# what the hell is with lead singers?



## esp_dsp (Feb 27, 2007)

I have no idea what it is but i guess when your a lead singer you have to have all the attention all the time... not just on stage but freaking everywhere like what the hell... now this just might be the lead singer in my band i donno but it seems like every gig he is trying to upstage me during my solos i like to be up at the front of the stage maybe put my foot up on the pa or something and just let it rip but it always seems like he is up in my way in front of me just really ticks me off


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## sysexguy (Mar 5, 2006)

that's why pointy headstocks were the thing in the 80's....:sport-smiley-002:

Andy


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## esp_dsp (Feb 27, 2007)

lol well my headstocks rounded =( lol


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## JSD's Guitar Shack (Feb 24, 2006)

Sorry to say your singer has been struck by LSD..... lead singer disease, terrible disorder, some of them just can't help it. Seek medical attention immediately or get a guitar with more points as suggested...:smilie_flagge17:


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

Yup! LSD is very common, but lets face it. It takes a different kind of person to get up in front of a crowd, sing and try promote some crowd reaction. I know I can't do it!


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*"The world goes as it will..."*



ne1roc said:


> Yup! LSD is very common, but lets face it. It takes a different kind of person to get up in front of a crowd, sing and try promote some crowd reaction. I know I can't do it!


The first band I ever worked for hired an extra guitarist to be the main vocalist/front man at the same time as me. After only one gig the other guys hated him, especially the original guitarist. Me also being "new", we were lumped together to share rooms.

I found the new front man to be a great guy and 35 years later he's still one of my closest friends. At the time I spent a lot of thought over why he was disliked (but they wouldn't fire him!) and came to some conclusions that might be similar in your case.

The new guitarist I'll call Irish and the original I'll call Kevin. Kevin was at the time a far better guitarist than Irish but when the band was on stage few noticed. All eyes were on Irish.

He was just exactly what he was hired to be - a great front man! He reacted to the crowd. He used a 50 ft cord and did solos from on top of tables. (this was the early 70's and very uncommon. Besides, clubs were bigger then) He smiled at the girls and grinned at the guys. He dressed in obvious stage clothes and changed outfits every set. The crowd loved him! All the cheers were for Irish and nobody really noticed Kevin.

As I said, Kevin was by far the better player. The other guys weren't slouches either. The problem was that none of them made any effort to the appearance of the band. The "showmanship", if you like. They went up in blue jeans and old T-shirts. Kevin stood there like a tree trunk planted on the stage, thinking that his amazing fingers should be enough!

What they didn't understand is that they weren't playing for other musicians. Ordinary folks don't have the background to appreciate deep guitar technique by itself. They were there to drink, dance and pick each other up. They were not there to write a review for "Guitar Player".

Irish gave them a great show! They had a helluva good time! They drank lots of beer and made the club owner very happy.

Not surprisingly, in the next few years the other guys dropped out of the scene to become posties or accountants or whatever. No shame in that of course. However, Irish formed his own cover band and kept playing for the next 20 years, until the changing economics made it no longer worthwhile. There are still club owners in the area who would give him a gig tomorrow if he called them up. In that scene, Kevin and the others are long forgotten. 

It's natural as a performer to want some recognition but if you're going to play for a regular audience you just have to accept that a good front man/vocalist will get the lion's share. What the rest of the band contributes is more subliminal. If you're all better players the crowd will like your band more but don't expect them to know why. As I said, they don't have the background to appreciate that you're better musicians.

JMHO

:food-smiley-004:


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## Gear Pig (Mar 25, 2007)

Probably one of the reasons we all share the duty, three of us.. all players, sing. Makes for great harmonies too. Plus it makes the pay a little better at the end of the night with that one less person!!
:rockon2:


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

There must be a web site on how to deal with unfortunate but severe disorder. If nothing works in the end, Just tell him to keep out of your f%&@#g face when it's your time to solo. Assuming what Wild Bill says doesn't apply.


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

Its the main reason I learned to sing and play. Tired of putting up with their bullsh*t. Now I'm in a trio, and everybody sings.
How do you know its a singer at the door???

Stones


























They don't know when to come in, and which key to use!!

CT.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Seems like every band I've been in, the lead singer(s) haven't even owned their own mic/cord/stand/effects. What's that all about?

Peace, Mooh.


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

I think I've said this before; If you want a good front man/woman, you had better expect them to be a premadona gloryhound type as they all are.

I have very rarely met a good front person that was mild mannered, considerate or sane. They can only pretend to be human for so long before their true personalities rise to the surface.

