# The Page/Plant Courthouse Tour



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Looks like they're going to court over possible copyright infringement

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...age-to-face-jury-over-copyright-a6979876.html

Personally, I think there are far more serious, ahhhhh, copyright infringements that they could be charged with. I love the band - they were a huge influence to me growing up. But those blatant rip-offs never sat well with me. Just give the original writers credit and some money, guys. Squeeze the lemon, sell a mansion, it won't kill you.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Spirit's Taurus vs Led Zepplin Stairway to Heaven, I think its a stretch. I'll bet there are hundreds of musical similarities that are coincidence.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Just heard a comparison on CTV. If I'm on the jury, it a big "sorry, next case".


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

nkjanssen said:


> The bands performed together several times before LZ wrote "Stairway". There's no question they knew the song. How much similarity is there? I hear a lot. The intro melody of "Stairway", which is one of the key themes of the song, is practically identical to one of the key melodies in "Taurus". To my ear, there is no question they copied it. Their established history of plagiarism doesn't really help their argument either. They've resolved at least four other infringement cases by granting a co-write to the person they infringed. I don't see why this one would end any differently.
> 
> ...of course no die-hard Led Zepplin fan will hear any similarity whatsoever. The best Page and Plant can hope for if they go to trial is to have the jury stacked with fans. Short of that, they'd be crazy to let it go to trial.


Yeah we can say that the intro is almost identical. And just about every new country song that has come out in the last 5 years has an intro thats identical, lyrics that are the same and chord progressions the same.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

nkjanssen said:


> The bands performed together several times before LZ wrote "Stairway". There's no question they knew the song.



Even if they performed together (that is disputed) there is no proof that Zeppelin ever heard the song. To say "there is no question" is simply wrong.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

I've yet to decide whether I agree it's plagiarism or not.
But I agree with nkjanssen that it's pretty foolish to let this get to trial. Considering that the proceeds will go to the _late _Randy California's charitable foundation, Zep better hope they have some fans on the jury.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

nkjanssen said:


> Except there is ample evidence that they performed together at least five times at shows where Spirit played "Taurus".


What I read yesterday said that some members of Spirit claimed they played together, but that those claims had not been proven.

And why is some trustee for someone's estate pursuing this lawsuit after the individual's death when the individual said himself that he had no interest in pursuing a lawsuit and that Zep could have the song if it did, in fact, come from his song?

Besides, blues artists have been stealing from each other since the genre began without anyone complaining. Why are people complaining about Zep? Hell, I read (or saw) an interview with Buddy guy in which he said that he once told Clapton that he liked his new record (cannot remember which one at the moment) and Clapton replied that he should because he had stolen everything from Guy!

As the old saying goes - good authors borrow, great authors steal. This is nothing new and this trustee is simply trying to capitalize on the success of Zeppelin's song.





> It doesn't take more than that to establish access. And access is what has to be proved.



No, access is not what has to be proved. What has to be proved is that they heard the song. Having access and actually hearing the song are not the same thing.

You are stating things as if they are facts when they are not facts and are nothing more than your opinion.




> This is like discussing religion, though. Most people already have their minds made up



You are a prime example of that.




> Not really any point in discussing it, frankly.



And yet you continue to do so.


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## leftysg (Mar 29, 2008)

You could also agree that Ian Anderson's statement's that Hotel California happened after they toured together and the Eagles heard Tull's regular sound check of We Used to Know. No lawsuit but seems awfully close and the timeline fits.

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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

This may sound like a frivolous lawsuit, but there is more than we've recently heard about. I've been following the story for about 2 years.
There is apparently documented evidence of them playing Spirit material, and opening for them on tour.
Here is a pretty good article with more detail than the recent stories:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...y-to-heaven-vs-dot-spirits-taurus-a-reckoning

I agree with the lawyer who says they really don't want to let this get to a jury.
Let me spin it for you. Guitar player who never got his due/fame/financial reward dies trying to save his son. One of the most well known modern songs "coincidentally" opens in the same manner as a song he wrote. The band that got rich & famous for "their version" has priors appropriating and plagiarizing other songs (some of which they paid out to settle). And the two bands played tour dates together where said "originator" song was played. A charitable foundation that gives money to schools for music ed. will receive proceeds if it goes in Spirit's favour.
Getting good yet? 
How much does our culture love to tear down what we have built up? Is it Zep's turn?


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

Pure Hogwash. What next the A minor chord is under copyright. The third scale step is totally different between the two songs.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Forty four (44) years have passed and now the lawyers have a new case and an chance to make lots of money. Sounds like a money grab to me.

