# Is it cheating if I don't memorize notes in scale, but know chord shapes?



## mozilla2004 (Nov 1, 2020)

I'm still learning...but I'm curious if the way I'm learning is considered "cheating" or will develop bad habits.

When it comes to scales, I only memorized the notes of the major scale for C, D and G. If you asked me what are the notes for the natural minor or harmonic minor scale, I'd need to work it out on pencil and paper. And if you asked me to work out the notes for the other major scales, I'd also have to work it out on paper.

However, I find that I can easily transpose songs from one key to another without thinking too much about what all the notes are. If something is in G major, I can move it over to A major, because all the handshape stay the same. And if I had to compose a small chord progression in E harmonic minor, I can transpose it over to C harmonic minor, because hand shapes are the same.

And I also memorized these triad sequences for each scale (I think I'm describe chord number functions?)
*major scale goes* : major minor minor major major minor diminished,
*natural minor scale goes*: minor diminished major minor minor major major
*harmonic minor scale goes*: minor diminished augmented minor major major diminished

I have those triad sequences memorized, so when composing something, it seems like I can do it in any key as long as I keep the pattern. Hence, I don't think in terms of notes, and would need a few seconds to actually think out what note I actually played.

Is this a bad thing?


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Who cares what the name of the note is? All that matters is if it sounds good.

As long as you can hear if the note works or doesn’t you’ll be fine


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

No such thing as cheating in music.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

There's no right way to play guitar. Do you think Neil Young sits around practicing scales? I was the lead guitarist in bands for seven years and don't know how to play any scales. I just memorize patterns through trial and error.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

You are doing fine. The things you have learned are very useful as you have found out. If you learn more, that will be useful as well. 

Al DiMeola says you need to be able to play the notes, name the notes and read the notes all at the same time while you are performing. *If you want to be at that level.* 

I don't. I am a happy amateur.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

When I was in grade six someone taught me how to play a major scale in open position and the pattern to use if starting the same scale somewhere up the neck. I don’t think knowing that has made any difference. I just learned patterns through trial and error as mentioned above and fish around for what sounds right.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

The question is, "Who would you be cheating?" 

If you don't have a problem with it, why should anyone else? There is an argument for knowing all of the names, especially around communicating with other musicians, but if it's not adversely affecting your own goals, who cares?


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

bw66 said:


> especially around communicating with other musicians


Agree. I played in bands where the other musicians only knew finger shapes. It works, but it is limiting.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Some other members already clearly expressed there is not only one way here.

You may have begun with classical guitar lessons reading the staff or with popular songbooks with only chord names over lyrics.

I began with these fakebooks, learning new chord shapes whenever needed. Wanted to know more about chords and had to read scales theory : Discovered we learn simple chord shapes in the open position some being inversions without knowing anything about these principles ! Turned to fingerstyle and wanted to apply scales theory as well as learning to climb chord shapes up the neck with the so called CAGED system. Discovered pentatonic scales are kings and if you have the root and know your minor and major chord shapes, you know where are your major and minor third.

I cannot name all the notes, but I can see where I am on the neck and figure out what chord shape I am near to.

But when I play sight reading a tablature, nothing I wrote up here matters ! I play my guitars the same way some paint on numbers : who really cares ?

Theory matters if you want to understand how music can be thought about and if you want to write some music, but you probably can do so by ear too.

So, you are not a cheater, just another wandering amateur that enjoy playing music : That is all that matters, ain't it ?!


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## Trevor Giancola (Jan 30, 2017)

It’s cheating...but it might not matter


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

In the studio the other day, the guitar player (a smart guy who knows all his scales and chord structures, inversions etc) was working on the melody for a song. In the first two verses the song went from a minor to another minor (not exactly like, but think Light My Fire). In the last verse it changed from minor to a minor, to a major (same key) to the same minor as before. Nothing he played sounded right. The keyboard player (trained in pretty well every style and general theory) suggested starting the melody in a minor scale, before switching to the major scale (if you're in C, start on the flat3/Eb.) He understood the dominant sound in the air was still a minor and needed to be played again and restate the theme, before changing. It worked. Every piece of knowledge is valuable and is money in the bank.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Heard Joe Walsh say in an interview “you don’t need to read music for what I do.” But clearly he knows his way around a fretboard.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Wardo said:


> Heard Joe Walsh say in an interview “you don’t need to read music for what I do.” But clearly he knows his way around a fretboard.


