# COVID-19 Updates



## Milkman

As the other thread is now too polluted with bickering I'd like to try a new thread.

I'm hoping we can keep it helpful and informative but that takes everybody's (including myself) effort.

It's not possible to separate the political aspects from this situation _completely, _but this should not be the place to express your disdain for or support for any particular political figure or party.

I figure it's worth a try.

Everybody is welcome to participate of course.

Wuhan, China’s coronavirus epicentre, ends 76-day lockdown


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## sambonee

Worth a try, yes? Able to separate as you say very tough. Important info for everyone absolutely. 

I’ve been checking out sky news Australia with some good results. 
One thing is for sure, music and isolation go well together. Our economy not so much. 

do we finally have a verdict one what the face mask protocol is supposed to be?


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## Milkman

sambonee said:


> Worth a try, yes? Able to separate as you say very tough. Important info for everyone absolutely.
> 
> I’ve been checking out sky news Australia with some good results.
> One thing is for sure, music and isolation go well together. Our economy not so much.
> 
> do we finally have a verdict one what the face mask protocol is supposed to be?


That seems to be up in the air. I read that the corona virus is approximately 0.6 microns in size and that it easily passes through all but the most advanced masks or respirators.

That seems to imply (and some have stated it) that the mask helps protect others from you, but offers very little protection to you from infected people.

I'm not stating facts here, just something I read yesterday.

I'd be happy to be better informed.


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## Milkman

Small ray of sunshine.

COVID-19 outbreak at retirement home declared over


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## tomee2

IHME | COVID-19 Projections

New source of data and predictions. This organization is funded by bill gates, and is the model Dr Brix referee to a week or so back.
No numbers for Canada though. I suspect they are working on adding all countries soon, as some EU countries were added on the weekend.

I personally find a few of the predictions for some states on low side. Also, NY just announced that deaths at home with no COVID test will now be added to the death estimates. They are seeing 250 at home deaths per day, where 25 is typical. As many as 2000 more could be added to the current totals. At home deaths are happening in larger than expected numbers in Chicago as well.


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## tomee2

Milkman said:


> Small ray of sunshine.
> 
> COVID-19 outbreak at retirement home declared over


Good news yes, but if I’m reading it right no one in the home actually got sick? A person visited, then tested positive, and then they monitored people in contact and they all test negative.


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## Milkman

tomee2 said:


> Good news yes, but if I’m reading it right no one in the home actually got sick? A person visited, then tested positive, and then they monitored people in contact and they all test negative.


Yup something like that. I spoke to someone yesterday who has a parent in that building. They were cautiously optimistic.

It seems like once there's a case in such a place, it's like dropping grenades.


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## player99

Meanwhile in Almonte...

Largest COVID-19 outbreak in eastern Ontario hits Almonte long-term care home


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## Milkman

This is two days old, but...

COVID-19 outbreak worsens at Hagersville long-term care home


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## tomee2

Well, the checks worked at one home, but not at others. I really hope they can get it under control.


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## mhammer

A much-beloved 94 year-old aunt of mine is in a nursing home. Her kids had hired a personal service worker to help her a little while back, but all PSWs have been banished from the building. Naturally, we can't visit her. Unfortunately, because the absence of PSWs leaves the permanent staff stretched, they don't have any time to bring her down to the front doors for a through-the-glass visit. Just as sadly, her hearing loss makes it near impossible to have a phone conversation. I suppose if there is any good side, I keep my eyes peeled for death announcements, and despite its size, I've yet to see anyone from that facility passing. Fingers crossed that they ride it out.


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## davetcan

I've locked the other thread in an attempt to slow down the stupidity. Let's try and keep this one on track. The other thread is still viewable for entertainment purposes.


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## guitarman2

Milkman said:


> That seems to imply (and some have stated it) that the mask helps protect others from you, but offers very little protection to you from infected people.


I've repeatedly heard this as well. I don't understand it though. How can it keep the virus from getting out if you're wearing it as a sick person but not keep it from coming in from others? Maybe we should wear it inside out.


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## davetcan

Absorbed into your eyes.


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## Milkman

guitarman2 said:


> I've repeatedly heard this as well. I don't understand it though. How can it keep the virus from getting out if you're wearing it as a sick person but not keep it from coming in from others? Maybe we should wear it inside out.


Because it at least stops the expectorant from its full distance and speed maybe?

The reality is that the virus is MUCH smaller in diameter than most of the masks can block including those being used by front line medical workers.

Again, I am NOT expert in this and would be happy to hear any other opinions on the topic.


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## Milkman

davetcan said:


> I've locked the other thread in an attempt to slow down the stupidity. Let's try and keep this one on track. The other thread is still viewable for entertainment purposes.


For my part in that, I apologize. I'm trying.


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## torndownunit

tomee2 said:


> Good news yes, but if I’m reading it right no one in the home actually got sick? A person visited, then tested positive, and then they monitored people in contact and they all test negative.


There are 5 confirmed cases at the main home in my town right now, and an outbreak at our hospital. I am really glad my Dad isn't in either right now. Unfortunately my brother, my sister in law, and one of my best friends all work at the hospital.


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## sambonee

Lumping in the death toll at home is awfully vague. Playing into the bigger numbers encourages a greater acceptance of more government control beyond the necessary. 

I personally don’t believe in govt being like “dad”.


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## Chito

Hopefully this thread doesn't get into another shit show.

So 10-12 weeks is usually the timetable for the lock down based on other countries including China. That is if everyone stays home. So the saying July should really be doable.


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## Milkman

Chito said:


> Hopefully this thread doesn't get into another shit show.
> 
> So 10-12 weeks is usually the timetable for the lock down based on other countries including China. That is if everyone stays home. So the saying July should really be doable.


That is the intent behind this thread.

And let's hope for July, but I think maybe August or September is more likely.


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## guitarman2

sambonee said:


> Lumping in the death toll at home is awfully vague. Playing into the bigger numbers encourages a greater acceptance of more government control beyond the necessary.
> 
> *I personally don’t believe in govt being like “dad”.*


Personally I agree with you. Although I'm torn on this. On one hand there are just to many people with out common sense to take the necessary precautions on their own.
On the other hand everything gets shut down and we're all going to the grocery store to walk through each others air and touch everything that every other person has touched. It makes no sense to me.


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## Ship of fools

Nothing entertaining about the way the other one went Dave,sad as it is.
Well my daughter is in lock down which means no grandson for another 10 days sucks the big one for papa bear. And it looks like BC is doing better then most others. Maybe because we managed to get a jump on it before it went to nuts.Who knows.
I kind of get it folks are scared and react before they can sometimes think but please try to remember these are just letters on a screen and should not cause one to curse or expose a so called weakness in what you interpret those letters mean. Sometimes it just won't make any sense to one other but that's no reason to do the hate thing.
We are living in a very different world right now and we need to support each other and over look what we perceive as wrong in this time of great need of support and maybe we can come out ahead of our fears.
Its time for us to come together right now and be the best we can be to each other and show some compassion towards each other as we have seen far to much sickness and death and I know for me it weighs heavy on my heart to see so much suffering of families including this one and all its doing is tearing us apart more.
Please one and all take a step back and remember why you are here and while it is a guitar forum we should consider our self's to be fortunate to be here and a Canadian with some of the best health care in the world and health care workers ( my family included in that ) who are there for us and show up to make sure your okay and your family is alright.


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## Milkman

guitarman2 said:


> Personally I agree with you. Although I'm torn on this. On one hand there are just to many people with out common sense to take the necessary precautions on their own.
> On the other hand everything gets shut down and we're all going to the grocery store to walk through each others air and touch everything that every other person has touched. It makes no sense to me.


The jury's still out regarding airborne transmission, but we know you don't get it through your hands. You DO get it when you touch your face after your hands have the virus on them.
So, touching items in the grocery store that a worker may have touched shouldn't be the real dangerous part.

When I MUST go to the store, the second I return to the car I douse my hands in hand sanitizer. The key is avoiding touching your face first and as many have noted, it's shocking how often we do so.

I'm really trying to reduce / break that habit and even though I have always washed my hands frequently, I have even ramped that up considerably.


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## guitarman2

Milkman said:


> The jury's still out regarding airborne transmission, but we know you don't get it through your hands. You DO get it when you touch your face after your hands have the virus on them.
> So, touching items in the grocery store that a worker may have touched shouldn't be the real dangerous part.
> 
> When I MUST go to the store, the second I return to the car I douse my hands in hand sanitizer. The key is avoiding touching your face first and as many have noted, it's shocking how often we do so.
> 
> I'm really trying to reduce / break that habit and even though I have always washed my hands frequently, I have even ramped that up considerably.


Right now, there's nothing living on my hands including my skin.


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## mhammer

Ship of fools said:


> Nothing entertaining about the way the other one went Dave,sad as it is.
> Well my daughter is in lock down which means no grandson for another 10 days sucks the big one for papa bear. And it looks like BC is doing better then most others. Maybe because we managed to get a jump on it before it went to nuts.Who knows.
> I kind of get it folks are scared and react before they can sometimes think but please try to remember these are just letters on a screen and should not cause one to curse or expose a so called weakness in what you interpret those letters mean. Sometimes it just won't make any sense to one other but that's no reason to do the hate thing.
> We are living in a very different world right now and we need to support each other and over look what we perceive as wrong in this time of great need of support and maybe we can come out ahead of our fears.
> Its time for us to come together right now and be the best we can be to each other and show some compassion towards each other as we have seen far to much sickness and death and I know for me it weighs heavy on my heart to see so much suffering of families including this one and all its doing is tearing us apart more.
> Please one and all take a step back and remember why you are here and while it is a guitar forum we should consider our self's to be fortunate to be here and a Canadian with some of the best health care in the world and health care workers ( my family included in that ) who are there for us and show up to make sure your okay and your family is alright.


One commentator I heard on CBC radio yesterday noted that what helped BC was that the province's schools had March Break a week earlier than Ontario and Quebec. According to the individual, this facilitated both testing and stay-at-home measures more in BC than in the other two provinces. Interesting hypothesis. I'm in no position to debate it.

Aggression is generally elicited by a few things: fear/threat, frustration, and in the case of humans, perceptions of unfairness. The latter has a magical way of turning into the former as a perceived inequity gets viewed as deliberate, targetted, and hence a threat. Of course, the anonymity of the internet doesn't help matters, and the brevity of many posts, absent of the sort of contextual info that allows others to think "Oh, I see what they're getting at, and why", aided and abetted by how people express themselves via a phone, doesn't help either.


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## guitarman2

One thing I've been saying for a few weeks now is that I can't see a way that we return to normalcy until there is a vaccine. The article below states that and although its an opinion of one doctor, to me it makes sense. However with a vaccine a year to 18 months out what damage does that cause to the economy. Although I imagine many of us don't want to think about it I can see we sink in to a Venezuelan scenario.
Shutting down our economy for potentially 18 months is going to cause irreparable harm to the economy. We can't continue like this yet we can't attempt to return to a normal economy. We are in one fuck of a spot.

Ex-Obama adviser Dr. Emanuel explains what it will take for America to 'return to full normalcy'


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## Wardo

guitarman2 said:


> .. We are in one fuck of a spot.
> '


That’s my view of it. I think the status quo is going to continue for at least a few months and a lot businesses are not going to recover. We are finding that the mail is really slow and even though we have enough work in progress for at least a year nevertheless checks aren’t coming in and lot of our support organizations are closing or slowing down. Might be a few years before business is back to normal. Gonna need a vaccine .


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## Milkman

I, like most I guess, find it easiest to relate to this in the way I have been trained.

With that in mind and I apologize for the oversimplification, I think we need three main things.

1. Root Cause Analysis
2. Short term countermeasures
3. Long term countermeasures

The vaccine falls under number 3 and I agree there's no hope for a real recovery without one.


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## torndownunit

Wardo said:


> That’s my view of it. I think the status quo is going to continue for at least a few months and a lot businesses are not going to recover. We are finding that the mail is really slow and even though we have enough work in progress for at least a year nevertheless checks aren’t coming in and lot of our support organizations are closing or slowing down. Might be a few years before business is back to normal. Gonna need a vaccine .


I am finishing off contracts from before this happened. I don't always get new contracts each month, nor can I always even take them when I am busy. It will take me at least a couple months to have any clue what's happening. I also have no idea what current clients will just end up having to shut down.


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## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> The jury's still out regarding airborne transmission, but we know you don't get it through your hands. You DO get it when you touch your face after your hands have the virus on them.
> So, touching items in the grocery store that a worker may have touched shouldn't be the real dangerous part.


Except it seems the virus can live for a time.....the jury is still out on exactly how long....on surfaces so, suppose the worker has the virus on his hands and transmits that virus onto the product. You pick up the product and get the virus on your hands.....somewhere along the way, probably within 10 minutes or so, you touch your face....maybe your glasses have slipped and you push them back into place. There you go. 
On another note,

Coronavirus: Toronto recalls $200K worth of ‘poor quality’ masks distributed to long-term care homes


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## allthumbs56

guitarman2 said:


> One thing I've been saying for a few weeks now is that I can't see a way that we return to normalcy until there is a vaccine. The article below states that and although its an opinion of one doctor, to me it makes sense. However with a vaccine a year to 18 months out what damage does that cause to the economy. Although I imagine many of us don't want to think about it I can see we sink in to a Venezuelan scenario.
> Shutting down our economy for potentially 18 months is going to cause irreparable harm to the economy. We can't continue like this yet we can't attempt to return to a normal economy. We are in one fuck of a spot.
> 
> Ex-Obama adviser Dr. Emanuel explains what it will take for America to 'return to full normalcy'


To the best of my knowledge they never developed a vaxxine for SARS. It can't compare to Covid-19 though - it infected only 8,000 worldwide, was much harder to spread, and went away relatively quickly. If SARS was used as the example for how countries should prepare for an epidemic then it would explain why we are so far behind the 8-ball today. By way of comparison, there were 448 total cases of SARS in Canada and a total of 44 deaths.

SARS in Canada | The Canadian Encyclopedia

How could we possibly be prepared for what is happening today?


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## Milkman

Electraglide said:


> Except it seems the virus can live for a time.....the jury is still out on exactly how long....on surfaces so, suppose the worker has the virus on his hands and transmits that virus onto the product. You pick up the product and get the virus on your hands.....somewhere along the way, probably within 10 minutes or so, you touch your face....maybe your glasses have slipped and you push them back into place. There you go.
> On another note,
> 
> Coronavirus: Toronto recalls $200K worth of ‘poor quality’ masks distributed to long-term care homes


That's why I said "When I MUST go to the store, the second I return to the car I douse my hands in hand sanitizer. The key is avoiding touching your face first and as many have noted, it's shocking how often we do so.".

You HAVE to focus on not touching your face before you wash your hands. I can't guarantee I'm 100% in that respect, but I'm sure as hell trying. It's not hard for me to not touch my face for the time it takes to get back to the car.


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## Doug Gifford

davetcan said:


> I've locked the other thread in an attempt to slow down the stupidity. Let's try and keep this one on track. The other thread is still viewable for entertainment purposes.


Thank you. Someday, when our descendants are researching some deeply obscure sociological doodaw for their Ph.D. they will splice the two threads together and watch the ebb and flow of denial and fear, calm and friendship, anxiety and hostility as the early stages of the lockdown turned into the reality of the situation. They will, of course, come to the conclusion that further research is needed.


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## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> That's why I said "When I MUST go to the store, the second I return to the car I douse my hands in hand sanitizer. The key is avoiding touching your face first and as many have noted, it's shocking how often we do so.".
> 
> You HAVE to focus on not touching your face before you wash your hands. I can't guarantee I'm 100% in that respect, but I'm sure as hell trying. It's not hard for me to not touch my face for the time it takes to get back to the car.


Problem is there are times when you almost can't avoid touching your face.....especially when you wear glasses. Or, if you wear a mask, adjusting that mask. Problem is with most masks they don't fit worth a damn. 
Anyway, because I don't have to play phone tag with Drs. and the powers that be today I'm going out and do some shopping.....supposedly one of the grocery stores I shop at is now open again. An employee tested positive so they shut the whole mall down for two weeks to disinfect it. Not just the day or two that other places have done. First place I'll have to hit is the bank to get cash from the ATM. 


Doug Gifford said:


> Thank you. Someday, when our descendants are researching some deeply obscure sociological doodaw for their Ph.D. they will splice the two threads together and watch the ebb and flow of denial and fear, calm and friendship, anxiety and hostility as the early stages of the lockdown turned into the reality of the situation. They will, of course, come to the conclusion that further research is needed.


And get a very large gov't grant that will last them a couple of years.


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## laristotle

EDITORIAL: Hard lessons to be learned from COVID-19

_One of the few good things that can come out of the COVID-19 pandemic is to learn how to better prepare for the next one.

In Canada, we’re paying the price for governments of all stripes failing to learn the lessons of the SARS epidemic in 2002-03, in which 44 Canadians died, and the H1N1 pandemic in 2009, in which 428 Canadians died.

Tragically, more Canadians will die from COVID-19 than SARS and H1N1 combined.

Primary among the lessons those previous two outbreaks should have taught our governments is *the importance of stockpiling pandemic medical supplies and keeping them up to date.*

Canada, along with many other countries, failed to do this.

Another area that bears scrutiny is the conduct of the United Nations’ World Health Organization during this pandemic.

It appears to have simply taken the word of China’s dictators that they had COVID-19 contained after it was traced in December to a seafood and live animal market in Wuhan, a city of 11 million.

Because of that, critics of the WHO say, other countries let down their guards until it was too late.

While the WHO and its director general Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus repeatedly praised China’s response to the outbreak, we now know China was suppressing key information in the crucial early weeks of the global spread of COVID-19.

This included harassing Dr. Li Wenliang, a 34-year-old ophthalmologist, who first warned that COVID-19 was capable of human-to-human transmission, which China’s government denied until it was too late. Li died from COVID-19.

By the time Chinese authorities locked down Wuhan on Jan. 23 — again to praise from Ghebreyesus — it was too late, because the highly contagious coronavirus was already spreading across China and internationally, unknowingly carried by air travellers.

Critics of the WHO say China has too much influence in its decision-making, noting it supported Ghebreyesus when he was elected director general in 2017.

Whatever happened, the WHO’s role in the COVID-19 pandemic requires independent examination._


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## keto

Milkman said:


> That's why I said "When I MUST go to the store, the second I return to the car I douse my hands in hand sanitizer. The key is avoiding touching your face first and as many have noted, it's shocking how often we do so.".
> 
> You HAVE to focus on not touching your face before you wash your hands. I can't guarantee I'm 100% in that respect, but I'm sure as hell trying. It's not hard for me to not touch my face for the time it takes to get back to the car.



I've 100% given up trying to think of the car as a 'safe space'. Might be possible for someone else, but I consider it an infected zone, period, unless not used at all for I'm going to call it 72 hours. Touch away anywhere in the car, just don't pick my nose or poke my eye. I'm contaminated when I get out of the car, as are any home surfaces I touch before I hit the handwash (doorknob(s) if mrs isn't there to open for me etc).

Doesn't matter at all right now, haven't driven since 3/26 at this point. Out of isolation Saturday upcoming, but even then don't need to go anywhere until we need milk/bread/etc. Daughter's been doing online (over) ordering and dropping stuff here, so it probably won't be necessary in the short term.


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## Electraglide

keto said:


> I've 100% given up trying to think of the car as a 'safe space'. Might be possible for someone else, but I consider it an infected zone, period, unless not used at all for I'm going to call it 72 hours. Touch away anywhere in the car, just don't pick my nose or poke my eye. I'm contaminated when I get out of the car, as are any home surfaces I touch before I hit the handwash (doorknob(s) if mrs isn't there to open for me etc).
> 
> Doesn't matter at all right now, haven't driven since 3/26 at this point. Out of isolation Saturday upcoming, but even then don't need to go anywhere until we need milk/bread/etc. Daughter's been doing online (over) ordering and dropping stuff here, so it probably won't be necessary in the short term.


Just as a side note, back in high school one of the had to read stories along with this, _*The Chrysalids*, _was a story about a society who all stayed in their rooms. Did everything from there, even seeing drs. etc..


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## Milkman

As well as sanitizing my hands the second I get back into the car I also wipe the steering when and shifter. Nothing's perfect, but short of wearing a haz mat suit with a respirator I don't know what else I can do.


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## Milkman

keto said:


> I've 100% given up trying to think of the car as a 'safe space'. Might be possible for someone else, but I consider it an infected zone, period, unless not used at all for I'm going to call it 72 hours. Touch away anywhere in the car, just don't pick my nose or poke my eye. I'm contaminated when I get out of the car, as are any home surfaces I touch before I hit the handwash (doorknob(s) if mrs isn't there to open for me etc).
> 
> Doesn't matter at all right now, haven't driven since 3/26 at this point. Out of isolation Saturday upcoming, but even then don't need to go anywhere until we need milk/bread/etc. Daughter's been doing online (over) ordering and dropping stuff here, so it probably won't be necessary in the short term.



Do I understand you correctly in that you intend to come out of isolation on Saturday?

I'd consider extending that, although you did say you don't intend to go anywhere.


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## keto

Milkman said:


> Do I understand you correctly in that you intend to come out of isolation on Saturday?
> 
> I'd consider extending that, although you did say you don't intend to go anywhere.


As I posted in the other thread, I have to get out to the bank and post office very short term. Unless I get sick again, I can't really put it off past Tuesday.


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## Electraglide

keto said:


> As I posted in the other thread, I have to get out to the bank and post office very short term. Unless I get sick again, I can't really put it off past Tuesday.


Depending on your bank check to see what branches are opened and if you have to book an appointment. The closest RBC to me seems to be by appointment only right now. The closest BMO might be by appointment or strictly wait in line or because it's in a mall it could be closed now except for ATMs. 
@laristotle......from what I underestand there was talk of using supplies left over or stock piled from SARS/MER/H1N1. Not too sure if they did that or if these supplies were up to date but I can't see mace masks and coveralls going bad. Gloves I'm not sure of.


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## Milkman

Not everybody can make these changes as others here have explained, but I think there are also many who just don't trust internet banking, tap debit and other systems that can eliminate the need to visit banks.

Cash? Most people will say it's among the filthiest things you can touch, right up there with a hotel TV remote and public bathroom doorknobs.

For most purchases, my card and the product is all I touch.


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## laristotle

Electraglide said:


> .. there was talk of using supplies left over or stock piled from SARS/MER/H1N1.
> Not too sure if they did that or if these supplies were up to date ..


Ontario stockpiled millions of face masks after SARS. As COVID-19 nears pandemic status, they're all expired

_It cost the provincial government $3 million per year to store the masks_


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## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> Not everybody can make these changes as others here have explained, but I think there are also many who just don't trust internet banking, tap debit and other systems that can eliminate the need to visit banks.
> 
> Cash? Most people will say it's among the filthiest things you can touch, right up there with a hotel TV remote and public bathroom doorknobs.
> 
> For most purchases, my card and the product is all I touch.


For me tap debit is out....it goes to the checking account and that is only used for the mortgage payment and life insurance. Plus, on my account there is a limit to how much I can use tap for.....$100/purchase and $200 accumulated then I have to use the card normally, put in a reader and tap the buttons. My savings account I am allowed 10 free interact uses then I pay per use. That includes paying for my cell phones and making a payment on my credit card. By getting cash from an ATM I cut down the amount of interact uses/touching a card reader. I figure those card readers are probably worse than cash. Not wanting or having data on my cell phones eliminates using them for banking. With a lot of placec being closed there are a lot less wifi hot spots. 
You're right about cash being dirty tho....they say a dog or cat's tongue is cleaner. I don't have to worry about hotel tv remotes and around here a lot of public bathrooms are closed right now so no worry there either.


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## Electraglide

laristotle said:


> Ontario stockpiled millions of face masks after SARS. As COVID-19 nears pandemic status, they're all expired
> 
> _It cost the provincial government $3 million per year to store the masks_


Well I suppose you could call this a “crisis” shortage situation. Like a lot of things there is the "may" factor as in 'may be less effective'. Then again they probably will be effective especially when it's a choice between having them or having nothing. "If some expired respirators are still in storage, they may still be usable. In 2017, the CDC tested stockpiled masks and found many models continued to perform effectively years after their expiration." from what is said at the end it sounds like BC has a better handle on storing things and being prepared than other places in Canada.


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## allthumbs56

"Same as it ever was" .........

Wuhan is returning to life. So are its disputed wet markets

damn


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## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> Ontario stockpiled millions of face masks after SARS. As COVID-19 nears pandemic status, they're all expired
> 
> _It cost the provincial government $3 million per year to store the masks_


I wonder how long they stored them after they expired?


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## Milkman

What "expires" in a face mask?


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## tomee2

sambonee said:


> Lumping in the death toll at home is awfully vague. Playing into the bigger numbers encourages a greater acceptance of more government control beyond the necessary.
> 
> I personally don’t believe in govt being like “dad”.


Well, the problem of ignoring it is you are then open to be criticized for hiding deaths, as im now hearing about the China numbers, and recently about Italy. 

Another thing about at home deaths, in the US mainly, is that many people there will avoid the hospitals because of no coverage. I don’t think that’s an issue In Canada. My point is that a spike in home deaths in a neighborhood or county could mean there is another hotspot and testing in that area needs to be done. Ignoring them just lets the virus spread.


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## tomee2

Milkman said:


> What "expires" in a face mask?


The elastics. I know, my 8 year old masks have broken elastics.


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## boyscout

One for @Electraglide and others:


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## keto

Not directly covid, but some may recall from the other thread my 76 yr old mom was in hospital in rural MB, broken femur around the hip implant joint. She thought she was gonna be OK, couple weeks in isolation. Nope, new imaging, has to be transferred by ambulance to Winnipeg hospital for surgery then back to Selkirk again for a few days.

Nobody is thrilled with this news. She's in good spirits, but still.


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## jb welder

keto said:


> Not directly covid, but some may recall from the other thread my 76 yr old mom was in hospital in rural MB, broken femur around the hip implant joint. She thought she was gonna be OK, couple weeks in isolation. Nope, new imaging, has to be transferred by ambulance to Winnipeg hospital for surgery then back to Selkirk again for a few days.


Might not be much consolation, but only 12 people with the illness currently hospitalized in the entire province. If you had to pick a place right now, you could do worse.


----------



## Milkman

keto said:


> Not directly covid, but some may recall from the other thread my 76 yr old mom was in hospital in rural MB, broken femur around the hip implant joint. She thought she was gonna be OK, couple weeks in isolation. Nope, new imaging, has to be transferred by ambulance to Winnipeg hospital for surgery then back to Selkirk again for a few days.
> 
> Nobody is thrilled with this news. She's in good spirits, but still.



As you know, that's a serious situation at the best of times.

I hope she's ok.


----------



## boyscout

Video at the link below offers explanation with animations of the mechanics of viruses and the body's defense against them.

How COVID-19 differs from the typical flu - 680 NEWS


----------



## Wardo

Mike, maybe best to leave it be; there could a lot bigger problems coming our way with this virus storm.


----------



## laristotle

mike_oxbig said:


> Who the fuck, why the fuck. Step down, you suck.


You forgot to capitalize. Oh .. and at least three exclamation marks.


----------



## Dorian2

In other non Lola centric news.

China outraged after Brazil minister suggests Covid-19 is part of 'plan for world domination' | Brazil | The Guardian


----------



## Wardo

Well I guess that answers that ... lol


----------



## laristotle

I wont dispute what you've typed, however, this is not the place to bring that up.
Come over to the dark side (political forum) and enjoy the free-for-all there.


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> I wont dispute what you've typed, however, this is not the place to bring that up.
> Come over to the dark side (political forum) and enjoy the free-for-all there.


You'll be right at home with us 

Oh, and Dave is a guy of very high quality - he let that shit go on for way too long. As I said, join us in the Political Forums - almost anything goes.


----------



## Electraglide

boyscout said:


> One for @Electraglide and others:
> 
> View attachment 304142


Damned straight for most of those things. The first 3, yes: the next one, no and the one after that, sometimes. Then it's a maybe, a no, a doesn't matter on a motorcycle....even for the passenger and a "Say what?". As far as a bike itself goes, I'm looking at a private deal on the Sunshine Coast. Sorta like this but not as clean.








Hopefully the roads clear up between here and there by the end of April.


----------



## Electraglide

Dorian2 said:


> In other non Lola centric news.
> 
> China outraged after Brazil minister suggests Covid-19 is part of 'plan for world domination' | Brazil | The Guardian


Maybe the guy in Brazil follows these people.
QAnon conspiracy theories about the coronavirus pandemic are a public health threat


----------



## RBlakeney

Electraglide said:


> For me tap debit is out....it goes to the checking account and that is only used for the mortgage payment and life insurance. Plus, on my account there is a limit to how much I can use tap for.....$100/purchase and $200 accumulated then I have to use the card normally, put in a reader and tap the buttons. My savings account I am allowed 10 free interact uses then I pay per use. That includes paying for my cell phones and making a payment on my credit card. By getting cash from an ATM I cut down the amount of interact uses/touching a card reader. I figure those card readers are probably worse than cash. Not wanting or having data on my cell phones eliminates using them for banking. With a lot of placec being closed there are a lot less wifi hot spots.
> You're right about cash being dirty tho....they say a dog or cat's tongue is cleaner. I don't have to worry about hotel tv remotes and around here a lot of public bathrooms are closed right now so no worry there either.


You can call and change the position of your accounts on your debit card FYI, also may be worth while changing your savings acct to a chequing acct for the short term.


----------



## Electraglide

RBlakeney said:


> You can call and change the position of your accounts on your debit card FYI, also may be worth while changing your savings acct to a chequing acct for the short term.


Nah. As I said, the checking account is tied to the mortgage and life insurance. Problem is with that is the checking account is a joint account and my name is second. From what the bank said not that long ago is the only way to change things is to cancel the account and start a new one. That's a very large PIA. I'll keep things the way they are. And I'll still keep using cash.


----------



## RBlakeney

Electraglide said:


> Nah. As I said, the checking account is tied to the mortgage and life insurance. Problem is with that is the checking account is a joint account and my name is second. From what the bank said not that long ago is the only way to change things is to cancel the account and start a new one. That's a very large PIA. I'll keep things the way they are. And I'll still keep using cash.


You don’t change the account when you change the position on your card, it’s just position number 1 which is what tap and visa debit would use. keep using cash if that’s what your comfortable doing, just giving some advice on how you are able to use tap if you prefer.


----------



## Dorian2

RBlakeney said:


> You don’t change the account when you change the position on your card, it’s just position number 1 which is what tap and visa debit would use. keep using cash if that’s what your comfortable doing, just giving some advice on how you are able to use tap if you prefer.


I believe the Primary account holder has to make the change. At my bank you do anyway.


----------



## RBlakeney

Dorian2 said:


> I believe the Primary account holder has to make the change. At my bank you do anyway.


Incorrect. To change the account position on your debit card doesn’t change the account. The cardholder would do that.


----------



## Dorian2




----------



## vadsy

Dorian2 said:


>


Simpsons did it first


----------



## Dorian2

RBlakeney said:


> Incorrect. To change the account position on your debit card doesn’t change the account. The cardholder would do that.


Right. I misunderstood. That it was the Account.


----------



## Electraglide

Dorian2 said:


> I believe the Primary account holder has to make the change. At my bank you do anyway.


Yup, that's what the bank said and most of the time the primary account holder would prefer to piss on my grave.


----------



## RBlakeney

Dorian2 said:


> Right. I misunderstood. That it was the Account.


That’s fair. People seem to get very confused over the account names and positions. Chequing acct vs saving accounts are really just the fee structure. You can have a “savings” account In the “chequing” acct position, it would just generally be a bad idea and expensive to use.


----------



## Electraglide

Dorian2 said:


>


"Here Piggy, Piggy.". One of the required reading books, English 10 I believe.


----------



## vadsy

Electraglide said:


> "Here Piggy, Piggy.". One of the required reading books, English 10 I believe.


Of coarse


----------



## RBlakeney

Electraglide said:


> Yup, that's what the bank said and most of the time the primary account holder would prefer to piss on my grave.


A joint acct holder would have nothing to do with how you set up your accounts on your debit card.
If it helps you to believe me, I am a manager, for a bank, for the department that fixes issues.


----------



## player99

I bought a large supply of food and things for my father on Monday. About $350 worth. I put everything in plastic bags, wore a N95 mask and nitril gloves, stripped outside my house before I entered, then washed and changed my clothes and shoes etc. Drove to my father's house. Brought the bags into the house in boxes. Filled the sink full of hot water and lots of dish soap. With masks and gloves and lots and lots of paper towel my father and I washed and dried all those groceries. I carefully disposed of all the plastic bags. It was a lot of work. So far neither of us have any symptoms.


----------



## Electraglide

Anyway, back to covid19. I wonder if when they give the death total they include other deaths because of the virus or do they ignore them along with the "in home" deaths? And, how many people die as a direct result of the virus? Seems a lot of people, especially the older ones, have other major medical problems and the virus just contributes to their death. 
When I was out today it seemed that most people, even those on the street, were doing the best they could do for social distancing. There was one young couple tho.....looked like high school kids, who I guess just couldn't take phone sex anymore. If you could get pregnant through osmosis she'd be looking for baby clothes about christmas time.


RBlakeney said:


> A joint acct holder would have nothing to do with how you set up your accounts on your debit card.
> If it helps you to believe me, I am a manager, for a bank, for the department that fixes issues.


If it wasn't for the problem with the main holder of the account I might consider it if I was the type of person who did things electronically. That being said and depending on how much my GST extra is I'll probably take some of that money and start an account somewhere else. I should be able to get an account where I get more than 10 free interact uses per month among other things. There seem to be limits on the tap thing but I'm not interested in that.


----------



## keto

player99 said:


> I bought a large supply of food and things for my father on Monday. About $350 worth. I put everything in plastic bags, wore a N95 mask and nitril gloves, stripped outside my house before I entered, then washed and changed my clothes and shoes etc. Drove to my father's house. Brought the bags into the house in boxes. Filled the sink full of hot water and lots of dish soap. With masks and gloves and lots and lots of paper towel my father and I washed and dried all those groceries. I carefully disposed of all the plastic bags. It was a lot of work. So far neither of us have any symptoms.


Today’s Journal


----------



## Electraglide

player99 said:


> I bought a large supply of food and things for my father on Monday. About $350 worth. I put everything in plastic bags, wore a N95 mask and nitril gloves, stripped outside my house before I entered, then washed and changed my clothes and shoes etc. Drove to my father's house. Brought the bags into the house in boxes. Filled the sink full of hot water and lots of dish soap. With masks and gloves and lots and lots of paper towel my father and I washed and dried all those groceries. I carefully disposed of all the plastic bags. It was a lot of work. So far neither of us have any symptoms.


I have yet to see anything about how long it takes before you show symptoms. A day, two days, a week? They say that some people don't show symptoms. BTW what did the neighbours say as you stripped down?


----------



## player99

keto said:


> Today’s Journal
> View attachment 304242


I Javex'd the sink first. I heard a research doctor on CBC radio saying the virus is the type that is destroyed my common soap. Something about the outer waxy shell gets destroyed. No chicken guts germs after the Javex'd sink.



Electraglide said:


> I have yet to see anything about how long it takes before you show symptoms. A day, two days, a week? They say that some people don't show symptoms. BTW what did the neighbours say as you stripped down?


I live on a 200 acre farm with no neighbours anywhere. Self isolation is business as usual out here. My security cameras would have recorded it though.


----------



## player99

keto said:


> Today’s Journal
> View attachment 304242


I disagree with this. They are saying put your loose tomatoes right in the fridge. I don't think that is as safe as washing and rinsing and drying them before they hit the fridge.


----------



## Electraglide

keto said:


> Today’s Journal
> View attachment 304242


The local grocery store near me advises people to wash the fruits and veggies but that's because they have people constantly going round and disinfecting display cases etc. that the fruits and veggies are in. They also do the same everywhere else in the store. In that case you are not washing off the virus, you are washing off the disinfectant just as it says, with cold running water.


----------



## davetcan

Well this is going really well


----------



## Electraglide

player99 said:


> I Javex'd the sink first. I heard a research doctor on CBC radio saying the virus is the type that is destroyed my common soap. Something about the outer waxy shell gets destroyed. No chicken guts germs after the Javex'd sink.
> 
> 
> 
> I live on a 200 acre farm with no neighbours anywhere. Self isolation is business as usual out here. My security cameras would have recorded it though.


I hope your security cameras are in house and don't go over the web so you can see them on your phone. could end up something like this.


----------



## player99

Electraglide said:


> I hope your security cameras are in house and don't go over the web so you can see them on your phone. could end up something like this.


My balls are so big I need an Imax camera to fit them in the screen.


----------



## Electraglide

davetcan said:


> Well this is going really well


That's one of the required reading books I was trying to think of, along with

















Thanks Dave.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Electraglide said:


> "Here Piggy, Piggy.". One of the required reading books, English 10 I believe.


Hated that book. Didn't want to believe that humans were intrinsically evil.


----------



## Electraglide

player99 said:


> My balls are so big I need an Imax camera to fit them in the screen.


They say that *Hydrocele *among other things can be a real pain and make it hard to walk.


----------



## Electraglide

Doug Gifford said:


> Hated that book. Didn't want to believe that humans were intrinsically evil.


In my high school if you heard chants of, "Here Piggy, Piggy" and "Kill the pig" you knew that "Something Wicked This Way Comes". Shakespeare or Bradbury you were screwed. Townies against the country kids or jocks against the others.


----------



## jb welder

Wardo said:


> Well I guess that answers that ... lol


Is that the guy that used to be over at _Honest Ed's_?


----------



## colchar

GuitarsCanada said:


> Maybe booze involved as well.



Booze? Among a bunch of guitar players? Whoever heard of such a thing????


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> Booze? Among a bunch of guitar players? Whoever heard of such a thing????


See what happens when they close the booze and pot stores. No, seems Ont. deemed pot stores non essential last Saturday and closed them but now are allowing online and phone ordering, store pick-up and home delivery to "curb illegal sales and keep the pot out of the hands of kids". 
Knock Knock. 
Who is it? 
Freddy from the Cannabis Store with a delivery. 
Oh yeah, right. Ummm, Dad ordered some and told me to stay here and accept it. Where do I sign.


----------



## colchar

Electraglide said:


> See what happens when they close the booze and pot stores.



None of out booze or beer stores closed. In fact, they are doing booming business.


----------



## Electraglide

Says in here that 52 pot stores closed on Sat. leaving only the gov't stores open. Then a new law was passed on Tuesday re-opening them. 
Ontario's pot shops to reopen with delivery, click-and-collect options - Article - BNN
I read somewhere else that the liquor stores are now closed on Mondays. Booze stores in Ont. are gov't aren't they? I guess you gotta stock up on Sunday.


----------



## laristotle

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1348893465496221


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Chito

OMFG I go to sleep and look at what happened here. LOL

We're supposed to be talking about the pandemic. So where were we? 

Oh yeah pot stores. Well I think it's good that they changed the law on that. I have friends who don't have medical prescriptions but really need it.. One friend is dealing with the big C and he's finally found oil that works for his sleeping and appetite. But he can only get it in the pot stores. Doesn't have a medical marijuana license or whatever you call it coz the last time he asked his doctor, the doctor said, he was looking at the protocol that he has to go through to prescribe it.


----------



## Wardo

jb welder said:


> Is that the guy that used to be over at _Honest Ed's_?


That might have been his dad.


----------



## cdntac

colchar said:


> None of out booze or beer stores closed. In fact, they are doing booming business.


Did you see how much business was booming yesterday afternoon in Rama when the Rama band council decided to shut their cigarette stores down for a week? 

The band council outside of North Bay did that earlier in the week and it was chaos. 

My MiL buys smokes from there and after they closed on Tues my wife and I thought perhaps we’d drive to Rama on Wed to buy some for her just in case they closed.

We were there early, the entire area was quiet and we bought her probably at least 6 weeks worth of smokes. 

Then we saw last night’s news where they decided to close all Rama smoke shops that day. It was complete chaos. Traffic was stopped from Hwy 12 at Atherly all the way past Casino Rama as hundreds and hundreds of people swarmed the area looking to buy smokes before 6 pm.


----------



## Milkman

The Six Nations reserve has also closed it's borders. In this area many people buy cigarettes and gas on the rez. I have a status card so I get really low gas prices (I don't smoke).

Last time I filled up I paid $0.53/liter but no doubt it's even lower now. Of course, we're also not consuming any gas so there's no benefit.


----------



## guitarman2

Milkman said:


> The Six Nations reserve has also closed it's borders. In this area many people buy cigarettes and gas on the rez. I have a status card so I get really low gas prices (I don't smoke).
> 
> Last time I filled up I paid $0.53/liter but no doubt it's even lower now. Of course, we're also not consuming any gas so there's no benefit.


I also have status. Tried to get gas a week ago and they wouldn't let me through. They said the gas stations were closed. The one thing I don't understand is that they barricaded on the 54 right at Painters road. Aren't there non natives that live along the 54?


----------



## cdntac

Last night’s news said that to get into Rama you had to show proof of residence. Otherwise you weren’t getting past the road block. I would assume it’s the same everywhere. Makes sense. 

After reading all the complaints online last night about Rama closing — with people posting how they drove from far away places only to not make it to a store — I don’t blame them for closing. People coming from everywhere doesn’t bode well to keeping the virus out of your community. 

Same rationale with cottage communities not wanting cottagers to visit.


----------



## Milkman

guitarman2 said:


> I also have status. Tried to get gas a week ago and they wouldn't let me through. They said the gas stations were closed. The one thing I don't understand is that they barricaded on the 54 right at Painters road. Aren't there non natives that live along the 54?


I haven't tried to go out there since they closed things up, but I suspect they're letting residents in and out. But they should be closing it in both directions if they're actually trying to accomplish anything. As far as I know natives are still coming and going freely from the Rez.


----------



## Electraglide

From the sounds of it if you plan to go camping in BC this weekend you might as well stay home. All provincial parks are closed and same with federal. Probably a lot of private ones will be too so if you planned to go surfing at Long Beach or ski at a lot of places you'd better check first.


----------



## Ship of fools

Yep looks like BC has closed its doors to outside recreation and someone asked if home deaths are counted and the big answer is yes in BC a 47 year old health worker was a recent one, can't say for other provinces. And so far my store is still open for my CBD's ( helps with my muscle twitches ).
Going to Costco this morning anyone need anything while I'm there. The other day ended up helping a sweet little old lady pay for her groceries she was shy about $40.00 bucks and started to cry so what can you do right. I just feel so blessed to be in a situation where I don't have to fret over money like so many others do.
Can't wait for all of this to be over and have folks go back to normal noticed that a lot of drivers are becoming super aggressive on the road with so few drivers its kind of scary they cut you off no signals and give you the finger or worse start swearing and yelling. 
Heard that if Customs is not happy with your plan to isolate they will do it for you now great to hear and it looks like they may finally start to go after those who are NOT self isolating about time.


----------



## keto

Electraglide said:


> From the sounds of it if you plan to go camping in BC this weekend you might as well stay home. All provincial parks are closed and same with federal. Probably a lot of private ones will be too so if you planned to go surfing at Long Beach or ski at a lot of places you'd better check first.


I wonder how much the (whatever we call our forestry/Rangers) are patrolling non-park crown land.


----------



## allthumbs56

Electraglide said:


> From the sounds of it if you plan to go camping in BC this weekend you might as well stay home.


If you planned to go camping in Ontario this weekend, it snowed today - what were you thinking?


----------



## tomee2

player99 said:


> I disagree with this. They are saying put your loose tomatoes right in the fridge. I don't think that is as safe as washing and rinsing and drying them before they hit the fridge.


Stupid newspaper. 
Of course it’s ok to wash the fruit and veggies. Just rinse them really well under a running tap, and put them right into a clean container not the drying rack or the other dirty sink. I’m tired of misleading headlines and then an article that barely explains what to do.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> If you planned to go camping in Ontario this weekend, it snowed today - what were you thinking?


It did?

Nothin here.


----------



## tomee2

Electraglide said:


> Says in here that 52 pot stores closed on Sat. leaving only the gov't stores open. Then a new law was passed on Tuesday re-opening them.
> Ontario's pot shops to reopen with delivery, click-and-collect options - Article - BNN
> I read somewhere else that the liquor stores are now closed on Mondays. Booze stores in Ont. are gov't aren't they? I guess you gotta stock up on Sunday.


Lcbo monopoly still exists for hard liquor and imported wines. Beer and some wines are now available at some, maybe most by now, grocery stores. 
There are now lineups to get into some of them, at some hours. This long weekend isn’t helping because a lot of people just realized most stores are closed tomorrow.


----------



## tomee2

Well, the US is on track to pass Spain and Italy for total deaths in the next few days. In comparison, I think we’re doing ok. I hope we can hold it together for a few weeks and see the new cases in ON and QC decline, and that BC can continue with they’re very low case numbers. The other provinces seem to be holding steady at lower case numbers and if travel is restricted hopefully it stays out of the more remote places with limited hospital resources. If we stay on track, Canada might just get out of this sooner, and from what I see our financial relief seems to be working out. At least I hope it is.


