# OK, whats the deal with these energy people



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I have been hit three days in a row by three different "energy" companies trying to get me to switch to them. What is the deal with these companies? Anyone have experience with them? Is it something to look into?


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I have been hit three days in a row by three different "energy" companies trying to get me to switch to them. What is the deal with these companies? Anyone have experience with them? Is it something to look into?


I am no expert, but I have always been told a resounding NO. 

I have no idea how they even manage to get into my building. I think they just keep buzzing people till someone opens the door, then hit every door in here. Their incredibly shady practices are enough to scare me away.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

I had door-to-door salespeople a few years back combing for new customers. They were telling me about all kinds of deals and savings. Here's the catch....most want you to sign a contract. Once your locked in, not unlike cell phone plans, it's difficult/expensive to get out of it. Often they'll lure you in by offering an introductory rate. If energy prices soar, as they most certainly will once the economy gets back on track, you could very well find yourself paying more than the old stanby. Who knows.

Shawn


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## Spike (May 31, 2008)

Stay away completely, or do plenty of research before you sign anything. I watched a few minutes of this on CBC last month while flipping channels.


http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2009/power_of_persuasion/main.html


Looks like many (if not all) of them are trained to lie, confuse, and do whatever it takes to get a signature.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Spike said:


> Stay away completely, or do plenty of research before you sign anything. I watched a few minutes of this on CBC last month while flipping channels.
> 
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/marketplace/2009/power_of_persuasion/main.html
> ...


Yup.... falls in the too good to be true category.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

They had a piece of the local CBC news recently about it. Their bottom line was: stay away. It often costs more in the long run, and you cant get away from them after you sign on.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Thats all I need to hear. Appreciate the info. They are getting turfed the next time they show up. Getting bled by hydro is bad enough, dont need these fools on top of it.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Thats all I need to hear. Appreciate the info. They are getting turfed the next time they show up. Getting bled by hydro is bad enough, dont need these fools on top of it.


 Actually, this is all bad advice by people who have obviously not had the experience. I have had the experience of both locking into a contract with my business and my house with gas and electricity. I benefited greatly in both cases. Case scenario; my manufacturing company uses a ton of electricity. When I locked in the first time for 5 years, I locked in at a rate that I felt was a little high but I decided to take a chance. 5 years later, when it came time to renew, standard rates had increased to more then double the rate I had been paying for the previous 5 years. I was saving big bucks! It was a real shock, when my contract expired. My electricity bill more then doubled. My existing contract expires this November. They are pushing me to renew now at a slightly higher rate. I have heard energy prices will drop this summer, so I will wait until then. Just to confirm, when you sign the contract, you are committed to that rate for the term. It never changes. You are also commited to thye value of the contract over the term. If your business goes belly up, you must pay them what you would have paid them over the remaining period.

With my house, I experienced the exact same thing. I signed a contract with my gas provider and came out way ahead. The problem is, when it came time to renew, for some reason I was skeptical, like all the others here who replied and decided not to renew. This winter, I paid gas bills that were higher then I have ever experienced in 9 years living here! I will probably sign a contract this summer, when rates are expected to drop.

The reality is gas and electricity will only go up. Yes, there is a blip expected this summer, so it may be the time to look into this.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> Actually, this is all bad advice by people who have obviously not had the experience. I have had the experience of both locking into a contract with my business and my house with gas and electricity. I benefited greatly in both cases. Case scenario; my manufacturing company uses a ton of electricity. When I locked in the first time for 5 years, I locked in at a rate that I felt was a little high but I decided to take a chance. 5 years later, when it came time to renew, standard rates had increased to more then double the rate I had been paying for the previous 5 years. I was saving big bucks! It was a real shock, when my contract expired. My electricity bill more then doubled. My existing contract expires this November. They are pushing me to renew now at a slightly higher rate. I have heard energy prices will drop this summer, so I will wait until then. Just to confirm, when you sign the contract, you are committed to that rate for the term. It never changes. You are also commited to thye value of the contract over the term. If your business goes belly up, you must pay them what you would have paid them over the remaining period.
> 
> With my house, I experienced the exact same thing. I signed a contract with my gas provider and came out way ahead. The problem is, when it came time to renew, for some reason I was skeptical, like all the others here who replied and decided not to renew. This winter, I paid gas bills that were higher then I have ever experienced in 9 years living here! I will probably sign a contract this summer, when rates are expected to drop.
> 
> The reality is gas and electricity will only go up. Yes, there is a blip expected this summer, so it may be the time to look into this.