Their condition is what makes them interesting to watch.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2007)

Some people have stage presence, some people don't.... When given a choice, the audience will always follow the person who has it, no matter what the person who doesn't is doing.

Maybe you shouldn't be so easily upstaged... 


"i like to be up at the front of the stage maybe put my foot up on the pa or something"
Talk about boring...


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i finally gave up on singers and decided if i want the job done right i need to do it myself. its worked out great, in spite of the fact that i have the worst singing voice in the world, because:

1. i always show up, enthusiastic and ready to sing for hours at a time without whining.

2. i don't mind rehearsing the night before a show - in fact, i insist on it.

3. i also play guitar, AND lug heavy equipment around.

4. i don't feel the need to babble incessantly between songs

5. i sing the songs exactly the way the writer (me...coincidentally) envisioned them, without whining...

6. i am actually growing, learning and improving as a vocalist

7. i take it seriously...

8. i keep an open mind!

-dh


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

How lucky is our band? Our singer is a great singer and I have no problem saying that he makes the band for us! To top it off, he helps unload, setup and load up all the equipment!

All round great guy!

He's not fond of practices though.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2007)

" He's not fond of practices though."
Can't say I blame him... at the end of the day rehearsals cut into the per/hour rate the band is earning... But if you wanna not suck they've gotta happen sometime.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> " He's not fond of practices though."
> Can't say I blame him... at the end of the day rehearsals cut into the per/hour rate the band is earning... But if you wanna not suck they've gotta happen sometime.


...rehearsals are the ultimate deal-breaker for me. i will never again work with a musician is not as addicted to long rehearsals as i am. i have found a bassist and a drummer who are as "possessed" as i am, and there is no going back.

that said, i don't see much point in rehearsing if all you're playing is covers.

-dh


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Our lead singer is autocratic, somewhat overbearing, and a spotlight hog.


Aren't they all?


(oh, and he's nothing to look at either)

LOL


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...rehearsals are the ultimate deal-breaker for me. i will never again work with a musician is not as addicted to long rehearsals as i am. i have found a bassist and a drummer who are as "possessed" as i am, and there is no going back.
> 
> that said, i don't see much point in rehearsing if all you're playing is covers.
> 
> -dh




Wow.

I really don't se much point in rehearsing if all you're doing is originals. (who's to tell you if you're playing them wrong?)


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

david henman;51714
that said said:


> DH,,thats a pretty ignorant thing to say!! I'm surprised coming from you!! It doesn't matter what type of music your doing. To deliver it with conviction, and polish, requires rehearsal.
> We don't do 'origional' songs, but we do covers like they are ours. And we kick ass doing it.
> 
> CT.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2007)

"I really don't see much point in rehearsing if all you're doing is originals"
98% of originals aren't helped by rehearsal..... no matter how long.


My fav answer to rehearsals is to book a lame Sunday or Tuesday gig, and use that for rehearsal.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2007)

"Eventually a set list will be decided upon."
Set lists?!?! LOL!! That's what I love about the folk-world... we don't fool with no set lists.... We let each show, each different audience lead us to what show we put on.

It's way more fun that.


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## Xanadu (Feb 3, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> How lucky is our band? Our singer is a great singer and I have no problem saying that he makes the band for us! To top it off, he helps unload, setup and load up all the equipment!
> 
> All round great guy!
> 
> He's not fond of practices though.


Our singer plays keys too, and he still doesn't load up equipment:sport-smiley-002:
haha.
But because he plays keys, he pretty much leaves the stage pressence up to me and the guitarist.


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## Xanadu (Feb 3, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> "Eventually a set list will be decided upon."
> Set lists?!?! LOL!! That's what I love about the folk-world... we don't fool with no set lists.... We let each show, each different audience lead us to what show we put on.
> 
> It's way more fun that.


we're pretty much the same way, we put together a rough set list like just before the show, but add songs in and change it up on the fly too.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> "Eventually a set list will be decided upon."
> Set lists?!?! LOL!! That's what I love about the folk-world... we don't fool with no set lists.... We let each show, each different audience lead us to what show we put on. It's way more fun that.


...yeah, that's kind of a given after a few years, but i still use a set list as a "guideline", as well as a way of pacing the set, since i tend to lead the audience, rather than them lead me. different strokes, of course - i would never suggest that works for me should also work for you.

btw, i didn't realize we were talking about the "folk-world" - have i misread this thread?

-dh


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2007)

I have often turned to the guy beside me (He sings harmony, and plays leads and licks on guitar or mando) and have this short conversation, just as we're about to start a gig, 

Me - "Hey... whattaya wanna start with?"

