# Defining "lowballer"



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

We've probably all seen at least several Kijiji ads stipulating that "lowballers will be ignored". But it's not really clear what folks consider to *be* a lowballer. Given that some gear holds value, some depreciates, and some accrues value, it would be a foolhardy mission to state a categorical universal definition or criteria for "lowball". 

Still, I'm curious about how folks arrive at their personal sense of a lowball offer. There are more obvious cases I think we'd all agree on ("I'll give you $10 for that '54 Strat"). But in between the posted selling price of the item and the ridiculous, there is a grey range where making a few bucks less starts to turn into an offer the seller considers insulting or exploitative.

So, do you identify "lowball", relative to the price you're asking, relative to what you paid for the item, relative to what your scan suggests such items go for, some combination of the above, or some other criteria?


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Personally, when I do finally go to sell something, it is because I want to move it so my asking price is fair and usually minimal negotiating room, 5-10% of the ask depending on the value. I do state up front so I pretty much consider anything less than about 90% of the asking price not worth entertaining.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

Like you say it's a grey area that's pretty subjective but my personal sliding scale runs about anything lower than 80% of what I'm asking. This changes based on what the generally accepted value of the item is (another grey area, I know) and how much the seller makes the transaction easy. I've said things along the lines of "my acceptance of an offer is more flexible if contact info and a firm commitment is made" In other words I don't want a pen pal who's on a fishing expedition for a give away deal asking a series of stupid questions (I try to be thorough in the ad description) but I may consider a somewhat deeper lowering of the asking price if the potential buyer makes the transaction quick and easy. A "I'll give you x$ today" offer will be more considered if it includes contact information. But that's just me.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Asking price $300

"$100 TODAY CASH!":


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Or the classic, 'WHAT IS YOUR LOWEST PRICE???".

Like I'm just going to give that up.

"Make me an offer."


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Thanks for these initial replies. Keep 'em coming. Although it wasn't my intent, I also think the responses here may help folks arrive at more amicable deals with Kijiji vendors, by being able to avoid the appearance of being a "lowballer". Always good to know when one is inadvertently stepping on toes.

Er, _before_ you step on them, not _after_.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I personally don't get people's annoyance with low ballers. If its a ridiculously low offer I can ignore it. No big deal. If I don't like a particular offer I can simply say no. I'm of the opinion that most low ballers aren't really interested so usually just ignoring them, they'll go away. It can get a little annoying letting your self get sucked in to an interaction with a potential buyer that tries to justify their offer. But then I usually end it with, "If it doesn't sell at my expected price I'll just keep it".
For me I don't usually low ball but I might try a bit of a lowball on something I'm interested in to see if I kind find the floor on what the seller wants. If it offends them then maybe I don't want to deal with them anyway. If its something I really want and I feel its fairly priced I may try for a slight discount and in the end would just pay asking price.
If I see something that I feel is way over inflated I don't even bother with it.
I've seen many ads on kijiji where sellers think they can get an over inflated value. An example is someone selling a 52 reissue tele as "Just like new", then they've got a price as that of a new one minus the tax. To me a used guitar should be less than retail minus tax. But I'm not going to bother arguing with them about it.


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

I try and post prices that are in line with market prices. So if MIM Strats are selling used for 450.00, thats where i start. I wont post a 700.00 price and dicker with the buyer. Will accept about 10% off the asking price depending on how much of a rush i am in. I wont go to Kijiji anymore because of all the comments and e-mails so if i cant sell it here, i will trade it in.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

They don't really bug me either...I just ignore them.

I had one clown make a lowball offer under one email, then send me a reasonable offer under his buddy's email when I ignored the first one. When he showed up to make the buy, I realized it was the original low ball guy


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2017)

Guncho said:


> Or the classic, 'WHAT IS YOUR LOWEST PRICE???".


'What you see advertised'.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

When I advertise my price, it is pretty much what I want. I research what I am selling and make sure my price is competitive. Anything over 5% lower simply gets ignored for I know I will get my price.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

It all depends. Sometimes the sellers Price is reasonable, sometimes it's ridiculous. Why do we automatically assume it's the buyer that lowballs ? 
If people ask stupid prices they should be prepared to get stupid offers. 
I don't have to lowball, but occasionally I'll see something I like, I'll throw an offer of what I feel I pay for it and if it sticks I get a deal. If not no harm no foul.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Scotty said:


> It all depends. Sometimes the sellers Price is reasonable, sometimes it's ridiculous. Why do we automatically assume it's the buyer that lowballs ?
> If people ask stupid prices they should be prepared to get stupid offers.
> I don't have to lowball, but occasionally I'll see something I like, I'll throw an offer of what I feel I pay for it and if it sticks I get a deal. If not no harm no foul.


This... sometimes the asking price is simply ridiculous and out of touch with reality.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2017)

I always ask a seller if they're flexible in their asking price before making an offer.
This tends to make it easier to deal with them.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> When I advertise my price, it is pretty much what I want. I research what I am selling and make sure my price is competitive. Anything over 5% lower simply gets ignored for I know I will get my price.


If I'm open to offers I list my price or best offer. But if my price is firm I say so. If somebody lowballs me on a firm price I simply repeat the price is firm.
But like you, I usually list something priced to sell. I don't want to deal with a list of Kijijiots.

I also don't haggle the shit out of people. If the price is reasonable, I pay and go. I'm not going to nickel and dime someone. Hagglers annoy the hell out of me so I don't do it anybody else


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## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

guitarman2 said:


> If its a ridiculously low offer I can ignore it.


See ... I never thought of not answering a low offer, even if it's just a plain NO. So when I do make a low offer (not a stupid low), I'm pissed if the seller don't answer back. 

