# Live Sound Cookbook



## Hamstrung

I'd like to start a thread that if it becomes useful could possibly be a sticky for this sub-group.

I'd like this to be a "how to" section on setting up and mixing for live performances. Preferably keep this to small venues for our "bar band" crowd.

Answer things like:
Basic PA gear - i.e. you should at least have xxxx for a bar gig
How to hook it up.
Passive vs. Powered speakers/mixers (can you have both?)
Subs, when, where and how to use them?
Mic'ing, What, When, Why, Why not? Best mics?
Sound man, worth the cost? If not, what's best approach to "do it yourself"? Placement of PA/Mixer etc.

These are just some ideas off the top of my head. As a novice at setting up my band for live sound I know I'm probably making some mistakes or could do things more efficiently. It would be great if those of you who have experience in this could enhance or add to this list with your shared knowledge to help us noobs have a good reference point (this thread) and get the best out of our equipment however meager or know what equipment is essential for a small venue (10-200 people ) live performance.

I found this document on the Yorkville site which is a good starting point but I'd love to hear from the PA veterans out there and I think a lot of us could find this useful.

http://www.yorkville.com/downloads/other/basicpaprimer.pdf


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## jtienhaara

I've only glanced at that Yorkville link, but it looks like a great primer and a great reference.

For anyone interested in getting more in depth in either live sound or home studio recording I think The Sound Reinforcement Handbook is an excellent next step, after that Yorkville primer:

http://www.amazon.ca/Sound-Reinforcement-Handbook-Gary-Davis/dp/0881889008

There are a few things that primers and books don't tell you. As an obvious example, not all clubs will let you bring your own gear / sound guy. Generally the bigger the venue the less opportunity to get involved in the sound.

One thing the books usually don't delve into, but it affected me when I mucked about doing DIY sound for my band at Ms. T's in Vancouver (R.I.P., the nightclub burned down about 10 years ago) -- lack of proper earth grounding in a facility can lead to some shocking results.

If I were to start over again and save up enough money to "do it right" from the get-go but on a reasonable budget, I would probably do something like this:

- Buy a cheap rackmountable mono amp
- Buy a cheap 16 channel (or less) rackmountable mixer with auxes / effects inserts
- Buy a couple of passive PA speakers for the audience
- Buy a bunch of powered floor monitors for the band
Wire them in pairs so that they hit each microphone out-of-phase
I never did this when I was younger, but I wish I had! Feedback is a pain in the arse
- Buy a bunch of cheap dynamic mics
- Spend your life savings on cables (balanced XLR mic cables, balanced TRS line cables, heavy duty speaker cables)
Go balanced as much as possible. There's nothing like listening to the radio when you're running 50' line feeds and supposed to be listening to a live band
- Buy a cheap compressor and squash the crap out of the vocals so that people can actually hear bits and pieces of what the singer is screaming about, and so that the floor monitors don't have to be cranked (ie less feedback)
- Buy a little shock absorbent rack to house the amp, mixer, compressor
- Keep everything labeled and carefully organized
- Follow the over/under cable wrapping technique (see video elsewhere on Guitars Canada, can't find it at the moment but it's a sticky in one of the forums)
- Don't use duct tape; order some gaffer tape, it's just as strong and useful, but less gooey; I learned this the hard way!

For small gigs I wouldn't bother mic'ing any of the instruments except vox and synths. Guitar amps, drums and bass amps are already plenty loud for small gigs.

Sound checks are ideal, but if my experiences are representative, almost never happen in small gigs. You basically have to get things up on stage and ready as fast as possible after the bar owner has finally turned off the TV / hockey game.

I'm sure I've missed a ton of details, but hopefully some of this might prove helpful.

Cheers & happy live sound'ing Hamstrung,

Johann


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## Jim DaddyO

If you are doing the sound, you should practice telling the guitar player to turn down :smiley-faces-75:


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## urko99

I've always wondered why we've never had a section on Live Sound discussion, and a Sales Emporium. It is such an important part of what we do, to be ignored.
It just makes sense to tap the knowledge of our membership on this topic, Plain and simple. I know that I would frequent the threads in that section, and be a regular.

JMHO


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## Hamstrung

Jim DaddyO said:


> If you are doing the sound, you should practice telling the guitar player to turn down :smiley-faces-75:


uh... I am the guitar player... :sSc_eeksign:


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## ronmac

Johann has listed many of the things required. It is hard to come up with a conclusive list without knowing specifics of band, style, venue size, stage size....

One thing I would definitely change in Johann's list is to remove the word "cheap". Buy once, cry once....


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## shoretyus

One suggestion I have if you do have a system. Write down the how the system is hooked up or a master layout for the system and tape it somewhere that is can be used as a reference. It helps if somebody that doesn't know ( and YOU are in jail drunk or still at the girlfriends ) get the system working. 

A circuit tester somewhere in your gear is also handy for chasing glitches in chords etc.


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## greco

I think it is helpful to have someone in the audience that has an interest in/knowledge about sound and can answer the question that is always asked at the first break *"How do we sound?" *(or even before that if there are some glaring issues) with honesty and a reasonably solid "analysis".....e.g., the leads aren't coming through, the bass is overpowering, can't hear any of the vocals, the guitar amp has way too much treble (not that anyone really wants to try and tackle a guitarist's tone that has been his "signature" for years).

Just something to throw into the mix...the pun is intended!!

Cheers

Dave


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## Milkman

Much of what will be suggested in this thread will be opinion.

Here's mine.

No matter how small the gig is, always have a sound man. Mixing from stage is reactive and often corrections are made after the set.

It's hard to imagine money spent more effectively on ensuring you get the best sound out front.


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## greco

Milkman said:


> It's hard to imagine money spent more effectively on ensuring you get the best sound out front.


Not wishing to derail the thread, but what would a sound man (person) typically charge to attend a gig at a bar and do sound/mixing for 4 band members (vocals and guitar, drums, bass guitar, guitar) from 9:00 PM until 1:00 a.m.?

Do the sound people typically supply any of the gear needed to do the mixing? (i.e., boards, snakes, etc).

Cheers

Dave


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## bw66

ronmac said:


> One thing I would definitely change in Johann's list is to remove the word "cheap". Buy once, cry once....


Agreed. Buy the best you can afford.


Jim DaddyO said:


> If you are doing the sound, you should practice telling the guitar player to turn down :smiley-faces-75:


Often the best thing you can do for your sound is to talk the drummer into using an electronic kit, especially if he/she is a heavy hitter. (And then ask the guitarist to turn down.)



Milkman said:


> No matter how small the gig is, always have a sound man. Mixing from stage is reactive and often corrections are made after the set.
> 
> It's hard to imagine money spent more effectively on ensuring you get the best sound out front.


Good advice if you play in a perfect world. In the real world, the second best thing you can do is to get yourself a decent wireless kit for your instrument and occasionally take a walk out front to check on the sound.


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## Milkman

greco said:


> Not wishing to derail the thread, but what would a sound man (person) typically charge to attend a gig at a bar and do sound/mixing for 4 band members (vocals and guitar, drums, bass guitar, guitar) from 9:00 PM until 1:00 a.m.?
> 
> Do the sound people typically supply any of the gear needed to do the mixing? (i.e., boards, snakes, etc).
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave



If the soundman is showing up without gear, $100 is reasonable for a bar gig (same as a musician). 

If you want him to provide gear, it's his fee plus rental costs.

I guess if you're looking at return on investment, you go as cheap as you can. If you really care about sounding as good as you can, the $100 is money well spent. All the million dollar gear in the world won't replace a trained set of ears working on your behalf IMO.


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## kw_guitarguy

I haven't done as much as Milkman, but I have been involved in life audio for about 16 years. All I can say, is get a sound guy, and hopefully not a tone deaf one! The wireless option is a good second choice, if you go that route, make sure you stand in multiple areas in the audience, close, far, left, right, center etc...My personal opinion on gear is the same as a few people here, buy once, cry once. A crappy amp will make good speakers sound crappy....a good amp with crappy speakers will still sound crappy.Also, an EQ...this is personal opinion but a lot of issues can be overcome is less than ideal environments with a decent EQ.Lastly, no matter how good your sound guy is, if you aren't willing to listen to him/her and adjust your stage volumes accordingly, then it's not worth having him. What you hear behind the FOH is not what the audience hears. As long as you have what you need in your monitors, let the guy out front tell you what he needs for the audience.~Andrew


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## Milkman

bw66 said:


> Good advice if you play in a perfect world. In the real world, the second best thing you can do is to get yourself a decent wireless kit for your instrument and occasionally take a walk out front to check on the sound.


Perfect? No. Better? Definitely.

Why do we have to compromise so much? Only big shows are worth having a sound man?

No, not for me anyway.

You're right about one thing. Having someone walk out front occasionally _is_ second best.


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## Milkman

The thing is, the benefits you get from a nice controlled mix are even MORE effective in small venues.

Getting your stage volume down is a critical step and one of the best ways to accomplish that is with IEMs and as much going direct to the board as you can.


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## 4345567

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## jtienhaara

Interesting responses, fun reading.

Love especially shoretyus's suggestions of taking notes & bringing a circuit tester. Add to that a cheap cable tester! And if you're handy, also add a soldering iron. Seriously...

To clarify my earlier statements about "cheap", I should have said "cheap but good". Some of the most expensive gear I've used was some of the least user friendly and ho-hum sounding, whereas the biggest wow factors for me come from discovering the really good cheap devices. Note that "good" is subjective when it comes to all things music-related. That said, until you've tried out a few expensive pieces of equipment, it's almost impossible to know what audio gear is capable of. But then again, since your first few compressor choices (as an example) are going to be crap whether you buy cheap or expensive, I kind of think it's better to learn how to compress while using cheap gear, figure out what you hate about it, find other people who have similar opinions as you on the same gear but have already upgraded, and next try out their recommendations. In a few years *maybe* you'll find some keepers. Or maybe you'll still be searching for the right gear for your workflow & ears!

But that's getting into my personal buying philosophy, nothing to do with DIY live sound. To each her own.

As to sound guys, personally I think there are 3 reasons to consider DIY sound:

1. You have fun doing it.
2. Every sound guy you hire shows up 2 hours late with crappy equipment.
3. One sound guy didn't show up at all for your friend's band. Luckily you had some gear and just enough know-how to make the gig go ahead. Bad sound is better than no sound!

And the reason to hire the sound guy:

1. You've somehow managed to find one with good ears, good attitude, good gear, an open schedule, and one who is punctual.

Now unless you've found that guy, IME, your mix is going to sound like crap anyway. But hey, who cares, it's rock'n'roll, nobody's going to get famous, nobody's going to rave about your "tone", your music sucks anyway, the audience is too drunk to realize you're out of tune, and all that really matters is how your perform -- is it fun to watch? -- so do whatever is the most fun for you.

Uggh more philosophy. :sSc_eeksign:

That's my $0.02 anyway. Great thread, I'm enjoying reading everyone's experiences & ideas. Keep it going!

Johann


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## Hamstrung

My whole intent of starting the thread was to have those well versed in this to "teach us to fish"
Hiring a sound man, while probably the ideal is more "providing the fish"


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## ronmac

Here is a very quick snapshot of what goes in the van for a typical 4 piece show:

$2500 Digital mixer
$ 750 Laptop
$ 500 iPad
$1800 Mics and DIs
$ 750 Stands and hardware
$4000 Monitors
$6000 Fronts
$1000 Snake and cables

Still interested in doing your own sound?


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## robare99

One thing to really think about is playing as a band. Band first, individual members second. Don't be that guy who is only in it for yourself, your tone is your tone, and to hell with everyone else. Work together as a group towards that common goal of sounding great out front, instead of 4 or 5 individual musicians in it for themselves. Think about where you sit in the mix. Myself, I'll have a lead volume, then I back it off with a volume pedal for rhythm. My ultimate tone uses chorus, and sounds really good when I'm practicing alone, but in my band I don't use it, as a dry-er sound fits better in the overall mix. I'm not too loud, if I need more I can put more into my own monitor. 

Think about your system and maybe have a goal in mind. When I upgraded from my old mixing board (a Yorkie PowerMax16) one feature I was looking for, was individual monitor mixes. This made life a lot easier as each person can have what they want in their wedge. 

The key though, is really playing together as a group. Learn some mic technique, get up on the mic when you are singing lead, and back off a bit if you are doing backups. 

That's a good starting point. At practice, practice working together and then it will translate better to the stage, and half the battle is done. If you can get away with a more reasonable stage sound it will help you out in the long run.


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## Hamstrung

ronmac said:


> Here is a very quick snapshot of what goes in the van for a typical 4 piece show:
> 
> $2500 Digital mixer
> $ 750 Laptop
> $ 500 iPad
> $1800 Mics and DIs
> $ 750 Stands and hardware
> $4000 Monitors
> $6000 Fronts
> $1000 Snake and cables
> 
> Still interested in doing your own sound?


So this is the base requirement for the neighborhood drinking hole and nothing else will suffice?


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## jtienhaara

Looks more like an endpoint than a starting point to me -- but still an expensive one. And I think the general idea was that no matter how small the starting budget, it invariably swells unimaginably over time. It's just so addictive! 

I'm pretty surprised about snakes and cables being among the cheapest items though, ronmac. I've found them to take up a pretty high % of live sound budgets, personally. But maybe I've been buying cables at all the wrong places. Do you build DIY snakes & cables?


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## bw66

Hamstrung said:


> So this is the base requirement for the neighborhood drinking hole and nothing else will suffice?


