# My new sig - Apologies to Jazz fans.



## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

Well, seeing as how I've made just over 400 posts here I figured I'd change my signature line and I'll tell you the story behind it. The last time I was in a band back in the mid 90's we had a rhythm guitarist named Rob who was a pretty outspoken and honest person but never blunt, opinionated or rude. So one day the topic of Jazz music came up and that's when he said what I now have in my signature line. It's something I'll never forget as I found it to be pretty amusing. To him pure Jazz music basically sounded like a cacophony. Speaking for myself, I don't mind Jazz as long as it has a mix of either pop, rock or blues to it. Pure Jazz is a different story. :smile: Remember, the quote below is *his* quote, not mine.


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

there is nothing wrong with jazz....just learning basic bass and my "noodlings" I consider to be "free form jazz bass"....same goes for my bud when he is wacking my drum set.....screw the 1/4 beat.....we call it "free form jazz"..lol


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

"Jazz is five different people playing five different songs at the same time." - My ex-bandmates opinion of Jazz.
I wonder where that came from, because I used to say pretty much the same thing...and I've never met your bandmate.
I still think some of it is.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I like some Jazz, mostly Big Band stuff and a few Fusion artists, but Bebop is not my cup of tea at all.

Listening to guys blow over changes from the fake book (or real book) is no better than hearing endless pentatonic wanking over 12 bar blues, or shredders going meedley meedley over mediocre songs.

Look at me, look at me!! Song? Unimportant.

It's self indulgence and musically uninspiring to me.

I want to hear a good song. That's why I prefer Glen Miller, Count Baisey, and the Duke over Parker, Coltrane and most other beboppers.

Just my opinon of course


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> Personally, I think some of the most beautiful songs ever written are jazz tunes. Not just show tunes, but actual jazz tunes... "Blue in Green" and "Round Midnight" are two of my all time favorite songs of any genre.



I agree totally. My problem is in the "interpretation" of such gems. I've simply seen and heard far too many examples of soloists making great songs "their own".


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## Wheeman (Dec 4, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I agree totally. My problem is in the "interpretation" of such gems. I've simply seen and heard far too many examples of soloists making great songs "their own".


Hence why they are called standards. Same basic core, different interpretation. Just for a clarification, what do you mean by pure jazz? Like 1950's and prior standards?

I really enjoy some of Dizzy Gillespie's (he plays a trumpet with a horn bent at 45 degrees, pretty cool) stuff, as well as Sammy Nestico (composer and conductor of the Count Basie orchestra) has some nice charts as well.

Free form jazz can be really hard to play and listen to. If the rhythm section isn't tight, it will fail.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Milkman said:


> I agree totally. My problem is in the "interpretation" of such gems. I've simply seen and heard far too many examples of soloists making great songs "their own".


Ah, but Charlie Parker was one of those rare people you'd pay (or at least I would) to hear limbering up, smacked out of his head too.
John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Jimi Hendrix...

I go through cycles with jazz, listening to the big band stuff, Billie Holiday, then into bebop, fusion, and then the harder 5 guys/5 songs stuff -- a lot of Allan Holdsworth's music can sound a bit like that at times. Then put it down and go listen to something else for a few years.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

i love love LOVE jazz. big band, or bebop, fusion or what have you. i'm even down with sun ra (although, last night i was having a conversation about jazz, and i do think that there's nothing more to be said in the free jazz genre, sorry.... there's just nothing to add to the exploration of dissonance, IMO.

milkman, i don't understand how you can say that trane or miles davis didn't care about the song... i don't think there's anything further from the truth. towering giants, and i would sell my soul gladly to play like coltrane for one night. just in case the devil might be reading 

lately i'm back into thelonius monk. that man had such an interesting ear. 

that being said, i don't mind the new signature....


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

suttree said:


> i love love LOVE jazz. big band, or bebop, fusion or what have you. i'm even down with sun ra (although, last night i was having a conversation about jazz, and i do think that there's nothing more to be said in the free jazz genre, sorry.... there's just nothing to add to the exploration of dissonance, IMO.
> 
> milkman, i don't understand how you can say that trane or miles davis didn't care about the song... i don't think there's anything further from the truth. towering giants, and i would sell my soul gladly to play like coltrane for one night. just in case the devil might be reading
> 
> ...


I can only give my honest opinion and you've already read that. To me it sounds like the solos are more important than the melodies.

I really don't find Miles Davis or John Coltrane, particularly musical. I didn't and wouldn't say that they didn't have talent, but trust me, in three years of full time jazz studies at Mohawk college, I had lots of opportunity to listen, play, arrange and study jazz of various styles.

