# Holy Fucked in BC



## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

Metro Vancouver gas prices set to top North American record


West Coast supply problems are leading to record gas prices in Vancouver, says one expert.




www.vancouverisawesome.com




Don't you buggers complain about the price of gas back east. Every freakin year we hear the same BS that they are doing maintenance on the line out west here and that there is a shortage of oil ( BS )
And we are paying the highest gas taxes anywhere in the world over $.76/ litre. Screwed by our own provincial G. with no relief on those taxes.
Can any one understand why its always the line crap that we are maintaining during summer on refineries when they could actually do it all year around. more BS to CHARGE MORE so highest profits along the west coast.is all I hear.
And they say prices will rise again tomorrow, some are saying over $2.60 before it comes down.
In case any body hasn't notices BC is not Shangri-la and our streets are not paved in gold.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

That 40 cent over night bump was a real punch in the face. Looking forward to 3 dollar a litre 91. Oh goodie.


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

Apparently there is only 55 years of oil left on the planet.


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## Arek (Jan 24, 2009)

Ship of fools said:


> Metro Vancouver gas prices set to top North American record
> 
> 
> West Coast supply problems are leading to record gas prices in Vancouver, says one expert.
> ...


Keep voting for Liberals and NDP = pay more carbon taxes, block pipelines and oil sands development, pollute earth buying Venezuelan and Saudi oil…= pay more for everything.


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## Percy (Feb 18, 2013)

Gas prices are high because it ain't cheap buying gas from Dictators !


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## guitardoug1235 (5 mo ago)

Mark Brown said:


> That 40 cent over night bump was a real punch in the face. Looking forward to 3 dollar a litre 91. Oh goodie.
> [/QUOTE
> 
> No wonder there was a huge increase in the sale of e-bikes this summer here in Vancouver.
> ...


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Thunderboy1975 said:


> Apparently there is only 55 years of oil left on the planet.


I remember all the experts saying that 50 years ago.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Sneaky said:


> I remember all the experts saying that 50 years ago.


It was true....!
Then we found some more.


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## DavidP (Mar 7, 2006)

Nice to know that we're #1 in North America, eh!! 
What a dubious distinction -- that's the price you pay for living in lotus land/left coast...
Better pump up the bicycle tires today!


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Gasoline as a primary source of fuel for transportation is not viable in perpetuity. Putting your head in the sand and hoping gas prices will "come back down again" and getting angry at the government of the day is foolish.

Looks like I picked a good time to buy a plug in hybrid.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

It's a war on cars in BC, IMO - not just gas powered cars either - general person mobility unless it's transit, walking or bikes like in China. They're slowly starting to frown upon EVs too.

Local and provincial governments seem to have a vendetta against personal transportation solutions other than those stated - they loved it when we were locked down, they want it again. People around here just keep paying the higher gas rates b/c we have no choice, we gotta get around.


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## Percy (Feb 18, 2013)

Punishing North Americans because the Planet has periods of warming makes little to no sense ! 
If you wanna do your part , in the never ending 'Climate Crisis' , buy an electric car or stop driving and ride a bike !
Do not 'Tread on Me' !
The Crisis 40 years ago was 'Were all gonna Freeze' cause the next Ice Age is coming !
A broke clock is right twice a day but experts are wrong always !
Cheers !


!


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## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

Even Musk says globally we’ll need gas for another hundred years until battery technology has evolved.

Many people also seem to think EV’s will save the planet have no sense of how destructive mining lithium and other rare earth metals are, let alone manufacturing and disposal.

Then there’s the griid…electric generation, transmission and distribution networks need a radical evolution. I dare anybody to plug in 100,000 EV rapid chargers in the greater Toronto area tonight lol.

We need to make steps in the right direction away from traditional fuels, but going cold turkey will cause nothing but chaos.

Oh, and good luck with public transit, just ask the good citizens of Ottawa how their Uber modern, multi billion dollar transit system is working out…


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## Paul M (Mar 27, 2015)

Arek said:


> Keep voting for Liberals and NDP = pay more carbon taxes, block pipelines and oil sands development, pollute earth buying Venezuelan and Saudi oil…= pay more for everything.


Didn't the liberals BUY the trans mountain pipeline project to keep it alive?

There are plenty of reasons to dislike the current liberal government, there is no need to make things up.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Para's post should be a sticky, it's all true.

One thing that people don't mention (especially the media), is that burning fossil fuels is getting cleaner & cleaner. It is salvageable w/ time & technology and there's still plenty of it in the ground.


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## amp boy (Apr 23, 2009)

If you want the gas price to come down in BC, do what they did in South America.
Nobody went to work.

....but we're apathetic here, and public protest and action is wrong to the woke masses.

