# Gibson Quality?



## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

I love Gibson guitars. I currently own 7 from 2006 to 2018, and they are all quality instruments with no flaws in my opinion - the level of quality that you would expect for the various price points of the instruments. That being said, I saw this on the wall at a local music shop last week - it's a Gibson Les Paul Special Tribute Faded (didn't catch the year). Clearly they not only missed cleaning up the glue squeeze out from the neck set, but then didn't catch a highly obvious finish flaw on final inspection. Yes this is an inexpensive (for Gibson) guitar, but this should have at least been labelled "B" stock or something. No wonder it's still hanging on the wall - if I were the retailer I would have sent it back.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

I love my Gibson’s as well. One of my band mates last year wanted to buy a Studio and wanted to buy new although I was trying to convince him to find a nice used one.

We went to every store last looking and were not impressed with a single one. I have two - a 1992 and a 2002 and there just seemed to be a big difference in the feel and finish of them compared to the new ones.

On the Gibson guitar owners FB group there are constant posts of people receiving their Brand new Gibsons with the same type of issues, glue residue, finish flaws- weird stuff that shouldn’t leave the facility like that esp. considering the price.

I still love Gibson and not a hater, I also realize that the people with the issues are the ones your gonna hear from and Thousands of players are receiving and happy w the work put into their guitars but it’s definitely something to be aware of when looking.


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## Vally (Aug 18, 2016)

This was maybe 2 years ago now but I was looking at two brand new traditionals with pickup rings cracked and tuner keys cracked. WTF


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

I've actually seen this problem on two guitars with the same finish - this was the worst example.


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## silvertonebetty (Jan 4, 2015)

The only Gibson I played that I really like was a 79 lp custom 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

I learned back in 2013 to just order a Les Paul in. The Gibsons on the rack are the equivalent to a guy on the corner asking for spare change. Somebody wanted him once but not anymore.


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## Jaime (Mar 29, 2020)

I'd say part of it is shoddy QC and part of it is retailers (especially L&M) putting 0 effort into maintenance. Look how dry basically every fretboard hanging on the wall at L&M is. They pull things out of boxes and put them directly on the wall without so much as tuning them up, because people will buy them either way.

I've actually had the opposite experience with newer (i.e. 2019-present, new management era) Gibson's as far as quality is concerned. Miles ahead of the crap I've had from the late-mid 2000's onward. It's like any production line level guitar where you potentially have to get your hands on a few to find what suits you, but I'd wager the 3 specific guitars that I've got (LP Standard 50s, '61 SG, LP Jr) from the Original collection can rival absolutely any non-CS Gibson from any modern era in sound, feel, general quality.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

I’ve never seen a better example of that model.
That’s what paying unskilled factory workers in Michigan minimum wage buys.


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## Fred Twangs (Mar 13, 2021)

I will say it seems they’ve improved a fair bit, I have a 50’s gold top standard les Paul from 2019 and the nut, frets and overall set up of the guitar was impeccable, a far cry from the 2011 standard I purchased that needed a new nut immediately and a full fret dress and set up (both were purchased new by me)

glad to see them turning it around, whether it’s consistent it’s hard to say. But my 2019 is stellar


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

Thunderboy1975 said:


> I learned back in 2013 to just order a Les Paul in. The Gibsons on the rack are the equivalent to a guy on the corner asking for spare change. Somebody wanted him once but not anymore.


Lol. That's quite an analogy. I suddenly feel quite depressed.


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

zztomato said:


> Lol. That's quite an analogy. I suddenly feel quite depressed.


I dont even make eye contact, i go straight to the Ernie Ball strings then leave.😂


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Thunderboy1975 said:


> I dont even make eye contact, i go straight to the Ernie Ball strings then leave.😂


Honestly my experience at the L and M’s here is you can stand in front of a guitar waving a fistful of dollars and no one is gonna look at you anyway, except the homeless man that wondered in looking for a bathroom.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

It's pretty well known that you shouldn't buy a Gibson unless it's a local sale where you can see the guitar first. 

I've got a 2012 Jr DC that needed a new nut and fret level and dress right out of the gate.


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## alphasports (Jul 14, 2008)

I've always had a more-or-less Hate relationship with (let's politely rephrase that as "not-a-fan-of") Gibson, mostly due to my impression of them as being overrated and overpriced. BUT, I bought a used 2004 ES-137 from 12 Fret last year and despite its warts I really do like it, just something about its playability. "Warts" include non-flush neck binding, oversprayed/overpainted neck binding, quite badly misaligned saddle grooves, and just general poor finish. My other electrics are Collings and PRS cores, so the Gibson is up against some stiff competition that it can't hope to come close to fit and finish-wise, but I do love playing it.


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## JesseB94 (Feb 11, 2021)

I’d say the only finish flaw is the glue. That glue has been wiped, but very very poorly. As for the 2 shades of blue, these got maple necks. Maple takes stain differently compared to mahogany. It’s also a lighter natural colour. The lighter blue you’re seeing on the body at the neck joint, is caused by glue as well.

I know of some retailers that wouldn’t catch the most obvious of flaws. Hard to believe, but some hire people that don’t know anything about music or instruments.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Jaime said:


> They pull things out of boxes and put them directly on the wall without so much as tuning them up, because people will buy them either way.


I blame Fender for this.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

"Gibson quality". After this many years of quality control failure I'm amazed that folks are still using those two words in the same sentence. At Gibsons pricing the idea that we are still pointing out that Gibson is improving their quality seems to me to be an utter absurdity. Enough with the mindless brand worship. For that kind of money there are so many better options.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

I got the price reduced on my '16 Firebird because of Gibson QC.
The tone pot didn't work when I tested the guitar in front of the seller.


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

That one was specially wired by Brad Childers. If you pry open the pickup covers his sig will be across the pickups, sometimes the initials are under the pick gaurd. That was specially wired to go in and out of phase when set exaclty at 5 on all knobs.


