# Craigslist ad, made deal but then it all went sour!!! READ!!!



## NIK0

So I stumbled upon a Craigslist ad for a 2x10 Dr. Z cab that was in mint condition and in blonde tolex (what I was looking for).

I sent an email and got a reply within nano seconds. I'm really tempted to reveal his full name and contact info but I will restrain myself until the general GC public tell me to do otherwise. 

The guy is asking $250 or best offer...I gave him a call this morning and told him that I could give him $200 for it cash and would pick it up. It is a hour drive for me but considering I really wanted this type of cab it was worth it.

He agreed to the deal and emailed me his directions and confirmed that picking it up Sunday was cool...DONE DEAL!!!

I get an email 6 hours later stating that it was sold...it was sold!!! Thinking it was a reply to someone who he thought was a different buyer I emailed him saying that I would see him in the late afternoon. His reply was that it was sold and that he is sorry.

What the [email protected]!!! Really? Is this how humans do business? Nevertheless I was super pissed and didn't believe it was real so I emailed him and sure enough this caker made a deal after making a deal. Isn't EBAY an auction house? 

He totally firmed it up with me over the phone and said that the cab is mine for $200 and that he looked forward to seeing me on Sunday (Tomorrow).

Ya...I am [email protected] venting...you better believe it! People like this in my opinion should be exposed and business with him should be black listed all together. I HATE those who make a deal and by chance find someone else who offers more, then they [email protected] the original guy and go with more money. 

Listen, CASH is king, no doubt about that! But principle and morals is paramount...what the [email protected] was he thinking? At the very least give me a call and explain the situation to give me the opportunity to match the offer.

Am I venting? Ya you better believe it!!! In 5 years of doing the B&S thing and making so many friends this was the first and most bitte experience.

His last email was classic...a bit of a preamble: I told him "you could have called me to tell me that someone else has made another offer! You agreed to my $200 offer, is this EBAY?"

His response? Lol, "This guy who picked it up was named Nick, I thought it was you!, I'm sorry!"

I'm done venting, I just want to hear from the rest of you...you opinion? Would you like to do business with him? If not, be more than happy to reveal who the guy is!


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## GuitarsCanada

The moral of this story is... you should have given him the $250. The dude that picked it up did.


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## keto

Ya, it sucks but it's not the end of the world or worthy of high blood pressure. $250 is a great deal on that cab, you did it to yourself in part. And, like you said, cash is king. It's not like you drove to his place and _then_ got the news (which happens a lot, be thankfull for small mercies).


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## NIK0

GuitarsCanada said:


> The moral of this story is... you should have given him the $250. The dude that picked it up did.


Ok, you're sitting on your computer obviously moderating all posts. Lets just say I give you a call and you agree to sell me your cab for $200 but you were asking $250...but you agreed to $200!

You mean to tell me the moral of the story is what? You just told me that $200 was cool. Your opinion on this will affect all of your Buy and Sell listers so be careful...I think you need to take a step back and think about this.

When you make a deal, it's a deal...in this case I hope if I make one with the "GuitarsCanada" guy that he would honor it!!! Look, it has never happened to me before and I am sure that anyone including "GuitarsCanada" would honr a deal once it has been made.

I don't need some stupid comment like I should have paid him asking price! What kind of comment is that???


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## nitehawk55

Yeah that's dissapointing but honestly , $250 for that cab would have been a great deal , he really should have been asking $450 . 
It's likely he got other offers saying they would give him the asking price or more and to be honest I couldn't blame him for regretting he said he would sell for $200 .

He was good enough to contact you , maybe what he did was wrong but it's a free market and a person does have a right to reject an offer made over the phone , it's not like there was a handshake or contract signed .


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## bagpipe

I always make it crystal clear to potential buyers that the first person to show up at my door, with the cash, is taking it home. I ain't holding it for anybody. Too many instances of "Man, just hold it for a couple of days - I'm good for it" and then they don't show up.


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## Guest

Without consideration paid there is no contract. You should have shot him some cash to seal the deal. I've sold stuff out from under slow potential buyers before. Sucks, but when you want it gone it's first to the door with cash in hand.


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## greco

NIKO..do you know if he is also a GC forum member?

In my opinion, he is a total jerk for going back on his word. It is breaking a verbal contract. He knew it and went for the quick $50.00 (or whatever).

Dave


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## Drazden

I've been on both sides of this fence before; on the seller's side, I was essentially forced by karma to man up and explain the situation to the guy I had agreed to sell it to before hand, that a better offer had come from a guy who was willing to make it a lot easier for me to unload this thing. The disappointed guy was very reasonable about it, too, aware that he had had the opportunity to come and had chosen to wait. 

But I emailed him BEFORE I sold it to someone else!

On the other side, I had a deal all firmed up for a GREAT deal on a Mesa/Boogie F-50. The guy's asking price was quite low, and I was the first one out of the gate to email him. I was going to go the following morning to pick up the amp; about 2am, I get an email from him, "Oh, sorry, it's gone." What?! Someone sniped me, driving down to Toronto from Ajax in the middle of the night to take this deal on the amp.

The kicker on that one was the guy who bought it immediately tried to flip it on kijiji, and probably did so successfully. In my correspondence with the guy I had wanted to buy it from, I had to refrain from rubbing it in and letting him know if he'd have just sent me an email, I'd have been glad to add a few hundred bucks more to sweeten the deal.


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## torndownunit

iaresee said:


> Without consideration paid there is no contract. You should have shot him some cash to seal the deal. I've sold stuff out from under slow potential buyers before. Sucks, but when you want it gone it's first to the door with cash in hand.


Ya the problem is dealing with people on Craigslist can be a pain. People flake out on sales all the time. They ask you to hold items and don't show up. I let every person who contacts me know I have to go with a 'first to come with cash get's it policy'. If you don't adopt a policy like that on Craigslist/Kijiji you will likely get burned...several times. I know it's crappy for those of us who are trusting people, but it's the way it is on those sites.

I understand your pain, but I would never hold an item for anyone for more than a few hours. Never mind more than a day. And I sell the item for the best price I can get for it.


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## NIK0

keto said:


> Ya, it sucks but it's not the end of the world or worthy of high blood pressure. $250 is a great deal on that cab, you did it to yourself in part. And, like you said, cash is king. It's not like you drove to his place and _then_ got the news (which happens a lot, be thankfull for small mercies).


Keto, look, no blood pressure on my part  I'm not pissed but I'm pissed (if you get my drift).

If you told me that $200 was "fair" and you said "I will see you tomorrow and that it's sold!" Would you not be at the very least surprised by this final outcome?

Based on your comments...we need to change our asking prices..

I propose a line like "your offer subject to sellers judgment and opportunity to make more money at a moments notice."

Hey Guitars Canada guy...could you change your Buy and Sell section to an EBAY style section where an offer (although accepted) is not valid until the specified bidding time has expired? Call it GCBay! Kidding 

That won't happen...we have a great system here where a community of musicians talk to each other, sell each other gear and offer advice on various aspects that relate to our lifestyle. I am only venting on a one in 1 million that could pull somehting like this off.

Keto, I know you wouldn't do this to anyone...nor anyone else on this site (I hope). I am simply venting on this particular deal which I am sure that this guy has realized what he did. 

In my opinion, my word is everything...my whole life has been based on that and I am sure that most if not all of you are on the same page.


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## nitehawk55

greco said:


> NIKO..do you know if he is also a GC forum member?
> 
> In my opinion, he is a total jerk for going back on his word. It is breaking a verbal contract. He knew it and went for the quick $50.00 (or whatever).
> 
> Dave


Verbal contract...is there such a thing to a complete stranger over the phone...( really ) ??

I've been burned a number of times on CL and Kijiji with the "I'll take it" and the person never shows . 

Again , I'm not saying what he did was right but a person does have a right to change his mind . I'm betting he got his $250 or more .


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## NIK0

greco said:


> NIKO..do you know if he is also a GC forum member?
> 
> In my opinion, he is a total jerk for going back on his word. It is breaking a verbal contract. He knew it and went for the quick $50.00 (or whatever).
> 
> Dave


Look guys I am reading everyone's comments...and THEY ARE ALL VALID!!! 

In the end, all of you except for a couple are missing the point. This was a business transaction and those of you who say that your word isn't good I suggest you no longer conduct business transactions on this site.

I offer $200, you say ok, I see you tomorrow, you say I cannot wait to meet you, 4 hours later you say sorry but I decided to sell it to someone else...well is this a cool deal?

I'm going to leave this one alone. There is a reason why some of use are on the top list in iTrader...trust me when I say I have had better offers after firming up a deal but my word/deal is king.


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## NIK0

nitehawk55 said:


> Verbal contract...is there such a thing to a complete stranger over the phone...( really ) ??
> 
> I've been burned a number of times on CL and Kijiji with the "I'll take it" and the person never shows .
> 
> Again , I'm not saying what he did was right but a person does have a right to change his mind . I'm betting he got his $250 or more .



For the record I offered him an EMT deposit...


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## nitehawk55

A members word on TGP is a totally different situation compared to a strangers voice over the phone , at least you know of that person somewhat .

I've had a couple situations on here too where the deal didn't go because the person changed their mind or never got in contact again....it happens .


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## NIK0

Anyways guys...I get it...Boooooooooooooooo

I never had a problem in the last 5 years of doing this...my impression after reading your comments is that I have been lucky somehow to avoid all of the sellers who have had bad ethics.


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## John Bartley

NIK0 said:


> I get an email 6 hours later stating that it was sold...it was sold!!!


A couple of things ....


 I sympathise, it's a pain dealing with someone who can't keep their word.

 I think we who are used to the old ways need to get used to a new reality which arrived riding on the coattails of an internet sales environment - that new reality is that sellers can be anonymous and can act in ways that previously would never have been tolerated in the good old days of real names, addresses and telephone numbers

 be happy that he at least emailed you to break the bad news.......you could have been one of the many people who don't find out that "your" new purchase was sold out from underneath you until you arrive at the door to pick it up.....yup, happens too often

cheers

John


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## mrmatt1972

I would feel upset too if I had a verbal agreement in place and the seller sold an item out from under me. I do like how many of the other members make it clear to buyers that it is 1st come 1st served. That's fair.

Sorry you got you hopes up, it' was a great deal even at 250.00


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## al3d

Upseting...sure is..happened ot me a few times actually. but like some have said, at 250$ was realy a bargain, and if you offered 200$..and he said yes, ok, somewhat a verbal contract, but not a true one realy, he had no obligation to keep it until he had $$$ in his hands. Mostlikely, someone offered him more as mentionned before. BUT..the logical thing would have been to contact you first and see if you would have raised your bid basicaly.


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## Fader

Sorry, I'm with Niko on this one.
Your word is your bond. The guy broke his word. 
He's lucky he don't live in Bartertown.
"Bust a deal, face the wheel."
The guy needs his ass kicked.


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## NIK0

I guess you are all right  That is not the way I will be doing business but you are all making a valid point!

I will be old school with my dealings...you say you buy, I take your word. It has worked for me thus far!




torndownunit said:


> Ya the problem is dealing with people on Craigslist can be a pain. People flake out on sales all the time. They ask you to hold items and don't show up. I let every person who contacts me know I have to go with a 'first to come with cash get's it policy'. If you don't adopt a policy like that on Craigslist/Kijiji you will likely get burned...several times. I know it's crappy for those of us who are trusting people, but it's the way it is on those sites.
> 
> I understand your pain, but I would never hold an item for anyone for more than a few hours. Never mind more than a day. And I sell the item for the best price I can get for it.


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## al3d

Fader said:


> Sorry, I'm with Niko on this one.
> Your word is your bond. The guy broke his word.
> He's lucky he don't live in Bartertown.
> "Bust a deal, face the wheel."
> The guy needs his ass kicked.


wow...seriously?....you would beat-up someone over something so trivial?....that's so ******* man


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## Fader

al3d said:


> wow...seriously?....you would beat-up someone over something so trivial?....that's so ******* man


You think lying and screwing over your fellow man is trivial?


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## NIK0

Fader said:


> You think lying and screwing over your fellow man is trivial?


Let me just make it absolutely crystal clear...if any of my fellow GC colleagues would make a deal with me...it is done with no exceptions.

What happened to me would never happen with someone who has old school morals...a deal (verbal or email) is a deal. Gawd, i'm shocked with some of the retorts on this threads


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## ajcoholic

NIK0 said:


> Anyways guys...I get it...Boooooooooooooooo
> 
> I never had a problem in the last 5 years of doing this...my impression after reading your comments is that I have been lucky somehow to avoid all of the sellers who have had bad ethics.



Bingo! There are a lot of people who do not honor their word. LOTS... 

I just tried to buy a guitar (at a good price) from a local guy who had it listed on a local site, a week or so ago. He said it was just sold (I offered him the asking price). Today I see its back up for 1/3 more than what he was originally asking. Probably realised he was asking too little...

But I am not going to burst a vein in my head over it. Relax, have a beer and forget it. Too many things in life to get worked up over that matter... not this stuff.

AJC


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## al3d

Fader said:


> You think lying and screwing over your fellow man is trivial?


screwing?...did the future buy loose anything?, appart from a deal, no. So thinking of beating someone over something like this!....realy!

i'm not saying the dude selling the cab did right be selling it after saying he would hold it for Niko, but is it worth getting violent over ? I seriously doubht it


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## ajcoholic

NIK0 said:


> Let me just make it absolutely crystal clear...if any of my fellow GC colleagues would make a deal with me...it is done with no exceptions.
> 
> What happened to me would never happen with someone who has old school morals...a deal (verbal or email) is a deal. Gawd, i'm shocked with some of the retorts on this threads


Me too. I value honesty and integrity over all else. I have agreed to buy something before and then wanted to bail, but paid the guy and learned my lesson. Likewise, I have sold things before and later realized I gave it away... but once a deal is cut, you should honour it.

Not everyone has the same ethics however, and there are a lot of people who think $$ is king, and that is something you have to deal with.

AJC


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## GuitarsCanada

NIK0 said:


> Ok, you're sitting on your computer obviously moderating all posts. Lets just say I give you a call and you agree to sell me your cab for $200 but you were asking $250...but you agreed to $200!
> 
> You mean to tell me the moral of the story is what? You just told me that $200 was cool. Your opinion on this will affect all of your Buy and Sell listers so be careful...I think you need to take a step back and think about this.
> 
> When you make a deal, it's a deal...in this case I hope if I make one with the "GuitarsCanada" guy that he would honor it!!! Look, it has never happened to me before and I am sure that anyone including "GuitarsCanada" would honr a deal once it has been made.
> 
> I don't need some stupid comment like I should have paid him asking price! What kind of comment is that???


Glad to see you have calmed down a bit since you posted this one. Let's cut right through the lard though shall we. We try our best here to weed out the undesirables. Those that would try to cheat people. We want honest guitar players and gear lovers here. The vast majority of members here are just that. If someone comes up lame, they get removed from this community. Given all of that, there is still a small opportunity for bad deals, but they are rare here IMO.

Anybody that is a regular gear trader/buyer that has been doing it for even a few years MUST understand that kijiji and CL are a gamble at the best of times. There is no such thing as a "sure thing" on those systems. It gets worse everyday. However, and to my original post, you must have known that $250 for that cab was ludicrous to begin with. In those cases you call the guy and say "I will be right over". Cash is king in those systems, first come first served. Yes, it was a rotten thing to do to you but he is looking for money and he does not know you and never will. 

I am not trying to be a smart ass but thats just the way it is out there. You can't expect any kind of loyalty to a buyer. The few times I have sold things on kijiji i get 15 emails. I tell them all the first person to show up with x amount of cash takes it. I would not have done what this guy did to you, but it does happen.

Last year I seen an XP100 on CL in Michigan. Pristine condition and the guy was asking $800. They sell on eBay for $900 to $1300 but mostly banged up ones and this one was like new. I called the guy and told him I would be there in the morning with his full asking price. Drove 5 hours down there like a madman. Knowing that someone could call the guy any moment and offer him more. I got it but until it was in my hands there was no deal.


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## nitehawk55

Some have mentioned "OLD SCHOOL" and honestly that is a problem in todays society . Trust , honor , responcability , respect , a lot of those and other foundations that effect our lives every day are not the same as they were . We are living in troubled times right now and it's effecting a lot of things , it's sad to see but I see it pretty much every day . Will it get better or worse ?...who knows , but this is just a small sample of how it effects us .

NIKO , I'm not saying what this guy did was right or wrong , it comes down to trust on both parties . He's probably been burned before too by someone who pledges to take an item and then gets left out in the cold . I can't say how many times I've been "kijijied" by would be buyers and sellers for that matter that made a deal go bad . The issue of trust is a big factor and I can see it swings both ways with on line deals and the underlying problem is someone who is honest and gives a damn about another person and doesn't just blow them off......it's getting to be a rarer quality . In one respect you were lucky this guy did contact you , a lot out there would have done nothing and then you would have really been pissed !

Good luck on finding another cab out there :smile:


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## Big_Daddy

Fader said:


> Sorry, I'm with Niko on this one.
> Your word is your bond. The guy broke his word.


I agree. A man is only as good as his word. Niko, you have every right to be pissed. I would be too.


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## Guest

You want my take on where the world is today?

This is a thread
From a guy
Who couldn't buy what he wanted to buy
For the exact price he wanted it at
At the exact time he wanted to have it
So he's mad​
Lots of ways to look at this. Think about that.


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## Guest

ajcoholic said:


> I value honesty and integrity over all else.


I value these traits too. So much so that if someone was _honest_ with me about having a change of heart on a transaction we were involved in I have the _integrity_ to work it out amicably. If that means backing out of the deal: so be it.

Ain't so black and white see?



> I have agreed to buy something before and then wanted to bail, but paid the guy and learned my lesson. Likewise, I have sold things before and later realized I gave it away... but once a deal is cut, you should honour it.


As you say:


> Not everyone has the same ethics however, and there are a lot of people who think $$ is king, and that is something you have to deal with.


Had you just operated with honesty and told the other party of your change of heart you might not have such barbs in your ethics.

He lost no money on this "transaction gone foul". He's only out the time he's spent complaining about it here.

9kkhhd


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## GuitarsCanada

There are many ways you can look at it. The specific gear can be a driver. Like the XP100 I mentioned. Specific SR&D gear (in mint condition) is very rare. So in that situation I told the guy I would meet his asking price and would be there ASAP to pick it up.

There are other situations, say on gear that comes up often where you might say to someone "I will offer you this" and if he says no than fine, wait for the next one. But if it is a piece of gear you really want and it does not come up often AND it comes up at a very reasonable price (that you know others will be vying for) you RUN !!!! RUN !!!! 

Sometimes, trying to save some extra money can cost you a piece of gear you really want. I have learned that lesson a few times over the years. 

Yes, we want everyone to be honest and sincere. It's different on a place like this or TGP etc, where the communities are built on honesty and fair play. But you have to use common sense out there in the jungle.


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## ajcoholic

iaresee said:


> I value these traits too. So much so that if someone was _honest_ with me about having a change of heart on a transaction we were involved in I have the _integrity_ to work it out amicably. If that means backing out of the deal: so be it.
> 
> Ain't so black and white see?
> 
> 
> 
> As you say:
> 
> Had you just operated with honesty and told the other party of your change of heart you might not have such barbs in your ethics.
> 
> He lost no money on this "transaction gone foul". He's only out the time he's spent complaining about it here.
> 
> 9kkhhd


Barbs? Huh? All I am saying is that when I make a deal - whether I am on the buying or selling end of things, I honor that deal. I may decide before money changes hands I would rather not, but I will never just leave a guy hanging.

You may not agree - or understand. Thats fine, but I like being honest and keeping my word, always. Thats how I operate my business, and thats how my father raised me, and thats how I will continue to be. Makes my life easier...

I can understand the OP being upset. Personally, I dont get too wound up about these things, way too many important things in my life to worry about. But, I do understand. * A deal should be a deal - if you have any integrity.*

Why is that hard to understand? The seller made a deal, and then backed out. That is a lousy thing to do - and no amount of rationalizing will convince me otherwise. 

AJC


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## ajcoholic

I just sold a large scale model airplane to a fellow down in Toronto.

He offered to pay me now, and I will deliver the aircraft in my truck, when I go to the city in mid December.

Now, I said, I will trust you wont change your mind - and would rather just get the $$ when I deliver the plane, and I took down my ad.

If I now sold the model to someone else, I would be wrong and he would be PO'd. ALso, If I bring the plane down to Toronto in my truck, and then the guy decides to bail he would be wrong and I would certainly be PO'd. If someone local offered me more $$ for it, it is still wrong for me to sell it to them, in my book.

Why cant people make a deal - agree on a price and a pick up/delivery and stick to it?

AJC


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## GuitarsCanada

ajcoholic said:


> Why cant people make a deal - agree on a price and a pick up/delivery and stick to it?
> 
> AJC


As with many things in life, you are looking at it in the way that it "should" be and the way that most of us would act in a similar situation. Unfortunately everyone does not hold themselves to those same standards. This is nothing new though, it's always been that way. You have to "earn" the reputation of being a person of your word. You can't expect that on the internet from someone you have never met. You can certainly get a good idea of a persons reputation on a forum like this when they have been around long enough and have many other people to back that reputation up with feedback etc.

But in this case we are dealing with an unknown poster dealing with a person he has never met. No history. In those situations I maintain that it is the same as a garage sale. The first person that shows up with the cash, wins. Do not confuse the two situations. A gear site that trades and sells essentially one product to a specific buying audience compared with a wide open, uncontrolled bulletin board. 

It's the very trusting individuals that end up sending gear to people 500 miles away and then getting burned on the payment. Or the other way around. Should it happen? No. Does it happen? All the time. 

Like I told my kids when they were starting to drive. Never assume the other guy will do what he is supposed to do. Always anticipate that he might just drive right on through that stop sign. The first time you don't consider it, you are going to get nailed.


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## nitehawk55

ajcoholic said:


> I just sold a large scale model airplane to a fellow down in Toronto.
> 
> He offered to pay me now, and I will deliver the aircraft in my truck, when I go to the city in mid December.
> 
> Now, I said, I will trust you wont change your mind - and would rather just get the $$ when I deliver the plane, and I took down my ad.
> 
> If I now sold the model to someone else, I would be wrong and he would be PO'd. ALso, If I bring the plane down to Toronto in my truck, and then the guy decides to bail he would be wrong and I would certainly be PO'd. If someone local offered me more $$ for it, it is still wrong for me to sell it to them, in my book.
> 
> Why cant people make a deal - agree on a price and a pick up/delivery and stick to it?
> 
> AJC


As much as I would like to trust someone it a case like this I would have to get a reasonable deposit to seal the deal . I don't feel that's an unreasonable request since you are going to deliver the planes at a future date and on his honor . To me doing that brings the trust issue to the front where it no longer is an issue for the seller or buyer , it's a done deal .


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## Powdered Toast Man

I think GuitarsCanada has nailed it on every post.

I'm seeing a lot of "but a deal is a deal" rhetoric. Frankly, a transaction has not been entered in to until money and/or goods have changed hands. What you had was an arrangement to meet and THEN complete a sale. He canceled the appointment because somebody else beat you to it.

I have to wonder if the OP would feel this strongly had the seller simply changed his mind and decided to back out of the sale and keep his gear.

What if that seller got 4 other emails after yours from buyers willing to pay his asking price AND meet him same day - he turns them all down because he's made a "deal" with you. Then, you sleep on it and next morning you decide you really don't need that cab because you forgot the power bill is due and you need that $200 and you cancel on the seller. Now, what is he supposed to do? Try and chase down those people who were willing to come yesterday and buy it? Chances are they've all moved on already.

This is why cash in hand is the rule. Every person I've ever had lined up to buy a piece of gear who isn't coming THAT DAY to get it has not shown up. If you let someone sleep on the deal they'll back out - every time. That's my experience as a seller.


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## NIK0

Cleary I was venting and clearly there are a lot of opinions on this paricular topic/case. So what do I say now after all this and 12 hours has passed?

Yes, I really wanted the cab. Yes it was a great deal at original asking price. The guy admitted to paying $300 a year ago for it and thought after the daily use and gigging with it that it perhaps depreciated by a hundred and that my offer of $200 was more than fair. We had a great conversation and firmed up the deal. I offered him a EMT deposit but thought it wasn't necessary considering that I was going to drive up there a day later to pick it up. Feeling comfortable with it I asked him to email his address. Made plans to go up to Newmarket, take my wife and daughter and visit a friend on the way back. 

That's it in a nutshell. Now I totally totally get what GuitarsCanada and others are saying. To sum up your comments you're all basically saying "that's life!". I couldn't agree more...this is very much primitive human nature.

