# no. more. distortion.



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i'm hoping to find a few of you who can relate to this, and point me in the right direction.

in the 60s and 70s i played through cranked tube amps. the last one was an ampeg half stack. that amp could literally do it all.

for the most part, i was the guitarist/singer is a "power trio".

then, in the 80s, i started playing in more sophisticated bands with vocalists and keyboard players, and had to turn down. around this time, the rockman was created, and that event lead me down the path of believing i was getting tone from a pedal. with the gain knob cranked.

as a result, everything i played and, especially, recorded, during the late 80s, 90s and up until way too recently is distorted mush.

in the meantime, i kept hearing about players who use mild overdrives, clean boosts etc, like the xotic pedals (for example) to push their tube amps into the highly revered power tube saturation.

recently, i got rid of all my o/d boxes except two (hot british and plush extreme creme) and turned the gain knobs waaaaay down on those remaining two.

but i'm still not happy. the sound of processed o/d has become noise to my ears.

i want sustain. bloom. grit. 

i do realize that at least some of that comes from playing technique - tone is in the fingers - and i work very hard at that, often dispensing with the pick and using the meat of my thumb and fingers.

i probably need to start hunting down a klon and/or a tim. never tried either.

i play strats and teles through a traynor ycv15blue.

the pedal board has a dd20 in the fx loop, and a barber tone press, along with the aforementioned o/d pedals.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Interesting.

I've mostly enjoyed single coil guitars too, Teles especially, but two of my favourite guitars are the Tele Deluxe (now gone) and the Godin LG, partly because the distortion is smoother and cleaner when fed by those humbuckers, and the cleans are quite nice. In that light, perhaps a guitar with singlecoils and a humbucker option is workable. For that I like the LG because it has coil taps and the Belmont because it has 2 lipstick tube pickups and a humbucker (all Seymour Duncans). Into the YCV50blue they're divine, but not all ears and touch are alike, so what works for me is not necessarily going to work for you. For distortion I actually prefer the amp, but I often use a Marshall Gov'nor or a Seymour Duncan Lava Box. I've been steering well away from compression lately.

Question. Is your speaker stock? It can make a serious difference.

Peace, Mooh.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

I'm gonna have to recommend you try the Timmy. I spent 5 hours with mine yesterday through the Plexi Patch on my Axe Fx. 5 hrs with one setting and one pedal gave me every tone I needed. I have to give credit to the Timmy for allowing me to do so. If I needed boost for solo, the Timmy provided almost infinite sustain with the guitar volume full out, and added a nice amount of drive with guitar volume down 50%.

A mainstay pedal on my board is the MI Audio Blues Pro. Its a great pedal and more readily available then the Timmy. Either pedal would sound great though the traynor.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Could you list a couple of 'reference' tones that? One that I love is Hendrix's clean tone on Little Wing. Lots of discussion on how that tone was achieved - to me, its a Strat through a Marshall turned way up, but with the volume backed off on the guitar. Obviously these days its kinda unrealistic to crank a 100W Marshall, but I"m wondering if you could try something similar with your smaller amp ie the amp way up to get into power tube saturation, but back the guitar off. I just watched a documentary with Eddie Kramer discussing how he and Hendrix worked in the studio. He said that a lot of those classic tones, and his range of tones, were frequently found by turning the amp way up and dialing in the tone via the guitar volume.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Unless the tune deliberately and specifically calls for a searing fuzz, I think far too many players use far too much distortion. I don't have anything against distortion - I've probably got over 30 of the damn things - but I suspect people are making judgments about distortion based on _playing on their own_, and then mistakenly porting those settings over to the band context where they make less sense.

If I'm playing on my own, I want things to sound huge. And a distortion (more specifically, MORE distortion) will accomplish that at low volumes. Part of what makes it sound huge is the amount of barely assignable harmonic content, which is demanding and dizzying for the ears/brain to process. I emphasize _barely_ assignable. There has to be some order and categorization of the harmonic content for things to sound like chords and strings, etc. If it is thoroughly unassignable, then it is just noise. Once multiple instruments enter into the fray, each with their own harmonic content - especially at higher volumes where coding at the cochlear level becomes less precise - the same amount of guitar-generated harmonic content which is tolerable at noodling-around levels, using one guitar, becomes simply impossible for the human hearing system to manage in the midst of all that other stuff. In a word - in David's word - "mush".

