# High Dollar Guitars.



## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

I'm probably going to get flamed here....
Mods Feel free to lock this thread if it's been talked to death

What's the deal with $1000.00 & Up guitars?

I've never paid 2K for a vehicle let alone a guitar. (I'm a licensed Mechanic. I buy very low, fix then drive)

Maybe it's the guys I took the most inspiration from when I was learning to play, Both play low dollar guitars. 
Jeff Healey's Squire strat & Kim Mitchell's Blue Parts-caster. 
I think that got it into my head a great guitar, isn't necessarily a big dollar, brand name guitar

Is it a "Designer Label" thing?
Do you really think it plays better?

From my 29 years of playing, a 9.5" radius feels the same on a Squier, and a Fender.
A 12" radius feels the same on an Ibanez/Gibson/Shecter/etc, etc, etc.

Pickups can be manipulated, and pots/switchs changed in and out so fast it make my head spin.

I guess I've always been function over flash kinda guy. 

I've spent many many hours in guitar shops, trying MIK,MIM, Indonesian, & American Strats... and honestly there are times when I can't tell the difference. Unless the Indonesian or Korean guitars have fret issues, I can't feel a difference in playing

Same applies to Gibson's stuff, until you go to their BOlt on neck stuff by epiphone, really harsh guitars there.


My personal favorite brand right now is Squier
I can make them into anything I want.
For 250.00 I can get the standard series tele or strat, and mod it to the nines, set it up with feeler gauges and touch up the frets and nut, and it's a damn fine guitar.


[video=youtube;9IaHL8Siwp0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9IaHL8Siwp0[/video]


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

anything you put that much effort into will show a marked improvement, i suspect. that said, at the end of the day, a guitar is wood, steel and plastic. afaik none of them contain magic pixie dust. for the most part i agree with you. certainly i have owned modded korean guitars that played as well, and had tone equal to guitars that were more than triple the price. i don't believe in the tone wood myth and i never did. however, comparing them off the shelf is another matter. i used to own a black mexi strat. it was an ok guitar. right now i have an american standard. it's far and away a more enjoyable instrument than the mexi was. i _coulda_ did pots and caps, better pick ups, bridge maybe a graphtech nut, sanded the finish off the back of the neck, and all the other little doo dads you'd do to a guitar to improve it. when i was done it would have been a much better player than it was. (and it wasn't bad to start with) but after you get through with it all, you've made an investment in that guitar that is easily higher than what i paid for it. (used) then add in what my labor is worth. what you end up with is a real nice player that has the same resale as the guy who left his bone stock. fine if you're never going to sell it, and like doing all that work. the standard i have now will sell about where i paid for it, long as i don't mess it up, it came right from the store needing zero mods. once you get past $800-$1000 any differences SHOULD BE cosmetic. if not, somethings wrong


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Some people prefer a fine wine, others two buck chuck. Some drive a Mercedes, others something just to get around. Some wear a Rolex, others a Timex. Some play a custom shop strat, others a Squier. If you can't sense or appreciate the difference then the Squier is right for you. There is no right and wrong, it's whatever floats your boat. I think it's great that players have such great options to chose from these days.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

It depends on what you value. I value the feel of the instrument, especially a nice neckthru body. The Parker Fly to me has the best feel of any guitar out there. Its weight only adds to that feel. Where can you buy a cheap guitar to match the feel of a Fly? No where. And you do get what you pay for, that carbon fibre doesnt make itself, it takes alot of labour and materials costs. As for flash, I dont think anybody buys a Fly for its looks.......


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

This video compares Telecaster Range - Squier Classic Vibe, Fender Mexican Standard, Fender American Standard, Fender Custom Shop - in other words...It compares 

Chinese vs Mexican Vs American versions of the same guitar...BLINDFOLDED...by FEEL and PLAYABILITY...

[video=youtube;QCEdT2d43jU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCEdT2d43jU[/video]


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

As always, I say, play what you love. I tend to think there is a sweet spot for value right around the $1000 area ($700- $1200 or so). That being said, there are always exceptions. There are a lot of sub $500 guitars (Squiers in particular) out there that are just fantastic for the money you pay for them. I always try to remember that when Leo designed the tele and strat that he wanted to make a mass produced, affordable instrument. Paying huge dollars for one kind of defeats that spirit. But if a $2400 CS Strat is what you love, go for it! Of course it takes a bit more money to get into anything with a carved top or set neck because of the labour involved. They are built using more traditional methods and you pay for that. Not saying they are better or worse, just different. It all comes down to personal taste, and that is never wrong.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

I'm a believer that American made should be a better guitar in how it is put together, looks, sounds and resale value. I own a Fender American Standard Telecaster, American Standard Stratocaster, a American Special Stratocaster(the cheapest guitar I've ever bought new at 699.99), and two Les Pauls, a Studio and a Traditional. All my guitars but the one were over 1000 dollars and I bought them all new but I don't feel they were overly expensive. I also own a Squier Affinity Strat, my first guitar. It too looks to be built well, it looks good but it doesn't play or sound anywhere near as good as my other two Fender Strats. I feel there is a certain level of pride in owning American made guitars, its not so much they are better, its just that they have a mystic about them. If I ever did find a cheap offshore built guitar that I really liked I wouldn't turn my nose up on it. If it sounded good and looked to be well built I would buy it.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

dradlin said:


> Some people prefer a fine wine, others two buck chuck. Some drive a Mercedes, others something just to get around. Some wear a Rolex, others a Timex. Some play a custom shop strat, others a Squier. If you can't sense or appreciate the difference then the Squier is right for you. There is no right and wrong, it's whatever floats your boat. I think it's great that players have such great options to chose from these days.


+1 This pretty much sums it all up.


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

Guitar companies will sell their products for the maximum amount the consumer will pay. Once there is a healthy demand, the basic laws of economics dictate a high mark up. It's all part of a juvenile game of having a pricier instrument than the other guy, which is promoted by the manufacturers. The sad truth is that the law of diminishing returns kicks in. You get a lot more for $200 when you go from 4-6 hundred than from 14-16 hundred. 

The choice is yours. either get caught up in it and buy something that may impress a _few_ people, or save money and rely on a basic well built instrument that feels and sounds good. An experienced competent player can make even a cheap budget guitar sound great, while a poor player sounds terrible even on the best limited edition custom made gold plated presentation guitar.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I've often wondered what would happen if you went into a guitar store blindfolded and got them to hand you guitar after guitar without seeing them until you found THE ONE that felt and sounded best to you. 

To me, a squire "feels" cheap and almost toy-like even though the necks are just fine for playing after proper setup. Could be the lightness of the body that throws me off. My "go to" Strat is a highway 1. I've never seen any love on here for a highway 1 but it works for me. I own a mexi-strat and several parts casters but they doesn't feel as nice to play. To me it's all about what works for YOU. It's got to flow. That feeling when the guitar plays it's self and you're just along to guide it. 
You can put decent pickups in anything and end with decent sound. IMHO


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## noman (Jul 24, 2006)

There is a difference if you look for it. I own both cheap Squiers and partscasters and a few Custom shop and boutique strats. I like them all but everyone who has played my Jeff Senn admits it's a spectacular guitar that plays, sounds, and feels better than my CV Squiers. A lot of us (me included) try to justify that a cheaper guitar is as good as the more expensive version but if you look at the combination of parts, there is a difference. That said, if I only had one Squier CV strat, I'd be ok with that!!


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## grumpyoldman (Jan 31, 2010)

djmarcelca said:


> What's the deal with $1000.00 & Up guitars?
> 
> I've never paid 2K for a vehicle let alone a guitar. (I'm a licensed Mechanic. I buy very low, fix then drive)


Just to set a fair reference point for this, let's say I bought a vehicle for 2K, and took it to you as the mechanic to fix it for me to drive it. How much would those repairs cost? Are we still talking about a 2K vehicle, or would that number jump substantially?

Same with some guitars - buy low, add higher quality components and increase its value, or possibly its "playability" or sound...The price to make it "better" has now added to the overall cost. Add to that the need for some (not all) of us to take the instrument to a repair person to have those upgrades done, and to some extent that overall cost it going to go up...

