# The Official 'Why Toronto Sucks' Thread



## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

-The property taxes are too low and don't generate enough revenue to repair the crumbling infrastructure


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## Guest (Jun 13, 2015)

I don't live there anymore? lol.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Toronto sucks because it's a large city.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

This thread is soooooo Toronto.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

As large cities in the world go, it is one of the better ones but when you look at the unending problems it has, that is nothing to mark it by. It's just one of the better big problems of large cities.

Since I moved to Ontario over 40 years ago, I have seen a continual downward spiral of growing homelessness, drugs, gangs, prostitution, crime and economic hardships.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> As large cities in the world go, it is one of the better ones but when you look at the unending problems it has, that is nothing to mark it by. It's just one of the better big problems of large cities.
> 
> Since I moved to Ontario over 40 years ago, I have seen a continual downward spiral of growing homelessness, drugs, gangs, prostitution, crime and economic hardships.


Sounds like a lot of small towns everywhere.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Toronto elected a mega ass for Mayor in 2010.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I think Torontos problem is that it has exceeded expectations in spite of itself.
it was never meant to be Canada's biggest city (that was supposed to be Montreal), so it's infrastructure was never planned to support huge, growing populations, and at this point everythi has been built on top of each other so it's impossible to future plan any initiatives. Public transit sucks there and yet, that's the fall back when the traffic problems are discussed.
each government can't admit they don't know what to do about it, and resorts to short term band aid fixes.

and yes, for a population that loves to brag about how their property values have skyrocketed over the years, they're awfully tightfisted to pay their fair share of taxes which might help their situation out.
i wouldn't say it " sucks" though. But as every year goes by, I find it a less friendly place to visit. For me, over rated is more appropriate a descriptor than sucks.

fwiw, I spent the first 25yrs of my life in Toronto. Even though I can afford to live pretty much wherever I want now, I have no desire to return. My last connection to the city ended when my mothers house in Baby Point sold last month. I do wish however that instead of moving to the burbs in my mid 20's, that I had bought a condo at Y&E to sow my wild oats. THat would have been a blast!


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Toronto doesn't suck, not as long as my sister still lives there, the Leafs still play there, and The 12th Fret still operates there.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Mooh said:


> Toronto doesn't suck, not as long as my sister still lives there, the Leafs still play there, and The 12th Fret still operates there.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


The Leafs are synonymous with sucking, so you're hurting your own argument!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Diablo said:


> I think Torontos problem is that it has exceeded expectations in spite of itself.
> it was never meant to be Canada's biggest city (that was supposed to be Montreal), so it's infrastructure was never planned to support huge, growing populations, and at this point everythi has been built on top of each other so it's impossible to future plan any initiatives. Public transit sucks there and yet, that's the fall back when the traffic problems are discussed.
> each government can't admit they don't know what to do about it, and resorts to short term band aid fixes.
> 
> ...


A sensible post. Toronto is a fine city. It is. however, too big and sprawling for its own good. I used to joke that if I ran for federal office, my slogan would be "ABT: anywhere but Toronto". If you wanted to start a new business, I'd try and make it worth your while to do so anywhere but Toronto. If you wanted to emigrate to Canada, I'd come up with incentives for you to move anywhere but Toronto. None of that was intended to be a jab at the city or people. Rather, they deserve to catch their breath and grow at a more manageable pace, whilst allowing the many other smaller municipalities in Canada an opportunity to grow a little and develop more sustainable local economies.

If you're one of those who have the luxury of being a pedestrian most of the time, and live in one of the older neighbourhoods, it's great. There is no end of terrific walking neighbourhoods, full of local merchants, nifty buildings, and great eateries. Much like Montreal, you can just walk and walk and walk, and not notice you've covered a few miles, because there is always something to capture your attention. If you're visiting from out of town, and have to rely on a car to get everywhere you need to be, it is the very definition of hell.

