# Kurt Cobain, but not Darrell Abbott?!



## mysweetshadow747

On this site under the "guitar legends" tab, they have some of the world's best listed. However, they also have one of the most debatable included... while leaving out a CRUCIAL guitar force whose life as a player AND a person inspired millions of people. I'm talking of course about Dimebag Darrell Abbott, guitarist for the infamous Pantera. Pantera was, and still is, most likely, the LEADING FORCE in the heavy metal transfer from glam rock to modern metal and Dimebag's playing is probably some of the most soulful and amazing guitar work I've ever heard. It's a real shame that a mediocre guitarist like Kurt Cobain was chosen over this true legend we all knew and loved.

Now before everybody goes nuts on me for calling Kurt Cobain a mediocre guitar player, at least look at the reasoning behind my argument. I'm not saying that Kurt Cobain wasn't insanely influential to the grunge scene or music in general, but in terms of playing ability/talent and rhythmical genius, Dimebag blows almost every modern guitar player out of the water. Is there anybody who backs me up on this?

:rockon2: \m/,


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## GuitarsCanada

I will back you up, in as much as I added all of the guitar legends myself. I would agree a bit on the "guitar talent" comment for Cobain. I also agree that the Dime should be on the list. The latter is my fault as I have just not gotten around to it. But I would agree he belongs on the list.


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## Metal#J#

I hated Dime Bags tone........but you gotta love everything else about him. He was a genius an quite a character. Definately deserves to be on the list.:rockon2:


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## GuitarsCanada

I am way behind in my work on that page. I have not added anyone in a long time. As you say, there are many that could be on there.

http://www.guitarscanada.com/Legends.htm


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## Milkman

Does DIme belong on a list of guitar legends?

Maybe. I would agree that he was technically better than Cobain but as for this statement, "in terms of playing ability/talent and rhythmical genius, Dimebag blows almost every modern guitar player out of the water." I think this is a bit of an exageration.


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## mysweetshadow747

Milkman said:


> Does DIme belong on a list of guitar legends?
> 
> Maybe. I would agree that he was technically better than Cobain but as for this statement, "in terms of playing ability/talent and rhythmical genius, Dimebag blows almost every modern guitar player out of the water." I think this is a bit of an exageration.


I guess it's a matter of opinion, but considering that I've drooled to pretty much every Pantera song there is (minus the glam rock days... not a big fan)... it's just insane how under rated he is to non-metalheads. For example listen to the guitar work on Floods. It just shows how he can go from brutality to utterly beautiful in the same song. I think that kind of diversity in music is very important, especially when you consider the state of metal at the time. It was either horridly fast and there was too much going on to understand, or borderline boring... 

:rockon2:\m/,


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## Milkman

mysweetshadow747 said:


> I guess it's a matter of opinion, but considering that I've drooled to pretty much every Pantera song there is (minus the glam rock days... not a big fan)... it's just insane how under rated he is to non-metalheads. For example listen to the guitar work on Floods. It just shows how he can go from brutality to utterly beautiful in the same song. I think that kind of diversity in music is very important, especially when you consider the state of metal at the time. It was either horridly fast and there was too much going on to understand, or borderline boring...
> 
> :rockon2:\m/,


Well your statement made no reference to Dime blowing away other metal guitarists. Instead you said "almost every modern guitar player".

Don't get me wrong, I think he was good, but not that good. Still, he made his mark.


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## GibsonTay37

mysweetshadow747 said:


> I'm not saying that Kurt Cobain wasn't insanely influential to the grunge scene or music in general, but in terms of playing ability/talent and rhythmical genius, Dimebag blows almost every modern guitar player out of the water. Is there anybody who backs me up on this?
> 
> :rockon2: \m/,


Cobain could only do Power Chords and Terrible Solos, Dimebag can shred and can play more than power chords. As for Grunge Guitarists, here's my list for best guitarist

1. Jerry Cantrell (Alice In Chains)
2. Mike Mccready and Stone Gossard (Pearl Jam
3. Kim Thayil (Soundgarden)
4. Buzz Osbourne (The Melvins)
5. The Guy from Gruntruck
Kurt didn't even make the list


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## marshallman

Dime should definitly be there. That guy's written some of the most memorable metal riffs off all time! (Walk, Cemetary Gates, I'm Broken, etc...):rockon2:


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## violation

The day Darrell died is the day metal died as far as I'm concerned. Testament's new album is alright but meh...


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## fraser

well, the list is 'guitar legends', not ' best guitarists'. although cobain himself would hesitate to call himself a guitarist, he is a legendary guy who played guitar- id venture to say far more legendary than dimebag.(what kinda guy calls hisself dimebag btw?)
i have a few pantera albums, i like them, the playing sounds ok and all, but nothing out of the ordinary- pretty generic heavy metal posturing stuff, pointy guitars n all. 
im a better player than cobain was, but id rather listen to him than dimebag, or a lot of better players really. i prefer to listen to soul rather than skill.


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## Milkman

fraser said:


> i prefer to listen to soul rather than skill.


Me too.

Often you can have both a high level of technical skill and moving music at the same time but emotion is more important to me than chops.


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## geezer

It's all a matter of what you feel in an artists music. I agree with the original 
poster about Dimebag I think his playing was full of emotion and even simple sounding riffs have alot of subtle techniques that you don't really pick up on unless you play them.


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## Diablo

Hmmm...never really got in to Dimebag.
He always came across to me as kind of generic.
But as they say, all those fans cant be wrong. Although I think his down to earth anti-rock star trailer trash attitude is really what endears him to many.


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## devnulljp

Gonna upset some of you, but I didn't know Dimebag was a real player until long after he was dead. I kinda thought he was some generic marketing department's idea of a rad guitar guy -- seemed to be on every other page of every guitar mag I ever picked up grimacing, wearing a pointy guitar, and hocking strings, pedals, plectrums, string lube, amps, toilet paper, brocolli, haemorrhoid cream, more pedals, tshirts, home insurance, timeshares in Puerto Vallarta...
Pantera sound like every other post-Metallica metal band I've ever heard.


