# We are getting hosed on pricing



## sartana (Jun 9, 2007)

I am a manufacturers rep for large sporting goods companies, we sell direct to stores on some products and other products go thru distributors.
Almost without exception the retail price in the U.S. is almost identical to the Cdn retail pricing, in some cases the Cdn price is cheaper!
Now when it comes to guitars I am finding out that we are really getting hosed.
I am in the market for a Squier Jagmaster and almost all prices in the U.S. are at $249 to $269.
I called three different local dealers, two of them are large chain music stores, first not one store or chain store had any in their system second I was quoted a price of $399 Cdn!!!!!!!!

It just chokes me, I would like to support Cdn retail stores but something is really wrong here either the retailer is sticking it to me or the supplier is sticking it to them


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## god9 (Jan 6, 2007)

Yeah and they're probably going to charge you tax on top of that $399, right?

Unfortunately all the stores around here seem to raise their prices so they just seem to beat what it would cost to import from the US. Its really stupid in my opinion to factor in the cost of duties and taxes and such for guitars that they sell in store, but keep in mind those stores have to pay those same taxes before they can stock it on the shelves.

Stupid, but blame the government.


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## sartana (Jun 9, 2007)

Sorry for the rant I live in the suburbs and the stores out here really don't seem to care about my business.
I need to apologize and give Long and McQuade kudos, I will have to travel a bit to the store but they had stock and it was $299!!
I was a little frustrated I guess and should have tried closer to town before ranting like that, I was choked that the local Tom Lee who I have been dealing with were jamming me with a hugely high price on that guitar.
I am going to mention this to the head office as I have spent a fair amount there in the past few months and to jack the price 100 bucks over their main competitor was ridiculus.
I just wish there was a Long and McQuade where I lived!!


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Yep...I was thinking of buying a Schecter C1, but it's ridiculously overpriced here. They can be had for 499$ at musiciansfriend, the cheapest I found in Canada was like 759 or something.


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## sartana (Jun 9, 2007)

*Frustrating*

That stinks noobcake!
I guess I am a little choked too because I was also dealing withtwo US online dealers www.music123.com and its sister company www.wwbw.com and was treated so well with service, pricing and frieght but they were recently bought out and the frieght on a guitar to be shipped went from 20 bucks to 60 overnite!!
Do check on the wwbw site though as they have been clearing out guitars as it appears they will no longer be carrying guitars there and stick to thier name which is WoodWind BrassWind and music 123 from what I hear will be using them to clear out their old stock as they have changed their whole website to reflect what their new parent company Guitar Centre's Muscians Friend site lists and their pricing.
Guitar center was also recently bought out by a private company so they now have 4 websites and you know some of them will be gone.
There are some good deals still even with the higher frieght and brokerage, just make sure you do your homework price wise concerning exchange brokerage,frieght and taxes.
And I am sure there will be more screaming deals I hope for the consumer.:food-smiley-004:


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## Falcatarius (Apr 23, 2006)

I feel that in musical equipment in general is not something I go to retail for.

Buying musical equipment second-hand is not something were it's easy to get screwed over in terms of quality if you have half a brain. In addition, most musical equipment depreciates very well and you can often re-sell your item for as much money as you bought it for.

Another nice thing is that we all play guitar, which is one of the most prevalent instruments out there. So there's almost always a second-hand market for guitar stuff near you. (check out craiglist) Finally, if you start to buy and sell musical equipment second hand, you will be facilitating that market and ultimately help out everyone.

I havn't gone to a music store for anything except strings in over 2 years and I couldn't be happier with my equipment and the price that I bought them for. Just something to consider...

Cheers
-Falcatarius


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

I tried shopping around for Dimarzio Area 58/61 pups for my strat and to buy all three in canada would have cost me $345.00 plus tax! 

I ended up calling a shop in the states and I got all three shipped to my door for $190 CDN. Service and shipping time was fantastic as well.

I always try to shop Canadian but...for a 50% saving that included great service and fast shipping, sorry....


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

The thing is they likely order the stock 6-12 months ago when the Cdn $ was lower and what to recoup their $$$/


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

you guys are aware that most guitar STORES in the US dont have prices as low as MF/AMS right? if you're lucky, somewhere may price-match MF...but that's not likely.


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## sartana (Jun 9, 2007)

*Oh Yes*



Budda said:


> you guys are aware that most guitar STORES in the US dont have prices as low as MF/AMS right? if you're lucky, somewhere may price-match MF...but that's not likely.


