# How do certain dealers reputations manage to bounce back from one shady deal after another?



## broke snob (Apr 18, 2020)

There are some dealers in Toronto with whom I've had the misfortune of dealing with over the years who have garnered quite a bad reputation on the vintage scene. What I don't get is how or why their reputations manage to bounce back, one shady deal after another, as if nothing ever happened. And I'm not talking about something as trivial as marketing and selling an old Harmony as 100% original, for it to only have repro knobs and tuners; I'm talking about much more significant things, such as not disclosing that a golden-era Fender or Gibson worth tens of thousands (or more) has been refinished, had major structural repair work done, replaced electronics, and so on. But it gets worse still... some of these dealers/"vintage experts" who've been in the game for decades have _knowingly_ tried to pass of *replica* guitars as the real deal! And word got out about it, and again, they somehow bounced back to normal soon after- perhaps a week or two of some forum bashing occurred, but beyond that, back to business soon after. And funny enough, on the last 2-3 occasions one particular well-known Toronto dealer tried to pass of some Bursts as the real deal, they weren't even just remotely realistic/authentic. It's like they didn't even want to bother trying anymore, but were just hoping some uneducated dodo with deep pockets would come along. But the thing is, these days, what with the internet and all, you can have the cold hard facts within minutes. Post something on LPF or any of the other forums, and a worldwide viewership (including some guys who _really_ know their stuff) will dissect it and offer up neutral/honest insights within minutes. Anybody with 10-15 minutes googling could have deduced these were (poorly done) replicas they were selling, yet the proprietors of this beloved Toronto shop, who you'd think would have at least some understanding of the stuff they're dealing with after 20+ years on the scene, somehow failed to notice the countless red flags on these instruments they were trying to pass off as legit. It's easy and convenient to blame it on the consignee, but I've an inkling the consignee and the proprietors of the shop may very well be one and the same, because for the same thing to happen more than once in a single year is beyond coincidence. You're dealing with hundreds of thousands of dollars: know your shit cold, or failing that, fork up the $50 or whatever it costs to at least have Gruhn do an online appraisal. It's also awful easy and convenient to fall back on the excuse of "we couldn't possibly know the entire history of the guitar" when an instrument you marketed and sold as 100% original is found to be something less than that. And that's the whole thing with this stuff... these guitars we now covet to the moon were just old junk for the longest time... nobody would have thought to keep meticulous records of every little repair/mod/etc. over the decades. While there are some instruments with rock solid provenance, the vast majority have had multi-decade gaps unaccounted for. And so I can forgive if a guitar I was sold as "100% original" is discovered to have non-original tuners, a changed switch tip, different knobs... but any of the more material stuff such as finish, neck breaks, etc. should always be disclosed, and you shouldn't be calling yourself a vintage expert/dealer if you're unable to tell. Of course the buyer should do all their due diligence before committing to any such purchase, but you'd think these shops that've been around for so many years, who are meant to specialize in vintage gear, would practice some honesty- guess not, though. For someone like myself who wants to purchase clean collector grade specimens of vintage instruments, these experiences have been enough to cause me to give up on vintage altogether- plenty of other places for me to sink my dollars into it. Just was curious how it's possible that these scumbag dealers are always able to come back unscathed after such material fuckups.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

How can you tell they’re unscathed? There’s no real way to tell how the business was affected as an outsider.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

It still always comes down to 'buyer beware', 'sucker born every minute', 'too good to be true', blah, blah, woof, woof.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Unlike elephants, People have short memories.


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

We need links to the deals in question. One shop was hunting down Posters to remove/ alter their old posts to erase history of impropriety. With threats of lawyers.


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## hedzup (Apr 23, 2009)

Who in Toronto has been selling Bursts ?


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## Fred Gifford (Sep 2, 2019)

JBFairthorne said:


> How can you tell they’re unscathed? There’s no real way to tell how the business was affected as an outsider.


yep, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time ... word gets out ..


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## broke snob (Apr 18, 2020)

hedzup said:


> Who in Toronto has been selling Bursts ?


My post isn't necessarily reflective of what's on the market right this moment (or even recently). 
But if you do some digging, you'll quite easily find out who.


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## broke snob (Apr 18, 2020)

JBFairthorne said:


> How can you tell they’re unscathed? There’s no real way to tell how the business was affected as an outsider.


