# Upgrading Transformers... Worth it?



## KV242 (Jan 6, 2013)

I have an Egnater Tweeker 40 head, and after nearly a year of playing/noodling/tweaking, and an upgrade/change of tubes (6L6 -> EL34B) with a hotter bias, I've finally gotten very close to the killer tone I've long been after. So much so that I've dropped my O/D pedals and aside from wah and boost play straight into the amp. I've recently read some bits here and there that state that the transformers are at the very heart of the tone that an amp produces. While my Tweaker 40 hasn't failed to impress audience and players alike with its tone, I have to wonder if an upgrade in PT and OT would improve the performance and tone. To my knowledge, the transformers that the Tweaker is supplied with are low cost Chinese models, and I've already had one quit on me back in March, which apparently is a known issue (can't recall if it was the PT or OT). It was replaced (under warranty - which is now over) with an improved design. I know Mercury Magnetics make both PT and OT replacements for the Tweaker 40 for $160 and $145 respectively. So my question to those with the knowledge, experience and expertise is, IS IT WORTH THE UPGRADE? Will I notice and appreciate the difference? And if so, are there any other manufacturers I should be aware of? Thanks in advance for any all help!


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

I'd be surprised if there was substantial difference... incremental probably. Did you notice any change with the 'improved' replacement unit? Of the the two, the OT would make the bigger difference I think.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Don't bother with the PT. It is not part of the tone! It supplies operating voltages but except for some possible sag (very unlikely with an Egnator!) it has SFA to do with the tone.

The OT is another matter. It has been generally agreed that an OT can make a difference of perhaps 30% of the tone. Now, I would really like to know how that figure was measured, since tone is purely a matter of opinion! Can't imagine a piece of test equipment labelled "Opinion Meter".

Also, 30% starting from where? It all depends on just how good or bad is that Chinese OT.

Still, if I had the money to spare I would probably replace the OT with one from Mercury Magnetics. If nothing else, it probably would be a LOT more reliable! MM also understands about rock and roll tone much better than those Chinese factory guys.

If you ARE on a budget, you might consider Hammond transformers. What tubes does your Egnator use? A pair of 6L6s if my old memory is working at the moment. Hammond is now making very good quality trannie replacements for the main Vintage models of Marshall, Fender and even Traynor! Just choose an OT for an amp that also used a pair of 6L6s and the impedances should match quite well. Hammond trannies are legendary for quality and ruggedness and their pricing is VERY competitive, since they are made in Guelph - giving the advantage against MM and other Americans, escaping duties, brokerage fees and shipping costs. Trannies are heavy!

You can get Hammond from Electosonic on Victoria Park, although they might have to order it in. They are on the net if you dig a bit. You can phone or visit their counter. The counter tends to have a lineup.

If you are not sure about your trannie choice, check back here and we can help you with the research.

Wild Bill/Busen Amps


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Excellent suggestions, Bill. The performance gains compared to the cost for the MM OT would not be worth it in my opinion, but Hammond may be much more reasonable.
With MM you are paying a lot extra just for the name/marketing.


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## Greg Ellis (Oct 1, 2007)

KV242 said:


> While my Tweaker 40 has failed to impress audience and players alike with its tone...


Is there something in particular that people don't like about the amp?

It seems unlikely that a transformer is going to make a big difference. Not big enough to "fix" a tone that "fails to impress". 

It's about a $650 amp, if I'm not mistaken. Likely very tight inside too. Not sure it's worth the trouble.

Are you planning to do the work yourself? Or pay someone else to do it? 

I think I'd be inclined to test drive some other amps before you settle on this particular course of action.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

I have two Vox (Korg) AC30TB's from the '90's. Both are part of my rental fleet. Both have MM output transformers in them. I feel they approximate the original AC30 sound more accurately but most importantly, they're far more reliable than the Dagnall iron they came with.
Since I have done considerable business with MM, I get pretty reasonable pricing from them.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

I find MM to be overpriced and overhhyped. There are far better alternatives, especially in the tone department. I've dealt with hammond, heyboer and MM. Hammond and Heyboer are the best IMO. I'm sure that Hammond has a replacement OT they could sell you. 
Do you have the dimensions and spacing of the mounting holes?


