# Why is buying a guitar in Canada so hard?



## newfmp3 (Feb 6, 2010)

Every now and then I want a new guitar. But, while I try and try and try to grab one from Canada, it hardly ever works out. It comes down to these issues

1. Price
2. Selection and availability.
3. Most importantly, Good service.

Not exactly rocket science.

No store seems to hit all 3 things. Example. LA Music. Off and on for months I'll send them an email asking things like is this in stock? can I have a picture. Nothing complicated. The response if I get one is always the same, some guy says I'll check and get back to you, and they never do. I've even gone so far as to email telling them of my multiple attempts to get help and all I get is crickets. Piss poor service. Could I call them, sure, but if I am having this much trouble with trying to buy something, what happens when things go wrong.

Next up. Tundra Music. Has a fender I like.....emailed for pictures, crickets. Price is too high anyway....see ya.

Next, The Guitar Shop. My go to guys when Brent was around. They responded to a few questions via email almost immediately. Perfect. Good selection, not great, but good, but will not move on price and expects me to pay for shipping on a $3000.00 guitar?!?! and did not answer some key questions. I think the price thing they genuinely have their hands tied on this item. Since I have had good success with these guys over the years, this is where I'd rather spend my money most times.

Comparison. I emailed Wildwood tonight, same guitar that's at the guitar shop, within minutes I got a response, we are back and forth with him answering everything I asked...I got pics, heck I even got a video. Took less then 20mins to get a deal. But, I am not !00% on the color of the guitar but that's a preference thing not an "issue"


This is how it works out every single time. I want to give my money back to Canada. There are just more options in the US and they try harder to get our business. Sadly this isn't just a guitar issue as I see it all the time with my work and buying servers, or networking equipment. 

Why? I waste more time trying to get things in Canada when it takes 20mins to find something in the US, and I usually get overnight shipping for free, and just pay taxes at the door.

- - - Updated - - -

Just to add: For me, my emailing back and forth is not only a fact finding mission, its also my interview process. I get a feel for who I am dealing with before I drop 3k on a guitar. If the store fails to communicate....good bye


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Ha! Have you ever checked the L&M web site and looked to see what they actually have in stock? I'd estimate about 30% and most things I have asked for that they say they can order take months to get, if they can get it at all. I have tried ordering a Mono gig bag they have on their web site a couple of times in the last year and apparently they can't actually get one.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I think it's great that you give Canadian companies a chance to earn your business.
but in the end, you have to go with the best option.

It's a shame when businesses fail they often blame "the economy" instead of taking a hard look at what they did to lose business.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

bluzfish said:


> Ha! Have you ever checked the L&M web site and looked to see what they actually have in stock? I'd estimate about 30% and most things I have asked for that they say they can order take months to get, if they can get it at all. I have tried ordering a Mono gig bag they have on their web site a couple of times in the last year and apparently they can't actually get one.


Their web site is a joke. Try searching for a specific Godin guitar. They all come up or none at all. When I want to check something out, I usually go to Sweetwater or Musician's Friend. They have great web sites and they will usually dicker on price.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> Their web site is a joke. Try searching for a specific Godin guitar. They all come up or none at all. When I want to check something out, I usually go to Sweetwater or Musician's Friend. They have great web sites and they will usually dicker on price.


Yeah, I don't know who their web site designer is but I can make better database search engines in Excel. Their's comes up with all kinds of goofy results that make me go "Huh??".


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

I would also like to spend my money in Canada and I try to but I have to agree with the OP - it seems as though Canadian music businesses have less than stellar service. It may be because they are a small operation or maybe that they are too big, who knows. 

I've been having a bit of a tough time dealing with a small Canadian business. Good products but communication is not that great. Nice person but good forbid I ask more than one question in an email. If I do, I am lucky to get even one answered. How f#*%ing hard is it to read an email and answer some basic questions with the original text right in front of you! It's just really frustrating for me. I finally gave up on the product and just said never mind.

I did, however, use the L&M website recently with some success. I was looking for a particular pickup and checked Amazon.com first since I do most of my shopping there. I found the same pickup for $1 more on the L&M website. I used their check store inventory option and saw that my local L&M was one of three stores that had the pickup. Drove over there and bought it.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I find the L&M site a disaster.
I had an easier time navigating the old site.

Anyway, it is good that you try to do business north of the border first.
I've had really good success ordering from vendors within the forum.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I'm going to bet it's your 'screening' process.

Talk to a person. Trying to get shit done by email sends a message. Why don't you try calling first and emailing after. That makes much more sense to me.

I just sent an email to Music Pro in Barrie, ON asking if the have the EHX Organ Machine pedal in stock. I called them a couple of weeks ago when the thread about it was up, and they went and checked, etc. etc. 

Then I went in the store browsing and asked them again. They tore the shelves apart looking for one.

Let's see what happens concerning my email...


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

7:53am (before they even open, haha):

Hi Chuck,
Thanks for your email. We do not have the Electro Harmonix B9 Organ pedal in stock. We get these from the US, eta is often 9 days.


Thank you,
Ted

I'm thinking you need to check around for 'your' local guitar shop.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

I don't use Email when I want to ask about guitars at a shop. I just phone and talk to the one and only person I deal with. I buy almost everything from Long and McQuade in Oshawa. One of their employees, Bill Gillespie is the only person I talk to. He goes way above and beyond what is expected, for me and that alone will always bring me back. I've had to wait a few times for stuff, the longest being a few months for a American Special Strat but that wasn't their fault. I think everyone should have a sales guy they can go to that goes above and beyond for you. Once you find him/her your experiences will be fun and not a turn off.


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## ThatGingerMojo (Jul 30, 2014)

I was just reading in this months issue of Guitar Affeciando, htat Tokyo has the most used guitars per capita than any other city in the world. There are massive guitar sores that make L&M pale in comparison on almost every major street. I really have to go to Tokyo now, its just I will never have enough money to buy all the guitars that I will want.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

bluzfish said:


> Yeah, I don't know who their web site designer is but I can make better database search engines in Excel. Their's comes up with all kinds of goofy results that make me go "Huh??".


I agree, i have sent them emails about there search and it sucks...at L .M


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## pstratman (Jan 26, 2012)

In Canada, I like the little guys, Central Music, Ostaneks before the buy out, even Capsule has been very good to me.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

I have always heard good things about 12 fret.


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## deadear (Nov 24, 2011)

I guess Canadian stores are busy with walk in traffic. Real buyers ,not E- mails etc. from 95% of computer shopers that are just fishing and waisting time.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

plenty of in store stock, and great knowlegeable service is the only real advantage left for the retailers to stay in business.
Unfortunately , many of them havent figured that out yet.

NOT having a fantastic web site if in excusable to me.
How about those idiotic music store web sites that if click on the fender logo, they direct you to the fender web site. 
Or the other stupid store web site where they list ALL the sold stuff. Like I really care thay they dont have that guitar anymore.

HEre is some free advice thats worth the asking price.
Have a web site that is easily and accurately searchably for your instore stock.
A nice quick link to what you have on sale that week.
Answer those dammed email inquieries promptly and you may have some sales that would never have come from a walk in.

I dont think thats too much to ask in an era where the consumer realy does have a lot of options before they buy.

G.


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

One thing that ticks me off about some Canadian retailers - they freely display the logo of a manufacturer, but never have their products in the store, nor even offered on their website. It seems that the product logo in the store window or on the home page of their website is nothing more than a meaningless symbol once you've surveyed the inventory.

It seems to be a cheap trick to make their business look all-embracing when they _really _only sell the usual every day product lines.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I don't have any trouble getting guitars I want at reasonable prices. I also get excellent service.

How? Loyalty.

I can walk into my local shop (a well stocked and diverse one) and walk out with what I want, and worry about the price later.

They understand market prices and I understand the value of them being there to serve me. if I have to pay a few percent extra for that I'm in.

That can't happen if I go south of the border every time I have a chance to save a few bucks.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

Well, don't we all want a store like that. If I could buy locally and only have to pay "a few percent extra" I'd be in too. 

Where do you shop? I regularly save 30-50% by shopping across the border.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Stratin2traynor said:


> Well, don't we all want a store like that. If I could buy locally and only have to pay "a few percent extra" I'd be in too.
> 
> Where do you shop? I regularly save 30-50% by shopping across the border.


I shop at PA Music in Brantford, On.

You may not get the same deals I do, having dealt there for more than twenty years.

I'm in the states almost every week. I know the price deltas.


