# Victoria stafford



## satim (Mar 23, 2006)

Please have a look

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090413/national/missing_girl

http://news.google.ca/news?hl=en&q=...eUsrm0CQ&sa=X&oi=news_group&resnum=1&ct=title


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I pray that they find this girl alive and healthy. My daughter and grand daughter knew her before they moved from Woodstock to Ingersoll. Has there been an Amber alert? There was a little girl somewhere in the states a couple of weeks ago that dissapeared and they were reluctant to sound an amber alert saying it wasn't necessary. She was found in a suitcase murdered.
When it comes to disapearing children every action possible should be taken. An 8 year old missing for this long is not good. Rarely do these things end happy. But hopefully a miracle will happen and this will be one of those rare times where it does end happy.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

In my heart I know this is rare, but when I hear about stories like this it scares the hell out of me and breaks my faith in our shared society. May she find her way home unharmed and at peace.


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## satim (Mar 23, 2006)

I posted this for as many people to see and pass on. Please paste the link or any of the links you can find on her and post it in any other forums you are part of.


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## bscott (Mar 3, 2008)

The police dropped the ball on this one BIG TIME. To hell with meeting "the criteria". That whole scenario is just wrong. Girl, child, whatever, missing put out the amber alert. I am very angry about this "criteria" for an amber alert thing. The girl is most likely long gone, to wherever, by now. 
Police needed to know as soon as possible. If the alert was issued in error or the girl showed up shortly thereafter then you can always cancel it. But, by Sunday - there is no way they will find her. 
This makes me very sad as well.

Brian


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

bscott said:


> The police dropped the ball on this one BIG TIME. To hell with meeting "the criteria". That whole scenario is just wrong. Girl, child, whatever, missing put out the amber alert. I am very angry about this "criteria" for an amber alert thing. The girl is most likely long gone, to wherever, by now.
> Police needed to know as soon as possible. If the alert was issued in error or the girl showed up shortly thereafter then you can always cancel it. But, by Sunday - there is no way they will find her.
> This makes me very sad as well.
> 
> Brian


I whole heartedly agree. The same thing happened with 8 year old Sandra Cantu from California, who went missing on March 27th. No amber alert was sounded and she was found Monday, April 8th, dead in a suitcase.
Since this case happened so close to the disappearance of Victoria Stafford you'd think law enforcement would have learned something here. When a child goes missing pull out all the stops.


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## kw_guitarguy (Apr 29, 2008)

This is from the following link: I am only posting this as info, I was curious as to what the criteria is for an Amber Alert...

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/omc-ned/news-nouv/amber-eng.htm

"*Criteria for Activating AMBER Alert

Police have confirmed that an abduction has occurred.
The victim is a child under 18(but may vary dependant of provincial law), also some jurisdiction include if the victim is an adult of proven mental or physical disability.
There is reason to believe the victim is in danger of serious bodily injury.
There is information available that, if disseminated to the general public, could assist in the safe recovery of the victim, (ie: description of suspect's vehicle, lic. plate number, suspect is known).
If the above criteria is not met, the AMBER Alert should not be activated"*


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Whats so stupid is that they feel she must know the person because she walked of willingly. Did it ever occur to the police that the person was maybe a skilled predator that lied to the little girl to gain her trust?


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## bscott (Mar 3, 2008)

Slavery is still alive and well in this world of ours. That is just one of the many twisted reasons people stalk/abduct/torture/kill children. Every child in this world needs to be considered your own child. They need us to show them the way.

Brian


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## satim (Mar 23, 2006)

Please keep to the intent of the post. I did not post this for people to get into a debate of who did what or what they didn't do. She is still missing and the smallest thig could help find her.



*http://news.google.ca/news?hl=en&q=...McS4kYEJ&sa=X&oi=news_group&resnum=1&ct=title*


http://lfpress.ca/cgi-bin/publish.cgi?p=262517&x=articles&s=societe


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## satim (Mar 23, 2006)

Keep focus on little girl, expert urges
Kathy Rumleski 
London Free Press 
April 13, 2009 

A child safety expert and former London police officer is urging the public and media to keep a keen focus on the search for missing eight-year-old Victoria (Tori) Stafford.


Victoria (Tori) Stafford 


"People, don't forget about it," pleaded Samantha Wilson, founder and president of Kidproof Canada/U.S.A., based in Surrey, B.C. 

"Let's not stop talking about this. Let's just keep talking about it." 

*She also suggested the public keep working the social networking tools such as Twitter and Facebook. *
Two Facebook groups are already in place, both called "Help Find Victoria Stafford." One of them has 17,000 members. 

*"Here's an opportunity when we can use all of these online connections positively," Wilson said. *

She is dismayed the story is not getting more attention across the country. 

Time is of the essence when it comes to finding missing children, Wilson said, but no one should give up hope. 

She also said she believes police made the right call in not issuing an Amber Alert.


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## satim (Mar 23, 2006)

*America's Most Wanted Missing Children*

A new link 

http://www.amw.com/missing_children/brief.cfm?id=64826


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## satim (Mar 23, 2006)

AMW Missing DATA FILE FOR 
Victoria Stafford 



8

4/8/09

Web Exclusive 

Canadian Cops: Girl's Disappearance Now Classified As Abduction 
Since Victoria "Tori" Stafford disappeared on April 8, 2009, cops in Woodstock, Ontario have been working to locate the missing 8-year-old. Now, a province-wide police agency has joined the investigation, and authorities have called off a ground search -- believing, they say, that the girl has been abducted. 

