# Klon KTR - why so expensive?



## Flaccid Chaos (Dec 19, 2021)

I did a little research and as far as I can tell these are still in production. There seems to be a pause in production, though, maybe to do with supply chain issues, but they'll be back. There are 2 of these on Reverb right now for 2000$ each. Is it just the hype of its (in)famous predecessor or are people really that impatient to wait for them to be restocked? Even if they are discontinued, that would be recent. Correct me if I'm wrong about any of the production "facts" I've mentioned.

*apologies if this has been discussed before


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Production was spotty.

When the Klon Centaur was produced Bill Finnegan (designer/builder of the Klon) insisted that the 2 germanium diodes he used were the "straw that stirred the drink" so to speak. When he began production on the KTR he made sure those diodes were used. When you open up a KTR there's a message on the PCB that says "These are essential" with an arrow pointing to the two "magical" diodes. KTR production has always been spotty, and last year ceased altogether. Late in the year Bill Finnegan made potentially the worst produced video in the history of the platform in which he announced he was running out of magical diodes and that going forward they'd only be used in Klon Centaurs and that there would be a new run of KTR's made with different silicon diodes as to ensure production. So now the KTR's with the original magical diodes are rising in price, and as far as I'm aware the new ones are still nowhere to be found. Keep in mind that the highest priced versions are just people aiming for the moon and hoping they land on a star.

So long story short there is Klon Centaurs, Klon KTR V1's and there will be KTR V2's. Until the V2's start showing up you're only shopping for out of production pedals.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

2k?? That's nuts. I used to have 2, sold one and now I'm thinking I should've just kept it. Lol I have the one left still on my board.


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## Flaccid Chaos (Dec 19, 2021)

Thanks so much for that, I just learned a lot.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Flaccid Chaos said:


> Thanks so much for that, I just learned a lot.


I bought one about this time last year. So I paid over retail, but not these astronomical prices you're starting to see. They seem to be selling for $800-$1000 around the site these days. They are absolutely phenomenal pedals, but when you couple it with their newfound collectible status you end up paying a premium. That being said, I know several players who have multiple Klones at $200+ per pedal, and they often tell me "Oh, I've never played a real Klon, they're just too expensive." apparently not realizing you can buy a KTR for less money than they have tied up in Klones.

All that being said, when KTR prices started to go insane, I put mine back in it's box so my toddler wouldn't destroy it and bought a Wampler Tumnus Deluxe.


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## Griff (Sep 7, 2016)

Okay Player said:


> Production was spotty.
> 
> When the Klon Centaur was produced Bill Finnegan (designer/builder of the Klon) insisted that the 2 germanium diodes he used were the "straw that stirred the drink" so to speak. When he began production on the KTR he made sure those diodes were used. When you open up a KTR there's a message on the PCB that says "These are essential" with an arrow pointing to the two "magical" diodes. KTR production has always been spotty, and last year ceased altogether. Late in the year Bill Finnegan made potentially the worst produced video in the history of the platform in which he announced he was running out of magical diodes and that going forward they'd only be used in Klon Centaurs and that there would be a new run of KTR's made with different silicon diodes as to ensure production. So now the KTR's with the original magical diodes are rising in price, and as far as I'm aware the new ones are still nowhere to be found. Keep in mind that the highest priced versions are just people aiming for the moon and hoping they land on a star.
> 
> So long story short there is Klon Centaurs, Klon KTR V1's and there will be KTR V2's. Until the V2's start showing up you're only shopping for out of production pedals.


I think some of those 'V2s' have been sold, but the demand is far higher than the supply. Every retailer only gets a few and they are gone instantly. But I think I saw some for sale on Reverb at inflated prices shortly after that first run went out.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Griff said:


> I think some of those 'V2s' have been sold, but the demand is far higher than the supply. Every retailer only gets a few and they are gone instantly. But I think I saw some for sale on Reverb at inflated prices shortly after that first run went out.


I'm on a couple notification lists and haven't received anything yet, but it's certainly possible.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Holy crap @Griff , lol.









Klon KTR - Brand New 2021 Version (V2) | Reverb Canada


Brand new in box.




reverb.com


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Outrageous.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

If you don’t care how low you stoop, the Chinese clone on Amazon for under $50 is really good and solid feeling. I can’t find it on there rn, will link when I do, I posted about it here last year. A million times better sounding than the EHX klone I had a few years ago.


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

keto said:


> If you don’t care how low you stoop, the Chinese clone on Amazon for under $50 is really good and solid feeling. I can’t find it on there rn, will link when I do, I posted about it here last year. A million times better sounding than the EHX klone I had a few years ago.


Which one are you referring to?


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

sambonee said:


> Which one are you referring to?


Joyo Zip

https://www.amazon.ca/JOYO-Overdriv...al-instruments&sprefix=joyo+zip,mi,131&sr=1-1 Huh, $70 now, go figger.


