# 1,2,3,4's - you do em?



## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

Just wondering how many of you do chromatic exercises (1,2,3,4 then move to the next string)? 

I used to do these things all the time because I was told they were a good warm up. Honestly I find them completely useless, non-musical and saw little to zero gains from it. It makes no sense to me to play anything regularly that has such little application value.

For a pure beginner - absolutely. They are great, easy to teach and remember. But for an intermediate and above student, running scales, arps, or playing melodies would be WAY more beneficial IMO.

What's your take?


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I see immense gains from practicing chromatic exercises, particularly with beginners. 

It's the very first thing my beginners get just so there is finger exercise. Chromatic scales and exercises (I assign variations) aren't musical in the way that melodies are but they do condition the ear/mind to the memory of semi-tones which is particularly lacking in the bass range of younger students. They also get all fingers moving, for physical conditioning, strengthening, agility, and they help with technique. Sometimes a quick and easy warm-up, a somewhat mindless one at that, is all that's required. They're also handy for those returning from an absence due to a hand injury. Flatpickers should alternate pick them as soon as they're capable.

I include the open strings in the open position just to make it truly chromatic (ie open,1,2,3,4...), and as we move up the fingerboard to higher positions I include either a position shift or 5 notes per string (4 on the third) so that no semitone is missed.

They take so little time to play and there are physical benefits.

From there I immediately go to diatonic scales, melodies, chords, but the chromatic exercises always play a part.

For what it's worth.

Edit: I think I started using them initially when I realized there were issues with pinky (4th finger) use, as a way to get it working. That was a long long time ago.

Peace, Mooh.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

I don't play that much any more, but when I do pick up a guitar I do use this as a warmup and as a finger strength building exercise.


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## ThePass (Aug 10, 2007)

I do these all the time.

Then I skip strings while doing them, bouncing up to the string I missed.

I find them a great way to warm up. 

I work my way up and down the neck that way.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I do them now and again as a warm up. I do the 1-2; 1-3; 1-4 more often.

However, my brother-in-law who is a very good player and switched from Spanish guitar to flamenco about four years ago goes to lessons twice a week and his teacher is a player who has played flamenco all over the world for a living and told him he should do the 1-2-3-4's every day. So, it's probably more important than we think it is.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

nkjanssen said:


> If I did a lot of 1-2-3-4's, I'd probably be able to play faster.
> 
> As it is, I just try to make music.


Nkjanssen, this, then, is for you.

[YOUTUBE]TxETbR_t-no&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

There are lots of variations. Many of my students do 1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 2-3, 2-4, 3-4, 1-3-2-4, and descending or reversed variations. Plus rhythmic variations, especailly swing. Quick, easy to understand, with lots of physical benefits. Whole tone variations are fun too, especially for students bent on experimental stuff.

Peace, Mooh.


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## improvman (Dec 17, 2010)

Good Points Mooh! 

They have valuable applications for beginners. As the player gets better at them, the key would be to focus on rhythmic timing and make sure the notes are played on the beats (whether that'd be quarter notes, 8th notes, 16th notes, etc). As others have stated, variations could also be utilized the further the student progesses. 

As for a warmup for someone who has been playing for a while, the key with warmups is that you want your fingers to get loose. If these exercises help loosen your fingers so you can play with less tension when you get into playing/practicing other stuff, then they are valuable. If not, I would question doing them.


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

I used to do them all the time and found I would only repeat these patterns when I was practicing and gave up on it. Hasn't made a difference to my playing yet.


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## GuyB (May 2, 2008)

Excellent comments above. I do this exercise regularly also for all the good reasons mentionned by Mooh in particular.
Just to add a little difficulty, try doing the 1,2,3,4 going up and down the six strings with an exagerated triplet tempo (very hard stroke on the 1 and very subtle stroke on 2 and 3; after the last string, don't stop and go back in reverse). You get to change the finger that hits the 1 every time. It was hard for me at the beginning, had to go slow and increase speed progressively.


