# Have you tried a career in music?



## Grab n Go

Just sharing a video from a Winnipeg-based YouTuber. It kinda hit home for me. I applaud his honesty.






Years ago, I did the recording engineering thing for a while in Toronto. I did some training at Wellesley Sound and worked out of a friend's studio in North York. I count myself lucky that I managed to get any experience at all. No studio that I applied to at the time was accepting interns.

Long story long, I eventually came to the conclusion that I really just wanted to play guitar, jam and gig around town on occasion. But if I'm being honest, I like jamming more than anything. (With kids, though, it's tough doing any of those things.)

So I guess I also "failed" at a music career. Or maybe I just took the roundabout way of playing more guitar.

Has anyone else here dabbled in the music biz? Or maybe you've found your own way in a music career? I'd love to hear your stories.

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## bw66

For me, "career" is too strong of a word, but music is my only source of income and currently occupies pretty much all of the time that I'm prepared to give it. I started teaching music part-time in 2004, shortly after my daughter was born, when I was a stay-at-home dad. I began teaching one evening a week and by the time of the shutdown, I was teaching three days a week with 5 or 6 regular paid gigs a month plus a number of "one-offs", often as a sound tech. Teaching provides about two-thirds of my income and gigging provides about two-thirds of the enjoyment. Not a "career" by any means, but I average close to $40/hr. for the time that I spend performing and teaching.


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## Chitmo

@Shredneck may have some insight into this.


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## zztomato

I'm fulltime with guitar repairs in my shop and have been for 10 years, does that count as a career in music? Probably not but, it pays way better than gigging and moderately better than teaching. 
Before doing repair work I tried to make a go of it playing and teaching but it's way too inconsistent and I do not have the mindset to constantly hustle to get gigs. I am also not a natural "frontman" which means I have to generally play a support role. If you are a sideman, you are in a precarious position. 
Bottom line is that you have to be in charge or in demand or you are going nowhere.


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## KapnKrunch

Lol. That poor guy. I never tried to make a living from playing but even I was getting $300 per night, sometimes more. My son is on his second successful venture. Other friends have succeeded at writing, performing, production and local hero stuff but it's always a scramble. 

I think his biggest mistake was trying to latch onto the big time "establishment" instead of grabbing the low-hanging fruit. He has too much talent to settle for the shit that does others so well. Poor guy.

"I'd rather be a big fish in a small pond, than a small fish in a big pond." -- _Julius Caesar_


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## Budda

I was expecting this to be that video "the hardest thing to do on guitar" - disappointed!

I've been in bands on and off and teaching guitar on and off for 16 years, so yes I have a music career. Only the teaching pays, and I try very hard not to think about the money spent on giving it a proper go.

The downsides are known, but I've played across a good chunk of North America and have met some truly great people on my journey.

If you start into music in the hopes of making money, you're already doomed.


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## Mooh

Short answer:

I teach music privately full-time. It's a living. I like it. 

Long answer: 

My first job out of high school was playing bass/keys/guitar in a dance band, gigging almost every week, sometimes twice a week, even the odd matinee. I was bored without a day job so for a few years I did both, and they paid about equally. I was young and naive, overly energetic, and a party animal, so it all kind of worked. I added the odd lesson here and there, mostly for friends, but I disliked a schedule that tight. Suddenly it all came to an end (I'll spare you the details and me the keystrokes) and I was amateur for a few years. 

When my kids were little I started gigging again, usually several bands at a time, some recording, some teaching. I lost my day job in '98 which totally fucked me up so I turned to music full-time by setting myself up as a private instructor. Since '99 I've taught mostly full-time from my little home lesson studio, and I plan to continue that for a few more years. Until a couple of years ago I was still gigging regularly in two bands and two duos plus one-offs here and there but now all I do are one-offs. I record at home as the local studios with a couple of notable exceptions closed with the influx of digital home recording. I don't enjoy traveling enough to drive long distances to studios for peanuts.


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## Sketchy Jeff

Grab n Go said:


> So I guess I also "failed" at a music career. Or maybe I just took the roundabout way of playing more


if you got what you wanted and end up playing more that doesn't sound like failure to me

j


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## Grab n Go

Mooh said:


> I record at home as the local studios with a couple of notable exceptions closed with the influx of digital home recording.


Yep, many of the music studios in Toronto were on their last legs when I finished my training. Or I think they moved to Hamilton.

Metalworks, one of the well known ones from the 80's turned into a recording school.

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## Grab n Go

Sketchy Jeff said:


> if you got what you wanted and end up playing more that doesn't sound like failure to me
> 
> j


Thanks, I'm glad things turned out how they did. I think seeing that video brought back some memories for me.

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## Grab n Go

Budda said:


> The downsides are known, but I've played across a good chunk of North America and have met some truly great people on my journey.


I've never toured, and I don't have any illusions about what touring entails, but I imagine meeting cool people would be one of the best perks.

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## Grab n Go

KapnKrunch said:


> I think his biggest mistake was trying to latch onto the big time "establishment" instead of grabbing the low-hanging fruit. He has too much talent to settle for the shit that does others so well.


I can't fault a guy for going for it. But, yeah, sometimes what you're looking for is right in front of you.

Sadly, during this pandemic, YouTubers are the only ones being seen.

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## Grab n Go

zztomato said:


> I'm fulltime with guitar repairs in my shop and have been for 10 years, does that count as a career in music?


I remember when I was researching the music industry in Canada. I had this book that outlined just about every career path in the music business-- the type of thing that's now a Google search away. According to that book, you _are_ a part of the industry. Because, you know, books never lie...

