# NEED HELP in progressing on my own



## RemyTwo1 (Mar 28, 2008)

Hey guys

First, I would like to say that I have read a lot of the postings in these sections, and I am deeply humbled by the sheer skill to which I shall be seeking advice.

Having said that...

I have found myself in the following position:

I want to progress on my own with the guitar...but I don't know what to practice. I don't know where to find out what I should be learning/reading about/practicing, so I thought I'd start here. So far, I am familiar with basic major and pentatonic minor positions on the guitar, and I am familiar with several chords. I was wondering if someone could post a list of things that I should look for, for example: "First you should learn X, then find out about Y, and after arpeggios then you should check out Z" and I was wondering if everyone could agree on a comprehensive book for me to purchase that would aid me in my guitar theory knowledge. I have understood from some post that rhythm guitar knowledge is recommended before lead guitar. I am willing to progress along this line, but I was wondering what it entails and how I may go about it. As you can see, I'm a bit clueless.

This is my first post on this forum, so if I have broken any rules or misstated anything, then I apologize. Also, I understand that it is customary to list instruments, so I have a black Yamaha FG-411 and a Fender Sunburst Mexican Fat Strat, neither of which are particularly impressive but, considering my skill level, I believe they are adequate.


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## Tarl (Feb 4, 2006)

Welcome to the forum. Here is a couple of sites that may help you out and they are free. There are many like them around ...........http://www.dolphinstreet.com/ and http://www.wholenote.com/
Also just play, as much as you can. Playing with others is the easiest and most fun way to learn IMO.


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## RemyTwo1 (Mar 28, 2008)

thanks for those websites, there seems to be a ton of stuff in there. Does anyone have a comprehensive list of websites similar to those?


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

RemyTwo1 said:


> I want to progress on my own with the guitar...but I don't know what to practice.


1 - Decide what you want to play.

2 - Decide if you want to play all rhythm, all lead or both. 

3 - Dissect the main style of music you want to play to see what techniques are involved/what you need to learn.

4 - Figure out how much time you'll have to practice each day. 

5 - Seperate the techniques you'll need to learn into categories then divide your practice time by how many categories you have. Or you could just seperate your time in half... half for rhythm half for lead. Everyone learns differently so I can't really tell you how you _should_ practice. 

There's little tricks that can help you with some stuff though... like if you're lookin' to shred like a mad man develop some good tremolo picking and legato _then_ sync the two hands up. Process is much faster plus you'll have some legato chops... if you just start trying to pick every note right off the bat it'll take a lot longer because you're trying to speed both hands up at the same time.


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## RemyTwo1 (Mar 28, 2008)

Alright , sooooo could you define tremolo picking? I understand that legato is the fluidity of the music without any spaces in between, my former guitar teacher taught me that much, but how do you mean trying to pick every note, and doing something before syncing up both hands?

I want to be able to play both rhythm and lead, and I understand that it is essential to dissect the style of music, but that is where I have come to a standstill. I am unsure of where to look to learn new things that can be incorporated into my practice routine.


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

RemyTwo1 said:


> Alright , sooooo could you define tremolo picking? I understand that legato is the fluidity of the music without any spaces in between, my former guitar teacher taught me that much, but how do you mean trying to pick every note, and doing something before syncing up both hands?
> 
> I want to be able to play both rhythm and lead, and I understand that it is essential to dissect the style of music, but that is where I have come to a standstill. I am unsure of where to look to learn new things that can be incorporated into my practice routine.


Tremolo picking is where you pick a single note in rapid succession... listen to some death or black metal and it's all there. An example most people will identify immediately is the bit from EVH's Eruption, 31 seconds in. Also check out this guys cover of a Nile song, lots of tremolo picking... very clear @ 1:39 in. 

Legato when applied to guitar is hammer-ons and pull-offs using the left hand and some include tapping when using the right hand. EVH is a great example of legato... pretty much all his leads are full of legato. Paul Gilbert is also a master of legato... but what _can't_ he do?!

Picking every note means exactly that... picking every single note as clean and accurate as possible at high speeds. Start with alternate picking (down up down up all the time) then if you decide you want to, move onto economy picking which is like a mix of alternate and sweeping and has a totally different sound to it. Examples of great alternate pickers would be Paul Gilbert, Yngwie Malmsteen and Rusty Cooley. Examples of economy pickers would be Zakk Wylde and Michael Angelo Batio (he does both alternate and economy very well). 

