# Tenors Disgrace



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

How about these bozos at the MLB all star game last night.

What an embarrassment.

Tenors change O Canada's lyrics


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## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

How disrespectful to change the National anthem!


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

They are blaming the one dude, but they all sang it so they are all to blame. Disgraceful


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Lord-Humongous said:


> How disrespectful to change the National anthem!


I agree, wholeheartedly.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> They are blaming the one dude, but they all sang it so they are all to blame. Disgraceful


It did seem like only the one guy (not even Canadian) inserted the changed lyrics during his solo section. The others rejoined in harmony after that.

What an A-hole.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Sickening. How dare they? Regardless of who instigated the change, they all CHOSE to go along with the entirely disrespectful agenda. I can't think of a strong enough word to describe the insult.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Never mind that the tempo was dragging and the harmonies were shaky, the judgement to change the lyrics was ill-advisedly pompous and arrogant, and in questionable taste. There are some things you just don't do, like pissing in the wind.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Milkman said:


> It did seem like only the one guy (not even Canadian) inserted the changed lyrics during his solo section. The others rejoined in harmony after that.
> 
> What an A-hole.


From what I heard the harmony section right after his bastardization resolved back to the original french lyrics. I'll need to listen again though, if i can force myself to.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

davetcan said:


> From what I heard the harmony section right after his bastardization resolved back to the original french lyrics. I'll need to listen again though, if i can force myself to.


Yes, I just listened. I can't say for sure they didn't know he was going to do it, but he was the only one who changed the lyrics.

This could impact their career as a group.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Milkman said:


> This could impact their career as a group.


A sort of Dixie Chicks moment except the DC didn't deserve the backlash.


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

The original Canadian anthem was written in French with no English whatsoever. Most places in Canada sings it in all English. That's also a disgrace.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I think entertainers and sports teams should stay out of politics. 

Black Lives Matter T-shirts spur cops' walkout at Minnesota Lynx game - CNN.com


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Jamdog said:


> The original Canadian anthem was written in French with no English whatsoever. Most places in Canada sings it in all English. That's also a disgrace.


They've made changes before if memory serves (slim chance but...).

When I was a boy, I don't remember "god keep our land" but that may be selective amnesia.

When I sing it these days, even though it leaves a bad taste in my mouth to say those words, I still pay the anthem the respect it deserves by singing them, and I always sing them in French and English.

In fact, I and my family can sing the entire anthem in either French or English.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2016)

Milkman said:


> When I was a boy, I don't remember "god keep our land" but that may be selective amnesia.


You're correct. IIRC, it was 'Oh Canada, glorious and free'.
Replaced with 'god keep our land, glorious and free'.


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

Here is the original full lyrics. I really love how it embodies true Canadian spirit in its glory as it once was. 

The pride in these men to think that such liberties can be taken is a testament to the arrogance and pride in society in this era. Behaving as if above reproach. And in public!!! I'll bet a behringer pedal they they didn't ask permission or think twice about kicking the nation on the nutz in this way. 

A great read about our nations national anthems and then the selection of the official one. “O Canada”

Original French Lyrics by Adolphe-Basile Routhier, 1880 

O Canada! Terre de nos aïeux,
Ton front est ceint de fleurons glorieux!
Car ton bras sait porter l'épée,
Il sait porter la croix! 

Ton histoire est une épopée
Des plus brillants exploits.
Et ta valeur, de foi trempe, 

Protègera nos foyers et nos droits.
Protègera nos foyers et nos droits. 

Verses additionnel: 

Sous l'oeil de Dieu, près du fleuve géant,
Le Canadien grandit en espérant.
Il est d'une race fière,
Béni fut son berceau.
Le ciel a marqué sa carrure
Dans ce monde nouveau.
Toujours guidé par sa lumière,
Il gardera l'honneur de son drapeau,
Il gardera l'honneur de son drapeau. 

De son patron, précurseur du vrai Dieu,
Il porte au front l'auréole de feu.
Ennemi de la tyrannie Mais plein de loyauté.
Il veut garder dans l'harmonie,
Sa fière liberté;
Et par l'effort de son génie,
Sur notre sol asseoir la vérité.
Sur notre sol asseoir la vérité. 

Amour sacré du trône et de l'autel,
Remplis nos cœurs de ton souffle immortel!
Parmi les races étrangères,
Notre guide est la loi;
Sachons être un peuple de frères,
Sous le joug de la foi.
Et répétons, comme nos pères
Le cri vainqueur: Pour le Christ et le roi,
Le cri vainqueur: Pour le Christ et le roi.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Officially changed lyrics are one thing, but this is another.

Though I don't approve, I was always amused by the version, "Oh Canada, our homes on native land...", but I wouldn't have it sung in public.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I'm not offended or affronted by impromptu lyric changes to a national anthem, per se. But when you're singing it in front of millions of people who are less familiar with it because it's not theirs, you need to be particularly mindful of: a) unintentionally misrepresenting the lyrics to those who might think those are the real lyrics, and b) conveying a message that is acceptable to all listening in.

If someone wants to change the lyrics to Oh Canada at a local little league game, just to rib the opposing team, that's one thing. A televised MLB all-star game is a wholly different matter.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Mooh said:


> Officially changed lyrics are one thing, but this is another.
> 
> Though I don't approve, I was always amused by the version, "Oh Canada, our homes on native land...", but I wouldn't have it sung in public.


They could have slid that in and few would have noticed.