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

Outside of a flat-out beginner I still dont see how these would benefit you any better than working on actual musical phrases. Or running actual usable scale forms for that matter.... If anything I think 1,2,3,4's promote habitual non musical statements. What you practice comes out when you perform, so why spend the time working on something you will basically never use. I guess I can see the argument for a true chromatic scale but this broken version and these kinds of variation things just make no sense to me any more.

I stopped doing them years ago (after years of doing them) and my playing has improved just fine without them... if not at a faster rate. I am just not convinced of their benefits.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

In and of itself, a chromatic scale is somewhat pointless, but so is almost any other musical element in isolation.

Jeremy, maybe by the time you stopped doing them you were already advanced and capable enough not to need them. I was there once too, but various hand injuries, arthritis, and advancing age made me return to more scale work, including chromatic warm-ups. 

Segovia was way more poetic and enlightened than me...

_"The student who wishes to aquire a firm technique on the guitar should not neglect the patient study of scales. If he practices them two hours a day, he will correct faulty hand positions, gradually increase the strength of the fingers, and prepare the joints for later speed studies. Thanks to the independence and elasticity which the fingers develop through the study of scales, the student will soon acquire a quality which is very difficult to gain later: physical beauty of sound. I say physical, because sonority and its infinite shadings are not the result of stubborn will power but spring from the innate excellence of the spirit.
In order to derive the greatest possible benefit from the following exercises, play them slowly and vigorously at first, more lightly and rapidly later. In one hour of scales may be condensed many hours of arduous exercises which are frequently futile. The practice of scales enables one to solve a greater number of technical problems in a shorter time than any study of any other exercise_." 
*-Andres Segovia *

Peace, Mooh.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Is mooh pointed out in another thread it's a great exercise for learning to recognize the subtle differences between the notes. Yes I still do them


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

Maybe Mooh ... But the Segovia quote backs my position "study of scales" is what he refers to. I am NEVER saying dont run scales - I am saying do this as a warm up as opposed to 1,2,3,4's. With all due respect, and it is cool to disagree, I honestly think they are pointless once a player is past the beginner stages. I am just rapping here not arguing cool?

For years I just did these without questioning them... kind of an eat your vegetables type thing. But in the past several years I have begun to question everything - and it has helped my playing immensely to do so. I think we should question the logic of non-musical drills on a musical instrument. Sure they are cultural to the guitar, sure many advanced players endorse them, we have all been shown them. But dont they seem kind of dumb?

This you could make a legit argument for:

---------------------------------------------------1-2-3-4-----------------
-----------------------------------------2-3-4-5------------------------
-------------------------------2-3-4-5-------------------------------------
---------------------3-4-5-6-----------------------------------------------
-----------4-5-6-7---------------------------------------------------------
-5-6-7-8-------------------------------------------------------------------

makes far more sense than this:

---------------------------------------------------1-2-3-4------------------------
-----------------------------------------1-2-3-4---------------------------
-------------------------------1-2-3-4-------------------------------------
---------------------1-2-3-4-----------------------------------------------
-----------1-2-3-4---------------------------------------------------------
-1-2-3-4-------------------------------------------------------------------


The discussion isn't one of doing or not doing drills - it is one of "why" are we doing certain exercises. What gains are in 1,2,3,4's that are NOT found in licks and scales? After a bit of time you should be able to easily, mindlessly run a major scale - it uses all fingers.... How is doing this not as good as 1,2,3,4's to a non-beginner? Many solos and etudes have the same advantages .... wouldn't you be better served to memorize and etude and use that as a warm-up?

From Wikipedia
Practicing: a method of learning by repetition

So I ask what exactly are you 'learning' from the second example? What you ARE learning is to 'play without thought'. You are also learning 'pattern type thinking'. You are also learning a phrase you WON'T use in actual performance ... These are ALL very bad things IMO.

