# Some advice about a shipment gone wrong (Nitro finish cracks)



## Bluesjr (Nov 2, 2013)

Hi all,

I need a little advice. Just received a 65 AVRI Strat from a seller on Reverb. The guitar was shipped FEDEX from Texas on Thursday, and was delivered yesterday afternoon at my office. I took the package home, and didn't open the box until about 8pm last night. 
I was pretty let down when I opened the case and noticed a bunch of finish cracks all over the body front and back. I took pictures and let the seller know of course. The guitar left Texas in good shape. With the freezing weather over the weekend didn't help.

The Strat plays fine, no issues with the neck or electronics.

So I'm wondering if anyone has had any experience with something like this? Do i have a case with the seller?
Can we go back to FEDEX for a claim? The shipment had insurance on it. Or am I basically stuck with it?

Thanks.


----------



## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Damn. Sorry I can't put in any reasonable input to the question itself. But good luck in getting the situation sorted.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Funny, people pay a premium to have guitars artificially aged.

All you have to do is ship in winter.

Sorry man, it's a shipping issue. Your case would have to be against FedEx I think.


----------



## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

This might add value to the guitar. Folks seem to dig this relicing thing. Danish Pete spent hours getting his Strat to look like this.


----------



## Bluesjr (Nov 2, 2013)

Thanks for the replies. The guitar does play well, and sounds great, and I really like the Shoreline gold colour. 
I have a 59 AVRI Strat, that over 5 years now owing it, it's starting to fade slightly and looks played in.
I'm sure the same will happen with this 65 Strat, has a thin nitro finish. But it just bugs me that it's cracked like that.
The seller is a decent guy, but he's of course he doesn't want to do a refund.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

It is a bummer that the guirar didnt arrive in the condition it left in. 

Its going to do it eventually anyway though. If fedex doesnt store parcels in heated warehouses, this is going to happen. Im not sure a claim will really pan out. 

IMO if you dont want the checking, either a) sell/trade this body for one without nitro or b) refin this body without nitro.

Best of luck. It's a gorgeous colour.


----------



## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

I think it looks better. GF^%@


----------



## sillyak (Oct 22, 2016)

Shitty situation. Don't really think the seller is to blame, nor is FedEx. Doesn't hurt for the seller to try a claim and give you whatever money they get from it. Don't think I would try to ship a Nitro guitar in January.


----------



## Bluesjr (Nov 2, 2013)

Budda said:


> It is a bummer that the guirar didnt arrive in the condition it left in.
> 
> Its going to do it eventually anyway though. If fedex doesnt store parcels in heated warehouses, this is going to happen. Im not sure a claim will really pan out.
> 
> ...





sillyak said:


> Shitty situation. Don't really think the seller is to blame, nor is FedEx. Doesn't hurt for the seller to try a claim and give you whatever money they get from it. Don't think I would try to ship a Nitro guitar in January.


Yeah, stupid me for buying a guitar in January! LOL

The seller isn't to blame for sure. Good idea though, try a claim and see what happens.
It's a pain in the ass to ask for a refund, then get into a pissing match about the shipping costs back to Texas etc.


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Don't ask us. Ask Reverb. Go to Reverb and click on the chat button. Tell them what is going on. they will tell you what your rights are. In most cases, they will either ask the seller to offer you a partial refund or possibly a full refund, but the only people who know for sure are Reverb employees. I've had a few refunds given me without having to send the item back.


----------



## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

Budda said:


> It is a bummer that the guirar didnt arrive in the condition it left in.
> 
> Its going to do it eventually anyway though. If fedex doesnt store parcels in heated warehouses, this is going to happen. Im not sure a claim will really pan out.
> 
> ...



Are you saying all guitars that have nitro , the finish is going to crack...or you just mean guitars being shipped it cold weather ?


----------



## JonnyD (Sep 20, 2016)

All nitro guitars will eventually check. Just look at 90% of the vintage gear being sold. It’s the same for fret boards. Anything made and leaving a hot humid climate and coming into Canada especially in the middle of winter may be affected. Here in Alberta it’s considered a extreme climate so it’s extremely dry here in the winter, fret ends poke out unless you have a humidifier going.


----------



## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

You mean nitro cellulose finish?


----------



## JonnyD (Sep 20, 2016)

Yeah anything with nitro exposed to heat and then cold without a slow warm up period will instantly crack. I had a avri 62 hot rod strat. Left it in the trunk(winter) for maybe and hour while I ate, then remember it in the trunk! Grabbed it and brought it inside, instantly it started to crack. I wish I recorded it, I could see and hear it cracking.


----------



## Bluesjr (Nov 2, 2013)

JonnyD said:


> Yeah anything with nitro exposed to heat and then cold without a slow warm up period will instantly crack. I had a avri 62 hot rod strat. Left it in the trunk(winter) for maybe and hour while I ate, then remember it in the trunk! Grabbed it and brought it inside, instantly it started to crack. I wish I recorded it, I could see and hear it cracking.


Geez! That's probably what happened in this case. The guitar was sitting in a cold warehouse, cold truck on the way up to Toronto. It hit customs, they open the box and the cracking started.


----------



## JonnyD (Sep 20, 2016)

@Bluesjr 

That’s a killer strat. Every time I went into the downtown Mcquade here I’d grab that one and play it. Such a nice medium thick neck, just played so nice. 

The checking actually looks awesome, you pay extra for the custom shop closet classic and that’s exactly what your looks like. I don’t think it will hurt the value at all.


----------



## Bluesjr (Nov 2, 2013)

knight_yyz said:


> Don't ask us. Ask Reverb. Go to Reverb and click on the chat button. Tell them what is going on. they will tell you what your rights are. In most cases, they will either ask the seller to offer you a partial refund or possibly a full refund, but the only people who know for sure are Reverb employees. I've had a few refunds given me without having to send the item back.


Thanks, just did exactly that, thanks for your advice!


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Rick31797 said:


> Are you saying all guitars that have nitro , the finish is going to crack...or you just mean guitars being shipped it cold weather ?


All nitro cracks.


----------



## Jimmy The Gent (Sep 4, 2018)

Personally, I think it adds character. Love the colour.


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

JonnyD said:


> Yeah anything with nitro exposed to heat and then cold without a slow warm up period will instantly crack. I had a avri 62 hot rod strat. Left it in the trunk(winter) for maybe and hour while I ate, then remember it in the trunk! Grabbed it and brought it inside, instantly it started to crack. I wish I recorded it, I could see and hear it cracking.


Exact same thing happened to an old Dean I had. That's when I first learned this lesson.


----------



## JonnyD (Sep 20, 2016)

Yeah it wasn’t cool but in the end I still sold it for what I paid, so it didn’t hurt the value. 

I think it definitely adds character and to me looks like a real 6o’s Strat that was just pulled out of closet that it’s been sitting in for 30 plus years.


----------



## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Lived the same issue with an acoustic some years ago : Apparently clear that it will not alter the sound though.
I was said that Martin do not ship to Canada between November and April.
I do not buy or sell outside my area anymore during the cold season.

And what reverb said ?


----------



## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

I like this new look myself and it sure beats faking it with a razor blade IMO. That said there is an argument to be made that the guitar arrived "not as described", which is entirely true, so you'd be within your right to request a remedy of some sort. I don't think it'll hinder valuation in the least so it really just comes down to your preferences i.e. You prefer the pristine look over a somewhat aged finish. No right or wrong to it but I'd say you're in the drivers seat as the buyer in this case.


