# Neck joint on a Norman B20 Folk - advice?



## Greg Ellis

Is anyone familiar with the neck joint on the Norman B20 Folk?

I just picked up a used one (maybe 10 yrs old). It's a solid spruce top with cherry laminate back and sides.

It's been played quite a lot, and shows it's age, but it seems like a promising guitar if I can just get the action under control. It's currently a bit more than 1/8" at the 12th fret, and there's not much room to lower the bridge saddle. It looks like someone has tried that already, at some point.

Inspecting the neck joint from the outside, I can see a bit of gap in some places. 

Feeling up inside the guitar, there seems to be a paper cover over the neck joint, and under the paper I can feel what I think might be nuts. If I'm not mistaken, the nuts might actually be loose.

Does Norman bolt-on their acoustic necks? 

Would those bolts actually loosen up over time?

I don't know that much about acoustics - I thought most necks were set with glue.

Is there any reason I shouldn't break that paper cover and see what's going on underneath?

I think I need to lubricate the truss rod somehow, too. It seems it might be a dual action type (?), accessed via an allen key just inside the guitar body, under the body end of the fretboard. It's remarkably stiff, and I'm nervous to apply too much torque. 

Would removing the neck from the body give me better access to the threaded portion of the truss rod? Any reason not to do that?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

I can grab some pics if that would help.


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## Greg Ellis

I confirmed the age with a serial # lookup - it's a '99, so 11 years old now.


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## fraser

yup- under the sticker is a bolt that holds the neck in place. there shouldnt be any glue in the joint.
also yes, itll be a dual action truss rod.
if youve got gaps, try to tighten the neck up a bit- maybe pulling it back snug will improve your action.
if not, its simple to retaper the heel for a better neck angle.
gotta love the godin neck joint.
if you fear harming the truss rod, then yes, maybe itll be easier to work with if the neck is off.
the fretboard extension however, is glued to the top- youll need to seperate this.
you can loosen the bolt, leave the fretboard extension attached, and carefully puit sandpaper between the body and neck joint- then you put a little back force on the neck, and draw the sandpaper out-
this removes a bit of material at the heel- youll have to do it a bunch of times, but its a good way to improve the action on this guitar with as little work as possible.


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## Greg Ellis

Well, I took a shot at it today. The bolts were so loose I could turn them with my fingers. I loosened the strings and tightened them up with a ratchet. It feels more solid now, and doesn't "creak" any more, but no joy on the action. It's still about 1/8" at the 12th. 

I guess I'll have to get into that sandpaper idea when I find a day where I've got a bit more time to play around.


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## fraser

when you do have time, give a look here-
Bolt-on Neck Joint for Acoustic Instruments
at the bottom of the page is a small section regarding neck resetting with this type of joint.
this picture is worth many paragraphs...


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## Greg Ellis

I looks simple enough.

I'm not sure I understand how to control the amount of wood that's coming off, though.

Or how to ensure that I'm taking more off at the base of the heel vs. up near the fretboard.

I guess the answer is to work very slowly, removing a tiny bit at a time, and re-check the action over and until it's good?

I'm guessing it wouldn't make a lot of sense to try this with strings on. Is there a good way to check progress while the strings are off?

Something like this maybe?


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## fraser

> I guess the answer is to work very slowly, removing a tiny bit at a time, and re-check the action over and until it's good?


yup exactly. if you apply slight back pressure to the neck, while slipping the sandpaper out, it will tend to take material away in just the right place, more towards the heel. and a little goes a long way- wont take long to see results. i dont use a heavy paper for this- something like a 120 grit maybe.



> Something like this maybe?


yes, again exactly- thats the way i do it. 
although realistically, you could do this with the strings on, under just enough tension to keep them straight. then they could act as your straight edge-


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## Greg Ellis

Well, I finally got started.

Here's my patient, Norman:










Action is a bit more than 1/8" - too high for comfort. 










Here you can see the bolts that hold the neck on - pretty cool design if you ask me:










A straight edge rested on the frets hits the bridge very low. You can see that the saddle is fairly low already - likely dropped when a previous owner installed a Fishman system:










Bolts removed and ready to start:










I started with 150 grit. Being cautious, I supposed. I've never tried anything like this before. 150 grit turned out to be WAY too slow - I switched to a 100 grit garnet paper later:










Progress is very slow - sand, sand, sand, then reassemble, tune up to pitch, let it settle a bit, and re-check:










Take it apart again, sand some more, and some more. I ended the day, about 3 hours spent, like this:










The smallest marks are 16ths, so I'm down to about 3/32" now, from a starting point that was a bit more than 4/32". I'm not really sure what my target should be (other than "whatever feels right") - what is a typical action on a well setup acoustic? 

I think I'll play it like this for a while, and see if it's good enough or needs more work.

Interesting adventure. I never in a million years thought that I would be doing work like this on an acoustic guitar.


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## fraser

hey, nice work- great in progress pics too, nicely done.
3/32nds is about standard factory height, and what i aim for myself.
if you go a little more, youll be able to use a taller saddle and increase the break angle of the strings.
but the current saddle doesnt look that bad- 
maybe at this point you could set it up with the taller saddle- then proceed with any further heel shaving.
that godin neck joint is the best. takes 90% of the hassle of a neck reset out of the equation.


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## Alain Moisan

Just a little complement of information about neck resets on Godin guitars.

Unfortunately, since about 5 years ago (or so...), Godin changed their neck attachment method. In addition to screws, a glued in piece of wood about 6" long joints the neck to the body, making the neck 'unresetable'. 

For a view of what I'm talking about, here is a video of the Godin methods where you can clearly see what I'm talking about. It's in french, but the images speak for themsleves. (Advance the video to 6m40s).

GUITARE - Guitares Godin / Godiin guitars - reportage vido de l'usine de Princeville - LA GUITARE . COM


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## Greg Ellis

It looks like they're doing both styles. Just a bit later in the video (~8:00) they show a neck being attached without that extra bit.


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## Alain Moisan

Greg Ellis said:


> It looks like they're doing both styles. Just a bit later in the video (~8:00) they show a neck being attached without that extra bit.


Yes, I know. But they are definitely doing it on Normans since I had one last years for refinishing the neck and I noticed the modification while attempting to remove the neck. Needless to say I decided to refinish the neck still attached to the body!


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## mrmatt1972

Alain Moisan said:


> Unfortunately, since about 5 years ago (or so...), Godin changed their neck attachment method. In addition to screws, a glued in piece of wood about 6" long joints the neck to the body, making the neck 'unresetable'.


Is this true of the SImon and Patrick models too?


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## Alain Moisan

I believe so but I'm not sure. I think I will email Godin to have more info.

I'll let you know.


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## Alain Moisan

Ok, I got the answer back from Godin.

The neck joint shown in the video I posted is used on ALL Godin models past 2005 (Seagull, Norman, Simon & Patrick, Art & Lutherie). That means on all models with 8 digits serial number starting with 06, 07 and 08, as well as 12 digits serial numbers.


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