# 12th fret



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I'm thinking about heading down to the 12th fret tomorrow and look at a couple guitars I'm interested in. Just wondering if anyone knows how flexible they are in their pricing? One I'll be looking at is a Martin D-18 Golden Era and they've got it priced fairly high. About the same as L&M and a couple other stores.
I was talking to a music store in Thorold and they said they could order me one in at a price that beats even MFG in the US. Of course I'd rather buy one that I've had my hands on and know I like but I guess if it comes down to it I'll order the lowest price. 
So does anyone have any experience with negotiating with the 12th Fret.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i've gotten small discounts but nothing substantial. but i wasn't buying an expensive acoustic


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## dodgechargerfan (Mar 22, 2006)

I took my wife with me when I got my Eastman.
I let her deal with the guy while I noodled. She got about 10% off and I asked for a pack of flat wounds, which he threw and then put them on and set the guitar up while I waited. I just expected the pack in the case.

They are pretty good there, I think. If they say there is no wiggle room, there isn't.
I believe that my guitar was old stock (as opposed to used). So, they were likely happy to see it move.


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> Thorold and they said they could order me one in at a price that beats even MFG in the US.
> Of course I'd rather buy one that I've had my hands on and know I like but I guess if it comes down to it I'll order the lowest price.


Have them order it with the stipulation that you have to play it for a bit first before committing.
If you don't buy it, they'll just hang it on the rack.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> I'm thinking about heading down to the 12th fret tomorrow and look at a couple guitars I'm interested in. Just wondering if anyone knows how flexible they are in their pricing? One I'll be looking at is a Martin D-18 Golden Era and they've got it priced fairly high. *About the same as L&M and a couple other stores.*


That tells me it's not priced "fairly high" but, rather, "average"...



> I was talking to a music store in Thorold and they said they could order me one in at a price that beats even MFG in the US. Of course I'd rather buy one that I've had my hands on and know I like but I guess if it comes down to it I'll order the lowest price.


That _could _be the _worst _decision you ever make.

If all you care about it price, go for it. But I've encountered more than one store in Canada (not authorized dealers) that will purchase guitars from US dealers at a ridiculously low margin and sell them in Canada at _slightly _lower prices than the authorized dealers. When you buy from one of these stores you will _not _have the factory warranty. There was one store in particular that would tell customers that the Taylor warranty was valid only in the United States (a lie) so they offered their own "warranty". We found out wh0 was supplying them with guitars and shut them down for six months. They got the message and stopped selling to this one particular GTA store...



> So does anyone have any experience with negotiating with the 12th Fret.


The Twelfth Fret is well up in the upper echelon of Canadian guitar stores. They're fair, and that's fine.

Remember, a deal is only fair if it's fair for all parties involved...


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

actually I ended up buying from MFG as their price did beat everything that I found. Much lower than I initially thought. Beat the lowest Canadian price by close to $500. And Jon at MFG comes highly regarded.
There was a time that I pledged loyalty to one music store but that kind of loyalty is long gone just like good paying gigs. Now all that matters to me is the lowest price.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> Now all that matters to me is the lowest price.


That's a shame...


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> actually I ended up buying from MFG as their price did beat everything that I found. Much lower than I initially thought. Beat the lowest Canadian price by close to $500. And Jon at MFG comes highly regarded.
> There was a time that I pledged loyalty to one music store but that kind of loyalty is long gone just like good paying gigs. Now all that matters to me is the lowest price.


Service is a big part for me especially when buying an acoustic - I've only bought an acoustic online twice and it was from the same tried and true dealer rep. Sounds like you did good on both accounts of service and price. Enjoy and post pics!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Alex said:


> Service is a big part for me especially when buying an acoustic - I've only bought an acoustic online twice and it was from the same tried and true dealer rep. Sounds like you did good on both accounts of service and price. Enjoy and post pics!


What service. With an acoustic such as my Martin the service is my Warranty with Martin. When it comes to setups or any kind of repairs I am loyal. I like Folkway for that and I don't need to buy the acoustic there to get good service. Just like my car. I have had no loyalty to one brand or dealership. But when it came to service I do have a garage that I take my car to that have been great. But they didn't sell me a car.
There was one exception. Once I bought a D28 from the Long and Mcquade in Cambridge. Within 6 months the guitar developed a finish problem where the finish was completely flaking off. L&M paid to ship the guitar both ways back to Martin. They then gave me a used Martin HD35 off the floor to use for as long as it took, which ended up being a little over 6 months. Out of any music stores anywhere in Canada I find L&m about the best when it comes to service. And I do try to be loyal to them as much as possible. But I can't leave hundreds of dollars on the table when it comes to major purchases. For the most part if I buy a Martin, Fender or Gibson, my deal is with them


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steve6D said:


> That's a shame...


Yup a shame I guess for retailers. But then they need to know that the service I'm looking for is low price. If I'm looking for something else such as some kind of extra after sale service and I feel I need it, I'll pay for it.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Alex said:


> Service is a big part for me especially when buying an acoustic - I've only bought an acoustic online twice and it was from the same tried and true dealer rep. Sounds like you did good on both accounts of service and price. Enjoy and post pics!


Yes I feel they gave me great service and the lowest price. Grand slam.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> Yup a shame I guess for retailers. But then they need to know that the service I'm looking for is low price. If I'm looking for something else such as some kind of extra after sale service and I feel I need it, I'll pay for it.


A low price isn't a "service", it's a thing.

And it's a "shame" for all concerned.