So is it the drivers that suck? No. I'm sure the drivers would be entirely affable people somewhere else. But the distances they have to drive, and the misery they have to put up with daily, makes them ill-tempered, inconsiderate, ruthless, and generally unpleasant to be around. I credit that to the size of the city, and its rate of growth, and as always, the needless amalgamation that was forced on them by you-know-who.

But if you live a walking life there, it's as nice as the nicest places you've ever been to.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Electraglide said:


> Sounds like a lot of small towns everywhere.


Yes, it does. No prostitution or homelessness in most small towns but a lot of the other stuff is happening, even gangs.

- - - Updated - - -



Mooh said:


> Toronto doesn't suck, not as long as my sister still lives there, _*the Leafs still play there*_, and The 12th Fret still operates there.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


Is that what you call what the Leafs do?:smile-new:


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## whywhyzed (Jan 28, 2008)

the smell of sewage (human) is my only real issue with Toronto. I don't know if I just didn't notice it 20 years ago when I spent a lot of time there, or maybe it's a relatively new issue (since the floods of a few years ago maybe?). I find it overwhelming year 'round. Smell seems to be one sense that's hard to clear from the memory banks.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I've lived in the 3 western-most provinces and I notice the wind predominantly blows from west to east. And now I know why. Thanks for filling me in.


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## idma (Nov 7, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> As large cities in the world go, it is one of the better ones but when you look at the unending problems it has, that is nothing to mark it by. It's just one of the better big problems of large cities.
> 
> Since I moved to Ontario over 40 years ago, I have seen a continual downward spiral of growing homelessness, drugs, gangs, prostitution, crime and economic hardships.


I think you can say that for almost every big city in the world.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Scarborough.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

1) It sits right on top of what once was some of the best farmland in the province.

2) It is where the provincial gov't is centred.

3) Too many people.

4) A history of voting in mayors like Ford and Lastman multiple times (goes toward what kind of smarts the folks that live there have)


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I will at least agree with one.



Jim DaddyO said:


> 1) It sits right on top of what once was some of the best farmland in the province.
> 
> 2) It is where the provincial gov't is centred.
> 
> ...


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## leftysg (Mar 29, 2008)

4) A history of voting in mayors like Ford and Lastman multiple times (goes toward what kind of smarts the folks that live there have)

My brain interprets T. as the old city of Toronto...not the extended burbs that have been incorporated. It's that part of To. with the hotels, theatres, museums, stores, cultural neighbourhoods, that has the most appeal to me. If I recall correctly the good people of "old Toronto" never had much use for those mayors.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

idma said:


> I think you can say that for almost every big city in the world.


Yes, and isn't that a sad thing?


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## silvertonebetty (Jan 4, 2015)

because both baseball and hockey team weare one glove for no reason 

proud boogie owner


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Yes, it does. No prostitution or homelessness in most small towns but a lot of the other stuff is happening, even gangs.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...


I'm not too sure what small towns you go to Stead but a lot in B.C. and Alberta have both hookers and homeless. I'd say it's the same in Sask. and Man. too. I could take you to a lot of small towns there and within probably 1/2 an hr. find you both. Little places from 500 people on up. They just built a new JW hall about a mile or so from where I live. There's homeless and hookers very close to there.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> I've lived in the 3 western-most provinces and I notice the wind predominantly blows from west to east. And now I know why. Thanks for filling me in.


On occasion a good stiff breeze blows over the mountains and brings me the smell of salt water and pines. The scent of heaven and Home.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Electraglide said:


> . They just built a new JW hall about a mile or so from where I live. There's homeless and hookers very close to there.


there must be a market for it if it's so close.....


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

No matter where you go you'll find people who believe humans have only been on the earth for 6 ~ 7,000 years.

Cities, small towns, all have them.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Because I can no longer afford to live there.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

mhammer said:


> If you're visiting from out of town, and have to rely on a car to get everywhere you need to be, it is the very definition of hell.


