# Extra sound port on a guitar?



## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

Quite a few builders of double top classicals and even double top steel string acoustic guitars are now putting an extra sound hole in the upper bout that blasts away directly at the ear of the player.
Personally I dislike the feature to say the least because I have always tried to play to what I hear coming back from the room's acoustics not what is necessarily coming out in close.

I find that guitars with this feature are not necessarily louder and the sound coming from the upper bout can be very annoying and by and large lacks tonal focus of the players attack. I don't hear the true sweetness of the instrument on guitars with this feature.

A close friend of mine has a very expensive Reynolds lattice braced classical with this feature and although the guitar can sound like a piano or a cannon!! I have to cover the port to even attempt to play something as expressive as a Villa Lobos prelude. The sound coming from the port up close actually hurt my ears it was that freakin' loud and unfocused up close!

Is it worth building these instruments or do you think this is just a fad?
Yes if you like this feature. No if you think it is a just a passing fad as I do.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Ive heard of such a thing but have never tried one.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Eric Reesor said:


> I have to cover the port





Guncho said:


> Ive heard of such a thing but have never tried one.


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

Guncho said:


> Ive heard of such a thing but have never tried one.


The one part of the feature that might make some sense is putting an extra mic above your head and then wearing head phones to hear the complete sound you are making. So it might be very useful for recording purposes. A builder by the name Dominelli Dominelli Guitars builds very expensive classicals that are very sweet sounding with this feature, what he also does is create a magnetic cover that can be slid down to damp the port or cover it completely. So like any hole it can be filled in at the discretion of the player. I was just wondering if the huge factory guys will eventually start to add this feature. I guess only time will tell.


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## reckless toboggan (Mar 9, 2019)

laristotle said:


> View attachment 298366


I thought those were cup holders.


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

@laristotle 
Thanks for the pics! I was just too lazy to attach some...%h(*&


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

Some people won't play a guitar with electronics installed in that spot because it affects the sound. I think it is a fad. Of course I've never played one so I am just expressing an uninformed opinion


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Easier to get Lego's out. 

I find all acoustics difficult to hear anywhere but alone-on-the-couch. I enjoy some form of monitoring but I don't think the extra hole is for me. I prefer some kind of external reinforcement -- mic/monitor, pickup/amp, etc.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

KapnKrunch said:


> Easier to get Lego's out.


and picks


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Never had a double top guitar but I have two with side sound ports and dealt another, all steel strings. I like them, feel there’s great note definition, slightly louder perhaps though I don’t know how one would test the theory, easy to record.


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

laristotle said:


> and picks


Could be. Most of Los Indios Tabajaras Nato Lima solo playing was with a plectrum. He sure as beans could slur the crap out of passages with much less effort and to a very great effect. Especially on Waltz of the Flowers. I used to play the accompaniment along with a duo partner who was an extremely gifted Eli Kassner student who did the arrangement from a copy of a piano reduction of the score. He played the solo line with a plectrum. I suspect that Pete's stellar ability to play plectrum drove Kassner to distraction though. I respected it for what it is,,, a very great flexibility with technique! I on the other hand (pun intended) would have to shake the pick out of my guitar if I tried it, I did play a few Bach solos with a plectrum and found that it can be really great if you don't start flat pickin' away al a Flat and Scrugs too much. But flat pickin' and bustin' a grove on a Bach riff has it's place in music at least IM not so H Opine. 

But back to extra sound ports. They can increase the resonance of a double top in the higher frequencies depending on the design of the upper bout and if the guitar is designed to resonate more in the upper bout. The other aspect is that you can always have the sound port facing down on the treble side of the upper bout which is the way I would have it done. I would rather blast my feet than my ears.... with the almost pure cavity sound of a guitar. I did notice that the resonance that sticks out the most is the upper partials of the guitars cavity resonance. So the sound coming from the sound port tends to be wolfy as all get out to my ears to say the least.


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

reckless toboggan said:


> I thought those were cup holders.


Or perhaps one could put a custom built ash tray cover in it if you don't like using the cut string bent up on end of the third tuner old school. Could even have a removable roach clip added on the ash tray if you are into that.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

One place where I think it could be really useful would be in a multi-guitar jam. Quite a few people don't seem to understand the majority of the guitar's sound is project straight ahead and play pretty hard to hear themselves - especially when someone else is playing a solo or intro/outro. If you have a firm grip on physics, I think you know to back way off, even to the point of barely hearing yourself in those intimate moments. For the rest, perhaps a upward-directing soundhole is the solution?

