# Apparently I am not practicing, are you?



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

So I have decided this is the year that I want to learn to shred. I have always loved neo-classical, ridiculous fantasy metal guitar. I think there is a place in my heart forever for it. Now I want to emulate it.

I sat down to see what it is that I know, turns out it isn't a lot. Turns out all the playing I have been doing isn't actually useful at all as far as practice goes, sure it is fun, familiar and I get a song or 3 out of it, but I don't think it is making me a better player. Not even better at the things I already know how to do.

As much as I thought I was practicing turns out I think I was wrong. 

I have turned my attention to boring, mundane finger exercises. 
Chromatic Scale, alternate picking
Index Finger/ring finger alternations (holy hell I didn't realize how badly I have no control on these fingers)
Proper Hand placement, I am as sloppy as a 2 cent hooker

Everything is geared to proper finger placement and building speed, outside of the riffs and licks that a person knows. 

I have discovered some very obvious faults in my playing. While I can nail a lot of note placements with my "technique" we will call it, what I have noticed is that when forcing myself out of that comfort, I have very poor habits. 

I know I have mentioned it before, but I can only equate it to my typing skill. It is possible to excel outside of proper methods, but I think I would benefit from learning properly. It never is too late to break old habits even if it is harder. Practice will make me better, expecially practicing the things I know have been out of sight for a long time. 

What have you noticed, in your own play style that that you might want to improve??


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Brunz said:


> What have you noticed, in your own play style that that you might want to improve??


when i watch people who can really play well technically - Andy Summers, Tosin Abasi, Satriani/Vai/Malmsteen, Molly Tuttle, and number of good classical players ... lots of others ... they are super relaxed, especially in the wrists and shoulders but also, oddly, in the face and neck

that's my area that needs work. i get into what i'm playing or nervous or try hard in practice and tighten up and the playing gets worse

i need to work on fingering and learning specific pieces note for note as well, but with that relaxation speed built in not reverse engineered later

j


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> but with that relaxation speed built in not reverse engineered later


Right there my friend, right there is the exact key to what I am talking about. Glad you could say it better than I could. That total, effortless relaxation that comes from mastery is something to behold.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Taste and ability to listen is a vast territory to navigate. Your ears are instantaneous, and your taste is something that cannot be taught or imparted to you by anyone else. If you can listen actively, you can react to the music at an instant. If your hands are well trained and you can listen closely, then you will have much to say musically. To simply regurgitate by rote will not get you there because memory will fail you and that is too much thinking to do when playing. The reason those people are relaxed is because they are not hindered by their need to make thoughtful decisions...they know their way around chords and chord changes and much else is the providence of an improvising musician.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Well, I guess you are ready to find an educated pro to help your technical ability. I did it quite (too !) late at sixty-two years old but it revealed to be quite rewarding anyway !  I wished I had done the move as soon as I heard the fingerstyle appeal some fifteen years earlier since bad habits are even harder to beat as they stood for a long time !  My teacher was a more than twenty years experienced pro that would accompany me from where I were to where I thought I wanted to go. He helped me correct basic flaws and we discussed so many things besides the mandatory mainstream I wanted to follow. He was so friendly ! The pandemic unfortunately stopped my journey, but my guitar playing was already fueled again !


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I barely practice.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Budda said:


> I barely practice.


I'm stuck in that ugly middling guitar guy thing where I can get by quite well but to really break out into legit status, it is time to polish. At least that is what I think 

Identifying your weakness is much harder than exhibiting your strengths.

