# Running stop signs and red lights on my bicycle.



## Gary787 (Aug 27, 2011)

my name is Gary787 and I admit I run stop signs and red lights'on my bicycle. Now to be clear I do slow down and make sure the way is safe but there is rarely a complete stop. I am a very experienced rider, I ride a lot, I am a chronic violator.

To be fair very few people in their cars stop. If you ride a bike you know cars treat stop signs as a suggestion. Drivers run yellow/red lights all day long. It is very dangerous as a pedestrian or cyclist.

Now the reason for the thread. I was riding from Hamilton to Toronto. I took Lakeshore Road it's always a nice ride. As usual I slow down but run all stop signs and red lights. Mr. Toughguy in a giant urban pick up truck took acception and decided to pull ahead almost hitting me with his mirror, stop in front of me almost causing me to hit his truck.He jumped out (I honestly was expecting violence) He told me I was a stupid inconsiderate law breaking prick (blah blah blah) and then it happened, I laughed at him. I tried not to. I then asked if his name was Colchar (I actually thought it might be he's from the GTAA now that would have been funny)
The event ended and he left with not much more to say other then a couple more insults. Shortly a cop passes me with lights flashing! Not too far up the road up the road the cops had Mr. Nasty pulled over. They waved me down. I guess another driver saw the exchange and thought there was violence. I told the cop I had never seen the guy before. In a few minutes I was on my way. Oddly I didn't get a thank you.

I rode the rest of the way to T.O. without stopping at red lights or stop signs. I took the GO train back just in case


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Bicycles on roads are vehicles and are governed by the same laws and road rules as other vehicles. If you break those laws (and survive), you should be penalized exactly like any other vehicle. 

My personal philosophy to keep my blood pressure under control as a driver is a) I give a bicyclist benefit of the doubt that they will follow the rules, b) if they do, I follow all my rules relating to bicycles (full lane treatment, standard right of way rules, etc.), c) if I see the bicyclist break the rule, particularly repeatedly, I adopt the attitude that they simply don’t exist.

Think about whom besides myself may have adopted a similar philosophy when you break road rules, OP. And whom will have a much much worse response to your behaviour.

OP represents about 80% of bicyclists on the road in most of Ontario and 100% in Toronto. YOU ARE the reason drivers have no respect for bicycles.

The other guy was hot, and over-reacted, but when you get killed on your bike, you will be 100% responsible based on your behaviour.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

I would be shocked to see a cyclist in Calgary stop at a stop sign.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I blew threw stop signs growing up. I also grew up in a town of less than 5,000 with no lights until someone died as a result of a traffic accident on the (4)17. The times I have ridden in this city, I was very conscientious of drivers and IIRC stuck to sidewalks to avoid any issues.

I currently have a non-functioning bike that I can't afford (nor desire) to repair, and a want to ride the trails in the area.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

3 posts but didn't vote...

i told the truth. i treat stop signs and more of a suggestion than a command. i don't blow through them, but i only make a full stop if i see a cop. if i'm in a parking garage, and there are no cars on this floor, and i can clearly see no one is anywhere on this floor, i don't even bother slowing down at the pedestrian crossing. i like to imagine there's a baby carriage in the crosswalk when i do that, except there's a monkey dressed as a baby in there


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Actually the thing that pisses me off equally as much as the OP in his own story is the cop. He should have ticketed the OP for all the violations and it sounds like there was enough there to impound the bike. Until the rules are fully enforced, all the hoopla about bicyclists being killed on roads is just empty words and hot air not worthy of attention or respect. When bicycles follow the laws and rules, and those are enforced, then let’s start to talk about road safety and respectful road sharing. I am not holding my breath.

Regarding poll voting, I didn’t (and don’t) even know that this has a poll. Tapatalk doesn’t give you any hints about that.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Here in Montreal. Seems cyclist have more rights to the road and none respect any law. Car drivers are being penalised here. I say that cyclists should pay for a licence, get a driving permit for they'e bikes and lose points for not respecting the rules .. 

That should start to fix part of the problems.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Not even a bit, but I'm not a road cyclist. When I ride I'm that asshole on a BMX or mountain bike weaving through traffic and jumping over sidewalks.


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## Guest (Jun 3, 2018)

And one wonders why cyclists will get no respect.


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## Gary787 (Aug 27, 2011)

To be clear I don't blow through signs and lights. If it's clear I just proceed. 
I would say most motorists break more rules then any cyclist. 
It's really rare when I see a car stop at a stop sign. Check yourself and see if you stop. 
I can't reach the speed limit because I am too old and weak but I also think that people driving the speed limit piss other motorists off more then a cyclist does. 
I get all the respect I need riding on the road. Most drivers understand the consequences of getting too impatient. There are some angry people but even then they wait when necessary and sometimes give the sign that I thinks means I'm number 1.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Gary787 said:


> I would say most motorists break more rules then any cyclist.


I get that your two posts are 25% tongue in cheek, but that comment is pure, unadulterated horseshit (I am not even going to say “with all due respect”). There are plenty of bad drivers, but COMPARED to cyclists in Ontario (and it sounds like elsewhere as well), drivers are bastions of law abiding citizenry.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

LexxM3 said:


> I get that your two posts are 25% tongue in cheek, but that comment is pure, unadulterated horseshit (I am not even going to say “with all due respect”). There are plenty of bad drivers, but COMPARED to cyclists in Ontario (and it sounds like elsewhere as well), drivers are bastions of law abiding citizenry.


It's a quandry, to be sure. Much of most cities is designed without any consideration of the very existence of cyclists, and sometimes even pedestrians. So in some respects, it's difficult to expect cyclists to adhere to a strict codeof conduct when the roads and rivers treat them as some sort of inconvenient anomaly, rather than a constituency that should adhere to a set of clear guidelines in clear context.