For small venues (150-200 people), we run electric guitars, bass, and sometimes keys through amps along the back wall. Acoustics, vocals and usually keys run through a mixer to PA and monitors. Drums are acoustic with no amplification. We have five vocal mics so we try to get our hands on a board with at least 8 XLR inputs. We set all the mics to the same level in both PA and monitors and mix our vocals by changing our mic proximity based on what we hear through the monitors. For PA, we use 15" mains (though 12" would probably be fine) and four 10" or 12" monitors. We're not a loud band.

When we play at the local fair, they provide a sound guy. It is generally agreed that we sound better pretty much everywhere else we play. To be fair, I am a pretty decent sound operator - certainly better than most $100-a-night sound guys - having done audio/visual for corporate gigs for many years in another life.


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## 4345567

______________


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## Milkman

Hamstrung said:


> My whole intent of starting the thread was to have those well versed in this to "teach us to fish"
> Hiring a sound man, while probably the ideal is more "providing the fish"


I guess my thoughts on this are that the best thing you can do to improve your sound is to have a soundman out front.

DIY sound (from stage) is not something I would recommend. As far as DIY in terms of improving your sound, I recommend focussing on what happens on stage, and let the guy who is in a much better position to monitor the sound and make real time adjustments do the mix.

DIY FOH sound is a bit like home dentistry.


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## Hamstrung

nkjanssen said:


> For a neighborhood bar that wants to host full bands, that budget doesn't appear out of line for a decent basic system. It's probably light on a couple of items and a bit fat on others, but overall that's not a bad guesstimate. You could definitely spend less and you could definitely spend more. There's no right answer. Do you want it to sound good? Great? Barely acceptable? Amazing? Horrible? Are you staging full bands? Solo singer/songwriters? How big is the place?


I'm not speaking for the venue. I'm speaking for the small time, hobby band that gets a few gigs at the local watering hole to entertain the locals and a few friends that show up. If they look to bring their own gear i.e. a powered mixer, a couple mains and a few monitors what are some tips? 

I realize hiring a sound man is the best way to go for optimum sound with whatever you're using but 4 band members who are sharing the small take for the night might be hard pressed to agree on a 5 way split. Maybe they will, maybe they won't but if the sole answer of this "cookbook" as I call it is to "hire a sound man" then there was not much point in starting the thread. 
$15000 worth of PA equipment is out of the question so to put it yet another way what's the best way for a novice band to get the most out of a basic PA system keeping in mind the limitations?


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## robare99

nkjanssen said:


> For a neighborhood bar that wants to host full bands, that budget doesn't appear out of line for a decent basic system. It's probably light on a couple of items and a bit fat on others, but overall that's not a bad guesstimate. You could definitely spend less and you could definitely spend more. There's no right answer. Do you want it to sound good? Great? Barely acceptable? Amazing? Horrible? Are you staging full bands? Solo singer/songwriters? How big is the place?


I agree, that's similar to what I bring to a full bar band gig


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## robare99

Hamstrung said:


> I'm not speaking for the venue. I'm speaking for the small time, hobby band that gets a few gigs at the local watering hole to entertain the locals and a few friends that show up. If they look to bring their own gear i.e. a powered mixer, a couple mains and a few monitors what are some tips?
> 
> I realize hiring a sound man is the best way to go for optimum sound with whatever you're using but 4 band members who are sharing the small take for the night might be hard pressed to agree on a 5 way split. Maybe they will, maybe they won't but if the sole answer of this "cookbook" as I call it is to "hire a sound man" then there was not much point in starting the thread.
> $15000 worth of PA equipment is out of the question so to put it yet another way what's the best way for a novice band to get the most out of a basic PA system keeping in mind the limitations?



These days there's lots of options, for smaller gigs (think open mic) I use a pair of mains, 2 - 3 monitors, a StudioLive 16.0.2 a couple power amps a macbook pro and a router, and you're good to go. 

Sometimes I'll mic everything for more control, or not. If you don't mic anything it's good to have a set of ears or someone with a wireless to go out front to take a listen. The lighting is a single Blizzard Fab5 on each main speaker set to fade between colors (RGBAW)

(Open mic)
[video=youtube_share;Q3WBmJAUdTk]http://youtu.be/Q3WBmJAUdTk[/video]


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## greco

Hamstrung said:


> .....so to put it yet another way what's the best way for a novice band to get the most out of a basic PA system keeping in mind the limitations?


Back on the track now. 

Sorry if I initiated/exacerbated the detour/partial derail.

Cheers

Dave


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## 4345567

________________


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## shoretyus

greco said:


> Back on the track now.
> 
> Sorry if I initiated/exacerbated the detour/partial derail.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave



You Canadian? :smiley-faces-75:

Having a soundman is not bad advice..period.... 

There are lots of cheap systems out there. But I personally think that if you have drums on stage ( not even in the mix) you should go to a 15" main and enough power to drive it. Being a somewhat singer I prefer a 15" monitor as well. I don't have much of a voice so I don't want to blow it. 

I don't how much I have into my system. The board was new in 86' ( 12 ch) but I bought some nice old Yamaha bins for $150, $250 for 15 monitors, couple amps where $400 etc


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## Milkman

It keeps coming back to "how can you justify....." based on four guys splitting $xxx?

Again, it comes down to priorities and yes, money matters, but for me, the measly few bucks you make playing a bar gig is not worth compromising your sound. Heck, I just can't enjoy the show if I have doubts about what's happening out front.

You can throw all the cash in the world at gear and still sound like BBQ'd a$$.

A decent sound man can get you a better mix with almost any gear.

If you want to talk about other elements, for small gigs, regardless of whether you have a guy out front with his hands on the mixer or try to do it yourself from the stage here are my recommendations.

1. Minimizing stage volume should be a high priority. That means pointing amps at the players heads, not sitting on the floor. Guitar amps are VERY directional. The need to be aimed right at your head.
I recommend side washing the guitar amps wherever possible. 

The biggest challenge in keeping volume down is not always guitar. In fact, I think it's more often bass. The problem there is that bass frequencies open up somewhere out on the dance floor. The bassist can be right in front of his amp and barely hear himself, but the folks in the seats are nearing the brown note syndrome (more bass than you want).

Drums are also a big issue. A good musician will have good dynamics, but it's tough to get really quiet on a drum kit and maintain energy and even meter to an extent. Electronic drums are a sound man's best friend IMO. Plexi-glass enclosures are a close second (some would say first).

To further reduce stage volume, IEMs are the bomb. Monitors get freaking LOUD. I've brought singers down behind the board to show them how loud the monitors actually were. 

"Ok, what's the big deal? I can't hear them over the mains"

Then I explain that the mains are off, and he's hearing _only_ the monitors.

So, all this about stage volume does NOT mean the mix has to be gutless. It allows you to put more through the PA and have less coming from various locations on the stage.

From the audience's perspective, that's going to result in a better, more consistent mix.

I hope this helps.


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## jtienhaara

shoretyus said:


> I bought some nice old Yamaha bins for $150


+1 on the 1980s Yammies PA gear. I have a pair of 15" cabs with horns that I bought 20 years ago, they've been abused to hell and back, but still sound better with wider more even frequency coverage than the 12" PA speakers I've cycled through.

I also have a P2201 that I found, and it's a beast of an amp. Its heat sink nearly sliced my finger off, and it threw out my boss's back, kept him out of the office for several days. But I love the thing, and will never get rid of it.

In general Yamaha PA gear built in the 1980s is never a bad choice.

I started out my DIY live sound with the aforementioned Yamaha PA speakers and a Yorkville 6 channel powered mixer. That worked for small bars with 30-50 people, and courtyard gigs at university. A compressor would have made my life a lot easier in those days, and maybe also a graphic EQ (to be honest I have never bothered with EQ). Feedback was a big problem, and making the singer understandable was nigh impossible. A compressor would have alleviated both those problems.

Back in those days I had no monitors for the band members. But we didn't need to hear ourselves, we were playing rock'n'roll, not shrinkwrapped candy pop!!! At one show the singer was too busy puking at the back of the stage to care what he sounded like.

The internet is the best and the worst place to ask "how do I get better at X?" Everyone is speaking from personal experience -- as someone said earlier in the thread, this is all opinions. Everyone who has gone down this path has made mistakes and learned from them, and would not go back and make those same mistakes again with 20/20 hindsight. But so what? There's still a lot of good advice here. It's not a cookbook, but if you want a cookbook, I'm sure Indigo.ca has a bazillion books on how to do DIY sound. Actually the Indie Band Bible by one of the guys from Moist might even have something along those lines, it certainly has a lot of interesting advice on building a band from the ground up (marketing etc). Meanwhile this thread has tons of great tips and food for thought.

Cheers & happy sound tech'ing,

Johann


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## robare99

There's something to be said for good old heavy iron. I remember our old rack with 3 CS800's in it. My back hurts even thinking about it. You needed 2 guys to lift it but it was much easier with 3. That being said I love my IPR's that weigh in at under 10lbs each. The ATA cases are heavier than the amps.


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## ronmac

One of the biggest factors for creating a good live sound is to get the group to think as a "band", not a stage loaded with "players". As Milkman stated earlier, keeping the stage volume at a reasonable level is an absolute must, especially in a small venue. 

A group that I often support (drums with backing vocals, electric guitar, bass and single vocalist) can easily be supported in a 150 seat bar with two stage monitors (one for the drummer/vocalist and one for the vocalist and guitar player) and two powered 12s out front. They only need vocals in the monitors and they only push vocals through the front speakers. They know how to control and direct their instruments/amps for good on-stage and house balance. They work as a group and keep the dynamics under control. Once I dial in the levels my job is done for the night.

They could easily buy the little gear that it takes to support themselves, but they continue to hire me because a) they love walking in, playing, walking out and b) they actually value my contribution and the security and peace of mind I provide them in showing up with good (and in this case, minimal) gear and the ability to use it. They pay me well for doing almost nothing.

On the other hand... there are groups that need a lot more gear to make them sound a lot worse.


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## shoretyus

> I remember our old rack with 3 CS800'





> Yorkville 6 channel powered mixer


Got 1 cs800 
12 channel stereo 200w yorkville ( maybe traynor ) 
1 75 traynor amp 
Yammy 15's ,15" peavey mons
delay 
All mounted in a homebuilt case on 3" wheels with enough room for a milk crate of cords .
Gives lots of options. I can take just parts of, depending on the gig size, but it will run a fair size outdoor gig. 

All ancient but a decent sound ... with lots of headroom. My board is powered as well. With three amps and a board that is well layed out ( different connections options ) gives the ability to reconfigure the system if something goes down. This board has taken the abuse from me since 86, it's heavy awkward but lights up every time. 

Now .. I do own an van and 5 by 8 trailer so moving that size of pa is not a problem...got room left for the Hammond


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## robare99

Good stuff. My gear is newer, but that was out of necessity and starting over. Someone else always had the gear. It was a mishmash of local stuff, I still see some of it turning up here and there. There's this ancient peavey board that just will NOT die and keeps turning up here and there. 


I ended up with a newer rig by design, but I definitely cut my teeth over the years on what was available.


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## Milkman

This is my main system (not my backline). It can be scaled down to half or less for small rooms.

It's middle of the road stuff and is more than capable of doing shows up to theatre size. I've even done an arena (hockey rink). Power is up to 13kw mains and 2.4 kw monitors. Lots of auxiliaries. 32 channels and fully stereo (for what that's worth).

What matters most is the guy behind the board.


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## robare99

Unitys over LS800's?


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## Milkman

Pulse over LS800P subs. The Pulse have upgraded drivers so the power handling is higher.


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## robare99

Milkman said:


> Pulse over LS800P subs. The Pulse have upgraded drivers so the power handling is higher.



Nice. I run one pair of Unity's over LS800p's my biggest gig is a Canada Day thing. We discussed doubling it up, but we decided to try one set per side and see how it went, and it's been fine. 












[video=youtube_share;AErrdQpc_oo]http://youtu.be/AErrdQpc_oo[/video]


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## jtienhaara

Holy crap! I can see why you guys recommend hiring sound guys. The ones I've dealt with had equipment more like this:











But in this condition:












As you say the sound guy's ears are way more important than his equipment... But sometimes his equipment is a sign of 1) how much experience he has and 2) how much he cares about his job.

I'd hire you two in a heartbeat!


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## robare99

Thanks.  remember guys, don't run your gains too hot and if you take a little off the highs, it can buy you a little forgiveness on stage when it comes to feedback. Things like SM58's for everyone will give you decent feedback rejection as well, vs a $60 mic. At $110 each it's something that should last the rest of your life and then some. 

Buy a cheap cable tester to go over your cables now and then. Always use Neutrik Ends for all your cables (I hate switch craft) they slid in and out of gear better than look-a-likes. Again, they should be about $4 each. Learn to solder, to repair or make your own cables as needed. I often buy 75' XLR cables and dice them up into what I need. 

Learn to over/under your cables and look after them. Run everything from one side so you don't have a big mess of cables everywhere. Use drop snakes if you can. I run an 9 channel to the front and then all my mics and whatever DI's plug into it instead of individual cables going all the way back to the mixer. Try to buy matching monitors if you can, it makes them interchangeable. 

I don't try to squeeze every ounce of gain before feedback out of my monitors. Sometimes I find that you end up slicing and dicing so much of the meat out of them, the musicians ask for more and more as a result. Unless there's a huge problem with the monitors and feedback, I'll take out the low end according to the specs of the monitors and again, a little downward slope on the last 3 or 4 upper bands, again for a little bit of forgiveness. 

