# Part Time Schooling.



## danielSunn0))) (Dec 28, 2015)

Does anyone know a place/course in Ontario (preferably GTA and as far North as Barrie) where there's schooling or PT classes to learn electrical engineering to the extent of amp and pedal building? Probably be specified to radio, but same area.. I know a lot of stuff can just be learned through trial and error, although some error in the amp building world could be deadly... I really am doing a lot of research on my own to get into this sort of thing, but it would be cool to learn under a teacher or individual who really knows what they're doing. Thanks all!!


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## PTWamps (Aug 5, 2016)

Sorry, I can't answer your question directly, but I learned repair and building through a few useful sources that might be of use to you until you find the right instructor:

A good starter guide is Dave Hunter's The Tube Amp Handbook. Hunter assumes no prior knowledge and takes you step by step through the circuits of classic amps, and there's a basic build project at the end of the book. I've moved on from this, but it was where I started. 

Jack Darr's Electric Guitar Amplifier Handbook (published 1972) is a more in-depth and technical discussion of tube amp circuitry and troubleshooting. Darr seems to assume readers have basic electrical training -- doesn't hand-hold you the way Hunter does -- but once you pick up speed there's a lot to learn here. 

This link has old radio and amp techical training manuals. Some of the old military manuals about tube theory are still relevant -- and taught from, literally, a basic training perspective. Technical books online

I also like Gerald Weber's dissection of a BF Fender Deluxe in this video. It's about repairing not building, but there's much to be learned: 




You do need to learn the safety precautions and how to drain and test for high voltage, but once you do, there's no reason to be unduly fearful of working on amps.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

I can only speak for myself but I went to college and received two diplomas 
in Electronics and Instrumentation before I began my career. It was instrumental in giving me the basics I needed to know. 
I was in the industry for a few years before I took a serious interest in tube amp repair. 
Getting a good handle on the basic theory is important as well as hands-on knowledge.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Any university with electrical engineering would possibly let you take their first year electric circuits course. That would put you way past the theory you'd need for amps. Unfortunately in the academic world tube circuits are nothing more than a historical footnote. Your best bet is to study old literature, and practice on as many cheap projects as you can.

I'm currently cutting my teeth on a pair of old Pepco amps, and a silverface Fender.

I have a more formal education in the field than many amp techs, but it's all still new to me. I have a Bachelor of Technology in Applied Science, and a Diploma in Civil Engineering.


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## sammyr (May 7, 2013)

As far as schools go it's pretty tricky given the obsolescence of tubes. I'm 28 so I sorted missed the boat on being able to learn a lot of the stuff in school (not to mention i got a business degree...kicks self in butt). I started with a soldering iron and pedal kits to learn the mechanics of proper soldering and whatnot.

A great resource for me has been the local library (believe it or not) many actually have books by gerald webber and other authors who talk specifically about tube guitar amps. Another thing I found very useful their electronics textbooks. there are plenty of easy to digest electronics textbooks that teach the fundamentals of electronic theory and things like reading schematics. I second PTWamps recommendations on books they are all good reads.

Another thing you can do is look for amp techs in your area and ask if you can hang around the shop. you'd be surprised how nice some of them (or how rude they are). As well, if you have specific questions about certain circuits, don't be shy about looking up the designers and getting in touch. Even big names like Mike Swart, or Mike Fortin are quite approachable guys and if they have the time are usually happy to chat.

To sum up, practicing soldering on low voltage applications is a great way to get the mechanics of it. building pedals from kits is great practice as well. old textbooks for electronic theory, specialty books by weber, darr etc and mentoring from an established tech are all things you can do to kickstart your journey into the world of amp tinkering. Good luck and have fun, you're about to open a pandoras box of fun projects. I hope for your sake you have a storage room and a forgiving significant other.


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## sammyr (May 7, 2013)

oh also. R.G. Keen. R.G. KEEN! Tube Amplifier Debugging Page


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## sammyr (May 7, 2013)

another way to skin the cat is to get a job as a bench tech at yorkville sound. although you will need an EE diploma to be considered I believe. That's one of the few places in Canada where you can get proper corporate job in the business. Unfortunately the bulk of the stuff you'd be doing would be solid state. That's what I remember Guy Beresford at Yorkville telling me a year or so ago when we spoke.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

If you do (eventually) decide to build a tube amp in order to learn through building, I would highly recommend starting with a high quality kit. Sourcing all of the correct parts on your own for a build was no joy at all for me. The same with pedals...start with a kit and get your soldering skills honed. 
Very wise advice by the previous posters, IMO. 

