# School Me On Attenuators



## colchar (May 22, 2010)

I know nothing about attenuators so need some advice.

I have a Marshall Vintage Modern 2266C (a 50 watt 2x12 combo) and would like to get the KT66 power tubes working, while still preserving my hearing (I have noise induced hearing loss). 

Using an attenuator will allow me to turn up the amp while keeping the volume at a reasonable level but I don't know which ones are good, which aren't, whether to get reactive or passive, etc. so I would welcome any and all advice anyone can give on attenuators.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I have employed many over the years from Rockman, Dr Z, Marshall, THD and Weber. I ended up selling them all. Each had pluses but all had the same minus. You cannot duplicate the tone, all will change the tone of the amp IMO to some degree. You end up fiddling around endlessly. They do what they advertise, but at the expense of tone. I just end up lowering the volume on the amp. There is nothing in the world like a cranked tube amp into a 4x12. It just can't be replicated IMO


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

If it's for home/studio use try building an isolation box?


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

The best use of an attenuator is for live shows in smaller venues. All that I have used are good for slightly lowering the volume of an amp while it is set in it's sweet spot. None that I have used are good for creating the sound of a cranked tube amp at bedroom volume levels. The sound is not bad. It is just not the same sound as a cranked tube amp. The best one I've used was a Ho attenuator/re-amper. I used it with several amps in 30 to 50 watt range. It has a 50 or 100 watt SS amp after the attenuator. The sound at bedroom levels was pretty good. It was not the same as a cranked tube amp but to my ears it was better than the others I tried. I sold it when I changed to using smaller 1 to 15 watt tube amps.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Is that Ho the amp tech from Vancouver?


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

Guncho said:


> Is that Ho the amp tech from Vancouver?


Yes, it was Ho from Vancouver. He licenses the technology to Ultimate Attenuator who does mail order. I'm not sure if Ho does mail order but you could phone him to find out.

Contact | Ho's Electronics and Sound

Home


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Nice. One time I brought my Seymour Duncan Convertible head with miles of circuit boards and wires in for repair and he scrunched up his face and said, "Oh no Seymour Duncan!! Buy good amp like Marshall!"


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## DaddyDog (Apr 21, 2017)

I have tried just a couple. Things to be aware of:
1. As mentioned above, do not expect to get the same tone at bedroom volume. I found attenuators were good when bringing down the volume just a bit. The lower you go, the more it affects your tone. I often get lots of fizziness. It's not a nice overdriven sound.

2. Be aware of wattage limitations. For instance, the Swart is good for 20W or less.

3. Most attenuators are not fully adjustable. They step down in increments. Makes it a bit of a challenge to find that sweet spot.

4. Also look into the attenuating speakers from Eminence. I have the Reignmaker. They also have the Maverick. Again, I found it was good at a bit of attenuation.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Kerry Brown said:


> Yes, it was Ho from Vancouver. He licenses the technology to Ultimate Attenuator who does mail order. I'm not sure if Ho does mail order but you could phone him to find out.
> 
> Contact | Ho's Electronics and Sound
> 
> Home


Great link KB! Thanks. I am GASsing the no-frills tube amp.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

IME, the less you have to use an attenuator, the better it works. By that I mean if you only need to take a few dB out, they aren't that bad. The more you try to attenuate with one - like to bedroom levels - the worse it impacts your tone (for a variety of reasons). 

So to make a big amp a slightly smaller they may work for you. A better choice for gigging big amps is a reamper, like the Ho or BadCat Unleash or Fryette PowerStation. These are all good to great gigging solutions.

If I was looking for quieter levels to play at home or record with, I'd be looking at some of the new power loads coming out from companies like Suhr, Two Notes, Fryette, Radial, etc. The good ones aren't cheap - but the market is getting bigger and more competitive all the time.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I play at home in an apartment. I use a Weber Mini Mass 25 to get power tube breakup with a 15w Fender Super Champ X2. Works good enough for me.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

so...getting back to the question from the OP

if you have a 50W amp...you would most likely want an attenuator rated more than 50W, correct? i mean, if you are running it full out, it would put out more than 50W...or, would that rating be enough?

