# The dreaded "true bypass pop"



## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Over my years of trying numerous pedals there have been a handful that suffer from this malady. I purchased one recently and I've tried everything outside of taking it apart and mod'ing it or selling it, to fix it. I've changed cables, changed it's position in the chain, tried it just by itself, all to no avail. I can obviously, I think, get around the issue by using a switcher but are there any other options? I really like the pedal and would like to keep it. Tried to contact the company but no luck so far.

Also tried to buy a loop master but the seller seems to have disappeared.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

What make and model of pedal is it?

@mhammer will hopefully see this and comment.

You *might* only need a resistor soldered into the circuit

Good Luck with it.


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## DaddyDog (Apr 21, 2017)

I found the Topanga reverb did the same. Turns out there's a switch inside to go to buffer mode... and that's their resolution for the pop.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Many times, though not ALWAYS, the pop is not from _that _pedal, but from what comes after it. I refer to this as "pedal ventriloquism", since one pedal appears to "throw its voice" to another.

Many pedals that use electronic switching internally have an unterminated input capacitor. Assuming nothing that gets plugged into it will ever be disconnected mid-tune/mid-set, that strategy works just fine, and minimizes loading effects. The problem arises when such pedals are preceded by true bypass devices, whether a loop-selector or another pedal. When you hit those stompswitches, that input capacitor in the e-switched pedal is momentarily disconnected then reconnected, producing the pop. One characteristic that can identify such a scenario is that if you stop playing for a bit, and keeping pressing the TB stompswitch on and off a few times, the pop will eventually disappear as the errant input cap gets drained off with each reconnection.

It's not the ONLY potential source of switch-popping, but as more and more players combine lots of different brands and kinds of pedals on their board - big-name, boutique, digital, analog, etc. - the odds of a TB-followed-by-e-switched pedal scenario increase.

The solution is to simply stick a 1M-2.2M resistor between the hot and ground lugs of the e-switched pedal to provide an uninterruptible drain/bleedoff path for that pedal's input capacitor that will be unaffected by whatever precedes it. That range of values should have no discernible impact on tone.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

_Many times, though not ALWAYS, the pop is not from that pedal, but from what comes after it. I refer to this as "pedal ventriloquism", since one pedal appears to "throw its voice" to another._

*Yep, that's why I tried all the steps listed in the OP. Including this pedal stand alone.*

_One characteristic that can identify such a scenario is that if you stop playing for a bit, and keeping pressing the TB stomp switch on and off a few times, the pop will eventually disappear as the errant input cap gets drained off with each re-connection.
_
*First thing I tried with no success.*

_The solution is to simply stick a 1M-2.2M resistor between the hot and ground lugs of the e-switched pedal to provide an uninterruptible drain/bleed off path for that pedal's input capacitor that will be unaffected by whatever precedes it. That range of values should have no discernible impact on tone.
_
*Could you be a little more specific please, electricity is a black art  Would this be done on the switch or across the input and output jacks? I can live with the fact this is likely a very stupid question *


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

greco said:


> What make and model of pedal is it?
> 
> @mhammer will hopefully see this and comment.
> 
> ...


PAL 959.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Okey dokey. I can't see much technical info that would shed any light, and haven't found any gutshots. From the outside, the stompswitch would appear to be the usual hard click type. Not unless they've located a source of soft-touch switches to actuate a relay, and they merely look like the hard-click type.

Another possibility is the amp itself. Is it possible the amp itself has a "hanging input cap"?

Alternatively, just how bright is the status LED on the pedal? Sometimes an LED can draw enough current to create a pop. That is, the audio circuit is fine on its own, but the turning on of the LED causes an audible artifact. One way to identify if that's the culprit is to simply desolder one of the LED leads from the stompswitch. If the pop disappears when the LED is out of circuit, then that subcircuit is the culprit.

