# Guitar Cables - Yes Again



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I know we had a good thread going a year or so ago. Can't seem to find it through the search function. But maybe it's time to refresh and get some new ops from the members. I am still using a few Monster cables I have had for several years. I don't like them very much and have been too lazy to get out and get some new cables. So what is out there and what are some opinions. 

I find the Monster Cables, at least the sets I have are very weak in the jack inputs. i have had to re-solder them at least three times, always coming apart. I would like some pretty durable cables that will last a lifetime and not cost a bundle. How's that for wanting it all?


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## Guest (May 11, 2009)

Neutrik ends. On any wire you like. Great strain relief. I'd even just reuse your Monster cable. It's already paid for.

I'm a wire-is-wire guy.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

iaresee said:


> Neutrik ends. On any wire you like. Great strain relief. I'd even just reuse your Monster cable. It's already paid for.
> 
> I'm a wire-is-wire guy.


Very interesting.


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## kw_guitarguy (Apr 29, 2008)

I am also a wire-is-wire kind of guy... in one of my other hobbies (home theatre) I am constantly telling people that the $300 Monster cable from FS is not worth it! 

Personally, I like Planet Waves cables, I like the build quality and the ends. For my effects gear, I bought their solderless pedal board kit and love it!!!

~Andrew


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

iaresee said:


> Neutrik ends. On any wire you like. Great strain relief. I'd even just reuse your Monster cable. It's already paid for.
> 
> I'm a wire-is-wire guy.


I'm from the same school. 

Neutrik plugs (always) and any decent cable.

Dave


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## Rumble_b (Feb 14, 2006)

I've been using mostly Yorkville cables for years now. Pretty cheap and I've only ever had to fix one. I also have a Rapco thats pretty old, no issues with it either. If I need to get more I might try another Rapco.


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## jimsz (Apr 17, 2009)

I just make and maintain them myself. A spool of durable 20 gauge instrument cable, some quality plugs and a solder gun. Cables require some maintenance. They get yanked, bent and stepped on constantly. So much easier to diy.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

jimsz said:


> ....... durable 20 gauge instrument cable, .........some quality plugs .......


Which brand(s) of cable and plugs have you found to be the best in your experience?

Just curious....especially about the cable.

Dave


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

CBC Marketplace did a story on Monster Cable for HDMI cords. Basically, there was no difference between the $250 Monster Cable and the $12 generic cable. Here's the episode:
http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/packing_the_deal/

I saw another show where they took a guy up the CN Tower, which is pretty much the communications centre of Ontario. They made a point of showing there is not one gold connector in the huge room where all the equipment is. There is not a measureable difference in the resistance beween a "normal" jack and one coated in a few microns of gold. They can just charge a whole bunch more for it.


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## montreal (Mar 25, 2008)

*cables....save your money...please...*

a few years ago, i lost my shit over an article in vintage guitar comparing various hi end guitar cables. my basic problem was that they did not reference these cables to a standard....a belden cable with switchcraft ends, because that is the most common, mid range cable there is and every music store has something equivalent to that. i wrote a letter to the editor that was not published....hard to compete against those advertising dollars. there is that psychological belief that the monster cable sounds better because it costs more, but it doesn't. i respect gordie johnson's belief that cheap curly cords sound best (i've always noticed that page,hendrix,walsh, townshend,ronson,gallagher,king,guy,etc seem to prefer these as well).
if your cable passes signal, it's good.........sorry i lost my stream of thought...
ps...gold is okay for connectors, but pure nickel plated copper is the absolute best conductor of any AC signal......
american switchcraft connectors always give a tighter fit because they are measures in imperial...neutrik are measured in metric.........
prs guitars use to have a sweet switch which simulated the sound of your guitar running through 100' of cheap guitar cable...funny that....
do not spend more than $20.00 on a twenty foot cable because no one will notice!!!!...it's true!!!!!!!


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## jimsz (Apr 17, 2009)

greco said:


> Which brand(s) of cable and plugs have you found to be the best in your experience?
> 
> Just curious....especially about the cable.
> 
> Dave


CBI cable, rugged and inexpensive. A 250 foot spool is about $70, used mostly for cords running on the floor. For cables that connect mixer, eq's, amp, etc. I use Mogami.

Switchcraft connectors. But, I like those Neutrik you linked above. Nice.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

I've been using Monster cables for the last 2 years. I'm one of those guys that justs stands there on stage but for some reason my cable gets all twisted and coiled around my leg???? Because of this phenomenon my cables go bad in the middle of the cable and makes crackly noises. I had a Planet Waves cable that lasted me a month. I still have my original Monster cable and changed any of my board out and loop cables to Monster last year. So, while Monster cables seem over priced, that one original cable has lasted me through 2 years of gigging and practicing without any issues, so I believe its worth it. I've never had a guitar cable last me that long.

