# Real Kijiji horror story (Tim Bosma found dead)



## georgemg

I've sold a lot of stuff in the past through Kijiji and Craigslist, and never hesitated to have people show up at my house to pick things up. Earlier this week I was shocked to hear that Tim Bosma, a nephew of my wife's uncle, had taken two potential buyers for a test drive of a pick up truck he was selling through Kijiji and hasn't been seen since. While there finally been an arrest made in the case, there is still no sign of Tim. The police are still actively searching for Tim and are looking for any tips that can help solve the case. Anyone with information that could help solve this case are asked to come forth.

http://ontario.kijiji.ca/c-cars-veh...SE-HELP-FIND-TIMOTHY-BOSMA-W0QQAdIdZ483235946

http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/police-have-made-an-arrest-in-the-tim-bosma-investigation-1.1275797

While the story has jaded me in some ways, it has been encouraging to see how helpful people have been in offering their support. We went out this morning to hand out posters and everyone was more than willing to help out by posting them in their business. Still, I would caution anyone selling online to be careful with who they invite to their home.


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## Steadfastly

I see they found one of the men are charged him with theft and confinement. Hopefully, Tim Bosma is still alive and unharmed.


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## bolero

yeah that is crazy, I really hope they find him & he's ok

I work in Hamilton so that is close to home for me too

last week they found an armed robber hiding out on one of my friend's rooftops, in oakville...there's nutbars all over


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## smorgdonkey

Here in Halifax, some teens were arrested for apparently pepper spraying people who were selling jewellery via kijiji to rob them. I haven't followed up on the story so I am sure that something else has come to light since I learned of it Friday.

I wonder if that guy has told them anything yet about Tim Bosma's whereabouts or whether his 'rights' allow him to refrain from commenting.


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## LydianGuitars

That's awful. I hope they find Tim soon.


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## J S Moore

davetcan said:


> Fuck his rights, torture the prick until he tells everything he knows. Families are suffering thanks to this waste of space.
> 
> Not sure if I condone this of course but what the hell are we supposed to do?


In the States they can forgo the Miranda if the public safety is at risk and anything the accused says is still admissible in court. If we don't have something like that here I would be a little surprised. If we don't, then we need it.


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## davetcan

Yes that would be a good thing, not sure if we have it either. Another bit of a bizarre twist late yesterday when the suspect was identified. Not what anyone was expecting at all I would think.

Sorry about my outburst yesterday but the "justice" system is really frustrating me these days. 

There's a guy here in London who's accused of taking a young mentally challenged boy out of the care facility and beating him to death in some nearby woods. Justice system is trying to decide if the the guy is psychotic or extremely intelligent and trying to act as if he is. I honestly don't care either way. he needs to be locked up forever.




J S Moore said:


> In the States they can forgo the Miranda if the public safety is at risk and anything the accused says is still admissible in court. If we don't have something like that here I would be a little surprised. If we don't, then we need it.


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## greco

[h=2]"Tim Bosma: Dellen Millard, suspect in truck owner’s disappearance, *not talking*, lawyer says"[/h]
http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...rs_disappearance_not_talking_lawyer_says.html

This really pi$$es me off !!

The more news clips I read about this, I more angry I get.

@davetcan...I hope this doesn't put your blood pressure through the roof. 
I am with you on your comments...all of them.

Cheers

Dave


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## davetcan

Sickens me.




greco said:


> *"Tim Bosma: Dellen Millard, suspect in truck owner’s disappearance, not talking, lawyer says"*
> 
> 
> http://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2...rs_disappearance_not_talking_lawyer_says.html
> 
> This really pi$$es me off !!
> 
> The more news clips I read about this, I more angry I get.
> 
> @davetcan...I hope this doesn't put your blood pressure through the roof.
> I am with you on your comments...all of them.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


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## Sneaky

Yikes. I know the Millard family (not this "kid" though, he wasn't born yet). My dad flew for Carl Millard a few times back in the 60's to make a few extra bucks on the side, and he kept his small plane in the Millardair hanger in Malton.


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## jimihendrix

I've been following this story closely...

these guys seem to have a lot of info...including pics of the guy and his friend wearing an orange shirt and a red hoodie...just like in the police description...

by the way...the suspect's friend is a suspended london police officer...

this site seems to delve deep into info...they show info before any news reports and police public statements...

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=208367


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## GuitarsCanada

There is something very bizarre about this whole thing


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## shoretyus

GuitarsCanada said:


> There is something very bizarre about this whole thing


What's with the truck in the trailer....


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## hardasmum

GuitarsCanada said:


> There is something very bizarre about this whole thing


Seems like there are easier ways of stealing a car than kidnapping someone. I don't get it.