Believe it or not, I found the Dummies book "Electronics for Dummies" to be excellent for early reading on the topic of electronics in general.


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## PTWamps (Aug 5, 2016)

greco said:


> Sourcing all of the correct parts on your own for a build was no joy at all for me. ....


I'll never forget the first time I walked into my local electronics parts dealer and asked for turret boards, can caps, and terminal strips. They looked at me like I was HG Wells just stepped out of a time capsule. 



sammyr said:


> Good luck and have fun, you're about to open a pandoras box of fun projects. I hope for your sake you have a storage room and a forgiving significant other.


Yup. Down the rabbit hole you go!


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

I still remember the tube tester at Wackid Radio here in town. By the time I went to College in the '80's though, tubes had been off the program for a couple of years. That part of my education I had to learn myself although I had worked in computer CRT monitor and television repair shops for several years which helped.


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## sammyr (May 7, 2013)

At least my grandma gets a real kick out of seeing whats in my shop. Everytime she sees a tube she goes I REMEMBER THOSE!


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

Lots tubes in my basement too. I taught myself amp repair and build mostly. Lots of reading and practicing. Started with pedal kits. Then a Trinity 5E3 kit. Then 3 more vintage Fender tweed kits. A 5f1 and 2 5F2A amps. Followed by lots more reading. The Dave Hunter book is a good one. I also found the complete sets of "Basics Of Electricity" and "Basics Of Electronics" by Nooger and Neville were excellent books. When doing an amp kit the important thing to remember is to not build it like a paint by numbers project. You should be researching every part, knowing what it is and its purpose in the circuit.
I went on to repair amps for local musicians from there and started collecting my own vintage amps. At one time I had amassed 10 vintage Fender amps that I found sick and in need of repair. Needless to say the prices were very low. I went through every one of the amps and fixed them all. More experience gained. I learned a lot and now I have a killer collection of vintage amps. I tend to be a Fender fanatic so I prefer to work on those. I stay away from PCB. So I'm pretty much limited in my skills. I have been collecting tools along the way and now have a CRT oscilloscope, a signal generator, 2 tube testers, an ESR meter, DMM and soldering station, and lots more smaller stuff. I get by.

A proper formal education would certainly be much better. However I'm having fun. I'm on the path that chose for myself. Good luck with your journey however you get there.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

keithb7 said:


> Lots tubes in my basement too. I taught myself amp repair and build mostly. Lots of reading and practicing. Started with pedal kits. Then a Trinity 5E3 kit. Then 3 more vintage Fender tweed kits. A 5f1 and 2 5F2A amps. Followed by lots more reading. The Dave Hunter book is a good one. I also found the complete sets of "Basics Of Electricity" and "Basics Of Electronics" by Nooger and Neville were excellent books. When doing an amp kit the important thing to remember is to not build it like a paint by numbers project. You should be researching every part, knowing what it is and its purpose in the circuit.
> I went on to repair amps for local musicians from there and started collecting my own vintage amps. At one time I had amassed 10 vintage Fender amps that I found sick and in need of repair. Needless to say the prices were very low. I went through every one of the amps and fixed them all. More experience gained. I learned a lot and now I have a killer collection of vintage amps. I tend to be a Fender fanatic so I prefer to work on those. I stay away from PCB. So I'm pretty much limited in my skills. I have been collecting tools along the way and now have a CRT oscilloscope, a signal generator, 2 tube testers, an ESR meter, DMM and soldering station, and lots more smaller stuff. I get by.
> 
> A proper formal education would certainly be much better. However I'm having fun. I'm on the path that chose for myself. Good luck with your journey however you get there.


I started with a my formal education, and teaching digital electronics labs at my university. Then I opened up my Valve Jr and realized how rediculously simple a Class A amp really is. 

Then I bought my Pepco amps to fix and got into more complicated stuff there. Now I have my SFSR to work on, and have worked on a friend's HRD for him. I intend to keep working on my own stuff and buying and selling. 

Eventually I'd like to get a little Shop set up to work on others for some side work. I'll need some more tools and practice before that though. 

I'm lucky in the way that I can learn incredible amounts of things from simply studying the things I am passionate about. It's the same way I became the go to guy in our town for wiring engine swaps on older Hondas.


