# Improving my mixes and production



## Guest (Mar 2, 2009)

Sigh. Where to start?

I've been doing the home recording thing for a few years now with generally good results. I'm tracking stuff that sounds good (to my ears at least). I can put together passable stereo mixes. It's a fine for DIY.

But I endeavour to take it to the next level.

I listen careful to the professionally produced music I love. Take my notes. I've got a notebook full of things to try. But it's the wrong approach. It's trying things to try things. Not trying things to improve the state of my art. Ya know?

Maybe listing some of my common problems is a better way to go about this?

Take tracking: I'll usually track a scratch guitar line, a drum line, a bass line, a rhythm track or two, a lead line, perhaps one synth. Beyond that my "producers brain" can't hear the little flourish bits -- the part that's set way in the back that goes beep-beep-beep that you don't notice until your 20th pass on the song and then you're all: cooooooool. Or if I do go beyond my standard tracks I can't mix it. I can't find the sonic space for all of it. It turns to mush. Heck, even some of my bass-drum-rhythm guitar-lead guitar tracks turn to mush -- find the space for everything is a struggle. But a session with 20+ tracks of different instruments in it turns into an information and sonic overload for me when I try to sort it all out.

And there's reverb and the judicious use of it to impart space on everything. I usually set up one aux for reverb and buss everything to it I want to have ambience. Works well enough -- but is that what a great sounding mix does? I don't produce great sounding mixes so I'm suspecting not.

Is there a place where amateurs can get critiqued on their mixes? For example: how could I improve a track like this? That's a dead simple track. But it's all there from start to finish. The production gets a little stale on it after the first intro-verse-chorus rolls by IMO.

What about Mixing With Your Mind? A worth while investment? Will it help me better under stand sonic space? How to place things without clutter? What about depth and dimension? My move to Logic 8 has helped a bit there with it's binaural panning function -- but now there's just one more knob I have to be careful not to abuse. And I fear the lopsided mix -- one that's too left or right -- is that irrational?

I'm so lost I don't even know where to begin really!


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

I'm interested in this as I'd like to improve my own mixes. I know that certain sites like www.homerecording.com or www.garageband.com provide something along these lines ie you supply a song which you have recorded and mixed. Other users then listen and provide feedback/reviews/suggestion etc. However, in a lot of cases, you're getting the feedback from people like yourself ie keen amateurs who want to help, but in a lot of cases don't have the recording/mixing experience to help improve your mixes. 

It sounds like you want to take it to the next level and get feedback from recording pros. Other than reading books and websites, I"m not sure where you'd get that information.


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## Andy (Sep 23, 2007)

Honestly, I think you're being unduly harsh on yourself. I listened to that track the whole way through, and all I could think of was how well the instruments were balanced, how everything had space in the mix, and how it sounded like the song was just played live by a great band in a nice sounding room (good choice going with the one reverb on everything). Honestly, most my CDs -- released by big artists -- don't sound as good. Chill out.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2009)

Aww shucks. Thanks a bunch Andy.

Maybe Chilled wasn't a good example -- that song works well with the played-by-a-band-in-a-room feel. It is, I think, a little dark overall though. And towards the end, where I wanted some Leslie-type motion, I think it just gets nauseating -- not cool.

Maybe this is a better reference point? That's a pretty cluttered mix despite there being only 4 tracks: bass, drums, fuzzy guitar, keys. I tried to EQ the hell out of the bass, keys and guitar so there was less sonic stomping going on, but it's not as clear as it could be.

Or this one -- this one is good. It explains the trouble I have with more layers of instruments. That's a pop-rock track that just screams out for better production. Smaller parts layered up. But I can't get my head around how to map that out and then mix it.

No doubt my mixes get better with time. I'm driven by a desire to learn to do it better though. This thread is less about me being hard on myself and more about me just wanting some helpful critique -- learn from others kind of thing. Where's nkjassen and ssdeluxe??? LOL! (Jebus...did I just type 'LOL'?)


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2009)

bagpipe said:


> I'm interested in this as I'd like to improve my own mixes. I know that certain sites like www.homerecording.com or www.garageband.com provide something along these lines ie you supply a song which you have recorded and mixed. Other users then listen and provide feedback/reviews/suggestion etc. However, in a lot of cases, you're getting the feedback from people like yourself ie keen amateurs who want to help, but in a lot of cases don't have the recording/mixing experience to help improve your mixes.


I've been the garageband.com route with The Apollo Effect and it's pretty pathetic. People critique just to get the credits to submit their songs for the ratings contest. I think maybe 1 in 50 comments we got was remotely helpful. Even then it was remote.

I'd be all for a discussion where you submit a track and people pick apart the mix and production. Dissect better EQ'ing and compression techniques. Panning ideas. That's the stuff where I'm plain vanilla on.



> It sounds like you want to take it to the next level and get feedback from recording pros. Other than reading books and websites, I"m not sure where you'd get that information.


That's it. I'm honestly contemplating taking some vacation and seeing if I can shadow a local studio for a couple of weeks. Fetch coffee in exchange for watching them work.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

LOL you did. 

