# Klon what’s the big deal



## silvertonebetty (Jan 4, 2015)

Now first I will say I’ve never played a klon let alone saw one in person. So may someone explain why there’s such a deal with them


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

They have a little sizzle to them. Not worth the $5K I saw one selling for somewhere recently.


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## moleng1 (Mar 25, 2017)

The big deal is how stupid people are who pay more for a pedal than a really good guitar.................. Seriously??


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## Grainslayer (Sep 26, 2016)

This topic is above my pay grade🤡


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## silvertonebetty (Jan 4, 2015)

Grainslayer said:


> This topic is above my pay grade🤡


Sometimes I’d agree .


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## silvertonebetty (Jan 4, 2015)

player99 said:


> They have a little sizzle to them. Not worth the $5K I saw one selling for somewhere recently.


5 grand! That’s a falcon


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

What, if anything, the big deal is it sure as hell ain’t gonna be evident if you’re just playing in your bedroom.


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## silvertonebetty (Jan 4, 2015)

Wardo said:


> What, if anything, the big deal is it sure as hell ain’t gonna be evident if you’re just playing in your bedroom.


True that 😂


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

I think it found a niche in that it’s not quite an overdrive, and its not quite a clean boost, at a time where there wasn’t a lot of options for that on the market.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

The price seems to be the biggest deal imo.

I had a clone, an apparently close one at that, and wasn't wowed by the pedal.
I think a lot of guys use it with the gain low for a "tone enhancer".

Nothing that my Dr Scientist the Cleanness can't do, that pedal is actually more versitile.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Separate the design itself from the foolish and greedy resale prices on the used market. It's a damn good pedal, and extremely well made, but has a very specific purpose that does not suit everyone.

I had the honour of being contacted out of the blue in late 2007 by Bill, the guy who made them. He was looking for some assistance with an "amendment" to the circuit that some unnamed clients had requested, and felt he could trust me. At the time, the circuit was normally covered in epoxy, since it was his only product and he wanted to protect his I.P. He sent me two ungooped boards and a schematic diagram. One of the boards was stock, and the other was also stock, except that every single component on the board was socketed so that I (and he as well) could easily pull part X and replace it with another value to see/hear what the impact was. I built an enclosure with a stompswitch that would allow me to swap back and forth between the stock board and the socketed board so that I could audition what any changes I had made to the circuit had resulted in.

As an "overdrive pedal", I wasn't all that impressed. That's because it is NOT an "overdrive pedal" in the sense that many, if not most, players think of. It was NOT designed to deliver a particular sound, independent of the amp used. You can use a Tube Screamer with pretty much any crappy solid state amp from any era, and a sizeable chunk of players will be able to say "That sounds like he's using a Tube Screamer or clone of one". The Klon was intended to precondition the signal so as to push a tube amp already near the edge of breakup into its own desirable distortion. The overdrive is not from the pedal alone, but from the amp as "helped" by the pedal.

Why are they so stupidly expensive? Well, as the only product he had, and since he made them all himself, Bill charged somewhere south of $350, so that he could pay his rent, health insurance, etc. I said it had a very specific purpose. You could only buy them by ordering over the phone, ad Bill would engage you in a 20-30 minute conversation to find out more about your rig and playing style. I don't know if he ever outright refused anyone, but he would not encourage purchase if he felt that the pedal probably wasn't right for you in your context.

Those calls ate into his build time something fierce, so his production output could never keep up with demand. As tales of this and that high-profile player using a Klon circulated, demand grew. People found they could flip theirs for big money to people too impatient to wait 3 months on a list. Of course, none of those people got the long screening conversation with Bill. All they had was the stories on the net, and how much they admired this or that player who used one. So when they paid a higher-than-retail price, they could be very disappointed that it didn't make them sound like their hero. Their disappointment was soon eased by learning that they could flip the pedal for even more than they paid to people who were just as impatient as them. And that's how we got to them costing a few thousand on E-bay and Reverb. Bill only earned whatever profit he made on the $350 or whatever,

When it first came out in the mid-'90s, it was a revolutionary idea. There WERE boosters at the time, but there was nothing explicitly intended to preshape what you fed a tube amp so that it sounded, as one satisfied customer put it "Like my amp, only BIGGER". Since word about the Klon Centaur spread, other pedal-makers aimed for the same territory. Somewhere shortly after my unsuccessful collaboration with Bill, a group pooled their money, bought one or two, managed to "ungoop" it, and reverse-engineered the circuit. We now have all sorts of unlicensed copies from Asia and other places floating around, as well as a variety of other designs aiming for the same goals. There ARE other ways and designs to achieve the same goals. But that said, Bill makes one helluva solid professional product . Which is why pros who want something that will hold up to a world tour buy his pedal, and guys like us who want the sound in our basement buy a $50 Chinese copy.

Does that complete the picture for you?


