# Cheap noise gate



## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

hi, i would like to know what noise gate would be the best. I like to play in distortion but my amp always make a death feedback (really hurt my ears) and then one of my friend showed me a deluxe big muff fuzz pedal and it had a noise gate on it, the feedback was gone. Unfortunately, i dont have a really big budget, only around 75-100$ So, what do you suggest?


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

Also i would like to add, for me it will be a game changer, with music at schools and big familly reunion, i need to turn the volume up so that the people can hear me but with the, the feedback is louder. Not good for me, not good for the spectator.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2017)

What do you mean by feedback? Noise gates usually get rid of hum when you stop playing.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

MkWolfire said:


> hi, i would like to know what noise gate would be the best. I like to play in distortion but my amp always make a death feedback (really hurt my ears) and then one of my friend showed me a deluxe big muff fuzz pedal and it had a noise gate on it, the feedback was gone. Unfortunately, i dont have a really big budget, only around 75-100$ So, what do you suggest?


You don't need a noisegate per se, you probably need to use less gain.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

$75-100 should get you what you need, easily. When it comes to noise gates, it's not the quality of the pedal, but how you use it. The difficulty with trying to clean up the sins of a high-gain pedal is that the user ends up expecting too much out of the noise gate.

Gates are intended to tell the difference between signal and "noise", based entirely on signal level. It can not tell the difference between what you intend to play, and what gets generated spontaneously by sources of noise around and in the guitar, cables, pedals, etc. So what you need to do is make that task as easy as possible for the gate. 

If you stick the gate after a high-gain pedal, then whatever noise entered that pedal is amplified, and so is any hiss generated inside the pedal, making the difference between signal and noise smaller. So, what many smarter gates do these days is to include a loop, indicated by the presence of send and return/receive jacks (i.e., look for a gate with _four_ jacks, and not two). Your guitar goes directly into the gate. The send jack goes out to whatever pedals you are going to use. The output of the pedals comes back to the gate, and then the gate goes to your amp. This allows the gate to tell the difference between wanted and unwanted signal at that point where it is easiest and most reliable to do so, but _apply_ the gating at the end, where the most noise will have accumulated.

The final output of the gate does not have to be the last thing before your amp. If you have other pedals that are known to not contribute much noise at all, feel free to stick them after the gate. What is most critical is to clean up the amplified hiss/hum that your higher-gain pedal/s have produced.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

I found my Boss NS2 wored great, but only if used as a send/return loop.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I just grabbed a TC Sentry off of ebay for $96USD. A little over the budget, but a good deal. One shop has a surplus, and they're selling for less than the used price over at TGP.

I bought it, because I have a few different levels of noise - hum from wiring, hum from my amp, and noise from high gain. This pedal allows for 3 different frequencies (?) to be gated.


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

Player99 said:


> What do you mean by feedback? Noise gates usually get rid of hum when you stop playing.


I say feedback because its as annoying as putting your guitar close to the speaker (i was always told that it was called feedback) plus the hum of a single coil. I tried with different guitar but the ¨feedback¨ is always there.


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

Budda said:


> You don't need a noisegate per se, you probably need to use less gain.


Its not just gain. Its almost everything that cause the feedback (in my amp). I think the clean channel is safe but i never use it. Also, don't take it as an insult but, anything that i say that it would be nice to have, you say that i don't need it. I understand for the other stuff like the pickup, pedals and other but this problem is a serious problem for me


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

They are an excellent tool to combat noise. But depending on several factors you need to determine where it's going to get placed. In many situations, you may require two of them. One pre and post. Cost wise either the Boss NS2 or the MXR Smart Gate can be had for your money used. I prefer the MXR myself. When it comes down to implementing it, do some research. There are a lot of resources out there on where to place gates.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

The TC Sentry does look good altho slightly over budget. Several Boss units on eBay right now within your budget. MXR, too as recommended. Shouldn't be a problem. (I even built my own from a kit years ago. Worked slick. Don't need one now thanks to lower volumes.)