Old cities and city-states protected themselves with physical moats and drawbridges. That's how I've viewed Toronto (downtown) for the last decade or so -- a protective moat of traffic. As/if the Gardiner gets dismantled, that'll be the raising of the drawbridges.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

There's infastructure issues no matter where you live, and there are worse cities to live in. 

Detroit or LA maybe...

Or cities nobody can afford like Vancouver or Victoria.

I'm done with big city life, but if I had to choose, it would be back to TO


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I like where I am living right now. It is really great if you choose not to own a vehicle like me. All four Mortimer and Leaside bus stops less than 40 seconds away. Only noise is the is the EMS and Fire trucks - really don't hear those in the winter. Got 3 beer stores, two LCBOs and a wine store less than 15 minutes away by bus. If I can't handle what I have on the bus (with arthritis in my knees) I use a taxi and have only had to do that 2-3 times a year. If I need a car, I use Autoshare and it is way more flexible and cheaper that car rental companies for short haul around the GTA. I've never had to worry about parking.

Negatives, I'm only a very short bus ride and three subways stops from 12th Fret.  G.A.S. pains more difficult to control.

But I shall be giving all that up in a month to go to Edmonton to spoil my 2 year old grand-daughter rotten.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Robert1950 said:


> I like where I am living right now. It is really great if you choose not to own a vehicle like me. All four Mortimer and Leaside bus stops less than 40 seconds away. Only noise is the is the EMS and Fire trucks - really don't hear those in the winter. Got 3 beer stores, two LCBOs and a wine store less than 15 minutes away by bus. If I can't handle what I have on the bus (with arthritis in my knees) I use a taxi and have only had to do that 2-3 times a year. If I need a car, I use Autoshare and it is way more flexible and cheaper that car rental companies for short haul around the GTA. I've never had to worry about parking.
> 
> Negatives, I'm only a very short bus ride and three subways stops from 12th Fret.  G.A.S. pains more difficult to control.
> 
> But I shall be giving all that up in a month to go to Edmonton to spoil my 2 year old grand-daughter rotten.


If you get a car in edmonton you'll probably lose it in a pot hole. That being said, there are less people living in Alberta or B.C. than there are in Toronto and area. By about a million. A short drive, say 45 min out of edmonton gets you in bare country.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> If you get a car in edmonton you'll probably lose it in a pot hole. That being said, there are less people living in Alberta or B.C. than there are in Toronto and area. By about a million. A short drive, say 45 min out of Edmonton gets you in bare country.


My daughter has a 2008 Dodge Ram she is not using, I am going to take of over the payments and likely buy out what is left, which is not much, by the late summer, when I should have my budget figured out. She is busy being a mother to a two year old and finds the family's second car, an, um, BMW X5 a little more appropriate. 

Edit: Her partner's family is from Tofield. I have been out and around the area. Gotta love the eleventy gazillion mosquitoes in June.


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## Guest (Jun 14, 2015)

'It's worth the drive to Acton' definitely rings true for me. Been here 21 years now and don't regret the move at all. 2
minute drive in any direction and you're in the country. LCBO and beer stores are crawling distance. Our property backs 
onto the train track (don't notice the train whistles that much), which is preferable over neighbours. If we didn't have 
family in T.O., nothing would bring us into the city.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

I grew up there! I love Toronto. I love it right downtown. So much to see and so much to do. Sometimes I wished I live downtown.


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## Rodavision (Feb 26, 2010)

I love LEAVING Toronto. I only go there when I have to these days. Music is the only thing that draws me into Toronto because Hamilton's music scene is nearly dead.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Rodavision said:


> I love LEAVING Toronto. I only go there when I have to these days. Music is the only thing that draws me into Toronto because Hamilton's music scene is nearly dead.


