# Simon and Patrick vs Seagull



## Bill Kerrigan

I bought an Art & Lutherie Legacy last fall... and have grown to like it's sound.
Now, I want a to buy a larger and better quality guitar... either a Simon and Patrick - Showcase Mahogany or Seagull - Artist Mosaic Element (Mahogany). 
I know they have different headstocks, but does anyone know if one is better than the other?


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## bw66

Either of those would be a great choice. Mostly a matter of personal taste. The cedar top of the Seagull will give you a different tone from the spruce in the S&P, but "better" is in the ear of the beholder. The Seagull will have a wider fretboard too - also a matter of personal preference. Best bet is to play them both and see what you like.

Edit: Why do you want a larger guitar?


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## Bill Kerrigan

Thanks Brian... I should have worded my question differently. 
Apart from fretboard size and wood tops... (spruce is available on other Seagull models) are there any manufacturing differences I should know about.


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## Bill Kerrigan

Years ago, I spent a day filming a TV show with Robert Godin demonstrating how they make their guitars. If I were to do it today, I'd ask him what are the differences, if any...
Anyone have an inside scoop?


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## Steadfastly

A few years ago, I asked a Godin dealer the same question. It is like the Chevy/Pontiac arrangement. There are slight differences in style he told me, like the headstock and fretboard size that Brian mentioned but the rest of the guitar is built with the same design and quality of materials. The difference is so they one outlet can have the S & P line and the other, the Seagull line.One line may have a few different models than the other one but for the ones that are basically the same specs, they are the same guitar except for the differences mentioned above.


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## Bill Kerrigan

Steadfastly said:


> A few years ago, I asked a Godin dealer the same question. It is like the Chevy/Pontiac arrangement. There are slight differences in style he told me, like the headstock and fretboard size that Brian mentioned but the rest of the guitar is built with the same design and quality of materials. The difference is so they one outlet can have the S & P line and the other, the Seagull line.One line may have a few different models than the other one but for the ones that are basically the same specs, they are the same guitar except for the differences mentioned above.


Cheers...


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## copperhead

Both guitars are constructed pretty much the same ,However I prefer the Simon & Patrick cause i like the headstock better than the Seagull & the neck on the Seagull is almost a soft V shape which i didn't really like compared to the S & P . I own 2 S&P Woodland pro's & both are great guitars


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## bw66

One thing you should know - if the S&P is equipped with B-Band electronics, parts are no longer available as B-Band has shut down.


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## Bill Kerrigan

bw66 said:


> One thing you should know - if the S&P is equipped with B-Band electronics, parts are no longer available as B-Band has shut down.


Thanks! I'll make sure not to get a B-Band.


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## Bill Kerrigan

I was about to install a Pure Mini in my Art & Lutherie Legacy... how would this compare to the factory pickups?


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## Steadfastly

copperhead said:


> Both guitars are constructed pretty much the same ,However I prefer the Simon & Patrick cause i like the headstock better than the Seagull & the neck on the Seagull is almost a soft V shape which i didn't really like compared to the S & P . I own 2 S&P Woodland pro's & both are great guitars


Ha, I was wondering how long it would be before the Seagull headstock was mentioned. For those not yet in the know, the reason for the Seagull headstock design is because it adds to keeping the guitar in tune because of the straight pull on the strings. You can read this on the Godin/Seagull site.


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## Mooh

Fanboy alert.

If my ears can be trusted, the brand names of Seagull and Simon & Patrick are very similar and consistent in quality of tone and projection. Virtual equals when comparing the all solid wood models. That comes from sitting across the lesson room from a great many examples of each over the years, and playing many of my own as well. They all meet a reasonably high threshold of tone quality, punching above their weight (so to speak), without breaking the bank or forcing one to compromise in other areas. Sure, there may be examples of a particular guitar or model that doesn't float your boat, but overall, you're comparing peaches to peaches.


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## Bill Kerrigan

Mooh said:


> Fanboy alert.
> 
> If my ears can be trusted, the brand names of Seagull and Simon & Patrick are very similar and consistent in quality of tone and projection. Virtual equals when comparing the all solid wood models. That comes from sitting across the lesson room from a great many examples of each over the years, and playing many of my own as well. They all meet a reasonably high threshold of tone quality, punching above their weight (so to speak), without breaking the bank or forcing one to compromise in other areas. Sure, there may be examples of a particular guitar or model that doesn't float your boat, but overall, you're comparing peaches to peaches.


Well that's peachy... thanks for the feed back!


