# Amp Prices



## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

I often find it off-putting that so many boutique amp builders seem disinclined to make their prices known. The recent posts on amp builders by GC, remended me of this. It's silly to have to send an e-mail to find out something that simple. Anyone else ?


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

The old adage, if you have to ask the price, you cannot afford it.


What I find incredible is that 50 year old circuit designs using 100 to 300 dollars in properly sourced parts, assembled, would sell for $650 and more. The one I have in mind at about $650 has about $100 dollars in parts in it, having worked out a guesstamit if I were to buy and build it from parts.


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## Jimi D (Oct 27, 2008)

keeperofthegood said:


> What I find incredible is that 50 year old circuit designs using 100 to 300 dollars in properly sourced parts, assembled, would sell for $650 and more. The one I have in mind at about $650 has about $100 dollars in parts in it, having worked out a guesstamit if I were to buy and build it from parts.


Depends where your labour pool is... Hand-wired means "lots of hours" and if the builder is in the US, and wants to eat, then it's going to cost us... but in the amp world, at least, you generally get what you pay for - the quality definitely tends to go up with the price, imho...


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Ahhh if the amp wasn't about 5 inches square and didn't have a pcb inside and etc etc. $650 is just out to lunch, that small boy should be $300 to $375 tops. By contrast, the Epiphone Valve Jr that sells here for 299 (when I was last at L&M that was the price) is to me a "low quality" amp, and it too is over priced for what it gives and would be more appropriately priced between $80 and $130. 

Many small boutiquers are out to lunch on pricing though, and that goes for any field of interest. At some point in time I think they subscribed to the Martha Stewart magazine and now are individually building a better tomorrow, 1000 dollar charge at a time. I am not one to buy into that. Gosh, remember when a Tye beanie baby could set you back 100's of dollars and now the exact same ones are $1.99 on the discard racks. I find the pricing is less about the product, and more about using the perception of being 'better'; letting companies bill outrageously, and the consumers to not (generally) complain.

As to quality, there is "quality" and there is "name brand" and a "quality" power transformer should be between $30 and $50, but in a "name brand" model that gives the exact same voltages, windings, performance, $150 to $250 typically. There is one make I came across selling their block of iron with copper wound around it at $350!! That is INCREDIBLY INSANE for 4 dollars of scrap metal. As I say, for that price they had better limo drive it to me and hand deliver it.


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## amphead (Jan 9, 2007)

Interesting discussion!

While the resistors, capacitors, switches, lamp, jacks, etc. are relatively inexpensive. Transformers - both power and output - start to add up. Then there is the circuit board, tubes, the metal chassis (this must be bent, punched, finished (aluminum anodizing) and silkscreened (or plexi covers must be made for front and back) plus the cabinet, corners, feet and handle.

Then it all has to be hand built with North American, specialized labor.

If a builder is selling their product using store front dealers they will likely - or at least should - have a third party electrical inspection performed so that the product will carry a CSA or equivalent sticker. That costs money too, believe me.

Then a profit margin must be added that will cover overhead costs (utilities, bank fees, marketing expenses, office stationary, phone chargers, internet charges, web site development, the cost of studio time for recording sound clips and videos, rent if the builder rents space, etc.) and leave the builder with a reasonable profit before taxes.

So, take the cost for electronic components (my guess is the $100 mentioned above did not include all of the parts mentioned above, but I could be wrong. What kind of amp was it for?) and add the rest of the costs and profit mentioned here and you rapidly get to the boutique prices you see in the marketplace.

There are ways to minimize costs depending on the builder's production model and how they manage overhead costs, but there is no question that building an amp in China significantly cuts ALL of the costs associated with building an amp.

So, there are MANY Chinese made amps around at low prices. A hand built amp made in North America will cost a lot more. There is no mystery when ALL costs are accounted for and a reasonable profit level is included. What you choose to buy depends on the level of tone and quality that you desire.

Hope this helps!

Don Mackrill
www.MackAmps.com


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

So where do production amps fall into this category? Some of those Fenders and Marshalls are damn expensive and there is very little in the way of hand made going on there anymore


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

amphead said:


> Interesting discussion!
> 
> While the resistors, capacitors, switches, lamp, jacks, etc. are relatively inexpensive. Transformers - both power and output - start to add up. Then there is the circuit board, tubes, the metal chassis (this must be bent, punched, finished (aluminum anodizing) and silkscreened (or plexi covers must be made for front and back) plus the cabinet, corners, feet and handle.
> 
> ...


Good post Don. Having built my own amp (a 20w Marshall clone) I know that the costs really do add up. By the time I paid for the parts, the shipping and brokerage fees etc, etc. it ended up being a fair bit more expensive than I anticipated. Then I put it a ton of hours actually building the thing. Would I sell it for what a resisue Marshall 20w goes for? Not a chance... I suspect I'd be loosing a couple of hundred in the process if I figured in my labour costs and boutique builders have to figure utilities, rent, etc. 

However, it was a TON of fun, I learned lots and the amp is killer sounding.

It's easy to be critical of boutique builders when you don't have a full understanding of what it really costs to build an amp.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

keeperofthegood said:


> What I find incredible is that 50 year old circuit designs using 100 to 300 dollars in properly sourced parts, assembled, would sell for $650 and more. The one I have in mind at about $650 has about $100 dollars in parts in it, having worked out a guesstamit if I were to buy and build it from parts.


So, figure $300 for the parts... how much for labour and overhead on the builder's part? Drilling chassis, getting them painted or powdercoated, silkscreened, wiring it up... then the guy actually has to make some profit, it's not like he's going to sell it for what it costs to build. Making an actual living building products on a small scale has got to be incredibly tough...


