# Five sad truths



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

_Guitar Player _included a sidebar in this month's issue, listing "5 Musical truths guaranteed to make you sad":

1) Ke$ha's "Tik-Tok" has outsold any single by Nirvana
2) Rihanna has ten #1 singles. That's ten more than Led Zeppelin.
3) No Elvis song is more popular that The Black-Eyed Peas' "I Gotta Feeling".
4) The Baha Men have a Grammy. The Kinks do not.
5) Television's _Glee_ has more Top-100 Hits than the Beatles.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. _Mark Twain_


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

The market is vastly different than it once was. We're comparing apples to suspension bridges here.

The buying public is larger, more affluent, buys more music, starts doing so younger on average and continues to buy to a later age, a larger age range of people are listening to pop music than ever, there are fewer restrictions on (especially young) people buying, music can be purchased anywhere today (not so yesterday) and on more than one medium, in a single household today everyone might have their own listening devices compared to when we once shared a single device among many, etc.

Elvis never enjoyed the market that The Black Eyed Peas take/took for granted.

I'm not sure if I want my heroes to be as popular as Glee...

Peace, Mooh.


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## Guest (Feb 23, 2015)

Mooh said:


> I'm not sure if I want my heroes to be as popular as Glee...
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


As long as you don't trade your heroes for ghosts.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I find the young male population to be.......... well, when I hear Meghan Trainor or Katy Perry blasting out of their cars.... just seems like something has gone wrong to me. I am not saying these people can't sing or that some of the tunes are not catchy. Just seems to me that the boy's don't rock anymore. We had disco back in the day but I can't think of anyone I knew that was digging it, unless they were at a bar trying to score. There are some really heavy hitting bands out there right now. When I shot the Mayhem Festival a few summers ago and bands like Trivium, Coheed and Cambria and Walking Papers etc it was predominantly young girls in the crowd. That's my observation anyway.

[video=youtube;IIvSXocE6YY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIvSXocE6YY[/video]


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

another one of those truths for you. 

I read that Adel has sold more copies of her records in England than Pink Floyd has. There is something seriously wrong.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

It's best to compare in ratios and percentages in my opinion.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Sad truths indeed, and in fact, one I like to point to often is that if sales are a measure of quality, one would have to assume that Justin Bieber and Kanye West makes better music than Bach did.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Sad truths indeed, and in fact, one I like to point to often is that if sales are a measure of quality, one would have to assume that Justin Bieber and Kanye West makes better music than Bach did.


guess who will still have sales in 20 years time.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Milkman said:


> Sad truths indeed, and in fact, one I like to point to often is that if sales are a measure of quality, one would have to assume that Justin Bieber and Kanye West makes better music than Bach did.


...........and Mickey D's makes the best burgers in the world. Maybe the universe.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

High/Deaf said:


> ...........and Mickey D's makes the best burgers in the world. Maybe the universe.


Now that's a good way to look at it! That's perspective!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ronmac said:


> guess who will still have sales in 20 years time.



Mabe all three, but I'd wager Kanye sold more "music" in a few years than Bach did for his entire life and probably since he died as well.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

mhammer said:


> _Guitar Player _included a sidebar in this month's issue, listing "5 Musical truths guaranteed to make you sad":
> 
> 1) Ke$ha's "Tik-Tok" has outsold any single by Nirvana
> kurt cobain was an asshole who had contempt for his fans. he is disgustingly over rated. keisha, on the other hand, is pretty hot. hotter than anyone in nirvana.
> ...


just my opinon, ymmv of course






GuitarsCanada said:


> I find the young male population to be.......... well, when I hear Meghan Trainor or Katy Perry blasting out of their cars.... just seems like something has gone wrong to me. I am not saying these people can't sing or that some of the tunes are not catchy. Just seems to me that the boy's don't rock anymore.



this right here, frickin blows me away. i catch myself starting to wonder how it became this way. then my next thought is oh yeah, THAT'S how it became this way. i know how. it's a shame, i wish it wasn't that way. but it is.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Then and now.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I can pick shit lyrics and good lyrics from random samples too


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Budda said:


> I can pick shit lyrics and good lyrics from random samples too


Yeah, I know my post was off base but that kind of shit is dominating the iPods of kids everywhere. It's angry, violent, destructive and listened to as a regular diet for white suburban wannabe gangstas who wouldn't last 2 minutes on the streets of Baltimore, LA or any other big city.


