# No more American-made Ovation guitars ever again



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...g-this-summer-after-47-years/article18127106/


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Another brand that FMIC has let drift on it's own.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Fender sited "present market conditions" as the reason for closing the plant. That means it is not economically viable and by reading between the lines, other plants may be closing as well. They are not as interested in making guitars as they are in making money.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> Fender sited "present market conditions" as the reason for closing the plant. That means it is not economically viable and by reading between the lines, other plants may be closing as well. They are not as interested in making guitars *as they are in making money*.


Well, they are a business after all. Thats what business's do.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Corporate greed is wonderful thing, isn't it?


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## dtsaudio (Apr 15, 2009)

Fender has a massive debt load (remember the failed stock attempt). This is just one way to cut costs, and increase profit margins. Welcome to manufacturing in the 21st century.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

As sad as it may be, if it's your factory and you're losing money, how long do you keep it running?

I've played some very nice ovations. I still own an Ovation mandolin but I believe it was made in Korea.

Truthfully it's one of the better mandos I own.


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## eric_b (Dec 6, 2008)

Recently sold an '83 Matrix 1137 by Ovation, made in Connecticut, USA, for $50. Glad to be rid.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

bagpipe said:


> Well, they are a business after all. That's what business's do.


Yes, unfortunately, they do. Money (greed) is more important than people. And as you say, Bagpipe, it's not just in the music industry, it's in every industry. Big business pretty much runs this world.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> Yes, unfortunately, they do. Money (greed) is more important than people. And as you say, Bagpipe, it's not just in the music industry, it's in every industry. Big business pretty much runs this world.


Big business? How many "small" businesses would run at a loss for altruistic reasons?

I laugh when people blame big business for logical decisions, but who will transfer funds from one RRSP fund to another at the drop of a hat when it starts losing. When it's _their _money it's all business.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

"Fender officials say the factory closing will affect all 46 workers, who will get severance packages, *outplacement services* and other assistance."

Don't be too hard on Fender. It sounds like the workers can move to China if they want to. _(I'm be facetious)_

On the other hand: I love how the Ovation's slide around in my lap when I'm playing them sitting down. _(OK, I'm be facetious again but I don't want to kick the brand when their down)_


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Milkman said:


> Big business? How many "small" businesses would run at a loss for altruistic reasons?
> 
> I laugh when people blame big business for logical decisions, but who will transfer funds from one RRSP fund to another at the drop of a hat when it starts losing. When it's _their _money it's all business.


I have said it many times before, you are in business to make money. If not, why are you in business? If this is true, why not make as much money as possible. Is that not the goal? If you are not making any money and continue to run it you are a fool. As a side note I have never liked Ovation guitars


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I got this Squier for $150!!!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I have said it many times before, you are in business to make money. If not, why are you in business? If this is true, why not make as much money as possible. Is that not the goal? If you are not making any money and continue to run it you are a fool. As a side note I have never liked Ovation guitars


There is making a comfortable living and providing secure employment at decent wages for employees, and there is the seductive lure of "growth" and tempting stockholder investment. Plenty of small and larger businesses are able to carry on in that first mode, for generations. It's when they get seduced by the idea of being bigger that they begin taking the sorts of risks that are meant to entice and secure investors. And if that means moving production offshore, so that investors get dollar signs in their eyes, then production gets moved offshore.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

mhammer said:


> There is making a comfortable living and providing secure employment at decent wages for employees, and there is the seductive lure of "growth" and tempting stockholder investment. Plenty of small and larger businesses are able to carry on in that first mode, for generations. It's when they get seduced by the idea of being bigger that they begin taking the sorts of risks that are meant to entice and secure investors. And if that means moving production offshore, so that investors get dollar signs in their eyes, then production gets moved offshore.


In business there is no such thing as enough. You are connected to the Gov, there is no better example of that then the Gov. They spend every waking moment trying to squeeze another dollar out of us. Fender is no different

Give me just one example of a business owner that will stand up and say he is happy with the current income and is not interested in making any more money and I will mark that down as a company to never consider investing in. The goal is ALWAYS to reduce cost and increase the bottom line. Obviously quality is important in that plan. Some have traded quality for cash over the years, not a smart way to go about it and eventually it will bring you down.