----------



## tomee2

Milkman said:


> It did?
> 
> Nothin here.


It’s snowing right now in Ottawa...


----------



## Milkman

tomee2 said:


> It’s snowing right now in Ottawa...



Well I like snow, but in April? Not so much.

We seem to be in sort of a banana belt here. Hamilton often gets pounded with lake effect snow while we get flurries (20 minutes drive down the highway).

Same goes for London. They often get much more snow than us and it's 100 km from here.

No complaints here.


----------



## Distortion

Milkman said:


> I haven't tried to go out there since they closed things up, but I suspect they're letting residents in and out. But they should be closing it in both directions if they're actually trying to accomplish anything. As far as I know natives are still coming and going freely from the Rez.


Is the Bingo hall closed at the tracks damn.


----------



## tomee2

Milkman said:


> Well I like snow, but in April? Not so much.
> 
> We seem to be in sort of a banana belt here. Hamilton often gets pounded with lake effect snow while we get flurries (20 minutes drive down the highway).
> 
> Same goes for London. They often get much more snow than us and it's 100 km from here.
> 
> No complaints here.


That escarpment really affects the weather. My in-laws are in the Niagara region and they often talk about the escarpment and what does to rain and snow.


----------



## Milkman

tomee2 said:


> That escarpment really affects the weather. My in-laws are in the Niagara region and they often talk about the escarpment and what does to rain and snow.


I think being so close to a large river (the Grand) may impact us here also, at least in my neighborhood which is less than a km from the riverbanks.

I'm often surprised at how different the weather is from one side of town to another. My Dad and Sister live in St Catherines and they do get winter there for sure.


----------



## mhammer

tomee2 said:


> It’s snowing right now in Ottawa...


Um, are you sure? I'm looking out my window, and just brought the garbage out to the curb, and its raining.

We raked up the leaves in the back yard yesterday. It's amazing how quickly winter disappears from one's thoughts, and how eagerly spring seems to seize things. The last traces of snow in the yard disappeared last week.. The yard is abundant with all sorts of birds. The pair of cardinals that I think is a regular nesting pair here have returned. The woodpeckers are out in droves, and the various nuthatches, wren, and even the odd warbler, are out. The local rabbit has decided that our oregano patch is a perfect spot to set up a hiding place. All the bulbs I planted have their shoots up, though more behind the house, where the light is better, than in front. At least one of the hyacinths has bloomed and another is threatening to pop any minute now. It's not the Victoria blossom count, but it gives hope, and will do nicely.

EDIT: The raindrops are now big goopy snowflakes. I guess we live at the other end of the city from Tomee, and it took a little while for the temp to drop the requisite few degrees here.


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> It did?
> 
> Nothin here.


Parts of Ontario, then.

You can still go camping


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> Parts of Ontario, then.
> 
> You can still go camping


Seems like May 24 is the first time people think it's safe to go camping around here and they almost ALWAYS come back saying it sucked because it rained all frigging weekend and they were stuck in a cold tent. Sounds like fun...


----------



## guitarman2

Milkman said:


> It did?
> 
> Nothin here.


Got in my car this morning at 8 am and turned the wipers on to wipe off a bit of snow and slush so I would guess that it snowed a bit early in the morning here in Brantford.


----------



## Milkman

guitarman2 said:


> Got in my car this morning at 8 am and turned the wipers on to wipe off a bit of snow and slush so I would guess that it snowed a bit early in the morning here in Brantford.



I was up at 7:00 AM and took out the garbage, then drove to my office to do some paperwork, no snow down here, but like I said, the difference from one side of town to another is often surprising.


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> Seems like May 24 is the first time people think it's safe to go camping around here and they almost ALWAYS come back saying it sucked because it rained all frigging weekend and they were stuck in a cold tent. Sounds like fun...


May 24 is typically our first outdoor gig of the year. This year - who knows?


----------



## player99

mhammer said:


> Um, are you sure? I'm looking out my window, and just brought the garbage out to the curb, and its raining.
> 
> We raked up the leaves in the back yard yesterday. It's amazing how quickly winter disappears from one's thoughts, and how eagerly spring seems to seize things. The last traces of snow in the yard disappeared last week.. The yard is abundant with all sorts of birds. The pair of cardinals that I think is a regular nesting pair here have returned. The woodpeckers are out in droves, and the various nuthatches, wren, and even the odd warbler, are out. The local rabbit has decided that our oregano patch is a perfect spot to set up a hiding place. All the bulbs I planted have their shoots up, though more behind the house, where the light is better, than in front. At least one of the hyacinths has bloomed and another is threatening to pop any minute now. It's not the Victoria blossom count, but it gives hope, and will do nicely.
> 
> EDIT: The raindrops are now big goopy snowflakes. I guess we live at the other end of the city from Tomee, and it took a little while for the temp to drop the requisite few degrees here.


Before the edit your writing was beautiful.


----------



## allthumbs56

For the well-dressed medical professional:

/R E P E A T/ -- Canada Goose Delivers 14,000 Units of Medical Gear to Canadian Hospitals, Reopens Six More Facilities to Ramp up Production of PPE With the Help of 900 Employees

Kudos to Canada Goose. Wonder if they'll make goose down face masks?


----------



## mhammer

player99 said:


> Before the edit your writing was beautiful.


Thanks, Richard. And I felt that way, too. If it was December, I'd probably write a lot more romantically about the big snowflakes coming down at the moment. But I'll just quote Jesse Winchester here instead:

You know what they say about snowflakes.
How there ain't no two the same.
Well all of them snowflakes look alike to me.
Every one is a dirty shame.


----------



## Doug Gifford

allthumbs56 said:


> If you planned to go camping in Ontario this weekend, it snowed today - what were you thinking?


Went on a canoe trip in Algonquin park one Thanksgiving and it snowed. Damn near froze to death.


----------



## colchar

cdntac said:


> Did you see how much business was booming yesterday afternoon in Rama when the Rama band council decided to shut their cigarette stores down for a week?
> 
> The band council outside of North Bay did that earlier in the week and it was chaos.
> 
> My MiL buys smokes from there and after they closed on Tues my wife and I thought perhaps we’d drive to Rama on Wed to buy some for her just in case they closed.
> 
> We were there early, the entire area was quiet and we bought her probably at least 6 weeks worth of smokes.
> 
> Then we saw last night’s news where they decided to close all Rama smoke shops that day. It was complete chaos. Traffic was stopped from Hwy 12 at Atherly all the way past Casino Rama as hundreds and hundreds of people swarmed the area looking to buy smokes before 6 pm.



If the OPP were smart they would have stationed themselves on the roads leading out of the rez and busted everybody coming out with smokes. Great way to increase government revenues during an economic meltdown!


----------



## High/Deaf

mhammer said:


> One commentator I heard on CBC radio yesterday noted that what helped BC was that* the province's schools had March Break a week earlier than Ontario and Quebec.* According to the individual, this facilitated both testing and stay-at-home measures more in BC than in the other two provinces. Interesting hypothesis. I'm in no position to debate it.


I don't know how that would be a benefit. Our media is explaining Quebec's larger numbers because their March Break was a *week earlier* than ours, not the other way around. Logic being, people weren't into self-isolation as much in early March when Quebec kids were off. As March progressed, information was getting out and a week could make quite a difference to people's awareness and response, thus the lower numbers and less ramped-up trend out here. At least, that's what we're hearing.


----------



## Milkman

High/Deaf said:


> I don't know how that would be a benefit. Our media is explaining Quebec's larger numbers because their March Break was a *week earlier* than ours, not the other way around. Logic being, people weren't into self-isolation as much in early March when Quebec kids were off. As March progressed, information was getting out and a week could make quite a difference to people's awareness and response, thus the lower numbers and less ramped-up trend out here. At least, that's what we're hearing.


Anyone who travelled on March Break was either ignoring advice or just not paying attention.

My level of concern was high enough to start cancelling business travel back in early February.


----------



## mhammer

High/Deaf said:


> I don't know how that would be a benefit. Our media is explaining Quebec's larger numbers because their March Break was a *week earlier* than ours, not the other way around. Logic being, people weren't into self-isolation as much in early March when Quebec kids were off. As March progressed, information was getting out and a week could make quite a difference to people's awareness and response, thus the lower numbers and less ramped-up trend out here. At least, that's what we're hearing.


I'm just the messenger. Don't shoot! I might have misheard while I was working in the kitchen.


----------



## High/Deaf

Milkman said:


> Not everybody can make these changes as others here have explained, but I think there are also many who just don't trust internet banking, tap debit and other systems that can eliminate the need to visit banks.
> 
> Cash? Most people will say it's among the filthiest things you can touch, right up there with a hotel TV remote and public bathroom doorknobs.
> 
> For most purchases, my card and the product is all I touch.


I never used 'tap'. Without a password or number, I considered it less secure than running the card through the reader. 

I'm tapping now. I consider the hacking risk a lot less important than the health risk of touching a keypad that may have been touched by 500 other people in the last 72 hours. Priorities.


----------



## Milkman

High/Deaf said:


> I never used 'tap'. Without a password or number, I considered it less secure than running the card through the reader.
> 
> I'm tapping now. I consider the hacking risk a lot less important than the health risk of touching a keypad that may have been touched by 500 other people in the last 72 hours. Priorities.


I had similar concerns, but yes, 100% it's better to risk the security than your life.


----------



## High/Deaf

Milkman said:


> Anyone who travelled on March Break was either ignoring advice or just not paying attention.
> 
> My level of concern was high enough to start cancelling business travel back in early February.


I agree with you. I know people who *left* for a cruise in mid-March because they couldn't get a refund.

But maybe like me, you are a news junky and were ahead of this. So many people weren't / aren't and that explains how awareness increased between the 1st and 2nd weeks of March. Awareness out here was already starting in Feb as we had the first cases of this. It was real to us. I know other parts of the country were just hearing about it while it was already daily news for a couple of weeks out here.


----------



## High/Deaf

mhammer said:


> I'm just the messenger. Don't shoot! I might have misheard while I was working in the kitchen.


No shootin' required, Tex. I was just trying to find the logic in that line of thought. It probably was a misheard statement.


----------



## Milkman

High/Deaf said:


> I agree with you. I know people who *left* for a cruise in mid-March because they couldn't get a refund.
> 
> But maybe like me, you are a news junky and were ahead of this. So many people weren't / aren't and that explains how awareness between the 1st and 2nd weeks of March. Awareness out here was already starting in Feb as we had the first cases of this. It was real to us. I know other parts of the country were just hearing about it as while it was already daily news out here.


While I have no data and this is just my impression, I think a huge part of it was the general disregard for just how serious and deadly this virus really is. There's a certain mentality that blows this off as a conspiracy theory. Until a few weeks ago leaders of some nations were still making a show out of continuing to shake hands and other obvious no nos.

That's diminishing now but....


----------



## laristotle

bring Q-tips with you for the key pads.


----------



## Johnny Spune

Ship of fools said:


> Yep looks like BC has closed its doors to outside recreation and someone asked if home deaths are counted and the big answer is yes in BC a 47 year old health worker was a recent one, can't say for other provinces. And so far my store is still open for my CBD's ( helps with my muscle twitches ).
> Going to Costco this morning anyone need anything while I'm there. The other day ended up helping a sweet little old lady pay for her groceries she was shy about $40.00 bucks and started to cry so what can you do right. I just feel so blessed to be in a situation where I don't have to fret over money like so many others do.
> Can't wait for all of this to be over and have folks go back to normal noticed that a lot of drivers are becoming super aggressive on the road with so few drivers its kind of scary they cut you off no signals and give you the finger or worse start swearing and yelling.
> Heard that if Customs is not happy with your plan to isolate they will do it for you now great to hear and it looks like they may finally start to go after those who are NOT self isolating about time.


Good for you Ship. Great thing you did for that sweet old lady. A huge positive boost for her in these tough times. World needs more of that. Much respect to you sir.


----------



## mhammer

When I'm chopping vegetables with the sharpest knife in the house, with the radio on, I tend to give attentional priority to the knife, rather than the radio. I find it helps my guitar playing remain consistent over time. Besides, I was never _that_ huge a fan of either Tony Iommi or Jerry Garcia, that I wanted to copy them down to the last detail.


----------



## High/Deaf

Milkman said:


> While I have no data and this is just my impression, I think a huge part of it was the general disregard for just how serious and deadly this virus really is. There's a certain mentality that blows this off as a conspiracy theory. Until a few weeks ago leaders of some nations were still making a show out of continuing to shake hands and other obvious no nos.
> 
> That's diminishing now but....


...........there are still a few wildcats out there. Maybe it's for the attention (missing having a network TV show and all), maybe they really are 'guano psychotic', maybe they do wear tinfoil hats. I dunno.

Roseanne Barr: Coronavirus a conspiracy to ‘get rid of my generation’

(I hope this isn't seen as political. It was not intended to be.)


----------



## Dorian2

High/Deaf said:


> ...........there are still a few wildcats out there. Maybe it's for the attention (missing having a network TV show and all), maybe they really are 'guano psychotic', maybe they do wear tinfoil hats. I dunno.
> 
> Roseanne Barr: Coronavirus a conspiracy to ‘get rid of my generation’
> 
> (I hope this isn't seen as political. It was not intended to be.)


Her and her ilk fit more or less in the Psychiatric Anomaly grouping. So you're all good.


----------



## High/Deaf

Dorian2 said:


> Her and her ilk fit more or less in the Psychiatric Anomaly grouping. So you're all good.


I can always turn her off. Now, if she was singing in the park across the street, more 'active' remediation would probably be required. But I don't foresee that happening anytime soon.


----------



## keto

High/Deaf said:


> ...........there are still a few wildcats out there. Maybe it's for the attention (missing having a network TV show and all), maybe they really are 'guano psychotic', maybe they do wear tinfoil hats. I dunno.
> 
> Roseanne Barr: Coronavirus a conspiracy to ‘get rid of my generation’
> 
> (I hope this isn't seen as political. It was not intended to be.)


That session with Norm & Barr is so chopped up edited let me save you the time, it's not funny and not particularly crazy. Also, misrepresented in the story above.


----------



## mhammer

Ship of fools said:


> Yep looks like BC has closed its doors to outside recreation and someone asked if home deaths are counted and the big answer is yes in BC a 47 year old health worker was a recent one, can't say for other provinces. And so far my store is still open for my CBD's ( helps with my muscle twitches ).
> Going to Costco this morning anyone need anything while I'm there. The other day ended up helping a sweet little old lady pay for her groceries she was shy about $40.00 bucks and started to cry so what can you do right. I just feel so blessed to be in a situation where I don't have to fret over money like so many others do.
> Can't wait for all of this to be over and have folks go back to normal noticed that a lot of drivers are becoming super aggressive on the road with so few drivers its kind of scary they cut you off no signals and give you the finger or worse start swearing and yelling.
> Heard that if Customs is not happy with your plan to isolate they will do it for you now great to hear and it looks like they may finally start to go after those who are NOT self isolating about time.


Your place in heaven is assured, ship. I hope they moved you further back in the lineup, though, not further forward. Don't worry, your place is still reserved, no matter how much you dawdle and take your time in getting there.  Take your shoes off. Set a spell.


----------



## High/Deaf

Electraglide said:


> I have yet to see anything about how long it takes before you show symptoms. A day, two days, a week? They say that some people don't show symptoms. BTW what did the neighbours say as you stripped down?


I've been wondering this too. I just heard yesterday (or the day before, they're all running together now) from our PHO that nearly all cases present in 4 to 7 days after contact with the virus. Two weeks is adding a reasonable safety factor to that - and possibly why they didn't want to release the '4 -7 day' info until now.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> I might have misheard while I was working in the kitchen.


Awwwww Mark - you used to be a mover - a shaker! A contender! How the mighty have fallen


----------



## keto

I hope it's not considered political to post some good news about a politician. If I'm wrong, nuke from orbit.

Prime Minister Boris Johnson released from intensive care


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Awwwww Mark - you used to be a mover - a shaker! A contender! How the mighty have fallen


I could have had class!
I could have been a contender.
I could have been _somebody_.
Instead of a bum...
...which is what I am. Let's face it.


----------



## Milkman

keto said:


> I hope it's not considered political to post some good news about a politician. If I'm wrong, nuke from orbit.
> 
> Prime Minister Boris Johnson released from intensive care


I think (hope?) everybody wants to see Johnson recover, regardless of his politics.

Maybe he'll stop shaking hands with other leaders now.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> I could have had class!
> I could have been a contender.
> I could have been _somebody_.
> Instead of a bum...
> ...which is what I am. Let's face it.


I didn't say you were a bum - perish that thought. But I do have to ask, are you wearing an apron?


----------



## Milkman

got a problem wit dat.


----------



## mhammer

Is that a pic from Henry Rollins' cooking show?


----------



## Doug Gifford

Milkman said:


> I think (hope?) everybody wants to see Johnson recover, regardless of his politics.
> 
> Maybe he'll stop shaking hands with other leaders now.


Maybe he'll turn socialist like Doug Ford.


----------



## vadsy

Milkman said:


> got a problem wit dat.
> 
> View attachment 304402


made from vegan leather, comes with feathered man bun


----------



## knight_yyz

Not that anyone cares, but TD bank just sent me the notice saying I can defer my mortgage for a whole month!! Whoopee effing crap....


----------



## bolero

this could be promising:

UNC Researchers Find Oral Pill That Might Block COVID-19

*edit* aha I can see this thread now. forget it


----------



## allthumbs56

bolero said:


> this could be promising:
> 
> UNC Researchers Find Oral Pill That Might Block COVID-19
> 
> *edit* aha I can see this thread now. forget it


unfortunately everything seems to be "months away". We need something in the next week. Wouldn't it be great if chocolate, or potato chips were found to be a cure?


----------



## Dorian2

keto said:


> I hope it's not considered political to post some good news about a politician. If I'm wrong, nuke from orbit.
> 
> Prime Minister Boris Johnson released from intensive care


Yeah. I can't see an issue with posting an article "about" a politician if it isn't an opinion piece about the actual politics or something like that.


----------



## tdotrob

knight_yyz said:


> Not that anyone cares, but TD bank just sent me the notice saying I can defer my mortgage for a whole month!! Whoopee effing crap....


Don’t complain! You didn’t save enough!


----------



## laristotle

French bakery created chocolate bunnies with protective masks for COVID-19 Easter


----------



## davetcan

Milkman said:


> It did?
> 
> Nothin here.


Snowing here in London right now.


----------



## davetcan

keto said:


> I hope it's not considered political to post some good news about a politician. If I'm wrong, nuke from orbit.
> 
> Prime Minister Boris Johnson released from intensive care


I'm coming for you.


----------



## mhammer

bolero said:


> this could be promising:
> 
> UNC Researchers Find Oral Pill That Might Block COVID-19
> 
> *edit* aha I can see this thread now. forget it


No problem. It might be something, and it might be nothing. Just know that even if it _is_ something, it's one helluva long way from interesting test tube results with cultured lung cells, to a drug approved for humans with known dosage window** and the sorts of contra-indications you always see scrolling by the people living fabulous lives on those American drug ads. It takes a lot of money and time to find out about all those things you see listed and who should NOT take the drug. This UNC work could be _fantastic_ news for a year or two from now.

**"dosage window" is the range of dosages below which no measurable effect occurs, and above which the compound can produce harmful effects or even be lethal.


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> I could have had class!
> I could have been a contender.
> I could have been _somebody_.
> Instead of a bum...
> ...which is what I am. Let's face it.


Funny you don't sound like Brando.


----------



## laristotle

COVID-19: Insurers cut auto premiums — some by 75 per cent — as lockdown reduces claims

_The Insurance Bureau of Canada suggests customers contact their insurance company to see whether they qualify for relief_


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> unfortunately everything seems to be "months away". We need something in the next week. Wouldn't it be great if chocolate, or potato chips were found to be a cure?



Or beer.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> Or beer.


Put the two together








Or just add some coffee


----------



## Guitar101

laristotle said:


> COVID-19: Insurers cut auto premiums — some by 75 per cent — as lockdown reduces claims
> 
> _The Insurance Bureau of Canada suggests customers contact their insurance company to see whether they qualify for relief_


Just heard about this. I just sent my insurance company an email to see what Desjardins is doing.


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> Funny you don't sound like Brando.


You're my brother, Charlie. You're supposed to help me.


----------



## bolero

I have been using this dashboard to see virus status. the US is getting hammered, almost 500,000 cases now

Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases

if you scroll down to Canada, and click on "details" it gives you a province-by-province breakdown

Quebec is getting hit hard, hope our French brethren are ok


----------



## bolero

hmm this is strange, South Korea has a bunch of reactivated cases?

South Korea reports recovered coronavirus patients testing positive again | CBC News


----------



## GuitarsCanada

bolero said:


> hmm this is strange, South Korea has a bunch of reactivated cases?
> 
> South Korea reports recovered coronavirus patients testing positive again | CBC News



Uumm, that's not good


----------



## tomee2

bolero said:


> I have been using this dashboard to see virus status. the US is getting hammered, almost 500,000 cases now
> 
> Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases
> 
> if you scroll down to Canada, and click on "details" it gives you a province-by-province breakdown
> 
> Quebec is getting hit hard, hope our French brethren are ok


That is a much better page than the one I've been looking at. Thanks for posting that


----------



## Distortion

Columbia has 69 deaths. I guess that is why my Colombian neighbour bolted. Kids claim he can't get home ?


----------



## Ship of fools

Dang while you guys had snow I was walking around in a t-shirt was a cool 20 in the back yard. And had the top open on my Jeep with a nice cool breeze. Scott it seems that they are testing positive but many expected that to happen. I think someone mentioned that it was because of the anti-bodies left over floating through the blood stream.
And we are not going to get a break it seems on our insurance here in BC. Because every party has raided our ICBC for all of these years left us in a rut here with so many new bad drivers ( expensive cars ( $200,000.00 + and stupid 16 years old's driving them ) and not giving a shit if they crash them well a giant spike in claims and also judgement's have been extremely high do to lawyers and their specialists cost big bucks. So we are screwed on any reduction here.
Hope that all is well with everyone and that your families are doing well, take care and distance yourself from others.


----------



## keto

Interesting, how and why Alberta's medical supply chain is 'world class'

David Staples: Masterminds behind Alberta's medical supplies surge to meet COVID-19 crisis | Edmonton Journal


----------



## bolero

keto said:


> Interesting, how and why Alberta's medical supply chain is 'world class'
> 
> David Staples: Masterminds behind Alberta's medical supplies surge to meet COVID-19 crisis | Edmonton Journal


 well, it's good to see that *someone* has their shit together!!


----------



## guitarman2

Ship of fools said:


> Dang while you guys had snow I was walking around in a t-shirt was a cool 20 in the back yard.


I walk around in a t-shirt when there is snow.


----------



## Milkman

guitarman2 said:


> I walk around in a t-shirt when there is snow.


I suggest you add pants to that combo.

Just my opinion of course.


----------



## guitarman2

Milkman said:


> I suggest you add pants to that combo.
> 
> Just my opinion of course.


Strange. Thats what the neighbor said.


----------



## Dorian2

Sorry for the reality downer folks


----------



## keto

Dorian2 said:


> Sorry for the reality downer folks


Another site with a story about that said normal operations about 25/week buried there, currently around 100/week. Not vouching for the numbers, just what I saw.


----------



## Electraglide

Dorian2 said:


> Sorry for the reality downer folks


Seems like this is a Potters Field. Hard to say how many of those are victims of the virus or not. Gonna be a bitch when this is over and they get dug up and moved.


----------



## tomee2

keto said:


> Interesting, how and why Alberta's medical supply chain is 'world class'
> 
> David Staples: Masterminds behind Alberta's medical supplies surge to meet COVID-19 crisis | Edmonton Journal


Three things I got. A consolidation of separate health units under one team, and good people put in charge and being proactive in ordering supplies early. And, a direct contact with someone in China warning them this was real and it should be taken seriously. Good for them!


----------



## Dorian2

tomee2 said:


> Three things I got. A consolidation of separate health units under one team, and good people put in charge and being proactive in ordering supplies early. And, a direct contact with someone in China warning them this was real and it should be taken seriously. Good for them!


There's a 4th


----------



## boyscout

Double posting this in the "other" section too.

Great ad by the Ohio Department of Health about the need for and importance of social distancing.


----------



## Milkman

French police turn back private jet of holidaymakers from UK


----------



## cdntac

Milkman said:


> French police turn back private jet of holidaymakers from UK


A couple from Quebec tried the same thing a few weeks ago. They drove to the Yukon, flew to the northern part of the territory and the people there said “Get the fk out of here! and made them leave. Lol. 

Stupid, stupid people. 

I have to go into town today to check on my MiL. I’m curious as to how many cottagers will be here. They’re not wanted here (or any cottaging area) right now.


----------



## Jim DaddyO




----------



## Hamstrung

COVID-19 Daily Update — When Will the Lockdown End? – RheumInfo

This guy provides a very clear update of the situation as it relates to Canada. Updates every two days or so.


----------



## allthumbs56

Hamstrung said:


> COVID-19 Daily Update — When Will the Lockdown End? – RheumInfo
> 
> This guy provides a very clear update of the situation as it relates to Canada. Updates every two days or so.


I agree with him that given the lack of testing the number of deaths is the only number we can rely on to measure progress. It's unfortunate that that particular stat is being withheld and manipulated.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

More news on how the more we learn about it the more we learn that we don't really know.

S.Korea reports recovered coronavirus patients testing positive again


----------



## greco

Hamstrung said:


> COVID-19 Daily Update — When Will the Lockdown End? – RheumInfo
> 
> This guy provides a very clear update of the situation as it relates to Canada. Updates every two days or so.


Thanks! Very informative and well presented.


----------



## Electraglide

These countries are reopening after coronavirus -- here's how they're doing it


----------



## mhammer

Hamstrung said:


> COVID-19 Daily Update — When Will the Lockdown End? – RheumInfo
> 
> This guy provides a very clear update of the situation as it relates to Canada. Updates every two days or so.


Very good explanation and presentation. Two things stand out.
1) Measurement is paramount. Public policy has to be based on comprehensive measurement, and in many respects *about* measurement.
2) Patience is paramount. The progression of the disease has a way of tricking us. 
Patience and the strong measurement that lets us know where we stand will be our greatest allies.


----------



## boyscout

Food safety - information to consider during the pandemic.

COVID-19 food safety: Separating the myths from the facts


----------



## colchar

Milkman said:


> French police turn back private jet of holidaymakers from UK



So much for the grand plan of unrestricted movement in the EU!


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> So much for the grand plan of unrestricted movement in the EU!


Guess I'll just have to leave my private jet on the tarmac for a while longer


----------



## keto

boyscout said:


> Food safety - information to consider during the pandemic.
> 
> COVID-19 food safety: Separating the myths from the facts


I posted that in another food thread and got told multiple times, I'll paraphrase, crock of shit.


----------



## Electraglide

boyscout said:


> Food safety - information to consider during the pandemic.
> 
> COVID-19 food safety: Separating the myths from the facts


Reminds me that I have to go shopping. That will be at least 3 stores, maybe 4.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

boyscout said:


> Food safety - information to consider during the pandemic.
> 
> COVID-19 food safety: Separating the myths from the facts



A bit late news for me....last week I steam cleaned the ice cream we bought. That didn't turn out so well.....lol.


----------



## tomee2

cdntac said:


> A couple from Quebec tried the same thing a few weeks ago. They drove to the Yukon, flew to the northern part of the territory and the people there said “Get the fk out of here! and made them leave. Lol.
> 
> Stupid, stupid people.
> 
> I have to go into town today to check on my MiL. I’m curious as to how many cottagers will be here. They’re not wanted here (or any cottaging area) right now.


The story of the couple going to the Yukon was crazy. Must’ve cost them thousands to do, and they risked others with every airport they went through.

As for cottages... what about going straight there for a day or two then straight back? No shopping, gas or anything. If everyone did that it would be ok, but I’m guessing that lots of people won’t.


----------



## tomee2

Electraglide said:


> Reminds me that I have to go shopping. That will be at least 3 stores, maybe 4.


This morning I drove past lineups at Walmart, Loblaws, and a no frills. I walked right into a Shoppers. They have all the basic stuff, milk eggs, bread, ice cream, chips, pop....


----------



## Distortion

Anyone have a link to where the actual deaths are in Ontario. All I can come up with is a province wide number.


----------



## JBFairthorne

Personally, I have a bit of a problem with people being told not to go to their cottages. I understand the logic but to tell someone they can’t stay at their own property is ridiculous. I’m sure the community will happily collect the property taxes while they’re telling the owners not to come.


----------



## keto

JBFairthorne said:


> Personally, I have a bit of a problem with people being told not to go to their cottages. I understand the logic but to tell someone they can’t stay at their own property is ridiculous. I’m sure the community will happily collect the property taxes while they’re telling the owners not to come.


I think if you go supplied to the point where you can keep to yourselves, no shopping, pay at the pump for gas, there ain't a logical reason not to. ZOMG yer gonna cut off an arm and have to go to the local hospital and kill 98 other people just aint reality. The drive there and back, isn't going to be any higher risk than any other time.


----------



## Electraglide

tomee2 said:


> This morning I drove past lineups at Walmart, Loblaws, and a no frills. I walked right into a Shoppers. They have all the basic stuff, milk eggs, bread, ice cream, chips, pop....


No bulk foods, no fresh fruit and veggies, fish, beef or pork and not a lot of canned goods. And no coffee beans. I haven't shopped at No Frills for a while but I was by one on Thursday.....no line up, no line ups at the two grocery stores I usually shop at and none at the bulk food store. Not too sure if I'll hit Wallyworld today or not. Plus Shoppers prices are just a bit high and I have no problem standing in line.


----------



## player99

Electraglide said:


> No bulk foods, no fresh fruit and veggies, fish, beef or pork and not a lot of canned goods. And no coffee beans. I haven't shopped at No Frills for a while but I was by one on Thursday.....no line up, no line ups at the two grocery stores I usually shop at and none at the bulk food store. Not too sure if I'll hit Wallyworld today or not. Plus Shoppers prices are just a bit high and I have no problem standing in line.


IF you want the virus, go to Walmart. They are the worst.No cart cleaning, no 6.5' distance, and the staff and customers are not respecting any distancing protocols. I won't go back. No Frills is the best in my opinion, but I still had about 5 people ask if I wanted to pass by them or if they could pass by me in the isles.


----------



## player99

Anyone listen to CBC radio Quirks and Quarks? He talked to a specialist about the airborne capabilities of the virus. It looks like it can float on 1 micron particles and go airborne for long distances.


----------



## Electraglide

player99 said:


> IF you want the virus, go to Walmart. They are the worst.No cart cleaning, no 6.5' distance, and the staff and customers are not respecting any distancing protocols. I won't go back. No Frills is the best in my opinion, but I still had about 5 people ask if I wanted to pass by them or if they could pass by me in the isles.


You have this info about walmart from an informed source like your health board or a dr. or your provincial gov't? Haven't listened to Quirks and Quarks for years but what I've seen, a lot of it posted on here, seems to indicate that it might be airborn, maybe. Maybe not.


----------



## colchar

tomee2 said:


> This morning I drove past lineups at Walmart, Loblaws, and a no frills. I walked right into a Shoppers. They have all the basic stuff, milk eggs, bread, ice cream, chips, pop....



Most Shopper's around me have lineups. 

The secret for most stores is to go to the smaller, kind of out of the way plazas, that only those living locally go to.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

player99 said:


> IF you want the virus, go to Walmart.


Our nearest Walmart is doing pretty good at taking precautions. One way aisles and a marked line for check out keeping people well away from each other and the cashiers.


----------



## vadsy

we shop at Safeway, Costco, Superstore and occasionally Shoppers. haven't had to yet deal with a single lineup at Safeway or Shoppers, Superstore is a sometimes and Costco is always now just depends on how long it is


----------



## player99

Electraglide said:


> You have this info about walmart from an informed source like your health board or a dr. or your provincial gov't? Haven't listened to Quirks and Quarks for years but what I've seen, a lot of it posted on here, seems to indicate that it might be airborn, maybe. Maybe not.


Walmart is my own experience in Kanata and Renfrew. 

The expert on Q & Q showed it is airborne and so small it goes through all the masks. It will also drift through a whole house like the smell of baking cookies does. Here is a link to listen to the whole show. The virus was only a part of the show.
Apr 11: COVID-19 transmission, reliving Apollo 13 in real time and more... | CBC Radio


----------



## tomee2

Groceries really seem to be hit or miss for lineups. I waited 5 minutes at Costco last week, but everyone I know says the lineup is always bad. Our local Walmart is always lined up. I’m guessing that depending on each location it’ll vary. I only suggested Shoppers because our local one is one of the newer big ones, it’s like a mini grocery store with some fruits and veggies, canned food isle, bread, milk cheese ice-cream. I was pretty pleased to not have to stand outside with people waiting to go in.


----------



## player99

Costco sells pre bagged veggies which means I don't have to worry about all the shoppers handling them or drooling on them.


----------



## Dorian2

Most of my shopping at Superstore, Safeway, Sobey's etc has been good. The one exception was yesterday I was at Superstore and some woman parked her white fat ass directly in front of the meat section and spent 5 minutes directly in front of the beef pounding away on her cell phone for some reason. A couple of us just hung back until she fucked off after spreading her viral infected, more than likely feces smeared crud all over the packages she handled. Then I was lucky enough to be in the Dairy section where she pulled the same gambit in directly in front of the egg section door. Apart from that, most everyone was perfectly good. I continue to make sure not to touch my face, take note of any possible surface I touch and with which digit on my hands, punch the numbers on the pay machine with my pinky on my right hand, and wipe my hands and steering wheel with the 2 lysol wipes I carry in a plastic sandwich bag in my truck. Also wipe my kets, steering wheel, door handles in and out, gear shift, and radio everytime I'm in a public place. Takes about 30 seconds of extra work and a little proactive thinking is all. Apparently it's like rocket surgery to many though.


----------



## player99

So many people just don't care. They think it is a joke. The staff at most stores think the rules don't apply to them. The think they are like hockey referees and the lines and rules don't apply.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Good news.

What we have been doing is helping not overwhelm out ICU facilities. That doesn't mean the end is in sight, but it does mean that our medical system is holding up. This is no time to throw caution to the wind, or even ease up even a little, but let's count this as a small success.

“That is a surprise”: Doctors still waiting for feared surge of COVID-19 patients in Canadian ICUs


----------



## laristotle

_Physicians also stress it is crucial for people to abide by stay-at-home directives, which they suspect have suppressed the number of patients._


----------



## Electraglide

player99 said:


> Walmart is my own experience in Kanata and Renfrew.
> 
> The expert on Q & Q showed it is airborne and so small it goes through all the masks. It will also drift through a whole house like the smell of baking cookies does. Here is a link to listen to the whole show. The virus was only a part of the show.
> Apr 11: COVID-19 transmission, reliving Apollo 13 in real time and more... | CBC Radio


And other experts say that it's possible it could be airborne and maybe you could get the virus but if it drifts around your house like the smell of baking cookies that means it's probably in your house and because of the size there's nothing you can do so you're screwed.


----------



## Electraglide

player99 said:


> Costco sells pre bagged veggies which means I don't have to worry about all the shoppers handling them or drooling on them.


Must be a bitch to live in Ont.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Electraglide said:


> Must be a bitch to live in Ont.


It's a choice some people make.


----------



## Wardo

Or, as for Toronto, you just have no choice because business is/was here.


----------



## vadsy

Doug Gifford said:


> It's a choice some people make.


thats a good point. its better than having to stay where you are told, especially when you are a grown adult but you don't behave like one so you have to deal with the consequences


----------



## player99

I had to move to be able to land my private jet and 2 helicopters so I could get to my private villa.


----------



## Wardo

player99 said:


> I had to move to be able to land my private jet and 2 helicopters so I could get to my private villa.


Yeah, it's all about priorities. I got ride of the jet and I'm down to one helicopter; getting the pad built on the roof of my condo cost a shit ton and I had to pay off the city as well as introduce a few toronto council members to Jimmy Hoffa.


----------



## laristotle

pfft. hoomans.
teleportation's where it's at.


----------



## Doug Gifford

I've lived in Ontario all my life except for a bit under a year in the central Yukon. Lived in Toronto downtown and uptown and the Junction, the burbs of Ottawa, downtown Ottawa, Haliburton County, Brockville, Kingston, and here in Gananoque. I like it here a lot.


----------



## vadsy

It’s nice to have a choice of living wherever you want


----------



## colchar




----------



## Doug Gifford

vadsy said:


> It’s nice to have a choice of living wherever you want


We can do that because my wife's a teacher. And, thanks to Mike Harris of all people, she gets the same pay as someone teaching in downtown Toronto. So I got to stay at home and raise the kids and we could afford that. Like the 1960s or something.


----------



## jb welder

colchar said:


>


I would have bought that except it was being called 'Wuhan virus' for quite a while before some tried to _rebrand_ it 'Chinese virus' as a political manouver.
I have no beef with the original naming as 'Wuhan' as that was where it was originally discovered. A little surprised Bill would go along with this, he usually does better.


----------



## colchar

jb welder said:


> I would have bought that except it was being called 'Wuhan virus' for quite a while before some tried to _rebrand_ it 'Chinese virus' as a political manouver.
> I have no beef with the original naming as 'Wuhan' as that was where it was originally discovered. A little surprised Bill would go along with this, he usually does better.



Other things he mentioned didn't have to be narrowed down to a specific city (ie. MERS), so why does this?


----------



## SG-Rocker




----------



## cdntac

colchar said:


>


I saw this online yesterday morning. I thought Bill was spot on. 

I’m assuming it’s going viral (no pun intended) pretty quickly. 

I think WHO (or some other group who labels diseases) decided a few years ago to stop using geographical names for new diseases because they thought it would encourage cultural discrimination. 

No one feels sorry for all the poor pigs who get blamed for the Swine Flu.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Shockproofing Canada: Empty grocer shelves don’t signal food security issues, but there are challenges looming


----------



## allthumbs56

cdntac said:


> I saw this online yesterday morning. I thought Bill was spot on.
> 
> I’m assuming it’s going viral (no pun intended) pretty quickly.
> 
> I think WHO (or some other group who labels diseases) decided a few years ago to stop using geographical names for new diseases because they thought it would encourage cultural discrimination.
> 
> No one feels sorry for all the poor pigs who get blamed for the Swine Flu.


Not always a fan but this time he sure speaks the truth!


----------



## allthumbs56

Can someone explain this one to me?

Health Canada says rapid blood test for COVID-19 remains under review | CBC News

_"The company's chief financial officer, Mitchell Pittaway, said in an email to CBC News that Health Canada told the company rapid blood tests of the kind it's seeking to sell will remain under review until a "greater national strategy on their use is developed." _​
Knowing who has already had the virus or is immune sounds to me like an excellent way to get people back to work and get the country and our economy up and running. How can that possibly not been seen as our "*Greater National Strategy*"?


----------



## greco

COVID-19: How music and the arts have connected us - KitchenerToday.com


----------



## davetcan

No.



allthumbs56 said:


> Can someone explain this one to me?
> 
> Health Canada says rapid blood test for COVID-19 remains under review | CBC News
> 
> _"The company's chief financial officer, Mitchell Pittaway, said in an email to CBC News that Health Canada told the company rapid blood tests of the kind it's seeking to sell will remain under review until a "greater national strategy on their use is developed." _​
> Knowing who has already had the virus or is immune sounds to me like an excellent way to get people back to work and get the country and our economy up and running. How can that possibly not been seen as our "*Greater National Strategy*"?


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Can someone explain this one to me?
> 
> Health Canada says rapid blood test for COVID-19 remains under review | CBC News
> 
> _"The company's chief financial officer, Mitchell Pittaway, said in an email to CBC News that Health Canada told the company rapid blood tests of the kind it's seeking to sell will remain under review until a "greater national strategy on their use is developed." _​
> Knowing who has already had the virus or is immune sounds to me like an excellent way to get people back to work and get the country and our economy up and running. How can that possibly not been seen as our "*Greater National Strategy*"?


Guy shows up to your Steely Dan cover-band audition for a new guitarist, and says "Yeah, I can play ALL the solos, note for note". You ask him to pick a song and he does, and nails the solo. But will he nail them _every_ time for_ every_ song, or just the one he picks? That remains to be seen.

A company can have some appealing early data, but the % of false positives and false negatives has to be confirmed by independent testing, and not simply rely on what the manufacturer provides. My wife works in food safety at Health Canada, in the directorate that deals with food additives (which is something that is not an intrinsic ingredient or part of the recipe or formulation, but rather included in the product to colour, preserve, "texturize", or otherwise modify the formulation to its on-the-shelf state). They get submissions from companies that have done _some_ research, but simply aren't up to snuff when it comes to answering key questions about safety. One of the many reasons why she spends her days combing the research literature to read reports on things, and the reason why HC subscribes to pretty much every research-combing service out there. And these days, holding Zoom meetings among the multiple levels within the organization to assure that something meets this and that criterion, is harder and slower to do.

As wonderful as it would be to have a rapid blood test for antibodies to the virus, the risk entailed by even a modest percentage of false positives (i.e., the test indicates the person has developed a strong enough antibody presence to indicate they have an immunity, when actually they haven't) is too big a risk. Naturally, the decision of what is an _acceptable_ level of risk (since no test is perfect) will entail the joint decision making of multiple bodies/units, not just the say-so of one person. The Public Health Agency, Health Canada, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, and probably the former Industry Canada, will be involved, as would Public Services and Procurement Canada (because things would have to be sourced, bought and paid for) are involved...at the very least.

As I keep saying, the operational requirements/aspects are often not well-communicated or understood.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> Guy shows up to your Steely Dan cover-band audition for a new guitarist, and says "Yeah, I can play ALL the solos, note for note". You ask him to pick a song and he does, and nails the solo. But will he nail them _every_ time for_ every_ song, or just the one he picks? That remains to be seen.
> 
> A company can have some appealing early data, but the % of false positives and false negatives has to be confirmed by independent testing, and not simply rely on what the manufacturer provides. My wife works in food safety at Health Canada, in the directorate that deals with food additives (which is something that is not an intrinsic ingredient or part of the recipe or formulation, but rather included in the product to colour, preserve, "texturize", or otherwise modify the formulation to its on-the-shelf state). They get submissions from companies that have done _some_ research, but simply aren't up to snuff when it comes to answering key questions about safety. One of the many reasons why she spends her days combing the research literature to read reports on things, and the reason why HC subscribes to pretty much every research-combing service out there. And these days, holding Zoom meetings among the multiple levels within the organization to assure that something meets this and that criterion, is harder and slower to do.
> 
> As wonderful as it would be to have a rapid blood test for antibodies to the virus, the risk entailed by even a modest percentage of false positives (i.e., the test indicates the person has developed a strong enough antibody presence to indicate they have an immunity, when actually they haven't) is too big a risk. Naturally, the decision of what is an _acceptable_ level of risk (since no test is perfect) will entail the joint decision making of multiple bodies/units, not just the say-so of one person. The Public Health Agency, Health Canada, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, and probably the former Industry Canada, will be involved, as would Public Services and Procurement Canada (because things would have to be sourced, bought and paid for) are involved...at the very least.
> 
> As I keep saying, the operational requirements/aspects are often not well-communicated or understood.


Yet they are selling the kits to the States, the UK and mainland Europe. Similar tests are being done in South Korea other countries as well. You make a nicely-worded argument that I might even consider except for all the other countries making this part of their own strategies. I think we should be all over it - it's still better than waiting sealed up in our homes for something perfect.

These HAVE BEEN APPROVED in other countries.

Why Canada is taking so long to start testing blood for COVID-19 | CBC News


----------



## gtrguy

allthumbs56 said:


> These HAVE BEEN APPROVED in other countries.


Lots of countries do things differently than we do- decriminalized heroin, bovine growth hormone, capital punishment.... just because others are doing it we should too? I don’t buy that line of thinking. And the US is so fucked they are desperate, they’d buy just about anything that might help right now. Damn the consequences.


----------



## mhammer

I will note that standards can vary from country to country. There is stuff that is available in the US or the EU that doesn't meet Canadian standards. In some instances, the standards might be internationally agreed-upon, but the evaluation of the supporting research, as well as the research available at the _time_ of the evaluation, can result in different decisions about the application of the standards.

It starts to turn into "But Stacy's dad _said she_ could go on the ski trip! Why are you so mean?".


----------



## allthumbs56

gtrguy said:


> Lots of countries do things differently than we do- decriminalized heroin, bovine growth hormone, capital punishment.... just because others are doing it we should too? I don’t buy that line of thinking. And the US is so fucked they are desperate, they’d buy just about anything that might help right now. Damn the consequences.


This is not based on political ideals varying from country to country. We are all of us human, we are all affected in the same way regardless of country or social-political ideals. Circumstances kinda trump red tape to me.

Currently in Ontario we are testing 6,800 people per day. Using today's testing methods it will take 2,129 days to test the entire population of the province. Testing is paramount - we need to get out of the box and speed things up.