Two sides to every coin and in this case most of you dwelled on one side, and for very good reasons. I got to tell ya all, though I see everyone's point I am still of the opinion that a verbal deal is a deal. Someone has committed to something, they better honour it! I'm glad this isn't a GCr or else I would have been really pissed. In this particular case, I am not pissed really, just dissapointed and thought I would share my experience with you all and get your take on it.

Reading your comments...well it seems that most have different views when compared to my own. I can assure you of one thing...any of you that make a deal with me, regardless of price, I will honor it no matter what. My ethics are to solid for it to be any other way. Sure, everyone has a situation where ou cannot come up with the money...those situations are dissapointing for all parties involved but to sell it behind someone's back and then send an email saying "Sold", well I'm sorry but that's just wicked . That's all the email said. Send an email saying that there is someone offering to pay my asking price and give me the opportunity to match or counter the offer, now at least I am dealng with an honest person. Simply selling it without notifying the other party is NOT ok in my books and those of you who simply say that this is the "nature of the beast"...well I will have to pay close attention to my transactions with you and ensure that my i's are crossed and t's are dotted because that's clearly what I did wrong in this case...I trusted someone. Next time I will cross all my t's if I wantto ensure a solid transaction.

Anyhoo I thought it would be an interstig thread and get everyone's take oN this one. Found another cab and picking it up today...if it is really the way you are all saying, I hope it's still there when I arrive


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## NIK0

LoL...I can't believe this but someone on CL actually posted something along the same lines as this thread.

http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/yrk/msg/1477060953.html 

On my daughters life it wasn't me...I find it kind of odd and obviously a coincidence. I wonder if this guy offered $225 for the same cab only to find out that it was sold to literally a "third" party...he he he


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## NIK0

Just in case the posting gets removed. It is so creepy how this sounds exactly like my situation. I really wonder if it is the same item.





Avoid scams and fraud by dealing locally! Beware any deal involving Western Union, Moneygram, wire transfer, cashier check, money order, shipping, escrow, or any promise of transaction protection/certification/guarantee. More info
RE: HONOR YOUR DEALS - $1 (Life) (This planet)

Date: 2009-11-22, 12:46AM EST
Reply to: [email protected] [Errors when replying to ads?]

I stongly agree with this posting, other than than I highly doubt "This forum will dry up due to a lack of trust"...But by all means people, absolutely put yourselves in the shoes of others when responding to their ads, and do so in the same manner of which you would prefer to be treat...So be humane, their wishes/needs are as important to them as yours are to you! 

*********************************************************************************************************

Hey everybody. If you make a deal to buy or sell an item with someone, STICK TO IT. I am tired of selling things to people who don't show or buying stuff and then finding out the seller sold it to someone else after we already made a deal. Have some honor people. This forum will dry up if we no longer can trust each other to go the whole 9 yards. 


Location: This planet
it's NOT ok to contact this poster with services or other commercial interests

PostingID: 1477060953

Copyright © 2009 craigslist, inc. terms of use privacy policy feedback forum


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## torndownunit

Powdered Toast Man said:


> I think GuitarsCanada has nailed it on every post.
> 
> I'm seeing a lot of "but a deal is a deal" rhetoric. Frankly, a transaction has not been entered in to until money and/or goods have changed hands. What you had was an arrangement to meet and THEN complete a sale. He canceled the appointment because somebody else beat you to it.
> 
> I have to wonder if the OP would feel this strongly had the seller simply changed his mind and decided to back out of the sale and keep his gear.
> 
> *What if that seller got 4 other emails after yours from buyers willing to pay his asking price AND meet him same day - he turns them all down because he's made a "deal" with you. Then, you sleep on it and next morning you decide you really don't need that cab because you forgot the power bill is due and you need that $200 and you cancel on the seller. Now, what is he supposed to do?* Try and chase down those people who were willing to come yesterday and buy it? Chances are they've all moved on already.
> *
> This is why cash in hand is the rule. Every person I've ever had lined up to buy a piece of gear who isn't coming THAT DAY to get it has not shown up. If you let someone sleep on the deal they'll back out - every time. That's my experience as a seller.*



This is EXACTLY how Craigslist works. The fact is the guy does not KNOW you. People are on there to sell their stuff, and they have to go with what is the safest sale. You can't take it personally, because there is nothing personal about it.

YOU are the buyer. If you want an item, than you have to go and buy it while it's available. This applies to most purchases you make in life, not just Craigslist/Kijiji sales. 

I am not a 'jerk seller', and anyone who has dealt with me on the forums knows so. I have sold dozens of items on Craigslist/Kijiji over the years. *I can say with full honesty that I have been burned 75% of the times someone asked me to hold an item*. So *I* am no the bad person because I had to adopt a 'first come, first to get it' policy. In my case, I clearly communicate this to people interested in my items though, and it would be nice if others did the same. But still, it's their item to sell.

The bottom line is, I'd rather do my deals through this forum anytime. We 'know' each other on some level, and have a couple of different buyer feedback systems here. I would hold an item for someone on here. And I'd have no hesitation giving someone a 'hold payment' on an item on here. That is the environment we have on this forum. Craigslist/Kijiji are NOTHING like this forum and you just can't deal the same way on them.


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## torndownunit

doubel; post


----------



## NIK0

torndownunit said:


> This is EXACTLY how Craigslist works. The fact is the guy does not KNOW you. People are on there to sell their stuff, and they have to go with what is the safest sale. You can't take it personally, because there is nothing personal about it.
> 
> YOU are the buyer. If you want an item, than you have to go and buy it. This applies to most purchases you make in life, not just Craigslist/Kijiji sales.
> 
> I am not a dick, and anyone who has dealt with me on the forums knows so. I have sold dozens of items on Craigslist/Kijiji over the years. I can say with full honesty that I have been burned 75% of the times someone asked me to hold an item. So *I* am no the bad person because I had to adopt a 'first come, first to get it' policy. In my case, I clearly communicate this to people interested in my items though, and it would be nice if others did the same. But still, it's their item to sell.



Valid point...it has happened to me in the past as well where someone backs out the following day. I believe Guitars Canada is unique in this case as we are all colleagues in a some ways here and have this up front trust with each other when making a deal. We're kind of a club where Craigslist and other B&S services are obviously an "anything goes" kind of approach. I totally get that now.


----------



## Guest

ajcoholic said:


> Barbs? Huh? All I am saying is that when I make a deal - whether I am on the buying or selling end of things, I honor that deal. I may decide before money changes hands I would rather not, but I will never just leave a guy hanging.


The seller in the OP didn't leave him hanging. He let him know, well in advance of his planned trip, that the item was sold. Now -- if he'd shown up at the guys door, an hour's drive, and then found out it had sold. That's an entirely different situation. But in this case he got fair warning that, as Powdered Toast Man so succiently put it, "he was cancelling their appointment to complete the transaction". He didn't cancel the sale. There was no sale. He cancelled the appointment.

The OPs emotional outpouring is understandable. He was on a high having made a quite excellent deal. $200 for that cab is a steal. And then it fell apart. So big high to a big low. But in the end: the only harm done is a little emotional roller coaster ride for the OP. The net change in his finances is zero.



> I can understand the OP being upset. Personally, I dont get too wound up about these things, way too many important things in my life to worry about. But, I do understand. * A deal should be a deal - if you have any integrity.*


Fair goes both ways though. $200 from the OP 24 hours later, or $250 now from someone else -- well, fair is the higher price for the goods he's selling from the seller's perspective. He could have handled it differently, offering the OP a chance to match or beat the other guy. But really: would you trust an email exchange like that on CL? It's too easy to just call someone up a hour later and say you got a better offer.



> Why is that hard to understand? The seller made a deal, and then backed out. That is a lousy thing to do - and no amount of rationalizing will convince me otherwise.


People cancel appointments all the time. What's to rationalize there?


----------



## keeperofthegood

I've read this thread in spots. I don't care about the "no u" vs "u" arguments. No idea if has been mentioned, but in Canada law, when you agree to sell something to someone you have entered into a "gentleman's agreement" which, although not on paper, is a binding agreement. Using a form such as Craigslist/Kijiji at al does actually take that to the next step by creating a paper trail through emails.

Parameters would need to have been set, "_If in 24.00 hours you have not paid, it goes to the next purchaser interested_" or "_You have 24 hours in which to show, however, in that 24 hours if a better offer comes in and is in person to pay that better offer, I will sell to that better offer_" etc (I think it was bagpipe that said something like that in the thread). So, if the seller felt he wanted to cancel the sale, because he is in a contract to sell, he has to first give the prospective purchaser parameters to either meet/exceed the new offer OR allow the seller or purchaser to opt out of that contract.

Of course, purchasers also have some legal obligations too, because they are party of the contract. 

And of course most people are not bright enough to know anything of obligations in contracts too, hence why we have a thriving small claims court system.

As to 200 vs 250 etc; sometimes you take the shaft, sometimes you give it, in the end of days the balance usually tallies up.


----------



## ajcoholic

iaresee said:


> The seller in the OP didn't leave him hanging. He let him know, well in advance of his planned trip, that the item was sold. Now -- if he'd shown up at the guys door, an hour's drive, and then found out it had sold. That's an entirely different situation. But in this case he got fair warning that, as Powdered Toast Man so succiently put it, "he was cancelling their appointment to complete the transaction". He didn't cancel the sale. There was no sale. He cancelled the appointment.
> 
> The OPs emotional outpouring is understandable. He was on a high having made a quite excellent deal. $200 for that cab is a steal. And then it fell apart. So big high to a big low. But in the end: the only harm done is a little emotional roller coaster ride for the OP. The net change in his finances is zero.
> 
> 
> Fair goes both ways though. $200 from the OP 24 hours later, or $250 now from someone else -- well, fair is the higher price for the goods he's selling from the seller's perspective. He could have handled it differently, offering the OP a chance to match or beat the other guy. But really: would you trust an email exchange like that on CL? It's too easy to just call someone up a hour later and say you got a better offer.
> 
> 
> People cancel appointments all the time. What's to rationalize there?



Wow, so we definitely have very different values. I am a man of my word, period. That isnt dependant upon if I know the guy, or he is a total stranger, or whatever.

Again, no amount of rationalizing will change the fact that a deal was struck, one party decided to void that deal. You may (and it seems a lot of others here feel the same) think thats OK, but I certainly do not. Wow...

AJC


----------



## Guest

keeperofthegood said:


> I've read this thread in spots. I don't care about the "no u" vs "u" arguments. No idea if has been mentioned, but in Canada law, when you agree to sell something to someone you have entered into a "gentleman's agreement" which, although not on paper, is a binding agreement.


It is not binding if no _consideration_ has been paid. Consideration can come in more forms than just money but money is really the best way to make an agreement binding. If one party begins to do work, or starts a long journey, that's consideration. It's a very gray concept and lawyers and judges sort it out in claims court.

Had the OP insisted on giving him cash in advance then the sale terms would have been binding. Ever wondered why you have to give a deposit with an offer on a house? Because without _money_ the signed offer is incredibly easy to withdraw -- consideration paid seals the deal.


----------



## keto

ajcoholic said:


> You may (and it seems a lot of others here feel the same) think thats OK, but I certainly do not. Wow...
> 
> AJC


I don't think it's OK, it doesn't align with the values I was raised with and continue to do my best to live by. It IS HOWEVER part of the modern world for this kind (Craigslist Kijiijii) of selling, and I really don't think it's anything to get excited about. As GC said earlier, it's more like a garage sale and first cash to the door takes the merch.

In the same way that buyers have been burned by taking a longish trip to go get something that's sold before they get there, how many sellers have been stood up by people who made appointments? LOTS. It happens. Roll with it, forget about it. Treat it like a garage sale.


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## Guest

ajcoholic said:


> Wow, so we definitely have very different values. I am a man of my word, period. That isnt dependant upon if I know the guy, or he is a total stranger, or whatever.


What? You're surprised that people are different? 

So let me ask you this: how does anyone know what your values are? You do you know the values of anyone else?

You're asking that the world behave according to some unwritten set of rules you've got in your head that you think are better than the written rules we've got in the law books.

You could be telling me, "My word is my bond." But maybe your ethical rule book is, "Say whatever it takes to seal the deal." In which case, how do I judge your word? I can't.

So I use the written rules. They're available to everyone and in the end they're what I'll be able to fall back on if things go wrong in a deal and I want out (or want someone to stay in).

Better than trying to guess the other party's "ethical play book" when doing a deal.



> Again, no amount of rationalizing will change the fact that a deal was struck, one party decided to void that deal. You may (and it seems a lot of others here feel the same) think thats OK, but I certainly do not. Wow...


I'm sorry: you're wrong. It is not a _fact_ that a deal was broken. _There was no deal_. That's the plain fact of it. The OP might have felt there was a deal, but legally there was not. He can test that fact if likes, take it to claims court. I'll bet on the outcome of that one. :smile:


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## unison thrush

Ok, here's a scenario. Buddy shows up to the guys house and says I will give you $400 right now for the cab. He says "No way man, I have a guy coming over tomorrow, I think, with $200 for me. I better hold off for him. " 9/10 people are not going to pass it up. 

Tomorrow, the guy with $200 does not show up!! You have now screwed yourself out of a great easy sale, because you made a deal with someone you don't even know. 

I have made a lot of sales of high end gear and I find that to be a hard scenario to just pass up. 

Bottom line whoever tends to pay first gets the goods, unless of course you are selling to friends etc, whom you know quite well. 

He likely had the deal set up with the other guy as well, and if he came and looked at it, and didn't get it, you were next. A safety net so to speak. At least he let you know that it was gone before you drove there!

I say chalk it up to a missed opportunity and move on. It wasn't meant to be and another one will come up!!


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## torndownunit

keto said:


> I don't think it's OK, it doesn't align with the values I was raised with and continue to do my best to live by. It IS HOWEVER part of the modern world for this kind (Craigslist Kijiijii) of selling, and I really don't think it's anything to get excited about. As GC said earlier, it's more like a garage sale and first cash to the door takes the merch.
> 
> In the same way that buyers have been burned by taking a longish trip to go get something that's sold before they get there, how many sellers have been stood up by people who made appointments? LOTS. It happens. Roll with it, forget about it. Treat it like a garage sale.


Good post. That really kind of sums things up for me. If you don't like what goes on on Craigslist and Kijiji.... just don't use them. Use the forums, ebay, or buy in a store. The issues mentioned in the thread are all part of dealing on Craigslist and Kijiji though and that is not going to change.

I mean, this is just ONE downside of Craiglist: 

-You have the 'lowballers'. 

-You have the people who come to try out a guitar just because they haven't played that brand before and wanted to try it out, not because they have intent to buy. 

-You have the people who send you 1000 questions through email but have no plans on buying. It's like some kind of hobby for them. 

-The people who agree to a price, then show up and try to talk you down even though the condition of the gear is exactly as described.

I mean, the list goes on forever. I have had tons of great transactions through Kijiji and Craigslist. But you have to be willing to deal with some of the hassle as well.


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## nitehawk55

torndownunit said:


> -You have the people who come to try out a guitar just because they haven't played that brand before and wanted to try it out, not because they have intent to buy.


And that brings up another point on allowing strangers to come into your house , that in itself can have consequences kqoct


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## unison thrush

nitehawk55 said:


> And that brings up another point on allowing strangers to come into your house , that in itself can have consequences kqoct



Great point man!! Come home someday, and wonder "Ummmm, where is my stuff?"

Not cool!!


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## Metal#J#

"The moral of this story is... you should have given him the $250. The dude that picked it up did. "

I hate it when people say the're not trying to be a smart ass when they really are.:sport-smiley-002:


The point the rest of you are trying to make is that you shouldn't take strangers on their word and the OP should have to some extent known this.......but through this long read I get the impression that it's because some of you would do the same. Some things will never change......especially if we accept this as the norm or just natural human behavior. Fu<king people over isn't human nature......it's a personality disorder and should be viewed as just that.

AJC, I would do business with you any day. Seems to be the code of the North:smilie_flagge17: I asked a guy to hold a bike I wanted last week on Kijiji(for about 4 days). He could have easily got more than what I offered........but sure enough, he stuck to his word. 




J


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## GuitarsCanada

Metal#J# said:


> I asked a guy to hold a bike I wanted last week on Kijiji(for about 4 days). He could have easily got more than what I offered........but sure enough, he stuck to his word.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> J


Did you ever think that maybe you were the only one that made an offer? Or that any other offer was the same amount? Every single item that sells is a different story. It comes down to supply and demand. A bike is not a Dr Z cab. I don't think there was one person in this thread that said what that seller did was a good thing. So where you are getting the idea that there may be people here that would do the same thing is beyond me.

What I have said and most others as well is, that is the way it works out there in kijiji/CL land and you need to keep that in mind. Move fast and don't try to cut corners if you know it's a good deal. Pretty simple stuff.

Personally, I dont like the OBO thing. I put up what I beleive to be a very reasonable price and stay away from bidding wars. The first person that matches my asking price AND shows up get the gear. If you tell me you will be there the next morning, I will give you until noon.


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## nitehawk55

One kijiji event that really burned me was when I listed a horse for sale back this past spring . You should have seen some of the f*cktards that emailed me and asking a sorts of dumb questions . I would not have sold them the horse at twice the price as there are people out there that should not own one . 

Finally did get a call from a horse trainers wife who I knew of from the Woodstock area and said they definately wanted the horse and would be by about 2 pm with the trailer and $$$ . Gave them my home and cell #s and told her to contact me if there were any problems getting to me . 
What really pissed me was I had a list of stuff to do that day a mile long so I got done what I could and then decided I had better be close by for the time they said they would show . Well 2pm came and went...3....4....5 , I tried calling , got a kid who said they were gone , fine probably on the way....6...6:30 another person close by inquires and is a good potential buyer . I tell her I'll give them till 8....no contact.... call her and tell her the horse is hers and it was a done deal , came right over that night just before dark . 

The other f#cktards never did have the courtesy to call me and wasted the better part of my day


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## Guest

Metal#J# said:


> Seems to be the code of the North:smilie_flagge17:


More likely the code of a small town. A smaller group of closely integrated people are far more likely to share ethics (religious and moral) than a broadly distributed, loosely couple group of people the likes of which you get conversing on the internet. Wondering why people don't follow the same unwritten playbook as you is akin to asking why they don't worship...wait....can't say that, can I? I think you see where I'm going with that thought though.

But even the net has tribes: GC is a tribe. There's certainly an unwritten code of conduct applied to transactions here. It's generally more courteous because people have a constant presence here and a reputation they want to maintain. So agree with the code or not, it's followed. Plus, it's an autocracy (albeit a relatively benign one) so you risk completely banishment if you're not on the up and up. The bigger the tribe, the more diverse the personal codes; eBay for example. Much bigger tribe, much bigger difference from seller to seller, buyer to buyer, right?

The world is big. People come in all shapes and size, and yes: personal ethics differ from person to person, place to place, year to year, age to age.

I like that about the world. I like that there are ajcoholic's and bagpipe's in the world. And that not everyone is an iaresee. Shudder the thought.


----------



## Metal#J#

GuitarsCanada said:


> Did you ever think that maybe you were the only one that made an offer? Or that any other offer was the same amount? Every single item that sells is a different story. It comes down to supply and demand. A bike is not a Dr Z cab. I don't think there was one person in this thread that said what that seller did was a good thing. So where you are getting the idea that there may be people here that would do the same thing is beyond me.
> 
> What I have said and most others as well is, that is the way it works out there in kijiji/CL land and you need to keep that in mind. Move fast and don't try to cut corners if you know it's a good deal. Pretty simple stuff.
> 
> Personally, I dont like the OBO thing. I put up what I beleive to be a very reasonable price and stay away from bidding wars. The first person that matches my asking price AND shows up get the gear. If you tell me you will be there the next morning, I will give you until noon.


Sure it's possible that no one else made an offer but if you knew the market for quads around here I'm sure there were plenty of offers. Most reasonably priced bikes don't last a day on kijiji........and I know cuz I missed on several of them. But doubt if you want.

To answer your question where I got that idea, just the position some people take in an arguement. That and I've been fu<ked by forum members in situations not all that different than this one.

J


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## davetcan

nitehawk55 said:


> And that brings up another point on allowing strangers to come into your house , that in itself can have consequences kqoct


I won't sell on craigslist or kijiji for that very reason. If I don't know you, or know of you, then I'll just hold onto the stuff.


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## david henman

Fader said:


> Sorry, I'm with Niko on this one.
> Your word is your bond. The guy broke his word.
> He's lucky he don't live in Bartertown.
> "Bust a deal, face the wheel."
> The guy needs his ass kicked.


...essentially, i agree. at the very least, because he verbally agreed to the deal, the seller was obligated to contact niko and explain the situation, giving him a chance to match or up the offer. the seller is a flake.

-dh


----------



## NIK0

david henman said:


> ...essentially, i agree. at the very least, because he verbally agreed to the deal, the seller was obligated to contact niko and explain the situation, giving him a chance to match or up the offer. the seller is a flake.
> 
> -dh


Well thanks Mr. Henman...I believe that was my only point. The fact that he sold it to someone else is not what bugs me. I offered him $200, he said yes. I offered him an EMT deposit, he said not necessary, see you tomorrow! 

He could have just called me and said, "Hey Nick, I have an awkward situation but I have another guy that can come right now to pick it up and meet my asking price of $250. If you can match that and provide me with a guarantee, perhaps your proposed EMT...then I will honor the deal as you were first in line".

Is this not standard practice among the B&S community? Maybe my ethics are different then some of you but I am 100% that you all agree with what I am expressing here. 

Heh!...I was kind of pissed when I first started this thread and am quite amazed of how active this thread has been since Saturday 

I love doing business with all of my fellow GCers and never had problems with CL and Kijiji so this was my first bitter experience...first time for everything!

If it wasn't for the GAS then I probably wouldn't have cared but we all know how this disease works...found another cab anyway  And as one poster mentioned that this isn't worth stressing over, there are better things in life to focus on...absolutely true and believe me, my thread is interpreted as being far worse then it really was for me...

One thing that this thread has tought me though, is the power of interpretation. Most of you thought my life was seriously affected by this but far from it. About 10 years ago I worked for IBM/Bell Sygma and someone in our office got the boot because of that very fact...his words in the email were intrepreted to be offensive but if he just used a simple smiley face...well he probably would have got a raise :smile:

It was very interesting to learn about your individual perspectives on this subject...surely opened my eyes to this market and my approach will be far different moving forward. But one thing that will not change is my word and old school business ethics.

Cheers!


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## 4345567

(double post)


----------



## 4345567

iaresee said:


> It is not binding if no _consideration_ has been paid. Consideration can come in more forms than just money but money is really the best way to make an agreement binding. If one party begins to do work, or starts a long journey, that's consideration.


That's an incorrect explanation of consideration. If I promise to _give_ you a Dr. Z cab, and you accept that offer, and then I change my mind, you have no claim against me. That would be an example of "no consideration". You are giving me nothing of any benefit or value whatsoever in return. If, however, you promise to pay me $200 for my cabinet tomorrow and I accept that offer and agree to sell you the cabinet, we have mutual promises. You are legally obliged to pay me $200 in exchange for my cabinet. That promise has value and amounts to consideration.



> Had the OP insisted on giving him cash in advance then the sale terms would have been binding.


If contracts were only binding once payment had actually been made, our entire modern system of commerce would break down. In our system, the _obligation_ to pay is a valuable commodity. Entire markets exist that trade on nothing other than the _obligation_ of one party to pay another for something, without cash ever actually changing hands directly.



> Ever wondered why you have to give a deposit with an offer on a house? Because without _money_ the signed offer is incredibly easy to withdraw -- consideration paid seals the deal.


Assuming the contract is in writing (agreements to purchase land are a special case that _must_ be in writing), an agreement to purchase land without a deposit is exactly as legally enforceable as one with a deposit. Having a deposit just makes the enforcement more convenient (i.e. you can rely on the deposit without having to go to court).

In my view, NIK0 clearly had a contract. The problem is that it's such a minor one that it's probably not worth doing anything about it.


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## Skndstry

Interesting debate. 

I think it boils down to this. 

Buying:

If you want something badly enough, pay the asking price. Don't dicker, don't deal (especially if you know it is already a steal.) What bartering immediately establishes is the fact that you are looking out FOR YOURSELF, so you shouldn't be surprised if the other guy DOES THE SAME. 

Selling:

Be up front. Stick with your posted price. Make it clear it is first come, first served, and the deal is done when the cash is in hand. 

If everybody did this, there would be no need for 7 pages of posts. 

For the record, I have lost money on deals where I was seller because I went down in price when I should have stayed firm. I stayed with my word. 

On the other hand, I have bought things where the seller admitted that he already had someone interested, but I had the cash in hand and was ready to get there first. 

So it cuts both ways. It is the INTERNET people - you need to lower your expectations. That's all there is to it.