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## silvertonebetty (Jan 4, 2015)

mhammer said:


> Separate the design itself from the foolish and greedy resale prices on the used market. It's a damn good pedal, and extremely well made, but has a very specific purpose that does not suit everyone.
> 
> I had the honour of being contacted out of the blue in late 2007 by Bill, the guy who made them. He was looking for some assistance with an "amendment" to the circuit that some unnamed clients had requested, and felt he could trust me. At the time, the circuit was normally covered in epoxy, since it was his only product and he wanted to protect his I.P. He sent me two ungooped boards and a schematic diagram. One of the boards was stock, and the other was also stock, except that every single component on the board was socketed so that I (and he as well) could easily pull part X and replace it with another value to see/hear what the impact was. I built an enclosure with a stompswitch that would allow me to swap back and forth between the stock board and the socketed board so that I could audition what any changes I had made to the circuit had resulted in.
> 
> ...


That does .thanks


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

I had one for a while way back when before all the hype. I mostly just used it for a volume boost with a bite of bite added. Nothing special to me.

I think I sold it for $200. 😢


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## JRtele (Jul 18, 2021)

mhammer said:


> Separate the design itself from the foolish and greedy resale prices on the used market. It's a damn good pedal, and extremely well made, but has a very specific purpose that does not suit everyone.
> 
> I had the honour of being contacted out of the blue in late 2007 by Bill, the guy who made them. He was looking for some assistance with an "amendment" to the circuit that some unnamed clients had requested, and felt he could trust me. At the time, the circuit was normally covered in epoxy, since it was his only product and he wanted to protect his I.P. He sent me two ungooped boards and a schematic diagram. One of the boards was stock, and the other was also stock, except that every single component on the board was socketed so that I (and he as well) could easily pull part X and replace it with another value to see/hear what the impact was. I built an enclosure with a stompswitch that would allow me to swap back and forth between the stock board and the socketed board so that I could audition what any changes I had made to the circuit had resulted in.
> 
> ...


I’ve wondered about this for years and contemplate every time I use my J Archer Rockett. Thank you very much for the knowledge bomb. Very appreciated.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

JRtele said:


> I’ve wondered about this for years and contemplate every time I use my J Archer Rockett. Thank you very much for the knowledge bomb. Very appreciated.


You can imagine how surprised I was to get a cold call on an autumn Wednesday evening like this, sitting in this very chair, from a guy who says "Hi, my name is Bill Finnegan". He had previously worked with a consulting engineer, but the fellow was killed in a single-engine airplane crash. He needed someone to collaborate with and help translate his ideas into component values, and felt he could trust me***. I'm barely a guppy in the ocean of pedal-makers so this remains one of the high points of my pedal career. We had many long conversations. I didn't always agree with his business plan, but his business ethics and design approach were unassailable. Great ears, too. In the end I couldn't accomplish what he wanted, and we parted ways. I shipped back everything he had sent me, and have kept all secrets under my hat.

ANY booster, no matter how clean it purports to be, really needs a treble cut of some kind. Players are going to use such a pedal to push their amp into distortion. "Distortion" is simply lots more harmonic content that wasn't there in the original input signal. Adding harmonics of harmonics does NOT sound great, and is often what many players label as objectionable "fizz". Pleasing amp distortion generally requires that one tame the treble in the signal one feeds the amp, to elicit mostly lower-order harmonics. This is why I say a treble cut of some kind is helpful, if not essential. Bill told me that, even though the Klon has a Treble control with cut *and* boost, he envisioned it as being used primarily to cut treble.

*** _Let this be a lesson to you youngsters. You never know who is lurking on websites, reading your posts._


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

silvertonebetty said:


> Now first I will say I’ve never played a klon let alone saw one in person. So may someone explain why there’s such a deal with them


Like any drive pedal the circuit is subject to taste. I happen to really like the K-type circuits I've played. Regarding the actual Klons themselves, their value is primarily in the fact that they're the original.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

Wardo said:


> What, if anything, the big deal is it sure as hell ain’t gonna be evident if you’re just playing in your bedroom.


Nailed it.
I’ve owned a soul food, sacred cow and a J.Rockett archer.

They all sounded very similar to one another. they were good pedals. But you need to be playing at the very minimum Bar room volumes to really tap into what the pedal is designed to do.

If I won 6/49, I would buy a real Klon just because it looks cool and then never use it.


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## DeeTee (Apr 16, 2018)

Always12AM said:


> Nailed it.
> I’ve owned a soul food, sacred cow and a J.Rockett archer.
> 
> They all sounded very similar to one another. they were good pedals. But you need to be playing at the very minimum Bar room volumes to really tap into what the pedal is designed to do.
> ...


This is a good point actually. My Soul Food sounded quite good at home. It sounded massive pushing a Rockerverb 100 at the practice room.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Is there a list of artists that use them onstage? I think Jeff Beck does, but a quick Google didn't turn up a list. 

Lots of articles on it though. Interesting to read something from 2014 that says "if you can't afford the original at $2000 try these clones... " and right below it is a an ad on Reverb with one listed at $7000. Yikes...


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Separate the design itself from the foolish and greedy resale prices on the used market. * It's a damn good pedal*, and extremely well made, but has a very specific purpose that does not suit everyone.


