# Finish Checking



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I read the other day that nitro finishes have more tendency to checker. Can any of you experienced with this finish confirm that?


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## krall (Apr 19, 2009)

Yup. All of my vintage Gibsons have checked with age. Some newer ones that were exposed to hot/cold temps too.


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

I did a trade with a guy today that had picked up a 76 LP Custom off of someone that hardly played it. The shape this thing was in was incredible. A couple of finish cracks but very minor. How old are yours Krall?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

krall said:


> Yup. All of my vintage Gibsons have checked with age. Some newer ones that were exposed to hot/cold temps too.


Yes, that is what I read. Even some of the newer ones. Is that standard for nitro finishes or is it just a Gibson problem?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> .....or is it just a Gibson problem?


We should get to the bottom of this problem. This thread has potential. Don't let me down.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

In time, checking of nitro cellulose lacquer finishes should be expected. That is particularly true of old school lacquers that are low in plasticizers and thus more brittle. Modern lacquers have higher plasticizer content and are more flexible and less prone to checking, but still very much susceptible. As much as you want to trash on Gibson, checking lacquer is not unique to Gibson.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

vadsy said:


> We should get to the bottom of this problem. This thread has potential. Don't let me down.


Nitro checking problem or troll problem ?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Bubb said:


> Nitro checking problem or troll problem ?


I'm sure he means well.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

dradlin said:


> In time, checking of nitro cellulose lacquer finishes should be expected. That is particularly true of old school lacquers that are low in plasticizers and thus more brittle. Modern lacquers have higher plasticizer content and are more flexible and less prone to checking, but still very much susceptible. As much as you want to trash on Gibson, checking lacquer is not unique to Gibson.


Thanks very much for sharing your experience. I didn't think it was just a Gibson problem. You will notice that I did not mention Gibson or any other manufacturer in my OP. What I read was a bit generic but the checking he mentioned was on Gibsons and so I wondered if they had a special nitro mix that was more susceptible to this but that didn't really make sense to me. From what I have read and been told. nitro is nitro. I have also heard of it happening to some high end acoustics.

So, now I have another question. Why do mfrs. still use nitro if it checks so easily? Is it just the old clientele demanding it or something else?


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## 4Aaron GE (Jul 12, 2009)

A lot of it is people wanting things to be done "like they used to be". So they'll pay extra to get things like nitro used instead of poly. This is especially prevalent in Les Paul shaped guitars.

Other people just like the vintage look. Poly just doesn't check like nitro does. So higher end Japanese copies like Navigator will sometimes have a nitro layer over the poly layer. Some of those people will go and try to prematurely cause checking in the finish for uh... mojo.


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## kitkatjoe (Jan 16, 2017)

Yes but I liked the look of it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

How old we talking? My Gibson is a "95" which is 22 years old. No sign of any checker pattern in the Nitro Cellulose at all. I guess older than this, right?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Lola said:


> How old we talking? My Gibson is a "95" which is 22 years old. No sign of any checker pattern in the Nitro Cellulose at all. I guess older than this, right?


The guy who mentioned the Gibsons had new ones under 10 years old that spent 99% of their life in the cases with checking. He also had some 20 years old with checking. Not all were checked but he didn't know why some did and some didn't.



4Aaron GE said:


> Some of those people will go and* try to prematurely cause checking in the finish for uh... mojo.*


I just don't understand that and don't think I ever will.


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## krall (Apr 19, 2009)

I had a 2011 SG Classic that completely checked after bringing it inside a hot club from the cold vehicle (it was about -25 C) and it checked right in front of our eyes as we soundchecked. If you looked at it today you'd think it was made in the late 60's. I like it..Has a cool vintage look for a newer instrument.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe nitro is a thinner finish than poly, allowing the guitar to be a little bit more resonant.


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## krall (Apr 19, 2009)

Budda said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe nitro is a thinner finish than poly, allowing the guitar to be a little bit more resonant.


Yes.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I think you meant 'check'? 

My Monty has started to check unexpectedly at only two years old. I told Brian to keep it from looking all new and shiny, and this is a side effect, but I don't mind at all.

One thing I noticed with a thin nitro finish is that it doesn't take much to get to the wood. I was using an abnormally large pick not too long ago and unknowingly chipped through it. I can see or feel myself doing it, but it happens. I've changed picks and want to repair it now.


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## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

I've noticed that pretty much every Monty that I've come across has finish checking. At least all the gloss finish, high end models like the Bluesmaster and Swingbilly. It's his thing I presume. All the guitars that he brought to the guitar show here last year had checking. My Bluesbaby has has satin finish, I wonder if it will check?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Opposite of Chuck, I bought a satin finish guitar because I want to see honest wear haha.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Budda said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe nitro is a thinner finish than poly, allowing the guitar to be a little bit more resonant.





krall said:


> Yes.


