# Have to play within my limits



## Robert1950

Imagine a guy who is not built for running the 100 metre dash. He is in very good shape, works out, has strong muscular legs, but can only run it in 18 seconds at best. He is 5’7”, thick bodied and his legs are short. (Not me. it’s for an analogy) Olympians can do it in just under 10 seconds. Imagine now that he has good form in high jump, but he can never get close enough to qualify for high school regionals.

I can best describe my fret board hand as small with short fingers, a very short thumb and a dwarf pinky. Or a <Austrian Accent On> A Weak puny little girly man hand <Austrian Accent Off> .

I don’t have the speed to shred and at my age (retired), I doubt I ever will. In high school I failed typing because I just couldn’t type fast without making a shitload of mistakes. (It was a requirement that year – still the most useful course I took in high school). At 20-25 wpm, at the most, I was fine. Not near good enough for typist job, but more than good enough that I never had to have the secretary at work do it for me. Mind you, I could run the 100 metre in under 18 seconds, but that is not the point.

Trying to finger *some* chords is just impossible. My pinky just can reach that note or reach that far without muting the string I don’t want to mute (just can’t jump that high without knocking over the bar). An example just how that limitation Example an Eb+7 or E aug 7 (not that I would ever play that chord):










So I just work on the music my hand and fingers can handle. At least the arthritis is in my knees and and not in my hands. But the sleep apnea and insomnia does affect my attention span and slows the learning new things down. And on and on and on …...


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## John Fisher

If it makes you feel better, I have massive hands, with fat fingers and cant shred either. Opposite end of the spectrum , same result


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## Wardo

Django and Tony were both missing fingers or parts thereof.

Pull your own fingers out of your ass and do something with what you’ve got.


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## cboutilier

If you can't play some chords, play different ones. Avoid jazz.


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## John Fisher

yep , true, i just move elsewhere on the board


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## Kerry Brown

cboutilier said:


> If you can't play some chords, play different ones. Avoid jazz.


I agree with this except the avoid jazz. I am not a flashy or fast player but I have learned that there is no need to play music exactly as it’s written or as the original was played. You can always substitute something that sounds good and adds to the song. I believe music is to be interpreted by the player as it moves them. I rarely play complicated chords because that’s not what I hear in my head. Even in jazz there is no need to complicate things unless that is where your muse takes you. Partial chords and inversions can take you a long way without stretching your fingers into impossible positions. That said I started trying to learn the Mickey Baker jazz book in my teens and I still can’t get past page four.


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## greco

Kerry Brown said:


> That said I started trying to learn the Mickey Baker jazz book in my teens and I still can’t get past page four.


You made it all the way to page 4!!
I am SO impressed! 
I'm am honestly doubtful that Mickey Baker was actually able to play anything past page 5!


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## Merlin

Look at Hank Marvin; he’s made an entire career out of guitar instrumentals that are very distinctly non-shreddy.


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## Robert1950

Wardo said:


> Django and Tony were both missing fingers or parts thereof.
> 
> Pull your own fingers out of your ass and do something with what you’ve got.


Bugger the fuck off.


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## Kerry Brown

greco said:


> You made it all the way to page 4!!
> I am SO impressed!
> I'm am honestly doubtful that Mickey Baker was actually able to play anything past page 5!


This guy does a pretty good job of playing the lessons from the Mickey Baker book.

rob mackillop mickey baker - YouTube


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## Mooh

The Mickey Baker book bores me to tears. I end up noodling.

Playing within one's limitations is a fact of life. When I was a young man I was lightning fast and derivative as hell. I'm way slower now but way more thoughtful and original. Speed mattered to me then, but doesn't so much now. There's lots of music that suits me anyway.

Nobody notices it but my left third (ring) finger has a mobility issue where the first (distal) joint doesn't really bend or flex, it seems locked, and I've had some arthritis pains along the way. My massage therapist helps me.

There are lots of chord fingerings that trouble me, but my solution is to leave appropriate notes out.


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## hammerstein

I'm sure my hands would be a great size for shredding.. it'll never happen though.

Play what you can, as long as you're still having fun with it that's all that matters.


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## greco

hammerstein said:


> Play what you can, as long as you're still having fun with it that's all that matters.


@Robert1950 Print the above in a large font, frame it and hang it wherever you play your guitars.


