# Modes of the scales.



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I just want to confirm I'm going in the right direction concerning modes. My instructor gave them to me in C. Now I am just sitting down and figuring the other keys on my own. It seems easy enough but I just want to make sure that I don't do this wrong all week and not find out until I see my instructor again next week.

A

Ionian

A – B – C# - D – E – F# - G# - A

Dorian

B – C# - D – E – F# - G# - A - B

Phrygian

C# - D – E – F# - G# - A - B – C#

Lydian

D – E – F# - G# - A - B – C# - D

Mixolydian

E – F# - G# -A - B – C# - D – E

Aeolian

F# - G# - A - B – C# - D – E – F#


Locrian

G# - A - B – C# - D – E – F# - G#

B

Ionian 

B – C# - D# - E – F# - G# - A# - B

Dorian

C# - D# - E – F# - G# - A# - B – C#

Phrygian

D# - E – F# - G# - A# - B – C# - D#

Lydian

E – F# - G# - A# - B – C# - D# - E

Mixolydian

F# - G# - A# - B – C# - D# - E – F#

Aeolian

G# - A# - B – C# - D# - E – F# - G#

Locrian

A# - B – C# - D# - E – F# - G# - A#


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## 1PUTTS (Sep 8, 2007)

I've found this guy's lessons to be very helpful - this link is his intro to "modes" and then there's a bunch of follow up lessons on each mode. His name is Dave Weiner and he plays in Steve Vai's band (so I assume he knows what he's doing). But aside from that, I like how he explains things in an articulate manner:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8hyWfB0KTI


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## GuyB (May 2, 2008)

Hi guitarman2,

I have a doubt ! But it may be because of the way things are written :

«A
Ionian
A – B – C# - D – E – F# - G# - A
Dorian
B – C# - D – E – F# - G# - A - B
...»

What I understand when I read this is :

1- A Ionian is : A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A ; that's O.K.

2- A Dorian is : B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A-B ; if that's what you mean, it's not O.K. It's a B Dorian.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2008)

Paul said:


> The 1st to the 8th is a major scale
> The 2nd to the 9th is dorian
> the 3rd to the 10th is phrygian
> the 4th to the 11th is lydian
> ...


+1 to that. I still remember the eureka moment as a teen when I figured this out. The next step to under stand each mode's sound so you can apply them with tasty results!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

GuyB said:


> Hi guitarman2,
> 
> I have a doubt ! But it may be because of the way things are written :
> 
> ...



OK. I am lost as to what you mean. So am I wrong? I was listing all the modes with in the particular scale. Am I wrong in the notes or am I just wrong in how I am labeling them?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

1PUTTS said:


> I've found this guy's lessons to be very helpful - this link is his intro to "modes" and then there's a bunch of follow up lessons on each mode. His name is Dave Weiner and he plays in Steve Vai's band (so I assume he knows what he's doing). But aside from that, I like how he explains things in an articulate manner:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8hyWfB0KTI


Thanks for the link 1putts. Helped alot. Took me a while to watch it. He got talking about salt, pepper and spices and I got hungry and had to pause it to go to Wendy's.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> OK. I am lost as to what you mean. So am I wrong? I was listing all the modes with in the particular scale. Am I wrong in the notes or am I just wrong in how I am labeling them?


Wrong in how you're labeling them. The tonic is generally used to name the scale. So if the scale starts on B it's a B <blah> scale. Using A major the second mode is B Dorian, not A Dorian. A Dorian is actually the second mode of the G Major scale.

So if A major is your starting point the modes are:

A Ionian
B Dorian
C# Phrygian
D Lydian
E Mixolydian
F# Aeolian
G# Locrian


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## GuyB (May 2, 2008)

Paul said:


> Well then....here is a test in the key of C, (one chord per bar):
> 
> E-7 / A7 / D-7 / Db7 / Cmaj7
> 
> What scales, (modes) would you play on each chord?


Here is a choice. In the parentheses is the major scale from wich the mode is derived.

