# Where is winter



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Well so far, at least here in the Niagara Region, we have yet to see any winter. Had one dusting back in November sometime. I am not complaining. There are some advantages I suppose. Heating bills have been way down, no snow removal etc. But I was reading a big article in the Toronto Star last week on the whole global warming thing. If some of these experts are right, it would seem in 50 years or so the world could be a much different place than we know it today.

I know for me, when we were kids we always had a rink in the backyard, usually it would last throughout the winter too. I don't think I have seen an outdoor rink in years around here. The temp just wont sustain it.


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

I saw a thing on the news the other night that said the mild winter (which is across Canada, except for lower mainland BC) is due to El Nino and not necessarily global warming. Apparently we've had record high temperatures similar to this back in the 1920's. Hard to know what to believe. I don't want to see our planet destroyed because of global warming, but is that really what this is? I have to admit that it's hard to hate these mild temps. I hate snow and always said that someday I'd move to Margaritaville. Maybe that means staying right where I am!


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Yes, I would agree. I am no scientist and you never know which side of the debate to go with. One thing for sure. When I was a kid we never covered ourselves with sunbloc like we have to today. So the intesity of the sun, or the damaging rays are certainly stronger then they were 25 years ago.


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## Xanadu (Feb 3, 2006)

i want to go snowbaording.


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## 2005fz1 (Oct 9, 2006)

Winter sucks . 











FZ1


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Its all part of being on a wobbly rock hurtling through space, and always twirling. If someone said the temperature was an exact constant I would say BS without any evidence needed. The temperatures have always fluctuated. Its a factor of many, many things, and those things have a much greater effect than green house gases. Just dont tell any global warming wackos, they'll go apeshit that you dont believe the sky is falling and were all going to die...................


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## BHarris (Feb 11, 2006)

I did some checking,, and it appears that Winter is vacationing in Colorada this month....


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## Guest (Jan 7, 2007)

"you never know which side of the debate to go with"
There's no debate... The scientific community has reached consensus (As much as they ever can... there are always some crack-pots who refuse to really examine evidence.. for a good example of those, look up the few people who try to say we never landed on the moon) The human race has messed up this planet something awful, and we only keep doing it, and things are only going to get worse unless we do something to turn it around and quick.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Youre right, we did mess it up. We totally turned Egypt into a desert, and we turned the north pole from a rich forest into a frozen wasteland. We did it because nothing is greater than the human race. No other factors but us are responsible...............


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Accept2 said:


> Its all part of being on a wobbly rock hurtling through space, and always twirling. If someone said the temperature was an exact constant I would say BS without any evidence needed. The temperatures have always fluctuated. Its a factor of many, many things, and those things have a much greater effect than green house gases. Just dont tell any global warming wackos, they'll go apeshit that you dont believe the sky is falling and were all going to die...................


If thats the case, and it very well may be, then there's not much we can do about it but hang on and take the ride.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*"Climate porn"*



Accept2 said:


> Youre right, we did mess it up. We totally turned Egypt into a desert, and we turned the north pole from a rich forest into a frozen wasteland. We did it because nothing is greater than the human race. No other factors but us are responsible...............


Yeah, that's us boomers. We think of the changes in our lifetime as if that was the whole of eternity. Before us was nothing and when we die the world will end...

In the Toronto Sun today there was an article talking about how so many predictions from the 70's turned out dead wrong, like the population explosion and an imminent Ice Age. The author used a term new to me: "climate porn". This refers to the avalanche of claims today where EVERYTHING to do with the climate is a crisis!

I have to smile when I hear some eco spokesperson on the tube refer to how there's an "overwhelming concensus" among scientists. What sort of scientist would ever take concensus as any kind of proof? We've had scientific concensus in our history on how the earth was the centre of the universe and how the world is flat! A fact is either true or it isn't and it makes NO difference whether one person or a billion believes it. 

