# performing for free - is it morally/ethically wrong?



## david henman

...many of us are in a catch 22.

until and unless we build our brand, and create a demand for our own/original music, there is no one who is going to pay us to perform.
so, we perform for free, or for chump change, because it affords us an opportunity to develop and audience and hopefully/ultimately, to build our brand.
we can't legitimately blame club owners, although many of us do anyway. it is not their responsibility to ensure that we have viable careers. and, the fact is, they face a similar catch 22.
not to mention that the small amount that we might pick up in the form of honorariums or passing the hat is of very little use to us, beyond paying for gas. and a hundred bucks between five guys doesn't even manage that.
it certainly does nothing to advance our careers.

(let me qualify this: i am speaking solely of original music. playing covers for free makes no sense whatsoever - what would be the point?)

however, many musicians claim that, by offering to perform for free, we are lowering the bar (as if it could get any lower) and doing a disservice to other musicians.


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## GuitarsCanada

A tough question. Even tougher answer


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## gtrguy

GONE


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## hummingway

It's morally wrong for some places not to pay us. I've always played some non-paying gigs. These are places that are nice to play and don't benefit enough by your presence, coffee houses in the evening being the best example. I'm playing Sunday night at a place that is giving me a percentage of the till. It's been a long time since I've played a gig like that but it used to be common to get a guarantee plus a cut in bars, but this is a restaurant. It seems a fair approach for some venues.

Musicians need to do what they can to remind people that music is important but you also have get out and be seen. It's a catch-22 indeed. I don't think anyone should play a bar for free but they sometimes want to pay so little that it's the same thing. Have the economics of bars gotten to the point where they can't afford live music?


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## kat_

I think playing for free can be divided into two different situations - playing where no one is making money from the performance and playing where someone else is making money but not the band. I have no problem at all with the first situation but will do everything I can to avoid the second one. I am happy to play charity fundraisers and not get paid. My current band and my former band are planning on renting a community hall and organising our own gig. There's a strong chance that we'll just break even and we're all totally fine with that. I won't play a bar for free though, beyond just a jam or open mic night.

Last week on CBC radio they were talking about musicians not being paid at the London Olympics. Apparently musicians there are supposed to be happy to play for the exposure. The radio host commented that the olympic committee probably didn't try that line on their security contractors or catering staff.


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## david henman

hummingway said:


> Have the economics of bars gotten to the point where they can't afford live music?


...thanks to no-smoking laws, high prices and a stumbling economy, not to mention the fact that music has been devalued because people feel they no longer obligated to pay for it, bar owners are struggling. they have run out of ideas. people are not going out to bars to see live music anymore. that is a fact. we can point the finger at bar owners all day, but what can you do?

unless/until we reach the point where, for example, we can draw our own crowd when we perform at a bar or night club, where would an owner find the money to pay us, on a regualr basis?


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## david henman

kat_ said:


> I think playing for free can be divided into two different situations - playing where no one is making money from the performance and playing where someone else is making money but not the band.


...what would be an example of the latter?


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## david henman

hummingway said:


> It's morally wrong for some places not to pay us.


...for example?


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## blam

david henman said:


> however, many musicians claim that, by offering to perform for free, we are lowering the bar (as if it could get any lower) and doing a disservice to other musicians.


having been in the photography industry this was a huge grey area....especially in an age where everyone with a DSLR thinks they are a professional. Many charge very little to do work or offer free work so lots of consumers get the idea "why pay $4000 for a wedding, when this guy will do it for a $500." This is the reason I left the industry. I didn't want to deal with it. as well, how do you get work with no portfolio, and how do you get a portfolio with no work etc... a HUGE portion of your success boils down to who you know and what connections you have. If you're a great photographer, but you're kind of a loner, regardless of how amicable you are you might not get as much work as a mediocre photographer that knows everyone. "oh, I know a guy that does photography, here is his info" type deal.

I don't know the answer to your question. I don't think anyone should work for free. But at the same time, I might not want to hire a bunch of nobodies to play at my establishment. having said that since I have been in the role of the photographer, I would offer compensation if a band wanted to play my establishment. if I didn't like them, I'd not invite them back to play.


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## Big_Daddy

david henman said:


> ...many of us are in a catch 22.
> 
> until and unless we build our brand, and create a demand for our own/original music, there is no one who is going to pay us to perform.
> so, we perform for free, or for chump change, because it affords us an opportunity to develop and audience and hopefully/ultimately, to build our brand.
> we can't legitimately blame club owners, although many of us do anyway. it is not their responsibility to ensure that we have viable careers. and, the fact is, they face a similar catch 22.
> not to mention that the small amount that we might pick up in the form of honorariums or passing the hat is of very little use to us, beyond paying for gas. and a hundred bucks between five guys doesn't even manage that.
> it certainly does nothing to advance our careers.
> 
> *(let me qualify this: i am speaking solely of original music. playing covers for free makes no sense whatsoever - what would be the point?)
> *
> however, many musicians claim that, by offering to perform for free, we are lowering the bar (as if it could get any lower) and doing a disservice to other musicians.


David,

I have been in a 5-piece cover band for a year now and over 80% of our gigs have been "freebies". We play on average once a month. Our circumstance is a bit different though...all of us have full-time jobs (except me, being retired) and we are all in it for fun. All of our unpaid gigs have been benefits to raise money for local charities or parties at friends' homes. In reality we have not taken any work away from "professional" musicians as these events weren't paying gigs anyway. However, the 3 paying gigs we have done have all resulted from the charity gigs we did. Two of the charity events were at local bars and the owner's came up after the first set and booked us and another resulted in a wedding gig. 

So, there _can_ be a very good reason (or reasons) for cover bands to play freebies.


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## pattste

kat_ said:


> I think playing for free can be divided into two different situations - playing where no one is making money from the performance and playing where someone else is making money but not the band. I have no problem at all with the first situation but will do everything I can to avoid the second one. I am happy to play charity fundraisers and not get paid. My current band and my former band are planning on renting a community hall and organising our own gig. There's a strong chance that we'll just break even and we're all totally fine with that. I won't play a bar for free though, beyond just a jam or open mic night.


I agree totally. Producing your own show is the way to go if you want to get the exposure and not get taken advantage of.



kat_ said:


> Last week on CBC radio they were talking about musicians not being paid at the London Olympics. Apparently musicians there are supposed to be happy to play for the exposure. The radio host commented that the olympic committee probably didn't try that line on their security contractors or catering staff.


That's right. I hear all the time about bands playing weddings, wedding anniversary parties and corporate gigs on the cheap or free under the premise (or promise) that there will be important people there or whatever. Meanwhile the flower gal and the DJ drive home with the thousand dollar checks. Unless you're playing an industry showcase attended by reps from Universal, Sony, etc. there's no real exposure to be had from playing a free gig.


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## 4345567

__________


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## allthumbs56

As a charter member of a pretty successful band yourself David, I'm sure you may have more insight to this question than most of us. How'd ya do it in 69'?


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## hummingway

david henman said:


> ...for example?


There are establishments that are making money off the music, that expect the bands to do all the heavy lifting of the promotion of events and then get paid from the door without a guarantee. There are undoubtedly are bars that aren't making money but there are many that are packing in the patrons. They have to be making money. Some of them have built a reputation on regular entertainment that they "showcase".

I was living in LA in the 80's when the "pay to play" phenomena was just getting going. The venues were taking advantage of what the record companies, agents and management had started. Record companies would record a band and launch them by buying all the tickets for a venue and then giving them to those they felt should be there. Since the venues were assured their money they began only booking bands willing to guarantee them the money. All effort was in the hand of the bands people, no problem when RCA is behind you but the beginning of the end for what had been a vibrant LA music scene. Translate that to somewhere where there is no industry money and you get the bands that will play for free doing the showcases and the word professional becoming no longer applicable. In Victoria I've noticed that the "pros" spend most of their time working cruise ships.