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## aC2rs (Jul 9, 2007)

In the OP's example, if I really liked the guitar I wouldn't get my shorts in a serious knot over that flaw.
However, I would expect a good discount because of it.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

When I bought my 2019 Gibson Les Paul Standard from L&M I tried out a 2017 Les Paul Standard, 2018 Les Paul Standard, 2x2019 Les Paul Standards, 2020 Les Paul Standard 50s, 2020 Les Paul Standard 60s, 2020 Les Paul Modern, 2013 Les Paul Custom and 2015 Les Paul Custom. Maybe I was lucky, but none of them had any finish flaws except for a few dry fretboard (probably from the retailers not maintaining the instruments) and one guitar with a ding on it (most likely from someone trying the guitar out or mishandling it). However, I much preferred the 2019 Les Paul Standards, 2020 Les Paul Modern and 2013 Les Paul Custom (the 2015 Les Paul Custom being my least favorite). Like with any guitar or amp, I think theres going to be variation even within the same model and, in an ideal scenario, you should try out any guitar before you buy it. That being said, any mass produced product is going to result in a small percentage of issues and Gibson is one of the largest manufacturers of guitars out there.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> When I bought my 2019 Gibson Les Paul Standard from L&M I tried out a 2017 Les Paul Standard, 2018 Les Paul Standard, 2x2019 Les Paul Standards, 2020 Les Paul Standard 50s, 2020 Les Paul Standard 60s, 2020 Les Paul Modern, 2013 Les Paul Custom and 2015 Les Paul Custom. Maybe I was lucky, but none of them had any finish flaws except for a few dry fretboard (probably from the retailers not maintaining the instruments) and one guitar with a ding on it (most likely from someone trying the guitar out or mishandling it). However, I much preferred the 2019 Les Paul Standards, 2020 Les Paul Modern and 2013 Les Paul Custom (the 2015 Les Paul Custom being my least favorite). Like with any guitar or amp, I think theres going to be variation even within the same model and, in an ideal scenario, you should try out any guitar before you buy it. That being said, any mass produced product is going to result in a small percentage of issues and Gibson is one of the largest manufacturers of guitars out there.


You look at other manufacturers that play in the same price range as Gibson and you don't see these QC issues. PRS. Music Man. Fender. Suhr.

It's WIDELY known that Gibson QC is probably the worst in the business. I don't see message board posts about USA made Fenders with bad nuts causing tuning problems, finish flaws, or non-working knobs. The worst complaints I've seen about Fender are guys nitpicking that the nut slots are 2 hundredths of an inch off from where they like it.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> You look at other manufacturers that play in the same price range as Gibson and you don't see these QC issues. PRS. Music Man. Fender. Suhr.
> 
> It's WIDELY known that Gibson QC is probably the worst in the business. I don't see message board posts about USA made Fenders with bad nuts causing tuning problems, finish flaws, or non-working knobs. The worst complaints I've seen about Fender are guys nitpicking that the nut slots are 2 hundredths of an inch off from where they like it.


PRS USA is closer to Gibson CS than Gibson USA these days though.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> You look at other manufacturers that play in the same price range as Gibson and you don't see these QC issues. PRS. Music Man. Fender. Suhr.
> 
> It's WIDELY known that Gibson QC is probably the worst in the business. I don't see message board posts about USA made Fenders with bad nuts causing tuning problems, finish flaws, or non-working knobs. The worst complaints I've seen about Fender are guys nitpicking that the nut slots are 2 hundredths of an inch off from where they like it.


If you google search Fender and quality control issues, you'll see a ton of threads/posts. As for Suhr, PRS, etc, they produce alot less guitars and actually (depending on the model) tend to be more expensive. Regardless, maybe some of these brands do have better quality control (I dont know if quantitative data exists out there to definitively prove this), but that's different from people claiming that one of the most popular brands in the world's overall quality control is bad and basing this off of the negative anecdotal accounts (people with even a one off negative experience will always be more likely to be vocal than those who are content). Maybe you even had the experience yourself, but that doesn't mean its true of the entire brand or of the majority or even of a large portion of their product (the worst guitar I ever owned was an Ibanez signature series and people, generally, love that brand and what they produce).


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> If you google search Fender and quality control issues, you'll see a ton of threads/posts. As for Suhr, PRS, etc, they produce alot less guitars and actually (depending on the model) tend to be more expensive. Regardless, maybe some of these brands do have better quality control (I dont know if quantitative data exists out there to definitively prove this), but that's different from people claiming that one of the most popular brands in the world's overall quality control is bad and basing this off of the negative anecdotal accounts (people with even a one off negative experience will always be more likely to be vocal than those who are content).


Well I've owned well over a dozen Fenders and not one of them has had anywhere close to the issues I've had on my Gibson.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> It's WIDELY known that Gibson QC is probably the worst in the business.


Lots of Gibson haters out there. Although I've seen one or two bad examples of Gibson QC, I have been pleased with the 40 or so Gibson's I've owned. You've owned one - hardly a sample size to condemn a whole company.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> Well I've owned well over a dozen Fenders and not one of them has had anywhere close to the issues I've had on my Gibson.


Fair enough. I've owned both Fender and Gibson products and haven't had any issues with either. Love them both.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

I think there are more gripes about Gibson quality (and the crowd complaining is louder) because Gibson guitars are less planks of wood than your average Fender guitar. They also cost far more and expectations are proportional with price.

Gibson are more like (and marketed as) fine or antique furniture while the average non-Custom shop Strat is more like something you'd prop up against the door to stop it from swinging open.

For what it's worth, I've owned several Gibson LPs and other than the typical odd tuning issue, they've all been quality samples.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Gibson has always been top quality. I've liked the work Gibson has done in the past. It amazes me how prolific Gibson really had been. Then a couple racial slurs later, and a nasty divorce, you don't hear from him anymore. Gibson was a veritable lethal weapon, and I am still trying to hunt down the original, intended version of Payback.


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

My Traditional was 3 weeks pay and i didnt do shit those 3 weeks, sat on my ass twiddlin my thumbs. Its got all sorts of issues now. Selector, switch keeps loosening and rotating. Same with input jack. Volume and tone pot eff'd. One side of the tone shaft broke off.
Basket case but i loves her.
Getting pretty cool tones with the pots all foo'd up. If i just live with the baggage it still makes me work for love. ...thats another thread tho. Probably one for Quora. 😂


BlueRocker said:


> Lots of Gibson haters out there. Although I've seen one or two bad examples of Gibson QC, I have been pleased with the 40 or so Gibson's I've owned. You've owned one - hardly a sample size to condemn a whole company.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

It took me a long time to realize that although I have owned and still own Gibsons, I'm not a Gibson guy.

I'm a Fender guy.

Maybe it's the scale length, maybe the pickups, maybe because necessity being the mother of invention, I learned to build, rebuild and repair the guitars I (and the other guys in the bands I played in) used.

That's much easier to do with bolt on necks.

So, I guess I really don't worry about Gibson quality anymore.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Thunderboy1975 said:


> Selector, switch keeps loosening and rotating. Same with input jack.