As you can see, if it works for these guys, it can work for you. They're all over the place with my wireless mics. In fact I bought my wireless mics because with wired the cables kept getting all twisted to hell every time they played lol. 



[video=youtube_share;7K-y720yXTs]http://youtu.be/7K-y720yXTs[/video]


----------



## robare99

Bueller?

bueller?


----------



## Milkman

I started using wireless for guitar in the 80s (when they sucked pretty hard) and have never looked back. They're actually pretty good these days. I keep one good wireless mic but I seldom have a guy in my bands who only sings. I prefer that EVERYbody sings.

Today I secured IEMs for two bodies. I'll need a couple more to complete my elimination of all stage wedges (four piece band).

That will be a great, great day.

My rig a few years ago.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bwgl1jgrPZc

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dy64MmHHk2k


----------



## shoretyus

robare99 said:


> Nice. I run one pair of Unity's over LS800p's my biggest gig is a Canada Day thing. We discussed doubling it up, but we decided to try one set per side and see how it went, and it's been fine.


Very nice job


----------



## robare99

shoretyus said:


> Very nice job


Thanks. With the crowd that was there, we just didn't have the need to blast everyone out, and have them sitting 100' away because it was too loud up front. There was a good turnout, lots of people in the shade. It's a fun gig and I'm glad to be a part of it. 

Heres a video from a couple weeks ago, a benefit/memorial gig. Turned out pretty good. I'd like to raise my mains about a foot, get those horns up. I have some road cases that will work nicely, the problem is finding some ratchet straps to hold everything down. I have some that work with the current setup, but I need longer ones. Might end up going with blue straps of I can't find anything else. 

Always strap your mains to your subs. 

http://youtu.be/iaAg7hNYQGc

- - - Updated - - -



Milkman said:


> I started using wireless for guitar in the 80s (when they sucked pretty hard) and have never looked back. They're actually pretty good these days. I keep one good wireless mic but I seldom have a guy in my bands who only sings. I prefer that EVERYbody sings.
> 
> Today I secured IEMs for two bodies. I'll need a couple more to complete my elimination of all stage wedges (four piece band).
> 
> That will be a great, great day.
> 
> My rig a few years ago.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bwgl1jgrPZc
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dy64MmHHk2k


Looks like a great setup! I can't expand much beyond what I have without getting a bigger trailer, and if I do, I'll be moving to some warehouse space for everything. Not ready to take that plunge yet. I have 2 line6 wireless. Thinking if getting a couple more. That would make life much easier for setup and tear down.


----------



## Milkman

robare99 said:


> Thanks. With the crowd that was there, we just didn't have the need to blast everyone out, and have them sitting 100' away because it was too loud up front. There was a good turnout, lots of people in the shade. It's a fun gig and I'm glad to be a part of it.
> 
> Heres a video from a couple weeks ago, a benefit/memorial gig. Turned out pretty good. I'd like to raise my mains about a foot, get those horns up. I have some road cases that will work nicely, the problem is finding some ratchet straps to hold everything down. I have some that work with the current setup, but I need longer ones. Might end up going with blue straps of I can't find anything else.
> 
> Always strap your mains to your subs.
> 
> http://youtu.be/iaAg7hNYQGc
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like a great setup! I can't expand much beyond what I have without getting a bigger trailer, and if I do, I'll be moving to some warehouse space for everything. Not ready to take that plunge yet. I have 2 line6 wireless. Thinking if getting a couple more. That would make life much easier for setup and tear down.


Thanks man.

As long as it fits in my trailer I'm happy, and there's still room in there for more.

The reason I doubled my stacks was not only to be able to play bigger rooms, but to more evenly distribute sound even in clubs. It results in a larger point of origin for the people in the seats. It allows me to run the mains with tons of head room and not slaughter people sitting directly in the line of fire(well, not as much anyway).

In fact, the added drivers seem to make themselves even more useful when working with acoustic or let's say "evolved" bands with woodwinds, keys......finesse?


----------



## robare99

Milkman said:


> Thanks man.
> 
> As long as it fits in my trailer I'm happy, and there's still room in there for more.
> 
> The reason I doubled my stacks was not only to be able to play bigger rooms, but to more evenly distribute sound even in clubs. It results in a larger point of origin for the people in the seats. It allows me to run the mains with tons of head room and not slaughter people sitting directly in the line of fire(well, not as much anyway).
> 
> In fact, the added drivers seem to make themselves even more useful when working with acoustic or let's say "evolved" bands with woodwinds, keys......finesse?



For sure. The places I usually provide for aren't real big so I have plenty of headroom. I use a center fill speaker and sometimes side fills depending on the room.


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## Bobby1note

Well,,,, this thread is going nowhere fast.:sFun_dancing:

So far I've seen a few sensible posts, and some bordering on the outright ridiculous. When I see posts that suggest the soundman doesn't deserve 1/5 of a 4-piece bands' pay, it becomes virtually pointless for any soundman to respond to a thread like this.

I'll try writing a separate post, or thread on "specific" sound-systems, but for the moment, I'd like to focus on the need for a soundman, as well as the 2-way relationship between bands and the sound-provider.

First off,,,, the soundman is your audiences "ears". He hears how you sound in the room,,,, and that's often VERY DIFFERENT from how you sound "on stage".

Second,,,,, the "soundman" may have two roles,,,, mixing the gig,,,, as well as providing the PA system. Providing the gear means loading up a trailer at home,,, transporting the gear to the gig hours before the band arrives,,,unloading the trailer,,, setting up the FOH rig, monitors, lights, mic-stands,, running snakes, cables, mics, etc.. Then you try to do your best "mixing" a gig where the musicians are reluctant to do so much as a basic pre-show sound-check,,,, and when the show's over, and everyone has left,,,, the soundman is often left alone to tear down the rigs, load everything back into the trailer, get home and unpack the trailer.

Is the soundman "worth" 1/5th of a 4-piece bands' pay??????????

If it were a simple 'walk on" for the soundman,,,, meaning that the band provides ALL the gear,,, set-up,,,, tear-down,,,, transport, etc, then 1/5th is cool. Hell, I'd even do it for free *for the right bunch of guys*. If someone on the other hand, suggests that I need to be the gear-provider, and board engineer, for 1/5 of the pay,,,, I won't waste another minute talking to that guy, because they just won't "get it". That band is better off mixing their own show from stage, because they're just not ready for a soundman. They just have no idea what the work-load and investment is.

For what it's worth, I consider my P/A gear to be somewhat mediocre at best. I have 16.5 kilowatts of P/A speakers; 4 subs, and 14 active mains and monitors. 6 consoles (digital and analogue), basic LED lighting, snakes,,, sub-snakes,, 50 or so mic cables,,,, 70 mics,,,, and the list goes on. The entire system probably cost somewhere north of the $40.k mark, and I wouldn't dream of attempting a gig for more than 350 people,,, at best..

I'll try posting some specific PA system recommendations in a bit; I've got company coming, so I'll be back later.


----------



## jtienhaara

Bobby1note said:


> Well,,,, this thread is going nowhere fast.:sFun_dancing:
> 
> ...rant rant rant...


Wow, that was a helpful post.


----------



## Bobby1note

jtienhaara said:


> Wow, that was a helpful post.


re-read the third, and the last paragraphs.

There's not a soundman here, who didn't "get" what I was talking about.


----------



## Milkman

Bobby1note said:


> Well,,,, this thread is going nowhere fast.:sFun_dancing:
> 
> So far I've seen a few sensible posts, and some bordering on the outright ridiculous. When I see posts that suggest the soundman doesn't deserve 1/5 of a 4-piece bands' pay, it becomes virtually pointless for any soundman to respond to a thread like this.
> 
> I'll try writing a separate post, or thread on "specific" sound-systems, but for the moment, I'd like to focus on the need for a soundman, as well as the 2-way relationship between bands and the sound-provider.
> 
> First off,,,, the soundman is your audiences "ears". He hears how you sound in the room,,,, and that's often VERY DIFFERENT from how you sound "on stage".
> 
> Second,,,,, the "soundman" may have two roles,,,, mixing the gig,,,, as well as providing the PA system. Providing the gear means loading up a trailer at home,,, transporting the gear to the gig hours before the band arrives,,,unloading the trailer,,, setting up the FOH rig, monitors, lights, mic-stands,, running snakes, cables, mics, etc.. Then you try to do your best "mixing" a gig where the musicians are reluctant to do so much as a basic pre-show sound-check,,,, and when the show's over, and everyone has left,,,, the soundman is often left alone to tear down the rigs, load everything back into the trailer, get home and unpack the trailer.
> 
> Is the soundman "worth" 1/5th of a 4-piece bands' pay??????????
> 
> If it were a simple 'walk on" for the soundman,,,, meaning that the band provides ALL the gear,,, set-up,,,, tear-down,,,, transport, etc, then 1/5th is cool. Hell, I'd even do it for free *for the right bunch of guys*. If someone on the other hand, suggests that I need to be the gear-provider, and board engineer, for 1/5 of the pay,,,, I won't waste another minute talking to that guy, because they just won't "get it". That band is better off mixing their own show from stage, because they're just not ready for a soundman. They just have no idea what the work-load and investment is.
> 
> For what it's worth, I consider my P/A gear to be somewhat mediocre at best. I have 16.5 kilowatts of P/A speakers; 4 subs, and 14 active mains and monitors. 6 consoles (digital and analogue), basic LED lighting, snakes,,, sub-snakes,, 50 or so mic cables,,,, 70 mics,,,, and the list goes on. The entire system probably cost somewhere north of the $40.k mark, and I wouldn't dream of attempting a gig for more than 350 people,,, at best..
> 
> I'll try posting some specific PA system recommendations in a bit; I've got company coming, so I'll be back later.



I agree with much of what you say above. I'm a little confused by this statement however.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"For what it's worth, I consider my P/A gear to be somewhat mediocre at best. I have 16.5 kilowatts of P/A speakers; 4 subs, and 14 active mains and monitors. 6 consoles (digital and analogue), basic LED lighting, snakes,,, sub-snakes,, 50 or so mic cables,,,, 70 mics,,,, and the list goes on. The entire system probably cost somewhere north of the $40.k mark, and I wouldn't dream of attempting a gig for more than 350 people,,, at best.."
------------------------------------------------------------–--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I assume the 16.5 kw of PA speakers is divided up into a number of systems, but with that kind of power you can do much more than a 350 seat hall.

With my 13KW system I can easily do 1000 bodies with headroom to spare.


----------



## jtienhaara

Bobby1note said:


> re-read the third, and the last paragraphs.
> 
> There's not a soundman here, who didn't "get" what I was talking about.


You're in a service industry. If you complain about bands who don't want to do sound checks, instead of coaxing them into doing the sound checks, then perhaps you don't understand that THEY ARE YOUR CUSTOMERS. Everything you posted is exactly what I hate about sound guys. Bitter, grumpy, anti-social, not interested in making things work smoothly for everyone, just interested in bitching about how hard life is for them.

Why don't you post some tips for live sound, instead of complaining about how hard your life is and how terrible your customers are.


----------



## ronmac

...another "helpfull" post, innit?


----------



## jtienhaara

You're right. It's too bad, I was enjoying this thread when it was full of constructive suggestions. Oh well. Unsubscribed.


----------



## Bobby1note

jtienhaara said:


> You're in a service industry. If you complain about bands who don't want to do sound checks, instead of coaxing them into doing the sound checks, then perhaps you don't understand that THEY ARE YOUR CUSTOMERS. Everything you posted is exactly what I hate about sound guys. Bitter, grumpy, anti-social, not interested in making things work smoothly for everyone, just interested in bitching about how hard life is for them.
> 
> Why don't you post some tips for live sound, instead of complaining about how hard your life is and how terrible your customers are.


My post was directly referring to some of the "negative" comments I had read in this thread; those which refer to the "worth" of a soundman. (ie; is the soundman "worth" 1/5 of a 4-piece bands' pay?) Any "band" that asks that question, is simply not ready for a soundman. They're better off mixing from stage, and that can open up a BIG can of worms. (who "buys" the PA? Who "owns" the PA if the band splits? etc.) If one band-member owns the PA, does he get a bigger share of the "Pay"?

"Soundman" can mean a lot of things,,,, which is why I made the distinction between a "soundman"(ie; mixing only, on a PA provided by the band), and a "sound provider". (provides the PA as well as mixing the show).

Furthermore, I specifically pointed out yesterday, that I had company coming, and that I had to cut my post short. In my follow-up, things should sound a lil' more "positive". :smile-new:


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## 4345567

__________________


----------



## Bobby1note

Well,,,, how do I start? There's so many aspects to being a soundman, or sound-provider. I'm trying to figure out how a "sticky" (a good idea btw) should be handled. Maybe a thread titled " My P/A gear, and how I run it", or something along those lines.

From my perspective, providing sound is all about quality crowd coverage. Everything depends on the size of the crowd,,,, crowd behavior (crowd noise),,, type of venue (outdoor/indoor), and of course, the genre of music. Obviously, a solo acoustic-guitar act won't have the same requirements as a death-metal band, etc. A dance club may require a very different approach compared to a resto-bar,,, or a wedding,,, or a corporate gig, where speeches may play an important role.

As for the gear itself, it can range from a simple "vocals only" PA,,, to a high impact "kick-you-in-the-chest" hard-rock show for hundreds,,,, or a hi-resolution rig more suitable to an acoustic jazz act, with a quietly seated audience,,,,.etc. The mics you choose, may also play a very important role in dealing with stage-noise, or intelligibility, or dealing with specific tone requirements from various instruments. Then you have the subject of M.I.-grade vs concert-grade, vs tour-grade speakers. It's a BIG subject, and definitely not a subject that can be fully covered in a single post.