I am of the belief that wire is not just wire. I do believe cable does make a difference. Upgrading to George L's on my pedal board made a significant difference in tone and clarity. 

One example is with my tv cable. I had an issue with my HD box with a poor signal. The Rogers tech notice I was using crappy store bought cables and splitters which may have been causing the problem. He changed it to what he called, "The good stuff", and although my box had to be replaced in the end, he showed me a significant increase in signal strength. 

My opinion is, if wire can have different tonal characteristics such as guitar strings, then it can surely have different conductive characteristics that could lead to better signal and tone.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

kw_guitarguy said:


> Personally, I like Planet Waves cables, I like the build quality and the ends. For my effects gear, I bought their solderless pedal board kit and love it!!!
> 
> ~Andrew


I use the planet waves as well. I bought the premade planet waves cables for my pedal board as I found those big jacks in their pedal board kit taking up way too much room. 
I've thought about trying george L or mogami but I just don't know that spending big dollars on cable is going to make that much difference. Those that have swear it does.


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## Guest (May 12, 2009)

ne1roc said:


> I am of the belief that wire is not just wire. I do believe cable does make a difference.


My statement that started the responses was simplistic. You're right: wires do have different capacitance/foot ratings and over long distances this can have an effect on the signal. The effect is an attenuation of high frequency content.

But: any capacitance-related problems you're experiencing with a cable can be offset with a buffer.

Putting us squarely back to the wire-is-wire scenario.

There are obvious mechanical differences with brands of cable. Buying based on physical properties might lead you to a different choice.



> Upgrading to George L's on my pedal board made a significant difference in tone and clarity.


I respect your experience here but unfortunately it about as far from a good test in cable differences as you can get. You changed many variables (many connections), not just one. And you were aware of what you're were changing -- so you're biased when doing the comparison.

Double blind testing supports the wire-is-wire view point.

My experience with George L's cable is the only difference is they're a right PIA to solder. The inner conductor is tiny, maybe 20 strands tops. Incredibly fragile and difficult to work with when you're soldering ends. Since I'm a wire-is-wire guy they sound the same to me as any other wire I'm making cables out of.



> One example is with my tv cable. I had an issue with my HD box with a poor signal. The Rogers tech notice I was using crappy store bought cables and splitters which may have been causing the problem. He changed it to what he called, "The good stuff", and although my box had to be replaced in the end, he showed me a significant increase in signal strength.


Again: not a good test. First, because you don't describe _exactly_ what he did it's a poor example (he might have added a signal booster -- I know Rogers did that to my place when I complained about poor signal quality). The other thing that makes this a poor example is: by the time that cable signal reaches your house it's traveled through _miles and miles_ of cable. All kinds of different brands and quality cable. The last 20-50 feet it runs through in your house is an insignificant portion of that signal's journey. I suspect the boost did more for you than the cables. Possibly he built the cables better -- made the connection between the cable and the screw-on interface better. But I seriously doubt the _wire_ he used was any better (or different) than the store bought stuff you were using.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

iaresee said:


> My statement that started the responses was simplistic. You're right: wires do have different capacitance/foot ratings and over long distances this can have an effect on the signal. The effect is an attenuation of high frequency content.
> 
> But: any capacitance-related problems you're experiencing with a cable can be offset with a buffer.
> 
> ...



You forgot to give me *your* opinion on guitar strings?


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## Guest (May 12, 2009)

ne1roc said:


> You forgot to give me *your* opinion on guitar strings?


Edit: I didn't answer because they're not comparable. A guitar string is vibrating in a magnetic field. A wire is passing electrons. They aren't comparable beyond the fact that both _might _contain some same basic elements (and even then, they're not made of the _exact_ same elements). It's a bit like comparing tires to hoses -- both are used to make your car run, both are made out of some type of rubber, and that's where it ends.


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## Salokin (Nov 10, 2008)

What makes a cable good or not?


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## Guest (May 12, 2009)

Salokin said:


> What makes a cable good or not?


"Good" is pretty subjective. Some people like a big, thick cable. If it feels solid and is heavy it'll be "good" to them. Some people like to see a low F/foot rating -- that'd be a "good" cable to them. Some people like a specific brand of plug, again "good" == having plug X on it.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Salokin said:


> What makes a cable good or not?


Insulation and reliability, IMO.
If a cable is well shielded and last a long time, its done its job, IMO. I cant hear any difference between them.

while monster mayshow graphs and stats that show their cables to have less degradation, signal noise etc., I am not convinced that these differences are perceptible in the real world.

Its funny, I have cables that were mid-priced 20 yrs ago that are still going strong...and other higher or lower end ones that are only a year old that are dead.

I cant appreciate tonal qualities between cables, but for a premium priced cable to have a short lifespan (as in the OPs Monsters), is disgraceful.


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

I use these cables:










Made by a Montreal company called Digiflex using Canare GS-6 cable and Neutrik plugs. You can find them at Steve's, Archambault or any number of other dealers in Canada. The label says 10-year warranty but I believe they now offer a lifetime warranty.

