# Vegetarians?



## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

I decided 2 years ago that being a vegetarian was the way to go for myself personally. I am not the type of person to advocate being a vegetarian if you like eating meat. I just couldn't live with myself anymore killing animals for human consumption. I feel so much better healthwise. My cholesterol levels are where they should be and my doctor is happy with that. I would like to go vegan but I love cheese and yogurt too much. One step at a time! My protein sources are derived from tofu, beans, yogurt and cheese. 

Any other vegetarians here besides me? Why did YOU decide to be a vegetarian?

PS I have a family of men who love their meat. I don't think any less of them for their personal choices.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

More and more people are choosing the cleaner diets. Every kg of beef uses about 2500 gallons of water...the amount of grain and other vegetation that is consumed by the animal could likely feed a village.

I think explaining quantum physics and string theory would be easier than getting a reasonable number of people to see the light when it comes to diet.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

I was and will be again. 

Like you, I liked cheese too much, so I never made it to vegan, though dairy is one of the worst thing for a guy to eat as it is a major contributor to prostate cancer on top of it also being hereditary.

At first, I had no interest in it. My wife wanted to eat more vegetarian meals and I only went along with it as I was working on my health, running daily and training in Martial Arts. I actually liked it, felt better and much less sluggish. 

Combined with gradual change and hearing tidbits of her nutrition studies, I wanted meat less and less. When I did have it, I no longer cared for it. So my reasonings became threefold;

Health; All animal proteins contain casein which with a 10% or higher, stimulates cancer growth, less than 10% stops and actually diminishes it (we all have cancer cells present in our body). My cholesterol level, like yours was phenomenal. 

Humane; I'm one who cares about animals and have heard and seen enough atrocities committed to them. Seeing that footage makes me furious. It is not right what we are doing. If I continue to eat meat, it will be from local, hormone/drug free & ethically operated farms like this; http://rowefarms.ca/our-farming-philosophies.php

Ethical; People are starving on the other side of the world because they cannot afford our grain. It takes something like 7 acres to sustain a meat eater and only .4 acres to sustain the life of a vegetarian. Einstein even spoke about how the world will not be able to survive without going people turning to vegetarianism. As it stands cattle farming has become the largest detriment to the south american rainforests and the largest consumer of fish from the ocean.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

PSS. I have cried the last couple of years when it comes to cooking a turkey at Thanksgiving and Christmas! I am slowly trying to wean my family of eating pork! It's a battle sometimes but I will stand my ground if pushed. Baby steps! My husband has tried to sneak a pork roast in the shopping cart while I was busy poking around the shelves at the grocery store. I will just not allow any pork product or veal product in my house! My family knows not to cross that line! They respect how I feel(most of the time)! My favorite sandwich used to be tomato and bacon with mayo! Not anymore though!

My friends got what they thought was a potbelly pig but apparently they got duped! Esther grew to be a 300 pound plus girl. Esther is a member of their family. She's one smart piggy. Here's a clip about her on the news! 

[video=youtube;m4dxP_l2MnU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4dxP_l2MnU[/video]


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)




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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Tofu?????? Yecchh! 

I love vegetables but also love meat, dairy, salt and freshwater fish and rabbit...................


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

I'll eat whatever anyone wants to prepare for me. If I have to prepare it myself, I'll eat whatever is convenient. If no one will prepare it for me and it's not convenient, I don't eat. For me, except for special occasions, eating is only a necessity, not a pleasure.

I'm so screwed up...


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

bluzfish said:


> I'll eat whatever anyone wants to prepare for me. If I have to prepare it myself, I'll eat whatever is convenient. If no one will prepare it for me and it's not convenient, I don't eat. For me, except for special occasions, eating is only a necessity, not a pleasure.
> 
> I'm so screwed up...


Your not screwed up because you eat to live! I don't eat for pleasure either. I eat for survival. 

I do like what I prepare for myself. I need the calories in my body to survive and function. I don't "live to eat"!

We all have separate meals in my household!

My husband cooks for himself and anyone else who wants to eat his cooking. He's an excellent cook! I cook and make vegetarian dishes. My sons cook for their bodybuilding lifestyles. My kitchen is always busy from morning until night 7 days a week.

It's great cuz I don't have to really cook for anyone but me!

I have on occasion eaten beans out of a can over the kitchen sink though! I think that's what you call "lazy"!


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

I think I'm just lazy too. If I lived with a vegetarian who likes to cook, I would have no problem adopting a vegetarian diet, although dairy products and fish would always be a temptation for me. I've enjoyed eating Oriental vegetarian meals especially.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

bluzfish said:


> I think I'm just lazy too. If I lived with a vegetarian who likes to cook, I would have no problem adopting a vegetarian diet, although dairy products and fish would always be a temptation for me. I've enjoyed eating Oriental vegetarian meals especially.


Vegetarians still eat dairy! it's Vegans who don't eat dairy at all! I might try this!


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Be vegetarian, be vegan or be meatatarian, etc--your choice--I'm not one to force that sort of thing on others--we all have reasons for eating or not eating particular types of food--I know people with allergies & medical conditions that avoid various types of food for those reasons
The only thing I ask is you don't act superior because you eat this or don't eat that--and this thread seems to be people who don't do that--so that's a good thing.
You can tell me why you do or don't eat certain foods, that's fine though.

This topic always reminds me of a song--which I enjoy. I believe it's meant as good natured fun, and it is with that attitude that I post it.
Just for fun...
[video=youtube;KmK0bZl4ILM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmK0bZl4ILM[/video]


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

For me this is a topic that is similar to discussing religion here in North America. People make such a huge deal over such stupid simple things. In every other country in the world outside of North America "vegetarian/Vegan" dishes are quite common, except they not associated with a lifestyle choice for the trivial reasons that people associate with them here. They get made that way because it tastes good and was no doubt invented out of necessity at some point or another. I am not a vegan or a vegetarian, and I don't judge anyone that is. I eat several meals a week that do not contain meat myself, but I will never give up my bbq steaks with a cold one on a sunny day. What I have a problem with are the "I'm better than you" people that tell you that you're a terrible person and go on a big rant about how Pablo's dog is starving because I had a steak for supper. I say get over yourself, I have K9 teeth for a reason and plan on using them. On a side note (Still not judging) scientific research has shown that the reason people are able to have higher levels of thinking and consider things like Pablo's poor puppy is because your ancestors had a diet that included high protein foods like Red meat and fish that allowed for that higher brain function to develop! And that is my thought for the day............