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## torndownunit

Skndstry said:


> Interesting debate.
> 
> I think it boils down to this.
> 
> Buying:
> 
> If you want something badly enough, pay the asking price. Don't dicker, don't deal (especially if you know it is already a steal.) *What bartering immediately establishes is the fact that you are looking out FOR YOURSELF, so you shouldn't be surprised if the other guy DOES THE SAME.*
> 
> Selling:
> 
> Be up front. Stick with your posted price. Make it clear it is first come, first served, and the deal is done when the cash is in hand.
> 
> If everybody did this, there would be no need for 7 pages of posts.
> 
> For the record, I have lost money on deals where I was seller because I went down in price when I should have stayed firm. I stayed with my word.
> 
> On the other hand, I have bought things where the seller admitted that he already had someone interested, but I had the cash in hand and was ready to get there first.
> 
> So it cuts both ways. It is the INTERNET people - you need to lower your expectations. That's all there is to it.


Excellent wording.


----------



## keeperofthegood

Skndstry said:


> Interesting debate.
> 
> I think it boils down to this.
> 
> Buying:
> 
> If you want something badly enough, pay the asking price. Don't dicker, don't deal (especially if you know it is already a steal.) What bartering immediately establishes is the fact that you are looking out FOR YOURSELF, so you shouldn't be surprised if the other guy DOES THE SAME.


Outside of North America, and indeed out side Canada more, the concept of Barter is as natural as breathing. The asking price is never the selling price and in many areas of the planet if you don't barter the odds that the merchant would be sorely put out are quite high. With chain stores and malls that replaced farmers markets and guilds the skill of barter has diminished to all but disappeared here. Are we better for it? Considering how our economy has tanked repeatedly over the last 40 years of non-barter systems breaking and failing while the same old same old farmers markets are still doing a brisk business I would have to side against the notion of not bartering.



Skndstry said:


> Selling:
> 
> Be up front. Stick with your posted price. Make it clear it is first come, first served, and the deal is done when the cash is in hand.
> 
> If everybody did this, there would be no need for 7 pages of posts.
> 
> For the record, I have lost money on deals where I was seller because I went down in price when I should have stayed firm. I stayed with my word.
> 
> On the other hand, I have bought things where the seller admitted that he already had someone interested, but I had the cash in hand and was ready to get there first.


Terms. For sure! THIS is what I have read through this thread that does make the utmost best practical sense. Set your terms in the ad. I completly agree with you here. And yea, I have lost funds, I have gained funds. In the end you know, it doesn't matter, the final tally sheets will always add up.



Skndstry said:


> So it cuts both ways. It is the INTERNET people - you need to lower your expectations. That's all there is to it.


This I do disagree with. Yes, it is the Internet, no, our expectations are only going to be as low as we are willing to go. We should demand the opposite and demand the same level of integrity in this medium as in any others. To date, court rulings on crimes as committed on the Internet have gone, the judicial system does say that the Internet is not an accepted place of lowered expectations, that the expectations on the Internet are no less than off. The most recent precedent set was a ruling against an 'anonymous' commenter who issued defamatory comments on a persons blog. Defamation of character even issued anonymously can now lead to court conviction.

The only way LAW was brought to the Olde West was by people that refused to let LAWLESSNESS reign. This is what we all need with the Internet, it is The New West and we are its pioneers. We are the ones to set the tone and levels of integrity here  and in doing so we should all demand as good if not better from the Internet than what we demand of any other space we exist.


----------



## ajcoholic

I am actually very surprised that so many here think that just due to the impersonal and pretty much anonymous dealings we do over the internet, that trust is somehow irrelevant.

WHat ever happened to trust, intergrity, giving your word and sticking to the gentleman's agreement?

I said Wow before and I will say it again. kksjur

And thats not a good wow. I deal with everyone equally, untill they give me a reason not to. I dont know many of you here that I have both bought and sold goods to. 

But what drives me is not fear of being banned from here, or making an enemy somewhere across ths country, but just plain old being a good guy.

I guess I was raised differently. My father is the most honestman I know. He taught me to be the same. I try. Simple as that. How life would be different if we all lived by that kind of code.

I am not a flake, I have experience selling and buying well over 2000 deals on ebay, and also hundreds of private struck deals (not all music mind you, but other expensive hobbies I dabble in) and I have to say, with few exception I have felt how you deal is how you get dealt with... karma if you want to call it that.

AJC


----------



## guitarman2

GuitarsCanada said:


> The moral of this story is... you should have given him the $250. The dude that picked it up did.


Yeah due to the fact that the cab sells from Dr Z for $500 US, as soon as the guy accepted $200 I would have set it up to pick it up immediately. That would have been a gift.


----------



## guitarman2

Fader said:


> You think lying and screwing over your fellow man is trivial?



You should get a better idea of what "Getting screwed over" really is. If somebody agreed to sell you something then sold it to some one else, I wouldn't waste my time whining about it on a discussion forum. I've already wasted enough time.
If someone took my money and never delivered the goods, well that would be "getting screwed over".
But its still immature to beat the crap out of somebody for it. Although I understand the desire to.


----------



## torndownunit

ajcoholic said:


> I am actually very surprised that so many here think that just due to the impersonal and pretty much anonymous dealings we do over the internet, that trust is somehow irrelevant.
> 
> WHat ever happened to trust, intergrity, giving your word and sticking to the gentleman's agreement?
> 
> I said Wow before and I will say it again. kksjur
> 
> And thats not a good wow. I deal with everyone equally, untill they give me a reason not to. I dont know many of you here that I have both bought and sold goods to.
> 
> But what drives me is not fear of being banned from here, or making an enemy somewhere across ths country, but just plain old being a good guy.
> 
> I guess I was raised differently. My father is the most honestman I know. He taught me to be the same. I try. Simple as that. How life would be different if we all lived by that kind of code.
> 
> I am not a flake, I have experience selling and buying well over 2000 deals on ebay, and also hundreds of private struck deals (not all music mind you, but other expensive hobbies I dabble in) and I have to say, with few exception I have felt how you deal is how you get dealt with... karma if you want to call it that.
> 
> AJC


You are making a huge assumption thinking that because a lot of us have terms for selling and buying, that we are jerks or something. I have no hesitation saying I am an upstanding person and an upstanding seller to do transactions with. Anyone who has dealt with me would echo that. I have nothing to worry about karma wise.

I am insulted by your assumptions of how I was raised. You know nothing about me, or anyone else in this thread and are making assumptions based on a few posts.

Having to adjust to the reality of a situation does not make any of us bad people. I fully list my terms in every ad I list, and communicate them thoroughly throughout a transaction. I am not pulling anything over on anyone. And I know most people on this forum are the same way because I have dealt with many of them.


----------



## TubeStack

Yes, it would've been nice of the guy to call NIKO and inform him of the second interested buyer willing to meet the original price. (Although that'd probably invoke some rage, as well. :smile: )

However, I don't think I'd be as outraged that he didn't call first. Disappointed and upset, but not outraged. I'd honestly figure it was my fault for not going as soon as possible, ready to pay the full price.

As others have said, it is CL after all. You're lucky to land any deal you get and it's all up to timing and again, sheer luck. 

Whoever has got the full amount of cash the quickest wins, too bad, so sad.


----------



## nitehawk55

Wow , this thread is turning into a train wreck , why are some of you taking this to a personal level ?

Geez , it was a CL transaction that didn't fly . Sh*t , between CL and kijiji this goes on all the time , I've had it happen and a lot of others . Move along , nothing to see here .


----------



## GuitarsCanada

We should all keep on a non-personal level. No need for any arguments really. I make all my comments based on personal experience and history. If you are going to deal on CL or kijiji then you have to play by the rules of those systems. It is no different than a person putting an ad in the local newspaper or buy/sell rag.

I snapped up a 1964 Fender Bandmaster head and matching cab from a youngster several years ago. Ad read something like "Fender amp and cab, tweed, $600" he did not know what it really was. Now if I would have called him on Saturday and said, I will be up next Tuesday with the $600 can you please hold it? What do you think would have happened come Tuesday? do you really think it would still be there? It was a 3 hour drive. I told Marnie to get her arse in the car we are going for a drive. I was banging on the guys door at 8:00 a.m. the next morning. Took one look and said here is your $600

Thats the way it works, forget about honor and being a man. You get out there and get it. First one there get's er'

Nothing personal, nothing bad. He got what he wanted and I got what I wanted. I am more than positive that he got another 30 phone calls on that one after I left. As a seller, if someone beat me up there and offered him $900 what is he to do? As a buyer you cannot count on the fact that this person "is a man of his word". Do that and the amp will be gone when you get there. 

It's wonderful to think that the world would be so fabulous if everyone would be a person of their word and honor and all that shmoltz. That guy is not playing through a 64' Bandmaster right now, he probably wishes he was.


----------



## al3d

You got it right no the nail Scott...basicaly..it comes down to this...Money Talk...Bullshit walks. it's sad sometimes..but that's how it's been since the dawn of man..and will be until it's end.




GuitarsCanada said:


> We should all keep on a non-personal level. No need for any arguments really. I make all my comments based on personal experience and history. If you are going to deal on CL or kijiji then you have to play by the rules of those systems. It is no different than a person putting an ad in the local newspaper or buy/sell rag.
> 
> I snapped up a 1964 Fender Bandmaster head and matching cab from a youngster several years ago. Ad read something like "Fender amp and cab, tweed, $600" he did not know what it really was. Now if I would have called him on Saturday and said, I will be up next Tuesday with the $600 can you please hold it? What do you think would have happened come Tuesday? do you really think it would still be there? It was a 3 hour drive. I told Marnie to get her arse in the car we are going for a drive. I was banging on the guys door at 8:00 a.m. the next morning. Took one look and said here is your $600
> 
> Thats the way it works, forget about honor and being a man. You get out there and get it. First one there get's er'
> 
> Nothing personal, nothing bad. He got what he wanted and I got what I wanted. I am more than positive that he got another 30 phone calls on that one after I left. As a seller, if someone beat me up there and offered him $900 what is he to do? As a buyer you cannot count on the fact that this person "is a man of his word". Do that and the amp will be gone when you get there.
> 
> It's wonderful to think that the world would be so fabulous if everyone would be a person of their word and honor and all that shmoltz. That guy is not playing through a 64' Bandmaster right now, he probably wishes he was.


----------



## Big_Daddy

I still think that man (person) is only as good as his word. If you give your word to someone that you are going to do something, anything, then, if you break your word, for whatever reason, you are not a person of integrity. In my mind, there are not levels of integrity, just like there aren't levels of faithfulness. (Just tell your wife that you've been 99% faithful and you'll get what I mean. :smile


----------



## Guest

nkjanssen said:


> That's an incorrect explanation of consideration. If I promise to _give_ you a Dr. Z cab, and you accept that offer, and then I change my mind, you have no claim against me. That would be an example of "no consideration". You are giving me nothing of any benefit or value whatsoever in return. If, however, you promise to pay me $200 for my cabinet tomorrow and I accept that offer and agree to sell you the cabinet, we have mutual promises. You are legally obliged to pay me $200 in exchange for my cabinet. That promise has value and amounts to consideration.


I'm sorry, but how is this materially different from what I said? (Consideration comes in many forms, specifically) Money is, as you concede, an easy marker for consideration. If it something of value changes hands the contract is enforceable. In the OPs case no value changed hands. There was a promise, but breaking the promise caused no loss on either side, so it's going to be a struggle to prove the consideration portion of the contract happened if he wanted to take it to claims court.

I don't think we're disagreeing here. Just differing in our degrees of detail in the discussion of _consideration_.

For example: had he driven to the man's house, and then been told that it was sold, you could say that consideration was made because he'd absorbed the cost of the travel in the spirit of completing the deal. But as it stands it was a total wash.

A court can sort it out, but like I said: I'd bet on the outcome and feel pretty safe in that bet. You?

The rule of thumb for anyone reading this discussion anymore is: if you're making contracts or agreements, get a deposit. It just makes it easier to enforce the contract if money is used as consideration. Just a small amount is all that's required.



> If contracts were only binding once payment had actually been made, our entire modern system of commerce would break down.


I didn't say that. I said it's the strongest form of consideration.



> In our system, the _obligation_ to pay is a valuable commodity.


Absolutely, but there has to be some loss or gain on one or more sides to make it hold up. If that wasn't the case the following conversation in a forum would be disasterous (and think about how many times someone has done this on GC):

OP: I have a shiny red guitar for sale. $1000
Responder: Man I love red! If I had the money I'd buy that! Free bump!

If that statement was binding the OP could, at some point in the future if the guitar hadn't sold, hold the "Responder" to their promise to buy the guitar when they came into the money.



> Entire markets exist that trade on nothing other than the _obligation_ of one party to pay another for something, without cash ever actually changing hands directly.


:smile: Shorts? Futures? I think this is getting a little off topic, but yes: you're right. In so much as money may never change hands in these cases. However, all of that stuff comes with a time limit. You can't short forever. Sooner or later you have to pay the debit back. And stock does change hands here, if only on paper in some building on Wall Street. So consideration happens.



> Assuming the contract is in writing (agreements to purchase land are a special case that _must_ be in writing), an agreement to purchase land without a deposit is exactly as legally enforceable as one with a deposit. Having a deposit just makes the enforcement more convenient (i.e. you can rely on the deposit without having to go to court).


My point exactly: money makes it very clear.



> In my view, NIK0 clearly had a contract. The problem is that it's such a minor one that it's probably not worth doing anything about it.


Ahh, well here we disagree, and really the only one who can sort it out is a judge. But it's a cool discussion none the less. I think it'd get tossed, not because of the low value, but because NIK0 wasn't out anything when the agreement was canceled by the seller. He did it in time. He'd get a cooling-off pass is my bet.


----------



## torndownunit

Big_Daddy said:


> I still think that man (person) is only as good as his word. If you give your word to someone that you are going to do something, anything, then, if you break your word, for whatever reason, you are not a person of integrity. In my mind, there are not levels of integrity, just like there aren't levels of faithfulness. (Just tell your wife that you've been 99% faithful and you'll get what I mean. :smile


It's hard for the thread not to turn personal with posts like this. It's nice that it's ok to attack people's character on this forum now.


----------



## Guest

Big_Daddy said:


> I still think that man (person) is only as good as his word. If you give your word to someone that you are going to do something, anything, then, if you break your word, for whatever reason, you are not a person of integrity. In my mind, there are not levels of integrity, just like there aren't levels of faithfulness. (Just tell your wife that you've been 99% faithful and you'll get what I mean. :smile


Lets say you agree to buy a house but before you close on the house you lose your job. Buying the place now would mean financial ruin for you and your family. Your word was you'd buy the house. Do you complete the transaction? Or do you abide by the laws of the land that set out circumstances for breaking agreements, maybe pay a penalty, and forgo closing?

Another scenario: you've owned your home for a year but then you lose your job. You can't make your mortgage payments any more. You try to renegotiate the terms with your bank but they say no. What do you do? Do you sell the house immediately, probably at a loss, default on the remainder of your mortgage and try to find a new place to live? Do you stop paying and let the lengthy eviction process play out, taking a hit on your credit rating but getting out of your mortgage obligation completely?

How do you follow on your word in those scenarios?


----------



## torndownunit

Well he's obviously a totally perfect person from his other posts. How could you even question him like that?


----------



## guitarman2

Big_Daddy said:


> I still think that man (person) is only as good as his word. If you give your word to someone that you are going to do something, anything, then, if you break your word, for whatever reason, you are not a person of integrity. In my mind, there are not levels of integrity, just like there aren't levels of faithfulness. (Just tell your wife that you've been 99% faithful and you'll get what I mean. :smile



To live by these black and white rules you have to be living in a black and white world.


----------



## Duster

I'm surprised this thread went to 8 pages and got so heated. I see this same type of thread on every forum I frequent. It really highlights an important issue - the argument people are having is because they're arguing about two different things.

In my opinion, there are two types of people in the world - those who want the world to be the way it SHOULD be, and those who accept the world the way it IS. There is nothing wrong with being either type of person, I am not saying one kind of person is better than the other. But these two types of people are often in conflict. The first type complains a lot, because the world rarely conforms to the way it should be. The second type points out to the first how naive they are for not seeing the world as it is.

The fact is, both types of people see the world as it is, and as it should be. They just have different expectations. The OP expects that people will try to make the world better, and more honourable. The others, simply don't expect that. They see things like honour as "schmaltz", some antiquated notion, and you can't expect the world to care about it.

Personally, I'm in the first group, and I'm with NIKO on this one. We all know that the world would be a better place if people honoured their commitments, verbal or written, explicit or implied. If everyone took the approach that this expectation was naive, then the world would simply never get better.

However, if everyone took the approach that people SHOULD do the right thing, we'd never have checks, balances, security deposits, and such, that are good, practical ideas.

The world needs idealists as well as realists. Personally, I'm more of an idealist, and I'll keep behaving that way in the hopes that my efforts make the world better. But I'm glad there are realists out there too, to keep our feet on the ground.

So, as a bit of an idealist, I throw my weight behind NIKO and the others. People, please, stick to your word. Even if it costs you money. It's the only way to make the world a better place.

--- D


----------



## hollowbody

This whole thread is pretty hilarious. I don't get what the problem was. If you offered less than the asking price for an item, I think you _should expect_ and certainly _not be surprised_ if the seller turns around and sells it to someone who _does_ offer his asking price. Why is this surprising?

Regardless of whether someone has committed to buying/selling or not, until money changes hands, that deal isn't done. I have a 5.1 surround system in a box at home that I'm trying to sell. Someone emailed me, told me it's a done deal and that I should take my ad down, etc. etc. and yet, it's still in a box in my house. I'm annoyed, but oh well - these things happen.

It's not a question of integrity because in a large centre like Toronto, I get lots of emails about every item I try to sell, dozens of them invariably say something to the effect of "I'll take it, see you a 8pm." I've had to stay home a few times waiting on a buyer that doesn't show. I've even been that buyer a couple times because something came up, like my cat needing an ultrasound that cost $700 and all-of-a-sudden that guitar wasn't as important to me anymore. Having gone through all this on both ends, I resort to a first-come-first-served policy. 

The only thing that the seller could and probably _should_ have done is to notify NIKO that someone else had topped his offer and to allow him the chance to match. I would have done that, but I also would have let him know that if I didn't hear back from him by the end of the day (or so), that I'd sell it to the other guy.


----------



## torndownunit

Duster said:


> I'm surprised this thread went to 8 pages and got so heated. I see this same type of thread on every forum I frequent. It really highlights an important issue - the argument people are having is because they're arguing about two different things.
> 
> In my opinion, there are two types of people in the world - those who want the world to be the way it SHOULD be, and those who accept the world the way it IS. There is nothing wrong with being either type of person, I am not saying one kind of person is better than the other. But these two types of people are often in conflict. The first type complains a lot, because the world rarely conforms to the way it should be. The second type points out to the first how naive they are for not seeing the world as it is.
> 
> The fact is, both types of people see the world as it is, and as it should be. They just have different expectations. The OP expects that people will try to make the world better, and more honourable. The others, simply don't expect that. They see things like honour as "schmaltz", some antiquated notion, and you can't expect the world to care about it.
> 
> Personally, I'm in the first group, and I'm with NIKO on this one. We all know that the world would be a better place if people honoured their commitments, verbal or written, explicit or implied. If everyone took the approach that this expectation was naive, then the world would simply never get better.
> 
> However, if everyone took the approach that people SHOULD do the right thing, we'd never have checks, balances, security deposits, and such, that are good, practical ideas.
> 
> The world needs idealists as well as realists. Personally, I'm more of an idealist, and I'll keep behaving that way in the hopes that my efforts make the world better. But I'm glad there are realists out there too, to keep our feet on the ground.
> 
> So, as a bit of an idealist, I throw my weight behind NIKO and the others. People, please, stick to your word. Even if it costs you money. It's the only way to make the world a better place.
> 
> --- D


The problem is not that deep. You've got people posting in here claiming others have no integrity because they have to 'go with the flow' and deal with the downsides of using Craigslist. Those posters are generalizing that that somehow transfers over to the other aspects of someone's life, and that those people obviously have no integrity. That is a ridiculous way to summarize people, and that is where the thread turns personal. Is anyone going to like being told they have no integrity?

If you don't like Craigslist or Kijiji, just don't use it. If you are going to, deal with the realities of it. I personally would rather not have to deal with the hassles of Craigslist because I am not the type or person who likes all this 'wheeling and dealing'. I am the type of person who for non-craiglist/kijiji transactions WOULD hold an item. The fact is sometimes I NEED to sell the items I am selling and have no choice but to play the game. Using Craigslist and Kijiji and dealign with the people on there is what caused me to have to adopt the selling terms. Because I constantly got burned. I don't appreciate being told I have no integrity because of that, by someone making summary judgements based on a few posts on a message board.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Duster said:


> I'm surprised this thread went to 8 pages and got so heated. I see this same type of thread on every forum I frequent. It really highlights an important issue - the argument people are having is because they're arguing about two different things.
> 
> In my opinion, there are two types of people in the world - those who want the world to be the way it SHOULD be, and those who accept the world the way it IS. There is nothing wrong with being either type of person, I am not saying one kind of person is better than the other. But these two types of people are often in conflict. The first type complains a lot, because the world rarely conforms to the way it should be. The second type points out to the first how naive they are for not seeing the world as it is.
> 
> The fact is, both types of people see the world as it is, and as it should be. They just have different expectations. The OP expects that people will try to make the world better, and more honourable. The others, simply don't expect that. They see things like honour as "schmaltz", some antiquated notion, and you can't expect the world to care about it.
> 
> Personally, I'm in the first group, and I'm with NIKO on this one. We all know that the world would be a better place if people honoured their commitments, verbal or written, explicit or implied. If everyone took the approach that this expectation was naive, then the world would simply never get better.
> 
> However, if everyone took the approach that people SHOULD do the right thing, we'd never have checks, balances, security deposits, and such, that are good, practical ideas.
> 
> The world needs idealists as well as realists. Personally, I'm more of an idealist, and I'll keep behaving that way in the hopes that my efforts make the world better. But I'm glad there are realists out there too, to keep our feet on the ground.
> 
> So, as a bit of an idealist, I throw my weight behind NIKO and the others. People, please, stick to your word. Even if it costs you money. It's the only way to make the world a better place.
> 
> --- D


You are forgetting one category of person. You can be both. I am. I am just the kind of person that would agree on a deal with someone over the phone and no matter what, I would keep that agreement. I have had things like that happen many times when I sell. Someone will call me up later and say I want it at all costs. I will tell them I have a guy showing up tomorrow. If he does not show it's yours. I too value all of those things you talk about. I have never lied to my kids, parents, family or friends. I dislike liars and people that do not say what they mean and then back it up with actions. 

But I also realize that the world does not work like that on a consistent basis. There are those that will go with the highest bidder. So when buying (which is where this thing started 10 pages ago) you move your ass fast and get there first.

So in the NIKO situation, call me a smart ass or whatever (I prefer realist) you get on that bike and RIDE son !!!! fast as a bunny over there and shove that green in the guys face. Like it or not boy's, that is the way it works.


----------



## Big_Daddy

guitarman2 said:


> To live by these black and white rules you have to be living in a black and white world.


 In what reality are integrity, honesty and faithfulness _*not *_black and white? You either are or you aren't, simply by definition alone. I have no misconceptions that many people believe that these attributes have shades of grey, but, just because they believe it doesn't make it so. They are absolute concepts. You are either honest or you aren't. You are faithful to your wife, or you're not. You keep your word, or you don't. I have no misconceptions that there are people (on CL or Kijiji or eBay) that don't believe this and I am skeptical about any kind of deal until money and goods have changed hands. But...that still doesn't change my belief that _*I*_ still have to live _my_ life with integrity, honesty and faithfulness.


----------



## ne1roc

I have a very similar situation happen to me fairly recently on this forum so I feel your pain. 

Something interesting to come out of this thread is, maybe sellers should state in their sale that they will not hold the item? I would like to know this info up front so I could judge for myself if I am willing to deal with the seller. My preferred method of transaction is to pick up and pay cash, which generally can take time to arrange.

I've made about 8 deals on this forum. Of the 8 deals, 5 of those sellers were willing to hold the item for up to a couple days, giving me time to arrange for picking up the item and dropping off the cash. These are the type of guys I want to deal with!


