# How do you run your stage sound?



## marauder (Oct 19, 2009)

I assume this question falls under the PA section of this forum...if not, I apologize! I tried to search for this, as I figure it's a common problem for people starting out, but came up empty.

Looking for some advice on stage setup & stage sound. We're a new band, in the past just been basement players, but are now starting to play out. 5 piece band, with lead + rhythm guitars, bass, drums, and lead vocalist. Had 2 gigs so far, the second of which we really struggled with hearing what we wanted on stage. I'll describe what worked for us the first time, and what didn't the second time, and hoping you folks can chime in with what works for you. None of us are particularly experienced with proper sound, so any advice helps.

First of all, the gear: both guitars are using quality tube head + 1x12 cabs in the 15-20W range, and both typically have a tele & LP each. My bass rig is a 300W amp (LittleMark II @ 8ohm) through a 2x10 cab, with a fairly high output G&L L2k. We mic the cabs & drums, and DI the bass for the sound guy to use at will. Admittedly, we prefer to play a little on the loud side, but nothing ridiculous. Rhythm guitar and drummer also sing, so that's 3 necessary monitors, while myself (bass) and lead guitar don't sing so typically try and share one. We primarily play guitar-heavy rock, from Pink Floyd to the Black Keys.

Gig 1 (good): Small bar venue, pretty cramped stage. We pretty much had all the amps pointing in towards the stage (more from the corners than side fill) and relied more on the mics for FoH. This is typically how we set up for practice too, without FoH of course. Bar only had 3 monitors with 2 mixes to give us, but 2 of us don't sing and the stage was small enough that we could hear enough vocal through the lead vocals monitor. Sound guy worked for the bar, and though was frustrated with the quality of the system he knew how to control it well enough.

Gig 2 (not good): Bigger venue, large stage. We had the amps along the back wall of the stage (1 guitar to drummer's right, 1 + bass to drummer's left) facing out to the crowd. 4 monitors this time, but they were terrible. In the sound guy's defence, we had only hired him for that night and he was not familiar with the house gear at all. We had to keep amp volume lower than we usually play - my LM2 was between 9 & 10 o'clock (3-4/10), and I was told by sound guy that I was "overpowering" the rest of the band, so I had to turn down to where I could barely hear myself. We struggled to hear each other and our playing suffered as a result. It was as though the monitors weren't "good enough" to be able to handle too much vocal + instrument coming through them; the sound coming out was either lacking clarity or started to feedback if pushed. FoH sound was good, though, from what we were told.

Obviously, the next time we play we'll set up more like Gig 1, unless there are better ideas. We're now talking about what it would take to control our own monitor mix from the stage. IEMs are simply not in the budget, and though they're good in theory, I don't know if I'm completely sold and it's not really something that's easy to try before you buy anyway. Looking at the Rolls PM-351 as a cheaper alternative, but I'm not particularly fussy about being tethered to it, both functionally and aesthetically. They may work feeding into a powered monitor, but unless we have our own monitors we can't guarantee that the venue can support it. With the price of decent powered monitors, it'd be just as well to go IEM (unless we rent, which is feasible). At this point, we just don't know what road to take.

So...what do you do? How would you set up both a cramped and larger stage? Do you control your own monitor mix, and if so what's your setup?

Thanks in advance for the advice!


----------



## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

We are a 5-piece (2 guitars, bass, electronic drums, 4 vocalists, one of whom plays harmonica) and I do all the sound from the stage. First of all, our gear: Presonus 16.0.4 12 channel digital board into QSC K-12s for the mains, a QSC G3 and Rocktron Velocity 300 powering our 4 monitor mixes into the (3 JBL Tr105 and 1 Yamaha 12") monitors. The Presonus board is great as I can save every room mix to memory and recall it when we go back for return engagements. As everything is monitored (except bass), I can set the mix at rehearsal and start from there at the gigs with very little adjustment. I use a L6 Relay G50 wireless system on my guitar rig so I can wander out front and check the mix whenever I feel like it. The Presonus board also allows me to hook up my MacBook Pro and iPad so that I can adjust the mix remotely on the iPad from anywhere in the room. it's a sweet setup. This is the first time I have ever played with a drummer with an electronic kit and I absolutely love it. Loud stage volume is a thing of the past and, with everything miked, everyone on stage can hear *everything*. I have about 5 grand invested in this system but it is totally worth it. The only thing I want to add is a QSC K-Sub to fatten the bottom end.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Gig 1 seems like a better set up.