I obviously don't have any insight into their books, however with the dealer who I consider to be the biggest offender, most everything they post on their social media page is swooped up within hours or days- that ought to count for something.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

First guess: Tundra
second guess, LA Music


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## GeorgeMich (Jun 6, 2013)

What’s the point of this thread If you don’t name the dealer? Not everyone is from the GTA and will know who you are alluding to, but would like to know for educational purposes.


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## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

Here's a famous example in the UK.
I came close to pulling the trigger on one of their guitars , someone gave me the heads up.
I have corresponded with Justin on numerous occasions, unusually fast response times and over the top courteous sent up some initial red flags.


http://www.davidjpym.com/page459.html


Operating now under... 




__





London Vintage Guitars


London Vintage Guitars




www.denmarkstreetonline.co.uk




Lots of stuff on Reverb.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Fred Gifford said:


> yep, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time ... word gets out ..


Now you see the light.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Guncho said:


> Now you see the light.


You stand up for your rights.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

Anyone have a link to any of the threads being referred to by the op? Knowing who the shady fellas are would be helpful.


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

@broke snob should have the intel.


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## King Loudness (May 3, 2010)

__





The Les Paul Forum


Forum software by XenForo



www.lespaulforum.com





Capsule had a fake a few years back, but I think they made it right with the person who bought it. I don't think they're known as a bad dealer though. When I think bad dealer and Toronto, Tundra seems to be the one that pops up most. FWIW, seeing something like a genuine Burst with a price that's too good to be true, it almost certainly is. There's more fake Bursts and korina guitars out there than ever and even "knowing" collectors all over the world get burned, sometimes more than once. Caveat emptor...

W.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Diablo said:


> First guess: Tundra
> second guess, LA Music


What's the deal with L.A. Music? I dealt with them a couple months ago and really couldn't have been happier.


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## sakana (Oct 14, 2016)

How? ask the Donald how he does it


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

This reminded me of this TVO documentary. "There are no Fakes" ....not about guitars but art. If you want to see how bad it can get when people keep getting away with making and selling fakes, watch this.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

sakana said:


> How? ask the Donald how he does it


.......or JT.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

tomee2 said:


> This reminded me of this TVO documentary. "There are no Fakes" ....not about guitars but art. If you want to see how bad it can get when people keep getting away with making and selling fakes, watch this.


I'll have to check that out.
reminds me of the saying classic car guys have about certain rare, limited edition models "...only 197 were made...and all 2000 of them are still around today!"


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Okay Player said:


> What's the deal with L.A. Music? I dealt with them a couple months ago and really couldn't have been happier.


I've never dealt with LA music but I've read enough bad reviews that I'd likely stay clear. There are too many dealers with good reps to take a chance on a dealer with a bad rep. I had read lots of bad reviews on Tundra as well but I'd go in to their store to look at things I was interested in. Until I had a bad experience. I was interested in looking at a 64 deluxe custom. The sales guy in the Hamilton store offered to bring one in from Whitby for me to have a look at. I was debating between the 64 CDR and a Tone King Sky King of which I know Tundra could not get. I did try the 64 CDR but in the end went with the Tone King Sky King which I ordered from Electric Mojo guitars. 
I went to the store after I bought the Tone King to give a courteous visit to let them know I decided on the Tone King. The sales guy flipped his gasket and completely lost it on me. The guy was going ape shit screaming about how I dare not buy the Tone King from them. I told him he wasn't a Tone King dealer and couldn't get it. He screamed they could get anything. 
If I honestly thought he could get it I'd have ordered from him. I figure they would have told me they could get it to get my money and then I'd be waiting or an amp that would never come. Thats the MO in most reviews I read about them. 
I honestly thought I was going to have to fight my way out of there.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

guitarman2 said:


> I've never dealt with LA music but I've read enough bad reviews that I'd likely stay clear. There are too many dealers with good reps to take a chance on a dealer with a bad rep. I had read lots of bad reviews on Tundra as well but I'd go in to their store to look at things I was interested in. Until I had a bad experience. I was interested in looking at a 64 deluxe custom. The sales guy in the Hamilton store offered to bring one in from Whitby for me to have a look at. I was debating between the 64 CDR and a Tone King Sky King of which I know Tundra could not get. I did try the 64 CDR but in the end went with the Tone King Sky King which I ordered from Electric Mojo guitars.
> I went to the store after I bought the Tone King to give a courteous visit to let them know I decided on the Tone King. The sales guy flipped his gasket and completely lost it on me. The guy was going ape shit screaming about how I dare not buy the Tone King from them. I told him he wasn't a Tone King dealer and couldn't get it. He screamed they could get anything.
> If I honestly thought he could get it I'd have ordered from him. I figure they would have told me they could get it to get my money and then I'd be waiting or an amp that would never come. Thats the MO in most reviews I read about them.
> I honestly thought I was going to have to fight my way out of there.