Before I got into guitar retail, I enjoyed the relationship I had with my local store. Did I always get the lowest price? No, but sometimes. Did I know about new stuff they were getting before it was delivered? Usually. Did I get adjustments made to my equipment, or quick tweaks done gratis? All the time. 

Once I got into guitar retail, I enjoyed having loyal customers. Did they always get the lowest price? No, but sometimes. Did they know about new stuff we were getting before it was delivered? Usually. Did they get adjustments made to their equipment, or quick tweaks, done gratis? All the time.

I no longer have a dog in the guitar-retail hunt. But dealing with guitar retail customers for the better part of two decades (as both a manufacturer's rep and a guitar store employee) has taught me a couple things about both customers and retailers.

Most importantly, the "I'm only interested in getting the lowest possible price" customer is the customer that retailers don't want. That customer brings nothing to the retail table. That customer is most interested in taking advantage of a retailer at the expense of that retailer being able to turn a profit, to pay his employees, to invest in new stock and to keep his lights on. To the contrary, a customer who understands that a retailer needs to actually make money, and is perfectly okay with paying a fair price, is the customer who gets a head's up on new stuff coming in, front row at clinics or meet & greets (we used to do those all the time) and just, in general, gets treated better than someone who's a tightwad. Hell, I used to give my good customers price breaks on just about everything whether they asked for it or not.

I used to work a the now-defunct Guitar Trader in San Diego. We were the "go to" store in San Diego. We had damn near _everything_. We stocked as well as Guitar Center but we didn't have the corporate nonsense to contend with. We had good customers and bad customers. Back in the day when the list price of a Taylor 710 was around $1,400.00, I had a customer come in and spend a lot of time looking at higher end guitars, including the 710. He spent, probably, two and a half hours playing this guitar and that guitar, asking questions about them, asking advice, etc. When it came time to choose a guitar, he chose the 710. Dealer cost on it at the time was about $700.00. I probably quoted him around 35% off; around $900.00; a very good deal on that guitar. At the time, I got a base pay plus 14% commission on the gross profit. So, if I sold the guitar at $900.00, I would personally make $28.00 _before taxes_. I was okay with that. Our store owner empowered the sales staff to make the deal. Unlike GC, we didn't have to "check with my manager".

Anyway, Dude clerked me and clerked me, demanding I sell him the guitar for dealer cost. He actually said "Why should you make money on it?"; I shit you not. I ended up selling it to the guy for $775.00 just to get him out of the store (we had to get the manager involved to have someone removed). So, for the two and a half hours I spent with this guy, I made a whopping $10.50 before taxes. From that point forward, Dude either paid full price for everything or he wasn't sold anything. He'd come in for a set of Elixir strings and pay full price (which, back then, I think was around $22.00). Anyone else was paying $15.00. I remember him telling me he wanted to get the 50th Anniversary Strat when we got it. Well, we were getting two of them in. I called two _good _customers regarding them. One bought it over the phone and the other told me he would be in the next day to "check it out". I knew he'd buy it so, when Dude came in later that afternoon asking about them, I told him that one was sold and one was reserved for inspection. He got upset and demanded that I let him see it. His opinion was that if he liked it, he should be able to negotiate a deal on it right then and there.

Well, his "opinion" meant dick. He demanded to see the manager, who totally had my back. Thom (the manager) told Dude that maybe he would be happier shopping elsewhere.

We were, by every measure, the best guitar store in San Diego, and this guy essentially negotiated himself out of us wanting him as a customer.

Talking with a friend some years later, I learned he'd done the same thing at two other area stores...


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## Blind Dog (Mar 4, 2016)

Congrat's guitarman2. I bought a guitar (consignment) from 12th Fret, about a month ago, and they were cool to deal with. I didn't 'dicker' because the price was good, according to my homework, and I don't like the whole haggling thing. I'm pretty forthright, and when I sell, my price is what I want & need to get out of the (fair) transaction. I don't play the, "How much extra can I soak the mark/buyer for?" _game_ when I'm selling -- I don't feel the need to play _it_ when the shoe's on the other foot. 

A $500 savings is good thing. Damn good. Congrat's on that too. 

Happy for you, and look forward to your ngd thread. ☮


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steve6D said:


> A low price isn't a "service", it's a thing.


Everything's a thing.




Steve6D said:


> Once I got into guitar retail, I enjoyed having loyal customers. Did they always get the lowest price? No, but sometimes. Did they know about new stuff we were getting before it was delivered? Usually. Did they get adjustments made to their equipment, or quick tweaks, done gratis? All the time.


So I should pay more for stuff so a retailer can call me up about new stuff coming in? In 40 years of playing I've never had a retailer call me up about new stuff. And the 70's, 80's and some of the 90's were the age of loyalty.




Steve6D said:


> Most importantly, the "I'm only interested in getting the lowest possible price" customer is the customer that retailers don't want.


Well no shit. And consumers don't want the "I'm the most expensive retailer", either.




Steve6D said:


> That customer brings nothing to the retail table.


And herein lies some of the problems with this type of retailer. They don't give a shit. Its not what can they do for us. Entitled. So a consumer fights back with the entitlement of "lowest price".



Steve6D said:


> That customer is most interested in taking advantage of a retailer at the expense of that retailer being able to turn a profit, to pay his employees, to invest in new stock and to keep his lights on.


And if a consumer is not watching they'll be the ones taken advantage of.