I have long been convinced that side washing the amps results in the best FOH mix in all but the biggest of shows (and then it doesn't make much difference). I'm also convinced that the musicians hear themselves better this way.

I tend to mic everything. If you don't, the sound man does not have control.


----------



## marauder (Oct 19, 2009)

Thanks for the feedback!


----------



## robare99 (Jan 9, 2012)

Turning down is good advice.

As long as the sound guy can bring you up in the monitors to compensate. I'll have the guitar players give me an A-Chord, and stand out front to get an idea of their levels bleeding off the stage. Myself, I like some sound coming off the stage to fill in that area, but I don't want it so overpowering that it's killing the patrons. Then set the gains (-15db, since I'm using a StudioLive 24.4.2) after that I bring up the guitars in each monitor, until they are happy with what they hear. 

I also put a bit of each guitar, in each others monitor so they can hear the other guitarist as well. After that, I do the same thing with the bass and their vocals. I usually sound check drums first, but whatevs. My monitors aren't anything spectacular, but they have 300W of power each, I haven't had any complaints yet! Actually I get lots of compliments on the stage mix.


----------



## flattopterry (Mar 6, 2011)

Two guitars, both using combo's, up on angled stands facing us, mic'd to FoH, and to monitor mix. We could play loud up on stage, get the tone we wanted, without overpowering the soundman. He loved it. I hate it when the soundman keeps telling me to turn it down.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

With amps facing the stage or side washing you"re a lot less likely to have a sound man ask you to turn it down.

To tell the truth, it's often the bass that's too loud on stage. That's really because the bass amp tends to "open up" about fifteen feet from the amp and with the bassist standing much closer than that he or she often doesn't hear the real volume coming from their amp. Add to that the natural tendency for bass frequencies to be omnidirectional and I find I often have to mute the bass guitar channel altogether.

I know not everyone will agree, but as someone who has done a lot of FOH sound, my honest opinion is that guitar and bass amps should be considered monitors only.

Keep your stage volume down as much as possible and let the PA do the heavy lifting.


----------



## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Milkman said:


> With amps facing the stage or side washing you"re a lot less likely to have a sound man ask you to turn it down.
> 
> To tell the truth, it's often the bass that's too loud on stage. That's really because the bass amp tends to "open up" about fifteen feet from the amp and with the bassist standing much closer than that he or she often doesn't hear the real volume coming from their amp. Add to that the natural tendency for bass frequencies to be omnidirectional and I find I often have to mute the bass guitar channel altogether.
> 
> ...


I totally agree, but it's so hard for our band to do this because we're mostly playing small bars and pubs. Some of the places are small enough that nothing is miked other than vocals and we just have to match volumes and even then we can be too loud at times for the room, despite trying to rein it in.

Do you have any suggestions for small venues like bars and pubs?


----------



## marauder (Oct 19, 2009)

Thanks again for the comments - great hearing from people with experience instead of us having to re-invent the wheel. Another thing we've thought about trying on larger stages (as in our Gig 2), is the guitarists using two cabs, one on either side of the stage so the other guitarist can hear (basically each would have a full stack, but both cabs have a separate feed). We have the gear (we have far too much gear!), so it's easy enough for us to do. At the same time, it should help to keep the volume down since Guitarist A doesn't have to crank it so Guitarist B can hear, and vice versa, and we can still focus on having primarily vocals only in the monitors so they don't muddy up. Thoughts on this?


