# Bad Employer Issues



## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

.


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

Is this where monkey wrenches get involved. Specially with the cell phone guy. Theys douches bags sound like they shouldn't be doing business in the first place.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I wouldn't bother with the lawyers. Just start getting jobs with reputable employers that pay a regular wage - not at the end of a job, or whatever it is they tell you.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2013)

My brother-in-law does tin work around Ottawa and he's been screwed out of pay more times than I can count. Similar situations to yours Mike. You need an enforcement arm of a gang to help deal with the shady contractor/sub-contractor shit that goes on in the construction industry.


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

iaresee said:


> My brother-in-law does tin work around Ottawa and he's been screwed out of pay more times than I can count. Similar situations to yours Mike. You need an enforcement arm of a gang to help deal with the shady contractor/sub-contractor shit that goes on in the construction industry.


Hey, I think I read a book about bikers in Ontario doing this very thing!


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

ive heard stories of people having problems here but i haven't had those particular ones yet. for a while i had trouble with rbc cashing my paychecks because they distrust contractors.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I have a nephew with this very same problem. He works for a Shell gas station. The manager is of mid east descent. I don't know what that has to do with the story but maybe he has no conscience ripping off people not of his race, I don't know. Every pay day for all 6 of the employees at the gas station he with holds close to half of every ones pay. On their pay stub its in a column that just states with held. When anyone asks he just states that the till was short and he takes it back out of the cheque. I just found out that this has been going on for a year. My nephew is somewhat of an introvert and is very easily taken advantage of. My sister just made me aware of this and I'm very upset about it. How can people do this. My sister is guiding my nephew through the ministry of labour process now, but now that I see this post it doesn't make me feel very confident that they will do anything about it. Right now these employees of Shell never even make minimum wage.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> I have a nephew with this very same problem. He works for a Shell gas station. The manager is of mid east descent. I don't know what that has to do with the story but maybe he has no conscience ripping off people not of his race, I don't know.


You're correct, I'm sure his being of Middle Eastern descent has nothing to do with it and was probably not worth noting at all. People with no conscience rip off others indiscriminately. People of their own race, people of other races, and old ladies.


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## Intrepid (Oct 9, 2008)

Mike, You don't need a lawyer. Go to Small Claims Court. You can claim up to $25,000.00 in Ontario and your employer has to show up. A major inconvenience for him and the Judges are pretty relaxed on rules of evidence and procedure in that Court.


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## Guest (Jun 17, 2013)

mike_oxbig said:


> Guy has about 700$ worth of my tools ..


Would this not be considered theft? Call the police.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Maybe you need to brush up on your interview skills. Start asking the employer for references and such. sigiifa


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## OldGuitarPlayer (Feb 25, 2013)

If he indeed has $700 worth of your tools and you can prove ownership of them then you need to call the police immediately if not sooner. As for the wages he owes you I think it'd be best to discuss it with a lawyer.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Small-scale employers can be a bit like small-time landlords. You know, the type that have enough money to pay for their own house and the minimum mortgage payments on the rental property, but not enough to actually tend to the _upkeep_ of the rental property. They're the type that end up saying "Well, if you don't like it here, you can move" to an endless succession of tenants.

My dad was a small-time businessman, with a machine shop. Didn't have a covetous bone in his body, and there were numerous times when employees got paid, but he didn't. He went bankrupt a few times, always with more money owed to him than he owed to creditors. Not to mention the time he was in traction in hospital for several months, while an employee was busy racking up hundreds of dollars of parking tickets with the "company truck" (that WE would be on the hook for) and stealing tools, before he skipped town.

Some small employers approach things the other way: "If _anyone's_ gonna get paid from this, or come out ahead, it *better* be me". They remain small-time employers, often because they don't plan anything out beyond what pops into their head at the moment, and what pops into their head can be acts of stupid obstinate desperation.

Having met and chatted with Mike, this bugs me more than if he were simply a faceless handle; a lovely guy anybody here would be happy to share a drink with. But having said that, I don't know what advice to offer with respect to being fairly compensated for past work and equipment, other than making a point of either being one's own employer (risky in other ways), or working for an employer large enough to factor reputation into its dealings (which many a small employer does not always concern itself with).


