# Booking info "Sportsman Bar" BUffalo NY



## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

When I read this, it left a bad taste in my mouth...
I have been out of professional music for a good while but if this the "new" world musicians live in?

Quote Pasted from their web site.

_Booking Info

Please consider the following before inquiring about playing the Sportsmen’s Tavern.

The Sportsmen’s is a true music club. We are not a bar restaurant that occasionally provides entertainment for their patrons. 
We feature up to 13 musical performances each week & do not have a built in crowd waiting to be entertained.

Being a music club means, we focus on selling music to the public. 
Most bars & restaurants focus on selling food & beverage with music being a side project.

What does this mean to you?

Bands must have the ability to draw at least 60 patrons that are willing to pay the cover to see you perform. 
Of course we have a few doz. loyal fans and some of them will be in attendance on any given occasion,
but we need your fan base to support the show or it simply won’t work 
The last thing either one of us wants is for you to play for the bartender.

All band members must all be 21 to play.

We do not host rap, hip-hop, heavy metal or punk.

Loud music does not work well. If you are too loud, you will not be asked back & might even be asked to end your show early.

Please keep in mind that most of our slots are a 3 hour window & you are required to provide entertainment for the entire time.
We provide PA, sound tech & in most cases, require all bands to use the properly maintained house drum kit.
We also have a guitar & bass amp on stage that all are welcome to use.

After reading this & you feel your band is a proper fit, please send an EPK, link to your web page, YouTube etc. to:

[email protected]

or call 716-592-2190

during business hours, preferably in the mid to late morning.

Please note: DUE TO THE HIGH VOLUME OF SUBMISSIONS WE CAN”T REPLY TO EVERYONE.

We do listen & review every band/artist, but sorry, we simply can’t get back to everyone. 
No reply generally means we do not think your band is appropriate for the Sportsmen’s Tavern.

No truer words were ever spoken………………..

“The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, 
and good men die like dogs. There’s also a negative side.”

- Hunter S. Thompson
_


So..is this the kind of place you want to play at?

G.


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## -ST- (Feb 2, 2008)

The clarity is refreshing.

I hope that it's a nice venue with great support and resources. Otherwise, it might just be easier to hire a venue (animal hall) and invite a couple hundred fans and friends, split all the costs and call it a party.

I used to do events where the main focus was the music in a nice venue where a caterer provided the food and beverages. It's not as easy as it sounds.


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## BIGDC (Aug 16, 2011)

I saw Lake Street Dive here back in May and thought it was a great venue. Behind the small stage is a large projection screen so the folks up on the balcony can see the band on the CC TV and there are also TV's at the bar for the same reason. The sound was great and my daughter put the performance up there with the Robert Plant/Alison Krausse show she saw a couple of years ago. Albert Lee didn't seem to have an issue playing there earlier this month


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Don't see any problems here. Can you imagine how many 15 year olds contact them asking to play the four songs they know to 5 of their underage friends. To me this ads reads like this, "here is what we do, if you are a good fit perhaps we can work together."

I kept waiting for the part where the band pays the hall owner a bunch of cash just so they can play . . . 

TG


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

Sounds about right


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

traynor_garnet said:


> Don't see any problems here. Can you imagine how many 15 year olds contact them asking to play the four songs they know to 5 of their underage friends. To me this ads reads like this, "here is what we do, if you are a good fit perhaps we can work together."
> 
> *I kept waiting for the part where the band pays the hall owner a bunch of cash just so they can play . . .*
> 
> TG


That's kind of what I got from the part where it says: "Bands must have the ability to draw at least 60 patrons that are willing to pay the cover to see you perform."

I imagine if your draw is poor, it will reflect on your take for the night, unless you're strictly making the door and nothing else. 

Anyway, lots of places in TO are like this as well. It's no biggie. If you can't draw enough, there's plenty of other places to play.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

when I started this thread I realy didnt have much time to think about it...was just a bad feeling about the whole thing.

here is my take now...

WHat this club is saying to me is that they have entertainment and NO audience.
BAsicaly they say that unless you bring the audience with you, nobody will show up.

