# *picture* the world according to americans



## SnowBlind (Feb 26, 2006)

got a good laugh...


----------



## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Hahaha, who ever made that has way too much free time, but it is pretty funny


----------



## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

Haha nice.


----------



## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

That's one of the funniest ones I've seen


----------



## searchin4signal (Sep 23, 2006)

Well...apparently they do need more maps.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLffEZa2cHY


----------



## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

LOL!!! Based on some of the conversations I've had with a FEW (and I stress a few), of our neighbours to the south, that map is pretty accurate. LOL!!

Kinda reminds me of a pretty girl with big boobs and no need or desire for a mind...when you are the center of your own little world...ignorance is bliss. LOL!!

NOTE: absolutely no disrespect intended towards our female forum members - because as guitarists/musicians you are all brilliant of course.


----------



## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

searchin4signal said:


> Well...apparently they do need more maps.....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLffEZa2cHY


OMG!!! LOL!!! That's hilarious. The pride of a nation.

:smilie_flagge17:


----------



## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

I've had some rather unpleasant experiences with some American co-workers simply because I was Canadian, but that was due to their own personal dysfunctions, not their nationality.


----------



## Guest (Sep 2, 2007)

Bigotry is never funny.

If you drew a similar cartoon and titled it "The World According To Jews", or "The World According To Blacks" it wouldn't be funny at all.

Why is it o.k. then to denigrate Americans?

It's not.

Evidently America doesn't have a monopoly on ignorance.


----------



## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> Bigotry is never funny.
> 
> If you drew a similar cartoon and titled it "The World According To Jews", or "The World According To Blacks" it wouldn't be funny at all.
> 
> ...


You're right. Bigotry isn't funny. Having an innocent laugh about a common observation or misconception is. That's where comedy comes from. 

Lighten up.


----------



## Guest (Sep 2, 2007)

Ask Americans if they think this is 'innocent' or 'a laugh' and I'll wager a good chunk of them see it instead for what it really is.... thinly veiled bigotry.


----------



## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> Ask Americans if they think this is 'innocent' or 'a laugh' and I'll wager a good chunk of them see it instead for what it really is.... thinly veiled bigotry.


Let's play a fun game I call connect the dots. 

File is here: http://www.demonbaby.com/pics/americanworld.gif

Uploaded by the owner(s) of 'Demon Baby.com'. 

http://samspade.org/whois/a7zi5h77pz5knxpvhvrfzzsgpu

Registrant: 
N/A 
518 DeKalb Ave. 2 
* Brooklyn NY 11205
US *

Mmkay, so that proves he's American... or atleast lives in America. Now, let's find his original post it was included in.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&s...baby.com+the+world++america&btnG=Search&meta=

Go go gadget Google!

So his post says: "To that end, something I often find dismaying about the world outside of America (here's a handy map for those of you confused as to what that might be) is the alarming lack of weird shit."

He really didn't seem offended by it... hell, maybe he's the one who originally made it? That makes 1 American that didn't find it offensive. I'll see what some American's I know think about it... I bet they laugh. 



> Lighten up.


+1.


----------



## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> Ask Americans if they think this is 'innocent' or 'a laugh' and I'll wager a good chunk of them see it instead for what it really is.... thinly veiled bigotry.


I'm sure you're absolutely right. OMG. How could I have been so wrong. I mean really. That's probably why Seinfeld only lasted one season, or Will and Grace was cancelled after only one episode. Bigotry against gay men, oooooohhhhh my. How could they be so EVIL.

Or maybe "Little Mosque on the Prairie" will spark a revolution in the Muslim world that will lead to extremist groups level Toronto's Financial District. 

Maybe CBC's Rick Mercer should be prosecuted in your "moral court" for being such a bigot. I mean really - that guy makes fun of everybody.

Maybe police should be allowed to arrest anyone that makes the "donut joke". How about that. 

ClintonHammond - the last thing the world needs is yet another preacher trying push his/her views or "morals" on everyone else. 

Once again....LIGHTEN UP!!


----------



## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> Ask Americans if they think this is 'innocent' or 'a laugh' and I'll wager a good chunk of them see it instead for what it really is.... thinly veiled bigotry.


So what exactly is your profession again? Karma police, party pooper? An assortment of the two?


----------



## Guest (Sep 2, 2007)

I'm disgusted by the "Canadian" pastime of bigotry toward Americans. 

When the shoe's on the other foot, they wine and suck and cry "You can't say things like that about us" but Canadians are all too willing to shout "Hey... look how dumb Americans are!" as if it's part of our constitution. And your cries of "Lighten Up" only serve to prove my point.

It's pathetic.


----------



## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

I don't know about you guys, but if an American laughs at 'us' or me I would just laugh it off... hell, I do that with ANYONE. And if they made a picture like that about Canada / Canadian's I would probably laugh at that too... it's not exactly a big deal. Everyone from the US on my MSN list that I've shown that picture to laughed as well... 

Judging by the posts of yours I've read you just need to pull the stick out of your ass and lighten up dude... not everything has to be, or is, politically correct. Get over it lol.


----------



## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> I'm disgusted by the "Canadian" pastime of bigotry toward Americans.
> 
> When the shoe's on the other foot, they wine and suck and cry "You can't say things like that about us" but Canadians are all too willing to shout "Hey... look how dumb Americans are!" as if it's part of our constitution. And your cries of "Lighten Up" only serve to prove my point.
> 
> It's pathetic.


Can't really recall the "You can't say things like that about us" situation. I actually find it quite funny when I hear the US interpretation of a Canadian - "Eh" - usually at the wrong time in the sentence or when I hear the Igloo jokes, moose jokes, the mountie jokes etc...

Until something becomes a massive campaign to sway public opinion or promote prejudice, sometimes a simple observation based on recent publicized events is kinda funny. Ha. Ha.

