# St. Catharines L&M funny business



## 3mar67 (Jan 19, 2011)

Just thought I'd share my experience at L&M St. Catharines this past week, which prompted me to send this email to Steve Long, the president.

Hello, I walked into L&M St. Catharines a few days ago to try out some acoustic guitars.
I asked a salesperson about a Taylor 214ce-cf DLX sb.
He told me there was a used one available for $1495.
He pointed out the swirl marks on the top, and commented that it otherwise looked pretty new.
I told him I’d try out a few guitars and then take a couple of days to decide.
A couple of days later – lo and behold – the used Taylor had now magically become a NEW guitar at full price.
I asked the salesperson in the acoustic room, how this could be possible.
He replied that the used guitar was sold – that this was a brand new one.
B.S.
I consider this not only deceitful, but a fraudulent business practice.
Absolutely disgusting behavior.
I thought, perhaps I was mistaken – until I looked at the photos I took earlier in the week, including the soundhole, which contains the serial number – same serial number as the NEW guitar.
Plus, I could easily see it was the same guitar, same swirl marks, etc.
And furthermore, common sense tells me that you wouldn’t be so quickly restocking a guitar that has been discontinued for a couple of years.
It doesn’t make sense, and it’s dishonest.
I just moved to the Niagara area, and thought this would be my go-to music shop – as I like upgrading my gear on a regular basis.
I doubt I will ever again set foot in a Long & McQuade store.
And I will share my experience with my fellow musicians, both in person and online.
Just thought I’d bring my concerns to your attention.
Regards

To his credit, Steve Long sent me a quick reply, saying he will look into my concerns.
Curious to see what excuses they will come up with.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Jeez, that’s shady business right there.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)




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## sillyak (Oct 22, 2016)

Hmmmmmm

Now that you say that I saw this guitar at L&M south Edmonton 4 months ago:











Looked brand new, but tagged used. A few weeks later I saw it was gone, but they had a new one in the new Fender section for $1299 IIRC. I thought it was an odd coincidence. Not saying that's what happened, should see if it's still there and check the serial #.


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## geetaruke (Jan 29, 2017)

I took back a mint SG which I had purchased just before the huge covid related shutdowns. I knew I was going to take the “restocking” hit for waiting until things cleared up a bit to return it, no issue there, it was my choice, but I’m pretty sure they just put back up as new, based on what the website had in stock and out of stock prior to my return.

They made a killing on that one.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

geetaruke said:


> I took back a mint SG which I had purchased just before the huge covid related shutdowns. I knew I was going to take the “restocking” hit for waiting until things cleared up a bit to return it, no issue there, it was my choice, but I’m pretty sure they just put back up as new, based on what the website had in stock and out of stock prior to my return.
> 
> They made a killing on that one.


That’s a tough one. It’s not like a car that accumulates mileage. Wear on a guitar is pretty evident. If you bought it, hardly touched it and returned it within a reasonable period, it would seem like it was new. Not much different from the guitar being handled every day by browsers.

Wonder if there’s a consumer law around this.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Buyer beware.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

I bought a new Les Paul Classic earlier this year that was missing it's "birthday picture". Exchanged it a few days later, and they sold it as used. I don't think this is a company wide policy.


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## madhermit (Dec 31, 2017)

Of course it is not a policy. If it happens, it’s a shady choice at the store level. I know a few area managers and they would never condone this.
Also, if it got to the checkout, their computer system would pop up that it was used and show the price once the serial number was input.
Maybe the tag got ruined and the employee that repriced it didn’t know it was used?


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## 3mar67 (Jan 19, 2011)

madhermit said:


> edit --
> Maybe the tag got ruined and the employee that repriced it didn’t know it was used?


 Except, I was told -- "Oh, that guitar was sold, this is a different one."


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

I am one of their "special" customers. The minute I leave the store with anything new I get hit with a 15% restock fee the very next day. They do this to a lot of customers that have a higher then "normal" return rate. I have talked in depth with Steve Long via email over the past two years to no avail.
What really gets me is their advertising displays or shows nothing that " some limitaitions may apply" to their 30 day exchange policy. I feel it is misleading advertising at its best. I feel they owe it to their customer base to be CLEAR and TRANSPARENT as what they are doing I feel is technically illegal. I am sure legal advice would confirm my opinion.There are many of us that are considered "special" by L&M. 

They charge the 15% restock fee and then back out with new pricing. Unfortunately I rarely shop new at L&M anymore. I bought my first guitar from them back in 1987, a long time loyal customer.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

dgreen said:


> I am one of their "special" customers. The minute I leave the store with anything new I get hit with a 15% restock fee the very next day. They do this to a lot of customers that have a higher then "normal" return rate. I have talked in depth with Steve Long via email over the past two years to no avail.
> What really gets me is their advertising displays or shows nothing that " some limitaitions may apply" to their 30 day exchange policy. I feel it is misleading advertising at its best. I feel they owe it to their customer base to be CLEAR and TRANSPARENT as what they are doing I feel is technically illegal. I am sure legal advice would confirm my opinion.There are many of us that are considered "special" by L&M.
> 
> They charge the 15% restock fee and then back out with new pricing. Unfortunately I rarely shop new at L&M anymore. I bought my first guitar from them back in 1987, a long time loyal customer.


I once bought an expensive guitar on a credit card (Hamilton store) and I returned it within the 30 days (actually 37 but they let me get away with it). I was hit with the restocking fee and was told that if I'd paid cash that no restocking fee would be charged. I'm not sure what the difference is why one way gets a restocking fee. Maybe it just shows a lot of inconsistency from store to store with policies.
The guitar in question was a Gibson custom shop R7. It was actually an NOS 2013 that supposedly had never been sold. It had some wear on it that they described as "shop worn". It was listed for $3,700 and I was able to haggle it down to $3,200, which I thought was pretty good for an R7. I imagine they'd have resold it under the same conditions. 
I guess if I bought a brand new guitar in brand new condition for the brand new price and not realizing someone else had it for 30 days I wouldn't really care. As someone else said its not like a car with mileage. However if it got a little marked up I'd want it to be discounted accordingly. I wouldn't expect a ridiculous used price on it like some unreasonable customers.
Sometimes I don't feel that discounted pricing for seconds or new items with a couple bumps and bruises is fair at L&M. But then I just don't buy it. However over the years I've gotten some great deals at Long and Mcquade. 
The best deal I can remember is a Martin HD-28V at the Burlington store that had mistakenly priced the price of an HD-28. Whoever put it on the floor thought it was an HD-28. As soon as I picked it up I knew it wasn't an HD-28 as I had owned one before. This had a darker top and a beautiful chunky V neck. I was playing it for a bit when the salesman came up to me to tell me he'd discovered they made a mistake and it was actually an HD-28V which was a model I hadn't heard of before. But 15 minutes of playing it and I was in love. I casually said to the sales guy "Well if you can sell it to me at the mismarked price I'll take it". He checked with the manager and it was a done deal. I saved about $700 on that guitar. 
Long and Mcquade is a big box store. Maybe most of the time you can't get a break but you never know. I've been a customer of L&M for 35 years and although I don't shop there as often as I did in the 80's and 90's I'll still buy from there if they have what I need at the price I'm willing to pay.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

I've had similar experiences that left a bad taste in my mouth.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

They sell rentals at new prices if it hasnt been rented much. All we can really do is notify top mgmt and shop elsewhere.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

Good to see they are charging a restock fee to the buyers that constantly return product. Nothing wrong with the product they just changed their mind or wanted free rental.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Distortion said:


> Good to see they are charging a restock fee to the buyers that constantly return product. Nothing wrong with the product they just changed their mind or wanted free rental.


