# Beware of 1972 Les Paul Custom $880



## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

This so called bargain appears again on Kijiji Ottawa Toronto and Montreal sites

1972 Gibson Les Paul Custom Vintage Guitar - City of Toronto Musical Instruments For Sale - Kijiji City of Toronto Canada.


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## bobb (Jan 4, 2007)

Also on the Vancouver Kijiji

Gotta love the headstock


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Wow!! Those are some of those really awesome Chinese counterfeit Gibsons, huh? I saw one with exactly the same serial number in St. Louis!


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## The Grin (May 5, 2009)

I love knowing a thing or 2 about spotting a fake Gibson.


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## Stonesy (Oct 7, 2008)

Item is gone, but those headstock pics are not fake.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Stonesy said:


> Item is gone, but those headstock pics are not fake.


Yeha...the scam artist selling those shitty counterfeit always use REAL picts to make sure they get the most hit. it's getting easier and easier to find info on the web about the fakes. Even the new serial numbers are registering properly in Gibson's database.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Yeah, that headstock looks legit to me too.

That ad's been popping up every so often on all the major kijiji sites. It's not so much someone trying to sell something, rather people phishing for email addresses.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

I'm not so sure about that headstock. The 'Gibson' is missing the dot for the letter "i" and the whole way the word Gibson is made isn't as sharp as I think it should be for an LP. The Counterfeit 'example' shown to me by the guys at "Go Music" in St. Louis (a couple of doors down from Blueberry Hill, where Chuck Berry still plays to sold out audiences about once a month. His gorgeous 'blond' ES-335 is on display there.) was pretty believable from a few feet away. The counterfeiters are now making them with correct 'two-screw' truss-rod covers and believable hardware and external markings. The 'shiny' bits are usually the first give away as they are cheaply-plated. I didn't get to plug and play the fake, but it felt about right in terms of weight and neck design. I was told that it actually sounds 'pretty good', but not great. They are getting better at it all the time. Apparently, there are many with exactly the same serial number.


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## The Grin (May 5, 2009)

Anyone else see the episode of Pawnstars where the guy brought in his 1960s LP guitar and found it was actually a 70s? Tried looking for a video of his heartbreak but couldn't find it.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

al3d said:


> Yeha...the scam artist selling those shitty counterfeit always use REAL picts to make sure they get the most hit. it's getting easier and easier to find info on the web about the fakes. Even the new serial numbers are registering properly in Gibson's database.


Unfortunately it is very simple for these people to obtain photo's of just about any authentic item and use them to entice people. Images are abundant on the web.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

The Grin said:


> Anyone else see the episode of Pawnstars where the guy brought in his 1960s LP guitar and found it was actually a 70s? Tried looking for a video of his heartbreak but couldn't find it.


Yeah, that was a sad scene. However, he should have known more about the guitar before he brought it in.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

those 'scenes' in Pawnstars are scripted. The guy and the guitar are from a Vegas guitar store.

but I thought it was a really good scene, reflects those people that think they've discovered a really expensive Gibson. Especially misreading the Norlin serial numbers.


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## six-string (Oct 7, 2009)

anyone who really thinks they are going to buy a 1972 Gibson Les Paul Custom for $880 has some pretty unrealistic expectations. any reasonable person looking for such an item, would have a good idea of what average market value is for something like that, or at least could find out pretty quick using the internet, and logic would dictate they have suspicions about one offered at such a ridiculously low price. 
the old adage- if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

I'd seen that ad this morning..it only stays up a short time...I was wondering if it was "reported" and taken down...or if it was a phishing scam...or somehow contained a virus...I was soooooo tempted to respond to the ad though...

I'd like to hear what _really_ happens when someone contacts the "seller"...


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## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

That is a legit Gibson headstock. There was a period where the dot in the "i" was sometimes there and sometimes not. It looks weird because the lacquer has failed over the inlay. The diamond inlay on the fakes is smaller as well.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

J S Moore said:


> That is a legit Gibson headstock. There was a period where the dot in the "i" was sometimes there and sometimes not. It looks weird because the lacquer has failed over the inlay. The diamond inlay on the fakes is smaller as well.


Thanks for the clarification.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

The Grin said:


> Anyone else see the episode of Pawnstars where the guy brought in his 1960s LP guitar and found it was actually a 70s? Tried looking for a video of his heartbreak but couldn't find it.


