# AstraZeneca, No thanks



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Ontario is considering not vaccinating anyone with AstraZeneca under the age of 55 due to health concerns. I'm 60 but I'm pretty healthy. I might be as healthy as most 55 year old's. So I probably shouldn't take a chance on this risky vaccine. Really I can't understand why anyone at any age would want to take a chance on the most controversial vaccine.



https://ca.yahoo.com/news/immunization-committee-recommend-provinces-suspend-170454290.html


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Ontario is considering not vaccinating anyone with AstraZeneca under the age of 55 due to health concerns. I'm 60 but I'm pretty healthy. I might be as healthy as most 55 year old's. So I probably shouldn't take a chance on this risky vaccine. Really I can't understand why anyone at any age would want to take a chance on the most controversial vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> https://ca.yahoo.com/news/immunization-committee-recommend-provinces-suspend-170454290.html


The issue is YOUNG WOMEN in the EU having clotting, the EU and AZ have looked at the data and dismissed it as statistical anomaly or some such. With that user name, I doubt you are at risk, though we have had the same conversation in this household for sure.

Just Health Canada being late to the party again? It's their info the provinces are working from, let's see what they have to say.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

Without getting political, it's the same old BS. Masks were not recommended for the general public, not because they weren't beneficial but because "they" wanted to protect the supply for the health care workers (OK cool, but tell us that don't BS). As soon as there's supply, everyone is supposed to wear a mask. 

Same with this vaccine - when it represents 75% of what's available, or is the easiest to transport, they recommend it despite what other countries are doing. Guaranteed if the supply of the other 2 vaccines were plentiful and it was easier to transport, no one would be getting this. There is no doubt in my mind this is a second class vaccine, but I also believe it is helpful in preventing death, probably much more often than it (possibly) causes it. 

The question is, do I risk getting COVID (a small percentage risk in Nov Scotia) and then also having a severe case (also a small percentage risk), or take the AZ vaccine (100% risk adopted once it's in your arm) and risk a poor outcome (probably a small risk).

That said, I'll probably get it if / when it is what is available. I hereby bequeath all my guitar picks to @davetcan


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

BlueRocker said:


> Without getting political, it's the same old BS. Masks were not recommended for the general public, not because they weren't beneficial but because "they" wanted to protect the supply for the health care workers (OK cool, but tell us that don't BS). As soon as there's supply, everyone is supposed to wear a mask.
> 
> Same with this vaccine - when it represents 75% of what's available, or is the easiest to transport, they recommend it despite what other countries are doing. Guaranteed if the supply of the other 2 vaccines were plentiful and it was easier to transport, no one would be getting this. There is no doubt in my mind this is a second class vaccine, but I also believe it is helpful in preventing death, probably much more often than it (possibly) causes it.
> 
> ...



Yes like all of a sudden its ok to have the moderna second dose 4 months after the first dose because they don't have any supply. I've been leaning away from getting the vaccine at all at least till I see more of what developments come up. But I think that I'd be willing to get the single dose Johnson and Johnson. And supposedly there's 10 million doses coming our way.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> Ontario is considering not vaccinating anyone with AstraZeneca under the age of 55 due to health concerns. I'm 60 but I'm pretty healthy. I might be as healthy as most 55 year old's. So I probably shouldn't take a chance on this risky vaccine. Really I can't understand why anyone at any age would want to take a chance on the most controversial vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> https://ca.yahoo.com/news/immunization-committee-recommend-provinces-suspend-170454290.html


It's just a scam. The Pfizer has had just as many blood clot cases as Astra-Zeneca, but do you hear about them in the news? Nope. Corporations own the news services.

Dr John


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

BlueRocker said:


> Without getting political, it's the same old BS. Masks were not recommended for the general public, not because they weren't beneficial but because "they" wanted to protect the supply for the health care workers (OK cool, but tell us that don't BS). As soon as there's supply, everyone is supposed to wear a mask.
> 
> Same with this vaccine - when it represents 75% of what's available, or is the easiest to transport, they recommend it despite what other countries are doing. Guaranteed if the supply of the other 2 vaccines were plentiful and it was easier to transport, no one would be getting this. There is no doubt in my mind this is a second class vaccine, but I also believe it is helpful in preventing death, probably much more often than it (possibly) causes it.
> 
> ...



I raised the size of what I am replying to, which is that numerous EU nations looked at the data, and reinstated usage after about 48 hours last week. What am I missing?


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

keto said:


> I raised the size of what I am replying to, which is that numerous EU nations looked at the data, and reinstated usage after about 48 hours last week. What am I missing?


you're missing 2 week old news. No wait, you didn't miss a thing. Someone else missed it.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Two people will report some sort of malfunction of a vehicle, assuming the flaw is inherent to the vehicle itself, and a major company will have to recall hundreds of thousands of vehicles. Here's a good lesson on how such things happen. Revisionist History Episode 08

At this point, there is little insight into anything about a) the specific batch/production-facility, b) the method by which the vaccine was administered (e.g., aspiration used or not?), and c) any specific risk factors common to the affected individuals. The pause was a better-safe-than-sorry and litigation-avoidance move.

I'll be in line to get whatever they're giving out when my eligibility comes up. And will continue to mask up, wash up, and distance, until the local case count hits the low double-digits...consistently. I'll consider the pandemic over when the case count drops to something we'd be comfortable with if it was polio, measles, TB, or malaria.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

LOL... your chance of having it happen randomly is actually higher (5 in a million) than the likelihood of it happening after taking the vaccine (0.9 in a million) and there is not a direct correction that has been discovered. This is much ado about nothing... I wonder how many people have been killed in a car accident after having the vaccine? ZOMG the vaccine causes fatal car accidents!!! This is just about as silly.


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

not to stray away from the comments, but pretty much all fast foods, and sugar based products are of far greater concern when it comes to developing blood clots. Also stationary sitting combined with lack of exercise is a blood clot enhancer as well

and if only the fast food industry was mandated to list all possible health concerns, just like the big pharma's...............


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

mhammer said:


> I'll be in line to get whatever they're giving out when my eligibility comes up. And will continue to mask up, wash up, and distance, until the local case count hits the low double-digits...consistently. I'll consider the pandemic over when the case count drops to something we'd be comfortable with if it was polio, measles, TB, or malaria.


Nice to see I'm not the only one left who feels this way. 

I am consistently amazed at how the younger generation does not understand how infectious diseases have been eliminated in the past.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

mhammer said:


> I'll be in line to get whatever they're giving out when my eligibility comes up. And will continue to mask up, wash up, and distance, until the local case count hits the low double-digits...consistently. I'll consider the pandemic over when the case count drops to something we'd be comfortable with if it was polio, measles, TB, or malaria.