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

Wow, i looked at the price of the pedal, even on ebay. Also its 75-100 in cad. At this price, i wonder i i should get a pedal with a gate integrated in it


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

In my experience if you're using multiple gain pedals together you'll want a seperate gate pedal with a loop function to silence them all.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Behringer pedals can be bought very cheaply. The circuits are often clones of earlier Boss pedals. I know people look down their noses at plastic-enclosure Behringers, and I understand their dislike of the switching in those pedals. But few players will be stepping on their noise gate pedals repeatedly during a gig. It will mostly be used as an always-on pedal, so the cheapness of the foot-treadle doesn't matter as much.


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

Oh i forgot to mention, sure ill buy pedal in the future but for now i use the integrated pedal effect integrated in my amp, (yay it have a simulation of a TS9) so i got lods of pedal to choose from. (Not the actual setting of my amp)


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

I was ordering stuff anyway so I grabbed a Talent (kind of the American version of Apex; they recently came out weith a line of Mooer style supermini pedals) Noise Gate pedal for a firiend (and a tuner for me). The entire line is US$30 +/- (dependng on the pedal) on sale (introductary pricing?). The gate works well; my friend used it last jam after adding 6 more pedals to his chain for recording. The tuner is actually decent too; got it for the pedalboard so I could take the Peterson Strobostomp home for setup work. I usually would stay away, but at this price, even if it breaks in a year that's not bad. The build definitely looks more solid than my Biyang delay.

"Talent GT-NG GATED Noise Gate Guitar Mini FX Pedal Stomp Box" from www.parts-express.com!

Still on sale. The line even includes a power supply (seems like a miniaturised clone of the original MXR DC brick - 9V only and no isolation; but that's fine for most people).

NEW Talent Pedals and Accessories

The shipping ain't so bad (choose the 'economy' option which includes all duties and taxes so no surprises; if you don't see it , that means there's at least one item in your order that does not qualify - these pedals do; try removing things or call their 1-800 number).


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Are you using singlecoils in a room with fluorescent lights?


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

Budda said:


> Are you using singlecoils in a room with fluorescent lights?


Nope, humbucker


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

Budda said:


> Are you using singlecoils in a room with fluorescent lights?


I already tried a telecaster in a place with fluorescent light and it is way different than the noise my amp create


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2017)

If you put your guitar close to the speaker it's going to feed back. I think you are suffering from poor technique as much as 60 cycle hum.


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

Player99 said:


> If you put your guitar close to the speaker it's going to feed back. I think you are suffering from poor technique as much as 60 cycle hum.


Huh? I don't get it?


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2017)

High gain and close proximity to the amp will cause feedback. Ever notice high gain players on YouTube pedal demos and lessons immediately turn the guitar volume off as soon as they stop playing?

When you put the guitar near the amp with high gain it will squeal like a pig.

I would lower the volume of the signal in the effects and increase the amp volume. Sounds like your signal is too hot.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2017)

The VoxVT20+ is 20 watts. Not a super loud amp. If you crank the amp it is probable going past it's limit. Solid state amps aren't as loud as tube amps. A 20 watt solid state is not as loud as a Fender Deluxe usually in my experience. You might need a much bigger amp to get performance volume without the amp going haywire.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

Don't have your amp behind or in front of you, have it on the side.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

A gate can help with feedback when playing in high gain situations; it is literally like an auto volume cut when you stop playing (and auto on again when you start). If that's the issue.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Sounds to me like you are describing microphonic feedback- is it a very high pitched squeal that happens even if you use your hands to mute the strings (place your hand on them to prevent the strings from vibrating)?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The suggestion about possible microphonics is worth exploring. And if it IS microphonics, then I'm not entirely sure a gate ahead of the amplifier would necessarily address the issue. I'm assuming that the FX included on the amp are all digital.


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

gtrguy said:


> Sounds to me like you are describing microphonic feedback- is it a very high pitched squeal that happens even if you use your hands to mute the strings (place your hand on them to prevent the strings from vibrating)?


I try to mute them then it stops but there is a huge, i don't know how to describe the noise but it is very unpleasant and a soon as i slightly move my hand it screams. Also i would like to add, my vox can go up to 30w. Its kinda missleading a bit.


