# Ceriatone's New Dumble Clone Kit



## Guest (Oct 12, 2007)

I was all set to order one of their 18W kits for a winter project but now that they've announced the Overtone I think I'll hold off. If it cops the sound they claim it'll cop...sweet.


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## Tybone (Feb 12, 2006)

This things looks nice. No post overdrive tone stack, loop, tone stack shaping switches. All you need now is a 4x12 with tone tubby hempcones.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2007)

I'm actually leaning more towards their Trainwreck clone now. I'll let other people work out the bugs in their 1.0 Dumble kit.


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## kirk1701 (Sep 14, 2007)

yeesh, ceriatone has great prices, but they're made in Malaysia. I'd be careful


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## Guest (Oct 15, 2007)

kirk1701 said:


> yeesh, ceriatone has great prices, but they're made in Malaysia. I'd be careful


What specifically do think is made in Malaysia? The components or the fully assembled amps? I'm only looking at the components here. Assembly will be done here in Canada at my house.


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## bogoboy (May 21, 2006)

Although the Ceriatone's prices can't be beat. The Quality, tech support and sound can't be beat from Trinity Amps - their made (kits as well) in Canada!

Bogoboy


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2007)

bogoboy said:


> Although the Ceriatone's prices can't be beat. The Quality, tech support and sound can't be beat from Trinity Amps - their made (kits as well) in Canada!


Now that's a reason to look at Trinity amps. I'll buy Canadian if they've got what I want.

Edit: I'm looking at their site now. They don't do a Dumble or Trainwreck clone. Scratch them off the list.


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## Kapo_Polenton (Jun 20, 2007)

iaresee, we might have to do another group order but out to malasia this time!!! ..but i have got to concentrate on peicing together a bad ass looking 80's hotrodded strat first. i am tempted to do a tiger strype Lynch guitar just to be loud and arrogant. Imagine coming out on stage in some pub with a guitar like that when everyone else is playing standard numetal looking guitars or classic guitars lol. But anyway back to the trainwreck, their clone soide by side with a real trainwreck was extremely close when i heard the clips man.. that would be a good choice. you could also make the JAVA kit from weber which is his take on the trainwreck clone.. I confirmed that. You would get the head case with it as well.. under 500$ my friend.. build it yourself and just upgrade some of the smaller parts. a lot of it is budget but the amp should sound good if you pay atention to detail and wire it clean. If you don't..you end up with my plexi lol. Sounded great until i blew something the other day..


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

kirk1701 said:


> yeesh, ceriatone has great prices, but they're made in Malaysia. I'd be careful


I'm kind of wondering what you mean by that. Are you suggesting that the skill level with which anything might be assembled is less than what is found in North America? I would find that offensively ethnocentric and perhaps racist. I could understand if you are thinking that random components made in parts of Asia may be lower quality because of a lot of times their isn't a concentration on quality with some manufacturers. 
However, from what I have seen, Nik at Ceriatone seems to choose decent parts for his kits. I think he could make his prices quite a bit cheaper if he didn't choose to ensure quality parts.
From what I understand, there are cheaper kits out there (like Weber), but you can't count on the same kind of quality as I think Ceriatone has. Everything seems well engineered and selected.
Maybe I'm biased though, because I have a ceriatone DC30 and no one wants to believe that they bought crap. But I have been looking around because I'm interested in another build and I am a cheapskate, but I will probably choose Ceriatone again because I want the quality.

Then again, maybe you are suggesting we should be careful because of customs Canada charging who-knows-what for importing something from Malaysia. That whole unknown factor is the strongest factor driving me to try and find stuff in Canada.


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## Kapo_Polenton (Jun 20, 2007)

I think he meant the latter.... Besides, it isn't that i wouldn't trust Nick, i just wouldn't trust Malaysian customs if anybody..


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2007)

Kapo_Polenton said:


> iaresee, we might have to do another group order but out to malasia this time!!!