So, for me, fundamentally it is a matter of tailoring the amount of extra harmonic content to the specific context. Some folks think of this in terms of specific kinds of pedals, allowing the pedal to forcibly set the limits on clarity for them. But I suspect you could still practice self-restraint even if you had a Fuzz face or Big Muff plugged in. Just turn the pedal gain down, and ease up on the guitar volume until you really need it.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Shouldn't be too hard to get that YCV15 to blossom. First thing I'd do is look at the speaker, as Mooh mentioned. I'd stick a G12H-30, a Greenback or a V30 in there. The V30 is a bit brighter sounding than the other two, so it depends what you're going for.

Then, I'd set the gain and volume to the point where it just starts to overdrive. For more driven sounds, slap a Tubescreamer in front with the gain turned all the way down, or just shy of that and the volume anywhere between 1 o'clock and full up. That should push your already slightly overdriven tube into some nice creamy overdrive with lots of sustain.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

bagpipe said:


> Could you list a couple of 'reference' tones that? One that I love is Hendrix's clean tone on Little Wing. Lots of discussion on how that tone was achieved - to me, its a Strat through a Marshall turned way up, but with the volume backed off on the guitar. Obviously these days its kinda unrealistic to crank a 100W Marshall, but I"m wondering if you could try something similar with your smaller amp ie the amp way up to get into power tube saturation, but back the guitar off. I just watched a documentary with Eddie Kramer discussing how he and Hendrix worked in the studio. He said that a lot of those classic tones, and his range of tones, were frequently found by turning the amp way up and dialing in the tone via the guitar volume.


...uhhh...jeff beck and...uhh...jeff beck.

i have tried this with my amp, but it gets too loud too easily, and i just end feeling that this is not the amp for that kind of tone. i'd like to check out the traynor dark horse and egnater tweaker, among others.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

I like using an attenuator. Gain knob way down, volume, well, cranked right up. No pedals, roll the guitar volume up for break up, roll back for clean. And the attenuator keeps the darn thing at a decent overall volume.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

..the ycv15blue has a celestion speaker in it - i think its a red coat, or something equally brit. anything higher than 10:00 o'clock is just too loud.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

dwagar said:


> I like using an attenuator. Gain knob way down, volume, well, cranked right up. No pedals, roll the guitar volume up for break up, roll back for clean. And the attenuator keeps the darn thing at a decent overall volume.


...doesn't an attenuator mess with your tone, especially the high end?


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> I'm gonna have to recommend you try the Timmy. I spent 5 hours with mine yesterday through the Plexi Patch on my Axe Fx. 5 hrs with one setting and one pedal gave me every tone I needed. I have to give credit to the Timmy for allowing me to do so. If I needed boost for solo, the Timmy provided almost infinite sustain with the guitar volume full out, and added a nice amount of drive with guitar volume down 50%.
> 
> A mainstay pedal on my board is the MI Audio Blues Pro. Its a great pedal and more readily available then the Timmy. Either pedal would sound great though the traynor.


...are there other, similar pedals? are these what are called "clean boost" pedals, or "mild" overdrive?


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

I have had the appreciation for the Tim/Timmy pedal based on what I have experienced with the Danelectro Transparent OD ver1 which I believe is a "clone" of the tim pedals as per people's experiences a/bing the pedals. Since I've gotten the Traynor Dark Horse, I've only been using the TOD for my dist/od or should I say boost.

I think you should try the Traynor Dark Horse amp. The amp is very versatile as it has 3 voicings (brit, us and pure which bypasses the tone stack) and it can go from 15 watts with the 6v6s to 2 watts using a 12au7. With the Gain and Master Volume controls, you are able to dial up the kind of OD you like. Only thing it is missing from your YCV15 is the effects loop and reverb.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...doesn't an attenuator mess with your tone, especially the high end?


Generally speaking yes but if you use a Ho's Attentuator it doesn't really. I picked one up at his shop in Vancouver and it blows every other attentuator away. Ho uses fixed attenuation with re-amping as I understand it. So my unit can handle up to a 50W amp with any speaker load and it re-amplifies it to a max of 10W. I also have a bedroom switch on it to reduce to re-amping to approx 2 watts. There is also a Plexi switch on mine - which is basically a bright switch. I never use it. Sounds amazing. I can get cranked tones at talking levels. Total cost was around $280-300. If you call him up he will build you one to whatever specs you want and quote you a price. Worth checking out.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Chito said:


> I have had the appreciation for the Tim/Timmy pedal based on what I have experienced with the Danelectro Transparent OD ver1 which I believe is a "clone" of the tim pedals as per people's experiences a/bing the pedals. Since I've gotten the Traynor Dark Horse, I've only been using the TOD for my dist/od or should I say boost.
> 
> I think you should try the Traynor Dark Horse amp. The amp is very versatile as it has 3 voicings (brit, us and pure which bypasses the tone stack) and it can go from 15 watts with the 6v6s to 2 watts using a 12au7. With the Gain and Master Volume controls, you are able to dial up the kind of OD you like. Only thing it is missing from your YCV15 is the effects loop and reverb.