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

Hammerhands said:


> Don't have your amp behind or in front of you, have it on the side.


I always play far and ln the side of my amp. But it still squeal/feedback/unpleasant sound


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

Also, ill remove the guitar factor here cuz i tryed a jackson soloist with emg 81/85, ibanez rg 370 sd sh4 jb and a flying v burstbucker pro. They all do the same


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Humor me: what amp sim are you using and what is your gain set to?


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2017)

Again I will state: It is so obvious your little 20 watt low end amp can't take the volumes you want it to produce...


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

Budda said:


> Humor me: what amp sim are you using and what is your gain set to?


Gain is set to the half and amp sim is i think uk metal or us metal. Add a tube od effect and not much else


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

MkWolfire said:


> Gain is set to the half and amp sim is i think uk metal or us metal. Add a tube od effect and not much else


Pretty much any "metal" setting on an amp similar to yours has the gain on the equivalent of 10 as soon as you hit 3 on the dial. Adding any tubescreamer type pedal with the gain past 2 and you are, indeed, in feedback hell.

Turn your gain down, hear the magic happen.


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## Guest (Mar 13, 2017)

Don't expect to keep up to a drummer's volume with that amp.


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

Player99 said:


> Don't expect to keep up to a drummer's volume with that amp.


I do keep up with a drummer. Friend's kit and the school's kit. It's loud enough


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Player99 said:


> Don't expect to keep up to a drummer's volume with that amp.


Why not? I've kept up to drummers just fine with a 5 watt tube amp, and 15W solid state before.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Player99 said:


> Don't expect to keep up to a drummer's volume with that amp.


I'd agree with you that precious few 20W amps would provide a clean sound that would be competitive with a drum kit. Don't forget that he likes his tone dirty. If cleanliness is not the objective, 20W amps are loud enough.


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2017)

MkWolfire said:


> I do keep up with a drummer. Friend's kit and the school's kit. It's loud enough


Actually you cannot keep up unless you have the amp set so loud all it does is squeal and feedback uncontrollably. That is the real issue here.

For others who think it can, remember this is a 20 watt low end solid state amp, not a Fender Deluxe tube amp. I just bought a 30 watt solid state Fender amp for practice, and was suprised how quiet is is compared to a 30 watt tube amp. The 30 watt tube amp is very very loud. The solid state is great for quiet practicing, but I would not be able to gig with it as it runs out of headroom quickly.

Headroom is the actual key here. He has run out of headroom.

I know guys who have tried and failed to gig with the 22 watt Fender Deluxe Reverb. If the venue is of any size and the drummer plays the way most drummers do, you have to move up some wattage to be heard, or have the amp dime'd which will cause the issues the OP is having. This is without micing the amp through the PA of course.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Learning to play without distortion.


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

High/Deaf said:


> Learning to play without distortion.


Well actually, i had plenty of time to practice in clean. Better than clean, no amp at all lol for a pretty long time (for me)
But now i think we drift off subject a little bit


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

@MkWolfire

I have a BOSS NS-2 here that you can try out, see if it works for you.

Well within your budget. Send me a PM if you're interested.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2017)

The VoxVT20+ has an 8" speaker... but it does have a single 12AX7.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

MkWolfire said:


> Well actually, i had plenty of time to practice in clean. Better than clean, no amp at all lol for a pretty long time (for me)
> But now i think we drift off subject a little bit


If you are getting squealing and feedback type noises, it can be pickup problems, where you're standing, the type and amount of gain you're using, even the guitar (a Gretsch archtop will squeal while an LP is quiet as a mouse) or a number of other things. Reducing the gain until you find the culprit is the solution. A noise-gate, once opened up (when you play) will lead you to the same problems. And once they start, the noise gate won't mask them, You need to mute the signal to get the gate to engage again.