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## Mooh

This is a worthwhile topic. Lots of folks don't attempt things because they're afraid they'll not do well, or they're just afraid of the unknown. (I know that's not the case with the OP, but limitations are manifested in many ways.)

I had an elderly student several years ago who had the hands of a hard labourer. They were little more than mallets as he could barely open his hands, but he had a death grip. In retirement he wanted to learn to play and sing. Why he waited until he was over 80, I don't know. We tuned his guitar to open G and he strummed big fat barred major chords, and was happy enough playing old country and folk songs. When he didn't show up for a scheduled lesson I called and got his wife. He'd died that week, and I was told he had been very happy with his newfound guitar abilities, such as they were. His widow was happy because he'd been happy. 

The simple things.


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## bw66

Rosanne Cash says that her dad, Johnny, always said that your limitations define your style. It would seem that I have a lot of style.


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## bw66

Mooh said:


> This is a worthwhile topic. Lots of folks don't attempt things because they're afraid they'll not do well, or they're just afraid of the unknown. (I know that's not the case with the OP, but limitations are manifested in many ways.)
> 
> I had an elderly student several years ago who had the hands of a hard labourer. They were little more than mallets as he could barely open his hands, but he had a death grip. In retirement he wanted to learn to play and sing. Why he waited until he was over 80, I don't know. We tuned his guitar to open G and he strummed big fat barred major chords, and was happy enough playing old country and folk songs. When he didn't show up for a scheduled lesson I called and got his wife. He'd died that week, and I was told he had been very happy with his newfound guitar abilities, such as they were. His widow was happy because he'd been happy.
> 
> The simple things.


THAT is a great story! Thanks, on several levels.


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## bw66

Duplicate.


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## greco

bw66 said:


> Rosanne Cash says that her dad, Johnny, always said that your limitations define your style. It would seem that I have a lot of style.


Does your "style" have a name?

Mine is improvisational, fake, free jazz guitar. 
The term impresses friends immensely.


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## bw66

greco said:


> Does your "style" have a name?


Hmmm... I suppose I should work on that. Beats practicing. :-D


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## Lola

hammerstein said:


> I'm sure my hands would be a great size for shredding.. it'll never happen though.
> 
> Play what you can, as long as you're still having fun with it that's all that matters.


Shit, I wanted to desperately play really fast but I just don’t have what it takes to be a killer solo guitarist so it’s off to rhythm land for me. In my mind rhythm is just as important as lead guitar! I make little tiny leaps ahead and I am good with that!

It’s all about having so much damned fun that you just can’t contain yourself!

I am at work for another 8 minutes and can hardly wait to get home and play even if it’s a shitty attempt at some solo. I just strap on my guitar and groove with music even though my shitty solo doesn’t sound that good because of my lack of speed and not nimble fingers. I don’t care anymore because fun is what keeps me obsessed and not overthinking or worrying about shit that doesn’t really matter anyway.

Robert don’t worry about the shit you can’t do but have fun with what you can do!

On my way home to pick up and play my sweet baby!


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## sambonee

Kerry Brown said:


> I agree with this except the avoid jazz. I am not a flashy or fast player but I have learned that there is no need to play music exactly as it’s written or as the original was played. *You can always substitute something that sounds good and adds to the song. I believe music is to be interpreted by the player as it moves them*. I rarely play complicated chords because that’s not what I hear in my head. Even in jazz there is no need to complicate things unless that is where your muse takes you. Partial chords and inversions can take you a long way without stretching your fingers into impossible positions. That said I started trying to learn the Mickey Baker jazz book in my teens and I still can’t get past page four.


Wise words my friend. This is my _motus operand_
After reading some more, I feel compelled to say the following.

Playing fast :

Not being able to play fast is a blessing. The reason being is because your hand will never take over from your mind. Secondly, you are forced to consider each note and give it a great value. Most guitarists today cannot do this.

When I started playing guitar at the age of 15, I had been playing classical piano for eight years. I craved playing solos from Metallica and fast Jimmy page riffs. 

Given that I knew this was not possible, I had to learn to play melody. This has now become one of my strongest attributes. now after many years I can play faster, however I noticed that most guitarist are incapable of composing melodies when the improvise.

I suggest to anybody wanting to improve their solos to learn the top 20 of their favorite moderately paced classical, bossa nova, jazz melodies slowly. Play solos with all notes and have thoughts. 