The worst part is I use to teach guitar and what did I say over and again?
You just need to practice more lol


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Brunz said:


> I'm stuck in that ugly middling guitar guy thing where I can get by quite well but to really break out into legit status, it is time to polish. At least that is what I think
> 
> Identifying your weakness is much harder than exhibiting your strengths.
> 
> ...


so long as you dont need to practice what you’re teaching .

if i was gonna learn sweep picking, I would have by now.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

it's not enough to simply know how to perform techniques cleanly. You cannot make great music out of technical "devices" like sweep picking or trills. This could be my personal taste speaking. Its best to know in which way those "devices" are part of the whole. Besides, 95% of players tend to nail down all those musical devices and 100% of them are on youtube telling you how to "break out of scales" and showing you "exotic chords". If you learn to feed your ear the sounds you want to hear (and do so very slowly) you will naturally graduate beyond the physical grips/stretches scales etc. It will happen as soon as you are too bored to do it again, but you have to do it again because you need to renew the sense of value in these things. And at the end of the day It's better to practice poorly than not at all, and to do so humbly is an utmost challenge. It will accumulate, but don't shirk the struggle because its not supposed to be _easy, _it's supposed to be *simple*.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Are there a couple of tunes you've wanted to play in the neoclassical/shred style that you think you can manage fairly effectively? Maybe pick a tune that's close to your wheel house that push's certain technical, positioning, and theoretical boundaries for you. You already know what you're good at so maybe start expanding from there. 

Gonna be a bit of work though. But you already knew that.


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## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

Repetition is key, but don't waste time practicing non-musical ideas for the sake of technique. You can practice technique, timing, tone, and musicality all at once. 

Use etudes to build chops, or focus on transcribing and mastering a solo.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

I’ve already peaked and am on the the downslope. My hands can’t do what I tell them anymore due to carpal tunnel surgery, messed up tendons and the beginning of arthritis. I’m still practicing scales a couple times a week, but I’m using the time I have to concentrate on creativity and songwriting.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

If you put in the time daily, hour after hour month after month, year after year, that whole relaxed thing will develop along with your skills.

Break you practice down into theory, scales etc, but don't forget about learning songs. Spend time daily on building your repertoire.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Dorian2 said:


> Are there a couple of tunes you've wanted to play in the neoclassical/shred style that you think you can manage fairly effectively? Maybe pick a tune that's close to your wheel house that push's certain technical, positioning, and theoretical boundaries for you. You already know what you're good at so maybe start expanding from there.
> 
> Gonna be a bit of work though. But you already knew that.


I have decided that practicing technique is not really my end goal..
Learning to play all 7:42 seconds of suicide solution from Tribute is, so maybe I just do that instead. If I can get that figured, can't be much else I would want to learn from finger position 🤣


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

I did this back in high school, and I did tons of chromatics and hand strengthening exercises. I would sit watching TV, just doing exercises. I tned everything up a step to make things harder. When I was done, I could fly, but I couldn't do much else.

Now I am 50, have two young kids, and no time to play. Given a few months, I could get some of it back, but never all.

That said, look up the spider walk. Ben Eller does a great video on it.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Rollin Hand said:


> I did this back in high school, and I did tons of chromatics and hand strengthening exercises. I would sit watching TV, just doing exercises. I tned everything up a step to make things harder. When I was done, I could fly, but I couldn't do much else.
> 
> Now I am 50, have two young kids, and no time to play. Given a few months, I could get some of it back, but never all.
> 
> That said, look up the spider walk. Ben Eller does a great video on it.


I watched that and it is a phenomenal exercise, one of the many reasons I discovered I am an idiot to be honest. I can play so many things but fundamental little hand skills like that elude me, I assume because I have had no practical reason to attempt them and therefore have not developed the memory to do it?? I don't know, but I do know that spending some time with it is a thing to be learned


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Interesting thread. The title of it makes me wonder about certain professional musicians and whether they "practice" or not? Maybe enthusiastc amateurs (like most of us here) are putting undue pressure on ourselves. Does Keith Richards do scales or aim for greater dexterity? Does Clapton even do that (anymore)? Did Jimmy Page or Hendrix do scales/exercises? That's an honest question by the way. What about a guy like Kevin Shields who pretty much sees his guitar as a "tone generator" to go through a bunch of pedals? I have dabbled in technique myself, and can definitetly see the value, but I am always more pulled toward song composition and sounds then dazzling anyone through solos. But I know this is very genre-specific.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Brunz said:


> I have decided that practicing technique is not really my end goal..
> Learning to play all 7:42 seconds of suicide solution from Tribute is, so maybe I just do that instead. If I can get that figured, can't be much else I would want to learn from finger position 🤣