It's like sellers who you ask a few questions about the product and they only answer one. I am presently dealing with a hot tub cover maker, that only answer my e-mails after the second one asking if he received it. Yeah I know, you'll say, shop somewhere else, but nobody else makes custom shapes like what I need. So I bear with him.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

I also find myself outlining all the acceptable parameters of a deal in the ad lately. 
Price - If it say's firm it's firm
If I don't say it's firm I usually (but not always) say "best reasonable offer" (again appealing to the potential buyer not to be a dick)
Availability - If the ad's up it's still available. (I don't really mind people asking as long as they show intent to buy as in "if it's still available call me at....." Unfortunately it's usually just a one liner "you still have it?" with no commitment to engage. 
It may come across as very terse but it filters out a lot of nonsense. 

All that said, Kijiji, as we all know can be a weird place for both buyers and sellers. I understand and agree with a certain amount of caution when communicating with people you don't know with the intent on either going to their place, them coming to yours or meeting in a neutral location. A bit of back and forth is a good thing to establish as best one can the other's intentions or to get a vibe as to whether to deal with them or not in person. One has to be careful. 

My wish and intent is to facilitate a purchase or sale as quickly and efficiently as possible to the mutual satisfaction of both buyer and seller.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

BGood said:


> See ... I never thought of not answering a low offer, even if it's just a plain NO. So when I do make a low offer (not a stupid low), I'm pissed if the seller don't answer back.


If I've got an amp or guitar I'm asking $2,000 (assuming I've researched and priced fairly) and someone offers $1,000, yeah I'm going to ignore it. I won't get pissed off at the offer and I don't care if the lowballer gets pissed at the no response.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

My standard Kijiji line is "Lowballers will be laughed at vigorously and then ignored" I generally consider a lowballer as someone who makes an offer that is lower enough that I think "**** You" and laugh.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

A Lowball is a offer well below the posted asking price. That is why I don't advertise anything OBO. I post at a reasonable market value and that is the price. Price is firm no if's ands or but's. Cuts out a  lot of the BS.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

Great topic - lowball is relative and subjective as prospective buyers expect discounts ranging anywhere from 20 - 60% off the street price. For me, the number has to be really low in order to qualify for a lowball. I've had a few situations whereby I was selling a $4K (new) guitar and received an offer for $1,100. It was a Collings and not an unknown brand so that constituted a low ball in my books. On the more delicate side, I had a dealer offer me $800 for a $4.5K (new) PRS as a trade in for a new guitar. They back peddled when I didn't respond and stated that it was a mistake and they could do $1,200. That is a rare instance though but that dealer is last on my list (I had never dealt with them so they tried - and so it is).

The only times I received low ball offers on Ebay was from Canadians (including the Collings offer above). Somehow the buyer pretzel logic was that the seller would save on shipping costs or some form of Hail Mary offer because it would be easier for the seller to ship.....I fully understand that the tax structure in Canada is "taxing" and Canadians have less disposable incomes than our neighbors to the south, however, there is an element of TAC which can be a bit frustrating at times. Some foreign sellers refuse to deal with Canadians on that basis.

I use to sell mostly to US residents with very little haggling and a few Canadians (the same 3-4 guys) that are or were on this forum but I've noticed in the last couple years in Canada, a bigger appetite for boutique stuff and gear in general especially on this forum. I like it!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Distortion said:


> A Lowball is a offer well below the posted asking price. That is why I don't advertise anything OBO. I post at a reasonable market value and that is the price. Price is firm no if's ands or but's. Cuts out a lot of the BS.


Not disputing the truth of that. The question I'm asking is what the tipping point is between"a bit less" and "well below the posted asking price". If it's hard for you to quantify, I'm good with that. I understand it's a tricky thing to pin down. I'm just trying to see if we can collectively bring it into sharper focus.

Following up on some of the previous posts, though, I would imagine that what counts as lowball is not only a function of how much an offer is below asking price proportionately, by how much lower it is in real dollars. So, advertising a run of the mill pedal for $60, and getting an offeer of $10 is annoying, but it won't often be the difference between allocating the money to rent or new guitar...or not. Trying to sell a Custom Shop Strat, and receiving an offer of 16 cents on the dollar, can be a lot of money forfeited. I would imagine such offers are more than simply "annoying".


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Distortion said:


> A Lowball is a offer well below the posted asking price. *That is why I don't advertise anything OBO. * I post at a reasonable market value and that is the price. Price is firm no if's ands or but's. Cuts out a lot of the BS.


Putting *OBO* on your ad is one of the worst selling mistakes people make.


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## Guest (Apr 5, 2017)

Then there's the 'accepting bids'.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> Putting *OBO* on your ad is one of the worst selling mistakes people make.


How? I was selling my power supply. I had a local offer me less than I wanted, but not a totally unreasonable amount. I told him that if I couldn't sell it for my asking price (my way of saying "If I get desperate") that I'd get in touch. I ended up selling to someone else for just above what he offered, and a reasonable offer on my original price. I didn't say "OBO" but that's how OBO works. If people lowball you (as discussed) on an OBO item, then you ignore them.

As has been said, it's a bit of a scale for "lowball" depending on original and listed cost of the item, and how anxious the seller is to move it, and the condition of the item itself. I've seen a few "I need this gone, here's a stupid good price" postings and some "save yourself the tax!" postings.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Budda said:


> How? I was selling my power supply. I had a local offer me less than I wanted, but not a totally unreasonable amount. I told him that if I couldn't sell it for my asking price (my way of saying "If I get desperate") that I'd get in touch. I ended up selling to someone else for just above what he offered, and a reasonable offer on my original price. I didn't say "OBO" but that's how OBO works. If people lowball you (as discussed) on an OBO item, then you ignore them.
> 
> As has been said, it's a bit of a scale for "lowball" depending on original and listed cost of the item, and how anxious the seller is to move it, and the condition of the item itself. I've seen a few "I need this gone, here's a stupid good price" postings and some "save yourself the tax!" postings.