Finally use 3 to 5 notes only for a solo and work on the rhythm as if it was a drum set. It’s much easier to play rhythmic syncopation on one or two notes that it is to play a ripper line that means very little. 

My Musical philosophy for many years about soloing.

Enjoy


Small hands. Get a 3/4 electric. It’ll floor you. And push you.


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## greco

sambonee said:


> I suggest to anybody wanting to improve their solos to learn the top 20 of *their favourite moderately paced* classical, bossa nova, jazz melodies slowly.


Could you please give the names of some examples of your favourites that were helpful? Thanks.


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## Wardo

I remember coming to the same conclusion back in the 70s when listening to Martin Barr from Tull. He didn’t play very fast but his solos were melodic.

It’s like “ok, you can play a million notes per second but can you play just one note and have it mean something.”


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## fretzel

But how do we ever truly find out our limits unless we constantly try and push them? 

Some of my favourites moments in a guitar solo come when you know that the guitar player is at their edge and it seems that it is about to turn into a train wreck but they manage to save themselves. 

I have small hands as well. I certainly can’t shred like I used to. But I don’t put in anywhere near the time I did at one point. One summer we moved to a small town and seeing as I didn’t know many people I would play over 5 hours a day. Through my 20’s I would easily play at least 2 hours a day or more. 

Now I have become very set in my ways. I am trying to get a grip on economy picking. It is not coming quickly or easily. I don’t believe that I can’t do it. I know it is because I am not putting in the time it requires.


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## cboutilier

sambonee said:


> Wise words my friend. This is my _motus operand_
> After reading some more, I feel compelled to say the following.
> 
> Playing fast :
> 
> Not being able to play fast is a blessing. The reason being is because your hand will never take over from your mind. Secondly, you are forced to consider each note and give it a great value. Most guitarists today cannot do this.
> 
> When I started playing guitar at the age of 15, I had been playing classical piano for eight years. I craved playing solos from Metallica and fast Jimmy page riffs.
> 
> Given that I knew this was not possible, I had to learn to play melody. This has now become one of my strongest attributes. now after many years I can play faster, however I noticed that most guitarist are incapable of composing melodies when the improvise.
> 
> I suggest to anybody wanting to improve their solos to learn the top 20 of their favorite moderately paced classical, bossa nova, jazz melodies slowly. Play solos with all notes and have thoughts.
> 
> 
> Finally use 3 to 5 notes only for a solo and work on the rhythm as if it was a drum set. It’s much easier to play rhythmic syncopation on one or two notes that it is to play a ripper line that means very little.
> 
> My Musical philosophy for many years about soloing.
> 
> Enjoy
> 
> 
> Small hands. Get a 3/4 electric. It’ll floor you. And push you.


Even a short scale electric like a Mustang is a blast to play.


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## leftysg

sambonee said:


> Wise words my friend. This is my _motus operand_
> After reading some more, I feel compelled to say the following.
> 
> Playing fast :
> 
> Not being able to play fast is a blessing. The reason being is because your hand will never take over from your mind. Secondly, you are forced to consider each note and give it a great value. Most guitarists today cannot do this.
> 
> When I started playing guitar at the age of 15, I had been playing classical piano for eight years. I craved playing solos from Metallica and fast Jimmy page riffs.
> 
> Given that I knew this was not possible, I had to learn to play melody. This has now become one of my strongest attributes. now after many years I can play faster, however I noticed that most guitarist are incapable of composing melodies when the improvise.
> 
> I suggest to anybody wanting to improve their solos to learn the top 20 of their favorite moderately paced classical, bossa nova, jazz melodies slowly. Play solos with all notes and have thoughts.
> 
> 
> Finally use 3 to 5 notes only for a solo and work on the rhythm as if it was a drum set. It’s much easier to play rhythmic syncopation on one or two notes that it is to play a ripper line that means very little.
> 
> My Musical philosophy for many years about soloing.
> 
> Enjoy
> 
> 
> Small hands. Get a 3/4 electric. It’ll floor you. And push you.


I never thought I'd be learning Girl From Ipanema in simple jazz style from a YouTube vid lesson. I did and it was really quite enjoyable. Need to find a few more easy jazz tunes.


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## sambonee

Search the top most popular. Start from there 


Bossa nova Is great. Brazil is my fav tune.


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## Adcandour

Here's another one of those threads that shits on speed and glorifies "improvisation"? I get it, and I can appreciate the view, but it's a millennial mentality (and probably partially what caused it).