Ya, that episode is a legend around our house, as when we were watching it, before they brought the appraiser in, I turned to my wife and said casually, "he's nuts, thats an early 70's pancake norlin, and prob worth only $2-3k" ...her eyes bugged out later when the appraiser said the exact same thing  Nice to occasionally be right with your wife in a way that doesnt prove her to be wrong 
I dunno the owner of it seemed to have owned it for a looooong time, prob well before the collectors drove up the price. So I wonder if he was just trying to pull a fast one. Being a professional musician (I think he said he played with Foreigner or Toto or Kansas or someone else from that period), he should have known the tell tale signs of a norlin, its not like its that hard to identify.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

J S Moore said:


> That is a legit Gibson headstock. There was a period where the dot in the "i" was sometimes there and sometimes not. It looks weird because the lacquer has failed over the inlay. The diamond inlay on the fakes is smaller as well.


Looks a lot like the headstock of my Les Paul. The machine heads aren't original on mine either.









A lot of times pictures of the real thing are sued for the ads, but a fake is sold.
Recently an old fuzzy picture of my clasical was used on the Vancouver Craigslist, and it was greatly overpriced. Hopefully nobody bought it for that much, if the guy even had a guitar.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

A week ago I saw a 'Gibson Les Paul' for sale which had the following issues telling me that it was a counterfeit:


- *The biggest giveaway on most 'fake' Gibsons*...all Gibsons with neck binding have 'fret nibs' which are binding covering the ends of the frets that are left there after the binding is scraped from the fingerboard. Unless the guitar is a refretted one and the luthier and owner had decided to do away with the nibs during the refret.








-the serial number was cukoo 
-Gibsons have a very 'geometric' volume/tone pot layout which is a lot more precise than that particular guitar.
-the typically 'sharp' point in the top of the 'open book' headstock is often a point of great detail to Gibson and that guitar has a fairly obvious blemish in that location.
-without a ruler to check I believe that either A) the pickup rout for the bridge pickup is 'off' B) the bridge location is off C) the string spacing is incorrect and/or the bridge and neck pickup pole pieces are the same rather than the typical Gibson wider at the bridge and narrower at the neck.
-hardware was not typical of Gibson (screw retainer on bridge screws and noticeably cheap plated metal)
-control cavity covers were not 'punched out' to size but 'shaped' manually to fit the cavities.
-it didn't have the weight that it should have had & didn't even weigh as much as any of my Studio models and the Custom is the only model that they refuse to chamber so it is typically extremely heavy


Other possible issues:
-the output jack (not Gibson production)
-the headstock angle (I didn't check because the other issues were obvious enough to me)
-the nut was either replaced which would be odd for a guitar 'not used much'
-cases can come and go but one would think that the original case would be kept with that guitar and it is a plain non-Gibson case
-scratching up around the truss rod cover was significant and of an undetermined cause
-the binding itself is thinner than any Custom I've seen
-the knobs were not the type ever used on a Gibson


There were other specific issues as well...but yes, some of the counterfeit makers are getting really good. The one I looked at had been around a while I believe.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

smorgdonkey said:


> - all Gibsons with neck binding have 'fret nibs'
> - the serial number was cukoo
> - Gibsons have a very 'geometric' volume/tone pot layout which is a lot more precise than that particular guitar
> - the typically 'sharp' point in the top of the 'open book' headstock is often a point of great detail to Gibson and that guitar has a fairly obvious blemish in that location
> ...


Wow! Great input there Tatanka's doughnut eating nemesis! That's valueable info which I am going to keep. I am sure we will be seeing more and more of these and they will be getting better and better at 'faking' because there's a lot of money to be made by selling counterfeits. Usually it's the 'first purchaser' who gets fooled most easily. Although some unscrupulous owners' have been busted for selling these, they're usually trying to get some of their lost money back by selling to the 'next sucker'. I just wish there was better protection against the importation of 'counterfeit products'.


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## djem (Sep 14, 2006)

To support others confirming the headstock shot is legit, yup, appears to be so. The Norlin headstocks were wider. Gives them a neat look that I like.

One thing I didn't see, since the link is now dead, is pics of the pickups. '72 LPC's would have come with 'Gibson' embossed pup covers. Another cool thing for that year. I believe they carried them into '73 until stock ran out. From what I heard/read, Gibson realized they had a nightmare on their hands as the pup covers were neck and bridge position specific.

