# Help with my setup



## Copolii (Feb 1, 2007)

So I just got my CS-3 off ebay and its not exactly what I expected.
turning 'Attack' or 'Sustain' up more than about 40% creates a wierd tone while I'm playing (sort of like rattling a thin fence).
What's worse is that the pedal HAS TO BE ON if I wanna get a heavy tone out of either the MT-2 or the DDM pedals (otherwise I get VERY LITTLE distortion). If I take the CS-3 out of the circuit completely, they both have their own kickass sound.
This is my setup:

















I was hoping for a Mettalica'ish kinda sound and the MT-2 and DDM got very close ... but it's still missing something (and i cant put my finger on it).
my questions:

If I could add one and only one more pedal to my setup, what would you recommend?
Is there a better way for me to connect this setup (this is according to the example in the NS-2 manual)?
If I was to mod these pedals, what would you recommend?
 Is modding generally a good idea (I do have decent wiring and soldering experience)?
 I've heard the CS-3 has very good modding potential, but I don't know which one to go for.
 There are 50 million mods for the MT-2, which one do you have and how do you like it?
 can the NS-2 be modded and how different is the modded version?

I've done my research, but nobody is gonna say "Here, I made a mod for the MT-2 and it's crap" ... besides ... nothing can replace experience :rockon2:


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## Kapo_Polenton (Jun 20, 2007)

I don't think the MT-2 can ever sound good lol! The best it ever sounded for me was over 15 years ago when i played it through a stereo system and speakers. I think that digitech pedal you have next to it is the way to go.. I like their pedal line for the heavy thrash stuff. Check out monte allums mods for mt-2 stuff. Good to get a sense of what you are looking for. 

edited this next part as i realised you were running a compressor.. generally i thought the rule was to run those after distortion and overdrive.. then again, "rules" are not set in stone where tone is concerned. I also think you should just run that noise supressor right at the end.Give it a go.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Kapo_Polenton is right about the NS-2, put it after the distortion effects. I put mine between my OD and distortions, but before my delay, but since you're not running a delay, I would have it last. I think the FX loop in the NS-2 is silly and not really a good feature, it's just one of those selling points that makes the pedal seem like more than it is. 

As for the compressor, you've got it in the right place, right up front. Some people might run it before the wah, but I run might right after the wah and I don't have any problems with it.

The problems you're having with the level of gain have more to do with your settings than with anything else. Once you take the gain pedals out of the FX loop and stick them between the CS-2 and NS-2, that should solve some of your problems.

Finally, compressor is, in my experience, one of the finickiest pedals to get right. I'm running a Dyna Comp and it took me a while before I found a setting that I really, really liked. Use the examples in your manual as guidelines, but try to find something that works for you. Also, it's hard to get a compressor to sound good with OD or distortion. Compressors tend to be used more with light OD or clean sounds. Which isn't to say it's impossible, or a bad idea. Once I got my Dyna Comp goosed just the right way, it started to sound great with my TS-9. Keep fiddlin' and you'll find the sweet spot.


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## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

Check out the Indyguitarist mods for the MT-2, they actually turn it into a fairly useable pedal. The nasally mids are controlled, and it doesn't sound bad at all.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

hollowbody said:


> Kapo_Polenton is right about the NS-2, put it after the distortion effects. I put mine between my OD and distortions, but before my delay, but since you're not running a delay, I would have it last. I think the FX loop in the NS-2 is silly and not really a good feature, it's just one of those selling points that makes the pedal seem like more than it is.


Actually, I would strongly disagree with you. The single toughest job of a noise-reduction device is telling the difference between noise and signal, and the easiest point in the signal path to accomplish that task is at the outset. Once you start adding high gain devices to the mixture, a) the level of the noise coming from the guitar gets boosted and b) the natural compression created by clipping devices reduces the contrast between signal and noise.

Having said that, it is next to impossible to have a "pure" noise-free signal coming out of a succession of high-gain pedals, so there is a natural urge to want to stick the noise-reduction pedal at the end of the chain to clean things up. However, because of what I note above, such noise-cleaning pedals have to be used in a heavy-handed way at that point if you want them to take care of all "audio sins", and that results in an intrusive quality. The noise-reduction pedal may chop of the initial pick attack, the last part of the decay, or both, and if you lighten up to preserve both those parts of the actual signal, you're stuck back with most of the noise you were trying to get rid of. For that reason, I recommend use of TWO noise-reduction pedals: a gate for cutting hum and hiss at the input, and a noise filter like the NS-2 for cutting hiss at the output. because the first one is dealing with less audio grime at that point, it can be used in a light-handed way with a very low turn-on threshold. Because it has done some of the cleanup such that there is no hiss to boost in your distortion pedals, the NS-2 can be used in a fairly light-handed way as well. That combination should provide a less intrusive approach to keeping noise out of the way.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

mhammer said:


> Actually, I would strongly disagree with you. The single toughest job of a noise-reduction device is telling the difference between noise and signal, and the easiest point in the signal path to accomplish that task is at the outset.