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

gtrguy said:


> So, figure $300 for the parts... how much for labour and overhead on the builder's part? Drilling chassis, getting them painted or powdercoated, silkscreened, wiring it up... then the guy actually has to make some profit, it's not like he's going to sell it for what it costs to build. Making an actual living building products on a small scale has got to be incredibly tough...



Oh I know I know, I have been spread sheeting the costs of amp builds for the last 6 months. All parts down to the screws and the glue.  part of the GC Amp Builders Coarse research. I've got a pretty good head on the costs, markups, and return on this. There ARE amps that ARE in the boutique world that ARE way past a reasonable markup for what is in those amps. There are also mainstream amps that are over priced because in the "main stream" you now have "name brand" parts. Good sounding amps yes, omg yes, but the sticker is simply overboard is what I am saying. And remember, Im not pointing at just small amp builders, but at a field of interest the "boutique" marketers. I find any product in this market to be disproportionately expensive for what they provide, be that amps, pedals, or dogie bisquets (one seller at one fair was selling his dog "cookie" at 5 dollars each. ... ... yea, for a 2 inch round cookie shaped dog cracker >.<)


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

$5 dog biscuits??!?!?! Holy crap.... forget amps, there's where the money is! What's this GC Amp Builders Course you mentioned? Got a link for me?


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

i would tend to agree...i've looked at building a clone...but for the price of the kit...you can find a good used amp, the actual amp, for almost the same price...

much like everything, everyone wants their piece of pie...american corporate greed has a lot of the blame, but...its spread to almost everywhere now...case in point...i drove by my local crappy tire and the had a sign up...timex watches reg 150 now 40...so...assuming 40 is what they paid for it...you are telling me that there is a huge mark-up like that on WATCHES???

its rediculous...and i'll be honest...i was looking at Orange amps...but i had a real hard time justifying 1500 bux for 30W amp, with few options...so i ended up buying a Traynor 50W...sounds damn good, with more options...for LESS than HAlf the Orange...some day i may have an Orange...but...all things compared...cost is a deciding factor for most of Middle Canada


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

gtrguy said:


> $5 dog biscuits??!?!?! Holy crap.... forget amps, there's where the money is! What's this GC Amp Builders Course you mentioned? Got a link for me?



Yup, it was a stunning thing. My wife and I laughed SO HARD that day. But his pricing was not out of line for what was happening in that fair, many things that would be normal to the point of banal were selling with badly misplaced decimal points. This after we paid the "adult" admission to the fair grounds of I think it was 6 or 8 dollars each.

Greco started the thread http://www.guitarscanada.com/amp-building/29453-tube-amp-building-workshop-s-any-interest.html there is a committee (myself and Saro worked on cost analysis for several Fender amps, most we felt we could do for about 1/3rd less than commercially equivalent kits and this without the benefit of being a company getting the corporate pricing), and we are balancing our options still. There is also the other company called Trinity Amps that is also working towards a course (it is also discussed in that thread). I think we have "similar" objectives, with "different" focuses. Where this is at this time is mostly in a "waiting" state. We are pretty confident on what we can or cannot do. Some obstacles have happened, such as venue. Amazing how fast Universities tuck tail when you say "yea, we are using 700 volt transformers" lol.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

GuitarsCanada said:


> So where do production amps fall into this category? Some of those Fenders and Marshalls are damn expensive and there is very little in the way of hand made going on there anymore


I think a lot of the time for the money your better off buying a new tube amp from a smaller builder. They tend to be more considerate of tube and speaker quality, that has to be factored into the deal too. My OP was really more about how difficult it is to get a price for a lot of the smaller brands. I find myself going to websites of specialty music shops to find the price for an amp I was looking at on the maker's site. Oh well, worse things have happened

Shawn.


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## dtsaudio (Apr 15, 2009)

> There ARE amps that ARE in the boutique world that ARE way past a reasonable markup for what is in those amps. There are also mainstream amps that are over priced because in the "main stream" you now have "name brand" parts. Good sounding amps yes, omg yes, but the sticker is simply overboard



Without trying to sound condescending, can you give some examples. You've mentioned costs of parts, but what type, size of amp are you building. Head or combo?


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## amphead (Jan 9, 2007)

I forgot some things:

1. *Incoming shipping costs*. Thanks for reminding me!

2. *Recovery of product development costs*. This includes the hours of caffeine fuelled work to create schematics, board layouts and chassis drawings. Then you have to buy the parts for prototypes and build and test them. Of course, prototypes NEVER blow up and have to be rebuilt (heh, on what planet is that?!). Then there is tweaking and tweaking and tweaking time, etc. Then product photos and marketing material and on and on. All of those costs have to be recovered out of the profit on the amps.

3. *Dealer markup*. This is worth a whole thread in itself. The music instrument biz traditionally operates on a dealer basis. That means that the price for an amp includes the profit for the builder AND the profit for the dealer. Since the builder can't undercut their dealers when they sell direct (if they do) the web site direct builder price has the dealer profit built in. If the builder sells overseas then there is likely a distributor in the mix too, so the consumer price includes ANOTHER layer of profit. Most amp builders are 'forced' to build their businesses on this traditional model because of the belief that guitarists won't buy amps without playing them (that's a whole other topic too and we'll see whether that 'myth' can't be busted during 2010 - stay tuned!).

4. *Esoteric components*. Lots of boutique builders use expensive components. Sozo caps, Heyboer transformers, etc. They *really* do add to the cost of an amp. I happen to believe that the added expense of those components don't justify their incremental improvement in tone quality (I think circuit design is the biggest factor in tone quality), but many boutique builders work on a concept of the absolute best of everything regardless of the cost - and that's totally cool if that's your thing.