This.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

gtrguy said:


> LOL... your chance of having it happen randomly is actually higher (5 in a million) than the likelihood of it happening after taking the vaccine (0.9 in a million) and there is not a direct correction that has been discovered. This is much ado about nothing... I wonder how many people have been killed in a car accident after having the vaccine? ZOMG the vaccine causes fatal car accidents!!! This is just about as silly.


I think the initial pause was prudent. After all, if there is some risk factor to be on the lookout for, that IS something you want to know about up front. What has been dumb is the panic, vaccine hesitancy it provoked, in spite of no identified connection.

Human risk-perception is a many-splendored and frail thing.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

dgreen said:


> not to stray away from the comments, but pretty much all fast foods, and sugar based products are of far greater concern when it comes to developing blood clots. Also stationary sitting combined with lack of exercise is a blood clot enhancer as well
> 
> and if only the fast food industry was mandated to list all possible health concerns, just like the big pharma's...............


I love this comment so much. Refined sugar, the real #1 mother€%#€er


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

tdotrob said:


> I love this comment so much. Refined sugar, the real #1 mother€%#€er


More and more of an issue for me as I cross gradually into type 2 diabetes.

Sugar makes me sick, and loving it doesn't help.


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## YaReMi (Mar 9, 2006)

mhammer said:


> I'll be in line to get whatever they're giving out when my eligibility comes up. And will continue to mask up, wash up, and distance, until the local case count hits the low double-digits...consistently. I'll consider the pandemic over when the case count drops to something we'd be comfortable with if it was polio, measles, TB, or malaria.


Yes, yes, yes ...!


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

keto said:


> I raised the size of what I am replying to, which is that numerous EU nations looked at the data, and reinstated usage after about 48 hours last week. What am I missing?


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

comforting to see that even Canada's knee-jerk reactions are two weeks late.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

BlueRocker said:


> View attachment 357850



Sorry, I missed highlighing a few words, and _it looks like_ you just contradicted yourself. 

"they recommend it despite what other countries are doing", you said in reference to the vaccine. OK, what now? I'm missing your point. Right now, we are pulling away while everyone else is OK with it.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Milkman said:


> More and more of an issue for me as I cross gradually into type 2 diabetes.
> 
> Sugar makes me sick, and loving it doesn't help.


Oh man I feel you and am in the exact same boat. I KNOW how bad it makes me feel but yet.....
The book Why We Get Fat by Gary Taubbs is a great read on the subject.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

keto said:


> Sorry, I missed highlighing a few words, and _it looks like_ you just contradicted yourself.
> 
> "they recommend it despite what other countries are doing", you said in reference to the vaccine. OK, what now? I'm missing your point. Right now, we are pulling away while everyone else is OK with it.


My point is, we're not having this discussion about any of the other vaccines. IMO, where there's smoke there's fire. I continue to believe that AZ is second rate. Given the choice, I'd take something else. Given no choice, I'd take it over nothing.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

BlueRocker said:


> My point is, we're not having this discussion about any of the other vaccines. IMO, where there's smoke there's fire. I continue to believe that AZ is second rate. Given the choice, I'd take something else. Given no choice, I'd take it over nothing.


Interesting. Would you be willing to share what is out there for information that leads you to believe this?


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## Jim Wellington (Sep 3, 2017)

Lincoln said:


> I am consistently amazed at how the younger generation does not understand how infectious diseases have been eliminated in the past.


Yeah...hygiene and indoor plumbing for example. Not having to breathe disease microbes from feces and urine(bed pans and buckets) along with the ability to wash, especially your hands, in hot water. A considerable amount of North America(especially rural) was still installing indoor plumbing in the early 60`s. With vaccines making the scene at the same time, it might not be a straight forward proposition to determine just how effective each were on their own. It`s undisputable that both count however.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

tdotrob said:


> Interesting. Would you be willing to share what is out there for information that leads you to believe this?


Without directly attributing a source (and with the chance of error of memory):

1. It's efficacy rate in preventing COVID 19 in clinical trials was in the area of 65%, compared to 90%+ of the "big two"
2. Blood clots - EU councties stop, then start using it. Health Canada recommendations changing almost daily. As far as I can tell, as of today only people 55-64 years old are recommended to take it (my age group). If anyone bothered to read the CBC news article today, this is not about the prevalence of blood clots compared to the background noise of what you would expect in the general population. It's about a specific and rare type of blood clot that prevents blood from draining from your brain.
3. Just the fact that we're having this discussion on a guitar forum would indicate I'm not alone in considering if this is safe and worthwhile.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

BlueRocker said:


> Without directly attributing a source (and with the chance of error of memory):
> 
> 1. It's efficacy rate in preventing COVID 19 in clinical trials was in the area of 65%, compared to 90%+ of the "big two"
> 2. Blood clots - EU councties stop, then start using it. Health Canada recommendations changing almost daily. As far as I can tell, as of today only people 55-64 years old are recommended to take it (my age group). If anyone bothered to read the CBC news article today, this is not about the prevalence of blood clots compared to the background noise of what you would expect in the general population. It's about a specific and rare type of blood clot that prevents blood from draining from your brain.
> 3. Just the fact that we're having this discussion on a guitar forum would indicate I'm not alone in considering if this is safe and worthwhile.


Ok thanks!


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Jim Wellington said:


> Yeah...hygiene and indoor plumbing for example. Not having to breathe disease microbes from feces and urine(bed pans and buckets) along with the ability to wash, especially your hands, in hot water. A considerable amount of North America(especially rural) was still installing indoor plumbing in the early 60`s. With vaccines making the scene at the same time, it might not be a straight forward proposition to determine just how effective each were on their own. It`s undisputable that both count however.


I know some won't believe it but that's very true.
We got septic and water to the house in 1972. Before that it was a hand pump well 50 feet south of the house, and an outhouse 50 feet north of the house. And we were not the last farm to move out the settlers log house built in 1905.
Also, people still knew friends or relatives first hand that were affected by polio and measles. When vaccines came out for those it was not turned down.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

BlueRocker said:


> Without directly attributing a source (and with the chance of error of memory):
> 
> 1. It's efficacy rate in preventing COVID 19 in clinical trials was in the area of 65%, compared to 90%+ of the "big two"
> 2. Blood clots - EU councties stop, then start using it. Health Canada recommendations changing almost daily. As far as I can tell, as of today only people 55-64 years old are recommended to take it (my age group). If anyone bothered to read the CBC news article today, this is not about the prevalence of blood clots compared to the background noise of what you would expect in the general population. It's about a specific and rare type of blood clot that prevents blood from draining from your brain.
> 3. Just the fact that we're having this discussion on a guitar forum would indicate I'm not alone in considering if this is safe and worthwhile.


