# The Chinese Dilemma......



## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

OK.., we've all seen those adds for chinese copies, something been passed as the real deal, BUT how many have tried them?. Yesturday i bought a Gibson SG Standard from a friend i had'nt seen in 20 years almost, greath guitar player, and funny all around guy. SO, he starts showing his guitars and he as a LOT, but after the first, i realise, that dude can't afford all that stuff, so the second one he hands to me, i start checking..and i was amazed at the craftmanship to be honest, a LP Custom Shop replica, worst thing, it played REALY greath as well, action was insane, and even sounded good!...he Had 2 Gibby copy, the LP and Custom SG as well. To a point where i was wondering..do i get a copy or the real thing!.. He had a few Fender copies as well. 

NOW, knowing how well those 2 played, i got to be honnest, i'll keep my eye for them in the future. 

m 2 cents....what's yours?


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## Gene Machine (Sep 22, 2007)

*that's a fuzzy line*

I think that the counterfitters should be prosecuted within the extent of the law. It's a crime, period.

OK, now that that's said, if you know enough to tell the difference, and the price you pay reflects that it's a copy, I don't see the harm in buying one that is already on the market in the country. I don't see why a copy chinese gibson should be any more than a few hundred bucks.

There are other people making hand made gibson replicas with gibson on the headstock, like GuitarShop who made a bunch of LPs. They show up at Capsule Music in toronto from time to time. Also, Slash's first LP was a copy. And a lot of people make strat copies, annd put a fender water decal on the headstock. 

As long as a copy is sold as a copy, I don't see the issue on the resale side of things.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

I agree Gene..but what suprised me was how well they were built!...and played realy


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Guys..my point is not the legal stuff realy as to how good they can be and play. I do understand the lega aspect of been a copy, but that's the market now a days. China is flooding the market with Copies of almost everything, from Gibson to iPods, etc etc. and Some of thhose things are as good as the original, or damn close realy


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Paul said:


> If selling a new copy is theft, (intellectual property is still property), then re-selling is still wrong.
> 
> If there is absolutely no re-sale market, there wouldn't be a new sale market.
> 
> Rickenbacker is the most agressive in protecting IP rights.


I think China in general, does not have the same view of intellectual property as we have in the West. I work in software development, and there have been many instances of a product going to China for support/development, and then an identical product being released by a Chinese company, right down to exact same code running. This has happened so often now that high tech companies (and their customers) have serious issues with allowing development work to move to China. 

I think this same mindset is applied to any product which is developed/manufactured in China. They do not see it as intellectual property theft, even though its probably the textbook definition by our standards.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

I'm not at all surprised by how well the Chinese can make a guitar, whether it's a copy or not. I can appreciate a super playable, well-made guitar regardless of its country of origin. The contemporary Hagstrom Swedes I've messed with blow me away with their fit and finish and I've also played some very nice low-end MIC Washburns.

That said, I'm not interested in owning a counterfeit guitar. I have no problem with buying great tributes to iconic guitar styles made by companies other than Fender or Gibson - as long as they don't slap Fender and Gibson logos on them and try to pass them off as authentic.

On a related note, I'm seeing a lot of Tokai LPs on Craigslist Toronto lately and someone warned me that there are tons of Chinese-made fakes and to be very careful. Anyone else hear anything about this? Funny when you think of it, since Tokai made a name for itself by building great copies of Strats and LPs by the boatload... now they're being counterfeited.


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## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

al3d said:


> Guys..my point is not the legal stuff realy as to how good they can be and play. I do understand the lega aspect of been a copy, but that's the market now a days. China is flooding the market with Copies of almost everything, from Gibson to iPods, etc etc. and Some of thhose things are as good as the original, or damn close realy


You're right about the quality of some of these. I've played a couple that were better than new gibsons by a long shot. They are not the same clones that hit the market a few years back, these are now very well made instruments, it's just too bad they have chosen to brand them the way they have.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

I wouldn't touch a counterfeit even if it was free. 

I have nothing against Chinese guitars, buy an Epi, buy a Chinese Fender, whatever. My big box Yamaha was made in Indonesia, it's not bad at all.

But there is only one reason to steal someone else's logo, and that is ultimately to try to pass it off as the real thing. And if the manufacturer actually thinks their guitars have decent quality, put their own logo on it and stand behind it. There are a few Chinese manufacturers doing this today.

Real replicas are a whole different thing IMO. Guitar Clinics, Max's, etc were built at a time that Gibson did not have the reissues, so you couldn't buy one built like the old ones. And they would never be passed off as a real Gibson, the owner would lose money.


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

Sounds like they are just practising capitalism^2


People may shop with their ears, but they buy with their wallet. If there is a market for a black market, it will do very well and IP be dammed in the court of public opinion.

Good for those boycotting.




bagpipe said:


> ...I work in software development, and there have been many instances of a product going to China for support/development, and then an identical product being released by a Chinese company, right down to exact same code running......


He who goes to a pickpocket convention with his wallet, loses it! :wink:

Cheers!


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

There's also way more to it than just the legal aspects. Cheap is not cheap.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I always play a guitar before buying it--and am not against copy guitars, but I agree with most of the above that selling a copy with the logo of the company you're copying is wrong. Even if the seller is upfront about it being a copy--it still smells funny.


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## vds5000 (Apr 14, 2008)

dwagar said:


> I wouldn't touch a counterfeit even if it was free.
> 
> I have nothing against Chinese guitars, buy an Epi, buy a Chinese Fender, whatever. My big box Yamaha was made in Indonesia, it's not bad at all.
> 
> ...


"Real replicas"??? Guitar Clinic LPs were still Gibson rip offs, albeit well made ones - possibly better made than the originals. I believe the 'Heritage Series' reissue Les Pauls by Gibson were made as early as the early 80's. When did Guitar Clinic start making their LP ripoffs?


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2008)

If the Chinese want to copy American guitars and can do as good a job then great for them. I'll buy it. Guitars are pieces of wood that make music. Nobody owns a patent on a square, a circle or a triangle and I certainly don't see why they should on any other particular shape or dimension. Guitars are tools just like hammers and saws. Americans need to get used to the idea that they are no longer the top cock on the rock. Rome is burning and the emperor has no clothes. BTW, I'm buying an American made Agile LP copy and I'm going to sleep like a friggin baby once I get it under my bed.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

The _reasons_ it's cheaper are the main reasons I wouldn't touch one of these with a 39 1/2 foot pole, not legal issues over copyright and/or patent violation (although fender and Gibson most certainly do have patents on their designs, although enforcement seems to have come down to headstock shape in both cases).
cheap is not cheap.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

konasexone said:


> IBTW, I'm buying an American made Agile LP copy and I'm going to sleep like a friggin baby once I get it under my bed.


Just so you know Konasexone, Rondo is an American-owned company but all of their guitars are made in either Korea (the Agile line) or China. No way could their gear be as dirt-cheap as it is if they did it all in North America.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

devnulljp said:


> The _reasons_ it's cheaper are the main reasons I wouldn't touch one of these with a 39 1/2 foot pole, not legal issues over copyright and/or patent violation (although fender and Gibson most certainly do have patents on their designs, although enforcement seems to have come down to headstock shape in both cases).
> cheap is not cheap.


Would you use a 40 ft pole? Copies from the early days took advantage of very very low wages. Add the advancement of CNC machining and you have the ability to put out a lot of product. The cheap is not cheap is going to cost the Asians a lot further down the road.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

The Chinese Gibson copies I have played have been complete shite.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

konasexone said:


> BTW, I'm buying an American made Agile LP copy and I'm going to sleep like a friggin baby once I get it under my bed.



Agiles are NOT made in the US. They are either Korean.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

WEll..we have many different opinions i can see. Mine is...I don't give a crapper about violation or else, the American have been doing it for YEARS, now it's theit turn to get it up the yatsy.

Quality wise, like i said in my first post, the 2 i tried were VERY well made and played like a charm, so i'll be on the lookout for those from now. i'm sure you can end-up with a lemon, but that's why i would'nt "order" one of those.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

vds5000 said:


> "Real replicas"??? Guitar Clinic LPs were still Gibson rip offs, albeit well made ones - possibly better made than the originals. I believe the 'Heritage Series' reissue Les Pauls by Gibson were made as early as the early 80's. When did Guitar Clinic start making their LP ripoffs?


Gibson neglected details such as the long neck tenon until about '93, their early attempts at a reissue were lacking. Yes replicas are rip offs too, I'd rather they had their own logos.

I actually saw on one of the LP forums, a guy had an old counterfeit LP, he thinks it might be a GC - I guess then it'd be worth more money. If they had a Guitar Clinic logo, that wouldn't be a problem. Unless, I guess, Chinese started copying them.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

I still only can see two reasons to buy a counterfeit:
- either to one day try to pass it off as a real one when you sell it
- or to pretend to yourself and your friends you actually have the real guitar.

I have no problem with someone using a body style, be it a Les Paul, Strat, Gretsch, whatever. But they should do it under their company name. When you buy, say, an Agile, you have a level of expectation of what you are getting. And Agile has a requirement to maintain that, or they'd lose their market. When you buy a guitar made by some unknown in a dirt floor factory, you have no idea what you're getting. And it doesn't cost any more to buy a real brand.

Unless of course you want to pretend you have the real deal. But don't tell me you're buying it because of its quality.


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

To each his own, vive la difference.

Personally, I will never own a guitar which says "Fender", or "Gibson", unless it is the real deal.

I would proudly wear a "Timex" watch, never a fake "Rolex".


