# Canada Post Strike



## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

First of all, my apologies to anyone who works at Canada Post. I'm sure you work super-hard and deserve the best salaries and treatment from management, as I'm sure most of us do also. This is just an opinion from a consumer who uses the service but is not involved in the nitty gritty details of your contentious workplace issues.

Does anyone else feel like this Canada Post strike does not (or will not) really affect them all that much? Sure, things will take longer to eventually arrive, and more timely alternative delivery services are more expensive. But I feel like my mail delivery in the past has already been intermittent (no mail for days, then tons in one day) and that packages often don't arrive by the delivery standard date (or a delivery notice is left even though someone is home).

The intent of a strike is usually to show management that the resulting loss of service is detrimental to customer satisfaction and ultimately the success of the business. But I am wondering if the rotating strikes will actually have the opposite effect, showing that Canadians can handle degraded mail service without having that much of an impact.

For example, let's say the strike ended next week. The workers got everything they wanted, postal rates remained the same, but delivery times for everything just doubled, thus saving Canada Post some money. Mail would be delivered every other day, packages normally taking 3-5 days would now take 6-10 days, etc. Would you care? Sure it would be nicer to get things faster, but would a few extra days really matter? I think people would get used to it fairly quickly.

I feel like there are so many other options available (Internet, couriers) that I would feel zero impact from an outcome like this. If a pedal I purchased from a fellow forum member now takes twice as long to arrive, it wouldn't be a big deal to me. If I needed it faster, I could just use a courier and pay a bit extra.

What do you all think? Would a degradation in service really matter that much to you? Let's stay out of the issues between the union and management (that kind of discussion probably belongs more in the Politics forum), but instead focus on how you are affected by Canada Post as a consumer or business.


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## Guest (Nov 2, 2018)

Already there are more than a dozen deaths related to marijuana withdrawal from late pot shipments from the provincial dope store.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

My mail is sporadic at the best of times so this rotating crap doesn't really seem to make a difference. But last week the strike was at the main depot in Stoney Creek so the entire Niagara region saw no mail for 3 days.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I'm thinking of logging a complaint. This strike has not stopped my mail one bit. I still get the dam bills and all the junk mail that is 80% of my mail. It seems like the mail is more reliable in this supposed strike then when there is no strike. 
I've been thinking about it for a long time and I think its time to opt out of the "Mail System". Stop all my junk mail and transfer the few bills we don't have online yet to an online payment method.
Canada Post is an obsolete service. We don't need it.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

guitarman2 said:


> I'm thinking of logging a complaint. This strike has not stopped my mail one bit. I still get the dam bills and all the junk mail that is 80% of my mail. It seems like the mail is more reliable in this supposed strike then when there is no strike.
> I've been thinking about it for a long time and I think its time to opt out of the "Mail System". Stop all my junk mail and transfer the few bills we don't have online yet to an online payment method.
> *Canada Post is an obsolete service*. We don't need it.


With the boom of online shopping, I think that you're totally incorrect there.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

sulphur said:


> With the boom of online shopping, I think that you're totally incorrect there.


Yeah I'm not talking about that part of Canada Post. I'm talking about daily mail delivery. They'll fight tooth and nail to keep that because it will mean a lot of jobs. But I think its obsolete and not needed. They can compete with UPS|Fedex sure. Although nothing beats Amazon Prime.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

guitarman2 said:


> Yeah I'm not talking about that part of Canada Post. I'm talking about daily mail delivery. They'll fight tooth and nail to keep that because it will mean a lot of jobs. But I think its obsolete and not needed. They can compete with UPS|Fedex sure. Although nothing beats Amazon Prime.


You can opt out of the junk mail, you may have to put a sign on your mailbox,if possible.
Not sure if you can contact CP and have it halted that way.

As far as letters, yes, that aspect is dying off with online use too.
Parcels have become the bulk of the business.

I just paid $110 to ship a guitar from Ontario to QC with Fedex, robbery ffs.
Fill your boots using a courier.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

What I don't understand is that they are complaining that they have to many parcels to deliver... Letters are almost non existant and the parcels has saved they're jobs since the prior government was going to cut them down and now they complain because they have work to do !!! 

Fuck them... Privatise it I say...


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

My bro is still waiting for his gov't stash he bought over a week ago. Amazon can get their shit here in 24-48 hrs but Can. post cant do it in a week?


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

You can stop the junk mail by the postman at the Canada Post website. Other stuff you need a sign. When I get home tonight I will try to remember to take a pic of the sign I made. Works like a charm.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

In my work, we get customer payments for big $$ to both Edmonton and Toronto by mail. Obviously we're encouraging everyone to pay @bank or online, but lots of very rural accounts and older 'not online' people. Yes, it's having an impact - and we charge heavy late fees, so our customers are eating the brunt of it.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Haven't really been affected, other than my issue of Vintage Guitar arriving a few days late.

