# Playing Guitar With Arthritis?



## colchar

Does anyone else here suffer from arthritis, particularly in their picking hand wrist?

I have arthritis in both hands as well as in my right, picking hand, wrist (and a few other places as well). Because of the arthritis in my fretting hand I am about to sell my favourite guitar in order to buy a Les Paul with a thick neck because those provide some relief. 

Unfortunately, my picking hand wrist is causing problems too. I am basically at the point at which I can no longer use a pick because it doesn't matter if I move my hand side to side or rotate it, my wrist still hurts (very, very quickly if I pick using a side to side motion). I am now playing with my fingers - thumb and first finger (thumb for downstrokes and index finger for upstrokes for both single notes and strumming) because I am not sure I want to go full on fingerstyle. If I figure out that using all of my fingers is a better method I will switch (but would still avoid patterns if possible).

If you check this video, I now pick much like this guy except that I don't use a whammy bar:








Anyway, if anyone else here suffers from arthritis in their picking hand wrist I would be interested to know how you deal with it. Is there a picking technique that offers relief? Exercises? Medication of some kind? Any advice would be appreciated.

And if anyone has any pointers for playing with arthritis in the fretting hand, I would appreciate hearing those too. I expect that the thicker neck on the new LP will help, but advice is always welcome.


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## Budda

Have you been doing exercises? My bandmate has arthritis, but can usually handle 30-40m at a time of playing. I think he has stretches he does.


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## colchar

Budda said:


> Have you been doing exercises? My bandmate has arthritis, but can usually handle 30-40m at a time of playing. I think he has stretches he does.


No, not yet. I have an appointment with my arthritis specialist on the 4th. I am seeing him about my hips but will also speak to him about my hands and will ask what exercises he recommends.


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## ed2000

I don't think I have joint problems in my hands but holding a pick is no longer comfortable. I've been fingerpicking acoustic and classical for 50 years and the last 15 years adapted playing electric with fingers 90% of the time. I also limit my playing time to 10 -15 minutes at a time - not being in a band makes that possible.

There are times when my finger feel 'fat' and it takes time to get up to speed.


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## Jamdog

Aren't there those nail type picks that could help with picking? 
If it holds itself on your fingers, perhaps it might work out well?


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## Lincoln

I've been dropping my pick a lot. Over the years I must have unconsciously developed a method of holding the pick with more pressure on loud passages, lighter pressure on quiet passages. These days when I go to play softly, the pick just falls to the floor and I look down going "wtf?"


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## colchar

ed2000 said:


> I don't think I have joint problems in my hands but holding a pick is no longer comfortable. I've been fingerpicking acoustic and classical for 50 years and the last 15 years adapted playing electric with fingers 90% of the time.



Do you use thumb, index, middle, and ring finger? Do you play patterns or do you simply use fingers to pluck notes/chords rather than a pick? I'd be interested to hear about your technique.


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## colchar

Jamdog said:


> Aren't there those nail type picks that could help with picking?
> If it holds itself on your fingers, perhaps it might work out well?



I've tried thumb and fingerpicks but cannot stand them. I actually like using my fingers so don't have an issue with that.


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## Robert1950

My arthritis in my knees. But I think it is starting in the thumb joint of my left had. I mainly notice it when my 8 hour Tylenol wears off. But Voltaren cream works quit well. I have a friend my age who took glucosamine and swears by it. But I can 't testify to that as I use it in combination with the pain reliever pill and cream. In addition I do mild stretching and massaging of the hands.


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## torndownunit

colchar said:


> And if anyone has any pointers for playing with arthritis in the fretting hand, I would appreciate hearing those too. I expect that the thicker neck on the new LP will help, but advice is always welcome.


I know this will sound like new age nonsense to a lot of people, but diet can have a remarkable effect on inflammation conditions in the body. The Paleo 'diet' is geared towards this, and I have had friends see remarkable differences with it. I put diet in quotes because it's more of a lifestyle thing than a diet. I don't follow it as strictly as I used to, but still keep many of the principals. I will be going back to following it more strictly again though because it helps with all the injuries I have had. It's not a hard thing to at least try out for a couple of months to see if it helps. There are other health benefits to it as well, so at the worst you might get healthier lol.


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## torndownunit

Robert1950 said:


> My arthritis in my knees. But I think it is starting in the thumb joint of my left had. I mainly notice it when my 8 hour Tylenol wears off. But Voltaren cream works quit well. I have a friend my age who took glucosamine and swears by it. But I can 't testify to that as I use it in combination with the pain reliever pill and cream. In addition I do mild stretching and massaging of the hands.


Be really careful with Volteran. People don't realize how badly it can mess up your stomach with prolonged use. It happened to me. I was having horrible heartburn and stomach problems, then read the side effects closer. I didn't realize a topical NSAID could affect the stomch the same way as taking one orally. http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2011/08/21/even-topical-nsaids-have-side-effects/


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## ed2000

colchar said:


> Do you use thumb, index, middle, and ring finger? Do you play patterns or do you simply use fingers to pluck notes/chords rather than a pick? I'd be interested to hear about your technique.


Actually I don't give it any thought as to how I pick and I just transferred my technique from 'classical' to 'kinda like rock'. I believe Jeff Beck and Mark Knopfler mostly fingerpick.
Obviously I don't shred on the guitar and have adapted to using all fingers to pick. You will get used to using bare skin on steel strings.

As previously mentioned, a change in diet can make your whole body more functional. Do you play guitar for a living or is it recreational only?


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## colchar

torndownunit said:


> I know this will sound like new age nonsense to a lot of people, but diet can have a remarkable effect on inflammation conditions in the body. The Paleo 'diet' is geared towards this, and I have had friends see remarkable differences with it. I put diet in quotes because it's more of a lifestyle thing than a diet. I don't follow it as strictly as I used to, but still keep many of the principals. I will be going back to following it more strictly again though because it helps with all the injuries I have had. It's not a hard thing to at least try out for a couple of months to see if it helps. There are other health benefits to it as well, so at the worst you might get healthier lol.



While there is a connection between diet and inflammation (certain foods most certainly do aggravate inflammation), that Paleo diet is a crock. As a trained historian I can assure you that we have very little idea what humans ate during the paleolithic era so it is impossible to create a diet that mimics theirs. And following the Paleo Diet can also cause calcium deficiencies.

If those promoting it want to do so that is fine I guess, but it is just another fad diet with no scientific evidence to support it.