I'm starting to think a general white washing of society has been incrementally governed in over the last 40 years.

Hydrogen is a better way to go i think than this electric battery system. 
Especially since nuclear power, like diesel, is an accepted "bad" and not allowed to be seen for the evolvement that they are capable of.

The Wars or leverage applied...get ready for gifted implementation of democracy nation with natural resources we're interested in !!!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

When we lived in Victoria in the late '80s, our preschooler son had a Playmobil gas station. For archival purposes, we put the going gas price (regular, not premium) on the pumps. It was 53 cents a litre. But even then, Vancouver Island paid several cents more, per litre, than pretty much anywhere in Canada, except for maybe the far north.

People whine about the cost of fuel, but seem to think that:
a) parking on the street is free
b) building and maintaining streets is free
None of that is. It all comes out of the taxes people also whine about.
Certainly expensive gas has a much greater impact on Canadians than in many other places, simply because we're more spread out. Not just _between_ cities, but also _within_ cities. We insist on big houses on big properties, undisturbed by commercial zones, obliging us to drive great distances to do the sorts of things that residents in many cities around the world can do by walking or biking, as opposed to driving 20 minutes. Naturally, if it's gonna cost $5 in gas to go to the store for milk, eggs, and a head of lettuce, fuel prices are going to result in complaints. We need more intensification, like we see in so many Eurpean cities and the oldest North American cities. And none of this luxury condo nonsense, either, but modest homes and apartments that a _family_ can live in, and where you can send a 10 year-old to the store for bread, because it's only 2 blocks away.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> Looks like I picked a good time to buy a plug in hybrid.


Yeah I'd like to see how that goes if everybody tried that all at once.


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## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

FatStrat2 said:


> Para's post should be a sticky, it's all true.
> 
> One thing that people don't mention (especially the media), is that burning fossil fuels is getting cleaner & cleaner. It is salvageable w/ time & technology and there's still plenty of it in the ground.


It’s not just cleaner, it’s safer to transport, and can be stored longer. In addition, engine technology is vastly improved in even the last 20 years in terms of fuel efficiency and emission control.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

FatStrat2 said:


> It's a war on cars in BC, IMO - not just gas powered cars either - general person mobility unless it's transit, walking or bikes like in China. They're slowly starting to frown upon EVs too.
> 
> Local and provincial governments seem to have a vendetta against personal transportation solutions other than those stated - they loved it when we were locked down, they want it again. People around here just keep paying the higher gas rates b/c we have no choice, we gotta get around.





Percy said:


> Punishing North Americans because the Planet has periods of warming makes little to no sense !
> If you wanna do your part , in the never ending 'Climate Crisis' , buy an electric car or stop driving and ride a bike !
> Do not 'Tread on Me' !
> The Crisis 40 years ago was 'Were all gonna Freeze' cause the next Ice Age is coming !
> ...





FatStrat2 said:


> Para's post should be a sticky, it's all true.
> 
> One thing that people don't mention (especially the media), is that burning fossil fuels is getting cleaner & cleaner. It is salvageable w/ time & technology and there's still plenty of it in the ground.





Parabola said:


> It’s not just cleaner, it’s safer to transport, and can be stored longer. In addition, engine technology is vastly improved in even the last 20 years in terms of fuel efficiency and emission control.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

$1.38 last night at Costco in Ottawa. As long as the politicians have cheap gas, do they care what’s going on anywhere else??

I think Ford cut a gas tax a few months ago, and that’ll kick back in soon then it’ll be 😳


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

> Prius here I come!


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

The only hybrid plugin I can afford is one that plugs into my recording daw and is on sale for $29.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

What I get a kick out of is people trading in gas guzzlers and paying $10K on top to save $20 per week on gas.

Of course,we humans arean't the most rational beings. We'll spend $80k on a pickup to commute to our jobs downtown, then complain that gas costs too much.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Where I live there are more giant pickup trucks than any other vehicles. They drive them extra very slowly to conserve fuel. If you can't afford to drive your big gas guzzling vehicle...

Another weird thing where I live is ATV's are allowed to drive on the streets.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

player99 said:


> Where I live there are more giant pickup trucks than any other vehicles. They drive them extra very slowly to conserve fuel. If you can't afford to drive your big gas guzzling vehicle...
> 
> Another weird thing where I live is ATV's are allowed to drive on the streets.


Sounds a lot like Innisfil.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

B.C. stands for Bring Cash doesn't it?

Lots of pickup trucks in these parts, because, well, they're needed. I drive an F150 4X4 and USE the 4 wheel drive at times. The roads would beat the heck out of a car unless you stick to the main roads (and even then it's dicey). I can't afford 2 vehicles otherwise I would have something small and fuel efficient (or maybe even electric).