For anyone that hasn't heard the 2 songs together, have a listen.






And nkjanssen. Your opinions are always welcome and you have the right to express them.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

I like both bands and both songs. I'm OK with that.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

Zep said that they wrote Dazed and Confused until the original version surfaced:


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Guitar101 said:


> And nkjanssen. Your opinions are always welcome and you have the right to express them.



Of course he does, but if he is going to express them he had better expect them to be challenged. This is especially true when it is clear from his posts that he doesn't like Zeppelin and dismisses anyone who disagrees with him as being a Zeppelin fan who cannot be objective. It seems that he only wants to hear from those who agree with his positions.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

Eric Clapton better be looking over his shoulder he has a little run down of the A minor cord in the song Old Love.Its at 1:08. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYeQ9lbEFYE


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Distortion said:


> Eric Clapton better be looking over his shoulder _he has a little run down of the A minor cord in_ the song Old Love.Its at 1:08. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYeQ9lbEFYE


Heck, I have one myself for a song I wrote. I think I'll be OK as long as I don't make any money with it.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I've listened to Zeppelin a lot--and all that--I have no problem admitting when they did borrow/steal/rip off other songs--there were some very blatant ones (Boogie with Stu is Ooh My Head & The Lemon Song is The Killing Floor--among other tunes (Maybe they were ahead of their time & sampling/doing mashups?) & then Dazed Confused, as above. 

So some dubious history--and Page offers the lame excuse that Plant forgot to change the words--or they would have been okay.

But to say that they ripped off Spirit is ridiculous.
maybe Page heard the song and liked the intro & decided to try something in a similar style?
But EVERYBODY who has written a song has done that. They may not have done it very well, but they've done it at least once or twice.
But that is not plagiarism.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

They are only 11 notes, so after a few billion songs, you gotta think some patterns are going to reappear. These are tough cases (sometimes) but I don't think this one holds much water.

The problem is the defendants have become the poster children of repeat offenders / plagiarists. And you know how the court of public opinion goes. Hell, they may as well get Joe Strummer (RIP) as judge and jury.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I don't think it's right - but I also think, given the circumstances, Zep will lose. Best to put the right spin on it and donate a million or so to the fund and move on.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

It could even have been an unconscious thing. Try writing a song that has no influence whatsoever by anything else you heard/liked recently. 
But I agree with althumbs, the odds are not in their favour with a jury and the circumstances. Pay up and bury it.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

jb welder said:


> *It could even have been an unconscious thing.* Try writing a song that has no influence whatsoever by anything else you heard/liked recently.
> But I agree with althumbs, the odds are not in their favour with a jury and the circumstances. Pay up and bury it.


Like that Partridge Family episode where Danny, while sleeping, would hear Keith writing music next door and then magically Danny would come up with the same 'new song' the next morning. 

I tell ya, that show was so prophetic. A rockband as a microcosm of our whole culture and society. Plus, Tracy ruled the tambourine.


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

check out the 1969 califormia bootlegs, Zep were riffing on Fresh Garbage too













I believe Spirit opened for Zep


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Stairway resembles Taurus as much as a bra-zillion songs resemble other songs. All of modern pop should be drowning in litigation. For fucks sake, all music is derivative. Have a listen to the descending line against a minor chord in My Funny Valentine (copyright sometime in the '30s I guess, Rogers & Hart), it's bears as much resemblance to both songs in question.

Did Ritchie Blackmore have a celebrity crush on Astrud Gilberto? Maria Quiet, from a record called Look To The Rainbow (yeah, Rainbow):






Descending chromatic bass lines under minor chords (and major chords like in Hello, Goodbye by the Beatles) are common as sin as go back in history at least as far as the baroque era. Taurus milks that idea, but Stairway at least adds an ascending treble melody. Key matters not a wit, A minor is as guitar and keyboard friendly at it comes. Wind instruments (and synthesized winds) in the time of these songs were also popular. The trouble is that people confuse arrangement for composition a lot.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Here's one that I found a bit disappointing. One of my favourite solo intros of all time created by the Doors, stolen by Kiss, and finally stolen by Pearl Jam:


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

If Spirit opened for Zep back in the late 60's, perhaps they heard Page playing the decending Am chord and copied him. Would be a good reason to leave this alone for 44 years which they did.