I know it seems odd for me to get all up in arms about a simple exercise. But I am as of yet to hear a compelling reason why these are so good they warrant regular use. Other than "awesome player X said to do them" To be 100% clear - for a raw beginner who knows nothing and has a hard time remembering these are great. Their simplicity to remember is the only tangible advantage I can identify. But to a player with a scale or etude memorized I dont see the advantage over those forms.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

No argument here, I don't think we disagree very much.

To me, it's still a scale, chromatic as opposed to diatonic, pentatonic, etc. As such, it is still addressing the physical facility (as in ease of movement) that Segovia mentions, and that I addressed in previous posts. As I said before, it's not of much value in isolation, but as a step towards other scales and the physicality of playing them it is invaluable.

Case(s) in point: Over the years I've had many students come to me with a well practiced 3 finger fretting hand single note technique and almost no ability with the pinky, sometimes not even with chords. Similarly, I've seen many others who were so ensconced in pentatonics that they limited themselves to 2 fingers. The way out of these limitations started with the therapeutic practice of chromatic variations, followed by diatonic scales. It's my observation that students who embrace the systematic practice of scales, starting with the chromatic ones, progress faster than those who don't. (It is also my observation that when combined with theory studies they progress even faster.) Scale knowledge assists in chord knowledge too, so it's all cumulative and transferable knowledge.

Likewise, when a student walks in with no fretting hand facility, we immediately work on that through scale studies (starting with the chromatic) combined with melodic studies. 

Why start with the chromatic scale instead of some other? It's the easiest for a student to remember before they are able to read music. It gets *all* the fingers moving, exercised, and prepared for when they are needed musically, even if the musical need isn't immediate. When combined with note names (said or sung) it reinforces the order of semitones, the function of sharps and flats, and note locations by name on the fretboard. The pinky gets a workout. When used in variations (like the ones I mentioned earlier) every physical combination is used and used often, shortening the warm-up period. From there other scales should be played. I prefer to warm up before playing scales, as scales are musical, whereas stretching exercises are not, and chromatic variations are musically non-sensical. The problem for many is they stop at chromatic exercises and don't proceed to other scales. 

My music background was in piano and vocal, where the ability to play or sing any note anytime was impressed upon me. I don't see guitar as much different. Is this only path to enlightenment? No, but it worked for me personally, and for literally hundreds of my own students, so I continue thus.

Peace, Mooh.


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

Mooh, I completely hear and concur with your observations. Again not arguing here just discussing. I completely respect your experience and position.

I guess my issue is that 1,2,3,4's are not a chromatic scale - there are notes missing: 

1 (F) 2 (F#) 3 (G) 4 (G#)
1 (A#) 2 (B) 3 (C) 4 (C#)
1 (D#) etc......

No A or D notes here. This scale has odd whole tone leaps every 4th note.

Like I said I have zero issue whatsoever with the concept of working on a true chromatic scale. The issue is with *non-beginners* working on something often that promotes non-musical actions. Many people promote these or variations (1,2,3,4 - 1,4,2,3 - 1,2,4,3 etc) - I promoted this for many years as well. It SEEMED like the right thing to do ... I am just not certain it was. I mean yes, it did help - but could scales and etudes helped more? Looking back, I think they (proper scales and etudes) would be better.

To not bore you too much with my personal details, but it is kind of important to understand my stance, so let me say this. 

These days looking back, I divide my years spent playing in 2 parts.
-The years before I learned to listen
-The years after

The first part was 20+ years. I fixated on technique and drills etc. Did pretty well - lots of live experience etc. But in the last 7-8 years something clicked. All of a sudden I stopped mindlessly playing and started treating each note with respect (as if I would run out). I haven't slowed down or use less notes per se... just really listen deeper. I started scrutinizing EVERY SINGLE NOTE - even during drills. I NEVER play anything anymore that doesn't have time, tempo or key - NEVER. Music first, all else a distant second. This has been like an epiphany to me. 