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

rhh7 said:


> To each his own, vive la difference.
> 
> Personally, I will never own a guitar which says "Fender", or "Gibson", unless it is the real deal.
> 
> I would proudly wear a "Timex" watch, never a fake "Rolex".


Agreed, you'll never sell a fake for as much...and, more importantly, the fake market is a good reason for those with money and GAS to do their due diligence when it come to buying the "real Thing"...probably a big reason that these companies build this shiite is that they can get away with it due to ignorance of the buying public...


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

another thing to keep in mind, it isn't just Gibson (aka the Evil Empire) that's getting knocked off. They are knocking off anything they can sell: Fender, Gretsch, Ibanez, hell, even Epiphone. There's a long thread running on the MLP forums about how to know if you bought a fake Epi. 
These guys are buying these guitars thinking they are real. It's fraud, it's theft, it is criminal.
Young guys that saved their pennies to finally buy their first Epi, then find out they got ripped off. Bad shit.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

nonreverb said:


> Agreed, you'll never sell a fake for as much...and, more importantly, the fake market is a good reason for those with money and GAS to do their due diligence when it come to buying the "real Thing"...probably a big reason that these companies build this shiite is that they can get away with it due to ignorance of the buying public...


Very true. It also bothers me that these fakes are worth more than a handmade guitar the doesn't have the fake name on it.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

With companies like Ibanez, Agile and Xaviere, why fool around with unknown copies to save another $20.00-$30.00?

http://www.ibanez.co.jp/world/country/frame_canada.html
http://www.rondomusic.com/
http://store.guitarfetish.com/index.html


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

FlipFlopFly said:


> With companies like Ibanez, Agile and Xaviere, why fool around with unknown copies to save another $20.00-$30.00?
> 
> http://www.ibanez.co.jp/world/country/frame_canada.html
> http://www.rondomusic.com/
> http://store.guitarfetish.com/index.html


Exactly. And you probably won't save the $20 anyway.

I was perusing Craigslist Calgary this AM, an Epi SG special for sale for $99. You want a dirt cheap guitar, there you go.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

dwagar said:


> Exactly. And you probably won't save the $20 anyway.
> 
> I was perusing Craigslist Calgary this AM, an Epi SG special for sale for $99. You want a dirt cheap guitar, there you go.


i agree..with don't knock the chinese quality before actually trying one in your hands. for 350$ you get a LOT more cractmanship then a EPi or cheap ibanez...i'm not debating the fact that it's illegal to copy those...but as someone sais, in China, they don't have the same way of looking at things as we do. I've had a chat with one of the dude selling those in China, and he was very clear that they are NOT gibson, but Gibsun guitars hehe...OH..ok..totaly different thing i guess..


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

al3d said:


> cractmanship


I know that you mean craftmanship. But I fail to see how a factory made guitar punched out on an automated line with as little hand work AS physically possible count's a craftmanship. Do you consider a car built with craftmanship? To me the craftmanship is in the design and layout assembly of the FACTORY not the guitar,


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

shoretyus said:


> I know that you mean craftmanship. But I fail to see how a factory made guitar punched out on an automated line with as little hand work AS physically possible count's a craftmanship. Do you consider a car built with craftmanship? To me the craftmanship is in the design and layout assembly of the FACTORY not the guitar,


do you think Gibbies and Fenders are still hand made?..it's all C&C mate. even the CS stuff starts by been all done on machines.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

al3d said:


> do you think Gibbies and Fenders are still hand made?..it's all C&C mate. even the CS stuff starts by been all done on machines.


not entirely true my friend...yes the bodies are cut out with machines... but finishing and small details are still done by hand. The sanding and finishing is still done by hand the paint scraping on the binding is done by hand as well...why do you think Gibsons are so expensive? The archtops like Byrdlands and L5's are still fine tuned by Luthiers...I have a Byrdland and it's signed by the Luthier who tuned and assembled it....you won't find that on any Chinese guitar...


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## Greg Ellis (Oct 1, 2007)

FlipFlopFly said:


> With companies like Ibanez, Agile and Xaviere, why fool around with unknown copies to save another $20.00-$30.00?
> 
> http://www.ibanez.co.jp/world/country/frame_canada.html
> http://www.rondomusic.com/
> http://store.guitarfetish.com/index.html


Wow, some of those Xaviere's look amazing!

Has anyone played one?


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

The only example I have of a cheap import is my Yamaha AE500 (big box). Built in Indonesia, I bought it from Mothers on a clearance for $299. And you know, other than a couple small things that had to be fixed, it's just fine. Just because it's built offshore doesn't mean it's crap.

But to compare it to a US Gibson or Fender, c'mon. If you're a new player, it's a fine guitar. If you're not, don't try to kid yourself. Spend the money on a pedal or something.

I keep my Yamaha at the community where we play, my other guitar player uses it for a song or two in alternate tunings. I played it once at a practice. Life is too short (at least at my point in time) to play mediocre guitars.


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## Guest (Dec 20, 2008)

Maxer said:


> Just so you know Konasexone, Rondo is an American-owned company but all of their guitars are made in either Korea (the Agile line) or China. No way could their gear be as dirt-cheap as it is if they did it all in North America.


Oh I know, just like the Reverends. Its the Americans themselves who set up this whole concept of jobbing out work to cheaper markets. When it makes them money its the greatest thing since sliced bread, but the minute on of those jobbers decide to get a piece of the action they become "evil". First it was Japan, then Mexico, then China, Korea and next , probably Africa.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

konasexone said:


> If the Chinese want to copy American guitars and can do as good a job then great for them. I'll buy it. Guitars are pieces of wood that make music. Nobody owns a patent on a square, a circle or a triangle and I certainly don't see why they should on any other particular shape or dimension. Guitars are tools just like hammers and saws. Americans need to get used to the idea that they are no longer the top cock on the rock. Rome is burning and the emperor has no clothes. BTW, I'm buying an American made Agile LP copy and I'm going to sleep like a friggin baby once I get it under my bed.


The problem is not where it's made, the body shape, pickup configuration, etc.
It's that it's a counterfeit, not a copy.

If they did the same thing and put their name on it--no problem, my problem is with companies putting somebody else's brand name on it--that's only an intent to mislead, steal & cheat.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

al3d said:


> do you think Gibbies and Fenders are still hand made?..


The first ones were yup. It also took skill to replicate the first ones using pin routers etc. and to make the first ones that aren't so perfect passable to sell. 

I haven't seen much come out of the Asian market that is original. Yamaha make nice guitars yup. Original... nope ... same size shape as D28, D18, etc etc.


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## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

The main thing with cheap imports is that they are disposable. Who's going to pay $300 or more to re-fret a $200 guitar? No-one. The guitar will be thrown out and another $200 guitar purchased. That's a serious waste that is going on in all sectors.

Anyhow, no-one can convince me that those guitars are really that good. They might be good for $200 but the real test is this: 

What would you pay $3000 for, a genuine custom shop Gibson or the Chinese knock off? What would you pay $200 for, a genuine custom shop Gibson or a Chinese knock off? I'll bet I know what the answer is both times.

I think Gibson, Fender and many other companies despite all their faults, which can be debated endlessly, are still producing instruments rather than consumer products. To me a lot of these cheap guitars are just that, consumer products. Something that allows a person to say "Hey, I bought a guitar" and that's it.


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## meloveguitars (Dec 18, 2008)

Greg Ellis said:


> Wow, some of those Xaviere's look amazing!
> 
> Has anyone played one?


I haven't, but I've been really interested in getting one of them for a while, and when I just went to the site I see they have a new ES-335-style guitar coming in January and I actually said "holy xxxx" out loud haha, they make them look SO good in the pictures, I feel like I'll be getting that. I've read good reviews of them on harmonycentral or somewhere I think.

I've also ordered stuff from guitarfetish and they're a good company.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

J S Moore said:


> I think Gibson, Fender and many other companies despite all their faults, which can be debated endlessly, are still producing instruments rather than consumer products. To me a lot of these cheap guitars are just that, consumer products. Something that allows a person to say "Hey, I bought a guitar" and that's it.


I think Gibson, Fender and many other companies despite all their strengths, which can be celebrated endlessly, are still exploiting a marketplace mystique over instruments rather than consumer products. To me a lot of these expensive guitars are just that, expensive consumer products which convey status to some (and nothing to others). Something that allows a person to say "Hey, I own this" and that's it.

This has to be another one of those threads in which we all learn nothing save that we differ in our opinions.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

I've tried some off shore made guitars and while some of them seem pretty good in build and playability I would not buy one on the basis of not feeling good about it from a consumer standpoint . 

I would rather spend the extra and own the real thing . Owning a copy to me feels I've cheated the North-Am market , a worker and our economy . I feel pretty strong about supporting the workers here , not selling out jobs for cheap goods .


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## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

Too late... the manufactures have already done a good job of out sourcing cheap labour. They just keep moving to where ever it is the cheapest... The way the economy is going they may soon be back here...


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

nitehawk55 said:


> I've tried some off shore made guitars and while some of them seem pretty good in build and playability I would not buy one on the basis of not feeling good about it from a consumer standpoint .
> 
> I would rather spend the extra and own the real thing . Owning a copy to me feels I've cheated the North-Am market , a worker and our economy . I feel pretty strong about supporting the workers here , not selling out jobs for cheap goods .


Oh please, spare me...so you ONLY buy North American stuff?...guess you don't own a TV or VCr?...no computers?...


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## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

al3d said:


> Oh please, spare me...so you ONLY buy North American stuff?...guess you don't own a TV or VCr?...no computers?...


