# Listening to solid state gutiar stuff for fairly long periods...



## GuitaristZ (Jan 26, 2007)

makes me feel sick. I dont know why, and I am not joking. For some reason, if I play a solid state guitar amp it makes me feel sick after a while...I get like a weird feeling...mainly in my head....almost like a dull headache. This condition is even worse when listening to any digital pedals....doesnt matter how expensive...line 6, boss gt8, etc...


I can play any all tube amp for hours and not get this problem at all...even at loud volumes. Is there an explanation for this?

I need to listen to tubes again....aah....good ol' tubes.... Drool Drool Drool 

Time for the tube pledge:


I pledge allegiance to tube amps and to the wonderful tone they make. haha


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

you're weird man


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

+1 to noobcake, lol.

They each serve their purpose equally, tone is subjective. That said, I prefer tube amps but I also like me a good solid state Randall. Hybrid amps sound decent, then there's digital... well, I don't like that stuff at all.


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## GuitaristZ (Jan 26, 2007)

violation said:


> +1 to noobcake, lol.
> 
> They each serve their purpose equally, tone is subjective. That said, I prefer tube amps but I also like me a good solid state Randall. Hybrid amps sound decent, then there's digital... well, I don't like that stuff at all.


you guys dont get these weird "headaches" when listening to solid state stuff?
For one thing, "weird" is subjective. I find people who prefer solid state amps to be quite weird.
maybe I just have better ears than you....haha 

I have a few hypotheses to put up...

hypothesis 1: With solid state amplifiers and pedals...maybe you have to turn up the volume more to get the same amount of clarity etc,..and maybe THAT'S what is causing the headaches...

hypothesis 2:

Solid state amplifiers do not reproduce the chimey good wonderful harmonics and frequencies that tube amps do and thus do not give your ears the same pleasure haha or whatever


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

Heard of a little guy called Dimebag (aka GOD)? SS pretty much all his career... even when he had the Krank amps out during shows, he was playing through the Randalls. Tell me that man didn't have a good ear, picked apart Kirk Hammet, EVH and Randy Rhoads solos back in the 80's. 

If I'm at a friends house I drag my step dad's MG30DFX with me, which is quite possibly the most harsh, worst sounding amplifier known to man and I still don't get a headache or anything.

It's all in your head, lol.


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## GuitaristZ (Jan 26, 2007)

violation said:


> Heard of a little guy called Dimebag (aka GOD)? SS pretty much all his career... even when he had the Krank amps out during shows, he was playing through the Randalls. Tell me that man didn't have a good ear, picked apart Kirk Hammet, EVH and Randy Rhoads solos back in the 80's.
> 
> If I'm at a friends house I drag my step dad's MG30DFX with me, which is quite possibly the most harsh, worst sounding amplifier known to man and I still don't get a headache or anything.
> 
> It's all in your head, lol.


dimebag = high gain crap

if you want good tone...the good tone of a tube amp just beginning to break up....just a little bit of dirt...but not much...no solid state can match that.

high gain metal, etc...yeah...that stuff gives me a headache...doesnt matter what its played through haha.


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## Rumble_b (Feb 14, 2006)

I own a tube amp and I like the sound of it, I've also played through many tube amps and like them a lot. But my main amp is a late 80's-early 90's solid state randall(RG80-112SC covered in black and white snake skin, oh yeah!). I've shopped for new amps but none of them had the sound I wanted. The thing sounds great, works great with pedals and can take a beating. I'll never get rid of it.


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## Skoczylas (Mar 27, 2007)

After hearing Soild States and the tube amps. Tube is the only way to go. Well at least for overdrives.. I actually don't mind Soild State Cleans at all. Only benifit of having a tube amp for cleans it is has some nice balls to it.


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## Cross (Jan 8, 2007)

I did not vote since neither of the two options represents what I believe. They are opposite extremes.

I own a solid state amp, it's all I can afford at this moment in time. With my most recent setup, I have a Crate Powerblock paired with a Marshall 1936 and I get all my tonal variations from a Digitech GNX 3000 floor modeler. As I have been playing with this rig for over half a year, I can say that I am fairly content with my sound and I do not intend to purchase a tube amplifier any time soon. Even if I were to save up for any more gear-related items, chances are I would be spending it on a nice new axe over a tube amp. That is not to say that I do not prefer a solid state amp over a tube amp - I think that maybe I'm just not as experienced or dialed into the tone department like some of the more experienced players on this forum. Thus I don't really have GAS attacks for tube amps. Cool guitars on the other hand give me great GAS pains 

All of my favorite artists use tube amps. They also have great tone, but as far as I'm concerned, my SS amp's tone suits me just as well. As was mentioned earlier in this thread, good tone is subjective and as you are entitled to your opinion, I must respect that. However please don't go about imposing your beliefs onto others. Afterall, it all boils down what comes out of those amps - music.


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## GuitaristZ (Jan 26, 2007)

Cross said:


> As was mentioned earlier in this thread, good tone is subjective and as you are entitled to your opinion, I must respect that. However please don't go about imposing your beliefs onto others. Afterall, it all boils down what comes out of those amps - music.


Good tone may be subjective, but trust me, after you play a few good tube amps, you will not want to go back to solid state. Tubes just respond to your playing so well, and the little nuances and very small things just make the biggest difference to me.


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## Cross (Jan 8, 2007)

GuitaristZ said:


> Good tone may be subjective, but trust me, after you play a few good tube amps, you will not want to go back to solid state. Tubes just respond to your playing so well, and the little nuances and very small things just make the biggest difference to me.


Fair enough. One of these days I'll hop on the tube amp bandwagon - right after I get my PRS first and foremost :food-smiley-004: I just wish there were an option where you could select that you appreciate BOTH tubes and solid state amps!


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Agreed tubes work much better for dynamics and whatnot but getting a headache from listening to ss amps wow... It's not that your ears are good, it's that you're needlessly sensitive as hell:tongue: .


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## offkey_ (Jan 29, 2007)

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm tubes


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

Skoczylas said:


> After hearing Soild States and the tube amps. Tube is the only way to go. Well at least for overdrives.. I actually don't mind Soild State Cleans at all. Only benifit of having a tube amp for cleans it is has some nice balls to it.


Roland Jazz Chorus is one of the best amps for clean tones that I've played, and it's solid state!



GuitaristZ said:


> Good tone may be subjective, but trust me, after you play a few good tube amps, you will not want to go back to solid state. Tubes just respond to your playing so well, and the little nuances and very small things just make the biggest difference to me.


We own 2 tube Marshall heads and occasionally I still bring out the Valvestate one. You can't say "trust me, after you play a few good tube amps, you will not want to go back to solid state", it's all about preference and what the person wants out of the amp.

MAB used SS Randalls and I'm sure he had access to tube amps. Dave Mustaine is using SS pre-amp and power amp at the moment and he definetly has access to tube amps. I could go on for awhile, but I think you get the idea.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

I find it interesting getting feedback from my customers about this issue. It seems only some jazz players and many of the hardcore guys like SS amps. Talk about extremes!

From a tech standpoint it's not all that surprising. SS/transistors amplify cleaner than tubes. Mind you, tubes can be much cleaner than the human ear can normally detect. It's going into and dropping out of distortion that tells the tale. Transistors seem to snap from clean to "fuzz". They don't have that range where the tone gets warmer and thicker before the distortion goes over the top.

Since jazz guys don't normally play with distortion they can be happy with a Polytone SS amp. Not all of them, but many.

Hard Metal was born from preamp distortion in the 80's. The master volume is normally down a lot and so there's little or no thick and creamy power amp distortion happening. It's all "crunch". SS circuits can't do power amp distortion but they can indeed "crunch".