>>The Full Story
More Missing Canadian Children:

>>Canadians Mark Anniversary Of Girl's Disappearance

>>After Eight Years, Missouri Man Branson Perry Still Missing


Last updated: April 18 2009 




End The Silence For Sexual Assault Awareness Month 
White Supremacist Cop Killer Tanya Smith Sentenced
Cops: Scammer Steals $400k+ From Federal Government
Alleged "Black Mafia Family" Drug Thug Nabbed


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## satim (Mar 23, 2006)

BTT 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6FyN3Ct1Kg


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## Younggun (Jul 2, 2008)

From a young person's point of view I was very disappointed with the way the Police handled this matter from the beginning. I support our Police (I'm no cop basher) but they really dropped the ball here. At first I thought they must "know something" that we don't and had a good idea who this little girl was with and would bring her home safely and that's why they didn't issue the amber alert or classify it as an abduction. But now it seems they really have no clue where she is. I'm scared for this little girl and hope she makes it home safely. To me it doesn't matter if she appears to be walking with this adult willingly. Maybe she was tricked or was scared. Who knows? I agree with all the other posters that if a child "disappears" an Amber Alert should be issued right away. Pray for Victoria's safe return.


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## MungoJerry (Apr 15, 2009)

Exceptionally sad that this type of occurence can happen anywhere. May she be safe and sound and come home shortly.


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## Gunny (Feb 21, 2006)

The longer this goes on, the more it takes me back to the Bernardo abductions. I certainly hope the outcome is good for Victoria. No excuse for local police not calling in the OPP sooner.


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## satim (Mar 23, 2006)

BTTT

Americas Most Wanted TONIGHT!!!!!! Please watch if you have the time


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## bscott (Mar 3, 2008)

You can declare an amber alert and then if it turns out not to be a kidnapping you cancel it, have a news conference and say it all worked out OK. Rather that than having the situation as it stands now.

Brian


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

This case is getting bizarre. Whats with this story about an anonymous rich guy offering up a reward?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Yup, the longer this goes on the more strange the behaviour of the parents becomes.

I hate to say it, but I don't think that little girl is coming home. I hope the truth comes out and that justice (or as close as we can come to it) is served.


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## james on bass (Feb 4, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> This case is getting bizarre. Whats with this story about an anonymous rich guy offering up a reward?


Yeah, this whole thing has stunk from the beginning. She apparently took a ride to Toronto last weekend to meet this "donor" in the limo he sent down to get her.

I don't believe for a second this was abduction. The police have been looking squarely at the mother since day 1.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

I'm glad you guys came out and said it. Watching from afar, this has seemed bizarre from the beginning.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The greatest risk of abduction is always by estranged parents. Naturally, when I saw early on that the two parents did not live together, and that from all outward appearances, the little girl appeared to be going with someone she knew, my suspicions were aroused. But of course, if the police knew who the person was, they would have mentioned it by now. I think they would have also developed some kind of case against one of the parents.

People are quickly persuaded by heartfelt expressions of desperation by parents, but of course we also had that recent tragedy of the mother in Nova Scotia who killed her 12 year-old daughter, and expressed similar desperation in front of the TV cameras. Narcissists can be very persuasive when in the public eye. At the same time, I accept both parents' signs of desperation at face value until demonstrated otherwise. Who knows, perhaps the abductor is someone who has been stalking the (now single) dad (and whom the child has either met or can be readily persuaded to treat as daddy's friend), and hopes to use the child to somehow secure a relationship with him? In which case, there is a connection to the father that he does not know about, and his expressions of grief and despair are 100% legit. It's a big world. It doesn't all have to be about sexual predators or vindictive divorced parents. Lotsa weird stuff could be the basis for the puzzling things we see. I just hope she's okay.


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## satim (Mar 23, 2006)

Some new news results 

http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/Local/2009/05/06/9364876-sun.html


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## fretboard (May 31, 2006)

For any of the folks in the London/St. Thomas area - what ever became of that little girl who "went missing" a year or so ago? Story from mom was she went into some diabetic coma or something while home alone with the girl and when she came around or whatever - the child was gone. Want to say it was in St. Thomas but my memory fails me on the details of it. Believe "dad" lived somewhere in the Guelph area. I remember hearing about it when it first was reported, but I don't recall ever hearing if there was any end or closure to it - positive or negative.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Arrests have been made. A man and woman that are known to the parents have been arrested but as of yet no mention has been made as to the where abouts of Tori Stafford.


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## simescan (May 15, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> Arrests have been made. A man and woman that are known to the parents have been arrested but as of yet no mention has been made as to the where abouts of Tori Stafford.


Thanks for the update, Terry...


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

simescan said:


> Thanks for the update, Terry...



I did a quick search on the net this morning before I left so I could put up a link for the update but I couldn't find one. I heard it this morning on 640 AM radio. It was breaking news then so maybe the arrest just happened. When the father made the announcement he said he still didn't know the status of his daughter. That can't be good sign. I would think if the daughter were found she would be reunited instantly. I just hope she's all right.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Finally a link:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2009/05/20/9510591-sun.html


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## fretboard (May 31, 2006)

I walked my kids to school this morning with a local officer of the law who mentioned that it's a body recovery at this point and it seems the 2 charged individuals knew exactly what they were doing - and I'm afraid to say he mentioned the name of another infamous Southern Ontario couple while describing what his understanding of the developments were...

