# what scales do you practice?



## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

I want to learn more about different scales and how to incorporate them into my practice regime... what scales do you practice and why?


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

There's no reason not to practice any scale, they are all useful. Why? To improve your ears, technique, fingerings, knowledge of where notes are and aren't, improvisational and compositional abilities, tempo, rhythmic abilities (assuming scales are practiced in different rhythms), and knowledge of application.

When teaching scales, I do them in this order: chromatic, major diatonic, minor diatonic, major and minor pentatonic, blues, modes, diminshed, altered dominant, and then whatever comes up in the way of "exotic" scales like bebop, Spanish gypsy, Neopolitan (and others that I need to get the book out for because there is little demand beyond curiousity).

Peace, Mooh.


----------



## Xanadu (Feb 3, 2006)

Sorry to steal the thread...
Mooh, I know several scales, but I don't really know when to actually use them. Do you know of any good books or internet sources that kinda lay it out?


----------



## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Xanadu said:


> Sorry to steal the thread...
> Mooh, I know several scales, but I don't really know when to actually use them. Do you know of any good books or internet sources that kinda lay it out?


yup, good q X


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Xanadu said:


> Sorry to steal the thread...
> Mooh, I know several scales, but I don't really know when to actually use them. Do you know of any good books or internet sources that kinda lay it out?


The Guitar Cookbook, by Jesse Gress. There are others but this one is newer, pretty thorough, and understandable. Highly recommended.

Peace, Mooh.


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

been playing the bathroom sacles mostly. Very easy going up, but I am having a hard time making the scale go down.


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I was under the impression that if you know the major scale, you know them all (generally speaking in broad strokes). If you are playing a C major, you are also playing an A minor, and so on with dorian, locran, phygrin (spelling?), etc. It is just the position and root notes change.


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I was under the impression that if you know the major scale, you know them all (generally speaking in broad strokes). If you are playing a C major, you are also playing an A minor, and so on with dorian, locran, phygrin (spelling?), etc. It is just the position and root notes change.


That is generally true for any of the diatonic scales (scales/modes with intervals of half and whole tones). It is not true of others that have 2 or more consecutive semitones (eg, Arabic scale, Hungarian minor, Raga), or 4 or more full tones (eg, whole tone scale), or some others maybe that I can't think of at the moment, even the harmonic and melodic minor scales. As normal in construction as diminished and augmented scales are, they don't come to the ear as easily and naturally to folks raised on major scale stuff. The nature of scales is they have octaves and usually fifths, as both are strong notes dictated by nature, but most of the rest of the notes are open season to cultural and stylistic variances.

The blues scale is a bit of an anomaly as the "blue" note acts as more of an accidental surrounded by the minor pentatonic, than as a scalar note in its own rite. On the whole, it sounds more minor with an accidental.

You may take notice that any major and natural minor scale contains within it 3 major pentatonic and 3 minor pentatonic scales. Take for example C major (Ionion mode, CDEFGABC) and A natural minor (Aeolian mode, ABCDEFG), relative major and minor. They contain A minor and C major pentatonic, D minor and F major pentatonic, E minor and G major pentatonic. They also contain the modes Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian.

Peace, Mooh.


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Other book recommendations beside The Guitar Cookbook...The Guitar Handbook by Ralph Denyer, and The Guitar Grimoire series by Carl Fischer, Scales And Modes In The Beginning by Ron Middlebrook, and Music Theory by Tom Kolb (Hal Leonard). There are others by these are the ones I use and prefer.

Peace, Mooh.


----------



## Samsquantch (Mar 5, 2009)

I don't practice scales anymore .


----------



## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Mooh said:


> That is generally true for any of the diatonic scales (scales/modes with intervals of half and whole tones). It is not true of others that have 2 or more consecutive semitones (eg, Arabic scale, Hungarian minor, Raga), or 4 or more full tones (eg, whole tone scale), or some others maybe that I can't think of at the moment, even the harmonic and melodic minor scales. As normal in construction as diminished and augmented scales are, they don't come to the ear as easily and naturally to folks raised on major scale stuff. The nature of scales is they have octaves and usually fifths, as both are strong notes dictated by nature, but most of the rest of the notes are open season to cultural and stylistic variances.
> 
> The blues scale is a bit of an anomaly as the "blue" note acts as more of an accidental surrounded by the minor pentatonic, than as a scalar note in its own rite. On the whole, it sounds more minor with an accidental.
> 
> ...