Regarding 'big name' company pricing, their overheads are bigger than a small builder (somebody has to pay for gigantic NAAM booths and all the artist smoozing!) and they will almost certainly use both distributors _and _dealers. However, countering those increased costs are economies of scale on the production side and their product is likely built in a low-cost labor country.

But still, why does a Marshall Plexi reissue cost what it does? Because of 'brand value'. Using my company, Mack Amps, as a comparison, relatively speaking NO ONE knows about Mack and EVERY electric guitarist on the planet knows about Marshall. And, LOTS of ICONIC ROCK STARS use Marshall amps and NONE use Macks.

What does that mean to the price?

Well, if you happen to have an iconic brand your profit margin can be bigger. That's a beautiful thing for the manufacturer because lots of consumers will pay the price to own an icon. So, a Marshall Plexi reissue costs what it does because people will pay whatever Marshall asks (within at least some sense of reason).

Hope this helps!

Don Mackrill
Budget Boutique | Tube Guitar Amps | Mack Amps


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Good points, Mr. Mackrill - here and on the previous page.


Personally, I don't mind the "overpricing" of boutiquie amps as much as what I see in boutiquie pedals. The amount of hand work required to build an amp (enclosure, chassis, wiring, testing, etc) versus a pedal is not comparison. And yet some boutiquie pedals sell for as much as these amps. A 'hand-wired' Ibanez Tube-screamer for $400??? Give me a break.

I bought a very good, brand-name upconverting DVD player 3 years ago for $100. The HDMI cable I needed was $60. That also offended me, when considering the amount of R&D in the player versus the cable! 

But it all really is about supply and demand. And in this equation, the internet is the tool of the devil, I think.


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## Jimi D (Oct 27, 2008)

High/Deaf said:


> I bought a very good, brand-name upconverting DVD player 3 years ago for $100. The HDMI cable I needed was $60. That also offended me, when considering the amount of R&D in the player versus the cable!


Here's a little info about your $60 HDMI cable...

My son works for a major Big Box electronics store... They sell Rocketfish and Monster HDMI cables, among others... As an employee, he pays cost plus 10% for the things he purchases there. A $69 Rocketfish HDMI cable cost him $7.70 + tax. A $99 Monster HDMI cable cost him < $20.00 plus tax. HDMI cable markup is criminal. Bits are bits. Your cable either works or it doesn't. But they promote cables as having greater colour "vibancy" and more "accurate" sound (nonsense) - and look at the cables they push for the new 3D TVs! It's all voodoo bullshit. They're just wire's passing DIGITAL data, and that data is what it is.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Rugburn said:


> I often find it off-putting that so many boutique amp builders seem disinclined to make their prices known. The recent posts on amp builders by GC, remended me of this. It's silly to have to send an e-mail to find out something that simple. Anyone else ?


This is what I like about the DR Z site. He posts all his prices in his website. And I find Dr Z one of the more reasonable of the boutique amp makers.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> This is what I like about the DR Z site. He posts all his prices in his website. And I find Dr Z one of the more reasonable of the boutique amp makers.


Hadn't been to his site in quite some time. This was kind of cool:

[video=youtube;VQOsN-mpDgQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQOsN-mpDgQ&feature=player_embedded[/video]

Shawn


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## Yama (Oct 2, 2009)

> My son works for a major Big Box electronics store... They sell Rocketfish and Monster HDMI cables, among others... As an employee, he pays cost plus 10% for the things he purchases there. A $69 Rocketfish HDMI cable cost him $7.70 + tax. A $99 Monster HDMI cable cost him < $20.00 plus tax.


Perhaps this had been posted and discussed before. CBC tested and found out there's no difference in video quality between a $250 HDMI cable and a $12 one. Probably same applies to guitar/speaker cables to a certain extent.

Some might claim that thicker wires in amps/guitars make great tones while skinny wires and PCB boards are tone sucking. I agree with Don's view on this article. Handwired amps are much easier to service but tone wise, they should sound the SAME as PCB amps with copper circuit pathways measured in nanometers. That said, handwired boutique amps should last longer and are justified to charge "reasonably more" (only REASONABLY) because of the extra man hours putting into the build. That's my take on this price issue.

from the article:


> *Hand wired vs. printed circuit boards*. There is much lively debate concerning the authenticity of boutique amps that use printed circuit boards (PCBs). Is this an oxymoron? Many guitarists think so. The hand wired camp believe that only an amp whose every component and wire has been hand soldered can be considered boutique. However, there are many amp companies that are generally considered to be boutique, such as Soldano, Rivera, Fuchs and THD to name a few (Mack uses a PCB in the Gem) that use PCBs. Note that while these amps use PCBs, they are hand assembled and, in at least the case of the Gem, are hand wired to the chassis mounted components.
> 
> *Does an amp have to be hand wired to be considered boutique? Not in my opinion. The manner in which components are attached and soldered to a circuit board simply does not affect tone. A poorly laid out eyelet board will sound just as bad as a poorly designed PCB. A well designed PCB amp will sound indistinguishable from a hand wired example. *
> 
> Reliability is often cited as a problem with PCB amps. While a poorly designed, mass produced amp is a recipe for problems, a well designed PCB amp will be at least as reliable as a hand wired amp. *After all, PCBs are used in spacecraft and military electronics - two of the most inhospitable environments on or around the planet - and, since in both of those applications cost is insignificant compared to reliability, hand wired electronics would be the norm if PCBs were unreliable.*


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2010)

ezcomes said:


> i would tend to agree...i've looked at building a clone...but for the price of the kit...you can find a good used amp, the actual amp, for almost the same price...
> 
> much like everything, everyone wants their piece of pie...american corporate greed has a lot of the blame, but...its spread to almost everywhere now...case in point...i drove by my local crappy tire and the had a sign up...timex watches reg 150 now 40...so...assuming 40 is what they paid for it...you are telling me that there is a huge mark-up like that on WATCHES???
> 
> its rediculous...and i'll be honest...i was looking at Orange amps...but i had a real hard time justifying 1500 bux for 30W amp, with few options...so i ended up buying a Traynor 50W...sounds damn good, with more options...for LESS than HAlf the Orange...some day i may have an Orange...but...all things compared...cost is a deciding factor for most of Middle Canada


This post and thread reminds me of some stuff I've been reading recently. I'll start with the ancedote:

When Martha Stewart was starting out she was selling pies on the weekend at the local farmer's market. $7/pie, just like every one else. Didn't matter that her pies were the most delicious, she wasn't selling many. Then she had an idea: she changed her marketing press to focus on the local produce used, the "artisan" crust, the "hand made" aspect of her pies. Same as every other pie at the market, she just spun it a little better.

And she raised the prices of the pies. A lot. To $25/pie.

And she couldn't make them fast enough. They flew off the stand. People were willing to pay more for what the perceived was something unique and different. Something crafted with care and love by the master's hand. They were the same pies she'd been making all along, the same pies as everyone else at the market. But now they were more special than everyone else's because they were expensive.

Moral: value is often intrinsically linked to the cost of an item. And even the most rational of us has a hard time seperating the two things. We're almost hard-wired for it.

So the second interesting thing is that we're hardwired to see relative value. Seeing absolute value is really hard. Largely because it's really hard, in real life, to compare two things. Everything is complex, with lots of variables. So we simplify and we do relative comparisons. Take the Orange and the Traynor amps you mentioned. The Traynor looks like a real deal with it's put up against the Orange: lots more features, half the price, sounds good too. Who's to say that the markup on the Orange was more or less than the Traynor? That's a hard assessment to make. But I will say: it's a lot easier to sell you that Traynor after you've played the Orange. Because, relatively speaking, it just looks like a better deal.

The first example came from Martha Inc. - great read even if you aren't "into" the whole Martha Stewart thing. She's a savvy entrepreneur for sure. And the second interesting thing came from Predictably Irrational by Dan Airely. A fantastic read on the ins and outs of why sane people make insane choices some times.

So yea, who's to say if the Orange was a deal or not. All I can say is: kudos to the salesman who showed you the Orange before the Traynor.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2010)

Yama said:


> That said, handwired boutique amps should last longer and are justified to charge "reasonably more" (only REASONABLY) because of the extra man hours putting into the build. That's my take on this price issue.


Sorry, do you have a source for this? Last longer? Based on what data is this claim being made?


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

iaresee said:


> Sorry, do you have a source for this? Last longer? Based on what data is this claim being made?


Well, if they're only used by Dentists every second weekend, or so..... they should last a good long time.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2010)

ronmac said:


> Well, if they're only used by Dentists every second weekend, or so..... they should last a good long time.


 Plenty of PBC-based amps take daily beatings and come back for more. My PCB-based Boogies were all built like tanks and could withstand as much abuse as any other amp, handwired, thigh wired or otherwise. The most delicate components: the tubes and the bits that stick off the chassis like the potentiometers, are common to any design.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

I've seen both beat-up vintage tube amps and beat-up vintage/older SS state amps. Of the two camps, the tube amps were usually a retube and likely a re-cap away from being giggable and saleable. The SS amps often had problems that required more involved repairs because of their cheap PCB construction. These were generally of the mass-produced variety. I've seen some very nice amps that use higfh quality boards and components that inspire a lot more confidence. Perhaps this is where much of the PCB stigma hails from. I also have strong opinions about cheapo tube amps that have the tube sockets and pots mounted to uber cheap boards. While some folks may be happy with the sound of these amps, I don't think they're built to last.

Shawn.


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## Guest (Mar 29, 2010)

Rugburn said:


> I've seen both beat-up vintage tube amps and beat-up vintage/older SS state amps. Of the two camps, the tube amps were usually a retube and likely a re-cap away from being giggable and saleable. The SS amps often had problems that required more involved repairs because of their cheap PCB construction. These were generally of the mass-produced variety. I've seen some very nice amps that use higfh quality boards and components that inspire a lot more confidence. Perhaps this is where much of the PCB stigma hails from. I also have strong opinions about cheapo tube amps that have the tube sockets and pots mounted to uber cheap boards. While some folks may be happy with the sound of these amps, I don't think they're built to last.
> 
> Shawn.


The decision to go cheap in the construction is independent of the decision to use p2p, turret or PCB wiring methods. One does not beget the other. See: Koch, Fuchs, Mesa Boogie, Bogner -- all examples of well built, rock solid PCB-based amplifiers that will out last you or I if cared for as you would any other amplifier.

PCBs are used in far more serious, more critical, more environmentally intensive applications than little wee old amplifiers. No one is handwiring ballistic missiles.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

The only part of PCB that is of interest is the socket.

http://www.pmillett.com/tubebooks/Books/intro_Tomer_1960_Getting_the_Most_Out_of_Vacuum_Tubes.pdf

Chapter 1 is a good read. Tubes get hot, glass gets hot, glass expands, the pins get hot, the pins expand, angles between pins and glass change during operation. PCB mounted pins are solidified and so do not move, leading to earlier failure of the tubes.

Though it has been mentioned in other threads here on GC that 40 years ago a tube was built to last 1500 to 2500 hours and modern tubes tend to bite it after 500 hours.....