...yeah, i'm very concerned about the lack of an fx loop.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Stratin2traynor said:


> Generally speaking yes but if you use a Ho's Attentuator it doesn't really. I picked one up at his shop in Vancouver and it blows every other attentuator away. Ho uses fixed attenuation with re-amping as I understand it. So my unit can handle up to a 50W amp with any speaker load and it re-amplifies it to a max of 10W. I also have a bedroom switch on it to reduce to re-amping to approx 2 watts. There is also a Plexi switch on mine - which is basically a bright switch. I never use it. Sounds amazing. I can get cranked tones at talking levels. Total cost was around $280-300. If you call him up he will build you one to whatever specs you want and quote you a price. Worth checking out.


...sounds good. i could sell a couple of o/d pedals to pay for it.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

DH- you mentioned clean boost up above-
what about trying a rangemaster style boost? hundreds of variants out there-
im using a germanium rangemaster style pedal, that has a treble boost or full boost knob.
what it does is drives the amp hard, causing it to distort a bit, but not like a distortion or overdrive.
it doesnt work very well if youre not cranking the amp, but when you are it gives a bit more dirt, bloom and sustain,
but retains the guitars sound- i use strats and teles too, works nice with single coils.
i found that mine provides just the right amount of meat to the sound- not a distorted sound per se, but a nice throaty sound.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

If you're trying for dumble style sustain vs. distortion, one thing I find more helpful than the gain knob on my OD pedals is the volume knob. I set my amp up so it has a tiny bit of hair, then the OD and/or boost slams the front end into creaminess. Also, treble is our friend.


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

Dave,,,time to re-visit a Fender blackface type of amp. I'm willing to bet, you would love a good Deluxe Reverb, along with a mild boost pedal, like a Zendrive, or Bad Monkey, with gain turned down. Heck, the Deluxe could do it by itsef if you could crank it, and use the volume on the guitar. I was like you, using every cool pedal to get lots of different distortion, but ther older I get, the more I appreciate a good tube tone, and nothing sounds better with a Fender guitar, than a Fender amp.

CT.


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

P90s into a Fender brown face driven wide open....turn the guitar to ten it will sustain for days, with just enough distortion to excite but still be clear...back off to about 6 or 7 on the guitar and everytrhing cleans right up with that loose Hendrix type of tone like on Wind Cries Mary.....just a hint of overall volume drop too, because the extra gain from the guitar is being clipped so when you turn down you just lose the parts above clipping (if that makes sense). Best guitar amp sound I ever heard.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Hi David,

Before the thread goes off into a general "what sounds good" discussion that is irrelevant to your situtation . . .

I would highly recommend a Catlinbread DLS. It is truly amp like and sounds amazing when ran into a clean amp. The key point is to keep the distortion at about 1-2 O'Clock and let your picking dynamics and guitar's volume clean up or get dirty. This is my go to pedal for medium levels of dirt. I treat the pedal like an amp and run solo boosts and fuzz into it; it sounds just like cranking an amp (but don't overdo the dirt level on the DLS).

For just a bit of dirt, nothing beats the Timmy. With my old Traynors, I prefer the Timmy to the Klon (and it is much cheaper too!). On a Fender amp, I prefer the Klon.

Attenuators are great, but you need to spend a lot of money. I have tried almost all of them. The Aracom is the best but it costs nearly $700 and is the size of a head! Seriously, try the DLS; it sounds amazing and is better than an attenautor for low level practicing stuff too.

TG


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

mrmatt1972 said:


> If you're trying for dumble style sustain vs. distortion, one thing I find more helpful than the gain knob on my OD pedals is the volume knob. I set my amp up so it has a tiny bit of hair, then the OD and/or boost slams the front end into creaminess. Also, treble is our friend.


...by this i assume you mean that the volume knob is boosted as opposed to being set at "unity gain"? doesn't this mean that when you turn off the o/d pedal, there is a dramatic decrease in level?

i use a lot of treble, as well.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

Stratin2traynor said:


> Generally speaking yes but if you use a Ho's Attentuator it doesn't really. I picked one up at his shop in Vancouver and it blows every other attentuator away. Ho uses fixed attenuation with re-amping as I understand it. So my unit can handle up to a 50W amp with any speaker load and it re-amplifies it to a max of 10W. I also have a bedroom switch on it to reduce to re-amping to approx 2 watts. There is also a Plexi switch on mine - which is basically a bright switch. I never use it. Sounds amazing. I can get cranked tones at talking levels. Total cost was around $280-300. If you call him up he will build you one to whatever specs you want and quote you a price. Worth checking out.