Five billion flies eat crap. So much for concensus. If you're still not convinced then go the newstand and get a copy of "Weekly World". Judging by its circulation figures it's obvious there's a concensus that Bat Boy is indeed the love child of Saddam and Osama...

This doesn't mean of course that there's no global warming happening. It just means that there's a lot of folks that make sweeping claims with poor evidence or reasoning. The kid who cried wolf too often after all was eaten by one so there was indeed a wolf out there. The problem many of us doubters have is that we are not being asked to accept just the idea of global warming.

We are expected to swallow a huge bundle of concepts, namely that not only is global warming real but that it's all the fault of Man and that our only hope is to spend vast amounts of money and effort in the way THEY tell us we must! These are all very separate and distinct things. The globe may not actually be warming, or it may be somthing natural (it seems the eco-warriors flatly refuse to take into account the increased level of radiation coming from the sun. Apparently there are warming effects being seen on Mars as well.) Even if it is a real phenomenon why should we impoverish ourselves by taking advice without qualifying it to see if it's any good? There are a lot of starving people on this world. To divert monies from them on a "maybe" seems awfully cruel...

To go back to my boomer reference, who says the climate of the past hundred years is "normal" anyway? I once read about how when the Vikings first landed in Newfoundland it was warm enough there for grape growing!

Those poor folks on the Rock! They've been waiting 800 years to get warm again!:tongue:


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## TheTallCoolOne (May 15, 2006)

I do beleive it's all part of the natural cycles the earth goes thru.
It goes into a cold cycle then warms up and then cool down again, and on... and on... and on...

But does that mean we have to keep un polluting and accentuate the normal cycle effects?

If We, as the Human Race, want to survive thru what seems to be a pretty drastic change in the coming, we got to give ourselves as much chance as we can.

I think these different cycles should happen more on a gradual way, not the way they are happening right now. We are responsible for the speed up of these effects. What should be happening in a few hundred years will probably happen in less than a hundred. That's pretty fast in terms of the Earth life cycle.

And we do need those ecolo extremists to pull us in the direction of the change. Just as the women needed the femenist extremists to make the society realize the woman condition needed to be changed.

Now it's the Nature condition that is changing , and partially it is our fault.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Pollution is a problem, especially in the former and current commie countries where the environment is a complete disaster. Telling people the world is going to end isnt a good thing. It causes people to act in ways that can be dangerous. Just look at Kyoto. If Canada signed it in 1997, and nothing was changed, we would have sent lots of cash to African nations for their credits. Of the two paths, Kyoto, and not Kyoto which would be best for the environment? People can believe anything they want, some are convinced the earth is only 5000 years old and will say there is no scientific debate about that. They also claim we are all going to hell and the world is going to end. They too ignore the real scientific data, and only look at their own scientific data. Higher level dementions, tilt of the earths axis, orbital paths, fluctuations of what the sun puts out, those are all science fiction arent they..................


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## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

At this moment I don't care who or what is responsible for the weather, I'm just enjoying the commuting in generally good road conditions...


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## Coustfan'01 (Sep 27, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> there are always some crack-pots who refuse to really examine evidence.. for a good example of those, look up the people who try to say we landed on the moon) .


Fixed it for you :wave:


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*"Yeah, what he said!"*



Accept2 said:


> Pollution is a problem, especially in the former and current commie countries where the environment is a complete disaster. Telling people the world is going to end isnt a good thing. It causes people to act in ways that can be dangerous. Just look at Kyoto. If Canada signed it in 1997, and nothing was changed, we would have sent lots of cash to African nations for their credits. Of the two paths, Kyoto, and not Kyoto which would be best for the environment? People can believe anything they want, some are convinced the earth is only 5000 years old and will say there is no scientific debate about that. They also claim we are all going to hell and the world is going to end. They too ignore the real scientific data, and only look at their own scientific data. Higher level dementions, tilt of the earths axis, orbital paths, fluctuations of what the sun puts out, those are all science fiction arent they..................



You tell 'em, Mr. A! 

