# You just can't make this stuff up



## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

Well I took the Humming bird back,paid my restocking fee yadda yadda yadda. I started looking for a new guitar. I came across another dealer with a similar Bird on sale. I called them up . Wouldn't you know it the pick guard was coming off this one too. The lady said she would check at some of their other stores for me for one that was ready to go. She phoned three other stores and said only one had a pick guard intact. I called them up told them how a previous dealer had sold me a bird with a bum pick guard and how I had to pay a restocking fee on damaged goods. I explained how this was a gift and that I was obliged as a man and husband to replace this symbol of love from my wife. Come hell or high water I was gonna have that new guitar for Christmas. I was in a bind . I just couldn't turn down a gift like this from my wife but I couldn't accept a substandard guitar from Gibson.either. I was now a little gun shy about Gibsons. I asked the sales person if they could send pics of the bird on sale and pics of a HD-28 as well. They did send a few shots of the Martin but before I could decide the store closed . It was Saturday and they would not be open again until Monday. Monday morning came I picked up the phone, I called and made the deal. I bought the Martin. They shipped it I waited the two days. When it arrived it was in worse shape than the Gibson I sent back. The top was all rippled as if the wood grain was coming through I was so worried I contacted Martin customer service. I sent them a picture . The CS rep said it was a case of grossly over or under humidification and that it obviously happened at the store. The store , Martin and region manager are going to decide what they can do for me. As it stands they have offered me an exchange. I hope I don't have to pay some kinda fee on this one. 

P.S. 
Many thanks to all those who have been so supportive in what is obviously an unbelievably hard experience.
Thanks kenute


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

From what I have seen and read, Martin stands behind their product very well. (So does Taylor). I think they will treat you as a goo customer. If they know about the Gibson, they will even do more to make it right for you.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I was gonna suggest a Martin D-18 as thats closer to a hummingbird than an HD-28. However I don't know why you are having all these issues with quality. I have heard that Gibson can be real hit and miss and other than an R7 I bought last year I don't have much experience with Gibson. When it comes to Gibson acoustics I just don't like them tonewise.
However I've got a lot of experience with Martins. I've played literally hundreds and have owned 8 in the past 20 years. I've never had an issue with quality. I think now Martin has a good track record for quality.
Out of the 8 Martin guitars I owned I had one issue. On a D-28 I bought brand new, the finish started peeling off after a month. Long and Mcquade sent it back to the factory for me to be refinished. Long and Mcquade also gave me a used HD-35 off the floor to take home to use for as long as my guitar took to come back, which ended up being 6 months. 
So Martin did take care of me but more importantly so did the retailer. And thats important. Sounds like in your area the retailers aren't very supportive.


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## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

Steadfastly said:


> From what I have seen and read, Martin stands behind their product very well. (So does Taylor). I think they will treat you as a goo customer. If they know about the Gibson, they will even do more to make it right for you.


Hello Steadfastly I feel quite confident as far as Martin is concerned. They responded right away . Gibson on the other hand leaves me doubtful about their service. Before I tried to buy the second hummingbird I phoned Gibson customer service. I told them how I had found several guitars with pick guards coming off and asked if their was some kind of systemic problem with their pick guards. They said they were not aware of any problem. So what am I some kind of unlucky schlep who somehow is able to find the only faulty pick guards Gibson ever made? The CS rep was however quick to point out that Gibson does not cover warranty issues for Canadians. So I bought the Martin instead.
Best regards Kenute


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## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> I was gonna suggest a Martin D-18 as thats closer to a hummingbird than an HD-28. However I don't know why you are having all these issues with quality. I have heard that Gibson can be real hit and miss and other than an R7 I bought last year I don't have much experience with Gibson. When it comes to Gibson acoustics I just don't like them tonewise.
> However I've got a lot of experience with Martins. I've played literally hundreds and have owned 8 in the past 20 years. I've never had an issue with quality. I think now Martin has a good track record for quality.
> Out of the 8 Martin guitars I owned I had one issue. On a D-28 I bought brand new, the finish started peeling off after a month. Long and Mcquade sent it back to the factory for me to be refinished. Long and Mcquade also gave me a used HD-35 off the floor to take home to use for as long as my guitar took to come back, which ended up being 6 months.
> So Martin did take care of me but more importantly so did the retailer. And thats important. Sounds like in your area the retailers aren't very supportive.


