# Wow! - seen this?



## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

http://kitchener.kijiji.ca/c-buy-an...als-Ray-Butt-EchoSonic-Amp-W0QQAdIdZ509791245

Only 63 ever made.
Any guesses what it might sell for?
(I have no affiliation with the owner of this amp)


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

> I know that it was still in working order last time it was used 3 years ago.


This makes me think the guy don't know how to sell something.


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## Beach Bob (Sep 12, 2009)

"Please, only serious inquiries only. I have educated myself on these amps and know their value."

I take that to mean - "I want way more money than you think its worth, and I'm not going to tell you what that is...you can guess in case you offer me more than even I think its worth"


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

That looks interesting. A little research is in order. Here is some limited info: http://echosonicamp.com/ I can't really find anything as far as power output or tube line up goes.


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## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

J-75 said:


> http://kitchener.kijiji.ca/c-buy-an...als-Ray-Butt-EchoSonic-Amp-W0QQAdIdZ509791245
> 
> Only 63 ever made.
> Any guesses what it might sell for?
> (I have no affiliation with the owner of this amp)


Correction: I now realize that 68 were built (not 63)
All the "who's who" in Nashville got one.

This amp was the fuel that launched the Rockabilly era.


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## Prosonic (Apr 28, 2009)

Very interesting! Aside from the amp section, I assume that the tape echo would probably need a little work at this point. In my experience old tape echos are finicky at best. They sound amazing when they work though!


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2013)

here's a gut shot of one.


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## ElectricMojo (May 19, 2011)

Wow, really cool.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Interesting amp, sounds like the seller may think it's worth some unrealistic amount though. I hope it's not the echosonic #27 guy.
A bit more background on these amps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Butts_EchoSonic
http://www.scottymoore.net/echosonic.html


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## Guest (Aug 11, 2013)

"I know that it was still in working order last time it was used 3 years ago."

Yea, plug the f'ing thing and check it -- is that hard to do?


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

So he has educated himself on these and know what they are worth. So why doesn't he put a price on it, and as iaresee said fire the damn thing up.

These kind of ads drive me nuts. I am pretty much 100% sure that the thing doesn't work and he knows it.


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

Drives me nuts too, especially when the "educated" feller can't even spell Ray's name right.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

It's funny...guys like this I now know to avoid. Doesn't really matter what he's selling cause it's always the same thing. I know blah blah it's worth alot of blah blah. Ok, so what? The amp might be rare and to the right guy it might mean something but in all honesty, it probably needs a ton of restorative work and the final outcome just might not be to the buyer's liking. Besides, to effectively sell he needs way more detail than his description outlines as stated by others in this thread.
The way I see it, their are two possible outcomes to this ad:
1. He gets lucky and actually finds someone to buck up large for this thing in as is condition. 
2. He keeps relisting it for the next 4 months till he realizes that he just might need to list what he wants for it or drop whatever inflated price he presently got in mind.
Either way, I wouldn't give it a second thought...


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Amps like this one are essentially museum pieces. It _will_ eventually sell, for a goodly amount, but the seller will need to wait. Listing it on Kijiji is an...interesting...first step, but the more effective listing might be in Vintage Guitar, or something similar, where folks with "lineage commitments" go. VG has run a number of articles on Ray Butts over time, and possibly even featured this model of amp, IIRC. You can read a bit more here: http://www.scottymoore.net/Ray_Butts_interview.html Apparently, Ray was happily servicing amps and Echoplexes right to his final days.

As for selling price, when there are fewer than 70 made of something, it's not like one is in a strong position to put a balanced price tag on it after scouring the istings and seeing what other vendors were able to ask and get. As well, when something was made long enough ago, you can't really take the MSRP and decide whether it has depreciated or incremented X% in value and adjust the price accordingly.


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## TheRumRunner (Sep 29, 2011)

I emailed the seller when the ad originally went up. Most of the comments above are spot on. He is looking for the goose that laid the golden egg, claiming that he has "many" high buck offers from the US on it. 

Clearly it's a cool piece, but not $5k cool.

DW


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

If he has lots of offers from the states then he ot to bite one them.


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## Guest (Aug 12, 2013)

TheRumRunner said:


> I emailed the seller when the ad originally went up. Most of the comments above are spot on. He is looking for the goose that laid the golden egg, claiming that he has "many" high buck offers from the US on it.
> 
> Clearly it's a cool piece, but not $5k cool.
> 
> DW


Did he mention why he doesn't think he should take it to a tech or turn it in to verify it works? Or did he do that and his as is just written poorly?