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

JonnyD said:


> Yeah it wasn’t cool but in the end I still sold it for what I paid, so it didn’t hurt the value.
> 
> I think it definitely adds character and to me looks like a real 6o’s Strat that was just pulled out of closet that it’s been sitting in for 30 plus years.


OH ya for sure. I had no issues with the checking. It's just the shock when it actually happens lol.


----------



## JonnyD (Sep 20, 2016)

I was in shock when I could physically see and hear it happening! I soon as I open the case in the warm living room I could hear it then see it. Cool in a way. Now makes me want that 62 hot rod back, thinking back on it.


----------



## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

That is the strangest checking I have ever seen-especially the back.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

rollingdam said:


> That is the strangest checking I have ever seen-especially the back.


I assume you mean this. 
Caught my eye also...but I know nothing about checking.


----------



## SaucyJack (Mar 8, 2017)

I absolutely love nitro cracks on a guitar! I'd be tickled pink if that happened to me.


----------



## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i thought strats were poly finish?


----------



## JonnyD (Sep 20, 2016)

Most of them are from the 70’s and on but most of the reissue series and some signature models are nitrocellulose. Still most of a polyurethane base coat and then nitro but again some vintage reissue are just nitro with very little or no body sealer.


----------



## Bluesjr (Nov 2, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies. I've contacted Reverb and they have told me based on the pictures I can request a full refund. I've contacted the seller and offered a compromise. I'll keep the guitar, and they give a partial refund of 20% of what I paid. I think that's a fair offer.


----------



## numb41 (Jul 13, 2009)

Personally, I think you assume the risk at this time of year shipping from warm to cold. I don’t think it’s fair to ask the seller, or the freight company to chip in. It unfortunate that you don’t like the circumstances, but, tough titty.


----------



## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

Well, that's one seller that will never be dealing with Canadian buyers again. Lol.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

cdntac said:


> Well, that's one seller that will never be dealing with Canadian buyers again. Lol.


Most likely.


----------



## StratCat (Dec 30, 2013)

I like the checking, and even better, now a story to go along with this guitar.

You won’t lose any money if and when you decide to sell, even without the 20% refund. Who else has a AVRI Strat in Shoreline Gold with natural checking for sale? 

PS, it’s taking everything I’ve got to not ask how much you want for it. Opps!


----------



## JonnyD (Sep 20, 2016)

I have a few guitars I’d like to leave outside in the case for an hour or so and bring in, see what happens. To chicken to do it though.


----------



## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I'm liking that guitar as is too, really nice.
Sorry that it didn't arrive as expected, but I have to agree that you take the risk shipping this time of year.

This did happen to me a few years ago within the forum.
I bought the guitar from a guy in Alberta, middle of a super cold winter.

This guitar was poly too, not nitro, but I think because of the underlaying fabric, that caused some of the movement.

















The seller was pretty concerned and offered to make it right, he had a second one, but I declined.
I thought that it looked pretty cool, a bit of character and I'd be able to pick it out of a roomfull of Florals.


----------



## Bluesjr (Nov 2, 2013)

numb41 said:


> Personally, I think you assume the risk at this time of year shipping from warm to cold. I don’t think it’s fair to ask the seller, or the freight company to chip in. It unfortunate that you don’t like the circumstances, but, tough titty.





cdntac said:


> Well, that's one seller that will never be dealing with Canadian buyers again. Lol.


Probably right, but it doesn't hurt to ask. The seller has been very understanding. Said this happened a few years ago when shipping a Tele to Michigan. He said he should have known better himself, and I didn't consider it myself. Who would have known this was going to be the coldest weekend of the winter.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Winter isnt over yet


----------



## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

I have to ask if anyone who got those cracks opened the case immediately after bringing the guitar into a warm house? My understanding was that if you let it warm up gradually (i.e. first in the shipping box for several hours, then remove the guitar from the shipping box but leave it in the case) this wouldn’t happen. Does the finish automatically crack below a certain temperature or is there a time/variance threshold in effect?


----------



## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Roryfan said:


> ...Does the finish automatically crack below a certain temperature or is there a time/variance threshold in effect?


Good question.

Even back in the 70s we were told not to open the case right away if it had been in the cold. 

As for the seller, it's kinda unfair to expect him to pay because the buyer lives in the fuckin arctic; what can he do about that.


----------



## JonnyD (Sep 20, 2016)

Yeah that’s what your supposed to do. The cold to instant hot is what causes the cracks. It should be gradually warmed up but who has time for that when opening a new guitar!


----------



## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

I thought there was no real danger as far as you allow the guitar to warm up very slowly in her case in the box. Unfortunately it may no be enough. The one who came in with checkered nitro finish probably stayed in a cold warehouse or truck for a whole weekend. That is why I avoid any shipping in winter now.
Another one submitted that a custom inspection may have caused the problem : that is an interesting aspect.


----------



## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Bluesjr said:


> Thanks for all the replies. I've contacted Reverb and they have told me based on the pictures I can request a full refund. I've contacted the seller and offered a compromise. I'll keep the guitar, and they give a partial refund of 20% of what I paid. I think that's a fair offer.


Yes, I would say so too. Happy NGD!


----------



## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

Budda said:


> All nitro cracks.


Your comment implied that a 100 % of guitars with a Nitro finish will crack, I think I have seen some vintage guitars that look just fine.
I think what you mean is all Guitars with Nitro finish will crack if exposed to certain temperature fluctuations.
A guitar with Nitro finish should be fine for many years if it’s kept in a temperature controlled environment..
I have furniture here made in 1977 that was sprayed with Nitrocellulose lacquer that is just fine.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Rick31797 said:


> Your comment implied that a 100 % of guitars with a Nitro finish will crack, I think I have seen some vintage guitars that look just fine.
> I think what you mean is all Guitars with Nitro finish will crack if exposed to certain temperature fluctuations.
> A guitar with Nitro finish should be fine for many years if it’s kept in a temperature controlled environment..
> I have furniture here made in 1977 that was sprayed with Nitrocellulose lacquer that is just fine.


I was under the impression that nitro will, at some point crack regardless of storing conditions. Interesting to learn that this is not the case. Thanks!


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Actually, the original poster should wait for another -25C weekend and put it out in the trunk of his car (or SUV, Truck or Van). I personally think it could use some more checking. Looks great the way it is though and I'm one of the people that really aren't that fussy about relics. If anyone's counting, I for one think the OP and the seller came to a fair decision for both parties. Enjoy the guitar, it's a beauty and already has a story to go along with it.


----------



## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

Bluesjr said:


> Thanks for all the replies. I've contacted Reverb and they have told me based on the pictures I can request a full refund. I've contacted the seller and offered a compromise. I'll keep the guitar, and they give a partial refund of 20% of what I paid. I think that's a fair offer.



Considering the concensus here is that valuation has probably not been hurt by the checking, I assume our definition of "fair" is quite different. You're correct that it doesn't hurt to ask but, if I was the seller, rather than accept your arbitrary 20% devaluation I'd just have you return it for a full refund...based on the reasonable assumption that you're not happy with the transaction.


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

StevieMac said:


> Considering the concensus here is that valuation has probably not been hurt by the checking, I assume our definition of "fair" is quite different. You're correct that it doesn't hurt to ask but, if I was the seller, rather than accept your arbitrary 20% devaluation I'd just have you return it for a full refund...based on the reasonable assumption that you're not happy with the transaction.


