# Art & Lutherie Vs Simon & Patrick Folk cutaway



## DrakeZero

Hello everyone, I've recently joined this forum, and also decided on buying a Canadian acoustic guitar, but I need a little help in buying the right one. I decided I wanted to get a canadian made acoustic after trying out a Simon & Patrick folk guitar at Long and Macquade. 



I was impressed with the satin feel, and the smaller size then the usual dreadnought. I use to own a epiphone DRV-100, but soon traded it in after a while I just didn't like it.

Anyways back to my dilemma, the guitar I tried out was this one: 

Long & McQuade - Simon And Patrick Songsmith Folk Burst With Cutaway And A3T Pickup

Very cutting in the treble sound, and excellent to hold. The vintage sunburst was so so with me as I would have preferred an antique burst instead, but still a solid guitar. I was thinking of trading my egnater rebel 30 amp. Then use the $20 gift card (that comes from buying the guitar) and money from trading in a cab to getting a TRIC case.

However, I swung by another music store that was carrying this Art & Lutherie.
Art & Lutherie Folk Cedar Antique Burst Cutaway

It too played well, but mellower as unlike the Simon & Patrick, which has a spruce top, this one was cedar. And also has a fantastic looking antique burst. Other then the different tops the two are exact in spec and in price (after considering the $20 gift card from L&M) so I am wondering what is the better buy between the two,which one would be good for a blues player that bends and which one is a better resale value?

I've tried a few seagulls, but haven't found one in the same size as these two models, and not a fan of the headstock to be honest. So what do you guys think? I'm going to go back and try the simon & Patrick before I decide which one is the one for me.

Thanks in advance to any advice given.


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## brimc76

Hi DrakeZero. I've owned both Seagulls and Simon and Patricks and found them to be of equal quality. The Art and Lutherie line is a well made line as well but I have never owned one of them. That said, I would buy which ever guitar sounds the best to you as they are going to be roughly the same price. Don't worry about it's resale value right now, I don't think you can go wrong with any of the Godin line.
The cedar top is going to sound more mellow but remember it will also scratch easier as it is a softer wood than the spruce top of the Simon and Patrick model. Also, check out the electronics on both models to see if they have a different sound plugged in. I have a Seagull SWS Folk model and I really like that size. 
Good shopping!

Brian


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## bw66

One thing to consider is that the spruce top should sound better with age, and the cedar top will stay pretty much the same.


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## DrakeZero

Oh wow finally some answers! Sorry was waiting so patiently for someone. I actually came back from the music store with the Art & Lutherie, and really liked the mellow tone, but I should head back to the Simon and Patrick once more and see if I'm sure.

So typically the spruce will sound better over time then the Cedar? As for the electronics it doesn't really matter to me as I don't have a acoustic amp and want to play it by itself. I would like to have gotten one without the electronics, but they don't offer Folk size with cutaways without electronics.

I liked the seagulls too, and the SWS Folk model I did look at, but the cutaway is nice as I like to get to the higher frets. So I can't go wrong with either one? Just don't want to make a mistake like I did with my first acoustic. I rushed in buying it and never enjoyed it.


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## Bevo

I like that Simon and Patrick!

Looking at the guitars its hard to tell but how much smaller are the bodies?
I am probably going to buy m guitar this weekend and like your discriptions of them, very helpfull.


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## naisen

I would go with the spruce top. my brother and i both have 10-yr old LaPatrie guitars, his spruce top Norman sounds better than my Cedar Seagull S6 to me anyway. They are both pretty banged up, my cedar top has lots of dings, but the spruce top has discoloured more. They both play great, you cant really loose with the LaPatrie guitars IMO.


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## DrakeZero

Thanks, glad to help another guitarist. There only a little bit smaller then their dreadnought counterparts, and priced the same, but small enough you can cradle the guitar closer to you, and easy access to the strings. For me I would always get a little annoyed by the size of a dreadnought. It surprises me that most of the other companies don't carry the folk size with a cutaway, but regardless I really want a quality guitar from Canada, and not from Korea or China. I'll be heading back to Long and Macquade to try out the Simon and Patrick. For the moment the Art & Lutherie is ahead in my thought.


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## Stephen W.