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## ironrob2018 (Oct 16, 2021)

Hi, for the record, I'm an electronics engineering technologist by trade. There is absolutely nothing in any guitar pedal that justifies a price point over, let's say $200 dollars. I'm allowing for profit here, just to be clear. We are taught to design for minimum distortion, preservation of signal integrity, minimum noise and so on. Nobody goes to school to learn how to f'up signals, no one. These distortion, overdrive pedals are nothing but bad amplifiers and are stumbled upon by accident and experimentation, at least for the most part. Digital implementations have taken some work, but, they lack that certain, " je ne sais pas quoi". Kempers are awesome but eventually you want the real thing. Listen. Get a Les Paul Standard, get a JCM 800, and a boss Super Overdrive. Learn to play and all will be good.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Diamond-top Ge transistors:


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

ironrob2018 said:


> Hi, for the record, I'm an electronics engineering technologist by trade. There is absolutely nothing in any guitar pedal that justifies a price point over, let's say $200 dollars. I'm allowing for profit here, just to be clear. We are taught to design for minimum distortion, preservation of signal integrity, minimum noise and so on. Nobody goes to school to learn how to f'up signals, no one. These distortion, overdrive pedals are nothing but bad amplifiers and are stumbled upon by accident and experimentation, at least for the most part. Digital implementations have taken some work, but, they lack that certain, " je ne sais pas quoi". Kempers are awesome but eventually you want the real thing. Listen. Get a Les Paul Standard, get a JCM 800, and a boss Super Overdrive. Learn to play and all will be good.


orrrrrrrr .......

I could buy a $5000 not overdrive, overdrive pedal.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

ironrob2018 said:


> Hi, for the record, I'm an electronics engineering technologist by trade. There is absolutely nothing in any guitar pedal that justifies a price point over, let's say $200 dollars. I'm allowing for profit here, just to be clear. We are taught to design for minimum distortion, preservation of signal integrity, minimum noise and so on. Nobody goes to school to learn how to f'up signals, no one. These distortion, overdrive pedals are nothing but bad amplifiers and are stumbled upon by accident and experimentation, at least for the most part. Digital implementations have taken some work, but, they lack that certain, " je ne sais pas quoi". Kempers are awesome but eventually you want the real thing. Listen. Get a Les Paul Standard, get a JCM 800, and a boss Super Overdrive. Learn to play and all will be good.



What you say isn't untrue, if obviously very emotionally loaded for some reason, though your point about accidental design and just being bad amplifiers is actually just flat out wrong, but I don't want to argue that with you because it's really a side tangent to the issue here (and it kinda comes off as sour grapes).

The distinction you have failed to make that is key to the issue (pretty much defeats your entire thesis) is that at no time did a Klon sell new for more than a couple hundred bucks (well within reason given other boutique makers and close enough to your own stated reasonable limit). The insane prices are ALL on the used market where the reason for the price is group psychology, runnaway GAS of people with too much money, and incestuous online hype ( by users); so absolutely nothing to do with actual value or engineering, OR it must be said, the maker of the damn thing who sees not a penny of it. The fact is, QED in the used market, that an original Centaur is worth that much to somebody; somebody wants one that badly (despite knowing there are very accurate klones out there, the parts and R&D that went into it are not worth that much etc). As an electrical engineer you forget that there are other factors here, such as basic economics and the human element; the actual circuit is not nearly everything, at least not everything that contributes to a given person's value assessment. No it's not always rational - why would you reduce it to such?

With all the people complaining about the price of Klons, I am surprised I am not hearing anywhere near as much vitriol about the price of , I mean take your pick: Hiwatts, Dumbles, Fenders and Gibsons of certain vintage etc (like especially the shitty ones - the Kalamazoos with chipboard bodies that originally sold for < $100 but now go for up tto 1K). Never mind the clusterf*ck of the stock market at times.

The main thing I do not understand, given your described background, is why you even give a damn - just make yourself one and calm down already. Or design your own thing that's not a happy accident of a bad amplifier.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The build quality on the originals justified their retail price-point, at around $350. Everything after that is the greed of resale vendors and the impatience of buyers. The magic of the internet and Reverb is that one is not confined to the local market (i.e., an item with a price tag sitting in the display case for months on end), which means somewhere out there in the imaginary buyerland is a buyer with too much money and not enough self-restraint.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Pretty sure that the Klon circuit was not a happy accident random design but that the inner workings of it were carefully designed to do a very specific thing.
I think even the first fuzz or distortion circuits sold as a pedal weren't accidents either.


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## terminalvertigo (Jun 12, 2010)

tomee2 said:


> I think even the first fuzz or distortion circuits sold as a pedal weren't accidents either.







the first recorded "fuzz" was an accident!


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

keto said:


> Joyo Zip
> 
> https://www.amazon.ca/JOYO-Overdrive-Strong-Compression-Electric/dp/B085PQ8YNL/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1YFYGEC6CPGUP&keywords=Joyo+zip&qid=1645861424&s=musical-instruments&sprefix=joyo+zip,mi,131&sr=1-1 Huh, $70 now, go figger.


_*"Whole new appearance and the iconic R series ambience LED light bring out futuristic and retro styles, displaying a perfect fusion. R series will make your soul happy whether you are jamming in the bedroom, studio or on the stage."








