# Feeling like the world is closing in on you?



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

you wont after you watch this

[video=youtube;gIbfYsQfNWs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIbfYsQfNWs[/video]


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Very well put together video. The Bible says we are just dust on the scales. When we understand how large the universe is, we can see the truth in that.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Infinitesimally large and infinitesimally small. Both directions.

That why we're not real and this is all some sort of dream.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

it really is mind boggling when you stop to think about. The two Voyager probes which were launched in 1977 reached the end of the solar system a few years back I believe, They are now out in deep space and I read somewhere that it will take them 40,000 years before they reach another planetary system and they are traveling at 35,000 miles per hour.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

Cool video. I've seen similar ones over the years. Very well put together..So...the question is...are we alone? muahhahaha!

Odds are that there are talking trees or something out there...somewhere


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Stratin2traynor said:


> Cool video. I've seen similar ones over the years. Very well put together..So...the question is...are we alone? muahhahaha!
> 
> Odds are that there are talking trees or something out there...somewhere


i've come to believe that most people can't handle the idea that there's no one else out there. i really don't think there is. it amazes me the amount of science and math people will outright dodge, just to continue thinking there are space aliens out there. aliens that are surely benevolent, and on their way right now, to bring peace on earth. being alone means we get one shot at not fucking it up, and so far, we're fucking it up. that scares people, because generally we don't like personal responsibility. can you convince a drop of rain it caused a flood?


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## Guest (May 24, 2015)

Stratin2traynor said:


> Cool video. I've seen similar ones over the years. Very well put together..So...the question is...are we alone? muahhahaha!
> 
> Odds are that there are talking trees or something out there...somewhere



Marklar. I don't think they read the bible either.

[video=youtube;f-sFEgDQEZ0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-sFEgDQEZ0[/video]


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

We are only scratching the surface of knowledge and experience. In such a vastness there is room for ANY possibility. My Astronomy prof liked to say that the Cosmos is where religion and science become one.


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

The size of our galaxy and beyond is unfathomable as we can't measure it but math allows us a good guess. Its heard to think that you could keep going and going and never reach an end or pass by where you have all ready been, like if you circled the Earth.

I have determined during my short time on Earth that many people have many different believes. None of them are right or wrong and should not be determined to be so by someone else. When belief becomes a problem is when people harm others because of their beliefs. I don't believe in god but my best friend does. We get along because we are both good people and we don't sit around trying to tell each other that the others beliefs are wrong.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

allthumbs56 said:


> In such a vastness there is room for ANY possibility.


1)smash a pocket watch into a zillion pcs
2)put it in a bag
3) shake it till it becomes a running watch again. 

when you can do that, i'll believe in aliens. until then science and math says we're alone


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

Just tried it. Still shaking. No watch! Damn. And I liked that watch!

Seriously though. I don't think anyone can say with any certainty either way. That would mean that we human beings have figured out everything there is to know about math, science, the cosmos. "I don't think so Tim".

Fun to speculate about though!




cheezyridr said:


> 1)smash a pocket watch into a zillion pcs
> 2)put it in a bag
> 3) shake it till it becomes a running watch again.
> 
> when you can do that, i'll believe in aliens. until then science and math says we're alone


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Over 40 years ago, by chance, I ended up sitting beside Carl Sagan. I had come to a guest lecture of his, at the last minute, and took what appeared to be one two remaining empty seats at the front of the auditorium. Sagan walks in with his host and takes the remaining empty seat beside me, while his host introduced hm for what seemed to be about 10 minutes. I asked him how it was possible to imagine the vastness of space and the universe. He replied that, after a while, it starts to feel like a neighbourhood, in which you start to think in terms of "Go straight until you hit Alpha Centauri, hang a left and continue on for a few light years. You can't miss it."

Ironically, the folks who probably have a much better appreciation of the vastness than most of us here do, are perhaps more oblivious or at least less mind-blown about it than we are.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

cheezyridr said:


> i've come to believe that most people can't handle the idea that there's no one else out there. i really don't think there is. it amazes me the amount of science and math people will outright dodge, just to continue thinking there are space aliens out there. aliens that are surely benevolent, and on their way right now, to bring peace on earth. being alone means we get one shot at not fucking it up, and so far, we're fucking it up. that scares people, because generally we don't like personal responsibility. can you convince a drop of rain it caused a flood?


Relatively recently - the past ten years or so - there have been big improvements in the science that lets astronomers detect the planets around other stars. The improvements have allowed them to identify thousands of planets they didn't know about before, and over a hundred of them so far that probably have the fundamentals to support life as we know it.

