# So are PRS guitars?



## Guest (Feb 24, 2008)

Are PRS guitars the end of the world as many claim? I've played a couple and yes they're nice but the price tag is a bit much. If they are that great why isn't every big name playing them? Alex Lifeson was playing them and now he's back to Gibson. I feel the same way about these guitars as I do about Mesa amps, ok products, overhyped and pricey to make you feel you have something superior. What's your opinion on these.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

The high end PRS guitars I've tried have been great, but not worth even close to what they cost IMO. The lower end models like the SE didn't impress me at all.

Then again I fel the same about Gibsons. They make some nice instruments but to me they're worth about a third of the sticker price.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

i think PRS builds to a quality level as good as anyone's, really. they price their guitars competetively in their market (for instance, try to find another carved top hollowbody for less than $5,000.. not too common)... that being said, i've played tons of them, and they make clunkers just like anyone else. i don't think they're vastly overpriced. they're priced to compete with gibson, and their quality control is far superior.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

suttree said:


> i think PRS builds to a quality level as good as anyone's, really. they price their guitars competetively in their market (for instance, try to find another carved top hollowbody for less than $5,000.. not too common)... that being said, i've played tons of them, and they make clunkers just like anyone else. i don't think they're vastly overpriced. they're priced to compete with gibson, and their quality control is far superior.


Just my opinion of course, but ANY guitar is vastly overpriced if you can get one of similar quality and with similar features for less than half of the cost, and in my experience I CAN do so in the case of Gibbies and PRSs.

The reality is that American made instruments cost more, for no other reason than the fact that they're made in America.


$5000.?

It's a guitar, LOL.


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## Gene Machine (Sep 22, 2007)

*that's exactly it.*



Milkman said:


> Just my opinion of course, but ANY guitar is vastly overpriced if you can get one of similar quality and with similar features for less than half of the cost, and in my experience I CAN do so in the case of Gibbies and PRSs.
> 
> The reality is that American made instruments cost more, for no other reason than the fact that they're made in America.
> 
> ...


if your conparing labour costs, Joe Lee in China is probably getting $5 a day to build a guitar (or something equally low) and Joe Smith in Nashville TN is getting about $20 and hour or more. So of course USA made stuff is going to be more just because it is made here. But...

In the past Chinese stuff has also been crap quality until the last few years. Maybe it's CNC, or other manuafacturing factors but (as i see it)just as Japan came to the forefront in the 70's and 80s as a leader in superior quality building, and later in the late 90s Korean made stuff really blossomed, I think Chinese made instruments have really blossomed in the last few years also. At the same time, US made instruments have (IMO) stayed the same or got worse depending on the company. They can't rest on their laurels anymore. I have a chinese made $500 Ibanez ES-175 copy that blows away the equivalent $3000 Gibson. I own two les pauls, so I'm not talking sour grapes or envy or anything like that. 

The real $$ value these days in USA made guitars is their demand because people want a 'real' strat, LP or PRS. This keeps the resale value high as well. So I can sell my LP for what I paid for it, but I can't say the same about my Ibanez.

Funny, this exact same conversation could be had about Harley Davidsons v. Japanese bikes. (except that I don't own two HDs. unfortunately)
:food-smiley-004:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Gene Machine said:


> if your conparing labour costs, Joe Lee in China is probably getting $5 a day to build a guitar (or something equally low) and Joe Smith in Nashville TN is getting about $20 and hour or more. So of course USA made stuff is going to be more just because it is made here. But...
> 
> In the past Chinese stuff has also been crap quality until the last few years. Maybe it's CNC, or other manuafacturing factors but (as i see it)just as Japan came to the forefront in the 70's and 80s as a leader in superior quality building, and later in the late 90s Korean made stuff really blossomed, I think Chinese made instruments have really blossomed in the last few years also. At the same time, US made instruments have (IMO) stayed the same or got worse depending on the company. They can't rest on their laurels anymore. I have a chinese made $500 Ibanez ES-175 copy that blows away the equivalent $3000 Gibson. I own two les pauls, so I'm not talking sour grapes or envy or anything like that.
> 
> ...


I agree with your comments. Resale value is a consideration to some people, but not to me. I buy guitars with the intent to use them until they are no longer repairable or useful.

Guitars, like any consumer goods are priced based on what the market will bear. Gibson, PRS and other makers sell their guitars for big $$$$ because people want that name on the headstock and are willing to pay to have it.

I'm not saying they're not good guitars. I'm simply saying you can get AS good for much less money if the name on the headstock is not of prime importance to you.


When it comes to the Japan vs HD debate, as a long time supplier to all major Japanese motorcycle companies and to HD, I would take the Japanese bikes in a heartbeat, both for quality and design reasons. Let's just say that I'm very well versed in what the respective manufacturers see as their highest priorities.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

It's the law of diminishing returns.

You pay a lot for the little bit extra you get from US made instruments. To some it's worth it, to some it's not. 

In the old days, offshore instruments were junk. Today their build quality is quite good.

Awhile ago I bought a Yamaha big box (AE500) from a clearout at Mothers, $300, and you sent in a form and they shipped you a hardshell case. Made in Indonesia, but I was really surprised how good the quality was. However, there is that 'something extra' that is missing. Hard to put a finger on it, but it has no magic.

Even though I'm a Gibson guy, IMO PRS is up there with the top manufacturers today. Some guys like Gibson, some like Fender, some like PRS. Apples and Oranges.


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## thechamp96 (Jan 16, 2008)

I agree with everything that has been posted about the higher-end PRS guitars: great quality, but heavy price-tag. 

However, the PRS SE series guitars are exceptional value- they are Korean-made. In the price range that those guitars are offered, you won't find any other guitar that compares in sound, build quality, and looks- in my opinion. Check out the SE singlecut- they are gorgeous. The closest comparable guitar might be some of the Godins that fall in the $500-700 range, like the LGs. Just my opinion.