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## newfmp3 (Feb 6, 2010)

I figured I wasn't alone on this issue. The ONLY shop I have had any success dealing with at all over the years is The guitar shop in Toronto. Everything I have gotten from them has been top notch. I have every bit of confidence that if I did not like a guitar after getting it, or if god forbid something went wrong, they would take care of the issue. I think Brent was a little more aggressive with his sales, but there is no way he had a life. I mean he would answer emails any time of the day. I don't expect that kind of service, I'm a true believer in that everyone is entitled to their time off. Ryan and the guys have been nothing but nice to me, so if customer service is what your looking for....goto the guitar shop. I just think in this case, for the particular item I am looking at, their hands are tied and they have no option of going lower on price. It is odd though that the American store gave me a lower price within one email.

It seems dealers have a really hard time getting decent inventory for a decent price in Canada too. I have a buddy who is a dealer and says he can't touch the American prices at times as his prices at cost is often higher then sale prices in the US. I'm not going to pretend to know what dealers have to go through to get stock, but it seems they have a bum deal here in Canada and someone has their hands tied.

I will not excuse not getting back to me in this day and age. LA Music, I'm talking about you. If you are advertising yourself as a internet online music store, and your contact page is setup for me to ask questions via email...then ANSWER THEM.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

When I bought a set of Dimarzio Strat pups a few years ago I checked my local guitar shops (before L&Ms massive takeover in BC) and the best price I could find was $115 each and that was at L&M. I had previously checked online to know what the price discrepancy would be. When I asked the stores why there was such a difference, they all told me that in order for them to stock Dimarzio or most other brands for that matter, they have to abide by the Dimarzio's suggested retail price. I thought that was BS at the time but now that I see how Apple runs their show, I'm more inclined to believe it. Who knows. 

I just go by the level of service and the price tag. I don't mind paying a little extra for service and convenience but unless I have a compelling reason not to, I'll buy from the store who is selling it for 30-50% less.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i can only speak of my own experience, but it's this:

the 12th fret is a cool place to shop. the prices seem fair to what the local market is. they have some great stuff, and some less expensive stuff. zero junk, ever. 

L&M @ bloor and ossington is a decent place to shop. the guys there have always been nice to me. sometimes there are things i don't understand about how they do things, but generally, i like it there.

haven't bought anything at steve's yet, but they seem ok when i go in there. scarboro music, well... they did a good job setting up my strat, i'll leave it at that.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Service to me is having it in stock and shipping it when you said you were going to. Convenience is being able to buy it without leaving my house. I too will take the 30-50% price reduction.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

I can give one reason for having trouble buying, sometimes the retailer has to buy a minimum number of the particular item you are looking for, I needed an item that retailed for $1000.00, no one locally had any in stock so I enquired about ordering. Well the come back from the manufacturer/supplier was, as this is a limited edition you will be required to order a minimum of 100 units in order for us to ship to Canada. eBay here I come. There is no excuse for normal everyday items to be out of stock or back ordered, limited edition may be a back order item but minimum order, no wonder stores don't keep everything we may want in stock.


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## newfmp3 (Feb 6, 2010)

Yeah and that relates to the issue I mentioned earlier. I think Dealers here just get the short end of the stick up here in Canada on certain things. It is not fair or right at all. They need to be able to compete with the USA without going out of business. I know when I was in sales ions ago with audio/video there were items I just could not get a fair price on from wholesalers in comparison to the US. it was a losing battle.]

But, while that may be the case sometimes, it does not excuse the lack of communication and lack of answering simple basic questions. Some stores seem to get it right - The Guitar Shop in TO, 12th Fret, even my local guys - Village Music - once you find the good guys its obvious. But LA Music, shame on you. The amount of sales they have missed from me alone - I'm almost tempted to call their manager and complain, but its not worth my time. 

I'm stuck this time around. While I got a excellent deal from wildwood and Lance has and always is excellent to deal with, it is not quite what I am looking for. So I may just have to suck it up, go the old faithful TGS. The comfort of knowing that they will stand by their stuff might be worth the extra $$$


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

When seeking specific models of guitars, yes, it can get tough.

I had good luck dealing online, then on the phone with Capsule for one guitar.
Though they didn't have the exact model guitar, they had the same model in a different finish.
Again, that gets back to selection.

When you think about it though, we are a tenth the size,
trying to deal with some products that are built in the US.
Hard enough to compete if your the big fish, never mind the Mom and Pop stores.

Lack of communication though is inexcusable.
More and more, commerce is going the way of the Net.
If you ignore emails and inquiries and only dealing with walk ins, you're missing the boat.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

the only real trouble i ever had buying here is bringing stuff across the border. there is no valid reason for those ridiculous fees, and our lawmakers here should either put a stop to the gouging, or find a way to legislate a healthy competition. currently there seems to be a strategy similar the communications market here. everyone offers the same shit sammich, just pick the wrapper.


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## Rideski (Feb 25, 2009)

I always try locally first. Usually I'll check L&M, then Steve's (Ottawa) and if they don't have what I'm looking for I'll look on-line. My issue with L&M lately is customer service, even after spending upwards of $10k in there - I don't get treated as I would like to be. In fact the last time I tried to return a new pedal, I didn't like, they told that was the last time they would let me return anything (nice "no hassle return policy" boys)!
steves has always been good to me and I've shopped there for 30+ yrs??but their store is small and often dusty..
I bought my LP standard from the 12th Fret and those guys were superb! They offered to set it up for me, to my playing style, before shipping it and when I got it it was bang on. Excellent customer service.


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## bluesguitar1972 (Jul 16, 2011)

bluzfish said:


> Ha! Have you ever checked the L&M web site and looked to see what they actually have in stock? I'd estimate about 30% and most things I have asked for that they say they can order take months to get, if they can get it at all. I have tried ordering a Mono gig bag they have on their web site a couple of times in the last year and apparently they can't actually get one.


Interesting. I actually just ordered a Mono bag from my local L&M and it came in this past Friday. Took 1 week.

To the OP:
When dealing with Wildwood, you're dealing with guys who specialize in dealing high end guitars only. As with more products, It's pretty typical to get better service from a smaller specialty shop, than large chains, though personally, I've found dealing in person with my local L&M to be positive with good customer service. And when you're looking at 3k + guitars, your market is pretty thin, especially in Canada, so we have less stores, and less selection. I wish it were different but such is the reality of it.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

newfmp3 said:


> But LA Music, shame on you. The amount of sales they have missed from me alone - I'm almost tempted to call their manager and complain, but its not worth my time.


Well, you obviously found time to write several emails to them and to complain in numerous posts in this thread so...could that have been better spent just calling the retailer? I believe that's why they provide a 1-800 number? Seems like your "interview process" is neither efficient nor effective in some circumstances so....could that be an "issue" on your part? Just asking...


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

bluesguitar1972 said:


> Interesting. I actually just ordered a Mono bag from my local L&M and it came in this past Friday. Took 1 week.


Lucky you. Maybe I'll try yet again. I really want one.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

StevieMac said:


> Well, you obviously found time to write several emails to them and to complain in numerous posts in this thread so...could that have been better spent just calling the retailer? I believe that why they provide a 1-800 number? Seems like your "interview process" is neither efficient nor effective in some circumstances so....could that be an "issue" on your part? Just asking...


Naa he's not wrong, LA Music has to be the worst place to shop bar none... last time I was there the owner was on the phone to Yorkdale crying about how one of his neighbors was undercutting him on an Epi guitar... 20 minutes of sniveling and he never spoke a work to me. That was the last time I'd even consider giving those clowns money, every previous effort left me thinking, these guys have no concept... who tf would give them money?


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## bluesguitar1972 (Jul 16, 2011)

bluzfish said:


> Lucky you. Maybe I'll try yet again. I really want one.


Great bags - housed my Les Paul for the gig last night. Cheaper than a lot of online prices too. I think it was $214 plus tax.


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## newfmp3 (Feb 6, 2010)

StevieMac said:


> Well, you obviously found time to write several emails to them and to complain in numerous posts in this thread so...could that have been better spent just calling the retailer? I believe that's why they provide a 1-800 number? Seems like your "interview process" is neither efficient nor effective in some circumstances so....could that be an "issue" on your part? Just asking...


No , phone calls take forever. First you got the press 1 for English, then 2 for this, then 3 for that....now please hold.....someone picks up and then they aren't able to help you so you get transferred, sorry they are with customer so on hold again, oopps they hung up. Start over. I can send an email in seconds from anywhere. The text is right there in front of them. Once they get it, they can pass it around internally until someone knows the answer, then reply - no waiting on hold and my time isn't wasted. Besides, I will never buy anything without pictures, so they have to email me anyways. Anytime I tell someone my email over the phone, they mess it up. By sending something to them first, they have no excuse for getting my email wrong. There is also no language barrier via email. And I am a Newfoundlander so nobody understands me 

Guitars or anything I purchase these days is %95 via online and email.