Would be kinda hard to to keep a tube amp going these days if it wasn't for off shore products.


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## valriver40 (Oct 22, 2007)

rite on al3d. almost every thing we buy today is made in china. bought a cordless drill today, made in china with a sears sticker. most of all the tools are made in china. bought a fender amp a month ago, made in china. as far as i remember no canadians who built guitars lost their jobs to offshore countries. i am typing on a computer made in china. blame the major companies for moving their operations to offshore locations resulting in lost jobs and at the same time making millons of bucks more for them selves.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

I think some have missed the point that nitehawk55 was making. When there is a choice buy North American. In fact, when there is a choice buy right down your street if the opportunity is there. Remember the family owned/operated grocery stores of long ago? Hardware stores?

Almost completely gone now due to outsourcing for cheap crap. How often have you used a screw driver and have it fail? I have had many tools fail but I recall the old tools made in North America lasting for decades.

I'll pay more for a guitar if it is made in North America. When I buy used I don't discriminate because the impact has already been made but when I buy new I speak with my wallet.

http://www.walletmouth.com/

It's crazy that people won't pay $1500 for a great guitar because they 'can get a great one for $600 made in China'. It is your own choice of course but the impact is like a rock being thrown into a still pond.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

al3d said:


> Oh please, spare me...so you ONLY buy North American stuff?...guess you don't own a TV or VCr?...no computers?...


smorgdonkey pretty much said it for me . 

"IF" I have a choice I will by domestic goods , produce and the like because I would rather support our labour force . We have lost far too many industry jobs , farmers and the like because we did not support them . 
Let's just say I have a conscience and try to do my part in what I feel is right .:smilie_flagge17:


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

I would rather buy things made in North America and do when possible. I dont really care where things are made as long as the quality is good. 

I think that the best guitars are made in North America and Europe. Japanese products are getting really good and there are a couple Australian companies churning out great stuff as well but the rest of the world is playing catch up in the guitar business in my opinion.

I hope a day comes when we can get 400 dollar instruments that are made in China and are as good as a Suhr or an Anderson. I doubt it will happen though.


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

Paul said:


> By that time they'll be making guitars in India...


We can hope!

India has some spectacular craftsmen :smile:


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

China has it's fair share of talented people, they are just rarely called upon because no one wants to pay them when you can get cheaper stuff built for less money.


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## the_fender_guy (Jul 22, 2008)

There are already Indian guitar factories. I had a friend who bought an Indian made Squier Strat back in the mid 90s. We used to laugh because it had a fret buzz that made it sound like a Sitar 
From a political standpoint I don't mind buying products from a country that practices fair trade with Canada and decent human rights.
I do own an Ibanez Artcore which is Chinese made and the quality is fine.
When I started playing the guitar we were having these same arguments re: Japanese made guitars that were knockoffs. I had a Lawsuit Ibanez but much preferred when Ibanez put out a quality instrument of their own design(Artist series from the late 70s early 80s).
I don't see the point of buying a guitar that has been labeled falsely. This is done strictly to deceive and I want no part of that.
The fact that there are counterfeit Tokai Love Rock guitars for sale on Craigslist is an indication that they are willing to make adjustments to find a new group of suckers. Profits are lower but so is the likelihood of getting caught.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Paul said:


> By that time they'll be making guitars in India, and about 50 years after that in Africa. After that we'll be out of poor people to exploit.


The way things are going, after Africa it will be back to the USA.


the_fender_guy said:


> From a political standpoint I don't mind buying products from a country that practices fair trade with Canada and decent human rights.


Are you saying China practices fair trade with Canada and has a decent human rights record? Strange indeed.
[youtube=Option]9-nXT8lSnPQ[/youtube]


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## xbolt (Jan 1, 2008)

When you buy a hot/stolen guitar, you stimulate the demand for theifs to "find" more guitars to sell...

When you buy a guitar no matter where it's made, new, used, copy or not, you stimulate the demand for that country to build & sell more guitars.

These idealogies can be applied to just about any industry...

Since everything is being outsourced, the blue collar workers who use to earn money building the products can't even afford to buy these same products anymore even at the reduced prices of exploited labour costs. Only the small "entitled" minority benefited from outsourcing (read: increased productivity/profits) and they will also continue to exploit the ever shrinking North American market. 
These few are one root cause of the false/failed economy we now see. 

Another is the imbalance in our Import/Export habbits...
We need to stem the selling of unprocessed natural resources to the degree we do. This further exasperates the problem given the massive volumes of NR some countries buy from us as they further benefit from economies of scale. In essence, we're repeatedly shooting ourselves in both feet.

When in doubt, buy local and buy :smilie_flagge17:
Every time you do, someone in your neighbourhood might actually make a buck with which he might buy something you built or worked on...and so on...

Rest assured, the rest of the world won't do it for us...It's a no-brainer.


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## Ophidian (May 22, 2006)

My dad worked in Malaysia and brought me back a fake Rolex I took it to a watch store to replace the battery and he couldn't tell the difference from mine and a real one. I heard in China they make fake Pepsi


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Ophidian said:


> I heard in China they make fake Pepsi


Yeah...it's high in protein.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

FOr those how are preaching "BUY CANADA"..hey, i'm all for that, 100%, problem is Canada does'nt make shit anymore it seems. In Quebec we has this large furniture manufactrer called SHERMAG, it had plants in many cities, that buisness was BOOMING, was a client of mine for many years actually doing their advertising. Their stuff was VERY good. BUT, after a while, their stuff started to have issues, some problem in the finishing, etc etc. 

One morning, i had a meeting in a Plante to meet with the marketing people and when i get there, instead of looking at people MAKING furniture...i was looking at a load boat of people simply assembling furniture. I was then told that the closed that shop and sent it all to be done in China..they send it back like IKEA kit and assembled here and slapped a Canadian product Sticker on it. Wich is actually LEGAL since it's assembled HERE. i was blown away. 

As more time went on, more and more plants were shutting down and sending their production to China, reason?...I was told for say a Kitchen table that sold say 1500$ with 4 chairs, profit would be oh...200$ to 300$ on average, SAME table done in China, profit were almost 1000$. SO, it was mostly GREED, and that company had been getting funding by the Goverment for years for been "canadian". they were closing plants and laying off people by the hundreds, THEN...it got known it was all made in China. People were paying for Shermag products, sometime a lot more $$$ because they were pround, only to find it was actually CHINESE. 

Point is, because it as a Maple leaf sticker on it, does'nt mean dick realy.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Paul said:


> After that we'll be out of poor people to exploit.


No we won't - it'll be our great-grandchildren - exploited by China and the other new, rich nations ............stupid us


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## Benee Wafers (Jul 1, 2006)

I thnk the question is..Can makers produce world class quality guitars, in terms of woods, electronics, hardware, fit and finish at substantially lower prices than the real deal Gibsons, Fenders etc., etc., AND is the quality of those iconic standard bearers products now so degraded and their prices so inflated as to be not competitive with their imitators.

Personally if you asked me if I would rather own and play a real Gibson ES335 or a real Fender Strat or a Chinese imitation my answer is the real ones.

Benee Wafers


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## xbolt (Jan 1, 2008)

al3d said:


> Point is, because it as a Maple leaf sticker on it, does'nt mean dick realy.


Just stay out of the Walmarts of the world and things might change...greed goes both ways...

If we could reverse the trend of wanting the absolute cheapest prices all the time, at any cost (cheap is not cheap...), 
then maybe just maybe one of our future generations will benefit from a self sustaining Canadian economy.
Like that would be so f'n difficult in a country like ours..?*%^&$. 

So I'll qualify my comment...Buy local first...then in a pinch see if the have one with a Leafs sticker on it. If not just walk away slowly, go home and build your own...


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

Paul said:


> The battery is the first clue. Rolex is famous for thier mechanical watches. I assume you took the watch to Radio Shack, and not a fine jeweler for the battery.


I've read (never looked at a real Rolex to confirm) an easy way to tell is that the movement in a real Rolex doesn't 'tick', it is a smooth movement.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

xbolt said:


> Just stay out of the Walmarts of the world and things might change...greed goes both ways...
> 
> If we could reverse the trend of wanting the absolute cheapest prices all the time, at any cost (cheap is not cheap...),
> then maybe just maybe one of our future generations will benefit from a self sustaining Canadian economy.
> ...


I totaly agree. I always try to find a Canadian made product first. When i was looking for a reverb effect, i found Dr Scientist..but they trough me off only wanting US prices, to me, that totaly sucks. I don't care if their market is US base. they are canadian and should be able to offer a FIX canadian price to Canadian Customer.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

Part of the problem, I think, is we've become a disposable society. We expect goods to be reasonably cheap, last for awhile, then get rid of them.

A friend and I were discussing this the other day. He mentioned, and I remember too, people used to sit at the kitchen table and repair the family toaster. You'd take your TV into the repair shop. You'd take the tubes out of your radio in to the drug store (that's where the tube tester was) and buy new tubes to keep it working. 
There weren't Bic lighters, you refilled your lighter, and put in a flint (think Zippo). Most people didn't use ball point pens, you had a bottle of ink to refill your fountain pen.
He remembers when his Dad bought their first console TV. It was about $700. In the late 50s early 60s. I don't know what that is in relative $ today, maybe $10,000.

We are all part of the problem. We want the cheap stuff from China, cause we gotta have more stuff. And then we're filling the landfills with it.

==
With guitars, counterfeiting is just wrong. The only reasons, as I said above, are to try to kid yourself and your friends you have the real thing, or to try to rip someone off by reselling it as the real thing.