I like that idea! Give me until November and I'll know what my budget is like (have to see how much money this pending kid eats from my fun money account). It may be a Champ kit for me.  But there will be a winter amp build. I'll drop you a PM when I know what I'm going to spend.



> ..but i have got to concentrate on peicing together a bad ass looking 80's hotrodded strat first. i am tempted to do a tiger strype Lynch guitar just to be loud and arrogant. Imagine coming out on stage in some pub with a guitar like that when everyone else is playing standard numetal looking guitars or classic guitars lol.


Yea man! Or a J.Frog type skull thing. That'd be kick ass. The recent trend in guitars is all good and nice, but no one does over-the-top show off stuff anymore.



> But anyway back to the trainwreck, their clone soide by side with a real trainwreck was extremely close when i heard the clips man.. that would be a good choice. you could also make the JAVA kit from weber which is his take on the trainwreck clone.. I confirmed that. You would get the head case with it as well.. under 500$ my friend.. build it yourself and just upgrade some of the smaller parts. a lot of it is budget but the amp should sound good if you pay atention to detail and wire it clean. If you don't..you end up with my plexi lol. Sounded great until i blew something the other day..


Cool. I'm more into the Trainwreck I think. Dumble's just have the mystique but every Dumble I've heard so far is too grainy. More for fusion than rock.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2007)

bcmatt said:


> I'm kind of wondering what you mean by that. Are you suggesting that the skill level with which anything might be assembled is less than what is found in North America? I would find that offensively ethnocentric and perhaps racist.


Hehehe. I was trying a slightly less blunt way to get to this point. I work with Malaysian electrical and computer engineers every day and they are every bit as smart and proficient as my North American and European colleagues.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

Heheh, ya, perhaps I was a bit blunt. I was pretty sure that that's not what he meant to say anyways. So I figured if I got it clarified, he could avoid misleading people into believing he meant something damaging.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

iaresee said:


> Hehehe. I was trying a slightly less blunt way to get to this point. I work with Malaysian electrical and computer engineers every day and they are every bit as smart and proficient as my North American and European colleagues.


And that's a plus?:smile:

When I was on the road selling electronic parts I would visit both buyers and engineers. With the engineers once we got to know one another and the talk might turn to hobbies they were always shocked to learn I built with tubes!

The initial response was always the same, to a man. They would laugh! "Why in the world would you use tubes when transistors are so much cheaper, easier and cleaner?"

So I would explain the difference in application. Since none of them were ever players themselves they thought of amplifiers in terms of linearity. Solid state was more linear and hence more desirable. I had to educate them that an electric guitar amp was SUPPOSED to distort! And that solid state distortion tended to be harsher and less pleasant than that obtained from tubes. That was when I first started using my catch phrase "What guitarist would want a hifi amp?"

When CBS bought Fender they brought in some great engineers with impressive resumes. I swear they were all hifi guys. They knew their tubes but seemed to have little or no experience with guitar amps and guitar players. The fact that the SilverFace models tanked on the market to the point where CBS bailed and sold the company to the employees speaks for itself.

My point is that simply being an engineer is not enough. You need one with experience in the application. Most of the guys selling retro reverse-engineered versions of classic output transformers are not engineers but rather very experienced techs, who understand all the parameters of the application intuitively.

Would you care to guess if when a company selling guitar amps and associated products turns its production over to China does it have engineering talk to their Chinese counterparts first or is it driven by the "suits" from accounting? They are looking for cost savings first and I would point out that the poor tone we hear from many of these products is direct evidence of this.

Celestion is now owned by China and they have almost all the production. There's a reason why vintage units on Ebay go for higher than new prices. They simply don't sound the same.

Why are all the guys buying Epiphone Jr.'s replacing the output transformer?

I'm just pointing out that there is engineering and there is engineering...

:food-smiley-004:


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2007)

Wild Bill said:


> And that's a plus?:smile:


That smart people exist around the world? Seems like a bonus to me. They're in short supply around these parts.

