# Why is it so hard to buy speakers in Canada?!?



## coyoteblue

Why are there so few places to buy speakers in this country?! Here in Toronto, a city with a million guitar players, there's no store that I know of that has a selection of speakers, especially now that Songbird has closed. Are they such a money losing enterprise? If anyone knows a place in Toronto with a decent selection I'd appreciate knowing. (I know there's an Eminence dealer in the Cambridge/Kitchener area.)


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## Wild Bill

coyoteblue said:


> Why are there so few places to buy speakers in this country?! Here in Toronto, a city with a million guitar players, there's no store that I know of that has a selection of speakers, especially now that Songbird has closed. Are they such a money losing enterprise? If anyone knows a place in Toronto with a decent selection I'd appreciate knowing. (I know there's an Eminence dealer in the Cambridge/Kitchener area.)


In a word, money!

The margin on speakers is not that high. What's more, not that many players will change out a speaker. Lots of combos sold and Marshall 4-12 style boxes but not very many individual speakers. 

So who's gonna put out the money for a lot of speakers in inventory? How long before you've even paid off the inventory order? You have to sell maybe half a dozen speakers before you've paid the cost of one for inventory!

When you run any kind of store you have to consider how much money you can make with what kind of profit margin. You can get by with a small markup if you're selling a LOT of items! That's how variety stores work. They might get to keep only a nickel on every loaf of bread but hopefully they sell a LOT of bread!

Or if you're selling something that you only sell once in a while, you have to get a BIG markup! That might be your only sale for the month so you have to make enough money to pay all the overhead and hopefully have enough left over to feed your kids.

Carrying stock of speakers is the worst of both worlds. You don't make much markup and they don't sell that often. 

You can't put your prices higher for more margin 'cuz the store down the street is selling them for less profit than it took to pay the Purolator bill to have them shipped in! And every musician will spend $10 in gas to drive to another store to get the item for $5 less. That's the way it is and every store owner knows it. You can have the best service around and the other guy may be a total nob but if he's cheaper he gets the biz!

As a tech I sell speakers but I simply can't afford to keep inventory. Besides, the wait time is only a day or so. I've actually had a couple of guys who came by to pick my brain about the best speaker choice and then buy them somewhere else!

They seemed bewildered when later they wanted me to fix their amp and I told them I was too busy!

Believe me, if you ran a store yourself you'd understand how things work VERY quickly! If you didn't you simply wouldn't be in business long.

:food-smiley-004:


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## coyoteblue

I get what you're saying, but I wonder why it is that it is relatively easy to buy speakers in the US. Population is 10 times bigger and there are 50x more places to buy speakers. Bill, if you have any 8" speakers let me know...I need one for a Vibro Champ.


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## Mooh

www.loudspeakers.ca has always done right by me. Waterloo, and they ship. Ask for Terry. Good service, and they know their stuff better than your average music store.

Peace, Mooh.


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## zdogma

I had a look at the list, good prices on the Emi guitar speakers.


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## Kapo_Polenton

I understand the whole "support your economy" thing but damn, it is hard to get the stuff we need here in Canada. Even doing minor mods, its always ship this or that like an Ohm switch or osme faceplates. Right now if i need to buy or try anymore speakers, i'll probably just grab some WGS speakers.


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## torndownunit

Mooh said:


> www.loudspeakers.ca has always done right by me. Waterloo, and they ship. Ask for Terry. Good service, and they know their stuff better than your average music store.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


Ya they are great to deal with and have great prices.


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## Wild Bill

Kapo_Polenton said:


> I understand the whole "support your economy" thing but damn, it is hard to get the stuff we need here in Canada. Even doing minor mods, its always ship this or that like an Ohm switch or osme faceplates. Right now if i need to buy or try anymore speakers, i'll probably just grab some WGS speakers.


Hey, I share your frustration. I spent my life selling electronic parts to manufacturers. I have a "better than most" perspective on the scene in Canada.