Yes, it is the case that the bulk of CP's business these days is flyers (not much pride-of-work from that, compared to old-school delivery of birthday and christmas cards from a middle-aged guy with a moustache handing them to you at the door) and parcels. I suspect the complaint from carriers/deliverers is not that parcels provide too much work, but that the system, as it exists, is not well-adapted to that. Certainly, if the parcel itself requires some sort of delivery confirmation at the door, then that involves more time than simply slipping something through a mail-slot, and the time allotted to completing the route may be insufficient if the parcel volume is high enough. And if you have a "superbox" as we do, there are drop-boxes for parcels that can manage a reasonable size. However, whether the number and size of dropboxes can continue to match what customers have ordered and are expecting to receive is another thing. In short, on-line shopping may be creating an increasing lag between what consumers expect and what mail delivery can provide, under its current format. As a society, we have offloaded "going to the store", expect the store to come to us, and I'm not so sure the postal system is designed to cope with the degree of change that entails.

Consider as well that all of that presupposes an urban context, where everything is close together. The days of mailboxes by the highway, with a little flag that can be set to indicate delivery, may be long gone. Which is why one of the chief complaints raised by the postal union is the lower wages paid to rural postal workers, compared to urban ones.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Moosehead said:


> My bro is still waiting for his gov't stash he bought over a week ago. Amazon can get their shit here in 24-48 hrs but Can. post cant do it in a week?


Our own forum honcho waited 12 days for his order.
An address label hadn't even been issued until a week later or so, just after the strike had started. 
Brilliant move there on the OCS. They also had supply issues, all provinces seemed to too.
A shitshow, but one I wouldn't competely blame CP for.

Privatization is idotic. Pay more for shittier service, sure thing.
It's been a profitable business for the most part. I think the biggest issues have been mismanagement.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

mhammer said:


> Consider as well that all of that presupposes an urban context, where everything is close together. The days of mailboxes by the highway, with a little flag that can be set to indicate delivery, may be long gone. Which is why one of the chief complaints raised by the postal union is the lower wages paid to rural postal workers, compared to urban ones.


I think that's what was cleared up a month or two previous to the actual strike.
I think that they were calling for a wildcat if that wasn't cleared up.

I was talking to my mail guy just before the strike.
He said that all the little stuff was worked out, but the big issues management wasn't even discussing them.
Not dealing in good faith, no big suprise from any corporation.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

keto said:


> In my work, we get customer payments for big $$ to both Edmonton and Toronto by mail. Obviously we're encouraging everyone to pay @bank or online, but lots of very rural accounts and older 'not online' people. Yes, it's having an impact - and we charge heavy late fees, so our customers are eating the brunt of it.


That is unfortunate for those customers, but it was a foreseeable event that they could have planned for in advance. They could have hired a courier to pick up the payment, if that costs less than the late fee. Or they could have looked into setting up online banking a while ago, or if that is literally not an option, they could setup power of attorney with someone who could do it for them. I think choosing to be 'not online' isn't really an age thing anymore. I know some younger people that are afraid of computers too, but then my grandma in her eighties regularly gets and pays bills online. Online banking has been around for decades now. However, maintaining a high rate of service for mail delivery just to ensure such a small minority is served is kind of like making sure telegraph services are still available for those that are uncomfortable speaking on the phone.



mhammer said:


> I suspect the complaint from carriers/deliverers is not that parcels provide too much work, but that the system, as it exists, is not well-adapted to that.


That is probably very true. There are a lot of other options for parcels though. If Canada Post doubled their delivery times without changing the prices, a lot of people would switch to a courier, thus relieving the parcel strain on Canada Post. They would still keep some parcel business for those that are price sensitive. As the couriers take on more business, they would hopefully be able to benefit from some economies of scale and might even be able to lower their prices a bit as they all compete to win customers from Canada Post. It's a win-win-win.



mhammer said:


> one of the chief complaints raised by the postal union is the lower wages paid to rural postal workers, compared to urban ones.


I never really understood this one. Doesn't the pay for most jobs depend on where you live due to the cost of living? For example, I would suspect that a graphic designer who works in downtown Vancouver would probably be paid more than someone with a similar position in Moncton, mostly due to cost of living differences. Wouldn't rural workers generally have a lower cost of living than urban workers, and therefore lower wages?


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

sulphur said:


> Privatization is idotic. Pay more for shittier service, sure thing.
> It's been a profitable business for the most part. I think the biggest issues have been mismanagement.


Privatization and competition would clearly bring better service and better rates... compared to union workers with guaranteed jobs and fat pensions...


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Frenchy99 said:


> Privatization and competition would clearly bring better service and better rates... compared to union workers with guaranteed jobs and fat pensions...


They have competition now with the couriers.
The couriers charge as much if not more.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

sulphur said:


> They have competition now with the couriers.
> The couriers charge as much if not more.


When your a distribution Co. or just a shipping type of Co, your negotiated rates are much much much lower compared to Canada post rates...

Canada Post has the monopoly for mail and is in such protected by the government... Just like bell and cable here in Cnanda….

You don't see no unlimited TV, Cable, internet and cell phone service here in Canada for 29.95$ a month like in the States !!!


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

Frenchy99 said:


> Privatization and competition would clearly bring better service and better rates... compared to union workers with guaranteed jobs and fat pensions...





sulphur said:


> They have competition now with the couriers.
> The couriers charge as much if not more.