How? If makes the seller look like he 1) doesn't know the price the item should be selling at 2) it makes the seller looking like he is an amateur at selling 3) it opens the door for lowballers to take advantage of the seller 4) prospective buyers may remember you as an OBO listing seller and look at any future ads as a seller they can take advantage of.

When you look like you know what you're doing, you get more respect. I have been selling most of my life and when it comes to selling on Kijiji, I always get my price and have never put OBO on my ads. I know what the right price is to sell it and put that in the ad. 

I am not posting this to try and make you look bad and neither am I calling you an amateur as I am pretty sure you are not. But my training in sales shows this is not a good idea. If someone still thinks it is a good idea and wants to continue to do this, that is entirely up to them. We all need to make our own decisions.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

I don't understand why anyone would be offended by any offer. I have been in sales most of my life. I learned long ago to treat every offer courteously and to respond with a firm but polite no to offers I won't accept. You'd be surprised how often that low ball offer turns into a sale eventually. If you are selling something it's not about you. You sometimes have to work at it. The other way around, making the buyer work, usually means less sales in the long run.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I don't use the OBO in my ads either. There's enough low ballers responding with out attracting more.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Kerry Brown said:


> I don't understand why anyone would be offended by any offer. I have been in sales most of my life. I learned long ago to treat every offer courteously and to respond with a firm but polite no to offers I won't accept. You'd be surprised how often that low ball offer turns into a sale eventually. If you are selling something it's not about you. You sometimes have to work at it. The other way around, making the buyer work, usually means less sales in the long run.


I agree with you. I don't get offended by low balls. I don't ignore them all but low balling me runs the risk of me ignoring it. If I am not getting a lot of responses on a particular item I may respond that the offer was way too low. I've had some items that take a while to sell but I was patient and they sold for what I was asking. 
To me, lowballers, for the most part are not really interested in what you have. Obviously if you sell to them for the ridiculously low price they'll buy and then most likely turn around and flip it for a profit. Low ballers are about as much a waste of time as tire kickers. I don't have the time to be offended and sometimes I don't even have the time to respond.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> Putting *OBO* on your ad is one of the worst selling mistakes people make.


There's three kinds of "OBO", or at least three potential understandings of it.

1) "This item is in demand so if you want to bid higher, I'm up for whatever competition occurs."
2) "I'm desperate to get rid of this, so if I have to take a loss, so be it."
3) "I have no idea what this is actually worth, so consider the posted price as a starting point."

Sometimes, one of them is a more appropriate interpretation than the others. Where it gets problematic is when the seller's and buyer's understanding are not the same understanding.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

Distortion said:


> A Lowball is a offer well below the posted asking price. That is why I don't advertise anything OBO. I post at a reasonable market value and that is the price. Price is firm no if's ands or but's. Cuts out a lot of the BS.


I think this system would be ideal and reduce the huge gap in bid and ask prices. I find the emporiums (especially TGP) have become dysfunctional. Sellers asking prices that are slightly less than new and buyers wanting a 50% discount. It's gridlock and nothing seems to move. I've used the firm pricing tactic and agree it reduces the bs but there seems to be demand for getting a "deal" and it is expected that a lower price will be accepted. Case in point, I sold a pedal last week - 40% discount off new asking $135 - I get a message "would you take $130" - not that it bothers me but for $5 on an already reasonable deal. really? I didn't respond back which is rare for me but I honestly didn't know what to say.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

mhammer said:


> There's three kinds of "OBO", or at least three potential understandings of it.
> 
> 1) "This item is in demand so if you want to bid higher, I'm up for whatever competition occurs."
> 2) "I'm desperate to get rid of this, so if I have to take a loss, so be it."
> ...


That is exactly why a person should leave it off the ad.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Have lowballers become those guys who wear their pants too low?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Alex said:


> I think this system would be ideal and reduce the huge gap in bid and ask prices. I find the emporiums (especially TGP) have become dysfunctional. Sellers asking prices that are slightly less than new and buyers wanting a 50% discount. It's gridlock and nothing seems to move. I've used the firm pricing tactic and agree it reduces the bs but there seems to be demand for getting a "deal" and it is expected that a lower price will be accepted. Case in point, I sold a pedal last week - 40% discount off new asking $135 - I get a message "would you take $130" - not that it bothers me but for $5 on an already reasonable deal. really? I didn't respond back which is rare for me but I honestly didn't know what to say.


One of the things I've noted in past is that the Internet has warped both buyers' and sellers' notions of appropriate market value. Sellers will always be able to find a recorded selling price that is inflated, and buyers will always be able to find a recorded selling/purchase price that is ridiculously low. Those gaps can create conflicts with respect to what each party considers fair value.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

I remember locating an old guy who was selling mountains of NOS RCA tubes from a shed in his backyard. He said, "Well, $1 for the little ones, $2 for the big ones....."

I felt bad, but paid what he was asking.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

In the end a fair price is what the market will bear. There has been a few high priced items in the past that I've priced on the high side. It took longer to sell but eventually I did get my asking price. Other things I've priced with a deeper discount and got rid of them faster. This is one reason I don't get too offended with low ballers. Most of the time their trying to feel out how desperate I am. If the lowball wasn't in the ridiculous category I simply respond with a no.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Alex said:


> ... Sellers asking prices that are slightly less than new and buyers wanting a 50% discount. ...but there seems to be demand for getting a "deal" and it is expected that a lower price will be accepted.