Hello guitarman2. I think your right about the D-18. It is closer to the Hummingbird. For some reason I liked the HD-28 better. 
We only have one dealer in our town that carries Martin ,Taylor , Fender and Gibson. In fact that's where I went to try out the Martins. I figure that since they got my restocking fee I am kinda entitled to go right in and pick up a new model and strum away. So that's what I did . I tried it locally but bought it out of town. And yes they are not supportive after purchasing an instrument but they'll do just fine for trying stuff out. As far as the folks that sold me the Martin go, we'll just have to wait and see. They were quite apologetic and seemed quite sincere . I just can't believe all this happening to me. 
Best regards Kenute


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## jimmy c g (Jan 1, 2008)

shit man what luck, the last couple years have been brutal with some makers qc, maybe smaller dealers like folkway would tell the truth when selling a git, I really hope your frustration is short lived and you get to guitar glee soon jim


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## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

Thanks jimmy c g I honestly think that Martin's qc is not in question here. Gibson on the other hand...well that's a different story. And to think I wasn't even in the market for a new guitar when this all started. I'm also sure their are good reputable dealers out there like Folkway . 

Regards kenute


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

jimmy c g said:


> shit man what luck, the last couple years have been brutal with some makers qc, maybe smaller dealers like folkway would tell the truth when selling a git,


When it comes to Folkway I would buy a guitar there sight unseen. When I go there every guitar I pick up has great fit and finish and sounds amazing. They set up every guitar beautifully and they change the strings often. If you know what it is your after then ordering online from Folkway is about as risk free as it gets.


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## JCJ (Jan 3, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> When it comes to Folkway I would buy a guitar there sight unseen. When I go there every guitar I pick up has great fit and finish and sounds amazing. They set up every guitar beautifully and they change the strings often. If you know what it is your after then ordering online from Folkway is about as risk free as it gets.


+1 for Folkways.
I would be very hesitant to buy an acoustic from a store that is predominantly electric. Lots of great small-store luthiers around too.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Kenute said:


> Hello guitarman2. I think your right about the D-18. It is closer to the Hummingbird. For some reason I liked the HD-28 better.
> We only have one dealer in our town that carries Martin ,Taylor , Fender and Gibson. In fact that's where I went to try out the Martins. I figure that since they got my restocking fee I am kinda entitled to go right in and pick up a new model and strum away. So that's what I did . I tried it locally but bought it out of town. And yes they are not supportive after purchasing an instrument but they'll do just fine for trying stuff out. As far as the folks that sold me the Martin go, we'll just have to wait and see. They were quite apologetic and seemed quite sincere . I just can't believe all this happening to me.
> Best regards Kenute


If there is a new D-35 you can try give that a go. If you like the sound of the D-35 there is one at Folkway right now that has some the nicest EIR grain I've ever seen. It rings and resonates better than any D-35 I've ever tried. If I had the $3,600 I would have bought it.


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## jimmy c g (Jan 1, 2008)

d 35s are so sweet, love the 3 piece back , lifetime warranty for neck sets etc is awesome as well, Shit,now I want one !... excuse my gas, it comes on unexpectedly ...j


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

jimmy c g said:


> d 35s are so sweet, love the 3 piece back , lifetime warranty for neck sets etc is awesome as well, Shit,now I want one !... excuse my gas, it comes on unexpectedly ...j


Unfortunately the era of unconditional neck resets on warranty is reported to be at an end. Reports of many warrant claims for neck resets being refused unless its actually separating from the body. There is an in depth conversation about this at the UMGF. The likelihood that your claim will be accepted is better if needed before the 5 year mark than it is after the 10 - 15 year mark. Martin claims that there warranty was always based on these parameters. At one time they were less discriminating so it was likely your claim would be approved. Now they are clamping down it seems.


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## jimmy c g (Jan 1, 2008)

what the fret ? I never thought a martin would need a reset in 5 or less years, they didnt use to, also very sad too hear the warranty is crumbling as it was one of the best secondary reasons to buy martin, as a canadian with a j45 Im used to the company not properly warrantying, no offense to l and m they try but...


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I know this is the acoustic forum, but i'm a little disappointed with a used Gibson lp jr. I just bought and although it is in mint shape, it looks like they didn't even sand the slab. From a few feet away it looks great, but hold it up close you can see ripples. I have no idea how much a brand new Junior costs, but the paint on my Epiphone black beauty puts the Gibson to shame. If I ever GAS for another LP it will be a Burny from Japan.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

jimmy c g said:


> what the fret ? I never thought a martin would need a reset in 5 or less years, they didnt use to, also very sad too hear the warranty is crumbling as it was one of the best secondary reasons to buy martin, as a canadian with a j45 Im used to the company not properly warrantying, no offense to l and m they try but...


