# Octaver and Fuzz vs. an Octavia



## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Is a fuzz and an Octaver (like a foxrox) have the same sound then an Octavia? Can I dial the same sound/tone with two effects or there's something really specific to an Octavia taht I can't recreate with those two effects? I don't know someone with an octavia and no store near my area seems to have one that I can rent, I don't want to buy too many effects for nothing!
Thanks for your help guys!


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I've built a number of octave-doubling pedals: Elektor doubler, Anderton octave-doubling fuzz, Foxx Tone Machine, Tychobrahe Octavia, Roger Mayer Octavia, Green Ringer, Superfuzz, and probably a few more that I've forgotten.

Personally I like the Foxx unit the best, but they each have their special charm. The most recently built is a clone of the Tychobrahe. I found it was decent and Hendrix-ey enough but only in about the lower 5% of the adjustment range. I posted a query about this on the DIY Stompbox forum and was surprised (and gratified) to learn that I was not at all alone in that. I inserted a 330 ohm fixed resistor in series with the Fuzz control and found it inmproved the situation dramatically such that I could dial in an assortment of octave-generating settings before the control yielded full-out fuzz where the octave was simply one frequency lost in the crowd. After I posted that, a number of folks did a similar mod to their units and also reported being much happier with the range of adjustment. It is worth noting that the pot used to adjust the fuzz/octave is 1k and that pots can vary from their stated value by as much as 20%. Consequently, the added resistor may have essentially compensated for what was included in the Mayer originals, but got lost in the shuffle between commercially-available pots made and bought NOW versus what he used back then.

The Octavia has a bit of a unique sound. To my mind this comes partly from the fact that there are diodes *in series* with the final signal. Why does that make a difference? Because the signal first has to be larger than the minimum voltage required for those diodes to conduct and pass signal. Though it does not produce the sorts of swell that something like the old Boss Slow Gear produces, it trims enough of the initial attack off (only a few milliseconds) that you get an octave fuzz with a certain character. For me, this tone is exemplified in the "Axis Bold as Love" track "One Rainy Wish" ("Gold and rose, the colour of the dream I had......"). I have not played any other octave-up fuzzes with that characteristic.

Just so you know, ALL analog octave-up boxes will require distortion of the signal to do what they do. It is the nature of the beast. They vary in terms of how they get there. Another characteristic they all share is that they produce sideband products (what a ring modulator does; the sum and difference of 2 or more frequencies) under certain conditions; most notably when bending lower strings or notes on lower frets. This is why the Green Ringer, though principally an octave-up fuzz is called a "Ringer" - because it produces more sideband products than a number of other comparable units.

Though compression of the signal before an octave-generating fuzz can help the octave-box's performance - lengthening the period where the octave lingers - pre-distortion does not. If anything, they are happiest when you use the neck pickup with the tone turned down, and pick closer to the neck than to the bridge. Think of them like someone trying to make an important decision while they have a splitting headache. You need to make that decision as easy to make as possible and adding more frequency content (which is what predistortion would do) just distracts them.

Just so you know, Danelectro is led by one of the folks who used to be behind Foxx pedals. The Danelectro French Toast pedal IS a Foxx Tone Machine in a smaller package with electronic switching. If you like Adrian Belew, you'll like the FTM and French Toast. If you like saving money, you'll like the French Toast better!:smilie_flagge17:


----------



## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Interesting post - a fountain of great info as usual mhammer.

FWIW, I spent along time looking at octave boxes and went through the same thought process as Ti-Ron re the foxrox + fuzz vs. octavia, and eventually went with the tycobrahe -- a Chicago Iron Octavian+ -- it's a very authentic Hendrix-y sounding octave. (I also have an EHX octave multiplexer for octave down). It does fuzz on its own too, although it's not the world's greatest fuzz it's passable but the octave is great. (I use it + a Fulltone 69)


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

You're correct about the quality of the fuzz that the Octavia "throws in for free". It's....okay....but nothing you'd seek the pedal out for, and certainly not at that price.

A lot of folks mistakenly confuse octave-generating pedals (whether up or down) with harmonizers/pitch-shifters (though I'm not assuming YOU made that error). Not the same beast at all. Harmonizers shift ALL content in a given direction, upwards or downwards, in increments/decrements. Not unlike simply speeding up the tape recorder.

In contrast, octave down boxes, like the aforementioned multiplexer, make assumptions about the pitch of individual notes - one at a time - and simply divide the _detected_ pitch by 2 or by 4. I qualify "detected" simply because these circuits are rarely very intelligent, with the result that they can misconstrue the actual pitch and mistrack easily.