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

Ok having been through a similar situation the MOL doesnt do shit, police are not much better.
I worked for a kitchen cabinet company who was eventually arrested for fraud(its been in the local paper) released and started doing it again, re-arrested in febuary with no bail. 

Got to file a small claims notice and serve them in person (feels good knowing they'll have to stare down a judge). Costs around $80.
You've been screwed pretty heavily and you;re about to get screwed again. I'd be breaking kneecaps, slashing tires of company vehicles and dont forget the sugar in the gas tank! 

Go to buddy's house and get your tools. Bring some buddies and crowbars, bats whatever. I've seen for than a few cars destroyed.

Edit: forgot to mention police eventually took them down. Its seems screwing over your employees doesnt get teh police off their ass but when they start defrauding the general public they start to take notice.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

hardasmum said:


> You're correct, I'm sure his being of Middle Eastern descent has nothing to do with it and was probably not worth noting at all. People with no conscience rip off others indiscriminately. People of their own race, people of other races, and old ladies.


I think his race is of note in this case because there aren't laws and protections where he comes from so therefor he is doing what he would do in his own country.

I'd have that guy up against it in any manner that was legal if that were me or my family member.

On the other hand...I worked for an oil rig service company in Saskatchewan back in the late '90s and after a 12 hour day I remember the tool push saying "that's 6 and a half hours on the books". That F'er was a multi-generational Canadian and he was fing us all.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

smorgdonkey said:


> hardasmum said:
> 
> 
> > You're correct, I'm sure his being of Middle Eastern descent has nothing to do with it and was probably not worth noting at all. People with no conscience rip off others indiscriminately. People of their own race, people of other races, and old ladies.
> ...


For all we know he's Canadian born and just of "Middle Eastern descent". 

That's a pretty broad statement to make about countries in the Middle East. They probably all ride camels in the desert and train to be terrorists too.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

hardasmum said:


> They probably all ride camels in the desert and train to be terrorists too.


well, duh! we learned that from toby keith 10 yrs ago.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> hardasmum said:
> 
> 
> > They probably all ride camels in the desert and train to be terrorists too.
> ...


I had to Google Toby Keith to see who he was.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

hardasmum said:


> For all we know he's Canadian born and just of "Middle Eastern descent".
> 
> That's a pretty broad statement to make about countries in the Middle East. They probably all ride camels in the desert and train to be terrorists too.


I agree with the above. I'm a Canadian of middle-eastern decent. I am also a business owner. I also take offense to that initial stupid comment. Contractors across the board are dicks. I had two white guys f'me over while working on my place - but I don't say it's a white thing. It's a greed thing.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

Although the thought of physical vengeance is fun to fantasize about, I don't plan on putting myself in a situation to be made into the bad guy. That's what happened with the cell phone incident and look how far it got me. I've contacted his contractors, because he mainly subcontracts and losing that revenue would cripple him. A little pressure from above should get the ball rolling, but if it doesn't, small courts it is. I've also contacted the other guys that didn't get paid and they're a little less against the physical vengeance idea. I'm lucky to be one of the few in the industry that manages to have money between paycheques. These guys apparently aren't. 

The silver lining is I started a new job today with one of the most reputable companies in the city. I specifically called them because they were so well known. Today was my first day at work and they offered me 2 bucks an hour more than douchy mcdoucherson.

As for the tools, I'll get them back or i'll add it to the small claims. I dont need anything of my own with the company i started with anyways. I'm not especially worried about him keeping the tools...i mean i know where he lives...and that's something the cops will help me with immediately if i call them. tools are easier to reclaim than wages.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

hardasmum said:


> I had to Google Toby Keith to see who he was.


That's encouraging.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

How is it that he HAD $ 700 of your tools? I contracted for years. Last year I took a job with a guy. Though he doesn't treat me like Mr douche bag treats you .. my tools come home with me .. every night. No different than when I was contracting on a job with several trades.

I do feel bad for you ... you are just trying to do an honest day's work for an honest day's pay.