The music scene in TO is like a magnet! I was working a trade show last year and afterwards I hear bagpipes playing AC/DC's It's a Long Way to the top out on the street. Well you know that I just had to check it out. I sat there on the curb listening this guy for an hour. He was incredible. He had those pipes a rocking. I asked him to play Back in Black and that's when a huge crowd gathered around him. People were dancing, clapping and having such a good time. I talked to him for a bit after a few songs while he took a break. What a nice kid. The kid made out like a bandit. I saw people throw a few $5's and one guy threw a $20. It totally made my day for me.

I know your probably talking about the concert scene in TO but my path has crossed some amazing street buskers.


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

Rodavision said:


> I love LEAVING Toronto. I only go there when I have to these days. Music is the only thing that draws me into Toronto because Hamilton's music scene is nearly dead.


I keep hearing about Hamilton's burgeoning music scene?

is that not the case?


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## Rodavision (Feb 26, 2010)

I guess there might be a little here and there coming back but I miss the days of wandering down Hess Village with bands in the streets and bands playing inside a dozen clubs. Rock to Blues to Jazz and cover bands it was great. Any night of the week you could swing by and catch some bands playing, and there were at least a dozen other places nearby to also go. Now they have dance clubs and Mardi Gras which is all 18 yr old Mac students throwing up and fighting. 

Maybe there are some places bringing back bands but I would have to do some hard looking to find it.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Im in the same boat as laristotle.

Toronto has some great restaurants and neighborhoods to walk through, but the opportunity to have a house on a river where our family can fish, canoe, jetski, and just watch the wildlife (frogs, turtles, heron, swan, beaver, coyote-in the winter) campfires etc from our own backyard outweighs the benefits on the city, even if sometimes the commute makes you wonder. City people wont get it, but there is life outside the city.


pls excuse the mess, I have a floating dock project on the go. 
it also doubles as a skating rink in the winter


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## Guest (Jun 15, 2015)

That piece of paradise is worth the commute as far as I'm concerned.
Holland Landing's closer to T.O. than I am (not by much).


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Rodavision said:


> I guess there might be a little here and there coming back but I miss the days of wandering down Hess Village with bands in the streets and bands playing inside a dozen clubs. Rock to Blues to Jazz and cover bands it was great. Any night of the week you could swing by and catch some bands playing, and there were at least a dozen other places nearby to also go. Now they have dance clubs and Mardi Gras which is all 18 yr old Mac students throwing up and fighting.
> 
> Maybe there are some places bringing back bands but I would have to do some hard looking to find it.


We lived on one side (Jackson St.) and then the other (Market St.) side, of Hess Village throughout the late 70's, and while there were some decent places to eat, everything you describe seems to have been a bit of a flash in the pan during one narrowly-circumscribed period. It was not always "night-life central".


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## Rodavision (Feb 26, 2010)

Diablo said:


> Im in the same boat as laristotle.
> 
> Toronto has some great restaurants and neighborhoods to walk through, but the opportunity to have a house on a river where our family can fish, canoe, jetski, and just watch the wildlife (frogs, turtles, heron, swan, beaver, coyote-in the winter) campfires etc from our own backyard outweighs the benefits on the city, even if sometimes the commute makes you wonder. City people wont get it, but there is life outside the city.
> 
> ...


Wow that is incredible. Absolutely it's worth the drive.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

man i feel like eddie albert in reverse. (*green* *acres*) 
i'm totally not a city guy, but here i am living in the 3rd or 4th largest city in north america. i beg my wife to lets get out of here. one of these days i'm gonna slip 'er a mickey, and move all of us while she's passed out. i think the benefit to my sanity will outweigh the beatings


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

We have a cottage! Meh! 40 minutes drive north east of Pickering. Caesarea on the lake. 

The only way that I permanently would move out of the suburbs is if had a my very own (separate from the main dwelling) studio to hang out in. I know that I would for sure become a hermit. I am in good company though cuz I like me! lol (seriously it took me a long time to be comfortable in my own skin)


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I live in a town of roughly 8000, but it's too big for me. However, I need to work and have a location where my customers are, and I have my preferred arrangement of working from home. As much as living in a more rural area is appealing, I couldn't make a living that way. For years I've been told I could raise my rates considerably if I worked in the big smoke, but the urban lifestyle and conditions aren't conducive to my happiness. Lots of urban friends are urban either because they like it or they feel they don't have a choice. A compromise has worked for me.