For the past 20 years we have witnessed this in every form of manufacturing in North America. Not sure why people continue to fight it and think that these companies are going to stay here for some kind of humanitarian reasons. It's business, like it or not that's the way the game is played.

Fender and Gibson and all the rest will keep a "custom shop" here for those that want to buy North American and they can do it by charging you $2500 per instrument on avg. All the rest of the scum will pay the $700 and get one made in Korea or Japan or China, or Mexico (Which is the same as buying one made in California BTW)

Wal-Mart is probably the greatest example of this I have ever seen. They operate all over North America and employ thousands of people at the lowest wages possible. They buy all their goods at the absolute lowest price they can find anywhere on earth and sell it to us at the highest price possible. Fantastic model


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> Fender sited "present market conditions" as the reason for closing the plant. That means it is not economically viable and by reading between the lines, other plants may be closing as well. They are not as interested in making guitars as they are in making money.


No one seems to care about where our underwear are made.

Devil's Advocate


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I would respectfully disagree.

Once you have investors, the mentality changes, because now you have to dangle shiny objects in front of the investors to maintain their interest. Particularly since other companies trying to attract investment are dangling even shinier objects in front of them. And when that starter's pistol is fired, the race to the bottom begins.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

People can't keep buying cheap Asian import guitars then label Fender (or another co.) as a villain for shutting down a US plant.


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## Robboman (Oct 14, 2006)

Kind of sad news, but that's biz.

My first ever 'nice' acoustic guitar purchase was a used American Ovation with the extra-deep bowl body. I think it's from the 70's, I bought it in 88 or 89. I still have it and still think it sounds great acoustically. Very well built instrument. I learned a lot of chords and wrote a lot of songs on that thing, and somehow got used to that big bowl back sliding around. I'll keep it forever!

I do remember how, at that time, Ovation was THE acoustic guitar to have on stage. They were all over guitar magazines and Much Music videos, etc. We didn't have internet back then so we had to use other means to find out what kinds of guitars were hip


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I have said it many times before, you are in business to make money. If not, why are you in business? If this is true, _*why not make as much money as possible.*_ Is that not the goal? If you are not making any money and continue to run it you are a fool. As a side note I have never liked Ovation guitars


At the cost of others, many who may have been exceptionally hard workers and loyal to you for many years?


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> At the cost of others, many who may have been exceptionally hard workers and loyal to you for many years?


Unless you are an employer and are maintaining employees and wages at a loss, you don't have credentials to back that statement.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Steadfastly said:


> At the cost of others, many who may have been exceptionally hard workers and loyal to you for many years?


People are just another line item, under labour. The lower the number the higher the profit. That may sound harsh but it is reality. You run a window washing business if I remember correctly stead. If you wanted to hire someone would you pay them $22.00 an hour or minimum wage? Many years ago when I worked at the big blue machine we had hundreds of "janitors" wandering around making $23.00 an hour with full benefits and pensions. It's a non sustainable business model. Welcome to the global economy.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

There are all sort of opinions going on here. The question I have is....

"After FMIC acquired those brands, including Ovation, did they do anything to promote the guitars or improve production? Or did they just let it drift?"


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Excellent question.


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## neldom (Apr 29, 2009)

I find it interesting that in one thread we have people decrying the big names for being too expensive for what you get and refusing to support them, but then complaining in this one that those same companies are trying to cut costs on their product by outsourcing to the same countries their preferred vendors are manufacturing in.
Maybe if they were willing to pay what they consider too much money, those companies could afford to keep manufacturing in America.

I would think they should be happy, their refusal to spend money has obviously spoken to the company, resulting in the only outcome that could realistically be expected. 
They won, but are still complaining, some people just can't be pleased.


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## mario (Feb 18, 2006)

neldom said:


> I find it interesting that in one thread we have people decrying the big names for being too expensive for what you get and refusing to support them, but then complaining in this one that those same companies are trying to cut costs on their product by outsourcing to the same countries their preferred vendors are manufacturing in.
> Maybe if they were willing to pay what they consider too much money, those companies could afford to keep manufacturing in America.
> 
> I would think they should be happy, their refusal to spend money has obviously spoken to the company, resulting in the only outcome that could realistically be expected.
> They won, but are still complaining, some people just can't be pleased.