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## PTWamps (Aug 5, 2016)

keithb7 said:


> When doing an amp kit the important thing to remember is to not build it like a paint by numbers project. You should be researching every part, knowing what it is and its purpose in the circuit.


This is a great piece of advice.



keithb7 said:


> I tend to be a Fender fanatic so I prefer to work on those. I stay away from PCB. So I'm pretty much limited in my skills. I have been collecting tools along the way and now have a CRT oscilloscope, a signal generator, 2 tube testers, an ESR meter, DMM and soldering station, and lots more smaller stuff. I get by.


Like you, I much prefer the handwired stuff but I got thrown into PCB a few months ago when a local music shop desperate for a tech started sending me a bunch of jobs -- Peaveys, SWRs, and other "average consumer" type of stuff. It's been a bit of a learning curve diagnosing all those robo-soldered crowded little circuits -- but fun, too; although that type of amp only reaffirms my love of the older Traynors, Fenders and Marshalls.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

danielSunn0))) said:


> where there's schooling or PT classes to learn electrical engineering to the extent of amp and pedal building?


Could you be more specific? If you are thinking of an engineering degree, then I think you are talking more about designing than just building. 
Are you talking about building things for yourself, or going to work for a major amp manufacturer?


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## sammyr (May 7, 2013)

JB makes a good point. there's a big difference between what you need to get hired at a major manufacturer and what you need to get started building kits and whatnot for your own use. Most major manufacturers will want you to have an EE degree. 

Another author I remembered who is great for learning the fundamentals of electronics is Forrest Mims. He's done some great books on learning electronics with no formal background in it.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

A good point.....What you're going to do with it is key!

There are two rules of thumb when you start repairing equipment for others IMHO. One is an understanding of the basic theory so you know what's happening with the circuit and the other is experience. There is a BIG difference between tinkering at home building projects for yourself and being a repair depot. The latter has significantly more responsibility. If you take on stuff you don't understand and f*ck up, you'll wear that...and sometimes for a long time if you piss off enough customers. 
There are other issues to consider as well.....
I have commercial insurance in my home....not just for fire/assets loss but also liability which includes personal injury. (ie someone bringing something for repair and slipping on my sidewalk). 
Ultimately, it depends what type of work you want to do and more importantly, for whom.


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

All valid points. Locally a musician wanted me to work on his $3,000 Soldano. I said no a couple of times. He convinced me to give it a try. He brought it to me and I opened it up. All PCB guts. The job involved potentially exposing PCB traces and adding wires to mod the amp. I listened to my gut. I promptly reassembled the amp and asked him to come pick it up. No way was I gonna potentially screw up that amp. Yet I bought a dead, old crusty 1959 Tweed Twin. It is worth multiple times more than the Soldano. I troubleshot and fixed it myself. However there are 2 key differences. 1. The Twin was mine. If I screw it up, I live with the consequences. 2. No PCB construction, good old hand built on a fibre circuit board.

The like saying goes. "Know your limit, stay within it". I did.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

AND you have an original Tweed Twin!!!! 40 watt or 80 watt version? (The date would suggest 80 watts)


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

Yup. Dec 1959 build. SN A00714. One of the last few ever built.


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

Makes me nervous seeing liquid beverages on a tweed.


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

Ha ha. Yes I did that just to be an idiot. The cans came out of the beer fridge. Unopened, they were placed on the amp just for the photo and quickly removed and promptly drank.


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## PTWamps (Aug 5, 2016)

keithb7 said:


> All valid points. Locally a musician wanted me to work on his $3,000 Soldano. I said no a couple of times. He convinced me to give it a try. He brought it to me and I opened it up. All PCB guts. The job involved potentially exposing PCB traces and adding wires to mod the amp. I listened to my gut. I promptly reassembled the amp and asked him to come pick it up. No way was I gonna potentially screw up that amp. Yet I bought a dead, old crusty 1959 Tweed Twin. It is worth multiple times more than the Soldano. I troubleshot and fixed it myself. However there are 2 key differences. 1. The Twin was mine. If I screw it up, I live with the consequences. 2. No PCB construction, good old hand built on a fibre circuit board.
> 
> The like saying goes. "Know your limit, stay within it". I did.