I hummed and hawwed about even posting this vague info - it's all rumour and speculation, but I don't believe there'll be a happy ending here.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

fretboard said:


> I walked my kids to school this morning with a local officer of the law who mentioned that it's a body recovery at this point and it seems the 2 charged individuals knew exactly what they were doing - and I'm afraid to say he mentioned the name of another infamous Southern Ontario couple while describing what his understanding of the developments were...
> 
> I hummed and hawwed about even posting this vague info - it's all rumour and speculation, but I don't believe there'll be a happy ending here.


Unfortunately I don't think so either, but I cannot imagine not knowing were I her Mom. My heart and thoughts are with the family.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

That little girl is gone from this earth. I only hope the sick fu%kers who harmed her get what's coming to them. No matter WHAT led up to this, there's just no way to rationalize hurting a defenceless child.


Let's hope we get the whole truth. I still have suspicions that somebody VERY close to the victim had a hand in it.


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## Beatles (Feb 7, 2006)

Milkman said:


> That little girl is gone from this earth. I only hope the sick fu%kers who harmed her get what's coming to them. No matter WHAT led up to this, there's just no way to rationalize hurting a defenceless child.
> 
> 
> I Let's hope we get the whole truth. I still have suspicions that somebody VERY close to the victim had a hand in it.


My sentiments exactly. Let's hope justice will be served quickly and severely.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> That little girl is gone from this earth. I only hope the sick fu%kers who harmed her get what's coming to them.


What they need is to be put to death. Hopefully we'll at least get to see is them rotting in a cell along side beside Bernardo with no chance of ever seeing the light of day. I'm just hoping for a miracle and that some how she is alive.


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## Duster (Dec 28, 2007)

Beatles said:


> My sentiments exactly. Let's hope justice will be served quickly and severely.


I agree, but unfortunately there won't be any justice. What justice could there possibly be? Public disembowelling would be my preference, but let's be realistic, it ain't going to happen. A long, painful, torturous death? Even just a straight-up hanging? Do any of these actually give anyone satisfaction? Even if they did, our system thankfully isn't so barbaric.

So even if things go well, these folks end up spending the rest of their days in a government facility. I guess that's punishment. But is it justice? Does it really satisfy anyone?

And besides, one of the aforementioned couple (I can't bear to write her name) is out in the world already. Isn't she already re-married, with a new kid? 

I hate to say it, but I don't hope for justice in cases like this. It will never come. It's a horribly unjust and unfair thing to have happen to a child, and unfortunately there's no way to make it right or get satisfaction. It's just a gaping, un-healable wound for this family, and the whole community.

I'll caveat all this with the fact that we don't know what's happened yet, and clearly I'm assuming the worst, which we all hope isn't the case.

--- D


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

There are people in this world who only care about themselves. Up to and including their need to satisfy impulses that leave ordinary people revolted, horrified and enraged. *All* individuals who are a party to crimes of this nature should lose their right to participate in our society permanently. These criminals are the exception. When we do catch those individuals and find them guilty of these crimes, I think mandatory lifetime incarceration is the only justice we can offer.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Duster said:


> I agree, but unfortunately there won't be any justice. What justice could there possibly be? Public disembowelling would be my preference, but let's be realistic, it ain't going to happen. A long, painful, torturous death? Even just a straight-up hanging? Do any of these actually give anyone satisfaction? Even if they did, our system thankfully isn't so barbaric.
> 
> So even if things go well, these folks end up spending the rest of their days in a government facility. I guess that's punishment. But is it justice? Does it really satisfy anyone?
> 
> ...



Yes indeed and that's a whole nother topic we can't get into here. What really scares me is: We can teach our children about not talking to strangers ect, but what about people we know? How the hell do you do that without raising a fearful child? This whole thing just makes me so, so sick.


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## Duster (Dec 28, 2007)

Starbuck said:


> Yes indeed and that's a whole nother topic we can't get into here. What really scares me is: We can teach our children about not talking to strangers ect, but what about people we know? How the hell do you do that without raising a fearful child? This whole thing just makes me so, so sick.


Well, that leads me to yet another "whole nother topic" that upsets me. When something like this happens, we naturally get upset and angry with the perpetrators. But do we spend enough time looking at our own role in such an event? Not each of us personally, but all of us as a community. These people live among us, we know them. Are we vigilant enough to see the warning signs? When they do something like this, it isn't the first time they've behaved abnormally. These people usually have a history of mental illness, personality disorders, dissociative sociopathic behaviour. How many times do we say "that dude is crazy", or "I don't trust that guy", or tolerate aggressive, violent behaviour, and do nothing about it. When we find out more about this, I won't be surprised if there's a history of psychological treatment, estrangement from family members, etc. There will be a whole list of people who knew that these folks just weren't quite right, but didn't know what to do about it.

I know a kid (through a teacher friend), who admits to violent fantasies and harms animals. There's no question among the other teachers that this kid is on a path to hurting people. But no-one knows what to do.

The community of Woodstock will have to do some soul-searching when the facts come to light, and if it does in fact turn out to be someone that is known to them or the family of the girl...

--- D


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Charges have been laid for murder.