Yup. I’ve heard from more than a few people who take advantage of the “29 day free rental” from L&M.


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## Fred Gifford (Sep 2, 2019)

thanks for the heads up .. shady business indeed


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## GuitarT (Nov 23, 2010)

Ah yes, Loan & Persuade....


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Budda said:


> They sell rentals at new prices if it hasnt been rented much. All we can really do is notify top mgmt and shop elsewhere.



...or just don't buy the rental. If I boycotted every store brick or mortar where they had some product that I didn't agree on a price, I'd have no where to shop. This is why I'm loyal to no one. I buy where I feel I'll get the best deal. And no one store is probably going to be the best deal on every thing I want. Having said that I've had great service from Long and McQuade over the years. But I know what they are and I don't have unrealistic expectations. There are some that no matter what a store does they can't be pleased.
For me personally, I wouldn't buy anything from the rental department unless its been rented a lot and is still in good condition. The discount by the number of times its been rented out. In the past 5 years the only thing I bought from the rental department was an elite powered monitor that retailed for a thousand bucks and I got it for $600. It was pretty dirty but was in excellent shape other wise.
I don't know if some L&M stores are taking products that have been returned after a month and putting it back in stock as new but I wonder about the legality of that. I know Bestbuys return policy is the same but you see all kinds of open box sales that I assume are the returned items. There is no restocking fee at Best buy so I don't know how they recover their losses if they're selling returned items as open box at a discount. I would assume L&M charges a restock fee to cover this loss but I don't recall seeing open box guitar sales.
I remember a time years ago when none of the L&M stores had a restocking fee. You could just return it before 30 days. Once I purchased a 62 hotrod strat and after 4 months I went to see if I could return it (yeah I had balls) and what they did was charge me 4 months rental, which was about $29 a month. I did better than if I had sold it on the used market. I remember at that time I could take any guitar out of the store rent free for a week to see if I liked it. Only did that with one guitar, a custom shop nocaster. I don't know if I got that preferential treatment or if it was common practice. At the time I was spending a hell of a lot of money on a regular basis. But I know most of what I used to do they won't let you do no matter how much you spend. I think a lot of people took advantage.
The best case for service that I ever received from Long and McQuade was years ago I bought a Martin D-28. After 6 months it developed a finish problem where the finish was flaking off on the whole guitar. I had to have it sent back to Martin to be completely refinished. Long and McQuade took care of the shipping both ways and lent me a used Martin HD-35 off the floor to keep rent free as long as my guitar took. Which was a little over 6 months. I say hats off to manager Steve from the Cambridge store who did that for me. Great guy who's retired now.
To sum up you may not agree with all of Long and McQuades policies. Hell I don't necessarily like all of anyones policies. But I find no reason to completely boycott Long and McQuade. Even if I had a very bad experience at one store. I haven't had a real bad experience but I can't imagine L&M not doing everything to make it right.
These days 70% of my business is going to online, boutique and businesses in the US. So I'm not an L&M fanboy. Just someone with realistic expectations.
The one business that I'm afraid to do business with is Tundra. But I'm sure many have had good experiences with them.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> ...or just don't buy the rental. If I boycotted every store brick or mortar where they had some product that I didn't agree on a price, I'd have no where to shop. This is why I'm loyal to no one. I buy where I feel I'll get the best deal. And no one store is probably going to be the best deal on every thing I want. Having said that I've had great service from Long and McQuade over the years. But I know what they are and I don't have unrealistic expectations. There are some that no matter what a store does they can't be pleased.
> For me personally, I wouldn't buy anything from the rental department unless its been rented a lot and is still in good condition. The discount by the number of times its been rented out. In the past 5 years the only thing I bought from the rental department was an elite powered monitor that retailed for a thousand bucks and I got it for $600. It was pretty dirty but was in excellent shape other wise.
> I don't know if some L&M stores are taking products that have been returned after a month and putting it back in stock as new but I wonder about the legality of that. I know Bestbuys return policy is the same but you see all kinds of open box sales that I assume are the returned items. There is no restocking fee at Best buy so I don't know how they recover their losses if they're selling returned items as open box at a discount. I would assume L&M charges a restock fee to cover this loss but I don't recall seeing open box guitar sales.
> I remember a time years ago when none of the L&M stores had a restocking fee. You could just return it before 30 days. Once I purchased a 62 hotrod strat and after 4 months I went to see if I could return it (yeah I had balls) and what they did was charge me 4 months rental, which was about $29 a month. I did better than if I had sold it on the used market. I remember at that time I could take any guitar out of the store rent free for a week to see if I liked it. Only did that with one guitar, a custom shop nocaster. I don't know if I got that preferential treatment or if it was common practice. At the time I was spending a hell of a lot of money on a regular basis. But I know most of what I used to do they won't let you do no matter how much you spend. I think a lot of people took advantage.
> ...



Agree with what you've said, the singular exception being the last sentence regarding Tundra, which I believe to be unfounded.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

StevieMac said:


> Agree with what you've said, the singular exception being the last sentence regarding Tundra, which I believe to be unfounded.



To be fair I'm simply going mostly by reviews and word of mouth from others. I know you take that with a grain of salt but there are so many bad reviews its cause for concern.
I do have a couple of experiences with them but have never actually bought anything from them. Most of the complaints I hear are individuals who have ordered on line and come to find out that they never had it in stock and are waiting weeks to months and never get the order and have a difficult time getting their money back. I have no idea if this is an accurate depiction of their practices but it gives me enough concern that I'd only buy what I could cash and carry out of the store from them. Why take a chance?


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

I favour a family-owned store. Same prices as L&M.
.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

KapnKrunch said:


> I favour a family-owned store. Same prices as L&M.
> .