My policy is always to say, "I will run some tests on your amp and if I can diagnose the problem, I will send you an estimate for approval before doing any work. If I cannot diagnose the problem, I will return it to you untouched." I've sometimes opened up a complicated PCB amp to find a frayed wire or resistor leg touching another component, causing a short. It's a simple fix with little risk to the amp, and the customer is delighted to have their amp working again. I'm surprised also how many times bad/ microphonic tubes, incorrectly inserted tubes, or incorrectly wired speakers are the main problem. Customers who know nothing about these things need your help, and you are doing them a service without needing to charge them much for your time.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

The amps where I really have to earn my money are the ones where someone has brought it to their buddy who claims he can fix it....makes it worse, gives up and then it's sent to me to not only find the original problem but also to unravel all the other mess made in the attempt.
Mercifully, they're a rarity.


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## PTWamps (Aug 5, 2016)

nonreverb said:


> The amps where I really have to earn my money are the ones where someone has brought it to their buddy who claims he can fix it....makes it worse, gives up and then it's sent to me to not only find the original problem but also to unravel all the other mess made in the attempt.
> Mercifully, they're a rarity.


Agreed... except it's unfortunately not so rare around my neck of the woods. Just this year, I encountered:

Marshall JMP where somebody burned right through the top of the CB to remove caps (and replace them with cheapo Chinese ones) because they were to lazy to expose the trace side of the board and desolder them properly
Traynor with FC replacements leaving exposed high voltage wires unanchored millimeters from the chassis
Vintage Bassman with an oversized transformer replacement hanging lopsided by three rusty bolts
Cap jobs where they replace some electrolytics, leaving others (like bias caps) that are literally dead 
Dirty soldering with dirty soldering irons where the guy couldnt be bothered investing 10 cents in a sponge.
... all sorts of crazy shite.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

WCGill said:


> Makes me nervous seeing liquid beverages on a tweed.


Naaa, it's OK. It's just about pure water sitting on them. Now if it were beer or something, that would be different!


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

I've too fixed a few PCB amps with similar symptoms you suggested PTW. I've just decided I'm koo-koo for vintage Fenders. It's a real pleasure to open up and bring back to life an old fender. Being hobbyist I pretty much turn other stuff away now. Ya I guess I may come across as snobby. I just want to work on what I love. It took me a looong time to calm down enough to tackle my dead '59 Twin after I got it home. I think I'm sick over old Fenders.


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

High/Deaf said:


> Naaa, it's OK. It's just about pure water sitting on them. Now if it were beer or something, that would be different!


Where's the unlike button. Lol. It was on sale. BC Day long weekend special. 36 pack. $39. Great deal! I'll drink to that!


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## PTWamps (Aug 5, 2016)

keithb7 said:


> I've too fixed a few PCB amps with similar symptoms you suggested PTW. I've just decided I'm koo-koo for vintage Fenders. It's a real pleasure to open up and bring back to life an old fender. Being hobbyist I pretty much turn other stuff away now. Ya I guess I may come across as snobby. I just want to work on what I love. It took me a looong time to calm down enough to tackle my dead '59 Twin after I got it home. I think I'm sick over old Fenders.


You did not come across as snobby... sorry if I implied that. I'm also ga ga for the old Fenders (and our good ole Canadian Traynors, Pines, and Garnets). Without question they are more fun to work on -- and the results always feel like a little kick against the disposable consumer culture that surrounds us. I'm reading Robert Pirsig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, and every time he mentions the value of keeping an old bike running smoothly it reminds me of how it feels when I fire up an old tube amp after a good overhaul.


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## danielSunn0))) (Dec 28, 2015)

Wow, this has exploded into more than I thought it would. I figured it would be one reply, which would be one of you fellows being like, "This isn't the 50's and radio/transmitter courses don't exist for what is technically considered technology of the past. Shove off bud!" hahah
The extent of which I wish to be involved personally is just for a hobby. Modding, tinkering, clone builds, etc.. I do like the idea of eventually having the knowledge to create a unique circuit design, but I know this is a thing to be taken one step at a time. I do appreciate the wealth of knowledge from all these responses! A few books mentioned throughout this thread I've already read, so it's nice to know I'm on the right track! I definitely have some new things to look into as well, which is very nice!! 

I am currently building a silicone Fuzz Face clone and it's my first true attempt soldering. Only reason it isn't finished yet is because I haven't had the time to pick up literally 1 resistor to finish it and box it 
I also am waiting on some capacitors to come in the mail to start on a JCM800 style mod with values suggest by Sammyr on a traynor yba-1a I have. Then an amp building friend I have is going to help me swap the SS rectifier for a tube rectifier; the idea behind it is - jcm pre, meets jtm power, sprang to life by yba. hahah
Then also I had chassis and transformers given to me for Epi Valve Jr. and Fender Champ builds. The Champ clone I want to mod to become a Herzog at the flip of a switch. An idea I got from this forum while researching Herzog's a while back!! 