IMO the expensive, real deal guitars are worth it. If they aren't to you, there are lots of good inexpensive guitars on the market. Gibson makes a Chinese guitar, it's called Epiphone. Fender makes guitars all over the place to meet different price points, they all have Fender on the headstock.

If people quit supporting the counterfeiters, they will quickly be out of business.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

dwagar said:


> I've read (never looked at a real Rolex to confirm) an easy way to tell is that the movement in a real Rolex doesn't 'tick', it is a smooth movement.


Actually Rolex did or still does make some watches with quartz movememnts but they do not look like the mechanical models such as the datejust or submariners . There are some very good Rolex knock offs with mechanical movememnts available too that I have been told can fool jewellers. 

It's getting so you have to be very careful purchasing certain consumer goods and it's a shame there are not more controls in place to prevent these items from even getting past our border into the country .


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Dwagar, I agree with the gist of your statement that "if people quit supporting counterfeiters they will quickly be out of business." But there will always be counterfeiters who will find naive, too-eager types to fish in. And at least some of _those people,_ pissed that they were hoodwinked and desperate to recoup their own money, will in turn try to pass if off as the real thing to the next victim.

Rolex, Gibson, Givenchy... all brand names, all ruthlessly copied in back room sweatshops and in turn sold into the global market as authentic goods. There's an awful lot of money in such enterprise and not every businessman is immune to the dangled temptations - just as there are scores of end buyers desperate to convince themselves that they had simply stumbled onto an irresistible deal. How many of us wear clothing or drive cars that sport prominent company logos? I mean, who doesn't?

But yeah, I agree with your vision - we're living in a material world and much of what drives us are deep-seated impulses to signal to others that we are what we consume. Not that the only reason we buy a specific product is to signal our status, of course - it's more complicated than that. And yes, generally speaking - if something gets too old or develops defects, we tend get rid of it, period. Electronics, computers and PDAs, appliances, cars, clothing... we have conditioned ourselves into this cycle. Buying into that disposability scheme generates a pretty robust economy, too... it's a complex system of fiscal interdependencies.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

People are predisposed to being greedy, cheap, selfish and stupid. Keeping a lid on them is hard enough without all the opportunities that are out there that encourage people to act greedy, cheap, selfish and stupid.


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## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

dwagar said:


> Part of the problem, I think, is we've become a disposable society. We expect goods to be reasonably cheap, last for awhile, then get rid of them.
> 
> A friend and I were discussing this the other day. He mentioned, and I remember too, people used to sit at the kitchen table and repair the family toaster. You'd take your TV into the repair shop. You'd take the tubes out of your radio in to the drug store (that's where the tube tester was) and buy new tubes to keep it working.
> There weren't Bic lighters, you refilled your lighter, and put in a flint (think Zippo). Most people didn't use ball point pens, you had a bottle of ink to refill your fountain pen.
> ...


Bingo. I said before no-one will repair a $20 toaster or a $200 guitar. When I purchase something I look for things that will last. Those products are the least expensive in the long run.


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

al3d said:


> FOr those how are preaching "BUY CANADA"..hey, i'm all for that, 100%, problem is Canada does'nt make shit anymore it seems.


True!

I have an older computer desk I made from a Sauder kit. It was advertized as MADE IN CANADA and it was - Robertson screws used throughout.

Looked at the same model of desk in Can Tire the other day and it was suspiciously missing the MiC label. Sure enough, philips screws and made of some crap pot metal I could practically bend with my fingers! 

Cheers!


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Hang on a second guys...

*The reason that Canada doesn't make anything anymore*


is because everyone bought the cheap stuff instead. The WalMart effect in full force. Some will roll their eyes and say "not the WalMart thing again" but WalMart's business practices have always been to sell for less than anyone else...therefor they want to buy for less than everyone else. They continually put pressure on their suppliers to reduce prices so that their in-store prices can be super low. When the Mom and Pop stores fell by the wayside because they could not compete that wasn't good enough for WalMart. They continued to put price pressure on the suppliers until the suppliers got into the position of saying "we can't sell them to you for any less". That is the point when WalMart makes their "if you can't supply us at that price then we will find someone who will" pitch...and they proceed to go to Sri Lanka, Korea, China, etc.

People simply wouldn't pay $6 for a Canadian made T-shirt when they could buy one for $2.99 that was made in China...maybe a little thinner but 'worth' the $3 that "is better in my pocket than in theirs" as I hear people say all of the time. 

Anyway...that's the long and the short of it. The general public buys the crap that's cheap without considering the ripple effect then wonders why 'things have changed'.

I agree with the poster who commented on my practice of 'only buying foreign used'...but the way I look at it is this (and it still isn't 100% justification in my mind either but...): Someone buys a foreign guitar for $750-$800 including tax. They are trying to sell it some time later. I won't pay more than $350-$400 even if it is mint. This way maybe people will consider resale when they purchase something and/or make more careful decisions.

I don't often see North American made guitars going for 1/2 price in very good to mint condition. It happens but not often.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

J S Moore said:


> When I purchase something I look for things that will last. Those products are the least expensive in the long run.


Review your paypal account ... that's how I feel. :smilie_flagge17:
True to form I do try to fix those toasters and Mp3 players.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

smorgdonkey said:


> Hang on a second guys...
> 
> 
> People simply wouldn't pay $6 for a Canadian made T-shirt when they could buy one for $2.99 that was made in China...maybe a little thinner but 'worth' the $3 that "is better in my pocket than in theirs" as I hear people say all of the time.


I get em' for a quarter at the Second hand store :smile:... agree with a lot of the rest of your statement.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

Good points smorgdonkey , it's a shame goods made in North-Am have practically vanished .


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## Gene Machine (Sep 22, 2007)

*yum*



smorgdonkey said:


> Yeah...it's high in protein.


Soilent Green?


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

Speaking of things that last, my JS Moore pickups came with a lifetime warranty!


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## hoser (Feb 2, 2006)

I've never seen a counterfiet Gibson or Fender in my life, but I do think its pretty shady.

I don't care where a guitar is made if it sounds and plays good. My favorite Fenders are 80s MIJ, which were outsourced. You wanna talk about cheap guitars? That one was around 300 bucks new.

Question: is it considered a copy when its made in a factory that produces numerous guitars with different names on the headstocks?

I shop at walmart and make no apologies for it either. Hell, where I live its basically one crappy box store or the other.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

hoser said:


> I shop at walmart and make no apologies for it either. Hell, where I live its basically one crappy box store or the other.


Has it always been that way? If not, you're just in the advanced stages of what smorg is talking about and if I were you I'd be pretty angry at them for doing it.
I'm pretty happy that there's a body of water between me and walmart. I can see the bastard coming and man the battlements. Get the oil nice and hot to repel all boarders.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Nice painting there, devnulljp. Yours?

In a very real way, if you shop regularly at Walmart, you're participating in the evisceration of Canada's own long-term economic prospects. Sure, Wallyworld provides employment to some - pretty much slave wages, with precious little room for advancement - but the premise that empire is built on - that cheap is the ultimate goal - entails constant outsourcing... the bulk of the money sure as h3ll doesn't stay within our own borders. Because of the sheer monstrous popularity of chasing the best deal for consumer goods, eventually that translates to lost jobs here on our own soil.

Anyway, back to guitars. I like Godins. I think Robert Godin is a passionate, dedicated guy and his stable of companies makes a huge range of guitars - all of them at least on North American soil. That ain't too shabby.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Maxer said:


> Nice painting there, devnulljp. Yours?
> 
> In a very real way, if you shop regularly at Walmart, you're participating in the evisceration of Canada's own long-term economic prospects. Sure, Wallyworld provides employment to some - pretty much slave wages, with precious little room for advancement - but the premise that empire is built on - that cheap is the ultimate goal - entails constant outsourcing... the bulk of the money sure as h3ll doesn't stay within our own borders. Because of the sheer monstrous popularity of chasing the best deal for consumer goods, eventually that translates to lost jobs here on our own soil.
> 
> Anyway, back to guitars. I like Godins. I think Robert Godin is a passionate, dedicated guy and his stable of companies makes a huge range of guitars - all of them at least on North American soil. That ain't too shabby.


Not my pic, unfortunately -- you're right I should give a citation. I have nothing really cogent to add; between Paul, you, and smorgdonkey, that sums up my feelings on the matter. The only thing to add is the continuing degradation of standards prompted by the wallification of the world.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Cool citation, thanks. I like the dude's work.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> Hang on a second guys...
> 
> *The reason that Canada doesn't make anything anymore*
> 
> ...


You could extrapolate points in this argument and apply it to the tube market as well...many manufacturers insist on using Chinese tubes for the very reason that smorgdonkey indicated in his post....they are cheap....that does not mean they're necessarily good IMO


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## hoser (Feb 2, 2006)

devnulljp said:


> Has it always been that way? If not, you're just in the advanced stages of what smorg is talking about and if I were you I'd be pretty angry at them for doing it.
> I'm pretty happy that there's a body of water between me and walmart. I can see the bastard coming and man the battlements. Get the oil nice and hot to repel all boarders.


When I was young, it was K Mart and Woolco. The names have changed, but it's still the same old crap for the most part. Even the "Canadian" stores are selling stuff made in Asian countries (i.e. Mark's) at over inflated prices, so what difference does it make. If I have the choice of paying 30 bucks or 60 bucks for the same pair of jeans, I'm going to take the 30, regardless of the store.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

I beg to differ, Hoser. K Mart and Woolco never could operate at the scale of Wallyworld. Even taken together at the height of their powers they had a teensy fraction of the influence Walmart possesses. The appearance and steady rise of the Walmart phenomenon really changed the nature of the game. Sam Wall thought big. Rillllly big. These guys can dish it out to the biggest brands in the world - play by our rules or we won't stock our shelves with your goods. It's a high-stakes game.