WHat kind of club is proud of the fact that nobody wants to go there and enjoy music.
YEs there are folks that will pay the cover for certain bands BUT in general, this club has NO audience that 
will show up to be entertained.

Yes I'm from a different era BUT this logic escapes me.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

GTmaker said:


> when I started this thread I realy didnt have much time to think about it...was just a bad feeling about the whole thing.
> 
> here is my take now...
> 
> ...


It's not that weird at all. I can think of lots of clubs in Toronto that I absolutely LOVE for music, but I wouldn't go there on a random night to see what's up. This is more of a concert venue than a bar. Think of it like going to Air Canada Centre or Massey Hall. Neither is a place you'd just drop into - you'd be going to see a specific event. Same kinda thing, just on a smaller scale. 

Lots of bars in Toronto also have front and back, where people might come and hang out at the bar, but not necessarily pay the cover to go to the back and watch the bands. Horseshoe is like this, so are places like Clinton's, etc. The bands don't get anything from bar sales in the front area, they just get the door and, if they're lucky, a part of the bar. So it's possible the front is hopping, but no one cares enough to come to the back to see you (since they can already hear you anyway). It's just how it is at some places.


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## Intrepid (Oct 9, 2008)

Some of the older members may remember back in the day, but in the 60's and early 70's our Band's gigs depended on whether our Band had a following or not. If we could bring the people in to the Bar, we had a Gig and sometimes would get an extension and paid well. There were so many Bars with Live music that they competed with each other to get the most popular Bands to bring the people in. IF your Band sucked, you didn't get a lot of invites unless you had a decent Manager who set up a mini tour from town to town. By the time they realised you sucked you were off to the next venue. Live music and entertainment was huge back then.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

hollowbody said:


> That's kind of what I got from the part where it says: "Bands must have the ability to draw at least 60 patrons that are willing to pay the cover to see you perform."
> 
> I imagine if your draw is poor, it will reflect on your take for the night, unless you're strictly making the door and nothing else.
> 
> Anyway, lots of places in TO are like this as well. It's no biggie. If you can't draw enough, there's plenty of other places to play.


Buddy of mine's son has a band, local, decent. They have played the Horseshoe Tavern in Toronto a couple of times now. They think its fantastic due to it's history. No pay and they have to arrange a bus load of patrons in from Niagara cuz there ain't no locals dropping in. Pretty sad really


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## Intrepid (Oct 9, 2008)

The "No Pay" is the real sad part. That really sucks. The Bar's are in the driver's seat in the new millenium.


GuitarsCanada said:


> Buddy of mine's son has a band, local, decent. They have played the Horseshoe Tavern in Toronto a couple of times now. They think its fantastic due to it's history. No pay and they have to arrange a bus load of patrons in from Niagara cuz there ain't no locals dropping in. Pretty sad really


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## BIGDC (Aug 16, 2011)

I've only been there the one time so I may be speaking out the back of my head but the place was packed when I was there and the impression I get is that it's a locally well known venue to see a lot of more "rootsy" flavoured bands. Check out there upcoming shows and it's an easy drive for us Niagarans

http://sportsmenstavern.com/home/


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Buddy of mine's son has a band, local, decent. They have played the Horseshoe Tavern in Toronto a couple of times now. They think its fantastic due to it's history. No pay and they have to arrange a bus load of patrons in from Niagara cuz there ain't no locals dropping in. Pretty sad really


Sounds about right for the 'Shoe. Some friends of mine have played there too, mostly because (like you said) the history. It's a great place to play, great place to get promo footage, but you either make nothing or very little and the venue does this specifically because they know people will still want to play there.


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## ssydor (Dec 12, 2012)

hollowbody said:


> Sounds about right for the 'Shoe. Some friends of mine have played there too, mostly because (like you said) the history. It's a great place to play, great place to get promo footage, but you either make nothing or very little and the venue does this specifically because they know people will still want to play there.


