# Tubes



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

What have you found to be the best tubes? EL34 .... 6L6 etc also what brand if any do you most recommend?


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

-I'm a fan of Svetlana 6L6s.
-I use JJ 6V6s exclusively, they are built like a tank but sound like a 6V6/6L6 crossbread.
-Sovtek 12AX7LPS is a higher gain tube that sounds pretty good.
-JJ ECC803S is a great tube for low gain applications, real sweet sounding tube.

Of course my real favorite preamp tubes are NOS GE 12AX7s and NOS Mullard CV4024(12AT7s) and NOS RCA 12AY7s.


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## RippingRudy (Feb 2, 2006)

You can't go wrong with Electro Harmonix or JJ tubes. A guy did a posting on HC where he a/b'd a load of different preamp tubes and there was little difference in sound - Some were slightly brighter than others. Big deal. haha


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## JamesPeters (Feb 2, 2006)

"Swearing by" any one particular mfg of tubes is probably not a good idea. I've had headaches from thinking similarly in the past. Sometimes tube mfgs just put out crummy tubes; sometimes it's due to a bad batch but other times it's a longer-term problem too.

In any case, I do like the JJ 6V6 for the same reason Jeff does. I'm looking forward to trying the new Tung Sol 6V6 too since it's supposed to be really good. And I have no problems with Ruby or EH 6V6s in terms of their sound, although I feel more comfortable using JJs since they're rated for higher voltage and current.

EL34, I guess I'm on the fence. I like EH, Svetlana and SED about equally. JJ EL34 and E34L are next, and I'd probably have kept using them if I hadn't had all kinds of problems with them about a year ago.

For 12AX7 tubes, I'd say the Sovtek 12AX7WC is my current favorite. It seems to suit any amp I put them in and doesn't necessarily favor higher or lower gain designs. It also has a nice balance of warmth and articulation. It reminds me of the Sovtek 12AX7LPS but unlike the LPS it can be used in cathode follower positions without dying in a week. (Note: never use Sovtek 12AX7LPS in a cathode follower stage unless you're reasonably certain the cathode-to-heater voltage is fairly low, around 100V or lower. If you're unsure what that means, maybe avoid it just to be sure.  ) I'm honestly surprised more people don't use the 12AX7WC.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

James, have you tried the Tung Sol 12AX7 yet? Thoughts?


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## JamesPeters (Feb 2, 2006)

Jeff Flowerday said:


> James, have you tried the Tung Sol 12AX7 yet? Thoughts?


Nosireebob. Not yet. From what some others have said it's left me wondering if I'd like it or not, so I haven't been enthusiastic to try it. However on my next Newsensor order I'll probably grab a few anyway (along with the Tung Sol 6V6).


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## Mr. David Severson (Feb 3, 2006)

Hey James, 

where do you get the sovtek 12AXTWC's from? I may try them in my prosonic.


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## taken (Feb 5, 2006)

Personally I prefer either the SED EL34's or the JJ E34L's as a first choice, and probably the Shuguang EL34-B as a second choice. I find the EHX EL34's to be very musical but a little to fizzy for my tastes. I have never played a Sovtek power tube that I liked, but I don't mind their preamp tubes. For 6L6's I prefer the JJ 6L6GC and some NOS RCA 6L6's that I tried in a 60's bandmaster a few times were outstanding.


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## screaminking (Feb 5, 2006)

I really like the sound of JJ EL34L's in my TSL100, but that's one of the best upgrades you can make to that amp 

I dig the JJ ECC83S and ECC803S tubes for that amp as well, but I haven't done much experimenting. I've played with tossing in an EH 12AT7 and one Shuguang 12AX7 in different positions. I actually just picked up a GT 12AX7 Mullard reissue and I couldn't believe the difference it made just in V1. The amp sounds way more open and less compressed, and it's just way more "Marshall-y" to my ears. Hopefully I won't have the reliability problem most people have.

I've just gotten a Laney VC30 as well, and it's running Sovtek EL84's which sound great. Although, I've heard great things about the JJ EL84's and I'd like to give those a go eventually.


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## Duke of Metal (Feb 3, 2006)

For EL34s.. So far I like the SED EL34 the best. very tight & crisp sounding

For 6L6s.. I like the JJ 6L6GCs.. very tight and has a nice throaty meaty sound to it.


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## JamesPeters (Feb 2, 2006)

When you're this big said:


> Hey James,
> 
> where do you get the sovtek 12AXTWC's from? I may try them in my prosonic.


Hi David. I get the 12AX7WC from Newsensor. I tend to have them on hand since they're my default 12AX7, so if you want to buy a couple from me I can supply them. I just can't give wicked prices on them, since I don't move enough of them to be buying that many (plus with the brokerage and shipping I pay on them, well you know). I can sell them for a similar price of buying an EH or Sovtek 12AX7 from a local music store anyway.

Gimme a call if'n ya want some.


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## imbackagain2 (Feb 6, 2006)

Ive got groove tubes in my crate and they are real and they are spectacular


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## JamesPeters (Feb 2, 2006)

imbackagain2 said:


> Ive got groove tubes in my crate and they are real and they are spectacular


Which ones. GT generally doesn't make tubes; they re-brand other companies' tubes. Except for a couple tubes they "make themselves" (to varying degrees, still open to interpretation evidently).


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## imbackagain2 (Feb 6, 2006)

To be honest with you I am not sure. A buddy of mine has the same amp and he told me that they have groove tubes in them. 


Quick research they're a pair of EL34 tubes. BUt I don't know who makes them. I googled it and got Amperex/Philips Holland EL34


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## JamesPeters (Feb 2, 2006)

imbackagain2 said:


> Quick research they're a pair of EL34 tubes. BUt I don't know who makes them. I googled it and got Amperex/Philips Holland EL34


Did you just google "Groove Tubes EL34" though? I'm betting if you bought GT EL34s recently they're not made by those manufacturers. GT gets their tubes from JJ, Newsensor, Svetlana and so forth these days.