I understand the technical mumbo-jumbo regarding input noise being amplified, but I just found in my use that the NS-2 sound better after modulation effects and before delay in my chain. YMMV. 

I actually didn't like the pedal at all initially and was looking to get an ISP Decimator instead until...



mhammer said:


> such noise-cleaning pedals have to be used in a heavy-handed way at that point if you want them to take care of all "audio sins", and that results in an intrusive quality. The noise-reduction pedal may chop of the initial pick attack, the last part of the decay, or both, and if you lighten up to preserve both those parts of the actual signal.


...I decided to fiddle with the pedal. The NS-2 is incredibly sensitive to adjustments and after a while, I've found a setting that works for me. And yes, it involves turning the noise reduction threshold and amount down. 

As much as it sounds like voodoo-snake-oil, I actually like my tone BETTER with the NS-2 turned on than with it off. Who would think a buffered, electronic switch pedal could do this. Maybe I'm deaf, or just ignorant (both are STRONG possibilities), but I am not looking for a new shut-the-hell up pedal anymore.



mhammer said:


> For that reason, I recommend use of TWO noise-reduction pedals: a gate for cutting hum and hiss at the input, and a noise filter like the NS-2 for cutting hiss at the output.


I whole-heartedly agree, but some people don't have this luxury. If I found a decent gate for a good price, I would have this setup as well. But no dice so far. Also, Copolii's setup seems fairly minimal and no mention of budget was made, so I figured he could try this with his existing gear to see if it works for him (her? How un-PC of me to assume Copolii is a male because he plays metal and has a GC account...my apologies to all the female members of this forum!)

mhammer - what would you suggest in the way of a gate to go into first?


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## Kapo_Polenton (Jun 20, 2007)

Let me just say that the ISP decimator pedal is the $hit. Its simple yes, but its awesome. Its worth the extra $.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Kapo_Polenton said:


> Let me just say that the ISP decimator pedal is the $hit. Its simple yes, but its awesome. Its worth the extra $.


Dang, I feel some GAS coming on...and I promised my girlfriend I wouldn't buy any new gear til summer (and she doesn't know about the amp I'm buying on Saturday )


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## Evilmusician (Apr 13, 2007)

I bought a CS3 and never liked it noisy and made my bass strings sound thin and lifeless ,and you can't turn the sustain knob past half or its noisy as @%*# !the guys are right put the NS2 at the end of the chain ,are you running the NS2 as a power supply (daisychain) or seperate walwarts cuz the walwarts will add alot noise !:rockon:


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I got my buddy RG Keen, who landed himself a slot as chief engineer for Visual Sound, interested in the very idea of what I call "signal hygiene" products. I also got him interested in the idea of a two-fisted noise-reduction system/station such as I described, with different actions at the start and end. I have absolutely no idea whatsoever what will come of that interest. I mention it only to say that when companies start asking themselves "What can WE come up with that is an innovative product that will serve a niche that has not yet been adequately serviced?", they find ideas like this of interest.

Given how noise suppressors work, I can understand how, in some contexts, people might prefer the tone with the circuit on. Makes perfect sense to me, and is not really any different in my books than someone liking the tone of a volume pot that's a lower-than-stock value, or a slightly higher-capacitance curly cord from guitar to pedalboard. Sometimes, rounding off the edges is just what you need.

What pedal to recommend? Just about anything, really. My take on it is that when you need one pedal to do it all, the criteria for it being acceptable start to get fussy. When the workload is divided between two of them, you can live with much less from each pedal. So, if you use the first one to simply get rid of hum when you really and truly stop playing, you can afford to set the threshold really low, and you'll never really miss the attack and tail of the note so you don't need to futz around with how much attenuation, or decay times, etc. And if you haven't amplified residual noise by 500x with a distortion or other high-gain pedal, then you don't need quite as much dialability from the 2nd one. Keep in mind that pedals tend to be designed around the assumption that they have absolutely no idea where or how you are going to use the pedal. 