In my hometown I used to frequent a family owned store but had to stop because they just couldn't compete with the big box return policies and pricing. As well the inventory could never compete. You always had to order something. Well nowadays I can do that my self online. 
Now that same family owned store is a Long and McQuade.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> To be fair I'm simply going mostly by reviews and word of mouth from others. I know you take that with a grain of salt but there are so many bad reviews its cause for concern.
> I do have a couple of experiences with them but have never actually bought anything from them. Most of the complaints I hear are individuals who have ordered on line and come to find out that they never had it in stock and are waiting weeks to months and never get the order and have a difficult time getting their money back. I have no idea if this is an accurate depiction of their practices but it gives me enough concern that I'd only buy what I could cash and carry out of the store from them. Why take a chance?



To be clear, I was doubting the _mere_ _possibility_ that "many have had good experiences" with Tundra.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

StevieMac said:


> To be clear, I was doubting the _mere_ _possibility_ that "many have had good experiences" with Tundra.


lol thats funny. But to be honest there must be a certain amount of happy customers. They're still in business after all these years.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

I won't name name's but there are retailers who only offer store credit on a return. Once they got your money it is their's. There is that option for your shopping pleasure.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Distortion said:


> I won't name name's but there are retailers who only offer store credit on a return. Once they got your money it is their's. There is that option for your shopping pleasure.



Well as long as you know that going in and accept those terms you shouldn't be dissapointed when it comes to that.
One of the first questions I ask if I'm shopping with an unfamiliar vendor is "Whats your return policy?


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

butterknucket said:


> I've had similar experiences that left a bad taste in my mouth.


Like a used saxophone reed sold as new...


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

player99 said:


> Like a used saxophone reed sold as new...


A buyer should feel special to be able to buy a used reed from a player that might be better than them.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Distortion said:


> I won't name name's but there are retailers who only offer store credit on a return. Once they got your money it is their's. There is that option for your shopping pleasure.


You must mean L.A. Music.

Burlington L&M’s been great to me, they’ve let me take many guitars home overnight for a free evaluation, not a rental. A day or two is enough time for me to know & I guess they’d rather do that vs. sell & return.

My understanding was that once something’s rented out once it becomes a used guitar & a percentage of the rental revenue gets deducted from the price of the instrument. Got a great deal on an amp that had been rented almost every weekend for a few mos.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

Roryfan said:


> You must mean L.A. Music.


Actually I was thinking about a Hamilton store but a lot of stores have the store credit policy on returns.


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

KapnKrunch said:


> I favour a family-owned store. Same prices as L&M.
> .


One not owned by the Rockefeller’s?

OP, I heard that there’s a group down south going bust....... maybe start your own Empire.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Distortion said:


> I won't name name's but there are retailers who only offer store credit on a return. Once they got your money it is their's. There is that option for your shopping pleasure.





guitarman2 said:


> Well as long as you know that going in and accept those terms you shouldn't be dissapointed when it comes to that.
> One of the first questions I ask if I'm shopping with an unfamiliar vendor is "Whats your return policy?


Anyone else old enough to remember when stores didn’t just take shit back “because...”?

This phenomenon of being able to buy stuff, decide if it fits your lifestyle, and then bring it back for a full refund days/weeks/months later wasn’t always the case. Before, you decided what you wanted, bought it, and lived with your decision. If there was something _really_ wrong with it, the store would usually exchange it or offer you store credit. Somehow, the world didn’t end. Go figure.


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## geetaruke (Jan 29, 2017)

2manyGuitars said:


> Anyone else old enough to remember when stores didn’t just take shit back “because...”?
> 
> This phenomenon of being able to buy stuff, decide if it fits your lifestyle, and then bring it back for a full refund days/weeks/months later wasn’t always the case. Before, you decided what you wanted, bought it, and lived with your decision. If there was something _really_ wrong with it, the store would usually exchange it or offer you store credit. Somehow, the world didn’t end. Go figure.


Ya, I remember that. It’s not really relevant in a discussion about a store who has a completely different policy though.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

2manyGuitars said:


> Anyone else old enough to remember when stores didn’t just take shit back “because...”?
> 
> This phenomenon of being able to buy stuff, decide if it fits your lifestyle, and then bring it back for a full refund days/weeks/months later wasn’t always the case. Before, you decided what you wanted, bought it, and lived with your decision. If there was something _really_ wrong with it, the store would usually exchange it or offer you store credit. Somehow, the world didn’t end. Go figure.



I live in the now. If you want to live in the past feel free. If a music store can survive without offering a 30 day return policy then power to them. Business has changed from decades ago. Those who change with it survive. I remember decades ago when people bought a guitar they kept if for a very long time, if not for life. But then there was only one Telecaster model, one Strat model, Martin had one D-18 model, one D-28 model, etc. Now there's 20 different flavors of telecasters, Stratocasters, theres Martin reimagined, Martin Authentic, Martin vintage, etc.
We're being bombarded with so many choices we don't know what we want anymore. We're all gear whores who want to own every flavor of everything or at least try it out before we die.
Times have changed. Your just an old man shaking your fist in the air yelling at people to get off your lawn.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

I gotta agree with @2manyGuitars. "Make up your mind, kid." My (hypothetical) store would never survive in today's market.

Maybe we did have fewer options way, way back then. *Funny that those are the most desirable guitars today*. (Score: Angry Old Men: one; Young Punks: zero) 😜🤣❤


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

StevieMac said:


> Agree with what you've said, the singular exception being the last sentence regarding Tundra, which I believe to be unfounded.



LOL. Tundra is shady as shit and there have been numerous posts here on the topic full of anecdotes to prove it. With all due respect you're out of province and a big ticket buyer so they prob treat you better. They're the only place I have decided to never deal with again.... twice (gave them a second chance after they expanded to multiple locations and I realised one was close to me; mistake).


ETA:



StevieMac said:


> To be clear, I was doubting the _mere_ _possibility_ that "many have had good experiences" with Tundra.


OH! yeah that wasn't clear, sorry. LOL again, but this time in agreement.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

Granny Gremlin said:


> LOL. Tundra is shady as shit and there have been numerous posts here on the topic full of anecdotes to prove it. With all due respect you're out of province and a big ticket buyer so they prob treat you better. They're the only place I have decided to never deal with again.... twice (gave them a second chance after they expanded to multiple locations and I realised one was close to me; mistake).


With all due respect, paying closer attention to what's been said (before & after) can help one to avoid missing the point altogether: St. Catharines L&M funny business


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

StevieMac said:


> With all due respect, paying closer attention to what's been said (before & after) can help one to avoid missing the point altogether: St. Catharines L&M funny business



No need to get snippy; your follow up was a full page later, and I already corrected myself.... and learn to write better in the first place ;P


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

Granny Gremlin said:


> No need to get snippy; your follow up was a full page later, and I already corrected myself.... and learn to write better in the first place ;P


Neither am I "from out of province" so, again, probably wise to check your facts before posting.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Oh, wow, I brain farted about an unimportant detail. Coulda swore I saw yer location as somewhere in the maritimes way back on the old board when it used to be under our avatars. I'd question my memory on that but I totally remember how much of a grumpy ass dude you are. Anyway, you're well outside the GTA so same difference.