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## imbackagain2 (Feb 6, 2006)

NO i went on the crate website cause thats what my amp is and it says it's loaded with a pair of el34. IM starrting to think my friend was wrong and that they arent grove tubes but the other kind that i mentioned. I haven't had to replace them yet so Im not 100% sure. Whatever they are they sound great though.


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## Tarl (Feb 4, 2006)

Imbackagain2, I have the same amp as you. They come stock with GTs, 4 12ax7a in the pre and 2 el34 in the power section. They do sound good but I may replace mine with JJs , I,va always had good luck with them. My amp also has the Tone Tubby speaker (it has "A Brown Sound Inc.") sticker on the back. I know some come with Celestions too.

Tarl


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

My favorites:

12ax7: RFT (NOS), Bugle boy (NOS Amperex), tesla(NOS), Mullard I61 and I63, Ge7025, Sylvania Jan 12ax7wa for the VH vibes, Telefunken smooth plate for a driver position

For New production 12ax7s :not many, Tung-Sol (new sensor)

el34:most NOS brand, xf2 (Mullard), Siemen RFT, etc..

For new Production el34: the only one I would go with is the Chinese el34B (must be the 11th generation) very cheap and the nearest to the xf2

KT66: GEC for the NOS, Chinese Golden Dragon (also 11th generation not earlier, they die fast....) are 90% of the GECs....


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## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

Alot of this is amp dependant. What sounds good in one amp may not sound as good in another. Sometimes you need to really try and see what works for your particular amp. I've got an ampeg that truly loves the EH big bottle 6CA7 but they don't sound as good in a couple of my garnets, the seem to like JJ or Tung Sol or Sylvania. Alot of the old fenders I have and have worked on really perform with old RCA 6l6s.


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## megadan (Feb 5, 2006)

I've played amps with 6L6's, and for me at least, they can't compete with a good 6550.
Easily my favorite tube, my current amp had a GE 6550A in one of the two sockets. Replaced with new SED winged 6550C's and it's still as loud and as great as ever.


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

For all of you who would like to get NOS/ANOS tubes at a very good price try "Tubetramp" aka Terry Kilgore.

Terry played guitars for David Lee Roth in replacement of Vai in the 90'S, he did two albums with Roth, he's a childhood friend of the VAn HAlen brothers, so to make a story short Terry knows a lot about amps and tubes, very knowledgeble..

He's in California and tubes is a sideline for him, you can ask him qts, he will answer always in a very colorfull way.....

Shoot him an e-mail: [email protected]

For those who never played NOS tubes, onces you get them you don't go back!!!Drool


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## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

superleadfixer said:


> For those who never played NOS tubes, onces you get them you don't go back!!!Drool



There is alot of truth to this for sure. Just check out some of the fender forums and see what alot of the players love in their silver and blackfaces etc. NOS RCAs.


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

It's day and night, I just can't used new production tubes anymore. 

Reliability is also day and night, a Telefunken smooth plate 12ax7 will last over 100,000hrs before it starts to loose it, most NOS 12ax7 will go an easy 20,000hrs, NOS el34 like the xf2 (Mullard) will last a good 6000hrs, GEC KT66 could last you a lifetime, etc..... And they sound so much better....


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

jroberts said:


> I like EH for 6973's because they're the only ones who still make them and NOS's are around $75 each.


You don't have to buy them NOS but rather ANOS (almost new old stock), you will save a lot and still be in great shape for tone.....ex. a quad of xf2 (Mullard) the ultimate el34 of all times will sell 600-800$ if perfectly NOS but you can find them used but still test like new for haft the price, same for any other NOS, ex an RFT 12ax7 NOS will sell for $60 NOS, but you can find some for $25ANOS and it is the best investement you will ever do, because you'll keep bying NEW production tubes every know and then but with the old stuff your in beziness for years before you change so what will it be? LOL You decide, and they sound so much better, day and night in all cases...

A quad of Siemen RFT el34 will sell for 110$, a quad of new sensor Mullard will sell for 125$ those will have a meldown with a B+ of above 490 and they won't last you more then 3 months-6 months if lucky in the other hand the Siemen will sound magical compare to the New Sensor crap and they will work for 4000-6000hrs, get my drift people!!!

BAsicly you will buy ANOS/NOS tubes once and your fit for a long time


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## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

superleadfixer said:


> they will work for 4000-6000hrs, get my drift people!!!
> 
> BAsicly you will buy ANOS/NOS tubes once and your fit for a long time


Superleadfixer is bang on the money. I've amps from the 60's with original tubes in them still going strong. Tubes don't "wear" out as fast a people think they do, especially NOS/ANOS ones. There is too much hype out there about how often and when to change tubes. Good tubes can last a long long long time. The older tubes sound so sweet. Sylvania pre-amp tubes are a find if you can lay your hands on them.


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

In the old days they had to make them so they last long, military, etc... HAd no choice to be as reliable as possible some 12ax7 (some Brimar) had no pins on there base but wires that would fit permanantly in the "socket"

The only NEW production tubes that are ok today are Shugangs but they just start to be nice, Chinese don't have all those enviromental laws so they do it the old way with the old original machinary etc...

Just my 2 cents.......

New production tubes will sound like AM radio, once you get the old glass it will sound like FM radio, no turning back!!!

Just my 3 cents..


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## Newton (Sep 11, 2006)

I've heard an old Orange head from time that Orange had no stanby switch with his original tubes and even with no stanby switch to help the tubes, the amp still have a very hot tone. I will choose ANOS ultra match set over a NOS ordinary quad. :rockon: Superleadfixer nice post about tubes. You should read Ken Fisher of Trainwreck about his favorites NOS tubes he has similar ideas about that.


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

I believe that Newton about Ken Fisher thinking that, he has no choice even it's all there..., he's just a genius :bow: that guy is a brilliant amp designer. 

