# Approx cost to replace...??



## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

Dear Valued Amp tech Membership..

I'm seeking advise on what it would cost to replace a Power transformer, a rectifier tube and a capacitor in a 5F1 Champ Klone? Not being Amp tech savvy, Parts, time on the bench, what would be the price to do the job out the door? The Tranny was $65 USD, the cap was $20, and the Rectifier tube, (JJ) was $28. Parts were supplied by the Tech.

Your input is deeply appreciated.

John


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

After I posted, I realized that I should elaborate more.

I felt I was taken advantage of on the cost of this repair by a local tech, which I would like to keep anonymous.

Total cost of the repair was $349.00 which I thought was really steep for the parts just being over $100 USD.

Am I out of line here or is the Tech? Before he started I made, it clear that I only have about $220.00 in the chassis and for him to notify me if the costs exceeded that.
He chose to ignore that request and went ahead on his own accord.

After almost 2 months in his shop he called me to pick up the amp. He insisted that the costs were justifiable and he was giving me a bargain on how much it should have cost, and was giving me 1/2 the labor costs as a deal.


I can't stop thinking about this, and I need some of the memberships feedback on this.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

What do you think is a reasonable hourly rate for the tech to charge, and what does that translate to in terms of hours?


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

He stated his rate was $60/hr. Which is reasonable. But he also mentioned that he had 3 hours into the job, of which he only charged me half of....$90. Where is the rest of the costs?.. Up charging the parts? Not sure what is typical of an up charge, but would both total to $349?... Unreasonable.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

I would have thought that about 3 hours at $60 per hour plus parts is reasonable. Seems to me that if he is guilty of something, it is poor communication.


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

Regardless, his lack of communication worked entirely in his favor because if I would have known that these costs would have well beyond the price of a new completed chassis, I would have done that instead. 
Obviously padding his Christmas fund I suppose. Short term greed, will cost him in the long run....Just bad Buisness.


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## ampaholic (Sep 19, 2006)

I'm not sticking up for anyone here but if the parts are $100 US then in Canadian funds that's likely $135. Add sales tax when they come through Customs and you're easily over $150 just for the parts. And were they shipped free?
Regardless, with the parts costing at least $150 and a service rate of $60 per hour I don't see how either of you could have expected to come in under the $220 budget?


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

It's easy really. All he had to do was pick up the phone and let me know that the budget will be exceeded if he continued. I would have paid him for his time and just ordered a new Chassis. And estimate of cost was ignored and he figured he had an open check book. Any good tech would have given me the cost up front before proceeding. He was well aware of the budget but chose to ignore it. That's what infuriates me.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

It's not always that easy... sometimes things unfold or are revealed during the course of a repair and in the midst of it the most logical thing to do is finish it up rather than hand back a bunch of parts.

He may have been trying in earnest to meet your (low) price expectation and found himself way short on the deal.

He is likely inexperienced handling customers and is still trying to sort out repairs to avoid and how to manage customer expectations.

I'm sure whoever it was, he is not living high on the hog and I suspect you may have gotten the better end of the deal. People deserve to make a living.

Focus on the reality that you paid a reasonable amount for the repair and have your amp back working. I'm sure you both would approach things differently in hindsight.

Edited to add:

Let me clarify... I don't condone the tech's blowing of the budget and miscommunication, I just don't suspect that the tech's motives where as dastard as they have been represented.


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

Well said Dave, and perhaps I was a little harsh on his motives. I keep thinking on how I could have done things differently in this case, and I don't think I could have done anything different to change the outcome, but I think he could have. It is true that he lacks customer relations. I have heard about other instances where customers weren't satisfied with his work, but he always treated me well with past experiences through the years. thats why I went to him in the first place. 
Good techs, such as yourself, are hard to come by. I respect your opinions, and was hoping you'd chime in. But when the time comes to shop for an Amp tech, more care will be taken on my part to choose wisely.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

urko99 said:


> It is true that he lacks customer relations. I have heard about other instances where customers weren't satisfied with his work, but he always treated me well with past experiences through the years. thats why I went to him in the first place.


Would you be open to letting us know the name of the tech by sending a PM to anyone who asks?

BTW...I'm asking in this post.