People like what they like.

I prefer George and Ira to all of the Bebop legends.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> ...and some think Dimebag Darrell blows away every modern guitar player.


Maybe I'm a bit thick but you'll have to explain the connection unless you mean they are equally unreasonable.

I try very hard to stay away from terms like "better than" or "blows away" et cetera, when it comes to tastes. 

I just don't dig most Be bop. It's not like I'm completely uninformed or have a closed mind on the genre.


No need to defend the genre.


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

Thanks for all the replies so far guys. I was hoping people wouldn't be offended by it and I'm glad to see it's started an interesting discussion. The thing is, all we all know, there's good music and bad music in all categories but then again I think it was either Duke Ellington or Louis Armstrong who said "There are two kinds of music, good music and bad music." I guess for some people, like my ex-bandmate, Jazz is an acquired taste. He was more into Rock and Country. So what do you guys think of "smooth jazz" and a guy like Stings interpretation of what may be called Jazz lite or Jazz Pop? Personally I like a lot of Stings stuff.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Kenmac said:


> So what do you guys think of "smooth jazz"


Where's the flush icon? sorry I am not that old yet.

jimmy smith till I die..


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

Kenmac said:


> I think it was either Duke Ellington or Louis Armstrong who said "There are two kinds of music, good music and bad music."


that was the Duke. he continued with, "i like to think i play the good kind"

milkman, i understand that you like what you like, and i totally support that... but i don't think it's fair to say that those guys weren't musical, or that they were wanking.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> I wouldn't say either opinion is "unreasonable". I happen to disagree with the two opinions equally, but you like what you like, the Dimebag fan likes what he likes and I like what I like.
> 
> That's the point.



I suppose the difference in my little mind is the fact that I don't think in terms of "blowing anyone away" and when it comes to opinions as to musical styles, which is essentially what this thread is about, not liking bebop is perfectly ok.

My opinion is not a matter of opinion. Can you dig it?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

suttree said:


> that was the Duke. he continued with, "i like to think i play the good kind"
> 
> milkman, i understand that you like what you like, and i totally support that... but i don't think it's fair to say that those guys weren't musical, or that they were wanking.



I didn't say they were unmusical. I said "I don't find them particularly musical", and THAT is indisputable.

I NEVER make absolute statements about matters of taste and I don't recall using the term "wanking" either.

The simple truth is that I don't care for Bebop as a rule. I also don't like rap, most new country and a lot of blues. There are great players and writers in all genres. I just don't enjoy much of what I hear from those I mentioned.

I tend to favour rock, classical, folk, some old country, orchestral jazz and traditional ethnic music.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Paul said:


> I think I tend to agree with you on unneccesary musical wanking....."Kind of Blue" is NOT a bop album, is mostly improvised, (wanked), and is one of my desert island albums. When improvisors create and develope music, it's a beautiful thing. When they tie together a bunk of hot licks, it's the wanking equivalent of switching to the left hand.
> 
> I think the problem is that there are literally only a handful of musicians on the planet at any one time that have the skills to be musically interestings and valid while "wanking". The rest of us try. I can listen to BB King all night, Popa Chubby holds my attention, but the rest of the blues players out there can hold my attention for at best a set, as long as only one or two guys take 1 chorus each. In terms of blues, there is nothing anyone can say musically in 96 bars that they could not have said better in 24. In jazz I think that Joey DeFrancesco and most of the Marsalis family have "the gift".
> 
> ...



Sing Sing Sing is a prome example of the Jazz that I love. 
Rhapsody in Blue is another.
Moonlight Serenade
Frank
Tony
Billy
Satchmo


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I NEVER make absolute statements.


sorry couldn't resist 

yah like i said mm... i'm firmly of the opinion that everyone should like what they like, it's not that i think one is better than the other. but i just can't imagine listening to kind of blue, or giant steps, and being unmoved. 

sing sing sing is one heck of a piece of music.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I dig most jazz, though some of the soupy smooth jazz leaves me cold. Lately Joscho Stephan, a Django type, has got a lot of spins at home and in the car. Oscar Peterson could cut loose over anything and sound like he understood where the melody was, same with Stephane Grappelli, Homer & Jethro, Joe Pass...

It all comes down to taste, which for lots of folks changes all the time as we discover new stuff.

Style vs fashion figures into it too. I don't know if I'd want it real loud nowadays (I used to listen to lots of Jean-Luc Ponty, cranked)...as I get older I prefer more acoustic stuff. 