It is unusual for a Martin to need a neck reset but not unheard of. I guess thats why its more likely your warranty claim wouldn't be rejected. Where as the 15 year mark and on its considered a symptom of time and just something that needs to be done on this type of neck joint. 
There were a lot of owners of Authentics needing a neck reset as soon as they got the guitar or within one month to one year after getting the guitar. Mine look very good and I don't see a potential problem. The guitars that come from the factory already needing a neck reset is evident they just weren't very careful when setting the angle during the build.
Many people over at UMGF are stating that with the neck reset not being a guarantee its more motivation to not buy new. I agree with them.


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

One guitar is bad luck. Multiple guitars from multiple dealers and manufactures suggests a systemic problem. Sounds like crap guitars are getting dumped north of the border where there is little to no recourse.


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

Double post.


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## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

BSTheTech said:


> One guitar is bad luck. Multiple guitars from multiple dealers and manufactures suggests a systemic problem. Sounds like crap guitars are getting dumped north of the border where there is little to no recourse.


I gotta think the Sane way BSTheTech and I'm gonna find out. The dealer has agreed to ship a new outta the box HD-28 . Is it a new 2016? Is it something someone from the states has sent back , refurbished by Martin and then sent to Canada? I may be jaded from my particular experience, but we have tried to buy two high end guitars from two separate Canadian dealers and both times we were sold crap. I think that when you buy high end in Canada you are just buying U.S. seconds. Go ahead Martin prove me wrong. Up yours Gibson , treat Canadian consumers with the same respect as Americans. This second rate Canadian warranty is horse ----! . Shove your Bozeman crap right up your Kalamazoo .
Regards Kenute


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

Kenute said:


> I gotta think the Sane way BSTheTech and I'm gonna find out. The dealer has agreed to ship a new outta the box HD-28 . Is it a new 2016? Is it something someone from the states has sent back , refurbished by Martin and then sent to Canada? I may be jaded from my particular experience, but we have tried to buy two high end guitars from two separate Canadian dealers and both times we were sold crap. I think that when you buy high end in Canada you are just buying U.S. seconds. Go ahead Martin prove me wrong. Up yours Gibson , treat Canadian consumers with the same respect as Americans. This second rate Canadian warranty is horse ----! . Shove your Bozeman crap right up your Kalamazoo .
> Regards Kenute


I find it hard to believe we're buying U.S. seconds here in Canada, but I do think some stores put seconds and refurbished models on the shelf as No. 1 new stock. I'm almost certain my local Gibson dealer does this, the difference between his stock and what I find in other stores is big.

As for the second rate Canadian warranty you're blaming the wrong company. From what I understand Gibson sells their lifetime warranty guitars to Yorkville distributing on a sort of as is/where is basis. Yorkville then turns around and offers those same Gibson guitars with a 1 year warranty at a price higher than what they go for with a full warranty in the states. So if it's up yours to anyone it should be to Yorkville and I doubt they'll be showing us any respect anytime soon according to the price hikes I see.


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## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

Howdy Morkolo ! How incredibly convenient for Gibson. Sell the guitars to the Canadian distributor who in fact are the original purchaser and so have the warranty . When they the distributor resell the guitars the original warranty is void absolving Gibson of any responsibility Why yorkville and Gibson have this arrangement is not known. But it creates an opportunity for a conflict. As far as yorkville is concerned I agree . I have tried several times to call them and no one ever returned my call. So ok, up yours too Yorkville. 
Regards kenute


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Having a Canadian distributor for USA goods was the old way of doing business for many products. Many of those arrangements have gone the way of the Dodo bird. I may be wrong but it seems to me that is one of the reasons for poor service and extra high prices for Gibson gear in Canada. In the USA, Gibson sells directly to the retail stores. In Canada, they still have the middle man (Yorkville), who also want and need to make a profit. If I was Gibson, I would change this in a hurry but very often with large companies, the wheels of change turn very slowly and to their detriment.


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

Canada is a small market. Nobody cares. Canadians have proven time and again that we'll pay more be it cars, fuel, appliances, food, or anything. Remember when the dollar was at par and we still got gouged? I remember overhearing a furniture salesman talking to a new salesman here in Victoria. One asked the other why the prices were so high above cost. Older salesman replies "Because they'll pay it". Get a mail box in the US and buy direct.


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## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

BSTheTech said:


> Canada is a small market. Nobody cares. Canadians have proven time and again that we'll pay more be it cars, fuel, appliances, food, or anything. Remember when the dollar was at par and we still got gouged? I remember overhearing a furniture salesman talking to a new salesman here in Victoria. One asked the other why the prices were so high above cost. Older salesman replies "Because they'll pay it". Get a mail box in the US and buy direct.