I posted a photo of my soldering for the almost finished fuzz face. Feel free to give any tips or pointers!!


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## PTWamps (Aug 5, 2016)

danielSunn0))) said:


> Only reason it isn't finished yet is because I haven't had the time to pick up literally 1 resistor to finish it and box it
> View attachment 24225


Story of my life. Ha ha.

Starting with pedal builds and mods on old Traynors is a common and sensible approach for getting started. I'm not sure where you're at with schematics, but learning to read them (not just the visual layouts for populating a tag board) is essential for getting into the specifics of how a given circuit works and planning out mods.

The pic you posted looks like the kind of circuit test board found in local electronics shops. You have to be careful not to create shorts with all that redundant exposed copper. Soldering a real eyelet or turret board is actually easier than what you've got there, because the layout is specific to the circuit you're aiming to build.

If you don't already have one, before attempting any mods, invest in a good desoldering iron (looks like a regular iron except has an opening on the tip attached to a suction pump). You need clean eyelets and lugs to take the headache out of replacing old components. 

I'm not quite sure what I'm seeing, but are you using the solder itself to bridge some of the connections? Or have you caked on solder over wires lying beneath, as in the bottom left corner? If the former, always try to _dry mount _components so that there is a solid physical connection... i.e. the parts hold together even before the solder is applied. If the latter, you really don't need a huge amount of solder once you learn how to bead it properly and recognize a clean solder joint.

Just some stuff I learned... take whatever you wish from it. Good luck!


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

danielSunn0))) said:


> Wow, this has exploded into more than I thought it would. I figured it would be one reply, which would be one of you fellows being like, "This isn't the 50's and radio/transmitter courses don't exist for what is technically considered technology of the past. Shove off bud!" hahah
> The extent of which I wish to be involved personally is just for a hobby. Modding, tinkering, clone builds, etc.. I do like the idea of eventually having the knowledge to create a unique circuit design, but I know this is a thing to be taken one step at a time. I do appreciate the wealth of knowledge from all these responses! A few books mentioned throughout this thread I've already read, so it's nice to know I'm on the right track! I definitely have some new things to look into as well, which is very nice!!
> 
> I am currently building a silicone Fuzz Face clone and it's my first true attempt soldering. Only reason it isn't finished yet is because I haven't had the time to pick up literally 1 resistor to finish it and box it
> ...


I normally wouldn't criticize, but you asked.

Too much solder. Just about everywhere. Solder fillets should be concave and not convex. Like glue, the less you can use to do the job, the better.










In this pic, the first fillet is nearly perfect. The second and third examples are borderline, just starting to go convex.










This is a very bad solder fillet.

I would also consider insulated wires. That's a lot of exposed (potentially shorting) copper.

Electric solder suckers are great, but they take a fair bit of maintenance (I've used high end Pace stations for years, don't own one myself though). The plastic pneumatic spring-loaded solder suckers work pretty good too and a lot less money and maintenance. I use solder wick, which is copper braid pre-soaked with rosin. Works great but takes a bit of handcraft.

I'm also a big fan of multiple tips sizes for your iron (don't use a gun). If you're working on large surfaces (back of a pot) use a big spade-shaped tip to transfer lots of heat quickly, for small work like resistors or active components, use a small pointy tip, both to make it easier to get in to tight spots, but also because it won't transfer a lot of heat into fragile electronics.

Other than that, soldering is like a skill you develop. The more you do it, the better you'll get. Enjoy, and keep up the good work.


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## danielSunn0))) (Dec 28, 2015)

Thanks for the helpful tips PTW and High/Deaf!! I guess I'll just keep at it and hope improvement comes sooner, rather than later. Really appreciate the photo examples of what to look for.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

With all due respect, I don't entirely agree with your conclusions. There are good reasons for solder drapes such as in the 2nd and 3rd pics. I wouldn't call them borderline.
All you have to look at is early Fender Blues JR's, and Devilles to understand why. Their tubes all suffered from too little solder such as in pic 1. Due to the orientation of the tubes on those amps, the solder quickly developed halo cracks as the constant expansion and contraction from heating took their toll. Eventually, Fender beefed up the solder on the tube pads significantly and the problem disappeared.
Solder performs two functions: It provides a conductive path for electricity but it also holds components to the board. Most manufacturers will try and get away with as little solder s possible. The problem is where large components are concerned, it has a propensity to fail. Large filter caps came to mind even with hot glue they can break away. A little extra solder and the problem is solved.
More often than not. Thin draped solder joints are fine but it's definitely not the rule.