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## smorgdonkey

Press conference just revealed that human remains have been found. Those remains are believed to be Tim Bosma's remains and evidence shows that they have been burned.


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## guitarman2

My prayers go out to Tim Bosma's family. This is a sad time with this unfortunate end.


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## smorgdonkey

guitarman2 said:


> This is a sad time with this unfortunate end.


Indeed. The horrors that people do to other people - I think that is why I often prefer to associate with animals.


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## GuitarsCanada

What a senseless killing. Just makes no sense at all


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## ezcomes

i just saw the article...my condolences to your family...

it makes you wonder...who IS trustworthy anymore? i went with the guy who test drove my truck, and never once thought something like this could happen to me...but, you just never know...


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## Mooh

What was the point of this crime? The truck? The person? Money? Relationship? History? Random violence? What?

Or is it a "I shot a man in Reno, just to watch him die" sort of thing?

Any way I see it, it's senseless and deranged.

How does the deceased's family get over this?

Peace, Mooh.


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## Diablo

wow....I cant imagine killing someone over a pickup truck. I thought that sort of thing only happened in the US if a carjacking goes awry, not something as premeditated seeming as this. especially when it seems to be perpetrated by someone not particularly desperate for cash. obviously the listing has been taken down, but what could the truck be worth $25k? much less if stolen.


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## Ship of fools

What a sad day that we can have people like this who are willing to kill over a truck, come on how much can a 2007 Dadge Ram be worth $8000-$12000 for a life. Am I missing something in life that I can't see this through, I have not been a perfect angel in my life but I just don't get it how you can snuff someone out and then burn their remains to cover up your crime ( which by the way didn't work did it ) and all this over a pick up truck.
Wouldn't be a bit surprised to hear later that it was because they needed money for drugs.ship ...................................boy this just breaks my heart


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## 10409

I hope this is the final straw for anonymous sites like kijiji and craigslist. It's high time they held their users to some sort of accountability, buyers sellers and browsers alike. This disgusts me beyond measure.


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## davetcan

I'm with you on this one. We have what appears to be a guy who really doesn't need the money, at least not at first glance. I'm almost hoping there's more to it because the senselessness of it is extremely disturbing.

Deepest condolences to the family.




GuitarsCanada said:


> There is something very bizarre about this whole thing


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## Milkman

They have an eye witness, found the truck in the driveway of the suspect's mother, but he's pleading innocent.


Cough (douchebag) cough (spoiled brat) cough (throw away the key).


Yes, yes, I know, innocent until proven guilty.


Man up and admit what you did A-hole.


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## Steadfastly

That poor family must be going through indescribable grief right now. You can't help but feel for them.


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## sulphur

They apparently just laid first degree murder charges on one guy.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/0...365.html?1368557005&ncid=edlinkusaolp00000008

They don't mention another suspect though.

Condolences go out to the family and friends.


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## Accept2

To me it sounds like he was an adreneline junky and just wanted to experience killing someone from the lower class. Sounds like a major tard too..........


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## Intrepid

The word "senseless" seems to be a running theme here. No doubt that any homicide is senseless but there is something about this one that is peculiar. Did they really kill this gentleman for his truck and then stash the truck at the accused's Mother's residence? That doesn't make sense. There must be something more to this than the Police are prepared to reveal at this time. I'm hoping the Police have figured it out (maybe through video and informants) and are simply waiting to arrest further suspects before revealing the apparent motive for this awful killing of a young man. My condolences to the Bosma Family.


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## Hamstrung

Intrepid said:


> The word "senseless" seems to be a running theme here. No doubt that any homicide is senseless but there is something about this one that is peculiar. Did they really kill this gentleman for his truck and then stash the truck at the accused's Mother's residence? That doesn't make sense. There must be something more to this than the Police are prepared to reveal at this time. I'm hoping the Police have figured it out (maybe through video and informants) and are simply waiting to arrest further suspects before revealing the apparent motive for this awful killing of a young man. My condolences to the Bosma Family.


I'm with you on this one. There's a lot that seems to be going unsaid by the authorities in this case. Hopefully it will come to light and those involved get life in a federal "pound me in the ass" prison!


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## davetcan

Just wondering where this came from?



jimihendrix said:


> by the way...the suspect's friend is a suspended london police officer...


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## sambonee

guitarman2 said:


> My prayers go out to Tim Bosma's family. This is a sad time with this unfortunate end.


Yes prayers are all we can do. We have to pray for those sick people who have perpetrated such evil. How evil can some allow themselves to become. So sad.