Steve6D said:


> To the contrary, a customer who understands that a retailer needs to actually make money, and is perfectly okay with paying a fair price,


Hey I'm going to fight for the lowest price I can get. I do this in a respectful way. The retailer is free to accept or reject my offers. I'm free to accept their bottom line or walk. What don't you get about that?



Steve6D said:


> is the customer who gets a head's up on new stuff coming in, front row at clinics or meet & greets (we used to do those all the time) and just, in general, gets treated better than someone who's a tightwad. Hell, I used to give my good customers price breaks on just about everything whether they asked for it or not.


So if you've got 20 loyal customers who pay anything you ask for items that want front row center but only 5 seats.... This has no value to me. Ask any of those loyal customers if they would rather a discount on guitars and amps or a chance at the lottery of getting front row center at clinics and they'll choose the discounts every time. Except maybe in the world inside your head.




Steve6D said:


> I used to work a the now-defunct Guitar Trader in San Diego. We were the "go to" store in San Diego. We had damn near _everything_. We stocked as well as Guitar Center but we didn't have the corporate nonsense to contend with. We had good customers and bad customers. Back in the day when the list price of a Taylor 710 was around $1,400.00, I had a customer come in and spend a lot of time looking at higher end guitars, including the 710. He spent, probably, two and a half hours playing this guitar and that guitar, asking questions about them, asking advice, etc. When it came time to choose a guitar, he chose the 710. Dealer cost on it at the time was about $700.00. I probably quoted him around 35% off; around $900.00; a very good deal on that guitar. At the time, I got a base pay plus 14% commission on the gross profit. So, if I sold the guitar at $900.00, I would personally make $28.00 _before taxes_. I was okay with that. Our store owner empowered the sales staff to make the deal. Unlike GC, we didn't have to "check with my manager".
> 
> Anyway, Dude clerked me and clerked me, demanding I sell him the guitar for dealer cost. He actually said "Why should you make money on it?"; I shit you not. I ended up selling it to the guy for $775.00 just to get him out of the store (we had to get the manager involved to have someone removed). So, for the two and a half hours I spent with this guy, I made a whopping $10.50 before taxes. From that point forward, Dude either paid full price for everything or he wasn't sold anything. He'd come in for a set of Elixir strings and pay full price (which, back then, I think was around $22.00). Anyone else was paying $15.00. I remember him telling me he wanted to get the 50th Anniversary Strat when we got it. Well, we were getting two of them in. I called two _good _customers regarding them. One bought it over the phone and the other told me he would be in the next day to "check it out". I knew he'd buy it so, when Dude came in later that afternoon asking about them, I told him that one was sold and one was reserved for inspection. He got upset and demanded that I let him see it. His opinion was that if he liked it, he should be able to negotiate a deal on it right then and there.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry. I kind of glossed over everything in between "now-defunct Guitar Trader in San Diego" and "best guitar store in San Diego"


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

I'm not very bright... when my serious buying binge began years ago after many years with the same two guitars I went only to 12th Fret after concluding that they were probably the most-serious guitar store in Toronto. I bought four guitars from them in a couple of years, not cheap ones either. Only after I started trying to flip them some time later did I learn that their prices were top-dollar and could be beaten at other places in the GTA and - especially - in the U.S.

The only "service" that I got for these premium prices was on my last purchase from them. When the Taylor T5 came out I was convinced I could fall in love with one. I bought one, returned it a week later and bought another one, and then returned it a week later - infatuation finally lost forever - and bought a Tele. However this is not exactly an unheard-of thing.

One staff member - Mike McAvan - was a good guy and a bit more open to negotiation, a couple-hundred dollars on a $3K+ guitar. All others encountered there seemed elitist and dismissive about not only negotiations, but and also about answering questions, making recommendations, allowing for customer preferences different from their own, etc. Mike left the store long ago, and I never used my wife as dodgechargerfan did, so while I've dropped in very occasionally I haven't bought anything in years. Bought literally dozens of guitars elsewhere.

No doubt that 12th Fret are experts, but price and service are *both* important. If the service *received* (including the way it's delivered) doesn't have a value equal to the premium being paid, what's the point? I'm not down for paying a premium price for service I *might* need down the road. I concluded that price and service were better elsewhere and voted with my wallet.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

boyscout said:


> I'm not very bright... when my serious buying binge began years ago after many years with the same two guitars I went only to 12th Fret after concluding that they were probably the most-serious guitar store in Toronto. I bought four guitars from them in a couple of years, not cheap ones either. Only after I started trying to flip them some time later did I learn that their prices were top-dollar and could be beaten at other places in the GTA and - especially - in the U.S.
> 
> The only "service" that I got for these premium prices was on my last purchase from them. When the Taylor T5 came out I was convinced I could fall in love with one. I bought one, returned it a week later and bought another one, and then returned it a week later - infatuation finally lost forever - and bought a Tele. However this is not exactly an unheard-of thing.
> 
> ...


When it comes to lowest price and service you can have both. There really isn't much after care service a retailer can offer you. L7M is pretty good in that respect though. Their prices aren't bad. Not necessarily the lowest but most times pretty close. They are big and can afford to do more for the customer and they have been pretty good to me. For that I've shown a certain amount of loyalty.

But the price of this last Martin I bought at there store would have been close to 5k all in. I got it for $3,816. I can't leave that much money on the table. I just can't. 12th fret was about the same.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> So I should pay more for stuff so a retailer can call me up about new stuff coming in? In 40 years of playing I've never had a retailer call me up about new stuff. And the 70's, 80's and some of the 90's were the age of loyalty.


