# I found something that has been confusing me for a long time



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I have been working away at learning my major scale patterns and just found something that has been a wrench in the gears for a long time. I just found that this pattern:










in some of my pages is called pattern 4, in others position 1, and in others E shape.

How many times have I tried to think Pattern 1 and got it mixed with 4 would be hard to calculate....but a lot. Now the question is...what is it?....really? Is there a common name that everyone can agree on?


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## -ST- (Feb 2, 2008)

Hi Jim DaddyO.


Jim DaddyO said:


> I have been working away at learning my major scale patterns and just found something that has been a wrench in the gears for a long time. I just found that this pattern:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know these terms "pattern 4, in others position 1, and in others E shape." 

I see a C shape moved up two frets.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I should ad that I understand calling it pattern 4 and the relationship to E pattern (4th letter of CAGED).


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## -ST- (Feb 2, 2008)

And when I put back the first two frets it looks like this.


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## -ST- (Feb 2, 2008)

If that doesn't help - I'll step away and let someone who has studied music take a shot.


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## deadear (Nov 24, 2011)

Think of that scale as E shaped bar Chord. Slide it up the neck . Root ( first) on the E string. Once you learn where the first ,third and fifth scale steps are on the chord you just fill in the blanks to play your scale. 7 scale steps in the major and then it repeats itself up a octave.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I have been working away at learning my major scale patterns and just found something that has been a wrench in the gears for a long time. I just found that this pattern:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There probably isn't a common name that everyone can agree on. You just need to find a terminology that works for you.

Personally, I think of this as a "two-octave major scale starting with the 2nd finger on the sixth string".


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

OK, thanks for reminding me of another weird thing in theory. This one kinda goes with the "why do we start learning with C when A comes before C" category.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## -ST- (Feb 2, 2008)

Hi Jim DaddyO


Jim DaddyO said:


> OK, thanks for reminding me of another weird thing in theory. This one kinda goes with the "why do we start learning with C when A comes before C" category.


C scale on the piano has no black keys.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I'm a pretty linear thinker, stuff like this boggles my mind and really slows me down.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

I don't know if this will help you but it was an interesting read go to www.get-piano-lessons.com this takes a few minutes to read trough.


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## puckhead (Sep 8, 2008)

-ST- said:


> I see a C shape moved up two frets.


I see a C, an A on the front edge, a G, an E on the front edge.
don't see the D, but I see a D7 

I read a good article recently on how the CAGED system works together down the neck.
will try to find it.


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## puckhead (Sep 8, 2008)

puckhead said:


> I read a good article recently on how the CAGED system works together down the neck.
> will try to find it.


here it is. was a game changer for me. 
well, it's still recent, but a light bulb went off

http://www.premierguitar.com/articl...buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

puckhead said:


> here it is. was a game changer for me.
> well, it's still recent, but a light bulb went off
> 
> http://www.premierguitar.com/articl...buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer



Thanks, I will peruse that later today. I am still not sure weather the pattern shown first (with root on 6th string) is pattern 1 or 4, but it sure has mixed me up for a lot of years. Being aware of it now, maybe I can wrap my head around it and get to memorizing these scale shapes (along with their associated degree of the scale). I have been pretty diligent on getting the C maj scale down, but translating that down the board to G maj (which is the next key I want to work on) is near impossible when the patterns are all mixed up in your head. What a place to be after having a guitar for over 30 years!


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Thanks, I will peruse that later today. I am still not sure weather the pattern shown first (with root on 6th string) is pattern 1 or 4, but it sure has mixed me up for a lot of years. Being aware of it now, maybe I can wrap my head around it and get to memorizing these scale shapes (along with their associated degree of the scale). I have been pretty diligent on getting the C maj scale down, but translating that down the board to G maj (which is the next key I want to work on) is near impossible when the patterns are all mixed up in your head. What a place to be after having a guitar for over 30 years!


At the risk of further confusing you...

You may want to try learning the third, fifth and octave of the scale relative to the root (i.e. the root chord arpeggio) and then fit in the remaining notes. I've recently started thinking of my scales this way as a result of playing bass, and it has helped me. I find that there is actually less to remember - if that makes any sense.