To add to your point about Kyoto, there is nothing in that treaty to audit the money received for "emission credits". Anybody who thinks that buying credits from Sudan means money for Sudanese anti-pollution measures instead of buying more bullets and rocket shells is naive in the extreme!

As to the point that we should listen to the doom-sayers so that we all move in the right direction - who's going to pay for the move and how much? Or are we all so rich we don't have to care?


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## TheTallCoolOne (May 15, 2006)

Yeah, sure, why put out some money to clean up the mess?
After all, our baby boomer generation will soon be dead so why care of what will happen to the following generations!

Never mind that the de-forestation is depleting the natural air filter of this world, that at the rate the glaciers are vanishing we'll soon get out of fresh water, that the industries are polluting the air so badly that there barely a kid born today that doens't have some sort of asthma condition right from the get go, and I could go on.

Air pollution, acid rain, de-forestation, all caused by human activities.
These are not natural phenomenons.
And we shouldn't put out some cash to clean it up?

I dunno, but I thought that most of us would clean up there respective place of living if it get messed up, even if it means going out and spend some money on cleaning products.

There are the "dooms day" extremists and there are the "not in my backyard" extremists. The truth and solution lie somewhere in between.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4480559399263937213&q=penn+teller


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

That is one of my favorites.


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## TheTallCoolOne (May 15, 2006)

Too bad I couldn't watch it to the end.
It keeps stoping a little before half.

But I got the point.
I offer this as a response though:
http://www.davidsuzuki.org/


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## nine (Apr 23, 2006)

Where's the winter? Damned if I know. My brand new snowboard would like some answers too.

It just sits in the corner. Taunting me.


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## sneakypete (Feb 2, 2006)

I once read that 98% of everything that ever existed is extinct...why should we think humans would be exempt from this? Not sure how accurate those figures were but the point was taken...Kurt Vonnegut said the earths immune system has been trying to get rid of us for some time now...and in my opinion, she will.
snowed here today for the first time this year, the country may face a water shortage this summer.


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## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

Woke up this morning and it was here.... everything covered in white... I think I hear the skidoo's cranking up.....


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## Stratocaster (Feb 2, 2006)

PaulS said:


> Woke up this morning and it was here.... everything covered in white... I think I hear the skidoo's cranking up.....


ALL WE GOT WAS RAIN!!! 

Lots of goddamn rain...


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Please dont post socialist websites as being the authority on science..........


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

The AAAS is a lobby group which does have real scientists, but like the church of Scientology, they have strict adherance to policy stance and stand as one once their board has selected a stance on social issues. They have chosen to support the global warming debate because the social implications of having 1st world countries send money to 3rd world ones adheres to their stance on social issues. I will read anything you put up, but the whole problem with these articles is they pretend that the opposition to their stance is not there, and they ignore other aspects of study.............


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Actually people who dont believe we landed on the moon also believe there is a global warming thing thats going to kill us all. I am sure there is scientific consensus in China that we didnt land on the moon, but it doesnt take away from the fact that we did...............


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Actually people who dont believe we landed on the moon also believe there is a global warming thing thats going to kill us all. I am sure there is scientific consensus in China that we didnt land on the moon, but it doesnt take away from the fact that we did...............


Well, actually someone else did! It wasn't us but rather Uncle Sam. 

I think we Canadians are still running a government commission to decide if space exploration is a federal or a provincial matter...


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

NASA is indeed political. Nothing can get done because too many times they are more worried about about political things rather than getting work done. Its the same with the environment as spelled out in this thread. No one argues against the fact that there is a pollution problem. No one argues the fact that climate does change. But, if you dont toe the political line that certain parties are to blame for environmental damage laid out by a "scientific concensus" you are a denier. These people have never seen environmental damage because they all live in the US and Canada where the damage is comparatively minimal. If we didnt have so many politicos on this planet we would be on so many more planets.............


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

jroberts said:


> If guys like yourself and Wild Bill want to believe that global warming is a socialist plot, that the danger of second hand smoke is some communist ruse or that the moon landing was some Marxist trickery, you go ahead and believe what you will.


