# Theory!~ Bah, Humbug!



## Lola

Where are all the theory buffs? No one into theory here?


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## bw66

There are a few of us here, but we keep a low profile...


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## Lola

bw66 said:


> There are a few of us here, but we keep a low profile...


Why is that?


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## bw66

Nothing makes guitarists glaze over faster than theory. ;-)


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## Mooh

I love music theory. 

Peace, Mooh.


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## JBFairthorne

For me I learned enough theory to be able to communicate with another musician. Beyond that I never really saw the need. Sure, it's sometimes interesting to understand WHY certain chords work together when you stumble across them, but the important thing is that you can hear that they work together. Now, I mostly learned by ear and I'm a big believer in listening, really listening. It still makes me shake my head when I (still) come across musicians that have absolutely no ear and are either unable or unwilling to listen to what's going on around them beyond what THEY happen to be doing. It seems so basic to me, if you can't/don't hear the big picture as well as all the parts that make it what it is...how can you ever hope to improve or create something that is more than the sum of it's parts? Honestly, as far as theory goes...I like the idea of it, but after about 20 minutes of reading it all starts to become white noise to me. Reading but not really absorbing.


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## Steadfastly

Theory is too much like geometry to me. I understand it is important and someday I may understand it and use it. For now, it's not that important to me.


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## GTmaker

Lola said:


> Where are all the theory buffs? No one into theory here?


hmmmmm....
There is a "theory and technique" section that you just posted in so I know you have seen it...
There are one thousand and 28 threads started on 52 pages.
Thats more theory then I can ever handle in my life time.

Is there something thats missing in the theory department?

G.


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## Guest

GTmaker said:


> Is there something thats missing in the theory department?


the brontosaurus?


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## lovetoplay

I think a certain amount of theory is necessary, as JBFairthorne mentioned, to be able to communicate with other musicians. I have run across some guitar players who don't know what I IV V means. They would have no hope of changing the key of a song to a key that a singer could handle. I think transposing a song to new key is a valuable skill that should guitar players should be able to do on the spot. I think sometimes we know more theory than we realize. Our ear tells us what sounds correct so without knowing we have figured out some theory. I believe it has to work the other way around as well, knowing some theory should tell us what to play and sometimes give us more than one option. We're all different so we all learn in different ways. Part of what, hopefully, makes us all sound unique.


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## fredyfreeloader

When I first started on guitar I knew absolutely nothing, I got a book learned a few chords, then a few more, trouble was I didn't know the why and wherefore of these strange things called chords, so I got another book to explain the things in the first book and on and on it went even today I buy books just because there's more to learn. I have to know why and how everything joins together to make all those different haunting mind numbing sounds.


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## Lola

fredyfreeloader said:


> When I first started on guitar I knew absolutely nothing, I got a book learned a few chords, then a few more, trouble was I didn't know the why and wherefore of these strange things called chords, so I got another book to explain the things in the first book and on and on it went even today I buy books just because there's more to learn. I have to know why and how everything joins together to make all those different haunting mind numbing sounds.


Me to! I do use my ear a lot but I have to know all the parts of the puzzle and why they fit together like they do. It's a part of who I am. I have all the basics under my belt so far. I am curious!


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## JBFairthorne

I got a good theory book for guitar (The Progressive Guitarist, Practical Theory For Guitar by Don Latarski) when I first started playing 22 years ago...and I STILL reference it from time to time (mostly on the toilet, honestly). I understand that people process ideas differently and some may NEED the theory to do what they do. The problem with theory, imo, is it can paint you into a corner if you let it. On more than one occasion, I've played with theory people and as we were working through a progression, they stop and say, those chords are odd, they shouldn't work together...but they do. Now I'm sure there is probably some lesser known reason why they do, but they didn't know it and clearly them not knowing it prevented them from trying it and HEARING that it worked. Understanding the relationships may be important, but so is knowing when to break the rules. Most important though is hearing what sounds good. Does it REALLY matter why it sounds good?


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## Lola

JBFairthorne said:


> I got a good theory book for guitar (The Progressive Guitarist, Practical Theory For Guitar by Don Latarski) when I first started playing 22 years ago...and I STILL reference it from time to time (mostly on the toilet, honestly). Most important though is hearing what sounds good. Does it REALLY matter why it sounds good?


Yes it makes for good reading material! lol In all honesty it's my curiosity as to why things sound good together especially when I am improvising on the fly. I love the sound of adding the major 3rd for example in a blues rendition. It just adds a different flavor to the whole thing.