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

It's a G major scale in the first position.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Shark said:


> It's a G major scale in the first position.


Umm...

Second. But yes, it's an apt description.


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## -ST- (Feb 2, 2008)

Hi Shark,


Shark said:


> It's a G major scale in the first position.












Yes I see that (now) if you include the open strings. Does first position include notes above the third fret?


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I was using the pic without thought of a nut, just the pattern, so the key could be anything, as long as the root in on the 6th string. Perhaps I should have used:










instead to avoid confusion. As with the first one, the nut is not indicated, so any key so long as the root is on the red dot.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

If you start on the A 6th string, it is also an A Dorian scale, I think.



-ST- said:


>


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

bw66 said:


> Umm...
> 
> Second. But yes, it's an apt description.


You know, I always thought it was the second position, too, but I Googled to confirm and almost unanimously saw people saying it was the first position. Don't tell me that people on the internet are wrong! sigiifa



-ST- said:


> Yes I see that (now) if you include the open strings. Does first position include notes above the third fret?


I think perhaps it's called the first position with the open strings and second position without them. Ah, well. 



Robert1950 said:


> If you start on the A 6th string, it is also an A Dorian scale, I think.


It would be exactly the Dorian mode if it went from A to A, but it goes from G to A, which means that it's not really exactly the A Dorian or the G major (G Ionian), in a way.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

-ST- said:


> Does first position include notes above the third fret?





Shark said:


> You know, I always thought it was the second position, too, but I Googled to confirm and almost unanimously saw people saying it was the first position. Don't tell me that people on the internet are wrong! sigiifa
> 
> I think perhaps it's called the first position with the open strings and second position without them. Ah, well.


At the risk of de-railing the thread with my nit-picky-ness...

Strictly speaking, you are in first position if your first finger would land at the first fret, second position if it would land at the second fret, and so on.

So in first position, you could fret notes at the first through fourth frets without stretching (too much).


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

bw66 said:


> At the risk of de-railing the thread with my nit-picky-ness...
> 
> Strictly speaking, you are in first position if your first finger would land at the first fret, second position if it would land at the second fret, and so on.
> 
> So in first position, you could fret notes at the first through fourth frets without stretching (too much).



Yeah, I thought that too. "position" refers to the fret your index finger falls on. At least I thought that was the common reference.


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## -ST- (Feb 2, 2008)

Hi Jim DaddyO,





Jim DaddyO said:


> I found something that has been confusing me for a long time.



And now it's confusing me too. 

I don't have any formal training and I have looked at things like this as devices or strategies for both learning and communication. 

If you play primarily by ear (that's me) and don't need to communicate what you're doing with others (that's me again), ... well I haven't needed labels for what I'm doing. I do see and hear patterns all over the neck, but haven't read enough to know what they are called. 

I'm not discouraging you from the pursuit. I'm curious about the motive for the labels ("Now the question is...what is it?....really? Is there a common name that everyone can agree on? ").


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

-ST- said:


> Hi Shark,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can't see why there is so much confusion, using the diagram above think of it as starting on the third fret 6th string. You would be playing the following notes
G A B C D E F# G or a G Major scale
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1(octave)
If you started on the third fret 6th string and played the following note
G A bB C D E F G this is the dorian scale starting on the G note in this case you are playing the F major scale
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 1(octave)

Lets go up two frets to the 5th fret 6th string we now have an A note if we play the notes on the diagram above we would play
A B C# D E F# G# A an A major scale
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 *octave
start on the 5th fret 6th string and play the dorian scale you would play
A B C D E F G A this would be the G Major scale 
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 1(octave) 

So simplified playing a G dorian (mode) is playing the F major scale

Like wise playing the A dorian scale (mode) you are playing the G major scale

The major scale is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1(octave)
the dorian scale is 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 1(octave)

so playing the diagram above starting on the 6th string 5th fret you will never get an A dorian scale you will always get a major scale and this is true no matter which fret you start on.
The difference between the two scales is the dorian has a b3 and a b7.

now that I have confused you further I will take my leave.


