# Hydro one is ripping us off



## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

I didn't realize how big this problem is tell i went to facebook and joined hydro one enough is enough... absolutely terrible what people are going through, some are losing there homes because there hydro bill is so high..

It seems the trouble all started when they installed the so called smart metres , these things don't always work right, one person has a camper, he uses hydro 6 months out of the year, gets a 12,000.00 bill, he complains and hydro says he can pay 951.00 a month.. Hydro doesnt even seem to get, that these very high hydro bills are not right..

How does a person go from paying 1800.00 a year on hydro to getting bills of 1200.00 a month....there is a Rally and petitions going around..the Government needs to do the right thing, for once...


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Check out some of the salaries...http://www.ontario-hydro.com/index.php?page=salaries_2013

Almost 12 000 employees earning over $100 000, for a combined income cost of $1.6 billion a year.
More pigs at the trough and we're paying for it.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I was really hoping one of the parties would put in their platform to run all utilities under strict NPO rules. Nope, we are run by idiots looking after themselves...........


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Accept2 said:


> I was really hoping one of the parties would put in their platform to run all utilities under strict NPO rules. Nope, we are run by idiots looking after themselves...........


No. C'mon, you're just being cynical.:smile-new:


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

My mom lives up north in cottage country and they haven't received a bill in about 18 months now. She's called numerous times and now finally they are aware of the situation but still hasn't received past billings. Im not sure how much her bills are now but they are only paying current usage. It all coincided with the smart meter installation so Im wondering if it wasnt sending any data and they might get off with out back charges. Fat chance, I know....


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

RE: salaries

Some folks have written that so-called "sunshine lists" end up serving to _*increase*_ salaries/comp packages rather than keep them in check; the reason being that all of the people on these lists (or just barely out of reach of them) see what other folks are making, and ask the musical question "How come _they_ get $XXXk and _I _only get $YYYk? What am I, chopped liver?".

I have to admit, though, that is one whole heckuva lot of people in the same organization pulling in well over $300-400k. How could one organization have so many people worth that much? A couple, I could understand, but not THAT many.

In principle, there is nothing wrong with smart meters. Naturally, they have to work properly, be immune to interference or corruption of data, somebody has to be processing the data accurately, and somebody has to be monitoring that the data is accurate and appropriately processed. Not so sure all of those things on the checklist can be checked off.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

Measurement Canada are open for complaints of faulty devices.... https://www.ic.gc.ca/eic/site/mc-mc.nsf/eng/lm03962.html


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I wonder what will happen to the rates when all of our cars need to be plugged in?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Very interesting segment on _The Current _and the CBC news site yesterday, concerning electric cars. A civil engineering prof from U of T looked at the overall life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions for different kinds of vehicles. In some provinces, electric cars were clearly greener than their combustion-engine competitors. However, in 3 provinces - Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Nova Scotia - where a significant share of electrical energy comes from coal-fired plants, rather than hydro-electric sources, the greenhouse gas emissions resulting from producing the electrical energy required to charge and operate electric vehicles, on a per-vehicle rate, were actually well in excess of what fossil-fuel vehicles generate. In other words, the same vehicles that were "green" in some provinces, were decidedly UNgreen in others.

Of course, given how few such vehicles are on the road in Canada, their _total_ contribution to emissions pales in comparison to combustion-engine vehicles, even if, on a per-vehicle basis, they aren't as clean as we hope. But I thought he made a very fair point: you can't just look at the car in isolation; you have to consider where the energy to operate it comes from. I guess the bottom line is that the prairies would really need to start generating electricity via some other means (wind, nuclear), if electric vehicles were to make any environmental inroads there.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

I've seen some interesting stories on The National (CBC) about people going public when their being ripped off. The segments called "Go Public" and usually the issues are resolved when their aired on the show.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

mhammer said:


> RE: salaries
> 
> Some folks have written that so-called "sunshine lists" end up serving to _*increase*_ salaries/comp packages rather than keep them in check; the reason being that all of the people on these lists (or just barely out of reach of them) see what other folks are making, and ask the musical question "How come _they_ get $XXXk and _I _only get $YYYk? What am I, chopped liver?".
> 
> ...


No one is worth that amount of money, especially when people are starving and living on the street. The only term for that is wicked. Evil might also be used.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Very interesting segment on _The Current _and the CBC news site yesterday, concerning electric cars. A civil engineering prof from U of T looked at the overall life-cycle greenhouse gas emissions for different kinds of vehicles. In some provinces, electric cars were clearly greener than their combustion-engine competitors. However, in 3 provinces - Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Nova Scotia - where a significant share of electrical energy comes from coal-fired plants, rather than hydro-electric sources, the greenhouse gas emissions resulting from producing the electrical energy required to charge and operate electric vehicles, on a per-vehicle rate, were actually well in excess of what fossil-fuel vehicles generate. In other words, the same vehicles that were "green" in some provinces, were decidedly UNgreen in others.
> 
> Of course, given how few such vehicles are on the road in Canada, their _total_ contribution to emissions pales in comparison to combustion-engine vehicles, even if, on a per-vehicle basis, they aren't as clean as we hope. But I thought he made a very fair point: you can't just look at the car in isolation; you have to consider where the energy to operate it comes from. I guess the bottom line is that the prairies would really need to start generating electricity via some other means (wind, nuclear), if electric vehicles were to make any environmental inroads there.


I'll call bullshit on this prof, but then again, those who cant, teach........


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

here is a guy building a house... just got some hydro bills..