:food-smiley-004:


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## starjag (Jan 30, 2008)

konasexone said:


> Are PRS guitars the end of the world as many claim? I've played a couple and yes they're nice but the price tag is a bit much. If they are that great why isn't every big name playing them? Alex Lifeson was playing them and now he's back to Gibson. I feel the same way about these guitars as I do about Mesa amps, ok products, overhyped and pricey to make you feel you have something superior. What's your opinion on these.


Every now and then when I am at a store that carries PRS guitars, I pick one and play... my small hands have never bonded with the neck profiles they use.

I want my $$$ to stay as much as possible in North America. When I consider guitars with similar or better craftsmanship and quality than PRS/Gibson/Fender... and friendlier neck profiles for my hands, I tend to consider Carvin or Godin.

I recently bought and returned a Mesa 5:25 1x10. I found it very hard to find settings that I liked. I am now a proud owner of a Zinky Blue Velvet 25W, which has less knobs and switches than any Mesa, but it is certainly well-voiced over very useable ranges.

One of my friends has a PRS Long & McQuade Anniversary edition and a Mesa dual recto head with a Mesa half stack. Over $10K of equipment right there. I have no issues with his distorted tone mainly because there is so much compression there... but he gets offended when I tell him that his clean tone is terrible.

PS: as a disclaimer I must admit that I do drive a cheap Korean car... so go figure


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Ive only player the old PRSs and yes, they were excellent guitars and very well worth the coin. Alot of US guitars are sold at cost or even a small loss, unless youre talking Fender, PRS, and Gibson, who do make a profit. But for the smaller US shops they dont make any money on the US stuff and make a mint off the import stuff. In that way the US guitars do give you a great bang for your buck because you are paying what it cost to make. For imports, they are built by subcontractors, so about a third of what you pay is the cost of the guitar, the other two-thirds is profit to the subcontractor, and company. In India, for instance guitars are being sold to the companies for $20 a unit. For my money Id rather buy US made from small manufacturers as they have incredible attention to detail and great customer service. Thats something that PRS had in the 80s and early 90s............


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I think it's a mistake to assess guitars based on where and how they are made. That's better done after you choose the instrument based on value vs cost.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

If you are buying US you can pretty well bet the hardware, electronics, very likely even the wood, are higher quality than you will get offshore. That's why you see so many Epi owners changing out their parts for example.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

dwagar said:


> If you are buying US you can pretty well bet the hardware, electronics, very likely even the wood, are higher quality than you will get offshore. That's why you see so many Epi owners changing out their parts for example.


When it comes to Epi you can replace everything but the wood (not necessary but...) and still come up a lot cheaper than a comparable Gibson.

You can buy a guitar for $500 ~ $700 with quality and craftsmanship on par with a $2500 Les Paul. $1800 will buy you some REEEEEAlly nice pickups and hardware.

There is a premium attached to the name. Nothing wrong with paying it if that's important to you, but it's there nevertheless.


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

Just my two cents, up until around 1993 I was a Gibson fan and I was in a band at that time and a friend of the bass player let me try his PRS. I was hooked immediately. I wanted to find out more about this company and he told me more about it, how PRS had little "tricks" they used like making the neck feeling more "worn in" and also about the different grades of tops, 10 being the best. It wasn't long after that I bought a used PRS (CE-3 model) from a guy in the Woodbine/Queen area of Toronto and it instantly became my number one guitar. What others have said is right, they *are* on the pricey side but they're definitely high quality guitars. Gibson and Fender have custom shops but PRS doesn't because PRSes are pretty much custom built from the beginning. I recommend you check out the PRS website: http://www.prsguitars.com/ and you can see how they build their guitars. I also agree that the SE series are outstanding "bang for the buck" guitars. I've tried out a couple and they blow away the other guitars that are available at similar price points.


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## hoser (Feb 2, 2006)

I had a standard 22 about 5 years ago. I got rid of it after 2 weeks. there was nothing I liked about it. some people think they're all that, some don't.

there are korean guitars out there that'll give US guitars a run for their money. generally speaking, location is irrelevant in terms of quality. there's clunkers everywhere....I've played 200 dollar Agiles that were fantastic stock (still have mine 6 years later. no changes) and 3000 dollar Gibsons that they should've been ashamed to ship to a store.

my number 1 is an '89 mij tele. I think I paid about 400 for it new. the hardware is all stock, i dropped a lil 59er in the bridge, that's the only change.

whats funny to me is people buying epis for the name since most of the korean guitars are made in the same factory.


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

Milkman said:


> When it comes to Epi you can replace everything but the wood (not necessary but...) and still come up a lot cheaper than a comparable Gibson.
> 
> You can buy a guitar for $500 ~ $700 with quality and craftsmanship on par with a $2500 Les Paul. $1800 will buy you some REEEEEAlly nice pickups and hardware.


I have an Epiphone Emperor Regent. I changed its pickup for a handmade Kent Armstrong Johnny Smith. I was very pleased with the result. This guitar played and sounded as good as a Gibson for 1/3 of the price. Then I bought a lightly-used Sheraton II and changed its pickups for Seymour Duncan Antiquity humbuckers, spectacular pickups (better than Gibson 57s, IMHO). Again, it played and sounded as good as a Gibson. Or so I thought.

Ok, I admit it. I was wrong. 

Not all Gibson guitars are outstanding. Handmade instruments are always going to be less consistent. But when you find a good one, they're in a completely different league. No amount of pickup changes, hardware or electronic upgrades is going to turn a good Epiphone into a good Gibson.

Last summer, I bought a Gibson Memphis Custom Shop ES-335 Dot in Cherry, flamed top, gloss finish. I tried many, but this one really spoke to me. Everything about it is spectacular. The woods, the components, the workmanship, the sound. It is lighter and yet it sustains longer, it has better woods and sounds better even unplugged. I sold the Sheraton.

