# Metal-related Tube Amp Query...



## canadiangeordie (Jan 10, 2009)

Hey
Haven't posted in a while but looking for some amp info. I am in the process of researching amps for my first tube purchase in the Fall. I currently own a Randall RG100 2x12, with the transtube technology or whatever, and i've been relatively pleased with it. But it has been in the shop for loose connections twice in a year (only played a handful of shows, very careful with my gear) and i get eaten alive by the other guitar player's Valveking.

I have been looking at the 6505, Bugera stuff (great reviews but reliability issues apparently) and more recently a Mesa Express. I plan to (if possible) tear through them all before i hand over my change.

My Randall is 100W solid state. What sort of wattage (?!) would a tube amp have to have to equate? My Randall doesn't get turned up past 5, even at band jams and medium sized shows. Would 50W/60W tube be sufficient?

Also, any more amp recommendations to try around the $1000-$1500 range? I'd love an ENGL Invader but don't feel the need to re-mortgage the house just yet...

Cheers!


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## Zacman0126 (Apr 20, 2009)

canadiangeordie said:


> Hey
> Haven't posted in a while but looking for some amp info. I am in the process of researching amps for my first tube purchase in the Fall. I currently own a Randall RG100 2x12, with the transtube technology or whatever, and i've been relatively pleased with it. But it has been in the shop for loose connections twice in a year (only played a handful of shows, very careful with my gear) and i get eaten alive by the other guitar player's Valveking.
> 
> I have been looking at the 6505, Bugera stuff (great reviews but reliability issues apparently) and more recently a Mesa Express. I plan to (if possible) tear through them all before i hand over my change.
> ...



You have some good choices to look at there, besides Bugera of course. I would just steer clear from them.

The type of wattage your looking at depends on the tubes that are in there. For example when I put KT77's in my Triple XXX, it really tamed it down. Yet I've still never been happier with the sound.

You seem to be on the right track though because 20-60 watt's would get you what you want.

Peavey has a new 6505 combo with one speaker, neat little guy that I'm sure packs a punch. It won't break the bank either.

Really keep an eye on the used market though, there are deals to be had, just gotta know where to look.


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## Andy (Sep 23, 2007)

6505 212 combo would be what you'll like best out of that, guaranteed. It's a closed-back design, which is rare in combos, which gives you more low end, but tighter definition plus it helps with stage volume.

The 112 combo IS a good recommendation, except that it's Chinese made, instead of American like the rest of the 6505s. I'd stay away, personally. Also, Mesas are great amps, and I'm especially fond of the Express/F Series, but I doubt they're the right character for what you want -- the Peavey is much tighter and focused for metal.


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## forum_crawler (Sep 25, 2008)

A Peavey ValveKing would provably do it if what you are looking for is just the head and not a combo. If this is the case, then look at the new entry level Bogners, Peavey 3120, and don't forget the Traynor YCS100H2.

I have a Peavey VK212 that I turned into a head + cab and while I did like it much better after replacing the tubes with Mesa 6L6GCs and the speakers with Eminence Wizard and Swamp Thang, I was still caught up in the never ending search for that "magic" distortion pedal that would transform my VK into that high gain monster I wanted it to be. Needless to say, I spent lots of money looking for just that.

The VK is a very loud amp, much louder than other 100W amps, and while it can give you metal sounds, it can not give you that super saturated type of gain that you get from a dual recto, or a 6505. My search ended with the YCS100H2. Great amp, less than half the cost of the dual-recto, cheaper than the Peavey 3120, 6505, and with enough gain to play in the same league as those amps as far as gain is concerned. Keeping in mind that Peaveys, Marshalls, Mesas, Bogners, Soldanos, etc tend to have a voice of their own, the Traynor is no different in that respect. It has a sound of it's own. What it can do is give you JCM800 type of tones as well as Dual Recto but it will not sound identical to the others in a blind test, but rather similar.

Traynors are Canadian built amplifiers and they are built to last. If you have a $1000 budget, and are looking for a head that will give you great cleans, great crunch and over the top distortion, keep YCS100H2 in mind when shopping.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

What tone are you after, link to a band and song that nails it for you. We can go backwards from there and sort out the amp for you.
Lots of albums are made with lots of amps, even different amps for the same song. So this will get you an idea but probably a rough idea.