Try wrapping some plumber's teflon tape on the threads...a few wraps. It's not as effective as a lock-nut but it may help.


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

i'll do that thanks @Paul Running


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## numb41 (Jul 13, 2009)

Paul Running said:


> Try wrapping some plumber's teflon tape on the threads...a few wraps. It's not as effective as a lock-nut but it may help.


Or a dab of loctite works well also.


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## Fuzzy dagger (Jun 3, 2016)

I am definitely a fanboy, most of my guitars are Gibsons. I love the look and feel of them, they appealed to my younger self. I don’t really lust after any other brand although I like my teles as well. 
Having said that, I’m under no illusion that every Gibson is made perfectly. I don’t think they’re overpriced, and occasionally there’s going to be a turd.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

like many of you, (albeit on a smaller scale than some) i've owned several gibsons of different models, and several strats over the years, along with other brands.

i've seen lots of pics online of gibsons with finish flaws, crooked tuners, weird binding issues. my studio pro came with a scratchy vol pot on the bridge. i wasn't impressed with the nut but it wasn't unplayable.
_but i've otherwise never seen one in person. _

for whatever reason, every strat i've ever owned, i expected it to not be perfect. i've never bought one i didn't intend to mod. i've never had a finish flaw on a strat. some poor set ups, poorly cut nuts, and one had a tiny dent in the side of the finger board. i can't really tell you why, but it never fazed me on a strat. the other brands were all "B" brands, but i don't remember anything i would consider a finish flaw. some poly that was gummy on a couple of them. most of them had set up issues, but that never bothered me.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> You look at other manufacturers that play in the same price range as Gibson and you don't see these QC issues. PRS. Music Man. Fender. Suhr.


Sure you do. I've picked up MIA Strats that felt like cheese graters because the frets were sticking out so badly. I've picked up a $2K Gretsch (Fender) that had a problem with the finish. I bought a Gretsch in that price range that had a sharp point on the Bigsby that was so bad it had to be replaced (couldn't sand it as that would have ruined the finish on a brand new guitar).





> It's WIDELY known that Gibson QC is probably the worst in the business.


Internet BS that gets amplified by those with an agenda. Despite what some people believe, your claim is not fact.




> I don't see message board posts about USA made Fenders with bad nuts causing tuning problems, finish flaws, or non-working knobs. The worst complaints I've seen about Fender are guys nitpicking that the nut slots are 2 hundredths of an inch off from where they like it.


Then you ain't paying attention.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Bill Kelliher had some interesting things to say about his endorsement with Gibson.
I'll hold to it; if you're number one in the game, it ain't cause you're the gold standard. Not in this part of the world anyhow.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I can't really complain QC-wise about any Gibson I've owned other than the inherently so-so headstock design for stable (or rather unstable) tuning. But an experienced player can handle that and knows its workarounds. Though it's probably more than luck, I always try before buy when it comes to guitars or stand-alone necks. That saves my ass.

Recently, I bought a Gibson LP CM, basically a little known inexpensive arch-top single-pickup LP Jr. type guitar. Definitely not a high end Gibson. But as soon as I picked it up and felt its neck, I knew it was a Gibson, right away it felt like part of the Gibson family - it didn't feel like an afterthought or compromise as I first suspected. The neck has a certain density that Gibson is known for and felt special, it's the solid feel you typically get w/ an LP Standard or a well built Studio. The doubtful smirk I had on my face was quickly replaced with a determination to own.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> Bill Kelliher had some interesting things to say about his endorsement with Gibson.



Old news Skippy. The company was under different management then, and the guy in charge was a twat.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

colchar said:


> Old news Skippy. The company was under different management then, and the guy in charge was a twat.


The new guy might make the pants, but he don't wear 'em. Do you think they got their act together right after Kelliher dropped them for ESP?
Also, do you happen to own a few Gibsons yourself, if you don't mind my asking (can't see why you would)?


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

I cant say shit about Fender quality because i'll never own one. Ever sinve i was 12 when i started idolizing and staring at guitars in guitar magazines. It was Mark Knopfler and the Les Paul in the Money For Nothing vid, Slash,,, nothing pierced my Gr 7 soul more then Sweet Child O Mine, sitting at the very back of the bus with GnR on full blast.
Its not just about quality all the time, fuck man its about waking something inside you, to keep it from dying, fuckin love my LP. I turn on that 12 y.o me every time this 45 y.o picks it up and rips through Limelight. 12 y.o me wouldnt give a shit about sharp frets or scratchy pots. I grew up without running water in a house tucked in the bush, 12 y.o me had to drive to a well at a friends house. Sit in a dark out house jerking off to the Sears catalogue. I fell in love with Gibsons long before the girls who handed me love notes at recess.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I have nothing bad to say about Gibson's quality or pricing. I just realized (recently actually) that the guitars I have always kept have been longer scale Fender (bolt on) style guitars.

I also idolized many Gibson players, and still do, but when it came to working as a player, I always ended up with something else.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> The new guy might make the pants, but he don't wear 'em. Do you think they got their act together right after Kelliher dropped them for ESP?
> Also, do you happen to own a few Gibsons yourself, if you don't mind my asking (can't see why you would)?


Again, this is one man's opinion based off of his experience with a company that he no longer worked with for product(s) that he no longer endorsed under a different set of management. Maybe Bill was spot on with his assessment or maybe things were even worse than he led on and he was, merely, being kind. Or, maybe Gibson had issues with working with Bill during this period and there was some form of miscommunication or conflict with the creative direction of the company. Who knows. But during this same time period, there were many artists who were happy to work/continue to work with Gibson and, Im sure, others who also moved on (as happens with any company). Regardless, let's say Bill was 100% spot on and this was true of Gibson as a whole at the time. The way that you would change the companies culture and direction (besides dissolving the company), atleast first and most significantly, would be to alter management. And that's what they did. Its very evident in the last few years that Gibson have entered into several new endorsement deals with many new high profile artists under new management and even outspoken online critics of Gibson seem to be of the opinion that, since around 2019-2020, the brand has, for the most part, turned things around. Anyways, when you've been around for as long and are as popular/large as Gibson, you're going to go through many different "eras" and aren't going to be able to please everyone.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

On balance, over my 57 years- 45 of them playing regularly, I'd say QC has been ok apart from some wacky departures in the 1970s.
I work on them regularly. They almost always set up easily, play well, sound good. For me, a minor finish flaw barely registers as an issue. It happens. Gibson still uses lacquer which wears well and is relatively easy to repair.
I could list a bunch of problems that I've seen over the years but I could do that for any company. Martin, for example, produced literally thousands of guitars in the 1970s with the bridge placed a 16th of an inch too far forward. 😆
I have a 68 335 and a 64 SG, both iconic and sound fantastic. I moved a Collings I35 in favour of the 335. The Collings was nice but the 335 has "the sound". If I just compared build quality it would be close but I'm sure the Collings would edge out the Gibson- as is the case today.