I don't think practicing technique should be an end goal for playing. I think it's important to mention technique when dealing with a player like RR though. Just by practicing and learning Suicide Solution you'll end up practicing a shit ton of technique anyways. Just to get those parts right. Go for it man.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

isoneedacoffee said:


> Interesting thread. The title of it makes me wonder about certain professional musicians and whether they "practice" or not? Maybe enthusiastc amateurs (like most of us here) are putting undue pressure on ourselves. Does Keith Richards do scales or aim for greater dexterity? Does Clapton even do that (anymore)? Did Jimmy Page or Hendrix do scales/exercises? That's an honest question by the way. What about a guy like Kevin Shields who pretty much sees his guitar as a "tone generator" to go through a bunch of pedals? I have dabbled in technique myself, and can definitetly see the value, but I am always more pulled toward song composition and sounds then dazzling anyone through solos. But I know this is very genre-specific.


I know RR practiced to no end, I know a lot of players did. What no one wants to admit openly is that no one wakes up one day and is a virtuoso. It is nice to think that somehow others have more natural ability and that is what limits us, but I cannot help but think it is a lack of putting in the real practice. Learning songs and the like is a good way to practice, and I know it counts, but there is something to be said about getting down to the proper brass tacks of technique, outside of theory. 

No one wants to run finger exercises, or alternate picking/string patterns or triple octave chromatic scales or tetrads all day, but it sure builds a familiarity I do not know how to get any other way. Then you can turn around and take all of that technique, combine it with some theory and let loose the creativity that is inside. 

I think it was Roger Waters who said something along the lines of "you can't just give any bozo all this gear and expect them to make something magical with it" basically in response to a query that they "hide" behind all their gear. I bet those guys played a shit ton of scales all day long, until they didn't any more 

At a certain point and in a certain way, every guitar player has practiced these things, it is simply a matter of dedicated practice or osmosis from learning other pieces.... or maybe I am wrong, I have been wrong before.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

I think practicing runs will only make you faster on the toilet, and music has nothing to do with it. Once again, it comes back to having an ear and preparedness for different musical situations...unless you plan on being the most post-modern hipster this side of Andy Warhol. Music is about tapping into and treating each situation with care and craft. Music doesn't have to be fast. Music has to move like it's alive. I know that's an extreme view, but there's a reason that only a half dozen people listen to grindcore and why classical and jazz are still considered holy grail material. Anyway, there are many ways to achieve your peak performance in whatever you choose. 




 here's a favourite from me to you @Brunz


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

mrmatt1972 said:


> I’ve already peaked and am on the the downslope. My hands can’t do what I tell them anymore due to carpal tunnel surgery, messed up tendons and the beginning of arthritis. I’m still practicing scales a couple times a week, but I’m using the time I have to concentrate on creativity and songwriting.


I'm 66 and in pretty good shape so far. My objective is to keep getting better until I start getting worse.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

I was told about a fusion jazz guy (I forget his name but he's famous) would practice 4 hours before his gigs in his hotel room.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

John Fahey on practicing:


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Itzhak Perlman said he practices for about 15 minutes a day in his hotel room.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

I kinda like technique work. To me, it's meditative. It's easier than the practicing where I have to use my brain. Although it's more important for me to work on the musical stuff, I try to make a point of practicing technique once or twice a week.

There are a couple of things that have helped me get my technique to a better place in the past few years.

Work on the fretting hand - it's where the smoothness happens. It's how you can make notes sound connected rather than overly staccato or disjointed. Even if you don't consider yourself a legato player, it's worth it to strengthen your fretting hand. Practicing legato stuff slowly, connected and cleanly (with a metronome) will do a lot to improve your playing. It also helps to develop time in your fretting hand as well as your picking hand. That way, your fretting hand can do some of the leading and connecting, instead of waiting for your picking hand to initiate everything.

Developing picking hand speed - you may have to re-think your grip. I did after I watched this old Guthrie Govan video. It took a bit of time to get comfortable, but now it's second nature. And I'm more relaxed when picking than I've ever been. (I think this is the fifth time I've posted this video here, lol...)