Anyway, I have tremendous respect for anyone who specializes in guitar or amp repair. I dabble, but I also know my limit and play within it.

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## Mooh

Grab n Go said:


> I've never toured, and I don't have any illusions about what touring entails, but I imagine meeting cool people would be one of the best perks.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


Tried very short tours years...well, decades, ago. Hated them. Passionately. We did it wrong. Sleeping on the PA, cheap greasy food, flea-bit motels, shitty weather. I liked my own bed, home cooking, local gigs, better take home pay. I met cooler people by playing local festivals, and hanging out.


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## Permanent Waves

I never had the drive or the talent to attempt a career in music, so I went on a secure path that allowed me to pursue music as a serious hobby. I knew so many talented musicians who should have become Rock Stars who ended up as music teachers and instrument salesmen. Some folks I knew who gigged in the 70's told me they could make a living at it back then, but that disappeared around the time of the disco era. 

However, today's technology is giving musicians a chance to earn income and monetise their skills in ways that did not exist even 15 years ago. I already knew who SamuraiGuitarist was before watching the video, so hopefully young, talented musicians can find innovative ways to monetise their passion and make it in the music business after all, on their own terms. The business model had changed dramatically.


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## Sketchy Jeff

My sister plays professionally and has toured all over the place as a supporting player. For the stuff she does based in Montreal all those negotiating decisions get easier as part of the musician's union standard rates and conditions. Other markets that's less strong or the band can't meet anywhere near those rates so it's labour of love like you describe sleeping in the van eating a Timmy's bagel per day plus beer at the show. Pros and cons I guess. 
j


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## Sketchy Jeff

KapnKrunch said:


> too much talent to settle for the shit ...


That's a funny balance. 

I often try to take care of little odds and ends stuff so I can clear a space, literally and in my head, for The One Big Thing that's important to me. The little shit uses up all the time / energy / resources and The One Big Thing sits there undone. 

But on the other hand as you say if you set aside opportunity after opportunity because it doesn't quite match The One Big Thing then nothing at all happens until that big project pays off. Hope is great but it doesn't have much nutritional value and the bank won't extend me a line of credit secured by hope.

j


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## KapnKrunch

"Unfortunately young musicians tend to love the race to the bottom." 









The Musicians Union | Exclaim!


Its safe to say that being a working musician has always been a tough gig. In the pre-electricity days, virtuoso performers who could draw...



exclaim.ca


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## Frenchy

Playing music has been part of my entire life. Started as a family band as a kid jamming and playing almost daily. Eventually, working to make money got in the way. Add women to the mix.

Learned the hard that having a reg a job and playing in a bar on a Thursday and Friday night don't mix.

Got into writing our own material and had good response but life and work gets the better of you.

Started playing in 2 different bands in the last 10 years, one band was moving very fast and we had lots of bookings but the guitarist wife caught him sleeping with our singer... One band down... Second band was for fun and last year, 2 of the members got flooded and now the Covid 19.

So! play at home as a hobby is the way to go for me.

I also enjoy fixing guitars, basses and now amps...

Its a hobby !


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## Grab n Go

KapnKrunch said:


> "Unfortunately young musicians tend to love the race to the bottom."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Musicians Union | Exclaim!
> 
> 
> Its safe to say that being a working musician has always been a tough gig. In the pre-electricity days, virtuoso performers who could draw...
> 
> 
> 
> exclaim.ca


Interesting read. I'm not sure it's a generational thing as much as it is a lack of awareness among musicians not formally trained.

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## GuitarPix

I try every day


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## Grab n Go

GuitarPix said:


> I try every day
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Word

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## Sketchy Jeff

I have made some money through music. A bit from recording. A bit from live playing. Some from teaching. 

But it's never been the majority of my income. 

I have had jobs that involve playing / arranging / organizing music as part of a larger role. Churches and not-for-profit charity organizations. But in those cases there's some music spread around with semi-related and unrelated jobs and none of them would be called 'the music business'. 

Have I wanted to? Sure. My mom taught music her whole career and I have a sister who plays professionally (without teaching which is an interesting exception) and I had big goals once upon a time to make a living in music too. But I didn't have the focus or determination for it and I found that I need to keep my work life separate from my personal life in order to stay sane in a way that a music job doesn't allow. So I left the professional side of music / charity / church and got into construction management and design work instead. Now I play guitar like I just don't care, put on local community shows from time to time, and lend a hand to other people's projects as it suits. Income generating work is its own separate thing that I can stop thinking about when I'm not doing it. 

j


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## Budda

No young musicians want to be in a race to the bottom, fyi.


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## KapnKrunch

The writer means they will play for low wages or play for nothing. What do you mean?

Twenty years ago my post-adolescent son and ALL his friends gladly played for twenty bucks in clubs owned by the town's wealthiest businessmen. Has this changed?

Union scale in US$:









Pay scales - Local 1000 AFM


Pay scales are set collectively by Local 1000 members, to establish a minimum wage. Many of our members negotiate payment well above scale. If you perform under a Local 1000 contract you must receive at least scale wages. This applies as well to any musician appearing with you, whether or not...




www.local1000.org


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## Grab n Go

KapnKrunch said:


> Twenty years ago my post-adolescent son and ALL his friends gladly played for twenty bucks in clubs owned by the town's wealthiest businessmen. Has this changed?


I last gigged about ten years ago. We usually got a percentage of the door and bar sales. It really depended on the venue and bookie.

