# Do we really need to do covers?



## Rattlesnake

Well, the reason I ask is, this is my first time out. I've had people tell me we should, or we have to, and others who say we don't have to do covers. I'd like some intake from people who have been out there and done that, as the people i've spoken to haven't been there. My aspirations would be to do all originals as we write our own songs, but if we have to play covers to get things kicked off we will. Any advice?:confused-smiley-010


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## Wild Bill

*We all do what we gotta do...*



Rattlesnake said:


> Well, the reason I ask is, this is my first time out. I've had people tell me we should, or we have to, and others who say we don't have to do covers. I'd like some intake from people who have been out there and done that, as the people i've spoken to haven't been there. My aspirations would be to do all originals as we write our own songs, but if we have to play covers to get things kicked off we will. Any advice?:confused-smiley-010


Whatever gets you a gig! 

There's always seemed to be more gigs available for cover bands than for those doing originals. The downside is that doing covers caps your growth. You can only go so far as a cover band, unless you manage to become a well-paid tribute band.

A cover band is a "juke box". You're providing the music for the party! You can do that in a bar with originals as well, of course but most bar owners I know won't likely book an unknown band playing originals, at least not for any money. You need to either have a rep already established or an agent who either has a good rep of his own or a great line of BS, or both!

It's all about money. The club owner needs to have confidence that you'll sell enough beer to make it worth his while. You won't get great money offering covers but you seem less of a risk to please the crowd on a Saturday night. After you've proven yourselves to be a good draw you can then start to add in some original material and use those gigs to learn what works with the crowd and what doesn't.

Would you take a chance on losing money with a band that does unknown material? You'd want to see some history.

That being said, being an old guy I've sat through a LOT of sets of bands doing covers and something I learned when I started out still seems true today. Namely, DON'T GET ALL ANAL ABOUT DOING A PERFECT COVER!

The reason I say that is it always seems that the guitarist has a battery of processors, A3's, Line 6's and Pod's and strains his guts out to sound exactly like the original. Why is something I just can't understand. If I wanted to hear it like the original I could have stayed home and listened to the CD.

What makes a version more interesting is if it's NOT like the original! You shouldn't be afraid to offer a different arrangement, maybe with a different lead or a different instrument doing one part or another. When Pat Travers covered "Boom, Boom. Out Go the Lights!" it soounded completely different from the original the way John Lee Hooker did it. I love them both!

I've listened to many players that were obviously extremely skilled and talented and yet I wound up bailing out early.

Just my opinion...


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## Mahogany Martin

Rattlesnake, here's my humble perspective on that: you don't have to. But playing covers might get you some money, it'll get you playing, might even get you gigs and the more you play and more gigs you do, the tighter you'll get. If you introduce original songs throughout, you get to experiment, see how they feel live, get the crowd's feedback etc and your evening is not entirely focussed on only three or five originals (EDIT: sharing an evening with other bands). Until you establish a following with people who absolutely adore your own songs, I think that covers may have a place in a developping band. YMMV. :rockon:


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## aaron

I couldnt agree with you more Martin.This is my humble advise,When just starting out,do whatever you have to to get on stage.You can jam non stop but with out stage experience you suck.Most musicians want to be known for their song writing skills however,you need to get tight and I mean super duper tight on stage before you start trying to showcase your own songs.I know when I was starting to gig we had a member in the band that only wanted to do big shows,and no opening acts!To keep the peace we went along with him,big mistake,when we finally got to open for a bigger band we where all struck with nerves,and couldnt get our shit together enough to get through the set.

So play anything,remember when starting out the preformance is for your benifit,it's not gonna make you guy's rawk god's.We used to play just for gas $ and if I could have afforded it I would have gladly played for nothing,just stage time.Ofcourse in the progression of thing this will change when there is demand for your band,but this sometimes takes years,5 years of sleeping on peoples couches in my case.
Take care
Aaron


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## Milkman

Wild Bill,

You stated:

"Whatever gets you a gig! 

There's always seemed to be more gigs available for cover bands than for those doing originals. The downside is that doing covers caps your growth. You can only go so far as a cover band, unless you manage to become a well-paid tribute band."

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Perhaps you mean caps your financial grow? Learning covers is in my opinion, a very effective way to develop as a musician.

It develops your ears, your chops and your understanding of arrangments and songwriting.

Too often the guys who claim only hacks and lounge acts should do covers say so because they simply lack the skills to do so.

I'm not saying that's always the case but check out Gilby Clark trying to do covers on Rock Star Supernova. The house band's guitarist is ten times the player.

Funny how in rock music there's a stigma to playing covers, but in blues, jazz and classical it's pretty much standard. 



I do originals as well as covers. There are gigs where all we do are originals from the album. There are also gigs where we do a mix.

It's good to be able to do both in my opinion.


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## Tarl

I thought Wild Bill,s post was right on the money. At most gigs you are there to sell beer and get people to dance whether with covers or originals. Covers can also be fun to play and help you progress musically as Milkman stated. Also they never have to be exactly like the original....as long as folks recognise the tune.


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## Wild Bill

*The same only different...*



Milkman said:


> Wild Bill,
> 
> Perhaps you mean caps your financial grow? Learning covers is in my opinion, a very effective way to develop as a musician.
> 
> I'm not saying that's always the case but check out Gilby Clark trying to do covers on Rock Star Supernova. The house band's guitarist is ten times the player.


Yep, that's exactly what I meant, Mr. Milk! I fully agree with both your points. especially the last..


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## PaulS

Yep and I agree with both Bill and Martin. Getting gigs is important to work on your sound and presentation in a live atmosphere. But by throwing in a original here and there most audiences are pretty receptive and it gives you a chance to test some of your stuff. After you got people liking the original stuff you can keep introducing it. But you got to get out and play to get your act together....:rockon:


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## james on bass

Can't disagree with anyone so far. Get gigs as a cover band and start sneaking originals in while you guys get tighter and tighter and start to get a reputation as a fun band to see.


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## GTmaker

great topic so I'll jump in with my 2 cents worth from an old fart whose "been there done that"

I allways loved changing covered songs to make them our own. Change the tempo, add a solo , USE VOLUME DYNAMICS ( nobody does that anymore...shame). Sometimes, coming up with a great new arrangement of an old song takes more work and talent then writing a new one.

About originals....poping in an original here and there is a great idea as allready mentioned. Nothing better then audience immediate reaction to let you know if your on the right track. IF the original isnt up to par, dont kid yourself. Change it and make it better untill its as good as everything else you play.

OK thats it for now.


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## hoser

The basic answer is, no you don't have to do covers.
It really depends on what you want to do, that's up to you to decide. Do you want to be a part of a scene where original music is prevelent or just another cover bar band? Cover bands usually play the whole night while bands who do originals usually split the night and rely on each other's fans. Its a fun way to develop a fanbase and network with other bands who have the same goals as you.

Personally I've never played in a band that did a lot of covers. reason being is that I came up in the punk rock scene where doing your own material was expected and required. So it's just the way I've done things since I was 14. However, I do like to do a couple of fun covers every now and then.


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## Rattlesnake

*Dats It!!*

Well, i'd like to thank all the above for their views, in which some interesting points have been made. I definately have the answers that I needed!!:food-smiley-004: 

So what our band will do is play covers (our own style), and slide in our originals here and there as a starting point. If that don't work then we'll try playing all originals to see what works for us. Once again, thanks to all responses! :food-smiley-015:


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## Milkman

hoser said:


> The basic answer is, no you don't have to do covers.
> It really depends on what you want to do, that's up to you to decide. Do you want to be a part of a scene where original music is prevelent or just another cover bar band? Cover bands usually play the whole night while bands who do originals usually split the night and rely on each other's fans. Its a fun way to develop a fanbase and network with other bands who have the same goals as you.
> 
> Personally I've never played in a band that did a lot of covers. reason being is that I came up in the punk rock scene where doing your own material was expected and required. So it's just the way I've done things since I was 14. However, I do like to do a couple of fun covers every now and then.




"just another cover band"?


LMAO. Again, the subtle yet obvious attitude of condescension. Coming up in the punk rock scene implies that technique would be a secondary factor. That in itself would make it difficult to play covers that would be recognizable.


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## hoser

Milkman said:


> "just another cover band"?
> 
> 
> LMAO. Again, the subtle yet obvious attitude of condescension. Coming up in the punk rock scene implies that technique would be a secondary factor. That in itself would make it difficult to play covers that would be recognizable.


blah blah blah.
don't put words in my mouth...err...post.

not being condescending at all, the point is this: there are thousands of cover bands out there all playing the same songs. it's very easy to get lost in the shuffle. there are thousands of cover bands out there who try to slip in an original here and there and never follow through on going for it with their originals because doing covers is their bread and butter and the cash that comes with being in a cover band is more important than personal art and fulfillment. I've seen it many times over and seen talent wasted because of it.

For the record I don't have a problem with anyone being in a cover band IF THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT TO DO. How's that, clear enough for you now?
The whole of my post was about making a decision regarding what kind of environment you want to play in and what's more important to the musician, not this bullshit you're nitpicking about.

As for "technique would be a secondary factor", early on my focus was on songwriting, but I can hold my own with anyone thank you very much..