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

You can't compare eras.

More people have bought Chevy Cobalts than Duesenbergs, Model Ts and Ferraris. That doesn't make the Cobalt a great car. It is just the product of promotion in a time frame where the market finds it appropriate to buy.

The world is getting bigger, more people are buying music, especially in nations where the average person couldn't afford a radio in the days of Elvis and Led Zep. It has nothing to do with who is better, more talented or creative. These qualities are a matter of personal taste and somewhat linked to the music that was popular in each of our formative years.

My father would have gone nuts if he was aware Jerry Lee Lewis outsold Glenn Miller or Guy Lombardo! My advice is to just accept the fact that the music industry seduces each generation out of their pocket money by promoting what will best line their greedy pockets. And as usual, most of the young music buyers will follow like sheep, just as they lap up everything the fashion designers put on their plates.

I should know, I once wore bell bottom pants and loud mod shirts with long collars and big yellow polka dots. Long live youth. It's fleeting!


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

In 1971 the world population was about 3,766,754,355
Today world population is about 7,297,067,204 

Roughly double. In1971 nobody had computers, iTunes, iPods, cell phones etc. Today Rhiana can sell a song for $.99 and a large percentage of the world can buy it instantly.
I really don't care for the crap that is spewed out by the pop music industry today. In May 1971, Brown Sugar was released. 'Nuff said.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

mhammer said:


> _Guitar Player _included a sidebar in this month's issue, listing "5 Musical truths guaranteed to make you sad":
> 
> 1) Ke$ha's "Tik-Tok" has outsold any single by Nirvana
> 2) Rihanna has ten #1 singles. That's ten more than Led Zeppelin.
> ...


Pretty much it doesn't matter to me who sells what or how much or who wins awards--I know what I like and I listen to it--and some of it I learn to play--often with a twist of my own.
And it influences my own stuff when I come up with song ideas.

I like some stuff that's well known and some stuff that's probably obscure.

Here are some of the bands & artists on my phone--I'm sure some of them are known in certain circles, but they aren't mainstream by any stretch of the imagination:

AC Reed
Aubrey Ghent
Black Ace
Bob Ricchio
Christopher Parkening
Curtis Salgedo
Dave Beegle
Firstborn Live
Fourth Estate
James Ponak


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Historically, one of the key aspects of rock and roll was the manner in which it allowed young people to dissociate themselves from the adult world around them, in a sort of tribal fashion. Vinyl assisted in this exercise, as did slang. Not that there was never slang _before_ R&R, but it was part of the same overall package that gave young people a distinct identity: my words are not your words.

Vinyl assisted by providing physical objects that could be rare. Many of us here are probably too young to have had the experience, but older members can easily remember a time when it was special to have a "British pressing" (e.g., a Beatles album with a few more songs on it), or a Japanese pressing, or perhaps a pressing that used some sort of special vinyl (e.g., red instead of black), or perhaps a "direct to disc" pressing. Or it could be a special-issue cover. The thing was, that vinyl wears out, and so do the silver masters used to press vinyl. So right from the get-go there was always a limit on vinyl; it wasn't an infinite supply, and one could be "special" and distinctive by owning a particular album. "Import" and specialty record shops provided the means for this. Your favourite band was your brand. And of course, one could sport a button referring to a band or artist on one's clothing as an adjunct.

Let me make up a new word and refer to these things as "idiophanies". There already exist "phany" words, the most common of which is _hierophany _(*Hierophany* (Gk., _hieros_, ‘sacred’, + _phainein_, ‘to show’). The manifestation of the divine or the sacred, especially in a sacred place, object, or occasion. Manifestations of some particular aspect may be named after the aspect revealed, e.g. theophany (of divinity), kratophany (of power).) We are accustomed to the notion of sacred objects: a papal crown, a sacred scroll, the Shroud of Turin, the Kaaba in Mecca. I'll suggest the existence of an "idiophany" as an object that signifies the uniqueness or distinctiveness or separateness of the object-holder. So, if it is 1978, and your black leather jacket has both the front AND back completely covered with studs, _that means you're different_, even if your mohawk is just like your friend's, because no one has a jacket like yours. Rare albums are idiophanies.