As for Mark's Work Wearhouse... I can't say for sure but I imagine they, Target, and just about any other budget and mid-level clothing chain you can think of has been buying primarily Chinese and Indonesian-made goods for years and years by now. It sure didn't happen overnight. After all, their customers wanted good stuff for cheap. Nor, I'll wager, did most of those same customers care to work in a local factory making those very same goods - they figured they deserved higher wages, brighter prospects. That's how it works.


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## kous (Apr 12, 2007)

J S Moore said:


> When I purchase something I look for things that will last. Those products are the least expensive in the long run.


Agreed. This concept applies for almost everything I buy. I think on a balance quality weighs more than cost, especially things like electronics and anything mechanical since I want them to last long. And usually (and unfortunately) I think quality reflects where its made.

But I think guitars are different since its an instrument. Its quality is based on feel and sound and usually not on "breaking down". If I find a good copy, I will buy it. I won't buy fakes though, even if its exactly the same. If its good enough it should sell itself.


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## hoser (Feb 2, 2006)

Maxer said:


> I beg to differ, Hoser. K Mart and Woolco never could operate at the scale of Wallyworld. Even taken together at the height of their powers they had a teensy fraction of the influence Walmart possesses. The appearance and steady rise of the Walmart phenomenon really changed the nature of the game. Sam Wall thought big. Rillllly big. These guys can dish it out to the biggest brands in the world - play by our rules or we won't stock our shelves with your goods. It's a high-stakes game.
> 
> As for Mark's Work Wearhouse... I can't say for sure but I imagine they, Target, and just about any other budget and mid-level clothing chain you can think of has been buying primarily Chinese and Indonesian-made goods for years and years by now. It sure didn't happen overnight. After all, their customers wanted good stuff for cheap. Nor, I'll wager, did most of those same customers care to work in a local factory making those very same goods - they figured they deserved higher wages, brighter prospects. That's how it works.


I'm talking about the quality of the goods. KMart, Woolco, Zeller's, it's all the same to me. The question to me was have the large box stores always been here. The answer is, as long as I can remember.
Mark's is not a budget store, imo. Unless you consider 60-70 dollar jeans budget.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

OK, gotcha, Hoser - and agreed on the general quality of the goods.

Yeah, I'd classify Mark's as a mid-level place... certainly not budget.


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

Paul said:


> There are some FABULOUS guitars coming out of China. The Eastman carved top Jazz guitars cannot be matched at 4 or 5 times the price.


At 4 or 5 times the price? Oh give me a break. Those Eastman may be pretty good for the price, but that's about it. They typically sell for between $2000 and $3000. I can absolutely guarantee you without the shadow of a doubt that if you were to offer $8000 to $15000 to any of about two dozen of the best North American luthiers to build you a carved top jazz guitar, they would make you one that would totally blow away the best Eastman in any way imaginable. Come to the Montreal Guitar Show next summer and try a few guitars and you'll believe me.


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

al3d said:


> do you think Gibbies and Fenders are still hand made?..it's all C&C mate. even the CS stuff starts by been all done on machines.


No it's not. At least not as far as Gibson is concerned. You can visit both Gibson factories in Nashville and Memphis and you will see that use of CNC is actually quite limited. There's also a few videos online that give a good idea of the process. They use CNC for routing and have recently started Pleking the necks of some models. But you'd be surprised at the number of manual steps that remain in the production of even a standard production LP. Lots of sanding, painting and assembly work.


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

dwagar said:


> With guitars, counterfeiting is just wrong. The only reasons, as I said above, are to try to kid yourself and your friends you have the real thing, or to try to rip someone off by reselling it as the real thing.
> 
> IMO the expensive, real deal guitars are worth it. If they aren't to you, there are lots of good inexpensive guitars on the market. Gibson makes a Chinese guitar, it's called Epiphone. Fender makes guitars all over the place to meet different price points, they all have Fender on the headstock.
> 
> If people quit supporting the counterfeiters, they will quickly be out of business.


:food-smiley-004:


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

rhh7 said:


> Speaking of things that last, my JS Moore pickups came with a lifetime warranty!


Ah yes...if I read another thread on the internet about GFS I'm going to throw up.

I'm very happy with my JS Moore...and I am really one picky b#!%*&


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Just a thought,

I think if Gibson and Fender relaxed on the trademarking of headstock shapes, it might cut down on counterfitting as well. I think the trademark of a headstock shape is ridiculous. If people want to buy a cheap guitar that looks *similar* to the real thing but is a different brand, let them. I think it's better than a guitar being available that looks disturbingly *exactly* like the real thing, and steals ALL the trademarks right down to the name. 

The companies being so strict with the copyrights brings about some of these problems I think. I mean, Gibson gives warnings for even a body horn being the same shape as theirs. And Agile's old headstock, which really wasn't even that similar to Gibson's, had to be discontinued because of Gibson. Rondo's other line SX will be changing their headstock as well for the same reasons. Anyone who has seen it knows it's by no means a direct copy of the Fender headstock.

They aren't solving much because the people buying the under $500 guitars aren't likely going to be buying a $3000 Gibson anyway. So what the quality of a Gibson has over a cheap import doesn't really matter. They are opening up markets for these direct copies that people looking for a guitar that 'looks just like a Les Paul" will buy. So just let let companies build guitars in shapes that are 'close' to the real thing.

I dunno, maybe that makes no sense to anyone but me lol.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

hoser said:


> I'm talking about the quality of the goods. KMart, Woolco, Zeller's, it's all the same to me. The question to me was have the large box stores always been here. The answer is, as long as I can remember.
> Mark's is not a budget store, imo. Unless you consider 60-70 dollar jeans budget.


I understand the hostility people have towards Walmart. But on the other side of that, what is someone like me supposed to do? I am 32 years old. Due to health problems I do not have the ability to work the hours I used to. Not many jobs offer insurance now, and my personal Blue Cross plan sucks. I have rent, bills etc. etc. I have to pay $300 a month for migraine meds my insurance won't cover.

The only clothes stores that exist in my town that don't cater to older men and women are Walmart and Winners. And before Walmart and Winners were here, there was only Kmart, which turned to Zellers. And the Zeller's store is absolutely horrible for everything, not just clothes.

So yes, I shop at Walmart and Winners. A lot of posts on this forum make a person like me feel like crap for shopping were they can afford to shop. I can't afford to drive to Newmarket or Brampton just to shop at another store, just because it's not Walmart. If you have the options and the money to support only the stores you want to, that is fantastic for you. But not all of us can do that.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Torn, in your town I can tell you for a fact that there used to be, at one point and for many, many years, plenty of places to get reliable goods... goods made locally and provincially, for that matter. Just like dozens of Ontario towns and cities across the province. _It was the norm._ What happened? The big box phenomenon... the cheap at all costs phenomenon. It took decades to take root and become dominant. It's not your fault that it's the way it is now and I for one would not have you feel sh!tty about shopping where you do.

All of us buy and own stuff that's made elsewhere, for that matter. All of us. It's not a question of who is or isn't guilty - it isn't about assigning blame or guilt. I think it's a useful discussion, that's all - to talk about the consequences of certain economic realities, to discuss their ultimate impacts on everyday people - including the guitar players on this one board.

Peace out, man.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

torndownunit said:


> A lot of posts on this forum make a person like me feel like crap for shopping were they can afford to shop. I can't afford to drive to Newmarket or Brampton just to shop at another store, just because it's not Walmart.


Sorry you feel that way. I don't think it's intentional. I am 51 and I don't think I have bought $200 worth of new stuff since I was 32. Not that I have a lack of clothes. I am heavy into used stuff. _It's cheap and is a form of recycling_. About the only thing that I will buy new are shoes and personals. Wear it once and it's used anyway. I love to go the used stores ( hell they even have chains of them these days) in places like Ottawa. You can major scores. There is plenty being thrown out by our wasteful society.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

ONe thing i find funny..people will buy a Xavier, or an Agile or Rondo guitar, that's supposely fine..but are pissing a chinese Gibsun. That to me is actually worst, WHY! you may ask...seriously, don't you think the guy that guys an Agile is not dreaming of owning a real 3000$ LP?...the guy that buys a 150$ cheap ass Xavier tele!..don't think he would want a real Fender Tele!, comeone guys, step down from your mighter horses a bit. Everything someone buys a copy like that, it's the SAME CRAP as buying a chinese copy. they are ALL asian guitars, and probably made in the same place anyway.

You're supporting Asian product the SAME way, if having a different headstock makes you feel all warm inside and makes you think you're all legit that's fine, but please, don't piss on someone because they would'nt mind getting one of these imports.

THat Whole Wallmart BS makes me laught as well, give it a freaking rest, iT's here to stay even if you cry about it all day, it's called EVOLUTION..you're local store is dead, the local butcher's dead, the small car dealership is dead as well....Do i like it?..HELL NO, we have a new aera DEDICATED ONLY to superstores, it totaly sucks, but in a way, you go there, and you have EVERYTHING..bad!...Good?..it as a walmart, canadien tire, ikea, large furniture store, BIG futureshop, and a few others. So, is that EVIL?...instead of running in your car like crazy for hours going from store to store, you go there, park and that's it.!!!..Personnaly, i don't go, it's across the city and i never realy have to go there, but my wife does, she's there 2 times a week at least. She does a LOT of sewing, her own clothes and such, and EVEN before walmart came, the only decent sewing store was 30km away, so now, she goes to Wallmart wich is 10km a way. We compared prices, and the stuff she buys at Wallmart is about 40% cheaper in price then the old place she use to go.

