# Who in your band tends to be too loud?



## Milkman

I always thought it was drummers or guitarists who are the DB bandits, but having made a transition from player to soundman I'm coming to the conclusion that it's most often....



BASSISTS



I suspect the problem is that bass, being omnidirectional sometimes makes it difficult for the payer to hear himself close to the amp. They turn up and slaughter the mix or at least make it necessary to mix everything else to their level.

When I see guys dragging in Bass amps with multiple cabs and several hundred watts I just cringe.


Just curious how the players feel.


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## hollowbody

I agree 100% with bass being hard to hear on-stage. Most lwo frequency waves are so large that they don't fully develop til they're several feet away from the point of origin, which explains why the bassist can't hear himself, but everyone else is having their innards shaken, not stirred.

Having said that, I'm always the one who's too loud.


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## mrmatt1972

Me! kkjuwsdsre


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## Milkman

hollowbody said:


> I agree 100% with bass being hard to hear on-stage. Most lwo frequency waves are so large that they don't fully develop til they're several feet away from the point of origin, which explains why the bassist can't hear himself, but everyone else is having their innards shaken, not stirred.
> 
> Having said that, I'm always the one who's too loud.



You're right of course. The thing is, bassists don't need to worry abut the really low fequencies. If you have a sound man, you should, in my opinion use your stage amp as a monitor. Let the PA sus provide those really low tones.


More and more I'm having to mute or at least drastically dial back the bass guitar in the FOH mix.


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## bagpipe

Its always been the guitar player in my experience. The other guitar player - not me, obviously! :smile:


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## Guest

I'm forever being told to turn up. I usually just EQ the mids or presence up.

Bassists are the ones I blame when things get loud. Just jammed last week with a guy -- setup in the room with a little combo of some sort and then proceeded to stand with it blowing air around his ankles...and moving the fillings in the mouths of everyone else in the room. We were definitely louder because of the bass.


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## Milkman

I think everyone should have different rigs depending on whether they have a FOH mix with everything running through it or if they're just using a stage mix.

That goes for guitarists too.


There's just no need for a massive rig in a club when the PA is there for that purpose. It doesn't help and in most cases it's decidedly counterproductive.


Honestly, a 1 X 15 combo is perfect unless you're playing the ACC. Running a DI (post EQ) into a PA (assuming the PA has decent quality components and someone behind the board who cares and knows what he or she is doing) will always yield better results than blasting off stage with an SVT or a multi cab rig.


Again JUST my opinion. I'm not picking on bassists, just relating my experiences from the perspective of the audience.


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## jimsz

Usually we've found the loudest player is the one who's had the most martinis.


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## Mooh

One of the singers who demands so much in the monitors and mains. Otherwise generally bass players, as has been suggested. In a couple of previous bands where I played bass, I used a dedicated monitor to fire my signal back at me because it seemed it was always hotter half way back in the hall than on stage. For years I used Yorkville powered monitors daisy-chained from my backline, then later I used just another bass amp and an ABY box.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Peter

jimsz said:


> Usually we've found the loudest player is the one who's had the most martinis.


THIS!!! :smile:


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## james on bass

Milkman said:


> I always thought it was drummers or guitarists who are the DB bandits, but having made a transition from player to soundman I'm coming to the conclusion that it's most often....
> 
> BASSISTS
> 
> I suspect the problem is that bass, being omnidirectional sometimes makes it difficult for the payer to hear himself close to the amp. They turn up and slaughter the mix or at least make it necessary to mix everything else to their level.
> 
> When I see guys dragging in Bass amps with multiple cabs and several hundred watts I just cringe.
> 
> Just curious how the players feel.


I think you're right with that perspective. More often than not, our PA is for vocals and kick drum only. I generally have problems hearing myself, but the sound out on the floor is huge. Last week we set up with my bass rig on the opposite side of the stage from me, and the mix was great. 

I generally bring 1 1x15" cabinet (sometimes the 1x12" on top) and have never had my master volume over 3. More than enough.


My last band though?... definitely, definitely the guitarist!