Mind you, it's easy to tempt a hardcore player into using tubes. Play some classic metal from bands like Mountain and he'll quickly learn he has no chance in nailing that tone with a SS amp.

I still maintain that one of the major issues with SS amps is that in the long run they can cost the player more money! The circuit boards are usually soldered by machines and are much more difficult to work on. Which means many extra labour hours to pay for in a repair. 

Modding a SS amp beyond a few simple tricks is out of the question unless you have unlimited amounts of money and will pay more than to buy a new amp. The wires are "cast in stone" on the circuit board. You can't move 'em around like in an old tube amp.

Things are going to heat up over these issues, I predict. I've heard that since "the big F" moved their production to China they can't support replacement parts for servicing. They have to get entire boards brought over, at an entire board price. So they place these amps on a "Replacement only - Do not repair!" list!

What does this mean? Well, first of all the quality seems reasonably ok. So the odds are good that you won't have a problem, at least during the early years when you have a warranty.

If you have a problem during warranty they give you another amp! As a customer you'll be impressed. Wow! They just handed you a whole new amp! What great guys!

It's a different story after the warranty is over. You're on your own, with an amp that likely is an expensive PITA for your tech to service. Like a Bic lighter, I guess. Disposable. If you need a non-catalogue part like a "slider" in the EQ that was custom made for that model you can't buy one from an electronics parts store at all.

There hasn't been enough time for incidents to crop up about this policy. We will see over the next few years any reaction among players about buying such amps.

By now it's obvious I don't like SS amps but I'm speaking here not as an old guy weaned on non-master volume 100 watt JMPs cranked up to 10 but as a tech who adds up your repair bill!

Many shops in the US have decided on a "NO SS AMPS" policy. When you think about it it's easy to see why. Most good shops have more business than they can handle. Folks complain about the backlog wait. If SS amps are a pain to work on and make your customers grumpy about getting a big bill, why bother? Just don't take 'em in to your shop in the first place!

Older SS amps aren't quite so bad but many of the newer ones are really cramped and difficult inside. The factory obviously doesn't care about servicing at all, just how cheaply can those machines put the amp together on the assembly line. More money in their pocket...

When someone brings me a SS amp I check it out thoroughly over the phone BEFORE I decide to take it on. Sometimes the bill will make it more sensible to pick up a used amp instead. I don't want to spend a lot of hours of MY time to find that out! I can't afford it and besides, it means my customers with better amps (tubes!) have to wait even longer while I curse over the SS amp.

The polite excuse is to say "Gee, I'm really booked up and I don't want you to have to wait! Why don't you take my competitor's card and see him about your SS amp?"

I'd rather see my competitor have the aggravation!:tongue:


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...for me, both serve a distinct purpose. i prefer solid state amps for low volume, late night playing. i find they reproduce all the frequencies with less effort than tubes at low volume.

at higher volumes, solid state is just unsatisfying. very little depth, dimension, dynamics or warmth.

i remember when solid state amps first appeared - those big kustom stacks with the rolled and pleated naughahyde. when you cranked them it was like taking a dentist's drill to your ear drums.

-dh


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## GuitaristZ (Jan 26, 2007)

thanks for your input everybody, especially wild bill and mr henman.

you guys really know your stuff, and bring up some very valid and intersting points to consider.


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## Michelle (Aug 21, 2006)

david henman said:


> .........
> i remember when solid state amps first appeared - those big kustom stacks with the rolled and pleated naughahyde. when you cranked them it was like taking a dentist's drill to your ear drums.
> 
> -dh


Oh yeah! I remember those David, so cool lookin and they were good bass amps, apparently.


I didn't vote, I like both, for bass, my mainstay, it's solid state all the way, I used to have an early 70's 50W Marshall half-stack, (kickin' my ass now!), for bass and it wasn't to my liking, I didn't play guitar then. My Ampeg has FET output section, they work similar to tubes, so I dunno, love the Ampeg so much, I want another to fill the empty rack space. (....here we go again!)

For guitar, I'm all for tubes, I like the harmonics in the feedback and it is good to warm your hands when you are doin the garage thing.  I never tried a ss guitar amp and I'm not a guitarist anyway, I'm a bass player that likes to wind-out/thrash on guitar with as much volume and energy as possible. (Bass/Jekyll - Guitar/Hyde)

None of this give me a headache but I'm sure the neighbours get 'em.

Mich


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## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

I've never heard of ppl getting sick from SS amps but I do not doubt you. I'll put my money on bad freqs... sorta like fluorecent lighting casing headaches.

I truely believe tube amps are better sounding for the most part but then there is the Roland Jazz chorus and another amp I cannot remember the name of but is made in England by a high fi builder and it does soft clip like a tube amp... it was reviewed by GW I believe... it really souded amazing but the price tag was over the top.

I'm surly not going to try and convince anyone that SS amps all sound like crap... thats simply untrue.

As was mentioned before Dime had some break thru tones with Randall SS amps and I myself owned a Randall RG 80 and it was actually quite impressive especially for an amp built in 1983!

The whole DIGITALrevolution has just begun... I remember hearing the first POD and Flextone amps and thinking what CRAP... now they actually sound good! Where will they be in another 6-7 years... 10... 15... 20 years...

Khing


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## GuitaristZ (Jan 26, 2007)

KHINGPYNN said:


> I remember hearing the first POD and Flextone amps and thinking what CRAP... now they actually sound good! Where will they be in another 6-7 years... 10... 15... 20 years...
> 
> Khing


in 15 or so years...they will be outdated and again replaced by tubes...hahaha!

good points though, thanks! I shouldn't of said ALL solid state stuff is bad...I suppose there are some exceptional ss amps that do sound good.  thanks again!!!


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## Skoczylas (Mar 27, 2007)

Kinda funny how a lot of old things kinda don't become outdated.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I used to be in love with tube amps until I got a Roland Jazz Chorus. That was the end of all my tube amps. Tube amps require too much maintenance, and they are too tempermental. Basic tube amps like the Soldano Hot Rod 50 are great because theyre just one trick ponies, but I think I spent more time figgiting with my Mesa Mark than I did playing it. The fact is, solid state amps have gotten better and better as time went on, whereas tube amps simply just got more gain, and some of those tube amps are using solid state technology to get that extra gain. And then there is the switching in tube amps. I still have a Kitty Hawk tube preamp, and it just begs for digital switching.................


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I can't respond to this poll because there needs to be at least one more option.




Personally I listen first and note the technical characteristics later.

If it sounds good, why the heck would I care if it's tube, SS Hybrid or modeler?


Right now I'm using a tube amp, but I would have no reservations in changing that.

I think we guitarists tend to spend too much time worrying about the nuts and bolts and not enough time worrying about the audience.


Just my opinion of course.


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## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

What about hybrids ???? I've heard a lot of them, tube preamp into SS power amp. Some sound really sweet, like the old MusicMans.


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

PaulS said:


> What about hybrids ???? I've heard a lot of them, tube preamp into SS power amp. Some sound really sweet, like the old MusicMans.


I own one of the newer Marshall AVT50's and it sounds pretty decent, very good for a crunchy rock tone... add an overdrive pedal, scoop the mids a bit and you can get some decent metal tones. Cleans aren't too bad either. 

From what I've played, I'd go:

Tube > Hybrid > Solid State > Digital.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i agree that there are some great solid state amps out there. i have always liked the peavey transtube technology, and roland amps are really well respected.

the one that really blows me away, however, is the tech 21 trademark series.

i just bought one from a fellow forumite here to use as a backup and jamming amp. i'd defy anyone in a blindfold test to discern that this is a solid state amp!