HERE'S A GOOD ONE, FOLKS!! A buddy of mine is building a home in the country just outside of Bowmanville, hoping to retire in it. It is currently unoccupied. No cooking, no laundry etc. Feb bill was $339.19. Just got his March bill..... $1539.21


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## albert (Apr 15, 2009)

Wow, that's worse than my story. I have a mobile home that is unoccupied. The water is shutoff so the hot water heater is turned off, no lights, fridge unplugged, electric furnace shut off, nothing running except the smart meter. My smallest bill was for $12 but I have had a few that were over $100 that I refused to pay as there is no electricity being used. I told them there must be something wrong with the meter a few times but it made no difference. At least they adjust the bill with no complaints but it is irritating. I should just have the power shut off but I use the trailer for storage and like the option to put a light on. I may also be renting the mobile home out so the new tenants can worry about the hydro bill.


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## bscott (Mar 3, 2008)

But noone at Queen's Park gives a crap! On top of that Ottawa hydro wants increases " for the future grid improvements". Elon Musk's house battery is looking REALLY good right now. Tired of getting constantly screwed over by one government after another. You write letters and get bullshit back. 
One political party is exactly the same as another. They all talk game. But in the end we get fucked over, time and again.


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

sulphur said:


> Check out some of the salaries...http://www.ontario-hydro.com/index.php?page=salaries_2013
> 
> Almost 12 000 employees earning over $100 000, for a combined income cost of $1.6 billion a year.
> More pigs at the trough and we're paying for it.


Our local paper annually writes negative articles about the salaries our power utility people receive. What people don't realize is how tirelessly lineman and operators work to maintain our high level of reliable electricity. Linemen typically get called in the middle of the night during the worst storms of the year to spend days repairing equipment to put customers back in service. Been outside at 2:00 am when its -35 and the wind is howling at 75 km/h? 

There is also risk involved with these jobs. I had a coworker pass away near Christmas while working on a transmission line to maintain the reliability of our electrical system here in Saskatchewan. You know what the worst part is for me? Not only does his wife and children no longer have him around, but he lost his life to keep the power going that has some how become a "necessity" over the last 60 years. People got to charge there latest smart phone, but this poor family no longer has their father. People got to watch the latest episode of "Housewives of Whatever" but this poor family no longer has a husband.

It is very difficult to convey how torn up inside I feel when I hear people talk about how these people don't deserve this kind of money. You can not financially compensate for a lost family member. A lot of these men and women put their life on the lines for the all of us so we can sit in our warm homes at night typing on the Guitars Canada forum.


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## DrHook (Oct 28, 2013)

dcole said:


> Our local paper annually writes negative articles about the salaries our power utility people receive. What people don't realize is how tirelessly lineman and operators work to maintain our high level of reliable electricity. Linemen typically get called in the middle of the night during the worst storms of the year to spend days repairing equipment to put customers back in service. Been outside at 2:00 am when its -35 and the wind is howling at 75 km/h?
> 
> There is also risk involved with these jobs. I had a coworker pass away near Christmas while working on a transmission line to maintain the reliability of our electrical system here in Saskatchewan. You know what the worst part is for me? Not only does his wife and children no longer have him around, but he lost his life to keep the power going that has some how become a "necessity" over the last 60 years. People got to charge there latest smart phone, but this poor family no longer has their father. People got to watch the latest episode of "Housewives of Whatever" but this poor family no longer has a husband.
> 
> It is very difficult to convey how torn up inside I feel when I hear people talk about how these people don't deserve this kind of money. You can not financially compensate for a lost family member. A lot of these men and women put their life on the lines for the all of us so we can sit in our warm homes at night typing on the Guitars Canada forum.


There are many trades that are equally as dangerous and the wages are both less AND more....No one here is saying the linesmen and operators don't deserve what they're getting, the entire gist of the thread is aimed at the ineptness and greed of management and corporations who don't give a rat's patootie if they cause you to go bankrupt because they've charged an exhorbitant amount, and are completely unwilling to listen or concede....you're just a number..and if you don't pay your life can be ruined at the touch of a button. That's what this thread is about. Government needs to regulate utilities like they used to. With an economy the continually widens the gap against the cost of living things are spiraling out of control. If we don't complain, if we don't stand up and take notice, then it just allows those in control to continually bleed us and it just keeps getting worse. I thought I was good with a chunk socked away for retirement and now I worry that between taxes and utilities and auto insurance at best I can self sustain for 8yrs WHEN I do retire, and in the meantime the cost of living keeps escalating. So I ask you...I've worked all my life, am I not entitled to have a little comfort that I pay a reasonable price for, or do I have to continually worry about where I'll end up because I can't afford the power bill when I'm a senior?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Accept2 said:


> I'll call bullshit on this prof, but then again, those who cant, teach........


I found the guy very balanced and non-partisan in his comments and analysis. He wasn't coming out in favour or against anything, merely noting that "green" is not a simple given; sometimes it depends on the larger picture.

Years back, when we lived in Victoria, one of the reporters for Monday magazine did an investigative piece on "paper or plastic", and was similarly surprised to find that what was involved in producing paper bags resulted in a rather shocking amount of effluents being produced; in fact more than plastic bags yielded. Certainly, the biodegradability of paper, not to mention the fact that we never find seabirds or sea-mammals choking on, or tangled up in, paper bags, is a plus in their favour. But the assumption that one gets something-for-nothing is naive. The things which are often sold to us as no-brainer choices can often be very delicate choices that oblige us to balance off a bunch of priorities and issues.

In the case of this prof's analysis, where electricity is produced without having to burn something, electric cars were clearly a very green choice. The trouble was that some provinces generate their electricity in very dirty ways, and depending on that power does not make the operation of such vehicles green. Reduced operation of combustion-engine vehicles, and improvements on their emissions would clearly be desirable, since they are not implicitly "green". And more efficient electric motors and batteries that demand less electrical energy to operate, would also be desirable. But, a broader analysis of those worst-case provinces revealed electric cars to be a bit worse than combustion-engine types.

What is your counter-argument? If it is that the emissions from combustion engines needs to include the emissions from the production of fossil fuels, the way that electric cars need to factor in the coal-fired plants that they need to rely on, then I'd agree. That doesn't make his analysis BS, merely less comprehensive than maybe it ought to have been.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I heard a news item on the radio this morning that the Ontario government was considering or proposing a rate subsidy/reduction for low-income families, but that it would result in slightly higher rates for those NOT receiving the subsidy.