I am highly skeptical that the "damn good pedal" would make a difference or provide me the value relative to what you'd have to shell out for one. I'm far better off investing in a really good amp or really good guitar for that same money which will make far more difference in my signal chain. 
Do people think that they are going to sound exactly like the players that made me this pedal popular? 
A "damn good pedal" can be had for very cheap and if you're a "damn good player" you'll make it sound good. If you're a "damn lousy player", a Klon that you paid several thousand for isn't going to make a difference.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

It's all about being collectible. Period. Nothing about the pedal's sound relates to the price. 

I've owned an original (talked to Bill on the phone), a KTR, a Ceriatone, and other clones. They sound really nice with BF Fender amps at a decent volume. That said, there is nothing magic going on and there are a gabillion klones on the market. 

Look at the prices of KTRs now. As with the originals, the inflation is from a bunch of internet gear nerds wanting to have something that other group members don't have. When they were in production people didn't want them because of their looks; now that they are out of production . . . must have!!!!!

Go read TGP threads dedicated to pedals' looks or read complaints about compressor pedals squishing the amp's sound, and you will start to realize why the Klon is hyped and who is behind it.

TG


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> I am highly skeptical that the "damn good pedal" would make a difference or provide me the value relative to what you'd have to shell out for one. I'm far better off investing in a really good amp or really good guitar for that same money which will make far more difference in my signal chain.
> Do people think that they are going to sound exactly like the players that made me this pedal popular?
> A "damn good pedal" can be had for very cheap and if you're a "damn good player" you'll make it sound good. If you're a "damn lousy player", a Klon that you paid several thousand for isn't going to make a difference.


Which is part of the basis for "the talk" Bill would engage in - to identify whether it would make any sort of useful addition to that customer/player. Not elitist, just a clear idea of where the pedal does or doesn't add value to the rig. Typically, the better the amp, the more value the pedal adds, soundwise.

Some higher-profile players - the Joe Perrys of the world - will buy a half-dozen, to be distributed across their multiple caches of gear (some players will maintain several sets of equipment on different continents or parts of the country to avoid shipping inconveniences, cost, and possible damage).


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Which is part of the basis for "the talk" Bill would engage in - to identify whether it would make any sort of useful addition to that customer/player. Not elitist, just a clear idea of where the pedal does or doesn't add value to the rig. Typically, the better the amp, the more value the pedal adds, soundwise.
> 
> Some higher-profile players - the Joe Perrys of the world - will buy a half-dozen, to be distributed across their multiple caches of gear (some players will maintain several sets of equipment on different continents or parts of the country to avoid shipping inconveniences, cost, and possible damage).



And I imagine if I was having the talk with Bill about a Klon pedal I'd also be talking about the price he was originally selling them for. Which makes sense. But years later when they're fetching 5-7k prices did they magically improve from the time Bill sold them, to now be worth several thousand more? Nope same pedal just older. There are many pedals that do the same thing for far cheaper. How hard can it be for a pedal maker to make a pedal that pushes an amp?


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Wardo said:


> What, if anything, the big deal is it sure as hell ain’t gonna be evident if you’re just playing in your bedroom.


Disagree. I mean, sure, it's not doing all it can in that context, but it's still doing a thing I like.



mhammer said:


> Separate the design itself from the foolish and greedy resale prices on the used market. It's a damn good pedal, and extremely well made, but has a very specific purpose that does not suit everyone.
> 
> I had the honour of being contacted out of the blue in late 2007 by Bill, the guy who made them. He was looking for some assistance with an "amendment" to the circuit that some unnamed clients had requested, and felt he could trust me. At the time, the circuit was normally covered in epoxy, since it was his only product and he wanted to protect his I.P. He sent me two ungooped boards and a schematic diagram. One of the boards was stock, and the other was also stock, except that every single component on the board was socketed so that I (and he as well) could easily pull part X and replace it with another value to see/hear what the impact was. I built an enclosure with a stompswitch that would allow me to swap back and forth between the stock board and the socketed board so that I could audition what any changes I had made to the circuit had resulted in.
> 
> ...


I mean, you're not wrong, and I've heard this story before from you and beleive it, but the Klon itself IS an overdrive (like it has clipping diodes, and Bill himself acknowledges the importance of those, humourously with a label on the PCB itself... though that also could have been a trap for the nerds trying to trace the thing). It can be run as an only mildly dirty boost, sure, but that is a user setting choice, and it's never a proper clean boost; can't do it. That is how it was innovative; the first not-clean boost (as far as I am aware - mild setting on an otherwise specifically dirt pedal don't count). I am assuming this is a large part of what you mean by "conditioning" the signal for the amp (or , it must be said, a subsequent pedal - good for that too; stacking overdrive etc), though there is more to it, like the parallel gain stage - the signal is split and 1 goes through the op amp and clipping diodes and the other doesn't. what this means in practice is the thing you hear from users all the time online, that it doesn't compress the signal like most dirt pedals (or nearly as much; some - parallel compression as is all the rage in vocal recording, and before that, drum buss processing). This is because there is a not-exactly dry (there's some tone shaping) signal mixed back in with the driven signal. Like a preset (reactive actually) wet/dry mix (dual gain pot controls both op amp drive and parallel signal paths), so you get the original dynamics coming through as well as a bit of hair, depending on gain setting. Then there's a basic summing amp after that to mix the 2 back together. I'm actually surprised that I've not heard of anybody modding to have separate gain controls to be able to control the wet/dry(er) mix, but it's probably one of those better the way it is scenarios. So there is magic in there, but like all things tone it depends on the rest of your chain and personal tastes whether it's that good or not. And it's not magic that you can't get somewhere else; like being built by Bill isn't what does it (though the build quality is ace).