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## jimihendrix

The link is on this page...as well as many other websites...

http://www.conspiracy-cafe.com/apps/blog/show/26307047


[url]http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2012/07/25/20025206.html
[/URL]


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## Chito

This whole thing doesn't make sense. There must be some twisted motive as to why this thing happened. What a senseless act. 

Condolences to the family.


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## sulphur

The guy that they charged, is an heir to an airline.

I wonder if there is any connection there?

This seems odd for sure.


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## davetcan

I'd already apologized for my outburst. Unfortunately the system that you are so strongly supporting isn't working. I'm open to any other suggestions you may have. Time to stop sitting back on our laurels.



nkjanssen said:


> I realize this is a different topic, but it's honestly a little disheartening how people are so readily willing to completely throw out all the fundamental rights and protections that every modern democratic society is founded on whenever someone is accused of doing something really bad. In just a few short years since 9/11, secret prisons, indefinite confinement and torture seem to have become mainstream ideas in western society. "Disheartening" might not be the word, actually. "Frightening" is probably better.


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## davetcan

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/05/17/vince-li-greyhound-bus-killer_n_1525555.html

http://www.torontosun.com/news/canada/2010/06/14/14388536.html

http://atlantic.ctvnews.ca/man-conv...onald-s-murders-granted-full-parole-1.1059479


Still waiting to hear how you'd improve things Mr. Henman.



nkjanssen said:


> How so?
> 
> Do you figure we should be taking tips from Syria, Sudan, Burma or North Korea?


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## shoretyus

So the police say the vehicle was targeted. Another SUV was also attempted to be stolen as well. The one guy has a warehouse. They have a trailer. 
Steal the vehicle .... trailer it to the warehouse.... load a container and they are gone to probably the middle east.


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## davetcan

At least I have a sense of humour and a decent memory.



nkjanssen said:


> You're the one who suggested we need to change things. And your suggestion was to torture people accused of crimes. And "Mr. Henman"?!
> 
> You're nuts, my friend.


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## Accept2

nkjanssen said:


> I sense some cognitive impairment, actually.



Cmon guys, what did they say about arguing on the internet with reference to the special Olympics?...........


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## Diablo

Bizarre. The trailer the truck was in probably costs near the value of the truck they carjacked.

i have to wonder if there's something deeper here than just robbery.


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## davetcan

How so? 

......


"insane" AND 'stupid", I'm honored 




nkjanssen said:


> I sense some cognitive impairment, actually.


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## Krelf

The illegal export of stolen vehicles out of Canada is very a profitable enterprise. The price that certain classes of vehicles command in many third world countries is obscene. And the chances of getting caught is low, as Border Services rarely examine goods destined for export. They concentrate on what's coming _into_ Canada, rather than what is going out. So long as an export declaration is presented, the container is usually free to be loaded on the ship or train to begin its journey abroad. You'd be surprised how many vehicles they can jam into a shipping container.


Incidently, the export declarations often declare the goods as scrap metal, steel pipes, metal fittings, basically anything that is heavy.


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## loudtubeamps

*Chito* 







*Feedback Score 21 (100%)*


Join DateFeb 2006LocationOttawa, OntarioPosts1,447​

This whole thing doesn't make sense. There must be some twisted motive as to why this thing happened. What a senseless act. 

Condolences to the family.​


As mentioned, something pretty weird about the whole thing.There should be more to story than simply car theft.
Why risk murder charges for the lesser crime of car theft? Just steal the vehicle.................


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## shoretyus

loudtubeamps;
[COLOR=#333333 said:


> As mentioned, something pretty weird about the whole thing.There should be more to story than simply car theft.​[/COLOR]Why risk murder charges for the lesser crime of car theft? Just steal the vehicle.................


Maybe they weren't good at it ?


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## Milkman

I'm sure there's more to it than simple theft. There are infinite possible stories behind this but only one that actually happened.

Thrill? Vendetta? Ransom abduction gone wrong?


Regardless of the motive, if this guy isn't guilty I'm a monkey's uncle. We'll see what the evidence says.

And if he IS guilty, I hope Steadfastly's right and that there IS a hell for him to burn in.

(no disrespect intended Stead)


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## Steadfastly

Milkman said:


> I'm sure there's more to it than simple theft. There are infinite possible stories behind this but only one that actually happened.
> 
> Thrill? Vendetta? Ransom abduction gone wrong?
> 
> 
> Regardless of the motive, if this guy isn't guilty I'm a monkey's uncle. We'll see what the evidence says.
> 
> And if he IS guilty, I hope Steadfastly's right and that there IS a @#!*% for him to burn in.
> 
> (no disrespect intended Stead)


I appreciate your respectful sentiment and your anger. There are so many senseless acts these days that make people just shake their head and say why? This is definitely one of those. Regards, Steadfastly


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## davetcan

Unless, of course, he confesses to his sins and accepts Christ as his saviour. 




