# You haven't lived until....



## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

..... you're driving 50 k down the road, the guy in front of you puts on his brakes, you step on yours and....... NO BRAKES! That just happened to me about 20 minutes ago! My heart is still pounding a bit. Went to step on the brake pedal and it just went to the floor like I was pressing air! Just barely touched the guy in front of me. Luckily he was understanding. I pulled over, had a meltdown, then because I was almost home, took the back road. The brake seemed to come back a bit but.... holy hannah that was a horrifying experience!


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Glad you're OK! :food-smiley-004:


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

sounds like you have a leak in the brake line? i'm glad you are ok. it's tough to remember, but when you're driving, always be sure to leave yourself an escape route, and when the going gets tough, steer for the shoulder... 

also, as the pilots say, any landing you can walk away from is a good one.


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## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

I've had that happen to me, great adrenelin rush.... probably one of the front flex lines they are famous for that. Shows how little the rear brakes do.


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

Thank you Danbo!

Suttree, I don't know what it is. My mechanic is being evasive! I did hear a 'snap' about 20 minutes before it happened but I don't think that was related. The car was behaving weird tho'. It's a pretty helpless feeling, especially in rush hour traffic at a busy intersection (Centre Street and McKnightmare Road for you Calgarians).

Paul, dumb question..... if the car is rear wheel drive (1984 Mazda RX7), do those brakes work harder than the front ones? The rear ones were done about 5 years ago.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

your mechanic should never be evasive. 

also, the front brakes work harder because of the physics at work (as you stop, inertia pushes the load forward, which means that the front brakes bear more of the load), the location of the drive wheels doesn't change it. the only way to make the rear brakes work harder is to drive backwards...


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

suttree said:


> your mechanic should never be evasive.
> 
> also, the front brakes work harder because of the physics at work (as you stop, inertia pushes the load forward, which means that the front brakes bear more of the load), the location of the drive wheels doesn't change it. the only way to make the rear brakes work harder is to drive backwards...


Physics was my worst subject! That does make sense tho'. The mechanic hasn't seen the car yet. I got in the door and phoned him all panicky. He's a good guy.... deals exclusively with RX7's, Cosmos, and RX8's (and the odd RX2 that comes in). I've been going to him for years. I'm going to check the brake fluid tomorrow (that much I can do) then it goes into the shop on Monday. My heart has returned to its normal pace now :smile:


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## happydude (Oct 15, 2007)

Although it's not easily accessible in many vehicles, it's times like this when it's handy to know where your E-brake is and be able to yank on that sucker in an emergency. Glad to hear there was no serious harm done.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Also, in the morning, roll your car a full length. Push it if need be. Look at the ground. A leak will be very easy to spot if it is a fresh one and if there is still fluid leaking. Though with brakes you can pump them dry pretty fast too @[email protected] done that a few times restoring my first van 1979 Ford E150!


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

happydude said:


> Although it's not easily accessible in many vehicles, it's times like this when it's handy to know where your E-brake is and be able to yank on that sucker in an emergency. Glad to hear there was no serious harm done.


I don't know why I didn't think of that?? The ebrake is right beside the gearshifter :zzz:


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

keeperofthegood said:


> Also, in the morning, roll your car a full length. Push it if need be. Look at the ground. A leak will be very easy to spot if it is a fresh one and if there is still fluid leaking. Though with brakes you can pump them dry pretty fast too @[email protected] done that a few times restoring my first van 1979 Ford E150!


That's a great idea. I'm on a hill so it'll be easy to let the car roll a bit (with wheels turned into the curb of course) and see if there's a leak. Thanks Keeper


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

70% of your braking comes from the front.

For the past 30 or so years, all cars have had a "dual master cylinder" which means that the fluid system is split in two and, at the worst you should always have some braking power to two wheels (usually on a diagonal). 