> Teri Lynn McClintic is charged with abducting Stafford from her parents Tara McDonald and Rodney Stafford. She was also read charges of assisting Michael Thomas C. S. Rafferty in escaping the area.
> 
> Rafferty was read charges of having abducted Stafford, and then, in Woodstock or elsewhere in Ontario, having murdered her. McClintic was read a third charge of having been an accessory to murder after the fact


Source: Canoe


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Duster said:


> Well, that leads me to yet another "whole nother topic" that upsets me. When something like this happens, we naturally get upset and angry with the perpetrators. But do we spend enough time looking at our own role in such an event?
> 
> --- D


Spare me this crap. Most people don't think like these sick deviants. Of course if we see something strange or unusual we report it. But we are living in a society where we can't get policemen to the scene of a break and enter and they don't sound the Amber alert when needed. This was a local thing and I personally think the law enforcement maybe didn't react quick enough. 
And yes we are angry and upset and yes I do think public disembowelment should be a start. No it doesn't change the outcome but yes it would make us feel a little better with 2 things being accomplished if we wipe these freaks off the face of the earth. 1. They'll never do it again. 2. Other sick deviants will know we are on the hunt for them.
We are living in a society where they try to integrate convicted sexual deviants in to our neighborhoods. These are people that are registered in to databases for sex crimes. We can't stop that we sure can't do much about the sick ones who have never been caught yet.


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## Duster (Dec 28, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> Spare me this crap. Most people don't think like these sick deviants. Of course if we see something strange or unusual we report it. But we are living in a society where we can't get policemen to the scene of a break and enter and they don't sound the Amber alert when needed. This was a local thing and I personally think the law enforcement maybe didn't react quick enough.
> And yes we are angry and upset and yes I do think public disembowelment should be a start. No it doesn't change the outcome but yes it would make us feel a little better with 2 things being accomplished if we wipe these freaks off the face of the earth. 1. They'll never do it again. 2. Other sick deviants will know we are on the hunt for them.
> We are living in a society where they try to integrate convicted sexual deviants in to our neighborhoods. These are people that are registered in to databases for sex crimes. We can't stop that we sure can't do much about the sick ones who have never been caught yet.


Sorry, man, don't misunderstand me. I'm trying to say exactly what you're trying to say. That's why I say "our role, not as individuals, but as a society". How many times does someone have to commit a "minor" sexual crime before we lock them up? How many times does someone have to be caught with kiddie-porn before we consider it sexual assault. How many times do we try to "re-integrate" seriously mentally ill people into our society, with the best of intentions. We have to get better at doing something about these people BEFORE they kill children. I'm not saying you or me, but all of us together, "the system", needs to take this stuff seriously a long time before a kid goes missing.

Let's see how many times this guy has been fired from a job or arrested for fighting, aggressive behaviour, issuing threats, or behaving antisocially. My guess is, this isn't the first time this guy has acted out, and we, our system, didn't do anything about it. Till now. Lot of good that does for Tori Stafford.

--- D


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i always marvel at violent solutions that bring us down to the same level as violent criminals. how, pray tell, can we judge them as sick and depraved if we commit the same sick and depraved acts? its similar to the torture debate. if america is going to condone torture, they automatically lose the right to complain when their enemies use torture.

unless you buy into the "nixon justification": its not murder (etc) when the so-called "good guys" kill.

who among us doesn't believe that they are one of the "good guys"?

-dh

ps i look forward to the charges that, since i am against public disembowlment, i am _*therefore*_ in favour of hugging the perpetrator and making sure he is presented with a mansion, an suv and a lifetime supply of cheesies and beer.



guitarman2 said:


> Spare me this crap. Most people don't think like these sick deviants. Of course if we see something strange or unusual we report it. But we are living in a society where we can't get policemen to the scene of a break and enter and they don't sound the Amber alert when needed. This was a local thing and I personally think the law enforcement maybe didn't react quick enough.
> And yes we are angry and upset and yes I do think public disembowelment should be a start. No it doesn't change the outcome but yes it would make us feel a little better with 2 things being accomplished if we wipe these freaks off the face of the earth. 1. They'll never do it again. 2. Other sick deviants will know we are on the hunt for them.
> We are living in a society where they try to integrate convicted sexual deviants in to our neighborhoods. These are people that are registered in to databases for sex crimes. We can't stop that we sure can't do much about the sick ones who have never been caught yet.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

One of the things that has occured with this type of thing and will continue to occur is the way we as a society pull back into our shells. We try to insulate our kids from almost everything in life. This is a horrendous crime perpetrated against the weakest in our society, a defensless child. But we must also remember that these crimes are extremely rare. The entire Niagara Region lived in intense fear for over a year with the Bernardo thing. I know, I lived through it. Every footprint in your yard was a possible danger sign. Women were afraid to go out at night, anywhere. 

It's the same as 911 and the Swine Flu. The way the media covers such events makes them seem like the evil is everywhere including in your backyard. So we insulate ourselves more. We insulate our children more and more until they don't trust anyone. Not even members of their own family.

We must be vigilant but not to the point that we cannot trust the mailman. These crimes happen, they have happened since the beginning of time and they will continue to happen. The difference between then and now is that there were no books written about it or a movie depicting every grusesome detail.

If we, as "normal" human beings could understand the mind of someone that commits the crimes we might be able to combat it in some way. I submit to you that we may never be able to understand it. To me, the thought of looking at a 7-8 year old girl (or boy) and having any kind of sexual impulse not only boggles my mind but repulses me. So what kind of a twisted mind could think that way? It's far beyond my comprehension. Most of the perpetrators can't even explain it. These are deviants of the highest order.

The only good outcome of this case is that maybe they have the two resposible (they have been charged but not convicted) and these are two more off the streets. 