The biggest problem I have with Gibson is the cost. $7k for CS guitar is stupid. It's 100 bucks worth of wood and metal and, with CNC, not much labour. Across the high end guitar market it's a similar story though so maybe my complaint is unfounded.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

zztomato said:


> The biggest problem I have with Gibson is the cost. $7k for CS guitar is stupid.
> * It's 100 bucks worth of wood and metal and, with CNC, not much labour.*


This statement certainly made me stop and think!


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

greco said:


> This statement certainly made me stop and think!


Yeah, when you use that logic, what makes a person pull the trigger on one...maybe that's when emotion takes over.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> Again, this is one man's opinion based off of his experience with a company that he no longer worked with for product(s) that he no longer endorsed under a different set of management. Maybe Bill was spot on with his assessment or maybe things were even worse than he led on and he was, merely, being kind. Or, maybe Gibson had issues with working with Bill during this period and there was some form of miscommunication or conflict with the creative direction of the company. Who knows. But during this same time period, there were many artists who were happy to work/continue to work with Gibson and, Im sure, others who also moved on (as happens with any company). Regardless, let's say Bill was 100% spot on and this was true of Gibson as a whole at the time. The way that you would change the companies culture and direction (besides dissolving the company), atleast first and most significantly, would be to alter management. And that's what they did. Its very evident in the last few years that Gibson have entered into several new endorsement deals with many new high profile artists under new management and even outspoken online critics of Gibson seem to be of the opinion that, since around 2019-2020, the brand has, for the most part, turned things around. Anyways, when you've been around for as long and are as popular/large as Gibson, you're going to go through many different "eras" and aren't going to be able to please everyone.


That's a good response, I'd say it's even a gracious one (after the insipid nonsense I was met with in your stead elsewhere). 
My criticism is heaved at Gibson's inability to respond to what seemed like pretty basic complaints and requests from a respected client like Mastodon's Kelliher. After all, this was a band that had enjoyed mounting success over a half-dozen albums, and likely the highest profile of their career at the time. Millions of people saw and idolized them, while they're rep-ing G's product. If Gibson was able to correct I am sure they would have, but this speaks to the bloating and runaway diversification they were focused on at the time. It just doesn't look good, from all sides this is damaging to the name. And iconography, ubiquity with the popular contemporaries, are all primary facets of the Gibson brand. In so many words, they were sleeping on the job and collecting pay. Perhaps they were doing well elsewhere, I'm not sure who was being made happy and who was disappointed on the whole. Mastodon, in my opinion, had seen some undue hype, but they were always legitimate journeymen on the scene, I would trust that they put all their gear through its paces with their airtight touring schedule. So, when a major touring act says, "Hey your guitars are not up to snuff, I'm getting complaints from fans, what are you gonna do about it?"...It don't pass the smell test. 
But, brighter days are on the way, we can hope. Things recently _seem_ better but we can only wait and see if they can keep it up or refine it. Materials are certainly not getting cheaper.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

zztomato said:


> On balance, over my 57 years- 45 of them playing regularly, I'd say QC has been ok apart from some wacky departures in the 1970s.
> I work on them regularly. They almost always set up easily, play well, sound good. For me, a minor finish flaw barely registers as an issue. It happens. Gibson still uses lacquer which wears well and is relatively easy to repair.
> I could list a bunch of problems that I've seen over the years but I could do that for any company. Martin, for example, produced literally thousands of guitars in the 1970s with the bridge placed a 16th of an inch too far forward. 😆
> I have a 68 335 and a 64 SG, both iconic and sound fantastic. I moved a Collings I35 in favour of the 335. The Collings was nice but the 335 has "the sound". If I just compared build quality it would be close but I'm sure the Collings would edge out the Gibson- as is the case today.
> ...


I would love to see that 335 and the I-35(if any document of it remains). Did you have a DLX or an LC?
Also what would you say was the primary clincher that made you jump to the 335?


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## bigboki (Apr 16, 2015)

colchar said:


> Internet BS that gets amplified by those with an agenda. Despite what some people believe, your claim is not fact.


I will reply with my experience.
Went to Gibson VIP event to L&M in Toronto on April 11, 2017.
here are all the images:








2017-04-11 L&M Gibson VIP Evening - phototraveldiary


This gallery hosted by SmugMug; your photos look better here.




phototraveldiary.smugmug.com




you can see the prices of those guitars.

There was NO SIGNLE ELECTRIC guitar that would pass any normal QC. 
Semi-hollows were the worst.
They would not bother to pass even once with the sand paper for F holes after cutting it.
And not to mention neck binding, coloring defects etc...

The only positive was that Acoustic guitars were great though.

Yet people were oohing and uuuing over this relicing or that paint job etc...

I was amazed at seeing such an example of mass hypnotism AKA power of the brand...


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

The '17's..those were the years players started digging deep for used below average priced LP's.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

bigboki said:


> Yet people were oohing and uuuing over this relicing or that paint job etc...
> 
> I was amazed at seeing such an example of mass hypnotism AKA power of the brand...


Probably Apple fans.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

bigboki said:


> I will reply with my experience.
> Went to Gibson VIP event to L&M in Toronto on April 11, 2017.
> here are all the images:
> 
> ...



What colouring defects?

And just because there were issues back then, under an owner who is generally regarded as having been a bad one, does not mean those issues are endemic to the brand.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

@colchar Why was the owner bad? You seem to have undue confidence about your words; the brevity but not the wit. Why was he bad, and Mr. Blue Jeans good?


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Thunderboy1975 said:


> 12 y.o me wouldnt give a shit about sharp frets or scratchy pots.


i think that was me who mentioned the scratchy pot in my LP. i mentioned it only in the interest of being honest. i intended the entire rest of my post as a defense for gibby's QC. to be fair about it, i bought the guitar new in 2014 with the scratchy pot in it, but only removed it a couple months ago. it certainly wasn't something that bothered me much.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

cheezyridr said:


> i think that was me who mentioned the scratchy pot in my LP. i mentioned it only in the interest of being honest. i intended the entire rest of my post as a defense for gibby's QC. to be fair about it, i bought the guitar new in 2014 with the scratchy pot in it, but only removed it a couple months ago. it certainly wasn't something that bothered me much.