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## gevans378 (Oct 12, 2006)

It has always bothered me that I buy an obscure pedal from a guy in Louisiana who calls me three weeks after the pedal has arrived to ask me if I'm happy with it, yet I get no real customer service from the stores I spend my money in at home. I'm not a Long & McQuade basher, I've got friends working there, but everyone seems to have the same stock. If you're looking at something a little different, you're inevitably going south. I realize we are dealing with different markets and different economies, but I wish I could spend more money locally. Its even worse if you are trying to see something different -- if its not a Fender or a Gibson in my hometown, you may as well give it away.


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## ampjunkie (Jul 30, 2009)

Sadly, this is the reality of shopping in Canada vs the US. The latter is just a much larger, MUCH more competitive, consumeristic market. That is the attitude and culture. I lived in the US for decades and the market is so much larger and competitive, that you can find sellers willing to offer great prices and great service. Contrast that to Canada which sometimes resembles Europe. More relaxed attitudes, enjoying life rather than working like a dog to get your business. 

I recently called two shops around the Greater Toronto Area that were supposed dealers for some products. One for a guitar (Schecter), the other for an amp (PRS Archon). Neither was in stock, neither had a demo to try, and both required you to BUY IT OUTRIGHT before they ordered it for you. Ridiculous.

Best bet -- just get it in the US and ship it to a border town that offers a mail holding service. I've had great experiences (while in the US) with Sweetwater and Musiciansfriend. And Amazon.com in the US has an amazing variety of music equipment and gear (can't say the same for Amazon.ca ...).


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## rockinbluesfan (Mar 3, 2008)

The title of this thread is true but to everyone who has this problem, try getting a lefty guitar. It is twice as hard and to buy local is almost impossible - they usually have a couple of low end guitars hanging in the corner. Check out L&M's website - a few acoustics and no electrics at all! I have over a dozen right now and every one from the U.S. Funny thing is, if a good lefty guitar deal does pop up there are a ton of bidders!


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## fretboard (May 31, 2006)

Hey Ampjunkie - give The Guitar Shop in Port Credit a call (or in keeping with this thread, an email) - they had an Archon in stock when I was in there last week and it's still up on their site;

http://www.theguitarshop.ca/prs-archon-head/


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## DC23 (Mar 28, 2014)

My experiences echo a lot of what others have said here. Pretty sad how music stores are in Canada. Customer service is rather non-existent. Unfortunately, I don't have a go-to guy that will go above and beyond for my business. I do my research and buy online - less attitude, better savings. I have had some good experiences at the odd L&M. I really do wish their website could allow you to search all used stock in their inventory, not just what the odd store chooses to list. I've found a lot of gems walking into an L&M unexpectedly that I would have jumped on without hesitation had I known it was actually in their inventory. Apparently, even the stores cannot search other stores inventory easily? Oh well, keeps my wallet in check!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

DC23 said:


> My experiences echo a lot of what others have said here. Pretty sad how music stores are in Canada. Customer service is rather non-existent. Unfortunately, I don't have a go-to guy that will go above and beyond for my business. I do my research and buy online - less attitude, better savings. I have had some good experiences at the odd L&M. I really do wish their website could allow you to search all used stock in their inventory, not just what the odd store chooses to list. I've found a lot of gems walking into an L&M unexpectedly that I would have jumped on without hesitation had I known it was actually in their inventory. Apparently, even the stores cannot search other stores inventory easily? Oh well, keeps my wallet in check!


So you don't believe that hand picking a guitar makes a difference? Many people will tell you that if you're picking out a particular guitar, it's wise to play several examples as one will often be better than the others.

I do buy some things on line but my preference is to try them before I buy them.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

bluesguitar1972 said:


> Great bags - housed my Les Paul for the gig last night. Cheaper than a lot of online prices too. I think it was $214 plus tax.


$214 for a *BAG!!??*

No doubt a great bag as far as bags go (maybe the best ever made)...but $214 can buy 2 hard cases.

Buying a bag this expensive is like Katie Perry music to me - I just don't get it.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I don't get a $200 Gig bag.

Katie Perry I get.


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## buzzy (May 28, 2011)

I'm in the group of those who like to try things in person as much as possible. One thing that will make me walk out of a store and never return is a bad attitude regarding special orders. I can understand that the owner would rather sell you something from existing stock but a sale is a sale. I don't think ordering something for me is asking too much.


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## newfmp3 (Feb 6, 2010)

Ok, so after another week of trying to get a hold of several dealers across Canada and getting nowhere, once again the only dealer that stood out, answered all my questions, put up with me asking for all sorts of pictures and provided them all - The Guitar Shop in Toronto. www.theguitarshop.ca

So, gotta new CS Strat on the way. 


I will say that lance/Wildwood in the US really stepped up and made it hard to say no. Can not go wrong with either of these stores really but TGS won this round.


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## DC23 (Mar 28, 2014)

Milkman said:


> So you don't believe that hand picking a guitar makes a difference? Many people will tell you that if you're picking out a particular guitar, it's wise to play several examples as one will often be better than the others.
> 
> I do buy some things on line but my preference is to try them before I buy them.


Of course I would rather try things out before buying. I also understand there are variations within even the same model. However, I don't live in a bustling city with multiple music stores (with a lot of stock) to 'hand pick' my guitar. Sometimes the best option is buying online for me. If I can luck out and find something I like in the one or two small stores within a 3 hour drive of me, then of course I buy. Unfortunately, living in certain places forces one to be resourceful when it comes to music gear!


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## 59burst (May 27, 2010)

I moved her from the US four years ago. I just recently purchased my first guitar from a store in Canada (a Collings acoustic). The service and vibe and selection at both 12th Fret and Folkway Music (Waterloo) was outstanding. I would recommend either of those two places. I hope to check out The Guitar Shop sometime. 

I think Canada has a distributor between manufacturers like Gibson and retailers ... is that correct? That probably adds to the cost here. 

I really miss the price and selection of both the new and used market in the US.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

____________________


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

nkjanssen said:


> As far as online dealers within Canada, I've had great experiences with 12th Fret, Capsule, Folkway, Electric Mojo, Quest Musique, Moog Audio and a few others I'm forgetting. As far as Wildwood in the U.S., I find their prices extremely high and they won't move on anything. I prefer Dave's Guitars in LaCrosse, Wisconsin. Actually, I prefer Austin Vintage Guitars and South Austin Music, but they don't really do a lot of online stuff.



i really like the 12 fret also. on all points they score highly imo. i just wish they'd hire more guys in the repair dept. their turn around times can only be appreciated by geologists.


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## 59burst (May 27, 2010)

cheezyridr said:


> their turn around times can only be appreciated by geologists.


:smiley-faces-75:

Great turn of a phrase!


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

59burst said:


> I think Canada has a distributor between manufacturers like Gibson and retailers ... is that correct? That probably adds to the cost here.


Depending on the company sometimes it adds quite a lot. Back when I worked at Mothers Music there were some items where our cost on them was higher than US retail. Considering the dollar was about even at that point it was pretty much impossible to explain that to customers. It also adds a lot of time to orders.


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## 59burst (May 27, 2010)

kat_ said:


> Depending on the company sometimes it adds quite a lot. Back when I worked at Mothers Music there were some items where our cost on them was higher than US retail. Considering the dollar was about even at that point it was pretty much impossible to explain that to customers. It also adds a lot of time to orders.


Egad. That, to me, sounds like an out-of-date system. I wonder what is the justification, in this day and age? 

Has anyone ordered from Carvin? Since they are made in the USA, there should be no duties, right? Just HST?


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Just to play devil's advocate... I'm not condoning this form of customer service, just providing an inside scoop as to why things are the way they are in the Canadian market (in my limited experience working in retail). I used to work in a decent position within a music store dealing with receiving and processing stock. I knew the cost of each item and even paid invoices for the store. Here are some reasons why Canadian music stores are the way they are...
*
"They don't sell what I want and can't/won't special order it."
*You'd be amazed at the amount of music gear items there are in the world. No matter how big you are, you just can't offer all of them to your customers. Some stores get exclusive distribution rights so no one else can sell that particular brand within certain areas (that can apply to online stores as well). Most distributors require minimum purchases in order to get a dealer's discount and no one distributor carries everything. So, you end up having to meet order quotas for multiple distributors. Naturally, the more distributors you deal with, the more quotas you have to meet in order to get dealer pricing. It very quickly gets to the point where the cost outweighs the benefit to offer certain products. Many times, stores end up with a ton of stock they don't even want because they had to order extra in order to meet the quota. Most stores stick to dealing with a handful of distributors, which greatly limits their selection.

*"Special orders take forever."*
That's because they can't just pick up and order single items for a customer, they have to meet that minimum order requirement from their distributor. So they either wait until they need enough items to make it worth their while (which can take months for some stores/distributors), or they lose money on the sale. You might get lucky and special order something close to when they are going to place an order anyways, but don't get your hopes up.