Cheers


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

While I realize that a vegetarian diet is healthier than mine, I don't see it happening for me. I've made improvements but giving up all meat seems unlikely.

I'd starve.

I eat very little red meat, sticking mostly to seafood and chicken.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Our younger son became a "flexitarian", sticking to a vegetarian diet most of the time, and eating fish, chicken or beef when it was served to him as a guest. When he was home from school over the holidays, I whipped up several batches of excellent chicken and vegetable pot stickers, and he devoured them willingly. But if he has to rely on his own, he goes veggie. The end result was that between my diabetic and lactose-intolerant requirements, my wife's insistence on low-sodium, and his tofu and gluten obsession, the fridge got pretty full.

Given that he's away at university, the fridge is not quite as full, but we don't really consume that much meat. I'll buy a couple of pounds of chicken breasts, and that will usually do us for the month. Haven't had a steak in about 8 years. I suppose that is aided and abetted by the fact that we don't own a barbecue and the broiler in our oven has been on the fritz for about 10 years.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

My wife is somewhat of a "Flexitarian" as you call it. Mainly because she doesn't like to cook and raw veggies taste a lot better than a raw hamburger! haha


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

I had some one try to tell me that vegetables have feelings too! This person was a fully functioning human being who was seriously trying to get across their point! 

When we go out to someone's house to eat dinner or whatever I will usually pick all the veggies that I can and make a meal of it. I try to avoid making anyone uncomfortable because of my lifestyle choices!. This is my personal choice and I do not hold it against you if you so desire to eat meat. 

I do not look down my nose upon you if you eat meat! So what! I don't rant and preach!


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I'll admit that the time the wife & I went on a meat-free diet for 2 weeks......by the end of the first week I felt great. I had a lot more energy, felt more comfortable after meals, and just felt "better" in general.
By the end of the second week however, I was really craving meat and even looked longinly at road-kill. 

As a result of our little experiment, we eat a lot less beef than we used to, and more of the white meats & fish. Beef seems to be the one that's hardest to digest (for me anyway)


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Our younger son avoids beef because he ends up being the methane producer instead of the cow.

Many is the time I prepare a vegetarian meal not out of principle, but simply because I really like vegetables and grains. 

I think it helps if one is a relatively adroit cook, with a broader perspective and knowledge of ingredients and possibilities. I've seen some pretty lousy "vegetarians" in my time, whose diet is actually rather limited, and a little too starch-heavy.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

Vegetarian is a native term for lousy hunter.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I'll admit it. I like my meat and I eat it with practically every meal. Can't help it. I like potato chips too................


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

smorgdonkey said:


> More and more people are choosing the cleaner diets. Every kg of beef uses about 2500 gallons of water...the amount of grain and other vegetation that is consumed by the animal could likely feed a village.
> 
> I think explaining quantum physics and string theory would be easier than getting a reasonable number of people to see the light when it comes to diet.


Unlike a lot of animals, cattle thrive on land that is essentially waste and would have no other use, producing protein for human consumption.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

mhammer said:


> Our younger son avoids beef because he ends up being the methane producer instead of the cow.
> 
> Many is the time I prepare a vegetarian meal not out of principle, but simply because I really like vegetables and grains.
> 
> I think it helps if one is a relatively adroit cook, with a broader perspective and knowledge of ingredients and possibilities. I've seen some pretty lousy "vegetarians" in my time, whose diet is actually rather limited, and a little too starch-heavy.


I couldn't agree more, a lot of people are very narrow minded when it comes to having variety and experimenting in the kitchen. I get incredibly tired of eating the same things day in day out when I am at work so when I am home I like to explore new things.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Guitar101 said:


>



^^^
This

Seriously, I'd like to transition too for health reasons, but I don't know if I could. When you invite someone to dinner and they ask you what you're having it is normal to just say the meat, right? Meat is so much a part of my (our) cultural heritage and identity that no matter the social or environmental or health benefits the change is going to be difficult.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Chitmo said:


> I couldn't agree more, a lot of people are very narrow minded when it comes to having variety and experimenting in the kitchen. I get incredibly tired of eating the same things day in day out when I am at work so when I am home I like to explore new things.


Hit an Indian or Middle Eastern buffet of reasonable size, and you'll be pleasantly surprised (or maybe not) by just how exotic and varied a meal one can have with only vegetables and grains. That doesn't make the fleshy part of the meal any _less_ appealing. Rather, one comes away feeling that there doesn't have to be a *big* hunk of meat in the middle of the table, and as the largest segment of one's caloric intake, for it to have been a satisfying and complete meal.

Of course, the caveat is that, unless you adopt the "English strategy" of simply boiling everything until all flavour has been successfully removed, intriguing and satisfying vegetarian dishes _can_ require more prep time and effort.

One recommendation I can make, though: get yourself some of those crispy-fried onions you can find at Bulk Barn, or in the Indian or Middle Eastern section of your preferred grocery chain. I joke that the only thing they _don't_ improve is chocolate pudding, but one day our younger son decided to put even that to the test and said it didn't taste too bad....though he was noncommital on whether it was an _improvement_ or not.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

I can never see myself going vegetarian. I've cooked a few vegetarian meals and they were great but I love meat. The only time I don't get along with vegetarians is when they tell me I should feel bad cooking my steak (or roast, or ribs, or beef stew). That's usually when I ask them why they can't hear their carrots crying. Both meat and plants are alive. Plants just don't smile. Otherwise I have no problem with vegetarians, vegans, ovo-lacto whatevers....