I recommend getting a comfortable tremolo going at 140 bpm at the very least while developing legato chops. This way by the time you're ready to play stuff that is all picking, half the battle is done because both your left and right hands can already play stuff fast. It's just a matter of syncing the two up and that just takes time and practice with the metronome. 

Since you're looking to play both rhythm and lead I would just seperate my practice session like that. Roughly how much time do you have to practice each day? What kind of music are you looking to play? Like what tunes do you want to jam on? Have you developed finger independence yet?

What you practice will depend on what you want to play.


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## Coustfan'01 (Sep 27, 2006)

If you ever wat to write your own songs , I'd recommend to try to learn simpler stuff but understand it over trying to learn shred note for note. I find I spent a lot of time learning shred stuff and finalyy being able to play it but not able to translate that into my own playing.

If that makes any sense.

But hey , playing fast is sure fun too. Just don't put all your time and efforts on that aspect of your playing.


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## RemyTwo1 (Mar 28, 2008)

"Roughly how much time do you have to practice each day? What kind of music are you looking to play? Like what tunes do you want to jam on? Have you developed finger independence yet?

What you practice will depend on what you want to play."

Sorry, I should have mentioned that in the first post. I'm into blues, rock (classical) and I have heard of some of the guitarists of which you spoke: Shredders like Paul Gilbert, Eric Johnson, Steve Vai, etc. I wanna be able to shred, but I wanna be able to do more than that. Could you post up a good example of improvisational rhythm guitar? 

I have about an hour and a half to practice daily now, much much more in the summer when I graduate from U of T. I'm having trouble understanding what is involved in learning and practicing "good rhythm guitar" and chord progressions. I will definitely look more into legato and build hand speed in the way that you suggested, but I was wondering, from where did you come upon that explanation? 

That's what I'm really looking for, some source from which I would be able to forward my understanding of the instrument as it pertains to, well, blues SRV style, and classical/hard rock. No metal (unless Vai, Gilbert and Van Halen fall under metal, by metal I mean no slipknot), no jazz (not yet, later on though for sure) , no country.

Also, 140 bpm was recommended as good tremolo picking speed. How does that measure on this thing ? http://www.metronomeonline.com/


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

best advice i can give anyone who wants to learn to play lead guitar is this: learn by copping licks from albums, that's how your idols all did it, and sing every note you play (scat along) and you'll deepen your connection between your ear and your guitar. oh, and also work hard on bending in key and with vibrato.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

oh, and i sure wish it hadn't taken me this long to figure the above out


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## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

RemyTwo1 said:


> I'm having trouble understanding what is involved in learning and practicing "good rhythm guitar" and chord progressions.


 Well it goes without saying you need to know chords to play rhythm. Learn all the chords you can. You need to practice changing from one chord to another instantly. Depending on the song some beats need to be accented or muted.

Sometimes rhythm is very minimalist like a quick chop on the 2 and 4 beats and sometimes you are driving the song like Credence Clearwater Revival's 'Proud Mary'. 'Proud Mary' is a good rehearsal tune for beginning players.

Learn a 12 bar blues progression. It's only 3 chords but it can be sped up and slowed down and adapted to different time signatures and feels. It works in 4/4 as r&r, swing shuffle, funk, or a slow blues in 6/8. Same chords and same progression but the rhythm guitar duties would be different in each case.

So, learn chords, practice changing chords on the beat, listen for the rhythm guitar in songs, and don't ignore the drummer.


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## zinga (Apr 22, 2007)

hi, ok here we go do what everybody has said plus write your own music put it on disk or computer what ever you have and play lead with it or write 2nd guitar parts ect, like give your self and hour or 2 a week to just noodle i find lessons soak in better that way lol. and play with ppl the best things i have found was when i was jaming with ppl. plus have fun . good playing to you :rockon2: :banana: :food-smiley-004:


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## RemyTwo1 (Mar 28, 2008)

Lester, your post is quite interesting and has definitely helped my understanding of what it is to play rhythm. However, I was wondering if you could clarify what another player had said on this forum in another thread when he said "learn rhythm because it makes you a more well-rounded player" Does that simply mean that it makes you more versatile? And to learn and play new chords, I would have to stare down a chord chart or is there some theory that would aid me in chord generation? I heard some talk on another thread about diatonic scale and "once you have solid theory, you won't need chord charts" etc.


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## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

Remy, as far as I'm concerned you are not a real guitar player if you can't play rhythm. How useful would a drummer be if they could only do rolls? If a guitarist can only play lead then he may as well leave the stage and get a beer when the singer comes in. So yes, learning rhythm will certainly round-out your playing. In fact, a rhythm only player has a function in a band and a lead only player rarely does.