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## fraser

devnulljp said:


> Gonna upset some of you, but I didn't know Dimebag was a real player until long after he was dead. I kinda thought he was some generic marketing department's idea of a rad guitar guy -- seemed to be on every other page of every guitar mag I ever picked up grimacing, wearing a pointy guitar, and hocking strings, pedals, plectrums, string lube, amps, toilet paper, brocolli, haemorrhoid cream, more pedals, tshirts, home insurance, timeshares in Puerto Vallarta...
> Pantera sound like every other post-Metallica metal band I've ever heard.


yup generic from the first note i heard him play- when he died i believe i was the only one i knew at the time who had heard of him. i played some stuff fer my bandmates and they declared it crap- not taking anything away from his enthusiasm and dedication- he was just pursuing a generic sound already well travelled-he doesnt turn me on, but that doesnt mean he wasnt good. wasnt he doing a guitar mag thing but as diamond darrel? maybe because dimebag was too dirty for publication? jeezus thats gay.
personally, id rather listen to kurt chugging out his 3 chords and screaming his head off. thats authentic to my ears.


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## devnulljp

Not riffing on the guy, good for him for doing what he loved, it's a shame a combination of that and some guy getting his fluoxetine dose wrong ended it for him. Just not my thing. And the constant hocking of stuff...


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## NB-SK

devnulljp said:


> Gonna upset some of you, but I didn't know Dimebag was a real player until long after he was dead. I kinda thought he was some generic marketing department's idea of a rad guitar guy -- seemed to be on every other page of every guitar mag I ever picked up grimacing, wearing a pointy guitar, and hocking strings, pedals, plectrums, string lube, amps, toilet paper, brocolli, haemorrhoid cream, more pedals, tshirts, home insurance, timeshares in Puerto Vallarta...
> Pantera sound like every other post-Metallica metal band I've ever heard.


Yeah, I remember that happened shortly before or after Vulgar Display of Power came out (I thought that album was very commercial, from the cover to the last note). I guess it's understandable. He was one of the few popular heavy metal guitarists at that time.


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## Apostrophe (')

NB-SK said:


> Yeah, I remember that happened shortly before or after Vulgar Display of Power came out (I thought that album was very commercial, from the cover to the last note). I guess it's understandable. He was one of the few popular heavy metal guitarists at that time.


A Vulgar Display of Digital Power!
http://cgi.ebay.com/KORG-G3-Processor-Dimebag-Darrell-orig-ad-print_W0QQitemZ7209058271QQihZ001QQcategoryZ37839QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## geezer

This discussion about Dimebag been non-original and generic makes me think
that the same could be said for almost every blues guitarist on the planet
only they milk the same old licks that have been around for a hundred years.
I respect some of the more recent blues acts just the same. I agree that some of Pantera's music sounds somewhat generic, but the same can be said for almost any Country , Pop or Rock band on the charts.If you play a certain style
of music your fans expect you to stay true to form.Maybe this is all BS but ...


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## Diablo

geezer said:


> This discussion about Dimebag been non-original and generic makes me think
> that the same could be said for almost every blues guitarist on the planet
> only they milk the same old licks that have been around for a hundred years.
> I respect some of the more recent blues acts just the same. I agree that some of Pantera's music sounds somewhat generic, but the same can be said for almost any Country , Pop or Rock band on the charts.If you play a certain style
> of music your fans expect you to stay true to form.Maybe this is all BS but ...


True. But this is a discussion about who deserves to be considered a "Legend". Not just "pretty good" or accomplished, etc. The standard is much higher obviously. Not every country, pop, rock band on the charts should be considered a legend.

When I hear Dimebag solo, I hear a less melodic Zakk Wylde with a cheesier tone and a vibrato bar, and not doing much interesting with either. 
In fairness, I wasnt listening much to metal when Pantera were at their peak, so theres no nostalgia there for me.
But if you've got a Youtube vid that you think might turn some of us around, be sure and post it. I'd luv to hear something from him that would explain the hype.
This was the best I could come up with:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgtZ7oOCmdM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkfphAF56Fk&feature=related
Meh. Its not bad musically, but not exceptional guitar playing either. Lynch, Beach, Nuno or Skolnick (among others) would tear him a new one 7 times 'till Sunday.


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## violation

Dime from 1988... like 22 years old - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZybJ9Z1bJxw

Wait for 2 minutes in... he basically wrote the outro to Floods before he knew it, which would later be one of my (and many others) favorite solos written by him - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nx1nuq1Pt4

Then there's Cowboys From Hell, which I'm sure everyone has heard, is great. That main riff alone is legendary. Revolution is My Name, 5 Minutes Alone, etc. are great too. 

Let's not forget Soul Bleed from Damageplan - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyEP_iHNjHA

Or The Sleep from the CFH album - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-U3GvyMDD0

You want to talk about generic look at the majority of metal. Triplet or tremolo picking and solos filled with speed. Fun! I'm not cutting down speed, I play and listen to _some_ fast music but when it's the same thing over and over it's like "enough already". 

That's where Dime was different. Cemetery Gates, Cowboys from Hell, 5 Minutes Alone, Revolution is My Name, Floods, Mouth for War, etc... none of them are fast songs but they're heavy, innovative and have some groove to them. Yes some of the songs are fast but they're not all, and they're not all the same style or song structure. There's a reason he was on tons of magazine covers saying he "saved metal" and "metal is still alive" and others along those lines. Watch the end of DimeVision for more covers. 



> wasnt he doing a guitar mag thing but as diamond darrel? maybe because dimebag was too dirty for publication? jeezus thats gay.