Him - "Star Of The County Down?"

Me - "Naaah... I'm sick of that song..."

Him - "Ireland?"

Me - "I didn't do a vocal warm up yet, so let's do that to end the first set..."

Him - "Country Faire??"

Me - "Ya! Good one! 2... 3...4... "

The song titles, and exact responses may vary.... 

,-)


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

CocoTone said:


> DH,,thats a pretty ignorant thing to say!! I'm surprised coming from you!! It doesn't matter what type of music your doing. To deliver it with conviction, and polish, requires rehearsal.
> We don't do 'origional' songs, but we do covers like they are ours. And we kick ass doing it. CT.



...you ain't gonna git an argument from me, CT. i absolutely crave long, tedious rehearsals, no matter what the material. in fact, the longer and more tedious, the more i enjoy rehearsing.

what i meant was that i understand guys who are playing covers not wanting to rehearse them over and over. but, unlike you, those players generally DO NOT concern themselves with _conviction_ and _polish_.

i much prefer your approach.

-dh


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> I have often turned to the guy beside me (He sings harmony, and plays leads and licks on guitar or mando) and have this short conversation, just as we're about to start a gig,
> Me - "Hey... whattaya wanna start with?"
> Him - "Star Of The County Down?"
> Me - "Naaah... I'm sick of that song..."
> ...



...i've worked with guys like you, clinton and, with all due respect, never again.

simply put, i will never again stand in front of an audience running song titles by my band members until i finally manage to stumble on one that everyone agrees to. 

because, generally speaking, players like that have no problem saying no. coming up with a positive, pro-active suggestion, now that's another matter entirely. in your hypothetical conversation, note that you were that guy.

-dh


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Paul said:


> I'm not a fan of endless rehearsing. Eventually a set list will be decided upon. It's up to everybody to _practice_ their parts on their own time, and come to rehearsals completely prepared. It should take no more than 4 rehearsals to put together a 3 set bar band show. 1 rehearsal for each set, and a 4th to put the whole show together.


...again, and fortunately, i will never again work in a band where the musicians are expected to rehearse on their own time. playing in a band is about playing _together_.

again, whatever spins your bowtie..

-dh


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...you ain't gonna git an argument from me, CT. i absolutely crave long, tedious rehearsals, no matter what the material. in fact, the longer and more tedious, the more i enjoy rehearsing.
> 
> what i meant was that i understand guys who are playing covers not wanting to rehearse them over and over. but, unlike you, those players generally DO NOT concern themselves with _conviction_ and _polish_.
> 
> ...


:rockon::food-smiley-004:


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

Paul said:


> I'm not a fan of endless rehearsing. Eventually a repertoire list will be decided upon. It's up to everybody to _practice_ their parts on their own time, and come to rehearsals completely prepared. It should take no more than 4 rehearsals to put together a 3 set bar band show. 1 rehearsal for each set, and a 4th to put the whole show together.



Thats the difference between a mediocre "barband" and a good, tigth unit, that makes everyone in the room, including the snobby musicians , sit up and take notice. I believe in putting your best foot forward, regerdless of what your doing. I can tell a rehearsed band, and pickup outfit within 8-16 bars.
Its no wonder bar owners don't want to pay more. 

CT.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

CocoTone said:


> Thats the difference between a mediocre "barband" and a good, tigth unit, that makes everyone in the room, including the snobby musicians , sit up and take notice. I believe in putting your best foot forward, regerdless of what your doing. I can tell a rehearsed band, and pickup outfit within 8-16 bars.
> Its no wonder bar owners don't want to pay more. CT.


...to be brutally honest, it may also be at least part of the reason that bar audiences have finally reached the saturation point with old men playing old men songs...badly. not that that's a bad thing - i'm taking advantage of it big time!

in any field, there is no substitute for hard work, dedication and professionalism. not to mention passion.

but..uh...this was about lead singers...so...uh...:wave:

-dh


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## JBassJohn (Feb 19, 2007)

My $0.02...

Our singer plays guitar, keys and harmonica. He owns everything he plays and the P.A. as well. He does his share of the lugging and supplies the practice space. Considering his investment in our band (both in time and money) he can have all the limelight he wants. We play covers and we rehearse 3 or 4 times a month because we like it.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Rehearsals


When putting a new band or songlist together it takes some rehearsal time. Yes, everybody should have their parts prepared but even so it takes weeks of rehearsal to get things to the point where I would put it on stage.