----------



## Bobby1note

ronmac said:


> One of the biggest factors for creating a good live sound is to get the group to think as a "band", not a stage loaded with "players". As Milkman stated earlier, keeping the stage volume at a reasonable level is an absolute must, especially in a small venue.
> 
> A group that I often support (drums with backing vocals, electric guitar, bass and single vocalist) can easily be supported in a 150 seat bar with two stage monitors (one for the drummer/vocalist and one for the vocalist and guitar player) and two powered 12s out front. They only need vocals in the monitors and they only push vocals through the front speakers. They know how to control and direct their instruments/amps for good on-stage and house balance. They work as a group and keep the dynamics under control. Once I dial in the levels my job is done for the night.
> 
> They could easily buy the little gear that it takes to support themselves, but they continue to hire me because a) they love walking in, playing, walking out and b) they actually value my contribution and the security and peace of mind I provide them in showing up with good (and in this case, minimal) gear and the ability to use it. They pay me well for doing almost nothing.
> 
> On the other hand... there are groups that need a lot more gear to make them sound a lot worse.


EXCELLENT advice. Good post!

- - - Updated - - -



Milkman said:


> This is my main system (not my backline). It can be scaled down to half or less for small rooms.
> 
> It's middle of the road stuff and is more than capable of doing shows up to theatre size. I've even done an arena (hockey rink). Power is up to 13kw mains and 2.4 kw monitors. Lots of auxiliaries. 32 channels and fully stereo (for what that's worth).
> 
> What matters most is the guy behind the board.


Good post Milkman. I especially like the fact that you mentioned "scalability".


----------



## 335Bob

Milkman said:


> Much of what will be suggested in this thread will be opinion.
> 
> Here's mine.
> 
> No matter how small the gig is, always have a sound man. Mixing from stage is reactive and often corrections are made after the set.
> 
> It's hard to imagine money spent more effectively on ensuring you get the best sound out front.


I agree, always have a sound man. In essence, he's a band member, even though he's behind the mixer. Without him, the risk of the sound going south is high.


----------



## Bobby1note

robare99 said:


> Unitys over LS800's?


Nice rig Robare99. One of my rigs is U15P's over LS-801P's. It's nice to have the built-in time-alignment feature on the active Unity's (U15P). It really gives you the flexibility of using different bass-bins, such as front-loaded,,,front-loaded w/rear horns,,, or horn-loaded bins.

Those LS800's (and LS-801's) sure kick butt for the price, don't they. :smile-new:


----------



## Bobby1note

Milkman said:


> I agree with much of what you say above. I'm a little confused by this statement however.
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> "For what it's worth, I consider my P/A gear to be somewhat mediocre at best. I have 16.5 kilowatts of P/A speakers; 4 subs, and 14 active mains and monitors. 6 consoles (digital and analogue), basic LED lighting, snakes,,, sub-snakes,, 50 or so mic cables,,,, 70 mics,,,, and the list goes on. The entire system probably cost somewhere north of the $40.k mark, and I wouldn't dream of attempting a gig for more than 350 people,,, at best.."
> ------------------------------------------------------------–--------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I assume the 16.5 kw of PA speakers is divided up into a number of systems, but with that kind of power you can do much more than a 350 seat hall.
> 
> With my 13KW system I can easily do 1000 bodies with headroom to spare.


Yeah, you're right Milkman. The 16.5kw covers the mains, subs, and monitors. There's a bit of scalability involved too. It all depends on what the guys on stage need in the way of monitoring (floor monitors/ side-fill, etc), and of course, whether or not I need center-fills for the front rows of the audience, etc.

When I mentioned "mediocre", I was referring to the quality of my cabinets. I'm basically running a mix of M.I.-grade boxes, ranging from eight Yorkville NX55P's, four Yorkville Elite EF-500PB's, a pair of Yorkville Unity U15P 3-ways, a pair of Yorkie LS-720P subs, and a pair of Yorkville LS801P's.

I don't mean to imply "mediocre" performance, relative to that class of speaker. I'm just pointing out that they're not in the same league as some of the hi-end NEXO and d&B Audiotechnik rigs I've looked at.(tour-grade rigs like NEXO PS and RS series, or d&B Audiotechnik Q7's etc.)

As far as audience capacity goes,,, well that depends on so many factors. Outdoor/indoor,,,genre of music,,, whether you're primarily covering the dance-floor,,,etc. "Being heard" by a 1000 person audience is one thing,,, but delivering concert-grade punch to the back row of a 1000 person outdoor gig, can be quite another.


----------



## Bobby1note

335Bob said:


> I agree, always have a sound man. *In essence, he's a band member*, even though he's behind the mixer. Without him, the risk of the sound going south is high.


This is a VERY good point 335Bob. Any soundman worth his salt, is going to bust his butt trying to make that band sound as good as humanly possible. Bands that approach the relationship in a professional manner, know this from the outset. 

Where the relationship sometimes turns sour, is when you have prima-donna wannabee's, with a pre-determined agenda, needing to show their superiority over the very guy they should be working "with",,,, not "against".


----------



## Bobby1note

jtienhaara said:


> Holy crap! I can see why you guys recommend hiring sound guys. The ones I've dealt with had equipment more like this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But in this condition:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you say the sound guy's ears are way more important than his equipment... But sometimes his equipment is a sign of 1) how much experience he has and 2) how much he cares about his job.
> 
> I'd hire you two in a heartbeat!


"Looks" can sometimes be deceiving. That said, there's also a lot of DJ wannabee's out there, who profess to be "soundmen".

The best system is the world, is not going to make a crappy band play well, or sound good.

If I'm working with "pro's", I'll provide those guys with the best equipment I've got. For example, I may put a pair of Sennheiser MD-421's on floor-toms, and a pair of C-451b's on overheads, with Sennheiser 902, 904's, and 905 on kick, rack-toms, and snare. That's over $3k. in mics covering a single instrument. I sure as heck wouldn't risk that level of gear with a drummer that's got no control over his "flying" drum-sticks, for an $80. pay-day.

Working with a soundman (or sound provider), is a 2-way street. If the band has a professional approach, it goes a long way in developing a positive and productive relationship. Hiring "as cheaply as possible", is often a recipe for disaster. Last-minute walk-ons, with no sound-checks, is just not the way to advancing the bands' goals.


----------



## robare99

Bobby1note said:


> Nice rig Robare99. One of my rigs is U15P's over LS-801P's. It's nice to have the built-in time-alignment feature on the active Unity's (U15P). It really gives you the flexibility of using different bass-bins, such as front-loaded,,,front-loaded w/rear horns,,, or horn-loaded bins.
> 
> Those LS800's (and LS-801's) sure kick butt for the price, don't they. :smile-new:


I've debated replacing my FOH, it's 10 years old and has served me well. Looked at some U15p's but lifting them onto a pair of subs would not be fun by myself. I have no problem with the unpowered U15's though. If I picked up another pair of YX12's then I would have a complete replacent for my monitor rig. I'll use YX15's for the drummer and bass player, 2 - 3 YX12's for the rest and a YX12 for a center fill. Basically up to 6 wedges at any given time. On the one hand fresh monitors and FOH would be pleasing to the eye. On the other hand that eye is usually in a dark bar, where the success of the gig is how much beer you have to clean off the various cables. 










So I'm not sure if they need to be replaced yet or not. These are my typical house sound gigs, where I provide sound, they can get pretty crazy!

http://youtu.be/MVguQTagB8I

http://youtu.be/6DdbvbyuO_0


----------



## Bobby1note

greco said:


> Not wishing to derail the thread, but what would a sound man (person) typically charge to attend a gig at a bar and do sound/mixing for 4 band members (vocals and guitar, drums, bass guitar, guitar) from 9:00 PM until 1:00 a.m.?
> 
> Do the sound people typically supply any of the gear needed to do the mixing? (i.e., boards, snakes, etc).
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


Good question Dave,

Well, it really depends on exactly what is required. The band essentially "rents" the gear from the sound-provider, as well as that sound-providers' time.

Let's say for example you have a 4-piece rock-band playing a 100-seat venue. (local bar). Well, in some cases, the band may need a vocals-only PA. (The back-line amplifiers carry the room). A pair of 12" mains may be all you need, Where it starts getting a lil' more complex, is when you start feeding the system with low-frequency content (keyboards, synths, kick-drum, floor-toms, etc) In that situation, you absolutely need a good sub (or two). Those subs may be compact subs, or a much higher output horn-loaded sub. Naturally, those bigger subs will cost a bit more.

When you're looking at the gear you need, you have to itemize. How many vocal-mics? How many vocal mic-stands? What size mixer(number of channels)? External processing??? Is the show going to be recorded? Does the band need floor-monitors, and if so, how many? Does the band need lighting? What speakers and stands are required for front-of-house? Will the band be responsible for set-up and tear-down? Pick-up and delivery? Return? What are the AC power-requirements?

Basically, every piece of gear, as well as the "services" required of the sound-provider, will be itemized in a contract called a "rider". Mixing a show can be a very small part of what's involved. You can get a pretty good idea of equipment-rental costs by checking out the rental links at Long & McQuade.

If the console engineer does a "walk on" (band provides all the equipment) mixing fees may vary widely. The engineer may want to cover travel expenses, parking, food, etc. If it's close-by, then it's usually just a share of the bands' pay, or perhaps a basic flat-fee. It may cost a bit more on weekends. There's probably lots of guys out there, who'll mix for $100., and may even throw in some of their own gear(console). A lot depends on the relationship between that soundman and the band,,,, and whether the soundman has better prospects available elsewhere. (supply and demand). It'll also vary depending what area you live in. (metropolitain vs rural)


----------



## Bobby1note

robare99 said:


> I've debated replacing my FOH, it's 10 years old and has served me well. Looked at some U15p's but lifting them onto a pair of subs would not be fun by myself. I have no problem with the unpowered U15's though. If I picked up another pair of YX12's then I would have a complete replacent for my monitor rig. I'll use YX15's for the drummer and bass player, 2 - 3 YX12's for the rest and a YX12 for a center fill. Basically up to 6 wedges at any given time. On the one hand fresh monitors and FOH would be pleasing to the eye. On the other hand that eye is usually in a dark bar, where the success of the gig is how much beer you have to clean off the various cables.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I'm not sure if they need to be replaced yet or not. These are my typical house sound gigs, where I provide sound, they can get pretty crazy!
> 
> http://youtu.be/MVguQTagB8I
> 
> http://youtu.be/6DdbvbyuO_0


The newer generation gear sure "looks" good, doesn't it. Especially with all the crazy power-ratings they're claiming these days. It's just nuts. Heck, if your system is doing the job, I wouldn't change a thing.

Last year, I came wayyyy toooo close to upgrading my own gear. (NEXO PS-series mains and subs). Great system, but at my age, and dealing with the musicians I know, I just couldn't justify the expense. ($15k for two 12" mains, and two compact subs). I'd need the right clientele to justify that kind of expense,,,, but boy oh boy,,, what a system. The 3 "L's"; loud, linear, and light-weight.


----------



## robare99

No doubt hey. I'm also drooling over the new Yamaha QL5 but I could never justify it for the market I'm in. 



Still fun to daydream. This years big ticket item is new shingles on my house. 


:,(


----------



## Bobby1note

robare99 said:


> No doubt hey. I'm also drooling over the new Yamaha QL5 but I could never justify it for the market I'm in.
> 
> 
> 
> Still fun to daydream. *This years big ticket item is new shingles on my house. *
> 
> 
> :,(


I'm in the same boat. I've been putting off re-shingling my roof,,,, so this year, I put the clamp on the wallet. I bought a bunch of guitar pedals earlier this year, so that's it for me in 2014.


----------



## Milkman

Bobby1note said:


> Yeah, you're right Milkman. The 16.5kw covers the mains, subs, and monitors. There's a bit of scalability involved too. It all depends on what the guys on stage need in the way of monitoring (floor monitors/ side-fill, etc), and of course, whether or not I need center-fills for the front rows of the audience, etc.
> 
> When I mentioned "mediocre", I was referring to the quality of my cabinets. I'm basically running a mix of M.I.-grade boxes, ranging from eight Yorkville NX55P's, four Yorkville Elite EF-500PB's, a pair of Yorkville Unity U15P 3-ways, a pair of Yorkie LS-720P subs, and a pair of Yorkville LS801P's.
> 
> I don't mean to imply "mediocre" performance, relative to that class of speaker. I'm just pointing out that they're not in the same league as some of the hi-end NEXO and d&B Audiotechnik rigs I've looked at.(tour-grade rigs like NEXO PS and RS series, or d&B Audiotechnik Q7's etc.)
> 
> As far as audience capacity goes,,, well that depends on so many factors. Outdoor/indoor,,,genre of music,,, whether you're primarily covering the dance-floor,,,etc. "Being heard" by a 1000 person audience is one thing,,, but delivering concert-grade punch to the back row of a 1000 person outdoor gig, can be quite another.


Point taken regarding audience capacity. The front loaded system I use doesn't do long throw as well as I would like in the big rooms. 

It gets loud in the front in order to get good penetration throughout the room.

Outdoors takes a ridiculous amount of power and cabs to get any real thump. I'm happy to get a clear balanced mix outdoors.