-dh


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

*Tube vs Solid State*

Solid state amps and tube amps distort differently - as mopst people know and more than a few have stated. Tube amps have a natural compression and their harmonic content when driven hard is musical. Solid state, on the other hand clips hard (if there is no compression circuit to prevent it), and can produce harmonic content that spans the audio frequency spectrum and beyond.

Overdriving a SS amp can produce ultrasonic frequencies, most of which will not be produced faithfully by a 12 inch instument speaker at a volume that is heard over the sound of your guitar that you are listening to.

Now, if your amp is so equiped, plug in some headphones. You'll be reaching to turn down the high end imediately as the headphones more accurately produce a broader frequency range so the additional 'noise' in the top end becomes immediately apparent. Same thing happens when you throw a mic in front of it and put it through a PA, as the high end that you don't hear all that well is picked up by the mic and amplified by a full range system. Same goes for recording, and I believe that this is the number one reason that most people do not like direct line outs and cabinet simulators on guitar amps - because they reproduce the sound of the amp faithfully, but not the sound of the guitar cabinet with its limited range.

Tube amps are not ammune to the same problem, I've dealt with more than a few Marshalls where the player insisted on having the presence cranked to ten. I have to figure that these players can no longer hear the top end noise that their amps make when they do this, as eveyone else's ears are bleeding and they still apear to think that they have 'tone'.

I use a hybrid amp, I have a tube preamp and a good quality solid state power amp. The power amp is never driven into clipping, it is just there for transparent amplification of the tube preamp. I also use full range stage monitors instead of plain old guitar cabinets, as this allows me to take a line out of my preamp that resembles the tone that I hear when I play.

I don't really think that one type of amp in necessarily better than the other, I've heard all kinds of amps sound great. It think that part of the problem that tube guys have with solid state amps is that they tend to try to make them work in the same way, and it allot of cases it just doesn't work out.

If you look back at the time when CD audio and digital recording first came out, you will see that there were allot of people that resisted the change as they liked the way analog tape sounded (some still don't like digital). One of the reasons things took a while to come around was that people were set in their ways and were applying analog recording techniqes to the new digital medium, and it wasn't working.

If you listen with your ears, and not your eyes, I don't think anyone will have any trouble at all getting a good sound out of just about anything. If there is too much high end, reach down and turn the treble knob to the left regardless of what the number on the dial says. Gain structure varies from rig to rig, and tone varies from room to room and changes through the night. Make adjustments accordingly.

A little side note:

The human ear has a self protecting mechanism that will prevent hearing damage to a certain degree. This function is impared by alcohol. If you drink when you play, use earplugs. This protection mechanism can cause headaches, aggresive behaviour and hearing fatigue when it is over utilized.


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## GuitaristZ (Jan 26, 2007)

thanks for that information hamm...there is stuff there I never knew before.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

GuitaristZ said:


> makes me feel sick. I dont know why, and I am not joking. For some reason, if I play a solid state guitar amp it makes me feel sick after a while...I get like a weird feeling...mainly in my head....almost like a dull headache. This condition is even worse when listening to any digital pedals....doesnt matter how expensive...line 6, boss gt8, etc...



...i get the same reaction when i hear a dionne warwick recording. i think its an allergy to music that has no soul.

-dh


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## Coustfan'01 (Sep 27, 2006)

You guys know that your sound system is solid state , right? 

I know tube amps generally sound better , but I think it's mostly because they're also higher end than most solid state amps . I'm pretty sure a vetta sounds better than the lower end peaveys , and I'm totally sure it's a lot more versatile than almost any tube amp . And I think that if more efforts were put into creating high end solid state amps , A LOT of people would prefer to buy something more versatile and reliable than tube amps .


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*"Just the same, only different!"*



Coustfan'01 said:


> You guys know that your sound system is solid state , right?
> 
> I know tube amps generally sound better , but I think it's mostly because they're also higher end than most solid state amps . I'm pretty sure a vetta sounds better than the lower end peaveys , and I'm totally sure it's a lot more versatile than almost any tube amp . And I think that if more efforts were put into creating high end solid state amps , A LOT of people would prefer to buy something more versatile and reliable than tube amps .


Non, non et non, mon ami!

To respond to your last point first, I'm a tech. I would consider a vintage hand-wired tube amp to be far more reliable than most solid state amps today. What's more, most solid state amps are more of a PITA to repair. This means they will cost you more money to service.

Now, on to the sound differences!

It's all because of physics. Tubes and solid state devices work in a completely different manner.

Solid state is less distortion, for the money. Tube hifi amps have great distortion ratings but to do the same thing transistors are much cheaper.

That's why your stereo sound system is solid state. You've already recorded the sound onto a CD or whatever. You don't want it to be changed in any way by the amplifier, except for volume and a bit of tone shaping to suit the acoustics of your listening room.

An electric guitar is SUPPOSED to have distortion! Who the hell wants a hifi guitar amp, except maybe Barney Kessel? You are CREATING the sound and not merely reproducing it! The amp is part of the tone generating system, along with the guitar and any effects. Changing the amp to solid state is a major change.

This is the crux of the whole matter. To add to what Hammguitars has said, tubes and transistors distort much differently. Tubes have a "soft" attack as you drive them into distortion. Initially, the clipping on peaks is rounded off a bit and you don't even notice. In fact, the sound may seem thicker, warmer and more pleasant! You have a long way before the distortion may become objectionable.

Transistor/solid state devices are very different. If you graph it you'd follow a straight line rather than a curve, where things are clean clean clean and then --fuzz!

They clip "hard" and distortion tends to immediately jump out at you. The usual example given is how when studios first went to solid state they found that with strong singers or high "spikes" from snare drum hits or whatever they got strong distortion into the front end of the board. They had to pad down the signal "big time" to keep it clean. It wasn't that solid state was adding distortion. The same distortion might have been there before with the tube gear. It's just that the tubes masked it pleasantly whereas solid state made it nasty and obvious.

Here's a link for those who want to explore more deeply:

http://www.decware.com/debate2.htm

Tubes were used in the genesis of rock and roll and so we were accustomed to that sound. Solid state amps need to be made to sound similar to be accepted but that's a difficult task. You're fighting the very nature of a solid state device. Some amps come close but it requires a complicated circuit, often defeating the purpose of not using tubes in the first place!

If rock had begun with solid state amps then that's what we would have been weaned on and all amps would have been transistorized but that's just not the way history was written.

If you've never heard a real cranked up tube amp then you won't know what you're missing. It's like never having had ice cream, or sex! A year or two ago I went to a nearby club that was featuring a band made up of guys from our local rock FM station. They were a classic rock band. I lasted an hour and had to leave. I just couldn't stand it!

It's not that they weren't good musicians. They were great! It's just that I'm an old guy used to hearing Plexi stacks cranked loud. These guys were all solid state. The guitarist hurt my ears the worst. He was playing a Solid State Peavey with a mess of pedals. 

There was just no head room or dynamics to his tonel. It was like he had a quilt over his speakers. He'd stomp a pedal to go into a lead and although the tone changed his volume stayed the same. There was no emphasis to his leads at all. If Angus Young had heard him covering some AC/DC songs he would have kicked his balls higher than Los Lobos!

Everything seemed compressed and "schmaltzy". Especially the sound mix! I don't know where they got their sound guy but it wasn't a live off the floor mix. It was a "car radio" mix!

Yet all the young folks on the dance floor were having a great time! They had never heard the songs the way they were supposed to sound so it didn't bother them. I guess to their ears an MP3 player was the height of audiophile sound quality. 

Oh well, at least they weren't dancing to Abba covers.


