# Goodbye Tubes, Hello Transistors??



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...will my traynor ycv series tube combo soon become merely a backup for my tech 21 trademark 60 solid state combo amp?

stay tuned.

i picked up the tech 21 recently online (got quite a deal) and i've been playing it at rehearsals. the tone, versatility and tweakability are very, very inspiring. i'll be trying it at a gig soon. it is extremely light weight. plus, i have a line on a jenson neodymium speaker, although the amp sounds so amazing as is, i'm fearful of tampering with it.

-dh


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## Kapo_Polenton (Jun 20, 2007)

I tried one of these once in the store and I was surprised at how the tone was very un-transistor like but it still wasn't tubes to me. I also tried a bunch of those newer traynors and found them to be voiced more on the dark and scooped side... I would give the older tube amps a try as maybe that Traynor's voicing was not to your liking. I like the way those tech 21's record though. You can also find them fairly cheap.

(p.s- I found that allot of the newer tube amps have this voicing because of the hard rock nu metal thang)


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Kapo_Polenton said:


> I tried one of these once in the store and I was surprised at how the tone was very un-transistor like but it still wasn't tubes to me. I also tried a bunch of those newer traynors and found them to be voiced more on the dark and scooped side... I would give the older tube amps a try as maybe that Traynor's voicing was not to your liking. I like the way those tech 21's record though.


...actually, i love my traynor ycv40wr. its not going anywhere. 

and, yeah, the trademark 60 is an absolutely amazing amp for recording!

-dh


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I think more of us need to open our minds to the reality that tubes are NOT the only way to get great sound.


I'll bet the Tech 21 would "fool" many of the most ardent tube devotees.


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

Milkman said:


> tubes are NOT the only way to get great sound.


LIES!.. haha, kidding.

I haven't had a solid state or modelling amp make my jaw drop... yet.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I still have and use my Rockman gear. Love it.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

violation said:


> LIES!.. haha, kidding.
> 
> I haven't had a solid state or modelling amp make my jaw drop... yet.


Amps don't make my jaw drop.

Players do.


(and writers).


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Amps don't make my jaw drop.
> 
> Players do.
> 
> ...


True. Though there are a few jaw dropper amps. Komet 60 comes to mind. The one amp that truelly blew me away when I heard it. Too bad she's too much amp for my purposes.


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Amps don't make my jaw drop.
> 
> Players do.
> 
> ...


Both do for me. Amps more often then players, locally atleast lol. 

I had the chance to play a Diezel (don't remember the model) and it sounded AMAZING. Too bad the dude said it cost him 5 grand... last I heard he sold it to fix his car, hah.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

I am a huge Tech21 fan! I use their Acoustic DI and Bass Driver as front ends into a PA system. Built like tanks.

A Trademark60 is on my short list of gear to buy.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Okay. To further open a can of worms. On the The Gear Page, there has been this thread on the Fractal Audio Axe-FX. A new leap in SS amplification. It is now almost 700 posts long with 30k views. It is generating quite the buzz. One of the biggest 'converts' , for lack of a better term is the site administrator, Scott Peterson.

http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=267882


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> Okay. To further open a can of worms. On the The Gear Page, there has been this thread on the Fractal Audio Axe-FX. A new leap in SS amplification. It is now almost 700 posts long with 30k views. It is generating quite the buzz. One of the biggest 'converts' , for lack of a better term is the site administrator, Scott Peterson.
> 
> http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=267882


 I've had the Axefx for a couple months now. It is jaw dropping, even though I am not a jaw dropping guitar player. I honestly purchased it for home recording purposes because I love my current live rig and have no intention replacing it...........well, had no intention. The tones I am getting out of this machine are unbelievable! That plus the Eventide quality effects.........the reverbs and delays are worth the price alone. I don't have the experience with amps like Scott Petterson, but I know what sounds good. 

For the next couple months I will be using it for rehearsals to see how it cuts through the mix of the band. I'll keep you posted!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

i've heard great tones from SS as well as tube amps, and i've heard AVT's do some nice things too.

its not usually the amp that isnt that good, its the guy setting it up. if you can make a 4K all tube fire-breather halfstack sound good, kudos to you. if you can get a 15W 108 practise amp to sound good, kudos to you.

so long as buddy keeps both amps, he's pretty much set.


