# why did you get fired?



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

i have a feeling that many people end up losing their job because they appear to be, for whatever reason, unhappy.

this, i think, plants a seed in the mind of the employer to get rid of that employee at the first opportunity.

i think this is how i would feel as an employer.

it is certainly how i feel as a bandleader.


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## fudb (Dec 8, 2010)

An effective leader might instead try and find out why the employee or band member was unhappy, and think about the reason(s) carefully before just dumping an otherwise productive person..


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I understand David's perspective completely.

On the other hand, employees on a negative path HAVE been turned around by an effective manager.

I can testify to that personally.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> I understand David's perspective completely.
> On the other hand, employees on a negative path HAVE been turned around by an effective manager.
> I can testify to that personally.


...my dad, too, although he tended to try and rejuvenate "lost souls", so to speak. troublemakers and ne'er do wells that most employers would simply give up on.

i may have gone about this backwards.

what i'm really trying to say is that appearing to be happy with your job and your company is an excellent way to ensure that you won't be fired. not foolproof, certainly, but as an employer i think i would fight to keep a person like that.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I understand David's perspective completely.
> 
> On the other hand, employees on a negative path HAVE been turned around by an effective manager.
> 
> I can testify to that personally.


I've also seen the opposite...


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...how productive is an employee who is unhappy going to be?



fudb said:


> An effective leader might instead try and find out why the employee or band member was unhappy, and think about the reason(s) carefully before just dumping an otherwise productive person..


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Yes, I believe that a positive and "pro-company" attitude are better job security than any contract will provide.

I honestly think this is one of the key reasons I am still working where I am.

We went from around 300 people to around 14 in just over three years.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...yep. i make it a point to show up every day in an upbeat mood, and to get on with everybody in the office.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Hamstrung said:


> I've also seen the opposite...


Yes, there are bad managers out there.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

To expand on what David is saying here, I also find negativity to be irritating, not as a manager but as a fellow employee.

I made it known a long time ago that if you want to bash the company, don't waste my time or yours. I'm not interested. If someone is unhappy, they should either solve the problems or leave.

The funny thing is, the same company that others have bashed to no end, has treated me with kindness understanding and trust.

You get back what you give in most cases.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Milkman said:


> To expand on what David is saying here, I also find negativity to be irritating, not as a manager but as a fellow employee.
> 
> I made it known a long time ago that if you want to bash the company, don't waste my time or yours. I'm not interested. If someone is unhappy, they should either solve the problems or leave.
> 
> ...


Years ago I worked at a place with a lot of unsatisfied employees. My mantra became, "Only complain to people who can fix the problem."


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

david henman said:


> i have a feeling that many people end up losing their job because they appear to be, for whatever reason, unhappy.this, i think, plants a seed in the mind of the employer to get rid of that employee at the first opportunity.i think this is how i would feel as an employer.it is certainly how i feel as a bandleader.


It's kind if a vicious circle...often the employee is unhappy because their manager is ineffective, the work is tedious, or they were oversold a job with false expectations. This leads the employee to become jaded, and the employer sees them as disloyal or a bad apple.But I think most times a company fires someone, they should look in the mirror and ask themselves how or if they may have failed the employee. If only to prevent repeating it again. High turnover is a huge distraction and expense which can trickle down to impact their customers satisfaction.


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## GuitarT (Nov 23, 2010)

No doubt a good attitude is an asset in the workplace but I'd say the vast majority of people I've seen let go have been because of poor attendance or poor performance.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

The last time I got fired was when I was working part-time as a telemarketer in Waterloo for a company called Program Source. It sells C-band tv programming (the giant dishes), and I was there as Starchoice was rolling out and they were hemorrhaging customers. Got fired when I started surfing the web to joke sites during work time 'cause there was nothing to do. That and the new supervisor hated the fact that I was smarter than her.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Diablo said:


> It's kind if a vicious circle...often the employee is unhappy because their manager is ineffective, the work is tedious, or they were oversold a job with false expectations. This leads the employee to become jaded, and the employer sees them as disloyal or a bad apple.But I think most times a company fires someone, they should look in the mirror and ask themselves how or if they may have failed the employee. If only to prevent repeating it again. High turnover is a huge distraction and expense which can trickle down to impact their customers satisfaction.


You were going great guns until the mirror thing. Any organization of any significant size recognizes the costs of turnover. I would strongly suggest that mostly firings aren't 'spot items' for a single incident but rather an accumulation, with career counselling, reprimands and/or warnings, and other guidance moves before termination, for exactly the reason you mention.

Attitude is everything. I don't have to be happy about every little corner of my job, or how a certain manager treats me. I DO HAVE to get over that on my own, knowing that I have either made myself heard on the subject OR know that it is beyond my power to change. Whining and crying and bitching and trying to spread bad news and bad faith is just plain bad for your career. Amazes me how many people don't get that, who feel entitled to everything going there way on every last little item. Just ain't real world, sunshine (not meaning any individual here), buck up and shoulder to the grindstone other than see sentence 2 in this paragraph.