I nominate this as post of the year. I could have not said it any better.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

adcandour said:


> I got this Squier for $150!!!


Correction, $131.25, out the door.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________________


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Somewhere right now Melissa Etheridge is driving from store to store in a cube van buying up any and all Ovation 12 string models.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

mario said:


> neldom said:
> 
> 
> > I find it interesting that in one thread we have people decrying the big names for being too expensive for what you get and refusing to support them, but then complaining in this one that those same companies are trying to cut costs on their product by outsourcing to the same countries their preferred vendors are manufacturing in.
> ...


+1 This sums it up for me too.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

any speculation on what effect (if any) this will have on the value of "gently used" American made Ovations? :smile-new:

Truth of the matter is, Ovation is just not the popular "gotta have one" guitar it once was.
For the money, wouldn't you rather have a Martin or a Taylor?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Lincoln said:


> any speculation on what effect (if any) this will have on the value of "gently used" American made Ovations? :smile-new:
> 
> Truth of the matter is, Ovation is just not the popular "gotta have one" guitar it once was.
> *For the money, wouldn't you rather have a Martin or a Taylor?*


I don't know about a Martin or a Taylor but something nice that wouldn't slide off my knee would be good. I am quite happy with the Art & Lutherie for now.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> I don't know about a Martin or a Taylor but something nice that wouldn't slide off my knee would be good. I am quite happy with the Art & Lutherie for now.


That works too! I was just using Martin Taylor as an example. That's got to be a big factor in the closing. If every member in here was given $1500 to $3000 to spend on an acoustic guitar - how many of us would end up with an Ovation? I'm thinking zero would be a reasonable guess.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________________


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

I gave my last one to my neighbour. I hope I've learned my lesson this time.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

It's call role conflict. In my role as a consumer I want things (low prices, great quality) that directly conflict with what I want in my role as a producer/labourer (high wages, safe working conditions, benefits).

The same thing is going on in the other dilemma outlined here. In your role as an employer, you don't want to pay your employees low wages, but in your role as a merchant/manufacturer you want people to have enough money to buy your product. 

These dilemmas cannot be solved by "voting with your wallet" or pointing to the "reality of the market." The entire issue highlights the problem of trying to offer *individual *solutions to a truly *social *problem. The 'individual' choices we make in any of our roles are not "natural" or "inevitable". They are choices constrained and pre-structured by an external social system (the economy). The solution lies in changing the external structure so that such dilemmas do not exist. This isn't easy and will be contested by a very powerful group who benefits from the status quo. Yet anything else is a band aid solution that doesn't address the real source/cause of the problem.

TG



neldom said:


> I find it interesting that in one thread we have people decrying the big names for being too expensive for what you get and refusing to support them, but then complaining in this one that those same companies are trying to cut costs on their product by outsourcing to the same countries their preferred vendors are manufacturing in.
> Maybe if they were willing to pay what they consider too much money, those companies could afford to keep manufacturing in America.
> 
> I would think they should be happy, their refusal to spend money has obviously spoken to the company, resulting in the only outcome that could realistically be expected.
> They won, but are still complaining, some people just can't be pleased.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

traynor_garnet said:


> It's call role conflict. In my role as a consumer I want things (low prices, great quality) that directly conflict with what I want in my role as a producer/labourer (high wages, safe working conditions, benefits).
> 
> The same thing is going on in the other dilemma outlined here. In your role as an employer, you don't want to pay your employees low wages, but in your role as a merchant/manufacturer you want people to have enough money to buy your product.
> 
> ...


Under the present system of government(s), that solution will never happen.