$1500 buys you a a great many amps, some new some used. Your best bet right now may be to grab a used XXX,5150, 6505 and get your feet wet. The resale in two years will be what you paid and the experience you gain will help you purchase the next amp.

Metal has lots to do with the way you play, guitar, amps and speakers. I was jaming around the campfire on an accoustic playing all kinds of metal...it was a hoot and some of it sounded pretty heavy.

To beat your buddies Valveking wont take much, decent amp TS pedal and a good 2-12 and your laughing.
Heard a guy play an old Peavey Butcher tube head into a 4-12 withan MT-2 and it was Brutal. Total cost used was under $500..

That was wordy....sorry


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

You can get rodded Marshall JCM 800s for nice prices. The JCM900 SLX is a GREAT sounding metalamp that is CHEAP used. 

I regret selling mine.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Archer said:


> You can get rodded Marshall JCM 800s for nice prices. The JCM900 SLX is a GREAT sounding metalamp that is CHEAP used.
> 
> I regret selling mine.


+1 on that..but don't mod a JCM800..value would drop to much. a JCM900 with an OD..man..it will scream..and you get a head with cab for cheap these days


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## forum_crawler (Sep 25, 2008)

Bevo said:


> To beat your buddies Valveking wont take much, decent amp TS pedal and a good 2-12 and your laughing.


I think he was talking about volume. The VK212 I have is actually louder than the Traynor YCS100H2 using the same cabs, and both are rated at 100W. Naturally, the Traynor has the edge as far as distortion is concerned.

I have also played with other people plugged into 4x12 cabs, and I was louder than them with my 2x12 ValveKing. Don't underestimate this amp, it has lots of volume...


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

What is your budget?

Mesa dual rec comes to mind.. $1300-$1400 for the head, but you'd need a cab.

Aside from the shop visits, your Randall should pretty much nail what you're playing though...


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Gotcha!
Was thinking Tone not volume.

All these amps are so loud I never take the volume up that high so couldnt tell if one was louder than the other....does that mean I am to old?


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## forum_crawler (Sep 25, 2008)

Bevo said:


> Gotcha!
> Was thinking Tone not volume.
> 
> All these amps are so loud I never take the volume up that high so couldnt tell if one was louder than the other....does that mean I am to old?


Ha ha, never!!! I am sure that given the chance you would always kick it up another notch kkjuw


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

As for used metal amps there are a ton of reasonably priced "sleepers" out there. The Series I Laney AOR amps from the late 80's early 90's springs to mind. I had a 100 watt 8 knob version and it was terrifying! (A good thing) 50 tube watts is probably better for you because you'll get earlier power amp breakup at more reasonably volume than a 100 watt amp.

Maybe even a Krank Jr. Plenty loud at 20 watts.

matt


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

I don't think I am the only one who think they are crazy loud.

When I was at the April Wine concert buddy's JCM800 was 10 feet away but I was slightly off the speakers blast..cool!
Could not see his settings but asked the tech who was standing along side me.
Channel volume was cranked with master at 3 the other did not have a master and was at 6 using a Wah as volume, it was toe way up.

They of course had PA support but I think more to fill the room.
Was about 500 people in the club.


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## canadiangeordie (Jan 10, 2009)

Many thanks for the replies/input. 

In regards to the Valveking i want to make sure i'm loud enough, but also have a distinctive and sweet tone of my own. Hence why i am not considering the same amp. His is 100W tube-but never gets cranked above 4/5. So would a 50W tube amp be enough or should i go for a full 100W?

I'd never considered the Traynor-always knew how reputable those guys were but never knew of a high-gain option. I've been looking at 6505's mainly but recently came across a Carvin V3 which has rave reviews, and a small ENGL 1x12 50W tube amp...looks damn tiny though! Guess it has a bark on it.

I'd prefer a head+cab for sheer visual satisfaction but if the right combo came along i'd grab it. The more i hear a nice tube amp saturated in distortion/gain, the more i want one. The Randall is fine, it just doesn't have that 'growl' that i want. Plus i've just had it in the shop, again, and it still doesn't sound right. Its' only a year old and gets treated with plenty TLC.

I guess i should do some more research and jam on some of these monsters. What about the old JCM 800's? Laney? Crate Blue Voodoo? Bugera? They can all be snatched up pretty cheap and have good reviews on Harmony Central-aside from the Bugera's which are very mixed. They sound terrific though. 

Thanks again!