All that said, there are too people with great attitudes but poor aptitudes for the work they are in.


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## deadear (Nov 24, 2011)

I quit always before being fired. Always love beating employers to the punch. I really enjoy doing it when they really need me.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> I made it known a long time ago that if you want to bash the company, don't waste my time or yours. I'm not interested. If someone is unhappy, they should either solve the problems or leave.


Oh, how I wish that they would even grant me the power to change ONE SINGLE THING. It is not possible where I am.

Anyway, to the question:

I have never been fired.
-My first job was at a pizza joint. I never missed a shift and picked up many extra. In fact, I didn't go to my high school graduation because I was able to work instead. They hated to see me leave but they couldn't multiply what they were paying me by 3+.
-9 months later I started working for a major manufacturer in the automotive sector. I had multiple years of perfect attendance even though we worked shift work & changed shifts about every 3 or 4 days. I think that I missed 9 days work in 9 years of service. They didn't like to see me go but they offered the buyout to anyone so...
-I worked for a welding shop for 9 months. I was injured on the job attempting to save my co-workers from injury. I missed about 10 days with 2 broken ribs. One of the guys said that he would have been f'd if I didn't grab the thing that got me (which would have got him)...I don't know if he was right or not but my instincts are to do what I can do. When I left the owner had me in and talked about how I impact the morale to such a degree that he would consider matching whatever place that I decided to go to (at the time I was talking to oil drilling companies). Anyway, I had just had a relationship go to pieces so I decided that I needed change and moved to another city.
-Next I worked in a polymers processing facility for about 14 or 15 months. They loved me in that place too with my 100% attendance and general positive affect on people that I worked with. They had built a facility in the US and due to cost overruns there, were cutting shifts in the facility that I worked in. I knew that it was only temporary but it got me looking around and all I saw was opportunity. The manager called me in after I started working at the next place to try to persuade me to go back but I had already made the move and I wanted to be away from raw materials which were prominent there so I thanked them and moved on.
-That had me working in a paper manufacturing facility. I remember hurting my back so badly there while I was still on my 3 month probationary period that I couldn't even put my socks on in the morning. I would wake up early and do a stretching routine to loosen up prior to going in to work...often moving 25 thousand pounds by hand in an 8 hour shift. That was a tough probation! Heavy wooden pallets stacked above your head and eevry time you needed one (about every 5 minutes) you just reached up and grabbed one off of the pile. A young kid didn't like me in that place. don't know what his problem was but he was dating the plant manager's niece. That kid poisoned the whole place against me but they never saw many people who could work like me (beep beep) so they kept me on. I eventually won over just about everyone and after working for them for 3 years & only missing one day due to pneumonia I had found another place that I thought would be an upward move.
-This is when I started working for the place that I work now (many know who that is). I worked for about a year and was still doing a couple of weeks then having no work for a couple of weeks back and forth so I decided to get something else for a while. I started working for a subcontractor in CN's railyard offloading liquid sugars and stopped taking the random & sporadic assignments from my employer. After working for the transloading operation in CN's yard for about 5 months I was offered a permanent position with my current employer. Well...the railyard job was 11:00 am until 8pm and the other job was midnight until 5:00 am. Whoah. That's when I started drinking coffee. During the next 6 months (in fact the entire time with the railyard) I did not miss a day and in fact, only turned away extra hours with the night job about 3 times. I had 80 hour weeks...but my minimum week was 65 hours. Not bad for someone who was 35. People who were 20 were wondering how I could do it. I ended up parting ways with the railyard. With my current employer, I think I have missed 8 or 9 days in close to 10 years.

So,* I have never been fired* and everyone who I have worked for wishes that I would work for them. I have never told an employer to 'stuff it' or anything like that - that's simply not necessary nor mature, but I could understand that sort of action given certain circumstances. I am hoping to go to a temporary position within the corporation next week and my current supervisor said "they'll be lucky to get you". They will be. 

In a workplace you can influence many people. You can even try to influence the really bad ones who are resistant...sometimes you win and sometimes you have top realize that you can't influence them and take that energy & redirect it to the other people who you can get higher dividends out of. Not personal dividends but ones that affect the entire group or the greater part of it.

That said, the place where I work is still getting worse - even more things announced today that serve no purpose other than to foster a more poisonous environment between management and the workers. There is nothing that I can do about it other than take it day by day and plan to sieze opportunity if it ever shows its face again. Until then, remain positive because it just makes everything better.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I found the perfect job about three years ago. I work for myself. The pay reeks, the hours are horrendous. Could not be happier


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I've never been terminated. The number of negative co-workers and employers I've seen would number in the hundreds, but are still outnumbered by the positive employers and co-workers. The best staffs I've worked with were positive, creative, co-operative, and ambitious folks who could make the necessary work go by fast in order to allow the optional work proceed. 