----------



## guitarman2

Duster said:


> I'm surprised this thread went to 8 pages and got so heated. I see this same type of thread on every forum I frequent. It really highlights an important issue - the argument people are having is because they're arguing about two different things.
> 
> In my opinion, there are two types of people in the world - those who want the world to be the way it SHOULD be, and those who accept the world the way it IS. There is nothing wrong with being either type of person, I am not saying one kind of person is better than the other. But these two types of people are often in conflict. The first type complains a lot, because the world rarely conforms to the way it should be. The second type points out to the first how naive they are for not seeing the world as it is.
> 
> The fact is, both types of people see the world as it is, and as it should be. They just have different expectations. The OP expects that people will try to make the world better, and more honourable. The others, simply don't expect that. They see things like honour as "schmaltz", some antiquated notion, and you can't expect the world to care about it.
> 
> Personally, I'm in the first group, and I'm with NIKO on this one. We all know that the world would be a better place if people honoured their commitments, verbal or written, explicit or implied. If everyone took the approach that this expectation was naive, then the world would simply never get better.
> 
> However, if everyone took the approach that people SHOULD do the right thing, we'd never have checks, balances, security deposits, and such, that are good, practical ideas.
> 
> The world needs idealists as well as realists. Personally, I'm more of an idealist, and I'll keep behaving that way in the hopes that my efforts make the world better. But I'm glad there are realists out there too, to keep our feet on the ground.
> 
> So, as a bit of an idealist, I throw my weight behind NIKO and the others. People, please, stick to your word. Even if it costs you money. It's the only way to make the world a better place.
> 
> --- D


I'm not in the same group as Niko or you as you say. Other wise I'd be wasting a lot of time whining about the injustices I must suffer to those with no integrity. I'm in a group you didn't mention. The one where we try our best to act as honestly and fairly as we can but realize that not everyone in the world has that intention. I suspect that Niko is more pissed that he didn't get a "Steal" of a deal rather than the fact that someone out there operates with a few less scruples then he'd like. 
But Niko would learn far more if he'd look at this differently. "You Can't Always Get What You Want".
If you realize one principle in this whole thing you might not be out of luck next time. There is NOTHING you can do to control the act of others. You can bitch about it and whine but it doesn't change anything. But what could you have done different that would have resulted in you ending up with this speaker cabinet? Rushed over there quicker, sent a payment EMT, etc. Maybe there was nothing you could do. Your 2 choices are to either move on or come crying to a discussion forum to see how many supporters you can collect. All your supporters and a $125 gets you coffee.


----------



## Duster

guitarman2 said:


> To live by these black and white rules you have to be living in a black and white world.


No, you just have to be prepared to be disappointed, often.

--- D


----------



## guitarman2

Big_Daddy said:


> In what reality are integrity, honesty and faithfulness _*not *_black and white? You either are or you aren't, simply by definition alone. I have no misconceptions that many people believe that these attributes have shades of grey, but, just because they believe it doesn't make it so. They are absolute concepts. You are either honest or you aren't. You are faithful to your wife, or you're not. You keep your word, or you don't. I have no misconceptions that there are people (on CL or Kijiji or eBay) that don't believe this and I am skeptical about any kind of deal until money and goods have changed hands. But...that still doesn't change my belief that _*I*_ still have to live _my_ life with integrity, honesty and faithfulness.



Your comparisons are ridiculous. Just because a guy renegs on a deal doesn't mean he cheats on his wife. It doesn't mean he is dishonest. A better deal comes along meaning more money and he takes it. Calling this act dishonest is really stretching it. I'm not saying it isn't a dishounarble thing to do but out and out dishonest its not. And if you want to state for your self personally that this is dishonest thats your right.
Cheating on your wife is dishonest. Stealing money from some one is dishonest. I think you get the point. The OP has lost money. And any sleep he's lost is his own fault.


----------



## Duster

guitarman2 said:


> I'm not in the same group as Niko or you as you say. Other wise I'd be wasting a lot of time whining about the injustices I must suffer to those with no integrity. I'm in a group you didn't mention. The one where we try our best to act as honestly and fairly as we can but realize that not everyone in the world has that intention. I suspect that Niko is more pissed that he didn't get a "Steal" of a deal rather than the fact that someone out there operates with a few less scruples then he'd like.
> But Niko would learn far more if he'd look at this differently. "You Can't Always Get What You Want".
> If you realize one principle in this whole thing you might not be out of luck next time. There is NOTHING you can do to control the act of others. You can bitch about it and whine but it doesn't change anything. But what could you have done different that would have resulted in you ending up with this speaker cabinet? Rushed over there quicker, sent a payment EMT, etc. Maybe there was nothing you could do. Your 2 choices are to either move on or come crying to a discussion forum to see how many supporters you can collect. All your supporters and a $125 gets you coffee.


I totally see your point of view, and by this post I would say you're pretty squarely in the "realist" category I described in my post. I never said realists don't try to act honestly or with integrity. 

"not everyone in the world has that intention"
"you can't always get what you want"
"there's nothing you can do to control the acts of others"
"you can bitch and whine but it doesn't change anything"
"all your supporters and $125 gets you coffee"

I don't think you fit into a "third group". I think you're a realist. Nothing wrong with that. I'm not fighting you or telling you I'm better than you.

In fact, most of the time I find myself wishing I could be more of a realist. But that just won't work for me.

--- D


----------



## Skndstry

Okay, so if the conversation is about integrity, then what IS integrity? 

No offence - as pointed out, in some countries bartering is just the way people do business. I've bartered myself. Nobody likes to pay full price - everybody loves a deal. The better the deal, the better we feel. 

But if you KNOW something is a deal, and you STILL try to get someone down - is that integrity? Or is that just trying to screw someone? 

I have never seen anywhere that it was written "integrity" involved wheeling your brother to get the best price. 

THAT is how it isn't black and white. We don't have all the details - we have one side of the story. 

What if the guy NEEDED that money? I don't know what his situation is. Do you? 

I do know that for most of us, when we are buying guitars or guitar accessories, we are buying TOYS! (Had a similar debate not long ago on these boards that degenerated into name calling on the other guys' part.)

So for those of you "man of your word"-types - judge as harshly as you like. It doesn't bother me - I'm a man of my word too. 

But there is always more than one side to the story.


----------



## hollowbody

ne1roc said:


> I have a very similar situation happen to me fairly recently on this forum so I feel your pain.
> 
> Something interesting to come out of this thread is, maybe sellers should state in their sale that they will not hold the item? I would like to know this info up front so I could judge for myself if I am willing to deal with the seller. My preferred method of transaction is to pick up and pay cash, which generally can take time to arrange.
> 
> I've made about 8 deals on this forum. Of the 8 deals, 5 of those sellers were willing to hold the item for up to a couple days, giving me time to arrange for picking up the item and dropping off the cash. These are the type of guys I want to deal with!


I'd say there's a pretty big difference between this forum and CL/Kijiji, though. I wouldn't hesitate to hold on to something I'm selling for someone from GC, but I would be less likely to for someone from CL/Kijiji. Which isn't to say I haven't, or that I won't. I've held items for people who no-showed, or went out to meet someone only to be stood up. These things happen. Depending on the vibe I get from the buyer or seller I may make concessions, or I may not.


----------



## TubeStack

hollowbody said:


> This whole thread is pretty hilarious. I don't get what the problem was. If you offered less than the asking price for an item, I think you _should expect_ and certainly _not be surprised_ if the seller turns around and sells it to someone who _does_ offer his asking price. Why is this surprising?...


LOL! Exactly. 

And the amount of moralistic posturing/grandstanding/preaching this has brought on is remarkable and comical, as well.


----------



## torndownunit

TubeStack said:


> LOL! Exactly.
> 
> And the amount of moralistic posturing/grandstanding/preaching this has brought on is remarkable and comical, as well.


I am not normally one to debate on forums. Being told you have no integrity because of your Craigslist/Kijij buying/selling habits of all things was a little surprising though obviously. And having it compared to cheating on your wife. I'll admit I got completely sucked in by that.


----------



## Guest

I thought this whole thread was pretty civilized. Funny at times. NIK0 has a really good attitude and took it all the dissenting opinions with a really bit of grace.

Certainly I don't think less of anyone after having participated in this thread.


----------



## keeperofthegood

TubeStack said:


> LOL! Exactly.
> 
> And the amount of moralistic posturing/grandstanding/preaching this has brought on is remarkable and comical, as well.


kqoct

I don't think I have been any of that.

All I have pointed out is that saying "I will sell this to you" is all that is needed in a court to satisfy that you have entered a contract. All sale sites DO actually maintain a paper trail of this. There are eMails that say "I am selling" followed by a "will you take" ending with "Yes I will take". This is something courts will take in as evidance. Email has long been accepted at face value in courts.

I have also pointed out that being ambiguous only leads to bad karma if "shit happens". Yes, life is full of "shit happens" that is the nature of life. That is also why, as the value of goods go up, the legal nature of their sale and trade becomes more complicated. So, the better lesson o this thread for both sellers and buyers is "BE CLEAR" with your terms of sale.

I have also pointed out that tossing in the towel of "lowered expectations" is not a good thing at any time. That the Internet is not a place of lowered expectations is something that the courts have upheld. The laws that apply to people face to face, of through mail order, telemarketing et al, apply to transactions and statements online equally. Because it said Kj or CL or whatever in the URL, does not in any way give people the right to act different than they would at any other time in their lives.

The Internet is new, and we are the first generation of Internet users. It is up to us to set the future of the Internet. If we set up a structure that believes everyone is a "lying thief that needs the dogs sicked on them to honour a deal" then the future of being able to do business becomes bleak.


----------



## ne1roc

hollowbody said:


> I'd say there's a pretty big difference between this forum and CL/Kijiji, though.


Point taken! 

Actually, with the length of the topic it slipped my mind that the guy did offer lower then selling price, where in my case, I have always gone with the listed price.


----------



## hollowbody

iaresee said:


> Certainly I don't think less of anyone after having participated in this thread.


I think this should be at the forefront of everyone's mind when responding to a thread like this. I try very hard to stay open-minded with everyone here. It's really a nice little community we have going here, and I know there's tons of people who have differing points of view than me, but yeah, once the thread's run its course, I try to leave everything in that thread.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Hey NIKO, I am sorry man we are going to have to ban your ass for starting this thread. Look at all the trouble you have caused man !! sigiifa


----------



## Skndstry

keeperofthegood said:


> kqoct
> 
> I have also pointed out that tossing in the towel of "lowered expectations" is not a good thing at any time. That the Internet is not a place of lowered expectations is something that the courts have upheld...The Internet is new.


Yes indeed. You are right. We should strive to be better. But not be surprised when some aren't. The Internet may be new, but Caveat Emptor is an ancient concept, and I have had deals go sour face to face as well. 

Let's try to agree on one thing - nobody lost anything here. Somebody did not get to buy an item at a ridiculously low price that was never theirs. Our potntial buyer still has $200 in his pocket, and a lesson learned. 

Somebody was going to get screwed for sure, but looked at another way, if this deal HAD gone down, the one getting screwed would have been the seller.


----------



## Big_Daddy

guitarman2 said:


> Your comparisons are ridiculous. Just because a guy renegs on a deal doesn't mean he cheats on his wife. It doesn't mean he is dishonest. A better deal comes along meaning more money and he takes it.


Maybe you should read my comment again. He gave NIKO his word. He did not keep it. Pretty black and white to me. Suggesting that I also inferred from that that he also cheated on his wife or is otherwise dishonest is ludicrous. LOL.


----------



## guitarman2

Skndstry said:


> But if you KNOW something is a deal, and you STILL try to get someone down - is that integrity? Or is that just trying to screw someone?


Now this here really is an excellent point. In my experiences the person that screams "Foul" the loudest is usually the guy that would do the same thing him self, regardless of how honest he proclaims him self. Now I'm not necessarily talking about the OP. I'm just sayin.
Myself, I would not have tried to barter this guy down $50 from an already insanely reasonable price. We could argue that this was about as dishonest as the guy reneging on the deal, which in my opinion neither are really dishonest in the true sense.


----------



## guitarman2

Big_Daddy said:


> Maybe you should read my comment again. He gave NIKO his word. He did not keep it. Pretty black and white to me. Suggesting that I also inferred from that that he also cheated on his wife or is otherwise dishonest is ludicrous. LOL.


Yeah I caught that. Big deal so he gave his word. Apparently he gave it to some one else to. So he broke it to 1 and not the other. Seems like he broke even.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

guitarman2 said:


> Myself, I would not have tried to barter this guy down $50 from an already insanely reasonable price. We could argue that this was about as dishonest as the guy reneging on the deal, which in my opinion neither are really dishonest in the true sense.


Geez, I tried to suggest that on the first reponse to this thread and was cremated by the OP. Hey... what do I know. All I am saying is I would have been there at the door ASAP with the $250.00 I am not telling people how to conduct their transactions.


----------



## hollowbody

Big_Daddy said:


> Maybe you should read my comment again. He gave NIKO his word. He did not keep it. Pretty black and white to me.


He said he'd sell for less than his asking price maybe because he thought he wouldn't get his asking price, then someone comes by and offers his original asking price. Where's the problem? 

I _want_ $250 for something, someone offers me $200, someone else $250. Who do I sell to? 

It's not like the OP offered $250 then the seller turned around and sold it to someone else for _more_ than the original asking price.


----------



## guitarman2

GuitarsCanada said:


> Geez, I tried to suggest that on the first reponse to this thread and was cremated by the OP. Hey... what do I know. All I am saying is I would have been there at the door ASAP with the $250.00 I am not telling people how to conduct their transactions.


All in all, it's not really anything to get so riled up about. I get more pissed about a guy that stupidly cuts me off on the highway on the way home from work. My anger lasts for about 5 seconds and maybe illicits one swear word. Then its forgotten forever. And thats my life thats put in danger. Kind of puts this in perspective.


----------



## Big_Daddy

I heard a great definition of integrity.....

"Integrity is doing what you said you were going to do, even tho you don't feel like it anymore."

I haven't heard one person here suggest that, just because he wanted to get a better deal, the original seller (or anyone else) has no integrity. He only lost integrity when he gave his word and didn't keep it. It's very simple. If you give your word to someone, stranger or not, keep it. If you are waiting or expecting or hoping for a better offer, than just say so. You don't lose your integrity by doing that. In fact, you come off as an honest upfront, kind of guy by doing so.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

guitarman2 said:


> All in all, it's not really anything to get so riled up about. I get more pissed about a guy that stupidly cuts me off on the highway on the way home from work. My anger lasts for about 5 seconds and maybe illicits one swear word. Then its forgotten forever. And thats my life thats put in danger. Kind of puts this in perspective.


Agreed.... :smilie_flagge17:


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Big_Daddy said:


> I heard a great definition of integrity.....
> 
> "Integrity is doing what you said you were going to do, even tho you don't feel like it anymore."
> 
> I haven't heard one person here suggest that, just because he wanted to get a better deal, the original seller (or anyone else) has no integrity. He only lost integrity when he gave his word and didn't keep it. It's very simple. If you give your word to someone, stranger or not, keep it. If you are waiting or expecting or hoping for a better offer, than just say so. You don't lose your integrity by doing that. In fact, you come off as an honest upfront, kind of guy by doing so.


Honest, but $50.00 lighter in his wallet. Without knowing that persons personal situation we cannot judge him. His error IMO was to not allow the original (contact) the opportunity to match the new offer. This dude may have been in a desperate financial situation. he may have owed a grand to his crack dealer for all we know. Hard to place a lable on people without knowing the motivations for selling.


----------



## 4345567

iaresee said:


> I'm sorry, but how is this materially different from what I said? (Consideration comes in many forms, specifically) Money is, as you concede, an easy marker for consideration. If it something of value changes hands the contract is enforceable. In the OPs case no value changed hands. There was a promise, but breaking the promise caused no loss on either side, so it's going to be a struggle to prove the consideration portion of the contract happened if he wanted to take it to claims court.


Again, I think you are misunderstanding the legal concept of consideration. The mere exchanging of promises in this case amounts to consideration. I will sell you the cab for $200 + I will buy that cab from you for $200 = offer, acceptance and consideration. That is absolutely clear. Whether the guy drove their, sent a deposit, etc., etc. is completely irrelevant to the issue of whether a contract existed. None of that has anything to do with the legal concept of consideration.



> I don't think we're disagreeing here. Just differing in our degrees of detail in the discussion of _consideration_.


No, I think we fundamentally disagree on whether a contract existed here on not.



> For example: had he driven to the man's house, and then been told that it was sold, you could say that consideration was made because he'd absorbed the cost of the travel in the spirit of completing the deal. But as it stands it was a total wash.


Absolutely incorrect. You're confusing damages with consideration.



> A court can sort it out, but like I said: I'd bet on the outcome and feel pretty safe in that bet. You?


Yes, if they went to court and both sides agreed to the OP's original facts, I'm 100% certain a judge would find that there was a contract. of course, the other guy could deny ever speaking to him, deny making the deal, etc., etc. The judge would have to choose who was the more credible witness. There a lot of factors that come into play at that point. But if the OP could prove his facts, he'd win.




> Absolutely, but there has to be some loss or gain on one or more sides to make it hold up. If that wasn't the case the following conversation in a forum would be disasterous (and think about how many times someone has done this on GC):
> 
> OP: I have a shiny red guitar for sale. $1000
> Responder: Man I love red! If I had the money I'd buy that! Free bump!
> 
> If that statement was binding the OP could, at some point in the future if the guitar hadn't sold, hold the "Responder" to their promise to buy the guitar when they came into the money.


That has nothing to do with consideration. That's a lack of agreement, or "meeting of the minds". No acceptance.




> I think it'd get tossed, not because of the low value, but because NIK0 wasn't out anything when the agreement was canceled by the seller. He did it in time. He'd get a cooling-off pass is my bet.


Then you'd be applying the wrong measure of damages.

We seem to be getting off topic. My point was simply that "it's not legally binding until money is exchanged" (or "until he drove across town") is not a good argument to support what the seller did to the OP. Because that's not correct. If the facts explained by the OP are true, then he had a legally binding contract. If you agree to sell someone a specific item at a specific price at a specific time, and he agrees to purchase that item, at that price, at that time, you are legally bound to sell that item at that price at that time. You could put conditions on it, like "...unless I get another offer" or "...only if you're the first guy here with cash", but if you don't do that, then you have an unconditional contract. End of story. Of course, it's easy for one side to breach that contract, and enforcement of the contract is almost never worth the trouble if it's for something of relatively low value. I guess that's "the law of Craigslist". Still, to me, a contract is a contract.


----------



## hollowbody

Big_Daddy said:


> I heard a great definition of integrity.....
> 
> "Integrity is doing what you said you were going to do, even tho you don't feel like it anymore."
> 
> I haven't heard one person here suggest that, just because he wanted to get a better deal, the original seller (or anyone else) has no integrity. He only lost integrity when he gave his word and didn't keep it. It's very simple. If you give your word to someone, stranger or not, keep it. If you are waiting or expecting or hoping for a better offer, than just say so. You don't lose your integrity by doing that. In fact, you come off as an honest upfront, kind of guy by doing so.


What about the integrity of his original ad??? He's being true to himself by sticking to his guns and going out and getting that $250! hwopv


----------



## al3d

Hum...i've always been looking for an idea for a cool movie script..i think i found it..

THe man with no Intergrity and Honor who destroyed the musician's life..


----------



## keeperofthegood

Skndstry said:


> Yes indeed. You are right. We should strive to be better. But not be surprised when some aren't. The Internet may be new, but Caveat Emptor is an ancient concept, and I have had deals go sour face to face as well.
> 
> Let's try to agree on one thing - nobody lost anything here. Somebody did not get to buy an item at a ridiculously low price that was never theirs. Our potntial buyer still has $200 in his pocket, and a lesson learned.
> 
> Somebody was going to get screwed for sure, but looked at another way, if this deal HAD gone down, the one getting screwed would have been the seller.


Oh agreed on that. This I think is why I say we should keep our expectations up and not lower them. That old saw about inches and miles. I agree too, some people end up disappointing and there is little anyone can do about a disappointment.

Actually, as was mentioned, the original price on this item was what, 500 dollars? @[email protected] now, I question why someone would sell for soooooo much less than that. Especially if it is something who's value is generally considered retained. Could it be stolen? Could it be needed to make money as someone said for crack? Could it be some dude spewed all over it and the stink wont come out? Sometimes a fast sale is needed for "reasons" and thats said with a long wink, and sometimes you don't want someone else's reasons :/

Sometimes in life, the fish that got away was our lucky day though we didn't know it.


----------



## greco

keeperofthegood said:


> Sometimes in life, the fish that got away was our lucky day though we didn't know it.


*Keep*....cool saying...must remember that one.

I'm not commentig any further...I'm waiting for *al3d*'s DVD to hit the shelves

Cheers

Dave


----------



## Skndstry

Big_Daddy said:


> I heard a great definition of integrity.....
> 
> "Integrity is doing what you said you were going to do, even tho you don't feel like it anymore."
> 
> I haven't heard one person here suggest that, just because he wanted to get a better deal, the original seller (or anyone else) has no integrity.


Sorry - but that's a pretty linear, self-serving answer. You've just picked the definition that suits you. 

"Just because he wanted to get a better deal", or "Knew the thing was a steal, and thought he'd try to pay $50 less AND set the terms for when he would make his way over to pick it up too."

Put it this way. I go to Cuba. I make in an hour what the poor bastard selling the hats makes in two months. Do I try to talk him down two pesos? Some people do, some people don't. To me, integrity is recognizing that I'm asking for a week of his pay and taking food out of his month for my own enjoyment. 

You can dig in on the "a deal's a deal" position all you like. But in this case, nobody got ripped off, or sold a piece of crap. It's really all about coming out ahead. 




Is that integrity?


----------



## Big_Daddy

Skndstry said:


> Sorry - but that's a pretty linear, self-serving answer. You've just picked the definition that suits you.
> 
> "Just because he wanted to get a better deal", or "Knew the thing was a steal, and thought he'd try to pay $50 less AND set the terms for when he would make his way over to pick it up too."
> 
> Put it this way. I go to Cuba. I make in an hour what the poor bastard selling the hats makes in two months. Do I try to talk him down two pesos? Some people do, some people don't. To me, integrity is recognizing that I'm asking for a week of his pay and taking food out of his month for my own enjoyment.
> 
> You can dig in on the "a deal's a deal" position all you like. But in this case, nobody got ripped off, or sold a piece of crap. It's really all about coming out ahead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that integrity?


So, I have an item for sale. I am asking $250 for it. You make me an offer of $200. I say, "SOLD!". We have made a deal and agreed on it. You've given your word of honour that you will give me $200 and come to pick it up tomorrow and I have given you my word that the item will be there when you come to get it. This means that the item is no longer "for sale". Isn't that what "SOLD" means? We have now made a morally binding agreement. There is nothing more to it, it's a deal. The monetary transaction on the following day is just the final part of the deal. If I change my mind and sell it to some one else for more money after that, I have broken the agreement that we made. When (or If) I call you up and say I changed my mind and sold it to some one else for more money, what I'm really saying to you is "I don't give a rat's ass about you or our deal."

Is that integrity?


----------



## al3d

greco said:


> *Keep*....cool saying...must remember that one.
> 
> I'm not commentig any further...I'm waiting for *al3d*'s DVD to hit the shelves
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


LOL..yes..i'm already looking for an actor who can portray a man without integrity and Honnor and that might even look Evil...was thinking maybe jack nicholson, but he's getting a bit old...so i tough ok...Jack Black would be perfect..











And maybe for the Victime, the one who lost it all....John Heder, i'm sure he would nail the part..


----------



## nitehawk55

GuitarsCanada said:


> Honest, but $50.00 lighter in his wallet. Without knowing that persons personal situation we cannot judge him. His error IMO was to not allow the original (contact) the opportunity to match the new offer. This dude may have been in a desperate financial situation. he may have owed a grand to his crack dealer for all we know. Hard to place a lable on people without knowing the motivations for selling.


You know it's possable the seller had a change of heart about selling the cab ( for many reasons we don't know of ) and tried to back out gracefully in the way he felt it best to play it out . He may have been worried that if he was honest in telling the buyer he decided not to sell it now that the buyer may have pressured him or become angry . 
We have made all kinds of judgements about what happened but non of us really know what went down from the sellers end , it's all speculation , integrity may of had nothing to do with it .

Write up the script al3d , you have a great idea there with the actors you chose....this could make a great movie based on some of the stuff coming out on the big screen these days


----------



## al3d

Now one thing i've had in my head since this whole Circus started....Some people are all talk about intregrity, honnor, etc etc. So let's take this to another level.

someone in your family dies and you Inherited a Gibson les Paul 1959, Now, street value is about 350 000$ US right now. You decide you don't wanna go trough hoops to sell it, so you put some adds for 250 000$. This would help you get your dream house. now, 1hrs after you post your add, someone serious calls you, goes trought the whole thing about been real or not, and sais..OK...200 000$ and i'll go tomorrow. you're going Apeshit with joy and thinking you're finaly getting your dream house. now, a few hrs someone else calls, and asked the same questions...but you tell him, comeone is comming tomorow, and he tells you, are you SURE!....and he offers you 250 000$ Cash, and he's gonna be there in 10 minutes.

Now, what idiot would actually say NO...i have intergrety, and will loose 50 000$ cause i'm a man of my word!!!

OK, now calling the other dude and asking him if he wants to match the offer would be the logical thing to do!....