Milkman said:


> And if he IS guilty, I hope Steadfastly's right and that there IS a hell for him to burn in.
> 
> (no disrespect intended Stead)


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## Milkman

davetcan said:


> Unless, of course, he confesses to his sins and accepts Christ as his saviour.



Nah, that only puts him in good with religion, not necessarily with god.

But that's another thread.


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## davetcan

Good point, I can live with that interpretation.



Milkman said:


> Nah, that only puts him in good with religion, not necessarily with god.
> 
> But that's another thread.


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## GuitarsCanada

nkjanssen said:


> Huh?
> 
> Care to elaborate?
> 
> You have an issue with the parole system, so your solution is to torture people before they're convicted?


Can we at least torture them a bit when they are convicted?


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## davetcan

Wow guess I need to clear the air 

NO I DO NOT CONDONE TORTURE ! In fact I don't condone violence of any kind, I hate it. Having said that I'm completely frustrated with our justice system as it stands. In this particular case I don't think there was much doubt this guy was involved. As it turns out the real reason he probably wasn't talking is that he and his buddies had already committed the act, why we may never know. But not to worry, he's got lots of money and can afford the best legal representation. He'll serve a few years and be back on the street, which was the reason behind my example earlier. 

My post that caused so much consternation was made immediately after watching the mother, wife and baby, make a plea for his life. I was pissed off then and am still pissed off now. 

That's it.

I'm now going to exercise my right to add someone to my ignore list. First time I've ever done that in all my years on forums and the internet. feels kind of good.


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## Intrepid

There is nothing inconsistent with saying the following:
(1) The Bosma Family has our sincere sympathy and we hope that the perpetrators of this Homicide are brought to justice, receive a fair trial and then, if convicted, receive the appropriate punishment under law.
(2) Dellen Millard is entitled to the presumption of innocence and has a right to remain silent under our Constitution and has a right to a Fair Trial before an impartial Jury.



What is not appropriate (though understandable) is the knee jerk reaction that just because someone is arrested that they are automatically guilty. Our Justice System has demonstrated over and over again that this type of thinking not only leads to miscarriages of Justice and wrongful convictions but also assists the real offender escaping any scrutiny by the Police because they have incorrectly focussed on someone else. None of us here know the real facts of this case. I even doubt that the Police know everything at this point and that is why the investigation is ongoing. Our Criminal Justice System is designed to be the buffer between an accused and the misinformed general public. Something has to stand in the way of men with pitch forks and torches in the middle of the night and an accused person. That is why we no longer burn witches at the stake. Our Justice System should be measured in fairness not vengeance.
One note, to whoever made the comment that they will only get a few years and then be free, I simply point out that in Canada a conviction for 1st Degree Murder carries a minimum punishment of Life in prison with an ability to "apply" for parole after 25 years are served. Criminal Justice statistics demonstrate that Parole is not likely granted until the 32-33 year mark and many NEVER get parole.


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## GuitarsCanada

Intrepid said:


> There is nothing inconsistent with saying the following:
> (1) The Bosma Family has our sincere sympathy and we hope that the perpetrators of this Homicide are brought to justice, receive a fair trial and then, if convicted, receive the appropriate punishment under law.
> (2) Dellen Millard is entitled to the presumption of innocence and has a right to remain silent under our Constitution and has a right to a Fair Trial before an impartial Jury.
> 
> 
> 
> What is not appropriate (though understandable) is the knee jerk reaction that just because someone is arrested that they are automatically guilty. Our Justice System has demonstrated over and over again that this type of thinking not only leads to miscarriages of Justice and wrongful convictions but also assists the real offender escaping any scrutiny by the Police because they have incorrectly focussed on someone else. None of us here know the real facts of this case. I even doubt that the Police know everything at this point and that is why the investigation is ongoing. Our Criminal Justice System is designed to be the buffer between an accused and the misinformed general public. Something has to stand in the way of men with pitch forks and torches in the middle of the night and an accused person. That is why we no longer burn witches at the stake. Our Justice System should be measured in fairness not vengeance.
> One note, to whoever made the comment that they will only get a few years and then be free, I simply point out that in Canada a conviction for 1st Degree Murder carries a minimum punishment of Life in prison with an ability to "apply" for parole after 25 years are served. Criminal Justice statistics demonstrate that Parole is not likely granted until the 32-33 year mark and many NEVER get parole.