Not sure if privatization or maintaining the status quo is the way to go. It looks like Canada Post actually _*has*_ made a profit in recent years, but not really due to anything they have done... they have just lucked into a favourable market. However, Canada Post also doesn't really need to behave like a real company, because there is no chance of them ever going bankrupt, and that is a bit dangerous for the owners of the company (all of us).

But what if a negotiated deal to end the strike ends up eating into their profits, and then Amazon (their biggest customer) decides to take package delivery into their own hands and/or buy a big stake in one of the other couriers? Canada Post's only profitable segment is parcels, and the future of that is entirely dependant on making sure that they keep Amazon's business. Whatever Canada Post does, they need to either keep costs in line to keep Amazon happy, or plan for success without dependency on Amazon. I think they should go for the latter, because, let's face it, Amazon will eventually deliver their own parcels with their own couriers or drones.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

troyhead said:


> I never really understood this one. Doesn't the pay for most jobs depend on where you live due to the cost of living? For example, I would suspect that a graphic designer who works in downtown Vancouver would probably be paid more than someone with a similar position in Moncton, mostly due to cost of living differences. Wouldn't rural workers generally have a lower cost of living than urban workers, and therefore lower wages?


An entirely reasonable question. I guess where it gets tricky may be in what distinguishes urban from rural. For instance, given that you live in "the KW", does a letter carrier working the area south of the 401 count as urban or rural? Moreover, while we might safely assume that someone who lives in Vancouver also works in Vancouver and has to pay Vancouver housing prices, that would be up to individual employers who wish to attract and hold employees. That employer likely has no legal obligation to provide services everywhere i the country, so topping up salaries by however many thousands, to make sure they can get good recruits is probably about as complicated as that decision needs to be for them. Deciding how to adjust compensation for a national service is a decidedly trickier matter. Do letter-carriers in the KW deserve less than those in Hamilton, Hamilton less than Toronto or Vancouver? Should the compensation for individual cities "float" with current housing costs It would be neverending. So, they make a decision that, if you service an urban area, you get paid this, and if you service what they designate as a rural area, you get paid that. As Jerry and Elaine found out, it is no easy matter to combine the "this" with "that".


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

troyhead said:


> That is unfortunate for those customers, but it was a foreseeable event that they could have planned for in advance. They could have hired a courier to pick up the payment, if that costs less than the late fee. Or they could have looked into setting up online banking a while ago, or if that is literally not an option, they could setup power of attorney with someone who could do it for them. I think choosing to be 'not online' isn't really an age thing anymore. I know some younger people that are afraid of computers too, but then my grandma in her eighties regularly gets and pays bills online. Online banking has been around for decades now. However, maintaining a high rate of service for mail delivery just to ensure such a small minority is served is kind of like making sure telegraph services are still available for those that are uncomfortable speaking on the phone.


Yes, but it's been a very very late harvest, farmers are dependant (in most cases, ENTIRELY dependant) on crop sales to fund payments for machinery (that's me, but land and lines of credit and seed and fertilizer and fuel and repairs and maintenance and on and on). We are getting snow around here today, thank god we had 2 weeks of clear weather after multiple early snows in September stopped harvest in its tracks at a very early stage for anyone north of Calgary. Harvest won't get finished this fall, but it went from 20% around here to 80% in a hurry when the good weather window opened.

Nobody is going to set up a POA just to make farm payments, or at least I haven't experienced it in 16 years here.

Courier service in rural areas, pretty thin.

I think you'd be surprised at how many people 50+ are still not online in rural areas, based on your comment.

That said, almost all of them *can* pay over the counter at the bank (there are some smaller credit unions that don't have us as an option, we have approved all thru Credit Union Central but they haven't added us), but either want to write a cheque for the paper trail, or don't understand it and are scared, or even are blissfully unaware that it's an option - we try to educate them, but when they get an invoice they just look at the numbers, they don't read all the other stuff.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

keto said:


> Courier service in rural areas, pretty thin.


Bingo. That's why we have a Canada Post. Yes, as a Crown Corporation, they can be profitable. But they are also obliged to provide service even where it _isn't_ profitable. Toronto is not the world. The world includes rural Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba, where "neighbours" can be 20km away, and places where a Ford Transit can't drive because there's no road.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

@keto Your points make a lot of sense. I think the rotating strikes are showing that, in most cases, slow mail delivery & pickup is about as good as the regular service. In order to serve those rural people for the long run, consistent but reduced frequency service would probably suit everyone just as well. 



mhammer said:


> That's why we have a Canada Post. Yes, as a Crown Corporation, they can be profitable. But they are also obliged to provide service even where it _isn't_ profitable.


I agree. And my point from above was that Canada Post should focus on making regular mail delivery at least somewhat sustainable in the long run by decreasing its frequency, rather than counting on the parcel business that could disappear in an instant.

As for the urban/rural salaries, I guess the simple solution makes some sense. Or, as you suggested, having it float with some kind of cost of living index. However, just making rural & urban salaries the same doesn’t make much sense to me.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

@troyhead very well said on all counts. A big fuss tho, if they cut to, say, M-W-F in places they now serve daily. Ma n pa farmer not so much, but rural areas do have other ongoing concerns requiring daily service even if they have to drive a short way to get it.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Well, is gettting on strike really useful anymore ? When you got on strike to get more than 10% income increase, you could bet on a month or two on strike to be useful. Now that you can just ask for 1-2 %, it would take many years to overcome what you have lost.