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## Yama (Oct 2, 2009)

> Sorry, do you have a source for this? Last longer? Based on what data is this claim being made?


Oh my apology on wording it. I meant handwired amps would enjoy a longer lifespan since it'd be more cost-effective for consumers to repair them.
Based on the article: PCB amp has equal reliability (if not more) as a handwired amp. That's given.

Logic: If any of them do break by any chance and let's say the repair needed is changing a capicitor. For the pcb you need to do soldering on a microscopic level, let alone doing it on a fabrication that's designed only for computerized manufacturing -> more time and $$$ needed.
In contrast, it'd just be a direct soldering job for a handwired amp since most components were designed to be assembled by hand. -> cheaper and consumers have more incentive to repair them and therefore they tend to stay in working condition longer

The bottom line is: Even they're both equally reliable (based on the article), there's still a slight chance for it to break. Would you pay a premium for a handwired Boutique amp that is cheaper to service down the road?

So, what do you do with your working PCB amps now, get rid of them as soon as you can! kkjuw
J/K I'd really like to see some stats to compare their average lifespan. Any folks here know of any good PCB tube amps from the 60s/70s still working well with low repair bills over these years?

Sorry don't mean to steer away from the topic if this has become a discussion between Handwired and Pcb amp


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## Yama (Oct 2, 2009)

iaresee said:


> Plenty of PBC-based amps take daily beatings and come back for more. My PCB-based Boogies were all built like tanks and could withstand as much abuse as any other amp, handwired, thigh wired or otherwise. The most delicate components: the tubes and the bits that stick off the chassis like the potentiometers, are common to any design.


Good to know! The idea of "buidling to last" is the key


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

iaresee said:


> The decision to go cheap in the construction is independent of the decision to use p2p, turret or PCB wiring methods.


Yes, I said that.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2010)

Rugburn said:


> Yes, I said that.


 Sorry, when you said "Perhaps..." I thought it was meant to be a question.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2010)

Yama said:


> Oh my apology on wording it. I meant handwired amps would enjoy a longer lifespan since it'd be more cost-effective for consumers to repair them.
> Based on the article: PCB amp has equal reliability (if not more) as a handwired amp. That's given.


Certainly it can be less daunting to enter a well laid out amp that doesn't use PCBs. But I've seen some messes that are absolute service nightmares. There's no rule here. I'm trying to find the gut shot of the Bad Cat Lil '15 that Guitar Player ran -- it was a mess. I wouldn't want to touch that. Versus something like this:










That's going to be easy to service. And you don't have to worry (much) about wires breaking. It's all component replacement and maintenance you're doing in a PCB design.



> Logic: If any of them do break by any chance and let's say the repair needed is changing a capicitor. For the pcb you need to do soldering on a microscopic level, let alone doing it on a fabrication that's designed only for computerized manufacturing -> more time and $$$ needed.


Unfortunately that's not logical at all. The components are the same size. They have to be that big to handle the power requirements. SMD parts might (and this is very big might) show up in the tone stack, but they'd be in spots where failure is so far out of the norm as to be a non-issue when it comes to replacement. All the parts that fail are the same size. They're all through-hole soldered. It's even easier that turret or P2P soldering to remove and replace the parts.

This is, of course, assuming we're talking about the same level of build here. A Bogner to a Bruno kind of thing. That we're not comparing a little Vox ADV modeling amplifier to a Fender Deluxe Reverb reissue.

All of these designs have repair and servicing in mind when they're built. Bogner, Boogie, Fuchs -- they couldn't sell amps if you couldn't get them serviced. If you want to find out how painless it is to replace parts in a well designed PCB amp search here for a thread on a Koch repair that Michelle did. IIRC it was even a solderless fix. Good design is good design and good design takes into account servicing, in a shop and in the field.



> The bottom line is: Even they're both equally reliable (based on the article), there's still a slight chance for it to break. Would you pay a premium for a handwired Boutique amp that is cheaper to service down the road?


I don't think it'd be any more or less expensive to service them.

Here's a story for you: mid-90's I was looking to change out from using Marshalls as the two I owned were always in and out of the shop. Nothing but problems with them. I was using John Fletcher in Toronto at the time (bunch of guys here know him and use him, great tech). Anyway, I was asking him about his repair rates on Boogies because I was considering a Boogie from their Rectifier line up and he said: can't really say. They just don't break enough for me to see them in here.

I switched to Boogies and sure enough, I didn't get to see John quite so often.



> J/K I'd really like to see some stats to compare their average lifespan. Any folks here know of any good PCB tube amps from the 60s/70s still working well with low repair bills over these years?


I doubt you'll get much more than anecdotes like the one above. Why would anyone keep stats?


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## dtsaudio (Apr 15, 2009)

One thing to keep in mind is the quality of the materials used today. PCB's from the 60's and even 70's were a very poor material. Copper traces weren't always masked, and assembly techniques weren't always as good. Compare today's boards - glass epoxy, solder masked, thicker copper traces. I've seen good and bad from all types of assemblies.
I'm more concerned with manufacturers trying to cram too many features and gimmicks into amps because PCB assembly is more cost effective, and you can generally cram more stuff into an amp without all the wiring getting in the way. That to me is where the unreliability comes in. The more things you add, the more things go wrong.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

iaresee said:


> And she raised the prices of the pies. A lot. To $25/pie.
> 
> 
> Moral: value is often intrinsically linked to the cost of an item. And even the most rational of us has a hard time seperating the two things. We're almost hard-wired for it.
> ...


