# Vintage Garbage



## JimiGuy7 (Jan 10, 2008)

Hey all. Is it just me or are more and more people starting to think that because something is over 20 years old it is vintage and is automatically worth more? I mean both Fender and Gibson in the 70's and 80's where garbage comparatively speaking. I am comparing them to guitars prior to those years and post 80's. I mean, I am sure that there are those of you out there that love you 1974 Gibson whatever and your 82 Fender something else and that is totally cool and respectable, but in all reality these guitars where poor examples of great guitars. Gibson and Fender both, did nothing good for there guitars or there names throughout those years. All they did was cut build costs, mass produce these cost effective garbage guitars and slap on a price tag. I am saying this because I am seeing so many of these guitars with "vintage" and "rare" and "classic" on the adds and to top it off these douche bags are slapping on a price tag that is so unrealistic and ridiculous that it makes you want to puke. Like I said, if you like the guitar cool, you know, if the shoe fits wear it. But, if you decide to sell it, realize that what you have is, by todays standards, a poorly built piece of gear from an era that was a blemish on a once great brand name, not a "vintage, rare, calssic" with a price tag 10 times more then what it is actually worth. So do some research and be prepared to have your original price drop.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

That is a subject that has been hashed around a lot in the past. Many different opinions for sure. Here is a thread from a while back

http://www.guitarscanada.com/vintage/14840-what-vintage.html


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## JimiGuy7 (Jan 10, 2008)

It just makes me mad, to see that there is so much proof out there to support what I am saying, yet people can be so naieve.


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

Too many people think vintage is an adjective to describe something old; it actually refers to a period of time, e.g. "pre CBS vintage Fender". Both a '57 strat and a '72 strat are old, but there's no comparing a late 50s-vintage strat to an early 70s-vintage strat. As you can see from that example the word "vintage" associates with the time period, not the item. Like wine.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

actually, I think you are being naive to generalize those eras of guitars into 'garbage'. Perhaps you need to get out and play a few more.

I agree, the term 'vintage' gets used way too often, and means nothing. A used or old guitar is worth simply what someone will pay, no matter how hard someone tries to make it sound like it should be worth more.


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## JimiGuy7 (Jan 10, 2008)

dwagar said:


> actually, I think you are being naive to generalize those eras of guitars into 'garbage'. Perhaps you need to get out and play a few more.
> 
> Well, considering the quality now and the quality before those garbage years, I think my statement is justified. I have`nt seen a pancake guitar in quite sometime, have you. And as far as getting out and playing more of these guitars goes, to be honest and fair I have played my share of them and they are not any more inspiring then new models. Actually quite the opposite. I would`nt write something like this without having played and physically touched these guitars. I don`t care if people like them, give`r. It is your choice. All I am saying is don`t sell them for more then they are worth, and don`t classify them as something they are not. I would pay more for a modern Gibson Les Paul Deluxe re-issue then I would for one from the GARBAGE years. I can see there being the odd exception, but c`mon, let`s get real here. We all know how cheap guitar companies where throughout those years.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

quote: I have`nt seen a pancake guitar in quite sometime, have you.

Check my sig. I own a pancake guitar.

Used guitars don't sell for more than they are worth. They sell for exactly what they are worth. Granted, I see guys asking prices sometimes that I think are right out of touch with reality. But, that'd be my opinion. Maybe someone else thinks it's reasonable and pays the price. Or they have to drop their price until it does sell.

I've played some from those years I didn't like, I've played some I really did like. I remember one 3 bolt neck Strat I still wish I would've bought. IMO each guitar has to be looked at and played to see if you like it. Ignoring one just because it comes from some year you think is GARBAGE is silly.


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## JimiGuy7 (Jan 10, 2008)

dwagar said:


> quote: I have`nt seen a pancake guitar in quite sometime, have you.
> 
> Check my sig. I own a pancake guitar.
> 
> ...