If I'm joining a band already out there gigging, three or four rehearsals will do it.


Assuming the set list is in place and I'm just adding a new tune, it still takes two to three rehearsals before it's up to my expectations and naturally it continues to improve as we gig the tune.

Rehearsals generally last two hours with us. After that it becomes less productive and sometimes even counter productive.

Everybody has different ways to get songs ready for performance, but walking on without some sort of song list as a frame work is something I have never done and have no intention of doing.

Walking on with little or no rehearsal is a level of "I dont give a $hit" that I don't have. 

Different strokes eh?


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

JBassJohn said:


> My $0.02...
> Our singer plays guitar, keys and harmonica. He owns everything he plays and the P.A. as well. He does his share of the lugging and supplies the practice space. Considering his investment in our band (both in time and money) he can have all the limelight he wants. We play covers and we rehearse 3 or 4 times a month because we like it.



...an interesting anecdote (no names because...):

i worked with a well known local singer who also happens to be one of the most entertaining personalities to ever grace a stage - he can engage an audience for days without even singing a note. the drummer at the time noticed that the singer never helped lug gear - in fact, said singer was pretty skilled at getting others (eg the drummer) to lug his congas around.

one day, over a jug of beer, the drummer starting outraging about the singer never lugging gear. i responded "the day that guy starts hefting gear around i'll quit the business and move to new brinswicj to start a fiddlehead farm!"

sometimes you gotta measure the pros vs the cons.

-dh


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2007)

"Walking on with little or no rehearsal is a level of "I dont give a $hit" that I don't have."

Wanna learn? LOL


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> "Walking on with little or no rehearsal is a level of "I dont give a $hit" that I don't have."
> 
> Wanna learn? LOL


No thanks. I've seen and heard the results.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2007)

"Walking on with little or no rehearsal is..."
... Sometimes the truest, and best form of music there ever is... that Unrehearsed, unrecorded jam where everything automajically comes together and everyone hits the pocket at the same time, with the same energy and the same intent. It's something you can't even TRY for though... and you sure as HELL can't REHEARSE to achieve it! LOL

"There is a compositional element involved"
No less than what's involved in covering a song, but yet making it your own.... So that it's not just a bald-faced rip-off.

"learning a song off a record"
Why anyone would ever want to do that, to try to play something EXACTLY like anyone else is beyond me.... How dull.... I suspect THAT has more impact on why bars no-longer wish to pay for live entertainment... When the live stuff just sounds like the CDs, why not save the $$ and play the CDs?


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## Robboman (Oct 14, 2006)

Interesting to see how other bands function internally with regards to rehearsals, set lists etc. Thanks for the posts!

I would describe how me and my band do things, but you can just scroll up a few posts and re-read Milkman's... ditto everything he said. 

Oh, and there's no lead-singeritus diseases here. My bandmates are best friends. I think our collective ego is near zero and we don't have a heck of a lot of stage presence - co-incidence?


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2007)

"writing a song _does_ involve more composition"
I never said there wasn't.... We were talking about ARRANGING.... You said it yourself "coming up with an arrangement of an original song"... 

Do try to keep up with the conversation, eh... especially the bits YOU'VE added!

LOL

"I'm not sure how you could possibly suggest otherwsise"(sic)
I'd never do any such thing... I envy people who can write a good song... And I appreciate the work they put into crafting their songs.... Fortunately (Or Un, depending on your intent with their art) they're far and few between.. 


"Clint the Contrarian"
Who's "Clint"? And I'd rather be a contarian than a childish slinger of ad hominem...

"My bandmates are best friends."
Seen the movie "Pray For Rock & Roll"??

Near the end is a damn good quote

At the end of the day
When all is said and done
You got your band
You got your friends
You got your family
and if you're really lucky
They're all one and the same!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> In my experience, coming up with an arrangement of an original song takes a lot more time and a lot more "hashing out" than simply learning a song off a record. There is a compositional element involved, rather than it just being a matter of learning the parts that someone else played. And it's not that difficult, to me at least, to tell when a band has worked hard on ironing out an original song as compared to just pulling one out of their asses that they havn't spent sufficient time with.
> 
> As for lead singers, yah, they're a pain in the ass. But so are drummers and bass players. And guitar players, for that matter.



When we do an original I bring in a song that's more or less complete including a basic arrangement.

Rehearsals are to tighten a band up. Writing is a totally different function IMO, whether you wite as a band or individually.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2007)

"I don't feel like getting drawn into this with you."
Drawn into what? Last time I looked we were talking here... Why are your panties in a wad?