An original Centaur has become a status symbol. wwe all understand this - look at vintage guitars. In the same way, and predictably, there is also the counter-reaction to that; those who diss the unit (I mean sure it's not worth 5k) which may be part sour grapes and part cognitive dissonance between the effect and the price. The higher you soar the more of a target you become; precisely because of the growwing disconnect between price and value. You can still get a KTR which is the same circuit and sounds the same (I beleive mhammer can speak to the testing that went into checking that was the case) and are still available new (at least occasionally, last I checked). The insanity of the market is further driven by the fact that it won't accept that a KTR is as good as a Centaur, nevermind a DIY build or some other prefab Klone. I will say that a Soul Food isn't quite as good, but it's most of the way there; but there are better klones.

As for the whole cost-benefit thing, that argument is flawed because the market is insane. You can easily build your own (or get a KTR for <400US again, last I checked) ... or any number of klones (not that I am advocating that; DIY for personal use if fair play for sure tho), and yeah, if other boutique pedals are worth that much, a Klon(e)/KTR is easily worth 100-400. It is a "damn good pedal" but nothing is the thing for everyone, nothing ever will be, and yes, originals are overpriced and not worth it on that basis, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a fine ass pedal and that you can get the same magic for a reasonable price.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Disagree. I mean, sure, it's not doing all it can in that context, but it's still doing a thing I like.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The ktrs are expensive now, because very recently he put out a video that they aren’t being made with the old diodes. 
im going to hold on to mine so that someone will buy it for a stupid amount of money and then probably replace it with another centura.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Ah - wasn't aware of that. I wonder how critical the diodes actually are (like to be the same exact ones). I suspect there may be some hype here, some alt models that are damn close, but also some truth - like the Soul Food def does not use the same diodes, and it's the bottom of the barrel of the klones IMO. That's the trade off - accurate copy vs mass production - those diodes were discontinued before the Klon was invented so it's been NOS supply since day 1 and they had to dry up eventually.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Ah - wasn't aware of that. I wonder how critical the diodes actually are (like to be the same exact ones). I suspect there may be some hype here, some alt models that are damn close, but also some truth - like the Soul Food def does not use the same diodes, and it's the bottom of the barrel of the klones IMO. That's the trade off - accurate copy vs mass production - those diodes were discontinued before the Klon was invented.


he did a comparison with old ktr vs new ktr, probably no difference. That won’t stop anything though. THESE DIODES ARE MAGIC


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## terminalvertigo (Jun 12, 2010)

I cant link it at work, but the JHS video where he compares all of the klones to the real thing is pretty telling, IMO.

I had a silver klon in the early 2000s, I traded it and some cash for a '65LPB Jazzmaster which I still have. Shoulda kept the Klon, but it all worked out in the end. 

the Centura I have is 99% the same.


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## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

tomee2 said:


> Interesting to read something from 2014 that says "if you can't afford the original at $2000 try these clones... " and right below it is a an ad on Reverb with one listed at $7000. Yikes...


I joined the guitar forum world around 2009. I remember they were selling for $500 used then and it seemed remarkable at the time. “Wow, people are paying $500 for an OD pedal…”

But I get the current price, in that it’s about owning one and not what the pedal does anymore.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Disagree. I mean, sure, it's not doing all it can in that context, but it's still doing a thing I like.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


EXCELLENT analysis...on all levels! My only disagreement (and that is no complaint whatsoever) is that I still don't put it in the same category as pedals intended to yield an identifiable "overdrive" tone, even if you plug them directly into a Crown power amp with gobs of headroom. The Gain control does about 4 things at once that should probably not be disaggregated, in order to maximize ease of use.

I credit Bill mostly for the idea of the pedal, and what it sparked in the industry, rather than for anything magical about its specific design or tone. That's not to shortchange a decent and exceptionally well-made product, but it was the idea of a pedal that does what it does, at that particular time in gear history, which earns him a gold star in my books. Again, taking the *idea* of it as the major contribution, there have been other pedals that aim for the same target and do a good job. I tip my hat to them all, but a little more for Bill.

Just as an aside, the $5k pricetag is something that Josh Scott (Mr. JHS) instigated for his own pedal, more as a sarcastic comment on the aftermarket stupidity, than any attempt to set the resale bar higher. But, y'know, internet gonna internet.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

RBlakeney said:


> The ktrs are expensive now, because very recently he put out a video that they aren’t being made with the old diodes.
> im going to hold on to mine so that someone will buy it for a stupid amount of money and then probably replace it with another centura.


Yup. I've got a Tumnus on its way to me for this very reason.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

mhammer said:


> The Klon was intended to precondition the signal so as to push a tube amp already near the edge of breakup into its own desirable distortion. The overdrive is not from the pedal alone, but from the amp as "helped" by the pedal.
> 
> [ . . . .]
> 
> When it first came out in the mid-'90s, it was a revolutionary idea. There WERE boosters at the time, but there was nothing explicitly intended to preshape what you fed a tube amp so that it sounded, as one satisfied customer put it "Like my amp, only BIGGER".