His original nickname was "Diamond" because Pantera used to be a glam-rock band (as you can hear on their earlier albums) and it turned to "Dimebag" because he could only afford a dimebag and people would bust his balls. 



> seemed to be on every other page of every guitar mag I ever picked up grimacing, wearing a pointy guitar, and hocking strings, pedals, plectrums, string lube, amps, toilet paper, brocolli, haemorrhoid cream, more pedals, tshirts, home insurance, timeshares in Puerto Vallarta...


He only endorsed what he used as most guitarists do. Randall amps, Washburn guitars, Dean guitars, Randall amps, Krank during the Damageplan time, Korg G3 (which he used at home as he's stated and he has used it live but only for a brief period), Digitech Whammy, Vox wah, DR Strings (I think that's the name?), etc.

Then after his death certain companies used his name to market products (ie: MXR and Dean (they're the worst)... seriously they released a neck pickup that he's never even seen or asked for and slapped his name on it). Anything new with his name on it is likely thanks to Rita.


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## NB-SK

Apostrophe (') said:


> A Vulgar Display of Digital Power!
> http://cgi.ebay.com/KORG-G3-Processor-Dimebag-Darrell-orig-ad-print_W0QQitemZ7209058271QQihZ001QQcategoryZ37839QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Funny, I thought an MXR distortion pedal and a Dunlop wah were a must to get his tone.


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## violation

NB-SK said:


> Funny, I thought an MXR distortion pedal and a Dunlop wah were a must to get his tone.


He used the Dunlop Crybaby from Hell with Damageplan (as well as the MXR Wylde Overdrive for extra sustain) and the MXR DD-11 gets you close to his original RG100ES tone but sounds a little thin (if you add an overdrive pedal with light settings it fattens it up perfectly). It was aimed at people that couldn't find or afford a RG100ES but wanted his or a similar tone. He never claimed to use it and it had it's purpose, the RG100ES is rare to find in decent condition and even harder once people realized that's what he was using. 

It's well known he used the Korg G3 on various recordings and used it at home to mess with (when he had time, he toured his ass off) and the same for the Korg G1 before the G3 was available... so I don't see why you're attempting to slam him for endorsing a product he used.



> GW: You've got a huge pile of effects boxes in the studio. Aside from the ones you've already mentioned, what other units did you use?
> 
> Darrell: I hooked up my MXR Flanger/Doubler every once in a while and I used an E-Bow for real smooth, continual sustain on "10's." I also used one of those little Korg Pandora boxes for a weird, fluttering sound on a short in "10's" and a Lexicon Vortex for the shimmering, breathy tone on my theme-like lead in "The Underground in America."
> 
> I also used a Roland AP-2 Phase II pedal, a Kork AX30G, a Digitech Whammy pedal, of course!, a Boss CE1 Chorus and a bunch of old Electro-Harmonix shit-a Small Stone Phaser, an Electric Mistress Flanger/Filter Matrix, a Little Big Muff and a Soul Preacher Compressor/Sustainer. *I also used a Korg G1 on the demos and some of that made it on the record. If I can't beat a part of the demo we'll just extract that small section and use it. The G1 is a bad-sounding little unit, man.*


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## acdc54_caddy62

He should be on a list... but not very high on it. I'm mean whomever take's a gun to his head for having a couple problems is a weak human being.


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## Diablo

Hmmm...I guess I was hoping for something a little more convincing than those links.  Their pretty much what I was familiar with. Sorry I just dont hear anything "legendary" in Cowboys from hell or Floods, or that pretty atrocious solo from 1988. Generic still comes to mind, not a legend that re-invented something or influenced the direction of the instrument or generations of players. I hear the same trills, taps, pinch harmonics and dive bombs that everyone else in his generation was doing (that they ripped off from true legends like EVH).

Obviously you're a big fan, and thats cool. Sometimes fans hear things in music that non-fans dont (and vice versa). I suppose every fan on some level thinks of their idol as "legendary"....but its not exactly objective.

As to the magazine headlines, well, magazines print a lot of stuff to sell issues to 14 yr olds. I once read a magazine headline that said Maddox (of "Brangelina" fame) is the "most powerful child in Hollywood". I put about as much stock in these headlines as I do in that one.

In fairness, although I dont think of him as a legend, theres others on the list that I dont think should be there as well e.g. Chrissie Hynde ?!?. If it were up to me, rather than put every good or popular guitarist on the list, I'd make the list smaller rather than bigger. Billy Corgan?? Rudy Schenker? lol...he isnt even the best guitarist in his own band (not to mention his own family)! May as well have Adrian Smith and Glenn Tipton there too.
Additionally IMO Kurt Cobain is as much a legend to guitar as Lee Harvey Oswald is to America. I wish grunge never happened.


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## hoser

where is this list?


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## Accept2

As a total metalhead and shredhead, I think these guys were just at the right place at the right time. I like a few things Cobain did, but his body of work is very small, and while there was some good stuff there, the rest wasnt exactly awesome. I never got into Diamond Darrel at all. On the night he was shot, he had about 100 fans, the next day, he was the second coming. I think the circumstances around their deaths makes them both legendary, but I wouldnt put either on a list unless it was really, really long and covered all bases. If one of them is a hero to you, thats fine, but dont expect the rest of us to fall in line. I wouldnt force other people to recognize Johhny Ramone as a legend just because he made some great (and not-so-great) albums that I identified with........


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## Peter

Accept2 said:


> As a total metalhead and shredhead, I think these guys were just at the right place at the right time. I like a few things Cobain did, but his body of work is very small, and while there was some good stuff there, the rest wasnt exactly awesome. I never got into Diamond Darrel at all. On the night he was shot, he had about 100 fans, the next day, he was the second coming. I think the circumstances around their deaths makes them both legendary, but I wouldnt put either on a list unless it was really, really long and covered all bases. If one of them is a hero to you, thats fine, but dont expect the rest of us to fall in line. I wouldnt force other people to recognize Johhny Ramone as a legend just because he made some great (and not-so-great) albums that I identified with........