But respect and compliance is a two-way street. Hard to expect adherence to a code by drivers if they see blatant non-adherence from cyclists, or a specific cyclist Doesn't mean any party deserves to have something bad happen to them. But if a driver sees a cyclist cutting corners; sometimes behaving like a pedestrian, sometimes like a car driver, whenever the cyclist feels that being one brings more advantages than being the other, you can'texpect them to feel any sense of obligation to do everything they're supposed to do for cyclists By the same token, if you want people to follow any set of rules, you gotta make it easy for them. And that means real bike lanes that take you from here to there, nd not leave you high and dry after 2 blocks.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Sometimes I feel that I'm the only cyclist in Toronto that stops for reds and streetcar doors. I will admit that I probably do the chicago stop at stop signs most of the time, but unlike most other cyclists that's when I can see that there's nothing there; blind intersection or busy (all way) then I will do a proper stop. To be fair, cars blow through stop signs faster than me (even on blind corners, like the one I live on); that's a much bigger concern.

My main issue is cyclists failing to even slow down (never mind actually checking for oncoming traffic) on their red, making a right turn right on top of me going straight through my green, as well as cyclists on the wrong side of the road thinking I should go around them on the left (when I can't see if there's anyone coming up behind and no time to shoulder check due to head-on risk; they can see if it's clear or not cause they're already facing that way). That was the last time I got into a fight, some fookin ponce coming at me wrong way in rush our like I'm gonna risk it and go around.



LexxM3 said:


> I get that your two posts are 25% tongue in cheek, but that comment is pure, unadulterated horseshit (I am not even going to say “with all due respect”). There are plenty of bad drivers, but COMPARED to cyclists in Ontario (and it sounds like elsewhere as well), drivers are bastions of law abiding citizenry.


No, no they are not. Motorists not only break they law as much (especially as regards right of way - who here actually stays in the right lane when they make a right turn vs going straight into the left lane etc?), but also the potential consequences of car drivers flouting the rules are much higher (to be fair, I am not one of those delusional cyclists who believes it is only my own life I am risking; a cyclist can kill too, if usually indirectly, vs directly like a car can). I can't tell you how many times motorists have taken my life for granted for no good reason; how many times idiots have nearly killed me and the only reason I am alive is because I keep my wits about me (I bike to work all year, for the last decade +; never a single incident, but too many close calls, and I'm no Sunday driver lemme assure you- I like to go fast, within the bounds of reason and safety).

All groups are pretty much equally shitty.


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## Tarbender (Apr 7, 2006)

I am a cyclist in the city of Toronto and one of the many that does obey traffic regulations so please don't paint us all with the same brush. Drivers in Toronto can be just as reckless as some of the cyclists I have seen. I myself have been struck by a car over half a dozen times and am lucky enough to still be able to ride, but with greater attention to the automobiles around me.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Tarbender said:


> I am a cyclist in the city of Toronto and one of the many that does obey traffic regulations so please don't paint us all with the same brush. Drivers in Toronto can be just as reckless as some of the cyclists I have seen. I myself have been struck by a car over half a dozen times and am lucky enough to still be able to ride, but with greater attention to the automobiles around me.


I don’t live in TO, but when I visit, I have never seen a cyclist there that didn’t break at least 5 traffic laws every minute. So perhaps you’re not one of them, but there are definitely not many of you there, or at least so few that you’re almost entirely unnoticeable as such. Sorry. Get your brethren to behave better and then maybe that perception will change, but not until then — obviously they are not your brethren and obviously you can’t change other cyclists’ behaviour any more than I can change other drivers’ behaviours, so there we are.

But the OP and other similar posters here surely demonstrate that I am not completely wrong in my perception.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

By the way, I hope it is clear that I am not actually saying all or even most drivers are actually good. I only said that IN COMPARISON to cyclist, but certainly not in absolute terms.


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## Gary787 (Aug 27, 2011)

Try driving 100 kmh on the 401 in Ontario. You won't even get a ticket unless your going 120+. Cities are making millions off of red light cameras because an amber light now means speed up not prepare to stop. I know there are some drivers who stop sometimes at stop signs. I actually do try but I'm obviously and admittedly not perfect.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Why should cyclists have to follow the same rules as automobiles?
I think rolling stops are acceptable and if traffic and the lane is clear, no stop at all.
Cyclists have a lot more to lose.
I stopped riding road bike a few years ago, too many drivers on the road who have no clue about how deadly the car they drive is.
I think it should be mandatory driving instruction that a potential new driver rides a bike through traffic. They might get a sense of the danger they are when driving.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Sometimes I feel that I'm the only cyclist in Toronto that stops for reds and streetcar doors. I will admit that I probably do the chicago stop at stop signs most of the time, but unlike most other cyclists that's when I can see that there's nothing there; blind intersection or busy (all way) then I will do a proper stop. To be fair, cars blow through stop signs faster than me (even on blind corners, like the one I live on); that's a much bigger concern.
> 
> My main issue is cyclists failing to even slow down (never mind actually checking for oncoming traffic) on their red, making a right turn right on top of me going straight through my green, as well as cyclists on the wrong side of the road thinking I should go around them on the left (when I can't see if there's anyone coming up behind and no time to shoulder check due to head-on risk; they can see if it's clear or not cause they're already facing that way). That was the last time I got into a fight, some fookin ponce coming at me wrong way in rush our like I'm gonna risk it and go around.
> 
> ...


Honestly, I do make those turns properly. 

I drive like a pissed off teenager, but that's one thing I do right.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

LanceT said:


> Why should cyclists have to follow the same rules as automobiles?
> I think rolling stops are acceptable and if traffic and the lane is clear, no stop at all.
> Cyclists have a lot more to lose.
> I stopped riding road bike a few years ago, too many drivers on the road who have no clue about how deadly the car they drive is.
> I think it should be mandatory driving instruction that a potential new driver rides a bike through traffic. They might get a sense of the danger they are when driving.