I (and bcmatt) are suggesting that broad, sweeping (and yes racist) generalizations about the quality of a product based on it's country of origin are unnecessary. To say a product is inferior simply because it's Malaysian (or Japanese, or French, or Thia, or even North American for that matter) just shows a simplicity of mind that I can't tolerate. Maybe pre-built Ceriatone amps are great, maybe they aren't. Either way it's going to be because of the people who made them, not the country they came from, the colour of their skin or the language they happen to speak. You'll find people in all places around the world who care, and people who don't, about the work they do.


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## bogoboy (May 21, 2006)

iaresee said:


> Now that's a reason to look at Trinity amps. I'll buy Canadian if they've got what I want.
> 
> Edit: I'm looking at their site now. They don't do a Dumble or Trainwreck clone. Scratch them off the list.


Ask (email) Stephen

He doesn't list everything -he may have some suggestions for you.

Bogoboy


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## µ¿ z3®ø™ (Apr 29, 2006)

the ceriatone d*mble 'clone' is a rather interesting beast to try and tackle. from what i've seen, it's a mish-mash of various internet available schematics (nothing wrong w/ that) and i'm sure that nic has pieced together a decent sounding amp. 
having said that, the more notable d*mbles tend to be high voltage mosters that border on the verge of instability and require a personalised touch to make them usable. because of the high voltages, some of the parts are exceedingly expensive (power and output iron) and i wonder what compromises nik has settled on to make the kit feasible for someone w/ no experience w/ such designs and still sell for 8 bills (make that 8 1/2 USD bills. /jk). 
i doubt the amp will be a dog, regardless.
anybody that does buy one of the ceriatone kits and would like to see how it compares to my amp, i'm just as curious as U are. feel free to PM me.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2007)

µ¿ z3®ø™ said:


> the ceriatone d*mble 'clone' is a rather interesting beast to try and tackle. from what i've seen, it's a mish-mash of various internet available schematics (nothing wrong w/ that) and i'm sure that nic has pieced together a decent sounding amp.
> having said that, the more notable d*mbles tend to be high voltage mosters that border on the verge of instability and require a personalised touch to make them usable. because of the high voltages, some of the parts are exceedingly expensive (power and output iron) and i wonder what compromises nik has settled on to make the kit feasible for someone w/ no experience w/ such designs and still sell for 8 bills (make that 8 1/2 USD bills. /jk).
> i doubt the amp will be a dog, regardless.


The reports coming in from other boards where some people have had a chance to touch the preview models are that it's a very close approximation.



> anybody that does buy one of the ceriatone kits and would like to see how it compares to my amp, i'm just as curious as U are. feel free to PM me.


Am I reading that right? You have The Real Deal?


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

iaresee said:


> That smart people exist around the world? Seems like a bonus to me. They're in short supply around these parts.
> 
> I (and bcmatt) are suggesting that broad, sweeping (and yes racist) generalizations about the quality of a product based on it's country of origin are unnecessary. To say a product is inferior simply because it's Malaysian (or Japanese, or French, or Thia, or even North American for that matter) just shows a simplicity of mind that I can't tolerate. Maybe pre-built Ceriatone amps are great, maybe they aren't. Either way it's going to be because of the people who made them, not the country they came from, the colour of their skin or the language they happen to speak. You'll find people in all places around the world who care, and people who don't, about the work they do.


Who mentioned race? Besides you?

People say that a product is inferior because it often is! If such products tend to come from a specific country then that's not racism. It may be "country-ism" but race is irrelevant. How many countries today are populated by only one race? Race has nothing to do with using leaded paints in toys or strange chemicals in food products. Race has nothing to do with making an output transformer that doesn't sound like a vintage one.