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## Rodavision (Feb 26, 2010)

Robboman said:


> Kind of sad news, but that's biz.
> 
> My first ever 'nice' acoustic guitar purchase was a used American Ovation with the extra-deep bowl body. I think it's from the 70's, I bought it in 88 or 89. I still have it and still think it sounds great acoustically. Very well built instrument. I learned a lot of chords and wrote a lot of songs on that thing, and somehow got used to that big bowl back sliding around. I'll keep it forever!
> 
> I do remember how, at that time, Ovation was THE acoustic guitar to have on stage. They were all over guitar magazines and Much Music videos, etc. We didn't have internet back then so we had to use other means to find out what kinds of guitars were hip


My first guitar was also an Ovation deep body. I bought it new in 1993 for really cheap because it was Korean made. It looked amazing and sounded great acoustically as well as plugged in. The action could never be set the way I like because of the "variations" in manufacturing. My biggest beef with it has always been the narrow nut that makes grabbing only one string difficult, and of course the slippery round back.

I still keep that guitar for nostalgia reasons, and every time I play it I'm reminded of how great it was to buy my first guitar but how disappointing it was that it wasn't made well. 

I think there will always be a place for cheap crappy instruments as well as other people with more money willing to buy quality made instruments. The market naturally balances itself. If Ovation shuts down someone else will gain extra business and increase production of good quality guitars.

Sent from my XT925 using Tapatalk


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## ampjunkie (Jul 30, 2009)

My first acoustic was also a cheap Ovation (Applause). Has been through hell and back. 20+ years ago, it was in a fire, filled with water, top finish cracked, top slightly bellyed up. Put some light strings on it now, and it's a great beater guitar to keep around. Too much nostalgia to sell it. It still sounds OK after 30+ years ...


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## Gnobuddy (May 17, 2014)

Nostalgia and history aside, Ovations are a bit of a mixed bag in my opinion. Subjective issues about guitar tone aside, I've seen a _lot_ of Ovations with multiple cracks running the full length of the wooden guitar top. Evidently the wood expands and contracts with humidity changes in the usual way, while the composite plastic bowl doesn't, and over time the resulting stress seems to literally tear the wooden top apart along the grain.

I've even seen these cracks on new, unsold Ovations still sitting on shelves in the music store. The last one I saw was an Ovation mandolin, in a Guitar Center in the Los Angeles area. New, unsold, and already with multiple full-length cracks in the top. A salesman was trying to convince a customer to buy it, offering him a discount over the regular price. Yup, I pointed out the cracks to the would-be buyer just in case he hadn't noticed them, but that didn't seem to faze him in the slightest.

On the plus side, quite incredibly, Ovations usually still seem to hold together even after the top is cracked and torn completely apart. The internal bracing must be incredibly strong, since the cracked top is presumably incapable of carrying any of the string tension - so I guess the top bracing must be keeping the bridge in place. I knew one guy who kept bringing the same Ovation (with multiple cracks running the entire length of the top, some wide enough to actually see through) to acoustic jams for over two years! I stopped attending the jams after that, presumably the Ovation and its owner were still going strong.

A larger issue than the loss of American-made Ovation guitars is the health of the parent company (Fender). I don't think Fender Corp is doing too well these days, and I'm a bit concerned about their future. Guitar Center's financial problems aside, see, for instance, these reviews, supposedly from FMIC employees: http://www.glassdoor.ca/Reviews/Fender-Musical-Instruments-Reviews-E5962.htm

-Gnobuddy


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

I was told yesterday that 85% of acoustic guitar sales today are for models which are under $500. The high-end acoustic guitar builders have been hard hit.


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

rhh7 said:


> I was told yesterday that 85% of acoustic guitar sales today are for models which are under $500. The high-end acoustic guitar builders have been hard hit.


Couldn't disagree more most of the builders wait time are growing by the years instead of the months and most can't keep custom shops at Martin and Taylor and such can't keep up with the build demand.
I think its more the middle of the road guitars that are having a harder time ( ($1500-$2500 ) unless you are looking at the used market, which is great for those moving up from the $500 market for a better guitar. ship


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## rush2112 (Oct 2, 2010)

"insufficient volume levels"

True statement but a sign of greed over-riding making quality guitars. These type of press releases are cleverly crafted in board-rooms by head-less suits who can't get enough of the mean green. I'm sure a hired spin doctor approved the final draft delivered to the media.The company was profitable when they took over or they would not have assumed it. Sad sign of the times we live in. Nothing is sacred anymore except profits. Everyone is disposable as a Bic lighter. I hope Gibson does not operate with these kind of ethics as I have my eyes set on a Epiphone.