I will share a little secret with you guys about tubes matching (for those who doesn't know this already...), you can or can't approuve what I will say next but it is the REAL thing and I could prouve it to you if you were here with me in front of a scope looking at the waves an amp produce........ok here how it goes:

First thing, the tube matching thing is just pure bull sh*T to a certain degree, know some will say, yeah right, what the hell is this guy is saying...

The raison is simple, first you must know that all solid state amplifier (Yikes ) will show on a scope a perfectly symatrical waves (sine waves) and that is why a solid state will sound so clean AND STERILE, the circuit is SO perfect it can't send anything else by its nature (damn technology hey!!), symatrical signals with avantage odd order harmonics (OOH), they are ok for clean tone (maybe... but not for me) to certain degree but those OOH sucks when the amp is in clipping mode or distorting, this will give you harsh, thin, liveless tone, no caracter, nothing period. In a tube amp in the other hand, because tubes are not equily the same, not exact, even when matched, each tube is a little different and that difference makes ALL the difference. If you monitor a tube amp on a scope you will find asymetrical waves instead (more for some amp, less in others..) and those asymetrical waves will produce the most beautifull and pleasant harmonics that we all love, "even ordered harmonics (EOH) (remember that one...), and that is where all the beauty of a good tube amp comes from and is all about.

Second: So why the matched tubes thing is bullsh**t (?), well because by having a relatively small "mismatch" between you power tubes you just increase the not so perfect world to create MORE EOHs. We called this type of mismatch an "audio DC imbalance", the target for a proper dc imbalance is basicly around 10ma from one side to the other, more then that and your OT primaries will get hot, now for those wanting to see this you must go easy on that, too much imbalance will make thing go wrong and then you won't get good result and your OT life could be smaller, stay within 10ma and you'll be just fine. 

All of this can be easily be seen on a scope, but your ears will see the difference anyway:banana: ...

Here's how to do this, when getting tubes you have to ask your provider a set (duet, quad...) that have 8-10ma (you will see that when biasing...) difference between the two tubes for a duet OR one tube off by that value (10ma) and the 3 others equal for a quad. Now there is not many tube seller who will do this and most of them won't even know what the hell your talking about, so find the good tube guys, for this....

So when setting your bias (let say for a 100w) you will see on one side (V4 V5) a total of around 60ma (30ma/each tube), and on the other side if you have a match quad, about the same (60ma), your not gonna increase your imbalance like that, but if you have one tube 10ma stronger or weaker, the other side will show you 50 or 70ma so a 10ma dc imbalance, and there you go, those gorgeous EOH are increase know, hummmm. 

When I say from one side to the other I mean in a push pull amp, 100w has 4 tubes the two first power tubes is one side AND the "other" side is the two other tubes (simple hey?). In a 50w with two power tube well its easy, each tubes are on there respective sides, so when bying a duet get two tubes with 8-10ma apart...

This methode will work the best with el34 (others also) as those are MORE sterile sounding in general, it will make your amp come alive (more) and colorfull, much more fun to play with etc....

So when you see amps like those Komets, Trainwrecks, Super Leads, etc...Those amp will deliver a maximum of EOH, and the more the better...You will just help your amp doing what its suppose to do best...

There is other tricks to increase those EOH but that will be explain in another thread!!

Have fun with your tubes!!


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## Newton (Sep 11, 2006)

With these infos, I guess I'll be able to start my own tube collection and experimentation. The bias setting is easy to do with my Komets. But I will have to buy a tube tester to match the tubes, maybe like this one at http://www.maximatcher.com/ I dont know? For the preamp tubes this device wont let me know if the tube are micropnonics unless I try them on the amp? Does the difference of value in(ma) will affect the breakup of the tone (early or late), EX: mismatche of 8 to 10 for early breakup an 4 to 6 for late breakup?


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Unless you want to start a tube selling buziness the maximatcher will cost you a lot for not much, it's a good tester but you don't need it really, your amp will be your tester. Now if you don't trust you tube provider then get one and find your old glass yourseft in old electronic stores, flee markets, old equipement (organs, hospital equipement, military radars, etc..that all use tubes in the old day) don't get the TV tubes not gonna be of any value for amp operations, then when you find them you test them if still good. What you want to know is the mutual transcondance of each tube, those values will tell you if the tube is still strong and kicking and if there are not gassy (lost of vacuum, etc....), etc....

For microphonic tubes, well the best way is to play them and use a pensil or a wood stick and touch the tube just a little, if you ear something like a bright noisy ding it is not good and might be microphonic, a microphonic 12ax7 tube could work well in the driver position (just prior to the output stages), or phase inverter position (same thing...), only place for them really if you have nothing else...

Good and honest tube provider will test there tube (new or used) and should let you know what are the numbers for them, specialy if you decide to get NOS tubes, there is only a handfull of NOS goos tube sellings around, I know a few of them.....you can get scam easy, don't buy the first stuff you see on ebay, get the info first and ask someone who knows, etc....A quad of Mullards (xf2) will sell around $800usd for a matched NOS quad, that is a lot of money, but if you are 100% sure about a quad like that then it is worth buying it maybe, there is also the collector guys, and audiophile guys who will use them in old hifi stereo, etc....


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Newton, with your top of the line amps, one of the best thing you could do to maximize your tone is to use NOS tubes. It's a science of itseft, a little complicated at first as they are so many brands, etc.....But once you start with them you'll never go back with the "modern crap" again except for a few rare exceptions!!!


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Newton said:


> Does the difference of value in(ma) will affect the breakup of the tone (early or late), EX: mismatche of 8 to 10 for early breakup an 4 to 6 for late breakup?