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## woodnoize

thx for the LA article. essential read.
to answer the main question, usually deal with it on a case by case basis. 
if we ever feel taken advantage of, we just never play there again & spread the word. their future loss.
every1 has bills to pay. both sides need to be able to see that to survive.


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## Jim DaddyO

I would have to perform for free, no one would pay to hear me....lol


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## cbg1

if it is your song, you set the bar for when,where and for how much. it is unfortunate that most of the performing chances seem to be well intentioned fund raising situations.
recording of music eliminated the need for listeners to be where the performer was, and for a while made money for the performer and a host of others.
the internet age now makes it possible for the performer to connect with the listeners with out the need for the "host of others"

interesting to me, i was about to suggest 'bad side of the moon' as a tune for the campfire song discussion. when checked i was suprised to learn it was not an original tune. 'on record' was one of my favorite lps.


cheers
ets


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## david henman

allthumbs56 said:


> As a charter member of a pretty successful band yourself David, I'm sure you may have more insight to this question than most of us. How'd ya do it in 69'?



back then, music had real value. people had no compunction about paying for it, whether in the form of recordings, or to see live performances.
but, we never played bars. that is where "old people" went...LOL!
high schools, church basements, firehalls, community centres, yacht clubs - all had built-in budgets for live entertainment.
still, in nova scotia, we only played top 40. any attempt at performing original music was met with "hey, buddy, play something we know, eh!"
and it was around this time that DJs entered the picture.
so, we moved to montreal.
quebec audiences were amazing!
they didn't care what you played, as long as you put your heart and soul into it!
a band could easily make a living playing high schools, colleges, arenas, hockey rinks, festivals.
but this, too, was being eroded by the coming of....the dj!!!!
cue scary music...
it was around this time that performing in bars became a viable option.
bar owners had it easy - stick an open sign on the front door and customers showed up, eager to drink, smoke, socialize, pick up a companion for the evening, and dance or listen to live music although, granted, you were still limited to playing covers unless, like goddo or max webster, you could ``draw``.
then came the no-smoking laws...
fast-forward to this conversation...


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## Guitar101

I'm starting to wonder if it's what you play that matters. I recently played, along with most of the gigging musicians from this area, at a benefit dance for a fellow musician. These bands were the best bands around and have been playing for years. Approx 300 people in attendance. There was a country band, a few country rock bands and a few blues bands. Oh ya, one 50's/60's band. One after the other, the bands got up and performed 4 or 5 songs. It wasn't until the 50's/60's band got up that the people got up and danced and pretty well packed the floor. When they finished, a couple of the gigging blue's bands got up and again, the dance floor emptied. I know we can't all start playing 50's/60's stuff but is it possible that this is what the people want these days?

As for the original post *performing for free - is it morally/ethically wrong? . . . . *If the establishment does not want to share the wealth so to speak. I personally would not perform for free. Like others have said before me, benefits dances to help families in distress is always a good reason to share our musical talents . . . .


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## GTmaker

allthumbs56 said:


> As a charter member of a pretty successful band yourself David, I'm sure you may have more insight to this question than most of us. How'd ya do it in 69'?


 Because you mentioned '69 ( thats when I started) i'll give it a shot at answering.

We where actualy a 5 piece band doing basement parties and lots of contests ( just sign up and everyone got to play).
LEad singer quits and lead guitarist marries my sister and goes off to become an accountant.
Thats when I get the call to play upstars at the Diplomat Tavern ( 401 and Dufferin)..long story so I wont get into it. .

OK this is the important stuff.
MOnday to Saturday.....9 PM to 1 AM.... 4 /45 minute sets. At first , our last set was a repeat of our best songs cause thats all we had.

With no lead guitar and NO lead singer basicaly we sucked....managed to get thru the first 2 weeks....learned some more songs and by the end af our second month, we had lineups starting Thursday night.
Can you please imagine any band these days playing 4 sets a night 6 nights a week for 2 months. There is no way in hell you wont get better...and I mean a lot better.
After 4 months at the Diplomat, we moved ( actusly the owner approached us and doubled our pay if we moved to his club) to the Oakdale tavern.
It was here that an agent from the Bud Matton agency found us...signed us up for an exclusive and I ended up playing the next 15 years Newfounland to Vancouver and south to Florida ( six days a week).

Thats basicaly how I did it BUT I have to say that every bar in every town had live entertainment....It was not uncommon on a Saturday afternoon to catch 3 or 4 other bands doing matinees along the same street you where playing at.
BArs never had cover charge...they allways had great stages for bands...and best of all they where expected to have live entertainment.

The end of my line was started by Disco....no only did I mentaly have enough of traveling but I noticed that as more and more large clubs turned into Discos and we had to travel further and further between jobs.

Anyways...thanks for letting me vent a little ....I just finished reading that letter to the LA club owners and I am amazed how universal the Live music problem is. Having seen the results myself, I can't beleive that any club these days offering good quality live entertainment on a regular basis cant make a go of it. I keep thinking of the great advantage they would had over those clubs that dont offer the same entertainment value.
I know I'm probably missing something , but I just dont know the current music scene so I'll just have to rely on things like the LA club letter.


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## GuitarsCanada

Not that it is a major contributor to this conversation but weddings with live bands are pretty much extinct now as well. Growing up my Father played lead trumpet in the same band for many, many years and I cannot recall a weekend that he never played. New Years Eve was a given as well. My brother and I would go with him a lot and I would sit in on the drums when they did "Proud Mary". My brother was also a trumpet player and he would sit in on a few tunes. The rest of the time we would screw around back stage and loud up on free food and pop.


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## fredyfreeloader

Just a question Scott, but would that pop have been the same kind of pop that Don cherry always talks about?


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## Robert1950

I figure it would be unethically and morally wrong for someone to pay *me* to play.


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## bzrkrage

Is it bad to ask for a few beers & cab fare home? I'm not asking much.:bullbeg:


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## zontar

david henman said:


> not to mention the fact that music has been devalued because people feel they no longer obligated to pay for it,


Unless it's a big name, then they gladly fork over $100+ dollars to see something they can see on Youtube for free, because it's vanilla, and the experience of being there adds little or nothing to the overall experience...


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## prodigal_son

I think that venues that can not afford to pay for entertainment should not be hiring bands. If your venue is a loser to begin with, you should not expect bands to be in charge of attracting patrons to your establishment or be disappointed if no one shows up. If an act is good, the establishment needs to promote it and not blame the band as the venue could actually have something about it that repels people (i.e. scummy, expensive, bad location, etc..). It is the responsibility of the venue to take care of the promotion, not the band. Of course, it does help if the band can also do some promoting but is less significant.

If you are a working musician and are convinced that you are losing money because of bands who play for free, take a look around and count how many people are claiming to be musicians these days.


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## david henman

hummingway said:


> There are establishments that are making money off the music, that expect the bands to do all the heavy lifting of the promotion of events and then get paid from the door without a guarantee. There are undoubtedly are bars that aren't making money but there are many that are packing in the patrons. They have to be making money. Some of them have built a reputation on regular entertainment that they "showcase".


...if you know of any local bars in the gta that are actually making money from bands performing original music, there are a lot of us here who love to know where they are.


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## david henman

Guitar101 said:


> If the establishment does not want to share the wealth so to speak. I personally would not perform for free.



...i think we all agree on that, but the problem is that there is no longer any wealth to share.


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## david henman

prodigal_son said:


> I think that venues that can not afford to pay for entertainment should not be hiring bands. If your venue is a loser to begin with, you should not expect bands to be in charge of attracting patrons to your establishment or be disappointed if no one shows up. If an act is good, the establishment needs to promote it and not blame the band as the venue could actually have something about it that repels people (i.e. scummy, expensive, bad location, etc..). It is the responsibility of the venue to take care of the promotion, not the band. Of course, it does help if the band can also do some promoting but is less significant. If you are a working musician and are convinced that you are losing money because of bands who play for free, take a look around and count how many people are claiming to be musicians these days.


