# Tube Quality These Days: What to do?



## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

I owned many good tube amps in the '70's and '80's. Back then if there was a problem I took it in and the tech just repaired or changed the offending tube. Tubes were better back then and even today most people try to keep a vintage tube as long as possible.

Fast forward to today:

1) My only vintage amp is fully retubed with JJ's and all work was done by Dean Zink. Just an awesome YGM3.

2) My 2003 Relic Blues Junior still has all it's original tubes, and sounds stellar when played clean, or just a hair added.

3) My 2012 Dr. Z Maz18R was bought used a little over a year ago. It has been an astounding amp up until about a month ago. It is still plenty loud, but has lost it's sparkle with single coils and sounds duller. Anything through the effects loop is duller/muted. My Les Paul sounds duller.


I know Dr. Z builds his amps to work with specific recommended tubes. I have also read that todays tubes don't last very long.


So the question is: Buy the complete recommended selection of OE style tubes and install, or try to find the offending tube(s), and just replace them.


What is the right approach to refreshing a contemporary tube amp these days?


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## Judas68fr (Feb 5, 2013)

It's probably just the power tubes that need to be replaced. Nothing surprising after 3 years! 

Sometimes, with tubes, tone is degrading, but because it's happening progressively, you don't necessarily realize it. Then you start having real issues (cracking noises, loss of dynamic), just like you experience on the Maz 18. You can really drastically decrease tubes life if you bump your amp while it's still hot.

A question for you: how do you compare your old Blues Junior to your Maz 18? I'm thinking about replacing my Junior (1st generation, with some BillM mods, a new speaker and an upgraded output transformer), and the Maz 18 looks like the best candidate..


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

The Dr. Z is a beast of an amp when it is in spec. Most who have heard it, do that double take kind of thing and express something like: "Did that amp just do that?!?!" I have to admit that awesome guitar + awesome amp = awesome noise. Good management of the guitar and amp with skilled playing = priceless.

The Relic Blues Jr. is an amp that BillM. doesn't like at all as delivered by Fender. He absolutely hates the Jensen P12R speaker. He calls it kazoo like, and a '50's radio speaker. I respect BillM., his knowledge, and expertise. But in this case he is wrong. In an unmodified amp, full master volume, clean, using a Strat or Tele, there is a vibe that just can't be beat. Add the Fat button, or dime the tone stack, blend the right amount of reverb; I hear '50's/'60's sound that comes from vintage type amps. That Jensen speaker does some mojo when used like this.

BillM. alters the tone stack, boosts the bottom end, etc., etc., until it becomes another amp with 6L6 tubes and 30 watts. Of course you need another speaker. He is a genius who can work wonders. He just doesn't like the Blues Jr. for what it is. My Relic amp in particular does that early era of music with ease as delivered from Fender.

I have tried several good speakers and it just ruins the vibe and mojo that I have become accustom to. Changing to another speaker adds several pounds to the amp. My amp weighs something like 27 pounds. A BillM. amp weighs in at 35 pounds or more.

I have given the BillM. mods full consideration, I also thought about the larger enclosures, dual speakers, etc. This could all wind up weighing almost 50 pounds, and the outcome is a gamble.

I left well enough alone, and spent the money on another amp; the Dr. Z. 

If you want the amp to be different; how much different? Like a different amp? Buy another amp you like. That makes sense to me. You see many modified BillM. Blues Jr. amps for sale in the U.S., inexpensive.

Do you like your Blues Jr.? If you do, and think a few mods will help, go for it. But, it won't make it a Dr. Z.

I bought my Dr. Z for what it would cost me to buy a used Blues Jr. and do the full mods up to EL84 best scenario BillM. mods. You can go insanely beyond.

I also think that my Blues Jr. Relic sounds better than many amps in the $500 category, unless you are extremely lucky on a used purchase.

Good luck with our quest.


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

Back to the original topic.

All of my tube amps have EL84 tubes in them, so I decided to play musical tubes and see if the end result was a more musical result.

I pulled the JJ's from the YGM3 and put them in the Maz18R. The result is everything was brighter with the return of chime. I am still wondering about the one Sovtek 12AX7LPS, that is closest to the power tubes. It is the one that shows no light, but gives off the same amount of heat as the others. 

I took the EL84 tubes (a Sovtek EL84/6BQ5 and an Electo-harmonix EL84EH), and put them in the YGM3. The result was only slightly darker, still chimey (surprise), and still plenty loud. The tubes seem to light up differently in both amps.