Maybe monitoring was poor, because their harmonies were pretty underwhelming, a little out of tune.


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

I don't care at all anymore. They keep changing the words to our national anthems and patriotic songs to make them politically correct. I don't sing them anymore. I just stand.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

The other three are throwing the rogue under the bus. Probably accurate, but really, how tight are they if he can go rogue like that and they had no idea. He must be kinda political in his day-to-day speaking, no? 

Either way, I'm burning all my Tenors discs. Oh wait, I don't have any. TBH, this is probably the peak of their fame - they'll go back to complete obscurity following this bump. And I doubt they'll get invited to sing an anthem again.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Jamdog said:


> The original Canadian anthem was written in French with no English whatsoever. Most places in Canada sings it in all English. That's also a disgrace.


Just curious as to why you think singing it in English is a disgrace. Most places in Canada don't speak French, why would they sing it in a language they don't know? Just curious, not trying to start something.


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

TA462 said:


> Just curious as to why you think singing it in English is a disgrace. Most places in Canada don't speak French, why would they sing it in a language they don't know? Just curious, not trying to start something.


Because it was written in French. Removing all the French from it makes it something that it is not. The official anthem in bilingual, the original anthem is French, the English one is just a fraud. 

Do you know French is one of two official languages in the country? Blaming ignorance of a language to permit bastardisation when that specific language should be learned in the first place makes little sense.

The oh Canada is a French song. It's author never intended it to be translated. Signing it in English is an insult to the memory of Adolphe-Basile Routhier.


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## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

Someone insert the popcorn gif quick, this one's about to go sideways.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

O Canada - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Jamdog said:


> Because it was written in French. Removing all the French from it makes it something that it is not. The official anthem in bilingual, the original anthem is French, the English one is just a fraud.
> 
> Do you know French is one of two official languages in the country? Blaming ignorance of a language to permit bastardisation when that specific language should be learned in the first place makes little sense.
> 
> The oh Canada is a French song. It's author never intended it to be translated. Signing it in English is an insult to the memory of Adolphe-Basile Routhier.


baloney, nobody intends any disrespect to the author, the language, or the French.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I find it amusing and ironic that a song written for La fête nationale is probably one of the last songs many Québecois would consider singing on that day.

On a less tongue-in-cheek note, I used to attend concerts of "new music" put on by the Societé de Musique Contemporain at a large hall on the U of M campus that was, IIRC, on a street named for Calixa Lavallée. I doubt that he would have considered what was performed at those shows to be "music".


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

keto said:


> baloney, nobody intends any disrespect to the author, the language, or the French.


How about if we sing it in Chinese?

French and English are the two official languages of Canada.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2016)

Hand out kazoos at all future events?


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

there's a bird I hear all the time while walking in the forest. It's song is the first 3 notes of O Canada. Sometimes I swear these birds hit the 4th note too.
Every time I hear this bird's call I wonder if that's where the melody began or was built upon. 

No drugs involved, this is real sh1t.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

They either couldn't hear themselves or each other very well, because those harmonies were pretty loose. I get that changing the lyrics could be offensive, but can someone explain why saying "all lives matter" is somehow a racist comment? It seems like the least racist thing a person could say.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

jbealsmusic said:


> They either couldn't hear themselves or each other very well, because those harmonies were pretty loose. I get that changing the lyrics could be offensive, but can someone explain why saying "all lives matter" is somehow a racist comment? It seems like the least racist thing a person could say.


Its apparently the counter movement to the Black Lives Matter campaign.


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

Disgracist is my newly coined term for this kerfuffle. I don't know why, I just thought of it and felt like I should write it. 

Its more of a disgrace than racist. What comes to the front of my mind when Black lives matter protest is All lives matter. So wouldnt the BLM movement be racist? Maybe its too soon for that. Im sure blacks get the short end of the stick a lot of the time but cops give everybody a hard time, I have been there. Though i've never been shot at. The movement should be more inclusive of all lives as it would build more momentum and Im sure there are natives in canada and usa who would like to protest their treatment by police as well. 

And those harmonies


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

OK....whats more insulting to Canadians .....
One idiot Tenor changing the words to our National Anthem to further his own personal agenda
OR
the fact that the American networks went to commercial during our National Anthem.

hmmmmmmmmmmm..... 
G.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Well, didn't watch the game, but this is all over the internet. Bottom line is they had one job, they didn't do it right.


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

It was the most exciting thing that happened the whole broadcast.


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## vokey design (Oct 24, 2006)

I actually turned the tv off.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Lord-Humongous said:


> Someone insert the popcorn gif quick, this one's about to go sideways.


I'm staying out of it


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

Well we know it was just one person who sang that the rest stopped at that point until he got back on track and I have no problem with entertainers voice a political view. 
But it should have been done after they finished the national anthem of any country and now I just heard he is having to apply for EI just lost his job and going to commercials during our anthem well you can only blame the network provider as all Canadian channels are interupted by your local cable provider. ship


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I am quite sure no one died or even got sick. People get upset so easily these days.


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## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

Jamdog said:


> Because it was written in French. Removing all the French from it makes it something that it is not. The official anthem in bilingual, the original anthem is French, the English one is just a fraud.
> 
> Do you know French is one of two official languages in the country? Blaming ignorance of a language to permit bastardisation when that specific language should be learned in the first place makes little sense.
> 
> The oh Canada is a French song. It's author never intended it to be translated. Signing it in English is an insult to the memory of Adolphe-Basile Routhier.