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

smorgdonkey said:


> On the other hand...I worked for an oil rig service company in Saskatchewan back in the late '90s and after a 12 hour day I remember the tool push saying "that's 6 and a half hours on the books". That F'er was a multi-generational Canadian and he was fing us all.


Did this happen to be in the Carlyle/Estevan area?


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> I have a nephew with this very same problem. He works for a Shell gas station. The manager is of mid east descent. I don't know what that has to do with the story but maybe he has no conscience ripping off people not of his race, I don't know. Every pay day for all 6 of the employees at the gas station he with holds close to half of every ones pay. On their pay stub its in a column that just states with held. When anyone asks he just states that the till was short and he takes it back out of the cheque. I just found out that this has been going on for a year. My nephew is somewhat of an introvert and is very easily taken advantage of. My sister just made me aware of this and I'm very upset about it. How can people do this. My sister is guiding my nephew through the ministry of labour process now, but now that I see this post it doesn't make me feel very confident that they will do anything about it. Right now these employees of Shell never even make minimum wage.


Wow,,,a statement like that on TGP would get you banned.

CT.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

I woke him up this morning (with a phone call from a blocked number) and made arrangements to meet him at his house after I was done work. After work I get to his house and he's not home. I waited for 2 hours (made it pretty far in angrybirds) and he didn't show up.

I wrote a note telling him that if my tools weren't returned tomorrow I would come back with the police (he's a coke head so i figured that would freak him out) and if I wasn't paid tomorrow I'd file a lawsuit the same day, as well as send an anonymous tip to WSIB about unsafe work conditions on every job he does. (I'm friends with the company he buys his materials from, they'll tell me where he's working every day if i ask them) Then I folded the note neatly and nailed it to his door. Got a phone call within the hour. He's dropping everything off at my work site tomorrow. So he says. If he doesn't, he knows what will happen. I'm actually a really nice guy almost always but i'm done with finishing last because of it.



shoretyus said:


> How is it that he HAD $ 700 of your tools?


He has an enclosed utility trailer that's safer and more weather proof than the back of my truck. I left the basic tools i use every day in it because I trusted the guy. He was once a really reliable, good person. As hard as i'm trying to be mad i mostly just feel bad for the idiot. He's lost 3 crews worth of good employees and 3 out of his 4 main contractors have fired him in the last 3 months. He needs rehab.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

Got paid, got my stuff back

sad that i had to use threats to get what was mine, but all in all things could have ended worse.

New company is great. The most professional crew i've ever been on. Much happier with these guys.

I guess all's well that ends well.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

WTG, I guess you handled it OK then!


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mike_oxbig said:


> Got paid, got my stuff back
> 
> sad that i had to use threats to get what was mine, but all in all things could have ended worse.
> 
> ...


Great news!! Congrats on all fronts!

Cheers

Dave


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Awright,Mike!


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Good for you Mike, that was a crappy situation to be put into, glad it worked out!


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Yeah!!!damn drugs...



sulphur said:


> Good for you Mike, that was a crappy situation to be put into, glad it worked out!


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

hardasmum said:


> For all we know he's Canadian born and just of "Middle Eastern descent".
> 
> That's a pretty broad statement to make about countries in the Middle East. They probably all ride camels in the desert and train to be terrorists too.


It was indeed a broad statement but a Saudi can drown his daughter in front of 200 guests because 'she shamed the family name' and not have legal ramifications...I'm not going to go country by country but there are a lot of F'd up cultures there. Any place in which gender is a factor in a person's worth is F'd.

So...my apologies to anyone who doesn't fit in that category and comes from anywhere like that - and welcome to Canada.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

dcole said:


> Did this happen to be in the Carlyle/Estevan area?


It was Kindersley. Maybe they didn't operate like that on a consistent basis but that's what I saw and I don't do that for very long.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

smorgdonkey said:


> hardasmum said:
> 
> 
> > For all we know he's Canadian born and just of "Middle Eastern descent".
> ...


And pedophiles and serial killers always seem to be white guys. Weird.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

the three things that bring the people who like to argue out of the woodwork are religion, skin colour and whether or not gibsons are worth the money. you guys need thicker skin (of any colour).