I would like to quote scientific studies but the more I read, research and dissect studies, the more I realize that a lot of scientists are completely incompetent if not outright manipulators or information - Ancel Keys is a case in point: if the research doesn't support your hypothesis then get rid of the contradictory evidence, and voila! 

So I'll leave it at....To each his or her own. It just means more meat for me!


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

My diet now is 90 percent veggetarian with occasional highlights of chicken, turkey, Pacific Salmon, lean pork but rarely beef. For the last 2 years I've been going without gluten due to its' uncomfortable effects on my digestive system.


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## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

I don't get why some vegantarians use the cruelty ticket. I mean, cruelty to mackerel? Cod? Tuna? Before you go _there,_ have another look at what we're capable of doing to fellow man.

Side note: No pulled pork? No bacon? No ribs? ... shoot me.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

WCGill said:


> Unlike a lot of animals, cattle thrive on land that is essentially waste and would have no other use, producing protein for human consumption.


That's a bizarre statement...like the rainforests of South America which they clear for raising beef? Much of the land which cattle thrive on could be used for growing food...in fact, almost all of it. 


Aside from that ...

If the reduction of consumption directly affected the food supply (as in the food that cattle eat would be available for people to eat if the cattle weren't eaten) a reduction of meat consumption of something like 3-5% could feed the world. That's right... eradicate world hunger.

For one pound of meat, cattle are fed 16 pounds of food.


During the war, Denmark was affected by the naval blockade against Germany. The country hired someone to figure out how to sustain the population and the result was : feed the grain to the people, not to the livestock. Mortality rates remained the same in the short term but then dropped as the meat was finished off & stayed low until the blockade was lifted when it gradually elevated to the pre-blockade levels.


Some really interesting information:
http://www.planetaryrenewal.org/ipr/vegetarian.html


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

smorgdonkey said:


> For one pound of meat, cattle are fed 16 pounds of food.


One of the reasons why some folks advocate the cultivation of insects and larvae as a food source. The feed-to-edible-protein ratio is much more favourable.

I wouldn't go to_ quite _those lengths myself, but if it provides palatable healthy food for more people, at low financial and environmental cost, is sustainable, and they don't insist on chowing down in front of me, I'm fine with it.

I guess the question is how long before we see big PETA posters of Jiminy Cricket spouting "Stop cruelty to crickets!"

or alternatively, how long before we see the golden arches serving McGrubworm in parts of Africa and Asia.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)




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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)




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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

mhammer said:


> Hit an Indian or Middle Eastern buffet of reasonable size, and you'll be pleasantly surprised (or maybe not) by just how exotic and varied a meal one can have with only vegetables and grains. That doesn't make the fleshy part of the meal any _less_ appealing. Rather, one comes away feeling that there doesn't have to be a *big* hunk of meat in the middle of the table, and as the largest segment of one's caloric intake, for it to have been a satisfying and complete meal.
> 
> Of course, the caveat is that, unless you adopt the "English strategy" of simply boiling everything until all flavour has been successfully removed, intriguing and satisfying vegetarian dishes _can_ require more prep time and effort.
> 
> One recommendation I can make, though: get yourself some of those crispy-fried onions you can find at Bulk Barn, or in the Indian or Middle Eastern section of your preferred grocery chain. I joke that the only thing they _don't_ improve is chocolate pudding, but one day our younger son decided to put even that to the test and said it didn't taste too bad....though he was noncommital on whether it was an _improvement_ or not.


I'm not of a fan of eating out, there isn't a lot locally that's worth eating. I spent a lot of time overseas on the local offerings don't really stack up, which is why I do a lot of cooking when I am home!


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

I don't think I know Traci Bingham.

The root of the issue is that humans 'farm' meat because they are lazy (not traditional farming/ranching). Humans have taken it to the extreme in that they feel like 12 - 16 oz of meat at every meal is the natural thing to do or simply 'what they want'. It is too much for optimal heath. Meat should be more of a condiment and people's health would infinitely improve if it was 5% of their diets instead of 50%.

Quite honestly though, dairy is worse.

As to the gluten topic: wheat has been mucho change-o'ed over time and can cause issues to many.


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

I'm impressed with the level of knowledge of agriculture and the commodities produced from people who've never been on a farm. Farming marginal land that would be better suited to grazing cattle is much worse for the environment and ecosystem and no, a lot of it should never have been put under a plow, including the Amazon.


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

You guys keep up the herbivore thing, that only means there's more wings for me.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

WCGill said:


> I'm impressed with the level of knowledge of agriculture and the commodities produced from people who've never been on a farm. Farming marginal land that would be better suited to grazing cattle is much worse for the environment and ecosystem and no, a lot of it should never have been put under a plow, including the Amazon.


I don't know who you are talking about as it doesn't seem to apply to anyone...unless I just haven't been privy to your polling info in which you questioned whether or not people have been on farms etc. But that's ok...you may have a crystal ball. 

The Amazon didn't have to be put under plow for any reason. There is and was enough food in the world...they don't need to clear more land anywhere to raise it. Most land that cattle graze on grows grass really well and could grow many other things too...but if we stop feeding the 16 pounds of food to make one pound of meat we won't need to increase the amount of farm property.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

found this, thought it might get a laugh


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

smorgdonkey said:


> I don't think I know Traci Bingham.


I know I don't, but goddamn, would I like to!!!!


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Wow, gone to work for the day! My oh my how this thread has morphed!


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

That Traci Bingham looks pretty tasty to me. A little whipped cream and chocolate and...

Wake up, Eric, for the love of meat, wake up!!!!


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

J-75 said:


> I don't get why some vegantarians use the cruelty ticket. I mean, cruelty to mackerel? Cod? Tuna? Before you go _there,_ have another look at what we're capable of doing to fellow man.
> 
> Side note: No pulled pork? No bacon? No ribs? ... shoot me.