By the way, many consider the Monster cables as the worst cable on the market in terms of price/quality ratio. You would do better with almost any other cable name-brand cable (PlanetWaves, Digiflex, Dimarzio, Spectraflex, Whirlwind, Fulltone, etc).


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## sysexguy (Mar 5, 2006)

I will be a minority here and disagree completely with the lean of this thread. 

1) a "test" whether done for marketing sake or in the name of some degree of "science" requires a benchmark or standard, only one person actually mentioned this (using a Belden as standard). The CBC's verdict on HDMI is worth about as much as a meter of used Red Green show duct tapehwopv that said I do not defend Monster Cable, in addition to being a corporate parasite, their products do not impress me.

2) A "test" requires proper testing conditions, I remember bring a Cornford to a dealer who tried it out using the cheap molded cord from a Fender case, amp sucked, no deal.....I have a new rule, if a device doesn't make any difference, maybe something else in my chain is causing a problem and I need to find that first. "a chain is only as strong as the weakest link" 

A real life example: customer complains that his pickup upgrade was "a waste of time and money", turns out he had his boss tu-12 inline and his volume pedal after. Usually it's worthwhile to challenge the test standard, occasionally not and then, as Spock says; "a difference that makes no difference, is no difference".

I actually was dead set against cable differences, laughed at Eric Johnson interviews and went to hifi stores with friends for giggles until someone set me straight. We tested a Juke amp (very nice!!!), 1 guitar (a 175) a bunch of ac cords and guitar cords, some of them that looked like boas that just had lunch and some of them that cost more than either the guitar or the amp. I was laughing and shaking my head in the beginning under my breath. When it was my turn to play, everything changed and I now take my cables very seriously.

Should I have convinced anyone to dig further, a word of warning, there is lots of snake oil so buyer beware. There is also lots of cases were the function can be lost, for example, I once mic'd a drum kit using super high cables which sounded great but were so heavy that the mics wouldn't retain their critical positioning, so in the end, the net gain was negative. I'm not up for a BB flame fest, just telling my story.

Andy


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> My opinion is, if wire can have different tonal characteristics such as guitar strings, then it can surely have different conductive characteristics that could lead to better signal and tone.


Nope!:sport-smiley-002:

Well, I will admit that there's quality to consider. Who needs a wire that breaks? That's a MECHANICAL thing!

As for tone, guitar cable has essentially only two ELECTRICAL properties that could affect a signal, that being capacitance per foot between the inner conductor and the outer shield for one and just basic resistance for the other.

A basic capacitor is just two pieces of metal with a small air gap between them. A voltage charge can be induced between them. An AC voltage can be "coupled" between them.

So the inner wire and shield of a guitar cable form a basic capacitor. The value depends on the surface area of the conductors involved. With audio cables it is expressed as capacitance per foot. So a typical value of 10 picofarad (which is VERY small!) can add up if you have a 100' cable to 1000 picofarad.

Some manufacturers will brag that they show 7 picofarads/ft and others might have 11 pf/ft. The logical choice would be the one with 7 but as usual, there are details!

First we have to ask ourselves, what does that capacitance do and how much is important or trivial?

That capacitance tends to bypass higher frequencies. However, what we call high frequencies with audio is just mice nuts compared to higher radio, tv, cellphone and satellite frequencies. Even if we used that 100' example with 1000 pf of capacitance we would have a hard time hearing much of a treble drop. Cranking the treble knob up a notch or two would more than swamp the effect out!

Any conductor has resistance. Thicker wire has less resistance than thinner wire. So if that cable has cheap thin wire it will show a higher resistance but guess what? As far as tone goes, who cares? Resistance has NOTHING to do with tone!

It has to do with volume, of course. Resistance to a signal is really signal loss. However, the loss through even a cheap cable is again, mice nuts if not moth nuts. The gain of your amp should more than compensate. You'd need bat ears to even notice.

Resistance is the same no matter what the frequency, so ALL frequencies in your signal will see the same loss! There will be absolutely no change in bass frequencies vs. mids or highs.

So what IS important? Mechanical things! If you look at a studio cable like Belden 8410 you will see that it has a conductor made up of many fine strands. This means that the total wire gauge is large enough to have acceptably low resistance but flexible enough not to break. The conductor has a strong foam dialectric between the centre conductor and the outer shield, which is also woven of fine strands. There's also lots of cotton thread and good rubber involved. This adds up to a cable that can stand being stomped on by epileptic hyperactive singer/front men on stage for years!

A lot of guys pointed out the advantages of decent quality plugs and how well they are soldered. Quite right!

That's the long and the short of it! However, if someone is still not convinced they are welcome to send me a cheque for $1000 (Cdn) and I will make them a Wild Bill custom guitar cable soaked in ammonium difloozlewarts, under galactic background electromagnetic emissions at the lowest ebb of the 11 year sunspot cycle.