In the words of George Carlin... "Calm down... Have some dip."


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## esp_dsp (Feb 27, 2007)

no matter what i still say lead singers a tools....

as for a set list and everything i like to have some idea of whats going to be played... my band sets one out but if im diggin a different tune or feeling i different vibe or one of my band mates are then we change it on the go...

and as to my band and me being friend yea we hang out almost everyday whether its to pratice or just hang out its just what ever we want...


but i suppose every band is different and every player is different in almost every way from how they pratice or how often to how they thing the gig should go... oh well just how it is these days:rockon2:


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

if you're jealous of your singer getting all the attention, it means you need to step up your game. one of my favourite bands was my favourite because ALL the guys moved. everyone jumped, moved their guitars around, sang into the mic at some point during each song.

if you dont have stage presence, then you cant really complain about a singer who DOES move around etc getting the attention. at our last show, i was headbanging more and moving my guitar around, even jumped a bit - people noticed.

bottom line: if you want to be seen, move.


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## peter benn (Mar 29, 2007)

Maybe this sub-thread about rehearsals and set lists is comparing apples and oranges. Maybe there are (at least) three types of bands, no matter what genre: jam bands, pickup bands, and show bands.

IMHO, jam bands don't rehearse more than a skeleton set. Unless they have achieved critical mass (like the Greatful Dead, etc.) or are composed of superstars, they can be either boring to watch or too technical (lacking "story").

Pickup bands exist to fulfill a gig and get paid. Often formed in a hurry with known great players, they usually do the most common 30 cover tunes in a given genre. There's not much "story" here, either, unless you're new to seeing bands in that genre.

Show bands (again IMHO) have some sort of thematic narrative to get across, whether in originals or in unusual covers. Often the soloing elements will be limited -- think early Elvis Costello/Attractions. Joining a band like this requires the most rehearsal, given a pre-existing and comparable level of technical ability among the players. 

There are easy covers that everyone already knows, and there are the more obscure and/or difficult. There are people writing "originals" that sound exactly like "Matchbox" and there are originals that follow no preset form and are composed entirely of "step-ons."

Imagine the first bass player that tried to follow Steve Earle's "Guitar Town." It's only country!

And audiences are sometimes not in the mood for the pre-planned story your set list represents. You do sometimes have to change on the fly, but it was a good thing you wrote it -- you can come back to it again and look like you're in charge.

Just MHO, folks. Please, everyone, have a relaxing long weekend....


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## esp_dsp (Feb 27, 2007)

its not that i was jealous of him or anything but a perfect band should share the spot light... light rush! when alex solos its all eyes on him when geddy sings or plays the opening keyboard or synth riffs its all on him and when they break down for that crazy neil pert drum solo its all eyes on him but what ever im passed it moved on band died everyone stopped wanted to pratice it sucks.. but oh well on the quest for a new band any takers?


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## Guest (Aug 4, 2007)

I can't imagine many people wanting to be in any band with someone who said that, "no matter what i still say lead singers a tools...."


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

esp_dsp said:


> its not that i was jealous of him or anything but a perfect band should share the spot light... light rush! when alex solos its all eyes on him when geddy sings or plays the opening keyboard or synth riffs its all on him and when they break down for that crazy neil pert drum solo its all eyes on him ....
> 
> 
> > You hit the nail right on the head - spotlight. There is nothing like a follow spot to draw attention to something on a stage.
> ...


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## adamthemute (Jun 18, 2007)

Form a post-rock band. No singers needed!


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Maybe a lot of lead singers' egos are so far up their ass, it would take two weeks at warp 8 before it saw daylight again,... assuming it would want to come out? I don't know, just a thought.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> Sometimes the truest, and best form of music there ever is... that Unrehearsed, unrecorded jam where everything automajically comes together and everyone hits the pocket at the same time, with the same energy and the same intent. It's something you can't even TRY for though... and you sure as HELL can't REHEARSE to achieve it! LOL


...very few would argue with that. you can't rehearse "magic".

my contention, however, is that "magic" is a thousand times more likely to happen in a band that is well-rehearsed, than in a band that can't be bothered or thinks that it doesn't need to rehearse.

