# Amplifier Break Up



## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Hey oh

OK sometimes a question is asked and answered and in this case, it was asked but the answer went over my head. SO, I am going re-quote the question (as I found it really well written) and ask for this to be re-answered:



> _From_: "JeffinMS" <[email protected]>
> _Date_: Sun, 11 Jun 2006 03:27:25 GMT
> I see a lot of comments about breakup and see a lot of posts on other forums
> concerning "early breakup" and "late breakup". So I have a couple of
> ...


What I would LOVE to see/hear is a visual demonstration of creating the breakup tone (The FOR DUMMIES version ;p). I would also like to know why this tone comes about. Is it a bias voltage range issue, or a plate voltage limit being reached, or a power supply brownout?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I'll sit back and wait for the answers to this. Sounds interesting. I normally have my set up to be clean and get my breakup from pedals. But even my 30 watt amps with Celestion Blues, when pushed will add that little extra hair from the amp and from speaker breakup. I like the combination of the pedal and amp breakup.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> I'll sit back and wait for the answers to this. Sounds interesting. I normally have my set up to be clean and get my breakup from pedals. But even my 30 watt amps with Celestion Blues, when pushed will add that little extra hair from the amp and from speaker breakup. I like the combination of the pedal and amp breakup.


For me, Ive the opposite issues of not having a tube amp (that's coming soon) and worse, even if I did, past 2 the volume is too loud in the apartment so my "try it and see" is very limited :/


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

The breakup of the speaker is also a factor here. Some speakers distort much earlier than others.

Cheers

Dave


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

keeperofthegood said:


> For me, Ive the opposite issues of not having a tube amp (that's coming soon) and worse, even if I did, past 2 the volume is too loud in the apartment so my "try it and see" is very limited :/


To me a solid state amp has a very ugly breakup. You don't play SS amps for the breakup. Even the distortion channels many of them had were awful. I've played many a mix of SS and tube amps in the past 30 some odd years. And even the tube amps I played were high powered so getting a nice over drive even with a pedal was always a challenge. Its only in the past 3 years that I really took the time to branch out and try the smaller amp builders and also go with lower powered tube amps to get that tube saturation that I hear everyone talking about. I have to say that what I am hearing is more in line with what the sound I have had in my head. At first I was a little taken back that nothing was ever as sparkly clean as what I was used to from SS amp or tube amp like a twin. Even setting my current amps to the cleanest I can possibley get them there is still that little bit of hair on the notes. And when you crank them there is even more. I get a lot more natural compression that makes me not need the compressor pedal as much. To me everything sounds fuller and fatter. For me to say what is going on technically, I wouldn't have a clue. When it comes to amps and guitars I'm not technical at all. I just love to play and know what I want to hear.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

i have one of those marshall valvestate 80 watt amps- its ss, but has a 12ax7 in the preamp.
you can get passably good distortion sounds at low volume, and it sounds pretty good cranked too-
for me, its the only amp i have that is loud enough for playing with a drummer, so thats why i keep it- i can slave it using one of my little tube amps if necessary to improve the sound.
ive also been using a pod for a couple years, and ive also messed about with amplitube and guitar rig- digital software modellers.
these sound ok too-
but aside from, the more pleasing, compressed breakup that a cranked tube amp has, its far more dynamic to me than a ss or digital solution.
you can play a tube amp- it responds to your attack on the strings, and has almost a life of its own.
ive heard ss amps and digital units create nice tones, and pleasing breakup- but its not the same.
i guess because the mechanical creation of the breakup is much different in a tube amp.


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## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

I'll take a shot.

Breakup in this sense is the point where the tubes are driven into distortion. The description "early breakup" and "late breakup" is referring to the amount of clean headroom in an amp. In other words, how loud it will get before it distorts. A 50 watt Marshall has an earlier breakup than a 50 watt Highwatt due to circuit design. 

And that's my understanding of it.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Some of the difference has to do with how an amp actually does breakup! Breakup is really distortion. The idea is to have PLEASING distortion!

There is a "psycho-acoustic" quality to how a vacuum tube distorts. There is a long ramp from clean to dirty and for most of the first 3/4's or so the human ear doesn't hear it as "dirt". Most of us humans can't hear less than 3-5& distortion directly. We Do notice a different timbre to the note, which is what makes a guitar string sound different from that of a violin or a piano wire!

