# Different levels of commitment and motivation



## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

What do you guys do if your bandmates differ in their degrees of motivation and commitment? I am the singer/guitarist in a three-piece and I put in more thought and energy into the band than the others. I'm getting tired, and I'm not even inspired to write songs anymore as I feel that my work/time is not just reciprocated but not even overtly appreciated.

I have tried to communicate my issues in person, but did not get back a sense of renewed enthusiasm/commitment. Over group chats on facebook, my messages are often read but there may not be a response for a week or so.

I have played with these guys for a few years, and I actually consider them good friends, but as bandmates I'm starting to get uninspired and annoyed. We've reached a plateau/crossroads and I'd like to push further, but I think the other guys are content to keep things as is in terms of their effort.

We're all in our 30s-40s, so not new to bands or anything like that.

How do you normally deal with this?


----------



## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Sorry to hear about your troubles...

Had a similar situation before with a band so kept it casual with them and treated it as jam sessions. 

I joined another band at the same time, this new band was ticking and we quickly got contracts within the first 3 months. .. it was amazing. .. exept the lead guitarist decided to start sleeping with the singer after band reheasals and his wife caught them !!! Lol...

Since reheasals were at the guitarist's wife home... that kind of killed the band... I had 1 hour to come and get my PA system and all my bass gear or she was putting it out to the curb... lol...

I say . Keep jamming with your buddies but find another band with your sense of commitment... 

And don' sleep with the singer !!!


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

What @Frenchy99 said.

Be musically promiscuous and not the other type.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Find a band doing what you want to do and get in there.

Worked for me.


----------



## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Thanks for the replies. I'm leaning toward the idea of having a side project that hopefully is/becomes more serious than what I currently have.
I just wanted to clarify that it's not that the guys I play with have little commitment. It's just that it's less than mine. They still show up to rehearse usually 1-2 times a week. But little beyond that in terms of advancing the goals of the band like promotion, responding to messages/emails, etc. In truth they are likely far more committed/motivated than most people I could find if I put up an ad on Kijiji.
They are actually motivated enough that it would be difficult to find a new band while keeping the current band alive without contributing new songs on my part. That has been how we operate so far. If we keep playing the old stuff, everyone will get bored.


----------



## keto (May 23, 2006)

Tough one. You’re probably right that you’re unlikely to find as good a level of commitment as what you have now from kijiji recruits, given your current guys still come out 1-2x/week. You’ll have to find your own internal motivation if you want to keep adding material plus doing promo/finding gigs.

You could put together a side project, but that’s not doing anything to further your current one and may even detract. For me, who is not a promoter or writer, more projects were a partial answer, but I still left a band I’d been in for 6 years, due to lack of progress and different member goals (or lack of them).


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Sounds like you're bored and should probably quit. If they just reap the benefit of your hard work, what's the point? Just to play music? You're in Montreal, a city with a pretty good music scene. If you keep settling on bandmates, you're never going to get better bandmates.

The band I had started before I joined Sparrows, I wanted to play some gigs. Our only gigs came right before I quit to put everything into the professional band. The band before that, I quit because they wanted to party more than try to book shows outside of the GTA.

Maybe it's time for a solo project.


----------



## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

When I retired I moved away from anyone I remotely played with. I just noodle now and am fine with that. I get enough ideas from the internet to keep on going. I wish the internet was around in the mid 70s when I quit for 30 years. It was the internet that got me started again,


----------



## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Good reliable bass players and drummers are not easy to come by. Especially ones willing to play your original songs probably for little to no money. Find another guitarist with similar goals to yours? Also keep in mind that good friends are harder to come by.


----------



## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Budda said:


> Maybe it's time for a solo project.


 No chance that would be my main project. I need other people's energy... I'm like a vampire. But a friendly one.



Guncho said:


> Good reliable bass players and drummers are not easy to come by. Especially ones willing to play your original songs probably for little to no money. Find another guitarist with similar goals to yours? Also keep in mind that good friends are harder to come by.


 This is really excellent advice. It really helped to keep things in perspective. Thanks Guncho! We're rehearsing tomorrow so I'm sure we'll talk at some point. I hope it goes well.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

It hasnt gone well though. You keep voicing your thoughts and concerns and nothing changes.

You cant complain if you choose to keep beating your head against a wall. Get out. There *are* other committed, serious musicians out there. So long as you stay in the safety net of your current band, you probably wont find them.

Signed, 8 months without a bassist at a touring level.


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I've found myself in this exact situation a few times. It sucks. Broken promises, no-shows, late arrivals, sudden departures, AWOLs...sweet dick all we can do about it. Smaller groups, particularly duos, seem to work better for me, but it takes the right person. 