That has always been my question...how to know which one to choose


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

I'll echo what others have said and note that attenuators sound better the less you actually attenuate the signal. If you're looking to achieve bedroom volumes, you'll have to be prepared for some fizz. I've used the Dr. Z,. Weber Mass, THD, the UA and a couple others I can't recall now, and they all sounded decent at a couple db down, but when you start to really reduce the output, it gets sketchy.



Kerry Brown said:


> Yes, it was Ho from Vancouver. He licenses the technology to Ultimate Attenuator who does mail order. I'm not sure if Ho does mail order but you could phone him to find out.
> 
> Contact | Ho's Electronics and Sound
> 
> Home


+1 to the Ho/UA. I had a UA and loved it. It was definitely the one I used longest, but one thing to keep in mind - the Ho/UA isn't an attenuator as much as it's a _re-amping_ device. It actually takes your signal and converts it to line-level, then feeds it through a solid-state amp to the speakers. This has benefits and drawbacks. I thought it sounded great, but the idea of running all this fancy t00b-amp goodness through a skimpy (and it IS a skimpy) 200 watt SS amp was a little unsettling. If you can get past that and just listen, it sounds great.



DaddyDog said:


> I have tried just a couple. Things to be aware of:
> 1. As mentioned above, do not expect to get the same tone at bedroom volume. I found attenuators were good when bringing down the volume just a bit. The lower you go, the more it affects your tone. I often get lots of fizziness. It's not a nice overdriven sound.
> 
> 2. Be aware of wattage limitations. For instance, the Swart is good for 20W or less.
> ...


Very good advice here. 

#3 in particular annoyed me. The Dr. Z was fantastic, but it's clicks were a little too far apart sometimes. Keep in mind the Ho and the THD are a little more versatile in this regard.

I can definitely recommend the Eminence Reignmaker. I had one and it did a great job. Sounded incredible and reduced the amount of outboard gear I needed, BUT (and this is a big but), it only shaves off a small amount of volume. Maybe enough for you to get into a usable range, but my JTM45 was still VERY loud running through the Reignmaker, even at full attenuation. Attentuator is again the wrong word here, as what it does is affect the driver's sensitivity, but I guess the term gets throw-around a lot.


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## Guest (Oct 19, 2017)

While clicking on tangents on youtube for stuff about my amp, I came across this vid.
A 'DIY volume box'. Sorta like a 'master volume' plugged into the send/return on your amp.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

ezcomes said:


> so...getting back to the question from the OP
> 
> if you have a 50W amp...you would most likely want an attenuator rated more than 50W, correct? i mean, if you are running it full out, it would put out more than 50W...or, would that rating be enough?
> 
> That has always been my question...how to know which one to choose


I would err on the safe side and contact the manufacturer. In my opinion, if they call it a 50W attenuator, it should be able to handle an overdriven 50W amp, even if that happens to be more than 50W. Or they should have a note on their website advising otherwise. For example, see how they word this one:
MiniMASS 50w Attenuator


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

hollowbody said:


> I can definitely recommend the Eminence Reignmaker. I had one and it did a great job. Sounded incredible and reduced the amount of outboard gear I needed, BUT (and this is a big but), it only shaves off a small amount of volume. Maybe enough for you to get into a usable range, but my JTM45 was still VERY loud running through the Reignmaker, even at full attenuation. Attentuator is again the wrong word here, as what it does is affect the driver's sensitivity, but I guess the term gets throw-around a lot.


I've used a Maverick (the American voiced FDM version) for a few years now and it works quite well. The specs indicate a sensitive of from 100 dB WFO to 91 dB fully turned down. That's comparable to making a 50 watt amp sound like a 6 watt amp.

It is noticeable but it wouldn't be bedroom levels for anything but a much smaller amp. That's still pretty loud, if you've ever cranked a 5 watt amp through a 100 dB sensitive speaker, you know what I mean. Like a trumpet player loud. 

My DRRI would be comparable to a 3 watt watt amp with the speaker turned right down. It's still pretty loud, when you think a 3 watt amp through a 100 dB speaker will be around 106 dB at 1 meter. A 5 watt amp would be similar to an amp less than 1 watt. So less than 100 dB at 1 meter (and quieter as you get further away of course). That's probably now getting into the realm of "cranked tube amp at bedroom or TV volumes".