Of course you haven't, because you're not the type of customer a retailer wants to spend much time with or wants to be too bothered with...



> Well no shit. And consumers don't want the "I'm the most expensive retailer", either.[/quote\
> 
> Of course not. Then again, I'm pretty sure I've been constantly referring to fairness in a deal. You're not interested in that. We get it...
> 
> ...


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

ok SteveD. Nice way to try and get the last word. Include all comments inside the quote making it difficult to quote.

You seem to take it personally when a consumer only wants the best deal he can get. Quite often its the retailers who make their own bed with expensive advertisements touting the lowest prices. The landscape has changed quite a bit from what it used to be. Brick and Mortar cannot compete with online. Mom and pop can't compete with the likes of Guitar Center or L&M. I do take advantage of "best service" and pay a little more when I shop from L&M as they have proven over time to be very good with service in some areas. Not so much with knowledgeable sales people, with exceptions but pretty good in after care service. But I'll choose when that suits me best or when the absolute dollar suits me best cause I try to look out for me. I'm not trying to support a retailer. The retailer has to look out for him self. So its his job to know how low he can go. If he can compete with buddy down the street he may not last. Thats life in the retail world.
Some people go to 30 different grocery stores to get everything they need at that absolute lowest price possible. Probably when I'm retired and have more time than money that might be me. Because I'll do what is necessary to live within my means.
Maybe I can't afford a 5k guitar but if someone sells me the exact same guitar for $3,800 and I can afford that. Who wouldn't. Maybe I'm not trying to get a guitar that cheap because I'm a tight wad. Maybe its a dream guitar and that is the only way I would ever own it. What else can a music store offer me? The warranty is with Martin. I'm buying their brand.
If this magical guitar store in San Diego couldn't make it then its most likely they didn't evolve with the times and adjust their business model. If its so great where is it? I've been shopping Long and Mcquade since 1982 and its still here stronger than ever.

EDIT: ok so I just looked it up and the first Long and Mcquade opened up in 1957. They aren't perfect but they're certainly doing something right. They aren't always the lowest price but sometimes they are. They give me what I want and sometimes I buy from them even though they aren't the lowest price and sometimes I don't. In the few L&M stores I go in they all know my name and I have a good relationship with them. That seems to describe the relationship you say is important. And that illustrates that I'm not always a tight wad that demands the lowest price 100% of the time. But sometimes I do. Thats how free enterprise works.
If I'd bought the guitar from L&M I would have had 30 days to return it at full refund. I can't do that with MFG. In this instance I chose lowest price over convenience. Next time I may not.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i love shopping at the fret, because even though i've only bought a small amount of stuff there compared to most people, they always treat me well when i go in there. 
much better than the place down the block from me, where i've been greeted with sneers and rude comments, and general disdain/contempt. 

that aside, someone previously mentioned dealers who buy in the us and bring them up here, and then you get no factory warranty. i would point out that anyone who buys a gibson guitar outside of the states gets no factory warranty either, even from an authorized dealer. gibson's warranty does not apply to guitars purchased outside of america.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

cheezyridr said:


> that aside, someone previously mentioned dealers who buy in the us and bring them up here, and then you get no factory warranty. i would point out that anyone who buys a gibson guitar outside of the states gets no factory warranty either, even from an authorized dealer. gibson's warranty does not apply to guitars purchased outside of america.


No, but I believe Gibson is imported into Canada by Yorkville, who _do _offer an extensive warranty which is valid nationwide (try getting that from, say, LA Music in Mississauga). It's actually quite common for an importer to be the entity offering the warranty when the guitars are imported under an agreement with the manufacturer (as is the case with Gibson and Yorkville). My point was made with reference to individual retailers in Canada who purchase guitars from individual retailers in the States.

Martin, PRS and Taylor factory warranties are intact in Canada (or at least they used to be)...


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steve6D said:


> No, but I believe Gibson is imported into Canada by Yorkville, who _do _offer an extensive warranty which is valid nationwide (try getting that from, say, LA Music in Mississauga). It's actually quite common for an importer to be the entity offering the warranty when the guitars are imported under an agreement with the manufacturer (as is the case with Gibson and Yorkville). My point was made with reference to individual retailers in Canada who purchase guitars from individual retailers in the States.
> 
> Martin, PRS and Taylor factory warranties are intact in Canada (or at least they used to be)...


For Martin it is. Not sure with PRS and Taylor.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> You seem to take it personally when a consumer only wants the best deal he can get.


Actually, now, I've got no dog in the hunt. Personally? Not at all. But that doesn't mean that I won't point out a low-value customer. If I were a retailer, and you were a customer who was only interested in getting the lowest possible price, why would I want to keep you as a customer?



> If this magical guitar store in San Diego couldn't make it then its most likely they didn't evolve with the times and adjust their business model. If its so great where is it?


They went under. Had you been paying attention you'd have seen that.

Now, 15 years ago when I was there, it was a great store. We carried everything, had a vibrant website and made a lot of money while offering fair prices. Only after the owner decided to "adjust" his business model,. to satisfy low value customers, did he go under...



> They give me what I want and sometimes I buy from them even though they aren't the lowest price and sometimes I don't.


Now you're changing your story. You said that a store can't keep your business if they don't give you the lowest price.

Which is it?



> And that illustrates that I'm not always a tight wad that demands the lowest price 100% of the time.





> In this instance I chose lowest price over convenience. Next time I may not.