High/Deaf said:


> I normally wouldn't criticize, but you asked.
> 
> Too much solder. Just about everywhere. Solder fillets should be concave and not convex. Like glue, the less you can use to do the job, the better.
> 
> ...


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

a


nonreverb said:


> With all due respect, I don't entirely agree with your conclusions. There are good reasons for solder drapes such as in the 2nd and 3rd pics. I wouldn't call them borderline.
> All you have to look at is early Fender Blues JR's, and Devilles to understand why. Their tubes all suffered from too little solder such as in pic 1. Due to the orientation of the tubes on those amps, the solder quickly developed halo cracks as the constant expansion and contraction from heating took their toll. Eventually, Fender beefed up the solder on the tube pads significantly and the problem disappeared.
> Solder performs two functions: It provides a conductive path for electricity but it also holds components to the board. Most manufacturers will try and get away with as little solder s possible. The problem is where large components are concerned, it has a propensity to fail. Large filter caps came to mind even with hot glue they can break away. A little extra solder and the problem is solved.
> More often than not. Thin draped solder joints are fine but it's definitely not the rule.


Perhaps there are reasons to do this, but they would still earn you a 'fail' in a mil-spec solder course. 

If you have to use too much solder to mechanically hold something in place, then the mechanics are bad. If the pins through the board were too small to support the load of the tubes when soldered correctly, the pins/holes/pads should have been larger and then the larger fillet would hold them just fine. Fixing a design mistake with a manufacturing short cut isn't my idea of an ideal solution. It's like recording a half-assed sounding track, thinking you'll 'just fix it in the mix'.

I know lots of places probably do it to save money, but it doesn't make it right.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Although I did the mil-spec course 25 years ago, if I worried about mil-spec every time I have a solder job to do, I'd never be off the bench! That's not to say I don't pay attention to soldering, it's so natural to me now I'm not worried if it's not mil-spec perfect.
Having said that, for those just starting out, it's understandable to pay close attention to the work one's doing.
Manufacturers like life itself, are not perfect however, applying the right treatment for the job is. A little too much solder is far better than not enough.....I've seen my fair share of amps off the line that were obviously assembled after lunch on Martini Friday where there's no solder at all.




High/Deaf said:


> a
> 
> 
> Perhaps there are reasons to do this, but they would still earn you a 'fail' in a mil-spec solder course.
> ...


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

Just keep soldering. You'll develop your skills. It won't take long. You'll get it and know when is enough or not, solder.


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## PTWamps (Aug 5, 2016)

On the matter of halo cracks where tube sockets solder to the board on Blues Juniors, etc., I think a bigger issue than how much solder is the very fact that they have tube sockets directly mounted on PCBs in the first place. Hotrod Fenders, Peavey Classic and Delta Blues, Marshall Haze, etc all do this -- and it's a recipe for failure when those solder joints take the brunt of those sockets shaking around, having various tubes plugged in and out, etc. I think High/Deaf's "the mechanics are bad" applies here.

In amps like the 65 Deluxe (DRRI) and the Fender Twin BF Reissue I fixed recently, the circuit is all PCB but the tube sockets themselves are chassis mounted and handwired to traces in the traditional way. It seems those amps are a lot less prone to failure at the sockets.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Unfortunately, it's a matter of cost. To keep Devilles, Blues JR's et al competitive from a price standpoint, they mount and solder on a circuit board via a machine. To be fair, Fender remedied the problem by....you guessed it, beefing up the solder on the boards. The amps that have the revision rarely if ever develop the problem. The Blues JR are a wee bit more problematic as the socket pins are small and married with Fender's refusal to install a proper bias control for the EL84's, generate considerable heat around the socket. having said that, they're more reliable than they used to be.

Besides....stuff like that helps keep me in business.