Really? Doesn't it more depend on how thick the finish is applied by the manufacturer? I have seen some very thin poly finishes and those guitars resonate nicely. My Gretsch has a poly finish and it doesn't look any thicker than the nitro on my Les Paul.


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

..........from the Gibson Owners Manual in regards to rapid change of temp.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Even poly will take a beating in extreme weather.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Bubb said:


> Nitro checking problem or troll problem ?





vadsy said:


> I'm sure he means well.


So if you've decided to respond to a thread by being disrespectful, doesn't that make you the troll??


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

I saw Finish Checking and I though it was about hockey


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Lola said:


> How old we talking? My Gibson is a "95" which is 22 years old. No sign of any checker pattern in the Nitro Cellulose at all. I guess older than this, right?


Unless abused (as mentioned above lots of hot/cold extremes and also sunlight exposure),based on my Gibsons, I'd say expect finish checking on anythinging 1979 or older at this point. Early 80s ones will be showing the signs of it starting (though my Sonex is surprisingly still very clean).



Steadfastly said:


> Yes, that is what I read. Even some of the newer ones. Is that standard for nitro finishes or is it just a Gibson problem?


At this point, mostly yes (only because Fender and most other major brands don't use Nitro anymore - some smaller/nichier/boutique brands still do; other brands, such as Gretsch, use Nitro on some higher end models and Poly on others), but:












jdto said:


> Really? Doesn't it more depend on how thick the finish is applied by the manufacturer? I have seen some very thin poly finishes and those guitars resonate nicely. My Gretsch has a poly finish and it doesn't look any thicker than the nitro on my Les Paul.


Correct (but nitro tends to be thinner; poly is more viscous, depending on the preparation I suppose). Also, the impact of guitar finish on tone is greatly overblown when it comes to solidbody electrics (finish has negligible impact on electric tone). Acoustics and semis that you will actually play acoustically are another matter.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

LanceT said:


> So if you've decided to respond to a thread by being disrespectful, doesn't that make you the troll??


I'd appreciate if you stopped trying to be a third wheel to Steadly and I. It's a special relationship, no room for you.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

ZeroGravity said:


> I saw Finish Checking and I though it was about hockey


Always finish your check. Always.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

jdto said:


> Always finish your check. Always.


Thanks Grapes for the advice


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

vadsy said:


> I'd appreciate if you stopped trying to be a third wheel to Steadly and I. It's a special relationship, no room for you.



You have it all wrong, I'm not the third wheel, I'm the steering wheel as in trying to steer you to enlightenment.

Also you can't say you're in a relationship unless it's reciprocated - all your advances are being ignored...*hint*


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

LanceT said:


> You have it all wrong, I'm not the third wheel, I'm the steering wheel as in trying to steer you to enlightenment.
> 
> Also you can't say you're in a relationship unless it's reciprocated - all your advances are being ignored...*hint*



I can't quite put my finger on it but I'm getting a strong high guidance counsellor vibe from you. Maybe you want to be the hero and save the online world because the school board is pushing the online bullying agenda pretty hard these days, possibly even while a student sits in front of you being ignored. Get back to work! Maybe you're retired and you wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat because that one time a student got away from you no matter how hard you tried to steer them in the right direction, you did enough but you feel like you could have always done better. Now you wander the online wasteland of forums like David Carradine looking to save as many damsels as you can. Safe journeys my friend!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

fretzel said:


> ..........from the Gibson Owners Manual in regards to rapid change of temp.


Well, at least they tell you this up front. 

Thanks for posting this, Fretzel.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2017)

vadsy said:


> Maybe you want to be the hero and save the online world ..


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

vadsy said:


> I can't quite put my finger on it but I'm getting a strong high guidance counsellor vibe from you. Maybe you want to be the hero and save the online world because the school board is pushing the online bullying agenda pretty hard these days, possibly even while a student sits in front of you being ignored. Get back to work! Maybe you're retired and you wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat because that one time a student got away from you no matter how hard you tried to steer them in the right direction, you did enough but you feel like you could have always done better. Now you wander the online wasteland of forums like David Carradine looking to save as many damsels as you can. Safe journeys my friend!