The Horseshoe is a cool spot, and my band (Crowe) plays there a couple of times a year... simply because it is the Horseshoe. It is a great room, great sound system, great location, and has a great History (heck, the Stones have played there!). But they are very picky about who they book... and it is hard to get a weekend slot there (unless you are pretty well known, and draw a crowd). But most venues in Toronto expect you to bring a crowd. If you can't get fans\friends\family out, they won't have you back. This is nothing new, and a reasonable request. It has been like this ever since I started playing in Bands (early 90's).
Bars are in the business of selling booze. If the bar is empty when you play it doesn't work out well for anyone!


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

ssydor said:


> The Horseshoe is a cool spot, and my band (Crowe) plays there a couple of times a year... simply because it is the Horseshoe. It is a great room, great sound system, great location, and has a great History (heck, the Stones have played there!). But they are very picky about who they book... and it is hard to get a weekend slot there (unless you are pretty well known, and draw a crowd). *But most venues in Toronto expect you to bring a crowd. If you can't get fans\friends\family out, they won't have you back. This is nothing new, and a reasonable request. It has been like this ever since I started playing in Bands (early 90's).
> Bars are in the business of selling booze. If the bar is empty when you play it doesn't work out well for anyone*!


IF this is true, it tells me that these bars usualy hire such terrible entertainment that anyone whose ever been looking for good music stays away. What your left with then is the "Friends of the band crowd"..
What is so reasonable about this type of business plan escapes me completely.
G.

my amazement is directed a bar owners that follow this business plan....I just dont get it.

In case your wondering how it use to be....
Bars had reputations for hireing very good/ great bands that could entertain a crowd. The folks showed up Monday - Saturday looking for and getting great entertainment. What they did while they where there is have a great social life with other freinds, listen to great music and drink a hell of a lot of booze.
Bar owners made money, bands made money and the crowd went home happy.
where this formula fell apart is beyond my understanding as I left the business well before it happened.


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## 335Bob (Feb 26, 2006)

I found this that hits the nail on the head. 

http://diymusician.cdbaby.com/2012/...-an-open-letter-from-a-professional-musician/

Why Music Venues Are Totally Lost: An Open Letter from a Professional Musician

Jazz musician Dave Goldberg wrote a pointed and darkly humorous open letter to LA club owners that I thought was worth sharing. In it, he argues that it’s actually a counterproductive practice for venues to book bands who are willing to work for free. And when I say “counterproductive,” I mean it’s bad for the venue’s business.

Just the other day I was told by someone who owned a wine bar that they really liked our music and would love for us to play at their place. She then told me the gig paid $75 for a trio. Now $75 used to be bad money per person, let alone $75 for the whole band. It had to be a joke, right? No, she was serious.But it didn’t end there. She then informed us we had to bring 25 people minimum. Didn’t even offer us extra money if we brought 25 people. I would have laughed other than it’s not the first time I’ve gotten this proposal from club owners. But are there musicians really doing this? Yes. They are so desperate to play, they will do anything.

But lets think about this for a second and turn this around a little bit.What if I told the wine bar owner that I have a great band and we are going to play at my house. I need someone to provide and pour wine while we play. I can’t pay much, just $75 and you must bring at least 25 people who are willing to pay a $10 cover charge at the door. Now wouldn’t they look at you like you are crazy?

“Why would I do that,” they would ask? Well, because it’s great exposure for you and your wine bar. The people there would see how well you pour wine and see how good your wine is. Then they would come out to your wine bar sometime. ”But I brought all the people myself, I already know them,” they would say. Well maybe you could make up some professional looking flyers, pass them out, and get people you don’t know to come on out. ”But you are only paying me $75, How can I afford to make up flyers?”

You see how absurd this sounds, but musicians do this all the time. If they didn’t, then the club owners wouldn’t even think of asking us to do it. So this sounds like a great deal for the club owners, doesn’t it? They get a band and customers for that night, and have to pay very little if anything. But what they don’t realize is that this is NOT in their best interest. Running a restaurant, a club, a bar, is really hard. There is a lot at stake for the owner. You are trying to get loyal customers that will return because you are offering them something special. If you want great food, you hire a great chef. If you want great décor, you hire a great interior decorator. You expect these professionals to do their best at what you are hiring them to do. It needs to be the same with the band.You hire a great band and should expect great music.That should be the end of your expectations for the musicians. The music is another product for the venue to offer, no different from food or beverages.