Once digital music arrived, whether arriving on a CD or an MP3, or even Pono, it crossed the Rubicon from limited supply and rarity, to essentially infinite supply. Didn't matter how obscure an artist or recording was, your mom and uncle could have it on their MP3 player or phone just as easily as you could. The rarity that gave "our" music meaning, specialness, and allowed us to define ourselves by being different from the generation that preceded us, had essentiually disappeared.

As I was flipping through the current issue of _Premier Guitar _in Chapters the other day, they had a feature on pedalboards of "name" players, and I couldn't help but notice how many of them sported a wad of "booteek" pedals, in addition to the expected presence of EHX and Boss. And it got me to thinking. If the music itself is not a physical object of limited availability anymore, perhaps music gear itself has become the new fetish object. While we were the only ones owning obscure pressings of obscure artists, we were content to buy our instruments and amplifiers off the rack from department stores. Now that the music itself is generic, and oddball clothing has becomewhat large box-stores sell us, the physical objects we use to convey our specialness - and by "special", I don't mean _better_, but rather simply not like you and you and you - seems to have turned into gear. It's not enough to have a fuzzbox. It has to be some oddball thing made in very small quantities; quantities small enough that _you can't have one_. The guitars are not sufficient to be a popular one from a major brand. They have to have custom this and custom that. They can't be like anyone else's. And even when a company makes a "tribute" guitar, it isn't *exactly* like what that musician currently plays. Our gear is our idiophany, simply because the music can't be anymore.

Interesting.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> keisha, on the other hand, is pretty hot. hotter than anyone in nirvana.


She is hotter than anyone in nirvana but she is not 'pretty hot'. She's actually very unattractive and not hot at all...









...until you start comparing her to the guys in nirvana. At that point, I suppose she looks a lot better - especially if you are attracted to John Travolta.













Sometimes the hottest thing about these 'artists' is the photoshop.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

mhammer said:


> _Guitar Player _included a sidebar in this month's issue, listing "5 Musical truths guaranteed to make you sad":
> 
> 1) Ke$ha's "Tik-Tok" has outsold any single by Nirvana
> 2) Rihanna has ten #1 singles. That's ten more than Led Zeppelin.
> ...


1) Ke$ha's "Tik-Tok" has outsold any single by Nirvana

I have no idea who Kesha or Tik-Tok is. I think I'm happy about that. 

2) Rihanna has ten #1 singles. That's ten more than Led Zeppelin.

I do know about Rihanna, mostly because of the domestic violence with her boyfriend. I've never listened intentionally to her music and couldn't name you any of her songs.

3) No Elvis song is more popular that The Black-Eyed Peas' "I Gotta Feeling".

I've heard of both of these!

4) The Baha Men have a Grammy. The Kinks do not.

I thought Baha was a race in California? I have heard of the Kinks and I know these ones are not the ones I feel when I get up in the morning.

5) Television's _Glee_ has more Top-100 Hits than the Beatles.

Glee? Never heard of them.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Mooh said:


> Elvis never enjoyed the market that The Black Eyed Peas take/took for granted.


For Elvis. 50 million fans can't be wrong. For the black eyed peas. 100 million are.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

smorgdonkey said:


> She is hotter than anyone in nirvana but she is not 'pretty hot'. She's actually very unattractive and not hot at all...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



well, i sit at my desk, corrected. you're right, that's not the hottness i saw on google images. you sir, seem to be 100% correct! thank you for the edification.





mhammer said:


> Historically...


also a darn fine post, especially the 2 areas which highlight population/availability, and the part explaining the way kids learn independence through (among other things) creating an identity that's sure to annoy the previous generation. i woulda clicked the thumbs up on your post several more times if i could have. i didnt want to say the same things in my post because it was still way early for the thread. i wanted to see if anyone else would identify these things, and who would it be.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> also a darn fine post, especially the 2 areas which highlight population/availability, and the part explaining the way kids learn independence through (among other things) creating an identity that's sure to annoy the previous generation.


Indeed. I have found hammer's intellect only recently...not that I thought he was a drooler before but perhaps he didn't articulate himself like he has as of late(?) - or I was just too aloof to notice it.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Thanks, gents. You're too kind. Much appreciated.