...in theory, perhaps. the reality, however, is probably after losing their shirts spending money to promote the bands they hired, with the direct result being that nobody showed up, the club owners simply ran out of money.

the bottom line here is that we can sit around looking for someone to blame and still be eons away from coming up with a viable solution to the problem.

and, in the end, the problem is ours, not some bar owners.


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## GuitarsCanada

What about these multi band cards that are being put together now. I had an old co-worker approach me last year and he was looking at opening something up in Mississauga that would have food/booze etc but was more like a concert venue than a bar. He was saying that they can be successful. But they are always multi band type scenarios.


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## david henman

GuitarsCanada said:


> What about these multi band cards that are being put together now. I had an old co-worker approach me last year and he was looking at opening something up in Mississauga that would have food/booze etc but was more like a concert venue than a bar. He was saying that they can be successful. But they are always multi band type scenarios.


...that is the kind of thing i would love to be involved in organizing, although more in community theatres etc than night clubs. 
but money really is not part of the equation.
even on a good night, you are unlikely to make enough to pay each member of each band more than 10-20 bucks.
in my opinion, bringing money into the equation is counterintuitive and counterproductive. 
whatever money is generated is better used to sustain the market, so to speak.
the goal, i think, should be to help original bands develop an audience so that they CAN make money, on their own.


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## GTmaker

I would like to add that even today, an audience willing to pay good money for live entertainment
I out there with wallets open.
my proof
https://www.casinorama.com/Event-List-View.html

I think the problem these days from my point of view is the perception of (money = good entertainment).
There is a reason some of those old rock and roll geezers are still kicking around and making good bucks.
That reason is that they came from an era where the word "entertainment" ment something.


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## GuitarsCanada

david henman said:


> ...that is the kind of thing i would love to be involved in organizing, although more in community theatres etc than night clubs.
> but money really is not part of the equation.
> even on a good night, you are unlikely to make enough to pay each member of each band more than 10-20 bucks.
> in my opinion, bringing money into the equation is counterintuitive and counterproductive.
> whatever money is generated is better used to sustain the market, so to speak.
> the goal, i think, should be to help original bands develop an audience so that they CAN make money, on their own.


I guess thats true. I have no idea what the money would be like in terms of take etc. I did attend a show a few years back that was promoted by Carparelli guitars. It was a multi band show held in one of those old theaters in Toronto. There was a lot of booze being sold but how much of that cash the bands see I have no idea. But I had the feeling that it was a play for free and get some exposure type of thing. I did see a lot of people grabbing up CD's from several of the bands after each set.


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## david henman

GTmaker said:


> I would like to add that even today, an audience willing to pay good money for live entertainment
> I out there with wallets open.
> my proof
> https://www.casinorama.com/Event-List-View.html
> 
> I think the problem these days from my point of view is the perception of (money = good entertainment).
> There is a reason some of those old rock and roll geezers are still kicking around and making good bucks.
> That reason is that they came from an era where the word "entertainment" ment something.


...what point are you trying to make?
once you have a name, or "brand", and a following/audience, getting paid is no longer the issue that it is here.
every name on that list is an act that has already been successful. 
of course people are going to pay money to see and hear them perform.


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## david henman

GuitarsCanada said:


> I guess thats true. I have no idea what the money would be like in terms of take etc. I did attend a show a few years back that was promoted by Carparelli guitars. It was a multi band show held in one of those old theaters in Toronto. There was a lot of booze being sold but how much of that cash the bands see I have no idea. But I had the feeling that it was a play for free and get some exposure type of thing. I did see a lot of people grabbing up CD's from several of the bands after each set.


...that is yet another benefit of performing for free in front a large audience - the merchandising, and the revenue it can generate.
when you are an unknown, performing for free has the potential to do far more good than harm, i believe.
then, once you are "in the game", you maximize each and every opportunity to make money.


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## hummingway

david henman said:


> ...if you know of any local bars in the gta that are actually making money from bands performing original music, there are a lot of us here who love to know where they are.


Well, not having lived in Toronto in 40 years would make it difficult but a quick web search came up with these places, some of which were around 40 years ago and sound like they're hosting original music: The Best Live Music Venues in Toronto

How often do you go out to listen?


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## david henman

hummingway said:


> Well, not having lived in Toronto in 40 years would make it difficult but a quick web search came up with these places, some of which were around 40 years ago and sound like they're hosting original music: The Best Live Music Venues in Toronto. How often do you go out to listen?


...very rarely. which is, again, part of the problem. only rarely can i afford the expense, and the time.

these are all great venues, and they all pay people who perform original music.

unless you are unknown....


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## GuitarsCanada

david henman said:


> ...very rarely. which is, again, part of the problem. only rarely can i afford the expense, and the time.
> 
> these are all great venues, and they all pay people who perform original music.
> 
> unless you are unknown....


I would agree. Most of the venues listed there are for acts like Johnny Winter, Coco Montoya, Saga et etc. bands or artists that have a fairly good following but not playing anything over say 500 people or so. Some of these places maybe 800 tops


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## gtone

In our local area, the live music scene is in a grave state. There are really no clubs/bars paying serious money for live talent any more (though some will pay considerably more for a DJ), unless you manage to land a gig in one of the bigger centres (we're 35K pop.). It is exceedingly common to see chump change (bit of "expense" money), free food/drinks or, in the worst cases, just the chance to sell your merch at some venues. If it weren't for summer festivals, coffee shop type gigs and parties/benefits (often self-promoted, multi-band dealies), there'd be almost no venues for some bands to play at, really. 

We see more and more touring acts now taken to offering their services in return for food/lodging at private homes, a passed hat at a home performance and some merch sales. All very sad really that it's coming to this.

To answer the OP's question, it probably is morally/ethically wrong to play for free where someone else is profiting - the greater the profit, the more exploitation that's going on. The other side of the coin, however, is that many young musicians just want to play, be heard at almost any cost and some of them believe that this will help them "build an audience" (probably so their audience can rip their music online for free) and so they will do virtually whatever it takes to play.

One of my friends owns a local bar/grill, says he typically pays $350 per gig and didn't seem to have any lack of bands willing to play for that on a Friday night, albeit most of them pretty young local talent. Even 10-12 yrs ago when the scene was still fairly buoyant, local bars would start paying $800-$1000 and go up from there depending on the act, so maybe it's a supply/demand thing today. In either case, it's a sad state of affairs for most of those that perform or enjoy experiencing live music.


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## sulphur

This is an interesting thread.

I was in a band for years in Manitoba starting around the mid nineties.
We were basically just jamming for fun, for the most part. No real aspirations of gigging.
We were asked to play a mutual friends wedding and agreed. This was pro-bono.

From that wedding, we ended up with several paying gigs around town,
which then led to repeat gigs in those places that we played.

We had played another free gig later on, which was a benefit to raise cash for a local guy that needed a kidney transplant.

These days, it would only have to be a good cause in order for me to put in that kind of effort to play for free.
Of course, I'd have to be in a band in order to even worry about that situation.


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## Guest

Subbed.

Watching the flow here. Nothing to say...yet.


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## Guest

sulphur said:


> We were basically just jamming for fun, for the most part. No real aspirations of gigging.


Pretty much same here. A basement band gigging just for fun.
I wonder if 'riff wrath' is reading this thread. And should we be
asking for a little stipend. lol.


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## Guitar101

Pretty sad really. My gigging buddies get around $100 each for a gig.
If you do the math - that's 1 hr set up + 4 hrs playing + 1 hr teardown = 6 hrs ( 100 / 6 = $16.50 an hour ) A little better than minimum wage and thats not including transportation costs to and from the gig.