----------



## mhammer

Again, I emphasize that "evidence" does not take a holiday or stand still. It accumulates, and one has to assess what sorts of evidence should command our attention and be leaned on harder. What government X has to work with and assess at time 1 may not be what government Y has to work with at time 2. They do not make approval decisions for their own country on the basis of what "Stacy's dad" said, nor are previous decisions quickly reversed without investigating the evidence for ourselves. Admittedly, it is more sluggish than we'd like.

I was listening to "The Health Report" the other day (great show; Health Report ) and one of the experts spoken with recommended against use of more absorbent materials for face masks, since they would tend to pick up and hang onto aerosols and droplets more. That would work in both directions (i.e., what one spittles out and what others might spittle towards you). I had made myself a face covering from a fresh J-cloth last week, so I could go out to Loblaw's. I think I'll be either making a brand new mask (if I can find suitable material), or seriously washing that thing with antibacterial soap and ironing it dry.


----------



## keto

There are some very large numbers in this story. Glad we have it to give.

COVID-19: Alberta shipping protective gear to Ontario, Quebec and British Columbia | Edmonton Journal


----------



## gtrguy

allthumbs56 said:


> This is not based on political ideals varying from country to country. We are all of us human, we are all affected in the same way regardless of country or social-political ideals. Circumstances kinda trump red tape to me.
> 
> Currently in Ontario we are testing 6,800 people per day. Using today's testing methods it will take 2,129 days to test the entire population of the province. Testing is paramount - we need to get out of the box and speed things up.


And if half the "fast" tests give a false negative because not enough study has been done on their reliability? where does that get us? Up shit creek without a paddle my friend.

I want this over as much as everyone else but jumping the gun and potentially putting many more in danger is not the way to do it.


----------



## mhammer

Here's the link for the interview re: masks. Very informative.

Should we be wearing face masks?


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Shockproofing Canada: Empty grocer shelves don’t signal food security issues, but there are challenges looming



I was in a couple of stores yesterday and was surprised that the shelves were so bare. They certainly weren't like that earlier in the week. Maybe people were panic buying/hoarding for Easter weekend?


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> Can someone explain this one to me?
> 
> Health Canada says rapid blood test for COVID-19 remains under review | CBC News
> 
> _"The company's chief financial officer, Mitchell Pittaway, said in an email to CBC News that Health Canada told the company rapid blood tests of the kind it's seeking to sell will remain under review until a "greater national strategy on their use is developed." _​
> Knowing who has already had the virus or is immune sounds to me like an excellent way to get people back to work and get the country and our economy up and running. How can that possibly not been seen as our "*Greater National Strategy*"?



Yeah that is the one I posted about in the other thread. The UK is ordering millions of them and has an agreement with Amazon to distribute them. The US is also ordering millions. But the Canadian companies who are selling them worldwide are forbidden from selling them in Canada. Typical Canadian bureaucratic bullshit.


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> Guy shows up to your Steely Dan cover-band audition for a new guitarist, and says "Yeah, I can play ALL the solos, note for note". You ask him to pick a song and he does, and nails the solo. But will he nail them _every_ time for_ every_ song, or just the one he picks? That remains to be seen.
> 
> A company can have some appealing early data, but the % of false positives and false negatives has to be confirmed by independent testing, and not simply rely on what the manufacturer provides. My wife works in food safety at Health Canada, in the directorate that deals with food additives (which is something that is not an intrinsic ingredient or part of the recipe or formulation, but rather included in the product to colour, preserve, "texturize", or otherwise modify the formulation to its on-the-shelf state). They get submissions from companies that have done _some_ research, but simply aren't up to snuff when it comes to answering key questions about safety. One of the many reasons why she spends her days combing the research literature to read reports on things, and the reason why HC subscribes to pretty much every research-combing service out there. And these days, holding Zoom meetings among the multiple levels within the organization to assure that something meets this and that criterion, is harder and slower to do.
> 
> As wonderful as it would be to have a rapid blood test for antibodies to the virus, the risk entailed by even a modest percentage of false positives (i.e., the test indicates the person has developed a strong enough antibody presence to indicate they have an immunity, when actually they haven't) is too big a risk. Naturally, the decision of what is an _acceptable_ level of risk (since no test is perfect) will entail the joint decision making of multiple bodies/units, not just the say-so of one person. The Public Health Agency, Health Canada, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, and probably the former Industry Canada, will be involved, as would Public Services and Procurement Canada (because things would have to be sourced, bought and paid for) are involved...at the very least.
> 
> As I keep saying, the operational requirements/aspects are often not well-communicated or understood.



The UK is ordering millions of these. The US is ordering millions of these. Apparently they seem to think they are accurate.


----------



## colchar

gtrguy said:


> Lots of countries do things differently than we do- decriminalized heroin, bovine growth hormone, capital punishment.... just because others are doing it we should too? I don’t buy that line of thinking.


There is a big difference between things like growth hormones and capital punishment, and a simple blood test that is no more invasive than the tests diabetics give themselves daily.




> And the US is so fucked they are desperate, they’d buy just about anything that might help right now. Damn the consequences.


Britain and other European countries were buying them before the US was. Just because the US is doing it doesn't mean we shouldn't. 


When country after country approves these things maybe the only reason for us holding out is bureaucratic stupidity.

I cannot see any rational argument against these kits.


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> I was in a couple of stores yesterday and was surprised that the shelves were so bare. They certainly weren't like that earlier in the week. Maybe people were panic buying/hoarding for Easter weekend?


Remember that the shelves only get filled because there were truckers to bring the stuff, and staff to stock the shelves. Both of those can be weak links.


----------



## colchar

gtrguy said:


> And if half the "fast" tests give a false negative because not enough study has been done on their reliability? where does that get us? Up shit creek without a paddle my friend.
> 
> I want this over as much as everyone else but jumping the gun and potentially putting many more in danger is not the way to do it.



Um, you do realize that these kits have been evaluated in China, South Korea, the UK, Europe, etc. right?


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> The UK is ordering millions of these. The US is ordering millions of these. Apparently they seem to think they are accurate.


Actually, they are probably more desperate, and Canada is probably waiting for data from those countries before making a decision. The USA's death rate is currently 65 per million residents, and the UK's is 156. Canada's is presently 18. We're not "safe" but we have more leeway in waiting on data from other nations. We obviously shouldn't dawdle, but we'll have a richer dataset to work with for making decisions.

Incidentally, are all these kits coming from a single supplier or from multiple suppliers? Does anyone know?


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> I was in a couple of stores yesterday and was surprised that the shelves were so bare. They certainly weren't like that earlier in the week. Maybe people were panic buying/hoarding for Easter weekend?


The one store I went too yesterday was out of milk but that's about it.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> There is a big difference between things like growth hormones and capital punishment, and a simple blood test that is no more invasive than the tests diabetics give themselves daily.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Britain and other European countries were buying them before the US was. Just because the US is doing it doesn't mean we shouldn't.
> 
> 
> When country after country approves these things maybe the only reason for us holding out is bureaucratic stupidity.
> 
> I cannot see any rational argument against these kits.


Isn't there a sister company to the Canadian company in the UK making and selling millions of these things?


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> Actually, they are probably more desperate, and Canada is probably waiting for data from those countries before making a decision. The USA's death rate is currently 65 per million residents, and the UK's is 156. Canada's is presently 18. We're not "safe" but we have more leeway in waiting on data from other nations. We obviously shouldn't dawdle, but we'll have a richer dataset to work with for making decisions.
> 
> Incidentally, are all these kits coming from a single supplier or from multiple suppliers? Does anyone know?


Seems a lot sold in the states is from a single company.....the Canadian one that is trying to get Canadian approval. At least 200,000 ma week.


----------



## Ship of fools

UK Covid-19 antibody tests not ready until May at earliest
FDA officially authorizes its first serological antibody blood test for COVID-19
Maybe one needs to read how they say that they are not the be all end all.
Mark they are from all over so me I would rather stay on the cautious side of things as I have heard that there are many false positives and false negatives. And it would lead to some folks still being carriers and spreading it to others who may have a false reading. Can you imagine how all those here who are saying now that let them test and what would happen if they did and it went out of control. Then they would start bitching about that right away.
Medicine is not a perfect science but it does the best it can.


----------



## colchar

Electraglide said:


> Isn't there a sister company to the Canadian company in the UK making and selling millions of these things?



So far as I know they aren't made here, they are made in China. The Canadian companies are just importing and selling them.

The full story should be available on the CBC website as it was on this week's episode of _Marketplace_.


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> Actually, they are probably more desperate, and Canada is probably waiting for data from those countries before making a decision. The USA's death rate is currently 65 per million residents, and the UK's is 156. Canada's is presently 18. We're not "safe" but we have more leeway in waiting on data from other nations. We obviously shouldn't dawdle, but we'll have a richer dataset to work with for making decisions.



Waiting worked so well thus far, what could possibly be the harm in waiting some more eh?


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> Waiting worked so well thus far, what could possibly be the harm in waiting some more eh?


People are gonna stay in their houses for another week or three and then they're gonna say "fugg it". Maggs and I just got back from a drive and saw kids playing basketball and people walking pretty close to each other on pathways. People have been patient waiting for the slowdown. So far Canada has tested 401,000 people - 1% of the population.

People aren't that patient. We need to allow for that.


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> Waiting worked so well thus far, what could possibly be the harm in waiting some more eh?


There are many people tasked with assessing what the harm to public health could be moving _too quickly_. When it comes to your health who do you want to place your confidence in: the cautious or the impatient? The cautious certainly do not wait because they "don't feel like getting around to it", or because they wish to be obstinate for the sake of being obstinate. Is their judgment perfect? No. And you don't have to agree with it either. But it is informed, and directed by, the public interest. Not really much different than our mothers making our lives a living hell by insisting that we put on a sweater when we go out during the winter. We question their judgment, but they're not doing it to piss us off or be spiteful.

Just listened to one of Al Franken's recent podcasts. This one was an interview with the former Chief Public Health officer for Baltimore, who had the unsavoury task of reporting to a mayor who was eventually convicted on unsavoury charges and is now serving 3yrs for it. The discussion revolves around the role that both Birx and Fauci have at the moment, and the tightrope they have to walk in being informative, authoritative and truthful, on the one hand, and maintaining rapport with the POTUS, on the other hand, so they can serve that role and stay on the tightrope. Some very interesting meat to chew on for an ethics class, there.

Apologies for drifting off the "disease-only" track.


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> There are many people tasked with assessing what the harm to public health could be moving _too quickly_. When it comes to your health who do you want to place your confidence in: the cautious or the impatient?



When several other western democracies have deemed them fit to use, we shouldn't continue being 'patient'. As I said, look how well waiting has worked for us thus far. In fact, we're in this mess because the Liberals and the health authorities waited. Taiwan didn't wait, and they are not in the same mess we are.


----------



## Budda

When did rushing something ever help?


----------



## Distortion

well York region is the hot spot in Ontario. If you are out walking around.York Region is the coronavirus hot spot in Ontario, health officials say


----------



## davetcan

Well if I'm laying in a hospital bed dying and there's a potential cure out there that has not been approved by the government I'd be up for taking it. If you'd rather just lay there and die in the name of caution you have that right.



mhammer said:


> There are many people tasked with assessing what the harm to public health could be moving _too quickly_. When it comes to your health who do you want to place your confidence in: the cautious or the impatient? The cautious certainly do not wait because they "don't feel like getting around to it", or because they wish to be obstinate for the sake of being obstinate.


----------



## Doug Gifford

davetcan said:


> Well if I'm laying in a hospital bed dying and there's a potential cure out there that has not been approved by the government I'd be up for taking it. If you'd rather just lay there and die in the name of caution you have that right.


And there are people who will get very rich feeding the human drive to stay alive. Always have been.


----------



## mhammer

davetcan said:


> Well if I'm laying in a hospital bed dying and there's a potential cure out there that has not been approved by the government I'd be up for taking it. If you'd rather just lay there and die in the name of caution you have that right.


When it's a case-by-case basis, that's one thing. My own father was battling meningitis, pleurisy, and pneumonia concurrently. The doctors at the Royal Victoria said he was a write-off and asked my grandfather if they could have his permission to use a new experimental drug on him, called penicillin. My grandfather was pretty much consigned to losing his son, but said "If it might save other lives, you have my permission". Lucky for me that it worked. I guess it ended up saving _my_ life too, long before it was approved.

When it comes to blocks-long lineups being the source of data for making public policy decisions, though, I think that's a little different. It goes beyond MY decision for MY health, if the rate of false positives or false negatives is high, and results in individuals re-entering the workforce while still contagious. I can request an obscure treatment for ME, but the presence of a contagious employee handing me change at Food Basics or serving me at Tim Horton's is not my choice.


----------



## davetcan

Well if you don't test them at all you'll never know. If you test them with something that "might" not be accurate you still won't know, but then again you might  



mhammer said:


> When it comes to blocks-long lineups being the source of data for making public policy decisions, though, I think that's a little different. It goes beyond MY decision for MY health, if the rate of false positives or false negatives is high, and results in individuals re-entering the workforce while still contagious. I can request an obscure treatment for ME, but the presence of a contagious employee handing me change at Food Basics or serving me at Tim Horton's is not my choice.


----------



## davetcan

Doug Gifford said:


> And there are people who will get very rich feeding the human drive to stay alive. Always have been.


More power to them as long as it's not a scam


----------



## vadsy

the people bitching here on ‘why isn’t it available yet, we don’t need approval’ are the same people that would bitch if it was being used immediately without the proper approval .


----------



## Electraglide

Doug Gifford said:


> And there are people who will get very rich feeding the human drive to stay alive. Always have been.


Someone gets rich or someone dies. Your choice.


----------



## mhammer

davetcan said:


> Well if you don't test them at all you'll never know. If you test them with something that "might" not be accurate you still won't know, but then again you might


There are two sorts of testing here. One is testing to identify current cases of infected persons in order to know how widespread the virus is, and for triaging treatment. The other is a rapid antibody test to identify people who have_* had *_it and developed antibodies is their successful recovery. Throat swabs taken to grow viral cultures for positive diagnosis is labour intensive, hence costly and prone to backlogs. Assaying blood for specific antibodies requires no culturing. I believe the tests in question are of the second variety not the first. The first type does indeed help one identify "hotspots". The second type is for putting people back out into the workforce, whom we _assume_ (that thing that makes an ass out of u and me) can neither get reinfected or infect others. The jury on that has mostly filed back into the courtroom, but a few jurors are still out.


----------



## Electraglide

davetcan said:


> Well if you don't test them at all you'll never know. If you test them with something that "might" not be accurate you still won't know, but then again you might


And how, in the final analysis ,do you know if something works or doesn't work on humans unless you test it on humans? And if it comes back "not positive" then give them another test in a little while.


----------



## player99

Electraglide said:


> The one store I went too yesterday was out of milk but that's about it.


On the news last week farmers are dumping millions of gallons and now stores are out of milk. WTF is wrong with the human species? Could the supply be over demand and lower the price? Could the excess be given to the poor and the hungry?


----------



## mhammer

player99 said:


> One news last week farmers are dumping millions of gallons and now stores are out of milk. WTF is wrong with the human species? Could the supply not be over demand and lower the price? Could the excess be given the the poor and the hungry?


The U.S. does not have supply management, so they frequently end up with huge surpluses. That's what gets converted into the "government cheese" that Chris Farley used to incorporate into his motivational speaker bit. It's a real thing, distributed to folks on welfare.

It would be great if farmers could tell their cows to ease up a bit on the milk production but biology doesn't work that way. In many instances, dairy farmers will let some of their cows dry up, requiring re-impregnating them once this all blows over (remember, they don't lactate unless they've recently given birth, and keep getting milked once that has started). There might conceivably be milk _shortages_ at that time as those cows get started up again.

Supply management was never based around the current circumstances. In normal times, it works, but these ain't normal times. And if WE have to ask our dairy farmers to dump milk, one can only imagine what's happening with dairy farmers stateside, whose output is not calibrated to demand. Kroeger is probably paying customers to take yogurt off their hands, lest it go bad in the cooler section.


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## Doug Gifford

Electraglide said:


> Someone gets rich or someone dies. Your choice.


Or someone gets rich and someone dies anyway because the "cure" was misdirected or bogus. And the there's side effects like thalidomide had.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

player99 said:


> On the news last week farmers are dumping millions of gallons and now stores are out of milk. WTF is wrong with the human species? Could the supply be over demand and lower the price? Could the excess be given to the poor and the hungry?


The suppy chain for retail is just fine. Humming along pretty much as normal (although not completely). What has thrown a wrench in the works is the market disappearance for restaurant supply market. People aren't going out, they are staying at home (and cooking/baking). Thus demand for retail (grocery) has gone up, demand for commercial (restaurant) has disappeared. They can't adjust to that change as quick as we would like (or they would like either).

Thus, all the stuff they can't process, because there is no restaurant market, gets dumped. Farmers are taking it in turn so the pain is spread to all evenly. I put a post up somewhere about not being alarmed about food supply.

Edit: Found the link again...it was on pg 16 of this thread.

Shockproofing Canada: Empty grocer shelves don’t signal food security issues, but there are challenges looming

_Food producers, processors and retailers use historic buying data to forecast future demand, then make and buy enough product to meet that expected demand. _
_
People are shopping for more groceries rather than dining out. They’re stocking up on staples and filling freezers. And it took food processing plants and distribution centres a few weeks to catch up with that change in demand, hence the empty shelves.

There is an entire supply chain set up to service restaurants, and redirecting all that food to grocery stores isn’t as simple as it sounds.

“All that milk that was being sold to Starbucks is no longer being sold to Starbucks,” Fraser said. “So the dairy industry is going, ‘Oh man, what are we going to do? We’re going to have to dump all this milk and figure out how to sell all this extra milk into other parts of the food chain.’”

Milk dumping has been happening in the United States as well. The only difference in Canada is that it has supply management, the controversial system of controlling the output of eggs, dairy and poultry to keep a steady supply on the market and insulate the sector from price swings.

The milk dumping started this month as demand suddenly shifted following the mass closure of restaurants and schools. But von Massow, the University of Guelph food economist, said it isn’t because people are consuming less dairy. They’re just consuming it differently.

We eat more cheese in restaurants than at home, he said. And we drink more milk at home than in restaurants. It will take time to adapt to those shifts in consumer buying, to line up new packaging, gear up some production lines and gear down others.

“Gearing down is much quicker than gearing up,” von Massow said. “In the interim, we have excess milk.”

Some provincial dairy boards, including those in Ontario and British Columbia, said they were ordering farmers to dump milk on a rotating basis this week, thereby spreading the burden around the entire industry.
_


----------



## Electraglide

player99 said:


> One news last week farmers are dumping millions of gallons and now stores are out of milk. WTF is wrong with the human species? Could the supply not be over demand and lower the price? Could the excess be given the the poor and the hungry?


It was the only store I went too yesterday that was out of 4 liter white cows milk. They did have some 1 liter and smaller white and chocolate cows milk and lots of soy, almond etc. milk. A certain amount of the excess is donated to food banks and such but I think this is a case the supply exceeds the demand and there is not much that can be done about that. Not too sure how much milk gets dumped or used for animal feed in a normal year but I know that you just can't stop milking the cows. If you do that and you're lucky all your cow will do is dry up which is better than blowing up.


----------



## Dorian2

A little light reading for those who care to make a decision on the health of the entire nation. Conclude away. 



> Tests turning up negative even when all signs point to COVID-19 has been a common experience in American hospitals over the past month, public health experts have told ProPublica. It’s unclear what proportion of these negative results are inaccurate — known as “false negatives” — and whether that’s due to some external factor, like bad sample collection, or because of an issue inherent in the tests’ design.
> 
> Neither the major test manufacturers, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration or the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention would say how common false negatives are. While the FDA requires test-makers to report any known instances of false negatives as a condition of granting them provisional approval, known as emergency use authorizations, no such reports are visible in a database the agency maintains for that purpose.


Coronavirus Tests Are Being Fast-Tracked by the FDA, but… — ProPublica



> With almost no FDA oversight of the tests, “Right now it’s a wild west show out there," said Eric Blank of the Association for Public Health Laboratories. “It really has created a mess that’s going to take a while to clean up."


Fears of 'Wild West' as COVID-19 blood tests hit the market



> Both PeopleG2 and ToxTest are selling packages of 25 antibody tests for between $625 and $650, or roughly $25 per test. Both tests use a finger-prick blood sample and yield results in less than 15 minutes, and neither have FDA approval. The only antibody test the FDA has approved under an emergency use authorization is a test from Cellex Inc.


COVID-19 antibody tests are here. But can you trust them?


----------



## Electraglide

Doug Gifford said:


> Or someone gets rich and someone dies anyway because the "cure" was misdirected or bogus. And the there's side effects like thalidomide had.


And people are allergic to penicillin. We found out the hard way that my son is allergic. And penicillin was supposed to be the end all/cure all for almost everything. What we're talking about here is a blood test that from what I understand says if you've had/have the virus or not and possibly if you're immune to it. I don't think that that's in the same ballpark as thalidomide.


----------



## allthumbs56

Personally I think we should be testing the shit out of this thing - every which way possible. I hope that those that disagree with me are right. Let's check back in on it in a couple weeks. Stay safe.


----------



## davetcan

People are complaining about the length of time approval takes, I would hope we all agree some approval is necessary. If the health services of both the USA and the UK have approved it perhaps our approval could start with a simple phone call asking on what grounds they were approved? Or are we waiting for approval from the WHO?



vadsy said:


> the people bitching here on ‘why isn’t it available yet, we don’t need approval’ are the same people that would bitch if it was being used immediately without the proper approval .


----------



## davetcan

If by "testing the shit out of this thing" you mean the blood test kit then I sure hope we're already doing that .

And if we're waiting for FDA approval ...

Drugs, Devices, and the FDA: Part 1: An Overview of Approval Processes for Drugs - ScienceDirect

_"New drug and device approval in the United States take an average of 12 and 7 years, respectively, from pre-clinical testing to approval. Costs for development of medical devices run into millions of dollars, and a recent study suggests that the entire cost for a new drug is in excess of $1 billion."_


----------



## boyscout

allthumbs56 said:


> Can someone explain this one to me?
> 
> Health Canada says rapid blood test for COVID-19 remains under review | CBC News
> 
> _"The company's chief financial officer, Mitchell Pittaway, said in an email to CBC News that Health Canada told the company rapid blood tests of the kind it's seeking to sell will remain under review until a "greater national strategy on their use is developed." _​
> Knowing who has already had the virus or is immune sounds to me like an excellent way to get people back to work and get the country and our economy up and running. How can that possibly not been seen as our "*Greater National Strategy*"?





mhammer said:


> And these days, holding Zoom meetings *among the multiple levels within the organization to assure that something meets this and that criterion*, is harder and slower to do.


And there it is, blithely offered by way of assurance that bureaucrats are looking after us by doing things pretty much as they always do, just even slower due to the inconvenience of not being able to enjoin participation in countless face-to-face meetings up and down the multiple levels of the organization.

Chances are very good that the applications of companies already manufacturing and selling antibody blood tests to other countries are being handled by Health Canada in the same way, much as they would have been three months ago. That's despite the fact that we have agreements with the MHRA in the U.K. and with the FDA in the U.S. - which have both approved use of the tests - agreements saying that we will more-readily approve regulated products here if they have been approved there, and vice versa. Eminently sensible!

However with all the attention on Covid-19, there's almost NO doubt that "multiple levels" of risk-averse Canadian bureaucrat group-thinkers are proceeding with the utmost caution, rather than utmost reasonable speed, to consider these products and approve them for use here. They could quickly review approval work done by MHRA and FDA, require stern labeling warning about the way the tests should be administered and interpreted and patients cautioned, maybe even require reporting on use, and let our health care professionals (repeat, world-leading trained medical professionals) begin using these products to gather more badly-needed intelligence about this virus.

Nope.



mhammer said:


> As wonderful as it would be to have a rapid blood test for antibodies to the virus, the risk entailed by even a modest percentage of false positives (i.e., the test indicates the person has developed a strong enough antibody presence to indicate they have an immunity, when actually they haven't) is too big a risk. Naturally, the decision of what is an _acceptable_ level of risk (since no test is perfect) will entail the joint decision making of multiple bodies/units, not just the say-so of one person. The Public Health Agency, Health Canada, Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness, and probably the former Industry Canada, will be involved, as would Public Services and Procurement Canada (because things would have to be sourced, bought and paid for) are involved...at the very least.


And there's the rest of it, amply confirming my previous paragraphs. All those different agencies that have to be consulted and engaged, get their bureaucrats up to speed, all that process that must be followed, blah, blah, blah. 

People who think like this even in the face of a medical crisis that's killing at least tens of Canadians EVERY SINGLE DAY dominate our governments. They rise to the very top of it, as did the incompetent and political Dr. Theresa Tam, the Chief Public Health Officer of Canada who has been in charge of our response to the pandemic since even before there WAS a pandemic (she used to be the top bureaucrat responsible for preparing our country for a crisis just like the one we're in now; were we prepared in ANY way?!)

So, @allthumbs56 it seems that @mhammer DID answer your question, just not as thoroughly or directly as it deserved to be answered.


----------



## Electraglide

Seems, that for various reasons, the test that is being used now gives false readings, positive and negative. That's the swab test. Nothing says what percentage but is there anything that says what the percentage of readings is on the blood tests.


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> And people are allergic to penicillin. We found out the hard way that my son is allergic. And penicillin was supposed to be the end all/cure all for almost everything. What we're talking about here is a blood test that from what I understand says if you've had/have the virus or not and possibly if you're immune to it. I don't think that that's in the same ballpark as thalidomide.


As much as I exist because my dad was saved by penicillin, I am allergic to it.


allthumbs56 said:


> Personally I think we should be testing the shit out of this thing - every which way possible. I hope that those that disagree with me are right. Let's check back in on it in a couple weeks. Stay safe.


I concur. Though the antibody tests will be handy, I would prioritize the throat swabs because they provide information about what is _going_ to happen, whereas the antibody tests tell you about what_ has_ happened.


Dorian2 said:


> A little light reading for those who care to make a decision on the health of the entire nation. Conclude away.
> 
> Coronavirus Tests Are Being Fast-Tracked by the FDA, but… — ProPublica
> 
> Fears of 'Wild West' as COVID-19 blood tests hit the market
> 
> COVID-19 antibody tests are here. But can you trust them?


There is always the risk of someone trying to exploit, but these are not the sort of fly-by-night operations. This isn't _The Music Man_: Covid-19 edition. That said, many people can let their enthusiasm and/or desperation run away with them, seeing more promise in their product or something than might really be there, especially when they have invested heavily in it. And remember that the traditional trajectory of new tests or drugs is that we see some modest encouraging evidence of benefit first, and _then_ subsequent research reveals problems and caveats. There wasn't a single lab anywhere in the world, prior to February that had spent a minute on a Covid-19 antibody test. I am constantly amazed by the speed of scientific developments, but the idea of development of an antibody test from an absolute cold start in a matter of a few months, that is absolutely foolproof, stretches the bounds of credibility. I'm sure it's _pretty_ good. The question is whether "pretty good" is worth depending on at the moment, or whether we want to see "if Mikey likes it" first before trying it ourselves.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

What ever they come up with for testing, you will be betting your life on it.....or someone you likely know. Not to mention the long term health of the economy. Successive waves of this will cripple that for a long time.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> I concur. Though the antibody tests will be handy, I would prioritize the throat swabs because they provide information about what is _going_ to happen, whereas the antibody tests tell you about what_ has_ happened.


Testing "Whats going to happen" is occurring at a paltry rate of 6,800 people per day - out of 14.5 million people - over 4 years to test the population. By the time we know "what's going to happen" it will be way, way back in the rear-view mirror. "What has happened" tells us how many of us can get back to business - now. A 15 minute test, false positives and negatives be damned. We could have this province tested in a week or so and could start making some intelligent decisions.

The math is right there.


----------



## mhammer

boyscout said:


> And there it is, blithely offered by way of assurance that bureaucrats are looking after us by doing things pretty much as they always do, just even slower due to the inconvenience of not being able to enjoin participation in countless face-to-face meetings up and down the multiple levels of the organization.
> 
> Chances are very good that the applications of companies already manufacturing and selling antibody blood tests to other countries are being handled by Health Canada in the same way, much as they would have been three months ago. That's despite the fact that we have agreements with the MHRA in the U.K. and with the FDA in the U.S. - which have both approved use of the tests - agreements saying that we will more-readily approve regulated products here if they have been approved there, and vice versa. Eminently sensible!
> 
> However with all the attention on Covid-19, there's almost NO doubt that "multiple levels" of risk-averse Canadian bureaucrat group-thinkers are proceeding with the utmost caution, rather than utmost reasonable speed, to consider these products and approve them for use here. They could quickly review approval work done by MHRA and FDA, require stern labeling warning about the way the tests should be administered and interpreted and patients cautioned, maybe even require reporting on use, and let our health care professionals (repeat, world-leading trained medical professionals) begin using these products to gather more badly-needed intelligence about this virus.
> 
> Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> And there's the rest of it, amply confirming my previous paragraphs. All those different agencies that have to be consulted and engaged, get their bureaucrats up to speed, all that process that must be followed, blah, blah, blah.
> 
> People who think like this even in the face of a medical crisis that's killing at least tens of Canadians EVERY SINGLE DAY dominate our governments. They rise to the very top of it, as did the incompetent and political Dr. Theresa Tam, the Chief Public Health Officer of Canada who has been in charge of our response to the pandemic since even before there WAS a pandemic (she used to be the top bureaucrat responsible for preparing our country for a crisis just like the one we're in now; were we prepared in ANY way?!)
> 
> So, @allthumbs56 it seems that @mhammer DID answer your question, just not as thoroughly or directly as it deserved to be answered.


Health Canada regulates what is sold _within_ this country. It does not regulate what is sold to other countries. That is, after all, why Maxime Bernier could shill on behalf of the federal government for crysotile asbestos sales to India and other places, while buildings were being ripped apart *here* to get rid of the damn stuff. The U.S. government wants the tests, and the companies that sunk money into their development want to recoup their costs. The Feds here have no laws or regulations that would _prohibit_ the sale to the American market, even if it isn't up to Canadian standards. I wouldn't go so far as to call it "dumping", though.

Why do all those agencies have to be consulted? Because if we KNEW this was going to happen years ago, we would have designed a federal government to anticipate it and task ONE eff-ing department to handle it, you fool. Every year, departments get sliced and diced, and responsibilities partialled out, as folks cogitate over how some issues could be better handled if these folks here worked alongside those folks there. PHAC didn't exist until SARS. There were some folks at Health Canada that dealt with such matters, and National Defence used to have a center for emergency preparedness that was bundled up with the Solicitor General's office, and the crime-prevention directorate at Justice Canada, in 2003 to become Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. But the idea of a separate agency that ONLY deals with matters of overall public health challenges, and public health promotion, wasn't on *anyone's* radar until SARS. Similarly, the Canadian Food Inspection Agency (which really ought to be renamed the Bioinspection Agency because they deal with and regulate a lot that isn't food, like pests that threaten the forestry industry) is a recent invention, whose function would have likely required the joint participation of Health Canada, Agriculture, Industry, Natural Resources, and more to arrive at decisions, prior to its creation. PHAC deals with the planning and overall response to public health challenges. They do not have any branch which is tasked with assuring the safety of products, whether they be drugs, surgical implants, food, or medical tests. That assessment expertise resides at HC. But they do not license. The diplomatic relations with other countries that gets us trade agreements as well as information from them that is relevant to the management of public health, will come through other departmental channels. It's not one guy who drives the car, gases it up, checks the map and decides how we're all going to get from A to B.

If you have the gift of prophecy to be able lay out a flawless organizational structure that will be valid for all time, be my guest. I don't _*like*_ the fact that the participation of multiple departments and advisory bodies have to be involved. But I understand why it all happens, and sometimes it happens for eminently sensible reasons.

It _might_ be a mistake to wait on antibody tests. And it might not. We don't know either way right now. The UK and US _might_ be wasting their money and breath on this first wave of commercial rapid tests. And they might not. We don't know, and neither do they.


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Testing "Whats going to happen" is occurring at a paltry rate of 6,800 people per day - out of 14.5 million people - over 4 years to test the population. By the time we know "what's going to happen" it will be way, way back in the rear-view mirror. "What has happened" tells us how many of us can get back to business - now. A 15 minute test, false positives and negatives be damned. We could have this province tested in a week or so and could start making some intelligent decisions.
> 
> The math is right there.


False positives and negatives be damned? Are you serious, man? What percentage of people who ARE infected and shedding virus, but show up on a faulty antibody test as OK would you be willing to risk introducing back into the workplace? Keep in mind that the tens of thousands that are confirmed cases in Canada did not all come back on an Air Canada flight from Wuhan or Florence. They got it from someone else who may not have even known they were carrying it, who may have gotten it from someone else. So what percentage of misses do you think is perfectly acceptable?

Should testing capacity be ramped up? You better eff-ing believe it. But it's easier said than done. It's very labour intensive, which is why political attention has been shifted to antibody testing, which may be less helpful but is cheaper and faster. As for "knowing what's going to happen", I mean that we can know that this or that neighbourhood/town is a hotspot and needs special attention. It means that we'll know person X is infected and should not only stay at home, but should stay the F away from all of their family members in that house. It also means that we can know with greater precision what the actual mortality rate is, instead of people dying at home from mysterious causes which we don't have the time or resources to investigate at the moment before we stick 'em unceremoniously in the ground. Culture swabs are precisely what you go to the doctor for. "Doc what's wrong with me? I feel like crap." "Let's take a throat/nasal swab and see." Knowing that once upon a time you used to have it is not about controlling the disease spread as much as it is about the economy. That's not _unimportant_, but it is secondary at the moment.


----------



## Wardo

boyscout said:


> And there's the rest of it, amply confirming my previous paragraphs. All those different agencies that have to be consulted and engaged, get their bureaucrats up to speed, all that process that must be followed, blah, blah, blah...
> 
> People who think like this even in the face of a medical crisis that's killing at least tens of Canadians EVERY SINGLE DAY dominate our governments. They rise to the very top of it ...


I heard a doctor being interviewed a couple of weeks ago and he had been treating ebola outbreaks for the last 20 years; he said pretty much the same thing. His point was that, when dealing with epidemics etc, speed trumps perfection and you can't wait around because the infection rate keeps growing while you're contemplating what to do. He also referred to the bureaucratic mentality that won't do anything until it's been discussed ad nauseam and that these people rise to the top of government.

It was obvious what needed to be done in January and it was obvious that the present government would fail to take the required steps and that people would die as a result of that failure.


----------



## davetcan

Wait a minute. Are telling me the swab test predicts whether or not you will get the virus? Silly me thought it just confirmed that you already had it.


----------



## vadsy

davetcan said:


> People are complaining about the length of time approval takes, I would hope we all agree some approval is necessary. If the health services of both the USA and the UK have approved it perhaps our approval could start with a simple phone call asking on what grounds they were approved? Or are we waiting for approval from the WHO?


I know I know, you guys are just being vigilant and looking after all of our best interest... not bitching for the sake of bitching


----------



## boyscout

mhammer said:


> Health Canada regulates what is sold _within_ this country.


Of course. You have read carelessly. I reported the fact that we have reciprocal agreements with the U.K. and U.S.A that reduce some of the burden of getting products approved for sale HERE, by giving a form of "credit" (to express it simplistically) for the fact that such products have already been approved by the U.K. or the U.S.A. for sale in their countries. In other words, a "we trust what you did to approve the product" agreement that usually shortens the effort and the time required to gain approval to sell products HERE if those products have already been approved for sale THERE.

In this case, a couple of the antibody blood tests are actually produced HERE. However since they have been approved THERE, they could reasonably be considered more expeditiously for sale HERE under the spirit of the existing agreements.

Hope that's simple enough. I'll ignore the rest of that rambling paragraph.



mhammer said:


> Why do all those agencies have to be consulted? Because if we KNEW this was going to happen years ago, we would have designed a federal government to anticipate it and task ONE eff-ing department to handle it, you fool.


We DID, you fool! Dr. Theresa Tam was previously the Assistant Deputy Minister for the Prevention of Infectious Disease. Doesn't get a lot clearer or more specific than that.

As you know very well, but for the benefit of those who don't, that means that she was the head of a full department inside Health Canada, reporting to the Deputy Minister of Health, that was tasked with infectious disease prevention, which ANY fool can understand was a department responsible for ensuring that we had plans, training, PPE stockpiles, preliminary manufacturing agreements with renewable set points for getting production of equipment, tests, and supplies rapidly up to speed, and other things READY and IN PLACE to deal with the pandemic we're enjoying now. It has been apparent that virtually nothing effective was done in advance to prepare us for this.

Thousands of people have KNOWN that a pandemic like the one we're enjoying now was a likelihood, have warned about it for well over a decade. Theresa Tam, if she didn't have her head in a hole, knew of the warnings and the risks. She did little to prepare us effectively for them, despite that that was her job.



mhammer said:


> Every year, departments get sliced and diced, and responsibilities partialled out, as folks cogitate over how some issues could be better handled if these folks here worked alongside those folks there. PHAC didn't exist until SARS. There were some folks at Health Canada that dealt with such matters, and National Defence used to have a center for emergency preparedness that was bundled up with the Solicitor General's office, and the crime-prevention directorate at Justice Canada, in 2003 to become Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. But the idea of a separate agency that ONLY deals with matters of overall public health challenges, and public health promotion, wasn't on *anyone's* radar until SARS.


Good grief! That's supposed to be a REBUTTAL to my description of some of the reasons that our government has responded so poorly to this crisis? Can't you see that it CONFIRMS my points?!

And yes, SARS was over fifteen years ago. At some point after that the department responsible for dealing with the next one was set up. FIFTEEN YEARS AGO. At some point after that Theresa Tam was appointed to lead that department. WTF has been done there since? Years! Well over a decade! Yet most of what SHOULD have been done wasn't even started.



mhammer said:


> PHAC deals with the planning and overall response to public health challenges. They do not have any branch which is tasked with assuring the safety of products, whether they be drugs, surgical implants, food, or medical tests. That assessment expertise resides at HC.


Again, good grief. Health Canada has massive departments responsible for "assuring the safety of products, whether they be drugs, surgical implants, food, or medical tests." A great deal of information about what they do - including specific information about approvals, detailed regulations, and much more - is accessible online by virtually anyone who wants to look at it. More information could be and probably is available to PHAC bureaucrats. What mountain are you trying to create out of this molehill?! Surely NOT that PHAC has its hands tied by not being closer to the approval process, so why are you blowing smoke about that?



mhammer said:


> It _might_ be a mistake to wait on antibody tests. And it might not. We don't know either way right now. The UK and US _might_ be wasting their money and breath on this first wave of commercial rapid tests. And they might not. We don't know, and neither do they.


Indeed, the antibody tests may not contribute a great deal to our intelligence about this virus; too early to know for sure, but it's likely that they will contribute intelligence. That's a small risk balanced against the possibility of it filling in holes and broadening intelligence about the virus. The authoritative reviews of several other equally-medically-advanced countries have already concluded that the risk is worth taking. Since the production and use of this test does not interfere at all with the other testing that we so desperately need, it *IS* a mistake to hold off on approving its use here, with whatever cautions are deemed necessary to reduce risk of their use.


----------



## davetcan

vadsy said:


> I know I know, you guys are just being vigilant and looking after all of our best interest... not bitching for the sake of bitching


----------



## boyscout

davetcan said:


> Wait a minute. Are telling me the swab test predicts whether or not you will get the virus? Silly me thought it just confirmed that you already had it.


Who and what are you responding to Dave?

The swab test does NOT predict, it tests for the presence of the virus. It can often detect it even when the patient is not exhibiting symptoms, so that's why MUCH wider testing could help us reduce the spread of the virus, as it has in other countries.


----------



## vadsy

davetcan said:


> View attachment 304866


easy, Becky


----------



## davetcan

Responding to Mark's comment quoted below.

_"I concur. Though the antibody tests will be handy, I would prioritize the throat swabs *because they provide information about what is going to happen, *whereas the antibody tests tell you about what has happened._



boyscout said:


> Who and what are you responding to Dave?
> 
> The swab test does NOT predict, it tests for the presence of the virus. It can often detect it even when the patient is not exhibiting symptoms, so that's why MUCH wider testing could help us reduce the spread of the virus, as it has in other countries.


----------



## davetcan

vadsy said:


> easy, Becky


Just fine here Karen.


----------



## vadsy

davetcan said:


> Just fine here Karen.


Karen is already taken


----------



## mhammer

davetcan said:


> Wait a minute. Are telling me the swab test predicts whether or not you will get the virus? Silly me thought it just confirmed that you already had it.


No, no no. The swab says whether you *are* infected, currently. The antibody test says that you _were_ infected, but fought it off. Knowing that you are currently infected predicts that you _might_ get very very sick soon, and might make other people sick, which is worth knowing about. It is also worth knowing that you used to be infected but developed antibodies to the infection, perhaps after illness symptoms, and perhaps in the complete absence of symptoms. The working assumption is that, at least for a while (and even Fauci says nobody knows for how long; they're just guesstimating from other viruses) you'll be immune to that virus, because the immune response will be sufficient to overcome any new virus that tries to take you on. And that makes you eligible to go to work because there won't, in theory, be enough virus in you to infect anyone else. Of course you'll still have to wash your hands, but at least you'll be able to do that at work.


----------



## jb welder

vadsy said:


> the people bitching here on ‘why isn’t it available yet, we don’t need approval’ are the same people that would bitch if it was being used immediately without the proper approval .


Surely not the ones who were hopping mad about the PM sending 1200 masks to China but now cheering on Keto's post about Kenney giving away a mere quarter million of Alberta's masks?


----------



## gtrguy

davetcan said:


> If you test them with something that "might" not be accurate you still won't know, but then again you might


If the test isn't accurate you don't really know anything do you? It's basically russian roulette... Hey, this person who is a senior's home care worker tested negative... put her back to work. Oh shit! I guess the test was wrong in this case, sorry all you people she infected who then spread it to a bunch of other people then died.

This isn't rocket science folks.


----------



## Electraglide

davetcan said:


> Wait a minute. Are telling me the swab test predicts whether or not you will get the virus? Silly me thought it just confirmed that you already had it.


Or don't have it at the moment.


----------



## Electraglide

davetcan said:


> View attachment 304866


I'll go with what my drs. tell me.


----------



## Electraglide

davetcan said:


> Responding to Mark.
> 
> _"I concur. Though the antibody tests will be handy, I would prioritize the throat swabs *because they provide information about what is going to happen, *whereas the antibody tests tell you about what has happened._


I thought the throat swabs said if the person either had or didn't have the virus at that time of the test. Providing info about what's going to happen? Like you don't have it now but will have it next week?


----------



## Electraglide

jb welder said:


> Surely not the ones who were hopping mad about the PM sending 1200 masks to China but now cheering on Keto's post about Kenney giving away a mere quarter million of Alberta's masks?


From the sounds of it a bit more than that. 
The province is donating 750,000 N95 masks, seven million procedural masks and 50 ventilators, as well as gloves and goggles, to the three provinces, BC, Que and Ont. 
“We would not contribute if it in any way impaired our ability to provide for our own health care needs, but I for one, as an Albertan and as a Canadian, could not in conscience watch us stockpile massive amounts of surplus equipment while we see many of our fellow Canadians, some provinces, within days of running out of some of these supplies.”


----------



## vadsy




----------



## vadsy




----------



## SG-Rocker

LMGTFY


----------



## vadsy

SG-Rocker said:


> LMGTFY


lol., do you need it to be bigger? I don't think I can do that, this is the largest it'll allow. I'm just looking out for the older members here who may have trouble with their vision


----------



## laristotle

Beijing tightens grip over coronavirus research, amid US-China row on virus origin

Hong Kong (CNN)_China has imposed restrictions on the publication of academic research on the origins of the novel coronavirus, according to a central government directive and online notices published by two Chinese universities, that have since been removed from the web.

Under the new policy, all academic papers on Covid-19 will be subject to extra vetting before being submitted for publication. Studies on the origin of the virus will receive extra scrutiny and must be approved by central government officials, according to the now-deleted posts

The increased scrutiny appears to be the latest effort by the Chinese government to control the narrative on the origins of the coronavirus pandemic, which has claimed more than 100,000 lives and sickened 1.7 million people worldwide since it first broke out in the Chinese city of Wuhan in December. 
Since late January, Chinese researchers have published a series of Covid-19 studies in influential international medical journals. Some findings about early coronavirus cases -- such as when human-to-human transition first appeared -- have raised questions over the official government account of the outbreak and sparked controversy on Chinese social media.
And now, Chinese authorities appear to be tightening their grip on the publication of Covid-19 research. 
A Chinese researcher who spoke on condition of anonymity due to fear of retaliation said the move was a worrying development that would likely obstruct important scientific research. 
"I think it is a coordinated effort from (the) Chinese government to control (the) narrative, and paint it as if the outbreak did not originate in China," the researcher told CNN. "And I don't think they will really tolerate any objective study to investigate the origination of this disease." 