Leaving corruption issues aside, it has to do with experience! There are a host of factors involved in why a vintage transformer sounds different than a new one. Hell, some new company bought the old rights to the Drake Transformer name so that new Marshalls could appear with "Drake Transformers! Just like the old days!" The transformers are not made the same way as the old ones and do not sound the same. It's just a lawyer trick about the name. If I criticize these new Drake Transformers am I guilty of racism towards the British?

Are you aware that virtually every electronic engineer today likely knows diddley-squat about tubes? When I graduated high school in 70-71 Ontario had just opened the new community colleges. The local one was Mohawk College and because I soon worked in an electronics store I learned from the students about their teachings. Vacuum tube technology has never been taught at all in the electronics department! By the time the school opened the world had already gone solid state for mainstream electronics. The teaching of tubes had been abandoned.

That was over 35 years ago! How likely are you to find an engineer who knows anything about building with vacuum tubes? How many of these are familiar with guitar amp factors and not just how to make a "hifi" amp? How is race a factor?

If you want to market a line of tube guitar amps you better pay more attention to the experience of an engineer than just his diploma. They don't teach them EVERYTHING in school, you know! If you think that you can just hire anybody with a degree in electrical engineering you'll probably go bankrupt. Frankly, your amps will likely suck!

Vintage tube technologies were mostly a western society thing, simply because in 1929 or whatever we were more developed. There were decades of evolution in products and designs. A country that has only been developed in the past few decades will lack that history. Besides, it's obvious that they have not been asked to duplicate vintage tube sound. They've been asked to make CHEAP tube amps! Not at all the same thing.

They may care deeply about the quality of their worksmanship but that doesn't mean if they are making output transformers they know everything the Drake engineers had discovered on their own and never put into a schoolbook!

People who don't know a vacuum tube from a fuse or where to stick either of them  tend to assume that anybody with a soldering iron degree must know all about anything that has volts. It's just not that simple. 

If all you can see is the price then you deserve whatever you get!

:food-smiley-004:


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2007)

Wild Bill said:


> Who mentioned race? Besides you?


kirk1701 -- you just happened to add your $0.02 to our comments to him.



> If I criticize these new Drake Transformers am I guilty of racism towards the British?


Not at all, because you're talking about a transformer. Read kirk1701's original comment. All he said was they come from Malaysia. Nothing specific. Nothing like the transformers aren't great, or the caps are inferior and tend to explode, just that they come from Malaysia.



> Are you aware that virtually every electronic engineer today likely knows diddley-squat about tubes?


See, now you've gone off and insulted my noble profession. Are you aware that you are wrong? Being an Electrical Engineer I can speak with authority that there are plenty of us out there who understand vacuum tube transistor technology, both in the their application in analog audio amplification and elsewhere. The whole world hasn't got solid state as you suggest.



> That was over 35 years ago! How likely are you to find an engineer who knows anything about building with vacuum tubes? How many of these are familiar with guitar amp factors and not just how to make a "hifi" amp? How is race a factor?


You're talking to one now (admittedly the manufacturing of tubes is not something I know with a lot of depth, but the application...no problem). And I've got an entire graduating class of people who also have my knowledge.

Race is a factor because kirk1701 didn't mention anything other than "they were made in Malaysia". If had some specific criticism about the parts in the kit or their manufacturing process it wouldn't have been a problem.



> They don't teach them EVERYTHING in school, you know! If you think that you can just hire anybody with a degree in electrical engineering you'll probably go bankrupt. Frankly, your amps will likely suck!


Really Bill? Damn. They promised me they'd teach me _everything_ in school. You've just shattered my world. Do you really think every person that touched a Black Face-era Fender Reverb was an engineering expert in their field? That once Jim Marshall designed an amplifier he only had an elite team of 20 people with 30 years of experience each build them for the world? Doesn't work like that Bill. Yes, you need someone at the top with knowledge and experience designing your product. But when it comes to manufacturing you need people who care about their jobs and what they're building. They need basic skills, but not a lifetime of experience. This particularly true if the product is designed well.