Again, these last two statements are counter to your earlier comments. Which is it?


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> For Martin it is. Not sure with PRS and Taylor.


Well, I was the Taylor rep for Canada for seven years. I know it is.

One of my best friends, before he sold his store, was one of the top PRS dealers, if not THE top PRS dealer in Canada. Last I heard, the PRS factory warranty was intact in Canada...


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> L&M paid to ship the guitar both ways back to Martin. They then gave me a used Martin HD35 off the floor to use for as long as it took, which ended up being a little over 6 months.


So what was that service worth? Is MFG going to pay shipping both ways and lend you a guitar for 6 months if there's an issue with your D18? If it was me that that happened to, I'd be pretty appreciative of the service L&M gave me. And honestly, once UPS take their bite out of your wallet it's probably going to be significantly less of a saving than it may have appeared initially.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steve6D said:


> If I were a retailer, and you were a customer who was only interested in getting the lowest possible price, why would I want to keep you as a customer?


There are plenty of retailers who do want my business or I wouldn't have a house full of gear would I.




Steve6D said:


> They went under. Had you been paying attention you'd have seen that.


lol, oh I got that. Whats your point?




Steve6D said:


> Now, 15 years ago when I was there, it was a great store. We carried everything, had a vibrant website and made a lot of money while offering fair prices. Only after the owner decided to "adjust" his business model,. to satisfy low value customers, did he go under...


Well that was my original point. He obviously didn't adjust to the times he was dealing with or he'd still be here.




Steve6D said:


> Now you're changing your story. You said that a store can't keep your business if they don't give you the lowest price.
> 
> Which is it?


Not changing my story at all. If I'm paying a price that isn't the lowest I could have got there has to be value in it.
Examples: I can return it after having it 30 days. That may be something I want built-in. I am looking at a guitar that is in the store and I want that guitar, not order one online. Up until this last guitar I just bought that is the only way I ever bought a guitar. One that was in stock and I could try it first. That had value for me.
A friendly charming sales guy, front row center at a guitar clinic. No value to me. 






Steve6D said:


> Again, these last two statements are counter to your earlier comments. Which is it?


This is where you seem to have a disconnect. Its hard to imagine you were ever in sales. I DECIDE WHAT HAS VALUE. A store offering me phone calls on new upcoming stuff must not ever heard of the Internet. Front row center at a guitar clinic? Nah, give me a lower price. 
Returns after 30 days. Equipment in stock for me to check out in person, sales guy gives me a used guitar off the floor to use while my guitar is in for a lengthy repair, all have value to me. Although if a price comes in low enough that can go out the window. 
On this last guitar thats what happenned.
I admit sometimes this can get you in to trouble and a "Too good to be true" situation can burn you. And that would be my fault. I won't blame retailers for that. So don't blame me if you go out of business for selling me something too cheap.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> If I'd bought the guitar from L&M I would have had 30 days to return it at full refund. I can't do that with MFG. In this instance I chose lowest price over convenience. Next time I may not.


You can't return it? What if it's not a 'good' one? I'm not one to buy an acoustic without playing and hearing it first. But that's just me.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> There are plenty of retailers who do want my business or I wouldn't have a house full of gear would I.


I didn't ask about your house full of gear.

I asked you a very simple question: Why would I want you as a customer. I've asked you that question a few times.

You've proven to be a complete failure at being able to provide an answer.

It's actually a pretty uncomplicated concept: If you're unable to explain why you have value to a retailer, you don't have any...


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

gtrguy said:


> So what was that service worth? Is MFG going to pay shipping both ways and lend you a guitar for 6 months if there's an issue with your D18? If it was me that that happened to, I'd be pretty appreciative of the service L&M gave me. And honestly, once UPS take their bite out of your wallet it's probably going to be significantly less of a saving than it may have appeared initially.


Yes I don't deny there are some risks. Most warranty work can be handled by local authorized Martin dealers. However if my guitar develops a finish problem like a D28 I had in the 90's then I'd be on my own to ship it to Martin and back and be without my guitar for 6 to 8 months without a loaner. The chance of that is less than 1% but its a possibility.
I am appreciative of L&M. They've been mostly great and a lot of my business still goes their way. 
In this case I likely couldn't have afforded this guitar at Canadian prices. It was a stretch for me for what I did pay. I had the cash save for it except for about $300 which I borrowed out of my Italy trip fund that will happen next April. Even though I've got enough equipment to sell that will more than pay that back my wife still wasn't happy. I wouldn't have wanted to borrow close to 1k from that fund just so I could make a local retailer happy. More important for my wife to be happy.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

gtrguy said:


> You can't return it? What if it's not a 'good' one? I'm not one to buy an acoustic without playing and hearing it first. But that's just me.


I've been playing for over 40 years. I've owned hundreds of guitars low end to mostly high end. For the most part this philosophy of "This guitar is a good one", is for the most part Internet lore. Although there are dogs out there I've notice some lines have more consistency than others. I have owned my HD28V for 7 years and I play one every time I see one in the music stores and I have never played a bad one. I hear the same thing about the D-18V and the GE's. So I took a chance on that reputation. I'm pretty sure if it was bad I could send it back for another. But I'll pay shipping. Thats the chance I took. This is the first time I've done this. We'll see how it goes.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steve6D said:


> I didn't ask about your house full of gear.
> 
> I asked you a very simple question: Why would I want you as a customer. I've asked you that question a few times.
> 
> ...