*"They carry what I want, but never have it in stock."*
Having items in stock costs a small fortune. Not just the up front cost of ordering and having them shipped to the store, but rent is paid by the square foot and music gear takes up a LOT of space. In order to keep prices competitive, most of that gear is sold for very little profit (sometimes even at a loss). Canadian stores pay the same thing American stores do for their stock, only they have to deal with the exchange rate and shipping costs 2-3 times as much. If you can find an online item in Canada at a price comparable to what you see in the US, they are likely not making much of a profit by selling it to you, especially if they offer free shipping.

*"They don't respond to e-mails."*
Responding to e-mails and online inquiries takes up a lot of time and rarely turns into an actual sale. I would bet the tire kickers outweigh potential buyers by a factor of 100 to 1. Most of the time, there just isn't enough time in the day to deal with all the e-mail inquiries. For any business with a storefront, the priority will always go to people who walk into the store, then phone calls, and e-mails last. I would hope online stores did better though...

*"Their website sucks."*
No argument there! However, unless things have changed drastically since I was working in the business, I will reiterate that if they are selling large items at competitive prices and offering free shipping, they aren't really making money through their website anyways. Their website sucks and they have no interest in improving it because it would require a big investment with very little return.

*"Crappy market"*
The main reason Canadian stores just can't keep up with their competition in the US is that the Canadian market is miniscule! 35 million people in Canada vs 10 times that in the US. It is much easier for US stores to meet their quotas with distributors. Thus, they are able to offer a far greater selection (using more distributors) with better prices (larger orders mean better discounts) while still turning a decent profit. So, you have half the Canadian customers buying their stuff from the US to save money and virtually no one from the states buying from Canada. The market just sucks and no matter how much they improve their websites and/or customer service, they will never be able to compete with their bigger brothers in the US.

Now, for me to vent a little on the topic of the thread... I always try to support Canadian stores first but they either never carry what I want, don't have it in stock (and take forever to special order it), or they have bad customer service and don't respond to my inquiries. There's also nothing more annoying than going to a local store and getting bert-stares from clueless salesmen who have no idea what I'm talking about or them asking the inevitable question, "Why would you want that? You should just get this completely unrelated item!" Drives me nuts, so I mostly end up ordering my stuff online (Canadian if I can).


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## newfmp3 (Feb 6, 2010)

nkjanssen said:


> As far as online dealers within Canada, I've had great experiences with 12th Fret, Capsule, Folkway, Electric Mojo, Quest Musique, Moog Audio and a few others I'm forgetting. As far as Wildwood in the U.S., I find their prices extremely high and they won't move on anything. I prefer Dave's Guitars in LaCrosse, Wisconsin. Actually, I prefer Austin Vintage Guitars and South Austin Music, but they don't really do a lot of online stuff.


I have had great deals from Wildwood. Just gotta be nice and realistic. They and Willcutt for that matter seem to be able to move on Fenders more so then anyone in Canada. Trying to get a deal on a Fender in Canada is like pulling teeth.


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

What jbealsmusic is saying is pretty correct.

I don't think there is as much a problem in major centers. That is if you are looking for mainstream items.

Special orders can be an issue when items are built on a limited basis. Smaller store just can't compete. Larger stores, like L&M have done alright by me for the simple reason that I bought what I could afford and was available for the masses. I waited a week to get the cherry color for my SGJ. Honestly, every 2014 SGJ in the store played well for me. That was the easiest guitar set up I ever did.

I had a friend wait a year and a half back in the '80's for a custom ordered Gibson 345 in black with chrome hardware. They don't make those every day.

It seems like every L&M has a mix of higher end guitars hanging on the wall or hidden in the back. I found that you need a good salesperson who listens and understands what you want. He has helped me on getting the trade in value I was after and got me the guitars and amps I wanted for the price I wanted to pay. I deal with no one else. He tells me that he does not get commission. Too bad, I think his work ethic deserves it. When I needed a good used Canadian made LP Gibson case, he walked into the backroom and handed it to me for $25. I then asked for a Fender Tele case. He came out with a nice TSA case with no key and needed the one strap at the end re-glued. $25. I can't ask for better service from someone who doesn't get commission. I know for a fact that I won't get that kind of service from anyone else in that store. He also got me into an 18 month old Maz 18R combo for $1000 when I was looking for something exciting to replace all the Fenders and Marshalls that got away in the past. That amp listed for $2395 with a potential 8 month wait to have it built.

I know it's hard to get the ideal thing you want sometimes, but it takes a good network to get these things in Canada at the price you can live with. I have spent the countless hours in the Guitar Center shops over the river. The service seems good, but every item they handed me was flawed in one way or another. I walked out with nothing, every time.

Most of my higher end items are bought used now; and I choose to live with the perceived defects. I resolve them later for the least possible cost, or use it as a stepping stone to learn about the item. Then step up at a later date when all the moons align.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i call bs on the population thing. everyone says that but it's no excuse. toronto's population density exceeds that of all but one american city. i'm no sales guy but it sure seems logical to me that pop density would be a more important factor than population itself. it's close to the border. it has a large market for this sort of thing. everybody and their brother plays guitar in this town.
it's physically easier/shorter for gibson or fender to send merch here than say, portland oregon, or portland maine. per capita i would bet actual money that we buy more guitars here than either, or both combined. it's not like there's some customs guy in a dusty depot somewhere looking at every guitar before it ships. that stuff goes to bonded warehouses and is delivered completely untouched by customs in any way shape or form. there is more going on here than meets the eye. i don't know if brokerage fees from ups are the same to businesses as they are to joe avg, but that could be a factor for some items. but there again, i don't understand the lack of gov't protection from this sort of racketeering.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

cheezyridr said:


> i call bs on the population thing. everyone says that but it's no excuse. toronto's population density exceeds that of all but one american city. i'm no sales guy but it sure seems logical to me that pop density would be a more important factor than population itself.


You're right, population alone isn't the issue. It is a combination of the lower population, the number of people who prefer to order from the states (for better prices), the effort to have competitive prices in spite of higher shipping costs, exchange rates, distributor quotas, etc. It just costs a Canadian store far more for an item than any store in the US (unless it is manufactured and distributed in Canada).



> it's close to the border. it has a large market for this sort of thing. everybody and their brother plays guitar in this town.
> it's physically easier/shorter for gibson or fender to send merch here than say, portland oregon, or portland maine. per capita i would bet actual money that we buy more guitars here than either, or both combined. it's not like there's some customs guy in a dusty depot somewhere looking at every guitar before it ships. that stuff goes to bonded warehouses and is delivered completely untouched by customs in any way shape or form. there is more going on here than meets the eye. i don't know if brokerage fees from ups are the same to businesses as they are to joe avg, but that could be a factor for some items. but there again, i don't understand the lack of gov't protection from this sort of racketeering.


The fact that it's close to the border has no positive impact on the shipping/brokerage costs. In fact, it's a negative because far more people are willing to order from the states and pick up their items at the border to save on brokerage. I don't know if it is different now, but our store was literally a 45 minute drive from the border and we paid a fortune in shipping/brokerage on anything we ordered from the states. On occasion, we could convince the distributor to eat the brokerage fees for us, but that was rare.

As for the Carvin question, yes they still charge duty. The difference is that it is already worked into their shipping price. You will only have to pay the taxes when you get it.


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## 59burst (May 27, 2010)

I was under the impression that stuff made in USA or Mexico was somehow exempt from duties because of NAFTA or something, but I guess I was incorrect!


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Guys/gals...it isn't just guitars. Anyone who goes 'down south' will tell you how cheap stuff is. Beer is still $1 each at the liquor stores, yet it is over $2 each here. 50 g of pipe tobacco is often $5 or $6, yet it is $30 here. It isn't just cheap vice either. Everything is cheaper. They do say a lot has to do with population density and transportation costs...we all know how expensive gasoline is and now, throw in the exchange rate.

the absolute best thing is to know what you want, be patient and buy it used in 'near new' condition. The system is jamming us against the wall and that's the only way to beat it.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

You are correct. There are no duties. It is the extra shipping, brokerage and exchange rate that make many guitars 20-30% more in Canada than the USA.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Steadfastly said:


> You are correct. There are no duties. It is the extra shipping, brokerage and exchange rate that make many guitars 20-30% more in Canada than the USA.


i'm a doubting thomas. look at the price of a used motorcycle here, and then one in md or pa. big diff in price there vs. here. none,_ not even one_ of those factors accounts for their price difference. i can name other goods as well, but you see what i mean. the real reason prices are so high here is because all of us keep paying them. there is no justification for the brokerage fees ups charges on what they do ship. yet your gov't does nothing. the exchange rate between america never gets very high anymore, and shipping costs come out alot more equal when you consider that ALL items shipped by ups, fed ex, etc. go to a distribution hub first, and then off to their destination from that point. packages not going that far by air end up traveling many times the distance necc. if you ship fed ex, for example, no matter where you send it, it goes to kentucky (i think it's in kentucky) first.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Well, it's just not officially 'duty'. I am with you though, your point is that there are extra fees tacked on there for no reason. I feel like governments are just in the positions for the great pay and pensions/perks and to make connections for their business careers after their political careers. The days of people aspiring to become a leader to change things for the better are long gone, if they ever actually were.