None of this is good bad or ugly, just different. 

Peace, Mooh.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> So, if you express the opinion that Miles and Coltrane aren't particularly musical, that opinion can not be challenged. But if someone else expresses the opinion that Dimebag Darrel is the greatest modern guitarist, that should be challenged.
> 
> Maybe I'm the one who's dense. Remind me again why your opinion is superior to others'? Because you took some music courses at a community college?


Because I'm not saying that Bebop is inferior to anything. I'm merely sying that I don't like it. That may be a fine distinction but it seems quite different to me.

If I had said Glen Miller was better than Charlie Parker, you might have a point. I did not.

The Dimebag comment you refer to was: "in terms of playing ability/talent and rhythmical genius, Dimebag blows almost every modern guitar player out of the water."

This seems simple to me. My opinion is no more important or valid than anyone's (even yours), but it is what it is, whether you like it or not.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> Not _inferior_, just _unmusical_.
> 
> Hey, if you want to create false distinctions to try to claim that your negative opinion of Miles and Coltrane is somehow different or more reasoned than someone else's positive opinion of Dimebag, so be it. To me, they're two sides of the same coin.
> 
> Honestly, I don't care in the least whether you like bebop or not, or whether the original poster or his friend think jazz sounds like 5 guys playing different songs or whether someone else thinks Dimebag is the second coming. If that's your opinion, then its your opinion. We all hear different things in music. What moves me may have no effect on you whatsoever and vice versa. I'd rather chew glass than listen to 30 seconds of April Wine or Kim Mitchell or any other classic rock radio staple. I suspect your opinion on that is quite different. And I wouldn't ever try to convince you to change that view. But to imply that your opinions are sound while the others are unreasonable seems a bit hypocritical to me, though. Don't you think?



You seem bound and bent to ignore the distinction between what I like or dislike and someone saying something is better than something else.

There IS a difference. See it however you like.

Chew glass if you wish.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

suttree said:


> sorry couldn't resist
> 
> yah like i said mm... i'm firmly of the opinion that everyone should like what they like, it's not that i think one is better than the other. but i just can't imagine listening to kind of blue, or giant steps, and being unmoved.
> 
> sing sing sing is one heck of a piece of music.


LOL. You must be a staff writer for the National Enquirer.

The quote might have been more accurate if you had included the rest of it.

"I NEVER make absolute statements about matters of taste".


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

lol. I understand shoretyus. :smile:



shoretyus said:


> Where's the flush icon? sorry I am not that old yet.
> 
> jimmy smith till I die..


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> Yah, "In my opinion _______ is better than _______" and "I prefer _______ to ________" are hugely different statements.
> 
> 
> 
> We obviously speak two different languages.



Get your facts straight.

Show me where in the Dime vs Cobain statement the words "In my opinion" appear.

I speak English.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> Post #7 - "I guess it's a matter of opinion..."
> 
> Besides, do you really need to be expressly told that statements people make here, particularly about music, are opinions? It's the nature of a discussion board. Does every statement everyone makes have to be expressly premised with "In my opinion...", or could you maybe just determine that from the context. It would save a lot of bandwidth if you could.


Post #7?

Now you're being ridiculous. I commented on the first post. Am I supposed to be freaking Kreskin now and predict what is said in subsequent posts?

LMAO.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Kenmac said:


> "Jazz is five different people playing five different songs at the same time." - My ex-bandmates opinion of Jazz.


Well, congratulations on starting a shitstorm with your 400th post
I'm planning on inciting a riot about blues, Bach and whether Yngwie Malmsteen is better/worse than Bing Crosby with mine 


(Did I mention that I like the way this board treats us like adults that can handle a bit of constructive profanity unlike TGP with its asterisks?)


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

There's no hypocracy in my statements or in my opinion.

This is basically trolling or something like it.


Somebody got there little feelins hurt because I don like bebop. Where's the emoticon with the pouty lip?

The simple facts are that I voiced an opinion. The Dime vs Cobain thing was originally stated in a way that looked like a fact.

No big deal, but to bang away at me for something like this demonstrates an underlying animosity. That's cool. I've been disliked by better.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Ha! I'll make it easy for you all.
Here:









Now here's another one:









What else do we need? Hmmm, let me see: 









That about sums it up no?
I liked the OP's new sig line, I thought it was funny.