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## GuitaristZ (Jan 26, 2007)

+1 Thanks for the info Bill!


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## nine (Apr 23, 2006)

Headaches from SS amps? Puh-leeze. 

Psychosomatic much? :tongue:


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## GuitaristZ (Jan 26, 2007)

seriously though...since I posted this I have met a few people that seem to get the same symptoms


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

Go find a Randall RG100ES or a similar model from the 80's... like the Mesa of solid state amps, lol even sounds better than _some_ high gain tube amps IMO.

Still prefer the 6505 (or 5150, as far as I know they're the same though) or JSX (aka next purchase) though! :tongue:


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## Xanadu (Feb 3, 2006)

I don't know what you're talking about. My guitarist's Roland Jazz Chorus sounds pretty damn fine.
Maybe you're just biased, and you think that you're getting a headache because you're telling yourself that you are.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Its all bias from people who believe what they use should be used by everyone else. Remember you must conform, there must be no deviation. Ask BB King what he thinks of solid state amps. I think he knows a thing or two about tone. And there are many other legendary guitarists who also prefer it. Tone is in the fingers dudes, you either have it or you dont, and no juju is gonna help that..........


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## GuitaristZ (Jan 26, 2007)

you guys must not have played a good tube amp....


Im not joking here in any way. I have played a few good solid state amps, but no randalls or anything that expensive. I have played a few rolands, but they are nothing special for me.

I have played various effects pedals. I have played the pod XT live, BOSS ME50, some zoom stuff, and various others.


NOTHING...and I mean NOTHING comes close to the "feel", "response", and musical distortion of a tube amp. they just sound SO smooth! Plus, it actually feels like you are playing the instrument...it is like an extension of yourself. hard to explain...but I would NEVER go back to solid state...forget it

And no, I do not have hearing problems. I took classical piano for more than 6 years and I do not listen to music very loud in a confined space. My hearing is quite sensitive.


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

I agree with you 100% on the Tech 21 David. I have a Trademark 60 that I bought from the 12th Fret when they first came out and they really do have a great tone to them. I do have 2 tube amps as well, a 1970 Fender Champ and a Peavey Classic 30 and the Tech 21 holds its own.



david henman said:


> ...i agree that there are some great solid state amps out there. i have always liked the peavey transtube technology, and roland amps are really well respected.
> 
> the one that really blows me away, however, is the tech 21 trademark series.
> 
> ...


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

This thread is starting to remind me of those tv commercials for magnetic bracelets to cure arthritis pain.

Anybody who knows how magnetism and your body chemistry works knows it's all BS.

Doesn't matter. They sell a LOT of 'em! And most of their customers swear by them.

A true blindfold test is rarely done between tube and solid state. We also rarely hear from guys who've played both, cranked loud on stage. The SS champions usually have little or no tube experience and are simply trying to convince themselves that their solid state amp truly sounds great!

I'm reminded of an incident two summers ago involving the late great Mark Severn. Mark was an extremely well respected guitarist who had played with many of the famed artists and was always in demand for studio sessions. He used to bring me his Marshall Valvestate for repair (if you've ever owned one you'd know that Mark and I must have spent a lot of time together!) and would always try to convince me that his setup sounded just as good as a tube amp. When he began to lose the argument he would always switch the issue to how tube amps were too heavy for him to lug around, which is completely a separate issue of course.

Anyhow, he got involved in a Sunday afternoon jam held at a club called Attica in Niagara Falls. I came out and brought one of my Traynor into Plexi projects and a 2x12 Celestion cab. I set it up on stage and waited for the "jammers" to start. 

At first guys were using Mark's rig but eventually one of them tried mine. After that not a single person would use Mark's Valvestate! I didn't say anything and neither would Mark but me and his vocalist were quietly watching him walk nonchalantly around the club while someone was wailing my amp, trying not to look like he was checking out the tone! Finally we couldn't help it anymore and burst out laughing! He gave a rueful grin and just came back and clapped his hand on my shoulder.

I'm NOT claiming that my amp was "special" but just that it was a great tube Plexi sound. There must have been over 20 guitarists at that jam and ALL of them went for the tube amp!

If some folks like solid state better, so what! People are entitled to believe any cockamamie thing they want. That's freedom!

Excuse me, I'm off to read my horoscope while listening to Tom Sholtz and Boston.:tongue:


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## nine (Apr 23, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> This thread is starting to remind me of those tv commercials for magnetic bracelets to cure arthritis pain.


Hahaha. No kidding. Every time that commercial comes on I mock it.


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## Zeegler (Jan 2, 2006)

Yes, I'm the same way. Years ago, I had a Peavey Supreme 160 head. After band practice, my head always hurt, and I was very irritable. I call it solid state fatigue. I only play tube amps now, and it doesn't matter how loud I play, I never feel like that any more.


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## GuitaristZ (Jan 26, 2007)

I Huff Paint said:


> Yes, I'm the same way. Years ago, I had a Peavey Supreme 160 head. After band practice, my head always hurt, and I was very irritable. I call it solid state fatigue. I only play tube amps now, and it doesn't matter how loud I play, I never feel like that any more.


 good to know im not alone


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

violation said:


> Heard of a little guy called Dimebag (aka GOD)? SS pretty much all his career... even when he had the Krank amps out during shows, he was playing through the Randalls. Tell me that man didn't have a good ear, picked apart Kirk Hammet, EVH and Randy Rhoads solos back in the 80's.
> 
> If I'm at a friends house I drag my step dad's MG30DFX with me, which is quite possibly the most harsh, worst sounding amplifier known to man and I still don't get a headache or anything.
> 
> It's all in your head, lol.


1) i do not like dimebag's tone, and for the life of me cannot figure out why he went that route. its original...but that doesnt make it great. his PLAYING is great!

2) i had an MG100DFX. i loved it when i got it! then jims (he's here somewhere) said "yeah, its tube amps that get that tone on x band y song that we really like, eh?" "whats a tube amp?" "we have solid state, like your marshall, and basically its tubes to power it instead of other stuff" "oh ok cool" *budda plugs into YCV40/YCV80, sells MG, buys YCV80, never looks back*.

MG's arent the worst SS amps, i'd put a line 6 spider II in there miiighty fast - you can not really get a full sound out of them, the mids just arent there.

all that said, if im going SS it had better say "peavey". if im going tube, it can say anything  lol. i dont get headaches playing or listening to SS stuff, i get headaches when there's too much bass or if my head hurt before i put music on.

tubes FTW, but sometimes i want the XXL, and my rage 158 back


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Budda said:


> ...sometimes i want the XXL, and my rage 158 back



...the peavey rage 158 - one of the best recording amps i have ever used!

-dh


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)




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## GuitaristZ (Jan 26, 2007)

Printed and stuck onto my guitar case


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## mike7 (May 13, 2007)

good tone is good tone. It doesn't matter if it's solid state or tube. Most of the time tubes will sound better, but don't judge solid states by budget beginner models.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I think there is a place for both. I'd have to vote for both, and since I can't, I will not vote for either.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

As long as you arent pushing a solid state amp into clipping they sound fine.

I'd rather use a high quality solid state amp like a JC120 or a Hughes and Kettner than a crap tube amp.


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## Mr Yerp (Feb 24, 2006)

Cool subject. I think that good tone is good tone, no matter the source. In spite of being a hard core tube user, I had the pleasure of using a Lab Series L7 for a few years. An incredibly warm amp, and all pedals (mainly a Tube King at the time) sounded killer through it. I regretfully sold it as my back hated the weight and bulk. :smile:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Tubes

I think they sound best when powered by a coal fired generator. None of that clean consistant power from the grid.