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## colchar

ed2000 said:


> Actually I don't give it any thought as to how I pick and I just transferred my technique from 'classical' to 'kinda like rock'. I believe Jeff Beck and Mark Knopfler mostly fingerpick.
> Obviously I don't shred on the guitar and have adapted to using all fingers to pick. You will get used to using bare skin on steel strings.
> 
> As previously mentioned, a change in diet can make your whole body more functional. Do you play guitar for a living or is it recreational only?



Purely recreational.


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## Robert1950

My daughter who can't tolerate any type of oral nsaid, except ibuprofen, has used the OTC Voltaren without any side effects, with occasional use. I use it occasionally on a specific area of my knees if I am going to be out and about a lot. Again the key word is occasional. I have found I do not have to use very much of that stuff. The OTC stuff is 10%. Prescription is 20% - I used that for a few days when I pulled a muscle in my back. 



torndownunit said:


> Be really careful with Volteran. People don't realize how badly it can mess up your stomach with prolonged use. It happened to me. I was having horrible heartburn and stomach problems, then read the side effects closer. I didn't realize a topical NSAID could affect the stomch the same way as taking one orally. http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2011/08/21/even-topical-nsaids-have-side-effects/


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## colchar

Robert1950 said:


> My daughter who can't tolerate any type of oral nsaid, except ibuprofen, has used the OTC Voltaren without any side effects, with occasional use. I use it occasionally on a specific area of my knees if I am going to be out and about a lot. Again the key word is occasional. I have found I do not have to use very much of that stuff. The OTC stuff is 10%. Prescription is 20% - I used that for a few days when I pulled a muscle in my back.



My family doctor gave me the prescription stuff. I only use it sparingly so have not noticed any side effects.


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## torndownunit

colchar said:


> While there is a connection between diet and inflammation (certain foods most certainly do aggravate inflammation), that Paleo diet is a crock. As a trained historian I can assure you that we have very little idea what humans ate during the paleolithic era so it is impossible to create a diet that mimics theirs. And following the Paleo Diet can also cause calcium deficiencies.
> 
> If those promoting it want to do so that is fine I guess, but it is just another fad diet with no scientific evidence to support it.



You need to look over the lame 'paleo' term for the diet. Of course that term is ridiculous. But it's development for treatment of inflammation and some of the principals are not at all. And how can you have a calcium deficiency when you are eating tons of green vegetables full of Calcium? That doesn't even make sense. I have never eaten dairy because it aggravates my migraines. I am in no way calcium deficient, there are plenty of other ways to get it. You don't need dairy in your diet. I am on the 'diet' for migraines and it has worked wonders for me. It has done even more for my friends with RA and other conditions relating to inlammation. Including a friend being able to completely get off of taking Humira which is a massive massive deal. Look at the diet purely for the foods that are in it, and how they can benefit someone, don't write it off simply based on an unfortunate monicker they chose to pick for it.

Your type of reply is exactly why I feared posting. Writing something off for some ridiculous reason like the name of it. You asked for any advice, I gave you some based on real world experience with something. And you choose to be a dick about it. So I won't even suggest Yoga and it's benefits to a closed mind since it's futile.


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## torndownunit

Robert1950 said:


> My daughter who can't tolerate any type of oral nsaid, except ibuprofen, has used the OTC Voltaren without any side effects, with occasional use. I use it occasionally on a specific area of my knees if I am going to be out and about a lot. Again the key word is occasional. I have found I do not have to use very much of that stuff. The OTC stuff is 10%. Prescription is 20% - I used that for a few days when I pulled a muscle in my back.


It was prolonged use for me that caused it while I had a knee injury. I wasn't using a lot at all, I was using it for a couple of weeks each day though. I just started having stomach issues eventually and couldn't figure out why. It sucks because it works very well. Interestingly enough I have a Cannabis salve that works awesomely for my shoulder. It doesn't get me high at all, it seems to just help with the pain. A friend gave me some of it awhile back.


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## Robert1950

I have a cast iron stomach. No meds have ever upset me. I used Voltaren orally for a heel spur for a couple of weeks a number of years ago. No side effects and it worked wonders. However I do monitor my blood pressure and have a kidney function test done whenever I have my physical done - mostly because I ate Ibuprofen like candy for the arthritis for a few years until the side effects started to become more publically known.


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## fredyfreeloader

Here's two that work well on arthritis, at least out here both are by prescription only. Nabilone (artificial Cannabis) and Methotrexate (low dose chemotherapy) both work great for relieving pain, in my case the problem was my stomach didn't like either one. Both prescribed by a rheumatologist. Presently I take nothing for pain, I haven't found one prescription or non-prescription that I can tolerate. I still play my guitars daily although my speed has been reduced to slow blues etc. 5 and 6 string bar chords have all been eliminated in favour of many more triads and intervals. Small is better in my case.


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## colchar

torndownunit said:


> You need to look over the lame 'paleo' term for the diet. Of course that term is ridiculous.


When it is allegedly based on what people of that era ate, it is hard to ignore the 'paleo' part of the name.




> And how can you have a calcium deficiency when you are eating tons of green vegetables full of Calcium? That doesn't even make sense.


Yes, it does. Although I have access to journal articles via academic libraries, I cannot post them here for others to read without revealing my login details. But if you have any access yourself check this citation:

"Hype or reality: should patients with metabolic syndrome-related NAFLD be on the Hunter-Gatherer (Paleo) diet to decrease morbidity?". _Journal of Gastrointestinal and Liver Diseases_, 24 (3), 2015.





> I have never eaten dairy because it aggravates my migraines. I am in no way calcium deficient, there are plenty of other ways to get it.


You might want to check with a doctor because someone who has never eaten dairy (I find that hard to believe as you will have consumed it as a child) is at real risk for calcium deficiencies.



> You don't need dairy in your diet.


Most experts disagree.




> Your type of reply is exactly why I feared posting. Writing something off for some ridiculous reason like the name of it.


I did not write it off due to its name, I wrote it off because of what it is based on.




> You asked for any advice, I gave you some based on real world experience with something. And you choose to be a dick about it.



I was not being a dick, I was stating that the Paleo Diet is nothing more than a fad diet with no scientific merit. That is a fact.

And that real world experience might not have been a result of the Paleo Diet, but simply by the elimination of something when switching to that diet. In other words, the diet itself might not have caused the change but one minor aspect of it might have - which does not validate the diet itself.




> So I won't even suggest Yoga and it's benefits to a closed mind since it's futile.



My mind is far from closed. As for yoga, it most definitely has benefits.