Anyways thanks for the feedback from all of you, it's nice to have somewhere to vent.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

mike_oxbig said:


> the three things that bring the people who like to argue out of the woodwork are religion, skin colour and whether or not gibsons are worth the money. you guys need thicker skin (of any colour).
> 
> Anyways thanks for the feedback from all of you, it's nice to have somewhere to vent.


I'm glad things worked out for you, I'm sorry if your thread got hijacked but I think it's sad that you suggest someone should grow thicker skin to ignore racist comments.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

is it racist to suggest someone else is being racist? no not really. if he had implied that middle eastern people in general only care about their own i'd fully agree, that would be some ignorant shit. as someone who's worked on french crews and been treated like an outsider for being english, I can say for sure that that kind of cultural favouritism does exist. while it's a sad thing to have to suspect and surely a delicate matter to accuse someone of, it's not completely out of left field.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

hardasmum said:


> And pedophiles and serial killers always seem to be white guys. Weird.


I searched the thread to see where we were discussing pedophiles and serial killers but I couldn't find it. Weird.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

smorgdonkey said:


> hardasmum said:
> 
> 
> > And pedophiles and serial killers always seem to be white guys. Weird.
> ...


During your search did you find where we were discussing people from the Middle East? You seem to be okay with that random reference.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Listen, no one should ever generalize when it comes to race.

It's not about thick skin. It really feels strange to have someone talk about your nationality in a bad way when you know you're a good person and you care about your family. 

Are you white or Italian oxbig? Just curious. 

The pedophile comment is certainly relevant. 

$0.02


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

hardasmum said:


> And pedophiles and serial killers always seem to be white guys. Weird.


Sorry my comment angered you. It seems that even a mention of a different culture brings out the ones looking for an argument. Not even sure why I mentioned the race of the persons race as it had nothing to do with the subject at hand.
I guess you decided that it called for an equalizer comment slur against white people. Not that I take offence being of Native ancestry, so I guess I'd be more known for welfare and excessive drinking.
As for white guy serial killers, over here in North America it only takes 2 killings to be considered a serial killer. In many other countries that would be considered a half a days killings. And for the pedophiles, the ones with money visit other countries where its a little more accepted. But I guess I won't mention where in case someone on this forum is from one of those countries.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

hardasmum said:


> During your search did you find where we were discussing people from the Middle East? You seem to be okay with that random reference.


You see it your way and I'll leave that with you.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

smorgdonkey said:


> hardasmum said:
> 
> 
> > During your search did you find where we were discussing people from the Middle East? You seem to be okay with that random reference.
> ...


Everyone has an opinion but few are willing to defend it in a rational and intelligent manner.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

adcandour said:


> Listen, no one should ever generalize when it comes to race.
> 
> It's not about thick skin. It really feels strange to have someone talk about your nationality in a bad way when you know you're a good person and you care about your family.
> 
> ...


Are you trolling right now? I think you're trolling. lets just go over a few things.

1) "Middle Eastern" is not a nationality. In fact there are over 30 countries with inhabitants that speak close to 20 different languages, and practice something like 10 different religions all within the "middle east". Are you offended because he generalized "middle easterners" as a single race, or because you think he generalized middle easterners as people who give preferential treatment to "their own kind"? I feel like it's because you yourself wouldn't do something like what the shell manager is suspected of doing, but instead saying so you come up with "i care about my family" which doesn't really debunk the offensive statement if you think about it.

2) If i had to be either "white" or "italian" i guess i would have to go with white, although that still doesn't specifically pinpoint my nationality or heritage any more than "middle eastern" pinpoints yours. You could make a rude reference to whites while excluding italians and i still wouldn't be offended because there's still a very small chance that i'm the type of "white" you're referring to.

3) The "middle eastern" bit was only mentioned as part of a story and not just thrown in there for spite. And even so, he didn't generalize people from the middle east, he accused a middle eastern individual of cultural favouritism. The pedophile comment is over the top and irrelevant other than to troll with, as hardasmum likes to do every chance he gets. he's probably the most easily butt-hurt person on the site, so you'll have to excuse me if i'm the only one that's noticed and doesn't take him seriously anymore.

