# Tone is in the fingers?



## bluesmostly

I keep hearing this and I think it needs to be clarified. 

If George Benson picked up EVH's guitar rig from VH's first album (I use this example because it is a landmark guitar tone) he would sound like George Benson playing Eddies rig, the tone would be VH1 with the added nuances that come with GB's particular picking style, attack, vibrato, etc. 

Likewise, EVH would sound like himself playing thru GB's rig, but there is nothing about Eddies hands that could coax the 'Eruption' tone out of that rig. 

it freaks me out when a player asks a question about tone (gear) and he gets the good old: "never mind that, tone is in the hands" response. 

There are many factors that go into creating ones sound, the clearly the 'hands' are part of that. Still, I don't know of very many great players who weren't _very _particular about their _*tone*_, ie, the specific gear they use to get their _*sound*_... 

have at er...


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## zontar

Tone is in the fingers, but it's also in the head, the heart, the gear, the strings, the pick (unless fingerpicked), the amp, the effects, etc.

In other words it's in everything from the head & metaphorical heart to the air between the amp/acoustic guitar/ etc & your ears.

But the fingers are a very important part of that tone.
And that's why going out and getting all of Eddie's gear won't make you sound just like Eddie--you'd need his fingers, as well as his brain and his emotions, etc.

I think the guitarist is the most important part of tone, but it's not the only part.


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## Robert1950

Players like Benson, etc., are in a small minority. With average Joes like most of us on this forum, our fingers need a lot of help, time, etc, ad nauseam. Blanket statements like "Tone is in the fingers" ,... man, I could rant about that, but I've got to go to work right now.


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## Accept2

Youve already ranted about it. Tone is in the fingers.........


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## Ship of fools

Tone will always be in the fingers a great example would be David Gilmour ( Pink Floyd ) give him a ukelle and he'll still make it sound like a Gilmour song, its just the way most good and great musicians roll.Ship


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## mhammer

My wife got me a DVD of Hendrix appearing on the Dick Cavett Show. In one of the musical segments, he is playing a Flying V through an Ampeg B-15 Portaflex (likely borrowed from the house band). The sound is undeniably Hendrix.

Think of how many players are packing a Strat and a a 50W marshall. And how many do you know that sound like Jeff Beck?....*other* than Jeff Beck.

I rest my case.

So how *does* tone come from the fingers? Part of it is, of course, the fret hand, and finger vibrato. The other part is picking attack. Remember, all that pedals and amp have to work with is what the player feeds them. And while everything players obsess about with respect to pickups, strings, 250k vs 500k volume pots, bumblebee caps, super-cables, yadda, yadda, yadda can have a tonal impact, what supercedes them all, or allows them to matter, is how the player strikes the string in the first place.


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## Hamstrung

Look at someone like Alex Lifeson. Over the course of his career with Rush he's played just about every type of guitar and amp combo out there and he always sounds like Alex.


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## guitarman2

Of course tone is in the fingers. What I hate is when its made in a moronic blanket statement to someone asking about gear. Its made to imply that gear doesn't matter. Of course gear matters.


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## bluesmostly

zontar said:


> Tone is in the fingers, but it's also in the head, the heart, the gear, the strings, the pick (unless fingerpicked), the amp, the effects, etc.
> 
> In other words it's in everything from the head & metaphorical heart to the air between the amp/acoustic guitar/ etc & your ears.
> 
> But the fingers are a very important part of that tone.
> And that's why going out and getting all of Eddie's gear won't make you sound just like Eddie--you'd need his fingers, as well as his brain and his emotions, etc.
> 
> I think the guitarist is the most important part of tone, but it's not the only part.


well said!