I'm not one of those tax-the-rich screamers, since it is usually not a solution to anything. But in this case, considering the length of that list, couldn't all those folks on the Hydro One sunshine list at least assist in offsetting that subsidy? They are, after all, part of the overhead costs of running the company.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

mhammer said:


> What is your counter-argument?


Counter argument is simple, point the civil engineer in the direction of a mechanical engineer who will try to explain to him the efficiencies of the electric motor over a combustion engine, and how if trains used gas or diesel to propel themselves (they use diesel to power an electric generator which supplies an electric motor), the train engine would be enormous, and the cars behind would be tiny. My electric car's motor has one moving part, and weighs in a whopping 33 pounds. You can pick it up with one hand. Gas engines have 10,000 moving parts, are enormous, and basically just exist to waste energy rather than utilize energy to propel the vehicle. Every moving part requires energy, so in the end, you have something like 1% left for movement. Victory for EMF.........


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

So your counter-argument, assuming I've understood it, is that the overall green-ness of the vehicle needs to take into account the emissions produced during the production of the vehicle? If so, that's a reasonable perspective. The prof's case revolves around the _operation_ of the vehicle. The manufacture of the vehicle happens once, but the operation goes on for a lot longer. He's asking which of the two is greener to operate, and by his analysis, sometimes one inadvertently relies on less clean energy to operate an electric vehicle.

I cannot emphasize enough that this was not an argument _against_ electric cars. Indeed, he argued for use of hybrid vehicles as a sensible alternative in those provinces where electrical energy comes from coal-fired plants.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

mhammer said:


> So your counter-argument, assuming I've understood it, is that the overall green-ness of the vehicle needs to take into account the emissions produced during the production of the vehicle? If so, that's a reasonable perspective. The prof's case revolves around the _operation_ of the vehicle. The manufacture of the vehicle happens once, but the operation goes on for a lot longer. He's asking which of the two is greener to operate, and by his analysis, sometimes one inadvertently relies on less clean energy to operate an electric vehicle.
> 
> I cannot emphasize enough that this was not an argument _against_ electric cars. Indeed, he argued for use of hybrid vehicles as a sensible alternative in those provinces where electrical energy comes from coal-fired plants.


My counter is on the operation of the vehicle. If an electric vehicle needs 1% of the energy of a gas vehicle, then its apples and oranges. You cant assume that electric vehicles will need the same amount of energy. Then you also have to factor in the energy consumption of fuel delivery, the trucks running around, the stations pumping gas, the rigs in the oil sands, the refineries. If we all switched to electric cars, emissions would drop like a stone, because the energy needed for movement would drop like a stone. Gas and diesel exist only to generate profits.........


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I obviously don't have access to his calculations, but my understanding was that they are based on average estimated emissions for average estimated operation of a passenger vehicle of similar vintage (i.e., not a 1998 smoke-bomb sputtering around without even a decent muffler), compared against average estimated emissions produced for the electrical current generation required to charge up an electric vehicle for a similar estimated amount of operation.

You are quite correct that the bigger picture needs to be factored in, and rarely is. If this guy committed any sin, it was that his picture was much bigger than is usually considered, but not big enough. For BC, Ontario, New Brunswick, and Quebec, though, electric cars do exactly what they were intended to do with respect to emissions reduction. I guess it's good to have waterfalls.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I don't know much about anywhere else, but what gets me is that every time I see one of those ever lovin turbines turning I think that taxpayers are guaranteeing 80 cents/ kWh. That is on top of the fiasco that is on our bill every month, and it is also very long term. We should be broke in Ontario for a very long time. The more they turn, the more we lose.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

If the government is willing to buy at a certain price, then you know they have the plan to eventually sell for a much higher price. Pigs at trough.............


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2015)

The problem is that the government produces at a high price and sells 
off excess energy at a huge loss to neighbouring states and provinces.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

So we have an abundance of Energy in Ontario, lots of waterfalls etc. We have so much that we can't use it all so we sell a big chunk of it off to our neighbours and the US at a big loss. Because we sell it at a loss we drive the cost back onto our own taxpayers to help support producing product at a loss. The very people who should benefit from our natural resource are the ones getting hosed. Oh, and while we're at it we'll introduce "smart" meters so the we can hose them at specific times of the day. Lets force people to do their laundry on weekends or late at night, what a great idea. 

Also because the cost of energy is so high in the province we are starting to have companies relocate to reduce overhead. 

And while we're at it why not try to break the backs of the public sector unions so that we can reduce the wages of the very people we're asking to pay these outrageously high prices.

Does that about sum it up?


Only in Canada eh! Pity.


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## whywhyzed (Jan 28, 2008)

the sad part is that the Ontario Liberals, in their ever increasingly fraudulent abuse of the electricity consumer, is making the world's best sales pitch for fossil fuels. 

The fact I can buy my oil or propane from more than one source, keeps it slightly more honestly priced. (despite the taxation)

The monopoly system that ties the grid to our Ontario communities has politicians feces spread along every inch of wire.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

It would be nice if Hydro One was merely a case of corporate greed as a monopoly provider of an essential service - we could deal with that.

However Hydro One is a monopoly corporation still being run much like a government department, but without some of the constraints it would have as a government department. The self-serving management and incompetence in both the corporation and the government is staggering... probably the worst Ontario has ever seen.

There's almost nothing challenging that they are NOT stumbling over, and here's the latest:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/0...ios-bizarre-privatization-plan-for-hydro-one/


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

What is "efficient"?

I ask that in a rhetorical and conceptual sense. That is, when we say "efficient", what do we have in mind?