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## gtrchris (Apr 1, 2007)

Hope I'm not straying too far away from this thread's focus, but maybe a different view may help. Positions on the guitar can be confusing(especially 1st position because of the open string notes available) but also because the 1st finger can on many occasion slip out of the position to reach a note "not in the position" and return back to the original position.(more on this below)
The guitar is a great instrument in that it easy to transpose a fingering pattern(like the standard one position 2-octave pattern) to different positions(frets) and voila you're playing in a different key. It's great, but at the same time bypasses all the rudimentary training(theory) that most musicians learn, mainly about key signatures.
Often guitar players get "locked" into playing in one position because they "see" the guitar positionally as if one key equals one position. We all know players and maybe even are or were rock/blues players who played pentatonic minor and blues scales in one position never venturing out side that one position.
If you know your key signatures(all of them) then you can essentially play in all keys in any position on the guitar. Of course you'll be limited by the notes available in the position you're in,and occasionally have to stretch your 1st finger out of position(refered to above), and you won't be able to always start on the tonic note(doh) but you'll be able to play all the notes available in that position for the key you're in. In this way you'll come to understand the guitar fingerboard more intimately and also understand modes(indirectly) not just based on "fixed" finger patterns(you should know these too) but you'll be able to choose the notes you want to play and the position you want to play them in.
Of course this will take time, and lots of study and practise, but it will pay big dividends.

For those who are interested, here's a challenge
Try to figure out all the notes in 1st position on the guitar relative to each of the major keys.
For example; play all the available notes in: 
C major in 1st positon ascending from the 6th string up to the 1st
the notes available would be: 
6th e(open) f, g frets(or fingers) o,1,3
5th a(open) b,c frets o,2,3
4th d(open) e, f frets 0,2,3
3rd g(open) a frets 0,2
2nd b(open) c,d frets 0,1,3
1st e(open) f,g frets 0,1,3

Now play all the notes for Dbmajor(5 flats) in 1st position

6th F,Gb,Ab frets 1,2,4
5th Bb,C,Db frets 1,3,4
4th Eb,F,Gb frets 1,3,4
3rd Ab,Bb frets 1,3
2nd C,Db,Eb frets 1,2,4
1st F,Gb,Ab frets 1,2,4

Now D major(2 sharps)
6th E(open) F#,G 0,2,3
5th A(open) B,C# 0,2,4
4th D(open) E,F# 0,2,4
3rd G(open) A 0,2
2nd B(open) C#,D 0,2,3
1st E(open) F#,G 0,2,3

Now Eb major(3 flats)

6th F,G,Ab 1,3,4
5th Bb,C 1,3
4th D,Eb,F 0,1,3
3rd G,Ab,Bb 0,1,3
2nd C,D,Eb 1,3,4
1st F,G,Ab 1,3,4

Now Emajor(4 sharps) try and figure the rest out as an exercise


Fmajor(1 flat)


F#major(6 sharps)



G major(1 sharp)


Ab major (4 flats)


A major( 3 sharps)


Bb major(2 flats)


B major (5 sharps)

After all these are done, move up to the 2nd position and start all over again, and so on.........



Hope this helps...if you have any questions don't hesitate.....
Cheers
Chris


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Wow chris, my head just exploded....to big of a bite right now. Just getting the C maj (Am) scale under my fingers and trying to start on the G maj (Em). But I can see that as a cool workout in the future. 

I think the whole thing got derailed when lots of folks assumed there was a nut represented in the diagram, there is not. It is just a "box" of any major scale with the root on the 6th string, second finger, as represented in my 2nd diagram (of the same thing, only the roots are the red dots). The confusion is that some folks call that "box" pattern 1 and others call it pattern 4 (which again changes when you talk minor keys). So when I was practicing and wanted to go up the neck to the next pattern, I would get confused because I would not know weather I was going to pattern 2 or 5 as they are also interchanged in name.....and so on. Now that I know that the names are not consistent, I hope it makes it easier to understand. As long as I am consistent with them and recognize that others may not be calling it the same thing I (or the next person) am.