No pontificating required. 

I don't need to be saved. :food-smiley-004:


----------



## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> Ask Americans if they think this is 'innocent' or 'a laugh' and I'll wager a good chunk of them see it instead for what it really is.... thinly veiled bigotry.


Well, if it _is_ bigotry it certainly isn't veiled, even thinly. Its most obviously satire. It may be exaggerated but there is truth behind it. That's what satire is. If there was no obvious truth behind it people wouldn't find it funny, then you might be able to call it bigotry.

How Americans, or anybody, views the world is how they are viewed in the world. The world stage has a tough audience.

This seems to have an American origin but even if it doesn't it is still brilliant satire IMHO.

P.S. note the complete absence of the continent of Africa. Haha!


----------



## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

Lester B. Flat said:


> Well, if it _is_ bigotry it certainly isn't veiled, even thinly. Its most obviously satire. It may be exaggerated but there is truth behind it. That's what satire is. If there was no obvious truth behind it people wouldn't find it funny, then you might be able to call it bigotry.
> 
> How Americans, or anybody, views the world is how they are viewed in the world. The world stage has a tough audience.
> 
> ...


I didn't even notice that. LOL!! That's hilarious!


----------



## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

Can the admins give Clinton Hammond the custom title of "Staff Grump"? I actually find most of his complaining quite amusing :smile:


----------



## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

ClintonHammond said:


> Ask Americans if they think this is 'innocent' or 'a laugh' and I'll wager a good chunk of them see it instead for what it really is.... thinly veiled bigotry.


Sure, most Americans aren't that dumb. It may well be anti-American in nature, but bigotry? That's a heavy word to be tossing around. 

(I would guess the person who came up with this is more likely a teenager who doesn't get the irony that maybe the picture is a testament to his own ignorance than a middle-aged humorist)

Oh, but you know, people will justify this sort of thing by mentioning the fact that the song 'Blame Canada' from the South Park movie was nominated for an Oscar, totally missing the point that it was actually defending Canada from being used as a scapegoat by American politicians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blame_Canada


With all that said, I still think that laughing at a stereotype isn't bad as long as it isn't mean spirited and that one realizes it isn't an accurate expression of reality. I mean, who doesn't like those old Doug and Bob McKenzie skits?


----------



## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Stratin2traynor said:


> I didn't even notice that. LOL!! That's hilarious!


Ahahaha me neither, I was just like..wow Europe's lookin' pretty small


----------



## djem (Sep 14, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> I'm disgusted by the "Canadian" pastime of bigotry toward Americans.
> 
> When the shoe's on the other foot, they wine and suck and cry "You can't say things like that about us" but Canadians are all too willing to shout "Hey... look how dumb Americans are!" as if it's part of our constitution. And your cries of "Lighten Up" only serve to prove my point.
> 
> It's pathetic.


I agree with the other guys - lighten up.


----------



## stratovani (Jul 1, 2007)

Take it from me, people, I've lived with Americans for a good chunk of my life, I'm even married to one. All the Americans I know are extremely frustrated by everything that's going on in the US. They know the country's going down the wrong path. No one supports Bush or the Iraq War. The education system sucks. The environment is slowly decaying. Immigration policy is a joke. And people around here are slowly getting fed up with it all. People were hoping that by electing the Democrats last year that the Iraq War would end soon, but the Dems are as bad as the Republicans. And believe me, ClintonHammond, bigroty doesn't even figure in the equation. I know blacks that are just as pissed off as whites. In summing up, Americans are by and large good people who are not being told the whole story when it comes to world and current events, and are feeling powerless to do anything about it.


----------



## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

stratovani said:


> Take it from me, people, I've lived with Americans for a good chunk of my life, I'm even married to one. *All the Americans I know are extremely frustrated by everything that's going on in the US.* They know the country's going down the wrong path. No one supports Bush or the Iraq War. The education system sucks. The environment is slowly decaying. Immigration policy is a joke. And people around here are slowly getting fed up with it all. People were hoping that by electing the Democrats last year that the Iraq War would end soon, but the Dems are as bad as the Republicans. And believe me, ClintonHammond, bigroty doesn't even figure in the equation. I know blacks that are just as pissed off as whites. *In summing up, Americans are by and large good people who are not being told the whole story when it comes to world and current events, and are feeling powerless to do anything about it*.


Yup, that's pretty much describes the vast majority of Americans I know...which is one of the main reasons they are living abroad and have made no plans to return home in the near future.


----------



## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

stratovani said:


> Americans are by and large good people who are not being told the whole story when it comes to world and current events, and are feeling powerless to do anything about it.


I remember many years ago thinking CNN was a pretty good source for world news. Sure it had an American bias, naturally, but there were stories from around the world. Then, beginning with the first Gulf War, then the O.J. trial, it began to spiral speedily down to the point where there is absolutely no news from anywhere else in the world unless it is a story that affects the U.S. directly. Iraq, in other words.

Also, if there is a hurricane or if Lindsey Lohan gets drunk, it even shuts out domestic American news. They seem to be imposing a kind of cultural isolation upon themselves and seem completely self-absorbed/brainwashed. CNN is a 24 hour news channel with reporters all over the world, its not like they don't have the time or resources for wide coverage. 

Americans are starved for news/information and are either being fed propaganda/trivia packaged as entertainment or being sent to bed without supper. They are not being informed but distracted instead.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Sadly that map is not as far fetched as it was intended.


Americans are not dumb, but they are VERY egocentric and tend to know very little about what goes on beyond their borders.


Just for fun ask an American how many provinces there are in Canada, or any similar basic question about us.


There are exceptions, but it's shocking how few Americans know as much about us as we do about them.


----------



## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Sadly that map is not as far fetched as it was intended.
> 
> 
> Americans are not dumb, but they are VERY egocentric and tend to know very little about what goes on beyond their borders.
> ...


