# Improvising versus noodling



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I like to work on my skills for improvising while trying very hard not to make it seem like aimless noodling. 
Just wondering what others do to work on this skill?


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Play unfamiliar backing tracks, get the chords and stay on target. Make "verses" or whatever you want to call it but travel with the song, don't just wank. Whe it comes back to the top of a phrase, so should you. That kind of stuff.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Mark Brown said:


> Play unfamiliar backing tracks, get the chords and stay on target. Make "verses" or whatever you want to call it but travel with the song, don't just wank. Whe it comes back to the top of a phrase, so should you. That kind of stuff.


Yes I kind of take that approach as one of my methods. I do like to practice with backtracks. I'll play for a while with very basic riffs, trying to be tasteful, until I get confident enough to put some well (and sparsely) placed "wank" type licks.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

The best thing you can really do is not think a lot. That might seem really useless to say but it just is really easy to become methodical/rhythmic when doing improvising when sometimes that is what one is trying to escape.

I dont know your goals, but I know a bit about your ability. I would be hard pressed to think your ability is holding you back so then more than anything it becomes a mental exercise.

Myself, it is all I know how to do lol 
Someday I might even learn to do it well


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Mark Brown said:


> The best thing you can really do is not think a lot.


In the past whenever I tended to "not think alot" I'd be in danger of aimless noodling. I've had better luck being more purposeful and think about what's happening in the song. 
I know with the originals I play in the band I'm in I play all the signature licks and for the solos most of what I play is from the recorded version with some improvisation on some solos. If I improvise part of a solo and happen to find something that really works, as good or better than what was recorded, I tend to keep it and play it the same way. 
I find what keeps me from aimless wondering or noodling with cover songs is to learn the solo from the record in at least the basic structure and improvise within that framework. 
The worst if the band I'm in takes a request for say an old standard like "Mustang Sally", well as its been overplayed in just about every band "ad nauseam", its really easy to further brutalize it with noodling and wanking that tends to stray from anything musical. So when it comes to something like that I'd like to get more mentally aware to improvise something to atleast give the solo section of the song some direction. 

These 2 particular recordings that I did, the first one I worked out the solo ahead of time, no improvising. Although the slide work I did improvise. I just put the slide in everywhere and the engineer decided what to keep. 
On the second song that was a totally improvised solo.


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## Larrivee (Nov 16, 2014)

Comments from the blind to the sighted (because I'm pretty sure your response to my suggestions will be of the "Duh!" variety):

when the chord changes, change your noodling to the notes in key of the chord (though all Mick Taylor's tasteful licks and his solo in Dead Flowers are in D Maj regardless of the chord changes so so much for that theory)
play the melody (and in and around the melody)

Hey, I should try this!!


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Now I make the understanding better. You want to improve playing "inside" of things. I'm no help there lol!

Since we are on the subject though, a really fun improvisational exercise is to pick 3 or 4 notes, I dont like to work with 4 in series of a scale bit you do you... then build a melody/phrasing off only those 4 notes. Then expand them. I like to use the octaves at first, then add a 5th unique note and keep going. It can be a fun way to "limit" yourself while driving creativity in rhythm and phrasing since you can't just wank your way out of it.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Larrivee said:


> Comments from the blind to the sighted (because I'm pretty sure your response to my suggestions will be of the "Duh!" variety):
> 
> when the chord changes, change your noodling to the notes in key of the chord (though all Mick Taylor's tasteful licks and his solo in Dead Flowers are in D Maj regardless of the chord changes so so much for that theory)
> play the melody (and in and around the melody)
> ...


Both your points are spot on. Yes maybe you don't think about the scale structure in each chord of the song always but I think for the most part you do. And I agree that getting the melody of the song involved will help.
These points come down to really having to think about what you're doing when playing live.


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

guitarman2 said:


> Just wondering what others do to work on this skill?


For me the difference between practicing and noodling is about paying attention to what's happening.
I know when talking about improvisation some folks have that romantic idea that you're not thinking about it, it's just feel... and that's not completely false, but it's not 100% true either because improvising and working on improvisation are two different things.