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## bluesmostly

sorry posted twice, see next post


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## bluesmostly

mhammer said:


> My wife got me a DVD of Hendrix appearing on the Dick Cavett Show. In one of the musical segments, he is playing a Flying V through an Ampeg B-15 Portaflex (likely borrowed from the house band). The sound is undeniably Hendrix.
> 
> Think of how many players are packing a Strat and a a 50W marshall. And how many do you know that sound like Jeff Beck?....*other* than Jeff Beck.
> 
> I rest my case.


uh uh, we are talking about 2 different things and that is my point. You might not sound like Beck with his gear but you will have his tone platform, you would just have to learn to play like him. Hendrix and Beck will sound like themselves because of they way they play, but their tone is determined as much by the gear they use as the way they play.

Gilmore is a good example too. On my Axefx there is a 'Time' preset that nails the tone from that song. I actually learned that solo for the fun of it and have to pay close attention to DG's style to get it down and I could nail it after some practice, but you can't tell me he will be able to cop that tone with a Ukele.

yes tone is affected by the 'hands' for sure, but gear matters. And guys Like Lifeson etc will tweak whatever gear they are using to get the sound they like out of it, still you won't see him using a fender twin to get his sound.


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## lbrown1

and then there's players like clapton......his "sound " is recognizable anywhere ....but his go to tone sure has changed a lot over the years


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## dwagar

guitarman2 said:


> Of course tone is in the fingers. What I hate is when its made in a moronic blanket statement to someone asking about gear. Its made to imply that gear doesn't matter. Of course gear matters.


+1.
I hate this too. Your style, how and what you play, etc. are a given, that isn't going to change with gear. The 'tone is in the fingers' statement is foolish IMO when discussing gear.


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## Rugburn

A lot of people expect Jeff Beck to be playing through a Marshall, and that's why he has a bunch up on stage. In the latest GP cover article he explains that he's using a late 50's Champ miked into a PA system. Beck has also used lots of Blackface Fenders on his records. I think some players might be more reliant on effects and gear than others. A lot of the players mentioned are what I would describe as "whole guitarists". Which is to say they often assume all guitar duties all at once. Hendrix, Gilmour, SRV, Beck, Gatton, and Roy Buchanan come to mind as players who can all stand alone on stage because whats presented is not a buch of single notes, but a complete approach that delivers a big sound. There are so many more bands/groups that have shared duties in regards to the overall sound. The sum of all the members is the "signature sound" rather than one stand-out player. I guess we tend to talk about the greats a lot as they are larger than life, but they make up a small component of whole music scene. 

Shawn.


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## Hamstrung

bluesmostly said:


> uh uh, we are talking about 2 different things and that is my point. You might not sound like Beck with his gear but you will have his tone platform, you would just have to learn to play like him. Hendrix and Beck will sound like themselves because of they way they play, but their tone is determined as much by the gear they use as the way they play.
> 
> Gilmore is a good example too. On my Axefx there is a 'Time' preset that nails the tone from that song. I actually learned that solo for the fun of it and have to pay close attention to DG's style to get it down and I could nail it after some practice, but you can't tell me he will be able to cop that tone with a Ukele.
> 
> yes tone is affected by the 'hands' for sure, but gear matters. And guys Like Lifeson etc will tweak whatever gear they are using to get the sound they like out of it, still you won't see him using a fender twin to get his sound.


I don't disagree with you about tone being affected by gear and settings but it's hard to separate the two and achieve a given person's sound. Like you say, if a person can cop the style of a particular player and use their setup they can sound just like them. That's easier for some people than others but marketers want you to think it's all in the gear. 

BTW, aside from this being an interesting article (if your a Lifeson fan and gear head) it shows he in fact did use a Fender Twin at times as well as an enormous amount of various gear throughout his career. 

Alex Lifeson-Musictoyz.com your total online boutique music store from guitar pedals to studio !


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## mhammer

Think of it like poetry. There are many languages that could be used for it. Clearly obliging any poet to attempt poetry in any other language would change the outcome, since the sounds nad lilt of words is different in other languages. But clearly the poet has a unique sensibility about the words available to them in the language they speak.


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## 4345567

__________


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## Robert1950

Accept2 said:


> Youve already ranted about it. Tone is in the fingers.........