Cheers

Dave


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

Respectfully no. Pm sent to explain why.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

urko99 said:


> Respectfully no. Pm sent to explain why.


PM replied to. I fully understand. Thanks for explaining.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

Consider yourself lucky to find someone that can fix your scrap. It is a throw away world.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Distortion said:


> Consider yourself lucky to find someone that can fix your* scrap*. It is a throw away world.


Since when is a 5F1 Champ clone classed as "scrap"?

If you ever decide to just throw one of yours away, I'll take it.


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

Lucky? Yes, to find a good Tech. Easier to find a bad one. All opinions are welcome.


Distortion said:


> Consider yourself lucky to find someone that can fix your scrap. It is a throw away world.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Urko, I appreciate you not mentioning names here, it makes it easier for us to speak candidly. I don't like seeing techs get bashed, but I don't like seeing customers getting poor service either.
For starters, I'm not sure if that price was before tax or not. I'll assume 350 plus tax. Right now 1US is 1.35CDN.
Ampaholic mentioned shipping, this is a killer with transformers. I was looking at a $55US transformer and shipping was $50US. So lets knock it down to $285. Parts cost comes out to about $152 before any mark up. So we're at $133. He said 90 was labour, so I'll call that $43 markup, about 30%. Seems a bit stiff to me, but so do the costs. Where did you get the parts prices? Are they retail? If he's in the business he should not be paying retail, so he can mark it up and sell to you for retail. Here's some retail costs anyone here can buy this stuff for: JJ 5Y3 $15US. Power xfrmr equiv. to 022772 $50US. 20uf 450V filter cap $5 US. So those part costs are high, before any markup. Unless it's one of those multi-cap metal cans, which can be pricey.
Now for labour, I will respectfully disagree with dradlin and say 3 hours is way too much. It's a Champ. I bet there are guys that can assemble a whole Champ chassis in 3 hrs. The 1.5hrs he said he charged seems about right, maybe 2hrs if there was some tricky troubleshooting, but again, it's a Champ. I don't get it.
Now to the communication breakdown. Does he acknowledge what you told him originally about the limit?
I can only say what I would have done. First I would never order or install parts worth that without approval first. And if I did somehow make that error, then the parts go at cost and I would eat most of the labour. I think if he gave it to you for $220, he would still be doing ok.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

By the way, can you just let him keep it? Was there a deposit?
Does anyone think that would be unfair?


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

jb welder said:


> Urko, I appreciate you not mentioning names here, it makes it easier for us to speak candidly. I don't like seeing techs get bashed, but I don't like seeing customers getting poor service either.
> For starters, I'm not sure if that price was before tax or not. I'll assume 350 plus tax. Right now 1US is 1.35CDN.
> Ampaholic mentioned shipping, this is a killer with transformers. I was looking at a $55US transformer and shipping was $50US. So lets knock it down to $285. Parts cost comes out to about $152 before any mark up. So we're at $133. He said 90 was labour, so I'll call that $43 markup, about 30%. Seems a bit stiff to me, but so do the costs. Where did you get the parts prices? Are they retail? If he's in the business he should not be paying retail, so he can mark it up and sell to you for retail. Here's some retail costs anyone here can buy this stuff for: JJ 5Y3 $15US. Power xfrmr equiv. to 022772 $50US. 20uf 450V filter cap $5 US. So those part costs are high, before any markup. Unless it's one of those multi-cap metal cans, which can be pricey.
> Now for labour, I will respectfully disagree with dradlin and say 3 hours is way too much. It's a Champ. I bet there are guys that can assemble a whole Champ chassis in 3 hrs. The 1.5hrs he said he charged seems about right, maybe 2hrs if there was some tricky troubleshooting, but again, it's a Champ. I don't get it.
> ...


$350 taxes in. Part prices were quoted by him, and he mentioned he was marking them up. He did mention shipping was expensive for the tranny.
Yes he was well aware of the limit discussed with him initially when I brought the amp to him. I also reminded him after his first call back to me with his analysis, letting me know that the tranny was blown. He did not mention the filter cap at that time. It seems like he purchased the parts for retail and then marked them up and then some. The filter cap is a 450V16uf and the tranny is a W022772. He gave me back the old parts. 
No deposit was given or needed. The amp is in a custom pine tall boy cabinet housing a 12" Webber speaker so I wanted it back. It's my little 20 lb. grab and go amp that I put together myself. I got the inspiration from the Valvetrain tall boy with the Tweed Princeton circuit.