If that doesn't inspire buyer confidence what could?:smile:

:food-smiley-004:


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## Guest (May 14, 2009)

sysexguy said:


> I actually was dead set against cable differences, laughed at Eric Johnson interviews and went to hifi stores with friends for giggles until someone set me straight. We tested a Juke amp (very nice!!!), 1 guitar (a 175) a bunch of ac cords and guitar cords, some of them that looked like boas that just had lunch and some of them that cost more than either the guitar or the amp. I was laughing and shaking my head in the beginning under my breath. When it was my turn to play, everything changed and I now take my cables very seriously.


Andy, unfortunately your test fails the bias requirements. You knew cables were being changed. And you knew which cable you were using.

Yes, you need a standard, but it can be set at test time by the person administering the test. The person taking the test, for it to be truly well and good, can't know what they're playing through at any time. And the tester can't know what cable they're using either while the test is being administered (that's the double blind part: tester and testee are both in the dark).

At one point Wild Bill and I had a really good conversation about cables and double blind testing. It's on this site some place and a good read.

The long and the short of it is: as long as you know what you're playing through the test is worth nothing. When it's a subjective test subject, and cables are, the brain's bias is very hard to control. And double blind testing is the best we've got for controlling this.

For setting up a very good cable test here's my suggested test harness:

Guitar -> A common cable -> passive A/B loop box with no LEDs

In loop A you put one cable you want to test. In loop B you put the other cable you want to test.

Loop box out -> short cable -> good buffer -> short cable -> amplifier

This is the best way, IMO to test the cables. You need someone to press the A or B button a bunch of times so you don't know which cable you're starting with. Play away, switch cables, see if you can hear a difference.

The buffer is important. It removes the capacitance effects different cables have.

Any test that starts with "we went into a store and tried different cables" is so flawed as to be not a test at all I'm afraid. Damn "science" always getting in the way. 

To restate what I've said (and Bill as said up there too): buy for mechanical properties.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

What "matters" in cable is partly determined by where you use it.

For example, Bill mentioned the resistance of the wire, which is summed over the linear distance of the wire, just like capacitance. Although most two conductor "zip-cord" style cable of 20-gauge and thicker has fairly low internal resistance, let's imagine you have something with 1 ohm resistance per 10 ft. Now run a cable from a power amp to speakers 40ft away. From the amp's perspective, that's another 4 ohms on top of whatever load is imposed by the speaker cab itself, and the amp will behave a little differently. That same 4 ohms added to the resistive load provided by the guitar going *into* the amp is, in a word, nothing.

If I'm running cable between a sensing device/signal-source, and something that amplifies it, my interest in the shielding properties of the cable will increase as a function of how low-level the signal source is and how much gain I'm going to have to apply to it to make it usable. Three *micro*volt electrophysiological signals have to be shielded MUCH better than 100 millivolt gutar signals.

One's interest in the cable capacitance will be a function of the anticipated bandwidth of the signal and the distance needed to be covered. For 8-inch patch-cords between pedals, the difference in total capacitance between so-so and high-end patch cables will be negligible. If you,re running voice-mic signals for acoustic instruments 50 feet from a base-board connector to the mixer in the control room, you can bet your bippy you'll be VERY concerned about cable capacitance, because you need the bandwidth, and because the total length puts it at risk.

Gotta run, we have a fire drill.


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## Justinator (Jan 27, 2008)

High end cables are definately not worth the money. Any small difference in quality will not be noticable. As somone said, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If you have a crappy solder joint somewhere, or your jack is dirty you just defeated the purpose of the high end cable. Copper is copper, metal is metal - a 20 dollar cable does it for me.

*Yes there is resistance and other factors, but theres countless other things to affect your sound besides the cable. Im just throwin my opinion out there.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Justinator said:


> High end cables are definately not worth the money. Any small difference in quality will not be noticable. As somone said, a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. If you have a crappy solder joint somewhere, or your jack is dirty you just defeated the purpose of the high end cable. Copper is copper, metal is metal - a 20 dollar cable does it for me.
> 
> *Yes there is resistance and other factors, but theres countless other things to affect your sound besides the cable. Im just throwin my opinion out there.


