# Do You Or Your Family Work In The Wholesale, Retail Or Manufacturing Part Of The Industry?



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I am curious as to how many members or thier families we have that work in the sales or manufacturing part of the music industry. If you do and have any stories, experiences you can relate to us, I am sure we would all be interested in hearing them.

NOTE: The poll is NOT public so if this is a concern for you you need not worry about it.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

I dunno. Where do you place Performers, Teachers and Instructors?


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Is this just about instruments?


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

I get enough calls from telemarketers already without having my happy place screwed up with silly questions. Is there a point to this?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Guncho said:


> Is this just about instruments?


 Yes.



Dorian2 said:


> I dunno. Where do you place Performers, Teachers and Instructors?


 This does not apply in this thread/poll.

Yes, this is just about the sale and/or manufacturing of musical equipment, not teaching or instructing.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Chitmo said:


> I get enough calls from telemarketers already without having my happy place screwed up with silly questions. Is there a point to this?


So you can have a melt down, why else?


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

None of the above.

I’m a mercenary under the flag of the green back dollar.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Is this thread open to Canadians?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Chitmo said:


> I get enough calls from telemarketers already without having my happy place screwed up with silly questions. Is there a point to this?


Of course. His ongoing agenda. Trying to educate us stupid marketed-to muso's. 

I wonder though, is anyone more marketed to than someone who constantly shops via utube and manufacturer-printed specs without actual direct experience with said product? The one person who says he is least affected by marketing (there was a thread a couple years ago) is actually the most affected by it, and he doesn't even know it. He's the kind of dupe they just love. Taking in that marketing like oxygen while not even being aware he is being sold to. He even parrots the stuff to the rest of us, acting as a free agent and 2nd hand marketer for all those marketers. OMFG!

I wonder how many 'brand names' are all over his ski equipment? LOL Well, at least he probably actually skis. 


I went to a restaurant the other day and they wanted $35 for prime rib. I bought the $10 hamburger insteadly. It's all just beef, right? There is never any actually difference in product quality ever, anywhere, in any product. Ever. More bloody marketing.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

I would have chosen all three, but it only let me select two. Been in the industry in one way or another for about 20 years now. What do you want to know?


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

High/Deaf said:


> Of course. His ongoing agenda. Trying to educate us stupid marketed-to muso's.
> 
> I wonder though, is anyone more marketed to than someone who constantly shops via utube and manufacturer-printed specs without actual direct experience with said product? The one person who says he is least affected by marketing (there was a thread a couple years ago) is actually the most affected by it, and he doesn't even know it. He's the kind of dupe they just love. Taking in that marketing like oxygen while not even being aware he is being sold to. He even parrots the stuff to the rest of us, acting as a free agent and 2nd hand marketer for all those marketers. OMFG!
> 
> ...


This made my day. 
The best part is that I had a wastefully expensive prime rib roast for Christmas dinner, which just added to the reading pleasure. Merry Christmas to you sir


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

jbealsmusic said:


> I would have chosen all three, but it only let me select two. Been in the industry in one way or another for about 20 years now. *What do you want to know?*


I want to know many, many things. I am curious George's brother, Steadfastly.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

So.....what did you want to know?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Dorian2 said:


> So.....what did you want to know?


best way to appear like he cares, make small talk with Canadian retailers and then post threads on US business promotions and how much cheaper it is to shop across the border


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> I want to know many, many things. I am curious George's brother, Steadfastly.


And here I thought that you were Kellyanne Conway's brother all this time. You certainly get off topic as well as she does.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Dorian2 said:


> So.....what did you want to know?