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## Milkman

I thought about having "Singer" as one of the choices in the poll. From out front though, the monitors seldom cause a problem with the FOH mix. I generally still need to put lots of vocals in the mains to get a balanced mix.


It's most often bass. I think putting the bass rig on the opposite side of the stage as sugested by James, is a great idea. Those frequencies do take a little distance to open up. 

Another great idea is side washing the guitar cabs. I know this can sometimes be a contentious issue with guitarists, but I'll wager most sound men love it.


Interesting poll results so far. Guitarist is way out in front.


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## marcos

*Loudest in band*

This is a good one as my drummer was always telling me to lower the volume,and i have hearing problems in one ear(guess witch one) from being to close to the drummer for 30 years.He also has earing probs.from one ear witch happens to be on the right side witch happens to be the side i played on.You can draw what conclusion you want but both of us old farts are slowly loosing our earing because we both played to loud.There is a lesson here you young kids but i am not sure what it is.LOL.:smilie_flagge17:


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## Spike

I voted guitarists. Most of the volume offenders I've played with have been guitarists.

My standing rule - never turn up louder than an unmiked drum kit. However loud the drummer hits, that's where you should be.

On the loud bass note, Last summer I added a Genz Benz 10 extension cab to my bass rig. It has a little stand that swings out from the front bottom of the cab so you can angle it. I put in on top of my Trace Elliot and point it straight at my head. It was expensive for a single 10, but it's also awesome! It weighs almost nothing and sounds killer. The 15 in the Trace is for the room and the 10 in the GB is for me.


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## Robert1950

Has anyone noticed a correlation between loudness and ego ???


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## prsrick

Yes, they usually want to get noticed, that is why they turn up their volume, e.g a backing rhythm guitar is louder than the lead guitar!


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## Guest

Milkman said:


> Another great idea is side washing the guitar cabs. I know this can sometimes be a contentious issue with guitarists, but I'll wager most sound men love it.


We did that..way back. All cabs were side washed 
and just the banner behind the drums . Also tilt back 
your amp. Helps you really hear what you're playing
and you don't blast away the crowd.
As alluded to earlier; Your ankles don't have ears!



marcos said:


> ...us old farts are slowly loosing our earing because we both played to loud.There is a lesson here you young kids but i am not sure what it is.LOL.:smilie_flagge17:


Good earplugs. Sure, it don' look cool.....
wish I used them back then. I do now.


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## mrmatt1972

Robert1950 said:


> Has anyone noticed a correlation between loudness and ego ???


Maybe, but my problem is that when I sing and play at the same time I tend to strum harder. When i'm just playing rhythm or adding colour to a band I tend to listen to the other players more so my volume goes down. i do like it loud though.


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## Milkman

I honestly don't believe ego plays as much a part is volume wars as we sometimes think.


Everyone wants to hear themselves. It's essential for obvious reasons.

The thing is, very few musicians are open minded enought to try different solutions.

I've seen too many guitarists point their half stacks at their butts and then turn up until they hear themselves. How dumb is that? Guitar cabs are highly directional. Unless you have ears in your asses you should have the cab pointed at your head.


Side washing guitar cabs and angling them up at the players heads makes it easier for the players to hear themselves and WAY easier for the soundman to get a balanced mix. From the player's perspective it works like a charm. 
The singers and drumer will also love it once they try it. I used to aim mine straight across the stage and about a meter behind the vocal mics. When I was singing the cab was pointing behind me. I could still hear it, but it didn't interfere with the monitors. Time for a solo? Take one step back and bam, you're in the sweet spot.


As long as everything's mic'd, I honestly believe this is the best arrangement for both the band and the audience.


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## prsrick

Pardon my ignorance, what is side washing? thx.


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## GuyB

What is : «Side washing guitar cabs» ?


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## Milkman

prsrick said:


> Pardon my ignorance, what is side washing? thx.


Side washing in this context means aiming your guitar amps across the stage and not at the audience. This is only applicable when the amps are mic'd.