Rolling stops should be acceptable in all vehicles. Even the tree hugging safety advocates should see the massive inefficiency in unnecessary complete stops. Stop signs = global warming.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Gary787 said:


> Try driving 100 kmh on the 401 in Ontario. You won't even get a ticket unless your going 120+. Cities are making millions off of red light cameras because an amber light now means speed up not prepare to stop. I know there are some drivers who stop sometimes at stop signs. I actually do try but *I'm obviously and admittedly not perfect.*


That’s an understatement. Based on this thread you’re an ignorant hypocrite who waives his responsibility for his own safety while placing that responsibility on everyone else. Your future is becoming bloody hamburger under the wheels of a vehicle, Gary. But rest assured other ignorant cyclists will memorialize and minimize your stupidity.

Only a fool runs stop signs on a 25 lb hunk of metal if they truly believe that none of the drivers of 2000lb hunk of metal stop for them either. Something in your logic doesn’t figure.

Ultimately we are all responsible for our own safety. If you shirk that yourself, don’t expect anyone to give a fuck about you.

Here’s an idea for your next thread. Put on some antlers and camouflage clothing, and run around the bushes during hunting season and post back telling us how unsafe hunters actions are.








A “chronic violator” is a chronic fucking idiot.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

LanceT said:


> Why should cyclists have to follow the same rules as automobiles?


I stopped reading the post after this first sentence as nothing said has any credibility after that. Since you don’t know, I will answer: BECAUSE IT’S THE LAW.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

LexxM3 said:


> I stopped reading the post after this first sentence as nothing said has any credibility after that. Since you don’t know, I will answer: BECAUSE IT’S THE LAW.


And it’s in their own best interests ie safety. But these morons think laws are just their to hassle their fun.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

LexxM3 said:


> I stopped reading the post after this first sentence as nothing said has any credibility after that. Since you don’t know, I will answer: BECAUSE IT’S THE LAW.


Fair enough. I think it’s time for changes to the laws to accommodate what is really a very different mode of transport than a car.
The best scenario though is to have dedicated cycling lanes.
And you should read the rest of my first post as an enlightened citizen.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

LanceT said:


> Fair enough. I think it’s time for changes to the laws to accommodate what is really a very different mode of transport than a car.
> The best scenario though is to have dedicated cycling lanes.
> And you should read the rest of my first post as an enlightened citizen.


I did read it, of course. Hyperbole is a fun technique. 

There are many issues coagulated in these discussions, but I’ll go on record and agree that sub-10kph rolling stops ought to be acceptable under perfect visibility conditions (not all stops and not all times meet that criteria).

Rather than making drivers ride bikes (not a bad idea, but the priority is all wrong), how about we license and require liability insurance of bicyclists. And enforce the laws and take their licenses away when they ignore the rules and escalate the punishment when riding without a license or insurance ... just like cars. Then, when things settle down there, let’s address the next problem of bad drivers (strictly speaking, a process for that is already in place for drivers, but is non-existent for bicyclists).


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)




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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Not sure what the point of those animated gifs is. Besides indicating that things collide on roads all the time and a bicycle will always lose a game of chicken with a car, there is no context for those videos. I can imagine bicycles doing something utterly stupid and getting possibly fatally punished, or drivers doing something utterly stupid and becoming murderers, or just accidents ... for both videos. Although I really don’t understand how a bicycle perpendicular to a road in the first video would ever have had the right of way.

Anyway, what was the point of the videos?

Oh and 2nd video is a motorcycle, not a bicycle. So irrelevant to this thread.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

LexxM3 said:


> I don’t live in TO, but when I visit, I have never seen a cyclist there that didn’t break at least 5 traffic laws every minute. So perhaps you’re not one of them, but there are definitely not many of you there, or at least so few that you’re almost entirely unnoticeable as such. Sorry. Get your brethren to behave better and then maybe that perception will change, but not until then — obviously they are not your


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

I run stop signs in my suburban neighborhood in Oakville. Probably would not be able to safely do the same downtown Toronto.

I don't run red lights.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

I respect the law with my car or truck... with the prices of tickets these days , one ticket equals a new amp or a new guitar ( used that is...) I'd rather put my money there... 

If I was riding a bike, I would also play it safe just like I play safe in my work... why be an idiot ???

Why would I want to hurt myself and not be able to enjoy life???

Makes you wonder with certain people. ..


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Just had a glance at the attached poll (I did vote yesterday). As of time of this post, there are 23 votes, which seems like a good participation rate. But 52.6% of the votes are ... irrational and/or nuts. So either we are mostly a bunch of sarcastic jokers (which is self-evidently at least partially true), or we are doomed.


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## John Fisher (Aug 6, 2017)

I am surprised, because ive found Hamilton cops have no mercy on anything, and I have seen them pull over many cyclists for blowing red lights and stop signs


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

LexxM3 said:


> Just had a glance at the attached poll (I did vote yesterday). As of time of this post, there are 23 votes, which seems like a good participation rate. But 52.6% of the votes are ... irrational and/or nuts. So either we are mostly a bunch of sarcastic jokers (which is self-evidently at least partially true), or we are doomed.


I was hoping and waiting for the option:

Get 3 bonus driving points for running over a cyclist!


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

John Fisher said:


> I am surprised, because ive found Hamilton cops have no mercy on anything, and I have seen them pull over many cyclists for blowing red lights and stop signs


Halifax cops used to target us for not wearing helmets when we were teenagers.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

John Fisher said:


> I am surprised, because ive found Hamilton cops have no mercy on anything, and I have seen them pull over many cyclists for blowing red lights and stop signs


Well that is encouraging to hear. I have never, however, seen a cop ticketing a cyclist.

Regarding helmets, I am personally opposed to laws that “only hurt the violator”, but we have socialized healthcare, so ... sigh, we have to have that stupid law then.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Well here's the REAL issue here. The confrontational/adversarial nature of the relationship between motorists and cyclists. Since when did it become a competition for road ownership or who follows more rules? If both sides simply respected the wellbeing and the right of the other side to be there, if they both showed some courtesy, if they both showed some common sense, if they both showed a sense of self-preservation, fack, if they both simply SHARED the road...well the situation would be entirely different.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

LanceT said:


> Fair enough. I think it’s time for changes to the laws to accommodate what is really a very different mode of transport than a car.
> The best scenario though is to have dedicated cycling lanes.
> And you should read the rest of my first post as an enlightened citizen.