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

Well actually it was my 401st and honestly I didn't think something like this would happen. :frown: I know your "riot" comment was meant in a humourous manner but I think I'll be disabling my signature for awhile now. I haven't read the rest of the posts up to this point but I think maybe somebody should start a new topic on favourite Jazz artists or something similar. I've never posted to the Gear Page but I'm sure it isn't as bad as the Harmony Central forums.



devnulljp said:


> Well, congratulations on starting a shitstorm with your 400th post
> I'm planning on inciting a riot about blues, Bach and whether Yngwie Malmsteen is better/worse than Bing Crosby with mine
> 
> 
> (Did I mention that I like the way this board treats us like adults that can handle a bit of constructive profanity unlike TGP with its asterisks?)


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Kenmac said:


> The thing is, all we all know, there's good music and bad music in all categories but then again I think it was either Duke Ellington or Louis Armstrong who said "There are two kinds of music, good music and bad music."


And BB King said something along the lines of, "There are no bad songs, just bad performances." or something like that--but I think he worded it more nicely.

I'm not sure I'd be that optimistic.

I do find as I grow older I like more jazz than I used to. Or at least I can tolerate it more.

And I take Milkman's posts as saying that's his opinion. That's a correct statement-it is his opinion. That doesn't mean he is right or wrong in any sense. But he is correct that it is his opinion.


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## Spikezone (Feb 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> He prefers Ellington and Basie to Miles and Coltrane. The other guy prefers Dimebag to any other modern guitarist. Both explained why they feel that way. How on earth is one of those opinions any more valid than the other?





jroberts said:


> We are speaking NOW, not yesterday afternoon. Do you NOW think that mysweetshadow747 was expressing anything other than an opinion?


Milkman and mysweetshadow747 were BOTH expressing their opinions, but I can see the difference quite clearly-mysweetshadow747 was definitively stating that Dimebag's TALENT exceeds that of his peers, which sounds like '_____ is better than _____' (and no one is qualified to make that kind of judgement call, unless they qualify it by starting with "in my opinion"), where Milkman was expressing his opinion on the APPEAL TO HIM of one kind of music over another, which sounds like 'I like _____ music better than _____ music' (and every one is qualified to make this kind of statement). 

It's hard to put in words, but basically, we are all the absolute authority on what kind of music or what particular player we LIKE best, but NONE OF US is the absolute authority on what kind of music or what particular player IS the best. To express his opinion properly, mysweetshadow747 should have stated that he likes Dimebags's playing better than everyone else's rather than stating Dimebag's playing blows everyone else out of the water. We can all judge if we like something or not, but we all have different ideas about what constitutes 'best', so none of us can say what IS best, because one critic's idea of best won't be the same as any other critic's idea of best. If you don't grasp that distinction, jroberts, then maybe it's beyond explaining or maybe you are beyond hope...
-Mikey


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

One thing I've noticed about a lot of jazz is it's waaaay better live. A small-ish place, with a live jazz band can be pretty great, even music that might otherwise fall flat on record -- not talking about Kenny G here -- I've seen some good small jazz groups, and really enjoyed it. Can't imagine what it must have been like going to see Charlie Parker or Django in a little club. Closest I've come are small jazz clubs with international players in Osaka and London or the Iridium in New York, and a few places on Vancouver Island with local players. Much different than sitting down listening to a CD...it's live music...even if it is still 5 guys playing 5 different songs


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Mooh said:


> I dig most jazz, though some of the soupy smooth jazz leaves me cold. Lately Joscho Stephan, a Django type, has got a lot of spins at home and in the car. Oscar Peterson could cut loose over anything and sound like he understood where the melody was, same with Stephane Grappelli, Homer & Jethro, Joe Pass...


man, I always forget about Stephane Grappelli, overshadowed (for me) by Django. He did a show on the BBC I think years ago with Yehudi Menuin (sp?) that was fantastic, watching those two go at it, with every fiddle player they could find in Europe, and just having a great time playing.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Saw Peterson once live at the Stratford Festival Theatre. Great show, no p.a. solo, fantastic room.

The last jazz show I saw was Jeff Healey about a month before he died. As a live band they were superb.

Anyone here seen Kate Schutt? I'd like to know what she's like live.

Peace, Mooh.


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I can only give my honest opinion and you've already read that. To me it sounds like the solos are more important than the melodies.
> 
> I really don't find Miles Davis or John Coltrane, particularly musical. I didn't and wouldn't say that they didn't have talent, but trust me, in three years of full time jazz studies at Mohawk college, I had lots of opportunity to listen, play, arrange and study jazz of various styles.
> 
> ...