As for the rest of the kids. We have to try and let them live as well as try and protect them. being distrustful of everything and everybody is going to be a major hindrance to some of these kids in adulthood. IMO.


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## Duster (Dec 28, 2007)

david henman said:


> ...i always marvel at violent solutions that bring us down to the same level as violent criminals. how, pray tell, can we judge them as sick and depraved if we commit the same sick and depraved acts? its similar to the torture debate. if america is going to condone torture, they automatically lose the right to complain when their enemies use torture.
> 
> unless you buy into the "nixon justification": its not murder (etc) when the so-called "good guys" kill.
> 
> ...


You won't get those charges from me. I want to be clear that I went out of my way to say that "thankfully, our system isn't that barbaric". I am very much AGAINST the death penalty, and I was only venting with the disembowelling comment...

--- D


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...i always marvel at violent solutions that bring us down to the same level as violent criminals. how, pray tell, can we judge them as sick and depraved if we commit the same sick and depraved acts? its similar to the torture debate. if america is going to condone torture, they automatically lose the right to complain when their enemies use torture.
> 
> unless you buy into the "nixon justification": its not murder (etc) when the so-called "good guys" kill.
> 
> ...


Prevention is the key. We don't prevent these situations. We give criminals hope that they will one day get out to offend again. We even have a "Faint hope clause, section 745.6", for criminals with life sentences. How about us law abiding citizens have a "Faint hope clause in the form of a bullet to these murdering degenerates head.
As much as the free thinking liberal clueless think that there is no difference between a murdering psychopath and a government sanctioned execution of said psychopath then we are in danger of one day having the same individuals take another life. And yes I know that death penalties don't necessarily deter crime. But it does deter the person executed from ever murdering again.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

guitarman2 said:


> Prevention is the key. We don't prevent these situations. We give criminals hope that they will one day get out to offend again. We even have a "Faint hope clause, section 745.6", for criminals with life sentences. How about us law abiding citizens have a "Faint hope clause in the form of a bullet to these murdering degenerates head.
> As much as the free thinking liberal clueless think that there is no difference between a murdering psychopath and a government sanctioned execution of said psychopath then we are in danger of one day having the same individuals take another life. And yes I know that death penalties don't necessarily deter crime. But it does deter the person executed from ever murdering again.


I respectfully disagree with this. I can almost guarantee you that these two, and the thousands of other offenders over the years never sat down before the crime and said "well, lets see. if I get caught they are only going to give me say 10 years and then I can be on the streets again" They don't think about getting caught or the penalty for getting convicted. They think about it "AFTER" getting caught, yes. Only because thats now and here. Before that it's only the crime. The whole purpose of committing a crime is to get away with it, not get caught. 

Even the places where there are the death penalty they don't think "well, if I get caught they are going to kill me". they only think about that "after" getting caught. Same as the way that almost 99% of all condemned inmates find "religion" only "after" they are condemned.

Prevention? it's a wonderful idea but very hard to implement. The human mind has barely been breached in terms of it's workings. There is no way of knowing which one might be a little "off".


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Methinks this thread has steered off in a whole 'nother direction.


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

latest update........OPP helicopter was searching in the Rockwood country area today (just north of Guelph)..........supposed to be a press/police update at around 3pm.......expect the worst.......


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I respectfully disagree with this. I can almost guarantee you that these two, and the thousands of other offenders over the years never sat down before the crime and said "well, lets see. if I get caught they are only going to give me say 10 years and then I can be on the streets again" They don't think about getting caught or the penalty for getting convicted. They think about it "AFTER" getting caught, yes. Only because thats now and here. Before that it's only the crime. The whole purpose of committing a crime is to get away with it, not get caught.
> 
> Even the places where there are the death penalty they don't think "well, if I get caught they are going to kill me". they only think about that "after" getting caught. Same as the way that almost 99% of all condemned inmates find "religion" only "after" they are condemned.
> 
> Prevention? it's a wonderful idea but very hard to implement. The human mind has barely been breached in terms of it's workings. There is no way of knowing which one might be a little "off".


You didn't understand my post. I'm not for death penalty to deter would be offenders. I'm for the execution so that individual never has the chance to offend again.
I'm also not for paying taxes to sustain the life of an individual I don't think deserves to live.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

guitarman2 said:


> You didn't understand my post. I'm not for death penalty to deter would be offenders. I'm for the execution so that individual never has the chance to offend again.
> I'm also not for paying taxes to sustain the life of an individual I don't think deserves to live.


Ah, so the first line in your post regarding prevention pertains to convicted criminals? Basically what you are saying is kill them so they can't "re-offend". I was reading it in terms of prevention before the initial crime.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> You didn't understand my post. I'm not for death penalty to deter would be offenders. I'm for the execution so that individual never has the chance to offend again.
> I'm also not for paying taxes to sustain the life of an individual I don't think deserves to live.



...are you aware that the death penalty is _far_ more expensive than a life sentence?

by the way, killing is wrong. at least, that is the message that many of us are trying to convey to potential killers, and not by means of a "do as i say, not as i do" message.

not to mention the concept of the individual deciding who deserves to live.......

-dh


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Ah, so the first line in your post regarding prevention pertains to convicted criminals? Basically what you are saying is kill them so they can't "re-offend". I was reading it in terms of prevention before the initial crime.