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## Milkman

hoser said:


> blah blah blah.
> don't put words in my mouth...err...post.
> 
> not being condescending at all, the point is this: there are thousands of cover bands out there all playing the same songs. it's very easy to get lost in the shuffle. there are thousands of cover bands out there who try to slip in an original here and there and never follow through on going for it with their originals because doing covers is their bread and butter and the cash that comes with being in a cover band is more important than personal art and fulfillment. I've seen it many times over and seen talent wasted because of it.
> 
> For the record I don't have a problem with anyone being in a cover band IF THAT'S WHAT THEY WANT TO DO. How's that, clear enough for you now?
> The whole of my post was about making a decision regarding what kind of environment you want to play in and what's more important to the musician, not this bullshit you're nitpicking about.
> 
> As for "technique would be a secondary factor", early on my focus was on songwriting, but I can hold my own with anyone thank you very much..



LOL, struck a nerve I guess eh?



Look, I'v eheard the same crap for thirty years, mostly from guys who couldn't lift a part or play a recognizable cover to save their souls. How convenient that they also don't want to. Can you say "cop out"?


I admire guys who go out and do only originals. I do the same at appropriate gigs, but I can put my money where my mouth is and play technically difficult covers as well.


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## elindso

I saw an interview with Joey Ramone (it was old he's still dead).

He said " We started doing origional stuff because the covers we tried were too hard to play for us" (paraphrased).

This thread is deja vu, from many places.


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## david henman

...i plan to add a more detailed post of my thought re covers vs originals but, for now, i'll pass on a very valuable lesson, from experience:

if you are going to sneak in originals amongst the covers, NEVER, EVER announce that they are originals. i'm sure many here will back me up on this, and perhasps even list the reasons why.

-dh


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## elindso

"Well here is a song you don't know ". That makes a lot of sense. A good song will stand on it's own, without an excuse. 

People want to hear what they know usually.

It really depends on the venue though.

I do go to my friends son's gigs. "Shoot the Moon" they are all young folks and local bands. Some good and some not so good. They have a following. The Arcade of Fire are from around here and used to play the same small clubs.


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## hoser

Milkman said:


> LOL, struck a nerve I guess eh?
> 
> Look, I'v eheard the same crap for thirty years, mostly from guys who couldn't lift a part or play a recognizable cover to save their souls. How convenient that they also don't want to. Can you say "cop out"?


Not really, I just don't appreciate anyone attempting to discredit me because I'm coming from a different way of doing things. I really don't see what this has to do with my post.



> I admire guys who go out and do only originals. I do the same at appropriate gigs, but I can put my money where my mouth is and play technically difficult covers as well.


Did you miss this part of my original post?

"However, I do like to do a couple of fun covers every now and then."

It's not like I'm saying I'm above doing covers. They can be fun. Like I said, I came up in a scene where writing your own material was a given, and there's nothing wrong with that, doesn't mean that I didn't learn covers or learn from my favorite players.

How narrow minded for anyone on this thread to think that because someone does mostly original material that they can't play. It's absurd. Thankfully none of the great bands of our time thought that way or they wouldn't have even tried.


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## PaulS

my take is if the originals are good they will speak for themselves....
If the audience likes them ... go with them, nothing wrong with trying to be original... it's getting dam hard any more...:rockon:


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## Milkman

hoser said:


> Not really, I just don't appreciate anyone attempting to discredit me because I'm coming from a different way of doing things. I really don't see what this has to do with my post.
> 
> 
> 
> Did you miss this part of my original post?
> 
> "However, I do like to do a couple of fun covers every now and then."
> 
> It's not like I'm saying I'm above doing covers. They can be fun. Like I said, I came up in a scene where writing your own material was a given, and there's nothing wrong with that, doesn't mean that I didn't learn covers or learn from my favorite players.
> 
> How narrow minded for anyone on this thread to think that because someone does mostly original material that they can't play. It's absurd. Thankfully none of the great bands of our time thought that way or they wouldn't have even tried.



Narrow minded? Ok, if you say so. No sense beating a dead horse. As I've said repeatedly, I hear the guys who only play originals running down cover bands or bands that do both all the time. 

There's a difference between being a musician and being a rock star. Your first post, whether you want to admit it or not, implied that doing covers is somehow less worthy than doing originals.

Tell that to all the classical, jazz, and blues artists out there.


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## Rattlesnake

*Dat's It!!*

We are confident with our originals, we've had better than average feed back on them, it's just that we're now beyond rehearsal, and we weren't certain if we had to do covers in order to have our music heard and to book gigs. Our plan is to market our music and to sell original material. But, at all the indie shows i've been to, they all seem to do covers here and there along with their originals. I'm just not sure if they're doing that because they have to, or because they just don't have enough original material. And, unfortunately for myself, our band has no experience in this field as we're just getting started.


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## Rattlesnake

and I will read up on re: cover vs. originals! thanks!


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## hoser

Milkman said:


> Narrow minded? Ok, if you say so. No sense beating a dead horse. As I've said repeatedly, I hear the guys who only play originals running down cover bands or bands that do both all the time.


Can't you read? No where have I said "only originals". I ran down no one. YOU took what I posted and twisted it into something it wasn't. YOU went on the defensive and I responded.

It is extremely narrowminded to assume that because someone plays in a mostly original band they are somehow an inferior musician to someone who plays in a cover band, and vice versa. Quite insulting as well.



> There's a difference between being a musician and being a rock star. Your first post, whether you want to admit it or not, implied that doing covers is somehow less worthy than doing originals.
> 
> Tell that to all the classical, jazz, and blues artists out there.


That's bullshit. I do think it's a little more special and exciting to see someone up there belting out a kickass original, I won't deny that. 
If it makes people happy playing straight covers, being a "jukebox" I believe was posted earlier, then good for them. As I've said all along, playing covers can be fun.

I can't even believe I'm having this argument. It's utterly ridiculous.


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## hoser

Rattlesnake said:


> We are confident with our originals, we've had better than average feed back on them, it's just that we're now beyond rehearsal, and we weren't certain if we had to do covers in order to have our music heard and to book gigs. Our plan is to market our music and to sell original material. But, at all the indie shows i've been to, they all seem to do covers here and there along with their originals. I'm just not sure if they're doing that because they have to, or because they just don't have enough original material. And, unfortunately for myself, our band has no experience in this field as we're just getting started.


They might be doing them because they just like the songs, or need to fill time.
If you're playing a circuit that has mostly original bands I'd suggest throwing in a couple of "crowd friendly" covers.. not ones that everyone and their dog has done but something people know, and preferably can sing along with. It always adds a bit of fun to the set when you get people going "holy shit they're playing THAT".


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## Milkman

hoser said:


> Can't you read? No where have I said "only originals". I ran down no one. YOU took what I posted and twisted it into something it wasn't. YOU went on the defensive and I responded.
> 
> It is extremely narrowminded to assume that because someone plays in a mostly original band they are somehow an inferior musician to someone who plays in a cover band, and vice versa. Quite insulting as well.
> 
> 
> 
> That's bullshit. I do think it's a little more special and exciting to see someone up there belting out a kickass original, I won't deny that.
> If it makes people happy playing straight covers, being a "jukebox" I believe was posted earlier, then good for them. As I've said all along, playing covers can be fun.
> 
> I can't even believe I'm having this argument. It's utterly ridiculous.



LMAO,

Settle down man, You're going to blow a gasket.


I stand by my statements. If you don't like it, well, you know the rest.


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## hoser

Whatever..


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## david henman

hoser said:


> The basic answer is, no you don't have to do covers.


...basically, i agree. however, you _may_ have to play covers in order to get paid. _depending on circumstances_, most club owners will _not_ pay you to come in and play originals (unless of course you have a well-established following, for one example).

that said, one of the things that keeps this business interesting is when people come along and break all the established rules and make up their own rules.

-dh


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## hoser

david henman said:


> ...basically, i agree. however, you _may_ have to play covers in order to get paid. _depending on circumstances_, most club owners will _not_ pay you to come in and play originals (unless of course you have a well-established following, for one example).
> 
> that said, one of the things that keeps this business interesting is when people come along and break all the established rules and make up their own rules.
> 
> -dh


For sure, depending on the place. Hopefully though anyone playing would scope out a club and know what they're getting into before hand.


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## Lester B. Flat

Your damned if you do and damned if you don't. 

Early on, your _damned if you don't_ because you have to prove to tone deaf club owners and the unwashed masses that you can play. If they don't hear something they recognise, they don't know what to think. Doing covers is also the best way to increase your musical vocabulary. Learning and playing a song you don't even like can teach you something. Paying your dues means doing gigs and getting gigs means doing covers (there are exceptions but these people are starving). If your a writer, re-arranging covers can satisfy both your creative urges and the people with the money. It'll keep you gigging.

At some point however, your _damned if you do_ because few, maybe nobody, gets a "deal" without original material. How many famous cover bands are there? If a "deal" or high profile career is what you want, and you are doing only covers, your chances are practically zero. If, however, you have some great originals, your chances increase to _almost_ practically zero. 