But like in any story, we only have one version of the facts. so this situation can be discussed until pigs can fly basicaly and it wont change anything. Money talks..BS walks. and the moral of this story is?...easy, when you find a deal that's insane, don't sit on your ass...get in your car, and DRIVE DRIVE and get it. Can't be easier then that basicaly.


----------



## greco

al3d said:


> Now one thing i've had in my head since this whole Circus started....Some people are all talk about intregrity, honnor, etc etc. So let's take this to another level.
> 
> someone in your family dies and you Inherited a Gibson les Paul 1959, Now, street value is about 350 000$ US right now. You decide you don't wanna go trough hoops to sell it, so you put some adds for 250 000$. This would help you get your dream house. now, 1hrs after you post your add, someone serious calls you, goes trought the whole thing about been real or not, and sais..OK...200 000$ and i'll go tomorrow. you're going Apeshit with joy and thinking you're finaly getting your dream house. now, a few hrs someone else calls, and asked the same questions...but you tell him, comeone is comming tomorow, and he tells you, are you SURE!....and he offers you 250 000$ Cash, and he's gonna be there in 10 minutes.
> 
> Now, what idiot would actually say NO...i have intergrety, and will loose 50 000$ cause i'm a man of my word!!!
> 
> OK, now calling the other dude and asking him if he wants to match the offer would be the logical thing to do!....
> 
> But like in any story, we only have one version of the facts. so this situation can be discussed until pigs can fly basicaly and it wont change anything. Money talks..BS walks. and the moral of this story is?...easy, when you find a deal that's insane, don't sit on your ass...get in your car, and DRIVE DRIVE and get it. Can't be easier then that basicaly.


This thread just keeps getting better and better.

Dave


----------



## 4345567

al3d said:


> someone in your family dies and you Inherited a Gibson les Paul 1959, Now, street value is about 350 000$ US right now. You decide you don't wanna go trough hoops to sell it, so you put some adds for 250 000$. This would help you get your dream house. now, 1hrs after you post your add, someone serious calls you, goes trought the whole thing about been real or not, and sais..OK...200 000$ and i'll go tomorrow. you're going Apeshit with joy and thinking you're finaly getting your dream house. now, a few hrs someone else calls, and asked the same questions...but you tell him, comeone is comming tomorow, and he tells you, are you SURE!....and he offers you 250 000$ Cash, and he's gonna be there in 10 minutes.
> 
> Now, what idiot would actually say NO...i have intergrety, and will loose 50 000$ cause i'm a man of my word!!!


If the guy you originally had the deal with at $200k can prove that you had a deal (either through an e-mail chain or otherwise), you would be putting yourself at significant risk by accepting the $250k offer. There's an excellent chance you'd end up getting sued for $150k (i.e. the difference between the agreed selling price of $200k and the $350k it would cost that original guy to buy another one).

Now, what idiot would actually expose himself to a liability of $150k in order to get an extra $50k?

One who thought that contracts law don't apply to deals done via Craigslist, I guess.


----------



## Big_Daddy

I've read back over this whole thread and, obviously, have pissed off a lot of people with my comments and "moralistic preaching". I am not going to apologize to anyone for my beliefs. It's the way I was raised and who I am. I'm certainly not perfect and have made many morally wrong decisions in my life, hurting some good people along the way. In the end, we all do the best we can and try to make ourselves better from our mistakes, hopefully. I _will_ apologize, though, to anyone who thought I was in any way insulting their integrity. I was not making a personal attack against _anyone_ in this forum . I am sorry some people took it that way.

bd


----------



## al3d

nkjanssen said:


> If the guy you originally had the deal with at $200k can prove that you had a deal (either through an e-mail chain or otherwise), you would be putting yourself at significant risk by accepting the $250k offer. There's an excellent chance you'd end up getting sued for $150k (i.e. the difference between the agreed selling price of $200k and the $350k it would cost that original guy to buy another one).
> 
> Now, what idiot would actually expose himself to a liability of $150k in order to get an extra $50k?
> 
> One who thought that contracts law don't apply to deals done via Craigslist, I guess.


please find me the LAW that make your claim Legit....that's more of an urban legend then anything else.


----------



## 4345567

al3d said:


> please find me the LAW that make your claim Legit....that's more of an urban legend then anything else.


You've got to be kidding me. "Urban legend"?!

Check any 1st year law school contracts text, Chapter 1, page 1.


----------



## al3d

nkjanssen said:


> You've got to be kidding me. "Urban legend"?!
> 
> Check any 1st year law school contracts text, Chapter 1, page 1.


Dude,...i'de LOVE to see an REAL exemple of what you're saying. Not a judge in his right mind would even take the case. He would tell the plaintiff the same thing any reasonnable man would have said.." you should have gotten off your ass and get the deal right away if it was that good" Case dismissed.


----------



## Skndstry

I never said the guy who sold it out for under our boy who started the thread had integrity. 

But like I said Big Daddy - you've taken one version of the story and aren't willing to consider any nuance, so you've essentially proven what I said. Linear thought - black and white. Pick what you think is an inarguable point, and stay with it. 

I don't think there was a clear right or wrong in this. As I said right off the bat - you decide to dicker and barter, then you've made it clear you are only out for your best interest. Don't be surprised if the other guy does the same. 

I'm out.


----------



## keeperofthegood

Cough cough and um:

Fundamentals of Canadian Business Law

http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/dl/free/0070961379/580512/Willes_2Ce_03.pdf


Chapter 3 of the book on the matter which Law Students study

Chapter 3 *Formation of a Valid Contract *

Worth the read folks.


----------



## 4345567

al3d said:


> Dude,...i'de LOVE to see an REAL exemple of what you're saying.


Dude, offer + acceptance + consideration = contract. That's "Law 101, day 1".

I'll say it again, if you agree to sell a specific item to a person for a specific price within a specific time, and that person agrees to buy that specific item at that specific price within that specific time, you have a contract. If the buyer is ready, willing and able to meet their end of the bargain, and you go and sell it to someone else for a higher price, you've breached that contract. It doesn't matter whether you met the guy through Craigslist or he's been a long-time friend. It's still a contract.

The measure of damages for your breach is the amount it would take to put the innocent party (i.e. the buyer) in the position he would have been in had you met your obligations. In your example, you are going to have to put him, financially, in the same position he would have been in had he been able to buy a $350k guitar for $200k. That means you owe him $150k in damages for breach of contract.

If you're backing out on a guy on an item worth $200 - $400, he's probably not going to do anything. If it's worth $350k, he probably will.


----------



## al3d

keeperofthegood said:


> Cough cough and um:
> 
> Fundamentals of Canadian Business Law
> 
> http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/dl/free/0070961379/580512/Willes_2Ce_03.pdf
> 
> 
> Chapter 3 of the book on the matter which Law Students study
> 
> Chapter 3 *Formation of a Valid Contract *
> 
> Worth the read folks.


If you had studes law...first thing they teach you is what's in the book..and what happens in REAL life, are TOTALY different things. I took a client to court 3 years ago, for one of those so called "verbal agreement, and i lost big. Ruling was!"..no signed contract...no deal. the whole verbal thing never gets far because it's your word..again'st mine


----------



## al3d

Sorry mate, you'll never make me swallow that BS for real life situation. 



nkjanssen said:


> Dude, offer + acceptance + consideration = contract. That's "Law 101, day 1".
> 
> I'll say it again, if you agree to sell a specific item to a person for a specific price within a specific time, and that person agrees to buy that specific item at that specific price within that specific time, you have a contract. If the buyer is ready, willing and able to meet their end of the bargain, and you go and sell it to someone else for a higher price, you've breached that contract. It doesn't matter whether you met the guy through Craigslist or he's been a long-time friend. It's still a contract.
> 
> The measure of damages for your breach is the amount it would take to put the innocent party (i.e. the buyer) in the position he would have been in had you met your obligations. In your example, you are going to have to put him, financially, in the same position he would have been in had he been able to buy a $350k guitar for $200k. That means you owe him $150k in damages for breach of contract.
> 
> If you're backing out on a guy on an item worth $200 - $400, he's probably not going to do anything. If it's worth $350k, he probably will.


----------



## keeperofthegood

al3d said:


> If you had studes law...first thing they teach you is what's in the book..and what happens in REAL life, are TOTALY different things. I took a client to court 3 years ago, for one of those so called "verbal agreement, and i lost big. Ruling was!"..no signed contract...no deal. the whole verbal thing never gets far because it's your word..again'st mine


Oh I know Alain that a pure verbal contract is very hard to take to court. In the case of on-line sales though, the email communications become a papered representation of the verbal contract. Same as a verbal contract being recorded on a video for instance.

"Get it in writing" as they say, carries the power, that I wholly agree with 

But in essence, when a seller posts to a sale site "FOR SALE" and then corresponds via email and in email negotiates that sale, those emails are your contracted terms. In them, you no longer have an un-papered contract, you do "have it in writing".

:/ no accounting for His Worship if His Worship has a bad day though


----------



## 4345567

al3d said:


> Sorry mate, you'll never make me swallow that BS for real life situation.



There are hundreds of years of caselaw to back up what I said. It's trite law that has been applied hundreds of thousands of times in courts all through the Commonwealth.

You are, of course, free to believe whatever you wish to believe though.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

keeperofthegood said:


> Cough cough and um:
> 
> Fundamentals of Canadian Business Law
> 
> http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/dl/free/0070961379/580512/Willes_2Ce_03.pdf
> 
> 
> Chapter 3 of the book on the matter which Law Students study
> 
> Chapter 3 *Formation of a Valid Contract *
> 
> Worth the read folks.


Oh well, thats simple to get out of. He was drunk when he told the guy he could have it for $200 case closed


----------



## al3d

keeperofthegood said:


> Oh I know Alain that a pure verbal contract is very hard to take to court. In the case of on-line sales though, the email communications become a papered representation of the verbal contract. Same as a verbal contract being recorded on a video for instance.
> 
> "Get it in writing" as they say, carries the power, that I wholly agree with
> 
> But in essence, when a seller posts to a sale site "FOR SALE" and then corresponds via email and in email negotiates that sale, those emails are your contracted terms. In them, you no longer have an un-papered contract, you do "have it in writing".
> 
> :/ no accounting for His Worship if His Worship has a bad day though


Email can be forged in 2 seconds flat. All these "theories" are all nice, but i've been to court MORE times then some lawyer will have in the life because of the shitty nature of my work..as a witness 99% of the time..not a plaintiff or accused. and trust me when i say..when's written and what happens...TOTALY 2 different things. 

Like i said, i'll put up a Gibson Les Paul for sale right on this forum, for 100$. first one that contacts me get it...but it as to be cash money...so if someone AFTER you made the offer comes in and offers me 300$..and he gets it..i DARE YOU to sue me....just to see the judge's face when you try to explain your case..

PS..not talking directly at you keeperofthegood..more of a general idea..


----------



## keeperofthegood

GuitarsCanada said:


> Oh well, thats simple to get out of. He was drunk when he told the guy he could have it for $200 case closed


hahaha 99 bottles of beer... um, wait, where they go... hey, man whys my gee tar so quiet ...




al3d said:


> Email can be forged in 2 seconds flat. All these "theories" are all nice, but i've been to court MORE times then some lawyer will have in the life because of the shitty nature of my work..as a witness 99% of the time..not a plaintiff or accused. and trust me when i say..when's written and what happens...TOTALY 2 different things.
> 
> Like i said, i'll put up a Gibson Les Paul for sale right on this forum, for 100$. first one that contacts me get it...but it as to be cash money...so if someone AFTER you made the offer comes in and offers me 300$..and he gets it..i DARE YOU to sue me....just to see the judge's face when you try to explain your case..
> 
> PS..not talking directly at you keeperofthegood..more of a general idea..


XD I know, I realise. Education doesn't come from a lot of simple head nodding. We all share experiences and information. Eventually some understandings do arise, and maybe new questions or ideas get put forward to pursue. Who knows, there are teens on this forum and there may just be a few reading this thread avidly without commenting wondering where it will lead who may become inspired to go into law because of this. We will never know of course, but then, stranger things have happened too


----------



## ajcoholic

I dont know how this is now a discussion on law, selling 59' LP's, and cheating on your wife...

Lets get back to reality...

If you make a deal with someone (anyone, whether you know them or not) to sell an item for "X" number of dollars.... then decide to sell it to someone else (I dont care if it was for more money, less money, the same money, its irrelevant to me) you have no reason to be trusted. You broke your word... and thats that.

What I really dont understand, is how people can consider themselves honest and say they deal with integrity - but in the same breath say "money is king" and "you snooze you loose...." 

Hey, people have told me I am crazy to send stuff like brand new guitars to other's to try out before any money changes hands, thats fine. I have been called stupid, and worse. It doesnt make me feel bad and in a discussion such as this, it goes both ways... so no one take what I say personally. But I am still surprised at how many feel its fine to wheel and deal AFTER a deal has been struck.

Maybe I will just stay out of the open mic... back to luthiers forum for me...

AJC


----------



## al3d

AJ..you keep forgeting that there is always 2 sides of a story..we only heard one.


----------



## NIK0

I wonder if Michael Jackson's glove was sold via Craigslist?


----------



## al3d

NIK0 said:


> I wonder if Michael Jackson's glove was sold via Craigslist?


don't know about the glove..but i think they tried to sell his nose on Kijii..


----------



## NIK0

al3d said:


> If you had studes law...first thing they teach you is what's in the book..and what happens in REAL life, are TOTALY different things. I took a client to court 3 years ago, for one of those so called "verbal agreement, and i lost big. Ruling was!"..no signed contract...no deal. the whole verbal thing never gets far because it's your word..again'st mine


I work with a lawyer and we laughed at my situation...just conversation...but I was curious if verbal agreements are legally bingding. So I asked him the question and the answer is "technically yes". However you would have to prove that the verbal agreement has been made. If I recorded the conversation and it was admissable in court, well it would be in my favor. 9 times out of 10 these verbal agreements don't stand up in court as there is no evidence. 

I'm not saying that I am even thinking about this but since I read these comments by others, I was curious to see what the law says.

People...I'm reading through this thread and I feel I may have started something that has prompted serious difference of opinions and everyone is reacting to it. The theory of kaos is clearly evident here 

Let us all get along and not forget why we are all members here!!! sdsre


----------



## NIK0

greco said:


> This thread just keeps getting better and better.
> 
> Dave


LOL...couldn't agree more :smile:


----------



## NIK0

You know those emails that get sent out to 10 people but then make it around to the entire world???

I think I may have found a topic to try this out and be the next guy to make you feel guilty to send it to 10 people "OR ELSE!!!"


----------



## NIK0

I almost feel like the bad guy here after reviewing everyone's comments  

Never meant for this to take on the tone that it has...feel like I need to apologize for getting everyone wound up.


----------



## nitehawk55

NIK0 said:


> I almost feel like the bad guy here after reviewing everyone's comments
> 
> Never meant for this to take on the tone that it has...feel like I need to apologize for getting everyone wound up.


Don't worry on it , we were overdue for a good scrap on here :sport-smiley-002: kkjuw 9kkhhd


----------



## guitarman2

No one ever thought that maybe that this is how this particular seller has his own way of dealing with those pesky low ballers. Maybe he's tired of those guys that can't be satisfied unless they are getting something for almost nothing. So he say's "yeah sure I'll take $200" just to get the OP's hopes up. Then bam, lets him down hard. Its about as legitimate a theory as any since no one, not even the OP knows the real story behind this.


----------



## NIK0

guitarman2 said:


> No one ever thought that maybe that this is how this particular seller has his own way of dealing with those pesky low ballers. Maybe he's tired of those guys that can't be satisfied unless they are getting something for almost nothing. So he say's "yeah sure I'll take $200" just to get the OP's hopes up. Then bam, lets him down hard. Its about as legitimate a theory as any since no one, not even the OP knows the real story behind this.


Interesting way of looking at it! The guy was asking $250 "or best offer". It was heavily gigged and had to drive an hour to pick it up. He was totally cool with my offer and emailed me his: First name, Last name, FULL ADDRESS and home phone number. Yah, that sounds like a guy who wants to teach me a lesson :smile:

Apparently I'm a baller now...I here that hip hop beat in the background as I'm walking...going to roll up one of my pant cuffs up to my knee and pull of a sprained ankle walk. Boom cheekee cheeke boom cheekee cheekee click 

You guys are reading into all this way to much. I'm not suggesting to read this book by its cover but gawd damn I have provided you with every single detail in this matter. It really was that black and white and what it comes down to IS integrity. My only issue is that he could have called to tell me that someone else offered him more. Giving me the opportunity to match or beat the price would have been way cooler than emailing me on Saturday night with the words..."Sold". Nothing else! If any of you pull something like that here...well I don't think you will be a GCer after something like that. You make an agreement with someone...at least give them the COURTESY!!! That's all folks!


----------



## Rick31797

If you know its a great deal how about making arrangments too meet and then see if he will move on the price a bit.. might have made the difference, but , its history now.
Rick


----------



## GuitarsCanada

I am willing to bet $1000 that the $50.00 was gas money. Any takers? 9kkhhd


----------



## ajcoholic

GuitarsCanada said:


> I am willing to bet $1000 that the $50.00 was gas money. Any takers? 9kkhhd


$hit... $50 in the tank doesnt even get me to work and back one time...:rockon2:

AJC


----------



## GuitarsCanada

NIK0 said:


> Interesting way of looking at it! The guy was asking $250 "or best offer". It was heavily gigged and had to drive an hour to pick it up. He was totally cool with my offer and emailed me his: First name, Last name, FULL ADDRESS and home phone number. Yah, that sounds like a guy who wants to teach me a lesson :smile:
> 
> Apparently I'm a baller now...I here that hip hop beat in the background as I'm walking...going to roll up one of my pant cuffs up to my knee and pull of a sprained ankle walk. Boom cheekee cheeke boom cheekee cheekee click
> 
> You guys are reading into all this way to much. I'm not suggesting to read this book by its cover but gawd damn I have provided you with every single detail in this matter. It really was that black and white and what it comes down to IS integrity. My only issue is that he could have called to tell me that someone else offered him more. Giving me the opportunity to match or beat the price would have been way cooler than emailing me on Saturday night with the words..."Sold". Nothing else! Any of you do that to anyone here...I don't think you will be a GCer after something like that. You make an agreement with someone...at least give them the COURTESY!!! That's all folks!


NIKO, of course you are right. 100% right. Some people are just having fun now and knowing the group of people we have here, I would deal with every person that posted on this thread without a worry. Some comments have been overboard. I apologize if my first one set you off. I think you know from the other posts I made where I was coming from. Bottom line, stick with GC bro and the people here. They are a great bunch of gear freaks.


----------



## Rick31797

As far as verbal agreements being made.. i was always under the impression that, you cannot record and person and use it against them, unless they know they are being recorded.
If you phone a insurance company or other business, they will say, your conversation is being recorded for quality assurance.

Rick


----------



## NIK0

GuitarsCanada said:


> I am willing to bet $1000 that the $50.00 was gas money. Any takers? 9kkhhd


Woo hoo!!! I drive a V12 and I will take you on that bet. I will leave St. Catherines at 4pm, arrive in New Market around 5:30pm and then drive back. It ain't cheap bro. Please don't lecture me on my choice of vehicle...I happen to like the good things in life and it is not relevant in this case. I am willing to bet that if I offered the guy his asking price that the exact same scenario would have panned out as someone showed up at his door to pick it up and he had ZERO consideration for anyone else.


----------



## keeperofthegood

Rick31797 said:


> As far as verbal agreements being made.. i was always under the impression that, you cannot record and person and use it against them, unless they know they are being recorded.
> If you phone a insurance company or other business, they will say, your conversation is being recorded for quality assurance.
> 
> Rick


That comes under surveillance laws. I recall this was before the supreme court back in 1985 or '86 there abouts because of the new proliferation of camcorders.


----------



## NIK0

Rick31797 said:


> As far as verbal agreements being made.. i was always under the impression that, you cannot record and person and use it against them, unless they know they are being recorded.
> If you phone a insurance company or other business, they will say, your conversation is being recorded for quality assurance.
> 
> Rick


That was exactly my point which is why 90% of the time this method does not work. Email is great...I have that...it cleary shows his acknowledgment. Do I care right now...nope!


----------



## NIK0

GuitarsCanada said:


> NIKO, of course you are right. 100% right. Some people are just having fun now and knowing the group of people we have here, I would deal with every person that posted on this thread without a worry. Some comments have been overboard. I apologize if my first one set you off. I think you know from the other posts I made where I was coming from. Bottom line, stick with GC bro and the people here. They are a great bunch of gear freaks.



Nothing set me off and I would do business with all GCers any day as well. I think the lesson learned here is protect your interests in anticipation of an event like this. I have only the best of experiences here and that won't change. Like I said, this thread has certainly taken a life of its own and it is interesting to get everyone's take on it whether they are serious or not.


----------



## al3d

Well..in the end...the lesson learn here is simple..when a deal present it self..don't wait..go it NOW..


----------



## Rick31797

If you watch some of the court TV shows Email is Great.. Courts will except this as proof.. so if the guy did except your offer through email then it could be considered a binding contract.

Rick


----------



## guitarman2

NIK0 said:


> Woo hoo!!! I drive a V12 and I will take you on that bet. I will leave St. Catherines at 4pm, arrive in New Market around 5:30pm and then drive back. It ain't cheap bro. Please don't lecture me on my choice of vehicle...I happen to like the good things


Well then ante up and pay Mike Zaite $500 US for a brand new Dr Z 2X10 cab. It aint hard. Cripes I paid close to double that for one of his reverb units. And I don't drive V12's.


----------



## Big_Daddy

Skndstry said:


> But like I said Big Daddy - you've taken one version of the story and aren't willing to consider any nuance, so you've essentially proven what I said. Linear thought - black and white. Pick what you think is an inarguable point, and stay with it.



Impressive. I make a few observations about what I consider to be morally right and wrong and you feel the need to insult me. WTF? This thread really has taken on a weird life of its own. First time I've ever been called linear, too. LOL.


----------



## ne1roc

NIK0 said:


> Woo hoo!!! I drive a V12 and I will take you on that bet. I will leave St. Catherines at 4pm, arrive in New Market around 5:30pm and then drive back. It ain't cheap bro. Please don't lecture me on my choice of vehicle...I happen to like the good things in life and it is not relevant in this case. I am willing to bet that if I offered the guy his asking price that the exact same scenario would have panned out as someone showed up at his door to pick it up and he had ZERO consideration for anyone else.


Hmmm......you drive a Jag? And you have some really nice gear, judging by your signature!
Man.........just go out and buy yourself a brand new cabinet!


----------



## ne1roc

guitarman2 said:


> Well then ante up and pay Mike Zaite $500 US for a brand new Dr Z 2X10 cab. It aint hard. Cripes I paid close to double that for one of his reverb units. And I don't drive V12's.


Ha ha, you beat me to it!


----------



## guitarman2

Big_Daddy said:


> Impressive. I make a few observations about what I consider to be morally right and wrong and you feel the need to insult me. WTF? This thread really has taken on a weird life of its own. First time I've ever been called linear, too. LOL.



Gawd, you think thats being insulted? I've taken worse ribbin from my buds. Thicken up the old skin.


----------



## NIK0

guitarman2 said:


> Well then ante up and pay Mike Zaite $500 US for a brand new Dr Z 2X10 cab. It aint hard. Cripes I paid close to double that for one of his reverb units. And I don't drive V12's.


:smile: That's like saying don't by used from GCers. :smile:

Doesn't make sense and for people that monitor their cash flows...this B&S market is the only way to do business. Everyone wins in the end as opposed to buying new. Not saying that supporting your local guitar shop is bad but during these tough economic times and uncertainties with our direction, it is a better alternative. 

We all benefit from making friends by using this kind of service and as a result hang and record with some of you. Now that for me is everything!


----------



## Big_Daddy

guitarman2 said:


> Gawd, you think thats being insulted? I've taken worse ribbin from my buds. Thicken up the old skin.


Ha ha ...I take lots worse from my buds as well. Just not used to getting it from strangers on public forums. :smile::smile:


----------



## guitarman2

NIK0 said:


> :smile: That's like saying don't by used from GCers. :smile:
> 
> Doesn't make sense and for people that monitor their cash flows...this B&S market is the only way to do business. Everyone wins in the end as opposed to buying new. Not saying that supporting your local guitar shop is bad but during these tough economic times and uncertainties with our direction, it is a better alternative.
> 
> We all benefit from making friends by using this kind of service and as a result hang and record with some of you. Now that for me is everything!


Ok tough economic times now. Better park that V12. You made coffee come out of my nose.