The SWS denotes "Solid Woods". The other models will have laminated back and sides. I just went through this with a friend who has been out of the music scene for almost three decades. He couldn't believe the difference in tone the SWS models had over the laminated ones.
Best advice is to play as many brands and models as you can. Even go as far as to ask someone (a friend or the sales person) to play them so you can hear how each sounds from out in front. Pick the one that: 
(a) Feels the best to you because, if it's too hard or uncomfortable you'll not play it as much.
(b) Sounds the best to your ear. Similar reason as above.
(c) Don't get hung up on price. Pay what you have to (with in reason) in order to get the guitar you really want. Remember, the sweet taste of a great "deal" will quickly fade while the bitterness of a poor choice will last forever.


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## DrakeZero

Thanks Stephen for that advice. I have to admit, the only reason I stayed away from seagull was because of the headstock. But there name keeps popping up as great guitar to own over the other two makes. I just wished they had a cutaway verson of the folk size. There was a SWS folk size at the store that houses the Art & Lutherie, but didn't stay on it much as it was de tuned and I had to go. I'll give it a lot of consideration. Thank you.

Oh and almost forgot to thank you as well Naisan. It'll really help me in deciding. I didn't have a chance to play a La Patrie, but if I see one at Long and Macquade I'll give it a try.


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## Steadfastly

You could always get them both.:rockon:


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## naisen

DrakeZero said:


> Oh and almost forgot to thank you as well Naisan. It'll really help me in deciding. I didn't have a chance to play a La Patrie, but if I see one at Long and Macquade I'll give it a try.


i just meant the la patrie factory in general (i believe that is the town name) , HQ of all the different godin brands. good value stuff all around.


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## DrakeZero

Lol, I could I guess. I went to Long and Macquade again to try out the Simon and Patrick and was really getting into it. But then I found out it wasn't tuned properly, and when I tuned it. It didn't sound good anymore lol. Might be because I'm so use to playing one step down.

Anyways, another guitar showed up there that I hadn't seen before. It's a used 2006 Simon & Patrick 50th anniversary Long and Macquade folk guitar. Spruce top with maple flame on the back. It looked very nice, but I think it needs new strings on it. Very bright sounding, but didn't have enough time to get into it. Unlike the other guitar it doesn't have any electronics and retailing for $222. Anyone ever had these before? 

I found out when they were new it retailed for $480 in 2006 and came with a TRIC case. Not sure if the previous owner left the case behind. I might go by tomorrow and give it another round. My sales guy is going to wonder when the hell will I buy lol.


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## Steadfastly

DrakeZero said:


> Lol, I could I guess. I went to Long and Macquade again to try out the Simon and Patrick and was really getting into it. But then I found out it wasn't tuned properly, and when I tuned it. It didn't sound good anymore lol. Might be because I'm so use to playing one step down.
> 
> Anyways, another guitar showed up there that I hadn't seen before. It's a used 2006 Simon & Patrick 50th anniversary Long and Macquade folk guitar. Spruce top with maple flame on the back. It looked very nice, but I think it needs new strings on it. Very bright sounding, but didn't have enough time to get into it. Unlike the other guitar it doesn't have any electronics and retailing for $222. Anyone ever had these before?
> 
> I found out when they were new it retailed for $480 in 2006 and came with a TRIC case. Not sure if the previous owner left the case behind. I might go by tomorrow and give it another round. My sales guy is going to wonder when the hell will I buy lol.


If you're going to buy new and you don't mind buying online, these guys seem to have some decent prices.

Fleet Pro Sound & Lighting


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## smorgdonkey

La Patrie
Seagull
Art & Luthrie
Simon & Patrick
Norman

All made in the same place and you may as well say "all the same brand". There used to be a lot of differences between the names as far as different features but those differences seem to have become less as time has gone on - though still noteable IE Seagull headstock. Cedar does have that mellow tone and some would say 'muddy' but does tend to have a lot of 'boom' or volume for a loud singer. The other thing about cedar is that it tends to get marked up pretty easily too with pick strokes and so on. What ever one that you buy make sure that you pay attention to humidity as solid woods like it fairly stable and drastic changes can have drastic consequences.

Bottom line is that they are all really about the same 'quality' when comparing similar priced guitars so buy the one that you like the sound of the most if it feels good as well. If you have cash, I'll say something that will make your sales guy somewhat unhappy - buy a used one. Often you can get something that retailed for twice the price (or close to it).