I'd strongly recommend doing covers but not at the expense of your creative output. The money can be seductive doing covers and you might keep putting your originals on the back burner. This can go on for years til your hair starts falling out. Start mixing them in and give them a life before yours is over.:rockon:


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## Rattlesnake

*Dat's IT!!*

Very well put, damned if I do, damned if I don't. IT sounds like we should open the doors with covers and throw in originals to see if the originals will stand on their own. If they do, then we'll go from there!! Thanks again to all!!


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## SCREEM

Lester B. Flat said:


> Your damned if you do and damned if you don't.
> 
> Early on, your _damned if you don't_ because you have to prove to tone deaf club owners and the unwashed masses that you can play. If they don't hear something they recognise, they don't know what to think. Doing covers is also the best way to increase your musical vocabulary. Learning and playing a song you don't even like can teach you something. Paying your dues means doing gigs and getting gigs means doing covers (there are exceptions but these people are starving). If your a writer, re-arranging covers can satisfy both your creative urges and the people with the money. It'll keep you gigging.
> 
> At some point however, your _damned if you do_ because few, maybe nobody, gets a "deal" without original material. How many famous cover bands are there? If a "deal" or high profile career is what you want, and you are doing only covers, your chances are practically zero. If, however, you have some great originals, your chances increase to _almost_ practically zero.
> 
> I'd strongly recommend doing covers but not at the expense of your creative output. The money can be seductive doing covers and you might keep putting your originals on the back burner. This can go on for years til your hair starts falling out. Start mixing them in and give them a life before yours is over.:rockon:



Ding,Ding,Ding, we have a winner :tongue:


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## lolligagger

There are some interesting points in this thread...I think most people can see both sides of the coin from the perspectives provided. 

I love the Ramones quote. I had a similar situation back in the day when joined my old high school friends in a cover band that they had formed. I always felt that we sucked as a cover band...the breaking point for me was the band's "Northern Pikes" song "She Ain't Pretty". We were bad at playing this song, really bad. I just couldn't play it with any kind of enthusiasm, which probably sucked the life out of the other guy's performances. My feeling was that we could write originals that sounded better. They may not have been "better", but the entire experience associated with writing the song, developing as a band and playing live shows to people who appreciated our music (besides the guitar player's mom) was what made music fun to do. We practiced with dedication and played with enthusiasm. 

Having said that, we did eventually find some covers that worked for us. Summer in the City for example was a really fun to play and just simply worked from the start. I don't think a lot of the kids at the shows knew this song was a hit for the Lovin Spoonful in 1966...it didn't matter, because it rocked.


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## FrogRick12

lolligagger said:


> me was the band's "Northern Pikes" song "She Ain't Pretty". We were bad at playing this song, really bad. I just couldn't play it with any kind of enthusiasm


That's because it was a BAD song...don't feel bad.

I love this thread - I'm screaming at my computer screen!

My .02:

1) ALL GREAT BANDS were cover bands (with very few exceptions)

2) Don't play your originals right out of the box unless you are a graduate of Julliard or G.I.T.

3) Don't play me your lame-ass, half-baked, no middle eight, can't-tell-what the-chorus-is, derivative, tone-deaf originals unless you know or are proficient in::

a) songwriting
b) song structure
c) audience entertaining
d) playing or singing ability

All of which can learned by (wait for it)....

PLAYING COVERS!!


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## Milkman

FrogRick12 said:


> That's because it was a BAD song...don't feel bad.
> 
> I love this thread - I'm screaming at my computer screen!
> 
> My .02:
> 
> 1) ALL GREAT BANDS were cover bands (with very few exceptions)
> 
> 2) Don't play your originals right out of the box unless you are a graduate of Julliard or G.I.T.
> 
> 3) Don't play me your lame-ass, half-baked, no middle eight, can't-tell-what the-chorus-is, derivative, tone-deaf originals unless you know or are proficient in::
> 
> a) songwriting
> b) song structure
> c) audience entertaining
> d) playing or singing ability
> 
> All of which can learned by (wait for it)....
> 
> PLAYING COVERS!!



Just when I think I'm a voice in the wilderness.


Thank you.:food-smiley-004:


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## Rattlesnake

*Dat's It!!*

I'll be posting our originals once our myspace is up and running for one and all to have have a listen to! Thanks, Rattlesnake!


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## elindso

FrogRick12 said:


> That's because it was a BAD song...don't feel bad.
> 
> I love this thread - I'm screaming at my computer screen!
> 
> My .02:
> 
> 1) ALL GREAT BANDS were cover bands (with very few exceptions)
> 
> 2) Don't play your originals right out of the box unless you are a graduate of Julliard or G.I.T.
> 
> 3) Don't play me your lame-ass, half-baked, no middle eight, can't-tell-what the-chorus-is, derivative, tone-deaf originals unless you know or are proficient in::
> 
> a) songwriting
> b) song structure
> c) audience entertaining
> d) playing or singing ability
> 
> All of which can learned by (wait for it)....
> 
> PLAYING COVERS!!


Very well put. :wink: :smile: :thanks5qx:


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## Milkman

jroberts said:


> That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.
> 
> 
> 
> ...and that's a close second.
> 
> Firstly, you're telling me that I have to be some kind of shredder before I'm allowed to play my own songs in public? Then, you tell me that I shouldn't be playing my songs for anyone until I'm an experienced songwriter and performer? I know a better way to learn how to write songs than playing covers. It's called *writing songs*. It's a skill that can be learned like any other. The more you practice, the better you get.
> 
> All this kind of talk sounds like the bitter, piss-poor justification of people who find themselves stuck in cover bands and are too afraid to try writing their own material.



Be careful, you may indeed be dealing with people who are better and more experienced writers than you are.

As my college professor (applied music program) once told me, you should learn the rules before you presume to break them.

Yes, you can do whatever you choose, but that's not much different than the mechanic who decides he knows better than all the mechanics before him.

Do you want that guy working on YOUR car?

Shredder? Who said anything about that? Typical. Anyone who actually learns to play is somehow deserving of contempt.:zzz:


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## Milkman

jroberts said:


> Who cares? If someone has more experience than me, he should presume to tell *ME* not to make music?! That's such elitist bullshit, I don't even have the words to properly express how wrong it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Rediculous analogy. My life or safty is not put at risk by hearing an inexperienced songwriter play a song I don't like.
> 
> 
> 
> "Don't play your originals right out of the box unless you are a graduate of Julliard or G.I.T."
> 
> 
> 
> Be careful, you may be dealing with a person who is a better and more experienced player than you are.
> 
> 
> 
> By saying that you don't have to be a graduate of G.I.T. or Juliard to play your own music, I am holding good players in contempt? Nice straw man.



Someone who is trained formally is autonmatically a shredder?


You're ridiculous.


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## hoser

jroberts said:


> Who cares? If someone has more experience than me, he should presume to tell *ME* not to make music?! That's such elitist bullshit, I don't even have the words to properly express how wrong it is.
> 
> Rediculous analogy. My life or safty is not put at risk by hearing an inexperienced songwriter play a song I don't like.
> 
> "Don't play your originals right out of the box unless you are a graduate of Julliard or G.I.T."
> 
> Be careful, you may be dealing with a person who is a better and more experienced player than you are.
> 
> By saying that you don't have to be a graduate of G.I.T. or Juliard to play your own music, I am holding good players in contempt? Nice attemot at a straw man.


don't bother trying to argue, we all know there's only one way to obtain musical fulfillment, and that's playing covers! playing your own music can never be as rewarding as playing someone elses, how ridiculous! Sure, you may try to "slip in a couple" of originals, but a full set? Unheard of! In fact, it's plain wrong! Goddamn kids wtf is wrong with them? Originals!?! Next thing they'll be making records in their bedrooms on them darm compulators.


----------



## FrogRick12

Lester B. Flat said:


> Your damned if you do and damned if you don't.
> 
> Early on, your _damned if you don't_ because you have to prove to tone deaf club owners and the unwashed masses that you can play. If they don't hear something they recognise, they don't know what to think. Doing covers is also the best way to increase your musical vocabulary. Learning and playing a song you don't even like can teach you something. Paying your dues means doing gigs and getting gigs means doing covers (there are exceptions but these people are starving). If your a writer, re-arranging covers can satisfy both your creative urges and the people with the money. It'll keep you gigging.
> 
> At some point however, your _damned if you do_ because few, maybe nobody, gets a "deal" without original material. How many famous cover bands are there? If a "deal" or high profile career is what you want, and you are doing only covers, your chances are practically zero. If, however, you have some great originals, your chances increase to _almost_ practically zero.
> 
> I'd strongly recommend doing covers but not at the expense of your creative output. The money can be seductive doing covers and you might keep putting your originals on the back burner. This can go on for years til your hair starts falling out. Start mixing them in and give them a life before yours is over.:rockon:


Thank you - beautifully put!

That's what I love about this forum and about guitarists in general - lots of
passion for the craft and for vigorous debate!

Now to clarify:

My "Julliard / G.I.T." remark is admittedly an oversimplification (I sure as hell didn't attend either school!) but I am attempting to address what I see as a disturbing trend in guitar-oriented pop/rock music for young and new players to start "writing" "songs" before they know what a I-IV-V pattern is or before they own a tuner. 