Agreed, and I don`t ignore them. I was recently looking into a 76 Deluxe, but the guy was a total douche and would not budge on his ridiculous asking price because he thought he had a real collectors item (as he put it), which sparked this thread. There are actual blue book values for guitars, and a lot of the prices I see don`t correspond with what they are actually worth and there seems to be no talking people down due to the fact that have this miscopnception that there guitar is rae or vintage because it is 25 years old.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

gotcha. I see that a lot over on the MLP forum. When guys find out what their guitar is really worth, they are pissed and never come back.

I'd guess that comes from the huge value placed on some of the 50's guitars, and some 60s guitars. Everyone hopes their guitar is a gold mine.


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## bobb (Jan 4, 2007)

Without naming guitars or choosing years my question is, if it was considered junk when it was new, what has happened to make it a wonderful piece now that it's "vintage"?


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

without naming guitars or years, I'd have to ask who considered it junk, and why?
There are probably some oddballs that have become collectible due to low production?


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## jcober (Jun 7, 2010)

the 1970s are twice as old as I am, so I think of the stuff from that era as vintage. I agree that there is no comparison between a 1950s era fender and a 1970s fender, but they both have merits on they're own. To be fair, Im in love with silverface fender amps. Im able to say without a shadow of a doubt that I prefer them to the blackface era just beause for some reason the SF fenders hold a special place in my heart. I think vintage is a very subjective term. Im not going to go ahead and make assumptions and Im certainly not trying to be insulting, but Ill guess you were alive to see the 70s and this is why you feel this way. Subjectivism will go a long way (maybe that makes me a fence sitter, and I truly hope my butt doesnt start to hurt). Alas, I digress, perhaps you feel this way because you dont want to be considered vintage  Im only kidding of course and realisticly I have no idea of your age, so Ill keep my mouth shut. Oh dear...


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

JimiGuy7 said:


> I mean, I am sure that there are those of you out there that love you 1974 Gibson whatever and your 82 Fender something else and that is totally cool and respectable, but in all reality these guitars where poor examples of great guitars. Gibson and Fender both, did nothing good for there guitars or there names throughout those years.


This sort of generalizing ignores that there were good guitars made during those years, and that there were crap ones made before & after those years as well. Unless you've played every one of those guitars-who are you to say they were poor examples?
The nicest guitar I ever played was a Norlin era Les Paul 25/50 Anniversary model. It played incredibly, and sounded great.
I have a friend who had a Norlin era SG that had the best neck I have ever played on a guitar.
I could go on with more examples.


JimiGuy7 said:


> It just makes me mad, to see that there is so much proof out there to support what I am saying, yet people can be so naieve.


Does that mean if people disagree they're naive? Just asking.


dwagar said:


> actually, I think you are being naive to generalize those eras of guitars into 'garbage'. Perhaps you need to get out and play a few more.
> 
> I agree, the term 'vintage' gets used way too often, and means nothing. A used or old guitar is worth simply what someone will pay, no matter how hard someone tries to make it sound like it should be worth more.


Amen--I totally agree with this.


JimiGuy7 said:


> Well, considering the quality now and the quality before those garbage years, I think my statement is justified. I have`nt seen a pancake guitar in quite sometime, have you.


I have one on my lap that I've been playing tonight.


dwagar said:


> I see that a lot over on the MLP forum. When guys find out what their guitar is really worth, they are pissed and never come back.


Yes, a lot of people over rate the value of their guitars--and I realize this is part of the OP's point as well.

Personally I don't care what my guitars would sell for--I'm not selling them.
I know most of them, if not all, are not worth a lot to sell, but they would cost more than that to replace them.


bobb said:


> Without naming guitars or choosing years my question is, if it was considered junk when it was new, what has happened to make it a wonderful piece now that it's "vintage"?


A great point. And one that needs to be pointed out to the people who ask too much for the old guitars.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Makes me think of cars over 25 years old and that there are some people that would actually consider this car vintage, no matter how good the condition is.










There guitars from the 50s that are lemons. There are guitars from the 80s that are gems. No different today. Market defines the value, sometimes unfortunately.


