# Proof of Concept and Scratching an Itch



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I have always wanted to try a humbucker in the neck of my Casino Coupe.

A simple DIY pickup "holder" ( made from orthotic/prosthetic "plastic" sheet material of some sort) , one solder joint, and.... voilà!

No alteration/enlargement needed to be made to the rout. 
(N.B. This would not be the case if the humbucker had a cover)

Shorter height adjustment screws were essential. I substituted the height adjustment springs with rubber tubing as the springs were a bit too large for the shorter screws.

My thanks to @laristotle for the pickup and for his ongoing interest in this experiment.

Thanks to @Hamstrung for the thread title.

The next project is to make a decent looking pickup holder...probably from wood.

I would imagine that @Robert1950 and @Scotty will be interested in this thread as they are also Casino Coupe owners.

Sorry about the terrible pics...


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2018)

She ain't purty, but ... how does it sound?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I haven't had much time to try it. However, the humbucker seems to have fuller, thicker tone. I need to try it quite a bit more and likely lower (?) the pickup height.


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## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

Set the height so it matches the bridge pickup output.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

greco said:


> The next project is to make a decent looking pickup holder...probably from wood


I'd appreciate any suggestions form the woodworkers in the forum.
I have some 1/4" hardwood but I'm wondering if thin plywood would be a better choice. That area of the guitar top is quite flat and there are very few significant forces going through the pickup holder but I am a bit concerned about it splitting along the grain (as shown by white lines)










I have questioned using lexan or copper clad board. I do not want to use metal.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Cheers

Dave


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

since the beginning of time it has been said that a square peg will not fit into a round hole.
Dave....you have managed to prove them all wrong....congrats.
Now you just have to make it look pretty.
G.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

GTmaker said:


> since the beginning of time it has been said that a square peg will not fit into a round hole.


"Never say never and never say always"
(quote from one of my teachers in England)


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

It lives!


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2018)

Cut up a dog ear pup cover?


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## nnieman (Jun 19, 2013)

I would make it out of hardwood.... if it does break- then remake it out of ply.

Ideally you would make it out of veneer, 3 layers glued cross grain to each other.
That would be as strong as ply.

Solid wood that thin (I’m assuming thinner than 1/4”) won’t move too much & you will probably be fine.

Nathan


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## Ayr Guitars (Oct 24, 2016)

What did the cavity look like before the humbucker was put in? Was it a standard dog ear p90 rout?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

nnieman said:


> Solid wood that thin (I’m assuming thinner than 1/4”) won’t move too much & you will probably be fine.


Thanks Nathan. The wood I have available is just under 1/4" thick.



Ayr Guitars said:


> What did the cavity look like before the humbucker was put in? Was it a standard dog ear p90 rout?


The dog ear P90 rout dimensions for this guitar seem larger than I think is typical. I'm quite sure this pickup is not all that standard. However, I could be totally wrong.@Robert1950 knows more about this as he had his stock Epi Casino Coupe P90 rewound by Vineham (IIRC).


laristotle said:


> Cut up a dog ear pup cover?


I'm quite sure I read about this in the past. There is very little room in general and I think the adjustment screw holes were an issue.


















I really should be spending my time learning to play the guitar and not tearing it apart. This is just too much fun and I am insatiably curious.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2018)

greco said:


> There is very little room in general and I think the adjustment screw holes were an issue.


You'd have to drill them, if there's room.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

laristotle said:


> ...if there's room.


IIRC, that is the issue.

I'll have to look more closely as that is the best rout/route (pun is intended) by far.

BTW..Very impressive work..adding screw heads to the pic!


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Casino Dogear Pickups according to Lollar.........

*CASINO:*

The Epiphone Casino (also the Wildcat) is a "whole different animal" although it looks a lot like a standard dogear set.

Your first decision is whether or not you want to use the chrome covers. Something to consider is that with plastic covers the pickup will have a little more high end because the metal covers will reduce the top end a little bit. Also, the metal covers have a tendency to feed back microphonically, even if the pickups are potted to an extreme.

If you decide to stay with the chrome covers, you will need to send in the entire unit: cover and chassis. On some versions the lead wire is built with a clip type connector at the end of the lead wire. This connector has two halves: half is attached to the guitar wiring and half is attached to the pickup lead wire. If yours is built with this type of connector, leave the pickup half of the connector attached to the lead wire and send in the entire assembly - pickup, chassis, cover, leadwire with clip. On a Casino set we re-use both the covers and the chassis. We basically "gut" the pickup and build a new p90 into what you send us.