Oh yes I am fully aware that those big box stores sell at lower margains, I just want to get a fair deal thats close not the pricing my local Tom Lee quoted me!
Long and McQuade's everyday price on that Jagcaster was better than I expected,I will always pay more for better service too!
In fact after I posted last I called the Surrey store and found they had both in stock and when I asked his name thinking he was on commision like Tom Lee's guys, he said his name then told me anyone there would be more than happy to help me as they were on salary......so its off to Surrey and if all goes well they will get my business.:rockon:


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

I personally like the L&M in Langley better than the Surrey one, the one in Langley seems to have a better guitar selection and the one in Surrey has a better drum selection.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

sartana said:


> Oh yes I am fully aware that those big box stores sell at lower margains, I just want to get a fair deal thats close not the pricing my local Tom Lee quoted me!
> Long and McQuade's everyday price on that Jagcaster was better than I expected,I will always pay more for better service too!
> In fact after I posted last I called the Surrey store and found they had both in stock and when I asked his name thinking he was on commision like Tom Lee's guys, he said his name then told me anyone there would be more than happy to help me as they were on salary......so its off to Surrey and if all goes well they will get my business.:rockon:


I think if you could get someone working in a Canadian store to tell you the score you'd find that it's their supplier screwing them!

There are a number of different products in Canada that are sold through very old fashioned channels. From what I've heard I'm convinced that music equipment is one of them.

Years ago Canada was looked upon as a very small market. Compared to most American states that was understandable. Our population in those days was maybe half of what it is today. So they would either set up a branch office or hook up with a Canadian sales rep outfit. Either way, they would carry inventory here in Canada and do all the sales promotion. They marked up the product over a cost that was actually not much better than American resale and sent it out to Canadian distributors.

I saw this selling products like ITT Cannon connectors, Molex, Mallory caps and Bussman fuses, among others. The American factory source got the advantage of shipping fewer but bigger orders to their Canadian master disti and the Canadian stores could order from them in small quantities.

By the time the 70's got rolling the Canadian market volumes had gotten much larger but the old purchasing channels were still there. I'd lose large orders to either ITT Cannon's Canadian office (on volume orders they were not just my supplier but my competitor!) or to an American disti who could resale at my distributor cost!

The situation grew so ridiculous that by the mid to late 80's it fell apart and Canadian electronic distis would just order from the American factory network just as if they were an American reseller.

Wabasso sheets and linens was another product. Stores in Windsor watched as their customers went over the border into Detroit to buy resale at a Windsor store's cost.

Car tires were the same. Free trade came in and eliminated many duties but kept all the paper work! That's where the brokerage fees on ordering guitar parts and speakers from the States comes in.

If any Canadian reseller tried to go around his Canadian master distributor source the factory would refuse his order and often the Canadian master office would pull the reseller's franchise so that he had no source for that brand at all.

Some master reps claim they earn their (usually BIG!) extra markup by adding value to make the product conform to Canadian laws. This most often means a blanket comes over the border and the Canadian rep would stuff a sheet of paper in the package written in both English and French. Big deal!

Textiles has the worst reputation for this. There are a ton of sales rep houses mostly in Montreal that do nothing but relay orders to the American factory. They don't even touch the product, let alone hold inventory. Their take can be 30% or more, in some cases.

As I've posted before, if you're a little store in Smith Falls, Ontario you've got very little clout to change such a situation. You'd like to sell at a competitive price but you'd have to go below your own cost. Obviously, that can't work.

I think over the next 5-10 years things with music stuff will have to change. In the electronics market US factories found that they were losing sales representation in Canada. Distributors would stop carrying a line if they couldn't make money with it. If the factory wanted local people pushing their products into a Northern Telecom plant or Celestica they had to make it a level playing field. An American disti would cheerfully take a big Canadian order but they wouldn't send out salespeople to work with the customer's design engineers every day. It would be just too far to drive!

The Internet is blowing away the idea of geographical sales territories. Guitar and music parts had better follow soon or we won't have any local stores left, except for bigger chains like L & M. 

L & M is a great company but do we really want them to have a monopoly in Canada?

:food-smiley-004:


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## sartana (Jun 9, 2007)

*Thanks*



noobcake said:


> I personally like the L&M in Langley better than the Surrey one, the one in Langley seems to have a better guitar selection and the one in Surrey has a better drum selection.


Well seeing as the Surrey store has the guitar I want, I may as well head to the Langley store on the way....thanks for the tip:bow:


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

Have you guys checked the L&M out in Pitt Meadows or wherever town that one is on Ottawa street? Ask for Chuck, he's a super cool dude 



> I think if you could get someone working in a Canadian store to tell you the score you'd find that it's their supplier screwing them!


Very true! There was even a Global news investigation into distributors pocketing the difference in things like books, magazines and greeting cards. Of course, NO ONE would talk to them (suprise). They admitted there was tonnes of others too in different industries, they also weren'ty talking. The regulators (that exist) don't care.

As a small businessman, my motto for pricing is "Compete or Die". If a one man shop like me CAN compete, these other whiners saying "Ohhhhhh, big boxes are running us out..." have no pity from me. If *I* can do it, *they* can do it!