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

High/Deaf said:


> If you are getting squealing and feedback type noises, it can be pickup problems, where you're standing, the type and amount of gain you're using, even the guitar (a Gretsch archtop will squeal while an LP is quiet as a mouse) or a number of other things. Reducing the gain until you find the culprit is the solution. A noise-gate, once opened up (when you play) will lead you to the same problems. And once they start, the noise gate won't mask them, You need to mute the signal to get the gate to engage again.


Well actually the noise that is disturbing is only at idle when i do nothing, when i start playing the sound is not there anymore


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

A-HA! Do you use a compressor, or a compression effect on your amp?
One of the things that compressors do is treat any noise remaining when you stop playing as a low-level signal that _desperately_ needs boosting. It's such a common consequence that there is an industry-wide term for when that happens: "breathing". That is, when you stop playing, the compressor brings in greatly-amplified input noise so that it sounds like a person taking a deep inhale.

One of my favorite-ever compressors was one I made for myself using the SSM2166 chip. The chip includes downward expansion and compression capabilities such that anything below a certain minimum signal level is reduced even further. The result is dead quiet compressor function when you stop playing.

So maybe your noise problem stems from too much compression?


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

mhammer said:


> A-HA! Do you use a compressor, or a compression effect on your amp?
> One of the things that compressors do is treat any noise remaining when you stop playing as a low-level signal that _desperately_ needs boosting. It's such a common consequence that there is an industry-wide term for when that happens: "breathing". That is, when you stop playing, the compressor brings in greatly-amplified input noise so that it sounds like a person taking a deep inhale.
> 
> One of my favorite-ever compressors was one I made for myself using the SSM2166 chip. The chip includes downward expansion and compression capabilities such that anything below a certain minimum signal level is reduced even further. The result is dead quiet compressor function when you stop playing.
> ...


Nope, never use compression. I put marshall jcm800 simulation, gain,treble,mid,bass all at the middle and a Ibanez TS9 tube screamer simulation


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

Go at 1:30min, thats the kind of noise that i get


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Yeah, that's from too much gain and/or volume.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

MkWolfire said:


> Go at 1:30min, thats the kind of noise that i get


Okay, that clears it all up. As The Police once sang: Don't stand, don't stand, don't stand so close to me.

If your instrument is resonant, the gain is up high, the pickups are even a little microphonic, and you're facing in the "right" direction, it doesn't take that much volume at all to generate feedback. I can do it with a 2W battery-powered amp.

Justin is right in suggesting less gain. Remember that "gain" will often serve to act like compression, in that it can end up constricting the dynamic range. If you're at a close enough distance that the guitar or pickups can be jiggled into vibrating, you'll get feedback very easily.

Possible cures?
Verify that your pickups are potted (although many humbuckers are not, and deliberately so). One of the things I like to do is wrap the coils with Teflon plumber's tape. In many instances, it can be used to pack in the coil a little tighter so that it doesn't shake at higher sustained volumes.
Consider orienting your amp differently so that the chance of it being pointed directly at you is lessened.
Stand further back, and/or try not to face the amp when you play.
Don't sit on top of the amp like the guy in the video.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

FWIW, the amount of gain in that video clip is appalling. There's no note definition.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

It's called sludge, dude. Notice he's using a Dark Terror too; doesn't help with the definition. And that's not even so bad (relative to some stuff I've heard).


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Granny Gremlin said:


> It's called sludge, dude. Notice he's using a Dark Terror too; doesn't help with the definition. And that's not even so bad (relative to some stuff I've heard).


Given the intro riff I'm not sure sludge was what he was after, but who knows. I only listened to the first 5 seconds and the feedback bit.

I know that some people go for sludge, power to them.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Yeah - I meant sludge tone not necessarily the genre. He was also probably cranking it to get more noise/feedback (the better to school the kids who are legit making that mistake, on noise gates; we've all been there).


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## Guest (Mar 17, 2017)

Wow this thread is amazing.


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

Also, i cant lower the gain, lemme explain, yesterday i did a show for a small group of people with my friend, my amp was in front of me, i was far away from the amp and the gain was set to maybe 2 but at this point, i cranked the volume/master and power setting to the max and it was really quiet, i cranked the gain just a bit and i got all the power of my amp. Btw, can someone explain me the difference between volume and master?