It can go both way though which is why you need to research.

The last tenant in this building was on a contract which had just ended. We decided not to renew that one, and not have any equal billing options. We literally paid less than half of what the previous tenant paid over the last year. And that's with higher gas prices.


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## Spike (May 31, 2008)

I'm stepping in again as we may be talking about two different things:

1) locking in to a fixed rate from your existing energy provider.

2) switching to a new energy provider and locking into a fixed rate.

The ability to lock into a fixed rate has been there for years and can be good or bad depending on the deal you make and how the future unfolds. 

Recent deregulation has led to a slew of new energy providers knocking on doors. Some portion of these are using questionable sales tactics and are promising savings that never come.

Caveat emptor


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

ne1roc said:


> Just to confirm, when you sign the contract, you are committed to that rate for the term. It never changes. You are also commited to thye value of the contract over the term. If your business goes belly up, you must pay them what you would have paid them over the remaining period.


My experience was with an alternative to Union Gas at the time. I cannnot remember their name. Their deal was a prorated introductory offer for 12 months. The contract was for 2 years if memeory serves. At which point the rates would be adjusted to *their* standard rate. This gave me the willies, but after reading the links posted here I'd be careful. I don't think people here are giving bad advice, just advising caution. 

Shawn


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## Guest (Apr 19, 2009)

torndownunit said:


> I am no expert, but I have always been told a resounding NO.
> 
> I have no idea how they even manage to get into my building. I think they just keep buzzing people till someone opens the door, then hit every door in here. Their incredibly shady practices are enough to scare me away.


Tell them to 'FLICK Off!'


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Anyone coming to my door better be prepared for profanity and obnoxiousness. I hate people selling at my door. The deal with energy companies is they lock in your price for the gas only, they don't tell you about the "cost of transportation" and other fees going up.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Spike said:


> I'm stepping in again as we may be talking about two different things:
> 
> 1) locking in to a fixed rate from your existing energy provider.
> 
> ...



Yes, I was initially talking about these other companies such as Direct Energy etc. Not the local hydro company. These other companies use a locked in rate that is supposed to be from some average usage number that is generated from the area they are in. So any fluctuations and you would either be paying more or less, I guess.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

These companies are what are known as "energy brokers". They buy up blocks of longterm commitments to natural gas or electricity suppliers and then use their volume discount to offer a smaller discount to their own customers.

I remember when this practice first started some years ago with the deregulation of natural gas. My door was constantly being knocked upon. One guy actually had a van painted up as the "Natural Gas Company"! He had a hat with the name and a clipboard. The trick was when he identified himself he IMPLIED he was with MY natural gas company! Then he wanted to see one of my gas bills, "just to show me how he could offer savings".

Not having been born yesterday on a turnip truck, it was easy to see through his scam. Newspaper reports had told of how these guys would take your account number off your bill and use it to transfer your account to THEM without your knowledge or permission!

What's more, the idea of offering a long term contract or a lifetime guarantee is one of the oldest tricks of the trade. It all depends on the company still being around to honour their promises! When natural gas took a giant hike in the mid 90's many of those broker companies that owned locked-in low-priced contracts with too many homeowners simply declared bankruptcy! They were immediately off the hook, the contract was moot and the homeowner was left scrambling for a new supplier.

Although I never was taken myself I had friends and family who had fallen victim to such ruses. This left a bad taste in my mouth and since then I refuse to even consider any offer from someone who bangs on my door.

I also gently tell any telemarketers that I simply will not do any business or make any donation as the result of an unsolicited phone call.

I might be paying a little more but at least I don't have the worries!

:food-smiley-004:


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I would be very careful as to what's being sold.

There are some people pulling scams out there.

Here's my advice--although not from an Ontario perspective--it should still apply.

1--*Do NOT, that is NOT show them you current utility bill.* In Alberta there have been sales people who say they are from the company that would bill anyone not on a contract (Each part of Alberta has a "Default" retailer that bills a certain area for electricity and/or gas---unless they're on a contract. So "salesmen" pretend to be from that company and with your bill can sign you up for higher rates for the other company. People have been able to get out of these--but it takes a lot of time and it's a hassle--I know people who went through this. If the person at your door is not with any utility company they may use that info to try and get other info on you as well.

2-*Ask them to leave a contract with you to review.* If they refuse to do this--don't sign. They may be legit--but they are not following the rules.

3-*Ask if they have a website you can look up more details.*-They should give this to you. 

