# Lesson on Improvising



## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

There are ways the pros make everything sound awesome when improvising. This is one of them.

I could listen to this guy for days.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Moosehead said:


> pros make everything sound awesome


He's good
There's an interesting assumption that sounding awesome is the goal. 
Maybe it's not always the goal. 
Mary Halvorsen is at a different end of what it means to improvise on guitar. Not (always) groove based. Not necessarily melodic. Definitely intentional and she is absolutely professional. 
What does it mean to improvise well?


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> He's good
> There's an interesting assumption that sounding awesome is the goal.
> Maybe it's not always the goal.
> Mary Halvorsen is at a different end of what it means to improvise on guitar. Not (always) groove based. Not necessarily melodic. Definitely intentional and she is absolutely professional.
> What does it mean to improvise well?


It looks to me that she's reading from a chart everything she's playing. I don't think she's improvising is she?


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

player99 said:


> It looks to me that she's reading from a chart everything she's playing. I don't think she's improvising is she?


that's true in that set
she also does improvise but i should have picked a different link. that's my mistake. 
my sister free improvises with a musical partner and i was thinking of putting on an improviser's show this summer just to see what that scene is like in person. we got into the weeds amazingly quickly about what kind of improvising 'counts' as 'real'. If it has a groove is that good or bad? If there is a chord progression is that good or bad? If there is lyrical line is that good or bad? what does 'free' mean? does 'free improvisation' mean that you are not free to include rhythm chord progression or lyrical line? are free improvising, jazz improvising, blues improvising, and rock improvising compatible or not? if it's popular does that mean that it's good or that it's bad improvising? if it's pleasing to the ear by some conventional standard does that mean it's not 'real' improvising?


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> What does it mean to improvise well?


I guess it's like "good music" depends on listeners expectations.

The way I was taught, improv = storytelling, of course there's stuff like Coltrane Interstellar Space, Ornette Coleman... that are more out there.
I like the emphasis on rhythms in the OP's post, rhythms is often the poor parent when talking about improv.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Derek_T said:


> rhythms is often the poor parent when talking about improv


what was surprising to me talking to my sister about it was that in some free improv circles one of the hard line rules of entry was that there could be no rhythmic stability. remove all foundations including rhythm and then you're set to really improvise. i like a foundation to improvise from so that gets off into a weird headspace for me but interesting. what you're left with is either explorations of randomness or a kind of impressionistic stream of consciousness that listens a bit like james joyce reads on the page
j


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> what was surprising to me talking to my sister about it was that in some free improv circles one of the hard line rules of entry was that there could be no rhythmic stability. remove all foundations including rhythm and then you're set to really improvise. i like a foundation to improvise from so that gets off into a weird headspace for me but interesting. what you're left with is either explorations of randomness or a kind of impressionistic stream of consciousness that listens a bit like james joyce reads on the page
> j


I always get a kick out of the "hardcore" improvisational crowd. How can there be no rules with so many rules? It's an odd pursuit to say the least and an even more eclectic musical form.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Mark Brown said:


> How can there be no rules with so many rules?


the way she describes it to me is that they need some parameters like a fence to keep from being bulldozed by the jam bands and acid jazz combos who can pull in big crowds of enthusiastic people to jump up and down while they do their thing over a groove base. that leaves the people dragging chairs across a concrete floor or banging on squeaky toys while wearing a shark suit feeling like they've got no place for their 'pure' artistry so they put up some rules that they can be free within

it is weird no doubt about it, but kinda cool as well. at first i thought about it sort of like some people talk about jazz - it's just random noise anybody could do that it's not music - but with the possibility of a show coming up we've been talking about doing some improvising together and i've been trying it on my own. it's tough to play something with intention and confidence that doesn't fall into known forms or harmonic structure or snippets quoted from stuff you already know how to play

j


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> the way she describes it to me is that they need some parameters like a fence to keep from being bulldozed by the jam bands and acid jazz combos who can pull in big crowds of enthusiastic people to jump up and down while they do their thing over a groove base. that leaves the people dragging chairs across a concrete floor or banging on squeaky toys while wearing a shark suit feeling like they've got no place for their 'pure' artistry so they put up some rules that they can be free within
> 
> it is weird no doubt about it, but kinda cool as well. at first i thought about it sort of like some people talk about jazz - it's just random noise anybody could do that it's not music - but with the possibility of a show coming up we've been talking about doing some improvising together and i've been trying it on my own. it's tough to play something with intention and confidence that doesn't fall into known forms or harmonic structure or snippets quoted from stuff you already know how to play
> 
> j


I would say those arguments stand.