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## Kapo_Polenton (Jun 20, 2007)

hmmmmm my first reaction was, "not bad" for a JCM800.. a tad fizzy but then i realised that this was recorded direct ! (talking about the site samples) for direct recording it is sounds pretty solid and not thin. I imagine that through a power amp it would be pretty bitchin. I have to say I was ready to dismiss this but I have to give it credit. Its solid. Would like to hear someone mic' it though a cab..


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...the sounds i'm getting from my trademark 60 are not jaw-dropping, life changing or mind-blowing. they do, however, cause me to want to avoid stepping on my pedals...

to put it another way: the traynor tube (ycv40wr) combo gives me a wonderful clean sound upon which to build the rest of my sounds. however, the trademark 60 adds a little bit of grit, warmth and an indefinable "mojo" that i find very inspiring.

i would probably get the same results if i was able to crank the tube combo, but i never, ever get to play that loud.

-dh


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

you dont get to crank the traynor? a pity, they sound pretty good running about half, in my experience.

im now in a place where i dont know how loud i can go, but my halfstack is nowhere near how loud i used to play it at home lol. the sooner we get a band together and have shows, the better!

what about an attenuator for the YCV?


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Budda said:


> what about an attenuator for the YCV?



...i have not had favourable experiences with either attenuators or master volume controls. both sound, to my ears, like placing a pillow in front the speaker. they seem to kill all the air, dimension and dynamics.

back in the day (dontcha hate that expression!) i used to be able to crank an ampeg half stack. now THAT was inspiring!

-dh


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## 55 Jr (May 3, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...i have not had favourable experiences with either attenuators or master volume controls. both sound, to my ears, like placing a pillow in front the speaker. they seem to kill all the air, dimension and dynamics.
> 
> back in the day (dontcha hate that expression!) i used to be able to crank an ampeg half stack. now THAT was inspiring!
> 
> -dh


Wow. That would be a problem. I've played the tech 21. It's fine for what it is but I would take:

A Roccaforte HG100/Master volume/at any volume level over a T21.

A Marshall 1974X cranked into a DrZ Airbrake at any volume over a T21.

A Superchamp/Master volume/at any volume level over a T21.

A 65amps SoHo/Master volume/at any volume level or master volume bypassed/cranked into a DrZ Airbrake at any volume over a T21.



Best regards,

Brian


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## I_cant_play (Jun 26, 2006)

david,

sounds like a lower wattage amp may be for you. Like that trinity 18 or whatever. Have you considered that kinda thing?


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

There is also power scaling that can be added to any amp and aparently does not affect your tone? I am considering putting this on my Carvin Legacy.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

you find master volume amps etc are like putting a pillow in front of the speakers? interesting.


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## Kapo_Polenton (Jun 20, 2007)

attenuation at lower volumes does def muffle it a bit.. I find i lose that "treble" sparkle - but i did cut my bright cap. At louder volumes though, it sounds the way it should. A trade off for everything i guess.


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## Brian G (Aug 17, 2006)

Hey David - met you in Eric's "office" up at The Arts a while ago, you had a great looking Tele Eric had worked on - I concur with your comments about the Tech 21 working well in a (somewhat?) lower volume situation. I have the same situation (home use only, in my case) and a good tube combo (Rivera 2 x 12) and as much as I love it, I can't get it up to the point where it really wants to live.

Between the master volume and the level controls on the loop, I can get some pretty nice sounds, but I know it's nothing like when the amp is opened up. I think this is the situation that really opens the door to other solutions. Seems to me there are some tube amp-alternatives out there that may be outgunned tone-wise in an absolute sense at show volumes, but compare really well once volume constraints are imposed, or going direct.

Congrats on the good deal on the Tech 21.

Brian


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

55 Jr said:


> Wow. That would be a problem. I've played the tech 21. It's fine for what it is but I would take:
> A Roccaforte HG100/Master volume/at any volume level over a T21.
> A Marshall 1974X cranked into a DrZ Airbrake at any volume over a T21.
> A Superchamp/Master volume/at any volume level over a T21.
> ...



...hmmmm....the tech 21 cost me a little over two bills, has an fx loop and is very light weight.

how much do these amps cost/weigh, and do they have an fx loop?