No. Deterrence through implementing capital punishment is already proven ineffective in the US. So that argument would never fly. 
We need to eliminate these types of individuals that have proven they have no respect for human life. As long as they breathe there is a chance they will live to snuff out someone else's life. Whether that be on the outside after a ridiculous decision made by a clueless parole board or even another convict in for a non violent crime, who although deserves incarceration didn't deserve death.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...are you aware that the death penalty is _far_ more expensive than a life sentence?
> 
> by the way, killing is wrong. at least, that is the message that many of us are trying to convey to potential killers, and not by means of a "do as i say, not as i do" message.
> 
> ...



Lets take this theory to its illogical conclusion. I come across you getting your head beaten to a pulp by some violent person. Lets say for argument sake I have the ability to stop him from beating you to death. But it would take violence to accomplish this. So instead I'll stick to my high moral grounds and try to reason with him. If that doesn't work I'll obtain the assistance of a peace officer who, because we live in this Utopian society of only teaching by examples of "do good", he will not violently intervene either but only reason with him further. All the while your grey matter flows freely down the nearest sewer on the street. What a lovely pretty picture of a great society. 
There is nothing wrong with putting a wild pit bull or rottweiler down after it has attacked and maimed someone. People like the individuals that killed Tori Stafford have lowered them selves lower than a mad dog. It is our responsibility to dispose of them the same way we do with those mad dogs.
As for the expense of death sentence over life sentence. Well unless they are disputing the conviction itself there should be no appeal process. Problem solved.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...the real question is this:

do you want to be part of the problem, or part of the solution? do you want to be part of a violent, barbaric third world culture that puts its own citizens to death and is, therefore morally inferior to the criminals it slaughters, or do you want to be part of a culture that does not subscribe to killing human beings as a way to solve its problems? 

your call. be careful what you wish for.

the truly amazing thing about people who believe that killing is a problem solver is that they believe themselves to be morally superior to the killers they want to kill.

its an ugly world, at times. personally, i prefer NOT to use my energy to make it even uglier.

our "responsibility" is to elevate society, not to drag it down to the level of "mad dogs".

as for taking away the rights of citizens to appeal their sentences, that is practiced quite successfully in many countries, NONE of which anyone would describe as civilized.

-dh




guitarman2 said:


> Lets take this theory to its illogical conclusion. I come across you getting your head beaten to a pulp by some violent person. Lets say for argument sake I have the ability to stop him from beating you to death. But it would take violence to accomplish this. So instead I'll stick to my high moral grounds and try to reason with him. If that doesn't work I'll obtain the assistance of a peace officer who, because we live in this Utopian society of only teaching by examples of "do good", he will not violently intervene either but only reason with him further. All the while your grey matter flows freely down the nearest sewer on the street. What a lovely pretty picture of a great society.
> There is nothing wrong with putting a wild pit bull or rottweiler down after it has attacked and maimed someone. People like the individuals that killed Tori Stafford have lowered them selves lower than a mad dog. It is our responsibility to dispose of them the same way we do with those mad dogs.
> As for the expense of death sentence over life sentence. Well unless they are disputing the conviction itself there should be no appeal process. Problem solved.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Lets take this theory to its illogical conclusion. I come across you getting your head beaten to a pulp by some violent person. Lets say for argument sake I have the ability to stop him from beating you to death. But it would take violence to accomplish this. So instead I'll stick to my high moral grounds and try to reason with him. If that doesn't work I'll obtain the assistance of a peace officer who, because we live in this Utopian society of only teaching by examples of "do good", he will not violently intervene either but only reason with him further. All the while your grey matter flows freely down the nearest sewer on the street. What a lovely pretty picture of a great society.
> There is nothing wrong with putting a wild pit bull or rottweiler down after it has attacked and maimed someone. People like the individuals that killed Tori Stafford have lowered them selves lower than a mad dog. It is our responsibility to dispose of them the same way we do with those mad dogs.
> As for the expense of death sentence over life sentence. Well unless they are disputing the conviction itself there should be no appeal process. Problem solved.


Well Terry, it looks like it's just you and me!:smile:

These discussions are never resolved. People have their own definitions of murder and punishment. Some of us are appalled at what the murderer did. Others are more appalled at the simple act of killing, no matter who does it.

So the debate goes on. As I said, I tend to side with you but lately I'm much more concerned with how our 'system' seems to treat capital crimes lightly, period! We debate life vs. capital punishment while in practice murderers receive neither! A life sentence means 25 years in theory and we have a mandatory 2/3 sentence release policy. Plus other time savings for good behaviour, being in custody prior to a trial verdict (at double time!) and so on. Not to forget, we never see consecutive sentences. Kill one or twenty, you serve them all at the same time. So after the first one they are all 'free'. 

And David is right that capital punishment is more expensive. It shouldn't be, if we had timely trials, but we don't. Lawyers will stretch things out for decades. They make a fortune!

There also seems to be a misconception that if we returned to capital punishment it would have to be mandatory and applied in every case, down to stealing a loaf of bread!. This is just nuts, of course. It should be an option for the judge in those cases that are beyond reasonable doubt and particularly heinous. So a crime of passion would not warrant it, or a sentence based too much on circumstantial evidence. A Charles Ing or a Paul Bernardo WOULD fit the bill!

Anyhow, this will be my one and ONLY post in this thread. Every time I've gotten involved in one it always seems someone comes out of the woodwork and we degenerate into name calling. I'm surprised after the new rules it's gotten this far!

I don't want to push our luck!