Toronto? Nice place to visit but I couldn't live there.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

To tell the truth, when compared to cities of similar size in other parts of the world, Toronto does not come anywhere _near _"suck". 

In fact, it's a clean , safe and diverse place with amazing culture and opportunities, but put that many people together anywhere, and bad things and unhealthy conditions are bound to happen.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

cheezyridr said:


> man i feel like eddie albert in reverse. (*green* *acres*)
> i'm totally not a city guy, but here i am living in the 3rd or 4th largest city in north america. i beg my wife to lets get out of here. one of these days i'm gonna slip 'er a mickey, and move all of us while she's passed out. i think the benefit to my sanity will outweigh the beatings


Did I mention that my house is for sale?

Over that treeline is the 400 (30 mins to TO, if you miss it)

If you buy my house, I'll leave a guitar in it. I promise.

Jesus, my wife has a shit-fit when I put my son up on the interweb and I can't delete the f'n thing. Nobody steal my kid, okay?


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Good for you, chuck. My daughter and I use our backyard as a driving range as well


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Are there houses for rent in Acton/holland landing? And can my wife-to-be get a job as an OT within a not-ridiculous commute?

I don't like the 2-3 hour drive one way for band practice twice a week... and this tiny apartment even less. But I do have a job that pays better than most P/T work I'd get, and lets me hit the road...

Gonna look at Woodstock some more I suppose.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Diablo said:


> Good for you, chuck. My daughter and I use our backyard as a driving range as well


Thanks. These homes make great places for children to grow up. Shame we really are moving, but at least it's one step closer to getting lakeside. 

If I had your yard, my son would fish it every day. We've made fishing something special for us (just like my dad did with me). We actually fish down the river from you on some weird religious retreat - despite the owner a bit of an ass when it comes to money - I thought he'd be a bit more jesusy, ha.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Barrie is nice, you'll be fine


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Budda said:


> Are there houses for rent in Acton/holland landing? And can my wife-to-be get a job as an OT within a not-ridiculous commute?
> 
> I don't like the 2-3 hour drive one way for band practice twice a week... and this tiny apartment even less. But I do have a job that pays better than most P/T work I'd get, and lets me hit the road...
> 
> Gonna look at Woodstock some more I suppose.


Acton and Holland Landing are pretty far from each other... are you sure you meant to say Holland Landing? My sister is trying to rent the upstairs of her last home in Bradford - which is pretty close to holland landing. I also have a friend who is prepping to rent a house in Sharon (very close to the landing) as well.

- - - Updated - - -



Budda said:


> Barrie is nice, you'll be fine


Yeah, I'm just not used to subdivisions any more. We are only moving for my son, so he can have friends to play with. The things we do for them. My father would have built me a friend out of wood and pebbles and told me to shut up, haha.

If I move, I'll probably be able to buy a cottage, but I have a feeling it won't be the same...


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

adcandour said:


> If I move, I'll probably be able to buy a cottage, but I have a feeling it won't be the same...


funny, we moved up here and bought this house so we could sell our cottage! Over the years, we've come to see cottage ownership as a myth of relaxation. Not to mention, you can then double your property tax bills, 2 lawns to cut, 2 roofs to fix, another fridge to replace when it breaks and all your food from last week spoiled, etc. etc. etc. Cottages are great for people like teachers who can spend most of their summer there, commute there in offpeak times, or lucky folks that inherit them and the maintenance/upkeep demands don't seem as bad because they didn't have to pay for it outright. otherwise theyre a lot of work and expense for something youre going to use 10 weekends or so of the year, but incur costs for, all year long.
if you move to Barrie, my suggestion is, instead of buying a cottage, buy a boat, and keep it at a local marina. You can potentially be on the water and fishing/swimming in Simcoe 15min after leaving your house. if you get a cottage, youre going to buy a boat anyways.
our river is very picturesque, but too stagnant and mucky for swimming, but its only a 15 min boat/jetski ride to get to the open water of simcoe, where the fun begins!