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## ampjunkie (Jul 30, 2009)

Ship of fools said:


> Couldn't disagree more most of the builders wait time are growing by the years instead of the months and most can't keep custom shops at Martin and Taylor and such can't keep up with the build demand.
> I think its more the middle of the road guitars that are having a harder time ( ($1500-$2500 ) unless you are looking at the used market, which is great for those moving up from the $500 market for a better guitar. ship


I agree with this. The high-end markets are doing fine. This is due to the large number of millionaires created in the last 10 years and the sheer number of wealthy clients for luxury products. Don't believe me? Check out the waiting lists for some builders like Kostal, Greenfield, Somogyi, etc. And these guitars are easily > $10K. And that is peanuts compared to the exotic supercar market which is selling out like crazy (Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, etc.). Not to mention high-end art (see the latest Christie's auctions), McMansions, etc.

I am not a big fan of the rich collectors who jack up the prices and who barely know how to play but spec out some of the ugliest guitars I have ever seen (way too much bling). But then again, without them, the golden age of luthery would not exist. :smile-new:


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## ampjunkie (Jul 30, 2009)

rush2112 said:


> "insufficient volume levels"
> 
> True statement but a sign of greed over-riding making quality guitars. These type of press releases are cleverly crafted in board-rooms by head-less suits who can't get enough of the mean green. I'm sure a hired spin doctor approved the final draft delivered to the media.The company was profitable when they took over or they would not have assumed it. Sad sign of the times we live in. Nothing is sacred anymore except profits. Everyone is disposable as a Bic lighter. I hope Gibson does not operate with these kind of ethics as I have my eyes set on a Epiphone.


Pass on the Epiphone and check out Ibanez. The Ibanez AS153 -- which is a clone of the ES-335 and made in China -- is 1/3 the price of a made-in-the-USA Gibson ES-335 and just as good in my opinion. Really quite amazing craftsmanship and quality for the money.


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## rush2112 (Oct 2, 2010)

ampjunkie said:


> Pass on the Epiphone and check out Ibanez. The Ibanez AS153 -- which is a clone of the ES-335 and made in China -- is 1/3 the price of a made-in-the-USA Gibson ES-335 and just as good in my opinion. Really quite amazing craftsmanship and quality for the money.


Thanks for that, going to do a search right now on that AS153 Ibanez.

Hopefully it has a wider neck than the others.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Still digging my little MIK mando. Great action, and sounds really smooth through the PA.




























Durability remains to be seen, but so far, it's a surprisingly nice instrument for the cost.


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## Gnobuddy (May 17, 2014)

rush2112 said:


> Thanks for that, going to do a search right now on that AS153 Ibanez.
> 
> Hopefully it has a wider neck than the others.


If you're looking for a wider neck, take a look at the Agile AS-820 Wide from Rondo Music (dot com) while you're searching. I have one, and it's an excellent guitar in my opinion, better than any Epiphone I've tried. The Wide versions have a 1 3/4" (44.5 millimetres) nut width. For me, that's a huge improvement over 1 5/8" or 1 11/16" necks.

I have an Ibanez AS-73, incidentally, and I hugely prefer the Agile AS-820 to it. The Agile has a much better neck and fretwork. However, I have no personal knowledge of the Ibanez AS-153.

-Gnobuddy


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## HarpBoy (Jun 10, 2009)

rush2112 said:


> "insufficient volume levels"
> 
> True statement but a sign of greed over-riding making quality guitars. These type of press releases are cleverly crafted in board-rooms by head-less suits who can't get enough of the mean green. I'm sure a hired spin doctor approved the final draft delivered to the media.The company was profitable when they took over or they would not have assumed it. Sad sign of the times we live in. Nothing is sacred anymore except profits. Everyone is disposable as a Bic lighter. I hope Gibson does not operate with these kind of ethics as *I have my eyes set on a Epiphone.*


Does this not strike anyone else as sort of ironic, given the original theme of this thread?


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