# Herzog Build



## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

Hey all,

I'm starting a Herzog scratch build and am seeking some assistance regarding the 50K output volume pot that's placed between the OT and output jack. Please forgive my electronic naivete. I am inquiring about the tonal effect of installing a pot of a different value compared to the 50k that's in the schematic. I have several pots kicking around and would like to use what I have already instead of having to order one single pot (and pay for shipping).

Thanks very much!


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Hey, I'll gladly mail you a 50K pot at no charge if you keep this thread alive so we can follow the build. I'm very interested in building Herzog myself.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

A modest range of other pot values could be used, but bear in mind the other components between the output transformer and output jack are assuming a 50k pot and would likely need to be altered to suit other pot values.


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## Buzz (May 15, 2008)

I want a Herzog too!


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

I'm kind of starting from scratch in many respects so we'll see where this goes.  I'll try to post updates when I have them. I'm following the 70's H-zog schematic but may tweak things for versatility such as selectable cathode bypass cap values on a switch as well as adding negative feedback with a switch. If anyone has any suggestions, recommendations, etc, I'd be happy to hear them! I'm building this for a friend who is also assembling the head shell. Here's where I'm at now.


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

Lincoln said:


> Hey, I'll gladly mail you a 50K pot at no charge if you keep this thread alive so we can follow the build. I'm very interested in building Herzog myself.


Thanks for the offer! I'll send you a PM.


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

mhammer said:


> A modest range of other pot values could be used, but bear in mind the other components between the output transformer and output jack are assuming a 50k pot and would likely need to be altered to suit other pot values.


Thanks for the reply! I kinda figured I couldn't stray too far from that pot value. I have a 25k pot. Can it be used?


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

Subscribed! Awesome work bud. Very interesting.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

GreasyB in YYC said:


> Thanks for the offer! I'll send you a PM.


please do. I have a branded new, CTS 50K amp pot with your name on it. For me, well worth the price of admission to this build thread.


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

Let me know if you need any gut shots or anything, I have a Herzog.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

zdogma said:


> Let me know if you need any gut shots or anything, I have a Herzog.


That would be very helpful!


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

zdogma said:


> Let me know if you need any gut shots or anything, I have a Herzog.


That would be great. Thanks so much!


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)




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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

Has anyone installed a simple tone stack in a Herzog- or Champ-style circuit? I was considering a Princeton-style tone stack that could be bypassed with a switch.


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

Chassis is triangular for those who haven’t seen one up close


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

zdogma said:


> View attachment 331794
> View attachment 331796
> View attachment 331797
> View attachment 331798
> View attachment 331799


Thanks so much for the pics!  Is that a new unit? Looks like a newer build.


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

zdogma said:


> Chassis is triangular for those who haven’t seen one up close


Yeah, they taper up to the back. Was strange seeing the transformers and tubes on an angle when I saw that.


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

Yes, this is a newer one built by Pete Thiessen


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Do they have to be so big?


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

zdogma said:


> View attachment 331794
> View attachment 331796
> View attachment 331797
> View attachment 331798
> View attachment 331799


Thank you very much for taking the time to do those pictures. It really helps to see the layout and where the terminal strips are placed, where the wires run, etc.

I owned one in the early 70's, but I never looked inside it. (and even if I did, I wouldn't remember by now)


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

player99 said:


> Do they have to be so big?


The chassis I got for my build was 10”x6“x2”. It will be a tight fit to get everything inside and the tubes and transformers add another 3-4” inches in height. Thats as small as one could probably get it and the shell will likely be the same size as the Garnets.


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

player99 said:


> Do they have to be so big?


It’s not too big when you see it in person-17x8x8 approx and its super light-under 10 pounds I would guess.


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

One quick note-every herzog I’ve used (maybe 4 or 5 over the years, original and reissue) has a faint distorted sound when you flip it to clean bypass-not sure why...it varies a bit from amp to amp. Maybe you can figure out a way to correct it. I tend to put it in a loop if I need to switch it on and off. 

Its also quite a decent sounding amp when you run it straight to a cab.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Side note:
I was comparing transformer numbers in Garnet schematics, and noted that Gar used the same transformers in a Herzog as he used in all his single ended 6V6 powered amps. So any "champ" type transformers will work.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

zdogma said:


> One quick note-every herzog I’ve used (maybe 4 or 5 over the years, original and reissue) has a faint distorted sound when you flip it to clean bypass-not sure why...it varies a bit from amp to amp. Maybe you can figure out a way to correct it. I tend to put it in a loop if I need to switch it on and off.
> 
> Its also quite a decent sounding amp when you run it straight to a cab.


Some of the schematics have a mute relay on the input to one of the tubes. The posted schematic is doing something on the 6V6, cutting off power?