Let's start with your bank account number.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Are you actually going for something with this thread? I like this site because I get great information on what's available to me as a player. You know, pertinent information on techniques, which type of gear will work for me, experienced insight into components I'm otherwise unaware of that may suit either my sound or info on components that I may want to add to my current gear to make it more suitable to my ear. I also trust a number of great sources of information that I cannot get elsewhere from people who are in different areas of the industry apart from performance. Speaking of performers, that's yet one more great thing about this site. I've been into the live scene for a lot of years, but there are a number of regulars here who regularly perform at a pro level that have a shit ton of really helpful info on backline, room sound, and what to use to mitigate certain factors that may contribute to poor live sound or to enhance a good sound into a great sound. It's also a great source for great used gear, which is something I've tapped into a number of times as well.

I really haven't garnered anything of use with this thread though. I haven't actually heard a question about how people who work in the industry realize their supply demands from people like myself, what kind of regulations or procedures they have to consider to make a good working model for their business, or how the business model they use compares to others in the same industry. Are gear vendors allowed to sell all types of instruments, or are there rules that will prohibit sales due to other sellers in the area? What's a typical purchasing point to which sales can actually make a profit....considering Overhead, store front, number of employees etc. My business acumen is fairly low, so these kind of discussions would clear some preconceived notions I have, and many others to be sure have, on how a business might have to run in order to make a dollar in today's music business.

So what was yer question? And what's the point of your poll? I'm really not getting any answers here. For any type of question I have. For anything apart from a snide and seemingly backhanded remark towards the industry about my bank account info.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

With so few apparently in the retail or mfg. end of the business on this forum you're not likely to get much useful information either. 

As for why I started the poll. I am curious how many are actually in the instrument and/or accessory business. It appears very few. On another forum that I frequent, it is quite different with many in the business and supporters of that forum.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

The possibility that they're too busy doing business and taking care of customers to make a living exists in a smaller market than Canada. That's just a simple guess though..


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Dorian2 said:


> Are you actually going for something with this thread? I like this site because I get great information on what's available to me as a player. You know, pertinent information on techniques, which type of gear will work for me, experienced insight into components I'm otherwise unaware of that may suit either my sound or info on components that I may want to add to my current gear to make it more suitable to my ear. I also trust a number of great sources of information that I cannot get elsewhere from people who are in different areas of the industry apart from performance. Speaking of performers, that's yet one more great thing about this site. I've been into the live scene for a lot of years, but there are a number of regulars here who regularly perform at a pro level that have a shit ton of really helpful info on backline, room sound, and what to use to mitigate certain factors that may contribute to poor live sound or to enhance a good sound into a great sound. It's also a great source for great used gear, which is something I've tapped into a number of times as well.
> 
> I really haven't garnered anything of use with this thread though. I haven't actually heard a question about how people who work in the industry realize their supply demands from people like myself, what kind of regulations or procedures they have to consider to make a good working model for their business, or how the business model they use compares to others in the same industry. Are gear vendors allowed to sell all types of instruments, or are there rules that will prohibit sales due to other sellers in the area? What's a typical purchasing point to which sales can actually make a profit....considering Overhead, store front, number of employees etc. My business acumen is fairly low, so these kind of discussions would clear some preconceived notions I have, and many others to be sure have, on how a business might have to run in order to make a dollar in today's music business.
> 
> So what was yer question? And what's the point of your poll? I'm really not getting any answers here. For any type of question I have. For anything apart from a snide and seemingly backhanded remark towards the industry about my bank account info.


I spent 2 years in the MI business, selling guitar and music related equipment retail to the public. Then another 7 or 8 years, after post-secondary ed, in the pro audio and video business, mostly component-level repairs. But I also built and ran large sound systems, mostly in a venue that sat 20,000 people. If you watched the '88 Olympics, you may have heard some of my 'work'. And I had friends on the road, that I occasionally traveled with and provided technical help through the 'hair metal' decade. These guys took very large, 3 or 4 way PA's on the road and worked the hell out of them. Not to mention the numerous full stacks and large bass rigs and instruments I was involved with repairing and mod'ing. I sold some of these guys the stuff they were using for the decade.