The directive is based on instructions issued during a March 25 meeting held by the State Council's task force on the prevention and control of Covid-19, it said.
The document was first posted Friday morning on the website of the Fudan University in Shanghai, one of China's leading universities.
When CNN called a contact number left at the end of the notice, a staff member of the Education ministry's science and technology department confirmed they had issued the directive.
"It is not supposed to be made public -- it is an internal document," said the person, who refused to reveal his name.
A few hours later, the Fudan University page was taken down.
The China University of Geoscience in Wuhan also posted a similar notice about the extra vetting on Covid-19 papers on its website. The page has since been deleted, but a cached version of it remains accessible._


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Milkman

Coronavirus: Britain’s Boris Johnson discharged from hospital


----------



## davetcan

gtrguy said:


> If the test isn't accurate you don't really know anything do you? It's basically russian roulette... Hey, this person who is a senior's home care worker tested negative... put her back to work. Oh shit! I guess the test was wrong in this case, sorry all you people she infected who then spread it to a bunch of other people then died.
> 
> This isn't rocket science folks.


You're quite right, it's not rocket science. It's similar to what millions of diabetics use every day to monitor blood sugar.

Coronavirus: Why isn’t Canada using blood tests for COVID-19?

_“They are absolutely the gold standard for understanding the spread of this infection,” she said._

But what does she know, she's only the Canada Research Chair in aging and immunity at McMaster University.

_McMaster University, Sinai Health, the University of Toronto and other research labs are all working to develop a blood test that can determine who is immune to COVID-19.

Private companies, meanwhile, have already created rapid blood tests that can provide results in under 20 minutes. The tests have been approved for use in Europe, Asia and the U.S, but in Canada, they are still “under review.”
_
And just how accurate are the swab tests?
_
False Negatives Raise Doctors' Doubts About Coronavirus Tests

False-negative results from coronavirus tests are becoming an increasing concern, say doctors trying to diagnose patients and get a grip on the outbreak, as a surprising number of people show up with obvious symptoms only to be told by the tests that they don’t have the disease.

Concerns about false negatives arise from a mix of factors: quickly created tests from dozens of labs and manufacturers that haven't been extensively vetted by federal health regulators; a shortage of supplies and material for the tests that may impact results, long incubation times for the infection, and the challenge of getting an adequate sample from a patient. 

Most tests rely on a nasal swab that penetrates deep into the pharynx, the mucous membrane behind the nose and mouth. Even for a trained health worker, it can be difficult: It’s an invasive procedure that often causes patients to squirm. With a shortage of staff to conduct such widespread testing, in many cases people not typically trained to do so are collecting samples.
_


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> False positives and negatives be damned? Are you serious, man?


Dead serious. Listen Mark, the alternative is that as soon as the curve flattens they're gonna relax restrictions, infected people not showing symptoms will walk among us again and we'll most likely end up with a second wave and start all over again.

Knowing something is better than knowing nothing.


----------



## Frenchy99

After reading lots of different reports from different countries... Seems that the current goal is to get 60 to 70 % of the population infected in a control manner to get control over this Wuhan virus... so, yes.. they will want more people to get infected slowly throughout the year.


----------



## Wardo

"laristotle said:


> _
> Under the new policy, all academic papers on Covid-19 will be subject to extra vetting before being submitted for publication. S._


I wonder if China will say that the virus was intentionally planted on them by the US.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

I'm confused.

The blood test has a unpredictable percentage of false negatives AND false positives?

What is it, the Schrodinger test?


----------



## allthumbs56

Good news.

Canadian company says Health Canada has approved its rapid COVID-19 test

To know within an hour and can be done at your local pharmacy. 42,500 licensed pharmacies in Canada. Every Canadian could be tested in a matter of weeks. Now THAT is the kind of testing we need.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> Good news.
> 
> Canadian company says Health Canada has approved its rapid COVID-19 test
> 
> To know within an hour and can be done at your local pharmacy. 42,500 licensed pharmacies in Canada. Every Canadian could be tested in a matter of weeks. Now THAT is the kind of testing we need.


Yes I think testing is a huge factor, at least for me.

It's entirely possible that we have already been infected and had very mild symptoms, in which case, my level of anxiety would be MUCH lower.

To know one way or another would be a big deal to me.


----------



## davetcan

allthumbs56 said:


> Good news.
> 
> Canadian company says Health Canada has approved its rapid COVID-19 test
> 
> To know within an hour and can be done at your local pharmacy. 42,500 licensed pharmacies in Canada. Every Canadian could be tested in a matter of weeks. Now THAT is the kind of testing we need.


Great news, good for them!


----------



## davetcan

Jim DaddyO said:


> I'm confused.
> 
> The blood test has a unpredictable percentage of false negatives AND false positives?
> 
> What is it, the Schrodinger test?


It's complicated and is not Covid specific.

More than half of abnormal results from laboratory tests ordered by family physicians could be false-positive


----------



## Dorian2

Hope everyone had a good long weekend.


----------



## Milkman




----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> Yes I think testing is a huge factor, at least for me.
> 
> It's entirely possible that we have already been infected and had very mild symptoms, in which case, my level of anxiety would be MUCH lower.
> 
> To know one way or another would be a big deal to me.


That's why I'm a fan of the blood-antibody testing. Any of us that had what we thought was the flu might have been a mild Covid-19. It would be good for us to know that.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

davetcan said:


> It's complicated and is not Covid specific.


So, let me see if this is correct. The blood antibody test can result in both false positive and false negative readings and can only tell if you had something, maybe, but not necesarily Covid 19?


----------



## Electraglide

Delete


----------



## davetcan

Jim DaddyO said:


> So, let me see if this is correct. The blood antibody test can result in both false positive and false negative readings and can only tell if you had something, maybe, but not necesarily Covid 19?


I have no idea, as documented in the link above it sounds like ALL tests for ANYTHING result in some false positives. As for how accurate a particular test is I'll leave that up to the experts in the field, not someone here. If the chair of research into aging and immunity tells me these tests are the gold standard then I'll go along with her until someone proves her wrong. How accurate this particular test is then time will tell. It may be more accurate than the swabs, or less. I'd prefer to err on the side of doing something, as opposed to doing nothing.

The other consideration in all of this is how quickly do we want to get people working again? We cannot afford to keep everything shut down for an extended duration. Many of these lost jobs will not come back already. If we can do something that facilitates getting people back to work safely then we need to do it. 

The article posted above says that the new 20 minute test being rolled out is 100% accurate. I have my doubts that anything is 100% but if it's anywhere close to that we need to be all over it.


----------



## Electraglide

allthumbs56 said:


> Good news.
> 
> Canadian company says Health Canada has approved its rapid COVID-19 test
> 
> To know within an hour and can be done at your local pharmacy. 42,500 licensed pharmacies in Canada. Every Canadian could be tested in a matter of weeks. Now THAT is the kind of testing we need.


This another of the swab in nose tests? Hopefully they approve some of the blood tests soon so you'll know right there and then.


----------



## JBFairthorne

Yeah the sooner people get back to work the better. The longer that things are closed, the more employers will end up closing shop. It will be a rude awakening when people are allowed to return to work and find their job has vanished. Worse still, by then this $2k benefit will also likely vanish. It’s simply not sustainable. Every day this continues jobs are disappearing for the foreseeable future. It will take time for them to be replaced. I couldn’t imagine owning a retail store that doesn’t sell groceries or pharmaceuticals right now. Even large chains will likely downsize the number of locations in order to survive as a whole.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

davetcan said:


> how quickly do we want to get people working again?


ASAP I would say.

But a test that may or may not tell you if you've HAD something (past tense), and they can't tell what that something is, is a rather vague thing to be relying on isn't it?

More welcome would be an accurate test that tells you if you HAVE Covid 19. Then appropriate steps can be taken. This is what the new rapid Covid-19 test is claiming, is it not? 

It may be that some people in certain occupations would have to get that test done almost daily depending on exposure risk also (medical staff, people who work with the public). Then wait an hour for the results to come in before starting to interact with others.


----------



## davetcan

In my opinion we need both. We need something able to tell us if we've already had it. The benefit of that is twofold. It will allow us to better determine the spread of the virus, and it will enable us to track the eventuality of re-infection.

Obviously we also need something to tell us as quickly as possible if we already have it. The problem, if there is one, with the test we've just purchased is that it still requires a swab. That remains a challenge per an article referenced earlier.


----------



## keto

JBFairthorne said:


> Yeah the sooner people get back to work the better. The longer that things are closed, the more employers will end up closing shop. It will be a rude awakening when people are allowed to return to work and find their job has vanished. Worse still, by then this $2k benefit will also likely vanish. It’s simply not sustainable. Every day this continues jobs are disappearing for the foreseeable future. It will take time for them to be replaced. I couldn’t imagine owning a retail store that doesn’t sell groceries or pharmaceuticals right now. Even large chains will likely downsize the number of locations in order to survive as a whole.


Yes to all. I've been trying to wrap my head around all the small and mid sized businesses that will close, all the employees out of work. Even those left, many will be left burdened with 'unpayable' debt, as they borrow now just to keep the doors open. Who is going to have the financial wherewithal and the guts to go back into business, in what is going to be a very depressed marketplace? Yes, we will have new types of business emerge, that we can't imagine today. But that's unlikely to employ the many millions we're going to have unemployed across Canada.

But how do you do it? I've read 10 different plans that all have pluses and minuses, and all will outrage one or another segment of the population. Going to be some hard decisions and, no matter which way it's done, it's going to cost lives - whether from disease or poverty.


----------



## Ship of fools

Its not knowing if you could contract the Covid virus a second time. I remember reading that with polio that even those who had a very mild case were able to contract polio again if it was a different strain. So I am only guessing that they maybe thinking the same for this bug.
And I still think that this bug was from a lab and not a bat as the Chinese are claiming and that maybe why they are so adamant to not let more information out of the research they are doing.
Its a strange world we all now live in and its kind of scary in so many ways. Kind of like a war but we don't know who the real enemy is and where he is going to strike next.
Good lord I miss my grand kids and not having easter family dinner with them.


----------



## keto

davetcan said:


> In my opinion we need both. We need something able to tell us if we've already had it. The benefit of that is twofold. It will allow us to better determine the spread of the virus, and it will enable us to track the eventuality of re-infection.
> 
> Obviously we also need something to tell us as quickly as possible if we already have it. The problem, if there is one, with the test we've just purchased is that it still requires a swab. That remains a challenge per an article referenced earlier.



Also, it hasn't been proven that previously having the disease equals future immunity, we don't know how or how quickly it evolves.
From a medical web page:
"When it comes to viruses, the same rules apply for any virus. If our body has built up an immune response to one strain - for example, a particular strain of influenza - then we can fight off that virus without developing full-blown symptoms if exposed to it again. But if the virus strain mutates and changes, which the flu does every year, then our body will need to build up another immune response. This is why yearly flu vaccines are vital."


----------



## Milkman

I understand how important it is to restore the economy to "normal" but personally I'm placing a higher priority on ensuring our health and safety.

If that means more time working from home, I'm all over that.


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> This another of the swab in nose tests? Hopefully they approve some of the blood tests soon so you'll know right there and then.


Nope. Two different beasts. The swab-in-the-nose is cultured to see if virus grows. If the virus itself is measurable, you're infected. You might get better. You might get really sick before you get better. And a small percentage will not get better, ever. It lets you know who to hard-quarantine/isolate, and how many ICU beds and ventilators you might need in the coming days. 

The blood-antibody test evaluates whether you have_* had*_ the virus, sometime in the past and successfully fought it off. Bear in mind that if the blood antibody test shows no evidence of the relevant antibodies, it means you are still fair game for the virus. The best result for the nation as a whole is that a VERY high percentage of those tested show _true_ evidence of antibodies, with no false positives (i.e., folks who come up showing antibodies, but in error), and no false negatives (i.e., people who show no evidence of antibodies, but actually have them). The desired result is that a significant share of the populace show dependable evidence of immunity...essentially what you'd aim for if all those folks who were supposed to get a flu shot every year actually did so.

The nose-swab is also better for contact-tracing purposes since it provides evidence of a current (hence recently contracted) infection, whereas given how much time it takes for antibodies to develop, just where/how you got infected may be difficult to ascertain. The two categories of test provide advantages for different sorts of societal objectives. "Getting back to normal" requires both types of test.


----------



## JBFairthorne

What about the people who could potentially become homeless or unable to feed themselves or their families? Is that not just another form of health and safety? Not everyone has the luxury of being able to work from home.


----------



## guitarman2

Milkman said:


> I understand how important it is to restore the economy to "normal" but personally I'm placing a higher priority on ensuring our health and safety.
> 
> If that means more time working from home, I'm all over that.


Leave the economy on pause long enough and there will be enough deaths from a great depression that will make you forget all about covid 19


----------



## Milkman

guitarman2 said:


> Leave the economy on pause long enough and there will be enough deaths from a great depression that will make you forget all about covid 19


Yes, I'm aware but we're talking about the difference of a few weeks not months.

Rushing things right now will cause deaths.

Depression won't likely kill me. Covid-19 might.


----------



## keto

JBFairthorne said:


> What about the people who could potentially become homeless or unable to feed themselves or their families? Is that not just another form of health and safety? Not everyone has the luxury of being able to work from home.


I was going to make that point. Think about all the folks who are unable to pay rent, then their landlords can't pay their mortgages. Bank takes over the property at some point - yes, there's going to be or is a moratorium on evictions, but that's going to end at some point and A LOT of people are going to be out - landlord might have some sympathy, but the bank is always going to be 'pay or leave, by your choice or ours'.

Food banks are stressed now today, imagine in 3-4-6 months?

Supply chain continues to have little failures here and there, sooner or later they add up to a critical failure. Whether people walking out over fear, unable to work because sick, unable to deliver for one reason or another, the wealthy buying up or close by or government disallowing the movement of certain goods - it's happened with medical, what about when it starts happening with food?

We have to get back to work.

EDIT was to fix a couple small typos.


----------



## JBFairthorne

How do you come to the absolute conclusion that it’s only the difference between a few weeks and a few months? When this started the kids were only supposed to be off for March break an extra 2 weeks. Now they’re off indefinitely. There’s no certain timeframe.


----------



## mhammer

keto said:


> Also, it hasn't been proven that previously having the disease equals future immunity, we don't know how or how quickly it evolves.
> From a medical web page:
> "When it comes to viruses, the same rules apply for any virus. If our body has built up an immune response to one strain - for example, a particular strain of influenza - then we can fight off that virus without developing full-blown symptoms if exposed to it again. But if the virus strain mutates and changes, which the flu does every year, then our body will need to build up another immune response. This is why yearly flu vaccines are vital."


I listened to an on-line interview with Dr. Fauci a few weeks ago and his view was that our best guess at this point is that the successful bodily response to this virus is likely going to be like our response to many other viruses. That is, immunity will be in evidence for some period of time, but not forever. That is, after all, why we got "booster shots" as children; it took more than one vaccination to produce a sustained immune response to all those diseases we've come to view as something from the past (diptheria, rubella, whooping cough, etc.). So if one has become infected Covid-19, and successfully beaten it of your own accord, with your own immune system, the likelihood of being reinfected during the current pandemic wave is exceedingly low. As for whether a 2nd wave next winter can reinfect....well, we'll see what happens. This is, after all, a new type of virus. It is reasonable to generalize from related types of viruses, but one needs to be measured in how far you generalize. And bear in mind that there are some diseases that getting once seems to provide lifelong immunity to, and others where "booster shots" are required, because once is not enough to provide that long-term immunity. At the moment, because it has only been 4 months since this virus was first identified, we have no idea if Covid-19 is of the one type or the other. Let's hope it's the better and more lasting-immunity type.


----------



## Milkman

JBFairthorne said:


> How do you come to the absolute conclusion that it’s only the difference between a few weeks and a few months? When this started the kids were only supposed to be off for March break an extra 2 weeks. Now they’re off indefinitely. There’s no certain timeframe.



I don't know that. It's hopeful / wishful thinking I guess.

I don't have any more of a crystal ball than any of us, but I don't want to rush back to "normal" prematurely and have a second explosion of cases.


----------



## keto

Milkman said:


> Yes, I'm aware but we're talking about the difference of a few weeks not months.
> 
> Rushing things right now will cause deaths.
> 
> Depression won't likely kill me. Covid-19 might.


Minimum 12, more like 18-24 months to a vaccine, that may or may not work depending on how the virus evolves.



JBFairthorne said:


> How do you come to the absolute conclusion that it’s only the difference between a few weeks and a few months? When this started the kids were only supposed to be off for March break an extra 2 weeks. Now they’re off indefinitely. There’s no certain timeframe.


Yup. Almost no matter when we all get 'released', there's going to be a 2nd wave just from having all the human contact start up again, combined with open borders.


----------



## Wardo

Even the best case projections suggest that there is going to be one hell of a knock on effect for future employment. A lot of business and jobs won’t be coming back and working from home is only possible for a particular category of the labour force. I suspect that the majority of people can’t work from home and their jobs are just going to disappear.


----------



## boyscout

allthumbs56 said:


> That's why I'm a fan of the blood-antibody testing. Any of us that had what we thought was the flu might have been a mild Covid-19. It would be good for us to know that.


It's still a long way from certain that surviving an infection of Covid-19 inoculates against getting it again, either for the short term or the long term. Federal officials have used that as part of their "rationale" for not approving use of the antibody test here.


----------



## guitarman2

Milkman said:


> Yes, I'm aware but we're talking about the difference of a few weeks not months.
> 
> Rushing things right now will cause deaths.
> 
> Depression won't likely kill me. Covid-19 might.


Unfortunately I suspect that a few more weeks is not going to magically stamp out covid 19. The politicians have already hinted at several months to more than a year. 
Going back to normal in a few weeks, in my opinion just won't work.


----------



## Milkman

Wardo said:


> Even the best case projections suggest that there is going to be one hell of a knock on effect for future employment. A lot of business and jobs won’t be coming back and working from home is only possible for a particular category of the labour force. I suspect that the majority of people can’t work from home and their jobs are just going to disappear.



Or, as soon as we're "released" there might be an explosive demand that can't be met with normal staffing levels.

My experience with pandemics is somewhat limited.

Will people completely stop consuming? I doubt it.


----------



## Distortion

vadsy said:


>


I will burn it first.


----------



## Milkman

guitarman2 said:


> Unfortunately I suspect that a few more weeks is not going to magically stamp out covid 19. The politicians have already hinted at several months to more than a year.
> Going back to normal in a few weeks, in my opinion just won't work.


Well then we agree.

I also don't think we should be trying to return to "normal" too quickly.


----------



## davetcan

keto said:


> Also, it hasn't been proven that previously having the disease equals future immunity, we don't know how or how quickly it evolves.
> From a medical web page:
> "When it comes to viruses, the same rules apply for any virus. If our body has built up an immune response to one strain - for example, a particular strain of influenza - then we can fight off that virus without developing full-blown symptoms if exposed to it again. But if the virus strain mutates and changes, which the flu does every year, then our body will need to build up another immune response. This is why yearly flu vaccines are vital."


As I mentioned above "the ability to track re-infection". If we don't know if someone has already had it then we won't know that immunity is not guaranteed.


----------



## guitarman2

Milkman said:


> Well then we agree.
> 
> I also don't think we should be trying to return to "normal" too quickly.


My experience with global pandemics is also non existent. Which is why I try not to criticize our leaders as I've seen many do on various forums.
I don't know what the answer is to when we should resume the economy. At this point for me personally its not critical as both my wife and I continue to work . I already see the effects of the economy shutdown with higher grocery prices. But this is nothing compared to what a great depression could do. We're not even close to that and my wife and I have lost tens of thousands in our RRSP's. 
I can't imagine what it must be like for those that have lost their jobs and have to pay these higher grocery prices. Eventually there will come a time where a lot of us will want to take our chances with the virus. 
Many experts say that we are 18 months out for a vaccine and thats a maybe. Can a total shut down of the economy for that long be sustained. 
Pretty much over night we've become a pure socialist country (more so than we were). When the government runs out of money what then. Instant "Venezuala"?


----------



## Distortion

keto said:


> We have to get back to work.


Come to Ontario or Quebec they are in need of PSW's in nursing homes. Feed people and change them etc. I believe it is no training required right about now.


----------



## colchar

Wardo said:


> Even the best case projections suggest that there is going to be one hell of a knock on effect for future employment. A lot of business and jobs won’t be coming back and working from home is only possible for a particular category of the labour force. I suspect that the majority of people can’t work from home and their jobs are just going to disappear.



I think a lot more will work from home, at least some of the time, than had previously been the case.


----------



## colchar

boyscout said:


> It's still a long way from certain that surviving an infection of Covid-19 inoculates against getting it again, either for the short term or the long term. Federal officials have used that as part of their "rationale" for not approving use of the antibody test here.



It isn't their rationale, it is the WHO's, and it is absolutely disgusting that our government is following the WHO like some pathetic lapdog:

LILLEY: Trudeau government needs to stop taking COVID orders from WHO


----------



## guitarman2

Distortion said:


> Come to Ontario or Quebec they are in need of PSW's in nursing homes. Feed people and change them etc. I believe it is no training required right about now.


My daughter spent several years as a PSW in retirement homes. She ended up leaving the field to become a waitress because she had more fun and made a lot more money. Now that the bottom fell out of that industry she went back to PSW and had no trouble have a former employer hire her back.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

There is some anecdotal evidence of reinfection already.

The only thing we know for sure is that we don't know enough.


----------



## allthumbs56

guitarman2 said:


> Many experts say that we are 18 months out for a vaccine and thats a maybe.


I don't kinow that I'll be in a rush to take a vaccine that's hurried into production-which could still be 2 years or more away from being readily available. As well, it's been over 15 years since SARS visited - and we still don't have a vaccine for that.

I'm more in the camp of rapid, extensive testing - catch people in the asymptomatic stage and get them home. Also big on the idea of a "cure" of some kind for those that need it. I think THAT'S how we get back to normal.


----------



## colchar

Credit for this goes to @Jim DaddyO who originally came across it.

Apparently scientists have developed a vaccine for Covid 19 but won't release it until they can figure out how to make it cause autism.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

guitarman2 said:


> My daughter spent several years as a PSW in retirement homes. She ended up leaving the field to become a waitress because she had more fun and made a lot more money. Now that the bottom fell out of that industry she went back to PSW and had no trouble have a former employer hire her back.


About the only jobs on the Indeed Job sites right now are delivery people and PSW's. I have noticed over the past week or so that the wages being offered for both are rising, especially the PSW's


----------



## Jim Wellington

colchar said:


> It isn't their rationale, it is the WHO's, and it is absolutely disgusting that our government is following the WHO like some pathetic lapdog:
> 
> LILLEY: Trudeau government needs to stop taking COVID orders from WHO


Trudeau the globalist will listen to anyone who can defer the responsibility away from him and his motley crew of low achievers. The W.H.O., the U.N. his go to institutions...they pack the snowballs, he throws them.


----------



## vadsy

Distortion said:


> Come to Ontario or Quebec they are in need of PSW's in nursing homes. Feed people and change them etc. I believe it is no training required right about now.


No training required? ..sounds perfect for the lot of you guys. We’ve been sending you cash for years and we just sent you a bunch of medical supplies, the least you can do is get off your asses and do it yourself. mmkay?


----------



## guitarman2

allthumbs56 said:


> *I don't kinow that I'll be in a rush to take a vaccine that's hurried into production*-which could still be 2 years or more away from being readily available. As well, it's been over 15 years since SARS visited - and we still don't have a vaccine for that.
> 
> I'm more in the camp of rapid, extensive testing - catch people in the asymptomatic stage and get them home. Also big on the idea of a "cure" of some kind for those that need it. I think THAT'S how we get back to normal.


lol. When they come out with the vaccine I think I'll still be social distancing and taking a "you first" attitude towards the vaccine. Supposedly the death rate for covid 19 is around 2% or under. I suppose there will be some risk of bad reaction with a vaccine. Maybe a death rate of 2%.


----------



## jimsz

keto said:


> I was going to make that point. Think about all the folks who are unable to pay rent, then their landlords can't pay their mortgages. Bank takes over the property at some point - yes, there's going to be or is a moratorium on evictions, but that's going to end at some point and A LOT of people are going to be out - landlord might have some sympathy, but the bank is always going to be 'pay or leave, by your choice or ours'.


I wonder if it's in the best interest for a landlord to evict someone if they can't pay their rent? I mean, with so many people having lost their jobs, there may not be anyone available to rent the place and the landlord winds up footing the bill anyways.


----------



## Distortion

vadsy said:


> No training required? ..sounds perfect for the lot of you guys. We’ve been sending you cash for years and we just sent you a bunch of medical supplies, the least you can do is get off your asses and do it yourself. mmkay?


You can come and get a job also.Share the travel expenses with Keto.


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> Credit for this goes to @Jim DaddyO who originally came across it.
> 
> Apparently scientists have developed a vaccine for Covid 19 but won't release it until they can figure out how to make it cause autism.


That's assuming that the Anti-vaxxers still have jobs when this is over


----------



## Distortion

guitarman2 said:


> My daughter spent several years as a PSW in retirement homes. She ended up leaving the field to become a waitress because she had more fun and made a lot more money. Now that the bottom fell out of that industry she went back to PSW and had no trouble have a former employer hire her back.


Yes not a easy job. Should be getting danger pay from the fed's on top.


----------



## vadsy

Distortion said:


> You can come and get a job also.Share the travel expenses with Keto.


sorry, dude. self isolating.


----------



## keto

Distortion said:


> You can come and get a job also.Share the travel expenses with Keto.


? Gainfully employed, thanks. WFH is just routine for me, 18 years in.


----------



## Distortion

GuitarsCanada said:


> About the only jobs on the Indeed Job sites right now are delivery people and PSW's. I have noticed over the past week or so that the wages being offered for both are rising, especially the PSW's


Now the delivery job would interest me. If the truck is loaded and the customer does not mind having the parcel thrown from the street I am in.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Distortion said:


> Now the delivery job would interest me. If the truck is loaded and the customer does not mind having the parcel thrown from the street I am in.


I forgot to mention security guards. Lots of security guard jobs available to patrol all the closed businesses.


----------



## tomee2

player99 said:


> On the news last week farmers are dumping millions of gallons and now stores are out of milk. WTF is wrong with the human species? Could the supply be over demand and lower the price? Could the excess be given to the poor and the hungry?


Or make cheese??? No wait, then cheese wouldn't be $15 per kg. Feed it to pigs? 
Ya, stupid. And I grew up on a farm...


----------



## colchar

The hypocrisy is strong in this one Obi-Wan:


Trudeau family spends Easter weekend on Fogo Island, Newfoundland | CBC News


----------



## Milkman

Some people just don't get it.


Just a second,.….there. That's better.


----------



## keto

colchar said:


> The hypocrisy is strong in this one Obi-Wan:
> 
> 
> Trudeau family spends Easter weekend on Fogo Island, Newfoundland | CBC News





Milkman said:


> Some people just don't get it.
> 
> 
> Just a second,.….there. That's better.


Reverse the order of those 2 quotes.


----------



## Milkman

I don't envy Dave.


----------



## davetcan

colchar said:


> The hypocrisy is strong in this one Obi-Wan:
> 
> 
> Trudeau family spends Easter weekend on Fogo Island, Newfoundland | CBC News


Well it could have been worse.











Nothing like setting a good example for the rest of the country though. Perhaps it was essential travel?


----------



## davetcan

Milkman said:


> I don't envy Dave.


It's OK, I don't consider him a politician


----------



## Milkman

davetcan said:


> It's OK, I don't consider him a politician



Bold praise indeed.


----------



## vadsy

Milkman said:


> I don't envy Dave.


lol, Dave loves this. This whole thing is his wheelhouse.


----------



## colchar

colchar said:


> The hypocrisy is strong in this one Obi-Wan:
> 
> 
> Trudeau family spends Easter weekend on Fogo Island, Newfoundland | CBC News




Looks like I missed the date on that story, it is old news.

That being said, he did go to Harrington Lake so is still a pathetic hypocrite.


----------



## Milkman

Controversial Louisiana pastor hosts Easter Sunday service for almost 1,500 people


----------



## davetcan

LOL, I thought we'd have heard a lot more about it. However we all remember where the political forum is, right?


----------



## tomee2

colchar said:


> The hypocrisy is strong in this one Obi-Wan:
> 
> 
> Trudeau family spends Easter weekend on Fogo Island, Newfoundland | CBC News


CBC news, dated March 26, 2016


----------



## Milkman

Yeah but hey, never pass up the chance to be a dickhead right?


----------



## tdotrob

tomee2 said:


> CBC news, dated March 26, 2016


Man this thread is pure comedy gold in the a.m w strong coffee and cigarettes.


----------



## JBFairthorne

Milkman said:


> I don't know that. It's hopeful / wishful thinking I guess.
> 
> I don't have any more of a crystal ball than any of us, but I don't want to rush back to "normal" prematurely and have a second explosion of cases.


Well as far as the information I’m getting is...we haven’t even gotten a first explosion of cases here yet. The last I heard, most of the hospitals are still waiting for a surge in cases that hasn’t happened yet. It’s a bit early to be worrying about a second explosion of cases.


----------



## Milkman

JBFairthorne said:


> Well as far as the information I’m getting is...we haven’t even gotten a first explosion of cases here yet. The last I heard, most of the hospitals are still waiting for a surge in cases that hasn’t happened yet. It’s a bit early to be worrying about a second explosion of cases.


I agree.

And in that case it's even MORE early to start considering going back to normal work, correct?


----------



## JBFairthorne

It’s easy to say wait and be patient when you’re the one still getting a paycheque.


----------



## tdotrob

If only there was a way for non-government entities to ease the burdens many are facing through no fault of their own.

One can only dream of such things.


----------



## Milkman

JBFairthorne said:


> It’s easy to say wait and be patient when you’re the one still getting a paycheque.


You shouldn't comment on what you don't know.

I may be getting a pay cheque, but two of my family are off work now and I support them.

I would rather be poor than dead, but hey, that's just me.


----------



## vadsy

tdotrob said:


> Man this thread is pure comedy gold in the a.m w strong coffee and cigarettes.


Love it, right? I think the mod just told someone to take religion to the political forum while his buddies post politics here


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Milkman said:


> I agree.
> 
> And in that case it's even MORE early to start considering going back to normal work, correct?


There will be no "normal" ever again. Certainly nothing you will recognize. Minimum 2 years before we even get rolling again.


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> Nope. Two different beasts. The swab-in-the-nose is cultured to see if virus grows. If the virus itself is measurable, you're infected. You might get better. You might get really sick before you get better. And a small percentage will not get better, ever. It lets you know who to hard-quarantine/isolate, and how many ICU beds and ventilators you might need in the coming days.
> 
> The blood-antibody test evaluates whether you have_* had*_ the virus, sometime in the past and successfully fought it off. Bear in mind that if the blood antibody test shows no evidence of the relevant antibodies, it means you are still fair game for the virus. The best result for the nation as a whole is that a VERY high percentage of those tested show _true_ evidence of antibodies, with no false positives (i.e., folks who come up showing antibodies, but in error), and no false negatives (i.e., people who show no evidence of antibodies, but actually have them). The desired result is that a significant share of the populace show dependable evidence of immunity...essentially what you'd aim for if all those folks who were supposed to get a flu shot every year actually did so.
> 
> The nose-swab is also better for contact-tracing purposes since it provides evidence of a current (hence recently contracted) infection, whereas given how much time it takes for antibodies to develop, just where/how you got infected may be difficult to ascertain. The two categories of test provide advantages for different sorts of societal objectives. "Getting back to normal" requires both types of test.


I know about each kind of test and so, is this a nose swab test? Seems those can provide false readings too. Not knocking pharmacists.....they are important....but from what I understand if the swab test isn't done exactly right it will at times give false readings. If you do the test yourself I can see a lot of false readings.....just as a test, how far do you think you can shove a q tip up your nose.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> Yes, I'm aware but we're talking about the difference of a few weeks not months.
> 
> Rushing things right now will cause deaths.
> 
> Depression won't likely kill me. Covid-19 might.


Depression might not kill you but there are a lot of borderline people out there who aren't as lucky.


----------



## Milkman

GuitarsCanada said:


> There will be no "normal" ever again. Certainly nothing you will recognize. Minimum 2 years before we even get rolling again.


Yes, I think you're right about that. Normal may never be the same. Our history will be written in two phases, pre and post-China Virus.


----------



## Milkman

Electraglide said:


> Depression might not kill you but there are a lot of borderline people out there who aren't as lucky.



Well if you think about it, even severely depressed individuals can be killed by the virus. I do not and would not ever imply that mental health issues are unimportant. I have my own.


----------



## Electraglide

keto said:


> I was going to make that point. Think about all the folks who are unable to pay rent, then their landlords can't pay their mortgages. Bank takes over the property at some point - yes, there's going to be or is a moratorium on evictions, but that's going to end at some point and A LOT of people are going to be out - landlord might have some sympathy, but the bank is always going to be 'pay or leave, by your choice or ours'.
> 
> Food banks are stressed now today, imagine in 3-4-6 months?
> 
> Supply chain continues to have little failures here and there, sooner or later they add up to a critical failure. Whether people walking out over fear, unable to work because sick, unable to deliver for one reason or another, the wealthy buying up or close by or government disallowing the movement of certain goods - it's happened with medical, what about when it starts happening with food?
> 
> We have to get back to work.
> 
> EDIT was to fix a couple small typos.


I'm not too sure if the food banks, meals on wheels, etc. here in calgary are up and running again. They closed in March.


----------



## Chito

Some are predicting no live concerts till the fall on next year.  

https://liveforlivemusic.com/news/bioethicist-nyt-coronavirus-concerts-fall-2021/


----------



## High/Deaf

There would be very few, if any, medical tests that are 100% accurate. False +ve and -ve tests are a part of the process, but if you don't know the percentage of false tests, it is a lot less useful. 

I would expect that any of those tests we are talking about that are providing false results are well into the 90% accuracy range, although I'm not hearing those numbers. I would really doubt they are a 50/50 type accuracy or they would have never got out the gate.



GuitarsCanada said:


> There will be no "normal" ever again. Certainly nothing you will recognize. Minimum 2 years before we even get rolling again.


Maybe the last century was a blip of 'abnormal' and now we are going back to the 'normal' of understanding that humans can be their own worst enemy. Many of our customs and interactions are illogical and downright dangerous. Will Italians or French still kiss both cheeks going forward? Will a handshake ever be a thing again? 

The massive amount of world travel with no sort of safeguards in place seems pretty foolish to me in retrospect. How could people not see something like this coming? Everyone from movie producers to one of the richest men in the world were putting out warnings for anyone who wanted to pay attention.


----------



## Doug Gifford

jimsz said:


> I wonder if it's in the best interest for a landlord to evict someone if they can't pay their rent? I mean, with so many people having lost their jobs, there may not be anyone available to rent the place and the landlord winds up footing the bill anyways.


The vacancy rate will be up as older people who live alone move to, ah, smaller accommodations. Landlords will be wise to not piss off their living tenants.


----------



## Milkman

Chito said:


> Some are predicting no live concerts till the fall on next year.
> 
> https://liveforlivemusic.com/news/bioethicist-nyt-coronavirus-concerts-fall-2021/


That preacher in Louisiana didn't get that memo. Not a concert but 1500 bodies in a room together.


----------



## keto

Doug Gifford said:


> The vacancy rate will be up as older people who live alone move to, ah, smaller accommodations. Landlords will be wise to not piss off their living tenants.


Likely more occupants per each rental space going forward as well. Sorta what you said, but broader than just the elderly.


----------



## keto

tdotrob said:


> Man this thread is pure comedy gold in the a.m w strong coffee and cigarettes.


I thought it was suspiciously quiet on the weekend.


----------



## High/Deaf

Doug Gifford said:


> The vacancy rate will be up as older people who live alone move to, ah, smaller accommodations. Landlords will be wise to not piss off their living tenants.


It's supply and demand. A lot of those landlords will just sell their rental property so the lack of demand will be countered by the reduced supply.


----------



## colchar

Milkman said:


> Yeah but hey, never pass up the chance to be a dickhead right?



I admitted the mistake, but he still went to Harrington Lake so he is still a hypocrite. I didn't realize that pointing out a politician's hypocrisy made one a dickhead. But I guess for some, any criticism of the boy prince makes one a dickhead.


----------



## Electraglide

tdotrob said:


> Man this thread is pure comedy gold in the a.m w strong coffee and cigarettes.


good thing I did my incometax return before I started to read these posts. Simple form my ass.


----------



## jimsz

keto said:


> Likely more occupants per each rental space going forward as well. Sorta what you said, but broader than just the elderly.


Exactly, say for example you have young folks renting houses and some or all of them loose their jobs and have to give up the house and move back in with their parents. That should really drive up the vacancies.


----------



## colchar

davetcan said:


> LOL, I thought we'd have heard a lot more about it. However we all remember where the political forum is, right?



When he is telling all of us to stay home (not just him, but all politicians) but is being a hypocrite, it bears talking about. And he just happens to be a politician, if a police chief (say Saunders) had taken off to his cottage I would have criticized him. So it is not, necessarily, political.


----------



## colchar

tomee2 said:


> CBC news, dated March 26, 2016



I pointed that out above. But he still went to Harrington Lake.


----------



## keto

jimsz said:


> Exactly, say for example you have young folks renting houses and some or all of them loose their jobs and have to give up the house and move back in with their parents. That should really drive up the vacancies.


Ever get over the bridge into Van downtown last few weeks? Had a customer tell me it's very bad, he thinks a lot of potential for rioting and looting in the not too distant future.


----------



## allthumbs56

JBFairthorne said:


> Well as far as the information I’m getting is...we haven’t even gotten a first explosion of cases here yet. The last I heard, most of the hospitals are still waiting for a surge in cases that hasn’t happened yet. It’s a bit early to be worrying about a second explosion of cases.


Yeah, I've been tracking Ontario since the beginning of the month. It's been pretty steady, 6,000 tests - 400 confirmed cases, give or take every day. Progress will be when I see 20,000 tests or better a day.


----------



## Electraglide

Seems like Ab. is flattening out and could be easing up on things fairly soon. And,
U of C researchers to begin hydroxychloroquine trial on COVID-19 patients


----------



## allthumbs56

Chito said:


> Some are predicting no live concerts till the fall on next year.
> 
> https://liveforlivemusic.com/news/bioethicist-nyt-coronavirus-concerts-fall-2021/


I was gonna retire from playing next spring - based on a healthy number of gigs this year. Now all booked gigs are canned and I'll bet that when the bars do reopen it's gonna be a bitch to get back on the rosters.

I surely didn't want to go out like this


----------



## Electraglide

keto said:


> Ever get over the bridge into Van downtown last few weeks? Had a customer tell me it's very bad, he thinks a lot of potential for rioting and looting in the not too distant future.


I have family and friends there that say things are not too bad.


----------



## Chito

allthumbs56 said:


> I was gonna retire from playing next spring - based on a healthy number of gigs this year. Now all booked gigs are canned and I'll bet that when the bars do reopen it's gonna be a bitch to get back on the rosters.
> 
> I surely don't want to go out like this


Guys in my band are already talking about when we could get back together. I don't see that happening in the next 2 months.  I think for now, live streaming is where it's at.


----------



## allthumbs56

Doug Gifford said:


> The vacancy rate will be up as older people who live alone move to, ah, smaller accommodations. Landlords will be wise to not piss off their living tenants.


Perhaps there'll be more seats available on the U.N. Security Council


----------



## Milkman

Chito said:


> Guys in my band are already talking about when we could get back together. I don't see that happening in the next 2 months.  I think for now, live streaming is where it's at.


Wow, maybe we're entering a period when the socially isolated and unfashionable will be able to gig again and enjoy it...…????


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> Well if you think about it, even severely depressed individuals can be killed by the virus. I do not and would not ever imply that mental health issues are unimportant. I have my own.


If they wait for the virus to come around. That being said, this woman could have some fairly heavy problems coming up. 
Coronavirus: Cambridge, Ont. woman arrested, accused of coughing on senior in Starbucks drive-thru 
during the aids thing people were getting two minus one for spitting on someone.....same charges.


----------



## High/Deaf

keto said:


> Ever get over the bridge into Van downtown last few weeks? Had a customer tell me it's very bad, he thinks a lot of potential for rioting and looting in the not too distant future.


I hardly go to Van anymore. I drove through downtown last Tuesday. East Hastings is 'tent city' for about 5 blocks - both sides of the sidewalk covered in tents. No sort of social distancing from what I could see. That was the only direct contact I've had, other than that Van may as well be in the Maritimes because most of what I know /see about it is from the media.

Nothing like that in the 'burbs, but this disease doesn't respect any border or class, including rich of poor. If they get it, it's still in 'our' society and will keep cycling and circulating. We need to work together more now than we've ever had before.


----------



## Electraglide

Doug Gifford said:


> The vacancy rate will be up as older people who live alone move to, ah, smaller accommodations. Landlords will be wise to not piss off their living tenants.


From what I've seen a lot of the "older people" here in Canada are/were in care places and not on the regular rental market. it's the 25 to 55 bracket who won't be renting.


----------



## jimsz

keto said:


> Ever get over the bridge into Van downtown last few weeks? Had a customer tell me it's very bad, he thinks a lot of potential for rioting and looting in the not too distant future.


I try and avoid downtown van and haven't been there since last year. I can definitely see your point on that one.


----------



## keto

Milkman said:


> Wow, maybe we're entering a period when the socially isolated and unfashionable will be able to gig again and enjoy it...…????


Nerds Untie!


----------



## Electraglide

High/Deaf said:


> I hardly go to Van anymore. I drove through downtown last Tuesday. East Hastings is 'tent city' for about 5 blocks - both sides of the sidewalk covered in tents. No sort of social distancing from what I could see. That was the only direct contact I've had, other than that Van may as well be in the Maritimes because most of what I know /see about it is from the media.
> 
> Nothing like that in the 'burbs, but this disease doesn't respect any border or class, including rich of poor. If they get it, it's still in 'our' society and will keep cycling and circulating. We need to work together more now than we've ever had before.


Downtown Victoria seems to be about the same for tent cities. Supposidly they've opened up some parks. I can see tent cities in Stanley Park like there was in the 70's when I worked there.


----------



## Electraglide

allthumbs56 said:


> Perhaps there'll be more seats available on the U.N. Security Council


Get another Lester B. in there again.


----------



## keto

Electraglide said:


> ................... Suppository they've opened up some parks. ..............


That is some powerful relaxant.

Meh, weak but couldnt resist. Back to scheduled programming


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> I know about each kind of test and so, is this a nose swab test? Seems those can provide false readings too. Not knocking pharmacists.....they are important....but from what I understand if the swab test isn't done exactly right it will at times give false readings. If you do the test yourself I can see a lot of false readings.....just as a test, how far do you think you can shove a q tip up your nose.


The one that everyone is so excited about and impatient for is a *blood* test. I gather not unlike a somewhat slower version of the finger-prick I do for blood sugar. The swab test should be done by a health professional. A bit like trying to cut your own hair, some things are hard to reach accurately yourself. You need someone who knows what to aim for and what constitutes a decent enough sample on the swab to produce a decent culture.


----------



## tdotrob

keto said:


> That is some powerful relaxant.
> 
> Meh, weak but couldnt resist. Back to scheduled programming


I had a good one about the fact his device autocorrects to suppository lines up w his posts or something like that....


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> The one that everyone is so excited about and impatient for is a *blood* test. I gather not unlike a somewhat slower version of the finger-prick I do for blood sugar. The swab test should be done by a health professional. A bit like trying to cut your own hair, some things are hard to reach accurately yourself. You need someone who knows what to aim for and what constitutes a decent enough sample on the swab to produce a decent culture.


From what I gather the test that's going to the drug stores now is a swab test. The blood test is simple and anyone can do it and get a fairly accurate result right away. Not too sure how long it will take to get the results from the "new" swab test unless you can buy one and take it home. If someone does it for you at a drug store and then it sits and they pile up I can see it taking a while for the results to come back.


----------



## Electraglide

keto said:


> That is some powerful relaxant.
> 
> Meh, weak but couldnt resist. Back to scheduled programming


thank you win 10 or where ever spell check. I'd almost say shove it.


----------



## keto

Government rolled out new physical distancing prototype today


----------



## jimsz

I heard an interview with Bernie Sanders from Bill Maher last week. Bernie thinks there should be some serious research into creating a technology that does instantaneous testing so that anyone who tests negative should be able to go back to work. So, each day, they come to work and before they get on public transportation or walk through any door, they get tested. Seems like a good idea but I think this is Star Trek technology that's probably a long way off.


----------



## tdotrob

jimsz said:


> I heard an interview with Bernie Sanders from Bill Maher last week. Bernie thinks there should be some serious research into creating a technology that does instantaneous testing so that anyone who tests negative should be able to go back to work. So, each day, they come to work and before they get on public transportation or walk through any door, they get tested. Seems like a good idea but I think this is Star Trek technology that's probably a long way off.


We should totally ask China do develop something like this for us and send over some of those temperature taking helmets while we are at it for the new police state.


----------



## davetcan

2 thumbs up for Jane.