 I'll bet you get better quality if you buy in direct.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Kenute said:


> I'll bet you get better quality if you buy in direct.


I bought 2 Martins from "My Favorite Guitars", in Florida and I have nothing to complain about. Both guitars were stellar. I thousands from what it would have cost me to buy in Canada, with the conversion, taxes and brokerage all in.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I have 3 Martin guitars all bought from different stores in the GTA. All three are really good guitars. Played lots of Martins in local stores over the years and never noticed one to be bad although some I liked better than others.

Played a great D35 in a store last Saturday. Also played a Gibson 45 that was nicer than I remember them being.


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## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

Wardo said:


> I have 3 Martin guitars all bought from different stores in the GTA. All three are really good guitars. Played lots of Martins in local stores over the years and never noticed one to be bad although some I liked better than others.
> 
> Played a great D35 in a store last Saturday. Also played a Gibson 45 that was nicer than I remember them being.


Hello Wardo I understand what you are saying. Of course their are good guitars in Canadian stores . I just think Canada gets more than its fair share of the duds. I just bought a Martin Dread and it has to go back . It seems the top was unintentionally torrified and I was understandably horrified when I Opened the case. I admit my recent experience has probably skewed my perspective on this issue. Hopefully when I get the new guitar, I will be able to enjoy , relax and play. Then too I hope to regain a little trust in the industry.
Ciao fer now kenute


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Kenute said:


> Hello Wardo I understand what you are saying. Of course their are good guitars in Canadian stores . I just think Canada gets more than its fair share of the duds. I just bought a Martin Dread and it has to go back . It seems the top was unintentionally torrified and I was understandably horrified when I Opened the case. I admit my recent experience has probably skewed my perspective on this issue. Hopefully when I get the new guitar, I will be able to enjoy , relax and play. Then too I hope to regain a little trust in the industry.
> Ciao fer now kenute


I thought a torrified top would be an option and an upcharge. Did you try it and not like it? Personally, the torrified-top guitars I've tried have been very nice (Martin, Huss&Dalton, Santa Cruz). I haven't really heard any downsides to it.


Also, in my experience (selling, buying, playing), Gibson sells factory seconds in Canada. They are finish flaw issues like a cloudy neck inlay or something, never structural or playability issues. This sounds too severe to be one of those. And they are clearly marked 'SECOND' or '2' on the back of the headstock so no one should be paying full price for them - usually closer to a 10 - 15% discount.


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## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

High/Deaf said:


> I thought a torrified top would be an option and an upcharge. Did you try it and not like it? Personally, the torrified-top guitars I've tried have been very nice (Martin, Huss&Dalton, Santa Cruz). I haven't really heard any downsides to it.
> 
> 
> Also, in my experience (selling, buying, playing), Gibson sells factory seconds in Canada. They are finish flaw issues like a cloudy neck inlay or something, never structural or playability issues. This sounds too severe to be one of those. And they are clearly marked 'SECOND' or '2' on the back of the headstock so no one should be paying full price for them - usually closer to a 10 - 15% discount.


Hello High/Deaf thanks for the info on Gibson factory seconds. Back in December I received a Gibson with a number of flaws /damage. I did not get a discount. There wasn't a 2 stamped on the headstock. I did pay a ten percent restocking fee to return it . According to the retailer it was sent back to YV. For repair. Last week I received a Martin from a different retailer. The top was damaged . The retailer has since offered a new one at no cost to me. About the top being unintentionally torrified ? Well that was just my lame attempt at sarcasm . Please excuse me for my bad humor and bad judgement.
Best Regards kenute


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Kenute said:


> Hello High/Deaf thanks for the info on Gibson factory seconds. Back in December I received a Gibson with a number of flaws /damage. I did not get a discount. There wasn't a 2 stamped on the headstock. I did pay a ten percent restocking fee to return it . According to the retailer it was sent back to YV. For repair. Last week I received a Martin from a different retailer. The top was damaged . The retailer has since offered a new one at no cost to me. About the top being unintentionally torrified ? Well that was just my lame attempt at sarcasm . Please excuse me for my bad humor and bad judgement.
> Best Regards kenute


LOL Getcha now, pal. No harm, no foul. It was me who lost the plot - really, I did read the whole string, Really.

If it _were_ a torrified top, you should give it a try. The ones I've played are nice.