These are sort of the raw physical aspects of technique (well, at least with a pick). It takes a good amount of time up front to get it to a comfortable place. Afterwards, it's more upkeep and application. You definitely want to be working on musical ideas and things that you can apply. The music dictates what you need to work on.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> Music doesn't have to be fast. Music has to move like it's alive


Sure this is a true statement, but you do not wake up one day with some innate talent that you can draw from to feel the music... you need the skill involved to be able to draw from first. 

I would love to just pick up my guitar and Jeff Beck the shit out of it, but I am not that good, nor will I be if I just sit around all day and dream of being able to do these thing


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Brunz said:


> effortless relaxation that comes from mastery


See right there is where I have usually assumed the same thing but I think the actual situation is the other way around

You don't master a skill and then relax into it. You relax into the process which lets you learn and improve faster and more effectively

j


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> Music doesn't have to be fast. Music has to move like it's alive


what he wants to do is shred like paganini and there's plenty of history to go with that goal

i think sometimes especially with guitar players because we stand facing the audience there gets to be a sort of demonstrative aspect to playing that gets in the way of the music if we think about them in the wrong order. It feels like the angst or passion or conviction or commitment or intensity needs to show in our face, movement or how much we're sweating PLUS we also need to play the instrument. The playing becomes secondary to demonstrating how passionate we are about playing. 

backwards

he needs to relax into his playing and then do it until it flows out of him like water as naturally as saying words or walking across the room. then if he wants to get fast he'll get fast already. 

j


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> he needs to relax into his playing and then do it until it flows out of him like water as naturally as saying words or walking across the room. then if he wants to get fast he'll get fast already.


I would have to disagree with you on a personal level. While I do like the sentiment with your statement, I have no failing _*Feeling *_the guitar. It literally shuts my brain off and shit happens, that is mostly what I like about it. 

What I am alluding to, forget shreading.... that is a secondary function, is the ability to find the ability to do the things that you feel. For lack of a better way of explaining it. 

Speaking of a better way of expressing it, apparently I need to work on my linguistic skills as well as I cannot seem to convey my point in just practicing the technical aspects of the instrument. No matter how many ways one shakes the tree, there is a certain amount of ability required to make the instrument work. It isn't like I can be passionate about cars and then go an build an engine, believe me, I tried


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## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

I’ve never been one for scales, and seem to learn more from watching other players.

I would say these days a chunk of my practice, is listening to music and training my ears and brain to pick up on what’s going on in a song. When I stumble into a lick or techniques I want to learn, I’ll usually do some recon on YouTube looking at concert footage so I can see things like hand position, chord transition, little fills etc. That’s usually enough info to get exploring, and more often than not, when I’m relaxed and noodling, I instinctively end up unlocking little gems or figuring out things I didn’t intend to.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Brunz said:


> Sure this is a true statement, but you do not wake up one day with some innate talent that you can draw from to feel the music... you need the skill involved to be able to draw from first.
> 
> I would love to just pick up my guitar and Jeff Beck the shit out of it, but I am not that good, nor will I be if I just sit around all day and dream of being able to do these thing


Jeff Beck ain't that good either. This is where we come back to your ear holes and their eventual attachment to your brain box and other peripherals. Either there is a lot more mystical wavy gravy magic going on in that "Beck" sound, or you simply don't understand what it is he's doing. He's not an astrophysicist, he's an emaciated ghoul who publicly abuses a guitar in front of an audience.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> Jeff Beck ain't that good either


If we are setting the bar at "Jeff Beck ain't that good" then I sir, am fucked


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> what he wants to do is shred like paganini and there's plenty of history to go with that goal
> 
> i think sometimes especially with guitar players because we stand facing the audience there gets to be a sort of demonstrative aspect to playing that gets in the way of the music if we think about them in the wrong order. It feels like the angst or passion or conviction or commitment or intensity needs to show in our face, movement or how much we're sweating PLUS we also need to play the instrument. The playing becomes secondary to demonstrating how passionate we are about playing.
> 
> ...