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Think of your amp as two seperate amps. The pre amp and the power amp. The preamp adds most of the gain to the guitar signal and feeds it to the power amp. The power amp amplifies it for more volume. 

The volume control (also known as a gain control) controls the output of the preamp. The master controls the output of the power amp. 

By keeping the master volume low, and cranking the volume knob your pushing the preamp harder without the massive volume you'd get from pushing both sections together.


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

cboutilier said:


> Think of your amp as two seperate amps. The pre amp and the power amp. The preamp adds most of the gain to the guitar signal and feeds it to the power amp. The power amp amplifies it for more volume.
> 
> The volume control (also known as a gain control) controls the output of the preamp. The master controls the output of the power amp.
> 
> By keeping the master volume low, and cranking the volume knob your pushing the preamp harder without the massive volume you'd get from pushing both sections together.


Hmm, very knteresting, so i put the go,ume knob lower when i put the master at max?


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

MkWolfire said:


> Hmm, very knteresting, so i put the go,ume knob lower when i put the master at max?


Volume knob*


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

If you don't want screaming feedback yes - and given what the amp is, you don't want the master at max.

Get a more powerful amp. It will make your life easier.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Budda said:


> If you don't want screaming feedback yes - and given what the amp is, you don't want the master at max.
> 
> Get a more powerful amp. It will make your life easier.


My master is almost always at max on every amp I play


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

cboutilier said:


> My master is almost always at max on every amp I play


They probably aren't practice amps.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2017)

5 pages to get to the fact that a low end 20 watt crappy SS Vox amp with an 8" speaker running with the master on full, the on board effects maxed plus 2 driven into each other, might squeal... Whew...


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Budda said:


> They probably aren't practice amps.


Only the Valve Junior. I removed the Master from my Super Reverb


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

The valve jr is not really a practice amp either - it barely does quiet.


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

Budda said:


> If you don't want screaming feedback yes - and given what the amp is, you don't want the master at max.
> 
> Get a more powerful amp. It will make your life easier.


Yeah, right, i was thinking about a mesa roadster combo 100 watts


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

MkWolfire said:


> Yeah, right, i was thinking about a mesa roadster combo 100 watts


Way too much weight IMO - head and 212 cab would be easier to deal with, and you can snag a 412 later.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Budda said:


> Way too much weight IMO - head and 212 cab would be easier to deal with, and you can snag a 412 later.


I personally prefer a heavy combo to a head/cab setup


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

Budda said:


> Way too much weight IMO - head and 212 cab would be easier to deal with, and you can snag a 412 later.


Im kidding, 1st, i don't have the money to buy one and second, i couldnt even put it loud enough for it to sound great


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

MkWolfire said:


> Im kidding, 1st, i don't have the money to buy one and second, i couldnt even put it loud enough for it to sound great


Cuz i live in an apartment


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Fortunately for you mesa boogie master volume amps work quite well. I had a roadster halfstack next to a neighbour's new baby's room (townhouse).

Save up, buy an amp that does what you need it to do properly. Taking a honda civic to tow a 30ft trailer is probably possible, but not a good idea.

The amp you have is fine - just not for what you necessarily want.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

cboutilier said:


> I personally prefer a heavy combo to a head/cab setup


Have you ever lifted a Roadster 212 though? OMFG!

As well as the central top handle, it has big bass-cab type handles on the sides but it is too wide for someone (at least me) to grab on to by themselves. It was literally a two-man lift everywhere but into the back of my car (a hatchback with a low tailgate height). I remember taking it upstairs once - ONCE - and it took about 10 minutes, going up one stair at a time. It was a great amp, but I sold it mostly because I just couldn't take it out very often. Love my LSS @ 50lbs so much more. An amp that gets used all the time.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2017)

If you want to bump up a bit on the cheap, check out the Fender Mustang Series amplifiers.