-dh


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

david henman said:


> ...very few would argue with that. you can't rehearse "magic".
> 
> my contention, however, is that "magic" is a thousand times more likely to happen in a band that is well-rehearsed, than in a band that can't be bothered or thinks that it doesn't need to rehearse.
> 
> -dh


That is the truth :rockon:


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

Regarding the OP, vocalists and other "frontman" types tend to need large personalities to do what they do. Especially if they want to do it well. If you play for a "personality", as opposed to being in a band, you will quickly find this out. They have definite opinions on how everything is to happen on stage and it is all geared towards making them look good and the music sound just right. Best thing to do is to keep an open mind and learn from all the good things they do to make the show memorable for the audience. In a band situation they are the ones that are getting you the gigs and while they can be difficult to work with at times (I have two of them in the band I play in) they are worth it. In fact, their vision often makes for useful input when setting strategies for the band. If you don't like that scenario there are other musical situations that may be more suited to a more democratic band process such as trios and duets. 

My $0.02 worth....:food-smiley-004:


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

FenderMan said:


> Regarding the OP, vocalists and other "frontman" types tend to need large personalities to do what they do. Especially if they want to do it well. If you play for a "personality", as opposed to being in a band, you will quickly find this out. They have definite opinions on how everything is to happen on stage and it is all geared towards making them look good and the music sound just right. Best thing to do is to keep an open mind and learn from all the good things they do to make the show memorable for the audience. In a band situation they are the ones that are getting you the gigs and while they can be difficult to work with at times (I have two of them in the band I play in) they are worth it. In fact, their vision often makes for useful input when setting strategies for the band. If you don't like that scenario there are other musical situations that may be more suited to a more democratic band process such as trios and duets.
> My $0.02 worth....:food-smiley-004:




...good point. great artists and entertainers tend not to be "normal".

i recently watched a documentary on bruce (last name escapes me), a hollywood comedy writer who over the years has worked with all the greats, from phyllis diller and joan rivers to billy crystal and robin williams. you would rememeber him from hollywood squares - he was an extremely large man with a reddish blonde beard and curly hair and always wore garrish hawaiian shirts and bizarre glasses.

he explained that for people of that stature and talent and drive, _it is all about them_, inherently. 

in my experience, guys like bryan adams, bruce springsteen, barry gibb, celine dion and others whom i have met come across full of humility and enthusiasm- in public! but i'm willing to bet they are a handful when they are dealing with managers, publicists, lawyers, producers etc etc etc, not to mention bandmates.

-dh

_some see the glass as half full, some see it as half empty. i see the glass as being twice as big as necessary._


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Everybody really seems to be talking about the need for teamwork, with a mix of different talents and personalities on the team.

Front folks are SUPPOSED to be self-centred! That's why we have them! How can you expect an audience to want to give attention to someone who doesn't expecially want it themselves?

At the same time, the best bands are the ones where ALL the players contribute their share to the show! The front man is responsible for the lion's share of the load but not all of it! Having "tree trunks" playing behind him is boring, boring, boring...:zzz:

This would seem to apply to pretty well everything besides bands where people have to get along to get things accomplished. A team of players all the same might do more work than just one player but its not likely they could handle anything new or different to them.

The trick is in having the maturity to let the player with the skills best suited for the current situation take the lead.

Some of us should think about it the next time they think everyone should vote, eat, dress and listen to the same type of music as they do!

Especially you lefties! Would you really want a world where all we could listen to was Bob Rae on his piano, singing his only song "We're in the Same Boat Now!"?

Nothing but "Ned Flanders" running everything as far as the eye can see!

Scarier than "3D House of Stewardesses"!

:food-smiley-004:


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Scarier than "3D House of Stewardesses"!
> 
> :food-smiley-004:



Is it available on DVD !?!?!?!


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I never had a problem with the two lead singers I worked. Both had the stage charisma. We worked well together. I know there were some interpersonal conflicts, but that was just normal personality clashes.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Especially you lefties! Would you really want a world where all we could listen to was Bob Rae on his piano, singing his only song "We're in the Same Boat Now!"?



...ya forgot to include birkenstocks, granola and old beaters.

-dh


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## MelD (Jun 22, 2007)

*Lead Singer Problems*

A usual issue especially for new bands getting together. Once you've got across your ego's theres a good ride ahead. AC/DC, Metallica to name a few...


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## Michelle (Aug 21, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> .................
> Especially you lefties! Would you really want a world where all we could listen to was Bob Rae on his piano, singing his only song "We're in the Same Boat Now!"?
> 
> Nothing but "Ned Flanders" running everything as far as the eye can see! ....


Oh, I hope you mean political lefties! Ned Flanders gives great discredit to real lefties. We are the revolutionaries!

Back to topic;

To quote Jung; "like cures like", if you want to cure someone of LSD, well.....