Things to consider....

John
thegrumpyoldman


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

dradlin said:


> Some people prefer a fine wine, others two buck chuck. Some drive a Mercedes, others something just to get around. Some wear a Rolex, others a Timex. Some play a custom shop strat, others a Squier. If you can't sense or appreciate the difference then the Squier is right for you. There is no right and wrong, it's whatever floats your boat. I think it's great that players have such great options to chose from these days.


well said....

plus....
I saw the story of Kim Mitchell's "blue" on Guitar Pics and the electronics and pickups come from a 60's Gibson ES 335.
Body and neck were bought later and the guitar was put together by his tech. Yes the guitar is strange BUT I see nothing cheap about it.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

To each his own. I've had cheap entry level guitars I miss and wish I hadn't sold, I also currently own $1000+ guitars that I love to play and think they are worth every penny. My next purchase will be a higher end brand name, slightly different than most on the market and I know that not only will I pay a premium but I'll be happy to do it. To me the way a guitar looks is just as important as the way it sounds. I love being in the brand name, slightly odd/different, only a few exist kinda club and if I had more time and expendable income I'd get a warehouse to fill with em. It might be juvenile or a bit of a cork sniffer but I know I like nice things. To each his own.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

A simple search would show that yes, this has been asked (and answered).

To each their own. If you can't justify the $2000 price tag (or more), don't buy the guitar: it's that simple. My main player is a guitar that cost me $2K and the guy before me probably north of 3K. It's worth it to me, and that's all that matters.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Do you need to spend more than a thousand to get a great guitar?

In my opinion, no.

Is there value in spending more? Not necessarily to a beginner or even intermediate level player, but diminishing returns notwithstanding, yes, you can get a better guitar by throwing more money at it.

I have always been a "build your own / buy used / $1500 max" sort of guy.

Next week I'll pony up for a vintage Gibbie. It will cost more but it has special significance to me personally and I can afford it so I'll pay what I must.

Everything is worth what someone is willing to pay for it (yes, I know, thank you Captain Obvious).


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

Buying a new made in China 250.00 guitar will always be a 250.00 guitar, buying a highend guitar for 2 grand could someday be worth much more, and they just hold there value better, do you ever loose money on a Gibson you have had for 30 yrs


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

I have always assumed that you get what you pay for but not necessarily so with guitars. I also have always expected to be in the $500 - $1500 range when pricing instruments I would like to own. As noted in my NGD thread, I recently purchased what I expected to be a junker guitar to stand in for my expensive Gibsons on casual outings. Instead, I ended up with a fine instrument after pickup mods, that I would be completely happy with if it was my only guitar. So $3500 vs. $500 (after mods) - different for sure, but both are equally excellent guitars IMHO.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

My most often reached for guitar continues to be a parts guitar I built. 

As I recall the parts cost less than a grand, maybe around $850. 

Jackson body and neck (from separate eBay sellers) Gotoh FR, Schaller heads, EMG guts. It just seemed to _fall _together. Even though the neck never really lined up straight it plays unbelievably well, stays in tune beyond anything else I have ever owned and has a wide variety of tones.
It's hum sing hum with taps on the humbuckers.

It's just a solid stable guitar, for under a grand.

So yeah, you can get a lot for a little, but I have played a few guitars I would happily pay $4~5k for.


They're out there


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

I don't like paying more than I could turn around and sell it for. That's my gauge. 

In terms of $1000+ guitars, Ernie ball's line has shown me that there is quality out there. Finally, I will humbly add that as you become a better player, you will appreciate the fine touches of a high end instrument. That said, you can also uncover gems in the low category as well. In particular the squire custom tele II P90 could easily pass in a blind test as a $1000 guitar (with a pro setup). 

My new thing is economical guitar that look good and change the pickups and your laughing. !!!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Marketing costs a lot of money and is used to convince people that their product is the best and is worth the money. 

Many people believe the hype. If they didn't, there wouldn't be any high-priced guitars or high-priced just about anything. There would also be a lot less advertising companies. 

I would be fine with that.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Buying used, $1000-1500 will get you a top notch guitar.

New, I picked up a Reverend for just under a grand, with a case and shipped.
I'd put that up against anything else that I've played, it's great, out of the box,
nothing to even be changed out, good to go.

That can be one difference, for me.
Most of the higher end guitars that I've tried, need nothing.
No pickup swaps, hardware change, or even fret end dressing needed.

It's a premium for the labor for a guitar made over here too, it just cost more to build.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> Marketing costs a lot of money and is used to convince people that their product is the best and is worth the money.
> 
> Many people believe the hype. If they didn't, there wouldn't be any high-priced guitars or high-priced just about anything. There would also be a lot less advertising companies.
> 
> I would be fine with that.


Incorrect. Guitar companies make their profit on the budget models. If a guitar cost $200, it cost them $20. The higher end guitars dont have much mark up at all, and they sell very few of them in comparison. Advertising is used for the brand as a whole and not to sell the high end, but to get people to buy their low end because it has the same name on it as the guitars the stars are playing in the ads. There is a reason why custom shop guitars are made in few numbers. If there was real profit in them, they wouldnt bother with the low end at all..........


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Accepts2 is quite right. Fender makes more money selling squire and MIM stuff then custom shop models.

As for me..a good Exemple..the Les Paul style was always my favorite..i bought countless models...brands..and Country of origin..from Japan to USA..THEN...THEN...i hit the mother load....Gibson Historic 1959 reissue...MY GOD....it was like a revelation...everything about it was what i had been expecting from a LP....the feel, the tone, etc etc. It was'nt a question of it been worth 5000$ or 200$....it was THE guitar basically. 

I'm not a Mechanic..but even if i was...buying a 2000$ to then spend time and money to keep it running is not logical in anyway for me...but to each his own


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

I thought this was going to be about guitars that are more than 3'000 or 4'000 dollars. LOL.

If you can't tell the difference between a cheapo guitar and a well made, well setup guitar, then I agree, don't spend the extra cash.


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## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

LydianGuitars said:


> I thought this was going to be about guitars that are more than 3'000 or 4'000 dollars. LOL.


Me too.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I was just speaking from my experience, I've not bought much considered "high end" new.

I agree though, the sky is the limit, as far as high end.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Accept2 said:


> Advertising is used for the brand as a whole and not to sell the high end, but to get people to buy their low end because it has the same name on it as the guitars the stars are playing in the ads.


And who does all the advertising and marketing? The big boys. That costs megabucks. The high end guitars pay for some of this. The middle of the line-up pays for most of this because they sell lots of them and the margin of profit is very high. There is not a lot of difference in the cost of a low budget guitar and the middle of the line. Unless you've been in a company that has these products, people don't realize this. 

There is not a lot of parts on a guitar and since these companies get them in huge quantities the price for bridges, controls, pickups, tuners, etc is peanuts. 

As I posted earlier, if marketing didn't work, companies wouldn't use it and advertising companies wouldn't exist.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

Diminishing returns, the extra you spend gets you less and less extra. 

Most everyone has a saw off point, how much you are willing/able to spend v what you really want.

And most everyone is at a different point in their playing - do you gig, go to jams, play at church, play at home, etc. Also, what is your experience with different guitars, what are you looking for?

I own 3 what I consider high end guitars (Gibsons) and 1 lower priced guitar (Am Std Strat). I've bought cheaper guitars that I thought were quite good for the $. They were, but turned out they did nothing for me. The last one I gave to a buddy that is trying to learn to play.

There are tons of good, inexpensive guitars out there today. A setup, maybe a hardware change, and they can be fine playing instruments. But, in my limited experience, you aren't going to get a great guitar without dropping the $. 

My Strat was $500 used. I've changed the pickups etc. It's a really good guitar. But it doesn't give me the same satisfaction that I get from playing my Gibsons. And, for me, it's all about the interaction I have with the instrument. 