Rotating strike, a day at a time, probably will not cut worker's net income much, and the impact on the common population is minimal at best : Most of us receive bills and pay them electronically and I can wait a few days more for my imported songbooks...

In fact, these strikes could harm commercial clients, and as I understand it, it is the actual target : how much commercial clients Canada Post is ready to lose ?

Canada Post is not the cheapest carrier, but it would not simply leave parcels at your door...


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mawmow said:


> Canada Post is not the cheapest carrier, but it would not simply leave parcels at your door...


This is how Canada Post delivers virtually all of the parcels arriving at our home.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2018)

Union execs still get their full paycheck while telling the members to 'keep up the pressure'.


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## brucew (Dec 30, 2017)

You need to be careful what you wish for with privatizing a gov't entity. Problem is all the baggage and dead weight that's attatched.

Only real way to do it is just announce a complete shutdown and issue pink slips across the spectrum for a specified future date. Private industry would then come up with a working, profitable, reliable replacement to fill the created void.
(pretend greyhound in SK was a gov't entity; they announced a quit date, numerous smaller operators are in place eagerly awaiting the opportunity created)
When gov't says, "privatized", they mostly seem to mean the bureaucracy behind it stays right where it is sucking the taxpayers teat while the, "new owner" pays all the front line workers and for the working infrastructure without owning the hard assets. Yes, the new owner may be profitable, but the taxpayer/consumer has effectively gained nothing.

I remember when they first talked about, "privatizing" Cn post. I immediately contacted canpost and wanted to purchase the local p.o. Was told that's not how it works, their definition of privatized was not what you would think.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

If you want to see what postal service would be like if it is left to market forces have a look at how internet services are rolled out across Canada. You will soon see a huge rural/urban divide emerge.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

brucew said:


> You need to be careful what you wish for with privatizing a gov't entity. Problem is all the baggage and dead weight that's attatched.
> 
> Only real way to do it is just announce a complete shutdown and issue pink slips across the spectrum for a specified future date. Private industry would then come up with a working, profitable, reliable replacement to fill the created void.
> (pretend greyhound in SK was a gov't entity; they announced a quit date, numerous smaller operators are in place eagerly awaiting the opportunity created)
> ...


Greyhound is a good example of what kind of service that you could expect with a private entity.
Shut down rural, low/no profit routes. You won't pay any less for the services either.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

I'm all for cutting waste in government/civil service, but I don't think of Canada Post that way. They are an essential service, not on the same level as say health care, but essential none the less.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

troyhead said:


> @keto Your points make a lot of sense. I think the rotating strikes are showing that, in most cases, slow mail delivery & pickup is about as good as the regular service. In order to serve those rural people for the long run, consistent but reduced frequency service would probably suit everyone just as well..... And my point from above was that Canada Post should focus on making regular mail delivery at least somewhat sustainable in the long run by decreasing its frequency, rather than counting on the parcel business that could disappear in an instant.


Probably. Of course, one of the regular sticking points with the union is job security. And reduced frequency-of-service would only reduced costs if it also entailed staff cuts. And I think we both know the union would not yield on that. I'm not saying they are right; just that this is one of their traditional hills to die on.



> As for the urban/rural salaries, I guess the simple solution makes some sense. Or, as you suggested, having it float with some kind of cost of living index. However, just making rural & urban salaries the same doesn’t make much sense to me.


I suspect the simplistic gap between urban and rural compensation levels exists because calibrating compensation to local-cost-of-living becomes a herculean task when a service is provided across a country this large and geographically diverse, and near impossible in a world of moving targets. Having worked for a while in the area of "equal pay for work of equal value", I understand why it is important to people, but I also understand how difficult a measurement task it can be. Some rudimentary attempt to balance off rural-vs-urban pay in some fairer manner may well be the only viable solution that doesn't involve a team of 50 economists working night and day. "Fairer manner" needn't mean _identical_, but if the existing gap is not defensible, then closing it a bit would be good.

Whoever the negotiators are for the corporation, it might be good for them to spend a day or two in the saddle with a rural prairie employee, just to get a better handle on what working outside of the GTA entails. I used to work on the same floor as the negotiators for Treasury Board. All decent, fair-minded people, but they are simply working with the numbers, and the budgetary marching orders, rather than any sense of what the work of those bargaining groups they are negotiating with might entail. I don't suggest that it would lead them to give in easily. Indeed, having a more realistic sense of the actual work might even give them more ammunition regarding what NOT to yield on.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I guess that my earlier statement went unoticed, they settled the rural worker issue in September...

Canada Post rural workers to get hefty pay increase, arbitrator rules

That _not_ one of the reasons that they went out on strike.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Thanks for that. At least that part is settled.


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## Guest (Nov 3, 2018)

I ordered something from Richmond Hill Ontario the other day. Tracking shows it to be all on track for a regular delivery.


