# Soundman rant!!



## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

What is the problem with so many soundmen that they crank the low frequencies to the point where you can no longer hear the music? 

Went to see Joe Satriani in Kelowna the other nite. It was a good show and Joe is fun to watch and listen to. Besides the fact that the sound was blisteringly loud, which I don't like, but I am happy to wear ear protection, the soundman had the bass frequencies pumped so that they entirely overwhelmed the sound with a constant boomy hum, the music was drowned in it. 

When the drums and bass guitar were cookin' there was no way to hear any of the keyboard and even alot of what Joe was playing, esp if he ventured into low note territory. It was brutal. You could see the guys running around and playing their hearts out on stage, but the music was lost. Esp for the keyboard player, I could only hear his music a couple of times during the evening when the bass and drums had backed off. seriously! I would be so pissed if I were him, what is the point of playing? 

It was not like I could distinguish what the bass player and drummer were doing either. I could not hear the bass player's notes, just a big wash of low boom/hum as he played away. I want to hear the bass player, I want to the thud of the kick drum, but it was all lost. 

I have had so many soundmen ruin shows for me, sometimes when they are mixing sound for my bands as well, by drowning out the music in this way. I like a good hard bass thump as much as anyone, esp for the kind of music Satriani does, but all I hear instead is a steady whooof of low frequencies. I don't even mind if it is uncomfortably loud, as long as I can hear the singing and playing. 

Went to see Alanis Morrisette in Vancouver a while back, she was playing in a theatre with fantastic acoustics, I only heard her singing twice that nite - and I went to hear that girl's voice, what a singer! - once when it was just her voice and an acoustic guitar, the other time she was singing with just the keyboards. The rest of the nite she was bouncing around singing and screaching into the mic and all I heard was noise, her voice and melody were lost, nevermind trying to catch the lyrics. 

Because this has happened so often, I always try to get tickets right up front, in front of the stage and away from the PA system so I pick up mostly the stage levels. I know that the musicians on stage do not hear the same thing. I have had people come up to me after shows that were poorly mixed and they would comment on how they couldn't hear the guitar or the vocals or keyboards, and I had no idea. Now I go out with my wireless and get the soundman to adjust it they way I want. 

What is up here really? Are all these soundmen deaf in some way, there is no way he could hear the keyboards any better than I could, does he not see the keyboard player up there banging away and wonder, like I do, what it might sound like? 

I mean, everyone else in the theatre seemed to be enjoying themselves,... is it just me? 

OK Rant over, ... but I do want to know, is it just me?


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i do sound at my church. they seem to like it with the piano and piano vocal overpowering everyone else. i've been going there for well over a year, and i don't think i've ever heard the guitar players, unless i solo'd their channel through the headphones. i don't know why they insist on it that way, but they do.


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## Guest (Jan 8, 2011)

On the flip side Phish have, IMO, perfected live sound. In the past 10 years no other act I've seen has been able to touch their live sound. Amazing clarity at high volume. Every instrument detailed and discernible.

I post this to say: it can be done. You can have loud live sound, sound good.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

iaresee said:


> On the flip side Phish have, IMO, perfected live sound. In the past 10 years no other act I've seen has been able to touch their live sound. Amazing clarity at high volume. Every instrument detailed and discernible.
> 
> I post this to say: it can be done. You can have loud live sound, sound good.


I have never seen Phish, but I have indeed seen some very good live shows where the sound was clear and "Every instrument detailed and discernible" as you say, and that is what I like to hear. My complaint goes to my experience that more than a few of the soundmen have ruined shows in exactly the same way - too much low frequency boom.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Well, good help is hard to find these days. Obviously, that included sound men. Maybe they were good once and have become "deaf men".


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

Most sound men are OK at best, sometimes you get that perfect one that can get the mix right and knows what you're going for. I have no love for the guy who thought me slapping my bass meant for him to change his levels to make me sound like mud. I always try to be nice to them, but when they're bad it's a waste of time. The worst one I saw was a show by a local band, they had to hire a different guy about an hour before the show. Proper sin, a bad sound man can kill a great live band.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Sometimes, especially in small venues, the problem is that the players have the stage volume way to high - then there's not much the soundman can do, except maybe to try to convince the players to turn it down.

And sometimes the room is just unsuitable and you get low end standing waves.

But, yeah, usually its the sound guy. (But you also get what you pay for - good sound guys don't usually work for free beer.)


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

bw66 said:


> Sometimes, especially in small venues, the problem is that the players have the stage volume way to high - then there's not much the soundman can do, except maybe to try to convince the players to turn it down.
> 
> And sometimes the room is just unsuitable and you get low end standing waves.
> 
> But, yeah, usually its the sound guy. (But you also get what you pay for - good sound guys don't usually work for free beer.)


Agreed, different rooms present different issues that the soundman has to deal with - but that is his job! And it ain't rocket science. I have seen different acts in the same room with very different results, rooms can be managed. 

Also true about the stage volume, for smaller venues in particular, that wasn't the issue the other nite with Satch though, the FOH volume could have buried a the sound of a train passing over the stage...


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

I`ve noticed this has been something that`s been going for the last few years now. I believe it is the result of how recordings are being mixed nowadays with lots of focus on the bass. And when you got someone who's been exposed to this kind of sound mastering, the tendency is to do exactly the same thing. Some are also former DJs who moved on to doing sound in live venues, and you know how dance music is played, lots of bass and nothing else. I'm not dissing DJs but that's just how it is. Have you ever been to a dance club recently where you can actually hear anything else except the bass? Probably not. So this could be one of the reasons why some of the live performances sound the way it is.