If you are in the mood or are up to a DIY build, there is a delightful little chip made by Analog Devices called the SSM2166 that you can order from the always-dependable Small Bear Electronics. Though the chip itself is a little pricey as chips go, the accompanying circuit (which you can find at Jack Orman's AMZ site - www.muzique.com ) is ridiculously simple and easy to build into a little box for under $40, all parts included. The SSM2166 is intended as a microphone strip chip. It provides excellent compression and limiting, and also includes downward expansion as its own internal noise-reduction system. It is an absolutely trivial exercise to build a little 4-knob box that gives you great compression with noise-reduction at the start of your signal chain. I'd be happy to step you through it if you decide to go that route.

Mark (that's what the M is for)


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## sproul07 (Jun 23, 2007)

Ya I would definatly put the NS-2 last. I use a Rocktron Hush II pedal with footswitchable thresholds and it does work well, but its only for home use. When you get out plaing with other people the hum gets covered up anyway. But the common mistake is that noise and hum comes from pedals, the pedals only amplify what you're guitar is sounding like, so if you're getting a serious hum problem to the point that you have to use a noise reduction pedal, then I would look into cutting down on the hum of your guitar. I.e sheilding etc. Just in the last 2 months that's been my main focus is getting to the bottom of unessessary noise and I found that getting my guitars properly shielded and grounded made a hell of a lot more difference than any noise reduction pedal


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## Copolii (Feb 1, 2007)

Thank you all for the responses.



> I also think you should just run that noise supressor right at the end.Give it a go.
> Reply With Quote


That was my setup initially, but the noise that the CS-3 generated was even louder than the noise suppressor's max treshold and all I get is noise. the current setup got rid of the humming noise.



> The problems you're having with the level of gain have more to do with your settings than with anything else. Once you take the gain pedals out of the FX loop and stick them between the CS-2 and NS-2, that should solve some of your problems.


So I did this .. Guitar-->NS2-->MT-2 --> DDM-->CS-3-->NS-2-->PC
and it sounds pretty good ... but i still have to run the NS-2 at a high treshold.



> are you running the NS2 as a power supply (daisychain) or seperate walwarts cuz the walwarts will add alot noise


I'm using the BOSS PSA-120 (I think) inside my pedal board and then using the daisy chain cable to feed the pedals.

Thanks alot for the replies guys ... I think I'll have to keep the NS-2 where it is ... otherwise the noise level is WAY too high ... 

I can turn down the treshold a bit more and only get a slight hiss ... and I think I can live with that ... maybe later get another noise gate and throw it between the Distortion pedals and the compressor?


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Copolii said:


> So I did this .. Guitar-->NS2-->MT-2 --> DDM-->CS-3-->NS-2-->PC
> and it sounds pretty good ... but i still have to run the NS-2 at a high treshold.


Wait a minute. When you're recording into your PC, is it noisy over your headphones? Have you tried this exact setup into an amp? It might be that you're picking up the noise your PC makes with all its fans and moving parts.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

mhammer said:


> If you are in the mood or are up to a DIY build, there is a delightful little chip made by Analog Devices called the SSM2166 that you can order from the always-dependable Small Bear Electronics. Though the chip itself is a little pricey as chips go, the accompanying circuit (which you can find at Jack Orman's AMZ site - www.muzique.com ) is ridiculously simple and easy to build into a little box for under $40, all parts included. The SSM2166 is intended as a microphone strip chip. It provides excellent compression and limiting, and also includes downward expansion as its own internal noise-reduction system. It is an absolutely trivial exercise to build a little 4-knob box that gives you great compression with noise-reduction at the start of your signal chain. I'd be happy to step you through it if you decide to go that route.


Sounds interesting. I read up on it and it seems like a neat little box, but I don't really have time for a build right now. If i decide to take it on, I'll drop you a PM


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## Copolii (Feb 1, 2007)

hollowbody said:


> Wait a minute. When you're recording into your PC, is it noisy over your headphones? Have you tried this exact setup into an amp? It might be that you're picking up the noise your PC makes with all its fans and moving parts.


I tried it with my amp too ... the buzz was there regardless of whether i used the amp or the PC. it sounds so much better on the PC though 
I think I (kinda) have it figured out ... I get very little hiss now ... I'd still like some more depth to my sound 
I have active EMG pickups (81/60) so I'm wondering if a preamp would give me that extra depth and where on the circuit i should put it?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

to the OP - what amp are you rockin?


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