Now get out those guitars and start practicing.


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## gtone

For the peanuts being paid, you can see why one, two and three piece acts are proliferating - there simply isn't enough money on offer to make a larger setup work. 

That being said, last thing I want to see in a club is someone playing guitar/keyboards and singing over backing tracks (right up there with karaoke, as far as I'm concerned). Lose the backing tracks, play/sing from the heart with your instrument and the cheese factor would be vanquished, IMO.


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## allthumbs56

You see a lot of the bars going the open mic route. This is one way to feel ok not getting paid and getting your music out there. The only problem is that most of the audience are other players thinking the same thing.

But musicians like to drink - so it's a win for the bar.

Me, I don't do open mics or showcases or play for free in any other way unless it's a benefit or it's for/with friends. I don't play "cheap" either. I learned this as a musician and also from being self-employed these past few years - working for free/cheap does nothing more than give you the reputation of being 1) someone who can be taken advantage of, or 2) someone whose work is not very good.

If you do not value your time then don't expect others to..........................


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## Guest

I'm ready to contribute.

I'm guilty of the youthful sin of undervaluing my art. I've made my mistakes. I try not to make those mistakes now.

To that end I tell any youth who might be inclined to listen to my old man rumblings that you shouldn't play for free. That you're worth much more than $0. That exposure is worth much less than $0.

Not many of them listen.

You guys and gals might be interested int what a guy named Mike Montiero has to say about working for spec in the design industry. It's their equivalent to playing for exposure or beers. And he's got some solid advice in his new book Design is a Job: http://www.abookapart.com/products/design-is-a-job/

Also, his talk Fuck You, Pay Me is rather excellent: http://vimeo.com/22053820

Solid advice.


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## david henman

...to anyone here who believes that i (or anyone else) should refuse to play for free: are you suggesting that i should just pack it in? stay home, drink beer and watch tv?

or, even better, do you know of any venues in the gta that are willing to pay me to perform my own, original music?

if not, then what?




iaresee said:


> I'm ready to contribute.
> 
> I'm guilty of the youthful sin of undervaluing my art. I've made my mistakes. I try not to make those mistakes now.
> 
> To that end I tell any youth who might be inclined to listen to my old man rumblings that you shouldn't play for free. That you're worth much more than $0. That exposure is worth much less than $0.
> 
> Not many of them listen.
> 
> You guys and gals might be interested int what a guy named Mike Montiero has to say about working for spec in the design industry. It's their equivalent to playing for exposure or beers. And he's got some solid advice in his new book Design is a Job: A Book Apart, Design Is a Job
> 
> Also, his talk Fuck You, Pay Me is rather excellent: 2011/03 Mike Monteiro | F*ck You. Pay Me. on Vimeo
> 
> Solid advice.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

iaresee said:


> Also, his talk Fuck You, Pay Me is rather excellent: 2011/03 Mike Monteiro | F*ck You. Pay Me. on Vimeo
> 
> Solid advice.


Clearly his best attribute is not public speaking or presentations, but the points are well taken. Make sure to cover your ass


----------



## Guest

david henman said:


> ...to anyone here who believes that i (or anyone else) should refuse to play for free: are you suggesting that i should just pack it in? stay home, drink beer and watch tv?


I'm not telling you to do anything. Only what I do.



> or, even better, do you know of any venues in the gta that are willing to pay me to perform my own, original music?


I'm nearly five years out of the GTA scene now but I never had to play for free when I performed there. Worst case: I had to be both band and promoter and I played for the door. Which is not free. But was a lot of work with a highly variable rate of return.


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## Guest

GuitarsCanada said:


> Clearly his best attribute is not public speaking or presentations, but the points are well taken. Make sure to cover your ass


Some of the contract stuff is hard to apply to gigging without shutting out a lot of venues, and he's talking about jobs worth more than a night in a bar, but yea: the points are the take home.


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## david henman

iaresee said:


> I'm not telling you to do anything. Only what I do.
> I'm nearly five years out of the GTA scene now but I never had to play for free when I performed there. Worst case: I had to be both band and promoter and I played for the door. Which is not free. But was a lot of work with a highly variable rate of return.



...just so we're on the same page: you were performing 100% original material?

i do realize that i can perform pretty much anywhere for the door. and, as you say, it is "a lot of work with a highly variable rate of return."

that, in fact, is putting it mildly...

doesn't it make far more sense to play for free in front of an actual audience than in front of the six friends you have managed to convince to pay to see you at a "door" gig?

not to mention having to persuade those same six friends to keep showing up...


----------



## david henman

iaresee said:


> Also, his talk Fuck You, Pay Me is rather excellent: 2011/03 Mike Monteiro | F*ck You. Pay Me. on Vimeo



...unfortunately, i don't have time to view this, but i am curious to know the salient points.

like, how do you get a club owner, for example, to pay a reasonable amount of money for an unknown original band to perform for those six drunk regulars that show up at his bar every night, no matter what.

or the bigger question: why would you even want to...


----------



## allthumbs56

david henman said:


> ...just so we're on the same page: you were performing 100% original material?
> 
> i do realize that i can perform pretty much anywhere for the door. and, as you say, it is "a lot of work with a highly variable rate of return."
> 
> that, in fact, is putting it mildly...
> 
> doesn't it make far more sense to play for free in front of an actual audience than in front of the six friends you have managed to convince to pay to see you at a "door" gig?
> 
> not to mention having to persuade those same six friends to keep showing up...


David, I think the question you need to answer is "What am I trying to accomplish"? .................. and does playing for free help to get you there.


----------



## Guest

david henman said:


> doesn't it make far more sense to play for free in front of an actual audience than in front of the six friends you have managed to convince to pay to see you at a "door" gig?
> 
> not to mention having to persuade those same six friends to keep showing up...


Your six friends would expect to be on the guest list.
So, no payment there. lol.


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## Guest

david henman said:


> ...just so we're on the same page: you were performing 100% original material?


Yes. We'd do the usual one or two covers in a set and that was it. The Apollo Effect (http://theapoloeffect.com) and Universal Honey (http://universalhoney.com). Healey's, The Hard Rock, The Shoe, The Elmo, Rancho Relaxo, Crowbar, Cadillac Lounge, Budda...that's just off the top of my head. And we didn't pay in TO that much. Every 4 months or so. Most shows were in the horseshoe area. Can definitely overplay a town.



> doesn't it make far more sense to play for free in front of an actual audience than in front of the six friends you have managed to convince to pay to see you at a "door" gig?
> 
> not to mention having to persuade those same six friends to keep showing up...


Yea. If your paying gigs are friends and family over and over you're doing it wrong. Can't really help you much there.

If that make sense to you, do it. Doesn't to me. But we we could start to fill a small room with non-friend/family fans in the GTA and usually finish it out with randoms and first timers if we pushed hard with flyers.


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## david henman

allthumbs56 said:


> David, I think the question you need to answer is "What am I trying to accomplish"? .................. and does playing for free help to get you there.


...absolutely, and i have.

but i keep running up against a mentality that says that i am hurting other musicians by performing for free.


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## david henman

iaresee said:


> Yes. We'd do the usual one or two covers in a set and that was it. The Apollo Effect (http://theapoloeffect.com) and Universal Honey (universalhoney.com). Healey's, The Hard Rock, The Shoe, The Elmo, Rancho Relaxo, Crowbar, Cadillac Lounge, Budda...that's just off the top of my head. And we didn't pay in TO that much. Every 4 months or so. Most shows were in the horseshoe area. Can definitely overplay a town.
> Yea. If your paying gigs are friends and family over and over you're doing it wrong. Can't really help you much there.
> If that make sense to you, do it. Doesn't to me. But we we could start to fill a small room with non-friend/family fans in the GTA and usually finish it out with randoms and first timers if we pushed hard with flyers.