I just saw a story on a guy trying to buy a new Ford Lightning pick up truck. They're over $100k now so subject to the new luxury tax.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> B.C. stands for Bring Cash doesn't it?
> 
> Lots of pickup trucks in these parts, because, well, they're needed. I drive an F150 4X4 and USE the 4 wheel drive at times. The roads would beat the heck out of a car unless you stick to the main roads (and even then it's dicey). I can't afford 2 vehicles otherwise I would have something small and fuel efficient (or maybe even electric).
> 
> I just saw a story on a guy trying to buy a new Ford Lightning pick up truck. They're over $100k now so subject to the new luxury tax.


They start at $68,000. Yes, a Platinum will cost you over $100K, which is true of literally every make of truck right now.

And, since Ford sold out of them almost immediately, they can price them whatever they like apparently.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

I'm driving a Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid. It has about 50km of range on a full charge and then switches over to gas power when it needs to. With the exception of my road trip in July, I have been to the gas station once since I bought it in March.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> I'm driving a Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid. It has about 50km of range on a full charge and then switches over to gas power when it needs to. With the exception of my road trip in July, I have been to the gas station once since I bought it in March.


Is it a plug in?
Do you try to put fresh gas in once in while, or do you fill with premium so it doesn’t go bad?


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

tomee2 said:


> Is it a plug in?
> Do you try to put fresh gas in once in while, or do you fill with premium so it doesn’t go bad?


Roght now, a bottle of stabilizer would be cheaper than premium.


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## Arek (Jan 24, 2009)

Paul M said:


> Didn't the liberals BUY the trans mountain pipeline project to keep it alive?
> 
> There are plenty of reasons to dislike the current liberal government, there is no need to make things up.


So, how much gas (or oil) is that “alive” trans mountain pipeline transporting?

If Canada had its own oil, it would have been cheaper for us.
The oil however belongs to oil companies (once extracted) and they are selling it on global market.
That affects the prices due to speculation, middleman, politics etc.
The oil royalties should be offsetting its price for Canadians, but the big oil is greedy and politicians are serving them and so on.
On top of that we have woke Liberal government that follows WEF and its masterplan.

Bottom line - vote Conservatives next time. It’s lesser evil.


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

Sneaky said:


> I remember all the experts saying that 50 years ago.


I wasnt around 50 years ago but i believe you. 
Im sure they lauged and thought it couldnt be possible. 
If only Saddam didnt light the oil fields on fire it wouldnt be a issue. 
Oil companies are pulling out of the canadian market.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

What many proponents of the 'leave it in the ground' crowd don't realize (or don't want to) is all the nifty things that are made from petroleum products. Plastics being one. The whole world is made of plastic (don't settle for imitations).


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## danreid2727 (5 mo ago)




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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Arek said:


> Bottom line - vote Conservatives next time. It’s lesser evil.


If that's your logic can't wait to see how surprised you are when you go to retire at 65 and the CPP is gone.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

danreid2727 said:


>


I love that the thumbnail for that video has the stacks of a nuclear plant in the background - those emit steam not smoke.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> Is it a plug in?
> Do you try to put fresh gas in once in while, or do you fill with premium so it doesn’t go bad?


It's a plug in.

If you haven't put gas in it and the fuel hasn't been burned in a certain amount of time it will go into something called "Fuel and Oil Refresh Mode" where it runs the gas engine until it either uses up the fuel in the tank OR you put 24L of new gas in it.


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## Paul M (Mar 27, 2015)

Arek said:


> So, how much gas (or oil) is that “alive” trans mountain pipeline transporting?
> 
> If Canada had its own oil, it would have been cheaper for us.
> The oil however belongs to oil companies (once extracted) and they are selling it on global market.
> ...


It was the conservatives that privatized PetroCan. Trans Mountain 2 is blocked by lots of stakeholders, but none are the current federal liberal government. But to be clear.... you are 0 for 2 in blaming the curent federal government. Take off the tin foil and try harder.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Hmm .. politics. This should be entertaining. 😈 🤡


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## Paul M (Mar 27, 2015)

laristotle said:


> Hmm .. politics. This should be entertaining. 😈 🤡


Good point. I wasn't intending to be political, I was intending to challenge b.s.

Anyway, before I burn a bridge I might want to cross later.... I'm done in this thread.

Peace,

Paul


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Paul M said:


> It was the conservatives that privatized PetroCan. Trans Mountain 2 is blocked by lots of stakeholders, but none are the current federal liberal government. But to be clear.... you are 0 for 2 in blaming the curent federal government. Take off the tin foil and try harder.


But....but...but....Trudeau!