Or....the best scenario is that all cyclists over 16 that do not have a drivers license, be required to take a written test of the the rules of the road that they share with other vehicles, and police enforce traffic violations of cyclists as well to ensure they understand the rules of the road, can better predict the actions of drivers and aren’t a danger to themselves.

Adding bicycle lanes are often just too expensive, under utilized esp due to seasonality in Canada, or simply not feasible in many areas. It’s not like when they designed roads, they allowed for an abundance of room for future growth.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

JBFairthorne said:


> Well here's the REAL issue here. The confrontational/adversarial nature of the relationship between motorists and cyclists. Since when did it become a competition for road ownership or who follows more rules? If both sides simply respected the wellbeing and the right of the other side to be there, if they both showed some courtesy, if they both showed some common sense, if they both showed a sense of self-preservation, fack, if they both simply SHARED the road...well the situation would be entirely different.


I agree, but in this age of entitlement, that’s a utopia.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

JBFairthorne said:


> Since when did it become a competition for road ownership or who follows more rules?


It is an inherent dominant human trait to seek parity or “justice” or “fairness” (I would genuinely love to hear a well thought out or tested hypothesis of how we evolved like that, @mhammer maybe?). Notwithstanding social outliers (martyrs and sociopaths), we tend to respond in kind. That’s “since when”.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

JBFairthorne said:


> Well here's the REAL issue here. The confrontational/adversarial nature of the relationship between motorists and cyclists. Since when did it become a competition for road ownership or who follows more rules? If both sides simply respected the wellbeing and the right of the other side to be there, if they both showed some courtesy, if they both showed some common sense, if they both showed a sense of self-preservation, fack, if they both simply SHARED the road...well the situation would be entirely different.


There's never been a competition. Cars are bigger, faster, and heavier than bicycles. 

The big issue we have in Halifax is that the most popular scenic route is a twisty, hilly, lakeside road carved into the base of a mountain. It is not wide enough to safely accommodate bikes and cars together, yet hundreds of them try to ride it every days. Cars have to drive at 20 km/h or try to pass them on a blind crest or turn and risk hitting a bus head on.


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## John Fisher (Aug 6, 2017)

I dont want to say that all Hamilton cops are dicks and show no mercy to anyone but............
I have never been nailed for not wearing a helmet. I was stopped for no light in daylight, but before he could ticket me a driver blew a stop sign so i booked lol.

What scares me now are the ebikes and the likes. They seem to ignore the rules a lot and at a speed way beyond a cyclist.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

LexxM3 said:


> Anyway, what was the point of the videos?


Just a little reminder of what happens when a bike and a car try to occupy the same space at the same time. Even if the bike has the right of way, you could end up being dead right. 

Oh, and the motorcycle.....it has much more mass than a bike. It still doesn't matter when coming into contact with something steel, and much larger and heavier. Even in relation to a relatively small car. Looks like a collision at some sort of intersection in that one. It doesn't matter who has the right of way when you're the vulnerable one when that happens.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

LexxM3 said:


> Just had a glance at the attached poll (I did vote yesterday). As of time of this post, there are 23 votes, which seems like a good participation rate. But 52.6% of the votes are ... irrational and/or nuts. So either we are mostly a bunch of sarcastic jokers (which is self-evidently at least partially true), or we are doomed.


What do you expect? The response options were absurd and biased.
garbage in, garbage out.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

John Fisher said:


> I dont want to say that all Hamilton cops are dicks and show no mercy to anyone but............
> I have never been nailed for not wearing a helmet. I was stopped for no light in daylight, but before he could ticket me a driver blew a stop sign so i booked lol.
> 
> What scares me now are the ebikes and the likes. They seem to ignore the rules a lot and at a speed way beyond a cyclist.


...and they play both sides...I’ve seen them riding like maniacs on sidewalks as well, thus endangering pedestrians with their nearly motorcycle sized ebikes.
When I was a kid I got hit by a guy on a 10-speed bike on the sidewalk that knocked out one of my teeth. Total hit and run. So when I see an adult riding on the sidewalk, I’m pretty much at ready to body check him if he gets too close. If you’re worried about your own safety, you should worry about others too... get off and walk it when ppl are around.

Bottom line, lawmakers need to recognize there’s a problem, and act in the interests of safety, and that goes beyond just blaming cars automatically.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

LexxM3 said:


> Just had a glance at the attached poll (I did vote yesterday). As of time of this post, there are 23 votes, which seems like a good participation rate. But 52.6% of the votes are ... irrational and/or nuts. So either we are mostly a bunch of sarcastic jokers (which is self-evidently at least partially true), or we are doomed.


We could also vote for multiple options. I voted honestly though. I bend the driving laws in my car most of the time, although not as much as I used to. Being a professional driver for a few years taught me a lot. I'm a much better driver now. 

When I did ride bikes, it was at a total disregard for any and all laws. I don't know that I'd be any better now.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I’d be interested in seeing stats on the breakdown of cyclists deaths male vs female....adjusted to reflect totals for each gender of course since there are likely many times more male riders.
I’d bet that male cyclists are hugely more likely to get killed than female cyclists.

IF TRUE, that makes some strong implications about cyclists attitudes and behaviours, since if it were all drivers errors, it should be roughly equal.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

LexxM3 said:


> Rather than making drivers ride bikes (not a bad idea, but the priority is all wrong), how about we license and require liability insurance of bicyclists. And enforce the laws and take their licenses away when they ignore the rules and escalate the punishment when riding without a license or insurance


This is a common enough stance. I think there may not be enough cyclists to make this cost effective as far as licensing, etc. Alternatively, I think we should be encouraging people to get out on their bikes - you'll love this - with say, tax incentives. 