For many years I was shop steward for the union, and I was hired (by a large public sector union) out of the bargaining unit to work as a full-time negotiator responsible for over a dozen collective agreements in hospitals, homes for the aged, municipalities, library, woman's shelter, school maintenance units, and other public sector workplaces. I settled grievances, contract disputes, instructed health and safety, chaired meetings of all sorts, witnessed arbitrations and judicial reviews, and generally tried to keep the peace between the rank and file and their employers. (Rewarding and challenging work that eventually drove me to drinking too much and an eventual burn out and prolonged stress leave followed by my quit.)

However, in all that, I've seen way more people fired for cause than otherwise. Grumpiness/negativity isn't cause for firing, it's cause for other responses from management creativity to employee assistance programs to counselling to re-education and retraining, transfer, even demotion if the negative employee doesn't conform/reform. Employers should be seen to do everything ethical, legal, or contractual to remedy the situation before the situation enters the threat of termination stages in order to absolve themselves of fault. I've seen very many employees who were the most negative people imaginable but who completely changed with a change in employment circumstance. Employees do much better when they are allowed or encouraged to exploit their strengths, are praised when doing well, instructed and trained when not. They also do much better when there is equity, fairness, respect and dignity in the workplace, and when their grievances are heard. Seems easy, but every party needs to be on board. 

There are lots of firable offences of course, the workplace equivalent to "death by cop", like theft, assault, and other criminal enterprise. 

Negative employees do, in my experience, set themselves up for altercations simply because they rarely manage to either keep their mouths shut or respond to situations in a civil manner. Once an altercation takes place it gets increasingly difficult to "unring the bell".

Peace, Mooh.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> ..................... remain positive because it just makes everything better.


It really. really. really does. If you don't believe, try for a week. You'll get some funny looks, ignore the peer pressure. You'll be hooked. Also as a side benefit, it makes it hard for people to push your buttons and make you reactionary...by staying positive, you simply don't allow it. Nobody's perfect, about once or twice a year I let a customer get to me, but I always regret it afterwards despite the fact that I've never been censured for it (I don't react to the point of name calling or certainly not physical violence, just raised voices and a bit of bad language).


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I found the perfect job about three years ago. I work for myself. The pay reeks, the hours are horrendous. Could not be happier


 Yeah, I did that 13 years ago, though the pay only smells funny and the hours are only mildly annoying. My only co-workers are my wife who does the books, and my dogs who do security.

Peace, Mooh.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

it's been a long time since i've been fired from a job. at least 15 yrs. the last time was on purpose.
i was almost never treated in the states the way i am treated here by fellow employees, foreman, supervisors, and stewards. i don't really know how some guys put up with the kind of treatment i routinely see. i have limits which i consciously set for myself. i do not tolerate much in the way of abuse. i work for a living. i don't live to work.
i went through an angry period here due to circumstances that i was not able to control. i think i was very close to a breakdown if i didn't actually have one. i don't know enough about them to say. but the anger thing is something i still struggle with at times, but i am making progress despite a complete lack of competent professional help. guys like smorg are the extreme exception. a rare thing.


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

I had never been fired from a job in almost 45 years in the work force....until last September. I was with the same US company for 12 years, always had a positive attitude, volunteered for everything, was "the leader of the team", and got extremely positive reviews twice a year. I was sitting at my desk, fixing a laptop while the co-worker across from me was taking a personal call and the guy behind me was surfing the web, when my manager, who spent most of his time playing Solitaire, called me down to an office near HR. Ten minutes later, I was in the parking lot with my car keys and no job. The only explanation I got was that the "company was going in a different direction". It was the most humiliating experience in my life and it still smarts just to think of it. I get my last severance cheque in 2 weeks and then I am officially retired. Corporate loyalty is a joke. Yes, a positive attitude is the only way to go, but, when some nobody accountant in head office decides your number is up, your positive attitude and years of corporate loyalty, yadayadayada.....all means diddly squat.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

There really is no such thing as loyalty to a company. At least not today. I always operated on the premise that I was paid to perform a duty and while I was operating on company time I did that to the best of my abilities. 

But I never much cared for the team building nonsense or having a drink with the boss or having my personality type calculated etc

When the day was done I was on my time and tried the best I could to put the job out of my mind. That became harder and harder after about 2006 or so. Now you are expected to do the duties that 10 people may have done 10 years ago


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2012)

smorgdonkey said:


> That said, the place where I work is still getting worse - even more things announced today that serve no purpose other than to foster a more poisonous environment between management and the workers.


sounds like my place. my motto; keep your ass clean, 
rest of the time, sit back and enjoy the chaos.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

keto said:


> It really. really. really does. If you don't believe, try for a week.