They've only just started looking. Virtually all of their looking has been in our galaxy and they're nowhere NEAR done looking there. There are (at least) *billions* of other galaxies. Therefore the probability is that there are tens of billions of planets in the universe that could support life as we know it.

There likely aren't many *scientists* who believe that we'll one day have friendly chums or nasty enemies on other planets in the universe - that's a more-fanciful domain left up to others not constrained by science. However the odds of there being *no* life elsewhere in the universe are starting to look very tiny indeed.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

boyscout said:


> Relatively recently - the past ten years or so - there have been big improvements in the science that lets astronomers detect the planets around other stars. The improvements have allowed them to identify thousands of planets they didn't know about before, and over a hundred of them so far that_* probably*_ have the fundamentals to support life as we know it.
> 
> They've only just started looking. Virtually all of their looking has been in our galaxy and they're nowhere NEAR done looking there. There are _*(at least)*_ *billions* of other galaxies. Therefore the _*probability*_ is that there are tens of billions of planets in the universe that could support life as we know it.
> 
> There _*likely*_ aren't many *scientists* who believe that we'll one day have friendly chums or nasty enemies on other planets in the universe - that's a more-fanciful domain left up to others not constrained by science. However the odds of there being *no* life elsewhere in the universe are starting to look very tiny indeed.


Probably, likely and at least are the guesses you'll find in most scientific theories about things they can't pinpoint which shows they don't know a whole lot more than the average interested person.

When you look at the vastness of the universe and you have a little inconspicuous spec in that universe telling you he knows something that can't be absolutely proven we would do well to take anything they say with a grain of salt.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> i've come to believe that most people can't handle the idea that there's no one else out there. I really don't think there is. _*It amazes me the amount of science and math people will outright dodge, just to continue thinking there are space aliens out there.*_ Aliens that are surely benevolent, and on their way right now, to bring peace on earth. That scares people, because generally we don't like personal responsibility. can you convince a drop of rain it caused a flood?


It amazes me too. On the other hand many people are grasping at straws to find some answer to the terrible mess we've gotten ourselves into and science, the media and others are feeding the gobbly goop out to them in bucketfuls.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

boyscout said:


> They've only just started looking. Virtually all of their looking has been in our galaxy and they're nowhere NEAR done looking there. There are (at least) *billions* of other galaxies. Therefore the probability is that there are tens of billions of planets in the universe that could support life as we know it.


everyone loves to mention probability but they *always* leave out chaos, because it throws a monkey wrench into the neat little picture they've drawn in their head. i recommend that anyone reading this thread look up what it takes for life to have occurred on this planet. then look up the things that had to happen, and the things that had to NOT happen, just for us to evolve to the point we are right now. while doing this, try not to be distracted by the flood of scenarios your brain will conjure up to point out how slim a chance our existence really is. 
try to understand that these things had to happen or not happen in a very specific order, and for specific periods of time. at just the right moment. one thing happening or not, or at the wrong time, or for too long, or not long enough, would have changed everything. that not only includes the evolution of our environment, but all the organisms in it. then there's human history to consider as well. 
if you can do that, and understand what your trying to learn, you will see that the idea that we happened by random chance is ludicrous. the idea that it could have happened again is so much more so, i don't know what the word for that even is. is it a possibility? sure. but as i pointed out earlier, the likelihood of it happening is not much different than the watch analogy.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

Wow. Sounds like you have all of science figured out. Well done. 



cheezyridr said:


> everyone loves to mention probability but they *always* leave out chaos, because it throws a monkey wrench into the neat little picture they've drawn in their head. i recommend that anyone reading this thread look up what it takes for life to have occurred on this planet. then look up the things that had to happen, and the things that had to NOT happen, just for us to evolve to the point we are right now. while doing this, try not to be distracted by the flood of scenarios your brain will conjure up to point out how slim a chance our existence really is.
> try to understand that these things had to happen or not happen in a very specific order, and for specific periods of time. at just the right moment. one thing happening or not, or at the wrong time, or for too long, or not long enough, would have changed everything. that not only includes the evolution of our environment, but all the organisms in it. then there's human history to consider as well.
> if you can do that, and understand what your trying to learn, you will see that the idea that we happened by random chance is ludicrous. the idea that it could have happened again is so much more so, i don't know what the word for that even is. is it a possibility? sure. but as i pointed out earlier, the likelihood of it happening is not much different than the watch analogy.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> everyone loves to mention probability but they *always* leave out chaos, because it throws a monkey wrench into the neat little picture they've drawn in their head. i recommend that anyone reading this thread look up what it takes for life to have occurred on this planet. then look up the things that had to happen, and the things that had to NOT happen, just for us to evolve to the point we are right now. while doing this, try not to be distracted by the flood of scenarios your brain will conjure up to point out how slim a chance our existence really is.
> try to understand that these things had to happen or not happen in a very specific order, and for specific periods of time. at just the right moment. one thing happening or not, or at the wrong time, or for too long, or not long enough, would have changed everything. that not only includes the evolution of our environment, but all the organisms in it. then there's human history to consider as well.
> if you can do that, and understand what your trying to learn, you will see that the idea that we happened by random chance is ludicrous. the idea that it could have happened again is so much more so, i don't know what the word for that even is. is it a possibility? sure. but as i pointed out earlier, the likelihood of it happening is not much different than the watch analogy.