That's the real issue. Just about *everyone* thinks they are *entitled* to a better deal than advertised. Which is why some people will ask for juuust over a reasonable price, to facilitate that "I got a deal!" euphoria in the buyer while still getting the price they originally wanted. That is, to me, where some of the inflation comes in. I know that a few guys here do it, no harm no foul - gear sells for what people are willing to pay, at the end of the day.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

A suggestion to sellers ... consider responding with a counter offer rather than "no". A "no" gives one nothing to work with, a guaranteed lose-lose outcome.


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## dodgechargerfan (Mar 22, 2006)

Alex said:


> I think this system would be ideal and reduce the huge gap in bid and ask prices. I find the emporiums (especially TGP) have become dysfunctional. Sellers asking prices that are slightly less than new and buyers wanting a 50% discount. It's gridlock and nothing seems to move. I've used the firm pricing tactic and agree it reduces the bs but there seems to be demand for getting a "deal" and it is expected that a lower price will be accepted. Case in point, I sold a pedal last week - 40% discount off new asking $135 - I get a message "would you take $130" - not that it bothers me but for $5 on an already reasonable deal. really? I didn't respond back which is rare for me but I honestly didn't know what to say.


They likely thought that 135 was reasonable, but it's their nature to haggle.
They feel it's a necessary part of the game.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

$5 is hard to get out of a bank machine.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

LexxM3 said:


> A suggestion to sellers ... consider responding with a counter offer rather than "no". A "no" gives one nothing to work with, a guaranteed lose-lose outcome.


As I said previously if the offer is of the ridiculously low nature I have no desire to take the time to educate the buyer on what a fair offer would be. It'd likely be a waste of time. I don't mind waiting for the buyer that did their home work and realizes a fair price.


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## sorbz62 (Nov 15, 2011)

This thread typifies the crap state of affairs in Canada when it comes to selling used stuff. C'mon guys you need to post reasonable prics for USED goods. There is no such thing as 'lowballing' just offers, some of which are below the level you wish to sell for. It is a buyers market and they can offer whatever they want. Just grow a pair and make a counter offer.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> As I said previously if the offer is of the ridiculously low nature I have no desire to take the time to educate the buyer on what a fair offer would be. It'd likely be a waste of time.


Up to you, of course, but like I said, that is a guaranteed loss. And it's frankly not your duty or really your god-given right to educate. I am talking about a simple counter offer, no drama required. But sure, if the offer is at the level of offensive, don't respond, that will help the next serious buyer that gets no responses from 80% of asking price or reasonable offers to be pre-pissed at all of Kijiji (including you and me) before even the first contact. Lose-lose and we all keep on losing.

I am mostly a buyer, and idiotic sellers are aplenty. But I have also sold, and yap, no shortage of idiotic "buyers."


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

sorbz62 said:


> C'mon guys you need to post reasonable prics for USED goods. There is no such thing as 'lowballing' just offers, some of which are below the level you wish to sell for


*scratches head* no such thing as lowballing? You define lowballing loosely with the following sentence. Insulting offers are just that.

If not, I'll take your best amp for $100 and I'll even pick it up.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

LexxM3 said:


> A suggestion to sellers ... consider responding with a counter offer rather than "no". A "no" gives one nothing to work with, a guaranteed lose-lose outcome.


A counter offer also caps the up side. It depends....if I get a reasonable or workable offer, I will typically counter with a number. If it's too far from the asking price, most times I politely decline.

I try most times to not waste each party's time. I had a guitar for sale that received a bid roughly 35% below my asking. The same buyer came back a month later with questions and wanted more pics - my response was something to the effect that I was happy to do so but also to let him know that I had recently declined an offer that was 40% higher than his last offer (it was a big ticket item and the difference in dollars were significant to me). I never heard back from the buyer which is good - we would not have agreed upon a price.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

To be clear, when I suggest a counter offer, it is entirely reasonable that that counter can be a polite, non-snide restatement of the asking price, if you wish. Sure, counter caps the upside, but didn't your asking price already set a ceiling?

Reminds me ... not asking for a price but asking for offers doesn't work. I most definitely ignore all such ads as a buyer and I am not the only one -- I see many of the same "make offer" ads reposted for months and years. There is a reason we have the "must post price" rule here.


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## sorbz62 (Nov 15, 2011)

Budda said:


> *scratches head* no such thing as lowballing? You define lowballing loosely with the following sentence. Insulting offers are just that.
> 
> If not, I'll take your best amp for $100 and I'll even pick it up.


It's not 'lowballing' but a low offer ....

.. and I'll counter offer with $1000 but add that the trade value is $5000!


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

LexxM3 said:


> To be clear, when I suggest a counter offer, it is entirely reasonable that that counter can be a polite, non-snide restatement of the asking price, if you wish. Sure, counter caps the upside, but didn't your asking price already set a ceiling?
> 
> Reminds me ... not asking for a price but asking for offers doesn't work. I most definitely ignore all such ads as a buyer and I am not the only one -- I see many of the same "make offer" ads reposted for months and years. There is a reason we have the "must post price" rule here.


Fair enough but replying with the ask can also deter buyers as well. Like everything, there is no right or wrong. If your gear is sitting in the emporium for a long time, you gotta ask yourself if you're using the right platform and/or the pricing is adequate. If your stuff is moving, you are doing something right. Based on most of the members feedback count, we seem to be doing ok as a group.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

LexxM3 said:


> A suggestion to sellers ... consider responding with a counter offer rather than "no". A "no" gives one nothing to work with, a guaranteed lose-lose outcome.