I wonder what you would do if you opened the case with that beautiful guitar in it that someone is bringing to Napanee and it had check marks all through it. You might be disappointed also.


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2019)

Be glad that there's no 'upcharge' for the relic'ing. lol.


----------



## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

Guitar101 said:


> I wonder what you would do if you opened the case with that beautiful guitar in it that someone is bringing to Napanee and it had check marks all through it. You might be disappointed also.


No "might" about it. I'd _definitely_ be disappointed. No suggestion has been made that the OP shouldn't feel disappointed however, in the end, you're either ok with it or you're not. I'm curious about where the 20% devaluation estimate came from but, regardless, the OP has the right to return it for a full refund which he can certainly exercise (no such recourse exists in my case, having assumed ALL responsibility). Regardless, I sincerely hope the matter gets resolved to everyone's satisfaction.


----------



## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

StevieMac said:


> No "might" about it. I'd _definitely_ be disappointed. No suggestion has been made that the OP shouldn't feel disappointed however, in the end, you're either ok with it or you're not. I'm curious about where the 20% devaluation estimate came from but, regardless, the OP has the right to return it for a full refund which he can certainly exercise (no such recourse exists in my case, having assumed ALL responsibility). Regardless, I sincerely hope the matter gets resolved to everyone's satisfaction.


So i am just curious , you would have no issues paying the same price for your Gibson, with finish cracks vs the condition you bought it in.
For me i feel it lowers the value at the time of sale, i dont think the sellers at fault at all, but as part of the rules there is a expectaion for a buyer to receive there item as described.


----------



## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

Rick31797 said:


> So i am just curious , you would have no issues paying the same price for your Gibson, with finish cracks vs the condition you bought it in.


Never said that. If I purchased a pristine guitar on Reverb and really wanted it to remain that way, I'd return it as an "item not as described" and move on. It's not what I wanted/agreed to purchase so back it goes....but that's me.

All I was asking about in this case is where the 20% devaluation came from. Is it for assuming some risk on planned resale? Is there some objective standard from whence it arose? Or has the buyer decided that, for them personally, they could "live with it" at that particular price reduction? ALL of those may be valid explanations and it's _just_ a question.


----------



## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

more than anything else, the situation sucks for the seller.


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

This doesn't apply to guitars, but when I take my camera out in the extreme cold, before I bring it back into the house I put it in a huge ziplock bag. When the camera and the ziplock warm up to room temperature all the condensation formed will be on the outside of the bag. Camera is safe. My point is, there has to be a way to ship a guitar without it going through numerous freeze and thaw cycles. What do all the big names do? Do Fender and Gibson refuse to ship during the winter? Do they pay extra for heated cargo space?


BTY the shipper has to pay for the return shipping for item not as described. 20% discount was probably a hell of a lot cheaper than paying for the return shipping. And then he would have to try and sell a barely relic'd body which may or may not sell.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

knight_yyz said:


> What do all the big names do? Do Fender and Gibson refuse to ship during the winter? Do they pay extra for heated cargo space?


Excellent question!


----------



## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

I had a similar issue with a Les Paul a couple of years ago. Canada Post did nothing when the seller claimed it, but he did eventually take it back. I followed the full "warm up" protocol, as the guitar box was actually sitting in my office unopened for almost a week before I returned from vacation. It was across Canada, so customs didn't open it, either. There is no guarantee that warming the box and guitar up gradually will protect you from checking.


----------



## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

jdto said:


> I had a similar issue with a Les Paul a couple of years ago. Canada Post did nothing when the seller claimed it, but he did eventually take it back. I followed the full "warm up" protocol, as the guitar box was actually sitting in my office unopened for almost a week before I returned from vacation. It was across Canada, so customs didn't open it, either. There is no guarantee that warming the box and guitar up gradually will protect you from checking.



Not listening, not listening...la la la la la.  I have another guitar currently on the way, one which I paid a _considerable_ sum for due to it's mint status, that was sent from Victoria. Now I'm legitimately concerned!


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Your guitar has the potential to sit in a freezing truck all night and then get delivered to a hot warehouse, then loaded into another potentially freezing truck.... Checking can happen in the box during travel not only when you open the box.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

knight_yyz said:


> Your guitar has the potential to sit in a freezing truck all night and then get delivered to a hot warehouse, then loaded into another potentially freezing truck.... Checking can happen in the box during travel not only when you open the box.


Odds are the warehouse is nowhere near hot, unless they are willing to pay big bucks on heating bills.


----------



## Bluesjr (Nov 2, 2013)

StevieMac said:


> No "might" about it. I'd _definitely_ be disappointed. No suggestion has been made that the OP shouldn't feel disappointed however, in the end, you're either ok with it or you're not. I'm curious about where the 20% devaluation estimate came from but, regardless, the OP has the right to return it for a full refund which he can certainly exercise (no such recourse exists in my case, having assumed ALL responsibility). Regardless, I sincerely hope the matter gets resolved to everyone's satisfaction.





StevieMac said:


> Never said that. If I purchased a pristine guitar on Reverb and really wanted it to remain that way, I'd return it as an "item not as described" and move on. It's not what I wanted/agreed to purchase so back it goes....but that's me.
> 
> All I was asking about in this case is where the 20% devaluation came from. Is it for assuming some risk on planned resale? Is there some objective standard from whence it arose? Or has the buyer decided that, for them personally, they could "live with it" at that particular price reduction? ALL of those may be valid explanations and it's _just_ a question.





knight_yyz said:


> BTY the shipper has to pay for the return shipping for item not as described. 20% discount was probably a hell of a lot cheaper than paying for the return shipping. And then he would have to try and sell a barely relic'd body which may or may not sell.


Lively debate here! I was disappointed when I opened the case honestly. I spent some good money on this Strat, and it was sold in mint condition.
After speaking with Reverb and the seller, I was going to go the full refund route. The seller wasn't too pleased that under the rules, he would have to pay return shipping on top of the refund. It never came up, but I'm sure he wouldn't be too thrilled about trying to resell that guitar. So i offered to keep it, forgo the hassle of returning and thought that 20% number was fair compromise and he agreed. Everything is all good.


----------



## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

Bluesjr said:


> Lively debate here! I was disappointed when I opened the case honestly. I spent some good money on this Strat, and it was sold in mint condition.
> After speaking with Reverb and the seller, I was going to go the full refund route. The seller wasn't too pleased that under the rules, he would have to pay return shipping on top of the refund. It never came up, but I'm sure he wouldn't be too thrilled about trying to resell that guitar. So i offered to keep it, forgo the hassle of returning and thought that 20% number was fair compromise and he agreed. Everything is all good.



That's terrific. As you & others have pointed out, the seller would be on the hook for shipping both ways AND be left with a guitar that he might not know what to do with. Considering his options, the 20% loss may have saved him more grief in the end. Glad it worked out for you.


----------



## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

Budda said:


> All nitro cracks.


I was reading over at MLP...apparently nitro LP guitars don't crack easily after 2005 I think it was...something added to the nitro to keep the finish from checking...

that said...if I was looking for a pristine guitar...i'd be cautious too...when I got my Suhr...it sat in the box and case in my living room for two days before I opened it to see my new guitar...


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Not all nitro cracks. If you are adamant about keeping it properly humidified and avoid expansion contraction cycles during hot and cold, all you will see the nitro do is turn yellow.