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## Business (Jul 30, 2013)

I use a Hot Plate on the -4dB or -8dB setting and it doesn't suck much tone

OT, has anybody tried the Ho Tone Enhancer?


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

jb welder said:


> I would err on the safe side and contact the manufacturer. In my opinion, if they call it a 50W attenuator, it should be able to handle an overdriven 50W amp, even if that happens to be more than 50W. Or they should have a note on their website advising otherwise. For example, see how they word this one:
> MiniMASS 50w Attenuator


thanks for that read! it's what i had always thought, but no one really talks about it

on the other side...i've heard of guys running 100W plexis cranked (ie the Darkness) into an attenuator...but i don't recall ever seeing an attenuator rated higher than 100W, not saying there aren't, but maybe they also go thru attenuators/tubes like pez


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Thx for starting this thread Colchar. 

A brilliant education in the ways attenuators work! 

Knowlege! I love it. 

An awesome thread!!


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

High/Deaf said:


> I've used a Maverick (the American voiced FDM version) for a few years now and it works quite well. The specs indicate a sensitive of from 100 dB WFO to 91 dB fully turned down. That's comparable to making a 50 watt amp sound like a 6 watt amp.
> 
> It is noticeable but it wouldn't be bedroom levels for anything but a much smaller amp. That's still pretty loud, if you've ever cranked a 5 watt amp through a 100 dB sensitive speaker, you know what I mean. Like a trumpet player loud.
> 
> My DRRI would be comparable to a 3 watt watt amp with the speaker turned right down. It's still pretty loud, when you think a 3 watt amp through a 100 dB speaker will be around 106 dB at 1 meter. A 5 watt amp would be similar to an amp less than 1 watt. So less than 100 dB at 1 meter (and quieter as you get further away of course). That's probably now getting into the realm of "cranked tube amp at bedroom or TV volumes".


Yup, this is why the big amps sit around collecting dust. My DRRI, Bassman and JTM never got past 3 or 4 on-stage, and even then they were quite loud. My 30 watt JTM could put out over 110db, which is as loud as a chainsaw. No one needs that!

The era of small amps mic'd up is such a godsend. Keep things lower on-stage, balance sound out more, get things pumping in the FoH. Our shows sound so much better with everything mic'd up and run into the board. Hell, the PA is pumping out 2,500 watts, why not let it do the heavy lifting?


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## Pewtershmit (Jun 13, 2014)

I’ve experimented with them all and without a doubt the best I’ve tried is the Fryette Power Station


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

hollowbody said:


> I can definitely recommend the Eminence Reignmaker. I had one and it did a great job. Sounded incredible and reduced the amount of outboard gear I needed, BUT (and this is a big but), it only shaves off a small amount of volume. Maybe enough for you to get into a usable range, but my JTM45 was still VERY loud running through the Reignmaker, even at full attenuation. Attentuator is again the wrong word here, as what it does is affect the driver's sensitivity, but I guess the term gets throw-around a lot.



One of the best things about the Vintage Moderns is the speakers, the same ones that were designed for the Hendrix reissue and were only used for that and the Vintage Modern.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Since I want decent tone at lower volumes I need to take some time this weekend to decide if I wan to try to accomplish that with the Marshall, with a lower wattage amp, or if I want to say screw it and dive into the world of higher end modellers (Eleven Rack, Helix, etc.).


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

I'll just throw this out for the people that are looking to play at apartment levels.
If you want to play an amp cranked at bedroom level, (rather than turn down a master) most guys that are building the little mini amps say the level you are looking for is somewhere between 1/10th and 1/4 of a watt!


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

Totally agree with this. I use a 1 watt Blackstar tube amp for practice. I live in a duplex and have to use headphones if the neighbours are home. I use it with a 1x12 cab. Much above 10:00 o’clock on the volume and it’s too loud in a duplex with decent sound proofing. To get my preferred sound with it I have the volume and gain both at 3:00 o’clock. It is a beautiful saturated sound that is way too loud for home use, even with just one watt.