I still own the Emperor Regent. With updated pickup, it's in very good guitar and I enjoy playing it. But I'm no longer delusioned into thinking it's as good as a good Gibson.



Milkman said:


> There is a premium attached to the name. Nothing wrong with paying it if that's important to you, but it's there nevertheless.


Of course there's a premium attached to the Gibson name on the headstock. The same way there's a premium attached to the BMW or Lexus brand names. Except that most car buyers realize that the brand isn't the only thing to differentiate them from a Kia.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2008)

Kenmac said:


> Gibson and Fender have custom shops but PRS doesn't because PRSes are pretty much custom built from the beginning.


That's not true. PRS has Private Stock and an Artist Relations Program that customizes guitars for you (if you're famous enough).


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

hoser said:


> I had a standard 22 about 5 years ago. I got rid of it after 2 weeks. there was nothing I liked about it. some people think they're all that, some don't.
> 
> there are korean guitars out there that'll give US guitars a run for their money. generally speaking, location is irrelevant in terms of quality. there's clunkers everywhere....I've played 200 dollar Agiles that were fantastic stock (still have mine 6 years later. no changes) and 3000 dollar Gibsons that they should've been ashamed to ship to a store.
> 
> ...


yeah i dont like them either- sure they are well made and all, but i prefer an electric guitar to be what it is- a few pieces of wood, some metal and wire- nothing more. prs guitars sound and feel very generic to me.id never pay the kind of money prs wants for theyre stuff, id buy a $500 fender and rip it apart, reassemble it properly and forget about it.
i also prefer a monte carlo to a cadillac.:food-smiley-004:


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## Metal#J# (Jan 1, 2007)

I love my PRS guitars. Worth every cent! 

I just hope that people aren't forming negative opinions of PRS based on the fact that they can't afford one. I've never been able to afford one.....but I made it happen. Sure they're expensive......but unlike Gibson, you're getting a quality instument. I don't think that is a matter of opinion. Some people might not like how they play, but the quality is there. The PS program at PRS is there for the people that want something special and can afford them. Do I think spending 10,15,25k on a guitar is reasonable..........NO...........but I haven't played one yet either.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

A. I can aford a PRS or Gibson. I've owned a number of Gibsons, mostly before the rest of the world started making guitars equal to them for less money.

B. A good $500. guitar is much closer to a $2500 PRS or Gibbie than a Kia is to a BMW, but frankly I think Bimmers are most often purchased for similar reasons as high end guitars. 

Status (maybe wishful thinking to an extent).


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

everyone saying that a $500 epi + 300 in parts will get them a gibson right?

a used gibson LP studio can be had for $900. they're better, IMO, then epiphones. i own a gibson, i find it to be a quality instrument. sure i dont like the price, and if i buy another one it'll be used, but im glad i own it. my LP studio smokes the LP standard I tried in the store in both feel and tone. that's just my opinion

PRS isn't the end of the line, but what is? some guys dont like custom shop guitars either. they're expensive, but one can buy a used model as well. they're quality instruments, and you either like 'em or you dont. just like anything else.

I really like PRS guitars, i've only played 2 (standard 24 was nice, singlecut SE wowed me). I have a tokai PRS copy, and i dont feel that it's comparable to a PRS in terms of tone or craftsmanship, but it was $540 used. i bought it in perfect condition - i put the first scratch on that guitar.

I intend to own a PRS at some point. they're beautiful guitars to me.


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## Guest (Feb 24, 2008)

I'd swear there's a PRS rep in this forum judging from some of the replies. I too can afford a PRS but after all its a piece of wood with paint and strings. I know what $10000 buys me when I'm shopping for an ATV or a snowmobile. I also know there's a heck of a lot less technology going into a guitar and a lot more guitars sold than motorized toys.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

I agree with what was said earlier about PRS import guitars. I played a Santana model some time ago at a jam, the fellow had just bought it used. An early one with the round neck profile, reminded me of a '60 Gibby neck. After a quick set up, that guitar just smoked. I think he'd paid something like $500 for it, I thought it was a GREAT guitar for that kind of money, no matter where or who made it.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

They are nice guitars, no question. I have played some, could not part with the cash they were asking. Of all the guitars I have played and owned my favorites come down to the way the instrument feels when you wear it and play it. The necks, the fret boards, the balance. Both my favorites were custom made guitars. One from Heritage and the other a Mason Bernard. When you run your hands across those guitars you know you have something special. Both I got used as well. Very high end guitars that people don't jump all over because they dont say Gibson or Fender or PRS.

I had a Mason Bernard years ago that I found in a pawn shop for $275.00 I ended up selling it later, kicked my ass. Took me about 5 years to find another one and it's staying with me this time.

So to me, it comes down to finding value thats out there but usually in the form of a lesser known brand. I own a Les Paul too and have had lot's of Fenders. But my two favorites are the ones above.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

Metal#J# said:


> I love my PRS guitars. Worth every cent!
> 
> I just hope that people aren't forming negative opinions of PRS based on the fact that they can't afford one. I've never been able to afford one.....but I made it happen. Sure they're expensive......but unlike Gibson, you're getting a quality instument. I don't think that is a matter of opinion. Some people might not like how they play, but the quality is there. The PS program at PRS is there for the people that want something special and can afford them. Do I think spending 10,15,25k on a guitar is reasonable..........NO...........but I haven't played one yet either.


lol- i can afford them, just as i can afford the gibsons and fenders that i dont buy- its common sense- why pay $3000 for $500 worth of wood and parts?


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## Metal#J# (Jan 1, 2007)

fraser said:


> why pay $3000 for $500 worth of wood and parts?


 OH yeah, I hear ya...........Why pay 3k for a boutique amp when you can get a Roland or a Yorkville for a $100 that would make sound all the same. After all.......$100 is more reflective of total cost of parts.