That's not because of ethnocentrism...It's because we watch way more American TV than they watch Canadian TV.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...the fact that the US has become a third world nation is no laughing matter.

there but for _*fortune_...

-dh

(and, yes, the *irony is intentional...)


----------



## djem (Sep 14, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Sadly that map is not as far fetched as it was intended.
> 
> 
> Americans are not dumb, but they are VERY egocentric and tend to know very little about what goes on beyond their borders.
> ...


I think egocentric may be a bit harsh. I honestly think that a lot of them believe in the things they do mainly as a result of the media brainwashing as well as their education system as well.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

djem said:


> I think egocentric may be a bit harsh. I honestly think that a lot of them believe in the things they do mainly as a result of the media brainwashing as well as their education system as well.




...god, guns and politics.

-dh


----------



## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

NB-SK said:


> That's not because of ethnocentrism...It's because we watch way more American TV than they watch Canadian TV.


First of all I don't like speaking or writing in absolutes and please don't mistake this for a slam against Americans. 

NB-SK: 

I don't know about the whole TV theory. I've never watched Chinese/Japanese/Vietnamese/Korean/African/Middle Eastern/Russian or European TV and I know quite a bit about those countries and where they are. 

I agree that Americans are fed propaganda by there media. We are subject to it here as well. I've stopped watching the evening news because of the "Enquirier" type sound bits and parlor trick pitches the local networks make in order to try and get us to choose their news show over the competitors. When really, all they have to do is report the news in an unbiased fashion without all the hoopla and most people would watch it. I'm not looking to be entertained - I just want the news. (oops - off topic)

As for Americans being fed propaganda and misinformation being responsible for the general lack of awareness of the world around them - I'm sure there are libraries in most of their communities. If not there is the internet...As far as I'm concerned there is more than enough information available out there. It's just a matter of wanting to learn...and that brings us back to ethnocentrism. 


:food-smiley-004:


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...you know what would be really interesting, not to mention educational?

to be able to watch comedians from other countries doing schtick on north americans, with english subtitles. 

comedy is always full of essential truths. it would be amazing to see how other cultures perceive us.

-dh


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

djem said:


> I think egocentric may be a bit harsh. I honestly think that a lot of them believe in the things they do mainly as a result of the media brainwashing as well as their education system as well.



The cause of the egocentricty (nice word use eh?) is not the issue.

It may be the evil media's fault, but the fact remains that a shocking number of Americans, and some supposedly well educate ones, know very little and care even less about the rest of the world.


----------



## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...you know what would be really interesting, not to mention educational?
> 
> to be able to watch comedians from other countries doing schtick on north americans, with english subtitles.
> 
> ...


I'm game for that. There's gotta be something out there. Although I suspect most of it would be about the US as opposed to Canada. I'm gonna take a look and see what I find.


----------



## djem (Sep 14, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...god, guns and politics.
> 
> -dh



Then there's the principle of Manifest Destiny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> It may be the evil media's fault, but the fact remains that a shocking number of Americans, and some supposedly well educate ones, know very little and care even less about the rest of the world.



Hey, a lot of them know very little of the world outside of their state, or even town!

For nearly the past 100 years America has been the big kid on the block! If you grew up inside its borders there was little or no need to know anything about the outside world. Everything you needed was at home, especially before about 1970. Cars, radios, food, clothing, you name it and it was produced in the USA.

Then came Japanese cars and electronics. Within a decade the domestic home electronics market was pretty well wiped out. More and more car imports were seen on the roads.

There hasn't been really enough time for the average American to understand how the world has changed, except in a negative sense. Countries that had started and lost wars of aggression now compete for manufactured products and John Cougar Melloncamp's "Jack and Diane" have lost their high paying factory jobs, leaving them few career options besides burger flipping.

To the average American life must seem rather unfair. America is traditionally an introvert country. They got dragged into WWI and WWII, against the wishes of a large portion of their citizenry. There's even conspiracy theories that Roosevelt let Pearl Harbour go unwarned of the coming Japanese attack to rouse up Joe America enough to get support to enter the war, which until that event Joe simply did not want to do. America had the factories, the brains and the work force. Admiral Yamamoto made no secret of the fact that he had to ensure a quick Japanese victory. The last thing he wanted was for hostilities to drag out long enough for America to get its industrial production ramped up onto a war footing. Hitler understood the very same thing and was not at all pleased when America entered the war in Europe.

All the moral superiority in the universe won't help you if your enemy has a hundred bullet factories and you have only one.

So America gives the world victory for freedom, at least twice! It invents and exports products at a price the average joe could afford, raising their living standard. Even after Germany was defeated they airlifted food and coal into Berlin to prevent the Russians from starving them into submission.

What did other countries ever do for them? De Gaulle of France even welshed on his war debt!

Britain was one of the few to even say "Thank You!"

To this day mostly they get little besides being spat upon! Europe has got to be the biggest bunch of freeloaders on the planet! Every time they have a crisis like genocide in the Balkans they look to America to pay for the bullets and the blood, while they stay home and tell each other they're so superior!

What would they do if America turned isolationist again? At first they'd probably be delighted! Then when the first berserker president of Wackystan started shooting Scuds at his neighbours we'd see how they'd handle the crisis on their own...

IMHO, of course!

:food-smiley-004:


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Hey, a lot of them know very little of the world outside of their state, or even town!
> 
> For nearly the past 100 years America has been the big kid on the block! If you grew up inside its borders there was little or no need to know anything about the outside world. Everything you needed was at home, especially before about 1970. Cars, radios, food, clothing, you name it and it was produced in the USA.
> 
> ...





Rrrrrriiiiiiiight.

That's certainly one perspective.


Not surprisingly I don't exactly see it that way. The time of might makes right has come and gone. If the USA doesn't get in step with the now and future they may find themselves the only ones without a chair when the music stops.