Here is the probability just looking at proteins. BTW, these are scientists, evolutionists and mathematicians saying this.

*Probability and Spontaneous Proteins

*
What chance is there that the correct amino acids would come together to form a protein molecule? It could be likened to having a big, thoroughly mixed pile containing equal numbers of red beans and white beans. There are also over 100 different varieties of beans. Now, if you plunged a scoop into this pile, what do you think you would get? To get the beans that represent the basic components of a protein, you would have to scoop up only red ones—no white ones at all! Also, your scoop must contain only 20 varieties of the red beans, and each one must be in a specific, preassigned place in the scoop. In the world of protein, a single mistake in any one of these requirements would cause the protein that is produced to fail to function properly. Would any amount of stirring and scooping in our hypothetical bean pile have given the right combination? No. Then how would it have been possible in the hypothetical organic soup?

The proteins needed for life have very complex molecules. What is the chance of even a simple protein molecule forming at random in an organic soup? Evolutionists acknowledge it to be only one in 10113 (1 followed by 113 zeros). But any event that has one chance in just 1050 is dismissed by mathematicians as never happening. An idea of the odds, or probability, involved is seen in the fact that the number 10113 is larger than the estimated total number of all the atoms in the universe!

Some proteins serve as structural materials and others as enzymes. The latter speed up needed chemical reactions in the cell. Without such help, the cell would die. Not just a few, but 2,000 proteins serving as enzymes are needed for the cell’s activity. What are the chances of obtaining all of these at random? One chance in 1040,000! “An outrageously small probability,” Hoyle asserts, “that could not be faced even if the whole universe consisted of organic soup.” He adds: “If one is not prejudiced either by social beliefs or by a scientific training into the conviction that life originated [spontaneously] on the Earth, this simple calculation wipes the idea entirely out of court.”

However, the chances actually are far fewer than this “outrageously small” figure indicates. There must be a membrane enclosing the cell. But this membrane is extremely complex, made up of protein, sugar and fat molecules. As evolutionist Leslie Orgel writes: “Modern cell membranes include channels and pumps which specifically control the influx and efflux of nutrients, waste products, metal ions and so on. These specialised channels involve highly specific proteins, molecules that could not have been present at the very beginning of the evolution of life.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

Couple of things I find realy interesting on this topic...

First...
When you see a picture of a galaxy that the Hubble Telescope has taken and the caption reads that this galaxy is 1 billion light years ways,
the first thing I think about is that the picture is a snapshot of what that galaxy looked like 1 billion years ago.
Talk about looking into the past....
We have pictures of distant galaxies that take us very close in age to the BIG BANG.

Second..
It sure looks like that the whole universe as we know it is made up of the same stuff that is here on Earth.
Basically , the elements in our periodic table are the elements of the universe.

think about that before you go to sleep tonight...

G.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

cheezyridr said:


> 1)smash a pocket watch into a zillion pcs
> 2)put it in a bag
> 3) shake it till it becomes a running watch again.
> 
> when you can do that, i'll believe in aliens. until then science and math says we're alone


If you smash a watch into a zillion pieces, those pieces are going to be very, very small and there is a damned good chance that you will lose quite a few due to various reasons. When you put it in a bag you will probably lose some more pieces. If you shake it long enough the odds are that you might get it running again but it might or might not tell the right time. When I watch the video do I feel like the world is closing in on me and do I question my existence? Nope. To me math and science say that there might be other life forms out there but as far as we know they have not got here.....yet. And that's as far as I know. I saw the first man in space....again as far as I know.....and I watched the first man land on the moon. Maybe I'll watch the first alien contact. Who knows.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

GTmaker said:


> Couple of things I find realy interesting on this topic...
> 
> First...
> When you see a picture of a galaxy that the Hubble Telescope has taken and the caption reads that this galaxy is 1 billion light years ways,
> ...