Like I don't get it, it wasn't even an insult. _Chill brah_.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Granny Gremlin said:


> No need to get snippy...


Oh, I disagree...
This is the internet muthafukkahs! This is _exactly_ the place to get snippy.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

2manyGuitars said:


> This is the internet muthafukkahs! This is _exactly_ the place to get snippy.


damn straight. Where else can you mouth off and not get a black eye


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

2manyGuitars said:


> Anyone else old enough to remember when stores didn’t just take shit back “because...”?
> 
> This phenomenon of being able to buy stuff, decide if it fits your lifestyle, and then bring it back for a full refund days/weeks/months later wasn’t always the case. Before, you decided what you wanted, bought it, and lived with your decision. If there was something _really_ wrong with it, the store would usually exchange it or offer you store credit. Somehow, the world didn’t end. Go figure.


I'm not even that old and remember it. Particularly in music stores. It's very odd to me that people think they should be able to buy a guitar, particularly some of the ones that cost thousands of dollars, and just return it for a full refund just because they decide it isn't for them. It occurs to me that this is another symptom of the Costco effect.


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## Tim Plains (Apr 14, 2009)

Roryfan said:


> Burlington L&M’s been great to me


Same. I don't go as often now but only deal with Tim P or Chris S, both guys are great.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

3mar67 said:


> Just thought I'd share my experience at L&M St. Catharines this past week, which prompted me to send this email to Steve Long, the president.
> 
> Hello, I walked into L&M St. Catharines a few days ago to try out some acoustic guitars.
> I asked a salesperson about a Taylor 214ce-cf DLX sb.
> ...


The L&M in question was previously owned by Walter Ostanek of polka fame. His son Rick is still the manager. I will buy at just about any store in the area but for exceptioal service I favour Central Music in Welland - that's typically my go-to for the bigger, more expensive stuff. You might also want to check out Mike's Music in Thorold. Mike's been a fixture in this area, often has some interesting stuff in a pretty small store and he also "builds" his own line of relic'ed guitars under the name Palermo.

There's also Murphy's Music in Niagara Falls and Thorold Music (on Glendale - they are the local Peavey and Godin dealer if that's your thing).

Lots of choices in the area.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Okay Player said:


> I'm not even that old and remember it. Particularly in music stores. *It's very odd to me that people think they should be able to buy a guitar, particularly some of the ones that cost thousands of dollars, and just return it for a full refund *just because they decide it isn't for them. It occurs to me that this is another symptom of the Costco effect.



Its not whether you should be expect it, its that at some establishments you can. If you don't want that type of service then you're free not to return a guitar. I've done it and where its offered I'll take advantage of it if the need arises.


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## sillyak (Oct 22, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> Its not whether you should be expect it, its that at some establishments you can. If you don't want that type of service then you're free not to return a guitar. I've done it and where its offered I'll take advantage of it if the need arises.



Consumers pay a huge cost for the liberal return policies of today. I'd rather pay less and waive the right to a non defective return. That isn't going to happen though.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

guitarman2 said:


> Its not whether you should be expect it, its that at some establishments you can. If you don't want that type of service then you're free not to return a guitar. I've done it and where its offered I'll take advantage of it if the need arises.


I don't disagree, everyone is free to do as the businesses they frequent permit, but there are definitely people who don't just take advantage of, but shop at places instead of. There was someone else earlier in the thread who said they frequent big box stores over family owned ones because of their return policies. I support people doing as they wish, but it occurs to me most people who taking advantage of such polices often don't realize that the race to the bottom is a bad thing for consumers.


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## bigboki (Apr 16, 2015)

Tim Plains said:


> Same. I don't go as often now but only deal with Tim P or Chris S, both guys are great.


There was Taylor solid body at Burlington store couple of years ago that I was looking at, and they were so nice to keep it for me to come and check it out, and then I still couldn't make up my mind, and asked if they can keep out over weekend for me and they did. Wonderful store (except of parking  )


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

sillyak said:


> Consumers pay a huge cost for the liberal return policies of today. I'd rather pay less and waive the right to a non defective return. That isn't going to happen though.



Well there are the smaller mom and pop stores that don't do the "return policy for any reason". I have been burned by stores like that when needing to return for defective reasons.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

I love how a thread about a store misrepresenting a used guitar as new has turned into a debate about return policies and independent vs big box.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> I *love* how a thread about a store misrepresenting a used guitar as new has turned into a debate about return policies and independent vs big box.


We're here to please.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

Distortion said:


> I won't name name's but there are retailers who only offer store credit on a return. Once they got your money it is their's. There is that option for your shopping pleasure.





guitarman2 said:


> Well as long as you know that going in and accept those terms you shouldn't be dissapointed when it comes to that.
> One of the first questions I ask if I'm shopping with an unfamiliar vendor is "Whats your return policy?


There is a local store in Kitchener that doesn't do refunds (Sherwood), so I didn't buy from there solely for that reason. But then I found that they are sometimes willing to give you a deal for items they have in stock. They also seem to give better offers on trade-ins. As a result, I've bought more than a few things there now. If I can accept not being able to return an item, I'll try to get it at Sherwood. If there might be a chance that I'll return it, or if I think it's likely to break and I want L&M's warranty, then I'll buy from L&M.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> I love how a thread about a store misrepresenting a used guitar as new has turned into a debate about return policies and independent vs big box.


Its been going on for years at many stores. Unless you see it come out of a sealed box from the manufacture chances are it has done the rounds. They started taking the plastic off guitars when they went on display for a reason over and above visual appearance. On a side note I was in the dreaded LA music ( if you listen to some ) when they moved in the medical building and had several floors selling product. A guy was trying out a DRRI amp that was on display. He was ready to buy and asked for a new one and low and behold he got a brand new one in the box. Not such bad guys after all.


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## GuitarT (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm sure this sort of thing has been going on for a long time. I bought a brand new (or so I thought) Fender Lead I in 1981 from a local shop. Before I bought it I noticed a lot of excessive pick scuffing on the pick guard. They told me it was the first one they got in and a lot of guys have been trying it out in the store. Being a naïve 18 year old I was good with that but found out later from another staff member that it had been rented out several times. Didn't bother me back then as I was just excited to finally own a real Fender.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

troyhead said:


> There is a local store in Kitchener that doesn't do refunds (Sherwood), so I didn't buy from there solely for that reason. But then I found that they are sometimes willing to give you a deal for items they have in stock. They also seem to give better offers on trade-ins. As a result, I've bought more than a few things there now. If I can accept not being able to return an item, I'll try to get it at Sherwood. If there might be a chance that I'll return it, or if I think it's likely to break and I want L&M's warranty, then I'll buy from L&M.