Well, in that case we could revert to different anthems for French & English Canada. I always liked The Maple Leaf Forever.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

I didn't watch the game, and I don't know the lyrics of the Canadian National Anthem (well, I know the first two).

But I know how I would feel if someone changed the lyrics of our National Anthem. 

Some things are sacrosanct...


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## GuitarT (Nov 23, 2010)

Jamdog said:


> Because it was written in French. Removing all the French from it makes it something that it is not. The official anthem in bilingual, the original anthem is French, the English one is just a fraud.
> 
> Do you know French is one of two official languages in the country? Blaming ignorance of a language to permit bastardisation when that specific language should be learned in the first place makes little sense.
> 
> The oh Canada is a French song. It's author never intended it to be translated. Signing it in English is an insult to the memory of Adolphe-Basile Routhier.


 The rest of Canada is still waiting for Quebec to adopt English as an official language. Sorry, can't have it both ways. The fact is the vast majority of Canada is non french speaking. I understand the importance of the french language in Quebec but the fact is it means nothing to the history or culture of a large part of the country.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Lord-Humongous said:


> Someone insert the popcorn gif quick, this one's about to go sideways.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Milkman said:


> How about these bozos at the MLB all star game last night.
> 
> What an embarrassment.
> 
> Tenors change O Canada's lyrics



In fairness, it was only one of them.


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## leftysg (Mar 29, 2008)

Lincoln said:


> there's a bird I hear all the time while walking in the forest. It's song is the first 3 notes of O Canada. Sometimes I swear these birds hit the 4th note too.
> Every time I hear this bird's call I wonder if that's where the melody began or was built upon.
> 
> No drugs involved, this is real sh1t.


Makes me worry that our anthem might be the first three notes of a cuckoo, but at least dodos are extinct!


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Jamdog said:


> Because it was written in French. Removing all the French from it makes it something that it is not. The official anthem in bilingual, the original anthem is French, the English one is just a fraud.
> 
> Do you know French is one of two official languages in the country? Blaming ignorance of a language to permit bastardisation when that specific language should be learned in the first place makes little sense.
> 
> The oh Canada is a French song. It's author never intended it to be translated. Signing it in English is an insult to the memory of Adolphe-Basile Routhier.


The french version was not written as an "anthem" for any country. It was written for a french holiday in Quebec. As far as 'learning' french. I had to take it from gr. 7 to gr. 12. No choice. 
@Lincoln the bird is the White-throated Sparrow.


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

GuitarT said:


> The rest of Canada is still waiting for Quebec to adopt English as an official language. Sorry, can't have it both ways. The fact is the vast majority of Canada is non french speaking. I understand the importance of the french language in Quebec but the fact is it means nothing to the history or culture of a large part of the country.


Do you learn anything in history in school? 

French was spoken in Canada way before English. 

If you think you can blame Quebec for speaking French when all of the rest of Canada refuses to speak it you are just delusional.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Jamdog said:


> Do you learn anything in history in school?
> 
> French was spoken in Canada way before English.
> 
> If you think you can blame Quebec for speaking French when all of the rest of Canada refuses to speak it you are just delusional.


It's debatable what language was spoken first aside from various native languages. From what I was taught in school the Brits defeated the French. Quebec became a province in a mostly English speaking country. There is no law that says that I have to speak french....except maybe in Quebec. Not sure about that.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

GTmaker said:


> OK....whats more insulting to Canadians .....
> One idiot Tenor changing the words to our National Anthem to further his own personal agenda
> OR
> the fact that the American networks went to commercial during our National Anthem.
> ...



Considering what was done to the anthem I am kind of glad it wasn't broadcast.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Jamdog said:


> Do you learn anything in history in school?
> 
> French was spoken in Canada way before English.



Actually it wasn't.

Of the Europeans, the Norsemen were here first. Then came an Italian explorer (Cabot) sailing for the English king (Henry VII). Because he was sailing for the English king, and sailed out of Bristol, he had an English crew (with some possibly coming from other areas of Britain). Cabot claimed the Atlantic coast for Henry VII. 

Portuguese sailors later established seasonal outposts in eastern Canada but only did so for a couple of years so I don't know if we should bother including them.

After that came Cartier who explored the St. Lawrence and claimed the area for the French king. Settlements were established but they didn't last long and weren't repeated in subsequent seasons so cannot be considered seasonal. He did christen the area Canada (technically, the Colony of Canada).

Just under 50 years later Sir Humphrey Gilbert founded St. John's Newfoundland as the first English colony in North America. Obviously, that one is still in use.

Just over twenty years after Gilbert founded St. John's, Champlain arrived and founded French colonies at Port Royal and two years later at Quebec City. Obviously those are still in use (well I'm not sure about Port Royal but Quebec City is).


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> The other three are throwing the rogue under the bus. Probably accurate, but really, how tight are they if he can go rogue like that and they had no idea. He must be kinda political in his day-to-day speaking, no?



Being political doesn't mean they ever suspected that he would do something like this.

On another note, apparently the guy is a flat earther too.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Jamdog said:


> Do you know French is one of two official languages in the country?



Does Quebec know that English is an official language, or do they just not give a shit?




> Blaming ignorance of a language to permit bastardisation when that specific language should be learned in the first place makes little sense.



Why should we learn French? We have two official languages, not two mandatory languages. 

And considering how discriminatory Quebec is towards English why should the rest of us go out of our way to learn their language?





> It's author never intended it to be translated.



How do you know? Did you ask him?