Not to suggest that bad customer service isn't notable, but the OP mentions outright counterfeiting. That's a very different animal than rude customer service or a poorly kept up inventory


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Okay Player said:


> Not to suggest that bad customer service isn't notable, but the OP mentions outright counterfeiting. That's a very different animal than rude customer service or a poorly kept up inventory



I doubt Tundra or LA music would knowingly sell an illegal counterfeit guitar.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

guitarman2 said:


> I doubt Tundra or LA music would knowingly sell an illegal counterfeit guitar.


I didn't think so either, that was more my curiosity.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

Tundra lies all the time. They've offered trades (completely unsolicited) on gear that was entirely misrepresented when first presented. They're incredibly sketchy, so much so that I convinced kijiji to _delete_ a "review" they left for me as it was absolutely baseless...and kijiji almost never does that. I would not put anything past them frankly.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Diablo said:


> I'll have to check that out.
> reminds me of the saying classic car guys have about certain rare, limited edition models "...only 197 were made...and all 2000 of them are still around today!"


Yes! I forgot to add, it's a 100% Canadian story. The fakes are Morriseau paintings. 
It's a crazy story.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

tomee2 said:


> Yes! I forgot to add, it's a 100% Canadian story. The fakes are Morriseau paintings.
> It's a crazy story.


And it's on TVO right now!


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

why? because some business owners have stated they don't give a flying #$$%&^ what a bunch of has been guitar pickers have to say on a internet forum.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Distortion said:


> why? because some business owners have stated they don't give a flying #$$%&^ what a bunch of has been guitar pickers have to say on a internet forum.


ya, I also think these stores dont necessary rely on savvy musicians for all their business...I think they get lot of their business from when a dad takes his 10 yr old to the local store so they can tell them what to buy


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Diablo said:


> ya, I also think these stores dont necessary rely on savvy musicians for all their business...I think they get lot of their business from when a dad takes his 10 yr old to the local store so they can tell them what to buy



I've had an awful lot of people in work and personal life that have come to me over the last few decades for advice on what good guitar to buy for their child and none of them were willing to spend more than $100 - $150 on a guitar. 
I also remember back about 1978 a local 10 year old phenom bluegrass picker that could pick like no tomorrow. His dad bought him a Martin D-28. But thats a one in a million scenario. Having said that there is a lot of money to be made on $200 guitars when you can move large volumes of them.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)




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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> I doubt Tundra or LA music would knowingly sell an illegal counterfeit guitar.





Okay Player said:


> I didn't think so either, that was more my curiosity.


I was the one that mentioned both stores...i didnt say that they sold counterfeit guitars, just that they come to mind as businesses with....ahem...reputations....that have managed to survive. But in truth, when their reputation is what it is, nothing would surprise me, so I would suspect them more than others when an ambiguous post comes up.
Now would it surprise me if they "unknowingly" sold a counterfeit and then refused to accept the responsibility? No.
Part of the reason is, at one point, at least one of those stores was selling guitars that they were not an authorized dealer for....so, that makes one wonder where they are getting that stock from and how trustworthy it is.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

The only local case of a replica being sold as an original was the '60 Les Paul at Capsule a couple years ago. I didn't get the impression that there was any malice involved, but definitely didn't look good for Capsule.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

Diablo said:


> ...at least one of those stores was selling guitars that they were not an authorized dealer for....so, that makes one wonder where they are getting that stock from and how trustworthy it is.


If you search "Fender Custom Shop" on the Tundra site it returns 4888 items. AFAIK, they're not an authorized Fender dealer but, even if they were, there's no F'n way they'd have _anything_ near that number in stock so it's a BS enterprise to begin with.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

StevieMac said:


> If you search "Fender Custom Shop" on the Tundra site it returns 4888 items. AFAIK, they're not an authorized Fender dealer but, even if they were, there's no F'n way they'd have _anything_ near that number in stock so it's a BS enterprise to begin with.



Well this is how they get the bad reputation. Someone orders from their site and 6 months later no guitar because they never had it in stock. Getting your money back becomes a very difficult endeavor. This is the most common complaint I hear about them.