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## brucew (Dec 30, 2017)

sulphur said:


> Greyhound is a good example of what kind of service that you could expect with a private entity.
> Shut down rural, low/no profit routes. You won't pay any less for the services either.


That Is a good example. No co. can maintain a constant loss. With greyhound shutting down running large busses on rural routes with little to no demand companies have started up running small busses like vans in places where there IS any demand for the service, for much less then greyhound was charging I might add. Perhaps it's 2 or 3 times/wk but it's sufficient demand for the service to operate; no different than airlines.
The places where there was no demand still has no demand.....no one has noticed a difference.

Far as comparing to the post office I thought these banks of boxes replaced the non profitable po's yrs ago?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

We often forget, at our peril sometimes, that Canada is a VERY large country, with huge variation in population density. One really has to drive across it to have a sense of how hard it can be to forge policy and business plans that work well from coast to coast to coast.

The super mailboxes did replace regular mailslots in many places a few years ago, but the current government stepped on the brakes. They promised to reverse that change, but only got as far as blocking installation of more of them, and not changing anything back. Some places, like apartments or new townhouse developments, are destined to have a centralized dropoff place. Places where homes are more spread out can run into difficulties identifying a single "best" place, even though delivery to every single home can be a big deal and costly. One wonders if compromises like superbox on Friday and Monday deliveries, but roadside boxes on Tuesday to Thursday are feasible or advisable.

I'm one of a small squad of people who volunteer to deliver the local community association newsletter. We have three superboxes on our street. They do not permit sliding the newsletter into each box, so I have to hand-deliver them to every residence. Most still have an actual mailbox at their front door. But every time ownership of a house changes, there is no guarantee that the previous owner's mailbox will remain. So I have to figure out a way to leave the newsletter so it doesn't get blown away. A small problem, admittedly.


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

Canada Post has become redundant. Mail is dead. Junk mail is a blight on the planet. Focus on packages.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

I just want to jump in to clear a common misconception that I've seen regarding Canada Post. Canada Post is not funded by the taxpayer. Hasn't been for nearly 40 years. It's a crown corporation, meaning it is run by government but not funded by it. It uses its own revenue to operate, just like any other business. Since they shifted their focus away from lettermail and towards parcel carrying (roughly 8 years ago), they have been a VERY profitable business, earning *nearly half a billion dollars* (net profit) over the last 7 years.

Regarding CP vs other couriers... When shipping Canada-to-Canada, Canada Post is almost always the cheapest option for single parcel shipments. They have the most robust infrastructure in Canada, reaching essentially everywhere there is a residence, no matter how remote. Something other couriers struggle to do, and must charge substantially higher in order to accomplish. Often, other couriers will hand the parcels off to Canada Post for final delivery for many rural/remote deliveries.

If you run a volume-based commercial business and negotiate special rates you can "shop around" to the different couriers, but every other courier will tell you up front they will not come close to Canada Post's domestic rates (except to major city centers). The only real savings come from other couriers when shipping out of the country. I guess also the fact that their service is more reliable because other couriers won't have strikes/lockouts every few years like Canada Post does.

Regarding where the strike will "strike", Canada Post has an update page where they post about affected areas:
Canada Post – Updates


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

jbealsmusic said:


> Canada Post is not funded by the taxpayer. Hasn't been for nearly 40 years. It's a crown corporation, meaning it is run by government but not funded by it. It uses its own revenue to operate, just like any other business. Since they shifted their focus away from lettermail and towards parcel carrying (roughly 8 years ago), they have been a VERY profitable business, earning *nearly half a billion dollars* (net after tax profit) over the last 7 years.


Yes, they are profitable, although I think your numbers might be a bit inflated (their site lists their profit before taxes as $74 million last year). However, they are profitable *today* but probably would not be if Amazon, who is frequently cited as their largest customer by far, no longer used Canada Post. It seems very likely that at some point Amazon will choose to deliver their own parcels in many urban centres, leaving just a fraction for Canada Post to deliver.

Obviously, Amazon is not their only parcels customer, and that portion of the business would probably continue to be profitable. But it won't be as profitable as it is now, perhaps not enough to cover losses in the lettermail department. They need to get both parts of the business making money, because the parcels gravy train that is primarily fuelled by Amazon is not going to last forever.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

jbealsmusic said:


> they have been a VERY profitable business, earning *nearly half a billion dollars* (net after tax profit) over the last 7 years.





troyhead said:


> Yes, they are profitable, although I think your numbers might be a bit inflated (their site lists their profit before taxes as $74 million last year).


I think I have found the source of confusion here. Canada Post Group of Companies owns Canada Post, as well as a few other companies. Purolator, for example, made $120 million on its own last year.

It is interesting to note that just the Canada Post segment earned $74 million in profit before taxes last year, but they had over $6.4 billion in revenue. Their operating margin is only 1.15%, meaning it wouldn't take much for that segment to no longer be profitable.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

I don't know much about the politics of all this. It seems that Canada Post see's Black Friday/Cyber Monday and the weed shipping thing coinciding as a chance to gain some leverage. Which is a mistake because no one really cares how their items arrive as long as they arrive by a guaranteed date and in one piece. And a these huge companies won't take that kind of crap, they will just use other services. Some lucky events have happened, and some emerging technologies have given Canada Post a second chance and they are taking the worst course of action they could take. 