Example: oil. Everyone pays the 'world price'. So, for cars, we should at least get the USA price plus exchange and THAT's IT. Transportation/delivery? Forget it. It is their product - everyone must get their product to market. We don't pay $1 for a head of lettuce plus shipping.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

kat_ said:


> Depending on the company sometimes it adds quite a lot. Back when I worked at Mothers Music there were some items where our cost on them was higher than US retail. Considering the dollar was about even at that point it was pretty much impossible to explain that to customers. It also adds a lot of time to orders.


He speaks the truth!

In my observation, the distributor level in Canada adds cost, has poor inventory on many items and brings orders in from manufacturer's on an infrequent basis, imposes minimum order sizes, often don't seem to be interested in doing business, and very much have control of the retail market in Canada.

Then take L&M, whose owners I understand also own Yorkville Sound which is a Canadian distributor of many noteable products (eg Gibson). So if mom and pop shop want to sell Gibson, then shared Yorkville/L&M ownership gets a cut of mom and pop's business. This all the while L&M drives retail prices down to compete against US retailers, while shared Yorkville/L&M ownership seemingly enjoys wider profit margins (on products that Yorkville represents) than mom and pop have access to.

Musical instrument retail sales in Canada seems to be a losing endeavour.

So if mom and pop shop cant seem to please you, maybe they are doing the best they can in an industry stacked against them.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> i'm a doubting thomas. look at the price of a used motorcycle here, and then one in md or pa. big diff in price there vs. here. none,_ not even one_ of those factors accounts for their price difference. i can name other goods as well, but you see what i mean. the real reason prices are so high here is because all of us keep paying them. there is no justification for the brokerage fees ups charges on what they do ship. yet your gov't does nothing. the exchange rate between america never gets very high anymore, and shipping costs come out alot more equal when you consider that ALL items shipped by ups, fed ex, etc. go to a distribution hub first, and then off to their destination from that point. packages not going that far by air end up traveling many times the distance necc. if you ship fed ex, for example, no matter where you send it, it goes to kentucky (i think it's in kentucky) first.


I was speaking about guitars, not motorcycles. There are likely more motorcycles in Miami or L.A. than there are in all of Canada. The weather makes motorcycles a year round mode of transport there and volume plays a huge part in prices.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> You are correct. There are no duties. It is the extra shipping, brokerage and exchange rate that make many guitars 20-30% more in Canada than the USA.


I think that's most of it, but I don't think its all of it.
I think theres a certain % of markup that gets applied simply because Canadians are used to paying higher prices.

- - - Updated - - -



Steadfastly said:


> I was speaking about guitars, not motorcycles. There are likely more motorcycles in Miami or L.A. than there are in all of Canada. The weather makes motorcycles a year round mode of transport there and volume plays a huge part in prices.


Nah,if that were the case, vehicles in California, which has different standards for emissions etc would cost as much or more than those in Canada.
And theres lots of examples where even vehicles produced in Canada, get shipped to the US and cost less than those sold here....in the case of things like Seadoo's etc they aren't even any different than the US sold model.
http://www.thestar.com/business/2007/10/16/dont_sell_to_canadians_us_bombardier_dealer_told.html

sorry to burst your bubble, but not all business practices are ethical.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Diablo said:


> I think theres a certain % of markup that gets applied simply because Canadians are used to paying higher prices.


I was looking to buy a workstation from Dell and noticed that the identical system in Canada was $700 cheaper in the US. I called Dell to a ask for their justification in the extra cost... the sales person replies "well everything costs more in Canada"... Dell didn't get the order.


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## 59burst (May 27, 2010)

dradlin said:


> I was looking to buy a workstation from Dell and noticed that the identical system in Canada was $700 cheaper in the US. I called Dell to a ask for their justification in the extra cost... the sales person replies "well everything costs more in Canada"... Dell didn't get the order.


Given that Dells are made in Asia, I suspect part of that difference, perhaps all of it, is government imposed tariffs/taxes, no?


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

59burst said:


> Given that Dells are made in Asia, I suspect part of that difference, perhaps all of it, is government imposed tariffs/taxes, no?


I'm thinking no, at least not anywhere near that level of disparity.

Consider, over the last decade L&M prices have lowered to be competitive with major US retailer and that applies to MIA, MIM, MIK, MIJ, MIC products. There is no price disparity tied to place of manufacture (due to tariffs or otherwise).


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## 59burst (May 27, 2010)

I was dubious, so I checked L&M and MF for prices on a Gibson Les Paul Custom. L&M: $4,299. MF: $3,999. Spot on basically, given the exchange right. Then, I thought, let's check an import. Ibanez Jem 7V ... L&M $3,099.95, and MF: $2,999.99. 

I stand corrected!


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## stratman89 (Oct 13, 2008)

newfmp3 said:


> Comparison. I emailed Wildwood tonight, same guitar that's at the guitar shop, within minutes I got a response, we are back and forth with him answering everything I asked...I got pics, heck I even got a video. Took less then 20mins to get a deal.


I hear you.

I bought a CS '60 Strat and a '52 RI 'Thin Skin' Tele from Wildwood and can't say enough good things about the service and transaction. Actually all my guitar buying other than local has been in the USA.


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

I have been living in Canada exactly 13 years. During all of that time, I have not bought a guitar from the U.S.!


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

rhh7 said:


> I have been living in Canada exactly 13 years. During all of that time, I have not bought a guitar from the U.S.!


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## newfmp3 (Feb 6, 2010)

NGD.


more dealer pics. Will not get into details here as it is not topic related but there was a happy ending...

http://www.theguitarshop.ca/fender-custom-shop-custom-deluxe-sn-8526/


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## ampjunkie (Jul 30, 2009)

Hey Fretboard -- thanks for the info on the PRS Archon ... will take a look.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

59burst said:


> I was dubious, so I checked L&M and MF for prices on a Gibson Les Paul Custom. L&M: $4,299. MF: $3,999. Spot on basically, given the exchange right. Then, I thought, let's check an import. Ibanez Jem 7V ... L&M $3,099.95, and MF: $2,999.99.
> 
> I stand corrected!


One thing is generally different from MF and L & M is that MF will dicker but usually L & M won't. Getting another 15% off is not that difficult at MF. I don't think that is possible at L & M.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> One thing is generally different from MF and L & M is that MF will dicker but usually L & M won't. Getting another 15% off is not that difficult at MF.


Cool...you should tell us how many times you have achieved a lower price through MF just so we know of your experience first hand.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

____________________


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## mario (Feb 18, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> One thing is generally different from MF and L & M is that MF will dicker but usually L & M won't. Getting another 15% off is not that difficult at MF. I don't think that is possible at L & M.


That sounds amazing. I am always looking for a great deal. How do you dicker with MF? Please enlighten myself and others how to go about it.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Call them and ask them what kind of discount they are offering on the piece of gear you want to buy. 

Also, during the year they offer 5, 10 & 15% discounts of gear at certain price points. It is usually 5% at $299.00, 10% at $499.00 and 15% at $699.00 if memory serves me correctly. I have heard accounts where guys have got 20% although that would likely be rare.


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## mario (Feb 18, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> Call them and ask them what kind of discount they are offering on the piece of gear you want to buy.
> 
> Also, during the year they offer 5, 10 & 15% discounts of gear at certain price points. It is usually 5% at $299.00, 10% at $499.00 and 15% at $699.00 if memory serves me correctly. I have heard accounts where guys have got 20% although that would likely be rare.


Great....thanks for the info! So have you personally done this?


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## 59burst (May 27, 2010)

mario said:


> Great....thanks for the info! So have you personally done this?


I have done this when I lived in the US. It's no big deal. Dealers sometimes can only show a MAP (for example) but can sell for less, so it never hurts to ask.


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## TeleToons (Aug 13, 2014)

We had a number of music shops in town, all mom and pop. Ponjetti's just closed a few months back. Same with Payne's. Absolute and Mountain are still here though. I deal with Mountain Music all the time. Pay more than Long and Mcquade down the road in Burlington. But I have gotten to know the guys, can drop in any time and play whatever I want. Have taken new guitars and amps home for a few days to try out, no questions or hassles if I didn't decide on keeping them. The guys at L&M are pretty decent too, bought the wife's Roland FP7-F there because Mountain didn't carry them.