As always, it starts by knowing what needs to be worked on: vocabulary, technique, dynamic, speed... usually when we work on improvisation it's because we expect some improvement.

What do you play ? and what do you want to improve ?


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## jimmythegeek (Apr 17, 2012)

I like to start by picking a key that I never play in. I then set a time limit and a goal (work on chromaticism etc).

Another approach I like is taking a tune that you know really well and messing with the chords. For example, I might limit myself to using the low E, the D, the G, and the B. I then have to play the tune and voice the chords on only those strings. Maybe it is only 2 strings but they can’t be next to each other. If I want to work a rhythmic component in then I will pick a pattern from one of my old drum method books (Ted Reed’s Syncopation for the Modern Drummer is great for this) and use that as my strum/pluck pattern. I might even make silly rules like “the root can be anywhere BUT on the first string that you fret” etc.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

There's an old tip that involves singing what you're playing. I used to hate it. But it doesn't mean "become George Benson". It's more about playing the melody in your head with intention and with pauses (breaths) and phrasing (a musical thought). Sure, you can have bursts where you bust out your favourite licks, but the overall thread is there.

It's also helpful to think of improvisation as spontaneous composition. Guitar solos ideally should have a beginning, middle (climax) and end, just like a composition.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Wow. Some good thoughts here. Thanks for this everyone. Hopefully there's more.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

guitarman2 said:


> I like to work on my skills for improvising while trying very hard not to make it seem like aimless noodling.
> Just wondering what others do to work on this skill?


What's the difference?

I would say the difference would be that noodling has no dynamics. It's just the same all the way through. There's no peaks and valleys. No crescendos.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

I read the thread title and it reminded me of this thought I've had:

Noodling is a bunch of little ideas one after the other, better improvising has longer ideas or ideas that take longer to execute, maybe one idea that is reused or reinterpreted over different parts of the song.

I remember seeing a local guitarist the first time I noticed that development in him, it was so much more enjoyable to listen to him, an idea would start in bar 1 and continue through key changes and being hit with different chords into bar 7.

I have the Joe Pass Virtuoso albums, I and II may be the most well regarded. His runs are very long. If I were to try to sound like Joe Pass on those albums I imagine I would choose to start on a particular note of the first chord, end on a particular note in the last chord, use a few key changes to get there and target some note against a chord in the middle.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

Derek_T said:


> For me the difference between practicing and noodling is about paying attention to what's happening.


In a great Jazz band the soloist is always playing off the other musicians, the drummer might introduce a rhythmic element or the piano might use chords with notes that suggest alternate keys.


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

by understanding music theory you are essentially "noodling constructively". Which by the way is another term for improvising in my books


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Guncho said:


> What's the difference?
> 
> I would say the difference would be that noodling has no dynamics. It's just the same all the way through. There's no peaks and valleys. No crescendos.


I agree and would add that improvising by noodling it seems like the solo doesn't really go anywhere and lacks a musical quality.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Call and response.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

I tend to noodle using a melody that I make up as I go but I incorporate it into chords in some kind of simple progression. Like forcing yourself to include harmony and rhythm into it as well as the melody. I try not to noodle aimlessly.


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## Paul M (Mar 27, 2015)

Wardo said:


> Call and response.


Related thought..... I think that the best music is a conversation. If the improvised solo leaves no space for the rest of the musicians, it becomes a more like a speech than a dialogue. 

The saying is "Acting is listening." I think that's true in music too. I used to play in a guitar/sax duo. I was the rhythm section, the horn played all the melodies and solos. To keep it interesting, I would often change keys in the improv sections. I'm not the greatest by any stretch, but I can force a key change at will. The sax player was forced to listen to me, and adjust on the fly. He never understood the theory as well as me, but he sure learned to hear a ii-V-I at any point in any song.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

I noodle to a backing track to get a feel for it then I try to develop a theme. It can just be a cool riff or it could be several bars. It could even be just arpeggios. I then expand on the theme, then comeback to it, then expand, etc etc. I don’t change scales for the chord but I do target chord tones using whatever scale I decide to play in.