*_


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

Time for a truth bomb. 
light sabers were poorly built flashlights.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

terminalvertigo said:


> the first recorded "fuzz" was an accident!


Yes, of course, but that's not what said.


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## libtech (May 27, 2008)

Some people want a 'real' one, great pedal, I built a sweet klone that is amazing using the accepted original parts, the ceriatone repro looks super close as well, Id go with one of those if I was shoping for one.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

tomee2 said:


> Pretty sure that the Klon circuit was not a happy accident random design but that the inner workings of it were carefully designed to do a very specific thing.
> I think even the first fuzz or distortion circuits sold as a pedal weren't accidents either.


A bit of both, actually. After a number of long chats with Bill Finnegan, it became clear to me that his two strengths were that he understood quality and consistency, and he has great ears. The design was actually cobbled together with a consulting engineer, because Bill is not really an electronics guy. Bill had asked me to see if I could get the circuit to do something that some undisclosed customers had requested and shipped me two ungooped boards to work with, one of them having every single component socketed, so that I could substitute different part values in search of the desired alteration, and readily compare it against the stock build. I have to say the overall design is an absolute house of cards. You know those houses you sometimes see where all the other ones on the block look like they were built from a plan, but this one house looks like it's the end result of a series of renovations and add-ons over the years? That's pretty much the design of the Klon. I'm not saying that's a *bad* thing, but it made it impossible for me to do what he was looking for, because changing this part-value over _here_ had undesired spillover effects over _there_ ("Yeah, that's a load-bearing wall, so you can't really take that out for your open-concept kitchen"). The design (he sent me schematics, too) is not the typical "linear" design of a drive pedal. Lots of things are going on in parallel, which screams of Bill asking the engineer "Could you add in a little of X too?".

Are the diodes critical? My own view is that a diode is a diode is a diode, and many of the differences between them have more to do with things well above the audio range. What's most critical is their _forward voltage_, since it will determine how much gain needs to be applied to result in clipping, and how much the resulting output amplitude might be constrained. And, since clipping alters the amount of harmonic content, a change in forward voltage also has implications for filtering out any unwanted high end arising. I can't swear to it, but part of me figures that Bill's reliance on particular diodes is really a matter of being able to use them in plug&play fashion, without having to change anything else to get the same audio result. I know that when he sent me his request, the constraints were that nothing in the original design or layout could be changed, apart from part values. So, no additional parts or new/rerouted traces required, just component-value changes. And that leads me to guess that he simply uses the diodes in question because it means nothing else has to be changed to get the intended sonic result. I've learned a lot in the intervening 14 years, and I imagine Bill has too, so there is no reason to assume he is inflexible. He was adamant at the time about using the 1/8" phone jack for external power, despite my strong encouragement to use a 2.1mm jack, but I see he has switched now, and also opts for a Hammond-type enclosure, instead of the custom sand-cast boxes.. So, I could be dead wrong about the diodes and his reasoning.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Anything that expensive (2k+) and I'd rather buy a guitar or amp. I just bought a new guitar and it makes my amp sound like a beautiful strat. The Klon pedal can't do that. 
Although the supply of Klons maybe low driving up their price the supply of pedals that can sound as good or better for a fraction of the cost is endless.


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## Flaccid Chaos (Dec 19, 2021)

guitarman2 said:


> Anything that expensive (2k+) and I'd rather buy a guitar or amp. I just bought a new guitar and it makes my amp sound like a beautiful strat. The Klon pedal can't do that.
> Although the supply of Klons maybe low driving up their price the supply of pedals that can sound as good or better for a fraction of the cost is endless.


I couldn't agree more. I'm thinking about buying a used Vox amp and I could probably buy an AC15 AND 30 for that much money.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

mhammer said:


> A bit of both, actually. After a number of long chats with Bill Finnegan, it became clear to me that his two strengths were that he understood quality and consistency, and he has great ears. The design was actually cobbled together with a consulting engineer, because Bill is not really an electronics guy. Bill had asked me to see if I could get the circuit to do something that some undisclosed customers had requested and shipped me two ungooped boards to work with, one of them having every single component socketed, so that I could substitute different part values in search of the desired alteration, and readily compare it against the stock build. I have to say the overall design is an absolute house of cards. You know those houses you sometimes see where all the other ones on the block look like they were built from a plan, but this one house looks like it's the end result of a series of renovations and add-ons over the years? That's pretty much the design of the Klon. I'm not saying that's a *bad* thing, but it made it impossible for me to do what he was looking for, because changing this part-value over _here_ had undesired spillover effects over _there_ ("Yeah, that's a load-bearing wall, so you can't really take that out for your open-concept kitchen"). The design (he sent me schematics, too) is not the typical "linear" design of a drive pedal. Lots of things are going on in parallel, which screams of Bill asking the engineer "Could you add in a little of X too?".
> 
> Are the diodes critical? My own view is that a diode is a diode is a diode, and many of the differences between them have more to do with things well above the audio range. What's most critical is their _forward voltage_, since it will determine how much gain needs to be applied to result in clipping, and how much the resulting output amplitude might be constrained. And, since clipping alters the amount of harmonic content, a change in forward voltage also has implications for filtering out any unwanted high end arising. I can't swear to it, but part of me figures that Bill's reliance on particular diodes is really a matter of being able to use them in plug&play fashion, without having to change anything else to get the same audio result. I know that when he sent me his request, the constraints were that nothing in the original design or layout could be changed, apart from part values. So, no additional parts or new/rerouted traces required, just component-value changes. And that leads me to guess that he simply uses the diodes in question because it means nothing else has to be changed to get the intended sonic result. I've learned a lot in the intervening 14 years, and I imagine Bill has too, so there is no reason to assume he is inflexible. He was adamant at the time about using the 1/8" phone jack for external power, despite my strong encouragement to use a 2.1mm jack, but I see he has switched now, and also opts for a Hammond-type enclosure, instead of the custom sand-cast boxes.. So, I could be dead wrong about the diodes and his reasoning.