When a venue opens it’s doors, it has to market itself. The club owner can’t expect people to just walk in the door. This has to be handled in a professional way. Do you really want to leave something so important up to a musician?

This is where the club owner needs to take over. It is their success or their failure on the line, not the musician.The musician can just move on to another venue. I’ve played places where for whatever reason only a few people have walked in the door on a Saturday night. The club owner got mad at me, asking where are the people? I turned it around on him asking the same thing? Where are all the people? It’s Saturday night and your venue is empty. Doesn’t that concern you? What are you going to do about it? Usually their answer is to find another band with a larger following. This means the professional bands get run out of the joint in favor of whoever can bring in the most people.

He then makes the point that professional bands will have a somewhat harder time playing the “friend and family” card because, well… they’re pros! They play every night.

But here’s where the club owner doesn’t get it. The crowd is following the band, not the venue. The next night you will have to start all over again. And the people that were starting to follow your venue are now turned off because you just made them listen to a bad band. The goal should be to build a fan base of the venue. To get people that will trust that you will have good music in there every night. Instead, you’ve soiled your reputation for a quick fix.

If you asked a club owner, ”who is your target demographic?” I doubt they would answer ”the band’s friends and family.” But yet clubs operate like it is.

… would you expect the chef’s friends and family to eat at your restaurant every night? How about the dishwasher, the waitresses, the hostess? Or how about the club owner’s friends and family? You see,when you start turning this argument around, it becomes silly.

So what does Dave suggest? Start fighting back, with calm, reasoned arguments. He explains:

I’ve started arguing with club owners about this. It happened after I played a great night of music in LA. We were playing for a % of the bar. There were about 50 people there in this small venue, so it was a good turnout. At the end of the night, I go to get paid, and hope to book another gig. The club owner was angry.

“Where are your people?” he asked. ”All these people, I brought in. We had a speed dating event and they are all left over from that.”

I pointed out they all stayed and listened to the music for 2 hours after their event ended. That was 2 more hours of bar sales, because without us, you have an empty room with nothing going on. He just couldn’t get over the fact that we didn’t walk in with our own entourage of fans. Wasn’t happy that we kept a full room spending money. Right when we were talking, a group of people interrupted us and said ”you guys sound great, when is the next time you’re playing here again?” The club owner, said ”they aren’t, they didn’t bring anyone.”

I went home that night bummed out and sent him an email. Telling him most of what you are reading here and how his business model and thinking is flawed. After a lot of swearing back and forth, because I’m guessing that musicians never talk to him as a business equal, he eventually admitted that what I was saying made sense. BUT, that’s not how LA clubs and restaurants work. And he has bands answering his craigslist ads willing to do whatever it takes to get the gig. It’s been a couple of years now since that conversation. I called his bar, and the number is disconnected.

So what do you think? Can this battle be won by reasoning with one venue at a time? Or have the economics of the live music world shifted forever beyond our influence?


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

This is all very typical of live music everywhere. It is beyond the control of bar owners and musicians as well. The bottom line really is, very few people come out to listen to live music anymore. We are at a time when musicians have to compete with other forms of entertainment. In the 60s, 70s and even in the 80s, there were no big screen TVs, no karaokes, no DVDs, no computer games, no internet, no youtube, etc. The bars have also been hit hard by things like the laws against DUI, no smoking, etc. Sports on TV doesn't even attract people to bars anymore at least not as much as it used to. Here in Ottawa, I don't know of any live music venue who really have a bunch of people who would come week in and week out checking out the bands that are playing. We can all thumb our noses and say, hey if I am not getting paid this much I'm not going to play in your venue. But then you end up playing nowhere. There has been a lot of live music venues that have closed down here in just the last 5 years. Times have changed and I don't really see it coming back to the way it was. Music is so accessible these days in different formats, there's youtube, there's facebook where you can read, hear and practically listen to the band. The idea of going to a bar to hear live music for a lot of younger people is not there anymore they'd rather watch videos, listen to their ipods, play video games, etc...