There are literally no limits to your playing ability - outside physical setbacks like arthritis (I'll be stopping in at the stem cell facility at my folks place in this case, mind you) and time. 

Is there no emotion in something like Sergei Prokoviev 's Violin Concerto No. 1? What about the affects of Flight of the Bumblebee? That's some pretty fast shit.

My view: try to everything possible on the instrument. Shoot for 1000bpm and land and 200....all good.

My opinion: Stop kidding yourselves.


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## Lola

adcandour said:


> Here's another one of those threads that shits on speed and glorifies "improvisation"? I get it, and I can appreciate the view, but it's a millennial mentality (and probably partially what caused it).
> 
> There are literally no limits to your playing ability - outside physical setbacks like arthritis (I'll be stopping in at the stem cell facility at my folks place in this case, mind you) and time.
> 
> Is there no emotion in something like Sergei Prokoviev 's Violin Concerto No. 1? What about the affects of Flight of the Bumblebee? That's some pretty fast shit.
> 
> My view: try to everything possible on the instrument. Shoot for 1000bpm and land and 200....all good.
> 
> My opinion: Stop kidding yourselves.


Do you mean the guitarists that are considered “Generation Y”?


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## greco

adcandour said:


> My view: try to everything possible on the instrument. Shoot for 1000bpm and land and 200....all good.


My (boomer) view: Shoot for what sounds best and feels comfortable to play. That is a tough enough challenge for many of us.

Want to go faster...no reason not to try ...if that is the goal/desire.


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## Adcandour

Lola said:


> Do you mean the guitarists that are considered “Generation Y”?


Generation X (for the most part) allowed Generation Y. The mentality doesn't limit itself to guitar playing.

Generation Z are a bunch of fuckwits that will need to stick to the kazoo. Or bass.


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## Adcandour

greco said:


> My (boomer) view: Shoot for what sounds best and feels comfortable to play. That is a tough enough challenge for many of us.
> 
> Want to go faster...no reason not to try ...if that is the goal/desire.


I don't fully understand what you mean. If you could elaborate and define what 'sounds best' and 'feels comfortable' to you, that would be appreciated.

If_ I_ had to say what sounds best and feels the most comfortable, I would say strumming one or two major chords that are easy on the hands with a 12 string. Maybe one note that's heavily laden with effects that you find beautiful? 

It's not really about just "going faster" - it's about playing guitar without being limited. Speed doesn't have to be about shredding. Just listen to Gary Moore's whirl at jazz (3:26):


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## Budda

If you want to play fast, get out that metronome.


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## Kerry Brown

Budda said:


> If you want to play fast, get out that metronome.


When I'm trying to come up with a new lick or chord progression I play around with it for days then I try recording it with a click track. It's usually down to half speed when I first try it with the click track.


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## greco

adcandour said:


> I don't fully understand what you mean. If you could elaborate and define what 'sounds best' and 'feels comfortable' to you, that would be appreciated.


I meant this to be a general comment for anyone. 
Play the genre, tones), gear, tempo...whatever... that you enjoy hearing and that is at a technical level that you feel is physically within your skill level at that time. You can change any of the above at any time.



adcandour said:


> If_ I_ had to say what sounds best and feels the most comfortable, I would say strumming one or two major chords that are easy on the hands with a 12 string. Maybe one note that's heavily laden with effects that you find beautiful?


Again, it is up to the individual. If strumming a few chords is what you enjoy most and what you find within your comfort zone of skills...perfect. Again, that remain as one's "thing" if that is one's preference 



adcandour said:


> It's not really about just "going faster" - it's about playing guitar without being limited. Speed doesn't have to be about shredding. Just listen to Gary Moore's whirl at jazz (3:26):


Gary Moore's whirl at jazz was not what I consider very "speedy" in terms of jazz lines. I'm not against speed in any way. However, I'm also totally fine with limitations that one decides to place on oneself if that is important, desired, preferred.