I was hoping you'd chime in because I recalled you had some connection to the Klon, didn't realize it was that deep and early in the production!

My vague point was that he wasn't trying to make a linear amplifier for a ham radio, or an FM tuner, or a garage door opener and then accidentally discovered he had guitar pedal.... he started out trying to build a guitar pedal that did something specific, and maybe he got there or not, but in the end he ended up with a guitar pedal.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

tomee2 said:


> I was hoping you'd chime in because I recalled you had some connection to the Klon, didn't realize it was that deep and early in the production!
> 
> My vague point was that he wasn't trying to make a linear amplifier for a ham radio, or an FM tuner, or a garage door opener and then accidentally discovered he had guitar pedal.... he started out trying to build a guitar pedal that did something specific, and maybe he got there or not, but in the end he ended up with a guitar pedal.


Yeah, I think he had a particular vision, rather than a _design_, and pursued it with technical help. At the time - the mid-'90s - it was a relatively unique and forward-thinking vision. A decade or two later, the vision has been understood, appreciated, and pursued by others. Some simply copied Bill's product, and others came up with their own version of a similar product.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

The Ge diodes are much rarer than the Ge transistors now however, you can use a Ge transistor as a Ge diode by just connecting the base - emitter terminals...the base - emitter junction is a diode.
A Ge base - emitter junction, clamps the signal to 300mV, 600mV peak to peak when a bi-directional setup is used as in the Centaur...the 600mV clipping is essential and there is a mystic attraction to the behaviour of Ge.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

To answer the OP’s question: TGP. That’s why.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

My understanding is that there is no difference between using base-emitter or base-collector, with either path to the base functioning like a diode. Or is there something specific about the base-emitter path that I wasn't aware of? Not being facetious. There's a LOT about transistors I don't understand.

But that said, there are a LOT of NOS germanium transistors that are too leaky or whatever to be useful as amplification devices, but _can_ serve as diodes. I have drawers full of them. I did manage to make a decent-sounding Fuzz Face out of two Ge transistors the other day that are rarely, if ever, considered to be prime candidates, the 2SC281. I have another dozen or so. I'll have to measure them and see if there are any other pairs that would work.

But back to an earlier point: Bill is unlikely to want to use reject Ge transistors as diodes because it would likely mean redrafting the layout to make room for them. Although I suppose he might consider going that route if it allows him to extend the commercial life of the KTR. Any port in a storm, eh?


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

mhammer said:


> My understanding is that there is no difference between using base-emitter or base-collector, with either path to the base functioning like a diode.


The base-emitter and base-collector diodes may look identical physically and usually diode-test similarly with a DVM however, the dope concentrations in the emitter and collector regions of the transistor are quite different (has to do with current capacity differences of B to E and C to E; this causes the characteristics of the two diodes to be substantially different...this can be verified by a dynamic test such as with a curve tracer or in audio with a Centaur type pedal or any pedal that uses diode clipping as a fuzz or distortion effect.
I personally prefer the B to E mode for audio and temperature sensing.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Makes sense. Otherwise collector and emitter could be easily substituted for each other in any application.
But if one was to use an NPN and PNP pair of Ge transistors as if they were a 2+2 pair of diodes, by tying their bases together, like the picture, should that function more or less like a quartet of diodes with a combined forward voltage of around 500-600mv?


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## ironrob2018 (Oct 16, 2021)

Granny Gremlin said:


> What you say isn't untrue, if obviously very emotionally loaded for some reason, though your point about accidental design and just being bad amplifiers is actually just flat out wrong, but I don't want to argue that with you because it's really a side tangent to the issue here (and it kinda comes off as sour grapes).
> 
> The distinction you have failed to make that is key to the issue (pretty much defeats your entire thesis) is that at no time did a Klon sell new for more than a couple hundred bucks (well within reason given other boutique makers and close enough to your own stated reasonable limit). The insane prices are ALL on the used market where the reason for the price is group psychology, runnaway GAS of people with too much money, and incestuous online hype ( by users); so absolutely nothing to do with actual value or engineering, OR it must be said, the maker of the damn thing who sees not a penny of it. The fact is, QED in the used market, that an original Centaur is worth that much to somebody; somebody wants one that badly (despite knowing there are very accurate klones out there, the parts and R&D that went into it are not worth that much etc). As an electrical engineer you forget that there are other factors here, such as basic economics and the human element; the actual circuit is not nearly everything, at least not everything that contributes to a given person's value assessment. No it's not always rational - why would you reduce it to such?
> 
> ...