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

nonreverb said:


> Since I have done considerable business with MM, I get pretty reasonable pricing from them.


Yes, me too, it's just that shipping that iron from CA costs a bloody fortune. MM has absolutely the largest variety and "flavours" of transformers of any manufacturer and the tone is, in my opinion, as good and probably better than anything else I've tried and I've pretty much tried everything.


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## sorbz62 (Nov 15, 2011)

KV242 said:


> While my Tweaker 40 has failed to impress audience and players alike with its tone


I think you mean "While my Tweaker 40 has *NOT *failed to impress audience and players alike with its tone"

What you're saying is that it sounds shit.


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## KV242 (Jan 6, 2013)

Yeah guys, that was a typo. Meant to say the amp has NOT failed to impress. kqoct


I really appreciate the input, suggestions and opinions. Some great advice and good food for thought. First and foremost, I hadn't considered the cost of shipping a trannie from the US. That in itself has begun to turn me away from the MM. Besides, I like to support they Canadian guy and keep my dollars in Canada whenever I can, so now that I'm aware of Hammond trannies and their reputation, I'm definitely going to look more into them. The Tweaker does come with 6L6's, but will take any octal tube. I have mine running EL34's now. So I'm sure impedance matching, as you mention Wild Bill, shouldn't be a problem then. Plus if I could save a few bucks, that would a bonus too! And I would be doing the work myself Greg, so as far as expense goes, I'd be sparing the labour costs as well. But I agree that putting $300 into a $600 amp doesn't make great sense, especially if the gains are only incremental. As far as noticing a difference after having the new trannie put in, I can't say I noticed any, other than one worked and the other didn't! LOL I don't think there was a big difference between the two though. Only a design flaw being addressed to prevent premature failure. Apparently it was somewhat common. (I can't recall what the flaw was.)

The Tweaker is a smaller head cab, but there is still a fair bit of room in there, so I don't see it being too much of a problem fitting a replacement trannie in there. Height is probably the biggest restriction. The Tung Sol EL34B's I put in there get pretty close to the top, compared the JJ 6L6's that were in there. So that aspect I will have to keep in mind. I will also have to consider mounting (screw holes, etc).


Like I said, great input, suggestions, opinions and advice. I appreciate it! Given me lots to think about and some homework to do. Plus still consider if it's even worth the expense in the first place. I'll keep this thread alive and post any updates and further questions I may have along the way.

Thanks again!
Kevin


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

LydianGuitars said:


> I find MM to be overpriced and overhhyped. There are far better alternatives, especially in the tone department. I've dealt with hammond, heyboer and MM. Hammond and Heyboer are the best IMO. I'm sure that Hammond has a replacement OT they could sell you.
> Do you have the dimensions and spacing of the mounting holes?


I have tried both Hammond and Heyboer on several occasions and they're fine transformers but to state they are "far Better" would be at the least inaccurate. MM makes excellent transformers and they're selection is second to none.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

nonreverb said:


> I have tried both Hammond and Heyboer on several occasions and they're fine transformers but to state they are "far Better" would be at the least inaccurate. MM makes excellent transformers and they're selection is second to none.


Ok, maybe not "Far Better" in terms of construction quality, but tone wise, I prefer Hammond/Heyboer. The MM OTs are too sterile for my tastes.

The Heyboer selection is pretty good, its just not marketed as well as MM. Same goes for Hammond. Both Hammond and Heyboer do custom stuff too. My Marshall JCM2000/JCM900 line of transformers are Heyboer and they sound better than MM and are less expensive too.