PTWamps said:


> On the matter of halo cracks where tube sockets solder to the board on Blues Juniors, etc., I think a bigger issue than how much solder is the very fact that they have tube sockets directly mounted on PCBs in the first place. Hotrod Fenders, Peavey Classic and Delta Blues, Marshall Haze, etc all do this -- and it's a recipe for failure when those solder joints take the brunt of those sockets shaking around, having various tubes plugged in and out, etc. I think High/Deaf's "the mechanics are bad" applies here.
> 
> In amps like the 65 Deluxe (DRRI) and the Fender Twin BF Reissue I fixed recently, the circuit is all PCB but the tube sockets themselves are chassis mounted and handwired to traces in the traditional way. It seems those amps are a lot less prone to failure at the sockets.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

nonreverb said:


> Although I did the mil-spec course 25 years ago, if I worried about mil-spec every time I have a solder job to do, I'd never be off the bench! That's not to say I don't pay attention to soldering, it's so natural to me now I'm not worried if it's not mil-spec perfect.
> Having said that, for those just starting out, it's understandable to pay close attention to the work one's doing.
> Manufacturers like life itself, are not perfect however, applying the right treatment for the job is. A little too much solder is far better than not enough.....I've seen my fair share of amps off the line that were obviously assembled after lunch on Martini Friday where there's no solder at all.


In a technical section, where someone is asking for critique on his soldering skills, I would rather reinforce the correct method than talk about things a company did to get around bad design. I wouldn't say I adhere to the mil-specs I learned all the time, but it is a standard to strive for. Much like guitar technique - I don't position my hand exactly as I should but that's no reason not to try for the ideal.

On single-sided PCBs, I'm not too worried about 'not enough solder'. Once you start flowing solder through holes, it certainly becomes an issue and is something the OP should be aware of. But much like SMD work, that is a level above where he's at.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

Youtube is not a real course, but this guy does some great teaching, instruction, and practical examples as he does repair-work. Uncle Doug does pretty great videos and they actually helped clear up some theoretical confusion I had. 
Uncle Doug

Before(and after) I found the Uncle Doug channel a couple months ago, I relied on reading and asking questions on amp building forums like ampgarage.com.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

PTWamps said:


> On the matter of halo cracks where tube sockets solder to the board on Blues Juniors, etc., I think a bigger issue than how much solder is the very fact that they have tube sockets directly mounted on PCBs in the first place. Hotrod Fenders, Peavey Classic and Delta Blues, Marshall Haze, etc all do this -- and it's a recipe for failure when those solder joints take the brunt of those sockets shaking around, having various tubes plugged in and out, etc. I think High/Deaf's "the mechanics are bad" applies here.


Ampeg V series amps used board mounted preamp tube sockets in the '70s and they never had issues like the Fender's you mentioned. So I'm not sure if it's just having them board mounted. Now, 40+ years later, they do need resoldering, but so do all the other joints on the boards.


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## PTWamps (Aug 5, 2016)

jb welder said:


> Ampeg V series amps used board mounted preamp tube sockets in the '70s and they never had issues like the Fender's you mentioned. So I'm not sure if it's just having them board mounted. Now, 40+ years later, they do need resoldering, but so do all the other joints on the boards.


Thanks for that bit of info, JB. In the amps I've repaired there's a difference in whether the sockets are just PCB mounted, letting the solder hold them in place, or securely screwed or riveted in the chassis as well. This can vary within the same company. The US-made Peavey Delta Blues PCB mounts its sockets but also screws them to the chassis from below. Whereas the Chinese-made 6505 lets the board itself do all the work. On that amp it's hard even to get the tubes to seat properly because the PCB flexes on the inside as you push them in. I'd add also that the quality of the sockets makes a big difference. 

To High/ Deaf: The mil-spec standard you illuminate above would seem to apply to PCB work only -- at least the illustrations you posted look like PCBs. What would be the equivalent method for eyelets or turrets? I've worked on quite a few 60s Fenders recently (including an original 1960 brownface Super that arrived yesterday). All of them have the typical large round beads of solder on the eyelets (you notice it when you have to suck it all out to do a recap) but these joints have lasted upwards of 60 years. Have the standards changed as to how much solder we should use? Thanks.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Well, I can't speak to the history of mil spec, but the course I took (twice - I'm a dumb bugger, I guess) was all about PCB work. Soldering through holes, proper technique for different sizes and orientations, soldering SMD components, board and trace repairs. The real world doesn't really have eyelets and turrets anymore, just guitar amps. A cellphone would take a 4 story building if not for technology. The course is aimed at modern industry and it's requirements.