While I only partially agree with your views on Dime's "overnight" rise to fame as a guitarist, I think everything else you've said here is spot on. :rockon:


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## NB-SK

violation said:


> He used the Dunlop Crybaby from Hell with Damageplan (as well as the MXR Wylde Overdrive for extra sustain) and the MXR DD-11 gets you close to his original RG100ES tone but sounds a little thin (if you add an overdrive pedal with light settings it fattens it up perfectly). It was aimed at people that couldn't find or afford a RG100ES but wanted his or a similar tone. He never claimed to use it and it had it's purpose, the RG100ES is rare to find in decent condition and even harder once people realized that's what he was using.
> 
> It's well known he used the Korg G3 on various recordings and used it at home to mess with (when he had time, he toured his ass off) and the same for the Korg G1 before the G3 was available... so I don't see why you're attempting to slam him for endorsing a product he used.


No, it's not a slam. It's irony.


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## violation

Diablo said:


> Generic still comes to mind, not a legend that re-invented something or influenced the direction of the instrument or generations of players.


Wayne Static of Static-X: PANTERA changed my life as a musician. Dime has always been my absolute favorite guitarist ever.

Mark Hunter of Chimaira: Dime's music gave me so much to live for when I was younger and he truly changed the face of metal with his unique style of guitar playing. There isn't a metal band I know that hasn't borrowed a riff or three from him.

Matt Heafy of Trivium: Dimebag was one of the most influential musicians in our time. Dime was a legend who really made the world seem that much better. He was a man who helped inspire countless numbers of players, fans, and people in general, including me.

Jonny Santos of Spineshank: Dimebag was to me probably the most influencial guitar player of metal since I knew what metal was.

Johnathon Davis of Korn: I really became a huge fan of Pantera, especially with what Darrell did. I'll never forget that trademark ****ing flying "V" guitar of his and his crazy, dyed ****ing goatee and insane, undeniable riffs that he wrote that have been copied I don't know how many ****ing times. He was one of the last great, traditional metal guitarists of our day. He was just a legend.

Mark Morton of Lamb of God: Dime's music was a huge influence on me personally and on Lamb of God as a whole. as a guitar player he was a true inovator. his sound tone and style shapped modern metal and his riffs are constantly referenced by nearly every band in metal including my own.

... if you watch interviews with Shadows Fall, Unearth, Killswitch Engage and pretty much every other metal band kickin' it today they mention Dime or Pantera and what he did for the genre/their playing.



Diablo said:


> As to the magazine headlines, well, magazines print a lot of stuff to sell issues to 14 yr olds. I once read a magazine headline that said Maddox (of "Brangelina" fame) is the "most powerful child in Hollywood". I put about as much stock in these headlines as I do in that one.


It wasn't just magazine headlines... it was interviews in every other magazine, on TV, pretty much everywhere they were asked a question they'd mention them "saving metal" because all the "critics" would say metal was dead.

To each his own but I'd say Dime has influenced like 75% or more of the guitar players in metal bands today... take a look at the unsigned folks on Dean or even Zakk Wylde's forums. And those are just the ones that have posted online about it... some people don't even have the Interweb!


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## toastman

The list in made controversial on purpose...


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## Stratocaster

Metal#J# said:


> I hated Dime Bags tone........but you gotta love everything else about him. He was a genius an quite a character. Definately deserves to be on the list.:rockon2:


Really? IMO he had a sexy tone, especially for using a solid state amp.


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## toastman

Accept2 said:


> As a total metalhead and shredhead, I think these guys were just at the right place at the right time. I like a few things Cobain did, but his body of work is very small, and while there was some good stuff there, the rest wasnt exactly awesome. I never got into Diamond Darrel at all. *On the night he was shot, he had about 100 fans*, the next day, he was the second coming. I think the circumstances around their deaths makes them both legendary, but I wouldnt put either on a list unless it was really, really long and covered all bases. If one of them is a hero to you, thats fine, but dont expect the rest of us to fall in line. I wouldnt force other people to recognize Johhny Ramone as a legend just because he made some great (and not-so-great) albums that I identified with........


Wow. No offence, but you got no clue what you're talking bout buddy.


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## hoser

Paul said:


> http://www.guitarscanada.com/Legends.htm


Oh. There's plenty of people on that list I can't stand, and lots that I think should be there.
As for Dime, I found him more interesting as a person than a player. Didn't like Pantera or Damageplan.


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## violation

toastman said:


> Wow. No offence, but you got no clue what you're talking bout buddy.


Haha those 100 fans must be insanely dedicated considering they had a gold record in 1993 which is like 500,000 copies sold... I think the CFH album hit gold that year too. Every single album and video they released hit gold or platinum status... Far Beyond Driven debuted at number one and The Great Southern Trendkill at three or four on the charts. Way down the road Damageplan's debut album was in the top 40 I believe.

On top of that they sold out like every show they played... those 100 fans take up a lot of space! :tongue:


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## fraser

for me, dimebags strong point was in his big, crunchy but tight rhythm parts that complemented the song-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAYxWdm_Snw
thats what i like about pantera tunes- thick, crunchy and tight.

i grew up in the days of big hair and 2 handed tapping. dark, dark and stupid times, and im forever imprinted with a dislike of pointy guitars and guys who wink and point at someone in the audience while doing hammer ons. so im less open minded in that area than i should be. 
but id still rather listen to kurt flailing away all willy nilly on a guitar noone else wants and screaming his head off. just the way i am.