I don't know much about the technical side I just know what I hear. I have 6 pedals on a board and an outboard reverb that adds an extra 5 feet of cable to the mix. I was noticing a huge loss of tone in from the pedal board to just plugging in straight. This loss was definitely noticeable even on stage. I researched and came up with 2 different options. I could either replace all my Planet Waves cables(which I actually think are great cables to begin with) with mogami or George L's that make the claim that they are superior in claiming back that tone loss. Or I could put a buffer in the signal chain. Now I didn't really care how I solved this problem. I just wanted my tone to be near perfect to what I get by plugging a cable straight in to the amp. So I decided to go the cheap route first. Replacing all my cables with a high end would run in to several hundred dollars including having a couple spares in my gig bag, which is my common practice. I bought an Axxess Buffer and put it at the beginning of my chain. Well it is pretty much impossible to tell now if there is any tone loss between plugging all my effects in or plugging straight in. 
So although I don't know if purchasing the high end cables would have solved my problem but if it did then I guess the cables would be a good investment. At this point for me I don't think it would be worth it to purchase anything better than my Planet Waves cables as I don't think I could improve it any more, to justify the cost. I wish I had access to some cables just to experiment. But I"m not about to go out and purchase them.


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## Guest (May 14, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> I bought an Axxess Buffer and put it at the beginning of my chain. Well it is pretty much impossible to tell now if there is any tone loss between plugging all my effects in or plugging straight in.


I say it time and again: buffers are not a bad thing. Nice call.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

iaresee said:


> I say it time and again: buffers are not a bad thing. Nice call.


Not quite. A _well designed_ buffer _can_ be a good thing_ at times_. A poor one, or one in the wrong place, can kill your tone.

TG


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

traynor_garnet said:


> Not quite. A _well designed_ buffer _can_ be a good thing_ at times_. A poor one, or one in the wrong place, can kill your tone.
> 
> TG



Yes and those 2 issues are easily avoided with a little research. From all the research I did the Axxess Buffer is very highly regarded and has delivered the goods as far as I'm concerned. It seemed the most common consensus was to place it at the beginning of the chain. Especially good for me since my Xoctics RC booster is on the other end.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Yes and those 2 issues are easily avoided with a little research. From all the research I did the Axxess Buffer is very highly regarded and has delivered the goods as far as I'm concerned. It seemed the most common consensus was to place it at the beginning of the chain. Especially good for me since my Xoctics RC booster is on the other end.


Here again Terry it may not always be clear what's to blame for a problem and what's the cure.

When you make up a pedal board and plug them all in a chain all the inputs of every pedal are in parallel with each other. They load each other down and this is what really sucks the signal! Playing with cables can get you even more confused, especially if you hit any of the pedal switches during your testing. Adding or removing the input of any pedal will change the losses. Most pedals are not what is called "true bypass" and worse yet, among advertising suits there are different meanings for "true bypass". 

That being said, you know what's the standard sure-fire techie cure for such problems? That's right! A good buffer!

So forget about cables in your scenario. They're not relevant. Besides, you did the right thing anyway.

:food-smiley-004:


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## Guest (May 14, 2009)

traynor_garnet said:


> Not quite. A _well designed_ buffer _can_ be a good thing_ at times_. A poor one, or one in the wrong place, can kill your tone.


I have yet to see a commercial buffer that didn't fall into the good buffer category. You? As for DIY...I think I showed you can build some ass-tastic sounding buffers on your bench.  But that you can also build some nice stuff for a few bucks too.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

iaresee said:


> I have yet to see a commercial buffer that didn't fall into the good buffer category. You? As for DIY...I think I showed you can build some ass-tastic sounding buffers on your bench.  But that you can also build some nice stuff for a few bucks too.


Love your signature BTW, Ian!

I keep thinking of that old song "Pictures of Matchstick Men" every time I read it!:smile:

:food-smiley-004:


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Wild Bill said:


> .........However, what we call high frequencies with audio is just *mice nuts * compared to higher radio, tv, cellphone and satellite frequencies. .......


For those of you not familiar with this unit of measure, please email
Wild Bill for a comparison chart. He, yes our own Wild Bill, created this very useful measure that can be universally applied to extremely precise scientific/electronics theory and calculations.

Thanks Wild Bill.

Dave

PS To all....this post was meant in good fun, NO disrespect to Wild Bill. I laugh every time he uses this "unit of measure"


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

iaresee said:


> I have yet to see a commercial buffer that didn't fall into the good buffer category. You? As for DIY...I think I showed you can build some ass-tastic sounding buffers on your bench.  But that you can also build some nice stuff for a few bucks too.


If you are restricting it to dedicated buffers, then probably not (you just wrote "buffer" in the OP). However, many guys don't want to take up space with a dedicated buffer so they look for an effect pedal that also has a good buffer (kill two birds with one stone). Some Boss and other low end pedals have terrible buffers that really suck tone; others are fine.

Then there are cases like the KLON where people find the buffer offers an incredible improvement in tone or totally destroys the sound of other pedals running after it. 

And if you use fuzz pedals, look out . . . (no buffer before fuzz)

TG


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## JimiGuy7 (Jan 10, 2008)

Planet waves cables are the best I have ever used! I have two twento footers and I bought the Planet Waves pedal kit which is also awesome. If the break, just take the jack off, cut the cable and pop the jack back on. The on/off switch is also awesome and they seem to be tough as nails considering I have gigged with and have been using the same cables for over 2 years! I have never had a cable last that long! No noise and no complaints, best cables I have ever used!:smile:


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## Guest (May 14, 2009)

traynor_garnet said:


> If you are restricting it to dedicated buffers, then probably not (you just wrote "buffer" in the OP).