Ok now I know you're full of shit. You aint no salesguy. Otherwise why would I have to justify why you want me as a customer. Why don't you justify why I'd want to shop at your store. And don't give me that crap about front row center at a guitar clinic or phone calls for new products.
This is the problem with retailers today. They feel entitled to good customers. Give me some fucken value and if I feel you're a good retailer I'll be a good customer.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> More important for my wife to be happy.


That is important for sure!


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> For the most part this philosophy of "This guitar is a good one", is for the most part Internet lore.


Sorry, I have to call bullshit on that one... my own experience says otherwise. But to each his own, buying sight unseen (hearing unheard?? LOL) is outside my comfort zone.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Yes it kind of is for me to. And until this deal I never did it. We'll see how it works out. I find those who dont buy online are starting to become the minority


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> Ok now I know you're full of shit. You aint no salesguy. Otherwise why would I have to justify why you want me as a customer. Why don't you justify why I'd want to shop at your store. And don't give me that crap about front row center at a guitar clinic or phone calls for new products.
> This is the problem with retailers today. They feel entitled to good customers. Give me some fucken value and if I feel you're a good retailer I'll be a good customer.


I'm not a sales guy. I haven't been for some time. Ten years ago, I would've been telling you why you should be willing to shop at my store. As I don't work in the MI industry any more I figure, hey, let's put you on the spot and see if you can actually explain your position.

And you're a failure.

See, you have no true value to a retailer. The fact that you can't say what your value is serves as undeniable proof of that. The fact that you have a "house full of gear" is meaningless. The only "reason" you'll accept from me, for why you'd want to shop at my store, is because I'll give you the lowest price. Well, guess what, Sport: I'd rather walk you than have you darken my doorstep.

You've got a real chip on your shoulder, undoubtedly brought about by the fact that you have to stumble from store to store to buy your equipment because no one wants to deal with you on a recurring basis. You say "Bring me some fucken [_sic_] value". If you don't know your _own _value why would anyone feel compelled to waste time "bringing" it to you? You're one of those folks who believe that a dealer needs to bend over backwards to serve your every whim. Well, you're not that guy. You don't deserve such service...


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

Sent from my Other Brain


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Yes it kind of is for me to. And until this deal I never did it. We'll see how it works out. I find those who dont buy online are starting to become the minority


There's lots of stuff I'd buy sight unseen but an acoustic instrument? I don't think I'll ever change in that regard... I'll happily be the minority in that case.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

guitarman2 said:


> This is the problem with retailers today. They feel entitled to good customers. Give me some fucken value and if I feel you're a good retailer I'll be a good customer.


This is the problem with both retailers and consumers. Entitlement. No one is entitled to anything. Retailers are not entitled to make a profit and consumers are not entitled to get a special price or exemplary service.

Steve6D's comment earlier about fairness comes to mind. A good deal is a fair deal, and a fair deal benefits both parties. When one party is constantly pulling the deal in their favour, there is no longer value in continuing that relationship for the other party.

That goes for both retailers and consumers. If a retailer wants an unreasonable profit and offers poor service, they are pulling the deal entirely in their favour. Their is no value to the consumer in purchasing from that retailer.

The opposite is also true. If a consumer wants an unreasonable discount and there is no guarantee of return business or long-term sustainability, they are pulling the deal entirely in their favour. Thus, there is no value in the retailer continuing to make an effort to sell to that consumer.

It's no different than relationship concepts like honesty, respect, trust, etc. Both sides need to give a little and meet in the middle.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

gtrguy said:


> There's lots of stuff I'd buy sight unseen but an acoustic instrument? I don't think I'll ever change in that regard... I'll happily be the minority in that case.


The truth is no one had one in stock except 12th fret. 12th fret was expensive and I wouldn't have bought the guitar for that price so I didn't even go down there to try it out knowing full well I wouldn't buy from them. So I haven't even had my hands on a D-18GE. So I'm taking a chance that I'll like the neck on it. From what I read I should. So I'm taking big chances here.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

jbealsmusic said:


> This is the problem with both retailers and consumers. Entitlement. No one is entitled to anything. Retailers are not entitled to make a profit and consumers are not entitled to get a special price or exemplary service.


I agree. I don't feel entitled for retailers to bow to my commands at my price point. Am I going to research the best value? Absolutely. I weight price very heavily. But not always exclusively. Steve6D seems like one of those that take it personal if someone trys to go for the best deal. There seems to be enough people that are sheeple and will give whatever is asked. Retailers will always value those customers the most. I'm fine with that. There are things in the past where I've paid what a person was asking even though I thought it was high. Mainly because the market for it was that high and its not like I could go down to joe blows down the street and get it. And I wanted it badly. So the market dictated the price and I decided that I would pay the premium, cause I had no choice. 
When there is choice, lots of choice and retailers are cutting each others throat this creates a great scenario for the customer to take advantage. Cause when a retailer has something that you can't get anywhere and they can dictate the price you know they'll exploit it for all they can. Maybe some day Steve6D will understand this.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

gtrguy said:


> There's lots of stuff I'd buy sight unseen but an acoustic instrument? I don't think I'll ever change in that regard... I'll happily be the minority in that case.


The two favourite acoustics I own today were bought from a distance, both from The Fret.

I used to purchase around 10 high end acoustics a year from a distance. Living in the remote area I do, I had no choice if I wanted to sample the finer offerings than to get them shipped in. Most of my purchases were informed by knowing the builder or the seller, either personally or by well earned reputation. Sometimes I was disappointed, most times not.