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## GuitarsCanada

violation said:


> Wayne Static of Static-X: PANTERA changed my life as a musician. Dime has always been my absolute favorite guitarist ever.
> 
> Mark Hunter of Chimaira: Dime's music gave me so much to live for when I was younger and he truly changed the face of metal with his unique style of guitar playing. There isn't a metal band I know that hasn't borrowed a riff or three from him.
> 
> Matt Heafy of Trivium: Dimebag was one of the most influential musicians in our time. Dime was a legend who really made the world seem that much better. He was a man who helped inspire countless numbers of players, fans, and people in general, including me.
> 
> Jonny Santos of Spineshank: Dimebag was to me probably the most influencial guitar player of metal since I knew what metal was.
> 
> Johnathon Davis of Korn: I really became a huge fan of Pantera, especially with what Darrell did. I'll never forget that trademark ****ing flying "V" guitar of his and his crazy, dyed ****ing goatee and insane, undeniable riffs that he wrote that have been copied I don't know how many ****ing times. He was one of the last great, traditional metal guitarists of our day. He was just a legend.
> 
> Mark Morton of Lamb of God: Dime's music was a huge influence on me personally and on Lamb of God as a whole. as a guitar player he was a true inovator. his sound tone and style shapped modern metal and his riffs are constantly referenced by nearly every band in metal including my own.
> 
> ... if you watch interviews with Shadows Fall, Unearth, Killswitch Engage and pretty much every other metal band kickin' it today they mention Dime or Pantera and what he did for the genre/their playing.
> 
> 
> It wasn't just magazine headlines... it was interviews in every other magazine, on TV, pretty much everywhere they were asked a question they'd mention them "saving metal" because all the "critics" would say metal was dead.
> 
> To each his own but I'd say Dime has influenced like 75% or more of the guitar players in metal bands today... take a look at the unsigned folks on Dean or even Zakk Wylde's forums. And those are just the ones that have posted online about it... some people don't even have the Interweb!


You have to dig up quotes from people when he was alive. Nobody is going to say anything bad about someone that got shot to death on stage. Having said that, Dime was a hell of a guitar player. Let's poll it. If it comes out the winner, I will add him to the Legends page.


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## violation

I'd do it but Google is a bitch and I just get info about his death... maybe one day I'll rummage through the magazine scans I have. I know for a fact that the guys from Trivium, Soilwork, Killswitch Engage, Devildriver, Kerry King (who Dime used to jam with) and a few others have said it before his death. I'll find the videos/interviews when I've got some spare time.


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## hoser

Kerry King is in Slayer....and a really overrated player (most of Slayer's work is awful). The rest of them I'm sure I've heard but I don't really recall much about them.


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## Accept2

toastman said:


> Wow. No offence, but you got no clue what you're talking bout buddy.


And where and to whom was he playing to that night? Superdome? A hockey arena? A puppet show? Keep going lower............


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## GuitarsCanada

From what I recall on the articles I read back then, it was in a bar somewhere in a town nobody ever heard of.


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## Milkman

GuitarsCanada said:


> From what I recall on the articles I read back then, it was in a bar somewhere in a town nobody ever heard of.


Are we talking about where he was murdered?

If so, it was at a well known concert club in Columbus, Ohio called Alrosa Villa.


Dime was no saint, but he was playing his guitar on stage when he was slaughtered by a psycho with a gun. 

It would be no more tragic if it happened to Les Paul himself.

Having said that, I still don't think he's terribly significant in the grand scheme of guitar things.


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## NB-SK

Milkman said:


> Are we talking about where he was murdered?
> 
> If so, it was at a well known concert club in Columbus, Ohio called Alrosa Villa.
> 
> 
> *Dime was no saint*, but he was playing his guitar on stage when he was slaughtered by a psycho with a gun.
> 
> It would be no more tragic if it happened to Les Paul himself.
> 
> Having said that, I still don't think he's terribly significant in the grand scheme of guitar things.


Well, that's a bit of an understatement if you saw some of Pantera's tour videos (lots of drinking, puking and sleeping with ugly groupies). Then again, it may have all been scripted because he always seemed well-mannered in interviews and people who've met him always appear to have something positive to say about him.


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## Milkman

NB-SK said:


> Well, that's a bit of an understatement if you saw some of Pantera's tour videos (lots of drinking, puking and sleeping with ugly groupies).



Well, ok, but what were his NEGATIVE tendencies?

:rockon2:

Also, it's important to note that excessive drinking DOES diminish the impact of the "ugly" element of "ugly groupies".

(we'll call it the Beer goggle factor)


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## Evilmusician

GibsonTay37 said:


> Cobain could only do Power Chords and Terrible Solos, Dimebag can shred and can play more than power chords. As for Grunge Guitarists, here's my list for best guitarist
> 
> 1. Jerry Cantrell (Alice In Chains)
> 2. Mike Mccready and Stone Gossard (Pearl Jam
> 3. Kim Thayil (Soundgarden)
> 4. Buzz Osbourne (The Melvins)
> 5. The Guy from Gruntruck
> Kurt didn't even make the list


Jerry Cantrell (Alice In Chains) weren't even a grunge band same with Soundgarden they just got pigeon holed into it by the masses,media,etc . ohhhhhh you wear plaid and are from Seattle you must be a grunge band !


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## violation

Paul said:


> Dimebag I had at least heard of....I think he wrote a column in GW for a while. But who the H-E-double-hockey-sticks are "Trivium, Soilwork, Killswitch Engage, Devildriver, Kerry King"?


Yeah he wrote "Riffer Madness", originally it was going to be a few articles/lessons but people kept writing in wanting more and then it was like a series... good stuff. 

Those bands, minus Kerry King of Slayer, are pretty much the new generation of metal... add Lamb of God and God Forbid to that list and that's pretty much all the more popular ones these days.