It's got nothing to do with punk either - Steve Jones and Joe Strummer were great guitar players in their own right. 

All of this is based on the assumption that you are playing in a public forum for money - that makes you a professional in my book.

If you want to sit at home and start creating your own music before you can master a G7 chord, that's your business - knock yerself out.

Just don't try to book yourself a date at a club - that's all. 

:rockon:

And if you play the guitar, you're a friend of mine.


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## FrogRick12

jroberts said:


> All this kind of talk sounds like the bitter, piss-poor justification of people who find themselves stuck in cover bands and are too afraid to try writing their own material.


Actually, I've been a member of SOCAN for 16 years and my band has just completed its third CD of which I have written and co-written a number of songs.:wave:


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## FrogRick12

Milkman said:


> Just when I think I'm a voice in the wilderness.
> 
> 
> Thank you.:food-smiley-004:



You're welcome!


----------



## hoser

FrogRick12 said:


> I am attempting to address what I see as a disturbing trend in guitar-oriented pop/rock music for young and new players to start "writing" "songs" before they know what a I-IV-V pattern is or before they own a tuner. .


Bands who aren't ready to be onstage is a totally separate issue. I know I've seen a lot of them and it's always sad, for the audience and the band. No one wants to see, or play in a sloppy band with crappy songs. That goes for both cover and original bands.



> It's got nothing to do with punk either - Steve Jones and Joe Strummer were great guitar players in their own right.


Right on. I love the Clash. London Calling is one of the most important albums of all time.



> All of this is based on the assumption that you are playing in a public forum for money - that makes you a professional in my book.
> 
> If you want to sit at home and start creating your own music before you can master a G7 chord, that's your business - knock yerself out.
> 
> Just don't try to book yourself a date at a club - that's all.


Again, I know for myself, I'm not talking about bands who are not ready to play live, or beginner players (although I think people should start writing as soon as they're serious about their instument, it's just as important as anything else, but not as a replacement for learning the instrument). That's a totally different issue.


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## aaron

This is how I see it,(great discussion by the way)The ultimate goal is to be able to preform you own tunes live and have people remember what It was all about.It takes stage time to learn how to make your songs come accross as intended.The best way to get good on stage is to play alot on stage,and the most affective way to get stage time is to do covers,the tighter your cover's are the more shows you'll book.I also believe there are good lesson's in songwritting when sitting down and truly nailing a good cover.I would rather play half assed cover's than half assed original's.So untill your live show is running super smoothly leave most of your own stuff in the jam space.Thrownig in the odd, short orig may not be a problem,but I always made sure we could slip it in without clearing the dance floor!!Which happened many times!! :food-smiley-004: 
Aaron


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## FrogRick12

aaron said:


> This is how I see it,(great discussion by the way)The ultimate goal is to be able to preform you own tunes live and have people remember what It was all about.It takes stage time to learn how to make your songs come accross as intended.The best way to get good on stage is to play alot on stage,and the most affective way to get stage time is to do covers,the tighter your cover's are the more shows you'll book.I also believe there are good lesson's in songwritting when sitting down and truly nailing a good cover.I would rather play half assed cover's than half assed original's.So untill your live show is running super smoothly leave most of your own stuff in the jam space.Thrownig in the odd, short orig may not be a problem,but I always made sure we could slip it in without clearing the dance floor!!Which happened many times!! :food-smiley-004:
> Aaron


We have another winner!:rockon2:


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## PaulS

From my own expierences over the years, more when I was younger, I would have to agree with aaron and FrogRick12 views on this subject. There is a lot to be learned from doing covers in the playing field, song arrangements,hooks.
And yes you need to get your stage act together, get over the stagefright, and get exposure...


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## PaulS

I strongly urge anyone starting out on guitar to learn the basics. Get some theory under your belt. Understand modes,learn scales, work on technique, work on tone. Basically learn your instrument, it will make things a lot easier and a lot more fun... just my opinion. And along the way there is nothing stopping you from being creative. But there is a lot to be learned from what is already there. :rockon:


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## PaulS

I suppose that depends on if you want to be a guitar player or a guitar player/composer . Now before you flame me I might add that some us just play the guitar our creative juices flow in different directions than one that is into composing. I am not saying that you can not be a great guitar player because there are many great player/composers out there. But some tend more to be a player than a composer and that is where this thread is getting kind of cloudy. To each his own and respect the path of others.


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## FrogRick12

jroberts said:


> _completely_ ignore FrogRick's bitter, anti-creative, stifling advice. You don't have to go to GIT or spend 15 years playing "Sweet Home Alabama" to slobbering drunks before learning to write songs. Start now. It's a skill you can learn like any other. Play what sounds good to you, work on becoming better, and tell guys like FrogRick to shove it when they tell you you're too young or don't have enough experience playing covers to try your own material.
> 
> :rockon:


Your remarks and attitude are an object lesson in "bitterness".

Real good talking to you. Have a nice life. Bye bye now.


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## Milkman

Originally Posted by jroberts
completely ignore FrogRick's bitter, anti-creative, stifling advice. You don't have to go to GIT or spend 15 years playing "Sweet Home Alabama" to slobbering drunks before learning to write songs. Start now. It's a skill you can learn like any other. Play what sounds good to you, work on becoming better, and tell guys like FrogRick to shove it when they tell you you're too young or don't have enough experience playing covers to try your own material.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Better tell me to shove it also. Hey while you're at it, tell all the guys out there who have done both original music and covers to shove it. Tell it to the guys who have devoted years of their lives to playing, writing, recording. Tell it to the guys who have spent decades on the road living out of suitcases. Heck, what do they know?

None


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## Milkman

jroberts said:


> OK.
> 
> 
> 
> If those guys are telling people not to try writing songs until they've gone to GIT or spent years on the road, then yes, they should be told to shove it as well. Most real musicians would never tell someone starting out that they shouldn't be creative.



You're confused.

I and guys like FrogRick are only saying that you should learn a bit about music before you plunge into writing. The absolute crap coming out of many bands who have followed your advice is ample evidence of why it's important to learn the rules of western harmony and basic compositional concepts before you try to create your own music.


No, you don't have to study formally although dismissing those who do is pretty dumb, but ignoring those who have gone before you is not a smart approach in my opinion.

Again, so many players use the excuse that they want to be "original" to explain why they don't play covers.


In all but a few cases, the reality is that they can't do it. Quite convenient that they also don't want to eh?


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## PaulS

Well you are all right....

a) creativity should be encouraged at any stage of any art, I agree it should not be stifled. 

b) there is a lot to learn from what has been laid before you, learn from others grasshopper...

c) practice makes perfect ... 

d) expierence is the greatest teacher

Your creativity and playing will speak for you. I wish you luck in your endeavors...

And for the rest or us that like to rawk...:rockon2:


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## Milkman

jroberts said:


> From your non-sequitur responses to my posts, I'd say you're the one with the comprehension issue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...says the self-appointed arbiter of good taste.
> 
> 
> 
> Where are you getting this from? Where have I "dismissed" formal study? What the hell does "ignoring those that have gone before you" even mean in this context? This is an issue of whether someone should start songwriting early in their musical education or whether they should wait for years before trying to write songs. You believe the latter; I beleive the former. It has nothing whatesover to do with "ignoring those that have gone before you".
> 
> 
> 
> Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, some people get more enjoyment from making their own music than in playing other people's music? Why do you have such a problem with that? How about if you play the music _you_ want to play, let others play the music _they_ want to play, and refrain from denegrating people just because they may not share your desire to play in a cover band. Your superiority complex isn't becoming.


You're so sure you know all about me aren't you? You do indeed sound bitter and frankly quite angry. THAT isn't becoming.

You're making leaps of logic and assumptions.

Your words:

"This is an issue of whether someone should start songwriting early in their musical education or whether they should wait for years before trying to write songs. You believe the latter; I beleive the former. It has nothing whatesover to do with "ignoring those that have gone before you"."

Nonsense and nobody said this. Wait years? Not necessarily, but you should learn basic song structure and harmony and melody within the context of songs that have already been written. 

Try reading what I write and don't bother to extrapolate the opinions to portray me as some sort of distorted boogeyman.

(makes you come off as a bit of a nut).


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## david henman

PaulS said:


> I strongly urge anyone starting out on guitar to learn the basics. Get some theory under your belt. Understand modes,learn scales, work on technique, work on tone. Basically learn your instrument, it will make things a lot easier and a lot more fun... just my opinion. And along the way there is nothing stopping you from being creative. But there is a lot to be learned from what is already there. :rockon:


...over my forty-plus years of playing, singing and writing, i have steadfastly avoided learning anything about music, especially in regard to theory, modes, scales, technique, notation, songwriting formulas and techniques etc etc etc etc ad infinitum.

i only write music when i'm in an "altered state", and am extremely careful to ignore any and all "rules".

this works for me. would it work for anyone else? i neither know, nor care, as i could never imagine suggesting that someone else work the way i do.

art is very, very personal, in my opinion.