Are you sure you're not secretly merkin?


Seriously, you state your opinions well. I just don't agree with many of them.


----------



## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

Wild Bill said:


> ... America is traditionally an introvert country....


I think this might explain their horrific foriegn policies?

It wasn't that long ago that on trips to the US Canadians were getting hasseled and spat on for not joining 'The coalition of the willing'. I'm still waiting for an apollogy from our Southern Neighbours, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Hamm Guitars said:


> I think this might explain their horrific foriegn policies?
> 
> It wasn't that long ago that on trips to the US Canadians were getting hasseled and spat on for not joining 'The coalition of the willing'. I'm still waiting for an apollogy from our Southern Neighbours, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.




LOL yeah I heard a few comments and remarks. Those dry up quickly when you respond to them.

I travel to the States a fair bit. The Gulf war brought out the worst in many Americans and the best in others.

Which is which is a matter of perspective.


----------



## djem (Sep 14, 2006)

stratovani said:


> Take it from me, people, I've lived with Americans for a good chunk of my life, I'm even married to one. All the Americans I know are extremely frustrated by everything that's going on in the US. They know the country's going down the wrong path. No one supports Bush or the Iraq War. The education system sucks. The environment is slowly decaying. Immigration policy is a joke. And people around here are slowly getting fed up with it all. People were hoping that by electing the Democrats last year that the Iraq War would end soon, but the Dems are as bad as the Republicans. And believe me, ClintonHammond, bigroty doesn't even figure in the equation. I know blacks that are just as pissed off as whites. In summing up, Americans are by and large good people who are not being told the whole story when it comes to world and current events, and are feeling powerless to do anything about it.


I agree that their media is feeding them what the governement and industry want them to believe. But nowadays everyone has resources to allow them to see the real, actual world that's out there. It's a matter of seeking out the truth.

My beef is with US Foreign Policy and how it contributed to the premature and uncontrolled collapse of the U.S.S.R. which in turn allowed the US to be the sole power broker for our planet. Now we have a superpower that can impose it's policies (Iraq, Afghanistan, Middle East, Kosovo, etc.) unchecked to the point where it blatently violates International Law and UN Resolutions because it can. It's obvious that conditions have actually gotten worse in these countries after the meddling of foreign powers. The whole premise in the latest Iraqi occupation is a sham and based on lies.

*"The great masses of the people will more easily fall victims to a big lie than to a small one. Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it."

"The art of leadership... consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention."

"All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach."*

A few translated/paraphrased historical quotes for you to ponder. Guess who the author is? I'll answer this later if no one guesses it. It disturbs and angers me that they ring true in today's world.

But destroying a country such as Iraq and then using Dick Cheney's (US Vice-President) company, Halliburton, to rebuild it proves to be quite lucrative when it issues out non-competing contracts in Iraq. Shucks, poor Dick Cheney only saw his shares rise 3280% in the last year. Being the nice guy he is, he's donating this to charity. Yeah, right. Remember when Jean Chretien told Bush no way to supporting Iraq? Bush threw a hissy fit and then Canada is not on the bidders list for Iraqi contracts. That, by the way, was one of my proudest moments of being a Canadian.

This arose as a quotation by Lord Acton in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton in 1887:

*"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."*

In the near future Russia and China will become more prominent in world policy and will help counter some of the one-sidedness we have been witnessing over the last decade. The world needs power balance. Empires and Empire building have proven two things conclusively. 1) Corruption and exploitation (the innocent will always suffer) 2) they eventually fall out of power.

There are incredible resources that will help shed light on today's political situation. Let's take Afghanistan for example. I'm glad all the current efforts there are actually helping opium production hit an all-time record high. Want some insight to the Afghan conflict? It just didn't start with the Soviet invasion, it goes a lot further back in history than that. Please note that the Soviets fought against the infant stage of the Taliban which the US supported at the time and now is fighting against.

The Great Game:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Game

Remember, educate yourself. Knowledge, especially true knowledge, is power. Listen to the words of politicians carefully and challenge anything that you don't feel comfortable with.


----------



## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

djem said:


> ... Remember when Jean Chretien told Bush no way to supporting Iraq? Bush threw a hissy fit and then Canada not on the bidders list for Iraqi contracts. That, by the way, was one of my proudest moments of being a Canadian. ...


Mine too. I think no matter of what anyone thinks of Jean Chretien they have to give him due credit for this single, honorable act.

I know all too well who first uttered your quotes, as a friend of mine is a 'true' history buff and has countless books that I have read on that man and his effects on the world from just about every possible angle.


----------



## djem (Sep 14, 2006)

Hamm Guitars said:


> Mine too. I think no matter of what anyone thinks of Jean Chretien they have to give him due credit for this single, honorable act.
> 
> I know all too well who first uttered your quotes, as a friend of mine is a 'true' history buff and has countless books that I have read on that man and his effects on the world from just about every possible angle.


Yes, truly Chretien's moment of glory, although I also admired him for throttling that reporter that got too close. Now our current administration, with 'US Vice President Stephen Harper' at the helm.....well, I'll just leave that alone. I trust that he will never have a defining moment like Chretien's defiance participating in Iraq.

Back on topic, what I find disturbing is that those quotes are the way a lot of foreign policy is being implemented in current political affairs. The whole Iraq mess is reflected in those quotes. 'You're either with us or against us', Weapons of Mass Destruction, etc.

If anyone wants to know the author of those quotes, PM me.


----------



## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

Hamm Guitars said:


> Mine too. I think no matter of what anyone thinks of Jean Chretien they have to give him due credit for this single, honorable act.


Funny, I was thinking of that yesterday, when he stood up in Parliament and said:



> Da people of Canada have spoken, WE WILL NOT GO TO WAR!


 :smilie_flagge17:


----------



## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

I also know the author of those quotes. He was a dick...but very persuasive. LOL!!