Got to love choice. Thats the beauty of different stores with different policies. I buy alot from the US from big dealers. I had to return a guitar once to Wildwood guitars because of a broken trussrod. It was a strat vintage reissue. I would have been happy with it but since I returned it I decided to go with one of their custom shop wildwood 10's which was a beautiful guitar. They simply billed my credit card for the difference but the taxes\brokerage double dipped and charged me on the cost of the whole guitar even though for more than half that cost I already paid and should have been only charged for the difference that I paid. Basically the morrow of the story is you can get burned no matter where you buy from


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

GuitarT said:


> I'm sure this sort of thing has been going on for a long time. I bought a brand new (or so I thought) Fender Lead I in 1981 from a local shop. Before I bought it I noticed a lot of excessive pick scuffing on the pick guard. They told me it was the first one they got in and a lot of guys have been trying it out in the store. Being a naïve 18 year old I was good with that but found out later from another staff member that it had been rented out several times. Didn't bother me back then as I was just excited to finally own a real Fender.


My first electric was a black Fender Lead II that I bought from Maestro music in St Thomas in 1980. I don't think I paid any attention to the condition of it. I just took it off the rack and buy it. Not like now where people seem to be more concerned with how it looks then how it sounds. I sold a Martin D-18GE a while back that was only about 3 or 4 months old and did not have a mark on it. Yet the guy that came to my house didn't leave for 3 hours. He scanned every inch and tried to convince me there were marks on it to get it cheap. It made me appreciate relic guitars even more as you don't have these problems. The only reason now that I'd be pissed if I bought a guitar that was supposed to be new and had marks on it because it was previously sold is because of the morons that worry more about condition and try to unreasonably low ball because of it. Relic guitars solve this issue.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> I love how a thread about a store misrepresenting a used guitar as new has turned into a debate about return policies and independent vs big box.


It may be somewhat related though...
There are two ways that used guitar in the OP showed up at L&M. Someone sold it to them/traded it in, or it was bought and returned. Having read through this thread and based on many others, I’d go with option B.

I know there’s also the possibility of it having been a rental but that scenario, along with option A, is much harder for the store to explain away when the very obvious “paper trail” is found. It’s much easier for them to rationalize “Oh, it’s not used. It’s just a return.”.


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## Tim Plains (Apr 14, 2009)

bigboki said:


> Wonderful store (except of parking  )


They moved to Guelph Line north of QEW. Great parking situation now.


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## Brian P (Dec 17, 2021)

That's a good one. I like this one:
View attachment 393300


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## Brian P (Dec 17, 2021)

GuitarT said:


> Ah yes, Loan & Persuade....


That's funny. I like this one, too.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

What a weird 1yo bump.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

Budda said:


> What a weird 1yo bump.


Looks like he has a good working knowledge of Microsoft paint from windows 95 though.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Budda said:


> What a weird 1yo bump.


two posts and gone. Might have had his panties in a bunch?


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## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

L&M has sold me a few things as "new" that were clearly used and returned. Line 6 Helix and an American Original Strat, for example. 

For amps and guitars, I don't really care, but for electronics like the Helix, I want it actually new and unopened. But for the most part, I get it and accept it as part and parcel of having such an accommodating return policy. 

Only thing that bugs me is when something is clearly used/not in new condition and they're pretending/lying about it being brand new. For example, the AO Strat had no clear plastic on the pickguard, the AO sticker was in the wrong place, the guitar had a bunch of light scratches, they didn't have the original case or COA, and they were still trying to pretend it was new, even when I outright questioned them on it.  I still bought it because I really liked it and they knocked down the price a fair bit.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

dgreen said:


> I am one of their "special" customers. The minute I leave the store with anything new I get hit with a 15% restock fee the very next day. They do this to a lot of customers that have a higher then "normal" return rate. I have talked in depth with Steve Long via email over the past two years to no avail.
> What really gets me is their advertising displays or shows nothing that " some limitaitions may apply" to their 30 day exchange policy. I feel it is misleading advertising at its best. I feel they owe it to their customer base to be CLEAR and TRANSPARENT as what they are doing I feel is technically illegal. I am sure legal advice would confirm my opinion.There are many of us that are considered "special" by L&M.


Nothing illegal about it and no, legal advice would not confirm your opinion. Stores are not obligated to accept returns so they can set individual return policies.

And their website clearly states:

*Hassle-Free Return Policy*
_
Products may be exchanged or returned for a full refund within 30 days of the purchase/shipping date, provided they are in original condition and include all of the original accessories and packaging.
Financed products and special orders will be subject to a restocking charge.
Any product exchanged or returned after 30 days will be subject to a restocking charge.
Products with missing accessories or packaging, as well as products no longer in original condition, can still be exchanged or returned, with replacement costs and/or product devaluation taken into consideration. 
If your purchase included a free shipping allowance, that amount will be deducted from the amount being refunded. Shipping insurance is non-refundable. 

Long & McQuade reserves the right to alter our return/refund policy to accommodate customers who are not utilizing the policy in good faith._


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

RBlakeney said:


> Looks like he has a good working knowledge of Microsoft paint from windows 95 though.



You owe me a keyboard. I snarfed my coffee when I read that.

No idea why I found it so funny, but I did.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

TubeStack said:


> L&M has sold me a few things as "new" that were clearly used and returned.



Happens everywhere. Does anyone actually think The Bay, Walmart, etc. are throwing stuff out that has been returned? They don't have a 'used' section so they are clearly putting things back on the shelf.


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## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

colchar said:


> Happens everywhere. Does anyone actually think The Bay, Walmart, etc. are throwing stuff out that has been returned? They don't have a 'used' section so they are clearly putting things back on the shelf.



Did I say it doesn’t happen anywhere else?


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

TubeStack said:


> Did I say it doesn’t happen anywhere else?



Did I say you had?


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

colchar said:


> Nothing illegal about it and no, legal advice would not confirm your opinion. Stores are not obligated to accept returns so they can set individual return policies.


Maybe I will clarify. I am one of the "special customers' that gets charged a 15% restock fee THE VERY NEXT DAY after making a purchase if I make a return.. And yes I have got a legal opinion, and yes unless they state "conditions may apply" , their advertising is illegal.


Ironically, last week I received a call from one of their regional managers (after over 5 years of this nonsense going on), and removing me from " the list" and giving me an apology. Really hoping to get back the approx. $3K they have charged in lost restock fees that were generally within 1-2 weeks of purchase. I have all the receipts of every transaction I have made since 1989 totalling over $106K from their chain.
All I can say is they lost a good customer as I have not really supported them like I used to for years now.


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

and one last comment, I did look at the final sentence in their new and revised return policy that you had posted @colchar :
_Long & McQuade reserves the right to alter our return/refund policy to accommodate customers who are not utilizing the policy in good faith._

So I guess they finally made an adjustment to their return policy. That last sentence was never in the policy until very recently. And I got my legal opinion almost 3 years ago now, before the last sentence was added in the policy.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

dgreen said:


> Maybe I will clarify. I am one of the "special customers' that gets charged a 15% restock fee THE VERY NEXT DAY after making a purchase if I make a return.. And yes I have got a legal opinion, and yes unless they state "conditions may apply" , their advertising is illegal.