If REALLY necessary a deisel generator is acceptable.

It's also advisable to move it to the gig in a horse drawn carriage. The magnetic fields created by modern ignition systems will suck the tone right out of your amp.


Once you're at the gig, if the sound man tries to put one of those new fangled mics in front of your amp, tell him you only use a non powered megaphone that you got from Al Jolson's grandfather.



:rockon:


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I like both, but the problem I've had with tube amps is that sometimes the tone changes the longer you play. That bugs me me. Maybe it was just from cheap amps or cheap tubes--some of those were Fenders too. But I've played other tube amps that didn't lose their tone--including Fender amps.

My main amp for many, many years has been a Roland JC-60. I've jammed for hours and no ill effects.

So as long as I can get a tone I like, and I'm flexible there--I hate shrill and I hate muddy, I'm not picky either way.


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## Big White Tele (Feb 10, 2007)

I get a headache whenever I play a tube amp with 5881's, They suck!!! Pull em and put in some 6l6GC's, and not the cheap stuff either, only 40 year old made in America tubes...make sure there biased at 34.23439, at 455v., anything else, and i wanna puke...:sport-smiley-002:


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

I've played through ONE solid state amp I ever liked


if I see another one cheap I'll buy it, I'll let the cat out of the bag after I have mine 

other than that they do sound annoying to me


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

I think both have a place in our music and is decided by the dollar.

For playing at home at decent levels a SS makes more sense, yes a tube will go that quiet too but I found it harder to get the right tones. The SS is consistant at low to mid volumes.

For louder levels the tube rules but again the dollar kicks in.

A buddy has this little Ibanez Valve Bee 6 inch combo 6 watt amp that looks like it is a box for a softball..has one tube in it..that thing is amazing and it has speaker out which we hooked to my 4-12...:banana: Nuts but over $200.

Heard a band on stage the other day and those guys were great, amazing tone. Checked out the guitar rigs after and all the guys had were GT-8's I think..( almost 3 feet long, chrome with lots of buttons and lights) going direct to PA..not an amp to be seen.

Both can sound good or bad, just depends on your homework and wallet..I like em both..
Bev


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Regardless of dollars, I'll wager VERY few of those who are adamantly opposd to SS or modelling would be able to tell the difference in a double blind test. I have seen evidence of this on a number of occasions.

It's all in the hands and in jnowing who to dial em in boys.

I've gone back and forth between tube, SS and modellers and I get my sound out of all of the above. Money has nothing to do with it once you get to a reasonable baseline of quality in my opinion.


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## User_X (Feb 1, 2008)

Milkman said:


> It's all in the hands and in jnowing who to dial em in boys.
> 
> I've gone back and forth between tube, SS and modellers and I get my sound out of all of the above. Money has nothing to do with it once you get to a reasonable baseline of quality in my opinion.


You are not alone.
Sometimes it is hard to believe whether people are so biased and unexposed, or have such amazingly unique needs and ears that only one type of amp can work for them.
Good tone remains to be found wherever you find it.:wave:


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Regardless of dollars, I'll wager VERY few of those who are adamantly opposd to SS or modelling would be able to tell the difference in a double blind test. I have seen evidence of this on a number of occasions.
> 
> It's all in the hands and in jnowing who to dial em in boys.
> 
> I've gone back and forth between tube, SS and modellers and I get my sound out of all of the above. Money has nothing to do with it once you get to a reasonable baseline of quality in my opinion.


Depends on what you use. I used to have an original Line 6 Spider, and the modelling on it was crap. They've come a long way since then, and the newer PODs are great. So is the Vox Tonelab. However, I would be hesitant to use a POD or Vox at a gig, or even jamming. It's partly the sound, but for me, the tactile sense of stomping individual effect pedals can't be beat!

Also, my other caveat with digital modellers is that I can't stand them when they're onboard some crappy SS amp. I have no problem using something like a POD or a Tonelab direct into my PC to record, or using it through my main tube amp, or even through a decent SS amp, but I can't stand the 15w SS amps with an 8" driver and built-in effects. I think the reason some people don't like the modellers is because their only experience with them are these entry-level amps. Of course, an entry-level tube amp also can sound pretty uninspiring.

On an aside, I find myself recording a lot lately using VST plugins as modellers. Some of these are absolutely incredible too. Guitar Rig, AxeFX and others can be really powerful tools. I don't own a JCM800 stack, but I can sure sound like I do!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I try to dial in my tone for a band/jam context.. still gotta work on it a little bit.

anyone here used Fractal Axe FX?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

hollowbody said:


> Depends on what you use. I used to have an original Line 6 Spider, and the modelling on it was crap. They've come a long way since then, and the newer PODs are great. So is the Vox Tonelab. However, I would be hesitant to use a POD or Vox at a gig, or even jamming. It's partly the sound, but for me, the tactile sense of stomping individual effect pedals can't be beat!
> 
> Also, my other caveat with digital modellers is that I can't stand them when they're onboard some crappy SS amp. I have no problem using something like a POD or a Tonelab direct into my PC to record, or using it through my main tube amp, or even through a decent SS amp, but I can't stand the 15w SS amps with an 8" driver and built-in effects. I think the reason some people don't like the modellers is because their only experience with them are these entry-level amps. Of course, an entry-level tube amp also can sound pretty uninspiring.
> 
> On an aside, I find myself recording a lot lately using VST plugins as modellers. Some of these are absolutely incredible too. Guitar Rig, AxeFX and others can be really powerful tools. I don't own a JCM800 stack, but I can sure sound like I do!


I have used Tonelabs both for live and studio use for several years now. No amp at all, just direct to the snake via a couple of DIs. I'm quite convinced that they are an effective and practical alternative to an amp. Ask most sound men how THEY feel about them when used like this.


The sound as I have said is so close as to be indistinguishable from tube amps. As for the tactile sense of individual stomp boxes, the Tonelabs and the newer Pods have modes that allow you to turn individual "pedals" on and off just like the old stomp boxes.

I think the mistake many people make when assessing modellers is to use them WITH conventional amps as opposed to INSTEAD of them.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with good quality tube amps, but modellers have pretty much caught up in my opinion and stand poised to easily eclipse them within a couple of years.

We need to open our minds and ears more. Guitarists don't tend to embrace technology in this context for some reason.

Of course, all of the above are only my opinions.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Milkman said:


> I think the mistake many people make when assessing modellers is to use them WITH conventional amps as opposed to INSTEAD of them.


But then what about all the guys who've been collecting head and cabs over the years, trying to get the ultimate Pete Townsend rig?

Sure, it's a joke, but I think a bit of it does have to do with the rock & roll image. Where would us guitarists be without an amp behind us? What are we going to set our beers on? I think there is a long and storied history of rock gear that is hard to get beyond. Having said that, I have noticed lately that stacks are pretty much old hat. I see the occasional half-stack, but most band I see playing live have gone the route of the combo. A lot of Deluxe Reverbs, or Hot Rods, the occasional Dr. Z, but yeah, it's mostly combos out there. I guess PA system at most venues are decent enough to not need a wall of 4x12s anymore.