I don't have a solution. Sorry. People suck. 

(In recent years I've become less able to handle crowds, confined spaces/audiences, without some anxiety. Nor sure what triggers it, but I'm happier when I'm away from a lot of stuff going on around me. This has made it easier to deal with the non-compliance of band members, and I've drifted into recording myself, mostly solo. This year I'll have less than half a dozen gigs, the fewest in decades, unless something comes up that I can't refuse.)


----------



## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

I think you need to ask yourself and your friends what your goals are. Are you trying to get signed as an original artist or are you just looking to write some songs and play them for fun.

What are you thinking could happen if everyone was as committed as you are?


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Funny enough, as commitment goes, I'm probably somewhere in the middle with my current band. I'm not much into the 'marketing' and 'getting us gigs' thing. I don't network as much as a couple of other guys and they find more gigs than I do. I guess if I stumble over a potential gig, I'll push for it, but I don't 'pound the pavement' looking.

OTOH, I'm very keen to learn new tunes and I try and bring new stuff to the group as well. I learn my parts, suggest arrangements, work with them on vocal harmonies. That's the stuff I enjoy doing. 

It bugs me that as more of a rocker, many of my ideas get criticized/shot down by the keyboard player, who is into lighter stuff. He flat out refuses to play some heavier stuff, while I still bite me lip and play stuff like Leave Your Hat On, which is more his kinda thing. 

But it could be worse. At least the keyboard player learns his parts and shows up for practice, he just doesn't participate much in setting up and tearing down gear (he takes an hour putting up his stand, 1 keyboard, mic and monitor). The last keyboard player was 3 months in and doing gigs, and was still shouting at me (we share stage right) about "how does The Dark Side start again". He was also more interested in partying and arranging for me to 'designate drive' him so he could drink his face off.

I've always said a band is like a marriage, but with more than two people involved. And the degree of difficulty of getting consensus with a group is the square of the number of people involved. I guess what I'm saying is we all need to be flexible and accommodating and tolerant of others or it will never work out. I know this also happens with pro bands, so it isn't like it's just at the more amateur levels that this happens. I sometimes wonder how bands like Yes, The Eagles and many others, were as stable as they were and didn't explode on a weekly/monthly basis. Maybe they did and we just didn't hear about it.


----------



## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Just to give everyone an update...
We had a really good talk at our last rehearsal. What came out was rather interesting. On the one hand, Guncho was right. The drummer felt that in our trio I tended to exert more power in terms of influencing decisions and such, therefore, I should be okay with assuming more responsibility. I totally see his point, with some caveats which I'll get into below. The big bomb was that the bassist announced to us that he will be going on an academic exchange for a year starting in the winter semester of next year (I presume Jan. 2019). So, all of this explains and confirms a lot in terms of my observation that there were differing levels of commitment and motivation in the band.

The idea of being the leader in the band, and therefore holding more responsibility/duties is new to me. But, it's also the first time I've been in a trio. Reflecting on things from the past, I find that when there was a second (lead) guitarist involved, that person would always do a lot for the band. Given that I'm the singer/sole guitarist in the band (and we jam at my house), I think with good reason things are skewed a lot more in my direction. But I don't know what are the implications going forward in terms of benefits/rewards. For example, say it takes me 10 hours to design a T-shirt, arrange for its printing, etc. Should the 3 members of the band split the profits evenly? Or what if I mix and promote the entire EP myself (that's the plan)? Does that mean I should get a larger cut of sales? I've never been in this scenario before... I'll be talking with the drummer about the future of the band shortly, but would love to get some insight from you guys beforehand.


----------



## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

I think maybe you should worry about profits when there's enough profits to worry about. Just focus on making good music.


----------



## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Guncho said:


> I think you need to ask yourself and your friends what your goals are. Are you trying to get signed as an original artist or are you just looking to write some songs and play them for fun.
> 
> What are you thinking could happen if everyone was as committed as you are?


I am a rather odd bird... I have a full time and satisfying job, and I have a family. But, I am obsessed with music and advancing the band. To directly answer your question, my ultimate goal is to be known locally as one of the more kick-ass rock bands, and to even play a festival or two in Quebec. That's it. But that also takes a ton of work and ambition. I don't have such lofty goals as going on a world tour, or making a living out of music. 



Guncho said:


> I think maybe you should worry about profits when there's enough profits to worry about. Just focus on making good music.