Did you disassemble the pot to discover the details of the fault? It would be interesting to know the cause, especially if it's chronic. I have discovered that by completely disassembling a pot, you can restore more than 75% of them. The early model pots are HQ, with brass...worth restoring. Here's a photo of a disassembly...the parts have been cleaned, inspected and readied for assembly:


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I have owned (and still do) a grand total of 3 Gibsons - a 2002 LP Std, a 2008 SG Std, and a 2007ish J-185. All exceptional, all stock - none going anywhere. The only issue across all 3 was that the nut slot for G string on the SG needed to be a bit deeper. I can't imagine ever selling the LP or the J-185. The SG? Well I don't love it like the others but it sure served a purpose when I was recovering from surgery and needed a lighter "LP style" to strap on.

I know that their quality has been questioned - especially during certain era's. That was a consideration when I purchased the 2002 LP - I had read numerous reviews stating that Gibson had really worked on their QC during that period and that 2002 - 2004 Lp's were exceptional instruments.

I have a friend with a J-200 that is pure magic BUT he tried repeatedly to get a 355 from L&M - they brought in 4 or 5 that all had twisted necks. He ended up with a Gretsch instead.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

I have not tried a Gibson without some kind of flaw since the early 80s. In their defence, I didn't by any Gibsons from the mid 80s until 2000. I bought a Les Paul Standard Plus from L&M in 2000 that had a flaw I didn't catch until I got it home. A slight delamination of the neck binding up past the 10th fret on the 1st string side. I noticed it when I slid my hand up to the 12th fret and sliced my finger so bad I could not play for two weeks. I was injured and angry so that one went back for a refund. No exchange. I bought a Gary Moore BFG online, again from L&M in 2010 that had been rough-sanded all over the body except around the stop tail. That region was missed and it gave me small slivers on the edge of my palm. Another refund. I bought a Les Paul Custom, also L&M in 2016 that developed a crack at the neck joint after about a year. I had it looked at and the tech said the neck was improperly glued and needed to be reset. That one was an exchange for a new one. I have had two Epiphone Les Pauls in that same timeframe. There were no issues at all with either one of them and after the crappy pups and pots were swapped out they were both very good guitars.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

BMW-KTM said:


> I have had two Epiphone Les Pauls in that same timeframe. There were no issues at all with either one of them and after the crappy pups and pots were swapped out they were both very good guitars.


So using the same logic, the BFG had no issues a little sandpaper couldn't fix and the Les Paul Custom had no problems a little glue couldn't fix.

You bought a BFG (*barely finished guitar*) and were surprised and disappointed by a rough finish? The Epiphone's had better QC, despite the fact they shipped with unusable pickups and pots? They were somehow very good guitars (as opposed to the bad Gibsons), but you had to replace all the parts that arguably produce more than 50% of the tone?

I read posts from people complaining about finish flaws that you need a microscope to find (not in his case just in general). My bet is a lot of folks get buyers remorse, weren't really comfortable spending the cash, and look for some sort of justification - "look at the poor quality control of my new Gibson, the control cavity screws were driven in off-angle by three degrees".


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

BMW-KTM said:


> I have not tried a Gibson without some kind of flaw since the early 80s. In their defence, I didn't by any Gibsons from the mid 80s until 2000. I bought a Les Paul Standard Plus from L&M in 2000 that had a flaw I didn't catch until I got it home. A slight delamination of the neck binding up past the 10th fret on the 1st string side. I noticed it when I slid my hand up to the 12th fret and sliced my finger so bad I could not play for two weeks. I was injured and angry so that one went back for a refund. No exchange. I bought a Gary Moore BFG online, again from L&M in 2010 that had been rough-sanded all over the body except around the stop tail. That region was missed and it gave me small slivers on the edge of my palm. Another refund. I bought a Les Paul Custom, also L&M in 2016 that developed a crack at the neck joint after about a year. I had it looked at and the tech said the neck was improperly glued and needed to be reset. That one was an exchange for a new one. I have had two Epiphone Les Pauls in that same timeframe. There were no issues at all with either one of them and after the crappy pups and pots were swapped out they were both very good guitars.


I think there's a clinical term for your kind of perseverance 😎


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

BlueRocker said:


> So using the same logic, the BFG had no issues a little sandpaper couldn't fix and the Les Paul Custom had no problems a little glue couldn't fix.
> 
> You bought a BFG (*barely finished guitar*) and were surprised and disappointed by a rough finish? The Epiphone's had better QC, despite the fact they shipped with unusable pickups and pots? They were somehow very good guitars (as opposed to the bad Gibsons), but you had to replace all the parts that arguably produce more than 50% of the tone?
> 
> I read posts from people complaining about finish flaws that you need a microscope to find (not in his case just in general). My bet is a lot of folks get buyers remorse, weren't really comfortable spending the cash, and look for some sort of justification - "look at the poor quality control of my new Gibson, the control cavity screws were driven in off-angle by three degrees".


I don't know, the man said he had 3 repeat disappointments, and for some people it would be enough to have 1. This guy had 3 from the Big G...I think you're disregarding his experience as...your bet would have it.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I have two 2015s, a 2018 and a 2020. They are all good guitars IMO. No dud frets on any of them and bends are clean everywhere. The 15s were a bit beat when I got them used but the 18 and the 20 were new right out of the box and fit an finish is excellent on both of them. The only thing was that the kluson style tuners on the 335 were low quality for a guitar that cost that much. I won’t be buying anymore electrics so Gibson guitars have worked out ok for me and that’s all I care about. Might sell a few and get down to just the 335, 2018 LP Jr and my 70th Broadcaster.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

BlueRocker said:


> So using the same logic, the BFG had no issues a little sandpaper couldn't fix and the Les Paul Custom had no problems a little glue couldn't fix.
> 
> You bought a BFG (*barely finished guitar*) and were surprised and disappointed by a rough finish?


I guess you figure that the price of a Gibson is so low that it should be expected that sections of the guitar would be sanded but not the whole thing and that the customer should obviously be expected to break out the woodworking tools to correct problems like sanding on a stained body, thereby requiring another localized staining job and completely reseting a neck. Seriously? You're going to defend a neck reset as just needing a little glue? You're going to defend a refin as just needing a little sanding? What's the weather like on your planet?