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## Bill Kerrigan

Mooh said:


> Fanboy alert.
> 
> If my ears can be trusted, the brand names of Seagull and Simon & Patrick are very similar and consistent in quality of tone and projection. Virtual equals when comparing the all solid wood models. That comes from sitting across the lesson room from a great many examples of each over the years, and playing many of my own as well. They all meet a reasonably high threshold of tone quality, punching above their weight (so to speak), without breaking the bank or forcing one to compromise in other areas. Sure, there may be examples of a particular guitar or model that doesn't float your boat, but overall, you're comparing peaches to peaches.


Ahh... just saw the Fanboy alert.
I'm new to this forum, so I'm not sure what that means.


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## Steadfastly

Mooh said:


> Fanboy alert.
> 
> If my ears can be trusted, the brand names of Seagull and Simon & Patrick are very similar and consistent in quality of tone and projection. Virtual equals when comparing the all solid wood models. That comes from sitting across the lesson room from a great many examples of each over the years, and playing many of my own as well. They all meet a reasonably high threshold of tone quality, punching above their weight (so to speak), without breaking the bank or forcing one to compromise in other areas. Sure, there may be examples of a particular guitar or model that doesn't float your boat, but overall, *you're comparing peaches to peaches*.


..................with a different stem.


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## bw66

Bill Kerrigan said:


> Thanks! I'll make sure not to get a B-Band.


Nothing wrong with the B-Band electronics, just know that if anything ever needs replacing, you'll need to replace the whole kit. Might be a bargaining chip for a better price. My 2-channel B-Band sounded amazing.


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## bw66

Bill Kerrigan said:


> Thanks! I'll make sure not to get a B-Band.


Nothing wrong with the B-Band electronics, just know that if anything ever needs replacing, you'll need to replace the whole kit. Might be a bargaining chip for a better price. My 2-channel B-Band sounded amazing.

Edit: Well that hasn't happened for a while!


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## Mooh

Bill Kerrigan said:


> Ahh... just saw the Fanboy alert.
> I'm new to this forum, so I'm not sure what that means.


Just fair warning that I'm a fan of the brand and my opinion might not be objective or impartial.


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## Bill Kerrigan

Mooh said:


> Just fair warning that I'm a fan of the brand and my opinion might not be objective or impartial.


I'm becoming a fan also...


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## kenoakee

I have a Rosewood Showcase I bought in 2010 (her name is Mable). It's my most played and most valued guitar. I love her dearly but often think I should of saved up a while longer and went for a Martin. It is actually what brought me to this forum today I am thinking of buying a Martin. Don't tell Mable !


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## Dorian2

Steadfastly said:


> A few years ago, I asked a Godin dealer the same question. It is like the Chevy/Pontiac arrangement. There are slight differences in style he told me, like the headstock and fretboard size that Brian mentioned but the rest of the guitar is built with the same design and quality of materials. The difference is so they one outlet can have the S & P line and the other, the Seagull line.One line may have a few different models than the other one but for the ones that are basically the same specs, they are the same guitar except for the differences mentioned above.


That makes a bit of sense to me now. We have 2 stores here that carry all of the Godin brands between them, but 1 carries A&L + Seagull and the other S&P and Seagull. In the end it seems to be a great thing because it supports 3 different Canadian companies.

On anothe note, I'm considering upgrading my 2001 Seagull at some point. Then it'll be a happy family of 4. They all have their place.


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## Guitar101

bw66 said:


> Nothing wrong with the B-Band electronics, just know that if anything ever needs replacing, you'll need to replace the whole kit. Might be a bargaining chip for a better price. My 2-channel B-Band sounded amazing.
> 
> Edit: Well that hasn't happened for a while!


Every once in awhile when I hit post reply, it doesn't post immediately. I now ignore that and don't hit post reply again. When I exit the post and come back in, the post is there. I wonder if that's causing a double post when people hit post reply a second time. Not sure though.


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## Bill Kerrigan

kenoakee said:


> I have a Rosewood Showcase I bought in 2010 (her name is Mable). It's my most played and most valued guitar. I love her dearly but often think I should of saved up a while longer and went for a Martin. It is actually what brought me to this forum today I am thinking of buying a Martin. Don't tell Mable !


I own a 000 size Martin and a 000 size Art & Lutherie, which I'll call Plain Jane. Jane costs ⅕ the cost of my Martin, but gets played 50% of the time.


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## bzrkrage

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## Lincoln

Bill Kerrigan said:


> I own a 000 size Martin and a 000 size Art & Lutherie, which I'll call Plain Jane. Jane costs ⅕ the cost of my Martin, but gets played 50% of the time.


I'm thinking that if Plain Jane sounded bad in comparison to Mr. Martin, she wouldn't get played 50% on the time. At least that's how I read your post, and I'd call that a positive for Jane.