Sad to say, it is what it is. Most people I know these days play music because they love doing it. And I'm not talking of guys who just came out of their garage and decided to start gigging. These are bands that have written great music aside from being great performers. There would be some that would be making it big and play these large venues and sell millions of copies of their music, but for the rest of the thousands and maybe millions of people playing music, this is just about as far as you can go.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Chito, your comments hit the nail on the head...or coffin for that matter.

To further your comments if I may, compound the problem with a market saturated with musicians/bands. Some excellent some not so. All are after the same shrinking market.
The bands that get the most/best gigs have an angle the others don't. 

In today's world, being in a band is more about business than music. It's an entertainment package. Can't say how many times I've seen a technically good band but boring as hell to watch, choosing boring tunes to play and not making an effort to connect with the audience. Think for a moment about what the average patron's expectations are....Booze, lookin to score, escape from a mundane work week etc. The onus on the band is to command as much of their attention as possible and make the experience exciting and inclusive. Unfortunately, many bands just can't or won't comply with that idea and eventually when they've exhausted all their family and friends invites find they're playing to empty venues...and then not at all.




Chito said:


> This is all very typical of live music everywhere. It is beyond the control of bar owners and musicians as well. The bottom line really is, very few people come out to listen to live music anymore. We are at a time when musicians have to compete with other forms of entertainment. In the 60s, 70s and even in the 80s, there were no big screen TVs, no karaokes, no DVDs, no computer games, no internet, no youtube, etc. The bars have also been hit hard by things like the laws against DUI, no smoking, etc. Sports on TV doesn't even attract people to bars anymore at least not as much as it used to. Here in Ottawa, I don't know of any live music venue who really have a bunch of people who would come week in and week out checking out the bands that are playing. We can all thumb our noses and say, hey if I am not getting paid this much I'm not going to play in your venue. But then you end up playing nowhere. There has been a lot of live music venues that have closed down here in just the last 5 years. Times have changed and I don't really see it coming back to the way it was. Music is so accessible these days in different formats, there's youtube, there's facebook where you can read, hear and practically listen to the band. The idea of going to a bar to hear live music for a lot of younger people is not there anymore they'd rather watch videos, listen to their ipods, play video games, etc...
> 
> Sad to say, it is what it is. Most people I know these days play music because they love doing it. And I'm not talking of guys who just came out of their garage and decided to start gigging. These are bands that have written great music aside from being great performers. There would be some that would be making it big and play these large venues and sell millions of copies of their music, but for the rest of the thousands and maybe millions of people playing music, this is just about as far as you can go.


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## ssydor (Dec 12, 2012)

Yep! This whole topic sturs up all sorts of stuff! People don't like to pay for music (why buy it when you can just download it for free), and people don't like to actually go out and see bands anymore (why go out when you can just watch youtube clips).
The 80's are long gone! Since the 90's, there haven't been as many live music venues around (in the Toronto area at least). And the ones that are still around don't seem to have as many regulars \ locals as they used to. And when you get out to the burbs, there is nowhere to play unless you are doing the cover band \ tribute band thing (which is fine, but not what I am interested in doing).
I have seen a lot of great bands playing to empty rooms over the years, and I have done my share of gigs where only a few people showed up too! 
It is hard to make a go of it as a musician. Especially in Toronto. Music is just a hoby for me now (I don't depend on it for my livelyhood). But in the current music climate, I don't know how anyone can make a living as a musician??? People don't seem to be into live music, and it is impossible to get people to buy music. And playing for little money is one thing, but don't even get me started on the whole "Pay-to-Play" thing! 

And now for a hameless hijack If you guys are really into supporting live music, then come check my band out (Crowe) at the Cameron House in Toronto on Thurs Oct. 24th!