It' isn't a ticket. If most people knew what happened in some slaughterhouses, farms, feedlots and during transfer, they may not eat as much, or any meat or byproducts. How many "downers" get dragged off the truck? Yes, it can be done humanely, but no, it often is not. I regularly see spent turkey hens (laying hens). They are some of the sorriest looking animal's. Imagine being in a crate, shit on for 40 weeks before heading to a crappy frozen turkey pie. How about the "veal huts" on dairy farms and the constantly pregnant cows? Required to keep production up. Profit dictates the hell these animals endure.

This isnt a soapbox and I dont care what anyone else does. I am not better or worse than anyone. I know the hard facts and I know what is right for ME. I would encourage anyone remotely interested, to do some serious fact finding. (About the 3 issues; Health, ethical and environmental) Sometimes we _should _look at the things we don't want to see.

- - - Updated - - -



Lola said:


> Wow, gone to work for the day! My oh my how this thread has morphed!


Look what you have done Lola....stir it up


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Chitmo said:


> For me this is a topic that is similar to discussing religion here in North America. People make such a huge deal over such stupid simple things. In every other country in the world outside of North America "vegetarian/Vegan" dishes are quite common, except they not associated with a lifestyle choice for the trivial reasons that people associate with them here. They get made that way because it tastes good and was no doubt invented out necessity "I'm better than you" people that tell you that you're a terrible person and go on a big rant about how Pablo's dog is starving because I had a steak for supper. I say get over yourself, I have K9 teeth for a reason and plan on using them.


Hippos have canine teeth, yet they are herbivores. Humans have incisors, not truly canine type teeth. And nobody said pablo's dog was starving. Human beings are. There's a difference.
And you are correct, eastern diets are vegetarian based out of economics. They cannot afford it. It _used_ to be that way in north america until the late 1800's. Now it dominates the plate to be 50-75% and not 10% like it should be. Westerners are the most wasteful and resented on the planet and likely with good cause


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

smorgdonkey said:


> The Amazon didn't have to be put under plow for any reason. There is and was enough food in the world...they don't need to clear more land anywhere to raise it. Most land that cattle graze on grows grass really well and could grow many other things too*...but if we stop feeding the 16 pounds of food to make one pound of meat *we won't need to increase the amount of farm property.


You've mentioned this a few times already but I don't think you can call 16 lbs of pasture in summer per lb of meat and 16 lbs of hay in winter per lb of meat . . food. It really is only food for cattle and does not cause the general public to go hungry unless your saying we could grow crops on that farmland. Most pasture land is land which for many different reasons, is not good for growing crops. I myself have 30 acres of hills and valley on my farm that can only be used for pasture. I do however, grow hay on workable acreage but it's needed to get cattle and horses through the winter. As for people starving. If it were not for meat, there would be a lot of people going hungry. Perhaps the emphasis should be put on the ethical treatment of animals.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The spectrum of people includes those who LIKE meat, and eat a lot because they like it and can afford it, as well as people who LIKE vegetables, and eat a lot because they like it and can afford it. 

It also includes people who eat a lot of meat because they don't have too many other choices, as well as people don't eat much or any at all, because they don't have many choices. 

It also includes people who accept the entire responsibility of getting their own meat, as well as folks who reject meat in its entirety because they do not want any of the responsibility hat comes with obtaining it. 

It includes people who just don't feel right if they don't have a lot of meat, and those who don't feel very good if they have too much of it (and too much might be just a little bit).

It includes people who feel there is evolutionary justification for eating meat, and folks who feel there is evolutionary justification for not eating any.

It includes people who put lots of weight on the ethical or other principle-based aspects of meat consumption, and those who place no weight at all and simply make decisions on aesthetic or economic factors.

It includes people for whom there is a connection between meat-production/consumption and pan-national environmental issues, and people who see no connection with any of that (even though they may well have other ethical concerns).

It includes people who place heavy emphasis on the rights or feelings of animals, and people whose decisions have nothing to do with such rights or feelings.

Me, I make my dietary choices based on a mixture of health, cost, religion, concern for animal welfare, the pleasure I get from eating other sorts of things, and a desire to do as little harm as I can when the opportunity presents itself. I would imagine most other folks are a mixture of motives as well, regardless of whether that mixture leads them to quinoa or pulled pork 4 days out of 7.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

Scotty said:


> Hippos have canine teeth, yet they are herbivores. Humans have incisors, not truly canine type teeth. And nobody said pablo's dog was starving. Human beings are. There's a difference.
> And you are correct, eastern diets are vegetarian based out of economics. They cannot afford it. It _used_ to be that way in north america until the late 1800's. Now it dominates the plate to be 50-75% and not 10% like it should be.


Hippos live in a hostile environment, will and have been known to kill to defend their young/territory or just because of PMS...NEW FLASH, HIPPOS ARE KRANKY VIOLENT ANIMALS. Ever seen a cow kill a person? Anyway, in case you missed my point, I was slaggin people that get a preachy about enviro hippy PITA BS and added my own personal subtle smart ass sarcasm to hammer home the sillyness. And yes north Americans are greedy glutinous slobs (no offence, I am included) but that's old news. My point was that opinions are like assholes and people need to STFU sometimes and just let others do their thing. If people spent as much energy being productive as they do critizing others, judging their beliefs, habits, tastes, ect we'd be a lot further ahead in the world. FYI I ate a left over hamburger for breakfast this morning.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

My wife became a vegetarian a few years ago. She was raised in a very "meat and potatoes " 3 square meals kind of farm upbringing.
her decision was baed primarily around animal rights/sympathy. Saw a truck load of cows on the way to slaughter, one looked her in the eye, and made a connection that she couldn't get past.
recently she's loosened up a little, and will occasionally have seafood, and very rarely (once a month at the most), chicken.
i get where she's coming from, but I couldn't do it. Too few protein options that I'd enjoy. And certainly none I enjoy as much as burgers, bacon and chicken.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

Scotty said:


> It' isn't a ticket. If most people knew what happened in some slaughterhouses, farms, feedlots and during transfer, they may not eat as much, or any meat or byproducts. How many "downers" get dragged off the truck? Yes, it can be done humanely, but no, it often is not. I regularly see spent turkey hens (laying hens). They are some of the sorriest looking animal's. Imagine being in a crate, shit on for 40 weeks before heading to a crappy frozen turkey pie. How about the "veal huts" on dairy farms and the constantly pregnant cows? Required to keep production up. Profit dictates the hell these animals endure.
> 
> This isnt a soapbox and I dont care what anyone else does. I am not better or worse than anyone. I know the hard facts and I know what is right for ME. I would encourage anyone remotely interested, to do some serious fact finding. (About the 3 issues; Health, ethical and environmental) Sometimes we _should _look at the things we don't want to see.
> 
> ...