Jack Orman has some good ideas about curing it here: AMZ - LED Popping


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Okey dokey. I can't see much technical info that would shed any light, and haven't found any gutshots. From the outside, the stompswitch would appear to be the usual hard click type. Not unless they've located a source of soft-touch switches to actuate a relay, and they merely look like the hard-click type.
> 
> Another possibility is the amp itself. Is it possible the amp itself has a "hanging input cap"?
> 
> ...


I'll post some gut shots and try it with a couple of amps to rule that out. I "think" I already did that but I'll make sure. First up is lunch however 

Thanks for taking the time.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

No problem. No rush. I'm headed out in 5 minutes to meet up with my sister at CityFolk to see MonkeyJunk and Whitehorse today. Won't be back on line until later in the evening.

Honestly, you try and get some quality soldering time in and _everything_ gets in the way!


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

That's a pedal or an inline cable someone could sell.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

To quote Ian Anderson "Nothing Is Easy", including getting good pics. looks like there is a small switch pcb board mounted to the switch. Hopefully you can make this out.

There is a ribbon cable connecting the main board to the switch board.

The pedal only "pops" when engaging the pedal, not disengaging.

Tried 2 other amps, same issue.

With either volume or gain on pedal rolled completely off there is no pop.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Back from the festival. Man oh man, Luke Doucet knows what a Gretsch is for.

But, on the topic. Thanks for the gutshot Dave. It's clearly a standard 3PDT switch, used exactly as I might use it. Don't make too much of the little board it comes on. A number of places sell those little boards, as a way of easing the installation of switches, using ribbon cable.

Officially, those switches are break-before-make, which means there will always be a brief moment where the pedal circuit, and switch, is disconnected from what comes before and after it.

Assuming the source of the pop is not within the pedal itself, the question for me then becomes "Is there anything it might be plugged into or that plugs into it, that might have an unterminated capacitor?". Again, that assumes that the PAL 959 itself has its input and output capacitors properly terminated with a resistor, so they can bleed off any residual charge to ground.

The fact that the pop occurs when you engage it, but not disengaging, and that it seems independent of the amp used, suggest that the pedal itself might have a "floating" input cap. The maker/s seem to have gone to a fair amount of trouble to make a decent product, so I'm reluctant to assume they have such a floating cap. That said, if you have the gear and confidence, you can try the following.

There are a few ways to wire up a 3PDT switch for true bypass, but the most commonly used is this one below.









- use a meter to identify which of the switch pins/lugs takes the signal from the input jack, and which two switch lugs are directly connected to each other as per the "link". That will help you to identify which switch lug is the one that goes to the input of the circuit without having to take the whole damn thing apart (and chase the stupid washer that fell out and rolled under the bench). If you can, temporarily solder a 1M resistor (or even 470k, if push comes to shove) from that _circuit-input_ lug to ground. *IF* it was an unterminated input that is causing the popping, then that would cure it. And if the problem lies elsewhere, then you can simply remove that added resistor, and go back to square one. Naturally, if you have wires with alligator clips, then I'm sure you'd prefer to "install" the added resistor with those, and leave the board pristine.

I'll await your feedback, and we can take it from there.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

(duplicate)


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Thanks for the nicely detailed info Mark. I'm just looking for continuity to identify the circuit? I'll need to dig around, or buy, a resister so it may be awhile before i get to it. I assume I'm looking for something like this?

As a matter of interest what value is there in determining the "link" if all I'm doing is taking something from the input connection on the switch to ground?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Yup, that's what it would look like. I don't know how available components are where you live (can't rely on Radio Shack anymore), and it makes no sense to pay shipping for a single resistor. HOWEVER, there is so much e-waste tossed out these days, and 1M is such a standard value, that if you don't already have one in your possession, pretty much anything left out at the curb by someone should be able to provide something you can "liberate".