Are you calling me a liar Sir?:


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## ironrob2018 (Oct 16, 2021)

mhammer said:


> My understanding is that there is no difference between using base-emitter or base-collector, with either path to the base functioning like a diode. Or is there something specific about the base-emitter path that I wasn't aware of? Not being facetious. There's a LOT about transistors I don't understand.
> 
> But that said, there are a LOT of NOS germanium transistors that are too leaky or whatever to be useful as amplification devices, but _can_ serve as diodes. I have drawers full of them. I did manage to make a decent-sounding Fuzz Face out of two Ge transistors the other day that are rarely, if ever, considered to be prime candidates, the 2SC281. I have another dozen or so. I'll have to measure them and see if there are any other pairs that would work.
> 
> But back to an earlier point: Bill is unlikely to want to use reject Ge transistors as diodes because it would likely mean redrafting the layout to make room for them. Although I suppose he might consider going that route if it allows him to extend the commercial life of the KTR. Any port in a storm, eh?


As far as silicon transistors are concerned, the B-E junction is doped differently than the B-C junction. If you measure the B-E junction with a diode checker and compare it to the B-C junction it will always read slightly higher. I imagine germanium transistors are similar, but nearly no one uses those anymore and haven't for quite a while except of course fuzz pedal makers. Germanium has temperature coefficient issues. That's one reason they switched to silicon. 

I expect someone to pipe up any second now and call me a bull shitter. Love this place


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

ironrob2018 said:


> Hi, for the record, I'm an electronics engineering technologist by trade. There is absolutely nothing in any guitar pedal that justifies a price point over, let's say $200 dollars. I'm allowing for profit here, just to be clear. We are taught to design for minimum distortion, preservation of signal integrity, minimum noise and so on. Nobody goes to school to learn how to f'up signals, no one. These distortion, overdrive pedals are nothing but bad amplifiers and are stumbled upon by accident and experimentation, at least for the most part. Digital implementations have taken some work, but, they lack that certain, " je ne sais pas quoi". Kempers are awesome but eventually you want the real thing. Listen. Get a Les Paul Standard, get a JCM 800, and a boss Super Overdrive. Learn to play and all will be good.


At one level, you are correct. There are an infinite number of ways to "misdesign" an audio circuit and corrupt an audio signal, such that it bears only a passing resemblance to the original. But of course, anyone with musical aspirations will often search out something that differentiates them from others, And at this time in musical history, part of that is going to be finding a "different" distortion sound. I must have had 100 or more pass through my hands over the last 50 years, and there are probably another 40 sitting in the "bin of shame", waiting to be wired and boxed up (etching and stuffing a board is always the easiest and fastest part). NAnd even though after a while they all begin to sound the same, none of that stops me from thinking "Jeez, I wonder how they got that tone?" when I hear something on the radio. And more often than not, the device/pedal in question will be the result of R & D. Maybe not rocket science, but somebody sunk time and money in to coming up with a product that could reliably yield something a little different from everything else out there.

I've told this tale more times than I care to think about, but you're relatively new here so I'll repeat myself one more time.

The resources available to builders, including the inexpensive and plentiful board-production houses, the availability of inexpensive pre-machined and pre-coated enclosures, and the ease of accessing the entire world as your market via the internet, not to mention the ease with which one can access technical info about almost everything out there (and until the mid-'90s, I had to rely entirely on my Jack Darr book for amplifier schematics) have made it such that a "pedal company" can consist of one person turning them out from their dorm room. No one has to beg the bank for $20,000 to get started, unless they are planning something VERY big. But if this is going to be their primary revenue stream, those folks still have to cover their "human" overhead, in addition to production costs. So rent/mortgage, food, health insurance, phone/internet, car payments and insurance, apartment and business insurance, maybe child care, and all the materials required to both learn what they had to learn to start making pedals, and test their product before shipping/selling. As startups, their output can't be very large. So what they do is work backwards, taking into account what *revenue* they need to generate monthly to stay afloat (and that may mean only going _this_ much into debt rather than_ that_ much), and how many units they figure they can produce and move. The selling price is calculated not on the basis of what it costs to make one, but rather how much it costs them to live off of producing them. If the person needs to buy a better scope or DMM to make and test things well, THAT goes into the production overhead. If you have to buy books, become a paid member of some association, or travel to a trade show, THAT gets factored into the overall cost of being a pedal maker. I look up at all the thousands of pages of schematics, photocopied project or theory articles, and books, sitting on my shelves in binders, and that has to have cost me a couple thousand over the years, in photocopy costs alone.