You mean they're not? :wink: 

Yep, anything remotely critical of the way we live is quickly deemed "socialist" regardless of the evidence, logic, research, you point out. Ever been to the "plexi palace" boards . . . oh man . . .:confused-smiley-010 

I keep getting pulled into these "debates" too even though its obvious certain individuals won't change their minds no matter how you refute their "arguments." It seems those most critical of science seem to hold some privileged, direct, access to reality that others do not possess . . . They also tend to use science's greatest strength, it's never ending critique, reflexivity, and tentative nature, against science: anything they don't like is simply disregarded because _all_ scientific conclusion is open to refutation and revision.

I could go on and on about what “facts” are, what rejecting the null hypothesis actually means, etc but I'd be wasting my energy . . . somebody will simply point out that scientific consensus has been wrong in the past and therefore it doesn’t “mean anything.” Of course, they conveniently fail to discuss how often it IS right.

Basically, if science isn’t omnipotent, then it must be worthless. Such false dichotomies go nowhere fast . . .

TG


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## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

Where's winter ????? why just round the corner, more white stuff on the way. No moonwalking or science... Just some cold weather and white wet stuff.. :wink:


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

The secret to these kinds of threads is to express your opinion and then leave it. No sense in getting into a major debate, unless that can be done without getting personal. So feel free to say what you believe, if somone does not agree, that is their choice and they have the right to that opinion.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Correct, no one here is an absolute expert on the universe.............


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## rippinglickfest (Jan 1, 2006)

*Wheres Winter*

It was a little strange spending Christmas without snow...up here in northern Ontario......something I've experienced for the first time in my 42 years.
Maybe now the locals can put the usused snow removal budget towards repairing some of these damn roads.

Happy New Year
Ray


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## Guest (Jan 9, 2007)

"no one here is an absolute expert on the universe"
Fortunately it's not a requirement.... 

"For the "head in the sand" crowd"
Good article! Too bad the people who need it most refuse to see it


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*Warning! Bad pun ending!*



GuitarsCanada said:


> No sense in getting into a major debate, unless that can be done without getting personal.



Truer words never spoken! Some folks enjoy debate. Others take it as heresy and an attack on their "faith". Historically, most folks are bothered by having neighbours that don't agree with them on major issues. Perhaps its an insecurity about their own views that gets them upset. In a debate we deal with reason but if your world view is based on faith then reason makes some uncomfortable, as it forces you to come up with good or better reasons for what you choose to believe. 

So I suggest everyone should feel free to toss in an opinion or two, hopefully with something to back it up. That's how we all learn new things.

But when the crankbags show up the best thing IMHO is to simply bail. When someone gets personal the thread becomes pointless. Simple scolding and insults are poor reasons for anyone to change their mind.

In the words of Spider Robinson's "Doc" from his "Callaghan's Saloon" stories:
"You can lead a horticulture but you can't make her think!"


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Im glad to be a head in the sand dude. When I see the studies of the atmosperes of Mars, Saturn, and Jupiter and then those finding being applied to Earth, I find it strange that the doom sayers have ommitted any reference to these studies and pretend they dont exist. Theyd rather claim we are all going to die unless we send money to Africa to buy pollution credits. Strange that they dont head for the hills themselves if they are true believers...................


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Strange that they dont head for the hills themselves if they are true believers...................



Shades of the HitchHiker's Guide to the Galaxy's "B Ark"!


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## sneakypete (Feb 2, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Correct, no one here is an absolute expert on the universe.............


I thought the Americans were?


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## ShadowRiffer (Apr 19, 2006)

Well where ever winter was before, its sure as hell here now. Its 30 below with the wind chill here.


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## rippinglickfest (Jan 1, 2006)

*Old Man Winter*

I guess we all knew it was just a matter of time
-37 here in Sudbury, ontario today with the windchill............Brrrrrrrrrrrr!!


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