I don't think anyone here actually disagrees with any of that. It's just emotions coming out. Its such a senseless and stupid waste of life over what appears to be no more than a hunk of steel. Some poor slob loses his life trying to sell a truck. It is the type of thing that really pisses a lot of people off including me. Does not matter who did it in my mind and for whatever twisted reason. If you want to steal trucks then steal them. Takes about 5 minutes to do. There are several operating car theft rings in Canada right now. There were 15 trucks stolen around here the last few weeks alone.


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## davetcan

Intrepid said:


> One note, to whoever made the comment that they will only get a few years and then be free, I simply point out that in Canada a conviction for 1st Degree Murder carries a minimum punishment of Life in prison with an ability to "apply" for parole after 25 years are served. Criminal Justice statistics demonstrate that Parole is not likely granted until the 32-33 year mark and many NEVER get parole.


That would be me. Feel free to explain the examples I posted earlier. You're also assuming he will be convicted of First Degree Murder. He has been charged with it but it may not stick. A good lawyer can work wonders. It's also true that he may actually be innocent. The courts will decide based on the evidence presented and yes they may still get it wrong. I'm patiently waiting for the "it was the other guys" or the "temporary insanity" plea.


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## hardasmum

davetcan said:


> I'm now going to exercise my right to add someone to my ignore list. First time I've ever done that in all my years on forums and the internet. feels kind of good.


It seems a bit severe to ignore someone that has a difference of opinion.


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## 4345567

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## Steadfastly

hardasmum said:


> It seems a bit severe to ignore someone that has a difference of opinion.


I didn't read every post and don't know exactly what was said by both members. If someone's posts are constantly rude with no effort at being polite, I would exercise this right and have done so a couple of times. I have no time to even read posts from someone of that nature. We all have our off days but when it's a habitual thing, that is a different cup of tea.


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## davetcan

It was the calling me insane and stupid that triggered that 



hardasmum said:


> It seems a bit severe to ignore someone that has a difference of opinion.


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## hardasmum

davetcan said:


> It was the calling me insane and stupid that triggered that
> 
> 
> 
> hardasmum said:
> 
> 
> 
> It seems a bit severe to ignore someone that has a difference of opinion.
Click to expand...

I may have missed that part. Apologies!


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## 4345567

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## davetcan

No apologies required at all. I was paraphrasing. I think the correct language was "nuts" and "cognitive dissonence" or something like that, LOL.

I’ve watched the bickering back and forth between Milkman and Nick and just don’t have the time or energy to get caught up in something similar, especially over an inane comment made out of pure frustration that I’ve already apologized for. 
I also regret, and apologize to the OP, that this thread has turned into something of a political/religious debate. It should be moved into the correct forum if people want to continue this “discussion”.


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## Ship of fools

Nah Davetcan it should just stay where it is, and besides thats what makes us Canadian knowing that we don't have to agree with somones else's point of view and yep sometimes we get a touch hot under the collar because we read something that rubs us the wrong way and thats okay we just have to understand that we don't know the other person and whats really behind the words typed on a screen. I know I have been quilty of that and I just move on and forget about it and look forward to having open and honest discussions with other folks about things that are or can be important to help me or them to understand the whys and some of the craziness of our world.
We are better people for honestly stating what we think and besides they finally charged the dweeb with I think they said capital murder, and we see what drugs can do to their brains or lack of brains.
that crazy ship guy out west.me


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## noman

There is way more to this story than simple car theft. Would any of us leave the house at 9:30 at night to test drive a vehicle with a complete stranger? I don't even let people know where I live or give them a phone number when I'm selling on Kijiji. Street smarts.........you have to be these days! Totally different subject but the guy in Cleveland who held those women for over a decade is pleading not guilty. I never understand the system and how it's played..............


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## Intrepid

I don't think it is my place to explain anything to you. Nor do I think I would have the time if it involved complex legal principles. I do not know what examples you have posted but I am sure they are very nice. I can also post pages of wrongful convictions in Canada over the last 2 decades but I'm afraid that it would not change your mind that we must have a robust presumption of innocence in our Justice System. A skilled Lawyer can make a difference. They can point out the flaws in a Prosecution's case and raise a reasonable doubt. That is exactly what our system requires. What it doesn't require is a bunch of ******** (and I don't mean you) telling us that the Police wouldn't charge anyone if they weren't guilty. The "hang 'em high mentality" is so old and flawed that it isn't deserving of an argument. I've said my opinion and now I must retire from this topic so more knowledgeable people can espouse on how they know everyone is guilty without even having viewed the evidence.


davetcan said:


> That would be me. Feel free to explain the examples I posted earlier. You're also assuming he will be convicted of First Degree Murder. He has been charged with it but it may not stick. A good lawyer can work wonders. It's also true that he may actually be innocent. The courts will decide based on the evidence presented and yes they may still get it wrong. I'm patiently waiting for the "it was the other guys" or the "temporary insanity" plea.