As one member posted above, most of these low ballers are like tire kickers and not worth the time. If they don't get a response, they know why and if are truly interested will get back to you with a reasonable offer.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

LexxM3 said:


> A suggestion to sellers ... consider responding with a counter offer rather than "no". A "no" gives one nothing to work with, a guaranteed lose-lose outcome.


Personally I don't think someone who offers a 1/3rd of what you are asking and can't even type in complete sentences deserves a counter offer.

You offer me 20% less that what I am asking then yes I will counter.

70% less. 

F no!


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Guncho said:


> Personally I don't think someone who offers a 1/3rd of what you are asking and can't even type in complete sentences deserves a counter offer.
> 
> You offer me 20% less that what I am asking then yes I will counter.
> 
> ...


I am not defending actual, for real idiotic low ballers, but am rather talking about people that respond with a naked no to an offer of 10% lower (or an explanation if much below that) or don't respond at all. A lot do that. Means with 100% certainty they lost an easy sale.

Regarding explanations, sometimes or even often, asking prices are unreasonably high. Yes, I can move along, then we both lose. So I'll make a low offer with an explanation, often let it stand until I find the item for a price I am willing to pay. More often than not, a naked no or no response. Then I find the item for my price and they lost. 

Recent situation: local convenient location asking is $600; been up for a while, reposted every week; I've seen these below $400 same condition, so I offer $460 with an explanation and standing offer terms; no response; a week later I buy the item for $380; the $600 keeps on reposting it for $600. Who's the loser here?


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Your offer was 24% less than asking.

That's not a lowball offer in my opinion.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Guncho said:


> Your offer was 24% less than asking.
> 
> That's not a lowball offer in my opinion.


Sure, but the seller still didn't respond. Happens all the time, majority of the time. He could have countered and probably even sold it. But didn't because of pride and misplaced indignation. That's the stupidity I am trying to motivate the reduction of with my comments.


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## Lakota (Dec 20, 2013)

I never say lowballers will be ignored in ads. I have sold a ton of stuff on Kijiji, and in my experience, 95% of the time if someone emails a lower offer and I accept, they never show up. Lately, if someone offers less than asking they just get an email reply simply stating NO. When someone is in my livingroom, and makes a lower offer that is reasonable, they often get it.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Sorry, when selling, I am not letting anyone into my living room unless we have a firm agreement on price beforehand. And if they try to renegotiate the price after that, they will get kicked out. It's much cheaper to negotiate and build the basic relationship before wasting time and risk to meet.

And as a buyer, your naked no means you will never sell to me or anyone like me (ie very active buyer).

Doesn't sound like we have a constructive setup happening here.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

sorbz62 said:


> It's not 'lowballing' but a *low offer* ....


Again, you've defined lowballing in your post stating what lowballing isn't.


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## sorbz62 (Nov 15, 2011)

No, I'm saying that the concept of 'lowballing' and people getting upset over it is ludicrous..... But bartering to find a mutually agreed price is the norm elsewhere.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

LexxM3 said:


> Sorry, when selling, I am not letting anyone into my living room unless we have a firm agreement on price beforehand. And if they try to renegotiate the price after that, they will get kicked out.


So you want me (as the theoretical buyer) to agree to a price before I've seen and played the item in question and then after checking it out, I can't revise my offer based on condition or playability?


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

gtrguy said:


> So you want me (as the theoretical buyer) to agree to a price before I've seen and played the item in question and then after checking it out, I can't revise my offer based on condition or playability?


Of course the condition is described and questions answered. If the expectation set is not met at inspection, I'll be the first (as a seller) to offer compensation for my screwup. In fact, people here will attest to that having happened and I've stopped a $1000 Kijiji sell deal with profuse apologies because an amp I was selling developed a cabinet vibration I didn't describe (because I didn't know about it). You do all of this before meeting. Meeting is a rubber stamp.

You want to avoid tire kickers and the really disruptive low ballers as a seller? Do that. It works.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

LexxM3 said:


> Of course the condition is described and questions answered. If the expectation set at inspection is not met, I'll be the first (as a seller) to offer compensation for my screwup. In fact, people here will attest to that having happened and I've stopped a $1000 Kijiji sell deal with profuse apologies because an amp I was selling developed a cabinet vibration I didn't describe (because I didn't know about it). You do all of this before meeting. Meeting is a rubber stamp.
> 
> You want to avoid tire kickers and the really disruptive low ballers as a seller? Do that. It works.


There are ways to avoid the tire kickers before they even contact you. Some of the members here have described how it is done so they rarely if ever, contact you in the first place.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Steadfastly said:


> There are ways to avoid the tire kickers before they even contact you. Some of the members here have described how it is done so they rarely if ever, contact you in the first place.


What's described (no response, naked nos, snide rebuttals) also eliminate legitimate buyers. Then both parties lose. That's my point. Keep emotion down and communicate, rather than the opposite.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

LexxM3 said:


> What's described (no response, naked nos, snide rebuttals) also eliminate legitimate buyers. Then both parties lose. That's my point. Keep emotion down and communicate, rather than the opposite.


I respectfully disagree. Tire kickers just are not legitimate buyers. They never have been and never will be.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Steadfastly said:


> I respectfully disagree. Tire kickers just are not legitimate buyers. They never have been and never will be.


Not true. Just a moment ago, in fact, @gtrguy's unhappiness with my approach above looks like a tire kicker to some, but he was implying he isn't. Plenty of examples of that.

By the way, I think I slyly introduced a concept of a "tire kicker" without defining it, to a topic trying to define "low baller". Classic move . But I don't think that is reducing confusion in this particular thread about low ballers ...