So, IMO yes, expensive guitars can be worth it, but it's all about you. Oh, and what is expensive for me may be different for you. A lot of guys can spend a lot more than I can on a guitar, and I've hit my limit on my little collection.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Many of the high end guitars on the market today are replicas of certain vintage axes. Even w/ the recent drop in the market, those "holy grail" vintage guitars are still unaffordable for 99% of players. Enter the historically-accurate reissues. They're great guitars & have the reputation of being pretty darn close at a fraction of the price. I've never even seen a 1959 Les Paul in real life, let alone thought of owning one, so to my mind an R9 is a reasonable compromise. I agree w/ al3d's comments about R9s vs. other less costly Les Pauls. Are they 2 or 3 times better than a USA Std? No. The law of diminishing return definitely applies. But there is a difference & many ppl are willing to pay it.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

All good points, it is all in taste and that is individual. If you can afford it, get the best tool you can justify (but you only need to justify it to yourself) for the job. If it takes $3500 to do that, then go for it. With care, you will probably get most of it (depending on the circumstances) back if you decide to sell. Though with that kind of money, you ought to be pretty sure before hand.
I have heard of buying as an investment, but that always rubbed me a bit wrong. Sounds like someone is going to hide it away. It's a guitar, it's made to make sounds and be played. Personally, I would be frightened to death of carrying around a $2k axe, but folks do it all the time. Some of them even live on the road (in multiples even). Now there is a place you need a good reliable instrument that you have bonded with.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Roryfan said:


> Many of the high end guitars on the market today are replicas of certain vintage axes. Even w/ the recent drop in the market, those "holy grail" vintage guitars are still unaffordable for 99% of players. Enter the historically-accurate reissues. They're great guitars & have the reputation of being pretty darn close at a fraction of the price. I've never even seen a 1959 Les Paul in real life, let alone thought of owning one, so to my mind an R9 is a reasonable compromise. I agree w/ al3d's comments about R9s vs. other less costly Les Pauls. Are they 2 or 3 times better than a USA Std? No. The law of diminishing return definitely applies. But there is a difference & many ppl are willing to pay it.


I'm sure you're right.

It. comes down to what you can afford and what you want.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Milkman said:


> It. comes down to what you can afford and what you want.


Exactly!....


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Milkman said:


> My most often reached for guitar continues to be a parts guitar I built.
> 
> As I recall the parts cost less than a grand, maybe around $850.
> 
> ...


so you're $850 in parts. What's the time you spent assembling/tweaking and what is your labor worth to you? It's suddenly a little more expensive I'd imagine.


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## xbolt (Jan 1, 2008)

I like all guitars, for most purposes any guitar will do, but I do like pretty & high quality stuff. 
Cost is another story.
On another topic, I think that Blue has an old Lasido neck...I have a coulpe of mutts I built with Lasido necks with Ebony fretboards...Nice necks that feel a lot like the later Godin Artisan necks.


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## Hammertone (Feb 3, 2006)

djmarcelca said:


> What's the deal with $1000.00 & Up guitars?...
> .... a great guitar, isn't necessarily a big dollar, brand name guitar ...
> ... Is it a "Designer Label" thing? ... Do you really think it plays better? ...
> ....I can't feel a difference in playing ... Same applies to Gibson's stuff...
> ...


You're a lucky guy. If Squier offered a tele or strat with a 1.75" nut width and 1" front to back neck depth, I'm sure I'd own one or two.


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## GUInessTARS (Dec 28, 2007)

The point I would like to bring up is that of value versus cost. The issue some have is that they don’t see great deal of difference in the manufacturing cost between a low end Agile and a custom shop Gibson. At least not enough of a difference to justify the imbalance in retail price. I would submit that true value is not solely defined by the cost of the parts or the cost to assemble and produce an item.
As an example; I could go to the hardware store and purchase some paint and a piece of canvas and paint a picture of a woman in front of a nice background, using the design and pattern of Leo DaVinci’s Mona Lisa. The cost to produce mine would be roughly the same as the original, but if you could have either one, which would you choose? Most likely the more valuable one, even if mine was very similar, or even identical, in appearance. Clearly, _value_ has little to do with production cost.
Value is defined by what the market is willing to pay for something, not the manufacturing cost. Value also includes an acknowledgement of originality. Many of us are capable of playing songs by the Rolling Stones, Eagles, or any other famous band. But the high dollar ticket will always go to the originals, regardless of the skill of the reproduction.
Value also reflects an appreciation of the future significance and worth of an item. A Gibson Les Paul from the late ‘50’s is more valuable than the wood and wire it is made from, and probably always will be. A new Squire, Epiphone or Agile? I’m not so sure. They are good playable instruments and I have owned and enjoyed all of them.
I also find it significant that none of the forum members who own higher-end instruments ever seem to feel the need to engage in this particular discussion. I guess when you get it, you get it. 
I am a long winded SOB at times.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

GUInessTARS said:


> I also find it significant that none of the forum members who own higher-end instruments ever seem to feel the need to engage in this particular discussion. I guess when you get it, you get it.


+1

Several of my friends own boutique & vintage (i.e. 50s Les Pauls & pre-CBS Fenders, a.k.a. the real versions of the reissues that I have) guitars, so I had to chuckle when I saw that the bar for high-end gear was set at $1000. While certainly nice guitars & an upgrade over their Chinese counterparts, I'd never view an Am Std Strat or a Les Paul Studio as an elite instrument. They're good bang for the buck, generally well-made & you can take straight them from the store to a gig. 

Although I run the risk of being labelled a cork sniffer, if you've actually played a Suhr, Senn, Gustavsson, Underwood etc., you'll quickly realize that there is a difference. Whether or not you want to pay for it is another story. That's fine if you can't/won't, but please quit bashing those who do (I thought that a guitar forum was a place to drool over nice guitars, not defend their existence). A better tactic might be to be nice to those folks. You just might be surprised by an invitation to visit them & spend an afternoon trying out some of their gear.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Budda said:


> so you're $850 in parts. What's the time you spent assembling/tweaking and what is your labor worth to you? It's suddenly a little more expensive I'd imagine.


Oh a few hours, say four by the time it was set up. Meh, it's like calculating the cost of the sweat equity you put into your home.

It's a labor of love for me.

What would your hourly rate be if you included all the time learning your parts, rehearsing, driving to the show, setting up, sound check, the show et cetera, et cetera.

You'd definitely be below minimum wage in most cases.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

djmarcelca said:


> I'm probably going to get flamed here....
> Mods Feel free to lock this thread if it's been talked to death
> 
> What's the deal with $1000.00 & Up guitars?
> ...


As a mechanic, do you own Snap-on or Jobmate tools?


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

ah, the eternal question, that is often asked but there is no universal truth

IMO play whatever inspires you


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## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

Don't know if this has been covered, but those who choose the "parts" route are limiting themselves to the sound and playability of bolt-on designs. That removes the experience of playing Gibby ES's or Gretsch's, and we all know how the blues loves 335's, and jazz loves fat arch tops, and Gretsch pretty much owns rockabilly.
Of course a parts solid can sound very impressive in capable hands within any domain, but there are those purists out there who insist on a particular authentic, "reissued" sound.
It pretty much comes down to whether players wish to sound like an artist they admire, or they are content just sounding like themselves.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Roryfan said:


> +1
> 
> I'd never view an Am Std Strat or a Les Paul Studio as an elite instrument. They're good bang for the buck, generally well-made & you can take straight them from the store to a gig.


I agree. I consider them more as a great starter guitar and not really that expensive but far from being a elite guitar. My Les Paul Traditional is a sweet guitar but its far from being in the elite class.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

Diablo said:


> As a mechanic, do you own Snap-on or Jobmate tools?


Actually, I own Mastercraft, & Grey Tools with Cambell hausfeld air tools Housed in a Snap-on toolbox.
Snap on toolboxes are the only thing in their catalogue that is worth the money they charge. 400.00 for box wrenches? 600.00 for an impact gun? 
No way. I only purchase the specialty tools that are not available elsewhere from snap on. Otherwise I'd be working to pay my truck account off instead of my personal bills.