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## Bill Kerrigan

Lincoln said:


> I'm thinking that if Plain Jane sounded bad in comparison to Mr. Martin, she wouldn't get played 50% on the time. At least that's how I read your post, and I'd call that a positive for Jane.


Mr. Martin sounds better, but in the winter lives inside his humidified case, while Jane sits on a stand beside my desk.
But Jane is louder and fun to play... she's also the guitar I use to practice.


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## bw66

Guitar101 said:


> Every once in awhile when I hit post reply, it doesn't post immediately. I now ignore that and don't hit post reply again. When I exit the post and come back in, the post is there. I wonder if that's causing a double post when people hit post reply a second time. Not sure though.


Yup. It happens when my post would otherwise start a new page. I just forgot that I had already hit "post" and clicked it again.


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## Bill Kerrigan

Here's a tour of the Godin Factory...


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## mawmow

The huge difference in cost stands on the expensive imported Mahogany and Rosewood these brands do not use for their back and sides. They are made of local hard woods (Maple, Cherry and some others) instead.
I would most certainly find a good one for me if I did not have my big clumsy hands needing 1 3/4 in. nut width to play fingerstyle...


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## zguitz

I beleive the actual nut width for A&L = 1.72, S&P = 1.72 and Seagulls were and are still 1.8 
Don't know about string spacings and neck profiles which are also an important part.
Dan


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## mawmow

I had checked on the web site ("Seagull guitar specs") and did see 1,72" nut width even for Seagull models, but I went again and noticed two Seagull models do have nut width 1,8 in. namely the "performer" and one of the "concert" models.
I will check for these. Thanks ! ;-)
ADD ON : also an S6... but most Seagull models have 1,72" nut width.
Did not find much of these on web sites of local music stores except L&M :-(


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## Dorian2

zguitz said:


> I beleive the actual nut width for A&L = 1.72, S&P = 1.72 and Seagulls were and are still 1.8
> Don't know about string spacings and neck profiles which are also an important part.
> Dan


String spacing and neck profile are quite a bit different between the Seagull S6 and the A&L I have. Seagulls have a noticeably wider string spacing. The S&P's (Woodland series) that my buddies use are closer to the A&Lthan the Seagull. I can only comment on the ones I've been involved with though, but the guitars are pretty consistent build wise IMO. The S6 was my first Acoustic after having played Classical for a few years just for the fingerstyle spacing reason. Didn't even test the guitar I bought at the time with a pick. Just used my fingers to decide.


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## Ricktoberfest

I played the frets off an A&L and even though I replaced it with a low end Taylor, I still have it in my living room for banging away on when intonation isn’t an issue. I tried a S&P when I was guitar shopping but didn’t like it nearly as much as my 20 year old A&L. If you like your guitar plugged in I might recommend the Epiphone DR-500 or EJ-200. I liked both of those guitars and only got the Taylor for the brand name (and the fact that my wife liked it so was ok spending more on it)


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## John McMillin

Just for the record, Seagulls are transitioning away from their distinctive 1.8" nut width. Only a few wide-necked models remain. Likewise, they're shifting to long scale 24.5" scales. And they've dropped the Mini Jumbo body shape. So three big reasons I like the brand are vanishing, alas! So I went out and purchased all I should ever need: MJs in cedar and spruce, and a cedar Folk (for those days when you just want to play a little guitar). 

Seagull's recent changes might make them more beginner-friendly, but they're becoming more typical and less distinctive.


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## Lord-Humongous

I actually like the Seagull headstock. It’s different and there are so many defacto standard features that seem to be expected in an acoustic guitar, like a square Martin looking headstock, that I’m happy they stepped away from the ‘blueprint’. If it helps tuning, then great. Godin is an innovative company. I really dig the TRIC cases too. 

I’ve now owned two Seagulls with the wide neck and find it easy to switch from a regular nut width to the Seagull neck width. I like a fat neck otherwise and Godin doesn’t make anything with a fat neck, so I see the wide neck as a compromise.


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## Everton FC

The solid cedar top w/the wild cherry back and sides is Godin's "sweet-spot". Unique, in the entire acoustic guitar industry.


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## Mark Trites

I have owned many seagulls, simon and Patrick, and one a & l. I like them all. I play a songsmith 6 string, and 12 string, have a s&p cutaway (can’t remember model) and just picked up a rustic entourage for $100 with hard case for $100. Fun guitars


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## mrmatt1972

I've owned, played and recorded with a Seagull Anniversary Dreadnaught for years now. Like Mooh said, it punches way above its weight. The skinny headstock does help keep the guitar in tune. 

You should be aware that these are bolt on necks. I've never had any issues, but luthiers have posted their dislike of working on them. I set mine up (7 years ago?) And it has never moved despite the extremes of humidity my region is subject to.


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