Seriously, if a Liberal leader named Koealchuk had done the exact same things throughout this timeframe, there wouldn't be the hatred. But, his dad did something 40 years ago, so...


We will still need oil for the forseeablr future. But evidence points to strong need to reduce emissions. Can we afford to be wrong on this?


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Paul M said:


> I'm done in this thread.


Don't back out yet. Something is sure to come up that'll make you think, 'I can't let that go unanswered'.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Robert Merasty: Ottawa’s oil and gas emissions cap will hurt Indigenous communities


The plan goes against the ideals of reconciliation and Indigenous rights




nationalpost.com





_The facts are clear. A majority of Indigenous people support oil and gas development, according to an Environics Research poll in June. This is because oil and gas development brings benefits to Indigenous communities such as royalties and employment. Even better, some First Nations have been successful in their pursuit of ownership in oil and gas projects which can lead to even more opportunities for our communities.

So why then would the government propose a policy that would wipe all of that away and take us a step back? On the one hand, the government says it supports Indigenous rights and self-determination for First Nations. On the other hand, the government turns around and says that it will introduce policies that will cancel projects that Indigenous communities have already made investments in. This would cap the opportunities for Indigenous communities who are pursuing ownership in projects and who are seeking control of own-source revenues generated by projects they own on their land.

For a government that is proud to stand up for Indigenous people and state that they support self-determination and then turn around and propose this emissions cap directly contradicts their statements. I want our future generations to live in a world where they have opportunities and are not stuck in the cycle of poverty.

Our communities are faced with a choice of poverty or the development of our natural resources. Responsible development in oil and gas provides our people hope and opportunity for the future. The government’s proposed cap on emissions takes away that opportunity and we are left without the option of developing our resources responsibly. _


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## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

Parabola said:


> Many people also seem to think EV’s will save the planet have no sense of how destructive mining lithium and other rare earth metals are, let alone manufacturing and disposal.


So much disinformation. Like oil mining is not destructive, has been for 100 years. Batteries are in their developing youth they will just get better and better. Disposal ? What disposal ? Today's batteries last for over 500k kilometers and within a few years will be 95% recyclable. Like ICE cars aren't disposed of ...



Parabola said:


> Then there’s the griid…electric generation, transmission and distribution networks need a radical evolution. I dare anybody to plug in 100,000 EV rapid chargers in the greater Toronto area tonight lol.


How many gas stations were there in the first 5-10 years of the ICE car ?



Arek said:


> Keep voting for Liberals and NDP = pay more carbon taxes, block pipelines and oil sands development, pollute earth buying Venezuelan and Saudi oil…= pay more for everything.


Says a Manitoban ...



Parabola said:


> It’s not just cleaner, it’s safer to transport, ...


Go tell that to the people from Lac Mégantic.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Arek said:


> Keep voting for Liberals and NDP = pay more carbon taxes, block pipelines and oil sands development, pollute earth buying Venezuelan and Saudi oil…= pay more for everything.


Funny, using this tool:









Inflation Calculator


Calculate how much the cost of a fixed "basket" of consumer purchases has changed, using monthly consumer price index (CPI) data from 1914 to now.




www.bankofcanada.ca





The cost of $100 worth of goods and services went up by roughly 1.7 percent annually, whereas between 2015 and 2020, it went up just under 1.5 percent. Interesting.

I am not counting 2021-22 (7 percent -- yikes!) because inflation during this period is clearly a global anomaly brought on by something you may have heard of called the global pandemic. Even if we count 2021, we get just over 1.9 percent, which isn't a massive jump and below the Bank of Canada's stated goal of 2 percent.

For what it's worth, the oil sands are only profitable when the price of oil is high enough to make the processing worth it. That means the companies develop when it is worth their money to do so. When gas is cheap, it doesn't work financially.

And you do realize that the US killed the biggest pipeline, right? Not the Canadian Government?


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> It's a plu
> 
> 
> Powdered Toast Man said:
> ...


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## evenon (Nov 13, 2006)

Rollin Hand said:


> For what it's worth, the oil sands are only profitable when the price of oil is high enough to make the processing worth it. That means the companies develop when it is worth their money to do so. When gas is cheap, it doesn't work financially.


Kearl production ~200,000 bbls/day is part of a fully integrated value stream primarily belonging to Exxon, it's not really elastic to the price of gasoline, certainly an impact but not the only factor. Energy logistics and marketing have multiple dimensions and not really all one dimension such as the price of gasoline.

Another consideration is heavy oil produced in the oil sands is mostly used for other fuels, plastics, petrochemicals, even to build roads. Not really used for gasoline much except for the product that is upgraded to synthetic crudes that can be feedstock for refineries that produce gasoline.