Also, as I'm sure you'll agree, the lay of the land, buildings, bodies and even wind will affect what you hear out front.


----------



## robare99

Bobby1note said:


> I'm in the same boat. I've been putting off re-shingling my roof,,,, so this year, I put the clamp on the wallet. I bought a bunch of guitar pedals earlier this year, so that's it for me in 2014.


I really should have done it last year, but I was expanding my light rig. 

Priorities lol. But now this is the year of the roof.


----------



## Bobby1note

Milkman said:


> Point taken regarding audience capacity. The front loaded system I use doesn't do long throw as well as I would like in the big rooms.
> 
> It gets loud in the front in order to get good penetration throughout the room.
> 
> Outdoors takes a ridiculous amount of power and cabs to get any real thump. I'm happy to get a clear balanced mix outdoors.
> 
> Also, as I'm sure you'll agree, the lay of the land, buildings, bodies and even wind will affect what you hear out front.


Yep, I agree 100%. When you really need "throw", you've got to get those HF horns up high, so they don't blast the eardrums of those sitting close. Properly angled vertical line-array cabinets do a good job, but then, that's what they're designed for. I haven't "gone there",,,,,yet.:smile-new: My Yorkie EF500PS have 60x40 degree horns w/2" throat, and those boxes array quite well for horizontal coverage (2 per side), or in a 3-box center-cluster.

Stage-mounted subs can be a bit of an issue however, especially if the tops are mounted on the subs with 1 sub per-side, and set back significantly from the front edge of an elevated stage. The set-back can cause boundary cancellations (which is sometimes a good thing). When set apart, the subs don't provide a "cardioid" sound-pattern, so, you can end up with power-alleys, and off-axis cancellation zones. Centre-clustering the subs at ground-level will permit higher output, and a more controlled and even "cardioid" dispersion-pattern. The trade-off is, they then have to be time-aligned with the mains.(sometimes). Mind you, lifting 90 lb boxes onto stands is not for the faint-of-heart or sore-of-back.(like me) :smile-new:

And yes, I agree that lay of the land, bodies, buildings, trees, wind, humidity levels, etc, can all affect sound.


----------



## robare99

What do you think of the yorkville paralines?


----------



## Bobby1note

robare99 said:


> What do you think of the yorkville paralines?


The ParaLines are a surprising box. I briefly listened to those at my dealers showroom last year. The demo that the sales-rep gave me was really ho-hum. The store was full of shoppers, and I guess he didn't want to bother them, so I walked away, somewhat underwhelmed.

Fast forward an hour or so, and one of the store-owners' clients (discotheque owner) walked in. This time, the store owner ran them full throttle. I was standing outside at the time, getting some fresh air (ok,,,having a smoke,,,sigh), and I was shocked at the sound-pressure that compact system was putting out. You really have to listen to those boxes driven HARD in order to appreciate what they can do.

One of the nifty features of the Paralines and ParaSource boxes, is that they have multi-band limiting. This is something fairly recent in this market segment, and something you'd previously find only in hi-end rigs. What it does is, it limits only a narrow band of the frequency range, without affecting adjacent bands. For example, if you're "peaking" the lows, only the low bandwidth will be reduced, without affecting the vocal range. VERY cool feature to have, especially when pushing the limits of a box..

I have a bit of an issue however, with calling these ParaLine boxes "line arrays". They're actually a CCV (constant-curvature) line array. Those are primarily designed for use in front of "banked" seating, such as an outdoor grandstand, or in a theatre with sloped seating. Mind you, it can be handy when you need additional SPL on a dance-floor, combined with a certain degree of throw to the rest of the venue. If you were to "stack" 3 mains on each side, the top box is virtually firing at the ceiling,,, so you'd want to keep it at no more than 2 boxes per side.


----------



## robare99

Yeah I see that they limit them to 2 a side. That's another thing about them. They are $1700 each, the same price as a passive U15. I like the weight, the smaller size, the 110 degree dispersion, they are powered and are the same price as the U15's. I'm to the point of considering a second pair of U15's and relegating my current ones to backup status. I do have enough power to power both sets. I wonder if I should start moving into the paralines, and end up with 2 per side. 

I can't see my rig growing much beyond that...


----------



## Milkman

robare99 said:


> Yeah I see that they limit them to 2 a side. That's another thing about them. They are $1700 each, the same price as a passive U15. I like the weight, the smaller size, the 110 degree dispersion, they are powered and are the same price as the U15's. I'm to the point of considering a second pair of U15's and relegating my current ones to backup status. I do have enough power to power both sets. I wonder if I should start moving into the paralines, and end up with 2 per side.
> 
> I can't see my rig growing much beyond that...


They limit them to two per stand. Is there any reason you couldn't double the array on each side (side by side)?


----------



## Bobby1note

Milkman said:


> They limit them to two per stand. Is there any reason you couldn't double the array on each side (side by side)?


I'm not sure I understand the question. By "doubling" the array on each side", are you suggesting two speaker cabinets per stand, with two stands side by side, for a total of four speaker cabinets per side of stage? If so, that would not be workable due to horizontal dispersion pattern overlap, which would in turn cause comb-filtering.

The PSA-1's are designed with a very tight 15 degree vertical dispersion pattern, which allows you to mount two boxes on top of each other without vertical pattern overlap from the box beneath. The horizontal dispersion however, is 110 degrees, so placing two sets side by side would cause a criss-crossing overlap in the horizontal dispersion pattern. resulting in phase issues/time alignment/ comb-filtering.


----------



## Robboman

Started writing, came back off and on.. now I wrote a huge essay! Oh well.

Back to the OP:


Hamstrung said:


> I'd like this to be a "how to" section on setting up and mixing for live performances. Preferably keep this to small venues for our "bar band" crowd.


I have a lot of experience and some thoughts that seem contrary to opinions here so far. So I thought I should contribute.

IMO you absolutely do NOT need 40K of gear and a soundman just to go play bar gigs, and I'll explain why. 

I played in and also took care of live sound for a fairly successful 'small venue bar band' for 15-ish years. We always got compliments and almost always got re-booked, largely (IMO) due to our consistently good live sound. I learned first-hand what really works, what factors are very important, and what is not, so much. In my early days when I first got the band running I learned all about live sound basics. Mics, amps, ohms, gain-staging, etc. It helped that I was working in a music store with older pro guys who knew what they were doing. The store also had PA rentals, so I got to rent cheap and try out different stuff. One of the service techs at the store was a great ex-touring soundman, he was union and mixed monitors or FOH for big touring shows when called upon. He really knew his stuff. He would help out local bar bands doing setup, soundcheck and mixing the first set for a small fee (when he was avail). So I got him to help set up one of our earliest gigs and I learned TON of things just by shadowing him and asking questions as we set up and soundchecked. One of the many things I learned from him was that, if the stage gear (and stage volume) stays consistent after you dial in a good mix during the first few songs, you really don't need a soundman to sit there behind the board all night\weekend. Not at the bar-band level. This coming from a veteran soundman .

With that experience as a start, we were soon gigging regularly, aquiring our own (used) PA gear and mixing ourselves. 

Here's some more educated opinions to consider. YMMV.


1). Minimize your stage volume as much as you reasonably can. Everything will sound cleaner out in front of the PA that way. Aim your guitar cab at your own head, not the back of your ankles, and try not to aim it directly at your other guitarist or singer. Then you won't need it as loud, and others on stage won't need their own amps\monitors as loud to hear them over top of yours. 


2). Get your own gear, buy it all USED\cheap if possible. 
If you end up gigging regularly you'll be money ahead over time. And I mean WAY ahead  My bandmates always seemed more broke than I was, so I soon decided I'd buy all the PA myself and rent it back to the band when we gigged. The rest of the band got a great deal (at least half what rentals would cost anywhere else). But I got paid that bit extra at every gig. After a couple years I earned back all the cash I paid out in the first place and was still earning. Since I'd bought all my gear used it was still worth about the same. WIN! 

But the benefits of owning your PA rig go well beyond cost savings. After a bunch of gigs you become so familiar with setup that you don't even need to think. Just plug everything in and power up. I would leave the mixer untouched between gigs, and we were consistent with our stage gear\levels. After a while, we would just roll in, set up, mic everything same as always and BAM. It would sound good instantly, without touching a single knob or fader. Often it was only a matter of tweaking room EQ.

OK, as for the gear and live sound in general:

3). Castors under everything heavy  (minimize lifting and trips back to the van during loading)

4). Rack your mixer and outboard gear together, pre-connected in one big rack. (minimize the number of pieces \ cables to connect at gig setup).

5). MONO FOH. Don't even consider stereo until you are playing theatres, sheds or stadiums. I'll skip the detailed rant about this.. there's lots of that on the web, but nothing will sway my opinion - you don't need stereo in a bar band PA and you WILL benefit from much simpler mono setup.

6). You need BASS in your PA. Lots of it. IMO, you should get at least one pair of subs, at least single 15's, but 18's are best. Even for rather small venues. I've found that newbie live musicians often have a hard time getting their heads around subs. After all, the band is already loud before PA, one pair of small speakers on pole stands can be wickedly loud, so why do you need subs? Just to beef up the bass and kick drum? is it worth it? IMO, the answer is YES. A Resoundingly YES. Filling in the bottom end with good subs makes ALL the difference between sounding 'loud' and sounding 'great' as a band. 

7). IMO - esp with subs, always mic or DI the guitar and bass rigs and mic up at least some of the drums. In all but the smallest rooms. This is not really about 'volume'. I always see this on forums.. "I don't need to mic guitar amp because it's already loud enough". Yes, I'm aware your amp is loud enough to blow the heads off everyone in the room all by itself if you just crank it up. That's not the point. You mic it to make it better, not louder. Aim your amp at your own head and only as loud as you need, then use the mic\PA to evenly disperse your guitar sound throughout the room, EQ as needed to fix the mix. It just sounds better with everything mic'd. For the drums, again - I know they are already loud acoustically. You don't mic them to make them significantly louder, but to EQ, even them out and disperse to the room. You don't need to mic every element on the kit and use 20+ mixer channels. I used to run only 4 mics most of the time: kick, snare, one mic between the middle toms and one for the floor tom. No dedicated hi-hat mic (snare mic picks up plenty of hat). No overheads, they would sound too 'roomy' and don't really work over a crowded bar stage. The cymbals are already so loud the snare and tom mics kind of pick them up enough. Most critical are kick and snare.

8). EQs and compression. Unless you have a modern digital mixer with everything built in, make sure you have enough space in your rack for EQs and comps. IMO, these are mandatory. My preference was two 31-band graphs (1/3rd oct), and spend time really learning to use them! One for FOH and one for monitors. Don't settle for 2/3 or those little 7-band graphs built into cheap powered mixers. 31 band is fine enough to notch out feedback without ruining the sound, and you can still even out the room response. Comps.. IMO, you NEED to squash the vocals, sometimes the bass and the kick drum (depending on your drummers foot consistency) I know many would disagree but I used to also compress the whole mix output.. more subtly, but it just seems to help.

9). Go easy on effects, IMO don't use a ton of reverb. Every room has reflections and other acoustic issues, reverbs tend to muddy up your sound more than anything and makes any feedback points even worse.

10). If you have an analog mixer, label channels clearly by the faders and inputs! When you have an awesome mix all dialed in, 'Save' it by taking a photo of your board. This is a huge time saver at your next gig if your board gets reset and you want to quickly put all your settings back as they were. Keep the photo on your phone, or keep a print in your rack with the mixer for reference.

11). Get a light for the back of your rack.. small LED or something. At least keep a little flashlight on your keychain. 

12). Soundman vs 'Mix from stage'. I commented on this earlier, but I've done hundreds and hundreds of successful (though smaller) gigs without a soundman. I would recommend getting one when you start out, but once you learn your own your gear and stay consistent from gig to gig, you can manage without a soundman. Walk the room with Wireless guitar and I would set my vocal channel based against on how the other guys vocals were set. Get everything set.. then forget about it and play your show. Early on we brought a soundman who wanted to mix actively all night, he would mute vocal mics whn no one was singing, ride faders up and down for solos, etc. This was non-stop trouble, because he would forget to un-mute mics when needed, and forget to push faders back down, etc. Not worth it IMO.


----------



## Milkman

Bobby1note said:


> I'm not sure I understand the question. By "doubling" the array on each side", are you suggesting two speaker cabinets per stand, with two stands side by side, for a total of four speaker cabinets per side of stage? If so, that would not be workable due to horizontal dispersion pattern overlap, which would in turn cause comb-filtering.
> 
> The PSA-1's are designed with a very tight 15 degree vertical dispersion pattern, which allows you to mount two boxes on top of each other without vertical pattern overlap from the box beneath. The horizontal dispersion however, is 110 degrees, so placing two sets side by side would cause a criss-crossing overlap in the horizontal dispersion pattern. resulting in phase issues/time alignment/ comb-filtering.


Right, comb filtering.

So really this is a very limited system, not scaleable at all.

It's basically a deluxe lollypop system.

Thanks for explaining. I guess I was too lazy to read the specs on the system. I did see one in my local store and it looks pretty impressive.


----------



## shoretyus

Great thread, so far. Awesome post Robboman. A great primer. 

I come from the same school as you did 'cept I didn't have the luxury of deals at the store. This topic is a very good example of _"your mileage may vary " _You really have to realize where you are as a band/ performer. Location, location, location. It's 1 1/2 hrs to any kind of rental pa gear so I had no choice but to buy,maintain and store my own. I guess I am that guy ... in the band. 