...i hear you, and if i was still in my teens or 20s with lots of time on my hands, that is what i would do, and what i would recommend others do.

but we have to play the hand we are dealt.


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## Guest

david henman said:


> ...absolutely, and i have.
> 
> but i keep running up against a mentality that says that i am hurting other musicians by performing for free.


I tend to be of the mindset that I control my own destiny. Therefore I rarely think the actions of other musicians have much impact on me. Nor I on them. I don't think you're hurting anyone playing for free. If you playing a venue for free means they wouldn't want me to make money playing there, that's not a venue I'd consider paying.

Honestly, I've always figured quality costs and venues routinely getting free acts are routinely getting sub-par acts. Can't say I know many (any?) killer god acts that never get paid.


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## Guest

david henman said:


> ...i hear you, and if i was still in my teens or 20s with lots of time on my hands, that is what i would do, and what i would recommend others do.
> 
> but we have to play the hand we are dealt.


It was a LOT of work. And I haven't done it since we moved to Ottawa five years ago. I'm not sure I'd have the time and energy to do it again. UH had a promoter BTW. They set up the shows and did marketing. With TAE, any time we trusted the bar or organizer to do promo we were disappointed. No one cares about your business like you care about your business.

With TAE we did a lot of Internet/podcast promo work. We'd interview on indie music podcasts and play for free there. That was good exposure IMO.


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## aftermidnight

Is the musician's union active in your area?

In Ottawa (20 years ago) I used to hear terms like 'scabs' used for musicians who played bar gigs for anything less than union scale ...... never mind playing for free.


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## allthumbs56

david henman said:


> ...absolutely, and i have.
> 
> but i keep running up against a mentality that says that i am hurting other musicians by performing for free.


If your venue of choice usually pays bands to perform and you offer to play for free then, yeah, you're hurting other musicians. If the venue is designed to allow emerging artists a stage and an audience and does not pay otherwise then as far as I'm concerned you're ok.

If you come around here and want to play Brown-eyed Girl for free then you're stepping on my toes


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## hummingway

aftermidnight said:


> Is the musician's union active in your area?
> 
> In Ottawa (20 years ago) I used to hear terms like 'scabs' used for musicians who played bar gigs for anything less than union scale ...... never mind playing for free.


I played my first solo professional gig in '74. It was a union 6 nighter and paid $300 which would rent you a house for a month in those days, so call it $1200-1500 in today's dollars. I didn't find a lot of union gigs over the years and the union changed its perspective. I worked on an album for A&M around 1990 and the union got me royalties as well as a fair wage. At that time I would get about $500 for a single night. 

Sunday night I played for $50. 



allthumbs56 said:


> If your venue of choice usually pays bands to perform and you offer to play for free then, yeah, you're hurting other musicians. If the venue is designed to allow emerging artists a stage and an audience and does not pay otherwise then as far as I'm concerned you're ok.
> 
> If you come around here and want to play Brown-eyed Girl for free then you're stepping on my toes


The venue should also facilitate the possibility of the band making money I think. Most don't seem to understand that. I becomes up to the musician to advertise, collect any monies, sell cd's and swag. 

I lived in Edmonton for a while. I founded the Edmonton Blues Society and was it's first president. I did it because I felt there was a need to provide a good venue for players who weren't doing the bar circuit. When I ran it we didn't pay bands but we took care of everything for them. We gave them a packed house to play to, sold their merchandise for them, made them look and sound good. I left after a few years to go do other things and it changed to suit someone else's vision but during the years I ran it a lot of bands had the opportunity to get a good start and build a fan base. To me that is a showcase.


----------



## Guest

hummingway said:


> I lived in Edmonton for a while. I founded the Edmonton Blues Society and was it's first president. I did it because I felt there was a need to provide a good venue for players who weren't doing the bar circuit. When I ran it we didn't pay bands but we took care of everything for them. We gave them a packed house to play to, sold their merchandise for them, made them look and sound good. I left after a few years to go do other things and it changed to suit someone else's vision but during the years I ran it a lot of bands had the opportunity to get a good start and build a fan base. To me that is a showcase.


That, to me, sounds like an excellent way for a venue to behave. The venue doesn't have to pay the musicians, but it shouldn't stop them from making money.


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## david henman

allthumbs56 said:


> If your venue of choice usually pays bands to perform and you offer to play for free then, yeah, you're hurting other musicians. If the venue is designed to allow emerging artists a stage and an audience and does not pay otherwise then as far as I'm concerned you're ok. If you come around here and want to play Brown-eyed Girl for free then you're stepping on my toes


...well, given the fact that NO venue pays an unknown band to perform original music, i guess i'm innocent of all charges.
nor will you ever catch me performing covers for free.


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## david henman

aftermidnight said:


> Is the musician's union active in your area?
> In Ottawa (20 years ago) I used to hear terms like 'scabs' used for musicians who played bar gigs for anything less than union scale ...... never mind playing for free.


...that was probably the last time the musician's union had any relevance.


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## david henman

hummingway said:


> I lived in Edmonton for a while. I founded the Edmonton Blues Society and was it's first president. I did it because I felt there was a need to provide a good venue for players who weren't doing the bar circuit. When I ran it we didn't pay bands but we took care of everything for them. We gave them a packed house to play to, sold their merchandise for them, made them look and sound good. I left after a few years to go do other things and it changed to suit someone else's vision but during the years I ran it a lot of bands had the opportunity to get a good start and build a fan base. To me that is a showcase.


...i would love to organize something like that in southern ontario, taking advantage of the myriad of small community theatres, many of which already have sound, lights and even staff.

i've approached people with my idea for a "life music series" but, so far, no takers.


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## aftermidnight

david henman said:


> ...that was probably the last time the musician's union had any relevance.


I am out of the loop with respect to the present union situation in Ottawa and/or their current view on this ...... (and things have probably changed) ......... but when playing the bar circuit (original material or not) was your only job and sole source of income ........ playing for less than scale was a pretty sensitive issue.

In the past, I believe most (if not all) of the good bands in Ottawa were in the union ...... so if you owned a bar and wanted the best for entertainment you had to hire a union band ........ and if a bar hired a non-union band to pay less than scale they would be blacklisted ........ and of course, there have always been coffee shops, restaurants, etc. that didn't care about union blacklists and cut their own deals.

Not sure, but I have heard you need to be a member to play government gigs (Xmas parties, Canada Day events, etc.) ...... something about contract language and government hiring ..... as well, it is my understanding that the National Arts Centre orchestra are all union members ..... so I suspect the union is still kicking.

Since I do not have any original material, hauling gear around to play for a bunch of drunken divorcees is not my idea of a good time ...... and definitely worth more than pocket change.

Unsubstantiated trivia ..... I heard somewhere that the musician’s union is supposedly the largest (most members) in the world.


----------



## hummingway

david henman said:


> ...i would love to organize something like that in southern ontario, taking advantage of the myriad of small community theatres, many of which already have sound, lights and even staff.
> 
> i've approached people with my idea for a "life music series" but, so far, no takers.


To do it, in my experience, you have to make the initial investment and effort on your own. I carried it for six months or so risking my own money until we got ahead by enough that I didn't have to. I pulled folks in to form a board but in the early going all the organization was on me. I had lots of help with the events though and eventually people began taking more responsibility for the stuff that happened in between. 

We got off to a good start in part because I asked 10 folks to do whatever it took to bring 6 people each to the first event and they did. I'm a firm believer in cooperative efforts but it can be difficult to get people excited about a vision.