yeah- all the things that make up our planet also make up pretty much everything-
in differing quantities and qualities of course,
but all the parts are out there..
other life has to exist someplace.
humans?
no way.
we are an evolutionary miracle,
or a bad joke.
but life of some kind, for sure.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Stratin2traynor said:


> Wow. Sounds like you have all of science figured out. Well done.


 i've figured out enough of it that i understand the subject were discussing more than some. should i feign ignorance and parrot everyone else in order to fit in? when people say completely uninformed things, why should i not call them on it? i thought that was the whole point of discussion? everyone is entitled to their own opinion. they aren't entitled to their own facts.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

I was just being facetious (and referring to my previous post). It's all in good fun. 



cheezyridr said:


> i've figured out enough of it that i understand the subject were discussing more than some. should i feign ignorance and parrot everyone else in order to fit in? when people say completely uninformed things, why should i not call them on it? i thought that was the whole point of discussion? everyone is entitled to their own opinion. they aren't entitled to their own facts.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

That pretty sums up my perspective on earth and the universe.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

_According to NASA, the Solar System is traveling at an average speed of 828,000 km/h (230 km/s) or 514,000 mph (143 mi/s) relative to the galactic center,[3]__ which is about one 1300th of the speed of light._

If indeed our solar system is travelling at an average speed of 828,000 km/h around the Milky Way, shouldn't we all be wearing a hat?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

We may wonder why some planets are placed where they are and why are the the size they are. Some of them are protectors of the earth, scientists tell us.

Creative power is very evident in our home, the earth. The earth has been placed very carefully in this vast universe. Some scientists believe that many galaxies might prove inhospitable to a life-bearing planet like ours. Much of our Milky Way galaxy was evidently not designed to accommodate life. The galactic center is packed with stars. Radiation is high, and close encounters between stars are common. The fringes of the galaxy lack many of the elements essential to life. _*Our solar system is ideally situated between such extremes.*_
_* Earth benefits from a distant but giant protector—the planet Jupiter. More than a thousand times the size of Earth, Jupiter exerts a tremendous gravitational influence. The result? It absorbs or deflects objects that speed through space. Scientists figure that if not for Jupiter, the rain of massive projectiles striking the earth would be 10,000 times more severe than at present.*_ 

Closer to home, our earth is blessed with an unusual satellite—the moon. More than an object of beauty and a “night-light,” _*the moon holds the earth at a constant, steady tilt. That tilt gives the earth its stable, predictable seasons—another important boon to life here.*_


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Stratin2traynor said:


> Just tried it. Still shaking. No watch! Damn. And I liked that watch!


Still shaking it? Any watch yet?


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

Kind of. I think it's turning into an iPhone 7-? If that's possible...Nice! I'm going to go dust off the alien landing pad in my backyard! Just in case.



greco said:


> Still shaking it? Any watch yet?


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Some aliens live in my closet. They wake me up at all hours of the night to have sex with them. They won't go away. Xzxtra has some nice boobs though...


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## Guest (May 25, 2015)

bluzfish said:


> Xzxtra has some nice boobs though...


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

With the number of potentially inhabitable planets out there the laws of probabilities tell me we are likely NOT alone in the universe.

The chances of ever contacting or being contacted be another intelligent species seems remote.

So we're probably not alone in my opinion, but we might as well be.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

cheezyridr said:


> i've figured out enough of it that i understand the subject were discussing more than some. should i feign ignorance and parrot everyone else in order to fit in? when people say completely uninformed things, why should i not call them on it? i thought that was the whole point of discussion? everyone is entitled to their own opinion. they aren't entitled to their own facts.


Wow cheezy, you're sounding like the perpetually under-informed Steadfastly in this response, not like yourself. Someone with a point of view different from your own is "completely uninformed"?! Good grief!

The gist of my post that you responded to comes from lectures I've attended by Professor Paul Delaney in the department of astronomy at York University. Mr. Delaney reports on and contributes to the work of dozens of other leading scientists in the recently-accelerated search for planets using new developments in that field.

In my report I used qualifiers such as "probably" and "likely" because I am not a fully-informed scientist - it was a form of modesty - but the scientists are more certain about what they're finding. The word "probability" is a term based on mathematics and scientific principles.

I used the phrase "life as we know it" because it is used even by scientists in popular communications, but for clarity it does NOT necessarily mean the range of life, animal kingdom, humans with iPhones and Bugattis, that we have on earth. It means living organisms that require essential conditions of water and oxygen and a certain temperature range to exist and survive, organisms that would be somewhat familiar to our scientists.

When I last talked to Mr. Delaney over two years ago scientists had found over 170 planets which have the conditions for life as we know it; it's probably well over 200 now, and they've barely started looking, there's a probability that there are billions of them. They haven't found life - and I did not report that they have - but conditions that could support it on these planets.