The biggest problem is that we are physically and mentally conditioned to the braking characteristics of our cars and expect that with a certain pressure and travel of the pedal the car will stop within a certain distance. Typically in that moment of panic when it doesn't work we aren't prepared and don't press far or hard enough (the pedal will sink almost to the floor when half the system blows) or even think to reach for the emergency (which may very well be seized up from non-use) or even the horn for that matter. Similarly, if you have power brakes and the vacumm fails it can feel very much the same - the pedal will sink much closer to the floor and you will have to push really, really hard, and and as result may not react fast enough to a sudden emergency.

I had a brake failure years ago with my 3 children in the car - it was a horrible feeling as we sailed through the intersection of Bloor and the Danforth - untouched luckily. A rear line had blown and even though I still had some braking, the position of my foot was adapted to the normal travel of the pedal - my ankle wouldn't move far enough to get that last bit of stopping power without repositioning my leg first.

It was a lesson learned though. Most people don't touch the brake pedal until the last convenient moment which doesnt allow them time to react to a problem. I make it a habit to always put slight pressure on my brake pedal if I anticipate having to stop - long before necessary. Just a little touch - and then back off again when I feel the pedal push back (then I race like heck to the rear bumper of the car stopped ahead and brake at the last minute like everybody else )


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## Peter (Mar 25, 2008)

Had to put a shitkicked 90's Nissan Sentra down into the grass lane in the middle of the freeway at about 110 km/h one time when the same thing happened to me. Glad you're ok.


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

Well, the brake fluid is fine and there's no leaks on the ground. The brake pedal feels stiff, just like normal. I had just spent a half-hour in stop-go traffic prior to this event. Could it have been just a one-time weird thing? 

Allthumbs, I know what you're saying. We all have a general sense of how much time and pressure we need in order to stop. When anything chnages, we're like a fish out of water. It's not like I had time to logically think 'oh, I'd better press the pedal more'. All I knew in that moment is that my usual action had failed and I was not stopping while the guy ahead of me was. Then ya hit panic mode, which is good for nothing.

Delirium! OMG, you're so lucky that turned out as well as it did. I should be grateful too as I had just come off Blackfoot Trail and was doing a pretty fast pace. Had they failed then, I'd have been toast!


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

Gilliangirl said:


> Well, the brake fluid is fine and there's no leaks on the ground. The brake pedal feels stiff, just like normal. I had just spent a half-hour in stop-go traffic prior to this event. Could it have been just a one-time weird thing?


what you probably have then is an air bubble in the brake line. you'll need to get them bled (minor job, shouldn't cost much). if the pedal failure happens again, pump your brake pedal as quickly as you can, it should come back (this is of course useless in a panic stop, so do get them bled).


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

suttree said:


> what you probably have then is an air bubble in the brake line. you'll need to get them bled (minor job, shouldn't cost much). if the pedal failure happens again, pump your brake pedal as quickly as you can, it should come back (this is of course useless in a panic stop, so do get them bled).


Do you think it's safe to drive it down to the shop or should it be towed? I thought I might take it around the block tonight to see how it's responding.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

although id drive a car with no brakes to the east coast myself, if it failed you once, dont **** around, get it looked at. i hate the thought of women driving unsafe cars. somewhere there is a problem, thats for sure- i service the vehicles of my family members, and for a few of my friends- i worked in shops before, and its a complete ripoff for the customer, and usually the mechanic as well- got a friend you trust? have him check it out, but until then, go sloooow.......:smile:
if it was a leak, allowing air into the system, then its unlikely that the brakes would function normally now. more likely that something broke, and now your other 3 brakes are taking up the slack-


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Well, whatever's wrong with it, hopefully it isn't too expensive.

But more importantly it seems you're okay.

Vehicle collisions are not fun. The possible injuries and pain are disruptive to your life--in addition to the possibility of severe injury or worse.

And insurance companies are a pain to deal with as well.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

LOL yes. A call to CAA is a whole lot cheaper than a call to the insurance company.

Break fluid can also just go bad too. I would also suggest having them test for contamination while at it. Knowing the condition of your fluids can help you decide how much work will be needed. Had this happen with my Mazda 626, my break fluid had water in it :/ with spongy and ineffectual breaking.