Part of the error is that they are comparing current numbers of this "brain drain" to numbers obtained in a pre-covid world. No current numbers exist, and the covid virus just happens to cause the same condition. So really, they have no data, and no clue. The rest of the world is using it again. Canada as always is embarrassingly slow to respond.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

tdotrob said:


> Oh man I feel you and am in the exact same boat. I KNOW how bad it makes me feel but yet.....
> The book Why We Get Fat by Gary Taubbs is a great read on the subject.


I’ll check that out thanks.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Jim Wellington said:


> Yeah...hygiene and indoor plumbing for example. Not having to breathe disease microbes from feces and urine(bed pans and buckets) along with the ability to wash, especially your hands, in hot water. A considerable amount of North America(especially rural) was still installing indoor plumbing in the early 60`s. With vaccines making the scene at the same time, it might not be a straight forward proposition to determine just how effective each were on their own. It`s undisputable that both count however.


you must be a plumber. That's what they get taught in first year.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

tomee2 said:


> I know some won't believe it but that's very true.
> We got septic and water to the house in 1972. Before that it was a hand pump well 50 feet south of the house, and an outhouse 50 feet north of the house. And we were not the last farm to move out the settlers log house built in 1905.
> Also, people still knew friends or relatives first hand that were affected by polio and measles. When vaccines came out for those it was not turned down.


This was my exact experience, although I think we got our (blue) toilet and bathtub in 1971 - I was 6. I used to get tested for TB as a kid because so many of my family members had it through the years.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

gtrguy said:


> LOL... your chance of having it happen randomly is actually higher (5 in a million) than the likelihood of it happening after taking the vaccine (0.9 in a million) and there is not a direct correction that has been discovered. This is much ado about nothing... I wonder how many people have been killed in a car accident after having the vaccine? ZOMG the vaccine causes fatal car accidents!!! This is just about as silly.



Yeah the likelihood of getting the blood clots is really low. Like if you had a hundred guns infront of you and one of them had a bullet in it. Would you play the odds of russian roulette. Likely you wouldn't shoot your self.
What gets me is there is absolutely no accountability for the pharma companies. There is no liability they have to worry about. The only ones with anything to lose is us.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

gtrguy said:


> LOL... your chance of having it happen randomly is actually higher (5 in a million) than the likelihood of it happening after taking the vaccine (0.9 in a million) and there is not a direct correction that has been discovered. This is much ado about nothing... I wonder how many people have been killed in a car accident after having the vaccine? ZOMG the vaccine causes fatal car accidents!!! This is just about as silly.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-suspends-astrazeneca-vaccine-covid-19-1.5968657

_*Dr. Isaac Bogoch, an infectious diseases physician and member of Ontario's COVID-19 vaccine task force said that the discovery of a potential connection with the vaccine to blood clots raised a "red flag" that "warrants further exploration." *_


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

Don’t be afraid. All of the people I know who go the AstraZeneca shot are fine, and extremely happy they got something that allows them to move on with life. My wife and I also got that shot. We are weeks to months ahead of others, by accepting that shot.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

BlueRocker said:


> Without directly attributing a source (and with the chance of error of memory):
> 
> 1. It's efficacy rate in preventing COVID 19 in clinical trials was in the area of 65%, compared to 90%+ of the "big two"
> 2. Blood clots - EU councties stop, then start using it. Health Canada recommendations changing almost daily. As far as I can tell, as of today only people 55-64 years old are recommended to take it (my age group). If anyone bothered to read the CBC news article today, this is not about the prevalence of blood clots compared to the background noise of what you would expect in the general population. It's about a specific and rare type of blood clot that prevents blood from draining from your brain.
> 3. Just the fact that we're having this discussion on a guitar forum would indicate I'm not alone in considering if this is safe and worthwhile.


Now, do you know HOW those "efficacy rates" are calculated? And do you know what they refer to?

I remind you that there are currently no "human challenge" trials completed. There are apparently some underway in the UK, but understandably, it can take a while to gather volunteers who know they are going to be injected with a known quanta of virus (AFTER receiving placebo or vaccine). The "efficacy rates" we have heard of are based on people getting vaccine or placebo, blind to condition, and simply going on about their lives, with some spontaneously contracting the virus from somewhere or somebody. The requirement for tens of thousands of volunteers was because early in the game, the risk of spontaneous infection was lower, so to guarantee you had enough people getting sick to be able to draw statistically reliable conclusions, you had to start out with a HUGE number, distributed around the world. As the head of Pfizer pointed out in an interview, part of what sped up development was that it was easy to get lots of volunteers, and enough of them were spontaneously contracting the virus that efficacy was easy and quick to calculate.

Of course, personal behaviour will matter, as will local infection rates. The number of placebo recipients who managed to get sick is compared to the number of vaccine recipients who got sick. If 200 out of 10,000 placebo recipients got infected, and 10 out of 10,000 vaccine recipients got infected (identified via testing), then that is calculated as 95% efficacy, since only 5% as many vaccine-recipients got infected as did placebo recipients.

HOWEVER, the number spontaneously getting infected (which still matters, and is pretty reflective of the consequences of an immunization program) is separate from a) the number who die, and b) the number who are sick enough to be hospitalized. The AZ has, so far, not prevented getting infected as well as the Pfizer or Moderna, but HAS been 100% effective in preventing any of those who *did* get infected from requiring hospitalization or dying. 

Think of it this way. If getting a flu shot meant you were more likely to avoid the flu that season than catch it, but *might* get a mild case of the flu that season and end up staying home for 2 days watching Netflix and drinking chicken soup before you were right as rain and ready to go back to work, and NEVER be any sicker than that, would you consider that flu shot successful, or a waste? How bulletproof do you require a vaccine to make you, before you deem it worth your while? And while we're talking risk, how confident do you feel that the dose of Pfizer or Moderna you might wait for has been appropriately refrigerated at every step of the way? Consider ALL potential sources of risk and protection.

I don't think any of the available vaccines is dramatically better than any other, and if any ends up being "better", that's more likely to reflect how MY immune system responds to the specific stimuli provided by that vaccine; something which no one was able to predict or calculate beforehand. Like I keep saying, vaccines are an opportunity for your immune system to learn, in preparation for the test provided by infection with the actual pathogen. And just like school, some of us come out of a class inspired and smarter, and other doze off and flunk the mid-term. No one can tell at registration time who will fall into which group. We know the class average from previous years, but little more than that.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Got my clot shot today (thought it should be preferable to the chip  ).

I'll keep you posted.
No dibs.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

First they stopped giving it to "over 65's" and now "under 55's". A lot of changing Science if you ask me. I can fully understand people preferring to take their chances with one of the other brands.