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Paul Running said:


> Did you disassemble the pot to discover the details of the fault? It would be interesting to know the cause, especially if it's chronic. I have discovered that by completely disassembling a pot, you can restore more than 75% of them. The early model pots are HQ, with brass...worth restoring. Here's a photo of a disassembly...the parts have been cleaned, inspected and readied for assembly:
> 
> View attachment 386346


the pots in question are on a greenboard. the guitar isn't something that would be better off stock for value. it's a 2014 studio pro. it's a great guitar, but there was no shortage of them in 2014. it does have the cool banner at the 12th fret though, i like that. the main reason i swapped out the pot is because i also did the pick ups, so i just pulled the entire board and put in all new everything. twice, actually because i suck at soldering with a gun. i can solder and braze pipe and sheet metal with a torch as good as anyone ever seen, but not so much with soldering gun.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

zztomato said:


> On balance, over my 57 years- 45 of them playing regularly, I'd say QC has been ok apart from some wacky departures in the 1970s.
> I work on them regularly. They almost always set up easily, play well, sound good. For me, a minor finish flaw barely registers as an issue. It happens. Gibson still uses lacquer which wears well and is relatively easy to repair.
> I could list a bunch of problems that I've seen over the years but I could do that for any company. Martin, for example, produced literally thousands of guitars in the 1970s with the bridge placed a 16th of an inch too far forward. 😆
> I have a 68 335 and a 64 SG, both iconic and sound fantastic. I moved a Collings I35 in favour of the 335. The Collings was nice but the 335 has "the sound". If I just compared build quality it would be close but I'm sure the Collings would edge out the Gibson- as is the case today.
> ...


I like this post

I’ve loved Gibson since I’ve been a kid I drooled over them. I have a bunch. They are killer. I went through a bunch to find them. 

I will never buy a new one…. Haha or apparently one of the massively overpriced used ones from the forum here either haha.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

cheezyridr said:


> i suck at soldering with a gun


Most soldering guns are heavy for prolonged use. I find that an iron is much lighter and easier to position.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

zztomato said:


> The biggest problem I have with Gibson is the cost. $7k for CS guitar is stupid. It's 100 bucks worth of wood and metal and, with CNC, not much labour. Across the high end guitar market it's a similar story though so maybe my complaint is unfounded.


I agree. Unfortunately, I think the days of Gibson being INSANELY priced in relation to the rest of their competitors are long gone. Consider that an ESP USA M-II is $3500 and the Custom Shop quote that they just gave me (which I cannot justify) for an M-style guitar was $7699, a USA PRS Custom 24 is $4000-5000 and their custom shop guitars can run into the 10s of thousands, Friedman guitars run $4000-5000, Suhr are $4000-5000, Jackson USA are $3000-5000, Ibanez Prestige models are $2000-3000+ and even Fender USA models are $2000-3000.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Every Gibson I’ve had has been fine. No QC issues on more than a dozen electrics and acoustics. They are a big name and a big target and the Internet has a way of amplifying the negative. My experience isn’t an indication of any trends with the company, just as a negative experience isn’t either.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Paul Running said:


> Most soldering guns are heavy for prolonged use. I find that an iron is much lighter and easier to position.


wrong terminology. i should have said iron. i have a nice set up, it's a hakko station. i can't blame the tool


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> I agree. Unfortunately, I think the days of Gibson being INSANELY priced in relation to the rest of their competitors are long gone. Consider that an ESP USA M-II is $3500 and the Custom Shop quote that they just gave me (which I cannot justify) for an M-style guitar was $7699, a USA PRS Custom 24 is $4000-5000 and their custom shop guitars can run into the 10s of thousands, Friedman guitars run $4000-5000, Suhr are $4000-5000, Jackson USA are $3000-5000, Ibanez Prestige models are $2000-3000+ and even Fender USA models are $2000-3000.


A Japanese custom ESP is an experience.

I have an full thickness Kiso built eclipse that has stopped my reissue gas. I keep playing r9’s trying to find one that sounds/plays as good as the ESP and still haven’t found it, just my opinion.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

tdotrob said:


> A Japanese custom ESP is an experience.
> 
> I have an full thickness Kiso built eclipse that has stopped my reissue gas. I keep playing r9’s trying to find one that sounds/plays as good as the ESP and still haven’t found it, just my opinion.


Absolutely. There are a lot of LP style guitars that are a way better value than a Gibson.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

tdotrob said:


> A Japanese custom ESP is an experience.
> 
> I have an full thickness Kiso built eclipse that has stopped my reissue gas. I keep playing r9’s trying to find one that sounds/plays as good as the ESP and still haven’t found it, just my opinion.


Sounds interesting... What does this ESP look like, and is it less costly then a Gibson CS?

Is it like this?

https://reverb.com/item/14662401-esp-eclipse-kiso-custom-shop-ctm


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

zztomato said:


> Absolutely. There are a lot of LP style guitars that are a way better value than a Gibson.


It’s funny too cause I just got an 04 LP Junior that punches so far above its weight as far as quality/tone/playability for the used price tag it had. 

Gibson does really make great guitars.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

tomee2 said:


> Sounds interesting... What does this ESP look like, and is it less costly then a Gibson CS?
> 
> Is it like this?
> 
> https://reverb.com/item/14662401-esp-eclipse-kiso-custom-shop-ctm


That is def a standard thickness eclipse which will mean super light and fun to play.


Mine is black w gold hardware and full thickness with 2 volume/2 tone. Brand new they are the same price as the Gibson Reissues but you totally spec them out, the sheet is incredible for options you decide everything. I picked mine up for $4200.

I mean apparently run off the mill Gibson LP customs go used for $5000 now hahaha and reissues are $6000 used now lol.

The LP customs aren’t even in the same league as the Kiso ESP. 

I sold two LP customs just this year cause next to the ESP’s they just were not up to snuff. But I mean I sold the 1980 for $4k and the 2010 for $3600 but hey let’s not let price gouging stand in the way of sucking each other off around here.


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## Fuzzy dagger (Jun 3, 2016)

I know there are good guitars at every price point. If I had to, I would play a down market instrument all day long. I’ve seen dance bands in bars in developing countries that got the whole Crowd up on their feet using unrecognizable brands of instruments. I buy g and f etc. guitars because I can afford them. I always buy used because I’m not that well off. No CS axes for me.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

^ Agree with that.

Though I'm not too hard up (COVID made my stocks rise considerably), there's something about buying an inexpensive guitar and landing on a good product despite its price. Some of the lesser known Gibsons have surprising quality, and the LP Studios were a bargain for decades until the cat was let out of the bag not too long ago.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

BMW-KTM said:


> I guess you figure that the price of a Gibson is so low that it should be expected that sections of the guitar would be sanded but not the whole thing and that the customer should obviously be expected to break out the woodworking tools to correct problems like sanding on a stained body, thereby requiring another localized staining job and completely reseting a neck. Seriously? You're going to defend a neck reset as just needing a little glue? You're going to defend a refin as just needing a little sanding? What's the weather like on your planet?



