# Local Luthiers & builders - a bit of a rant



## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

I've been interested in buying a high end acoustic guitar for some time. I have a good chunk of money allocated to my "toys" account, and i had this crazy idea that i'd be one of those people who supported local builders and didn't pay the premium to have gibson, martin or taylor on my headstock. I'm not going to lie, part of the reason i got the idea was because i've been brainwashed into believing that you pay an extra chunk of money for the name.

By all means, prove me wrong, point me in the right direction, or whatever, but so far my experience has been that a high end guitar from an unknown builder costs more than a high end guitar from a reputable company. What gives? I've clicked every link on the "canadian builders" section on here, and while i'm not going to argue the visual appeal of what they're selling, I am going to say that it would be a cold day in hell when i spend 4 grand on a no name guitar.

Am I not getting this right? are the prices they list on their websites the equivalent of "MSRP" and the actual price is 60% lower? because that would make sense. I would spend 2 grand on a well built, locally hand crafted guitar...but 4 grand for something that looks like a martin but isn't? fuck off.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

there are three differences.

1) China.
2) Mass Production.
3) Artist.

"Name" branded items from long time players have sealed contracts in quantity purchases from various factories but the ultimate source really is China for the vast majority of it.

The "private" builder doesn't have 1 and 2 going for him or her. They also are not making 100's a year, maybe one or two a month. And even though you could say to them "look you can make 100 a month and drop your sale price" you will run head first into "I am an artist and ..."


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

I should note, this is what I have seen and heard of acoustic builders. Not solid body electric builders. There are a few "omg how much" electric builders but for the most part from what I have seen posted they are not unreasonable.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

I will concede the "artist" argument for companies like blueberry, who legitimately turn guitars into works of art, but even their prices are more reasonable than some of the ones i've just seen. if you're building a commonly shaped guitar with an ultra high level of quality, that makes you a great builder but no more of an artist than someone playing paint by numbers.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

And with that I agree fully. Luthier IS an art, but so is Auto Body Repair. Both come from training, and attention to detail and you can aspire to become 'recognised' in the field by having the artistry to bring it together. But you don't have to be an artist really, you just need to be a competent individual at the job at hand.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

it might take months to build the guitar you want.
and a builder will spend a lot of extra effort and time on it,
for the sake of reputation.
fancy woods used, attention to detail, bling, that takes time.
thats where the money goes.

you have entered a strange place.
nobody wants to make a regular guitar anymore.
everythings got to be perfect.
far above the standards of a mass produced guitar.

i cant really relate, because i prefer my acoustics to sound cheap.
and for that only cheap guitars will do.
but i understand wanting to own something special


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Gibson, Martin, and Taylor still enjoy the benefits of mass production, even in their "high end" and "custom" stuff. My rule of thumb for _all_ craftsmen is: If they seem expensive, but you have to get on a waiting list to hire them, then they are probably not expensive.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

I can understand that, but from a consumer point of view i still don't see any point in paying extra because they don't make guitars as efficiently. I'm a tradesman which isn't too far away from being a craftsman, and i know damn well that the people who hire me don't give 2 shits whether or not i can hire cheap labour and get my material at a discount, so long as the end result is the same and at a better price than the established companies. After all, I could go under long before my warranty is up - dealing with someone who hasn't proven his stability is a gamble. This means I don't make as much money as the "big guys" but it's the difference between working and being laughed at when i go to make my sales pitch.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

A luthier that I know told me that he was asked something along the lines of "how do you make a good guitar?" His answer was "make 100 bad ones". Obviously a somewhat tongue-in-cheek answer but the point is you don't become a high end builder on your first try. It takes years of of experience and trial and error to put together anything that would be considered "high end". If you think you can put together a high end acoustic by merely being "competent" then all I can suggest is go for it! Take that $2000 and see how far it gets you. Who knows, you might get lucky.

Perhaps after discovering how much time, tools and material goes into making a high end guitar the price per hour may not seem out of line when dealing with a small volume luthier. That's not to say $4000 is accessible to most people. It clearly is a niche market and only builders of some repute could pull it off but if you wanna play...


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

If you've assumed that I had planned on taking 2000$ and using it to buy the material needed to build myself a guitar, you're quite mistaken. I fully intend on using it to pay for the fruit of someone else's labour. But in your counter argument, you've actually strengthened my initial argument. How many guitars would you say a small volume luthier makes per year? 4? 6? 8? shall I be on the lookout for 90 year old luthiers who have finally perfected the trade? Did you not just imply that buying a guitar from someone without a solid name in the industry is a huge gamble?