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## Cartcanuck

I find theory interesting. it fascinates me. 

My issue, making the leap from reading it, understanding it........and then finding a way to apply it. I suck at book learning.......actually, I can learn from books, but applying what I learn is my challenge. I need teaching, instruction for it to work for me. I am hungry for more theory knowledge and application. I simply need the right source and the time


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## ThatGingerMojo

JBFairthorne said:


> I got a good theory book for guitar (The Progressive Guitarist, Practical Theory For Guitar by Don Latarski) when I first started playing 22 years ago...and I STILL reference it from time to time (mostly on the toilet, honestly). I understand that people process ideas differently and some may NEED the theory to do what they do. The problem with theory, imo, is it can paint you into a corner if you let it. On more than one occasion, I've played with theory people and as we were working through a progression, they stop and say, those chords are odd, they shouldn't work together...but they do. Now I'm sure there is probably some lesser known reason why they do, but they didn't know it and clearly them not knowing it prevented them from trying it and HEARING that it worked. Understanding the relationships may be important, but so is knowing when to break the rules. Most important though is hearing what sounds good. Does it REALLY matter why it sounds good?


That sounds a whole lot like I said to you. That Fender sound you have going on makes all kind of unorthodox sound really cool.

- - - Updated - - -

I really enjoy my theory, learning all about what makes melodies and chords sound so great together. Theory is also a great way for people to relay ideas effectively. I wish their was more theory chat on this forum. Never thought to kick start it as I am still relatively new here and I figure the topic has been beat to death.


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## JBFairthorne

ThatGingerMojo said:


> That sounds a whole lot like I said to you. That Fender sound you have going on makes all kind of unorthodox sound really cool.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> I really enjoy my theory, learning all about what makes melodies and chords sound so great together. Theory is also a great way for people to relay ideas effectively. I wish their was more theory chat on this forum. Never thought to kick start it as I am still relatively new here and I figure the topic has been beat to death.


Is that my Bass player chiming in?


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## JeremyP

I think it's mandatory for a band setting. Otherwise how do you communicate the chord progressions , key etc?

The most useless skill is reading sheet music.... My music teacher drilled me when I was a kid to learn every good boy deserves fudge etc..... Not once in my life have I ever used it in a band setting or alone.

I also think some guys use theory talk to make themselves sound smarter then they are to beginners and non musical people haha!


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## Adcandour

I finally read this thread. Even the _word_ 'theory' makes me run the other way.

I play by myself, so I'm not upsetting any one when I take my time over a looped chord progression.

If I'm prepared to read anything, it simply won't be a book on music theory. Too many other things are more interesting to me.


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## Mooh

JeremyP said:


> I think it's mandatory for a band setting. Otherwise how do you communicate the chord progressions , key etc?
> 
> The most useless skill is reading sheet music.... My music teacher drilled me when I was a kid to learn every good boy deserves fudge etc..... Not once in my life have I ever used it in a band setting or alone.
> 
> I also think some guys use theory talk to make themselves sound smarter then they are to beginners and non musical people haha!


"The most useless skill is reading sheet music..." 

I'm sorry you feel that way because reading sheet music allows you to relate to and communicate with singers and players of other instruments way more easily. It makes more sessions and recording dates possible. It gives you access to more styles, and sources of those styles. It shortens the learning curve to other instruments. It increases your understanding of what's going on in the music, especially before you hear the arrangement or have it memorized. Reading music adds a visual element to the music and more parts of your brain that comprehend something the more thoroughly you will know, remember, and reproduce it.

I can say with absolute certainty that if all my current and former bandmates could read music we would prep music as a group way faster and with less hassle. That goes for rock, blues, traditional folk, classical, and church music. No exceptions.

Peace, Mooh.


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## zontar

Theory gets misunderstood--It is not something imposed on music, but rather it comes from the music & how it is played/written, etc.
It is merely something that developed (And develops to a degree) over the years so that there is a standard musicians can sue to play each others' music & communicate.

So learn as much theory as you can, but learn it so you just know it--and when you play--just play--don't think about theory--just play.
But it comes in handy trying to figure things out.
I learned once upon a time what a plagal cadence is--but I don't think about it when I play--although I have played them making stuff up.


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## bw66

zontar said:


> Theory gets misunderstood--It is not something imposed on music, but rather it comes from the music...


Very well put!