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## Business (Jul 30, 2013)

Most of the time I just play my Engl E530 preamp plugged straight into a 1x12 (1W SS power amp in there)
And I play it at minimum volume too at night


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Playing a Marshall you want power tube breakup rather than preamp tube distortion. But to get that breakup, the amp has to be _loud_.

Another option is to have a tube amp that has awesome cleans and is a great pedal platform. With an amp like that it doesn't matter if you are playing at low volumes because you are getting your dirt from pedals. I am about to grab a vintage Traynor YGM-2 (it lacks reverb so is the less desirable version of the YGM-3) and will see how I like using it as a pedal platform.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

There seem to be three common types of attenuators, resistive, reactive and voice coil, and a few other possible types.

Load boxes are similar, except they can go to silence and can be used instead of a speaker.

Some attenuators use the voice coil from a speaker. I'm not sure where the energy goes, are they vibrating something? It seems like a good idea.

The attenuating speakers are similar in a way, pretty cool, they make the speakers more or less efficient. That's another way to lose the power, use low output speakers.

Some use a resistor across the speaker. A Herzog is like that. I tried playing my Herzog through a cabinet, it was much smoother, all that fuzzy, hairy goodness was gone. I assume they can sound fuzzy and hairy.

A reactive attenuator tries to present back to the amplifier all the complex interactions that a speaker gives it, whatever those interactions are, out-of-phase current and voltage surges, I guess. I'm not sure if that is as important when you aren't going to zero or bedroom levels.

The reactive ones are built with coils or capacitors, but you could probably do something with an amplifier giving the feedback.

The Ho one sounds interesting. There are some by Two Notes like that, they call it re-amping, but that term is also used for something else. I've been interested in the impulse speaker cabinet modelling they do.

Why not a noise cancelling cabinet, like noise cancelling headphones? Would you use a separate amp and cabinet, or make two speakers work against each other?

I can't remember if I've seen any that try to do work with the dissipated energy, maybe a light show, or a power filter. I had some Pulse stage monitors that would light up when they were peaking.

This is why people went to pedals!


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Hammerhands said:


> Some attenuators use the voice coil from a speaker. I'm not sure where the energy goes, are they vibrating something? It seems like a good idea.


I've not heard of that. Could you tell me more about it or who is making it? I think I've heard of someone using an electric motor as a reactive load, but never a speaker coil (which is also an electric motor) with a cone. Interesting.



> The Ho one sounds interesting. There are some by Two Notes like that, they call it re-amping, but that term is also used for something else. I've been interested in the impulse speaker cabinet modelling they do.


I'm not aware of Two Notes making a re-amper, only a load box - that could be a re-amper by plugging it into a power amp. I'm only aware of the Ho, BadCat and Fryette re-ampers.



> Why not a noise cancelling cabinet, like noise cancelling headphones? Would you use a separate amp and cabinet, or make two speakers work against each other?


That's an interesting idea. I wonder if someone incorporated that into an isolation cab, the cab maybe wouldn't have to be so insulated? On the other hand, we tend to mic the inside of an iso cab so the cancellations wouldn't work for that. 

That was an old trick to break in hi-fi speakers - place them face to face and run them out of phase. Much of the energy was cancelled out acoustically.



> This is why people went to pedals!


..............but have also come full-circle back to power amp distortion with kazillions of small amps, various load boxes and re-ampers. There's a market for everything. Pedals don't 'do it' for me. They're a great spice to add on top of a great meal, but I gotta have my meat and potatoes of power tube sag and overload characteristics.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

colchar said:


> Since I want decent tone at lower volumes I need to take some time this weekend to decide if I wan to try to accomplish that with the Marshall, with a lower wattage amp, or if I want to say screw it and dive into the world of higher end modellers (Eleven Rack, Helix, etc.).