Absolutely: dedicated buffers are what I'm talking about here.



> However, many guys don't want to take up space with a dedicated buffer so they look for an effect pedal that also has a good buffer (kill two birds with one stone). Some Boss and other low end pedals have terrible buffers that really suck tone; others are fine.


I'm a big believer in dedicated buffers.



> Then there are cases like the KLON where people find the buffer offers an incredible improvement in tone or totally destroys the sound of other pedals running after it.
> 
> And if you use fuzz pedals, look out . . . (no buffer before fuzz)


The destroys-pedals-after-it is a common problem with all well designed buffers. To be a good buffer you have to have a high impedance output and put out a low impedance signal. And some pedals (like the aforementioned fuzz pedals) were designed assuming they were being driven by a high impedance output (like your guitar pickups). Experimenting with buffer placement is a must.

(I say this not to you directly, but just for the benefit of the thread/conversation in general)


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## Guest (May 14, 2009)

Wild Bill said:


> Love your signature BTW, Ian!
> 
> I keep thinking of that old song "Pictures of Matchstick Men" every time I read it!:smile:


Thanks Bill! That is a _perfect_ example of the kind of note (I guess notes in this case) I was thinking about writing that signature. For those that don't know the Status Quo song, it's the intro that's apt here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1cJFIGHkJA -- ahh, the 60's, so sorry I wasn't there for them.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

My favourite 1-note solo, around 1:36. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYURminupFw Think of it like Neil Young without the fuzz.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

iaresee said:


> I'm a big believer in dedicated buffers.


I'm a big believer in my ears. I definitely heard a severe tone loss due to very long cable run from amp to pedal board through all the TB pedals and guitar chord. When I put the Axxess buffer on board the tone from being plugged in with a 5 foo Planet Waves cable or in my pedal board was pretty much identical. 
I picked up the Axxess pedal used (but brand new condition) for $100 a savings of $50 plus tax and shipping over new. It probably would have cost me several hundred dollars for mogami or George L cables to re-cable everything and give me a couple spares. And it may or may not have solved the problem.


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## Bruiser (Oct 23, 2008)

*Cables*

If you switch guitar alot during performance or even at home the best way I've found is the Snap Jack Cables. www.snapjackcables.com 
I've been using them for about 6 months and right away I noticed a huge signal boost, very clean, no noise when switching, these things are great.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

Bruiser said:


> If you switch guitar alot during performance or even at home the best way I've found is the Snap Jack Cables. www.snapjackcables.com
> I've been using them for about 6 months and right away I noticed a huge signal boost, very clean, no noise when switching, these things are great.


According to some folk here, you are biased and your opinion means nothing unless you have an engineering degree of some sort.9kkhhd


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## Bruiser (Oct 23, 2008)

*Cables*

I dunno but my ears have served me pretty well with over 33+ years of playing experience, soldering, wiring my own pickups, building my own left handed guitars, tubing my own amps, so ya, maybe you can say I do have a degree in electrical engineering. 
If it sounds good it sounds good and that's a subjective topic all in its own. I just made a recommendation. Just because you might not like them (or have not tried them) doesn't give you cause to jump all over a recommendation. Everyone's ears, setup, guitars and rigs are different and they make a big difference with *my setup* that's all I'm trying to say. I'm not trying to force something down your throat. if I said Planet Waves would it have tasted better for you? 
Better yet you can come by and pick up the set I bought last year and have been sitting in the spare studio room ever since I switched.kqoct


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## sysexguy (Mar 5, 2006)

> According to some folk here, you are biased and your opinion means nothing unless you have an engineering degree of some sort


unless you are biased and your opinion means nothing because you have an engineering degree....

fwiw my ring was scratching guitars so i don't wear it

Andy


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## Guest (May 15, 2009)

ne1roc said:


> According to some folk here, you are biased and your opinion means nothing unless you have an engineering degree of some sort.9kkhhd


Edit: why even bother...


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## Guest (May 15, 2009)

sysexguy said:


> unless you are biased and your opinion means nothing because you have an engineering degree....


You think you'd know better then to call that a test. 

You guys with your backs up...silly. _It's the internet_. We're all wrong.

I happen to be pretty passionate about electronics, being an Electrical Engineer, so an electronics-related topic gets my attention. It's been dry, dry, dry around here for weeks. This has been a nice change. It's not like I'm over in the luthiers section telling you how it is when it comes to the chemical properties of lacquer -- I know f'all about lacquer. But I know gobs about electrons.

More than happy to shut up if you don't want to hear it. I don't see anyone calling out Wild Bill on this...