One day, all the small stores will be gone. Being an old fart, I will sadly miss them. No way I am going to import a guitar that I have not seen and tried out, so shopping online for them is just silly for me. What does kill me is shipping on stuff like parts. Try buying and Edcor amp and have it shipped. Better off buying a Hammond at twice the price, works out the same.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

mario said:


> Great....thanks for the info! So have you personally done this?


Not yet. I was going to do it with my Dean Boca but I got a better deal off of eBay that time.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Hmmmm, are we back in the school yard again?

Seems like the last time I saw such targeting of one individual was in grade school.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Seems like the last time I saw such targeting of one individual was in grade school.


Seems like the last time I saw one individual talking about things on the internet like they were his own personal experiences was right here, and it was the same guy. *Perhaps* people find it irritating.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> Seems like the last time I saw one individual talking about things on the internet like they were his own personal experiences was right here, and it was the same guy. *Perhaps* people find it irritating.


And perhaps you have a personal hate on for a guy because he's a JW?

If he says it's nice out, we can pretty much count on you and one or two others calling him out on it.

It seems pretty obvious to me, but if that's the kind of site you want, have at it.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> And perhaps you have a personal hate on for a guy because he's a JW?
> 
> If he says it's nice out, we can pretty much count on you and one or two others calling him out on it.
> 
> It seems pretty obvious to me, but if that's the kind of site you want, have at it.


Well, you're wrong but you aren't one to change your mind.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> Well, you're wrong but you aren't one to change your mind.



Why change when you're right?

Sorry dude, but I see right through you.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Sorry dude, but I see right through you.


No you don't. You're wrong and you are so hard-headed that you just proved me right.

Steadfastly wouldn't say "it's nice out", he'd tell you how you make it nice out as if he'd done it before.

It's odd how you can say that you see right through me and you are blind to his bs. Oh well...that's the closed mind that you have chosen, "have at it". 



Milkman said:


> Why change when you're right?


...and that's about how you approach everything.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> No you don't. You're wrong and you are so hard-headed that you just proved me right.
> 
> Steadfastly wouldn't say "it's nice out", he'd tell you how you make it nice out as if he'd done it before.
> 
> ...


You're acting like a schoolyard bully.

I'm someone who doesn't stand by and watch.

Suck it up buttercup.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> You're acting like a schoolyard bully.
> 
> I'm someone who doesn't stand by and watch.
> 
> Suck it up buttercup.


Wow.

Absolutely unreal.

If I was bullying him, I would remind him that JWs are not supposed to join online forums and socialize with non-JWs. Then I would constantly remind him about other ways that he is a hypocrite. But I don't. I just happen to comment on about one tenth of his ridiculous posts. 

He's an expert on anything and you are always 100% right. You two should get a cottage together. He's your Chester and you are his Spike.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> Wow.
> 
> Absolutely unreal.
> 
> ...


Wrong again. This is as real as it gets on the internet. 

He's no more full crap than anyone else here, but anything he posts, you and one or two others jump on it. It's bad enough when this stuff is in the "misc" section. People expect a certain amount of flaming and trolling there.
But in the Guitar section, I would hope for better manners.

It's actually a bit pathetic, but I've said my piece.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Wrong again.


It can't be 'wrong again' unless there was a wrong in the first place.

I know that you think you can't possibly be wrong but you are.










...and in this case you aren't just wrong, you are being a dick.

Now, I've said mine.


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## mario (Feb 18, 2006)

Milkman said:


> You're acting like a schoolyard bully.
> 
> I'm someone who doesn't stand by and watch.
> 
> Suck it up buttercup.


I seem to recall you challenging (IMHO) a highly respected forum member from Western Canada to fly to Brantford, Ontario for a fist fight over a forum thread a couple of years ago.

Do you remember that thread?


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Although cars cost more in Canada than the U.S., cars cost way more in Europe, even when they're made there (I had major sticker shock when I visited the BMW dealership in Munich after touring the museum). In addition to gov't tariffs, distribution costs etc., a large portion of pricing is related to what the market will bear. Because the U.S. market is so large, manufacturers (not just cars or guitars) cannot afford to not play in it, so they shave their margins & make up for it on volume. Any country with a fraction of the population/economic clout of the U.S. (i.e. almost anywhere else in the world) will not get the same kind of volume discount.


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

Roryfan said:


> Although cars cost more in Canada than the U.S., cars cost way more in Europe, even when they're made there (I had major sticker shock when I visited the BMW dealership in Munich after touring the museum). In addition to gov't tariffs, distribution costs etc., a large portion of pricing is related to what the market will bear. Because the U.S. market is so large, manufacturers (not just cars or guitars) cannot afford to not play in it, so they shave their margins & make up for it on volume. Any country with a fraction of the population/economic clout of the U.S. (i.e. almost anywhere else in the world) will not get the same kind of volume discount.


Well said, and bonus points for getting the thread back on topic.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Roryfan said:


> Although cars cost more in Canada than the U.S., cars cost way more in Europe, even when they're made there (I had major sticker shock when I visited the BMW dealership in Munich after touring the museum). In addition to gov't tariffs, distribution costs etc., a large portion of pricing is related to what the market will bear. Because the U.S. market is so large, manufacturers (not just cars or guitars) cannot afford to not play in it, so they shave their margins & make up for it on volume. Any country with a fraction of the population/economic clout of the U.S. (i.e. almost anywhere else in the world) will not get the same kind of volume discount.


Volume discount is valid on just about anything that is bought and sold today. Many of the auto manufacturers are pushing "employee pricing" at this time. They may show you the invoiced amount but never the volume discount that each dealer gets. That's why each dealer points you to their dealership rather than the manufacturer pointing you to any dealership selling their cars. The greater the volume, the greater the discount that dealership gets and the more money they make. It's all part of the marketing scheme.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

mario said:


> I seem to recall you challenging (IMHO) a highly respected forum member from Western Canada to fly to Brantford, Ontario for a fist fight over a forum thread a couple of years ago.
> 
> Do you remember that thread?


LOL. Really. You really take a post made as a joke as a serious challenge?

Please.

As I recall, not everyone "highly respects" that member.

The truth is though, most internet tough guys and bullies are decidedly different when you meet face to face.

It's like being in a car. People are much more aggressive when they're protected by a metal shell or anonymity.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________________


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Holy fvck it's another drama/pissing-match filled with outrage and bluster... inspired by and starring the milkman... I love this stuff but dam I need that popcorn eating gif right now.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________________


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

nkjanssen said:


> Aren't jokes supposed to be funny?


excellent...


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## newfmp3 (Feb 6, 2010)

thanks for train wrecking the thread...


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

At least mg.org trainwrecks are hilarious for readers and members alike.

Fact: big stores are taking over, and we lose on price compared to the states. This is an uphill battle with no clear answers.


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## Intrepid (Oct 9, 2008)

Okay. Trying to figure this thread out. Apparently someone is a bully or there are a group of Bullies after someone in this Thread? Apparently, someone called out the Bullies, but now the person who called them out is being accused of being a Bully? Somehow there is a "know it all" directly or indirectly involved in all of this. Plus there appears to be something called JW as well. I haven't figured out what JW even is or what part it plays in this saga. Still trying to figure out why its so hard to buy a guitar in Canada but I don't think it is because we have Bullies or a Know it all or a JW. It must be some other factor and it would be nice to get back on track. It's alright to flame or bully me, but enough is enough. No?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Intrepid said:


> Okay. Trying to figure this thread out. Apparently someone is a bully or there are a group of Bullies after someone in this Thread? Apparently, someone called out the Bullies, but now the person who called them out is being accused of being a Bully? Somehow there is a "know it all" directly or indirectly involved in all of this. Plus there appears to be something called JW as well. I haven't figured out what JW even is or what part it plays in this saga. Still trying to figure out why its so hard to buy a guitar in Canada but I don't think it is because we have Bullies or a Know it all or a JW. It must be some other factor and it would be nice to get back on track. It's alright to flame or bully me, but enough is enough. No?


Intrepid: JW stands for Jehovah's Witness. We are the ones that come to your home offering free home Bible studies. Persecution is not new for us and we expect it as it comes in all forms. We just ignore it when possible, like on a forum like this. 

I agree, it's too bad when threads like this get derailed. Perhaps we can get back on track now. I think the subject was about why buying a guitar in Canada is so hard. It's not hard; it's just hard getting the pricing and service that our neighbour to the south gets.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

We seem to have limitations on models too, as mentioned in the OP.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> Intrepid: JW stands for Jehovah's Witness. We are the ones that come to your home offering free home Bible studies. Persecution is not new for us and we expect it as it comes in all forms. We just ignore it when possible, like on a forum like this.