So yeah, it is about having thick skin. the shots weren't fired at you and the only way they'll hit you is if you jump in the way like you're doing now.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

mike_oxbig said:


> Are you trolling right now? I think you're trolling. lets just go over a few things.
> 
> 1) "Middle Eastern" is not a nationality. In fact there are over 30 countries with inhabitants that speak close to 20 different languages, and practice something like 10 different religions all within the "middle east". Are you offended because he generalized "middle easterners" as a single race, or because you think he generalized middle easterners as people who give preferential treatment to "their own kind"? I feel like it's because you yourself wouldn't do something like what the shell manager is suspected of doing, but instead saying so you come up with "i care about my family" which doesn't really debunk the offensive statement if you think about it.
> 
> ...


It's called Soft Racism Mike. You don't have to be a right wing skin head shouting "***********" slogans to perpetuate cultural, sexual or racial stereotypes or even hatred. It's a little old granny using the less offensive "N-word", a father calling someone "a f*ggot" in front of his kids or a guitar forum member posting provocative photos of women posing with guitars.

It's not overt and appears innocent as it seemingly goes "undetected" in general conversation but once you tune in you'll cringe every time you come across it in the workplace, on television or on an internet forum.

Soft Racism is passed down from generation to generation and is often laughed off as "just a little joke, I'm not really racist!" but this is what fuels comments like the "Middle Eastern" one or the thread from last year about the "Asian guitar player buying an expensive guitar". In most cases it's unnecessary to mention someone's ethnicity or sexuality in such stories. 

They are blanket statements based on one person's opinion or their cultural bias and not based on actual fact. 

This is why my comment about white pedophiles and serial killers was intended to be over the top. It's absurd but no more absurd a comment than the one about the Gas station owner.

Mhammer could elaborate on this theory, the idea that because I recall serial killers in the news being white than by default all serial killers must be white.

Here's the good news though, you have an opportunity to break the cycle right now!! 

According to you Mike I am trolling whenever my opinion differs from yours. You get defensive, aggressive and insulting to myself or whoever else may think differently than you. It seems your way to win an argument is to yell the loudest and you often contradict yourself in the process.

I seem to be making more enemies than friends here lately and I'm obviously talking to a brick wall because only a handful of forum members are brave enough or can see clearly enough to call a spade a spade.

Mike if you want to keep this forum an "old white boys' club" then so be it. Hang on to the past and I'll keep moving forward.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

mike_oxbig said:


> Got paid, got my stuff back
> 
> sad that i had to use threats to get what was mine, but all in all things could have ended worse.
> 
> ...


I'm a little late to the party Mike but I'm glad you got paid and got your stuff back. I'll catch up on the latest posts when I get a few minutes after supper.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

mike_oxbig said:


> Are you trolling right now? I think you're trolling. lets just go over a few things.
> 
> 1) "Middle Eastern" is not a nationality. In fact there are over 30 countries with inhabitants that speak close to 20 different languages, and practice something like 10 different religions all within the "middle east". Are you offended because he generalized "middle easterners" as a single race, or because you think he generalized middle easterners as people who give preferential treatment to "their own kind"? I feel like it's because you yourself wouldn't do something like what the shell manager is suspected of doing, but instead saying so you come up with "i care about my family" which doesn't really debunk the offensive statement if you think about it.
> 
> ...


Nah, not trolling. Just typing. My comments are no higher on the troll scale than yours. 

Ok, nationality was a poor word choice, but I don't want to hear your wiki definition of what the Middle East is either. There's certainly more to it. 

I'm offended at the whole mention of the Middle East. That whole part. All of it. And the "maybe" bit to his comment is fantastical. 

Part of a story??? Holy cow. 

Simply by your comments, I know you're the kind of white I'm referring to. 

Thanks for your last comment. That's where you truly shine. I'll have to remember to jump out of the way of racist comments. I wouldn't want to tear my soft arabicky skin for no reason.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

lol now who's the racist. there goes your offended victim cred.

I didn't say jump out of the way, I said don't jump into the way of.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

mike_oxbig said:


> lol now who's the racist. there goes your offended victim cred.
> 
> I didn't say jump out of the way, I said don't jump into the way of.


