# Building vs Buying



## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

Hello,

I am in a conundrum. I have the skills to build effects pedals from scratch but not to do the enclosures up nicely, nor do I have the desire to do so. They would likely end up bare metal with sharpie on it. Anyways, would you build copies of famous old pedals like Big Muff's or Fuzz Face's or would you buy current re-issue versions and modify them to old specs or tune them if need be? 

Thanks,

David Cole


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

If I could build my own instead of buying them I'd have a board full of bare metal pedals with sharpie on them.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

at least as far as fuzzes and stuff go, id build them.
and thats what i do.
it would get pretty expensive if i was buying vintage stuff, or even re-issues or clones.
finishing the boxes isnt a big deal, id be fine with plain metal and sharpies,
but i like to paint my boxes.
just a solid colour- and i dont worry about labelling and stuff.
i simply sand the boxes, and squirt paint on them.
half the fun for me is building the things.
ive spent days putting a pedal together, tweaking it so its just right-
only to have it sit on a shelf never getting any use lol.
i can understand that people might not be into building thier own,
but for me it makes sense.

that said, ive been having a blast messing around with wahs lately.
tweaking crybaby's.
makes most sense economically to just mod an existing wah,
as opposed to building one from scratch.


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2014)

If you're skilled enough then build them. I am not and I don't


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There is certainly a satisfaction that comes from building, plus an ability to have something that is both unique and oriented towards one's own tonal priorities/preferences.

If one happens to be a regular builder, and has stockpiled parts at low cost, and standardized procedures, then it is possible to make yourself a pedal fairly cheaply, and with minial trouble. Not Danelectro or Behringer cheap, but cheap. I've got my pile of rub-on lettering, my bin of spray paint bought in dollar stores, my toaster oven for baking finishes, my drill press, my pile of carbide drills, my cheap copper board, my etchant bath, and my drawers of parts. If I make, I'm not starting from scratch and I have pretty much all I need right at home.

If one builds infrequently, and has to order parts, borrow tools and equipment, etc., then it can be much cheaper and less exasperating to simply buy new or 2nd hand, and mod to taste; depending on whether the mods desired are physically feasible. For example, with so many manufacturers migrating to surface-mount construction, and digital platforms, modding can be tough for many folks, so a build made with traditional through-hole parts is easier to do.

There are also occasions where the hardest part of a build has been done by someone else, leaving the easier customization for you. Finally, there are some designs that are pretty generic - perhaps because their patent protection has run out by now - and can easily serve as platforms to customize/mod a sow's ear into a silk purse (i.e., turn pedal A into pedal B).


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

The general consensus seems to build if you can and I think that is probably what I will do. When a new Fuzz Face is $150 and you can get all the parts for much less its a no-brainer. I have all my parts selected so hopefully there will be some build threads coming up.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

dcole said:


> The general consensus seems to build if you can and I think that is probably what I will do. When a new Fuzz Face is $150 and you can get all the parts for much less its a no-brainer. I have all my parts selected so hopefully there will be some build threads coming up.


Is there nothing else to it then getting all the parts and putting them together?
I have no experience at all but somehow I think I'm missing something here.

G.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

a fuzz face can be finicky-
i dont have the reciept now,
but i got a set of germanium transistors from smallbear for about $20.
a box for $7-
jacks and a switch maybe another $10.
resistors and caps are cheap.

but- i breadboarded, then built the thing.
i dont know how long that took-
but it took me some hours to get it right.
but what was important to me was i had a good time doing it.
and i havent even finished tweaking it, a couple years later.

same with everything ive built-
some fuzzes ive put together cost maybe $20 total.

i like learning things-
i like doing stuff,
i like making stuff.
for me, its a no-brainer.

i definately save money by building my own,
but thats a by- product of my interest in such things.
if i didnt feel like doing it, or lacked the aptitude, i wouldnt do it.


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

GTmaker said:


> Is there nothing else to it then getting all the parts and putting them together?
> I have no experience at all but somehow I think I'm missing something here.
> 
> G.


I am not sure I understand your question. Get the appropriate parts, build, play!


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

dcole said:


> I am not sure I understand your question. Get the appropriate parts, build, play!


Guess I should of been more specific.
What I wanted to ask was...
Do you get the exact same parts for your build OR 
a replacement part thats supposed to be the same as the original?