:wave:


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

If the lead singer gets most of the attention... you're not shredding fast enough, . Draw the attention to you... play with your teeth... behind your head... behind your back... between the legs... lol.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Learn to sing and/or accept the reality that singers are the focal point of pretty much ANY band.


With this "glory" comes a lot of pressure.


It ain't easy.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...ya forgot to include birkenstocks, granola and old beaters.
> 
> -dh


No I didn't, David.

I happen to LIKE birkenstocks, granola and old beaters!:smile:

I've said it again and again: Most of us don't disagree on the end goal, just on how practical is the suggested method of getting us there!

Or the unintended consequences if the suggestion is not well thought out...

:food-smiley-004:


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Michelle said:


> Oh, I hope you mean political lefties! Ned Flanders gives great discredit to real lefties. We are the revolutionaries!
> 
> Back to topic;
> 
> ...


Of course! Political lefties tend to be control freaks. They can't get most of their fellow citizens to support them out of agreement for their thinking so sooner or later they get tempted by the Dark Side and use force or trickery to impose their thinking.

It's a conspiracy, don't you know?

Seriously, not being able to laugh at oneself is a sure sign of having snakes living under your hat. The sense of humour is the first to go with many forms of mental illness. When I tweak a lefty's nose I'm often testing to see if he can appreciate a joke...

I use Ned Flanders as an example not of being left-handed but as someone who if they were running the show would make the world so bland and boring that many of us would rather slash our wrists than live in such a manner.

At least unlike Rae he never sang a stupid song with a poor singing voice, as far as I can remember.

:food-smiley-004:


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2007)

There's only one thing worse than Political lefties.... 

Political righties....


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

ClintonHammond said:


> There's only one thing worse than Political lefties....
> 
> Political righties....


Extremists of all types are pretty much intolerable IMO.


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## Michelle (Aug 21, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> ..........
> Seriously, not being able to laugh at oneself is a sure sign of having snakes living under your hat. The sense of humour is the first to go with many forms of mental illness. ............


Ah-ha! I learned something new, the part about no sense of humor being indicative of a mental illness, yes, makes sense. There's folks like that around here, work I mean. Psychopaths on prozac, they demand to be first, have a distorted world-view, have unreasonable expectations, threaten you, nag you, and when you give them the reality of it all, they go to you boss and whine, try to get you fired. And they have no sense of humor until they get what they want, then they're all gushy and obnoxious which is a false sense of humor.

I figured you meant lefty politicos and I guess I am privileged to have not heard Rae sing, sounds as bad as 'rooney and ray-gun. I don't align myself with any political party or ideology, except maybe the Marijuana Party.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> No I didn't, David.
> I happen to LIKE birkenstocks, granola and old beaters!:smile:
> I've said it again and again: Most of us don't disagree on the end goal, just on how practical is the suggested method of getting us there!
> Or the unintended consequences if the suggestion is not well thought out...
> :food-smiley-004:



...just goin' for a bit of humour, bill.

seriously, however, i find myself identifying with the left less and less these days. and the right wants to divide us all into groups, the easier to persecute.

i'm joining michelle's marijuana party!

-dh


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

jroberts said:


> It's amazing how some people can turn absolutely _any_ topic into a rant about "lefties".



...you have a point, jr, but we should celebrate the fact that we have a certain amount of leeway to speak our minds here without a war erupting, or constant warnings from the mods. the tgp has become so politically correct, you get banned for just looking like a lefty!

i hope we continue to allow each other a bit of elbow room here. 

bill and i disagree passionately on a number of issues, and yet we are planning to meet soon to :food-smiley-004: a few.

-dh


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## Guest (Aug 8, 2007)

"Extremists of all types are pretty much intolerable"
And fence-sitters are just as bad!

LOL


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

ClintonHammond said:


> "Extremists of all types are pretty much intolerable"
> And fence-sitters are just as bad!
> 
> LOL


So true! But you have to admit that people of the far side of anything are a little off. I personally cherish the fact we have some of the left and some of the right in this country. It provides many benefits and some great checks and balances. It nice to be able to disagree without getting killed for it (as David said).


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2007)

ClintonHammond said:


> There's only one thing worse than Political lefties....
> 
> Political righties....


"As individuals we're intelligent, as a people, we're stupid"
quote source unknown


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...just goin' for a bit of humour, bill.
> 
> seriously, however, i find myself identifying with the left less and less these days. and the right wants to divide us all into groups, the easier to persecute.
> 
> ...


There's a new term called "statist", or "statism" which refers to the idea that the state should tell everyone what to do about pretty much anything. It transcends the traditional definitions of left and right.