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## bassman blue (Feb 24, 2006)

i traded an ampeg bass head in at the surrey store a while back. they gave me $450 for it. (that was what i got it for used in the us). when i went back in a week later they had my old head listed at $1099 and the saleman told me it was new..... :sport-smiley-002:


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Budda said:


> you guys are aware that most guitar STORES in the US dont have prices as low as MF/AMS right?


Yes, but $617.55 Cdn for a Gibson Faded SG Special at MF and $925.00 at L&M?? ($909 at 12th Fret)


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

But oddly, Fenders seem to be very well priced here. a highway one strat/tele is $750 at MF and they go for $799 at my local Tom Lee.


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

Remember that the suppliers are giving big discounts to the stores that order from them in bulk. Places like L+M are getting the guitar for 20-40% less than the mom and pop shops can. It makes it pretty much impossible for smaller stores to compete on price.


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## sartana (Jun 9, 2007)

*Pricing*



kat_ said:


> Remember that the suppliers are giving big discounts to the stores that order from them in bulk. Places like L+M are getting the guitar for 20-40% less than the mom and pop shops can. It makes it pretty much impossible for smaller stores to compete on price.


I agree but it sure doesn't explain the other examples as noted below other than imho Gibson is way overpriced and Fender gives the musician much better pricing.
Is Gibson in Canada even more greedy than they are in the states?
One of my local mom and pop stores has been smart enough to bring a good alternative to Gibson and Fender so they can compete,they carry Hagstrom and G&L to cover the two styles.:smile:
There is a growing backlash against Gibsons pricing and quality control esp when it comes to their Les Pauls.

Yes, but $617.55 Cdn for a Gibson Faded SG Special at MF and $925.00 at L&M?? ($909 at 12th Fret)(Robert1950 quote)


But oddly, Fenders seem to be very well priced here. a highway one strat/tele is $750 at MF and they go for $799 at my local Tom Lee.(noobcakes quote)


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## adamthemute (Jun 18, 2007)

I love Long and McQuade, but I don't remember that last time I bought anything there besides strings and picks. I'd love to support Canadian companies, but with our dollar almost being equal to the US dollar, and not much of a change of prices to equal that, you're way better off going wih Ebay or something.

I was looking at getting a Line 6 DL4. Long & McQuade sells it for $350. There's a new one on Ebay right now for $230...


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!"*



sartana said:


> I agree but it sure doesn't explain the other examples as noted below other than imho Gibson is way overpriced and Fender gives the musician much better pricing.
> Is Gibson in Canada even more greedy than they are in the states?
> One of my local mom and pop stores has been smart enough to bring a good alternative to Gibson and Fender so they can compete,they carry Hagstrom and G&L to cover the two styles.:smile:
> There is a growing backlash against Gibsons pricing and quality control esp when it comes to their Les Pauls.
> ...



You might be interested to know that the Gibson master distributor for Canada is none other than Yorkville sound, the manufacturing half of L & M!

They buy from Gibson USA and stock a warehouse larger than a high school gym at their factory in Pickering. All Canadian resellers have to buy Gibson from Yorkville. They would be in violation of their franchise agreement if they tried to order from the States and besides, the factory wouldn't take their order anyway.

There are ways to get around these channels. One way is to strike a deal with an American reseller to supply you product at his cost and bring it across the border yourself. Usually you have some product you can trade maybe from China that would be a deal for him. Or there may be some common ownership. Whatever, the problem is how do you keep it secret? If your pricing is way below anything possible for any other Canadian reseller they would certainly complain to their Canadian master disti. He would know the product is not coming through him and therefore they have an outlaw on their hands. That's when the lawyers start working and usually the master disti has more lawyer money than the outlaw.

Anyhow, just FYI about where Canadian resellers get their Gibsons...

:food-smiley-004:


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

Interesting indeed!

So much for a "free market".


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## sartana (Jun 9, 2007)

*Gibson is ignorant*

Thanks for the post Wild Bill.
In my industry, fishing and hunting products we would never allow a Retailer to be the distributor of a major product line, that said there are some small companies that do this but not one of the largest if not the largest in its field.
So L & M not only have a competitive edge over all their rivals they are also majorly sticking it to the end user on pricing by pocketing major markups from the distributor level to a grossly high retail price, that is obscene of Gibson to allow this and makes me determined to never buy a Gibson product in Canada and maybe not out of the U.S. either. It is a very unethical business dealing to do this to other retailers and the public.
Question does L and M also own Traynor, as I heard they are made at the Yorkville plant?