My wife got laid off because of that ****ing idiot Jean Charest 2 years ago, and now she maybe work...oh between 12 to 15 hrs a week, so every penny saved is a penny earned. If wallmart goes, another one will take it's place basicaly. We had Kmart, Zellers, Woolco, etc etc, all the same freaking thing, Wallmart just did it bigger basicaly.

IN the end it's all economic, North America as become a society or consumer goods. Sriously, do 12 year old kids need Cell phone?, ipods!..computer!...50 diffrent video games!...this is just a start, let's take this discussion in about 15 years, you'll see what it as become. the 40 and up in age are basicaly the last generation of people who are'nt mad with getting everything new on the market. I don't make this up, check with any statistic board. The average Teenager, spends 2 to 4 times much on crap then a 40 year old. 

My nephew works at Futureshop, he's 19, and told me, it's nuts how some kids will spend on games and such. Some will say..YEAH..but we buy gear, well, wasting 6 hrs a day in front of some dumb ass game stealing cars and killing peoples like some mad man IS NOT THE SAME THING..NO one will make me beleive that 6hs of video game as the same value of a kid spending time learnint to play an ACTUAL instrument, not that guitar hero stuff. The average 16 years old today, as a Car, a cellphone, a computer, a large Tv, that was from the latest pre-election survey in Qc. it's even worst in the US. they are raised to BUY BUY BUY...so it ain't gonna stop, so they want it NOW' CHEAP and disposable. YOu wanna fix your own toaster?!, hey, i'm all for it, if it does'nt fall appart when you actually try to open it like mine did this summer. Shit ain't made to be open anymore.

PEACE


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

When I saw the title of this thread, I thought it might be about: _egg or chicken fried rice? _


kqoct


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

There is a difference between purchasing an SX, or an Agile, which are clearly marked "made in China", and purchasing a guitar which is made in China, but labeled "Gibson" & "USA". In my opinion, of course. And we can disagree, and remain friends.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

rhh7 said:


> There is a difference between purchasing an SX, or an Agile, which are clearly marked "made in China", and purchasing a guitar which is made in China, but labeled "Gibson" & "USA". In my opinion, of course. And we can disagree, and remain friends.


I agree completely. Even setting aside the fraud issue, a company like Agile has to build and maintain a reputation in the market. When you buy an Agile you have a certain level of expectation, through ones you've seen, ones your friends may have, what you've heard on forums, etc. 

You don't have that when you buy some guitar some guy made in a garage in China. And the cost is close to the same.

I have nothing against anyone buying an import guitar. In fact, I think it's great that especially the new players can get such a good quality guitar at such a low price. Everybody and their dog wants to play guitar these days. They are lucky they don't have to start on the POS's we had to in the old days.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

dwagar said:


> I agree completely. Even setting aside the fraud issue, a company like Agile has to build and maintain a reputation in the market. When you buy an Agile you have a certain level of expectation, through ones you've seen, ones your friends may have, what you've heard on forums, etc.
> 
> You don't have that when you buy some guitar some guy made in a garage in China. And the cost is close to the same.
> 
> I have nothing against anyone buying an import guitar. In fact, I think it's great that especially the new players can get such a good quality guitar at such a low price. Everybody and their dog wants to play guitar these days. They are lucky they don't have to start on the POS's we had to in the old days.


Not to burst anyone's buble...but Guitar shops in China are oh...10 time bigger then anything you'll find elsewhere. check youtube. i seriously doubt you'll find a chinese doing those clones for 300$ in his garage..LOL


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

al3d said:


> Not to burst anyone's buble...but Guitar shops in China are oh...10 time bigger then anything you'll find elsewhere. check youtube. i seriously doubt you'll find a chinese doing those clones for 300$ in his garage..LOL


http://www.manitoguitars.net/factory-tour.asp


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

I didn't see any at that Manito factory that were counterfeiting logos, did I just miss their counterfeit department?

When it has a fake logo and says Made In USA on it, how do you know what factory it came from? Just a guess? Or trust the word of someone that will steal someone else's logo?

for every big factory in China, there are literally thousands of "dirt floor" factories.

I was at the Automotive Show in Vegas in November, I was talking to a large Chinese manufacturer there, asked him how the recession was hitting China. He said the small factories are closing right now at a rate of about 300 per day (because they've lost so much business from the US). That's how many small 'dirt floor' factories there are over there.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

Here's an even better idea!

1. remove the tuners from your guitar, light sand the face of the headstock
2. get a can of gloss black spray paint from Canadian Tire, spray paint the headstock
3. print out and cut out a Gibson logo, glue it to the headstock.
4. Put your tuners back on

There you go. Now you can stand in front of the mirror and tell you friends you have a Gibson.

Way cheaper.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

torndownunit said:


> I understand the hostility people have towards Walmart. But on the other side of that, what is someone like me supposed to do? I am 32 years old. Due to health problems I do not have the ability to work the hours I used to. Not many jobs offer insurance now, and my personal Blue Cross plan sucks. I have rent, bills etc. etc. I have to pay $300 a month for migraine meds my insurance won't cover.
> 
> The only clothes stores that exist in my town that don't cater to older men and women are Walmart and Winners. And before Walmart and Winners were here, there was only Kmart, which turned to Zellers. And the Zeller's store is absolutely horrible for everything, not just clothes.
> 
> So yes, I shop at Walmart and Winners. A lot of posts on this forum make a person like me feel like crap for shopping were they can afford to shop. I can't afford to drive to Newmarket or Brampton just to shop at another store, just because it's not Walmart. If you have the options and the money to support only the stores you want to, that is fantastic for you. But not all of us can do that.


Unfortunately, it has been the same mindset (the WalMart effect,etc.) that has kept the wages of North Americans' jobs down too...and thus the ability (or choice) for North American companies to provide that insurance. It's all about 'building shareholder value' today. As long as the well off see their pay off then companies will stay that course.

The free market and capitalist system has actually ruined the American Dream and, by association, Canadian society. The economics are completely out of whack. I listened to a radio talk show the other day and a woman was talking about how New Zealand apples were being used in packaged lunches that are packed here in Canada instead of Nova Scotia apples...even thought he prices of the apples were about the same.

WHY the F are apples even being shipped in from New Zealand?

It's all about rich people and trade deals. The government has completely lost touch. The Canadian government just changed to a Chinese supplier for the Armed Forces' knives after using a Nova Scotia company for years. The people who even HAVE the power are shooting everyone in the foot.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> Unfortunately, it has been the same mindset (the WalMart effect,etc.) that has kept the wages of North Americans' jobs down too...and thus the ability (or choice) for North American companies to provide that insurance. It's all about 'building shareholder value' today. As long as the well off see their pay off then companies will stay that course.
> 
> The free market and capitalist system has actually ruined the American Dream and, by association, Canadian society. The economics are completely out of whack. I listened to a radio talk show the other day and a woman was talking about how New Zealand apples were being used in packaged lunches that are packed here in Canada instead of Nova Scotia apples...even thought he prices of the apples were about the same.
> 
> ...


I understand what you are saying, but I disagree with the term 'mindset'. That implies that someone like me is unaware what's going on in the world. That is not the case. I have to live by my means. It's necessity, not a mindset.

And as mentioned in other threads, it's not like Canadian stores are doing anything to offset this. What are my choices with my budget? Zeller's is like a Canadian Walmart...except they carry absolutely horrible stock (even by cheap import standards) and the people who work there have even less knowledge than the people who work at Walmart. As someone mentioned, I just can't afford to go pay twice the amount of money for a pair of jeans at Mark's Work Warehouse just because they are a Canadian store. Walmart fills a massive middle ground. Give me somewhere decent to shop that is Canadian, and I will shop there.

Another big issue I have is it's usually an older generation of people that bring up these arguments. Working today is a lot different than working 15 years ago. I will NEVER in my lifetime have the job benefits or security that my father had. I will never have the choices he had. A lot of older people just seem to assume we are ignorant to what is going on. They don't take into account the fact that we just have to live our lives the best we can.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

torndownunit said:


> I understand what you are saying, but I disagree with the term 'mindset'. That implies that someone like me is unaware what's going on in the world. That is not the case. I have to live by my means. It's necessity, not a mindset.


My apologies...I should have been more clear on that. The 'mindset' was not directed at consumers (such as yourself by your admission) who have no choice. The term was directed at the corporations and such who have chosen to cut back on their employees' benefits and wages to become 'competitive' and make money for their shareholders. The government has not helped in this regard as they should have been thinking about 'protectionism' a long time ago. Seriously...LET CHINA MAKE GOODS FOR THE CHINESE. There are over a billion people there...FFS!! 




torndownunit said:


> And as mentioned in other threads, it's not like Canadian stores are doing anything to offset this. What are my choices with my budget? Zeller's is like a Canadian Walmart...except they carry absolutely horrible stock (even by cheap import standards) and the people who work there have even less knowledge than the people who work at Walmart. As someone mentioned, I just can't afford to go pay twice the amount of money for a pair of jeans at Mark's Work Warehouse just because they are a Canadian store. Walmart fills a massive middle ground. Give me somewhere decent to shop that is Canadian, and I will shop there.
> 
> Another big issue I have is it's usually an older generation of people that bring up these arguments. Working today is a lot different than working 15 years ago. I will NEVER in my lifetime have the job benefits or security that my father had. I will never have the choices he had. A lot of older people just seem to assume we are ignorant to what is going on. They don't take into account the fact that we just have to live our lives the best we can.