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## GibsonTay37

Dimebag Darrell was like the Eddie Van Halen of the 1990's


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## GuitarsCanada

GibsonTay37 said:


> Dimebag Darrell was like the Eddie Van Halen of the 1990's


That may be taking it a bit too far. Just my thoughts.


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## Milkman

GuitarsCanada said:


> That may be taking it a bit too far. Just my thoughts.


A gross exaggeration at very least.


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## Diablo

Milkman said:


> A gross exaggeration at very least.


I dont see the similarity either. One is a household name with a career spanning decades, multiple gold and platinum albums, and a guaranteed arena sell out.
The other a cult hero who died playing in a nightclub at the "height" of his career.


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## fraser

id say that due to the fact that this thread even exists, then yes put him in there. if some forum members consider him an influence, then yes. doesnt matter how many of us it is. maybe someone would be willing to write the piece, and save the site owners some time. id actually like to see that- forum member submissions and contributions would be nice.
and increased traffic is a good thing right?
id be willing to write pieces on a few other legends that arent on the list myself.


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## NB-SK

Diablo said:


> I dont see the similarity either. One is a household name with a career spanning decades, multiple gold and platinum albums, and a guaranteed arena sell out.
> The other a cult hero who died playing in a nightclub at the "height" of his career.


Not only that, EVH never stopped doing some pretty creative stuff with the guitar in the 90's (like using the magnetic current of a power drill to produce sounds on the guitar on the song Poundcake (no, not quite like Paul Gilbert)). On top of that, Van Halen had some huge hits at around time Diamond Darrel's and Pantera's popularity peaked. So, to say Diamond Darrell is the EVH of the 90's...that's maybe not the best choice of words.


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## Diablo

NB-SK said:


> Not only that, EVH never stopped doing some pretty creative stuff with the guitar in the 90's (like using the magnetic current of a power drill to produce sounds on the guitar on the song Poundcake (no, not quite like Paul Gilbert)). On top of that, Van Halen had some huge hits at around time Diamond Darrel's and Pantera's popularity peaked. So, to say Diamond Darrell is the EVH of the 90's...that's maybe not the best choice of words.


I agree, its a huge over-statement. But, in fairness, this debate may be just exposing a generation gap. To younger players (20 and under) EVH wouldnt have seemed as relevant as those of us who remember the VH Memorial Day Arena concert blowouts, and all the EVH clones that followed him in the 80's and early 90's. Whereas they grew up listening and influenced by Dime and his clones.
I felt the same "meh" way about Jimmy Page, and his generation of players when I was in my teens.
As for Dime, I kind of lost interest in metal for a few years when grunge hit (didnt care much for that either, so I pretty much just hung up my guitar and focussed on a career instead), I'd heard Pantera, but frankly it didnt have enough appeal to "save metal" for me personally. It seemed like the same stuff that came before it, but louder and dirtier, and with a different breed of vocals altogether. If anything I'd say the next breed of vocalists were more influenced by guys like Anselmo and Durst, making them more legendary in their time, than their guitar playing bandmates, IMO (when you put aside the behind the scenes soap opera drama, gossip and trash talking that was taking place amongst them)


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## cheezyridr

i think dime was ok, i loved vulgar display and i think for it's time, was a groundbreaking album all the way through. i like gstk mostly because of 13 steps. 

i have to say though as far as cobain is concerned, i have no love for him. i know several people who knew him. every one of them had negative things to say about him as a person. i know that he had contempt for his fans, and showed it to them on the stage. in my opinion that makes him lower than a snake's belly. in fact, when i saw that, i threw out my nirvana cd's right then and there. he was married to courtney love. what more needs to be said? nirvana's only good point was dave grohl. and that to me, says something.


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## Starbuck

Milkman said:


> Are we talking about where he was murdered?
> 
> If so, it was at a well known concert club in Columbus, Ohio called Alrosa Villa.
> 
> 
> Dime was no saint, but he was playing his guitar on stage when he was slaughtered by a psycho with a gun.
> 
> It would be no more tragic if it happened to Les Paul himself.
> 
> Having said that, I still don't think he's terribly significant in the grand scheme of guitar things.


My husband and I watched an interview with his brother Vinnie who was there the nght he died. We got chills. Dude was pissed cause He thought Pantera should still be together and it was Dimes fault. I like some Pantera, can't really get into damage plan. I also have a live video of old Nirvana, my husband turned to me as we were watching and said "wow this would be like _you_ getting up there. Believe me, he wasn't telling me how great I am!!LOL!

I Think Cobain was a tortured soul and artist. I don't think Nirvana would still exist if he didn't die, I just don't think he was that talented. Don't get me wrong, I love their body of work, but an untimley death makes legends. If Cobain had an outlet such as You Tube or places like this, NIrvana may never had existed. Not to kick on the dead, but like Cheesy said, he didn't seem like a nice guy at all! 

Same for Darell, yes decent guitar player, some great riffs, but unfortunate sad end that leave people wondering about what may have been lost.. 

You put any two guitar player up in a poll like this you'll get similar arguments. Taste is relative.


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## Budda

Holy Bump batman


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## twoonie2

Sad and tragic what happened to Dimebag - I did like some of the Pantera material.. 

on another note .. why isn't Jeff Beck on the Guitar Legends tab - i think he's more than earned it!


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## torndownunit

Milkman said:


> Well your statement made no reference to Dime blowing away other metal guitarists. Instead you said "almost every modern guitar player".
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think he was good, but not that good. Still, he made his mark.


I personally do think he was that good. I wouldn't say 'blow away' every other modern guitarist, but I would definitely say belonged right beside them. He was starting to branch out into other material as well that really would have showen more of his diversity as well. People unfortunately only really heard one aspect of his playing. But many artists who knew him said he was one of the best ever. He was praised by everyone from Billy Gibbons to Eddie Van Halen.