What it does is dramatically reduce the amount of guitar blasting off the stage and allows the soundman much greater control to mix properly.


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## Guest

Milk's got it right.

But in the musicians' perspective; it's like jamming/rehearsing.
Your amps are pointing at each other to get your sound tight. Right?!
On stage you have them at the sides of the stage facing each other.
Volumes are set at rehearsal levels (to match the drums). You can follow
each other easily because you hear each other. And as Milkman stated,

let the sound man handle the venue's volume.


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## Budda

From my personal experience in a small town, you're rarely if ever going to get a sound guy who gives a shit about actually making you sound good. They think "its a highschool band, they probably think they're king $hit, and will put all their gear to 10" - which wasnt true.

Just about every show i have played in this town, i get told afterwards "I saw you playing, but i couldnt hear it!" and this would be with my amp on 4 or 5 (less then band practise volume, mind you) - and no one heard anything.

Due to that, my general approach for all future small gigs is "don't worry about it, i'll handle myself" and turn it up enough. havent had shows in a long time, so that's not really on the radar right now.

as for who's usually too loud? It depends on the room we're playing in - sometimes its me, sometimes its the drums.


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## Milkman

Budda said:


> From my personal experience in a small town, you're rarely if ever going to get a sound guy who gives a shit about actually making you sound good. They think "its a highschool band, they probably think they're king $hit, and will put all their gear to 10" - which wasnt true.
> 
> Just about every show i have played in this town, i get told afterwards "I saw you playing, but i couldnt hear it!" and this would be with my amp on 4 or 5 (less then band practise volume, mind you) - and no one heard anything.
> 
> Due to that, my general approach for all future small gigs is "don't worry about it, i'll handle myself" and turn it up enough. havent had shows in a long time, so that's not really on the radar right now.
> 
> as for who's usually too loud? It depends on the room we're playing in - sometimes its me, sometimes its the drums.


That's unfortunate, and I don't doubt that it's true.


I do quite a few multi band shows for one promoter, with some bands from high school and I suppose some from college. I mix them with the same care and attention I give for touring bands.


To tell the truth, most bands are very cooperative. It's actually rare to have a real problem.


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## Budda

I find that musicians are generally co-operative when its about them getting on stage and performing. I would get asked to turn down sometimes, and I'd do it without a 2nd thought. But after hearing "man, i couldnt hear you play!" more times then I'd like to remember, I'm not so sure it's a good idea.

I'd love to have you mix my sets, you sound like the type of soundguy some of us wish we always had.


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## zontar

My experience of who is loudest has usually been the lead guitarist.


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## Milkman

Budda said:


> I find that musicians are generally co-operative when its about them getting on stage and performing. I would get asked to turn down sometimes, and I'd do it without a 2nd thought. But after hearing "man, i couldnt hear you play!" more times then I'd like to remember, I'm not so sure it's a good idea.
> 
> I'd love to have you mix my sets, you sound like the type of soundguy some of us wish we always had.




It's surprising (and a bloody shame) how many bands I work with have tales of woe from their experiences with soundmen. 

Sure makes it easy for me to book dates. I go through a lot of business cards after shows and I tend to have a lot of repeat clients.


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## ne1roc

Milkman said:


> I've seen too many guitarists point their half stacks at their butts and then turn up until they hear themselves. How dumb is that? Guitar cabs are highly directional. Unless you have ears in your asses you should have the cab pointed at your head.


I am looking for a solution to angle my 1/2 stack. How do you do it without fear of the head falling off?


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## Mooh

Milkman said:


> It's surprising (and a bloody shame) how many bands I work with have tales of woe from their experiences with soundmen.
> 
> Sure makes it easy for me to book dates. I go through a lot of business cards after shows and I tend to have a lot of repeat clients.


Word of mouth is the best advertising, ain't it!

There's a folk festival I frequent which has stellar main stage sound and crew but some of the side stage sound is not really professionally done. Luckily, it's an acoustic guitar gig I've played several times so at least I can figure out what to tell the sound folks, even if they take a while to work it out. 

There's another thread topic: Soundperson language.