Our cottage hit MLS yesterday actually.
Taxman will be happy with all the capital gains hes going to be collecting from me next year.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

While I have nothing against it, I've never understood the attraction of cottages. Apparently, my dad's family had "a country house" back in Poland, before the war, but I have no idea what that consisted of, whether they owned it or simply rented it for a couple weeks, only that it provided respite from their apartment life in town, and a bit of greenery. Apart from that, however, which was over 75 years ago, I can't think of a single member of my extended family, on either side, that has a cottage. We're just city people, I suppose. Myself, I don't fare well in the sunshine, and prefer to look at it from indoors or under a tree. In general, not much of an outdoor person, apart from a small bit of gardening, and the odd traipse through the woods every 4 or 5 years. Don't fish, and haven't gone swimming in 20 years.

On the other hand, there are plenty of places to live in a city where, if you're lucky, the general ambiance is very country-like. Our own neighbourhood is from the mid-1960's, so the properties are a bit larger (I think our lot is 60' x 100'), and the trees old enough to provide ample shade. In our particular case, our yard backs onto a schoolyard, and all the homes on the other side of the schoolyard have great big trees and hedges on the schoolyard side. The end of the schoolyard backs onto a ravine with a creek, big trees and a bunch of ducks that hang out by the footbridge. So when I stand by the kitchen sink, and look out the window, there's a big open space and lots and lots of big swaying trees, with very few buildings in sight. If the soccer league isn't occupying the yard, it feels a lot more rural than it really is, particularly for its close distance to downtown.

There's plenty of places like that in Toronto. Some good friends of ours live near Spadina and Eglinton. Their kitchen window also looks out onto a park with lots of swaying trees. It's a great walking neighbourhood, with plenty of local merchants, and they tend not to use their car all that much.

Again, not at all a slight against country living. I can understand the ire many feel towards that Toronto that feels like one cement bunker after another, interspersed with box stores, and the relief they feel when they escape it. But it's not ALL like that


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Cottages, boats, trailers all share common characteristics.

1. Money pits. They take maintenance, cost money for taxes and upkeep
2. Time consumers. People spend lots and lots of time and effort just getting back and forth.


If you own any of the above you pretty much have to use them every weekend to make it worthwhile.

A cottage may be a good investment. Boats and trailers are not.

I'd rather get a nice hotel room for the few weekends we really want to get away.


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## Guest (Jun 16, 2015)

Become close friends with people who have cottages.
26 years ago, my wife's friends loaned us their cottage
for a week for our honeymoon. What great friends.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

We have a cottage which is a 40 minute drive from our house. It's in Caesarea on the lake. We tore it down and wanted to renovate. The building codes of that particular hamlet stipulate that you must leave up one remaining wall of the old dwelling. That was a nightmare. Every flippin' weekend for almost 3 years. Up to the cottage to carry on. I got to the point where I would of gladly have taken a match to It. Double the work load! 

It's really a big myth if you think your going to relax at your cottage. Cutting the lawn, cooking, cleaning, laundry. I do all this shit at home too. My husband will not sell because we bought if off of his parents. One of their last wishes was for the cottage to remain in the family. We both promised to honor this request. 

When all is said and done, I love to grab a book and read. I never read at home. I have my a little practice amp up their so it's nice to be able to sit out on the dock and play. I keep it turned down so no one complains. I sit out at the end of the dock and take in the scenery. This is one of the very few perks of owning a cottage. It's definitely not the lifestyles of the rich and famous. Although some people would have you think otherwise!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Cottages, boats, trailers all share common characteristics.
> 
> 1. Money pits. They take maintenance, cost money for taxes and upkeep
> 2. Time consumers. People spend lots and lots of time and effort just getting back and forth.
> ...