*And another thing...YOU spelled "Prokofiev" incorrectly. 
Don't EVER do that again. You hear!!*


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## Adcandour

greco said:


> I meant this to be a general comment for anyone.
> Play the genre, tones), gear, tempo...whatever... that you enjoy hearing and that is at a technical level that you feel is physically within your skill level at that time. You can change any of the above at any time.
> 
> 
> Again, it is up to the individual. If strumming a few chords is what you enjoy most and what you find within your comfort zone of skills...perfect. Again, that remain as one's "thing" if that is one's preference
> 
> 
> 
> Gary Moore's whirl at jazz was not what I consider very "speedy" in terms of jazz lines. I'm not against speed in any way. However, I'm also totally fine with limitations that one decides to place on oneself if that is important, desired, preferred.
> 
> *And another thing...YOU spelled "Prokofiev" incorrectly.
> Don't EVER do that again. You hear!!*


Got it. I think we're talking about two different things though.

I copied and pasted that guy's name, hahah.


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## greco

adcandour said:


> Got it. I think we're talking about two different things though.
> 
> I copied and pasted that guy's name, hahah.


It is very possible that we are discussing different but somewhat 'parallel' topics. Given that, one of us is possibly missing out on most of this thread. Likely me.

BTW...Did your son eventually listen to any classical music (we discussed in a thread in the past)? Prokofiev's (note spelling...LOL) "Peter and the Wolf" reminded me as I suggested that composition to learn about some of the sounds of specific instruments.


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## Adcandour

greco said:


> It is very possible that we are discussing different but somewhat 'parallel' topics. Given that, one of us is possibly missing out on most of this thread. Likely me.
> 
> BTW...Did your son eventually listen to any classical music (we discussed in a thread in the past)? Prokofiev's (note spelling...LOL) "Peter and the Wolf" reminded me as I suggested that composition to learn about some of the sounds of specific instruments.


My son is obsessed and listens to only two bands at the moment - the beatles and KISS. He gets excited about how Ace and Paul (Stanley) compliment each other's playing. I can't put enough emphasis into these words.


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## greco

adcandour said:


> My son is obsessed and listens to only two bands at the moment - the beatles and KISS.


Good, corny, ancient Prokofiev doesn't stand a chance. Maybe someday.


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## Wardo

greco said:


> *And another thing...YOU spelled "Prokofiev" incorrectly. Don't EVER do that again. You hear!!*


Kyphosis, Lordosis, Prokofiev - it’s all the same...lol


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## sambonee

If you can’t whistle it, it’ll be easily forgotten and less seriously taken.


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## Adcandour

sambonee said:


> If you can’t whistle it, it’ll be easily forgotten and less seriously taken.


Sure, but memory's a physical limitation. Same way we have a hard time remembering a long series of numbers.

Less seriously taken though? Now we're talking about music, and I have a hard time believing that Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu on piano is taken any less seriously than his Concerto no.1. If we approach this like we're talking about piano playing, things change, because we are guitarists and it doesn't sting our egos. We shouldn't look at a more skilled guitarist and take him less seriously that a less skilled guitarist - there's no sense in that.

People will come up with a variety of reasons/excuses to justify an inadequacy in their technical proficiency. We kid ourselves all the time, so we can stomach the pill (in pretty much every aspect of life).

I believe we all have the ability to be incredibly technical guitarists - we just don't put in the time.

The ability to write something good to whistle is a completely different skill.


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## greco

adcandour said:


> I believe we all have the ability to be incredibly technical guitarists - we just don't put in the time.


YES, YES, YES... _"Time on the instrument" 
_
Specifically, structured practice and learning from someone (or whatever) that is motivating for you. Also taking time to be immersed in listening to the genre
you are trying to learn. Obviously, it is a tremendous advantage to start at a young age.


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## greco

adcandour said:


> Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu on piano is taken any less seriously than his Concerto no.1.


You listening to a lot of classical music these days, brother? Or just more cutting and pasting ?


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## Adcandour

greco said:


> You listening to a lot of classical music these days, brother? Or just more cutting and pasting ?


Just cutting and pasting. I do know these songs, mind you (but that wouldn't have mattered). 

I'm not an avid listener of classical. I'm embarrassed to say that I listen to a lot of spa music nowadays. I find it relaxing during my morning drive. Then I listen to a talk show on my way home from work - Covino & Rich, because the classic rock channel on satellite radio sucks.


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## Wardo

adcandour said:


> The ability to write something good to whistle is a completely different skill.


I thought the whistling was intended as irony.


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## Adcandour

Wardo said:


> I thought the whistling was intended as irony.


I think so too.


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## Guest

_When they got the first pressing of a record they would play it to people they called the old greys – 
doormen in grey suits. Any song they could remember and whistle, having heard it just once or 
twice, had passed the old grey whistle test._


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## Lola

Ok a scenario for you.