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

here's the older schematic, the original I would think


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

What does Herzog mean? I Googled it and got this: 

Herzog is a German hereditary title held by one who rules a territorial duchy, exercises feudal authority over an estate called a duchy, or possesses a right by law or tradition to be referred to by the ducal title. The word is usually translated by the English duke and the Latin dux.


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

player99 said:


> What does Herzog mean? I Googled it and got this:
> 
> Herzog is a German hereditary title held by one who rules a territorial duchy, exercises feudal authority over an estate called a duchy, or possesses a right by law or tradition to be referred to by the ducal title. The word is usually translated by the English duke and the Latin dux.


When Gar was developing the amp with Randy Bachman, they were pressed for a name and saw the word in a magazine. I think that's the origin.


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

Lincoln said:


> here's the older schematic, the original I would think
> View attachment 331905


That's the 60's version Herzog. Keep in mind, it's missing most of the power filtering section. There are a couple of interesting additions to this schematic compared to the 70's H-zog - there are a couple of small capacitors between the input and V1A and a high voltage cap between the 6v6 and OT. Low pass filtering? Does anyone have any info on why these are included in the 60's schematic and not the 70's version?


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

Hammerhands said:


> Some of the schematics have a mute relay on the input to one of the tubes. The posted schematic is doing something on the 6V6, cutting off power?


Is that part of the footswitch? I'm not electronically savvy to understand relays yet. The observed sound when toggling between active and bypass may be related to the switch wiring. As it's portrayed in that schematic, the circuit is just "hanging" when in bypass, whereas another version of switch wiring grounds the circuit when in bypass. In my build, I've wired that switch like this. Maybe it'll make a difference? Dunno


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

Lincoln said:


> here's the older schematic, the original I would think
> View attachment 331905


I think there are two versions of the Herzog. The 60's "Randy Bachman's" Herzog and the 70's (and reissue) "Gar Gillies" Herzog


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

which version does Gordie play?


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

vadsy said:


> which version does Gordie play?


I believe the 70's "Gar Gillies" Herzog. There's a 70's Herzog schematic floating around online with his signature on it.


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

A bit more progress. OT, rectifier, tube sockets and filament wiring installed. I have no idea if this is going to be a buzzy, noisy horror show because of poor layout, grounding and lead dress, so please chime in if you have some recommendations on how to keep this thing have a quiet idle.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

GreasyB in YYC said:


> A bit more progress. OT, rectifier, tube sockets and filament wiring installed. I have no idea if this is going to be a buzzy, noisy horror show because of poor layout, grounding and lead dress, so please chime in if you have some recommendations on how to keep this thing have a quiet idle.
> View attachment 331933
> View attachment 331934


Looks pretty quiet there now.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Hammerhands said:


> Some of the schematics have a mute relay on the input to one of the tubes. The posted schematic is doing something on the 6V6, cutting off power?


Yes, it is grounding the grid of the 6V6, to mute it.


GreasyB in YYC said:


> compared to the 70's H-zog - there are a couple of small capacitors between the input and V1A and a high voltage cap between the 6v6 and OT. Low pass filtering? Does anyone have any info on why these are included in the 60's schematic and not the 70's version?


I'm not all that clear on which is actually the 'older' version of these two. 
The caps to ground at the input side of V1 may be for HF stability (@Granny Gremlin ). Or maybe to reduce buzziness as is often done in high gain areas. A lot of gain on treble frequencies can make things very harsh and messy, so high cut is often seen in real high gain circuits. It can be balanced out again later, after the gain stages.
The cap across the OT primary appears to be a 'conjunctive filter', something Gar seems to have been fond of. Again, for HF stability. More often seen in Garnets as a cap and resistor in series, placed across the OT primary. The 'Pro' model is an example that comes to mind.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

jb welder said:


> I'm not all that clear on which is actually the 'older' version of these two.
> The caps to ground at the input side of V1 may be for HF stability (@Granny Gremlin ). Or maybe to reduce buzziness as is often done in high gain areas. A lot of gain on treble frequencies can make things very harsh and messy, so high cut is often seen in real high gain circuits. It can be balanced out again later, after the gain stages.
> The cap across the OT primary appears to be a 'conjunctive filter', something Gar seems to have been fond of. Again, for HF stability. More often seen in Garnets as a cap and resistor in series, placed across the OT primary. The 'Pro' model is an example that comes to mind.



The first schem in this thread is the later version (H Zog vs Herzog). You can tell because it has relays and better filtering as well as the updated model name..

Not sure what the caps would be for myself, but, if it is for HF filtering (seems likely), that could be helpful for me with the issues in my build. It's been ages since I looked at a proper H(er)zog schem; mine is closer to an actual Champ.


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

Progress update #2. Almost complete. I definitely wouldn't use a smaller chassis.  
Due to space restrictions, I didn't add the selectable cathode bypass cap option. I have included a switchable NFB option and have replaced the bright/bass rotary switch with a small toggle. I'll attempt to make a clip of it once it's up and running.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

Those big resistors get really hot.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Hammerhands said:


> Those big resistors get really hot.