Update: I just checked back and it was @Steadfastly that first introduced "tire kicker" into this conversation, I just jumped on it. So he's the sly one


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

LexxM3 said:


> Not true. Just a moment ago, in fact, @gtrguy's unhappiness with my approach above looks like a tire kicker to some, but he was implying he isn't. Plenty of examples of that.
> 
> By the way, I think I slyly introduced a concept of a "tire kicker" without defining it, to a topic trying to define "low baller". Classic move . But I don't think that is reducing confusion in this particular thread about low ballers ...


I was just questioning what I perceived as a 'set in stone' approach but obviously you elaborated and made the case that you are flexible on price if something affecting the condition or playability was pointed out- best approach to take in my opinion.

My own approach to selling is this- I do a little research to see what similar items is similar condition are selling for and generally set my price so it's a good enough deal that someone will snap it up within a few days. I don't like to mess around with endless emails and generally one of the first couple of responses I get is a 'I'll take it, when can we meet to do the deal?" no offer, no questions.

As a buyer, I'm the same way- I generally don't make an offer unless the price is just a little bit high, then I'll offer what is basically the typical sell price of the item. If the posted price is too high (as in unrealistic or too close to new price) I don't even bother making an offer. If the posted price is in the right ballpark, I'm the guy that simply emails to say "I'll take it, when can I pick it up?"


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Ditto @gtrguy, but in my neck of the woods, more conversation is typically required.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

LexxM3 said:


> A suggestion to sellers ... consider responding with a counter offer rather than "no". A "no" gives one nothing to work with, a guaranteed lose-lose outcome.


I just received an offer for a trade and I politely declined. I received a thank you note for taking the time to reply 

A bit of courtesy is not a bad thing especially in a Forum environment whereby a spirit of community is trying to be developed.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Alex said:


> I just received an offer for a trade and I politely declined. I received a thank you note for taking the time to reply


I assume your polite decline was not a brash, naked, single word "no", correct? If correct, the outcome is clear. That buyer WILL contact you again, you've made a friend not an enemy. And it took no drama.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

I just went into Tim Horton's and the lady put the coffee on the counter and said that will be $1.70 and I said I will give you $1.10.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

When I see an add that I think is out to lunch price wise, I just roll my eyes and go onto the next add. I don't even want to waste my time trying to deal with the guy.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

Lincoln said:


> When I see an add that I think is out to lunch price wise, I just roll my eyes and go onto the next add. I don't even want to waste my time trying to deal with the guy.


This is why people get lowball offers. On the local CL there are two "Evil" twins. The pictures look like they are pictures of the actual amps. They both look in good shape. One is $650 and one is $1,500. There was another one for $500 but I'm assuming it sold because it is no longer listed. Crazy high prices will always get a lot of lowball offers. I wish I would have picked up the $500 one. I was cash poor and now that I have cash it's gone. Maybe I should offer the $650 guy $500


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Distortion said:


> I just went into Tim Horton's and the lady put the coffee on the counter and said that will be $1.70 and I said I will give you $1.10.


It's a question of culture, but there are places in the world that yes, you could do that and it would be normal. But not in the West.

But, are you trying to compare us selling our shit on Kijiji to an operating business? You got warranty backed by insurance and requirement to maintain credibility? You got unionized employees or even if not unionized, a competitive employee marketplace with benefits and expectation of salary for your Kijiji selling? Come on, please make a better analogy if you can ...


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2017)

LexxM3 said:


> Come on, please make a better analogy if you can ...


yard sales? flee markets?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Alex said:


> I just received an offer for a trade and I politely declined. I received a thank you note for taking the time to reply
> 
> A bit of courtesy is not a bad thing especially in a Forum environment whereby a spirit of community is trying to be developed.


Yeah and thats fine. I've had offers for trades as well that I have declined. But if I've stated explicitly in the ad "No Trades", and someone still offers a trade, well my opinion is, if you can't take the time to read or comprehend the ad then why should I take the time to reply?


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## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

Some stats. I recently helped my uncle sell his BMW 3 series. Ran great, body was mint, priced well below market value (8.5K on the used car package vs his 5.5K asking price, etested AND certified). After selling the car, I took a look at Kijiji's numbers. I received 45 replies. Of the 45 replies, probably 20 were the "$2000 CASH" replies, 10 odd "BEST PRICE" replies, and only 4 were serious about following through and actually proceeding beyond the initial contact. Of the 4 who did follow up, only two made arrangements to check it out, and the guy who ended up getting the deal was a guy from freaking Gatineau who drove to Toronto and back to buy it. My uncle's flexibility on price was pretty substantial, as he ended up taking 1K less than the asking price. If only those idiots knew how to ask properly, they would have gotten a really good deal. 

The replies that I absolutely hate are the "what's your lowest/best price" ones. Sorry bud. I'm going to reply with the price I posted. What did you think, I was going to rip myself off? Have some balls to make me an offer and have the balls to take it if I say no.


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## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

dmc69 said:


> If only those idiots knew how to ask properly, they would have gotten a really good deal.


This is the key, mostly everything is negotiable but communication is very important in conducting any sort of negotiation.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2017)

Lord-Humongous said:


> This is the key, mostly everything is negotiable but *communication* is very important in conducting any sort of negotiation.


I picked up a set of 4 BFG Radial TA's (practically new) yesterday.
The seller hung up on 3 lowballers before I called.
I told him that I wont haggle over his very reasonable asking price of $80/set.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

dmc69 said:


> Some stats. I recently helped my uncle sell his BMW 3 series. Ran great, body was mint, priced well below market value (8.5K on the used car package vs his 5.5K asking price, etested AND certified). After selling the car, I took a look at Kijiji's numbers.* I received 45 replies. Of the 45 replies, probably 20 were the "$2000 CASH" replies, 10 odd "BEST PRICE" replies, and only 4 were serious about following through and actually proceeding beyond the initial contact.* Of the 4 who did follow up, only two made arrangements to check it out, and the guy who ended up getting the deal was a guy from freaking Gatineau who drove to Toronto and back to buy it. My uncle's flexibility on price was pretty substantial, as he ended up taking 1K less than the asking price. If only those idiots knew how to ask properly, they would have gotten a really good deal.
> 
> The replies that I absolutely hate are the "what's your lowest/best price" ones. Sorry bud. I'm going to reply with the price I posted. What did you think, I was going to rip myself off? Have some balls to make me an offer and have the balls to take it if I say no.