With tubehead parts and speakers, we're just too small a market in any given geographical area. How many guys do you think in Ottawa would buy a guitar speaker? How many would buy an output trannie? Remember that even if someone spends $100 on a speaker the net profit to the seller is only a small part of the purchase price.

Do YOU think you could make a living selling these parts?:smile:

There are a few guys trying hard and doing a good job. thetubestore.com is a purely Canadian outfit for tubes and caps. Mind you, they make their living on American orders. They likely couldn't pay the electricity bill from just Canadian orders.

I place at least one order a month of various parts to a stateside supplier. It's a pain to put up with the extra time and expense of Canada Customs/Post but that's just the way it is. It means more planning on my part. I try to keep stock of most everything I need for usual repairs and re-order before I run out. I can still get caught short on an oddball need but you can't do everything. thetubestore.com spoils me! I'm a dealer for their tubes and sell at their prices to my customers. They're only a 10 minute drive away. I keep a pair or two of 6L6's, EL34's, EL84's, 6V6's, 12AX7's and a 12AT7 or two on hand. Anything else and they've got me covered. Even so, I'm there sometimes 3 times a week!:smile:

I'm also a dealer for Eminence speakers. I echo that Terry, Eric and the boys are just great! As long as it's not too close to quitting time for the shipper to get my order together I always see my speakers the very next day.

Anyhow, the world is the way it is. My late younger brother always used to tell me to not be a rock against the waves. You only get ground down.

Be a surfboard!:smile:

:food-smiley-004:


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## mhammer

Hi Bill, regards from Ottawa.

The loudspeakers.ca site notes that they are a division of McBride. McBride makes speakers, and are one in the same as Marsland if I'm not mistaken. I've got a bunch of McBride/Marslands here and proudly use one of their 6.5" units in my little battery-powered amp. http://hammer.ampage.org/files/Miniamp.zip

Speakers are one of those things where people either know what they want or don't. I doubt you can lure someone into buying a speaker or a quartet of speakers by trying them out in a store, the way you can lure someone into buying a guitar or a pedal or an amp by letting them try it out. Ultimately, the sound of the speakers will be a function of what's pushing them and what they're sitting in, so the buyer has to come armed with some knowledge before purchase. Of course, if they purchase blind, then why the heck NOT buy via a website, particularly if someone specializes in speakers and has the inventory.

It is the same thing with tubes as well, I might add. Walk into your average Long and McQuades and the tube choices will be quite limited, and tech knowledge behind the desk fairly limited too. One is far better off to buy from somewhere like the Tube Store in Hamilton where the inventory is more extensive and the knowledge more finely tuned and up to date.

Let me point out, however, that major chains DO carry both tubes and speakers, but it's a bit like ice cream - if you want something other than chocolate, vanilla or strawberry, you're SOL. Let me also point out that if you live away from a major urban centre or buy your gear at a store that also gives lessons, chances are pretty good that your choice of amps, guitars and pedals will also be quite limited in terms of brans and stock. Many a small music store will not even *know* what a flanger is, let alone carry one, and if it ain't Boss, Samick, Turser, or some oddball Chinese brand you've never heard of, they've never heard of it either. So, its not just speakers.


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## Kapo_Polenton

The tubestore.com rules. Those guys ship incredibly fast. I am a going to be a client for life.


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## coyoteblue

It would be nice if larger stores like Long and McQuade did carry any lines of speakers but it's very hit and miss in Toronto. For example, even though the great "new" Eminence line has been out for a number of years, and they occasionally have had a couple in stock, most times when you call they say they've never heard of them, both in their guitar and amp repairs section. I war recently looking for a Ragin Cajun, a very popular speaker if internet discussion forums are any indication, and there wasn't one at any GTA store! Same for tubes. Long and McQuade has a few Groove Tubes and that's it. mhammer, which chains were you thinking of?