I see your point, but it's not hard to make a bit of money with some effort (emphasizing the "bit"). I could make some tees and have them sold at a profit for our next show. The profits would be slim, yes, but the tees also serve as promotional material which I think is important. Making good music in my case also implies devoting 30+ hours to mixing after we record the EP. I'm confident (I need to be!) that we can generate sales with the EP too, but it will take a lot of effort on my part, so I need any and all forms of motivation to keep me going. In the end, I think it's important to have these conversations earlier rather than later.


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

isoneedacoffee said:


> The idea of being the leader in the band, and therefore holding more responsibility/duties is new to me. But, it's also the first time I've been in a trio. Reflecting on things from the past, I find that when there was a second (lead) guitarist involved, that person would always do a lot for the band. Given that I'm the singer/sole guitarist in the band (and we jam at my house), I think with good reason things are skewed a lot more in my direction. But I don't know what are the implications going forward in terms of benefits/rewards. For example, say it takes me 10 hours to design a T-shirt, arrange for its printing, etc. Should the 3 members of the band split the profits evenly? Or what if I mix and promote the entire EP myself (that's the plan)? Does that mean I should get a larger cut of sales? I've never been in this scenario before... I'll be talking with the drummer about the future of the band shortly, but would love to get some insight from you guys beforehand.


I don't know the answer to your questions - I suspect it's specific to each situation. But I think you should have a clear understanding with the other band member(s) before going ahead with anything. 

I had some buddies who did some recording and released a CD. One member borrow from the others (had them cover his nut, basically) to make it happen and then, when it didn't sell, he reneged on payback, since there was no profits. You can be damn sure he would've been in there if there were some profits to split. He wasn't worth the crap the other guys had to put up. Fortunately, none of us have seen or heard from him since that happened.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

isoneedacoffee said:


> I see your point, but it's not hard to make a bit of money with some effort (emphasizing the "bit"). I could make some tees and have them sold at a profit for our next show. The profits would be slim, yes, but the tees also serve as promotional material which I think is important. Making good music in my case also implies devoting 30+ hours to mixing after we record the EP. I'm confident (I need to be!) that we can generate sales with the EP too, but it will take a lot of effort on my part, so I need any and all forms of motivation to keep me going. In the end, I think it's important to have these conversations earlier rather than later.


What is your goal with the profits? Are they to pay you and the band, or are they to put back into the business (because bands that get paid are businesses) to grow said business?

Sure, my band could split up all the money from playing shows on the road... but then we're just going to be putting that money straight back into the next thing that requires it.

If you guys are splitting up money from shows and merch, you're probably going to want to put something in writing. People get shitty over money.


----------



## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

isoneedacoffee said:


> I am a rather odd bird... I have a full time and satisfying job, and I have a family. But, I am obsessed with music and advancing the band. To directly answer your question, my ultimate goal is to be known locally as one of the more kick-ass rock bands, and to even play a festival or two in Quebec. That's it. But that also takes a ton of work and ambition. I don't have such lofty goals as going on a world tour, or making a living out of music.
> 
> 
> I see your point, but it's not hard to make a bit of money with some effort (emphasizing the "bit"). I could make some tees and have them sold at a profit for our next show. The profits would be slim, yes, but the tees also serve as promotional material which I think is important. Making good music in my case also implies devoting 30+ hours to mixing after we record the EP. I'm confident (I need to be!) that we can generate sales with the EP too, but it will take a lot of effort on my part, so I need any and all forms of motivation to keep me going. In the end, I think it's important to have these conversations earlier rather than later.


I don't want to scuttle your dreams but you said everyone was 30's-40's. What are the odds that your band is going to be successful enough that how royalties and money from merch are divided is even an issue.


----------



## Guest (Jun 19, 2018)

Here's my commitment to the band.


----------



## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Guncho said:


> I don't want to scuttle your dreams but you said everyone was 30's-40's. What are the odds that your band is going to be successful enough that how royalties and money from merch are divided is even an issue.


I'm ok with the possibility of not realizing my goals, but I'm not okay with not trying to achieve them. The idea of making no effort to achieve them would suck all motivation out of me. 

As for the odds, here is a plausible and specific scenario. What if over a year the band were to sell 100 shirts with a $5 profit margin on each? That's $500. What if sales were to double the next year, and so on? If one individual does all the design work, all the management/promotion of the band, writes all the music/lyrics, provides the rehearsal space for free, etc. do you not see this as a potential issue without there being certain agreements in place?



Budda said:


> What is your goal with the profits? Are they to pay you and the band, or are they to put back into the business (because bands that get paid are businesses) to grow said business?
> . . . . People get shitty over money.