-dh


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

I_cant_play said:


> david,
> sounds like a lower wattage amp may be for you. Like that trinity 18 or whatever. Have you considered that kinda thing?



...absolutely. price is a _very_ important consideration, as is an fx loop.

but, yeah, i would love to own a low wattage tube amp one fine day.

i do have a 60s gibson skylark, and an ancient supro that i found in the garbage. interesting amps but certainly not "players", or versatile, by any stretch of the imagination.

-dh


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## 55 Jr (May 3, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...hmmmm....the tech 21 cost me a little over two bills, has an fx loop and is very light weight.
> 
> how much do these amps cost/weigh, and do they have an fx loop?
> 
> -dh


I got pedals that cost two bills.

I think my camping amp (Boss Micro Cube) was less than 200$.

What's an effects loop?

Seriously do what ever works for you and be happy. That's really all that matters.

I'm pretty picky about the guitars I play/my amps/my effects. It's a curse really. I'm not as bad a E.J. I have trouble telling if it's an alkaline battery or an old nine lives in a fuzz pedal. I can't tell you which cord sounds best.
My ears aint that good.

But believe me I can sho tell the difference between a T21 and a 65amps SoHo. Not trying to be a snob but there are huge differences between these two amps.

According to your post and ears the T21 is clearly superior!
The SoHo has a master volume......so it must sound like a.....how did you put it.......... "pillow is front of the speaker".

I can defeat the master on the SoHo, but it's way too loud for most applications I deal with. So I use a Dr Z Airbrake (~200$). Again according to your ears the T21 is the superior amp and an attenuated SoHo "sounds like a pillow is in front of the speaker".



If I'm not mistaken there is a master volume on the T21?

http://www.tech21nyc.com/tm60.html


What's this effects loop thing you speak of?


Cheers!

Enjoy your amp!

Best regards,

Brian

:food-smiley-015:

PS

The SoHo is ~45 lbs.

The SoHo costs a lot of money.


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

Dave, I'm surprised, especially knowing your history, that a/ you like the Traynor as much as you say you do,, and b/ you like the Tech 21 so much. Having said that, I really like my Roland Cube 60, but it will never, ever replace my tube amps. In the tone dept,,,no contest. The verstility of the Roland is hard to beat with a stick, not to mention the the onboard FX, but when, in a live situation, that tube fullness just takes me where I wanna be.










CT.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

CocoTone said:


> Dave, I'm surprised, especially knowing your history, that a/ you like the Traynor as much as you say you do,, and b/ you like the Tech 21 so much. Having said that, I really like my Roland Cube 60, but it will never, ever replace my tube amps. In the tone dept,,,no contest. The verstility of the Roland is hard to beat with a stick, not to mention the the onboard FX, but when, in a live situation, that tube fullness just takes me where I wanna be. CT.




...yeah, that WILL be the deciding factor, CT. 

and i won't be at all suprised if the traynor tube combo wins out, based on the criteria you suggest (fullness).

in rehearsal and recording situations, however, the tech 21 has already proven its worth.

what can i say? i'm a have my cake and eat it, too, kinda guy!

re my history, however, these days my influences are more likely to be mark knopfler and david gilmour rather than hendrix or satriani.

-dh


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

*What's an effects loop?*

...a circuit between the preamp and power amp section that is ideal for time-based effects like delay, reverb, chorus etc.

*According to your post and ears the T21 is clearly superior!
The SoHo has a master volume......so it must sound like a.....how did you put it.......... "pillow is front of the speaker".
I can defeat the master on the SoHo, but it's way too loud for most applications I deal with. So I use a Dr Z Airbrake (~200$). Again according to your ears the T21 is the superior amp and an attenuated SoHo "sounds like a pillow is in front of the speaker".*

...if you say so, brian. i have never played through a soho. the master volume amps i have played through include a fender blues jr, perhaps NOT the best example?

*If I'm not mistaken there is a master volume on the T21?*

...as you may or may not be aware, a master volume on a tube amp and a master volume on a solid state amp are two entirely different designs/techonologies.

*PS The SoHo costs a lot of money.*

...precisely!



-dh


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

you want versatility?

get an ENGL SE. yeah it'll cost you money, but you get the cream of the crop. its that or a mesa boogie road king. and those will eat your tech 21


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## 55 Jr (May 3, 2006)

david henman said:


> *What's an effects loop?*
> 
> ...a circuit between the preamp and power amp section that is ideal for time-based effects like delay, reverb, chorus etc.
> 
> ...