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## guitarman2

davetcan said:


> Wow guess I need to clear the air
> 
> NO I DO NOT CONDONE TORTURE ! In fact I don't condone violence of any kind, I hate it. Having said that I'm completely frustrated with our justice system as it stands. In this particular case I don't think there was much doubt this guy was involved. As it turns out the real reason he probably wasn't talking is that he and his buddies had already committed the act, why we may never know. But not to worry, he's got lots of money and can afford the best legal representation. He'll serve a few years and be back on the street, which was the reason behind my example earlier.
> 
> My post that caused so much consternation was made immediately after watching the mother, wife and baby, make a plea for his life. I was pissed off then and am still pissed off now.
> 
> That's it.
> 
> I'm now going to exercise my right to add someone to my ignore list. First time I've ever done that in all my years on forums and the internet. feels kind of good.



There's always got to be one person on the Internet that thinks there the moral police. Yes I recognized your post as an emotional outburst. I feel the same way emotionally. Of course if we were presented the real option to torture this person we wouldn't do it. Or would we?
I also, have no faith in the Canadian judicial system. If it comes out that they kidnapped this guy and he was killed accidentally (if they prove this in court) then all that may happen is a man slaughter charge. Maybe 10 years out in 3. Of course this may not happen but I wouldn't be surprised.
It wasn't long ago that a female serial child killer only received 10 years and is now somewhere in this world having children of her own and enjoying life. Thats our justice system.
If we have to be on one side of the extreme outcomes I think I'll take the torture concept.


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## Cartcanuck

As soon as I heard that
1. the accused wasn't talking or cooperating with the authorities
2. the accused was charged with 1st degree murder

My first thought was that the police are using the 1st degree murder charge to scare the accused into pointing fingers at the accomplices. If he's not cooperating they authorities would have to have some pretty solid evidence to go with the 1st degree (premeditated) murder charge. 

either way....we will watch it all play out in the coming days.

I want to trust in our legal and justice system to handle this appropriately. The skeptic in me fears plea bargains and sentences (and parole) being far too lenient. But I want them to get the right guy too. 

The most important thing here is the Bosma's family and friends. My wife grew up in Hamilton and apparently new of Bosma as a friend of her cousin's. So this horrible event has reached beyond his immediate family and is impacting many people. My prayers and thoughts are for all those affected by this. There are a lot of people who have had their worlds shaken by this.


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## 4345567

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## GuitarsCanada

I have a feeling we are going to find out that this Millard guy was a panzi or stooge used by some very bad people. The ones that are still on the loose. This guy needed no money and was most likely bored. He got himself into some big trouble.


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## davetcan

Well I can't condone torture although there are times when I wish i could, such as this one. I would be satisfied if whoever did this receives the full penalty available under our present legal system. I really doubt it will happen but i can hope. The capability to do this to another human being likely exists in more of us than we'd like to imagine but the apparent senselessness of this incident is what makes it so troubling. The fact that they tried to steal a truck from someone else first makes this premeditated in my opinion. Perhaps not the murder but certainly the theft, maybe he tried to fight back, we'll likely never know the full story.



guitarman2 said:


> There's always got to be one person on the Internet that thinks there the moral police. Yes I recognized your post as an emotional outburst. I feel the same way emotionally. Of course if we were presented the real option to torture this person we wouldn't do it. Or would we?
> I also, have no faith in the Canadian judicial system. If it comes out that they kidnapped this guy and he was killed accidentally (if they prove this in court) then all that may happen is a man slaughter charge. Maybe 10 years out in 3. Of course this may not happen but I wouldn't be surprised.
> It wasn't long ago that a female serial child killer only received 10 years and is now somewhere in this world having children of her own and enjoying life. Thats our justice system.
> If we have to be on one side of the extreme outcomes I think I'll take the torture concept.


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## guitarman2

nkjanssen said:


> A few years ago, I don't think torturing people accused of a crime would have even entered the minds of anyone in Canada or the U.S. other than maybe a very small fringe minority. These days, it's seems to be a natural first reaction to any report of a heinous crime. And it's it's not just by a fringe element. It's by average people and prominant political leaders. It seems like we might be headed down a very dangerous road. That's why I find it so frightening, even when it is just an emotional response. The current system isn't by any means perfect, but it's a lot better than some of the totalitarian alternatives people seem to support.
> 
> Feel free to ignore-list me for holding that view.