Great write up! I'm trying to get my head around everything you wrote and separate it from the lore around transparent-like boosters.

The Timmy actually gets a very similar description: "Like my amp, only bigger." The quote struck me because I had a Timmy once and and honestly could not see a discernable advantage between the Timmy engaged vs just slightly turning up the gain /volume on my amp. So, I don't really understand some of these claims, and do want to understand them from a technical point of view (within reason!). For instance, why is the Klon just appropriate for a tube amp and not a SS amp? And what about a high end modeler? Is the Klon actually interacting with tube amps in a similar way to the way guitars interact with certain fuzz pedals due to impedance? Is it just pushing the preamp tubes? Is that different from the effect of active pickups or a clean boost? If it adds its own colour plus gain, then by definition it's an overdrive, is it not? And if not, is it a clean booster-EQ-shaping pedal?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

isoneedacoffee said:


> Great write up! I'm trying to get my head around everything you wrote and separate it from the lore around transparent-like boosters.
> 
> The Timmy actually gets a very similar description: "Like my amp, only bigger." The quote struck me because I had a Timmy once and and honestly could not see a discernable advantage between the Timmy engaged vs just slightly turning up the gain /volume on my amp. So, I don't really understand some of these claims, and do want to understand them from a technical point of view (within reason!). For instance, why is the Klon just appropriate for a tube amp and not a SS amp? And what about a high end modeler? Is the Klon actually interacting with tube amps in a similar way to the way guitars interact with certain fuzz pedals due to impedance? Is it just pushing the preamp tubes? Is that different from the effect of active pickups or a clean boost? If it adds its own colour plus gain, then by definition it's an overdrive, is it not? And if not, is it a clean booster-EQ-shaping pedal?


All good questions. I'll start with the easy ones.
Solid-state amps are generally not known for the sonic qualities of their power section, the same way players recognize and acknowledge the difference between amps using 6V6, 6L6, EL84 and EL34 tubes, to name just a few. The sonic qualities of this or that power section can be distinctive in a way that solid-state power sections are not. So, the Klon can bring out those pleasing qualities of a given tube power section, but doesn't really do more to a SS amp than pushing the preamp section, which a lot of other pedals can do quite adequately.

The KTR has a defeatable buffer from what I understand. If you're trying to be Brad Paisley, and you want a bright Tele to push a DR. Z a little harder, perhaps you want the buffer on. But the drive portion of the pedal itself is not intended to interact with the input impedance of the amp in any particular way. It has a fairly low output impedance. 

If a modeller has incorporated a model of how a particular tube power stage responds to different input signals, then yes, I suppose a Klon could be used productively with a modeller box. Never tried it myself, but modelling is a very flexible beast these days.

In some respects, it IS "just pushing the preamp tubes", but the front end of the amp is also pushing the power stage, which is, in turn, pushing the OT and speakers. The audible result is a product of *all* of that, and not just preamp distortion of the sort you could get from an MXR Microamp and any TDA2030-based practice amp.

Is the MXR Microamp or EHX LPB-1 an "overdrive"? No. Do people use it to push their amp into some form of saturation? Yes. Is that saturation as good as it could be to their ears? Maybe, maybe not, depends on the amp and where in the signal path the booster is. I think you'll find that a number of "boosters" produced in the last 20 years have included a treble-cut control for the very reasons I outlined earlier. The MXR Microamp has been altered to include tone controls as well. Simply boosting without toneshaping of any kind may or may not get you the sort of amp saturation that sounds good to your ears.

"Transparent overdrive". One of the most misunderstood and misused phrases in the music industry. People generally want the individual notes of a chord to be audible. Sometimes, I suppose, they want audio mush for an effect, but most of the time they'd like new strings to sound like they're new. Achieving that goal is partly a result of headroom. That is, the amount of gain applied should not dramatically exceed what the circuit is able to achieve without clipping. Many contemporary pedals are using charge pump chips to ramp up the supply voltage from +9v to something higher in order to increase headroom. That not only aids in goosing final maximum output amplitude, but provides for greater dynamics and touch-responsiveness. The Timmy - also a very popular and much-loved pedal - doesn't routinely use a higher supply voltage, but it does use additional diodes to push the available headroom a little higher. So, used right, it* will* allow for "transparent overdrive". I designed a booster something a little over 15 years back that was well-received in some circles and panned in others. Some folks raved over what it did to a Marshall. Admittedly, I have never tried it out with a higher supply voltage, which is something I really need to try.