Guitar player 1
Advanced level playing and theory knowledge
Same age, same skill set
mission: Flight of the bumble bee
3 months invested time learning, practicing and perfecting

Guitar player 2

Same as the above

After 3 months of rehearsing this, guitar player 2 is far superior in every way in playing this song

Is this innate talent? What is it? Natural born talent?

Their physical and mental expenditures are exactly the same. 

Just very curious.


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## Wardo

Always wondered what that meant.


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## Adcandour

I'm going to assume this is directed to me?

if I can give you a different scenario, I think it might be easier for me to explain.

If you have two kids that are identical in every way, and they decide to take guitar lessons and they put in same amount of practice.

If they have the same ability to learn paired with the same level of Drive and interest, they should stay at the same level of technical ability.

I'm just guessing, but I suspect that this would continue on until one loses Drive, gets an injury, becomes weaker or stronger, etc etc.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


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## Guest

Some are better than others.
We are not all created equal.
Reality. Rainbows and unicorns aren't going to change that.


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## Lola

adcandour said:


> I'm going to assume this is directed to me?
> 
> if I can give you a different scenario, I think it might be easier for me to explain.
> 
> If you have two kids that are identical in every way, and they decide to take guitar lessons and they put in same amount of practice.
> 
> If they have the same ability to learn paired with the same level of Drive and interest, they should stay at the same level of technical ability.
> 
> I'm just guessing, but I suspect that this would continue on until one loses Drive, gets an injury, becomes weaker or stronger, etc etc.
> 
> Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk


Not directed at you but just wanted to get ppls input into this scenario.

Is innate talent just a myth?


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## bw66

Let's face it, for most of us, myself included, our biggest limitation is discipline and focus. If any of us truly wanted to be amazing, we wouldn't be killing time on this forum. :-D


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## greco

bw66 said:


> If any of us truly wanted to be amazing, we wouldn't be killing time on this forum. :-D


SO TRUE! 
Thanks for my laugh for the day.


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## Lola

I think that we really set our own limitations.


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## Adcandour

laristotle said:


> Some are better than others.
> *We are not all created equal.*
> Reality. Rainbows and unicorns aren't going to change that.


“We were all born equal, but where we are in life now is of our own making.” - s. richards


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## Adcandour

Lola said:


> I think that we really set our own limitations.


see quote above...


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## Wardo

I don’t agree with the 10,000 hour thing.

Some people are just better at stuff than others and no amount of practice will offset that difference.


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## bw66

Some may be better after 10,000 hours than others, but no one who has put in their 10,000 hours is ever going to be tossed out of a band for their lack of ability.


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## sambonee

adcandour said:


> Sure, but memory's a physical limitation. Same way we have a hard time remembering a long series of numbers.
> 
> Less seriously taken though? Now we're talking about music, and I have a hard time believing that Chopin's Fantasie Impromptu on piano is taken any less seriously than his Concerto no.1. If we approach this like we're talking about piano playing, things change, because we are guitarists and it doesn't sting our egos. We shouldn't look at a more skilled guitarist and take him less seriously that a less skilled guitarist - there's no sense in that.
> 
> People will come up with a variety of reasons/excuses to justify an inadequacy in their technical proficiency. We kid ourselves all the time, so we can stomach the pill (in pretty much every aspect of life).
> 
> I believe we all have the ability to be incredibly technical guitarists - we just don't put in the time.
> 
> The ability to write something good to whistle is a completely different skill.


 Your comment about the Chopin pieces is true. I was more referring to improvising.

In my limited knowledge, I don’t think many shredding style guitar solos are written before hand and edited. I can be corrected on this of course.

I’m more referring to when people improvise a solo with my comment about whistling. 

Another point that I believe strongly is that, when people have limitations and effectively work around them, it becomes a part of their style. Personally, I don’t believe that my style would’ve evolved in a melodic manner had I not had difficulty with the technical aspects of the guitar when trying to play fast from the beginning. Now looking back, I do see those limitations in a certain way as a blessing. It made me think more about the notes. A perfect example is Charlie Parker. The main melodies of his compositions are they themselves quite fast. When you listen To his solos you can hear the genius, but it is quite difficult to have an impression sit in your mind due to the speed at which the notes are coming. It’s still quite euphoric for me although hard to grasp in the moment


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## Lola

Wardo said:


> I don’t agree with the 10,000 hour thing.
> 
> Some people are just better at stuff than others and no amount of practice will offset that difference.