G,


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

Oh, I get you now. I have no time for original/replica parts. The cost of obtaining them verses the difference in the sound it would make is negligible to me. I don't want to sound like Jimi, just really like the sound of the FF I built on my breadboard. Frankly, I have never even used pedals until a fellow brought in an old Shin-ei pedal for me to fix up. It had such a cool, different sound that it enticed me into doing more research about pedals.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

A former student used to build pedals and house them in electrical boxes marked with Sharpie for me. None of them lasted very long but they all sounded great. Awesome addition to thepedal board. That kid was a junior genius. 

Build AND buy, but build first.

Peace, Mooh.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

GTmaker said:


> Is there nothing else to it then getting all the parts and putting them together?
> I have no experience at all but somehow I think I'm missing something here.
> G.


The unspoken part is that, while it can cost me a couple of bucks to put together a pedal that sounds great, NOT factored in is the thousands of dollars it took me to:
a) put together all the tools I need to do it,
b) have all the inventory I need in the way of electronic parts and "packaging",
c) all the money spent on buying and photocopying learning materials,
d) all the money spent in earlier years on projects that tanked.

When people whine about how "there's only $10 worth of parts in that pedal they're selling for $229", they tend to forget the fairly sizeable investment the builder is trying to recoup from the years leading up to it, at the same time as paying their rent/mortgage, car bills, living costs, credit card balance, etc.

Even in the case of something as simple as a Fuzz Face, where one has found a vendor that can save you the aggravation of having to hunt down germanium transistors and sort through them until you find a pair that meet the specs for the "classic" sound, the 2 transistors need to be in a certain order, and unless they arrive marked Q1 and Q2, you would require the meter and knowledge to know what to measure to make that call.

It's not _*impossible*_ to buy a kit (e.g., BYOC), pay attention to the instructions, ask for advice when you need it, and put together something that works to your satisfaction a month or two later after all the bugs have been worked out. And it is not impossible to build something that doesn't work, ask around for advice, find out what you did wrong, fix it, and eventually have unit working. But it sure ain't as simple as putting Pop-Tarts in the toaster. Everything that people make look easy generally has several thousand hours behind it to make it look that way.

A couple of years back, a buddy who was teching for Sheryl Crow's band invited me for their sound check, and introduced me to her guitarist Peter Stroud, whom you may know from all those Pro Guitar Shop videos, in addition to his work with Crow. What got me backstage was Stroud's desperate need for a 68pf mica capacitor, that I happened to have at home, and which my buddy e-mailed me about before they hit town. I watched in awe as, 90 minutes before show-time, he whipped open his amp head, and replaced the cap on his bright switch, and put it back together. It looked easy, but I know that it took several hundred, if not thousand, hours of familiarizing himself with that amp, and with the electronics underlying the component change, to zip in and out like that.

If a person HAS the electronics background, then there isn't quite as much to learn, and the process of building one's own pedal and debugging it, can be fast enough to avoid being frustrating. Still, a little patience goes a long way.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

P.S.: If you would like home-made pedals to look nice and not simply be a naked aluminum box with Sharpie on it, I can recommend buying powder-coated boxes with the colour of your choice, and getting some paint-pens from the local art-supply store. The pens have flowing lacquer, and fine tips, so that you can write your legending on. And in this winter weather, when you can't work in the garage because it's too cold, and you can't open a window to get some fresh air circulation and get rid of the paint fumes, having a box come pre-painted is a nice perk.


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## TWRC (Apr 22, 2011)

There's two schools of thought that I have whenever I build a pedal.

1) Build as close of a replica of "xyz" circuit as possible.
2) Build your own variation of "xyz" circuit. 

Honestly, there's nothing more satisfying than plugging the finished product in and listening to it for the very first time. The sense of accomplishment is great and will most likely fuel your desire to build more pedals. I've built many pedals over the years and the ones I'm most proud of are the ones where I was able to tweak them to my own needs. In fact, I have one of those on my board right now, and it's a great conversation piece when people ask "what's that pedal"?

As for finishing, the sky's the limit. I chose to buy sticker paper that I print graphics on with my laser printer. I then spray them with a bit of lacquer to seal the image and then paste it on the enclosure.