I should clear some stuff up that people have said in the five pages of comments:
I'm not a beginner, I've been playing guitar for 29 years. I've played em all just like everyone else the expensive ones and the cheap ones.

I never said "High End" guitar - I said 1000.00+ guitars - price does not equate quality to me.
Skill level.....
The price of a guitar does not denote skill level.

I actually purchased a very inexpensive guitar last week, and it was terrible, but I bought it to learn how to re-fret
I spent time removing frets, leveling, radiusing, and finally installing new frets on this plywood body guitar. 
Now the neck is incredible. the action is a very low 1.4mm above the new frets. satin finish on the back, and plays fast.
Still has a plywood body
Still has the ceramic humbucker.

I wonder, how many people anywhere, not just on this forum could now tell me if that neck was a 80.00 guitar neck or off a 1000.00 guitar if i took it back off the guitar ans sanded all labeling and part/serial numbers off.

To go back to your snap-on vs jobmate comparison.....
does not apply here

99% of people can tell poor quality metal vs good quality metal, it's very obvious.
NO-one can tell the difference between 2 pieces of Maple.
Wood will always look and feel like wood. 
I can cut it, shape it to any set of measurements and it will still be wood.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Hammertone said:


> You're a lucky guy. If Squier offered a tele or strat with a 1.75" nut width and 1" front to back neck depth, I'm sure I'd own one or two.


I totally agree. I don't understand why they don't offer one. They must be missing out on a decent market as not all of us have small hands that fit 1 5/8" wide necks.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

djmarcelca said:


> 99% of people can tell poor quality metal vs good quality metal, it's very obvious.
> _*NO-one can tell the difference between 2 pieces of Maple.*_
> Wood will always look and feel like wood.
> I can cut it, shape it to any set of measurements and it will still be wood.


I'm glad to see you clear up this very poor comparison.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

djmarcelca said:


> Actually, I own Mastercraft, & Grey Tools with Cambell hausfeld air tools Housed in a Snap-on toolbox.
> Snap on toolboxes are the only thing in their catalogue that is worth the money they charge. 400.00 for box wrenches? 600.00 for an impact gun?
> No way. I only purchase the specialty tools that are not available elsewhere from snap on. Otherwise I'd be working to pay my truck account off instead of my personal bills.
> 
> ...


Re bolded, hmmmmmm......sigiifa

its not always about the materials, but the workmanship.

We could all buy mastercraft and grey tools, and a $1000. car, and it would be cheaper than buying a new car every 8 years, but without the skills involved to maintain it, we wouldn't get much enjoyment out of it.

to take this debate to any even more absurd level, why buy a guitar at all? You could buy a cheap maple blank for maybe $20 add a cigar box and a pickup and $0.90 of wire and solder and make your own, since all that matters is the materials?

face it, it's an arbitrary line for diminishing returns....you just draw it in a different place than someone else might.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

djmarcelca said:


> 99% of people can tell poor quality metal vs good quality metal, it's very obvious.
> NO-one can tell the difference between 2 pieces of Maple.
> Wood will always look and feel like wood.
> I can cut it, shape it to any set of measurements and it will still be wood.


Actually, a lot of people can tell the difference in maple species. Different maples can differ in colour, grain and density. Same thing for Mahogany. Its also where the wood came from, especially endagered woods. Different woods have different properties.... not to say that one is better than another but certain woods do have better suited applications to them. 

A higher grade guitar will have selected woods, better humidity levels before cutting the wood, better joining techniques. Its the things you don't necessarily see, the things under the hood, the workmanship.

There's there's the hardware, pickups, tuners, nut, electronics, bridge etc.

Then, there's where the guitar was made. I value the fact that the stuff I buy isn't made in a sweat shop.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

J-75 said:


> Don't know if this has been covered, but those who choose the "parts" route are limiting themselves to the sound and playability of bolt-on designs.


And by the same argument, those playing Gibson and Gretsch are limiting themselves from Strat and Tele tones. All mention designs have made historical impact and no one greater than the other.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

interesting discussion, and some excellent comments and perspectives. 

I must say, that for me, sometimes it matters, sometimes not. I can tell the difference in woods and how the different components affect the tone of the guitar. That doesn't mean I can't find an inexpensive guitar that I don't like, just not as easily. 

I feel the same way about guitars as I do about cars. I am one of those that can feel, appreciate and enjoy the difference between a 30K car and a 50+K car (I don't enjoy driving anything under 20K that I have tried) - that does not mean that I like all expensive vehicles, some I have tried I like less than my old 82 Chevy beater . Still, the difference between my Honda Accord, which is a fantastic vehicle and better than most much more expensive cars IMO, and an Acura TL (sort of a high end Accord) would be subtle and irrelevant to most drivers - not for me, I like the Accord, but I love driving the TL. 

Now I just need to get my wife to buy into that. :banana:


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)




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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

A while ago I met a guy who was into Squier Strats in a big way. His guitar room was littered w/ parts, notably orphaned bodies. I thought this was kind of odd, but apparently the frets are of such poor quality that he wears them down rather quickly. So he just buys another guitar & puts the new neck on whatever body he likes, it's actually cheaper than a pro refret.

Economics are often an argument against upgrading lower end guitars. If you buy some of the parts new & have to pay someone to do the work (bench rates in the GTA are anywhere from $50-85/hour), it's pretty easy to sink $500+ into a MIM Strat (pickups, pots, cap, switch, trem block & saddles, tuners etc.). Now you've spent as much $ as a gently used Am Std. The U.S. guitar will hold its' value, whereas you'll be lucky to recoup a fraction of the cost of the upgrades should you ever sell the MIM.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

LydianGuitars said:


> Actually, a lot of people can tell the difference in maple species. Different maples can differ in colour, grain and density. Same thing for Mahogany. Its also where the wood came from, especially endagered woods. Different woods have different properties.... not to say that one is better than another but certain woods do have better suited applications to them.
> 
> A higher grade guitar will have selected woods, better humidity levels before cutting the wood, better joining techniques. Its the things you don't necessarily see, the things under the hood, the workmanship.
> 
> ...


Obviously, marketing works.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

bluesmostly said:


> I feel the same way about guitars as I do about cars. I am one of those that can feel, appreciate and enjoy the difference between a 30K car and a 50+K car (I don't enjoy driving anything under 20K that I have tried) - that does not mean that I like all expensive vehicles, some I have tried I like less than my old 82 Chevy beater . Still, the difference between my Honda Accord, which is a fantastic vehicle and better than most much more expensive cars IMO, and an Acura TL (sort of a high end Accord) would be subtle and irrelevant to most drivers - not for me, I like the Accord, but I love driving the TL.


OOO man...

Everything that makes a car, is Identical in those 2 models.
Frame
Engine
Transmission
Computers
Electrical harness
I've repaired Acuras by ordering Honda parts..... Not because they cross over and will fit, but because they are exactly the same car.
Same with Nissan/INfinity, Toyota/Lexus

There are very few differences within the main fleet. There are brand-specific cars that don't apply

Same as Cadillac Escalades & Yukons/Suburbans/Avalanche. Same truck, minor differences.
Change the interior, jack the price up 35K.
Completely and totally not worth the paint that's on the body. 

But this isn't canadian car forums.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I have a buddy with a 335 that is worth over $4k (around a '71 I think). I noodled on it a bit, and I have to admit, the guitar would be wasted on me. Much more of a guitar than I am a player. I can't seem to feel the strings, is there any such thing as being too smooth and silky? Perhaps it is just my clunky playing that precludes me from appreciating high end instruments.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I can't seem to feel the strings, is there any such thing as being too smooth and silky? Perhaps it is just my clunky playing that precludes me from appreciating high end instruments.


That sounds like more of a string gauge/height issue.
Probably has lighter strings and/or lower action than you are used to or prefer .


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

djmarcelca said:


> OOO man...
> 
> Same as Cadillac Escalades & Yukons/Suburbans/Avalanche.* Same truck, minor differences.
> Change the interior, jack the price up 35K.*
> ...


That's not a whole lot different than most high priced guitars. 