Another question perhaps is when does music stop being "music" and become sound?

Not that there is not an artistry to sound creation, I'm not trying to be cynical or condescending here, just is there a deviation?

I would argue that without rhythm there is no "music" as that is the basis of the understanding of the concept.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Mark Brown said:


> music stop being "music" and become sound?


and at what point is the sound not the focus either and it becomes free form performance art that includes the colour of the squeaky toy and the shark suit and the sound and the visual and the experience of sitting in a particular chair in the presence of that process

in my mind the stuff that jen and ida do is a bit hard to listen to in performance in a concert hall but makes perfect sense as film soundtrack or something to listen to as i work. that sense of it being a secondary accessory to another process grates against the performance art idea and neither of them are necessarily music

i think i hijacked somebody's perfectly good victor wooten thread. i do like victor wooten quite a lot. 

j


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> He's good
> There's an interesting assumption that sounding awesome is the goal.
> Maybe it's not always the goal.
> Mary Halvorsen is at a different end of what it means to improvise on guitar. Not (always) groove based. Not necessarily melodic. Definitely intentional and she is absolutely professional.
> What does it mean to improvise well?


that sounds like my high school music class. 

Teacher asked what key I was playing in? Well, all of them, I replied.

Obviously much better musicians but that first five minutes sounded like everyone doing their own thing in different keys. It got better as I typed this but was still weird even by jazz standards.

To improvise well I think you have a sense of where you want to go. and when you don’t know really where you’re going (often my case) sometimes things work and sometimes they don’t. As was shown in the OP, pros can make things work when they otherwise wouldn’t when the avg guy did it in a jam with his basement band. 

take out the rhythmic stability and I’m lost. I fall back On the rhythmic groove heavily when improvising.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

He summed up a lot of great experience in that one video. Thanks for posting @Moosehead !


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

I love using half- Whole scales with pentatonic Blues scales.
Like working off the minor 3rd in Blues scale ( A, C, D, E, G, A ) , then using the half- Whole scale ( A, A#, C, C#, D#, E, F#, G, A ) , starting off the C note and working in a " little box" to play outside notes .
I started doing that after seeing Randy Rhoads pulling those things off on stage back in 1981 with Ozzy Osbourne.

You can use those outside notes while using Chromatic scales, the Pentatonic minor, Blues minor scale, Natural minor, Melodic minor or Harmonic minor.

Back then, I didn't have a Floyd Rose yet, so I dug into Allan Holdsworth and John Scofield to get some Erie outside tension and it usually adds tension to the solo or adds odd chording to rhythm playing.

Heck, I forgot most of my theory and it's kind of like driving drunk, blind folded and winding driving home safe ... without being pulled over and waking up with out a hang over and the wife is in a good mood, ready to give me breakfast in bed .... that's how I feel when I play outside notes and not having a train wreck !!!! 😆👍


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

AJ6stringsting said:


> I love using half- Whole scales with pentatonic Blues scales.
> Like working off the minor 3rd in Blues scale ( A, C, D, E, G, A ) , then using the half- Whole scale ( A, A#, C, C#, D#, E, F#, G, A ) , starting off the C note and working in a " little box" to play outside notes .
> I started doing that after seeing Randy Rhoads pulling those things off on stage back in 1981 with Ozzy Osbourne.
> 
> ...


Thus those scales lend themselves nicely in to Chromatic, minor, Augmented and diminish scales , so nicely. 