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

I see your point Mark. However, when one ventures into the rare and highly collectable, detailed information and description are a must. If this guy thinks that the folks out there who are actually potential buyers are going to just "take his word" which so far seems pretty vague, he's dreaming.
All high dollar instrument transactions require complete transparency otherwise buyers will hold off. This seller appears to be on the bottom end of the learning curve.



mhammer said:


> Amps like this one are essentially museum pieces. It _will_ eventually sell, for a goodly amount, but the seller will need to wait. Listing it on Kijiji is an...interesting...first step, but the more effective listing might be in Vintage Guitar, or something similar, where folks with "lineage commitments" go. VG has run a number of articles on Ray Butts over time, and possibly even featured this model of amp, IIRC. You can read a bit more here: http://www.scottymoore.net/Ray_Butts_interview.html Apparently, Ray was happily servicing amps and Echoplexes right to his final days.
> 
> As for selling price, when there are fewer than 70 made of something, it's not like one is in a strong position to put a balanced price tag on it after scouring the istings and seeing what other vendors were able to ask and get. As well, when something was made long enough ago, you can't really take the MSRP and decide whether it has depreciated or incremented X% in value and adjust the price accordingly.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Agreed. There is a difference between simply having reasonable expectations about a truly "vintage" piece, and crafting a suitable, and suitably informative, ad. I suspect the owner has the one, but didn't have a good handle on the other.


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## Echosonic (Aug 23, 2013)

*Ray Butts EchoSonic EA-1 Amplifier*

Hello everyone, I happen to own several of these EchoSonic amps; they are my favorite. Ray made less than 70 of these amps, and maybe less than 20 of those are still in existence today. I remember speaking to his son Randy about his amps and work. Vintage Guitar did do a couple of write-ups on this amp, most recently was the April 2012 issue in which I was also featured for the restorations I have done to these amps. I have visited people in other countries and helped them revive their amp, or just to go and see yet another one. I've also acquired many spare parts, and put together at least 3 different versions of the schematic, should anyone need anythying.

This amp's posting on Kijiji is down, so I don't know what information was available. But photos and a serial number would be a great start. Does anyone have the seller's contact information? I have seen people trying to advertize my own amps for sale, when I'm not even selling any of them, so be careful when these come up, so that you're not sending money to someone who disappears overnight. 

I have an extensive amount of information about these, historical, technical, etc, and I was not aware that someone else in Ontario had one. It would be great to know more about this amp. Because of the high value, you need to find someone who knows of these amps, and is interested in them. Because of this 'niche' market, it will likely require the seller to advertize on the Internet; it would be difficult for me to not come across this in the future.


For anyone interested, I've uploaded what is likely the largest collection of freely-accessible EchoSonic photos on the Internet to date. It is of one of my amps, restored from start to finish:

http://www.photobucket.com/echosonic27


As well, you can see a few photos of another amp I'm restoring:

http://www.photobucket.com/echosonic23


You can also find the scans of the April 2012 Vintage Guitar article here:

http://www.rickresource.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=404420



Feel free to email me with any questions or information.... I'm at: echosonic27 AT gmail DOT COM.




-Frank in Toronto


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## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

Thanks Frank! How very interesting that these amps are being restored right in my home town.
Are you in touch with other owners? If so, do you keep in touch with an owners forum?
Do yours have a traceable lineage that identifies the original owner(s).

Can't help my curiosity.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Why would anyone except a collector (if these can be classed as such) want to buy old technology. I just don't get it. The amps being produced today offer so much more than amps produced back in the days of this one.


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## Intrepid (Oct 9, 2008)

Here's some food for thought. What are the chances of some new member joining our Forum today whose handle is Echosonic and the only post he makes is in relation to a Thread on Echosonic Amps? I shudder at the odds. Cool looking amps though I would never consider 5k for one of these. I'll let the collectors chime in.


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## TheRumRunner (Sep 29, 2011)

Here is the email I received from the seller if anyone want to chase it down, including "Echosonic"

_Luanne Tony VanDeCamp <[email protected]>

Aug 2

to me
Hi Darren. I hope you understand that I am taking offers at this time. As you know, this is a rare gem. I have recieved offers from people in the states, but because this one made its way to Canada I would like to see it stay here.

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone._


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Do we need this?


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Intrepid said:


> Here's some food for thought. What are the chances of some new member joining our Forum today whose handle is Echosonic and the only post he makes is in relation to a Thread on Echosonic Amps? I shudder at the odds.