Twenty bucks for playing at a club doesn't surprise me. If you're young and starting out, the alternative is often some sleazy promoter doing a "battle of the bands", sell tickets, pay-to-play type of deal.

I guess that's why YouTube seems like a more reasonable stream of income in comparison.

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## Big_Daddy

I started my musical "career" before I left high school in 1969. I gigged with various bands (supported by part-time jobs when needed) until 1985, doing the 6-night-a-week bar scene for most of the last 3 years until I eventually burnt out at the age of 35. I played from Quebec to BC and as far south as Austin, Texas in the early '80's playing everything from country to bluegrass to the blues to Top 40, whatever was in demand at the time. It became a gruelling job by the end, destroyed my first marriage and almost me by the time it was over. At one point in the early '80's, I was pulling in $500 a week which was pretty good money back then but when I finally gave it all up, all I had to show for it was an old Econoline van full of used gear and a cocaine habit that almost killed me. My mom passing away in '86 really shook me back to reality and I quit playing music almost entirely, cleaned up my act, met a wonderful girl who I married and had two lovely daughters with. In 2011, my wife convinced me to start playing again and I hooked up with some local musicians in Windsor and have been gigging again a couple of weekends a month for fun and a little coin. When COVID 19 hit, my current band was getting more local gigs than we could handle but, of course, that has all dried up and it is anybody's guess when we will play again on a regular basis. After a 4-month hiatus, we all couldn't stand it any more and held a driveway jam for the neighbours (link below) that was a ton of fun. I will be 70 years old in October and can't imagine what my life would have been like without being a part of the music business. Maybe it's not exactly a career but I think, in the end, it has kept me young beyond my years, helped me make some great freinds and gave me a sense of gratification like nothing else. I hope I can continue to play until my fingers don't work any more

Soul Society driveway jam


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## Grab n Go

Big_Daddy said:


> I I hope I can continue to play until my fingers don't work any more.


I hope so too! For all of us, really.

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## KapnKrunch

Big_Daddy said:


> I started my musical "career" before I left high school in 1969. I gigged with various bands (supported by part-time jobs when needed) until 1985, doing the 6-night-a-week bar scene for most of the last 3 years until I eventually burnt out at the age of 35. I played from Quebec to BC and as far south as Austin, Texas in the early '80's playing everything from country to bluegrass to the blues to Top 40, whatever was in demand at the time. It became a gruelling job by the end, destroyed my first marriage and almost me by the time it was over. At one point in the early '80's, I was pulling in $500 a week which was pretty good money back then but when I finally gave it all up, all I had to show for it was an old Econoline van full of used gear and a cocaine habit that almost killed me. My mom passing away in '86 really shook me back to reality and I quit playing music almost entirely, cleaned up my act, met a wonderful girl who I married and had two lovely daughters with. In 2011, my wife convinced me to start playing again and I hooked up with some local musicians in Windsor and have been gigging again a couple of weekends a month for fun and a little coin. When COVID 19 hit, my current band was getting more local gigs than we could handle but, of course, that has all dried up and it is anybody's guess when we will play again on a regular basis. After a 4-month hiatus, we all couldn't stand it any more and held a driveway jam for the neighbours (link below) that was a ton of fun. I will be 70 years old in October and can't imagine what my life would have been like without being a part of the music business. Maybe it's not exactly a career but I think, in the end, it has kept me young beyond my years, helped me make some great freinds and gave me a sense of gratification like nothing else. I hope I can continue to play until my fingers don't work any more.
> 
> Soul Society driveway jam


Enjoyed the bio! 

[Clicked the link and went to your FB, but saw no music (maybe because I have never joined FB???) "Welding of Welders" was interesting...]


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## Budda

KapnKrunch said:


> The writer means they will play for low wages or play for nothing. What do you mean?
> 
> Twenty years ago my post-adolescent son and ALL his friends gladly played for twenty bucks in clubs owned by the town's wealthiest businessmen. Has this changed?
> 
> Union scale in US$:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pay scales - Local 1000 AFM
> 
> 
> Pay scales are set collectively by Local 1000 members, to establish a minimum wage. Many of our members negotiate payment well above scale. If you perform under a Local 1000 contract you must receive at least scale wages. This applies as well to any musician appearing with you, whether or not...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.local1000.org


No one wants to play for low wages, or free. But they will do it because the mentality is thats all they will get at the start. Getting paid in exposure has been and will always be terrible, as is pay-to-play. The sooner new acts don't engage with this the better.

Just because it's happening doesn't mean it should continue.


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## KapnKrunch

Budda said:


> No one wants to play for low wages, or free. But they will do it because the mentality is thats all they will get at the start. Getting paid in exposure has been and will always be terrible, as is pay-to-play. The sooner new acts don't engage with this the better.
> 
> Just because it's happening doesn't mean it should continue.


Right. I know what you mean. I thought maybe kids were refusing now, which I agree 100%, would be a wise move. 

I tried to convince my son and his pals and his post-adolescent musical scene to rent their own venue, hire a cop, and hold their own shows (which is what we did at his age) but their youthful eyes were blinded by the glory of appearing at the "cool" club. 

Gotta say bud, I am in contempt of businesses that take advantage like that.


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## KapnKrunch

*Inspiration from *_*loreenamckennitt.com* 

"_Less well known is the fact that Ms. McKennitt is a highly successful businesswoman who has created an independent record label with celebrated international success.