Carry on,
Mark


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

smorgdonkey said:


> Indeed. I have found hammer's intellect only recently...not that I thought he was a drooler before but perhaps he didn't articulate himself like he has as of late(?) - or I was just too aloof to notice it.


It's his new job. With less time at the computer, he's spitting out gold. I'm still dribbling out the iron pirate.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

cheezyridr said:


> well, i sit at my desk, corrected. you're right, that's not the hottness i saw on google images. you sir, seem to be 100% correct! thank you for the edification.


So how hot do the ladies find anybody here?

just curious--but really--you just need to find one who finds you hot.

I did.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

zontar said:


> Pretty much it doesn't matter to me who sells what or how much or who wins awards--I know what I like and I listen to it--and some of it I learn to play--often with a twist of my own.
> And it influences my own stuff when I come up with song ideas.
> 
> I like some stuff that's well known and some stuff that's probably obscure.
> ...


Don't know many who appreciate Dave Beegle. Ever seen them live? A great, great show. Bought their disc off the side of the stage and still listen to it, lots. {Interesting tidbit - related to another string - they mixed themselves from the stage, no dedicated FOH guy}

My guilty (and under-appreciated) pleasure is Devin Townsend. In all his iterations and incarnations........


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Lincoln said:


> another one of those truths for you.
> 
> I read that Adel has sold more copies of her records in England than Pink Floyd has. There is something seriously wrong.


That ones not sad at all to me. I find Adele far more listenable than Pink Floyd, (and I don't have to be high/tripping to listen to Adele) and she has a recognizable talent in both performing and writing. Pink shouldn't feel bad about this at all.

- - - Updated - - -



bluzfish said:


> Then and now.
> 
> View attachment 12411


meh...a closer comparison might be:



> *"Whole Lotta Love"
> 
> *You need coolin', baby, I'm not foolin',
> I'm gonna send you back to schoolin',
> ...


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Diablo said:


> That ones not sad at all to me. I find Adele far more listenable than Pink Floyd, (and I don't have to be high/tripping to listen to Adele) and she has a recognizable talent in both performing and writing. Pink shouldn't feel bad about this at all.



Pink Floyd deserves a little more respect than that IMO.

I rather enjoy Adele. She has a dynamite voice and a few of the songs are quite nice. I have it on vinyl.

I don't have to be high to appreciate Floyd. It's beautifully composed and produced music and has one of the most soulful and toneful guitarists on the planet. Not everybody likes them but to say you have to be stoned to enjoy it.....ridiculous.

Adele is one of the bright lights in modern music. If it were all that good I'd have a lot les to bitch about.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Say, that Nicki Minaj song sounds good. What's it called?


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Pink Floyd deserves a little more respect than that IMO.
> 
> I rather enjoy Adele. She has a dynamite voice and a few of the songs are quite nice. I have it on vinyl.
> 
> ...


I dunno, everyone I knew in school that was a Floyd fan was a big time stoner. Theyd have parties that consisted of nothing else but drugs and a Floyd album. Or "Laser Floyd"...not a sober person there.
Now, I appreciate that as we all mature and are in our 40's,50's and 60's, most of us have left that stuff behind. but PF will always have stoner connotations for me.


Back to the original topic, I don't find any of this sadder than the fact that McDonalds outsells Ruths Chris in beef. Its expected. the media landscape has changed. music buyers/listeners demographics have changed. Its not really the "music industry" anymore, its the "entertainment industry" as artists aren't expected to just brood morosely into mic like Jim Morrison and then storm off to OD in a hotel room... theyre expected to be marketable, make tv appearances, collaborate with other artists, dance, endorse products etc. and they have more avenues to promote their art and promotion itself has a far greater value than ever before.
Time marches on for all of us.

Its just as sad as when the Beatles were considered more famous in their time than Jesus was in his. Its basically a truism.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

mhammer said:


> Say, that Nicki Minaj song sounds good. What's it called?


Greensleeves.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Pink Floyd deserves a little more respect than that IMO.
> 
> I rather enjoy Adele. She has a dynamite voice and a few of the songs are quite nice. I have it on vinyl.
> 
> ...