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Not the use of competent that I intended. The example I can think of to illustrate what I mean is with figure skaters. Nancy Kerrigan vs Oksana Baiul. There is no question both these ladies were capable skaters. They were well trained and knew what they were doing. In that, they were both competent skaters. The difference between them was one of artistry. Oksana had an artisty that Nancy lacked and so Oksana took gold. Now, in the Olympics and in that level of competition the artistry is a vital part of the skating, not just the competence. In the greater stage of skate performance (stars on ice et al) you need the competence but the artistry is not paramount.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

really, I see almost no relevance to artistry...it takes talent in construction, that's it that's all. you read blueprints, you follow blueprints, and the only creative influence necessary when following a design that you didn't invent is which pieces of wood to use. Granted, you can go all out like the people at blueberry who hand carve unique designs into their guitars, and if that's what i was looking for i'd have much less of an argument, but it's not.

I'll say it again for the last time - If you're an unknown company making a copy of a design that is only marginally different from every other copy of the design, charging more than the recognized "top of the line" builders is poor business practice and borderline insane.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I've had 6 acoustic guitars made for me. Each one was ordered with specific characteristics from builders who I had checked out thoroughly. One was already a well known name in luthier circles, another was a new builder who needed a break (though now he's pretty well established). None of these guitars were available from the factory builders. I'm picky, feel I've earned the guitars I want, and could afford them at the time of purchase. I also like to watch my guitars being built, like contributing to their design, like having what suits my purposes. In every case I feel I got my money's worth and the builder's prices have risen significantly since I bought, making it easy to resell at a profit...though none of them are for sale. 

I don't spend a penny on booze, smokes, gambling, drugs, boats that don't float, cars that don't leave the garage, loose women, or many other hobbies (except music, fishing, and carpentry), so some extra cash spent on the one thing that makes me happy (other than regular sex I suppose) isn't much to ask. Many of my other instruments were acquired for significantly less than retail or street price so some savings are redirected to the instruments that cost a premium. I save, budget, shop, consider and re-consider, confer, choose, and in the end get a well-considered, well-built, great sounding and attractive guitar that sounds glorious. Also in that package is the gratitude of the builder, their (so far) great follow-up service, and some small degree of "future considerations" ie, consideration as a repeat customer.

Also in the collection are 4 one-off instruments (2 mandolins, and electric, and another acoustic guitar) that weren't made specifically for me but are nonetheless stellar instruments. In each case it would be hard to get anything like as good an instrument from a factory builder for the same money, though I admit these are exceptions...which is kinda why I bought them, besides that they suit my needs.

I'm not slagging the very many stellar axes being made by the big names. The number of such guitars I've been truly impressed by is staggering (I spent several years controlling instrument lockup and hanging backstage at a folk festival which is a GREAT place to sample the good stuff), but every time I'm tempted I go home to what I have and realize again that I've got what suits me.

Yup, small shop luthier built guitars are expensive, but that's how I get what I want. I suspect that I'll probably not buy more than another one or two in my life, being pretty much set.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

mike_oxbig said:


> If you've assumed that I had planned on taking 2000$ and using it to buy the material needed to build myself a guitar, you're quite mistaken. I fully intend on using it to pay for the fruit of someone else's labour. But in your counter argument, you've actually strengthened my initial argument. How many guitars would you say a small volume luthier makes per year? 4? 6? 8? shall I be on the lookout for 90 year old luthiers who have finally perfected the trade? Did you not just imply that buying a guitar from someone without a solid name in the industry is a huge gamble?


I wasn't assuming that at all. I was merely pointing out that if you think $2000 should easily get you a locally built high end acoustic you aught to work out what doing it yourself would cost if only as a mental exercise before coming down on these guys. A long winded way of saying "put yourself in their shoes". 

Huge gamble? Maybe, maybe not. Like anything you'd spend serious money on, you gotta do your homework. Supposedly the brand names bring a certain level of quality expectation but even they get a lot of flack (rightly or wrongly) from people for being more costly than they're worth. Depending on the luthier's reputation and care for his craft he may give you much more personalized service and follow up should you ever need it. 

If these independent guys are charging $4000 and getting on a consistent basis then it's up to the potential consumer to determine whether they see what the builders' previous customers see and pay the money. Obviously you haven't seen that at this point and that's cool. Looks like you're stuck with the "name brands". 

When a guy puts 200 hours into building a guitar (not unusual from what I've heard) $2000 amounts to $10/hr. He doesn't have the benefit of the mass producers' tools, jigs, finishing systems etc to build in volume. If you want him to produce a high end guitar for you don't expect him to do it just "for the love" or else prepare to be disappointed. 