"Born in Morden, Manitoba, Canada, she moved to Stratford, Ontario in 1981, where she initially worked with Canada’s renowned Stratford Festival. In 1985 she established her own record label, Quinlan Road, a move which has made her a rarity in the music industry.

"In the early years, Ms. McKennitt ran the operation from her kitchen table, selling her recordings by mail order and producing her own concert tours. Today, she leads her own company with responsibilities that include everything from creating strategic business plans to overseeing marketing and promotion."


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## Mooh

KapnKrunch said:


> *Inspiration from *_*loreenamckennitt.com*
> 
> "_Less well known is the fact that Ms. McKennitt is a highly successful businesswoman who has created an independent record label with celebrated international success.
> 
> "Born in Morden, Manitoba, Canada, she moved to Stratford, Ontario in 1981, where she initially worked with Canada’s renowned Stratford Festival. In 1985 she established her own record label, Quinlan Road, a move which has made her a rarity in the music industry.
> 
> "In the early years, Ms. McKennitt ran the operation from her kitchen table, selling her recordings by mail order and producing her own concert tours. Today, she leads her own company with responsibilities that include everything from creating strategic business plans to overseeing marketing and promotion."


Yeah, well, she's a master at marketing. I've seen and heard her and she's not really my thing, and generally I'm into celtoid stuff. Met her once, still not really my thing, and generally I'm into redheads.


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## KapnKrunch

@Mooh Lol. Bit of the celebrity-saviour thing going on fer sure. 

Edit: I like the kitchen table part.


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## Big_Daddy

KapnKrunch said:


> Enjoyed the bio!
> 
> [Clicked the link and went to your FB, but saw no music (maybe because I have never joined FB???) "Welding of Welders" was interesting...]


Sorry, I forgot to make it Public. It should work now.


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## KapnKrunch

Big_Daddy said:


> Sorry, I forgot to make it Public. It should work now.


🤔😤 Now I get "Content Not Found."


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## Big_Daddy

KapnKrunch said:


> 🤔😤 Now I get "Content Not Found."


Aaargh! I don't know man, I shared it and made it Public. Sorry.


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## Big_Daddy

KapnKrunch said:


> 🤔😤 Now I get "Content Not Found."


I have shared to a different location. Could you try it now and let me know? Thx.


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## KapnKrunch

Big_Daddy said:


> I have shared to a different location. Could you try it now and let me know? Thx.


Oh yeah! Flawless and enthusiastic performance. Great recording quality. Those umbrellas are a good idea. How long did you play? Did the audience follow the current protocols?


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## Grab n Go

Big_Daddy said:


> I have shared to a different location. Could you try it now and let me know? Thx.


Nice groove! You guys sound tight. I love the driveway performance idea. The patio umbrellas are a nice touch.


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## Big_Daddy

We played for two hours (and it was HOT) but our friends and neighbours all really enjoyed it and were very responsible about physical distancing, etc. We will definitely do it again. Thanks for the kind words!


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## zontar

I did when I was younger, but it never went anywhere.
later I taught guitar for several years--so in a sense I had a career in music.

But since then I actually enjoy it way more than I did back in either of those days (& I really enjoyed it back then)


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## Mooh

zontar said:


> I did when I was younger, but it never went anywhere.
> later I taught guitar for several years--so in a sense I had a career in music.
> 
> But since then I actually enjoy it way more than I did back in either of those days (& I really enjoyed it back then)


Cool.

I get the feeling that I'll enjoy music a lot more once I'm able to retire or semi-retire. Less scheduling, fewer deadlines, more creativity.


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## Big_Daddy

Mooh said:


> Cool.
> 
> I get the feeling that I'll enjoy music a lot more once I'm able to retire or semi-retire. Less scheduling, fewer deadlines, more creativity.


That has definitely been the case for me. Having a guaranteed retirement income and feeling no pressure to accept underpaying gigs has also been a pleasant surprise. It has been very gratifying to tell cheap club owners to shove it when they refused to pay our asking price. We now have more work than we can handle (or did have before the quarantine hit) and many of those gigs were from clubs that tried to cheap out on us in the beginning. Having more time to rehearse and practice is definitely an added bonus as well. Retirement rocks.


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## High/Deaf

Budda said:


> No one wants to play for low wages, or free. But they will do it because the mentality is thats all they will get at the start. Getting paid in exposure has been and will always be terrible, as is pay-to-play. The sooner new acts don't engage with this the better.
> 
> Just because it's happening doesn't mean it should continue.


I tilted at the windmill for a while. Made no difference. Money just keeps going down, or outright disappearing. I make about the same now / night as I made 40 years ago. I think it would be fair to say most everything else has gone up in that amount of time, no?

When asked how much for my 3 piece to play for an evening, I quote $300 (way cheap, IMO). They balk (just about always). I suggest they hire a plumber, an electrician and a carpenter for 6 hours Saturday evening (7 -1), get a quote, and we'll play for half that. They never get back to me.


I used to think we were the problem - muso's willing to play for less and less. But ultimately, it's all supply and demand. The current generation doesn't give a flying fug about live music (at least the stuff the majority of players I know play) and the age group that does is dwindling and isn't as active anymore. As you said, bands are on a $ race down to get the gig. And I guess it's well known now, most of us do it because we love it and will play for free. 

My band did a 40 minute set last Saturday for a beer each. But it was hot and that beer tasted good - and the crowd was great and we got a lot of pats on the back. That feels better than $100 (although I wouldn't say no to the money LOL).

It's a brutal business. Always has been, always will be.