And yes, as a minimally intrusive, non-destructive, first step to identify if the pedal itself contributes to the problem by virtue of the circuit, you ARE looking for tell-tale aspects of continuity (I hope your meter has a buzzer when that happens) that can let you know if the input is unterminated. The alternative is to take the whole damn thing apart and visually trace out the connections from the switch to the board. My suggestion is intended to save you from that misery. I hope it works.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Yup, that's what it would look like. I don't know how available components are where you live (can't rely on Radio Shack anymore), and it makes no sense to pay shipping for a single resistor. HOWEVER, there is so much e-waste tossed out these days, and 1M is such a standard value, that if you don't already have one in your possession, pretty much anything left out at the curb by someone should be able to provide something you can "liberate".
> 
> And yes, as a minimally intrusive, non-destructive, first step to identify if the pedal itself contributes to the problem by virtue of the circuit, you ARE looking for tell-tale aspects of continuity (I hope your meter has a buzzer when that happens) that can let you know if the input is unterminated. The alternative is to take the whole damn thing apart and visually trace out the connections from the switch to the board. My suggestion is intended to save you from that misery. I hope it works.


My meter does in fact buzz 

I have an old pedal that I will use to try and salvage a resistor. It was custom made for me many years ago by a guy on TGP but never did sound all that great, LOL.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Following with interest. 

Should I send the cheering section?








Maybe not...They might be too noisy and impede your concentration.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

greco said:


> Following with interest.
> 
> Should I send the cheering section?
> 
> ...


I'll take that chance.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Yup, that's what it would look like. I don't know how available components are where you live (can't rely on Radio Shack anymore), and it makes no sense to pay shipping for a single resistor. HOWEVER, there is so much e-waste tossed out these days, and 1M is such a standard value, that if you don't already have one in your possession, pretty much anything left out at the curb by someone should be able to provide something you can "liberate".
> 
> And yes, as a minimally intrusive, non-destructive, first step to identify if the pedal itself contributes to the problem by virtue of the circuit, you ARE looking for tell-tale aspects of continuity (I hope your meter has a buzzer when that happens) that can let you know if the input is unterminated. The alternative is to take the whole damn thing apart and visually trace out the connections from the switch to the board. My suggestion is intended to save you from that misery. I hope it works.


OK let's see if any of this will work ;-)

I found a loose resister that reads 0.473M on my meter. Colour bands are somewhat faint but appear to be Yellow, Purple, Yellow, Gold. It has nice long legs on it, similar to those in @greco 's post above. Will that work?

Running a continuity check from the positive of the input jack it looks like lower right corner terminal is the switch connection with the upper left and the one below it being linked. I get a "buzz" when touching any of those with the meter.

If all of that works for you I assume I run the resister from the lower right switch terminal to ground somewhere? Any preference on the ground connection? Output jack ground for instance?

This fuzzy image is the orientation referenced. Input jack on the left. (which is a stereo jack for some reason)


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

"WOMAN! KNICKERS!"


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

davetcan said:


> OK let's see if any of this will work ;-)
> 
> I found a loose resister that reads 0.473M on my meter. Colour bands are somewhat faint but appear to be Gold, Yellow, Purple, yellow. It has nice long legs on it, similar to those in @greco 's post above. Will that work?
> 
> ...


1) Yep, that's a 470k. A wee bit of loading, but not enough to make a big difference.
2) Note that, depending on the stompswitch setting - "on" or "bypass" - the continuity settings you get with your meter can be misleading. You may have done so without any prompting from me, but in case you either forgot or didn't know it would make a difference, you want to test for continuity with the switch in the bypass position/setting. The "link" shown in the diagram I posted will obviously have continuity. But the link will also show continuity with the middle lugs/contacts that go to the input and output jacks. That is, after all, how it provides a complete or "true" bypass. On the side opposite to the link side are the lugs/contacts that go to and from the circuit board. 

Instead of referring to left of this bottom right of that, lets refer to the drawing I posted. Going from left to right and top to bottom, we'll label the lugs:
1-2-3
4-5-6
7-8-9
In the drawing, signal comes into 4, and gets fed to 1->2->5-and out, in the bypass position. In the engeone thage position, signal comes into 4 and gets fed to 7, then the circuit, then comes back to 8, goes to 5, then out. 6 and 3 are used to connect power to the LED when the effect is engaged. The PCB shot you posted has them labelled 1-thru-6 but I can't tell what pins those numbers refer to so I'll rely on my numbering scheme here. I hope it doesn't confuse too much.