So I think with the advent of more and more complicated PCB's, the industry required better hand skills and training. But no reason not to use good industry practice in older designs and builds. With an eyelet, probably erring on the side of 'a bit too much' is a good idea. On a tightly packed board, too much can be a bigger problem than not enough. Kind of like glues and epoxies, often less is better.


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## copperhead (May 24, 2006)

Modern amp's in general ,when you have the board out which most of it is connected to ,look at the pots,jacks ,& tubes where they are soldered to the board .a little reflow is all they may need .


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## PTWamps (Aug 5, 2016)

High/Deaf said:


> Well, I can't speak to the history of mil spec, but the course I took (twice - I'm a dumb bugger, I guess) was all about PCB work. Soldering through holes, proper technique for different sizes and orientations, soldering SMD components, board and trace repairs. The real world doesn't really have eyelets and turrets anymore, just guitar amps. A cellphone would take a 4 story building if not for technology. The course is aimed at modern industry and it's requirements.
> 
> So I think with the advent of more and more complicated PCB's, the industry required better hand skills and training. But no reason not to use good industry practice in older designs and builds. With an eyelet, probably erring on the side of 'a bit too much' is a good idea. On a tightly packed board, too much can be a bigger problem than not enough. Kind of like glues and epoxies, often less is better.


Interesting. I do a fair bit of PCB work simply because I'm one of the few techs in my town, so inevitably as many Peaveys and entry level whatevers come my way as do the (for me) more interesting handwired amps. I'd say I'm untrained except that my father was an excellent hobby electrician and when I was a kid we made our own PCBs (the acid and the whole bit) and built radios and stereo amps. Agreed about eyelets and turrets being a thing of the past; first time in the local electronics store when I first moved to town, they looked at me like I'd stepped out of a time machine. They're used to me now: "Ah, oui, turrets. Ha ha. Mon Dieu, c'est tellement VIEUX!" 



copperhead said:


> Modern amp's in general ,when you have the board out which most of it is connected to ,look at the pots,jacks ,& tubes where they are soldered to the board .a little reflow is all they may need .


True. And pots and jacks are usually not as bad because they inevitably get screwed into the chassis which takes some of the stress. What I find more often with those is those black plastic box jacks crap out on the inside, more than they come loose from the board. 

I really don't think its a PCB issue so much as its a question of quality and design. I own a 1977 Gibson/ LAB Series L5 (designed by Robert Moog of synth fame, the same model BB King used). It's all solid state/ PCB construction but built like a tank and still in excellent working order. Compare that to a lot of recent robo-soldered PCB boards tightly packed and built as cheaply as possible, and there's really no competition.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

PTWamps said:


> I've worked on quite a few 60s Fenders recently (including an original 1960 brownface Super that arrived yesterday). All of them have the typical large round beads of solder on the eyelets (you notice it when you have to suck it all out to do a recap) but these joints have lasted upwards of 60 years. Have the standards changed as to how much solder we should use? Thanks.


Those Fender eyelet boards were soldered 'upside down' on the assembly line, then installed into the chassis. So the gravity was what gave those solder joints their concave appearance. When you remove that solder and resolder the joint ('right side up'), you can't really get that same 'bubble' appearance (it will be below, rather than topside).
The trick here is that you can now identify virgin solder joints that have been untouched since they came out of the factory. In some extreme collector circles, this can be important.


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## PTWamps (Aug 5, 2016)

Very interesting. Thanks, JB.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Machines do almost all the through-hole and smt work now. Therefore with the human element removed from the equation, mil-spec is becoming extinct. Unfortunately, that doesn't cure the problem regarding bad soldering. It just puts it on a far grander scale just like board design. More often than not, manufacturers design electronics to make it past warranty and then expect people to throw it away and buy a new one. Ever tried repairing a Line6 amp?.....makes an awesome projectile.


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## PTWamps (Aug 5, 2016)

nonreverb said:


> Machines do almost all the through-hole and smt work now. Therefore with the human element removed from the equation, mil-spec is becoming extinct. Unfortunately, that doesn't cure the problem regarding bad soldering. It just puts it on a far grander scale just like board design. More often than not, manufacturers design electronics to make it past warranty and then expect people to throw it away and buy a new one. Ever tried repairing a Line6 amp?.....makes an awesome projectile.


I've so far been spared the pleasures of Line 6's fine line of musical doorstoppers -- but I've only been doing this commercially for a couple of years, so I'm sure it's just a matter of time. I have facepalmed my way through a couple of Fender modellers, though, so I know where you're coming from.


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