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## zdogma

coyoteblue said:


> It would be nice if larger stores like Long and McQuade did carry any lines of speakers but it's very hit and miss in Toronto. For example, even though the great "new" Eminence line has been out for a number of years, and they occasionally have had a couple in stock, most times when you call they say they've never heard of them, both in their guitar and amp repairs section. I war recently looking for a Ragin Cajun, a very popular speaker if internet discussion forums are any indication, and there wasn't one at any GTA store! Same for tubes. Long and McQuade has a few Groove Tubes and that's it. mhammer, which chains were you thinking of?


The L&M here in ottawa carries quite a few. There are always 10+ different emi speakers in stock, and a few Celestions.


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## coyoteblue

Stranger and stranger in Toronto, but then I have my own story of not being to sell a great speaker, a Ragin Cajun, the one I referred to above, I bought at Songbird before they closed. I ended up not needing it and I can't sell it on this forum, Craigslist or Kijiji, unless I give it away, it seems. Half price offers but nothing reasonable. Bill has a point. Maybe Ottawa has more experimental guitarists than Toronto?!


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## leeds

L & M in Toronto can prety much get anything. I got a C-Rex a while back and it turned out to be a better deal than I would of got if I bought it online.
m


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## mhammer

coyoteblue said:


> mhammer, which chains were you thinking of?


There aren't many chains in Canada of the same clout like Guitar Center or Mars Music and a bunch of others in the U.S.. We have L & M, already mentioned, which would appear to be the largest, but other include Steve's and I think Mother's Music has a few locations.


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## Seakayak

I bought a speaker from Weber... I chose it based on reading other peoples opinions. Kinda risky buying that way, but luckily it turned out to be what I wanted.


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## SkunkWorks

zdogma said:


> The L&M here in ottawa carries quite a few. There are always 10+ different emi speakers in stock, and a few Celestions.


L&M here in Edmonton can get pretty much any Eminence or Celestion in within the same week if they're not in stock.


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## torndownunit

I personally just don't see the point in buying them from somewhere like L&M when a place like loudspeakers.ca exists. Their prices are better, and they actually know about the products they are selling.


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## mhammer

Which is precisely why you don't/won't find much speaker inventory in the music stores.


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## Mooh

Speakers are slow moving, space using, and relatively expensive inventory, which don't look sexy on the shelf to most buyers. Retailers don't often take the time to research the product, never mind know what to recommend regarding wattage and ohms. This is particularly true of smaller shops, in my experience.

www.loudspeakers.ca just happens to have figured this out many years ago, and have made a nice business serving folks like us.

Peace, Mooh.


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## torndownunit

It would be cool if a company carried a little more brand diversity. I'd like a Canadian source for Weber and Jensen. I don't think we'd save a ton on them, but at least we wouldn't have to worry about importing them.


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## SkunkWorks

torndownunit said:


> I personally just don't see the point in buying them from somewhere like L&M when a place like loudspeakers.ca exists. Their prices are better, and they actually know about the products they are selling.


Actually, I only ever bought one speaker there and it was an Eminence so it was cheap and I needed it right away... if it was Celestions I probably wouldn't buy them brand new from L&M... in fact I prefer not to buy new speakers at all... I want them broken in and don't have much opportunity to run at the kind of volumes for extended periods of time that requires. I don't care at all if my seller knows the product when it comes to speakers because I already know what I want when I'm buying them and wouldn't rely on someone else's description when it comes to this stuff... it's too subjective... I've heard Vintage 30's decribed in what to me was the exact opposite of how I'd describe them. Speakers are the one thing I'd rather buy used (unless they're Hellatones) and have the seller keep his opinion to himself.


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## Geek

torndownunit said:


> I'd like a Canadian source for Weber and Jensen.


I'm an authorized reseller of Weber and Jensen


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## dufe32

www.steamcomusic.com

It's in Winnipeg, great and fast service.