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## DrakeZero

Wow thanks for the link to the online store. I don't have problems paying online, but what always held me back was most of the stores were in the US and thus I worried about custom fees so thank you so much for that link FlipFlopFly.

My Luther explained that to me when I told him the last time I had a hollow body/acoustic guitar that I left it on display in my living room. He said I shouldn't do that, and instead keep it in a case that way it won't be as affected by humidity, and recommended I get one of those TRIC cases with any hollow body or acoustic guitar that I buy. I would prefer to buy used, and hence why I wanted to give some consideration to the 50th anniversary Simon & Patrick as it was priced new at $480, but now $222. I imagine the other ones I mentioned would do the same way in terms of pricing. Thanks again, and I'll let you guys know what I did, and provide pictures too


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## colchar

From what I've been told during my search for an acoustic, the S&P and A&L guitars are, for all intents and purposes, the same. The differences are mostly aesthetic (like the white outline around the S&P headstock that isn't there on the A&L). S&P are sold, primarily, through Long & McQuade while the A&L guitars are sold to smaller stores.

I really like the Seagull S6 Slim (slimmer neck than their normal guitars) but am still considering both S&P and A&L models. I'd like to grab an all wood one but think the laminated back and side ones might fit my budget more easily. Then again, the Norman (again, made by Godin like all the others we are discussing) website openly states for some models that they have laminated back and sides while that information isn't provided on the Seagull, S&P, or A&L websites so I am wondering if those actually are laminated? I might email Godin to ask them to clarify this for me - if I do I'll post their response here. I'm also wondering if the laminated back and sides really matter all that much for someone like me who will only ever play at home (sorry if that is a dumb question but I haven't played an acoustic since I was a kid and know virtually nothing about them).

I found the Ibanez AW40 to be very comfortable to play (I don't find many acoustic necks to be comfortable which is probably why I like the Seagull S6 Slim so much) but would, like DrakeZero, far prefer to buy a Canadian guitar than anything made in China.


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## bw66

In my opinion, laminated back and sides are a very safe compromise to make. If you love the guitar, laminated back and sides shouldn't be a dealbreaker.


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## smorgdonkey

bw66 said:


> In my opinion, laminated back and sides are a very safe compromise to make. If you love the guitar, laminated back and sides shouldn't be a dealbreaker.


True. 

Furthermore, I am unaware of any in the Godin family that are all solid woods. I may be wrong on that but laminated back and sides seem to be a staple.


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## bw66

smorgdonkey said:


> True.
> 
> Furthermore, I am unaware of any in the Godin family that are all solid woods. I may be wrong on that but laminated back and sides seem to be a staple.


I know that the S&P Showcase series have solid backs and sides, but they are also their top-of-the-line models within that brand. (i.e. Much more expensive - though still great value.)


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## colchar

I think that anything from the Godin family that has 'SWS' in its name is non-laminated. I still have to get around to emailing them about this. As I said, Norman lists their models as being laminated but none of the others do. Since they are all the same company you'd think they would be consistent and that, if lamination isn't mentioned, then it isn't laminated.


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## brimc76

colchar said:


> I think that anything from the Godin family that has 'SWS' in its name is non-laminated. I still have to get around to emailing them about this. As I said, Norman lists their models as being laminated but none of the others do. Since they are all the same company you'd think they would be consistent and that, if lamination isn't mentioned, then it isn't laminated.


I have a Seagull SWS Maritime Folk HG (High Gloss) and it is a solid wood guitar not a laminate. The top is spruce and the back and sides are solid Mahogany.

Brian


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## DrakeZero

Well waited too long on the Art & Lutherie, I went by the music shop today to pick up a strat from having a setup, and it sold to woman that fell for it. Guess I'll be looking at the other two S&P at Long and Macquade. In other news, I found a job.


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## Crossroads

I have the S&P Cutaway GT Folk.... cedar top ( gloss top) with the 3 piece laminated cherry sides and back. I have had it since April, and have been most pleased. I like the smaller body style, and I really like the feel of the neck, and this guitar is awesome plugged in.


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## DrakeZero

Well my choice took a different path. I went to L&M, and found the used S&P was sold. I played the sunburst S&P, and still liked it, but my mind was still on that art & Lutherie that got away. So I took alot of gear in and bought myself a Gibson ES-339.