Even more fun and it's entertaining, is that you can just move one of the patterns up or down the fretboard and fall back into the scale you deviated from ....TRY IT !!!! 😱

🙂👍


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

AJ6stringsting said:


> Thus those scales lend themselves nicely in to Chromatic, minor, Augmented and diminish scales , so nicely.
> 
> Even more fun and it's entertaining, is that you can just move one of the patterns up or down the fretboard and fall back into the scale you deviated from ....TRY IT !!!! 😱
> 
> 🙂👍


you can play a diminished chord scale on each degree of the h/w tone scale as well. Each note of the diminished chord scale can exit into any chord quality by step or half-step, making it perfect to set up a cadence into any chord. And diminished chord scales a minor 3rd apart are inversions of each other and can be used interchangeably. It goes on and on.


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

AJ6stringsting said:


> I love using half- Whole scales with pentatonic Blues scales.
> Like working off the minor 3rd in Blues scale ( A, C, D, E, G, A ) , then using the half- Whole scale ( A, A#, C, C#, D#, E, F#, G, A ) , starting off the C note and working in a " little box" to play outside notes .
> I started doing that after seeing Randy Rhoads pulling those things off on stage back in 1981 with Ozzy Osbourne.
> 
> ...


would you mind making a video demo of what you’re talking about? I know basic theory but Im an auditory learner and a video would be greatly appreciated. A quick phone video would suffice. you can make a YouTube vid private so it’s just for us on the forum.

i feel like those outside notes are exactly what I’m looking to ad to my soloing. I feel like I kind of get what you’re talking about but when I’m driving blindfolded I’m ending up in the ditch.


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

Moosehead said:


> i feel like those outside notes are exactly what I’m looking to ad to my soloing. I feel like I kind of get what you’re talking about but when I’m driving blindfolded I’m ending up in the ditch.


If I may offer a different perspective, if not a video.

In my experience learning Jazz and improvisation, the difficult thing when using outside notes is that it's more than using a specific set of scales. Your lines still have to make sense, have a purpose, a direction.

Generally "outside" notes are used to add tension that eventually resolves somewhere. It's a tool that helps drive the melody.

Let's say you're in Dm, (just one chord) you have Dm pentatonic and let's say D dorian in this case, then the question is how to weave this new "colors" / scale into your lines in a fluid way, so from a listener perspective, it sounds like you're going somewhere and not playing random wrong notes ?

I don't know if there's a best answer to that question all I can tell you is what worked for me (or at least yield results, because I still suck at it, but less than I used to):

Develop your ear, listen to players that use dissonance and tension in their playing (Jazz is a great place to start) 
Knowledge of functional harmony to understand what is happening.
Knowledge of harmonic block: ii-V, IV-iv,... to understand the relationship between the chords.
Visual knowledge of the fretboard to know where you are going.
I know, it does not sound remotely as sexy as a couple of nice juicy jazzy licks you can just plug into solos to sound hype. But it's going to give you much more freedom to improvise.

Going back to the Dm example, loop the chord, and work with one concept idea at a time. For instance "chromatisme", try to do 2 bars of penta / dorian then on bar 3 you use chromatisme and on bar 4 back to penta / dorian only. Try to put your focus on the transition, especially the landing part on bar 4 by targeting a chord tone so the listener really gets the idea that we moved somewhere else and now we're back.

You can do the same exercise but now moving a half step up on bar 3 then moving back down on bar 4.

It's a lot of stuff to pack into a post, hope this helps you in a way.


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

Derek_T said:


> If I may offer a different perspective, if not a video.
> 
> In my experience learning Jazz and improvisation, the difficult thing when using outside notes is that it's more than using a specific set of scales. Your lines still have to make sense, have a purpose, a direction.
> 
> ...


You just answered everyone's question.

I forgot most of my theory, I just wing it now and seem to land on my feet a lot.

Maybe when I play, my subconscious takes me on autopilot mode .


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> you can play a diminished chord scale on each degree of the h/w tone scale as well. Each note of the diminished chord scale can exit into any chord quality by step or half-step, making it perfect to set up a cadence into any chord. And diminished chord scales a minor 3rd apart are inversions of each other and can be used interchangeably. It goes on and on.


Yup, I forgot to add that you can mix in Central Asian / Middle Eastern scales too .


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