I do web design and have several clients with commerce based sites. They all switched away from Canada Post in the last month. They dealt with a threatened strike awhile back, and this strike was the straw that broke the camels back for them. Most of them have started using companies that are sort of like a shipping broker and find them the best and quickest rates (like this Canadian Shipping Company | Courier and Freight | eShipper Canada).

I had Amazon miss a shipping delivery date by a fair amount on a Prime item because of Canada Post last week. They not only refunded my order after I went to customer support, they gave me a fairly large credit on my next order. I'd venture to guess this is happening a lot. Pissing off these large companies like Amazon doesn't seem like a great idea.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

torndownunit said:


> I had Amazon miss a shipping delivery date by a fair amount on a Prime item because of Canada Post last week. They not only refunded my order after I went to customer support, they gave me a fairly large credit on my next order. I'd venture to guess this is happening a lot. Pissing off these large companies like Amazon doesn't seem like a great idea.


I'm a Prime customer and ordered something on Saturday that was delivered on Sunday! So far, the Canada Post strike is actually working out to my benefit, as normally that would not have shipped until Monday and then arrived on Tuesday or Wednesday! I kind of hope they stick with the new courier.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

troyhead said:


> I'm a Prime customer and ordered something on Saturday that was delivered on Sunday! So far, the Canada Post strike is actually working out to my benefit, as normally that would not have shipped until Monday and then arrived on Tuesday or Wednesday! I kind of hope they stick with the new courier.


I get a fair amount of shipments, and things have been all over the map. After that mess up, I ordered the exact same item yesterday using the discount they gave me, and now it's supposed to arrive tomorrow. I'd venture to guess they won't be sending it Canada post this time.


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## Guest (Nov 27, 2018)

New Canpost delivery 



__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1891011244361329


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

@laristotle are we in the Harry Potter universe? I mean, I'm for it.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Back to work legislation received royal assent this evening. Mail resumes tomorrow. Anybody's guess when the backlog gets cleared up.

Once upon a time, the complaint about infringing on the charter right to collective bargaining held water. Unfortunately, the contemporary strike strategy is to cause as much inconvenience to as many stakeholders as possible, instead of simply withdrawing services from the employer. If it was March or June, or if it was 8 years ago, I'd say "Charter right your brains out, folks". But striking at this time - even rotating strikes- have come to have a much greater impact on more businesses than simply Canada Post, because of the shift towards on-line shopping and parcel delivery. The strike was not just interfering with Canada post, it was interfering with small businesses who had nothing to do with the labour dispute. I'm pleased that the senators recognized this and did the right thing.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I am pretty sure they will "work to rule" and not fast either.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I got a package today from Next Gen that I ordered on Nov 22. This is the 26th. I figure 4 days is pretty dam good from Ottawa to the Edmonton area. It must have missed all the rotating strikes.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I have not seen a piece of mail in over 2 weeks. I had to guess most of my bills this month.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Personally my experiences with Canada Post have been positive.

I think they do a great job when they aren’t holding the nation at gun point.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Lincoln said:


> I got a package today from Next Gen that I ordered on Nov 22. This is the 26th. I figure 4 days is pretty dam good from Ottawa to the Edmonton area. It must have missed all the rotating strikes.


I think Jon has a rubber stamp that says "This is for a musician. Please hurry."


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I am pretty sure they will "work to rule" and not fast either.


Some will, others wont.... they're people too, and Christmas overtime is important to a lot of families. I'm torn about the whole thing honestly... I mean I'm on parental leave and the only reason that exists is because of a CUPW strike in the 80s... but in the 80s mail was just mail, I mean some businesses depended on it but not like today. I just think there could be q better mechanism to resolve issues. The PD and FD here waived their right to strike years ago in exchange for binding arbitration if agreements cant be made and it's worked out well for them. A local cop or firefighter makes north of 6 figures in Halifax.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

A lot of the stress experienced by CP employees seems to come from the increase in parcels they need to handle on a daily basis. The increase in parcel shipments has saved CP from financial disaster, so it is in everyone's best interest to work to find the way towards the "new normal".

Manufacturers and retailers can do better, as well. The mass merchants really need to tighten up the carton sizing when shipping. I received a shipment of two microphone capsules yesterday from the US. They are the diameter of a dime and about as thick as a couple of Grandma's oatcakes. The manufacturer choose a nicely sized metal box about the size of an engagement ring case. The package they came in? A ridiculously oversized carton about the size of two shoe boxes, stuffed with environmentally unfriendly plastic air bags. The box weighed a few ounces, but took up a lot of cubic space. Think of the impact this over sizing has on a logistics system.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ronmac said:


> A lot of the stress experienced by CP employees seems to come from the increase in parcels they need to handle on a daily basis. The increase in parcel shipments has saved CP from financial disaster, so it is in everyone's best interest to work to find the way towards the "new normal".
> 
> Manufacturers and retailers can do better, as well. The mass merchants really need to tighten up the carton sizing when shipping. I received a shipment of two microphone capsules yesterday from the US. They are the diameter of a dime and about as thick as a couple of Grandma's oatcakes. The manufacturer choose a nicely sized metal box about the size of an engagement ring case. The package they came in? A ridiculously oversized carton about the size of two shoe boxes, stuffed with environmentally unfriendly plastic air bags. The box weighed a few ounces, but took up a lot of cubic space. Think of the impact this over sizing has on a logistics system.