----------



## JonnyD (Sep 20, 2016)

No not all nitro finishes will crack but don’t bing it out to a gig in the winter, over to your buddies to jam or expose it to sunlight. 

So basically keep it hidden away in a controlled room like a nice cigar.


----------



## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

I always assumed if if a nitro finished guitar went from cold to hot the finish would become clouded only and not necessarily have checking.


----------



## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

ezcomes said:


> I was reading over at MLP...apparently nitro LP guitars don't crack easily after 2005 I think it was...something added to the nitro to keep the finish from checking...
> 
> that said...if I was looking for a pristine guitar...i'd be cautious too...when I got my Suhr...it sat in the box and case in my living room for two days before I opened it to see my new guitar...


The one I had check on me was a 2012 Traditional. Sometimes I think I should've just kept it. It was a sweet guitar.

@StevieMac fingers crossed yours makes it alright. We've had some pretty deep freezes, but some wild swings, too. 

Edt: @Bluesjr while I can certainly appreciate your disappointment (I went through a very similar experience with my LP odyssey), that is one sweet Strat and I hope it can bring you lots of joy


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I was under the assumption that its the wood expanding and contracting. The nitro moves less than the wood. Something's got to give.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Rick31797 said:


> So i am just curious , you would have no issues paying the same price for your Gibson, with finish cracks vs the condition you bought it in.
> For me i feel it lowers the value at the time of sale, i dont think the sellers at fault at all, but as part of the rules there is a expectaion for a buyer to receive there item as described.


I bought a custom shop nocaster from the L&M in Ottawa a few years ago that had been around the store for a couple years and had experienced checking. It wasn't a relic. I loved the look.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Bluesjr said:


> Lively debate here! I was disappointed when I opened the case honestly. I spent some good money on this Strat, and it was sold in mint condition.
> After speaking with Reverb and the seller, I was going to go the full refund route. The seller wasn't too pleased that under the rules, he would have to pay return shipping on top of the refund. It never came up, but I'm sure he wouldn't be too thrilled about trying to resell that guitar. So i offered to keep it, forgo the hassle of returning and thought that 20% number was fair compromise and he agreed. Everything is all good.


This is why I neither deal with paypal, reverb or ebay. How would the seller know that an action you did cause this or not. Anyone who has a guitar delivered in the deep cold winter and opens the case with out warming is asking for this to happen. I'm not saying you did but how does anyone know whether you did or not. So that means a buyer can take it out of the case, accidentally drop it, taking a chunk out of it then say it came shipped that way and the buyer is on the hook? I've sold many very expensive custom shop guitars and the only way I accept payment is EMT. I know the guitars go in the case exactly as described and I use proper shipping boxes and they're insured.


----------



## Guest (Jan 24, 2019)

Yes and with PayPal the claim can be made 6 months less a day from when the buyer received it. PayPal will almost always side with the buyer.


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Seller is responsible for getting the item to the seller in the condition it was sold. Period. Did the seller take every precaution to ship the guitar safely? Not really. That's why buyers like those sites. And yes, you probably could get away with taking a chunk out of it and saying you want a partial refund, but you better hope the other guy didn't take detailed pictures. If I was shipping a guitar at this time of year I would wrap it in a few dollar store towels, wrap that in saran wrap. then go to town with the bubble wrap. 

(On ebay if you sell a guitar without CITES paperwork and the guitar is confiscated, the seller is responsible to give your money back.  Not sure what reverb's policy is on that one)

Not guitars, but I think it applies, I know a guy who sells LED conversions for your car. Send him your cluster he will change the color for you. He had tons of people complaining to PayPal there was something wrong with his stuff. Or he didn't ship it. It was damaged, wrong color you name it. All bull shit because i order from him quite a bit and recommend him to my friends. No complaints. Now when you order something he sends a video of him testing the item, putting it in the box, putting the label on and shows you your name address and tracking number on the label. The complaints to PayPal stopped.


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

StevieMac said:


> All I was asking about in this case is where the 20% devaluation came from. Is it for assuming some risk on planned resale? Is there some objective standard from whence it arose? Or has the buyer decided that, for them personally, they could "live with it" at that particular price reduction? ALL of those may be valid explanations and it's _just_ a question.


That's an easy one. The 20% was a negotiation agreed to by both the seller and the buyer. I did not know the seller was responsible for return shipping. It's a shame it happened and it was the second time for the seller. Nobody expected -25C in Canada in the winter. We can all learn from this and make sure it never happens to any GC members again.


----------



## JonnyD (Sep 20, 2016)

I’m still debating on putting one of my guitars outside! Free relic closet classic look.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Guitar101 said:


> That's an easy one. The 20% was a negotiation agreed to by both the seller and the buyer. I did not know the seller was responsible for return shipping. It's a shame it happened and it was the second time for the seller. *Nobody expected -25C in Canada in the winter.* We can all learn from this and make sure it never happens to any GC members again.


This is Canada. How stupid do you have to be not to expect cold weather in Canada in the winter. As far as I'm concerned the buyer took advantage of the seller. The seller was caught between a rock and a hard place. I'll make sure to note the OP and do no business with him.


----------



## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

JonnyD said:


> No not all nitro finishes will crack but don’t bing it out to a gig in the winter, over to your buddies to jam or expose it to sunlight.


I've done a couple winter festivals...left my guitar in the car for the day leading up to the gig...and then left it in the case for a day after taking it home...paint came out fine...

I get that not all guitars are the same...but if you use caution, you should be ok...that said again, it wasn't an expensive guitar lilke my Suhr or an R8 that I did the gig with...


----------



## JonnyD (Sep 20, 2016)

Oh yeah I’m sure if you let it properly warm up it should be ok. It’s not cold weather it’s extreme cold weather and then a blast of warm are instantly after coming from the cold. That’s what happened in my case.


----------



## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

There's a lot of banter in this thread about "nitro". A distinction needs to be made about true nitro (or nitrocellulose lacquer) vs what is largely being used today which is lacquer with plasticizers (acrylics) added to prevent the cracking that everyone is talking about. Back in the day (circa 50's and 60's) all that was used was nitrocellulose lacquer or "nitro" for automotive applications, furniture and yes, musical instruments. Lacquer checking was seen as something undesirable so paint manufacturers began adding plasticizers to prevent or at least minimize checking. And yes, checking is largely due to drastic temperature fluctuations. It is very hard to find true nitro these days and in fact most guitar manufacturers that market "nitro" don't use what is truly nitrocellulose. There are exceptions of course and many variations of finish including lacquer over poly which is a whole other story. The point is, under severe temperature variations, lacquer (whether it is acrylic or nitro) will crack albeit nitro will be significantly more severe. I've seen poly crack as well under adverse conditions although not as readily or as severe. So if you're purchasing a newer Fender or Gibson which advertises a lacquer (or nitro) finish, consider that there is a very good chance it will crack under severe temperature variations. If you're purchasing an older instrument that truly is "nitro" expect it to crack under the same conditions.