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## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

Well I unpacked the replacement HD-28 today. It plays and sounds amazing. Only very slight buzzing. The guitar is straight and true and appears to be well built. This guitar has a small amount of relief in the neck,and I like that. The grain in the top is quite beautiful . The back and sides are stunning aswell. The finish on the neck however is flawed. There is a drip of what looks like excess lacquer right in the middle of the back of the neck; at the fifth fret location. It's in the place where your thumb would be when barring an E shape A chord. That's how I found it . It feels quite rough. I find it hard to believe that this was not found at the factory. I think it can be and should have been buffed out. Maybe I'll have to send this one back too. I am however quite impressed with the instrument overall. Just some tweaking I hope.

kenute


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Kenute said:


> Well I unpacked the replacement HD-28 today. It plays and sounds amazing. Only very slight buzzing. The guitar is straight and true and appears to be well built. This guitar has a small amount of relief in the neck,and I like that. The grain in the top is quite beautiful . The back and sides are stunning aswell. The finish on the neck however is flawed. There is a drip of what looks like excess lacquer right in the middle of the back of the neck; at the fifth fret location. It's in the place where your thumb would be when barring an E shape A chord. That's how I found it . It feels quite rough. I find it hard to believe that this was not found at the factory. I think it can be and should have been buffed out. Maybe I'll have to send this one back too. I am however quite impressed with the instrument overall. Just some tweaking I hope.
> 
> kenute


You should get perfection. However if it truly is an amazing sounding guitar I'd be apprehensive about returning it for a different guitar. You could take it to an authorized Martin repair shop and see if there is anything they can do to make it right under warranty. Myself, I don't worry about small imperfections in finish if they aren't noticeable or on the front where they can be plainly seen. However if I can feel it while I'm playing I'd want to get something done about it.


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## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> You should get perfection. However if it truly is an amazing sounding guitar I'd be apprehensive about returning it for a different guitar. You could take it to an authorized Martin repair shop and see if there is anything they can do to make it right under warranty. Myself, I don't worry about small imperfections in finish if they aren't noticeable or on the front where they can be plainly seen. However if I can feel it while I'm playing I'd want to get something done about it.


Turns out it's more than just cosmetic . After looking at the guitar again I can see this one has a corrugated top too. The top appears to be sunken aswell. When I flipped it over a small part on the back was sunken aswell . This has since gotten a little better after using a humidifier in the case (48 hrs) The dealer says return it for a new one. it's going back . Bring on number three.

Kenute


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

This is clearly a case of the Universe telling you to be a drummer.


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## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

Well the dealer shipped the third HD 28. I hope this is the one. I will know in a few days.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Kenute said:


> Well the dealer shipped the third HD 28. I hope this is the one. I will know in a few days.


Heres hoping.
If this one doesn't work out just order a D-28 authentic and be done with it.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Kenute said:


> Turns out it's more than just cosmetic . After looking at the guitar again I can see this one has a corrugated top too. The top appears to be sunken aswell. When I flipped it over a small part on the back was sunken aswell . This has since gotten a little better after using a humidifier in the case (48 hrs) The dealer says return it for a new one. it's going back . Bring on number three.
> 
> Kenute


Man, that's unbelievable!


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## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> Heres hoping.
> If this one doesn't work out just order a D-28 authentic and be done with it.


I'm thinking if this doesn't work out then the whole idea of buying online is out the window. I mean how many guitars do I have to send back before they send the good one? Buying a good quality guitar in Canada is certainly turning out to be a chore. I just can't help thinking that American customers would stand for this. That said ,I'm hopeful this will have a happy ending .


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## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

Steadfastly said:


> Man, that's unbelievable!


Yep, 4 guitars, 3 months later , 2 dealers , an unfair restocking fee, and an eye opening misadventure into the world of guitar retailing. Kinda leaves a bad taste. I will say this though, the Martin experience was by far better than the Gibson.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Kenute said:


> I'm thinking if this doesn't work out then the whole idea of buying online is out the window. I mean how many guitars do I have to send back before they send the good one? Buying a good quality guitar in Canada is certainly turning out to be a chore. I just can't help thinking that American customers would stand for this. That said ,I'm hopeful this will have a happy ending .


You would cry if you knew what you could have got it for from Jon at MFG in Florida. I ordered 2 Martins from him last year and saved thousands over what it would have cost me to buy in Canada. And quality was not a problem. I am completely satisfied with his service.
There are only a couple or so that discount Martin guitars 40% from list. and he's one of them.