I bought the Mustang II v2 which is 30 watts. Too small, much like what you have. But the Mustang III v2 is 100 watts, and the Mustang IV v2 is 150 watts. I would think the Mustang III v2 would be the one for you OP. They sell used between $250 - $350 CAD. NOTE: Be sure to get the v2 if buying used. Here are the specs:

The Fender Mustang III is a 100W open-back combo amp with a 12" Celestion speaker that sounds great and pumps serious volume. It contains 100 amp presets derived from 12 different amp models that deliver tones from vintage Fender sparkle to outrageous modern metal distortion, and 37 different effects in four categories (stomp, modulation, delay and reverb), all easily and instantly accessed. 

The Mustang III combo is great for rehearsing, jamming and small gigs, and the 1/8" headphone jack doubles as a speaker-emulated line out. Further, connect Mustang III to your computer with its USB output and use the included Fender Fuse software to open up a world of possibilities, including on-screen parameter control, deep editing, additional effects, unlimited preset storage, online preset swapping with the Fender Fuse community, and free Fender artist presets. 

The Mustang III combo's included programmable two-button footswitch controls preset up/down, quick access, effects on/off and tap tempo (optional four-button footswitch also available). 

Mustang III packs it all into a striking visual design with sleek and modern Fender styling that provides a look that's as desirable as the sound. 

FEATURES 
-100W 
-12" Celestion G12T-100 speaker 
-All-new DSP platform 
-12 amp models: '57 Deluxe, '59 Bassman, '57 Champ, '65 Deluxe Reverb, '65 Princeton Reverb, '65 Twin Reverb, Super-Sonic, British '60s, British '70s, British '80s, American '90s, Metal 2000 
-7 stomp effects: Overdrive, Fixed Wah, Touch Wah, Fuzz, Fuzz Touch Wah, Compressor, Simple Compressor 
-11 modulation effects: Sine Chorus, Triangle Chorus, Sine Flanger, Triangle Flanger, Vibratone, Vintage Tremolo, Sine Tremolo, Ring Modulator, Step Filter, Phaser, Pitch Shifter 
-9 delay effects: Mono Delay, Mono Echo Filter, Stereo Echo Filter, Multitap Delay, Ping Pong Delay, Ducking Delay, Reverse Delay, Tape Delay, Stereo Tape Delay 
-10 Reverb Effects: Small Hall, Large Hall, Small Room, Large Room, Small Plate, Large Plate, Ambient, Arena, Fender '63 Spring Reverb, Fender '65 Spring Reverb 
-Mono series FX loop 
-Chromatic tuner 
-1/8" aux input 
-1/8" headphone jack (doubles as a speaker-emulated line out) 
-USB port 
-Black textured carbon tweed vinyl covering with silver grille cloth 
-Includes 2-button programmable footswitch 
-Includes Fender Fuse software for on-screen parameter control, deep editing, unlimited preset storage, online patch swapping, and easy firmware upgrades 

SPECIFICATIONS 
-Mustang III 100W 1x12 Guitar Combo Amp 
17-3/4"H x 20-1/2"W x 10-3/4"D 
36 lb.

Fender Guitars | Electric, Acoustic & Bass Guitars, Amps, Pro Audio


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I would get at least 100 watts if you ever wanted to play it out.

My rule-of-thumb for amps is:
- with tube amps, buy just the amount of power you need and no more, because more power adds quite a bit of weight (PT and OT get bigger) and I think tubes sound better when they are working hard and getting into clipping.
- with SS amps, buy as much power as you can. There is no such thing as 'too much power' because there isn't much of a weight penalty (SS amps are fairly efficient and only one transformer to increase in weight) but most because you do not EVER want to hear that SS power amp clip. That sounds horrendous.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

High/Deaf said:


> Have you ever lifted a Roadster 212 though? OMFG!
> 
> As well as the central top handle, it has big bass-cab type handles on the sides but it is too wide for someone (at least me) to grab on to by themselves. It was literally a two-man lift everywhere but into the back of my car (a hatchback with a low tailgate height). I remember taking it upstairs once - ONCE - and it took about 10 minutes, going up one stair at a time. It was a great amp, but I sold it mostly because I just couldn't take it out very often. Love my LSS @ 50lbs so much more. An amp that gets used all the time.