Those quotes are probably the secret mission statements of most marketing/advertising firms and divisions in the world (mostly US though).


----------



## djem (Sep 14, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> .....So America gives the world victory for freedom, at least twice!.....


I disagree that it was the US that gave the world freedom after WWI. They helped after joining the conflict in 1917.

But they did have a say in re-drawing of the world map (did this very quickly without considering the long term effects), effectively creating/reclaiming colonies to exploit along with the UK & France. Yippee! Everyone gets a slice of pie. _*This all set the stage for WWII and in fact, the problems we see in many areas of the world today are a result of these haphazard policies drawn up after WWI (Treaty of Versailles).*_ Woodrow Wilson truly believed he was ordained by God to create a new world from the ruins of WWI. I think his divine message must have gotten lost in translation because he helped in creating quite a mess.

Things tend to go full circle and what we see present day is the new 'Empire' staking claim to it's colonies. Money, oil, power, control. That's the common denominator.

Why so little attention to the genocide in Rwanda?


----------



## Michelle (Aug 21, 2006)

djem said:


> ......................Guess who the author is? I'll answer this later if no one guesses it. It disturbs and angers me that they ring true in today's world.


My guess: Joseph Goebbels or maybe it was Stalin, whatever, I certainly understand and agree with your take on things, these are dangerous times.

I just won't go to the States, I am definitely not a chicken but I do fear them, the gov't. No habeas corpus, detention on hearsay evidence, redition, torture.

We have a couple cruise ships here every week in the summer from the US, they are just folks like anyone else. You can read a lot on-line how powerless and frustrated they feel, Canadians should take notice 'cause 'we're next'.

Michelle


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

djem said:


> Why so little attention to the genocide in Rwanda?


I've asked the same question a number of times, even here in this forum!

I believe its because the UN couldn't get America to go in and stop it! And no other country stepped up to the plate.

Why they didn't step up I believe I stated already in a previous post.

They want someone ELSE to spend the money!

They want someone ELSE to spend the blood!

If I'm wrong then why didn't it happen?

Or is Uncle Sam supposed to be the policeman for the entire planet, at his own expense? And after each police action he must then accept all the blame and admit that he's basically evil.

It just doesn't seem logical to me that by bashing Americans we don't have to accept any blame for anything ourselves.

Personally, if I were an American I would absolutely be an isolationist! I would be totally against my government sending soldiers to help any country that refused to help mine! 

There are always be those who pervert the Golden Rule. They count on someone always turning the other cheek. I've come to believe that if you do unto others AS THEY HAVE DONE UNTO YOU you can correct such aberrant behavior.

Not that I'm against helping others. Far from it! I just think it wise to be quite selective about it.

:food-smiley-004:


----------



## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

Stratin2traynor said:


> First of all I don't like speaking or writing in absolutes and please don't mistake this for a slam against Americans.
> 
> NB-SK:
> 
> I don't know about the whole TV theory. I've never watched Chinese/Japanese/Vietnamese/Korean/African/Middle Eastern/Russian or European TV and I know quite a bit about those countries and where they are.


Actually, I was making a facetious remark.


----------



## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> I've asked the same question a number of times, even here in this forum!
> 
> I believe its because the UN couldn't get America to go in and stop it! And no other country stepped up to the plate.
> 
> ...



I think it is quite obvious - the American government couldn't think of how they could profit from it. Plain and simple. (and this is no reflection of the American people - just the morons that run their country).


----------



## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

djem said:


> But destroying a country such as Iraq and then using Dick Cheney's (US Vice-President) company, Halliburton, to rebuild it proves to be quite lucrative when it issues out non-competing contracts in Iraq....
> 
> .... Remember when Jean Chretien told Bush no way to supporting Iraq? Bush threw a hissy fit and then Canada is not on the bidders list for Iraqi contracts. That, by the way, was one of my proudest moments of being a Canadian.


Well, as much as I like the thought of Chretien telling off Bush, I wouldn't take for face value anything a crafty old man like him says or does.

You see, Canada profits from the Iraq War because we make some of the parts for the bombs and the missiles, we produce the steel for the tanks, we are the largest source of crude oil to the US, etc... The US Ambassador to Canada said in 2003 that, indirectly, Canada offers more support to them in Iraq than any of the countries that are officially involved. Frank McKenna embarrassed Paul Martin when he said something similar about the Missile Shield Program.

We've also been sending soldiers to Iraq since the beginning of the war. If I remember correctly, the Canadian government as admitted that there were at least 8 members of JTF-2 in Iraq on 'exchange programs' with the SEALs at the beginning of the war. I'm sure many more members of JTF-2 have gone to Iraq to 'study' since then.


----------



## djem (Sep 14, 2006)

NB-SK said:


> Well, as much as I like the thought of Chretien telling off Bush, I wouldn't take for face value anything a crafty old man like him says or does.
> 
> You see, Canada profits from the Iraq War because we make some of the parts for the bombs and the missiles, we produce the steel for the tanks, we are the largest source of crude oil to the US, etc... The US Ambassador to Canada said in 2003 that, indirectly, Canada offers more support to them in Iraq than any of the countries that are officially involved. Frank McKenna embarrassed Paul Martin when he said something similar about the Missile Shield Program.
> 
> We've also been sending soldiers to Iraq since the beginning of the war. If I remember correctly, the Canadian government as admitted that there were at least 8 members of JTF-2 in Iraq on 'exchange programs' with the SEALs at the beginning of the war. I'm sure many more members of JTF-2 have gone to Iraq to 'study' since then.


Not supplying the US would equate to a trade embargo. How nations supply raw/processed materials, OEM parts is just international trade and basically an open market with the exception of nuclear technology. We are neighbours after all and I'm all in support of trade that's beneficial to all involved as well as military exchange programs. These points do not constitute Canada's full support of US Foreign Policy though.