I guess even though people are downsizing their touring rigs, there's still a gear-oriented attitude among most musicians. People fall in love with their amps, pedals, what have you. It would be 100% easier to lug a Tonelab and a snake to a gig, but MAN, I would miss my Traynor.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

more combos?

i think it really depends on what type of music you're going to see.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

hollowbody said:


> But then what about all the guys who've been collecting head and cabs over the years, trying to get the ultimate Pete Townsend rig?
> 
> Sure, it's a joke, but I think a bit of it does have to do with the rock & roll image. Where would us guitarists be without an amp behind us? What are we going to set our beers on? I think there is a long and storied history of rock gear that is hard to get beyond. Having said that, I have noticed lately that stacks are pretty much old hat. I see the occasional half-stack, but most band I see playing live have gone the route of the combo. A lot of Deluxe Reverbs, or Hot Rods, the occasional Dr. Z, but yeah, it's mostly combos out there. I guess PA system at most venues are decent enough to not need a wall of 4x12s anymore.
> 
> I guess even though people are downsizing their touring rigs, there's still a gear-oriented attitude among most musicians. People fall in love with their amps, pedals, what have you. It would be 100% easier to lug a Tonelab and a snake to a gig, but MAN, I would miss my Traynor.




Coincidentally, I prefer a clean stage, amps BEHIND the backdrop. We used to do it in the 80s. All you could see from the audience was drums, instruments and performers. It's a very theatrical and dramatic look. This was my inclination long before modellers were developed.

I guess it's a matter of the image you want to present. Rock and roll to some folks is booze, drugs and walls of Marshall stacks. To me, it has always been about the music and the performers.


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## Perkinsfan (Oct 17, 2007)

I prefer the "feel" I get from tube amps.
I also love the tone of my tube amp.
I like the tone at "at home" volume levels of my solid state.
So I guess what type of amp I prefer depends on the application.
Eric


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> I hear people say things like this all the time, but it misses a big part of the equasion. For me, a huge part of a great amp (or guitar or pedal) being a great amp (or guitar or pedal) is how it reacts to your playing. Have you ever played a really great guitar and amp and had the sensation that the combination was practically playing itself? That the notes were exploding out of the speaker a millisecond before you even played them? I love that feeling. It's inspiring. Unfortunately, I've never had any kind of modeller give me that. And I've tried plenty. There may be a technical reason involving the latency of the A/D, D/A and processing, or it may be something else. But, to me, no modeller has ever felt as good to play as a good tube amp. That's nothing that any 3rd party in a double-blind test is going to be able to tell. But to me it makes all the difference in the world.
> 
> Any time I say something like that, I get accused of being a dinosaur or a luddite or "opposed to technology". I can assure you that's not it. I co-own a commercial recording studio, and we embrace plenty of modern digital technology in that studio. I also have owned several amp modellers, and, in fact, have an Axe-FX on the way to me right now. Modellers have their uses; I've just never found them to be particularly inspiring or fun to play.



I have had people plug into my Tonelab via wireless, not knowing they were playing through the lab and none guessed it was a modeller.


Notes "blooming" and things like sag and compression are not mystical magical elements. They are easily duplicated.

People WANT to believe there's more to it and that's ok I suppose.

This isn't magic. It's science. I prefer new science.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> Thanks for the tip, but I actually wasn't attributing it to magic. You might have missed the part where I theorized that it might have something to do with the latency inherent in a digital system. Show me a digitial modelling system that can duplicate zero latency, though, and I _will_ believe in magic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LMAO

As predictable a reponse as I could imagine from you.

I'm so glad my ears are so poor that I don't have to rise to your level of tonery.

You get used to this sort of thing when you choose to point out that the emporer is indeed naked.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> OK, captain science, here are two serious question for you...
> 
> 1. Do you think it possible that the latency inherent in a digital system could have an effect on the "feel" of that system to the player?
> 
> ...


Hmmm, name calling now?


In the interests of trying to do the right thing, I'm going to walk away from this now. Congratulations. You've joined a rather exclusive list.


Have a nice day.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

if I may interrupt the pissing contest.

I dont understand how listening to solid state anything would make a person sick. If it did then home stereos, car stereos, televisions etc should also nauseate the original poster.

I think it is all in the head.....


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## Wheeman (Dec 4, 2007)

Archer said:


> if I may interrupt the pissing contest.
> 
> I don*'*t understand how listening to solid state anything would make a person sick. If it did then home stereos, car stereos, televisions etc should also nauseate the original poster.
> 
> I think it is all in the head.....


Televisions, the tube kind, give off a migraine inducing hum for me if I'm too close to it. But then again, I might fall into the category of hyper-sensitivity. 

I've said it before on this forum, but I'll say it again. My cats like to sleep in my room where I play guitar. Whenever I use my solid state amp (its a cheap practice amp mind you), they bolt right out of the room. On the other hand, with the tubes they tolerate it much better at the same or louder volume. 

Also, I find effects pedals, namely fuzzes, are very different sounding between a solid state and a tube amp.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

This just goes to show that we all have different ideas of what makes a good sound--and I think that's a good thing so that we don't all sound the same.

I'm more intrigued by a band or a musician that has their own sound than anybody who just sounds like a carbon copy of somebody else's sound. That doesn't mean I think all tubes sound alike or all solid state amps sound a like--but it does allow for more variety.

While I mostly use solid state, I do own a tube amp (Garnet Stencil amp).
I also have a DOD Classic Tube pedal--which, while it is not the same as a good classic tube amp--with good tubes--it does help when I want to use that warm tube overdrive sound, although I've found it can a bit noisy at some settings.

And we've strayed offtrack to a degree--the original point was to ask if playing through solid state amps makes you sick. Some of said it does, some of said it doesn't, (Including myself.) That alone shows we have significant differences, that can affect our playing.


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## Big White Tele (Feb 10, 2007)

*Captain science.. I love it*


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## Evilmusician (Apr 13, 2007)

Personally I find tube amps sound warmer more dynamic ,but I have played a few Solid State amps I've liked ,it's the player and what they play ..I just don't guitarists with that angry bee on steroids with a chainsaw sound! :rockon:


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

I've listened to a few really good SS amps and heard a few really terrible tube ones. At least the tube amps can be made healthy with relatively simple tweaks :wink:

My fellow HiFi nuts can blindly pick out a SS or tube amp, guitar amp or not. Once attuned, there is an ability to tell tham apart a good 9/10 times.

Tubes are my preference. For listening, designing, building, playing and repairing.

But if I see a guitarist hugging his transistorized "sand amp", more power to the poor creature 

Cheers!


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Archer said:


> if I may interrupt the pissing contest.
> 
> I dont understand how listening to solid state anything would make a person sick. If it did then home stereos, car stereos, televisions etc should also nauseate the original poster.
> 
> I think it is all in the head.....


Maybe, maybe not!

Your premise is not quite appropriate. It's not likely to matter about the type of amp so much when the amp is clean, like with "home stereos, car stereos, televisions etc".

The technical term for a clean amp is "linear". If you plotted the graph of the input wave and the output wave (you could see it on a scope and you'd likely use a simple sine wave to make the job easier) the relationship between the two waves would be linear, or "one to one", except for the greater amplitude at the output.

An engineer would consider it easier to make a solid state amp linear, particularly when SS amps typically use massive amounts of negative feedback to reduce distortion products.

If something IS making you feel sick it's likely to be those distortion products! After all, except for jazz cats who plays a guitar amp totally hifi? Tubes and transistors drive into distortion very, very differently! Tubes tend to ramp a longer way as they go into distortion. They also "round off" sharp peaks, giving a further compression feel.

Transistors stay clean until they break up, when we get lots of harsh, spiky distortion products on the output signal. These products may actually go into the ultrasonic region or stay in the audible range but not be consciously noticed, as they are very quick to happen.

Some people may be bothered more than others. My high school chemistry teacher got a headache if he watched one of those old 16mm films they used to give us. His eyes were fast enough that he didn't see a smooth image on the screen. To him it was very jerky.

There's more happening here than you might think.

:food-smiley-004:


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Are guitarists the Jahova Witlesses of the music world? It seems there are always a group of guitarists who want to push their beliefs on other guitarists.............