> Signing it in English is an insult to the memory of Adolphe-Basile Routhier.



Well considering that he lived for 14 years after the first English language version was created and there is no record of him ever having complained, I would say it is only an insult in your mind. He didn't seem to give a shit.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Electraglide said:


> The french version was not written as an "anthem" for any country. It was written for a french holiday in Quebec. As far as 'learning' french. I had to take it from gr. 7 to gr. 12. No choice.
> @Lincoln the bird is the White-throated Sparrow.


I took 4 years of French in high school. Grade 9 and 10.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I spoke French before I spoke English, but over the years my French has declined through inactivity.

Personally I think the sign laws in Quebec are pretty silly.

I wonder if some ambitious members can find a study indicating 1st language by percentage of Canada's population.

I think French is probably not number two on that list anymore.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> I spoke French before I spoke English, but over the years my French has declined through inactivity.
> 
> Personally I think the sign laws in Quebec are pretty silly.
> 
> ...


That is an interesting thought. There is a growing population of Chinese in Canada, especially in large cities and university towns. As an organization, Jehovah's Witnesses are now translating in over 750 languages worldwide but in Canada, it seems the fastest growing in new congregations outside of English is Chinese and then Spanish, so you may very well be correct. Toronto, Vancouver, Hamilton, K-W area and Winnipeg have large populations of Chinese. There must be others as well.


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

colchar said:


> Does Quebec know that English is an official language, or do they just not give a shit?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Most people in Quebec are bilingual. 

Are you saying most Canadians cannot learn a second language? Why would that be? Is French so difficult to learn that only people in Quebec can learn it? Why does the vast majority of people here speak 2 or 3 languages while the rest of the country can't manage to learn their two official ones? 

If you like your country, you should like it's entirety. Why the hate for a quarter of your country's territory? Why the hate for a quarter of your country's population? Why the hate for half your country's languages?


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

Lincoln said:


> there's a bird I hear all the time while walking in the forest. It's song is the first 3 notes of O Canada. Sometimes I swear these birds hit the 4th note too.
> Every time I hear this bird's call I wonder if that's where the melody began or was built upon.
> 
> No drugs involved, this is real sh1t.


No drugs. Hmmm, ok then let's try this again. First make sure you have the zig zags. ........


Jamdog , as colchar mentions, 

You can't make this many assumptions. I'm proudly bilingual and believe in the importance of our two founding heritages. That said, on both sides, avoiding learning a language is something many people regret. And for some is just too demanding. 

There is a lot more to fret about in this country presently than people's disdain for learning both languages.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Jamdog said:


> Most people in Quebec are bilingual.


Are you sure about this statement?

I know that New Brunswick has the most evenly divided French and English populations (or used to). There was at one time around 50% / 50% French and English there.

Even so, not many there are bilingual.

I Speak English, could recover my French without too much trouble and can be polite in Japanese and Spanish, but really I only speak one language as most people probably do.


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

Milkman said:


> Are you sure about this statement?
> 
> I know that New Brunswick has the most evenly divided French and English populations (or used to). There was at one time around 50% / 50% French and English there.
> 
> ...


I don't know anyone here who cannot speak at least some English, except some elderly. 

English as a second language is thought through all elementary and secondary school and is mandatory to obtention of high school diploma. 

Theres a vast culture online that works mainly in English. 

It's rarely a question of if the person understands and speak English or not, but how good (or bad) they do. 
Of course, several will refuse to speak English because they don't master it, call it shyness. A lot of people have a strong accent and poor vocabulary, too.
It happen when you don't use a language much. 

But even the pure separatists from Lac-St-Jean understands most of what you say in English, and can throw a few sentences. 

I *never* passed an interview for a job where they didn't ask me something in English. It is *expected* that people speak both languages, or at least English. (yeah, it's racist that way - speak English, or both, to get a job in Montréal, while the laws says French is the official language. Go figure)

But to come back on your question, I should have said most francophones in Quebec are bilingual. Half the anglophones refuses to speak French.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Steve6D said:


> I didn't watch the game, and I don't know the lyrics of the Canadian National Anthem (well, I know the first two).
> 
> But I know how I would feel if someone changed the lyrics of our National Anthem.
> 
> Some things are sacrosanct...


Sometimes its not the lyric-change but the manner in which it's sung. When some singer decides to spice up an anthem with a bunch of fancy "Aguilera-isms", I think I would rather they DO change the lyrics radically, just so no one mistakenly thinks that IS the anthem. (Yeah, maybe its one of those elevator Muzak renditions that _approximates_ a tune you could swear you've heard before but changes it just enough to sidestep copyright issues.)

But seriously, people overlook just how much this is a matter of timing and context. Had the same change been inserted well _before_ the BLM movement started, or perhaps a year from now after (hopefully) things had improved a bit, I don't think many would care. The trouble is that assertions of "all lives matter", at the present time, has a ring of "What? You think you're so special? You're not that special. You're no better than anyone else.". In other words, it sounds dismissive.

In truth, some of the failures of those tasked with upholding the safety of the public have been because they _didn't _think all lives mattered (witness the push for an inquiry into missing and murdered aboriginal women). But _when_ you say "All lives matter" changes its connotation.