Is having a single monopoly on hydro-electric power _more_ "efficient", or less efficient than the alternatives? Were the enforced municipal amalgamations of the late 90's more "efficient" than what was already in place?

I think is it all too easy (and sadly, appropriate) to point fingers at any given government or corporation, and critique or ridicule them for their inefficiency, But I have to ask whether that happens as often as it does because, as a society, we have so many conflicting notions of what efficiency IS. Just when, and how often, do we see see planned-for efficiencies materialize? All too often, presumed efficiencies that looked good on paper,turned out quite different than planned.

So is it the case that only morons get involved in strategizing about efficiency, or are our collective expectations and definitions of efficiency a little miscalibrated, such that very few folks CAN get it right? Does *anything *turn out as simple and straightforward as planned, or does absolutely everything come with unanticipated complications and surprises?


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

mhammer said:


> What is "efficient"?


NPOs are efficient. You wouldnt believe how efficient the food bank is running. People at Hydro One should come check it out, but they may be too busy eating lobster and caviar...........


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Accept2 said:


> NPOs are efficient. You wouldnt believe how efficient the food bank is running. People at Hydro One should come check it out, but they may be too busy eating lobster and caviar...........


Are you referring to NFP's? ie Not For Profit organizations? if so, ive been to quite a few who are our clients...trust me, many of them are highly inefficient as well. talk about inmates running the asylum.
re: food banks, most businesses would be efficient as well if they relied on volunteers for a great deal of their labour.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Accept2 said:


> NPOs are efficient. You wouldnt believe how efficient the food bank is running. People at Hydro One should come check it out, but they may be too busy eating lobster and caviar...........



Don't know if you listen to The 180 on CBC, but it's a great source for having one's thinking jogged.

A recent contributor operates a food bank that issues vouchers instead of collecting food. If you want to contribute, you donate money. They interview the clients, assess their food needs, and dole out redeemable vouchers in prioportion to need. One of his points was that conventional food banks that collect food are very *IN*efficient, because so much of their resources has to be allocated to collecting food from drop-off points, and sorting/warehousing food. He found it far more efficient to just give the people the money and let them buy the food they needed. Also sidestepped the issue of being able to provide only packaged/canned goods. Folks who are strapped need a head of lettuce, too.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Now they want to sell off shares of Ontario Hydro, and more and more of it in the future. Such a terrible move, too important to put it in hands of share holders and their ilk. You just have to watch "Smartest guys in the room" to see how that panned out when California privatized electric utilities.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Actually its a brilliant move for them. They will own 90% of the shares, the public the other 10%. The management will increase prices drastically, and kick back dividends. The public will outcry, and the government will simply say, "its not us, its them," while they collect 90% of the dividends. Nice. You must respect the evil mind who came up with this plan.................


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> No one is worth that amount of money, especially when people are starving and living on the street. The only term for that is wicked. Evil might also be used.


From a global perspective you too are wealthy, so don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

dradlin said:


> From a global perspective you too are wealthy, so don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.


remember what you said if hydro sends you a bill for a 2,000.00.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Rick31797 said:


> remember what you said if hydro sends you a bill for a 2,000.00.


when hydro does it, its bad, when Kyoto does it, its good. 

its a little offtopic but dradlins right though, compared to most countries, we are all overpaid and lazy, relatively speaking, not just the "sunshine list" types. Theres nothing evil or wicked about it. if it bothers someone that much, they should put their money where their mouth is, and devote their own incomes to making a difference in the lives of the impoverished instead of pontificating on a guitar forum and pointing fingers at others.
we still have every right to complain about gouging, inefficiency, etc.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

With that sunshine list, I wonder why everyone on here from Ontario isn't working for Hydro One? What's stopping you from getting on that sunshine list?

Personally, I don't think I'd want to do what those guys do - I can make pretty good money without having to do that hazardous kind of work in the worst possible weather. 

And as is mentioned, we are all on the 'sunshine list', if you consider the pov of most everyone from southeast Asia or Africa. It's all perspective, eh?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I guess that's why they call them "smart" meters. Smart for the hydro company.

I never did hear of a test period before they started installing them all over the province.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

dcole said:


> Our local paper annually writes negative articles about the salaries our power utility people receive. What people don't realize is how tirelessly lineman and operators work to maintain our high level of reliable electricity. Linemen typically get called in the middle of the night during the worst storms of the year to spend days repairing equipment to put customers back in service. Been outside at 2:00 am when its -35 and the wind is howling at 75 km/h?
> 
> There is also risk involved with these jobs. I had a coworker pass away near Christmas while working on a transmission line to maintain the reliability of our electrical system here in Saskatchewan. You know what the worst part is for me? Not only does his wife and children no longer have him around, but he lost his life to keep the power going that has some how become a "necessity" over the last 60 years. People got to charge there latest smart phone, but this poor family no longer has their father. People got to watch the latest episode of "Housewives of Whatever" but this poor family no longer has a husband.
> 
> It is very difficult to convey how torn up inside I feel when I hear people talk about how these people don't deserve this kind of money. You can not financially compensate for a lost family member. A lot of these men and women put their life on the lines for the all of us so we can sit in our warm homes at night typing on the Guitars Canada forum.


i spent the entire month of feb working outside for $36/hr. i regularly work nights when the situation demands it. my job has it's hazards too. so i feel that it's no sadder when some electrician dies on the job after making insanely high wages, than it would be when a sheetmetal worker dies on the job making far, far less.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> I guess that's why they call them "smart" meters. Smart for the hydro company.
> 
> I never did hear of a test period before they started installing them all over the province.



The smart metres, cost 2 billion in just Ontario......they were never tested for extremely cold and hot temperatures, there have been some that caught fire.. this is just another Government fail , that we pay for...