But the OP has me on ignore, so obviously my type of experience isn't what he's looking for. Like you, I have no clue what he really wants. But I do have my speculations, as I've given earlier.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

This thread is pointless.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Budda said:


> This thread is pointless.


I don't think it's pointless, it probably would have come around to bashing Canadian retail, but no one is biting. 
Too many here have long ago figured out the M.O. of the O.P.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Dorian2 said:


> The possibility that they're too busy doing business and taking care of customers to make a living exists in a smaller market than Canada. That's just a simple guess though..


That's entirely possible, but I think there are a lot less than we though and that's too bad. More of their presence here would be a good thing for the forum and for all of us in general.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> That's entirely possible, but I think there are a lot less than we though and that's too bad. More of their presence here would be a good thing for the forum and for all of us in general.


there would be more of them around if people supported local business but since some of us constantly shit on them for having high prices and encourage cross-border shopping I'm not surprised many of them are getting out


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Steadfastly said:


> That's entirely possible, but I think there are a lot less than we though and that's too bad. More of their presence here would be a good thing for the forum and for all of us in general.


Most businesses are not transparent about much because the average public customer either does not or chooses not to understand the situation the business is in. In case you missed them, there have been several long discussions regarding the business side of things on this forum (many of which I've taken part in). A quick search will probably reveal a lot of threads you may find interesting and informative. I'll say again, in case you want to bring up your questions/concerns in this thread, what would you like to know? What information do you think us insiders have that you don't, that you think the forum would benefit from?

I'd like to think of myself as an open book who is very open to sharing what I've learned (good and bad) in my years in the industry. As for why other business owners aren't as open and don't take part in online discussions, here are a few very blunt reasons to consider. These may not be things they would ever say publicly, but you can be sure these represent a couple of very common reasons why they don't take part in public conversations about their business or the industry in general (unless they're speaking in VERY politically-friendly marketable talk.)

*1) The "Bad" Customers* - To be clear, the vast majority of customers are fantastic to deal with. Then there's that tiny minority of customers with the most complaints, most requests, most concerns, most issues, most suggestions, and who request the most discounts. They are ALWAYS (capitalized intentionally for extra emphasis) the customers with the least amount of loyalty, who spend the least money, and who are the first to start bad mouthing your business when they don't get what they want. Frankly, no business wants to deal with customers like that. I didn't want to believe this for years, but tragically I have found it to be true in every business and industry I've worked in. Again, most customers are fantastic to deal with. It's that tiny minority that falls under this category who not only takes up a lot of your time, but also causes the most stress and costs the most money to deal with for the least benefit.

*2) The "Know-It-All" Customers* - Think of the iceberg/island/whatever image. The issues a customer has with a business, whether seen or experienced, are but a minuscule fraction of what is actually behind the problem, and there are most certainly always countless variables the customer is not aware of when they think of those issues. This type of customer oversimplifies (to an extreme degree) every problem/complication/challenge/obstacle that a business has to overcome, and they often talk as if they could do a better job if they were the ones in charge (an attitude that is quite unbecoming, and will undoubtedly make business owners/insiders want to ignore them completely.) We all know people like this in our personal lives. They're akin to the guy who can barely lift a pencil that has no athletic education or experience yelling at the professional athletes on television, telling them what they need to do to win. Again, a very tiny minority of people. They generally also fall into the first category of customer, who generates nothing for the business but expense and stress.

That said, to make it clear again, MOST customers are fantastic to deal with. These are the very rare and tiny minority. Business owners/insiders don't take part in forums because they don't want to run into any of the above types of customers, who tend to be even more zealous with their opinions in this kind of online platform. I don't necessarily agree with them. Or, maybe I do but I'm blindly hopeful that public discussions of the business side of things will positively influence that type of customer behavior in the long term.

*3) They don't want to give ideas to the competition.* The act of running a business is, after all, a form of competition. You don't openly share your successes and failures with others or discuss your future growth plans publicly, lest one of your competitors sees it and capitalizes on the ideas first.