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

sartana said:


> Thanks for the post Wild Bill.
> In my industry, fishing and hunting products we would never allow a Retailer to be the distributor of a major product line, that said there are some small companies that do this but not one of the largest if not the largest in its field.
> So L & M not only have a competitive edge over all their rivals they are also majorly sticking it to the end user on pricing by pocketing major markups from the distributor level to a grossly high retail price, that is obscene of Gibson to allow this and makes me determined to never buy a Gibson product in Canada and maybe not out of the U.S. either.
> Question does L and M also own Traynor, as I heard they are made at the Yorkville plant?


Yes indeed, Traynor is part of the same company. If you poke around the Traynor.com site you'll find a FAQ written by Mike Holman, the service manager that chronicles the entire history of Jack Long starting out with a music store, McQuade entering the picture, a young high school kid named Pete asking for a job doing repairs and cleaning up a month's worth of backlog in a weekend to prove his worth!, the Traynor manufacturing company and then Yorkville Sound handling the bass/solid state amps and PA gear and the tie-in to L & M.

To be fair L & M at least adds some value to being the master disti. They carry a huge inventory so you don't have to wait for your guitar to clear the border and also pay big customs duties. They have salesmen that regularly visit stores and help them stay educated on the line and hopefully increase their sales.

Lots of reps just stock nothing and simply relay orders to the US factory for their markup, like the sheets and linens situation I had mentioned.

Often there's not so much a deliberate policy that keeps prices up in Canada as simply no one pays much attention within the company to changes unless they HURT profits! By this I mean that if the dollar goes down it costs more to source from the States and you better get new pricing to your Canadian resellers fast or you'll lose some money. If the dollar goes up your cost improves. No one feels any time pressure to get out price lists with reduced prices. You'll make MORE money while you're getting around to it! We've seen a huge rise in the value of the Canadian dollar over the past year. You'd be making up and printing a new price list every month!

Another kicker is that a master disti who holds big inventories can get hurt in these situations for providing that value. If you have a huge inventory of blankets (or guitars!) and the dollar goes up you've just lost a bundle on your inventory value. If you were to immediately drop your reseller pricing to reflect the new dollar value you would have bought at the old high price and sold at the new low price. Tell me any business that can take that kind of a hit without hurting!

Then we have gas companies that put the pump price up the minute the crude cost rises but take 3 or 4 months to lower it when crude drops...

That's another thread for sure!
:food-smiley-004:


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> To be fair L & M at least adds some value to being the master disti. They carry a huge inventory so you don't have to wait for your guitar to clear the border and also pay big customs duties. They have salesmen that regularly visit stores and help them stay educated on the line and hopefully increase their sales.


See if that were true it would be great. I have ordered 3 items from Long and Mcquade, 2 of them being guitars. An MIA Fender 52' Ri took FOUR MONTHS to arrive. Then they were mad at me when I didn't want it anymore! I told them, 'you guys take 4 months to order in a guitar, never call me once that whole time, then expect me to still want it?', I ordered a CIJ 52' RI from the States because it seemed the other guitar was never going to come.

An Ibanez Artcore I ordered previous to that took almost 2 months to arrive. And almost everyone I know who has ordered an item from Long and Mcquade has had similar experiences. Meanwhile I could go online, even to a smaller stores site, and have the same item delivered to my door within a week. And even with customs fees, which USPS does not charge anyway, 90% of the time I can still get the items cheaper somewhere else. A little more leg work on my part is a heck of a lot better then a 4 MONTH wait.

I think my local Long and Mcquade is a good store. I like a lot of the workers, and they have a great tech. But their business practices suck. And their ability to order product REALLY sucks.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

torndownunit said:


> See if that were true it would be great. I have ordered 3 items from Long and Mcquade, 2 of them being guitars. An MIA Fender 52' Ri took FOUR MONTHS to arrive. Then they were mad at me when I didn't want it anymore! I told them, 'you guys take 4 months to order in a guitar, never call me once that whole time, then expect me to still want it?', I ordered a CIJ 52' RI from the States because it seemed the other guitar was never going to come.
> 
> An Ibanez Artcore I ordered previous to that took almost 2 months to arrive. And almost everyone I know who has ordered an item from Long and Mcquade has had similar experiences. Meanwhile I could go online, even to a smaller stores site, and have the same item delivered to my door within a week. And even with customs fees, which USPS does not charge anyway, 90% of the time I can still get the items cheaper somewhere else. A little more leg work on my part is a heck of a lot better then a 4 MONTH wait.
> 
> I think my local Long and Mcquade is a good store. I like a lot of the workers, and they have a great tech. But their business practices suck. And their ability to order product REALLY sucks.


Well, I learned long ago never to argue with experience. Although I should point out that Yorkville stocks Gibson for Canada but to my knowledge not Fender or Ibanez. It's the Yorkville branch that looks after Gibson. Long & McQuade operates as its own business, ordering their Gibson (and Traynor) from Yorkville. Yorkville can be doing a great job as the stocking master rep but if L & M is loopy in quickly processing orders it just won't matter, from the customer's standpoint.