To dismiss any significance of this you imply that people making something of the discoveries and the probabilities in them are ignoring the chaos in natural systems. They (including me) may know more about chaos than you think, perhaps more than you do. Perhaps you should do some reading about entropy if your world view doesn't require you to reject well-established principles and scientific laws that don't fit your paradigm. Also read up on stochastic processes.

It probably was unlikely that life would form out of chaos on earth but it did. Scientists don't understand every step of the enormously-complex natural progression at this moment but they understand much and learn more all the time. The cracks in their current knowledge are *NOT* absolute proof that life didn't develop by natural progressions. Nor are they absolute proof that it could not happen on any others of the billions of planets with the necessary essential conditions for it. That argument is like looking at any working system and saying, "I don't know how that system works, therefore it absolutely does not work."

Like others with your beliefs you'd probably like to take this into a lengthy debate about creationism vs. evolution. That's more than my time (or possibly GC's server!) can accommodate. The stage is yours sir, go ahead and dismiss everything that doesn't fit with your thinking and sneer at me and others who have advanced those things. You have the last word.

However if you care about more than just having the last word and promoting your beliefs, York University Astronomy has a free open house almost weekly (is it Wednesdays? I've never been but Mr. Delaney has mentioned them.) He is often there himself, and in twenty minutes in the most genial and cheerful way he might possibly convince you that you are not as well-informed as you think you are.

Or at least not well-enough informed to dismiss others as "completely uniformed".

/end


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Given how mind boggling huge and enormous and beyond the imagination big THIS universe is, it wouldn't surprise me if a number of intelligent civilizations have risen, peaked, declined and disappeared somewhere in the universe even before we crawled out of the ooze.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> Given how mind boggling huge and enormous and beyond the imagination big THIS universe is, it wouldn't surprise me if a number of intelligent civilizations have risen, peaked, declined and disappeared somewhere in the universe even before we crawled out of the ooze.


great point to make about timing... the way we are going, our civilization stands zero chance in making a go of it for much longer on Earth.
This very small window of time that we are here, does translate to others out there too.

The other point I can make is that if tomorrow we get a radio massage telling us all about another civilization and its location and their acknowledgement that they also know we are here... what then? 
If the massage took a short thousand light years to get here what the hell are we going to do about it?

other then a bunch of folks saying.."I told you so"... there isn't much more to say about it.

G.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Guitar101 said:


> _According to NASA, the Solar System is traveling at an average speed of 828,000 km/h (230 km/s) or 514,000 mph (143 mi/s) relative to the galactic center,[3]__ which is about one 1300th of the speed of light._
> 
> If indeed our solar system is travelling at an average speed of 828,000 km/h around the Milky Way, shouldn't we all be wearing a hat?


Going at 1/1300 the speed of light around the milky way shouldn't we have a turn signal on along with the hat.....for at least 10 light years.

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bluzfish said:


> Some aliens live in my closet. They wake me up at all hours of the night to have sex with them. They won't go away. Xzxtra has some nice boobs though...


So sometimes your in the closet with the aliens.....and the monsters? What about the ones under the bed? And Does Xzxtra keep hitting you on the forehead?


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Is it just me or is this thread starting to sound like something out of the Hitch Hikers Guide?


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## Guest (May 26, 2015)




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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Sadly, science isn't perfect. But its the only thing trying to find an explanation for what's going on. Why someone would want to ignore the slow progress of science but just believe because someone before them (and before them and before them......) believed something isn't going to get us anywhere. If that were the only way, we'd still be watching the sun go around us. And probably not have these computer thingys to speculate with.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Imagine that in thousands of years, after humanity has reached it's egalitarian peak of a war and poverty free society, that another advanced civilization picks up our current TV and radio signals. After giving deep thought to seeing Here Comes Honey Boo Boo and Up With the Kardashians, they make their pronouncement on Earth's Humanity,... It's Gotta Go.


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## Guest (May 26, 2015)

Robert1950 said:


> .. advanced civilization picks up our current TV and radio signals.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Milkman said:


> With the number of potentially inhabitable planets out there the laws of probabilities tell me we are likely NOT alone in the universe.
> 
> The chances of ever contacting or being contacted be another intelligent species seems remote.
> 
> So we're probably not alone in my opinion, but we might as well be.


Yes

Contrary to what Cheezy says, math and science support the probability of the existence of other life forms - possibly thousands - if not millions of other varieties.

The odds of actually meeting another life form are infinitesimally tiny though given the vastness of the Cosmos and the assumption that our current knowledge of Physics holds constant.