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## bobb (Jan 4, 2007)

Just remember, if you find a mint unplayed guitar from the 50s or 60s, ask yourself why is it unplayed? 

This thread reminded me of some comments back in the 80s. Talk about vintage was just taking off and Japanese guitars were starting to become popular. There was a running joke about never seeing "vintage" and Ibanez" in the same sentence. Little did we know...


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## JimiGuy7 (Jan 10, 2008)

bobb said:


> Without naming guitars or choosing years my question is, if it was considered junk when it was new, what has happened to make it a wonderful piece now that it's "vintage"?


I could`nt have said it better myself.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

I have a 1971 Gibson SG Deluxe that plays better than most SG's that I have tried and it absolutely kills any of the new SG's on the market. 

Speaking of which, a year ago I was looking to buy a new SG to use as a back up and I was shocked at how poor and inconsistent Gibson's current line is. I played six exact models of which five were complete garbage. I was perhaps more shocked to play an off shore Dillon SG which was superior to all of the Gibsons.


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## Spikezone (Feb 2, 2006)

zontar said:


> Personally I don't care what my guitars would sell for--I'm not selling them.


I agree. I have a 75 Les Paul Standard that I bought new and wouldn't part with. I love that guitar and one day out of curiosity I checked its value and was shocked how little it was actually worth, but like you said, it's a moot point because it's not for sale anyway.
-Mikey


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## big frank (Mar 5, 2006)

Yes; I have a Norlin Gibson. Wouldn't sell it; ever!
It's an E.S. 325 from about 1972 with mini humbuckers; several "undesirable" features like 
a volute (that neck will never snap), and a plastic control plate.
I've put lots of miles on the guitar and the Toronto pro who owned it before me must have loved it very much. It's in beautiful shape, but has been played a lot judging from the fading of the brown walnut finish on the back of the wonderful slim neck. 
It's a very well-built guitar with quality parts.
It SOUNDS fantastic too!
Is it worth a lot of money? Not from where I sit. I payed about 11 hundred dollars for it 8 years ago and I wouldn't expect to get too much more than that now.
While I agree with your rant about the stupid prices aspect of 70's instruments, I don't think you should generalize about them mostly being junk.
Lots more of these guitars exist today than other 70's products like the '76 Volare station wagon I once owned.
Now that was junk.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

People use the term "vintage" to allude to a lot of different things. What is it that changes with time?

1) The design. Eastwood and Di Pinto, and even Ibanez, attempt to make guitars that have the offbeat quirky features of the 60's era Teiscos, Kays, and such. There are some things which were, for whatever reasons, cool and common 40-50 years ago, but which are uncommon now. That's not only the electronics and such, but the body design; the weird and wonderful like teardrop, or "flying wing".

2) The materials. Some woods are not available anymore. Some woods which continue to be available are not available with the same properties, or else take several decades to acquire certain properties. The same may or may not be true of pickups and magnets.

3) The workmanship. Some things they just don't put the time and effort into...at least for the prices they used to charge for that way back when.

4) Sentimental historical associations. Like "the same guitar that so and so used to play".

If there is nothing particularly special about any of these 4, then it isn't really "vintage" in my books. That's not to knock anything, though. If a 1987 LP does not have anything unique about its design, the materials, or quality of workmanship, and it looks like every other LP from that decade, then it isn't "vintage" just because its 23 years old.