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## fredyfreeloader

I personally don't find anything morally or ethically wrong with playing for free. That having been said I only did freebee's for charities like the Variety club in Vancouver, Shriners club etc. everything else was by union contract. I joined the union in 1964 and resigned in1985 when I
applied for the position of business agent for the union and at the interview I was politely told that they wanted a legitimate musician for that position ie. symphony musician only, they apologized afterward for having intimated that the rest of us in the union were not legitimate. I realized that I should resign after the union would not take action against a booking agent who was not ethical in his dealings, as this agent was (as the business agent said) the unions best agent. I suggested that the union was more interested in helping booking agents rather than helping dues paying musicians. I resigned a member in good standing. I still didn't do freebee's and still wouldn't although who the hell would want to hire me today I'm an old fart.


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## aftermidnight

Personally, I do not have a problem playing for free either ...... but it better not be for a bar manager, restaurant owner, etc. trying to make money off of my efforts ...... because if they are, I want a piece of the action ...... IMHO, it’s not fun playing for drunks, it’s work, ...... not counting wear and tear on my gear and vehicle, etc. ....... charities, benefits, parties, friend’s weddings, etc. ....... maybe, but I would need to assess on a case-by-case basis.

I am an old fart as well and currently get my musical highs by playing what I want to play with like-minded musicians at informal jams without a fickle, demanding audience ....... and will haul gear 100kms to do so ...... no bar manager to hassle with at the end of the night complaining because you didn’t play top 40, too loud, not loud enough, too much country, not enough country, nobody was dancing, etc., etc..

If I were just starting out, and had something to sell, I think I would be using the internet (infinitely larger audience) for band exposure/promotion ..... if your material is any good, people will hear it and hopefully you will be compensated for it somehow ..... I think some new bands have even offered free downloads of their music and only asked for donations of whatever their audience thought it was worth.

Morals and ethics aside ........ I think playing free for bar managers, restaurants, etc. in general ...... is a dead-end road for any musician ...... if they want live entertainment to help bring in customers, and they are making money off you ....... let them pay accordingly.


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## GuitarsCanada

david henman said:


> ...i would love to organize something like that in southern ontario, taking advantage of the myriad of small community theatres, many of which already have sound, lights and even staff.
> 
> i've approached people with my idea for a "life music series" but, so far, no takers.


Well I would kick in as much free advertising as I could here on the forum. Banners, emails etc as well as the GC Facebook and Twitter accounts. So if anyone wants to try and organize it, keep that in mind.


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## Jim DaddyO

david henman said:


> ...i would love to organize something like that in southern ontario, taking advantage of the myriad of small community theatres, many of which already have sound, lights and even staff.
> 
> i've approached people with my idea for a "life music series" but, so far, no takers.


Sounds like the direction I was trying to go too. I was helping a guy out with a venue that had everything needed (including 24 tracks of digital and 16 tracks of analogue recording capabilities, plus some goodies), but, it seems, his dream and my dream were not in sync and I could not deal with the frustration and had to remove myself from his company.


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## david henman

GuitarsCanada said:


> Well I would kick in as much free advertising as I could here on the forum. Banners, emails etc as well as the GC Facebook and Twitter accounts. So if anyone wants to try and organize it, keep that in mind.



...tell me if this makes sense: 

a live music series, to be held in various community theatres around southern ontario, and featuring unknown performers who specialize in performing their own original material, including jazz, folk, pop, celtic, country, bluegrass and rock.

what is the missing ingredient?

someone with the time, energy and resources to do the work, including booking the dates, booking the performers and ensuring the kind of marketing and publicity that will attract audiences.

here's the kicker: that person would get paid. the musicians wouldn't.

why?

because it is extremely unlikely that enough money could be generated to pay the musicians more than chump change.

because unless the person who is doing all the work to ensure that these artists have an almost ideal environment and attentive audience is able to profit, why would they bother?

why is an idea like this doomed to fail?

because short-sighted musicians won't understand why the person *doing all the work on their behalf* gets paid, and they don't.


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## 4345567

__________


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## david henman

nkjanssen said:


> I think the bigger missing ingredient is an audience that actually wants to pay to see that. It seems to me that about 95% of the world has no interest in live music at all. Of the 5% who do, 95% of those want to hear music they know (covers or established bands). There are very few people with any interest in hearing new live music. And among those, very few are willing to pay for it.
> It's a depressing thought. I wish it wasn't that way. But everything I've seen in the past 10 years or so leads me to that conclusion.



...unfortunately, you may be right.

the quality of the music and performances would have to be exemplary.
and the event(s) would have to be promoted as serious music for serious audiences, obviously an older demographic.
ticket prices would have to be extremely low, yet still imbue a sense of value to the event.
the key would be the marketing.
it would have to be extensive and, ideally, have the support of a sponsor and/or charity organization.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

david henman said:


> ...tell me if this makes sense:
> 
> a live music series, to be held in various community theatres around southern ontario, and featuring unknown performers who specialize in performing their own original material, including jazz, folk, pop, celtic, country, bluegrass and rock.
> 
> what is the missing ingredient?
> 
> someone with the time, energy and resources to do the work, including booking the dates, booking the performers and ensuring the kind of marketing and publicity that will attract audiences.
> 
> here's the kicker: that person would get paid. the musicians wouldn't.
> 
> why?
> 
> because it is extremely unlikely that enough money could be generated to pay the musicians more than chump change.
> 
> because unless the person who is doing all the work to ensure that these artists have an almost ideal environment and attentive audience is able to profit, why would they bother?
> 
> why is an idea like this doomed to fail?
> 
> because short-sighted musicians won't understand why the person *doing all the work on their behalf* gets paid, and they don't.


It has been my experience that most of these things fail due to a lack of promotion and advertising. How many times have we heard "I wish I would have known?" after the fact. But advertising and promotion is not cheap in many cases and it requires a lot of work. Especially in the local area where the event is taking place. Its a tough gig and that's probably why we don't see it happening. But also, as has been mentioned there are other issues like declining interest in live music etc etc. So if it is going to be done successfully it requires a lot of promotion and lead time.


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## david henman

GuitarsCanada said:


> It has been my experience that most of these things fail due to a lack of promotion and advertising. How many times have we heard "I wish I would have known?" after the fact. But advertising and promotion is not cheap in many cases and it requires a lot of work. Especially in the local area where the event is taking place. Its a tough gig and that's probably why we don't see it happening. But also, as has been mentioned there are other issues like declining interest in live music etc etc. So if it is going to be done successfully it requires a lot of promotion and lead time.



...absolutely. this initiative would either succeed or fail based upon the promotion and advertising, which will require a lot of legwork, a lot of contacts, a lot of savvy and a lot of resources.
the right person could pull all of this together, but they would have to be rewarded in two ways: 1. financial compensation and 2. more than ample opportunity to build their own brand/profile.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

david henman said:


> ...absolutely. this initiative would either succeed or fail based upon the promotion and advertising, which will require a lot of legwork, a lot of contacts, a lot of savvy and a lot of resources.
> the right person could pull all of this together, but they would have to be rewarded in two ways: 1. financial compensation and 2. more than ample opportunity to build their own brand/profile.


I would agree. There would certainly be upfront costs that would need to be spent. That money would have to be recovered or nobody is going to take it on. A minimum break even is a must. I will talk with the dude that was going to do something in Mississauga and see how he is making out


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## aftermidnight

Not sure, but it sounds like you are looking for smaller roots-based kind of venues ..... gigs with mostly acoustic or low key electric type instruments.

If so, they are probably already out there in your area.

A couple that come to mind around Ottawa are this one in Almonte (pop approx 4600 just outside the city) ....... Folkus is a roots-based music series ...... a beautiful old town hall with great acoustics.

Another in Burnstown (just outside Ottawa) .... Neat Coffee Shop &mdash; Shows ...... and old schoolhouse with great ambience ....... it's like the band is playing in your living room.

Not sure who promotes the town hall venue ...... might even be the town itself ...... the second is a privately owned/run operation ....... there is a restaurant on site but that is not where you play ..... it’s like a little theatre that is attached and completely separate from the restaurant.