You have given yourself only two options - all dirt from tubes or all dirt from digital. And they are potentially costly and complicated. I dove head first into the world of attenuators a few years back, buying supposedly one of the best out there- the bad cat unleash. I couldn't get over what it did to my dynamics as I used the guitars volume knob. It was not natural at all. It was also in my opinion unnecessarily complicated adding lots of cables to the setup and bulky for jamming and gigging purposes. It's also costly. Given the quality and affordable options out there I am much much happier getting the grit from dirt pedals and then getting the body and oomph so to say from the amp/speakers. It also gives me options. I have one overdrive one distortion and two flavours of fuzz. All going into a amp that is medium overdriven. That being said I use a 40w yba1 mod1 with a ppmv that I pretty much leave at 5w for rehearsals and 20w for gigs. It says attenuator but apparently it's not quite the case. I imagine you'd get similar results with a regular master volume.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

colchar said:


> Since I want decent tone at lower volumes I need to take some time this weekend to decide if I wan to try to accomplish that with the Marshall, with a lower wattage amp, or if I want to say screw it and dive into the world of higher end modellers (Eleven Rack, Helix, etc.).


My suggestion is to go with a digital platform. For lower volume applications, pretty much unbeatable. Late night recording is also an added bonus with digital.

My favorite attenuator is the Iron Man II by Tone King / Mark Bartel. 

My RedPlate amp has a great MV and I have been playing this amp in the evenings a lot more but....my AXE FX II is still the go to for lower volume applications. In the end, you need volume for the mid range of a guitar to shine so it's always a compromise (even with Digital).


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## topboost (Nov 18, 2010)

I've lived in a 750 sq. ft. condo for years. I've had a weber mini mass for years. It uses a reactive load for attenuation via the speaker motor it uses. It has a line out and dummy load setting when its at full attenuation. I run my tube amps('70 Princeton, '65 vibrochamp, '90's Vox ac15)through it. I run the soak at full atten, line out to my recording interface, load up my Two notes speaker sims in reaper and play at whatever volume I want. Yes it takes a while to set up, but once you have a recording session saved with everything set it only takes a few seconds to load that up before playing. This is by far the best apartment volume tone I've ever used. I do all of my pro recording this way as well. No way I could mic up an amp with all of the options without spending a lot of money at a studio with maybe better(or maybe not) better quality. And I can run my amps into an endless option of cabs. Is it better than my Pod HD? It is, although the pod can get really close and they are cheap to buy now. But for the price of a used minimass and a few cab sims from Two notes a cheapo recording interface, your computer and a DAW like Reaper and a set of decent studio monitors I get tones that are way better than having an amp soaked down to talking level. You just can't get away from the physics of squishing an amp down in volume like that. It's always going to be really compressed.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

I have tried the following: Marshall Power Brake, Dr Z Trainwreck Airbrake, Sholtz Power Soak, Kendrick (Trainwreck) Airbrake, Ho attenuator, Weber Mass, prototype Komet brake & THD.
Still have the Weber Mass and Komet, and sold all the others.

I will repeat what had already been said. None of them quite work for "bedroom" levels. I still use the Komet brake with my Express clone, but for the most part I find using pedals a better way to get overdriven tone in a quiet setting. Attenuators work well for knocking down the volume of an amp on 11 to an amp on 8, but they don't work for low volumes. Too "fizzy".


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> I've not heard of that. Could you tell me more about it or who is making it? I think I've heard of someone using an electric motor as a reactive load, but never a speaker coil (which is also an electric motor) with a cone. Interesting.


All the Weber "Mass" products have speaker motors inside. I would think with the spider but not much room for any cone in there.


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## Farkozoid (Oct 14, 2017)

Total snark, but the way get away from an attenuator is to just play a smaller wattage amp! I got rid of all my "big" gear awhile ago (once I wised up IMO), and even my GV40 (50w Bassman clone pretty much) is too loud once the tone starts seeping in (aka as soon as enough voltage creeps in to wake the tubes up), even at the bar I tend to play. I have been playing a 5 watter now for the better part of a year and love it, I just crank it to 7+ and run just a trem pedal for colour. The rest of the tone is just me, the guitar, and the amp. 

If I had it my way, everyone would just play straight into a 12 watt dimed out Tweed and be done with it! I'd have the most boring music store on the planet (boring, but the T-O-N-E!)

Thanks for the education though on "power brakes", always love a bit of insight into the workings of our hobby. Keep strumming lads!~


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