# intoning question



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Hi guys, here is the situation. I was recently in a conversation with a guy I was recording. He was saying that his guitar is in tune on the open strings, and at the 12th fret, but it was sharp at the 5th fret (good player, not squeezing them sharp). I suggested to him that the nut was not located properly, and may need a compensated nut, to which he disagreed. Am I right? Also, in this situation (if I am right), should the nut go closer to the bridge, or farther? BTW, the guitar is a decent, name brand, mass produced one, so I believe the frets are in the right spots relative to each other.


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Just a thought.. but is the action too high? Meaning that when you push the strings to the 12th fret and it is "intune" the strings travel further than they should? There are scale calculators on line if you want to check the fret placement. You may me correct on the compensated nut.


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Oh thanks, I forgot to mention that the action is not very high, so I had already eliminated that as a posibility. Sorry for the oversite.


----------



## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

A compensated nut only works with open strings. Once you start fretting notes the nut doesn't matter. How is he tuning his guitar? If he's tuning to a chord it's going to be out. There is a proper way to tune an equally tempered instrument and it's documented here: Stagepass.com - How To Tune The Guitar to perfection .

The tuning method and the actual intonation of the guitar would be my first choices to check. Has it just happened recently? Could be a bad string or strings. It's fairly rare but it does happen. Dents in the frets maybe? That could cause one string to travel farther than the other.

The other question that comes to mind is: Sharp as compared to what? A strobe tuner? Another fretted note? In a chord voicing?


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

cool link thanks! using a digital tuner. open string in tune, fretted 12th in tune, 12th harmonic in tune, fretted at 5th sharp...not sure how long it has been going on, or how old his strings are, I wouldn't think they are that old, he has lots of them at his disposal.

My thoughts are, if the nut for any particular string is moved a bit, the saddle at the bridge would move a corresponding amount to properly intone the guitar (at the 12th fret), thus it would effect the distance between the bridge and the fretted (in this case 5th fret) note, and it's pitch. Does that make sense?

Comeing up......how do you figure out which direction, and how far to go if you want to adjust the nut yourself questions. (sometimes I just get overly curious)


----------



## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

Without checking my guitars for it I suspect that might just be part of the equal tempered scale of the guitar. Is it just that one fret or is it others? If it's just that one string I would say the string is bad.

Where to move the nut would be a question for a serious luthier. However, if you move the nut you risk throwing off the whole scale length ( if it was properly placed to begin with) as the placement of the frets is dependent on the position of the nut.


----------



## YJMUJRSRV (Jul 17, 2007)

gone fishing


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I am going to look at the guitar more closely next time I am there. Could it be possible that in the recording environment a bit of paranoia creeps in because you want what goes on tape to be perfect and you start hearing things? Just a thought to muddy the waters a bit more.


----------



## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

Is he checking the tuning at the 5th fret by using harmonics or is he actually fretting the note? If it is in tune using harmonics, but sharp when he frets it, then his neck probably has too much relief (it is bowed too much towards his body). Too much relief, in essence, makes the distance of the string from the fretboard larger in the middle of the board than it is at either end. When he depresses the string at the 5th fret, it has to travel farther to come in contact with the fretboard, pulling it slightly out of tune. He can check the relief on the neck by placing the edge of a metal ruler along the frets from the nut to the 12th fret or higher. If there is space between the edge of the ruler and the 5th fret and none at the 1st or 12th, then he may have too much bow in the neck. A truss rod adjustment may be in order. Hope this helps.


----------

