# Pain in thumb is a PITA



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I am interested to know if any other forum members have ever developed nerve pain in the webspace/palmar side of base of the thumb of the fretting hand. The nature of the pain is similar to the pain experienced when you bump the "funny bone" (ulnar nerve) in your elbow and occurs when certain chords/hand positions are involved. I can manually palpate the base of the thumb on the palmar aspect and elicit the same pain. There also appears to be some mild alteration of the sensation in the skin over the "end" of the thumb. The thumb would occasionally ache for a while after playing. 

I have been reading up on the anatomy and "pathology" of this condition as I have always enjoyed orthopaedics (I am a retired physiotherapist). I suspect this is possibly an entrapment of the proper palmar digital nerve....if there are other interested clinicians "in the crowd". 

I have recently developed this as a result (IMO) of playing my two acoustic guitars which have much fatter necks than I usually play. I am sure it is likely also complicated/aggravated and by my poor technique...but I have always had that. Playing guitars with thinner neck carves is quite comfortable for the most part.

Ironically, my friend (and also a GC member) had what I think was a very similar clinical presentation and opted to have it treated surgically.

Thanks for your comments.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Stop playing that guitar! If you can't find a way to put your hands that doesn't hurt them find another guitar that's better for you. I had this problem and solved it with warming up exercises... specifically these:



but if the guitar is too big for your hands the best you can do is find a smaller one. If you keep playing and ignore the pain I'll become chronic and the only solution will be surgery, but if even after surgery you keep doing the same not even that will save you. I'm not a doctor but have talked to a few about it.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Thanks amagras. Much appreciated!!

I did stop playing those acoustics and switched to my acoustic with a much slimmer neck and it did not seem to aggravate it. My electric guitars have slim necks. I expect that part of the problem (back to technique here) is that I "hook" my thumb over the neck..... along with gripping the neck with so much power that I get fret sprout...LOL.

You write that you had this (or a similar) problem, did all the symptoms eventually go away? 

I am not really too concerned...I still have guitars with slim necks that I can enjoy playing.

Thanks again.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

If you can hook your thumb on an acoustic, you must have massive hands! Or a sore thumb


----------



## keto (May 23, 2006)

I have soreness base of thumb both hands, but it's from lifting weights. I discovered last night that when at its worst, it hurts to play guitar/bass. Jam day tomorrow, we'll see how bad it is over a several hour session.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

keto said:


> I have soreness base of thumb both hands, but it's from lifting weights. I discovered last night that when at its worst, it hurts to play guitar/bass. Jam day tomorrow, we'll see how bad it is over a several hour session.


The friend I mentioned in my original post felt that hours of riding his touring bicycle might have caused /contributed due to the forces going through the base of his thumb(s).


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Budda said:


> If you can hook your thumb on an acoustic, you must have massive hands! Or a sore thumb


Maybe "hook' was a bad choice of a descriptive word. I tried to "unhook" it and play with better technique...but that is an "old dog... new trick" problem.


----------



## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Budda said:


> If you can hook your thumb on an acoustic, you must have massive hands! Or a sore thumb


Judging by his baritone voice probably yes


----------



## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Time to move the guitars that are causing you pain and replace them with something that does not. I know that sounds a lot easier than it will likely be, but sometimes the simple direct approach is the one you should take. No point aggravating your hands more than is necessary.


----------



## GWN! (Nov 2, 2014)

I have developped the exact same issue. It started after I aquired a Norman B50 acoustic. After playing it for a while I started noticing the pain. I have arthritis so I assumed that I just needed to get used to a Godin neck. At a family event one evening I played quite a bit. The next day I could barely use my left hand. I was incapable of using any force with my left hand. Could not pinch anything between thumb and finger without massive pain. It took about two weeks to settle down. Now a dull pain is almost constant. I tried playing the Norman again but I can't. The Tele is more bearable but the pain is still there. My doctor seems to think that the problem resulted from my fall when I had the TIA. I did not blackout completely and put my arms out in front of me as a natural reaction to a fall. The Norman guitar just seems to have made it worst.

I can also induce the pain by touching the palmar aspect. The Norman will have to go but I am unsure if I will find a totally painless guitar from now on.

Funny that you mention your friend who was a cyclist. I have been an avid cyclist for many years and I am more than concerned about that aspect of it was well. When I am using my bike on the trainer I have to constantly shift my left hand to avoid the pain. 

The whole issue has got me down. In the summer time I am out on the road bike daily and I would find it difficult if I would have to stop riding and even harder if I would have to stop playing guitar.