Break up means when the amp starts to clip right? Basicly that will be effected mainly by the circuit design and type of OT, the bias mismatch will effect the clipping yes but only if you bias hot or cold, very cold, very hot, etc. The hotter the sooner you will achive clipping point and vise versa but not by much. So basicly the 10ma mismatch won't really effect that directly. But your EOH will be increased and it will give you the impression the amp is clipping faster/sooner maybe!!

You must bias your amp at 70% plate dissipation regardless of the 10ma trick, that's a ball park figure to start, use your ears also....

If you bias too hot your tube will start to red plate with that blue glow (see in the dark) and the tone will get fuzzy, not very good, noise, ghosting will be increased (if you have some already, etc...), under bias (cold) and you will red plate also without the bleu glow, not good either...Use your eyes also and look.

One thing you will notice is when ever you play the amp your B+ is dropping that is normal so the red plating can fade away giving you an impression the situation is ok but its not, the way to visualy inspected your tubes is at idle with no guitar signal in the amp!!!


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Little definition of *clipping*:

A tube can be made to draw more current or less current. If it draws too so current, that no matter how positive the grid goes, the tube cannot pass any more current, then the tube is saturating and the top of the wave is "clipped" off. Instead of being round, it is flat. This is called clipping. It can also happen if the tube draws too little current because if you keep drawing less and less, you will eventually get to the point of no current. This condition is called cutoff. If you reach cutoff during a portion of a signal, then the bottom of the wave is "clipped" off and clipping is said to have occurred. 

*Linear/non linear range*: 

The tube's response is the most linear when it is operating exactly half way between saturation and cutoff. When it operates close to the limits of cutoff or saturation, it is operating in the most non-linear portion of the tubes operating curve. 

The term break up is more used with speakers but it's still ok to use it for amps...


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## Newton (Sep 11, 2006)

The NOS preamp tubes are relatively easy to find (I have some Mullard and a couple of amperex buggle boy)the power tubes it's something else. The good news with the Komet is that the amp is using a pair of power tubes. Thanks man!! Thats my next step for the never ending quest for tone :rockon:


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

superleadfixer said:


> For all of you who would like to get NOS/ANOS tubes at a very good price try "Tubetramp" aka Terry Kilgore.
> 
> Terry played guitars for David Lee Roth in replacement of Vai in the 90'S, he did two albums with Roth, he's a childhood friend of the VAn HAlen brothers, so to make a story short Terry knows a lot about amps and tubes, very knowledgeble..
> 
> ...


WIth Terry Kilgore you could get all the ANOS power tube you will ever need, and he knows all the good tricks!!! I'm a monkey compare to his knowledge on tubes.....Drool 

One other guy has beautiful NOS tubes but a little expensive https://www.tubeworld.com/index_high.htm 

also here http://kcanostubes.com/content/estore.asp


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## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

Ham radio swap meets, Auction sales, old community centers (talk to the custodian, they all had tube pa's at one time and usually had spare tubes), small town repair shops. All these are also great places to find NOS/ANOS tubes very reasonable. Yard sales are great too. I just picked up a completely beaten old am tube radio for $1. I got two mullen 12at7s out of it, and amperex 5Y3 and I can use the tube sockets etc for other projects. It was sitting on a guys table at a yard sale.


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Ripper said:


> Ham radio swap meets, Auction sales, old community centers (talk to the custodian, they all had tube pa's at one time and usually had spare tubes), small town repair shops. All these are also great places to find NOS/ANOS tubes very reasonable. Yard sales are great too. I just picked up a completely beaten old am tube radio for $1. I got two mullen 12at7s out of it, and amperex 5Y3 and I can use the tube sockets etc for other projects. It was sitting on a guys table at a yard sale.


That is the cheapest way to do it and you never know when you'll find yourseft a gold mine, most people don't even know the potential value of those old tubes thinking there are worth nothing....

Only problem is that you will need a good tester to find out if they are still good for resell or for your own usage...You can still play them but be aware that a BAD power tube (shorted) could damage your OT very easily, even worse both your trannies can get hurt, etc....

Better let the pros like "Tubetramp" to take care of that..

As an exemple you can get a quartet of RFT Siemen el34 100% NOS for about $125, that is not so bad considering those will last for years instead of for months with the new production crap!!!


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Newton said:


> The NOS preamp tubes are relatively easy to find (I have some Mullard and a couple of amperex buggle boy)the power tubes it's something else. The good news with the Komet is that the amp is using a pair of power tubes. Thanks man!! Thats my next step for the never ending quest for tone :rockon:


Try to find youreft a duet of Mullard xf2 (my favorite), but xf3, xf4 are as good, they just don't last as long as xf2 but not by much. You don't have to get them absolutly NEW, you can get some with a little operation time but still test like new, you will save some money, I think Terry got a bunch xf2 for maybe $100/tubes, thats not bad at all to ty them out, if you like them, I know a guy who has over 500 NOS xf2 in htere original boxes....

The other alternative for xf2 are the Shugang el34B, those little suckers are very promising and only new production tube (yeah I know, I said there crap but not those...) I'd go for, I would say they are 90% of an original Mullard xf2, they lake that 3d vibes a little that the original Mullard have. 

Those Shugang must be the 11th generation ones, NOT before, earlier ones aren't very reliable, they can die suddently, Tubetramp get them directly from China and he pre sceerns them and "burn them in" so they are stable on the bias for us to play without rebias all the time for the first 5-6hrs. Those are so cheap, you just can't beat that one up, let's just hope they last long, reports for that are all very good so far. can have a quartet for around $75, crazy hey!!

Remember that NOS cost more but your investement will cash in because you won't have to re-purchase every 6 months....

quick remember:

*12ax7 type NOS* : those will last a minimum of 20,000hrs, some will go up to 100,000 (military made were like that, Sylviana JAN12ax7wa were made like that, this one was use by EVH BTW....)

Power tubes el34 types, etc...: Those will last around 6000-10,000hrs depending on brand, Raznov are unbeatable for longetivity..