If a local custom builder doesn't get $4000 for his work they can only do one of two things, lower the price or stop selling all together. Anything that would be reasonably considered a high end guitar probably is considered so by reputation or examination by someone skilled and experienced enough to know. 
Aside from that you're taking a chance on a new builder and you may get lucky and find a guy who's very talented but hasn't garnered enough rep to charge more than you wanna pay. I'm sure they exist but unless you wish to take the time to hunt for just such a combination you're left with brand names or expensive customs. 

The argument, if there is one here is the age old one of perceived value. That's been done to death and I find them too circular and ultimately a waste of time. I'm in no position nor do have the desire to change anyone's mind. We all use our personal experiences and filters to make purchase decisions and no one has universal insight. I only wanted to speak up for and help to justify (to some extent) independent craftsmen who put a lot of time, effort and money into their craft and price the fruits of their labour it as they see fit. No doubt that route is not for everyone but the market takes care of prices regardless of how many pages in the forum the "they're worth it, they ain't worth it" arguments go.

I wish you well in finding a guitar that speaks to you wherever you may find it, after all, that's why we're here eh?


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

The auction company objected to my posting the pictures.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

If you weren't looking for a high end instrument I'd sympathize but if you can find one for $4k you've done well. That's just how it is. Now, there probably is lots of shite at that price too, but that also is how it is.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

There is a local show coming in June featuring local builders

Luthiers’ Showcase & Guitar Festival |


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

mike_oxbig said:


> really, I see almost no relevance to artistry...it takes talent in construction, that's it that's all. you read blueprints, you follow blueprints, and the only creative influence necessary when following a design that you didn't invent is which pieces of wood to use. Granted, you can go all out like the people at blueberry who hand carve unique designs into their guitars, and if that's what i was looking for i'd have much less of an argument, but it's not.
> 
> I'll say it again for the last time - If you're an unknown company making a copy of a design that is only marginally different from every other copy of the design, charging more than the recognized "top of the line" builders is poor business practice and borderline insane.


Granted, there are some builders who do as you describe, but the best ones, and most of the struggling ones, stretch the parameters of design far beyond the established designs. If what a customer wants is a D-18, for example, they should simply buy a D-18 or one of the many very similar guitars from many other big name factory builders. But if what they want is a guitar that suits requirements outside of established designs, they will have an easier time getting what they want from a luthier who can create what they want. 

There is art, physics, design, and fine woodworking involved in drawing one's own blueprints, shifting braces, finding the sweet spot for side sound holes, balancing design/cosmetic elements, designing and making rossettes and other inlays, balancing body shape and interior volume, choosing wood combinations, not over or under bracing the top and back, etc, just some of the things luthiers have done for and with me. To do all these sorts of things consistently without failure requires both art and skill....besides time and money, good sources for tools and parts, etc.

One builder I know has also designed and built many of his tools from scratch, and cuts all his own wood pieces, unlike some others whobuy parts partly milled and still others who basically do modest modifications to kits. The scratch builders blow my mind because they do nearly everything from almost lumberjacking to sunburst finishes and everything in between. I've seen stacks of raw logs in shops that blow my mind. One of my 12 string machine head buttons was cracked from the factory so the builder just made another one to match rather than waiting for a reorder, and damned if I can tell which one isn't a Schaller. It was nothing to him of course, just a shrug and "It was easier.". 

I was lucky enough to get most of my luthier built guitars from builders before their prices started to reflect their worth, and I've promoted their work everywhere.

Peace, Mooh.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

I think the issue is:

You take two 500 dollar piles of wood and you hand them to two builders. Both builders use the same blue prints for building with, with the same tools and have been at it the same number of years. One finished build the builder then says "here is your 7,500 dollar high end guitar" and the other says "here is your 2,300 dollar high end guitar".

Yes, you can compare what goes in and what comes out this way. You can find guitars with this kind of price range from luthiers. Yes you can find this on what really is an established set of blueprints for building these instruments. I think you may feel or see a difference between them, both built by competent craftsmen yes, one with a touch for artistry and one without. In a dark room filled with blind folk I would challenge anyone to hear the artistry in a guitar. If you can, then I would say the 7K and more is money spent well (and I know you can with violins because it has been done LOL).

AND (as he posted as I was typing) yes as Mooh says too, an artist can customize, tweek and expand on those established designs. An artistic luthier can change the mix subtly and gain from the wood different tone, different voicing and can bring a player a "sound they hear in their heads". 7,500 for that is pretty good I think, but for a more general "build me a guitar" that you don't need or want a lot of fuss used in making just make it as it is made then 2,300 is pretty good.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

:C and no, all that wild mojo is not for me. 7,500 is low for what I want, but nothing to do with artistry and everything to do with the designs being very old and there being no modern skill with them (its a dream that wont ever be but I will still dream it). In a guitar, all the 'character' that may be there is lost to me. Between hearing loss and tinnitus I am often just happy I can hear as well as I can


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Did you contact this guy? He's in Ontario and he's well spoken of at the Acoustic Guitar forum. His prices are very reasonable:

Neil Gardiner Guitars


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## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

A casual acquaintance from a long time ago.
Manzer Guitars - Linda Manzer
I see she is still doin' her thing. Good stuff.
Cheers. D.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

What should be offensive is the factory produced guitars that sell for thousands of dollars, not the one hand made by an individual craftsman.