> fwiw my ring was scratching guitars so i don't wear it


I don't wear mine when I play. I can't palm mute with it on. It rings against the strings. What's your degree in?


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## sysexguy (Mar 5, 2006)

Mechanical here, I hope we're all taking this too seriously, some of the other forums are out of hand. 

Andy


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> According to some folk here, you are biased and your opinion means nothing unless you have an engineering degree of some sort.


No, opinions always mean something. It's just that they are not facts. However, they ARE input and more input is always good. It might help to uncover the NECESSARY fact that makes your opinion valid!

Opinions might be good to you yourself but they will only work for your setup. There are always technical reasons why something works or doesn't. You can have an opinion and the result is right but your explanation can be completely wrong. It worked for you and you think that's enough. Somebody else can try it and spend hours spinning their wheels, 'cuz they don't have an understanding of what's going on and they don't have the EXACT same setup as you have!

Mother Nature couldn't give a hoot about our opinions on how she works. Her volts are her volts and SHE made the rules!:smile:

I've always believed that it's very important to try to understand exactly WHY something works! That way you can cope with unexpected changes. It's like the guy on an assembly line who does nothing but install Ford carburetors. You ask him to come over some weekend to help you install a new carburetor in your Chevy and he can't help. Why? 'Cuz he doesn't really understand anything about carburetors. He just knows how to go through the motions with the Ford ones. If it doesn't look exactly the same he's at a loss.

Almost every day someone drops an amp off for me to fix. They tell me the symptoms and often have an idea what's wrong. They are rarely ever right!

Their ideas are always quite logical. That's where opinions fail. Opinions are usually quite logical but you can prove anything with logic if you don't have all the facts! If you are missing the important facts your opinion will seem to make sense yet be totally off track.

I'm often wrong with my initial diagnosis of an amp problem. It's only after I've taken measurements and checked enough things that I can zero in exactly on the cause of the trouble. I've learned not to shoot my mouth off until I've got the amp opened up. Guessing beforehand is just that, guessing.

Learning by rote may seem faster. Lots of guys say "Don't explain it! Just give me the answer!" The problem is, you never know enough to figure out anything that's slightly different from what you did before.

If your "guru" dies you're screwed!

That's why I have so little patience for all the "mojo" spread around about power cords affecting tone and such. Or guitar cables, to stick with the opening post. People swallow someone else's OPINION and not necessarily facts! 99 times out of 100 if you trace it back you end up with someone making a ton of money from selling you that $1000 power cord.

I have NEVER understood why so many guys will put so much effort into collecting "mojo" and will never, ever open up an electronics text book! It's like why some folks refuse to read the IKEA instructions on how to put that entertainment centre together and end up cursing and swearing for hours in frustration. I just don't have that kind of patience or lust for hurting myself. Gimme the instructions FIRST!

That's also why I tend to be so long-winded in my answers for tech questions. If I help someone UNDERSTAND what's going on then I've helped him for life! He'll have the basics he needs to figure things out for himself!

It wouldn't be obvious here 'cuz it's an open forum where the players keep changing but I get a lot of questions from the people I deal with in person. In those situations I've been forced to be a bit more discriminating. If I'm answering questions for someone who truly wants to learn I cheerfully spend more time than I really should. However, if I find after a few questions that he really doesn't want to learn anything but just wants to pick my brain for quick answers to his problems with no intention of ever really learning then I clam up! I'm too busy trying to earn a living for my family to be his techie "Gulf Oil repairman" living in his basement.

Sorry if I sound cranky! I haven't had my morning coffee yet!:smile:

:food-smiley-004:


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Quick get Bill a coffee.... I'd even drive it there !!


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

Hey......while I do respect the obvious knowledge you guys have in your fields of expertise, GC was asking for recommendations on guitar cables not a science lesson on why wire is just wire. My experience with Monster cable has been great, his has not. One cable, $45.00 over two years isn't overpriced hype in my case. My experience with George L's on my board has also been excellent. Why question my experience? Monster and George L's isn't paying me to bs?

Check out the Evidence Audio testimonials at their site. Lots of upper end 
clients experiencing very noticeable improvements in tone and clarity.
Paid endorsements? Some..........maybe......who knows????????? 

Don't knock it till you try it is the way I work.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

iaresee said:


> You think you'd know better then to call that a test.
> 
> You guys with your backs up...silly. _It's the internet_. We're all wrong.
> 
> I happen to be pretty passionate about electronics, being an Electrical Engineer, so an electronics-related topic gets my attention. It's been dry, dry, dry around here for weeks. This has been a nice change. It's not like I'm over in the luthiers section telling you how it is when it comes to the chemical properties of lacquer -- I know f'all about lacquer. But I know gobs about electrons.....


Dude your electrons are screwing up my finish.:sport-smiley-002:......