4-*Call the company in question*-If possible do it from the phone book or listing elsewhere, not the door to door sales person.

5-In Alberta there is a website put in place by the government to help us sort things out. It does not favour any of the options. I don't know if Ontario offers this or not. 

6-Utility contracts can be good or bad--depending on when you sign, what you sign, and what happens to the rates after you sign. Look for what options you have to switch options and to cancel or move--there will probably be notice periods.

7-In Alberta there is a cooling period for all contracts of any sort--it gives you 10 days to cancel it--but be aware of what constitutes giving that notice.

8-Keep records of days, times, names, and what was discussed. Keep records of faxes sent or received, etc.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Had one of them ask for my gas bill. I told them if he was from my gas company, he would have access to it through the office. Then I told him to [email protected]#k off.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Yep, thats the first thing all three of them wanted to do. "review" my hydro bill. I told them I did not have time to waste with that. Asked them to leave me some literature and I would look into it. I don't have a good feeling about the whole thing. When they evade questions its always a bad sign.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I also forgot--NEVER, ever sign anything.

One scam used by door to door scam artists--whether they represent legitimate companies or not, is asking you to sign something saying they talked with you--so they can show their boss they weren't slacking off--but actually working.

They don't need to do that--they make you sign a contract and then try proving it wasn't you who signed it.


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## Zacman0126 (Apr 20, 2009)

I feel the need to enter this thread and clarify a few things as I see them.

I'll be up front, I used to work for AES. They are assholes, they bend the law, but they do not break it. I worked there for 4 months until I got so sick of being told to use pressure tactics, it wasn't me so I was gone.

Some things to note right off the bat:

In Alberta if your not happy with signing the contract, you legally have 90 days (It's at least 90 days, although if memory suits me it's 3 months) to back out of a contract, it's provincial law. There is nothing they can do to stop you, I found this out while working for them.

Another tid-bit, ask them straight out "Are you a representative of my utilities provider?". If they say yes, they are breaking the law, that is fraud/misrepresentation. Keep them at the door and call the police, an example needs to be made of them by having them arrested.

when I was working for them someone went around saying they were with the utilities, he was fined, and fired. One idiot makes a whole company look bad unfourtunetely.

These contracts are good for some people, and not for others. People living alone in an apartment, not so great. A family of 4 or more that take long showers and leave the tv on all night is more like it.

I'll happily answer any questions anyone has regarding this/these companies and they're tactics. you respect me I respect you. i'm not here to defend any of the company's, I left them over 2 years ago and happily work in the transportation industry now, ie: don't flame me.


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## Zacman0126 (Apr 20, 2009)

One more thing: Not a Troll. didn't join just for this thread. I've been on Harmony Central for over a year now and another Canadian over there had this site link in his sig, so I signed up just the other day. Same SN over there, feel free to check.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Zacman0126 said:


> One more thing: Not a Troll. didn't join just for this thread. I've been on Harmony Central for over a year now and another Canadian over there had this site link in his sig, so I signed up just the other day. Same SN over there, feel free to check.


Your honestly is welcome over here.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Zacman0126 said:


> These contracts are good for some people, and not for others. People living alone in an apartment, not so great. A family of 4 or more that take long showers and leave the tv on all night is more like it.




Welcome to the forum. 

There is probably province by province differences in the companies and their approaches and how they are run. Here in Ontario it is becoming more commonly stated by police agencies to not even answer the door to the people that come knocking, let alone show or tell them anything. Here at least there has been too many cases of fraud on the contractors part, or home invasion or identity theft on the knockers part. So, for the members here in Ontario that are strongly recommending the "don't do a thing" approach, there is enough current issues and police messaging being given here that backs their approach.

I cannot speak of what the experiences are that people have had in other provinces though. It could be Ontario has issues because of the size and perceived wealth of the people here? Or we simply have more resellers overall. 

From my own personal experience, and how I feel. When I lived in Hamilton, I had a different company a week for the longest time, and sometimes three or more companies a week, knocking and wanting each of water/fuel/electricity contracts... in the end I simply got fed up with any of them knocking. If it came to a vote, I would support the sale of any contracted anything (gas, encyclopaedias, the Toronto Sun you name it) being made illegal on a door to door basis or over the phone. Brick and mortar is what carry the weight for me in the long run; have an office and have my patronage. Anything more I could say would be political and against board rules  so I shush now.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Living in the boonies helps limit some of the door to door stuff.

kkjwpw We do get the home reno on credit guys every once in awhile. The last one was funny...I asked him if he saw the sign on the lawn.... your trying to sell home renos to a contractor. These guys bug me because I have to go around and fix their work then I get to hear what they are charging for it.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

The people who come to the door with these pitches are slimy and irritating as hell. The only door to door salesmen I want to see are kids selling chocolate bars.