I was using both, my 2012 American Deluxe Telecaster and my American Special Strat with HSS Lace pickups.

I guess that I have to decide whether to buy a complete set of OE tubes for the Dr. Z, or buy several different matched sets of EL84's to try.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Not sure exactly what you mean by "lights up", there are a few ways for tubes to do so.
First is the heaters, which is the little orange dots of light near the tube base. Generally 1 per power tube, or 2 per preamp tube ex.12AX7. These will be lit whenever power is on, even on standby. Some heaters are a little below the base and very hard to see. If you can't see them but the tube feels warm, they are working. They should be easier to see in the dark.
There can also be a blue "glow" that appears around the outside of the bottle. This will pulse depending on signal, and will vary depending on the amount of high voltage. So the same tube may have more or less blue glow in different amps. The blue glow is normal and nothing to worry about.
The thing to worry about is "red-plating" where the large metal plate structure turns orange or red. This is either bias failure or a very bad tube and the tube is burning up. Turn off power immediately if you ever see this.


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

The other issue that occurs from time to time with the Maz is some contact oxidation in the effects loop, try a little deoxit on a 1/4 guitar cable and plug it in and out about 10 times in both the in and out of the effects loop.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

It and just about every other amp with an FX loop....



zdogma said:


> The other issue that occurs from time to time with the Maz is some contact oxidation in the effects loop, try a little deoxit on a 1/4 guitar cable and plug it in and out about 10 times in both the in and out of the effects loop.


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## switters (Dec 19, 2011)

I had a Maz 38 that really liked to burn up PI tubes as well ...... If the amp started acting wonky, before going through the power tubes, I'd just toss any old 12AX7 into the PI spot and see if it came back to life..........


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

switters said:


> I had a Maz 38 that really liked to burn up PI tubes as well ...... If the amp started acting wonky, before going through the power tubes, I'd just toss any old 12AX7 into the PI spot and see if it came back to life..........


Thanks for the thought. I did that and saw no difference. I also read everything that I could find on Ztalk. The consensus there was a PI tube effects most of the overdriven effect, as well as other important tonal criteria.
The Sovtek 12AX7LPS was specifically chosen for the V5 position. It is supposed to be very durable and outlast numerous EL84 tube reloads. This tube never seems to go beyond the heater stage (appearance with respect to how bright it vs. the other 12AX7 tubes). When I switched it with other 12AX7 tube, they fully lit up in the V5 position.


It does sound better with the JJEL84's, but not 'special' like it used to. This amp used to continually sound better as you increased the volume and altered the tonestack, (or bypassed the tonestack more so). It was audible, painful pleasure that pushed so much air, that it would blow things off the shelves.


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

I did more homework on the Sovtek 12AX7LPS. The low light appearance is normal due to the long plate spiral filament design. This is the tube that DR.Z recommends for the PI in V5.


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

I wish I'd bought a truckload of winged C tubes before they went under, those were great power tubes


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

http://www.guitarscanada.com/archive/index.php/t-43137.html

I found this a good read.


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

I made my decision. I decided to by from the Tube Store. I ordered a matched set of Preferred Series 7189 Premium EL84. They are burned in, matched, tested, and come with a 6 month warranty.

They are not cheap to buy, with the difference in the dollar, shipping, and tax.


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

The new EL84 tubes arrived. Sparkle, chime, growl, and pick attack shimmer/shine are back. 

Maybe next time the American dollar is down I will buy a full set of tubes. Good overnight service from the Tube Store.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Since when did Canadian companies start selling in US dollars? (or are they really a US company?)
:frown-new:


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

jb welder said:


> Since when did Canadian companies start selling in US dollars? (or are they really a US company?)
> :frown-new:


I offered to pay with USD and they refused. If I shipped to the USA, they would accept my USD and there would be no HST. Paying a 28% premium, plus HST, plus shipping= over $112 for 2 premium EL84 tubes. Factory replacements would have been about $40 less. 

If you log into the Tube Store web site the prices are all in CDN, which is about 28% higher at the moment. There is a flat fee for the shipping of 1 tube, or a box full of tubes.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Tone Chaser said:


> If you log into the Tube Store web site the prices are all in CDN


Ok, now I see how it works. If you don't want to create an account or give credit card info as "guest", you can't see the CDN pricing.
The default pricing if not logged in is in US dollars.
No thanks.