I made several purchases from David Wren when he worked at The Fret. He was very generous with his time, giving me in-hand inspections over the phone and offering expert descriptions of sound and feel (not an easy thing to do) on each instrument. I learned to trust him, and I have never been disappointed in comparing his descriptions and opinions once I had the instrument in my hands to my own assessment. If what he described to me fit what I was after I gave him the go ahead to charge my card (he kept the number on file!). No regrets, ever.

Since he has left The Fret I haven't purchased anything from them over the phone. Not that I don't trust the company to offer me good value, I just don't have the same history and trust with any of the individuals there. It makes a difference.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> Steve6D seems like one of those that take it personal if someone trys to go for the best deal.


I don't take that personally at all.

What I take personally is when people like you intentionally lie and misrepresent what I've said...



> When there is choice, lots of choice and retailers are cutting each others throat _*this creates a great scenario for the customer to take advantage*_. Cause when a retailer has something that you can't get anywhere and they can dictate the price you know they'll exploit it for all they can.


Exactly. You've just proven my point. You're only interested in how it benefits you. You couldn't give a flying rat's ass about the health of the retailer. you'll just suck the life out of him until he's gone and then move on to the next one.

And if a retailer has something, by definition it would not fall into the "you can't get it anywhere" category. If one retailer has it, others do.



> Maybe some day Steve6D will understand this.


What I "understand" is that I've forgotten more about this business than you'll ever know. I've been a retail customer, a retailer and a manufacturer's rep. I've seen it from all sides. I spent a reasonably large chunk of my adult life in the MI industry.

You haven't.

I know what makes for a healthy marketplace where everyone can thrive.

You don't.

These (sadly for you) are not debatable issues...


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

ronmac said:


> The two favourite acoustics I own today were bought from a distance, both from The Fret.
> 
> I used to purchase around 10 high end acoustics a year from a distance. Living in the remote area I do, I had no choice if I wanted to sample the finer offerings than to get them shipped in. Most of my purchases were informed by knowing the builder or the seller, either personally or by well earned reputation. Sometimes I was disappointed, most times not.
> 
> ...


I believe David is still one of the owners. He removed himself from the retail aspect several years ago to concentrate on building (his guitars are pretty amazing). I would trust Grant McNeill to give me the same level of service...


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> I agree. I don't feel entitled for retailers to* bow to my commands *at my price point.


Wow.

Do they even make hats big enough for you?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steve6D said:


> Exactly. You've just proven my point. You're only interested in how it benefits you.


YEEESSSS!!!




Steve6D said:


> What I "understand" is that I've forgotten more about this business than you'll ever know. I've been a retail customer, a retailer and


Eggfriginzactly. So how in the hell would I be able to suck the life out of you unless you let me. You have to be one of the most thick headed arguers ever. And I'm pretty thick headed my self.
I can only get taken advantage of by a retailer if I let them. A retailer can only be taken advantage of if they let me.

*Me: *I'll give you $500 for that guitar.
*You: *No.

Whats the problem. Don't make me get my crayons.

By the way Steve. I suggest you stay away from Craigslist or Kijiji. It'll drive you crazy.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steve6D said:


> Wow.
> 
> Do they even make hats big enough for you?


Yes. Condoms on the other hand....


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

Steve6D said:


> I believe David is still one of the owners. He removed himself from the retail aspect several years ago to concentrate on building (his guitars are pretty amazing). I would trust Grant McNeill to give me the same level of service...


I have purchased directly from Grant, and he was exceptional in every way. But that was face to face, and over time I expect we could build a great rapport long distance, as well. Problem is, I've run out of money....


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> YEEESSSS!!!


The battle cry of the no-value customer...



> Eggfriginzactly. So how in the hell would I be able to suck the life out of you unless you let me. You have to be one of the most thick headed arguers ever. And I'm pretty thick headed my self.
> I can only get taken advantage of by a retailer if I let them. A retailer can only be taken advantage of if they let me.
> 
> *Me: *I'll give you $500 for that guitar.
> ...


Wow.

Anyone whose shoe size exceeds their IQ understands that's not how negotiations go.

But you haven't been weaned from crayons yet, so I guess your ignorance on that point is unsurprising...



> By the way Steve. I suggest you stay away from Craigslist or Kijiji. It'll drive you crazy.


I've never dealt with Kijijiijiijijiijijii. Craig's List? I use it all the time, and successfully so. Then again, I understand that everyone wants a good deal.

If I were as selfish as you, however, I could see where it might be frustrating...


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> Yes. Condoms on the other hand....


How old are you? 12?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Well ok this is turning in to a non productive insult trading affair where I'm no better. So I'll be the one to self moderate and take my self out of this discussion. This is not who I want to be and mostly it only seems to be with one person here so I'll further act by exercising the ignore function for the first time. I apologize to any one else I've offended in this thread.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> Well ok this is turning in to a non productive insult trading affair where I'm no better. So I'll be the one to self moderate and take my self out of this discussion. This is not who I want to be and mostly it only seems to be with one person here so I'll further act by exercising the ignore function for the first time. I apologize to any one else I've offended in this thread.


Well, when you start referring to the size of your appendage, what did you expect?

But, whatever, see ya'...


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I wonder if it's the same ONE person on my ignore list...I can't tell 'cause he's on ignore.

Haven't offended me any...fwiw.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

ronmac said:


> I have purchased directly from Grant, and he was exceptional in every way. But that was face to face, and over time I expect we could build a great rapport long distance, as well. Problem is, I've run out of money....