KT66:... a life time

Any other type: very long time :rockon2:


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## Newton (Sep 11, 2006)

I think I've seen some posts of Terry on Plexi palace forum he is tubetramp, I'll contact him. Also I know some retired guys of amateur radio who have some stocks of spare tubes. A story to follow.


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Newton said:


> I think I've seen some posts of Terry on Plexi palace forum he is tubetramp, I'll contact him. Also I know some retired guys of amateur radio who have some stocks of spare tubes. A story to follow.


That's him.......Terry is not there anymore because of a story with tubegetter or something......tell him Frenchie sends you:tongue:


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## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

superleadfixer said:


> Only problem is that you will need a good tester to find out if they are still good for resell or for your own usage...You can still play them but be aware that a BAD power tube (shorted) could damage your OT very easily, even worse both your trannies can get hurt, etc....
> 
> Better let the pros like "Tubetramp" to take care of that..


Well the tube checker part isn't a problem. I own four. I've been working with tubes since the 70's (my college electronics course still taught tubes in depth when I took it), so I'm not too worried about the tubes I aquire outside of a "dealer". 

The biggest thing for people is to do their homework. There is so much misinformation and blatantly wrong information being doled out through the internet and through fake "tube gurus". Buy some recommended books and read up on it. There are alot of hacks out there passing themselves off as knowledgeable in tubes and tube amps and have butchered alot of really good iron.

I had meant to mention about how much I agree with you that the "matched tube" craze is pure smoke and mirrors. Back in the 70s no one matched the tubes in their guitar amps. If one tube went you bought one tube to replace it. Thousands of amps (I would bet money all the old vintage ones we have now sitting in our collections, wearing matched pairs of power tubes and I can also bet that most were never rebiased when the tubes were changed) never had matched tubes till it became the thing to do. The only thing I remember about matched tubes from back then was that it was something that the high end audiophile tribe was into and again not generally accepted as to whether it made any difference or not. Biasing definitely makes sense,and can drastically improve the sound of an amp, but people have to realize that even new tubes will age at a different rate due to slight inconsistencies from tube to tube, matched or not.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

Ripper said:


> Well the tube checker part isn't a problem. I own four. I've been working with tubes since the 70's (my college electronics course still taught tubes in depth when I took it), so I'm not too worried about the tubes I aquire outside of a "dealer".
> 
> The biggest thing for people is to do their homework. There is so much misinformation and blatantly wrong information being doled out through the internet and through fake "tube gurus". Buy some recommended books and read up on it. There are alot of hacks out there passing themselves off as knowledgeable in tubes and tube amps and have butchered alot of really good iron.
> 
> I had meant to mention about how much I agree with you that the "matched tube" craze is pure smoke and mirrors. Back in the 70s no one matched the tubes in their guitar amps. If one tube went you bought one tube to replace it. Thousands of amps (I would bet money all the old vintage ones we have now sitting in our collections, wearing matched pairs of power tubes and I can also bet that most were never rebiased when the tubes were changed) never had matched tubes till it became the thing to do. The only thing I remember about matched tubes from back then was that it was something that the high end audiophile tribe was into and again not generally accepted as to whether it made any difference or not. Biasing definitely makes sense,and can drastically improve the sound of an amp, but people have to realize that even new tubes will age at a different rate due to slight inconsistencies from tube to tube, matched or not.


I agree with the above...even if they are matched to start with, they will definitely drift at different rates over time.

One thing that should be pointed out is that residual hum will increase proportionally with the amount of mismatch. This often isn't a big issue with guitar amps, since the hum is swamped out by other background noise, but is definitely an issue with tube audio gear. 

A lot of old audio gear (as well as later Fender Silverface amps) had a hum balance pot to allow the user to balance the idle currents as the tubes aged.

Although matched tube sets have been around for a long time and certainly make sense in audiophile gear, I think the use in guitar amps probably started with Groove Tubes.


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Scottone said:


> I think the use in guitar amps probably started with Groove Tubes.


You just said it, GT started most of that hipe matching stuff with Mr Aspen something Pitman? it is??, don't remember!!


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Ripper said:


> Well the tube checker part isn't a problem. I own four. I've been working with tubes since the 70's (my college electronics course still taught tubes in depth when I took it), so I'm not too worried about the tubes I aquire outside of a "dealer".
> 
> The biggest thing for people is to do their homework. There is so much misinformation and blatantly wrong information being doled out through the internet and through fake "tube gurus". Buy some recommended books and read up on it. There are alot of hacks out there passing themselves off as knowledgeable in tubes and tube amps and have butchered alot of really good iron.
> 
> I had meant to mention about how much I agree with you that the "matched tube" craze is pure smoke and mirrors. Back in the 70s no one matched the tubes in their guitar amps. If one tube went you bought one tube to replace it. Thousands of amps (I would bet money all the old vintage ones we have now sitting in our collections, wearing matched pairs of power tubes and I can also bet that most were never rebiased when the tubes were changed) never had matched tubes till it became the thing to do. The only thing I remember about matched tubes from back then was that it was something that the high end audiophile tribe was into and again not generally accepted as to whether it made any difference or not. Biasing definitely makes sense,and can drastically improve the sound of an amp, but people have to realize that even new tubes will age at a different rate due to slight inconsistencies from tube to tube, matched or not.


+1 :rockon:


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Ripper said:


> Well the tube checker part isn't a problem. I own four. I've been working with tubes since the 70's (my college electronics course still taught tubes in depth when I took it), so I'm not too worried about the tubes I aquire outside of a "dealer".
> 
> The biggest thing for people is to do their homework. There is so much misinformation and blatantly wrong information being doled out through the internet and through fake "tube gurus". Buy some recommended books and read up on it. There are alot of hacks out there passing themselves off as knowledgeable in tubes and tube amps and have butchered alot of really good iron.
> 
> I had meant to mention about how much I agree with you that the "matched tube" craze is pure smoke and mirrors. Back in the 70s no one matched the tubes in their guitar amps. If one tube went you bought one tube to replace it. Thousands of amps (I would bet money all the old vintage ones we have now sitting in our collections, wearing matched pairs of power tubes and I can also bet that most were never rebiased when the tubes were changed) never had matched tubes till it became the thing to do. The only thing I remember about matched tubes from back then was that it was something that the high end audiophile tribe was into and again not generally accepted as to whether it made any difference or not. Biasing definitely makes sense,and can drastically improve the sound of an amp, but people have to realize that even new tubes will age at a different rate due to slight inconsistencies from tube to tube, matched or not.