As a nation, we do not support the war in Iraq and our politicians get the idea. Otherwise, Harper would be caving in, but he knows better. For months he's been vocal on the exit strategy for Afghanistan (Feb. 2009) and we know that with his minority gov't he better be saying things like that.

Here's an interesting read re: US invading Canada.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/29/AR2005122901412_pf.html


----------



## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

djem said:


> Not supplying the US would equate to a trade embargo. How nations supply raw/processed materials, OEM parts is just international trade and basically an open market with the exception of nuclear technology. We are neighbours after all and I'm all in support of trade that's beneficial to all involved as well as military exchange programs. These points do not constitute Canada's full support of US Foreign Policy though.
> 
> As a nation, we do not support the war in Iraq and our politicians get the idea. Otherwise, Harper would be caving in, but he knows better. For months he's been vocal on the exit strategy for Afghanistan (Feb. 2009) and we know that with his minority gov't he better be saying things like that.
> 
> ...



Missed the part about the JTF-2 probably being in Iraq? 

"As a nation, we do not support the war in Iraq and our politicians get the idea."

So, it's okay because we profit from the war despite ourselves? No really. Let's just say that there are military, diplomatic, and economic advantages in appearing to remain neutral...even better if Canadians aren't aware of it.


----------



## djem (Sep 14, 2006)

NB-SK said:


> Missed the part about the JTF-2 probably being in Iraq?
> 
> "As a nation, we do not support the war in Iraq and our politicians get the idea."
> 
> So, it's okay because we profit from the war despite ourselves? No really. It's a bit more complex than that. Let's just say that there are military, diplomatic, and economic advantages in appearing to remain neutral...even better if Canadians aren't aware of it.



No, I didn't miss the JTF 2 part. Maybe you missed the part of how many them (JTF 2) are actually leaving their units and working for private US 'security' contractors (mercenaries) such as Blackwater. Something like 15%. 

I respect your insight, but the bottom line is that Canada did not join Bush's Coalition of the Willing in a military capacity. Not like we did in the first Persian Gulf War. Chretien's statements had definate negative diplomatic impact on us as a nation and our neutrality was not a mere apparition. 

Our trade relations are with the US are just that. Trade relations. There is no secret high level agenda hinged to with covert ops with Canadian military. But you did broach the subject and suggest that it's complex. Please expand and substantiate these claims. I really am curious.


----------



## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

djem said:


> No, I didn't miss the JTF 2 part. Maybe you missed the part of how many them (JTF 2) are actually leaving their units and working for private US 'security' contractors (mercenaries) such as Blackwater. Something like 15%.
> 
> I respect your insight, but the bottom line is that Canada did not join Bush's Coalition of the Willing in a military capacity. Not like we did in the first Persian Gulf War. Chretien's statements had definate negative diplomatic impact on us as a nation and our neutrality was not a mere apparition.
> 
> Our trade relations are with the US are just that. Trade relations. There is no secret high level agenda hinged to with covert ops with Canadian military. But you did broach the subject and suggest that it's complex. Please expand and substantiate these claims. I really am curious.


Does that 15% work for GardaWorld, the Quebec company that is the fifth largest security firm in the world? It has 5000 employees in the Middle-East, some of which have been kidnapped in Iraq. (Yeah, it's odd when you remember that Canadian firms supposedly weren't allowed to get lucrative contracts in Iraq).

Canadian soldiers have been/are in Iraq on 'exchange programs' with the US (and I'm not talking about Canadians who are members or the US Armed Forces). If the Canadian government really was against the war, why were they allowed to go there?

The point I was making is that reality is much more complex, much different, from the image that Canada tries to cultivate so that it can continue playing the role that it plays within NATO, which that of the ambassador, the peacekeeper.


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Stratin2traynor said:


> I think it is quite obvious - the American government couldn't think of how they could profit from it. Plain and simple. (and this is no reflection of the American people - just the morons that run their country).


Let's assume just for the sake of argument that you are right!

Now, where are all the other morally superior countries that stepped up to the plate?

With such a huge lineup of other countries that helped in Ruanda, surely we can name a few!

Putting someone else down does not put you or your heroes up! It seems to be human nature to forget that. Instead of facing up to our own faults we find another target as a diversion.

When I was a kid and my mother caught me doing wrong my first defence was to cite one of my brothers for doing something worse.

It didn't work any better for me then than American bashing works when we've done little or nothing ourselves today...

:food-smiley-004:


----------



## djem (Sep 14, 2006)

NB-SK said:


> Does that 15% work for GardaWorld, the Quebec company that is the fifth largest security firm in the world? It has 5000 employees in the Middle-East, some of which have been kidnapped in Iraq. (Yeah, it's odd when you remember that Canadian firms supposedly weren't allowed to get lucrative contracts in Iraq).
> 
> Canadian soldiers have been/are in Iraq on 'exchange programs' with the US (and I'm not talking about Canadians who are members or the US Armed Forces). If the Canadian government really was against the war, why were they allowed to go there?
> 
> The point I was making is that reality is much more complex, much different, from the image that Canada tries to cultivate so that it can continue playing the role that it plays within NATO, which that of the ambassador, the peacekeeper.


From my sources, the 15% works for UK and USA based firms and is likely more than 15%. But we are talking about private sector firms here and situations that would not be debateable topics that would be voted on in the House of Commons. The governements function here, and in any free market society, it to regulate and not control. Unless we have embargoes, it's all a free market. Look at all the other nations in Europe that are NATO members that sell their hardware to countries that are not in NATO. The main issue that arises here is ethics. And that's a whole new debate in itself. 