As for competition from the online stores, I'm surprised that so many are willing to fill Canadian orders. They are supposed to turn down orders outside of their market area. Of course, they all want the money and the factory is not going to bust its ass trying to police things. Why should they? They get the sale no matter where its sold!

The big loser is the local small-town Canadian store. They just get a higher cost and can't compete. Their only edge is local inventory and sales support/service.

That being said, it's sad that so many don't seem to understand that and do a lacklustre job! This only encourages more online shopping and the good stores will disappear with the bad ones.

If something is not worked out I can see the day when the local music store will be a forgotten memory. We will all order off the net or else drive to the closest big city to visit L & M.
:rockon2:


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

*but sometimes....*

A while back I convinced a local store to try selling THD amps and agreed to buy one when they got them, based on Canadian advertised prices from dealers in Ont.; surprise surprise, when they got the amps in the list price was way above the then advertised Canadian prices-they would have been selling to me below their cost if they price matched! They did some inquiries
and found that the earlier Canadian dealers had gotten in before the Canadian distributor, and had stocked up at US wholesale prices, (the same price paid by the Canadian distributor!) and were selling at dealer cost. Once the distributor entered the picture, all prices moved up one notch. The frightening thing is that many "distributors" don't handle or even see the gear they distribute; they just take orders from Canadian dealers, place them with US or Offshore manufacturers, collect the dealers money, pay the manufacturers and pocket the difference! The goods are shipped directly from the manufacturer to the dealer.

On a positive note, the Reverend guitars advertised at Capsule music in Toronto are priced the same in CDN dollars as Reverends on line price in US dollars, and that includes shipping and a case, which Reverend charges extra for. Now who wants to be the Canadian distributor for Reverend? the line forms over there.


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## sartana (Jun 9, 2007)

*Plot thickens*

One thing that just came to mind is the big music retailers like www.musciansfriend.com will sell Gibson or Epiphone to Canadians but not Fender products or Squier............interesting......maybe not everything is rosy between L&M and Gibson hence the allowance of the giant US music retailers ability to sell their products to Canadians....

Oh and thanks for the tip Washburned, I didn't know that there was a Canadian dealer for Reverend guitars especially at fair prices......I will be checking that out!


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

sartana said:


> One thing that just came to mind is the big music retailers like www.musciansfriend.com will sell Gibson or Epiphone to Canadians but not Fender products or Squier............interesting......maybe not everything is rosy between L&M and Gibson hence the allowance of the giant US music retailers ability to sell their products to Canadians....



Oh, there's likely no problem between Gibson and Yorkville (L & M is a different legal business even if they own Yorkville. Yorkville handles Gibson for every franchised reseller store in Canada. Technically L & M is just another store to them but of course "family" gets special attention!

It's probably just money! Yorkville gets all the Canadian sales. Canada is not quite as big a market as the state of California all by itself! Musicians Friend almost certainly makes Yorkville and Canada look like VERY small potatoes!

Do you really think Gibson would then give MF a hard time for filling a few Canadian orders at the expense of Yorkville and Canadian music stores?

If Yorkville did complain I'm sure Gibson would say "Oh yes! We'll get right on it!" Then they'd go for a long lunch and forget about it. 

We're just too small to matter.


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## I_cant_play (Jun 26, 2006)

Most gear I've found prices for online on various sites and even harmony central was much more expensive in Canada than in the US. Also, for Europe and Australia the prices were even higher than in Canada. I used to just take the price in US dollars multiply by the conversion rate and assumed it would be just a little higher than that here....not even close.


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## Eric Pykala (Jul 1, 2006)