I don't read music so I first learned chords by ear, picking notes until I had it right. I had a chord book with the cowboy chords in it but I found many chords by 'fishing'. It was years later before I could name them. There really aren't as many chords as some people think. It's the inversions (stacking order of notes) and different positions on the guitar that seem endless. By all means get a chord book. You don't have learn them all but you at least have it for reference. 

The key to understanding chord structure and chord progression is in understanding intervals, and the key to understanding intervals is in how the major scale is constructed. You can get your brain around this stuff in a matter of hours. It's basic music theory. Unfortunately, the word 'theory' seems to strike terror into hearts of some guitar players but it's harmless, it's easy, and it's useful.

It's true, once you know theory, you will be able to figure out how to play a chord from its name.


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

RemyTwo1 said:


> I have about an hour and a half to practice daily now, much much more in the summer when I graduate from U of T. I'm having trouble understanding what is involved in learning and practicing "good rhythm guitar" and chord progressions. I will definitely look more into legato and build hand speed in the way that you suggested, but I was wondering, from where did you come upon that explanation?
> 
> That's what I'm really looking for, some source from which I would be able to forward my understanding of the instrument as it pertains to, well, blues SRV style, and classical/hard rock. No metal (unless Vai, Gilbert and Van Halen fall under metal, by metal I mean no slipknot), no jazz (not yet, later on though for sure) , no country.
> 
> Also, 140 bpm was recommended as good tremolo picking speed. How does that measure on this thing ? http://www.metronomeonline.com/


So for that hour and a half I would take 30 minutes to learn rhythm... chords first if you haven't learned them, songs later. Knowing your basic chords is essential! Blues requires some funky rhythm techniques but I'm glad to hear you mentioned SRV because his music will teach some of them to you. I barely play blues but when I do it's SRV! 

The next 30 minutes I would split in two. 15 minutes developing tremolo picking and 15 minutes on legato. About how I can up with that explaination... I spent a full year trying it the hard way, picking every note without having legato chops or a tremolo. I got nowhere... maybe 16th notes @ 120 bpm. I wasn't happy with my playing and looked at it logically, if I speed up my left hand and speed up my right hand seperately I'll be able to sync the two much quicker. 9 months later I was playing at 16ths @ 160 bpm all picked. Long story short I'm now working on Trilogy Suite Opus 5 by Yngwie. 

The next 30 minutes should be theory. Ask Vai, Yngwie, shit... ask anyone on this forum! Theory is very important when improvising or writing your own material. Plus it's always good to know what you're playing. For material to learn just Google it man... there's a ton of sites dedicated to music theory. Then if something is confusing ask in this forum. Paul (I think that's his username... sorry if I'm wrong) is great with theory, much better than me. 

For legato:


```
First start with trilling between your first and second finger... some people recommend starting on the high E string but if you do start there you could make too big of motions when pulling off and when you try on other strings it'll sound sloppy (you'll accidently be hitting muted strings below the one you're playing on). 

|----------------|
|-10h11p10h11p10-|
|----------------|
|----------------|
|----------------|
|----------------|
|----------------|

Continue that pattern for 5 minutes without stopping. Yes I said FIVE minutes! The just move onto your first and third finger. 

|----------------|
|-10h12p10h12p10-|
|----------------|
|----------------|
|----------------|
|----------------|
|----------------|

Continue that one for 5 minutes and move onto your first and fourth finger. 

|----------------|
|-10h13p10h13p10-|
|----------------|
|----------------|
|----------------|
|----------------|
|----------------|

Continue for 5 minutes and your 15 minutes will be up for legato! Once you develop those good, changed the "anchored finger" (the index in the above):

|----------------|
|-10h12p10h12p10-|
|----------------|
|----------------|
|----------------|
|----------------|
|----------------|

In the sample above leave your index on the 9th fret and the second finger on the 10th... use your pinky on the 12th. This will work the independence between your second and fourth fingers. Now for the hardest trill... between the ring finger and the pinky:


|----------------|
|-12h13p12h13p12-|
|----------------|
|----------------|
|----------------|
|----------------|
|----------------|

In the above your index goes on the 10th fret, second finger on the 11th fret and your ring finger on the 12th. Now you trill between your ring and your pinky. 

The key to these exercises is to get a good tone, you want to hear the notes ringing clearly. Start slow and work your way up... there's no need to rush. Remember to do it with a metronome, either 16th notes (4 notes per beat) or 32nd notes (8 notes per beat). Once you're rockin' a good trill get into some more complex patterns... first work on working with the second and fourth finger:

|-------------------|
|-13p10h11h13p11p10-|
|-------------------|
|-------------------|
|-------------------|
|-------------------|
|-------------------|

This pattern is a sixteenth note triplet (6 notes per beat)... first finger for the 10th fret, second for the 11th and fourth for the 13th. Just cycle the lick over and over. Now you work on a similar lick with the third and fourth finger:

|-------------------|
|-13p10h12h13p12p10-|
|-------------------|
|-------------------|
|-------------------|
|-------------------|
|-------------------|

Same deal... sixteenth note triplets, first finger for the 10th, third finger for the 12th and pinky for the 13th. Cycle it over and over. Practice those on all strings. Once you can do those legato chops you're ready to start trying licks from your favorite solos. Why those licks you ask? First, you'll have mad finger independence when you're done those. Second, a trill in one form or another is in 90% of solos including legato. Third, the last two patterns deal with common licks and it's really two patterns in one... hammering-on one way and pulling-off another. Why those frets you ask? Simple, the higher up on the neck the more finger strength you need. Start high and lower frets will be much easier when you can rock those.
```
Might want to copy and paste that into Notepad and go "Format --> Word Wrap" so you can read it all on your screen, lol. Make sure the font is set to Courier so the tabs stay in-tact. 