Former MP Jane Philpott helps out at Markham facility facing COVID-19 staff walkout


----------



## Doug Gifford

Went for a walk with my wife & daughter. About an hour, wandered down to the waterfront and back. It was pouring rain but not cold -- enough to give the memory some teeth. Saw cars but no other walkers at all.


----------



## Distortion

keto said:


> Ever get over the bridge into Van downtown last few weeks? Had a customer tell me it's very bad, he thinks a lot of potential for rioting and looting in the not too distant future.


I understand the unrest out west . Not nearly as destructive out there number wise. But if this thing got going in Vancouver locals would be changing their minds. Detroit was not even on the map a week ago as a problem city and all of a sudden it has more deaths than Canada . This virus is highly contagious and a place like Vancouver would get slaughtered. It loves dense populations.


----------



## Electraglide

A little something about these new "rapid" tests. Not too sure if this was the one posted.
Health Canada approves new rapid COVID-testing kits
Seems like Ont. Que and Ab. are getting them for now. Also says each handheld anlyzer can process 10 to 15 tests a day. They're shipping what, 250 analyzers?


----------



## allthumbs56

Electraglide said:


> A little something about these new "rapid" tests. Not too sure if this was the one posted.
> Health Canada approves new rapid COVID-testing kits
> Seems like Ont. Que and Ab. are getting them for now. Also says each handheld anlyzer can process 10 to 15 tests a day. *They're shipping what, 250 analyzers*?


Like 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean - it's a start 

(with appologies to Wardo)


----------



## Electraglide

allthumbs56 said:


> Like 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean - it's a start
> 
> (with appologies to Wardo)


Yup.....just keep adding more lawyers....especially divorce ones. I know every little bit helps but I can see lineups out the door at a lot of drug stores. Not too sure if this service is going to be free either but it will give unemployed pharmacy workers a job.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Well, politicians of all stripes are part of the do as I say and not as I do bunch.

Scheer and family joined other MPs on packed flight to Ottawa, ignoring social distancing rules | CBC News


----------



## allthumbs56

Electraglide said:


> A little something about these new "rapid" tests. Not too sure if this was the one posted.
> Health Canada approves new rapid COVID-testing kits
> Seems like Ont. Que and Ab. are getting them for now. Also says each handheld anlyzer can process 10 to 15 tests a day. *They're shipping what, 250 analyzers*?


Like 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean, it's a start 

Appologies to Wardo


Jim DaddyO said:


> Well, politicians of all stripes are part of the do as I say and not as I do bunch.
> 
> Scheer and family joined other MPs on packed flight to Ottawa, ignoring social distancing rules | CBC News


It would be ironic if they all came down with Covid.


----------



## keto

I have *no clue* how reliable this source is, I just came across it. Makes sense to me, but then I probably have confirmation bias. Beyond age, the single biggest factor leading to covid hospitalization is obesity. Another member in another thread listed a bunch of headlines of younger victims with 'no underlying conditions', but from the pictures in a few of them, obesity was very obviously not considered.

NYU scientists: Largest US study of COVID-19 finds obesity the single biggest 'chronic' factor in New York City's hospitalizations | ZDNet


----------



## mhammer

Just heard an item on CBC radio about a rapid test developed in Canada (in suburban Ottawa, actually). While I am assuming that the rapid tests we know about identify the presence of some quantum of specific _antibody_, the developer - at least in the brief snippet they played - was talking about how quickly this test was able to recognize the DNA (more here: Quick, portable and made-in-Canada: Rapid COVID-19 test kits approved, shipping out | CBC News ). What's not clear is whether this is the molecular recognition of antibodies or recognition of the virus itself. If it was able to spot the virus (and there is no mention of antibodies in the piece), without need to culture a swab sample and wait, that would really be something. It still doesn't process as many people-per-hour as the baggage check at Pearson or the cashier at Loblaws, but it works a _helluva_ lot faster than the poke-yer-nose-and-wait-a-few-days method. Could be a game changer. 



keto said:


> I have *no clue* how reliable this source is, I just came across it. Makes sense to me, but then I probably have confirmation bias. Beyond age, the single biggest factor leading to covid hospitalization is obesity. Another member in another thread listed a bunch of headlines of younger victims with 'no underlying conditions', but from the pictures in a few of them, obesity was very obviously not considered.
> 
> NYU scientists: Largest US study of COVID-19 finds obesity the single biggest 'chronic' factor in New York City's hospitalizations | ZDNet


Ziff-Davis is a large publisher, and has a reputation to protect (I think they even published Popular Electronics back in the day). The piece has a great many disclaimers and qualifiers listed, in addition to a change in title and the reasons for doing that, so they are not posting it as something to be taken at absolute face value. But insomuch as the principle symptoms of the disease are respiratory, it shouldn't surprise one that other chronic health challenges that would normally lead to much huffing and puffing at the top of the stairs, are also risk factors. Lung capacity declines with age, as well as with above-normal weight.


----------



## Ship of fools

Not sure 30 kilometers 9( sussex to harrington lake )is that big of a deal so forget about it. And what the F are they talking about in Vancouver nobody is ready to riot or anything else for that matter.
And Keto that has to be the stupidest study I have seen so far yep some were big and some were small but that gave me the biggest laugh of them all. Here in BC it seems that they come in all sorts of sizes.
From what my daughter told me was that they have to stick that swap all the way to the back of your throat to get an accurate reading. As for the new testing lets hope it helps.


----------



## Wardo

keto said:


> Government rolled out new physical distancing prototype today


Some of the places he's walking through look like a third world shit hole. 

That vid would have been better if someone started smackin him around .. lol


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Never heard of this news source before, so I can't guarantee it's reliability.

McMaster researchers developing COVID-19 test that can be self-administered at home


----------



## tdotrob

Jim DaddyO said:


> Never heard of this news source before, so I can't guarantee it's reliability.
> 
> McMaster researchers developing COVID-19 test that can be self-administered at home


Source doesn’t matter, you can also choose to change whatever you want to fit your own narrative. It’s easy!


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> Just heard an item on CBC radio about a rapid test developed in Canada (in suburban Ottawa, actually). While I am assuming that the rapid tests we know about identify the presence of some quantum of specific _antibody_, the developer - at least in the brief snippet they played - was talking about how quickly this test was able to recognize the DNA (more here: Quick, portable and made-in-Canada: Rapid COVID-19 test kits approved, shipping out | CBC News ). What's not clear is whether this is the molecular recognition of antibodies or recognition of the virus itself. If it was able to spot the virus (and there is no mention of antibodies in the piece), without need to culture a swab sample and wait, that would really be something. It still doesn't process as many people-per-hour as the baggage check at Pearson or the cashier at Loblaws, but it works a _helluva_ lot faster than the poke-yer-nose-and-wait-a-few-days method. Could be a game changer.
> 
> 
> Ziff-Davis is a large publisher, and has a reputation to protect (I think they even published Popular Electronics back in the day). The piece has a great many disclaimers and qualifiers listed, in addition to a change in title and the reasons for doing that, so they are not posting it as something to be taken at absolute face value. But insomuch as the principle symptoms of the disease are respiratory, it shouldn't surprise one that other chronic health challenges that would normally lead to much huffing and puffing at the top of the stairs, are also risk factors. Lung capacity declines with age, as well as with above-normal weight.


It's a swab test.....throat or nose. Looks for the virus and not antibodies from what I've read. It's faster on a one to one aspect but in the end game it's about the same speed....10 to 15 a day so say you have 100 people line up at your local Shoppers....that's what 8 to 10 days worth. On top of what's being done right now it helps a bit. Personally I wouldn't want to be the pharmacist who does the throat swab.


----------



## Electraglide

Wardo said:


> Some of the places he's walking through look like a third world shit hole.
> 
> That vid would have been better if someone started smackin him around .. lol


velcome to toronto. be interesting if he got snagged on a city bus.


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> It's a swab test.....throat or nose. Looks for the virus and not antibodies from what I've read. It's faster on a one to one aspect but in the end game it's about the same speed....10 to 15 a day so say you have 100 people line up at your local Shoppers....that's what 8 to 10 days worth. On top of what's being done right now it helps a bit. Personally I wouldn't want to be the pharmacist who does the throat swab.


I heard the developer say a little more, and he pointed out one advantage that I hadn't considered, and that is that it makes rapid testing for smaller and rural communities possible. Normally, he pointed out, the swab would have to be sent off to the city for culturing in order to get results. Having a local machine that can do the analysis means that folks in small and remote places can find out much quicker. For a nation like ours, with so many people living a distance away from major urban centers, that's a real plus.


----------



## oldjoat

Ship of fools said:


> Not sure 30 kilometers ( sussex to harrington lake )is that big of a deal so forget about it.


not quite ... he tells everyone to stay home and has everyone distance themselves in the house of commons .
yet he dashes across the "closed border bridges" to go to quebec 
regular schmucks trying to get to the "cottage " get turned away by the quebec police force 
2 sets of rules again ... 

of course he's also trailing the parade of security details in various vehicles too....

they should have stopped him on the bridge and told him to go back to ottawa . 
( he WAS in contact with a known covid-19 person and should be banned from travel )


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> I heard the developer say a little more, and he pointed out one advantage that I hadn't considered, and that is that it makes rapid testing for smaller and rural communities possible. Normally, he pointed out, the swab would have to be sent off to the city for culturing in order to get results. Having a local machine that can do the analysis means that folks in small and remote places can find out much quicker. For a nation like ours, with so many people living a distance away from major urban centers, that's a real plus.


For smaller places it's great but hopefully they'll get out more testing units. I read in a link that was posted earlier that only 250 units were being sent out.


----------



## laristotle

As Congo battles COVID-19, deadly Ebola virus re-emerges

_BENI — Democratic Republic of Congo recorded a second Ebola death in days following more than seven weeks without a new case, the World Health Organization said on Sunday.

Congo had been due on Sunday to mark an end to the second-deadliest outbreak of the virus on record, until a case was confirmed on Friday in the eastern city of Beni.

The outbreak has killed more than 2,200 people since August 2018 in an area of the country where militia violence hobbled efforts to contain it.

The latest Ebola victim was an 11-month-old girl, who was treated at the same health centre as the previous case, a 26-year-old electrician, said Boubacar Diallo, deputy incident manager for the WHO’s Ebola response.

Officials say it is not yet clear how the electrician contracted Ebola. He had no known contacts with other Ebola patients and was not a survivor of the virus who could have relapsed, the government said on Friday.

On Saturday, a group of angry young men threw stones at a team of WHO workers and Beni’s deputy mayor as they attempted to decontaminate the electrician’s home and trace his contacts, Diallo said.

“For them Ebola is over,” he told Reuters. “People here have some problems understanding how this case just came two days before the declaration of the end,” Diallo said.

The deputy mayor was forced to abandon his car and escape by motorbike taxi, said Kambale Sabuni, head of the police in Beni._


----------



## Dorian2

Deena Hinshaw explains a few things here. Alberta's expanding testing and a bit more. She's really easy to listen to as well. **decided not to put smart alec Mr. Rogers quip about the leader of our Nation here** wait. wut


----------



## Electraglide

oldjoat said:


> not quite ... he tells everyone to stay home and has everyone distance themselves in the house of commons .
> yet he dashes across the "closed border bridges" to go to quebec
> regular schmucks trying to get to the "cottage " get turned away by the quebec police force
> 2 sets of rules again ...
> 
> of course he's also trailing the parade of security details in various vehicles too....
> 
> they should have stopped him on the bridge and told him to go back to ottawa .
> ( he WAS in contact with a known covid-19 person and should be banned from travel )


Hasn't he been in quarantine or what ever you want to call it for more than two weeks.....same with his wife and kids. He probably gets tested every once in a while too same with them. Wouldn't the press and others just love it if he tested positive at any time.....that would be grounds to call for an erection....I mean election if it brought a vote of non-confidence. Some might not agree but I figure his job is as essential as liquor and beer stores and pot shops.


----------



## laristotle

What about his entourage?


----------



## jimsz

City of Vancouver Mayor Kennedy Stewart says city at risk of bankruptcy. Provincial government denies $200M to help operating costs.


----------



## oldjoat

most municipalities within que have enacted no travel across boundaries ( within the province itself ) by anyone ...
but the rules don't apply to sock boy.

follow the rules people ... but they don't apply to me.


----------



## Electraglide

laristotle said:


> What about his entourage?


Goes with the job.


----------



## tdotrob

jimsz said:


> City of Vancouver Mayor Kennedy Stewart says city at risk of bankruptcy. Provincial government denies $200M to help operating costs.


Man even the major cities live paycheque to paycheque.


----------



## davetcan

mhammer said:


> I heard the developer say a little more, and he pointed out one advantage that I hadn't considered, and that is that it makes rapid testing for smaller and rural communities possible. Normally, he pointed out, the swab would have to be sent off to the city for culturing in order to get results. Having a local machine that can do the analysis means that folks in small and remote places can find out much quicker. For a nation like ours, with so many people living a distance away from major urban centers, that's a real plus.


I watched the full interview on Power Play. Machine was originally designed to test DNA but has been reconfigured to test for the virus. Swab can be taken from front of nose or back of throat, much easier, test results are 100% accuracy. Results in less than 1 hour with no need to send off to lab. The other beauty of it is that once you've made the initial purchase it's a simple thing to reconfigure to check for other virus, such as if Covid-19 mutates, no need to buy a whole new kit. Superb bit of engineering in my book!


----------



## oldjoat

tdotrob said:


> Man even the major cities live paycheque to paycheque.


gotta love deficit spending during goods times mentality ....


----------



## Electraglide

davetcan said:


> I watched the full interview on Power Play. Machine was originally designed to test DNA but has been reconfigured to test for the virus. Swab can be taken from front of nose or back of throat, much easier, test results are 100% accuracy. Results in less than 1 hour with no need to send off to lab. The other beauty of it is that once you've made the initial purchase it's a simple thing to reconfigure to check for other virus, such as if Covid-19 mutates, no need to buy a whole new kit. Superb bit of engineering in my book!


It's a good idea just not enough of them. Hopefully they don't give false results at times. Also hopefully they adapt them so the can give test results for a lot more in a day.


----------



## keto

oldjoat said:


> gotta love deficit spending during goods times mentality ....


I don’t know about BC but Alberta cities literally can not run a deficit. Raise $ or cut spending, period.


----------



## davetcan

Electraglide said:


> It's a good idea just not enough of them. Hopefully they don't give false results at times. Also hopefully they adapt them so the can give test results for a lot more in a day.


I think that will come. As for quantities I think he was talking about thousands per week. He's also turned down all offers from other countries until Canada has what it needs.


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> It's a good idea just not enough of them. Hopefully they don't give false results at times. Also hopefully they adapt them so the can give test results for a lot more in a day.


They're working day and night to produce the units. Now, they could probably crank out a LOT more if the work and plans were handed off to other facilities, working in parallel. But then the issue of protecting IP comes into it. Masks is one thing. Hi-tech that recognizes DNA patterns is quite another. As the developer mentioned, the information in the swab that the unit looks for is provided by CDC. Nonetheless, an impressive contribution to public health.

When my wife worked at the U of A hospital as a lab technologist (on the shit-and-spit crew as they were called), 35 years back, she'd do rounds every day and take blood samples from a wide array of patients, including newborns (via heel-pokes). The blood samples, which were quite small, went into these little credit-card affairs that had six sections where the blood sample pooled up into separate samples. The cards went into a machine which then scanned for a sextet of communicable diseases the hospital wanted to be on top of. You wouldn't think that every baby born in that hospital would be screened for syphilis, but there you go. Not that they suspected babies of having syph, but it was an automated process that automatically checked for those 6 diseases.

In the intervening 35 years, many aspects of clinical screening have made huge strides.


----------



## mhammer

davetcan said:


> I think that will come. As for quantities I think he was talking about thousands per week. He's also turned down all offers from other countries until Canada has what it needs.


I hope there's an Order of Canada for the developer, down the line. He's earned it.


----------



## Electraglide

davetcan said:


> I think that will come. As for quantities I think he was talking about thousands per week. He's also turned down all offers from other countries until Canada has what it needs.


Thousands and thousands of tests but not units......only 250 of those so far.


----------



## davetcan

Electraglide said:


> Thousands and thousands of tests but not units......only 250 of those so far.


He was talking about thousands of units. Production is already ramping up, let's remember he only received approval yesterday. Or was it today?


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> They're working day and night to produce the units. Now, they could probably crank out a LOT more if the work and plans were handed off to other facilities, working in parallel. But then the issue of protecting IP comes into it. Masks is one thing. Hi-tech that recognizes DNA patterns is quite another. As the developer mentioned, the information in the swab that the unit looks for is provided by CDC. Nonetheless, an impressive contribution to public health.
> 
> When my wife worked at the U of A hospital as a lab technologist (on the shit-and-spit crew as they were called), 35 years back, she'd do rounds every day and take blood samples from a wide array of patients, including newborns (via heel-pokes). The blood samples, which were quite small, went into these little credit-card affairs that had six sections where the blood sample pooled up into separate samples. The cards went into a machine which then scanned for a sextet of communicable diseases the hospital wanted to be on top of. You wouldn't think that every baby born in that hospital would be screened for syphilis, but there you go. Not that they suspected babies of having syph, but it was an automated process that automatically checked for those 6 diseases.
> 
> In the intervening 35 years, many aspects of clinical screening have made huge strides.


They've been testing kids for the drip for years.....one of those passed from the mother things. I do believe they were doing that when I was born. I now the last couple of blood tests I had the doc had the results the next morning and they were not the prick the finger or heel types either. It should be handed off to other Canadian facilities. The tech has been out there for quite a while and I'm not sure what IP is but there are probably quite a few places that could make the testing unites so they can get a hell of a lot out there and possibly speed up the testing times.


----------



## Electraglide

davetcan said:


> He was talking about thousands of units. Production is already ramping up, let's remember he only received approval yesterday. Or was it today?


I took it to be tests but thousands of units would be good. Ab has ordered 250.


----------



## davetcan

Power Play: Feds approve portable COVID-19 test

Here's the full interview, you have to sit thru one commercial.


----------



## Electraglide

davetcan said:


> Power Play: Feds approve portable COVID-19 test
> 
> Here's the full interview, you have to sit thru one commercial.


No commercial that I saw and I still take it that he's talking about a hell of a lot of tests, not units.....mentioned the device as a unit but never said how many they are making. I hope it's enough but I doubt that they are cheap. 100,000 test and 250 units cost Ab $10,000,000 I think he said. Ain't cheap. Doing the math 4,000 tests per unit cost what $40,000? Anyway good luck to them.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Smart article.

Why smart people believe coronavirus myths


----------



## vadsy




----------



## Milkman

The latest I've heard is that we (my office) will be working from home for two more weeks (so far) which is April 27, but we've moved our return to work date each week since we went into hiding.

I just received a reminder from my MS Outlook telling me today is the start of one of my major annual conferences (which has naturally been cancelled) down in Columbus, Ohio. This (April ~ May) is the season I usually have conferences at all of our major Japanese customers. That's because the Japanese fiscal calendar, which they call a ki is April 1 ~ March 31.

It's a nice season for me with low pressure business trips (lots of schmoozing but no real work) which I enjoy as a bit of a break from the high pressure stuff.

Not this year.


----------



## mhammer

Hard not to think of this prescient tune from the Flaming Lips.


----------



## mhammer

Milkman said:


> The latest I've heard is that we (my office) will be working from home for two more weeks (so far) which is April 27, but we've moved our return to work date each week since we went into hiding.
> 
> I just received a reminder from my MS Outlook telling me today is the start of one of my major annual conferences (which has naturally been cancelled) down in Columbus, Ohio. This (April ~ May) is the season I usually have conferences at all of our major Japanese customers. That's because the Japanese fiscal calendar, which they call a ki is April 1 ~ March 31.
> 
> It's a nice season for me with low pressure business trips (lots of schmoozing but no real work) which I enjoy as a bit of a break from the high pressure stuff.
> 
> Not this year.


I was hoping to drive down to Nashville for Summer NAMM in early July. But it's been cancelled. Not so much because they expect lockdown until then, but simply because the amount of lead time needed to put it on is greater than the time between now and July. Maybe next year.


----------



## MarkM

vadsy said:


>


I have been waiting for this to happen, hopefully it doesn't the end further!

I can tell you that by the way they are dressed it's no where near where I live!


----------



## Milkman

Duplicate post (wicked lag in the speed of this site today)


----------



## Milkman

mhammer said:


> I was hoping to drive down to Nashville for Summer NAMM in early July. But it's been cancelled. Not so much because they expect lockdown until then, but simply because the amount of lead time needed to put it on is greater than the time between now and July. Maybe next year.



I think my personal level of fear would require me to wear a complete Haz Mat suit if I was to be in a crowd of people in July, ESPECIALLY south of the border.

I'm not a statistician but if we're roughly 1/10th the population of the US, you should expect similar percentages of infected / deaths (x 10).

My math tells me things are approximately three times as bad down there factoring in the population differences.

Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases


----------



## mhammer

Milkman said:


> I think my personal level of fear would require me to wear a complete Haz Mat suit if I was to be in a crowd of people in July, ESPECIALLY south of the border.
> 
> I'm not a statistician but if we're roughly 1/10th the population of the US, you should expect similar percentages of infected / deaths (x 10).
> 
> My math tells me things are approximately three times as bad down there factoring in the population differences.
> 
> Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases


Yes. Since we were down under 20 deaths or so, the mortality rate per-capita in the U.S. has been 3-4 times greater than in Canada, every step of the way. And to my surprise, we have not "caught up" with the U.S. That is, the difference in per-capita mortality rates is not simply because "our" deaths came later, or because of reporting differences that underestimated our mortality rate.

It is difficult to know what to attribute this to. Some would say it is a difference of population density. Canada's pop. density is a tiny fraction of the USA. But let's ignore the vast northern expanses that cause that difference in density, and focus on the major urban areas where the most deaths and cases have occurred. Is there a difference in density between the GTA and much of the U.S. eastern seaboard? Or between Vancouver and Seattle? I think not. What HAS been in evidence - and again, I do not attribute the difference in mortality solely to this - is the high degree of federal/provincial cooperation in Canada, compared to the federal/state coordination down south. Provincial leaders that might have traditionally been all too willing to rip Ottawa a new one have been working together in surprisingly and pleasingly civil fashion. Part of that I suppose is the difference between having 10 provinces, compared to 50 states. Herding more cats is harder than herding fewer. I think another part may be a result of having medicare for all. Keep in mind that they had to _legislate_ cost-coverage of testing, where we had costs covered all along. I say this not knowing how many fatalities resulted from tardy diagnosis, so it is mere speculation on my part.

Perhaps when the post-game analysis eventually comes along, we will learn that the national differences in mortality rate stemmed from factors that none of us, perhaps at ANY level of power or expertise, realized or anticipated. Life is unfortunately like that.


----------



## davetcan

_Alberta may circumvent Health Canada to gain access to COVID-19 tests and drugs, premier says | CBC News

On Monday, Kenney said products approved by European or American health regulators should be available for use in Alberta even while awaiting Health Canada's approval.

"The direction I've given our officials is if we see a highly credible regulator, medications in a peer jurisdiction like the European Union, Australia or the United States that has approved a test or a vaccine or medication, we should pursue that," he said on CBC's Power and Politics. "We should not wait for Health Canada to catch up."_


----------



## Ship of fools

Yep those idiots were in BC my thoughts arrest the stupid fuckers for putting a child in harms way. As for Vancouver I don not understand why he just doesn't dip into the reserve fund that they have and yet he said he will not touch it. And they are not allowed to run a deficit. I kind of think it maybe a way for them to justify selling some properties that they have. Like the properties they have around little mountain that was suppose to have social housing built 20 years ago after they tore down the housing that was there before.A very large chunk of land but at this time would be sold as a fire sale I would imagine a;long with other lands throughout Vancouver.
And lets all hope that these new test kits work and are available sooner then later to ease the minds of so many.
And Electraglide did you not sign up for {{$root.currentState.locale == $root.LOCALE.BC? "my ehealth" : "my results"}}™: {{currentState.pageTitle | translate}} I get my results from them in 4 hours.


----------



## tomee2

davetcan said:


> I watched the full interview on Power Play. Machine was originally designed to test DNA but has been reconfigured to test for the virus. Swab can be taken from front of nose or back of throat, much easier, test results are 100% accuracy. Results in less than 1 hour with no need to send off to lab. The other beauty of it is that once you've made the initial purchase it's a simple thing to reconfigure to check for other virus, such as if Covid-19 mutates, no need to buy a whole new kit. Superb bit of engineering in my book!


I don't know, I guess I'm in the 'too good to be true' crowd... I remember how quickly 100mpg carburetors suddenly appeared when oil prices spiked in the 70s... really, a one hour test, 100% accurate, using a little machine that can be reconfigured at will?


----------



## davetcan

What's the alternative? Continue to do nothing or wait until someone else develops a machine that we can't buy due to demand? The only province to get ahead of the PPE demand was Alberta. If we fail to to get ahead of testing equipment or new meds then we'll be playing catch up forever. If peoples lives weren't at stake we could afford to be more cautious. It's only my opinion, fortunately perhaps, but I think we need to be as aggressive as possible attacking this thing.


----------



## tomee2

Just make sure the machine does what they claim it can do. Due diligence before sending money, that sort of thing. This isn't like ordering 2 million N95 masks that are proven technology and have been in production for a long time ... this is a new thing. If it's for real, then great, order one for every hospital, retirement home and school in the country.


----------



## davetcan

Isn't that what Health Canada did?


----------



## boyscout

davetcan said:


> I watched the full interview on Power Play. Machine was originally designed to test DNA but has been reconfigured to test for the virus. Swab can be taken from front of nose or back of throat, much easier, test results are 100% accuracy. Results in less than 1 hour with no need to send off to lab. The other beauty of it is that once you've made the initial purchase it's a simple thing to reconfigure to check for other virus, such as if Covid-19 mutates, no need to buy a whole new kit. Superb bit of engineering in my book!


Clever indeed, but in the exuberance about this development aren't we missing something?

The head of Spartan Bioscience is talking about "ramping up" to producing as many as 1.5 million test kits per month. However I haven't seen any report indicating how many of the *machines* necessary to use those tests the company can produce.

Reports have indicated that 250 machines exist now, most/all of them already purchased by Alberta and Ontario. That's great, but assuming 100% utilization of those machines (very unlikely) that's 250 tests per hour, 6,000 tests per day, 42,000 tests per week. In a country of almost 38 million people it would take over 17 years to test everyone, once. Until there's a vaccination for this thing testing more than once will often be required.

Spartan's is an exciting development, great that it's a Canadian development, wonderful that Spartan is promising to serve Canadians' needs first, and of course the numbers above will improve in time as machine availability improves. However our worst experience with this virus will (hopefully) be in the next month or two. I'm just guessing, but doesn't it seem unlikely in that time frame that Spartan can produce enough machines to make more than a dent in our huge testing problem?

The best tool for dealing with this or any virus is testing, knowing who is sick and quarantining them. Testing many times more people per week and legally quarantining those with the virus is the only way to avoid prolonged lock downs of all of us, until there is a vaccination. However I fear that the federal government knows that its abject failure to meet testing requirements is going to be prolonged and that's why it's mobilizing our armed forces to keep us locked down until the fall or longer, as models recently offered by Dr. Theresa Tam indicate will be required. Although she has been wrong in much of the advice she has given us, the current government is continuing to take her advice.

To date we have had 780 deaths from the virus. The most optimistic projections in her model are that we'll have at least 10,000 more with a good possibility of 20,000 more, and those are the numbers *with* prolonged months-long lockdowns. Compare that to South Korea, stabilized now with a death toll of (today) 222, in a population of 52 million (37% larger than Canada's) or to other countries that have and will suffer very considerably less than Canada from this pandemic.

It's not "political" to say that this crisis has revealed a HUGE failure of government. Under a succession of political masters, the federal bureaucracy has failed and is failing at it's most basic task: protecting and preserving conditions under which Canadians can live and work to fill their lives as they determine they should be. 

Since the cost of that failure is already significant and may be devastating for virtually every Canadian (except, notably, government workers still enjoying full employment, full pay, and secure comfortable pensions) those defending the bureaucracy and its failings must be suspected of having something to gain by doing so. The Spartan Bioscience testing system is not going to save us.


----------



## davetcan

I agree with all of the above but we also have to start somewhere  The other thing to consider is that many people are predicting a 2nd and potentially 3rd wave of this virus. That may well happen prior to any vaccine being developed. Given that those circumstances will be months away the machines produced in the interim could certainly prove invaluable. All of this assuming something better/cheaper/quicker doesn't come along first. I suspect it will.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

davetcan said:


> The other thing to consider is that many people are predicting a 2nd and potentially 3rd wave of this virus.


I think you are correct.

COVID-19 China: Nation fights second wave of resurgent virus as cases grow


----------



## mhammer

Patience will be as significant a factor in beating this as anything.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

davetcan said:


> What's the alternative? Continue to do nothing or wait until someone else develops a machine that we can't buy due to demand? The only province to get ahead of the PPE demand was Alberta. If we fail to to get ahead of testing equipment or new meds then we'll be playing catch up forever. If peoples lives weren't at stake we could afford to be more cautious. It's only my opinion, fortunately perhaps, but I think we need to be as aggressive as possible attacking this thing.


Paranoia is also starting to creep in. I see this getting much worse if things continue on as they have been. I went to grocery store the other day. I was still only 1 of 2 people in the store wearing a mask. Funny thing is everyone treated me like a leper. I guess they figure if I am wearing a mask that I am sick. I also had to wait for 10 minutes while some fuck head fondled every single green and red pepper in the entire store before he picked a few out. Oblivious to anyone else around him. Some old hag came in and they had to restrain her for a few minutes and get her to wipe her hands down etc, which is something they are doing to everyone. Again, totally oblivious to whats going on in the world around them. Right now I loath having to go out of the house and deal with these morons, it was bad enough before the pandemic.


----------



## Wardo

GuitarsCanada said:


> . ... Right now I loath having to go out of the house and deal with these morons, it was bad enough before the pandemic.


Same.


----------



## guitarman2

GuitarsCanada said:


> Paranoia is also starting to creep in. I see this getting much worse if things continue on as they have been. I went to grocery store the other day. I was still only 1 of 2 people in the store wearing a mask. Funny thing is everyone treated me like a leper. I guess they figure if I am wearing a mask that I am sick. *I also had to wait for 10 minutes while some fuck head fondled every single green and red pepper in the entire store before he picked a few out. *Oblivious to anyone else around him. Some old hag came in and they had to restrain her for a few minutes and get her to wipe her hands down etc, which is something they are doing to everyone. Again, totally oblivious to whats going on in the world around them. Right now I loath having to go out of the house and deal with these morons, it was bad enough before the pandemic.


I don't have a problem with people touching all the fresh produce. Its going to happen. I wash all my fresh produce with vegetable spray and wash. It suds up real good like you're washing your hands and thats supposed to be more effective than hand sanitizer.


----------



## mhammer

I went to a Freshco yesterday. They insisted that only one customer could enter for every customer emerging. Sanitizer and a roll of paper towels was available for cleaning off the handles of shopping carts at the entrance, and hand-washing station once inside. Most, though not all, customers wore masks. I wore disposable gloves, but make a point of taking one of the thin plastic bags on a roll as a 2nd layer of "protection" on top of that when sifting through produce. Not to protect me, as much as to not subject others to my manhandling of the peppers, oranges and celery.

Apart from sanitizer, it seems the new growth industry is those social-distancing stickers on the floor of grocery stores and similar. At the Dollarama yesterday, they had their own proprietary spacing stickers on the floor by the checkout with the Dollarama name on them, and the corporate colour scheme. The local Loblaws has "direction" stickers on the floor of the aisles as well, to reduce shoppers passing too close to each other.


----------



## allthumbs56

davetcan said:


> I agree with all of the above but we also have to start somewhere  The other thing to consider is that many people are predicting a 2nd and potentially 3rd wave of this virus. That may well happen prior to any vaccine being developed. Given that those circumstances will be months away the machines produced in the interim could certainly prove invaluable. All of this assuming something better/cheaper/quicker doesn't come along first. I suspect it will.


I wonder why we're not reconfiguring all the airport drug sniffer dogs to spot the virus. That'd be a great solution


----------



## Ship of fools

Hate going to senior shopping time they are so freakin grumpy. Went to Costco this morning was suppose to open at 8 got there at 7:25 and the doors were open and thank goodness was let in right away and no lining up. Got my toilet paper ( dang only 2 ply ) and my bottled water and of course some outdoor plants need color at this time in life.
Watching CNN and watched a farmer tractor in his field of squash and heard them say that Mexico is selling them so cheap and the lack of demand, which I have to wonder about.Its kind of like the milk situation here dumping milk because of lack of demand. What happened to all the kids did they stop drinking milk heck I drink 4 liters ever 3-4 days. And Gasoline well my son in law delivers gas to stations and he mentioned that they are only filling their tanks half full because the price is so cheap and they are waiting for it to jump up so they can charge more.
I have to say it makes me wonder just how many makers are holding back supplies to create a larger demand like with toilet paper all of a sudden I cannot buy 3 ply anymore why. Oh well I guess I just have to suck it up like everyone else and cook some more.later dudes


----------



## Ship of fools

I know they have dog at VGH that sniffs out bacteria and they use him to help keep rooms clean from bugs.


----------



## mhammer

Ship of fools said:


> I know they have dog at VGH that sniffs out bacteria and they use him to help keep rooms clean from bugs.


As sensitive as dog noses can be, and as highly trainable as they are, sniffing out someone who is "sick" in some particular way, and sniffing out someone who is potentially contagious but not especially disease-ridden, may be two tasks of several orders of magnitude different. I don't know that they are or aren't. But even sniffer dogs have their limits.


----------



## High/Deaf

Distortion said:


> I understand the unrest out west . Not nearly as destructive out there number wise. But if this thing got going in Vancouver locals would be changing their minds. Detroit was not even on the map a week ago as a problem city and all of a sudden it has more deaths than Canada . This virus is highly contagious and a place like Vancouver would get slaughtered. It loves dense populations.


I don't know where you get your news but that is so inaccurate as to be probably made up by the Onion. 


BC had the first case of this virus in Canada. 

We've been dealing with this and fighting it the longest in Canada.

Our govt and PHO recognized early on the seriousness of the situation and acted quickly and decisively. We are still leading the country with things like an actual quarantine act. 

Minister Dix pushed the feds for things like closing down borders, including being critical of not closing the US border quick enough.

It's not like we're sitting around waiting for this thing to "get going in Vancouver". What a ridiculous comment.

It's obvious to me that whoever supplied your information has no idea how virus' work. It didn't go through BC while somehow skirting Vancouver. It hit Vancouver in late Feb and they've been fighting it ever since. But fighting it smart. And it's working. 

Not luck. Not standing around and waiting for it. Hard work by medical professionals and other support people. And sacrifice by a large majority of the population, isolating and giving up social outings and travel. Too bad none of that makes it onto your news channel.

Not to say there won't be a bigger outbreak in Vancouver. This virus is still alive and spreading it requires continued vigilance and effort, but we are showing that the vigilance and effort work.


----------



## High/Deaf

jimsz said:


> City of Vancouver Mayor Kennedy Stewart says city at risk of bankruptcy. Provincial government denies $200M to help operating costs.


Consider the source. The NDP weren't far enough left for him. As socialist as socialist can be.

He believes govt should pay for everything. And apparently in some sort of top down strategy. So the feds pay down to the provinces and cities. And the provinces pay down to the cities, too. So much money out there, and it's all free. We should all be getting more and more of it from our govts. They don't give nearly enough away, we need MORE, MORE, MORE!

Someone should ask him if he knows where all that govt money comes from. And maybe pull back on a bike lane or two (saying this as a bicyclist, Van has spent 10's of millions on screwing up streets for very little benefit except to look environmentally woke). His credibility was shaky going into this - and his latest comments aren't helping. One term mayor at best.


----------



## Milkman

One thing I'm a little disappointed in with this situation is the lack of local information available to us in this city.

We get reports about the entire county, but we're a city of 100,000, by far the largest part of the county and the data we're getting includes the rest of the county. More than half of the reported cases in this county are in one particular nursing home.

I would sure like to know how many cases there are in my city and where they are.

We lost our only reputable newspaper to the internet a long time ago. It still exists but it's s shadow of it's former self. You'll often see the same news on that site for days.


----------



## High/Deaf

BC has it's own news network, BC1. 

So I get a wide political range of national news (CTV and CBC) and also BC-concentrated news (BC1). Probably more than I really need.

And yet I still have a bit of time to watch those US news networks, which have never been as polarized as they are right now. Crazy down there.


----------



## Milkman

It's not political opinions I'm lacking.

It's data.

And to make things worse, what remains of our once fine newspaper only allows comments or contact via Facebook.

If you aren't in that club you can't really get anything out of them.


----------



## tomee2

Milkman said:


> One thing I'm a little disappointed in with this situation is the lack of local information available to us in this city.
> 
> We get reports about the entire county, but we're a city of 100,000, by far the largest part of the county and the data we're getting includes the rest of the county. More than half of the reported cases in this county are in one particular nursing home.
> 
> I would sure like to know how many cases there are in my city and where they are.
> 
> We lost our only reputable newspaper to the internet a long time ago. It still exists but it's s shadow of it's former self. You'll often see the same news on that site for days.


Agreed. The NY Times has a web site with a county by county map of case counts for the US. A team of journalists keep it going. I have not seen one like it for Canada, and I only recently found a source for provincial data.


----------



## Milkman

This is what passes for news in our city these days.

Brantford Expositor

I just did a little surfing to try and find some numbers (just a basic population breakdown)

It looks like the overall population including the city of Brantford is around 140,000.

100,000 of those live in the city. The rest are scattered throughout little towns like Paris, Burford, and rural areas.

More than half of the reported cases in this area are in one nursing home not located in Brantford.

But, I can't find out how many cases we really have here.


----------



## player99

davetcan said:


> I watched the full interview on Power Play. Machine was originally designed to test DNA but has been reconfigured to test for the virus. Swab can be taken from front of nose or back of throat, much easier, test results are 100% accuracy. Results in less than 1 hour with no need to send off to lab. The other beauty of it is that once you've made the initial purchase it's a simple thing to reconfigure to check for other virus, such as if Covid-19 mutates, no need to buy a whole new kit. Superb bit of engineering in my book!


With only 24 tests per day, to do 13,000 daily it requires 542 machines.


----------



## Electraglide

Ship of fools said:


> Yep those idiots were in BC my thoughts arrest the stupid fuckers for putting a child in harms way. As for Vancouver I don not understand why he just doesn't dip into the reserve fund that they have and yet he said he will not touch it. And they are not allowed to run a deficit. I kind of think it maybe a way for them to justify selling some properties that they have. Like the properties they have around little mountain that was suppose to have social housing built 20 years ago after they tore down the housing that was there before.A very large chunk of land but at this time would be sold as a fire sale I would imagine a;long with other lands throughout Vancouver.
> And lets all hope that these new test kits work and are available sooner then later to ease the minds of so many.
> And Electraglide did you not sign up for {{$root.currentState.locale == $root.LOCALE.BC? "my ehealth" : "my results"}}™: {{currentState.pageTitle | translate}} I get my results from them in 4 hours.


As far as I know I didn't sign up for anything other than being used as a laboratory rat. Must be a BC thing. My last two fasting blood tests I saw my doc on a Sat., went to the lab Sun afternoon and the results were back Mon. morning.


----------



## davetcan

More news here, and also talk of an antibody test from a Windsor firm that is going through the approval process.

COVID-19: Canadian detection technology gets approval

*Another Canadian technology seeks rapid approval*
_A Windsor Ontario based company has also developed a COVID-19 test.

Even as Spartan has its Health Canada approval, Audacia Bioscience has applied this week for Health Canada approval for its COVID-19 test technology.

Claimed to give results within ten minutes, the test uses a couple of blood drops from a pin-prick dropped into a solution. Simply mixing the two in a small container gives can provide the results. The technology involves a cassette-like container only a little larger than a man’s thumb.

Rather than test for live virus, *the technology determines the presence of antibodies to the virus in the blood. and is said to determine not only live virus infection, but also whether someone is assymptomatic or has recovered from the virus* as antibodies remain in the bloodstream.

Both developers say their tests allow for easier, quicker, and inexpensive mass testing, something they say is needed to determine the extent of the infection to better plan on how to deal with it._


----------



## colchar

This doesn't seem totally accurate, but as it improves it might prove useful for some:

Covid-19 - Supermarket Waiting Times


----------



## colchar

davetcan said:


> More news here, and also talk of an antibody test from a Windsor firm that is going through the approval process.
> 
> COVID-19: Canadian detection technology gets approval
> 
> *Another Canadian technology seeks rapid approval*
> _A Windsor Ontario based company has also developed a COVID-19 test.
> 
> Even as Spartan has its Health Canada approval, Audacia Bioscience has applied this week for Health Canada approval for its COVID-19 test technology.
> 
> Claimed to give results within ten minutes, the test uses a couple of blood drops from a pin-prick dropped into a solution. Simply mixing the two in a small container gives can provide the results. The technology involves a cassette-like container only a little larger than a man’s thumb.
> 
> Rather than test for live virus, *the technology determines the presence of antibodies to the virus in the blood. and is said to determine not only live virus infection, but also whether someone is assymptomatic or has recovered from the virus* as antibodies remain in the bloodstream.
> 
> Both developers say their tests allow for easier, quicker, and inexpensive mass testing, something they say is needed to determine the extent of the infection to better plan on how to deal with it._




That is very similar to the other test that is being ordered by the millions in other countries but which Health Canada refused to approve because the WHO is against it, and the Canadian government worships at the WHO altar.


----------



## davetcan

colchar said:


> That is very similar to the other test that is being ordered by the millions in other countries but which Health Canada refused to approve because the WHO is against it, and the Canadian government worships at the WHO altar.


Well I'd much rather buy Canadian but let's not wait a few months to do it.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Just came back from getting my needles at the pain clinic. Dude came in there says he is fine, goes into one of the treatment rooms, sweating like a pig and keeled over. trust nobody, wear a mask and gloves.


----------



## colchar

davetcan said:


> Well I'd much rather buy Canadian but let's not wait a few months to do it.



If I remember correctly, the other test was made in China for a Canadian company and it was that company that was selling it worldwide.

I saw the head of the Spartan company on TV last night. Apparently other countries are tripping over themselves to buy his product but he flatly refuses to sell to them until Canada has been fully supplied. Good for him.


----------



## Milkman

GuitarsCanada said:


> Just came back from getting my needles at the pain clinic. Dude came in there says he is fine, goes into one of the treatment rooms, sweating like a pig and keeled over. trust nobody, wear a mask and gloves.



Wow, that's frigging scary.

I don't envy you having to visit a clinic or hospital these days.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Milkman said:


> Wow, that's frigging scary.
> 
> I don't envy you having to visit a clinic or hospital these days.


I go in masked up and gloved up. But ya, it's still a bit concerning, last thing I need is this virus.


----------



## Milkman

GuitarsCanada said:


> I go in masked up and gloved up. But ya, it's still a bit concerning, last thing I need is this virus.



You and me both. I've been lucky (depending on your perspective) but this could kill me. I suppose it could kill Anyone, but the thought of dieing in a hospital gasping for breath is terrifying.

And then there's the possibility that I have already been exposed and had mild symptoms.

Sure would like to know that one way or another. It would be like night and day in terms of stress.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> This doesn't seem totally accurate, but as it improves it might prove useful for some:
> 
> Covid-19 - Supermarket Waiting Times


All I get is a map of someplace in Italy. Even if it were closer it wouldn't be that useful to me and they ask for my "global position" and a few other things.....aside from I don't have that on my laptop i wouldn't give out that info anyway.


----------



## laristotle

Electraglide said:


> they ask for my "global position" and a few other things


gps _or_ address _or_ city


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> One thing I'm a little disappointed in with this situation is the lack of local information available to us in this city.
> 
> We get reports about the entire county, but we're a city of 100,000, by far the largest part of the county and the data we're getting includes the rest of the county. More than half of the reported cases in this county are in one particular nursing home.
> 
> I would sure like to know how many cases there are in my city and where they are.
> 
> We lost our only reputable newspaper to the internet a long time ago. It still exists but it's s shadow of it's former self. You'll often see the same news on that site for days.


I agree whole heartily.

Here in Niagara they are withholding/grudgingly releasing info because of Privacy. The number of deaths on our website has been held at 10 for as long as I've been visiting. Dumb - because we know that one single retirement home has that many. So many have said that the only statistic you can rely on is the number of deaths as it can't be manipulated. Apparently we dont' even deserve to know that much.

Personally I want to know everything so that I can assess my own risks. I've only got one life - and I don't want that to end up being nothing more than a buried statistic.

Screw Privacy and screw Bureaucracy in times like these.


----------



## guitarman2

allthumbs56 said:


> I agree whole heartily.
> 
> Here in Niagara they are withholding/grudgingly releasing info because of Privacy. The number of deaths on our website has been held at 10 for as long as I've been visiting. Dumb - because we know that one single retirement home has that many. *So many have said that the only statistic you can rely on is the number of deaths as it can't be manipulated.* Apparently we dont' even deserve to know that much.
> 
> Personally I want to know everything so that I can assess my own risks. I've only got one life - and I don't want that to end up being nothing more than a buried statistic.