25 years back, when I was living in Fredericton, there was a local bookseller who had been a thorn in the side of many, that had an outdoor book-cart, and was selling _Mein Kampf_, among other books. The perpetual mayor, Brad Woodside, took major offense to selling Hitler books and acted to suspend the seller's license. In fact, there were many in town equally offended by the seller. But let us say the seller had a section on their cart labelled "Books of questionable taste and no redeeming social value", and placed Mein Kampf under that section. Would the reaction have been the same? Ultimately, it's not the fact that the book is being sold that irritated people, but rather the fact that it was treated as being of equal value to, say, "The Wealthy Barber", a Chilton's manual for the Mazda 3, the latest Harlequin romance or a field guide to songbirds of the region, that angered and offended people.

Timing, and "framing" are very important when assessing the perceived acceptability of something.


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2016)

Jamdog said:


> Is French so difficult to learn that only people in Quebec can learn it?


From what I remember, Parisienne (high school stuff) is sneered at over there.
Are there any Quebecois courses anywhere?


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

laristotle said:


> From what I remember, Parisienne (high school stuff) is sneered at over there.
> Are there any Quebecois courses anywhere?


Yeah, French the Parisian way is... Something else. 

Montréal slang classes would be fun. 

Particularly the chapter on curses. 


Calisse d'ostie de tabernacle, monsieur le professeur!


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Jamdog said:


> Most people in Quebec are bilingual.
> 
> Are you saying most Canadians cannot learn a second language? Why would that be? Is French so difficult to learn that only people in Quebec can learn it? Why does the vast majority of people here speak 2 or 3 languages while the rest of the country can't manage to learn their two official ones?
> 
> If you like your country, you should like it's entirety. Why the hate for a quarter of your country's territory? Why the hate for a quarter of your country's population? Why the hate for half your country's languages?


First of all, most Canadians can and DO learn French. It was required in school when I went and I'm sure it's still required now. As adults we have a choice to pursue it or not based on our own individual needs/desires.

I don't think anyone here even suggested any hate towards Quebec or French. But if you're wondering in general, I would guess that it's a result of seemingly never ending separatist movements combined with French protectionism. Let's turn it around a bit. How can you expect 3/4 of your country's population/territory NOT to get upset that a good portion of the 1/4 seems to have no respect for the other 3/4? Why is it that protecting French within Canada's culture MUST include disrespecting English (the majority)? Why is it that any bilingual laws in Canada don't seem to be accepted or respected in Quebec? How is it possible that a PRIVATE business owner in parts (maybe all?) of Quebec can actually get fined for having English (in addition to French, not just English only signs) on their business signs...in a legally protected bilingual country?

In many ways, Quebec has seemed to go out of it's way to alienate the English population under the guise of protecting it's French heritage. Can't the the rich cultural heritage of Quebec's French history be protected without slapping the English culture in the face? Shouldn't the unique history of the French AND English culture within Canada be celebrated for what it is rather than divided and debated?


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

laristotle said:


> From what I remember, Parisienne (high school stuff) is sneered at over there.
> Are there any Quebecois courses anywhere?


We took Parisienne french and our teacher thought that what they spoke in quebec back then was slang.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Milkman said:


> I wonder if some ambitious members can find a study indicating 1st language by percentage of Canada's population.


It should be very easy to find. Stats Can will likely have that info. I can't do it right now but, if nobody has done it by the time I return this afternoon, I will search it out then.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Language and bilingualism....

It is an established fact by linguists that, no matter what languages are involved, and no matter where you go in the world, linguistic minorities will always be more fluent in multiple languages than the linguistic majority. And the reasons are pretty simple and straightforward. Minorities are surrounded by the language of majority, and the linguistic majority are assured of receiving receive all services in their own language. majorities have little incentive to venture beyond their own first language, and minorities are effectively penalized for sticking with theirs. That doesn't necessarily mean that minorities will speak the majority language as if it were their first language, but they are much more likely to be functionally fluent in the language of majority.

A second well-established fact is that people who have learned more than one language usually do a lot better on many measures of cognitive flexibility. There's just something to being able to look at one's first language like an object, a curiosity, that gives one deeper insight into how it works and how to use it. And acquiring a second or third language can provide that degree of objectivity. I have to say that going for French immersion training for work taught me SO much about English, I was constantly and pleasantly surprised, and deeply appreciate the fact that I was sent for training. I had French from about grade 6 up into CEGEP, but quite honestly, it never really left me able to do much more than say "J'ai besoin d'un screwdriver Robertson, pi un ratchet 'five-sixteen' ". In other words I could express little without a surfeit of anglicisms.

Shortly after my second round of training (where the objective is to be able to be "persuasive" and capable of explanation in one's second official language), I had volunteered to do a presentation at a conference, and was operating under the mistaken assumption that it was to be a "bilingual" presentation. That would usually imply a token amount of spoken French and a dual-language Powerpoint deck. That morning I learned that I had volunteered to do one presentation and Q&A in English, and a second one in French. I only learned this just before lunch and the French talk/presentation was just after lunch,; basically a hour away. So, I winged it, and did the entire presentation in French as well as fielding questions from the audience. People said they learned a lot, and my "trial-by-fire" was successful. It's not THAT hard, but I suppose some folks have an ear for language, and others not so much. certainly the halls of the government language training center were littered with the ghosts of what my wife and I call M.A.N.G.s - middle-aged numbers guys - whose fluency in their own _first_ language is pretty low, so expecting them to become fluent in a second one is expecting the moon.

There are large areas of Quebec where little or no English is spoken on a daily basis. I remember well, stopping at a large shopping mall in Drummondville many years ago, and realizing that I heard absolutely NO English spoken around me. For all I knew, I was the only Anglophone in the joint. I_ thought_ I knew Quebec up to that point, having been born in Montreal and lived half my life there. But all I knew was Montreal, and quite honestly, I only knew the_ west_ side of Montreal. It was an epiphany.