Personally I'm pretty sure I'll take what's offered when my time comes - but like many others, I'll take Scarlett Johannson or Gal Gadot over Cher - but, hey - if Cher's the only one in the room when I open the door and she's willing........


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> I know some won't believe it but that's very true.
> We got septic and water to the house in 1972. Before that it was a hand pump well 50 feet south of the house, and an outhouse 50 feet north of the house. And we were not the last farm to move out the settlers log house built in 1905.
> Also, people still knew friends or relatives first hand that were affected by polio and measles. When vaccines came out for those it was not turned down.


My dad bought a farm in 1962. Our well water was only about 20ft from our back door. Best water I have ever tasted. But yeah, we just had an outhouse for the first several months we lived there. That wasn’t so fun in the winter.


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## silvertonebetty (Jan 4, 2015)

I’m not getting the vaccine. Not because I don’t want it but because I physically can’t get it because when I 2/3 years old I got guillain barre syndrome from a vaccination. I know it’s rare thing to happen the first time but the doctors said if I was to get any vaccines there’s a high risk of it coming back and would likely kill me if it happened again . Lord knows I barely survived the first time , it left me in a chair for a year and I had to learn how to stuff all over again. Can you imagine adopting a 4 year old that’s just learning how to talk and walk again . Seriously sometimes I wonder how my parents managed to deal with the struggles that came with my brother and I .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

I’ll take that vaccine right in the jugular for $73 worth of KFC.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

Tone Chaser said:


> Don’t be afraid. All of the people I know who go the AstraZeneca shot are fine, and extremely happy they got something that allows them to move on with life. My wife and I also got that shot. We are weeks to months ahead of others, by accepting that shot.


I would get it over not getting anything, but's not my first choice. As it has been widely documented, it does not protect against some (or at least one) of the variants. So what's the point?? To protect myself against the variant, I would still need to mask up, wash my hands excessively, and be socially distant. How does that change my life from right now? I would of course be less susceptible to the majority of the other strains, but my level of prevention would still need to be as diligent as it is today.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

silvertonebetty said:


> I’m not getting the vaccine. Not because I don’t want it but because I physically can’t get it because when I 2/3 years old I got guillain barre syndrome from a vaccination. I know it’s rare thing to happen the first time but the doctors said if I was to get any vaccines there’s a high risk of it coming back and would likely kill me if it happened again . Lord knows I barely survived the first time , it left me in a chair for a year and I had to learn how to stuff all over again. Can you imagine adopting a 4 year old that’s just learning how to talk and walk again . Seriously sometimes I wonder how my parents managed to deal with the struggles that came with my brother and I .
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It makes perfectly good sense that you would not want to get the vaccine but vaccines have changed tremendously since then so you could mention your concern to your doctor if you haven't already done so. Either way, most of us that can get the vaccine will and you should be fine. Just keep doing what your doing now to keep safe until then.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Both the adenovirus vaccine (Astra Zeneca) and the mRNA jabs, are less protective against the B1351 variant (South Africa). So if you're in a low risk situation, you might just want to hunker down until the dust settles.


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## brucew (Dec 30, 2017)

It's the unknown longer term consequences that tamper my enthusiasm over the jab.
That we won't know till next fall when a different flu virus shows up like clockwork.

My understanding is the J&J one is a traditional vaccine like a normal (in the past flu shot), but don't assume that's correct.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

allthumbs56 said:


> First they stopped giving it to "over 65's" and now "under 55's". A lot of changing Science if you ask me. I can fully understand people preferring to take their chances with one of the other brands.
> 
> Personally I'm pretty sure I'll take what's offered when my time comes - but like many others, I'll take Scarlett Johannson or Gal Gadot over Cher - but, hey - if Cher's the only one in the room when I open the door and she's willing........


If I could turn back time......


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

SWLABR said:


> I would get it over not getting anything, but's not my first choice. As it has been widely documented, it does not protect against some (or at least one) of the variants. So what's the point?? To protect myself against the variant, I would still need to mask up, wash my hands excessively, and be socially distant. How does that change my life from right now? I would of course be less susceptible to the majority of the other strains, but my level of prevention would still need to be as diligent as it is today.


If theres one thing ive learned from this whole thing is, to government, its a game of odds.
the vax simply reduces on a % basis the likelihood of you catching it....the same way that in schools they wear masks all day until lunch time when they throw them off and eat lunch with one another...simply hoping that less time exposed should result in less contagion based on the odds.
so what we're seeing with the bending of recommendations eg duration between shots, and using lesser quality vax that handles fewer variants, is the government rolling the dice and hoping that based on the odds, fewer (not zeros) cases will occur. vaccinated ppl will still get covid.
Like you, I'll take what I can get but hope it wont be AZN. My wife got Pfizer yesterday due to her health condition.

lets be honest, bc we're so late to the vax party, the government doesnt have much choice. beggars cant be choosers.
Even the politically and ideologically fucked up americans have managed this situation better than us.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

For a great many, the immunization program, and I suppose masks as well, has been framed as personal protection. I.E., if *I* wear a mask, *I* won't "get it", and if *I'm* vaccinated *I* won't "get it". While there is obviously an aspect of personal protection, the fundamental purpose of an immunization program is to *prevent contagion*. In other words, one's "protection" comes from there being little or nothing to spread. If I haven't caught it, due to preventative measures, or if my immune system, aided by vaccine, kills it off enough that I'm not shedding any, then I can't give it to YOU.

We've heard discussion of "herd immunity" (as opposed to "heard immunity" which I gather is spread by Facebook). The reason why targets of 75% or more immunized are set is because that reduces the likelihood of spread. Trust me, NO government, or even populace is perturbed when a quarter of the population gets the shit end of the stick, whether it comes to health, housing, income. And vaccinating 50% of the populace with something that is 100% effective still doesn't do enough to prevent spread. That was the problem with recent measles epidemics in several countries; not enough people were getting vaccinated and the disease continued to spread.

Isn't it ironic how deeply entrenched the expression "going viral" is in our public discourse, yet somehow people fail to grasp how viruses work?


----------



## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

Diablo said:


> If theres one thing ive learned from this whole thing is, to government, its a game of odds.
> the vax simply reduces on a % basis the likelihood of you catching it....the same way that in schools they wear masks all day until lunch time when they throw them off and eat lunch with one another...simply hoping that less time exposed should result in less contagion based on the odds.
> so what we're seeing with the bending of recommendations eg duration between shots, and using lesser quality vax that handles fewer variants, is the government rolling the dice and hoping that based on the odds, fewer (not zeros) cases will occur. vaccinated ppl will still get covid.
> Like you, I'll take what I can get but hope it wont be AZN. My wife got Pfizer yesterday due to her health condition.
> ...