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## Steadfastly

JeremyP said:


> I think it's mandatory for a band setting. Otherwise how do you communicate the chord progressions , key etc?
> 
> _*The most useless skill is reading sheet music.*_... My music teacher drilled me when I was a kid to learn every good boy deserves fudge etc..... Not once in my life have I ever used it in a band setting or alone.
> 
> I also think some guys use theory talk to make themselves sound smarter then they are to beginners and non musical people haha!


Wow! That's about all I will say on that.


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## ThatGingerMojo

I really have to agree with JeremyP on the theory issue. If you are playing in a pre-pubescent post pop punk band or a Green Day cover band, than you can go ahead and omit most theory. Sheet music is not required at ll for you guys. However, if you want to play jazz... forget about it if you don't have a strong working knowledge of theory for all the instruments involved int he group. Classical music would be forever off limits if you can't read music.Stick to the punk if you don't want to learn about your chosen instrument, or learn all you can about your instrument as it will be your best friend for life.


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## Steadfastly

ThatGingerMojo said:


> I really have to agree with JeremyP on the theory issue. If you are playing in a pre-pubescent post pop punk band or a Green Day cover band, than you can go ahead and omit most theory. Sheet music is not required at ll for you guys. However, if you want to play jazz... forget about it if you don't have a strong working knowledge of theory for all the instruments involved int he group._* Classical music would be forever off limits if you can't read music.*_Stick to the punk if you don't want to learn about your chosen instrument, or learn all you can about your instrument as it will be your best friend for life.


Not just classical music. What about session guitarists that are asked to do a fill-in and have no idea about the song(s). Without being able to read music they are useless.

Being able to read music, you can pick up any sheet music and play it and if you are any good, you'll play it correctly.


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## fredyfreeloader

The Theory of Evolution: Learn your theory, practice diligently and eventually you may evolve into a good musician maybe even great. THUS the theory of evolution has transpired once more. OK! OK! back to the rubber room again.

:sSig_DOH: :sSig_Idontgetit:


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## thecornman

If you never want to get out and play with other musicans then ya theory is not needed! Or technique and ear training. For myself the goal was always to be able to make music with others. Spending the time and having the drive to learn the theory, technique and training my ear has giving me the chance to reach that goal and made it possible for me to hold my own in any jamming situation. There is nothing worse then playing with people that are clueless and that you have to baby step everything with.


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## JBFairthorne

ThatGingerMojo said:


> I really have to agree with JeremyP on the theory issue. If you are playing in a pre-pubescent post pop punk band or a Green Day cover band, than you can go ahead and omit most theory. Sheet music is not required at ll for you guys. However, if you want to play jazz... forget about it if you don't have a strong working knowledge of theory for all the instruments involved int he group. Classical music would be forever off limits if you can't read music.Stick to the punk if you don't want to learn about your chosen instrument, or learn all you can about your instrument as it will be your best friend for life.


Theory relates to music in general. It teaches you nothing about your instrument. The only thing that teaches you about your instrument is having it in your hands.


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## 4345567

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## ThatGingerMojo

JBFairthorne said:


> Theory relates to music in general. It teaches you nothing about your instrument. The only thing that teaches you about your instrument is having it in your hands.


Having your instrument in your hand is great but, to know what to play on your instrument and how to make that instrument talk to other instruments is impossible without basic language skills that music theory offers. And yes, it is Bass player chiming in. Let the games begin....lol.


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## Steadfastly

nkjanssen said:


> Reading is a useful skill, but not essential. I know plenty of working session guitarists who don't read well or at all. They can handle a chord chart with ease and know their theory well, but reading actual notation? Unless you do big-budget film or television scoring sessions, it's not that common.


While that is true, there are musicians that those kind of players would never get to play with and lose out on session work because of not being able to read music. But if you can read music, you can play just about anything with anyone. In other words, all doors are open.


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## JBFairthorne

ThatGingerMojo said:


> Having your instrument in your hand is great but, to know what to play on your instrument and how to make that instrument talk to other instruments is impossible without basic language skills that music theory offers. And yes, it is Bass player chiming in. Let the games begin....lol.


I think maybe you misunderstood my point. Here's my point in a different way. If someone is a theory superstar, that gives them an understanding of music in general. Useful, yes. However, it doesn't give them the technique to play ANY instrument just because they know the theory. At the end of the day, it's just ink on a page. Music IS sound and touch (except in the case of vocals). This is, by the way, NOT a theory guy bashing comment. I really think theory has it's place. I just think some people put too much emphasis on it.