If I want anything else, I'll go looking. I try to be polite, but some of those F%$kers are pushy.

I've actually had to say "Get off of my property now" more than once. I feel bad for the old folks who might be easier targets.


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## ashm70 (Apr 2, 2009)

Oakville resident here...

They come around my place quite a bit. I have been asked for my bill several times. I have experienced the high pressure sales tactics. I have seen the obfuscation of fact and the out right lies.

I am not sure how they operate in other provinces, but around here they are out right crooks. More than once I have called them on mis-representing themselves as Union Energy employees. Both times they had said htey were with my gas provider. Both times they back pedaled...

I no longer have patience for ANYONE who comes to my door or calls me on the phone to sell me something I did not ask for.

The Police ones are BRUTAL..... "Will you support Police Officer Widows by purchasing blah blah blah" My usual response is to mention something about tasering and just hang up.


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## Zacman0126 (Apr 20, 2009)

keeperofthegood said:


> Welcome to the forum.
> 
> There is probably province by province differences in the companies and their approaches and how they are run. Here in Ontario it is becoming more commonly stated by police agencies to not even answer the door to the people that come knocking, let alone show or tell them anything. Here at least there has been too many cases of fraud on the contractors part, or home invasion or identity theft on the knockers part. So, for the members here in Ontario that are strongly recommending the "don't do a thing" approach, there is enough current issues and police messaging being given here that backs their approach.
> 
> ...


Back when I was working for them I know that alot of the bad rep the company got was weight carried over from the Eastern provinces, especially your area because well..."it's hard to find good help". That and you increase the overall populace in a given area, and that correlates to how many scumbags there is a possibility of existing out there.



shoretyus said:


> Living in the boonies helps limit some of the door to door stuff.
> 
> kkjwpw We do get the home reno on credit guys every once in awhile. The last one was funny...I asked him if he saw the sign on the lawn.... your trying to sell home renos to a contractor. These guys bug me because I have to go around and fix their work then I get to hear what they are charging for it.



Stay in the boonies...don't move to a major city. *facepalm*



Milkman said:


> The people who come to the door with these pitches are slimy and irritating as hell. The only door to door salesmen I want to see are kids selling chocolate bars.
> 
> 
> If I want anything else, I'll go looking. I try to be polite, but some of those F%$kers are pushy.
> ...


I find myself to be rather non-slippery, even when I was working for them I didn't notice any sort of lubricating substance on my skin. It's in they're "mandate" to be pushy, hence why the job wasn't for me; i'm not an asshole. Next time they come around, just tell them you're already signed up and shut the door. They might ask if you got all utilities, just say yep and that get's rid of them in a polite manner.



ashm70 said:


> Oakville resident here...
> 
> They come around my place quite a bit. I have been asked for my bill several times. I have experienced the high pressure sales tactics. I have seen the obfuscation of fact and the out right lies.
> 
> ...



If they come to your door and claim that they are your utility company, that is fraud, and a criminal offence of which they can be held accountable for and serve a jail term and/or a fine. They may however claim to be your provider/supplier which is a white lie. They are claiming to supply you with said commodity, however it is the job of the utilty company to transport this commodity to you, that is the difference. Like I said above, easiest way to get rid of anyone is a simple "I've already donated/signed up/given you my blood type/bought cookies".


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Zacman0126 said:


> I find myself to be rather non-slippery, even when I was working for them I didn't notice any sort of lubricating substance on my skin. It's in they're "mandate" to be pushy, hence why the job wasn't for me; i'm not an asshole. Next time they come around, just tell them you're already signed up and shut the door. They might ask if you got all utilities, just say yep and that get's rid of them in a polite manner.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


In a perfect world that would be true, however MOST of the individuals who have knocked on my door with these pitches have been VERY pushy and have not taken a polite no for an answer. I've actually had to close the door in their faces more than once. I don't like that and I don't like the "white lies" they try.