I don't judge either way, but I do like my meat so I spend a little extra to buy local. And to add to what you are saying, the way chickens are treated/raised is just plain gross. We eat veggie meals %60-70 of the the time, I just can't stand people getting all effin psycho-hippie over it. Everyone is entitled to have an opinion, but don't try and sell me your beliefs because I already have my own.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Lincoln said:


> I'll admit that the time the wife & I went on a meat-free diet for 2 weeks......by the end of the first week I felt great. I had a lot more energy, felt more comfortable after meals, and just felt "better" in general.
> By the end of the second week however, I was really craving meat and even looked longinly at road-kill.
> 
> As a result of our little experiment, we eat a lot less beef than we used to, and more of the white meats & fish. Beef seems to be the one that's hardest to digest (for me anyway)


i honestly felt the same way when I went on a low carb diet, that involved eating copious amounts of protein and meat.
For me, sugar and carbs, breads etc are a problem.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Diablo said:


> i honestly felt the same way when I went on a low carb diet, that involved eating copious amounts of protein and meat.
> For me, sugar and carbs, breads etc are a problem.


100%. It's crazy what carbs do to you. I'm currently on a low carb diet.

About vegetarianism (from the animal cruelty perspective). The only issue I have with it is hypocrisy. The ethics involved are not limited to simply food, so unless you're approaching it holistically, you'd better not talk about it to me. 

Most of my meat supports farmers; my eggs are local free run; etc. My only vice is that I get free steak, chicken, and salmon from The Keg. I can't say no to a freezer full of that stuff. and free? sheeeiiit...frees up gear monies, yo.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I suspect the number of people who can eat whatever they want or catches their eye, in any quantity they want, or combined with whatever else they want, can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

EVERYBODY has stuff they can't eat, or simply can't stand to eat. The driving home show on CBC this afternoon had a lengthy discussion about cilantro, and the utter disgust and repulsion some have toward it (there is an identifiable genetic basis for cilantro tasting soapy and repellant to some people). The soft drink industry recognizes that many artificial sweeteners taste disgustingly sweet to one segment of the population, but leave an unpleasant "metallic" taste to an entirely different segment of the population, with the holy grail of sweeteners being something that keeps those two groups of potential customers to a blessed minimum. Asian people lose their tolerance for lactose at a very early age, which is why you won't find anything dairy at a Chinese restaurant, or many other restaurants from the Pacific rim.

We know that the "hedonic" qualities of food (how good or bad they taste) change with metabolic and nutritional state. I'm confident that most people here have had an episode where they can't believe just HOW good an orange smells or tastes to them at this moment...especially the one that person right next to you is eating. Pregnant women who hardly ever drink milk will describe, in amazement, that milk started tasting remarkably good to them these last few months, and the cup of coffee they used to love tastes wretched.

We also know that there are cultural boundaries on what is considered as food/edible. As many weird and slimy things as form the French gastronomy, I have little doubt that many who grew up in it would frown at seal blubber, just as many westerners are disgusted by the idea of eating insects, and mammals considered "pets" in one culture are considered as meat in another.

All of that said, insomuch as eating is something we strive to do every day, it offers a regular opportunity to express one's values, that shouldn't be squandered. We don't always get a chance to stand up for what we believe, so if you can express what matters to you, every time you eat, that's nourishment for your soul.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

I eat food, I have to, the alternative is not pleasant. Almost all kinds of food.....I can't eat raw tomatoes and I don't eat avocadoes. I enjoy eating. I'm not worried about 'nourishment for my soul'...there have been times when there has been no food on the table, I just like plain nourishment. I grew up on a ranch so I'm not too worried about how the food 'feels'.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

WCGill said:


> Unlike a lot of animals, cattle thrive on land that is essentially waste and would have no other use, producing protein for human consumption.


Don't know about Alberta WC but there's a lot of cattle grown in B.C. that graze open range....about the only other things that grow there are grass and trees, deer, grouse and what eats the deer and grouse and the occasional cow or calf. Not good for farming at all. A friend of mine raises cattle that way in the Chilcoltan....his lease is about 1500 acres for about 200 cow/calf units. Growing up on the ranch it took more to raise a horse to 2 years old than it did to raise a calf....the end result was the calf went into the deep freeze. Chickens and pigs can grow anywhere a cow can.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Scotty said:


> I know I don't, but goddamn, would I like to!!!!


Her and Pam Anderson.....seems like the dr. earned his money.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Traci Bingham was one of the less memorable Baywatch gals.
not that she isn't attractive, but the show had run its course.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

adcandour said:


> 100%. It's crazy what carbs do to you. I'm currently on a low carb diet.
> 
> About vegetarianism (from the animal cruelty perspective). The only issue I have with it is hypocrisy. The ethics involved are not limited to simply food, so unless you're approaching it holistically, you'd better not talk about it to me.
> 
> .


If you don't burn off carbs for energy as in caloric consumption they simply get turned into body fat! 