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## evenon (Nov 13, 2006)

BGood said:


> Go tell that to the people from Lac Mégantic.


Agreed, complete disaster.

Not even those of us who work in Energy think that trains are a good idea for shipping diluted bitumen. However with a lack of pipeline capacity it becomes more and more popular.

Oddly enough...shipping bitumen by rail is significantly more expensive than the pipelines. Gets odder when you look at the majority owners of rail cars for transportation and ownership in the larger bitumen producers, it's an interesting "follow the money" exercise.

If you own both the production and the transportation, and you make transportation expensive, and ensure cheaper more reliable and safe transportation is not available, it discourages competition.
Combine that with some of the misguided common thinking and it makes for a very profitable and stable source of energy.


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

To quote Grandma Joad: "I'm 'tard. I'm just gettin' 'tard is all. 

It is getting awfully expensive to live in Canada. Just groceries, gasoline and heating your home in winter. These are not discretionary expenses for many who reside outside large cities.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> Yes, a Platinum will cost you over $100K, which is true of literally every make of truck right now.


No. No, it's not


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

evenon said:


> Kearl production ~200,000 bbls/day is part of a fully integrated value stream primarily belonging to Exxon, it's not really elastic to the price of gasoline, certainly an impact but not the only factor. Energy logistics and marketing have multiple dimensions and not really all one dimension such as the price of gasoline.
> 
> Another consideration is heavy oil produced in the oil sands is mostly used for other fuels, plastics, petrochemicals, even to build roads. Not really used for gasoline much except for the product that is upgraded to synthetic crudes that can be feedstock for refineries that produce gasoline.


Fair point. I should have said price of oil. Mea culpa.

And, as I previously stated, we are going to need oil for the foreseeable future. Even Paul MacCartney wore leather shoes because he said there just wasn't a viable alternative at the time.


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

We all seem to think oil / gas has been around for generations and all thru out history. Well, lets stop thinking our generation is entitled to cheap gas forever. Evolution also occurs in how we move and transport ourselves. The signs have been on the wall for many years. Adapt and adjust. Solar power, EV's, hydrogen electric to name a few advancements with many more coming.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Today is the National Day for Truth and Reconciliation in Canada. And I recall that a little over a year ago an entire thread was shut down on GC that was devoted to mourning the lives of indigenous children who died at residential schools and were subsequently buried in unmarked graves. To the surprise and dismay of many, that thread was considered too political. Here we have gotten to a point - after numerous overtly political remarks - where a member is actually implying an armed insurrection against the government.


Percy said:


> The only way to get Canada back is to take it back but the FLP [what the member calls the "Fascist Liberal Party"] are disarming law abiding Canadians by the thousands !


Anyway, I hope that today many of us can pause from lamenting things that are relatively quite small (including the loss of cheap oil) when we consider the atrocities committed in the past within our own country.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Thunderboy1975 said:


> Apparently there is only 55 years of oil left on the planet.



I should be good.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

I don't believe this 55 year stuff, they've been saying that for 55 years (literally since the 70s).

There's nothing wrong w/ transitioning energy strategies, I personally don't care what we use as long as it's affordable. So far, it hasn't been - and IMO, won't be for long time.

I've already started my own transition. It's a pity, but I've already shifted all of my charity donations, green investments and other stuff of that nature to my personal transport budget.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)




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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

laristotle said:


> Robert Merasty: Ottawa’s oil and gas emissions cap will hurt Indigenous communities
> 
> 
> The plan goes against the ideals of reconciliation and Indigenous rights
> ...


Which is precisely the reasoning that got us into this climate mess in the first place: the dangling of wealth before us, like a ball of yarn in front of a kitten. Yes, it is patently unfair that Euro-Americans got that wealth first and now wish to curtail it out of some twisted sense of guilt, without giving developing nations and Indigenous peoples their opportunity and cut. But _repeating_ a grievous error in the name of fairness and justice does not seem wise to me.

It's not a basis for decision-making, but the current (and last) season of the Danish show _Borgen_ has provided an interesting and unsurprisingly thoughtful scenario for mulling over such matters. In the show, oil is discovered off the coast of Greenland. Their indigenous government is eager to develop it, for all the reasons outlined in the quote and Environics poll. Part of that urge is nourished by the desire to eventually be self-sufficient and independent of Denmark. Greenland is formally a part of Denmark, and the platform of the main character's party (one of several that form the perpetual coalition government that Denmark has) is a green one. However, the PM is eager to maintain the support of Greenland, and yields to their policy interests, much to the dismay and disgust of the main character (who is "only" Foreign Minister). The company developing the oil is ostensibly Canadian, and "clean" by that reasoning (after all, why would a "Canadian" company wish to mess up the Arctic Ocean?), but a significant share of the company is owned by a Russian oligarch with a known record of criminal activities. Ultimately, the prosperity of Greenland is pitted against the environmental objectives of the main character.