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

hollowbody said:


> I totally agree, but it's so hard for our band to do this because we're mostly playing small bars and pubs. Some of the places are small enough that nothing is miked other than vocals and we just have to match volumes and even then we can be too loud at times for the room, despite trying to rein it in.
> 
> Do you have any suggestions for small venues like bars and pubs?


Yes, I suggest you rethink whether or not you can mic stuff. Even in tiny bars you can still have a unified FOH mix. It's all a matter of having stage gear suitable for the venue. If you're using a 4 X 12 in a room that seats 50 people(not saying you are), that's a part of the problem.

If the drum kit is too loud without being mic'd, the drummer may need an electronic kit or a plexiglass shield.

Getting the stage volume down to the point where it allows you to actually have an even mix out front is job one in my opinion.


----------



## marauder (Oct 19, 2009)

Milkman said:


> It's all a matter of having stage gear suitable for the venue.


Great comment, and something I think a lot of us tend to overlook when GAS hits.


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

> If the drum kit is too loud without being mic'd, the drummer may need an electronic kit or a plexiglass shield.


That's the deciding factor. All drummers aren't created equal. I mostly play in small places and generally only mic vocals and leslie. At a weekly jam I do we get a couple of drummers out. The drummer I prefer is a hard hitter and it naturally drives up stage volumes. I guitar player I play at this jam with is in another band with very heavy hitter. He went out and bought a 165 watt Music Man amp to play with that band with so he could be heard. I asked him how that work out.. the drummer hit even HARDER...


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

marauder said:


> Great comment, and something I think a lot of us tend to overlook when GAS hits.


I will do with out geetar toys if the sound system isn't up to snuff. I spent too long not hearing what I need to hear to put on the best performance I am capable of.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

To get a good FOH mix you need cooperation from all participants. If you can't hear yourself on stage, you might as well not be there. Most times it's not a matter of turning yourself up, but a matter of someone else turning down or at least redirecting their sound.

One of the best stage mixes I have had was with me running a Vox Tonelab direct to the PA. I have three monitor mixes so it was easy enough to give the other guya as much or as little of my guitar as they liked.

I heard myself just fine and as the sound was coming from my pair of wedges, it didn't interfere with the FOH mix much at all.

There's more than one way to get a good sound, but almost all of them involve reigning in the stage volume.


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

You got it Milkman. I friend told me in the 80's .. " up is down "


----------



## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Yes, I suggest you rethink whether or not you can mic stuff. Even in tiny bars you can still have a unified FOH mix. It's all a matter of having stage gear suitable for the venue. If you're using a 4 X 12 in a room that seats 50 people(not saying you are), that's a part of the problem.
> 
> If the drum kit is too loud without being mic'd, the drummer may need an electronic kit or a plexiglass shield.
> 
> Getting the stage volume down to the point where it allows you to actually have an even mix out front is job one in my opinion.


We've thought about a plexi shield for the drums. Our drummer can get quite loud and it's just a natural thing for him. He has a really hard time bringing it down. He normally complains that he can't hear us because the rest of us are trying to stay fairly quiet and he's hammering away. Since it doesn't seem like he's going to learn to play softer, the shield might be where it's at.

In terms of mic'ing, part of our hesitancy for mic'ing in small bars/rooms is because it just ups the amount of stuff we have to bring with us, set-up time, etc. It's a horrible excuse, but if we're playing a small room and not really getting paid very much, it just seems like so much trouble to go through. We usually sound pretty good, just sometimes louder than the owner likes (though not always).

In terms of gear, both guitarists have fairly small amps. I use either a Traynor YCS50 for really small shows, or a JTM45 and 2x12. The YCS50 has a master that I use to bring things down and I normally feed a signal to the PA from the DI out. The JTM45 is only ever used with an attenuator. The other dude has a Traynor YGM2 and uses an attenuator as well.



shoretyus said:


> That's the deciding factor. All drummers aren't created equal. I mostly play in small places and generally only mic vocals and leslie. At a weekly jam I do we get a couple of drummers out. The drummer I prefer is a hard hitter and it naturally drives up stage volumes. I guitar player I play at this jam with is in another band with very heavy hitter. He went out and bought a 165 watt Music Man amp to play with that band with so he could be heard. I asked him how that work out.. the drummer hit even HARDER...