 I think putting money back into the business for the sake of growing the business is a sound idea, but it doesn't get to the heart of the issue and in some ways delays the inevitable which is how are things to be split in the future depending on roles/responsibilities within the band? In short, one only returns the money to the band as a sort of investment in the project. One does so with the hope of a return. Once the investment starts making a return, how is that to be divided? It's possible that someone down the line will claim more rights? What if a bandmate leaves? Are they owed money? How is it calculated? Who owns the bandname? You're right that people get shitty over money... and I feel shitty even talking about it. 

As I said, this is a very unique scenario for me. I've been is successful bands before, and always operated under the assumption that everyone in the band is equal and everyone does their best to contribute to the band's success. In previous bands, things were not always absolutely equal, but I never felt taken advantage of, as I do now. If things in my current band are not equal in terms of responsibility, then I think things have to be reevaluated in terms of how we all benefit from the efforts that are being made. And I guess my question comes down to is the benefit only more creative control as I write the songs? If so, I'm sure others would say, that's enough, and maybe it should be enough for me too. But to be clear other aspects of being a band leader in this scenario are not "benefits" at all, even though they display control: scheduling rehearsals, shows, managing social media, etc. They are distracting, time-consuming and require work. I don't want to continue feeling resentment toward my bandmates. I think clarity will help, so I'm hoping to get more feedback.


----------



## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Honestly I would just stop worrying about how to divvy up money you haven't made yet and make the best music you can and have fun doing it. If you make it then you can fire them and hire people more motivated.

If your current bandmates are not willing to put more effort into it and you can't accept that then find new bandmates.


----------



## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

One approach would be to officially make the band "your band". Pay the others a flat rate for gigs and recording and give them proper credit for anything they write. Then any profit or loss is yours to do with as you see fit. See: Frank Zappa.


----------



## keto (May 23, 2006)

bw66 said:


> One approach would be to officially make the band "your band". Pay the others a flat rate for gigs and recording and give them proper credit for anything they write. Then any profit or loss is yours to do with as you see fit. See: Frank Zappa.


Yeah, pretty much this...it almost has to be either this, or put up and shut up and keep on with the cooperative/commune approach that, despite you doing the most part of the work, all net proceeds are divided equally. Some bands operate that way, for example supposedly U2. The chemistry/relationships/all pulling in the same direction even if not equally is worth something, but not to everybody.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

You're worrying about money you don't have yet, in situations you haven't come across yet.

The posts above are quite accurate. You need to have another meeting. At that meeting, either you declare the band your band and all that goes with that, and have a formal agreement which states that the other two are your employees (at that point, they are) OR you suck it up and put in more work with equal benefit.

Honestly it sounds like you need to hire people to be in your band, because your way is definitely not working.


----------



## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

My advice, make it clear that it is your band. If I understood you correctly, you write the songs. Which gives you more leverage. At least that's how I think. I've played in a lot of bands with different people. I've learned that when all you deal with each other is music, there is less conflict. That's what you are all there for. I've had guys I had to let go and guys that leave too. I just move on find another player. Also if you play good music and find the right people to play with, it makes it a lot easier. And most don'tcomplain about not being paid for gigs e.  If we made some money, it;s great. But the focus really is the music.


----------



## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Thanks for all the advice guys. Since the bassist is leaving, the drummer and I will have a chance to talk about what that means in terms of the direction of the band, so it's a bit of an opportunity for further clarity which I would like to take advantage of. I regret not making things a bit clearer in my earlier posts as it seems that some details about my goals and my character did not come across as I would have liked. I fear I came across as a money-hungry despot to some of you. I just want to clarify that I've been playing in bands for 27 years (with about a 10 year break in between). I've never been in a tense situation with any of them in terms of roles and such. Of those bands, 4 of them were serious to the extent that they each lasted at least 2 years, with weekly rehearsals and regular gigs. All the bands ended very amicably and I'm still friends with all my former bandmates. Despite being the (or one of the) main creative force(s) in most of them, the subject of roles, duties, benefits, money, etc. has never even been discussed. I don't think it was necessary. On my end, in certain bands the load was shared more equitably... or in other bands I may have put more work into it, but I always felt any extra effort was acknowledged. Anyway thanks again guys! You're comments were really appreciated and helpful!


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I have faith you will get things where you want them. The first step is good communication, and that seems to be coming along.

Good luck!


----------



## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Budda said:


> I have faith you will get things where you want them. The first step is good communication, and that seems to be coming along.
> 
> Good luck!


Thanks Budda. Very much appreciated.


----------



## Guest (Jun 20, 2018)

You could always divide the money into 4, where you take the extra 4th cut for booking, rehearsal space, design, media etc. etc. If you do all the extra work, you get an extra share.


----------



## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Or you tell your bandmates you are going to make more than them because they don't do as much work they quit and now you get 100% of $0.00.


----------