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## KapnKrunch

Big_Daddy said:


> ...Having a guaranteed retirement income and feeling no pressure to accept underpaying gigs has also been a pleasant surprise. It has been very gratifying to tell cheap club owners to shove it when they refused to pay our asking price. We now have more work than we can handle... Retirement rocks.


I am refusing money in retirement because I don't want the hassle at income tax time. Have you had any problem?


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## zontar

Mooh said:


> Cool.
> 
> I get the feeling that I'll enjoy music a lot more once I'm able to retire or semi-retire. Less scheduling, fewer deadlines, more creativity.


I'm not even close to retiring from a job of any sort.
But a music career is not likely at this point.
But hopefully you get to enjoy it more as the years go by.
(And hopefully they don't go too quickly)


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## Sketchy Jeff

High/Deaf said:


> My band did a 40 minute set last Saturday for a beer each. But it was hot and that beer tasted good.


If the electrician was willing to do that people wouldn't pay him either. 

No blame on you. 

I play at shows and put on shows that people come to for free or donate as they see fit to some cause we're promoting. I think the notion that music is fun and satisfying has come back to bite us in the sense that it is its own reward. Both audience members and the musicians ourselves contribute. 

j


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## High/Deaf

Sketchy Jeff said:


> If the electrician was willing to do that people wouldn't pay him either.
> 
> No blame on you.
> 
> I play at shows and put on shows that people come to for free or donate as they see fit to some cause we're promoting. *I think the notion that music is fun and satisfying has come back to bite us in the sense that it is its own reward. * Both audience members and the musicians ourselves contribute.
> 
> j


Yes, but the same can be said for pro hockey players, football players, golfers, basketball players, baseball players, racecar drivers, etc. And yet, they ain't doing so bad.

I guess that's the difference between an objective endeavour (it is measureable and the best players get the most offers and thus the highest salary) vs a subjective endeavour (the best musicians don't make the most money, especially the further we 'progress' away from virtuosity, by the looks of things).


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## Sketchy Jeff

High/Deaf said:


> the best musicians don't make the most money


The most talented electricians ... plumbers ... farmers ... mechanics don't make the most money either. Business management is a separate skill from a trade or service or creative whatever. Being good at both things is pretty rare I think. 
For a while long ago plumbers and electricians were in the same boat that musicians are in - a lot of DIY folks figured they could do their own pipes and wires no need to pay somebody else. Then after a bunch of lobbying building codes and permit processed got changed so that most people are forced to hire out their plumbing/electric/hvac work. Sort of like if a city inspector would come around and shut down your party unless you had hired a licensed band. 

The trades gave up flexibility and creativity in exchange for reliability and public enforcement. I don't know how many musicians want to make that trade. 

j


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## High/Deaf

Sketchy Jeff said:


> The most talented electricians ... plumbers ... farmers ... mechanics don't make the most money either. Business management is a separate skill from a trade or service or creative whatever. Being good at both things is pretty rare I think.
> For a while long ago plumbers and electricians were in the same boat that musicians are in - a lot of DIY folks figured they could do their own pipes and wires no need to pay somebody else. Then after a bunch of lobbying building codes and permit processed got changed so that most people are forced to hire out their plumbing/electric/hvac work. Sort of like if a city inspector would come around and shut down your party unless you had hired a licensed band.
> 
> The trades gave up flexibility and creativity in exchange for reliability and public enforcement. I don't know how many musicians want to make that trade.
> 
> j


The difference, to me, is:


If you've called/booked a band for a Saturday evening, that's a 'want'
If you've called/booked a plumber or electrician for a Saturday evening, that's a 'need'

'Needs' nearly always cost a lot more than 'wants'. And we are generally willing to pay it.


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## Sketchy Jeff

The need / want thing is a good point but people pay outrageous money for all kinds of things they want but don't need.

It takes a shift in head space for musicians and event planners to think about live music as valuable financially, not just audience. 

I'm not there yet. I'm putting on a little (socially distant) outdoor show in August with some friends. The music will be good and we'll call attention to our donation bowl but we'll be happy if we cover our direct costs. Would people come if we charged $20 apiece for the evening? I don't know. We joked about it as an option when we were planning but didn't even talk seriously about it ourselves. 

j


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## bw66

I find that many performing musicians don't get paid because they don't ask to get paid. A simple "Is there a budget for entertainment?" can go a long ways towards getting paid or at least sending the message that your product has value. If it's "for a good cause", it is always worthwhile asking for a charitable receipt for a "gift in kind" - which also assigns value to your work (and gives you a small reward at tax time).


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## High/Deaf

Sketchy Jeff said:


> The need / want thing is a good point but people pay outrageous money for all kinds of things they want but don't need.
> 
> It takes a shift in head space for musicians and event planners to think about live music as valuable financially, not just audience.
> 
> I'm not there yet. I'm putting on a little (socially distant) outdoor show in August with some friends. The music will be good and we'll call attention to our donation bowl but we'll be happy if we cover our direct costs. Would people come if we charged $20 apiece for the evening? I don't know. We joked about it as an option when we were planning but didn't even talk seriously about it ourselves.
> 
> j


Another problem, as I see it, is when you need a plumber, there is no virtual 'other option'. You may get a buddy to do it, but good luck with insurance if he is unticketed/non-certified and floods the place (and others around it).

Many people now don't have an appetite for live music or really even appreciate what they're missing (at least IMO - and this has been Neil Y's rant for a bit now with his Pono project). They believe a DJ for $100, or worse, buddy with the big stereo and a whole bunch of mp3 files who'll spin for free, is just as good. Obviously, because of what we do, we disagree with that assessment. But they are harder to convince.