We have a fifth wheel that we use a lot. We camp with our friends several times a year, use it for our summer conventions, have lived in it for a couple months down south in the winter and will be taking a three week travelling trip this summer to the east coast. 

I do agree that for most people, it is a costly venture and not that is doesn't cost us money but we bought used and over its lifetime will save us thousands on restaurants and hotels. 

On the other hand, I have had boats and I totally agree. Fun but not worth what you get out of it. But some people have so much money they don't know what to do with it, so some buy boats and expensive trailers and RV's and rarely use them.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Cottages, boats, trailers all share common characteristics.
> 
> 1. Money pits. They take maintenance, cost money for taxes and upkeep
> 2. Time consumers. People spend lots and lots of time and effort just getting back and forth.
> ...


When you factor in the total costs of ownership, I don't think cottages are great investments at all.
Boats and trailers, should never be thought of as investments either. Nor should $50k cars  they are all depreciating assets. their value is in whatever pleasure you derive from using them.
But I do see the appeal. before we had a cottage, we pissed away far too many days on the weekend running errands, going to the mall, watching tv etc. Im not one who likes big crowds, so the parades and festivals etc in the city in the summer are a big turn off. at least we got some nice photos from the cottage


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

@Diablo Firstly, GLWTS. Your home will definitely offset the cottage vibe - I'm really happy for you in that regard. There's nothing better than sitting back and saying "I did this" and "look what my children can enjoy, because of my hard work". Congrats, sincerely.

So, after trying to kill time in Barrie during a showing, we picked up our son from school and went into a nice subdivision with private beach/lake access. I wish I didn't. What do I do? Buy a small affordable home, resent the way-too-close neighbours, but have no financial stress, OR buy near my limit (my comfortable limit), and have a dream home that my family loves? It's a life decision I feel too ill-prepared to make. Mortgage rates make me nervous.

@mhammer - I too love city life. Rosedale, parkdale, Lawrence Village etc are all beautiful, but well out of my price range. The smaller "more affordable" homes that were meant for labourers back in the day are falling apart. Even the $2M homes in The Annex are a bit rough. I visit about 200 homes in Toronto a year and simply couldn't bring myself to buy one. Unless you do a complete rebuild (with the right contractor), you're just playing hot potato. The best built homes were built in the late 70s in the suburbs, imo (or custom homes in the early seventies).

@laristotle not a bad idea, but my friends are mostly artists with no cottages (or homes for that matter). However, one friend _does_ have 3 (yes 3) cottages on Lake Rosseau, but has a douche for a wife; I couldn't swim far enough from her to enjoy myself. You're a pretty laid back dude, but even you'd honkeytonk-man her with your acoustic after an hour or two.

@milkman - Yes, my inner rationalist says screw the cottage idea. Although I'm fortunate to have a circle of professionals that would help me pick the optimal lake-side dwelling, your concerns/comment mirror my own (rational side, haha).


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

With respect to the side discussion about cottages, I think the appreciation of a cottage depends on many factors. In my family, my old man was always provided with an abode, sometimes a pretty nice house, but it was never ours, we couldn't alter it at all, and we would never stay more than a few years in any town. In the mid '50s my folks inherited a small sum and immediately blew it all on a small cottage on Georgian Bay. THAT was home, it has been our family gathering place ever since, my parents even lived there full time for many years after they retired. It offered pride of place, consistency, community, activities, nature,and still does. All those other homes were okay (one is especially heartstrung) but the cottage was home, now for three generations. It's now a very humble fixer-upper, but we love it.

I spent last Sunday in Mississauga under a flight path from Pearson. Planes every few seconds to every few minutes. Freaky. Compared to Goderich where I live it felt positively claustrophobic, but compared to the cottage it's culture shock.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

> So, after trying to kill time in Barrie during a showing, we picked up our son from school and went into a nice subdivision with private beach/lake access. I wish I didn't. What do I do? Buy a small affordable home, resent the way-too-close neighbours, but have no financial stress, OR buy near my limit (my comfortable limit), and have a dream home that my family loves? It's a life decision I feel too ill-prepared to make. Mortgage rates make me nervous.