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Are guitarists the Jahova Witlesses of the music world? It seems there are always a group of guitarists who want to push their beliefs on other guitarists.............



No kidding.

I still think it is all in a person THINKING they are hearing diffs tha tmake them sick....not getting sick because of the nature of solid state.

Until I an see something out of a journal etc I'm calling the notion of solid state gear making a person ill problematic at best and psychological at most likely.


For what it is worth.....as far as gutar gear goes I am a tube guy through and through.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I don't know about the desire to "convert" others, but I'd say guitarists ARE as old school and opposed to change as some very religious groups.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

GuitaristZ said:


> makes me feel sick. I dont know why, and I am not joking. For some reason, if I play a solid state guitar amp it makes me feel sick after a while...I get like a weird feeling...mainly in my head....almost like a dull headache. This condition is even worse when listening to any digital pedals....doesnt matter how expensive...line 6, boss gt8, etc...
> 
> 
> I can play any all tube amp for hours and not get this problem at all...even at loud volumes. Is there an explanation for this?
> ...


I love my tube amps but I couldn't make a credible argument against solid state amps. My experiences wouldn't be fair. Whenever I've bought a tube amp I spent quite a bit of money and have purchased top quality. Whenever I've bought solid state I was usually just looking for something to get me through cheaply. I've never spent big dollars on a top quality solid state amp. I've owned some that I thought weren't bad. I imagine that if I went out and got a good quality solid state amp I'd be pleasantly surprised. I just don't have an interest as I'm quite satisfied with my tube amps.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Archer said:


> No kidding.
> 
> I still think it is all in a person THINKING they are hearing diffs tha tmake them sick....not getting sick because of the nature of solid state.
> 
> ...


I'm sure he is being sarcastic. I don't think it would be medically possible for a solid state amp as opposed to a tube amp to actually make someone physically sick.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I am now running a Vox ToneLabe LE through a Roland Blues Cube BC30. I like the sound. I am not saying it sounds tube, but then again, the only tube amp I have is Gibson GA-5 RI. So can't really comment on tube sound, other than what I hear on MP3 or CD. And I can't go around buying and selling and trading tube amps because financially and logistically it is just too difficult. But like I said, I like the sound of this combination.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

I don't know -- I could easily listen to BB King all day every day for a very long time, and he's an L5 man all the way.


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## LowWatt (Jun 27, 2007)

I don't get headaches from solid state, but I do get headaches if I listen to a digital modelling amp through headphones for too long.

This is the only type of amp that does it to me, but there is a clear and documented scientfic reason for why that affects some people. Digital breaks your signal down into slices. It is not a consistent sustaining tone. It's your mind that fills in the blanks and helps you hear it as a sustaining tone. 

To most people, it makes no difference. To many others, your mind is getting overworked by having to steadily fill in the blanks and it leads to listeners fatigue. This is also why it's usually not a problem through outboard speakers for me. Natural reverberation fills in the blanks. It's only an issue if I go over an hour with headphones on. 

At first I thought it might be a straight volume in my ears issue, but after trying the same setup listening to vinyl, I could go for hours without the slightest headache.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

I have one of each - two little 25 W combos running in stereo, although I sometimes put a fake plexi-in-a-can thing on the ss. Works for me (although I'd like to replace the SS with an 18W Marshall clone...just don't have the $$ necessary).
I always played bass through SS amps though - haven't heard anything that beats a good Trace Elliot.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

devnulljp said:


> I have one of each - two little 25 W combos running in stereo, although I sometimes put a fake plexi-in-a-can thing on the ss. Works for me (although I'd like to replace the SS with an 18W Marshall clone...just don't have the $$ necessary).
> I always played bass through SS amps though - haven't heard anything that beats a good Trace Elliot.


Bassists seem more inclined to use what sounds best as opposed to what they have READ that they're heroes use.

I've mixed a good variety of both SS and tube ams for bass and frankly, I preer the sound of going direct, BEFORE the amp, but I agree, Trace Elliot amps have a nice clean chunky sound.

Nothing worse in my opinion than a bassist who likes to overdrive his amp or who uses pedals.


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## Wheeman (Dec 4, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Bassists seem more inclined to use what sounds best as opposed to what they have READ that they're heroes use.
> 
> I've mixed a good variety of both SS and tube ams for bass and frankly, I preer the sound of going direct, BEFORE the amp, but I agree, Trace Elliot amps have a nice clean chunky sound.
> 
> Nothing worse in my opinion than a bassist who likes to overdrive his amp or who uses pedals.


A bass EQ pedal, courtesy of Mooh, saved my ass at a jazz ensemble competition once. It was a Musicfest competition sponsored by one of the local music shops no less. Usually these things have a decent amp to plug into but this time it was a Roland Bass Cube 40. Scratchy volume pot, couldn't go pass 4 on the volume and the very rudimentary EQ was useless. 

Just being able to shape the sound helped out immensely. I brought the school's amp to the next competition knowing better.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Wheeman said:


> A bass EQ pedal, courtesy of Mooh, saved my ass at a jazz ensemble competition once. It was a Musicfest competition sponsored by one of the local music shops no less. Usually these things have a decent amp to plug into but this time it was a Roland Bass Cube 40. Scratchy volume pot, couldn't go pass 4 on the volume and the very rudimentary EQ was useless.
> 
> Just being able to shape the sound helped out immensely. I brought the school's amp to the next competition knowing better.


An EQ is not really what I was referring to and there's nothing wrong with using one IMO. It's things like fuzz/distortion and Bass Balls, auto wahs, et cetera that I really dislike.

I think they might sound interesting on their own, but in the context of a band I can't remember hearing effects on bass that I really found musical.


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## Wheeman (Dec 4, 2007)

Milkman said:


> An EQ is not really what I was referring to and there's nothing wrong with using one IMO. It's things like fuzz/distortion and Bass Balls, auto wahs, et cetera that I really dislike.
> 
> I think they might sound interesting on their own, but in the context of a band I can't remember hearing effects on bass that I really found musical.


Ah, I see, misunderstood, pedal shape != pedal necessarily.
As a bass player, I want clean with some thump so I stay away from the toys.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

hollowbody said:


> But then what about all the guys who've been collecting head and cabs over the years, trying to get the ultimate Pete Townsend rig?
> 
> Sure, it's a joke, but I think a bit of it does have to do with the rock & roll image. Where would us guitarists be without an amp behind us? What are we going to set our beers on? I think there is a long and storied history of rock gear that is hard to get beyond.* Having said that, I have noticed lately that stacks are pretty much old hat. I see the occasional half-stack, but most band I see playing live have gone the route of the combo. A lot of Deluxe Reverbs, or Hot Rods, the occasional Dr. Z, but yeah, it's mostly combos out there. I guess PA system at most venues are decent enough to not need a wall of 4x12s anymore.*
> 
> I guess even though people are downsizing their touring rigs, there's still a gear-oriented attitude among most musicians. People fall in love with their amps, pedals, what have you. It would be 100% easier to lug a Tonelab and a snake to a gig, but MAN, I would miss my Traynor.


Funny I noticed the same thing. I realized it about a year ago when my company had a corporate event at the Hard Rock Cafe in Toronto, and hired a cover band supposedly comprised of some of the guys from Moist. When I went up to jam with the band, I was surprised to see the lead guitarist playing on a Fender combo (dont recall which one) with a GT-6 for effects. 

As cool as stacks and half stacks are, I always thought combo's were under-rated in terms of the value and convenience many of them offer eg.
the Peavey 5150's and the Mesa F-50's.