I don't know if that answered all your questions....but I tried.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

isoneedacoffee said:


> Great write up! I'm trying to get my head around everything you wrote and separate it from the lore around transparent-like boosters.
> 
> The Timmy actually gets a very similar description: "Like my amp, only bigger." The quote struck me because I had a Timmy once and and honestly could not see a discernable advantage between the Timmy engaged vs just slightly turning up the gain /volume on my amp. So, I don't really understand some of these claims, and do want to understand them from a technical point of view (within reason!). For instance, why is the Klon just appropriate for a tube amp and not a SS amp? And what about a high end modeler? Is the Klon actually interacting with tube amps in a similar way to the way guitars interact with certain fuzz pedals due to impedance? Is it just pushing the preamp tubes? Is that different from the effect of active pickups or a clean boost? If it adds its own colour plus gain, then by definition it's an overdrive, is it not? And if not, is it a clean booster-EQ-shaping pedal?


I've never used a Timmy, so taking you at your word that it's a similar deal (intended purpose) as the Klon which I am speaking about. I would say that it is different from just increasing gain on your amp. The tone shaping in there is subtle (not talking about the tone control; the bits that are fixed in the circuit) but can make a huge difference in terms of the defenition of your sound and how muddy things can get with just more straight gain. Like I dunno why no tube amp makers pput an adjustable/defeatable rumble filter (HPF with a really low corner freq) in front of the first preamp tube stage - it would be so useful. The speaker can have a lot to do with this as well; hence a few comments above about Klons being rig dependant.

Maybe some things don't need to or can't easily be pigeonholed; IMO it's on the spectrum between coloured dirty boost and a low to medium gain overdrive. I mean you can set it to not be in the boost range, and you can set it to be relatively clean, but it is always coloured, if only a little. Perhaps the term 'preamp' may be best applicable here.

If I had to look for 'prior art' to borrow a phrase from patent law, I'd point to people like The Edge using rack processors in bypass mode as a preamp (he used the Korg SDD-3000 digital delay, but others used Echoplexes etc mostly in bypass mode, intentionally as a preamp/tone shaper). The difference being, that these units were not intended for use in this way; it was a happy accident.

This same sort of thing is what has led to the rise in popularity of other formerly looked over (mostly solid state) gear (see the Traynor TS series, Gorrilla Amps, Sunn Alpha/Beta series etc) beccause a) it would give you unique tones (vs the same old classic Marshall schtick litterally everyone uses and often does not stack well with multiple track/guitarists wwithout a lot of post recording EQ; they thicc) and b) they were cheap; unappreciated at the time of their release and ubiquitously available anywhere in NA. There are numerous 'dirt ' pedals based off of these units now (some more honestly than others), like I credit the ss Sunn amps with the small explosion of CMOS based distortions (and other effects; octaves and modulation) in the last 10 years. Gorrilla amps had op amp based distortion with no clipping diodes - that usually sounds bad, but then came Queens of the Stone Age.

Even Musicman was ahead of it's time with (IMO) the right way to do a hybryd amp - tube power section with solid state front end. Tube front ends can get messy and muddy especially with certain weirdo pickups (I learned this the hard way - my first bass was a 60s Gibson EB3, not the first I used just the first I owned - those mudbuckers measure an insane 30kOhms +/-2 - the best preamp for it that I have found is actually a Peavy Bandit combo - insane how that shit amp we all hated as kids sounds so good with it). Solid state preamps can be dialed in by the user and tuned better by the designer to be more versatile as regards "conditioning" the source signal. There's a reason that 12AX7s aren't the de facto preamp tube in HiFi amps. Pedals like the Klon help with that, but it's limit is being tuned a certain way that won't be best for all given instrument/amp/speaker combinations (It's strength is only having 3 knobs - you know what it can do right away)... but try a Musicman ... or like a Gibson Lab5 preamp into a tube power amp. I bet most of us would be very surprised by how that go (I was). And I'm saying this as I put the finishing cosmetic touches on a Herzog ish amp/preamp thing I built (in my defense I found a way to get a 6AN8 triode/pentode into the preamp) - I mean sometimes all tube is the right thing too. I love me some old Ampex mic preamps from old tape machines; I really gotta get mine working properly again.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

terminalvertigo said:


> I cant link it at work, but the JHS video where he compares all of the klones to the real thing is pretty telling, IMO.
> 
> I had a silver klon in the early 2000s, I traded it and some cash for a '65LPB Jazzmaster which I still have. Shoulda kept the Klon, but it all worked out in the end.
> 
> the Centura I have is 99% the same.


Gonna need a pic of that JM.


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## terminalvertigo (Jun 12, 2010)

Budda said:


> Gonna need a pic of that JM.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> Is there a list of artists that use them onstage? I think Jeff Beck does, but a quick Google didn't turn up a list.
> 
> Lots of articles on it though. Interesting to read something from 2014 that says "if you can't afford the original at $2000 try these clones... " and right below it is a an ad on Reverb with one listed at $7000. Yikes...


Here is a list of artists:
Klon Centaur


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

It was mentoned earlier in this thread that when the Klon first came out it was a unique unit.

These days with all of the clones, there are a tons of options.
In a blind test, I bet that you'd be hard pressed to discern which is which, nevermind in a band setting.