Yes, I think any attenuator changes the tone a bit. A Hotplate has both a deep and a bright switch. Or, you can turn a knob on the amp. I think the room you're playing in affects the tone anyway, so I generally adjust the tone in the first song or two. You aren't going to duplicate full crank tone - your speakers won't break up. But you can sure get the output tubes running. Depends on what you're chasing I guess. I dislike pedals, but they do have their place.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i'll definitely check these out.

but, i think i'm going to go amp shopping first. in fact, i debated whether this thread should have been posted in the amp forum, instead of here.





traynor_garnet said:


> Hi David,
> 
> Before the thread goes off into a general "what sounds good" discussion that is irrelevant to your situtation . . .
> 
> ...


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

dwagar said:


> Yes, I think any attenuator changes the tone a bit. A Hotplate has both a deep and a bright switch. Or, you can turn a knob on the amp. I think the room you're playing in affects the tone anyway, so I generally adjust the tone in the first song or two. You aren't going to duplicate full crank tone - your speakers won't break up. But you can sure get the output tubes running. Depends on what you're chasing I guess. I dislike pedals, but they do have their place.


...i have to wonder if speaker breakup is desirable.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

david henman said:


> ...by this i assume you mean that the volume knob is boosted as opposed to being set at "unity gain"? doesn't this mean that when you turn off the o/d pedal, there is a dramatic decrease in level?
> 
> i use a lot of treble, as well.


Not necessarily. If your amp is already breaking up, slamming the front end can just add more grit and sustain without any real volume boost. Depends on the amp, though.

Also, you don't necessarily have to crank it all the way. I set one of my TS9s to about 1 or 2 o'clock on the volume with the gain backed off all the way. My Marshall is already overdriving by itself and kicking on the Tubescreamer gives it a bit more girth and sizzle, as well as sustain for days.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Speaker distortion *can be* a very desireable aspect of a distorted sound....cranked Marshall thru Greenbacks being one prime example.

YCV15 has a really great reputation for being a good sounding amp....what is it you're missing in your sound, or wanting to sound like? I know you mentioned it maybe being too loud, you aren't going to find much in a lower powered amp that can give you that sound - so then you're back to pedals again...or not, I'm getting confused. Attenuator was previously mentioned, I would think if the amp sounds *right*, that would be the way to go.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...more than anything, i'm seeking a different approach to overdrive. and, i think, striving for more power tube saturation, as opposed to pedal or preamp distortion. i'd like to try a couple of amps like the traynor dark horse and the egnator tweaker, along with a couple of clean boosts and mild, transparent overdrives. i'm happy with the pedals i have (tonebone hot british, plush extreme creme), but would like to restrict their use as much as possible.




keto said:


> Speaker distortion *can be* a very desireable aspect of a distorted sound....cranked Marshall thru Greenbacks being one prime example.
> 
> YCV15 has a really great reputation for being a good sounding amp....what is it you're missing in your sound, or wanting to sound like? I know you mentioned it maybe being too loud, you aren't going to find much in a lower powered amp that can give you that sound - so then you're back to pedals again...or not, I'm getting confused. Attenuator was previously mentioned, I would think if the amp sounds *right*, that would be the way to go.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Any additional harmonic content acquired at any point in the signal path automatically becomes part of the "input signal" for all subsequent points in the signal path.

If I have enhanced the harmonic content by some means at point A, and then feed a hot version of A to point B, then B will add harmonic content to the harmonic content already existing in the signal. This is one of the reasons why many people swear by power tube, as opposed to front-end, distortion. Not only is the distortion produced slightly differently, but the balance of harmonic content is more pleasing by virtue of not being harmonics of harmonics of harmonics.

This is why a good booster pedal has a means to trim back on treble content. Overdriving a subsequent stage with a bright signal elicits harmonics of harmonics. If you've ever plugged one distortion (set to distort) into another, you know that the result is "interesting" as a brief effect, but not the sort of thing you'd listen to for an entire song.

So, when somebody extracts wads of clipping out of the front end of their amp, and then runs the power section in a manner to produce lots of volume, *using* that distorted input signal, you're hearing power stage clipping, but you're also hearing power stage clipping of an already distorted signal. The balance of harmonics may be very different than what sounds pleasant, or coherent to the ear.