A beginner may have some serious help of the type noted above (i.e., you don't have to etch and drill the boards yourself, or machine and powder-coat the boxes yourself), but will still be a one-person operation, doing order-processing, dealing with suppliers, website-development/maintenance, handling calls/inquiries/complaints/repairs from dealers/customers, in addition to the building, Until orders pick up enough to hire a second or additional person, production is limited. (That was precisely the position Bill Finnegan was it, and HE made a point of engaging in 20-30 minute conversations with prospective customers to see if the pedal was right for them, which ate into his build time, created the wait-time, and resulted in the inflated resale market to folks who didn't want to wait.)

The point is that, yes, there is nearly always going to be MUCH less in materials and even labour costs in any pedal than what it sells for, but parts & labour costs only become the primary factor in retail price once someone is employing a big-enough production staff, and moving a lot of product.

I'm glad that I have the skill to make myself pedals for a small fraction of their retail cost, and as a retiree the time to do so. I still have misgivings about spending $7 on a component to make myself a pedal that would likely sell for $300. But I don't begrudge the manufacturer for setting a $300 price-point, because I know how costly it was to get to that position and cover ALL of their costs.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

ironrob2018 said:


> As far as silicon transistors are concerned, the B-E junction is doped differently than the B-C junction. If you measure the B-E junction with a diode checker and compare it to the B-C junction it will always read slightly higher. I imagine germanium transistors are similar, but nearly no one uses those anymore and haven't for quite a while except of course fuzz pedal makers. Germanium has temperature coefficient issues. That's one reason they switched to silicon.
> 
> I expect someone to pipe up any second now and call me a bull shitter. Love this place


If it makes you feel any better, I have no idea what any of you are talking about so I believe you


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

traynor_garnet said:


> To answer the OP’s question: TGP. That’s why.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Brunz said:


> If it makes you feel any better, I have no idea what any of you are talking about so I believe you


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Nice illustration of what makes a transistor a transistor, but it does not convey anything about the asymmetry of doping that would make the emitter any different than the collector.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

mhammer said:


> Nice illustration of what makes a transistor a transistor, but it does not convey anything about the asymmetry of doping that would make the emitter any different than the collector.


Sorry, the drawing is not to scale...in practical diffused-junction transistors, the emitter pellet is somewhat smaller in size than the collector pellet.
Referenced from this book (I had posted the link to this book in another thread)


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

ironrob2018 said:


> Are you calling me a liar Sir?:


No, I'm calling you wrong (in your conclusions, the things you say are noit wrong, but irrelevant to the issue), pointing to the causality behind that being your tunnelvision of the situiation that ignores the critical factor - this is all on the used market. Like you missed the point entirely; nothing about engineering or product development is relevant.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Paul Running said:


> Sorry, the drawing is not to scale...in practical diffused-junction transistors, the emitter pellet is somewhat smaller in size than the collector pellet.
> Referenced from this book (I had posted the link to this book in another thread)


Thanks. Appreciate the clarification. Thumbs up.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Paul Running said:


> View attachment 405519


appreciate it... but still living on the dark side of the moon over here =)


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## Zebjo (Jun 9, 2021)

ironrob2018 said:


> Hi, for the record, I'm an electronics engineering technologist by trade. There is absolutely nothing in any guitar pedal that justifies a price point over, let's say $200 dollars. I'm allowing for profit here, just to be clear. We are taught to design for minimum distortion, preservation of signal integrity, minimum noise and so on. Nobody goes to school to learn how to f'up signals, no one. These distortion, overdrive pedals are nothing but bad amplifiers and are stumbled upon by accident and experimentation, at least for the most part. Digital implementations have taken some work, but, they lack that certain, " je ne sais pas quoi". Kempers are awesome but eventually you want the real thing. Listen. Get a Les Paul Standard, get a JCM 800, and a boss Super Overdrive. Learn to play and all will be good.


No, seriously?


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## Zebjo (Jun 9, 2021)

IMO, prices on the KTR are 100% hype. I have owned original Klon Centaurs, and KTR V1, plus a fair number of clones. In practice, the original Centaur is probably the best sounding choice, but I attribute it's success to choice of components and good construction. Surface mount components, as in the KTR just don't measure up in any version, clone, or home build - but they do get close. The "magical" clipping diodes that Bill Finnegan likes to mythologize are again, as far as I can tell, pure BS and hype. I have heard (seriously) a hundred different diode types used effectively in those circuits. I have used my Centaur on stage with full band in many gig situations, and I'm marginally fond of it, but it does not have a permanent place on my pedalboard, as I am always able to find things I like better for clean boost, and overdrive. I remember when Finnegan "interviewed" me prior to selling me an original Klon, I told him I was looking for a transparent boost, and he told me the only way to achieve that with his pedal, is to avoid using the Gain control, otherwise he admitted the circuit would not only start clipping your signal, but his circuit would add a very distinctive peak to the mids, while cutting certain low frequencies - and there is nothing special about the clipping, in fact he compared it to an MXR Distortion + in that conversation. Moreover, I like having at least one pedal that has a good buffer; Klon's buffer is just OK, and doesn't play nice with many other pedals. My conclusion, if you want a Klon sound, get a copy, Ceriatone and JHS stand out to my ears as being very close to the original. 
My disclaimer: although I have lots of experience with these pedals, it all comes down to personal taste, and different styles (super important), and individual ears. My opinions are just that, an individual take based on my likes/dislikes, etc. Hope you read in that spirit, and know that I'm "all ears" when reading other opinions about these things - I learn a ton from the community!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