Good catch ! 
That yellow wire should not be there...
The cap ontop of the resistor ...


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

GreasyB in YYC said:


> Progress update #2. Almost complete. I definitely wouldn't use a smaller chassis.
> Due to space restrictions, I didn't add the selectable cathode bypass cap option. I have included a switchable NFB option and have replaced the bright/bass rotary switch with a small toggle. I'll attempt to make a clip of it once it's up and running.
> View attachment 332392
> View attachment 332393


I assume all those filter caps inside are the same as the can cap on the outside of mine?


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

Frenchy99 said:


> Good catch !
> That yellow wire should not be there...
> The cap ontop of the resistor ...


Yeah, there isn’t really much real estate in there. Do you have a recommendation on where to put that load resistor? I also haven’t finished wiring everything up yet.


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

zdogma said:


> I assume all those filter caps inside are the same as the can cap on the outside of mine?


Yes, that can cap on yours was 4x20uf. I used 4x40uf because that’s what I had on hand and to maybe tighten the tone up a bit.


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

I appreciate the extra set of eyes on this project everyone! Thanks for the help.


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

Frenchy99 said:


> Good catch !
> That yellow wire should not be there...
> The cap ontop of the resistor ...


That cap on top of the resistor is the cathode resistor and bypass cap for the power tube. The resistance value is correct but is slightly oversized in terms of power handling. Do cathode resistors get very hot? Any suggestions on how to rewire that bypass cap if it’s too close to the resistor?


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

jb welder said:


> The caps to ground at the input side of V1 may be for HF stability (@Granny Gremlin ). Or maybe to reduce buzziness as is often done in high gain areas.


So I was thinking about this and, firstly, 220uF in front and then another 120uF after the grid stopper? Are those values for real? Even checked my hardcopy - no decimal in sight. I ain't got anything like that on hand.

Secondly, since the purpose of the grid stopper is the same (forming an RC low pass filter with the tube's input capacitance), why add these 2 huge caps vs changing the grid stopper value to adjust the filter rolloff? Maybe that is what Gar did, as the later HZog has a 41k (vs 68K) grid stopper and neither of those caps. Though I am not sure how much of a difference that would make... Seems like (assuming total input capacitance of the typical 12AX7 at approx 151pF - just quickly googled that, first result was Aiken's page) a 'normal' v1 grid stopper of 68k would roll off at about 15kHz. Dropping the grid stopper to 41k moves the up rolloff to 25k, so significant difference, but in the wrong direction.

41k is much closer to the effective grid stopper value of using the 'hi' input of a 5F1 Champ with 2 x 68Ks in parallel. Perhaps Gar decided the treble was more important in the end (or that's what players wanted and cared about more).


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

Granny Gremlin said:


> So I was thinking about this and, firstly, 220uF in front and then another 120uF after the grid stopper? Are those values for real? Even checked my hardcopy - no decimal in sight. I ain't got anything like that on hand.
> 
> Secondly, since the purpose of the grid stopper is the same (forming an RC low pass filter with the tube's input capacitance), why add these 2 huge caps vs changing the grid stopper value to adjust the filter rolloff? Maybe that is what Gar did, as the later HZog has a 41k (vs 68K) grid stopper and neither of those caps. Though I am not sure how much of a difference that would make... Seems like (assuming total input capacitance of the typical 12AX7 at approx 151pF - just quickly googled that, first result was Aiken's page) a 'normal' v1 grid stopper of 68k would roll off at about 15kHz. Dropping the grid stopper to 41k moves the up rolloff to 25k, so significant difference, but in the wrong direction.
> 
> 41k is much closer to the effective grid stopper value of using the 'hi' input of a 5F1 Champ with 2 x 68Ks in parallel. Perhaps Gar decided the treble was more important in the end (or that's what players wanted and cared about more).


I asked another GC member and he thinks those are pf-value ceramic caps after the input jack. Seems more legit. I have another question, the 41k grid stopper and 1 Meg grid leak are in reverse order (compared to many input->V1 schematics including the Champ) and form a voltage divider the way they are oriented in the Herzog schematic. What would be the reasoning and what would be the effect in the Herzog if the order was changed to be like a Champ?

Thanks for the reply @Granny Gremlin


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

pF makes sense in terms of the way Gar documented it on that diagram, I just assumed those values would be way too small to have much effect; I was thinking nF but he usually used a decimal in that case (and no terminal 0s) and then they'd still be a bit big probably.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Going by what I've seen in other Garnet amps, I would say those two caps are for sure in pF values.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Yes, pico farads.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

GreasyB in YYC said:


> I have another question, the 41k grid stopper and 1 Meg grid leak are in reverse order (compared to many input->V1 schematics including the Champ) and form a voltage divider the way they are oriented in the Herzog schematic. What would be the reasoning and what would be the effect in the Herzog if the order was changed to be like a Champ?


