gained, and out of control. I'll never forget one particularly embarrassing show where I had feedback issues in the middle of a solo when I switched to a high gain channel. Ugh.
> It's taken a lot of years for me to lower the gain.


I used to hide sloppy playing behind distortion as well. If I'm being totally honest, I still do! But yeah, things change a LOT when you open your amp up to gig volumes. But hey, at least you had a bad experience and took it as a learning moment. I've known people who makes the same mistakes over and over again without changing a thing - or even _knowing_ that something is wrong!


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

I used to go to our jam room alone for hours and just fiddle with the amp at gig volumes til it was dialed in.

I had kind of a backwards setup. I would set the overdrive channel on my amp up to the loudest crunchiest rhythm sound I would need then I would use a volume pedal to back it off to a normal verse overdrive sound. For solos I would kick in an MXR Microamp.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

I've seen used Fender Deville's (not the hot rod series) go for $300. Pocket the rest and your good to go.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

butterknucket said:


> I've seen used Fender Deville's (not the hot rod series) go for $300. Pocket the rest and your good to go.


True. Great clean amp and pedal platform. The nice thing about it is you can use it outside of the studio to help the local demolition companies level small buildings without the use of heavy machinery.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Guncho said:


> I used to go to our jam room alone for hours and just fiddle with the amp at gig volumes til it was dialed in.
> 
> I had kind of a backwards setup. I would set the overdrive channel on my amp up to the loudest crunchiest rhythm sound I would need then I would use a volume pedal to back it off to a normal verse overdrive sound. For solos I would kick in an MXR Microamp.


how did you know what gig volume is?


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

I just turned it up til it felt gooooodddddd.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Seriously though gig volume for us was the same as jam volume. At our level of gigging there were no drums in the monitors so you could only turn up to a certain point and then you wouldn't be able to hear the drums anymore.

As I was in our jam room I had a pretty good idea of what that level was.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

nkjanssen said:


> You couldn't be more wrong about this. People care. Sure, only the guitar players in the crowd will make gear-specific comments, but pretty much everyone will care whether you sound shitty or sound amazing. They probably won't know _why_ you sound shitty or amazing, but they will know and will care.


Saw a band on the weekend. On it's own the guitar sounded awful. When she spoke, the singers vocals sounded like they came from a Tannoy. Whe the drums and bass kicked in somehow everything sat well in the mix ........................ go figure


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Guncho said:


> Maybe the audience can't tell but I can tell and that's really at the end of the day my most important criteria.
> 
> Tube amp I can hear myself.
> Solid state amp I can't hear myself
> ...


Close. 

I might add that If I'm happy with my tone then it comes through in my playing and the look on my face - and that turns into a good performance that the crowd can see and feel.

Alternatively, it's really hard to fake a good time when you're unhappy with your gear, or are sick and tired of the song you're playing ................. or the drummer just stole your girl............


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2017)

allthumbs56 said:


> Alternatively, it's really hard to fake a good time when you're unhappy with your gear,
> or are sick and tired of the song you're playing ................. or the drummer just stole your girl........


or pissed off by another band mate ....


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

What bad movie is that?

Does that guy have a magic voice and doesn't need a microphone?


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Speaking of bands not getting along...


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

vadsy said:


> True. Great clean amp and pedal platform. The nice thing about it is you can use it outside of the studio to help the local demolition companies level small buildings without the use of heavy machinery.


I had a Hot Rod Deluxe in the 90's and it was stupid loud.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

butterknucket said:


> I had a Hot Rod Deluxe in the 90's and it was stupid loud.


Absolutely. I don't remember the exact revision I had but it was one of the loudest amps I've played through.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2017)

Guncho said:


> What bad movie is that?


I found it entertaining.


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

laristotle said:


> I found it entertaining.


+1 there’s some interesting takes on classic Beatles tunes in there. It’s actually not a bad movie, worth a watch if you get a chance.


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