I thank you JB welder for chiming in. You obviously know a thing or two when it comes amp repair and this is what I'm looking for from the membership here. Even if the limit was slightly exceeded I would have paid it but not $130 over budget.

I truly think that after this incident, I'm gaining inspiration to try to build one of these on my own. With step by step instructions it really doesn't look that complex. I'm pretty good at soldering so it may be worth a try.

I seem to be derailing my own thread here! I still welcome any input from the membership in this matter.
It would be greatly appreciated.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

If you're decent at soldering as you say, the rest is a piece of cake - essentially, paint by numbers, especially with a Champ. The worst is the tube sockets, but only because it's tight not because it's overly complex.


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

I took in a Kustom Defender 15 awhile back blowing fuses. Diagnosis: blown power transformer. This wasn't surprising as it's not much bigger than a Champ transformer but runs EL34's. The transformer was $US80, pretty reasonable I thought. By the time it arrived, brokerage, shipping and exchange in, Cdn$201. A few bias caps were gone as well so they had to be replaced, a few dollars each. Being on crutches from hip replacement surgery I had to sub out the repairs to a friend, $85. With GST the total was $296. My profit?-ZERO.
This is just an example, not a direct comparison but it does shed some light on the cost of importing parts. Labour was probably a little high in your case.


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

Thanks for your input WCGill. That really puts things in perspective as far as costs to import as well as labor to install.
I'm beginning to se a trend developing here that a ball park cost should have been between $225 and $275 still interested to hear from more of you, at your convenience.


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

keto said:


> If you're decent at soldering as you say, the rest is a piece of cake - essentially, paint by numbers, especially with a Champ. The worst is the tube sockets, but only because it's tight not because it's overly complex.


I use to work for a garage door Opener Manufacturer back in the day and I use to solder all the circuitry for the remotes.
Just did it for a couple of months, but got pretty good at distinguishing a good solder joint from a bad one. I didn't know the theory on how it worked, but I didn't have to. Strictly production.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

This is just my point of view so take it with a grain or three of NaCl. You said that you told him that $200 was your limit and for him to notify you if he went over and that he agreed to this stipulation From the sounds of it the parts alone, with exchange, shipping and mark-up come very close to your limit. He should have known the price of the parts before ordering them and notified you. The amount of time people say that it should take to fix your amp kit....I take it that it's a kit....really doesn't matter. If your tech, or ex tech, is like me he now wears magnifying glasses to do things like soldering fine wires.
Me, I'd try to come to an agreement as close to my upper limit as possible. If that doesn't happen I'd tell him to pull the parts, pay him for his labour, take what's left of the amp and go. If you have something in writing stating your upper limit, so much the better.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

urko99 said:


> $350 taxes in.


Well, that goes in his favour then. Let's call it a $310 repair. Less $90 for labour leaves $220 for the parts.
Mr. Gill said he thought labour was a little high, I assume he meant the 1.5hr and agree. But it's not outrageous. The 3hr would be, if you're charging pro rates, you can't bill for that kind of time for this job. So the $90 seems somewhat acceptable.
The $220 for parts still seems quite high to me. That's a Weber part # for the transformer. Their retail price is $45 + 55 shipping in US. They sell that cap for a buck and change. So with exchange that's $135CDN. JJ 5Y3 retails for less than $28 here in Canadian funds.
But this is all aside from the point. When he told you it needed a transformer you said you reminded him of the limit. He should not have proceeded if he couldn't do it for that price.


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

Yes precisely my point.


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

Electraglide said:


> This is just my point of view so take it with a grain or three of NaCl. You said that you told him that $200 was your limit and for him to notify you if he went over and that he agreed to this stipulation From the sounds of it the parts alone, with exchange, shipping and mark-up come very close to your limit. He should have known the price of the parts before ordering them and notified you. The amount of time people say that it should take to fix your amp kit....I take it that it's a kit....really doesn't matter. If your tech, or ex tech, is like me he now wears magnifying glasses to do things like soldering fine wires.
> Me, I'd try to come to an agreement as close to my upper limit as possible. If that doesn't happen I'd tell him to pull the parts, pay him for his labour, take what's left of the amp and go. If you have something in writing stating your upper limit, so much the better.