To all of this I will also mention that older pieces can be changed over time with respect to how faithfully they document or reflect a particular period. I have a mid-1960's Epiphone Coronet, which I have shamelessly modded over the years. It is old, but is it "vintage"? Not any more.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Let's see, is it "vintage, classic, rare, collectable, etc." if it's old? Nope, it's just old. If you're selling it, it suddenly becomes "vintage, classic etc." and you ask whatever price you want to ask and that price might or might not reflect the true value of the item. And either someone buys it or not. Book values, appraisles, msrp's etc. are just someones opinon of what they think it might be worth. And to compare something made years ago with something made today is just crap. To many things have changed over the years. 
But, if so many Fenders and Gibsons from the 70's and 80's were garbage, why did so many people play them when they were new and there were a lot of other good guitars out there? And still play them. 
I've never personally sat down and played an original 70's Strat and then plugged a 2010 Strat, that's set up the same way, into the same amp to compare them. Would they sound the same? Don't know. The last Fender Strat I played was a '67.....in 1967. My oldest guitar is a 1964 Kent Polaris II, my newest is a 2009 Peavey JFXI. 6 of the other 10 are from the mid 70's to the early 80's. Is there a Fender or Gibson in the bunch.....no. Are any of them garbage? Not to me. Do I play "professionally"? Nope, I play for my own enjoyment and it helps with my aching hands. Have I payed more for any of my guitars than some might think they're worth? Well, $50 for the Kent and $80 for the '69 Canora Archtop might be more than they're considered to be worth but they're "vintage, classic, rare and collectable". And sometimes they sound good and sometimes they don't. Would I pay what people are asking for and early Fender, Gibson or other well known brand of guitar? No, they're too expensive and my wife would have a thing or two to say about it. But on the other hand I'd pay more than that for say a 1949 Harley Panhead or a 1954 Servicar with no questions asked. Those are vintage, rare, classic and collectable. 
There, I've got that off my chest so now I'll go turn on my '69 Traynor amp, plug in my Hondo or maybe the Profile Black Magic and mangle a few chords for a while.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

the same thing can be said about "lawsuit" guitars...when i first got interested in guitars...there were all these offshore copies...ibanez...el degas...granada...mann...they were...and still are...crap...

everyone replaced the crap tuners with schaellers or grovers...or changed out the pickups for dimarzios etc...nobody could afford a "real" guitar...ie) fender...gibson...

fast forward 20 years...all these kijiji ads pop up..."rare"..."vintage"..."lawsuit era" ..."highly sought after by collectors"...pieces of crap that we were glad to get rid of when we could finally afford the real deal...

as soon as the prices for the "real" vintage guitars became out of reach for the average joe...a "new" vintage market arose for those guitarists that would like to boast of owning a vintage guitar...but would never be able to afford a "real" one...

using marketing buzzwords to draw in guitar newcomers...this was done to jack up the prices of all the crappy copies...it's kinda like demanding high prices for a piece of crap hundai pony...no matter how old or shiney it is...it's still crap...always will be...


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## demon (Feb 20, 2006)

IMO Gibson's really suffered the most in the Norlin years. Strats, for example, were still alder or ash and lightweight resonant examples could still be found. Aside from the flyswatter headstock and the 3-bolt necks, they never changed that much. The bullet truss rod was a good idea. Les pauls however...pancake bodies, short neck tenons, boat-anchor weight, and (generally) a very dull non-resonant unplugged tone, which translates into an fair amplified tone at best. Also, most people play through a ton of effects, or with with tons of gain, which basically ruins a guitar's voice, so you may as well a $250 LP copy.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

My Norlin has a very nice unplugged tone.
The best of all my electrics.
But it may be an exception.

And so are other Norlins I've played.

I've actually played more good Norlins than bad.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Dude..i have to strongly DISAGREE...First, ibanez never made guitars. second, degas either, those are ALL brand names given to guitars in early 70's that were bought from Japan's Fudjisen Factory, and then resold. some models like the LP, Strat and even Explorers and V were as good if not BETTER then what gibson and Fender was doing at the time. why do you think they shot them down?...i've had the chance to try a lot of models and my god, i was blown away. i'm always on the lookout for those on the used market cause they are total GEMS. 



jimihendrix said:


> the same thing can be said about "lawsuit" guitars...when i first got interested in guitars...there were all these offshore copies...ibanez...el degas...granada...mann...they were...and still are...crap...
> 
> everyone replaced the crap tuners with schaellers or grovers...or changed out the pickups for dimarzios etc...nobody could afford a "real" guitar...ie) fender...gibson...
> 
> ...


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Dont worry, the time is coming when all guitars will be labeled irrelevant junk, even the so called vintage classics..............