----------



## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

GWN! said:


> I have developped the exact same issue. It started after I aquired a Norman B50 acoustic. After playing it for a while I started noticing the pain. I have arthritis so I assumed that I just needed to get used to a Godin neck. At a family event one evening I played quite a bit. The next day I could barely use my left hand. I was incapable of using any force with my left hand. Could not pinch anything between thumb and finger without massive pain. It took about two weeks to settle down. Now a dull pain is almost constant. I tried playing the Norman again but I can't. The Tele is more bearable but the pain is still there. My doctor seems to think that the problem resulted from my fall when I had the TIA. I did not blackout completely and put my arms out in front of me as a natural reaction to a fall. The Norman guitar just seems to have made it worst.
> 
> I can also induce the pain by touching the palmar aspect. The Norman will have to go but I am unsure if I will find a totally painless guitar from now on.
> 
> ...


That's terrible but does highlight my point to Dave. Don't do anything to aggravate the condition because it could spread to other guitars and become chronic. Just make the tough choice now while you can.

GWN - really hope this clears up for you. I cut my left index finger quite badly last fall and it is just starting to get to the point where I can play without pain and stiffness. I wasn't sure it would ever come back frankly.


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

I was going to post a helpful comment until I read that you were a retired *physiotherapist*. I 'm pretty sure I couldn't post anything that you haven't already heard about. *Retired* people think they know everything.


----------



## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Guitar101 said:


> I was going to post a helpful comment until I read that you were a retired *physiotherapist*. I 'm pretty sure I couldn't post anything that you haven't already heard about. *Retired* people think they know everything.


LOL, if I'd known that about a week ago I'd have been asking him all kinds of questions at our meet and greet


----------



## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

davetcan said:


> LOL, if I'd known that about a week ago I'd have been asking him all kinds of questions at our meet and greet


I already did!


----------



## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Mine goes numb from my grip from welding


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Guitar101 said:


> I was going to post a helpful comment until I read that you were a retired *physiotherapist*. I 'm pretty sure I couldn't post anything that you haven't already heard about. *Retired* people think they know everything.


I am just using very basic assessment concepts to diagnose my own thumb. I could easily be wrong. However, I don't want to go through a lot of appointments and various diagnostic investigations unless it becomes more painful and/or results in some form of functional impairment. 

My real interest in this thread is to see how common this type of "condition" is among guitarists and if they were able to pinpoint a cause. In addition, I'm interested in how they treated/approached it.

To be honest, the longer I'm retired...the less I trust my knowledge in general. LOL.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

GWN! said:


> I have developed the exact same issue. It started after I aquired a Norman B50 acoustic. After playing it for a while I started noticing the pain. I have arthritis so I assumed that I just needed to get used to a Godin neck. At a family event one evening I played quite a bit. The next day I could barely use my left hand. I was incapable of using any force with my left hand. Could not pinch anything between thumb and finger without massive pain. It took about two weeks to settle down. Now a dull pain is almost constant. I tried playing the Norman again but I can't. The Tele is more bearable but the pain is still there. My doctor seems to think that the problem resulted from my fall when I had the TIA. I did not blackout completely and put my arms out in front of me as a natural reaction to a fall. The Norman guitar just seems to have made it worst.
> 
> I can also induce the pain by touching the palmar aspect. The Norman will have to go but I am unsure if I will find a totally painless guitar from now on.
> 
> ...


I am sorry to read this and hope that the pain reduces to a point that it is not interfering with your guitar playing or cycling. 

If you would like to compare our respective "thumb situations" in more detail, please PM me.


----------



## grumpyoldman (Jan 31, 2010)

greco said:


> ....I have recently developed this as a result (IMO) of playing my two acoustic guitars which have much fatter necks than I usually play. ...
> Dave


That seems odd to me, Dave, as I get the _exact_ opposite. If I play a guitar with a neck that is too slim (compared to any thicker neck I play more regularly), I get the same sort of problem. And this necessitates strategic selection of guitars for certain songs where the chord changes limit hand movement...

John
thegrumpyoldman


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

davetcan said:


> Time to move the guitars that are causing you pain and replace them with something that does not. I know that sounds a lot easier than it will likely be, but sometimes the simple direct approach is the one you should take. No point aggravating your hands more than is necessary.


If I play the fat-necked acoustic (Yamaha FG-180) it will be for very short durations and I'm at the point now where I don't even want to risk that. It is a shame because it is a nice guitar. Oh well...I have at least had the chance to enjoy it.

IIRC, I remember you mentioning in a thread that you had cut your finger. Good to hear that it is now less painful and gaining mobility and function. The hand is an extremely amazing and complex "mechanism" and much more "delicate" than most of us tend to have any real awareness of until we injure it.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

grumpyoldman said:


> That seems odd to me, Dave, as I get the _exact_ opposite. If I play a guitar with a neck that is too slim (compared to any thicker neck I play more regularly), I get the same sort of problem. And this necessitates strategic selection of guitars for certain songs where the chord changes limit hand movement...
> 
> John
> thegrumpyoldman


Not wanting to diminish your personal pain, concerns and frustrations with this, but it would certainly make a very interesting clinical study. I am now wondering how common these types of hand complaints are among guitar players (i.e., beyond the typical complaints of "cramping) and what are the contributing factors. 