Using my numbering, if you get continuity from the input jack to either 7 or 8, then you've identified the input to the board. And yes, now that we've done that, connect the 470k from there to any easily-reachable ground in the pedal. Fingers crossed.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

If you want to add to that resistor value, you could (I think) add a couple of 500K pots in series with your 470K resistor...if you have any kicking around and if @mhammer agrees to the concept.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

"In the *engeone thage* position"

OK, what the hell is that, LOL.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

greco said:


> If you want to add to that resistor value, you could add a couple of 500K pots..if you have any kicking around.


I'm confused enough already thank you very much


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

davetcan said:


> "In the *engeone thage* position"
> 
> OK, what the hell is that, LOL.


I don't know either. And it's not because of *DRINK!! *Sometimes on my tablet, when I'm typing fast, it will decide to insert what I've typed somewhere else in the text, and I have to hunt to find it. This is clearly one of those times.

The para should read "_In the drawing, signal comes into 4, and gets fed to 1->2->5-and out, in the bypass position. In the engage position, signal comes into 4 and gets fed to 7, then the circuit, then comes back to 8, goes to 5, then out. 6 and 3 are used to connect power to the LED when the effect is engaged. The PCB shot you posted has them labelled 1-thru-6 but I can't tell what pins those numbers refer to so I'll rely on my numbering scheme here. I hope it doesn't confuse too much."_

I gotta go work on our new backyard shed while the temperature is still relatively low. I'll catch up with you later today.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

davetcan said:


> I'm confused enough already thank you very much


Sorry


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

mhammer said:


> I don't know either. And it's not because of *DRINK!! *Sometimes on my tablet, when I'm typing fast, it will decide to insert what I've typed somewhere else in the text, and I have to hunt to find it. This is clearly one of those times.
> 
> The para should read "_In the drawing, signal comes into 4, and gets fed to 1->2->5-and out, in the bypass position. In the engage position, signal comes into 4 and gets fed to 7, then the circuit, then comes back to 8, goes to 5, then out. 6 and 3 are used to connect power to the LED when the effect is engaged. The PCB shot you posted has them labelled 1-thru-6 but I can't tell what pins those numbers refer to so I'll rely on my numbering scheme here. I hope it doesn't confuse too much."_
> 
> I gotta go work on our new backyard shed while the temperature is still relatively low. I'll catch up with you later today.


LOL, I assumed that. Anyway I'm having trouble making the leap from your sketch to my reality. Let's try this. using the blurry image attached and numbering the lugs similar to yours

123
456
789

here is what I get.

With the switch in the off/bypass position and touching one of my meter leads to the positive terminal of the input jack I get continuity on #1, 6, and 9.

Same position but hitting the ground of the input jack I get continuity on #4, 5, 7, and 8.

With the switch in the engaged /on position and meter lead on the positive input jack I get connectivity on #1, 4, and 9.

Same position from ground i get connectivity on #2 and 5.

The LED contacts appear to be "off to the side" on the small board and don't have any connectivity showing up on the 9 switch terminals. I can't explain that one.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

So, it's quite possible that they did not use the switch-wiring diagram I posted. I don't wish to dump this in your lap, but if you look here - 3pdt true bypass wiring - Google Search - you will see that there are other switch-wiring arrangements, some of which ground the input or maybe even output of a circuit in bypass mode. Personally, I'm just aiming to cut the effect out of circuit, so I go with the one I posted. However, some designers prefer to ground the input or output of the effect in bypass mode to keep noise low.