There are some custom guitars that have a lot of labour in them but often they are very similar to CNC produced ones with minor differences............except the price.


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## Howi (Feb 3, 2009)

I started out like you, picking up cheap guitars, LP look a likes, Strat copies, then mod them.

But it didn't take me long to realize this is not a fun route to go - by fun I mean the weight of my wallet.

I learned that parts are expensive. For example, I can pick up a Mexie or even a Squier, and easily put in the price you'd pay for a used Am Standard, except I just don't feel it, because $40 here, $25 there, try some pickups for $75, then something else for $125. In the end, I have a strat that rivals an Am Standard in sound and feel, except it's still worth $150 on the market.

Now, I buy exclusively big names and popular models. I won't hesitate to drop $2k on a LP Custom because I know that after my honeymoon period and had my fun with it, or if I ever needed cash, it's gone in a week and I won't lose a dime. 

Because of this, I've experienced quite a bit of high end guitars, many over $1k, and have a lot of fun during the process. The wife is also totally cool with it because she knows I'm now smart with my money, and there no longer is a mess in my room filled with dirty used guitar parts and tools.


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## Howi (Feb 3, 2009)

Roryfan said:


> A while ago I met a guy who was into Squier Strats in a big way. His guitar room was littered w/ parts, notably orphaned bodies. I thought this was kind of odd, but apparently the frets are of such poor quality that he wears them down rather quickly. So he just buys another guitar & puts the new neck on whatever body he likes, it's actually cheaper than a pro refret.
> 
> Economics are often an argument against upgrading lower end guitars. If you buy some of the parts new & have to pay someone to do the work (bench rates in the GTA are anywhere from $50-85/hour), it's pretty easy to sink $500+ into a MIM Strat (pickups, pots, cap, switch, trem block & saddles, tuners etc.). Now you've spent as much $ as a gently used Am Std. The U.S. guitar will hold its' value, whereas you'll be lucky to recoup a fraction of the cost of the upgrades should you ever sell the MIM.


Exactly my point.


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## buzzy (May 28, 2011)

Jeff Healey's Squier was made in Japan, I believe.

I have no issue with elite guitars; I'm just waiting for the piggy bank to get a bit heavier before I pull the trigger.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

buzzy said:


> Jeff Healey's Squier was made in Japan, I believe.
> 
> I have no issue with elite guitars; I'm just waiting for the piggy bank to get a bit heavier before I pull the trigger.


With some upgrades, like Evans pickups. The later Japanese Fenders were very nice .


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Howi said:


> I started out like you, picking up cheap guitars, LP look a likes, Strat copies, then mod them.
> 
> But it didn't take me long to realize this is not a fun route to go - by fun I mean the weight of my wallet.
> 
> ...


True dat. I've taken a pretty good bath on more than one partscaster or upgraded Epiphone, but buying/trading gently used higher end gear has allowed me to experience close to 100 guitars in the past 5 years. IME G&L, Heritage, Hamer, PRS etc. make excellent guitars, but they can be hard to move & do not hold their value on the used market at all, whereas I've always broken even +/- $300 on a USA or Custom Shop Fender or Gibson.


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## Howi (Feb 3, 2009)

Roryfan said:


> True dat. I've taken a good bath on more than one partscaster or upgraded Epiphone but buying gently used/trading higher end gear has allowed me to experience close to 100 guitars in the past 5 years. IME G&L, Heritage, Hamer, PRS etc. make excellent guitars, but they can be hard to move & do not hold their value on the used market at all, whereas I've always broken even +/- $300 on a USA or Custom Shop Fender or Gibson.


I agree Roryfan. Being a guitar fanatic, naturally I'm tempted to try out all the boutique type brands and gears, ones that so many of us rave about on forums - G&L, Heritage, amongst others. But after I've tried only a couple of them, I quickly realized that they are very difficult to get rid of, for a good price.

Soon after, I refrain myself from looking beyond the big boys. The big G and F alone provide me with enough choices.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

My first electric guitar was a Gibson Barney Kessel custom approx. 1962 year model. I picked it up in 1964/65 cost $1250.00, loved that guitar. Well for reasons not explainable it was sold and I went back to acoustics. My next electric was a Gibson LP and another and another. I just couldn't find anything to match that Barney Kessel until last year in Dec. 2012 I found and purchased a Gibson L4 CES Custom Shop and it plays better than the old Barney. This is not a new 2012 Gibson, it was made in 1998, smooth, silky and sexy. Yes it cost me over $4000.00 but when I consider all the money I spent on the other guitars as well as Gibson's this one was well worth it. I also have a 2004 50th; anniversary Fender Strat nice guitar too but it doesn't play as well as the L4. I think that there is better quality in higher end guitars but there is no sense buying one if your looking for a beach party or bar gig guitar. I also bought a Godin 5th. Ave CW that cost less than $1000.00and it's a great little player as well. I think if you like, want it and have the money, buy it.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

fredyfreeloader said:


> My first electric guitar was a Gibson Barney Kessel custom approx. 1962 year model. I picked it up in 1964/65 cost $1250.00, loved that guitar. Well for reasons not explainable it was sold and I went back to acoustics. My next electric was a Gibson LP and another and another. I just couldn't find anything to match that Barney Kessel until last year in Dec. 2012 I found and purchased a Gibson L4 CES Custom Shop and it plays better than the old Barney. This is not a new 2012 Gibson, it was made in 1998, smooth, silky and sexy. Yes it cost me over $4000.00 but when I consider all the money I spent on the other guitars as well as Gibson's this one was well worth it. I also have a 2004 50th; anniversary Fender Strat nice guitar too but it doesn't play as well as the L4. I think that there is better quality in higher end guitars but there is no sense buying one if your looking for a beach party or bar gig guitar. I also bought a Godin 5th. Ave CW that cost less than $1000.00and it's a great little player as well. I think if you like, want it and have the money, buy it.


Congrats on finding a suitable replacement. Wow, $1250 was a lot of money back then. IIRC my dad told me that he made about $50/week when he first came to Canada in the early 60s, so it would seem like the relative price of guitars has actually dropped in the past 50 yrs. 

Hmm.... I wonder if that "evil Gibson marketing machine" has actually benefitted the consumer? Sell more guitars, then buy raw materials in bulk & develop more efficient production techniques so that instruments can be sold at a lower cost thus allowing even more ppl to enter the market & own a guitar....repeat.... I say old chap, what a smashing idea!

Unlike Alanis' definition (sorry honey, that was just sh*tty luck), the folks who tend to moan & complain the most about getting gouged by the big manufacturers have actually benefitted the most thanks to the plethora of inexpensive yet surprisingly decent instruments now available. Pretty sure that a CV Squier costs way less in today's dollars than a Kay did in 1960s money yet sounds & plays a whole lot better.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Roryfan said:


> True dat. I've taken a pretty good bath on more than one partscaster or upgraded Epiphone, but buying/trading gently used higher end gear has allowed me to experience close to 100 guitars in the past 5 years. IME G&L, Heritage, Hamer, PRS etc. make excellent guitars, but they can be hard to move & do not hold their value on the used market at all, whereas I've always broken even +/- $300 on a USA or Custom Shop Fender or Gibson.


On an average, that would mean you could experience each of those guitars for 18.25 days.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

fredyfreeloader said:


> My first electric guitar was a Gibson Barney Kessel custom approx. 1962 year model. I picked it up in 1964/65 cost $1250.00, loved that guitar. Well for reasons not explainable it was sold and I went back to acoustics. My next electric was a Gibson LP and another and another. I just couldn't find anything to match that Barney Kessel until last year in Dec. 2012 I found and purchased a Gibson L4 CES Custom Shop and it plays better than the old Barney. This is not a new 2012 Gibson, it was made in 1998, smooth, silky and sexy. Yes it cost me over $4000.00 but when I consider all the money I spent on the other guitars as well as Gibson's this one was well worth it. I also have a 2004 50th; anniversary Fender Strat nice guitar too but it doesn't play as well as the L4. I think that there is better quality in higher end guitars but there is no sense buying one if your looking for a beach party or bar gig guitar. I also bought a Godin 5th. Ave CW that cost less than $1000.00and it's a great little player as well. I think if you like, want it and have the money, buy it.