'
i love pie...but $25 for a pie? if there was nothing else to buy, then maybe...but nope

i did a lot of looking for an Amp...i played the Orange and fell in love...the problem...about $1500 i didn't have...and any time that i did have a little money, life stepped in and necessitated that in order for me to keep going, i had to buy something...so the Orange kept going on stand-by...then i came across the Traynor...it belonged to a friend of a friend...he had decided it wasn't his bag, he wanted something more vintage...i gave it a try, i really like the way it sounded and the possibilities...so i paid a smaller amount for the amp...the amp sounds just as good...i still want to own an Orange at some point...but i look at it this way...i have a nice amp, that sounds just as great as the Orange, with money left over...

it was never a matter of Orange over Traynor...its what gets the job done, what sounds good, and what i like...hell, i'd love a Diamond and Soldano too...but....if its a bit of a wait for an Orange...they are WAY in the distance...

my gripe is just that some things seem way over priced...and i realize that amps, just like cars, bring something a little different to the plate...but the Name seems to drive the prices way way high...and i understand the whole hand-wired thing...but tell me how a pcb board put together by a computer and machine and built into an amp can cost 2500 bux?? when you can have others, the exact same construction for under a grand? thats all i'm getting at...i know the satisfaction is there building a kit, and handwired is easier to work on...but like i said before...by the time you order the kit, most of the sites offer it pre-built for 100 bux more or so...so why not?

the overall gripe is just how everyone wants their money...and need to gouge to get it...


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

iaresee said:


> All of these designs have repair and servicing in mind when they're built. Bogner, Boogie, Fuchs -- they couldn't sell amps if you couldn't get them serviced. If you want to find out how painless it is to replace parts in a well designed PCB amp search here for a thread on a Koch repair that Michelle did. IIRC it was even a solderless fix. Good design is good design and good design takes into account servicing, in a shop and in the field.
> 
> 
> I don't think it'd be any more or less expensive to service them.
> ...


Well, I fix amps for a living and when you mentioned Boogie...I just can't agree with you!

Modern pcb amps from the major manufacturers are RARELY designed to be easily serviced! They are designed to be more cheaply assembled by automation, as much as possible. Boutique amps are easier 'cuz they are usually hand assembled, even if they use a pcb.

Boogers have some nasty design habits for a serviceman. The pcb is usually jammed solid with parts. Smaller pcbs and assemblies can be mounted over top of others, so that you can't get at the points you may want to measure without removing those boards. Of course, then the amp no longer works so there's nothing to measure!

My favourite beef is how they will stack a bunch of solid state relays. These look like big thick "chicklets" with wires out of each end. They will stack them with epoxy glue like a pile of quarters and then glue the stack to the pcb. Guess which relay will fail? That's right! The one on the bottom! There is no way in hell you are going to get it off the board and out of the stack without breaking things badly! You have to finagle some tiny cutters into the spiders nest of wires, cut out the failed relay and slap a new one on the side, ugly style!

If Boogers are so easy to work on then why do many American shops either double their labour rate for Boogies or just refuse to work on them at all, as not worth the cost of the blood pressure pills?

"Couldn't sell amps if they couldn't get them serviced"? I've got news for you. The big guys couldn't care less! They only care about service if the amp is within warranty. Your statement would be accurate if you changed it to read "Couldn't sell amps without a guarantee"!

As with everything else, the "suits" run everything. The boys with MBAs have their "better ideas". They know that with good production quality control failures during warranty are usually few, barring a design flaw popping up. If a pcb proves to be too much of a PITA to repair they will just rip it out and change the entire board! To them in the overall scheme of things it's still much cheaper than making the changes necessary to have an easily serviced design.

Once the warranty is over they no longer want to know you! As far as they are concerned, you can buy another amp!

Here's an official policy from the big "F" which illustrates the "suit" philosophies perfectly. I was told this by a friend in the States who has a factory authorized service shop. He had a new amp come in for warranty repair. It was a 2-12 combo, solid state, with lots of knobs and an EQ in the preamp and a hefty power amp. The problem was a common one. Those sliders on the EQ often get broken. The usual procedure was for him to call up the factory, they would "scrounge" a new slider pot from production inventory (slider pots are NEVER a standard catalogue item you can buy from an electronics store! They are ALWAYS custom in shape or fit! This means you have to get one from the factory, just like a custom shaped part for your automobile), charge him maybe $15 bucks and with an hour's labour the customer's amp is back in business!

When he called the factory they had some bad news. The system had been changed. There no longer was any production inventory in the USA. Everything had been moved to China! What's more, the Chinese would NOT send just one slider for repair. They would only send the complete preamp pcb, which was over half of the guts of the amp! His cost on the preamp assembly was $350 and the amp retailed for $600!

So the big "F" now has a new policy. They have more and more of their amps on a list entitled "Do not REPAIR! Replacement ONLY!"

If you have a problem during warranty when you take your amp in to the store you will be told "You know, the big "F" is such a wonderful company that they are just going to give you a new amp!"

The customer is of course, happy as a clam but it doesn't end there. The factory does this 'cuz in the big picture it's cheaper for them as a way to still provide a warranty. However, once the warranty expires you still can't buy just one slider to get your amp repaired. The plain and simply truth is, you CAN'T get that slider repaired!

You're on your own. So long, it's been good to know ya! Come back and buy another amp!

The big "F" has become the big "BIC"!

This trend among some of the bigger manufacturers is part of the reason for the explosion in the number of "boutique" products these past few years. There are always a lot of buyers who don't mind paying more up front to get savings later on. Boutique amps are almost always hand-wired, making them much easier to service. The time involved compared to fixing that Booger is MUCH less! I can do in an hour what can take me 3-4 with a Booger.