I'm not about to "ignore list" You can hold any view you want. As can anyone. Your post is further evidence that the justice system is doing no more than frustrating people in to judging emotionally. For example I really like the US system of locking up sexual predators for hundreds of years. While Canada allows sexual predators to commit crimes against hundreds of children and are out in a couple years. How many times has Graham James been tried? How many children has he victimized? Why is he still walking around? 
In this latest case in Cleveland they are talking about the death sentence. Thats a 5 year stretch here in Canada.
If that was my wife or child that was taken, your dam right I'd want him dead.


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## 4345567

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## guitarman2

nkjanssen said:


> Sentencing and parole are very different issues than due process and torture. I can completely understand both sides to the debate about the death penalty and I also tend to agree that sexual predators generally deserve to be punished much more harshly that they often are. It's a COMPLETELY different thing to say that someone merely _accused_ of a crime should be tortured or indefinitely imprisoned without trial, both of which views seem to be commonplace these days. The idea that all of an accused's legal rights should be suspended if the crime they are accused of is particularly heinous or has received a particularly high amount of media attention is repugnant to every principle that a free and democratic society is founded on. We shouldn't go down that road.



I completely agree. No torturing should occur until after conviction.9kkhhd


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## allthumbs56

There really isn't a lot of evidence in the public eye right now - his tattoo and the finding of the truck at his mom's house. I don't think the cops have even divulged where they found Mr. Bosma's remainss so really we don't know anything.

Here's what I don't get though - how can the lawyer can say that his client is 100% innocent of all charges and then go on to say that the trial will take about 2 years. If the layyer determined innocence in a matter of days ............................. why should it take the system years? 

Is this a business?


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## Guest

nkjanssen said:


> Sentencing and parole are very different issues than due process and torture. I can completely understand both sides to the debate about the death penalty and I also tend to agree that sexual predators generally deserve to be punished much more harshly that they often are. It's a COMPLETELY different thing to say that someone merely _accused_ of a crime should be tortured or indefinitely imprisoned without trial, both of which views seem to be commonplace these days. The idea that all of an accused's legal rights should be suspended if the crime they are accused of is particularly heinous or has received a particularly high amount of media attention is repugnant to every principle that a free and democratic society is founded on. We shouldn't go down that road.


Nothing to add except to say: well said. Spot on. The issues I think most people have with the Canadian justice system lie in the sentencing guidelines. Due process is, quite literally, sacred and needs to be upheld. Even when it's very hard, emotionally, to do just that. _More so_ when it's very hard to uphold it.


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## StevieMac

I understand the rationale for remaining completely silent, other than opening up just enough to plead "not guilty". In terms of a starting point for legal defense, that's probably the best initial approach and of course it's entirely within the accused' rights to do so. My concern however is around the possibility that the legal defense will ultimately concoct a story aimed at "character assassination" of the deceased, simply to suggest mitigating circumstances leading to their death (and presumably a lesser charge/sentence). 

I didn't know Mr. Bosma, but I'd hate to see his family have to endure that kind of post mortem treatment...


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## Chito

From what I have been reading, I'm starting to believe this murder was done for "thrills". For me, this is the only reason that makes sense as to why this happened. Proving it in court would not be easy, unless they find the other guys involved in this. Such a waste of life.


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## Ship of fools

And the story gets more bizzare as the days keep going, now he is being implicated in a females disapperance according to the girls boyfriend who had cell phone records that say he talked with her over 8 times and now he is saying that she wanted him to get her drugs and a place to stay and also they are looking at his fathers death last year and if he had anything to do with that.
As the days go by the story seems to be growing more and more that he looks as if he was involved in the drug trade and with that seems to come death and violence, what ever happened to the days of the old where drug dealers got caught and went to jail and started all over after they were released and there was no violence. It just scares me to death when life is so unimportant to some folks and just because THEY CAN TAKE A GUN AND SHOOT YOU just because so they can make some South American or Mexican even richer then he needs to be and they have no problem getting our kids and some of us hooked, I wonder what the hell they would do if it were there kids would they give a damn. 
I doubt it.ship......................................................................here is hoping Chavo Guzman meets the same fate as those he has killed with drugs and bullets and for all the rest of those peckerheads who are killing our kids softly


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## sulphur

Ship, i don't know why you're so intent on involving this guys supposed drug involvement.

He was well off, no worries about cash.
It's not like he was some crackhead robbing and killing for his next fix.
The guy just seems that he was twisted, drugs, or no drugs.