My experience with Bill is that he is picky, but a straight-shooter and not prone to BS, whether for marketing or other purposes. So my view is that the "diode thing" is not _intended_ to be hype or BS, but has been turned into that by other people. My sense is that, since much of the design of the Centaur revolves around the balance of several different "versions" of the signal - one of which is somewhat clipped by the diodes - achieving that desired balance at designated control settings involves the diodes permitting a specific output level for that "version" of the signal. It is certainly _attainable_ if one either makes a point of measuring every diode to make sure it has the desired forward voltage (and germanium diodes vary a fair amount in my experience), OR tweaks the values of several other components to get the same result. But my guess is that Bill prefers to have a drop-in solution by using components whose properies are known quantities and require no further adaptation. It's not a character flaw of any kind, just one particular professional attitude. I don't know what other revenue streams he might have, but as pedals go, the Centaur (and now KTR) is his ONLY pedal product, his entire "catalog", if you will, and he wants it to be consistent.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Well if anyone is tempted, there’s one for sale in Ottawa that you can go try…









Kijiji - Buy, Sell & Save with Canada's #1 Local Classifieds


Visit Kijiji Classifieds to buy, sell, or trade almost anything! New and used items, cars, real estate, jobs, services, vacation rentals and more virtually anywhere.




www.kijiji.ca


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

2manyGuitars said:


> Well if anyone is tempted, there’s one for sale in Ottawa that you can go try…
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am very tempted to sell mine if someone will buy it at this price. LOL


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Chito said:


> I am very tempted to sell mine if someone will buy it at this price. LOL


Don’t know if they actually fetch $2k but at that price, you’re selling it as a collectible so you should at least have the box FFS.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

2manyGuitars said:


> Don’t know if they actually fetch $2k but at that price, you’re selling it as a collectible so you should at least have the box FFS.


I don't think I have the box so $1950 LOL


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

The only limit to the price for ANY item or service is determined by how badly someone wants one, how much they are willing to pay and of course, how many are available.

All the righteous indignation in the world won't change that.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Years back, at what was probably the peak of his career, I read a feature article on "shock" comedian Andrew "Dice" Clay in _Rolling Stone_. The writer travelled with Clay, attending several of his shows. At one show, an audience member heckled Clay, loudly expressing disgust at the show's seriously misogynist content. Clay responded to the fellow "Hey, *I* don't write these jokes, YOU do!", gesturing to the audience.

It's the same thing with the resale prices of the glamour/mojo pedals. Someone pays a stupid price, which tells someone else that this is what they could sell theirs for. And like that old shampoo commercial, they tell two friends, and _they_ tell two friends, and so on. Buyers set the price, not vendors.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

2manyGuitars said:


> Don’t know if they actually fetch $2k but at that price, you’re selling it as a collectible so you should at least have the box FFS.


The funny thing is the boxes for them are just a nondescript, white cardboard box, lol.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Okay Player said:


> The funny thing is the boxes for them are just a nondescript, white cardboard box, lol.


Now that you've mentioned it. I think I have it, with the piece of paper describing the pedal.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Chito said:


> Now that you've mentioned it. I think I have it, with the piece of paper describing the pedal.


I’m still only paying you $1950


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

2manyGuitars said:


> I’m still only paying you $1950



I'll give you $1950 for the box and $50 for the Klon.


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## ABCarlson (Jan 11, 2021)

Out of curiosity, are there any Canadian shops that are Klon dealers? I know many shops have their own "waiting lists" for their next shipments of KTRs.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Not sure, but with the latest axefx update I get a free one


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Budda said:


> Not sure, but with the latest axefx update I get a free one


Can I just say how much I love that you shamelessly plug that thing as often as you possibly can and with such vigor that you almost have me convinced that I need to get my hands on one!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Mark Brown said:


> Can I just say how much I love that you shamelessly plug that thing as often as you possibly can and with such vigor that you almost have me convinced that I need to get my hands on one!


to date its the best piece of equipment I’ve bought.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Budda said:


> to date its the best piece of equipment I’ve bought.


I would like to make sure so as there is no confusion, I was being genuine. No sarcasm intended. I am close to wanting one


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## spacebard (Aug 1, 2009)

ABCarlson said:


> Out of curiosity, are there any Canadian shops that are Klon dealers? I know many shops have their own "waiting lists" for their next shipments of KTRs.


Cosmomusic.ca 

guitareffectscanada.com


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## juone95 (9 mo ago)

Honestly, I think modern day pedals can produce the same type of effect as the Klon.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

spacebard said:


> Cosmomusic.ca
> 
> guitareffectscanada.com


I don't see it listed on the Cosmo site. I do see it listed on guitareffectscanada.com, but I've been on their notification list for about 7 months so I'm not holding my breath.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

I got a notification from Humbucker music a while ago. They had them in stock for about 30 seconds. They do show up randomly. Why they fetch $1000 is beyond comprehension but I'm sure that's why they sell out so quickly.