Moreover, modern amps with highly crammed pcbs are all but impossible to do any but the simplest mods. There are no wires you can change, just traces "etched in stone" on the board. Meanwhile, I can take an old hand-wired Traynor and drop in a Dumble Overdrive easy as pie!

As for overall quality, I agree that a GOOD pcb design will be equally reliable. However, not all pcb designs are as good as others. Reliability no longer applies once a fault develops, of course. Then we find out how easily it is to fix it!

If you're the type of player that buys an amp, never wants any major mods, and will toss it away if it ever breaks then you have one set of needs. If you're the kind that likes to have it tweaked to suit your own likes and dislikes and expects to always be able to have it repaired then you have others.

Both types of amps can be equally reliable. Like with many other things, it's when you're in trouble you find out who still loves you!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I found this to be true about Mesa boogies when I owned my last boogie. I had a lonestar special. I talked to a couple of amp techs that said they wouldn't even touch them if something went wrong.


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2010)

Ahh Bill! I wondered if you'd wander in here...I love your over-the-top discourse man. Livens everything up.

I don't even know where to being with this discussion. You jump around a lot. So forgive me, I'm going to cherry pick and answer the stuff I want to talk about.  You talk about things I never mentioned.



Wild Bill said:


> Well, I fix amps for a living and when you mentioned Boogie...I just can't agree with you!


And I...well...lets say I'm not ignorant of the design process when it comes to engineering and shipping electronics. But you know that.



> Modern pcb amps from the major manufacturers are RARELY designed to be easily serviced! They are designed to be more cheaply assembled by automation, as much as possible. Boutique amps are easier 'cuz they are usually hand assembled, even if they use a pcb.


Lets make a very clear distinction here: we're talking about expensive PCB based amplifiers. Not your $199 Blackheart. Big difference. The Blackheart answered the following design challenge, "Build me a tube amp I can sell for less than $250". That's not the same challenge a Mesa Mark IV intends to answer. Big, big, big difference.



> Boogers have some nasty design habits for a serviceman. The pcb is usually jammed solid with parts. Smaller pcbs and assemblies can be mounted over top of others, so that you can't get at the points you may want to measure without removing those boards. Of course, then the amp no longer works so there's nothing to measure!


That's not, however, a mark of an _unserviceable_ amplifier. It's just a more challenging service call. You could say, one that Boogie intended an authorized repair depot to handle and not just any amp tech you wander across (present company excluded of course).

Boogies, in particular the Mark series, cram an insane amount of user interface into their designs. Lots of choices means lots of routing inside, means densely packed amplifiers. IIRC the Mark IV held the top spot for the most number of knobs, dial and switches on an amp with a full tricked out one wheighing in at something like 100+ on the amp. That's a nutty amount of circuitry to jam into an amp chasis and, as you pointed out, it makes them dense, tough to navigate and you get some interesting (I frankly think the stacked relay was a brilliant solution to the space problem, not unlike stacking opamps in an uber-tubescreamer build ala Dano at Beavis Audio) design choices.

But they're not unserviceable. They're just more challenging to service.

And this is recognized in the design process for the amplifier. They hard, but not impossible. And as a testament to the fact that they are serviceable is that there are MANY Boogies still in service well past their 5 year warranty period. You buy an amp with that kind of tweakability crammed in to it, you have to recognize it's going to cost a little more if something goes wrong.

Now, compare and contrast a Mark series Boogie to say a Blue Angel or a DC-series Boogie. Your back to the realm of a simple, modern channel switcher with those models. So really, Boogie has one tough-to-service line of amps in a product catalog that has a whole lot more to it than just the Mark series.

So, my question to you is, just how many out-of-warranty Boogies to do see? How many do you turn away? What about the others mentioned that use PCBs? More, less or about the same as the non-PCB amps?



> My favourite beef is how they will stack a bunch of solid state relays. These look like big thick "chicklets" with wires out of each end. They will stack them with epoxy glue like a pile of quarters and then glue the stack to the pcb. Guess which relay will fail? That's right! The one on the bottom! There is no way in hell you are going to get it off the board and out of the stack without breaking things badly! You have to finagle some tiny cutters into the spiders nest of wires, cut out the failed relay and slap a new one on the side, ugly style!


Well, I think that's pretty ingenious. If you're out of land: build up! Sucks it makes it harder to service, but you figured it out ergo it wasn't impossible to service.



> If Boogers are so easy to work on then why do many American shops either double their labour rate for Boogies or just refuse to work on them at all, as not worth the cost of the blood pressure pills?


Can't comment on that since, well, it's pure conjecture. I've never been charged more for a Boogie on a bench than a Marshall.



> "Couldn't sell amps if they couldn't get them serviced"? I've got news for you. The big guys couldn't care less! They only care about service if the amp is within warranty. Your statement would be accurate if you changed it to read "Couldn't sell amps without a guarantee"!


Untrue. No business would survive selling > $1500 amps that were intended to be thrown away when they break. Remember, we're talking about the *good* PCB designs here. It would not take long for word to spread and kill sales. If there was an iota of truth to this any Boogie out of warranty would be dirt cheap and that, we know, is definitely not the case.



> Once the warranty is over they no longer want to know you! As far as they are concerned, you can buy another amp!


Again, not true. I can only talk about my experiences with Koch and Boogie but both companies gave me absolutely fantastic customer service on ampfliers that were not just out-of-warranty but weren't even registered to me because I bought them second hand. We're not talking about Fender G-DECs here. 