I have not. But I had a 2x12 crate with a single top handle. It weighed in at 86.5 lbs


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The widely-accepted rule of thumb is that, holding speakers constant, one needs roughly 10x the wattage to double the perceived loudness. So, if one's current amp is capable of delivering sufficient current into a speaker load to yield 20W of power, it would take 200W for that same speaker cab to be _heard_ as twice as loud. I suppose YMMV, but what that points to for me is that variations in speaker and cab efficiency (which can easily range over 15-20db for different drivers and cabs, compared to 3db for 10x the power) likely accounts for more than mere amplifier wattage. Driven by a 20W amp, a pair of efficient 30W 12s in a ported closed-back cab can sound _immense_ compared to a 50W rated 10" of the same impedance in a smaller open-back cab.

Naturally, what often increases the perceived loudness of an amp is cab volume, which both changes the carrying weight, and often the spectral response. So, I wouldn't categorize a bigger cab with more efficient drivers as the solution to all ills. That said, often what some players desire from their amp is simply feeling their solar plexus vibrate a little when they hit an E chord. And if a larger cab with more bottom provides that tactile feedback, mission accomplished without the need for more wattage. Bottom also allows guitars to compete a little better with drums.

A great many lower-wattage amps are predicated on being for practice or beginners, and frequently have cabs that skimp on space, to save on wood, tolex, shipping costs by weight, packaging, and warehouse-storage/display-space requirements. Going by posted specs, the VT20 has an external cab volume of 2137 inches. An inch more in all 3 dimensions would provide an external volume of 2697 cubic. in. Let's say, for argument's sake, the cab is 1/2" plywood. That would yield a hypothetical internal volume of 1888 cubic inches, or roughly 1.1cubic feet. Adding the extra inch on all 3 dimensions gives an internal volume 2408 cubic inches, or about 1.4 cubic feet, or roughly 28% more internal volume.

The "thump" of an 8" speaker will generally be limited (though the 8" JBL I installed in my Tweed Princeton has a surprising amount of bottom - one of the main reasons why I bought it to replace the stock 8" Jensen), but that simple, seemingly small, change in cab dimensions would deliver a noticeably bigger sound. And I imagine it would also likely add at least $20-25 to sticker price. When manufacturers are going after that entry-level market, they will choose to go for a smaller cab than deliver a more satisfying product at a higher sticker price. Not only because it might jeopardize sales by making consumers more reluctant and possibly select a competitor's product ($25 means more to a beginner than to a pro), but because being happy with a budget product may stand in the way of upgrading to a more costly one from the same manufacturer.

At the other end of the spectrum, higher wattage is associated with greater headroom. If the goal is to be able to play louder cleans, then higher wattage is the preferred route. This is what made Twin Reverbs the go-to backline amp for so many musicians.

Try out your amp with an external cab and see what you think of its potential.


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## MkWolfire (Oct 14, 2016)

mhammer said:


> The widely-accepted rule of thumb is that, holding speakers constant, one needs roughly 10x the wattage to double the perceived loudness. So, if one's current amp is capable of delivering sufficient current into a speaker load to yield 20W of power, it would take 200W for that same speaker cab to be _heard_ as twice as loud. I suppose YMMV, but what that points to for me is that variations in speaker and cab efficiency (which can easily range over 15-20db for different drivers and cabs, compared to 3db for 10x the power) likely accounts for more than mere amplifier wattage. Driven by a 20W amp, a pair of efficient 30W 12s in a ported closed-back cab can sound _immense_ compared to a 50W rated 10" of the same impedance in a smaller open-back cab.
> 
> Naturally, what often increases the perceived loudness of an amp is cab volume, which both changes the carrying weight, and often the spectral response. So, I wouldn't categorize a bigger cab with more efficient drivers as the solution to all ills. That said, often what some players desire from their amp is simply feeling their solar plexus vibrate a little when they hit an E chord. And if a larger cab with more bottom provides that tactile feedback, mission accomplished without the need for more wattage. Bottom also allows guitars to compete a little better with drums.
> 
> ...