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## forum_crawler (Sep 25, 2008)

I think the Traynor YCS100H2 does have more gain than the Carvin V3. I would also say that they Traynor has more tonal options. What the Carvin does have is a fully programmable midi interface. That is very cool if you have something like a Voodoo Lab Ground Control Pro and want to control the amp + other devices that way.

The Traynor doesn't give you that option, but as far as the tone is concerned, I would have to say that it is a notch above the Carvin.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

out of every amp you've said, the ENGL will most likely do metal the best, despite it's size.

the guys who play metal in the crowd will see the logo and know what's up 

gordie, im in london now - shoot me a PM.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Theory says that 50 watts is only 3db less than 100 watts, as long as you compare tube to tube and SS to SS.
If he is not going past 4-5 then your not going to have a problem.

If both of you guys had VK's and played side by side there will still be a difference. Couple reasons, you don't play exactly the same, your guitars are not exactly the same and all of your guitar and pre amp settings are not the same.
Its like you picking up EVH's guitar and played through his rig, it would sound like you not him...bit of a stretch since I never heard you play...no offence!

Look at the tube type, design and amp features. The Mesa amps are an American sound and the Marshall is British. Those two amps lead the pack and can be summed up sound wise by the tube sets ( I am not going to mention the types since I am not the expert, others can fill in ).

Features like Midi, EQ's, Channels, Master volume (they don't all have master) etc all matter. Find the common stuff you want to use and look at amps with those features. 
This is a way to compare apples to apples.. A non master JCM800 compared to a 6505+ is like grapes to water melons....that reminds me lunch time!!

Hope that helps.


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## forum_crawler (Sep 25, 2008)

Bevo said:


> Theory says that 50 watts is only 3db less than 100 watts, as long as you compare tube to tube and SS to SS.
> If he is not going past 4-5 then your not going to have a problem.
> 
> If both of you guys had VK's and played side by side there will still be a difference. Couple reasons, you don't play exactly the same, your guitars are not exactly the same and all of your guitar and pre amp settings are not the same.
> ...


Good points here, the VK will require a pedal in front. For metal it would provably benefit from a high gainer like a Wampler Triple Recstortion, or a SansAmp GT2. I know this because I have gone through the same thing. Mine changed in character a bit when I replaced the crappy sovteks with Mesa 6L6GCs, and the pre-amp tubes with EH 12AX7s.

Speakers also made a huge difference. Switching from the VK OEM speakers to Eminence Wizard and Swamp Thang. The amp does have a lot of headroom and I would run distortion pedals and a booster after for leads, this had the benefit of raising the volume of the distorted signal and pushing the tubes hard enough to colour the leads with their own overdrive.

Sad part is that I don't think there is a pedal that you can buy from say, Long & McQuade that will give you awesome metal tones from the VK. You will need some real high gain pedal like an Emma PisdiYAUwot (not out yet), Wampler Triple Recstortion, Barber Dirty Bomb, or Keeley Modded Metal Zone. And if you want classic sounds, well that is another story...

It was for this reason that I opted for another amp, and I was going to get a Mesa Dual Recto, but opted for the Traynor because of versatility, and price. I honestly don't think that twice + a bit for the mesa got me twice the amp. But that is just me...


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

actually, a boss MT-2 into a VK sounded great for metalcore, i was really impressed.

There's a few great metal amps, much better at metal than the traynors, within your price range.

Heck, grab a mesa mark III and call it a day.


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## forum_crawler (Sep 25, 2008)

Budda said:


> actually, a boss MT-2 into a VK sounded great for metalcore, i was really impressed.
> 
> There's a few great metal amps, much better at metal than the traynors, within your price range.
> 
> Heck, grab a mesa mark III and call it a day.


I had the Keeley modded MT-2 and it sounded not too bad with the VK212. Here is a video of me playing live with the MT-2 as my main distortion and a Boss GT-6 for effects, volume gain, EQ, etc. My VK was stock at this point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYKWoVVqXNc


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

The 6505 is the thing that immediately comes to my mind for metal. Insane gain, crunch and power. Very capable amp of doing just about everything in the rock genre.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

a recorded 5150 just about never sounds like a live 5150 though, something to keep in mind. Layering, post processing, EQ'ing beyond the amp's 5 EQ knobs, all that jazz. That said, a 5150 in a live setting will still sound amazing for metal \m/


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