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## Pauls2

Geek said:


> I'm an authorized reseller of Weber and Jensen


Can you send me off an email - I'm in Vancouver and in need of some Jensen speakers.

[email protected]


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## torndownunit

Can a Canadian online retailer carrying Weber even compete though? I know they can get them cheaper, but they still have to pay shipping, taxes and duties right? And then we would have to pay shipping costs again to get the speaker from them. In the end do you save anything?

I happen to have insanely good lucking finding used Webers luckily. That's the one thing about using forum classifieds. There are tons of amp tinkerers around.


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## SkunkWorks

torndownunit said:


> Can a Canadian online retailer carrying Weber even compete though? I know they can get them cheaper, but they still have to pay shipping, taxes and duties right? And then we would have to pay shipping costs again to get the speaker from them. In the end do you save anything?
> 
> I happen to have insanely good lucking finding used Webers luckily. That's the one thing about using forum classifieds. There are tons of amp tinkerers around.


That brings up an interesting question. Interesting to me because alot of the things I've bought at L&M over the past year were either dollar for dollar the same price they sell for in the US at the known discount chains or were actually cheaper. I've been wondering how they do that... I figured they still must have to pay shipping and duties etc.


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## Geek

Hi,

There is no duty on a Weber because they are made in the USA.

You pay PST and GST at the post office. *maybe* a small CBSA handling fee if they open the box. I have never had them do that for a onsey speaker.

What gets complex is to save shipping, I have the speakers drop-shipped to the customer. Sometimes they charge the customer the PST and GST at the post office, other times I get sent the bill.

Jensen speakers are different. The wholesaler sends them to me and won't drop ship. They are made in Italy, so there's PST, GST, duty and a CBSA fee (I usually get hit $8-$10 for that and it's taxable to boot).

@ Pauls2, will do!

Cheers!


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## SkunkWorks

Geek said:


> Hi,
> 
> There is no duty on a Weber because they are made in the USA.
> 
> snip


Not sure I follow that... US goods are the things I DO have to pay duty on. What am I missing there?


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## torndownunit

NAFTA. There is no duty on US made products. I forgot about that RE the Webers.

Are you getting the couriers 'brokerage fees' mixed up with duty?


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## Robert1950

SkunkWorks said:


> Not sure I follow that... US goods are the things I DO have to pay duty on. What am I missing there?


Don't know how they do the taxes in Alberta, but usually it's PST/GST or HST, plus Brokerage Fee. If there is duty, it is on top of taxes and brokerage.


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## SkunkWorks

torndownunit said:


> NAFTA. There is no duty on US made products. I forgot about that RE the Webers.
> 
> Are you getting the couriers 'brokerage fees' mixed up with duty?


Nope, I try to avoid any courier that charges rediculous brokerage fees like UPS and am well aware of what a UPS separate brokerage fee is. I saw a really great deal on a mic on musiciansfriend and seeing that they would only ship Fedex ground to Canada, I called Fedex and Canada Customs to see what my final total would be. I was going to get charged brokerage, duty and GST... in the end it wouldn't have been worth it so I passed on it. But even via USPS to Canada Post I do get charged a small amount of duty and GST on anything I buy off ebay that comes in from the US... always have... that's why I always thought this supposed free trade is a bunch of BS. (actually sometimes Canada Post will skip it... I had a long conversation one day with my postal carrier and she said it depends on the mood of the worker you get that day, sometimes they'll just let stuff slide through).

Another thing that I find rediculous is the fact that we have to pay GST on used goods from the US. I called Canada Customs to find out why... they said we have to pay GST on anything from the US whether new or used if it's the first time it's come across the border. But how the hell do THEY know whether it's the first time it's come across or not? What if I buy a guitar off ebay that was originally sold in Canada, put up on ebay, bought by a US citizen, and bought back off ebay by myself and brought back to Canada?


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## Geek

SkunkWorks said:


> Not sure I follow that... US goods are the things I DO have to pay duty on. What am I missing there?