Google echosonic27 and you can come to your own conclusions.


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## Echosonic (Aug 23, 2013)

Intrepid said:


> Here's some food for thought. What are the chances of some new member joining our Forum today whose handle is Echosonic and the only post he makes is in relation to a Thread on Echosonic Amps? I shudder at the odds.


Intrepid: I am, in fact, a real person - shudder away at these odds..... :wave: Sorry if it confused you that I didn't start posting in a bunch of different areas right after creating my account.... I still don't see the need. I'm certain this forum spans many topics, but I'm primarily involved with EchoSonic (and other amp) circles. You can easily Google your way to some of my EchoSonic-related posts, as well as some Standel and Rickenbacker amp stuff. On some sites, my photos have been removed. That's because there's a guy out there writing a book about Ray Butts, using some information from the Butts interview he did while working for Vintage guitar magazine... he goes around emailing the forum admins, using his clout as an author, to sway them to remove my content. So please just go thru Google, and you'll soon enough come across lots of info and photos from me, without any censorship. Restore your amps, build yourself one, the sky's the limit !










I am indeed aware of the amp owned by the VanDeCamps, and it is a nice complete example of one of Ray's EchoSonics. These amps are indeed very rare, much more so with the delay board; no one in their right mind would part with one for little money. Even if we don't take cosmetic condition into consideration, they're the only amplifiers in the world to have T H A T S O U N D... that Rockabilly slapback tube-driven tape echo. They're hand-made by a genius, and some unmodified examples are still working problem-free today, after over 50 years. How many electronic devices can have a similar claim? Well actually, a lot of that old tube electronics stuff lasts that long. 


J-75: Thanks for the note! I am in direct contact with many current EchoSonic owners, and stay in touch with many of them. I've heard wonderful stories from some, and not-so-good stories from others. I've also spoken to people who've owned them in the past, or have seen them completely destroyed. Most interesting to me are people's accounts meeting Ray Butts - great stuff! As for my amps, I have complete lineage for at least 1 of my EchoSonics, but as with many who bought EchoSonics, it is not anyone world-famous (although many were very famous, they bought the first half of the amps. Once they became less popular, many of them were purchased by lesser-known artists). As the years roll by, and understandably so, I'm still waiting to hear from Ray's daughter, Katha, as to the details of my 27.


To answer someone else's question here, it's not only collectors who want an EchoSonic...., and not only collectors want to buy old technology. It's common knowledge in audio-related circles that tube audio is most often superior to solid state quality, and thus usually preferred. Most of the time, old technology looks better, lasts longer, and is easier to maintain than the newer stuff. Look at most electric guitars sold today..... it's the same models that came out in the 50's and 60s, for the most part.


Here's to having fun restoring some of the more complicated amplifiers, and helping others with theirs along the way :smilie_flagge17:


Frank


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## Intrepid (Oct 9, 2008)

> Intrepid: I am, in fact, a real person - shudder away at these odds..... Sorry if it bothers you that I didn't start posting a bunch of stuff after creating my account, but I don't feel the need. I'm certain this forum spans many topics, but I'm primarily involved with EchoSonic amps.



I don't doubt you are a real person. Just an incredible coincidence. I own vintage amps and use them. I'm just not into echos for 5k. I'm no Scotty Moore. Have fun with your Echos, they look cool.


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## Echosonic (Aug 23, 2013)

Intrepid said:


> I don't doubt you are a real person. Just an incredible coincidence. I own vintage amps and use them. I'm just not into echos for 5k. I'm no Scotty Moore. Have fun with your Echos, they look cool.



Yeah I know... I just wanted to say Hello! :smilie_flagge17:


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Echosonic said:


> To answer someone else's question here, it's not only collectors who want an EchoSonic...., and not only collectors want to buy old technology.* It's common knowledge in audio-related circles that tube audio is most often superior to solid state quality*, and thus usually preferred. Most of the time, old technology looks better, lasts longer, and is easier to maintain than the newer stuff. Look at most electric guitars sold today..... it's the same models that came out in the 50's and 60s, for the most part.
> 
> 
> Here's to having fun restoring some of the more complicated amplifiers, and helping others with theirs along the way :smilie_flagge17:
> ...


It's common knowledge that is what many think and what is fed to the buyer from the amp marketing people. On another forum this was a common discussion, so one of the mods who is a very good guitar player and demonstrator did a "blind" test. One amp was tube and the competing amp was SS. He put these sound clips up as a "poll" thread and had those who wished to vote which was which. The result? Almost exactly 50% each way, similar to a multiple choice questionnaire. 