----------



## NIK0

You know...a good friend of mine is an editor for the Toronto Sun...I really have to forward him this thread. This would make a great story. Especially when people suggest that bacause I drive a nice car and work hard for what I got...that I have have to pay top dollar for everything and should only buy new. Lovely poeple :smile:

Based on that recommendation...we should screen our members for the kind of car they drive before allowing them to participate in the B&S section of this site.


----------



## NIK0

guitarman2 said:


> Ok tough economic times now. Better park that V12. You made coffee come out of my nose.


Need a kleenex?


----------



## al3d

NIK0 said:


> You know...a good friend of mine is an editor for the Toronto Sun...I really have to forward him this thread. This would make a great story. Especially when people suggest that bacause I drive a nice car and work hard for what I got...that I have have to pay top dollar for everything and should only buy new. Lovely poeple :smile:
> 
> Based on that recommendation...we should screen our members for the kind of car they drive before allowing them to participate in the B&S section of this site.


Not suggesting you pay top dollars..but does'nt mean you have to get upset when you loose a deal because of a lowball offer either.. but it's well know that rich folks get upset more easily when they don't get what they want... hwopv


----------



## NIK0

al3d said:


> Not suggesting you pay top dollars..but does'nt mean you have to get upset when you loose a deal because of a lowball offer either.. but it's well know that rich folks get upset more easily when they don't get what they want... hwopv


You think missing out on owning this cab was my reason? Or was it really the ethic...think about that because clearly your impression is skewed.

You are all right...I can buy a brand new cab from our good pal Mike Zaite. Do I want to? No...we have a used market. Sony Music doesn't pay me for my shitty playing so going out to justify new gear, well just talk to my wife and see how far you get.


----------



## NIK0

al3d said:


> but it's well know that rich folks get upset more easily when they don't get what they want... hwopv


I have to admit, I find your comment quite amusing :smile:


----------



## al3d

NIK0 said:


> I have to admit, I find your comment quite amusing :smile:


I hope so..cause it was met as a joke..:smilie_flagge17:


----------



## guitarman2

NIK0 said:


> You know...a good friend of mine is an editor for the Toronto Sun...I really have to forward him this thread. This would make a great story. Especially when people suggest that bacause I drive a nice car and work hard for what I got...that I have have to pay top dollar for everything and should only buy new. Lovely poeple :smile:
> 
> Based on that recommendation...we should screen our members for the kind of car they drive before allowing them to participate in the B&S section of this site.



Well the way you carried on and made a big deal out of a deal that is pretty light weight I never would have figured you for a guy that made good money and drove nice cars. If you really wanted that cabinet so much you should have bought new when the other deal fell through. I've spent double that just in guitar cables.
But I figure you really didn't want the cabinet that bad. You saw an opportunity to snipe a "too good to be true", deal and you lost out. No biggie. You lost this one but you'll maybe win the next time.
A guy on here a little while ago had an American Telecaster for what I thought was very low price ($500). I come on a bit too late and someone else got it. I would have taken it without hesitation. Yeah I know its not the same thing. You were wronged, you were violated. But whats the difference. In the end niether one of us got what we wanted.


----------



## guitarman2

NIK0 said:


> Sony Music doesn't pay me for my shitty playing so going out to justify new gear, well just talk to my wife and see how far you get.



aaah. I got it now. The cars hers.


----------



## NIK0

Look people...My whole point...When you say something...Keep your word...At the very least...Email or call and explain the situation.

IS THAT FAIR? 

[email protected] the cab...everyone seems to be missing to point... 

I love you all :smile: 

Peace :smile: Love :smile: Ethics :smile:


----------



## NIK0

guitarman2 said:


> aaah. I got it now. The cars hers.


LOL...shhh...don't tell anyone  LOL, that was good!


----------



## guitarman2

NIK0 said:


> Look people...My whole point...When you say something...Keep your word...At the very least...Email or call and explain the situation.


I think its you who missed the point. Its UNREALISTIC to expect people you don't know to live by your morals.
I wouldn't trust strangers so am not surprised if I find one that doesn't keep their word. You don't trust strangers with your children and you can't trust them to keep their word.
Or are you buying Ocean front property in Arizona?
And perhaps the seller thought the same way. Someone walked in that had the cash right then and there and he figured you probably wouldn't show cause why would he accept the word of someone he doesn't know? For all he knows you're a serial killer.
If this bothers you then you need to either not do business on the Internet or at minimum deal on sites like GC with established members.


----------



## keeperofthegood

NIK0 said:


> Look people...My whole point...When you say something...Keep your word...At the very least...Email or call and explain the situation.
> 
> IS THAT FAIR?
> 
> [email protected] the cab...everyone seems to be missing to point...
> 
> I love you all :smile:
> 
> Peace :smile: Love :smile: Ethics :smile:



[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6yzjDXp_og]L6yzjDXp_og[/youtube]


----------



## GuitarsCanada

This beats the smoking ban thread hands down, thats for sure. I am going to send NIKO a GC guitar strap for providing us with this one. Hell, he lives in St Catharines he can just come and pick it up.


----------



## guitarman2

GuitarsCanada said:


> This beats the smoking ban thread hands down, thats for sure. I am going to send NIKO a GC guitar strap for providing us with this one. Hell, he lives in St Catharines he can just come and pick it up.


Hey is there any chance I can scoop that up before he comes to get it? I'll pay you.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

guitarman2 said:


> Hey is there any chance I can scoop that up before he comes to get it? I'll pay you.


Your not getting any gas money off !!!! But first come, first served.


----------



## al3d

GuitarsCanada said:


> This beats the smoking ban thread hands down, thats for sure. I am going to send NIKO a GC guitar strap for providing us with this one. Hell, he lives in St Catharines he can just come and pick it up.


that's gonna cost him at least 40$ of gas..for a Strap?...you'll need to trough in at least 30$ for his gas..


----------



## NIK0

LOL...Facepalm


----------



## NIK0

That strap is mine! I will buy it...would much rather support this site!


----------



## nitehawk55

Y'know , I think it's been the weather.....been feeling like a good fight lately , glad some others have been too....heeheehee kkjuw

That and my youngest son has been in Afghanistan for a month now......damn I miss him and worry too . 

You sure livened up the place Niko.....we had been overdue for a scrap like I said in my last post !!! 
I think a few members feel better now....aaaaahhhh :smile:


----------



## NIK0

I respect everyone's opinions....we still are all fellow members and look forward to many more debates 

Peace to all! Good night, and good luck...


----------



## 4345567

al3d said:


> Like i said, i'll put up a Gibson Les Paul for sale right on this forum, for 100$. first one that contacts me get it...but it as to be cash money...so if someone AFTER you made the offer comes in and offers me 300$..and he gets it..i DARE YOU to sue me....just to see the judge's face when you try to explain your case..


Interesting that you expressly put a condition in your offer that it has to be paid in cash before someone else comes along.

I didn't see that condition in the OP's post or your hypothetical example.

You do see how that changes the offer, right?

By the way, I actually do have a Les Paul Studio for sale in the Emporium right now for $825. If someone PM'ed me offering to pay that and I e-mailed him back accepting it, then got PM later that day offering me $1,200 for it, do you know what my answer would be? "Sorry, I already have a pending sale. I'll let you know if it doesn't go through." Then I'd give the original guy a reasonable amount of time to pay. It is actually fairly interesting to see how many guys here would snap up the $1,200 and tell the guy they originally cut the deal with to pound salt. I'm definitely taking some mental notes.


----------



## kruts

bagpipe said:


> I always make it crystal clear to potential buyers that the first person to show up at my door, with the cash, is taking it home. I ain't holding it for anybody. Too many instances of "Man, just hold it for a couple of days - I'm good for it" and then they don't show up.


++++100000 

Absolutely agree with the above post 100% 

Cash is king, you're just pissed off that you couldn't get a spanking deal and turn around to sell it for a profit. 9kkhhd


----------



## Metal#J#

^^ Could someone make one of those smiley faces kick a dead horse?


----------



## Guest




----------



## Budda

All this talk makes me think someone should buy my lonely JSX.


----------



## ne1roc

Budda said:


> All this talk makes me think someone should buy my lonely JSX.


I can drive over really fast and pay you $200.00 cash.kkjuw


----------



## al3d

I bow to your intergrity in this shitty world. you are a god among man. is that what you want us mear mortal to tell you!...realy!. next you'll tell us you walk on water to get to work!. If you like loosing money, be it, that's your choice. As nothing to do with honor or intergrity. People that need to push their value so often openly are the one that usualy end-up having none. If i put something for sale...it's first come first serve. Money Talk, BS walks, NOTHING to do with Intergrity or Honor, it's called BUISNESS.

You're making this into a personnal situation. don't know why, don't recall you been in the deal!.

Just in case you have'nt notice, the subject is close. 



nkjanssen said:


> Interesting that you expressly put a condition in your offer that it has to be paid in cash before someone else comes along.
> 
> I didn't see that condition in the OP's post or your hypothetical example.
> 
> You do see how that changes the offer, right?
> 
> By the way, I actually do have a Les Paul Studio for sale in the Emporium right now for $825. If someone PM'ed me offering to pay that and I e-mailed him back accepting it, then got PM later that day offering me $1,200 for it, do you know what my answer would be? "Sorry, I already have a pending sale. I'll let you know if it doesn't go through." Then I'd give the original guy a reasonable amount of time to pay. It is actually fairly interesting to see how many guys here would snap up the $1,200 and tell the guy they originally cut the deal with to pound salt. I'm definitely taking some mental notes.


----------



## NIK0

My fellow GC friends...this is not going in the direction that I had originally intended. 

Everyone's views are duly noted and you can't change somoeone's opinion....can only respect them. I see everyone's side to this, I have my own opinion on this as everyone else has theirs. I moved on shortly after my post, I recommend you do to. 

On the other hand if you want to continue in this vain someone should start up a thread that discusses religion. I'm sure someone will get a free guitar strap there


----------



## keeperofthegood

NIK0 said:


> My fellow GC friends...this is not going in the direction that I had originally intended.
> 
> Everyone's views are duly noted and you can't change somoeone's opinion....can only respect them. I see everyone's side to this, I have my own opinion on this as everyone else has theirs. I moved on shortly after my post, I recommend you do to.
> 
> On the other hand if you want to continue in this vain someone should start up a thread that discusses religion. I'm sure someone will get a free guitar strap there


kkjuw



There is a deeper truth that has fired this thread though Niko and it is one of them "snowball" events. Like taking the band-aid off the bullet wound, it has let out a gush of emotional points of view. Obviously for some months now people have been posting minor rants (myself too) over buyers and sellers and payment methods and shipping and taxes and duties and the list goes on. The large and long running postings really show that there is a LOT of feelings of frustration that people have and have pent up. 

To me it is good. I really do believe that a lot of people have managed to work things out at least for themselves (or opened new doors of understanding or questioning which is also good). I think that a lot of people are going to approach buying and selling differently and hopefully for the better. I think the word is catharsis. It may hurt like heck but you feel soooo much better when you get it off your chest, and I think you managed to help a lot of people here regardless what their opinions are, you gave voice to what was needed to be said by pushing on that snowball at the top of the hill and in that I don't account this discussion in any way a loss.

 and I even got to post that Joy Joy Joy video that was just too awesome!!


----------



## Guest

nkjanssen said:


> Again, I think you are misunderstanding the legal concept of consideration. The mere exchanging of promises in this case amounts to consideration. I will sell you the cab for $200 + I will buy that cab from you for $200 = offer, acceptance and consideration. That is absolutely clear.


You had me doubting my understanding so I revisted the law text I used to study for my P.Eng. license and nope, I'm not confused on consideration. This is a unilateral contract. Money is being offered in exchange for him handing over some goods. There's been no consideration on the part of the seller here because he hasn't made any effort to start the promised action; the exchange hasn't begun. Now, there is a big footnote in my text telling me that Canadian courts are starting to drop the unilateral/bilateral distinction for contracts as it can be difficult to determine when the action that constitutes consideration has taken place but I still believe this one would get tossed in a claim with a "no contract". But hey, IANAL, and I've got very little contract law exposure in my job, so yes, I could be wrong.

There's an example in the text that I think mirrors the situation: engineering firm A is called by firm B and firm B asks them to draft plans for a new building, over the phone. Firm A says they can do it for $1000. A week later Firm B calls Firm A and asks for the plans. At this point Firm A says they're too busy and they've decided not to do the work.

The book example plays out with no contract in this situation claiming the contract was unilateral. Firm A hadn't actually provided consideration and was therefore not bound to do the work.

Is there something substantially different here? That it was physical goods being exchanged for money and not a service? Still doesn't seem, to me at least, that the seller began any action to indicate consideration. He certainly didn't take down the ad or stop listening to offers!




> Whether the guy drove their, sent a deposit, etc., etc. is completely irrelevant to the issue of whether a contract existed. None of that has anything to do with the legal concept of consideration.


On that point I definitely agree now having re-read the chapter on consideration. His driving to pick it up would have be assessed as damages, but not consideration.



> No, I think we fundamentally disagree on whether a contract existed here on not.


Yes, that's clear now! :smile:



> Absolutely incorrect. You're confusing damages with consideration.


I am.



> Yes, if they went to court and both sides agreed to the OP's original facts, I'm 100% certain a judge would find that there was a contract. of course, the other guy could deny ever speaking to him, deny making the deal, etc., etc. The judge would have to choose who was the more credible witness. There a lot of factors that come into play at that point. But if the OP could prove his facts, he'd win.


I still don't think so, but maybe you have experience here I don't (are you lawyer BTW?). My text book makes it sound like it still wasn't a contract but it's all interpretitive and I have no clue what kind of precedence has been set in the 4 years since my textbook was last updated and I even gave a second thought to any of this sort of stuff.



> My point was simply that "it's not legally binding until money is exchanged" (or "until he drove across town") is not a good argument to support what the seller did to the OP. Because that's not correct. If the facts explained by the OP are true, then he had a legally binding contract. If you agree to sell someone a specific item at a specific price at a specific time, and he agrees to purchase that item, at that price, at that time, you are legally bound to sell that item at that price at that time. You could put conditions on it, like "...unless I get another offer" or "...only if you're the first guy here with cash", but if you don't do that, then you have an unconditional contract. End of story. Of course, it's easy for one side to breach that contract, and enforcement of the contract is almost never worth the trouble if it's for something of relatively low value. I guess that's "the law of Craigslist". Still, to me, a contract is a contract.


Certainly the take away here is: be specific when making deals. If you want an out, make sure you say it and if you want to make sure the deal is sealed swap some money. Otherwise you end up with nkjassen and iaresee exchanging rambling posts about "consideration" in your thread you were using to blow off some steam. :smile:


----------



## david henman

...admittedly, i'm giving in to "20/20 hindsight" here, but its obvious that niko should have arranged payment immediately on a "deal" like this, then high-tailed it to the seller's residence to snag the item. but i still maintain the seller is a flake for verbally agreeing to the deal then pulling a fast one without at least contacting niko and giving him a chance to participate.

-dh


----------



## Sneaky

Wowza... Late to the party as usual. I haven't read through all of this but I thought I might as well add my $.02 

At the heart of the issue is whether a contract existed or not. In Canadian Law there are six essential elements that must be in place to create a contract.

the *Intention* by all parties to create a contract
a clear and unconditional *Offer*
a clear and unconditional *Acceptance*
*Consideration* (something of value being given by both parties)
the legal *Capacity* of all parties to make a contract
a *Legal Object *or purpose of the contract

So given what we know from NIKO, there was indeed a verbal contract. The seller was in breach and is therefore found guilty of being a slimeball. 

Case Closed. 










:smile:


----------



## Big_Daddy

Uh-oh...here we go again :smile:


----------



## 4345567

al3d said:


> I bow to your intergrity in this shitty world. you are a god among man. is that what you want us mear mortal to tell you!...realy!. next you'll tell us you walk on water to get to work!. If you like loosing money, be it, that's your choice. As nothing to do with honor or intergrity. People that need to push their value so often openly are the one that usualy end-up having none.


Who's making it personal, here?




> If i put something for sale...it's first come first serve. Money Talk, BS walks, NOTHING to do with Intergrity or Honor, it's called BUISNESS.


If "first come first serve" are the terms, that's fine. Then the deal is first guy to pay me gets it. No commitment to hold. But if I make a firm deal with someone at a set price, he tells me he's going to pay tomorrow and I agree to that, there's no way I'd sell it out from under him later that day. To me, that's not being "godlike". That's just common sense. Maybe it's bad business in the short term, but I think it's good busines in the long term. I'm suprised it's apparantly such an unpopular and uncommon position.


----------



## 4345567

iaresee said:


> Certainly the take away here is: be specific when making deals. If you want an out, make sure you say it and if you want to make sure the deal is sealed swap some money. Otherwise you end up with nkjassen and iaresee exchanging rambling posts about "consideration" in your thread you were using to blow off some steam. :smile:


Now this I agree with!


----------



## guitarman2

nkjanssen said:


> Who's making it personal, here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If "first come first serve" are the terms, that's fine. Then the deal is first guy to pay me gets it. No commitment to hold. But if I make a firm deal with someone at a set price, he tells me he's going to pay tomorrow and I agree to that, there's no way I'd sell it out from under him later that day. To me, that's not being "godlike". That's just common sense. Maybe it's bad business in the short term, but I think it's good busines in the long term. I'm suprised it's apparantly such an unpopular and uncommon position.


I think the big issue is that the OP is so appalled that some stranger would do this to him. Its quite naive to think this doesn't happen all the time. 
I just bought a Fender bar stool off Kijjii. I'm going down thursday night to pick it up. Hopefully he doesn't sell it before I get there after promising it to me. But if he does, what am I gonna do? Not start a 20 page thread thats for sure.


----------



## NIK0

guitarman2 said:


> I think the big issue is that the OP is so appalled that some stranger would do this to him. Its quite naive to think this doesn't happen all the time.
> I just bought a Fender bar stool off Kijjii. I'm going down thursday night to pick it up. Hopefully he doesn't sell it before I get there after promising it to me. But if he does, what am I gonna do? Not start a 20 page thread thats for sure.


Down the street from me, there is this farm and the lady sells about 200 eggs a day. Freshest eggs you can get. She works on the honor system and when you walk into the barn to get your eggs, you leave the money in the basket and go. One day I happen to catch her and we chatted for about 20 minutes and asked if the time she has been doing this has anyone ever just take the eggs without paying. Her answer was no, she always made good on squaring up with the inventory.

I was but wasn't surprised and although I don't just trust a stranger, I do believe there is good in most people. You will always encounter bad seeds in your life but I always give everyone their one chance to prove that they're good. 

In this case my only beef was that he did not call to inform me of the situation and give me a chance to still grab the cab. Otherwise I agree with you...I think it does happen quite a bit, I have been lucky however that I have been meeting good people thus far. I'm sure there is a side of you that hope that the guy with the Fender stool won't prove your impression of the general population to be correct.

There is good in us all, at least most of us! We do demonstrate faith constantly or else we wouldn't be seeing the "Sold pending payment" phrase in most of our ads.


----------



## bagpipe

guitarman2 said:


> I just bought a Fender bar stool off Kijjii. I'm going down thursday night to pick it up. Hopefully he doesn't sell it before I get there after promising it to me. But if he does, what am I gonna do? Not start a 20 page thread thats for sure.


Agreed. A 19 page thread will be plenty for us to run that one into the ground.


----------



## 4345567

guitarman2 said:


> I just bought a Fender bar stool off Kijjii. I'm going down thursday night to pick it up. Hopefully he doesn't sell it before I get there after promising it to me. But if he does, what am I gonna do? Not start a 20 page thread thats for sure.


I don't think he _started_ a 20-page thread. I think it _ended up_ as a 20-page thread. I see threads all the time about "pet peeves" or little things that have annoyed people. Not "oh, my god, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me" type stuff. Just minor griping. I've probably posted one or two of my own, though I don't remember specifically. Usually it's just meant as idle chit-chat, and doesn't turn into a sh!tstorm. This one went Category 5 in a hurry. Not sure why. I've actually found it fairly interesting, though.


----------



## NIK0

nkjanssen said:


> I don't think he _started_ a 20-page thread. I think it _ended up_ as a 20-page thread. I see threads all the time about "pet peeves" or little things that have annoyed people. Not "oh, my god, this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me" type stuff. Just minor griping. I've probably posted one or two of my own, though I don't remember specifically. Usually it's just meant as idle chit-chat, and doesn't turn into a sh!tstorm. This one went Category 5 in a hurry. Not sure why. I've actually found it fairly interesting, though.


I clearly chose a topic that may have dwelling in people's minds and I simply "pushed the snoball down the mountain" as one GCer put it. When I wrote that, I had just got the email from the guy. I admit, I was ticked. I never intended for it to come to this...obviously my emotion quickly fizzled away but it only got everyone else started. All valid opinions in my view. "This is the world we live in", "deal with it" was my take away from all this...and it is true! I learned a lesson with B&S transactions.


----------



## guitarman2

NIK0 said:


> Down the street from me, there is this farm and the lady sells about 200 eggs a day. Freshest eggs you can get. She works on the honor system and when you walk into the barn to get your eggs, you leave the money in the basket and go. One day I happen to catch her and we chatted for about 20 minutes and asked if the time she has been doing this has anyone ever just take the eggs without paying. Her answer was no, she always made good on squaring up with the inventory.
> 
> I was but wasn't surprised and although I don't just trust a stranger, I do believe there is good in most people. You will always encounter bad seeds in your life but I always give everyone their one chance to prove that they're good.
> 
> In this case my only beef was that he did not call to inform me of the situation and give me a chance to still grab the cab. Otherwise I agree with you...I think it does happen quite a bit, I have been lucky however that I have been meeting good people thus far. I'm sure there is a side of you that hope that the guy with the Fender stool won't prove your impression of the general population to be correct.
> 
> There is good in us all, at least most of us! We do demonstrate faith constantly or else we wouldn't be seeing the "Sold pending payment" phrase in most of our ads.


The lady with the eggs is dealing mainly with local people. When you're on the Internet you're dealing with anyone from anywhere. 
Although its annoying when someone sells something that was promised to you I have way more sympathy for the guy that sends his money never to receive the shipment he was promised. This is much more dishonest and inconvenient.
A few years ago I was getting rid of all my expensive camera equipment. I had a couple of DSLR bodies and a number of expensive lenses. I was selling at very good prices. My email was so inundated with emails to buy and I did my best to keep them in order received. But I still had people smearing my name, swearing that they sent their email first and it should go to them. What a pain in the ass it was. I'm pretty sure I kept it fair but for the loss I was taking I was not going to go to anymore effort than what I did. I just wanted the stuff sold. I have sold many things over the Internet and I know what a complete hassle it can be. I've held stuff for people that never showed. Looking back on some of the things I did, I may have not conducted sales in the best way. But I learned from it. Maybe the seller of this speaker cab was inexperienced at this type of thing. Could be some young kid for all we know. Maybe he has no respect or consideration for keeping his word because he was never taught it. The point is, the world is full of people that for one reason or another will do this.


----------



## NIK0

guitarman2 said:


> The lady with the eggs is dealing mainly with local people. When you're on the Internet you're dealing with anyone from anywhere.
> Although its annoying when someone sells something that was promised to you I have way more sympathy for the guy that sends his money never to receive the shipment he was promised. This is much more dishonest and inconvenient.
> A few years ago I was getting rid of all my expensive camera equipment. I had a couple of DSLR bodies and a number of expensive lenses. I was selling at very good prices. My email was so inundated with emails to buy and I did my best to keep them in order received. But I still had people smearing my name, swearing that they sent their email first and it should go to them. What a pain in the ass it was. I'm pretty sure I kept it fair but for the loss I was taking I was not going to go to anymore effort than what I did. I just wanted the stuff sold. I have sold many things over the Internet and I know what a complete hassle it can be. I've held stuff for people that never showed. Looking back on some of the things I did, I may have not conducted sales in the best way. But I learned from it. Maybe the seller of this speaker cab was inexperienced at this type of thing. Could be some young kid for all we know. Maybe he has no respect or consideration for keeping his word because he was never taught it. The point is, the world is full of people that for one reason or another will do this.


Totally with ya! The guy sounded quite mature and sincere...but totally irrelevant! Learned a lesson :smile:


----------



## 4345567

guitarman2 said:


> The lady with the eggs is dealing mainly with local people. When you're on the Internet you're dealing with anyone from anywhere.


True. It's a good idea to take extra precautions when dealing on the internet, but you also shouldn't assume that the guy on the other end is _necessarily_ a schmuck who's out to screw you. I'd say that a third of the deals I do through Craigslist or Kijiji end up being with guys who are friends of friends or from other bands that I've played shows with or sometimes even prominant local musicians. Another third are perfectly honest guys who I've never seen before, have no idea who they are, and will likely never see them again. The last third are guys who I don't know and who would screw me over in an instant if it suited them.

Until you know exactly who you are dealing with, you have to assume that you could be any of those.