It is like that, we cannot separate from our ego and our internal monitoring system. There's a portion of our brain that needs to get with the program when we play; it's an executive conscience that monitors each and every discomfort or nagging sensation we might feel. Warming up is essential too, something I guess we're missing in this discussion. Warming-up is essential to feeling like you're able to play at your peak. But I guess what I was trying to say originally is that music consists of contrasting situations and elements that all require their due. I think that mechanical precision is a byproduct of dedicating yourself to learning and knowing the instrument and it's not the goal itself. After all, precision is finite, but music itself is a living document that is renewed by time and dedication...it keeps going far beyond our lifetime.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Brunz said:


> If we are setting the bar at "Jeff Beck ain't that good" then I sir, am fucked


People are incredible learners and there is no ceiling to one's ability to adapt. The process has to be all-encompassing and involve the faculties of your body. For example, singing the notes allows you to remember and store your own impressions much better than simply playing notes mechanically. You can play a note and sing a harmony note at same time, thereby exploring the qualities of different harmonies...they all have their own unique vibrations (perfect intervals feel more parallel and less oscillating than imperfect intervals). This will help you to listen to yourself and to feel the music too.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

I think it was Buddy Guy I heard being interviewed several years ago who said, “I’ve never practiced in my life. I just get out there and play”.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> precision is finite, but music itself is a living document


the other thing is there's not that much expected musical literacy

i can walk up to the front of a room, say a few words of welcome, read some announcements, then play a piece of music. 

nobody says wow that guy sure can walk well
nobody says wow he made really moving introductory comments and right off the top of his head too!
nobody says that's amazing how he could read all those words written down on a paper
but being able to play the music is a performance worthy skill

i've never once been asked to give a walking demonstration because in our culture we expect people to be proficient at walking but it's a novelty when somebody gets to be proficient playing an instrument so really I don't need to be very good at it in order to get some recognition. 

j


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Back in high skool there was a part in Space Truckin that I had to practice a bit because there was a triad that I had to run up the neck and I had to play it a bunch of times so I'd learn it and land on the right frets. Other than that not so much of what could be called practice; I just play a lot every day.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

I'm at a stage in my guitar playing- and to some degree, life- where I realize I must accept certain physical limitations, as well as being honest with myself about what type of playing is at the core of my inner artist. 
With guitar playing it's more about accepting that, after nearly five decades of trying to "master" the instrument, I will never shred or learn to sweep pick. It's not in me to do it- I don't even use a pick. I admit also that I have little desire to hear myself shred- which is probably why I can't do it. 
There is definitely something to get to as far as feeling relaxed and connected to the instrument though. At this point I'm quite comfortable with what I have to offer as a guitar player and creative person. In analysis of my own playing I always just ask myself "would I like to listen to this?" Of course it helps if what you want to hear from yourself does not have a high degree of physical demand. 
My one pitfall on the practice front is that, after all these years of playing, I have very little in the way of solo repertoire. I can play endlessly, make up parts for original music projects, craft a solo easily, improv my way around almost anything but I have never been one to develop a strong repertoire of pieces- be it jazz standards or camp fire tunes. I'm pretty ADHD as far as that goes I guess.

I periodically take a dive into some theory or take a jazz tune and have fun exploring the chords and melody. It's that two steps forward one step back thing that seems to be a universal truth about any skill or knowledge one tries to acquire. 

Anyway, probably none of that will help you shred. 😆 We all have our own struggles when it comes to producing results.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Brunz said:


> the ability to find the ability to do the things that you feel


whoa ... there's some good brownies in circulation this evening i think

i went off on the walking analogy just now to mutant g so here goes again

when i was a little kid and felt like getting a cookie i tottered to my feet, tipped back and forward, staggered across the room, and if i was lucky i made it all the way to where the cookie was and ate it. my mommy said wow lil sketchy jeff that's some good walking! good for you! 

since then i've practiced walking a lot. so much that i don't even think about it. when i feel like getting a cookie i go get it without considering the technical skills involved and nobody congratulates me on them because they're completely incorporated into what i usually do every day. 

the ability to find the ability comes when you're so f'n practiced up at using the technical skill that you don't even think about it you just do the thing you feel without needing to concentrate on the technique of doing it. 