... and he can probably read music well enough (he was minoring in Music at Kent State before dropping out after the shootings) even if he doesn't "need" to.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

bw66 said:


> ... and he can probably read music well enough (he was minoring in Music at Kent State before dropping out after the shootings) even if he doesn't "need" to.


Yeah, and he said that when he played oboe in an orchestra everyone tuned off his A and they all got progressively flatter because he was too was too lazy to maintain a good embouchure .. lol


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

Learn to read the charts you'll most likely use a lot. It makes it easier to play with other players, especially if you don't know the song. As to using your ears… your brain really should know what you're playing, otherwise it's noodling.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

Absolutely! I cheetah all the time.









The guitar has a couple of benefits: it's shape-based and great for changing keys. Might as well take advantage, because there are lots of drawbacks to playing the equivalent of six pianos at once.


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

Guitar players can "get by" with less knowledge than say a horn player.

If you are playing a song in G and someone suggests trying it in G#, a guitar player can use a capo or shift everything up a fret using Barr chords. A horn player learns to mentally transpose and execute. 
Is this cheating? No. Whatever works. Essentially, guitar players are the kid who never memorized the times tables.

Like Doug Gifford says, learn to read a chart. If you play with other people, this is a valuable skill.

Even better, Learn to write a chart. By "chart" I mean Nashville, I, IV, V ..., bars, repeats etc.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

tonewoody said:


> .... Essentially, guitar players are the kid who never memorized the times tables.


Pretty good analogy. 

And it always seemed to me that horn players wanted to use some nasty key that I didn't like .. lol


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## Cardamonfrost (Dec 12, 2018)

Not cheating. Eventually you will hear what scale degree it is anyways. I know a lot of musicians that think in scale degree numbers because they relate to what you hear instead of note names, that mean nothing.
C


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

There is a sense in which you could be cheating yourself--but not necessarily--as pointed out it's music.

Here's the thing though--learning theory, scales, etc can be a real helpful thing--and I would never discourage anybody from learning them.

However having said that--when you play it's time to just play and not think about all that stuff.


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## gabriel.335 (Nov 26, 2020)

Here's a quote from John McLaughlin I read years ago and it stuck with me. I'm still shite at all but he most common scales/modes but I like having a vague idea of where I'm going related to the song's structure. Do you need this, probably not. Depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.

_"I practice all the scales. Everyone should know lots of scales. Actually, I feel there are only scales. What is a chord, if not the notes of a scale hooked together? There are several reasons for learning scales: one, the knowledge will unlock the neck for you -- you'll learn the instrument; second, if I say I want you to improvise over Gmaj7+5, then go to Eaug9-5, then to bmaj7-5 --well, if you don't know, what those chords are in scale terms, you're lost. It's not all that difficult, but you have to be ready to apply yourself"_...Denyer, Ralph (2002). _The Guitar Handbook_. p. 114. ISBN 0-679-74275-1.


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## Permanent Waves (Jun 2, 2020)

I think if you know the mode patterns, important scales and chord shapes, you are way ahead of the game and already above the average guitarist's fretboard knowledge. I also think in terms of intervals and visual fretboard patterns rather than note names. I think it takes some amazing powers of abstraction for someone to be able to rattle off all the notes from any scale in any key off the top of their heads. They say people with strong math skills do well in music, and that seems to be an application of that kind of brain power. 

I've read advice from virtuosos like John McLaughlin, Al DiMeola and Robert Fripp who basically say you should know every note of any scale you are playing on the fretboard, but they also say "you really need to apply yourself". That is a herculean task, especially for someone who has a day job and only playing as an amateur. Sounds to me like a good retirement project to keep the dementia from settling in, but given the limited time I can spend on the craft in the average week, I'm going to have to settle for memorizing patterns for now.


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## Permanent Waves (Jun 2, 2020)

gabriel.335 said:


> Here's a quote from John McLaughlin I read years ago and it stuck with me. I'm still shite at all but he most common scales/modes but I like having a vague idea of where I'm going related to the song's structure. Do you need this, probably not. Depends on how far down the rabbit hole you want to go.
> 
> _"I practice all the scales. Everyone should know lots of scales. Actually, I feel there are only scales. What is a chord, if not the notes of a scale hooked together? There are several reasons for learning scales: one, the knowledge will unlock the neck for you -- you'll learn the instrument; second, if I say I want you to improvise over Gmaj7+5, then go to Eaug9-5, then to bmaj7-5 --well, if you don't know, what those chords are in scale terms, you're lost. It's not all that difficult, but you have to be ready to apply yourself"_...Denyer, Ralph (2002). _The Guitar Handbook_. p. 114. ISBN 0-679-74275-1.