New Brunswick is the only officially bilingual province in the country. Parts of the province are very French, parts are very English, and parts are delightfully balanced. Edmundston, NB sits on one side of the river and Madawaska, Maine sits on the other, and residents live their lives on both sides of the river, in both languages. If you go to the IGA in Madawaska, you're likely to hear "Hey Normand, ah you going to the pahhhty at the bahhh ehhhfteh wuuhhhk? "Chu pas. J'vais voir" (I dunno. I'll see.) at the checkout.

Certainly the biggest obstacle to a fully bilingual country is not the obstinacy of those who consider themselves to have _personally_ won at the Plains of Abraham, but the courtesy of the majority of Francophones, who will gladly speak in English if they sense difficulty in their Anglophone conversant. Majority-speakers don't like feeling less competent in a minority language so they will try to avoid having to speak in that language. It's like suddenly finding yourself with cats on both legs and having to use crutches. There are people who live their whole lives like that (and worse), but the contrast from being and feeling fully competent tends to lead one to depend on others more than is probably necessary. So, just like people NOT on crutches will happily open doors for you and ask if you need them to get the canned goods off that shelf in the supermarket, Francophones will gladly speak English if they sense your meagre French will be an obstacle to conversation. It rarely, if ever, works in the other direction (i.e., an Anglophone switching to whatever French they might know to facilitate communication). So Francophones get the practice, and Anglophones manage to avoid it because "it's too hard". 

I can't begin to count the number of ostensibly Canadian-music lists we've seen here that have absolutely NO French content in them. You'd think Quebec was like the "retarded brother" that the rest of the family didn't want to talk about, and preferred to ignore. Quebec seems eminently capable of understanding and appreciating everything from the English world, but the ROC (rest of Canada) seems completely incapable of noticing or comprehending anything from the French side.

I've mentioned here before how we were in Charlottetown on Canada Day some years back, and I was stunned to see Karkwa - a brilliant Quebec band on the level of Radiohead - inserted into the afternoon of free music fare at the main stage. There were about 16-18 spectators in attendance, myself included. Later, Matt Anderson was a headliner and simply packed the joint; thousands. Now, nothing against Matt Anderson. He has a decent voice and he gives it his all. But there is little that is "new" about him. He's like your local Thursday night pub singer, only with better lighting. What he had going for him that day was that he was a (relatively) local boy...and he sang in English. Karkwa sere selling out arenas in Quebec, but because they were a "French band" nobody in the Maritimes had heard of them, and they were booked to go on at 2PM.

Sometimes I am embarrassed by my fellow Anglophones.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Jamdog said:


> Most people in Quebec are bilingual.


And yet they discriminate against English.




> Are you saying most Canadians cannot learn a second language?


Since I teach ESL no, I am not saying that. What I am saying is why the hell should we bother French when A) we don't need it _at all_ and B) when the Quebecois discriminate against English? Why the fuck should we bother to learn the language of those who actively suppress our language _especially_ when theirs is a language that we do not need to speak and that will not benefit our daily lives one iota? Tell you what - we can revisit this issue when Quebec stops discriminating against English. When they do that come talk to me and I'll consider signing up for French lessons. Until then, no chance.



> Why does the vast majority of people here speak 2 or 3 languages while the rest of the country can't manage to learn their two official ones?


Because they came from countries where a language other than English or French was spoken and they needed to learn at least one of our official languages to get by in a new country. Those of us born in English Canada have no need to learn French.




> If you like your country, you should like it's entirety.


So we cannot dislike anything about Canada? Does that mean that because I like Canada I should automatically like my current provincial government? Are we not allowed to like Canada while disliking some aspects of it?



> Why the hate for a quarter of your country's territory?


Why does that quarter hate the other three quarters? I wouldn't give a shit about Quebec or French but my dislike for them developed in response to their constant whining, their bullying, and their systematic suppression of English. 

The Quebecois need to learn something - September 13th 1759. We won. You lost. Get over it already.




> Why the hate for a quarter of your country's population?


French Canadians do not make up a quarter of Canada's population.




> Why the hate for half your country's languages?


Maybe you should ask the Quebecois that same question.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Jamdog said:


> I *never* passed an interview for a job where they didn't ask me something in English. It is *expected* that people speak both languages, or at least English. (yeah, it's racist that way - speak English, or both, to get a job in Montréal, while the laws says French is the official language. Go figure)


So the country is officially bilingual, every province other than Quebec is officially bilingual, but in Quebec the official language is French and you think that _we_ are the ones with the problem?!?! Sweet Jebus..............................





> Half the anglophones refuses to speak French.



And no Francophones refuse to speak English? Bullshit.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

mhammer said:


> 25 years back, when I was living in Fredericton, there was a local bookseller who had been a thorn in the side of many, that had an outdoor book-cart, and was selling _Mein Kampf_, among other books. The perpetual mayor, Brad Woodside, took major offense to selling Hitler books and acted to suspend the seller's license. In fact, there were many in town equally offended by the seller. But let us say the seller had a section on their cart labelled "Books of questionable taste and no redeeming social value", and placed Mein Kampf under that section. Would the reaction have been the same? Ultimately, it's not the fact that the book is being sold that irritated people, but rather the fact that it was treated as being of equal value to, say, "The Wealthy Barber", a Chilton's manual for the Mazda 3, the latest Harlequin romance or a field guide to songbirds of the region, that angered and offended people.