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## starjag (Jan 30, 2008)

I drive a Kia. I have never owned a high-end car. In contrast, I have owned nice Gibson and Fender guitars... but now I only play Carvins


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

Metal#J# said:


> OH yeah, I hear ya...........Why pay 3k for a boutique amp when you can get a Roland or a Yorkville for a $100 that would make sound all the same. After all.......$100 is more reflective of total cost of parts.


mmm i dunno- im flattered that you quoted me, however i feel a roland or yorkville amp may not be the way to go-a lot of times boutique amps are paying some guys rent, maybe feeding theyre kids.
for decent tube sound you must either spend lotsa money or dig in and rewire one of the new imports. i get glowing reviews of my epi valve jr- although it took me 6 months to get it right, it kicks ass
if your amp sounds like shit, so will your guitar


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

A guitar isnt a status thing. You dont walk around town flashing it, it is a tool..............


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## Metal#J# (Jan 1, 2007)

fraser said:


> ,i feel a roland or yorkville amp may not be the way to go


 I feel buying cheaper guitars just because it's more reflective of the actual production cost isn't the way to go.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

Metal#J# said:


> I feel buying cheaper guitars just because it's more reflective of the actual production cost isn't the way to go.


a cheaper guitar, properly massaged, can save one hundreds of dollars.
id rather spend that money on chubby girls myself. if you dont know how to massage a guitar, i ask what kinda guitar player are you?


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> A guitar isnt a status thing. You dont walk around town flashing it, it is a tool..............


I wondered why I was getting weird looks when I walked around with my strat strapped to my back.


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## Metal#J# (Jan 1, 2007)

Maybe they can make a chubby version of this one for you to massage.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

I've played a few nice PRS's over the years and actually owned a soapbar equipped McCarty at one point. 

I don't think their price in out of line compared to some of the stuff out there.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

:smile:she neednt be too chubby, she just needs to put on some years m8-
same goes for guitars lol.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

Metal#J# said:


> I feel buying cheaper guitars just because it's more reflective of the actual production cost isn't the way to go.


but if you could buy a $500 guitar and make it work for you, would you then buy a 2500$ PRS? thats my take on guitars. my vintage strats where not vintage when i got them. they were crap nobody else wanted.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Accept2 said:


> A guitar isnt a status thing. You dont walk around town flashing it, it is a tool..............


I dunno, I think its a status thing...its just focussed at a very small segment of the population...other guitarists. Lets face it, we all kinda dig having the "holy grail" of gear, and making other musicians drool, even if we could prob sound just as good on Squier's. Shouldnt be that you take someone more seriously with expensive "tools", but you do...I know I'm reassured if the guy who puts the addition on my house is using DeWalt or Old Milwaukee tools vs. Black&Decker or Princess Auto's brand.

Lotsa Gibson bashing going on in this thread, I guess thats what they get for having such high prices and a marketing team that just wont quit. I personally like my Gibsons, and have never played a bad one (well unless you count an Epiphone). But theres definitely a law of diminishing returns with guitars. Above the $500 mark, paying 2x, 4x, 10x as much doesnt yield an instrument that is that much better on the same maginitude, so some may justify the difference, other wont. From my experience, all you get is a few more exotic options, and better fit and finish (and increased resale).

As to PRS, the ones I've encountered played ok, didnt impress me looks wise (I hate anything that reminds me of Carlos Santana), and seemed overpriced for a company that I'll always think of (as Ibanez once was), as basically a Gibson copycat.

On another note, Lado used to make fine guitars in the late 80's...his popularity with the hair metal crowd made him seem like the Charvel-Jackson of the North....and then it all came crumbling down, whereas PRS kept growing...I wonder why that is? Too tied to a particular genre of music that went extinct?


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## Big White Tele (Feb 10, 2007)

A guitar is only worth what someone's willing to pay for it. If its awsome and I have to have it, I'll find a way. Even if its 5000.00. So far I havn't found one I liked that much. I have had a few PRS's, and couldnt bond with them, but high priced Tele's, well thats another story.....


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2008)

konasexone, I have to ask: what were you hoping to achieve with this thread? That someone would convince you otherwise? That you'd get a bunch of like-minded individuals going "Yup. Me too."? In all my years in forums I really never understood these kinds of threads and why the continue to persist. I've never seen someone change their mind and camps because of a thread like this one.

Let me see if I can sum up this thread (and all the "Is <insert brand name> really worth the money?" posts to come): _it's completely subjective_.

Some people value what you get when you buy a PRS, some don't. Neither type of person can give anything but subjective opinions on the why or wherefore of their heart's desires. You spend your money where you think you get your best return and that differs significantly from person to person.


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

I think expensive guitars are luxury items. I stick to the sub $500 range myself, but that doen't mean that I havent spent a few thousand in a few months on guitars, it just means that I have more of them.

To me guitars are like girls, you try them out because you like how they look, then you take them home for a test drive and if you can live with them, you keep em. I'd rather have a few different types of guitars than try to find one guitar that can do everything - depending on my mood I might want to wank on a floyd rose, or get a tele on.

If I could afford it, I might start bringing home the expensive models, but I would have to limit my moods to what I could afford. If I was making seven figures a year playing guitar, I could justify spending 10 grand on a guitar and another 20G's on a rig and changing it up every 3 or 4 months - but that's never going to happen for me.

I draw the line when people start to refer to objects as 'pieces'. Every now and then I'll hear someone say something like 'this tele is a nice piece' as if should be kept under glass and never get mungie. Also, when objects turn into 'pieces' they tend to get ridiculously over valued.

I've possesed a HD and I own two US made automobiles, one of which is rusted beyond recognition before its tenth birthday. Why people think that the US makes quality products is beyond my comprehension.