-dh


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## aaron

I just want to clear this up,I think it's fine to write your own tunes!I think most of us started learning guitar by learning a couple simple song's,playing them for hours, then sitting on the corner of the bed useing the few chords we knew and arranging them differently, calling the result a song.My only point is before you showcase your tunes,make sure they are ones you truly want to showcase.Speaking for myself,I wrote songs for many years while playing cover's in a band,but the only one's I would let hear them where my girlfriend and my bandmates.I knew then that they we not what I wanted representing me and the band,just plain 'ol crappy orig's.IMHO, and from my experence it takes years of writting to express your in a way that acually does you justice.Playing covers casn speed that process up.


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## david henman

aaron said:


> My only point is before you showcase your tunes,make sure they are ones you truly want to showcase.Speaking for myself,I wrote songs for many years while playing cover's in a band,but the only one's I would let hear them where my girlfriend and my bandmates.I knew then that they we not what I wanted representing me and the band,just plain 'ol crappy orig's.IMHO, and from my experence it takes years of writting to express your in a way that acually does you justice.Playing covers casn speed that process up.


...i can identify with this. i've been writing songs since i was 13. thats 45 years ago. only recently have i begun to feel that my songs are worth showcasing.

-dh


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## hoser

david henman said:


> ...i can identify with this. i've been writing songs since i was 13. thats 45 years ago. only recently have i begun to feel that my songs are worth showcasing.
> 
> -dh


But is that because _you_ felt the songs weren't "there" or because of a cultural thing or the musical environment you came up in. You're close to my father's age, and he's kind of the same way regarding originals....it's almost like writing and performing your own stuff is an alien thing....incomprehensible almost....and it's not that he hasn't or doesn't write....he just doesn't play his stuff for anyone (too bad because some of it's killer).
he came up in the era where you just did not play your own stuff. It just wasn't done. You played a week straight in a club doing top 40 stuff. That was just the environment. But also, his priorities were different. He was playing in part to support a family.

The musical environment I came up in fostered original creativity. No one looked down on anyone who did covers (over the years I know I've done plenty) but writing and performing my own material was a big part of my formative years as a player, and just as important as learning any guitar technique....and it continues to be.
Money has never much of a motivator in my years of playing...I've never had to play to support myself, it's never been a job as such (I was a sound tech for 5 yrs though). Perhaps that also plays a role in my opinion on writing.

All this stuff has to be factored into reasons why people either start writing right away or wait until they're 50 to start doing it...or never do it at all.....the environment that we all came up in plays a huge role in our outlooks on this.

Anyway, keep it up, this is finally getting interesting.


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## Milkman

hoser said:


> But is that because _you_ felt the songs weren't "there" or because of a cultural thing or the musical environment you came up in. You're close to my father's age, and he's kind of the same way regarding originals....it's almost like writing and performing your own stuff is an alien thing....incomprehensible almost....and it's not that he hasn't or doesn't write....he just doesn't play his stuff for anyone (too bad because some of it's killer).
> he came up in the era where you just did not play your own stuff. It just wasn't done. You played a week straight in a club doing top 40 stuff. That was just the environment. But also, his priorities were different. He was playing in part to support a family.
> 
> The musical environment I came up in fostered original creativity. No one looked down on anyone who did covers (over the years I know I've done plenty) but writing and performing my own material was a big part of my formative years as a player, and just as important as learning any guitar technique....and it continues to be.
> Money has never much of a motivator in my years of playing...I've never had to play to support myself, it's never been a job as such (I was a sound tech for 5 yrs though). Perhaps that also plays a role in my opinion on writing.
> 
> All this stuff has to be factored into reasons why people either start writing right away or wait until they're 50 to start doing it...or never do it at all.....the environment that we all came up in plays a huge role in our outlooks on this.
> 
> Anyway, keep it up, this is finally getting interesting.



Interestingly enough, money is not a factor in my view that playing covers is among the best ways to develop your writing skills. I was a full time musician for many years and spent more than eleven years on the road playing six and seven nights a week from coast to coast.

Now that I earn a living in industry, I'm able to play exactly the songs I want including a mix of originals and covers. I can be selective about which gigs I accept and which ones I decline.

For me it's all about fun, pride and music, not about money.


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## hoser

Milkman said:


> Interestingly enough, money is not a factor in my view that playing covers is among the best ways to develop your writing skills. I was a full time musician for many years and spent more than eleven years on the road playing six and seven nights a week from coast to coast.
> 
> Now that I earn a living in industry, I'm able to play exactly the songs I want including a mix of originals and covers. I can be selective about which gigs I accept and which ones I decline.
> 
> For me it's all about fun, pride and music, not about money.


*sigh*

once again you pick a small part of a post and unecessarily elaborate. My post is about the different environments and circumstances that exist and how they shape musicians in their ways of thinking. Money was just an example of one of the differences between my father's experience and my own. It was really a minute point.

Anyway, if you were a full time musician, money was important at some point.


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## Mahogany Martin

“Do we really need to do covers?”

Most of us here agree that doing covers will help develop as a musician in several ways; it will improve musical knowledge and proficiency, it will allow to play out in bars and pubs which will in turns, allow to work on stage presence and confidence and will even give you some extra G.A.S. money.

But let’s give this thread a different spin for a second and let’s assume that some proficiency, stage presence and confidence etc is something that has already been acquired to some degree. Or in other words, that someone has done the covers, played out and so on already but would like to branch out. And let’s add to this that we all have to work, go to school etc and that time often becomes an issue. Someone might want to focus his or her precious spare time *working* on originals.

Is that even feasible? Are there enough outlets that will allow to test this new material live? How about we take a pulse from everyone around this beautiful country and tell us if there are any venues in your city or town that will book you playing originals only? I’m guessing that if you do, that you will have to share the night with a few other bands? And how often let’s say in a month would you be able to play live? I think that this in itself might help answer the original question in the first place. So, depending on what everyone tells us about the scene of “originals” venues, someone might want to focus on developing and promoting his or her original material (or not!).  

For some reason, I doubt that there is enough support out there for someone or a band to go far *fast* enough to hop on the wave and ride it to success. Would you have to travel to play often enough? Are you willing and able to do so? Do you have the income (or are you rich enough) to be able to see your project through? Could you afford to record and produce 8, 10,12 or whatever amount of songs and mass-produce it in order to use it as a label-shopping tool? CAN YOU DRAW A CROWD?

All of a sudden, covers are starting to look good huh? . Did you say money? EXPOSURE? ... If you go for playing covers and introducing your stuff here and there, just make sure that you keep your focus on your stuff so that you don't become just another cover band. :rockon:


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## Mahogany Martin

jroberts said:


> Good post, MM.


Thank you




hoser said:


> But is that because _you_ felt the songs weren't "there" or because of a cultural thing or the musical environment you came up in. You're close to my father's age, and he's kind of the same way regarding originals....it's almost like writing and performing your own stuff is an alien thing....incomprehensible almost....


Hoser, I have had a long but brief and interesting *career* as a drummer. You can’t really call it a career because the money I made from it, I spent way more on equipment, lessons, heads, sticks, rehearsal space etc. But I met a lot of musicians along the way and a lot of these guys considered themselves *working man* from early on. Maybe your dad was one of these guys. Maybe what mattered to him the most was to have a *balanced* life with a wife, kids (a band somewhere in there) and a triple-car garage filled to the rafters with boxes and crap that didn’t fit in the house and that he became obsessed with “cleaning it up one day”... ?  Ok ok.

It may have bothered me sometimes that one guy in the band may have thought of this forming band as another potential *job*. “Why rehearse for this stuff (covers) ? Let just get out there and play.” Maybe the rest of us believed that we had some sort of *chemistry* and that we wanted to deliver great covers and have fun doing it and that if we did this so well that our originals would be smokin’!


It happens all over and all the time and there’s nothing you can do about it. A band is made up of people. And people come with their own agenda and timetables. The only thing that can change this is pretty much whether you have what it takes or not. Do you have what it takes to ignite *working men* (or working women :wink: ) along your path for them to believe in you and back you up?

If you do, ‘to hell with the covers!’... Well, I’m not really that good with numbers but I sense that the odds are pretty high for that to happen. And in the meantime, what do you want to do with this mess? I’m not crappin’ on youth and it’s *cockiness* here, but sooner or later, the body snatchers are going to find you out and it’ll get harder and harder not to fall asleep.


Those who wish to be
Must put aside the alienation
Get on with the fascination
The real relation
The underlying theme

...

All the world’s indeed a stage
And we are merely players
Performers and portrayers
Each another’s audience
Outside the gilded cage...


Martin


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## elindso

Do we really need to do covers? 

If you want to make a meager living playing yes you do.

It seems to me that the question has been taken a little out of context.

Anyone can write songs and sing them, but if you want to sing them and get paid, they had better be good and you better be connected. There are tons of people with the training already doing just that for next to nothing

Now I'm not asking or telling anyone where they should go to School or whether they should know i iv v.
If though they have no musical training chances are the songs will be crap musically. I won't listen, and I suspect I'm not alone. Do what ever you want, but don't expect to sell it. It could happen. More likely than not it won't, even with all the training and help. A sad truth.

Now don't get all mad and beat me up. That's just the way I see things.

Don't let me stop you. Get out and prove me wrong. It happens all the time.