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## Church-Audio (Sep 27, 2014)

Tone Chaser said:


> I offered to pay with USD and they refused. If I shipped to the USA, they would accept my USD and there would be no HST. Paying a 28% premium, plus HST, plus shipping= over $112 for 2 premium EL84 tubes. Factory replacements would have been about $40 less.
> 
> If you log into the Tube Store web site the prices are all in CDN, which is about 28% higher at the moment. There is a flat fee for the shipping of 1 tube, or a box full of tubes.


They are like my microphone company. I sell only in USD. Why because I have a online store  Like they do and like them 99% of my customers are from the USA or elsewhere not Canada. They cant take payments from Canadian customers in US funds because there credit card system and Accounting system does not allow it. I will tell you this I have dealt with many vendors all over North America for tubes. By far the Tubestore.com is simply the best for service and for quality of product. They stand behind what they sell and they don't give customers any bullshit where there are issues. And to be honest I can get tubes cheaper from the USA but when there is a problem I have to ship them back get new tubes sent to me and the customer waits forever what to save $4.00 NO THANK YOU. I would rather deal with a Canadian company. They are a Online only store unless your local to Hamilton. Thats the way ecommerce works now. You think they are floating in the bucks but All the tubes they buy from the suppliers they use are also in USD. They could whine about it like little babies or except it as a fact of doing business. So the next time you say why are things this way or that way. Think about it what would you do if you ran a business where all your parts and inventory came from the US and you had maybe 20 Canadian customers a month? Sell in Canadian dollars or US??? Nobody does better quality control then these guys out of the 1000's of tubes I have ordered from them, and apparently I am there biggest local customer I have had to return maybe 10 tubes. Now thats what I can quality control. You think Mojotone or any other US vendor is going to test tubes and make sure they are working as well as these guys do I think not. They are a 100% Canadian company Dan the owner is one hell of a nice guy who cares about his customers.

- - - Updated - - -



jb welder said:


> Ok, now I see how it works. If you don't want to create an account or give credit card info as "guest", you can't see the CDN pricing.
> The default pricing if not logged in is in US dollars.
> No thanks.


You dont have to give your credit card info at all.. You just need an email address and your password. Never asked me for my credit card info. What I do is log on get all my prices and my order together print it out and walk over with my list. I know what its going to cost me before I get there simple.


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

+1 for the Tubestore in Hamilton, I have had excellent service from them too


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Strange, I've had to replace a higher percentage of defective tubes from them. I don't blame The Tube Store for that though, rather it's the reality of tube manufacture these days. However, the $10 shipping cost for returning a defective tube is something I incur which does affect my bottom line. 



Church-Audio said:


> They are like my microphone company. I sell only in USD. Why because I have a online store  Like they do and like them 99% of my customers are from the USA or elsewhere not Canada. They cant take payments from Canadian customers in US funds because there credit card system and Accounting system does not allow it. I will tell you this I have dealt with many vendors all over North America for tubes. By far the Tubestore.com is simply the best for service and for quality of product. They stand behind what they sell and they don't give customers any bullshit where there are issues. And to be honest I can get tubes cheaper from the USA but when there is a problem I have to ship them back get new tubes sent to me and the customer waits forever what to save $4.00 NO THANK YOU. I would rather deal with a Canadian company. They are a Online only store unless your local to Hamilton. Thats the way ecommerce works now. You think they are floating in the bucks but All the tubes they buy from the suppliers they use are also in USD. They could whine about it like little babies or except it as a fact of doing business. So the next time you say why are things this way or that way. Think about it what would you do if you ran a business where all your parts and inventory came from the US and you had maybe 20 Canadian customers a month? Sell in Canadian dollars or US??? Nobody does better quality control then these guys out of the 1000's of tubes I have ordered from them, and apparently I am there biggest local customer I have had to return maybe 10 tubes. Now thats what I can quality control. You think Mojotone or any other US vendor is going to test tubes and make sure they are working as well as these guys do I think not. They are a 100% Canadian company Dan the owner is one hell of a nice guy who cares about his customers.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...


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## Church-Audio (Sep 27, 2014)

Strange only ever had to replace maybe 10-15 tubes out of hundreds. But I don't buy jj or EH I only buy Tungsol or tad for power tubes.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Church-Audio said:


> I don't buy jj or EH I only buy Tungsol or tad for power tubes.


Tungsol = New Sensor = EH. So I expect they are the same tubes with different labels. If you are getting better results with tung-sol than with EH, perhaps they are screening/testing them better?
TAD are definitely just screening other peoples tubes and selling the ones that meet their specs. I believe Ruby does the same and are also reputed to be more reliable than the generic versions of the tubes they re-label.


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