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## fretboard (May 31, 2006)

Anybody notice - and this is just for internet conversation's sake of course - but what a strange thread to start given the open-ended thread that was started in the "stolen gear" section of the forum.

Hmm, almost makes me wonder if I should be keeping an eye out in the Swap Meet area for some choice PRS guitars (which I do believe to be the most consistantly built US guitars across their line).

Just sayin' is all.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Diablo said:


> I know I'm reassured if the guy who puts the addition on my house is using DeWalt or Old Milwaukee tools vs. Black&Decker or Princess Auto's brand.


Huh? Do I have to buy Dewalt to impress you with my building skills? I won't buy Dewalt. All tools wear out, that is a fact. I am on my third random oribital sander @ 31 bux. No where near what the Dewalt is priced out at. I would have killed that one too. The money is in my pocket and I don't have to charge you extra for owning a Dewalt. There was a time before Dewalt too:smile:

I understand what you are trying to get at but it is not a fair comparison to guitars. It is really hard to wear out a guitar. The parts are changable. I don't think that a "vintage 9v Dewalt drill " market is going to start up very soon. 



My .02 on the PRS is that if I,like Hamm said, was needing to a write off maybe I would go for an expensive guitar. 

I own an older Tele. I have watched the value skyrocket. I decided this summer that playing in bars etc like I do, is no place to take this thing if I want to keep owning it. It's a cheap insurance policy. I have $300 into a gig guitar that sounds great.


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

I knew somebody would bring that up. :smile: Yes I know about the "Private Stock" guitars but as you say, you pretty much have to have either a LOT of money or be pretty famous.



iaresee said:


> That's not true. PRS has Private Stock and an Artist Relations Program that customizes guitars for you (if you're famous enough).


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

shoretyus said:


> *Huh? Do I have to buy Dewalt to impress you with my building skills? I won't buy Dewalt. All tools wear out, that is a fact. I am on my third random oribital sander @ 31 bux. No where near what the Dewalt is priced out at. I would have killed that one too. The money is in my pocket and I don't have to charge you extra for owning a Dewalt. There was a time before Dewalt too:smile:*
> I understand what you are trying to get at but it is not a fair comparison to guitars. It is really hard to wear out a guitar. The parts are changable. I don't think that a "vintage 9v Dewalt drill " market is going to start up very soon.
> 
> 
> ...


I hear what you are saying...in a perfect world we wouldnt form opinions or judgements on people by material things...but in reality we do. Image is important, if only subconsciously. Thats why the big banks have huge towers lined with marble and the client facing employees wear power suits...People wouldnt feel comfortable giving them thousands of dollars for investments if the deals were brokered at a Tim Hortons and the account rep showed up in white high tops and a Hawaiian t-shirt  So ya, if you're doing my reno, I'd feel somehow it were less likely that you were going to screw it up, if you showed up with professional grade tools (or at least you couldnt blame your tools ).
So off-topic examples aside, all I'm saying is, *in some camps* no, a great guitarist doesnt NEED an awesome looking axe to be great, but there's a certain image/expectation that goes along when ones gear matched their skills. 
The other camp, which I'm guessing you subscribe to, luvs to see the old EVH type player who sounds awesome, play on something that looks like it was built an hour before the show with duct tape and 2x4's  But in a way, thats just another type of image too, isnt it? Or maybe an "anti-image" a la grunge?


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## hoser (Feb 2, 2006)

I grew out of buying gear to impress people a very long time ago.


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## mario (Feb 18, 2006)

As you can see from my sig, I'm a big PRS fan. I bought them all used and not near the price tags as I have seen mentioned in the thread. I love everything about them....the wide fat neck carve just fits my hand perfectly. No dead notes on the fretboards. IMHO, the McCarty model is one of the greatest designs ever. They do everything I want and more. It's all apples and oranges....everyone is different.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Diablo said:


> The other camp, which I'm guessing you subscribe to, luvs to see the old EVH type player who sounds awesome, play on something that looks like it was built an hour before the show with duct tape and 2x4's  But in a way, thats just another type of image too, isnt it? Or maybe an "anti-image" a la grunge?



Not at all. The tool needs to function properly. A plane is just a piece of steel. The difference is how sharp it is. 

Read my signature. You can't make a Kimball organ sound like a B3. But what's the difference between a $1000 A100 and a $10,000 B3 ? $9000 of Bankers interest.


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## fretboard (May 31, 2006)

I'm fortunate enough to have a PRS (see GOTM thread) - and for me, it's exactly what I want in a guitar when I pick it up. It's not my only axe, and my Godin Artisan TC gets way more hours of play on it in any given week, but when I pick it up and plug it in, it's as much of an extension of my hands as I could hope for. 

Is it for everyone? I hope not. Did I have to save up for what wound up being a couple years to get it? You're darn tootin' I did. Did I want one when I was younger and learning to play and would see the ads in various guitar magazines? Not on your life, unless it was shaped like a BC Rich Mockingbird... Now that I've got around 25 years of playing into this little "hobbie" of mine, my days of putting up with exposed fret ends, crappy nuts, mediocre hardware and shoddy wiring, etc... are over, and it's been my experience that PRS guitars make sure I don't have to worry about those things.

By no means are they "the best" guitars out there - but I would suggest they're sorta like having a Mercedes in a "Ford vs. Chevy" competition. They're not the same, although they're similar. Kinda like saying I've got the same amount of hands, strings and frets as Hendrix did, so it shouldn't be too hard to make my playing sound like his.

Does my PRS make me a better player? No, not really - but then again when I play it, I'm right into my comfort zone. I'm at the point where I'll pay the money for that feeling everytime I pick it up. For me, I feel like I've paid my dues and earned it.

As for Mr. Lifeson going back to Gibson, I wouldn't assume that the recent Gibson Lifeson 335 signature guitar had any influence at all in that decision.