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## hoser

Mahogany Martin said:


> How about we take a pulse from everyone around this beautiful country and tell us if there are any venues in your city or town that will book you playing originals only?


yep, many.



> I’m guessing that if you do, that you will have to share the night with a few other bands?


depends on how much material you have or if you can draw enough of a crowd on your own. The last band I played in, we had 1 opener.



> And how often let’s say in a month would you be able to play live?


In a city the size of the one I live in, playing more than once or twice a month would be overkill imo. Wouldn't give you much time to write and rehearse new material either.




> Would you have to travel to play often enough?


what is "often enough"?



> Do you have the income (or are you rich enough) to be able to see your project through? Could you afford to record and produce 8, 10,12 or whatever amount of songs and mass-produce it in order to use it as a label-shopping tool? CAN YOU DRAW A CROWD?


Use the money the band makes from shows to record, if that's one of your goals. Usually the way it worked in bands I've been in is if we hae something we want to do (record, get merch done, tour, etc) then we save what we make. It's pretty simple.


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## david henman

hoser said:


> But is that because _you_ felt the songs weren't "there" or because of a cultural thing or the musical environment you came up in.


...over the years i have written a few songs that were (and still are) "there", but haven't felt that my songwriting had, in general, matured to a level where i was ready to make my mark, as it were.

i DO feel that way now. i'm enjoying the richest creative period of my entire life. i will have a cd of home demos finished in time for christmas. world domination should follow shortly thereafter.

-dh


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## david henman

Mahogany Martin said:


> How about we take a pulse from everyone around this beautiful country and tell us if there are any venues in your city or town that will book you playing originals only?


...practically none, if by that question you imply getting paid.

this is where your own motivation will have to kick in. as a classic rock cover band, i get the bookings, show up, and play to the best of my abilities, nothing more.

however, now that i am committed to making the transition from cover band to original act, the onus is definitely on me to give the club owner a damn good reason to book my band, and pay us. its going to take a lot of work, especially in the pr department. and it won't stop there. once the band gets on stage, it won't be simply a matter of playing the tunes. we will have to go the extra distance to make it an experience, paying close attention to stage production, pacing, lighting etc etc etc etc etc etc...

i don't imagine for a minute that it will be easy.

-dh


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## hoser

In the original circuit (where I live anyway), usually (if it's a regular club gig) you take the door. It becomes your responsibility to promote yourself. sometimes you might get a gauruntee but that's usually for new years, a festival or opening for a touring act.


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## hoser

david henman said:


> ...over the years i have written a few songs that were (and still are) "there", but haven't felt that my songwriting had, in general, matured to a level where i was ready to make my mark, as it were.
> 
> i DO feel that way now. i'm enjoying the richest creative period of my entire life. i will have a cd of home demos finished in time for christmas. world domination should follow shortly thereafter.
> 
> -dh


cool, just wondering because like I said before, in my dad's scene it was basically unfathomable to write and perform original material. just curious if it was a local attitude or more of a universal one during that time period.


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## david henman

hoser said:


> cool, just wondering because like I said before, in my dad's scene it was basically unfathomable to write and perform original material. just curious if it was a local attitude or more of a universal one during that time period.


...well, back in the late 60s, we tried playing originals at our gigs in nova scotia, and all we got back was "hey, play something we know!" so, in 1970, we re-located to montreal. quebec audiences, especially the french, could not get enough of the originals.

vive la difference, oui?

-dh


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## Milkman

If we want to do a gig playing only or at least primarily originals, we generally have to throw an event and sell tickets.

We do this two or three times a year and feature several bands on the bill.

We always make much more money than with a typical cover gig, but it's not something that you can do every month, at least in my market.


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## david henman

Milkman said:


> If we want to do a gig playing only or at least primarily originals, we generally have to throw an event and sell tickets.
> We do this two or three times a year and feature several bands on the bill.
> We always make much more money than with a typical cover gig, but it's not something that you can do every month, at least in my market.


...despite the pros and cons, thats a great idea! ya got me thinkin', dairyguy!

-dh


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## slowhand

I was just discussing this topic with our singer. I think the bottom line is that it really depends on the venue you play at, what you want out of your career and how much your willing to risk.

There are some good books available that can help you out. 
Succeeding in Music by John Stienberg and a whole lot of others I don't remember the name right now...it's late...me go to bed soon.

Anyways, don't let anybody tell you what to do. Make your own thing happen and stick with the winners. You may wind up winning.

BTW I tend to agree thta the faster you get out gigging, the better. You're not playing (at least I'm not) for other musicians. Rock and roll isn't a musical convention. It's supposed to be fun, exciting, and exhilirating. When someone says, don't go out and play, it is cowardly.

Good luck!
Greg
www.sindicationmusic.com


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## elindso

"You're not playing (at least I'm not) for other musicians."

I agree there. The guitar gunslinger thing has always turned me off.

It should be about music and music (at least in my mind) isn't a sport.:food-smiley-004:


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## david henman

elindso said:


> It should be about music and music (at least in my mind) isn't a sport.:food-smiley-004:


...which is why you'll never catch me watching contests like american idol, which are basically televised karaoke.

-dh


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## Coustfan'01

Like the other guys said , it's a lot easier to start doing gigs with covers , the people and booking are more receptive . Then you start adding originals while getting your name out there.


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## elindso

Coustfan'01 said:


> Like the other guys said , it's a lot easier to start doing gigs with covers , the people and booking are more receptive . Then you start adding originals while getting your name out there.


That's what it is about.:smile: 

Unless you're playing the Indie scene in a major city. 

Expect to need a day job though.:smile:


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## Luke98

Covers are a pretty necessary part of local music scene's. The people playing at the bar's are almost always doing covers.


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## geezer

I just thought that I'd add an observation.I notice lots of metal bands on the west coast that do (almost) all of their own tunes and get booked in bars/clubs that cater particularly to that style.They also rent halls with several other bands and put on their on shows.It seems in metal music the followers of that style expect bands are going to play their own shit.


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## david henman

...i think it comes down to this: if you are a cover band, with no other aspirations, then covers are what you should be doing, maybe throwing in an original now and then for fun.

but, if you have aspirations that go far beyond being a cover band, i think you are putting off the inevitable by playing a mix of covers and originals. when you're ready, make the transition and go for it.

i think rush started out as a led zep copy band, but quickly made the transition.

this comes from personal experience - i wish i could take back all those years i wasted playing covers.

-dh


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## bagpipe

david henman said:


> ...which is why you'll never catch me watching contests like american idol, which are basically televised karaoke.
> 
> -dh


 ... with much more talented singers than you'll see in any karaoke bar. I dont have any problem with people criticising the show, or the flawed voting system, or the PITA judges (other than Simon). However, by the time they eliminate most of the No Talent Ass Clowns (I just watched Office Space again), those remaining are the talented ones with great voices. If you watched the last series, Adam Lambert put a truly original spin on most of the covers that he did.


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## david henman

...i don't place much value on talent.

-dh


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## Guest

Your in the entertainment business. This said, if your songs and/or act still need work throwing in a cover or two might be a thought. Folks want to be entertained. You can entertain yourself somewhere else on your own time. If your songs do the trick by themselves then there is your answer.:wave:


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## lbrown1

bagpipe said:


> ... with much more talented singers than you'll see in any karaoke bar. I dont have any problem with people criticising the show, or the flawed voting system, or the PITA judges (other than Simon). However, by the time they eliminate most of the No Talent Ass Clowns (I just watched Office Space again), those remaining are the talented ones with great voices. If you watched the last series, Adam Lambert put a truly original spin on most of the covers that he did.


American Idol is fun to mock....it's a pretty corny show - BUT - man - could that Adam Lambert belt out a tune - holy CRAP!


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## bobb

FrogRick12 said:


> That's because it was a BAD song...don't feel bad.
> 
> I love this thread - I'm screaming at my computer screen!
> 
> My .02:
> 
> 1) ALL GREAT BANDS were cover bands (with very few exceptions)
> 
> 2) Don't play your originals right out of the box unless you are a graduate of Julliard or G.I.T.
> 
> 3) Don't play me your lame-ass, half-baked, no middle eight, can't-tell-what the-chorus-is, derivative, tone-deaf originals unless you know or are proficient in::
> 
> a) songwriting
> b) song structure
> c) audience entertaining
> d) playing or singing ability
> 
> All of which can learned by (wait for it)....
> 
> PLAYING COVERS!!


Probably one of the best posts yet.

A good song is a good song, a bad song is a bad song, period. Don't expect me to like your tunes just because you wrote them. I'll take a good cover over a bad original any day.

How many classical musicians play originals? Most only play covers that are a couple hundred years old. 9kkhhd


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## Rugburn

I recently attended a show that was billed as a "Neil Young Charity Event" at a local bar a couple of weeks ago. For a $10 cover charge two bands played Neil's "Zuma" and "On The Beach" albums. All the songs were played in the order they appear on the albums. It was an entertaining night of music and the bands played well. All proceeds went to charity. This for me is an exception. I normally can't get into local acts that play covers and avoid them. Sadly, most people in bars, while busy texting, drinking. talking and eating, insist on hearing familiar tunes wafting in the background. For years I regularly attended the Montreal Jazz Festival. What a pleasure to watch a show at a bar where everybody shuts up and *listens* to the music. My wife and I cringe when we walk into a bar and there's a guy in the corner playing acoustic radio friendly crap and everyone in the place is oblivious to their performance. If that's what you like to do.....great, but it would personally break my heart to be a part of something like that.