Here's the thing - you're a pretty funny guy and contribute to some meaningful and useful discussion, I do find on occasion that you like to be a prick at other people's expense.
You end up derailing threads with your antics and BS and making the discussions taking place kind of worthless and not very enjoyable to read. And it would appear everything Mr. Steadly has to say is the brunt of your jokes. I don't have any particular regard for the guy and sometimes he says some pretty inscrutable things but pretty much every time he has something to say you feel the need to call him down.
Maybe you were picked on in at some point of your life and now can retaliate at the cold, cruel world safely behind a computer screen. I'm sure I'm not far wrong.
The primary reason for this forum is to share information and have useful discussions on gear, etc. I don't see any posting area with the title of Be A Dick To Other Forum Members.
You can ask the forum admin if they would add this area for you and maybe that would be a good idea then you can post away and rail back at the world.
You could maybe even start a thread looking for guidance from the other forum members on how best to handle yourself. You did mention counselling.
You know, you could even add a poll with options on how you should treat other people and if being a dick 100% of the time is a good idea or if maybe scaling this part back would be better.
I'll leave all the details to you.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

LanceT said:


> Here's the thing - you're a pretty funny guy and contribute to some meaningful and useful discussion, I do find on occasion that you like to be a prick at other people's expense.
> You end up derailing threads with your antics and BS and making the discussions taking place kind of worthless and not very enjoyable to read. And it would appear everything Mr. Steadly has to say is the brunt of your jokes. I don't have any particular regard for the guy and sometimes he says some pretty inscrutable things but pretty much every time he has something to say you feel the need to call him down.
> Maybe you were picked on in at some point of your life and now can retaliate at the cold, cruel world safely behind a computer screen. I'm sure I'm not far wrong.
> The primary reason for this forum is to share information and have useful discussions on gear, etc. I don't see any posting area with the title of Be A Dick To Other Forum Members.
> ...


You get me.... you really do. Hug?


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

@ Granny Gremlin, Fender still uses nitro. Some (very few) MIM's are still nitro, and a lot of MIA's are still nitro.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

My 59 Gibson J45, and 98 Gibson L4 CES, also my 74 Martin D28 all have checking, the Martin has a slightly different pattern than the Gibson's to the surface checking all the other guitars are clear.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

fredyfreeloader said:


> My 59 Gibson J45, and 98 Gibson L4 CES, also my 74 Martin D28 all have checking, the Martin has a slightly different pattern than the Gibson's to the surface checking all the other guitars are clear.


Fredy, if the checking is bothering you on any of those guitars, I would go out of my way and even pay the shipping from your place to mine to relieve you of any burden they may be causing you. You could likely even convince me to pay for shipping and the packing expense on all three.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

knight_yyz said:


> @ Granny Gremlin, Fender still uses nitro. Some (very few) MIM's are still nitro, and a lot of MIA's are still nitro.


I stand corrected - in the same category as Gretsch then; mostly Poly but Nitro in special cases (but isn't use of Nitro now illegal in Ca where the American factory is?).


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## Rideski (Feb 25, 2009)

My '71 Gibson Les Paul gold top has barely started to check at all and it's 45 yrs old, while my 2010 Roadworn Fender Strat is checking nicely. Both nitro finishes both exposed to the same environment. The GT has quite a bit of road wear so I'm surprised it isn't covered in checking by now.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Rideski said:


> My '71 Gibson Les Paul gold top has barely started to check at all and it's 45 yrs old, while my 2010 Roadworn Fender Strat is checking nicely. Both nitro finishes both exposed to the same environment. The GT has quite a bit of road wear so I'm surprised it isn't covered in checking by now.


That's what I found and find intriguing. Why does it happen to some guitars and not the others? You would think someone would have figured it out by now, would you?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> That's what I found and find intriguing. Why does it happen to some guitars and not the others? You would think someone would have figured it out by now, would you?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Granny Gremlin said:


> I stand corrected - in the same category as Gretsch then; mostly Poly but Nitro in special cases (but isn't use of Nitro now illegal in Ca where the American factory is?).


By American factory, I guess you mean their custom shop. Which I believe is basically Stephen Stern and a very small (half dozen) group of builders. Very low output so I expect if there are regulations they may skirt under it. I couldn't imagine any of those CS guitars have lacquer but I've been surprised before.

IME, the checking isn't so much the guitar's fault (except in cases of extreme age) as the owners. My 77 LPC has very minor checking while my 73 Strat has excessive checking. I played the lester more but I also treated it much better. No one wanted post CBS strats when I bought mine so I treated it like a beater, left it out overnight, hot/cold shifts, dropped it numerous times. I was much more protective of the LPC and except for some buckle-rash on the back, it shows.

I now treat all my gear like that - even the beaters.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

My 83 explorer keep checking like crazy...took a look at it the other day, and it was covered in a light kind of strange dust. After wiping it away, lot and behold checks were all over it. The dust was the by product of the finish checking. It doesn't seem to like winter dryness.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Fredy, if the checking is bothering you on any of those guitars, I would go out of my way and even pay the shipping from your place to mine to relieve you of any burden they may be causing you. You could likely even convince me to pay for shipping and the packing expense on all three.


Let's see the 59 J45 was recently appraised at $6000.00, The 98 L4 CES at $4500.00 and the 74 Martin at $3500.00 for a mere $14,000.00 plus insurance, packaging, shipping and an extra thou or two for my good graces in parting with them, you might be able to get them.
B#(*


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