For example. Theory didn't teach me how to play an A. Theory didn't teach me what an A sounds like. Playing my instrument for countless hours did that. Theory taught me how the A relates to other notes in any given context, but not how to play or hear those other notes.


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## 4345567

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## ThatGingerMojo

Sorry to say it but music theory did teach you to play an A. Somebody must have shown that to you at one point in your life, or a chord chart. All of those pesky chord charts would never exist if somebody did not explore note relations.


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## Guest

[video=youtube;mSnYE_CeqTM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSnYE_CeqTM[/video]


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## jeremy_green

Learning theory was easily one of the best things I ever did for my playing. Helps me every day.


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## dcole

I don't know much theory and it has not hindered me. I barely even know the names of the strings on my guitar. When I played tuba in the high school band, I just copied the trombones. I could never figure out those notes on the paper but I could hear notes and feel the rhythm. I am still like that and have played guitar for 18 years.


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## zontar

laristotle said:


> [video=youtube;mSnYE_CeqTM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSnYE_CeqTM[/video]


I like the video--I've posted it several times on various forums.
But it isn't so much about theory or reading music as it is about the inaccuracy of many song books--they tend to be arrangements made for piano and/or copyright--without the real guitar parts.

But the sketch makes me laugh...


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## Lola

Knowing theory has given me a sense of freedom! The freedom to be able to play whatever! I am not pursuing theory though like I once did. I have the basics and that's good enough for me. It's amazing what your ear can tell you. I am an advocate of intense listening. Listening has never failed me yet. 

I find too, when I watch a video on YT I am to learn by watching intently. It took me one whole week of watching Keith's Wyatt Rock solo to be able to pull it off. I watched him play it a thousand times and then watched covers of the song by others. It's amazing what one will do when they want something bad enough!


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## Mooh

nkjanssen said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm not "anti-reading". Any skill you can add to the toolbox is good. I think you're extremely overstating its importance, though. Someone doesn't suddenly become a great musician by virtue of their ability to sight-read. I have probably a dozen friends and relatives who reached very high levels of Royal Conservatory training on piano. They can sight-read a Chopin piece they've never seen before. Sit them down with other musicians in an unstructured setting, though, and they can't follow along with basic changes or improvise over a I-IV-V.
> 
> In actual practice, it's probably less important for a guitarist to be able to read than just about any other musician. Follow charts? Yes. Sight-read notation? It's almost never called for. Frankly, it would be more valuable for an aspiring professional guitarist to learn electronics and how to work a soldering iron than to read. Learning how to properly tune a drum kit is another skill an aspiring pro guitarist would do well to learn. You'd use it more often than sight-reading.


I hope you're not postulating that their ability to sightread and their inability to improvise are at all related. (You didn't quite say it, but I read similar remarks all the time online.) They can't improvise because they weren't taught to and/or haven't spent any time figuring it out. They are not mutually exclusive by any means. I teach people to do both, I was taught to do both, and I know lots of musicians who can do both and do them well.

Sightreading ability and theory knowledge has got me lots of music jobs from one-off concerts for some artist or another, to church gigs, to musical theatre, to recording sessions, to arranging for bar bands, to teaching at summer music schools/camps, to teaching people to play music with and without sheet music, and is indispensible for writing, communicating, publishing. It helps me relate to musicians in other disciplines and styles regardless of instrument. 

Credit goes to my folks who made sure I was taught the fundamentals very early. I had no choice in the matter, accepted it just as any kid accepts going to school or doing as they're told. I didn't care much about it when I was a teen when I only wanted to rock out (except in my own songwriting, where I used it all the time), but as soon as I was out of school and working/gigging full-time the pay off was immediate. 

The music world is a big place and if we want to sample the whole thing we need all the communication tools possible.

Peace, Mooh.


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## 4345567

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## Mooh

nkjanssen said:


> No, I was responding to Steadly's statement that anyone who can sightread can "play anything and play with anyone". My point was that knowing someone can read music tells you absolutely nothing about how well they can play with others. There's not an inverse correlation; there's no correlation. On the other hand, I find knowing theory very valuable in playing with others.


Understood.

Peace, Mooh.


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## gtrchris

Theory is important as it helps make sense in the musicians' mind of very complex relationships, but equally of importance is its application and practice whether in the craft of composition, notation of musical ideas, or the art of improvisation etc. The ear hears all of it, but its the mind that can understand, organize, interpret and create.


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