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## surlybastard (Feb 20, 2011)

I may be completely off base here, I have no real knowledge or insight into this discussion and it's just my opinion but I think changing Transformers is largely the same thing as putting a bigger engine in your car, it appeals to that Tim Taylor/Home Improvement/macho sensibility of "Bigger is better" and "More power is better", basically something to increase your manliness because you can say your amp has "bigger iron" in it. It's the same compulsion that has people buy cars with 450 horse power engines that they'll never drive faster than 120 km/h, and 100 watt Marshall stacks they'll never turn past 3 (says the guy with the 50 watt Marshall half stack, I'm guilty of this very thing myself).

Tweaker's are great amps, I've played the 15 watt version a few times and think they're excellent bang for the buck. Just know if you invest the money in a new transformer you'll never get it back in resale (it's like putting a pool in your backyard, you're never getting that money back when you sell it), any change in tone will likely be negligible, and as someone who's never had a transformer quit on him the reliability aspect is probably as much luck of the draw as it is how much you spent (although yes, I will concede the after market ones are probably more reliable). So what are you buying? More than likely you're buying that warm fuzzy feeling of knowing you've got an upgraded transformer, which is valid because everyone on this board (myself included) has likely put money out stuff for just that reason.

Like I said, just my opinion. I'm not big on modding amps to begin with (so I have that bias), if the amp isn't giving you what you want it's easier/cheaper to just sell it and buy something that does.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

I've been tempted for a while to replace the stock OT on my JTM45 with a Mercury or RS since the Marshall OTs are notoriously under-spec'd, especially when you're running KT66s (or so I hear). I just haven't experienced any issues so far, so I'm hesitant to dump money into it if I don't need to.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

surlybastard said:


> I may be completely off base here, I have no real knowledge or insight into this discussion and it's just my opinion but I think changing Transformers is largely the same thing as putting a bigger engine in your car, it appeals to that Tim Taylor/Home Improvement/macho sensibility of "Bigger is better" and "More power is better", basically something to increase your manliness because you can say your amp has "bigger iron" in it. It's the same compulsion that has people buy cars with 450 horse power engines that they'll never drive faster than 120 km/h, and 100 watt Marshall stacks they'll never turn past 3 (says the guy with the 50 watt Marshall half stack, I'm guilty of this very thing myself).


Well, you're kinda right. 

Some amps don't benefit from better iron because the iron in the amp is already very good to start with. Replacing high quality, well spec'd transformers is not of much value and better "tone" can be obtained in much more cost effective ways.

For the amps and don't have properly spec'd iron to begin with, the benefit is definitely there both in terms of performance and tone. For example, if the PT (power transformer) is not spec'd to handle the rated power of the amp, it will heat up, it will sag and heat up some more, which will cause more sag. Sag, is when the voltage from the PT drops as current demand goes up. While there's always a bit of sag from the PT but it should be limited so that the amp can perform as intended. What does excessive voltage sag mean for your sound? The result will be a loss of power, more compression in the output section along with mushy bass and a loss of clarity and definition. If you play alone in your home, this may not be an issue but when playing at band volumes, cheap iron will compromise your amp's tone. Of course, there are other components that influence the amp's response like the screen voltage and you can have fun experimenting with different chokes or resistors to make the amp respond differently but a good PT is key, as is a good OT (output transformer). 

One last thing. Bigger iron is not necessarily better. There are many factors that make a good transformer. MM loves to hype their mega stack, mega core or whatever they call it. While a good transformer can benefit from a larger stack, its not the only thing that matters. In fact, the my custom JCM2000 power transformer is a hair smaller that the stock transformer but performs much better. What you don't see also matters.

I guess you have to hear it, feel it to believe it. I was skeptical until I tried it myself.


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

hollowbody said:


> I've been tempted for a while to replace the stock OT on my JTM45 with a Mercury or RS since the Marshall OTs are notoriously under-spec'd, especially when you're running KT66s (or so I hear). I just haven't experienced any issues so far, so I'm hesitant to dump money into it if I don't need to.