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## torndownunit

I actually have a nutrition background. I am not going to argue with you. If you properly eat the food groups laid out in a Paleo diet you will not be deficient in anything. If only eat what you want on it, and eat crappy, it's as bad as any other diet. There are tons of people out there not eating dairy for a ton of dietary reasons who are not deficient in calcium. You will find any many experts saying you can procure calcium from other sources as you will find saying you need dairy. And if someone is really concerned about it, they can supplement it. What is 'established' in this regard is quickly changing. Just like recommendations for fat and sodium are changing. So we can trade studies back and forth all day, it's not going to mean a thing. I could also go grab studies on calcium and dark leafy greens but it's so glaringly obvious to anyone that they really don't need to be posted. (or just post common sense, 1 cup of cooked collard greens is 25% of your Calcium DV).

The name "paleo" is a fad. The principals behind it are not in the slightest. There have been plenty of anti-inflammatory diets based on the exact same principals.

And I do get my levels checked for everything. I am completely fine and very cautious of my lifestyle, trust me. I am in amazing health for someone going on 40 and in the best shape of my life in fact.

And yes, You are being a dick. You stating your nutritional knowledge is absolute because you have a background in history is completely ridiculous. And the way you made that reply was snotty and offensive.


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## colchar

torndownunit said:


> The name "paleo" is a fad. The principals behind it are not in the slightest.


Yes, the principles behind it most definitely are. The Paleo Diet was not developed as an anti-inflammatory diet, it was developed for weight loss and everything that it is based on is false, completely false. There is no scientific basis for it whatsoever and its main proponent doesn't even have degrees in nutrition so is far, _very far_, from being an expert in the field.

The principle of using a diet to promote health or to limit the impact of diseases like arthritis is sound, but nothing about the Paleo Diet is sound. Not in the slightest.

But if you want to base your diet on something that has no scientific nor historical basis and that is propagated by someone with absolutely no training in the field of nutrition, that is up to you. Personally, I've got more sense than that.







> And yes, You are being a dick.


So disagreeing with the efficacy of a fad diet makes one a dick? Right.............




> You stating your nutritional knowledge is absolute because you have a background in history is completely ridiculous.


Nice straw man argument.

At no point did I _ever_ state that my knowledge of nutrition was absolute. What I stated was that my knowledge of history is sufficient to know that the Paleo Diet is a complete crock because not only do we not know what people in that era ate, people of that era had completely different diets based upon the regions in which they lived (diets are localized, _especially_ in hunter-gatherer societies).

And even if that diet was sound (which it most definitely is not), why would anyone want to follow a diet from a time when life expectancy was _much_ shorter, people were significantly unhealthier, infant mortality was much higher, people were generally malnourished, and nutritional requirements were much different from those of modern humans? Even if we did know what those people ate, it makes absolutely no sense to follow their diet in the modern era. None whatsoever.




> And the way you made that reply was snotty and offensive.



So disagreeing with you makes one snotty and offensive? That was not my intent and I do not think I did that. If you cannot handle being challenged, you need thicker skin.


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## Electraglide

Robert1950 said:


> My daughter who can't tolerate any type of oral nsaid, except ibuprofen, has used the OTC Voltaren without any side effects, with occasional use. I use it occasionally on a specific area of my knees if I am going to be out and about a lot. Again the key word is occasional. I have found I do not have to use very much of that stuff. The OTC stuff is 10%. Prescription is 20% - I used that for a few days when I pulled a muscle in my back.


I use Ibuprofen. I can also tell you that according to my knee, my ankle and foot, both hands and a few other places I've broken that the weather is changing and it's gonna get a little damp. If things get too tight I use Absorbine Jr......just remember to wash your hands.


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## High/Deaf

torndownunit said:


> Be really careful with Volteran. People don't realize how badly it can mess up your stomach with prolonged use. It happened to me. I was having horrible heartburn and stomach problems, then read the side effects closer. I didn't realize a topical NSAID could affect the stomch the same way as taking one orally. http://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2011/08/21/even-topical-nsaids-have-side-effects/


People should be careful with all NSAIDS, hell, all medications. YES, even OTC (remember, coke was OTC once, and we all know how that turned out). This one can effect your internal organs (stomach too) but not as quickly or severely as if taking similar doses orally (oral NSAIDs on an empty stomach can lead to more severe problems much more quickly).

Voltaren has one advantage in that you don't have to have something in your stomach when you take it. To those of us that can't eat early in the day, that can be critical (I have to pick and choose some of my meds based on this criteria). But none of these are designed to be chronic, they are all temporary relief.


And if I were to pick a diet, I'd go with Atkins. Hey, what could be wrong with a diet that recommends a pound of bacon for breakfast, but no banana? If I could eat breakfast, it would be a pound of bacon and not one of those monkey popsicles. Yeah, I don't see that one going sideways at all. ^)@#


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## cboutilier

High/Deaf said:


> People should be careful with all NSAIDS, hell, all medications. YES, even OTC (remember, coke was OTC once, and we all know how that turned out). This one can effect your internal organs (stomach too) but not as quickly or severely as if taking similar doses orally (oral NSAIDs on an empty stomach can lead to more severe problems much more quickly).
> 
> Voltaren has one advantage in that you don't have to have something in your stomach when you take it. To those of us that can't eat early in the day, that can be critical (I have to pick and choose some of my meds based on this criteria). But none of these are designed to be chronic, they are all temporary relief.
> 
> 
> And if I were to pick a diet, I'd go with Atkins. Hey, what could be wrong with a diet that recommends a pound of bacon for breakfast, but no banana? If I could eat breakfast, it would be a pound of bacon and not one of those monkey popsicles. Yeah, I don't see that one going sideways at all. ^)@#


Best diet I have ever used was Tim Hortons breakfast sandwiches and coffee for breakfast, chicken wings and beer for supper, and about a quart to a 40 of Jim Beam bourbon a day. I lost 30 pounds in a few months.^)@#MJF$#


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## Electraglide

cboutilier said:


> Best diet I have ever used was Tim Hortons breakfast sandwiches and coffee for breakfast, chicken wings and beer for supper, and about a quart to a 40 of Jim Beam bourbon a day. I lost 30 pounds in a few months.^)@#MJF$#


It was the timmies coffee that did that.


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## colchar

Electraglide said:


> I use Ibuprofen. I can also tell you that according to my knee, my ankle and foot, both hands and a few other places I've broken that the weather is changing and it's gonna get a little damp.