Yes. I remember when 'The Secret' was going arouind and everyone was buzzing about it. I asked a few people about it and I said to myself "that will be a waste of time for me because it sounds to me like I wrote it".



laristotle said:


> sounds like my place. my motto; keep your ass clean,
> rest of the time, sit back and enjoy the chaos.


I believe it is all too common today - I guess that we could say 'the norm'.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I look after myself and my family first.

The best way for me to do that is to do the best job I can every day, and quite frankly, just showing up every day puts me waaaay ahead of the curve.

My positive attitude has seemingly kept me working at the same company since 1994.

I've been through plant shutdowns before so I'm not naive enough to think it can't happen again, but I go home each night with a clear conscience.

If my job ends, another will begin almost instantly.

If this approach has failed for others, that's unfortunate.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I think that attitude is the most important in a job. Skills can be taught, attitude is ingrained.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> There really is no such thing as loyalty to a company. At least not today.



...i think that is true, and perhaps has always been true, of larger companies.

my company has only six employees, and i sense a profound loyalty between employer and employee here.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

david henman said:


> ...i think that is true, and perhaps has always been true, of larger companies.
> 
> my company has only six employees, and i sense a profound loyalty between employer and employee here.


I would agree that a company of that size needs to work together far closer and have far better bonds to each other than larger companies. In a setting like that you have to really count on each other more.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> If my job ends, another will begin almost instantly.


I'd love to have whatever skills/education that you have acquired to instill that sort of confidence.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> I'd love to have whatever skills/education that you have acquired to instill that sort of confidence.


No problem.It's called a positive attitude and a bulletproof work ethic.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> No problem.It's called a positive attitude and a bulletproof work ethic.


Oh, I already have that. I just don't see where the other job would come for me if this one ended immediately.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> Oh, I already have that. I just don't see where the other job would come for me if this one ended immediately.


I am approached on a fairly frequent basis by headhunters. It's not that easy apparently to find qualified people who are willing to do what I do.

I have declined offers.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Like nkjanssen and Milkman, I'd have no problem finding and keeping another job if need be. Anywhere and at any time. Yes, there are things I can't do and there's some things I won't do. And, as nk said, it's taken many years of hard work to get to this point. Work ethic? Yup, got one.....it's from the early 60's where you did all the job asked of you and showed up on time then worked until it was time to go home. Would I quit and leave an employer in a lurch? No, I have too much pride in myself. I have left jobs but have always given enough notice for the company to look for someone to replace me. Have I ever been fired? Yes, twice. First time, I punched out my boss 'cause he wouldn't quit hitting on my date at a staff function. The second time I "fraternized" with a secretary and the boss didn't like it.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Well, cheers to you guys. 

I've worked so long and hard that if I lost what I have now I'd probably have to move 4500 KM to get something decent and I'd have to do something that would be physically demanding and I may have too many miles on the machine for that these days. I can still work out in a controlled environment quite hard but there are many things that I wouldn't be able to do. The railyard job? No way. The paper factory? I highly doubt it.

Anyway, I just have to move forward and see if I can get some needed skills before what I am doing implodes or until I just can't do it anymore.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i wonder how you positive attitude guys would do working in my trade. i don't think the positive attitude would last very long. certainly there would be no steady work, no head hunters. add to that co workers who treat you like an a-hole cause they're afraid you'll take their spot, and employers always looking for a way to get over on you. i think you'd go into charlie brown mode pretty quick.


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## fudb (Dec 8, 2010)

cheezyridr said:


> i wonder how you positive attitude guys would do working in my trade. i don't think the positive attitude would last very long. certainly there would be no steady work, no head hunters. add to that co workers who treat you like an a-hole cause they're afraid you'll take their spot, and employers always looking for a way to get over on you. i think you'd go into charlie brown mode pretty quick.


It's which came first, the chicken or egg, IMO. People with success always find reasons to explain why they're doing so well, but at the end of the day people are pretty easy to figure out. Give them a living wage, a schedule that allows for a rich personal life and a little (not even a lot) of respect in the workplace. I have worked for many companies over the years, but I have found very few that offer even two of these three things in combination. I've traded the others for a living wage where I am now, and frankly I'm about to tell them to stuff the wage, I want my life back.

I don't trust the "positive attitude" nonsense, if you're smiling when a bus runs into you it's still gonna hurt. But of course, if there's one thing I've learned about people over all else, it's that they're right... Just ask them.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

fudb said:


> It's which came first, the chicken or egg, IMO. People with success always find reasons to explain why they're doing so well, but at the end of the day people are pretty easy to figure out. Give them a living wage, a schedule that allows for a rich personal life and a little (not even a lot) of respect in the workplace. I have worked for many companies over the years, but I have found very few that offer even two of these three things in combination. I've traded the others for a living wage where I am now, and frankly I'm about to tell them to stuff the wage, I want my life back.I don't trust the "positive attitude" nonsense, if you're smiling when a bus runs into you it's still gonna hurt. But of course, if there's one thing I've learned about people over all else, it's that they're right... Just ask them.