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

This uprising in Ontario over very high electricity cost is not directed toward the electricity works on the front line in all kinds of weather, it about Hydro one managers and the government that are making these stupid decisions..


the sunshine list just came out.... Carmin Marcello President and Chief Executive Officer  makes $745,000 - and Kathleen Wynn makes 304, 000 and ontario Power generation - Tom Mitchell makes 1.5 million...... I'm sure they can afford Hydro !! Cut their salaries to what the average Canadian makes..... why does anyone need to earn $745,000 a year..... that's $28,000 every two weeks!!!! ... the average family earns between $22,00 - $40, 000 or so a year... there is way to big of a divide between the rich and the working poor.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

The end game is they want to charge world prices for electricity like gas. The prices cant just jump in one go, they have to push it up slowly. It also has to look legit, so they hire more and more executives at crazy salaries. Why dont we all work for Hydro One? Because its all done through nepotism and connections. My guess is guitar players dont rub enough soldiers with Ontario's elite............


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Accept2 said:


> The end game is they want to charge world prices for electricity like gas. The prices cant just jump in one go, they have to push it up slowly. It also has to look legit, so they hire more and more executives at crazy salaries. Why dont we all work for Hydro One? Because its all done through nepotism and connections. _*My guess is guitar players don.t rub enough soldiers with Ontario's elite..*_..........


 Did you mean shoulders?

That's because we're too busy rubbing fretboards.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

Surprise surprise surprise! The "debt retirement charge" we've been paying to reduce the ~$20b debt amassed by electricity operations has not retired the debt, which keeps rising due to errors and "sleight of hand" and spending on other things and secrecy about the numbers. A new tax on electricity is likely.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/c...rvice-a-residual-stranded-debt-of-7-8-billion


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

The debt retirement charge was paid up in 2011, they have been using it for other reasons, but wont really say..


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

Rick31797 said:


> The debt retirement charge was paid up in 2011, they have been using it for other reasons, but wont really say..


Some of the "other reasons" are spelled out in the article I linked above. For example, increased costs of operation such as pension liabilities were added to the once-fixed "stranded debt" we were supposed to be repaying. When revenue fell short of projections they added that too. The debt was not paid up in 2011; in fact they added almost 1/2 billion dolars to it in 2011 and still carried billions in debt then which SHOULD have been retired in 2011. We're still paying, four years later. The Liberals have promised to eliminate the debt retirement charge in 2016 but they are either lying again or they will have to collect the tax under another name since they will still have billions in debt. They're playing a shell game.

As quoted in the article linked above, the former Deputy Minister of Energy (chief non-political officer) said: "This is sleight of hand," and “It’s a giant slush fund effectively. Lots of other liabilities have been added in as a result of various manipulations the government has made.”


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

I keep hearing that we (Ontario) are paying more for our hydro than all other provinces, and most of the United States. Are there numbers anywhere to back up that claim? Not saying that its untrue but I'd like to see the numbers in black and white for myself.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

bagpipe said:


> I keep hearing that we (Ontario) are paying more for our hydro than all other provinces, and most of the United States. Are there numbers anywhere to back up that claim? Not saying that its untrue but I'd like to see the numbers in black and white for myself.


Here's one resource (a map in the early pages summarizes the point):

http://www.hydroquebec.com/publications/en/docs/comparaison-electricity-prices/comp_2014_en.pdf

The rates in the commercial engines of California and New York / Massachusetts should be read as a warning. Electricity infrastructure development - especially nuclear - needed to meet easily-predictable demand has been mired and stalled for over thirty years by 'green' groups who fantasized that if the development of 'traditional' projects they didn't like was made difficult and un-economic then other greener alternatives would be able to take over to meet the demand.

Well, not quite. Yet despite that hard and incontrovertible evidence similar "thinking" has been allowed to steer the energy policy of the Ontario Liberal government. Even with our buffer advantage over the U.S. coasts of cheap hydro-electric power (both tapped and untapped) we face costly increases. A few people will make money like bandits, the rest of us will be poorer. It didn't have to be this way.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)




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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

Rick31797 said:


>


Where is this from? Thx.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

boyscout said:


> Where is this from? Thx.



I belong to a forum called HYDRO ONE ENOUGH IS ENOUGH, on Facebook, there are 18,000 members and it was posted on the site.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

Hope this will be seen as a continuation of the OP's discussion about electricity rates; sorry if not!

Article at the following link presents an interesting overview of issues in storing less-expensive electricity to replace more-expensive electricity.

http://rameznaam.com/2015/04/14/energy-storage-about-to-get-big-and-cheap/

The article mentions the Tesla product announced to great fanfare recently. Prices will have to come down before most of us can go this way.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> With that sunshine list, I wonder why everyone on here from Ontario isn't working for Hydro One? What's stopping you from getting on that sunshine list?
> 
> Personally, I don't think I'd want to do what those guys do - I can make pretty good money without having to do that hazardous kind of work in the worst possible weather.
> 
> And as is mentioned, we are all on the 'sunshine list', if you consider the pov of most everyone from southeast Asia or Africa. It's all perspective, eh?


well, the answer to your first question is easy...nepotism! They don't hire just anybody there anymore.
The thing, is, just because you work for a utility, doesnt mean youre the guy climbing the poles in a storm.
My wifes uncle works at a nuclear power plant in Ontario and routinely pulls in $100g a year...surely, he must be some sort of highly trained nuclear expert, right? he works in the laundry room. Yes, he puts in a lot of overtime there...but come, on its, laundry.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I did income taxes for a husband and wife team who worked at hydro. He was some kind of linesman supervisor (made $130k one year with overtime that I recall) and she was a secretary (salary of 74k). They're both retired (younger than I am **sigh**) and moved up north to a lovely property. On top of very good pensions, he contracts himself back to hydro up there.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

On May 1st, another 15% increase in the cost of peak-hours electricity use from Ontario's electricity business. "It will be more than twice as expensive to use electricity between 11am and 5pm on weekdays than at night or on weekends."