I used to think that was an old wives tale until I started experiencing it myself.




> If things get too tight I use Absorbine Jr......just remember to wash your hands.


I didn't realize that stuff was still on the market. I used it for various injuries when I was younger.


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## Blind Dog

I have prescriptions for Demerol, Oxi', Perc's, & a plastic card to streamline getting a shot of morphine at the local emergency. They make me irritable, constipated, and blue.

The prescriptions, and the card, gather dust. Dr's continue to write prescriptions for all manner of potions, notions, and lotions.

Brownies & retiring/identifying 'triggers'/modified behaviors work best for me. I do make amazing brownies tho.

I quit (40 years of chain) smoking _tobacco _a few years back. *Thanks to Champix, and Healey! *My general health saw such improvement, what quitting didn't fix, became much more tolerable. And I don't spend a sweet, vintage, guitar per year making the Players family richer. 

I stress less about money -- there's _never _enough anyways. My contemporaries say they're unhappy aging, and they do less -- I do more of what makes me happy, and I age less.

When I was young, folks used to make me feel bad about wanting to just sit and play guitar. They're all dead now.

Imo: momentum is paramount.


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## Swervin55

Well said Blind Dog. You aren't gonna wanna hear this, but these days when its really nice out and I have to choose between the Rocky Mountain and the Harley, the RM wins hands down.


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## greco

Blind Dog said:


> *"When I was young, folks used to make me feel bad about wanting to just sit and play guitar. They're all dead now."*


I nominate this for GC Forum quote of 2016.


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## Moosehead

I second this.^^^^


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## mrmatt1972

+1 on dietary change for relief.

I've been on the "Forks Over Knives" diet for over a year. It is scientifically sound (watch the film, read the books, check out The China Study) hardcore vegan diet. It has worked wonders for my joint pain. I used to walk with a cane, now I don't. Other benefits that are typical include weight loss, lowered blood pressure and regulation of blood sugar. And there has also been documented reversal of vascular damage.


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## Electraglide

colchar said:


> I used to think that was an old wives tale until I started experiencing it myself.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't realize that stuff was still on the market. I used it for various injuries when I was younger.


It isn't as strong as it once was but it still works. If you can't find it at your local pharmacy or places liuke that go to a place that deals in things for farms and farm animals, especially horses. Just use it after you get close with the sig other.


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## Electraglide

Swervin55 said:


> Well said Blind Dog. You aren't gonna wanna hear this, but these days when its really nice out and I have to choose between the Rocky Mountain and the Harley, the RM wins hands down.


You could ride the Harley through the Rockys, stopping where you want. If the weatherman is close I think a run to the Ice Fields might be in the offing. 
@Blind Dog...When I quit, after 50+ years I was down to smoking about a pack a day. I'm just wondering where the money is that I'm supposed to be saving. Same as where's the money I used to spend on alcohol and drugs?


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## High/Deaf

Swervin55 said:


> Well said Blind Dog. You aren't gonna wanna hear this, but these days when its really nice out and I have to choose between the Rocky Mountain and the Harley, the RM wins hands down.


Yea, I went through that when I first moved out here. Combination of in$urance and insane drivers led me to sell the Ninja and ride the Ritchey full time. No regrets - well, except for a week or two every spring (like right about now......).


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## colchar

mrmatt1972 said:


> +1 on dietary change for relief.
> 
> I've been on the "Forks Over Knives" diet for over a year. It is scientifically sound (watch the film, read the books, check out The China Study) hardcore vegan diet. It has worked wonders for my joint pain. I used to walk with a cane, now I don't. Other benefits that are typical include weight loss, lowered blood pressure and regulation of blood sugar. And there has also been documented reversal of vascular damage.



I am open to a legit diet that helps, unfortunately that one won't work for me because I think vegetables are the devil.


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## Electraglide

High/Deaf said:


> Yea, I went through that when I first moved out here. Combination of in$urance and insane drivers led me to sell the Ninja and ride the Ritchey full time. No regrets - well, except for a week or two every spring (like right about now......).


Moving from B.C. to Alberta was a bit of a shock when I found out that my B.C. motorcycle experience....40+ years of legal riding didn't mean a damned thing to Ab. insurance. Basic insurance here, for the car and the bike was actually more than with ICBC so everything is insured in the wife's name. Another shock is that there are not that many insurance companies out here that will insure a bike over 30 years of age. No Vintage, Collector or Antique plates for bikes and no short term insurance either. When I move back to B.C. I'll keep the bikes etc. insured in Ab. if I can. If not I'll pay ICBC and ride. Never had any problem with riding in B.C., 15 of those 40 I lived in the lower mainland.


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## Blind Dog

I've been wondering what kind work you do, colchar? Wondering too, if bringing your guitar to the specialist's appointment might be helpful. I would also be curious to know if a physiotherapist might be able to spot something that could be beneficial. Guitar movements are more subtle, and varied, than a person who doesn't play are likely to consider. What doctors_ think _they know can be their patient's downfall. 

Hope you get some relief. 



Swervin55 said:


> Well said Blind Dog. You aren't gonna wanna hear this, but these days when its really nice out and I have to choose between the Rocky Mountain and the Harley, the RM wins hands down.


Thanks Swervin55.

I'm actually thinking of letting the chopper, and the Buell go. I would get a lot more use out of a sweet jazzbox, and a Collings. Or a '69 Lincoln Mk lll & a Collings jazzbox. The pup's a bit timid, and I can't, in good conscience, volunteer him for shotgun in the HD crumple zone. Haven't rode since I got him -- two years ago. 

My 'biker' son-in-law (factory-blacked-out-Kury'd-Dyna) says, "Old farts _with_ Harleys look so stupid. It's embarrassing."

So I still do get considerable o.f. enjoyment _with_ them. 

Been thinking about it quite a bit tho.


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## colchar

Blind Dog said:


> I've been wondering what kind work you do, colchar?


I'm in PR/Communications. So I write fir a living and thus cannot avoid typing.




> Wondering too, if bringing your guitar to the specialist's appointment might be helpful. I would also be curious to know if a physiotherapist might be able to spot something that could be beneficial. Guitar movements are more subtle, and varied, than a person who doesn't play are likely to consider. What doctors_ think _they know can be their patient's downfall.


A friend from university is a physical therapist so it might be worth speaking to her.




> Hope you get some relief.


Thanks.