As you drive a tube amp into distortion you begin by hearing the tone get "thicker" and "warmer". This process will go a long way before the distortion actually gets fuzzy or harsh. The tube tends initially to round off the sharp peak of a wave, rather than clip it off. It's clipping that sounds harshest.

Solid state amps work differently. Basically, the signal stays clean until you hit the limit of what the amp can amplify. At that point the wave is simply clipped. Crank the amp harder and the signal is clipped even lower. This sounds very harsh indeed, like a fuzzbox.

So a tube amp when it breaks up is actually distorting, but it's a NICE distortion!


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

Wild Bill is 100% right...

I'll add

The four terms that should concern us are 

Breakup, Harmonics, Headroom 

and Sustain 

Breakup is the point at which distortion becomes audible in the audio output of a guitar amp...
Tube amps tend to break up progressively with a rainbow of distortion harmonics 

Harmonics are the component overtones of a musical note that help one differentiate one instrument 
from another ... a flute has very few overtones compared to a violin and a distorted electric guitar has many 
in most cases tube amplification stages add musical harmonics to a tone being amplified 

Headroom (or clean headroom) is a measure of how loud and amp gets before the harmonics and overtones become more dominant than the original note 

Sustain is an essential component of a lead guitar tone with"clean sustain" being harder to achieve than high gain distorted sustain -- think SRV or Albert King 

These are the elements of Guitar tone that we desire and hear in our favorite recordings ... various amp designers work with these elements to try and create a signature sound by combining these sonic elements 

Bottom line is a good amp design should sound Musical and provide adequate sustain for lead playing 
IMHO no solid state design has achieved a good mixture of these elements, conversely most tube designs 
naturally combine these elements to varying degrees... since they are inherent in the technology, and at one point were even considered undesirable effects of tube amplification 

For example most tube amps run at high voltages and have a poorly regulated power supply... the instability of these power supplies gives most vintage amp designs their touch, squish or feel

Solid state amps run at lower voltages and have much stiffer power supplies automatically creating a different playing feel 

there are many more reasons and examples... 

a textbook example of break up would be Hendrix's WIld thing at Monterey 

yes I know hes' hammering the amp with a Fuzz face as well 

but he is also Pushing his early 100 watt marshalls Flat out 

you hear the powersupply bouncing around, the notes swirling and morphing with the power flow in the amp and all of the elements of tone 

Hendrix has an early HIGH headroom amp and he has pushed it fully into BREAK UP 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PShb9YiCEy0 

Marshall Kept stiffening up the powersupply of their amps during this period ... I wonder why ? 

Here's a guy with a tweed champ 

a tweed champ is 4 watts has almost no headroom and is Broken up almost right away 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjhrjgqwPtI


a single tube in the pre amp won't do the trick since its really about how the whole amp circuit responds to guitar input 

here's an epiphone valve JR ... they sound broken up with NO headroom when stock ... they are an OK design 

its only 5 watts so it still has no headroom, however since they are version of a tweed champ one is able to change things around enough to 

get more hang time between "clean" and full "break up" 

here's
the stock amp 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhcQCv420oQ 


the silly hi gain version at 1.07 you can hear the power supply pumping like in the hendrix vid 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg9Q7o2G9w4

Finally 
tweaked for VERY SMALL PUB use (ie like the Carrington Arms in Burlington) 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tq24j3xPw0

the power supply is more stable, there is some added headroom and the sustain has increased for lead playing 

P


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Good comments fellas however, one of the most important elements to breakup is the speaker. It's the transducer in which everything else is channeled through. It's influence with respect to breakup can be the difference between an OK sounding amp amd an amazing one. It's the one change you can make to an amp which will have the most dramatic results....for better or worse IMO


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Hmm


Speaker distortion is the end of the line for the signal for sure. I have seen a lot of "clone" amps, mostly of the Fender amps. Though to be fair, they have not been "exact" duplicates, as lots of them have different OT's. So, though everything up to the OT was the same, the end tone of the amp is characteristically different.


I was looking at a FET circuit, feeder of B+ to the plates that would shift up the voltage on the plate as the signal level into the grid went up, giving you headroom essentially. The circuit example had a 270volt PS but was only using 240volts on the plate, the 30 volt difference was given or taken with signal level in. Now, how that fits into this discussion I am not sure, but I think it probably does LOL 1AM I am tired @[email protected]


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

here's an example of a clean amp entering breakup at approx 58 seconds...and at 2:30...

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