----------



## Skndstry

Big_Daddy said:


> Impressive. I make a few observations about what I consider to be morally right and wrong and you feel the need to insult me. WTF? This thread really has taken on a weird life of its own. First time I've ever been called linear, too. LOL.


Big Daddy - you're entitled to your opinion - and on a public forum, I'm entitled to tell you if I think you're wrong. It's a debate - rules of engagement my friend. 

In my line of work, that was a love tap. If I ever insult you, don't worry - you'll know it. 9kkhhd


----------



## Big_Daddy

Skndstry said:


> Big Daddy - you're entitled to your opinion - and on a public forum, I'm entitled to tell you if I think you're wrong. It's a debate - rules of engagement my friend.
> 
> In my line of work, that was a love tap. If I ever insult you, don't worry - you'll know it. 9kkhhd


LOL. Fair enough. :bow:


----------



## Starbuck

Wow, I can't believe this went on for 22pgs.. even after the OP said to chill...


----------



## keeperofthegood

Starbuck said:


> Wow, I can't believe this went on for 22pgs.. even after the OP said to chill...



XD I do. All you need do is look at your settings. For me, this is only page 6.

You know, there are two pages of the 6 of posts that deal with the OP (Niko) and his rant. The other 4 pages are more about identity.

For instance, as a young child we first learn our names by simply saying them. Sometimes saying them a lot. We learn where we live by reciting out address, sometimes more than what was needed for our names. And this pattern goes through life with us.

Here, as adults, we are speaking still. Only, what we are speaking are our moral, ethical, opinionated, positioned positions on how we as people face and interact with life and the other people in it. 

It is a form of self affirmation, a "Hi my name is Keeps, and I feel we have laws that give actions clear meaning". Others have said different such as how I hear Ian, "Hi, I am iaresee and though we have laws we cannot outrightly rely on them, they are open to too much interpretation, so we should deal as though we didn't have them" (forgive me Ian LOL just pulling you out of a hat for this XD). But, by this process we get a chance to know ourselves as reflected by the responses of others, or by our defense of our positions we hold.

This is a topic near and dear to the hearts of many on the forum. We all have GAS and we all love the Buy and Sell. I mean, the number of times people have bought and sold Jon Moores pickups, it is really an amazing thing. I don't know of any other place where not only do we buy and sell unique things, but here it seems the SAME things get bought and sold. I have even seen a few cases of people selling, the buyer a year latter reselling, the original seller having regretted selling buying back 

There have also been a recent spate of bum deals on eBay, or CL or Kj etc, and this thread did snowball and did let people say out loud how they felt. They either got positive or negative affirmation feedback, they either expanded or solidified their personal position. In the end, it is good.

6 pages  not a record discussion by any stretch (my Mrs uses a forum which regularly sees 2000+ replies), but certainly a good one


----------



## nitehawk55

Starbuck said:


> Wow, I can't believe this went on for 22pgs.. even after the OP said to chill...


Me too ! Must have been a slow news week :wave:


----------



## david henman

...any second now someone will come along to complain that this thread is too long.

waiting...

:smile:


----------



## Mooh

Damn this thread is too long. (Okay DH? LOL)

Peace, Mooh.


----------



## david henman

Mooh said:


> Damn this thread is too long. (Okay DH? LOL)
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


...SEE! SEE! WHAT'D I TELL YA!

:smile:


----------



## Rick31797

gess now that you pointed that out.. It is Long, very long..

Rick


----------



## Rick31797

I told my wife about this post and her words are < Thats not right , a deal is a deal.
So as we know women are known for being right all the time, i would have too conclude Niko got the shaft, on this deal. 

Rick


----------



## Big_Daddy

Rick31797 said:


> I told my wife about this post and her words are < Thats not right , a deal is a deal.
> So as we know women are known for being right all the time, i would have too conclude Niko got the shaft, on this deal.
> 
> Rick



Who's NIKO???? I seem to remember somebody by that name way back at the beginning of this mess. :smile::smile::smile:


----------



## NIK0

Big_Daddy said:


> Who's NIKO???? I seem to remember somebody by that name way back at the beginning of this mess.


LOL...I have been watching this silently. I feel if I share my opinion that this thread may break the Michael Jackson death thread record and possibly the H1N1 thread :smile:

I think I have made my opinion loudly here...a lot of you thought that I was in the wrong. I listened to those humans and my take away was that I should have just got up, drove the Newmarket and picked it up while I could.

My opinion on the other hand is much like what I see here on our B&S section where "sold pending payment" is far to common a comment on high in demand items. Clearly a "double standard" is apparent but not a bad thing. Everyone is making the point that we shouldn't trust strangers thru CL and Kijiji but I think we give everyone the benefit to prove us wrong. Our population is made upof good people and that is the case for the majority of us. But we all have been bitten once or twice and a new outlook develops which is why I got the flack. Was I naive...absolutely not! Should I have secured the deal? I tried and offered an EMT payment. Did he accept it? Nope...which is why I thought no problem right? Wrong 

I learned my lesson...no doubt about. I got a lot of flack from my fellow GCers but understand why. On the bright side I scored a free Guitars Canada strap...yippee!!!!:rockon2:

For those of you I got support from...thank you! From those of you who I got flack from...thank you (took it as a lesson), taking it as an insult whould have been ignorant on my part.

Cheers!


----------



## NIK0

Rick31797 said:


> I told my wife about this post and her words are < Thats not right , a deal is a deal.
> So as we know women are known for being right all the time, i would have too conclude Niko got the shaft, on this deal.
> 
> Rick


Wow...supporters...Say hi to the wife for me :smile: kidding


----------



## guitarman2

Rick31797 said:


> I told my wife about this post and her words are < Thats not right , a deal is a deal.
> So as we know women are known for being right all the time, i would have too conclude Niko got the shaft, on this deal.
> 
> Rick


Well of course he got the shaft. I think most would agree on that. But when you get the shaft you don't sit on it and make sure it goes all the way up there causing further grief. Good gawd man, if every one makes this big a deal over something this meaningless in the big scheme of things then no wonder heart attacks are the number 1 killer.


----------



## NIK0

guitarman2 said:


> Well of course he got the shaft. I think most would agree on that. But when you get the shaft you don't sit on it and make sure it goes all the way up there causing further grief. Good gawd man, if every one makes this big a deal over something this meaningless in the big scheme of things then no wonder heart attacks are the number 1 killer.



I think you are one of the the only ones suggesting that we or "NIKO" is making a big deal out of this right now...my first post was passionate but that has become history for me after the second page. Much like you...we are expressing opinions on this subject. Keep your coffee in your nose!

If you are ok with people expressing their opinions in this thread


guitarman2 said:


> Good gawd man, if every one makes this big a deal over something this meaningless


 then don't give them a reason to get a heart attack over your comments that prompts defensive responses.

All we have is our opinions in this matter...

"Good gawd man"...is that ok with you????


----------



## NIK0

guitarman2 said:


> I think the big issue is that the OP is so appalled that some stranger would do this to him. Its quite naive to think this doesn't happen *"all the time." *
> I just bought a Fender bar stool off Kijjii. I'm going down thursday night to pick it up. Hopefully he doesn't sell it before I get there after promising it to me. But if he does, what am I gonna do? Not start a 20 page thread thats for sure.


Let me and everyone on this thread know if this deal pans out tomorrow....I especially really want to know....COOL??????


----------



## 4345567

guitarman2 said:


> Good gawd man, if every one makes this big a deal over something this meaningless in the big scheme of things then no wonder heart attacks are the number 1 killer.


If nobody made a big deal about things that were meaningless in the big scheme of things, internet discussion groups like this one wouldn't exist at all.

...and that's one to grow on.


----------



## Rick31797

I find most people don't think Life issue's are a big deal until it happens too them.
Rick


----------



## NIK0

nkjanssen said:


> If nobody made a big deal about things that were meaningless in the big scheme of things, internet discussion groups like this one wouldn't exist at all.
> 
> ...and that's one to grow on.





Rick31797 said:


> I find most people don't think Life issue's are a big deal until it happens too them.
> Rick


Both points you made are obvious and most subjects are debated/discussed with passion behind their own words.

But every debate nears an end and if you read the last 10 posts it is quite evident that everyone is on the same page...I even went the extra mile to thank those people with a difference of opinion as I learned new perspectives from them as well. I'm just rying to understand why someone would try to add more fuel to a fire that died 48 hours ago?


----------



## TubeStack

Come on boyzz, let's drive this mother to 30 pages, MINIMUM!


----------



## NIK0

TubeStack said:


> Come on boyzz, let's drive this mother to 30 pages, MINIMUM!


kkjuw ya why not, anyone else have something to say that will raise the dead?


----------



## NIK0

When I said let it go a bunch of posts ago...I meant it! When I said I see everyone's side to this all and learned a lesson from you all...I meant it!

Is there something else that was left unsaid?


----------



## guitarman2

NIK0 said:


> Let me and everyone on this thread know if this deal pans out tomorrow....I especially really want to know....COOL??????


Yeah I emailed him my cell# and he emailed me his. I'll be making a special trip down to London for it which is about an hours drive for me. If he were to sell it on me I'd waste my gas down there and about 3 minutes of cursing him out loud. Then I'll forget about it for the rest of my life.


----------



## al3d

Rick31797 said:


> I find most people don't think Life issue's are a big deal until it happens too them.
> Rick


life issue?...missing on an already incredible deal because the OP wanted to skim of the top is a life issue?....LOL..ok.


----------



## NIK0

guitarman2 said:


> Yeah I emailed him my cell# and he emailed me his. I'll be making a special trip down to London for it which is about an hours drive for me. If he were to sell it on me I'd waste my gas down there and about 3 minutes of cursing him out loud. Then I'll forget about it for the rest of my life.


I don't know how to reply to your comment but I have noted your emotional outpours Terry and I don't think it is as simple as you just put it. But here are your comments/posts most relevant to this subject in chrono order.



guitarman2 said:


> Yeah I caught that. Big deal so he gave his word. Apparently he gave it to some one else to. So he broke it to 1 and not the other. Seems like he broke even.





guitarman2 said:


> I think its you who missed the point. Its UNREALISTIC to expect people you don't know to live by your morals.
> I wouldn't trust strangers so am not surprised if I find one that doesn't keep their word. You don't trust strangers with your children and you can't trust them to keep their word.
> Or are you buying Ocean front property in Arizona?
> And perhaps the seller thought the same way. Someone walked in that had the cash right then and there and he figured you probably wouldn't show cause why would he accept the word of someone he doesn't know? For all he knows you're a serial killer.
> If this bothers you then you need to either not do business on the Internet or at minimum deal on sites like GC with established members.





guitarman2 said:


> I think the big issue is that the OP is so appalled that some stranger would do this to him. Its quite naive to think this doesn't happen all the time.
> I just bought a Fender bar stool off Kijjii. I'm going down thursday night to pick it up. Hopefully he doesn't sell it before I get there after promising it to me. But if he does, what am I gonna do? Not start a 20 page thread thats for sure.





guitarman2 said:


> I think its you who missed the point. Its UNREALISTIC to expect people you don't know to live by your morals.
> I wouldn't trust strangers so am not surprised if I find one that doesn't keep their word. You don't trust strangers with your children and you can't trust them to keep their word.
> Or are you buying Ocean front property in Arizona?
> And perhaps the seller thought the same way. Someone walked in that had the cash right then and there and he figured you probably wouldn't show cause why would he accept the word of someone he doesn't know? For all he knows you're a serial killer.
> If this bothers you then you need to either not do business on the Internet or at minimum deal on sites like GC with established members.


My point in all this you ask? 

I thought "how" better to prove my point in the way we generally trust strangers..._important to understand that I give everyone the benefit of the doubt and if you read this entire thread you will know what I experienced was my first bad experience....I have learned from it. _ 

However...the majority came back and gave me flack for being naive, yada...yada...yada.

*Real life scenario:*

So Terry (guitarman2) makes arrangements with a "total stranger" via Kijiji who resides in London, ON. In this entire thread, his posts reflect emotions along the lines of "I don't really care about the outcome of my transactions"...and if it were to go wrong he expresses "I want the satisfaction of telling them off if the barter failed" as long as he had a 3 minute window to present his compilation of insults and rants!

I don't think anyone would be driving all the way to London if this was part of their train of thought. I know one thing...he wouldn't drive to London if it wasn't on the basis of faith in our good human nature. 

SO THIS WAS EXACTLY MY POINT THE WHOLE TIME...I JUST BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE ARE GOOD "IN GENERAL" AND PRACTICE GOOD BUSINESS ETHICS. Probably the very basis of why in 5 years this was my first bad experience.

So I present a real life case study that directly involves Terry! 

So I found the Kijiji ad which is the "tomorrow's" stool purchase that Terry describes and earlier today decided to test the "no one is to be trusted theory" out. (Keep in mind that I never had an intention to pick this up regardless of response from seller...just my own case study). For me it illustrates what I have believed all along in people. 





_You could definitely get one new in the store for the amount you're offering. If my buyer doesn't show tomorrow, I'll accept your first offer of $100.

Best,
Matt

On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Nick xxxxxx <[email protected]> wrote:

How about if I give you $50 more? My dad is old and doesn’t have much left in him. Odd but he always wanted this stool particular stool. Could you do that for me?
Nicholas xxxxxxxxxxx
________________________________________
From: Matthew Poehlman [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 4:46 PM
To: Nick xxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: Reply to your "Fender Musical Instruments Bar Stool Stratocaster Telecaster" Ad on Kijiji

Unfortunately, I have a gentleman coming to pick up the stool tomorrow. He's from Brantford, so he may not show up. If the deal falls through, I'll be happy to sell it to you. I'll let you know tomorrow night whether he comes or not.

Best Regards,
Matt
On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Kijiji Reply (from [email protected]) <[email protected]> wrote:
Hello! The following is a reply to your "Fender Musical Instruments Bar Stool Stratocaster Telecaster" Ad on Kijiji: 
From: [email protected]

It would mean a lot to my dad to have this and I want to present it to him on Christmas. If you have someone else I will give you $25 on top of your asking price.

Please call xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx if you can pull this off for me  _

http://london.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-s...ol-Stratocaster-Telecaster-W0QQAdIdZ163308565




I made this guy two offers, offering more than he was asking and both times he refused. In my mind it represents the vast majority of CL and Kijiji sellers. 

My take away? I was unlucky with dealing with a guy who did not possess integrity or business ethic. I still believe that 99% of sellers out there are honest with the sale and honor some sort of system that encompasses integrity and just being plain old school with their fellow peers in this B&S community.

ENJOY YOUR STOOL!!!

I don't care what anyone says but people in general have good intentions, we all encounter the odd flake.


Cheers to all!!! Be good and be cool!


----------



## NIK0

al3d said:


> life issue?...missing on an already incredible deal because the OP wanted to skim of the top is a life issue?....LOL..ok.


Speakers may have needed replacing...can't see the skimming part...took that into account and so did the seller which is why the price was considered.


----------



## nitehawk55

Wow....this thread has gone beyond getting stupid , I sure didn't expect to see members still churning it up when I just logged on.

I think most will agree that what happened to Niko was sort of wrong and for whatever reason the seller changed his mind , those facts we have all fabricated and none of us really knowing what happened on the sellers end . 

Niko , I think it's all been said and you started a subject that really made some interesting points . You were also understanding and open minded the whole time even when things did get a bit heated for you , some of it for , some against....it's clear there is a divided opinion on what was and what could have been . 

I appreciate your several attempts to say " enough is enough" but clearly that isn't enough for a few on here who just can't seem to leave it be . 

NIKO....You do have the option to go to the 1st post you made and delete this thread . I for one would not blame you . 

Cheers and good luck on your future purchases....it's been a lesson for most all of us ! :smile:


----------



## NIK0

I'm done with this thread...

My final thoughts on this?

Thanks to those who sided with me and expressed my deal was facked. At this point I deserved to come back with a better...well "come back". 

Thanks to those who offered an opinion that was quite opposite of what I thought. I learned a lot from your opinions!!!!!!!!!!! A lot of you are right and made valid points!!!!! 

In the end I just wanted to express disappointment. ..that's all! 

OK OK..Dr.Z Cabs deserve top price regardless of speaker condition...I GOT THAT!!!! A deal is a deal however and I think we should be honest when confirming with a buyer...all we have is our word! 

"sold pending payment" is a common post in our B&S section. Obviously we trust our fellow GCers. Want to know the truth? I never treated any of you differently than a CL of Kijiji poster. I don't think I need to 

Cheers all!!!!


----------



## NIK0

nitehawk55 said:


> Wow....this thread has gone beyond getting stupid , I sure didn't expect to see members still churning it up when I just logged on.
> 
> I think most will agree that what happened to Niko was sort of wrong and for whatever reason the seller changed his mind , those facts we have all fabricated and none of us really knowing what happened on the sellers end .
> 
> Niko , I think it's all been said and you started a subject that really made some interesting points . You were also understanding and open minded the whole time even when things did get a bit heated for you , some of it for , some against....it's clear there is a divided opinion on what was and what could have been .
> 
> I appreciate your several attempts to say " enough is enough" but clearly that isn't enough for a few on here who just can't seem to leave it be .
> 
> NIKO....You do have the option to go to the 1st post you made and delete this thread . I for one would not blame you .
> 
> Cheers and good luck on your future purchases....it's been a lesson for most all of us ! :smile:


Thanks Bro...I didn't think it would have ended up the way it did. "True Colors" as they say :smile:

Someone post that kitty cat give peace a chance "YouTube" video again!!! 

I'm just so disappointed with the majority in this thread...maybe I am naive...but I much rather think that my fellow humans mean well  This was just an isolated incident for me...for the rest...seems like common practice.


----------



## nitehawk55

NIK0 said:


> Thanks Bro...I didn't think it would have ended up the way it did. "True Colors" as they say :smile:
> 
> Someone post that kitty cat give peace a chance "YouTube" video again!!!
> 
> I'm just so disappointed with the majority in this thread...maybe I am naive...but I much rather think that my fellow humans mean well  This was just an isolated incident for me...for the rest...seems like common practice.


I wouldn't be too disappointed with some of the members . I think some of them post on here just to hear themselves talk.......kkjuw


----------



## keeperofthegood

TubeStack said:


> Come on boyzz, let's drive this mother to 30 pages, MINIMUM!





NIK0 said:


> kkjuw ya why not, anyone else have something to say that will raise the dead?





kqoct I keep telling ya, its only PAGE 6!


----------



## nitehawk55

Wow!!!......it's magic , Keeper made all those unnecessary pages of jibberish disappear !! LOL!!

And with that I start page 25......hwopv


----------



## Rick31797

ya hat's off to Niko for taking the heat, not all could handle it the way he did.. You come here for support, and you get trashed.I don't read every post here but this is the first time i have seen this happen.You call it the truth, but it reminds me of a pack of wolf's turning on there own.
I have found in life that, what is a big deal too you , means nothing to somebody else., until it happens to them, i have seen it over and over again.

People cannot seem to put themselves in Niko's shoes.Everybody wants a deal and there is nobody here that would not have bought the Cabt for what Niko offered, it was not that far off the asking price.The excitement of buying something you have been looking for,and a great price and then the let down.
yes life issues, can be minimal or it can be life changing, i have had both.


Rick


----------



## poolboy

Bravo for you NIKO Sorry you got trashed for venting.... I to would feel the same way... One of my pet peeves with forums is the nagative responce.. Like mom use to say ( if you don't have anything good to say then shut the ........... up!!! ) thumbs up to rick31797.


----------



## bagpipe

poolboy said:


> One of my pet peeves with forums is the nagative responce.. Like mom use to say ( if you don't have anything good to say then shut the ........... up!!! ) thumbs up to rick31797.


I'm not so sure about that. This is a discussion forum. If you post on a subject which is near and dear to everyones heart (buying and selling music gear) you're going to get lots of opinions. You have to accept that you may get opposing views to yours. If you can't accept that (Niko, the OP, seems to have accepted this) then maybe discussion forums aren't for you?

Personal attacks on someones opinions are a different matter, but I don't recall any of those in this thread.


----------



## keeperofthegood

there are two positions that have been taken, and I think everyone agrees on these two positions:

a) Sold: Pending payment
b) Tentativly Sold: First to arrive with the funds dependent.

And what Niko I believe posted was his feeling he was dealing with a) only to find out that he was dealing with b) when it was too late. I think that does warrant an honest expression of "damn ".

I also think both a) and b) are valid ways to do business. 

However, people have had too often an experience of a person not honouring the a) position and then losing out as either buyers or sellers, so they work by the b) position. Part of the negative response comes I think from people that simply chose no longer to believe in the a) position at all because of too many disappointments over their lifetimes and feel that Niko should believe as they do that the a) position is just a figmentary thing and to treat all deals from the b) position point of view. This is where the feeling of 'negative responses' arises from. However, when you think how they may view the situation, it becomes understandable, and I think if everyone sat down with either their beers or virgin drinks (I like Virgin Caesars, no booze plz) that over a good vegan and steak dinner and quietly talked out (as quiet as this bunch ever gets LOL) that everyone would realize no one was really saying things too different after all.

Ultimately all issues can be simply avoided by stating, from the start, your position you are taking from the get-go. If you are selling from the a) position, you simply do not sell it to someone else that happens along. If you are selling from the b) position yea go for it, money comes take it. In either case, being clear will let the potential buyers know what their position is, if they have to "cut school" or "take a sick day" to hurry and pick something up, or if they can tell the boss that "hey, paydays Friday, I have to go pick up something at noon, can I have an extra hour, I will make it up at the end of the shift?" Being clear in what you want as a seller saves a lot of grief on behalf of the buyer, and visa versa 

OH wait ... I was supposed to post another video 

 sorry folks, not finding a video of kittens singing Give Peace a Chance, but I did find this that is about as cute!

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAtnywAsmyE]PAtnywAsmyE[/youtube]


----------



## guitarman2

NIK0 said:


> Thanks to those who sided with me and expressed my deal was facked.



And this really was your agenda with this thread. You wanted people to side with you plain and simple. And those who didn't respond to you in the way you would have like, you got perturbed, despite your claims of being open minded.
You could have stopped responding to this thread long ago and it would have died much sooner. But you chose to respond defensively to every single point made. Even though most of those points (especially from me) were made "tongue in cheek".


----------



## guitarman2

Rick31797 said:


> yes life issues, can be minimal or it can be life changing, i have had both.
> 
> 
> Rick


Anyone who thinks this is a life changing incident I would expect to be the type of person to be traumatized when presented with opinions that don't agree with theirs. I would suggest therapy.


----------



## guitarman2

NIK0 said:


> I don't know how to reply to your comment but I have noted your emotional outpours Terry and I don't think it is as simple as you just put it. But here are your comments/posts most relevant to this subject in chrono order.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point in all this you ask?
> 
> I thought "how" better to prove my point in the way we generally trust strangers..._important to understand that I give everyone the benefit of the doubt and if you read this entire thread you will know what I experienced was my first bad experience....I have learned from it. _
> 
> However...the majority came back and gave me flack for being naive, yada...yada...yada.
> 
> *Real life scenario:*
> 
> So Terry (guitarman2) makes arrangements with a "total stranger" via Kijiji who resides in London, ON. In this entire thread, his posts reflect emotions along the lines of "I don't really care about the outcome of my transactions"...and if it were to go wrong he expresses "I want the satisfaction of telling them off if the barter failed" as long as he had a 3 minute window to present his compilation of insults and rants!
> 
> I don't think anyone would be driving all the way to London if this was part of their train of thought. I know one thing...he wouldn't drive to London if it wasn't on the basis of faith in our good human nature.
> 
> SO THIS WAS EXACTLY MY POINT THE WHOLE TIME...I JUST BELIEVE THAT PEOPLE ARE GOOD "IN GENERAL" AND PRACTICE GOOD BUSINESS ETHICS. Probably the very basis of why in 5 years this was my first bad experience.
> 
> So I present a real life case study that directly involves Terry!
> 
> So I found the Kijiji ad which is the "tomorrow's" stool purchase that Terry describes and earlier today decided to test the "no one is to be trusted theory" out. (Keep in mind that I never had an intention to pick this up regardless of response from seller...just my own case study). For me it illustrates what I have believed all along in people.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _You could definitely get one new in the store for the amount you're offering. If my buyer doesn't show tomorrow, I'll accept your first offer of $100.
> 
> Best,
> Matt
> 
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Nick xxxxxx <[email protected]> wrote:
> 
> How about if I give you $50 more? My dad is old and doesn’t have much left in him. Odd but he always wanted this stool particular stool. Could you do that for me?
> Nicholas xxxxxxxxxxx
> ________________________________________
> From: Matthew Poehlman [mailto:[email protected]]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 4:46 PM
> To: Nick xxxxxxxx
> Subject: Re: Reply to your "Fender Musical Instruments Bar Stool Stratocaster Telecaster" Ad on Kijiji
> 
> Unfortunately, I have a gentleman coming to pick up the stool tomorrow. He's from Brantford, so he may not show up. If the deal falls through, I'll be happy to sell it to you. I'll let you know tomorrow night whether he comes or not.
> 
> Best Regards,
> Matt
> On Wed, Nov 25, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Kijiji Reply (from [email protected]) <[email protected]> wrote:
> Hello! The following is a reply to your "Fender Musical Instruments Bar Stool Stratocaster Telecaster" Ad on Kijiji:
> From: [email protected]
> 
> It would mean a lot to my dad to have this and I want to present it to him on Christmas. If you have someone else I will give you $25 on top of your asking price.
> 
> Please call xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx if you can pull this off for me  _
> 
> http://london.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-s...ol-Stratocaster-Telecaster-W0QQAdIdZ163308565
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I made this guy two offers, offering more than he was asking and both times he refused. In my mind it represents the vast majority of CL and Kijiji sellers.
> 
> My take away? I was unlucky with dealing with a guy who did not possess integrity or business ethic. I still believe that 99% of sellers out there are honest with the sale and honor some sort of system that encompasses integrity and just being plain old school with their fellow peers in this B&S community.
> 
> ENJOY YOUR STOOL!!!
> 
> I don't care what anyone says but people in general have good intentions, we all encounter the odd flake.
> 
> 
> Cheers to all!!! Be good and be cool!