A little quieter place and not your type of stuff but 

http://www.recordingproject.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=37356&sid=143c6cab0f185acb69660684b6fa671b 

Member Sloop is a buddy of mine in Indiana


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

the best advice i've heard for improving mixes and production is practise .

also, the right equipment helps - it doesnt have to be super expensive equipment, but it has to be of some quality.

This is information i've gotten from a forum buddy who mixes and produces his own stuff. He also does recording for other bands, but i havent heard their stuff.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Yeah Ian, what happened there at 4:20 dude!! It gets all hazy and smoky and starts to sound really GOOD!!

:wave:


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

shoretyus said:


> LOL you did.
> 
> A little quieter place and not your type of stuff but
> 
> ...


That's a great thread. Thanks. I particularly like the screen shots.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

Paul said:


> I think you are not always sure what side of the line you are walking on when it comes to production, engineering, arranging, etc. It's tough to wear all of the hats.


Without a doubt doing the whole thing end-to-end makes it a little harder. Whenever I've employed a mixing engineer and producer the results, while not always what I've expected, have always been better. They certainly add their own artistry to the final product. I'm hoping I can at least approach that level of teamwork in my solo environment. Might be wishful thinking. Certainly I think putting the tracks away for a while and then coming back to them would be cool.




> "Chill" sounds to me like it needs a Vincent Price or Barry White type voice-over.


Yea, I always write with vocals in mind. Janis J. was there in the back of my head, especially at the end. Just isn't going to be singing. That would not be pleasant. :smile:



> I found that tuning is part of what makes a track come alive. Tuning with a Strobo-stomp, or something equally accurate and precise does make a difference compared to a +/- 5 cent tuner. YMMV.


I've been getting by with a TU-2 but a StroboStomp might with worth a shot. On that track the only thing "real" was the guitar -- so everything else is pitch correct.



> Around the 4:20 mark, you try a couple of atonal things that just don't fit the vamp. IMHO, of course.


No sweat. I left that in there, trying not to destroy the 1 take. I was cringing at first every time I swept past that mark, but the more I thought about an overdub the less I wanted to do it.

Still, the build at the end of that song, I find, isn't as big as I want. Someone suggested subtracting keys prior to the vamp and re-introducing them. So there's a less then more going on type thing. That's the sort of stuff you just don't see when you're in the middle of playing it all.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

Paul said:


> ...either a key change or temporary modulation. The typical power ballad "gear shift" is a semi-tone up. You've got a minor key vamp going, so a shift to major could be cool. I'm a fan of atypical key changes. Finding a way to smoothly jump a minor third, or a tri-tone, as well as shifting to a major key......neat things can happen.


A key change is an f'ing sweet idea.


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

One thing about mixing, at least I find this to be the case, is there's a danger of ear fatigue. If you're spending a lot of time on one song make sure you give your ears a break then you can approach the mix with fresh ears again. Another thing I'd like to add, maybe let somebody else in your home listen to the mix and get their input. I've heard what you've done and to me, it sounds quite good but as you say, you want to go up to the next level and that's only natural. Also listen to CDs by other producers that you may like. A producer like Mitchell Froom for example imparts a really nice "airy" kind of sound especially on the work he did with Crowded House. Just a few suggestions. :smile:


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

It's all great advice guys. I posted this thread at GuitarGeek and at TGP so I thought you might be interested here a summary of some of the other stuff that got feed into my Improvement Machine.

shoretyus: that website you pointed me at is great and through it I came across: http://www.harddisklife.com/ -- It's Pro-Tools specific but he goes through, piece by piece, how it mixed a very modern-sounding pop-rock track (kind of Nickelback sounding). Very informative. The actual articles w/clips are here: http://www.harddisklife.com/Pages/Column/ChapterNest.html

A note that got mentioned multiple times is that I shouldn't be bussing all my tracks to the same reverb. You don't need "everything in the room" to give you mixes space. Put the drums in the room. Maybe a little bass. And possibly the piano. Everything else stays dry or gets short, bright reverb applied to (like a nice plate). And the use of high pass filters on reverb to help declutter things got mentioned a few times.

Pan. Hard. Don't be afraid of the unbalanced mix (and I usually am).

For finding the sonic space of each instrument it was suggested to try mixing in mono. If you can hear it all happening in the sonic space in mono first, it's easier then to place it in the stereo field.

There was a good debate on the TGP thread about the solo button. What I took away from it was use solo to find mistakes, peaks, transients you want to fix. But don't abuse solo to make the track sound good on its own. Make it sound good in context and don't sweat if it sounds like junk when solo'ed.

As for reading: Mixing With Your Mind got high praise. And so did Guerrilla Home Recording. I'll probably try and score both of those.

My goal for '09 is take the stuff coming out of the basement studio to the next level. Really learn how to DIY it up right.

A huge THANK YOU to everyone who's chimed in. I'm learning lots.


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## Guest (Mar 3, 2009)

The other thing that came up was a good understanding of the frequency spectrum and where different instrument live. And where different tonal properties occur. I have have some basic understanding of this (air is ~10kHz for example) but a reference chart is handy. To that end, check out:

http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm

That's pretty freaking helpful that is.