And I've taken courses .................. :acigar:


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Isn't it interesting that all the comments that there is _probably_ life out there outside of the earth, not one verifiable fact has been presented to show that this can be believed.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> Isn't it interesting that all the comments that there is _probably_ life out there outside of the earth, not one verifiable fact has been presented to show that this can be believed.



Well, that's the key difference between science and religion. With science, we're cool with saying we don't know yet and don't feel the need to say, well, since we don't know, it must be magic.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Well, that's the key difference between science and religion. With science, we're cool with saying we don't know yet and don't feel the need to say, well, since we don't know, it must be magic.


Yes again.

In science we are forever altering our views as the data becomes available. Religion is quite the opposite - it attempts to alter the data to suit the view. 

Now I am a believer in something greater than myself - but my viewpoint is grand and vague enough to accept that I don't know what I don't know - and I marvel at the thought that there is so much that I hope to one day learn.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Steadfastly said:


> Isn't it interesting that all the comments that there is _probably_ life out there outside of the earth, not one verifiable fact has been presented to show that this can be believed.


it's called the fermi paradox.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

GTmaker said:


> The other point I can make is that if tomorrow we get a radio massage telling us all about another civilization and its location and their acknowledgement that they also know we are here... what then?
> If the massage took a short thousand light years to get here what the hell are we going to do about it?
> 
> G.


...pray for a happy ending?


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> it's called the fermi paradox.


But a paradox is not Science or proof of anything. 

Consider how advanced we are over say, 500 BC. Do you think we could travel back to that time and go unnoticed? An alien race that is a million years advanced over ours is certainly able to avoid us if it chooses to........... and what reason would it have to bother stopping by for coffee anyway?


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

laristotle said:


>


And the guy with the coffee just walks away, probably to see what the girls on the porn channels are doing.

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Steadfastly said:


> Isn't it interesting that all the comments that there is _probably_ life out there outside of the earth, not one verifiable fact has been presented to show that this can be believed.


Not knocking you Stead and any bodies religion but a lot of people believe the bible and the koran and various other religious books.

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allthumbs56 said:


> But a paradox is not Science or proof of anything.
> 
> Consider how advanced we are over say, 500 BC. Do you think we could travel back to that time and go unnoticed? An alien race that is a million years advanced over ours is certainly able to avoid us if it chooses to........... and what reason would it have to bother stopping by for coffee anyway?


[video=youtube;NIufLRpJYnI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIufLRpJYnI[/video]


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Well, that's the key difference between science and religion. With science, we're cool with saying we don't know yet and don't feel the need to say, well, since we don't know, it must be magic.


I agree that many or most religion is like that. True religion is not like that. As the Bible says at Prov. 4:18, it should continue to change as the light gets brighter. It should never be fixed. Moses, Peter, Paul and many others in the Bible were wrong and had to be corrected. The same is true today.

For example, everything in the OP video is in the publications of Jehovah's Witnesses. When I watched the video, I was wondering if it was a Witness or someone who studied with the Witnesses had put it together. True religion shouldn't hide from these things. They are facts. They are also in line with what the Bible really teaches not what religion in general teaches.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> I agree that many or most religion is like that. True religion is not like that. As the Bible says at Prov. 4:18, it should continue to change as the light gets brighter. It should never be fixed. Moses, Peter, Paul and many others in the Bible were wrong and had to be corrected. The same is true today.
> 
> For example, everything in the OP video is in the publications of Jehovah's Witnesses. When I watched the video, I was wondering if it was a Witness or someone who studied with the Witnesses had put it together. True religion shouldn't hide from these things. They are facts. They are also in line with what the Bible really teaches not what religion in general teaches.


Ah, but ALL religion does indeed hide from the facts doesn't it? Isn't that what dogma is all about? Don't all religions start from a completely unproven base of "facts"?


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## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> We may wonder why some planets are placed where they are and why are the the size they are. Some of them are protectors of the earth, scientists tell us.
> 
> Creative power is very evident in our home, the earth. The earth has been placed very carefully in this vast universe. Some scientists believe that many galaxies might prove inhospitable to a life-bearing planet like ours. Much of our Milky Way galaxy was evidently not designed to accommodate life. The galactic center is packed with stars. Radiation is high, and close encounters between stars are common. The fringes of the galaxy lack many of the elements essential to life. _*Our solar system is ideally situated between such extremes.*_
> _* Earth benefits from a distant but giant protector—the planet Jupiter. More than a thousand times the size of Earth, Jupiter exerts a tremendous gravitational influence. The result? It absorbs or deflects objects that speed through space. Scientists figure that if not for Jupiter, the rain of massive projectiles striking the earth would be 10,000 times more severe than at present.*_
> ...