Tremolo picking you want at the very least 16th notes (4 notes per beat) at 140 bpm before you start syncing the two hands. In the end you'll want to tremolo pick as fast as the music you want to play... some death/black metal is 220+ bpm. 


```
For tremolo picking there is one very simple exercise:

|-15-0-0-0-14-0-0-0-12-0-0-0-|
|----------------------------|
|----------------------------|
|----------------------------|
|----------------------------|
|----------------------------|
|----------------------------|

Repeat it over and over, each note you fret is a beat so you're playing 16th notes... you play the 15th on the click, all the opens before the next click, 14th on the click, etc. make sure you stay in time. Do that on every string as they all have different tension and will feel different. When you're comfortable move up by 5 bpm. Start at a slow speed... you want it to feel comfortable (VERY important at high speeds!).
```
That's a whole lot of typing, but with those legato chops all that's next is going over more than one string... for exercises all you need to do is pick some of your favorite solos with legato. Van Halen and Pantera leads is how I developed my legato chops.

Once you're rippin' out mad legato solos and you've got your tremolo up sync the two hands up with some of your favorite solos that are all picking. Believe it or not my first all picking lick was the one at the start of Far Beyond the Sun by Yngwie, right before the first sweeps. It's 16ths @ 160 bpm and it follows those legato licks I posted above pretty closely so it was simple on the left hand. 

Anyway... that's the easiest way to build speed IMO. Covers all the bases.

Since you're into blues bending to pitch and proper vibrato is very important. You NEED good vibrato. Want to hear bad vibrato? Kirk Hammett... uncontrolled and not even. Want to hear good vibrato? Zakk Wylde... even and controlled. When developing vibrato remember it's BENDING the string up and down, so make sure you go up to the proper pitch and back down to the proper pitch. Start slow and build up speed. Only exercise you need is pick a string and bend up and down slowly, lol. I hate seeing/listening to people who can shred like crazy but can't bend a string.

So yeah... I hoped that helped someone out there. Our theory and technique forum might not be insanely active but when it is there's a ton of info shot out.


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## Vincent (Nov 24, 2007)

I agree with posters who say learn songs and or riffs from players you like to listen to...I could never get into practicing scales or anything like that...its good for finger cordination however when it comes to creating music i think emotion is more important than theory...scales and theory bore me however i would never say people who use or learn it are boring...it all depends on the player...If you look at a scale "most times" there are more right notes to play than wrong and basicaly my ear can tell if I hit a wrong note so why bother with a scale...having said that once in a while I will use scales as a staring off point or jumping off point if needed...If I cant come up with something I may refer to a scale.

Why dont you post some songs you want to learn and see if any of the members here can help you learn it...thats the best way to get hooked and excited about learning guitar.

I can help as long as its not jazz or classical...Ive never really got into theses styles yet except for a few songs here and there.

Post what you want to learn and get started...learning songs is the best part of learning how to play guitar however once you learn your favorite songs it kind of ruins the the "wow" factor that you may have had for that song...unfortuantely its a by product of learing other peoples music.