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## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

personally I have owned a few higher end guitars and I'll say the craftmanship that was put into them was impressive. But for some strange reason I feel better playing a simpler guitar, no fancy hardware, no flame top, just a nice piece of wood, fitted properly and setup properly and tweaked for the tone I like. It is a case of preference. One of my main players at the moment is an Ebay project find, body and neck, using the above setup and it's a great working guitar. I prefer to keep my more valued guitars at home for special occasions.


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## Guest (Feb 25, 2008)

iaresee said:


> konasexone, I have to ask: what were you hoping to achieve with this thread? That someone would convince you otherwise? That you'd get a bunch of like-minded individuals going "Yup. Me too."? In all my years in forums I really never understood these kinds of threads and why the continue to persist. I've never seen someone change their mind and camps because of a thread like this one.
> 
> Let me see if I can sum up this thread (and all the "Is <insert brand name> really worth the money?" posts to come): _it's completely subjective_.
> 
> Some people value what you get when you buy a PRS, some don't. Neither type of person can give anything but subjective opinions on the why or wherefore of their heart's desires. You spend your money where you think you get your best return and that differs significantly from person to person.


Objectivity. I'm waiting to see if someone can actually tell me why these guitars are so friggin expensive. So far what I've gotten is mostly opinion which is a great answer too, but, if no one can tell you exactly why the bottom of the line US sells for 2800 or so when other great playing guitars sell for considerably less I seriously begin to question my own temporary lust for them. I'm always amazed at how some companies build up their brand and manage to fetch such high prices.


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## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

With the US PRS guitars you know what you are getting. They have a rep to maintain and there builds are pretty well flawless. With the cheaper offshore models you have to search for the jem, and there are a few out there.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2008)

fretboard said:


> As for Mr. Lifeson going back to Gibson, I wouldn't assume that the recent Gibson Lifeson 335 signature guitar had any influence at all in that decision.


Alex was talking about the PRS -> Gibson switch in a Guitar Player last year (the one with him on the cover). He started using PRS' on the road because they were more stable and required less maintenance than his Gibsons. He thought they were a good compromise. He switched back because he was given some Gibsons that he thought were stable enough to tour with again. He still carries a roster of PRSi with him, but he's Gibson-endorsed again.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2008)

konasexone said:


> Objectivity.


Than ask an objective question. None of the following is asking for an objective answer:


konasexone said:


> Are PRS guitars the end of the world as many claim?...What's your opinion on these.(sic)


Now this is, but it isn't what you asked in your original post:


> I'm waiting to see if someone can actually tell me why these guitars are so friggin expensive.


Of course someone can. Objectively speaking here are but a few reasons an MiA PRS costs more than a MiK PRS:

Labour is probably the single largest contributor to the higher cost of an American made PRS than a Korean made PRS. You just can't pay an American-based worker $0.50 an hour. Loaded hourly wages for skilled labour is probably more like $40-$60/hour for PRS. Figure a guitar's manufacture takes ~20 manhours of labour and there's $800 right there you need to cover.
Materials are another big differentiator. A body-size, quality slab of mahogany is getting ever more expensive. Offshore guitars are made with many pieces of mahogany, glued together, which reduces costs considerably.
Quality control is also a big cost overhead. If your manufacturing standard are really strict (and I'd argue that MiA PRS' are a very consistent, high quality, manufactured product whether you like the feel of the guitar or not) you're tossing a lot of stuff away. Builds are scrapped mid-process because of some small flaw. There's more waste. Waste is expensive. Offshore builds, while much better than they've ever been, generally pass a less rigorous QC inspection. Just ask Hamm how much time he spends inspecting and setting up his offshore line up of guitars. The end result is, I'm told, worth all his time. But IIRC he said his burn rate can be pretty high. 1 in 5 at times (I'll try and find the thread where he said this...or Hamm, jump in here with some data if I'm way off base and mis-quoting you).
SG&A and R&D costs need to be covered. Someone has to _create_ these guitars and that costs a lot of money. Offshore operations aren't inventing the product, they're stamping out copies. You have to pay people to sit in rooms and think, try things, throw bad ideas away. The costs of running the company also have to be accounted for. PRS has a largely NA-based operation so that means all the non-manufacturing and non-R&D salaries are those high NA-type salaries, not those $0.50/hour offshore salaries. All of that gets added to the costs of the guitars.
Finally you have margins. As someone has already stated: the final costs and profit margins are largely based on what the market will bear. Clearly the market is responsive to PRS's American pricing. In a free market you push your margins as high as the market will bear, that's just good financial sense.
Those are just a few objective reasons for the disparity in the prices. These apply equally as well to Gibson v. Epiphone, MiA Fender v. MiK Squire or even MiM Fender, etc.



> So far what I've gotten is mostly opinion


But that's exactly what you asked for. You wanted to know if there was _value_ in spending more on an MiA PRS. Value is subjective.



> I'm always amazed at how some companies build up their brand and manage to fetch such high prices.


Why are you amazed? It's the free market strategy at it's finest.


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## Guest (Feb 26, 2008)

Hey, I got my answer regardless of how I phrased my question, didn't I? not to mention that it created a pretty good thread. Thanks.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

I have bought and sold a few pRS guitars...not really a fan of the line (US or Import) but I think the US ones just feel nicer. They are solid, are more even feeling and resonate better.

Personally if I were you I would go with a proper high end piece like a McNaught, Warrior or Heatley guitar. Dont toss 3K into an inferior 'high end' US guitar when that 3K can go into a true high end instrument.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Anyone should be able to tell why a quality guitar is more expensive than a budget guitar. Yes, the budget guitars have come along way quality wise, but so have the high end ones. PRS makes very fine guitars and the reason why people pay those prices is because they want an impeccible guitar. If the budget guitars were really comparable, they would be able to sell them for a comparable price, its just that simple. I dont play PRS anymore because they dont make a shred guitar, but they are truely kickass guitars. Changing the hardware on a budget guitar will not make it into a guitar of that level. If it did, no one would buy the high quality ones.........