If you got a legal opinion I doubt it was from a real lawyer. 

And no, their advertising is not illegal. Their website clearly mentions customers who abuse their policy, and you cearly fit that category.




> Really hoping to get back the approx. $3K they have charged in lost restock fees that were generally within 1-2 weeks of purchase.



If you have incurred $3000 in restocking fees than you are exactly the type of customer their perfectly legal policy is designed to deal with as you are clearly abusing their return policy.

And no, removing you from the list would not be an admission that you had done something wrong, it would simply be an attempt not to lose your business.


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

Yes I get all that, and as mentioned, they re worded their return policy recently to cover all platforms. So good for them. There are several long time managers that I have known for up to 30 years now and all of them have accommodated me and ignored the re stock fee as they know I am not one to abuse their policy. I just happen to fall into the generic grey area of the old policy.
I think L&M realizes they have upset some good customers over the years and now they are reaching out. They do prefer the customers that come into the store and actually buy gear.


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

dgreen said:


> Maybe I will clarify. I am one of the "special customers' that gets charged a 15% restock fee THE VERY NEXT DAY after making a purchase if I make a return.. And yes I have got a legal opinion, and yes unless they state "conditions may apply" , their advertising is illegal.
> 
> 
> Ironically, last week I received a call from one of their regional managers (after over 5 years of this nonsense going on), and removing me from " the list" and giving me an apology. Really hoping to get back the approx. $3K they have charged in lost restock fees that were generally within 1-2 weeks of purchase. I have all the receipts of every transaction I have made since 1989 totalling over $106K from their chain.
> All I can say is they lost a good customer as I have not really supported them like I used to for years now.


If you’re making constant returns , you’ve become one of “those guys”. 

Without a doubt, as soon as you walk out the door the staff are making side bets as to how soon you’ll be back with the item.

And each time you walk into the store the staff are looking at each other and saying “What’s he returning this time?”


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Their cashier computer has some type of algorithm that tracks purchases against returns. Too much of one or not enough of the other and you pay.

It's good to have all your purchases run through your account .


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

dgreen said:


> Ironically, last week I received a call from one of their regional managers (after over 5 years of this nonsense going on), and removing me from " the list" and giving me an apology. Really hoping to get back the approx. $3K they have charged in lost restock fees that were generally within 1-2 weeks of purchase. I have all the receipts of every transaction I have made since 1989 totalling over $106K from their chain.
> All I can say is they lost a good customer as I have not really supported them like I used to for years now.



So over 33 years, you've spent $106,000 or $3,212 a year. Well done.
In the "5 years of nonsense" you've paid $3,000 of 15% restocking fees. That means you've returned $20,000 worth of gear or $4,000 per year.

You say they've "lost a good customer".


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

2manyGuitars said:


> So over 33 years, you've spent $106,000 or $3,212 a year. Well done.
> In the "5 years of nonsense" you've paid $3,000 of 15% restocking fees. That means you've returned $20,000 worth of gear or $4,000 per year.


Unfortunately your generic averaging qoute is somewhat silly, as you are not aware of the sales volumes year by year in which I purchased gear over the past 31 years at L&M. So best to quit while your behind.
Mind you you do have a great sense of humor so koodoo's for that!

And yes, I return more gear then others, so lets take that out of the equation as you are all fixated on that point.

L&M has now added one extra sentence at the bottom of their return policy:
_Long & McQuade reserves the right to alter our return/refund policy to accommodate customers who are not utilizing the policy in good faith._

The whole point I was trying to make was that they finally altered their return policy to cover all angles 
no more, no less


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

dgreen said:


> Unfortunately your generic averaging qoute is somewhat silly, as you are not aware of the sales volumes year by year in which I purchased gear over the past 31 years at L&M. So best to quit while your behind.
> Mind you you do have a great sense of humor so koodoo's for that!
> 
> And yes, I return more gear then others, so lets take that out of the equation as you are all fixated on that point.
> ...


Well, I can only go by the information I was given and that was a couple of dates and a couple of dollar amounts. If you’d care to expand on the type of stuff you’ve bought over the past 5 years and what your typical returns are, I’m sure we could have a more informed opinion. I chose 5 because your point is the restocking fee and you mentioned the $3000 over that period.

But if you’ve incurred $3000 in restocking fees over the past 5 years, there’s no disputing that you buy and return a LOT of product. The math checks out at at _least_ $20,000 and that’s if they’re hitting you with the maximum. You’ve hinted that certain employees “are sweet on you” and don’t always charge you the full fee (or at all) so that implies that you’ve returned even _more_ gear that you haven’t been charged a fee on.

Whiter you’re using the policy in “bad faith” or you’re a customer that they should be rolling out the carpet for depends on where you fall on this scale...
A 10 would be, “I spend a lot of money there and the returns only represent a tiny portion of my purchases”.
A 1 rating would be, “I buy a lot of gear and return almost all of it”.

Let’s use that 5 year period.
To be at a 10, let’s say a customer returns 5%. That would mean that your $20,000 in returns represents $400,000 in purchases. So, you’re not a 10 because in 33 years, you only claim a quarter of that.

Is it a 25% return rate? Well that would mean $20k in returns on $80k in purchases. So $80,000 in the past 5 years and the other $26,000 over the preceding 28 years? Nah, that doesn’t seem likely.

Okay, so you’re knocked out of the top third of the scale. Your Willy Wonka, Golden Ticket status is not looking good at this point.

If we split it down the middle and say 50/50, you’re still skewing the averages in my earlier post. That’s $20k in returns on $40k in the past 5 years meaning the remaining $66k in purchases was over the previous 28 years. So a $2.3k/year average for the the first 3 decades, then suddenly ramping up to $8k/year. Logic would dictate that it likely would have started lower and gradually increased over that span but this 50/50 scenario would still make it awfully back loaded. Looks like we’re heading into the low end of the scale. As A famous cartoon dog was apt to say, Ruh Roh!

I won’t even bother with breaking down the numbers at this point because in my opinion, even someone who returns 25% is abusing the system, whether it’s intentional or not. Just because they having completely justifiable reasons in their mind doesn’t mean it isn’t hitting the bottom line of the retailer. I would guess you’re probably closer to the 50% (or more) category. If not, then you’re either lying about the $3k or the $106k. Also, I highly doubt your proclivity for “borrowing” gear only started 5 years ago. For it to kick in 5 years ago, that means you had been abusing the privilege (notice I specifically said “privilege” and not “right”) for a long time leading up to that. Sure, you’ve spent crazy amounts of money there but you’ve also admittedly gotten a lot of it back.

