# Zappa on the Mike Douglas Show



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

[video=youtube;kSPdg4yPwAg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSPdg4yPwAg[/video]


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Hmmmm...interesting.
few things I learned: 2 handed tapping prior to EVH.
zappa wasn't into drugs (big shocker to me)
musical tastes of Jimmie Walker and Kenny Rogers were more diverse than I expected.

tbh, as Zappa was before my time I've never really gotten him. If I were to play word association, the first thing that comes into my mind at the mention of his name is "weird". I assumed that was fuelled by drugs, as a lot of his contemporaries in that generation. Now, I don't know what it is...off beat humour? Randomness? Not sure.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Diablo said:


> If I were to play word association, the first thing that comes into my mind at the mention of his name is _*"weird"*_. I assumed that was fuelled by drugs, as a lot of his contemporaries in that generation. Now, _*I don't know what it is.*_..off beat humour? Randomness? Not sure.


That likely led to some of his popularity......weird and different.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

I would say that there were definitely elements of humour, satire and social commentary in Frank's music. He was also an incredibly intelligent person and to be honest, I think that worked against his music being accessible for a lot of people... he liked complexity and pushing the boundaries of musical expression and not simply writing 'hits'. Weird? Yes, I guess you could say that... certainly not mainstream.

Check out the early clip from the Steve Allen show of Zappa playing the bicycle and talking about his work. Very interesting.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

gtrguy said:


> Weird? Yes, I guess you could say that... certainly not mainstream.
> 
> Check out the early clip from the Steve Allen show of_* Zappa playing the bicycle*_ and talking about his work. Very interesting.


I saw that once. It was weird; very weird.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

gtrguy said:


> I would say that there were definitely elements of humour, satire and social commentary in Frank's music. He was also an incredibly intelligent person and to be honest, I think that worked against his music being accessible for a lot of people... he liked complexity and pushing the boundaries of musical expression and not simply writing 'hits'. Weird? Yes, I guess you could say that... certainly not mainstream.
> 
> Check out the early clip from the Steve Allen show of Zappa playing the bicycle and talking about his work. Very interesting.


What I cant figure out, is if he was weird just for the sake of it...ie bc he liked freaking with people minds/boundaries. The names of some of his albums, point in this direction.
Or, was he always just a weird dude that was just wired differently from most people?


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Diablo said:


> What I cant figure out, is if he was weird just for the sake of it...ie bc he liked freaking with people minds/boundaries. The names of some of his albums, point in this direction.
> Or, was he always just a weird dude that was just wired differently from most people?


Essentially he was a nerd. Clearly he was not getting laid in the early days. He was extremely intelligent and talented. His music is extremely complicated and layered. The songs, most of them, have a message. Usually political or anti religion. Most people would not know he was anti drugs and booze.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Diablo said:


> Hmmmm...interesting.
> few things I learned: 2 handed tapping prior to EVH.
> zappa wasn't into drugs (big shocker to me)
> musical tastes of Jimmie Walker and Kenny Rogers were more diverse than I expected.
> ...


I think many people make the assumption that Zappa was high a lot. Maybe it's because for many of us to think like Zappa (or as close as we can come) we would have to be on acid.

His reputation for weirdness is largely due to the wit and humour of his subject matter and the way he presented the music.

It's not for everybody, but I would recommend listening to Peaches en Regalia from the Hot Rats album.

It used to be in the jazz "real book" which was a collection of jazz classics we often used when I studdied music at Mohawk College.

Brilliant stuff IMO.


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

Big surprise for me also to find that he was not into drugs at all. He seemed a bit out of place on this show. Bright intelligent person ahead of his time. Imagine what he would have done had he lived longer. Thanks for posting. Really enjoyed it.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Frank was about smokes, coffee, hard work, deep thought, with humour thrown in for good measure.

As I've mentioned here several times, I had the good fortune to interview him in 1969, and one of the things he told me was that he always brought along a pad of music paper, a box of HB pencils, and a portable electric pencil sharpener with him, wherever he went, so that he could work on arrangements. He was _always_ working on alternate arrangements of pieces. "Arranging" is generally not something that rock musicians are familiar with. Hell, we have a hard enough time noticing when we're playing too loud, let alone thinking about what each and every musician is going to be doing, note by note, and syncing it all up.

Did folks notice what he plugged his guitar into? I do believe that is the first and only time I've ever seen a Pignose used "on stage".