> Vintage tube technologies were mostly a western society thing, simply because in 1929 or whatever we were more developed. There were decades of evolution in products and designs. A country that has only been developed in the past few decades will lack that history.


So are cars and that technology has been mastered over and over by engineers in other nations. That argument doesn't fly here. You don't have to pass through all stages of evolution of a technology in real time in order to master it, build with it and improve it. If that was the case Moore's Law wouldn't hold. Every new engineer would be catching up to Ohm and Volta.



> People who don't know a vacuum tube from a fuse or where to stick either of them  tend to assume that anybody with a soldering iron degree must know all about anything that has volts. It's just not that simple.


Was that shot aimed at me?



> If all you can see is the price then you deserve whatever you get!


No one said anything about price. kirk1701 made a vague comment about the amps and Malaysia and we asked him to clarify. Otherwise we're talking about the possibility that a Dumble-style amp could be available in kit form.



> :food-smiley-004:


:food-smiley-004:


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

iaresee said:


> See, now you've gone off and insulted my noble profession. Are you aware that you are wrong? Being an Electrical Engineer I can speak with authority that there are plenty of us out there who understand vacuum tube transistor technology, both in the their application in analog audio amplification and elsewhere. The whole world hasn't got solid state as you suggest.
> 
> 
> You're talking to one now (admittedly the manufacturing of tubes is not something I know with a lot of depth, but the application...no problem). And I've got an entire graduating class of people who also have my knowledge.


I did not say that there are NO engineers who understand tubes. I said that schools no longer teach tube technology. You claim different, from personal experience. I would first ask, how old are you? Is your claim current?

More than that, how much time is spent on vacuum tubes? Is it just a quick description of how they work or a discussion of typical circuits and their characteristics?

Was your alma mater typical of Canadian or American universities? I only refer to my local schools. Are yours more representative of the whole? I'm not saying mine are because I too have made an assumption with only a small representative local sample. You can't plot a curve with only one point, I admit.

When you say "plenty of us" that's a null statement to me. What would you say is the percentage of engineers who share your knowledge and experience?

I truly hope you're right on this one! A world that still educates engineers in vacuum tubes is the better for it, IMHO!:smile:




iaresee said:


> Race is a factor because kirk1701 didn't mention anything other than "they were made in Malaysia". If had some specific criticism about the parts in the kit or their manufacturing process it wouldn't have been a problem.


Here's what kirk1701 said:

"yeesh, ceriatone has great prices, but they're made in Malaysia. I'd be careful"

I don't see any reference to race here. Or even an implication, for that matter. He could have been thinking about all the Ebay stories of Malaysian ripoffs. He may have had a bad experience with a Malaysian vendor of guitar stuff. You don't seem to be giving him any benefit of the doubt and have simply decided that a caution against a Malaysian source must be racism.



iaresee said:


> Really Bill?
> 
> Damn. They promised me they'd teach me _everything_ in school. You've just shattered my world. Do you really think every person that touched a Black Face-era Fender Reverb was an engineering expert in their field? That once Jim Marshall designed an amplifier he only had an elite team of 20 people with 30 years of experience each build them for the world? Doesn't work like that Bill. Yes, you need someone at the top with knowledge and experience designing your product. But when it comes to manufacturing you need people who care about their jobs and what they're building. They need basic skills, but not a lifetime of experience. This particularly true if the product is designed well.


This only helps confirm my point. Such countries as China and Malaysia would not have "a lifetime of experience" with such products. I also had mentioned that I seriously doubted if the main communications from western firms that exported such production came from engineering. It seems to have come from accounting suits, judging by the results. The input from "someone at the top with knowledge and experience" doesn't seem to obvious, at least to me. 



iaresee said:


> So are cars and that technology has been mastered over and over by engineers in other nations. That argument doesn't fly here. You don't have to pass through all stages of evolution of a technology in real time in order to master it, build with it and improve it. If that was the case Moore's Law wouldn't hold. Every new engineer would be catching up to Ohm and Volta.