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## Jims (May 29, 2007)

Would you DIY a home reno? How about doing your own oil change/ In my experience, there are people who love the challenge of doing things themselves, and talk about saving money so that folks don't think they're nuts. Yes, you can save money and end up with a similar level of quality if you have the key skills and knowledge. You can also spend way more time and money in a frustrating series of hang ups and set backs. Some folks would rather buy the finished product. They may pay more for the convenience, but they do have the convenience. 

Personally, I enjoy working on a DIY project almost as much as using the finished item, so for me it's a no-brainer. Of course, some folks would rather call a plumber than reach for the drain-o


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

the following is a great response which tells me there is a hec of a lot going on that I obviously know nothing about....
On the surface it seemed too easy. I guess the devil is in the details.
Thanks for sharing

G.




mhammer said:


> The unspoken part is that, while it can cost me a couple of bucks to put together a pedal that sounds great, NOT factored in is the thousands of dollars it took me to:
> a) put together all the tools I need to do it,
> b) have all the inventory I need in the way of electronic parts and "packaging",
> c) all the money spent on buying and photocopying learning materials,
> ...


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Thanks for the nod. I'm a regular on the DIYstompbox forum, and when newbies ask for DIY projects to start with, one of the things I generally recommend is making yourself a loop selector; either a single or a dual. In their most basic form, these are entirely passive units (though powering them, in order to have indicator LEDs, is a real convenience), that only really need a box, a switch or two, and a bunch of jacks. There is nothing to measure, no circuit-board problems to be concerned with, and everything can be understood by eye. Just as importantly, it is something you will _always_ have a use for, as long as you have pedals, and not something like a simple fuzz that thrills you for a couple of weeks (because you built it), and then sits gathering dust for a decade.

Of course, you still need to be able to drill the holes in the box, be able to read a wiring diagram, and produce a decent solder joint. But the scope of tools and knowledge required is decidedly narrower than what a lot of other things require, and the payoff is pretty good.


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## cdayo (Jan 28, 2014)

mhammer said:


> Thanks for the nod. I'm a regular on the DIYstompbox forum, and when newbies ask for DIY projects to start with, one of the things I generally recommend is making yourself a loop selector; either a single or a dual. In their most basic form, these are entirely passive units (though powering them, in order to have indicator LEDs, is a real convenience), that only really need a box, a switch or two, and a bunch of jacks. There is nothing to measure, no circuit-board problems to be concerned with, and everything can be understood by eye.


Would a foot switch channel selector for a Marshall DSL be similar to this idea?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

You mean in simplicity? Yeah, I suppose so.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

cdayo said:


> Would a foot switch channel selector for a Marshall DSL be similar to this idea?


This recent thread might interest you:

http://www.guitarscanada.com/showthread.php?61459-Some-DIY-fun-last-night

Let us know how you build progresses.

Cheers

Dave


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## cdayo (Jan 28, 2014)

greco said:


> This recent thread might interest you:
> 
> http://www.guitarscanada.com/showthread.php?61459-Some-DIY-fun-last-night
> 
> ...


This single handedly ruined productivity today at work. All i can think about is how I am going to find time to do this in the next 2 days!


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

cdayo said:


> This single handedly ruined productivity today at work. All i can think about is how I am going to find time to do this in the next 2 days!


Sorry....just trying to help. 

Maybe it wouldn't have been such a productive day anyway..LOL

I await news of the results of your "project"

Cheers

Dave


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## kw_guitarguy (Apr 29, 2008)

cdayo said:


> This single handedly ruined productivity today at work. All i can think about is how I am going to find time to do this in the next 2 days!


I apologize for the disruption in your productivity! (Im the guy who posted that thread) 

For years I have gone back and forth about building my own pedals, amps etc...What I can say, from that footswitch experience is that I am YEARS if not, DECADES away from wanting to build my own effects etc...mhammer hit it on the head (no pun intended) start with a footswitch/loop selector/A/B box and see how you like soldering, de-soldering, drinking, soldering and so on...

If you truly enjoy that process, then I say you're ready to move on to greater things. The amount of time I spent with that foot switch tells me that I can a passive circuit (no boards, caps, weird thingies etc...) without too much issue, but I have no desire as of yet to get into anything more complicated!

~Andrew


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## Arcane (Oct 14, 2012)

GTmaker said:


> Is there nothing else to it then getting all the parts and putting them together?
> I have no experience at all but somehow I think I'm missing something here.
> 
> G.





dcole said:


> I am not sure I understand your question. Get the appropriate parts, build, play!