Now, this is *fiction*, remember. But the themes and questions running through it are germane. Can we rely on the interest in the public interest of those within the industry, their investors, and those embedded in the politics of it? Yes, it is only right to seek the prosperity of those who have been excluded from prosperity in past. But how far-sighted or short-sighted is that urge? As many have noted, after careful consideration, it will be far more costly to NOT do something about climate change than to do something.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

^ loada crap. World needs the energy, and the need and usage for fossil fuel energy overall in the world is going up, not down, to this day.


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

Milkman said:


> I should be good.


Same, sold the Challenger rt plus a few years ago. Cheaper to Uber.


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

When I started this thread it was because I was ticked that the refineries in the US were constantly doing maintenance in the early summer every freakin year. And of course this is the time when oil distributors slow production down to maintain the well equipment. Which depletes the stock they have built up during winter/spring.
And then we have folks who just had to go into politics and start shitting on a real concern by doing so, and we even had one that was way the hell out on the limb by suggesting violence. WTF is the matter with some of you.
And then we have others who have given some great posts and who have made some fantastic points for me to consider. So to me its about learning and hearing other opinions that are different then my own so I can see other ideas that I hadn't thought of before.
Lets face it the more we can learn from each other the great we have to understanding how we can move forward.
please lets keep it on track and not have it disappear into oblivion.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Sometimes, Louis, you're the only one on the ship that_ isn't_ a fool.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Many years ago, governments were smaller and basically were only there when absolutely necessary. And newscasts didn't report on the every minutia of government officials like they were celebrity demi-gods.

Now, governments are involved in every decision, from energy to food to where & how we live to even the air we breathe. So starting a thread about fuel prices will invariably invite political opinion because people know that governments are directly involved with the price changes. You can't discuss fuel without government.

If you want non-political opinions, start a thread about how awesome compound radius necks are or that cute bikini girls should be in guitar ads from now on (actually, ALL ads).


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## leftysg (Mar 29, 2008)

How is this still a thread given the political espousing being done. Lock it down.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

leftysg said:


> How is this still a thread given the political espousing being done. Lock it down.


If I don't like the topic of a particular thread I tend to just stay out of it. Yeah sure maybe it goes against forum policy but I'm not the GC police so...


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

player99 said:


> Where I live there are more giant pickup trucks than any other vehicles. They drive them extra very slowly to conserve fuel. If you can't afford to drive your big gas guzzling vehicle...
> 
> Another weird thing where I live is ATV's are allowed to drive on the streets.


Not in Ottawa or Toronto. The bulk of drivers doing over 140 on the highways or racing from red light to red light are the pickup trucks and large SUVs. People don’t get that fuel consumption changes with driving habits. Yet they’re the first to complain about gas prices.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

1SweetRide said:


> Not in Ottawa or Toronto. The bulk of drivers doing over 140 on the highways or racing from red light to red light are the pickup trucks and large SUVs. People don’t get that fuel consumption changes with driving habits. Yet they’re the first to complain about gas prices.


I spent about 15 years commuting between Brantford and Hamilton on the 402. One observation I made was during snow storms, especially the first fall of the year it was always the SUV's in the ditch and the odd pickup truck. My wife drives an SUV commuting from Brantford to Hamilton and in 7 years of driving it she's never once been in the ditch. Almost once when some idiot in a pickup cut her off.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

1SweetRide said:


> Not in Ottawa or Toronto. The bulk of drivers doing over 140 on the highways or racing from red light to red light are the pickup trucks and large SUVs. People don’t get that fuel consumption changes with driving habits. Yet they’re the first to complain about gas prices.


I still maintain that vehicles where the driver sits higher up - of which pickups and many SUVs are simply examples - tend to encourage driving faster because ofthe manner in which the visual angle "tricks" the driver. Of course, we can always look at the speedometer, but while keeping our eyes on the road, we tend to perceive our velocity according to how quickly we approach the visual horizon. And though it may only be a matter of an additional 16-20" more elevation, sometimes that changes the angle subtended enough such that the horizon appears farther away, in which case we feel like we're approaching it more slowly. I recall well my first time driving a van - probably for moving - and would find myself surprised by the difference between how fast I _thought_ I was going, and what the speedometer told me when I looked down at it.

My experience of "roadside attractions" is similar to guitarman2's, although it must be said that ANY vehicle, no matter how big or snazzy, can be driven safely, *if* the driver makes a point of doing so. But not all drivers are that attentive or skilled.