*4) They aren't allowed to be honest, or to even take part in discussions.* I've seen this happen to others and have even experienced this numerous times myself. If you have something good to say about a brand/product you're just a shill, or you're pushing the crap you sell on our sacred forum. If you have something negative to say about a brand/product, you just don't want people buying stuff you don't sell. Your opinion can't be trusted, no matter what. For me personally, that's the most annoying thing to deal with. I've been accused of a lot of stupid crap on this forum and others (even being maliciously insulted and/or abused via constant PMs) when all I'm doing is sharing my honest opinion based on my experience with a product/brand/etc. It's why these days I stay out of a lot of discussions I would otherwise join in on.

*5) The trolls.* Yes, they exist. Here is a copy/paste of an email I once received from a forum member, _"You are pitiful. Mojotone has hundreds colors/textures of tolex, and you have less than 40. And you're more expensive. Sure you guys ship for free, but I can save $10 per yard from Mojotone, and their shipping is very fair. If you wanna stomp with the big dogs you can't piss like a pussy. Stop being a bitch and learn how to run a business, or get out. We don't need crap like you in Canada."_ Inaccuracies aside regarding pricing (our prices are generally on par with Mojotone, and you save a ton on shipping), messages like this aren't exactly welcoming. Most business owners will have seen that and said, "F#@# this forum, I don't have time to deal with this kind of crap." I stay here for the good people and try to ignore the rest.

*6) Lastly, and probably most commonly the reason, music/gear forums and online discussions are just not their thing*. They deal with customer concerns and music gear-talk all freakin' day. The last thing they want to do is spend personal hours online talking about it more, and likely getting into pointless arguments and pissing matches (which let's be honest, is commonplace in online discussions.) They've got a business to run, family to feed, etc. They'd rather spend their free time doing other things. Also, you know what they say about making your hobby your business. A lot of them essentially give up playing music after a while. The act of playing isn't rewarding anymore, it just reminds them of work. I'm sure we've all known a good mechanic with a beater car that he never takes the time to properly repair. Or the construction guy with a ton of home renovations planned that never really get going... The last thing you want to do when you get home from work, is MORE of the same kind of work.

There you have it... Reasons why most people working directly in the industry don't spend a lot of time on forums. Anything more specific you'd like to discuss? I'm all for it.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Thank you.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Forgot to mention also, most business-related discussions require more information to be conveyed than what a brief forum post will allow for... So, even in long threads about business topics only surface level issues are discussed.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

JB, as I've said previously, I am just curious as to how many members here are involved in the equipment side of things. Since there are only 5 votes so far, it looks like very few. If these, as yourself want to provide us additional information, that is great.


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

I think it is really just a bullshit thread, and no one is interested!

not only that, this place gets crawled by google, and anything posted will come up in a search for anyone on the net

I sure wouldn't be volunteering any information


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Steadfastly said:


> JB, as I've said previously, I am just curious as to how many members here are involved in the equipment side of things.


Oh, sorry. Your previous posts seemed to indicate you had further discussion in mind. Examples:


> If you do and have any stories, experiences you can relate to us, I am sure we would all be interested in hearing them.





> More of their presence here would be a good thing for the forum and for all of us in general.


My asking what you want to discuss further was based on those comments.



> Since there are only 5 votes so far, it looks like very few. If these, as yourself want to provide us additional information, that is great.


I would venture to say that given the sample size of this forum, the representation of people who meet your qualifications is likely not too dissimilar from other forums. At 12715 members (at the time I'm writing this), there are likely only a few hundred regularly active users on this forum. 4-5 of them being involved in the industry is actually higher than I would have expected. Compare that to other gear forums which average up to 10X the population, it makes sense that there would be up to 10X the population of industry folks involved there. This is a pretty small forum, all things considered.