----------



## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

Swervin55 said:


> There's a lot of banter in this thread about "nitro". A distinction needs to be made about true nitro (or nitrocellulose lacquer) vs what is largely being used today which is lacquer with plasticizers (acrylics) added to prevent the cracking that everyone is talking about. Back in the day (circa 50's and 60's) all that was used was nitrocellulose lacquer or "nitro" for automotive applications, furniture and yes, musical instruments. Lacquer checking was seen as something undesirable so paint manufacturers began adding plasticizers to prevent or at least minimize checking. And yes, checking is largely due to drastic temperature fluctuations. It is very hard to find true nitro these days and in fact most guitar manufacturers that market "nitro" don't use what is truly nitrocellulose. There are exceptions of course and many variations of finish including lacquer over poly which is a whole other story. The point is, under severe temperature variations, lacquer (whether it is acrylic or nitro) will crack albeit nitro will be significantly more severe. I've seen poly crack as well under adverse conditions although not as readily or as severe. So if you're purchasing a newer Fender or Gibson which advertises a lacquer (or nitro) finish, consider that there is a very good chance it will crack under severe temperature variations. If you're purchasing an older instrument that truly is "nitro" expect it to crack under the same conditions.



Well, apparently Fender could have added more plasticizer to the mix used on the guitar the OP received


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

JonnyD said:


> I’m still debating on putting one of my guitars outside! Free relic closet classic look.


Be careful. I put a relic guitar with checking out in my car in -25C weather because I wanted more checking and when I opened the case the guitar was perfect. All the checking was gone and it even had new strings.


----------



## JonnyD (Sep 20, 2016)

Yeah I’m not going to put it outside but new strings would be nice!


----------



## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

StevieMac said:


> Well, apparently Fender could have added more plasticizer to the mix used on the guitar the OP received


Right! I don't know enough about what Fender used on the OP's guitar but the checking in the photos is very much like vintage nitro (as opposed say to someone who put a newer Les Paul in the freezer or the trunk overnight trying to get the same effect). Plasticized lacquer tends to be unpredictable in the direction it might check.


----------



## sillyak (Oct 22, 2016)

All About… Nitrocellulose - Guitar.com | All Things Guitar


I found the above article very informative.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I am so sorry to see what happened to your new guitar. That has to be very frustrating to say the least. I know the nitro finish is one of the best but living in the north, I would try to never have it on one of my guitars. I hope you get properly compensated.


----------



## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

So, we can all see first hand why Fender ditched nitro ASAP. Can you imagine all the shipments of new guitars that ended up returned to the factory because of checking? Or the warrantee claims? Imagine making several thousand guitars per month then worrying about how many would be returned because of cracks. 
Now it has an aura of ‘cool vintage’ about it but back then it was flaw! 
As for this AVRI, if it was my guitar I’d do a few more cold-hot cycles but also get it professionally reliced with a few choice dings and chips and wear marks. It’s a great looking guitar, and I think the checking does add the expected bit of ‘vintage’ to it.


----------



## madhermit (Dec 31, 2017)

JonnyD said:


> I’m still debating on putting one of my guitars outside! Free relic closet classic look.


There is a video of Danish Pete from Andertons causing his goldtop Les Paul to check by heating it with a hairdryer, then spraying it with canned air (which gets icy cold). I dig the look on goldtops for some reason.

Anyone know if this would work on a satin finished nitro guitar? I have a 2018 Les Paul Tribute goldtop I am thinking of doing this to.

January in Canada is a dangerous time for ‘inquisitiveness due to boredom’ to set in sometimes.


----------



## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Swervin55 said:


> There's a lot of banter in this thread about "nitro". A distinction needs to be made about true nitro (or nitrocellulose lacquer) vs what is largely being used today which is lacquer with plasticizers (acrylics) added to prevent the cracking that everyone is talking about. Back in the day (circa 50's and 60's) all that was used was nitrocellulose lacquer or "nitro" for automotive applications, furniture and yes, musical instruments. Lacquer checking was seen as something undesirable so paint manufacturers began adding plasticizers to prevent or at least minimize checking. And yes, checking is largely due to drastic temperature fluctuations. It is very hard to find true nitro these days and in fact most guitar manufacturers that market "nitro" don't use what is truly nitrocellulose. There are exceptions of course and many variations of finish including lacquer over poly which is a whole other story. The point is, under severe temperature variations, lacquer (whether it is acrylic or nitro) will crack albeit nitro will be significantly more severe. I've seen poly crack as well under adverse conditions although not as readily or as severe. So if you're purchasing a newer Fender or Gibson which advertises a lacquer (or nitro) finish, consider that there is a very good chance it will crack under severe temperature variations. If you're purchasing an older instrument that truly is "nitro" expect it to crack under the same conditions.


Poly doesn't crack nearly as pretty either


----------



## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

madhermit said:


> There is a video of Danish Pete from Andertons causing his goldtop Les Paul to check by heating it with a hairdryer, then spraying it with canned air (which gets icy cold). I dig the look on goldtops for some reason.
> 
> Anyone know if this would work on a satin finished nitro guitar? I have a 2018 Les Paul Tribute goldtop I am thinking of doing this to.
> 
> January in Canada is a dangerous time for ‘inquisitiveness due to boredom’ to set in sometimes.


This confirms, a bit, what I think happens. Sudden cold shrinks the outer coating before the wood can shrink from the drop in temperature. So the coating is put under tension stress and cracks. 
Sudden warmth might do the same thing, but the coating is put into compression so it might crack in different places. So I think sudden extremes either way could do it. 
For shipping I guess wrapping it in lots of insulating material, like bubble wrap might help insulate it and keep the rate of any temperature changes low. 
But a friend had his AVRI Strat check under his bed over a winter, just from being in a colder room. So, is just being too cold what really does it?


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> This is why I neither deal with paypal, reverb or ebay. How would the seller know that an action you did cause this or not. Anyone who has a guitar delivered in the deep cold winter and opens the case with out warming is asking for this to happen. I'm not saying you did but how does anyone know whether you did or not. So that means a buyer can take it out of the case, accidentally drop it, taking a chunk out of it then say it came shipped that way and the buyer is on the hook? I've sold many very expensive custom shop guitars and the only way I accept payment is EMT. I know the guitars go in the case exactly as described and I use proper shipping boxes and they're insured.


I don't think this seller will be shipping anywhere North in the winter anymore. 

Unless it's something I am not very worried about or I don't see as fragile, there's no way I am having it shipped this time of year. It can go from temps of hovering around just over zero, to - 20 here within a day this time of year. Last night was into the - 20's with the windchill again. There's no way I trust shipping anything valuable in that weather. 

Even with a box of clothes I had shipped last week that arrived next day, the box was absolutely freezing to the touch when I signed for it. The thought of something taking a few days or a week like that is scary.


----------



## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

IMO, if you’re going to buy nitro finished guitars you have to accept that they’ll behave like a nitro finish.

Personally, I’m in agreeance that the buyer took advantage of the seller. You bought a nitro guitar in winter, then complained to the seller and wanted a refund when it behaved like a nitro guitar in winter. What did you think would happen? That it would arrive like it was still in Texas?
I 
Personally, I’m irritated that in this case the seller is responsible for the buyer’s ignorance. Sorry if this offends you, but you ripped that guy off.


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

_Azrael said:


> IMO, if you’re going to buy nitro finished guitars you have to accept that they’ll behave like a nitro finish.
> 
> Personally, I’m in agreeance that the buyer took advantage of the seller. You bought a nitro guitar in winter, then complained to the seller and wanted a refund when it behaved like a nitro guitar in winter. What did you think would happen? That it would arrive like it was still in Texas?
> I
> Personally, I’m irritated that in this case the seller is responsible for the buyer’s ignorance. Sorry if this offends you, but you ripped that guy off.