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## faracaster (Mar 9, 2006)

Okay I just read through this excruiating thread. The wording of the original question was such that we already know what the person feels. Obviously the thread starter wanted someone to back him up in his opinion. In a court of law that would be called leading the witness.

Every one that has chimed in has given their personal account of their own take on PRS guitars. So Konasexone....tell me...why do you want to know our opinions? Do you feel, enlightened, vindicated, confused? Why do you think they are so "friggin' expensive"? What is your opinion? We wait with baited breath. What has this "pretty good thread" done for you?



Oh here's my 2 cents.....I think they represent the best value for money on the market (both US made and their Korean sisters). I love them. 

But that's my opinion. That's what suits my style of playing and the sound I hear in my head long before I ever strap one on at a gig. I know many people that have bought PRS guitars strictly on hearing me play mine in a club. Most have sold them sometime after, realising it wasn't their thing. For some reason I can play the shit out of PRS guitars in general. Up till 1990 I played Fenders, Strats mostly. Had an old Strat and blackface and brown Fender amps since I was in high school. Played most of my professional career with them. Then by the late 80's I was ripe for a change (just too many people playing the same gear). Tried everything imaginable back then, all the Gibby's, Ibanez, Hamer, Robin, Lado, BC Rich, Schecter, Charvel, many "put together" custom guitars etc, etc. Nothing stuck till one night playing at the Cameron House in 1990 and I borrowed a friend's PRS. It wasn't that I was blown away during the gig, it was after, the next day I realised that anything I wanted to do, I could. There was no roadblocks between my head, heart, fingers, and the notes coming out of my amp. Now mind you I wasn't playing in a power pop 3 minute tune act. I was playing in a much less structured, open, mostly instrumental band at the time with some very heavy players so, I was able to explore the guitar a little more than one usually does. 

But a word to those that actually care only about sound and feel. If you are considering a PRS, don't get blinded by the whole 10-top, birds, Artist series thing. Just get a PRS Standard or if you want a little more snap, than a non-10 maple top guitar. The pricing is VERY reasonable for what you get back. My US made PRS standards are still a mainstay for me at most gigs. But I play any number of guitars at a gig now. From Japanese Fender's to Gustavsson's to homemade beaters to vintage Gibson's to Korean PRS'. Just depends on who, what and where. Price is not a consideration.... sound and function are. I find I get one hell of a lot of sound and function out of my PRS. And I don't care if one other person does. They work for me.

Again just my opinion.


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

pattste said:


> I have an Epiphone Emperor Regent. I changed its pickup for a handmade Kent Armstrong Johnny Smith. I was very pleased with the result. This guitar played and sounded as good as a Gibson for 1/3 of the price. Then I bought a lightly-used Sheraton II and changed its pickups for Seymour Duncan Antiquity humbuckers, spectacular pickups (better than Gibson 57s, IMHO). Again, it played and sounded as good as a Gibson. Or so I thought.
> 
> Ok, I admit it. I was wrong.
> 
> ...


...and yet Kia produced the Lotus Elan for a couple of years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kia_Elan


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

iaresee said:


> Than ask an objective question. None of the following is asking for an objective answer:
> 
> 
> Now this is, but it isn't what you asked in your original post:
> ...


I doubt most PRS employees get paid 40-60$ an hour when the average North American autoworker earns something like 37.50$/hour (and you know how strong their unions are). 

Also, South Korean workers earn considerably more than 0.50 cents an hour (you need to tell the difference between South Korea and North Korea. There's a world of difference between South Korea and North Korea. Let's just say I've never seen as many luxury cars in New Brunswick as I've seen in South Korea). 

Many steps of the production of guitars are automated nowadays, so it takes considerably less than 20 man hours to make a guitar. I'd say one a guitar is in human hands for an hour or two tops.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

NB-SK said:


> Many steps of the production of guitars are automated nowadays, so it takes considerably less than 20 man hours to make a guitar. I'd say one a guitar is in human hands for an hour or two tops.


Depends on the shop. Small shops like the US facilities of Washburn or Hamer where about 100 guitars are made a month, use mostly hand work, so 2 hours might just cover the neck shaping. In a larger facility like a Samick plant where they produce 10,000 guitars a month, its about 10 minutes of hand work. There is a big difference in the people making the guitars too. In the small plant, they are all experts on luthery, whereas the big plant employs whatever they can get to run the machines. Does it look like the sample? Great, next!...........


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

NB-SK said:


> ...and yet Kia produced the Lotus Elan for a couple of years.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kia_Elan


I wonder why Kia would lower themselves to make those. Must have had excess plant capacity. Lotus are basically cheap kitcars, always have been...........


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## fretboard (May 31, 2006)

Still no follow up on the PRS thread that you started in the Stolen Gear Registry area the day before this thread??


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

NB-SK said:


> I doubt most PRS employees get paid 40-60$ an hour when the average North American autoworker earns something like 37.50$/hour (and you know how strong their unions are).


Iaresee specified the *loaded* labour rate, which is the total hourly cost to the company (including benfits, cost of plant etc), not just the salary paid to the employee. There tends to be a huge difference between the two in most companies.


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

bagpipe said:


> Iaresee specified the *loaded* labour rate, which is the total hourly cost to the company (including benfits, cost of plant etc), not just the salary paid to the employee. There tends to be a huge difference between the two in most companies.