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## Electraglide

Blind Dog said:


> I've been wondering what kind work you do, colchar? Wondering too, if bringing your guitar to the specialist's appointment might be helpful. I would also be curious to know if a physiotherapist might be able to spot something that could be beneficial. Guitar movements are more subtle, and varied, than a person who doesn't play are likely to consider. What doctors_ think _they know can be their patient's downfall.
> 
> Hope you get some relief.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Swervin55.
> 
> I'm actually thinking of letting the chopper, and the Buell go. I would get a lot more use out of a sweet jazzbox, and a Collings. Or a '69 Lincoln Mk lll & a Collings jazzbox. The pup's a bit timid, and I can't, in good conscience, volunteer him for shotgun in the HD crumple zone. Haven't rode since I got him -- two years ago.
> 
> My 'biker' son-in-law (factory-blacked-out-Kury'd-Dyna) says, "Old farts _with_ Harleys look so stupid. It's embarrassing."
> 
> So I still do get considerable o.f. enjoyment _with_ them.
> 
> Been thinking about it quite a bit tho.


I guess I could be a "stupid looking old fart". 2 years with out riding? I can't imagine what that's like. Post a pic of your chopper. I have found that my hands lose feeling when they get cold. I guess I could get heated grips like the wife's Deluxe has.....nahh. That's what the oil bucket and forced air hand dryers in gas stations are for.


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## Blind Dog

Electraglide said:


> ... Post a pic of your chopper ...


I posted some pics on the, 'Show us your motorcycles' thread.


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## Guest

Interesting.
Good luck.


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## KapnKrunch

I too swear by glucosamine sulfate, but my pain is very slight (wakes me up at night, or bothers me after prolonged physical work). Anyway, I would try all the "it-can't-hurt" remedies first, then go to the pharmaceuticals if necessary. Just as much truth and nonsense in both areas.


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## annuvin

colchar said:


> Anyway, if anyone else here suffers from arthritis in their picking hand wrist I would be interested to know how you deal with it. Is there a picking technique that offers relief? Exercises? Medication of some kind? Any advice would be appreciated.


I broke my left wrist twice and suffer painful arthritis as a direct result. It got to the point where playing for as little as five minutes would cause too much pain to enjoy the experience. I was near the point where I saw no option but to sell my gear. I ended up trying glucosamine therapy of two 500mg capsules a day. That was New Year's and I am able to play for hours now without issue. I'd highly recommend giving it a try. It didn't get rid of all my pain, but I definitely have far more good days and bad. It certainly helped to the point where I didn't think twice about buying a Les Paul Studio a month ago.


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## blueshores_guy

My fretting (left) hand's arthritis has left me with a swollen/bent index finger and a pinky that will no longer bend as it should. It's the pinky that causes pain when playing, and forming certain chords (fortunately, not many) is not possible any more. 
Tried glucosamine, and it did help somewhat, but the accompanying constipation was no fun at all. So my doctor told me to try taking just one Aleve daily. That seems to offer about the same amount of relief, with no side effects (so far). The pinky will never bend the way it used to, but at least it's less painful now.

And I finally wised up and corrected my playing posture while sitting, which is how I play 99% of the time. Like the majority of other players I've seen, I had always rested the guitar on my right leg. 
That position, after several years, was causing muscle pain in the right side of my back, to the point where simply walking would give me significant discomfort after just 5 minutes. Physiotherapy helped, but the solution was to do exactly what my instructor told me to do years ago: leave the knees far enough apart to rest the guitar on the LEFT leg, and angle the neck upwards a bit. Just like the classical players do. That helped a lot, although it took a few months to get accustomed to the new position. I'm far from being young any more, so I expect to have to cope with more of these situations down the road.


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## colchar

blueshores_guy said:


> And I finally wised up and corrected my playing posture while sitting, which is how I play 99% of the time. Like the majority of other players I've seen, I had always rested the guitar on my right leg.
> That position, after several years, was causing muscle pain in the right side of my back, to the point where simply walking would give me significant discomfort after just 5 minutes. Physiotherapy helped, but the solution was to do exactly what my instructor told me to do years ago: leave the knees far enough apart to rest the guitar on the LEFT leg, and angle the neck upwards a bit. Just like the classical players do. That helped a lot, although it took a few months to get accustomed to the new position. I'm far from being young any more, so I expect to have to cope with more of these situations down the road.


I have degenerated discs in my lower back (three or four of them). One of the effects of this is to cause pain in my hips (my left hip is giving me particular trouble the last 2-3 days). I have always played with the guitar on my right leg (like you, the overwhelming majority of my playing is done while sitting) but maybe switching might be an idea. I have tried it briefly a few times and noticed a little discomfort in my back. But perhaps that was just an adjustment period that I would move through if I was to stick to it. And perhaps it would be easier if I sat on a chair or a stool rather than on the edge of my couch!

On another note, I recently built my dream Tele and love the thing. I had .09s on there which was great for my left hand, but they were too floppy for my right hand as I am rather heavy handed. So I switched to .10s but those caused a lot of pain in the knuckles of my left hand. My solution was to switch to 9.5s. I just put those on last night so am not in a position to make a judgement yet, but my left hand hurt when playing last night (that might just be ongoing pain from using .10s though).

The Tele has the vintage 7.25" radius and small vintage sized frets. Those specs allegedly make playing chords easier but my hand hurts so I tried another guitar last night. That guitar is set up for slide so the action is a little higher and it has thicker, .12 gauge strings. Despite that, playing chords almost seemed easier than on the Tele and I think it might be because of the medium jumbo frets on that guitar (although the action is set higher it is still low enough to fret easily). I think I might play that guitar for the next little while. Or maybe I will buy another that has medium jumbos. Either way, as much as I love my Tele I think I have to put it aside for a little while. I really hope I don't have to switch the neck to one with medium jumbo frets! I ordered the neck for it directly from Fender and it is a good neck. I don't want to lose money on having to sell it so, if I do have to switch, I hope I can find someone with a similar neck so that we can just do a direct swap. But I am getting ahead of myself............


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## blueshores_guy

Forgot to mention......if you're going to try out that sitting position with the guitar on your left leg, get something to elevate your left foot 6 to 8" (or whatever is comfortable for you). Makes a big difference. I sit on what is essentially a high-backed bar stool, seat 30" off the floor, and put a folding card-table chair (seat 18" off the floor) right in front of it for my left foot.


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## colchar

blueshores_guy said:


> Forgot to mention......if you're going to try out that sitting position with the guitar on your left leg, get something to elevate your left foot 6 to 8" (or whatever is comfortable for you). Makes a big difference. I sit on what is essentially a high-backed bar stool, seat 30" off the floor, and put a folding card-table chair (seat 18" off the floor) right in front of it for my left foot.