Unfortunately nothing in writing. I've been dealing with him for a number of years and never had problems like this. Took for granted that a written agreement or estimate wasn't necessary. On the contrary.


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## epis (Feb 25, 2012)

If you needed written agreement, that means you didn't trust him at first. I would never give to anybody work to do if I didn't trust him.
That's why I fix my own car as well 
Your main mistake was to go to "BMW dealership to fix your bicycle". Why you didn't try to find some of the forum members, hobby amp builders in your area,
somebody would fix it for fraction of your cost in less than 3 hours. I would do it for you for case of beer (or less), if I were closer. Maybe it's only me, I don't know.
Anyway, sorry I couldn't help you. Cheers, Damir


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

Mostly because I've used him in the past without incident. It doesn't cross your mind to look elsewhere when you've never had a problem. As far as Forum members close, I don't know of any that repair or build Amps, without shipping it out a couple hundred miles. Randy Faye from Phaez Amps is in town but from what I hear, he only works on his own designs.

Pleased to make your aquaintence epis. Now I wished you lived closer as well, hindsight being 20/20. You'd have a tough time getting away with that case of beer without sharing a pint or two with me!...ha!


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## jacquesport (Nov 30, 2015)

Just a thought. 3 hours seems like a lot of time to change a power tranny, a cap, and a tube on a fender 5f1.

Sent from my SM-N900W8 using Tapatalk


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

urko99 said:


> Mostly because I've used him in the past without incident. It doesn't cross your mind to look elsewhere when you've never had a problem. As far as Forum members close, I don't know of any that repair or build Amps, without shipping it out a couple hundred miles. Randy Faye from Phaez Amps is in town but from what I hear, he only works on his own designs.
> 
> Pleased to make your aquaintence epis. Now I wished you lived closer as well, hindsight being 20/20. You'd have a tough time getting away with that case of beer without sharing a pint or two with me!...ha!


Look up Mike Beauchamp at amplification.ca...


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

Thanks Dave.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

Did you walk in throw the amp on the bench and tell the tech what parts to replace ? I would suspect the Tech had to spend a fair bit of time diagnosing what the amp needed before he did the repairs. That stuff ain't free.


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

I don't expect it to be free, however, as mentioned more than once in this post by other members, that the labor was quoted too high for the work being performed.
It's a 5F1 Champ.


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

A 5F1 transformer, is $48 US. Plus shipping yadda, yadda, figure up to $100 CAN. See here: http://www.classictone.net/40-18019.html

A single capacitor? Like this one? https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/C-ET16-475-FT Call it $12 shipped in the mail.

A NOS 5Y3 can be had for $20. Delivered. Total $132 CAN. Total repair bill was $349? The guy repairing your amp does it for a living.
Everything is going up all around us. He needs to make more to eat and pay his mortgage. It is pricy? Yes I think so, for a clone 5F1 amp, it's a pricy investment.
The tech charged a fair price for his services. Problem is though, its a clone 5F1. Resale on that right now is what? Probably $450? It was worth $450 before it broke.
Now you have another $349 in it and it's still worth $450. The tech charges the same amount to fix them all. Original valuable vintage 5F1, or its clones.
Me? I'm so cheap I learn to do everything myself, the hard way. Today I service my own amps after putting in countless hours of time on research and practical 
experience. Stubborn too. Took 2 times building a baffle board for my 1964 6G2 to get it right. 3x I had to cover the grill cloth to get it straight.


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

Respectfully, Sorry but the math doesn't add up. Even if you buy the parts and add the labor cost which he claims is 3 hours, he still falls short.
If you read through the posts, nothing was mentioned about about the communications about the upper limits being exceeded, which he chose
to ignore, and move forward on his own accord.
However, I highly respect you being able to dedicate the time and efforts you put towards your own repair projects. Good on you for that. I envy the spare time 
you dedicate, and only wish had the same.


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