# Any ProCo Rat Aficionados?



## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

What do you guys think of these dirt boxes?

I've own many in the past with my favourite being a 1981 big box. I've also had the original 1985 Whiteface for a couple of months.

I've had pricey clones (Jam Rattler), or the Reissues (Whiteface), but they never seemed to compare to the 1981. I had a deucetone Rat sent to keeley for the works (to one side), and still not comparable.

The sad thing is that they are all long gone and this was well before I knew I was a Marshall guy - I've never played a rat through a Marshall (ouch - typing that actually hurt)

What are your experiences?

Pedal Builders: How difficult would it be to source NOS and get a NOS 1981 pedal together? Originals are way too expensive now. 

(if you can read between the lines, I guess this might also be a WTB post, haha)


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

I think that's the sound of Kill 'em All. 
I have a couple of emulations plugins that I would love to compare to the real one.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

I love the Rat!
Mine is a Whiteface RI I love it more in my yba-1 modded to plexi specs.

Playing riffs with palm mute is tasty wit a rat!

Sorry, I can't help you more than that!


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## Cups (Jan 5, 2010)

I built a clone. Didn't source NOS parts but love it anyway. Could have used a more useful tone stack, but the gain was just right. Has a clipping switch for LED none and silicone. It's a good pedal.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I have a couple of clones I made. Both use an LM308 chip, but apart from that I have no idea how they compare to the originals. Nice sounding pedals, though.

Rats are an interesting case of where the weaknesses of the chip are what provides its desirable qualities. The LM308 has limited open-loop gain In tandem with the compensating cap it can't handle high gain at higher frequencies. In spite of this, the max gain above 1.5khz is set in the thousands, resulting in an odd kind of background oscillation.

I don't know if there is any consistent sonic difference or signature to the earliest ones compared to subsequent issues. There are certainly a lot of opportunities for small tolerance differences in component values to have an audible impact. So when somebody does a Youtube shootout, and you hear differences, I don't know if that is a design change or the result of 5% variation in resistor and/or cap values.


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## Arcane (Oct 14, 2012)

I love RATs! You can get a lot of mileage for different sounds with the RAT circuit - overdive, distortion and even a little fuzz. I like my '86 Black Face but love my '79 Big Box.

I agree with Mark here. The LM308s overloading makes "the" RAT sound. I build a fair amount of these and I always use the LM308.


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## Brett Pearson (Apr 26, 2016)

I bought a rat in 1985 and still have it. I was drawn to the fat raw tone and still love it today. Its probably the longest owned piece of gear that I have.


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## ga20t (Jul 22, 2010)

I went through a handful of modded/boutique versions and "settled" on the BYOC Lil Mouse clone. I love it. I use them as overdrive-light distortion only and this one's perfect. Much more useable overdrive range than some modern interpretations. My favourite overdrive.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

When I was a teenager a teenager in the pre-internet days, I always read about people using Rats, but I never heard one or even saw one. Later on when I was on my twenties I just had to have one, so I got one.....

I still have it, but it doesn't sound good at all to me. It sounds like a Tube Screamer, but more harsh.

I guess this is a case of the old ones really do sound better.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

I heard and read a lot about the Rat over the years but I never thought of even buying one. Recently, while on the lookout for a distortion pedal, I decided to get one. Lo and behold, now I'm wondering why I've never tried one before. It's been on my pedal board since then.


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## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

Love my big box Rat! It's the only pedal that sounds good with every single amp I play it thru and virtually every guitar/pickup configuration. That, and as Arcane mentioned - you can use it as an overdrive, distortion, fuzz AND even treble boost through judicious use of the uber-versatile tone/filter control.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Did I get a bad one? Mine seriously doesn't sound that great. 

I think mine might be one of the last ones made in the US.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

butterknucket said:


> Did I get a bad one? Mine seriously doesn't sound that great.
> 
> I think mine might be one of the last ones made in the US.


Not sure where you live, but I'll grab it and let you know 

I haven't really played anything newer than a stock deucetone, and it was kinda crappy (so I had keeley mod it). Does yours have the LM308 chip in it? That could be all the difference.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

adcandour said:


> Not sure where you live, but I'll grab it and let you know
> 
> I haven't really played anything newer than a stock deucetone, and it was kinda crappy (so I had keeley mod it). Does yours have the LM308 chip in it? That could be all the difference.


I don't know, but I"ll have a look. 

I'm going to plug it in tonight and have a listen.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

butterknucket said:


> I don't know, but I"ll have a look.
> 
> I'm going to plug it in tonight and have a listen.


Yeah, take a peek inside. You can also get a date off the pot numbers inside.