So, I can play the major scale in all positions on the neck for one key, say C, then if I understand correctly starting a scale from the 2nd interval (D), now I am playing a Dorian scale, from the 3rd (Phrygian), the 4th, Lydian, and so on,... still I am playing all the notes from the 'parent' scale (C), just in a different order, n'est pas?


----------



## Samsquantch (Mar 5, 2009)

bluesmostly said:


> So, I can play the major scale in all positions on the neck for one key, say C, then if I understand correctly starting a scale from the 2nd interval (D), now I am playing a Dorian scale, from the 3rd (Phrygian), the 4th, Lydian, and so on,... still I am playing all the notes from the 'parent' scale (C), just in a different order, n'est pas?


Yes, but be careful not to think that single note, unaccompanied scale practice is playing the modes. What you are doing is simply playing the C major scale all over the neck with different fingerings. That C to C, D to D, E to E etc way of thinking is counterintuitive IMO. It's better to refer to the modal names when you have a pedal tone or chord vamp going for the harmony. For example, you would be playing and hearing D Dorian if you had a Dm chord playing and you played those same C major scale fingerings all over the neck. If you had a G7 chord playing and you played those same fingerings, you'd hear G Mixolydian, and so on, moreso if you emphasize the root and characteristic "modal notes", such as the b6 for the Dorian mode, #4 for the Lydian mode, b7 for the Mixolydian mode and so on. If you want an easy way to hear what the different modes sound like, and to compare them, use your low E string as a pedal tone and play 1 octave parallel modal scale shapes back to back. For example, hit the low E and let it ring, and then play an E Ionian scale, then maybe E Dorian, then maybe E Mixolydian, then E Lydian etc etc. This will allow you to hear the modes in context. This is the _parallel_ way of looking at things rather than the _relative_ way, which is what you described in your post ie, C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian etc. The relative way of looking at things is not without it's charms, and is useful for learning how to play diatonically, however, once you reach a point where you want to learn to improvise, learn to play outside, play exotic scales and harmonies etc, the parallel way of looking at scales and chords will be more beneficial. Get the basics down first though and learn to play diatonically. Don't focus too hard on modes just yet or you will likely get ahead of yourself and get confused as many do. Anyways, if you're interested, Joe Satriani explains the parallel way of comparing scales and modes very well in these vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mbrAlE9pC4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkeURS3ZSs4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x5Bmdoyi20

It's all about internalizing the sound of the modes and scales and creating fingerings of your own rather than just playing some fingerings you learned out of a book. Learn the scale shapes in one octave and then use your ears to find those sounds all over the neck. I might put up a video lesson about this soon. There are infinite ways to play a scale. In the long run it's best to not let yourself get bogged down with set fingerings.


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Oh, so confusing, can I just stick to the minor blues scales? But then again, all my fave players throw in notes other than what that affords me too.


----------



## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

I personally haven't been able to figure out modes yet.......but I'll get there some day...but as for me....there's a tremendous amount of improv lead work that can be done when using Pentatonic, and the regular ol' major or minor scales.....if a song is in a major key - I tend to shift to the relative minor scale - just because the patterns of all the positions are more obvious to me on the fly...but sometimes - I'll even throw in the odd note that's way outside the scale - sometimes they work - sometimes they don't....if they don't - I quickly slide up (or down) to something that does....almost sounds intentional


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Oh, so confusing, can I just stick to the minor blues scales? But then again, all my fave players throw in notes other than what that affords me too.


The short answer is yes. The long answer is no, not if you want to play more than what a blues scale will allow. As you point out "all my fave players throw in notes other than what that affords me too", because the blues is so flexible. Blues doesn't completely fit with the rules of historical harmony (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmony) but that's the joy of it in a way. Start with the minor pentatonic, add the blue note (flat 5), add a 9th, add chromatic passing notes between the tones, add approach notes from a semitone above or below, especially with slides and bends. So, this might say it better than me http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues_scale

Ultimately, it all just sound, and it evolves in the ears of humankind. Push the limits and be a part of evolution.