Another point I forgot to mention is the vast and variable amount of rules on forums regarding people in the industry. Some forums won't even allow you to post if you represent a business (and they'll ban you if they find out.) Others force you to purchase a special account for the privilege to use the forum, but you can only post in certain areas. Some do not allow you to reference who you are or where you work, no matter what. Others require full disclosure (usually in your signature), but you have the freedom to post anywhere any time, about almost anything.

This one makes you purchase a dealer account and suggests you primarily post in the dealer section. You can take part in other discussions, as long as you're not just promoting the stuff you sell (unless someone else brings your business up, in which case you are allowed to respond.)

As a person in the industry, it's a bit of a headache getting the rules straight if you're trying to take part in several forums.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

jbealsmusic said:


> Oh, sorry. Your previous posts seemed to indicate you had further discussion in mind. Examples:My asking what you want to discuss further was based on those comments.
> 
> I would venture to say that given the sample size of this forum, the representation of people who meet your qualifications is likely not too dissimilar from other forums. At 12715 members (at the time I'm writing this), there are likely only a few hundred regularly active users on this forum. 4-5 of them being involved in the industry is actually higher than I would have expected. Compare that to other gear forums which average up to 10X the population, it makes sense that there would be up to 10X the population of industry folks involved there. This is a pretty small forum, all things considered.
> 
> ...


That was very interesting. Not being in the industry, I didn't know about the rules involving those that are regarding forums. Thanks for the info.

And glad that you are a member here, willing to share your knowledge with us.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

jbealsmusic said:


> Most businesses are not transparent about much because the average public customer either does not or chooses not to understand the situation the business is in.
> 
> [edited for brevity}
> 
> ...


I wasn't going to contribute anything to this thread because it smelled like fishing, but jbealsmusic's post was best stuff I've read on this forum in a long time. I'm a full-time private music teacher and much of this post applies to me too. 

Thanks for your time and effort, jbealsmusic!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Mooh said:


> I wasn't going to contribute anything to this thread* because it smelled like fishing*, but *jbealsmusic's post was best stuff I've read on this forum in a long time*.* I'm a full-time private music teacher and much of this post applies to me too.*
> 
> Thanks for your time and effort, jbealsmusic!


Fishing for what? As I said a couple times previously, Mooh, I am just curious. Can't a person be curious without being accused of some ulterior motive? Many threads hear have asked who sings and plays, who plays in a band, who teaches, etc,, etc. and no one accuses them of some hidden agenda.

As for the thread applying to you, I am sorry it doesn't. If you read it again, I was specific in it applying only to those in the manufacturing or selling of equipment to or in the retail industry.I guess, in retrospect, it would also apply to distributors like Yorkville, Coast Music and others like them.

And, yes, I agree, Jbealsmusic is one of the best posts here in a long time.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> Fishing for what? As I said a couple times previously, Mooh, I am just curious. Can't a person be curious without being accused of some ulterior motive? Many threads hear have asked who sings and plays, who plays in a band, who teaches, etc,, etc. and no one accuses them of some hidden agenda.
> 
> As for the thread applying to you, I am sorry it doesn't. If you read it again, I was specific in it applying only to those in the manufacturing or selling of equipment to or in the retail industry.I guess, in retrospect, it would also apply to distributors like Yorkville, Coast Music and others like them.
> 
> And, yes, I agree, Jbealsmusic is one of the best posts here in a long time.


I'll try to answer your questions in the order asked.

Fishing for contacts. Frankly, my first thought was you were interested in starting a business, but weren't being direct about it.

Yes you can be curious, and I can be suspicious.

I didn't say the thread applied to me, I said the post from jbealsmusic applied to me, even quoted it. Don't be sorry the thread doesn't apply to me, I really don't give a shit.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Mooh said:


> I'll try to answer your questions in the order asked.
> 
> *Fishing for contacts. Frankly, my first thought was you were interested in starting a business, but weren't being direct about it.*
> 
> ...


I am not the kind of person that would do that.

And sorry I misread about your application to the thread. Regards, Steadfastly.


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