Well said Ripper...I would add that rarely is a guitar amp output tranny perfectly balanced. Therefore the whole matched tube craze
is based on the assumption that all components in an amp are balanced as well. Anyone who has any experience, knows this is simply not true.
Although a matched set of tubes will work perfectly in any amp, the cost can outstrip the benefits. There are exceptions however... low quality tubes ie Chinese whose operational life are shorter, can't be compared to the tubes 
made in the USA and Europe. It has been my experience that many NOS tubes handle much more abuse than certain brands found today. 

Therefore, in some cases, attention is required as to biasing and pairing tubes of similar characteristics....in other words, most Chinese tubes are junk


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Well I have news for you, the Chinese tubes use to be junk I agree 110%, but the lastest batch of Golden Dragons kt66 or that el34B 11th generation are very good and reliable. MAke a search at the "plexi palace" or the gear page, etc...and see what guys are saying about them. For that price range and tone they beat any other new production by far.....

just my 2 cent


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

go read here: just a few exemple on Shuguang.... 

http://www.vintageamps.com/plexiboard/viewtopic.php?t=53654&highlight=shuguang+el34b

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?p=1752580#post1752580


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*"Just the same, only different!"*

Can't resist jumping in on this one! I'm old enough to have used tubes in the 60's and of course, ever since. I've now come full circle and make my living building and servicing tube amps. Also, I may be one of the few people left alive who worked for a time in the Westinghouse tube division. This was at the very end of the division's life but I learned from the older folks.

I agree that close matching is counter-productive in a tube guitar amp. This idea seems to have been spread from the same tree of bunkum that sells tube audiophile gear. Tube matching and the size of your speaker wire seems to be all they have left to talk about. I haven't seen an article on how to actually BUILD a tube hifi amp in years! The technicals have been totally "dumbed down" in favour of marketing hype. This hype of course is in areas where some folks are making a great deal of money.

That being said, since I don't make my living as a tube vendor I would hate to see players give up on biasing new tubes and not just 'cuz I make a (little) money charging for biasing. New tubes DO vary much more in specs than in the "Golden Years"! Tube manufacturers second-sourced to fill unexpected demand from their competition all the time. If RCA had a rush order of 6L6's they would shop around and have no qualms about buying from Westinghouse or TungSol. In those days if you didn't meet the published specs and minimum quality with your product you couldn't stay in the market and would be forced out. Those who were playing trusted each other to keep them out of warranty troubles.

The old guys that I worked with could not understand why anyone would care if a tube was re-branded. The concept of tonal differences between brands was considered audiophile mojo. In the old days it probably was! Today as I said before few if any tubes are as consistent to the old specs as a NOS unit. It is these differences that give changes in sound or tube life. Or upper voltage spec, as those who in the 90's put Chinese EL34's in a high voltage Traynor often found out, spectacularly!

So it being accepted that tubes vary, the need to re-bias a new set is plain. It is a total crap shoot for a new set to be anywhere near the "sweet spot". I've installed lots of new tubes and found the existing bias setting was too low and the new tubes were red-plating before my eyes. Or the setting in a stock Fender was so high the idle current was very low and the amp sounded like "ass".

Having your amp re-biased has another benefit. Any tech worth his salt will take the opportunity while he has your amp opened up to do a quick check of voltages and a visual inspection of evidence of arcing, resistors overheating and cracking or whatever. Can't hurt and can sometimes save big bucks later.

All this being said, I don't hold with being too "anal" about close matching between the tubes themselves. Again, this is a "hifi" thing intended to achieve the lowest possible distortion figure. Who in the world wants a hifi sounding guitar? The whole trip is ABOUT distortion! I actually prefer to have a few ma.'s difference in the tubes. Too much can unbalance the stage and cause one tube to hog the power and shorten its life. It can also damage an output transformer. A few ma however will actually improve the sound dramatically, by adding some harmonic "swirl". One of the earlier posts talked about this and I agree totally.

This is all just another example of what I call the "Dink Around Effect". Someone doesn't have enough technical education to properly understand what is or is not important so he "dinks around" with trivial and easy stuff. Anyone with hair in his ears can spend more money on more closely matched tubes. Or heavier speaker wire, or gold-plated connectors, or $1000 power cables, or whatever. The latest one I've seen is about the quality of the inductor used in hifi speaker crossovers. Unless the inductor is total junk anybody's will work as good as anyone else's product. They quoted in their ads some technobabble about Q factors and such but neglected to point out (if they even knew!) that such talk was about coils at very high radio frequencies. It would take a NASA lab to find differences at low audio frequencies. Only a bona fide psychic could tell what inductor was being used in a speaker crossover.

I overhauled a Citation II tube output amplifier for a local audiophile once. He had purchased a kit from some 'Net hifi guru of parts but needed a tech to install them. For the most part I couldn't quarrel with the guru's choices and changes but I was struck by what I considered actually a "newbie" mistake. He had beefed up the sizes of the filter caps, which is a good thing in a hifi application. However, he also had supplied much larger bias supply filter caps which was NOT a good idea! He obviously had swallowed the concept that bigger filters meant bigger sound but the filters in the bias supply had nothing to do with the tone. Caps the size as he had provided were large enough to actually need noticeable time to reach full charge. While that was happening the tubes were warming up and were essentially running with way-low bias control voltage! Not a good idea at all as they spent their warmup time trying to burn themselves out.