My additional worry, I hear about these South American countries using (I think) a Chinese vax, or possibly a Russian one...?? The EU has said that does not stamp your vaccine passport to come here when this is all said and done. If the US hasn't approved the AZN, does that mean I can't cross the border??


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> If I could turn back time......


Before she made autotune popular?


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## Brian Johnston (Feb 24, 2019)

Any health food store:
*Quercetin
NAC
Zinc
Selenium
Vitamins C & D*

There's your cure, which has been used by many Canadian doctors (the ones I know will not get the vaccine, and most are opting for natural remedies that boost the immune system)


----------



## Jim Wellington (Sep 3, 2017)

Lincoln said:


> you must be a plumber. That's what they get taught in first year.


No I`m an electrician who has done self study in various things through out my life.


----------



## Jim Wellington (Sep 3, 2017)

BlueRocker said:


> I used to get tested for TB as a kid because so many of my family members had it through the years.


My mother still has in her possession a card that says she`s a carrier and immune to the disease. She`s 87.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I was listening to the news on the radio in the truck the other day. They had some medical professionals on talking about the vaccines.

By my sketchy memory there is a significant difference in the testing of the A-Z vaccine compared to the others. The other vaccines were tested before variants (English and African) developed and they also tested IN Africa where the variant is more prevalent.
This, they said, is partly why the efficacy rate came out lower.

Still does not belay the clotting issue. Canadians seem to be more wary of the A-Z vaccine than the others. Maybe with good reason, I don't know. I do know that I clot fairly readily already, and the blood thinner routine is something I don't want to go through again (if they catch it in time).


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

SWLABR said:


> My additional worry, I hear about these South American countries using (I think) a Chinese vax, or possibly a Russian one...?? The EU has said that does not stamp your vaccine passport to come here when this is all said and done. If the US hasn't approved the AZN, does that mean I can't cross the border??


I'm skeptical about the value of "vaccine passports". The risks for counterfeiting are not negligible. Moreover, as I keep repeating, one is not immediately "bulletproof" once vaccinated. People can still contract and spread until such time as their immune system has developed a sufficiently robust response to the particulars of this virus. And thousands of people equipped with the illusion of total and unqualified immunity still poses a contagion risk to the larger populace. So, I fully understand the *desire* for certainty by service providers, governments, and citizens, my sense is that much less certainty is actually provided than is assumed.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I was listening to the news on the radio in the truck the other day. They had some medical professionals on talking about the vaccines.
> 
> By my sketchy memory there is a significant difference in the testing of the A-Z vaccine compared to the others. The other vaccines were tested before variants (English and African) developed and they also tested IN Africa where the variant is more prevalent.
> This, they said, is partly why the efficacy rate came out lower.
> ...


The mRNA vaccines teach your immune system to be on the lookout for virus "spikes" that are shared in common with ALL coronaviruses, including variants (the "corona" in the name refers to the spikes that form a "crown" on the virus) One is certainly _prudent_ to be mindful of whether a given vaccine is as protective for X as for Y and Z. But I hasten to note that the risk of contracting is not only a function of the vaccine's action, but also the amount currently-infected persons shed.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

It would appear that the chances of a blood clot after the AZ vaccine are about 1/100th the chances of being run over by a truck which, my actuarial buddy informs me is 1:4292 on any given day. I get the whole abundance of caution thing and the topic comes up around our dinner table you can be sure but if your risk management balance allows you to step out the door in the morning you are already living far closer to the edge than rolling up your sleeve for an AZ poke. Take the poke and carry on. 

Having said that I'm sure that you and I will be the two Canadians to konk over with side effects from AZ vaccination so there's always schadenfreude to consider. 

j


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

How can a vaccine cause excessive clotting ?

We knew that problem with women taking hormones or contraceptive pill.
Worse in young smoking women taking pill and suffering from migraine.

But, how could a vaccine cause that ? Complete mystery to me.
Almost as myterious as those supposed "new technologies" involved in the making of these vaccines.

What I DO KNOW FOR SURE is that I lived my usual retiree life playing 125 rounds of golf last year : Covid did not catch me so far, so why would it from now on ?


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Brian Johnston said:


> Any health food store:
> *Quercetin
> NAC
> Zinc
> ...


Not a cure exactly. However an excellent part of a preventative, and protocol treatment. The Math+ treatment will give you timelines for how much and at which stage of the disease you are at.





Treatment Protocols - FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance


COVID-19 is a treatable disease, when caught early and treated appropriately. While there is no “magic bullet,” a number of therapies and drugs with different mechanisms of action have been shown to work during various phases of the disease. The protocols on this page represent our recommended...




covid19criticalcare.com




The Math+ protocol for treatment would require professional assistance.


----------



## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

mawmow said:


> How can a vaccine cause excessive clotting ?
> 
> We knew that problem with women taking hormones or contraceptive pill.
> Worse in young smoking women taking pill and suffering from migraine.
> ...


A mystery to them as well, which is why they're probably running triple shifts to find out the causative factor.


----------



## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> Having said that I'm sure that you and I will be the two Canadians to konk over with side effects from AZ vaccination so there's always schadenfreude to consider.
> j


Same odds as winning the lottery - yet we still buy tickets and make winning a part of our retirement plan


----------



## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

mhammer said:


> The mRNA vaccines teach your immune system to be on the lookout for virus "spikes" that are shared in common with ALL coronaviruses, including variants (the "corona" in the name refers to the spikes that form a "crown" on the virus) One is certainly _prudent_ to be mindful of whether a given vaccine is as protective for X as for Y and Z. But I hasten to note that the risk of contracting is not only a function of the vaccine's action, but also the amount currently-infected persons shed.


That's the idea in the lab. In the real world, and in this case, the human experimental lab, it's proving elusive.

The authors noted that previous studies have shown that the Moderna mRNA COVID-19 vaccine also staves off infection against virus variants but that its efficacy is 5 to 10 times lower against B1351, compared with D614G.

The researchers said that it's important to evaluate different strains' antibodies to virus variants using authentic clinical viral isolates, as they did, rather than with lab-engineered pseudoviruses, which most previous studies have used. They called for larger studies of vaccinees with and without previous COVID-19 infections and longer follow-up periods to better characterize the role of immune responses after vaccination.

"Our study also highlights the importance of the second dose of the Pfizer Cominarty [sic] vaccine, which was associated with a strong increase of neutralizing antibody titers and a widening of strain cross-reactive antibody responses," the authors wrote. "In conclusion, our results demonstrate that suboptimal or declining antibody responses are associated with a loss of cross-reactivity against novel emerging viral strains."