Sure, (almost) anyone can paint by the numbers and get a pedal to work. Not everyone can build a pedal that works dependably. Sure, (almost) anyone can make a Fuzz Face from a kit. However, not everyone can make a decent sounding fuzz face. Even fewer can make an excellent sounding build. In other words, no, it is not always as simple as dcole represents. Knowledge of the circuit and the building skill is something you do not buy with the kit. Those facets are earned.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

If you're building them to use, then I would say build them.


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

I may have represented it as "easy" as I am an Electronics Engineering Technologist with 13 years of working with audio electronics as a hobby. Never did get a job directly designing or building stuff. For me it is easy to arrange the parts and build a decent sounding pedal. For someone who has no prior electronics or soldering skills, they may find building a pedal very difficult and may potentially give up at some point.



Arcane said:


> Sure, (almost) anyone can paint by the numbers and get a pedal to work. Not everyone can build a pedal that works dependably. Sure, (almost) anyone can make a Fuzz Face from a kit. However, not everyone can make a decent sounding fuzz face. Even fewer can make an excellent sounding build. In other words, no, it is not always as simple as dcole represents. Knowledge of the circuit and the building skill is something you do not buy with the kit. Those facets are earned.


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## cdayo (Jan 28, 2014)

Just completed two builds tonight. One is a basic killswitch, thought it would make a good practice/test run and also made an FX loop selector. 

Both with parts from active surplus, however the location I went to didn't have any 2pdt switches. Just wondering from the Toronto crowd where you guys go to get your materials?

I studied two different schematics for the FX loop , one from beavis audio









and one from trade secrets.









I was thrown off a little bit by the differences in the schematics. trade secrets calls for a stereo jack to correspond with the LED circuit while Beavis just incorporates it into the switch in a mono setup. Regardless, trades schematic was easier to follow and looks much cleaner in the box so I based my design off of that.

Didn't get around to installing the LED yet but I tested the circuit and have a resistor that works with the LED (both schematics call for different ratings). Lastly, I think adding the volume pot to control FX level as seen in beavis would be cool but I am wondering if it would be practical? My question is would the pot act as a wet/dry knob or would it only control signal volume post loop? I am looking into it now, just thought I would see what you guys have to say.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I will recommend installing a 2.2M resistor between hot and ground for both the main output and loop-send jacks. For reasons I've outlined elsewhere here, many commercial pedals of the sort that use a momentary footswitch to do solid-state effect-on/off switching will have a "hanging" capacitor on their input, with no viable path to drain off. When those pedals are used in conjunction with true bypass pedals or true-bypass loop-selectors, this can result in annoying switch-popping. The addition of the suggested resistors will not cure ALL switch-popping in your signal path, but it will reduce, if not eliminate, any switch-popping of pedals _directly connected _to the loop-send and main output jacks.

John Lyons at the beavis site has a wiring diagram for an order-flippable dual-loop selector pedal. I've made several, and they're handy, allowing one to effectively "repatch" one's pedal board with the flick of a switch. John's diagram shows a 4PDT stompswitch for order-flipping, with LED indicators. But, truth be told, if you have a simple 3PDT toggle switch (less combersome, or costly), the angle of the bat handle on the toggle indicates what comes first or second in the order. And, while anything is possible, I suppose, it is very rare for anyone to need to flip the order of pedals on the fly, requiring a stompswitch. A toggle is sufficient for 98% of instances.


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## cdayo (Jan 28, 2014)

mhammer said:


> I will recommend installing a 2.2M resistor between hot and ground for both the main output and loop-send jacks.


DO you mean soldering it between tip and sleeve on the jacks themselves? Maybe there is a picture of this or schematic?

BTW, completed my loop pedal today, LED and all, according to tradesecrets schematic. As i said it required a stereo jack so I had to reinstall that with the LED circuit attached. I am curious about this resistor business though. Haven't had much time to test it but I will report back if I hear any popping. thanks again


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Yes. "hot and ground" = "tip and sleeve".

Beginners can often get confused about which lug is which in wiring up stereo jacks. The typical result is that they can't understand why they keep using up batteries overnight. It's a forgiveable error. Over time, unless you NEVER change brand of jack, sometimes the order of which lug goes to tip and which to ring gets moved around. And in some instances, you can't even identify which one is ground without a meter. Folks think they're connecting the battery leads to the right lugs and they end up wiring it so that the battery is always on, rather than turned on by inserting a plug.