It has been the practices mentioned (ie: WalMart effect) that have eroded everything to the point that they are now. Is it too late to reverse/offset? Maybe. One thing that is for sure is that if the Canadian Government said "for an item to be sold in Canada it must be made in Canada" and have that rule apply to 85% of goods then everyone would have good jobs and the business opportunities would be everywhere. Other countries would still need our resources and since we are typically a resource based economy then Canada would do fine.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> It has been the practices mentioned (ie: WalMart effect) that have eroded everything to the point that they are now. Is it too late to reverse/offset? Maybe. One thing that is for sure is that if the Canadian Government said "for an item to be sold in Canada it must be made in Canada" and have that rule apply to 85% of goods then everyone would have good jobs and the business opportunities would be everywhere. Other countries would still need our resources and since we are typically a resource based economy then Canada would do fine.


Would that roll us back to pre- or just post-Industrial Revolution?

I'd best sell my car and buy a horse before they are in short supply.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

nonreverb said:


> You could extrapolate points in this argument and apply it to the tube market as well...many manufacturers insist on using Chinese tubes for the very reason that smorgdonkey indicated in his post....they are cheap....that does not mean they're necessarily good IMO


Cheap Chinese tubes as opposed to what? Cheap russian made tubes? There really aren't many choices... at least until someone opens a tube factory in India, or Africa... manufacturing tubes is a nasty business and most developed countries won't allow such toxic processes.

BTW- some of the Chinese tube offerings are actually pretty good sounding!

gtrguy


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Maxer said:


> Anyway, back to guitars. I like Godins. I think Robert Godin is a passionate, dedicated guy and his stable of companies makes a huge range of guitars - all of them at least on North American soil. That ain't too shabby.


I'm in definite agreement here- Robert is passionate about what he's doing and the products are *very* high quality for a very reasonable price in my opinion. The company has become very successful and it actually the largest manufacturer of guitars in North America. It's funny too that many more expensive brands of guitars have been built or necks/bodies manufactured in those Quebec and New Hampshire factories over the last 30 years- Valley Arts, Steinberger, Kramer, PensaSuhr, etc.

For not much more than you'd pay for a *decent* Asian guitar you can have a product made here in North America.

gtrguy


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

gtrguy said:


> I'm in definite agreement here- Robert is passionate about what he's doing and the products are *very* high quality for a very reasonable price in my opinion. The company has become very successful and it actually the largest manufacturer of guitars in North America. It's funny too that many more expensive brands of guitars have been built or necks/bodies manufactured in those Quebec and New Hampshire factories over the last 30 years- Valley Arts, Steinberger, Kramer, PensaSuhr, etc.
> 
> For not much more than you'd pay for a *decent* Asian guitar you can have a product made here in North America.
> 
> gtrguy


I'm in agreement as well. I really want to visit LaPatrie Quebec. I have this mystical image in my head...not so much about how it looks but the smell and the feel of the place.


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## vds5000 (Apr 14, 2008)

nitehawk55 said:


> Actually Rolex did or still does make some watches with quartz movememnts but they do not look like the mechanical models such as the datejust or submariners . There are some very good Rolex knock offs with mechanical movememnts available too that I have been told can fool jewellers.
> 
> It's getting so you have to be very careful purchasing certain consumer goods and it's a shame there are not more controls in place to prevent these items from even getting past our border into the country .


Actually, since we're talking watches (I'm into watches almost as much as into guitars)... Rolex has 1 model that uses a battery. It really looks nothing like the Datejust line or the sportier (Sub, GMT, Explorer, etc.) line. It's not a big seller, and I've never seen a fake one of this model. I own a GMT, and I've seen a lot of fake GMTs. There are tell-tale signs. A mechanical movement in a watch does not guarantee that it is a Rolex. The first thing to consider is the weight - Rolexes are much heavier than fakes. Then, look at the tiny numbers engraved on the strap (on the inside), where it meets the case of the watch itself. Most of the fakes don't even have these numbers engraved, and the ones that do have the wrong numbers and/or the font size of the engraving is too large. Trust me, Rolex dealers can tell.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

FUnny how a thread like this will push people to become overbering or get into a nazy attitude or i know it all mood.... thanks for the bad Rep guys...Very childish, and prooves my point when i say, it's all an opinion..if you think otherwise, get help..so back at ya..kqoct


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

The Chinese "Gibsons" have arrived in Calgary!

http://calgary.en.craigslist.ca/msg/978806902.html


sorry...never thought about a virus risk!!


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## GUInessTARS (Dec 28, 2007)

To preface this statement I am a union tradesman. I own a Fender strat and a tele. I also own a G&L strat and tele. Recently I bought a Nash strat and a Heritage Les Paul. They are all wood and wire. Some are copies, they all sound and feel different. I am currently looking for an el84 amp and will probably get a Mack, is it a copy of a Vox? My point being, are we upset because its a copy, or where it is made?


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## the_fender_guy (Jul 22, 2008)

GUInessTARS said:


> To preface this statement I am a union tradesman. I own a Fender strat and a tele. I also own a G&L strat and tele. Recently I bought a Nash strat and a Heritage Les Paul. They are all wood and wire. Some are copies, they all sound and feel different. I am currently looking for an el84 amp and will probably get a Mack, is it a copy of a Vox? My point being, are we upset because its a copy, or where it is made?


There are issues of copyright infringement, theft of intellectual property and misrepresentation with some of the copies that come out of China.
Chinese laws are pretty lax with respect to ownership of copyrights and the enforcement of copyrights.
There is no question that throughout history the Chinese have had fine artisans capable of the highest quality of work.
There are some decent legitimate guitars from China. There is some seriously crappy stuff coming out of China as well.
There may be some protectionism coming into the debate as well, which is common during tough economic times.


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## GUInessTARS (Dec 28, 2007)

Leo Fender was ostensibly the producer of my G&L's, he was the originator of the Fender brand. Did he steal his own intellectual property? And when the Heritage guys chose not to move to Nashville but bought the old Gibson machinery to produce the guitars they learned to make, were they guilty of some deceit? In that they did not come up with a new design?


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

rhh7 said:


> The Chinese "Gibsons" have arrived in Calgary!
> 
> http://calgary.en.craigslist.ca/msg/978806902.html
> 
> ...


*stay off that site it kicked off my anti virus *


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## the_fender_guy (Jul 22, 2008)

GUInessTARS said:


> Leo Fender was ostensibly the producer of my G&L's, he was the originator of the Fender brand. Did he steal his own intellectual property?


*At G&L there was further development and innovation.
Leo Fender sold the Fender brand/trademarks and did not label G&L guitars as Fender products.*


GUInessTARS said:


> And when the Heritage guys chose not to move to Nashville but bought the old Gibson machinery to produce the guitars they learned to make, were they guilty of some deceit?


*One of the main issues in the Cease and Desist/Lawsuit guitars was the open book Gibson headstock. Heritage did not use the open book headstock nor did Heritage label their product as a Gibson*


GUInessTARS said:


> In that they did not come up with a new design?


There are limits on the fundamental design of the electric guitar to which one can reasonably claim ownership.
It would be like the descendants of Andrea Amati or Stradivarius suing current manufacturers of violins.
There are brands(Fender, Gibson etc.) and trademarks(Fender headstocks/logos, Gibson headstocks/logos, anything related to Rickenbacker etc.) which are not available, legally, for others to use without permission.
The deception I referred to in my previous post was using the Brand name, logo, trademarked headstock design such as the open book headstock/Gibson logo on the carved top solid body guitar style we commonly see as a Les Paul.
These guitars are marketed as Gibson Les Pauls when they are not.
Change the headstock and name and there is no deception.
Nobody should think they bought a shoddy Gibson(or other) product that was made by someone other than Gibson.
This is not to say that the Chinese are not able to produce a quality instrument bacause IMO they are clearly able to do so.

Should I create a user name like yours(example-GUInessTAR$) and act like a jerk leaving you to take the heat? It's a simplified example but how is somebody held accountable when they are an impostor?

Gibson, Fender, Rolex etc have a right to protect their brand but Chinese laws seem to thwart any legal challenges.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

GUInessTARS said:


> To preface this statement I am a union tradesman. I own a Fender strat and a tele. I also own a G&L strat and tele. Recently I bought a Nash strat and a Heritage Les Paul. They are all wood and wire. Some are copies, they all sound and feel different. I am currently looking for an el84 amp and will probably get a Mack, is it a copy of a Vox? My point being, are we upset because its a copy, or where it is made?


would you be a tad upset if you found out the guitar you bought thinking it was an American Strat, and paid accordingly, was actually a Mexican Strat that someone had changed the logos, serial number, etc on? That's basically what the counterfeiters are doing. Only maybe not as good a quality as a Mexi Strat, because Fender at least stands behind them and has some form of QC.

The other guitar companies are using their own logos. Nothing wrong with that.

And I don't feel there is anything wrong with buying an import guitar that isn't stealing someone else's logo, trying to be something it's not.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

al3d said:


> ONe thing i find funny..people will buy a Xavier, or an Agile or Rondo guitar, that's supposely fine..but are pissing a chinese Gibsun. That to me is actually worst, WHY! you may ask...seriously, don't you think the guy that guys an Agile is not dreaming of owning a real 3000$ LP?...the guy that buys a 150$ cheap ass Xavier tele!..don't think he would want a real Fender Tele!, comeone guys, step down from your mighter horses a bit. Everything someone buys a copy like that, it's the SAME CRAP as buying a chinese copy. they are ALL asian guitars, and probably made in the same place anyway.
> 
> You're supporting Asian product the SAME way, if having a different headstock makes you feel all warm inside and makes you think you're all legit that's fine, but please, don't piss on someone because they would'nt mind getting one of these imports.
> 
> ...