If one doesn't appreciate and recognize the value of a handmade instrument (or anything really) then clearly that instrument is not for them.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

bagpipe said:


> Did you contact this guy? He's in Ontario and he's well spoken of at the Acoustic Guitar forum. His prices are very reasonable:
> 
> Neil Gardiner Guitars


that's what I had in mind, style and price range, almost exactly. I'll look into him, thank you.

There have been some respectable arguments coming back at me, and i do understand why custom made guitars can sell for as much as they do, but i'm not talking about going to a guy and saying "take as long as you need to build me the EXACT guitar i'm looking for" i'm talking about looking at the "for sale" section of these local builders and commenting on the prices of the prefabricated ones that were built for nobody in particular. Like it or not, that's factory territory and if you can't compete with factory efficiency, DON'T.

BTW, on most of the "big player" websites you can custom order your own guitar. I made the exact guitar I would be after on the martin website and it came to about 4500, with the most recognized name in the industry attached to it as well as a lifetime warranty from a company that will still be around in 50 years. There comes a time when supporting local business is a foolish investment. 

I think, mooh, you were fortunate enough to find builders who weren't in the awkward stage of being too big for their britches, while not yet being able to buy new britches. That's what i'd like to find.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Mooh said:


> I was lucky enough to get most of my luthier built guitars from builders before their prices started to reflect their worth, and I've promoted their work everywhere.


Except I forgot to include the links:

Welcome to Beneteau Guitars
House Guitars | Custom Acoustic Guitars
Moon Guitars
Peter cox

Somewhat as an aside to the discussion...

There is an incredible fraternity among the luthiers in Canada and elsewhere. I've found mutual support and referrals between them several times. Linda Manzer was very forthcoming with information when I called her to spec out a baritone. I was wanting to try a different builder even though I was happy with the previous one (and she had great things to say about him). I was up front with her when it came to price and when I decided she was out of my range, she still called me back with ideas for whomever was to build it, already knowing she wasn't going to make any money from me. I've never encountered the hard sell approach from these folks either. Before I even ordered from Marc Beneteau I spent half a day in his shop. Josh House regularly puts up with me dropping by, and I know several more elder builders have befriended him. Peter Cox patiently waited several years before I bought a mandolin, and he's willing to discuss enthusiastically the work of others. I've never met Jim Moon personally (he's in Scotland, I think we have common acquaintances) but we exchanged several friendly emails. I have a Tele that was at least partly built by Dave Wren, and you won't find many gentlemen builders as fine as he. 

I'm hoping to get something from Ron Belanger http://www.belangerguitars.com/ sometime, as I've played several cool instruments of his. 

One of my biggest regrets is that I didn't get a resonator from my friend Ernie King. He's gone now.

That's it for the name-dropping for now, but before I leave it I'll say that I was prepared to personally like builders before I ever dealt with them and none of them have disappointed me.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

mike_oxbig said:


> that's what I had in mind, style and price range, almost exactly. I'll look into him, thank you.
> 
> There have been some respectable arguments coming back at me, and i do understand why custom made guitars can sell for as much as they do, but i'm not talking about going to a guy and saying "take as long as you need to build me the EXACT guitar i'm looking for" i'm talking about looking at the "for sale" section of these local builders and commenting on the prices of the prefabricated ones that were built for nobody in particular. Like it or not, that's factory territory and if you can't compete with factory efficiency, DON'T.
> 
> ...


I understand your point. However, builders have to produce product in order to get their name out there and have representative examples of their work. When there aren't orders, they still have to produce, hoping the guitars will find a buyer. 

Peace, Mooh.


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

My experience is in the classical guitar world, not steel-strings, but guitars made by Marcus Dominelli, Darryl Perry, or any of the De Jonge family completely blow away any factory guitar out there. Hand-made classicals aren't more expensive because of inefficient building methods. They're more expensive because they sound far better. I don't know if that applies to the steel-string world too. Do you know anyone who has a guitar made by any of the builders you're considering? Play it and then decide what it might be worth compared to the "brand-name" guitars you're used to.