I've played a few guitars with the feature, including a Kevin Ryan with a fluted body bevel (similar idea).


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

I had a port hole on a Wren Concert - it was a nice feature.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

My former work colleague Gerry Gruber makes acoustics (though not gut-string/classical models) with a shoulder aperture ( Xaver Guitars Home Page ). I've only seen them at guitar shows, but have not tried any out.

A fad? No. I think it's really more of an I-wonder-if experiment with apertures. We have a long history of varying apertures in acoustic instruments, whether it be various kinds of F-holes, oval Macaferri soundholes, distributed Adamas/Ovation soundholes, and I'm sure many others. We have soundholes of varying diameters as well as assorted bracing experiments, bridge shape experiments, string anchoring experiments, variations in shape, cutaways, and things like sloped shoulders on acoustics to follow the convenience provided to electric players. So, it's no more a fad than any of those other aspects, many of which were explored well before you or I were born.

Does it *add* something useful? I suppose that would depend on both what the player needs, and what the guitar provides as a result of its other design aspects. I can imagine that there are many performance contexts in which mic-ing or otherwise amplifying an acoustic is difficult or simply not done in any specific manner, and the performer benefits by having the upward-facing soundhole serve as a kind of monitor speaker. But clearly that is not every performance context, and there is likely going to be a difference between simply hearing your own playing _at all_, and hearing the timbral particulars that might lead one to modify your playing based on a timbral misrepresentation of the instrument.

So I suspect the potential advantages will and should be assessed on a case-by-case basis. I don't know what instrument laristotle showed with the sliding door, but that strikes me as a sensible approach. Although the internal structure required to mount a sliding door may well hamper the tone of the instrument too.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

I read that Grit Laskin was the first to do it.

Some of them have a door. They are convertibles.

It seems to be mostly for practice or so that the player can hear what is being projected.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Just as an example. This started with none, got the one on the left, got the second which I didn't care for and had closed when the guitar was in for major work. This guitar was somewhat experimental from the start and it was loads of fun working with Josh House on its features. I've since sold it, not for any weakness on the part of the guitar, I've got several other great guitars.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

The others.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I don't own one--but I have played guitars with them--I like them.
Makes it easier to hear them, especially with other stuff going on around you (Like other musicians, etc)


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

High/Deaf said:


> One place where I think it could be really useful would be in a multi-guitar jam. Quite a few people don't seem to understand the majority of the guitar's sound is project straight ahead and play pretty hard to hear themselves - especially when someone else is playing a solo or intro/outro. If you have a firm grip on physics, I think you know to back way off, even to the point of barely hearing yourself in those intimate moments. For the rest, perhaps a upward-directing soundhole is the solution?
> 
> I've played a few guitars with the feature, including a Kevin Ryan with a fluted body bevel (similar idea).


YES, playing effectively in ensemble requires that the players communicate. When I first began playing in a duo I certainly learned this lesson big time!! And indeed having a ported guitar in ensemble is a very good idea if you are not using mics.
Pete, my duo partner was stellar and taught me a great deal about the differences between solo and ensemble play. Then the magic really happens when you learn to back off and really listen to what the other instrumentalist has to say even if you have the melody. The give and take of statement and response, swing and all of the other things that make music great then starts to happen. In solo play, at least on a classical guitar you only discover these things when you learn to accentuate only one note with power and clarity with any finger while striking what some would call the "chords". Especially learning to cleanly accent melody notes in an arpeggio with the a finger is a critical point of learning, As is playing and accentuating chordal tones in a long and even at times wildly chromatic run. The importance of having great dynamics is a long forgotten aspect for far too many of today's "solo" guitarists. Compression and equalization can become a curse on great musicianship!!! As bad as Sony taking out Glen Gould's extra piano activities and then peddling it as his recordings!


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

Hammerhands said:


> I read that Grit Laskin was the first to do it.
> 
> Some of them have a door. They are convertibles.
> 
> It seems to be mostly for practice or so that the player can hear what is being projected.