Anyone who sees a positive attitude as nonsense definitely doesn't have one.


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## fudb (Dec 8, 2010)

Milkman said:


> Anyone who sees a positive attitude as nonsense definitely doesn't have one.


Guilty as charged. Don't think I'm the only one in the room, either..


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

fudb said:


> Guilty as charged. Don't think I'm the only one in the room, either..


You're definitely not alone, that's for sure.

Please understand that I'm not naive enough to think that a positive attitude alone will protect me. 

I did get an education and have a fair bit of experience in my profession.

As the saying goes "is the cup half full or half empty?".


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## fudb (Dec 8, 2010)

Positivity is generally more about sanctimony and lack of empathy than any real understanding of how life and the people in it work, IMO. It allows people to blame other people for their own misfortune, "You know that Bill is a real Debbie Downer, no one wants to hang out with him". Perhaps Bill is stuck doing something he hates to do because of some choices or events in his life that were poor, or beyond his control. Perhaps he feels like he'll never achieve his dreams, perhaps he really wanted to be a dancer, but ended up with 2 kids and a job as a WalMart stocker. But you know, if he just had a positive outlook, he'd learn to love spending 10 hours a day putting shampoo on shelves for $10.35 an hour (he got a $.10 raise only 2 years ago). You know, it's tough to afford an apartment with a good floor for practicing his dancing on slightly more than minimum wage, and of course he can't afford to lose his small income long enough to get any retraining to improve his lot.... but if he only had a positive outlook, well I tell you he'd go far....


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Wow, did your mother ever do a number on you.

My positivity has nothing to do with "sanctimony" and is not contingent on anyone's negativity for validation or relevance.

The only connection is that I refuse to let negative peoria bring me down.


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## fudb (Dec 8, 2010)

Milkman said:


> Wow, did your mother ever do a number on you.
> 
> My positivity has nothing to do with "sanctimony" and is not contingent on anyone's negativity for validation or relevance.
> 
> The only connection is that I refuse to let negative peoria bring me down.





fudb said:


> But of course, if there's one thing I've learned about people over all else, it's that they're right... Just ask them.


My mother did in fact do a number on me, thanks for pointing out how smart, loving and wonderful a woman she is. Certainly very positive of you. Also not sanctimonious in the least.... I'll leave this alone now, seems you're taking it personal-like and winning an argument on the internet, as they say, is like winning a gold medal at the special olympics...


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

It didn't work, LOL

I have no problem with your negative outlook.

I just don't share it.

People rise above their problems.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I found the perfect job about three years ago. I work for myself. The pay reeks, the hours are horrendous. Could not be happier



I was thinking of doing the same thing until I found out what a jerk the boss is...lol


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

fudb said:


> ......winning an argument on the internet, as they say, *is like winning a gold medal at the special olympics.*..


After working with adults and children with special needs for almost my entire professional career, I really wish people would refrain form making this type of statement. I knew several athletes that competed nationally and internationally. 
I very much doubt, even being "able-bodied", that you could surpass many of them in their chosen events.

Cheers

Dave


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Thanks Dave,

I have a mentally challenged daughter.

I also find such analogies offensive and even more so some of the terms used to describe such individuals.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

fudb said:


> Positivity is generally more about sanctimony and lack of empathy than any real understanding of how life and the people in it work, IMO. It allows people to blame other people for their own misfortune, "You know that Bill is a real Debbie Downer, no one wants to hang out with him". Perhaps Bill is stuck doing something he hates to do because of some choices or events in his life that were poor, or beyond his control. Perhaps he feels like he'll never achieve his dreams, perhaps he really wanted to be a dancer, but ended up with 2 kids and a job as a WalMart stocker. But you know, if he just had a positive outlook, he'd learn to love spending 10 hours a day putting shampoo on shelves for $10.35 an hour (he got a $.10 raise only 2 years ago). You know, it's tough to afford an apartment with a good floor for practicing his dancing on slightly more than minimum wage, and of course he can't afford to lose his small income long enough to get any retraining to improve his lot.... but if he only had a positive outlook, well I tell you he'd go far....


Nope, not me. It's about my INTERNAL thinking and attitude. I spend 0% of my time on the type of stuff you wrote. I have to control how *I* feel, not how *you* feel, and gossip about third parties again involves 0% of my time. 

You CAN control how you think, but it does take time and practice. It can change how you feel about yourself, for the better, and it can absolutely change how others perceive you, again for the better...but there is peer pressure ("what's gotten into Bill? blah blah gossip gossip sucking up to the boss or variations therof.") that you have to be able to look past or ignore.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Working in what I guess might be described as HR research, I come surprisingly late to this discussion.

There have been some entirely appropriate insights and assertions here. 