Octave up boxes take advantage of a particular approach to distorting the note. It's a kind of happy accident, rather than a harmonic-by-harmonic digital remapping of the original signal as in the case of harmonizers. The standard approach is to divide up the signal into positive- and negative-going halves of the signal. When one of those halves is inverted and recombined with the other half, you get something approximating twice the frequency.

While octave-up pedals CAN handle more than one note at a time without exploding, they are at their best when processing one note at a time. You won't hear clear octaves when you hit a chord, but you WILL hear a chord. Octave-down boxes simply cannot function if you feed them a chord. Period.

One underexploited option is use of ring-modulation for frequency doubling. If you feed a ring or "balanced" modulator two frequencies, you get their sum and difference at the output. If those two frequencies happen to be the same, then the sum and difference is double and nothing. In theory, at least, this should result in doubling without necessitating fuzz. Given the weirdness that happens when notes are bent, I'm not so sure how it works out in practice. As an aside, Aphex uses this approach in one of its exciter units to generate more harmonic content. They simply take the highs and upper mids, and modulate them in the manner described. Everything gets doubled and mixed back in with the straight signal.


----------



## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Thanks a lot for all that infos Mr Hammer! 
Now, for me I'm little confused now, with my bad english and my weakness about electronic stuff! Maybe my question wasn't that clear (in facts, I'm pretty sure it's my question) but I was wondering if it was a better choice to buy a fuzz and an octron to play some Jimi songs but in first some Wolfmother or get a fuzz for the rought part and an octavia or something similar to play the part with the octave up! Maybe the best is to try them all and see what is best for me! But again, thanks for all that infos now I can figure out things best about the fonctional aspect and maybe someday I'll understand everything you explain to me!


----------



## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

I'd try them if you can and see what you like. But for authentic band of gypsys, get an octave up like the Octavia or the Dano Foxx circuit and a decent fuzzface (like the new Dunlop BC108 ...or is it 109? or an analogman sunface or a fulltone 70).


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

D'accord. Maintenant je te comprend. Au moin, j'espère que je t'ai compris.

Il y a des fuzz-octaves ou l'octave est toujours la, et des fuzz-octaves ou c'est ton choix d'annuler l'octave ou non. Un example du dernier est le Foxx Tone Machine (et son clone, le Danelectro French Toast), qui comprend un commutateur pour sélecter entre fuzz pi fuzz+octave. Le défi est de trouver un pédale comme ça avec la capacité d'annuler l'octave, mais en même temp, une tonalité de fuzz qu'on aime bien. Moi, j'ai construit deux ou trois FTM, et même que j'aime son octave, comme un fuzz il ne serait pas mon premier choix. Franchement, il serait mon dixieme choix ou même plus bas.

Donc, il me semble que le premier étape serait d'identifier des pédales disponible qui peuvent annuler l'octave, et de sonder leur tonalité, simplement comme un fuzz. Si un pédale parmis eux réussit cette exigence, bon. Si non, peut etre il serait plus acceptable et satisfaisant d'acheter deux pédales, un pour la distortion, et l'autre pour l'octave.

Est que cette réponse repondre à tes besoins?

Ti-Marc


----------



## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Wow!! Merci beaucoup Marc!
I can't ask much than that, sorry for my misunderstood of your very nice explanation before! I'll try a couple of effect and came back to show you my choice! Damn gas! 
I admire people like you who can work on their own fx, I tried a little bit but my hand are full of thumbs and I burn my fingers most of the time! That is probably why I'm not into manual stuff in school! 
Thanks again, that was really clear and I respect alot the effort you did to put that in french! 

:food-smiley-004: Cheers Marc!


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

C'est pas mes efforts qui mérite des felicitations. C'est les efforts des enseignants et enseignantes à l'école linguistique gouvernmentale qui m'ont superbement formé. Tous que j'apprennais à l'école secondaire et au CEGEP à Montréal était des phrases et expressions "utiles" comme "J'ai bésoin d'un screwdriver Robertson pi un ratchet t'ree-four" et "Vends tu du biere?".

Il faut se souvenir aussi que ça me prennait environs 35 ans de sembler capable dans le domain des pédales. Si tu voyais mes projets venant des années 70, tu douterais bien sur mes capacités et la qualité de mon conseil. Et j'ai mes propres cicatrices aussi. J'en ai assez.

Ça vien, peut à peut. :smile:

Mark (Marc au Québec:smilie_flagge17


----------