Yeah the internet..... when I was starting to build last year I kept reading on the _internet_ about how many coats folks were using .. some as many as nine..... after spraying a few guitars I began to realize that things is weird.... kqoct .. these dudes are using rattle cans..... my last guitar received 3 coats. I can lay lacquer down nice and smooth and fairly heavy with my spray gun.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

iaresee said:


> More than happy to shut up if you don't want to hear it. I don't see anyone calling out Wild Bill on this...


There are those of us here that appreciate your input as well as Wild Bill's.


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## Fader (Mar 10, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> There are those of us here that appreciate your input as well as Wild Bill's.


Myself as well. I try to have an open mind and keep the bullshit repellent handy. 

A few years ago I bought some nice flexible cable. It was a pleasure to wind up, but it wasn't real durable and didn't last six months.

I'm using Rapco cables now. They're quality cables but about as much fun as rolling up a garden hose.

I was thinking about going wireless. Any wireless users out there?


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

shoretyus said:


> Dude your electrons are screwing up my finish.:sport-smiley-002:......
> 
> Yeah the internet..... when I was starting to build last year I kept reading on the _internet_ about how many coats folks were using .. some as many as nine..... after spraying a few guitars I began to realize that things is weird.... kqoct .. these dudes are using rattle cans..... my last guitar received 3 coats. I can lay lacquer down nice and smooth and fairly heavy with my spray gun.


You have a spray gun??? When I was a lad we would have KILLED for a spray gun!

We had to put the lacquer in our mouths and spit out each coat!

Geez! And you have a spray gun!

:food-smiley-004:


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## forum_crawler (Sep 25, 2008)

How about RockCable? I have seen these 12" right angle patch cords selling at Mother's music for $5. Are they any good? I am wondering since I have too many pedals and I don't want to have to spend $5/neutrik plug + cable if I can get cheaper alternatives. I have about 20 pedals.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Wild Bill said:


> You have a spray gun??? When I was a lad we would have KILLED for a spray gun!
> 
> We had to put the lacquer in our mouths and spit out each coat!
> 
> ...


Ha Ha.... if it makes you feel any better ... it took my last $200 to buy it...


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## z0z0 (Feb 19, 2009)

Bruiser said:


> If you switch guitar alot during performance or even at home the best way I've found is the Snap Jack Cables. www.snapjackcables.com
> I've been using them for about 6 months and right away I noticed a huge signal boost, very clean, no noise when switching, these things are great.


I was thinking of these cables as well. Does anyone else use them?
I was wondering if the magnetic connector was a gimmick.
I would think there is signal loss at the connector gap but what do I know since I am not an engineer.

Guitar Player gave the Snap Jack cables a good review
http://www.guitarplayer.com/article/snapjack-guitar-cable/Dec-07/32611

I have the beige/brown braided yorkville cable from L&M because it matches the colour of my guitar (good criteria eh?) ha ha ha


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

z0z0 said:


> I was thinking of these cables as well. Does anyone else use them?
> I was wondering if the magnetic connector was a gimmick.
> I would think there is signal loss at the connector gap but what do I know since I am not an engineer.
> 
> I have the beige/brown braided yorkville cable from L&M because it matches the colour of my guitar (good criteria eh?) ha ha ha


I have a set of the snap jack. The magnet is no gimmick, it works very well. However, one end fell totally to pieces on me. As mentioned earlier though, I seem to be hard on cables as my Monster cables have had to be soldered several times as well. I put the snap jack back together again and right now it is working fine.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

ne1roc said:


> Hey......while I do respect the obvious knowledge you guys have in your fields of expertise, GC was asking for recommendations on guitar cables not a science lesson on why wire is just wire. My experience with Monster cable has been great, his has not. One cable, $45.00 over two years isn't overpriced hype in my case. My experience with George L's on my board has also been excellent. Why question my experience? Monster and George L's isn't paying me to bs?
> 
> Check out the Evidence Audio testimonials at their site. Lots of upper end
> clients experiencing very noticeable improvements in tone and clarity.
> ...


Certainly good reading for the most part. But I am also a layman when it comes to cables. I just want the friggin things to work when I plug them in and not break or have to be re-sodered all the time. Maybe I am asking too much from the cable?


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## Zacman0126 (Apr 20, 2009)

For guitar/amp cables I go with Conquest. They use Switchcraft/Neutrik connectors and the solder jobs are impeccible.

For my pedal board I go with George L's effects kit, has worked for me so far.


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## MachineGunMolly (Mar 15, 2009)

I use "RoadHogs" cables,Only because they were the bigger i could found in diameter...Yeah!Size does matter! 
-MGM-


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## Fader (Mar 10, 2009)

The Evidence Audio Lyric HG 10’ Instrument Cable gets some good reviews.

http://www.oncables.com/reviews/audio-cable/evidence-audio-lyric-hg.html

At just over $10 per foot, it better be good. 

http://accessories.musiciansfriend.com/product/Evidence-Audio-Lyric-HG-Instrument-Cable?sku=330279


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