1) My own experience, based on research, is that few people like to hire OR fire. It is as risky a proposition as getting married, since making a bad choice can have repercussions. Several things come from this. One is that hiring managers most certainly look for signs and omens that the hire is not going to "blow up in my face" (as one of my former managers so quaintly put it), so attitude most certainly plays a role in any hiring based on face-to-face, and is one of the reasons why the preponderance of managers would rather trust face-to-face than any paper-and-pencil test that has been validated and shown better performance prediction over and over. The other thing that comes from this is that managers will skirt around firing as much as it is possible to do. They do so because it is an uncomfortable thing to handle (few people can deliver bad news with any grace, ease, or sensitivity; I am reminded of the episode of _Cheers_ where Norm became the company's hatchet man). And they also do so because they do not wish to be short-staffed, and most certainly don't want to have to go through hiring somebody all over again. That is not to say that everyone who is fired deserved it, but rather it is to emphasize that it can take a while for things to reach the tipping point, as was noted by others here.


2) While it is true that some people have consistently sunnier dispositions than others (and temperament researchers are also quick to note this in both young children, and in the "mood repair" skills of adults as well), attitude is also a dynamic thing, highly dependent on circumstances. People tend to be happier in their work when first joining an organization, and become less likely to view the organization as fair as time goes on. I've been working with the federal public service employee survey for well over a decade, and the pattern has been consistently and repeatedly observed: people are less likely to respond positively to survey questions broaching on fairness as they rack up more tenure. I suspect the reason is that, with time, people rack up more instances of "what could have happened instead", and it becomes increasingly harder for any particular outcome or decision to be viewed as the best possible outcome/decision in the circumstances as it becomes increasingly more likely for the employee to say "Well that's not what they/so-and-so did over in THAT section/unit".

Organizations can go through cycles, too, resulting in changes in employee outlook. In some instances, employee belligerence may stem from a poorly handled organizational change that was not well-managed at all. Some of you may recall the case of the Public Sector Integrity Commissioner Christiane Ouimet back in 2010. She was placed in charge of an existing organization, but handed a new mandate resulting fro a change in legislation. She wasn't skilled at bringing people along, and they resisted the change. She didn't respond well, and a lot of them left. As it was a small organization, she found herself stuck with too much turnover, took on a lot of the work herself, and did a lousy job at it. The point is that sometimes change in employee outlook is an entirely reasonable response to changing circumstances. termination can result, but it's not so much a declaration that the person is incompetent, as a recognition that this is a relationship that is simply not going to be productive anymore. It's a bit like pro sports coaches. They get fired all the time, and turn up in another franchise. It's not so much they were incompetent (although that CAN happen), but that they weren't the best fit to the composition of the team at this time.

3) I've never been fired, but I've been "let go" on a couple of occasions. I don't plan on retiring, but I can't see remaining in my present job forever even though I might like to. The organization has changed around me, everybody I ever reported to has retired, and the mission I was participating in a decade ago has blown away, replaced with duties that don't value or require my skills. I could probably make as much money, if not more, peddling my skills as consultant or whatever, but quite frankly I don't have much ambition and am a lousy self-promoter. A salary equivalent to what I make would depend on hustling, and I'm no Charlie Hustle. In a little under three years, though, the house will be all paid for so I'll be able to quit and take on lower-paying gigs that are a better match.

4) There is a scale, used to index stress, called the Holmes and Rahe scale ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale ). It lists a bunch of life events that might happen to a person and gives them points. Over the years, the shortcomings of the scale have been noted, with respect to it being able to predict illness or mental distress. One of the shortcomings is that it is not THAT the event happened, but how it happened, and what happened as a consequence. Like some divorces, and even some other seemingly cataclysmic life events, being fired can sometimes be the best thing that ever happened to you, a bit like being pushed from the nest to fly. (Here, I'm reminded of the old Sam the Sham gimmick tune "Oh that's Bad. No that's good." : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uheHQ23dTw4 )


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

One of the things that I have always had that worked for me was that I always believed that I was better than my 'set of circumstances'. That gave me the fuel to progress regardless of the challenge. It was much easier when I knew that I could count on my physical machine to do anything that was required of it but I still think that, to a certain extent, that I will be able to progress. 

I don't know where it came from or if it was directly taught to me, I just know that it has been with me a very long time.


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## fudb (Dec 8, 2010)

greco said:


> After working with adults and children with special needs for almost my entire professional career, I really wish people would refrain form making this type of statement. I knew several athletes that competed nationally and internationally.
> I very much doubt, even being "able-bodied", that you could surpass many of them in their chosen events.
> 
> Cheers
> ...


Mea Culpa Dave, I do know better and never use said comparison in my life, and I shouldn't have this time. I have also worked with the developmentally delayed, and they taught me more about life and the people in it than I would have ever thought possible. 