Hey, it could have happened that way.^)@#


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## SG-Rocker (Dec 30, 2007)

The members of Led Zep were clearly inspired by the black blues musicians of the early-mid 1900's.
It has been very clearly proven that the Zeps brazenly passed off previously recorded music as their own.
These blues men were never:

1) Fairly compensated for their infringed material
2) Given any songwriting credit (which probably would have meant more to them than the money)

Jimmy and Robert planted (Ha no pun intended) a big shitty karma grenade in doing this. 
I personally hope to see them take a hard hit on this for two reasons:

1) It would get people talking about what they did, and cast a light on just how many others were plagarized; and 
2) It just might get people listening to the original recordings and get those musicians some credit - albeit posthumous.

I am not a Zep hater and love the music they produced 
I do however acknowledge their lack of ethics and that tarnishes their product.

Search YouTube for just how many songs were blatently ripped, it's disappointing.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Young musicians at the time of the release of at least the first few LZ albums had neither the legal sense or the business savvy to understand what they were setting up and the repercussions thereof in the relatively distant future. Page was likely the most experienced in this regard, but still had no formal training in such matters. And though I believe there was no attempt to plagiarize, no one would have thought to research the matter or search for possibilities...and it's not like they could have Googled it anyway.

I would also argue that their management had a much bigger hand in it all than the musicians. However, in the end it will be the musicians who suffer by way of harm to their reputations, even if it's only the non-fans and the folks who don't know enough about music to make an informed decision who judge them for it. 

This is one of the growing pains of the (especially) popular music world. The musicians risk the most and suffer the most for that risk. 

Art.

Peace, Mooh.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

bolero said:


> I believe Spirit opened for Zep





Guitar101 said:


> If Spirit opened for Zep back in the late 60's


For Zep's first ever U.S. show ('68), they opened, followed by Spirit, then Vanilla Fudge. In '68 and '69, they played more shows with Spirit, sometimes before, sometimes after.
According to the linked article, they started playing "Fresh Garbage" 4 days after that first show. It also seems Randy California never cared much about the whole "stairway" issue.
I posted the link to the same article earlier, but will post it again as it's a very good read.

Stairway to Heaven: The Song Remains Pretty Similar


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Breaking: 'Stairway to Heaven' Is Actually In the Public Domain

Like I said, it's way older than folks think. Page, like others, borrowed from lots of sources, deliberately or otherwise. McCartney's Blackbird is another example of classical guitar repertoire rip-off.

Peace, Mooh.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Yea, I think any musical plagiarism is tough to judge - and that's ultimately what it comes down to, judgement. The tiniest change or modulation can make it just different enough to be it's own thing.

But copying the words, in some cases word-for-word? They should have realized they were going to inspire people go back and listen to the recordings that inspired them, and then ----- busted! But who knows? It was a different time. I wasn't even 10 at the time and living quite literally in the middle of nowhere, so I didn't know shit from shinola about what was going on.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Mooh said:


> Breaking: 'Stairway to Heaven' Is Actually In the Public Domain
> 
> Like I said, it's way older than folks think.


The author of that DMN article is kind of sticking his neck out to declare "case closed", does he not know this is a jury trial? Anything can happen. The judge has already suggested a bit more specific criteria that may exclude those previous works mentioned in the DMN article:

"While it is true that a descending chromatic four-chord progression is a common convention that abounds in the music industry, the similarities here transcend this core structure," the judge declared in a 20-page opinion. "The descending bass line is played at the same pitch, repeated twice, and separated by a short bridge in both songs."
(For Led Zeppelin, an Uncertain Legal Future Over 'Stairway to Heaven')

Anyway, not trying to be arguementative, just enjoying following this story. Seems there is plenty of room for the "chewbacca defense" in this case!


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

jb welder said:


> The author of that DMN article is kind of sticking his neck out to declare "case closed", does he not know this is a jury trial? Anything can happen. The judge has already suggested a bit more specific criteria that may exclude those previous works mentioned in the DMN article:
> 
> "While it is true that a descending chromatic four-chord progression is a common convention that abounds in the music industry, the similarities here transcend this core structure," the judge declared in a 20-page opinion. "The descending bass line is played at the same pitch, repeated twice, and separated by a short bridge in both songs."
> (For Led Zeppelin, an Uncertain Legal Future Over 'Stairway to Heaven')
> ...


I'll bite. What's a 'chewbacca defense'?


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2016)




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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Oddly enough, the "chewbacca defense", while riffing on Cochran, was actually about Chef's copyright case over a song. 

Chewbacca defense - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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