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## Hammertone (Feb 3, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Dont worry, the time is coming when all guitars will be labeled irrelevant junk, even the so called vintage classics..............


Exactly - like Tiffany lamps, which look archaic and stupid. New lamps are way better built, more energy efficient and do a better job at lighting.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Well, hopefully when guitars become irrelevant I'll have been dead for a long time. And new doesn't mean better......give me a Tiffany lamp anytime. The new, cheap lamps last maybe 2 years max. The new, energy efficiant bulbs are no better. Just depends on how long they've been on and where they are placed. And I agree with Relic Addict.....the old guitars for the most part are as good and in some cases better than the new ones. And as far as the new guitars go, you think Fender and Gibson have a monopoly on the "best wood and parts"? Doubt it. That's like saying Hundai's are "crap" and Kia's are good. But Relic Addict is wrong about Ibanez. They used to make guitars in Spain years ago before the factory burnt down and the name got bought up. Oh well, if we lived in the same area we'd probably be trying to buy the same, old guitars. No matter what the name on the headstock says. If the neck is straight and the body isn't cracked....too much and all the parts are original. But then, I'm old and my cell phone, when I use it, only makes phone calls. No internet, no camera, no mp3 player. 'nuff said.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Accept2 said:


> Dont worry, the time is coming when all guitars will be labeled irrelevant junk, even the so called vintage classics..............



At that time, if not before, I will also be labeled irrelevant junk, because I will still be playing guitar.
(And maybe for other reasons...):rockon2:


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

You guys are funny. I just happen to be an old guy who loves 'vintage' stuff...whether we're talking cars, furniture, bikes, guitars, amps, music, etc. That is not to say that I don't like newer stuff, but I appreciate interesting older things.

Is a 1954 Harley 'Police Special' really a great bike, worth more than a brand spanking new BMW? In a word - No. Is it intrinsically a better bike than a Soviet-built Ural bike? Maybe, but there definitely isn't as much of a quality difference as is reflected in the price. Is a 1967 Jaguar E-Type convertible really a better car than a 1967 Alfa Romeo Duetto Spider? It may be a little bit faster, but the ridiculous difference in the market prices make the Alfa seem like a real bargain. Is a vintage pre-CBS Strat really that much of a better guitar than a modern Chinese or Korean copy? Is it possible that a cheap 1969 Teisco ET-100 actually sounds great and plays very well...and that is why it is held in high regard by some collectors?

Of course we expect a Ferrari to be of better quality and to go faster than a Mustang GT. Get into both of these cars and you will definitely see and feel a big difference! But, they are both fun to drive, fast, powerful and great-looking road machines. Is that difference really worth over $200k? And in the end, there are lots of people who love older Mustangs and can afford them. Are they vintage? Of course they are! 

So, is a great condition, interesting pre-CBS Strat really worth upwards of $20K? Is a cheaply-built '60s Japanese 'Domino' really worth $300...and is it 'vintage'? Hell yes! I LOVE playing mine...it's quirky, cheap sound makes for some great 'surf' music twang! Is that Strat really worth that much more? Nope. My advice? Don't get caught up in the hype about old Fenders, Gibsons, Martins, etc. They are now WAAAAAAY over-priced. There are plenty of great guitars and also plenty of bad ones with whatever brand name. Play them all as if you have a blindfold on...you may be surprised.

Vintage? It, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Cheers,
Alex
(A noob here, but not a noob to guitars, collecting, or life in general)


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Well, I happen to think the '54 Harley Police Special is a better bike than the BMW but that's my choice. And, if the Harley breaks down at the side of the road you can usually fix it. Try that with your new Beamer. But I agree with you about the hype. When I bought it last week my late 60's Kent hollowbody sounded as good as some of the newer Gibsons in the store. For a lot less money. Is it vintage? As vintage as my '64 Kent and my other pre 1970 guitars. Would I trade them for the pre CBS Strat? Nope, I don't think the strat is worth it. But, that is also my choice. 
And yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and there is beauty everywhere.