For those selling a certain style amp or promoting it, there will undoubtedly be bias. The "blind" test removes all that.

I will concede they are likely better built but they are not better and with all the tones you can get out of one amp these days they are certainly not better. Regards, Steadfastly


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## bluesguitar1972 (Jul 16, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> It's common knowledge that is what many think and what is fed to the buyer from the amp marketing people. On another forum this was a common discussion, so one of the mods who is a very good guitar player and demonstrator did a "blind" test. One amp was tube and the competing amp was SS. He put these sound clips up as a "poll" thread and had those who wished to vote which was which. The result? Almost exactly 50% each way, similar to a multiple choice questionnaire.
> 
> For those selling a certain style amp or promoting it, there will undoubtedly be bias. The "blind" test removes all that.
> 
> I will concede they are likely better built but they are not better and with all the tones you can get out of one amp these days they are certainly not better. Regards, Steadfastly


Just to play Devil's Advocate - Creating a poll on a forum where people are listening to an amp through computer (and frequently laptop) speakers isn't really a great way to really appreciate amp flavour. It also really depends on the tone you're looking for. For some, maybe SS is the way to go. For others, the sounds they're looking for is better achieved through a valve amp. You will not get the same live sound from a line 6 amp that you will from a Fender Twin (etc).


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> It's common knowledge that is what many think and what is fed to the buyer from the amp marketing people. On another forum this was a common discussion, so one of the mods who is a very good guitar player and demonstrator did a "blind" test. One amp was tube and the competing amp was SS. He put these sound clips up as a "poll" thread and had those who wished to vote which was which. The result? Almost exactly 50% each way, similar to a multiple choice questionnaire.
> 
> For those selling a certain style amp or promoting it, there will undoubtedly be bias. The "blind" test removes all that.
> 
> I will concede they are likely better built but they are not better and with all the tones you can get out of one amp these days they are certainly not better. Regards, Steadfastly


Was it a cork sniffers forum? 

I've seen forum posters not be able to tell the difference between a Strat and a Les Paul. In fact, I've seen that sort of failure an awful lot. So, I don't put a lot of stock in the average set of ears. 

I used to be able to tell the difference between real amps and modellers. I could pick the difference for the first few years of amp modellers, 100% of the time. Now, a few knocks on the head later and the incredible improvements they've made and the difference between a real amp and a well-dialed in Kemper is very difficult for me to tell apart, too. I can't say I could do it more than 50% of the time--i.e., I can't, really. Not through my computer speakers, anyway.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Oh, then you want what I have. (just to fan the flames)


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

bluesguitar1972 said:


> Just to play Devil's Advocate - Creating a poll on a forum where people are listening to an amp through computer (and frequently laptop) speakers isn't really a great way to really appreciate amp flavour. It also really depends on the tone you're looking for. For some, maybe SS is the way to go. For others, the sounds they're looking for is better achieved through a valve amp. You will not get the same live sound from a line 6 amp that you will from a Fender Twin (etc).


That is true. That's what I thought when I first saw the poll. However, you were hearing both of them through the same speakers.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Shark said:


> Was it a cork sniffers forum?
> 
> I've seen forum posters not be able to tell the difference between a Strat and a Les Paul. In fact, I've seen that sort of failure an awful lot. So, I don't put a lot of stock in the average set of ears.
> 
> I used to be able to tell the difference between real amps and modellers. I could pick the difference for the first few years of amp modellers, 100% of the time. Now, a few knocks on the head later and the incredible improvements they've made and the difference between a real amp and a well-dialed in Kemper is very difficult for me to tell apart, too. I can't say I could do it more than 50% of the time--i.e., I can't, really. Not through my computer speakers, anyway.


There is no doubt that there are "trained" ears and ears that are less than that. Being a bit of a stereo nut when I was younger, I used to listen to a lot of music and when talking to others about certain pieces, I would hear some things in the piece of music that others didn't because It seems you can train your brain to listen better. I know of other incidents where a trained ear heard things that only an anechoic sound chamber could prove they were correct.

You were obviously one with a "trained ear". There were a number like that on the poll who had to admit they were fooled and prior to the poll, would not have believed they couldn't tell the difference. Kudos to them for their humility and honesty.

As to the older and newer modellers, yes, they have come a long way; from being toys to being very realistic.


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