Some years back, we were returning to Ottawa along the 401, and the weather was perched precariously around the freezing point. A bit of drifting snow, but not so much as to obscure what was in front of you. However, the road and traction conditions kept changing, depending on whether it was a rise, or a dip in the highway's elevation, with some areas having great traction and others, only a short distance away having lots of black ice. And as you might expect, a disproportionate number of those spun out into the ditch were SUVs, vans, and such. You pick up speed in _this_ spot, because you have good traction and underestimate your velocity, and then you hit a patch of black ice in _that_ spot.

This is why I like a car that sits lower to the ground.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

mhammer said:


> I still maintain that vehicles where the driver sits higher up - of which pickups and many SUVs are simply examples - tend to encourage driving faster because ofthe manner in which the visual angle "tricks" the driver. Of course, we can always look at the speedometer, but while keeping our eyes on the road, we tend to perceive our velocity according to how quickly we approach the visual horizon. And though it may only be a matter of an additional 16-20" more elevation, sometimes that changes the angle subtended enough such that the horizon appears farther away, in which case we feel like we're approaching it more slowly. I recall well my first time driving a van - probably for moving - and would find myself surprised by the difference between how fast I _thought_ I was going, and what the speedometer told me when I looked down at it.


Sounds like a lot of baloney. I don't drive my wifes SUV often (I drive a regular 4 door sedan) but when I do I drive the speed limit same as my car. When I was younger I was quite heavy on the gas pedal. I found a couple years ago at the age of 60 I started to get that "old man" mentality of slowing way down and enjoying the scenery. I have to be careful I don't go too slow, below speed limit. I'm now one of those old men that used to piss me off when they were in the way of my 30-40k over the speed limit.


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

Gas hit over 2.30Euro (3.12$ CAD) /litre during summer in France and Germany (Roughly 50% of that amount is taxes.)
But no one drives 6.8L V12.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

mhammer said:


> And as you might expect, a disproportionate number of those spun out into the ditch were SUVs, vans, and such.



A body in motion tends to stay in motion.

The more mass a body has, the harder it is to subject that body to a change in direction.

Big powerful vehicles feel great until you lose control and are just along for the ride. Sure that 4 wheel drive will get off the line like all get out, but trying to change the direction of over 2 tons of vehicle on a slippery surface, or stopping it, becomes increasingly difficult. More so with the trend to put big wide oversize tires on them.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> A body in motion tends to stay in motion.
> 
> The more mass a body has, the harder it is to subject that body to a change in direction.
> 
> Big powerful vehicles feel great until you lose control and are just along for the ride. Sure that 4 wheel drive will get off the line like all get out, but trying to change the direction of over 2 tons of vehicle on a slippery surface, or stopping it, becomes increasingly difficult. More so with the trend to put big wide oversize tires on them.


Like I say, if one makes a point of driving slowly and safely, size of vehicle and seating elevation doesn't matter. And bodies in motion stay in motion longer and farther if they have greater kinetic energy, which is, in turn, a function of velocity as well as mass.

I'll say it again. If you think you're going slower than you really are, and are not paying close attention to your actual speed, dumb stuff is bound to happen. And the reality is that people who sit higher up CAN see farther. That's one of the reasons why they like those vehicles. One of the many reasons why, when we seemed to be among the very few in Edmonton that didn't drive a truck, so much highway signage felt like it was situated where smaller cars could only see it at the last moment.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

guitarman2 said:


> I found a couple years ago at the age of 60 I started to get that "old man" mentality of slowing way down and enjoying the scenery. I have to be careful I don't go too slow, below speed limit.


Around the time weed became legal.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Paul Running said:


> View attachment 439544


Well yes if you drive a Pinto


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## evenon (Nov 13, 2006)

FatStrat2 said:


> I don't believe this 55 year stuff, they've been saying that for 55 years (literally since the 70s).


Agreed. 

What seems to get glossed over is recovery rates in reservoirs. In Canada, atleast, there are numerous plays where more oil remains in the ground than has been produced. As we discover more technologies to produce what's in the ground the recovery rates will rise, in some case >90% of reserves in place were not produced. "Until peak technology, there is no peak oil"... not my quote but kind of hits it on the nose.

There are also massive oil sands reserves in Saskatchewan that nobody has figured out how to produce yet. Since that is the case those reserves are not even "booked" in all the Canadian reserves numbers. 

Also the case in China with shale oil and gas , haven't figured out how to produce it yet, and even gave Exxon a lease to see if they could figure it out. I am sure many other countries the same conditions exist.


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## DavidP (Mar 7, 2006)

Well, we broke another record this morning -- $2.419/l throughout metro Vancouver!!!


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## evenon (Nov 13, 2006)

DavidP said:


> Well, we broke another record this morning -- $2.419/l throughout metro Vancouver!!!