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

I am kind of at a loss here as I do not understand really what it is you are trying to get across here Mike your argument towards a hand built is lost to me. Just because a luthier has a pre built why should it be cheaper. Its not like he has spent less time making it and may have done so for a showing or just to show folks he can build other models then what may show on his web site. 
When they attend the NAMM shows they will take either proto types or may do something that they thought out that no one had ordered as most wouldn't take someones build with them unless they are going to be at the show to pick it up.
And yes you can custom order a Martin for around $4500.00 with a life time guarantee, but what you won't get is a custom top that has been through hours of tapping to make sure that it is just right nor will you get bracing that should make that top sing even better. What you will get from Martin is a guitar that comes pre piece made ( in other words the top is picked from a pile and the sides are already pre-cut along with the back and all of the bracing is pre cut with a bit of work to them after the assembly, maybe ) and most of the pieces have been machined instead of hand carved. 
So at the end of the day its all about what sound you want and why you want it. Nothing wrong with having a pre built but is that the sound you want or the way it plays , it may have been built for a picker and not a purcussion tapping player. So really at the end of the day you get what you pay for and what you need and do remember that there are no real guarantee's a person could go by the way side just as well as a company.ship


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## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

I have never had the opportunity to order a custom made guitar.
I do know that I would want to test drive a selection of previously made guitars and buy one of those.
Without a doubt.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

keeperofthegood said:


> I think the issue is:
> 
> You take two 500 dollar piles of wood and you hand them to two builders. Both builders use the same blue prints for building with, with the same tools and have been at it the same number of years. One finished build the builder then says "here is your 7,500 dollar high end guitar" and the other says "here is your 2,300 dollar high end guitar".
> 
> ...


There's artistry and then there's artistry. You won't hear the dragon inlaid on the head but you can hear the wood selection and construction. Some luthiers build better sounding instruments given the same blueprints because they will, even using the same brace layout, shave the bracing in a different manner, they will select the wood for tone, and I don't mean by species but by individual board and they will finish the guitar in a manner that doesn't diminish the tone. To me that is artistry as well and is why certain luthiers are sought after.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

I don't mean to be purposely argumentative with everyone in here, but some of the stuff i'm hearing just seems illogical. Martin will build a custom guitar with sub par wood and bracing? They're just as likely to go under as a small, non incorporated company? I doubt that.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

kat_ said:


> My experience is in the classical guitar world, not steel-strings, but guitars made by Marcus Dominelli, Darryl Perry, or any of the De Jonge family completely blow away any factory guitar out there. Hand-made classicals aren't more expensive because of inefficient building methods. They're more expensive because they sound far better. I don't know if that applies to the steel-string world too. Do you know anyone who has a guitar made by any of the builders you're considering? Play it and then decide what it might be worth compared to the "brand-name" guitars you're used to.


In my experience, yes, it usually applies to steel strings too.

Peace, Mooh.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

hummingway said:


> There's artistry and then there's artistry. You won't hear the dragon inlaid on the head but you can hear the wood selection and construction. Some luthiers build better sounding instruments given the same blueprints because they will, even using the same brace layout, shave the bracing in a different manner, they will select the wood for tone, and I don't mean by species but by individual board and they will finish the guitar in a manner that doesn't diminish the tone. To me that is artistry as well and is why certain luthiers are sought after.


Understood, but again it's part of the gamble, because the consensus seems to be that anything completely hand crafted is automatically given more care and attention than something that was machine cut and hand assembled. coming from a realist that's not always true...hell that's not even usually true. when's the last time you saw a hand crafted tire, or car, or plane. taking out as much room for error as possible isn't a bad thing, or you're likely to end up with one of those 100 bad trial and error guitars.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

This is an interesting thread with many valid points of view. On one hand we have old world hand craftsmanship, and on the other we have the consistency of machinery. My view is, you play what you love that is within your budget (all of which is purely subjective). I would love a handcrafted 5 figure instrument, or a high end brand name, but either way, the guitar would not be given justice with my abilities.


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

Nobody said that the wood is sub par from Martin but the wood is not picked through by an employee nor is the bracing done to compliment the top which has hours of tapping and shaving to just get the right sound Martin has a machine that does it for them so each model will be made the exact same way.
Oh and your tire arguement didn't work for me as I just had to return to the tire store anmd have a tire replaced because the side wall let go.
And if you want something different then get a handbuilt if you want something that everyone else has go ahead but it seems that your hypothosis may not carry the same weight for all things.ship


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

I'll give you this much, ship, i just got back from long & mcquades here in ottawa and about 3/4 of the 2000$ + guitars left a lot to be desired. If this is their selection i wouldn't shop there even if their 0% financing was -10% financing. one of the 2800$ gibsons had a half dozen knots and flaws in the wood, another had a piece broken out of mother of pearl fret inlay, the only larrivee they had was set up to have constant fret buzz, and the only martin i liked was a lefty. I also wasn't impressed with any of the taylors except the DN8, which sounded good but looked boring. I guess there is something to be said about being selective about the pieces of wood used, but i'd still rather look at a dozen different hummingbirds (for example) until i found one that suited me instead of asking someone to build a hummingbird-like guitar for more than the original would cost and hope it's good.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

mike_oxbig said:


> I'll give you this much, ship, i just got back from long & mcquades here in ottawa and about 3/4 of the 2000$ + guitars left a lot to be desired. If this is their selection i wouldn't shop there even if their 0% financing was -10% financing. one of the 2800$ gibsons had a half dozen knots and flaws in the wood, another had a piece broken out of mother of pearl fret inlay, the only larrivee they had was set up to have constant fret buzz, and the only martin i liked was a lefty. I also wasn't impressed with any of the taylors except the DN8, which sounded good but looked boring. I guess there is something to be said about being selective about the pieces of wood used, but i'd still rather look at a dozen different hummingbirds (for example) until i found one that suited me instead of asking someone to build a hummingbird-like guitar for more than the original would cost and hope it's good.


Unless you know that the luthier has a peerless reputation for the tone _you are looking for_ I would agree. You need to listen in either case, though there are luthiers that you cn count on to produce a superior instrument and you will have to pay, and probably wait, for their services. I have more often experienced not liking a single instrument in a room full of quality name brand guitars then have found one that made me go wow. I have played expensive hand made instruments and had the same experience. 

In many cases I imagine that it can be a moving target. I was living in Santa Cruz when the Santa Cruz Guitar Company was just getting going. They were a couple of luthiers working hard to understand, and succeeding at, how to build high quality guitars. The guitars built by Hoover were exceptional sounding instruments. I think they are still a quality guitar but now they make 500 or something a year so that personal attention to detail and Hoover's ear aren't what you get. The story goes that they trained some of the best luthiers in the business and that may well be but who knows? I'd want to hear a bunch before picking one I think.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

I love this site. The guy is really into acoustics and finds the good ones. Here's a $4500 instrument from a home grown builder: Dream Guitars- Fine Handcrafted Instruments, Vintage Guitars, Classical Guitars, Electric Guitars, Mandolins in Asheville, North Carolina


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

hummingway said:


> I love this site. The guy is really into acoustics and finds the good ones. Here's a $4500 instrument from a home grown builder: Dream Guitars- Fine Handcrafted Instruments, Vintage Guitars, Classical Guitars, Electric Guitars, Mandolins in Asheville, North Carolina


Yeah, I'd love this one: Dream Guitars- Fine Handcrafted Instruments, Vintage Guitars, Classical Guitars, Electric Guitars, Mandolins in Asheville, North Carolina

Peace, Mooh.


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## cbg1 (Mar 27, 2012)

not sure what canadian builders you've checked but, laskin (although the inlays are a bit too much for me) , manzer , and graf are hardly no name guitar builders....i figure every companies guitar is pretty much fair value compared to the next companies when you are compare similar instruments.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

A few yrs ago I was in the market for a nice acoustic. My local shop had a wonderful selection of Martins, Taylors & other high end guitars. After many, many visits I settled on a gently used Thompson. Canadian made, had the best tone/playability in the room & well under $3K. 

+1 for handmade


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

Well i've been sold on a martin. Spent most of the day driving around to various music stores, from downtown to kempville, and fell in love with a basic martin at international musicland (which by the way was the only store i didn't leave while shaking my head...i'd 100% recommend them, great staff and great selection)

DCPA4

Nice woods, nice feel, nice electronics, nothing else. no mother of pearl, abalone, inlays, etc... just wood and strings. and tuners i suppose. i was shocked to find out it was nearly a grand under my budget. the wife insisted i sleep on it but i'll be back tomorrow to seal the deal.

I guess after my frustrating experience today trying to find a good guitar among bad good guitars, I can say I have a little more respect for the people who take the time to make sure every good guitar is a good guitar. If i was to ever buy one though it wouldn't be custom made for me, it would be "let me play some guitars you've made and then make my decision", and that doesn't quite fly with most of the small time builders with minimal stock.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Gotta go with what fits


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

mike_oxbig said:


> Well i've been sold on a martin. Spent most of the day driving around to various music stores, from downtown to kempville, and fell in love with a basic martin at international musicland (which by the way was the only store i didn't leave while shaking my head...i'd 100% recommend them, great staff and great selection)


Try Mill Music in Renfrew... he had a good stock of older used Martins in there last winter.. a 72 D 18 I woulda grabbed but I didn't know where your cookie jar was ... 