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## Pat James (5 mo ago)

The difference between improvising and noodling is that when you are improvising, the people around you don't want to smack your hands with a ruler.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

I think its analogous to the concept of "going somewhere" vs "being somewhere" and how the two intersect. There are many uses for a noodle but it requires purpose or an induced motive; it needs to be coming from somewhere and going somewhere. That place being the jurisdiction of whatever chosen style you are playing in; there are certain things that are acceptable or not acceptable in a given situation; some choices which more clearly describe what is happening in the music or the opposite. 
So I think improvisation is beholden to that cyclic-ear which engages and disengages itself as our attention shifts across the music. I think it's a level of danger or instability that really makes interesting music, and further, I think everyone has a tolerance for how much nonsense their ear can withstand before requiring some cohesion...that drive towards cohesion from chaos is the spirit of improvisation.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

What they said: Play the melody.

You should be able to play the melody of the song at will. If you can't, then either you don't know the song or your technique is such that you can't play what your mind intends and you're just moving your fingers around. And that's noodling.

No one ever got fired for playing the tune in a break.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

I think the discussion is interesting. 

There's something to be said about playing the rights things but sounding trite. I think it's a double-edge of practicing things a certain way for a long time. I'm not sure how people feel about that. Afterall, we are largely retreading ground/reusing material until it becomes something malleable and serviceable to music.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Noodling: A pejorative term denoting mindless stringing of long groups of notes together with little to no attention to intention or context.
Improvisation: An inventive, creative yet intentional construction of note/chord progressions designed to accentuate or embellish the melody of a given song.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

nonreverb said:


> Noodling: A pejorative term denoting mindless stringing of long groups of notes together with little to no attention to intention or context.
> Improvisation: An inventive, creative yet intentional construction of note/chord progressions designed to accentuate or embellish the melody of a given song.


Noodling = Babbling.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

Hammerhands said:


> Noodling = Babbling.


Or mumbling.


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## dolphinstreet (Sep 11, 2006)

This has been mentioned already but "follow the chords" is what I do. It doesn't mean I have to play arpeggios or chord tones only for every single chord, but I want my playing to sound like I'm aware of what the chords are behind me as they change throughout the progression. Most of all, I'm trying to create melodies on the spot; melodies that fit into the chords I'm playing over. Regardless of whether the line I'm playing has 14 notes or only 3, it's still a melody and I keep trying to create interesting/beautiful/cool ones, to get the listener's attention. It's always a work in progress.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

dolphinstreet said:


> This has been mentioned already but "follow the chords" is what I do. It doesn't mean I have to play arpeggios or chord tones only for every single chord, but I want my playing to sound like I'm aware of what the chords are behind me as they change throughout the progression. Most of all, I'm trying to create melodies on the spot; melodies that fit into the chords I'm playing over. Regardless of whether the line I'm playing has 14 notes or only 3, it's still a melody and I keep trying to create interesting/beautiful/cool ones, to get the listener's attention. It's always a work in progress.


To expand: "follow the chords" means fitting the current chord _as you travel melodically to the next chord and the following chords to the end of the phrase._


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

Doug Gifford said:


> To expand: "follow the chords" means fitting the current chord _as you travel melodically to the next chord and the following chords to the end of the phrase._


To double expand: I think part of "follow the chord" idea is lost when you reduce it to fitting the current chord and moving to the next only. A more general meaning would be being aware of the current harmony and melody.
Sometimes you can ignore chords that act as embellishment only, or conversely you can play chords that are not there as a way to add tension before you resolve.
I think the key is to be aware of the options available but then you make the musical choice in the moment.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

I think that's a useful distinction. In a glib way, it's the distinction between "playing" or "reciting" music.


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## dolphinstreet (Sep 11, 2006)

Yeah when I said "follow the chords" (in plural), I meant the melodic line I'm trying to create will continue as long as I want it to, whether that's over 1 or several chords.


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