Peace, Mooh.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Mooh said:


> Other book recommendations beside The Guitar Cookbook...The Guitar Handbook by Ralph Denyer, and The Guitar Grimoire series by Carl Fischer, Scales And Modes In The Beginning by Ron Middlebrook, and Music Theory by Tom Kolb (Hal Leonard). There are others by these are the ones I use and prefer.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


Just wanted to thank you for the reminder about the Guitar Handbook. I've always wanted to look at this, so with your thread, I went to the Library site and reserved it. Regards, Flip.


----------



## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Samsquantch said:


> Yes, but be careful not to think that single note, unaccompanied scale practice is playing the modes. What you are doing is simply playing the C major scale all over the neck with different fingerings. That C to C, D to D, E to E etc way of thinking is counterintuitive IMO. It's better to refer to the modal names when you have a pedal tone or chord vamp going for the harmony. For example, you would be playing and hearing D Dorian if you had a Dm chord playing and you played those same C major scale fingerings all over the neck. If you had a G7 chord playing and you played those same fingerings, you'd hear G Mixolydian, and so on, moreso if you emphasize the root and characteristic "modal notes", such as the b6 for the Dorian mode, #4 for the Lydian mode, b7 for the Mixolydian mode and so on. If you want an easy way to hear what the different modes sound like, and to compare them, use your low E string as a pedal tone and play 1 octave parallel modal scale shapes back to back. For example, hit the low E and let it ring, and then play an E Ionian scale, then maybe E Dorian, then maybe E Mixolydian, then E Lydian etc etc. This will allow you to hear the modes in context. This is the _parallel_ way of looking at things rather than the _relative_ way, which is what you described in your post ie, C Ionian, D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian etc. The relative way of looking at things is not without it's charms, and is useful for learning how to play diatonically, however, once you reach a point where you want to learn to improvise, learn to play outside, play exotic scales and harmonies etc, the parallel way of looking at scales and chords will be more beneficial. Get the basics down first though and learn to play diatonically. Don't focus too hard on modes just yet or you will likely get ahead of yourself and get confused as many do. Anyways, if you're interested, Joe Satriani explains the parallel way of comparing scales and modes very well in these vids:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mbrAlE9pC4
> 
> ...


Excellent! thanks Samsquantch! 

let me see if I get this: So playing the Cmajor scale over Dm effectively gives me the Dorian mode? Then if I play that same scale over different chord tones (modes) within the key of C, ( 2nd (Dm), 4th, 5th (G)) I am hearing the relative mode sounds? and that is what you are calling 'relative' playing?

'parallel' playing would be to play the different scales, E Dorian, E Lydian, etc. over the same 'parent' chord tone (E), like using the low E as in the exercise you suggested?

If I have that right then it means I have the option of playing the SAME fingerings (scale) over different chords to create modal sounds - a 'relative' approach. conversely, playing different fingerings (scales) over the SAME chord tones gives me modal sounds in a 'parallel' fashion? 

but this can't be right because I really don't see the difference between playing a C major scale over Dm, or D Dorian over Dm. what am I missing?

I will check out Joe's vids too, thanks

let me know when you get your own vid up and running.


----------



## Samsquantch (Mar 5, 2009)

bluesmostly said:


> Excellent! thanks Samsquantch!


No problem! sdsre



bluesmostly said:


> let me see if I get this: So playing the Cmajor scale over Dm effectively gives me the Dorian mode?


Yes, but keep in mind that a mode is only a mode when you hear it. If you don't play many b3 and b6 notes, you won't hear the Dorian mode very well. It's all about emphasizing the right notes to bring out that Dorian sound.



bluesmostly said:


> Then if I play that same scale over different chord tones (modes) within the key of C, ( 2nd (Dm), 4th, 5th (G)) I am hearing the relative mode sounds? and that is what you are calling 'relative' playing?