I quite agree! I just disagree that eastern production has been given the benefit of western acquired knowledge, in many such cases. This should be a factor in any sensible consumer's choices.

It just seems to me that the entire thrust of exporting production has been price driven, period. This might be ok if you're making Barbie dolls or even cars but musical equipment has a lot of extra "taste" or "artistic" factors that come from sound engineering sources but are usually ignored by the "suits". I cite the Fender SilverFace AB568 circuit as an example of what happens when engineering is either ignored or working with the wrong parameters.



iaresee said:


> Was that shot aimed at me?


Please, I don't like guns!:smile:



iaresee said:


> No one said anything about price. kirk1701 made a vague comment about the amps and Malaysia and we asked him to clarify. Otherwise we're talking about the possibility that a Dumble-style amp could be available in kit form.


Again, a vague comment but I fail to see the racial inference. It's obvious that eventually eastern engineering is perfectly capable of adapting once they understand all the factors involved.

Still, a consumer would be wise to consider his sources. Not all countries have the same consumer protection laws and it is really hard to force a refund from countries so far away. Much easier to deal with a dispute locally, or at least within your own country.

As a sidebar, have you heard about the class action suit for misrepresentation against Behringer that's happening down South? Apparently they brought out a solid state amp that like many flouted having a 12AX7 in the preamp. You could see the tube through the front plastic panel. The problem was the tube was totally unconnected. They had an LED behind it to make it look like the heaters were lit!

This brand is not a domestic. Would it be racist to look at the innards of the amp yourself before buying?

:food-smiley-004:


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

Wild Bill said:


> As a sidebar, have you heard about the class action suit for misrepresentation against Behringer that's happening down South? Apparently they brought out a solid state amp that like many flouted having a 12AX7 in the preamp. You could see the tube through the front plastic panel. The problem was the tube was totally unconnected. They had an LED behind it to make it look like the heaters were lit!


Wow! That is Hilarious! I love that story! 
BTW, It would never be racist to take a peek in an amp before buying IMO. (As long as the amp gave consent and didn't feel pressured into it)

Regarding the comment about racism: I was not assuming the Malaysia comment was racist at all. Rather, we were assuming the opposite, and wanted to keep the comment from coming off that way. There's a small (but real) chance that some Malaysian guitar amp tech could read it and feel pretty hurt by it. Honestly, I was thinking specifically about Nik and how he might take it, because it was made in reference to his amps. I think Nik is an example of an amp tech who does care about quality and tone. I get the feeling that he is more about helping people get a good sounding amp than he is about making sales; just by how helpful he is before and after any sale he makes - (of course that makes a good salesperson as well; but I should mention that he helped me quite a bit on questions regarding speakers and tubes that he doesn't even sell)
Anyways, I'm not even disagreeing with anything anyone has said here in this thread. Different amp makers have different priorities. It could be helpful to point out what countries have amp makers where cost is most often the highest priority... but then there will always be exceptions to the rule too.
My personal respect goes to any amp-maker who makes tone and quality the highest priority, and then tries to get that tone and quality to people without ripping them off financially. I know that's what you guys (as amp techs) are about too and I can tell it by the things you guys both say.
I think we can drop the suggestion of any racism, but I would love to read some more sparring about which school is better for teaching about tubes. I think if you could mention your schools' varsity team names, that could help the rest of us cheer a bit better.


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## Guest (Oct 17, 2007)

bcmatt said:


> I think if you could mention your schools' varsity team names, that could help the rest of us cheer a bit better.


To support the theory that my alma matter is focused on education and not sports lets just say their football team just set the CIS record for the most number of consecutive losses: 48 straight. Funny.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

iaresee said:


> lets just say their football team just set the CIS record for the most number of consecutive losses: 48 straight. Funny.


Ok, for the lack of further information, can we call your team "_the 48s_"?

"Yay _48s_! Let's get another!"


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