Supply and demand is a bugger. There's as much supply as ever, maybe even more, while demand is largely dropping like a rock. I accept that - especially as I am part of the problem myself in resisting the push to learn any Kanye or Cardi-B or whatever. I like to play what I like to listen to. Not the smartest business move on my part, but I'm not treating it as a business anyways.


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## Sketchy Jeff

High/Deaf said:


> Many people now don't have an appetite for live music ... They believe a DJ for $100, or worse, buddy with the big stereo
> ... There's as much supply as ever, maybe even more, while demand is largely dropping like a rock.


I wonder if times when the general public is willing to pay for music are the exception anyway. 

Back in the day ... way way back in the day ... people didn't want to pay for music either 'cuz the minstrel in the pub would do it for ale and a pile of straw or he had a day job in the quarry. So composers and people who wanted to dedicate themselves full time to music found rich patrons or went to work for the church. Same may be true now. Love it or hate it there are likely more pop/rock bands playing on Sunday mornings than on Saturday nights right now and I know more people with paying gigs as church musicians playing in what amounts to a cover band than I do people who have paying gigs in mid-level local bar bands.

I don't know any musicians who have consistent private or corporate patrons. Maybe we should start looking into that sort of thing. 

Assuming covid lets up some but a vaccine is a ways away there might be some space for small venue bands to get stronger too. Nobody's going to see Bros. Landreth or Royal Canoe in a 1500 seat theater any more or an arena show with 5000 people but we may soon be able to go see a show with a much smaller group of people which means more bands playing if the same number of people want to see some live music. 

j


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## dtsaudio

Back in the day (a very long time ago), i thought about and pursued a career. Played in a few bands that went no where except cheap beer halls.
Tried studio work, which was fun, but thin pickings. I fell in love with theatre work. Pit band stuff. Easy work, clean and if it was a union hall paid well. I would make more doing 4 or 5 shows in a week, than i was at my day job. Too competitive and for the most part I probabaly needed to move to a bigger city to make a living.


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## Budda

Jeff, you're talking about a service that exists - Patreon. It's open to anyone who has something they can sell. Many artists use it to supplement whatever their touring and record sales bring in.


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## Sketchy Jeff

Budda said:


> Jeff, you're talking about a service that exists - Patreon.


Do you use it? Is it worthwhile or is it token pennies for buckets of effort and conditions? I guess that would be the pro/con of a single patron too - they pay your keep but you gotta show up and play yacht rock at the pool party. 

j


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## KapnKrunch

Here's the best advice for a young musician: 

Get a trade. 

Sorry...


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## Budda

Sketchy Jeff said:


> Do you use it? Is it worthwhile or is it token pennies for buckets of effort and conditions? I guess that would be the pro/con of a single patron too - they pay your keep but you gotta show up and play yacht rock at the pool party.
> 
> j


I don't use it, no. Many artists do though. It's the mailing list fan club for the digital age, as far as bands go. Whether it's any good is dependent on the person running the account.


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## Mooh

KapnKrunch said:


> Here's the best advice for a young musician:
> 
> Get a trade.
> 
> Sorry...


Don't be sorry, it's practical advice. Everyone should have a back-up plan, regardless of their primary career choice. 

Years ago I dislocated my right shoulder right before a folk festival where I had a couple of sets with a couple of bands (regular band and some hired gun work). A fellow musician with whom I was acquainted approached me as I sat at a picnic table and he grabbed my shoulder. Before I could say "what the fuck?" he explained he was a medical doctor with a specialty in sports medicine or something like that. Pretty cool when you can make a viable living playing music with medicine as your fall-back position. He reset my shoulder and pain killers (and likely beer in those days) did the rest.


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## KapnKrunch

Mooh said:


> ... a folk festival where I had a couple of sets with a couple of bands (regular band and some hired gun work).


Give us some input on Folk Festivals. It's a thought in my mind as I try to develop a solo act in my retirement. Seems easier than being in a night-time band.


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## Mooh

KapnKrunch said:


> Give us some input on Folk Festivals. It's a thought in my mind as I try to develop a solo act in my retirement. Seems easier than being in a night-time band.







__





Festival Listing :: Folk Music Ontario
 






www.folkmusicontario.ca





Search for house concerts too.


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## bw66

KapnKrunch said:


> Give us some input on Folk Festivals. It's a thought in my mind as I try to develop a solo act in my retirement. Seems easier than being in a night-time band.


I don't remember the name of it off the top of my head, but there is what is essentially a "folk music trade show" in Toronto that you can go to and perform a showcase. Many of the folk clubs and festivals send their artistic directors there to check out and book new acts. I suspect that there are similar events in other centres as well.

Also, if early nights are your goal, talk to your local craft brewers - they are mandated to close by 9 (in Ontario) and most have live, often original, music. Also, retirement and nursing homes can pay surprisingly well for matinees, but for those you want a solid repertoire of standards.


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## KapnKrunch

Mooh said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Festival Listing :: Folk Music Ontario
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.folkmusicontario.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Search for house concerts too.