I don't know about that. I wonder how many deaths that have occurred through this pandemic that they didn't bother to test for that could be a flu or some other illness with similar symptoms.
I imagine in New York they're so overwhelmed that many deaths are generically getting lumped in as covid19


----------



## colchar

Electraglide said:


> All I get is a map of someplace in Italy. Even if it were closer it wouldn't be that useful to me and they ask for my "global position" and a few other things.....aside from I don't have that on my laptop i wouldn't give out that info anyway.



No need to give any more info than just the city you are in. That is what I did.


----------



## mhammer

Authorities have already noted that a not insignificant number of deaths in New York that occurred at home cannot be classified and lumped in with known Covid-19 deaths. Labs and coroners are preoccupied enough with triaging incoming cases that when someone is found deceased in their apartment, and there is no record of their symptoms or anyone to even give a description, nobody is going to spend man-hours to poke through the body and find out just exactly what the cause of death was. Under normal circumstances, maybe. But the number of such deaths in the NYC area has mushroomed. It probably IS Covid-19, but unless someone is going to invest the human resources to verify, they simply can't include it in the official numbers on a mere hunch. Remember that they're piling up bodies in refrigerator trucks and digging mass graves these days. No one is taking the time and effort to sort the iffy cases into the "right" pile.


----------



## Distortion

Milkman said:


> It's not political opinions I'm lacking.
> 
> It's data.
> 
> And to make things worse, what remains of our once fine newspaper only allows comments or contact via Facebook.
> 
> If you aren't in that club you can't really get anything out of them.


TV 11 gives all the local numbers on the morning news show. Also runs them on a ticker tape at the bottom.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

MERS = NO VACCINE
SARS = NO VACCINE
HIV = NO VACCINE
EBOLA = NO VACCINE
DENGUE = NO VACCINE
COVID-19 = ?


----------



## Milkman

Distortion said:


> TV 11 gives all the local numbers on the morning news show. Also runs them on a ticker tape at the bottom.


Thank you. I'm sorry but do you know their call letters? Not sure which station TV 11 is.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> No need to give any more info than just the city you are in. That is what I did.


tried it saying just the city where I am. No info for the closest walmart.....the only place near that's ever had a line up to get into the store. The other two places that are close have never had line ups....maybe once in a while at a cashier.....says that both of them have a 10 to 15 minute wait. I doubt that. Might be a useful thing if you have a car but for walking/transit it's not.


----------



## keto

GuitarsCanada said:


> MERS = NO VACCINE
> SARS = NO VACCINE
> HIV = NO VACCINE
> EBOLA = NO VACCINE
> DENGUE = NO VACCINE
> COVID-19 = ?


MERS SARS EBOLA the case & death numbers are tiny in comparison, not saying no efforts have been made but to compare to the resources being thrown at covid?

Dengue is spread by mosquitos in tropical countries. There is, according to wiki, a vaccine distributed in 11 countries, but there are 4 types of Dengue fever.

I guess we'll see.


----------



## Distortion

Milkman said:


> Thank you. I'm sorry but do you know their call letters? Not sure which station TV 11 is.


CHCH tv 11 Hamilton. You can watch it on line also.


----------



## Electraglide

GuitarsCanada said:


> MERS = NO VACCINE
> SARS = NO VACCINE
> HIV = NO VACCINE
> EBOLA = NO VACCINE
> DENGUE = NO VACCINE
> COVID-19 = ?


No vaccine for the bubonic plague either. They say it's making a come back in some places. Small pox, polio, measles, cholera, diptheria, pneumonia and a bunch of other diseases there are vaccines for. Hopefully they find one for these coronaviruses.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

keto said:


> MERS SARS EBOLA the case & death numbers are tiny in comparison, not saying no efforts have been made but to compare to the resources being thrown at covid?
> 
> Dengue is spread by mosquitos in tropical countries. There is, according to wiki, a vaccine distributed in 11 countries, but there are 4 types of Dengue fever.
> 
> I guess we'll see.


The point is these things are not set in stone. Anything can happen. Right now I would put it down as hope.


----------



## boyscout

mhammer said:


> Authorities have already noted that a not insignificant number of deaths in New York that occurred at home cannot be classified and lumped in with known Covid-19 deaths. *Labs and coroners are preoccupied enough with triaging incoming cases that when someone is found deceased in their apartment, and there is no record of their symptoms or anyone to even give a description, nobody is going to spend man-hours to poke through the body and find out just exactly what the cause of death was. * Under normal circumstances, maybe. But the number of such deaths in the NYC area has mushroomed. It probably IS Covid-19, but unless someone is going to invest the human resources to verify, they simply can't include it in the official numbers on a mere hunch. Remember that they're piling up bodies in refrigerator trucks and digging mass graves these days. No one is taking the time and effort to sort the iffy cases into the "right" pile.


Faster and cheaper than a divorce. Grim times.


----------



## Electraglide

boyscout said:


> Faster and cheaper than a divorce. Grim times.


True, just make sure she eats the mushrooms.


----------



## davetcan

We should also worry about things like this. Unless you're as old as some of us you won't remember how bad things like measles and polio were.

117 million children risk missing measles vaccines due to COVID-19 pandemic | CBC News


----------



## Electraglide

davetcan said:


> We should also worry about things like this. Unless you're as old as some of us you won't remember how bad things like measles and polio were.
> 
> 117 million children risk missing measles vaccines due to COVID-19 pandemic | CBC News


Had the measles and the mumps and a lot of other things. At the time they weren't that bad. Every kid seemed to get them and if you were a guy you hoped you got the mumps as a kid. There was one kid in school who had had polio but that was before the vaccines came out. Had both the shot and the liquid on a sugar cube. The Salk and the Sabin ones. They say if you had the measles you're fine.....the mumps, almost every one is immune.


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> No vaccine for the bubonic plague either. They say it's making a come back in some places. Small pox, polio, measles, cholera, diptheria, pneumonia and a bunch of other diseases there are vaccines for. Hopefully they find one for these coronaviruses.


The difficulty with viruses is identifying a vaccine dosage window. Vaccines are essentially deactivated pathogens. The principle is that if the vaccine is close enough to "the real thing", one develops specific antibodies, such that when the real thing comes along, one's immune system recognizes it and goes to work on it. But how "deactivated" does the pathogen need to be? It has to, in some respects, resemble the real thing, so as to provoke a full-scale immune response, but it can't be "live" enough that you end up giving the person the disease. Identifying that not-too-hot-not-too-cold point is tricky.

And of course, that assumes that there is enough vaccine to go around and that people willingly submit to being vaccinated. If there is one good thing that might come out of this, it would be that there is a more receptive audience for vaccines of every kind. If we could beat a number of other diseases into submission as a followup to beating Covid-19, that would be wonderful.

Some folks_ do_ get infected with the coronavirus and manage to beat it. And that's good. But we don't know how to identify them a priori. And it's not like sending your kids over to the neighbours to get chickenpox on purpose.; attempting to get infected on purpose has no assured outcome.


----------



## colchar

Electraglide said:


> tried it saying just the city where I am. No info for the closest walmart.....the only place near that's ever had a line up to get into the store. The other two places that are close have never had line ups....maybe once in a while at a cashier.....says that both of them have a 10 to 15 minute wait. I doubt that. Might be a useful thing if you have a car but for walking/transit it's not.



It says that if the app is particularly busy, there might be delays in getting info. You also have to scroll out and back in again to get it to pick up all stores in your area. It is open source software so will be improving regularly. It ain't perfect, but it seems helpful.


----------



## Distortion

High/Deaf said:


> I don't know where you get your news but that is so inaccurate as to be probably made up by the Onion.
> 
> 
> BC had the first case of this virus in Canada.
> 
> We've been dealing with this and fighting it the longest in Canada.
> 
> Our govt and PHO recognized early on the seriousness of the situation and acted quickly and decisively. We are still leading the country with things like an actual quarantine act.
> 
> Minister Dix pushed the feds for things like closing down borders, including being critical of not closing the US border quick enough.
> 
> It's not like we're sitting around waiting for this thing to "get going in Vancouver". What a ridiculous comment.
> 
> It's obvious to me that whoever supplied your information has no idea how virus' work. It didn't go through BC while somehow skirting Vancouver. It hit Vancouver in late Feb and they've been fighting it ever since. But fighting it smart. And it's working.
> 
> Not luck. Not standing around and waiting for it. Hard work by medical professionals and other support people. And sacrifice by a large majority of the population, isolating and giving up social outings and travel. Too bad none of that makes it onto your news channel.
> 
> Not to say there won't be a bigger outbreak in Vancouver. This virus is still alive and spreading it requires continued vigilance and effort, but we are showing that the vigilance and effort work.


It amazes me the drable that comes out of your yap. Locked up way toooo long.


----------



## mhammer

High/Deaf said:


> I don't know where you get your news but that is so inaccurate as to be probably made up by the Onion.
> 
> 
> BC had the first case of this virus in Canada.
> 
> We've been dealing with this and fighting it the longest in Canada.
> 
> Our govt and PHO recognized early on the seriousness of the situation and acted quickly and decisively. We are still leading the country with things like an actual quarantine act.
> 
> Minister Dix pushed the feds for things like closing down borders, including being critical of not closing the US border quick enough.
> 
> It's not like we're sitting around waiting for this thing to "get going in Vancouver". What a ridiculous comment.
> 
> It's obvious to me that whoever supplied your information has no idea how virus' work. It didn't go through BC while somehow skirting Vancouver. It hit Vancouver in late Feb and they've been fighting it ever since. But fighting it smart. And it's working.
> 
> Not luck. Not standing around and waiting for it. Hard work by medical professionals and other support people. And sacrifice by a large majority of the population, isolating and giving up social outings and travel. Too bad none of that makes it onto your news channel.
> 
> Not to say there won't be a bigger outbreak in Vancouver. This virus is still alive and spreading it requires continued vigilance and effort, but we are showing that the vigilance and effort work.


There is a continental divide in Canada. Folks closer to the west coast tend to both have familial connections to East Asia that many in the eastern half of the country don't have (or at least not as frequently), and also tend to vacation Pacific-wise, as opposed to Caribbean and Europe like the eastern half of the country. Albertans and British Colombians are more likely to go to Australia, Hawaii, Thailand, etc., than to Florida or Cuba, where Ontarians and Quebecois are more likely to head south than far west. You just go where its closer and the air far is decent. Equally important, there is an enormous amount of traffic between northwest Washington state and the lower mainland. Seattle got hit pretty bad early on, and what happens in Seattle easily becomes Vancouver's problem as well. Wouldn't surprise me at all if some of the people working in the Lynn Valley nursing home in North Van that was hit hard, brought an infection from cross-border shopping in one direction or the other. Lynn Valley was a serious tragedy before Pinecrest in Bobcaygeon was a glimmer in anyone's eye.

I'm not trying to say that BC's "boo-boo was worse", but BC got sucker-punched before Ontario started to feel it hard.


----------



## tomee2

mhammer said:


> Yes. Since we were down under 20 deaths or so, the mortality rate per-capita in the U.S. has been 3-4 times greater than in Canada, every step of the way. And to my surprise, we have not "caught up" with the U.S. That is, the difference in per-capita mortality rates is not simply because "our" deaths came later, or because of reporting differences that underestimated our mortality rate.
> 
> It is difficult to know what to attribute this to. Some would say it is a difference of population density. Canada's pop. density is a tiny fraction of the USA. But let's ignore the vast northern expanses that cause that difference in density, and focus on the major urban areas where the most deaths and cases have occurred. Is there a difference in density between the GTA and much of the U.S. eastern seaboard? Or between Vancouver and Seattle? I think not. What HAS been in evidence - and again, I do not attribute the difference in mortality solely to this - is the high degree of federal/provincial cooperation in Canada, compared to the federal/state coordination down south. Provincial leaders that might have traditionally been all too willing to rip Ottawa a new one have been working together in surprisingly and pleasingly civil fashion. Part of that I suppose is the difference between having 10 provinces, compared to 50 states. Herding more cats is harder than herding fewer. I think another part may be a result of having medicare for all. Keep in mind that they had to _legislate_ cost-coverage of testing, where we had costs covered all along. I say this not knowing how many fatalities resulted from tardy diagnosis, so it is mere speculation on my part.
> 
> Perhaps when the post-game analysis eventually comes along, we will learn that the national differences in mortality rate stemmed from factors that none of us, perhaps at ANY level of power or expertise, realized or anticipated. Life is unfortunately like that.


Tough questions to answer, and I'm betting this will be studied in depth for years to come.
My take is that we are different countries, with different people, political systems, and reactions to this new virus. Sort of like asking why is it bad in the UK, but not bad in Germany. Leadership? Luck? Testing? 

anyway...Lots of per country data here, in visual form too (you probably have seen it already).
Coronavirus Disease (COVID-19) – the data
scroll to the bottom to see maps on age, health data etc. we look to be a wee bit healthier than Americans. Maybe that's all it is? or maybe not. Or maybe it's all the snow... who knows.

We might also be social distancing just a bit better, maybe not much but enough to make a difference. We might not have as many travelers coming in from all over the world? We have 2, maybe 3 airports that can be thought of as international hubs. NY City alone has 2 major airports, Florida has 4. Also, some US states still don't have travel the restrictions or business closures like we have up here. I think lots of these little things add up. (I can't figure out why Florida hasn't exploded with cases yet - after the open beaches on March break it was talked that it would spread like wild, but it doesn't seem to have. Maybe it's still delayed? )


related to this...
One thing I'm bothered with is that our daily case numbers keep rising... We've been home for 4 weeks now, why is it still increasing?


----------



## boyscout

Distortion said:


> It amazes me the drable that comes out of your yap. Locked up way toooo long.


Maybe you could first share with us what "drable" is, and then tell us what parts of @High/Deaf 's post about BC's experience with the virus are "drable" and why?


----------



## tomee2

boyscout said:


> Maybe you could first share with us what "drable" is, and then tell us what parts of @High/Deaf 's post about BC's experience with the virus are "drable" and why?


I think BC is doing pretty well, from the numbers I've seen. I don't live there and I haven't seen much news about it - maybe on the ground there is a different sense of what's going on?


----------



## Dorian2

vadsy said:


>


lol. Yes, all 16 of this bohunks followers are sending a huge message. Here's the guys Youtube channel..






Wadda doorknob.

EDIT: Guess Youtube pulled his video.


----------



## Electraglide

Just a couple of things, take them as you will.











mhammer said:


> Folks closer to the west coast tend to both have familial connections to East Asia that many in the eastern half of the country don't have (or at least not as frequently), and also tend to vacation Pacific-wise, as opposed to Caribbean and Europe like the eastern half of the country. Albertans and British Colombians are more likely to go to Australia, Hawaii, Thailand, etc., than to Florida or Cuba, where Ontarians and Quebecois are more likely to head south than far west. You just go where its closer and the air far is decent. Equally important, there is an enormous amount of traffic between northwest Washington state and the lower mainland. Seattle got hit pretty bad early on, and what happens in Seattle easily becomes Vancouver's problem as well. Wouldn't surprise me at all if some of the people working in the Lynn Valley nursing home in North Van that was hit hard, brought an infection from cross-border shopping in one direction or the other. Lynn Valley was a serious tragedy before Pinecrest in Bobcaygeon was a glimmer in anyone's eye.
> 
> I'm not trying to say that BC's "boo-boo was worse", but BC got sucker-punched before Ontario started to feel it hard.


What's that place called the "Windsor-Detroit Gateway"? Wouldn't surprise me if a shitload of stuff, including infection was brought over that. And there's probably as many people from BC and AB going to Florida and the southern states as there is from the eastern provinces and the same from the eastern provinces to Australia, and Hawaii etc.. Hell of a lot cheaper and faster to fly from Van or Calgary to Orlando than it is to say Sydney.


----------



## Milkman

This morning's numbers.


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> Just a couple of things, take them as you will.
> What's that place called the "Windsor-Detroit Gateway"? Wouldn't surprise me if a shitload of stuff, including infection was brought over that. And there's probably as many people from BC and AB going to Florida and the southern states as there is from the eastern provinces and the same from the eastern provinces to Australia, and Hawaii etc.. Hell of a lot cheaper and faster to fly from Van or Calgary to Orlando than it is to say Sydney.


Not disputing that westerners visit Florida. But Quebecers can get their Montreal papers in newspaper boxes on the street in Florida. Can BC-ers get the Vancouver Sun there?


----------



## Dorian2

When we were in Miami in 2002 (shoe/belt check security and all) for a week there were a lot of Eastern Canucks in the area. The cabbie that took us to South Beach was mentioning that he and his family go up to Quebec to ski every winter as well. Makes sense that a number of more Easterners would be travelling back and forth in those areas. Never even thought of that angle but it does make sense.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> Not disputing that westerners visit Florida. But Quebecers can get their Montreal papers in newspaper boxes on the street in Florida. Can BC-ers get the Vancouver Sun there?


Being a regular traveler to the Caribbean it has always amazed me how many people come from elsewhere all over the world. At any given resort you will always find more Russians, Italians and Spaniards than Canadians. As for Canadians, we have pretty much met them from all over this country. My daughter from Victoria joins us in Cuba most years. It's a longer trip for them (typically hitting Toronto or sometimes Calgary before they head "down") but it's still way cheaper for them than going to say Cabo or anything else on the west coast of Mexico. Once planes are in the air they move pretty quick.

We were in Punta Cana the first week of February. I thought we'd be very safe there and far from any viruses. The Dominican now has well over 3,000 cases - seeded I expect from the many thousands of Italians and Spaniards that were vacationing along with us.


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> Not disputing that westerners visit Florida. But Quebecers can get their Montreal papers in newspaper boxes on the street in Florida. Can BC-ers get the Vancouver Sun there?


Does it matter? Last time I was in Florida I never looked.


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> Does it matter? Last time I was in Florida I never looked.


Simply an indicator of the presence of Quebecois down there in "La Floride".


----------



## Milkman

I'm sure many of our cases can be traced directly to people returning from the USA.

I get that people were down there and had to come home, but there were also many who blew this off as some sort of paranoid delusion or conspiracy theory and actually went on vacation during March break. Maybe they didn't want to lose the money or something, I don't know.

Now, I'm not plugged into any special network and have no extraordinary connections, but I knew damned well not to travel by late January, early February.

Depending on which statistic you choose to look at, we're still in much better shape here than in many parts of the world.


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> Depending on which statistic you choose to look at, we're still in much better shape here than in many parts of the world.



"Depending" is the keyword.

If you look at number of deaths per 1M population (probably a reasonable comparison) we are #27 out of 213 countries for the most deaths. So, yes - we're better off than 12% of the rest of the world. San Marino has the highest (1061/1M) compared with the U.S at 79, Spain at 397 and Canada at 24.

Having said that I'm pretty sure we're doing quite well when compared to other 1st-world countries.


----------



## mhammer

My wife was reading this morning that in their quite-understandable hurry to get on it, apparently the American FDA had relaxed their requirements for approving antibody tests, reducing the evidenciary requisites. In some instances, the tests _do_ pick up antibodies for Covid-19, but are generic enough in what they test for that a number of other corona-type virus antibodies are also flagged as an equivalent positive. So the individual could be "cleared" as having an immunity to Covid-19 when what they have is antibodies and immunity to a more common flu.

One of the reasons why charging ahead and using things simply because other G7 nations have declared it OK is maybe not _always_ the wisest course of action. Measure twice, cut once. And, as it turns out, the turnaround time for Canadian health authorities to give tests appropriate scrutiny is noticeably less than the time it takes to get tests produced in sufficient quantity, catalogued and shipped out to where they are needed.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> "Depending" is the keyword.
> 
> If you look at number of deaths per 1M population (probably a reasonable comparison) we are #27 out of 213 countries for the most deaths. So, yes - we're better off than 12% of the rest of the world. San Marino has the highest (1061/1M) compared with the U.S at 79, Spain at 397 and Canada at 24.
> 
> Having said that I'm pretty sure we're doing quite well when compared to other 1st-world countries.



Well, both in terms of infected people and deaths, we're about three times safer here than in the USA.

I'm considering the numbers in Canada X 10 to compensate for the population difference.


----------



## JBFairthorne

Population density is probably a much bigger factor than population.


----------



## greco

JBFairthorne said:


> Population density is probably a much bigger factor than population.


That is what I was thinking in the past...but it is not always consistent/correlating:
Countries by Population Density 2019 - StatisticsTimes.com


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> Well, both in terms of infected people and deaths, we're about three times safer here than in the USA.
> 
> I'm considering the numbers in Canada X 10 to compensate for the population difference.


My SIL in South Carolina says it's still pretty much business as usual there. They're paying attention but haven't closed much down.

Then there's Sweden

Critics question Swedish approach as coronavirus death toll reaches 1,000

Getting pretty controversial.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> My SIL in South Carolina says it's still pretty much business as usual there. They're paying attention but haven't closed much down.
> 
> Then there's Sweden
> 
> Critics question Swedish approach as coronavirus death toll reaches 1,000
> 
> Getting pretty controversial.


I guess it's now a matter of wait and see.

My SIL in Virginia is recovering from Covid-19. Somehow my brother tested negative and still has no symptoms.

I'm just hiding out.


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> I'm just hiding out.


Same here. Had to go to a client's home yesterday and will be in the office Thursday through Saturday but otherwise staying pretty close to home.

We have beer, food, chemicals for the hot tub (and the pool if it takes that long) and the MG is licensed and ready to go. Maggs and I still like being together too. So we're good.


----------



## mhammer

JBFairthorne said:


> Population density is probably a much bigger factor than population.


Population density matters up to a point. Canada doesn't have an ultra-low density because we all live 100m from anyone else. It has a low density because there are vast spaces where _nobody_ lives. The Quebec-to-Windsor corridor is as densely populated as much of the USA. If we're talking small nations that still manage to pack in a lot of people, then yes, population density matters. NYC has some fabulous parks, but that's primarily because where much of its population lives is bereft of any front or back yards, living in apartments. The older parts of Montreal and Toronto are the same; slender row house with people living on top of other people, and almost as dense as the oldest parts of Italy.

(Twenty years back, I had to come up with a name for an inbox*** test item, ostensibly from a hypothetical contractor in Nunavut. I went to our library and found the then-current Nunavut phone book, and flipped through it looking for a common name with plenty of entries, that would be recognizable as "from around there". I have issues of _Guitar Player_ magazine as thick as the Nunavut phonebook, and the territory is over 2 million square kilometers.

***Inbox tests are used in the selection and hiring of managers, and have that name because they contain a pile of correspondence, invoices, complaints, client requests, budget proposals, memos, and other things pertaining to an imaginary position that would normally be part of a manager's "inbox" of things to attend to.)


----------



## allthumbs56

JBFairthorne said:


> Population density is probably a much bigger factor than population.


As is the heritage of citizens. In Canada we all have come from"somewhere else" and those ties cause us to travel a great deal. Might explain why states such as Utah, Wyoming and Idaho have pretty low numbers while New York State are so high.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> As is the heritage of citizens. In Canada we all have come from"somewhere else" and those ties cause us to travel a great deal. Might explain why states such as Utah, Wyoming and Idaho have pretty low numbers while New York State are so high.



Some of us came from right here.

I'm a mongrel like most, so I have heritage both in France and in my 1st nation (Miq Maq).


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> Some of us came from right here.
> 
> I'm a mongrel like most, so I have heritage both in France and in my 1st nation (Miq Maq).


I stand corrected. So 36/37ths of us .......... 

My point is valid regardless. A lot of us "lose touch" with our ancestral homes but there are a lot of recent immigrants and 1st generation Canadians who have family in other countries and they visit lots.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> I stand corrected. So 36/37ths of us ..........
> 
> My point is valid regardless. A lot of us "lose touch" with our ancestral homes but there are a lot of recent immigrants and 1st generation Canadians who have family in other countries and they visit lots.


Yup, I'm not finding fault in your post, just an observation. We're definitely a mixing pot.


----------



## Electraglide

allthumbs56 said:


> As is the heritage of citizens. In Canada we all have come from"somewhere else" and those ties cause us to travel a great deal. Might explain why states such as Utah, Wyoming and Idaho have pretty low numbers while New York State are so high.


You don't think the fact that New York state has about 4 times as many people as Utah, Wyoming and Idaho combined has any bearing on the matter? Wyoming has a population of less than 600,000 and Calgary has almost as many people as Idaho. I'd say almost all those people or at least their ancestors came from "somewhere else". Me I'm 2nd gen on my dad's side and 4th on mom's. English and Scots/Irish with a bit of Spanish and some Norwegian in there from back in the day. Probably a few other's also. The only time 'ties' made me travel is when we rode to Manitoba to see the family graves in Oak Lake.


----------



## Jim Wellington

Milkman said:


> Yup, I'm not finding fault in your post, just an observation. We're definitely a mixing pot.


Actually, as I was taught in school, for what that`s worth...We are a mosaic, the American`s...melting-pot. The differences are more than subtle in the long run. Mixing-pot? Not sure about that one....


----------



## Milkman

Jim Wellington said:


> Actually, as I was taught in school, for what that`s worth...We are a mosaic, the American`s...melting-pot. The differences are more than subtle in the long run. Mixing-pot? Not sure about that one....


Semantics?

We're a multicultural society.

I see lots of differences between us and our neighbors to the south, but those are definitely open to interpretation as well.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Milkman said:


> I'm sure many of our cases can be traced directly to people returning from the USA.
> 
> I get that people were down there and had to come home, but there were also many who blew this off as some sort of paranoid delusion or conspiracy theory and actually went on vacation during March break. Maybe they didn't want to lose the money or something, I don't know.
> 
> Now, I'm not plugged into any special network and have no extraordinary connections, but I knew damned well not to travel by late January, early February.
> 
> Depending on which statistic you choose to look at, we're still in much better shape here than in many parts of the world.


My sister and husband winter in the same trailer park my parents wintered in near Bradenton Florida. They had planned to come back early April. They had no great sense of how serious this was because they only heard US media and their American friends. It took some convincing from their kids and me to get them to get back in mid-March. Now that they're here (and now finished self-quarantine) they have a different sense of what's going on, especially in the US.


----------



## tomee2

Population density matters, but you have to divide population by the area of urban borders. Not civic borders but where cities are. Ottawa has a low population density because the city borders go way into farm country, but the built up urban areas are pretty dense. Same with Toronto. And dividing by the area of the country is just misleading. We’re not Monaco. 
Canada is denser and more urban than the US.
Their later and less intense response in some states is what I think explains what is going on down there. I also think more states will eventually revise their numbers upwards the way NY is now.


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> My wife was reading this morning that in their quite-understandable hurry to get on it, apparently the American FDA had relaxed their requirements for approving antibody tests, reducing the evidenciary requisites. In some instances, the tests _do_ pick up antibodies for Covid-19, but are generic enough in what they test for that a number of other corona-type virus antibodies are also flagged as an equivalent positive. So the individual could be "cleared" as having an immunity to Covid-19 when what they have is antibodies and immunity to a more common flu.
> 
> One of the reasons why charging ahead and using things simply because other G7 nations have declared it OK is maybe not _always_ the wisest course of action. Measure twice, cut once. And, as it turns out, the turnaround time for Canadian health authorities to give tests appropriate scrutiny is noticeably less than the time it takes to get tests produced in sufficient quantity, catalogued and shipped out to where they are needed.



You might want to consult with that doctor who said not to delay _anything_. Do not be timid, and stop worrying about being wrong. I am sure he knows more about how to combat pandemics than you.


----------



## Milkman

tomee2 said:


> Population density matters, but you have to divide population by the area of urban borders. Not civic borders but where cities are. Ottawa has a low population density because the city borders go way into farm country, but the built up urban areas are pretty dense. Same with Toronto. And dividing by the area of the country is just misleading. We’re not Monaco.
> Canada is denser and more urban than the US.
> Their later and less intense response in some states is what I think explains what is going on down there. I also think more states will eventually revise their numbers upwards the way NY is now.



China probably should too, but.....


----------



## tomee2

Jim Wellington said:


> Actually, as I was taught in school, for what that`s worth...We are a mosaic, the American`s...melting-pot. The differences are more than subtle in the long run. Mixing-pot? Not sure about that one....


But we have legal pot!


----------



## tomee2

Milkman said:


> China probably should too, but.....


And Italy and Spain. There was a huge revision after h1n1 pandemic. Not through testing, but statistical comparison to the normal number of deaths.


----------



## mhammer

tomee2 said:


> Population density matters, but you have to divide population by the area of urban borders. Not civic borders but where cities are. Ottawa has a low population density because the city borders go way into farm country, but the built up urban areas are pretty dense. Same with Toronto. And dividing by the area of the country is just misleading. We’re not Monaco.
> Canada is denser and more urban than the US.
> Their later and less intense response in some states is what I think explains what is going on down there. I also think more states will eventually revise their numbers upwards the way NY is now.


I was trading notes with a fellow who lives in Lombardy; just outside a town called Siena, in particular. The layout of the housing is such that you don't even need a phone to talk to neighbours. You just talk out the window. No need to shout unless a noisy vehicle is passing by. Some of you must have been on the streets of the oldest parts of Quebec City, where it feels like you need to flatten yourself against a wall to let a bicycle pass. Many parts parts of Italy are like that, with the social distancing we have the luxury of practising in Canadian suburbs a near impossibility.

Certainly the form that housing and urban layout takes will correspond to the population size, and conversely population size in urban centers will correspond to what the layout and forms of housing can support. Additionally, older cities will tend to have denser housing. There isn't much at all in Edmonton or Calgary that corresponds to the densely-packed row houses and tenements in the oldest parts of Quebec, Montreal and Toronto, just as there isn't anything in the suburbs of those cities that corresponds to the downtown core. As time marched on, people came to expect bigger properties, individual bedrooms, yards, etc. Nothing intrinsically right or wrong about that; it just means there is more space between people, regardless of how populous the region might be. I will also note that, among a bunch of reasons, a big part of why so many deaths have occurred in nursing homes is precisely because people are often in shared rooms that facilitate contagion. My 94 year-old aunt is currently sequestered in her nursing home, but she has her own room and her own bathroom and remains, thankfully, healthy.

If you've been to NYC, you'll know that it isn't exactly like Vaughan or Dorval or Abbotsford. It is packed. My buddy Steve Daniels and his wife like in the Park Slope area of Brooklyn in a nice modest older apartment with a nice view of the Statue of Liberty. You cannot leave that building without passing a LOT of people in the process, pressing buttons, and turning handles that don't belong to you. The surrounding streets are 3-storey brownstones that look like every Woody Allen movie you've ever seen, with absolutely NO space between them. Many are divided into flats. Our nephew lives in Greenwich Village in a bachelor apartment. How do you live your life in those places without being exposed to other people? And remember that many who live in the city do not own a car, and rely on public transit and taxis to get around, further exposing them. So it should not surprise us that NYC is having such a high infection rate and death toll.


----------



## allthumbs56

Electraglide said:


> You don't think the fact that New York state has about 4 times as many people as Utah, Wyoming and Idaho combined has any bearing on the matter? Wyoming has a population of less than 600,000 and Calgary has almost as many people as Idaho. I'd say almost all those people or at least their ancestors came from "somewhere else". Me I'm 2nd gen on my dad's side and 4th on mom's. English and Scots/Irish with a bit of Spanish and some Norwegian in there from back in the day. Probably a few other's also. The only time 'ties' made me travel is when we rode to Manitoba to see the family graves in Oak Lake.


Absolutely. The stat I used (in the original post) was "deaths per million" which leveled that particular playing field. Not arguing the ancestry either - just poining out that those states don't have a lot of NEWER immigrants that are travelling back and forth to "ancestral homes". Whereas New York State would have more.

See? We agree


----------



## tomee2

No doubt we are not as densely packed as old Europe, or Manhattan. But suburban Detroit, Denver, Houston, Dallas etc look nothing like suburban Edmonton or Ottawa. Most large US cities have large swaths of housing on 2 acre or bigger lots. Canadian cities have a bit of it, but in the US these areas are gigantic.
I guess I’m saying that although we often compare ourselves to the US, we are, I think, more different than similar, in some ways.


----------



## High/Deaf

mhammer said:


> I'm not trying to say that BC's "boo-boo was worse", but BC got sucker-punched before Ontario started to feel it hard.


Neither was I. I was correcting some completely false and malicious rumours that someone spread without any actual information or facts. To say we aren't doing anything and were lucky Van wasn't hit hard is just asinine fear-mongering.

We are working our problem and our govt is being very good about telling us not to spread rumours about other areas because not everyone measures things the same, not everyone had the same path (such as different spring break schedules) so the numbers alone aren't conclusive. That makes more sense, a calm reflective explanation, rather than spreading facebook crap about what other places are doing wrong or masks or whatever else he's on about these days. A cry for attention? Probably.


----------



## Milkman

High/Deaf said:


> Neither was I. I was correcting some completely false and malicious rumours that someone spread without any actual information or facts. To say we aren't doing anything and were lucky Van wasn't hit hard is just asinine fear-mongering.
> 
> We are working our problem and our govt is being very good about telling us not to spread rumours about other areas because not everyone measures things the same, not everyone had the same path (such as different spring break schedules) so the numbers alone aren't conclusive. That makes more sense, a calm reflective explanation, rather than spreading facebook crap about what other places are doing wrong or masks or whatever else he's on about these days. A cry for attention? Probably.


Someone said such things?

I recall saying Vancouver was taking it hard or something similar, but really any major city is going to have problems with spread.


----------



## Electraglide

allthumbs56 said:


> Absolutely. The stat I used (in the original post) was "deaths per million" which leveled that particular playing field. Not arguing the ancestry either - just poining out that those states don't have a lot of NEWER immigrants that are travelling back and forth to "ancestral homes". Whereas New York State would have more.
> 
> See? We agree


Not too sure whether they do or don't have a lot of NEWER immigrants or where they are from. I'm just pointing out that New York would have more because it has more people. So for that fact does almost any province in Canada. You could use the same 'logic' when comparing Nunavut to say Ont. or even PEI.


Milkman said:


> Someone said such things?
> 
> I recall saying Vancouver was taking it hard or something similar, but really any major city is going to have problems with spread.


I think the phrase was/is,
"It amazes me the drable that comes out of your yap." Not by you.


----------



## Milkman

Electraglide said:


> Not too sure whether they do or don't have a lot of NEWER immigrants or where they are from. I'm just pointing out that New York would have more because it has more people. So for that fact does almost any province in Canada. You could use the same 'logic' when comparing Nunavut to say Ont. or even PEI.
> 
> I think the phrase was/is,
> "It amazes me the drable that comes out of your yap." Not by you.


It's mostly drivel that comes out of my yap. No drable that I'm aware of.


----------



## High/Deaf

Milkman said:


> I recall saying Vancouver was taking it hard or something similar, but really any major city is going to have problems with spread.


Exactly. We would expect larger, denser cities to be hit harder. The fact that Van wasn't hit harder (but is still taking a significant hit) is largely due to things we've done, not because "we've been lucky". I don't know where someone gets that idea, I can't imagine a real media source would say it. And of course, there has been no answer to the few questions asked to justify the statement.


----------



## Milkman

I've been under the impression that there is a large population of Chinese immigrants living in Vancouver. I think I may have read that in the context of an article explaining the rather high cost of real estate there.

Is there any reason to think Vancouver would be more impacted by the virus due to the higher number of Chinese people coming and going to and from China?

I'm just thinking out loud I guess.


----------



## High/Deaf

Milkman said:


> I've been under the impression that there is a large population of Chinese immigrants living in Vancouver. I think I may have read that in the context of an article explaining the rather high cost of real estate there.
> 
> Is there any reason to think Vancouver would be more impacted by the virus due to the higher number of Chinese people coming and going to and from China?
> 
> I'm just thinking out loud I guess.


Absolutely. We probably have the highest - at least as a percentage of population - number of Chinese and Indian (basically, all SE Asian) immigrants in Canada. Partially our geography, I guess, much like Quebec has a much higher percentage of Caribbean immigrants. It affects all sorts of things - good and bad. We have many world class ethnics restaurants (or at least used to) and our grocery stores have stuff you couldn't even imagine. We also have a higher average age because we are a popular retirement location for a lot of western Canadians.

These all play a factor in real estate prices and many other things, including our sensitivity to controlling border access and trying to stem the spread of this disease. Where many people are being repatriated* from* made us particularly active in this discussion.


----------



## allthumbs56

High/Deaf said:


> Where many people are being repatriated* from* made us particularly active in this discussion.


I am still amazed that at the time they we're "closing" the border they said there were 3 million Canadians out of the country. With only about 375,000 being identified as "Snowbirds" that leaves a lot of people traveling for business and family reasons.


----------



## keto

Yet another fun headline. COVID-19: New Thailand study indicates coronavirus can jump from the dead to the living


----------



## laristotle




----------



## laristotle

Kelly McParland on COVID-19: World leaders prove you don't need global summits to get things done

_It’s a bit difficult to combine a worldwide health crisis with a global oil shock and find something positive in the outcome. But it’s not impossible, and there is at least one potential benefit the junction of the two could portend: with luck, it might speed the death of the global summit.

First of all, it should be pointed out that this was a totally artificial conflict. It wasn’t caused by some unforeseen event that forced the world’s biggest producers to flood the world with oil. It was started by a pair of authoritarian overlords — Russian President Vladimir Putin and Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman — looking to gain a bit more market share for themselves. Both run countries that are overwhelmingly dependent on oil income, and both need the money to keep people from getting restless and questioning their hold on power. In the end, it didn’t work out the way they hoped: they found their treasuries bleeding billions while they played a game of global chicken. In ending it, they managed the almost impossible feat of making U.S. President Donald Trump look like the adult in the room.

What’s important here, though, is how they ended it. The final agreement took days of intensive videoconferencing among some 20-plus representatives from major oil producers and the G20 nations. It was reportedly finalized on Sunday, as everyone was keen to get it done before the markets opened.

They did it without getting together in one place, the way grandees love to do. No fleets of aircraft stuffed with politicians and their army of aides and hangers-on cramming the skies. No army of limousines jamming streets in some exotic location specially chosen for its glorious scenery and luxury hotels. No group photos of people who would go largely unrecognized outside their own countries, enjoying their brief stay in the limelight. No bevy of journalists jostling for position, wondering why they continue to cover often-pointless, budget-draining get-togethers, when the outcome has usually long since been prearranged. No more activists gathering en masse to condemn the pointless effusion of emissions while adding to it themselves.

If authorities from so many countries can navigate so difficult a matter without leaving the comfort of their capitals, how can anyone defend the necessity of future summits? Why bother, other than for the aggrandizement of the people involved, which serves no one’s purpose but their own? This is especially the case when so many of the agendas have to do with efforts to come to grips with climate change, which would be much further ahead if all those people simply stayed home and did their talking by videophone._


----------



## Jim DaddyO

I copied this from a facebook post. Seems a pretty accurate interpretation of the rules we are to follow.

The Rules as of today:

1. Basically, you can't leave the house for any reason, but if you have to, then you can.

2. Masks are useless, but maybe you have to wear one, it can save you, it is useless, but maybe it is mandatory as well.

3. Stores are closed, except those that are open.

4. You should not go to hospitals unless you have to go there. Same applies to doctors, you should only go there in case of emergency, provided you are not too sick.

5. This virus is deadly but still not too scary, except that sometimes it actually leads to a global disaster.

6. Gloves won't help, but they can still help.

7. Everyone needs to stay HOME, but it's important to GO OUT.

8. There is no shortage of groceries in the supermarket, but there are many things missing when you go there in the evening, but not in the morning. Sometimes.

9. The virus has no effect on children except those it affects.

10. Animals are not affected, but there is still a cat that tested positive in Belgium in February when no one had been tested, plus a few tigers here and there…

11. You will have many symptoms when you are sick, but you can also get sick without symptoms, have symptoms without being sick, or be contagious without having symptoms. Oh, my..

12. In order not to get sick, you have to eat well and exercise, but eat whatever you have on hand and it's better not to go out, well, but no…

13. It's better to get some fresh air, but you get looked at very wrong when you get some fresh air, and most importantly, you don't go to parks or walk. But don’t sit down, except that you can do that now if you are old, but not for too long or if you are pregnant (but not too old).

14. You can't go to retirement homes, but you have to take care of the elderly and bring food and medication.

15. If you are sick, you can't go out, but you can go to the pharmacy.

16. You can get restaurant food delivered to the house, which may have been prepared by people who didn't wear masks or gloves. But you have to have your groceries decontaminated outside for 3 hours. Pizza too?

17. Every disturbing article or disturbing interview must start with " I don't want to trigger panic, but…"

18. You can't see your older mother or grandmother, but you can take a taxi and meet an older taxi driver.

19. You can walk around with a friend but not with your family if they don't live under the same roof.

20. You are safe if you maintain the appropriate social distance, but you can’t go out with friends or strangers at the safe social distance.

21. The virus remains active on different surfaces for two hours, no, four, no, six, no, we didn't say hours, maybe days? But it takes a damp environment. Oh no, not necessarily.

22. The virus stays in the air - well no, or yes, maybe, especially in a closed room, in one hour a sick person can infect ten, so if it falls, all our children were already infected at school before it was closed. But remember, if you stay at the recommended social distance, however in certain circumstances you should maintain a greater distance, which, studies show, the virus can travel further, maybe.

23. We count the number of deaths but we don't know how many people are infected as we have only tested so far those who were "almost dead" to find out if that's what they will die of

24. We have no treatment, except that there may be one that apparently is not dangerous unless you take too much (which is the case with all medications). Orange man bad.

25. We should stay locked up until the virus disappears, but it will only disappear if we achieve collective immunity, so when it circulates… but we must no longer be locked up for that?


----------



## colchar

laristotle said:


> View attachment 305416


----------



## colchar

Head cold? Check.
Sore throat? Check.
Full, almost choking feeling in throat? Check.
Fever? Check (mild).
Headache? Check, check, and check again (I get migraines so have some pretty potent medications and they aren't doing jack shit).
Difficulty breathing? Check (mild).
Nausea? Check.
Aches and pains? Check.
Dizziness? Check (mild).
Fatigue? Check, and check again.
Meet the criteria for testing in Ontario? Nope.

Fuck me.


----------



## keto

colchar said:


> Head cold? Check.
> Sore throat? Check.
> Full, almost choking feeling in throat? Check.
> Fever? Check (mild).
> Headache? Check, check, and check again (I get migraines so have some pretty potent medications and they aren't doing jack shit).
> Difficulty breathing? Check (mild).
> Nausea? Check.
> Aches and pains? Check.
> Dizziness? Check (mild).
> Fatigue? Check, and check again.
> Meet the criteria for testing in Ontario? Nope.
> 
> Fuck me.


Wow. I have a chest tickle and a minor sore throat, AHS is calling me for my test appointment in the next couple days a nurse told me.

I'm sick again, after having thought I was fully recovered, with the same goddam thing I had 3 weeks ago. I'm back in isolation today. Have at no point ever had a fever tho, so not worried it's covid. Except when I am.


----------



## colchar

keto said:


> Wow. I have a chest tickle and a minor sore throat, AHS is calling me for my test appointment in the next couple days a nurse told me.
> 
> I'm sick again, after having thought I was fully recovered, with the same goddam thing I had 3 weeks ago. I'm back in isolation today. Have at no point ever had a fever tho, so not worried it's covid. Except when I am.



Yeah even with the expanded guidelines I do not qualify to be tested here in Ontario. In Alberta, if you have so much as a fever they will test you.

My left knee has been giving me a lot of trouble lately so I had been planning to go see my family doctor. I will call them tomorrow to make an appointment for that, and to see what they say about the other symptoms. They might just advise me to stay the hell away until I am better.


----------



## davetcan

colchar said:


> Head cold? Check.
> Sore throat? Check.
> Full, almost choking feeling in throat? Check.
> Fever? Check (mild).
> Headache? Check, check, and check again (I get migraines so have some pretty potent medications and they aren't doing jack shit).
> Difficulty breathing? Check (mild).
> Nausea? Check.
> Aches and pains? Check.
> Dizziness? Check (mild).
> Fatigue? Check, and check again.
> Meet the criteria for testing in Ontario? Nope.
> 
> Fuck me.


That is unbelievable. Hang in there (not that you have a choice).


----------



## davetcan

colchar said:


> Yeah even with the expanded guidelines I do not qualify to be tested here in Ontario. In Alberta, if you have so much as a fever they will test you.
> 
> My left knee has been giving me a lot of trouble lately so I had been planning to go see my family doctor. I will call them tomorrow to make an appointment for that, and to see what they say about the other symptoms. They might just advise me to stay the hell away until I am better.


I'll be shocked if they let you in the office.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> Yeah even with the expanded guidelines I do not qualify to be tested here in Ontario. In Alberta, if you have so much as a fever they will test you.
> 
> My left knee has been giving me a lot of trouble lately so I had been planning to go see my family doctor. I will call them tomorrow to make an appointment for that, and to see what they say about the other symptoms. They might just advise me to stay the hell away until I am better.