Of course the vast majority of those using electricity during that period have no choice but to use it then. They are the businesses where most of us work, shop, eat lunch, get cars repaired, etc. Those irresponsible wastrels who deserve punitive rates for not running their businesses at night.

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/04/20/hydro-rates-going-up-may-1


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

There is a protest at Queens park, may 13.. they have buses going there.....


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Oh you guys, attacking the rich and privileged again..............


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2015)

and the lieberals got a majority because ..?


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

laristotle said:


> and the lieberals got a majority because ..?


... government employees voted to protect their jobs while most others stayed home thinking their vote doesn't make a difference.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

laristotle said:


> and the lieberals got a majority because ..?


Because the CONvicts couldn't put together any kind of reasonable platform.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

sulphur said:


> Because the CONvicts couldn't put together any kind of reasonable platform.


Doesnt answer the question. I voted NPD and still wonder why others didnt as well. For a change they had the best platform...............


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Accept2 said:


> Doesnt answer the question. I voted NPD and still wonder why others didnt as well. For a change they had the best platform...............


It was their election to lose, and they did just that.

Bobble-head representative, with a ridculous platform.

I also voted NDP.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Diablo said:


> well, the answer to your first question is easy...*nepotism*! They don't hire just anybody there anymore.
> The thing, is, just because you work for a utility, doesnt mean youre the guy climbing the poles in a storm.
> *My wifes uncle works at a nuclear power plant* in Ontario and routinely pulls in $100g a year...surely, he must be some sort of highly trained nuclear expert, right? he works in the laundry room. Yes, he puts in a lot of overtime there...but come, on its, laundry.


So you've got an 'in'. And yet you still don't work for them. Hmmmmm........

Personally, I think doing laundry for $100k sounds like a good gig. I'd be all over that, especially if my wife's uncle could show me the ropes. Guess it depends on what you want.

- - - Updated - - -



Rick31797 said:


> There is a protest at Queens park, may 13.. *they have buses going there*.....


It'd be an interesting touch of irony if they were electric trolleys. With energy costs subsidized by the homeowner's rates.


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## Rski (Dec 28, 2013)

Hydro One took on to much to soon, the so call smart meter program was some stupid incentive to curb hydro usage during peak times, however, the program was rushed across the entire province without working out the bugs so they ended up with mixed metering and other meters not communicating. But that's okay, its a crown corporation, loss of revenue is tangible, just guesstimate the consumption on that customers previous consumption profile,

Item number two, billing underwent a revamp of its data system, so with that said, the migration of accounts much like the smart meters was rushed through with accounts mixed and money being taken from peoples accounts with massive withdraws $ and then they can't return the money, so credits are given ??? 

Another dumb idea was the Green Energy program, remember some years ago out inept provincial government launched that program only to realize its escalating the cost and pulled the program leaving would be investors reeling and we buried that dumb initiative.

Now Ontario has a hate on for wind energy, once word gets out the environmentalist go nuts claiming health care issues, just because out media blew smoke on how peoples lives were literally ruined, what ever. I had the experience of cycling on Wolf Island off from Kingston a few summers ago, and several windmills are seen on that island. Rode up close and these turbines didn't sound all that bad, the only noise evident is the inverter fed transformer that is a little noticeable but so are sub stations heard ... sooooo

To top that off our Provincial leader wants to sell off a majority stake, then when it goes private with the current culture firmly seated, cost can't go down


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

According to what people are saying, the smart metres were never CSA approved...what if i had a business making a electric motors and decided not to have them CSA approved..would i get any customers buying my product,would the government come down hard on me...probably.... but in this case they were put on all homes across Canada, even the temp. rating are not good enough.. i think it says -30 c to 50 c... there was many days in Feb, we were below -30

I heard on the radio yesterday Goodyear of Napanee was going to add millions in an expansion of the plant, but have decided to build in Mexico, one of the reasons..The high price of Hydro.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Didn't I hear of trouble with the Smart meters in Saskatchewan?
Weren't there meters that caught fire, or something to that effect?

Here's something on that...http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitch...katchewan-in-use-in-waterloo-region-1.2731339


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Rick31797 said:


> According to what people are saying, the smart metres were never CSA approved...what if i had a business making a electric motors and decided not to have them CSA approved..would i get any customers buying my product,would the government come down hard on me...probably.... but in this case they were put on all homes across Canada, even the temp. rating are not good enough.. i think it says -30 c to 50 c... there was many days in Feb, we were below -30
> 
> I heard on the radio yesterday Goodyear of Napanee was going to add millions in an expansion of the plant, but have decided to build in Mexico, one of the reasons..The high price of Hydro.


the cost of doing business in Canada, especially in Ontario has been chasing businesses out of the country for 20 years now. Automotive has all but vanished. When they closed the GM foundry here back in '94 it was the most efficient, highest quality, modern with the best air scrubbers money could buy. They had a choice of closing one out of 5 operating foundries in North America. The other 4 being in the States and they were all stink holes some with open roofs still, I was in them all. They closed the one in Canada. Unless the dollar is way to the advantage of the American buyers ie GM assembly plants, you simply can't compete given the costs to operate it. Hydro has gotten out of control. Even for my small business I am putting out close to $1000 a month. Dude next to me running a Pizza place is paying $1600 a month and his ovens are gas? His gas bills are outrageous. Working 7 days a week and just surviving. They just announced another increase last week. Business rates are even more than home rates.

You want another rant. We use no gas from April through October. NONE. the only thing that uses gas at my shop is the roof top AC/Heat. and unless we run heat there is no gas used. During those months we do not use gas I get bills saying usage 0 and close to around $171 in fees. So I am paying Enbridge for 7 months straight for absolutely nothing. They suck the life blood out of any small business.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

It`s just a matter of time, all small business will be gone and the bigger business will either close or be bought out by US companies, just like what we just seen with Future shops, A great Canadian Business, then Best buy moves in, there a Buy out, and then Best BUY takes over, and shuts down the stores.. Once the buy out happened it was all over for future shops..