So to make my point more concisely, I say re-bias every time but allow for 3-5 ma. difference between your tubes!

Still, this comes from someone who has spent years listening to George Thorogood on "11". I may not be the best observer.:banana:


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

superleadfixer said:


> Well I have news for you, the Chinese tubes use to be junk I agree 110%, but the lastest batch of Golden Dragons kt66 or that el34B 11th generation are very good and reliable. MAke a search at the "plexi palace" or the gear page, etc...and see what guys are saying about them. For that price range and tone they beat any other new production by far.....
> 
> just my 2 cent


That may be true for some specific varieties, but in my experience, the majority are still hit and miss. The consistency is not there. The Chinese can make good quality tubes BUT they also still make a lot of crap. There are no minimum standards so quality can be a guessing game. Shuguang makes the tubes you mention for one customer but the rest can be anywhere from good to unuseable. The average guy isn't going to know a Chinese tube from another manufacturer since vendors rebrand them. A good example is the Chinese made Mesa 6V6. You put them in a Super Champ or Deluxe Reverb II and 'poof' back to the store you go. Maybe I'm paranoid but I have not had good experiences with Chinese tubes.


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Hey man your not paranoid, I understand your suspisions on the China stuff, I was the first surprise person to found out they were starting to be good, NOW for myseft I would only buy them via Terry Kilgore "tubetramp guy", he is my tube provider. Terry is an old timer, he knows that stuff better then anyone around, he has thousands of happy camper so you can be assure that if he says there reliable they are. He will be the first to completetly stop selling them the minutes they don't get up with reliability and tone. He deals directly with China. Who knows if the 12th generation kt66 will be crap again. Those are being made as we speak and should be available soon..

My problem is I have difficulty paying $800 for a quad of Mullard xf2 today. It's just getting completely crazy....If I can get close enough tonewise and reliability(wise) with the China stuff and only have to pay $65.00, I win, see!!! If the China stuff keeps improuving maybe the NOS dealers will have to bring there NOS prices stuff down again, then I'd be even happier......

So far so good and let cross our fingers they stay good so I can put my money on .022uf Philips capacitors inventory instead!!!


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Hey Wild Bill you have to words man!! :rockon: 

Just to conclude about the China stuff.............

Manufacturers can't afford to make the metals used in construction of the tube as pure, and the vacuum in the tubes isn't as tight because tighter vacuums cost more time and therefore money. That's why you will often find complaints today of certain manufacturers' tubes being unreliable (eg. power tubes 'red plating' soon after they've been installed). Certain chemicals can't be used for tube production because they are toxic, and the ones that are still allowed to be used today tend to be only legal in countries where workers have less rights, and they don't cost as much to employ either (eg. China, countries formerly in the Soviet Union). That's why old factories in those countries are mostly the only ones still making tubes today, as opposed to old factories in England or USA who's enviromental laws forbits them the usage of certain componants, etc...

A little sad hey??


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

I agree about the price of NOS tubes these days...they're out of everyones price range except the wealthy audiophile. My personal favourite EL34 right now is the JJ E34L. It may not be as good as the Mullard but it is a reliable tube with good tone. I have installed many in Marshalls with very few complaints.


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## Deef (Nov 5, 2006)

I use JJ 6l6's in my Mesa Single Rec, and found Ruby 6l6's to work well in my Engl Fireball. Sovtek 12ax7LPS's also work well in my fireball.


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Make all yourseft a favor:

For the one with a lower budget: go with Tungsol 12ax7 (New Sensor)for your pres and Shuguang el34B, kt66, 11th generation (make sure they are the 11th, no signs on tube itseft, I know where to get them...)


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Actually I find the JJ ECC83 is competatively priced with all New Sensor stuff...Tungstol, Mullard, Sovtec etc. and performes just as well if not better.


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Of course.....but I don't like the JJ has much for the tone, but that is only me....subjective issue here. I think the Tungsol are the closest sounding of the I61


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

That's the beauty of a democracy my friend...everyone's entitled to their own opinion:rockon:


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## Newton (Sep 11, 2006)

Tubes selection is a world by itself, it's a part of what you can do to define your tone. Tubes can definatly color your tone and some tone guru recipies exist in preamp section and a certain choice for PT. At a certain point you can't not look at this aspect. 

This thread is really starting to get interesting. Does someone have some new or NOS recipies on wich amps etc... to suggest? 

Thanks


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Here is how your tone will be accomplish:

it's a 50/50 thing:

first 50% if not more if your hands, without good hands you wan't sound much

Other 50% is your gear, now lets bring the gear itseft in perspective......

100% of the gear now (the gear only...):

40-50% would be speakers, that is a lot, you need the proper cones to acheive your objective

Remaining 50% (for the gear only), is your amp, guitars (wood, strings, strings), pups, effects and set up (3d set up, dry signal, wet signal)

If we take the amp only: the heart of your amp is the transformers, both of them, that will count for at least 40-50% of a good amp tone, second would be the tubes, as important as the trannies, at least 30%-40% of your tone will be effected by them, the rest are the components like caps , good caps like Sozo vintage or Philips caps will make a good 10-15% difference right there, then you just have to choose a circuit and your done...

All the rest is up to your preference as of what effect you want to go for, etc...

My 2 cents....


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

superleadfixer said:


> Here is how your tone will be accomplish:
> 
> 
> If we take the amp only: the heart of your amp is the transformers, both of them, that will count for at least 40-50% of a good amp tone, second would be the tubes, as important as the trannies, at least 30%-40% of your tone will be effected by them, the rest are the components like caps , good caps like Sozo vintage or Philips caps will make a good 10-15% difference right there, then you just have to choose a circuit and your done...
> ...