Stay safe. Hope you have a speedy recovery.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Stay safe. Hope you have a speedy recovery.



Thanks.

I called my doctor's office to check their hours, and they are closed during the pandemic. They are doing telephone consultations only. It makes sense for them to be closed, the other doctor is past retirement age and my doctor is the same age as my mother (78). He should have retired years ago, but keeps signing on for another two years (he is done for good next summer because he needs his knees replaced). 

So I will either call them tomorrow, or call Telehealth.


----------



## colchar

davetcan said:


> That is unbelievable. Hang in there (not that you have a choice).



I took the self-assessment and it says I don't meet the criteria. But I took it again and included an underlying condition (asthma/COPD) and it said I should call my doctor or Telehealth. I will do so tomorrow. Right now I am drinking the world's biggest mug of Neo Citran and hoping that I fall asleep soon.


----------



## colchar

davetcan said:


> I'll be shocked if they let you in the office.



See above, their office is closed for the duration of this pandemic. Personally, I wouldn't have let my ass in regardless.


----------



## gtrguy

colchar said:


> Head cold? Check.
> Sore throat? Check.
> Full, almost choking feeling in throat? Check.
> Fever? Check (mild).
> Headache? Check, check, and check again (I get migraines so have some pretty potent medications and they aren't doing jack shit).
> Difficulty breathing? Check (mild).
> Nausea? Check.
> Aches and pains? Check.
> Dizziness? Check (mild).
> Fatigue? Check, and check again.
> Meet the criteria for testing in Ontario? Nope.
> 
> Fuck me.


Hey man, while I don’t always agree with your points of view, I sincerely hope you make out okay. Make that Telehealth call and don’t downplay how you’re feeling. Get tested if you possibly can and hang in there.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> Head cold? Check.
> Sore throat? Check.
> Full, almost choking feeling in throat? Check.
> Fever? Check (mild).
> Headache? Check, check, and check again (I get migraines so have some pretty potent medications and they aren't doing jack shit).
> Difficulty breathing? Check (mild).
> Nausea? Check.
> Aches and pains? Check.
> Dizziness? Check (mild).
> Fatigue? Check, and check again.
> Meet the criteria for testing in Ontario? Nope.
> 
> Fuck me.


Not 100% sure on this but with those symptoms you'd be checked right away here. My right knee is acting up also so when I go in for a scan in May my Dr. is requesting they xray the knee too. It now clicks when I walk sometimes and when I stand up after sitting down for a while. Ibuprofen and Absorbine Jr. are helping with that.


----------



## High/Deaf

colchar said:


> Head cold? Check.
> Sore throat? Check.
> Full, almost choking feeling in throat? Check.
> Fever? Check (mild).
> Headache? Check, check, and check again (I get migraines so have some pretty potent medications and they aren't doing jack shit).
> Difficulty breathing? Check (mild).
> Nausea? Check.
> Aches and pains? Check.
> Dizziness? Check (mild).
> Fatigue? Check, and check again.
> Meet the criteria for testing in Ontario? Nope.
> 
> Fuck me.


Do you smell? I heard that's one of the symptoms. 




Oh wait, my bad, it's 'can you smell'.


----------



## High/Deaf

colchar said:


> Yeah even with the expanded guidelines I do not qualify to be tested here in Ontario. In Alberta, if you have so much as a fever they will test you.
> 
> My left knee has been giving me a lot of trouble lately so I had been planning to go see my family doctor. I will call them tomorrow to make an appointment for that, and to see what they say about the other symptoms. They might just advise me to stay the hell away until I am better.


I've had a couple of Telehealth appointments. Not so bad if you already know your GP and know how to read each other a bit. A virtual / video connection makes that a bit harder (as we see here regularly). No fricken pop-sickle though, unless you stock up yourself.


----------



## gtrguy

colchar said:


> I took the self-assessment and it says I don't meet the criteria. But I took it again and included an underlying condition (asthma/COPD) and it said I should call my doctor or Telehealth. I will do so tomorrow. Right now I am drinking the world's biggest mug of Neo Citran and hoping that I fall asleep soon.


Hey man, feeling any better today? Did you make that call?


----------



## boyscout

The pandemic has just taken on a whole new level of serious. We can ALL see the devastation in the photograph at the following link. Too close to the heart for me. I get it now.

Toronto area residents wait in huge lines at Krispy Kreme despite pandemic


----------



## mhammer

Never had one myself, but I imagine they must be REALLY good donuts, or else maybe there's oxycontin in the glaze.


----------



## Electraglide

boyscout said:


> The pandemic has just taken on a whole new level of serious. We can ALL see the devastation in the photograph at the following link. Too close to the heart for me. I get it now.
> 
> Toronto area residents wait in huge lines at Krispy Kreme despite pandemic


They all seem to be practicing social distancing thou I didn't know Toronto had that many off duty undercover cops. Had a Krispy Kreme once years ago....that was enough. I remember when line ups for Tim's drive thru in Ft. Mac were that bad......but that was before the fire.


----------



## keto

I bet they're all turning off the car every time they move up a car length too


----------



## Ship of fools

Watched morning news and heard that in South Korea those who have had the covid-19 and recovered are now showing and testing positive again for covid-19 ( 141 ) of them. So as I was thinking before because this is a virus that it mighty bite you again seems like a real possibility. I'm praying that it it might just be the way they are testing but still very frightening in some ways.
More than 140 seemingly recovered patients have retested positive for Covid-19, says South Korea


----------



## Milkman

boyscout said:


> The pandemic has just taken on a whole new level of serious. We can ALL see the devastation in the photograph at the following link. Too close to the heart for me. I get it now.
> 
> Toronto area residents wait in huge lines at Krispy Kreme despite pandemic



Wow, super intelligent reason to risk your life.

They _do _make the best doughnuts I have ever eaten, but holy crap what a stupid reason to get sick.


----------



## Guitar101

Ship of fools said:


> Watched morning news and heard that in South Korea those who have had the covid-19 and recovered are now showing and testing positive again for covid-19 ( 141 ) of them. So as I was thinking before because this is a virus that it mighty bite you again seems like a real possibility. I'm praying that it it might just be the way they are testing but still very frightening in some ways.
> More than 140 seemingly recovered patients have retested positive for Covid-19, says South Korea


They had a couple of experts commenting on that this morning. They both agreed that the tests may have shown remnants of the virus but it probably won't make them sick again. Let's hope so.


----------



## cdntac

keto said:


> Wow. I have a chest tickle and a minor sore throat, AHS is calling me for my test appointment in the next couple days a nurse told me.


Iirc, you and I posted previously about having similar viruses earlier in the year. 

And once again I have exactly the same symptoms as you’re describing. The chest thing seems to come and go every few days. 

My wife also has been having the occasional day with a sore throat. She was pretty sick about 7 weeks ago. 

I’m thinking (hoping) our throat issue is probably related to being in the house so much now with a wood stove. It’s relatively dry in here.


----------



## cdntac

colchar said:


> Head cold? Check.
> Sore throat? Check.
> Full, almost choking feeling in throat? Check.
> Fever? Check (mild).
> Headache? Check, check, and check again (I get migraines so have some pretty potent medications and they aren't doing jack shit).
> Difficulty breathing? Check (mild).
> Nausea? Check.
> Aches and pains? Check.
> Dizziness? Check (mild).
> Fatigue? Check, and check again.
> Meet the criteria for testing in Ontario? Nope.
> 
> Fuck me.


Asking out of ignorance, if you were tested, what does that really do for you other than confirm it and you get added to a stat?

We figure if we get symptoms similar to yours that it’s just safe to assume we’re infected. 

We’ve also talked about what to do if one of us do get sick. I figure if I get it, my wife’s probably infected too and vice versa. She believes the sick one locks themselves in the upstairs bedroom. 

I’m leaning towards just living like normal in the house since we’ve been side-by-side all this time now. She’s currently covered in my germs and I’m covered in hers.


----------



## colchar

cdntac said:


> Asking out of ignorance, if you were tested, what does that really do for you other than confirm it and you get added to a stat?


It tells me whether I have to isolate or not. If I am tested and it comes out positive, I have to stay the hell away from people. This includes my elderly mother who lives with me. I also have to disinfect the hell out of the house, and to put things aside that only I touch.

If I am tested and it comes out negative then I just have a shitty cold or something. And while I will do my best not to pass that on to anyone, I do not have to go into isolation. Plus, if my mother were to begin to exhibit symptoms I would know it was just a cold.


----------



## colchar

High/Deaf said:


> Do you smell? I heard that's one of the symptoms.



Well I haven't been out in a couple of days so haven't showered so...................


----------



## colchar

gtrguy said:


> Hey man, feeling any better today?


A little, but not much.




> Did you make that call?



Not yet. I was up really late last night and then was up early to take the dog out back, so I went back to sleep. I haven't been up long (still on my first coffee). Once I've become something resembling a functioning human being I will start calling (apparently it is tough to get through to them though).


----------



## vadsy

Is this your second time getting sick in less than a month,.. in isolation of all things?


----------



## cdntac

colchar said:


> It tells me whether I have to isolate or not. If I am tested and it comes out positive, I have to stay the hell away from people. This includes my elderly mother who lives with me. I also have to disinfect the hell out of the house, and to put things aside that only I touch.
> 
> If I am tested and it comes out negative then I just have a shitty cold or something. And while I will do my best not to pass that on to anyone, I do not have to go into isolation. Plus, if my mother were to begin to exhibit symptoms I would know it was just a cold.


Good point. I was just going with the assumption that symptoms like that means positive (tested or not) and subsequent quarantine.


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> Never had one myself, but I imagine they must be REALLY good donuts, or else maybe there's oxycontin in the glaze.



They're good, but not great. And certainly not worth waiting in that line for.


----------



## keto

cdntac said:


> Asking out of ignorance, if you were tested, what does that really do for you other than confirm it and you get added to a stat?
> 
> We figure if we get symptoms similar to yours that it’s just safe to assume we’re infected.
> 
> We’ve also talked about what to do if one of us do get sick. I figure if I get it, my wife’s probably infected too and vice versa. She believes the sick one locks themselves in the upstairs bedroom.
> 
> I’m leaning towards just living like normal in the house since we’ve been side-by-side all this time now. She’s currently covered in my germs and I’m covered in hers.



For me, 
1) if I have it and survive, I'll be confident until proven otherwise that I can't get it again
2) mrs has been in denial about her dry cough (and, in fact though I'm pretty sure I got whatever this is from her via her daycare business), and wouldn't have anything to do with me while I was sick, other than throw a plate on my desk occasionally. She got over it that hurdle eventually, no harm no foul. If there's a bug in the house, we both have it pretty much no possible escape.

But if I have it, she's also had it, and won't likely get it again. That would give us some level of confidence that she could open the day home back up, which was closed the first day I showed symptoms. Would relieve anxiety about it for both of us, at least short term.

Still, I do *not* think I have covid19. At no point ever through all these weeks have I had a fever, nor was I exposed to anyone I know had it or was around anyone they knew had it. That said, it would sure be nice to know I was a 'low symptoms' case.


----------



## colchar

Milkman said:


> Wow, super intelligent reason to risk your life.



How is anyone risking their life?

If they leave the house and get directly into their car, stay in their car the entire time they are out, and then go right back into their house when they get home what is wrong with it?

Going for a drive is a great way to break the monotony while remaining self isolated.


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> They're good, but not great. And certainly not worth waiting in that line for.


Never had one, and unless they make one without any glaze or coating, or if there is a cure for diabetes, I doubt I ever will have one.

And just exactly _how_ fresh would they be once you finally make your way from the tail of the snake to the head? Ten cars, I can see being a little patient. But _tha_t many cars?

Although, now that I think of it, maybe the folks at the end are thinking to themselves "Yeah, by the time I work my way to the front of the line, they probably _will _have a cure for diabetes!"


----------



## Milkman

colchar said:


> How is anyone risking their life?
> 
> If they leave the house and get directly into their car, stay in their car the entire time they are out, and then go right back into their house when they get home what is wrong with it?
> 
> Going for a drive is a great way to break the monotony while remaining self isolated.


Are the virtual doughnuts being beamed into their cars? There's no such thing as zero contact and going out for doughnuts is not the same as driving you car. I see the social distancing, but with so many varying opinions as to how easily the virus is spread via air and how long it can last on surfaces....


Go right ahead man. It's a freaking doughnut. I'll stay home or at least just drive by and shake my head.


----------



## High/Deaf

Ship of fools said:


> Watched morning news and heard that in South Korea those who have had the covid-19 and recovered are now showing and testing positive again for covid-19 ( 141 ) of them. So as I was thinking before because this is a virus that it mighty bite you again seems like a real possibility. I'm praying that it it might just be the way they are testing but still very frightening in some ways.
> More than 140 seemingly recovered patients have retested positive for Covid-19, says South Korea


Dr Henry mentioned two things yesterday.

-- This virus may attack other organs besides the lungs. The lungs are the obvious thing but there are some unusual symptoms in a few cases.

-- They are now paying a lot of attention to the serious patients about 3 days after they first go into hospital. That seems to be when people either make a turn for the better or get very sick very quickly. If the latter, a lot of intervention is required very quickly.

She also said this is a particularly difficult virus to get a handle on, at least right now. They may never have a vaccine for it. We may have to rely on herd immunity (people hopefully having antibodies that protect them) which will take a very long time. We should all expect a very different, very unusual summer. May as well get used to that fact as soon as possible.

I like her, she doesn't pull any punches. A lot of what she says isn't comforting, but it needs to be said. Tomorrow they are releasing their modeling, pt II. No "Breaking News" but new information requires a re-jig of the previous model, which is at least a couple of weeks old.


----------



## colchar

cdntac said:


> Good point. I was just going with the assumption that symptoms like that means positive (tested or not) and subsequent quarantine.



The problem is that this thing seems to mimic other maladies, such as the common cold. In fact, I have seen a bunch of accounts in which people who tested positive said they had just thought they had a cold. So without a test there is no way for someone to know if they have something serious, or something that we all get on a regular basis.


----------



## allthumbs56

Guitar101 said:


> They had a couple of experts commenting on that this morning. They both agreed that the tests may have shown remnants of the virus but it probably won't make them sick again. Let's hope so.


It seems that this virus makes a habit of proving the smartest and best intentioned wrong.


----------



## allthumbs56

cdntac said:


> Good point. I was just going with the assumption that symptoms like that means positive (tested or not) and subsequent quarantine.


The other very important thing about getting tested is to retrace your steps and inform/test everyone you came in contact with - a PITA, but pretty important in getting in front of this thing.


----------



## Doug Gifford

mhammer said:


> Never had one myself, but I imagine they must be REALLY good donuts, or else maybe there's oxycontin in the glaze.


Dunno. For me, these are the best. Just like my grandmother used to make. Direct from the bakery is best, but you can get them at area stores. But if you buy them at a store, they aren't crispy anymore. So you toast them in the toaster and they're just like new again. Ymm.

Fifty years on and still frying high: The Athens fried cake | TVO.org


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> Never had one, and unless they make one without any glaze or coating, or if there is a cure for diabetes, I doubt I ever will have one.
> 
> And just exactly _how_ fresh would they be once you finally make your way from the tail of the snake to the head? Ten cars, I can see being a little patient. But _tha_t many cars?
> 
> Although, now that I think of it, maybe the folks at the end are thinking to themselves "Yeah, by the time I work my way to the front of the line, they probably _will _have a cure for diabetes!"



They are in constant production in their stores (the machines are visible) so they are always nice and fresh.


----------



## Milkman

For me there's nothing even close to a fresh Krispy Kreme. When they were first trying to penetrate the Canadian market they had one in Mississauga and one in London. Those were the two closest to me.

On two Saturday mornings (that I can recall) my son and I jumped in the car and drove the 50 miles or so to Mississauga and bought a couple of boxes, but the real deal is grabbing a fresh one just out of the oil.

Absolutely melt in your mouth....


----------



## mhammer

Myself and a bunch of other "chubby-boys" with Type II chubby-boy's disease were referred to a hospital workshop with a dietician on eating properly. She went around the room and asked us all what our personal health goals were. The responses were all whatever the medical version of politically correct is: lose weight, feel better, live longer, yadda, yadda. I ended up being the last one she asked. "My personal health goal? I want to eat a big fat greasy donut with some kind of frosting on it, at least _once_ more before I die." And all the chubby-boys in the room were nodding their heads with a "What* he* said" look on their faces. Our pleasures shouldn't kill us, and we shouldn't demand more than our fair share of pleasure, but life without _any_ pleasure is no life at all.


----------



## boyscout

colchar said:


> They are in constant production in their stores (the machines are visible) so they are always nice and fresh.


@mhammer, what @colchar said. Since each Krispy Kreme store has its own cooking line with fryer and glazing waterfall, you could almost certainly ask staff to pull donuts for you before they go through the waterfall. They wouldn't be as good as they are with killer glaze on them but you'd still get a BIG part of the unique and delicious Krispy Kreme experience of warm pillowy soft donuts fresh off the line.

The challenge may be to find one of their stores. They have over a thousand in the U.S. but only about ten here. When they opened here roughly 20 years ago they were subjected to a prolonged withering reception in the media asserting that they were deeply unhealthy, a campaign so penetrating (and not much more true than it is for other donuts) that I've always believed that one or more of Canada's donut kings was behind it. They soon closed several of the handful of stores they had opened, and have been just creeping into the market since, so there may not be any store around you. There are several in Toronto. It'd be worth the drive.

Now back to regularly scheduled programming.


----------



## colchar

boyscout said:


> @mhammer, what @colchar said. Since each Krispy Kreme store has its own cooking line with fryer and glazing waterfall, you could almost certainly ask staff to pull donuts for you before they go through the waterfall. They wouldn't be as good as they are with killer glaze on them but you'd still get a BIG part of the unique and delicious Krispy Kreme experience of warm pillowy soft donuts fresh off the line.
> 
> The challenge may be to find one of their stores. They have over a thousand in the U.S. but only about ten here. When they opened here roughly 20 years ago they were subjected to a prolonged withering reception in the media asserting that they were deeply unhealthy, a campaign so penetrating (and not much more true than it is for other donuts) that I've always believed that one or more of Canada's donut kings was behind it. They soon closed several of the handful of stores they had opened, and have been just creeping into the market since, so there may not be any store around you. There are several in Toronto. It'd be worth the drive.
> 
> Now back to regularly scheduled programming.



For those who don't mind the glaze they are also available at Costco assuming, of course, that anyone here is stupid enough to go anywhere near a Costco right now.


----------



## boyscout

colchar said:


> For those who don't mind the glaze they are also available at Costco assuming, of course, that anyone here is stupid enough to go anywhere near a Costco right now.


In Costco, and sometimes found on special displays in grocery stores.

If taken home and nuked one at a time in a 1200-watt microwave oven for exactly eight seconds they are almost as good as they are fresh in the stores.

I had to eat a whole lot of them, over a period of years, to develop the advice I'm giving away for free above.

Now back to regularly scheduled programming.


----------



## Milkman

Yeah they were not supported and I always thought it was just brand loyalty on the part of Tim Hortons customers that caused that.

People who like Tims like it. To me there's pretty well nothing in their menu I want, definitely not their coffee but I have coworkers and well, a spouse, who swear by their Timmies.

Maybe because I spend so much time in the USA, I had many opportunities to find a Krispy Kreme in various cities and states.

Sadly I'm borderline diabetic so I had to basically swear them off.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Once safer than gold, Canadian real estate braces for reckoning - BNN Bloomberg


----------



## davetcan

Sunny Ways.



GuitarsCanada said:


> Once safer than gold, Canadian real estate braces for reckoning - BNN Bloomberg


----------



## GuitarsCanada

davetcan said:


> Sunny Ways.


Writing has been on the wall for a very long time.


----------



## davetcan

GuitarsCanada said:


> Writing has been on the wall for a very long time.


Yep, debt has become an acceptable way of life.


----------



## keto

Contact tracing software for all! Apple and Google have an ambitious plan to help officials track coronavirus — here's what needs to happen now

I imagine we'll just roll over and do it up here, but can you imagine how this is going to play out with our neighbours to the south?


----------



## davetcan

Half the country will go for it.



keto said:


> Contact tracing software for all! Apple and Google have an ambitious plan to help officials track coronavirus — here's what needs to happen now
> 
> I imagine we'll just roll over and do it up here, but can you imagine how this is going to play out with our neighbours to the south?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

A glimmer of good news. Still a ways off, but progress.

Ontario researchers developing COVID-19 vaccine delivered by nasal spray


----------



## Wardo

“Can’t wait for interest rate need some quick cash now.”

Tommy Vu


----------



## gtrguy

colchar said:


> It tells me whether I have to isolate or not. If I am tested and it comes out positive, I have to stay the hell away from people. This includes my elderly mother who lives with me. I also have to disinfect the hell out of the house, and to put things aside that only I touch.


@colchar just wondering if you had a chance to make that call? How was the experience?


----------



## Electraglide

davetcan said:


> Half the country will go for it.


But first they have to get it on your phone.....if your phone will accept it.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Electraglide said:


> But first they have to get it on your phone.....if your phone will accept it.


If you have a phone.


----------



## colchar

gtrguy said:


> @colchar just wondering if you had a chance to make that call? How was the experience?



Couldn't get through so gave up for a while. Went outside with the dog to get him some exercise. Was just in the backyard so I was able to sit on the stairs to the deck, but even then I was exhausted when we were done so I just slept off and on after coming back in. Didn't eat anything for dinner until after 9pm, and even then only a sandwich. I'll try calling again in the morning.


----------



## Electraglide

Doug Gifford said:


> If you have a phone.


And your phone is apple or android.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Electraglide said:


> And your phone is apple or android.


mine is landline


----------



## Electraglide




----------



## colchar

@GuitarsCanada or @davetcan if this is not allowed please delete it.

I have absolutely no affiliation with this campaign, but thought it would be a good idea to post this here in case some of our members wanted to order these t-shirts in support of a worthy cause. The proceeds go to purchasing and distributing PPE, and we all know how badly that is needed right now in hospitals, care homes, etc. The t-shirts are only $25 each and if we're all honest, we've all wasted a lot more than $25 on dumber shit at various times. At least this time the money is going to a good cause.

ConquerCOVID19 - Sourcing Priority Needs During COVID-19 Pandemic


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> @GuitarsCanada or @davetcan if this is not allowed please delete it.
> 
> I have absolutely no affiliation with this campaign, but thought it would be a good idea to post this here in case some of our members wanted to order these t-shirts in support of a worthy cause. The proceeds go to purchasing and distributing PPE, and we all know how badly that is needed right now in hospitals, care homes, etc. The t-shirts are only $25 each and if we're all honest, we've all wasted a lot more than $25 on dumber shit at various times. At least this time the money is going to a good cause.
> 
> ConquerCOVID19 - Sourcing Priority Needs During COVID-19 Pandemic


I wonder if this came out before or after Alberta made their donations? If you go see your Dr. and he looks at your knee just be warned there is a spot on the inside about the middle and just below the knee cap that might put you on the floor when your Dr. presses on it. My Dr. did that to me today when he looked at my knee. I stood up and my knee clicked, he pressed a few spots and when he pressed that one I went to the floor. I'm now booked for xrays and scoping the end of May.


----------



## colchar

Electraglide said:


> I wonder if this came out before or after Alberta made their donations?


No idea, but I saw people wearing these in news stories (Hayley, Ford, etc.) so assume it was going on before the donations. 




> If you go see your Dr. and he looks at your knee just be warned there is a spot on the inside about the middle and just below the knee cap that might put you on the floor when your Dr. presses on it. My Dr. did that to me today when he looked at my knee. I stood up and my knee clicked, he pressed a few spots and when he pressed that one I went to the floor. I'm now booked for xrays and scoping the end of May.



Family doctor is closed until the pandemic is over (heis the same age as my mother so it makes sense) so I won't get my knee looked at for a while.


----------



## keto

Dow futures rally 800 points after Gilead coronavirus drug reportedly shows effectiveness


----------



## vadsy

keto said:


> Dow futures rally 800 points after Gilead coronavirus drug reportedly shows effectiveness


if it pans out, we'll be mixing this stuff locally


----------



## LanceT

vadsy said:


> if it pans out, we'll be mixing this stuff locally


Only if they keep quiet on the teflon.


----------



## vadsy

I think it’s time to switch it up to steel


----------



## davetcan

keto said:


> Dow futures rally 800 points after Gilead coronavirus drug reportedly shows effectiveness


This one focuses more on the drug than the economy.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/16/health/coronavirus-remdesivir-trial/index.html


----------



## colchar

Got through to Telehealth. Just got off the phone with the nurse who called me back, and I have been told to go for a test today.


----------



## davetcan

Good luck


----------



## boyscout

davetcan said:


> Half the country will go for it.


I'll bet that the other half won't have any choice about it. The framework enabling the tracking will arrive on all of our phones in operating system updates, little doubt about that. The software to collect the data and report it somewhere may be hard-wired into the operating system too. "Temporarily" of course, since "your privacy is most important to us". It's possible that third-party developers, with or without our knowledge, may employ the framework too.

There's a CBC Marketplace episode - might be available online - in which the CBC easily created a small and innocuous iPhone app and then asked people on the street to install it on their phone. Those who did were soon shocked when the CBC crew 'fessed up and proved to them that they could monitor texts, pull off contact lists, and more. The users had just clicked 'Yes' on very-standard installation permissions agreement that allowed CBC to do that.


----------



## mhammer

Is there more baking going on in your respective households these days?

I ask because both supermarkets I went to this morning had bare shelves where the flour was supposed to be. Toilet paper, meanwhile, was in abundance.

Is this chain-specific (Food Basics, Freshco), a stocking issue, a production issue, a consumer-demand issue?


----------



## Judas68fr

My wife has got a few friends who are on a baking frenzy. Meanwhile, people like us used to doing baking a couple times a week are struggling to find flour and yeast. We're running low on yeast, and I haven't seen any on shelves in my corner of the woods in at least 4-5 weeks now...


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> Is there more baking going on in your respective households these days?
> 
> I ask because both supermarkets I went to this morning had bare shelves where the flour was supposed to be. Toilet paper, meanwhile, was in abundance.
> 
> Is this chain-specific (Food Basics, Freshco), a stocking issue, a production issue, a consumer-demand issue?


Perhaps working women forced to stay home are returning to their natural June Cleaver roots?


----------



## vadsy

Judas68fr said:


> My wife has got a few friends who are on a baking frenzy. Meanwhile, people like us used to doing baking a couple times a week are struggling to find flour and yeast. We're running low on yeast, and I haven't seen any on shelves in my corner of the woods in at least 4-5 weeks now...


Same. Kinda. Lots of flour, low on yeast


----------



## boyscout

mhammer said:


> Is there more baking going on in your respective households these days?
> 
> I ask because both supermarkets I went to this morning had bare shelves where the flour was supposed to be. Toilet paper, meanwhile, was in abundance.
> 
> Is this chain-specific (Food Basics, Freshco), a stocking issue, a production issue, a consumer-demand issue?


Flour has been in and out of stock for weeks in the large Zehrs where I shop. Self-isolated people with time to bake and eat probably ARE baking more, but it's likely that flour's part in making staple foods that could become hard to get figures into the demand too.


----------



## vadsy

allthumbs56 said:


> Perhaps working women forced to stay home are returning to their natural June Cleaver roots?


lol, weird thing to say. old school ‘get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich’ kinda


----------



## keto

Yup flour, yeast among the items rarely on shelves anywhere, for a month now. Lots of stories about it to be found. Producers say no shortages, are hiring extra help to run the mills extra shifts.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> Got through to Telehealth. Just got off the phone with the nurse who called me back, and I have been told to go for a test today.


Good luck on the test. I hope you have access to the Cole's notes to study for it. (A little education humour to try and cheer you up)


----------



## colchar

At the drive thru test centre now. Maybe bringing my dog for the car ride wasn't such a good idea as he is being a pain in the arse.

Then again, perhaps taking another piss before arriving would've been smart.


----------



## jb welder

colchar said:


> Then again, perhaps taking another piss before arriving would've been smart.


Perfect thing for heating up that lukewarm cup of T-Ho's.


----------



## vadsy

jb welder said:


> Perfect thing for heating up that lukewarm cup of T-Ho's.


Let the dog piss in it. Turn it into a Latte


----------



## High/Deaf

colchar said:


> At the drive thru test centre now. Maybe bringing my dog for the car ride wasn't such a good idea as he is being a pain in the arse.
> 
> Then again, perhaps taking another piss before arriving would've been smart.


Demand a piss test, too?

I was gonna hit you with 'the teacher becomes the student' but Jim's quicker on the draw.


----------



## mhammer

Fingers crossed for a quick result and an "It's just a regular flu" outcome...or less.

A cousin of mine in Montreal suffered a substantial heart attack on Tuesday. I was told there was 100% blockage in several principal arteries, and substantial heart-tissue damage. They put in two stents. That sounds rather insufficient for what was described/relayed to me, but then I imagine they're not keen on tying up the surgery room and surgeons these days.. Normally, one would be released the same day as an angioplasty and stent procedure, but they have him intubated and on an ECMO machine ( Extracorporeal membrane oxygenation - Wikipedia ), so he'll be in for a while longer.

The irony is, he's an MD, Quebec needs all hands on deck, and he's just the sort that would volunteer for duty. A good thing he's heavily sedated so he doesn't have to feel guilty about being out of service, and doesn't have to worry about one of his daughters who lives in NYC.


----------



## colchar

jb welder said:


> Perfect thing for heating up that lukewarm cup of T-Ho's.



My cup of Tim's is delicious today, but I somehow suspect that it is contributing to my need to piss.

Only about half a dozen vehicles in front of me now, and thankfully (although it is incredibly stupid of them) the Woodbine Centre mall next door is wide open so I can pop in for a leak once I leave here.


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> My cup of Tim's is delicious today, but I somehow suspect that it is contributing to my need to piss.
> 
> Only about half a dozen vehicles in front of me now, and thankfully (although it is incredibly stupid of them) the Woodbine Centre mall next door is wide open so I can pop in for a leak once I leave here.


Be sure that you're not in a line-up for Krispy Kremes by mistake


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> so I can pop in for a leak once I leave here.


It's funny (not ha ha funny) how the proximity of a bathroom becomes more important as you age.


----------



## mhammer

I guess that must mean they're NOT giving out a Krispy Kreme donut to every customer for testing. 

Dammit, Chris beat me to the punch by seconds!


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> It's funny (not ha ha funny) how the proximity of a bathroom becomes more important as you age.



The mall is about 150 yards away. If I am not in to be tested in the next 15-20 minutes I'm choosing the third tree on my left and am just letting it all hang out.


----------



## oldjoat

drink fast ... and use the empty tim's cup ... lid it and put in the holder .


----------



## keto

colchar said:


> At the drive thru test centre now. Maybe bringing my dog for the car ride wasn't such a good idea as he is being a pain in the arse.
> 
> Then again, perhaps taking another piss before arriving would've been smart.


We are instructed a) no pets and b) no washrooms. Surprised you weren't told same(?)

Mine was an hour ago, 2 lane drive thru, converted Eco station, 10 cars at a time. Lots of city employees around the place no PPE, doing the doors and whatever else needs doing I guess. Nurses in the expected PPE doing the tests. Swab was throat, not nasal.

To be clear, pretty sure I don't have, but have been symptomatic off and on for over 3 weeks - though at no time have I had a fever. A positive test would be an actual relief, I've had it long enough that I likely don't need any more in depth care.


----------



## Electraglide

keto said:


> Yup flour, yeast among the items rarely on shelves anywhere, for a month now. Lots of stories about it to be found. Producers say no shortages, are hiring extra help to run the mills extra shifts.


The bulk food store I shop at has yet to run out of yeast and they have probably 8 to 10 different types of flour, both for bread machines and making bread the regular way. Also for making pancakes, brownies, cookies etc..


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> The mall is about 150 yards away. If I am not in to be tested in the next 15-20 minutes I'm choosing the third tree on my left and am just letting it all hang out.


Do you have a little mask for your tackle?


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> The mall is about 150 yards away. If I am not in to be tested in the next 15-20 minutes I'm choosing the third tree on my left and am just letting it all hang out.


You'd best hope that the mall is open and the bathrooms are open. The mall close to me is shut except for Wallyworld, Shoppers and BMO. Maybe a clinic. All the bathrooms are closed.


----------



## allthumbs56

oldjoat said:


> drink fast ... and use the empty tim's cup ... lid it and put in the holder .


Hand it to the tester and say "Here's my urine sample too". Always give a little extra, I say


----------



## Electraglide

keto said:


> We are instructed a) no pets and b) no washrooms. Surprised you weren't told same(?)
> 
> Mine was an hour ago, 2 lane drive thru, converted Eco station, 10 cars at a time. Lots of city employees around the place no PPE, doing the doors and whatever else needs doing I guess. Nurses in the expected PPE doing the tests. Swab was throat, not nasal.
> 
> To be clear, pretty sure I don't have, but have been symptomatic off and on for over 3 weeks - though at no time have I had a fever. A positive test would be an actual relief, I've had it long enough that I likely don't need any more in depth care.


Is it still by AHS referral only? And do you have to have a car or can you walk up.


----------



## keto

Electraglide said:


> Is it still by AHS referral only? And do you have to have a car or can you walk up.


By appointment - they give an hour window, and from the looks of how the lineup went, they know how many people they'll churn thru in an hour. In car only, keep windows closed until instructed to roll down for the swab. I even did my ID just by holding my health card up against the closed window, didn't talk to anyone until the nurse warned she was going to make me gag. And she did.


----------



## Milkman

keto said:


> By appointment - they give an hour window, and from the looks of how the lineup went, they know how many people they'll churn thru in an hour. In car only, keep windows closed until instructed to roll down for the swab. I even did my ID just by holding my health card up against the closed window, didn't talk to anyone until the nurse warned she was going to make me gag. And she did.



Wow, must have been one _ugly _nurse.

Good luck.


----------



## Electraglide

keto said:


> By appointment - they give an hour window, and from the looks of how the lineup went, they know how many people they'll churn thru in an hour. In car only, keep windows closed until instructed to roll down for the swab. I even did my ID just by holding my health card up against the closed window, didn't talk to anyone until the nurse warned she was going to make me gag. And she did.


I guess they tell you on the phone which one to go to also.


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> Wow, must have been one _ugly _nurse.
> 
> Good luck.


At least it was a she.


----------



## Milkman

Electraglide said:


> At least it was a she.


Wow, that went downhill fast, LOL.


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> Wow, that went downhill fast, LOL.


Hey, it's only a gag.


----------



## keto

Milkman said:


> Wow, must have been one _ugly _nurse.
> 
> Good luck.


Little cutie (near as I can tell behind the PPE) I'm guessing straight out of school, had someone with her telling her how to do this n that.



Electraglide said:


> I guess they tell you on the phone which one to go to also.


Ayup. In my challenge thread, we talk about this - another guy from way aways got sent to a place near me. I had to go from outside the Henday west end to Sherwood Park (outside the Henday east). No apparent rhyme or reason.



Electraglide said:


> At least it was a she.


Ayup.


----------



## tomee2

We bake all the time and I noticed the flour shortage here in early March. Finally got a big bag at costco last week. Dish soap is something I still can't find. The kind for hand washing in the sink. 
Got 99.9% rubbing alcohol the other day at shoppers, so now I can finally shellac the poplar tele body I've been refinishing very slowly.


----------



## vadsy

keto said:


> Ayup. In my challenge thread, we talk about this - another guy from way aways got sent to a place near me. I had to go from outside the Henday west end to Sherwood Park (outside the Henday east). No apparent rhyme or reason.


did they send you to the temp setup at the recycling depot?


----------



## vadsy

tomee2 said:


> We bake all the time and I noticed the flour shortage here in early March. Finally got a big bag at costco last week. Dish soap is something I still can't find. The kind for hand washing in the sink.
> Got 99.9% rubbing alcohol the other day at shoppers, so now I can finally shellac the poplar tele body I've been refinishing very slowly.


The Safeway has had limited, but at least had, smaller bags of flour and today they had two pallets of the bakery special. Plenty of dish soap but not full shelves.










I put on my mask and headed out for the weekly deal of beer and grocery run. I have to say that I think I'm going to start goin twice a week. The bags should be lighter to carry.

Things that are concerning,
-hand sanitizer no longer comes in fancy bottles, has a weird industrial look. Hard pass. Probably doesn't work as well as the good looking stuff.
-yeast is still out. I guess I'll have to go to another store. F
-24 pack of Dr Pepper was not on sale, had to pay full price. F
-worcestershire is all out. The end times are here.

my mask


----------



## mhammer

Product idea - moisturizing antibacterial soap. While packing my groceries at the checkout, one of the cashier girls came over to talk to the woman at my checkout, and was complaining that her hands have gotten dry and cracked from all the washing.


----------



## colchar

keto said:


> We are instructed a) no pets and b) no washrooms. Surprised you weren't told same(?)
> 
> Mine was an hour ago, 2 lane drive thru, converted Eco station, 10 cars at a time. Lots of city employees around the place no PPE, doing the doors and whatever else needs doing I guess. Nurses in the expected PPE doing the tests. Swab was throat, not nasal.
> 
> To be clear, pretty sure I don't have, but have been symptomatic off and on for over 3 weeks - though at no time have I had a fever. A positive test would be an actual relief, I've had it long enough that I likely don't need any more in depth care.



Wait, throat and nasal were options? I was told that an anal probe was the only way to test for it!

In all seriousness, mine was nasal. Weren't told no pets but they definitely didn't have washrooms, had to hit the mall across the street after my anal, oops nasal, probe.

Will post more about it later.


----------



## colchar

Electraglide said:


> You'd best hope that the mall is open and the bathrooms are open. The mall close to me is shut except for Wallyworld, Shoppers and BMO. Maybe a clinic. All the bathrooms are closed.



Both were open. Not sure why there were so many cars in the parking lot though, the place was empty. Maybe the casino across the street is open and it was overflow parking?


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> Both were open. Not sure why there were so many cars in the parking lot though, the place was empty. Maybe the casino across the street is open and it was overflow parking?


Casinos like most of the malls here are closed. My Drs. office is on the edge of the parking lot for one of the malls here. The only place open in the mall is Shoppers.....even tarducks is closed. I go by the back parking lot and it's full.....probably 150 or so cars. Not too sure what's going on unless they are getting the mall ready to reopen. Same with the mall where the grocery store was closed for two weeks. Almost as many cars as when the place is going full swing.


----------



## colchar

OK, so this was my experience.

I went to the drive thru testing centre. When you arrive security hands you some info, including a form that you need to fill out. You then follow a circuitous around the parking lot and get in line. Eventually you make it to a tent that can handle two cars at a time. This is the pre-screening area. Someone in full PPE approaches the passenger window while holding out a small ziplock baggie (not big enough for a sandwich, more like the size you would use to put carrot sticks or apple slices in your kid's lunch). You place your health card into that bag, and they ask you a couple of questions including where you work and what you do. If they think you qualify for testing, they send you off to the left. If they don't think you qualify, you're sent off to the right and out of the parking lot. 

When you go to the left you end up in another line of cars which winds around a bit, and eventually splits into two lines. When you approach the next large tent another person in PPE comes to the car and checks out your health card that you were asked to leave sitting on your dashboard. They then go find the form you filled in earlier, and come back to ask you some questions. For me, that included everything I had told the nurse from Telehealth. After going through that, she told me that I would likely be tested today. All I could think of was "Pardon? After all of this, and having been instructed by a registered nurse to get tested, there is still a chance that I won't be? Fuck that!"

But I kept that to myself, and proceeded to the tent which can hold three cars, in each of the two lanes. When I got into the tent someone else in PPE came up to the window and asked more questions. Or should I say, they repeated questions I had already been asked. When that was done I was told that due to an underlying condition (mild asthma) I would be tested. I got the feeling that despite all of my other symptoms the asthma was the only reason this person thought I should be tested. If he had said no at that point, I would have been royally pissed.

I then moved forward in the tent to the person who actually does the testing, and they asked more questions. Or once again, I should say that they asked me the same questions yet again. When she was satisfied that I qualified to be tested, she did the nasal swab and I was on my way.

I was given a website at which to check my results. I was also told that I would be contacted if I tested positive (cannot remember if the regional health authority or the provincial one would contact me). Apparently the results will be available in 4-5 days. I was also given information on how to self isolate, but all of it is common sense.

I know that in Ontario the company LifeLabs is doing the testing. I have no idea if all the people I saw today work for them, or if they were healthcare providers of some other kind. Personally, I think their procedures could _easily_ be streamlined to save time and be far more efficient.


----------



## mhammer

Stumbled onto this Youtube channel: SciShow Very informative, although sometimes a little too information-packed. You may find it helpful, as I did, to slow down playback speed to be able to digest the content if you don't have a strong biology background, since the guy tends to talk a little fast.


----------



## keto

colchar said:


> OK, so this was my experience.
> 
> I went to the drive thru testing centre. When you arrive security hands you some info, including a form that you need to fill out. You then follow a circuitous around the parking lot and get in line. Eventually you make it to a tent that can handle two cars at a time. This is the pre-screening area. Someone in full PPE approaches the passenger window while holding out a small ziplock baggie (not big enough for a sandwich, more like the size you would use to put carrot sticks or apple slices in your kid's lunch). You place your health card into that bag, and they ask you a couple of questions including where you work and what you do. If they think you qualify for testing, they send you off to the left. If they don't think you qualify, you're sent off to the right and out of the parking lot.
> 
> When you go to the left you end up in another line of cars which winds around a bit, and eventually splits into two lines. When you approach the next large tent another person in PPE comes to the car and checks out your health card that you were asked to leave sitting on your dashboard. They then go find the form you filled in earlier, and come back to ask you some questions. For me, that included everything I had told the nurse from Telehealth. After going through that, she told me that I would likely be tested today. All I could think of was "Pardon? After all of this, and having been instructed by a registered nurse to get tested, there is still a chance that I won't be? Fuck that!"
> 
> But I kept that to myself, and proceeded to the tent which can hold three cars, in each of the two lanes. When I got into the tent someone else in PPE came up to the window and asked more questions. Or should I say, they repeated questions I had already been asked. When that was done I was told that due to an underlying condition (mild asthma) I would be tested. I got the feeling that despite all of my other symptoms the asthma was the only reason this person thought I should be tested. If he had said no at that point, I would have been royally pissed.
> 
> I then moved forward in the tent to the person who actually does the testing, and they asked more questions. Or once again, I should say that they asked me the same questions yet again. When she was satisfied that I qualified to be tested, she did the nasal swab and I was on my way.
> 
> I was given a website at which to check my results. I was also told that I would be contacted if I tested positive (cannot remember if the regional health authority or the provincial one would contact me). Apparently the results will be available in 4-5 days. I was also given information on how to self isolate, but all of it is common sense.
> 
> I know that in Ontario the company LifeLabs is doing the testing. I have no idea if all the people I saw today work for them, or if they were healthcare providers of some other kind. Personally, I think their procedures could _easily_ be streamlined to save time and be far more efficient.


Not quite as bad as the cliche DMV but holy bureaucracy. I got asked 0 symptoms questions, the pre screening was on the phone and everyone in the lineup was (obviously, near as I could tell...who knows if they had some kooks get weird when swab time came, but I didn't see any) getting tested. They asked a couple of ID questions just before 'Open wide!', and tried to hand me an isolation document, which I said no thanks. My window was down maybe 45 seconds. For initial ID, just held my health card up against the window and that was good enough.

@vadsy it was at a repurposed Eco recycle center in the Park. Just behind/E of Costco.


----------



## boyscout

tomee2 said:


> We bake all the time and I noticed the flour shortage here in early March. Finally got a big bag at costco last week. Dish soap is something I still can't find. The kind for hand washing in the sink.
> Got 99.9% rubbing alcohol the other day at shoppers, so now I can finally shellac the poplar tele body I've been refinishing very slowly.


If there's a chance that you'll use some of the rubbing alcohol for sanitizing  know that a 70% solution of alcohol is more effective than 99% at killing germs. 

Odd but true. Use some on your tele and then add water to the bottle - distilled is best but pretty much any water will do - to take it down a bit.

What was the price for what sized bottle?


----------



## boyscout

mhammer said:


> Product idea - moisturizing antibacterial soap. While packing my groceries at the checkout, one of the cashier girls came over to talk to the woman at my checkout, and was complaining that her hands have gotten dry and cracked from all the washing.


Not soap but...


----------



## tomee2

vadsy said:


> .......
> -24 pack of Dr Pepper was not on sale, had to pay full price. F
> -worcestershire is all out. The end times are here.





boyscout said:


> If there's a chance that you'll use some of the rubbing alcohol for sanitizing  know that a 70% solution of alcohol is more effective than 99% at killing germs.
> 
> Odd but true. Use some on your tele and then add water to the bottle - distilled is best but pretty much any water will do - to take it down a bit.
> 
> What was the price for what sized bottle?


I bought it for the shellac actually. It was $6 for 500ml. I've used methyl hydrate for shellac but this is safer, and right now I can't walk in to buy any either. This works well for shellac though.