Me. I'm the racist now. Are we done?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

hardasmum said:


> It's called Soft Racism Mike. You don't have to be a right wing skin head shouting "***********" slogans to perpetuate cultural, sexual or racial stereotypes or even hatred. It's a little old granny using the less offensive "N-word", a father calling someone "a f*ggot" in front of his kids or a guitar forum member posting provocative photos of women posing with guitars.
> 
> It's not overt and appears innocent as it seemingly goes "undetected" in general conversation but once you tune in you'll cringe every time you come across it in the workplace, on television or on an internet forum.
> 
> ...


I'm willing to bet if we followed you around 24X7 that we'd find something you say that we could twist in to "soft racism", "racism lite", "casual racism", "weekend warrior racist", "potential racist", whatever term fits your fancy. Of course we know you'd deny it. I find those who profess the highest morals maybe have the most to hide. To a point we all have a little racism in us. No one is completely clean of it. Where it gets to the point of hate for another race is where it becomes dangerous and disdainful. 
In my recounting of my story about the gas station manager that was ripping off my nephew, yes it was probably unnecessary for me to mention race as I did state. I don't have a hate to middle eastern immigrants. Hell I don't even hate this guy as a person as I don't know him. I should not mention race when recounting any stories, not because its wrong to do so, but because militants will come running from the woodwork to cry foul. Because they are watching our every move and our word. Cause white guys are all racist didn't you know? And although I'm a half breed indian I'm still half white. 
And I really take offense to the phrase that you used "Call a spade a spade" when talking about racist remarks. Was there some kind of hidden meaning there? I need to ask because apparently we have to analyze every word we say in order to eradicate our society of all types of racism. Be it soft, lite, occasional or just during happy hour.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> I'm willing to bet if we followed you around 24X7 that we'd find something you say that we could twist in to "soft racism", "racism lite", "casual racism", "weekend warrior racist", "potential racist", whatever term fits your fancy. Of course we know you'd deny it.


I'd probably feel more nervous at Caribana than I would at Pride if that's what you mean, but I'm willing to take a look in the mirror and ask myself why I would feel like that. 

I never "professed" I was perfect but I'm trying damn hard to be a good person and treat others with dignity and respect. I'm doing it for my boys as much as myself. I hope when they become men they won't judge anyone based on skin colour, sexuality or religion.




guitarman2 said:


> Where it gets to the point of hate for another race is where it becomes dangerous and disdainful.


I disagree. It's all dangerous.




guitarman2 said:


> And I really take offense to the phrase that you used "Call a spade a spade" when talking about racist remarks.


Are you an avid gardener? I don't see why you'd take offence to a shovel.

*"The spade in the expression isn’t the same spade as in the (slur). The first is undoubtedly the digging implement. ....An oddity is that "to call a spade a spade is a mistranslation." The original was a line that the classical Greek writer Plutarch wrote some 2000 years ago about the Macedonians. He intended much the same idea — suggesting that the Macedonians were too crude and unsubtle a people to do anything other than use blunt words — but he used the word skaphe, variously a trough, basin, bowl, or boat. It seems the medieval scholar Erasmus misread it when translating the line into Latin."
*


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

hardasmum said:


> Are you an avid gardener? I don't see why you'd take offence to a shovel.
> 
> *"The spade in the expression isn’t the same spade as in the (slur). The first is undoubtedly the digging implement. ....An oddity is that "to call a spade a spade is a mistranslation." The original was a line that the classical Greek writer Plutarch wrote some 2000 years ago about the Macedonians. He intended much the same idea — suggesting that the Macedonians were too crude and unsubtle a people to do anything other than use blunt words — but he used the word skaphe, variously a trough, basin, bowl, or boat. It seems the medieval scholar Erasmus misread it when translating the line into Latin."
> *


The fact that you would even have to explain your self is just my "over the top" example. When we are diligently looking for it we will certainly find it.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

hardasmum said:


> Everyone has an opinion but few are willing to defend it in a rational and intelligent manner.


...and I am unwilling to waste my time (that I consider valuable enough to do many other things with). The point is that I am not going to get you to see it my way and you aren't going to get me to see it your way.


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