The guy was a total innovator in every aspect from his playing to his gear design. He was one of those guys who took metal to a new level. A lot of people just unfortunately don't know the extent of it. The current Guitar World 'tribute' issue has some of the better articles I have read on him in it.


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## Starbuck

torndownunit said:


> I personally do think he was that good. I wouldn't say 'blow away' every other modern guitarist, but I would definitely say belonged right beside them. He was starting to branch out into other material as well that really would have showen more of his diversity as well. People unfortunately only really heard one aspect of his playing. But many artists who knew him said he was one of the best ever. He was praised by everyone from Billy Gibbons to Eddie Van Halen.
> 
> The guy was a total innovator in every aspect from his playing to his gear design. He was one of those guys who took metal to a new level. A lot of people just unfortunately don't know the extent of it. The current Guitar World 'tribute' issue has some of the better articles I have read on him in it.


I have that one and I agree with you. Most people aren't that familiar with him as you just don't hear that kind of music on the radio. You have to actively look for it (unless you have sattelite) and be a fan of the genre.


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## Xanadu

I love it when people bring back long ago dead threads.:wave:

Anyway, in terms of guitar playing talent I think that Dimebag definitely beats Cobain, however Cobain had in my opinion a much larger influence on music, and an entire generation.
Metal has been around since the 70s, and while dimebags music is different from it's roots, Grunge is vastly different from it's punk roots


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## Greenbacker

I'm not bashing Dimebag and I'm not hailing Cobain but I think another important thing to consider here is these guitarists' intentions. Kurt never wanted to play anything like Dimebag, right? I mean, in a sense, this is the type of stuff he was raging against. I'm sure Kurt was a better guitar player than he let on (tour does that to a guy, you quickly get better) but it was his sloppy style and basic chords that made Nirvana's music so unique, recognizable and immortal. There's a bit of genius in that. 

I see Cobain's music a bit like Volkswagen's_ Think Small_ campaign of the 60's. They built a small car and marketed it that way. They didn't want to build a direct competiton to the big fancy cars of the time. The genius of the Beetle and its advertising campaign was in its simplicity.

I just think its wrong to compare the two in regards to talent because of this. Influence is inevitably tied to these guys and Cobain is way up there on the _most influential_ list.

I got reading a thread somewhere else a while back where a bunch of guys (who may or may not be playing in their bedrooms) were coming down hard on Jimmy Page for being sloppy. Now, I've never heard this sloppiness. I was under the impression that he was a top session man in the UK at a very young age, but this doesn't matter. It was this "sloppiness" and his playing nuances that built Led Zepplin though. (Remember them?) If a robot played those guitar parts perfectly, it wouldn't sound _right_. Page wasn't playing Dimebag solos either but I think most of us would agree that he is/was a great guitar player regardless.


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## torndownunit

Greenbacker said:


> I'm not bashing Dimebag and I'm not hailing Cobain but I think another important thing to consider here is these guitarists' intentions. Kurt never wanted to play anything like Dimebag, right? I mean, in a sense, this is the type of stuff he was raging against. I'm sure Kurt was a better guitar player than he let on (tour does that to a guy, you quickly get better) but it was his sloppy style and basic chords that made Nirvana's music so unique, recognizable and immoral. There's a bit of genius in that.
> 
> I see Cobain's music a bit like Volkswagen's_ Think Small_ campaign of the 60's. They built a small car and marketed it that way. They didn't want to build a direct competiton to the big fancy cars of the time. The genius of the Beetle and its advertising campaign was in its simplicity.
> 
> I just think its wrong to compare the two in regards to talent because of this. Influence is inevitably tied to these guys and Cobain is way up there on the _most influential_ list.
> 
> I got reading a thread somewhere else a while back where a bunch of guys (who may or may not be playing in their bedrooms) were coming down hard on Jimmy Page for being sloppy. Now, I've never heard this sloppiness. I was under the impression that he was a top session man in the UK at a very young age, but this doesn't matter. It was this "sloppiness" and his playing nuances that built Led Zepplin though. (Remember them?) If a robot played those guitar parts perfectly, it wouldn't sound _right_. Page wasn't playing Dimebag solos either but I think most of us would agree that he is/was a great guitar player regardless.


I don't compare the 2 at all. Different things make a 'good' guitarist to me. I was only commenting that Dimebags' contributions seem to be very underplayed in this thread.


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## Greenbacker

Sure. I totally see that. I didn't mean for it to come across that way. My message wasn't really directed at anybody, I just thought there is a massive distinction to be made between the two as guitar players.


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## Hamstrung

It appears that the vast majority of these type of arguments are due to a lack of a commonly accepted definition of terms like "Legend" or "Great". 
What makes a guitar player a legend or considered great? 

Innovators often make these lists long after their abilities have been copied and bested but their place in history is earned non-the-less. 

I just read an autobiography of Chet Atkins who himself disputed anyone who said he's the greatest guitar player ever. There are many who believe he was but he knew that while he was at the forefront of a style that he and a few others helped to create that a new crop of players were learning his licks note for note and expanding on that. He enjoyed playing with them and felt he was passing the torch. His legendary status will remain because of what he did and when he did it. 

People who repackage a bunch of existing elements into something fresh and interesting (which if you look at it is all anyone is really doing) can also attain legendary status if the timing is right. I believe Cobain falls into this category. He wasn't particularly innovative or hyper skilled but he made some damn interesting music at a time when things were getting stagnant (80's hair metal). 
When you consider the massive shift in popular music that happened as a result (largely) of Nevermind I have to give him legendary status for that even if it was a combination of timing and marketing that had little to do with him in particular. Technically from a skill point of view it could have been anybody but it wasn't. It was his music that spearheaded the grunge movement for good or bad. Bands of arguably superior skill like Soundgarden and Alice in Chains were able to get exposure due to the marketing hype but they were good enough to earn their place.