I don't think the difference would be anything significant. Either way it's a voltage divider.
If you look closely at the Champ (ex. 5F1), using input #1 puts the 1M before the (34K) grid stop, but using input #2 the grid stop comes first, then you have the 1M with 68K in series to ground.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

I tried the caps assuming pF as suggested and it didn't do anything for my issue; maybe worse actually. Hard to tell without a scope.


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

Herzog schematic. 12AX7 cathode resistors are 1.5k, not 260(?). 6V6 cathode resistor appears to be 470R. Added 68pf.


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

Granny Gremlin said:


> I tried the caps assuming pF as suggested and it didn't do anything for my issue; maybe worse actually. Hard to tell without a scope.


What is the issue you're trying to resolve on your Herzog?


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

WCGill said:


> Herzog schematic. 12AX7 cathode resistors are 1.5k, not 260(?). 6V6 cathode resistor appears to be 470R. Added 68pf.
> 
> View attachment 333716


That 470R cathode bias resistor on the 6V6 may bias it too hot. Is this schematic from a new Herzog? Thanks!


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

GreasyB in YYC said:


> That 470R cathode bias resistor on the 6V6 may bias it too hot. Is this schematic from a new Herzog? Thanks!


I've had this one almost 40 years.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

GreasyB in YYC said:


> What is the issue you're trying to resolve on your Herzog?


Mine is more Champ 5F1 ish AND I decided to complicate matters by adding a stinger fuzz. I have oscillation. Got rid of most of it but still have it if I engage the fuzz at more than moderate settings.



GreasyB in YYC said:


> That 470R cathode bias resistor on the 6V6 may bias it too hot. Is this schematic from a new Herzog? Thanks!


I went to 1k, made it much more stable though 470 is pretty standard. Some diagrams for some versions of the Champ and/or Herzog (or other Garnet single ended 6V6 amps, I forget now) show 1K as well. Still wails/not too cold at all.


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

player99 said:


> What does Herzog mean? I Googled it and got this:
> 
> Herzog is a German hereditary title held by one who rules a territorial duchy, exercises feudal authority over an estate called a duchy, or possesses a right by law or tradition to be referred to by the ducal title. The word is usually translated by the English duke and the Latin dux.


from what I know, Randy was reading a book called "Herzog" at the time, and I believe they both saw the cover & liked the name

looks like you can download a copy here:









PDF - Herzog Book by Saul Bellow Free Download (371 pages)


Free Download or read online Herzog book by Saul Bellow in ePUB, PDF or MOBI eBooks to read on your desktop, iPhone, iPad, Android phone or tablet.




blindhypnosis.com





this looks intriguing:

"Some of the techniques listed in Herzog may require a sound knowledge of Hypnosis, users are advised to either leave those sections or must have a basic understanding of the subject before practicing them."


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## GreasyB in YYC (Jan 6, 2020)

Herzog final (?) build update. I got tired of having almost no elbow room in the original chassis and re-did the entire project in a 12"x8"x3" chassis. It was almost impossible to do component and wiring revisions in that ship-in-a-bottle. Much respect to those who have built amps from Bell and Howell projectors.

Anyway, with more space in the chassis, I updated the layout taking into account the recommendations from others in this thread.

I added a Princeton-style tone control sans bright cap. It's a subtle, but useful high-pass filter.

The wiring is a bit messy, but the unit is pretty quiet for being a high gain effect. If I was able to, I'd add an audio clip because it sounds great. 

Thanks to everyone who participated in this thread!


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

That looks great ! 

Congrats !!!


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## Gordie (Mar 22, 2014)

I thought it came from Hertz Rent-A-Car, and they used to rent out Harleys too.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Herzog is also a train car that carries and dumps ballast (the sharp gravel train tracks are built on)

Herzog in action

Action at about 60 seconds in


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

@Lincoln ...Are the openings for the ballast controlled remotely?
This one is manually controlled...a LOT of difficult walking!!


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

greco said:


> @Lincoln ...Are the openings for the ballast controlled remotely?
> This one is manually controlled...a LOT of difficult walking!!


I was pretty sure the gates were remotely operated. That guy must really like his work!
The dust mask hanging around his neck, not being worn is another indication.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Here's another Herzog video. This one starts at 1:44

More Herzog

I think the chances are pretty good that this is where the name came from.


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

Randy Bachman has stated that the "Herzog" name came from a book he was reading

"*We were looking for a name, and at the time I was reading a book with HERZOG written across the cover. Hence the name, so we could stop referring to the unit as the "noise thing".

from:



http://garnetamps.com/zog_story.htm


*


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