It that case the tone in my fingers is like a SS Marshall map and needs help.


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## Robert1950

guitarman2 said:


> Of course tone is in the fingers. *What I hate is when its made in a moronic blanket statement to someone asking about gear.* Its made to imply that gear doesn't matter. Of course gear matters.


I can agree with that.


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## greco

nkjanssen said:


> .....The shortcomings of a Squire/Gorilla setup can easily be overcome by playing great music through it.


This is what we all shoud be aspiring to achieve. 9kkhhd

Dave


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## mhammer

This is a bit of 7-blind-wisemen-and-the-elephant. Maybe it would be helpful if everyone started off the debate with the same notion of what "tone" is. I have little doubt that people would arrive at different conclusions based on listening to Wes Montgomery or Django Reinhardt, than they would listening to Steve Vai or Joe Satriani. There will be contexts where "tone" is inextricably interwoven with gear, and others where "tone" is far more dependent on how fingertip meets fret or string. Then, there will be cases where what we mentally classify as someone's "tone" is really more their phrasing over a string of notes. Could I identify Wes Mongomery's tone from isolated 500msec snippets involving one note at a time? With some degree of confidence, yes. Could I do the same for Vai (although the one-note snippet might have to be shorter). With much much less confidence, although if the snippet were 5sec long, the odds increase dramatically.

There are, of course, the highly idiosyncratic cases, Again, Montgomery and Reinhardt come up, but there are others too. For instance, Zappa often picked over the fingerboard. This not only changed where the harmonics were emphasized, but had an interesting impact on pick attack, if only because when you pick a string over the 20th fret, your pick can only go so far below the string, imparting an interesting delicateness to picking, compared to the rip-the-note attack one would get picking over the bridge pickup. If you ever want to try sounding like Frank, just pick over the fingerboard, and you'll be surprised by how big a role that plays. Now, is that "in the fingers", or is it a simple quarter-twist in technique that changes what the instrument is gonna do? I don't know.


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## starjag

nkjanssen said:


> The shortcomings of a Squire/Gorilla setup can easily be overcome by playing great music through it.


... but great music could have shitty guitar tone, right?


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## Guest

But groove is in the heart...

[video=youtube;C4D1HSL7P98]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4D1HSL7P98[/video]


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## shoretyus

[YOUTUBE]4udHNZnfBYQ[/YOUTUBE]


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## david henman

...years ago i watched a kid - i'm pretty sure he was still in his teens - play a whole bunch of eddie van halen licks on his stratocaster.

to my ears, the kid had it down, and he sounded pretty much exactly like eddie.

he didn't have quite as much sustain as eddie, however.

but this could probably be explained by the fact that his guitar was not plugged into anything.


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## greco

david henman said:


> ......
> he didn't have quite as much sustain as eddie, however.
> 
> but this could probably be explained by the fact that his guitar was not plugged into anything.


I can just tell that this is going to go on to result in being one of the best threads in GC history !

cheers

Dave


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## megadan

I usually hear this in relation to bass players - it's more accurate there because bassists actually do play with their fingers and you can get different tones by using different fingering techniques. I find guitarists don't really understand this subtlety (no offense). 

When used in regards to guitar, I understand it a little differently - I think it means that the tone is in *what you play* - this makes sense with regards to the OP in the post. Same with the Gilmour post. It's *what* he plays that makes a certain sound work.


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## mhammer

Groove may well be in the *heart*, but when you watch Junior and Redd play (and Brad too), tone is clearly in the *hat*. :banana:


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## bluesmostly

megadan said:


> I usually hear this in relation to bass players - it's more accurate there because bassists actually do play with their fingers and you can get different tones by using different fingering techniques. I find guitarists don't really understand this subtlety (no offense).
> 
> When used in regards to guitar, I understand it a little differently - I think it means that the tone is in *what you play* - this makes sense with regards to the OP in the post. Same with the Gilmour post. It's *what* he plays that makes a certain sound work.