If you want to see wasteful and expensive packaging, order a few grams of weed from OCS.

3.5 grams in a container that could easily contain an ounce or more. The box was around 8" X 8" X 8". Talk about shipping air.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

ronmac said:


> Manufacturers and retailers can do better, as well. The mass merchants really need to tighten up the carton sizing when shipping. I received a shipment of two microphone capsules yesterday from the US. They are the diameter of a dime and about as thick as a couple of Grandma's oatcakes. The manufacturer choose a nicely sized metal box about the size of an engagement ring case. The package they came in? A ridiculously oversized carton about the size of two shoe boxes, stuffed with environmentally unfriendly plastic air bags. The box weighed a few ounces, but took up a lot of cubic space. Think of the impact this over sizing has on a logistics system.





Milkman said:


> 3.5 grams in a container that could easily contain an ounce or more. The box was around 8" X 8" X 8". Talk about shipping air.


There is a delicate balance for the manufacturer/distributor/retailer when it comes to packaging orders. There is also a lot more to it than people realize.

Like many things, you get a better price based on volume. Using @Milkman 's example, if the overwhelming majority of orders from OCS ideally fit into that 8x8x8 box, it actually becomes much cheaper for OCS (and in turn, their customers) to ship all orders that small and smaller into that box. A box 1/4 the size may save a few dimes in shipping cost. Getting thousands of 8x8x8 boxes at discount saves much more, which translates to lower business costs and cheaper shipping costs to the consumer. Not to mention, the more streamlined your packing procedures (same box size, same filler, etc.), the faster orders can be packed. Considering the cost of labour is the biggest expense in the chain, that is a key factor. The more the employee has to stand there thinking of what box to use, then what filler (and how much), the less parcels they can pack in a day. Efficiency is key to keeping costs low.

I know, how long does it take to do that? Perhaps 1 minute per order, which doesn't seem like much. But, do that for 60 parcels in day? You've just eliminated one hour of productivity. If you pay your employee $15 an hour (which translates to roughly $20 of actual cost to the employer), that's $0.33 per minute. If you can get one more hour worth of packing into the same length of shift by using one box size (eliminating employee hesitation), you save not only on box costs by buying in volume but on labour as well. Those reduced costs saves the company (and in turn, their customers) money.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Well. Just received an email from Canada post stating that my order from Next Gen that was scheduled for delivery today won't happen due to Union problems !!!... 

Being advised with an email is appreciated though !


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

That may be one of the packages Jon forgot to stamp. Or maybe the CP employee neglected to rotate the package to actually SEE the stamp.

You'll just have to apply the stamp to all sides of the box, Jon!


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

jbealsmusic said:


> There is a delicate balance for the manufacturer/distributor/retailer when it comes to packaging orders. There is also a lot more to it than people realize.very package was
> 
> Like many things, you get a better price based on volume. Using @Milkman 's example, if the overwhelming majority of orders from OCS ideally fit into that 8x8x8 box, it actually becomes much cheaper for OCS (and in turn, their customers) to ship all orders that small and smaller into that box. A box 1/4 the size may save a few dimes in shipping cost. Getting thousands of 8x8x8 boxes at discount saves much more, which translates to lower business costs and cheaper shipping costs to the consumer. Not to mention, the more streamlined your packing procedures (same box size, same filler, etc.), the faster orders can be packed. Considering the cost of labour is the biggest expense in the chain, that is a key factor. The more the employee has to stand there thinking of what box to use, then what filler (and how much), the less parcels they can pack in a day. Efficiency is key to keeping costs low.
> 
> I know, how long does it take to do that? Perhaps 1 minute per order, which doesn't seem like much. But, do that for 60 parcels in day? You've just eliminated one hour of productivity. If you pay your employee $15 an hour (which translates to roughly $20 of actual cost to the employer), that's $0.33 per minute. If you can get one more hour worth of packing into the same length of shift by using one box size (eliminating employee hesitation), you save not only on box costs by buying in volume but on labour as well. Those reduced costs saves the company (and in turn, their customers) money.


I understand your reasoning, but I don't support the logic of it. I paid a shipping fee based on the size and weight of the packaging. Most shipping companies work on the "cubed weight" system where the size of the package is the most significant factor. It is reasonable that a company wants to keep their inventory costs down, and I understand that some of that cost saving is beneficial to the customer. But what my reply was really about was the trickle down/up costs these decisions mean to everyone along the way.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Parcels can't really be delivered by the posties walking door-to-door. Remember that Harper was shutting down door-to-door and Trudeau nixed it. Any parcels I have delivered come in a van or a truck - quite often a beat-up one being driven by a subcontracted service.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

ronmac said:


> I understand your reasoning, but I don't support the logic of it. I paid a shipping fee based on the size and weight of the packaging. Most shipping companies work on the "cubed weight" system where the size of the package is the most significant factor. It is reasonable that a company wants to keep their inventory costs down, and I understand that some of that cost saving is beneficial to the customer. But what my reply was really about was the trickle down/up costs these decisions mean to everyone along the way.