You can check us out online at http://www.crowemusic.ca, and you can download our album (for free) at http://crowetunes.bandcamp.com





Chito said:


> This is all very typical of live music everywhere. It is beyond the control of bar owners and musicians as well. The bottom line really is, very few people come out to listen to live music anymore. We are at a time when musicians have to compete with other forms of entertainment. In the 60s, 70s and even in the 80s, there were no big screen TVs, no karaokes, no DVDs, no computer games, no internet, no youtube, etc. The bars have also been hit hard by things like the laws against DUI, no smoking, etc. Sports on TV doesn't even attract people to bars anymore at least not as much as it used to. Here in Ottawa, I don't know of any live music venue who really have a bunch of people who would come week in and week out checking out the bands that are playing. We can all thumb our noses and say, hey if I am not getting paid this much I'm not going to play in your venue. But then you end up playing nowhere. There has been a lot of live music venues that have closed down here in just the last 5 years. Times have changed and I don't really see it coming back to the way it was. Music is so accessible these days in different formats, there's youtube, there's facebook where you can read, hear and practically listen to the band. The idea of going to a bar to hear live music for a lot of younger people is not there anymore they'd rather watch videos, listen to their ipods, play video games, etc...
> 
> Sad to say, it is what it is. Most people I know these days play music because they love doing it. And I'm not talking of guys who just came out of their garage and decided to start gigging. These are bands that have written great music aside from being great performers. There would be some that would be making it big and play these large venues and sell millions of copies of their music, but for the rest of the thousands and maybe millions of people playing music, this is just about as far as you can go.


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## ssydor (Dec 12, 2012)

http://louderthanwar.com/is-the-live-circuit-dying-out/


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

As has been noted, it's a different world now than it was in the 80s.

People simply don't go out to enjoy live music in the numbers we used to see.

I'll spare you the tales from the good olde days, but we used to play six and sometimes seven nights a week and rarely had a poor crowd. And, the bars we played were generally 300 bodies or more. Bands used to bring in full production for bar gigs.

Now, you set up on a postage stamp and all that you can afford to bring is stage gear and a tiny PA. Lights? Not likely.

And that's to get less cash than we were getting in the 80s.

If you play live these days, it's because you love it.

Having said that, for me, it's just not appealing to play with no production and not have enough room to put on a show (sorry, guitar face is not a show).

I only hope that so much damage is not done as to cause too many talented and gifted players to bail.

That will have a lasting impact on music.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

In the late 70's/80's we worked 5 -6 3 to 4 set nights with full Martin stacks, 24 -32 channel mains, 16 - 24 1000 watt Pars, drum riser and dedicated sound and lighting guys. Our minimum was $4000 per week and not uncommonly, $8000. We had an old 36 passenger school bus for gear and a van for the band. Crowds were 300 people and up. We were not alone. There was lots of competition for gigs, even doing covers. I think minimum wage was $4/hr in the crowd and the bars made tons of money.

What happened????


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

bluzfish said:


> In the late 70's/80's we worked 5 -6 3 to 4 set nights with full Martin stacks, 24 -32 channel mains, 16 - 24 1000 watt Pars, drum riser and dedicated sound and lighting guys. Our minimum was $4000 per week and not uncommonly, $8000. We had an old 36 passenger school bus for gear and a van for the band. Crowds were 300 people and up. We were not alone. There was lots of competition for gigs, even doing covers. I think minimum wage was $4/hr in the crowd and the bars made tons of money.
> 
> What happened????


Yup, that's the way I remember it. We used to actually tour as a cover / original band. A club gig was like a concert reduced in scale to fit the environment.

That was a different world and like most old guys, I remember it fondly.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Many of us old enough to remember "The good old days" have, at least, fond memories. I don't see the present trend reversing but rather moving further away from live entertainment.
Technology is the culprit and the seeds were sown long before the '80's. It actually started in the '40's. 

Once upon a time there were live orchestras in every entertainment establishment on every corner of a large city. The advent radio, television and records started the decline. Even the mighty Hammond organ which I am so fond of, precipitated the decline. It's use enabled bands to replace horn players. Who needs 8 players when you can get away with 3 or 4?

All to say, there will always be live music but it no longer holds the cachet it once had and from a cost perspective, not economical for many venues or bands. 
It's merely now yet another curious diversion for many in our busy world.



Milkman said:


> Yup, that's the way I remember it. We used to actually tour as a cover / original band. A club gig was like a concert reduced in scale to fit the environment.
> 
> That was a different world and like most old guys, I remember it fondly.


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