My playing and understanding has gone way beyond those early years. I get more calls for projects, more compliments, despite the fact that I 'play' LESS actual hours. I am faster RPM too shockingly. I always remember, years ago when I was a Steve Morse disciple. He said (paraphrasing) 'someone should be able to walk into the room, at any time you are practicing and feel the groove and hear music' - this single statement did almost NOTHING for me when I first heard it. But now when I read it it speaks to my core. If I had have understood this - really understood this - I think I would be further ahead. It sounded so simple ... too simple. It was almost a throw away. I was so busy listening for him to say mode this and scale/chord that. 

This 'epiphany' is right at the core of my mindset these days. I am not saying I am right or this is for everyone, but it is worthy of discussion before you blindly blast through them or teach others to I think.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

jeremy_green said:


> I guess my issue is that 1,2,3,4's are not a chromatic scale - there are notes missing:
> 
> 
> My playing and understanding has gone way beyond those early years. I get more calls for projects, more compliments, despite the fact that I 'play' LESS actual hours. I am faster RPM too shockingly. I always remember, years ago when I was a Steve Morse disciple. He said (paraphrasing) 'someone should be able to walk into the room, at any time you are practicing and feel the groove and hear music' - .


I agree, and in my first post I mentioned _"I include the open strings in the open position just to make it truly chromatic (ie open,1,2,3,4...), and as we move up the fingerboard to higher positions I include either a position shift or 5 notes per string (4 on the third) so that no semitone is missed."_

Steve Morse is amazing. I also agree with the groove aspect, but groove isn't all pitch, it's also rhythm, and I insist on rhythmic precision before pitch precision. Exercises and scales must be played with rhythm, whether it's straight eighths, swing, or some other rhythm I make up on the spot. (I have a clipboard sized white board for writing things on besides an aural reminder...I almost hear a student thinking "oh crap, here comes the white board" LOL.) I have always believed that if one can combine what one hears, with what one sees and feels, more of the brain is used and more knowledge gained, and more memory secured.

Jeremy and others...Thanks for a thought provoking and habit questioning thread. This is how we prgress, by probing our abilities, assessing our progress, analyzing our methods, and sharing the results.

Peace, Mooh.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

Mooh said:


> I agree, and in my first post I mentioned _"I include the open strings in the open position just to make it truly chromatic (ie open,1,2,3,4...), and as we move up the fingerboard to higher positions I include either a position shift or 5 notes per string (4 on the third) so that no semitone is missed."_
> 
> Steve Morse is amazing. I also agree with the groove aspect, but groove isn't all pitch, it's also rhythm, and I insist on rhythmic precision before pitch precision. Exercises and scales must be played with rhythm, whether it's straight eighths, swing, or some other rhythm I make up on the spot. (I have a clipboard sized white board for writing things on besides an aural reminder...I almost hear a student thinking "oh crap, here comes the white board" LOL.) I have always believed that if one can combine what one hears, with what one sees and feels, more of the brain is used and more knowledge gained, and more memory secured.
> 
> ...


You sounds like a great teacher Mooh! Keep white-boarding their a$$es! Totally agreed. I guess the paramater we are both in full agreement on is whatever the drill - make it musical. I dont think this can be understated.

In case i get tied up with stuff and something gets overlooked. I dont want to miss the opportunity to wish you all the merriest of Christmas' We will likely chat before but like I said things could get nuts! So cheers to you all. Hope Santa treats you and your loved ones well.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

jeremy_green said:


> In case i get tied up with stuff and something gets overlooked. I dont want to miss the opportunity to wish you all the merriest of Christmas' We will likely chat before but like I said things could get nuts! So cheers to you all. Hope Santa treats you and your loved ones well.


Thanks! Same to all of you and yours. I'm going to be off-forum for a few days around Christmas, not so much by necessity as by choice...my kids will be home, and time is at a premium. So, in a couple of days I do a little disappearing act.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a new guitar!

Peace, Mooh.


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