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## jimmy c g (Jan 1, 2008)

hope yer new git works out. I wonder who will be next to buy the returned guitars ? and how often are "seconds" just recycled as is to another customer ? I think many times unfortunatley and some (most ? ) places do not tell you so we cant assume ANYTHING !! (I assume)


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> You would cry if you knew what you could have got it for from Jon at MFG in Florida. I ordered 2 Martins from him last year and saved thousands over what it would have cost me to buy in Canada. And quality was not a problem. I am completely satisfied with his service.
> There are only a couple or so that discount Martin guitars 40% from list. and he's one of them.


Not to hijack the thread but I checked a few of the popular Martins and MF had better prices and they will always price match an/or beat the price of competitors.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> Not to hijack the thread but I checked a few of the popular Martins and MF had better prices and they will always price match an/or beat the price of competitors.


Yes MF will probably match or beat an advertised price but thats the thing. No authorized Martin dealer is allowed to list lower than minimum advertised pricing (MAP) which is 20%. To get the 40% quote you have to contact Jon at MFG via email. He'll give you his lowest price which would be 40%. Aint no way MF will beat that and I'll bet won't match it.
I tried to buy in Canada and no one would even come anywhere near it. So much so that the least expensive price in Canada was a few thousand more than what I got it delivered to my door from MFG. Even most US retailers won't compete with the 20% lower than MAP.
Trust me I did my homework and there was no other retailer that would touch that. Other than a couple other US retailers that will sell Martins at 40% off list. I chose MFG just because thats who I made the initial inquiry with but the other retailers have just as good a reputation.
Theres another guy on this forum who bought a D-42 from MFG. Actually his experience is what inspired me to go this route. My D-28 Authentic would have cost me almost 11K all in to buy in Canada. It cost me $6,800 CA all in buying from MFG. I never could have afforded to buy it in Canada and if that were my only option I just wouldn't have bought it.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> Yes MF will probably match or beat an advertised price but thats the thing. No authorized Martin dealer is allowed to list lower than minimum advertised pricing (MAP) which is 20%. To get the 40% quote you have to contact Jon at MFG via email. He'll give you his lowest price which would be 40%. Aint no way MF will beat that and I'll bet won't match it.
> I tried to buy in Canada and no one would even come anywhere near it. So much so that the least expensive price in Canada was a few thousand more than what I got it delivered to my door from MFG. Even most US retailers won't compete with the 20% lower than MAP.
> Trust me I did my homework and there was no other retailer that would touch that. Other than a couple other US retailers that will sell Martins at 40% off list. I chose MFG just because thats who I made the initial inquiry with but the other retailers have just as good a reputation.
> Theres another guy on this forum who bought a D-42 from MFG. Actually his experience is what inspired me to go this route. My D-28 Authentic would have cost me almost 11K all in to buy in Canada. It cost me $6,800 CA all in buying from MFG. I never could have afforded to buy it in Canada and if that were my only option I just wouldn't have bought it.


Good to know. I didn't realize they discounted more than what was on the website. Thanks for updating the information. That may be useful to a lot of us here at GC.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> Good to know. I didn't realize they discounted more than what was on the website. Thanks for updating the information. That may be useful to a lot of us here at GC.


Yes you'll get an additional 20% off MAP (which is discounted 20% from list). The price listed is the price on used Martins and Custom Martins. On all regular production Martins email for actual lowest price, which will be the additional 20%
In Canada I have found that our retailers can't even match the MAP price. Its unfortunate as I would prefer to buy in Canada.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

12 fret has new D-28 for 8,500 ca, 6,700 usd


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Rick31797 said:


> 12 fret has new D-28 for 8,500 ca, 6,700 usd


That's ridiculous. They are only $3500.00 at L & M. Perhaps the one at 12th Fret is a custom or something.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> That's ridiculous. They are only $3500.00 at L & M. Perhaps the one at 12th Fret is a custom or something.


He's talking about the D-28 Authentic. $8,500 is a pretty good price. Not sure if thats an old ad or not cause I know they are more than that. But even still you add the tax and you're up to $9,600. I paid $6,800 CA all in. Shipping, taxes, brokerage fees.


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## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

An HD-28 lists for 3899.00 us $ or 5209.65 cad on Martin 's website. L and M lists fo 4129. cad . They price matched another retailer and sold to me for 3599.00 cad 1610 (31 prescient )less than Martin suggests. Which works out to 2693 us. MFG lists new HD-28 for 3059 us. Looks pretty good on LM eh?


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## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

On another note ......I got the new HD-28 Thursday and opened it up last evening. No corrugated top, no blemishes,no dings, no buzzing. The action is very nice. The sound is great. I think I got it! Finally!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Kenute said:


> On another note ......I got the new HD-28 Thursday and opened it up last evening. No corrugated top, no blemishes,no dings, no buzzing. The action is very nice. The sound is great. I think I got it! Finally!