Peace, Mooh.


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## lbrown1

in my experience, the loudest has been the guitarist with the worst sounding amp........maybe they're not the loudest after all - maybe it's just the screechy tinny tone that makes it stand out (in a bad way) more.......I have been guilty of this offense in the past.


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## dwagar

without someone to balance your sound, and not just at the start of the night, this is a problem. (unless you're pumping everything through a big PA, then you can just blame the sound man).

very often I'm told, either at the end of a set, or even the end of the night, that they couldn't hear my guitar very well. Gee, didn't anyone think to mention that DURING the set?

problem of course, is your amp is directly behind you, that's the loudest thing you're going to hear. Especially if you're stretched out across a stage.

you need someone to tell you to turn up or down as needed.


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## Milkman

ne1roc said:


> I am looking for a solution to angle my 1/2 stack. How do you do it without fear of the head falling off?


Either put the cab on a chair or stand (doesn't need to be tilted) or don't put the head on the cab. 


Ashtrays used to be the tool of choice for wedging under the front of cabs, but alas, no ashtrays in bars anymore.


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## Milkman

dwagar said:


> without someone to balance your sound, and not just at the start of the night, this is a problem. (unless you're pumping everything through a big PA, then you can just blame the sound man).
> 
> very often I'm told, either at the end of a set, or even the end of the night, that they couldn't hear my guitar very well. Gee, didn't anyone think to mention that DURING the set?
> 
> problem of course, is your amp is directly behind you, that's the loudest thing you're going to hear. Especially if you're stretched out across a stage.
> 
> you need someone to tell you to turn up or down as needed.



The problem with mixing from the stage is that adjustments are always AFTER the fact.

With a guy out front the adjustments are made real time and the impact can be assessd real time. There's just no other way to fly IMO and I should stress that this is NOT only applicable to big set ups. Even in clubs seating 100 ~ 200 the benefits of a good soundman are huge. You can still put everything through the mains. You just have to use more discretion with stage volume.

The simple reality is that you have no idea what the sound is like out front when you're standing on stage.


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## david henman

...i have a tendency to blame the drummer but the truth is, its usually my guitar amp that is too loud.

that's because i am relying less on my pedals and more on my amp for tone, these days.

its a 15-watt traynor combo, but can get pretty loud, nonetheless.

that said, we have more or less written off the idea of playing bars in the future, so its no longer really an issue.

-dh


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## Milkman

david henman said:


> ...i have a tendency to blame the drummer but the truth is, its usually my guitar amp that is too loud.
> 
> that's because i am relying less on my pedals and more on my amp for tone, these days.
> 
> its a 15-watt traynor combo, but can get pretty loud, nonetheless.
> 
> that said, we have more or less written off the idea of playing bars in the future, so its no longer really an issue.
> 
> -dh


It's surprising how much punch you can get from 15 watts. 


Playing bigger shows? If so, that's good news.


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## Guest

Everyone else, but me


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## faracaster

In my band it's the B3 player. Holy Moly is he LOUD !!!!!!


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## Robert1950

faracaster said:


> In my band it's the B3 player. Holy Moly is he LOUD !!!!!!


Yeah, but there's nothing like the sound of B3 that you can feel with your entire body.


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## faracaster

Robert1950 said:


> Yeah, but there's nothing like the sound of B3 that you can feel with your entire body.


Oh I totally agree. I love the sound of B3. And Craig (the organist) is a wonderful player. It is just too loud for the bass player to hear his vocal monitor. then the monitors get loud, then I turn up my guitar, then the drummer hits harder etc etc and so on and so on......


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## guitarsmark

I find that normally my drummer is the loudest - he wears earplugs and just rips on his set... the bassist and I are normally the ones getting told to turn up... my vocalist also plays an acoustic guitar for rhythym, and oftentimes, that is really loud as well.


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## Milkman

guitarsmark said:


> I find that normally my drummer is the loudest - he wears earplugs and just rips on his set... the bassist and I are normally the ones getting told to turn up... my vocalist also plays an acoustic guitar for rhythym, and oftentimes, that is really loud as well.




