# ugly dim chords



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I have been experimenting with scales/chords. I can pretty much play all 7 chords in a key in a single position (5 fret span). The 7th chord of the key is a diminished chord and they sound really bad to me. Is there a common substitution?


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

As background, here is my "map" and the legend that goes with it. I do not know if this is "correct" as far as a teaching method goes, but it makes some sense to me.










Edit Note: Did I map that out upside down?, backwards? to normal convention....just nooticed


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## gtrchris (Apr 1, 2007)

A simple answer to your question is the V chord is a common substitution.

Here's a theoretical explanation:
The vii chord is a diminished triad but if you add the next 3rd interval extension to the chord it becomes a half diminished or min7b5 chord. For example in C major the vii chord would be b minor 7th b5 spelled b, d, f, a. There are many ways to voice this chord. It tends to sound better in first inversion which means with the second note of the chord in the bass, so spelled out it would be d,f,a,b. You can also call this chord a d minor 6th. 
Functionally it can be used as a subdominant or dominant chord in terms of resolution either in a minor key ii V i, or as a V chord or dominant in a major key. It has common notes with the V chord and can be used as a substitute for the V7. For example compare G7 g,b,d,f and Bminor7b5 b,d,f,a, they have 3 notes in common.
Hope this helps a bit.
Cheers
Chris


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

Keep in mind too that sometimes an 'ugly' chord is exactly what you need. It's not something that you'll strum for a whole bar in a folky/country tune, but in a jazz tune where you're changing chords every beat it's a great way to keep up the momentum. Even then you'll usually use it in 1st inversion and avoid doubling either of the notes that are part of the tritone. 

Otherwise, stick with what gtrchris said - add scale degree 5 under it and just have a V7 chord.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Thank you! I got some of it any ways. I am not into jazz ( at least not "heavy" jazz), so that helps too...lol. I am doing this as a purely theoretical exercise and wish to complete all 5 scale shapes the same way. I still could not solo if my life depended on it, but I enjoy playing songs, so not a huge deal. I thought that after having a guitar for 40 years, it is about time I learned a little about it.


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

Ahhh! I LOVE the diminished chord! Beautiful thing where a lot of the "shit" lives. Some neat stuff:

-They lead back to the root chord - so dropping one in on beat 3 just before hitting the root chord gives you that cool tension you hear in blues a lot.
- They invert themselves every four frets, so learning one actually gives you 4 to work with.
- They make GREAT subs for the V chord (as described above) - in doing this they also take on the function of the V chord (don't forget about the 4 fret inversions here too!
- They make great transition chords for key modulations (Bmin, Bdim, Bb or Bmin, Bdim, B7 etc)

The best part is a diminished arpeggio takes on ALL these functions during a solo.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I will have to try and keep that all in mind while I struggle with making sense of everything else I am trying.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I love diminished 7th chords. They're so handy as transitional harmonies between other chords, and for key modulations. One nice move is to flatten any single note of a diminshed chord and you get a dominant 7th. For example, F#dim7 is only one flattened note away from D7, B7, G#7 (or Ab7), and F7. 

Finding diminished 7th chords on the neck is easy, and the fingerings logical. Every note in the chord is separated by the same interval, therefore the same chord "shape" can be found to be the same chord a few frets away. The aforementioned F#dim7 (eg, xx1212) is found with the same hand shape (fingering) at fret 1, 4, 7, 10, 13. Any note of the chord can be considered its root, so that F#dim7 can also be called A dim7, Cdim7, and Ebdim7 (or D#dim7).

*Edit*: Shit, I just read Jeremy's post. I was thinking about this earlier and posted before I read the subsequent offerings. Sorry Jim and Jeremy for the duplication. I should know better than to post when I'm medicated.

Peace, Mooh.


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

No worries Mooh! You touched on the diminished connection which was an oversight on my part. The diminished is the connecting link between all those chords.


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