Ha ha! We thought of the same quote at the same time . That Denyer book is priceless, I've had the first edition for almost 30 years. There's another quote on the same page that I really love, typical serious acumen mixed with dry wit that is pure Robert Fripp:

"With a note of music, one strikes the fundamental, and, in addition to the root note, other notes are generated: these are called the harmonic series... As one fundamental note contains within it other notes in the octave, two fundamentals produce a remarkable array of harmonics, and the number of possible combinations between all the notes increases phenomenally. With a triad, affairs stand a good chance of getting severely out of hand..."


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## DrumBob (Aug 17, 2014)

Guncho said:


> There's no right way to play guitar. Do you think Neil Young sits around practicing scales? I was the lead guitarist in bands for seven years and don't know how to play any scales. I just memorize patterns through trial and error.


This a correct assertion, and there is no right or wrong way to play guitar, but it doesn't hurt to have a better knowledge of the fretboard.

As they say, knowledge is power.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

Grab n Go said:


> Absolutely! I cheetah all the time.
> View attachment 354945
> 
> 
> The guitar has a couple of benefits: it's shape-based and great for changing keys. Might as well take advantage, because there are lots of drawbacks to playing the equivalent of six pianos at once.


One string pianos?

You're right about the changing keys, though. There are a few uncomfortable positions around the first and second fret, but generally, transposing is as simple as moving up or down the neck. Or using a capo even.

Here's a great player who plays with horns and (gasp!) uses a capo. Works for him.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

I dont think it is.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

If you are going go play with other musicians it is helpful if you know what the chords are in a key and where they are all over the neck. Knowing how to play the scales based on the chord shapes is also useful. Don’t get too carried away with scales though. They are useful for practice and writing songs. When playing with other musicians you probably won’t be playing a lot of scales.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

Doug Gifford said:


> One string pianos?


More the idea that each string is its own piano. The frets are the keys. I think Pat Martino describes the guitar as a system of multiplication. The benefit, and drawback, is that there's often more than one way to play a given note. It makes sightreading and learning the neck tricky but it also gives us lots of options.


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## YaReMi (Mar 9, 2006)

It's all individual.
I've been playing guitar for 50+ years now. When I was learning, all by listening (not a single lesson) to JB Lenoir, Lightning Hopkins and later Peter Green or Mike Bloomfield (and many others), I played nothing but pentatonic scale in all possible 'boxed' positions. I was bending notes just like my heroes and then moving laterally between boxes and started adding notes that seemed to fit in-between. My pentatonic playing is now a scale I can not even name. I'm happy with that.
I think that learning new scales would change my style of playing and I don't want to change anything.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

mozilla2004 said:


> I'm still learning...but I'm curious if the way I'm learning is considered "cheating" or will develop bad habits.
> 
> When it comes to scales, I only memorized the notes of the major scale for C, D and G. If you asked me what are the notes for the natural minor or harmonic minor scale, I'd need to work it out on pencil and paper. And if you asked me to work out the notes for the other major scales, I'd also have to work it out on paper.
> 
> ...



Stop overthinking and just play the thing.


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## American_League (Jun 30, 2020)

Music is the language of God. There is no such thing as cheating. Express yourself, and leave it at God's doorstep. With luck, your fellow man (human), will relate to it. Music is universal and at the same time extremely personal. It is your input to the cosmos. Be free with it....... I think I just found by internal HIPPY!


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## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

Since this thread has quickly decayed into whether or not theory is important, I will make a general statement:

The more you can educate yourself as a musician, the better you off you'll be. It doesn't matter whether we are talking about chops, theory, developing your ear, experience playing in bands, or going out and watching other musicians play. It all takes time and work, and it's up to you (and ideally a teacher) to help you determine what your priorities should be. Part of maturing as a musician is recognizing what really matters in a given situation, and it's really easy to obsess over things that will give you a poor return of your investment. My advice is to find an instructor who you trust to guide you, and let them direct your focus.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Learn from all sorts of sources-nobody is totally self taught--whetehr formal lessons, books,magazines, videos, jamming, friends, etc--we all pick up some of it from others--and some of itwe put together ourselves.
As a student I had teachers who encourage me to learn things outside of the lessons, and as a teacher I encouraged it as well.

but yeah--when it's time to play--you just play--btu learning all that stuff helped.

When I'm playing I don't think of the theory or stuff like that


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