Shawn


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## bagpipe

david henman said:


> ...i don't place much value on talent.
> 
> -dh


I cant decide if this sarcasm or not. So talent isn't one of the factors you consider when you're putting together a band, or trying to decide if you should work with someone or not?


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## david henman

bagpipe said:


> I cant decide if this sarcasm or not. So talent isn't one of the factors you consider when you're putting together a band, or trying to decide if you should work with someone or not?


...i am dead serious. 

i have very little use for talent. its as common as corn. and far less useful.

dedication? desire? passion? work ethic? professionalism?

those qualities impress me, big time.

-dh


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## david henman

...by the way, i can personally attest to the fact that april wine played zero covers songs - not one - until long after they became successful.

-dh


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## david henman

...one of the primary reasons i started my own band was so that i could make the rules.

rule # one: there are no rules

rules # two: see rule # one

-dh



FrogRick12 said:


> That's because it was a BAD song...don't feel bad.
> 
> I love this thread - I'm screaming at my computer screen!
> 
> My .02:
> 
> 1) ALL GREAT BANDS were cover bands (with very few exceptions)
> 
> 2) Don't play your originals right out of the box unless you are a graduate of Julliard or G.I.T.
> 
> 3) Don't play me your lame-ass, half-baked, no middle eight, can't-tell-what the-chorus-is, derivative, tone-deaf originals unless you know or are proficient in::
> 
> a) songwriting
> b) song structure
> c) audience entertaining
> d) playing or singing ability
> 
> All of which can learned by (wait for it)....
> 
> PLAYING COVERS!!


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## Rugburn

david henman said:


> ...i am dead serious.
> 
> i have very little use for talent. its as common as corn. and far less useful.
> 
> dedication? desire? passion? work ethic? professionalism?
> 
> those qualities impress me, big time.
> 
> -dh


Interesting, I have little use for the things you mention in a musical context unless there's talent behind it. Otherwise you end up with something like The Osmonds. They were dedicated, passionate, professional, worked hard, but they sucked to high heaven.


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## david henman

Rugburn said:


> Interesting, I have little use for the things you mention in a musical context unless there's talent behind it. Otherwise you end up with something like The Osmonds. They were dedicated, passionate, professional, worked hard, but they sucked to high heaven.


...they "sucked", did they.

:smile:

the osmonds had talent, dude.

you may not have liked the way they used it. 

but, they could sing, and sing well.

and, they were very successful.

-dh


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## david henman

nkjanssen said:


> They must have all graduated from G.I.T or Julliard, then.



...oh, absolutely!!!

sdsre


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## Andy

I love playing covers, and not because of any deficiency in my songwriting skills. 

Learning a song note-for-note and playing it that way gets boring quickly, but taking the basic skeleton of someone else's song and making it my own is just as engaging as writing an original song, IMO.


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## Guest

Rugburn said:


> Interesting, I have little use for the things you mention in a musical context unless there's talent behind it. Otherwise you end up with something like The Osmonds. They were dedicated, passionate, professional, worked hard, but they sucked to high heaven.





david henman said:


> ...they "sucked", did they.
> 
> :smile:


My cousin was a big fan in the '70's. When we visit, that was
all she played on the record player. I liked what I heard.
And yes, I never admitted this to my friends.


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## Mooh

Andy said:


> I love playing covers, and not because of any deficiency in my songwriting skills.
> 
> Learning a song note-for-note and playing it that way gets boring quickly, but taking the basic skeleton of someone else's song and making it my own is just as engaging as writing an original song, IMO.


Well my friend, the difference is that you have the skill and ability, you study and apply the knowledge. Creative ears. The same can't necessarily be said for the average cover band. 

I hate hearing note-for-note covers. Give me an interpretation, improvisation, to keep me interested. I play covers too, but I'm not even remotely interested in sounding like someone else. There is a place in the entertainment world for direct cover bands, but it's not a place I want to go.

Peace, Mooh.


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## shoretyus

Mooh said:


> I hate hearing note-for-note covers. Give me an interpretation, improvisation, to keep me interested. I play covers too, but I'm not even remotely interested in sounding like someone else. There is a place in the entertainment world for direct cover bands, but it's not a place I want to go.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


+1 on that mooh. I like hearing somebody's style applied to someone else's tune.


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## david henman

Andy said:


> I love playing covers, and not because of any deficiency in my songwriting skills.
> 
> Learning a song note-for-note and playing it that way gets boring quickly, but taking the basic skeleton of someone else's song and making it my own is just as engaging as writing an original song, IMO.


...that's another story entirely. i have always loved taking a cover song and putting my own spin on it.

always will.

in one band i was in when i first moved to toronto, we had a rule: no one was allowed to listen to the original version of any cover song we played. we just went on vague "memory".

-dh


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## Rugburn

david henman said:


> ...i don't place much value on talent.
> 
> -dh


 Well "Dude", do you just change your tune whenever it suits your contrary nature, or what?!? The Osmonds are a great example of talentless mediocrity. They owe the Jackson 5 at least half the money they made. "One Bad Apple"? If that floats your boat great. I'm not much for the J5, but they had *talent*. The only reason The Osmonds went anywhere, was because the closet racists back in the day preferred white kids singing and dancing to *black* pop music on TV. But hey, I'm glad you were able to chime in about their "talents". Perhaps, you *do* place more value on talent then you previously thought. How else could someone stick up for these glorified "mouseketeers" if not for the raw talent at their core?


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## david henman

Rugburn said:


> Well "Dude", do you just change your tune whenever it suits your contrary nature, or what?!? The Osmonds are a great example of talentless mediocrity. They owe the Jackson 5 at least half the money they made. "One Bad Apple"? If that floats your boat great. I'm not much for the J5, but they had *talent*. The only reason The Osmonds went anywhere, was because the closet racists back in the day preferred white kids singing and dancing to *black* pop music on TV. But hey, I'm glad you were able to chime in about their "talents". Perhaps, you *do* place more value on talent then you previously thought. How else could someone stick up for these glorified "mouseketeers" if not for the raw talent at their core?


...dood, the osmonds were, and still are, awesome! they kick serious butt, dood! they are the reason i decided to pick up a guitar and take over the world!

did i mention that they were good lookin', too?

:bow:

-dh


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## lbrown1

it's likely more because a band to me and the rest of my bandmates is a hobby - we take it seriously (well, some of us do - see other thread about lack of commitment) but we have jobs and kids.........

covers is our thing.....note for note is tedious and boring...so we just play and see what happens....if nothing good happens - we toss it and never play it again.

we also find that covers that we've done 100 times sound different every time - mood, environment, audience - whatever causes it I don't know - but I like it


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## Krule Music Group

From my experience, it is alwasy good to do covers, if you want to do an all original, that's fine. but the audience might not know your songs. 
If you do an original set, throw in 1 or 2 covers. Fans know the songs, and especially if you do a killer version, it sticks in their minds. It also gives the band an adrenaline rush, when fans wake up and notice, and cheer you on etc... 

Play it your way, just my 2 cents. 

http://krulemusicgroup.blogspot.com


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## jimihendrix

aye carumba...this post reminds me of "the bickersons"...look them up...

i was in a tribute band...my friends are in tribute bands...meaning...we pick one famous band...ie) ac/dc or lynyrd skynyrd...and play strictly the songs from said band's catalogue...exactly as they were recorded...no originals...

there is a niche for tribute bands...but a BIG WASTE OF TIME/TALENT...!!!...

they are strictly moneymakers...for the bar owner...!!!...

i've asked countless tribute band members if they write their own originals...

shockingly...their response is...why should we...???...we make good money playing the same songs over and over again...

they're riding on the coat tails of famous musicians that have already written proven hit songs...where is the talent in that...???...

do they get satisfaction in hearing the audience sing along and dance to songs that they have no right to take credit for...???...

when the gig is over...does the audience go out and buy a tribute band's cd and merchandise...???...does the band hop in their limo and head off to cool afterparties...???...um...in a word...NO...!!!...

my personal goals are/were to write/record/perform original songs that i can be proud of...hopefully a "hit" song or anthem that fans would embrace...

and...i wouldn't mind retiring and living off big fat royalty cheques...!!!...

led zeppelin played covers...although they stole the credit from willy dixon

whereas black sabbath wrote incredible originals...

both bands are world famous...but i have more respect for sabbath...for taking the "hard road"...

in answer to your question...covers are a necessary evil to get your foot in the door...as your "career" progresses...with each passing gig...add one original and subtract a cover...until your sets end up being solely YOUR material...you'll be way more satisfied and proud of YOUR songs than you'll ever be playing someone else's song...

peace...:smile:


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## david henman

...this has not been my experience. i discovered that playing even ONE cover song completely confuses (suburban/rural) audiences. they immediately assume that you know every song ever recorded, and don't want to know about your original material.

urban audiences, on the other hand, are lukewarm to cover songs, but hugely enthusiastic about original songs.