I think the fact that you've dealt with him face to face already would go a long way in building that long distance rapport.

One thing I can say about David and Grant: They're both impossibly nice guys...


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

This thread is pretty ridiculous for a friday.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Steve6D said:


> No, but I believe Gibson is imported into Canada by Yorkville, who _do _offer an extensive warranty which is valid nationwide (try getting that from, say, LA Music in Mississauga). It's actually quite common for an importer to be the entity offering the warranty when the guitars are imported under an agreement with the manufacturer (as is the case with Gibson and Yorkville). My point was made with reference to individual retailers in Canada who purchase guitars from individual retailers in the States.
> 
> Martin, PRS and Taylor factory warranties are intact in Canada (or at least they used to be)...



i bought my LP at long & mac in 2014. they told me that gibson's warranty was not applicable to guitars bought in canada, the only warranty you get is the one year warranty from long & mac. living in the states, buying a gibson guitar, the warranty is *limited lifetime*. not the same thing at all. my point in bringing it up was that there's little point in mentioning that they get no warranty when some dealer goes south and buys 10 martins at sam ash or something. 99% of us are already buying new guitars (any gibson guitar) that come without a factory warranty.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i get my condoms from the library, of all places. the librarian uses them to turn pages


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

cheezyridr said:


> much better than the place down the block from me, where i've been greeted with sneers and rude comments, and general disdain/contempt.


So, in Scarborough, since Cosmo moved to the 905, Tundra to Whitby/Hamilton/Downtown (I woulda guessed those guys), and that place at Danforth and Danforth changed hands and then closed (man, did I ever love that place; I got so many good deals there, and am still kicking myself for a few that I passed on) that narrows it down to L&M, Scarboro Music (technically not in Scarborough, but close enuf) or Tom's Tone... and whenever I've been to Tom's (only twice) they're gigglin to themselves as I walk in (nowwhatimean) so it's one of the other 2. Usually at L&M they just ignore me, which I don't mind at all.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Usually at L&M they just ignore me, which I don't mind at all.


Yes me to. They all do say "Hi Terry", with a smile when I walk in because they know me. But then they let me go in and do my thing. They know I'll come and get them if I need them. This is the way I like it.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Granny Gremlin said:


> So, in Scarborough, since Cosmo moved to the 905, Tundra to Whitby/Hamilton/Downtown (I woulda guessed those guys), and that place at Danforth and Danforth changed hands and then closed (man, did I ever love that place; I got so many good deals there, and am still kicking myself for a few that I passed on) that narrows it down to L&M, Scarboro Music (technically not in Scarborough, but close enuf) or Tom's Tone... and whenever I've been to Tom's (only twice) they're gigglin to themselves as I walk in (nowwhatimean) so it's one of the other 2. Usually at L&M they just ignore me, which I don't mind at all.


the place i'm referring to wanted to sell me a vox lil nite train head $60 more than L&M. when i told the guy it made no sense, he complained that he can't compete with the big chains, and that i should support my local merchants. he refused to budge at all on his price. ever seen the lil nite train head and what it costs? if he's $60 higher than L&M (3 yrs ago) he's got some wiggle room. 

another time i took my guitar there for a set up, before i learned how to do it myself. they let a cat lay in my case, and i had a big reaction to it because i am allergic. when i emailed them, i even told them i was only making it known to them so someone else wouldn't have to go through it. they never responded. it would have been nice if they had so much as replied with "oops! sorry bout that!"

several times i've gone in there and bought strings, and when i come in the door 2 steps they look at me with a sigh and say "just... _strings_... today?"
their acoustic selection is nice. but their electric stuff is all things i wouldn't buy even if it was priced competitively. except it's not.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

cheezyridr said:


> i bought my LP at long & mac in 2014. they told me that gibson's warranty was not applicable to guitars bought in canada, the only warranty you get is the one year warranty from long & mac. living in the states, buying a gibson guitar, the warranty is *limited lifetime*. not the same thing at all. my point in bringing it up was that there's little point in mentioning that they get no warranty when some dealer goes south and buys 10 martins at sam ash or something. 99% of us are already buying new guitars (any gibson guitar) that come without a factory warranty.


Okay.

How many here buy _only _Gibsons?

Taylor and Martin, and I believe PRS have warranties which are absolutely valid in Canada.

There are stores in Canada who will buy guitars, which have valid warranties in Canada, from US stores. They will then turn around and flat-out lie to a customer and tell them no US warranty exists. I know they do this because I posed as a customer looking at high-end Taylors. This way, if someone buys one of their guitars, they don't have to worry about a customer making a warranty claim with Taylor (which would be denied). While they were out of the acoustic room, I was reciting serial numbers into my phone so I could ascertain which store(s) was selling them.

The funny part was that I was in Toronto for the MIAC Show. The owner of the store went white when he saw me in the Taylor booth.

There's plenty of reason to mention this if the only example offered to counter it is Gibson...


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

guitarman2 said:


> Well ok this is turning in to a non productive insult trading affair where I'm no better. So I'll be the one to self moderate and take my self out of this discussion. This is not who I want to be and mostly it only seems to be with one person here so I'll further act by exercising the ignore function for the first time. I apologize to any one else I've offended in this thread.


I kind of enjoyed watching you do battle with a righteous, self-important, gasbag but your decision to step out of it was the right one. Trolls always have to get the last word, and on and on it goes


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)




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