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## Brian Johnston (Feb 24, 2019)

HighNoon said:


> Not a cure exactly. However an excellent part of a preventative, and protocol treatment. The Math+ treatment will give you timelines for how much and at which stage of the disease you are at.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why not a cure? I know healthcare professionals who used that combination (in varying amounts) to get over Covid. It's as much a treatment as the other drugs out there, but these can be found in healthfood stores. A LARGE majority of those who came down with Covid also had low Zinc and D levels, both required for a healthy immune system.


----------



## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Brian Johnston said:


> Why not a cure? I know healthcare professionals who used that combination (in varying amounts) to get over Covid. It's as much a treatment as the other drugs out there, but these can be found in healthfood stores. A LARGE majority of those who came down with Covid also had low Zinc and D levels, both required for a healthy immune system.


I'm always careful with the word 'cure', as are most health professionals. I included the link, to make available, the dosages suggested. I have all those items handy and a few others, ready to repel all borders.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

Always12AM said:


> I’ll take that vaccine right in the jugular for $73 worth of KFC.


so that's a thigh , small coleslaw, small fries and a small drink ... 
would you like to super size that for another $10.00 ?


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

I’ll take whatever they give.... bahhhh I’m a sheep bah hahah.

I do get a kick out of reading people I know social media posts declaring the vaccines unsafe and untested and such.

Sure I can understand concern for something going into your body but these are the same people I’ve personally watched Hoover mountains of cocaine that was stepped on by some scummy unknown dealer, guzzle liquor by the gallon and eat half of their meals from some shitty fast food place with a disgusting bathroom and kitchen. Hard to take them seriously.


----------



## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

oldjoat said:


> so that's a thigh , small coleslaw, small fries and a small drink ...
> would you like to super size that for another $10.00 ?


KFC has really gone downhill, sauce me some Popeyes and I’m in.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

tdotrob said:


> KFC has really gone downhill, sauce me some Popeyes and I’m in.


since KFC started substituting pigeon for chicken ? ....
yea , popeyes is way better , too bad they don't have anything truly spicy.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

tdotrob said:


> I’ll take whatever they give.... bahhhh I’m a sheep bah hahah.
> 
> I do get a kick out of reading people I know social media posts declaring the vaccines unsafe and untested and such.
> 
> Sure I can understand concern for something going into your body but these are the same people I’ve personally watched Hoover mountains of cocaine that was stepped on by some scummy unknown dealer, guzzle liquor by the gallon and eat half of their meals from some shitty fast food place with a disgusting bathroom and kitchen. *Hard to take them seriously.*


If anything is hard to take serious its the trash the government spoon feeds us. "You have to have the second dose 2 weeks after the first dose", "Oh wait 30 days after the first dose is cool". "Oh wait we are really short on vaccines so 4 months should work". All backed up by science I suppose.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

oldjoat said:


> since KFC started substituting pigeon for chicken ? ....
> yea , popeyes is way better , too bad they don't have anything truly spicy.


Agreed, being the heat, we can handle it.

Popeyes ghost pepper wings were the closest they got and they weren’t hot at all. Disappointing.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

tdotrob said:


> KFC has really gone downhill, sauce me some Popeyes and I’m in.


I stopped eating that KFC garbage years ago. I haven't tried Popeyes but have heard good things. I've had Mary Browns several times in the past year since we got a store close to my office, which is also close to my house. Its far superior to KFC.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

had to go to mtrl and get some true hot sauce stuff ... it'll lift the paint off the car hood ...


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

guitarman2 said:


> If anything is hard to take serious its the trash the government spoon feeds us. "You have to have the second dose 2 weeks after the first dose", "Oh wait 30 days after the first dose is cool". "Oh wait we are really short on vaccines so 4 months should work". All backed up by science I suppose.


I see where your coming from but I choose to view it differently. Everything is new and a reactive response to a pandemic no one was prepared for despite the warnings, but that’s another story.

mRNA had been studied as a coding vehicle for a long time already so information existed at that front.

So for me personally I have two options, first being to bitch and complain about changes on the fly and conflicting information

or accept that as the entire world collects data and learns more and more through science and research an adjusts accordingly I can be glad that the people doing it ARE in fact looking out for the best paths forward and are willing to double back to be safe instead of just doubling down on misinformation, mistakes or previous negligence.

I choose the latter and it feels ok to me.

I can completely understand some healthy skepticism as well just not when it flies in the face of good ol facts.


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## Brian Johnston (Feb 24, 2019)

HighNoon said:


> I'm always careful with the word 'cure', as are most health professionals. I included the link, to make available, the dosages suggested. I have all those items handy and a few others, ready to repel all borders.


No need to be careful... dictionary: Cure = relieve (a person or animal) of the symptoms of a disease or condition. That is EXACTLY what those supplements do.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

guitarman2 said:


> I stopped eating that KFC garbage years ago. I haven't tried Popeyes but have heard good things. I've had Mary Browns several times in the past year since we got a store close to my office, which is also close to my house. Its far superior to KFC.


Me too. My three sons agree as well, they love Mary Browns.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> I've had Mary Browns several times in the past year since we got a store close to my office, which is also close to my house. Its far superior to KFC.


You’ve got that right! I’m a fan of Mary Brown’s ever since living in Newfoundland in the 90’s where they are very prevalent.


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## Brian Johnston (Feb 24, 2019)

tdotrob said:


> I see where your coming from but I choose to view it differently. Everything is new and a reactive response to a pandemic no one was prepared for despite the warnings, but that’s another story.
> 
> mRNA had been studied as a coding vehicle for a long time already so information existed at that front.
> 
> ...


I will say this... if you check the CDC's website, this 'vaccine' is not a vaccine, in regard to how a vaccine is created. It is a genetic modifier. Pump that into your body if you wish, and if you want to 'trust the gov't,' then have at it. Cases, cases, cases... oh, my!


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

I am continually amazed how many epidemiologists hang out on guitar forums. There seems to be several on every guitar forum I frequent.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Brian Johnston said:


> No need to be careful... dictionary: Cure = relieve (a person or animal) of the symptoms of a disease or condition. That is EXACTLY what those supplements do.


Alleviating or minimizing the effects of a virus while it runs its course in not the definition of a cure.


----------



## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Brian Johnston said:


> I will say this... if you check the CDC's website, this 'vaccine' is not a vaccine, in regard to how a vaccine is created. It is a genetic modifier. Pump that into your body if you wish, and if you want to 'trust the gov't,' then have at it. Cases, cases, cases... oh, my!


Oh boy, I wholeheartedly disagree with you on the genetic modification. But I don’t want to come off as an arm chair virologist and get into DNA modification and the nucleus of cells and all that so I’ll just disagree.