Yes, I totally hear what you're saying. A few songs in from where I stand (to the right of the drummer) and my ears are ringing from the china and the ride!



Milkman said:


> To get a good FOH mix you need cooperation from all participants. If you can't hear yourself on stage, you might as well not be there. Most times it's not a matter of turning yourself up, but a matter of someone else turning down or at least redirecting their sound.
> 
> One of the best stage mixes I have had was with me running a Vox Tonelab direct to the PA. I have three monitor mixes so it was easy enough to give the other guya as much or as little of my guitar as they liked.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's the biggest issue in our band, again, mostly due to the drummer being the long-lost son of Animal from the Muppets. Our current tactic of turning down so that he can't hear us is sort of working. He's been playing more quietly lately, but when he really gets into it, we can hear the volume creeping up


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Does the drummer have his own monitor ? And that's not silly about bring minimal equip. That's smart.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Yup, you have to weigh the merit of a complex set up with the hassel of dragging it around and setting it up et cetera.

That's a practical consideration and everybody has to make a personal choice as to how much they are willing to do to sound as good as possible.

If you're looking at getting in and out quickly and not needing a van or trailer, you have to make cuts.


BUT, if I make cuts, it's to the size of the stage gear first. Instead of the half stack, try a 1 X 12, 2 X 12 or 2 X 10. Better yet, if you're not a modeler hater, go direct. Talk about lightening your load.




Does the drummer need double bass, or is a double kick pedal good enough? That sort of thing really helps lighten the load.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i have simply gotten too old to be lugging my JBLs, powered mixer, power amp, stands, cables and lights around, so i tend to book shows where the production is not my responsibility.

even in the smallest venues, i like to mic everything. if i could, i would buy a sound system with a subwoofer or two, and search for a roadie or two.


----------



## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

david henman said:


> ...i have simply gotten too old to be lugging my JBLs, powered mixer, power amp, stands, cables and lights around, so i tend to book shows where the production is not my responsibility.
> 
> even in the smallest venues, i like to mic everything. if i could, i would buy a sound system with a subwoofer or two, and search for a roadie or two.


Exactly! That's why I have put together the rig we are using. Just got tired of hauling big, heavy stuff around. I can fit our mains, a monitor, my guitar rig and my wife in my MINI Cooper!


----------



## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Milkman said:


> BUT, if I make cuts, it's to the size of the stage gear first. Instead of the half stack, try a 1 X 12, 2 X 12 or 2 X 10. Better yet, if you're not a modeler hater, go direct. Talk about lightening your load.
> 
> Does the drummer need double bass, or is a double kick pedal good enough? That sort of thing really helps lighten the load.


The drummer's kit is fortunately small, just a kick, 1 rack tom, 1 floor tom, snare and a bunch of cymbals.

There have been a couple times where I've just taken my Tech 21 British pedal with me and played through that for somewhere really cramped and I like it just fine that way, but I still prefer the "feel" of an amp. Though I've heard lots of good things about the Axe-Fx units, the costs are still too prohibitive for me to seriously investigate that route.



shoretyus said:


> Does the drummer have his own monitor ? And that's not silly about bring minimal equip. That's smart.


Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Sadly, it doesn't really help when he does, because he likes the monitor cranked and then just plays hard because he's hearing everything really loud and thinks he needs to "keep up."

Anyway, I don't really want to get too far off topic here. My band's specific issues are mostly drummer-related. I think we'll just try to investigate some different stage layouts in hopes of getting the drummer to lay off the mashing a bit and go from there.