The people that pay for entertainment at these places are there to listen to the music ...... not drink, scream, holler, eat food, etc. when you are playing ...... YOU are why they are there.

To me, if I had original material that I wanted to get out there ....... I would find out who does the booking for these places and drop off CD's.

As well, John Mayall recently plated a community centre in Constance Bay (pop approx 3000 just outside Ottawa)...... John Mayall on stage in Constance Bay June 24 - Events - By Sherry Haaima West Carleton Local Community News

..... so the old town halls, old school houses, community centres, etc. are being used for smaller concert type events ..... maybe you just have to find them.

Hope this helps.


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## aftermidnight

Just found this on the Neat Cafe mentioned above ...... sounds like seating capacity is for about 80 people max.

I think they said these guys are from South Africa ......

[video=youtube;03s9bYdXj6Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03s9bYdXj6Y[/video]


I think the Proclaimers played there last year and I believe Ashley MacIsaac is there this month ....... but they have lots of other folk, jazz, latin, etc. performers that are just starting out.

Venue ..... small town (pop approx 100) ....... old schoolhouse ....... privately owned and operated.


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## marcos

No shame in playing for free. When starting off in this business its hard enough to get stage time,let alone paying gigs so its o.k when starting up to get your fan base. Just watch out for those who pray on inocent musicians.
Also playing for charitable org. is a very good thing. It shows that you are willing to spend time and help out your community. I do a few a year and am very greatful. Dont worry about people who tell you otherwise.


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## david henman

aftermidnight said:


> Not sure, but it sounds like you are looking for smaller roots-based kind of venues ..... gigs with mostly acoustic or low key electric type instruments.
> If so, they are probably already out there in your area.
> A couple that come to mind around Ottawa are this one in Almonte (pop approx 4600 just outside the city) ....... Folkus is a roots-based music series ...... a beautiful old town hall with great acoustics.
> Another in Burnstown (just outside Ottawa) .... Neat Coffee Shop &mdash; Shows ...... and old schoolhouse with great ambience ....... it's like the band is playing in your living room.
> Not sure who promotes the town hall venue ...... might even be the town itself ...... the second is a privately owned/run operation ....... there is a restaurant on site but that is not where you play ..... it’s like a little theatre that is attached and completely separate from the restaurant.
> The people that pay for entertainment at these places are there to listen to the music ...... not drink, scream, holler, eat food, etc. when you are playing ...... YOU are why they are there.
> To me, if I had original material that I wanted to get out there ....... I would find out who does the booking for these places and drop off CD's.
> As well, John Mayall recently plated a community centre in Constance Bay (pop approx 3000 just outside Ottawa)...... John Mayall on stage in Constance Bay June 24 - Events - By Sherry Haaima West Carleton Local Community News
> ..... so the old town halls, old school houses, community centres, etc. are being used for smaller concert type events ..... maybe you just have to find them.
> Hope this helps.


...there are probably a few places like this in toronto.
i've played free times quite a bit, but they are struggling.
i'm looking into booking a night at c'est what, as well.


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## robare99

Come mow my lawn after, since you like working for free. 





Kinda joking. Myself and my band are paid well, we play covers for private events. We do bring some pretty good production (just over $25k for PA, not counting personal instruments) we have a good time, entertain the crowd and make a decent buck doing it. There's a number of bands around playing for free here and there, but I'm not interested in being the go-to guy for free entertainment.

My time is worth more than that. Sure we just play covers, but we have fun and it pays well.


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## david henman

robare99 said:


> Come mow my lawn after, since you like working for free.


...might as well, since it doesn't appear that i'll get to mow my own lawn this summer.

just to be clear, tho', i don't think anyone "likes" performing for free..


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## Brennan

My 2 cents, as a previously gigging musician who unfortunately hasn't been in a band the last two years:

IMHO playing for free is no more immoral than a store lowering it's prices to get more business (thereby undercutting someone else's). Everyone's gotta eat, and if you genuinely believe that it will benefit you in the long run, do it and hold your head up high. That said, I think the inherent problem here is that bands are still trying to play bars at all. Bars have always been a horrible venue for live music even when there was money in it and now that there isn't, I think it's really time to move on. I do believe that there is still money to be made in live performances, but as mentioned, you need to already have an audience ... the days of building an audience through gigs are over. These days it's all about finding new and interesting ways of getting your name out there. Not to say it's not possible, but if you can pull it off you're one in a million.

An average or even below average musician with a clever marketing strategy that grabs people's attention will almost always be more successful than even a hugely talented one playing in bars night after night. It's the way the industry has evolved, and I think musicians will either need to evolve with it, or continue paying venues to let them play for a bunch of drunk people who aren't listening.

Just my opinion of course, and I'd love to be proven wrong.


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## david henman

...i believe that your observations are absolutely dead on, brennan.




Brennan said:


> My 2 cents, as a previously gigging musician who unfortunately hasn't been in a band the last two years:
> 
> IMHO playing for free is no more immoral than a store lowering it's prices to get more business (thereby undercutting someone else's). Everyone's gotta eat, and if you genuinely believe that it will benefit you in the long run, do it and hold your head up high. That said, I think the inherent problem here is that bands are still trying to play bars at all. Bars have always been a horrible venue for live music even when there was money in it and now that there isn't, I think it's really time to move on. I do believe that there is still money to be made in live performances, but as mentioned, you need to already have an audience ... the days of building an audience through gigs are over. These days it's all about finding new and interesting ways of getting your name out there. Not to say it's not possible, but if you can pull it off you're one in a million.
> 
> An average or even below average musician with a clever marketing strategy that grabs people's attention will almost always be more successful than even a hugely talented one playing in bars night after night. It's the way the industry has evolved, and I think musicians will either need to evolve with it, or continue paying venues to let them play for a bunch of drunk people who aren't listening.
> 
> Just my opinion of course, and I'd love to be proven wrong.


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## Bruiser74

Great discussion going on here.
When i was gigging, albeit it was a hobby for us, I would say half of our
gig were free and the other half were paid club gigs. Our free gigs were 
at festivals during the summers in our town and some nearby towns. 

To the guys that gig to make a living, my hats off to you!
B


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## bw66

Brennan said:


> ... if you genuinely believe that it will benefit you in the long run, do it and hold your head up high.


Late to a great discussion, but that statement pretty much sums it up for me.

I remember years ago, someone asked the owner of the AV company I was working for why we did so many gigs for free. He answered to the effect that, "We don't do any gigs for free. We might not be getting paid, but we are most definitely getting SOMETHING out of it, if we're not, we're not doing the gig."


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## sulphur




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## Guest

Reviving this thread in light of all the huffing and puffing that's come out of Amanda Palmer asking for horns and strings to play for free at her gigs: WANTED: HORN-Y AND STRING-Y VOLUNTEERS FOR THE GRAND THEFT ORCHESTRA TOUR!!!! - Amanda Palmer

Gotta say: that's a gig I'd do if she was looking for guitar players. It's slightly different from what David was originally getting at -- this is sitting in with someone, playing their music. But I'd liken it to when my musical heros have sat in with my band and never asked for more than a few pints and dinner. You don't do it because it pays, you do it because it'd be fun and an gig you'd never otherwise have a chance to do.


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## FrankyNoTone

Musicians are priviledge to "work" in a profession which is a labour of love. I think they should be saying to themselves... "I can't believe I'm getting paid to do this". Compare that to a plumber: I'm pretty sure that they don't get a endorphin rush from unclogging a toilet.

Everyone does need to eat but I'm afraid that musicians have a long history of being poor businessmen and getting shafted by the music biz, their own managers, etc. I believe the business model for musicians needs to change in today's world. As an example, you don't pay for using Google or Facebook, but somehow they make tons of money. So be creative.


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## bw66

FrankyNoTone said:


> musicians have a long history of being poor businessmen


Yup. If you want to make money, you need to start by understanding how business works.