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Good point Scottone,

To further elaborate on circuit design, there's the factor of component drift
where the components drift sometimes beyond their specifications. I'm not talking large variations but subtle ones.This can, in some cases, have a desirable effect on the overall tone of a given amp. I'm sure anyone who's been in this business has heard the tales of guys wanting their Fender/ Marshall etc. totally overhauled only to have them return because the amp doesn't 'sound' the same. This, of course, can have the opposite effect as well where an amp loses some of it's character due to drift.


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Scottone said:


> superleadfixer said:
> 
> 
> > Here is how your tone will be accomplish:
> ...


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

nonreverb said:


> Good point Scottone,
> 
> To further elaborate on circuit design, there's the factor of component drift
> where the components drift sometimes beyond their specifications. I'm not talking large variations but subtle ones.This can, in some cases, have a desirable effect on the overall tone of a given amp. I'm sure anyone who's been in this business has heard the tales of guys wanting their Fender/ Marshall etc. totally overhauled only to have them return because the amp doesn't 'sound' the same. This, of course, can have the opposite effect as well where an amp loses some of it's character due to drift.


Yep! very true, speacially those Carbon component resistors (among other things...), they have a tendancy to drift upward in time and also in heat.....Cathode resistor in a 1959 Marshall (V1a) is normally a 820ohms and often you will measure those resistors (from an old 35 year old plexi) and they will show 1k, 1.1k, 1.5k even, just that will change the bias in the 12ax7 in a more non linear region, smoothing things around a little.....it goes on and on.......

It's almost impossible to recreate the "oldness," in a "new" amp, only time will make it nicer in some case,.....


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## Newton (Sep 11, 2006)

I'll break the ice! NOS for the Komet 60 from Komet.

"One of Ken Fischer's favorite setups is with a waffle plate ( rib plate ) Telefunkin ECC 83 / 12AX7 for V1, and a Phillips Mini Watt or Amperex Bugle Boy 12AX7 for V2 and a Mullard 12AX7 for V3. If you want to go all out, we recommend Mullard double getter XF2s for EL34s, and a Mullard 5AR4 for a rectifier tube. Of course this would be quite expensive, but it would be un-believable sounding !"


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Newton, if you would go 100% NOS, meaning that all tubes are "NEW" (no hrs on them except for testing) you'll have to spend around...

Telefunken 12ax7 is at least $150USD if perfectly NOS and in 100% good health

Amperex Bugle boy: the same $150us

Mullard I61 or I63: $125us

Duet of Mullard xf2: $300usd+

One important note is that you don't have to buy old glass absolutly "NEW" you can get ANOS (almost new old stock, or even used old tubes, as long they test good and strong, your ok...), you'll be as happy and you'll save money. Knowing that old tubes can last much much longer then anything else, you will see a difference in your pocket ($$), I got a quad of original Mullards for $150 bucks, two xf2, one xf3, one xf4 and they still kick major ass after two years of playing them fully dimed on the knobs a couple of hrs each week end, etc...:rockon2: 

Logo on tubes/original boxes of old tube, etc...are addition to a more or less expensive NOS tube, lots of Mullards were rebranded for other companies ex. Amperex el34 were sometimes Mullards with the Amperex name on the tube, just look at the code on the bottom of the tube will tell you, etc... those can be cheaper then the block Mullard logo, etc....The tube world never ends.....


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## Newton (Sep 11, 2006)

For the Komet this could be a very good option for the first starting set. The bias on this amp is so easy to do, that I could keep my good set for recording or gigging out.


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

Newton said:


> For the Komet this could be a very good option for the first starting set. The bias on this amp is so easy to do, that I could keep my good set for recording or gigging out.


Right on Newton....

The pre amp tubes will make 60%+ of the total tone...Someone could start with those first and so on.....it will only get better and better......

I use JJs as light bulbs for my toilet!! Just Kidding


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## Newton (Sep 11, 2006)

SLF you have a PM.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

superleadfixer said:


> Right on Newton....
> 
> The pre amp tubes will make 60%+ of the total tone...Someone could start with those first and so on.....it will only get better and better......
> 
> I use JJs as light bulbs for my toilet!! Just Kidding


Really? Lightbulbs for your toilet?? Kinda dangerous ain't it? YOU should know better than that!....Just kidding


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## superleadfixer (Oct 14, 2006)

nonreverb said:


> Really? Lightbulbs for your toilet?? Kinda dangerous ain't it? YOU should know better than that!....Just kidding



Hey was joking of course, I'm just trying to share with you all what I think is best etc....You can take my opinion(s) with a grain of salt. You all can do your experiences and fine YOUR "holy grail" of tone...That will be different for all of us. 100 guys, 100ways!! 100 holygrails.........

As long your happy, thats all it counts I guess!!:rockon:


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

superleadfixer said:


> Hey was joking of course, I'm just trying to share with you all what I think is best etc....You can take my opinion(s) with a grain of salt. You all can do your experiences and fine YOUR "holy grail" of tone...That will be different for all of us. 100 guys, 100ways!! 100 holygrails.........
> 
> As long your happy, thats all it counts I guess!!:rockon:


and...more importantly, our customers!:food-smiley-004:


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## coyoteblue (Feb 8, 2006)

Low-cost: I find EH preamp tubes the best for quiet all round use. Tung-Sol are also very nice, a little more gain. JJ's in my DR are harsh in comparison, though JJ 6V6's are hard to beat.

More cost: Groove Tube Mullards are great, but I find they go microphonic pretty quickly. Great in V4 with something like an RCA 7025. I bought a few NOS tubes at exhorbitant prices, but they've gone bad so I'm wary of putting out big money for preamps. Jan Phillips 5751 are also very nice and reasonably priced. Mullard AT7's are reasonably priced and make a big difference for reverb and phase inverter. Jan-Phillips AT7's are also fine, but you notice the difference with the Mullards. I like RCA tubes for Fender but only use them when I luck into a cheap one. A bit noisy but very warm.

That's about the extent of my use and knowledge of tubes.


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