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

sounds like a possible faulty master cylinder to me.... all speculation of course.......glad you're OK
Gerry


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

zontar said:


> Well, whatever's wrong with it, hopefully it isn't too expensive.
> 
> But more importantly it seems you're okay.
> 
> ...


Hope you're doing okay after the accident, Zontar?


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## bleedingfingers (Sep 25, 2007)

If it happened once it can happen again .
Get it towed and get it fixed .

Glad you and no one else were hurt .

cheers B.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Gilliangirl said:


> Hope you're doing okay after the accident, Zontar?



I'm not 100% where I was before, but I am getting better. Hopefully 100% where I was is attainable.
Thanks.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

RIFF WRATH said:


> sounds like a possible faulty master cylinder to me.... all speculation of course.......glad you're OK
> Gerry


Yeah, not impossible for one of the pistons in the master cylinder (or elsewhere) sticking with age.

If air had gotten in to the system then it would most likely still be there. The only way it can usually bleed itself out is if it can travel upward and into the reservoir in the master cylinder (most of the lines twist and turn and lay horizontal so it's not condusive to this happening. Even then you have to wonder where it came from in the first place.

Another thought is that if you tried the pedal without the car running then the power system is not yet functioning. Start the car and then press on the pedal - usually the pedal sits lower when the system is running.

IF, once you start the car there are some brakes (and there probably should be - but at the very most 50%), AND, you try it in your driveway and can stop (hand on the emergency just in case), AND your mechanic is close by AND you can get there at night on very quiet streets where you are not endangering yourself or others ..... then drive it. Otherwise please spend the 50 bucks and have it towed.

We like having you here :smile:


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Similar thing happened to me around 4:30 p.m. last new years eve. Had to abort a lane change because some guy came speeding up in the other lane. When I looked ahead, the guy in front of me had stopped to make a left turn. I hit the brakes and nothing. Not the brakes though, It was about 2 degrees out and water from a melting snow bank was running down the lane. I just slide right into the guy. It was like surreal slow motion because I hit him at about 15-20 kph. Just a crunchy thud. I was fine. Other guy had hurt his arm (banged it against the door at impact). Got charged, as required per law in Ontari-ari-ari-o. 

I was driving a 94 Nissan Altima with 240k on it. Insurance company decided to right it off. Got $1800. Haven't had a car since. Minor inconvenience. Don't miss it that much.


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> Yeah, not impossible for one of the pistons in the master cylinder (or elsewhere) sticking with age.
> 
> If air had gotten in to the system then it would most likely still be there. The only way it can usually bleed itself out is if it can travel upward and into the reservoir in the master cylinder (most of the lines twist and turn and lay horizontal so it's not condusive to this happening. Even then you have to wonder where it came from in the first place.
> 
> ...


Thanks Allthumbs. I tried the car last night and the brakes worked normally, so I don't know what the heck is going on. I don't want to find out the hard way tho' so am going to bite the bullet and tow it down there on Monday. It's a long way down south so better safe than sorry.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Gilliangirl said:


> Thanks Allthumbs. I tried the car last night and the brakes worked normally, so I don't know what the heck is going on. I don't want to find out the hard way tho' so am going to bite the bullet and tow it down there on Monday. It's a long way down south so better safe than sorry.


I know nothing about this kind of thing, but that sounds like the best course of action to me FWIW.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Gilliangirl said:


> Thanks Allthumbs. I tried the car last night and the brakes worked normally, so I don't know what the heck is going on. I don't want to find out the hard way tho' so am going to bite the bullet and tow it down there on Monday. It's a long way down south so better safe than sorry.


Good luck with it - I hope they can replicate the problem and address it for you


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

Just got the bad news. Brake calipers and master cylinder. The estimated bill will be $850.00. The car isn't even worth that. Pardon me while I sit down.... I'm feeling faint!


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Gilliangirl said:


> Just got the bad news. Brake calipers and master cylinder. The estimated bill will be $850.00. The car isn't even worth that. Pardon me while I sit down.... I'm feeling faint!