I always try the polite approach first. I assume they're just people trying to make a living. The same goes for folks pushing their religion door to door. Polite first, please go away second, get off my property third, is the sequence of approaches for me.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

The approach I dont like is the "you don't know what you are passing up" approach. They try to make it sounds like you dont know the devil in disguise (your current supplier) and that they are ripping you off etc. So this puts you right away in a situation where you feel dumb, which is most often not the case. In fact, when you investigate deeply you find that your just fine. They look at you as if you are insane to say "no thanks". Like you are making the worst mistake of your life or something.

I was in sales for years. The best way to sell is to give FACTS not maybe, if, or possibly. Give the buyer the entire story and let them decide based on the product for what it is. If it is a good value, they will purchase it. if you have to slip in white lies or try to confuse someone than the product cannot stand on it's own merit. This is not a good product. It's very simple in my mind.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> The approach I dont like is the "you don't know what you are passing up" approach. They try to make it sounds like you dont know the devil in disguise (your current supplier) and that they are ripping you off etc. So this puts you right away in a situation where you feel dumb, which is most often not the case. In fact, when you investigate deeply you find that your just fine. They look at you as if you are insane to say "no thanks". Like you are making the worst mistake of your life or something.
> 
> I was in sales for years. The best way to sell is to give FACTS not maybe, if, or possibly. Give the buyer the entire story and let them decide based on the product for what it is. If it is a good value, they will purchase it. if you have to slip in white lies or try to confuse someone than the product cannot stand on it's own merit. This is not a good product. It's very simple in my mind.


That kind of sales turns me off too.

Don't insult me if you want my money.

Don't even imply an insult.


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Had one of these guys knock on my door today. I was as polite as I could be and manage to get him to leave within 1 or 2 minutes. If he shows up 1 more time, I'm afraid I'm going to have to tell him to f*ck off.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Just had another one of these shmucks show up at our door...We get A LOT of them here..sometimes a couple in he same week.
I love the way they flash a cheap laminate "ID card" that a kid could make at Kinko's as if its some sort of sign of authority. I'm going to keep a tradeshow badge at the door and show it to them the next time they come.

Anyways, I politely told him I'm not signing anything as our house is for sale and we're moving in the next couple months...he persists with a spiel about how it can be built into the sale and be an advantage...lol...what a screw job. That sort of thing messes up real estate deals....besides, if the new owner wants one of these packages, its not likely it'll be hard for them to find one of these guys to sign up with 
Sometimes theres no other way but to say Thanks and close the door...they wont leave while they have your ear.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

It doesn't matter whether someone is selling you natural gas, cable, condo timeshares, credit cards, freezers full of meat, magazine subscriptions, or toilet paper; you have to ask yourself "What exactly is the modus operandi of the seller if the sales rep is a student or other non-expert in the product, the sales method is door-to-door or mass phoning, and the expectation is that one would commit to something on the spot that could amount to several thousand dollars over the commitment period?"

Clearly, the working assumption of the seller is that it's a numbers game. Keep pressing buttons and using up minimally-trained sales reps, and the eventual take will offset the effort and expenses, even if it's only 1 in 250.

In the legitimate mercantile world, products and sometimes prices sell themselves. If the product is demonstrably good, you'll commit; if the product is demonstrably cheap and commitments can be brief, then you may not care about quality quite so much. "Energy people" are trying to sell you a product which involves a substantial commitment in the absence of any reliable demonstration of its quality.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

mhammer said:


> ... "Energy people" are trying to sell you a product which involves a substantial commitment in the absence of any reliable demonstration of its quality.


Hey! I think I read that in a dictionary once. Under the words "snake oil".


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Excellent post. Once again, you've managed to encapsulate the issue in fewer words than I ever could. Door to door salesman, using hi-pressure sales techniques = something I dont really need.




mhammer said:


> It doesn't matter whether someone is selling you natural gas, cable, condo timeshares, credit cards, freezers full of meat, magazine subscriptions, or toilet paper; you have to ask yourself "What exactly is the modus operandi of the seller if the sales rep is a student or other non-expert in the product, the sales method is door-to-door or mass phoning, and the expectation is that one would commit to something on the spot that could amount to several thousand dollars over the commitment period?"
> 
> Clearly, the working assumption of the seller is that it's a numbers game. Keep pressing buttons and using up minimally-trained sales reps, and the eventual take will offset the effort and expenses, even if it's only 1 in 250.
> 
> In the legitimate mercantile world, products and sometimes prices sell themselves. If the product is demonstrably good, you'll commit; if the product is demonstrably cheap and commitments can be brief, then you may not care about quality quite so much. "Energy people" are trying to sell you a product which involves a substantial commitment in the absence of any reliable demonstration of its quality.


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