The BFG was not supposed to be properly finished. That was literally the entire point of them.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

tdotrob said:


> A Japanese custom ESP is an experience.
> 
> I have an full thickness Kiso built eclipse that has stopped my reissue gas. I keep playing r9’s trying to find one that sounds/plays as good as the ESP and still haven’t found it, just my opinion.


must-see. I think my first gas was an early 90's ESP Horizon, absolutely obsessed with superstrats at that time.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> must-see. I think my first gas was an early 90's ESP Horizon, absolutely obsessed with superstrats at that time.


I love horizons.


























I’ll have to grab some Eclipse pics later if your interested still.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Absolutely beautiful. Those Caparisons ....I'm speechless.

I posted mine in the "what guitar are you playing" thread. A page or two back, check it out if you're curious.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

colchar said:


> The BFG was not supposed to be properly finished. That was literally the entire point of them.


"Barely" finished means the guitar was almost completed but they skipped the last steps ... spraying.
It doesn't mean they changed the order of steps. It means they skipped the last steps.
It's called barely finished. It's not called done backwards.
The body was stained. Do guitar makers normally stain bodies before sanding? No they don't. 
Sanding was done in some areas so clearly sanding is not one of the steps they skip.
L&M agreed it was a faulty guitar, BFG or not and they took it back, where I assume they sent it back to Gibson.
Gibson would have taken it back from L&M because they have no justification.
You can't possibly be suggesting that Gibson fully expects people to get slivers.

I understand Gibson fans will want to defend Gibson but how far do you go before it becomes grasping at straws?

Slivers. The important thing is slivers. Personal injury. Blood. You can't possibly think Gibson figures that's okay.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

I'd like to ask a question. Do people here understand public liability laws at all? I mean, even a little bit?

If you do understand .... and ... if you still feel Gibson was within their right to build a guitar that gave me slivers then let me ask you this. Why didn't I have to sign a waiver before buying it that would absolve Gibson? If they know there is that possibility then ......?

Jesus, guys. Come on. Think about the world we live in. Think about corporate culture. Think about corporate safety lawyers and corporate liability lawyers and how there's no way in hell ANY lawyer is going to continue to represent Gibson if they think it's okay to sell guitars that injure people. And I don't mean people like me who use a guitar as it was intended to be used. I mean complete idiots who don't know a thing about guitars. Big corporations go out of their way to idiot proof their products.

All I'm asking for is a little rational thought.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

BMW-KTM said:


> Big corporations go out of their way to idiot proof their products.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

BMW-KTM said:


> I'd like to ask a question. Do people here understand public liability laws at all? I mean, even a little bit?
> 
> If you do understand .... and ... if you still feel Gibson was within their right to build a guitar that gave me slivers then let me ask you this. Why didn't I have to sign a waiver before buying it that would absolve Gibson? If they know there is that possibility then ......?
> 
> ...


where do you shop that you had to sign a liability waiver to buy a guitar? i've been buying guitars since 1982, and no one has ever asked me to sign a waiver, or anything like it.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

cheezyridr said:


> where do you shop that you had to sign a liability waiver to buy a guitar? i've been buying guitars since 1982, and no one has ever asked me to sign a waiver, or anything like it.


... and the reason for that is because ..... ??

It's because you never encountered a guitar for sale in a guitar store in which the manufacturer knowingly built a guitar that could injure you. That's why you never had to sign a waiver.


_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


We are getting off track here so I will remind folks how this got started. It was suggested to me that all it would take was a little glue to correct a guitar with a loose neck and all it would take was a bit of sandpaper to correct the sliver guitar issues, implying that it's perfectly normal for the customer to have to deal with these kinds of things on their own. I do not agree with that and I did mention that I returned the guitars. That should have been the end of it but then somehow the conversation shifted into a kind of "Gibson is blameless" sort of thing when it was suggested to me that I should expect to get slivers from a BFG because after all, that's the whole point. The natural conclusion to be drawn from that point is that Gibson doesn't care if their guitar gave people slivers; they're going to sell it anyway. I disagree with that because I say it is a mistake that slipped past QC. It is not my contention that Gibson knowingly sold a hazardous guitar. It is my contention that if selling hazardous guitars was their intent then they would have people sign waivers.

Try as you might fellas, you won't bait me off topic. The point of my original comment was to simply state that I had a string of Gibson QC issues that I did not encounter many years ago. It was just a statement of fact. You guys are the ones who felt the need to challenge me and try to steer the conversation somewhere else.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

BMW-KTM said:


> ... and the reason for that is because ..... ??
> 
> It's because you never encountered a guitar for sale in a guitar store in which the manufacturer knowingly built a guitar that could injure you. That's why you never had to sign a waiver.
> 
> ...


If you go back and read my post, it said "using the same logic, all you need is a little sandpaper" - it was not meant to be taken literally, just comparing it to you saying the Epiphone was a great guitar once you pulled out and replaced everything that made sound.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

BlueRocker said:


> If you go back and read my post, it said "using the same logic, all you need is a little sandpaper" - it was not meant to be taken literally, just comparing it to you saying the Epiphone was a great guitar once you pulled out and replaced everything that made sound.


So .... trying to twist my comment into something else. Applying logic from one thing onto something else entirely .... that was your idea. Not mine. Thank you for admitting your place as the first stepping stone into nowhere land. 


My impulse is to ask if we can please be done with this sidetrack and get back on topic but I know there is the possibility it might make it worse.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

A couple jack-asses with blinders on over there. Just say "Gibson!" and they pucker up, confused by the fact that a Leading brand instrument that costs up and over 2K is _definitely_ not supposed to give you splinters, or any injuries for that matter, maybe a bad back if you're one of those dusty ol' buttdivers (they know who they are)


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

No guitar should be in the condition described. Unfortunately, these things happen for a small percentage of products in most manufacturing processes and thats why purchasing from a retailer/brand with a reputable return policy is important (especially when purchasing something online). The worst guitar I ever owned was an Ibanez Signature Series that had a razor sharp bridge and fret ends that jutted out (split my finger wide open once) and extremely buzzy electronics (if you touched the selector switch in the right spot it would make the guitar go haywire when playing with any degree of gain). I get it. It sucks.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Glad I haven't read this thread; seems like a load of horse shit and hatred.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

Wardo said:


> Glad I haven't read this thread; seems like a load of horse shit and hatred.