Better than being dead/smashed up in a car accident though.
<yoda voice>
Money there will be more of 
Your face? Not so much
Alive, to be happy you should be
</yoda voice>


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Gilliangirl said:


> Just got the bad news. Brake calipers and master cylinder. The estimated bill will be $850.00. The car isn't even worth that. Pardon me while I sit down.... I'm feeling faint!


Normal wear and tear my dear. If you have a particular affection for this vehicle and everything else is OK this year, then go for it. (Next year is always a different story with almost vintage cars). If I remember correctly, you work in social services (or close),... so do I. I understand your financial limitations - and the justification to feel faint.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Got any mechanically inclined friends?

Replacing a master cylinder and calipers (even rotors) is pretty simple and can be done safely in your driveway for CONSIDERABLY less than $850.

Just a thought.


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

dang....I wish you were down my way...we'd have you fixed up in a jiffy for a box of beer and the parts......labour is where it hurts.....make $20 per hour and repairs cost $90 per hour...I see another rant on the way....maybe get a scooter for the summer
good luck
Gerry


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

What year is your RX-7? Do you know if you have the 4 piston or single piston Calipers?

I have an 87 with 4 piston calipers, that are made by mitsubishi. Chances are that they make the same calipers for more than one car.

Take a look on E-bay for parts, there are lots of RX-7 fans out there and lots of parts available either new, NOS, used or after market. I'm sure you can get it all done for cheaper than $850 - unless that includes all new brake lines and rotors.


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

Thanks for the info and sympathy. :smile:

I do not have any mechanically-inclined friends unfortunately. There is a used auto parts store in Calgary called Pick-A-Part (or something like that) but I wouldn't know what to look for or what shape they'd be in, if there was anything even there. The car is a 1984. Hamm, your 87 is a second gen and this one's a first gen so may be different? They weren't talking of replacing any lines. The price quoted was just for calipers and master cylinder (and labor). And they charged me $75.00 to tell me that!  It was a Fountain Tire store.

What's a scooter?


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

as in Vespra....moped..
check canadian tire/parts source for pricing....that $75 charge to look is BS...........get your parts and then find someone to put them on........normally a 2 to 3 hour installation....start another thread....Help with brakes calgary and see where that gets you...good luck...I know generally we have some very helpful and special people on this site....lets see how many are from Calgary
Gerry


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## buckaroobanzai (Feb 2, 2006)

These guys specialise in RX-7 engines, and probably have contacts for other RX-7 parts...they're in Calgary


http://www.rotaryengine.com/


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Didn't you post somewhere you had a spare car?
Or did I misread that?

I've had cars before that were worth less than the repair--and not just the last one.

If you have somebody who knows what you're looking for Pick-Your-Part can be a great resource for some parts--but I'd be real careful about brakes.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

A Vespa http://www.vespacanada.com/ is not a scooter. Its a full motorcycle, classed and licensed as one. 

Lot better mileage better insurance etc etc. I was looking at these last week, and was quoted a finance value of around 150 or so a month, and insurance from 500 a year to 2500 a year depending on policy. As I had been paying for my van before I stopped driving 3 years ago 500 a month in insurance alone...


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## buckaroobanzai (Feb 2, 2006)

I want this one.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

When it comes to cars I am a master corner-cutter. Having said that, I would never use a used hydralic part (master cylinders/calipers/etc) without rebuilding it first - seals harden over time and one speck of dust can cause a system failure. These days, unless it's a hobby (such as it is with me), you're better off going for new or factory rebuilt for what they cost.

I would also hesitate to suggest that brake work on a 20-year old car can be properly done in a driveway with "household mechanic" tools by someone with a mechanical disposition and a case of beer. It's one thing to change pads/shoes in the driveway but quite another to get into the hydraulics without proper tools and a relatively clean environment. There are probably some lines/hoses that may need replacing along the way - certainly they need to be inspected by a competent individual. It's also a good bet that the parts in question have never been off the car - some carefully applied heat may be required. 