I do not wear animal products, use animal products or eat animal products with the exception of yogurt and cheese! My shampoo, conditioner, make up, laundry detergent, dish soap etc. is 100% Vegan. Nothing I use is tested on animals. My products all contain the little hopping bunny which means cruelty free products!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

When it comes to people becoming vegetarians because of animal treatment, I understand their concern. I wonder how many have stopped eating corn and other vegetables because of the pesticides used to grow them in the most productive way, even though there is lots of proof that these pesticides are harming other life, like bees, bats and butterflies; all pollinators for the good of all on the planet?

The facts are that we as individuals cannot right the ship of the disasters being caused in our world. Greed (and power) is the ultimate cause of these problems and until those attitudes are changed/eliminated the problems will only get worse in spite of what we individually do.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Steadfastly said:


> The facts are that we as individuals cannot right the ship of the disasters being caused in our world. Greed (and power) is the ultimate cause of these problems and until those attitudes are changed/eliminated the problems will only get worse in spite of what we individually do.


I know that my efforts are only a miniscule drop in the bucket but ethically speaking I have to do what I think is right for me! I grow my own vegetables all summer long and blanche them in boiling water and then freeze them. I usually have enough for the winter months and if not I try to buy organically grown.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Yup,choose your battles and do what you can.
I eat meat with no apologies,if someone chooses not to ,that's fine too.
I eat totally vegetarian meals and enjoy them as well.
We favour local meats and produce for the most part.
Probably 80% (or more)of our meat/eggs/fish are local free range products.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)




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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Lola said:


> If you don't burn off carbs for energy as in caloric consumption they simply get turned into body fat!


Here's the thing-all unused calories get stored as fat. There happens to be less calories per gram of carb than of fat or protein though. Not only that but the human brain runs on glucose. All of our muscles run on sugar too. Fats interfere with the way insulin works so that is why people who go low fat often can wean off of diabetes medication.

As for the ongoing debate of what humans are supposed to eat:
- humans require fiber and enzymes for digestion. Animal products contain none of those. That is a major hint or clue to anyone with even average intelligence.
- what can a human catch? Before we came up with tools and great ideas we couldn't catch anything. We foraged. Foraging is long, hard work...that's why we respond well to physical activity and not well to sedentary lifestyles.
- humans have long convoluted digestive tracts more closely resembling other vegetarian creatures than carnivores or omnivores.


Anyway, many diets can be mismanaged, and that's why you see vegetarian 350 pounders...because 3 boxes of crackers and a jar of peanut butter isn't a good meal even if there aren't any animal products in it.

Finish on a high note:

Q: How many vegans does it take to change a light bulb?
A: I'm better than you!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Lola said:


> I know that my efforts are only a miniscule drop in the bucket but ethically speaking I have to do what I think is right for me! I grow my own vegetables all summer long and blanche them in boiling water and then freeze them. I usually have enough for the winter months and if not I try to buy organically grown.


Lola: Please don't take my post as an attack on you or your feelings on this issue. I was merely pointing out that the issue is more widespread than just animals versus vegetation. The whole system of food production is fraught with problems stemming mostly from greed and no matter what you or I do is not going to change the system. Personally, I am glad to see you and others like you who have a good conscience and would like to see the system change.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> no matter what you or I do is not going to change the system.


If everyone refused to buy factory farmed animal products, it would change.

Perhaps boner didn't mean to say that 'no matter what anyone does, it can't be changed' but that's how it reads.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

smorgdonkey said:


> If everyone refused to buy factory farmed animal products, it would change.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

I have a nephew who resembles this remark. He hasn't eaten meat since he was very young and has always battled with his weight.




smorgdonkey said:


> Anyway, many diets can be mismanaged, and that's why you see vegetarian 350 pounders...because 3 boxes of crackers and a jar of peanut butter isn't a good meal even if there aren't any animal products in it.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Scottone said:


> I have a nephew who resembles this remark. He hasn't eaten meat since he was very young and has always battled with his weight.


When my aforementioned wife went vegetarian, she didn't lose weight, actually gained some.
shouldnt be a surprise. Chocolate bars, French fries, chips etc are generally meatless 

i think the best candidates for vegetarianism are ppl that were never food lovers to begin with.
others like myself may find themselves constantly unsatisfied and always snacking.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Diablo said:


> When my aforementioned wife went vegetarian, she didn't lose weight, actually gained some.
> shouldnt be a surprise. Chocolate bars, French fries, chips etc are generally meatless
> 
> i think the best candidates for vegetarianism are ppl that were never food lovers to begin with.
> others like myself may find themselves constantly unsatisfied and always snacking.



I do snack on crap just like everyone else! I eat chips, chocolate and cheesecake but I don't do it very often. The last time I had a piece of cheesecake was 3 months ago. When I eat this crap I go on a bender. Last night I ate 1/2 an apple pie at 3 in the am. 

I eat when I am hungry and not three squares a day. I have always been like that though! I think though, the key is that I am always on the move. 

You know what excites me food wise? 3 bean salad from Costco!


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Diablo said:


> When my aforementioned wife went vegetarian, she didn't lose weight, actually gained some.
> 
> i think the best candidates for vegetarianism are ppl that were never food lovers to begin with.



On the contrary. It takes a lot of work and dedication to be a vegetarian, but the food can be amazing if you are adventurous. If you are a hamburg & chili-dogs and only type that thinks coffee truck food tastes like food, well yeah...you have no hope in hell in going V. It takes a lot of creativity to be a vegetarian and even more to be a vegan. If you like Thai, West Indian and misc Asian foods and spices...you are in luck. It take's spices and various condiments to make up for the lack of meat. 
Your palette does change with time however. It takes roughly 6 weeks I found that the subtle tastes that emerged were like a lost friend coming back. An all new enjoyment that was unexpected.