This raises an interesting point. I realize that protecting your hearing is important (I'm a sound man).

However, in my experience, the guys wearing hearing protection tend to be the problem when it comes to volume. 

I worked with a drummer who wore big full coverage cans when he played, and although he was a great player, he was consistantly too loud.


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## Milkman

faracaster said:


> Oh I totally agree. I love the sound of B3. And Craig (the organist) is a wonderful player. It is just too loud for the bass player to hear his vocal monitor. then the monitors get loud, then I turn up my guitar, then the drummer hits harder etc etc and so on and so on......


I played with a guy who used a Leslie on stage. Nothing comes close to the sound of the real thng in spite of many assertions to the contrary.

Putting the Leslie up on a stand near the players head helps a lot with volume. Also, covering the louvers on the sides (assuming you're mic'ing the unit) reduces the amount of ambient sound the Leslie produces.


Still, it's well worth it to have one in my opinion.


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## shoretyus

faracaster said:


> Oh I totally agree. I love the sound of B3. And Craig (the organist) is a wonderful player. It is just too loud for the bass player to hear his vocal monitor. then the monitors get loud, then I turn up my guitar, then the drummer hits harder etc etc and so on and so on......


Hmmm... wonder how he's doing that. There is oodles of posts on the net on the Leslie falls short on volume levels. The latest Leslie is actually a high powered unit. 

At my little jam the Leslie is the instrument that has to be miked so the bass player _can_ hear it


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## Milkman

shoretyus said:


> Hmmm... wonder how he's doing that. There is oodles of posts on the net on the Leslie falls short on volume levels. The latest Leslie is actually a high powered unit.
> 
> At my little jam the Leslie is the instrument that has to be miked so the bass player _can_ hear it


Wow, really?


We used to have to put ours in the corner with the louvers taped and the ports facing the wall. Ours was pretty loud.


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## shoretyus

Milkman said:


> Wow, really?
> 
> 
> We used to have to put ours in the corner with the louvers taped and the ports facing the wall. Ours was pretty loud.


Yeah. Same for two Leslies. I had a 100 watt solid state and it wasn't loud enough and we had to mike it so I opted for a tube one seeing how we had to mike it anyway. 

They do have a volume control to turn them down.


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## Steadfastly

ne1roc said:


> I am looking for a solution to angle my 1/2 stack. How do you do it without fear of the head falling off?


Velcro strips?


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## Milkman

shoretyus said:


> Yeah. Same for two Leslies. I had a 100 watt solid state and it wasn't loud enough and we had to mike it so I opted for a tube one seeing how we had to mike it anyway.
> 
> They do have a volume control to turn them down.


Of course, but the sound we wanted was with the power amp section driven hard and for that the volume needs to be up.


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## Lemmy Hangslong

With out a doubt it's our drummer. Once we get warmed up and things get going good he hits harder. 

Other than that it's the rythm guitarist.

I play rythm and lead guitar and I try to keep it reasonable and under regular circumstances I rarely fiddle with my volume... unless I'm forced to... which has been happening quite a bit in the past few weeks.

We side wash our cabs all the time in rehearsals and live. We are also experimenting with using full stacks and having the speakers crisscrossed where I'm in the top cab of my stack and the rythm player is in the bottom cab and I'm in the bottom of the rythm players stack while he is in the top cab of his stack.

The other little trick I use is when I turn the top cab off axis a little to the bottom cab. 

Any other tips for better rehearsal and onstage sound?


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## Lemmy Hangslong

After last weeks show it's definetly me hwopv


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## warse22

faracaster said:


> In my band it's the B3 player. Holy Moly is he LOUD !!!!!!


The two votes for keyboard initially made no sense...but you are absolutely right. Being a keyboardist as well, I rarely get to play a real B3 but when I do, it's almost always off stage or isolated somehow. They sound amazing, but they are killer on the ears!

Usually though, lead guitar.