No idea how one would license bikes. By use? There are many styles of bikes available, not all of them built for road. 
I have a mountain bike, specifically built for trails, and I access the trails on a section of road occasionally. Would I be subject to your licensing requirement? How about BMX bikes? What about the "Skids-On-Bikes" we are almost overrun with locally? Care to license this group? 
How about licensing long boarders? I see them on our roads frequently, plenty of fun hills around here. I'm sure seeing these individuals out using the roadways must make some people's blood boil.
Horses? Believe it or not, they are written into this city's charter that they will always be accommodated with pathways and signage and road access, etc.
My point is where does one begin with this licensing idea and where does it stop.

I think a large part of the problem with many motorists stems from simple jealousy. You're stuck in traffic of your own design while someone zips past on the shoulder on their bike.

I say bikes are fundamentally a different mode of transportation than cars and should not be lumped in with automotive use.



Diablo said:


> Adding bicycle lanes are often just too expensive, under utilized esp due to seasonality in Canada, or simply not feasible in many areas. It’s not like when they designed roads, they allowed for an abundance of room for future growth.


Yeah, arguments like this go way back. Not sure they should be considered any longer. We want sustainability and safety but don't want to pay for it.
I live in the 'burbs and the relationship between cyclists and motorists is one of hostility for many of the reasons others have posted. Why not separate the two uses? It not only benefits cyclists but potentially pedestrians and other's.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

@LanceT, I am not going to go through all that above, two comments:

- I obviously didn’t mean licensing bikes, I meant licensing cyclists

- why treat the same? you still don’t seem to understand that the laws to treat bikes the same as automobiles are there because bikes use the same resources as automobiles aka roadways; there are no road laws on back-forest trails

Bonus comment: it is definitely not jealousy, you’re completely wrong (and I’ll skip taking this to the insult level it deserves). It is the fact that a specific idiot cyclist will get themselves killed or maimed and I will be blamed for their moronic stupidity. That’s why.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Cities should be expanding sidewalks to accommodate cyclists - not the roads.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

LanceT said:


> Yeah, arguments like this go way back. Not sure they should be considered any longer. We want sustainability and safety but don't want to pay for it.
> I live in the 'burbs and the relationship between cyclists and motorists is one of hostility for many of the reasons others have posted. Why not separate the two uses? It not only benefits cyclists but potentially pedestrians and other's.


They go way back because the core principles haven’t changed.
It’s not just the money, there just isn’t the available land to magically squeeze in bike lanes. You gonna build them over sidewalks? Tear down 100yr old homes to fit in more lanes?
Plus it’s just not realistic...this is Canada not California. Other than a few freaks, Nobody is going to ride their bikes daily from November to March. The idea of biking daily doesn’t appeal to that many people in general. If you build it, they will come is just a line in a movie.

I’m sure the various cyclist associations have made great strides in raising money to contribute to improved infrastructure and safety initiatives ?

Lanes for bikes and pedestrians sounds nice, but then the same lawless yahoos will be running down pedestrians instead, since they have no interest in learning anything about safety that they can take responsibility for. I’d rather 20 dead cyclist maniacs on the road than 1 dead child that gets run down by a macho dumbass cyclist.

What shouldn’t be considered any longer is the lack of education and responsibility of cyclists who want safety but can’t be bothered to make an effort themselves.


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## John Fisher (Aug 6, 2017)

i would rather have safe bridges than bike lanes. Sorry but N.A. is not Europe, like someone else said we cant bike to work etc most times


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Man, some of the bike owners sound as stubborn, resistant to compromise and in complete denial of personal responsibility as gun owners.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

John Fisher said:


> i would rather have safe bridges than bike lanes. Sorry but N.A. is not Europe, like someone else said we cant bike to work etc most times


Do you know what else is more important than bike lanes? Hospitals. For crazy cyclists , as well as everyone else.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

LexxM3 said:


> but when you get killed on your bike, you will be 100% responsible based on your behaviour.


You know...years ago, i met a cop who didnt think i completely stopped for a stop sign and i got a ticket...i argued a little, but lke freedom...so i just paid it...now...i wait an extra second before i start moving again...

Around these parts, it sounds like cyclists are the same as toronto...but, i quote that last line because the driver is always at fault...cops side with cyclists/pedestrians for some reason...

And per another comment...drivers are getting bad as well...you almost have to wonder if its a chicken/egg scenario...does one do it because the other is seen doing it often? Are drivers ignoring rules of the road because cyclists aren't, or vice versa?


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## Gary787 (Aug 27, 2011)

Diablo said:


> That’s an understatement. Based on this thread you’re an ignorant hypocrite who waives his responsibility for his own safety while placing that responsibility on everyone else. Your future is becoming bloody hamburger under the wheels of a vehicle, Gary. But rest assured other ignorant cyclists will memorialize and minimize your stupidity.
> 
> Only a fool runs stop signs on a 25 lb hunk of metal if they truly believe that none of the drivers of 2000lb hunk of metal stop for them either. Something in your logic doesn’t figure.
> 
> ...


You know I have for the most part been pleasant on this forum . I find humour in most things but now I have been called a "fucking idiot" by 2 geniuses who I am guessing are 2 losers with nothing to do but troll the Canadian Guitar Forum. I imagine your anger is from rejection now complicated by erectile dysfunction.

Actually I'm just kidding I love to tease trolls. I am here for you Diablo, you to colchar.


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## Gary787 (Aug 27, 2011)

i got a little tired today so I rode through a park to cut a kilometre off of my ride. Where does this fit in the highway traffic act? Did I break the law again? also, since people are quoting law did you know a vehicle has to give a cyclist 1 meter clearance. The guys with the giant $70K pick up trucks that have never hauled anything but sailboat fuel need to understand this clearance is from their mirror to the cyclist.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Gary787 said:


> i got a little tired today so I rode through a park to cut a kilometre off of my ride. Where does this fit in the highway traffic act? Did I break the law again? also, since people are quoting law did you know a vehicle has to give a cyclist 1 meter clearance. The guys with the giant $70K pick up trucks that have never hauled anything but sailboat fuel need to understand this clearance is from their mirror to the cyclist.