The house concert circuit on the prairies is exclusive to non-agricultural seasons (i.e. Winter). Nonetheless very active and successful. However they require a commitment of four engagements with a day travel between each gig. Four days on the road in winter. Playing at the bar seems easier than that. Lol.


bw66 said:


> I don't remember the name of it off the top of my head, but there is what is essentially a "folk music trade show" in Toronto that you can go to and perform a showcase. Many of the folk clubs and festivals send their artistic directors there to check out and book new acts. I suspect that there are similar events in other centres as well.
> 
> Also, if early nights are your goal, talk to your local craft brewers - they are mandated to close by 9 (in Ontario) and most have live, often original, music. Also, retirement and nursing homes can pay surprisingly well for matinees, but for those you want a solid repertoire of standards.


No man's land out here Brian. "Craft brewer"? What is that? Lol. My wife plays accordian at the old folks, I guess I could join in on bass, but I really want to feature my own creations somewhere sometime.

What I was wondering really, are the folk festivals worth pursuing? What kind of hassles/rewards are involved. I know people to approach to expand a network if I can get my act together.


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## Mooh

bw66 said:


> I don't remember the name of it off the top of my head, but there is what is essentially a "folk music trade show" in Toronto that you can go to and perform a showcase.


You might be thinking of the former OCFF, Ontario Council of Folk Festivals, which I think evolved into the link I provided above. I went to the annual conference a few times and it was a blast every time. Lots of showcases, workshops, concerts, hobnobbing with musicians and festival admins.


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## bw66

Mooh said:


> You might be thinking of the former OCFF, Ontario Council of Folk Festivals, which I think evolved into the link I provided above. I went to the annual conference a few times and it was a blast every time. Lots of showcases, workshops, concerts, hobnobbing with musicians and festival admins.


Neither of those is the name I can't remember, but you're probably right. :-/


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## Mooh

There's this as well, but I've never attended.









Home


FAI is a global arts nonprofit founded in 1989 to connect folk music leaders aiming to sustain the community and genre worldwide.




folk.org


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## bw66

Mooh said:


> There's this as well, but I've never attended.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Home
> 
> 
> FAI is a global arts nonprofit founded in 1989 to connect folk music leaders aiming to sustain the community and genre worldwide.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> folk.org


That might be it too. My brain is a big disappointment these days.


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## Mooh

This might be of general interest:





__





AcousticMusicScene.com | News & Commentary for the Folk, Roots & Singer-Songwriter Communities







acousticmusicscene.com


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## AJ6stringsting

*I was based out L.A., California 's Sun Set Strip .
We would hit the road for long hauls of 3 months, I got to gig in all lower 48 American states and 6 Canadian Provinces.

Lots of inconveniences, bad food, hours driving, road breakdowns, some bad / good motels .... But man, some of my most cherished memories of my whole life.
I never expected or had illusions of being a star , I just wanted to play music for people to escape everyday life and enjoy life.
I was make enough money, making a living as a musician ; I had a car, full tank of gas, a refrigerator full of food, had no rent worries and great musicians to play with and learn from .... To me, that was success.
One thing, when I traveled through Canada ....fell in love with the Country, the Culture and the Canadian Life style over America's .... especially, loved the culture the Canadian musicians had ....very very unique ....as compared to the Sun Set Strip culture.*


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## Grab n Go

AJ6stringsting said:


> *I was based out L.A., California 's Sun Set Strip .
> We would hit the road for long hauls of 3 months, I got to gig in all lower 48 American states and 6 Canadian Provinces.
> 
> Lots of inconveniences, bad food, hours driving, road breakdowns, some bad / good motels .... But man, some of my most cherished memories of my whole life.
> I never expected or had illusions of being a star , I just wanted to play music for people to escape everyday life and enjoy life.
> I was make enough money, making a living as a musician ; I had a car, full tank of gas, a refrigerator full of food, had no rent worries and great musicians to play with and learn from .... To me, that was success.
> One thing, when I traveled through Canada ....fell in love with the Country, the Culture and the Canadian Life style over America's .... especially, loved the culture the Canadian musicians had ....very very unique ....as compared to the Sun Set Strip culture.*


Cool story! What was the name of your group and what kinda stuff did you play?


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## Grab n Go

Resurrecting this thread because I thought it would be a good spot for this Plini article.

Plini article


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## KapnKrunch

Grab n Go said:


> Resurrecting this thread because I thought it would be a good spot for this Plini article.
> 
> Plini article


Hey! That's not a YouTube video!! I had to READ?!!

Seriously, thanks for a very timely piece. Someone close to me is making a living in post-production and he does what that article suggests -- he contacts artists that he admires and ASKS THEM if he can work on their next song or album. Surprising how positively they respond. To the point of stealing work from industry "legends".


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## Guncho

Yeah we gave it a go then I hit thirty and called it a day. I think we had just lost a drummer or bass player and the thought of going through the whole process of weeding through the crazies from another Now magazine ad, auditioning people and getting gig ready once again were more than I could stomach. Also with new technology, I didn't need a band to write and record songs and put them out there. All i needed was a home PC.


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## Grab n Go

This Rick Beato interview with Tim Pierce is both enlightening and horrifying.


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## Midnight Rider

Grab n Go said:


> Just sharing a video from a Winnipeg-based YouTuber. It kinda hit home for me. I applaud his honesty.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Years ago, I did the recording engineering thing for a while in Toronto. I did some training at Wellesley Sound and worked out of a friend's studio in North York. I count myself lucky that I managed to get any experience at all. No studio that I applied to at the time was accepting interns.
> 
> Long story long, I eventually came to the conclusion that I really just wanted to play guitar, jam and gig around town on occasion. But if I'm being honest, I like jamming more than anything. (With kids, though, it's tough doing any of those things.)
> 
> So I guess I also "failed" at a music career. Or maybe I just took the roundabout way of playing more guitar.
> 
> Has anyone else here dabbled in the music biz? Or maybe you've found your own way in a music career? I'd love to hear your stories.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


Here's my take on it. I along with a group of friends in our twenties had visions of making it in the music business. Sure we had bands like anyone else on the road on the 'B' circuit at first and a few 'A' circuit tours during those years in our neck of the woods in Ontario. We were no different than the next band trying to pay our dues on the road to create a buzz and a following while staying in the 'Cockroach Motels' along the way and eating at every greasy spoon cafe along the route. It was fun,... for about the first 5 years. Then reality started setting in as some members of the band got married and so on. Inevitably things just start to fall apart and everyone goes their separate ways.