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## PaulS

Milkman said:


> Side washing in this context means aiming your guitar amps across the stage and not at the audience. This is only applicable when the amps are mic'd.
> 
> What it does is dramatically reduce the amount of guitar blasting off the stage and allows the soundman much greater control to mix properly.


Recently tried this type of setup and it was great, better stage sound and control of the volume. Just need a trusted sound man to take care of the front.


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## Eager Beaver

My rhythm guitarist is definitely the worst. He tries to drown me out even when I'm playing solos. Needless to say, we've had more than a couple yelling matches.


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## faracaster

warse22 said:


> The two votes for keyboard initially made no sense...but you are absolutely right. Being a keyboardist as well, I rarely get to play a real B3 but when I do, it's almost always off stage or isolated somehow. They sound amazing, but they are killer on the ears!
> 
> Usually though, lead guitar.


Yes I totally agree that it is usually the lead guitarists (me hwopv) that are loud. At least that's what I'm told. Funny, never seems too loud to me.
But it is a fact that our B3 player is LOUD !!!!! 
We just moved into a smaller rehearsal room last week and the B3 player was warning us all that we would all have to turn down and maybe use smaller amps. However, he was SOOOOOO loud that after four tunes I just had to tell him he has to turn down. Then the whole band was on him for the rest of the night. It was unbelievable how loud his Leslie was.


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## JeS89

Definitely the guitarist (me)


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## Milkman

I guess having made a transition to FOH sound man a couple of years ago I have a different perspective than many players.


Out front it's almost always the bassist (assuming he has enough money to buy the rediculously overpowered bass rig that many bassists tend to favour).

Guitarists seem to be (finally) understanding that a 1 X 12 combo pointed at your head is more than adequate for anything short of an arena. Even then, with a decent monitor rig they can still do the job.


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## joey_capps

In my band, it's definitely the bassist who set the volume levels. I always start with by adjusting all my levels on my amp and pedals to a set points (Volume at 4, Gain 6, etc.) and then adjust after each song. After the first song, I am told willy-nilly to turn up or down--even though I start out at the exact same place (I have notes). If the bass sets up too loud, I get told to turn down. Nobody ever says anything to him. I often end up not even being able to hear myself, but still being accused of being too loud.

It was the same when we had a keyboard player, though not with volume. In one song, there was a switch from D major chord to a D minor that she constantly missed, and everyone would point out that I missed it. In another song, she was constantly playing the wrong chord progression, and guess who got blamed. Our singer would ask me to play it alone, and it would sound right. We'd play it as a band, and it was horrible. And they would say, Joe you're not playing it properly. They finally figured out it was me once she left.

To be the new guy . . .


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## elindso

Robert1950 said:


> Has anyone noticed a correlation between loudness and ego ???


Big time.

I leave when that starts to happen, it's no fun.


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## thehoj

I always end up accusing the bassist or lead guitarist of being too loud... and then I step further away from my amp and realize I (rhythm guitar) need to turn it down a little bit .


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## kellythebastard

WHAT???? Can't hear you over my amp!kkjuw


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## Bobby

usually i am not loud enough,probably because of my own ego,in a strange way.

when im playing,i have the habit of listening to myself,more then the others. i mean,of course i want what i play to fit the songs,and the harmony in general but you know what i mean. so i think i tend to hear myself louder then others hear the band as a whole. often people say i should turn up,rather then down. i suppose thats a compliment in a sense.

but yeah,dont tell anyone. i come off looking and sounding modest,but its really cause my playing sounds 10x louder in my ears. im off imagining im M. Schenker in the mid eighties,when we both had all our hair, and im playing in front of 10 000 screaming fans. when in reality,its just a rehearsal in the back of an old abandoned factory.

Bobby


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## Robert Bogdan

The loudest?

Almost always the greenest. And I'm not talkin about Kermit.


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## Robert1950

How about the one with the biggest ego?


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## JHarasym

The deafest. Usually me.


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## Milkman

A lot of times, it's the guy wearing hearing protection. Doesn't sound loud to him at all.