I am very curious to know why you wouldn't know it wasn't what you really wanted when you left the store?


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> On an average, that would mean you could experience each of those guitars for 18.25 days.


That would drive me crazy... selling/buying guitars every 20 days. I have better things to do like... play music


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> I am very curious to know why you wouldn't know it wasn't what you really wanted when you left the store?


When you are playing 6 nights a week and constantly traveling you look for and purchase the best possible unit available at the time. There where not many music stores that carried a large stock of different quality guitars and there where no L&M's in the 60's/70's/80's you took what was available. A gig guitars is just that. The Barney Kassel and/or the L4 are special, even today not many stores will carry these types of guitars. You play what is available and you keep looking and maybe you get lucky and find what you want, in the mean time you spend a lot of money on lower end units. Not that LP's are lower end they just aren't the same quality as the L4's/L5's etc.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Lots of things to consider, most have already been mentioned here. Once in a while you will come across a guitar that just has a fabulous tone. Just like Kim Mitchell says, he has no idea why it just does. I once had a low end Epi LP and it had amazing tone stock. I later gutted it and put high end parts on it and basically lost that tone. But in terms of pure playing you cannot beat a finely crafted instrument. They are just a pleasure to play IMO. Everything is near perfect. Balance, frets, neck, pockets etc etc. 

The tone they produce can be hit and miss and sometimes you will come across a cheap guitar that sounds amazing.


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## grooveyard (Dec 3, 2012)

I too agree with djmarcela about inexpensive guitars being 'tweaked' to play beautifully. I own an Epiphone Flying V and an Epi G400 -- both approx $450 in the store. After my luthier friend set them up and I changed out the electronics, these instruments truly sing. Of course new pickups cost money and luthiers don't work for free, but still these instruments, in total, cost less then half of the "real thing". The only thing missing from them is any kind of resale value...but they're not for sale anyway...
That said, I also own a Les Paul Custom and a Firebird, both "real" Gibsons, and these two guitars are so beautifuly crafted, especially the Firebird. Although they still needed the luthier's set up skills to make them playable. And the Gibsons have some re-sale value of course.....but again, they're not for sale anyway. 
I would admit that some of it I would call "brand snobbery" and I'm guilty of that. I want to see 'Gibson' or 'Fender' (USA of course) on the headstock.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

djmarcelca said:


> OOO man...
> 
> Everything that makes a car, is Identical in those 2 models.
> Frame
> ...


It is not a car forum, but the metaphor is perfect in this case and you are helping to make my point. 

the Accord and Acura TL are basically the same car, just like my G&L Strat and the Squire that I used to have. But the Acura has more horsepower (and requires premium fuel), better handling (SH AWD), paddle shifters, better comfort and noise reduction features, better sound system, etc. All features that are irrelevant and incidental to the fundamental driving experience and make little or no difference to the average driver - I really notice and appreciate the subtle differences and I am happy to pay extra for my G&L Strat. 

But your point is definitely a valid one. I have tried many much more expensive Strats (and cars), and I would be happy to keep my Squire over most, but then there is that one or two that just have that extra something that really works for me. 

Indeed, I can fuss all I want over the subtle differences and I know for a fact that the audience doesn't know or care about them when they hear me play. But I am not doing it for them, same with the driving experience, it is for my enjoyment. That is why we spend time here, and $ on gear we don't need (and cars).


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## Cartcanuck (Oct 30, 2012)

But.....but......won't an expensive guitar make me play better??!?!?!? That's what the guy in the guitar store told me. 





I will equate this to digital camera equipment. My DSLR that cost $2000 three years ago has made more money for me than my full time job over those past three years. I COULD have bought the $5000 camera and got extra megapixels, more rugged construction, a couple extra features, and a bit more "wow" factor from those seeing me use it. But it isn't necessary for me to make money off the images. No one has once said to me that the images I created aren't good enough. If I could justify the expense, I would have purchased the top end pro-gear. But I did not buy the bottom end consumer DSLR because it was not weather sealed, didn't have the same electronics, didn't offer some of the functions that I needed. I could have created the images using the $800 camera, but it wouldn't have been as easy to use, as comfortable to use, or as durable and would have likely been replaced already. I did however buy professional series lenses and have not had to upgrade those while I've purchase and upgraded three DSLR's over those 8 years. The high quality of the lens is crucial to image sharpness and the quality or features have changed little in the past 7 years so there has been no reason to upgrade these.

I've taught photography sessions where I get asked the question "what's the right camera to buy" and it always turns into a brand argument. I have a simple answer to that.....Get what you want, get what you need, get what you're comfortable with, get what you will appreciate and use, and get what you can afford. Then *KNOW HOW TO USE IT* and enjoy and appreciate it. 

I'm a noob at guitar (3-4 years). I"m happy with my Fender acoustic and my Washburn electric. Yes, I sit in Long and McQuade and poorly noodle around on Epi's, PRS's, Fenders and Gibsons. I toured the Gibson plant in Memphis last year and drooled endlessly (and learned to appreciate the craftsmanship that goes into a good guitar and helps justify some of the cost and value of that guitar). I sat in the store at the plant and played guitars that I'll never own because of the huge price tag. BUT I do fantasize about owning a real Gibson Les Paul because I like the sound, like the look and like the feel of them and I've seen the process of making them and I appreciate that quality control. Today, I can't justify the price tag because I couldn't make the guitar sing the way it should. If I had bottomless pockets with money to burn, maybe. But once I feel my playing is up to my standard, I'll buy one. Because I WANT it and I will know how to play it. Just like my camera equipment. I didn't buy a professional package when I was just figuring out what fstops were or shutter speeds or what grain structure in film (yup, I'm old) I liked to use. But I sure did once I started figuring out and someone wrote me a cheque for my knowledge and expertise. 

So for me, it all comes down to get what you want, get what you need, get what you're comfortable with, get what you will appreciate and use, and get what you can afford. Then *KNOW HOW TO USE IT* and enjoy and appreciate it.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> On an average, that would mean you could experience each of those guitars for 18.25 days.


I double checked the numbers & it's not quite as it seems. I've been playing for 23 years & had about a dozen guitars during the first 15 years, never owning more than 3 or 4 at a time (a Strat, something w/ humbuckers & an old Norman B-20 that I still have to this day). 8 years ago I ran across a CS Strat that blew away my prized SRV, so I did a 3 for 1 trade. My first decent guitar as a teenager was a 1980 LP Custom that I regret selling, and not long after finding the CS Strat, I came across a great LP, so I came full circle & bought it (like the Norman, I still own that LP).

Since then, I've been through about 70-75 instruments, or an average of 9/year. This being said, I currently have 25 in my collection (the herd shall be thinned - I know that noman would disagree, but 8 Strats is actually too many), so it's not as if I only have one guitar that changes every few weeks. 

Many of that 70-75 were acquired out of a combination of curiosity + too good of a deal to pass up. If I didn't bond with the guitar, it was moved along & I broke even or thereabouts (I consider a loss of $100 as a rental fee). Quite a few of were taken as partial trades, solely with the intent of flipping to cash out, but sometimes they ended up hanging around a little longer (a certain '97 Am Std Strat from davetcan comes to mind). 

The other part of the equation is upgrading. I've always loved SGs, but it took me a dozen to find a couple that I really like. I started out w/ an Epiphone & literally moved up one level at a time. I refuse to buy a guitar w/out playing it first & always bring along my best example of said instrument to compare. If that Strat sounds better than my current #1, let's talk. But I've also walked away from a lot of deals.

Is 25 guitars too many for someone that doesn't earn their living from music? Probably. But playing is a great stress relief. I've never smoked, I drink moderately, the guitars have been acquired gradually over the past 8 years & always w/ disposable income, so my guitar habit isn't a financial hardship. I try to play every day, and they all get their turn in the rotation. Also, I appreciate the craftmanship that goes into the instruments themselves, to my mind the finer ones truly are works of art. Yes, I know that Leo Fender developed the Strat as a mass-produced item to make a profit, but Leo's commercial motivations in no way lessens the fact that it is a design masterpeice.