j


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

zztomato said:


> My one pitfall on the practice front is that, after all these years of playing, I have very little in the way of solo repertoire. I can play endlessly, make up parts for original music projects, craft a solo easily, improv my way around almost anything but I have never been one to develop a strong repertoire of pieces


In this my friend, you are not alone. I don't know a single song start to finish, I also go all ADHD on that stuff 

but it isn't about shredding!!! In fact, it actually has nothing to do with it. I should have never made that statement as part of the initial query 

@zztomato I have heard some of the things you do, on various occasions, you have a very fluid style of fingerpicking that I enjoy a lot, but I am going to assume you did not just wake up with this ability. If you do not mind, seeing as I have personally heard you play, care to at all express how about you came to this styling? You admittedly aren't song friendly, so it did not come about that way. There must be some level of practice you have done, or could express to explain how you got there.




Sketchy Jeff said:


> the ability to find the ability comes when you're so f'n practiced up at using the technical skill that you don't even think about


But you had to practice it to get there. My kid is learning to walk, she isn't getting any better at it because she won't go any more than she is comfortable with so she just sits back down. I don't want to just sit back down as a guitar player.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

"There's no easy way out. There's no short cut home... " 😆


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

For those of us who would rather read about practice than practice, this is a good place to start. (It will also help you make better use of your practice time, if that is a goal.):


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

Brunz said:


> @zztomato I have heard some of the things you do, on various occasions, you have a very fluid style of fingerpicking that I enjoy a lot, but I am going to assume you did not just wake up with this ability. If you do not mind, seeing as I have personally heard you play, care to at all express how about you came to this styling? You admittedly aren't song friendly, so it did not come about that way. There must be some level of practice you have done, or could express to explain how you got there.


Oh that's cool- I don't get out to play much these days. Have you seen me play with Gerry Wall and band or maybe at Irene's?

Anyway, that style of finger picking developed from both interest and necessity. After a few years of playing I got into learning repetitive finger picking patterns and also just liked players like Lindsay Buckingham and Knopfler and Jeff Beck. One day I was hit by a car riding my bike and badly broke my right wrist. I could never really get back the ability to hold a pick and get the wrist action back so I largely just went with the fingers. Kind of a gift in a way because I developed a unique way to be more expressive with the strings. At this point- 40 years later- I don't even think about it. My right hand just sits on the strings and when a note comes up that needs to be played, it happens. The practice part of all that happened a long time ago. That said, I still noodle a lot and sometimes with purpose. I try to be able to recreate what I hear in my head on the fly in real time. That's sort of a mix of past theory knowledge and the practical side of finding intervals on the fretboard. Eventuality it all kind of blends together. I've always been an ear trained player though. I think that is a critical part of practice that many don't develop due to the availability of tab and direct visual cues from youtube etc.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

There are 4 kinds of chords and 12 tones in western music. Taxonomically speaking this is simpler than our alphabet. Those tones populate those chords, and so too form the criteria for what could be played against one another. Once you are familiar enough with that concept you can choose how fast or how slow you want to get from point to point, and how much or how little to embellish your movement. The primary thing is to feed your ears those sounds/situations steadily and *slowly*. Speed and proficiency comes from economy of movement (by extension, economy of thought), in order to economize your movement you have to *know*. The only thing is consonance and dissonance, and how you choose to navigate those in the music. If you don't want to choose, then the instrument dictates what you'll hear more than you do.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

zztomato said:


> Oh that's cool- I don't get out to play much these days. Have you seen me play with Gerry Wall and band or maybe at Irene's?
> 
> Anyway, that style of finger picking developed from both interest and necessity. After a few years of playing I got into learning repetitive finger picking patterns and also just liked players like Lindsay Buckingham and Knopfler and Jeff Beck. One day I was hit by a car riding my bike and badly broke my right wrist. I could never really get back the ability to hold a pick and get the wrist action back so I largely just went with the fingers. Kind of a gift in a way because I developed a unique way to be more expressive with the strings. At this point- 40 years later- I don't even think about it. My right hand just sits on the strings and when a note comes up that needs to be played, it happens. The practice part of all that happened a long time ago. That said, I still noodle a lot and sometimes with purpose. I try to be able to recreate what I hear in my head on the fly in real time. That's sort of a mix of past theory knowledge and the practical side of finding intervals on the fretboard. Eventuality it all kind of blends together. I've always been an ear trained player though. I think that is a critical part of practice that many don't develop due to the availability of tab and direct visual cues from youtube etc.