This is why my ads always read that YOU MUST REPLY WITH A PHONE NUMBER OR YOUR REPLY WILL BE DELETED. I don't get a lot of replies to my ads but I sell my stuff quickly to serious buyers and no hassles. Tire kickers won't leave their number because they are not really interested and don't want to be asked questions they are not prepared to answer.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

i don't let lowball offers bother me...but here's what i would say

when i post items for sale...i know what they are worth, and add a few bucks to that, so that if i get that much, awesome, but most likely i'll get offered what i figured i'd get, and i'll take it...

shitty offers and trades are just what they are...and they don't bother me for this reason...when i see something i want, but its priced a little higher than i can afford...i'll start at 50% of what they are asking...from here, three things are going to happen:
1. you are either ignored or, told where to go
2. offered a counter, or
3. they take the low offer

i've gotten a Les Paul, a couple pedals, a Traynor cab, and an Orange cab thru option 3...i don't take offense when people try those options with me, b/c i do it too...you never know how badly people need the money, want it gone, or sometimes the stuff just isn't worth to them what it is to others...mind you, i've never sold an item through #3 as i can wait until i get what i want

just my 1c


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

On most sales, i am usually selling items for less then 1/2 the price new, so if i bought the item new,and its mint then i will put FIRM AND NO TRADES.
If the item i am selling i bought used, i will put an asking price with a bit of room to lower. If my price is 65.00, and somebody offers 40.00 i simply say the best i can do is 50.00 , sorry.
If i get a 25.00 offer, i dont waste my time replying..

When buying i check there price, if they are high, i offer what i think its worth, if there price is good i pay them there asking price even though i could probably get it cheaper i just feel i am getting a good price on it and they are getting what they want.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I was selling a vehicle once and a guy came to look at it. He offered me 50% of what I was asking and it was already priced way low as I just wanted it out of my drive way but I wasn't taking 50% of asking. So I said no. He sees "ah man I drove 2 hours I dont' want to drive here for nothing". Like I'm supposed to feel sorry he drove a long way to get his offer turned down. I ended up taking $100 off of the $2,000 I was asking and he took it. Guess cause he didn't to take a trip for nothing.


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## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

guitarman2 said:


> I was selling a vehicle once and a guy came to look at it. He offered me 50% of what I was asking and it was already priced way low as I just wanted it out of my drive way but I wasn't taking 50% of asking. So I said no. He sees "ah man I drove 2 hours I dont' want to drive here for nothing". Like I'm supposed to feel sorry he drove a long way to get his offer turned down. I ended up taking $100 off of the $2,000 I was asking and he took it. Guess cause he didn't to take a trip for nothing.


Here's the thing. If a buyer drove all the way down to see my item, I KNOW they have the money on them. They wouldn't make the drive and NOT have the money. Excuses like "I only can afford x amount less than asking price" after they have arrived don't fly with me because I ain't falling for that shit. They wouldn't have driven if they couldn't have afforded it, unless they're a total idiot. Then that's on them, because I am not obligated to give idiot discounts. Negotiate with me beforehand, or GTFO. Nevertheless, I will knock like $20 bucks off to make them feel a bit better, but taking a 50% discount? They can drive back emptyhanded.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

dmc69 said:


> Here's the thing. If a buyer drove all the way down to see my item, I KNOW they have the money on them. They wouldn't make the drive and NOT have the money. Excuses like "I only can afford x amount less than asking price" after they have arrived don't fly with me because I ain't falling for that shit. They wouldn't have driven if they couldn't have afforded it, unless they're a total idiot. Then that's on them, because I am not obligated to give idiot discounts. Negotiate with me beforehand, or GTFO. Nevertheless, I will knock like $20 bucks off to make them feel a bit better, but taking a 50% discount? They can drive back emptyhanded.


I have to agree with this. I have enough sales experience to know when a deal has been closed. If someone sends a few emails then drives to view an item you can be pretty sure they have the money with them. I never change my price in that case unless they point out some flaw that I had previously not seen or told them about. Generally in an ad I state my price and am pretty inflexible about discounting it. I research the market and know what it is worth. If it has not sold after a period of time I may lower the selling price in the ad but it is very rare I would ever accept an offer lower than my selling price. I've been able to sell a lot of gear on Craig's List this way. Research, price fairly, respond to every enquiry even if it's just to say no thank, and don't budge on price. When I buy gear I almost always make a reasonable offer first. Depending on the seller's attitude I may or may not raise my offer. If they are sarcastic or implying I am an idiot for my offer I move on to the next deal.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

dmc69 said:


> Here's the thing. If a buyer drove all the way down to see my item, I KNOW they have the money on them. They wouldn't make the drive and NOT have the money. Excuses like "I only can afford x amount less than asking price" after they have arrived don't fly with me because I ain't falling for that shit. They wouldn't have driven if they couldn't have afforded it, unless they're a total idiot. Then that's on them, because I am not obligated to give idiot discounts. Negotiate with me beforehand, or GTFO. Nevertheless, I will knock like $20 bucks off to make them feel a bit better, but taking a 50% discount? They can drive back emptyhanded.


Thats why if i drive quite a distance for something, i do not tell them...