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

Mark Brown said:


> I would like to make sure so as there is no confusion, I was being genuine. No sarcasm intended. I am close to wanting one


As proud owner of a Helix I agree with @Budda. Plus they are cheaper than a Klon KTR


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Derek_T said:


> As proud owner of a Helix I agree with @Budda. Plus they are cheaper than a Klon KTR


It's funny. I stopped by a pawn shop last weekend to see what pedals they had. 

No standalone pedals, but plenty of multi-effects. I had a bit of a chuckle.


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

Okay Player said:


> It's funny. I stopped by a pawn shop last weekend to see what pedals they had.
> 
> No standalone pedals, but plenty of multi-effects. I had a bit of a chuckle.


Not all multi-effects were created equal. Axe Fx, Helix, Kemper, Quad... are high end modellers more than mere multi-effects.

I totally understand that some people preferer a good old pedals or amp to a modeler, but modelers came a long way and professional musician are using them today as a reliable alternative to amp....whatever floats your boat.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Derek_T said:


> Not all multi-effects were created equal. Axe Fx, Helix, Kemper, Quad... are high end modellers more than mere multi-effects.
> 
> I totally understand that some people preferer a good old pedals or amp to a modeler, but modelers came a long way and professional musician are using them today as a reliable alternative to amp....whatever floats your boat.


I want to he very clear. If it helps people want to play guitar, and they dig the tone, they absolutely should use whatever.

That being said, "This isn't the same as the old stuff." has always been the marketing material of multi-effects. I can't remember what the alternative was, but just recently I was listening to a podcast with some producer fella who was explaining "Here's why Kemper's are inferior to this new thing."


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Okay Player said:


> It's funny. I stopped by a pawn shop last weekend to see what pedals they had.
> 
> No standalone pedals, but plenty of multi-effects. I had a bit of a chuckle.


Kijiji has ads for a lot of things that people feel forced to sell to make ends meet. Sometimes they even say so, and it makes me wonder "Why the heck did you spend so much on gear, when you were living paycheck to paycheck?".

So, the presence of multiFX in the pawn shop could be because:
a) desperate people had to forfeit things they had spent too much on,
b) that pawn shop tends to reject single pedals, but is willing to take on pricier gear,
c) all the individual pedals were already bought by other customers, leaving ONLY the multi-FX they weren't interested in,
or some other reason. One can certainly draw inferences from the sort of things (and volume of them) found in pawn shops, but these days it's a bit of a crap shoot. And sometimes a chuckle as well.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

juone95 said:


> Honestly, I think modern day pedals can produce the same type of effect as the Klon.


The Klon Centaur was revolutionary in its day as the first pedal deliberately designed and intended to extract optimum amplifier overdrive from the amp itself, and not simply mimic characteristics of an overdriven amp, no matter what you plugged it into.

Bill protected his IP, valiantly, but ultimately two things happened. First, some folks degooped a board or two and posted the schematic so that people could make their own. Second, the _principle_ underlying the Klon became more widely appreciated, and others came up with their own way to accomplish much the same thing.

Once upon a time, you could only get "Montreal bagels" in Montreal, and nowhere else. Over time, people studied what made Montreal bagels so different, learned how to replicate, and bagels of comparable quality started popping up in other cities. Even Halifax-Dartmouth has real Montreal bagels, made by a guy who worked in the Montreal place for 18 years and broke out on his own.

Eventually, every good idea gets copied or even improved on.


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

ironrob2018 said:


> Hi, for the record, I'm an electronics engineering technologist by trade. There is absolutely nothing in any guitar pedal that justifies a price point over, let's say $200 dollars. I'm allowing for profit here, just to be clear. We are taught to design for minimum distortion, preservation of signal integrity, minimum noise and so on. Nobody goes to school to learn how to f'up signals, no one. These distortion, overdrive pedals are nothing but bad amplifiers and are stumbled upon by accident and experimentation, at least for the most part. Digital implementations have taken some work, but, they lack that certain, " je ne sais pas quoi". Kempers are awesome but eventually you want the real thing. Listen. Get a Les Paul Standard, get a JCM 800, and a boss Super Overdrive. Learn to play and all will be good.


I had people thinking I had tube amps, a Helix or what ever new toy .... they were shocked that I was using some old Digitech RP-1, RP-12 , a Digitech 2112 SGS , feeding two VHT Valvulators and finally into two Crate Power Blocks.

If you know what your doing and know what you want , you can sound good with any equipment ....old or new gear , expensive or inexpensive !!!! .


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

Not to be mean spirited, lots of times tone gurus will spin things so much that particular gear prices go thru the roof .... some times it's just hype.
Then when you buy the "Shangri-la pedal " .... it's really not up to snuff .... kind of like some Tube Screamers .


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## munrodeo (Feb 17, 2021)

Picked up a Ryra Klone myself… while I don’t have the most refined ears, been really happy with it as an affordable alternative.


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