:food-smiley-004:


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## Duster (Dec 28, 2007)

david henman said:


> ...the real question is this:
> 
> do you want to be part of the problem, or part of the solution? do you want to be part of a violent, barbaric third world culture that puts its own citizens to death and is, therefore morally inferior to the criminals it slaughters, or do you want to be part of a culture that does not subscribe to killing human beings as a way to solve its problems?
> 
> ...


One of my all-time favourite quotes, is actually relevant here. Excuse the profanity in advance:

"Fighting for peace is like ****ing for virginity".

I would suggest that killing to stop killing is in the same general vein.

--- D


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## Duster (Dec 28, 2007)

Wild Bill said:


> Well Terry, it looks like it's just you and me!:smile:
> 
> These discussions are never resolved. People have their own definitions of murder and punishment. Some of us are appalled at what the murderer did. Others are more appalled at the simple act of killing, no matter who does it.
> 
> ...


Actually I've found the debate to be quite civil. I guess we've all had the debate so often we know where it usually goes.

Your position is pretty nuanced and well-thought out, and generally approximates mine. I'm against the death penalty, just because in practice I think it's awfully tough to administer the way that you describe. What's beyond doubt and heinous to you and me might not be for a judge 20 years from now... or tomorrow. It's tough to have something so serious open to so much interpretation. But our alternative is pretty weak - life imprisonment isn't what it claims to be.

I've always been a staunch opponent of the death penalty. The Bernardo case weakened my resolve, I'll admit. Especially when his wife got out. She shouldn't be on the street, breathing free. It just isn't fair. Deal or no deal, she should be in jail, forever. 

I resolve it by saying that life isn't fair, injustices are committed all the time and go unanswered. You want the death penalty for people who killed a few girls. Yes, it's heinous and gross. But how many people have been arrested and convicted for killing 800,000 people in Rwanda? How many arrest warrants are outstanding for those guilty of genocide in Darfur? At the end of the day, we have to find justice somewhere else, besides the courts. Because they are just NEVER going to be able to provide true justice. 

--- D


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Since I have participated in this thread, I have broken my own rules. Although it did not go south until this morning sometime. However, participating members are to be commended for keeping it to the point and not name calling. It really has wandered off the original subject though, so we should try to get it back on track.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Duster said:


> One of my all-time favourite quotes, is actually relevant here. Excuse the profanity in advance:
> 
> "Fighting for peace is like ****ing for virginity".
> 
> ...


You know what I observe. Those that oppose death penalty and call it barbaric never seem to have an answer for a solution. They come out with dumb sayings like "Do you want to be part of the problem or part of the solution". But since they have seemingly no opinions on a solution I can't tell what the heck their trying to be a part of. Those of us that propose the solution are definitely trying to be part of the solution.
Self preservation is natural. If someone is trying to kill me I will try to stop them even if it means killing them if I'm able. 
I'm not a violent person by nature but I have a will to live. I have a will to protect my family. In Tori's murder this threatens all of our safety. I just had a new baby granddaughter come in to this world on Monday. There have been posts in this thread saying we can't insulate our children. And we have posts here mostly by those same people saying we can't put these murderers to death. Leading your children as lambs to the slaughter may be acceptable to some for the artificial feeling that we live in a non barbaric society. But not for me. I think that the true barbarians don't know they are barbarians.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Duster said:


> I've always been a staunch opponent of the death penalty. The Bernardo case weakened my resolve, I'll admit. --- D


...not mine. in fact, i get tremendous satisfaction in knowing that we didn't give bernardo an easy out, but that he gets to marinate in his own moral cesspool for as long as humanly possible.

-dh


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> So the debate goes on. As I said, I tend to side with you but lately I'm much more concerned with how our 'system' seems to treat capital crimes lightly, period! We debate life vs. capital punishment while in practice murderers receive neither! :


...that, however, is a separate issue.

i agree that our justice systems fails us again and again.

it is far more concerned with justice for the perptrator than it is with justice for the victim, and for the innocent.

-dh


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> You know what I observe. Those that oppose death penalty and call it barbaric never seem to have an answer for a solution. They come out with dumb sayings like "Do you want to be part of the problem or part of the solution". .


...sorry, dude, and with all due respect, that is pure bullshit. people like me do have solutions. it just doesn't involve bloodlust. 

-dh


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## Duster (Dec 28, 2007)

david henman said:


> ...not mine. in fact, i get tremendous satisfaction in knowing that we didn't give bernardo an easy out, but that he gets to marinate in his own moral cesspool for as long as humanly possible.
> 
> -dh


Fair enough... but I never thought they'd keep him in there for life. I still don't. One day that dude will walk out of there. His wife already has. And don't kid yourself, he's not marinating in a moral cesspool. He's not like you or I - he doesn't live with the regret for his actions. He doesn't gnash his teeth at night with self-loathing. However, I'm sure he hasn't been having the time of his life either, so I guess that's something.

--- D


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...not mine. in fact, i get tremendous satisfaction in knowing that we didn't give bernardo an easy out, but that he gets to marinate in his own moral cesspool for as long as humanly possible.
> 
> -dh


He's smart enough to know that he at least gets a little chuckle that it costs us a ton of money to have to support his ass and keep him alive. Unfortunately you have to be one of the most heinous murderers in Canadian history to suffer the isolation that Bernardo does. The killers of Tori will barely be a blip on the screen and in 7 to 10 years when they are up for parole you'll probably hardly hear a peep when they are released. In a decade the guy that killed Tori could be your neighbor. 
It was a decade when the female accomplice of Bernardo was some law abiding citizens neighbor.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> I think that the true barbarians don't know they are barbarians.