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

Mark, was he a big name in the music business in 69? It must of been quite an honour to sit down with him. I bet this post is bringing back a lot of memories.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

It was _terrifying_. I was only 17, and fit in between a bunch of reporters from the major newspapers. We all got our 15 minutes.

My own mother ran into him in 1966 or so. She was working at the NFB in Montreal at the time (temp secretary), and Frank brought the band over to use their recording studio (perhaps to provide some soundtrack music for a film?) while they were playing in town. I believe they played at the legendary, and now long-gone, New Penelope - the usual Montreal venue for musicians of that type (corner of Park/Bleury and Sherbrooke). One of her co-workers had just come back from getting coffee or something, and said "Sheila, you_ have _to see this bunch of weirdos at the cafeteria". She told me about it when she came home from work that day. I was SOOOO jealous.

You could always tell when Frank was really enjoying himself playing, because his head (and ponytail) would sway from side-to-side. The guys in the band were very nice, and a few even showed me some interesting tips for producing images on 8mm film (I had a small movie camera with me, that had backed up). This was during the period in between the _Uncle Meat _and _Hot Rats _albums.

A "big" name? Within some limited circles, I suppose. The Mothers had been featured in a few magazines, and the albums were certainly in the stores (i.e., you didn't have to "order them special"). My meeting with Frank and the band took place at Terre des Hommes, following one of five free concerts they gave there that weekend. So, I guess that's big enough.


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

mhammer said:


> It was _terrifying_. I was only 17, and fit in between a bunch of reporters from the major newspapers. We all got our 15 minutes.
> 
> My own mother ran into him in 1966 or so. She was working at the NFB in Montreal at the time (temp secretary), and Frank brought the band over to use their recording studio (perhaps to provide some soundtrack music for a film?) while they were playing in town (I am assuming they played at The New Penelope - the usual Montreal venue for musicians of that type). One of her co-workers had just come back from getting coffee or something, and said "Sheila, you have to see this bunch of weirdos at the cafeteria". She told me about it when she came home from work that day. I was SOOOO jealous.
> 
> You could always tell when Frank was really enjoying himself playing, because his head (and ponytail) would sway from side-to-side. The guys in the band were very nice, and a few even showed me some interesting tips for producing images on 8mm film (I had a small movie camera with me, that had backed up). This was during the period in between the _Uncle Meat _and _Hot Rats _albums.


Interresting. Can you remember what you asked him way back then?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I don't remember it all, and unfortunately loaned the tape recording to a guy who never returned it. But I asked him about the balance between improvisation and arranged pieces. He noted that when he inserted an improvised segment, it was generally in anticipation of what he knew about the particular musician's style and capability. So it remained a coordinated piece overall, and whatever madness was inserted into it was a predictable sort of madness.

I also asked him if it bothered him when folks in the front row would be yelling out that they wanted to hear Louise Louie or Whipping Post, or simply wanted to hear "dirty lyrics", associating him more with stepping over acceptable lyrical boundaries of the time, rather than focussing on the music itself. He replied that if only one person in the audience "got it", that would be enough for him. That was on a Saturday afternoon. Two days later, the Monday morning Montreal Star announced that he had split up the band because "people wouldn't know good music if it bit them on the ass", a phrase I see repeated in this Downbeat article from two months later ( http://www.afka.net/articles/1969-10_Down_Beat.htm ). I know *I* had enjoyed all 5 shows immensely. I guess the weekend went a different way for him. It was, incidentally, the very same weekend that the first Woodstock festival was taking place.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

marcos said:


> Big surprise for me also to find that he was not into drugs at all. He seemed a bit out of place on this show. Bright intelligent person ahead of his time. *Imagine what he would have done had he lived longer*. Thanks for posting. Really enjoyed it.


Ppl say that every time a big star dies. I don't worry about that. Micks been around a long time and this is the most memorable thing hes done in 30 years:
[video=youtube;9G4jnaznUoQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G4jnaznUoQ[/video]

Enjoy what they leave us. Its probably their best.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I have been a Zappa fan since Hot Rats in 1969. I do remember the Pignose performance on Mike's show, and the bicycle thing on the Steve Allen Show. I have read his biography and know his politics are, libertarian. His attitude towards women are mostly "you are here to serve me". Very few like Ruth Underwood are an exception. As person, I am not impressed with Frank. As an intellect and musician, he is a genius.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

mhammer said:


> Two days later, the Monday morning Montreal Star announced that he had split up the band because "people wouldn't know good music if it bit them on the ass",


This is the attitude that turns and turned many off of Zappa. He was simply arrogant. That turns people off.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Maybe, but Frank WAS better than almost everyone else, so it was more a case of a realistic self image than arrogance.