I don’t agree with the 10,000 hr thing either. Let’s face it though, you do have to put in a shitload of hours to become proficient at most things to be even considered adequate.


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## Lola

bw66 said:


> Some may be better after 10,000 hours than others, but no one who has put in their 10,000 hours is ever going to be tossed out of a band for their lack of ability.


After 8 years of grinding away and how many hrs I have put into practicing idk. I am finally able to play comfortably with in a band knowing the chord structures that I do and using my ear for songs that I have never even played before or heard. For me that is accomplishment and one that makes me proud of my hard earned efforts. Little steps. Rome was not built in a day.

On the other hand I know someone who has been playing for 3 yrs approx and he can blow my doors off. Good for that person. I am happy with my progress so far.


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## greco

adcandour said:


> Is there no emotion in something like Sergei Prokofiev 's Violin Concerto No. 1? What about the affects of Flight of the Bumblebee? That's some pretty fast shit.


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## Lola

greco said:


>


I have followed Jennifer forever. She was a lead guitarist for Michael Jackson.


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## Guest




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## Rozz

Interesting. Not sure if you are looking for insight or just venting out of frustration, but I will offer up some helpful (I hope) advice. 

As for playing chords, if you are playing extended chords (beyond triads) I would (and do) leave out the 5th and play the 1, 3, and whatever note you are extending the harmony with....and play all of the chord tones on the top four strings (inversions too). When you are playing with other musicians, full chords take up too much musical space and lower notes tend to step into the bass player's or vocalist's range. You may have to come up with your own arrangements for songs, but you will be hitting the critical notes (with one less chubby, little finger to worry about ;-)).

I am sure you have heard this before, but If you want to improve your speed, practice playing the runs you want to burn, slowly and perfectly at first. Once you get them under your fingers to the point it is motor function the speed will come. Play to a metronome if you have a high boredom threshold, if not, use a backing track and gradually increase the tempo. It works. If you can't stretch far enough to play three-notes-per-string with the two whole steps, avoid it and just use the 1/2 step-whole step, or whole step 1/2 step patterns and shift them. If you can only stretch far enough to play pentatonic patterns, you can start by learning those licks in the style of Eric Johnson/Joe Bonamassa etc. 

It has been mentioned but there is no substitute for practice. I found I had to play a ton every day before I could achieve my goals. I always thought I was a slow learner, but I was watching a Steve Vai video on truefire.com and he said he felt that if anyone else in the world had put in the time playing guitar that he had, they would be able to come up with better stuff than him. For me that was a bit of an eye opener. You get out of it exactly what you put into it...in my case maybe a bit less. ;-)


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## Dorian2

Lola said:


> Ok a scenario for you.
> 
> Guitar player 1
> Advanced level playing and theory knowledge
> Same age, same skill set
> mission: Flight of the bumble bee
> 3 months invested time learning, practicing and perfecting
> 
> Guitar player 2
> 
> Same as the above
> 
> After 3 months of rehearsing this, guitar player 2 is far superior in every way in playing this song
> 
> Is this innate talent? What is it? Natural born talent?
> 
> Their physical and mental expenditures are exactly the same.
> 
> Just very curious.


I read a different article a while ago citing this study of music students...



> A study by Sloboda, Davidson, Howe, and Moore (1996) examined 257 young instrumentalists aged 8 to 18, playing at a variety of different levels. They found that some of the students attained high grade levels with relatively little practice, while others needed _four times_ the average practice time to attain a given grade.


Which led to this:



> If spending more time practicing is not the way to master a musical instrument, then what is? What sets apart those who do well even though they seem to spend little time with their instruments from those who spend a lot of time and still struggle? Researchers are not sure, but one part of the puzzle seems to be _quality_ of time spent practicing rather than _quantity_. Not all ways of practicing are equally effective. For example, simply playing a piece through from beginning to end was not a particularly effective way of mastering it. Going through a piece and working on the most difficult areas slowly and deliberately was a much more effective strategy. The most accomplished performers at every level also tended to have an auditory “schema” of the piece in their mind as they worked on it. They assessed their own progress against this schema during practice, sometimes recording their performances to help them judge their improvement.