To be blunt, if you stay off roads legislated for automotive traffic, don’t hit pedestrians sharing the resource that you are utilizing, and generally don’t undermine the value of that shared resources, none of us actual rational people give the slightest flying duck (or the other flying activity) about what you do.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

In 1992, a neighbourhood boy blew through the stop sign half way down the block from where we lived then. He was killed by the car that hit him. I feel for that faultless driver. I wonder what it's like to have killed someone indeliberately. I feel for the boy's family, his life lost so pointlessly. And the boy, he was just being a boy.

I honestly try to obey the signs (and always the lights), but I likely have a lot of rolling stops. Generally I can stop and balance briefly without putting a foot on the ground, but if there is traffic I will put a foot out. Our fair little town in Ontario is intersected by highways 8 and 21, neither of which I will ride on because *NO ONE EVER *treats cyclists like human beings who might die if they're hit. If I have to take a section of the highway (my chiropractor, or the medical clinic for example) I use the sidewalk, slowly, and give pedestrians the right of way.

At the cottage, it's mostly a lane and a half gravel road with two stop signs (both at T intersections). I give everyone the right of way there unless its obviously mine. On long weekends the place can be overrun with children, golf carts (there isn't a course for 20 miles), ATVs, seniors on bikes or scooters, rubber-necking tour-asses in everything from motorcycles to RVs, dog walkers, and the locals who drive like they own the road. A couple of times per summer there's a group of trail riding horseback riders who come down to the lake to water their steeds. In the off-season, hours can pass without a single vehicle so I ride like I own the road, but still make way for the locals.

Just bought a used Norco Mountaineer to go with my aging Schwinn Cadence. Neither are highly desirable except to me.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Who measures the distance between the mirror and the cyclist.

How do you know if it’s one meter or 1.111 metre.

What happens if the cyclist plants himself between the vehicle and the curb when there is less than a meter clearance.

I drove to L&M Bloor a few times last week. That area is always heavy traffic and the road is narrow. There were quite a few cyclist in the traffic and they were behaving themselves I think mainly out of concern for their own health because they are navigating through a moving mass of vehicles that could turn into a meat grinder pretty quick. Riding a bike in that situation is hazardous and not an activity that I would want to engage in.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

What I don’t get is these guys who rip down sidewalks on the wrong side of the road.

I almost ran a guy over who was doing just that. Then he had the balls to tell me off. Well, he got told what could have had happened. (Might have been a bit of berating involved. I was pissed that I almost ran him over)
Idiot didn’t consider that I was watching traffic/pedestrians and the light as I tried turning left...not looking for some dumbass flying up in my blind spot on the left sidewalk)


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

cboutilier said:


> Rolling stops should be acceptable in all vehicles. Even the tree hugging safety advocates should see the massive inefficiency in unnecessary complete stops. Stop signs = global warming.


Thus roundabouts...I love them


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Oh, WTF is with these road cyclists riding 2 abreast?? Good way to get dead or cause an accident. Get inline stupid. Slow moving vehicles like farm equipment have a right, YOU dont


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Gary787 said:


> You know I have for the most part been pleasant on this forum . I find humour in most things but now I have been called a "fucking idiot" by 2 geniuses who I am guessing are 2 losers with nothing to do but troll the Canadian Guitar Forum. I imagine your anger is from rejection now complicated by erectile dysfunction.
> 
> Actually I'm just kidding I love to tease trolls. I am here for you Diablo, you to colchar.


Re: fucking idiot, I don’t think I’m so much insulting you, as stating a painful fact, not about you personally... but anybody who thinks like you and behaves like you. If that happens to BE you, oh well.









Sure I’m a loser.... but your dumbass won’t be able to call me that from under someone’s wheels, cuz you know, you’re so smart and all, chronically running stop signs while judging motorists actions.

There’s so much trolling in this thread by you, that even a Simpsons vid can’t save your trolling ass.
You created a thread that goes like this: wtf is wrong with drivers, they don’t stop at stop signs...I’m a bicyclist and I dont stop at stop signs, but I don’t want to get hurt.
Textbook trolling idiot.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Scotty said:


> Thus roundabouts...I love them


I'd like them more if the rest of drivers could drive. I nearly get sideswiped 2-3 times a week in my local one. Not to mention the 1-2 people a day who still turn left into them.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I obey the law of common sense when I'm on my bicycle.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

LexxM3 said:


> @LanceT, I am not going to go through all that above, two comments:
> 
> - I obviously didn’t mean licensing bikes, I meant licensing cyclists
> 
> ...


I'll have a bit more fun with this and then be done. Internet discussions tend to be tiresome before too long.

I didn't necessarily mean licensing bikes either, I gave some examples of certain cycling and other alternate mobility groups that would be challenging to deal with license-wise.

Perhaps jealousy is too strong a word. How about envy? More realistic sounding and less of an angry word I'd say.

I watch motor cycles constantly use the curb/cycling lanes to get by heavy traffic. I watch as cyclists motor by in these same lanes. I feel envious. I can't imagine I'm alone in this. Maybe you're saintly and above simple human emotions and reactions? I envy you. Or maybe I'm jealous.

Why would you be blamed for someone else's stupidity? Guilt? If a cyclist does something stupid and puts themselves in danger, this is something that goes beyond mere laws. The law doesn't state in so many words one can't be stupid. If this was so, we would be living in a much different world.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Diablo said:


> Lanes for bikes and pedestrians sounds nice, but then the same lawless yahoos will be running down pedestrians instead, since they have no interest in learning anything about safety that they can take responsibility for. I’d rather 20 dead cyclist maniacs on the road than 1 dead child that gets run down by a macho dumbass cyclist.