You won't be disappointed. A few years ago I had a couple of friends over for an impromptu listening session. I had a Trainwreck Rocket clone that I had built and we subbed 5 different output transformers in and out with clips to compare tone. This took a couple of go-rounds so that we could get familiar with and differentiate each transformer. As I clipped them in, one friend played the same lick while we listened. Neither of the other two knew what brand they were listening to. We had 2 Mercurys, 2 Edcors and 1 Heyboer. One of the Mercurys and one of the Edcors had slightly higher primary impedance. The consensus of my 2 friends was that the Mercurys were better than the others, the worst being the Edcors and of those, the one with the higher impedance being the poorest. The Heyboer was, we thought, better than the Edcors but the difference between the Mercurys and the rest was not subtle. Not scientific I'll grant you but when you can get 3 musicians to agree I guess it's worth something.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

WCGill said:


> You won't be disappointed. A few years ago I had a couple of friends over for an impromptu listening session. I had a Trainwreck Rocket clone that I had built and we subbed 5 different output transformers in and out with clips to compare tone. This took a couple of go-rounds so that we could get familiar with and differentiate each transformer. As I clipped them in, one friend played the same lick while we listened. Neither of the other two knew what brand they were listening to. We had 2 Mercurys, 2 Edcors and 1 Heyboer. One of the Mercurys and one of the Edcors had slightly higher primary impedance. The consensus of my 2 friends was that the Mercurys were better than the others, the worst being the Edcors and of those, the one with the higher impedance being the poorest. The Heyboer was, we thought, better than the Edcors but the difference between the Mercurys and the rest was not subtle. Not scientific I'll grant you but when you can get 3 musicians to agree I guess it's worth something.


Good to hear that it's not necessarily hype. Lots of positive comments from guys I've heard who have switched to MM as well. I figure I'll let the amp run as-is for now and when I can, I'll make the jump. Right now, it's not my main gigging amp, so it's less important to me to have work done to it that I don't need, but if I move back to it as my #1 instead of the '59 Bassman RI that I'm using most now, it'll be a more important decision.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

WCGill said:


> We had 2 Mercurys, 2 Edcors and 1 Heyboer. One of the Mercurys and one of the Edcors had slightly higher primary impedance.


With the higher impedance, you're changing the amp design, which will change the way it behaves. For a real side by side test, you'd need OTs with identical specs.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

I've done the identical specs and I'd have to say MM nails it. Heyboer would come in second. 
An example...I had a customer bring me in a Marshall HW '68 reissue plexi. With the matching cabs, it cost in the multiples of $1000's of dollars. 
Well, wouldn't you know, about 3 months after purchasing it, he turns it on, at a gig no less, and poof goes the power tranny (Dagnal junk). He brought it to me and I explained since I'm not warranty authorised for Marshall, he have to take it in for warranty. 
He found out it was going to take a month of Sundays to get it back, so he returned......REALLY pissed off.
I suggested if he was willing, I'd get him a replacement from MM.
Not only did he get me to replace the power tranny, but the output and choke as well.
Fast forward a couple of weeks, he's got his amp back and I get a call. His comment was and I quote " The improvement in the way the amp sounds is jaw dropping!" 
I wound up renting that amp for Black Mountain at Bluesfest a few years ago and the guy had it full blast. It was so loud the front of house guy had the amp off in the PA.
I would not have been comfortable with him doing that with the stock trannies in it.

One other small but important detail regarding MM. Their transformers are guarantied for life. Even if you sell the amp. Pretty good company IMO.



LydianGuitars said:


> With the higher impedance, you're changing the amp design, which will change the way it behaves. For a real side by side test, you'd need OTs with identical specs.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

nonreverb said:


> I've done the identical specs and I'd have to say MM nails it. Heyboer would come in second. .


Well, tone is a subjective thing. If we're talking OTs, I've done a side by side and prefered the Heyboer in the Marshall DSL. Not as sterile as the MM. YMMV.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

I don't consider a DSL a particularly great test bed for comparing output transformers so yes, it's a subjective exercise...