I'm glad you clarified about Canada's role as ambassador. It wasn't clear in your previous post. W.r.t. Iraq we were more or less neutral. W.r.t. Afghanistan we're in deep as a result of US pressure to our current administration. Domestic pressure has now forced the Harper to commit to a specific exit timeline. I'm interested in seeing what will happen early in 2009. I'm also interested in the outcome of our next election. Interesting how we don't see the same campaigning as we did in the springtime, isn't it? Bottom line is that we'll be out before Afghanistan is a normally functioning society. But that really doesn't matter because during the Iraq conflict and according to Bush in 2003 during his address to the troops aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln...*Mission Accomplished*. I don't think I really need to expand on this one.

I would like to tighten my points up a bit and state that my overall theme was to illustrate the efforts of the US administration to lie to the world about it's intents w.r.t. its Foreign Policy wherever they may be involved. And the reason why they are doing the things they are doing is a result of the premature collapse of the U.S.S.R. Remember this was lauded as a 'Western Victory'. Sure it's a victory when only one superpower remains and can go about it's business in the world unchecked, but that can only last for so long. Russia is gathering strength rapidly and providing challenge (ref.: Russia's energy control withing Europe, Russia's red-line policy w.r.t. Kosovo, Russia scrapping it's deals on limiting nuclear weapons production, Russia's posturing w.r.t. US wanting to install missile shields in Czech Rep. and Poland). Then there is the unpredictable North Korea, Iran's uranium enrichment programs and then China. Tied to all these points was a point I made w.r.t. global policies and how many of the problems we are currently faced with are a result of the the Treaty of Versailles. This rapidly drafted agreement and redefinition of international borders failed to look at the long term effects (current global problems) as well as setting the stage for WWII. Remember it only took Germany from 1918 to 1939 to create a war machine that consumed all of Europe. And that was from a country that was forced to pay war reparations after WWI.

Currently, we have only one superpower and the world is in more chaos then it has ever been as a direct result. As I stated before, what is needed is a balance of power.

Another point I would like to make is that some, not all, societies respond better to a non-democratic system due to their culture. Only thorugh decades, perhaps even a century, of modernization, education, etc. will they be ready to receive a democratic government. This is where US Foreign Policy fails because it thinks it can ramble into a country and try to change a culture thats evolved over millenia and 'Americanize' it overnight because they want rapid change that they can capitalize on. The installed puppet government will eventually become incredibly corrupt, even if it wasn't in the first place. Basically, this is just modern day colonization and I deeply object to it.


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

djem said:


> Sure it's a victory when only one superpower remains and can go about it's business in the world unchecked, but that can only last for so long.
> 
> Currently, we have only one superpower and the world is in more chaos then it has ever been as a direct result. As I stated before, what is needed is a balance of power.


You make some good points but to me somthing seems conspicuously absent. Namely, the USSR WAS an evil empire!

With the number of expatriate Russians who have come to Canada since the fall of the USSR, and certainly including people who fled Hungary, Estonia or East Germany surely you must know that the people behind the Iron Curtain suffered grievously! I've spoken to many, some of whom are now close friends. I can truthfully say I've NEVER found one who praised the former system!

That being said, is it not rather callous to wish for a "balance of power" when we in the West are quite comfortable? It's not like WE had to stand in line all day just to buy a turnip!

:food-smiley-004:


----------



## djem (Sep 14, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> You make some good points but to me somthing seems conspicuously absent. Namely, the USSR WAS an evil empire!
> 
> With the number of expatriate Russians who have come to Canada since the fall of the USSR, and certainly including people who fled Hungary, Estonia or East Germany surely you must know that the people behind the Iron Curtain suffered grievously! I've spoken to many, some of whom are now close friends. I can truthfully say I've NEVER found one who praised the former system!
> 
> ...


You mention that the U.S.S.R. was evil, but remember they were more instrumental in defeating the Nazis than the US during WWII. Ref.: Battle of Stalingrad.

Here's a link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad

So if they are evil, how evil is the US with what it's doing in Iraq? How many innocent Iraqis have died as a result of the 'Abomination of the Willing' invasion of 2003? Currently the number is at 655,000.

Here's a Washington Post link for your reading: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001442.html (and I don't even like the Washington Post because of its biased reporting :wink:

I can guarantee you that this many people would not have died if Saddam was still ruling. This ties into my point (see my previous post) of evolving democracy over a longer period of time; not sticking it up their ass so you can make money from it.

Having a balance of power in not a callous wish. It's actually the lesser of two evils. As I said before, the world is in chaos like it has never seen before soley due to having only one superpower.

Thanks for the positive on my points; I take my politics and _*accurate*_ reporting of world history quite seriously. It's too bad we can't learn from this history. Also, and most importantly, thank God I live in Canada :smilie_flagge17:


----------



## I_cant_play (Jun 26, 2006)

djem,

I just wanted to say, I found your posts very informative and also well written.

:smile:


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

djem said:


> You mention that the U.S.S.R. was evil, but remember they were more instrumental in defeating the Nazis than the US during WWII. Ref.: Battle of Stalingrad.


I don't quite see the connection. They were also at war with the Nazis. How does this in itself make them good or evil? My understanding is that Russian defended itself, period. Who wouldn't?



djem said:


> So if they are evil, how evil is the US with what it's doing in Iraq? How many innocent Iraqis have died as a result of the 'Abomination of the Willing' invasion of 2003? Currently the number is at 655,000.


Stalin killed far more of HIS OWN people than Hitler ever did! Four to five times YOUR number for Iraq!

Ask any Ukrainian...




djem said:


> Having a balance of power in not a callous wish. It's actually the lesser of two evils. As I said before, the world is in chaos like it has never seen before soley due to having only one superpower.
> 
> Thanks for the positive on my points; I take my politics and _*accurate*_ reporting of world history quite seriously. It's too bad we can't learn from this history. Also, and most importantly, thank God I live in Canada :smilie_flagge17:


Thank God we both live in Canada! If we had lived under Stalin we either never would have had such a discussion or would have been shot or imprisoned for it.