My point was that South Korean workers earn a lot more than 50 cents an hour (heck, South Korean autoworkers earn just as much as their North American counterparts...and they pay far fewer taxes). I just think there's no excuse for not knowing the differences that exist between South Korea and North Korea.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

NB-SK said:


> I doubt most PRS employees get paid 40-60$ an hour when the average North American autoworker earns something like 37.50$/hour (and you know how strong their unions are).
> 
> Also, South Korean workers earn considerably more than 0.50 cents an hour (you need to tell the difference between South Korea and North Korea. There's a world of difference between South Korea and North Korea. Let's just say I've never seen as many luxury cars in New Brunswick as I've seen in South Korea).
> 
> Many steps of the production of guitars are automated nowadays, so it takes considerably less than 20 man hours to make a guitar. I'd say one a guitar is in human hands for an hour or two tops.



PRS posts jobs on their website and also lists pay rate...Sanders and other line workers start at $8 dollars an hour. It is a non union shop.


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

Accept2 said:


> I wonder why Kia would lower themselves to make those. Must have had excess plant capacity. Lotus are basically cheap kitcars, always have been...........


Maybe so, but the point I was making is that there are many cross-company partnerships between leading makers and lesser known ones. For example, Ssangyong, a Korean car maker that you've probably never heard of, had some of their engines and suspension designed by Mercedes (if I remember correctly).


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

Things are priced on three factors:

1. What it cost to build - the selling price will never be below this unless the company has folder or there is something wrong with the product and it is being blown out to cover some of the losses.

2. What the market will pay for it. Basically things are worth what consumers are willing to pay for them. 

3. Supply and demand. A small shop of artisans cannot compete with a single CNC machine in terms of output quantity. Quality is a different story, so some companies may remain small shop for the sake of quality. If the product is sucessful than demand outweighs supply and the price goes up. Sooner or later a larger corporation will purchase these companies and capitalize on their name and change their manufacturing process to something that is more efficient, at the expense of quality. This is the main reason (in my opinion) why older period instruments are usually said to be of better quality.

Consumers are largely responsible for the price of non-essential goods.

Hope this is what you were looking for.




konasexone said:


> Objectivity. I'm waiting to see if someone can actually tell me why these guitars are so friggin expensive. So far what I've gotten is mostly opinion which is a great answer too, but, if no one can tell you exactly why the bottom of the line US sells for 2800 or so when other great playing guitars sell for considerably less I seriously begin to question my own temporary lust for them. I'm always amazed at how some companies build up their brand and manage to fetch such high prices.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

NB-SK said:


> I doubt most PRS employees get paid 40-60$ an hour when the average North American autoworker earns something like 37.50$/hour (and you know how strong their unions are).


That's right: they probably don't pocket $40-60. That's why I said t_he loaded hourly costs of the employee_. That's what it costs the employer, per hour, to have that person work for them. Insurance, 401K contributions, vacation time accrual, health benefits (which are nuts for US employers), etc.

There's more to having a person in your employ than just the salary you pay them.



> Also, South Korean workers earn considerably more than 0.50 cents an hour


Regardless of what their oversea employees make it's still _at least_ order of magnitude less than their American equivalents. How can I say this with confidence? Because their import guitars are at least an order of magnitude less than their MiA guitars. They'd be selling them at a loss if they weren't. $80 total vs $800 total. It's not the number, it's the multiplier that matters. You're splitting hairs where they need not be split.



> Many steps of the production of guitars are automated nowadays, so it takes considerably less than 20 man hours to make a guitar. I'd say one a guitar is in human hands for an hour or two tops.


Having toured the PRS factory I'll say you are dead wrong here. In fact, 20 hours is a very conservative estimate on the amount of manhours that goes into a MiA PRS. The painting/sanding iterations alone amount to 2 hours of human hands on a guitar.


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## Guest (Feb 27, 2008)

Someone needs some one on one with his or her sex partner by the looks of this thread.:banana:


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Well at least your self diagnosis will save you on shrink bills......


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## mario (Feb 18, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Well at least your self diagnosis will save you on shrink bills......


....good one.:banana:


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2008)

Can I bring my banana?:banana:


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

iaresee said:


> *Regardless of what their oversea employees make it's still at least order of magnitude less than their American equivalents. How can I say this with confidence? Because their import guitars are at least an order of magnitude less than their MiA guitars.* They'd be selling them at a loss if they weren't. $80 total vs $800 total. It's not the number, it's the multiplier that matters. You're splitting hairs where they need not be split.
> 
> 
> Having toured the PRS factory I'll say you are dead wrong here. In fact, 20 hours is a very conservative estimate on the amount of manhours that goes into a MiA PRS. The painting/sanding iterations alone amount to 2 hours of human hands on a guitar.


That depends on the level of automation. I really doubt it takes the 20 hours you say it takes to make a MiA PRS to make their SE. 

It's not just how much you pay your employees, but also how much time it takes to produce an item and how many items that they produce per shift. 

Have you ever seen the insides of a Korean factory? I have, many times. It's just nuts how fast and accurately some of the most skilled workers work.


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

konasexone said:


> Can I bring my banana?:banana:


Nah, it's probably all soft, drippy and black.


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## Guest (Feb 29, 2008)

NB-SK said:


> That depends on the level of automation. I really doubt it takes the 20 hours you say it takes to make a MiA PRS to make their SE.


I have no idea how long it takes to make a guitar from their SE line. I've only seen the American factory. 



> It's not just how much you pay your employees, but also how much time it takes to produce an item and how many items that they produce per shift.
> 
> Have you ever seen the insides of a Korean factory? I have, many times. It's just nuts how fast and accurately some of the most skilled workers work.


I have no idea what you're trying to say here. What does the inside of a Korean manufacturing facility have to do with the costs of an MiA PRS?


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## FrogRick12 (Feb 21, 2006)

My .02

I have always wanted to like PRS guitars because they are beautiful to look at but every time I plug one in, they just don't do it for me. Kind of generic sounding and cold feeling.

I was jonesing for a gold McCarty for the longest time but I cannot justify that kind of dough for a set neck guitar with no binding.

Just my opinion...


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