It didn't start out that way. I made a factual comment about my experiences and then the sparks started flying. I hope it is over now.



Mike_Blaszk said:


> No guitar should be in the condition described. Unfortunately, these things happen for a small percentage of products in most manufacturing processes and thats why purchasing from a retailer/brand with a reputable return policy is important (especially when purchasing something online). The worst guitar I ever owned was an Ibanez Signature Series that had a razor sharp bridge and fret ends that jutted out (split my finger wide open once) and extremely buzzy electronics (if you touched the selector switch in the right spot it would make the guitar go haywire when playing with any degree of gain). I get it. It sucks.


I have made three online guitar purchases in my life. Two of them were bad experiences and one was good. I've learned my lesson. I no longer buy gear sight unseen. A 66% failure rate is too steep for my blood.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Wardo said:


> Glad I haven't read this thread; seems like a load of horse shit and hatred.


If you love or hate, you are on a better track than the indifference posed by the members you tend to.
So I think if someone has any experience with Gibson, and it's not a marked "eh", it's valuable to discuss it rather than swat it down because you're feeling insecure about your choices (past or present).
I myself have not had an ownership experience with Gibson. I have loved them and I have hated them, I have admired and respected many musicians who emblemize the Gibson brand. But a guitar is a piece of wood with strings, and music lives in you (your hands, your ears, your brain, your pulse etc.) not in the wood and strings. It all comes down to ergonomics and aesthetics. Plus, I think some actually like a challenge of having to play a difficult instrument...I think this is why we have all chosen the guitar, because despite all the ways you can learn to play music on it, the story is still being written. It's being written by us who love the guitar.
Unfortunately, there is also the business industry; that they will push and push and push the units out the door whether there is demand or not. I posit that this is the reason why defects become egregious and harmful to the brand...but of course, money makes the trees grow so we can cut them down for more guitars.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

BMW-KTM said:


> ... and the reason for that is because ..... ??
> 
> It's because you never encountered a guitar for sale in a guitar store in which the manufacturer knowingly built a guitar that could injure you. That's why you never had to sign a waiver.
> 
> ...



ok, now i see that i did not read it properly. you didn't say that you signed a waiver. that was my fault for not using reading comprehension skills. a rookie mistake on my part, that i call others out for all the time




Mutant_Guitar said:


> I think some actually like a challenge of having to play a difficult instrument...


i don't think it's the way you meant it, but indeed, i have had a couple guitars that i liked alot, that were difficult to play well. for some reason, they seemed to sound best when i was "fighting with them".


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> If you love or hate, you are on a better track than the indifference posed by the members you tend to.


Tend to what? I ain’t “tending” to anyone.
Your comments don’t make sense.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

cheezyridr said:


> i don't think it's the way you meant it, but indeed, i have had a couple guitars that i liked alot, that were difficult to play well. for some reason, they seemed to sound best when i was "fighting with them".


No, you got me right. I meant it this way first and in the theoretical sense second.
For example, Gypsy Jazz guitarist have extremely high action and a short, brittle attack, lots of staccato and pizzicato. This is by no means an easy instrument, you do have to fight...but that's how you make your claim. I think until the latter half of the 20th century the guitar was viewed as a bastard instrument, not fit for most ensemble playing. It was up to the early fighters to develop the vocabulary that we now so often take for granted. 12tones over 4 or 5 octaves doesn't exactly extend to infinity, but the inflections and attitudes you apply create those infinite premutations.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Wardo said:


> Tend to what? I ain’t “tending” to anyone.
> Your comments don’t make sense.


I apologize for my presumption, what I had perceived as an air of indifference. 
I've been chomping the bit, and seeing red too often these days.
A few folks around these parts seem to do little else but nurture a callous attitude. I am sincerely apologizing if that is not the case for you. 
Now which comments do you take issue with, plural. I value a discussion, and if you take issue, I think the onus is on me to respond.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

cheezyridr said:


> ...for some reason, they seemed to sound best when i was "fighting with them".


Funny, I had the opposite experience - though I do know what you mean.

I sold a 10lb+ LP Studio last year because I was fighting its pork-like weight. Great Gibson guitar, but it tended to discourage creativity even though its tone and well-built nature was an inspiration. Its heft usually won the battle though, so buh-bye porker.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> … I think the onus is on me to respond.


Drop it.
I don’t feel like arguing with some tweeker on a message board.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

FatStrat2 said:


> Funny, I had the opposite experience - though I do know what you mean.
> 
> I sold a 10lb+ LP Studio last year because I was fighting its pork-like weight. Great Gibson guitar, but it tended to discourage creativity even though it's tone and well-built nature was an inspiration. Its heft usually won the battle though, so buh-bye porker.


hehe, it's a war of attrition. I've been chopping away with my 8string...gonna take a guess and say it's around 10-12lbs. Back stretch is a must


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Wardo said:


> Drop it.
> I don’t feel like arguing with some tweeker on a message board.


Well there you go. You respond with indifference and an insult heaved my way. You've also relegated to self-defeat (you don't feel up to it), and I never implied that it should go that way because we could just as easily find a copacetic dialogue.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

BMW-KTM said:


> I'd like to ask a question. Do people here understand public liability laws at all? I mean, even a little bit?


Ok, class action against gibson for slivers and such. It settles out of court. The members of the class each get a coupon for a new set of strings and the law firm gets costs in the neighborhood of 5 mil. Sound about right .. lol

Claim inter alia for loss of enjoyment, loss of competitive advantage, negligent infliction of psychological distress and with a mit full of splinters the palm sisters are gonna be out of action for awhile so add loss of consortium to the list.

I ascribe to the doctrine of facts, law, chaos. First, argue the facts, if that doesn’t work argue the law and if that doesn’t work create as much shit as you can .. lol


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Haha the palm sisters. Always there when you need them. Splinter free hopefully.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Wardo said:


> Ok, class action against gibson for slivers and such. It settles out of court. The members of the class each get a coupon for a new set of strings and the law firm gets costs in the neighborhood of 5 mil. Sound about right .. lol


i have seen this first hand. i knew a girl who was using a 5 year birth control. it was 5 tubes in her shoulder that were about 1/8" diam X 1" long. for 5 years, she bled every day. one day she learned of a class action suit against them, and she submitted her info. this was...94? the lawsuit was for millions and millions of dollars. i was there when her check arrived. we were real excited thinking she was going to get a fat payday. her check was $14.87


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