Maybe we can discuss this further at Riff's jam if we are both able to attend...and if either of us remembers this topic for discussion...LOL.


----------



## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

greco said:


> Maybe we can discuss this further at Riff's jam if we are both able to attend...and if either of us remembers this topic for discussion...LOL.


Brought this to mind: 




Edit: if anyone knows the embedded code to make a Youtube video start a particular time, please PM me; in the meantime, start at 3:15.

(I might have something similar going on, but my impression has been it was being triggered by bad computer keyboard posture).


----------



## Guest (Mar 12, 2016)

LexxM3 said:


> Edit: if anyone knows the embedded code to make a Youtube video start a particular time, please PM me; in the meantime, start at 3:15.


Right-click at the desired time.
There's the option 'copy video URL at current time'.


----------



## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

For remedies: try an Osteopath and a RMT. I have the tingling in my fretting hand pinky and ring finger caused by the ulnar nerve. It started about 7 years ago and overnight, I could not close my hand. I went to see quite a wide variety of specialists including a neurologist and a friend recommended an Osteopath (he had had the same issue) - that with massage therapy was by far the best solution. I rarely feel it now and it does not impede on my playing whatsoever.

The RMT was quite interesting in her approach as she believed it was also caused by a nerve in my left side pectoral. She crunched the sh*t out of the pect. and although it made me sick that same day, it was a huge improvement.

Hope this helps and all the best


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I filled in on bass one night, and was left with a nagging tendinitis (for a few months) in my left forearm. Every time I played guitar for an hour or more, my hand would cramp up - one night it closed on itself and I had to open it with my right hand. 

I talked to a GP buddy who told me each time I played and felt pain or cramping, I was re-injuring it. Repetitive re-injury meant it was never getting better, only maintaining or getting worse. He recommended fairly high doses (600 - 800 mg) of ibuprofen before I played. It is a muscle relaxant that will heal the problem over time - as long as I took it early enough before playing that I didn't experience the pain or cramping. I followed his prescription and was right as rain in a couple months. I was able to stop the ibu and proceed as before - while being a little more cautious about how much bassplaying I would do on any one night.

I know some people are very reticent to take pain killers. It's a guy thing, I think. Ibuprofen is more than a pain killer, it will help you heal.


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

greco said:


> I am just using very basic assessment concepts to diagnose my own thumb. I could easily be wrong. However, I don't want to go through a lot of appointments and various diagnostic investigations unless it becomes more painful and/or results in some form of functional impairment.
> 
> My real interest in this thread is to see how common this type of "condition" is among guitarists and if they were able to pinpoint a cause. In addition, I'm interested in how they treated/approached it.
> 
> To be honest, the longer I'm retired...the less I trust my knowledge in general. LOL.


I hear ya, retired 12 years now. I did go through a problem with my thumb about a year ago and ended up taking physio but it was a different condition than your experiencing. Mine was an inflamed tendon which was diagnosed using the Finkelstein test which I'm sure your familiar with. The exercises they gave me worked well and I only needed 3 sessions. My doctor told me it was arthritis and had me believing I was going to have to live with the pain. I hope you can figure out what your dealing with.


----------



## colchar (May 22, 2010)

I have arthritis in my hands (well all over really) and am now making the switch to thicker necked guitars. I did not ice a pain in the thumb when trying one with a ridiculously thick neck at L&M so I will have to be conscious of that. I was thinking that, when making the switch, I should improve my technique and bring my thumb down a bit on the back of the neck. Would repositioning yours maybe help a bit?


----------



## Guest (Mar 15, 2016)

I think that those of us with arthritis in the fretting hand will soon be learning how to play slide.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

colchar said:


> I have arthritis in my hands (well all over really) and am now making the switch to thicker necked guitars. I did not ice a pain in the thumb when trying one with a ridiculously thick neck at L&M so I will have to be conscious of that. I was thinking that, when making the switch, I should improve my technique and bring my thumb down a bit on the back of the neck. *Would repositioning yours maybe help a bit?*


I have not been playing my two acoustic guitars that have thick necks and the symptoms have subsided significantly. I played an acoustic with a thin (in comparison) neck for almost 1 1/2 hours last night and I felt fine afterwards. 

If your question about repositioning one's thumb was directed at me, I would agree that it is an excellent idea. However, it is difficult for this old dog to learn new tricks.

I hope moving to guitars with thicker necks helps you to decrease/eliminate your thumb pain and allow you to enjoy playing.


----------



## colchar (May 22, 2010)

greco said:


> If your question about repositioning one's thumb was directed at me, I would agree that it is an excellent idea.


It was.



> However, it is difficult for this old dog to learn new tricks.


I haven't even been playing that long and I get it, I find it difficult too.




> I hope moving to guitars with thicker necks helps you to decrease/eliminate your thumb pain and allow you to enjoy playing.


Thanks, hoping you find relief too.


----------