As we are both aware.............solid state amps are very different than a tube amp.

And after owning more tube amps than I would care to admit I can also say that not all tube amps are created equal.

I guess............me being a red neck hick from out west and all..........I am missing the point of your statement.

Are you trying to say that a master volume tube amp will have a "pillowy soft" muffled tone while a master volume solid state will sound like.............what?

Better?

Roses?

I'm confused.

But really all that matters is that you are very happy with the T21. It's a good sounding/cost effective unit that tries very hard to sound.........dare I say it..........."tube like".

They really are a great sounding amp.

That being said I prefer this:

http://storage.rmsnetworks.com/video/6AMPS/65amps_soho_final.wmv

Best regards,

Brian


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

Robert1950 said:


> Okay. To further open a can of worms. On the The Gear Page, there has been this thread on the Fractal Audio Axe-FX. A new leap in SS amplification. It is now almost 700 posts long with 30k views. It is generating quite the buzz. One of the biggest 'converts' , for lack of a better term is the site administrator, Scott Peterson.
> 
> http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=267882


Well, nice one, but how many thousands of dollars is it? If you already have a relatively fast computer, dibox and VST plugins (many of which are free) are probably just as good for a fraction of the cost.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Budda said:


> you want versatility?
> 
> get an ENGL SE. yeah it'll cost you money, but you get the cream of the crop. its that or a mesa boogie road king. and those will eat your tech 21



...not to mention what remains of my financial stability!



-dh


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## Brian G (Aug 17, 2006)

*Re: the Axe FX*

"Well, nice one, but how many thousands of dollars is it? If you already have a relatively fast computer, dibox and VST plugins (many of which are free) are probably just as good for a fraction of the cost."

The AxeFX is $1350 USD if you endure through the wait list, $1750 if you just push the "buy" button on their Yahoo merchant website (not sure if you can actually buy it this way, without waiting your turn. Given that you get the more-or-less equivalent of a number of great sounding amps, and a slew of high-quality effects, and unreal versatility, this sounds like a pretty good deal to me.

The AxeFX is fairly moderate cost, compared to many of the amps referred to in this post, and maybe it won't cause anyone to want to offload their SoHo or Engl, but turn those things down to most people's "home" levels or DI for recording, and then we'll see how things stack up.

I don't think David's point was to directly compare the Tech 21 to a high-end boutique amp under no-holds barred cirumstances. I took him to be saying that at home, under practical volume constraints, it provided a nifty experience for the cash.

Brian


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Brian G said:


> I don't think David's point was to directly compare the Tech 21 to a high-end boutique amp under no-holds barred cirumstances. I took him to be saying that at home, under practical volume constraints, it provided a nifty experience for the cash. Brian



...ayup!

and that only extends to the clean channel, with the gain knob at zero. set the "growl" knob at about 10:00 o'clock and i get a wonderful "on the verge" breakup, while still retaining lots of high end chime and sparkle.

this weekend, i'm going back to my traynor tube combo, before coming to a final decision on which amp to use at the next gig.

-dh


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

Brian G said:


> "Well, nice one, but how many thousands of dollars is it? If you already have a relatively fast computer, dibox and VST plugins (many of which are free) are probably just as good for a fraction of the cost."
> 
> The AxeFX is $1350 USD if you endure through the wait list, $1750 if you just push the "buy" button on their Yahoo merchant website (not sure if you can actually buy it this way, without waiting your turn. Given that you get the more-or-less equivalent of a number of great sounding amps, and a slew of high-quality effects, and unreal versatility, this sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
> 
> ...


Since it's far more affordable than I thought: how would it compare to a PC with an Asio card, a dibox, and VST plugins?


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## Brian G (Aug 17, 2006)

NB-SK said:


> Since it's far more affordable than I thought: how would it compare to a PC with an Asio card, a dibox, and VST plugins?


I can't comment on that, however the posts on the Axe FX Forum would lead me to believe that the Axe FX would come out on top - that would be a better place to post that question. If you[re interested, there's a ton of info on the forum, also a 53-page thread on the Gear Page. 

But again, I'm still waiting for mine, so until then . . .


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