Here's some pics of my legit '72 LPC.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

djem said:


> Here's some pics of my legit '72 LPC.



Ok, ok...I'll give you $76, groceries for a week.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Alex Csank said:


> Wow! Great input there Tatanka's doughnut eating nemesis! That's valueable info which I am going to keep. I am sure we will be seeing more and more of these and they will be getting better and better at 'faking' because there's a lot of money to be made by selling counterfeits. Usually it's the 'first purchaser' who gets fooled most easily. Although some unscrupulous owners' have been busted for selling these, they're usually trying to get some of their lost money back by selling to the 'next sucker'. I just wish there was better protection against the importation of 'counterfeit products'.


Thanks but really, when looking at an expensive (and especially a 'vintage') piece, one should do as much research as one can do. I did a lot of searching and found one of the better sources on MyLesPaul Forum. It was definitely a confidence building exercise when applying some of the counterfeit identification hallmarks to a real guitar.


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## djem (Sep 14, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> Ok, ok...I'll give you $76, groceries for a week.


Sorry, but the rhythm pot knob is not for sale.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

djem said:


> Sorry, but the rhythm pot knob is not for sale.


Ok...but hypothetically speaking...if it were for sale, would it be the volume or tone pot knob that we are discussing?


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

djem said:


>


I can see yellowing on the body, but very little on the headstock--is that just the angle in the photo?
I like the way mine's yellowed, but there's a huge difference in the amount of yellowing in your picture and mine.


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

The Grin said:


> Anyone else see the episode of Pawnstars where the guy brought in his 1960s LP guitar and found it was actually a 70s? Tried looking for a video of his heartbreak but couldn't find it.


Season 2 Episode 5.


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## djem (Sep 14, 2006)

zontar said:


> I can see yellowing on the body, but very little on the headstock--is that just the angle in the photo?
> I like the way mine's yellowed, but there's a huge difference in the amount of yellowing in your picture and mine.


Just the angle, lighting of the shot and different cameras (I took a pic of the body and the headstock picture was from the previous owner). The binding yellowing is consistant throughout when viewing in person.


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## Old_Fart (Jul 23, 2009)

Here's some bad news, boys ...

I've lived in China for several years. One of my "old fart" buddies works with Gibson China (Epiphone, actually).

Anyways, I own a few genuine Les Pauls and have brought them with me to China (yup, they're genuine because I bought them back home in Canada, years ago, through a Gibson dealer ... before China was into doing fakes).

About a year ago, over a few beer, my buddy showed me a collection of fakes they've recently picked up here (China). Side by side with my genuine LPs, no way you could tell the difference - nothing, nada, zip, zilch. I ended up paying for the beer because I didn't believe him when he said there are perfect copies out there now.

My buddy has been with Gibson for almost 30 years, and we've both been playing Gibson products for almost 50 years (yup, we're old farts).

There are several factories in China punching out guitars with advanced computer-controlled milling machines that match any make/model of guitar you can imagine. Rumour has it (although nobody really knows) that the make/model with the highest degree of fakes (relative to production numbers) is the Gretsch White Penguin. Although the LP has the nominal highest production of fakes, it is also a high volume production from Gibson so the ratio of fakes to genuine is less than found with the Gretsch (the Penguin is easier to produce than the Falcon).

Price for these new generation perfect fakes? About $100 around Beijing. Biggest consumer? Westerners on vacation. So, you know where they are ending up.

Solution? Who knows ... just get a guitar that you absolutely love to play. If you MUST have a genuine Gibson, buy a new one from a Gibson dealer. If you want to save a bit of coin and buy a used genuine Gibson, make sure the seller is someone you know, or someone whose purchase story can be verified.


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## Stonesy (Oct 7, 2008)

Nice story.


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## Old_Fart (Jul 23, 2009)

After my initial post, I thought about what I'd do if I was looking for a used LP back home in Canada.

Frankly, unless I was absolutely sure about the guitar's history, I'd ask to see the seller's passport - any China visas in it? I'm serious. I play in a band here at a popular expat bar, and am involved with the expat musician scene, and the number of tourists that ask "where can I find a great LP/Strat/PRS/Gretsch copy?" is shocking.

The other thing I'd do is frequent enthusiasts sites like these, and probably trust a seller through here 100 times more than anyone on eBay. or craigslist.