Wow. kksjur srsly.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

al3d said:


> FUnny how a thread like this will push people to become overbering or get into a nazy attitude or i know it all mood.... thanks for the bad Rep guys...Very childish, and prooves my point when i say, it's all an opinion..if you think otherwise, get help..so back at ya..kqoct



See above.

You're the one who called it a dilemma in the title, you don't come off as having much conscience about it.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

keto said:


> See above.
> 
> You're the one who called it a dilemma in the title, you don't come off as having much conscience about it.


Why on earth do you need to take this to a personnal level?...did i hurt your personnal feeling or what?..you are entitle to your opnion as much as i am mine.


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## hoser (Feb 2, 2006)

I own both an Agile and Tokai LP copy. I don't dream of owning a Gibson, since I already own one of those as well. My favorite Fender is the 350 dollar MIJ I bought in 1989, I don't dream of owning a USA made Fender. I have in the past, and didn't like them.

Point is, a lot of people who are buying these copies have been around the block a few times and have no desire to pay inflated prices when they can get the sound they want out of cheaper guitars. They, like me, don't care what's written on the headstock anymore.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Edit edit edit edit


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

rhh7 said:


> The Chinese "Gibsons" have arrived in Calgary!
> 
> http://calgary.en.craigslist.ca/msg/978806902.html
> 
> ...



Vintage Music had a couple of the Chinese Gibson copies.

Terrible instruments......in person you can see that they arent the real thing.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

I've seen a couple of the chinese fakes and even had a chance to examine one. In my opinion, they look pretty good... until you really look close. Then you notice that the materials aren't really the same quality- the inlay material isn't as nice (compare an Epiphone and a Gibson closely- you'll see the difference), the maple 'top' on the one I looked at was a thin veneer (though nicely figured), the pots and wiring were super cheap- really thin, cheesy looking wire (no braided shield, just 'ribbon cable' style wires) and cheapo pots.

Like most things, you get what you pay for- the savings are not just cheap chinese labour. And putting a Gibson logo on it? It's just wrong... make it look like a Les Paul or whatever but as soon as you put Gibson on it, you're trying to rip someone off. You should have seen the look on the guys face when I told him that what he had bought wasn't a Gibson.. the look on his face went from utter shock to disappointment to totally pissed off. How would you feel?

There have been some great guitars out of china in the past few years- they've gotten better and better but none of these rip offs would qualify as great guitars.


gtrguy


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

gtrguy said:


> You should have seen the look on the guys face when I told him that what he had bought wasn't a Gibson.. the look on his face went from utter shock to disappointment to totally pissed off. How would you feel?


I agree completely with most of what you said...although the guy who bought the thing thinking it was a Gibson LP...how much did he pay for it? 

Two things come to mind. 

1. If he got it for £200, then that's just greed and stupidity. Used to see that all the time in Thailand: guy gets offered some diamonds or rubies or jade or something for an absolute steal of a price, say $200; he thinks he can sell it later for $2000; gets all pissed off when he realises he's bought some broken glass for $200. No sympathy, greed and stupidity. Chalk it up to experience, learn something from it and move on.

2. If he bought it for $2000, it is a slightly different story. Slightly more sympathy, but still what is someone doing dropping that kind of money on something if they can't tell the difference between the real thing and a cheap knock off? Especially as in this case it should have been obvious.

I wonder if he liked it before you told him it was a fake?


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

devnulljp said:


> I agree completely with most of what you said...although the guy who bought the thing thinking it was a Gibson LP...how much did he pay for it?
> 
> Two things come to mind.
> 
> ...


He paid $1500 for it from a friend (some friend.. then again, maybe that guy had no idea either)... a good deal for a real LP Standard and I'm not sure how much he liked it before I told him but the reason he brought it in to the store I was working in at the time was to trade it in towards a Gibson hollowbody that he had been eyeing for a bit... guess he couldn't have liked the LP that much. The good side is he bought it from someone he knew and was immediately on his way to see the 'friend' and demand his money back.

As for knowing it was a fake- like I said, unless you looked closely and were *really* familiar with the real thing you probably wouldn't notice like chrome instead of nickel plating. Even if he had opened it up to look at the wiring, would he have known the difference? Maybe... but most players aren't as intimately familiar with every little feature of a LP (or any other guitar) as some of use 'guitar freaks'... some guys are just players and not 'gearpig/techies'... And I use that term in the most positive way as I'm one of them. The headstock looked right, the logo looked right and the body looked right... joe average didn't know the difference.

gtrguy


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

devnulljp said:


> I wonder if he liked it before you told him it was a fake?


That's one thing that I find interesting too. 

Many people if blindfolded would likely choose different guitars if they had to judge by feel and sound instead of what brand was on the headstock...we all have a certain amount of stigma attached to certain brands I suppose.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

gtrguy said:


> He paid $1500 for it from a friend...


Ouch!
With friends like that, who needs haemorrhoids?


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

The Chinese fake Gibsons are going for $450.00.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

rhh7 said:


> The Chinese fake Gibsons are going for $450.00.


Sure, until someone figures they can pawn it off on some unsuspecting sucker as the real thing... then that guy sells it to his buddy knowing no better.. and so on.

gtrguy


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

rhh7 said:


> The Chinese fake Gibsons are going for $450.00.


we see many here for under 300$ lately. we see more and more adds of people who actually had them shipped here from China, and for some reason decide to sell them. for cheap. i've seen some that looked awfull..the fender stuff is ridiculous, but i've seen a few LPs and SGs that were very well crafted and played nicely. Don't know why Gibson models are reproduced so well..and fender models you can spot from a mile away.


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## sysexguy (Mar 5, 2006)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...et-to-open-in-china-pictures-115875-21018152/

Andy


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

sysexguy said:


> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...et-to-open-in-china-pictures-115875-21018152/
> 
> Andy


LOL...Pizza Huh honey?....hwopvhwopv


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

sysexguy said:


> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...et-to-open-in-china-pictures-115875-21018152/
> 
> Andy


You simply _have_ to love the blatant disregard for trademarks. It's almost touching in a mom-and-pop vs. the Man kind of way.


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## the_fender_guy (Jul 22, 2008)

sysexguy said:


> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...et-to-open-in-china-pictures-115875-21018152/
> 
> Andy


Maybe they can open a music store selling fake Gibsons and call it 'Gutter Center'


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

sysexguy said:


> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...et-to-open-in-china-pictures-115875-21018152/
> Andy











That's funny, but there's a Moonpennies coffee shop in Vancouver (or something like that, with an obvious ripoff circle/mermaid logo*). There's even a little coffee stand here on the island called something like that too. There was a chain of coffee shops in Japan called godmountain that were sued by SB because they did the look & feel thing -- same font, same colour scheme, same old overpriced double-shot-cinnamon-mocha-frappa-lattecino -- their selling point was they weren't non-smoking. Starbucks for the nicotine-addicted sarariman.

*EDIT: Found the logo


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## margibby (Jan 3, 2009)

smorgdonkey said:


> Many people if blindfolded would likely choose different guitars if they had to judge by feel and sound instead of what brand was on the headstock...we all have a certain amount of stigma attached to certain brands I suppose.


I often wonder about that to.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

I still wonder why these copies get through customs when entering the country . Is there not any controls in place ?


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## Guest (Jan 12, 2009)

torndownunit said:


> And the Zeller's store is absolutely horrible for everything, not just clothes.


Oh yeah. Since Walmart came to town, my local Zellers looks more like Value Village. You can tell no money is being put into the store any more. Why bother?

Personally, I despise the big box stores. But when a box of drywall plugs is $3 at Home Despot and $7 at Home Hardware, what are you supposed to do? Sure it's important to support small business: I do my very best to do that. But I don't have spare money like that. Like most people, I have to make every dollar count.

Speaking of guitars, Chinese guitars. I was in the local music shoppe mucking around, and picked up an Ibanez Artcore that cost $700. Then, I picked up an ES-175 that cost $3700. I'm sorry, but there was not $3000 worth of difference in the two guitars. 

And you know, last week I went back and the bloody Gibson had been put up to $4200! It's been there for over a year. Perhaps the staff are attached to it? lol


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

chitlinsonrye said:


> Oh yeah. Since Walmart came to town, my local Zellers looks more like Value Village. You can tell no money is being put into the store any more. Why bother?


Pretty much the same in Chilliwack. Although now since the buyout, the Zeller's now has the same "Value Village" look with Sach's 5th Ave. prices! 




> Personally, I despise the big box stores. But when a box of drywall plugs is $3 at Home Despot and $7 at Home Hardware, what are you supposed to do?


And $23 at Rona 

OT, I know....

Cheers!


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## Evilmusician (Apr 13, 2007)

Here's a scam er!
http://halifax.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-musical-instruments-LES-PAUL-CUSTOM-W0QQAdIdZ103922867


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Evilmusician said:


> Here's a scam er!
> http://halifax.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-musical-instruments-LES-PAUL-CUSTOM-W0QQAdIdZ103922867


well..he's telling you it's copy...he's not trying to pass it as a real one...but he's insane if he thinks someone will pay 1000$ for that.,..LOL


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