Panting everyone with the same brush hey? For some reason, you dislike cyclists in general so any discussions you have involving them is tainted.

It's nice you have an opinion but sometimes your inside voice should hold sway.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

This thread is a microcosm of the real world. There are at least a couple of vehicle-only drivers that don't believe bicycles should be anywhere. Not on roads, not on sidewalks, not on trails. WTF. Are we supposed to fly? That is a huge part of the problem. There are bike riders that 'blow threw stop lights' that just makes it worse for everyone as well, IMO. Maybe that's why some of these drivers have such shitty attitudes.

I go through stop signs sometimes. But you'll never know, because there isn't a car within a half a block of me. Visibility on a bike is significantly better than in a steel cage. And self-preservation is a great motivator to gathering all the information. Do you think people texting or on their phones care much about self-preservation? Nopers, not even a little.

Other big problems (and the polar opposite of the that mentioned in the first paragraph) are drivers that think bikes are special. I stop at a stop sign or crosswalk and have cars stop for me, waiting for me to ride across the front of them. Which I refuse to do. And that makes them mad. New Rule: If you want to reinvent the laws of the road that affect all of us, you must email all of us and get our written approval. Until then, please follow all the rules as they are currently written. (Oh wait, for most of you, that's means you'd actually have to *learn* the fuckin' rules before you can actually follow them). The complete lack of driving abilities that still allows people to be out there is a joke. A sad joke.

Don't even get me started on the putzes who know hang 2 stroke engines on their bicycles frames and bomb around, sidewalks, trails, in traffic. No helmet, no tags, and usually not much for brains, either. They're going fast enough to really hurt a ped. They are mixing it up with traffic and pissing them off. They are noisy. They are aggressive. And they ARE ILLEGAL. The police do what about them? NOT. A. FUCKING. THING.

When I bought my motorbike, I talked to a racer. I was amazed that he would do something so dangerous. "Hey", he said, "where I am everyone is going the same direction. There are no fire hydrants or peds or dogs running free*. You are riding around all the confusion. You are the one in risk." Sage advice that I've been thinking about ever since.


*Oh yea, don't even get me started with dog owners allowing their dogs to run off leash in on-leash areas. This is probably the largest group of scofflaws out there. More so than speeders, more so than red light bike bandits. Even more so than driving texters.

If we want the cops to start somewhere, let's start shooting all the dumb pet owners. OK, that's a little harsh, let's just shoot their dogs. That should make a statement pretty quickly. I've crashed a few times because of bad dogs and dog owners. I won't do that anymore. I will hit and potential kill a dog now before I will swerve for it. And the owner will be at fault, not me. I'm following the rules.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

As a lifelong cyclist and long-time driver, it all comes down to time and place for everything. Never roll a stop light, but if the way is totally clear rolling a stop sign happens. Right of way and all that means nothing unprotected on a bike and courtesy goes a long way from both myself as a cyclist and driver and drivers when I'm on a bike. Since I need to continue to make a living, provide for my family and would like to live long into my golden years with my wife, I don't take stupid chances and ride quite defensively now. Be situationally aware, make lots of eye contact, acknowledge other road users, plan routes that are quieter and stay out of traffic where possible.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Cyclists admitting they break the law and run stop signs. Same cyclists state that just as many car drivers do the same. Just a matter of time before that doesn't end well. Especially since a lot of these drivers are hostile to cyclists.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Guncho said:


> I run stop signs in my suburban neighborhood in Oakville. Probably would not be able to safely do the same downtown Toronto.
> 
> I don't run red lights.


I see assholes in my neighborhood doing that all the time and it pisses me off. I've witnessed a few near misses with pedestrians. My daughter has almost been hit a couple times walking with my grand daughter home from school. 
Just because cyclists break the law serve as no justification that car drivers should be able to do it.
The older I get the more careful I seem to drive. I do stop fully at all stop signs. For the most part I obey speed limits. Especially in residential and school zones. I do turn first then signal my intention to change lanes. 
When you drive like that its amazing all the pissed off drivers behind you that think I'm not the safe driver.
I've had drivers fly past me on the highway, only to have me catch up to them 5 minutes down the highway behind traffic. You really don't get any farther ahead by being in a hurry.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Gary787 said:


> i got a little tired today so I rode through a park to cut a kilometre off of my ride. Where does this fit in the highway traffic act? Did I break the law again? also, since people are quoting law did you know a vehicle has to give a cyclist 1 meter clearance. The guys with the giant $70K pick up trucks that have never hauled anything but sailboat fuel need to understand this clearance is from their mirror to the cyclist.


I have to admit thats a stupid law. In many cases, at least in my neighborhood there isn't enough room to allow for that. They've got the bike lanes so far out there isn't much room left. You pretty much have to go in to an on coming lane to provide that much clearance. I think head on collisions are a no no to.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Seeing someone else blow a stop sign is no excuse to do it yourself. 2 wrongs don't make a right ( 3 lefts do though).

I remember when my daughter first started driving. I was in the passenger seat and we were coming up to a stop sign on a rural road. She asked if there was anything coming and I told her she didn't have to worry about that, she had to worry about coming to a stop at the sign, then worry about anything coming and look. Never take another persons word for it if you're driving, see for yourself, that is your job behind the wheel (or handle bars).


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Is the bike guy still alive ?


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## Gary787 (Aug 27, 2011)

Wardo said:


> Who measures the distance between the mirror and the cyclist.
> 
> How do you know if it’s one meter or 1.111 metre.
> 
> ...


It feels like God is doing the measuring sometimes.


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## Gary787 (Aug 27, 2011)

Frenchy99 said:


> Is the bike guy still alive ?