This is looking through the telescope backwards. The conditions described above did not emerge coincidentally to foster our well-being. We _evolved_ to fit the preexisting conditions.
On this planet there exists organic life surrounding deep sea bottom vents that emit hot noxious clouds of gases. There is organic life living deeply buried in the strata surrounding salt domes which cap oil and gas fields in the southern US states. There are fish, shrimp, crickets etc. that exist in caverns with absolutely no light. Same with the deep ocean abysses, (except perhaps, the crickets).
So, given a few organic molecules and enough time, you will get something which we would term 'life forms' in quite a diverse set of conditions, and they will mutate (evolve), given time.
Does anyone remember Roddenberry's Star Trek episode where they encountered an injured life form that was silicon based (rather than carbon)? 
"I'm a _doctor_, Jim - not a b_ricklayer_" - McCoy


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Ah, but ALL religion does indeed hide from the facts doesn't it? Isn't that what dogma is all about? Don't all religions start from a completely unproven base of "facts"?


I have been studying the Bible for over 30 years and although "higher" critics try to claim what you posted above, the facts show that the Bible is correct. For example some of the personalities in the Bible were not found anywhere else in history but the Bible so critics dismissed them as never existing. In time, archeology and other means have found these were actual historical people, proving the Bible correct and previously known history wrong. 

When these things come up, we don't hide from them but rather research them. The Bible proves to be right time after time after time increasing our faith in it.

When we see the power in the universe, isn't the ability to put and keep together a book of truth a very small thing in comparison?


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> I have been studying the Bible for over 30 years and although "higher" critics try to claim what you posted above, the facts show that the Bible is correct. For example some of the personalities in the Bible were not found anywhere else in history but the Bible so critics dismissed them as never existing. In time, archeology and other means have found these were actual historical people, proving the Bible correct and previously known history wrong.
> 
> When these things come up, we don't hide from them but rather research them. The Bible proves to be right time after time after time increasing our faith in it.
> 
> When we see the power in the universe, isn't the ability to put and keep together a book of truth a very small thing in comparison?


Again I'm not knocking your beliefs Stead but your beliefs are not mine. To me the facts show that the bible can be intereperated as correct. So can Nostrodamus. Right now the sun is shining and the choices are endless. Since I have the day off I could go work in the garden, go mow the lawn, bag the pop bottles or get the bikes out and me and the wife could go for a ride. I look up and see and feel the power of the sun, knowing.....from what I've been taught....that to put it simply it's a big ball of fire.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I'll bow out before we venture into forbidden territory, but let's just say I don't accept the "evidence" provided thus far to validate the bible.


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## Disbeat (Jul 30, 2011)

Classy move, and I agree with what you say but this is usually the topic that gets out of hand the quickest.



Milkman said:


> I'll bow out before we venture into forbidden territory, but let's just say I don't accept the "evidence" provided thus far to validate the bible.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I do believe that due to the shear numbers of stars & galaxies in the universe......there simply must be other life out there in many, many forms. 

I do not believe however that any of this alien life has ever found earth or ever will find earth. There is nothing special about our star, nothing to attract attention to our area. 

If we have been visited by "aliens", they were in fact time travelers from earth. Not aliens at all.

IMHO


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

the 3 most common elements in the universe are hydrogen, oxygen, and carbon. i don't think it's a coincidence that those 3 ingredients are primarily what all the life we know is made of. we have plenty of crystalline forms on this planet, but no crystalline life. i don't think that's a coincidence either. one could say "anything's possible". i could not realistically disagree with that. but i would counter that just because it's possible doesn't mean that it exists, or that is in any way likely. 


we discover species that we were previously unaware of, or thought were extinct, with surprising regularity. much of this planet is still unexplored, and i don't mean just the ocean's depths. there are still places here in the n. american temperate zone where man hasn't been yet. that may sound like a wild claim but it's verifiable. we tend to forget how much we don't know about right here on earth. as time passes, i expect we'll know more and more. maybe someday we'll discover bigfoot, nessie, and the jersey devil. there's even events in recorded history we don't understand. the foo fighters, for example. no i don't mean dave grohl's band. i find these things far more interesting that wondering about aliens. here's something to think about: 
humans share about 99% of their dna with apes and chimps. when you think of it that way, it sounds like we are pretty similar, yes? but when was the last time you saw a gorilla flying an airplane or program a computer? so now, that 1% seems pretty huge and important all of a sudden, doesn't it? so what if you guys are right, and there are aliens out there. and those aliens are just 1% more advanced than we are? to them, we'd be monkeys. you think they're interested in hanging out with a bunch of monkeys? concepts we aren't even able to grasp would be basic knowledge for them. the dumbest of them would routinely be able to do complex calculations in their heads that we couldn't begin understand on our best day. if aliens do exist, and they ever show up here, you'll all be shittin bricks. because we will be as ants to them. they won't be here to make things rosy for us. if we're lucky we'll be a tourist attraction. an intergalactic zoo. if we're not so lucky, they'll break out the raid, and spray it right into our nest. and that will be that.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