So I enrol into a college that teaches recording engineering, record production, song writing and performance. Now, it just so happens at that particular time one of the instructors is renown Canadian record producer Jack Richardson who's work includes 14 albums with the Guess Who, Bob Seger, Alice Cooper, Max Webster, Kim Mitchell, Badfinger, Poco, The Irish Rovers, etc.. Well, let me tell you, Jack did not sugar coat anything and it did not take long for students to quickly realize what the music industry is truly all about and that indeed,... as the song states, "Rock n' Roll is a vicious game". RIP Jack,... gone but not forgotten.

It should also be noted that Jack Richardson is the father of noted music producer Garth Richardson (Rage Against the Machine, Red Hot Chili Peppers, System of a Down).

He also gave Canadian producer Bob Ezrin his start in the industry at Nimbus 9 Studio in Toronto. Bob produced the bands, Pink Floyd, Deep Purple, Peter Gabriel, KISS, Lou Reed, Alice Cooper, Kansas, Julien Lennon, Taylor Swift, Joe Bonamassa, etc.. I filmed Bob a number of years ago at a music event telling his story of when he was trying to convince Jack Richardson to sign and promote Alice Cooper after seeing them perform at a small club in the US. It is hilarious to hear the story so I will put it up on one of the forums here soon.

If you REALLY want it be prepared to sacrifice,... pay your dues,... sacrifice,... then pay some more dues. Then, if you are one of the truly talented and lucky ones you had better read at least one good book on the record industry like 'Hit Men' and have one trustworthy manager and entertainment lawyer on your side,... and don't sign that dotted line before you completely understand every line and clause in that record contract. Then hope and pray that first record sells close to a million copies so the record company recoups the $250,000 to $500, 000 it cost them to make the record.Oh yeah, it's not cheap to engineer and produce that record and capture that magic in a top notch studio so they can sell it for $20 a pop of which the artist will get about a 20 cent royalty per copy at best,... interesting picture eh. Also, did you retain the publishing rights to your material within the contract,... I hope so to some degree.

It looks fairly bleak, but on the bright side one can overcome the many potential pitfalls of a music career if they prepare themselves well in advance to fend off the sharks in the waters of the music industry.

After graduating from that course my eyes were wide open to the potential possibilities I was seeking in the music industry. Initially I looked for work at a reputable recording studio within the province but aside from a short stint as an intern the pickings were slim. So, I had to make a decision on how much I wanted a career in the industry and how far I was willing to go to secure that ambition. Eventually my only choice to keep that dream alive would have been to relocate to a large music centre in the US or Canada which would have kept me from my loved ones for extended periods of time. I remember having conversations with Jack about his journey in the music industry and listening to him tell me about the great family sacrifices he was required to make in order to establish himself as a premier record producer during his time. As I thought of what avenue to take his words would ring in my ears and decided to pass on opportunities I could have taken back then. Like Jack said from time to time while teaching,... "You can't have it all".
It was the right decision for me. But that doesn't mean I gave it all up as I decided to build my own studio and continue to write and record my own material as well as help others achieve their goals whether large or small.

On the other hand, I know an individual who went the full monty and it paid off with great dividends. His name is Stacey Hayden. He was talented and fortunate enough to land a fairly long term position as guitarist for David Bowie. Hard work, talent and determination can indeed create a reputation that precedes you.

Back then if you didn't have a 2" analog 24 multitrack and decent amount of quality outboard gear you were at the mercy of the corporate record companies. Today, every aspiring musician has the luxury of having a decent home studio to at least give them a head start in the game in terms of putting a good demo together to shop around and get the attention of an A&R person. However, you still have to write a good song to pitch and or perform if wanting to take to the stage for a living and live comfortably.

So what the hell does this all mean? I really don't know 100%,... but what I have noticed is sometimes it's a case of luck, timing, gimmick, great talent, not so great talent, dumb luck, connections, simplicity, complexity and sometimes no talent at all but just good looks.

You may not ever get to live the dream and perform live for a living but people who do are always looking for a good song to record and maybe,... just maybe they'll pick yours next, which would be a great achievement in itself. Or just as importantly,... just write and record for yourself and perform your works of art for those who will appreciate it the most.

"You can't always get what you want,... But if you try sometimes you might find, you get what you need".


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## Grab n Go

@Midnight Rider thanks for sharing your story! Lots of great advice there.

The notion of how much one is willing to sacrifice seems to be a common thread. And the path to success is rarely straight-forward.


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## Paul Running

Grab n Go said:


> @Midnight Rider thanks for sharing your story! Lots of great advice there.
> 
> The notion of how much one is willing to sacrifice seems to be a common thread. And the path to success is rarely straight-forward.


From my experience, when it's a hobby I have a different attitude from when it was a living...definitely less pressure on you in hobby mode. I feel more relaxed because the financial factor is not as critical.


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