I agree. I like adele to. Great very listenable music. Pink Floyd to me is on another level all together. Moves me much more emotionally. its a little over 40 years since I first heard Pink Floyd and I still listen to those recordings on a regular basis. I doubt much that Adele will have that lasting affect on me.

- - - Updated - - -



Diablo said:


> I dunno, everyone I knew in school that was a Floyd fan was a big time stoner.


I admit once I was a stoner. Back in the 70's sitting around stoned at a party someone put on Donny Osmond for a joke. It was quite awesome while stoned. 
I haven't been a stoner since the 70's. I guess the point is if you're stoned enough anything will be great. 
For the last 35 years I haven't needed any stimulant to listen to Pink Floyd.
Oh and Queen is probably my favorite band (with PF a close second) and I'm not gay.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Diablo said:


> I dunno, everyone I knew in school that was a Floyd fan was a big time stoner. Theyd have parties that consisted of nothing else but drugs and a Floyd album. Or "Laser Floyd"...not a sober person there.
> Now, I appreciate that as we all mature and are in our 40's,50's and 60's, most of us have left that stuff behind. but PF will always have stoner connotations for me.
> 
> 
> ...


One might also provide anecdotal evidence that all blues and country fans are drunks.

That's just silly.

As for the topic, it's sad to me that the most popular music is almost never what I would consider to be the best music, but I'm ok with the reality that not everyone has the same tastes or ability to discern good music from bad.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> As for the topic, it's sad to me that the *most popular music is almost never what I would consider to be the best music*, but I'm ok with the reality that not everyone has the same tastes or ability to discern good music from bad.


re: bolded, I think that's important.
Some of these comparisons aren't really fair. In the 70's and 80's, Pink Floyd for example, wasn't really "popular music"....ie the stuff that most radio stations were playing in heavy rotation and (girls) were listening to. So comparing them to, say, Black eyed Peas "I gotta feeling" or whatever isn't really fair. Maybe the BeeGees, or The Cars or Supertramp or something. To me, that's far less contrasting.
I saw in another forum, an obituary for the gal that sang "Its my party"....to me, that is a much more appropriate comparison, to the Black eyed peas song. and I cant say I see one as being better quality music than the other.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Black Eyed Peas aren't so bad really. I've heard a few songs that were kind of fun.

And popular shouldn't be a dirty word, but some of what's most popular these days, I just can't listen to it.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Diablo said:


> I dunno, everyone I knew in school that was a Floyd fan was a big time stoner.


You could say that for more than Floyd. Floyd and gang were featured and listened to on Fm radio, which was the "alternate.. more hip..." station, which also played into the lifestyle of the non establishment types of which there was a greater use of drugs/ free love/ etc etc. 



> . music buyers/listeners demographics have changed. Its not really the "music industry" anymore, its the "entertainment industry" as artists aren't expected to just brood morosely into mic like Jim Morrison and then storm off to OD in a hotel room... theyre expected to be marketable, make tv appearances, collaborate with other artists, dance, endorse products etc. and they have more avenues to promote their art and promotion itself has a far greater value than ever before.
> Time marches on for all of us.
> 
> Its just as sad as when the Beatles were considered more famous in their time than Jesus was in his. Its basically a truism.


Well put. If you can't do it right off the bat thet big labels aren't interested. They don't seem to have the will. Justin Beiber seemed to have been able to meet all those requirements at the beginning ( I am guessing he learned a little bit youtubing ) and all the had to do was supply some cash. 

You are right that has all changed. All most a reflection of economic conditions in the world. The top 1% got all the cash and everybody else has to get a youtube channel


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> Don't know many who appreciate Dave Beegle. Ever seen them live? A great, great show. Bought their disc off the side of the stage and still listen to it, lots. {Interesting tidbit - related to another string - they mixed themselves from the stage, no dedicated FOH guy}
> 
> My guilty (and under-appreciated) pleasure is Devin Townsend. In all his iterations and incarnations........


I first heard Fourth Estate on a compilation album I got cheap--it was my favorite song on the album.
I later re-encountered Dave Beegle when he guested on a Glenn Kaiser Band album (Another band I love that a lot of you may not have heard of)
Since then I have downloaded (Legally) several Dave Beegle songs.
I plan to do so with more of them.


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