I say get the dream home. YOLO. Its highly unlikely youd ever lose money on it should your finances change, and its not like theyre going to hike up mortgage rates from 2.5% to 18% overnight, if they ever do (I don't think it will happen). The BOC knows how important it is to keep rates more or less where they are, for the sake of the economy.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

For me, Toronto does not suck.


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## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

Diablo said:


> if you move to Barrie, my suggestion is, instead of buying a cottage, buy a boat, and keep it at a local marina. You can potentially be on the water and fishing/swimming in Simcoe 15min after leaving your house. if you get a cottage, youre going to buy a boat anyways.
> our river is very picturesque, but too stagnant and mucky for swimming, but its only a 15 min boat/jetski ride to get to the open water of simcoe, where the fun begins!


A boat substituting for a cottage is expensive (I did it, years ago). A cottage offers eating, sleeping and washroom facilities. A boat which offers the same is not cheap, although it is admittedly cheaper than a cottage. The rub is that unlike a cottage, the boat will only depreciate.
Carrying costs are not at least limited to: marina slip rental, insurance, seasonal haul-out, steam cleaning algae off the hull, winterizing the engine(s)/outdrive(s), engine maintenance, lowering, fuel, guest mooring fees, lock fees… These costs amount to many thousands of dollars per year, even if the boat is paid for. Then there's the maintenance. I would leave work on Fridays and drive directly to the marina, where I often found my boat covered with silt blown in from the Holland marsh fields. I would spend the evening washing it down - it was an unwelcome chore on a hot day after a week of work. The reward was falling asleep in the berth when there was a fresh breeze gently rocking and bobbing the boat - heavenly!

Thirty five years ago, a round trip from Cook Bay to Manitoulin Island cost me $600 in fuel (35 cents/litre). I case you haven't heard: "A boat is a hole in the water where you throw money"

Before I sold my boat, I thought that I could rent a boat for a week or two, and it would be way cheaper than owning year-round. Life changes made it so that I never took up that option.
I haven't run a boat in nearly 35 years now, (sigh).


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

J-75 said:


> A boat substituting for a cottage is expensive (I did it, years ago). A cottage offers eating, sleeping and washroom facilities. A boat which offers the same is not cheap, although it is admittedly cheaper than a cottage. The rub is that unlike a cottage, the boat will only depreciate.
> Carrying costs are not at least limited to: marina slip rental, insurance, seasonal haul-out, steam cleaning algae off the hull, winterizing the engine(s)/outdrive(s), engine maintenance, lowering, fuel, guest mooring fees, lock fees… These costs amount to many thousands of dollars per year, even if the boat is paid for. Then there's the maintenance. I would leave work on Fridays and drive directly to the marina, where I often found my boat covered with silt blown in from the Holland marsh fields. I would spend the evening washing it down - it was an unwelcome chore on a hot day after a week of work. The reward was falling asleep in the berth when there was a fresh breeze gently rocking and bobbing the boat - heavenly!
> 
> Thirty five years ago, a round trip from Cook Bay to Manitoulin Island cost me $600 in fuel (35 cents/litre). I case you haven't heard: "A boat is a hole in the water where you throw money"
> ...


what size boat are you talking about? My 18ft runabouts maintenance annual costs barely add up to my monthly carrying costs for the cottage.
But I agree it is a depreciating asset that requires work. But at least the up front costs is merely a fraction of the cottage. even if the boat were written off entirely, youre out maybe 20-30k for a typical small family pleasure craft. im way over that in expenses for the cottage, easily. Id like a guarantee as well that i'll make a fortune on the sale of it as well


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## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

Mine was a 24ft SeaRay


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