Would I buy now? .... for a project that might have been together for 4 months or what ever your in .. doubt it. Chances are that a soundman may already know the room your in.
.
That way _"The Grey Haired Heroes" _can concentrate on remembering how to play an F chord and sound the best they can. After the gig is over they will be discovered and will never have to setup a PA ever again let alone change guitar strings...... 

Seems to be a trend of living room tours happening lately too. Different requirements again.


----------



## marauder

^ Thanks for this. We use a sound guy when we can, but sometimes I have to run the show for the band, and I'll take any tips from this thread that I can. 

We've been taking funds generated from playing and buying gear so we can be as self sufficient as possible. One thing we haven't been using is compression, and after reading this thread that will be the next purchase.

We do have guitars & bass into the board to mix to taste, but we've found that the DI's that sit between the head & speaker (Palmer,radial) work way better for us than mic'ing the guitar cabs.

A post on the first page of this thread mentioned wiring the monitors out of phase to reduce feedback - are people doing that, and if so, how? Would love to hear more feedback busting tips!


----------



## Milkman

Robboman said:


> Started writing, came back off and on.. now I wrote a huge essay! Oh well.
> 
> Back to the OP:
> 
> 
> I have a lot of experience and some thoughts that seem contrary to opinions here so far. So I thought I should contribute.
> 
> IMO you absolutely do NOT need 40K of gear and a soundman just to go play bar gigs, and I'll explain why.
> 
> I played in and also took care of live sound for a fairly successful 'small venue bar band' for 15-ish years. We always got compliments and almost always got re-booked, largely (IMO) due to our consistently good live sound. I learned first-hand what really works, what factors are very important, and what is not, so much. In my early days when I first got the band running I learned all about live sound basics. Mics, amps, ohms, gain-staging, etc. It helped that I was working in a music store with older pro guys who knew what they were doing. The store also had PA rentals, so I got to rent cheap and try out different stuff. One of the service techs at the store was a great ex-touring soundman, he was union and mixed monitors or FOH for big touring shows when called upon. He really knew his stuff. He would help out local bar bands doing setup, soundcheck and mixing the first set for a small fee (when he was avail). So I got him to help set up one of our earliest gigs and I learned TON of things just by shadowing him and asking questions as we set up and soundchecked. One of the many things I learned from him was that, if the stage gear (and stage volume) stays consistent after you dial in a good mix during the first few songs, you really don't need a soundman to sit there behind the board all night\weekend. Not at the bar-band level. This coming from a veteran soundman .
> 
> With that experience as a start, we were soon gigging regularly, aquiring our own (used) PA gear and mixing ourselves.
> 
> Here's some more educated opinions to consider. YMMV.
> 
> 
> 1). Minimize your stage volume as much as you reasonably can. Everything will sound cleaner out in front of the PA that way. Aim your guitar cab at your own head, not the back of your ankles, and try not to aim it directly at your other guitarist or singer. Then you won't need it as loud, and others on stage won't need their own amps\monitors as loud to hear them over top of yours.
> 
> 
> 2). Get your own gear, buy it all USED\cheap if possible.
> If you end up gigging regularly you'll be money ahead over time. And I mean WAY ahead  My bandmates always seemed more broke than I was, so I soon decided I'd buy all the PA myself and rent it back to the band when we gigged. The rest of the band got a great deal (at least half what rentals would cost anywhere else). But I got paid that bit extra at every gig. After a couple years I earned back all the cash I paid out in the first place and was still earning. Since I'd bought all my gear used it was still worth about the same. WIN!
> 
> But the benefits of owning your PA rig go well beyond cost savings. After a bunch of gigs you become so familiar with setup that you don't even need to think. Just plug everything in and power up. I would leave the mixer untouched between gigs, and we were consistent with our stage gear\levels. After a while, we would just roll in, set up, mic everything same as always and BAM. It would sound good instantly, without touching a single knob or fader. Often it was only a matter of tweaking room EQ.
> 
> OK, as for the gear and live sound in general:
> 
> 3). Castors under everything heavy  (minimize lifting and trips back to the van during loading)
> 
> 4). Rack your mixer and outboard gear together, pre-connected in one big rack. (minimize the number of pieces \ cables to connect at gig setup).
> 
> 5). MONO FOH. Don't even consider stereo until you are playing theatres, sheds or stadiums. I'll skip the detailed rant about this.. there's lots of that on the web, but nothing will sway my opinion - you don't need stereo in a bar band PA and you WILL benefit from much simpler mono setup.
> 
> 6). You need BASS in your PA. Lots of it. IMO, you should get at least one pair of subs, at least single 15's, but 18's are best. Even for rather small venues. I've found that newbie live musicians often have a hard time getting their heads around subs. After all, the band is already loud before PA, one pair of small speakers on pole stands can be wickedly loud, so why do you need subs? Just to beef up the bass and kick drum? is it worth it? IMO, the answer is YES. A Resoundingly YES. Filling in the bottom end with good subs makes ALL the difference between sounding 'loud' and sounding 'great' as a band.
> 
> 7). IMO - esp with subs, always mic or DI the guitar and bass rigs and mic up at least some of the drums. In all but the smallest rooms. This is not really about 'volume'. I always see this on forums.. "I don't need to mic guitar amp because it's already loud enough". Yes, I'm aware your amp is loud enough to blow the heads off everyone in the room all by itself if you just crank it up. That's not the point. You mic it to make it better, not louder. Aim your amp at your own head and only as loud as you need, then use the mic\PA to evenly disperse your guitar sound throughout the room, EQ as needed to fix the mix. It just sounds better with everything mic'd. For the drums, again - I know they are already loud acoustically. You don't mic them to make them significantly louder, but to EQ, even them out and disperse to the room. You don't need to mic every element on the kit and use 20+ mixer channels. I used to run only 4 mics most of the time: kick, snare, one mic between the middle toms and one for the floor tom. No dedicated hi-hat mic (snare mic picks up plenty of hat). No overheads, they would sound too 'roomy' and don't really work over a crowded bar stage. The cymbals are already so loud the snare and tom mics kind of pick them up enough. Most critical are kick and snare.
> 
> 8). EQs and compression. Unless you have a modern digital mixer with everything built in, make sure you have enough space in your rack for EQs and comps. IMO, these are mandatory. My preference was two 31-band graphs (1/3rd oct), and spend time really learning to use them! One for FOH and one for monitors. Don't settle for 2/3 or those little 7-band graphs built into cheap powered mixers. 31 band is fine enough to notch out feedback without ruining the sound, and you can still even out the room response. Comps.. IMO, you NEED to squash the vocals, sometimes the bass and the kick drum (depending on your drummers foot consistency) I know many would disagree but I used to also compress the whole mix output.. more subtly, but it just seems to help.
> 
> 9). Go easy on effects, IMO don't use a ton of reverb. Every room has reflections and other acoustic issues, reverbs tend to muddy up your sound more than anything and makes any feedback points even worse.
> 
> 10). If you have an analog mixer, label channels clearly by the faders and inputs! When you have an awesome mix all dialed in, 'Save' it by taking a photo of your board. This is a huge time saver at your next gig if your board gets reset and you want to quickly put all your settings back as they were. Keep the photo on your phone, or keep a print in your rack with the mixer for reference.
> 
> 11). Get a light for the back of your rack.. small LED or something. At least keep a little flashlight on your keychain.
> 
> 12). Soundman vs 'Mix from stage'. I commented on this earlier, but I've done hundreds and hundreds of successful (though smaller) gigs without a soundman. I would recommend getting one when you start out, but once you learn your own your gear and stay consistent from gig to gig, you can manage without a soundman. Walk the room with Wireless guitar and I would set my vocal channel based against on how the other guys vocals were set. Get everything set.. then forget about it and play your show. Early on we brought a soundman who wanted to mix actively all night, he would mute vocal mics whn no one was singing, ride faders up and down for solos, etc. This was non-stop trouble, because he would forget to un-mute mics when needed, and forget to push faders back down, etc. Not worth it IMO.


Thanks for a very good post. I agree with almost everything except your last point (12.).

If you work with the same sound man all the time, assuming he's a good one it's just better in lots of ways to have a guy out front mixing dynamically. What you hear during sound check could change considerably when you hit the stage. Effects should be off during dialogue, back on during songs, solos boosted, lots of things that need attention.

I'm just much more confident on stage having someone out front who's sole purpose is to make me sound good.

That of course is just my opinion.


----------



## Bobby1note

Great Post RobboMan,

You might be a bit braver than I am when it comes to "buying used". I'll buy used tops,,,,if,,,,they come with a warranty, and the drivers are all original factory components. When it comes to subs though, I draw the line. If I knew the operator well, then maybe, but I just won't take the risk that the previous owner has beaten the snot out of his subs,,, just to get that "liiiittle bit more" out of them. With commercial subs like the Yorkie TX9s or the SRX dual 18's, I'd probably be a lot less worried.


----------



## Robboman

Milkman said:


> Thanks for a very good post. I agree with almost everything except your last point (12.).
> 
> If you work with the same sound man all the time, assuming he's a good one it's just better in lots of ways to have a guy out front mixing dynamically. What you hear during sound check could change considerably when you hit the stage. Effects should be off during dialogue, back on during songs, solos boosted, lots of things that need attention.
> 
> I'm just much more confident on stage having someone out front who's sole purpose is to make me sound good.
> 
> That of course is just my opinion.


Very valid opinion, and thanks! 

I have worked with lots of good soundmen too, mostly on larger gigs and whenever there's house PA or 3rd-party PA. My 'Mix from stage' pref is only when running my own familiar rig, and the vast majority of those gigs were 50 - 200 people in a bar or small hall. It's great fun loading in nothing but stage gear and just letting a pro sound man take care of everything. Opening slots for touring acts, big corporate events.. etc.

As far as local weekend bar-gig type 'sound men' go, I mean the guys willing to work for typical low bar pay.. I've found that many are anything but pro. They might do more harm than good . If you do find a really good one, he's often booked elsewhere when you need him and eventually he moves up the food chain to start working touring shows and whatnot. So it's tricky to manage, besides all that extra expense at each gig.

Another point to consider. We'd all like to think that the soundman is always obtaining the 'best' possible sound for us out front. But we all have different ears. When you mix music, you first fix any way-bad levels or EQ... fix stuff that is obviously 'wrong'. You quickly get everything sounding 'pretty good'. Then you fine tune each mix element until you think your mix is 'perfect'. The problem is, when you get into that fine-tuning stage, you reach a point where further changes are a matter of opinion.

IMO!


----------



## Robboman

Bobby1note said:


> Great Post RobboMan,
> 
> You might be a bit braver than I am when it comes to "buying used". I'll buy used tops,,,,if,,,,they come with a warranty, and the drivers are all original factory components. When it comes to subs though, I draw the line. If I knew the operator well, then maybe, but I just won't take the risk that the previous owner has beaten the snot out of his subs,,, just to get that "liiiittle bit more" out of them. With commercial subs like the Yorkie TX9s or the SRX dual 18's, I'd probably be a lot less worried.


I've had great luck with used speakers. There's not much to them really.

1). Look for decent brand boxes with field re-coneable drivers. 
2). Check the box itself for structural integrity
3). Listen. If you can, sweep through a sine wave instead of playing music. Sine sweep can pinpoint any frequencies where there might be rattles, distortion or cone-rub. 

If they sound good and you take care of them, they'll most likely last a long time no matter how much they were used. Speaker cones can distort shape or tear around the surround or spider from over excursion, if they get overdriven thermally the voice coil will just fry very quickly. Either way, this stuff is audible (or not audible at all... because it's outright blown . If the speakers actually work, chances are they're OK.

Reconing speakers is pretty easy BTW.. I was shown how back in the 90's, nowadays you can watch Youtube to learn how.. or you can just take your drivers to a shop for a recone. But not all drivers are field re-cone-able, so make sure before you buy. A recone kit is a lot cheaper than a new driver.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW.. I once bought a set of EV speakers and EV subs, cheap and very well used. I ran them hard most weekends for over 6 years, no issues, then sold them for more than what I paid originally. All the while collecting rent from the rest of the band for providing these every gig (no one else wanted in on that).


----------



## robare99

Not sure if I mentioned this or not. 

I always set up in the same order, and I tear down in reverse order. So while all the cables are stacked upon each other, with all the extra in one place, while it might look like a big pile of spaghetti, they are essentially stacked one on the next and will come apart without becoming a huge mess. 

This is the order I use:

Speaker cables to the FOH tops
XLR then power cables to the subs
Speaker cables to the monitors, starting from furthest away
Mic cables to front mics
2 DI's & cables for acoustic and keys
Drum/backline snake (including bass and lead guitar both on the far side of stage)

Then teardown, everything in reverse order.

Everything goes across the front, resulting in a nice clean stage:











Just before I taped everything down










Even a simple bar gig: (same thing, before I tape down a couple rubber mats)


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## Milkman

Robboman said:


> Very valid opinion, and thanks!
> 
> I have worked with lots of good soundmen too, mostly on larger gigs and whenever there's house PA or 3rd-party PA. My 'Mix from stage' pref is only when running my own familiar rig, and the vast majority of those gigs were 50 - 200 people in a bar or small hall. It's great fun loading in nothing but stage gear and just letting a pro sound man take care of everything. Opening slots for touring acts, big corporate events.. etc.
> 
> As far as local weekend bar-gig type 'sound men' go, I mean the guys willing to work for typical low bar pay.. I've found that many are anything but pro. They might do more harm than good . If you do find a really good one, he's often booked elsewhere when you need him and eventually he moves up the food chain to start working touring shows and whatnot. So it's tricky to manage, besides all that extra expense at each gig.
> 
> Another point to consider. We'd all like to think that the soundman is always obtaining the 'best' possible sound for us out front. But we all have different ears. When you mix music, you first fix any way-bad levels or EQ... fix stuff that is obviously 'wrong'. You quickly get everything sounding 'pretty good'. Then you fine tune each mix element until you think your mix is 'perfect'. The problem is, when you get into that fine-tuning stage, you reach a point where further changes are a matter of opinion.
> 
> IMO!