Along with the box pattern I am also trying to get the degree (number) of the scale named too. On top of that, I am trying to get the note names (sans accidentals) on the fret board down (thus taking so long with C major). That is a lot of brain work for an old fart like me. I work a bit at it every day, but take the time to also play the songs I enjoy playing and learning. It will eventually stick and at some point I think I will be able to move the patterns to any key I want. I just sent an e mail to L&M to see if I can get the foot switch for my G DEC. That way I can use the looper and start playing scales over the looped chord, which I think will help a lot. 

Over all there have been a lot of interesting points of view, and it shows me once again, that there is more than one right answer when it come to guitar. I am again reminded why this is my favorite forum.


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## gtrchris (Apr 1, 2007)

Jim D, I think the looper idea is great- hearing the scale relative to a chord is really fundamental and is the beginning of selectively choosing notes that you like to play over chords= improvisation.
If you can find any of Dave Celentano's books, in particular Modal Jams and Theory and Monster Scales and Modes they are awesome as the first book has a jam cd for each of the modes along with fretboard diagrams w/dots and standard notation, the 2nd book expands farther into more exotic scales with lots of scale chart diagrams similar to the ones you're using.
Hope this helps...I agree with you a little bit each day.... no need to fret over it


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Oh, I should add that on top of everything I am trying to break the scale patterns down to make up all the chords of the key i.e. the 1st 3rd and 5th of the scale make the major root chord (in the key of C...C major), the 2nd, 4th and 6th make the 2nd minor chord (Dm), the 3rd, 5th and 7th make the minor 3rd chord (Em), and so on up to the dim 7th.


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

Jim,

Stuff like this is the downside of all these shortcut type "systems" people are taught. I have literally NEVER thought like that or had any of these types of confusions because many years ago I took what many consider the "hard way" - which is actually the short cut. Here's what you NEED to do.

First the basics of scale construction (very basic):
All notes have 2 frets (tone) distance between them.
EXCEPT FOR E>F & B>C which have one fret (semitone)

Got it? Two frets for all - except those exceptions.

Now get your self some guitar neck paper - Google it, and print some out.

You know the names of your open strings yes? (E,A,D,G,B,E). So now draw a little dot on each *natural* note of the neck. So do the low E string (E>F one fret, F>G two frets, G>A two frets, A>B two frets, B>C ONE fret, C>D two frets, D>E two frets. Repeat...

Do this for each string. When you are done you have the entire neck matrix for the C Major scale. With this now go about breaking it down into 3 note per string regions. Start with EFG (next string) ABC etc... Then do the next block FGA (next string) BCD etc..

When you are done you will see how they all interconnect. You can number them then if you like. The block that starts with the notes CDE would be #1. These are also the modal shapes. 

Take each block and start finding familiar chord shapes within each (hint - construction of most chord types means the use of every OTHER note. Skip the one in between).

Draw this out often and make up your own blocks. People avoid this kind of thing because they see it as a lot of work... It's not. It's the other thing. Because i did this early on I have always seen the major scale as a large pool of available notes extending out in all directions. I practice it this way too. Up and down the length of the string. In blocks, Diagonally etc.

This WHOLE matrix is movable. It slides up and down the string. Imagine if you printed this out to scale on a transparency paper they used to use for overheads. Move it up and down the neck and whatever note it starts on is the key (or tonic) of the scale. But work with it in C first. Get it down well, then move it around.

Try it.