Musical Skill and Deliberate Practice

After reading the original article, I changed the way I was practicing at the time to the mindset mentioned. It works. Very well.


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## Lola

Dorian2 said:


> I read a different article a while ago citing this study of music students...
> 
> 
> 
> Which led to this:
> 
> 
> 
> Musical Skill and Deliberate Practice
> 
> After reading the original article, I changed the way I was practicing at the time to the mindset mentioned. It works. Very well.


This is exactly how I practice. I take the most difficult parts and play them as slowly as I need to and then once that is accomplished I start to speed them up to the BPM of a particular song and then incorporate the trouble areas until they sound as perfect as possible with the rest of the song. 

I don’t practice because I have to, I practice because I love to. I think my mindset makes a huge difference as to how my learning processes evolve. My passion never dwindles. 

We each work differently, learn differently and have a different amount of patience. And our tolerance for imperfection or drive for perfection also varies from person to person.


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## rhh7

Rozz is right on. I bought a baritone ukelele for that very reason. It is tuned D-G-B-E, which forces me to learn all the triads and extended chords. The fingerings will transfer to the top four strings on my guitar.

My goal for this year is 30 minutes of practice every day. I have excellent lesson materials. I have recaptured beginner's mind. Back to square one : first position, one finger per fret, five major chords, simple strums in time, simple fingerpicking.


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## Lola

rhh7 said:


> Rozz is right on. I bought a baritone ukelele for that very reason. It is tuned D-G-B-E, which forces me to learn all the triads and extended chords. The fingerings will transfer to the top four strings on my guitar.
> 
> My goal for this year is 30 minutes of practice every day. I have excellent lesson materials. I have recaptured beginner's mind. Back to square one : first position, one finger per fret, five major chords, simple strums in time, simple fingerpicking.


Way to be Rhh7! You should be proud of yourself for starting over again when most ppl would say, “screw it” and just give up.


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## Lola

Dorian2 said:


> I read a different article a while ago citing this study of music students...
> 
> 
> 
> Which led to this:
> 
> 
> 
> Musical Skill and Deliberate Practice
> 
> After reading the original article, I changed the way I was practicing at the time to the mindset mentioned. It works. Very well.



Too bad we can’t double like this post!


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## dolphinstreet

Limitations are not a bad thing. Like bw66 said, they define your style. I admitted a long time ago that I would never a good shredder. I went into blues and jazz instead, and guess what? I eventually found my style, and I'm happy with the end result (like I have any choice, LOL).


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## zontar

cboutilier said:


> If you can't play some chords, play different ones. Avoid jazz.


Or create your own form of jazz that doesn't use "_*Those"*_ chords...


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## Robert1950

I'd forgotten I had posted this thread. I'm gonna have to go through this, I guess.


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## tomee2

Did you buy that Fender Jaguar yet? You know, the one with the 24" scale? The Squier versions are pretty good too... 

As for practice vs inate talent... I have twin boys. My opinion after 15 years watching what they're good at and not, some people are born with talent others have to work at it. And being good at something doesn't mean you'll love it either. The boy with perfect pitch ears that can sing any song he hears has no interest in playing music....


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## old and tryin

So if you are new(like me) how do you determine actual limitations from possibly just bad form from newness?


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## bw66

For most of us, our only real limitation is time.


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## Dorian2

old and tryin said:


> So if you are new(like me) how do you determine actual limitations from possibly just bad form from newness?


A local guitar instructor or a well established Youtube instructor can help with that. I'd suggest a local instructor for immediate feedback though. I'd think that NS has a number of very good teachers.


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## greco

bw66 said:


> For most of us, our only real limitation is time.


Yes...If you have the belief in yourself that you can overcome the limitation(s) and go about it a structured and focused manner (possibly with help from a teacher) all that remains is dedicating the time to it. I proved that to myself this past winter and I'm very pleased.


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## old and tryin

greco said:


> Yes...If you have the belief in yourself that you can overcome the limitation(s) and go about it a structured and focused manner (possibly with help from a teacher) all that remains is dedicating the time to it. I proved that to myself this past winter and I'm very pleased.


I would absolutely love to take more lessons and try it again, unfortunately it is not in the cards right now. But...I do know that I am as stubborn as hell.


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## johnnyshaka

tomee2 said:


> Did you buy that Fender Jaguar yet? You know, the one with the 24" scale? The Squier versions are pretty good too....


He did...and then I bought it from him!


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