 The key difference for me is that I consider the sound man to be a member of the band, as important as any other element. It's not whoever I can find to sit behind the board. He or she attends rehearsals.

This stems from my idea (well not really mine, but one I happen to share) that the best way to achieve good FOH sound is to look at the big picture from the audience's perspective, not from an efficiency or ROI point of view.


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## Church-Audio

greco said:


> Not wishing to derail the thread, but what would a sound man (person) typically charge to attend a gig at a bar and do sound/mixing for 4 band members (vocals and guitar, drums, bass guitar, guitar) from 9:00 PM until 1:00 a.m.?
> 
> Do the sound people typically supply any of the gear needed to do the mixing? (i.e., boards, snakes, etc).
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


we don't charge by the member  if we did we would be very weathy. When I was doing it full time it was $250 to $300 a night $1500 a week plus perdium of $40 per day, When on tour. Most bar sound guys should not be getting more than $50 to $75 a night. And again you get what you pay for. I've done small closet size gigs up to 65,000 people outside. Always go and see the guy your going to hire mix a live show before you hire him..... Or her. I've been out of it for about 2-3 years now. But I still mix the odd band here and there when I get offered something. Always remember no sense hiring a sound guy for a speaker on a stick gig  make sure there is a real sound system make sure he is better than the house guy or don't waste your money! And always hire the same guy or girl so that they learn your sound and get it every time you play no matter what. If you can't commit to hiring a guy many times a month chances are they won't stick around and will find someone that will. So that's what you have to consider. Cover bands should not bother bands that think they may go somewhere and want someone who can make a difference should. Sounding good live now more than ever translates into downloads and the purchase of future concert tickets.

As far as sound gear goes I learned early on there is no money to be made owning it. So I always farmed it out to someone else that way if there was an issue it would not be my problem. Case in point doing sound for a band on canada day at ontario placce many years ago board had a major issue park was full of people no vehicular traffic was allowed in the park after that time. Sound company had to send a tech out with a new console 56 channel wheel it across the park from the parking lot probably a mile or more away...to fix the issue  glad it was not my gear.


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## robare99

Ended up getting the new roof, what a relief. Just picked up a Presonus RM32AI. That will make life a bit easier now that I don't need to use my snake. We mix from the stage with my band. We both use volume pedals to bring ourselves up for the leads and to back down during the rest of the song.


----------



## High/Deaf

I don't know if the OP got his answer or not. 

While I agree that a dedicated FOH tech is great, it isn't always practical. Sometimes, mixing from the stage is just a reality. And it isn't impossible. I've done it lots. I'm lucky in that both myself and the bassplayer have run large touring rigs so we can help each other - I'm not always on the hook to set up and troubleshoot and mix and listen and ...........

The last gig I played, I had the luxury of a friend being able to provide PA and set up and run it for us. As he is not a part of the band, he got paid more than any of us did. And he got to blow some harp on certain songs (which he'd probably take over money any day of the week). More than anything, once we're set up and mixed, not much needs to be done. But I value his opinion as he walks around, the 'bags of water' come and go and things change here and there. As we don't mic anything but the kick and vocals, if he tells any of us to turn down (or, heaven forbid, turn up), we listen and comply. There is not point in having him there if we ignore him to our own peril. But if I can't get him or a buddy to listen through the night, myself and the bassplayer will stroll around on occasion. Not ideal, but better than nothing.

Last halloween I played a three band gig with a big rig and an FOH tech. It was one of those nights (sometimes it sucks to know how things work and not be able to do anything about it). He was mad that I was sidewashing - said I was bleeding into the vocals. I couldn't be bothered to get into a 'cardiod' discussion with him, I was there to play and he was supposed to know what he was doing and be there to help us. Then he got onto my guitar sound and how there was way too much 8k in it. Yea, tons of 8k out of a guitar cab. By that point, I had no confidence in what was coming out the front. At the end of the night, the crowd said it was all good, but at the time, Yikes! That kind of thing can throw a performance off and is intolerable, IMO. I've worked with so many good soundmen that they don't stand out, but the few bad ones seem to live on forever - if for no other reason that stories and examples of how not to do things.


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## Milkman

I just don't get the difference between finding a good bassist or drummer and finding a good soundman.

I honestly see the soundman as a vital member of the band, no less important than the players.

I play only a few times a year now and I want every show to be as good as it can be.

I'm convinced that a good FOH soundman is necessary to achieve that, as is mic'ing everything.

If it's about making a business case....You may have to comprimise and mix from the stage, but that is exactly what it is, a comprimise.

That's life. Sometimes you have to make comprimises.


----------



## allthumbs56

Your average bar band can't justify a soundman - that's just the way it is. I think the idea here is to give "sound" advice to those of us who need to work under those conditions.

We've gotten pretty good with our instincts over the years and mostly just have to deal with room acoustics. We don't often mic our amps and the drummer only mics his kick. My number one rule is to start "flat" - things usually sound the best there. Deviate a bit if the mic or instrument require it or if you need to address feedback. Start randomly goofing with all the knobs and you will get yourself in trouble!

It helps to have a fellow musician in the audience to give you some feedback too.


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## Milkman

As long as you view a band as a business, no, most bands playing clubs can no longer afford a soundman.

That should not be confused with whether you'll have better results with or without one.

Yes, I acknowledge that the world has changed and there is no longer a business case for most bands to have production.

That's why I have no more interest is playing those gigs.

It may seem like I'm being a bit high handed but I didn't change. The gigs did and I'm not interested in going back to the level of production I was at in high school to make less money than the girl serving drinks, when you factor in the time and money spent to play the gig.


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## robare99

We mix from the stage. Again the key is working together as a band. Coming up for your leads, backing off for other people leads. Getting right up on the mic when you sing lead, backing off when you are singing backups. We roll with a decent amount of production. Most places we play we have to provide it for ourselves. I think we do pretty good mixing from the stage:










[video=youtube_share;ytGoHuFN4KA]http://youtu.be/ytGoHuFN4KA[/video]

I agree that there's no money in bars. We play private parties, corporate, weddings etc. We do pretty good. We have a dozen gigs on the books for the year, and I'll make $5400. That's more that playing once a week and making $100/man so it's pretty good, makes it worthwhile.


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## Milkman

robare99 said:


> We mix from the stage. Again the key is working together as a band. Coming up for your leads, backing off for other people leads. Getting right up on the mic when you sing lead, backing off when you are singing backups. We roll with a decent amount of production. Most places we play we have to provide it for ourselves. I think we do pretty good mixing from the stage:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [video=youtube_share;ytGoHuFN4KA]http://youtu.be/ytGoHuFN4KA[/video]
> 
> I agree that there's no money in bars. We play private parties, corporate, weddings etc. We do pretty good. We have a dozen gigs on the books for the year, and I'll make $5400. That's more that playing once a week and making $100/man so it's pretty good, makes it worthwhile.


Wouldn't an investment of $100~$200 a night for a soundman be worth the money?

I have no doubt that you sound good with the gear you have mixing from stage. I've watched the clips.

Don't you think you would sound better and have a more dynamic mix with someone behind the board?

Don't take this the wrong way but having great gear without a soundman is like driving a bus from the back seat.

As always, just my opinion.


----------



## robare99

Milkman said:


> Wouldn't an investment of $100~$200 a night for a soundman be worth the money?
> 
> I have no doubt that you sound good with the gear you have mixing from stage. I've watched the clips.
> 
> Don't you think you would sound better and have a more dynamic mix with someone behind the board?
> 
> Don't take this the wrong way but having great gear without a soundman is like driving a bus from the back seat.
> 
> As always, just my opinion.



True enough. I wish there was a feature that let me lock out most of the features on the board/iPad. We tried one guy but we kept getting low and high feedback. Playing around too much with the compressor which gave low feedback. 

Same with another guy. As soon as we stopped playing, low feedback would start, again from the compressor on the kick. 

There is a kid I know who is in school right now for recording/sound. He's a good kid and I think I'll see if he wants to help out during the summer. Who knows maybe something will come from that, if he comes back for the summer.

But then it's another mouth to feed, and another schedule to work around.


----------



## Milkman

robare99 said:


> True enough. I wish there was a feature that let me lock out most of the features on the board/iPad. We tried one guy but we kept getting low and high feedback. Playing around too much with the compressor which gave low feedback.
> 
> Same with another guy. As soon as we stopped playing, low feedback would start, again from the compressor on the kick.
> 
> There is a kid I know who is in school right now for recording/sound. He's a good kid and I think I'll see if he wants to help out during the summer. Who knows maybe something will come from that, if he comes back for the summer.
> 
> But then it's another mouth to feed, and another schedule to work around.


I think that's a great approach.

Get a young guy with current training and then work with him until he understands your sound and needs.

Having a sound man is not enough. Obviously you need a GOOD sound man.


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## robare99

Milkman said:


> I think that's a great approach.
> 
> Get a young guy with current training and then work with him until he understands your sound and needs.
> 
> Having a sound man is not enough. Obviously you need a GOOD sound man.


No doubt hey. I'll see how it goes. We have been together oh 5 years or so and what we do always works out great. Everyone is happy with their monitor mix, we sound good out front. I'm almost of the thinking that if it isn't broke, why fix it.


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## Milkman

robare99 said:


> No doubt hey. I'll see how it goes. We have been together oh 5 years or so and what we do always works out great. Everyone is happy with their monitor mix, we sound good out front. I'm almost of the thinking that if it isn't broke, why fix it.


Maybe that's why I keep doing shows the way I do as well. I've been doing gigs with support out front on sound and lights for so long now I just prefer it that way.
I'm now in the process of going digital now.


That means no snake. A guy out front with an iPad.


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## robare99

Milkman said:


> Maybe that's why I keep doing shows the way I do as well. I've been doing gigs with support out front on sound and lights for so long now I just prefer it that way.
> I'm now in the process of going digital now.
> 
> 
> That means no snake. A guy out front with an iPad.


Nice! I also do sound on the side for other bands/events Etc. I've been using an original StudioLive 24.4.2 along with a MacBook Pro and a router to mix remotely. I picked up a Presonus RM32AI to make things even smoother. This one venue, I would still run my snake back to a mix position. I would still mix remotely but had everything back to keep an eye on things. 

The RM32AI give me:
32XLR in
16 aux's

its all mixed remotely. No computer needed unless you want to multitrack record. I generally don't with bands I provide for. So this saves me probably 30 - 45 minutes at each end not having to deal with the snake.


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## Milkman

robare99 said:


> Nice! I also do sound on the side for other bands/events Etc. I've been using an original StudioLive 24.4.2 along with a MacBook Pro and a router to mix remotely. I picked up a Presonus RM32AI to make things even smoother. This one venue, I would still run my snake back to a mix position. I would still mix remotely but had everything back to keep an eye on things.
> 
> The RM32AI give me:
> 32XLR in
> 16 aux's
> 
> its all mixed remotely. No computer needed unless you want to multitrack record. I generally don't with bands I provide for. So this saves me probably 30 - 45 minutes at each end not having to deal with the snake.


I'm looking at the Mackie DL32R.

It looks like a great system for me. I love the Mackie stuff I've used to date.


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## robare99

Milkman said:


> I'm looking at the Mackie DL32R.
> 
> It looks like a great system for me. I love the Mackie stuff I've used to date.


Nice. Yeah it's really nice not having to string up that snake! One nice thing about digital is this. We are an event band so we usually play at the same venues in town. I have a scene tailored for each venue, so the next time we play there I just load it up and 80% of the sound check is already done. I just set the gains and we are pretty much off and running. 

We we played a legion in a different town. It was souncheck time so I loaded up a similar hall. Our bass players wife was there. She was surprised at how quickly we were dialed in and it sounded great. We often use Some Kind of Wonderful as our sound check song. I'll set the mix out front via iPad. By the time the solo came around I was on stage to play it.


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## Milkman

robare99 said:


> Nice. Yeah it's really nice not having to string up that snake! One nice thing about digital is this. We are an event band so we usually play at the same venues in town. I have a scene tailored for each venue, so the next time we play there I just load it up and 80% of the sound check is already done. I just set the gains and we are pretty much off and running.
> 
> We we played a legion in a different town. It was souncheck time so I loaded up a similar hall. Our bass players wife was there. She was surprised at how quickly we were dialed in and it sounded great. We often use Some Kind of Wonderful as our sound check song. I'll set the mix out front via iPad. By the time the solo came around I was on stage to play it.



No Snake is a big plus. My snake is 32 X 8 and 100' long. It takes two men to lift it and it's clumsy heavy work.


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## robare99

Milkman said:


> No Snake is a big plus. My snake is 32 X 8 and 100' long. It takes two men to lift it and it's clumsy heavy work.
> View attachment 12459


Mines a 24x8 100' so I feel your pain. I can carry it by myself but it's not fun lol


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## High/Deaf

Milkman said:


> I just don't get the difference between finding a good bassist or drummer and finding a good soundman.
> 
> I honestly see the soundman as a vital member of the band, no less important than the players.
> 
> I play only a few times a year now and I want every show to be as good as it can be.
> 
> I'm convinced that a good FOH soundman is necessary to achieve that, as is mic'ing everything.
> 
> If it's about making a business case....You may have to comprimise and mix from the stage, but that is exactly what it is, a comprimise.
> 
> That's life. Sometimes you have to make comprimises.