On Em7 :
Em pentatonic
F#m pentatonic
Bm pentatonic
E Dorian (D)
E Phrygian (C)
E Aeolian (G)

On A7 :
A Mixolydian (D)

On Dm7 :
Dm pentatonic
Em pentatonic
Am pentatonic
D Dorian (C)
D Phrygian (Bb)
D Aeolian (F)

On Db7 :
Db Mixolydian (Gb)

On Cmaj7 :
C Ionian (C)
C Lydian (G)
Em pentatonic
Am pentatonic
Bm pentatonic

I guess that there is something else we could find for the Db7 (intriguing and could be interesting between the Dm7 and the Cmaj7). I'll play around with this and will come back... if I find something interesting :smile:


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## GuyB (May 2, 2008)

No problem with what you said Paul. And I did'nt want to make it complicated : just putting everything down on paper !

If you read well, I said : "Here is a choice". Which means that, in theory, all these scales are O.K. if you take them individualy for each chord BUT, as you said, it's the chord progression that matters so that it's not each one of them that will "fit" properly in this progression. But then again... it could very well be something else then what you suggest.

BTW, did I missed something ? You write : "Dmin7 - G7 is another ii-V progression, so again it's Dorian-Mixolydian. "

Where is that G7 in you example ??


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Am I the only one that doesn't understand this at all? 
It reminds me of those secret agent numbers radio stations you stumble across on shortwave from time to time...


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

devnulljp said:


> Am I the only one that doesn't understand this at all?
> It reminds me of those secret agent numbers radio stations you stumble across on shortwave from time to time...


Its only making somewhat sense to me because I'm starting to study this but beleive me the conversation has still left me in the dust. I know if I keep at it (and I can be somewhat of an obsessed workaholic when I set my mind to learning something) it will soon make more sense. Right now I'm just happy that I know what the modes are now. Its asking a bit too much right now to know where to use them. Alot of them I've been using all along and just didn't know what they were.


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## wkriski (Nov 18, 2008)

*even simpler*

You can simplify it even further if you consider the whole progression to be in the key of C. Focus on the chord tones in each chord.

Some consider it a series of ii-V's like ii-V in D then ii-V-i in C. The point is the chord tones will be the same no matter how you analyze it, it's the non-chord tones that are up for debate. Whether you play F# for first two chords, and whether you play c# over first bar (and 2nd bar either way since it's A7).

If you want an explanation, you can take the likely original progression which is I-vi-ii-V-I, sub in the Em7 for first Cmajor7 chord (a common sub of iii), change the vi to VI7 (common again), sub in Db7 for G7 (tritone sub). So the whole thing is in key of C, but alter notes for Db7 chord. This would mean you would play an F (from key of C) rather than F# (from key of D) over the first two chords. But then you have to switch to playing F over ii-V-I in C. So the result is you either play F# then switch to F or play F the whole time.

It can be considered iii-vi-ii-V-I with the vi changed to dominant and the V7 changed to Db7 (tritone sub).

To me the useful aspect of modes is only so you can communicate when talking to another person which intervals you are talking about. Not so much for practicing them.


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## wkriski (Nov 18, 2008)

*we agree*

I was just trying to answer the original question, but I'm glad to see we agree.


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## wkriski (Nov 18, 2008)

*Scales shoudn't consume majority of practicing*

Scales/modes can improve technique but so can many other exercises. Practicing them should NOT be a major percentage of the daily practice routine. They will not naturally lead to being able to improvise over changes. I practiced modes and scales every day for 2 years and many other pointless exercises that did NOT help me improvise over jazz changes. I already had great technique but it didn't matter when you can't make a good line. 

Practicing scales in excess has also led to the plethora of boring scalar solos that most guitarists play. Teachers who emphasize scales don't really understand that other than helping technique they don't help very much. And Jimmy Bruno, a jazz great that I think we can all agree on, does NOT teach scales and modes. So I'll take my cues from someone who knows what they are doing.

Of course you also need to know where a chord is within a chord progression. It is really important to know how the chord functions.

I think the dead horse is officially beaten now, but maybe not...


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Paul, loosen your bow tie a bit Seriously man, do you teach? Sounds like you should. :food-smiley-004:


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