Me, I've still got enough hippy left in me that I get very uncomfortable with someone's idea on telling a neighbour how to live his life. It seems to be getting more and more popular these days. 

That's my libertarian streak showing, I guess. I find it ironic when I'm mistaken for a conservative. Shows how far we've drifted from the dictionary definitions over the years.

Anyhow, let's hear it for Michelle's Marijuana Party! I'm in!

I miss the Rhino Party! They had some great ideas, like letting Quebec separate to shorten the drive to Halifax. Or knocking over the CN Tower to use its elevators for rapid transit to help the congestion on the QEW!

Long ago, CFNY had a morning show team called Pete and Geets. I've never forgotten how one election they were offering bumperstickers which said: "Don't Vote! You'll only encourage them!"

Back then it seemed that laughing made it easier...:smile:

:food-smiley-004:


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

I don't know about the Marijuana Party but I am all for having a party! :rockon2::food-smiley-004:


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

Wild Bill said:


> There's a new term called "statist", or "statism" which refers to the idea that the state should tell everyone what to do about pretty much anything. It transcends the traditional definitions of left and right.
> 
> Me, I've still got enough hippy left in me that I get very uncomfortable with someone's idea on telling a neighbour how to live his life. It seems to be getting more and more popular these days.


This one really bugs me  and because it is so insidious it really scares the bejesus out of me. I tend to be on the conservative side but it seems to come from all quarters. Maybe Michael Moore is right in saying that we, through political correctness, have given it all away. Reminds me of the old maxim: "Power is given away, not taken".


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...on other forums, we'd all be lambasted for taking this thread so far off topic.

:food-smiley-004:

-dh


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

jroberts said:


> ...and with good reason. It becomes tiring when certain people use every opportunity to hijack threads on a guitar forum into discussions about political topics. That's why most guitar forums have rules against that. I also don't think that harping on the same topic over and over again does anything to advance discourse.
> Maybe there should be a sticky topic at the top of the forum titled "Lefty Liberals are Ruining the World" and everyone with something to contribute to that discussion could post there. :food-smiley-004:



..."lefty" liberals are the worst kind! 

-dh


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## MelD (Jun 22, 2007)

*political jabs*

oh boy, here we go again


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

esp_dsp said:


> lol well my headstocks rounded =( lol


You used to watch cartoons when you were a kid, right? Remember Quick Draw McGraw's alter-ego?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49lFPyzTfjw


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Let's see if We can steer this one back on course.


Lead singers who don't play instruments generally don't get as much respect from "musicians" as those who do.

Personally I think all singers should play at least one instrument. It's fine if they don't have a guitar strapped on all night, but there are lots of songs that need a little extra in the way of instrumentation.

The singers who pull their weight have more credibility IMO.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Let's see if We can steer this one back on course.
> 
> 
> Lead singers who don't play instruments generally don't get as much respect from "musicians" as those who do.


Yeah, maybe so but I'm not sure if the audience would agree with the musicians!

It's hard to have the independence to play well, sing well and do a good job of front work, all at the same time. Over the years I think most bar bands have been forced into that kind of a lineup simply 'cuz the pay is too low to have another cut just for a singer!

The problem for the audience is that they often are getting a poorer show. Not always, of course. We've all seen some magnificent guitarist/singer/front men but it sure was easier in the old days with a dedicated front/vocalist.

'Course, it was easier then 'cuz bars actually PAID musicians!

:food-smiley-004:


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Lead singers who don't play instruments generally don't get as much respect from "musicians" as those who do.


I like a versatile singers. It's nice to be able to shove an acoustic into their hands for a little more texture. But if they're singing on key and holding the audience's attention they're as much a musician as anyone else in the band. I think the problem is singers who think they can sing and don't need to practice singing. Those people get no respect from me at all because they don't treat their pipes like an instrument.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Yeah, maybe so but I'm not sure if the audience would agree with the musicians!
> 
> It's hard to have the independence to play well, sing well and do a good job of front work, all at the same time. Over the years I think most bar bands have been forced into that kind of a lineup simply 'cuz the pay is too low to have another cut just for a singer!
> 
> ...


Well it depends on the singer I suppose, but to me a four piece band has MUCH more in terms of harmonic structure when all four guys are playing and hopefully all four are singing as well.

Just my personal opinion of course, but I think ALL musicians should sing to one extent or another.

Putting on a show is NOT the exclusive domain of the lead singer who only sings.

If all you do is play one instrument or sing you'd better be an absolute monster and even then I think the audience is getting short changed.


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