...my point, exactly: hypocrisy.

-dh


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Duster said:


> Fair enough... but I never thought they'd keep him in there for life. I still don't. One day that dude will walk out of there. His wife already has. And don't kid yourself, he's not marinating in a moral cesspool. He's not like you or I - he doesn't live with the regret for his actions. He doesn't gnash his teeth at night with self-loathing. However, I'm sure he hasn't been having the time of his life either, so I guess that's something.
> 
> --- D



I'm hoping not. Not one of the infamous killers of a Toronto shoe shine boy many years ago, walked out of prison free. Thankfully they all died in prison. This is the least I hope for Bernardo.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> I just had a new baby granddaughter come in to this world on Monday. There have been posts in this thread saying we can't insulate our children. And we have posts here mostly by those same people saying we can't put these murderers to death. Leading your children as lambs to the slaughter may be acceptable to some for the artificial feeling that we live in a non barbaric society. But not for me. I think that the true barbarians don't know they are barbarians.


...my grandchildren are taught that killing is wrong.

and that, my friend, is because they were born in canada.

-dh


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

david henman said:


> .. people like me do have solutions. it just doesn't involve bloodlust.
> 
> -dh


Funny you never really mention them too vocally. Guess thats what they call apathy.
You may think you're not indifferent but you seem more vocal and outspoken to violence in response to a monstrous act then you are about the initial monstrous act. I do believe there is a time you need to cut your losses forget about rehabilitation and give up on someone.
If you've got a person that is a habitual thief then I say have at it. Repeatedly steal my stuff. Its just stuff. 
But a sexual murderous deviant is something I wish society wouldn't take a chance with.


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## Duster (Dec 28, 2007)

Looks like the namecalling finally showed up. 

I know I've participated in the debate, so it's partly my fault. But as the admin has suggested, can we get back on topic before this goes where it usually does?

--- D


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...my grandchildren are taught that killing is wrong.
> 
> and that, my friend, is because they were born in canada.
> 
> -dh


Yes and thats great. They need to know the moral laws. No one has a right to take the law in you their own hands. But that doesn't preclude the legitimacy of a law on the books that executes monsters. And they are monsters. Bernardo, Clifford Olsen and many like them are monsters.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Duster said:


> Looks like the namecalling finally showed up.
> 
> I know I've participated in the debate, so it's partly my fault. But as the admin has suggested, can we get back on topic before this goes where it usually does?
> 
> --- D



I didn't see any name calling.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Funny you never really mention them too vocally. Guess thats what they call apathy.



...oh, please. how far down are you determined to drag this discussion.

-dh


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

RIFF WRATH said:


> latest update........OPP helicopter was searching in the Rockwood country area today (just north of Guelph)..........supposed to be a press/police update at around 3pm.......expect the worst.......


It appears to be official now. The couple arrested today have been charged with murder.

I think I'm gonna watch Ultimate Fighting or something similar over the next few days. It's gotta be more docile and peaceful than what I expect to see erupting on forums and in the paper. Sigh.....


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Yes and thats great. They need to know the moral laws. No one has a right to take the law in you their own hands. But that doesn't preclude the legitimacy of a law on the books that executes monsters. And they are monsters. Bernardo, Clifford Olsen and many like them are monsters.



...by any chance, have you noticed that most (if not all) civilized countries are moving away from the the death penalty? why do you suppose that is?

-dh


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

OK guy's. Please go back about 20 and read my post again. We have had our say. A few on this side, a few on that side. We are not going to bring anybody together today. Let's go back to the main topic. fair warning before I shut it down. yes, I had had me say as well and have slapped myself already.

PS, don't forget about the social group area. If anyone wants to debate the death penalty or anything else. Head on into the social group area.


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## Duster (Dec 28, 2007)

mhammer said:


> It appears to be official now. The couple arrested today have been charged with murder.
> 
> I think I'm gonna watch Ultimate Fighting or something similar over the next few days. It's gotta be more docile and peaceful than what I expect to see erupting on forums and in the paper. Sigh.....


Some good old fashioned escapism is definitely in order. Ultimate Fighting, maybe even some WWE. There's a new season of the Bachelorette on these days. 

I am not looking forward to hearing the details about this one. 

--- D


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Funny you never really mention them too vocally. Guess thats what they call apathy.
> You may think you're not indifferent but you seem more vocal and outspoken to violence in response to a monstrous act then you are about the initial monstrous act. I do believe there is a time you need to cut your losses forget about rehabilitation and give up on someone.
> If you've got a person that is a habitual thief then I say have at it. Repeatedly steal my stuff. Its just stuff.
> But a sexual murderous deviant is something I wish society wouldn't take a chance with.


...it has been proven, time and time again, that the only thing accomplished by the death penalty is to satisfy the bloodlust of those who need it satisfied.

-dh


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...by any chance, have you noticed that most (if not all) civilized countries are moving away from the the death penalty? why do you suppose that is?
> 
> -dh


How many of them adopt "Faint hope clauses" and let their murders out in 10 years? Thats our inept government laws
I could agree with you and compromise on this issue. With the exception of cop killers and child killers.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Supposedly we'll hear more at 3 pm. Sorry I've taken this thread off track but this hits too close to home for me. My 6 year old granddaughter played with this child before she moved out of the neighborhood. This could have been my grand child.


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