I've met a lot of guitar players who from a skill level are as good or better than many that are considered "legends" and the world will never know who they are so we need to define "legend" beyond the boundary of skill alone.

I love music from both Cobain and DD but for different reasons and for different moods. I don't even consider picking apart the "skill" level that went into it. That's for the artist to brag about, not me. Both of these guys made enough impact to cause debate. I guess any artist could only wish for the same.
My reaction to most guitar playing is visceral. I've heard songs of great simplicity that are quite moving and some technical passages that are astounding. Sometimes I experience the opposite and either can leave me cold. Isn't the guitar just the coolest?!!


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## Rugburn

Kind of a ridiculous comparison, really. One guy is a shredder virtuoso, while the other is essentially a singer/songwriter who loved to play guitar. It's a lot like comparing Neil Young to Slash, or Zakk Wylde. Although "legendary" doesn't really seem aprapos for Dimebag.


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## torndownunit

Rugburn said:


> Kind of a ridiculous comparison, really. One guy is a shredder virtuoso, while the other is essentially a singer/songwriter who loved to play guitar. It's a lot like comparing Neil Young to Slash, or Zakk Wylde. *Although "legendary" doesn't really seem aprapos for Dimebag*.


It does if you are a fan of his and his music though. I have no problem categorizing him as a legend, and either do a lot of his peers. When you have People from Billy Gibbons, to Zak Wylde, to Eddie Van Halen singing your praises as a player, you are doing something right. I honestly think as someone else mentioned, it comes down to the limited scope of Pantera's music. While the metal audience is large, it's still a niche audience compared to the audience some of these other players reached. 

People who don't like that kind of music don't realize what an effect his playing and gear innovations had on the genre either. All you have to do is read interviews with the current crop of new metal acts to see what a massive influence he had. His playing affected metal the same way Cobain affected the 'Alternative Rock" genre.

I don't use the word legend often, but he's one player from *my generation* I do believe is a legend.


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## Rugburn

torndownunit said:


> It does if you are a fan of his and his music though. I have no problem categorizing him as a legend, and either do a lot of his peers. When you have People from Billy Gibbons, to Zak Wylde, to Eddie Van Halen singing your praises as a player, you are doing something right. I honestly think as someone else mentioned, it comes down to the limited scope of Pantera's music. While the metal audience is large, it's still a niche audience compared to the audience some of these other players reached.
> 
> People who don't like that kind of music don't realize what an effect his playing and gear innovations had on the genre either. All you have to do is read interviews with the current crop of new metal acts to see what a massive influence he had. His playing affected metal the same way Cobain affected the 'Alternative Rock" genre.
> 
> I don't use the word legend often, but he's one player from *my generation* I do believe is a legend.





Right and wrong are pretty abstact notions in a thread of this kind. I'll give you *Thrash Metal *or *Speed Metal *legend in terms of his music, but Heavy Metal in general; no. Tony Iommi, EVH, Randy Rhodes, and of course the big shredder names like Satriani and Vai to name a few, loom pretty large compared to someone like Dimebag IMO. This is no reflection on the quality of his playing or influence in a genre that most folks don't really listen to. As far as the "my generation" thing goes, I'm only 37!. I hope I get to be a part of this generation too! LOL I hate to think I come off as an "old timer".


Shawn :smile:


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## Hypno Toad

It wasn't really about only guitar skill with Cobain. Probably a combination of vocals, style, sound, etc.


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## torndownunit

Rugburn said:


> Right and wrong are pretty abstact notions in a thread of this kind. I'll give you *Thrash Metal *or *Speed Metal *legend in terms of his music, but Heavy Metal in general; no. Tony Iommi, EVH, Randy Rhodes, and of course the big shredder names like Satriani and Vai to name a few, loom pretty large compared to someone like Dimebag IMO. This is no reflection on the quality of his playing or influence in a genre that most folks don't really listen to. As far as the "my generation" thing goes, I'm only 37!. I hope I get to be a part of this generation too! LOL I hate to think I come off as an "old timer".
> 
> 
> Shawn :smile:


First of all, I am not a massive Pantera fan. I really only 'love' on album by them, and only listen to it maybe once a year at that. These are not biased remarks from a hardcore Pantera fan. My opinion is based on what was going on around me when Cowboys From Hell and Vulgar Display Of Power came out. I was in highschool at the time, and those albums affected a lot of people.

Remember Pantera's life span wasn't that long. So a difference of 4 years (which we have) is a big difference. Pantera's major albums were released, and they were pretty much done in that time. But more to the point, it's the current under 25 batch of metal players you should ask about Dimebag and the effects they had on them growing up. Vulgar Display of Power had a MASSIVE effect on a lot of people I know my age. A lot of them weren't even into heavier metal before that. The effect on younger people was even bigger. They completely revere him.

I have no problem with people not liking him, Pantera's music, or even his style of playing. I am not even a HUGE fan. But I just think his status goes WAY beyond what people are giving him credit for in this thread. Obviously if you don't think much about him or his music. You aren't going to feel the same.

For an example I absolutely despise Dream Theatre, their music, and John Petrucci's playing. From what he plays, to his sound. But I wouldn't deny his incredible talent, and the fact that by the end of his career he will likely be seen as a legend.

Another difference is, I easily put Dimebag on par with the other metal players you mentioned. Pantera were not Speed Metal or Thrash. They developed their own sound, just like those other bands/players did. It's just a clear difference of opinion that won't be resolved :smile: . I'm only hoping to explain the effect Dimebag Darrel had on a lot of people and why some categorize him the way they do.


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## Budda

A lot of people love Dime for the passion he put into his playing, and how it translated into his sound and style. I think that's the main thing. I'll ask my roomie, he's a huge pantera fan.


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## fraser

perhaps if dimebag wore a dress sometimes?

[YOUTUBE]_SnvejVyL2s[/YOUTUBE]


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