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## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

at the metallica show I went to last Oct in Ottawa......I felt like I was getting assaulted by bass...it was so much

ok - ya it was metallica and they're supposed to be loud......maybe I'm getting old too....but wow - I really felt beat up when the show was done


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

One thing to consider is that in MANY venues, there are some areas that trap bass. If the console happens to be located outside of one of these areas and you happen to be sitting in one.....

I'm not saying that's the only reason there may be too much bottom end in a room, but it definitely has an effect.

For a show as big as Satch I would think that would take this into consideration.

The truth is, there are precious few really good FOH technicians.

That's one reason the good ones are so busy.


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

And sometimes it's just showing off the gear. Back in the '80s it was all about top end....ear splitting brittle highs, just to show off the horns' abilities. "Mine can go higher than yours can."


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## Rahlstin (Jan 4, 2011)

This new years eve we played a hall where the front end was so loud it fully overpowerd the stage and I couldnt hear my Marshall (DSL100) with out turning it up way over my normal stage volume which just adds to the noise.... (We dont run guitars in the monitors to help reduce stage noise, vocals and keys only, works for us real good most places) All I could hear was what bounced back fr the mains which of course had a bit of delay to it.... and was difficult to dicern what was what. When the dance floor filled, this corrected itself somewhat but the sound guy instead of adding or taking away what and wasnt needed, just poured more juice to it. At the first break we approched him with the same thing, "please turn it down a bit" "We'll all enjoy it alot better". What amazies me is when I wander over to the area the sound guy is at, and all I can hear is noise, how this person thinks it sounds good. When you need 20-30db cut ear plugs to try and hear what is being sung, man, its way too loud. Best live show Ive ever heard in my life was in 1991, Poison tour in Calgary. (Wife and i first date...lol i knew if she stayed with me after that it might just work out) That show had amazing sound especially for a hockey arena, it was decently loud, it was very clear tone, I could hear everything, even the mistakes sounded cool.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

some good feedback here guys, thanks, glad to know it is not just me...


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

How about a rant from a soundguy who constantly deals with diva musicians, who have no concept of how a band works and only want "more me" and insist on playing a 50 kilowatt amplifier (firing directly at their legs and into the ears of the front row) on a 8' x 10' stage and can't understand why they can't hear their vocals in the monitors? 

If more bands considered the soundguy as part of the band and actually took some advice offered to provide a better experience for all.......

Rant over


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

ronmac said:


> How about a rant from a soundguy who constantly deals with diva musicians, who have no concept of how a band works and only want "more me" and insist on playing a 50 kilowatt amplifier (firing directly at their legs and into the ears of the front row) on a 8' x 10' stage and can't understand why they can't hear their vocals in the monitors?
> 
> If more bands considered the soundguy as part of the band and actually took some advice offered to provide a better experience for all.......
> 
> Rant over


Fair comment.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

ronmac said:


> how about a rant from a soundguy who constantly deals with diva musicians, who have no concept of how a band works and only want "more me" and insist on playing a 50 kilowatt amplifier (firing directly at their legs and into the ears of the front row) on a 8' x 10' stage and can't understand why they can't hear their vocals in the monitors?
> 
> If more bands considered the soundguy as part of the band and actually took some advice offered to provide a better experience for all.......
> 
> Rant over


fair enough, i too have seen alot of that going on for sure. I'll admit that i was one of those musicians on a few occassions too. Now i know what it takes to make good sound and i get involved and work with the soundman. And it really is a treat to work with the good ones. 

Still, an important point with my rant has to do with the fact that we are talking major acts and audiences paying in the $100 a ticket range for these shows. This ain't the local band at the community hall gig here where you see alot of the dj type soundmen messing up a good gig or decent soundmen having to deal with inexperienced musicians on stage. This i expect. 

Saw jesse cooke in the same theatre a couple of times, the sound was phenomenal!

Here is a question, would an act like satriani or cooke have his own sound guy or hire as they go?

I just had a thought. I reviewed all the acts i have seen in recent years and realized that all the ones that had poor (bassy) sound quality were rock/hard rock acts. Sarah mcclaughlan, jesse cooke, joe cocker - all excellent sound... Mmm


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

bluesmostly said:


> Saw jesse cooke in the same theatre a couple of times, the sound was phenomenal!
> 
> Here is a question, would an act like satriani or cooke have his own sound guy or hire as they go?


Good point, if its a union venue, you may may have to take whoever you get.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ronmac said:


> How about a rant from a soundguy who constantly deals with diva musicians, who have no concept of how a band works and only want "more me" and insist on playing a 50 kilowatt amplifier (firing directly at their legs and into the ears of the front row) on a 8' x 10' stage and can't understand why they can't hear their vocals in the monitors?
> 
> If more bands considered the soundguy as part of the band and actually took some advice offered to provide a better experience for all.......
> 
> Rant over



Thank you.

If I had a nickel for every guitarist who pointed a 4 X 12 at his legs and then blasted the front rows I'd be a lot wealthier than I am.

SIDE WASH fellas!


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Thank you.
> 
> If I had a nickel for every guitarist who pointed a 4 X 12 at his legs and then blasted the front rows I'd be a lot wealthier than I am.
> 
> SIDE WASH fellas!


Yup, I have been blasted by a few guitar amps myself while in the crowd. When I was using guitar cabs I would either tilt them back to point up at me or use a plexi shield in front of the cab - that seemed to work the best for everyone on stage and the sound out front.


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