Milkman, you throw around some pretty offensive statements yourself, or I'd apologize to you too.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

fudb said:


> Mea Culpa Dave, I do know better and never use said comparison in my life, and I shouldn't have this time. I have also worked with the developmentally delayed, and they taught me more about life and the people in it than I would have ever thought possible. Milkman, you throw around some pretty offensive statements yourself, or I'd apologize to you too.


LMAO

Dude, if the truth hurts, so be it.

I calls em as I sees em.

I don't need your apology.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Another thing that contributes to an employee's attitude is burnout. 

I worked for RBC for almost 7 years. In that time, I worked a couple different jobs, and at times the work could be enjoyable and rewarding. However, most of the time, the employer's performance expectations were high - very high. What I saw happen over and over again (and eventually happened to me) was an employee who was a valuable asset (good at their work, and very experienced) end up getting burned out in the position they were in. They would almost surely excel if moved to a different environment or job within the company, however the trap that they would fall into is that because of the burnout, their performance would begin to suffer. Once their performance was suffering, they would be denied all opportunity to apply on internal postings for other positions (even lateral) because the application required the support of their manager, and the manager would not support an application for an employee who was not meeting their goals. So, the burnt out employee would be forced to continue in their role that was burning them out, and of course, their morale would deteriorate. Finally, the only option would end up being to quit or stay on long enough to end up being fired. I saw many capable, intelligent, and conscientious employees fall victim to this and end up leaving the company. It could start to happen very quickly too, as performance reviews were done quarterly and not annually. You could fall behind in as little as 3 to 6 months, and then have to spend another 6 months to a year trying to dig yourself out when your performance slipped. 

The most amusing story about this situation was a coworker I had. He was a customer service agent and applied to an opening as an investment specialist. He was told by his manager that he could not apply for the position because just one of his efficiency metrics was off by 1%. He escalated this to the department head, and was still denied. During the meeting, he even said to the department head, "So, if I was someone just applying for this off the street, you're saying I'd almost for sure get an interview, but because I work here I'm not even allowed to apply?" The answer was, "Yes." So, this guy ended up quitting. He got a job as an investment officer over at a rival financial institution. Not even one year after he left RBC, he was phoned by the manager of the investment department at RBC. They were headhunting him. They offered him the job that he wasn't even allowed to apply for a year earlier, except at WAY more pay than he would have gotten if he'd stayed with the company and been promoted within. He accepted. Within two years of returning, he was a supervisor in investments.

I ended up burning out myself. I understand the positive thinking thing, but it can be tough when you're at the end of your rope. Honestly, in my last months at RBC, several days my mission for the day was just to make it through my shift without just getting up and walking out the front door. It's tough to be a ray of sunshine when the thought of going to work in the morning makes you feel physically ill.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

keto said:


> Nope, not me. It's about my INTERNAL thinking and attitude. I spend 0% of my time on the type of stuff you wrote. I have to control how *I* feel, not how *you* feel, and gossip about third parties again involves 0% of my time.
> 
> You CAN control how you think, but it does take time and practice. It can change how you feel about yourself, for the better, and it can absolutely change how others perceive you, again for the better...but there is peer pressure ("what's gotten into Bill? blah blah gossip gossip sucking up to the boss or variations therof.") that you have to be able to look past or ignore.


I don't get it though, I'm smart, I work really hard and am company minded (In that I mean I try to make positive changes in my job for the better) I keep to myself and generally monid my own business. People percieve me as "unnaproachable and stoic" I bake cookies for the office and offer to help anyone who is bogged down.. Two girls i work with, watch Ellen Degeneres all day on the Internet, talk smack about everybody and spend the company dime doing things like calling California long distance and talking for hours or spend three days doing nothing but investigate and book their vacations online They take long lunches and never thought of booking appointments outside work.. Everybody LOVES them. I don't get it.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Starbuck, ya I get some of the same thing, or used to when I worked in an office. I was seen as stuck up and arrogant. I never ever ever felt inside that I was better than anyone else. I just don't think that way. I do, however, greatly value common sense and admittedly have a low tolerance for gross stupidity, so I suppose that comes off as, well, stuck up and arrogant. But anyways, I never viewed office life (or life in general) as a popularity contest so it didn't bother me much, and I did have a social life with some of my co-workers, so I wasn't a total ass. And external customers seemed to like me well enough, when I worked in sales I always had great results in the company I was with at the time.