----------



## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

My Rig is FOH a pair of QSC K12's with matching K-Subs. IT provides a Broad spectrum of sound. Monitors for a 5 piece Band is a combination of Hardwired in ear monitors(lead vocals and Drummer), and live sound monitors (lead guitar player Rythym Guitar(me) and bass player. 2 monitor sends for live and up to 6 for in ear. Power amp for live monitors is a Yorkville Ap2020. This amp will run 6, 250-300 watt 8 ohm monitors(3 per side at 2 ohms ) Mixer is a Mackie 1604VLZ pro. Great workhorse board.


Backline
Guitar amps(18 tube watt combos) are angled up at our ears using The "Sound Enhancer" Speaker stands, Miked. I find that this satisfies the guitar players needs for hearing themselves,and doesn't affect FOH as much, and they will have a bit in the Monitors, more or less for Just presence and to hear Cues. Bass amp is an Acoustic head (300Watt)with twin 15" bottom, not Miked and Drum kit(which is Miked) a little snare and kick in the monitors. 3 lead vocalist are the most obvious and predominant in the monitors.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

urko99 said:


> My Rig is FOH a pair of QSC K12's with matching K-Subs. IT provides a Broad spectrum of sound. Monitors for a 5 piece Band is a combination of Hardwired in ear monitors(lead vocals and Drummer), and live sound monitors (lead guitar player Rythym Guitar(me) and bass player. 2 monitor sends for live and up to 6 for in ear. Power amp for live monitors is a Yorkville Ap2020. This amp will run 6, 250-300 watt 8 ohm monitors(3 per side at 2 ohms ) Mixer is a Mackie 1604VLZ pro. Great workhorse board.
> 
> 
> Backline
> Guitar amps(18 tube watt combos) are angled up at our ears using The "Sound Enhancer" Speaker stands, Miked. I find that this satisfies the guitar players needs for hearing themselves,and doesn't affect FOH as much, and they will have a bit in the Monitors, more or less for Just presence and to hear Cues. Bass amp is an Acoustic head (300Watt)with twin 15" bottom, not Miked and Drum kit(which is Miked) a little snare and kick in the monitors. 3 lead vocalist are the most obvious and predominant in the monitors.


Those QSC bins are very nice. They're really the ultimate in terms of punch and portability.

Looks like an intelligent set up.


----------



## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

Thanks Milkman, It was your Input to the forum that steered me twards the QSC, FOH. Couldn't be happier!


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

urko99 said:


> Thanks Milkman, It was your Input to the forum that steered me twards the QSC, FOH. Couldn't be happier!


Glad it's working for you. I still need to grab a small set up like that. It's surprising how much SPL you can get from bins that are smaller than a typical home stereo speaker from the 70s.


----------



## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

Milkman said:


> BUT, if I make cuts, it's to the size of the stage gear first. Instead of the half stack, try a 1 X 12, 2 X 12 or 2 X 10. Better yet, if you're not a modeler hater, go direct. Talk about lightening your load.


Even someone who hates PODs and other modelers can add something like the Carl Martin Rock Bug (amp/speaker simulator) to his pedalboard. It is more like a DI and doesn't totally transform your sound like a typical modeler. It also makes a great backup if your amp fails during the gig.


----------



## robare99 (Jan 9, 2012)

One thing, real quick, our bass player puts his amp on the other side of the drummer so it has the room to breathe...If you can get your drummer to reign it in a bit, I'm betting the cymbals and snare are KILLING everything and then everyone has to turn up to compete... Might want to try Cympads to knock down a bit of sizzle on the cymbals. Not a perfect solution but it helps. www.cympad.com Individual monitor mixes are a nice feature to have. Everyone can be happy with what they are hearing. I know everyone loves balls out guitar but you're there to entertain the crowd, not scare then off with the Br00talz T0anz!!!Good luck!!! You do need some volume, but if you can keep it reasonable, you are much better off. As a sound guy, once the show starts there's not much I can do about levels. If you keep sneaking them up, I have to turn them down on the board to try to keep a good mix. Try to work with your sound guy if you can. You are all supposed to be on the same team!


----------