The effect Best buy had on these country forced Sears to stop selling all Electronics... So many Canadian stores are gone..The only strong one i can think of is Canadian tire..They have done a great job in preparing for the future, and seem to have Marks work warehouse in good standing..


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> So you've got an 'in'. And yet you still don't work for them. Hmmmmm........
> 
> Personally, I think doing laundry for $100k sounds like a good gig. I'd be all over that, especially if my wife's uncle could show me the ropes. Guess it depends on what you want.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -


??
I don't have an "in" at all. Not like jobs there open up that often, no one leaves them. Plus, the plant is almost 3 hours from where we live. Plus, I already make good money in an occupation of my choosing....I didn't go to school for so many years and work years in my field to do someones laundry for a living. 
My point was, FOR SOMEONE THAT WOULD WANT TO WORK THERE, it just isnt that easy or accessible. But if you do happen to get in, an otherwise barely literate idiot with a drinking problem (youd have to meet this uncle to understand  ) can make an exceptionally good living without any skills, brains or education required.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I received this in an email from Andrea Horvath today, regarding Wynnes campaign to privatize Hydro:
http://youpaytheprice.ca/

for me, its an example of why the NDP will never get elected here...no information at all for someone to make an intelligent rational decision, just a solicitation for knee-jerk responses. How about an outline of the pros and cons of privatization? alternative solutions? something/anything??


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## Guest (Apr 30, 2015)

Diablo said:


> But if you do happen to get in, an otherwise barely literate idiot with a drinking problem (youd have to meet this
> uncle to understand  ) can make an exceptionally good living without any skills, brains or education required.


Hmm .. makes me wonder if he was the inspiration for Homer?


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Read a very interesting article a few weeks ago. Turns out that one of the major factors driving increased hydro rates is............ get ready for this now....... energy conservation initiatives. So basically the more you use the cheaper it is. There is no winning my friends


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## amp boy (Apr 23, 2009)

let's get a GC Tesla group buy going


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Ok, I'm just some poor B.C. guy living for the moment in the 52nd or 53rd state of Alberta....if it can be privatized, it is.....and I'm wondering, what's a 'smart meter'? Here the gas and power meters are the standard glass encased, dials go round, meters. Not too sure how they read them but they're at a level where anyone can read the dials. The water meter doesn't have dials just numbers that turn over like an old fashioned odometer on a car. The people that come to read them are private contractors working for the private companies who supply the power and gas and for the city in the case of the water meter.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

The braintrust here has decided that electricity should cost more at certain times of the day, such as between 7:00AM and 7:00PM thru the week, and a slightly cheaper rate between 7:00PM and Midnight. Weekends are a flat rate. The "smart" meters allow them to tell when and how much power you are using.

We're being raped.

And never forget that we are selling our excess power to other Provinces and the USA for less than we get charged.



Electraglide said:


> Ok, I'm just some poor B.C. guy living for the moment in the 52nd or 53rd state of Alberta....if it can be privatized, it is.....and I'm wondering, what's a 'smart meter'? Here the gas and power meters are the standard glass encased, dials go round, meters. Not too sure how they read them but they're at a level where anyone can read the dials. The water meter doesn't have dials just numbers that turn over like an old fashioned odometer on a car. The people that come to read them are private contractors working for the private companies who supply the power and gas and for the city in the case of the water meter.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> So you've got an 'in'. And yet you still don't work for them. Hmmmmm........
> 
> Personally, I think doing laundry for $100k sounds like a good gig. I'd be all over that, especially if my wife's uncle could show me the ropes. Guess it depends on what you want.
> 
> ...


The guy works in the laundry of a Nuclear power plant. Washing things that come in contact, directly or indirectly, with things that heat water up with out fire and glow in the dark. To my understanding you have to wear a little badge and hope that it doesn't change color or beep or what ever it does. Probably worth the $100 g but they say being near those places can affect "the boys". No one is coming near "the boys" with out my say so and when they do I want to enjoy it. Nope, not for me. I'll take a safe job like selling smoke to guitar players. Ok, who wants to buy a lid? A nicklebag? How about a joint? "No stems, no seeds, just far out weed. Rocky Mountain Leaf is all you need."


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

davetcan said:


> The braintrust here has decided that electricity should cost more at certain times of the day, such as between 7:00AM and 7:00PM thru the week, and a slightly cheaper rate between 7:00PM and Midnight. Weekends are a flat rate. The "smart" meters allow them to tell when and how much power you are using.
> 
> We're being raped.
> 
> And never forget that we are selling our excess power to other Provinces and the USA for less than we get charged.


Not too sure but I don't think we get some of our power here from Ontario. Is it a cheaper rate between midnight and 7 am? From what I've read in the thread you aren't getting raped. Nope, sounds like you're fresh fish and the guards have taken the week end off. They've got you over a barrel and there's a train a coming.....and it ain't the freedom train.


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## amp boy (Apr 23, 2009)

What can the people of Ontario do...:sAng_scream:....the new 51Cent Bill would deem you a terrorist if you blocked the road to a power plant in protest.......and the political route......ya.....riiiiiiiight.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

http://www.ontarioenergyboard.ca/OEB/Consumers/Electricity/Electricity+Prices

and by comparison

http://www.energyshop.com/es/prices/AB/eleAB.cfm?ldc_id=447



Electraglide said:


> Not too sure but I don't think we get some of our power here from Ontario. Is it a cheaper rate between midnight and 7 am? From what I've read in the thread you aren't getting raped. Nope, sounds like you're fresh fish and the guards have taken the week end off. They've got you over a barrel and there's a train a coming.....and it ain't the freedom train.