I just had the pleasure of listening to a few of your audio clips on here is what I meant 

Thanks for the fill in though. 

It is odd how one develops ability out of adversity. I must say I find it strange you could not hold a pick but still maintained the dexterity to finger pick.

My father lost his ring finger on his left hand and it drastically changed his style but he still managed to impress.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Brunz said:


> you had to practice it to get there


some of that was practicing performance by doing it poorly and then a bit less poorly and also playing together with other musicians and sometimes playing music i don't like because playing is better than not playing

i remember my kids learning to walk just like you described yours. my wife used to plop them down on the opposite side of the room from the stuffy or snack they wanted. some crying and shouting but it was motivation to get up off their butts and make their way over there to get the thing

this whole discussion is funny in that it's about your desire to get into neoclassical shredding. i couldn't shred to save my life

j


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

Brunz said:


> I just had the pleasure of listening to a few of your audio clips on here is what I meant
> 
> Thanks for the fill in though.
> 
> ...


Weird, I don't recall ever posting any clips here- I could be wrong though. 

I could still hold a pick. What I lost was the wrist action needed to make picking smooth. In fact, I occasionally still try to use a pick but it feels like a foreign invader and I put it down.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

zztomato said:


> Weird, I don't recall ever posting any clips here- I could be wrong though.
> 
> I could still hold a pick. What I lost was the wrist action needed to make picking smooth. In fact, I occasionally still try to use a pick but it feels like a foreign invader and I put it down.


I am probably mistaken and it wasn't you  I have the memory of a... uh, well, I cannot remember.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

Whenever a thread comes around about "practice" I always chime in the same thing. I intend to practice, but I end up just noodling. 

If you sat across from me and heard me do that for the very first time, you'd (probably) think I was pretty good. But, the _next_ time you saw me, it wouldn't be much different.... and then, and then... 

@Rollin Hand mentioned Ben Eller... maybe someone else did too... either way, his speed and practice vids are about the best I've seen. Two summers ago I rekindled my love of Thrash Metal. His Metallica (and cohort) lessons were a great tool. 
I stumbled upon a speed exercise I did that I recorded with my phone back then (2 years ago) and I am no where near that fast and proficient anymore. I stopped playing it, and have lost it. I could get it back, but man it was humbling.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Brunz said:


> I watched that and it is a phenomenal exercise, one of the many reasons I discovered I am an idiot to be honest. I can play so many things but fundamental little hand skills like that elude me, I assume because I have had no practical reason to attempt them and therefore have not developed the memory to do it?? I don't know, but I do know that spending some time with it is a thing to be learned


That's no fundamental hand exercise, in my view. That's bloody hard. 

I did the very chromatics he mentioned forever -- if I can do it, that's a fundamental hand exercise.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

SWLABR said:


> Whenever a thread comes around about "practice" I always chime in the same thing. I intend to practice, but I end up just noodling.
> 
> If you sat across from me and heard me do that for the very first time, you'd (probably) think I was pretty good. But, the _next_ time you saw me, it wouldn't be much different.... and then, and then...
> 
> ...


Eller seems good to me, though I don't have time to delve too much into his lessons. Having seen his posts on sevenstring.org, he seems like a decent guy who genuinely wants to share things he's learned.

Another good teacher is Steve Stine, who is also on YouTube.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

zztomato said:


> Weird, I don't recall ever posting any clips here- I could be wrong though.
> 
> I could still hold a pick. What I lost was the wrist action needed to make picking smooth. In fact, I occasionally still try to use a pick but it feels like a foreign invader and I put it down.


Have you tried your hand at "hybrid picking"?