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## RemyTwo1 (Mar 28, 2008)

Yeah, you're right about the wow factor hehe. Well, while I certainly understand the boredom behind learning theory and I definitely recognize, Vincent, that you'd probably maaaybbbee kick my ass up and down the stage if we jammed/battled hahaha, I still feel that learning theory would be central to my foundation as a musician, and its importance for me stems from my former piano education (long since forgotten, unfortunately). Thanks, Lester, for clarifying the importance of the rhythm guitarist. I shall indeed read well into interval theory, and I fear nothing so it shouldn't be a problem . 

For anyone looking for a gauge of my skill or offer advice on tunes....welll.....I was, at some point able to play the solo to Back in Black at like 3/4 or 2/3 of Young's speed, and I was able to tap the beginning to "Hot for Teacher" that summer as well, buuut needless to say not as fast as EVH. I can still play the generic riff though. Sharp dressed man w/o solo as well, that's one of my favourites. As for rhythm, I know a handful (or basketful, whatever, a LARGE handful) of basic chords, and if I heard a simple song like, I dunno, Country Roads or The Gambler or, more relevantly, Crazy Train or My Guitar Wants to Kill your Mama, I can figure out the chord progression fairly quickly, as long as there's nothing fancy about it (anything sharp, flat, dominant, I usually never guess, but I usually know when I'm wrong/when those are included). I will definitely google chord theory and check this website www.wholenote.com which was recommended to me. I spent about an hour and a half last night slow-playing the opening riff to "Mr. Brownstone" because I was having trouble with the pulloffs. Then I looked the tab up and it turns out every other note is an open string Grrrrrrr and not what I thought it was. I'm a bit hard-headed when it comes to tabs, I always insist on figuring out the music on my own w/o tabs because I believe it will train my ear better. Then I check the tab to see how close I came. 

For shredding, I made up this, well, this "thing" but I think it's a piece of classical or some other music that I heard before, i can't remember where I've heard it from, though, or what scale it is, nothing. Let me try this tab business:

|----------------------------------------------------------
|-------------------------------------------------------
|------9---7-----------------------------------------------
|---7--------10--9-10-9------7---10-9-7-------7--9-----
|-----------------------10---------------10---------7--
|---(low E string)---------------------------------------------------

Repeat above 4 x and then

|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|-----9----------9-----------9------10------10--------10-9-7-------7-----7---9-------9
|-------10----7-----10----7-----7------10-7-----10-7----------9--5---9-5---9----10-7---10-7
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


God this is annoying

|
|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|-9-7-5-------5---7--------2-----2----5----5----4----4---2-------2--1---------------------------------
|---------3-7-------5-9-7----0-4-------3-7-------2-6--------0-3--------------2------------------1///9--
|------------------------------------------------------------------------0-3----------------------1///9--(uhh...vibrato)
|


So if that's even legible and makes sense, I guess you guys could try it out if you want and tell me what you think, and please someone tell me where it's from because I'm pretty sure I didn't just make that up. I can't play it to any degree of great speed , to some degree of cleanliness but not one with which I am satisfied.


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## Vincent (Nov 24, 2007)

I guess my point is that when the average listener hears a song its all about emotion...regardless if you use theory or not the main ingredient to any well crafted song is emotion which is something that really cant be taught or practiced however hopefully it can be learned over time.

Even someone who barley can play guitar can write a song that hits people where it counts.


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

I agree 100% with what Lester said about rhythm guitar. For the first three years I played guitar I played nothing but rhythm. It really gives you a good grounding and another thing you posted which is good is practicing with a metronome. That's something I couldn't get used to in the early days but I did use a drum machine as well. The most important thing is to stick with it. There'll be days when you'll feel like throwing your guitar out the window. When you feel that way, take a break, watch T.V., read something or go outside for a walk then come back to it later. Above all, don't push yourself too quickly. There's a lot to learn but take your time.



Lester B. Flat said:


> Remy, as far as I'm concerned you are not a real guitar player if you can't play rhythm. How useful would a drummer be if they could only do rolls? If a guitarist can only play lead then he may as well leave the stage and get a beer when the singer comes in. So yes, learning rhythm will certainly round-out your playing. In fact, a rhythm only player has a function in a band and a lead only player rarely does.
> 
> I don't read music so I first learned chords by ear, picking notes until I had it right. I had a chord book with the cowboy chords in it but I found many chords by 'fishing'. It was years later before I could name them. There really aren't as many chords as some people think. It's the inversions (stacking order of notes) and different positions on the guitar that seem endless. By all means get a chord book. You don't have learn them all but you at least have it for reference.
> 
> ...


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