Oh, and that happens to a lot of vegetarians who go carb heavy. Been there too


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

An in-law of ours went vegetarian to lose weight. She would bring vegetarian hamburgers when she would come for a visit. We barbecue quite a bit in the summer, steaks, hamburgers, ribs and barbecued chicken. As the months went by, I noticed her sneaking a small piece of rib or chicken wing until she eventually came back to the Dark Side (meat eater). When we went to her place for a visit, I noticed an old package of vegetarian hamburgers in the freezer. She must be saving them in case she makes another attempt. I'm guessing their 3 years old. Not everyone can live that lifestyle and I myself know a few closet carnivore's.

Anyone have any opinions about the nut jobs that feed their pets a vegetarian diet? Their out there.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

I am just a plain Jane! Happy with the same steamed veggies and 0% fat free plain Greek Yogurt everyday. Sometimes for a change of pace I will put Montreal spice and garlic in my veggies and add some fresh fruit to my plain yogurt. Pretty much eat the same thing for the last 5 years! Excitement is a dish of 3 bean salad or maybe some pasta with a home made pasta sauce or an Alfredo sauce. I have always had an affinity for vegetables, even all the yucky ones kids are supposed to hate when growing up, like, brussel sprouts and turnip. 

Like I said before, I eat to live!


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Guitar101 said:


> Anyone have any opinions about the nut jobs that feed their pets a vegetarian diet? Their out there.


Absolutely not a good diet for you carnivore companions to be on! A vegetarian diet for a dog for example lacks the nutrients they need and can lead to long term health issues!


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

I eat meat and plenty of it according to some of the posts I've read here. Maybe it's just that I'm cold but even after working on a farm I still don't feel any remorse, nor do I get why anyone would... when I look down at the steak or pork chop sitting on my plate. I love to hunt and fish, and better yet eat it once I bring it home. Call me crazy but I don't need to look at my teeth to figure out I need more than a garden salad to get me through the day, I tried it and crashed worse than an extreme diabetic. Nor do I feel the need to base my diet on what some prehistoric sub species ate because they weren't evolved enough to figure out how to catch the good stuff... that's just silly.

Anyway... This is definitely not an everyday thing and maybe not for the squeamish, here's one I enjoyed a few years back. 
-beef sausage stuffed with cheddar
-wrapped in loose moose burger meat
-then wrapped in bacon to hold it all together
-topped off with cheese


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Like I said before, each to their own!! I am smart enough to know what my body needs or doesn't! The health benefits of a vegetarian lifestyle are proof in itself!

I too need more than just a salad to get me through the day too!

There is so much more to a vegetarian lifestyle than just vegetables!:sSig_DOH:


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Morkolo said:


> I eat meat and plenty of it according to some of the posts I've read here. Maybe it's just that I'm cold but even after working on a farm I still don't feel any remorse, nor do I get why anyone would... when I look down at the steak or pork chop sitting on my plate. I love to hunt and fish, and better yet eat it once I bring it home. Call me crazy but I don't need to look at my teeth to figure out I need more than a garden salad to get me through the day, I tried it and crashed worse than an extreme diabetic. Nor do I feel the need to base my diet on what some prehistoric sub species ate because they weren't evolved enough to figure out how to catch the good stuff... that's just silly.
> 
> Anyway... This is definitely not an everyday thing and maybe not for the squeamish, here's one I enjoyed a few years back.
> -beef sausage stuffed with cheddar
> ...


Hey, Morkolo, send me some of that! Moose are a little rare around where I live.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Morkolo said:


> , I tried it and crashed worse than an extreme diabetic.


I Have never heard of a vegetarian crashing. Exactly what was your vegetarian lifestyle choice composed of? There has to be a balance of Protein, carbs and fats. If done incorrectly I could see why you might crash! Carb overloading may be the culprit!!


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Guitar101 said:


> Anyone have any opinions about the nut jobs that feed their pets a vegetarian diet?


Well, they are nut jobs!


...and good humour in Morkolo's post. At least I hope it was humour!


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

smorgdonkey said:


> Well, they are nut jobs!


i think it would surprise many dog owners how little meat theyre feeding Fido already.
Mainstream box store foods are packed full of corn gluten, rice, soybean meal etc and what little "meat" products are in there often consists of ground up bones, hooves etc.
a well planned vegetarian diet for a dog may be no worse, and possibly better than a bag of Kibble from Wal Mart.
Not that id ever do it, our dogs get what we believe is a good dog food, from brands like Orijen, Wellness.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Diablo said:


> i think it would surprise many dog owners how little meat theyre feeding Fido already.
> Mainstream box store foods are packed full of corn gluten, rice, soybean meal etc and what little "meat" products are in there often consists of ground up bones, hooves etc.
> a well planned vegetarian diet for a dog may be no worse, and possibly better than a bag of Kibble from Wal Mart.
> Not that id ever do it, our dogs get what we believe is a good dog food, from brands like Orijen, Wellness.


You're probably right, I use this website to determine good quality food for our pets. Dogfoodanalysis.com
You would be surprised what your dog eats. With some companies it's called the three D's Which refers to the livestock's condition Of dead, diseased, dying. All the drugs that a disease or dying animal was given is consumed by your dog


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## GuitarT (Nov 23, 2010)

Morkolo said:


> I eat meat and plenty of it according to some of the posts I've read here. Maybe it's just that I'm cold but even after working on a farm I still don't feel any remorse, nor do I get why anyone would... when I look down at the steak or pork chop sitting on my plate. I love to hunt and fish, and better yet eat it once I bring it home. Call me crazy but I don't need to look at my teeth to figure out I need more than a garden salad to get me through the day, I tried it and crashed worse than an extreme diabetic. Nor do I feel the need to base my diet on what some prehistoric sub species ate because they weren't evolved enough to figure out how to catch the good stuff... that's just silly.
> 
> Anyway... This is definitely not an everyday thing and maybe not for the squeamish, here's one I enjoyed a few years back.
> -beef sausage stuffed with cheddar
> ...