_Mein Kampf_ has far more value than those other books as it is of much, much greater historical significance. World War II played a massive role in how our world has developed and that book played a role in how that conflict emerged.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

colchar said:


> The Quebecois need to learn something - September 13th 1759. We won. You lost. Get over it already.


And here I was proud, thinking that, unlike so many other nations we have no colonial imperialist past.
If I recall correctly, it was that thinking that resulted in the residential schools, the 60's scoop, etc., and we saw how terrific that worked out for everyone concerned. The idea of "conquest" is right up there with slavery, as an idea from the past _well _worth hanging onto.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Jamdog, you'll like this, if you haven't heard it already. A classic.

The Vestibules - Looking for a Job in Quebec (Music Track) on Frogtoon Music


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

mhammer said:


> A second well-established fact is that people who have learned more than one language usually do a lot better on many measures of cognitive flexibility.


That applies to children, not adults. In fact, adults have a significantly tougher time picking up a second language than do children.




> New Brunswick is the only officially bilingual province in the country.


So is Manitoba. Hell, it was officially bilingual when it was founded. And all three territories are officially bilingual as well.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

mhammer said:


> And here I was proud, thinking that, unlike so many other nations we have no colonial imperialist past.
> If I recall correctly, it was that thinking that resulted in the residential schools, the 60's scoop, etc., and we saw how terrific that worked out for everyone concerned. The idea of "conquest" is right up there with slavery, as an idea from the past _well _worth hanging onto.



Where is a facepalm smilie when I really need one?

And if you didn't think that we had a colonial imperialist past you might want to try introducing yourself to a Native Canadian at some point.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

"The Quebecois need to learn something - September 13th 1759. We won. You lost. Get over it already."

This reminds me of a funny story - I grew up in small town Quebec and graduated from Laval University. My GF was an Anglophone (with a French last name) and while walking through the plains of Abraham with a bunch of my separatist friends, she blurted out " so this is where we kicked your asses". As much as I thought it was funny, the subject changed quite rapidly.


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

@colchar your colonialist attitude is the main reason there are whining and protectionalist laws in Quebec. 

If nobody would expect French Canadians to become English Canadians, the whole of Canada would get along quite well. 

The root cause is not protectionism.

If you won, why do we still speak French?


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

No one regrets being bilingual on their deathbed. 

Living in a somewhat ******* part of the world means I simply haven't needed to learn another language. However, a few times in my job I would have benefited from some better understanding of languages. I had father and son music students direct from France, the father with minimal English, the son with none (the family believed there wouldn't be a problem in bilingual Canada...right...); a Spanish exchange student with pretty good English but I would have loved to converse in her language at least a little for better comprehension; a boy from India with dictionary English but no grasp of colloquialisms, metaphor, or simile.

I have no French past high school, most of which (both French and high school) I've forgotten, but maybe what has helped me get along is the experience of being raised by bilingual parents with a grasp of other languages (Latin, Ojibway, Germanic). It made for interesting dinner table conversation when the elders didn't want the youngsters to know what was discussed. Conversational Latin with various mongrel language usages here and there. No wonder I grew up confused. 

I get very tired of anecdotal evidence in the debates over bilingualism, usually given by people at least as uninformed as me. But...Once, while buying gas in New Brunswick (a most beautiful part of the world, btw, Gawd I love the place), the attendant in the store and myself couldn't make ourselves understood. The little we knew about the transaction had to do with money, obviously, and lots of money words are French, apparently. With a little humour, we got the business done, even declined the assistance of another customer because we were having so much fun with it. Now, I don't know if the attendant was winding me up or not, in the end it didn't matter. Humour goes a long way. (I've been back to that same gas station a few more times but never got the same attendant.)


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Jamdog said:


> Because it was written in French. Removing all the French from it makes it something that it is not. The official anthem in bilingual, the original anthem is French, the English one is just a fraud.
> 
> Do you know French is one of two official languages in the country? Blaming ignorance of a language to permit bastardisation when that specific language should be learned in the first place makes little sense.
> 
> The oh Canada is a French song. It's author never intended it to be translated. Signing it in English is an insult to the memory of Adolphe-Basile Routhier.


I knew the original version was written in French, not the version ALL of Canada has known that was written in English that IS OUR OFFICIAL Anthem. Sorry its not the French version like you stated. The version written in 1908 by Robert Weir in ENGLISH was officially adopted as our Anthem in 1980 although the words have been changed some since Weir wrote it. Still, the English version is OUR official version for all of Canada. And for the record Routheir was not the only person that had his hands in writing the French version although he seems to be the person most people seem to think was the one that wrote it. So technically the French version is NOT our official Anthem and should never be sung as such. Its a fraud.

Of course I know French is one of our 2 official languages. I do know a little French and I honestly wish I could speak it like I do English. Singing the French version wouldn't take long to learn. 

Judging by the majority of your comments to people I can see your a proud French person. Just remember though just because you believe that all of Canada should know French doesn't mean the majority of Canada wants to learn French. 

Sorry I asked the original question.


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

TA462 said:


> Sorry I asked the original question.


Dont be sorry, it's a nice question. 

Even your English version of the anthem was written to fit the music by Calixa Lavalé, which was proudly writing music for the French Canadian st-jean-baptiste. 