I do think the sellers need to educate themselves as well though. He's learned an unfortunate lesson the hard way though. 

As a buyer, there's no way I could file any kind of claim on this though if it was me. I know exactly what can go wrong having an item shipped in a Canadian winter.


----------



## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

torndownunit said:


> I do think the sellers need to educate themselves as well though. He's learned an unfortunate lesson the hard way though.


Yes. Next time someone makes a claim against the finish refer them to Fender and their disclaimer about nitro, then state that the finish performed as per factory specification.

The whole reason people want these guitars is because they crack and age faster...


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

_Azrael said:


> Yes. Next time someone makes a claim against the finish refer them to Fender and their disclaimer about nitro, then state that the finish performed as per factory specification.
> 
> The whole reason people want these guitars is because they crack and age faster...


The OP found a way to scam the seller and get the guitar for a cheaper price. I'd advise anyone to make note of his username and avoid dealing with.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> The OP found a way to scam the seller and get the guitar for a cheaper price. I'd advise anyone to make note of his username and avoid dealing with.


I find this post to be overly presumptive and very harsh.

Did you read the prior 92 posts in the thread?


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

greco said:


> I find this post to be overly presumptive and very harsh.
> 
> Did you read the prior 92 posts in the thread?


I read every post thoroughly. The user obviously has little understanding of the caveats of nitro finishes. Even with nitro finishes you don't open up the case of a recently delivered guitar till it has had a chance to warm up. Now of course we have no evidence he did. But given his limited understanding of guitar finishes and extreme temperature fluctuations most likely it is the case. Although I'll bet he'd never admit it.
So in the case of the seller, his choices were to give a 20% reduction in price or take the guitar back suffering far greater loss than the 20%. This is where any predator would of course jump on the chance to keep the guitar and have a 20% reduction in the price. To the buyer who said he was so dissapointed. But not dissapointed enough not to jump on the chance to bilk the seller for some money because Reverb says so.
I'll agree with you Greco. My judgment is harsh. Not near as harsh as what the OP did to the seller. But the OP shouldn't worry about my judgement of him. It didn't cost him a cent.


----------



## JonnyD (Sep 20, 2016)

The OP was looking for advice on who to blame or who to start a case with. The title says it all, shipping gone wrong, nitro cracks. 

Seems he knew about nitro finishes from the title and shipping gone wrong. Seemed to show up fairly quick considering it came from Texas. 

The only thing that went wrong was the weather. So I guess you can claim and get money back for weather conditions. That’s a definate loop hole.


----------



## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

This thread was destined for shitshow status.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> Not near as harsh as what the *OP* did to the *buyer*.


typo?


----------



## Davestp1 (Apr 25, 2006)

_There is a video of Danish Pete from Andertons causing his goldtop Les Paul to check by heating it with a hairdryer, then spraying it with canned air (which gets icy cold). I dig the look on goldtops for some reason_.

This is what I did with an MJT vintage white strat I bought a while back and posted photos...Heat with a hair dryer, blast with a can of compressed air (holding the can upside down). Took about 2 cans to do the entire body but it turned out very nicely.


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Davestp1 said:


> _There is a video of Danish Pete from Andertons causing his goldtop Les Paul to check by heating it with a hairdryer, then spraying it with canned air (which gets icy cold). I dig the look on goldtops for some reason_.
> 
> This is what I did with an MJT vintage white strat I bought a while back and posted photos...Heat with a hair dryer, blast with a can of compressed air (holding the can upside down). Took about 2 cans to do the entire body but it turned out very nicely.


"Please don't try this at home"


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

greco said:


> typo?


yup


----------



## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

After reading this, if I was the seller, I would insist on talking the guitar back, no discount.

In this crazy world, that guitar would sell just fine to someone who appreciates a natural relic finish.

The sad part is that the buyer would want to be compensated for certain costs associated with the purchase. The buyer should be somewhat responsible in this debacle. By this I mean, you are out brokerage fees, and you apply for any taxes, etc. back from the government.

Both parties involved should have known the risks involved with shipping this time of year. Why does the seller get all of the pain, and the buyer still gets a guitar that he likes and wants to keep. With a discount. Is the guitar really any less desirable?


----------



## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

This is not the sellers fault and unfortunately, one of these events or transactions that fall into “no mans land” for resolution.

The nitro would have cracked due to the instrument being cold and hitting warm air as the case was opened. Some dealers will recommend to only open the case after a couple days and some dealers will not ship in very cold temperature. Was the case cold prior to opening?

This is the inherent risk of buying used and dealing with sellers that are not in the business of selling gear - Sometimes things can go awry and that’s why the sticker price is discounted compared to buying from a dealer. There is an amount of risk to be assumed by the buyer in these types of transactions. That’s why I buy new. YMMV.

Cheers


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Alex said:


> This is not the sellers fault and unfortunately, one of these events or transactions that fall into “no mans land” for resolution.
> 
> The nitro would have cracked due to the instrument being cold and hitting warm air as the case was opened. Some dealers will recommend to only open the case after a couple days and some dealers will not ship in very cold temperature. Was the case cold prior to opening?
> 
> ...


This is why I'll never deal with reverb, ebay or paypal. Among other nightmares those services can have.
This would be a good learning lesson for the seller though. If I sell another guitar in the winter I'll know to warn that finish cracking is a possibility. I've never really thought of something like this happening. I just sold a very expensive custom shop strat to someone in Quebec some months ago and even if it had been winter I would have never thought to warn them that something like this could happen. Although it was a journeyman relic it didn't have any finish cracks. 
I guess this another reason to like relic guitars. I'm sick of those guys who expect to pay 50% of a guitars value for a guitar thats in show room condition. 
I had a guy in my house once wanting to buy a Martin D-18GE from me that was in show room condition yet he swears he could see or feel a dent even though I got out a big magnifying glass with a light and scrutinized it looking for this phantom blemish. He tried to get me down 15%. In the end I said take it or leave it and he took it. Imagine the nightmare if I'd shipped paypal or sold on reverb or ebay. The idiot would have scammed me and got away with it. 
And now you all know why I feel so harshly towards the OP about this topic.


----------



## vokey design (Oct 24, 2006)

Bluesjr said:


> The seller isn't to blame for sure.



So why does he owe you a partial refund?


----------



## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

Reverb, Ebay, and the like should take some responsibility for encouraging sales taking place year round. The risk of damage during shipping seems to be deemed the sellers fault, even though packaging and shipping was done correctly.

But that will never happen.


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Alex said:


> This is not the sellers fault and unfortunately, one of these events or transactions that fall into “no mans land” for resolution.
> 
> The nitro would have cracked due to the instrument being cold and hitting warm air as the case was opened. Some dealers will recommend to only open the case after a couple days and some dealers will not ship in very cold temperature. Was the case cold prior to opening?
> 
> ...


The seller is in such a lose lose position. I assume if he asked it sent back instead of the discount, he'd have to pick up the shipping? The try to resell explaining the relicing. It's a situation where the easiest option is to eat 20% to be done with the problem. And that really sucks. While he wasn't smart shipping this time of year, he's done nothing wrong procedure wise.


----------



## Bluesjr (Nov 2, 2013)

Wow what a shit show indeed. Didn't check in the last few days, and this morning I find all these keyboard critics making assumptions, accusations and character bashing. It's the internet after all right.
You fellas must feel good getting all this hate and anger off your chests huh? I really don't care for your opinions, and you know where you can put them.