I'm with you. I'm a die hard meatetarian. I like to hunt for my own meat, all natural, hormone free and I know how it's been handled form hoof to plate. To each his own and I don't think any less of anyone for being a vegetarian. Everyone has their own reasons for eating how they do and I don't considor any one more enlightened than another.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Morkolo said:


> I eat meat and plenty of it according to some of the posts I've read here. Maybe it's just that I'm cold but even after working on a farm I still don't feel any remorse, nor do I get why anyone would... when I look down at the steak or pork chop sitting on my plate. I love to hunt and fish, and better yet eat it once I bring it home. Call me crazy but I don't need to look at my teeth to figure out I need more than a garden salad to get me through the day, I tried it and crashed worse than an extreme diabetic. Nor do I feel the need to base my diet on what some prehistoric sub species ate because they weren't evolved enough to figure out how to catch the good stuff... that's just silly.
> 
> Anyway... This is definitely not an everyday thing and maybe not for the squeamish, here's one I enjoyed a few years back.
> -beef sausage stuffed with cheddar
> ...


How has no one liked this? I would kill my favourite dog for just one bite.


edit: oops,I should have scrolled down.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Diablo said:


> i think it would surprise many dog owners how little meat theyre feeding Fido already.
> Mainstream box store foods are packed full of corn gluten, rice, soybean meal etc and what little "meat" products are in there often consists of ground up bones, hooves etc.
> *a well planned vegetarian diet for a dog may be no worse, and possibly better than a bag of Kibble from Wal Mart.*
> Not that id ever do it, our dogs get what we believe is a good dog food, from brands like Orijen, Wellness.


People may be surprised at this but during WWII, the lions at the zoo in London, England were fed a version of veggie burgers since meat was in short supply. What is surprising is that they actually did better with the "veggie" diet than on the meat. But since meat was cheaper later on, that's what they went back to.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Scotty said:


> You're probably right, I use this website to determine good quality food for our pets. Dogfoodanalysis.com
> You would be surprised what your dog eats. With some companies it's called the three D's Which refers to the livestock's condition Of dead, diseased, dying. All the drugs that a disease or dying animal was given is consumed by your dog


*Warning: The following information may upset some people. Don't read if you have a weak stomach:* It used to be that way until Mad Cow disease came on the scene in Alberta. If I had any dead stock, I would call the fur farm and they would pick up the animal. They would sell all the usable parts and that kept the cost of picking it up at the farm down. Animals die for many different reasons just like people do and yes, even old age. After Mad Cow, they couldn't sell the animal and they had to be cremated or buried. The cost of the fur farm to pick them up then rose from $60 to $240 which added to the loss of the deceased animal. I'm not trying to gross anyone out but people should know that diseased carcass's are not used in the making of their dog food. Now, animals that have been given antibiotics is another matter. If an animal can walk onto the kill floor, their OK to use for food. However, government inspectors are on hand to remove the diseased animals they deem unfit for human consumption.

Please delete this post if it is too factual. Some people may be grossed out by it but it is a reality.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

adcandour said:


> How has no one liked this? I would kill my favourite dog for just one bite.
> 
> 
> edit: oops,I should have scrolled down.


im not a vegetarian, but it just looks too heavy for me. Id be lucky to get through one of those. a plate like that would have me praying to be put out of my gastric misery.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Diablo said:


> im not a vegetarian, but it just looks too heavy for me. Id be lucky to get through one of those. a plate like that would have me praying to be put out of my gastric misery.


I could probably do about one - just because of the saltiness. Most of the foods there (moose, cheese, bacon) match my blood type, so I'd likely be fine. And, there's not enough beef to mess me up (beef is not recommended if eating for blood type).


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Everyone should read labels and be concerned with cholesterol, sodium and fats( saturated and trans fats) that are contained in the foods they eat! We all need a certain amount of cholesterol, sodium and fats in our diets but do you know how much is too much? Do you know what your RDA is?


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

adcandour said:


> How has no one liked this? I would kill my favourite dog for just one bite.
> 
> 
> edit: oops,I should have scrolled down.


Dogs can be tasty if cooked right.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Guitar101 said:


> *Warning: The following information may upset some people. Don't read if you have a weak stomach:* It used to be that way until Mad Cow disease came on the scene in Alberta. If I had any dead stock, I would call the fur farm and they would pick up the animal. They would sell all the usable parts and that kept the cost of picking it up at the farm down. Animals die for many different reasons just like people do and yes, even old age. After Mad Cow, they couldn't sell the animal and they had to be cremated or buried. The cost of the fur farm to pick them up then rose from $60 to $240 which added to the loss of the deceased animal. I'm not trying to gross anyone out but people should know that diseased carcass's are not used in the making of their dog food. Now, animals that have been given antibiotics is another matter. If an animal can walk onto the kill floor, their OK to use for food. However, government inspectors are on hand to remove the diseased animals they deem unfit for human consumption.
> 
> Please delete this post if it is too factual. Some people may be grossed out by it but it is a reality.


Friend of mine picks up dead, injured and dieing animals....horses, cows, sheep etc.......and takes them to the rendering plant. This includes road kill. Dead animals are inspected by a vet. The plant makes fertilizer and animal feed. He has some interesting barbeques.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Morkolo said:


> I eat meat and plenty of it according to some of the posts I've read here. Maybe it's just that I'm cold but even after working on a farm I still don't feel any remorse, nor do I get why anyone would... when I look down at the steak or pork chop sitting on my plate. I love to hunt and fish, and better yet eat it once I bring it home. Call me crazy but I don't need to look at my teeth to figure out I need more than a garden salad to get me through the day, I tried it and crashed worse than an extreme diabetic. Nor do I feel the need to base my diet on what some prehistoric sub species ate because they weren't evolved enough to figure out how to catch the good stuff... that's just silly.
> 
> Anyway... This is definitely not an everyday thing and maybe not for the squeamish, here's one I enjoyed a few years back.
> -beef sausage stuffed with cheddar
> ...


Toss some bear in the sausage and an egg or two on top and that's a meal. Now I'm getting hungry. Catch it and eat it before it catches and eats you. Keeps the family feed and safe. and if you think you're cold then I must be frozen.


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