I see that there is a Canadian maple LP for sale right now - THAT would definitely be genuine - the Chinese don't have any maple syrup production!

By the way, I'm looking for serial numbers 8 or 88 of the Maple burst if anyone knows where it is??? I'd really like to own either (or both).


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## six-string (Oct 7, 2009)

well thank you for acknowledging one very important tip for absolutely anyone looking for quality gear.
that is-DO YOUR HOMEWORK ! check out the many websites including this one and many others that are easy to find on the web, where folks discuss, debate, rant and rave about guitars and other music subjects. my experience and that of many friends, is that you will learn lots of valuable information and probably find the instrument of your dreams and then some. and although i will caveat this next remark to say it is only my personal experience, i have bought a number of guitars from folks i've met and dealt with on internet music forums and so far, all of my experiences have been completely positive.
but that doesn't mean you should ever take anything for granted. do your own research and learn what you need to know.


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## Stonesy (Oct 7, 2008)

This Old Fart has got to be the biggest Chicom ever.
Your whole story has more holes than a chunk of Swiss cheese.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Stonesy said:


> This Old Fart has got to be the biggest Chicom ever.
> Your whole story has more holes than a chunk of Swiss cheese.


Stonesy, if you take a "pot shot" like that, you should back up what you say. So, why have you gone to "FLAME-ON" mode?


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Old_Fart said:


> Price for these new generation perfect fakes? About $100 around Beijing. Biggest consumer? Westerners on vacation. So, you know where they are ending up.


If they were selling THAT cheap and were THAT good then I would have seen one by now...

I'm with Stonesy...I call BS.


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## six-string (Oct 7, 2009)

Stonesy said:


> This Old Fart has got to be the biggest Chicom ever.
> Your whole story has more holes than a chunk of Swiss cheese.


you mean like Gibson guitars do? LOL!


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

I've used the weight-relieved Gibsons and find them to be quite fine...as well as the chambered...fine indeed.


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## Old_Fart (Jul 23, 2009)

smorgdonkey said:


> If they were selling THAT cheap and were THAT good then I would have seen one by now...
> 
> I'm with Stonesy...I call BS.


Well, this thread is an oldie but a goodie. I've been away for a while.

I think the chances are probably pretty good that you have come across some fakes but not realized it. Seriously, some are that good. There are definitely crappy copies out there, but there are also really good ones. In fact, I've acquired one that is BETTER than my genuine LP ... but it was obviously a fake because the price was 1800 rmb (about $250). I bought it because it plays better, sounds better, and I don't really care if it gets banged up - very easy & cheap to replace with a shiny new one.

If you'd like more info on fakes, etc, check out Ed Roman's website. If that guy can't tell the difference, we mere mortals don't have much of a chance. And, seriously, you can get perfect copies of virtually everything in China - tuners, pups, bridges, knobs, buttons, capos ... and if you can't find precisely what you're looking for, someone will build it for you.

Here are a couple average copies around $100 ... on the Chinese equivalent of eBay.

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=10828637980

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=10546650611

Welcome to the reality of China.


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

I think we all know what a real vintage LP is worth so it should be a tip-off when you see one for sale at a fraction of the price. 
You get what you pay for.
Buyer beware.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

when they start to copy copy roxbury, dillion, and indie i'll worry. oh wait- no i won't, those guitars aren't ridiculously over priced, so resale value doesn't matter. that's a win. roll the next clip, steven


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

The Grin said:


> Anyone else see the episode of Pawnstars where the guy brought in his 1960s LP guitar and found it was actually a 70s? Tried looking for a video of his heartbreak but couldn't find it.


Ya, I saw that episode. The guy was expecting a ton of dough for the guitar and ended up with a fraction of what he wanted.


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## deadear (Nov 24, 2011)

Glad I am not a Gibson lover. Any fake would probably play better than the faded ( $700 ) series they have been pumping out. I seen a faded flying V in the store and the low E string would not stay on the nut.


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## Old_Fart (Jul 23, 2009)

Yeah, Gibson seems to be the #1 target for fake copies. But there are also fake Fenders & Gretsch, as well as several other well-known brands. Anything that commands a large premium in the marketplace.