[video=youtube;MULMbqQ9LJ8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MULMbqQ9LJ8[/video]


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

J-75 said:


> This is looking through the telescope backwards. The conditions described above did not emerge coincidentally to foster our well-being. We _evolved_ to fit the preexisting conditions.
> On this planet there exists organic life surrounding deep sea bottom vents that emit hot noxious clouds of gases. There is organic life living deeply buried in the strata surrounding salt domes which cap oil and gas fields in the southern US states. There are fish, shrimp, crickets etc. that exist in caverns with absolutely no light. Same with the deep ocean abysses, (except perhaps, the crickets).
> So, given a few organic molecules and enough time, you will get something which we would term 'life forms' in quite a diverse set of conditions, and they will mutate (evolve), given time.
> Does anyone remember Roddenberry's Star Trek episode where they encountered an injured life form that was silicon based (rather than carbon)?
> "I'm a _doctor_, Jim - not a b_ricklayer_" - McCoy


It's been a while since I saw the original and I havn't watched the posted vid but didn't you forget a damn it? Just befor Spock sat on a rock and the rock moved.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> I'll bow out before we venture into forbidden territory, but let's just say I don't accept the "evidence" provided thus far to validate the bible.


That's where study and research come in. And each to his own. There has to be enough interest there to take the time to do the study and research. That is true of anything, including guitars. We can slap down some money and buy any guitar but without doing a little research first we may quickly find out we just threw out a pile of money.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

The point of the whole thing is the vastness of it, and the tiny, tiny little piece of real estate we occupy in it. No sense in debating the creation of it, there is simply not enough data on any side of the debate to come to an exact conclusion. We just keep learning


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

To paraphrase Chip and Dale.....shall we end it with a song?
Let's shall.
[video=youtube;buqtdpuZxvk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buqtdpuZxvk[/video]


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

You may now have my liver


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## Guest (May 28, 2015)




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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

Just in case you missed those famous last few lines of the song, they are well worth repeating.

Remember when your feeling very small and insecure
How amazingly and likely is your birth,
And pray that there is intelligent life somewhere up in space,
Cause there is bugger all down here on earth.

G.



Electraglide said:


> To paraphrase Chip and Dale.....shall we end it with a song?
> Let's shall.
> [video=youtube;buqtdpuZxvk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buqtdpuZxvk[/video]


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space. "

Douglas Adams, _The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy_


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

I think our planet was seeded by some other species/race as a survival tactic, and we're deliberately in the middle of nowhere for our own protection

if we don't wipe ourselves out first, we'll gradually evolve as a species back to the levels they were at

no one is going to save us

if anything, an alien species would wipe us out & move in. Not a lot of life-sustaining planets around. and we're not treating this one too well


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

^^ sounds like a movie plot ^^


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

[video=youtube;QKanXRERgoY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKanXRERgoY[/video]


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## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

Lincoln said:


> I do believe that due to the shear numbers of stars & galaxies in the universe......there simply must be other life out there in many, many forms.
> 
> I do not believe however that any of this alien life has ever found earth or ever will find earth. There is nothing special about our star, nothing to attract attention to our area.
> 
> IMHO


Absolutely correct, IMHO (I'm not sure about the time travellers part - time only moves _forward_.)


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

Lincoln said:


> I do believe that due to the shear numbers of stars & galaxies in the universe......there simply must be other life out there in many, many forms.
> I do not believe however that any of this alien life has ever found earth or ever will find earth. There is nothing special about our star, nothing to attract attention to our area.
> If we have been visited by "aliens", they were in fact time travelers from earth. Not aliens at all.
> IMHO


I certainly don't agree that our Earth is "nothing special "...
Can you imagine if we had the technology that would allow us to really scan distant planets for any king of life.
Then one day your sitting at your boring desk and your search monitor points to a planet like our Earth.
Would you not think that every bell and horn and light warning would be blaring. I think it would look like a Canada Day fireworks show.

Why would you not want to visit the mother load of planets with as much life as ours.?

AS for your "time travelers" ....look up The Arrow of Time...

G.


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