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## bolero

I would guess they stole the truck to do some smuggling operation, the guy was a pilot & ran an airline as well. and they tried to get the same kind of vehicle in toronto, earlier...so they wanted a big truck, for something

there's probably a whole network lot of other ppl involved

real shame about Tim Bosma, RIP


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## hardasmum

Ship of fools said:


> what ever happened to the days of the old where drug dealers got caught and went to jail and started all over after they were released and there was no violence.


Yeah like the good old days of prohibition where every gangster that went in the joint came out reformed and no one got shot.

Things were so much simpler back then.


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## Ship of fools

Not sure what you mean by that hardasmum ( I do not recall saying anything about the prohibition days so maybe you are confussing me with someone else's post ) but to get ot the point just because he has access to money doesn't remove him from the drug business its what was implied this morning on the news.I have known a lot of very well off folks who at one time or another had gotten involved in the drug trade, thank goodness for almost all of them it was a one off but there were a few who got such a rush from being with the bad boys and the thrill of the game that they ended up where they belong.
ship


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## hardasmum

Ship of fools said:


> Not sure what you mean by that hardasmum ( I do not recall saying anything about the prohibition days so maybe you are confussing me with someone else's post


Your previous post referred to "the good old days". You suggested all dealers were scared straight after spending some time in the slammer. Maybe you were joking?

My point was that there were no "good old days" and before they were killing each other over cocaine they were killing each other over whiskey.


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## Ship of fools

well a second arrest was made.ship


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## Steadfastly

Now they are looking for suspect number three.

The second suspect arrested in the Tim Bosma slaying has been identified as Mark Smich, 25, of Oakville, Supt. Dan Kinsella of Hamilton police announced Wednesday afternoon.
Smich, who according to Kinsella is known to police, will be charged with first-degree murder. No further details about him were released.
Dellen Millard, 27, is already facing a charge of first-degree murder in Bosma's death. Police said at a news conference this afternoon that a third suspect is still being sought.
News of a second arrest came just minutes after a public memorial service for Bosma ended.
Smich was arrested while was walking near Dorval Drive and Wyecroft Road in Oakville this morning. Police were at a home listed as being owned by the Smich family earlier this morning.
The arrest was made less than one kilometre from the home.

http://www.cbc.ca/hamilton/news/story/2013/05/22/hamilton-bosma-second-arrest.html


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## Milkman

There will almost certainly be more arrests.

At this point it's mostly speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if this was all part of a drug smuggling operation. I'm sorry to cast aspersions toward pilots, but.....


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## Krelf

Ship of fools said:


> well a second arrest was made.ship


Now that there are two accused, there will likely be two different defence attorneys. This is when the silence could start to break. Each accused and his lawyer has an incentive to make the other accused look like the instigator and sole murderer so his client can get off with a reduced sentence or even walk. If the third accomplice is found, it will get even more contentious.


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## Milkman

I think you're right Krelf.

That whole omerta thing goes for a shit when you're facing serious penn time.

They tend to turn on each other like the scum they are.


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## GuitarsCanada

Its starting to become clear that these guys were running some kind of chop shop or auto theft thing on this idiots property. The found a Harley there stolen last year. But this Millards involvement still puzzles the hell out of me. He was clearly in no need of money


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## Milkman

GuitarsCanada said:


> Its starting to become clear that these guys were running some kind of chop shop or auto theft thing on this idiots property. The found a Harley there stolen last year. But this Millards involvement still puzzles the hell out of me. He was clearly in no need of money


It often seems the more priveledged and well off some people are, the greedier they become. Or maybe he just fancied himself a gangster.

Either way, if he's not in this up to his eyeballs, I'll eat my shirt.


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## Guest

from the National Post

Dellen Millard and Mark Smich to serve consecutive life sentences for two murders

_Two men convicted of murdering a young Toronto woman have been sentenced to life in prison with no chance 
of parole for 25 years, which they will serve on top of existing life sentences for another murder.

A jury found Dellen Millard and Mark Smich guilty of first-degree murder in the presumed death of Laura Babcock, 
who went missing more than five years ago and whose body has not been found.

Muffled cheers were heard in the Toronto courtroom as Justice Michael Code read his decision.

Millard, 32, of Toronto, and Smich, 30, of Oakville, Ont., were previously convicted of murdering a Hamilton man and 
burning his body in an animal incinerator.

First-degree murder carries an automatic life sentence with no chance of parole for at least 25 years._


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## Guest

Can you buy stuff off Kijiji from jail?


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## Diablo

Some things people do, I will never understand.
good riddance to these psychopaths.


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## Scotty

Much cheaper to drop them off in the Arctic. Besides, it will help offset the impact of global warming. Polar bears are suffering from food shortages.

Hell let's make it a full plane. Take Bernardo & Humolka too...among several others.


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