----------



## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

oldjoat said:


> so that's a thigh , small coleslaw, small fries and a small drink ...
> would you like to super size that for another $10.00 ?


LOL! That sums up Canada’s entire economy.


----------



## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Kerry Brown said:


> I am continually amazed how many epidemiologists hang out on guitar forums. There seems to be several on every guitar forum I frequent.


Normally, the guitarists I know, hang out in little rooms, trying to decipher the Black Napkins, or if possible become as fluid as Jeff Beck. Now here, they branch out into the world of tiny little cells, like the City of Tiny Lights. I would think you would applaud their tenacity to learn, understand, digest, and comprehend the fast paced and quickly changing world we live in.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

oldjoat said:


> had to go to mtrl and get some true hot sauce stuff ... it'll lift the paint off the car hood ...


I assume you're a fan of the web-series "First We Feast"? https://www.youtube.com/c/FirstWeFeast/videos
This past weekend, SNL had a skit where Beyoncé goes to First We Feast, and foolishly starts off with something around 160,000 scovilles, soon requesting that her hair technician remove her wig, and apply 6 ice-cubes to her scalp before putting the wig back on.


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## Brian Johnston (Feb 24, 2019)

tdotrob said:


> Oh boy, I wholeheartedly disagree with you on the genetic modification. But I don’t want to come off as an arm chair virologist and get into DNA modification and the nucleus of cells and all that so I’ll just disagree.


I could provide actual physicians and surgeons who are suggesting exactly that. Maybe they are nuts, but they are nuts with far more experience than I.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Brian Johnston said:


> I could provide actual physicians and surgeons who are suggesting exactly that. Maybe they are nuts, but they are nuts with far more experience than I.


I would love to read it all or even if you have to phone numbers or emails I’d love to correspond with them to ask if that is true.

thanks!


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## Brian Johnston (Feb 24, 2019)

guitarman2 said:


> Alleviating or minimizing the effects of a virus while it runs its course in not the definition of a cure.


You may want to open a dictionary and look up the term Cure, which clearly states: relieve a person/animal of the symptoms of a disease or condition. I didn't make that up... that is what a 'cure' is. My suggestion is to use a different word from 'cure,' or complain to the dictionaries. Here's another one: a method or course of remedial treatment, as for disease. And so, yes, you can take natural products as a method or course of remedial treatment. In fact, prior to the Rockefellers starting up the FDA and CDC, man-made chemicals (prescriptions) never existed, nor did vaccines. Doctors relied on natural remedies, which didn't make money. With the funding of the Rockefellers, 'natural' doctors were scorned and scoffed at, while the focus was on drugs/prescriptions. Now, anyone promoting that which is natural are Naturopaths, who were typical doctors back in the 1800s and earlier. But whatever.


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## Brian Johnston (Feb 24, 2019)

tdotrob said:


> I would love to read it all or even if you have to phone numbers or emails I’d love to correspond with them to ask if that is true.
> 
> thanks!


PM me, as I have to find the time to get you information. My wife's mom is on life support and is headed down south to be with her (her father is here, with onset Dementia... and so, I'm responsible for him).


----------



## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Brian Johnston said:


> PM me, as I have to find the time to get you information. My wife's mom is on life support and is headed down south to be with her (her father is here, with onset Dementia... and so, I'm responsible for him).


i will thanks, no worries, I am very sorry to hear that. All the best.


----------



## numb41 (Jul 13, 2009)

tdotrob said:


> I’ll take whatever they give.... bahhhh I’m a sheep bah hahah.
> 
> I do get a kick out of reading people I know social media posts declaring the vaccines unsafe and untested and such.
> 
> Sure I can understand concern for something going into your body but these are the same people I’ve personally watched Hoover mountains of cocaine that was stepped on by some scummy unknown dealer, guzzle liquor by the gallon and eat half of their meals from some shitty fast food place with a disgusting bathroom and kitchen. Hard to take them seriously.


Time for some new friends dude


----------



## brucew (Dec 30, 2017)

gtrguy I should apologize. I should know better than to post at the end of a long day with a couple vodka in me. I should've just posted the link to where you could research it.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

numb41 said:


> Time for some new friends dude





numb41 said:


> Time for some new friends dude


maybe just me but there is a big gap between friends and people I know.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Brian Johnston said:


> You may want to open a dictionary and look up the term Cure, which clearly states: relieve a person/animal of the symptoms of a disease or condition. I didn't make that up... that is what a 'cure' is. My suggestion is to use a different word from 'cure,' or complain to the dictionaries. Here's another one: a method or course of remedial treatment, as for disease. And so, yes, you can take natural products as a method or course of remedial treatment. In fact, prior to the Rockefellers starting up the FDA and CDC, man-made chemicals (prescriptions) never existed, nor did vaccines. Doctors relied on natural remedies, which didn't make money. With the funding of the Rockefellers, 'natural' doctors were scorned and scoffed at, while the focus was on drugs/prescriptions. Now, anyone promoting that which is natural are Naturopaths, who were typical doctors back in the 1800s and earlier. But whatever.



Definitions and link below. Viruses run their course. You don't cure them. When they are running their course you try to mitigate the effects. Thats not a cure. Its like when you're in terminal stage 4 cancer and they let you control the amount of drugs in to your system until you finally over dose. The drugs are attempting to make pain and symptoms bearable. But since you die its not curing you. 

Meriam webster definition:

a*: *to restore to health, soundness, or normality_cured_ him of a rare blood disease
b*: *to bring about recovery from cure a disease

You can interpret that any way you want that fits your narrative. But a cure would interrupt the full course of a disease. For example AIDs have treatments that mitigate symptoms. But there is no cure. 




> There's no cure for the common cold. Antibiotics are of no use against cold viruses and shouldn't be used unless there's a bacterial infection. Treatment is directed at relieving signs and symptoms.








Common cold - Diagnosis and treatment - Mayo Clinic







www.mayoclinic.org




.


----------



## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

brucew said:


> So research it, looking for someone to wipe your ass look elsewhere.
> 
> Took .0101 seconds: VAERS - Data


Yeah, go ahead and take a look at that site and get back to me about the ass wiping. If you can pull useful information out of it you’re a better man than I.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

gtrguy said:


> Yeah, go ahead and take a look at that site and get back to me about the ass wiping. If you can pull useful information out of it you’re a better man than I.


Maybe about as useful as the useless information the government gives us.


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Tasha Kheiriddin: AstraZeneca advice is another in Canada's long list of pandemic flip-flops


Canada’s public health officials made a shocking number of mistakes. Poor advice on the AstraZeneca vaccine is but the latest one




nationalpost.com


----------



## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I holding off until the new Senokot vaccine is ready in the summer; I’m expecting big things from that.