Yeah, sorry I got carried away on the tangent and missed your final point, "Think of the impact this over sizing has on a logistics system."

To that point, there are the three main things I see it impacting:
1) Carrier Costs - If too many large parcels that are half empty is causing a logistics problem, carriers need to charge a higher premium on dimensional weight. Something that will undoubtedly happen, if the problem persists.

2) Environmental Costs - Contrary to our intuition, numerous environmental analysts have determined that eCommerce is actually more environmentally friendly (as it currently is, oversized boxes and all), concluding that the average consumer can reduce their carbon footprint by ordering more products online rather than driving to each store (assuming they're bundling orders and getting regular shipping.) I'd rather be cautiously optimistic and say that it is about equal, but certainly not worse. That said, the environmental payoff is getting more true all the time as carriers across the board are converting their fleets to more highly fuel efficient vehicles and environmentally friendly filler material is coming down in cost.

3) Business/Consumer Cost - Covered briefly in my other post. The two go hand in hand. The cost of the box, filler, and the cost of labour is always paid for by the customer (whether the customer is aware of it or not.) If the business can reduce those costs (by reducing the cost of shipping or the cost of boxes/filler/labour), it reduces the cost to the customer. Win-Win!


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

One thing that really gets me: CP workers are getting grilled as the heathens about to kill Christmas by the majority of this country, and the CUPW is doing so very little to present a counter argument, in defence of their members, to the public. 

I'd be pissed if my union hung me out to dry like that. Their members have legitimate concerns to be sorted, and the public isn't getting to see that. 

When we had the big NSTU Work To Rule fiasco a few years back, or the NSGEU Nurses strike action their unions went on a full out media assault against the government to draw empathy from the public to their cause.


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

Agreed cbout. They figured holding the countrys mail hostage at Christmas is a great idea and it could only backfire. I suppose they may get the $1000 bonus...

At least the government isn't trying to sell off Canada post to CGI as suggested in the Harper era. Or that we know of. The same company who they outsourced tens of thousands of government jobs during his era, who his wife was invested heavily, and was Co chaired by GG. David Johnston. I guess Trudeau is a long time friend of Mr Johnston, so who knows what is still in store. 

Don't know how that want picked up in the media.. 

Sent from my H3223 using Tapatalk


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## AlBDarned (Jun 29, 2017)

Don't sit by the door waiting just yet...

From Global News:

*Canada Post experiencing ‘unprecedented backlogs,’ some parcels won’t arrive until January or March*

The rotating job action at Canada Post is over.

But you may still face disappointment if you’re waiting on that special delivery

The post office says the backlog is so bad, parcel deliveries will be “delayed during the peak holiday season and into January 2019.”

If you’re waiting on an international package, “delays are likely to stretch into March of 2019.”

This will only get worse after a frenetic weekend of online shopping from Black Friday to Cyber Monday.

In a statement, Canada Post said it’s now working to stabilize operations with a manageable approach across the country but there are hundreds of trailers currently waiting to be unloaded.

And many delivery depots are at capacity and temporarily unable to receive more items from processing plants.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

These ongoing actions every few years or so are seriously damaging the image / impressions the general public has of postal workers.

As I've said, when they're on the job, I think they do a good job in general, but I'm sick to death of this crap and it is costing me money and impacting me in terms of late receipts of important packages.

I don't appreciate being caught in the cross fire.

I googled USPS postal strikes and the only entry I could find related to a strike in 1970.

How many have we had?


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Well, it took a week to receive it but finally got my order from Next Gen !

Great packaging and service from Next Gen as usual ! thumbs up ! 

Canada Post sucks !  One weeks from Ottawa to Montreal..... *#*(


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

The last time there was a strike at the US Post office, the Army stepped in to do the work


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

through rain, or sleet, or snow .................................


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

I got a letter from within AB today sent Fri, and another from Thur, so honest, out west it’s flowing. Packages I’m not sure, my wife and daughter got a combined 7 in the mail today lol, I have no clue how long those have been in the system.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

*My two cents*: 

I owned a publication with a monthly circulation of just under 10,500. 

I would spend an entire day bringing the copies to the postal building, organizing into the various postal codes and filling out paperwork. I had a contract with Canada Post; my lawyer told me that all the obligations were on me, and in fact, Canada Post did not have to guarantee even a single delivery. 

A private contractor was always wooing me to give the business to him. I finally relented and let him take it over. He picked up the copies at the press, organized all the delivery, and cut my cost in half. I did nothing. 

As far as I'm concerned, there are only two things wrong with Canada Post: the labour and the management.

Sorry.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I got another Next Gen package today. This one was ordered on Nov 27, arrived Dec 3rd. 6 days from Ottawa to the Edmonton area. Still pretty dam good I figure.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Lincoln said:


> I got another Next Gen package today. This one was ordered on Nov 27, arrived Dec 3rd. 6 days from Ottawa to the Edmonton area. Still pretty dam good I figure.



Rub it in !!!


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

So this belly-aching will go into March? Yay!


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