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## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

It's sad when they say we must conserve and when we do... they raise the rates to line there pockets.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

davetcan said:


> http://www.ontarioenergyboard.ca/OEB/Consumers/Electricity/Electricity+Prices
> 
> and by comparison
> 
> http://www.energyshop.com/es/prices/AB/eleAB.cfm?ldc_id=447


We're with Enmax Red Deer. .0511/kwh. or so I think. Our monthly bill is on average fairly low.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

They're essentially forcing people to change their lifestyles, laundry is now done on the weekends, just when we want down time, for example. Same with vacuuming etc. A/C is of course usually only required during the hottest part of the day, which will now cost us 16c/kwh and is going up yet again.



Electraglide said:


> We're with Enmax Red Deer. .0511/kwh. or so I think. Our monthly bill is on average fairly low.


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## Guest (May 10, 2015)

Well, I hope that everyone that gave Wynne a majority are 
happy for what she's sticking to us. Pass the lube, please.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I like my A/C but this year the t'stat is up at 75-76F, up from 72F the last 30 years.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

It's a trainwreck, and they're only just getting started.



laristotle said:


> Well, I hope that everyone that gave Wynne a majority are
> happy for what she's sticking to us. Pass the lube, please.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

Queen Park Rally is on Wed.. May 13th

here is what the organizer just posted..


Okay everyone!!! Two days and we will see you all to fight our fight TOGETHER at Queens Park!!! Admins are going to be crazy busy for the next two days, but will still be around to answer any questions you may have, message or call us...and PLEASE get on the buses!! 

We need you all! As promised for this morning....here is our list if speakers (order yet to be determined) for Wednesday...Admins from Hydro One-Enough is Enough....Randy Hillier (Frontenac, Lanark,Lennox &Addington)....Steve Clark (Leeds,Grenville)....Parker Gallant Wind Concerns Ontario)....Jack McLaren (Carleton,Mississippi Mills), Patrick Brown (Barrie) and our new leader of the PC Party!!!!! .....Cindy Moyer (founder and former president of Huron/Bruce Landowners)....Peter Tabuns NDP(energy critic)....John Yakabuski PC (energy critic)....John Vanthof (Timiskaming,Cochrane) &Rural Affairs Critic


And our own Bryan Collins Rason...playing his original songs for us including the song he wrote for our group and this cause....i need to edit some of these...but these are all of our confirmed speakers at the moment! Please be there to hear what they have to say on our behalf!


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Rick31797 said:


> Queen Park Rally is on Wed.. May 13th
> 
> here is what the organizer just posted..
> 
> Okay everyone!!! Two days and we will see you all to fight our fight TOGETHER at Queens Park!!


Good luck with the protest. I wish I was in TO so that I could attend. It'll be interesting to see how much coverage this gets on the various news outlets on Wednesday.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I came across some big scam on FB the other day. Some solar company wanting to give you $3000 to install a solar system on your house and they sell all the power to Hydro for 20 years. After the 20 years you can use the power for yourself. Surprisingly there have been many takers. Barnum was right. The big sell? You are doing your part for energy conservation. Indeed


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

I have seen that, i would say scam also.. and people are taking it, one remark was, my roof is making me some money..well i am not that desperate yet.. they will give you a lump sum of 3,000.00 or you can take the 400.00 a yr offer..while they collect thousands off your roof.. One guy was complaining he had leaks in his roof after they installed them.





GuitarsCanada said:


> I came across some big scam on FB the other day. Some solar company wanting to give you $3000 to install a solar system on your house and they sell all the power to Hydro for 20 years. After the 20 years you can use the power for yourself. Surprisingly there have been many takers. Barnum was right. The big sell? You are doing your part for energy conservation. Indeed


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I came across some big scam on FB the other day. Some solar company wanting to give you $3000 to install a solar system on your house and they sell all the power to Hydro for 20 years. After the 20 years you can use the power for yourself. Surprisingly there have been many takers. Barnum was right. The big sell? You are doing your part for energy conservation. Indeed


Well, not really a "scam" right? Those who can't front the cost of the installation and directly sell solar-generated electricity themselves can get a $3K up-front payment or $8K over 20 years for giving up their roof space. Not a very attractive offer to me either, but legal and more than they'd get for doing nothing. I dunno, they might save some on roof shingles too!


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

boyscout said:


> Well, not really a "scam" right? Those who can't front the cost of the installation and directly sell solar-generated electricity themselves can get a $3K up-front payment or $8K over 20 years for giving up their roof space. Not a very attractive offer to me either, but legal and more than they'd get for doing nothing. I dunno, they might save some on roof shingles too!


How's about putting away $800 a year into savings and doubling your money without the panels all over your roof? Not to mention what condition the equipment would be in after 20 years in the sun and weather. The deal makes no sense to me at all under any circumstances.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> How's about putting away $800 a year into savings and doubling your money without the panels all over your roof? Not to mention what condition the equipment would be in after 20 years in the sun and weather. The deal makes no sense to me at all under any circumstances.



Also after 20 yrs, are there materials in the units , have to be professionally taken and disposed of.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

GuitarsCanada said:


> How's about putting away $800 a year into savings and doubling your money without the panels all over your roof? Not to mention what condition the equipment would be in after 20 years in the sun and weather. The deal makes no sense to me at all under any circumstances.


Putting $400 per year (it's $400, not $800) of your own money into savings isn't nearly as good as putting $400 of someone ELSE'S money into your savings, right? I'm not arguing that it's a great idea, just that it's not technically a "scam".


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

boyscout said:


> Putting $400 per year (it's $400, not $800) of your own money into savings isn't nearly as good as putting $400 of someone ELSE'S money into your savings, right? I'm not arguing that it's a great idea, just that it's not technically a "scam".


Not arguing either. Just trying to point out that its of little to zero value on the homeowners end. Also I said double your money. $400 x 20 is $8000 and $800 x 20 is $16,000. 

If someone is that hard up that they need $400 a year to survive or somehow find a real need for it then they most likely don't own a home and never will. Sorry but I simply don't see an upside for the homeowner. Just not there


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