A business exists only to do one thing... To make money. People walk into a music store and see the building full of a million dollars worth of inventory but fail to realize how slim the profit margin is on a LOT of that gear. If they take a return and then have to discount it even 10% as a demo or return, that’s a significant hit. Never mind the work involved in processing returns and placing the item back in inventory. The 15% is fair to allow them to recover that amount with an extra few percent added as a disincentive for their “frequent flyers”.

A good customer is not someone who spends a lot. It’s someone that makes them money. Someone who spends a lot does make them money but if they return 25% of it, the discounts required on those returns probably cancels out the profit on the remaining 75%. “But they don’t need to discount it. I barely used it so sell it as new.” This has been addressed earlier. A legitimate, large scale business can’t get away with doing this on a regular basis. It catches up to them. It’s already been mentioned here how buyers have been turned off by having returned gear pawned off as new. It will be purchased but not without a significant discount. That brings us back to the restocking fee.

You seem to think that L&M should be wooing you to get your business back but face it, “he just not that into you”. Even a $10,000 a year client is a drop in the bucket. You may not realize it but you need them more than they need you. Go ahead and “take your business elsewhere”. You’ll likely be running around to several different retailers and doing a lot of online ordering and paying for shipping. Some may not have the same return policy. And BTW, when you spread your purchases around to many stores, you’re no longer the “big fish” so forget about your preferred customer status.

You need to go back to L&M, be thankful you still have a local (and Canada-wide chain) that has so much gear you need, and be little more judicious _before_ you buy. However, if you want to continue to “buy and try” at an alarming rate, be prepared to pay for that privilege.

...and I know, “You missed my point! This is all about the one sentence they added to the policy.” No, the point is you’re a bad customer and they don’t want your business.


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

gee, I would qoute your reply, but that would likely eat up a whole page of this thread.
All I can say is what I mentioned in my previous post.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

L&M has a rental department, you know. Just FYI you can try before you buy.


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## Pstar (Jan 28, 2011)

same thing going on at the burlington store. Returned used prs core model, now selling as new at the regular price. !
L & M new policies - even if used (returned within 30 days) , sell as new at full price ? ?


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

It bothers me to return stuff, but it bothers me more seeing people abuse it. Can only lead to ruining things for the average Joe in my opinion.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> L&M has a rental department, you know. Just FYI you can try before you buy.





BlueRocker said:


> It bothers me to return stuff, but it bothers me more seeing people abuse it. Can only lead to ruining things for the average Joe in my opinion.


They are not foolish and well aware that lots of people are using the return policy for free rentals. I've even seen it suggested on this forum, though perhaps in jest.

Blanket policies to prevent abuse of the return system (or the credit dept.) may occasionally catch the wrong people out; but the general intent is to prevent the bulk of their customer base from subsidizing the abusers.


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

jb welder said:


> Blanket policies to prevent abuse of the return system (or the credit dept.) may occasionally catch the wrong people out; but the general intent is to prevent the bulk of their customer base from subsidizing the abusers.


Maybe that is why I got a call from the L&M, BC regional sales manager last week offering an apology and that they have always appreciated my business. And he removed me from "the list" while on the phone with him. It was a nice gesture


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

jb welder said:


> Blanket policies to prevent abuse of the return system (or the credit dept.) may occasionally catch the wrong people out; but the general intent is to prevent the bulk of their customer base from subsidizing the abusers.


And sometimes the abusers still slip through apparently (see the last post before mine).


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

And to put a little perspective on things...

I used to work at a music store in the late 80s/early 90s. It was locally owned with 3 locations in the one city. This was before the big chains and L&M didn't have nearly the reach they do now. Their nearest store was hours away.

As a decent sized operation, our suppliers gave us what it widely know in the industry as a "B discount" or 40% off of MSRP. Using a Strat as an example, let's say Fender's "suggested retail" was $1000 so we paid $600. The standard street price at EVERY retailer was 25% off of retail so if you came to us, Steve's Music, or Billy Bob's Guitar Extravaganza, the selling price was $750. That means that if we sold the Strat, we were getting a 25% return on our $600 outlay. Out of that 25% "profit", we still had to pay salaries, rent, heat, electricity, insurance, taxes, etc., etc., etc. Let's just say you ain't gonna get rich selling musical instruments. The store did well because most of our money came from a pretty large lessons studio.

Now, let's say we have a generous return policy. Joe buys the Strat, uses it for 4 weeks, and returns it. We now have to knock 10% off and sell it for $675 as a demo. We made zero money of of Joe because he got a 100% refund and now when we sell that same Strat, we're only going to make $75. By the time we pay our overhead, me made next to nothing.

That return is no big deal because it was a one time thing. But then, Joe catches on and he's buying and returning almost $1700 worth of gear a month ($20,000 a year). Even if Joe is buying double that every month and only returning 50% of it, it's still going to hit the bottom line HARD. Not only that, our other regulars have been buying less gear because our store is "always filled with used gear" so now were losing some of those sales. We now have to institute a policy that we reserve the right to charge a restocking fee to recoup some of these losses.

Joe complains. Joe is a dick. Joe can shop elsewhere.


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## Tim Plains (Apr 14, 2009)

Pstar said:


> same thing going on at the burlington store. Returned used prs core model, now selling as new at the regular price. !
> L & M new policies - even if used (returned within 30 days) , sell as new at full price ? ?


What's the alternative, the store has to lose money, eat the depreciation, because you changed your mind you and returned a guitar for the full amount? If that's the case, we would all find a new guitar we like, buy it, return it 10 days later, buy it again used.


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## Pstar (Jan 28, 2011)

Tim Plains said:


> What's the alternative, the store has to lose money, eat the depreciation, because you changed your mind you and returned a guitar for the full amount? If that's the case, we would all find a new guitar we like, buy it, return it 10 days later, buy it again used.


Think you miss understood my post. I did not buy and return the guitar. Someone else did. Just an observation

It is being sold as new and at full price.

point is - it should be disclosed as used not new. Only 1 employee ( a friend) mentioned it. Other employees did not disclose.

Sure there is still profit margin on an expensive guitar, they don't lose based on their cost. Pricing is not the main subject, Non disclosure is the issue. Their policy is 30 day returns, and it is factored into there cost of goods calculations when pricing inventory.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Tim Plains said:


> What's the alternative, the store has to lose money, eat the depreciation, because you changed your mind you and returned a guitar for the full amount? If that's the case, we would all find a new guitar we like, buy it, return it 10 days later, buy it again used.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

So apparently I'm now on the list.

I want a legal opinion and I'm gonna sue because their advertising is illegal (seriously, WTF?)!!! Where is @Wardo ??? I need to hire his ass so that we can sue the shit out of L&M over this!!!!

In my defense, I have bought and returned a bunch of stuff recently but it was used gear not new gear. And I didn't buy them with the intention of using them then returning them, I bought with the intention of keeping the items if I liked them but, in the end I didn't, so I returned them. When I have bought new (ie. my Les Paul) I've kept it. But I've tried a bunch of pedals and amps (all used) and returned them so I was given 'the talk' today. That talk is something the other poster didn't bother mentioning. Actually, there were a few things he didn't mention.