Indeed, when people talk about "warmth" in a distorted sound, or "woman tone", or whatever, frequently they are alluding to a rig that shaves off enough top end on the output (or has enough top end shaved off along the way), that the harmonics of harmonics which make things sound "brittle" are removed. Why on earth do you think Fender and so many others use 250k pots for SC pickups? The intent is to load down the pickups, and lose some of that top end, so that when the amp is pushed hard it won't produce harmonics of harmonics of harmonics. That's the same reason why so many players dime their amps and ease the guitar volume control back to get their tone; with the volume rolled backyou get extra loading and "rounding off" of the signal to produce a less strident overdrive at the amp output.

Ultimately, it involves planning out and managing the progression of the signal through the entire path from pickup to speaker, so that one accumulates only the harmonic content you *want*.


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## GuyB (May 2, 2008)

If I understand right, mhammer, if I don't want to produce much of harmonics of harmonics of harmonics, like you say, but a nice overdrive, I should dial the 3 controls on my Traynor like this : the gain as low as possible, the volume channel as low as possible and the master volume at full strenght... and the guitar volume rolled down ?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Not necessarily, but that is one way. It is the_ cumulative _generation of harmonic content you need to be vigilant about. Rolling back the guitar volume (or tone), or using a clean booster that lets you dial back the treble, starts you off on the right track, such that the entire signal path will be more tolerant of adding a bit of gain later on. If your guitar signal, or whatever hits the amp at the input jack, is already bright for one reason or another, then dialing in more gain will accentuate that brightness and make it sound harsher, rather than just brighter.

Your desired tone may well BE a joint product of distortion added at each of several way-stations - pedals preamp, power-amp, speaker - and there is no reason why that has to sound bad. But be aware, or rather give yourself an opportunity to discover, where the signature component of your desired tone is mostly coming from. Some folks do like pre-amp sizzle, and that's fine. If you are going to crank the preamp gain AND the master volume, though, in order to play loud, realize that you will be distorting the power stage with an already distorted preamp stage. In such circumstances, you may get more of what you like by simply dialing back the preamp gain, rather than diming it, and bringing up the master.

make sense?


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

david henman said:


> ...by this i assume you mean that the volume knob is boosted as opposed to being set at "unity gain"? doesn't this mean that when you turn off the o/d pedal, there is a dramatic decrease in level?
> 
> i use a lot of treble, as well.


Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I work around that by having a boost available for my clean sound. i'll make a quick video once this sudden thunderstorm passes.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

GuyB said:


> If I understand right, mhammer, if I don't want to produce much of harmonics of harmonics of harmonics, like you say, but a nice overdrive, I should dial the 3 controls on my Traynor like this : the gain as low as possible, the volume channel as low as possible and the master volume at full strenght... and the guitar volume rolled down ?


I almost always set up my amps that way. It's not scientific, like Mark's explanation....I just know it sounds (often, not saying every single time) best to me. Master up, channel down, tone knobs to taste and away you go. Gets you more headroom, which is fairly obviously a trait much looked for on forums like this....and just sounds....good. I've converted my son and a friend of mine to the same mindset after getting them to experiment.


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## GuyB (May 2, 2008)

Thanks for the infos. I guess I'm in for some experimentations !


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I work around that by having a boost available for my clean sound. i'll make a quick video once this sudden thunderstorm passes.


...ya got me thinkin'!

i have a radial tonebone BigShot™ PB1 class-A power booster that might be just the ticket for this. i'll give it a try this weekend. crank it and leave it on full time:

http://www.tonebone.com/re-bigshot-pb1.htm


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

david henman said:


> ...ya got me thinkin'!
> 
> i have a radial tonebone BigShot™ PB1 class-A power booster that might be just the ticket for this. i'll give it a try this weekend. crank it and leave it on full time:
> 
> Radial BigShot PB1 power booster and buffer with VariBoost™


I think the next piece of the puzzle for me will be to add a compressor. I'll keep you posted.


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## Greg Ellis (Oct 1, 2007)

I've been quite pleased with the Sparkle Drive. On top of a decent tube screamer type overdrive, it gives me the opportunity to blend in my unaffected signal, along with some degree of boost, if I want it.

Into a relatively clean amp, it gives a lot of flexibility. 

I find that the blend function is the key feature - it lets me add back a lot of the character that a regular tube screamer strips out of the signal.

There are other ways to do blending, of course, but most are not nearly as simple as this design.

I like it enough that I'm now looking into other similar ideas - the Barber Tone Press, for example.


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