Maybe it would be best to contact the manufacturer, describe the problem as you've described it to me, and ask them if the input is terminated, and if so what other source of popping might exist. They make a big deal of how much fine tuning and effort they put into the pedals (and the use use trimmers corroborates this), so I would think that they'd be open to enhancing their reputation with your experience of a pop-free pedal.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

OK and thanks for the effort. I'll try again to contact the manufacturer.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

I'm in contact with Luis at Pedal FX, he's touring the US at the moment which is why he was late responding. Sounds like he will be very helpful.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

DaddyDog said:


> I found the Topanga reverb did the same. Turns out there's a switch inside to go to buffer mode... and that's their resolution for the pop.


Buffers are the solution. Where is the switch?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

davetcan said:


> I'm in contact with Luis at Pedal FX, he's touring the US at the moment which is why he was late responding. Sounds like he will be very helpful.


Two lessons in that particular bit of good news:

1) Anyone can put up a snazzy website these days, that looks like "operators are standing by to take your calls". It can be nigh impossible to differentiate between a huge operation like Boss, and 1 or 2-person "business", where a 24hr-flu or weekend trip out of town to help mom with a move makes it seem like the business has shut down.

2) When people put a lot of themselves into a pet project, produced in very modest quantities, and sold for modest prices, they can usually be relied upon to value any contribution to their reputation. They may be protective of their product, and may not be in an optimal position to respond instantly (and many will have day jobs or other commitments that pull at them), but can usually be relied on to respond.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

@davetcan Please keep us updated on the progress with this. Thanks.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Two lessons in that particular bit of good news:
> 
> 1) Anyone can put up a snazzy website these days, that looks like "operators are standing by to take your calls". It can be nigh impossible to differentiate between a huge operation like Boss, and 1 or 2-person "business", where a 24hr-flu or weekend trip out of town to help mom with a move makes it seem like the business has shut down.
> 
> 2) When people put a lot of themselves into a pet project, produced in very modest quantities, and sold for modest prices, they can usually be relied upon to value any contribution to their reputation. They may be protective of their product, and may not be in an optimal position to respond instantly (and many will have day jobs or other commitments that pull at them), but can usually be relied on to respond.


Agree on both points. I will also heap fairly high praise on them both here and on TGP. I value customer service, we all should. I made it clear I was not the original owner and wasn't looking for any warranty coverage, just like a bit of advice. He's calling me at home today on his dime, can't ask for more than that.

The pedal actually sounds terrific, which is the only reason I'm going to all this trouble


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Your interaction with Luis may also uncover some useful advice he/they can provide to customers, or a small improvement to the pedal or future pedals. Like the saying goes: One hand washes the other.

I hope this works out for both of you.


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## DaddyDog (Apr 21, 2017)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Buffers are the solution. Where is the switch?


"There is an internal switch marked “Buff. T.B”. Set it to “T.B.” for true-bypass operation. Or set it to “Buff.” (also referred to as “trails” mode because you can hit bypass and the reverb tail will ring through without being cutoff). Another benefit of using “Buff.” mode is you can use the Volume knob to preset a great clean boost from the Topanga’s discrete preamp whether the reverb is on or not. Or you can set the Volume to unity for an always-on “buffer” for your signal chain so you’ll always have the benefit of the discrete preamp."

Note their comment about the Volume! It took me awhile to find out it is active even when the pedal is NOT engaged.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

This sounds interesting.

Testimonials on TGP claim it fixes "the pop" 

Lehle DC-Filter - Switching Systems, Controllers & DI Boxes - Effects & Pedals - Guitars & Amps | Cosmo Music


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

From their description, it sounds like it is the bleed resistor I suggested, except packed up and ready to go for those who don't or won't own a soldering iron or know how to use it. I won't diss it, since there are plenty of devices out there, even simpler in their concept (EHX had a box that was 4 or 5 jacks soldered together), that are simply provided as tools for those who don't know how or don't want to be bothered with, soldering. No matter how bonehead basic a product may be, if there's a niche to fill, fill it.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

davetcan said:


> ....it fixes "the pop"


Any progress with fixing "the pop"?


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

greco said:


> Any progress with fixing "the pop"?