And as much as I bitch & moan about the gong show that Kijiji has become, I actually met one of my best friends through a guitar trade.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

GUInessTARS said:


> I also find it significant that none of the forum members who own higher-end instruments ever seem to feel the need to engage in this particular discussion. I guess when you get it, you get it.
> I am a long winded SOB at times.


Whats significant about not wanting to get in to a somewhat ridiculous conversation? If you think there is no difference between Squier and a $3,000 custom shop then to you there isn't.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Lots of things to consider, most have already been mentioned here. Once in a while you will come across a guitar that just has a fabulous tone. Just like Kim Mitchell says, he has no idea why it just does. I once had a low end Epi LP and it had amazing tone stock. I later gutted it and put high end parts on it and basically lost that tone. But in terms of pure playing you cannot beat a finely crafted instrument. They are just a pleasure to play IMO. Everything is near perfect. Balance, frets, neck, pockets etc etc.
> 
> The tone they produce can be hit and miss and sometimes you will come across a cheap guitar that sounds amazing.


I'm reminded of the Grey Cup half-time show a few years ago. BTO played and Randy B. used a gold-top Epi Les Paul, while his Gibby sat in the stand behind him. Rumour has it that Mr. Bachman knows a thing or two about guitars (and not just Gretsch's). 

Guitars seem to be more than the sum of their parts - sometimes they 'just work' as they are, for whatever reason. And in my experience, a higher percentage of more expensive guitars 'just work' than the lower level guitars. I suspect because they start with slightly or significantly better parts and have better craftsmanship involved. Still, there are monday and friday guitars in every run, and from every continent. YMMV.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

bluesmostly said:


> It is not a car forum, but the metaphor is perfect in this case and you are helping to make my point.
> 
> the Accord and Acura TL are basically the same car, just like my G&L Strat and the Squire that I used to have. But the Acura has more horsepower (and requires premium fuel), better handling (SH AWD), paddle shifters, better comfort and noise reduction features, better sound system, etc. All features that are irrelevant and incidental to the fundamental driving experience and make little or no difference to the average driver - I really notice and appreciate the subtle differences and I am happy to pay extra for my G&L Strat.
> 
> ...



Well, if you think Infinitis are at the same level of quality or luxury as Nissans, you're not driving the same models I do.

Same goes with Acura and Honda. No they don't use gold plated parts, but the PPM defect rates allowable in the assembly process is a fraction of those allowed in the basic models.

The TL and Accord are VERY different cars. First, the Acura is AWD. That alone makes a rather fundamental difference.

I'm buying an Infiniti sometime in the next couple of weeks. The model I am buying (G37S) has no comparable Nissan model.

I assure you that if you drive the G37S and then an Altima or Maxima, you will know very quickly where that extra money went.

If not, you should save your money and buy a Sentra or Versa.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Well, if you think Infinitis are at the same level of quality or luxury as Nissans, you're not driving the same models I do.
> 
> Same goes with Acura and Honda. No they don't use gold plated parts, but the PPM defect rates allowable in the assembly process is a fraction of those allowed in the basic models.
> 
> ...


Mike, I think you plucked a quote from the wrong person or didn't read my post, or I didn't make myself clear. I agree with you. I think the TL provides a superior driving experience over the Accord - that's why I am trying to convince my wife to let me sell her Accord and get the TL. She doesn't appreciate the differences as much as I do, which is the point of this thread. 

And yes, G37s smokes the Maxima IMO. I tried the G37s last year, it is awesome, congrats.


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## GUInessTARS (Dec 28, 2007)

The significance to me was that this discussion seems to always come from those with less expensive guitars questioning the value of the more expensive ones.

And the marketing for the epiphones, squires and (prs) se's seems to at least equal their more upmarket cousins. And seems to be much more prevalent than for custom shop or luthier models.

So maybe the advertising/marketing exists to convince people that the less expensive models are worth more than they actually are.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

fredyfreeloader said:


> When you are playing 6 nights a week and constantly traveling you look for and purchase the best possible unit available at the time. There where not many music stores that carried a large stock of different quality guitars and there where no L&M's in the 60's/70's/80's you took what was available. A gig guitars is just that. The Barney Kassel and/or the L4 are special, even today not many stores will carry these types of guitars. You play what is available and you keep looking and maybe you get lucky and find what you want, in the mean time you spend a lot of money on lower end units. Not that LP's are lower end they just aren't the same quality as the L4's/L5's etc.


Thanks, Fredy, for the explanation. It makes sense when you look at that time line. No online stores back then either.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

grooveyard said:


> t. _*I want to see 'Gibson' or 'Fender' (USA of course) on the headstock.*_


I have a black marker you can borrow.





















sdsre


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## Howi (Feb 3, 2009)

Milkman said:


> I'm buying an Infiniti sometime in the next couple of weeks. The model I am buying (G37S) has no comparable Nissan model.


Nissan 370Z.

I completlely agree with you on all other points though.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

I find the big name 'standards' nowadays (Gibson, Fender) way overpriced compared to the myriad of really fine boutique brands available for less $ on the market now. A Gibson LP Custom at L&M @ 4K. Seriously?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

bluesmostly said:


> I find the big name 'standards' nowadays (Gibson, Fender) way overpriced compared to the myriad of really fine boutique brands available for less $ on the market now. A Gibson LP Custom at L&M @ 4K. Seriously?


At best, there would be $500.00 worth of parts in that guitar at the mfr's cost. That means $3500.00 would be labour. At $20.00/hour (which is very liberal) that works out to be 175 hours of labour. I would be surprised if there is more than 17 hours of labour in that guitar. 

From start to finish a car is on the assembly line less than 24 hours from start to finish. They must be polishing the finish on that guitar for over 150 hours!


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

I've always been a big Nissan/Infiniti fan and have owned most versions of the Z cars along with an FX35 more recently. After driving a whole bunch of stuff last year, including the G37S and 370Z I ended up with a Bimmer 135i with M sport package. Definitely not as many bells and whistles for the $ but a much more rewarding driving experience imo. Reliability remains to be seen but I doubt it's on a par with the Infiniti. I also owned an RDX that was completely trouble free throughout the 4 year warranty period. I traded it on the Bimmer once the warranty had expired.

Significantly more storage space in the bimmer with the seats down. 2 guitars, amp, pedalboard, gig bag = no problem.




Milkman said:


> I'm buying an Infiniti sometime in the next couple of weeks. The model I am buying (G37S) has no comparable Nissan model.
> 
> I assure you that if you drive the G37S and then an Altima or Maxima, you will know very quickly where that extra money went.


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## OldGuitarPlayer (Feb 25, 2013)

In this video I am using a Squier CV50's BSB telecaster bought used for $240 through a $20 Behringer chorus pedal into a Fender Deluxe 90 solid state amp also bought used for $200. Please try to ignore the clams.

[video=youtube;NKPyZaw3jFM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKPyZaw3jFM[/video]


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

OldGuitarPlayer said:


> In this video I am using a Squier CV50's BSB telecaster bought used for $240 through a $20 Behringer chorus pedal into a Fender Deluxe 90 solid state amp also bought used for $200. Please try to ignore the clams.


I like the name of your band, "ATM INSIDE".


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

^^^sounds damn fine to me ^^^^^


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

In the last few years, I've noticed that the gap in pricing between boutique and the big boys has narrowed considerably and in fact in some cases, boutique pricing has exceeded OEM pricing......For example, comparing apples to apples, Historic R9's - I looked at getting a clone from a well known builder in 2008 and pricing was roughly 30% cheaper than the same Gibson. Right now, that same guitar is more expensive than a Gibson R9. It's not only one isolated case - Huber, McInturff, Yaron, etc. all make killer stuff and priced accordingly with the demand. The demand for boutique gear has increased significantly with the advent of gear forums.


bluesmostly said:


> I find the big name 'standards' nowadays (Gibson, Fender) way overpriced compared to the myriad of really fine boutique brands available for less $ on the market now. A Gibson LP Custom at L&M @ 4K. Seriously?