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## sneakypete (Feb 2, 2006)

al3d said:


> Dude..i have to strongly DISAGREE...First, ibanez never made guitars. second, degas either, those are ALL brand names given to guitars in early 70's that were bought from Japan's Fudjisen Factory, and then resold. some models like the LP, Strat and even Explorers and V were as good if not BETTER then what gibson and Fender was doing at the time. why do you think they shot them down?...i've had the chance to try a lot of models and my god, i was blown away. i'm always on the lookout for those on the used market cause they are total GEMS.



Hard to say for sure since there were literally dozens of brands at one point in Japan. Just who made what is still not always very clear, theres a lot of stuff on line about it all but just how much is accurate ... I`m not sure. No doubt Japan exported a LOT of crap when I was a kid but after arriving here in Japan and looking around I have come to the conclusion they must have exported low end stuff and kept the good stuff at home because I now own old MIJs from as early as 1948 and my Yamaha Dynamic nylon strings from the early 1950s to the mid 1969s when they went out of production are great guitars and at the time they were certainly not cheap. So there was tons of low end models... surprisingly a lot has survived to this day...and there was high end stuff. Not sure about Fudjisen...but I do own several Fuji-gen made guitars from the mid `70s to the present day and they certainly made some great guitars...still do...but thats not to say everything they made was great. The cheap models were priced that way for a reason.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Electraglide said:


> Well, I happen to think the '54 Harley Police Special is a better bike than the BMW but that's my choice. And, if the Harley breaks down at the side of the road you can usually fix it. Try that with your new Beamer. But I agree with you about the hype. When I bought it last week my late 60's Kent hollowbody sounded as good as some of the newer Gibsons in the store. For a lot less money. Is it vintage? As vintage as my '64 Kent and my other pre 1970 guitars. Would I trade them for the pre CBS Strat? Nope, I don't think the strat is worth it. But, that is also my choice.
> And yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and there is beauty everywhere.


Hey Electraglide, I hear ya! The '54 is a great bike, but like the pre-CBS Strat, it is now priced waaaaay beyond its actual intrinsic value when compared to other vintage bikes. Although it is a great ride (I had one, and I DO love them), I think you will agree that it is (in stock form) a less powerful, less comfortable, less reliable machine than many other bikes. But that doesn't make it less desirable! That old, easy to fix, simple technology and the 'look' and 'feel' that can't (and shouldn't) be replicated give older Harleys a special cache...pretty much just like a pre-66 Strat. But...that doesn't mean that a '69 Triumph Bonneville or an old Laverda or a Norton 750 Commando, or even an original Honda 750 or Kawasaki 900 aren't "Vintage", which furthers your point about your Kent hollowbody, my Univox 'Coily', my Hagstrom I or my Teisco Del Ray ET-110 (as just a few examples).

So, getting back to the original poster's (OP) argument: Please folks, don't be 'snobs'. The Gruhns in Nashville and the Burst brothers and others are trying to perpetuate a myth that only select old Gibsons, Fenders, Martins and the like are worthy of collecting...and that they are the only older guitars worth playing. They are doing that because that's how they make their money. 

A vintage guitar definition in Wikipedia reads: "an old guitar usually sought after and maintained by avid collectors. Musicians and dealers commonly claim that older guitars have superior craftsmanship to modern mass-produced ones. Besides the considered better sound quality because of the craftsmanship it also is considered a safe money investment."

That is pretty much how it plays out, but it ain't necessarily so. Frankly, I just love interesting and 'fun to play' guitars of any age. And if some of them can make some money for my kids when I am gone, even better!

Go out and try some of those older Japanese, Swedish, Italian and other guitars. If you are realistic, you will find that many (but not all - there ARE lots of dogs out there!) lesser brands feel, sound and play as well or better than some of the big name (and big buck) guitars.

Oh, and Electraglide...Ride On!