Although I agree with a lot of the comments here, there are a few that are particularily pertinent. I used to (among other jobs in my forty years in the Biz) rep for PRS, Soldano, Groove Tubes, and Hipshot. One of the first things we discovered was the awesome truth about the demographics of distributing musical gear to a country that has less guitarists than the state of California (thanks Wild Bill; your last name Corrigan by any chance?). Lots of square miles, not many players. This is the primary reason so many US or other manufacturers use the "distributor" arrangement. I'm guilty of Gibson bashing myself on the QC front, but let's think for a moment about the situation Yorkville is in. Let's try to, for just a moment, forget Gibson's questionable biz policies in the states and look at just the Canadian picture. Yorkville, in exchange for the rights to sell Gibson in Canada, is required to BUY and MAINTAIN a HUGE inventory of Gibson. No, they can't inventory every model made in the states, but they really do try to carry the stuff most of us want (what we "want" of course being only an educated guess). This costs mondo $$$$s to do, and means they have to mark it up to pay for the inventory, and the sales/distribution staff to sell it. In a lot of cases it means my wholesale dealer cost is about what the US street price is. This is basic economics, whether I like it or not. (I personally like one small part of the arrangement, as Yorkville is acting as a buffer zone between us and the lunacy of Henry J. and the boys in Nashville). Aside from the extra cost involved, there are two things in this arrangement I don't like at all. Firstly, Gibsons in Canada carry a one-year warranty. I bought a '59 Reissue Les Paul and a chambered '54 RI Goldtop in the last few years, paid big money for both, and got one-year warranties. My PRS Santana SE at $800 came with a lifetime warranty. This is a Korean guitar, but gets the same backing as a US. Secondly, if I want to order a Gibson that Yorkville does not stock, I (the dealer) have to sign a form saying I will keep the special-ordered guitar even if it plays like poo, or sounds sub-par, or I don't like the neck, or ???. They WILL take it back for "defects in workmanship or material", but given Gibsons QC issues, what are they calling a defect? I spent almost eight hours making my R9 play like the top-of-the-line Holy Grail LP it is supposed to be (fixing bent intonation screws, removing nickel plating with a Dremel so the saddles would sit down in the bridge, etc. ad nauseum). I would love to see and play a Johnny A., but I'd be committed to buy it if they brought me one in. I'd also like a Historic Firebird VII in white, but if I ordered one and it came in with the frets mashed into the rosewood board, they'd probably say something like "that's normal for Gibson". If that's normal, I don't want it, but they've got a piece of paper saying it's mine. I would NEVER buy a Gibson I hadn't inspected and played thoroughly before purchase. I've bought three Musicmans and two PRSi unseen/unplayed, but they are the only two "larger" companies I would ever even consider doing this with. I fix and build guitars for a living, aside from various bands and other musical endeavours, so I am admittedly extremely picky. However, just the two Lesters I mentioned had a combined street price of almost TEN GRAND. For that dough I bought the "picky". Rant over...
The market has changed so much with the Internet. If you have money to spend, there is someone to take it whether it's in "accordance with distributorship agreements" or not. Yes, the pricing disparity exists. No, there is not much that can be done about it. I have customers daily coming in with prized purchases from the Net, touting what a great "deal" they got. This is usually the prelude to me writing-up a work order to fix all the things wrong with their new "deal". Case in point: Customer shows-up with a used Fender acoustic 12-string. Action is 12/64's, so it's going to need re-engineering to play. I asked how much he paid. "Only $200 US!" I pointed out that the same model sold new in Canada with a warranty and playable action for $199. I then asked about the 4" X 4" hole hacked in the side."I didn't see that in the pictures". I suggested he send it back. "Too much of a pain, with all the customs paperwork, blah,blah". If you are going to be a smart shopper, be smart! I find the Net to be the world's largest dumping ground for substandard or simply non-functioning gear, and refuse to buy anything off it. There are certainly great deals to be had, IF you protect your own ass at every turn. About half the time a customer brings me in pickups they bought off the Net, one or more of them is non-functioning. "Too much of a pain to send them back". Open lid and flush. What a deal. The situation only gets worse from there.
It's easy to complain, but much harder to find a solution. I wish I had a solution.-Eric


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Man, great post. And a solid cautionary tale for those who are inclined to shop via the internet. I can't bring myself to do it. I hunt for cool stuff via Craigslist but I need to hold the things in my own hands and inspect it carefully before I hand over the cash.

As for Gibson and comntinuing QC issues, the number of times I've heard anecdotally about this just really puts a damper on my enthusiasm for a brand new Les Paul or SG Standard... never mind the crazy prices. Anyway, that's a whole other issue.

I have zero problems buying Asian-made guitars that are copying the classics but doing them up better and cheaper. I just favour a hands-on approach - whether I'm getting something brand new or old and neglected. Your post underscores why I prefer to keep it that way. Sure, there are many examples of people who shell out good dough and get a crazy-great guitar a few days or weeks later, but it's just not worth the risk and anxiety to me personally.


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Yep..buying a guitar is a very personal thing if you ask me, the "try before you buy" mentality is most relevant in musical instruments in my opinion. Because unfortunately (or fortunately I dunno) not all guitars are created equal.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*Thanks Eric!*

Eric brought up a great point that I had forgotten - warranty!

If you jump over Canadian distribution channels and buy online from the States, don't bother walking into your local store for any warranty work. As far as they're concerned, you don't have a warranty!

Only fair, since they never got a dime of the purchase price and won't get a dime from Yorkville to do warranty work on an American bought Gibson.

To be fair to both sides of the argument, I've always known Yorkville to have the greatest warranty attitude anywhere, bar none! Guys have brought amps years out of warranty to the back door in Pickering and the service guys have helped them out no charge. I'd be quite surprised if they'd get real dodgy about warranty work for a Gibson guitar that came from their warehouse.