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## allthumbs56

iaresee said:


> Reviving this thread in light of all the huffing and puffing that's come out of Amanda Palmer asking for horns and strings to play for free at her gigs: WANTED: HORN-Y AND STRING-Y VOLUNTEERS FOR THE GRAND THEFT ORCHESTRA TOUR!!!! - Amanda Palmer
> 
> Gotta say: that's a gig I'd do if she was looking for guitar players. It's slightly different from what David was originally getting at -- this is sitting in with someone, playing their music. But I'd liken it to when my musical heros have sat in with my band and never asked for more than a few pints and dinner. You don't do it because it pays, you do it because it'd be fun and an gig you'd never otherwise have a chance to do.


You apply, show up for auditions, attend practice, dress and act accordingly and be a "professional" musician, reading charts and being directed. While you're on stage take a look around - everybody else is getting paid. Does she wrap up the night by thanking you by name? Nah - you get to say you played with her and got backstage. Her ego astounds me.

It's not exactly BB King inviting you up on stage frm the audience to play Thrill is Gone with him.


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## Guest

allthumbs56 said:


> You apply, show up for auditions, attend practice, dress and act accordingly and be a "professional" musician, reading charts and being directed. While you're on stage take a look around - everybody else is getting paid. Does she wrap up the night by thanking you by name? Nah - you get to say you played with her and got backstage. Her ego astounds me.


Speculative on the assumptions about the experience there. By all accounts she's built her career on being very engaged with fans. I have to think she's more attentive to the volunteers than your assumed scenario implies. She's certainly more interactive with her fans in every other medium, so why not in real as well? Reports back from people who've done it so far have been positive; you hang with the band for the night. She did a "couch tour" a year or so ago -- you put her and the band up, she'd play your back yard and you go to the local show for free.

Edit: first hand account of doing this: http://blogs.sfweekly.com/shookdown...nda_palmer_for_free_by_sf_cellist_unwoman.php

Edit: Accounting for the $1.2M she raised: http://www.amandapalmer.net/blog/where-all-this-kickstarter-money-is-going-by-amanda/



> It's not exactly BB King inviting you up on stage frm the audience to play Thrill is Gone with him.


I'm not sure I get your comparison here -- maybe it's not BB King because you like BB King more? But to a fan, what does it matter how big they are or where the stage is?

I got to sit in with Jeff Healey and hang out with him for a night. Sure the stage was tiny. The crowd was small. And I sure as hell didn't get paid and wasn't going to ask about it. But that's a life experience I'll hold on to until the end of my days.

I've had some of my hero's sit in with bands I've played in over the years. They never got paid. Never even dreamed of asking for money. With The Apollo Effect we did some shows with Stephen Stanley. He and Carla MacNeil even opened (for free!) for us once, tiny little club in Toronto called Ciao Edie. And a few times he joined us on stage, we'd play a few of his songs (damn I *love* Your Birthday Party -- that song is brilliant), he'd stick around for one of ours.

Dave Bidini and Tyler Stewart sat in with Universal Honey on separate occasions -- again: not comp'ed.

There's more to all of it than just making a buck. There's a spectrum of reasons for and again. I get why someone may not do it, but don't understand the vilification of someone who would do it by those that wouldn't. Good opinion piece on it here: http://whatbettyknows.com/2012/09/13/why-i-volunteered-to-play-with-amanda-palmer/

Edit: AFPs post about everything: an open letter in response to amy, re: musicians, volunteering, and the freedom to choose. Which is long but ends with a good sentiment:



> so, in closing:
> 
> i would never criticize or judge you for drawing your own lines and deciding how to value your talent and time.
> more power to you, for real. it takes a strong commitment to do that, and i wish you luck.
> 
> in exchange, i’d ask that you not criticize us because we belong to a different culture, where we’re playing a different game, with different rules.
> 
> and we’re making a pretty joyful noise, and we’re happy to welcome those, with no judgement, who want to hop on stage and make it louder.
> 
> from one musician to another
> with loads of love and respect,
> 
> afp


Which goes in line with: what they're doing doesn't hurt anyone any only makes the people doing it, because they're there as willing participants, all the more happy. That can't be bad.


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## Guest

@ Amanda. The amount of beer I could drink in an hour
would exceed what I earn in three. I'd do it. 
Partae!!


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## Guest

Update from me: if you've read her response post you'll see that in some cities she called in specific musicians and...paid them. NYC for example. Under the guise of not wanting to take as big a risk in those locations.

This is, admittedly, not sitting well with me. That she can dig deep and find it when she wants to, but not always. That her tolerance for the risk changes from city to city is even bugging me. Because, as you say, why is NYC so much more important than Spokane or Tulsa? The inconsistency is irking me, not the asking. It makes it feel far less genuine when it's not consistently done with volunteers in my mind. It starts to lose the sheen of "doing it for the fun" when it's inconsistent like that.


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## allthumbs56

Interesting, that. I guess the bottom line is that you get what you pay for.


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## robare99

bw66 said:


> Yup. If you want to make money, you need to start by understanding how business works.


I hear the best way to make a million dollars in the music industry, is to start with 2 million. 



And as far as the Amanda thing is concerned. I don't leave the house with a guitar case for less than $150. 




Unless its something for my mom. 






I don't really agree with shelling out for mission critical gigs and winging it for others. The opening act sitting in, would work for me, as they are being paid as an opening act, and thu are being accommodated on the bus as well.


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## sman

I just read through some of these posts... but couldn't make it through all 10 pages!
It is interesting to hear peoples opinion's on the matter!
I always found it interesting how musicians and artists have a sense of entitlement. They seem to think everyone should listen to their music (and pay money for the pleasure) 
If you are good at what you do, and you can draw a crowd you will get paid. But it is a lot of work, and it won't happen overnight. Bars are in the business of selling booze! If you can't draw people, no one wins! I don't think the bar should have to pay bands that can't draw? Why should they be on the hook, they are the ones taking all the risk? If you don't draw people, you are costing them money (they could have booked someone else who can draw people).
I play in an original band. We are by no means a big band... and we are all just weekend warriors. Making money isn't our prime objective. But we never have a hard time booking shows, or getting people out. And we always get paid (not much mind you). We don't play very often (every two to three months we'll do a show). So when we do play, our friends and family like to come out. It is a good excuse to leave the kids at home and have a fun evening out!
It took us years to get to the point where we can book weekend shows at major clubs around Toronto. We had to prove ourselves to promoters and clubs (that we could play, and that we could draw).
It is my humble opionion that if you can't get paying gig's, I suggest you blame someone other than the bar owners 
Now this whole "pay to play" thing is something completely different! There are a lot of shady promotion companies around that prey on young star'y eyed people! You know, where they make the band pre-sell 50 tickets at $15 a pop. And in return the band gets a 20 minute time slot on a bill with 8 other bands. And none of the bands get a cut of the money (ala Supernova etc... too many to name)!
We get approached by these companies all the time. Needless to say, we don't even reply to the emails.


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## keefsdad

I don't see anything wrong with playing for free if it's a benefit for a good cause, or you are opening for a major act that will get you exposure. other than that, i don't think it does the business any good, and my last experience doing it was terrible. That being said the market is tough, for the average player, so it's not an easy decision to make, sometimes. Hopefully we can at least resist the "pay to play" stuff that some clubs are trying now. That I find offensive.


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## david henman

allthumbs56 said:


> Interesting, that. I guess the bottom line is that you get what you pay for.




...i think i get what you're trying to say here, but it is misguided.

i have witnessed some astounding, soul-shaking performances, in which no money changed hands.


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## david henman

...there is one crucial distinction that needs to be made, one that i have seen over and over again on facebook, and one that is almost always misunderstood and misinterpreted.

that is the distinction between being ASKED to play for free, and being EXPECTED to play for free.

no performer should EVER be EXPECTED to play for free.


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