I think you'll be quite happy. I did own an HD-28 years ago and it was an excellent guitar.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Kenute said:


> On another note ......I got the new HD-28 Thursday and opened it up last evening. No corrugated top, no blemishes,no dings, no buzzing. The action is very nice. The sound is great. I think I got it! Finally!


Hooray!HNG^%$


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## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

Steadfastly said:


> Hooray!HNG^%$


Yeah I feel pretty good about the whole episode now.
I know it's been said here many times before but I feel it needs repeating; buying a guitar requires work. Play them inspect them and learn as much as you can about them. Finding a good dealer as I did in the end,pays off too. And I might add ,the good folks on forums such as these are a great resource. 
Thanks, Kenute


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Kenute said:


> Yeah I feel pretty good about the whole episode now.
> *I know it's been said here many times before but I feel it needs repeating; buying a guitar requires work.* Play them inspect them and learn as much as you can about them. Finding a good dealer as I did in the end,pays off too. And I might add ,the good folks on forums such as these are a great resource.
> Thanks, Kenute


LOL Amen to that.

It took me a year to be absolutely positive the Lowden I bought was the best guitar I played for under 10k. And I bet I played 50 guitars between 6k and 10k, plus a dozen over 10k, just to make sure it really was what I thought it was. I would think, after a couple of weeks of not playing it, "did it really sound that good?" And I'd go back and play it to find that, yes, it was. It was head an shoulders above anything else in that price range.

I sure am a believer in old wood now. I have never heard mahogany that sounds like this, so full and rich like RW, but still with the attack of mahogany. Although a couple Belize sinker mahogany (only 70 years old though) guitars were close. Close but no cigar, as they say.


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## Davestp1 (Apr 25, 2006)

_An HD-28 lists for 3899.00 us $ or 5209.65 cad on Martin 's website. L and M lists fo 4129. cad . They price matched another retailer and sold to me for 3599.00 cad 1610 (31 prescient )less than Martin suggests. Which works out to 2693 us. MFG lists new HD-28 for 3059 us. Looks pretty good on LM eh?
_
I think you have to take another 20 percent off of the MFG website price. That price is the minimum advertised price, the price he will sell it for if you contact him direct is a further 20 percent off of the website price (40 percent off the official list price on the Martin website).
When I contacted him in April or May last year, he wanted 2400 US for an HD35....I bought my D41 from him and have been very happy....


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

nkjanssen said:


> On the other hand, I'd have no problem buying certain brands sight unseen. I bought a Santa Cruz Pre-War OM online several years ago and it's an amazing guitar and every bit as good as every other Santa Cruz Pre-War OM I've played. Same thing with the Collings acoustics I've tried. Never played one that wasn't spectacular.


I agree. All the high-end acoustics I played - Lowden, H&D, Collings, SCGC, Froggy Bottom, Ryan, etc. - all had great consistency in tone and playability. Just like one guy or a small group of guys build each and every one of them. LOL


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

nkjanssen said:


> On the other hand, I'd have no problem buying certain brands sight unseen.


I am of the same mind. With the return policies companies are offering these days and with modern manufacturing methods, little is left to chance anymore. I take very little stock in inconsistencies reported by buyers. There are too many variables, like strings, different rooms, different humidity levels, setups and the player themselves from day to day, that are never mentioned, to take those reports seriously.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Steadfastly said:


> I am of the same mind. With the return policies companies are offering these days and with modern manufacturing methods, little is left to chance anymore. I take very little stock in inconsistencies reported by buyers. There are too many variables, like strings, different rooms, different humidity levels, setups and the player themselves from day to day, that are never mentioned, to take those reports seriously.


So do you believe @Kenute was just imaging things with the guitars that he returned? It's all in our heads? @nkjanssen was referring to high-end hand made guitars when he referred to consistency, not assembly line guitars.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

nkjanssen said:


> Depends what you're buying. *Although on the whole I'm firmly of the belief that Gibson is a shit company*, I do like J-45 style guitars quite a lot. It took me 5 years of trying literally every new and used J-45 I came across to find one that I considered top notch. I've had similar experiences with their electrics. I would never buy a Gibson online. I have less experience with Martins, but would hesitate to do that too.
> 
> On the other hand, I'd have no problem buying certain brands sight unseen. I bought a Santa Cruz Pre-War OM online several years ago and it's an amazing guitar and every bit as good as every other Santa Cruz Pre-War OM I've played. Same thing with the Collings acoustics I've tried. Never played one that wasn't spectacular.