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## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

Tundra lists guitars they don't have and duke their customers into buying them. Some of the unlucky people end up chasing them for their money back for over a year, and some never receive a refund. They are absolute sketch bags and I'm really happy to only have come as close as "adding to cart" with them.


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## faracaster (Mar 9, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> I doubt Tundra or LA music would knowingly sell an illegal counterfeit guitar.


hmmmmm....I can say with experience that one of those two mentioned stores have passed off pieces that were not what they claimed. 



Scottone said:


> The only local case of a replica being sold as an original was the '60 Les Paul at Capsule a couple years ago. I didn't get the impression that there was any malice involved, but definitely didn't look good for Capsule.


That's a bit of a long story there. Lets just say that the Brothers, the owner of said Les Paul and a couple of experts were fooled by this "burst". The owner went back to the store he got it from years before and was compensated for this exposure. 
Def not any malice there.
The full story made Capsule look pretty good in getting to the bottom of this forgery.
The replica ended up selling through Capsule for around 20k IIRC. Not shabby.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

faracaster said:


> That's a bit of a long story there. Lets just say that the Brothers, the owner of said Les Paul and a couple of experts were fooled by this "burst". The owner went back to the store he got it from years before and was compensated for this exposure.
> Def not any malice there.
> The full story made Capsule look pretty good in getting to the bottom of this forgery.
> The replica ended up selling through Capsule for around 20k IIRC. Not shabby.


Good to hear that it worked out in the end. I haven't had any dealings with Capsule lately, but I bought and sold a few things there when they were on Queen St W and they were always great to deal with.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Capsule has been good to me. Mailed me a new bridge when my tech discovered the original was defective upon first setup. Mark was always quick to answer any questions as well.


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## Fred Gifford (Sep 2, 2019)

guitarman2 said:


> I doubt Tundra or LA music would knowingly sell an illegal counterfeit guitar.


my experience will Tundra has been off the charts SCAM ... run away as fast as you can ... the only thing suspect I've seen from L.A. music is deceptive advertising/pricing


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## Squawk (Jun 21, 2018)

Diablo said:


> First guess: Tundra
> second guess, LA Music


Tundra is the worst fvcking excuse for a seller on Reverb...one look at their feedback will tell you that. I mean you have to work pretty damn hard to get one NF on Reverb, never mind a steady stream of it. It takes a real douche-kebob to achieve that level of fail...


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## TBayLefty (Jul 21, 2020)

StevieMac said:


> If you search "Fender Custom Shop" on the Tundra site it returns 4888 items. AFAIK, they're not an authorized Fender dealer but, even if they were, there's no F'n way they'd have _anything_ near that number in stock so it's a BS enterprise to begin with.


 Yep something is sketchy there. They have 50 left handed Fenders for sale. I doubt there's that many new ones in stores in the entire country.


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## Tim Plains (Apr 14, 2009)

This question (OP) is really no different than shady car dealerships and they manage to stay a float.


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## Rstlau007 (Jan 23, 2021)

guitarman2 said:


> Well this is how they get the bad reputation. Someone orders from their site and 6 months later no guitar because they never had it in stock. Getting your money back becomes a very difficult endeavor. This is the most common complaint I hear about them.


Yes and I am another sad customers who had a replica of a fender and was able to under the coat to see the scratches under the light of the sun add even a crack


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

I bought a guitar from LA Music over the summer. Got a great deal and the transaction went really smoothly I'm always a little confused by all the complaints.


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## Rstlau007 (Jan 23, 2021)

Okay Player said:


> I bought a guitar from LA Music over the summer. Got a great deal and the transaction went really smoothly I'm always a little confused by all the complaints.


Yes you are right me too I bought a Guild very good service


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## Rstlau007 (Jan 23, 2021)

Rstlau007 said:


> Yes you are right me too I bought a Guild very good service


LA music is a good place


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Okay Player said:


> I bought a guitar from LA Music over the summer. Got a great deal and the transaction went really smoothly I'm always a little confused by all the complaints.


I went there to buy a Gibson once. Got treated like complete shit. I just walked out and took my 2K purchase somewhere else. 
This was a few years ago but I doubt I'll ever set foot in that place ever again. The Guitar Shop which is practically right across the street was 1000 times better of an experience.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

TDeneka said:


> I went there to buy a Gibson once. Got treated like complete shit. I just walked out and took my 2K purchase somewhere else.
> This was a few years ago but I doubt I'll ever set foot in that place ever again. The Guitar Shop which is practically right across the street was 1000 times better of an experience.


I admittedly have heard their brick and mortar store is an absolute shit show.


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