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Kerry Brown said:


> I have to agree with this. I have enough sales experience to know when a deal has been closed. If someone sends a few emails then drives to view an item you can be pretty sure they have the money with them. I never change my price in that case unless they point out some flaw that I had previously not seen or told them about. Generally in an ad I state my price and am pretty inflexible about discounting it. I research the market and know what it is worth. If it has not sold after a period of time I may lower the selling price in the ad but it is very rare I would ever accept an offer lower than my selling price. I've been able to sell a lot of gear on Craig's List this way. Research, price fairly, respond to every enquiry even if it's just to say no thank, and don't budge on price. When I buy gear I almost always make a reasonable offer first. Depending on the seller's attitude I may or may not raise my offer. If they are sarcastic or implying I am an idiot for my offer I move on to the next deal.


The thing is he wasn't saying he couldn't afford it. He was doing his best to pick it apart. He was crawling under it and stated that the whole floor was rusted out and he was trying to pick apart every little mark on the vehicle. I didn't crawl under the vehicle to check his claims of the floor being rusted out but I doubted it was. It was a van that had 220,000km on it, there was no rust whatsoever topside and I had 2k in a newly rebuilt transmission. From my research I had it priced about 1 k lower than the lowest price I could find. I really just wanted to get it out of the driveway so I could get my brand new Honda CRV in there. So I was willing to to deal a little. But showing up and trying to pick out phantom faults to try and get it for 50% or less really aggravates me. So I did say I'd knock $100 off and that was it other wise I'd let it sit there and he could take his long drive home. The fact that he took it tells me the floor wasn't rusted out. The funny thing is that if he'd have approached this differently, like agree that it was fairly priced, acted like he was on the fence and maybe not volunteer that he didn't make a long trip I probably would have let it go for $1,500 ($500 off) just to get it out of my driveway.
I had a guy drive all the way from scarborough to look at a as new mint guitar I had for sale and he tried to pick it apart and say there were nicks and gouges in the top that I didn't tell him about. I was there with a powerful magnifying glass trying to find these said gouges while he was rubbing his finger over spots on the top saying, "see can't you feel that? It feels uneven"? I almost wanted to kick him out of my house but I was anxious to sell as I wanted to go to folkway the next day to pick up the D-18 authentic that I bought.
That seller after 3 hours in my house, playing with it and trying to low ball me finally paid what I was asking. I was determined to take no less than asking. I don't mind lowballers and don't get mad at them unless they waste my time. This is why many lowballers on Kijiji get no response from me. 
Yeah you could interact with them as its a possible sale that you shouldn't discount but most times they end up being more pain in the ass then they're worth.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

dmc69 said:


> ... unless they're a total idiot.


You're saying that as if it's somehow unlikely.



dmc69 said:


> Negotiate with me beforehand, or GTFO.


Obviously agree.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Kerry Brown said:


> I have to agree with this. I have enough sales experience to know when a deal has been closed. If someone sends a few emails then drives to view an item you can be pretty sure they have the money with them. I never change my price in that case unless they point out some flaw that I had previously not seen or told them about. Generally in an ad I state my price and am pretty inflexible about discounting it. I research the market and know what it is worth. If it has not sold after a period of time I may lower the selling price in the ad but it is very rare I would ever accept an offer lower than my selling price. I've been able to sell a lot of gear on Craig's List this way. Research, price fairly, respond to every enquiry even if it's just to say no thank, and don't budge on price. When I buy gear I almost always make a reasonable offer first. Depending on the seller's attitude I may or may not raise my offer. If they are sarcastic or implying I am an idiot for my offer I move on to the next deal.


Is your approach symmetric? Not judging the approach, trying to establish if you perceive this to be self-consistent.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

LexxM3 said:


> Is your approach symmetric? Not judging the approach, trying to establish if you perceive this to be self-consistent.


Of course it's not symmetric. My motto when buying is it never hurts to ask. Not everyone prices and sells things the way I do. I ran several retail stores selling fairly high end electronics. I learned over time that each sale is different because different people are involved. The most important thing for me is being consistent, polite, and never question the integrity of the other person. If I doubt their integrity I walk away, doesn't matter if I'm buying or selling. The best advice I ever got on making a deal was in Egypt. I was buying a ferry ticket for a ferry across the Nile. I was charged double what the Egyptian in front of me paid. I was used to bargaining for everything. It is their culture. When I tried to get a lower price the ticket seller said no way. I know this is peanuts to you. What is it worth it to you to get on this ferry? He was right. I was arguing over what amounted to a two dollar ticket. If it is worth it to both sides it is a fair deal. The actual value of the item on the open market is irrelevant. At the time the deal is struck both parties agreed on the value there and then.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Fair enough. Since you don't seem to expect the other side to be symmetric or even similar to your approach, I have nothing to comment on. Except, respect = yes!


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Just saw the most constructive version of this type of "directive" in a Kijiji ad: "*Open to offers, low ball offers will be countered.*" If I ever include any statement about "lowballers" on my ads (I have not ever stated that), this is the form I would copy.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I once saw something overpriced by a large margin--probably about 60-75% more than what you could get it for (i forget what guitar it was)
I sent a message to the seller asking politely, why he had it priced that way--he did respond--also politely--that he was tired of lowballers --so if people were going to slash his asking price like they normally do--he was going to ask for a ridiculous price & see if they made him a fair offer--thinking they were lowballing.

I didn't respond-while I get raising the price a bit isn't a bad idea--giving you room to negotiate ( know that's not everybody's style--but people who do that--it makes sense to me) but he went overboard--must have been some aggressive low ballers. (I encountered a few myself--but I haven't put anything up for sale a in a long time--and I normally don't get that many.


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