Well, I really enjoy John Coltrane and Miles Davis...if heard in the right setting. John Coltrane always seems right late in the evening during the monsoon season. But, for an exceptional sensory experience, you should listen to 'Bitches Brew' while walking down the streets of Seoul or Tokyo on a Saturday night. It's as if it was recorded for that purpose.

So, what's your take on Sun Ra? :smile:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Spikezone said:


> Milkman and mysweetshadow747 were BOTH expressing their opinions, but I can see the difference quite clearly-mysweetshadow747 was definitively stating that Dimebag's TALENT exceeds that of his peers, which sounds like '_____ is better than _____' (and no one is qualified to make that kind of judgement call, unless they qualify it by starting with "in my opinion"), where Milkman was expressing his opinion on the APPEAL TO HIM of one kind of music over another, which sounds like 'I like _____ music better than _____ music' (and every one is qualified to make this kind of statement).
> 
> It's hard to put in words, but basically, we are all the absolute authority on what kind of music or what particular player we LIKE best, but NONE OF US is the absolute authority on what kind of music or what particular player IS the best. To express his opinion properly, mysweetshadow747 should have stated that he likes Dimebags's playing better than everyone else's rather than stating Dimebag's playing blows everyone else out of the water. We can all judge if we like something or not, but we all have different ideas about what constitutes 'best', so none of us can say what IS best, because one critic's idea of best won't be the same as any other critic's idea of best. If you don't grasp that distinction, jroberts, then maybe it's beyond explaining or maybe you are beyond hope...
> -Mikey



Some people get it and some don't or perhaps don't WANT to.


No amount of explanation will work on the latter.

Thanks for being in the "I get it" column.
:rockon:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Some figure their opinions count more than others. There's no reasoning with someone like that.


You're wrong, I'm right.

Let's move on.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Where's the dead horse smiley when you need it?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Pffft. I'm way beyond trying to reason with Mr Roberts. 

I'm just having fun now.


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## Coustfan'01 (Sep 27, 2006)

I win.
:banana:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Coustfan'01 said:


> I win.
> :banana:


Yes, you do.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Paul said:


> You should have consulted with me first, before awarding 1st prize. You may now consider me an apostate!!!!
> 
> I fart in your general direction!


You'll have to take a number and get in line.

Will that be random farting (bebop style) or a well coordinated and synchronized chorus of farts (big band style).


And, back on topic.:smile:


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## Spikezone (Feb 2, 2006)

Paul said:


> More of a solo performance where lumps are always a risk for both the performer and the audience. Crop spraying is extra.
> 
> And brings this thread down to the level it so richly deserves.
> 
> I'm off to another thread.


Hey...that's me last night!!! LOL!
-Mikey


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## Spikezone (Feb 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> Why is it acceptable to prefer A to B, but not say that I think C is better than all of them?


Because the statement was NOT (!!!!!) "I think C is better than all of them". The statement was "C is better than all of them". Huge difference! Figure it out!
-Mikey


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Some people get it and some don't or perhaps don't WANT to.
> 
> 
> No amount of explanation will work on the latter.
> ...


There's a column now?:smile:

Put me in it...


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

Speaking of Miles Davis, has anyone here ever listened to his ex-wife Betty Davis? I got hooked on her 'This is it' Album about a year or so ago - great stuff, I don't know what to clasify it as other than I like it.


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## Spikezone (Feb 2, 2006)

Here's the quote. For the life of me, I can't find the place where he expressly said that his statement was a matter of opinion:


mysweetshadow747 said:


> On this site under the "guitar legends" tab, they have some of the world's best listed. However, they also have one of the most debatable included... while leaving out a CRUCIAL guitar force whose life as a player AND a person inspired millions of people. I'm talking of course about Dimebag Darrell Abbott, guitarist for the infamous Pantera. Pantera was, and still is, most likely, the LEADING FORCE in the heavy metal transfer from glam rock to modern metal and Dimebag's playing is probably some of the most soulful and amazing guitar work I've ever heard. It's a real shame that a mediocre guitarist like Kurt Cobain was chosen over this true legend we all knew and loved.
> 
> Now before everybody goes nuts on me for calling Kurt Cobain a mediocre guitar player, at least look at the reasoning behind my argument. I'm not saying that Kurt Cobain wasn't insanely influential to the grunge scene or music in general, but in terms of playing ability/talent and rhythmical genius, Dimebag blows almost every modern guitar player out of the water. Is there anybody who backs me up on this?
> 
> :rockon2: \m/,


I rest my case...you will never get the point, so I am giving up on this worthless pursuit!
-Mikey


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