So if you buy over the border and you have a problem be prepared to ship it back for any glitches. You'll also pay more shipping and fees there and back. Worse yet, Canada Customs has always been real dumb and can't tell the difference between a warranty repair and a new sale so they charge you all over again! If you bitch long enough they will eventually get things straight and refund your money. Of course, you had to pay up front to get your repaired item and send in the paperwork for the refund. You have to trust them to eventually issue a rebate. All by snail mail, of course.

It's just another example of how if all you care about is the cheapest price then that's all you get...

:food-smiley-004:


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Well, I learned long ago never to argue with experience. Although I should point out that Yorkville stocks Gibson for Canada but to my knowledge not Fender or Ibanez. It's the Yorkville branch that looks after Gibson. Long & McQuade operates as its own business, ordering their Gibson (and Traynor) from Yorkville. Yorkville can be doing a great job as the stocking master rep but if L & M is loopy in quickly processing orders it just won't matter, from the customer's standpoint.
> 
> As for competition from the online stores, I'm surprised that so many are willing to fill Canadian orders. They are supposed to turn down orders outside of their market area. Of course, they all want the money and the factory is not going to bust its ass trying to police things. Why should they? They get the sale no matter where its sold!
> 
> ...


Bill just 2 points. My main issue with Long and Mcquade is that they don't tell you an item could take 3-4 months to get there. They told me 2-3 weeks! Then they get mad that they end up with a pricey order and no one buying it. But what do they expect when they give you no details or updates? I go elsewhere. As mentioned though, the worst part of this is I know people who have had waits even longer then mine. So long that they forgot they even ordered the items!

Also when I mentioned ordering from the States, I don't order from online stores. There are a few small shops I buy used gear from. I trust them, they have 30 day return policies, and will ship items USPS to me. They set up every guitar before they mail it out. They are great to deal with, and their prices are amazing. I would LOVE to find shops like this within Canada that are as organized and sell online.

I buy locally as well. I just bought an acoustic from Folkway in Guelph which is a fantastic store. They carry great used gear with competitive prices too. They haven't had anything used I have been interested in though which is why I haven't bought anything else from them.

I'd also buy new if there was something I felt I needed a warranty on. My amps are all vintage except for one hand built one that is under a lifetime warranty anyway. I prefer to buy used guitars.


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## sartana (Jun 9, 2007)

*Warranty*

We rep alot of companies that are based out of the U.S. and the companies we rep cover the warranty regardless of where the customer bought the product.:food-smiley-004:
To our companies the customer bought their product not a Canadian version so the master warranties are all applicable.
Our warranty centres get paid on all warranty repairs regardless where the product was purchased.:smile:
Interesting that the big Guitar manufacturers don't follow this policy and pay the Canadian store or warranty centre to fix any of their products because after all it is THEIR product.


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## Arc Angel (Mar 9, 2007)

Duties are only 6% and NAFTA produced guitars should be duty free (USA/Mexico/Canada) for trade within N.A.

So, only Korean, Chinese, Japanese, etc., guitars would get tagged.

That's also 6% on distributors cost ($400 retail, $200 wholesale, maybe $160 max distributors cost). So you are talking a whopping $10 in duties).

With the strong CDN dollar, there is no excuse for unrealistic CDN list prices on some brands/models.

Think it is bad with guitars (some prices are actually OK). Try higher end watches. Its BRUTAL! $2600 USD turns into $4400 CDN (current exchange is 2,743.261 CDN).


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Robert1950 said:


> Yes, but $617.55 Cdn for a Gibson Faded SG Special at MF and $925.00 at L&M?? ($909 at 12th Fret)


i'll assume (bad idea! haha) that you're right in the US->CAD price conversion of that SG.

is shipping really free on it though?


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Budda said:


> i'll assume (bad idea! haha) that you're right in the US->CAD price conversion of that SG.
> 
> is shipping really free on it though?


Conversion is right US price is 579.99. Even if shipping was $40 (MF rates aren't that high) and assuming it was UPS and the brokerage was $60 Your are still paying $200 less. The taxes would be around $40-45 less. You saving about $240 Cdn. 

However the Epiphone '56 Les Paul is $599 US at MF and was $569 Cdn the last time I looked at L&M. Go figure.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Arc Angel said:


> Duties are only 6% and NAFTA produced guitars should be duty free (USA/Mexico/Canada) for trade within N.A.


Is that how NAFTA works? I always thought that the deal mentions specific products rather than a blanket "anything produced within NA". Perhaps I'm wrong.



Arc Angel said:


> That's also 6% on distributors cost ($400 retail, $200 wholesale, maybe $160 max distributors cost). So you are talking a whopping $10 in duties).


I haven't worked in a music store in 35 years. We never got anywhere near the profit margin you've quoted! Is that what today's local store gets for a cost? Less than half of resale? 