You might be able to track down a chip and have it swapped.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

adcandour said:


> Yeah, take a peek inside. You can also get a date off the pot numbers inside.
> 
> You might be able to track down a chip and have it swapped.


I've never had a pedal modded, but it's always something I've been open to. 

Have you ever modded a Blues Driver?


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

butterknucket said:


> I've never had a pedal modded, but it's always something I've been open to.
> 
> Have you ever modded a Blues Driver?


No, but I have one. And now that I know I live in your city, we can a/b them. It's one of my 'keepers' - currently on my son's board though.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

adcandour said:


> No, but I have one. And now that I know I live in your city, we can a/b them. It's one of my 'keepers' - currently on my son's board though.


I have one too, but Boss drive pedals sound harsh to me. 

I've recently rediscovered my AC Booster and I'm really enjoying it.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

butterknucket said:


> I have one too, but Boss drive pedals sound harsh to me.
> 
> I've recently rediscovered my AC Booster and I'm really enjoying it.


I've been dying to try one of those as well. I used to have an RC Booster (heavily recommended by Lance Romance). It was great for thickening tone, but I wish it had a bit more hair.

What amp are you playing through?


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

adcandour said:


> I've been dying to try one of those as well. I used to have an RC Booster (heavily recommended by Lance Romance). It was great for thickening tone, but I wish it had a bit more hair.
> 
> What amp are you playing through?


The AC Booster is GREAT for getting that not quite clean, but not overly distorted sound that somehow just sounds right. It doesn't really sound like a pedal either, it just sounds like a nice amp. 

I have an old Fender.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Ok, so mine has an OP07DP in it, whatever that means.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

adcandour said:


> Pedal Builders: How difficult would it be to source NOS and get a NOS 1981 pedal together? Originals are way too expensive now.


Easy as pie. There are any number of PCBs available from multiple reputable sources (I have a Mad Bean one in the build queue) as well as a multitude of verified perf or veroboard layouts. LM308s are still available (even the neato Fairchild metal can version: IC ua308HC but the dip package version is still available though I don't think it's in production anymore either). IMHO NOS resistors and caps are not worth the trouble here - but if you like things looser/dirtier, you could use carbon vs metal film resistors as is standard today (but not back then) - you don't need vintage ones.



butterknucket said:


> Ok, so mine has an OP07DP in it, whatever that means.


That's the Texas Instruments replacement op amp for the DIP-8 version of the LM308 which they discontinued.

Rat fans say it don't clip the same. I haven't compared the two.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Update:

All this talk and I jumped all over the '89 rat posted in the for sale section. It was in Toronto, so I was able to get a great price if I picked it up.

Funny story - The forumite I bought the rat from yesterday is the same guy I sold my vintage rat to in 2012 (in a craigslist deal). He happened to recognize me. Super nice guy.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Ahaha, small world it is!


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Ti-Ron said:


> Ahaha, small world it is!


What's even funnier is that when we first met, he asked me if I had ever been on TGP. I replied, "what's a TGP?" Essentially, if it wasn't for him, I wouldn't know any of you and my gear would be a lot shittier.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Would it though? 

My only experience with the rat is when our producer would throw it on various parts on the new record. I don't remember where it was used, just that it was used sometimes.

It gets angry fast haha.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Budda said:


> Would it though?
> 
> My only experience with the rat is when our producer would throw it on various parts on the new record. I don't remember where it was used, just that it was used sometimes.
> 
> It gets angry fast haha.


Definitely. No way I'd a found Brian Monty, Arcane Analog, or have Sanford Magnetics on my radar. My old habit included 2 daily surfs through CL and Kijiji. Then I would research any gear that I had never heard of. It was a slow process.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Try it as a mic pre (with a cheap hi to lo Z converter in front of it - the things that look like a 1/4" to XLR adapter but have a little 1:4 transformer inside).


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Easy as pie. There are any number of PCBs available from multiple reputable sources (I have a Mad Bean one in the build queue) as well as a multitude of verified perf or veroboard layouts. LM308s are still available (even the neato Fairchild metal can version: IC ua308HC but the dip package version is still available though I don't think it's in production anymore either). IMHO NOS resistors and caps are not worth the trouble here - but if you like things looser/dirtier, you could use carbon vs metal film resistors as is standard today (but not back then) - you don't need vintage ones.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You'll want to look at this thread: Rat op-amps.


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

Cmatmods make a nice Rat inspired pedal. Black Plague/Ratified has a three way toggle to give you some more options.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

mhammer said:


> You'll want to look at this thread: Rat op-amps.


Interesteng - hadn't seen that thread before. I already have a dip 8 one in the parts bin, but I always socket op amps so I can try switching it out later. Any way the Rat is like 3rd in line at best in the build queue. Currently finishing off a simple rumble and noise filter, then on to a vowelizer.


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