I have one of the footrests that classical players use.

I also have a stool that I could use and, like many stools, it has crossbars between its legs that I can rest a foot on. Unfortunately, the seat on that is hard as hell so I would have to cut some foam to put on the seat and then put some material over it. Easily enough done but the wood is ridiculously hard and I am not sure staples would go through it to secure the foam and the material.


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## colchar

I have started playing with the guitar on my left leg in the classical style. So far I like it. Yes, there is a bit of an adjustment to be made but I have already found that there is less stress on my left wrist. I am feeling a bit of back strain but I expect that I will get used to it soon enough. Because of my disc problems I have been negligent about strengthening my core muscles, which would certainly help me to feel less strain in my back (in this and all other situations), so maybe this switch will give me the impetus to get off of my arse and do something that I should have done long ago anyway.


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## blueshores_guy

I had resisted the guitar on left leg position for years based primarily on the fact that I thought I would look stupid doing it. Took a while to realize that, considering I never play out, nobody would see me looking stupid anyway. 

I have two sets of 15-minute exercises that get alternated on a daily basis: one addresses core muscles (basically a series of different stretches), the other, provided by my physiotherapist, is a combination of stretches and pulling exercises that directly target the back muscles. A nice side benefit from these is that my golf swing is much smoother now and my drives longer.


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## colchar

blueshores_guy said:


> I had resisted the guitar on left leg position for years based primarily on the fact that I thought I would look stupid doing it. Took a while to realize that, considering I never play out, nobody would see me looking stupid anyway.


From my limited experience with it thus far, it does seem to be an efficient way to play. I guess that is why classical players have been doing it for so long. And because of this conversation I have been paying more attention to how famous players hold their guitars. Country guys playing dreadnoughts hold them straight across their bodies due to the size of the guitars, but the majority of rock players angle the guitar neck upwards. Even someone like Steve Clark, who often seemed to have the body of the guitar down by his knees, angled the neck upwards. When sitting a lot of them will have the guitar on the right leg and some will angle it upwards while others will have it straight across. But those who hold theirs straight across have far more talent than I do so can get away with that.




> I have two sets of 15-minute exercises that get alternated on a daily basis: one addresses core muscles (basically a series of different stretches), the other, provided by my physiotherapist, is a combination of stretches and pulling exercises that directly target the back muscles. A nice side benefit from these is that my golf swing is much smoother now and my drives longer.


I would appreciate it if you could tell me what those are, whether here in the thread or via PM.


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## blueshores_guy

The core muscle exercises came straight out of this book:

Back RX: A 15-Minute-a-Day Yoga- and Pilates-Based Program to End Low Back Pain: Hilary Hinzmann, Vijay Vad M.D.: 9781592400454: Books - Amazon.ca

The book goes through 3 separate series of exercises, varying in intensity/difficulty. My routine uses the most difficult ones only. (Took a while to work up to that point.)
Well worth the $20 or so.

For the back muscle exercises, I'll PM you.


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## Bubb

I'm trying to cope with arthritis and playing as well,pretty much all of my joints are affected except my right hip for some reason.
The severity comes and goes and seems to pick which joints will hurt at any given time.
Occasionally they will all flair up a once just to let me know how bad it could be.
My left hand(fretting) is the one that causes most discomfort as far as playing goes,I get deep aching in my wrist and the meat of my thumb, pinky is about as useful as a big toe for chording,I have hardly any reach or mobility with it.
My hands (and left hip) started bothering me in my early 20's,to the point where I pretty much stopped playing for almost 10 years.
Got back into it again with the advent of internet ,DAW and forums,just playing for myself at home.
I'm coming off another layoff(only about a year this time),hope it lasts for a while
These days I have found having a variety of neck shapes and profiles allows me to find one that doesn't hurt as much as the others at least on some days.
I was given a mandolin a month or two ago,after playing on it for a while just about any guitar feels huge.
I tried glucosamine for a while ,no constipation,but it gave me heart palpitations which were very unsettling,so for now it's Ibuprofen or Naproxin.

Best of luck to all afflicted


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## Dorian2

Just to pitch in with playing on the left leg. I'm lucky enough (or maybe young enough), not to have thae arthritis issue or sore back except on very few occasions. But I solidly support practicing on the left leg. I also suggest it strongly to my students....for a couple of reasons. Not so much the back pain, but the ease in which you can play at a higher angle, especially if you are a noob. It also benefits them as they typically use their right foot to tap the beat (when I tell them to) as they play if a metronome is not handy....don't want that guitar bouncing up and down on your leg while you're keeping time, right. Makes it kinda even more difficult to play an already fairly difficult instrument. Haha..

I also play some Classical so this technique was presented to me early, when I was about 17 or 18. Great suggestion for the left leg there Colchar.


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## colchar

blueshores_guy said:


> The core muscle exercises came straight out of this book:
> 
> Back RX: A 15-Minute-a-Day Yoga- and Pilates-Based Program to End Low Back Pain: Hilary Hinzmann, Vijay Vad M.D.: 9781592400454: Books - Amazon.ca
> 
> The book goes through 3 separate series of exercises, varying in intensity/difficulty. My routine uses the most difficult ones only. (Took a while to work up to that point.)
> Well worth the $20 or so.
> 
> For the back muscle exercises, I'll PM you.



Thanks, consider it added to my cart. I have some other stuff to order this week so will include that when I place my order.


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## Lincoln

I play left leg too when ever I get serious about what I'm playing. Way better control. I learned it as a way to "hang on" to my Ovation while seated 

I have arthritis in both knees, (I'm on the waiting list for knee replacements) and if it wasn't for a drug called Celebrex, I wouldn't be walking. Not just for pain, it returned range of motion & ease of motion to me that had been lost for years. Might work for fingers too.


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## Bubb

I'd also agree with the classical style position ,as well as wearing the guitar higher up with a strap while standing.
Pretty much the anti Jimmy Page approach,(and god knows I love Jimmy) promotes a more comfortable playing position.
Might look unconventional but who cares ... not Rik Emmitt anyways.


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## colchar

Lincoln said:


> I play left leg too when ever I get serious about what I'm playing. Way better control.


I am noticing that too, that I have much better control when playing on my left leg. I am still adjusting, but I am liking it thus far.