Not trying to knock your argument. I really don't know but it sounds kinda high.



Arc Angel said:


> With the strong CDN dollar, there is no excuse for unrealistic CDN list prices on some brands/models.


Well, as I've written I would agree that sometimes someone takes advantage of us. Still, I think that there's a simpler answer for most of the problem, an answer that if you haven't been in a resale business might not occur to you.

We're just too small a country! We've got 35 million people spread out across the entire continent, mostly in a thin strip near the US border. For an American company to service our market they have a big logistics problem for mice nuts of potential profit, compared to what they have at home.

You and I see the price of one guitar as a major bite out of our income. Fender or Gibson would see selling one guitar as a spit in the ocean!

If you're always a buyer and never a seller you may not always have a perspective on the SELLER'S position. The old line that the customer is always right can put you right out of business if you don't understand the unspoken second part of the saying: "AS LONG AS YOU CAN STILL MAKE A PROFIT!"

Now, I'm not saying you should never take a bit of a loss to keep a customer. That's an investment. Over the years it's steady loyal customers that feed your kids. I'm saying that if a customer is simply wanting you to take a loss to make him happy about the price then the LAST thing you want is to have loyal customers like him! You want your COMPETITOR to keep selling under cost! :smile:

Back to the point in hand, although we might want a product sold locally for our convenience it's not gonna happen unless it's worth it TO THE SELLER! We might guess about how profitable a market we are but suppliers don't guess, they do research and find out! After all, if they guess wrong they can go bankrupt. If our guess is wrong we don't hurt, we just enjoyed good prices for a while, until the doors closed!

We could make an argument I suppose that it would make sense to scrap the old-fashioned distribution system of import products in Canada and just treat us as an extension of the US market. An Ontario store would order from Upper New York the same as a store in Buffalo. On the west coast they could order from California. The supply chains would just run a bit more north across the border. 

The problem with this plan is, what's in it for the other guys? The existing master distributors would be cut out. Why should they warehouse local inventory? How do they get paid to make it worthwhile?

How do the factories benefit? They make the same profit no matter what. The only benefit might be market share. If buying their product in Canada under a new system was easier with no price disadvantage then conceivably they'd sell more stuff. Big name music gear is in a different category. We buy it because of the name. The competition is lesser name brands. Fender can get more profit out the door of the factory simply because it's Fender. If someone wants a Fender they will pay, regardless.

That's why I predict the death of the local store. American factories will keep selling, just through different channels like online sales. They have no incentive to change the system. Domestic master distis are not going to support changes that would cut them out. Meanwhile customers are going to turn away from local stores to save money. 

Simple 'rithmetic says that this can't go on forever. When it falls down the factories will have to look at the situation and straighten out the pieces but until that day I don't see them getting ambitious. Canadian sales are just too small potatoes to them. You don't make a name for yourself at the boardroom table talking about the little numbers. If you are facing stiff competition problems from offshore competitors you'll be thinking and talking about protecting your big markets, not the scene in Wawa, Ontario.

We can wave the flag all we want but like the old saying: "Money talks and BS walks!"

Sheesh, it's getting harder and harder to buy a non foreign owned beer!

:food-smiley-004:


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

In respect to just the SG Faded. The cost of getting one from MF is in the upper range for a used one. If you are willing to buy a used one for just over $800 Cdn in almost mint condition - no warranty, it isn't really that much different. Cost with taxes in Canada from L&M is $1093 Cdn.


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## bischbd (Mar 14, 2006)

*Canadian Gibson Pricing*

Getting back to some earlier discussion on the thread regarding Canadian Gibson pricing, and for those who do like shopping on the web (despite its obvious drawbacks.......

I recommend checking out lamusic.ca. The pricing on many Gibson models seems to be right in line with the best U.S. store prices out there.

Check lamusic's price on the Gibson SG 61 reissue and a Les Paul Standard faded and I think you'll find the prices are less in CAD than Musician's Friend's prices in USD.

Just wanted to throw that out there.

Cheers!


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

Robert1950 said:


> Conversion is right US price is 579.99. Even if shipping was $40 (MF rates aren't that high) and assuming it was UPS and the brokerage was $60 Your are still paying $200 less. The taxes would be around $40-45 less. You saving about $240 Cdn.
> 
> However the Epiphone '56 Les Paul is $599 US at MF and was $569 Cdn the last time I looked at L&M. Go figure.


 
That's because the Epiphones are made overseas and likely have landed in Vancouver, and shipped into the states. Canada is a 'softer' landing for imports from China and Korea.


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## Renvas (May 20, 2007)

well... this is how u make money from ur business, you buy low and sell high..
thats why they let u bargain for the price and throw in some extra stuff because the price is already so high... they cant lose any profit from it,


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