I like Rickenbackers (own a couple), so a couple of years ago (in China), I was curious to see if they had been targeted by the clone-factories. I found a couple, but they were extremely poor quality, and obviously fake - kinda looked like the result of what would happen if I'd tried to make it myself. This last summer, however, I saw a near perfect copy of a 360 Ric (about $150), so these are now out there, also.

One nasty trick that I stumbled across was at a shop in Beijing. It had an inventory of three brand new Marshall 1960A cabinets sitting on the showroom floor. Over behind the counter was a stack of brand new 12 inch speakers, without the manufacturer boxes. The guy I was with (my buddy translator and also a keen musician) mentioned that the shop had probably taken the original speakers out of the Marshall cabs, replaced them with cheap clones, and was now selling the genuine factory speakers separately. He shrugged it off by saying "well, most of the cab buyers won't know the difference."

So that got me thinking about what other parts might be swapped out of a genuine instrument with fake clones.

This whole situation is reminiscent of the pharmaceutical industry - extremely expensive drugs in the USA being protected by patents, so mail order out of Canada for generic drugs became popular. But then fake, cloned drugs started appearing from other countries. A huge difference is, of course, fake pickups on a Les Paul might hurt your ears but they won't kill ya!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

sulphur said:


> Ya, I saw that episode. The guy was expecting a ton of dough for the guitar and ended up with a fraction of what he wanted.


He decided to keep it. It turned out to be a 1970 ~ 1974 worth about $3000.

Here's the clip

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1WeK63JNH8&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Milkman said:


> He decided to keep it. It turned out to be a 1970 ~ 1974 worth about $3000.
> 
> Here's the clip
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1WeK63JNH8&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Can you imagine that happening? Major bummer. But you would think that if he had owned that guitar for all those years he would have at some point confirmed its dates


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Can you imagine that happening? Major bummer. But you would think that if he had owned that guitar for all those years he would have at some point confirmed its dates


Yeah I wouldn't want that sudden shock. The neck volute should have been a dead giveaway, as should the two piece body.It really seemed like the guy believed it was a 1960.

Imagine if it had been a private sale and the buyer didn't verify the year.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

You could really see the disappointment on the guys face, I felt for the guy.

Like you guys said though, should have done his homework and avoided the letdown.

I'd hope that in the private market, you'd know what you're looking for.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

sulphur said:


> You could really see the disappointment on the guys face, I felt for the guy.
> 
> Like you guys said though, should have done his homework and avoided the letdown.
> 
> I'd hope that in the private market, you'd know what you're looking for.


Also, did he say he played with Triumph?


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Ya! You'd think that Rik would have let him know. 8)

He said that He toured with Toto too.


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## KujaSE (Jul 30, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> when they start to copy copy roxbury, dillion, and indie i'll worry. oh wait- no i won't, those guitars aren't ridiculously over priced, so resale value doesn't matter. that's a win. roll the next clip, steven


Well, you're looping Indie in with a couple of brands with rely 100% on knockoff guitars. I've got a semi-hollow with p90's (an Indie original) that I play live weekly and it feels and sounds great.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Milkman said:


> He decided to keep it. It turned out to be a 1970 ~ 1974 worth about $3000.
> 
> Here's the clip
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1WeK63JNH8&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Yeah, too bad that show is fake and the guy is an actor lol.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

TDeneka said:


> Yeah, too bad that show is fake and the guy is an actor lol.


Not sure about any of that, but I know I was in there several times before the show was ever created. Its right across from the Stratosphere in Vegas and we stayed there a few times. I always hit the pawn shops wherever I go to see whats on the walls. I remember it not having much in terms of stock and almost no guitar gear.


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## Hammertone (Feb 3, 2006)

A reasonably amusing bit. I guess after the various versions of Antiques Road Show, Pawn Stars and Pickers, the next version of this will be "Garage Sale - the Series".


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## Davestp1 (Apr 25, 2006)

That episode was discussed at length on the mylespaul forum a while back. 

It was claimed that the guy with the LP Custom was actually an employee of the store the appraiser came from.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Hammertone said:


> A reasonably amusing bit. I guess after the various versions of Antiques Road Show, Pawn Stars and Pickers, the next version of this will be "Garage Sale - the Series".


Could be fun.

I don't care if the shows are completely fake, completely real or anywhere in between, I just like seeing some cool stuff.

Although a Garage Sale show could be scraping the bottom of the barrel, which sounds like your point...


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