I hear Bach was arrogant also.

I never wanted to be his buddy. I only wanted to hear his music.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> This is the attitude that turns and turned many off of Zappa. He was simply arrogant. That turns people off.


If you piqued his interest, he was engaged and enthusiastic. If you were simply repeating inanities he had heard 10 times too often, he was very ascerbic. That's why it was terrifying for me: because I had no intuition about what was going to interest him, and it was sheer dumb luck that I managed to stumble onto a few things of interest. I heard him handle one or two reporters asking such inanities before it was my 15 minutes, and direct them to his publicist "who would be happy to send them a nice pamphlet". The very portrait of "does not suffer fools gladly".

I will say that, speaking to band members that weekend, it had been a difficult tour. One told me of a show at a football stadium where they had been promised a PA, and when they showed up, it turned out to be a 35W Bogen for telling folks in the bleachers that someone with a blue Chevy Impala had left their lights on.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Maybe, but Frank WAS better than almost everyone else, so it was more a case of _*a realistic self image*_ than arrogance.


One who "thinks" about himself is called an "egoist"; one who talks about himself is called an "egotist". Neither of these types of people are much fun to be around or good examples to emulate.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

And they tend to like it that way.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

This was the last tour I seen Frank on. I miss the man

[video=youtube;B9DqykUsqRY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9DqykUsqRY[/video]


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> And they tend to like it that way.


Yes, they do seem to.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Recorded in 1968-69 on the Hot Rats Album - his first solo effort (that I am aware of) 

[video=youtube;D7VAOuIePVo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7VAOuIePVo[/video]


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Frank Zappa may have been an egoist, an egotist or perhaps he may have simply been more self aware than most people.
Regardless of all that, he was brilliant and we are much the less now without him. His testimony to the Senate on free speech will forever be something that earned my respect.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Personally, I respect a big ego if it has been earned.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

bluzfish said:


> Personally, I respect a big ego if it has been earned.


I don't.
Talent and ego need not be intertwined.
based on that, Steve Vai should have a bigger ego than Frank. At what point does it become simply intolerable?


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Diablo said:


> I don't.
> Talent and ego need not be intertwined.
> based on that, Steve Vai should have a bigger ego than Frank. At what point does it become simply intolerable?


The point that Steve Vai spouts off that he is a better musician than Frank Zappa. Don't get me wrong here. I'm sure he never will. I listen to and very much appreciate Steve Vai for his music as well as his humility. But he is not a living music pioneer and legend like Frank Zappa was.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I don't think the man was afforded the respect he deserved from the media, even the rock media, who saw him as too outside (my description) the norm. Being judged for that rather than his obvious musical stature was easier than researching the man and his music with a dispassionate, tolerant, and open mind. It was also fucking lazy. I love his music, even the things that are a little hard to listen to, because it is and was unusual, makes me think and try harder to listen. The more listenable stuff (to me) is sheer brilliance.

He was a genius musician who happened to play guitar, but we sometimes forget that folks like him also love and were loved, made mistakes and fixed them, took risks and succeeded or failed in much the same way as the rest of us, except he had more balls and more insight to help him than most of us.

Fwiw, being right doesn't make him arrogant.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

bluzfish said:


> The point that Steve Vai spouts off that he is a better musician than Frank Zappa. Don't get me wrong here. I'm sure he never will. I listen to and very much appreciate Steve Vai for his music as well as his humility. But he is not a living music pioneer and legend like Frank Zappa was.


That's debatable. I'll go to my grave thinking Vai may have been the best guitar player of my time. whereas, Zappa was "that weird guy from the 60's who discovered Vai...and gave his kids weird names before it was fashionable to do so".  Beyond the world of Guitar Geekdom, I don't see him as a legend at all, as I don't think his music is being passed through future generations the way, say led zeppelin or the beatles is.

I think that's why having an inflated ego is a bad thing. theres always someone who doesn't know you or isn't impressed by you, and will just think youre an ass.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Yeah, I can agree with that. It's a matter of perspective. Kanye West thinks he is a genius. I think he's a common ass.