-dh




Krule Music Group said:


> From my experience, it is alwasy good to do covers, if you want to do an all original, that's fine. but the audience might not know your songs.
> If you do an original set, throw in 1 or 2 covers. Fans know the songs, and especially if you do a killer version, it sticks in their minds. It also gives the band an adrenaline rush, when fans wake up and notice, and cheer you on etc...
> 
> Play it your way, just my 2 cents.
> 
> http://krulemusicgroup.blogspot.com


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## jimsz

david henman said:


> ...i am dead serious.
> 
> i have very little use for talent. its as common as corn. and far less useful.
> 
> dedication? desire? passion? work ethic? professionalism?
> 
> those qualities impress me, big time.
> 
> -dh


Very interesting David. I found that those whom I've worked with over the years certainly made up any shortcomings if they possessed those characteristics. I couldn't agree with you more, yet I never really put my finger on it until reading your post. Thanks.


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## Starbuck

david henman said:


> ...this has not been my experience. i discovered that playing even ONE cover song completely confuses (suburban/rural) audiences. they immediately assume that you know every song ever recorded, and don't want to know about your original material.
> 
> urban audiences, on the other hand, are lukewarm to cover songs, but hugely enthusiastic about original songs.
> 
> -dh


That's an intersting remark, do you NOT think that may be due to the fact that in an Urban setting, you have access to more variety? If you want blues you go here, rock here, ect, whereas the smalltown bar owner may have a more diverse crowd to please and need a cover band to keep the crowds happy?


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## Jim DaddyO

Only my 2 cents, but I think it would be easier to count "big name" bands that didn't do a cover of something. At one point in time, you heard someone playing that inspired you to pick up a guitar and start to learn how to play. Everyone was inspired by someone. I like covers, done in an original way. I don't think it is a bad idea to play something that inspired you to start/continue playing and show some of your roots.


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## Skndstry

Funny how in rock music there's a stigma to playing covers, but in blues, jazz and classical it's pretty much standard. 

[/QUOTE]


Might have done this wrong because I'm new here, but anyway, that statement resonated with me, because it is so true.

I play mostly bluegrass and old-timey country in my combo. We do tons of covers. But it's okay, because we do stuff WE LOVE! And people we play for (which ain't many - we're selfish that way) totally love those songs. 

The "rock" thing is a different animal altogether, because popular music audiences are fickle, and they often don't really care about the music. A broad statement, I know, but it comes from years of experience, both as a musician and radio personality. 

There is a way around it. Years ago I was in a band that did both originals and covers. We did do some popular stuff that people could dance to, but I think the key is to do songs YOU like. (We never did anything that was a current "radio hit".) 

We did a lot of album tracks - stuff we WANTED to learn, and we learned it the way WE wanted to learn it much of the time. Not so it wasn't recognizable, but so that we could stay interested. 

For the most part, this went over well with our audiences, and people started to come to hear both our originals AND cool music they may or may not have ever been exposed to. 

So we kind of managed to serve both masters. The club owners couldn't get pissed at us for not doing covers, and we were happy. 

At least that way, it doesn't sap your creativity or will to soldier on, and let's face it, sometimes that will is all you've got. 

The other sneaky way we got our originals in when you had a particularly cranky club owner or manager was to simply say it was a "lost" or "obscure" b-side track by a band whose name was recognizable but whose music wasn't necessarily that well known, and whose style was somewhat similar to yours (blues rock, metal, whatever.) 

Some people might call it unethical, and some might get pissed at not getting the recognition for their own tunes, but it actually became quite an inside joke in the band and with our fans.


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## david henman

Starbuck said:


> That's an intersting remark, do you NOT think that may be due to the fact that in an Urban setting, you have access to more variety? If you want blues you go here, rock here, ect, whereas the smalltown bar owner may have a more diverse crowd to please and need a cover band to keep the crowds happy?


...my sense is that urban audiences are simply far more enlightened, at least musically. in the city corwe, no one EVER walks up to the band and asks "hey, you guys do any zep/ozzie/skynyrd?"

suburban and rural audiences just don't want to know. they are not in the least bit adventurous or curious about new music.

that is a generalization, of course, and restricted to night club audiences.

one of the main reasons we left nova scotia in 1970 was because every time we played an original song we were met with loud choruses of "hey, buddy, play something we know!"

-dh


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## david henman

...one thing i learned quickly when i was "sneaking" originals in among the covers: NEVER, EVER announce that you are playing an original!!!

it just triggers everyone's built-in prejudice.

-dh





Skndstry said:


> Funny how in rock music there's a stigma to playing covers, but in blues, jazz and classical it's pretty much standard.



Might have done this wrong because I'm new here, but anyway, that statement resonated with me, because it is so true.

I play mostly bluegrass and old-timey country in my combo. We do tons of covers. But it's okay, because we do stuff WE LOVE! And people we play for (which ain't many - we're selfish that way) totally love those songs. 

The "rock" thing is a different animal altogether, because popular music audiences are fickle, and they often don't really care about the music. A broad statement, I know, but it comes from years of experience, both as a musician and radio personality. 

There is a way around it. Years ago I was in a band that did both originals and covers. We did do some popular stuff that people could dance to, but I think the key is to do songs YOU like. (We never did anything that was a current "radio hit".) 

We did a lot of album tracks - stuff we WANTED to learn, and we learned it the way WE wanted to learn it much of the time. Not so it wasn't recognizable, but so that we could stay interested. 

For the most part, this went over well with our audiences, and people started to come to hear both our originals AND cool music they may or may not have ever been exposed to. 

So we kind of managed to serve both masters. The club owners couldn't get pissed at us for not doing covers, and we were happy. 

At least that way, it doesn't sap your creativity or will to soldier on, and let's face it, sometimes that will is all you've got. 

The other sneaky way we got our originals in when you had a particularly cranky club owner or manager was to simply say it was a "lost" or "obscure" b-side track by a band whose name was recognizable but whose music wasn't necessarily that well known, and whose style was somewhat similar to yours (blues rock, metal, whatever.) 

Some people might call it unethical, and some might get pissed at not getting the recognition for their own tunes, but it actually became quite an inside joke in the band and with our fans.[/QUOTE]


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## cheezyridr

back in the day when i was playin bars, we were pretty popular in our little city. we did mostly covers but we did 'em our way. it was what we were known for. also + 1 on the skynyrd/zep request thing. you would never believe me if i told you how many times we were asked to play "that song you guys wrote" which was actually funk 49. it used to blow me away that people had no clue who the james gang was but knew of joe walsh because of the radio. no one had a clue who the ventures were. we refused to play freebird, paranoid, or smoke on the water, or ANYTHING that was ever on a george thorogood record, even though he was a local boy.


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## lbrown1

cheezyridr said:


> back in the day when i was playin bars, we were pretty popular in our little city. we did mostly covers but we did 'em our way. it was what we were known for. also + 1 on the skynyrd/zep request thing. you would never believe me if i told you how many times we were asked to play "that song you guys wrote" which was actually funk 49. it used to blow me away that people had no clue who the james gang was but knew of joe walsh because of the radio. no one had a clue who the ventures were. we refused to play freebird, paranoid, or smoke on the water, or ANYTHING that was ever on a george thorogood record, even though he was a local boy.


maybe fodder for a new thread......cover songs that you'd just refuse to play under any circumstances

for me...Bob Seager - Old Time rock and Roll


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## Skndstry

Crowbar. Oh What a Feeling. Worst song ever - that I can think of right this moment.


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## zontar

lbrown1 said:


> maybe fodder for a new thread......cover songs that you'd just refuse to play under any circumstances
> 
> for me...Bob Seager - Old Time rock and Roll


I would agree with that--I've never heard a good live version of that song--it also sounds lame--even when Bob does it. But then I also got sick of it from hearing it at many wedding dances, and seeing middle aged and senior citizen men who can't dance getting all excited at the song (I can't dance either--but I don't show that off.)




Skndstry said:


> Crowbar. Oh What a Feeling. Worst song ever - that I can think of right this moment.


I love that song, and having met Kelly Jay, well he has some great stories to tell. (I doubt he'd remember me though, so no name dropping intended.)

[youtube=Option]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yay4YMyL8U0[/youtube]


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## peter benn

There may be a continuum between stereotypical covers and obscure ones. But there's a time investment to the discovery process.

I do believe that some obscure covers can stand on their own even with an unfamiliar audience. That is, some songs are inherently better written than others.

Just a thought. Quite a thread.


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## Jim DaddyO

peter benn said:


> There may be a continuum between stereotypical covers and obscure ones. But there's a time investment to the discovery process.
> 
> I do believe that some obscure covers can stand on their own even with an unfamiliar audience. That is, some songs are inherently better written than others.
> 
> Just a thought. Quite a thread.


Yes, I thought it would get some interesting results. I like some of the songs listed, but I'm sure that there are songs that just get on some players last nerve to do. It's all just personal preferance and opinion, and meant to be all in fun. Did anyone put down "Girl from Ipanema" yet...lol


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## cheezyridr

Jim DaddyO said:


> Did anyone put down "Girl from Ipanema" yet...lol


do people actually still listen to that?


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