Oh...NOW he's been *persecuted*!!! (From Monty Python's 'The Quest For The Holy Grail': *"Help! Help! I'm being repressed!!"*)


Steadfastly said:


> I agree, it's too bad when threads like this get derailed. Perhaps we can get back on track now. I think the subject was about why buying a guitar in Canada is so hard. It's not hard; it's just hard getting the pricing and service that our neighbour to the south gets.


AAAAnnnd...if you would just stick to your own experience when answering theads OR (for example) say "apparently MF will deal on prices from what I have seen people post regarding discounts" or something similar.

The only 'persecution' you have ever suffered here is because you BS to record proportions.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

sulphur said:


> We seem to have limitations on models too, as mentioned in the OP.


So true. Again that is likely due to the smaller market. I tried to buy my Dean Boca here in St. Catharines. The dealer said he could bring one in. The cost was almost double. That's why I went to eBay and went across the river and picked it up at UPS.


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## buzzy (May 28, 2011)

sulphur said:


> We seem to have limitations on models too, as mentioned in the OP.


As an example, on the Ibanez website for the US, there are several models that don't appear on the site for Canada. A couple of years ago, I enquired at a local shop about having them bring in a guitar for me that was on the American version of the site but not on the Canadian site and they said the guitar wasn't for sale in Canada. They suggested with a smile and a wink that I could go for a little vacation to the US and pick it up myself.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

norman the mormon
hears the doorbell ring
inside, they're not answering.
peering thru the window, to his surprise
the door flies open come inside!

i am jason
the free manson
what you're sellin, i do not need
mr patrick, orthodox catholic
is more likely in your league


at that very moment mr softee rings his bells
ding a ling ding a ling
quickly there after
mr choco taco delight
reclining on his brand new mountain bike

now watch you most closely
for here the plot does twist
enter simon, the super-scientologist

i'm opining sailing simon
is you stupid or is you just high?
mother hubbard got me covered, like
sara lee on her cherry pie!
norman says to simon "hey- if there are really aliens..
i would think that l. ron hubbard would have to be one of them"

oh my lord! oh my lord
oh my oh my!

imagine a jaunty harmonica solo right here

the pie man passes by 
on his way to the fair 
and he says 
"reason! won't you 
put your blue jeans on
reason! won't you 
put your blue jeans on"

at that very moment
mr softee rings his bells 
so before simon could bring his crushing blow
norman raises his hands
oh no! oh no!

simon says "hey! we ain't even finished this..."
norman says yes we have! 
here come the witnesses!

"reason! won't you 
put your blue jeans on
reason! won't you 
put your blue jeans on"


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

^^^^^No wonder it's so hard to buy a guitar in Canada if you have to learn that first.:smile-new:


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## Guest (Aug 17, 2014)

um .. never mind.


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## DrumBob (Aug 17, 2014)

It all comes down to customer service, and it varies from place to place. I hope it's not a Canadian thing, but as an American, I'm happy to hear you were taken care of by American dealers.

Last year, I wanted a Les Paul, so I looked online and found six LPs on Guitar Center's Used Gear website. I called each store and spoke to salespeople, all of whom promised to send additional photos. Only two did. I then called Sam Ash's Brooklyn. NY store, got the manager on the phone, he sent me six pics of a great looking LP Standard Premium Plus within 10 minutes, and we cut a deal. He was great to work with, and I have called him again.

I think you're just calling the wrong stores. Always ask to speak to the owner. The salespeople might be less than intelligent.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

To me it comes down to 2 simple things, price and availability. Customer service should be a given but I realize it's not. I certainly don't mind paying a bit more to buy in Canada, and will almost always check around here first. I completely hate being raped though.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

DrumBob said:


> It all comes down to customer service, and it varies from place to place. I hope it's not a Canadian thing, but as an American, I'm happy to hear you were taken care of by American dealers.
> 
> Last year, I wanted a Les Paul, so I looked online and found six LPs on Guitar Center's Used Gear website. I called each store and spoke to salespeople, all of whom promised to send additional photos. Only two did. I then called Sam Ash's Brooklyn. NY store, got the manager on the phone, he sent me six pics of a great looking LP Standard Premium Plus within 10 minutes, and we cut a deal. He was great to work with, and I have called him again.
> 
> _*I think you're just calling the wrong stores. Always ask to speak to the owner. The salespeople might be less than intelligent.*_


While it's not always possible to speak to the owner, at least speak to the highest person in command that is available.



davetcan said:


> To me it comes down to 2 simple things, price and availability. Customer service should be a given but I realize it's not. I certainly don't mind paying a bit more to buy in Canada, and will almost always check around here first. *I*_* completely hate being raped though.*_


Don't we all! I don't think it's a question of being "raped" with Canadian pricing, though, it's the cost of getting the equipment here plus the smaller market. For example, most Godin products are about 10% cheaper or a little more considering the exchange rate, here in Canada. The reason is that they don't have to cross the border so shipping, brokerage and any other cross-border fees are eliminated.

It it's price that determines what you buy, why not look at the Canadian "G" before the buy the USA "G".


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> While it's not always possible to speak to the owner, at least speak to the highest person in command that is available.


Usually the owner isn't the right person to speak to, unless it's a very small store. When I worked in a music store only telemarketers asked to speak to the owner, and I usually replied that the owner was in another city, had never been involved in day-to-day operations, and was dying from cancer. At that particular store the assistant manager was the best person for negotiating on price - high enough to be able to discount merchandise but low enough to care more about his own sales than the store's overall profitability. And at that store I was usually the best person to talk to for customer service because I was the absolute lowest minion and therefore had the time to care. 
If a customer knows a store well enough to know who to talk to then the employees will also know that customer enough to want to help.


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## DrumBob (Aug 17, 2014)

I have always had access to store owners. other than with Sam Ash and Guitar Center. I shop all the time at Alto Music in Middletown, NY, the largest indpendent music store on the East Coast, and know the owner well.

If you can't get with an owner, talk to the store manager. You guys don't have Guitar Center in Canada, but they're well known down here for having clueless salespeople who can't make deals. In those cases, I always get with THE store manager, the head dude in charge.


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## bileshake (Aug 18, 2014)

Milkman said:


> I shop at PA Music in Brantford, On.
> 
> You may not get the same deals I do, having dealt there for more than twenty years.
> 
> I'm in the states almost every week. I know the price deltas.


These guys are right on, I've played all kinds of stuff and they are cool cause they know I do buy stuff. They have a very helpful guy on staff that explained all the different les paul models to me and brought me each one in the line up. Helped narrow down the mass confusion of finding the right one. 2013 Classic vintage burst.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I shop at PA Music in Brantford, On.


Great store!

When did they change the name of store? ...Very wise decision as they will (now) not be confused with L.A. Music in Oakville...Thank goodness.

Cheers

Dave


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

Roryfan said:


> Although cars cost more in Canada than the U.S., cars cost way more in Europe, even when they're made there (I had major sticker shock when I visited the BMW dealership in Munich after touring the museum). In addition to gov't tariffs, distribution costs etc., a large portion of pricing is related to what the market will bear. Because the U.S. market is so large, manufacturers (not just cars or guitars) cannot afford to not play in it, so they shave their margins & make up for it on volume. Any country with a fraction of the population/economic clout of the U.S. (i.e. almost anywhere else in the world) will not get the same kind of volume discount.


True, but don't let the market-size factor diminish the effect of the gov't tariffs you mentioned. In most European countries these are higher than tariff impacts here, and in some of them tariffs and taxes are the largest contributor to the cost of the car. However we sure don't get off lightly... I was in a New Hampshire BMW dealer last week where a new X5 had a factory sticker price of ~$55K, the same vehicle here would likely be stickered close to ~$75K (I didn't check that, but I own an older one). New Hampshire's sales tax much lower too... net difference would buy another nice small car.

However, to be daring by discussing the original topic of this thread, tariffs are NOT a significant factor in American guitars shipped into Canada. Nor should shipping or brokerage costs be assumed to explain the much-higher prices we see on many guitar lines - these are minor factors on anything but single-item shipments. So what's left are lack of serious competition at both wholesale and retail levels, ultra-conservative retailers who don't demand fuller lines from the distributors because they don't intend to carry them in inventory anyway, and customers who are all too willing to accept higher prices and "we can order it for you" retailing.

The biggest part of the problem is the last one.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

boyscout said:


> ...and "we can order it for you" retailing.
> 
> The biggest part of the problem is the last one.


To be fair to retailers, as a small business and with the plethora of products and options on the market, they can't be expected to stock the depth of inventory some might demand.