There was two translations of the oh Canada, one was more of a direct translation then the official one, which is why the bilingual one seems that odd - it's placing two halves of distinct songs together. I must admit that under those circumstances it's rather well done. 

When there's a hockey game in the West, they do play the anthem in the official, bilingual version. But when they play the anthem in Toronto, they play it in full English. Why is so?


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

When Ottawa and Montreal are in town they sing O Canada half French and half English, usually. I've never heard any Western team sing O Canada in French though, maybe its only when Montreal is there? I was in Florida for a Habs game a few years ago and they sang it in French which I didn't expect. It got a louder cheer the States Anthem, lol.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

TA462 said:


> When Ottawa and Montreal are in town they sing O Canada half French and half English, usually. I've never heard any Western team sing O Canada in French though, maybe its only when Montreal is there? I was in Florida for a Habs game a few years ago and they sang it in French which I didn't expect. It got a louder cheer the States Anthem, lol.


If I'm not mistaken, one can get many of the French-language dailies (La presse, Journal-de-Montreal, Le devoir, etc.) in newspaper boxes in Florida, right beside USA Today. "La Floride" is a very popular vacation and retirement spot for Québecois, French and English alike.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

I am happy to be a Canadian, something I had no decision in, btw. Born here and never left.

Having seen what "patriotism" does to some folks, I tend not to get too wound up about trivial instances of wounded national pride.

I could care less what words some wanker uses when singing off-key at a sporting event in another country.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Here's a little segue.

What the one Tenor did was inexcusable, but I also find it very distasteful when a singer tries to put too much of their own spin on an anthem.

Don't f$#k with the melody, chords or lyrics.

It's not a song for you to interpret. It's a national anthem.

Hendrix doing the star spangled banner seems different some how, but maybe that's a double standard.


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## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

Hendrix wasn't playing it as an official function. 

Much as I like his version, I believe it did open the door for liberal interpretations, whether good or bad.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

His playing of the Star-Spangled Banner was both social commentary and humour. Keep in mind he was playing to an early morning crowd, many of whom had grown up hearing the SSB through their school intercom at that very time of day, and were probably just as drowsy Monday morning in Grade 10 home room as they were that Sunday morning at Yasgur's farm. Playing it the way he did was partly a statement of "I'll bet you never heard it like _this_ in school!". And at the same time, being as it was performed in 1969, a short year after the Chicago Democratic Convention and the riots there, as well as other anti-war riots, followed a mere 9 months later by the Kent State killings, it was a statement about the Viet Nam War.


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## Guest (Jul 14, 2016)




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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm really talking more about the tendency for many singers to "over-sing" the anthems, adding grace notes where none are needed, taking liberties with the melody, giving it a soul or country feel et cetera.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Wow - talk about a side-track!

As for the Tenors, it was the one guy who changed the lyric. The other 3, beyond some brief looks, were professionals and made it to the end. It was a stupid thing for the guy to do and his follow-up explanations don't make it any less so. It wasn't about black lives or all lives or French and English - it was about a guy using a captive situation to forward a dumb agenda.


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

Milkman said:


> I'm really talking more about the tendency for many singers to "over-sing" the anthems, adding grace notes where none are needed, taking liberties with the melody, giving it a should or country feel et cetera.


I too find it annoying. 

It's often done in sports interpretation of the anthems. Sometimes very very badly.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)




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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Alex said:


> "The Quebecois need to learn something - September 13th 1759. We won. You lost. Get over it already."
> 
> This reminds me of a funny story - I grew up in small town Quebec and graduated from Laval University. My GF was an Anglophone (with a French last name) and while walking through the plains of Abraham with a bunch of my separatist friends, she blurted out " so this is where we kicked your asses". As much as I thought it was funny, the subject changed quite rapidly.


Probably got the same result as when I was sitting in a Legion in Bellows Falls Vermont with some 'Nam Vets and brought up the war of 1812.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

Jamdog said:


> It is *expected* that people speak both languages, or at least English. (yeah, it's racist that way - speak English, or both, to get a job in Montréal, while the laws says French is the official language. Go figure)


This is one of the biggest problems which stands in the way of addressing problems here in the States.

If I say I want to build a fence on our southern border, I'm called a "racist". Yet my desire to have one has absolutely nothing to do with anyone's race. If I say the Dallas shooter deserved to be killed I'm called a racist, but I say that because he murdered five cops. It has nothing to do with his skin color. 

Not hiring someone because they don't speak a particular language isn't racist at all. It's discriminatory, but not all discrimination is rooted in racism...


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

French and Arabic are my first languages. I was born in Cornwall and stayed until I was 4.

My parents moved there with their family, because of the french language - it made the transition much simpler. 

They were discriminated against for speaking the parisienne french. The french would actually start talking back to them in English. They STILL do it, even though my parents are fluent in french (among about 5 other languages).

Kinda shitty, right?

When I was late teen, when going back to visit my cousins, it was common that we head out to Hull where we could start drinking at a younger age. 

Yeah, _those_ french HATED us. Bar fights a plenty. Understandable, I suppose, but it was always 'us' vs. 'them'. You didn't have a choice.

If you ask me, the french make it weird.


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## GuitarT (Nov 23, 2010)

"When there's a hockey game in the West, they do play the anthem in the official, bilingual version. But when theyplay the anthem in Toronto, they play it in full English. Why is so?"

Our National Athem has an official English version, an official French version and an official bilingual version. Neither one is more "official" or superior to another. I'm sure that whichever official version chosen for a particular event would largely be decided by the language demographics of the area.


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