Cheers,
Alex


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## fret15 (Feb 17, 2006)

Alex Csank said:


> You guys are funny. I just happen to be an old guy who loves 'vintage' stuff...whether we're talking cars, furniture, bikes, guitars, amps, music, etc. That is not to say that I don't like newer stuff, but I appreciate interesting older things.
> 
> Is a 1954 Harley 'Police Special' really a great bike, worth more than a brand spanking new BMW? In a word - No. Is it intrinsically a better bike than a Soviet-built Ural bike? Maybe, but there definitely isn't as much of a quality difference as is reflected in the price. Is a 1967 Jaguar E-Type convertible really a better car than a 1967 Alfa Romeo Duetto Spider? It may be a little bit faster, but the ridiculous difference in the market prices make the Alfa seem like a real bargain. Is a vintage pre-CBS Strat really that much of a better guitar than a modern Chinese or Korean copy? Is it possible that a cheap 1969 Teisco ET-100 actually sounds great and plays very well...and that is why it is held in high regard by some collectors?
> 
> ...


To me, this answers every question or comment regarding the myth or legend or fact of this entire deal. Well done! I just might copy and paste for any further commentary down the line....couldn't have said it better!


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Well Alex, I disagree with you about the Harley but then I'm a hardtail, kickstart biker from way back. If my knees would still take it I'd still have my chop but they won't so I ride a 2000 glide now. Damned thing even has a stereo. Aside from that, like Fret15 says, Well done and well said. And now I'm going to plug one of my "cheap" old guitars into my tube amp and relive what I can remember of the 60's. The weather is supposed to be sunny this weekend so the bikes (my wife rides a 2005 Deluxe) will come out of the garage and I know where there's a '56 pan and a '57 servicar for sale.....might just have to make room in the shop. If not then I know where there's another Kent. 
Point the front wheel and go until it's time to turn around and come back.


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

Now you want to see some real vintage garbage and for shame that iit is being sold here in Canada as something valuable.
Vintage 1950's Acoustic 6 String PALM BEACH Guitar - eBay (item 320566083861 end time Aug-23-10 08:32:07 PDT)[
The seller claims that the owner was told that it was valuable to the tune of $3,000.00 since when is a painted Harmony ever worth that much, now this is the extreme of just becuase its older we should get lots of money syndrome.ship


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## CAMARO68 (Feb 24, 2006)

I my opinion there's no garbage year for a guitar. Pick up a guitar, any guitar, if it feels good, plays and sounds good in your hands than that's all that really matters.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Truth said.


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## JimiGuy7 (Jan 10, 2008)

Some of you guys have taken this in a wierd direction. Norlins being your favorite and what not, cool. That is YOUR opinion, and yes I have played quite a few of the so called "garbage" era Fender's and Gibsons and really liked them. The point I was trying to get across is that some people are realistic about what they have and the price they stick to it and some are so out to lunch that it angers me. I actually just started this thread because I was in the market for something, well we will just say old, and was so sick when I started to see the sky high prices on some of these guitars that are so not worth what people are asking for them. I am a firm believer in book value for anything, I don't care what it is worth to you, what matters to me is what it is actually worth. I don't mean to call your guitars garbage or knock something you love, I just hate the fact that people think they can charge an obscene amount of money for something that is not worth it. So I said, f**k it, and bought myself a brand new R8 and could'nt be happier.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

You know what? People will say anything and consequently, charge whatever they like for their gear. I agree that in some cases I find myself chuckling and shaking my head in disbelief BUT that's their right. They can charge whatever they want. It's really up to the buyer to educate themselves as to true value. No matter what the item, some people are going to tell you whatever it takes to try to convince you to buy it. It's unfortunate that people aren't more diligent when buying stuff. It's helped spawn a thriving business in counterfeit guitars....



JimiGuy7 said:


> Some of you guys have taken this in a wierd direction. Norlins being your favorite and what not, cool. That is YOUR opinion, and yes I have played quite a few of the so called "garbage" era Fender's and Gibsons and really liked them. The point I was trying to get across is that some people are realistic about what they have and the price they stick to it and some are so out to lunch that it angers me. I actually just started this thread because I was in the market for something, well we will just say old, and was so sick when I started to see the sky high prices on some of these guitars that are so not worth what people are asking for them. I am a firm believer in book value for anything, I don't care what it is worth to you, what matters to me is what it is actually worth. I don't mean to call your guitars garbage or knock something you love, I just hate the fact that people think they can charge an obscene amount of money for something that is not worth it. So I said, f**k it, and bought myself a brand new R8 and could'nt be happier.