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## screamingdaisy

Milkman said:


> I honestly don't believe ego plays as much a part is volume wars as we sometimes think.
> 
> 
> Everyone wants to hear themselves. It's essential for obvious reasons.
> 
> The thing is, very few musicians are open minded enought to try different solutions.
> 
> I've seen too many guitarists point their half stacks at their butts and then turn up until they hear themselves. How dumb is that? Guitar cabs are highly directional. Unless you have ears in your asses you should have the cab pointed at your head.


I always thought it was funny that the 'solution' to guitarists who are too loud is to cut down to a 1x12 when the better choice would be to scale up to a full stack.

I personally feel that many guitarists are simply looking for a thick sound, and they compensate for thin tone by turning the volume up louder than it should be. Someone alluded to this earlier when he stated that the loudest dudes were the ones with the worst sounding amps.... I sense a connection there. Anyway, this problem is further exacerbated when using cabs that blast the sound forward, usually straight into the guitarists knees/ankles, which adds on a secondary problem of guitarists who dial in too much top end in order to compensate for their off axis listening position.

A fullstack kills two birds with one stone. It provides a fuller sound than a 1x12 will ever be capable of, which reduces the guitarists need to crank the volume to thicken his sound up. It also provides two speakers at head level, so the guitarist can clearly hear his sound on axis, which has the knock on effect of causing him to turn the treble down.


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## keeperofthegood

Recently, at Burlington Rib Fest, what I noted was the high end tone that over rode any instrument sound per say. 50 feet from the stage and I felt like I had a dentists drill going off in my head.


So, I would have to say the loudest member in the band is the guy doing the sound mix.


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## Milkman

screamingdaisy said:


> I always thought it was funny that the 'solution' to guitarists who are too loud is to cut down to a 1x12 when the better choice would be to scale up to a full stack.
> 
> I personally feel that many guitarists are simply looking for a thick sound, and they compensate for thin tone by turning the volume up louder than it should be. Someone alluded to this earlier when he stated that the loudest dudes were the ones with the worst sounding amps.... I sense a connection there. Anyway, this problem is further exacerbated when using cabs that blast the sound forward, usually straight into the guitarists knees/ankles, which adds on a secondary problem of guitarists who dial in too much top end in order to compensate for their off axis listening position.
> 
> A fullstack kills two birds with one stone. It provides a fuller sound than a 1x12 will ever be capable of, which reduces the guitarists need to crank the volume to thicken his sound up. It also provides two speakers at head level, so the guitarist can clearly hear his sound on axis, which has the knock on effect of causing him to turn the treble down.



A full stack does other things, it moves a lot more air and because guitar frequencies are SO directional, the player really only hears one or two speakers out of the 8 pointing at the audience.

Trust me, a full stack in a club is NOT a solution to a guitarist who tends to be loud. All it does, is ensure that the channel will end up muted on the board.


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## screamingdaisy

Milkman said:


> A full stack does other things, it moves a lot more air and because guitar frequencies are SO directional, the player really only hears one or two speakers out of the 8 pointing at the audience.
> 
> Trust me, a full stack in a club is NOT a solution to a guitarist who tends to be loud. All it does, is ensure that the channel will end up muted on the board.


Not if the soundman knows what he's doing.


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## Milkman

screamingdaisy said:


> Not if the soundman knows what he's doing.



Well, let me just fill you in a bit. 

If you're behind the desk and a guitarist is using a ful 8 X 12 stack and that's the loudest sound coming off the stage, you have two choices.

1. Mute his channel and try to bring everything else up to his level which is probably too loud for the house

2. don't mute his channel and everything will definitely be too loud for the house.

No sound man in the universe can SUBTRACT volume from a stage mix.


Using the rationalization that using a full stack puts two of the speakers at head level is pretty whacky. I agree that the speakers should be pointed at the players head, but using six other speakers which are NOT pointed at his head as a stand?

Trust me (or don't). The bands who sound good ALWAYS have a handle on stage volume, and those guys don't use stacks in clubs.


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## screamingdaisy

Milkman said:


> The bands who sound good ALWAYS have a handle on stage volume


That sums up my point.


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