Who me? Alive and well. My bikes in the shop so I am back to be one youze guys again. (At least until Friday)


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## Gary787 (Aug 27, 2011)

Scotty said:


> What I don’t get is these guys who rip down sidewalks on the wrong side of the road.
> 
> I almost ran a guy over who was doing just that. Then he had the balls to tell me off. Well, he got told what could have had happened. (Might have been a bit of berating involved. I was pissed that I almost ran him over)
> Idiot didn’t consider that I was watching traffic/pedestrians and the light as I tried turning left...not looking for some dumbass flying up in my blind spot on the left sidewalk)


I agree 100% a bike on a sidewalk is dangerous. There is no fair warning to a motorist the bike appears out of nowhere. As a cyclist I berate them as well.


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## Gary787 (Aug 27, 2011)

Diablo said:


> Re: fucking idiot, I don’t think I’m so much insulting you, as stating a painful fact, not about you personally... but anybody who thinks like you and behaves like you. If that happens to BE you, oh well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no offence  but I was only being truthful. I admit I don't stop at stop signs but I said I cautiously roll through. I don't always stop at red lights I safely go through. I wasn't looking for your approval or endorsement. I am respectful of cars and drivers (not so much with pick up trucks they scare me) All of the anger is from others.
I don't mind you calling me an idiot. I honestly believe your probably a pretty decent person who expresses their thoughts in a humours way on a guitar forum. 
As far as trolling goes I am only fishing for big old carp. Some people are too predictable and easy but I do agree it's not fair so I will stop. 

Gary787(aka the idiot maybe former idiot. Time will tell)


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Gary787 said:


> I agree 100% a bike on a sidewalk is dangerous. There is no fair warning to a motorist the bike appears out of nowhere. As a cyclist I berate them as well.


Riding on the sidewalk is against the law either in all of Ontario or many cities. Where I have done window cleaning, it has always been unlawful to ride your bicycle on the sidewalk. I have been hit while cleaning windows and have stopped the person(s) and explained to them why it is unlawful to do so. Frail people must be pretty frightened when they see a bicycle coming at them on the sidewalk. The bicyclist may know he is going to go around the person, but that pedestrian can't be sure of their intentions.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> .......it has always been unlawful to ride your bicycle on the sidewalk. I have been hit while cleaning windows and have stopped the person(s) and explained to them why it is unlawful to do so.


do these people come back around for a second pass?


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Gary787 said:


> no offence  but I was only being truthful. I admit I don't stop at stop signs but I said I cautiously roll through. I don't always stop at red lights I safely go through. I wasn't looking for your approval or endorsement. I am respectful of cars and drivers (not so much with pick up trucks they scare me) All of the anger is from others.
> I don't mind you calling me an idiot. I honestly believe your probably a pretty decent person who expresses their thoughts in a humours way on a guitar forum.
> As far as trolling goes I am only fishing for big old carp. Some people are too predictable and easy but I do agree it's not fair so I will stop.
> 
> Gary787(aka the idiot maybe former idiot. Time will tell)


Carp are a ton of fun... ugly as hell though


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Gary787 said:


> no offence  but I was only being truthful. I admit I don't stop at *stop signs* but I said I cautiously roll through.* I don't always stop at red lights I safely go through.*
> 
> As far as trolling goes I am only fishing for *big old carp*.


*S*ome
*T*imes
*O*thers
*P*ause

I have no problem with those who roll through stop signs and red lights if it is done safely. The problem the authorities have with it is many people do not know how to do it safely and endanger others. I don't understand why most people drive up to a stop sign, stop and then look for oncoming traffic. Why don't they look as they are getting to the intersection? I have seen so often where that type of driving has led to long lineups at stop signs for no reason. IMO, it is discourteous to all those drivers behind you.

I have always wanted to go carp fishing. Some of those old boys grow to be huge.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

If a cyclist beans you on a sidewalk chances are they will leave the scene asap as there is very little to identify them so they get a pass and you get to live with some injuries. If you have an auto policy in Ontario there’s 200k for uninsured / unidentified so you could likely claim damages there because a bicycle is defined as a vehicle. However, insurance companies regard any claim for personal injury to be prima facia fraudulent so could be a tough row.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

High/Deaf said:


> This thread is a microcosm of the real world. There are at least a couple of vehicle-only drivers that don't believe bicycles should be anywhere. Not on roads, not on sidewalks, not on trails. WTF. Are we supposed to fly? That is a huge part of the problem. There are bike riders that 'blow threw stop lights' that just makes it worse for everyone as well, IMO. Maybe that's why some of these drivers have such shitty attitudes.
> 
> I go through stop signs sometimes. But you'll never know, because there isn't a car within a half a block of me. Visibility on a bike is significantly better than in a steel cage. And self-preservation is a great motivator to gathering all the information. Do you think people texting or on their phones care much about self-preservation? Nopers, not even a little.
> 
> ...


My professional Superbike racing friend always thought we were insane for driving motorcycles on the street


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

cboutilier said:


> My professional Superbike racing friend always thought we were insane for driving motorcycles on the street


He’s right ... lol

Years ago a friend of mine got his shoulder broken pretty good in a race that we were both in. I helped load him into the ambulance and then finished the race. 

That night my wife says to me “you know that’s gonna happen to you some day. So I said, yeah maybe we’ll do something different next weekend.

So we played golf on the following Saturday and I nearly got hit on the head twice when someone sliced one into our fairway.

Sunday we went for a drive and came close to a head on when some fucker tried to pass a long line of cars comin our way. I was contemplating going for the ditch when a space opened up and he got back into his lane. 

So I said “I’m going back to racing it’s safer than this dumb shit with golf balls and lunatic drivers.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

cboutilier said:


> My professional Superbike racing friend always thought we were insane for driving motorcycles on the street


You "drive" motorcycles?


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## Guest (Jun 6, 2018)




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## Guest (Jun 7, 2018)




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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

laristotle said:


>


yea,,. the weird shifter is the issue with this guy


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Anyone notice the pistol in that picture?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

JBFairthorne said:


> Anyone notice the pistol in that picture?


that’s what I was trying to reference in my post


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2018)

lol. I didn't notice it.
I guess it's for when he does chew up the tranny and the music's still playing ..


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