BTW Zappa also 'discovered' Adrian Belew who I think is a very under-rated brilliant musician and one of my favourites of all time.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

bluzfish said:


> Yeah, I can agree with that. It's a matter of perspective. Kanye West thinks he is a genius. I think he's a common ass.
> 
> BTW Zappa also 'discovered' Adrian Belew who I think is a very under-rated brilliant musician and one of my favourites of all time.


exactly (Kanye).
In my era, if we wanted to listen to a weirdo genius, it was Prince. these days, I don't know if kids know him at all.
Its nothing against him or FZ. They just didnt make much of a mark on future generations. Like they said about Woodstock, you just had to be there to get it.

you know, Id heard Adrians name mentioned a lot (along with others like Steve Morse) in the guitar magazines in the '80's, but to this day, still not sure if ive ever heard his music.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Other than his solo stuff, my favourite Belew album is 'The Bears' with The Bears. It's the closest thing he's ever done to a 'commercial' project and probably the most palatable to most people. Here's one from the album from a reunion show in 2002...

[video=youtube_share;qOc0Wcyee0g]http://youtu.be/qOc0Wcyee0g[/video]


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

And Steve Vai - Dig Vai's shorts in this 

[video=youtube;TEnzdp71U78]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEnzdp71U78[/video]


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Whew, I'm glad that's over! Ha, ha, not what you maybe think. I kinda had to pee at the beginning of that but after I started listening, I didn't want to interrupt the perfect continuity of that piece, so I held it and held it and... in case you care, I made it... just.

Mesmerizing. Music like that wells up an indescribable feeling in me. Love ya Steve and love ya Frank!

I only got to see Farank Zappa once with Flo and Eddie back around the 200 Motels days. Here's a later one that was more like the crazy kind of show Frank did (with Adrian Belew in the WWII WAC outfit)...

[video=youtube_share;Ydc1pWz2E_4]http://youtu.be/Ydc1pWz2E_4[/video]


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

I don't think you can realistically compare Zappa to Vai. Vai is just one of a stable of guitar virtuoso's....he has done nothing to revolutionise the music world. Zappa on the other hand did much to bring many unknowns to the mainstream....Vai included. He was a tireless worker who was always looking to stretch boundaries musically and socially. He may not have a Stairway to Heaven song like Zep although Willy The Pimp or Dynamo Hum are equally great songs IMO.
Heck he's mentioned by name in one of the all time rock anthems!



Diablo said:


> That's debatable. I'll go to my grave thinking Vai may have been the best guitar player of my time. whereas, Zappa was "that weird guy from the 60's who discovered Vai...and gave his kids weird names before it was fashionable to do so".  Beyond the world of Guitar Geekdom, I don't see him as a legend at all, as I don't think his music is being passed through future generations the way, say led zeppelin or the beatles is.
> 
> I think that's why having an inflated ego is a bad thing. theres always someone who doesn't know you or isn't impressed by you, and will just think youre an ass.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

In the beginning... 

[video=youtube_share;1MewcnFl_6Y]http://youtu.be/1MewcnFl_6Y[/video]

In the end... 

[video=youtube_share;LxefFrh99k8]http://youtu.be/LxefFrh99k8[/video]


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I saw FZ with Steve Vai at the CNE stadium in Toronto. 

The funny thing is, even with the formidable chops Vai has, there was something about Zappa's picking technique and bursts of notes that made his soloing unique and more entertaining to me.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

[video=youtube;HpdvfTlKjP8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpdvfTlKjP8[/video]


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Diablo said:


> exactly (Kanye).
> In my era, if we wanted to listen to a weirdo genius, it was Prince. these days, I don't know if kids know him at all.


Prince was on SNL this past weekend. IN a rather unusual move, instead of dividing up his appearance into a tune before Weekend Update, and another before the last sketch, they gave him what seemed like about a single 12-minute stint, during which he did a medley of 3 or 4 tunes, ranging from smooth soul to some very hard rockin' stuff. Between him and Donna Grantis, his co-guitarist in the band, that is a force to be reckoned with.



> you know, Id heard Adrians name mentioned a lot (along with others like Steve Morse) in the guitar magazines in the '80's, but to this day, still not sure if ive ever heard his music.


Here's a nice intro, somewhere in between his more melodic stuff with the Bears, and his more "adventurous" stuff. A nice stroll through his technique. I"d love to see Belew and David Torn on the same stage.
[video=youtube;yM5qTMXJkT0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM5qTMXJkT0[/video]

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