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

Rollin Hand said:


> Eller seems good to me, though I don't have time to delve too much into his lessons. Having seen his posts on sevenstring.org, he seems like a decent guy who genuinely wants to share things he's learned.


I think he's a good teacher. I'm sure many would say he isn't, but what he says makes sense to me, and I also find him (I might be in the minority in thinking) he's kinda funny. He makes a point to turn theoretical lessons onto real world applications. Scales aren't cool. If you use them in a solo in a song, they sound like practice. Because he's so versed, he can say "do this, and it won't sound like you're just ripping on scales in your solo".


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> Have you tried your hand at "hybrid picking"?


Yes, many times. That is the ultimate technique to use, IMO. The problem for me is that it would require abandoning a technique that has served me well enough for 40 years. So while, yes, it is a "better" technique, it is likely not better for _me_ at this stage in life. That gets back to accepting (or embracing) one's limitations.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Brunz said:


> So I have decided this is the year that I want to learn to shred. I have always loved neo-classical, ridiculous fantasy metal guitar. I think there is a place in my heart forever for it. Now I want to emulate it.
> 
> I sat down to see what it is that I know, turns out it isn't a lot. Turns out all the playing I have been doing isn't actually useful at all as far as practice goes, sure it is fun, familiar and I get a song or 3 out of it, but I don't think it is making me a better player. Not even better at the things I already know how to do.
> 
> ...


I play in a cover band so the majority of my practice time is spend perfecting the 30 or so songs in our setlist. I'm like you though, I'd like to be able to play single notes faster and with more accuracy. So, I started a warm-up routine that is called the spider crawl. I spend 5 to 10 min on this each day and as a result, I've noticed I can pick out the individual strings with much more accuracy and my speed and improved a little bit.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

zztomato said:


> Yes, many times. That is the ultimate technique to use, IMO. The problem for me is that it would require abandoning a technique that has served me well enough for 40 years. So while, yes, it is a "better" technique, it is likely not better for _me_ at this stage in life. That gets back to accepting (or embracing) one's limitations.


I feel that. I had played for about 15 years keeping the pick and the fingers completely separate in my repertoire. I started learning Jazz guitar about a year ago and my teacher recommended that I "try" hybrid picking...I've been "trying" it ever since and in many ways it feels like I've only been playing a year.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

Wardo said:


> Itzhak Perlman said he practices for about 15 minutes a day in his hotel room.


Either he got his practice in years ago and depends on performances to keep his chops up or he's blowing smoke to hobble the competition.

When you are not practicing, remember, someone somewhere is practicing, and when you meet him he will win. _Ed Macauley_


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

A strange phenomenon that I find not that strange thanks to "science yo" is how much you learn when you sleep. I can almost guarantee and the knuckle dragging from yesterday will be vastly improved when I finally get home tonight to play again. Mornings are rough because mine is at 4:30 and I know for a fact tje wife and kids will murder me if I start playing then 

Anyone else notice how your brain reorganizes after nappy time?


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

always sleep on it. Rest the blinkers. Eye-hand coordination is paramount to making position changes on the guitar, and one is always aware of the tip of their index finger. The more tired you are the more bio-propagation delay you will experience.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Doug Gifford said:


> Either he got his practice in years ago and depends on performances to keep his chops up ........


_Perlman first became interested in the violin after hearing a classical music performance on the radio. At the age of three, he was denied admission to the Shulamit Conservatory for being too small to hold a violin. He instead taught himself how to play the instrument using a toy fiddle until he was old enough to study with Rivka Goldgart at the Shulamit Conservatory and at the Academy of Music in Tel Aviv (now the Buchmann-Mehta School of Music), where he gave his first recital at age 10. He moved to the U.S. at age 13 to study at the Juilliard School with the violin teacher Ivan Galamian and his assistant Dorothy DeLay._

Yeah, Perlman started early and "hotel room" probably means on the road and playing with a symphony orchestra every night.

Friend of mine, his father played with the toronto symphony. We used to jam in their barn. The old man didn't practice all that much; used to see him in the living room puffing a few notes on his horn but according to his son there wasn't much more to it than that.


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