If you want to change to the plastic covers, the process is different. As you know the standard chrome cover/set up on the Casino typically has quite a slant or slope to it, especially on the neck. We prefer the way our replacement pickups fit on the guitar body. They attach to sit parallel to the arched top, and provide a close alignment of the pole pieces and the strings.

For a replacement for Casino neck we use a short neck with a 1/8" shim and an optional 1/32" shim. For a replacement for Casino bridge we use a standard (tall) bridge, no shim.

If you send in your Casino set for re-use of the chrome covers, turnaround time is around a week to 10 days, after we receive them. The re-builds are $210 for a standard set, plus shipping - or $110 for a single pickup. '50's Wind are $250 a set, or $125 for a single pickup.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I would have thought the "natural place for adding a humbucker to that guitar would be the bridge position.

One thing I've wondered about is what a P90 would sound like with one of the magnets removed. A stock P90 has two bar magnets coupled to the centre block, such that the adjustable screws are opposite pole to the edge of the two bar magnets coming out the sides.

I would suggest a different baseplate for the neck HB, but I understand that baseplate material is also important. So unless you could find one that is of similar material, but a bit "leaner", you would be stuck with the opening and setup you have, OR enlarging the opening. BTW, just how much more would that opening have to be to fit an HB with cover?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mhammer said:


> I would have thought the "natural place for adding a humbucker to that guitar would be the bridge position.


I never use the bridge pickup.



mhammer said:


> BTW, just how much more would that opening have to be to fit an HB with cover?


It would require removing about 1/16" of wood along the side facing/nearest the bridge pickup. That would be fine, except the gap would likely (almost certainly) show if I put it back to the stock P90. 
Why do you ask? (just curious...it was my curiosity that got me into this in the first place...LOL)


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I asked just to find out if the modification was merely a simple nuisance or something more substantive...which it appears to be.

A concommitant question: are plastic P90 covers a little "wider" than metal? That is, would a plastic dogear pickup cover compensate for the additional 1/16"?


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

The Gibson equivalent to the Casino Coupe is the ES390. This has been issued with both Dogear P90s and Mini-humbuckers. I have often wondered if a Casino Coupe could be retrofitted with mini-hums. It sounds like the cut in top might be a little big, assuming I have read this correctly.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Robert1950 said:


> The Gibson equivalent to the Casino Coupe is the ES390. This has been issued with both Dogear P90s and Mini-humbuckers. I have often wondered if a Casino Coupe could be retrofitted with mini-hums. It sounds like the cut in top might be a little big, assuming I have read this correctly.


Much easier than what I'm doing and has been done by a few.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mhammer said:


> A concommitant question: are plastic P90 covers a little "wider" than metal? That is, would a plastic dogear pickup cover compensate for the additional 1/16"?


Possibly...it makes sense from a material perspective (i.e., metal vs plastic). However, these P90s seem to be somewhat atypical/unique.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

Instead of building something custom, have you thought about using a dogear-sized humbucker? I have one I've yet to install, if you wanted to do a little experimentation some evening.



greco said:


> I never use the bridge pickup.


*GASP! *I'm the opposite, but I mostly play with dirty tones. The neck pickup (if there is one) is my "clean pickup".


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

*Where ?!?!? How much?!?!?*



greco said:


> Much easier than what I'm doing and has been done by a few.


Now all I need to do is get out the $500 in the hole for the gear account and save enough for another Casino Coupe Used !!!1


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

troyhead said:


> Instead of building something custom, have you thought about using a dogear-sized humbucker? I have one I've yet to install, if you wanted to do a little experimentation some evening.
> 
> *GASP! *I'm the opposite, but I mostly play with dirty tones. The neck pickup (if there is one) is my "clean pickup".


Thanks for posting about this.
What is the make and model of the dog ear sized pickup? This sounds interesting and I'd like to check the dimensions.
Is it one of these from Seymour Duncan?









or one of these Dogsmith pickups by Rautia?








Sure, it would be great to see you again. Almost any evening is typically good.
I'll make sure the bridge pickup is still working for your visit. Unfortunately, the amp is super clean without pedals. Sorry...it is this jazz thing that I'm interested in...LOL


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Robert1950 said:


> *Where ?!?!? How much?!?!?*
> 
> Now all I need to do is get out the $500 in the hole for the gear account and save enough for another Casino Coupe Used !!!1


The pickup in the pic was a custom job (AFAIK)
Have a look here and follow up on the pics:
mini humbucker in dog ear P90 - Google Search:
Good luck finding a used Casino Coupe. They don't seem to show up for sale very often AFAIK.