You actually contacted the guy to try and out bid me to prove a point? Does this one guy widely enough represent the community of Kiijjjii and CL?
I don't disagree that the majority of deals on the internet are going to be a good experience. If it were 1 in every 100 that were I'd say that would be reasonable. But accept the fact that there is a lot of undesirables out there and move on.


----------



## Guest

Wow! I kind of glazed over that post from NIK0 -- I didn't realize that the email conversation was for the Fender stool you were after guitarman2!

NIK0: kudos man. That was one hell of an experiment. :smile:


----------



## 4345567

iaresee said:


> NIK0: kudos man. That was one hell of an experiment. :smile:


Kinda weird, but pretty funny.


----------



## Metal#J#

guitarman2 said:


> And this really was your agenda with this thread. You wanted people to side with you plain and simple. And those who didn't respond to you in the way you would have like, you got perturbed, despite your claims of being open minded.
> You could have stopped responding to this thread long ago and it would have died much sooner. But you chose to respond defensively to every single point made. Even though most of those points (especially from me) were made "tongue in cheek".


Can you stop responding?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

She has pretty well been beaten to death I would say


----------



## Guest

nkjanssen said:


> Kinda weird, but pretty funny.


And I know he's got a contract now if guitarman2 bails on the stool. :smile:


----------



## Rick31797

Thats a problem also, people can't read, no where in this thread i said this topic was a life changing issue.
I find people can dwell on negativity , it"s all around us,it doesn't take much for people to sound off.

I am not sure what forum i seen this in, but it was about a guy thinking about selling a Guitar but wasn't sure. he called the thread " A feeler "
Well that didn't go over well at all.. One comment was, either sell it or don't. Another person says why are you wasting my time, it was all pretty crude, as i seen nothing wrong with it at all.. i could see myself doing that, because i have a hard time selling.

Rick


----------



## Starbuck

Ya you did, right here. not in that kind of context, but nonetheless.



Rick31797 said:


> The excitement of buying something you have been looking for,and a great price and then the let down.
> yes life issues, can be minimal or it can be life changing, i have had both.
> Rick


You know I get what Niko is saying. You end up dissapointed in folks as not everyone has the same, ethics, integrity, values, ect. So you come here, make a post cause you're wondering.."Is it me? _should_ I be dissapointed"? Then all this crap blows up cause EVERYONE has an opinion on the subject. It's been entertaining.


----------



## NIK0

guitarman2 said:


> And this really was your agenda with this thread. You wanted people to side with you plain and simple. And those who didn't respond to you in the way you would have like, you got perturbed, despite your claims of being open minded.
> You could have stopped responding to this thread long ago and it would have died much sooner. But you chose to respond defensively to every single point made. Even though most of those points (especially from me) were made "tongue in cheek".


It wasn't my hidden agenda Terry...I sided with everyone here. Everyone made totally valid points. I understand the reality that there will be the odd flake. 

I still believe that 99% of people who I will deal with are honest and that was my only point I was trying to express and share my dissapointment in the one human being a tthe start. That's all dude...

I see you side to Terry


----------



## NIK0

Anyways poeple...we are all GC friends here. Can we close the book? 

We agree to disagree :wave:


----------



## nitehawk55

NIK0 said:


> Anyways poeple...we are all GC friends here. Can we close the book?



Been trying to close the book NIKO , some of your friends don't want to STFU though !  9kkhhd


----------



## NIK0

nitehawk55 said:


> Been trying to close the book NIKO , some of your friends don't want to STFU though !  9kkhhd



LOL...well that comment might find a way to come back and hurt ya on PAAAGGE Twenty SEVEN!!!! :smile:


----------



## nitehawk55

NIK0 said:


> LOL...well that comment might find a way to come back and hurt ya on PAAAGGE Twenty SEVEN!!!! :smile:



Bwahahahahahaha!!!......hence the little guy stirring the pot !! 9kkhhd Bwahahahahahaha!!!!!!


----------



## Fader

"Order in the courtroom! Monkey wants to speak! Speak monkey speak!"


----------



## greco

OK ...so..... just for fun...lets go back over this thread again.

NIKO saw an ad in CL...right? 

He thought it was a good deal and called the seller..right?


.......9kkhhd


----------



## Rick31797

I declare this post too be the last one, any post after this, the poster will be cursed, and not be able too tune any guitar they play for one year hereafter.If you cannot resist the urge too post , only Niko can release the curse.


Note, the curse may or may not be activated when on stage.

Rick


----------



## guitarman2

Well thats just great. I'm already having enough tuning problems. 
Anyway I'm off to London now.


----------



## NIK0

guitarman2 said:


> Well thats just great. I'm already having enough tuning problems.
> Anyway I'm off to London now.


:smile: Say hi to Matt for me :smile: _just kidding bro...we were both good sports in this thread!_


*Cheers Terry!*


----------



## NIK0

I don't know if I should feel bad or good about the fact that this thread beat out the "Michael Jackson Dead" thread in both posts and views...and in a shorter period of time...5 days!

This was an interesting experience...


*R.I.P. Mickey!*


----------



## TubeStack

iaresee said:


> Wow! I kind of glazed over that post from NIK0 -- I didn't realize that the email conversation was for the Fender stool you were after guitarman2!
> 
> NIK0: kudos man. That was one hell of an experiment. :smile:


LOL! I completely scanned over/didn't really read it.

That's kind of psycho... but funny, too.


----------



## TubeStack

Come on boyzz, 30+ pgs here we come!


----------



## NIK0

TubeStack said:


> LOL! I completely scanned over/didn't really read it.
> 
> That's kind of psycho... but funny, too.


Common TubeStack! I just tried to prove my point. It took less than 5 minutes of my time which I was pleasantly surprised with the outcome. I think Terry appreciates it in "some ways"...

After reading Terry's comments I felt I needed to come back with something equal to his comments against me. 

If this is your way of trying to get a rise out of me...well try again  It would be cool to get this going to the 30th page though..or as keeperofthegood describes, 6 pages!

However, your opinion is relative to how you define a psycho so it's all good


----------



## mimig

Hes a jerk for forfeiting on the agreed deal,but you cant count on anybody to do the right thing.... on the other side of the coin I have waited for buyers to come buy a piece of gear that I agreed to sell at a certain price and the idiot never showed up, its not fair to me and the other people that I had told the item was sold. Its only sold when money is transfered.


----------



## guitarman2

Well I got my Fender stool and its great. Gonna love playing my Martin or Nocaster on this. Matt was a good guy. And I guess since he didn't take up the offer for more money when he had already sold it to me, I know he's a stand up guy unlike the seller Niko experienced. And I think I just drove this thread in to the 28th page.


----------



## NIK0

mimig said:


> Hes a jerk for forfeiting on the agreed deal,but you cant count on anybody to do the right thing.... on the other side of the coin I have waited for buyers to come buy a piece of gear that I agreed to sell at a certain price and the idiot never showed up, its not fair to me and the other people that I had told the item was sold. Its only sold when money is transfered.


Agreed buddy and from what I see in this thread...it does occur and has happened to most of you...but I wouldn't call it common!

My only point is give every new buyer/seller the benfit of the doubt. I had that happened to me just today on a Butler Tube Driver. Guy was like "see you thursday" but something came up today. In my case I had a second buyer so it was cool...but if I didn't...what can you do. In 100 transactions I think my ratio is 1/100...99% is pretty darn good! Anyhoo...gonna grab my daughter and head out to meet the second guy as we speak.


----------



## NIK0

guitarman2 said:


> Well I got my Fender stool and its great. Gonna love playing my Martin or Nocaster on this. Matt was a good guy. And I guess since he didn't take up the offer for more money when he had already sold it to me, I know he's a stand up guy unlike the seller Niko experienced. And I think I just drove this thread in to the 28th page.


High Five Bro! :smile: My fictitious dad will be disappointed :smile:


----------



## keeperofthegood

NIK0 said:


> Common TubeStack! I just tried to prove my point. It took less than 5 minutes of my time which I was pleasantly surprised with the outcome. I think Terry appreciates it in "some ways"...
> 
> After reading Terry's comments I felt I needed to come back with something equal to his comments against me.
> 
> *If this is your way of trying to get a rise out of me...well try again  * It would be cool to get this going to the 30th page though..or as keeperofthegood describes, 6 pages!
> 
> However, your opinion is relative to how you define a psycho so it's all good


kqoct













:bow: she usually works for me :bow:


----------



## torndownunit

almost up to 30 pages.

An update, I actually just had a similar experience yesterday lol. I was going to go pick up a Kijiji item this morning (guitar). I was going to meet the guy halfway. I couldn't get away last night because of work, or I would have. He emailed late last night, well after we made our meet plans, and a guy offered him more money and local pickup so he took the offer. Now that I have had practically the same experience lol, I can honestly say I don't feel 'burned'. If I had found a way to get there last night, I would have had the item and for a heck of a deal. I put the blame on myself.

I dunno, I think the only real lesson in all of it is that you gotta let stuff slide sometimes. I am disappointed, but it's never something I could get really upset over.


----------



## Rick31797

I see alot of guitars are not going to be sounding very good.. oh well carry onward.
Rick


----------



## NIK0

An old man goes to the Wizard to ask him if he can remove a "Curse" he has been living with for the last 40 years.

The Wizard says "maybe, but you will have to tell me the exact words that were used to put the curse on you."

The old man says without hesitation "I now pronounce you man and wife".


----------



## Ship of fools

*So to a void the curse*

:sport-smiley-002: I am not going to say if I agree of disagree, except to say that my tuning is still fine and that I want to thank you all for being such a lovely audience that I'd like to take you home with us I'd like to start the show.
Now where were we, oh yeah something abouth this guy buying from that guy and then it didn't work out for that guy buying form this guy who has something he wanted to sell to somebody he didn't know who wanted to buy something form that guy who wanted to sell something to that other guy who din't know about the other guy, whoooo dang how am I doing, do I have it right yet..................9kkhhd just thought I would throw that in for the guy who was buying form the other guy who was selling something that I don't remember the guy was buying form the guy selling, dang I think I just cursed myself for having to wait for the guy buying to say something to the guy selling something to the guy buying something or other.
Please do let me know if I missed something in the conversation that the OP was saying or selling or buying or maybe he was trading, now I am truly confused kksjur so good-night Irene and who ever else is out there.Ship
I wonder if they caught the pun


----------



## keeperofthegood

Ship of fools said:


> :sport-smiley-002: I am not going to say if I agree of disagree, except to say that my tuning is still fine and that I want to thank you all for being such a lovely audience that I'd like to take you home with us I'd like to start the show.
> Now where were we, oh yeah something abouth this guy buying from that guy and then it didn't work out for that guy buying form this guy who has something *he wanted to sell to somebody he didn't know who wanted to buy something form that guy who wanted to sell something to that other guy who din't know* about the other guy, whoooo dang how am I doing, do I have it right yet..................9kkhhd just thought I would throw that in for the guy who was buying form the other guy who was selling something that I don't remember the guy was buying form the guy selling, dang I think I just cursed myself for having to wait for the guy buying to say something to the guy selling something to the guy buying something or other.
> Please do let me know if I missed something in the conversation that the OP was saying or selling or buying or maybe he was trading, now I am truly confused kksjur so good-night Irene and who ever else is out there.Ship
> I wonder if they caught the pun


@[email protected] I read that line 6 times

*he wanted to sell to somebody he didn't know who wanted to buy something form that guy who wanted to sell something to that other guy who din't know** he wanted to sell to somebody he didn't know who wanted to buy something form that guy who wanted to sell something to that other guy who din't know **he wanted to sell to somebody he didn't know who wanted to buy something form that guy who wanted to sell something to that other guy who din't know** he wanted to sell to somebody he didn't know who wanted to buy something form that guy who wanted to sell something to that other guy who din't know **he wanted to sell to somebody he didn't know who wanted to buy something form that guy who wanted to sell something to that other guy who din't know** he wanted to sell to somebody he didn't know who wanted to buy something form that guy who wanted to sell something to that other guy who din't know

:bow: wow, power curse FTW!
*


----------



## nitehawk55

NIK0 said:


> An old man goes to the Wizard to ask him if he can remove a "Curse" he has been living with for the last 40 years.
> 
> The Wizard says "maybe, but you will have to tell me the exact words that were used to put the curse on you."
> 
> The old man says without hesitation "I now pronounce you man and wife".


Hahahaha!!!......good one !!

BTW , my Beneteau OM needed some tuning yesterday . Not sure if that's the curse or the change in the weather .

Ship...Keep....I'm totally confused......


----------



## Ship of fools

*Dang*

I think I just had a pyshcodelic flash back to the sixties man, because I actually understood what you were saying keeperofthegood, time for some King Crimson now.Ship


----------



## Rick31797

I need a bad deal too go through so i can get a thread to go this far, too feel more popular..
My posts are lucky to get 4 replies.. negative rules..
Rick


----------



## NIK0

Rick31797 said:


> I need a bad deal too go through so i can get a thread to go this far, too feel more popular..
> My posts are lucky to get 4 replies.. negative rules..
> Rick


Heh...  Kind of true


----------



## guitarman2

I wonder if this thread will make it to 30


----------



## Starbuck

I'm sure if you keep it up it will.. 9kkhhd kidding, kidding


----------



## NIK0

I have been conteplating jether or not to close this thread but 30 pages is a nice even number


----------



## guitarman2

NIK0 said:


> I have been conteplating jether or not to close this thread but 30 pages is a nice even number


These short little posts aint gonna do it
-
-
-
-
-


----------



## guitarman2

Sooo... Without further adue
-
-
-
-
-
-:rockon2:
:rockon2:
:rockon2:
:rockon2:


----------



## nitehawk55

Hey Terry , hope that Fender stool doesn't bite you in the a$$ kkjuw


----------



## nitehawk55

Ship of fools said:


> I think I just had a pyshcodelic flash back to the sixties man, because I actually understood what you were saying keeperofthegood, time for some King Crimson now.Ship


Great taste Ship....King Crimson :rockon2:


----------



## nitehawk55

NIK0 said:


> I have been conteplating jether or not to close this thread but 30 pages is a nice even number


You leave it going Niko , you started this mess it's too damn late to stop it now !!! kkjuw....30 PAGES...lets RAWK !!!!


----------



## guitarman2

nitehawk55 said:


> Great taste Ship....King Crimson :rockon2:


Ah King Crimson. That brings back memories of the days. Half of which I can't remember.


----------



## keeperofthegood

kqoct Ok they were before my time.

SO, I went looking for some King Crimson

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76eoyyem2K8]76eoyyem2K8[/youtube]


 actually they remind me of Talking Heads!! ONLY I have no idea what song from them that may be so here is just one that was!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_Exc8MK19w
[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_Exc8MK19w]F_Exc8MK19w[/youtube]


----------



## guitarman2

"In the Court of the Crimson King" is my favorite album by them.
"Larks Tongue in Aspic" was the first album I ever heard and I really liked it as well.


----------



## keeperofthegood

guitarman2 said:


> "In the Court of the Crimson King" is my favorite album by them.
> "Larks Tongue in Aspic" was the first album I ever heard and I really liked it as well.




Yes. The Court one I know, we studied it in grade 10 English class, I think it was subjective poetic alliterations or something like that. The building of disparate imagery in verse. @[email protected] fark me, I just recalled all that too @[email protected] and I think the butterfly effect poem was done at that same time too, the one about the horse that for want of a nail, threw a shoe...

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbOWK0vb4yg]WbOWK0vb4yg[/youtube]


----------



## Fader

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHOxC3Xvb2U&feature=related
Fripp is amazing.


----------



## shoretyus

David was going to sell me that guitar on Craigslist but he got more money from somebody else. That's why call him.. 


*David Byrnes* 


Ta-dump :banana::thanks5qx:


----------



## Rick31797

What was this post about, i forget..
Rick


----------



## NIK0

That's funny because I really don't recall other than it was quite the interesting thread and although words were exchanged...we are all still cool with each other. It seemed to be a passionate subject throughout but we made it! This thread has truly taken a life of its own and has become a place to post YouTube videos. 

I'm just waiting for a thrid party to jump in and say..."hey I just made a deal with some stranger and they backed out and screwed me over!" LOL evilGuitar:

Here we go again....naaaaahhh! :smile:


----------



## bagpipe

Ohhh! In with #300! on whatever ... blah blah blah!


----------



## six-string

keeperofthegood said:


> kqoct Ok they were before my time.
> 
> SO, I went looking for some King Crimson
> 
> actually they remind me of Talking Heads!! ONLY I have no idea what song from them that may be so here is just one that was!
> 
> 
> well of course that reminds you of Talking Heads,
> because the same guitarist Adrian Belew played with both bands.
> played with the Heads on the Remain In Light tour and then later with KC.
> Belew also toured with Bowie in the late 70's on the Heroes tour.
> a very talented and distinctive musician.
> 
> i once offered to sell him a guitar but then changed my mind......:smile:


----------



## keeperofthegood

six-string said:


> keeperofthegood said:
> 
> 
> 
> kqoct Ok they were before my time.
> 
> SO, I went looking for some King Crimson
> 
> actually they remind me of Talking Heads!! ONLY I have no idea what song from them that may be so here is just one that was!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well of course that reminds you of Talking Heads,
> because the same guitarist Adrian Belew played with both bands.
> played with the Heads on the Remain In Light tour and then later with KC.
> Belew also toured with Bowie in the late 70's on the Heroes tour.
> a very talented and distinctive musician.
> 
> i once offered to sell him a guitar but then changed my mind......:smile:
Click to expand...


*Adrian Belew*


Whoa that is so totally cool :rockon2:

:S I am so bad with names, even spelling my own kids names is a terror for me :S


Ok, so, when do we get the bumper sticker:


Be kind to people that under sell,
start a thread today!
​


----------



## Budda

you guys really need to set it to 30 replies a page, not 15 haha.


----------



## bass205

Anybody ever have trouble with buyandsell.com?

I've had bogus responses like "I'll get my agent to pick it up" and stuff that sounds like it wasn't even typed by a person.


----------



## Big_Daddy

bass205 said:


> I've had bogus responses like "I'll get my agent to pick it up" and stuff that sounds like it wasn't even typed by a person.


Anyone who does that has no integrity. <nudge, nudge, wink, wink> :smile:



Seriously, tho, that is a known scam.


----------



## NIK0

Ok...well I'm putting this one to rest. Just want to thank everyone for their input on this, it was FUN!

Will remove this thread tonight...any final thoughts?


----------



## Guest

NIK0 said:


> Will remove this thread tonight...any final thoughts?


But one: you can't delete threads on GC.


kkjuw


----------



## keeperofthegood

NIK0 said:


> Ok...well I'm putting this one to rest. Just want to thank everyone for their input on this, it was FUN!
> 
> Will remove this thread tonight...any final thoughts?





iaresee said:


> But one: you can't delete threads on GC.
> 
> 
> kkjuw



9kkhhd This thread is filled with the blending of magicsauce and awesomesauce making it made of win!

:rockon2: Keep it I say, it is an education and it may change how we collectively present ourselves for business!


----------



## NIK0

keeperofthegood said:


> 9kkhhd This thread is filled with the blending of magicsauce and awesomesauce making it made of win!
> 
> :rockon2: Keep it I say, it is an education and it may change how we collectively present ourselves for business!


Oops :smile: Didn't realize I couldn't delete the thread.

Keeperofthegood, I agree, this thread does have a lot of educational value


----------



## guitarman2

NIK0 said:


> Oops :smile: Didn't realize I couldn't delete the thread.
> 
> Keeperofthegood, I agree, this thread does have a lot of educational value


I thought someone told the OP that if you deleted the first post it got rid of the thread.
But I do agree with keeping it.


----------



## keeperofthegood

guitarman2 said:


> I thought someone told the OP that if you deleted the first post it got rid of the thread.
> But I do agree with keeping it.



I am 90% sure about 18 months ago there was a member that went on a deletion spree that sparked a thread as long as this (or longer) and resulted in Scott disabling the ability to delete threads from that event.

kqoct though, 10%, I could be wrong!!


----------



## NIK0

I just read an article that describes a Cragislist deal gone wrong where it actually resulted in someone getting shot *gulp*

I heard on the radio today that a North York man has been missing for a couple of weeks now after meeting with someone to pick up a speaker cabinet. Hasn't been seen since? *kidding*

Maybe my deal going sour was a blessing...hehe

Only in America!!!

:smilie_flagge17:


----------



## NIK0

*I just read an article that describes a Cragislist deal gone wrong where it actually resulted in someone getting shot *gulp* The guy make arrangements to meet with another guy selling a digital camera. He show up to buy it and get shot and mugged.*

I heard on the radio today that a North York man has been missing for a couple of weeks now after meeting with someone to pick up a speaker cabinet. Hasn't been seen since? *kidding*

Maybe my deal going sour was a blessing...hehe

Only in America!!!

:smilie_flagge17:


----------



## Rick31797

I thought the guy sent you the speakers, with help from the cops.
Rick


----------



## NIK0

Rick31797 said:


> I thought the guy sent you the speakers, with help from the cops.
> Rick


LoL....wHaT??? Actually I just thought of a new business. 

"Do you Buy & Sell regularly? Use Craigslist? Concerned about meeting strangers? Feel that you might be lured into a trap? Well fear no more! Craigslist Security Services is THE solution. We will ensure a safe transaction...everytime!!! Give us a call...1 800 RIPP OFF!"


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Shit, this thing made it to the top 5 threads list?


----------



## NIK0

GuitarsCanada said:


> Shit, this thing made it to the top 5 threads list?


LoL...ya it did buddy


----------



## NIK0

Would this be a record however for the short period of time it made it to Top 5?


----------



## keeperofthegood

GuitarsCanada said:


> Shit, this thing made it to the top 5 threads list?



This thread is some powerful MOJO, got lots of blood pumpin and juice flowin and in the end, we all probably had a beer and a laugh kkjuw now that cannot be bought for ducks and lemonade!


----------



## NIK0

I'm totally happy with the way this thread grew in that it allowed everyone who read this thread to express their opinions on the subject. It was very black and white as far as opinions were concerned!

Lesson learned!!!

I hope that all my fellow GCers are stand up guys/gals


----------



## NIK0

Gray said:


> Ive dealt with so much of this bull over Kijiji its ridiculous but this stuff happens all the time. It sucks that a good deal got away but one lesson that I can say I have learned is that you can't be greedy. Im not saying that you were but sometimes you gotta give them their asking price if its a smoking deal, (sometimes ive even offered them like 20 bucks more and they go wild because it so rarely happens and they forget about everyone else and just focus on the deal with me) And sometimes you gotta lowball them. Either way this guy was a noob for agreeing and then walking away.


I agree! I can't say that there was a "scrooge" factor on my part as I didn't really know that a used Dr.Z cab would go for the kind of value that the rest of my fellow GCers suggested. Really true...ignorance on my part...value is relative I guess. If the demand is out there then the value can be significantly inflated...no doubt!!!

My only point is that I am disapointed in the fact that the average human should have at the very least respect for their fellow B&Sers...what is wrong with saying "hey man, got another buyer...wanna match the offer?". 

The point in this thread has been made by you all...I can only receive critical remarks for my reaction and hope everyone at this point understands that sympathy towards me is not asked or needed. Gawd, fack it! It was a stupid deal but we go through them "all the time". 

Want to share your experience???...GO FOR IT!!!! 


Have you ever had a bad experience?

SPEAK!!!!!


----------



## Jeff Flowerday

Thread has gone far enough.


----------