I agree that more than one superpower can be a positive situation but preferably it should be with competing true democracies.

I just can't help but feel for those killed and starved under Stalin, or that brave young man who stood in front of a tank in Tiamenen Square. If there was a positive in those days of "balance", the price was paid by those and those like them. 

We enjoyed the balance for free...

:food-smiley-004:


----------



## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

This is slight hijack, but I like it. It has a music track. Just click:

http://decider.cf.huffingtonpost.com/


----------



## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

I'm just skimming posts here, so forgive me if I've fallen off the tracks.

The world needs more than one superpower. It would be nice to have two of them with neither of them stupid enough to get us all killed.

Having one superpower is kind of like going with one political party in Canada - one fool at a party really isn't all that fun.

Socialists, Communists or Dictatorships are not evil - they are just different forms of governments that work for different people in different conditions. 

Some people might say that dictators are evil, I'm not sure that's the case. So what if there is a rule that says you live by my will, and if you don't like it get the hell out or I'll kill you....


----------



## djem (Sep 14, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> I don't quite see the connection. They were also at war with the Nazis. How does this in itself make them good or evil? My understanding is that Russian defended itself, period. Who wouldn't?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I appreciate your emotional directed commentary, but I am not out to argue military history and politics. I'm simply stating fact and the main fact being that the global community requires power balance. You seem quite forceful with your, "what about this and what about that" approach and that's valid if you are doing it to try and learn or join in open debate. I'm just trying to illustrate some key points that usually do not make mainstream media, but are well known and discussed topics in intellectual circles.

Commenting on your points:

The Soviet Union was our ally in WWII. They were the largest contributing force of what is known as 'The Big Three' (U.S.S.R., US & UK). To say they were just merely defending themselves is historically and politically wrong.

What has happened in history has happened. But what is *currently happening* is another thing especially when precedents have been set, international conventions, laws, UN resolutions, etc. So enter the US who was instrumental in making these rules now feel they have the God given right to break the same fundamental international laws and conventions. That's what I take exception to. And that's been my main point all along.

And power balance doesn't necessarily mean only two superpowers, it can be more. Keep your eye on China and remember Napoleon's quote which will ring true soon enough. As I've said before democracy does not work for every society; it's a mindset that has to gradually evolve and not be forced; something the US apparently doesn't realize.

Canada did not enjoy the balance for free - we fought alongside all the world powers and I think you realize that.


----------



## djem (Sep 14, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> This is slight hijack, but I like it. It has a music track. Just click:
> 
> http://decider.cf.huffingtonpost.com/



Good one. Thing is we really can't blame him. He's just the jockey. We have to blame those that feed and groom his horse.


----------



## djem (Sep 14, 2006)

I_cant_play said:


> djem,
> 
> I just wanted to say, I found your posts very informative and also well written.
> 
> :smile:


Glad you enjoyed them.


----------



## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

Speaking of Canada and WW2, here's an excerpt of Mackenzie King's diary that was written while he was on his official visit to Berlin in 1937. It's a fascinating read.


http://www.junobeach.org/e/2/can-eve-eve-agr-kin-e.htm


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

djem said:


> Glad you enjoyed them.



Moi aussi! Although I still don't agree with all your points it's refreshing to debate with someone who argues in a civilized manner!

THAT'S what we need in this forum!:smile:

:food-smiley-004:


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Moi aussi! Although I still don't agree with all your points it's refreshing to debate with someone who argues in a civilized manner!
> THAT'S what we need in this forum!:smile:
> :food-smiley-004:



...this is the only forum i know of were people discuss sensitive issues in such a civilized manner.

:smilie_flagge17: indeed!!!

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...you know what would be really interesting, not to mention educational?
> 
> to be able to watch comedians from other countries doing schtick on north americans, with english subtitles.
> 
> comedy is always full of essential truths. it would be amazing to see how other cultures perceive us. -dh



...speaking of which, i heard an absolutely astounding george carlin rant about "stupid americans" this morning on the comedy channel on xm radio.

wow! that guy does not pull any punches.

-dh


----------



## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

Wild Bill said:


> I don't quite see the connection. They were also at war with the Nazis. How does this in itself make them good or evil? My understanding is that Russian defended itself, period. Who wouldn't?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

:wink:


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

NB-SK said:


> "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
> 
> :wink:


True! I've pondered that tendency before, since I find it very easy to do myself.

There seem to be two more common reasons. One is simple emotionalism, where someone makes the comparison as an attack. Usually it's ad hominem, where they compare their opponent to a Nazi in an attempt to smear a bit of their bad rep on him. As in "Every one knows rightwingers are all racists!" Or where they want to inflate the importance of their own pet cow, as in "the loss of unborn baby whales from drunk drivers and global warming is truly a Holocaust!"

The other would seem to be a more simple technique of taking your opponent's point to an extreme conclusion, in order to illustrate how while it may not be of the same degree it's still wrong. As with supporting a political idea that could conceivably start off innocuous but easily mushroom into something totalitarian.

I rather like the latter, since I find that usually most dangerous suggestions come from a good heart that simply didn't have it thought all the way through. If you want to be a social engineer (and those folks frankly scare the hell outta me!) you better be smart enough to see ALL the consequences! Most folks are lucky if they can see even one move ahead with a chess game. With political stuff it may take ten moves before a change leads to something negative but it can turn out to be REALLY negative!

The problem with having society tell you how to live your life is that society is not the one who suffers any consequences of a wrong approach. It's YOU who suffers! Like abandoning phonics in the 80's in grade school and rearing a generation of poor readers. (How's that for a generalization, albeit one with some fact behind it:smile

Anyhow, so far I haven't found any examples that don't fall into one or the other category. Perhaps you've got some different ones to share...

:food-smiley-004:


----------