Shame I wanted to get a December acoustic, but this 339 is nice. Thanks everyone for your help. I will keep it in mind when I resume my search down the road.


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## charcbait

I sent this to Godin the other day:

_I’m a passionately-Canadian finger-style folk/pop and roots player, totally pleased with my ‘95 Seagull S6 and my Norman 12-string. Now it is time to buy a 6-string accoustic for ma chérie, and it will come from one of the Godin companies—but which one? I can’t find any articles comparing the Seagull, S&P, A&L, and Norman lines with each other. If you know of any online comparison reviews or articles that have that information, please send me links. There must be a significant difference between them or you wouldn’t have structured Godin the way you have. If you have something already prepared that explains the differences in quality and the player type/style that each line appeals to, that would be ideal. There is no dealer nearby to ask.
Thank you for your time, your great guitars, and for being Canadian!_

...and got this reply:

_Most Seagull 6 string models have a 1.8" nut width. All 6 string models from our other lines have a 1.72" nut width. 

All Seagull and Simon&Patrick models have solid tops. Some Norman and Art&Lutherie models have laminated tops. 

Some Seagull and Simon&Patrick and Norman models have solid backs and sides. All Art&Lutherie models have laminated backs and sides. 

Some Norman and Art&Lutherie models are available with colored finishes. Seagull and Simon&Patrick models are only available with natural finishes (a few models have a burst finish). 

Seagull and Art&Lutherie models are available with Quantum electronics. Norman models are available with Fishman electronics. Simon&Patrick models are available with B-Band electronics. _

I was hoping for something like "Norman guitars tend to be our value-priced entry-level products", or "A&L are most popular with demanding roots players"--something that indicated a quality difference between the lines. Maybe you guys are right...perhaps the lines have become blurred through the years.


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## wingsfan

FlipFlopFly said:


> If you're going to buy new and you don't mind buying online, these guys seem to have some decent prices.
> 
> Fleet Pro Sound & Lighting


Checked this site out some great deals but google is now warning the site may be comprimized(sic) use or browse with caution until the admins there get it cleaned up.
so sad...they have some really nice toys there...


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## blam

hey drake, i have the A&L folk cutaway and i love it. it was a pretty recent acquisition as well. has a very mellow tone as you mentioned and plays very nicely. much nicer than most acoustics 2x the price.

i absolutely love teh matte finish on the guitar. i think it suits it well. ( I hate glossy acoustics ) 

i kind of wish i got the dreadnaught however. same price and a bit louder.


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## Steadfastly

charcbait said:


> I sent this to Godin the other day:
> 
> _I’m a passionately-Canadian finger-style folk/pop and roots player, totally pleased with my ‘95 Seagull S6 and my Norman 12-string. Now it is time to buy a 6-string accoustic for ma chérie, and it will come from one of the Godin companies—but which one? I can’t find any articles comparing the Seagull, S&P, A&L, and Norman lines with each other. If you know of any online comparison reviews or articles that have that information, please send me links. There must be a significant difference between them or you wouldn’t have structured Godin the way you have. If you have something already prepared that explains the differences in quality and the player type/style that each line appeals to, that would be ideal. There is no dealer nearby to ask.
> Thank you for your time, your great guitars, and for being Canadian!_
> 
> ...and got this reply:
> 
> _Most Seagull 6 string models have a 1.8" nut width. All 6 string models from our other lines have a 1.72" nut width.
> 
> All Seagull and Simon&Patrick models have solid tops. Some Norman and Art&Lutherie models have laminated tops.
> 
> Some Seagull and Simon&Patrick and Norman models have solid backs and sides. All Art&Lutherie models have laminated backs and sides.
> 
> Some Norman and Art&Lutherie models are available with colored finishes. Seagull and Simon&Patrick models are only available with natural finishes (a few models have a burst finish).
> 
> Seagull and Art&Lutherie models are available with Quantum electronics. Norman models are available with Fishman electronics. Simon&Patrick models are available with B-Band electronics. _
> 
> I was hoping for something like "Norman guitars tend to be our value-priced entry-level products", or "A&L are most popular with demanding roots players"--something that indicated a quality difference between the lines. Maybe you guys are right...perhaps the lines have become blurred through the years.


From what I've gleaned from the dealers, the quality goes like this.

1: Simon & Patrick
2: Seagull
3: Art & Luthrie
4: Norman


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