I played Bach's Prelude from BWV 998 on a wonderful Laskin when my brother Chris put Ibeam in one for a client in Smithers quite a few years back. It didn't have a port to my recollection but WOW what a beautiful balanced AXE!!!
I played it through a bassman head through a set of 4 10s in a cab and was able to back down and get just about every note clear and beautiful. Almost made me switch back to steel string amplified and get a steel string made at least 1 7/8" at the nut! I have wide finger tips and need wide spacing. But a sweet sounding Laskin with a sound port would be great in ensemble to say the least. Skip all that inlay crap though! I can't afford 20 large or to wait 3 years.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

As I understand it, "sound hole" is really a bit of a misnomer and really should be called an "air hole" as it allows the soundboard to vibrate more freely by allowing air in and out of the cavity. I would imagine that the side "sound hole" would allow more of the sound of the guitar to be projected upwards, but most of the side-ported guitars that I've seen also have a smaller (or non-existent) sound hole in the front which would yield a larger surface area on the soundboard and therefore better projection. That theory makes sense to me, but I have yet to try one in person.


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

bw66 said:


> As I understand it, "sound hole" is really a bit of a misnomer and really should be called an "air hole" as it allows the soundboard to vibrate more freely by allowing air in and out of the cavity. I would imagine that the side "sound hole" would allow more of the sound of the guitar to be projected upwards, but most of the side-ported guitars that I've seen also have a smaller (or non-existent) sound hole in the front which would yield a larger surface area on the soundboard and therefore better projection. That theory makes sense to me, but I have yet to try one in person.


I can tell you from experience that a hole in the upper bout of a guitar can really blast away. What I should do is a decibel at distance and frequency wave graph test between the traditional sound port and upper bout to determine the best proportionality between the two to achieve a greater balance of tone quality throughout the tonal range of a guitar.

It would be very interesting if it turns out that the best balance between the two turns out to be a golden ratio. An upper bout port that can be adjusted in size is a really simple affair. Doing the math is not that hard either.
I would not at all doubt that master lute and oud makers may very well have used the ratio, it certainly is predominant in the study of the history of all the arts and sciences. But like any craft with a long history, the use of the golden ratio was most likely considered a trade secret at one time.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

I read an article about why an F-hole is an advanced design and it said it is the length of the circumference of the hole that matters, and not the area of the hole.


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

Hammerhands said:


> I read an article about why an F-hole is an advanced design and it said it is the length of the circumference of the hole that matters, and not the area of the hole.


The problem with using f holes on a flat topped guitar is and has always been bracing. Solve that problem without creating a top that cracks wildly at the slightest bump or change in weather and you are on to something. Classical tops are .080 give or take and steel strings are not much more robust. So it seems the problems with f holes on a traditional guitar other than heavily strung carved top jazz guitars are a catch 22.





Gibson has always hated the classical guitar for very good reason. Martin gave in a little at one time, the best example of a martin classic is Trigger, but the history of factory made classical guitar construction in the US is at best dismal. There have been obscure luthiers who have had moderate success but by and large to really appreciate the instrument you have to go either to Europe or South America. Even North Korea is ahead of the US in producing young solo classical guitarists. Canada is somewhere caught in between all that nonsense.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

Hammerhands said:


> I read that Grit Laskin was the first to do it.
> 
> Some of them have a door. They are convertibles.
> 
> It seems to be mostly for practice or so that the player can hear what is being projected.


On the electric side, I owned an Artinger Convertible which was a pretty cool guitar. See demo link.


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

Alex said:


> On the electric side, I owned an Artinger Convertible which was a pretty cool guitar. See demo link.


Neat! I definitely heard perhaps a small amount of some of the acoustics coming out being picked up by the condenser. So in studio the feature might be desirable if well done, as I speculated. However I fear that the synth guys are going to take all the recording work away from everybody so perhaps playing guitars for a living will become a thing of the past. Not at all a bad thing if live performance in coffee house venues and small venue finally starts to take off again and perhaps become a little more diverse. I remember the ol' Cellar and the other places where you could hear really great players and the Egress. All that seems to have died. But I digress, adding a variety of tone possibilities to an instrument is a wonderful thing. So I am beginning to change my opinion a little. Thanks for the replies and votes.


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