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## terminalvertigo (Jun 12, 2010)

sulphur said:


> It was mentoned earlier in this thread that when the Klon first came out it was a unique unit.
> 
> These days with all of the clones, there are a tons of options.
> In a blind test, I bet that you'd be hard pressed to discern which is which, nevermind in a band setting.






the video i referenced earlier


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Chito said:


> Here is a list of artists:
> Klon Centaur


Thanks! Extensive list, and many big names.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

sulphur said:


> It was mentoned earlier in this thread that when the Klon first came out it was a unique unit.
> 
> These days with all of the clones, there are a tons of options.
> In a blind test, I bet that you'd be hard pressed to discern which is which, nevermind in a band setting.


Quite likely.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

mhammer said:


> I designed a booster something a little over 15 years back that was well-received in some circles and panned in others. Some folks raved over what it did to a Marshall. Admittedly, I have never tried it out with a higher supply voltage, which is something I really need to try.


I think this boost is the one I have, I quite like it with bright amps, it’s definitely much warmer than my klones or ktr.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

RBlakeney said:


> I think this boost is the one I have, I quite like it with bright amps, it’s definitely much warmer than my klones or ktr.


Is it The Crank?


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

mhammer said:


> Is it The Crank?


Yes


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## HolttChris (Aug 10, 2020)

Don’t ya know more $$$$ = more tone??!! 😉


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

RBlakeney said:


> he did a comparison with old ktr vs new ktr, probably no difference. That won’t stop anything though. THESE DIODES ARE MAGIC



I've joked about it before but now I'm a single unemployed dad (seriously, my life's been a country song for the last 2 years) - how bad ya wannem? No lie, I have a stash of NOS germanium Russian D9Es from when I built myself a Klone; should be at least a couple pairs in there that are the right spec.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

RBlakeney said:


> I think this boost is the one I have, I quite like it with bright amps, it’s definitely much warmer than my klones or ktr.


Thanks for the vote of confidence. I certainly don't know for sure, but have a hunch the posted design was why Bill called me. It clearly preceded his call by a few years. I don't think it is a gift from God, but it's a nice booster and can even make a solid-state amp provide a pleasing overdrive. I have a couple extras in mini-enclosures built and tested if somebody wants one. Drop me a PM and we'll haggle. Canada Post says shipping is free this month!


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

mhammer said:


> Thanks for the vote of confidence. I certainly don't know for sure, but have a hunch the posted design was why Bill called me. It clearly preceded his call by a few years. I don't think it is a gift from God, but it's a nice booster and can even make a solid-state amp provide a pleasing overdrive. I have a couple extras in mini-enclosures built and tested if somebody wants one. Drop me a PM and we'll haggle. Canada Post says shipping is free this month!
> View attachment 381795


That's a great pedal. I wish mine was in a full size enclosure with top mount jacks instead of a mini, but such is life.


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## ping-ping (Jul 30, 2021)

when I buy gear I ask myself how long do I expect to be using this pedal. To me Pedals are like tools inna tool box. I wouldn't attempt fine marketry with a chain saw. And yet most of what I do musically is noise Assemblages an often I strive to create sounds that suggest audio disintegration = lo-fi. not knowing where I'm libel to go I often to shop for gear that has the capability of a variety of possibilities.
a Klon is far to refined for my for my blue collar tastes . Where as a Rat pedal or a JHS muffeletto


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Granny Gremlin said:


> I dunno why no tube amp makers pput an adjustable/defeatable rumble filter (HPF with a really low corner freq) in front of the first preamp tube stage - it would be so useful.


+1 Good call!

Doesn't the FAC control on some Orange amps do that?


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## Brian Johnston (Feb 24, 2019)

The SP+ (by TL Pedals) is a Klon clone, but it offers a super clean boost, as well as options to use germanium or silicon clipping. Fantastic! Best drive pedal... using it now!


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

mhammer said:


> +1 Good call!
> 
> Doesn't the FAC control on some Orange amps do that?



Yes exactly - just found out about those after posting that. Only on some vintage Matamp made ones though - later on they put the FAC after V1 where I think it loses some value.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I wasn't any sort of Orange/Matamp expert, but the Runoffgroove folks had posted a number of tube-to-FET emulators of noteworthy amplifier preamps some years back, and one of them was an attempt to mimic the preamp of an Orange amp. That's how I learned of it.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

mhammer said:


> I wasn't any sort of Orange/Matamp expert, but the Runoffgroove folks had posted a number of tube-to-FET emulators of noteworthy amplifier preamps some years back, and one of them was an attempt to mimic the preamp of an Orange amp. That's how I learned of it.
> View attachment 384991



Yeah - see the FAC there is after Q1. The original OR-100 had it right after the jacks and grid stoppers.


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## Nork (Mar 27, 2010)

mhammer said:


> Thanks for the vote of confidence. I certainly don't know for sure, but have a hunch the posted design was why Bill called me. It clearly preceded his call by a few years. I don't think it is a gift from God, but it's a nice booster and can even make a solid-state amp provide a pleasing overdrive. I have a couple extras in mini-enclosures built and tested if somebody wants one. Drop me a PM and we'll haggle. Canada Post says shipping is free this month!


ha. I would take you up on that just to try it. My VHT S6 is a neat little, simple platform for trying to stuff out and it's always interesting to try stuff that's not "mainstream".


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

Granny Gremlin said:


> I've joked about it before but now I'm a single unemployed dad (seriously, my life's been a country song for the last 2 years) - how bad ya wannem? No lie, I have a stash of NOS germanium Russian D9Es from when I built myself a Klone; should be at least a couple pairs in there that are the right spec.