Fill out the form on the back of the duty invoice. You'll get it fully refunded in about three weeks.

Cheers!


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## SkunkWorks

Geek said:


> Fill out the form on the back of the duty invoice. You'll get it fully refunded in about three weeks.
> 
> Cheers!


Ya I just talked this over with my brother-in-law and sister to try and remember why we never bothered with that even though we knew about it... I sometimes use their puter upstairs to make ebay purchases on their account to buy myself some time because of when their credit card bill is due compared to mine. In most cases the items weren't that expensive so we figured it wasn't worth the risk of potentially bringing attention to other items they just let through (wink)... we had had a run of good luck so I thought it would be bad karma. My Les Paul is a different story though, it almost might have been worth it. I remember her giving me shit a few times when I wanted to do an ebay transaction on her account because apparently there is a ceratin dollar amount per year that is duty free and I was using hers up... it's supposedly not very much, like a hundred bucks or something... would have to check on that.


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## coyoteblue

I find that CanadaPost will skip tax on smaller parcels that a carrier can put in his bag. If the package has to be delivered by truck, no mercy.


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## Guest

Look on E-bay for Eminence speakers. There's someone on there who lives minutes away from the factory in Kentucky I believe who can get you anything from Eminence at rock bottom prices. I got 4 12" Governors for under $400 shipped and they are as good as Classic 30's.


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## Emohawk

torndownunit said:


> I personally just don't see the point in buying them from somewhere like L&M when a place like loudspeakers.ca exists. Their prices are better, and they actually know about the products they are selling.


Actually, I just ordered an Eminence Texas Heat from L&M/Musicstop today and the prices were the same as loudspeakers.ca...


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## Geek

coyoteblue said:


> I find that CanadaPost will skip tax on smaller parcels that a carrier can put in his bag. If the package has to be delivered by truck, no mercy.


Then my carrier has a bag smaller than a wallet then :wink:


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## coyoteblue

Just trying to make sense of how random taxing can be! To add insult to injury I've just discovered that US buyers pay no tax when buying from us! We supposedly protect our retailers by having the $20 tax threshold and then pay more for the product anyways. This is particularly frustrating when our government protects our retailers from being undercut by US prices for products they don't even sell in Canada.


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## Geek

coyoteblue said:


> This is particularly frustrating when our government protects our retailers from being undercut by US prices for products they don't even sell in Canada.


Unfortunately, I haven't seen a lick of this protection.

We small businesses get the carp beat out of us just as bad as the consumer :sport-smiley-002:


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## coyoteblue

I wrote whoever was the minister responsible for customs a few years ago and asked why we have a $20 threshold for buying stuff from the States before paying taxes, while the US has no such threshold, and was told that business groups had lobbied the government to have the $20 limit for "free" imports to protect their businesses. That's the theory anyways. I suppose it applies to larger businesses who want to have a monopoly on their market, as in the recent case with car price differences between Canada and the US. 

I can see that this policy doesn't help smaller businesses, since they're never going to have a monopoly in the first place, since they can't afford to stock US products in the first place, for example, Weber speakers. So, ironically, consumers are paying extra to bring these speakers into the county to protect our businesses and most businesses aren't being protected anyways because they don't have the speakers in the first place!

The $20 is most obnoxious when you buy used products. Why should we pay tax on a used item, for which tax has been payed one or more times already? The US gov't seems to understand this is unfair, but then Americans are much more tax averse than we are, and this has both good and bad consequences. 

The US has about 10 times as many people, but seem to have about 50 times more places to buy stuff for musicians. Whatever the reason is, that's probably why stores here can't afford to stock as wide a range of equipment, particularly noticeable when it comes to speakers, amps and tubes.


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## Geek

That's the problem with such "protection" charges..... no one benefits except the big companies that overcharge the heck out of things anyway 

There should be no charges for items not readily available here or there's no competition.