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## Suferosa (Jul 21, 2020)

I'll hold off for a year or two. I already had the "RONA" regardless. Covid's been around just over a year....the vaccine around 7 months and approved for emergency status only for 3 months. Each to their own opinions but in the context of the timeline it took previously for approval, trials etc I view this as rushed science.


----------



## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

allthumbs56 said:


> Same odds as winning the lottery - yet we still buy tickets and make winning a part of our retirement plan


not me i don't buy no stinkin' lottery tickets 
i'm gonna get famous tour the world and make a fortune doing solo singer songwriter blues and classical influenced folk gigs starting when i'm 50 
i'll also record myself and run my own sound it will be part of the show kind of like Radiohead meets Fred Penner with a shot of Steve Bell
i put all my lottery and booze money into gear and road cases so i'm ready to leave at a moment's notice
j


----------



## keto (May 23, 2006)

Suferosa said:


> I'll hold off for a year or two. I already had the "RONA" regardless. Covid's been around just over a year....the vaccine around 7 months and approved for emergency status only for 3 months. Each to their own opinions but in the context of the timeline it took previously for approval, trials etc I view this as rushed science.


Thank you for giving us a screenshot (who tf does that? why not a link? oh because it's garbage?) of an opthamologist who's part of a group of quacks spreading disinformation, so helpful, saving lives with numbers with lots of zero's, though no other digits.


----------



## keto (May 23, 2006)

Meanwhile, in actual news,








Germany suspends use of AstraZeneca's Covid shot for the under-60s, dealing another blow to drugmaker


Germany has suspended use of the Covid vaccine created by AstraZeneca and the University of Oxford in the under-60s, dealing another blow to the drugmaker.




www.cnbc.com





"This decision was “based on the currently available data on the occurrence of rare but very severe thromboembolic side effects. This side effect occurred 4 to 16 days after vaccination, predominantly in people (under) 60 years of age,” it said.
Within that number (keto edit, 31 reported), thrombocytopenia (a condition characterized by abnormally low levels of platelets in the blood) was also reported in 19 cases. In nine of those cases, the people affected died.
All but two of the 31 cases involved women aged 20 to 63 years while the two men affected were 36 and 57 years old, the Paul Ehrlich Institute said."


----------



## Brian Johnston (Feb 24, 2019)

guitarman2 said:


> Definitions and link below. Viruses run their course. You don't cure them. When they are running their course you try to mitigate the effects. Thats not a cure. Its like when you're in terminal stage 4 cancer and they let you control the amount of drugs in to your system until you finally over dose. The drugs are attempting to make pain and symptoms bearable. But since you die its not curing you.
> 
> Meriam webster definition:
> 
> ...


Who says there's no cure for Covid? Frig, both my fiancee and I went through it, and that was a year ago. We're both fine. The entire point of taking those supplements is no different than taking hydroxycloroquine... it speeds up recovery with far less severe effects. That is my point... a 'vaccine' (not a true vaccine according to the original WHO definition, who then changed it, lol) is unnecessary.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

keto said:


> Thank you for giving us a screenshot (who tf does that? why not a link? oh because it's garbage?) of an opthamologist who's part of a group of quacks spreading disinformation, so helpful, saving lives with numbers with lots of zero's, though no other digits.


Thats all you got? A screen shot means bullshit and a link is credible? LOL. 

Here's a link. It tries to discredit Dr Vanden Bossche. But all this article tells me is that no one knows anything. The arguments against the Dr's assertions are all guesses them selves with statements like "accumulating data". Or they expect results, etc. Dr Vanden Bossches claims are no crazier than the claims that the vaccines are going to dig us out of this mess and not create a bigger mess. As the governments of the world are handling this I'd say the accumulating data is that they'll probably screw this up.









The Doomsday Prophecy of Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche


Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche, a Belgian virus expert, has scared the Internet by claiming the COVID-19 vaccines will doom humanity. No need to panic.A Belgian virus expert has scared the Internet by claiming the COVID-19 vaccines will doom humanity. No need to panic.



www.mcgill.ca


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

I’m glad lots of you are not interested in the vaccine. I’ll get mine sooner - thanks, I appreciate your choice! I’ve weighed the risks and for me it’s a no-brainer but everyone gets to decide for themselves and I respect your decision.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

You know, normally, any drug or vaccine would have at least several years' worth of both industrial and academic R&D before being submitted for approval and widespread public use.

We all started getting sick everywhere at once at an alarming rate, and turned to our respective governments, screaming "DO SOMETHING! FIX IT! NOW!!!" The pharmaceutical industry responded, and regulatory bodies focussed their efforts to expedite things. Would that citizens, business, and those seeking re-election (or keeping a grip on power), had acted as responsibly and effectively.

But apparently patience, self-restraint, and compromise are now character flaws and juvenile impatience has replaced them as a virtue. We seem to want the sort of certainty that cannot be achieved in the time frame provided, and our criteria for certainty ignore baseline risk information. This morning, I read an op-ed from Postmedia's Tasha Kheiriddin bemoaning the "flip-flopping" on the part of government and officials. This, at a time when we observe the one-year anniversary of the greatest public-health challenge in our lifetimes. One year?! Shouldn't we be able to speed this all up? Shouldn't everyone even remotely connected with efforts all know the same things - economic, epidemiological, immunological, health behaviour, supply - all at once? Shouldn't we have absolute certainty about absolutely EVERYTHING regarding this disease and its treatment and prevention? And shouldn't we have all of that at the same time as assuring that all businesses and citizens are kept "whole"? And shouldn't we assure that all local governments and officials get to maintain their authority and autonomy over everything at the same time? And shouldn't this all be as easy as upping our download speeds?

Remarkable how so many people can be so jaundiced and sour about "religion", yet expect miracles on a daily basis. Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am, stuck in the middle with you, and the pump don't work because the vandals took the handle. Outburst....over. 😉


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## ykram57 (May 25, 2008)

BlueRocker said:


> My point is, we're not having this discussion about any of the other vaccines. IMO, where there's smoke there's fire. I continue to believe that AZ is second rate. Given the choice, I'd take something else. Given no choice, I'd take it over nothing.


Good for you. IMO


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

gtrguy said:


> I’m glad lots of you are not interested in the vaccine. I’ll get mine sooner - thanks, I appreciate your choice! I’ve weighed the risks and for me it’s a no-brainer but everyone gets to decide for themselves and I respect your decision.


No problem. I'm glad to let you go first.


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## jayoldschool (Sep 12, 2013)

Posts deleted.

This one's done. Leave out the personal attacks, political discussion, conspiracy theories next time.


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