I think it is about definitions and distinctions in terms for sure, this is a good distinction Megadan. Tone = what you play thru. Sound = combination of what you play thru and how you play.


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## bluesmostly

david henman said:


> ...years ago i watched a kid - i'm pretty sure he was still in his teens - play a whole bunch of eddie van halen licks on his stratocaster.
> 
> to my ears, the kid had it down, and he sounded pretty much exactly like eddie.
> 
> he didn't have quite as much sustain as eddie, however.
> 
> 
> 
> but this could probably be explained by the fact that his guitar was not plugged into anything.


good one, made me laugh. from a definition perspective I would propose that he 'played' like EVH, and would then have 'sounded' like him if plugged into the right gear...


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## Accept2

Sure gear matters, but not as much as ability. Which is the correct way of doing things?:
1. I am buying this guitar because it feels right. 
2. I am buying this guitar because it has the right tone.

I will always buy on feel, and never plug in because all the aspects of pickups (brands/models/height), amp (infinite settings) and other gear will always be adjusted to how the tone comes out when I take the guitar home. If tone wasnt in the fingers then it would be imperative to buy gear on tone and each piece of gear would cause conflicts of tone with every other piece of gear. Maybe in the synth world tone is different...........


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## bluesmostly

Accept2 said:


> Sure gear matters, but not as much as ability. Which is the correct way of doing things?:
> 1. I am buying this guitar because it feels right.
> 2. I am buying this guitar because it has the right tone.
> 
> I will always buy on feel, and never plug in because all the aspects of pickups (brands/models/height), amp (infinite settings) and other gear will always be adjusted to how the tone comes out when I take the guitar home. If tone wasnt in the fingers then it would be imperative to buy gear on tone and each piece of gear would cause conflicts of tone with every other piece of gear. Maybe in the synth world tone is different...........


I agree that ability matters more than gear for making music, but that is not the issue here, and they are not mutually exclusive in my view. 

not sure I understand how your point relates to the topic or why you wouldn't want to "buy gear on tone" as well as by 'feel', or why each piece would necesarily 'conflict' with every other piece. Different pieces (guitars, amps, effects, etc) are assembled, most often based on tone, by players to achieve a certain sound. 

Perhaps you can give specific examples of what you mean.


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## bluesmostly

I find it interesting that we often site great players to support the argument that 'tone is in the hands' and ' ability is more important than gear' and yet almost every great player I am aware of in any genre is very discriminating about their choices of gear. 

that is why forums like this exists for the most part isn't it? So we can talk about gear and how it affects our 'sound' and that of the players we admire... 

9kkhhd


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## greco

bluesmostly said:


> .......'tone is in the hands' and ' ability is more important than gear' and yet almost every great player I am aware of in any genre is very discriminating about their choices of gear. 9kkhhd


*Maybe* they (i.e. great players) don't believe that their tone is in their fingers 9kkhhd

Cheers

Dave


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## shoretyus

greco said:


> *Maybe* they (i.e. great players) don't believe that their tone is in their fingers 9kkhhd
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


Well the tone maybe in their fingers but the there are at least two tone knobs elsewhere.


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## Ship of fools

bluesmostly;292470 And guys Like Lifeson etc will tweak whatever gear they are using to get the sound they like out of it said:


> But as musicians we all develope our own tone and if you put me on your rig, guess what my friends are going to know that its me playing because of the way I play. They can almost always pick me out on an recordings I have done and I tend to attack my music almost always the same depth and the same consistency so my playing is very audible to those who have heard me play.So maybe I need to do something different no wait I did, stopped playing electric and now only play acoustics, needed something different.Ship


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## Hamstrung

bluesmostly said:


> I find it interesting that we often site great players to support the argument that 'tone is in the hands' and ' ability is more important than gear' and yet almost every great player I am aware of in any genre is very discriminating about their choices of gear.
> 
> 9kkhhd


The above may be true but I've often wondered how many players put out signature models based on designs, tweaks and ideas that came about long after the music they're known for? Most of which was probably written and performed on run of the mill (not necessarily crap) gear. 