Despite the fact small businesses make up the majority of the commerce here, we always have been viewed as an annoyance to be knocked out of business every chance possible


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## bogoboy

+100 
The tubestore is incredible for service and knowledge. I ordered tubes on Friday and were at my door on Monday morning! This was the second time I've ordered from them.


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## SkunkWorks

jroberts said:


> Odd. I would estimate that I've made close to 100 purchases of guitar gear and recording gear over the years from the U.S., and I've never once been charged duty on any US-manufactured product. GST? Yes. Brokerage fee? Yes. Duty? Never.


I'll go back and double check on it if I still have a record of my purchases or the boxes stuff came in. I know my sister and my buddy have always factored it in as well when doing the ebay thing because I'm pretty sure we've all usually been dinged duty on top of the GST and the small amount amount of brokerage when going through the postal service. I'm wondering how they even would know whether it's US manufactered or not. I'll start getting sellers to declare that fact if that's how it works.


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## 4x12

Mooh said:


> www.loudspeakers.ca has always done right by me. Waterloo, and they ship. Ask for Terry. Good service, and they know their stuff better than your average music store.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.



+1

I deal with Eric and always good service and fast shipping.


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## Celestion101

Hi Guys,
We're always happy to sell speakers in Canada, it's an important market for us! Availability really comes down to the distributors and there willingness to stock product. L&M does buy from our US Distributor as do a few others, but I am not sure what kind ofnumbers they do (as I work with the manufactures). Email me at [email protected] if there is something you cannot find and I'll put you in touch with someone who can help. As you can imagine I recieve a crazy amount of email, so please don't flood me with questions that can easily be answered through your search function! :rockon:

Cheers,
Rick


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## JamesPeters

SkunkWorks said:


> I'm wondering how they even would know whether it's US manufactered or not.


If there's no NAFTA declaration included with the shipment, they presume the item isn't made in North America and add duty as they see fit.


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## SkunkWorks

JamesPeters said:


> If there's no NAFTA declaration included with the shipment, they presume the item isn't made in North America and add duty as they see fit.


Wish I had known that. I wonder how complicated it would be to get a US seller to include one... some ebay sellers won't ship to here because it's apparently too much "hassle" to do even the 15 seconds of regular paper work at the post office.... from what I've seen on my packages, it's a few check boxes.


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## SkunkWorks

jroberts said:


> Formal NAFTA declarations are only necessary for commercial shipments. For non-commercial purchasers, as long as the seller says on the shipping form that its manufactured in the U.S., that usually suffices.


Thanks, I will remember that from now on


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## JamesPeters

jroberts said:


> Formal NAFTA declarations are only necessary for commercial shipments. For non-commercial purchasers, as long as the seller says on the shipping form that its manufactured in the U.S., that usually suffices.


Good luck with that. I highly recommend a proper NAFTA declaration. Mentioning "made in USA" on the invoice hasn't been sufficient in a lot of cases, not just for me but for many people I know of who've shipped both ways.


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## JamesPeters

jroberts said:


> I'm talking about specifying "country of origin" on the shipping documents, not just on the invoice. You don't need the formal declaration from the manufacturer. It's not legally required, so it shouldn't be an issue. I've had around around 100 non-commercial purchases from the U.S. with no formal declarations and no problems so far.


Well anything is possible, but with the experiences I've had, a NAFTA is par for the course or I'll most likely be having to get a refund from the broker. I have plenty of receipts to show for it too. :smile: 

I'm not arguing what *should* be required either. For what it's worth, I've had some gems of conversations with brokers (FedEx's in particular lately) about what's required so that they don't charge me PST on incoming shipments. If the person at the broker doesn't quite understand what they're doing or don't care to look for all the "dotted i's and crossed t's" (instead of being smacked in the face by a NAFTA form, for example), there's a good chance you'll be billed for something you shouldn't. Getting it back usually isn't a problem with FedEx or UPS, but with Canada Post's broker you can forget it.


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