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i think that there is a price point that should get you a decent instrument capable of being used in a professional setting. a minimum standard, if you will, for a working guitarist. going beyond that point you should see refinement rise with the price. i doubt that it's a linear thing, but still. along with the refinement, cosmetic enhancements increase with the price as well. elegance need not be flashy. some refinements are as subtle as a cleaner joint, or simpler way of doing something done to all similar guitars. for example, the way the neck binding intersects with the headstock binding. some methods are cleaner looking than others. some folks never notice at all that there is even a difference. in my mind, it's all about what you require. i can get by just fine with that minimum standard. some folks can afford to enjoy a more refined instrument, some with features unavailable in a lower end guitar. honestly, it'd be pearls on swine for me. i'd love to have some awesome custom piece. but for what? so i can play along with warren haynes rockin the living room? sure if i had some custom made guitar i might really like playing it. but then i need a sweet amp and pedal board too. and better cables. a power conditioner, and a good camera and a mic so i can do covers on youtube. then i'll need the different editing softwares for sound and video. and better clothes. and i'll have to clean up around here. and arrange the room so the sound isn't all wonky. see where it's going? i think i'd rather just burn one, watch a lesson video, then jam with warren or dave, or buddy or a buttload of youtube backing tracks.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

OldGuitarPlayer said:


> In this video I am using a Squier CV50's BSB telecaster bought used for $240 through a $20 Behringer chorus pedal into a Fender Deluxe 90 solid state amp also bought used for $200. Please try to ignore the clams.


Case in point! Good stuff! I don't know what a clam is OldG, but you make that rig sound pretty good. You would sound a heck of a lot better if you had a smokin' rhythm section (no offence to your buds).


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

good rant Cheezy.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

cheezyridr said:


> i'd love to have some awesome custom piece. but for what? so i can play along with warren haynes rockin the living room? sure if i had some custom made guitar i might really like playing it. but then i need a sweet amp and pedal board too. and better cables. a power conditioner, and a good camera and a mic so i can do covers on youtube. then i'll need the different editing softwares for sound and video. and better clothes. and i'll have to clean up around here. and arrange the room so the sound isn't all wonky. see where it's going? i think i'd rather just burn one, watch a lesson video, then jam with warren or dave, or buddy or a buttload of youtube backing tracks.


Groupies. You forgot the groupies.
Peace, Mooh.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Howi said:


> Nissan 370Z.
> 
> I completlely agree with you on all other points though.


I love the Z but it has no back seat and alas I need at least a token gesture in that respect.

The G37S is a slick car and this one has 340 HP and weighs less than an Altima (goes like stink).


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

At first I didnt know why people were comparing guitars with cars, but I guess they do sort of follow your buying patterns. Interesting. I like Parkers because they use alternative materials with lots of hand work. I drive a car made from aluminum with lots of hand work. I like subtle guitars like Soloists and Parkers and dont like the weird shapes. Hate cars with wings on them and fart can exhausts, but love subtle cars. I guess the cars we buy is very similar to the guitars we buy, and probably similar to everything else we buy like our houses. We truely are a bunch of simple, predictable creatures, no wonder those companies keep taking our coin. And if thats true, no one can put forth any arguement in this thread that will change your beliefs. If you like cheap guitars, you will always like cheap guitars. If you like expensive guitars, you will always like expensive guitars...............


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Accept2 said:


> If you like cheap guitars, you will always like cheap guitars. If you like expensive guitars, you will always like expensive guitars...............


I hate cheap guitars but I like inexpensive ones if they are built with quality. I don't hate expensive guitars but don't need the bling that often comes with them or the status symbol on the headstock. 

When it comes to cars, I like top of the line vehicles but always buy used, low mileage vehicles and let someone else take the hit on the depreciation.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

OldGuitarPlayer said:


> In this video I am using a Squier CV50's BSB telecaster bought used for $240 through a $20 Behringer chorus pedal into a Fender Deluxe 90 solid state amp also bought used for $200. Please try to ignore the clams.


You forgot to mention that you bought a talent button.

After 10 pages I guess I will chime in. Having had built 7 guitars and played lots of different ones I used to lean towards the " that sound can be achieved cheaply " crowd. 

Until I got a Gretsch a year and a half ago. I still go " holy #### " this is an amazing guitar.


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

shoretyus said:


> You forgot to mention that you bought a talent button.
> 
> After 10 pages I guess I will chime in. Having had built 7 guitars and played lots of different ones I used to lean towards the " that sound can be achieved cheaply " crowd.
> 
> Until I got a Gretsch a year and a half ago. I still go " holy #### " this is an amazing guitar.


Agreed. I have a Gibson R7 that makes me feel the same way. The neck, the setup, the sound are all just perfect. It was expensive but to me it is worth it. I take it everywhere, I play it at gigs (I have a bike lock that I run through the handle LOL) I travel with it. I would buy another one in a heartbeat if I lost it. Does it sound any better in a gig situation than a Studio or an Epi? Don't know, don't care. It makes me happy. Would I still love it if it cost $500? for sure.

As an aside I drive a 2013 Scion FRS, if you haven't tried one, you should go right this minute to the closest Toyota dealer and drive one. So much fun.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Great car. It and the Subaru were released just after I bought the 135 otherwise I may have ended up with one, as long as they have lots of leg room that is 

On the guitar side I have stuff valued from about $300 for a MIM Strat to just over $2000 if I'm being optimistic. I like them all but every time I pick up the PRS Cu24 with W/F neck I realize it's perfect. The neck just fits my hands better than any other. Sure wish I could get it on all my guitars. 




zdogma said:


> As an aside I drive a 2013 Scion FRS, if you haven't tried one, you should go right this minute to the closest Toyota dealer and drive one. So much fun.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2013)

shoretyus said:


> You forgot to mention that you bought a talent button.


You can get them in pedals too.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

laristotle said:


> You can get them in pedals too.


Please send me a couple of those.


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## fretboard (May 31, 2006)

Pedals these days can do anything...

View attachment 3505


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Think my ex had one of those pedals. 



fretboard said:


> Pedals these days can do anything...
> 
> View attachment 3505


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

fretboard said:


> Pedals these days can do anything...
> 
> View attachment 3505


I'll take a couple of those too.

If I'd known there were pedals like this available I wouldn't have bought my RP-255.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

love the Blame Shifter pedal!


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## -ST- (Feb 2, 2008)

GUInessTARS said:


> ...
> I also find it significant that none of the forum members who own higher-end instruments ever seem to feel the need to engage in this particular discussion. I guess when you get it, you get it.


This! 

I've never had anyone take me to task for my choices in guitars although these kinds of threads seem to be doing just that. I don't feel compelled to justify my choices. I'm content enough to enjoy them.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Just wondering where the $1000 figure came from. It seems kind of arbitrary. The industry doesn't build or price to that as some sort of magic threshold or ceiling. There are many factors that make an instrument more (or less) expensive, some of which are very hard to do under that figure while allowing for a worthwhile profit margin. Carved archtop hollowbodies, multiple non-generic pickups, highly figured exotic woods, for example. Combine some of those and other things and $1000 seems impossible. Even Eastman hasn't stayed under that.

But whatever...I don't care what others pay, and I'll pay whatever I can afford to get what I want.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Yes, you can get great guitars for under $1000.


But, my guitars costing more than that are better than the ones I own costing less for the most part.


There are exceptions of course.


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## the-patient (May 19, 2009)

I think this is the most apt statement, here. As a rule, my more expensive guitars tend to be more stable, nicer to play, and just overall better, but this isn't a hard and fast rule. There are tons of inexpensive gems out there, but with money you buy a much higher batting average for quality.



Milkman said:


> Yes, you can get great guitars for under $1000.
> 
> 
> But, my guitars costing more than that are better than the ones I own costing less for the most part.
> ...


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