A couple that come to mind are: 
EVH, just about everything released today with his name on it bears no resemblance to the gear that made him famous. 
The Jimmy Page model LPs. IIRC, all the wiring mods done to them were done in the 80's long after the legendary sounds he made (many of which were on a Tele). 

How many artists actually promote signature gear that is exact replicas of what made them famous? Of course, in the end there's no reason these guys wouldn't be gear whores like the rest of us and who doesn't want to make an extra buck once in a while especially if the back catalog isn't selling like it used to!


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## starjag

So I guess that for horn players, tone is in the blow!


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## bluesmostly

Ship of fools said:


> But as musicians we all develope our own tone and if you put me on your rig, guess what my friends are going to know that its me playing because of the way I play. They can almost always pick me out on an recordings I have done and I tend to attack my music almost always the same depth and the same consistency so my playing is very audible to those who have heard me play.So maybe I need to do something different no wait I did, stopped playing electric and now only play acoustics, needed something different.Ship


No argument here, and I sound like me no matter what I play on. 

But, I am fussy about my tone and do plenty of stuff to tweak that sound and that has *nothing to do with how I play*. 

Two different things going on here, and that is the point.


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## cheezyridr

where is the tone dr. in this thread? i wonder what he might say?


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## bobb

bluesmostly said:


> I keep hearing this and I think it needs to be clarified.
> 
> If George Benson picked up EVH's guitar rig from VH's first album (I use this example because it is a landmark guitar tone) he would sound like George Benson playing Eddies rig, the tone would be VH1 with the added nuances that come with GB's particular picking style, attack, vibrato, etc.
> 
> Likewise, EVH would sound like himself playing thru GB's rig, but there is nothing about Eddies hands that could coax the 'Eruption' tone out of that rig.


Funny you mention EVH straight off. Ted Nugent used to tell the story about the time he attended a Van Halen soundcheck. Uncle Ted told Eddie how much he loved the EVH sound and asked to try Eddie's setup. Ted Nugent on Eddie's gear and he sounded exactly like...drumroll please...Ted Nugent!!!


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## bluesmostly

bobb said:


> Funny you mention EVH straight off. Ted Nugent used to tell the story about the time he attended a Van Halen soundcheck. Uncle Ted told Eddie how much he loved the EVH sound and asked to try Eddie's setup. Ted Nugent on Eddie's gear and he sounded exactly like...drumroll please...Ted Nugent!!!


right, he sounded like Ted _* playing thru Eddies gear*_ - if you are suggesting that he sounded exactly the same playing thru hs won rig I would doubt that very much... why would Ted be interested in trying Ed's rig if he thought it would sound just like his?


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## GuitarsCanada

bobb said:


> Funny you mention EVH straight off. Ted Nugent used to tell the story about the time he attended a Van Halen soundcheck. Uncle Ted told Eddie how much he loved the EVH sound and asked to try Eddie's setup. Ted Nugent on Eddie's gear and he sounded exactly like...drumroll please...Ted Nugent!!!


I am just going to jump in real quick here and ask a question. When you say "sounded just like Ted Nugent" are we talking "playing style" like when you hear a song by Nugent and you say "yep thats Ted" and same thing with guys like EVH or Zakk Wylde, meaning the little trademark things that they do. Or are you saying the actual "sound" was Ted Nugent? Becuase if we are talking sound I find it hard to beleive that the equipment itself is going to make a different sound based on who is banging away at the strings, other than if the person is doing things like pinch harmonics or that thing that Zakk Wylde does about 40 times every song.

PS: Then again I guess that things like pick attack, even pick thickness have a certain amount to do with the actual output. Possible fretting technique as well.