For those who care, I see a guitar I like on Reverb. It's an impulse buy, because I like the colour. I ask the seller if he would send it to Toronto, he says sure if i pay the shipping. I say ok.
His ad says the guitar is mint, unplayed perfect yada yada yada. The pictures look good. I send him payment in full right away, well north of $2k CAD with the added freight.

He ships the guitar on a Thursday, I receive it at my office late in the day the next Tuesday. I put the box in my car when I leave work, and open up it later that evening. Pop the case open, the guitar has all those finish cracks.
Wow, this has never happened to me before. I have 3 other Fender AVRI guitars, a couple of Gibsons and none have those cracks. I'm really disappointed, it's not what I bought right? I bought a mint, unplayed guitar. I paid alot of money for it!

I took pictures, and sent them off to the seller. I believe i was polite. The seller begins to go on a rant, blaming FEDEX, CDN customs, the weather and lastly myself. He said I should have waited a week to open the box yada yada yada.
Umm, no. I want to see what I bought. Anyway, he says that he's not taking it back, that's how it goes it's a nitro guitar shit happens etc. Much like some of you keyboard critics said. Then he asks me to tell Reverb to release his payment.
That's when I went on this forum to ask what my options are, because this has never happened to me.

I got in touch with Reverb, and after looking at my pictures etc, they said i have the right to ask for a full refund. On top of that, because of the rules the seller would have to pay the full freight back to himself.
I messaged the seller, and told him this. He went beserk again. So I requested a full refund, and asked him to check with Reverb. 

So after he spoke with Reverb, he came back to me and said that he didn't want the guitar back, didn't want to pay the return freight because he needed the money. Can we figure out a solution?
I'm buying a product here, just because it's a guitar doesn't make it special. I paid alot of money. If i bought a can opener off this guy, and it arrived not as advertised I would send it back. It's a business transaction.
The seller chose to list with Reverb, and chose to send the guitar to Canada. He has to play by the rules, otherwise he could of just listed it on CL locally and be done with it.
I just liked the guitar, and wanted it. No malice on my end, and none on his. 

We went back and forth a few times, because honestly i had a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe $2k+ is not alot of money for some of you, buts it's a big purchase for me. I was ready to ship it back, get my refund and that's that.
We negotiated and figured a 20% partial refund of the full amount including the freight that i paid for was fair for both of us. He gets his money, not exactly what he expected and I get the guitar not exactly that I expected. 
It's not a perfect solution but it works. 

At the end of the day, it's a business transaction. That's it. No one scammed anyone. Thanks.


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Tone Chaser said:


> Reverb, Ebay, and the like should take some responsibility for encouraging sales taking place year round. The risk of damage during shipping seems to be deemed the sellers fault, even though packaging and shipping was done correctly.
> 
> But that will never happen.


I personally don't think that's their responsibility. People are buying and shipping specialized items. They should know these issues.


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Bluesjr said:


> Wow what a shit show indeed. Didn't check in the last few days, and this morning I find all these keyboard critics making assumptions, accusations and character bashing. It's the internet after all right.
> You fellas must feel good getting all this hate and anger off your chests huh? I really don't care for your opinions, and you know where you can put them.
> 
> For those who care, I see a guitar I like on Reverb. It's an impulse buy, because I like the colour. I ask the seller if he would send it to Toronto, he says sure if i pay the shipping. I say ok.
> ...


Um. You posted this thread. And you must have had some inkling it could lead to some possibly heated discussions. If you don't want opinions, then don't post asking people for them. I would have never posted this thread, or the resolution to the issue Ever. I would have fully expected to get heat if I did due to the nature of the issue.

You are dealing with people who sell gear, or have small businesses where we have to deal with stuff like this. So ya, it's a touchy point for some.


----------



## Bluesjr (Nov 2, 2013)

torndownunit said:


> Um. You posted this thread. And you must have had some inkling it could lead to some possibly heated discussions. If you don't want opinions, then don't post asking people for them. I would have never posted this thread, or the resolution to the issue EVER.


Yep my bad. I asked for advice, and few ppl on here were very helpful and i thank them. Some of you, not so much. Ah well.


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Bluesjr said:


> Yep my bad. I asked for advice, and few ppl on here were very helpful and i thank them. Some of you, not so much. Ah well.


Again, there are people here who sell a lot of gear. So they are going to be empathetic with the seller. You can expect with any controversial topic that it's going to be a split opinion. That's what a discussion forum is. But you can't be upset at people for voicing an opinion in a thread where you asked for opinions.


----------



## Guest (Jan 28, 2019)

I've never dealt with a shipped guitar, to or from.
Reading this thread was informative to me.


----------



## Bluesjr (Nov 2, 2013)

torndownunit said:


> Again, there are people here who sell a lot of gear. So they are going to be empathetic with the seller. You can expect with any controversial topic that it's going to be a split opinion. That's what a discussion forum is. But you can't be upset at people for voicing an opinion in a thread where you asked for opinions.


That's cool, understood. I run my own business myself, so i know how it feels to get grinded by a customer. Happens all the time. If receive faulty product from a supplier, I do the same. It's business.


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

laristotle said:


> I've never dealt with a shipped guitar, to or from.
> Reading this thread was informative to me.


Yes, clearly even the most experienced of us don't take a lot of issues with shipping in the winter into account. And, I think it's important that sellers post their experiences as well because a lot of people still aren't aware that using services like Reverb and payment methods like PayPal, the buyer will almost always win a dispute. I learn a lot reading sellers experiences.


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

greco said:


> I find this post to be overly presumptive and very harsh.
> 
> Did you read the prior 92 posts in the thread?


I put 2 people on my ignore list after reading their harsh and rude posts. The next time I looked, their posts had disappeared. Now I don't know whether I should leave them on my ignore list or not. Very difficult decision, "What would Greco do?" I already know what you would do Greco. Your one of the nicest people on the forum and I will go ahead and remove them from my ignore list. Nobody's perfect. Well, very few of us are anyway.


----------



## bigboki (Apr 16, 2015)

Guitar101 said:


> I put 2 people on my ignore list after reading their harsh and rude posts. The next time I looked, their posts had disappeared. Now I don't know whether I should leave them on my ignore list or not. Very difficult decision, "What would Greco do?" I already know what you would do Greco. Your one of the nicest people on the forum and I will go ahead and remove them from my ignore list. Nobody's perfect. Well, very few of us are anyway.


I think the reason why their posts disappeared is exactly because you put them on ignore list.
If you remove them from ignore list, I think those posts will reappear. I think that is how forum and ignore is working.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Is the thread dead now? It was a great way to use up part of my breaks at work.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Guitar101 said:


> "What would Greco do?


Mrs Greco would advise never basing any decisions on that premise.

Thanks for the kind words.


----------



## Guest (Jan 28, 2019)

Budda said:


> Is the thread dead now?


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

bigboki said:


> I think the reason why their posts disappeared is exactly because you put them on ignore list.
> If you remove them from ignore list, I think those posts will reappear. I think that is how forum and ignore is working.


I will let you know. They were pretty bad.


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Budda said:


> Is the thread dead now? It was a great way to use up part of my breaks at work.


I wouldn't count on it.^)@#


----------



## madhermit (Dec 31, 2017)

Guitar101 said:


> I will let you know. They were pretty bad.


The suspense is killing me! Did the posts come back or not???