No I think Gibson has really turned it around. Here is a Gibson Engineer talking about recent changes.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

High/Deaf said:


> So do you believe @Kenute was just imaging things with the guitars that he returned? It's all in our heads? @nkjanssen was referring to high-end hand made guitars when he referred to consistency, not assembly line guitars.


I knew there was likely going to be someone that didn't look at the details in my post. I said _"little is left to chance"_. That means there is some chance you will get a bad one. And I commiserated with Kenute throughout this thread so I was well aware of what he went through. 

However, many, including myself, have all done the same thing. It just behooves us all to read posts thoroughly before replying.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

While I think batting .250 to .333 is pretty good in pro baseball, I think it's pretty bad in buying high-end acoustics on-line. Even .750 isn't that good, actually.

Anything below .5o0 isn't chance, it's likelyhood. In buying guitars or reading comprehension. LOL


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

High/Deaf said:


> While I think batting .250 to .333 is pretty good in pro baseball, I think it's pretty bad in buying high-end acoustics on-line. Even .750 isn't that good, actually.
> 
> Anything below .5o0 isn't chance, it's likelyhood. In buying guitars or reading comprehension. LOL


The only 2 guitars I've ever ordered on line were a Martin D-18GE and a Martin Authentic D-28 1941. Both guitars were stellar. Everything was perfect about them. I still have the D-28 Authentic and its my life time D-28. The only reason I sold the D-18GE is that the neck specs just weren't doing it for me. 1 3/4" nut width and 2 1/4" string spacing. I knew going in that those specs might not work in the long run but gave it a shot. Other than that I loved the guitar. Only bested by my D-18 Authentic 39.
I will definitely say that it has more to do with who you deal with in terms of online dealers than it does with inconsistencies in the brand.
Because the OP dealt with quality issues that were easy and quickly identifiable I only have to assume that a dealer could have identified it as well. 
I've been a lifelong Martin player and every time I'm in a store I check out the Martin inventory as well as others. One thing I notice is between different stores there is a quality difference. For example Most of the Martin stock in Long and Mcquade range from mediocre to very good. Where as at Folkway just all Martins (as well as the other stock) are stellar. I'm talking about fit and finish, tone quality and setup. So #1 a store like Folkway looks like they care more. I don't know if they pre screen an order and send it back if it doesn't meet a standard but it seems like it based on their offerings. Although I knock Long and Mcquade a little bit I think they are up there with the best of them with servicing the customer in the event that there are quality issues
I've bought more than one Martin guitar from Folkway, Long and Mcquade and MFG in Florida. I have to say that the only Martin that I had a quality issue with was Long and Mcquade. The finish started to completely peel and I had to send it back to the Martin factory for a complete refinish. It was a bummer as I only had the guitar 6 months and I was without it for over 6 months while it was refinished. However L&M came to the rescue and loaned me a used HD35 off the floor to keep for as long as it took to get my guitar back.
So I think the most important aspect of buying guitars is who you deal with. There are many online dealers who have excellent reputations. So the #1 rule for online purchasing is get to know them and deal only with them #2 rule if you're going to buy online is purchase only guitars known for their consistency. Personally I think Martin has come along way and their gutiars are more consistent now then they've ever been. However the GE\Marquis and the Authentic line get a special nod as being very consistent in the tone department. Small builders like Collings, Bourgeois and Santa Cruz are a safe bet as well.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

nkjanssen said:


> I've said this before and it still holds true... I honestly don't believe that you actually play guitar.


So, do you think that I actually care what you believe? If the answer is yes, you are sadly mistaken. Regards, Steadfastly


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

If Steadly plays guitar in an anechoic chamber but no one can hear him, not even himself, is he still playing the guitar?

It's a very scientific test,,. he'd be proud. 
PS- the variables are all looked after including the humidity,,.. its the best


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## Kenute (Dec 31, 2016)

It's been awhile since I have posted. Here is a little update. The HD-28 from L&M is great instrument. I can't walk by it without picking it up. I really love this guitar. It took awhile to get it right but L&M stood by me until the issues were resolved. Good on them. 

Thanks to all here . I have learned a lot and from you all and will continue to stop by and read posts and maybe contribute if I can.

Kenute


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Kenute said:


> It's been awhile since I have posted. Here is a little update. The HD-28 from L&M is great instrument. I can't walk by it without picking it up. I really love this guitar. It took awhile to get it right but L&M stood by me until the issues were resolved. Good on them.
> 
> Thanks to all here . I have learned a lot and from you all and *will continue to stop by and read posts and maybe contribute* if I can.
> 
> Kenute


You already have and please continue to do so.


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