So first you get the talk, then they start hitting you with a 10% fee, then if you keep abusing the policy the fee goes up to 15%. He makes it sound like they just started nailing him with fees but they warn you first (it was a friend who gave me 'the talk' so he showed me the flag on my account and I got to see the stages of the process). Now, if something is faulty you can still return it without penalty so it isn't an automatic fee and it is only charged if you buy something then change your mind. And the status gets reviewed after a couple of months so if you stop returning stuff, the flag comes off of your account.

And as I said, it isn't automatic unless you are abusing the policy. I was given the talk when returning something today, but I wasn't charged the fee. In that situation I was returning a used amp and was buying the same model new. They were absolutely fine with that return because I wasn't abusing the policy as some others do.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

colchar said:


> So apparently I'm now on the list.


I’m sure it ain’t the first and certainly won’t be the last list you get put on. 😆


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

2manyGuitars said:


> I’m sure it ain’t the first and certainly won’t be the last list you get put on. 😆



I can think of a few that I should be on!


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)




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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Powdered Toast Man said:


>


I wanna make a second account just so I can 🤣 this twice.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

A friend of mine asked about a $4500 piece of recording gear to try out. They brought it in. He rented it for a month. He decided he couldn't buy it with covid starting to shut down the world. So it was put into their rentals. Nobody rented it, but now he gets slightly cheaper because it's a rental unit.

I would say my buddy is a good guy because I found some used for $2500 without the $500+ taxes, but he's buying from L&M because they brought it in for him...


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

player99 said:


> A friend of mine asked about a $4500 piece of recording gear to try out. They brought it in. He rented it for a month. He decided he couldn't buy it with covid starting to shut down the world. So it was put into their rentals. Nobody rented it, but now he gets slightly cheaper because it's a rental unit.
> 
> I would say my buddy is a good guy because I found some used for $2500 without the $500+ taxes, but he's buying from L&M because they brought it in for him...


If it’s in their rental inventory, then I don’t really consider it in the same category as “buy and return, buy and return, lather, rinse, repeat...”.
And if he had rented it and kept it, they would have “discounted” it anyway by applying some of his rental towards it. Similar how when they sell rental items, they’ll discount it based on how much it has gone out.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

2manyGuitars said:


> If it’s in their rental inventory, then I don’t really consider it in the same category as “buy and return, buy and return, lather, rinse, repeat...”.
> And if he had rented it and kept it, they would have “discounted” it anyway by applying some of his rental towards it. Similar how when they sell rental items, they’ll discount it based on how much it has gone out.


You missed the part that they brought it in for him to buy, and he didn't.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

player99 said:


> You missed the part that they brought it in for him to buy, and he didn't.


Sorry. I read “They brought it in. He rented it for a month.” The fact that they rented it to him implies that there wasn’t necessarily an expectation of a purchase.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

2manyGuitars said:


> Sorry. I read “They brought it in. He rented it for a month.” The fact that they rented it to him implies that there wasn’t necessarily an expectation of a purchase.


When they brought in for him he didn't buy it, he brought it home for a short period to try it. When he didn't buy it they put it in rentals. 6-8 months later he rented it for a short time. Now he's buying one, and instead of a used one he's buying the one from them at twice the price because he thinks it's the right thing to do. I'm not sure exactly how it went, but they wouldn't have it in rentals normally.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

player99 said:


> When they brought in for him he didn't buy it, he brought it home for a short period to try it. When he didn't buy it they put it in rentals. 6-8 months later he rented it for a short time. Now he's buying one, and instead of a used one he's buying the one from them at twice the price because he thinks it's the right thing to do. I'm not sure exactly how it went, but they wouldn't have it in rentals normally.


And I guess this goes back to the point a lot of people have made in this thread. L&M has a return policy so there’s no shame in using it. Now, if your buddy was doing this with $20k or $30k of gear and not buying it later, then that’s a dick move and he shouldn’t get upset when there are repercussions.

But yeah, he’s okay in my book (for whatever _that’s_ worth).


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

I purchased a Boss barstool from L&M's online store on December 27, 2021 and received it 2 days later. Upon receiving and opening the package, though, it was very evident that it was both used and damaged (not new). Specifically, the box was very clearly opened and loosely taped back together, one of the legs had a gouge on it, the footrest bar had light scraping, the plastic feet/end caps were falling off and had dents on them and the cushion had wear markings everywhere (light scratches). This was very obviously a floor model or used return from the Pickering location. So naturally, I contacted web support, wrote a review for the item on the L&M website and took the item to my local L&M in Mississauga to return the item and explained everything in full. I get home over an hour afterwards and the review isnt posted anywhere and the Mississauga store now has a 'new' Boss barstool in stock that didn't exist before lol.


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## companydamned (Jan 14, 2011)

Shady but not surprising unfortunately...


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## PTO (12 mo ago)

I never knew there was a “list” but years ago someone at the cash did mention my return rate and encouraged rentals or another short-term solution. It was a little embarrassing but I appreciated the info because I honestly didn’t realize that even rapidly returned small items became “used.” I had assumed that the used gear was mostly trade-in or rental stock.

Now when I’m not 100% on something I always try to rent it first. They’ve pulled from new stock to rent to me (their idea) which I’ve appreciated, and I’ve watched them put a used price tag on.

I wish I could check my return “rating” like a
credit score, haha.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

The only choice I have that is any good is L & M. There are a couple smaller shops but I’ve had serious customer service issues with the 2nd best place and the other is a little too small, not the selection and brands I want. I’ve had nothing but good experiences with my local L&M (Sudbury), and I really hope it stays that way.


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## elburnando (11 mo ago)

I recently had an issue with a 60s standard AAA that I'd bought at L&M, and I was actually going to keep it anyway, until a salesperson convinced me I should return it since I wasn't happy and it was only 2 weeks later. Until then, I'd only purchased 2 guitars at L&M, and one I traded in on the Gibson. The other I kept and still have. With that trade-in, the manager said it was like new, and took it as a restock item, even though it was 3months on. I paid about $110 restock fee, rather than a straight trade in credit.

So at this point I have about $1400 in purchases(not counting small ones that they don't keep record), and $5700 in returns. Then I bought one of the Epiphone Wino LPs, as I wanted a cheaper guitar to beat on, and for my nephew to learn on til he gets his own.
When I got it, it was shit. The finish work was horrible, like a kid did it. I returned it the next day. The manager got all pushy, and tried to convince me to keep it. Then he made a comment about me being a "frequent returner" and that they'd start putting notes on my file. I tried to tell him that it was mostly because of 1 guitar, but he was unable to comprehend the simple mathematics involved, so I just left. I'm not against going there, but it's generally a last resort.


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