Nope. The guy has gone completely quiet. Tried desoldering the LED and it's not that.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

So I just heard from Luis, both email and a phone call. He was waiting until he got back home to call. He has suggested a couple of possibilities and will send me a pic highlighting the components that can be checked/replaced. 3 resistors and 2 caps are likely suspects. Other than that there is the always possible bad solder joint, sigh.

I did ask about @mhammer 's idea of adding a cap to drain the charge but he says that is already built into the design of the pedal.

If it gets too complicated for my mediocre soldering skills I'll drop it off at my friendly amp techs and see if he'll take a crack at it 

Or I'll just say f*ck it. It works fine when running it through a pedal switcher, I'll just use it that way from now on.

I "would" like to solve the problem though


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

davetcan said:


> I did ask about @mhammer 's idea of adding a cap to drain the charge but he says that is already built into the design of the pedal.


I kind of figured as much. Which was why my first thought was to ask about other things you might have been plugged into.
Yup, this one is a head-scratcher.
I harken back to zdogma's whining Diamond Memory Lane pedal he brought me to fix. It wasn't until after a few e-mail exchanges with Diamond that the possibility of an off-spec voltage regulator was brought to my attention. I checked, as per their suggestion, and sure enough, one of the 3-pin regulators had the dreaded "too-thin-heat-fin", that would result in that voltage drifting as the device warmed up. It was a problem they had with a shipment of regulators they used for an early run of that pedal.

Sometimes you have to work your way well down the list of possibilities to check when troubleshooting...and sometimes it's not even ON the list.


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## vokey design (Oct 24, 2006)

davetcan said:


> This sounds interesting.
> 
> Testimonials on TGP claim it fixes "the pop"
> 
> Lehle DC-Filter - Switching Systems, Controllers & DI Boxes - Effects & Pedals - Guitars & Amps | Cosmo Music


Thanks for this! I hope it works, 
There is noise!


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

vokey design said:


> Thanks for this! I hope it works,
> There is noise!


For reasons completely unknown my pedal has stopped popping. I was running the board thru a pedal switcher and the pedal was essentially "on" the whole time. When I took it off last week to put it on my small board there was no pop.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

It was the switcher likely then, the same principle applies where you can put a resistor between input and ground, I think.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

keto said:


> It was the switcher likely then, the same principle applies where you can put a resistor between input and ground, I think.


I don't use the switcher on my small board One of life's little mysteries.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

keto said:


> It was the switcher likely then, the same principle applies where you can put a resistor between input and ground, I think.


Is this the final conclusion/explanation?


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

greco said:


> Is this the final conclusion/explanation?


No! I'll try to be a bit more clear. The pedal NEVER popped once I ran it through the switcher, I didn't think it would, and it didn't. The pedal was left ON and I used the switcher to toggle on and off. That was on the larger of my two boards.

I took it off the larger board and put onto my mini, this was after about 3 or 4 weeks spent on the large board. So guitar>pedal>amp and this time NO pop. I can't explain it, I'm just happy about it. 

Is it remotely possible that there was a charge built up in a cap somewhere that was eventually drained because the pedal was essentially always on when running through the switcher?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

davetcan said:


> Is it remotely possible that there was a charge built up in a cap somewhere that was eventually drained because the pedal was essentially always on when running through the switcher?


Interesting hypothesis. I await more comments.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify (above post).


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

greco said:


> Interesting hypothesis. I await more comments.
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to clarify (above post).


You will note I have no clue!


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## Guest (Feb 22, 2019)

Could you have inadvertently repaired it when you desoldered and resoldered the LED or other components?


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## vokey design (Oct 24, 2006)

davetcan said:


> This sounds interesting.
> 
> Testimonials on TGP claim it fixes "the pop"
> 
> Lehle DC-Filter - Switching Systems, Controllers & DI Boxes - Effects & Pedals - Guitars & Amps | Cosmo Music


I have one of these BNIB if anyone is interested


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Every time this thread pops up it makes me think of the dreaded bypass surgery gone wrong.


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