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## SkunkWorks (Apr 12, 2007)

With myself I found it just comes with time and having a passion for it to the point of obsession. Spending a LOT of time at the gearslutz forum and weeding out the good info from the bad. You'll get alot of advice on the best way to do things from alot of different people but here's the thing... are those the things that are being done on the commercial albums you reference? When in doubt I go right to the source and contact producers and band members that were responsible for the recordings I reference and have had alot of luck with that and gained alot of valueable knowledge over the years. Sometimes you'll find that all the "rules" were thrown out the door or you might find the exact opposite. For example, with the myriad of mic suggestions you'll find to use on a guitar cabinet, I haven't contacted one single producer or band member for the albums I've been referencing that hadn't used an SM57 (either by itself or blended with some LDC) on the guitar cabs on the album. Some gear choices might sound cliche or boring but there's a reason they became studio staples in the first place... if you can't get those pieces of gear working for you the problem probably isn't the gear. Here's another example... some will give you some pretty wacky ideas of how to ADT (automatic double track) or thicken vocals but nothing really gets as good as plain old singing them twice or tripling them... and that's all that's being done to them on the albums I reference... simple but tried and true technique. You'll get suggestions like panning a kik or snare or bass guitar off to one side and stuff like that... when's the last time you heard that on an album?... there's a reason for that, no?

I'm not saying it's not good to experiment or go outside the box, I'm just saying there's alot of info thrown at you that will not help you get what you're going after, and you somehow have to weed out the good info from the bad which so far has taken me about 4 years of self educating and then trial and error, alot of patience, and an insane amount of time devoted to it... but it's my passion.

A good way to weed stuff out is to listen to examples from the people who are recommending techniques or a piece of gear and then judge for yourself whether you should be listening to them!

I've also spent the past 4 years gradually updraging my entry level instruments and recording gear to pro studio quality stuff.... it does makes a difference but doesn't mean squat if you don't know how to use it... it's not a magic bullet that will make up for bad recording techniques, a bad sounding room or poor performances.

After this 4 year journey it's only been fairly recently that I've been more or less happy with the quality of stuff I've been doing... and I still hit gearslutz on a daily basis to learn more... I've made some rather great gear purchases and gotten the biggest bang for my buck by spending time there. It's now time to sit down and do some serious writing and actually complete something from beginning to end... no more excuses like "I'll finish this song later once I have that compressor I want to buy to use on my bass." (wink).


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2009)

Speaking of forums, one of the TGP posts put me on to a forum called The Womb that is 100% about recording, mixing, mastering, live sound support (okay, and a little hockey too). It's been a very, very good source of new ideas. Check it out here: http://thewombforums.com/


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## SkunkWorks (Apr 12, 2007)

iaresee said:


> Speaking of forums, one of the TGP posts put me on to a forum called The Womb that is 100% about recording, mixing, mastering, live sound support (okay, and a little hockey too). It's been a very, very good source of new ideas. Check it out here: http://thewombforums.com/


Will have to check that place out... not enough hours in the day!


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

iaresee said:


> Speaking of forums, one of the TGP posts put me on to a forum called The Womb that is 100% about recording, mixing, mastering, live sound support (okay, and a little hockey too). It's been a very, very good source of new ideas. Check it out here: http://thewombforums.com/


wow .. the original Mixerman forum .. I forgot about that place. You know about Mixerman? I ran across the original thread when I was going. I got turned into a book. So friggin' funny. 

I got introduced to that place when met a Hamtech buddy, Peter Adams rest is soul, he was doing B3 parts on some Cape projects. I gave me some copies of the projects he was working on. 


I will have to spend yet more time reading and listening ... yikes.


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## SkunkWorks (Apr 12, 2007)

I've been up all night checking this "womb" place out... how have I not stumbled across it before? Trying to figure out if this is a Canadian forum because there seems to be a lot of hints that it might be. And just who exactly are Mixerman, Slipperman and AArdvark? (I am quite familiar with the lengthy slipperman technique for recording dirty guitars... came across it quite some time ago and it gets linked to quite alot in the GS forum.).


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

SkunkWorks said:


> I've been up all night checking this "womb" place out... how have I not stumbled across it before? Trying to figure out if this is a Canadian forum because there seems to be a lot of hints that it might be. And just who exactly are Mixerman, Slipperman and AArdvark? (I am quite familiar with the lengthy slipperman technique for recording dirty guitars... came across it quite some time ago and it gets linked to quite alot in the GS forum.).


I don't know who it is but 

be prepared to be up all night again grab a beer

http://www.mixerman.net/diaries_main.php


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2009)

Yea, that site has been a HUGE well of knowledge.

I don't think it's Canadian -- I think they're from Detroit or thereabouts. One of the main guys may be a Montrealer.

But yea: _killer_ site.


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## SkunkWorks (Apr 12, 2007)

shoretyus said:


> I don't know who it is but
> 
> be prepared to be up all night again grab a beer
> 
> http://www.mixerman.net/diaries_main.php


Yeah looks like it'll be another all nighter 

Thanks for the links, bro!


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