I did a blog post where I explain this in more detail:
http://sixstringobsession.blogspot.ca/2010/11/build-your-own-box-patterns.html


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Jeremy....Yes I am doing similar to all that. I know which notes have only a 1/2 step between them and I will go through A to G and pick out all those on the neck (find all the c's, find all the a's, etc). Recently, I have been taking little 2 to 4 note sequences (riffs) and trying to figure out where else they are on the neck. I also play a little computer game called fretpro, which will put a dot randomly on a fret board drawing and you have to identify the note. An observation I have made is that I tune into the "box" positions better than anything. Now, I know that is restricting but I don't mind pentatonic wanking, lol. I would be happy to be able to carry a couple bars of soloing in either a major key or some minor blues stuff (I have even put some major scale notes into minor riffs as passing tones....woo hoo). I am really impressed but chord fragments and small runs in playing, epitomized (IMHO) by SRV doing Little Wing (which I have set out to learn several times and failed...lol). I really am not interested in being able to play like Steve Vai or Satch (but I like to listen to them), I will leave that kind of mastery to younger folks. I am a bit more basic than that. I am having fun and enjoying it, which is the point of the whole thing anyways. I am considering taking a few lessons in the future, but I am not sure how to evaluate my playing and exactly where I want to go. Which is probably why I study so many different things at the same time. I like learning songs too. I have a nice collection in my binder, some I can play without the sheet in front of me. Every once in a while I have a question, and so I start threads like this one. It usually gives me a great answer, plus a whole bunch of other things to explore. A great thanks to everyone here!! When you have no destination, you can just relax and enjoy the ride!


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

See if this helps out...

http://www.theguitarsuite.com/major-scale-for-guitar-2/


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Jeremy....Yes I am doing similar to all that. I know which notes have only a 1/2 step between them and I will go through A to G and pick out all those on the neck (find all the c's, find all the a's, etc). Recently, I have been taking little 2 to 4 note sequences (riffs) and trying to figure out where else they are on the neck. I also play a little computer game called fretpro, which will put a dot randomly on a fret board drawing and you have to identify the note. An observation I have made is that I tune into the "box" positions better than anything. Now, I know that is restricting but I don't mind pentatonic wanking, lol. I would be happy to be able to carry a couple bars of soloing in either a major key or some minor blues stuff (I have even put some major scale notes into minor riffs as passing tones....woo hoo). I am really impressed but chord fragments and small runs in playing, epitomized (IMHO) by SRV doing Little Wing (which I have set out to learn several times and failed...lol). I really am not interested in being able to play like Steve Vai or Satch (but I like to listen to them), I will leave that kind of mastery to younger folks. I am a bit more basic than that. I am having fun and enjoying it, which is the point of the whole thing anyways. I am considering taking a few lessons in the future, but I am not sure how to evaluate my playing and exactly where I want to go. Which is probably why I study so many different things at the same time. I like learning songs too. I have a nice collection in my binder, some I can play without the sheet in front of me. Every once in a while I have a question, and so I start threads like this one. It usually gives me a great answer, plus a whole bunch of other things to explore. A great thanks to everyone here!! When you have no destination, you can just relax and enjoy the ride!


Sounds like a great way to do it!

Still I urge you to do as I suggest. Get a coffee and some neck paper and start writing it all out. Do it often. You will be surprised the observations you make when you start looking for things like repeating patterns, chord shapes. The more you get comfortable with this bird's eye view the more confident your guesses will become.

BTW - Jimi and Stevie were simply using this approach. When you stop thinking of a scale cluster as "soloing material" and begin to see it as a pool of options chord-ally as well everything opens up. These notes I am asking you to draw out is where all that stuff lives.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Nice link Jimi, and Jeremy...I am going to look for neck paper and print a bunch off.


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## Analogman (Oct 3, 2012)

I haven't read down throught all the posts so your question may have already been answered. I'm just starting to learn my theory, with no formal training I should add, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Position 1: My understanding is that western music is based off the diatonic scale, the diatonic scale is broken down into 7 parts/shapes (the modes). The shape your refereing to is the first shape in the 7 parts (position 1), the key is irrelavant.

Position 4 and E: Are both based off the CAGED system, if you're playing an E shape barre chord (4th letter in CAGED), again the key is irrelavant, and you play that shape you're playing the Ionian/Major scale. For example if you're playing a G barre chord (3rd fret) and play that shape over top of it you're playing G Major scale, if you're playing a D barre chord (10th fret) and playing that shape you're playing a D Major scale and so on... 

Hope that helps and wasn't too confusing!


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