----------



## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

Imo, it's a shitty situation for both parties. If I were either of the two, I wouldn't be happy. But part of me thinks both of you should have been aware of what can happen when guitars are exposed to cold temps. With so many posts about this topic, anyone who participates on a guitar forum surely must be aware of this. No? 

"Umm, no. I want to see what I bought"

That line tho is where you kinda lose me a bit. I'm not saying it cracked then or at Customs or wherever but had you let it sit and become acclimated for 24 hours (which for sure would be tough to do when you want to play it) then I believe you'd get more sympathetic responses because you had done your due diligence in regards to dealing with guitars and cold temps --- as opposed to not being able to contain your excitement and opening it.


----------



## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

torndownunit said:


> The seller is in such a lose lose position. I assume if he asked it sent back instead of the discount, he'd have to pick up the shipping? The try to resell explaining the relicing. It's a situation where the easiest option is to eat 20% to be done with the problem. And that really sucks. While he wasn't smart shipping this time of year, he's done nothing wrong procedure wise.


The seller appears to be located in Texas and from what I can tell, is not in the business of selling gear. The devil’s advocate response is the buyer could have warned the seller that the temperatures are on the colder side up in Canuckland. 
I would expect a dealer to know this but not take for granted an individual selling gear.

This was a private sale between two individuals. A business transaction entails that one of the parties is in the business of selling/buying gear. A business means; registered, insured for various coverages, declares and reports income to various governing bodies, for profit etc. I always say, I am not in the business of selling gear, it’s a hobby. It is NOT a business transaction when I sell to an individual. That’s why you get a big discount on price and when sh*t happens, you gotta take your lumps unless the other party is grossly negligent.

Sorry for your headache OP - the guitar looks cool to me!


----------



## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

I have only bought one long distance, January extreme cold weather purchase, from a forum member. Alberta to Ontario.

I let the Stratocaster sit in the well packaged box for 24 hours in my 50 F moderately heated garage. Then 12 hours in the house before it got opened.

That required patience was extremely hard to apply, but the guitar was worth waiting for. I know that I could have shaved a few hours off here and there, but I really wanted to be sure.


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

madhermit said:


> The suspense is killing me! Did the posts come back or not???


One minute . . . . Well I'll be darned. Yes they did. And here I thought they had a change of heart and deleted the offending posts.


----------



## bigboki (Apr 16, 2015)

Guitar101 said:


> One minute . . . . Well I'll be darned. Yes they did. And here I thought they had a change of heart and deleted the offending posts.


Thank you for testing this - so when you block somebody, forum simply doesn't show their posts anymore.
Sometimes you will get confused when somebody is replying something that seems completely out of context - reply to a post from your blocked person. 
You will get used to it though


----------



## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

FWIW, I _just_ received a nitro finished guitar sent from Victoria exactly 1 week ago. I assume that a fair amount of handling occurred along the way and I know for sure it sat somewhere in ON over the weekend. Finally, delivery day (yesterday) was easily the coldest day we've had this winter @ ~ -25c.

In any event, I still had a pristine guitar waiting for me when I opened the case 8 hrs after arrival. That said, the case itself had 3 layers of bubble wrap around it, the guitar was double boxed, and a shit ton of packing materials was used in the outer box to protect everything. THAT is how you guard against winter conditions IMO, along with exercising patience when it arrives. I'm sure it helped that the guitar came from another Canuck, who obviously knew what to expect this time of year.

Was I somewhat concerned along the way? Yes.
Had it arrived with weather checking, would I have been disappointed? Absolutely.
Would I have tried to go back on the seller (or carrier) for weather checking? Not a chance.


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

bigboki said:


> Thank you for testing this - so when you block somebody, forum simply doesn't show their posts anymore.
> Sometimes you will get confused when somebody is replying something that seems completely out of context - reply to a post from your blocked person.
> You will get used to it though


When someone on my ignore list posts something in a thread, I do get a notice, something like "?????? has posted something in this thread. Do you want to unblock it?" What I didn't know is that, when I put someone on my ignore list, all of their previous posts disappear in that thread. Thanks for pointing that out.

I only use the ignore feature if someone is extremely rude or is disrespecting another forum member. Don't worry if your on my ignore list, I'll always give you another chance when I think your trying to become a better person.

Hmmm, what was this thread about again?


----------



## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

Well one thing for sure , this post brings out the true colors of some of the people on here, absolutely horrible to insinuate that this was his plan to scam the seller...I been around a long time and these people that condemn his ways of doing business would be the first in line to look for some cash.
There could have been the possible the seller did not pack the guitar properly , how about going down that road instead of attacking a forum member that your suppose to be helping..This is not the Gear Page..


----------



## JonnyD (Sep 20, 2016)

Rick31797 said:


> Well one thing for sure , this post brings out the true colors of some of the people on here, absolutely horrible to insinuate that this was his plan to scam the seller...I been around a long time and these people that condemn his ways of doing business would be the first in line to look for some cash.
> There could have been the possible the seller did not pack the guitar properly , how about going down that road instead of attacking a forum member that your suppose to be helping..This is not the Gear Page..


^^^
Then you go and bash the gear page?


This was definitely an interesting thread. I don’t think anyone was really bashing the OP. Maybe a few I guess. Mostly the situation. Yeah it’s a business transaction as he said. 

I think people took offence because the deals I’ve done on here with the members, I hope to do business with again. Reverb may not be like that. So we build a trade relationship with most on here. 

I post something for sale or trade to fund another project mostly. So imagine selling your guitar for $2500, spending the money and then the weather messes up the gear you just sold. Now your trying to come up with $2500. It’s not like you did anything wrong. Even still coming up with the $500(20% discount) may even tough to come up with. 

Yeah as pure rules it did not show up as described. The guitar is beautiful and I’m currently looking for one. In the end it was worked out and resolved.


----------



## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

I also learned a lot from this thread. I learned that there may be a number of members here who I'd never consider buying an instrument from because of the comments they provided. Particularly if they run a business. Thanks for the info. Glad you got your issue resolved OP.


----------



## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

I am glad the buyer and seller reached an resolution.


----------



## JonnyD (Sep 20, 2016)

The buyer was posting to ask who to put the blame on, I didn’t say he was scamming or trying to scam anyone. 

Yeah I get the rules, seller is responsible. Cool. Both parties should have realized its coming from Texas at plus 100 to Canada at minus 100. 

The seller is to blame because he properly packed it and sent it out. Did not arrive as described as per rules. Sellers fault.


----------



## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

JonnyD said:


> The buyer was posting to ask who to put the blame on, I didn’t say he was scamming or trying to scam anyone.
> 
> Yeah I get the rules, seller is responsible. Cool. Both parties should have realized its coming from Texas at plus 100 to Canada at minus 100.
> 
> The seller is to blame because he properly packed it and sent it out. Did not arrive as described as per rules. Sellers fault.


Interesting play on words there. I thought the OP was asking if he had a case to claim damaged goods and who to go through to resolve the issue. Seems to be resolved. Case closed for those who want it to be.


----------



## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Buyer didn't wait long enough before opening the case. Knows how nitro reacts. His fault on that.

Seller didn't take a video of him packaging the instrument in brand new condition. His fault on that. 
Don't think it was a way to scam someone, but the buyer made a mistake and the way these transactions work is that it's on the seller. 
Glad you came to a resolution.


----------



## Larry (Sep 3, 2016)

This bump is for 9 volt.


----------