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## cdayo (Jan 28, 2014)

mhammer said:


> Folks think they're connecting the battery leads to the right lugs and they end up wiring it so that the battery is always on, rather than turned on by inserting a plug.


This is how I knew it was correct 
Thanks for the continued tips!


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

Takes a good eye, common sense and a multimeter if your unsure. That generally gets me through most problems with jacks or which lugs to solder on a potentiometer.

So, now that I have build a Fuzz Face, I don't want to build anything else. I think I'm in the buy category now. I do enjoy putzing on a breadboard and I like the soldering stuff but I sure do hate picking out parts and ordering them. I might have to give BYOC a look. Oh, and I also hate ordering parts.

Anyway, Fuzz Face's rock!



mhammer said:


> Yes. "hot and ground" = "tip and sleeve".
> 
> Beginners can often get confused about which lug is which in wiring up stereo jacks. The typical result is that they can't understand why they keep using up batteries overnight. It's a forgiveable error. Over time, unless you NEVER change brand of jack, sometimes the order of which lug goes to tip and which to ring gets moved around. And in some instances, you can't even identify which one is ground without a meter. Folks think they're connecting the battery leads to the right lugs and they end up wiring it so that the battery is always on, rather than turned on by inserting a plug.


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## cdayo (Jan 28, 2014)

Anyone attempted a valvecaster?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Small Bear preselects parts for specific circuits.
While their inventory is somewhat limited, and not really oriented towards pedal-builders, I've had pleasant experiences with dipmicro in Niagara Falls: http://www.dipmicro.com/store/ Cheap parts, cheap fast shipping. A good source for stocking your resistor, capacitor, diode, and chip bins. Heck, buy 10, and you can get PT2399 digital delay chips for 55 cents a pop. They don't carry a huge assortment of transistors, but many of the most common ones for a pittance.

I still order stuff from Tayda, but Tayda can take 3 weeks to deliver, while I usually get stuff from dipmicro ordered on Monday by Friday.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

cdayo said:


> Anyone attempted a valvecaster?


My son-in-law built a valvecaster for me as a gift. It works well and I like it.

It was his first pedal build and once he got the Vero board layout (using Vero board was his choice) sorted out, he found it to be a reasonably straight forward build. 

Cheers

Dave


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

Where do you get your 3PDT switches or do you use a different switch methodology? 



mhammer said:


> Small Bear preselects parts for specific circuits.
> While their inventory is somewhat limited, and not really oriented towards pedal-builders, I've had pleasant experiences with dipmicro in Niagara Falls: http://www.dipmicro.com/store/ Cheap parts, cheap fast shipping. A good source for stocking your resistor, capacitor, diode, and chip bins. Heck, buy 10, and you can get PT2399 digital delay chips for 55 cents a pop. They don't carry a huge assortment of transistors, but many of the most common ones for a pittance.
> 
> I still order stuff from Tayda, but Tayda can take 3 weeks to deliver, while I usually get stuff from dipmicro ordered on Monday by Friday.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I get them from Tayda or Small Bear Electronics, depending on whom I'm placing an order with. I don't buy a ton of stuff, so the shipping charges (which won't dip below some minimum) tend to shape my order.

For a number of things, parts quality will be higher from SBE than from Tayda. Obviously things like chips or transistors will be from many of the same manufacturers, but things like pad-per-hole boards or the heat resistance of toggle/stomp switch housing are higher quality from SBE. If you know what you're doing and what to watch out for, then a switch is a switch is a switch. If one is a beginner, it's all too easy to overheat the solder lugs on a stompswitch and find they start wiggling. And, as I've documented here in many a post, the little dab of grease inside the stompswitch can liquify, flow over the contact inside, and act as an unintended insulator, leading to either intermittent contact, or outright switch failure.

That stuff is all outlined here:
[video=youtube;6uhDKFhqYnw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uhDKFhqYnw[/video]


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

I purchased all my parts through Mouser as I was getting some negative tip power supplies for me and a buddy. It all came out over $200 so I got free shipping. With that I just got Alpha 3PDT's through Mouser as it would cost more to purchase them through Smallbear with shipping, even if the switch costs $3 less. Its hard to cost analysis on all the options. I wish Digikey had all this stuff. Can't beat flat rate $8 shipping.


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