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## Guest (Sep 5, 2018)

Too bad you weren't out this ways.

Epiphone Casino Coupe VS *Mint* $350


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I know that Seymour Duncan Custom shop makes these, but damn they are expensive. $320US a set.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

L&M Toronto Attic Sale recently had a black casino coupe used for $300. I would have put myself $800 in the red for that.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Dogsmith min-hum dogears are 280Euros a set


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Robert1950 said:


> L&M Toronto Attic Sale recently had a black casino coupe used for $300. I would have put myself $800 in the red for that.





Robert1950 said:


> Dogsmith min-hum dogears are 280Euros a set


Now you see why I'm going the "cobbled together" approach.

@laristotle is such a kind and generous friend...he donated the humbucker pickup to this branch of audio research/experimentation.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Given that it will take time to put my gear account into the black, I can take time to find a dogear adapters for mini-hums first. Just like I picked up a dual humbucker pickguard for a future (possibly very future)project.


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## nnieman (Jun 19, 2013)

If a mini humbucker is out of the question, (but I do think its a great option),Mini-Humbucker
I suggest one of these
P-90 Pickups

Lots of humbucking options in a p90 shape.

Remember the humbucker was created to sound like a noiseless p90 - a paf style pickup and a p90 aren't terribly different. (That is my opinion and it might be controversial lol).

Nathan


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

This thread has been fun and very educational. Thanks to everyone that contributed.
I will soon be putting my "experiment" back to original and will then try to sort out a reasonably easy, solid, inexpensive and more aesthetically pleasing way of mounting a neck humbucker into this guitar.

Cheers

Dave


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

greco said:


> Thanks for posting about this.
> What is the make and model of the dog ear sized pickup?


It’s one of these:
Mojotone

I’ll send you a PM and see if we can sort something out, maybe next week (if you can wait that long!) or later this week if I can get some free time.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

troyhead said:


> It’s one of these:
> Mojotone


Did you read this in the "Comments" in the link:

_Decided to upgrade the electronics on my *casino coupe (same guitar as @greco 's).* Wanted some quieter P90s. It was either these or the Kinman P90s.The demos sounded good, so I ordered your dogear quiet coils. *Although my luthier had to do some work to get the neck pickup to fit (required some sanding, a different cover, and shims for both pickups),* the end result is just about perfect._


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

greco said:


> *Although my luthier had to do some work to get the neck pickup to fit (required some sanding, a different cover, and shims for both pickups),* the end result is just about perfect.


D’oh! We wouldn’t want you to do any modifications just to test it out. Although I suspect that any standard P90-sized pickup might require some adjustment to fit as the Casino might be a bit unique. Also, these aren’t exactly “inexpensive”.

The link does have a diagram with some exact measurements, in case your Casino is a little different than someone else’s. Also, Mojotone does sell the shims too for cheap, in case you needed them.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

nnieman said:


> Remember the humbucker was created to sound like a noiseless p90 - a paf style pickup and a p90 aren't terribly different. (That is my opinion and it might be controversial lol).


I didn't know this. The reason for this entire experiment was to see if the humbuckers provided a somewhat fuller/thicker tone. I have virtually no hum from the P90s. Maybe my old, tinnitus stricken ears are just hearing what I want them to/am hoping for...LOL.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

troyhead said:


> D’oh! We wouldn’t want you to do any modifications just to test it out. Although I suspect that any standard P90-sized pickup might require some adjustment to fit as the Casino might be a bit unique. Also, these aren’t exactly “inexpensive”.


Are you teasing me with _"D’oh! We wouldn’t want you to do any modifications just to test it out." _(given what I have done so far...LOL)

I suspect that the 1.57" and/or the .720 dimensions *might* be the problem.









PM me and we can set up something.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

The reason has to do with odd dimensions of neck pickup. (see above post on Lollar explanation) I talked to Craig Vineham and he said it was just easier to get them rebuilt (and cheaper) using the Casino neck pickup cover and bobbin and such. Below was what you had to do to get a regular dimensioned dog ear neck P90 (noiseless in this case) to fit a Casino. Kinman pickups ain't cheap either.



greco said:


> _Decided to upgrade the electronics on my *casino coupe (same guitar as @greco 's).* Wanted some quieter P90s. It was either these or the Kinman P90s.The demos sounded good, so I ordered your dogear quiet coils. *Although my luthier had to do some work to get the neck pickup to fit (required some sanding, a different cover, and shims for both pickups),* the end result is just about perfect._


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