My Tele sits comfortably enough in that position and my SG is even more comfortable. That guitar is set up for slide so I don't play it as much as I do my Tele. I have those two (SG for slide and Tele for everything standard) and thought that I was done with GAS but I am now thinking of grabbing another guitar so that I can have a humbucker equipped guitarfor standard playing to go along with the single coil equipped Tele. Now that I have made this switch I think that next guitar will be another SG.





> I have arthritis in both knees, (I'm on the waiting list for knee replacements) and if it wasn't for a drug called Celebrex, I wouldn't be walking. Not just for pain, it returned range of motion & ease of motion to me that had been lost for years. Might work for fingers too.



My Mum has taken that for arthritis for years.


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## Rick31797

My brother fretting hand has arthritis and he has not been playing for awhile, he got a corisone shot the other day, and it really has helped him, he is now playing again..


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## BRXM

I have arthritis in both hands, and both hands have been broken twice, my thumbs and left wrist. I have arthritis everywhere these days and know what you are dealing with. I use a couple of different things to relieve pain. You can do an exercise where you put the thumb of your left hand between the knuckles of the little finger and ring finger of the right hand and the first two fingers of the left hand on the back of the right hand, between the same knuckles. Rock this area back and forth, you are trying to gently separate the knuckles with this massage. Do this between all the finger and also with the thumb between the thumb and the back and front of the hand. Reverse and do the other hand. This is a Chinese massage technique for elderly people and it reduces the cramping and pain caused by arthritis in your hands so they can still use chopsticks when older. One of the things that causes the pain is your hands tend to compress by being used during the day and when you go to play guitar, it hurts like hell because they are all cramped up but you don't notice until you start playing because you are used to this as normal. We all have this problem, most just don't notice it until they are older.

Second, I use either "Wood Lock" or "White Lotus" Medicated Balm. Its available in any Chinese herbalist or most big grocery stores. These take away pain of arthritis, bruises, cuts, and just about anything. I crushed my middle fingers in a garage door once, cracked two bones, and went inside and covered my hand in Wood Lock ointment, wrapped it in bandages and immobilized it. The next day, my fingers were fractured, but I didn't even have a bruise, and I could move the fingers. That's a miracle, because the fingers were cracked and I couldn't play guitar for 2 months. 

I have severe arthritis and osteo-necrosis, which is the worst form of arthritis. Its so bad, I'm not supposed to be able to do anything, and even at 58 and all crippled up, I can play pretty damn fast, and I use wood and bone picks that don't flex. I'm an 80's rock/metal player, and play RATT, Motley Crue, Kix, Aerosmith, Queen, etc. so I have to be able to play reasonably fast.

BTW, use a bone or wood pick. Holding a thin, flimsy plastic pick, especially a very thin one is very hard on your arthritic fingers. You don't drop bone or wood picks because they are porous and don't cause you to sweat. That does make a big difference. Colchar, If you can't find one, or can't find any that are reasonably priced, PM me and I will help you out.
Hope this helps.


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## colchar

BRXM said:


> I have arthritis in both hands, and both hands have been broken twice, my thumbs and left wrist. I have arthritis everywhere these days and know what you are dealing with. I use a couple of different things to relieve pain. You can do an exercise where you put the thumb of your left hand between the knuckles of the little finger and ring finger of the right hand and the first two fingers of the left hand on the back of the right hand, between the same knuckles. Rock this area back and forth, you are trying to gently separate the knuckles with this massage. Do this between all the finger and also with the thumb between the thumb and the back and front of the hand. Reverse and do the other hand. This is a Chinese massage technique for elderly people and it reduces the cramping and pain caused by arthritis in your hands so they can still use chopsticks when older. One of the things that causes the pain is your hands tend to compress by being used during the day and when you go to play guitar, it hurts like hell because they are all cramped up but you don't notice until you start playing because you are used to this as normal. We all have this problem, most just don't notice it until they are older.
> 
> Second, I use either "Wood Lock" or "White Lotus" Medicated Balm. Its available in any Chinese herbalist or most big grocery stores. These take away pain of arthritis, bruises, cuts, and just about anything. I crushed my middle fingers in a garage door once, cracked two bones, and went inside and covered my hand in Wood Lock ointment, wrapped it in bandages and immobilized it. The next day, my fingers were fractured, but I didn't even have a bruise, and I could move the fingers. That's a miracle, because the fingers were cracked and I couldn't play guitar for 2 months.
> 
> I have severe arthritis and osteo-necrosis, which is the worst form of arthritis. Its so bad, I'm not supposed to be able to do anything, and even at 58 and all crippled up, I can play pretty damn fast, and I use wood and bone picks that don't flex. I'm an 80's rock/metal player, and play RATT, Motley Crue, Kix, Aerosmith, Queen, etc. so I have to be able to play reasonably fast.
> 
> BTW, use a bone or wood pick. Holding a thin, flimsy plastic pick, especially a very thin one is very hard on your arthritic fingers. You don't drop bone or wood picks because they are porous and don't cause you to sweat. That does make a big difference. Colchar, If you can't find one, or can't find any that are reasonably priced, PM me and I will help you out.
> Hope this helps.



Thanks.

I don't use bone or wood picks but have switched to a very thick (2.0 gauge) plastic, jazz sized pick from Dunlop. It is this one here:






But I am not sure that picks will make a difference because there have been some developments since I first posted this thread. It turns out that I don't have arthritis in my picking hand wrist, I have two other problems. The first is a TFCC tear. The second is that my ulnar bone is sitting proud - it is not sitting in my wrist properly (it is sitting up and out).

I broke the radial bone in that arm when I was a teenager and my orthopedic surgeon thinks that it didn't grow properly after that. The problem is that the ulnar bone did continue to grow properly and is now longer than the radial bone, which is why it isn't sitting in the wrist properly.

I am now wearing a wrist brace much of the time, but find that my wrist often hurts more when I take it off. But I am still wearing it because the other option is surgery. During that they will have to go in, repair the tear (the easy part of the surgery), break my ulnar bone, cut a piece of it out, pull the remainder down and sit it back in my wrist properly, and then insert a metal plate and screws to join the two pieces of the ulnar bone back together.

As you can probably guess, I am not too high on that idea and am hoping for another alternative. I am having another MRI on the wrist on June 2nd and will see the orthopedic surgeon again a little while after that.

At least I am no longer working in PR as I was when I started this thread. I have gone back to academia and have resumed teaching as a college professor so I am typing much less than I used to although I obviously still need to use my right hand to write and type, just to a lesser degree now.