How to plug it in an external cab? There is no output


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2017)

Your amp does not have an extension cab jack. It has a headphone jack that models a speaker, but that won't do.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Presumably there are "spade lug" connectors to the speaker for easy installation. Those can be easily connected to an extension cable to another speaker cab. Not pretty, but it works.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2017)

What about the ohms? Is it not hard on an amp to run (especially full blast) with mismatched ohms?


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Player99 said:


> What about the ohms? Is it not hard on an amp to run (especially full blast) with mismatched ohms?


Not nearly as much of an issue with solid state amps, apart from efficiency differences. A solid state amp actually prefers to see no speaker at all


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2017)

cboutilier said:


> Not nearly as much of an issue with solid state amps, apart from efficiency differences. A solid state amp actually prefers to see no speaker at all


Solid state PA systems need speakers or they can blow...


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Player99 said:


> Solid state PA systems need speakers or they can blow...


Sorry but that's just not true. Solid state gear loves to run into an open circuit. The higher the impedance, the less current it's supplying and the less work it has to do. Also, the less power (volume) you will get out of it. But it will run forever like that and not even get warm.

If you blew up your PA, it wasn't because you had no load tied to it. Too low of a load was much more likely the cause. Or bridging an amp and running it at even slightly lower load than spec'd - that's a real killer. I've fixed quite a few bridged amps that the band thought they could just run another sub off of. And then put tinfoil around the fuse when it blew. I suppose they didn't notice the smoke coming out of it because of the dry ice machine. The insides were pretty well turned to charcoil.


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2017)

High/Deaf said:


> Sorry but that's just not true. Solid state gear loves to run into an open circuit. The higher the impedance, the less current it's supplying and the less work it has to do. Also, the less power (volume) you will get out of it. But it will run forever like that and not even get warm.
> 
> If you blew up your PA, it wasn't because you had no load tied to it. Too low of a load was much more likely the cause. Or bridging an amp and running it at even slightly lower load than spec'd - that's a real killer. I've fixed quite a few bridged amps that the band thought they could just run another sub off of. And then put tinfoil around the fuse when it blew. I suppose they didn't notice the smoke coming out of it because of the dry ice machine. The insides were pretty well turned to charcoil.


I will not argue, but I will humbly disagree. Newer PA's may have some sort of protection, but my 1990's Yorkville 1212 (2 x 600 watts) did not like it when I had a bad cable and one speaker went out. I could be wrong though... (I have been before)...

EDIT: Here is a post from a thread on Gearslutz:

- Some may begin to oscillate without a load and the oscillation can make them fail. It's generally a rarity but there are some examples of amplifiers that may do so.

- Some solid-state amplifiers use output transformers and similar topologies as generic tube amps, some of such designs even run with high voltage power supplies. Particular examples of such designs would be several mid 1960's single-ended class-A SS amps that used an OT and a supply voltage of approximately 150 VDC. These may have similar issues with flyback voltages and arcing as tube amps.

Naturally, it all depends on design. Most SS amps run perfectly happy without a load but simply being solid-state is not enough grounds to assume that an amp can do it. It always depends on the circuit.

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/do-solid-state-amps-need-a-load.764373/


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I suspect it was more likely the cable that perhaps shorted before the speaker went out. Or a bad speaker that shorted. That's what kills PA's with direct (low impedance) outputs.

I've dealt with SS PA's that have OT's - used for 70V line driver systems, like paging systems in a hotel. One amp driving dozens of speakers as constant voltage source and small xformers at each speaker tapping the voltage back down again. There were also 25V systems that allowed by directional comms, like what your school may have had. If the OT is unloaded and doesn't have a problem, I can not see technically how that amp would oscillate itself to death. If the OT has an internal short, sure I can see it happening. 

But I doubt you're running a 4/8/16 ohm PA system with line drive taps on an old PA amp. It wouldn't work very well. 

Anyways, sorry you blew up your PA. Very unusual situation it if wasn't a bad cable or speaker. Especially as, IME, Yorkville is generally well built stuff.


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