9kkhhd


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

shoretyus said:


> Try Mill Music in Renfrew... he had a good stock of older used Martins in there last winter.. a 72 D 18 I woulda grabbed but I didn't know where your cookie jar was ...
> 
> 9kkhhd


shoot, that's the store i was trying to think of...it was recommended to me months ago but i never got around to going, then i forgot the name. instead of mill music i ended up at class axe, who sell "brand new" guitars in worse condition than i'd expect to find used on kijiji.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Roryfan said:


> I few yrs ago I was in the market for a nice acoustic. My local shop had a wonderful selection of Martins, Taylors & other high end guitars. After many, many visits I settled on a gently used Thompson. Canadian made, had the best tone/playability in the room & well under $3K.
> 
> +1 for handmade


I babysat a Thompson for a year for a friend. I was afraid I'd damage it if I took it out, but when he played it the thing was positively alive. I don't think I'm in his will.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Hopefully money will find me and I will be in the market for a 12 string. As I am just a noodler I will be budget conscious, but I still want a decent guitar. I hope the journey to find it is not too frustrating. The first thing I intend on looking at are the Simon and Patricks (and associated brands) as I think they are great guitars for the money. I love my S&P 6 that I got about 15 years ago. Naturally, used guitars will be on the list too. Contrary to the "hand built" crowd, I have always liked Ovations too, so they will be on the "try out" list.


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## Gary787 (Aug 27, 2011)

FWIW I think CNC machines that use computer driven hardware to accuratley create guitar parts is not necessarily a bad thing. High end North American produced guitars from reputable manufacturers using this process along with their highly skilled craft employees are worth every penny you can afford. The stand alone luthier produces a specialty product for a special consumer. Sometimes a wealthy discerning musician and sometimes a collector of one of a kind instruments. Sometimes just a rich person with cash to blow on special bling. Me, I am happy with my flock of Seagulls though after viewing Bob Taylor's video on sustainable ebony I kind of want a Taylor just to show some support for an ethical business enterprise.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Gary787 said:


> ... and sometimes a collector of one of a kind instruments...


There are some guitars that are 'historic' in that they did once upon a time exist, and may still exist in some antiquarians drawers of vintage papers but otherwise only appear in paintings today. To me, a luthier would be the person that can go by maybe just a painting and an understanding of how things were done during an era and from that alone build an instrument.


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## guitarelic (Oct 24, 2011)

Mike: Please get back to me at [email protected]. Ihave a 'HOG DREAD from asmall maker in NASHVILLE, Fred Welker and would like to sell this to buy an old GUILD that I've spotted. GRUHN'S W-site has some pix of this guitar and I can send some others. The guitar is 10 yrs old and has started (I.M.H.O.) to open up nicely. I'm the 2nd owner and have put $$$ into it to deal with prob.'s that came with it when I bought it. This box has some minor cosmetic faults so that if perfect appearance/display is your style, don't bother. If, however, top quality woods, lam.bracing (Manzer style) and such-like interest you, I'll save you some$$ on aV/good custom built PLAYERS guitar. F.Y.I.: Kottke, Kaukonen,Fahey are my kind a guys. Play on my man!!


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

I understand your point Mike, and it makes sense from a business perspective, but in my view and experience, I think you have it backwards. I think the big names are way over priced and in recent years have been charging 'boutique' prices for some of their 'custom' series and high end models that don't begin to compare from the standpoint of build quality and tone to the small custom builders' products in most cases. 

That is not to say you won't find a decent big company guitar that suits you, but in general I think they are way over-priced. 

I was just at Long & McQuade yesterday trying all the 2K+ acoustic guitars and they were all seriously flat except for one Martin model, but it was not worth the 3K they were asking. 

I had the same experience with tube amps, I had several 'boutique' models that were light years ahead of the so called high end Marshalls and other big names in tone and build quality, and in the same price range! 

and I also think the term 'artist' and 'artistry' are used too liberally in these contexts, we are talking about _craftsmanship_ here, that may have small elements of 'artistry' involved in some aspects of the design. 

and that, my friends, is my contribution/rant to the topic. Happy playing!


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## Bluedog (Mar 13, 2012)

Mike, check out the new Kamloops-made Riversong Guitars for under $1000 I posted in the Dealer Emporium. They have done exactly what you requested in your posts to increase efficiencies to create an affordable product. That said, I also have great respect for the luthiers who hand-build and after seeing what's involved in the building process at many small shops, I honestly believe every one I have met is in it for the love of the instrument, not the money. If you ever get an opportunity to visit a small luthier's shop, do it! A very eye-opening experience.