And according to my orthopedic surgeon, it turns out that many of the things that I was doing in the belief that they would help my wrist, were actually making it worse. She also advocated bracing in some fashion. She doesn't play guitar, but plays piano so is familiar with music/musicians. As she said, there is a reason that classical players have been bracing for centuries.

Thinking about picking, I have never been completely comfortable with a pick. I find playing with fingers to be much more natural and comfortable. I also like the tactile connection to the guitar that you experience when playing with your fingers. If you look at the video I posted at the start of this thread, when I play with my fingers I tend to play much like that guy did (sadly, he drowned last summer and is no longer with us). I use my thumb for downstrokes and my index finger for upstrokes. I haven't quite worked out a consistent strumming method, but am sure that would come fairly quickly if I bothered to concentrate on it.

I have never consistently worked on playing with my fingers, I have just experimented with it, but maybe I need to stop everything else and try it for a while. Perhaps I should speak to my orthopedic surgeon first and see what she thinks. As I said above, I use my thumb for downstrokes and my index finger for upstrokes but I am completely open to also using my middle finger, or my middle and ring fingers. But I don't want to do patterns like they do in normal fingerstyle, I just want to use my fingers to pluck the strings and play normal rock and blues (I once read something in which someone asked Jeff Beck about his technique and his response was that he didn't have one, he simply used whichever finger was most convenient). If I remember correctly, Ritchie Blackmore also plays with his fingers, if not all the time then quite often. If I could develop some sort of finger playing technique, regardless of how many fingers it utilized, that allowed me to play comfortably then I would be more than happy to switch.


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## BRXM

I understand your situation is very different than mine, however, I think my suggestions on the Chinese ointment will definitely help you. I recently(last week) sprained my right wrist badly and popped the bone out of my wrist as well. The Wood Lock ointment and just wrapping my wrist with a bandage to immobilize it had the pain and swelling gone in 2 days and about 5 days later, I have almost all movement back, however, I have to buy some Chinese Bao Ding Balls to do physiotherapy on my hand to ensure its healed properly. You may want to consider these balls as well, as they are very good for people with hand problems. The exercises cause the hand to reset itself in place and makes healing much quicker.

My offer is still open if you change your mind. 
Cheers,


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## Lola

Robert1950 said:


> I have a cast iron stomach. No meds have ever upset me. I used Voltaren orally for a heel spur for a couple of weeks a number of years ago. No side effects and it worked wonders. However I do monitor my blood pressure and have a kidney function test done whenever I have my physical done - mostly because I ate Ibuprofen like candy for the arthritis for a few years until the side effects started to become more publically known.


Ibuprofen is a toxic cesspool if taken regularily. We were told by our doctor to use it very sparingly! If I have a migraine I have to take it. It takes the edge off of the dehabilitating pain! My husband was taking a lot if it.What's your schedule looking like for June? 

I have very mild arthritis in my hands but it hasn't affected my playing just yet. Thank god.

However, I had carpal tunnel surgery on my right hand. My left hand has the same symptomatic problems as my right did before my surgery. I have tingling sensation in my elbow and it radiates right down to my hand!

I have also had ulnar reattaching surgery! It was causing a lot of discomfort. 

Getting older just sucks hockey pucks. You just have to learn how to adapt!


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## colchar

BRXM said:


> I understand your situation is very different than mine, however, I think my suggestions on the Chinese ointment will definitely help you. I recently(last week) sprained my right wrist badly and popped the bone out of my wrist as well. The Wood Lock ointment and just wrapping my wrist with a bandage to immobilize it had the pain and swelling gone in 2 days and about 5 days later, I have almost all movement back


I will check that out. Where, specifically, do you get it? I'm in Brampton too so can easily hit the same store you do.




> My offer is still open if you change your mind.



Thanks. Give me a couple of days to experiment with playing with my fingers to see how that feels. Once I have done that I will decide whether I will continue using picks. If I do, I will take you up on that.


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## BRXM

You can probably get it at Star Wind Chinese Grocery store near Westwood Mall in Brampton. They have a counter near the door that sells all kinds of herbalist stuff. Or you can get it at the Chinese Mall on Dundas in Mississauga near Tomken and Cawthra road. You can get the Bao Ding Balls at the Chinese Mall as well. I highly recommend them for physio of the hands. They helped reset my radius bone in my wrist in two days, and are taking a lot of pain away from my busted up right thumb.

FYI, I'm not in Brampton anymore. I haven't changed my info yet, but I will still send you the picks as promised.


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## BSTheTech

Thought I had rheumatoid arthritis in my pick hand. Pain and swelling. My grandfather had it bad so I figured my guitar strangling days were coming to an end. Just got the tests back and it's gout. Explains the kidney stones. On meds and things are improving. Looks like I can continue to bother the neighbours for a few more years. If your not sure, get tested.


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## WristWidget-DeAnne

_The first is a TFCC tear. The second is that my ulnar bone is sitting proud - it is not sitting in my wrist properly (it is sitting up and out).

I broke the radial bone in that arm when I was a teenager and my orthopedic surgeon thinks that it didn't grow properly after that. The problem is that the ulnar bone did continue to grow properly and is now longer than the radial bone, which is why it isn't sitting in the wrist properly.

I am now wearing a wrist brace much of the time, but find that my wrist often hurts more when I take it off. But I am still wearing it because the other option is surgery. During that they will have to go in, repair the tear (the easy part of the surgery), break my ulnar bone, cut a piece of it out, pull the remainder down and sit it back in my wrist properly, and then insert a metal plate and screws to join the two pieces of the ulnar bone back together.

As you can probably guess, I am not too high on that idea and am hoping for another alternative. I am having another MRI on the wrist on June 2nd and will see the orthopedic surgeon again a little while after that._​I'm getting to this party a little late. I just posted a blog article about positive ulnar variance on our website, wristwidget.com TFCC tears can be very difficult to diagnose through MRI or X-ray as you have noticed. However there is a 100% diagnostic test you can do at home with a non-digital scale and some sport tape. The video link is on the home page. I hope I'm not violating any policies because our goal is to heal wrists. The positive ulnar variance is related to the TFCC injury and may not need surgery. Wendy, the inventor of the wristwidget has 25 years experience working exclusively with hands and wrists. Your pain is from the rotation of the ulnar and radius. Please stop by the website and do the test. Send your results to Wendy... and/ or join the *TFCC and Ulnar-sided wrist pain group* on Facebook for professional TFCC specific advice... before you have surgery.


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