I see that the two diodes pictured are not identical. Very similar but the "black band" width is different enough to indicate a different spec.
Maybe everybody knows this and I am late to the party. I probably should read the degooping threads instead of showing my ignorance here... 

I was under the impression that "the magic" was attributed to the "type" of unobtainium diodes. Hype, mystery, marketing, kudos to Bill.

So, is part of the "magic" a golden ratio of asymmetrical clipping....?
or does Bill use some tape and a sharpie to add the magic?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Germanium diodes can vary in their forward voltage (clipping threshold), even within the same part number. I didn't pull them to measure, back when I had them, but it wouldn't surprise me if Bill selected diodes by measuring them. There may be nothing particularly special or exotic about them, except that they had a particular forward voltage. Keep in mind that, when used as a clipping element, going to ground, having a higher forward voltage not only raises the clipping threshold, but also permits a higher output level. Given that the Klon design blends a clipped and unclipped signal, as gain is increased, that balance will likely be affected by how much the diodes clip and constrain the level of clipped signal to be blended. So, like I say, they may have been selected for a forward voltage that Bill knew would yield the right balance.

That may also be why some cheaper knockoffs come sort of close, but don't nail what an actual Klon or KTR does. I have no idea what that frward voltage is or ought to be, since I don't have Bill's ears.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

tonewoody said:


> I see that the two diodes pictured are not identical. Very similar but the "black band" width is different enough to indicate a different spec.
> Maybe everybody knows this and I am late to the party. I probably should read the degooping threads instead of showing my ignorance here...
> 
> I was under the impression that "the magic" was attributed to the "type" of unobtainium diodes. Hype, mystery, marketing, kudos to Bill.
> ...


In addition to what mhammer said, the black paint also varies in width. It doesn't mean anything (other than a polarity indicator) so nobody bothered to make sure it was consistent.

Nobody outside of Bill's confidence knows for sure, but there's some popular opinions about what they are and what alts are good in it (in terms of forward voltage range as well as tone).




mhammer said:


> That may also be why some cheaper knockoffs come sort of close, but don't nail what an actual Klon or KTR does. I have no idea what that forward voltage is or ought to be, since I don't have Bill's ears.


From an informal 'poll' taken by a number of degoopers, it's accepted to be about 0.35V. Copies built with this spec seem to be good. If I knew that I don't see why EHX didn't.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Granny Gremlin said:


> In addition to what mhammer said, the black paint also varies in width. It doesn't mean anything (other than a polarity indicator) so nobody bothered to make sure it was consistent.
> 
> Nobody outside of Bill's confidence knows for sure, but there's some popular opinions about what they are and what alts are good in it (in terms of forward voltage range as well as tone).
> 
> ...


My personal bias is that people make far too much of the difference between this and that diode number. Remember that diodes were not produced for the purposes of fuzzboxes. Different diode numbers DO have different specs, but those specs generally tend to pertain to high-speed switching (which they WERE developed for), and not to the frequency-range more typical of guitars and other musical instruments. If diode A starts to conduct in 80 nanoseconds and diode B doesn't start conducting in 100 nanoseconds. that can matter a lot to the design of a microcontroller or telephone switchboard, but not to a distortion anticipating an input bandwidth of 6khz or less.

So what I look for is forward voltage. And as I noted, it can vary even within the same part number. For my part, I could care less if it's a 1N34a, a 1N270, or 1N60, if the forward voltage is the same, too high or too low. Certainly, different *categories* of diode are associated with substantial differences in forward voltage. So I'm not going to look for 350mv forward voltage in a red LED, and if a schematic specifies red LEDs for clipping, then one doesn't use green or blue, since they each occupy different forward voltage ranges.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

mhammer said:


> My personal bias is that people make far too much of the difference between this and that diode number. Remember that diodes were not produced for the purposes of fuzzboxes. Different diode numbers DO have different specs, but those specs generally tend to pertain to high-speed switching (which they WERE developed for), and not to the frequency-range more typical of guitars and other musical instruments. If diode A starts to conduct in 80 nanoseconds and diode B doesn't start conducting in 100 nanoseconds. that can matter a lot to the design of a microcontroller or telephone switchboard, but not to a distortion anticipating an input bandwidth of 6khz or less.
> 
> So what I look for is forward voltage. And as I noted, it can vary even within the same part number. For my part, I could care less if it's a 1N34a, a 1N270, or 1N60, if the forward voltage is the same, too high or too low. Certainly, different *categories* of diode are associated with substantial differences in forward voltage. So I'm not going to look for 350mv forward voltage in a red LED, and if a schematic specifies red LEDs for clipping, then one doesn't use green or blue, since they each occupy different forward voltage ranges.



Exactly - that's why BAT41s (not even germaniums) work pretty well in Klones - they are in the right range (though you still gotta test a few to find the ones that are in the right spot).


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

I have a couple of old Tube Screamers that would start bidding wars on Reverb or EBay .... I found an old Arion Hot Watt 2, that sounds 2 times better than my Tube Screamers.


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