> Here's an official policy from the big "F" which illustrates the "suit" philosophies perfectly. I was told this by a friend in the States who has a factory authorized service shop. He had a new amp come in for warranty repair. It was a 2-12 combo, solid state, with lots of knobs and an EQ in the preamp and a hefty power amp. The problem was a common one. Those sliders on the EQ often get broken. The usual procedure was for him to call up the factory, they would "scrounge" a new slider pot from production inventory (slider pots are NEVER a standard catalogue item you can buy from an electronics store! They are ALWAYS custom in shape or fit! This means you have to get one from the factory, just like a custom shaped part for your automobile), charge him maybe $15 bucks and with an hour's labour the customer's amp is back in business!
> 
> When he called the factory they had some bad news. The system had been changed. There no longer was any production inventory in the USA. Everything had been moved to China! What's more, the Chinese would NOT send just one slider for repair. They would only send the complete preamp pcb, which was over half of the guts of the amp! His cost on the preamp assembly was $350 and the amp retailed for $600!
> 
> So the big "F" now has a new policy. They have more and more of their amps on a list entitled "Do not REPAIR! Replacement ONLY!"


Well...what Fender does it not what everyone else does. I didn't mention the big F in my list. The really big guys like Fender, even Marshall, are operating at a whole other level of business than the smaller players I mentioned.



> This trend among some of the bigger manufacturers is part of the reason for the explosion in the number of "boutique" products these past few years. There are always a lot of buyers who don't mind paying more up front to get savings later on. Boutique amps are almost always hand-wired, making them much easier to service. The time involved compared to fixing that Booger is MUCH less! I can do in an hour what can take me 3-4 with a Booger.


Right, but you can't do what that Mark IV does without using a PCB. So if you want the Mark IV's features you've got to swallow it's complexity and potentially higher repair costs.



> Moreover, modern amps with highly crammed pcbs are all but impossible to do any but the simplest mods. There are no wires you can change, just traces "etched in stone" on the board. Meanwhile, I can take an old hand-wired Traynor and drop in a Dumble Overdrive easy as pie!


Again, doesn't make them better or worse. Just different. If you want to mod your amp, don't buy one that uses a PCB-based design. Duh. If you don't care and just want to use the amp you're buying, don't sweat it. I think you're down to an incredibly small fraction of the guitar playing population that's going to care about whether an amp is mod-able or not.



> As for overall quality, I agree that a GOOD pcb design will be equally reliable. However, not all pcb designs are as good as others. Reliability no longer applies once a fault develops, of course. Then we find out how easily it is to fix it!


Cool. 



> If you're the type of player that buys an amp, never wants any major mods, and will toss it away if it ever breaks then you have one set of needs. If you're the kind that likes to have it tweaked to suit your own likes and dislikes and expects to always be able to have it repaired then you have others.


I disagree with the "toss it away if it ever breaks" -- see above. That's patently untrue of a PCB based amplifier. May be you don't like to work on them, but there are authorized Boogie repair depots that'll happily fix 'em for you. And I'll hazard a guess that 99.999% of all amplifier buyers pay someone else to service and don't do any tweaking...



> Both types of amps can be equally reliable. Like with many other things, it's when you're in trouble you find out who still loves you!


 C'mon! You don't love the challenge and the extra pay? 

I thought I'd mention as well that all of the manufacturers I mentioned, the big boutiquers doing PCB design, hand populate and hand solder their boards. Wave solderers are expensive and don't work well with really big components that are heavy anyways. Here's a neat video. Check from 5:34 on...

[youtube]XuIDC7nJuK4[/youtube]


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2010)

Argh. I hit the 10000 word limit. 

So Bill, it sounds like you don't like working on PCB based amps (or at least Boogies), but you don't disagree that the PCB doesn't make it any more or less amazing than a non-PCB (when we're talking high quality amplifiers). We're only in disagreement about whether or not servicing is a consideration (and I gave up some proof as to why it is, why the amps are serviceable outside of the warranty period, by pointing to their resale prices after warranties end) on the higher end amps.

Did I get all that?

I don't even want to talk about F.


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## holyman (Dec 22, 2009)

keeperofthegood said:


> Oh I know I know, I have been spread sheeting the costs of amp builds for the last 6 months. All parts down to the screws and the glue.  part of the GC Amp Builders Coarse research. I've got a pretty good head on the costs, markups, and return on this. There ARE amps that ARE in the boutique world that ARE way past a reasonable markup for what is in those amps. There are also mainstream amps that are over priced because in the "main stream" you now have "name brand" parts. Good sounding amps yes, omg yes, but the sticker is simply overboard is what I am saying. And remember, Im not pointing at just small amp builders, but at a field of interest the "boutique" marketers. I find any product in this market to be disproportionately expensive for what they provide, be that amps, pedals, or dogie bisquets (one seller at one fair was selling his dog "cookie" at 5 dollars each. ... ... yea, for a 2 inch round cookie shaped dog cracker >.<)


When you buy an amplifier (or anything for that matter) you are not just buying a collection of parts, you are also buying the knowledge and expertise that went into making and designing the amp. If it was a simple matter of assembling $100 worth of parts and selling it for $1000 then everybody (including you) would be doing it and getting rich. 

That being said, I do agree that many things are overpriced and that poeple pay a lot for silly things (like 5 dollar doggie buscuits, although a dog may disagree with us on that point).


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## Hammertone (Feb 3, 2006)

Yama said:


> ...[ ]...Any folks here know of any good PCB tube amps from the 60s/70s still working well with low repair bills over these years?


Any Unimusic Ampeg from '68 on - Reverb-o-Jet, GU-12, G-12, G-20, GV-15, GV-22, B-15, B-25, J-42X, etc. All dead easy to repair. Gigantic traces, simple layouts, very robust.


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