$1.54 in Calgary and real estate is much cheaper but you have to deal with the winters.


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## evenon (Nov 13, 2006)

self edit....


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

evenon said:


> self edit....


I wish I could do that in real life.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

player99 said:


> I wish I could do that in real life.


You can!


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Mark Brown said:


> You can!


No I can't.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

player99 said:


> No I can't.


Maybe not after the fact, but you can always proof read.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

evenon said:


> Agreed.
> 
> What seems to get glossed over is recovery rates in reservoirs. In Canada, atleast, there are numerous plays where more oil remains in the ground than has been produced. As we discover more technologies to produce what's in the ground the recovery rates will rise, in some case >90% of reserves in place were not produced. "Until peak technology, there is no peak oil"... not my quote but kind of hits it on the nose.
> 
> ...


And one of the reasons why the "55 years" deadline keeps moving is because developers keep drilling in new places that *used to be* pristine and aren't anymore. As you illustrate, various forms of oil deposits keep cropping up.


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

evenon said:


> $1.54 in Calgary and real estate is much cheaper but you have to deal with the winters.


And snow squalls in June, July, August and Sept. Lol.


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## MetalTele79 (Jul 20, 2020)

Every time I see this thread bumped up my brain thinks it's about a Holy Fuck show in BC even though I know it's about gas prices 🤨

Fun fact: I met my wife at one of this band's shows.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

The environmental damage of extracting shale oil (fracking) is appalling.

The environmental devastation caused to extract and process oil sands is obscene. But we ignore it because it way up north where no one gives a shit.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> The environmental damage of extracting shale oil (fracking) is appalling.
> 
> The environmental devastation caused to extract and process oil sands is obscene. But we ignore it because it way up north where no one gives a shit.


What, you didn't buy the "clean" energy from Canada bit


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Meanwhile, nobody's saying shit about China continuously building 100's of coal burning electric plants.
Or BC being the largest NA exporter of coal?


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

laristotle said:


> Meanwhile, nobody's saying shit about China continuously building 100's of coal burning electric plants.


No need, they promised to build less 🤣 

Plus where else would we send all of our coal


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## evenon (Nov 13, 2006)

[QUOTE="Powdered Toast Man, post: 3028091, member: 557"
The environmental devastation caused to extract and process oil sands is obscene. But we ignore it because it way up north where no one gives a shit.
[/QUOTE]

Expand on that please. Help me understand the environmental devastation of SAGD.


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## evenon (Nov 13, 2006)

mhammer said:


> And one of the reasons why the "55 years" deadline keeps moving is because developers keep drilling in new places that *used to be* pristine and aren't anymore. As you illustrate, various forms of oil deposits keep cropping up.


Agreed there are environmental impacts to energy. Also is from housing, shopping malls and schools. 

Are you familiar with reclamation regulations in Canada ? Can you tell me where we miss on that and how it can be improved ? 

There are significant land disturbance and reclamation regulations and liabilities in Canada.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

evenon said:


> Expand on that please. Help me understand the environmental devastation of SAGD.


According to the Pembina Institute, 43 percent more GHG emissions than mining in 2016. Given that the mining isn't great in that regard....









Canada won’t perform an environmental review of most new oilsands projects. Here’s why. | The Narwhal


The future of development in Alberta’s oilsands lies in underground, steam-assisted operations that represent some of the country’s fastest growing greenhouse gas emissions. These projects have never been subject to federal environmental reviews and that’s not expected to change with Ottawa’s...




thenarwhal.ca


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## evenon (Nov 13, 2006)

Rollin Hand said:


> According to the Pembina Institute, 43 percent more GHG emissions than mining in 2016. Given that the mining isn't great in that regard....


Seems to me the actual point being made in that article is not about GHG, but rather a political observation/statement that I cannot comment further on in this forum do the rules of the forum.

I did not read about environmental devastation. If my car emits 43% more GHG than my neighbour, but they drive 10x more than I do, it doesn't mean my car is causing environmental devastation.

Being honest, I though the article would be about water, as that is the usual case that is made against SAGD. And it's valid, but smart people have figured out how minimize that impact as well. But there is still a high level of brackish water use.

I do respect anyone's right to an opinion, even if it's completely opposite of mine, I do however wish we could become a little less "click bateish" and with less polarizing views, like all arguments there is true on both sides.

with that, I'll tap out... cheers.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Mark Brown said:


> What, you didn't buy the "clean" energy from Canada bit


Someone very close to me has flown over the oil sands mines/production in a chopper. They said it looks like Mordor.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> Someone very close to me has flown over the oil sands mines/production in a chopper. They said it looks like Mordor.


It is less than good to say the least.


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