That's where the distributor level in Canada comes in... to stock a greater sample of products and options... but it seems they don't.

The retailer can only be as good as their supply chain can support them.


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## Toogy (Apr 16, 2009)

I'll third PA Music in Brantford, they were great to deal with when I bought my LTD a few years ago, ordered two different models in for me to try out and decide which one I like better. And I'm glad they changed the name to avoid confusion!


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Here is a good article with some perspective from a small retailer.

Why we fired Fender...

http://www.msretailer.com/msr/fired...m_medium=timeline&utm_campaign=social_organic


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Excellent article and succinctly sums things up. Kind of a sad state of affairs though.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Great article and thanks for posting. I looked up the store in question as I wanted to know if they were Canadian or not. They're not:

http://www.larrysmusiccenter.com/oh-music-store/

Canadian stores seem happy to toe the company line dictated by Fender etc. Again probably dictated by relative volume compared to the US etc.




dradlin said:


> Here is a good article with some perspective from a small retailer.
> 
> Why we fired Fender...
> 
> http://www.msretailer.com/msr/fired...m_medium=timeline&utm_campaign=social_organic


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

bagpipe said:


> Canadian stores seem happy to toe the company line dictated by Fender etc.


Many years ago a friend of mine went bankrupt and lost her store, partly as a result of trying to keep up with the orders needed to be a Fender dealer. They had to bring in more than they were selling. There were other problem in that store too, but that was the most expensive one.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Maxer said:


> Excellent article and succinctly sums things up. Kind of a sad state of affairs though.


As conglomerates continue to eat up the mom and pop stores in all retail avenues including the music business, small business owners will find it increasingly difficult not only to call the shots but even to stay in business. This is happening everywhere and music shops are not the only one. Only those in a niche market will continue to prosper. Unfortunately, niche markets have a horrendous habit of being replaced by other niche markets.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

kat_ said:


> Many years ago a friend of mine went bankrupt and lost her store, partly as a result of trying to keep up with the orders needed to be a Fender dealer. They had to bring in more than they were selling. There were other problem in that store too, but that was the most expensive one.


The large, well-stocked, competitively-priced stores in the U.S. where many of us buy our guitars ALSO have to meet significant sales levels to maintain certain dealer classifications with Fender, Gibson, and others. Higher levels, I'd bet, than those imposed on any Canadian dealer (except possibly L&M).

The dealers meet those targets by quietly selling new guitars in/out the back door to "gray market" dealers, many of whom are competent and trustworthy volume-selling dealers with everything to offer but "official" status as dealers of the brands (and associated manufacturer's warranty). It's one of the worst-kept secrets on the planet, and is absolutely known-about and largely ignored by the manufacturers even though they technically don't permit the practice in dealer agreements.

Why? Everybody wins! Manufacturer sells more guitars to fewer dealers, lowering sales costs. Manufacturer sheds warranty responsibility and cost when the guitars move to the gray market. Official dealer and gray market dealer can both sell for less than they otherwise might - due to mfg volume discounts to the official dealer - thereby increasing demand for and sales of mfg's guitars. If the gray market gets shady with deep discounters or unscrupulous operators the manufacturer can step in, point to the dealer agreement, and stop it. But generally customers, dealers, and manufacturer all do better.

AFAIK nobody in Canada does this... they're too busy whining about the stiff dealer agreements.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Intrepid: JW stands for Jehovah's Witness. We are the ones that come to your home offering free home Bible studies. Persecution is not new for us and we expect it as it comes in all forms. We just ignore it when possible, like on a forum like this.


Sorry for the derail, but I can't bite my tongue any longer.

Steadly, I think it's absolutely disgraceful that you would try to play the martyr & attempt to equate an internet forum pi$$ing match to religious persecution. There are scores of people throughout history who actually died for their faith, including JWs who were sent to Nazi concentration camps, and I'm pretty sure they would be appalled at the way your comparison minimizes their suffering.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

dradlin said:


> Here is a good article with some perspective from a small retailer.
> 
> Why we fired Fender...
> 
> http://www.msretailer.com/msr/fired...m_medium=timeline&utm_campaign=social_organic


That's a great article but the Fender Design Experience isn't available to anyone in Canada. Its a USA only promotion.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

I also never asked, or want, anyone selling pretty much anything at my door. Especially not religious propaganda.

Now back to the thread. I've been looking for a few none music related items recently. A new shaver and car mats come to mind. For a Braun shaver Amazon.com lists at $209, Amazon.ca $299. Of course Amazon.com will not ship this item to Canada. Mats were $99 in the US and $199 in Canada, that's a joke.




Roryfan said:


> Sorry for the derail, but I can't bite my tongue any longer.
> 
> Steadly, I think it's absolutely disgraceful that you would try to play the martyr & attempt to equate an internet forum pi$$ing match to religious persecution. There are scores of people throughout history who actually died for their faith, including JWs who were sent to Nazi concentration camps, and I'm pretty sure they would be appalled at the way your comparison minimizes their suffering.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Roryfan said:


> Sorry for the derail, but I can't bite my tongue any longer.
> 
> Steadly, I think it's absolutely disgraceful that you would try to play the martyr & attempt to equate an internet forum pi$$ing match to religious persecution. There are scores of people throughout history who actually died for their faith, including JWs who were sent to Nazi concentration camps, and I'm pretty sure they would be appalled at the way your comparison minimizes their suffering.


I'm glad to know that you are in informed individual and know about the Jehovah's Witnesses that were sent to the concentration camps. About 1000 lost their lives because they would not take up arms against their fellow man. 

What some do not know is they were persecuted starting in 1933 where the Nazi regime started imprisoning them for their faith. All they had to do to get out of prison and the concentration camps was to sign a document stating that they were no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Very few did. Quite a few are in prison at this moment for the very same reason; neutrality. The Bible says at Isaiah 2:2-4 that God's people will not learn war anymore. We take that seriously.

As for me playing the martyr, I did not mean to make it sound like that and if it did to some of the members here, I want to profoundly apologize. Persecution comes in many forms and intensities. I was just stating a fact; no more, no less.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> I'm glad to know that you are in informed individual and know about the Jehovah's Witnesses that were sent to the concentration camps. About 1000 lost their lives because they would not take up arms against their fellow man.
> 
> What some do not know is they were persecuted starting in 1933 where the Nazi regime started imprisoning them for their faith. All they had to do to get out of prison and the concentration camps was to sign a document stating that they were no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Very few did. Quite a few are in prison at this moment for the very same reason; neutrality. The Bible says at Isaiah 2:2-4 that God's people will not learn war anymore. We take that seriously.
> 
> As for me playing the martyr, I did not mean to make it sound like that and if it did to some of the members here, I want to profoundly apologize. Persecution comes in many forms and intensities. I was just stating a fact; no more, no less.


SHUT THE FFFFFFFF UP.

If it were not for the REAL men who did take up arms you'd either have never been born because your ancestors would have been wiped-out or they would be slaves. Another trait of REAL men is that women are their equals. You fear your women so you oppress them.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> I'm glad to know that you are in informed individual and know about the Jehovah's Witnesses that were sent to the concentration camps. About 1000 lost their lives because they would not take up arms against their fellow man.
> 
> Persecution comes in many forms and intensities. I was just stating a fact; no more, no less.


Yes, I do my best to be open-minded & well-informed: I read, I travel (visited Dachau a few yrs. ago), I do not think that watching Entertainment Tonight qualifies as "the news" (sad but true story), I've been the minority in enough situations to understand that everything is relative.

This being said, I am disappointed that you missed the entire point of my previous post. 

Fact: YOU ARE NOT BEING PERSECUTED. 

Having a difference of opinion/forum flame war/internet tough guy stand-off & any resultant butt hurt does not equate to persecution. Not to any level of intensity. The millions of people throughout history who were tortured &/or killed because of their ethnicity, gender, political or religious beliefs are the ones who are truly persecuted. That was the entire point of my post, please do not twist it to suit your means, especially when you are the one that somehow managed to work religion into a discussion about commercial practices of various music retailers.

"La raison et non la passion." - PET


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## bscott (Mar 3, 2008)

To get back on track, try doing guitar and accessories for left handed. Accessories being things like thumb picks. No, you cannot just use a regular, right handed thumb pick.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

bscott said:


> To get back on track, try doing guitar and accessories for left handed. Accessories being things like thumb picks. No, you cannot just use a regular, right handed thumb pick.


lol That reminds me... I remember convincing the owner of the music store where I worked to order a package of left handed thumb picks for just that reason. I worked there for 4 more years after that and to my recollection, we didn't sell a single one. I'm pretty sure they are still there to this day (12 years later).

Many stores won't carry left handed stuff in stock, but they can most likely special order them for you.


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