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## stringer (Jun 17, 2009)

To the thread starter: I was just about to make my own thread with a similar theme. This will do. I think that both the manufactures and private luthiers are impacted by and use "the cult of personality" With the big names i.e. Taylor, Martin, etc... charging prices wayyyy above production costs because they can, because everybody has heard of them and most players lust for them....because of their reputation. How many times have you heard " i'm saving up for my first Martin..... they have never even played one, but they know they want one. The same can be said of luthiers. They start out hungry and maybe sell their first few guitars for a loss, but if they produce a quality product word gets around and the next thing you know, BOOM, the cult of personality kicks into gear and the next thing you know these guitars are selling for 5k. It kinda pisses me off, but I can't articulate why....probably just cuz I'm a poor working stiff(i'd be thrilled if I got in on the ground floor, like some other lucky posters on this thread). If folks are willing to pay, than its not the luthiers fault, it's nobodys fault, it's just the market. In my mind I can't justify anything from manufacturers in the plus 4k range...materials and labor just don't add up and to be frank, until just a few years ago I had never heard of Martin or Taylor so all I see is an overpriced guitar.(the top end ones) I went to a luthier and had my old yamaha 12 string tweaked. I was very happy with the end result, while others never would have bothered, saving their money to buy something else. It's all very subjective. Have you considered a Mackenzie Marr? S**t, I need an editor. You follow? oh yeah, can anyone tell me is 200 hours a normal amount of time to build 1 guitar? It sounds like a lot to me. That's 5 weeks work solid for 1 guitar. That's a big bill even at a modest 20$/hour.

Cheers.


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## Bill Scheltema (May 16, 2011)

This is a great thread, its nice to see so many perspectives.
I am not an acoustic builder but an electric guitar builder, I don't call myself a luthier per-se but more a wood engineering craftsman. In this day and age its nearly impossible to improve on whats already been designed, theres just too much history behind us.
There is a way to select wood, there is a way to glue wood, there is a way to sand wood, there is a way to finish wood, some come by these things naturally others don't have a clue.
Now I know ya sure Bill what acoustic qualities can a solid chunk of wood possibly have. Well I built a T-Class for a felloow in Quebec who had a high end Larivee, he strummed both at the same time and the solid body resonated/sustained 80% of the acoustic, it seemed as though i selected a good chunk of lumber, alot of it had to do with engineering certain aspects. Now when we talk pickups there is a definite art to that which I wont go into.
Yes I use routers, planers, thickness sanders, jointers as well as templates. I designed a jig to shape my necks instead of hand carve them aside from final feel and heel and headstock transitions.
So I can't say I am truely handbuilding them, I use a bandsaw to cut out the initial shape, should I use a hand coping saw instead to be more pure. I will say this, every item is hand selected and alot of time goes into each piece, so that all these little bits of attention culminate in a more precise instrument, even for a solid body slab guitar.

Bill


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## Mike MacLeod (Nov 27, 2006)

Economics 101: It's got nothing to do with what it costs to make the product. It's what someone will pay you for it.

Here's a true story: 
A classical maker decided that he was going to keep his guitars in the affordable range for musicians. They were very good instruments and it was not long before his waiting list was several years. It became apparent after a few years that people were buying places on the waiting list for a few $hundred, and selling their place for $thousands when their time came due. Who wins? The luthier who was being kind, the musicians who still had to pay market value for the guitars? Or the cheesy speculators who were simply doing what the market allowed? A good friend of mine had one of her guitars purchased by Tracy Chapman. It was not long before the demand began to creep up and soon she had to control the demand by doubling her price or she would have been in the same position.

There is another story about a service man who was servicing printing presses: A Printer called him in an emergency to fix a large press. The service man walked over with a small hammer and tapped the side of the press. It began to work flawlessly and the repair guy said: "That will be $2,000.00. The printer was stunned. $2K for hitting it with a hammer! How do you figure that?" The man answered: "$50 for the service call, $50.00 for the use of the hammer, and $1900 for the 30 years it took me to learn where to hit it!" 

The most prolific of the bench-makers is Jim Olson. He turns out nearly 60 instruments a year. Ted Thompson of Vernon turned out around 48 during his peak. Some top single operators turn out as few as 10 or 12. Material costs can run from a few $hundred to several $thousand per instrument. Tools and machines can run unto the hundreds of $thousands.

These folks earn every penny they charge. It is not cult.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Hmmm, if you can build one guitar a month, and you need to net enough to live on for that month from each guitar = expensive guitar.


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## Mike MacLeod (Nov 27, 2006)

Economics 10a revisited:
Gold. An absolutely useless thing. Other than the fact that it has been used as currency and decoration (as well as the odd tooth) it has practically no utility what-so-ever. Why is it worth $1600 an ounce? Simply because someone (lots of someones) things it is!

You may claim that a Martin, for example, carries a premium with the name. However, if you want to sell the guitar, you will recover that premium easily. Either in cash value or in ease of recovering your capital. A small maker may make a guitar twice as good for the money, but it will depreciate faster and deeper than the Martin or Gibson.


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