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## JimiGuy7 (Jan 10, 2008)

nonreverb said:


> You know what? People will say anything and consequently, charge whatever they like for their gear. I agree that in some cases I find myself chuckling and shaking my head in disbelief BUT that's their right. They can charge whatever they want. It's really up to the buyer to educate themselves as to true value. No matter what the item, some people are going to tell you whatever it takes to try to convince you to buy it. It's unfortunate that people aren't more diligent when buying stuff. It's helped spawn a thriving business in counterfeit guitars....


I totally agree with you. I just hate the fact that people can be so stubborn even when shown what they have is'nt worth what they are asking for it. I blame ebay for the rising cost of said "vintage" guitars and the ever increasing counterfeit market.


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## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

RE: "Pre-CBS" , I'm a former Pre-CBS owner, & have a recent posting in the AmpTech forum, which I recommend you read before you get an attitude from what I have to say here.

It is my belief that the "revolution" began when middle-to-high profile guitar players in "name-brand" bands started throwing some serious money out to collect some oldies in order to fill out their collections. It was a fetish. These guys are the thin, upper-layer who make good money as full-time musicians - the guys that are interviewed in guitar mags.
Next step is the thicker, middle-layer, who _read_ the mags, and selectively aspire to emulate various personal heroes. They try and follow the footsteps of their chosen heroes, and seek out similar old models, believing in all that mojo crap that the mag articles publish. Now the market grows way-bigger - only problem is, what was chump-change for Page or Beck, is major savings for the unwashed masses. It's true that Epay fuels the fire by allowing easy access from everyone's browser at home or work.
Initially this market believes that owning the same model-vintage instruments as their heroes will short-step them into playing and sounding just like them - _really?_

Once they "buy-in" to the vintage stuff, they justify the expenditure by quoting the mojo nonsense to anyone who challenges them. It's natural to justify one's interests and acquisitions - we all do it. As a matter of fact, there is great value in collecting and preserving our past, but leave the mojo with the leprechauns. Money aside, I would *not* trade my '10 Custom Shop for my (former) '59 strat.
Also, IMHO, there are TONS of misconceptions about, and coincidentally, in favour of "vintage" amps as well - Hint: Aren't they sharing the same engineering/technology as vintage TV's? Wanna watch a '62 Electrohome 21" ?

Summing up the "vintage bubble": I was there! The Emperor has NO CLOTHES!

Bill


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

nonreverb and Jimiguy7...I agree with BOTH of you.

...and J-75...I think that you are right too but one of the things that make the old ones 'worth more' is the relatively small numbers that were produced. Somewhat like the old hockey cards - it matters who (what) it is but the big factor is that the production numbers were low.


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## Randall Moyle (Nov 21, 2010)

One problem is the word vintage. It originally dealt with wine, and it somehow morphed into a term used for certain desirable antiquities and collectibles within a specific era. It really is a misnomer.

****

The high prices paid for old guitars often have little relationship with how well a guitar was made or how well it sounds, or even rarity. It has everything to do with how much a buyer will pay for it.

Let's assume you have a hand made guitar from 1930 that was meticulously made by a skilled but obscure luthier that sounds like a call from heaven. If you place it on the market, it would likely sell for a comparatively lower value when matched against an overvalued production line electric that is in high demand by speculators and collectors. The rarity, workmanship and sound quality are factors, but not enough to bring in the big bucks. We have to understand that many collectors are not skilled players, but in fact people who play the market for collectibles, and are looking to resell for a profit. Some are used as status symbols or even mounted on walls as part of the decor.

Also consider that what may sound good to one player, may sound cheap and gritty to another. And then others just don't care. They just want to own a certain model or "need" one for their collection.


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