Sure, it's all compromises. No horn section is a compromise. No back line harmony singers is a compromise. No dedicated sound man is a compromise. I suspect the biggest improvement we could make - that the audience would appreciate - would be the back line singers and/or the horn section.

If I could get someone to always do it and get good at it and used to us, sure. But we don't play out enough or make enough money to justify it. And getting 'the dude who is there' to mix is as much hit and miss as anything. We are just as good mixing off the stage as he is out front, and often better. We practice quite a bit and if we have a good stage balance, all we have to do is mix the vocals on top of that (that's where the value of a trusted buddy in audience comes in). It's not rocket science, but I know the equipment is daunting to some. Keep It Simple, Silly.

If the cost of a dedicated sound man means the people who hire us can no longer afford us, that's not good. It sucks, but that's the reality I see all the time. It ain't the 80s anymore.


allthumbs56 summed it up for me.


> We've gotten pretty good with our instincts over the years and mostly just have to deal with room acoustics. We don't often mic our amps and the drummer only mics his kick. My number one rule is to start "flat" - things usually sound the best there. Deviate a bit if the mic or instrument require it or if you need to address feedback. Start randomly goofing with all the knobs and you will get yourself in trouble!
> 
> It helps to have a fellow musician in the audience to give you some feedback too.


----------



## robare99

It's always tough raising your price. A few years ago we went from. $1000/$1800 for NYE to $1600/$2600NYE. Wouldn't mind bumping it up another $200 to cover travel for our singer and keyboard player. But then again it's our bass player, drummer and myself that do all the setup for local gigs. Our singer always turns down extra for gas since he comes the day of and usually has to leave early the next morning. We don't mind as we feel the travelling he does is more than his share of the work. 

We we did lose a couple gigs when we raised our price but that's it. No one else has ever balked at it. We will see how it goes. If we add a sound guy we will bump our price up $100 or so.


----------



## Milkman

High/Deaf said:


> Sure, it's all compromises. No horn section is a compromise. No back line harmony singers is a compromise. No dedicated sound man is a compromise. I suspect the biggest improvement we could make - that the audience would appreciate - would be the back line singers and/or the horn section.
> 
> If I could get someone to always do it and get good at it and used to us, sure. But we don't play out enough or make enough money to justify it. And getting 'the dude who is there' to mix is as much hit and miss as anything. We are just as good mixing off the stage as he is out front, and often better. We practice quite a bit and if we have a good stage balance, all we have to do is mix the vocals on top of that (that's where the value of a trusted buddy in audience comes in). It's not rocket science, but I know the equipment is daunting to some. Keep It Simple, Silly.
> 
> If the cost of a dedicated sound man means the people who hire us can no longer afford us, that's not good. It sucks, but that's the reality I see all the time. It ain't the 80s anymore.
> 
> 
> allthumbs56 summed it up for me.
> 
> 
> [/COLOR]



Different approaches work for different bands. It depends on what your scope is and what you're trying to accomplish.

I'm to the point where return on investment or profit is no longer a consideration. No, I'm not independently wealthy.

I've just decided that I want the best show I can afford. I own the PA so that helps.

I'd no sooner play a show without a soundman than I would without any other member of the band.


It seems like there's a lot of resistence to using a sound man based on people either having bad experiences with crappy soundmen or maybe reciting anectodal tales of the same.


A bad sound man can do a lot of damage. So can a lousy drummer, singer bassist et cetera.


----------



## High/Deaf

+1

At the level we're at, we like to keep it simple. If we took it more seriously, upped our playing and practiced a lot more, and then started making more money, I wouldn't do that without a sound man. Once you reach a certain level, it's essential.

But we're in it for the fun as much as anything. We all work good jobs and only do this for shits and giggles (and to relive old days, I suppose). We play cheap for friends events and pick up the odd real gig every now and then. Always take our harpist/soundman if it's one of those. If not we always have a buddy I can trust in the crowd to keep and ear on things.


----------



## whywhyzed

we're a 4 piece rock band. We're new, and I'm green as grass at sound so I've been reading and youtubing like mad for the few shows we've done. For a bar up to 150 people, we have two 1000W powered Ef500p's (15"/horns) for FOH (have never had them above 1/2 volume yet). (bought used for $1000), A cheap Alto 16ch mixer (a 12 ch would be fine) $350 new which has been great, Two 500 W active powered monitors (12&tweeter) that we rent $30 a show. 
We run an acoustic guitar and 4 mics into the PA plus we mic the kick drum. We do not mic amps or anything else. 
I use a 13W tube amp as does our singer for his electric. Bass rig is 400W or so. 
For DJ ing between sets, I only feed to the FOH speakers. 

$2000 spent wisely on the used market is more than enough imo to be loud and clear. Wireless not necessary if you have a long guitar cable to sound check. (I have a 75 footer) Sound guy not necessary. Maybe if you live in a city of a million+ population, you can find sound guys. They don't exist where I am. (And don't call me - lug all this stuff out for $100 and not get to play? - not happening. )
Teach a g/f, spouse or friend a few hand signals. 
Teach your singer how to move the mic away from their mouth when they're going to start yelling. Then move it closer when they sing that personal love ballad. I suspect 80% of what any sound guy does is control the singer's volume because they don't know or care how to use their microphone.

If you want to sound great, learn the strip on the mixer, learn how to properly set gains and monitor mix/level- lots of youtube vids to help you. 

If something making noise and you notice it between songs, just quickly mute and unmute each channel. (our singer loves to leave his acoustic guitar in its stand with the volume wound up- feeding back) 
Easy to find issues the mute/unmute way. And don't overreact. Subtle changes on the EQ. I generally estimate how far I think I need to move any pot or fader and then do half of that.


----------



## hollowbody

Milkman said:


> I'm looking at the Mackie DL32R.
> 
> It looks like a great system for me. I love the Mackie stuff I've used to date.


I just picked up the Mackie DL1608. Different animal than the 32, but I'm really impressed with it so far.

Portability was a big plus for me too. My car is too small to haul my guitar gear AND all the PA gear!


----------



## bw66

whywhyzed said:


> ... Maybe if you live in a city of a million+ population, you can find sound guys. They don't exist where I am. (And don't call me - lug all this stuff out for $100 and not get to play? - not happening. )


I know of a good sound guy - not too far away, in Uxbridge...

He's happy to lug gear and not play, but a hundred bucks won't get him off the couch...

And he'll probably ask you to turn down your guitar.

;-)


----------



## Milkman

hollowbody said:


> I just picked up the Mackie DL1608. Different animal than the 32, but I'm really impressed with it so far.
> 
> Portability was a big plus for me too. My car is too small to haul my guitar gear AND all the PA gear!


Awesome. Getting rid of the snake, rack and no longer needing a 6' table in the middle of the room are strong motivators for me.

- - - Updated - - -



bw66 said:


> I know of a good sound guy - not too far away, in Uxbridge...
> 
> He's happy to lug gear and not play, but a hundred bucks won't get him off the couch...
> 
> And he'll probably ask you to turn down your guitar.
> 
> ;-)



For $100 I'll show up with a brief case and run a system. No, I won't slug subs and power amps for that or provide a PA for free.

And yes, if you're cranking a half stack or Fender Twin and it's pointing at the audience I will likely ask you to turn it down.

Your amp is a monitor. It's the PA's task to get the sound to the seats.

But, if the band is good, I'll make you sound better.


----------



## bw66

Milkman said:


> For $100 I'll show up with a brief case and run a system.


I would consider it, but I'm very hesitant to run a system that I haven't set up, unless it's a properly installed house system or set up by someone I know and trust.


----------



## robare99

bw66 said:


> I would consider it, but I'm very hesitant to run a system that I haven't set up, unless it's a properly installed house system or set up by someone I know and trust.


probably have to give the wiring a quick once over. Make sure everything is working so you don't get accused of breaking something.


----------



## Milkman

I don't even mind connecting everything. It's loading and unloading I can live without. I feel like I've lifted enough subs and amp racks and its time to let younger guys take that over.

At this point, if Im not good enough to be paid for what I know and can do other than what gear I own and can physically lift, it's time to pack it in.


----------



## High/Deaf

Gigged last night with a FOH tech. It was a car show with different bands every hour. We played the second last set last night. I suspect the tech was at his limits after 12 hours of dealing with band after band after band.

Anyhow, he was a big fan of plexi in front of everything. Wouldn't even give us a chance to be too loud - but as I said, this is probably because he'd already had a day and a half of it, probably just nipping the problem in the bud. 

But I listened to the band before us and the band after us, and I thought the guitars were muffled and buried compared to what I would like. Vox and drums were way out there. So I assume I/we were probably like that as well. GF said I sound good, but she always does! I'm still glad I didn't have to deal with all the PA myself, it made for a much more enjoyable evening for me. But I think my guitar tone suffered. Truth be told, there are probably only a half dozen of us out there that noticed this - me and the other guitar players before and after me.


----------



## whywhyzed

Milkman said:


> At this point, if Im not good enough to be paid for what I know and can do other than what gear I own and can physically lift, it's time to pack it in.


exactly what me and my band mates decided - to pack it in (as far as bars go). 
$350 to be split 4 ways seems to be all anyone pays- which we don't really care about - I mean we aren't trying to make money, but it's weird the instant renumeration is involved so we're not playing any more bars. We tried it and it wasn't fun. You're treated like "the help". And it's a weird dynamic when the bar has to pay you - they immediately seem to resent your presence. 
They say we're one of the most entertaining things they've had, then they say they can't pay us as much next time. And then I got a dirty look from a waitress I didn't tip (well you're making 10X what I am hon)
We have way more fun playing for free at a pigroast or picnic where we know we won't be treated like crap. Just feed us. 
We're just going to keep jamming once a month and keep our eyes peeled for fun gigs. If they don't come along, then we're fine with that. 
We have one more bar gig in June that we decided not to cancel, but the others we cancelled.


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## High/Deaf

And more and more it bugs me how little they are willing to pay 4, 5 maybe 6 people to have practiced for years, and then lug in very specialized equipment just to entertain people. But they'll throw huge bucks at a guy who has a billion songs on a hard drive and a nice flashy light show. The mind boggles.

I saw a funny joke on another site (can't find it now though). It was taken from a scene out of Breaking Bad, with the husband and wife standing around a huge pallet of cash in their garage. The text over top was something about "a pretty good Friday night but we gotta throw the band a couple hundred bucks". Although it cuts very close, it still made me chuckle.


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## robare99

Milkman said:


> I'm looking at the Mackie DL32R.
> 
> It looks like a great system for me. I love the Mackie stuff I've used to date.


I don't know if you've seen this, Presonus is releasing a controller for the 32AI, complete with moving faders, and cat5 to connect instead of a snake. $2,000USD. I'll be getting one as soon as its available. 










[video=youtube_share;u4VDNkLLs9Y]http://youtu.be/u4VDNkLLs9Y[/video]


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## Milkman

robare99 said:


> I don't know if you've seen this, Presonus is releasing a controller for the 32AI, complete with moving faders, and cat5 to connect instead of a snake. $2,000USD. I'll be getting one as soon as its available.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [video=youtube_share;u4VDNkLLs9Y]http://youtu.be/u4VDNkLLs9Y[/video]



It's better than running a conventional snake, but falls short of eliminating the control table. It looks like a good step for those with concerns about the wireless aspect of the Mackie.

I'm still leaning toward the Mackie system so far.


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## robare99

Milkman said:


> It's better than running a conventional snake, but falls short of eliminating the control table. It looks like a good step for those with concerns about the wireless aspect of the Mackie.
> 
> I'm still leaning toward the Mackie system so far.


ive been mixing via iPad for the last 4 years. Love it. I was hanging onto my StudioLive 24.4.2 for the odd guest BE who wanted to mix with faders instead of an iPad. This solves that problem, along with a cat5 snake. Also, when my band gigs the iPad is a little clunky onstage to do things quickly like add some vocals to a monitor. So with a smaller footprint, I'll use this on stage as well. It's pretty slick 


and hey, new toy. Did you get the mackie yet?


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## Milkman

robare99 said:


> ive been mixing via iPad for the last 4 years. Love it. I was hanging onto my StudioLive 24.4.2 for the odd guest BE who wanted to mix with faders instead of an iPad. This solves that problem, along with a cat5 snake. Also, when my band gigs the iPad is a little clunky onstage to do things quickly like add some vocals to a monitor. So with a smaller footprint, I'll use this on stage as well. It's pretty slick
> 
> 
> and hey, new toy. Did you get the mackie yet?


Not yet, I have to get busy and sell my existing board, snake and rack. I've been lazy.

Hopefully within a few weeks.


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## robare99

Milkman said:


> Not yet, I have to get busy and sell my existing board, snake and rack. I've been lazy.
> 
> Hopefully within a few weeks.


yeah I'll be selling me SL24.4.2 with case, And my 100' 24x8 snake soon enough.


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## robare99

Well I have my SL24.4.2 boxed up ready to ship. Just waiting on payment. I've made a $1000 downpayment on the CS18AI which should be released in about a week or so. Pretty stoked to get it. I'll be pulling my 24x8x100' snake from the venue it's in this Thursday and then it will be up for sale as well.


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