LydianGuitars said:


> Well, tone is a subjective tone. If we're talking OTs, I've done a side by side and prefered the Heyboer in the Marshall DSL. Not as sterile as the MM. YMMV.


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

LydianGuitars said:


> With the higher impedance, you're changing the amp design, which will change the way it behaves. For a real side by side test, you'd need OTs with identical specs.


Yes of course. 3 of the 5 had identical primary impedances. The MM with the highest primary impedance sounded the best to my ears, an interesting mix of swirl and grind, absolutely killer. The Rocket/AC30 is an ideal test amp because of the lack of feedback and lack of preamp distortion, unlike most Marshalls. With this amp, you are hearing more of the output than anything else.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

First off, while not "scientific", I think many of the comments in this thread are based on valid criteria and comparisons, probably more than what a lot of pedals or pickup comparisons are based on, sometimes.

Second, we seem to be treating both speakers and tubes as if they are all alike and operate best under identical conditions, when one also hears that _this_ brand of power tube X (6L6, EL34, EL84, 6V6, etc.) "likes" 5, 10, or even 20 more volts on the plates than _that_ brand. Yet I haven't heard word one about what the secondary leads provide in AC, prior to regulation, or whether certain speakers sound better with certain OTs.

I'm not saying the comments or comparisons are invalid. Rather, it may well be the case that player A strikes tonal gold with transformer X while player B hits the same motherload with transformer Y because they have a preference for a different brand of power tubes or speakers, that the transformer in question just happens to complement.

All of that said, tone and dependability are two different things, and no touring musician should feel somehow shortchanged if they have an amp that doesn'T sound _quite_ as good as the best they've heard, but_ never lets them down_.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

nonreverb said:


> I don't consider a DSL a particularly great test bed for comparing output transformers


Of course.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

LydianGuitars said:


> Of course.


There's a whole lot of signal modification going on before the signal even makes it to the PI on those amps. I don't doubt there may be some difference however, to really hear the difference and compare, donor Marshalls to use would be a JMP or JCM800 or JTM45 reissue. There's where the magic would clearly be noticed.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

nonreverb said:


> There's a whole lot of signal modification going on before the signal even makes it to the PI on those amps.


Not that it matters, but they're actually pretty simple.


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

I am a user of Heyboer, Trinity branded (Weber maybe?), Allen, and Classictone transformers. Oh, and whatever company Fender used in '64 and '68 in their amps. All are very good and sound excellent. Never melted one yet. I can't say how one might compare to another as when I build an amp, I chose a brand and go with it. I have yet to try a MM transformer. I just have a problem with the price premium they demand. Their reputation is very good based on what I have read on the net. However, I also hear all about the hype, and how its a marketing plan. I can't comment as I have never tried one. I guess my point here is all the ones I used were dependable, sound great and generate positive comments from listeners.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Ultimately, that's the bottom line. I do use MM a lot due to the improvement in tone, the excellent warranty and preferred pricing I now get. As stated before, I've used Heyboer trannies too and have nothing bad to say about them. 
Whenever possible, I use vintage ones I have lying around as well. Schumacher (Fender, etc) are great transformers as well as Hammond(Canada) and Hammond Organ Co. transformers (not to be confused with Hammond Canada). They made some of the best transformers from that era.




keithb7 said:


> I am a user of Heyboer, Trinity branded (Weber maybe?), Allen, and Classictone transformers. Oh, and whatever company Fender used in '64 and '68 in their amps. All are very good and sound excellent. Never melted one yet. I can't say how one might compare to another as when I build an amp, I chose a brand and go with it. I have yet to try a MM transformer. I just have a problem with the price premium they demand. Their reputation is very good based on what I have read on the net. However, I also hear all about the hype, and how its a marketing plan. I can't comment as I have never tried one. I guess my point here is all the ones I used were dependable, sound great and generate positive comments from listeners.


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