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## bluesmostly

GuitarsCanada said:


> I am just going to jump in real quick here and ask a question. When you say "sounded just like Ted Nugent" are we talking "playing style" like when you hear a song by Nugent and you say "yep thats Ted" and same thing with guys like EVH or Zakk Wylde, meaning the little trademark things that they do. Or are you saying the actual "sound" was Ted Nugent? Becuase if we are talking sound I find it hard to beleive that the equipment itself is going to make a different sound based on who is banging away at the strings, other than if the person is doing things like pinch harmonics or that thing that Zakk Wylde does about 40 times every song.
> .


indeed, this is the same q that I am asking...


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## bluesmostly

GuitarsCanada said:


> PS: Then again I guess that things like pick attack, even pick thickness have a certain amount to do with the actual output. Possible fretting technique as well.


of course these things affect tone, that has never been in question. will they turn a Fender Twin into a Mesa Dual Recto, not a chance.


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## fraser

a good example is clapton
he sounded completely different in 1970 as opposed to the year before.
same guy, same hands, different guitar and amp.
if we were a bunch of les paul players using high gain amps, discussing which strings to use, then yeah, tone is in the fingers might bear bieng said,
but its not that simple.


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## Mooh

I agree that it's not as simple as "tone is in the fingers". Over the course of a week I hear dozens of players from rank beginners to quite advanced players, acoustic and electric instruments, various styles. From what I see and hear, tone is in the maturity as a player. That includes everything from the brain of the player to the brain of the listener. Some players are very consistent and can present their tone early and well, others are very inconsistent and only occasionally get their tone. Some come by it quite naturally, others work like dogs to barely reach it.

Personally, my tone is in my ability to relax, concentrate, focus, and create, all part of maturity. Whether this is attractive to the listener or not is a matter of taste. 

Music is about pleasure. Without pleasure there is no tone, without tone there is no pleasure.

Peace, Mooh.


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## lbrown1

shoretyus said:


> [YOUTUBE]4udHNZnfBYQ[/YOUTUBE]


I think that guitar just got tone tag-teamed!


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## mhammer

bobb said:


> Funny you mention EVH straight off. Ted Nugent used to tell the story about the time he attended a Van Halen soundcheck. Uncle Ted told Eddie how much he loved the EVH sound and asked to try Eddie's setup. Ted Nugent on Eddie's gear and he sounded exactly like...drumroll please...Ted Nugent!!!


Not only that. Forty years ago, this summer, Ted let me play his blonde Byrdland, and I sounded...coffee-table drumroll please....exactly like ME.:banana:


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## shoretyus

starjag said:


> So I guess that for horn players, tone is in the blow!


Actually it's in the metal.... My sax repair man friend was explaing that to me the other day. How the older horns had different metals. And older cheaper clarinets have better wood then expensive new ones today.


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## bluesmostly

Mooh said:


> I agree that it's not as simple as "tone is in the fingers". Over the course of a week I hear dozens of players from rank beginners to quite advanced players, acoustic and electric instruments, various styles. From what I see and hear, tone is in the maturity as a player. That includes everything from the brain of the player to the brain of the listener. Some players are very consistent and can present their tone early and well, others are very inconsistent and only occasionally get their tone. Some come by it quite naturally, others work like dogs to barely reach it.
> 
> Personally, my tone is in my ability to relax, concentrate, focus, and create, all part of maturity. Whether this is attractive to the listener or not is a matter of taste.
> 
> Music is about pleasure. Without pleasure there is no tone, without tone there is no pleasure.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


I understand exactly what you mean Mooh, I think I would just replace the word 'tone' with 'sound' - a player develops his 'sound' - 'tone' (the gear + plus the way one plays on the strings) is part of that. 

It has become a question of linquistics for me I suppose... 

Fraser's example of Clapton's tone changing over the years fits perfectly, though he still 'sounded' like Clapton.


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## zontar

bluesmostly said:


> Fraser's example of Clapton's tone changing over the years fits perfectly, though he still 'sounded' like Clapton.


Unfortunately I still sound like me...


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