Yes, if you play the C major scale fingerings over a Cmaj7 chord, you would hear C Ionian, if you play the C major scale over a Bmin7b5 chord, you would hear B Locrian, C major scale over Amin7 chord you would hear A Aeolian etc etc....This is the relative, or diatonic way of looking at things.



bluesmostly said:


> 'parallel' playing would be to play the different scales, E Dorian, E Lydian, etc. over the same 'parent' chord tone (E), like using the low E as in the exercise you suggested?


Yes, although i would hesitate to call it "parallel playing" per se. For now, think of it as just a way to compare the sounds of modes and scales. Another exercise you could do to compare the sounds of chords is to use the low E or A string as a droning bass note again, but this time play chords in a parallel fashion.



bluesmostly said:


> If I have that right then it means I have the option of playing the SAME fingerings (scale) over different chords to create modal sounds - a 'relative' approach. conversely, playing different fingerings (scales) over the SAME chord tones gives me modal sounds in a 'parallel' fashion?


It depends on the context. The way you explained it is a bit too vague. Can you cite some specific examples?



bluesmostly said:


> but this can't be right because I really don't see the difference between playing a C major scale over Dm, or D Dorian over Dm. what am I missing?


There is no difference, really, because D Dorian and Dm are part of the C major scale. As I stated previously, you are better off getting a good grounding in major scale/diatonic theory before you venture off into modal territory or you will most likely get confused.


----------



## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesmostly 
If I have that right then it means I have the option of playing the SAME fingerings (scale) over different chords to create modal sounds - a 'relative' approach. conversely, playing different fingerings (scales) over the SAME chord tones gives me modal sounds in a 'parallel' fashion? 

It depends on the context. The way you explained it is a bit too vague. Can you cite some specific examples?

'relative' approach = C maj scale/fingering over Dm chord gives me Dorian mode sounds esp if I empahsize the b3, b6. 

'parallel' approach = playing different scales/fingering (Dorian, Lydian, etc) over Cmaj chord


----------



## Samsquantch (Mar 5, 2009)

bluesmostly said:


> 'relative' approach = C maj scale/fingering over Dm chord gives me Dorian mode sounds esp if I empahsize the b3, b6.


Yes, as well as the root (D). 



bluesmostly said:


> 'parallel' approach = playing different scales/fingering (Dorian, Lydian, etc) over Cmaj chord


No. You would not hear the Dorian mode at all over a Cmaj chord. Watch the Satriani videos for good examples of comparing modes and scales using a parallel viewpoint, which Satriani refers to as pitch axis theory. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitch_axis_theory


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

You may find the two videos helpful and interesting.

[YOUTUBE]hCYBq8DAJCc[/YOUTUBE]






[YOUTUBE]5QYhVs0cjDM&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Samsquantch said:


> Yes, as well as the root (D).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


got it, thanks again Sams:wave:


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

OMG, that is soooo outside my thinking capabilities. I like Satch and Vai etc. but my mind will not translate that. I have enough trouble just finding the blues scale notes in different positions on the fret board no matter how much I practise. I think that is the difference between having talent (all the good guitar players) and not having talent (me). But, I wanna rock!


----------



## AlterEgo (Jan 12, 2010)

May I suggest: Mel Bay's Complete Jazz Guitar Method by Mike Christiansen(ISBN 0-7866-3263-1)... Aside the Jazz intonation to the method, it is a complete reference... in particular the chord construction ... 

Cheers,

AlterEgo


----------



## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

I view practice as something that can differ from what i would do outside of practice and therefore practice any and all scales that sound cool to my ear. 

Pentatonic, Aoelian, Locrian, Harmonic Monor, bla didy bla bla... LOL


----------



## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> OMG, that is soooo outside my thinking capabilities. I like Satch and Vai etc. but my mind will not translate that. I have enough trouble just finding the blues scale notes in different positions on the fret board no matter how much I practise. I think that is the difference between having talent (all the good guitar players) and not having talent (me). But, I wanna rock!


I'm in the same boat......I just wanna rock dammit!


I find that relying on the shape (pattern) of the scale depending on the position - I define the first position as where the root note is on the low E string - has allowed me to accelerate playing without having to on the fly know where all the notes are per se....is it limiting? - ya somewhat - but that part of the knowledge and skill will catch up - in the meantime - I'm out there and rockin...leads to most rock or blues songs contain notes contained tightly within these patters or boxes


----------