Just remember that your life may be dependent on the results.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> When it comes to cars I am a master corner-cutter. Having said that, I would never use a used hydralic part (master cylinders/calipers/etc) without rebuilding it first - seals harden over time and one speck of dust can cause a system failure. These days, unless it's a hobby (such as it is with me), you're better off going for new or factory rebuilt for what they cost.
> 
> I would also hesitate to suggest that brake work on a 20-year old car can be properly done in a driveway with "household mechanic" tools by someone with a mechanical disposition and a case of beer. It's one thing to change pads/shoes in the driveway but quite another to get into the hydraulics without proper tools and a relatively clean environment. There are probably some lines/hoses that may need replacing along the way - certainly they need to be inspected by a competent individual. It's also a good bet that the parts in question have never been off the car - some carefully applied heat may be required.
> 
> Just remember that your life may be dependent on the results.



I've done it several times. Anyone who knows what to do can do it in their drive way. It's not like the brake shops have a "clean room".

There are many tasks I won't tackle, but brakes are pretty straight forward.

I do agree that new or refurbished parts are the way to go. The biggest kick in the wallet comes in the labour rates.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

*massive shudders* My first vehicle was a 1979 Ford Econoline Van I bought in '91 for $200. What started off as a leak in one spot of one line.... became new from the master cylinder all the way through. Every line, valve, splitter, drain plug, everything was replaced.

Old line has this magical ability to look solid until a little tension is applied and then it becomes dust, gaping cracks, or on the ground awful fast >.<


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Milkman said:


> I've done it several times. Anyone who knows what to do can do it in their drive way. It's not like the brake shops have a "clean room".
> 
> There are many tasks I won't tackle, but brakes are pretty straight forward.
> 
> I do agree that new or refurbished parts are the way to go. The biggest kick in the wallet comes in the labour rates.


As you say "anyone who knows what to do" can do it. But it is certainly not an R & R job and anyone who thinks that it is shouldn't be doing it. 

And you may indeed be able to do it in a driveway but it would never be my first choice. Cleanliness is far more important to the brake hydraulics than any other system in the car and the person doing the job better respect that. 

It's one thing when a car fails to go ..... and quite another when it fails to stop.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> As you say "anyone who knows what to do" can do it. But it is certainly not an R & R job and anyone who thinks that it is shouldn't be doing it.
> 
> And you may indeed be able to do it in a driveway but it would never be my first choice. Cleanliness is far more important to the brake hydraulics than any other system in the car and the person doing the job better respect that.
> 
> It's one thing when a car fails to go ..... and quite another when it fails to stop.


LOL, really?

I've worked for a company for fifteen years that makes brake and power steering hoses for all of the major Japanese OEMs. You're preaching to the choir with regards to the importance of these components.

The quality of the components is critical but basic assembly methods are generally all that are required to swap out parts. 

Just my opinion of course.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Milkman said:


> LOL, really?
> 
> I've worked for a company for fifteen years that makes brake and power steering hoses for all of the major Japanese OEMs. You're preaching to the choir with regards to the importance of these comonents.
> 
> ...


Well, I won't question your credibility then .... but I won't let you work on my brakes either (you could maybe put a Tele together for me though )

BTW, I'm from a long line of mechanics (auto and aircraft: grandfather, father, 2 brothers), quit my own appreticeship 25 years ago (after doing 4 or 500 brake jobs) but continue to do my own auto restoration work as a hobby.

Cheers :food-smiley-004:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> Well, I won't question your credibility then .... but I won't let you work on my brakes either (you could maybe put a Tele together for me though )
> 
> BTW, I'm from a long line of mechanics (auto and aircraft: grandfather, father, 2 brothers), quit my own appreticeship 25 years ago (after doing 4 or 500 brake jobs) but continue to do my own auto restoration work as a hobby.
> 
> Cheers :food-smiley-004:


Well you're obviously more skilled than I am when it comes to working on cars.

Frankly I really don't enjoy monkeying with cars at all, but I hate paying for things I can do myself even more.
:food-smiley-004:


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Frankly I really don't enjoy monkeying with cars at all, but I hate paying for things I can do myself even more.
> :food-smiley-004:


Same here. I can enjoy spending the whole weekend working on an old car but can't stand working on my "daily transportation" - it goes to a mechanic for all but the simplest of jobs.


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