Now I do 95% of my work over the phone, working from home. Works for me. I collect accounts primarily, big ones. I approach my job as problem solving rather than desk pounding and demanding. Mostly, our customers love me and my results are great. Can't imagine working in a big office again, my brain and body both have bad reactions when I try to envision it LOL.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

keto said:


> Starbuck, ya I get some of the same thing, or used to when I worked in an office. I was seen as stuck up and arrogant. I never ever ever felt inside that I was better than anyone else. I just don't think that way. I do, however, greatly value common sense and admittedly have a low tolerance for gross stupidity, so I suppose that comes off as, well, stuck up and arrogant. But anyways, I never viewed office life (or life in general) as a popularity contest so it didn't bother me much, and I did have a social life with some of my co-workers, so I wasn't a total ass. And external customers seemed to like me well enough, when I worked in sales I always had great results in the company I was with at the time.
> 
> Now I do 95% of my work over the phone, working from home. Works for me. I collect accounts primarily, big ones. I approach my job as problem solving rather than desk pounding and demanding. Mostly, our customers love me and my results are great. Can't imagine working in a big office again, my brain and body both have bad reactions when I try to envision it LOL.


Ya, I don't love it. I mean I like what I do, but I hate the politics. Not much common sense going on around here. There is a real sense of entitlement that I certainly can't appreciate. It's a living.


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## jimsz (Apr 17, 2009)

A manager of a large, well known telecommunications company who was a know sycophant to the VP, came up with an idea that was supposed to bring in revenues to that particular group. She had no credentials as far as business was concerned, started out as clerk and over the years eventually became a manager. 

Another manager of that same group, who had a degree pointed out there were other expenses that were not considered into the idea and easily showed the plan would actually lose money.

The VP fired him four days later and her idea was deployed. And yes, it lost a lot of money but she still received accolades for the idea. 

If you wonder why your phone/internet bills are so high...


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

jimsz said:


> A manager of a large, well known telecommunications company who was a know sycophant to the VP, came up with an idea that was supposed to bring in revenues to that particular group. She had no credentials as far as business was concerned, started out as clerk and over the years eventually became a manager.
> 
> Another manager of that same group, who had a degree pointed out there were other expenses that were not considered into the idea and easily showed the plan would actually lose money.
> 
> ...


I worked for a tire manufacturer for 9 years. In one department, the manager was obviously someone who wasn't very competent. It didn't really matter because as long as the work got done (and the small group in the department was very competent) his weaknesses were not an issue. The weaknesses only really become an issue when 'push comes to shove'. This guy's case was that he had attained the position and it was apparent that he was not capable of performing the requirements of the position to the level that they would have to be (to his superiors and the workforce 'under' him). 

Anyway, I was young but I was well aware of the way that politics went and I didn't go at him head on because the corporate structure was such that problems like that were taken care of in a 'patient' manner (read: way too much time to demote). 

There was a department that was being shut down and the other workers had been moved out & on to other jobs within the company - it was just one other guy and myself left. Part of the process of shutting down this section of the operation had to do with containing the byproducts of a chemical compounding process which was produced on a daily basis for years. The waste was toxic and corrosive. 

I had offered up that I thought that the only way that I believed the waste would be removed/contained would be to manually put it in the barrels to be sent for disposal. I clearly explained why I believed this. The manner in which it was decided upon to process the waste was chosen over my suggestion by this 'manager' and it went against one of the consistent and unwavering processing conditions which the people who worked in the department had learned by the process of compounding over 2 decades. I clearly repeated the reasons why I didn't think it would work but also clearly stated that I wasn't saying that I wouldn't try it - just that there was a fundamental and integral reason why the process itself is flawed and I thought destined to be unsuccessful.

Well, we had to do it my way because it was impossible to do it the way that the manager wanted to do it. We could go through the motions but, just as the process had dictated for decades, it would not provide the outcome that the manager wanted - it NEVER did.

After the entire job was finished the manager gave me the exit review that everyone gets when they left a department. He stated that I was unwilling to listen to other people's ideas. He was just that angry that I was right and everyone knew it - and it wasn't even something that had started with a large group in a confrontation or anything. I had quietly presented him with my views on the thing, I didn't 'make him look bad' (he did that very well by himself). The other guys all knew it too and had all presented him with the same information.

Anyway, after I had moved on to the next department, when I would run into him, he wouldn't even look me in the eye. Me, a 24 year old and him, a 40ish year old 'man'.

It was priceless.


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## fudb (Dec 8, 2010)

Milkman said:


> LMAO
> 
> Dude, if the truth hurts, so be it.
> 
> ...


a troll says what?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

LOL,

Cool, a guy with 200 posts is calling someone who has been a member for years with posts totalling in the thousands a "troll".

I'll wait until you blow over, just like most blow hards.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Addendum

I was promoted on Monday. That damned positive attitude again.

I guess maybe my experience doesn't reflect those of others here, but it's working for me.

Just saying.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Why, man? WHYY!!?:rockon2:

[video=youtube;BKaDCP-wKr8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKaDCP-wKr8&amp;feature=related[/video]


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

What a great track.

Bad assed tone.


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

I got fired once, back in the 90s. I was so confident in the initial job interview that I was hired beyond my actual abilities and then I couldn't quite do the job. I was depressed about it for a couple of weeks, but then went onto something far better, working for myself. I've been self-employed ever since.


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