As for the original topic, I agree with other posters that say it depends on the style of music beeing played through the amps. I luv a distorted tube amp for metal - SS amps sound scratchy and shrill and not very "full" to me. but in terms of cleans with a bit of delay, reverb and chorus, I'm not sure I could tell tube from SS.

On a sidenote, we have an old tube driven console stereo from the 50's (the big shiny wood kind that stores martini glasses and stuff in it, lol) in the living room which even just listening to FM radio sounds MUCH sweeter than the $500 Bose Wave that my aunt bought me for Xmas, bless her heart


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

violation said:


> Go find a Randall RG100ES or a similar model from the 80's... like the Mesa of solid state amps, lol even sounds better than _some_ high gain tube amps IMO.
> 
> Still prefer the 6505 (or 5150, as far as I know they're the same though) or JSX (aka next purchase) though! :tongue:


I had that exact amp :rockon:...sold it a year or 2 ago.
It definitely wouldnt give anyone headaches, but to me, the sound was...meh. So I got a 6505+, like you mention.:food-smiley-004:

Here's a pic of my old Randall. The cab was actually phenomenal. I wish I kept it. Solid and tight. I sometimes wonder if the cab made the head sound better than it was.


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## fishin' musician (Jun 19, 2008)

Wild Bill said:


> If something IS making you feel sick it's likely to be those distortion products! After all, except for jazz cats who plays a guitar amp totally hifi? Tubes and transistors drive into distortion very, very differently! Tubes tend to ramp a longer way as they go into distortion. They also "round off" sharp peaks, giving a further compression feel.
> 
> Transistors stay clean until they break up, when we get lots of harsh, spiky distortion products on the output signal. These products may actually go into the ultrasonic region or stay in the audible range but not be consciously noticed, as they are very quick to happen.
> 
> ...


Here's some food for thought:

www.sweetwater.com/expert-center/glossary/t--EarFatigue - 37k

...and in one famous case Mary Hart's (Entertainment Tonight) voice was known to cause a Simple Partial Seizure..."Some people find their SPS quite hard to ‘put into words’. During the seizure they may feel ‘strange’ but not able to describe the feeling. This can make the seizures quite upsetting."...

http://www.epilepsynse.org.uk/PAGES/info/leaflets/seizures.cfm#partial

http://www.epilepsynse.org.uk/PAGES/info/leaflets/seizures.cfm#triggers

...maybe there is some sort of weird overtone or inaudible frequency from your solid state gear that is causing your distress. Your symptoms sound an awful lot like seasickness, which is also a wave frequency related issue. The way I see it,switching to tube driven gear would be a win/win situation.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Diablo said:


> The cab was actually phenomenal. I wish I kept it. Solid and tight. I sometimes wonder if the cab made the head sound better than it was.


how is that possible? if the cab makes the amp sound great, then that's the the max potential of the head. which is why some people experiment with cabs until they match up the head to the right set of speakers.

and then its off to the races


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

GuitaristZ said:


> dimebag = high gain crap


I am a tube player, but no offense, after reading this you should shut your mouth.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Paul said:


> 2. GuitarZ's last activity on this site was back in January, so it might be safe to say that he's shut his mouth already. Here is his last post.


Beat me to it. :bow:


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Paul said:


> 1. I'm no fine of Dimebag either...that style of metal music does nothing for me, and that level of gain annoys the crap outta me.


There is a difference between what you said, and what he said. Even though you may not like metal or great high gain, he called it crap, and rule number 1 of guitar, is to never call legends or what they did crap.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Paul said:


> I've always thought rule #1 was learn to tune.....
> 
> I will say say that a lot of what is succesful in music is simplistic crap, and a lot of what is unsuccesful in music is overly complicated crap. There is a lot less genius than is marketed as such. To my ears Dimebag is good, but nowhere near an all time great.


So who do you think is classified as an all time great?


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Paul said:


> Lenny Breau. He's like Bobby Orr, Wayne Gretzky and Maurice Richard all in one.


While he may be good (i studied jazz for 4 years), you are basically discrediting an all time great (Dimebag) just because he doesn't fit your particular musical style, and that isn't fair. 
Lenny may be talented technically, but is not on the same level as Dimebag on what influence he had on the world, and that is what defines an all time great.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

No two people are ever going to agree on who is or isn't an all time great, or on a definition of what makes an all time great. (Or at the very least how to interpret that.)

Should it be more important to have an influence on the "world" (Whatever that means) or on guitarists/musicians?

If it's the second Lenny Breau had a huge influence. 

Neither has had a direct influence on me.
But that doesn't disqualify either on that basis alone.

If I had to assemble a list of all time greats I would include guitarists such as Chet Atkins--who does nothing for me musically. But he does deserve to be on such a list.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

TDeneka said:


> While he may be good (i studied jazz for 4 years), you are basically discrediting an all time great (Dimebag) just because he doesn't fit your particular musical style, and that isn't fair.
> Lenny may be talented technically, but is not on the same level as Dimebag on what influence he had on the world, and that is what defines an all time great.


I'm stunned

Surely you wouldn't compare the two either from a skill/talent perspective OR based on the influence they had.

Watch "the Genius of Lenny Breau" and then tell me again how Dime compares in terms of his influence.

I honestly don't mind Dime. It's not my kind of music but I think he was good.

Lenny was SO far beyond Dime that it's not even a reasonable comparison. I'm afraid in this case it goes well beyond tastes.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I'm stunned
> 
> Surely you wouldn't compare the two either from a skill/talent perspective OR based on the influence they had.
> 
> ...


WOW...

Milkman expresses my exact thoughts on this as well.

To me there is NO comparison...beyond the fact that they both played guitar.

Dave

Dave


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I think Dimebag had a cult following and his impact would have been a mixture of his music and image. As a guitar player he isn't what I'd call particularly innovative or deserving of "guitar god status". The way he died probably had some influence on his noteriety.
I guess its always hard to swallow when most don't share the enthusiasm for a guitarist like you do. But hey if he has done something that has sparked influence and encouragment in you then thats all that matters.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

another fact that most of you guys missed is comparing lenny breu to dimebag is apples to oranges.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Paul said:


> Nope, didn't miss that at all. I was asked who I considered an all time great, after I dismissed Dimebag as an all time great. On guitar, the pinacle in the 20th century is Lenny Breau. We are comparing the impact that two guitarists had on the artistic, creative and technical growth of the instrument. Lenny trumps all comers, (including Dimebag), so far.


Umm no he doesn't. Doesn't matter this is the internet and i care not for this debate any more.


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## suffersystem (Nov 16, 2008)

Tubes all the way.



When I first started playing it was nothing but SS, but after getting my tube amp a few months ago I was emmediately hooked.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Paul said:


> Guys like Kerry King and Shawn Lane, to my ears, are on the same level as Dimebag, technically, musically, creatively. Different from each other and uniquely identifiable, but relatively equal.


Kerry King is many levels below Dime in all areas, Kerry is a slop farmer that just rips out haphazard speed riffs and rolls into chromatics to stay 'in key' if you will. Truly terrible player that got to where he is purely on image.

Shawn Lane is so far ahead of Dime that I can't measure it...Lane was actually ble to play through changes (imagine that?? a rock player that can play over changes) and has a theoretical base that is only matched by what may well have been the best overall set of chops on the planet. The man was a true monster.

Dime was a great metal guitarist, and that is it. Being killed has made his legend a lock, just like Randy Rhoads. Like Rhoads Dime is forever going to be overrated....not to be crass but being killed young will make for a legacy that can never really be challenged.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

Although tube amps will always be my 1st choice I did own a Fender Ultra or Ultimate Chorus for a time back in the mid 90's . Honestly , I liked the sound and it was great for acoustic too :smile:


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