----------



## mhammer

Prayers (the little ones, at least) answered.


----------



## boyscout

colchar said:


> OK, so this was my experience.
> 
> I went to the drive thru testing centre. When you arrive security hands you some info, including a form that you need to fill out. You then follow a circuitous around the parking lot and get in line. Eventually you make it to a tent that can handle two cars at a time. This is the pre-screening area. Someone in full PPE approaches the passenger window while holding out a small ziplock baggie (not big enough for a sandwich, more like the size you would use to put carrot sticks or apple slices in your kid's lunch). You place your health card into that bag, and they ask you a couple of questions including where you work and what you do. If they think you qualify for testing, they send you off to the left. If they don't think you qualify, you're sent off to the right and out of the parking lot.
> 
> When you go to the left you end up in another line of cars which winds around a bit, and eventually splits into two lines. When you approach the next large tent another person in PPE comes to the car and checks out your health card that you were asked to leave sitting on your dashboard. They then go find the form you filled in earlier, and come back to ask you some questions. For me, that included everything I had told the nurse from Telehealth. After going through that, she told me that I would likely be tested today. All I could think of was "Pardon? After all of this, and having been instructed by a registered nurse to get tested, there is still a chance that I won't be? Fuck that!"
> 
> But I kept that to myself, and proceeded to the tent which can hold three cars, in each of the two lanes. When I got into the tent someone else in PPE came up to the window and asked more questions. Or should I say, they repeated questions I had already been asked. When that was done I was told that due to an underlying condition (mild asthma) I would be tested. I got the feeling that despite all of my other symptoms the asthma was the only reason this person thought I should be tested. If he had said no at that point, I would have been royally pissed.
> 
> I then moved forward in the tent to the person who actually does the testing, and they asked more questions. Or once again, I should say that they asked me the same questions yet again. When she was satisfied that I qualified to be tested, she did the nasal swab and I was on my way.
> 
> I was given a website at which to check my results. I was also told that I would be contacted if I tested positive (cannot remember if the regional health authority or the provincial one would contact me). Apparently the results will be available in 4-5 days. I was also given information on how to self isolate, but all of it is common sense.
> 
> I know that in Ontario the company LifeLabs is doing the testing. I have no idea if all the people I saw today work for them, or if they were healthcare providers of some other kind. Personally, I think their procedures could _easily_ be streamlined to save time and be far more efficient.


Geez. I thought that a shortage of tests and laboratory capacity were the problem but it seems clear from your description that shortages of enough people and time for a byzantine labyrinth of duplicated process is part of the problem too! Three guesses where THAT was designed!


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> Stumbled onto this Youtube channel: SciShow Very informative, although sometimes a little too information-packed. You may find it helpful, as I did, to slow down playback speed to be able to digest the content if you don't have a strong biology background, since the guy tends to talk a little fast.


Thanks for those Mark - quite informative.


----------



## boyscout

tomee2 said:


> I bought it for the shellac actually. It was $6 for 500ml. I've used methyl hydrate for shellac but this is safer, and right now I can't walk in to buy any either. This works well for shellac though.


Street price is three times that much - how shiny does your guitar have to be?! 

 I dunno about street price but isopropyl has been very scarce for weeks. Good to see that it's reappearing for consumers, up a dollar or so but not-crazy priced.


----------



## keto

A sign of things to come, border closed for another 30 days, to May 21.


----------



## davetcan

keto said:


> A sign of things to come, border closed for another 30 days, to May 21.


Need to close it for about 12 months as far as overseas traffic is concerned. And only open it to US citizens once they have it under control.


----------



## tomee2

boyscout said:


> Street price is three times that much - how shiny does your guitar have to be?!
> 
> I dunno about street price but isopropyl has been very scarce for weeks. Good to see that it's reappearing for consumers, up a dollar or so but not-crazy priced.


Well, it was the last bottle on the shelf! The shellac is sealer before acrylic lacquer white... it's been stalled because of no shellac.


----------



## tomee2

keto said:


> A sign of things to come, border closed for another 30 days, to May 21.


Canada US border?


----------



## keto

tomee2 said:


> Canada US border?


Yes.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

tomee2 said:


> Canada US border?


Yes, thankfully. They aren't exactly following the "best practices" of social distancing to help get over this situation. No need to have them bringing more cases over here to spread around.


----------



## Distortion

tomee2 said:


> Canada US border?


The boarder will open when Trump says it will ,if you want trucks with needed product.


----------



## colchar

keto said:


> Not quite as bad as the cliche DMV but holy bureaucracy. I got asked 0 symptoms questions, the pre screening was on the phone and everyone in the lineup was (obviously, near as I could tell...who knows if they had some kooks get weird when swab time came, but I didn't see any) getting tested. They asked a couple of ID questions just before 'Open wide!', and tried to hand me an isolation document, which I said no thanks. My window was down maybe 45 seconds. For initial ID, just held my health card up against the window and that was good enough.



One of the questions on the form asked if I had been told by public health to be tested. I answered yes, so that should have been the end of the screening questions for me.


----------



## vadsy

Jim DaddyO said:


>


is this Alberta?


----------



## colchar

keto said:


> A sign of things to come, border closed for another 30 days, to May 21.



It opens on my birthday. Happy birthday to me!


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Yes, thankfully. They aren't exactly following the "best practices" of social distancing to help get over this situation. No need to have them bringing more cases over here to spread around.



Saw this on the news last night. What kind of pathetic fucking loser thinks that a rifle is appropriate for a gathering like that? I mean seriously, just how screwed up do you need to be to think that that is even remotely appropriate? I know that you desperately need to compensate for your 2" dick but come on!


----------



## Doug Gifford

I live about 15 minutes drive (less by boat) from the US border. Haven't crossed it in about five years and don't see why I'd go there now. Especially now.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

vadsy said:


> is this Alberta?


No Michigan. You can tell by the guns it's USA. Which leads me to think that if this group ever have to go up against 3 guys that have been living in the hills of some god forsaken country, starving and fighting, they may just as well surrender if that's their last line of defence. This mob would shit their pants and be crying to go home for some 'possum stew before 24 hours went by. Not to mention, they don't take orders very well. No discipline, no winning.


----------



## allthumbs56

Doug Gifford said:


> I live about 15 minutes drive (less by boat) from the US border. Haven't crossed it in about five years and don't see why I'd go there now. Especially now.


30 cans of Rolling Rock for $16.99 at Walmart


----------



## vadsy

allthumbs56 said:


> 30 cans of Rolling Rock for $16.99 at Walmart


YeA!


----------



## vadsy

Jim DaddyO said:


> No Michigan. You can tell by the guns it's USA. Which leads me to think that if this group ever have to go up against 3 guys that have been living in the hills of some god forsaken country, starving and fighting, they may just as well surrender if that's their last line of defence. This mob would shit their pants and be crying to go home for some 'possum stew before 24 hours went by. Not to mention, they don't take orders very well. No discipline, no winning.


Lol. that sounds like Alberta for sure. dude in the backwards hat looks like my brother-in-law Iris


----------



## GuitarsCanada

keto said:


> A sign of things to come, border closed for another 30 days, to May 21.


Roxham Road is always open if you need to get over.


----------



## Electraglide

davetcan said:


> Need to close it for about 12 months as far as overseas traffic is concerned. And only open it to US citizens once they have it under control.


What about Canadian citizens coming back from over seas?


----------



## vadsy

Electraglide said:


> What about Canadian citizens coming back from over seas?


they made their choice


----------



## Electraglide

Jim DaddyO said:


> No Michigan. You can tell by the guns it's USA. Which leads me to think that if this group ever have to go up against 3 guys that have been living in the hills of some god forsaken country, starving and fighting, they may just as well surrender if that's their last line of defence. This mob would shit their pants and be crying to go home for some 'possum stew before 24 hours went by. Not to mention, they don't take orders very well. No discipline, no winning.


Those guys look like guys I know from the states.....most running various Vets patches.....and if so they have been trained to give and take orders, trained on how to use those weapons and have gone up against guys living in the hills of some forsaken country who have just as many weapons. Probably some National Guard and Reserves in there. As far a Possum stew goes a lot of them can probably make it, no problem.


----------



## davetcan

Electraglide said:


> What about Canadian citizens coming back from over seas?


Isolation


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Electraglide said:


> trained to give and take orders


Not following the life saving "stay at home" order are they? Lot's of brain power there. They would rather see people die, their own fellow countrymen, who they claim they are wanting to protect, instead of just chilling out for a while. "Live free or die" one of the signs say. Perhaps they choose die, or Live free AND die. 

Just a rabble out to stir up shit because they are inconvenienced a little bit and that is slowing them down from what? Not thinking of the greater good, just themselves. Sounds like the definition of "snowflake" to me.


----------



## boyscout

davetcan said:


> Isolation


We hope. Remember the load of people on a Chinese airliner that landed at Toronto's Pearson airport... what, about a week ago? Their temperatures were taken by cabin crew during the flight (the airline is HIGHLY incented to report anyone who's sick, right?!). Virtually no screening on the ground by Canadian officials. One hundred plus people coming from the country that started this pandemic, free to move around Canada from the moment they landed here.


----------



## allthumbs56

GuitarsCanada said:


> Roxham Road is always open if you need to get over.


And they have valet service too


----------



## allthumbs56

davetcan said:


> Isolation


At this point I'd bus them to a military base to ensure it.


----------



## davetcan

boyscout said:


> We hope. Remember the load of people on a Chinese airliner that landed at Toronto's Pearson airport... what, about a week ago? Their temperatures were taken by cabin crew during the flight (the airline is HIGHLY incented to report anyone who's sick, right?!). Virtually no screening on the ground by Canadian officials. One hundred plus people coming from the country that started this pandemic, free to move around Canada from the moment they landed here.


I wasn't talking about "voluntary" isolation


----------



## vadsy

Electraglide said:


> Those guys look like guys I know from the states.....most running various Vets patches.....and if so they have been trained to give and take orders, trained on how to use those weapons and have gone up against guys living in the hills of some forsaken country who have just as many weapons. Probably some National Guard and Reserves in there. As far a Possum stew goes a lot of them can probably make it, no problem.


cool story, brah



Jim DaddyO said:


> Not following the life saving "stay at home" order are they? Lot's of brain power there. They would rather see people die, their own fellow countrymen, who they claim they are wanting to protect, instead of just chilling out for a while. "Live free or die" one of the signs say. Perhaps they choose die, or Live free AND die.
> 
> Just a rabble out to stir up shit because they are inconvenienced a little bit and that is slowing them down from what? Not thinking of the greater good, just themselves. Sounds like the definition of "snowflake" to me.


but theyre running patches and trained to follow orders while eating Possum, these guys are the real deal


----------



## Electraglide

Jim DaddyO said:


> Not following the life saving "stay at home" order are they? Lot's of brain power there. They would rather see people die, their own fellow countrymen, who they claim they are wanting to protect, instead of just chilling out for a while. "Live free or die" one of the signs say. Perhaps they choose die, or Live free AND die.
> 
> Just a rabble out to stir up shit because they are inconvenienced a little bit and that is slowing them down from what? Not thinking of the greater good, just themselves. Sounds like the definition of "snowflake" to me.


Seems their president shares the same ideas as they do....or has he changed his mind again? Same with some of the various states and religious leaders down there. I'm not too sure what states, aside from california, have a "stay at home order". I don't think there is any in Canada. It is suggested but that's about it.....well maybe quebec but they're different there anyway.


----------



## mhammer

Had an interesting chat with our provincial minister of tourism, sports, and culture earlier this afternoon, who lives just down the street from us. T'was an over-the-fence chat from a good 3-4 metres away, so not to worry. I had thought she was in Toronto, but no she told me she has been home, working from home since March 17. The cabinet does have to go back to Queen's park later this week. She said they still hadn't really worked out the spacing arrangement for those able to attend the legislature. I'll have to watch the provincial legislature channel later this week and see if the room is masked up.

Given the difficulties she had in her initial portfolio, and the backlash from parents of kids on the autism spectrum, this must have seemed like a less contentious portfolio to be moved to. And then the world changed. As she told me, a few hundred thousand jobs had been lost in the various sectors she now oversees. Keep in mind that tourism, sports, and culture is fundamentally about people travelling and gathering together, and all the jobs and industries that cater to that. And as we also chatted about, it's not like other nations are that much farther along grappling with this that there are better and worse practices to select from and consider adopting. This is an untrodden path. There are going to be a mountain of policy decisions to be made regarding how one begins to merge with whatever the next "normal" is. E.g., if people CAN travel, at least within the country, what sorts of arrangements would have to be made with hotels? What hygiene/disinfection and spacing standards would have to be observed, and how would those be assured? Would staff now have to be trained and certified in some manner, and if so, by whom? What ministry's purview would this fall under; tourism, health, labour? Could bed & breakfast places operate or would they fall below some corporate size capable of doing inspections and reporting back to the ministry? What sorts of tourist attractions would be permitted to open? Could you have concerts with spaced seating, but no clubs with standing audiences, rubbing shoulders? What would you be permitted to advertise? The list goes on and on. It'll take them months to work all of that out, with no guarantee that whatever policies they come up with anticipate all the quirks and twists. I don't envy those folks.

She has her husband and daughter working from home as well. I asked if they had enough bandwidth in the house to manage her work, her husband's (heads up a local BIA), and her daughter (Grade 9 student). She said the internet seemed to be sufficient, but conference calls could be spotty. I know in our home, if my wife has to have a Zoom work meeting, I can't be watching Youtubes downstairs or else she experiences glitches. The daughter, meanwhile, says she is enjoying the online classes, and in her view is actually doing better in her courses than she was while in classroom. I asked if there was anything that was harder to take classes in on-line. She said her drama class was a little awkward, but they were doing writing exercises instead. And naturally, you can't really take gym class on-line. (I have this image of students using the same video trick Keanu Reeves used in Speed, only it's an endlessly-repeating loop of the student doing pushups)

But it was a lovely afternoon, and still so. We went out for a walk and chatted with many neighbours, who seemed to all be out raking leaves and other lawn detritus. Much to my surprise, we saw two large-ish butterflies. I'm going to have to look up what species, because they were not familiar to me. And I found two NPN germanium transistors in the drawer that are suitable for making an excellent negative-ground Fuzz Face.


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> Had an interesting chat with our provincial minister of tourism, sports, and culture earlier this afternoon, who lives just down the street from us. T'was an over-the-fence chat from a good 3-4 metres away, so not to worry. I had thought she was in Toronto, but no she told me she has been home, working from home since March 17. The cabinet does have to go back to Queen's park later this week. She said they still hadn't really worked out the spacing arrangement for those able to attend the legislature. I'll have to watch the provincial legislature channel later this week and see if the room is masked up.
> 
> Given the difficulties she had in her initial portfolio, and the backlash from parents of kids on the autism spectrum, this must have seemed like a less contentious portfolio to be moved to. And then the world changed. As she told me, a few hundred thousand jobs had been lost in the various sectors she now oversees. Keep in mind that tourism, sports, and culture is fundamentally about people travelling and gathering together, and all the jobs and industries that cater to that. And as we also chatted about, it's not like other nations are that much farther along grappling with this that there are better and worse practices to select from and consider adopting. This is an untrodden path. There are going to be a mountain of policy decisions to be made regarding how one begins to merge with whatever the next "normal" is. E.g., if people CAN travel, at least within the country, what sorts of arrangements would have to be made with hotels? What hygiene/disinfection and spacing standards would have to be observed, and how would those be assured? Would staff now have to be trained and certified in some manner, and if so, by whom? What ministry's purview would this fall under; tourism, health, labour? Could bed & breakfast places operate or would they fall below some corporate size capable of doing inspections and reporting back to the ministry? What sorts of tourist attractions would be permitted to open? Could you have concerts with spaced seating, but no clubs with standing audiences, rubbing shoulders? What would you be permitted to advertise? The list goes on and on. It'll take them months to work all of that out, with no guarantee that whatever policies they come up with anticipate all the quirks and twists. I don't envy those folks.
> 
> She has her husband and daughter working from home as well. I asked if they had enough bandwidth in the house to manage her work, her husband's (heads up a local BIA), and her daughter (Grade 9 student). She said the internet seemed to be sufficient, but conference calls could be spotty. I know in our home, if my wife has to have a Zoom work meeting, I can't be watching Youtubes downstairs or else she experiences glitches. The daughter, meanwhile, says she is enjoying the online classes, and in her view is actually doing better in her courses than she was while in classroom. I asked if there was anything that was harder to take classes in on-line. She said her drama class was a little awkward, but they were doing writing exercises instead. And naturally, you can't really take gym class on-line. (I have this image of students using the same video trick Keanu Reeves used in Speed, only it's an endlessly-repeating loop of the student doing pushups)
> 
> But it was a lovely afternoon, and still so. We went out for a walk and chatted with many neighbours, who seemed to all be out raking leaves and other lawn detritus. Much to my surprise, we saw two large-ish butterflies. I'm going to have to look up what species, because they were not familiar to me. And I found two NPN germanium transistors in the drawer that are suitable for making an excellent negative-ground Fuzz Face.


You (as in we or more than one) went for a walk and chatted with neighbours? Who seem to be all out and doing yardwork? Doesn't sound like 'staying at home' to me. Probably others going for walks and riding bikes and driving around, just like any other spring weekend. %h(*&


----------



## colchar

Electraglide said:


> You (as in we or more than one) went for a walk and chatted with neighbours? Who seem to be all out and doing yardwork? Doesn't sound like 'staying at home' to me. Probably others going for walks and riding bikes and driving around, just like any other spring weekend. %h(*&



You do not have to stay indoors. You can be out so long as you practice social distancing, and you can most certainly be out in your own yard.

I was tested yesterday, and am out right now. Granted, being 'out' means my backyard but there is nobody else here except for my dog (and yes, he is a person).


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> You do not have to stay indoors. You can be out so long as you practice social distancing, and you can most certainly be out in your own yard.
> 
> I was tested yesterday, and am out right now. Granted, being 'out' means my backyard but there is nobody else here except for my dog (and yes, he is a person).


When you got tested did you have the option of taking your mom? She lives with you I believe.


----------



## boyscout

davetcan said:


> I wasn't talking about "voluntary" isolation


Jes' sayin', when those folks landed from China we'd been told by the prime minister that rigorous screening was being done by our officials at "all airports" (which would include our busiest one at Pearson) and had been in process for weeks. But it wasn't happening as the report about that flight - and so many other reports before it - proved.

We've now been told by the prime minister that people will be quarantined by the government *IF* they don't have a good story about how they'll isolate themselves in Canada. (I could make up a good story right quick unless I wanted to spend two weeks in a hotel at government expense.)

So, let's hope that the recent announcement means that anyone arriving in Canada now will actually BE quarantined, instead of of just being an announcement of future intentions as other announcements have been.


----------



## Budda

So is this thread for updates or just talking again? Can't tell, because it's at 50 pages and every time I check in I don't get much info.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Budda said:


> So is this thread for updates or just talking again? Can't tell, because it's at 50 pages and every time I check in I don't get much info.


A bit of both -- like all the other threads.


----------



## Doug Gifford

allthumbs56 said:


> 30 cans of Rolling Rock for $16.99 at Walmart


'fraid that's not gonna do it


----------



## Budda

Doug Gifford said:


> A bit of both -- like all the other threads.


But we had the covid-free-for-all thread. That's why Mike started this one, so I thought.


----------



## cdntac

Budda said:


> So is this thread for updates or just talking again? Can't tell, because it's at 50 pages and every time I check in I don't get much info.


Anything goes tho I’d avoid mentioning Wal-Mart. It’s apparently a trigger.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Electraglide said:


> Seems their president shares the same ideas as they do.


He actually started it (the protests)










At this rate, due to the presidents encouragement, there may be many less people left who will vote Republican.


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> You (as in we or more than one) went for a walk and chatted with neighbours? Who seem to be all out and doing yardwork? Doesn't sound like 'staying at home' to me. Probably others going for walks and riding bikes and driving around, just like any other spring weekend. %h(*&


We walked _through_ the local park, which had signs everywhere saying it was ONLY for walking through. But people are glad to see each other and say "Hi" to whomever is passing by. If you go into a supermarket, they are eerily quiet. Nobody says much of anything to anyone, except for maybe "How many bags did you need?".

Looked up the butterfly we saw and found it was the Mourning Cloak, historically acknowledged as one of the first butterflies of spring. I guess it's official.


----------



## colchar

Electraglide said:


> When you got tested did you have the option of taking your mom? She lives with you I believe.



She has no symptoms so cannot be tested. She is my biggest worry in this. If I test positive then I'll need to stay away from her, use other things in the house, etc. But because of her Alzheimer's she won't remember and that will make it tougher to keep her safe.


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> We walked _through_ the local park, which had signs everywhere saying it was ONLY for walking through. But people are glad to see each other and say "Hi" to whomever is passing by. If you go into a supermarket, they are eerily quiet. Nobody says much of anything to anyone, except for maybe "How many bags did you need?".
> 
> Looked up the butterfly we saw and found it was the Mourning Cloak, historically acknowledged as one of the first butterflies of spring. I guess it's official.


The rabbits around here are still fairly white. People in supermarkets around here are as chatty as before the Covid thing. The cougars in the one store still smile and say hi to me.


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> She has no symptoms so cannot be tested. She is my biggest worry in this. If I test positive then I'll need to stay away from her, use other things in the house, etc. But because of her Alzheimer's she won't remember and that will make it tougher to keep her safe.


Buddy, that is one seriously tough situation to be in. I only have banal useless advice to offer. Let's hope it isn't needed. Fingers crossed for a negative test.

If I may pry, how bad _is_ her dementia? E.g. would you have to worry about her getting anywhere near the stove or medicine cabinet when you leave the house? Feel free to say "Pass".


----------



## oldjoat

colchar said:


> She has no symptoms so cannot be tested. She is my biggest worry in this. If I test positive then I'll need to stay away from her, use other things in the house, etc. But because of her Alzheimer's she won't remember and that will make it tougher to keep her safe.


keep those fingers crossed ! 

(I hope the test is neg , too)


----------



## boyscout

Budda said:


> So is this thread for updates or just talking again? Can't tell, because it's at 50 pages and every time I check in I don't get much info.


Then why do you keep checking?

Here's an update for you: four days ago we cracked 1,000 deaths from the corona virus. Today we'll shoot well past 1,500; over 50% increase in five days.


----------



## Milkman

This morning like every morning for the past few weeks, I checked a couple of websites that are providing data as to numbers of cases, numbers of deaths, deaths per 100k of population et cetera.

When I see that India has reported that they have 16,365 cases and only 521 deaths and even Mexico has only 7497 cases and 650 deaths I'm afraid (as others have surely pointed out) the data is questionable at best. China's reporting? Yeah we can trust that.

No, I haven't visited India (ever) or Mexico in recent months but I think anybody who has visited either country knows full well how woefully inadequate the sewage infrastructure and basic hygiene are there. The notion that they would be less impacted than Canada is hared to believe.

Coronavirus Update (Live): 2,350,075 Cases and 161,270 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer

Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases


----------



## mhammer




----------



## mhammer

Milkman said:


> This morning like every morning for the past few weeks, I checked a couple of websites that are providing data as to numbers of cases, numbers of deaths, deaths per 100k of population et cetera.
> 
> When I see that India has reported that they have 16,365 cases and only 521 deaths and even Mexico has only 7497 cases and 650 deaths I'm afraid (as others have surely pointed out) the data is questionable at best. China's reporting? Yeah we can trust that.
> 
> No, I haven't visited India (ever) or Mexico in recent months but I think anybody who has visited either country knows full well how woefully inadequate the sewage infrastructure and basic hygiene are there. The notion that they would be less impacted than Canada is hared to believe.
> 
> Coronavirus Update (Live): 2,350,075 Cases and 161,270 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer
> 
> Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases


One generally does not see an over-populated developing nation with shockingly poor waste management BUT an exquisite public health information system for acquiring reliable accurate up-to-the-minute data. It's like seeing a guy whose teeth have all rotted out, and skin is scabby, but whose hair is thrillingly perfect, and dresses like a Dolce & Gabbana model.

One of the difficulties with China and their reporting is that the top bureaucracy in the provinces is not like the provincial bureaucracy here. Beijing has such a tight grip that none of those provincial officials are going to say "Hell, no" to Xi and the rest of the gang. Carrie Lam in Hong Kong is probably the most "rebellious" of the lot, and that's not saying much. If one studies organizational functioning, you tend to see that many large organizations are undone by middle managers telling upper management that everything's AOK and going terrific. Unrealistic overly-positive upward feedback leads to bad management decisions at the top.


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> This morning like every morning for the past few weeks, I checked a couple of websites that are providing data as to numbers of cases, numbers of deaths, deaths per 100k of population et cetera.
> 
> When I see that India has reported that they have 16,365 cases and only 521 deaths and even Mexico has only 7497 cases and 650 deaths I'm afraid (as others have surely pointed out) the data is questionable at best. China's reporting? Yeah we can trust that.
> 
> No, I haven't visited India (ever) or Mexico in recent months but I think anybody who has visited either country knows full well how woefully inadequate the sewage infrastructure and basic hygiene are there. The notion that they would be less impacted than Canada is hared to believe.
> 
> Coronavirus Update (Live): 2,350,075 Cases and 161,270 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Pandemic - Worldometer
> 
> Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases


Pretty safe to say that the numbers are being manipulated or under-reported for a variety of reasons. I think that until everybody can be tested there will be no accurate numbers. Here in Ontario, for example, there is a a direct relationship to the number tested: Test 7,000 - find 500, each and every day (give or take). They're also not reporting a lot of deaths for any number of reasons. What to believe?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> One of the difficulties with China and their reporting is that the top bureaucracy in the provinces is not like the provincial bureaucracy here.


Also, reporting all goes through the government THEN what the government thinks is suitable to release goes to the government owned/controlled media. Kind of like on Good Morning Vietnam where all the news had to be vetted before release, and much was heavily redacted.


----------



## boyscout

OK, now it's getting real. Improve your chances of surviving the pandemic by cutting off your balls.

Do testicles make men more vulnerable to the coronavirus?


----------



## High/Deaf

Let's just say a totalitarian govt isn't really held accountable by the public, so doesn't need to provide any truthful media to it's minio ...... er, citizens inside it's borders. It is far more concerned about what people outside it's borders think of their country than what people inside their borders think. Trust any information out of China at your own peril.




boyscout said:


> Jes' sayin', when those folks landed from China we'd been told by the prime minister that rigorous screening was being done by our officials at "all airports" (which would include our busiest one at Pearson) and had been in process for weeks. But it wasn't happening as the report about that flight - and so many other reports before it - proved.
> 
> We've now been told by the prime minister that people will be quarantined by the government *IF* they don't have a good story about how they'll isolate themselves in Canada. (I could make up a good story right quick unless I wanted to spend two weeks in a hotel at government expense.)
> 
> So, let's hope that the recent announcement means that anyone arriving in Canada now will actually BE quarantined, instead of of just being an announcement of future intentions as other announcements have been.


We've been doing it for a few weeks now. A few people thus far have not been able to produce isolation plans to the govt's satisfaction. Not perfect, a work in progress, but you have to start somewhere. And as soon as possible.

1,700 people returned to B.C. over Easter weekend, most had quarantine plans: Henry - Victoria News


----------



## Jim Wellington

High/Deaf said:


> Let's just say a totalitarian govt isn't really held accountable to providing truthful media to it's minio ...... er, citizens. It is far more concerned about what people outside their borders think that what people inside their borders think. Trust any information out of China at your own peril.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We've been doing it for a few weeks now. A few people thus far have not been able to produce isolation plans to the govt's satisfaction. Not perfect, a work in progress, but you have to start somewhere. And as soon as possible.


Sounds just like Canada since the globalists took the reigns....Virtue, virtue everywhere, but not one thread of common sense to share, or sincere concern for that matter. With our leader appreciating "China`s basic dictatorship"... I wouldn`t be throwing stones at other nations until we get our own backyard fixed. Far too much foreign influence in our political process.


----------



## JBFairthorne

Getting a bit political.


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Pretty safe to say that the numbers are being manipulated or under-reported for a variety of reasons. I think that until everybody can be tested there will be no accurate numbers. Here in Ontario, for example, there is a a direct relationship to the number tested: Test 7,000 - find 500, each and every day (give or take). They're also not reporting a lot of deaths for any number of reasons. What to believe?


There are a number of reasons for the reported numbers, by nation, to maybe not be accurate and up-to-date. Some likely are manipulative. Some are because the health system does not have the capacity to properly classify illnesses, deaths, or both in timely fashion. In such cases, dead is dead and there is no system or resources for determining how or collating the information. Some are because they _might_ have the capacity but were slow to get started, so the current numbers are probably what they should have been several weeks ago. In some instances, procedural matters interfere with the classification of deaths; e.g., those instance in NYC where people have died in their homes rather than in a hospital, and the death cannot be properly classified without allocating precious time and effort away from where it is needed. In Ecuador, many victims are dying at home, with bodies left in the streets or buried in the back yard. And as I noted in a previous post, tallies from smaller regions, to be collated at the national level, may be accurately or erroneously reported. The effort to collate and provide a grand total may or may not be accurate, but if they are relying on data sources that are questionable, then even honestly reported totals may be well off. And finally, it can take a bit of time for everyone to report back, and numbers to be totalled; country A may have their total ready a day before country B.

There are so many sources of measurement error that I think we should view everybody's total, whether we're talking tests administered, cases identified, deaths, recovered cases, etc. as at least somewhere within a margin of error, with the margin being larger in some some instances.

The importance of the margin of error is, of course, not a question of a pissing contest between nations. Rather, as the saying goes: you can't manage what you can't measure. And you can't identify what the impacts are of this or that national strategy on success of virus control if the numbers don't reliably and validly allow you to say "This place is doing better than that place". It's all new for everybody, and we don't really have the latitude to say "Those guys had epidemic X back in 2017 and this is what they did that worked well". So the numbers matter for identifying what we _need _to do.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

In medcine related news....

U.S. doctor who cited Trump to push hydroxychloroquine 'miracle cure' charged by feds


----------



## High/Deaf

Jim Wellington said:


> Sounds just like Canada since the globalists took the reigns....Virtue, virtue everywhere, but not one thread of common sense to share, or sincere concern for that matter. With our leader appreciating "China`s basic dictatorship"... *I wouldn`t be throwing stones at other nations until we get our own backyard fixed. Far too much foreign influence in our political process.*


Those who don't learn from history (or other's examples) is doomed to repeat (or emulate) it.

I don't like how China operates, politically, and I don't want to emulate them. We should learn from their errors, not ignore them. Call it throwing stones, call it constructive criticism, call it destructive criticism (really depends on perspective, right?)........ just don't ignore it. Or at least be aware of the risk you assume by ignoring it.


----------



## Budda

boyscout said:


> Then why do you keep checking?
> 
> Here's an update for you: four days ago we cracked 1,000 deaths from the corona virus. Today we'll shoot well past 1,500; over 50% increase in five days.


Because I foolishly expect a group of adults to post useful information during a pandemic to the pandemic update thread.


----------



## Electraglide

boyscout said:


> OK, now it's getting real. Improve your chances of surviving the pandemic by cutting off your balls.
> 
> Do testicles make men more vulnerable to the coronavirus?


just waiting for the rapture?


----------



## boyscout

Budda said:


> Because I foolishly expect a group of adults to post useful information during a pandemic to the pandemic update thread.


If you're relying on a guitar forum's free-for-all conversation threads to give you exclusively "useful information" then you've characterized your expectation appropriately.

There's plenty of information here; it's up to you to winnow out what you consider to be useful without denigrating the rest.


----------



## Milkman

Two stand out performances from last night's web concert in support of front line medical workers.

I was impressed most by Lady Gaga and Keith Urban.


----------



## mhammer

Budda said:


> Because I foolishly expect a group of adults to post useful information during a pandemic to the pandemic update thread.


Admittedly annoying, but I think, Justin, that this particular thread has become pretty much the current lunchroom/water-cooler, gathering all chatter from all employees. Some of it is going to be cogent and "work-related", some simply gossip, some bad jokes having nothing to do with anything, some just whining about co-workers, and so on. Meh, it happens. We could start a thread titled "Only medicine and scientific information" and it wouldn't take long before it drifted off-topic. Much like the internet itself, anyone can post almost anything they want almost anywhere they want, whether it is relevant, informative, civil, coherent, or otherwise.


----------



## boyscout

Milkman said:


> Two stand out performances from last night's web concert in support of front line medical workers.
> 
> I was impressed most by Lady Gaga and Keith Urban.


Jennifer Lopez pretty great too.

On the other end of the spectrum, the large drink prominent on Keith Richards' table was probably not his first or even his second; good thing Mick Jagger was so strong (and Charlie Watts getting those crisp sounds out of a leather chest and a wing-back chair; amazing!)


----------



## Wardo

Budda said:


> Because I foolishly expect a group of adults to post useful information during a pandemic to the pandemic update thread.


I think the information/articles etc in the political thread is actually better than this one.


----------



## davetcan

mhammer said:


> Admittedly annoying, but I think, Justin, that this particular thread has become pretty much the current lunchroom/water-cooler, gathering all chatter from all employees. Some of it is going to be cogent and "work-related", some simply gossip, some bad jokes having nothing to do with anything, some just whining about co-workers, and so on. Meh, it happens. We could start a thread titled "Only medicine and scientific information" and it wouldn't take long before it drifted off-topic. Much like the internet itself, anyone can post almost anything they want almost anywhere they want, whether it is relevant, informative, civil, coherent, or otherwise.


Or I could attempt to moderate it and be called a fascist asshole for trying to keep it on track  There aren't enough hours in the day.


----------



## tomee2

mhammer said:


> There are a number of reasons for the reported numbers, by nation, to maybe not be accurate and up-to-date. Some likely are manipulative. Some are because the health system does not have the capacity to properly classify illnesses, deaths, or both in timely fashion. In such cases, dead is dead and there is no system or resources for determining how or collating the information. Some are because they _might_ have the capacity but were slow to get started, so the current numbers are probably what they should have been several weeks ago. In some instances, procedural matters interfere with the classification of deaths; e.g., those instance in NYC where people have died in their homes rather than in a hospital, and the death cannot be properly classified without allocating precious time and effort away from where it is needed. In Ecuador, many victims are dying at home, with bodies left in the streets or buried in the back yard. And as I noted in a previous post, tallies from smaller regions, to be collated at the national level, may be accurately or erroneously reported. The effort to collate and provide a grand total may or may not be accurate, but if they are relying on data sources that are questionable, then even honestly reported totals may be well off. And finally, it can take a bit of time for everyone to report back, and numbers to be totalled; country A may have their total ready a day before country B.
> 
> There are so many sources of measurement error that I think we should view everybody's total, whether we're talking tests administered, cases identified, deaths, recovered cases, etc. as at least somewhere within a margin of error, with the margin being larger in some some instances.
> 
> The importance of the margin of error is, of course, not a question of a pissing contest between nations. Rather, as the saying goes: you can't manage what you can't measure. And you can't identify what the impacts are of this or that national strategy on success of virus control if the numbers don't reliably and validly allow you to say "This place is doing better than that place". It's all new for everybody, and we don't really have the latitude to say "Those guys had epidemic X back in 2017 and this is what they did that worked well". So the numbers matter for identifying what we _need _to do.


Or their first cases occurred a month or two after ours? Canada and the US are very connected to China and the EU. Maybe there's less travel between India and China and the EU compared to China?

I'm expecting totals in larger countries like India and Brazil to take off, and eventually dwarf even the US numbers.


----------



## Milkman

boyscout said:


> Jennifer Lopez pretty great too.
> 
> On the other end of the spectrum, the large drink prominent on Keith Richards' table was probably not his first or even his second; good thing Mick Jagger was so strong (and Charlie Watts getting those crisp sounds out of a leather chest and a wing-back chair; amazing!)


Jennifer Lopez was also really strong as you said. I was out of the room during much of her performance but I’ll go back and watch it.
What I did hear sounded good.


----------



## tomee2

Jim DaddyO said:


> In medcine related news....
> 
> U.S. doctor who cited Trump to push hydroxychloroquine 'miracle cure' charged by feds


Doctors can make so much money in the US doing legal medical work, why resort to illegal stuff???


----------



## Rozz

davetcan said:


> Or I could attempt to moderate it and be called a fascist asshole for trying to keep it on track  *There aren't enough hours in the day*.


These types of threads can be time consuming even as a participant let alone a moderator. 

I have been following along province-by- province using this resource from the Feds(apologies if it has been posted). 

Coronavirus disease (COVID-19): Outbreak update - Canada.ca

You guys in Ontario and Quebec are still in tough, keep safe and hang in there guys.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

tomee2 said:


> Doctors can make so much money in the US doing legal medical work, why resort to illegal stuff???


One word......greed.

Some folks just can't accept that they can make a reasonable living honestly, so they step over the line, or in some cases, leap.


----------



## mhammer

tomee2 said:


> Doctors can make so much money in the US doing legal medical work, why resort to illegal stuff???


Money has an interesting way of nudging scruples to the side. And just as crucially, it has an interesting way of shaping what one finds plausible, justified, and reasonable. People can come to believe in the stupidest things because there is profit to be made.


----------



## allthumbs56

davetcan said:


> Or I could attempt to moderate it and be called a fascist asshole for trying to keep it on track  There aren't enough hours in the day.


C'mon Dave, no one thinks you're fascist


----------



## Budda

mhammer said:


> Admittedly annoying, but I think, Justin, that this particular thread has become pretty much the current lunchroom/water-cooler, gathering all chatter from all employees. Some of it is going to be cogent and "work-related", some simply gossip, some bad jokes having nothing to do with anything, some just whining about co-workers, and so on. Meh, it happens. We could start a thread titled "Only medicine and scientific information" and it wouldn't take long before it drifted off-topic. Much like the internet itself, anyone can post almost anything they want almost anywhere they want, whether it is relevant, informative, civil, coherent, or otherwise.


It is definitely the watercooler thread.

I just thought we already had that in the first thread, which is why Mike started this one.

I'll just stop checking. I'm going to work anyway, my wife works in a hospital, I'm sure I'll find out whatever I need to know.

Now if only I can get people to stop listing gear I want to buy while I'm saving for a house...


----------



## Frenchy99

Rozz said:


> You guys in Ontario and Quebec are still in tough, keep safe and hang in there guys.


Thanks !

Scary down here...


----------



## keto

Test just in, negative as I expected.

Talking about reporting, Alberta taking big heat for not informing that a Calgary hospital had an outbreak in the maternity staff, more or less 'we didn't think it was relevant'.


----------



## keto

tomee2 said:


> Doctors can make so much money in the US doing legal medical work, why resort to illegal stuff???


Actually, nobody is doing any elective work and docs and clinics down there are going bankrupt left and right right now.


----------



## Electraglide

keto said:


> Actually, nobody is doing any elective work and docs and clinics down there are going bankrupt left and right right now.


Same as up here and it sounds like they've cut funding and the way Drs. can bill for some things for Alberta Drs. too.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

allthumbs56 said:


> Pretty safe to say that the numbers are being manipulated or under-reported for a variety of reasons. I think that until everybody can be tested there will be no accurate numbers. Here in Ontario, for example, there is a a direct relationship to the number tested: Test 7,000 - find 500, each and every day (give or take). They're also not reporting a lot of deaths for any number of reasons. What to believe?


Was reading an article the other day. Some random testing done of 200 people in a smallish sized city/town in the states. They were shocked to discover that 30% of the 200 tested were positive for the virus. No symptoms etc.


----------



## tomee2

GuitarsCanada said:


> Was reading an article the other day. Some random testing done of 200 people in a smallish sized city/town in the states. They were shocked to discover that 30% of the 200 tested were positive for the virus. No symptoms etc.


That aircraft carrier is another example. I think it was 4000 crew tested, 600 were positive, under 300 had symptoms.
1 dead so far, I think.


----------



## colchar

The test was negative so:


----------



## boyscout

GuitarsCanada said:


> Was reading an article the other day. Some random testing done of 200 people in a smallish sized city/town in the states. They were shocked to discover that 30% of the 200 tested were positive for the virus. No symptoms etc.


They are SO far from doing what they should be doing down there!

Here's that live flight-tracking site I posted in the political section a while back, still showing hundreds of flights in the air pretty much any time I look at it. Virtually no change in airline practices - apparently they're not serving snacks on planes to reduce contact.

Flightradar24: Live Flight Tracker - Real-Time Flight Tracker Map

When they're supporting that - and other incautious behaviors - how can they possibly know where they have problems? If they don't know where the problems are, how can they control them?


----------



## colchar

The US is completely fucked. Just fucked. Not only in how they are handling this, but in the attitudes of many of its people. 

And speaking of tests, I wonder if the standard test we get simply tells us whether we have the virus, or whether we have the antibodies? Since my test was negative, I'd like to know if I have antibodies as that would go a long way towards easing my mind about possibly getting it in the future.


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> And speaking of tests, I wonder if the standard test we get simply tells us whether we have the virus, or whether we have the antibodies? *Since my test was negative*, I'd like to know if I have antibodies as that would go a long way towards easing my mind about possibly getting it in the future.


Great news! Keto's test was negative too. Time to start our own database?

# tested: 2
# negative: 2

Our GC curve is flat


----------



## mhammer

That was pretty quick. Glad to hear it was negative. The nasal swabs are for identifying presence of the virus. Antibody tests can be done with a wee bit of blood, and I understand that there are saliva tests in current development. The challenge, and potential problem, is "Does it flag ANY antibodies to a broad family of viruses (the corona type), or does it flag ONLY antibodies to Covid-19?". If the former, it _might_ be identifying the presence of a specific Covid-19 antibody, but might also be identifying something sorta kinda like Covid, but not _specifically_ Covid. It's a bit like the dart hitting the dartboard inside the outer ring, but not necessarily the bullseye.

What is also not entirely clear at the moment is what "level" of antibody production is sufficient to be equated with immunity. One can have an immune response that is measurable, but still insufficient to kick any tiny bit of virus out. In other words, your immune system is certainly "working on it", but not mastering the task just yet, such that the individual may still be infectious. I'm not so sure that window or response-strength threshold has been clearly identified just yet. Maybe it has. I just haven't heard any discussion about it. If anyone else has, please link to it.

And just to be clear, having a negative nasal swab test just means you don't have it *now*. That, in itself, *is* very good news, but it does not imply that one could not contract it from somewhere tomorrow. One can be justifiably relieved, but still need to remain vigilant.


----------



## davetcan

colchar said:


> The test was negative so:


Great news, for you and your mom.


----------



## allthumbs56

boyscout said:


> They are SO far from doing what they should be doing down there!
> 
> Here's that live flight-tracking site I posted in the political section a while back, still showing hundreds of flights in the air pretty much any time I look at it. Virtually no change in airline practices - apparently they're not serving snacks on planes to reduce contact.
> 
> Flightradar24: Live Flight Tracker - Real-Time Flight Tracker Map
> 
> When they're supporting that - and other incautious behaviors - how can they possibly know where they have problems? If they don't know where the problems are, how can they control them?


Can we tell how many are cargo?


----------



## Lincoln

allthumbs56 said:


> Great news! Keto's test was negative too. Time to start our own database?
> 
> # tested: 2
> # negative: 2
> 
> Our GC curve is flat


to continue the trending flatness, the wife & I were tested last Thursday. We're both negative too. Guess we've just got a common cold.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

colchar said:


> The US is completely fucked. Just fucked. Not only in how they are handling this, but in the attitudes of many of its people.
> 
> And speaking of tests, I wonder if the standard test we get simply tells us whether we have the virus, or whether we have the antibodies? Since my test was negative, I'd like to know if I have antibodies as that would go a long way towards easing my mind about possibly getting it in the future.


I am developing a theory that some countries, the US and Canada included are starting to run scenarios on how quickly and how many acceptable deaths they are willing to take to reach a herd immunity level. Since there is no real timing on a workable vaccine and there is always the possibility that they will never come up with one, they are looking at the next best alternative. It is clear that the economies cannot continue as they are in the medium to long term. I think we can all agree upon that. The death rate is becoming clearer as we move along and if it continues to hover in the 2-3% range then I think they are going to have to "absorb" the losses in order to save the countries. It's really just a matter of metering the hospitalized. They don't give a shit if you get it and drop dead at home. What they are worried about is the overloading of hospitals which would create mass panic and much death. Long term lockdowns simply won't go, people will revolt at some point. It's clear that the US wants to be the first major to get back to work, dangerous strategy but one that may pay off big.


----------



## davetcan

I suspect, at least in developed countries with reasonably good health care, that the actual mortality rate will be a lot closer to 1%, possibly less. Given the limited amount of people tested so far I would have expected the mortality rate to be significantly higher than 3 to 4%. We know the number of deaths, kinda, but we have no clue how many people actually have, or have had, the virus.



GuitarsCanada said:


> I am developing a theory that some countries, the US and Canada included are starting to run scenarios on how quickly and how many acceptable deaths they are willing to take to reach a herd immunity level. Since there is no real timing on a workable vaccine and there is always the possibility that they will never come up with one, they are looking at the next best alternative. It is clear that the economies cannot continue as they are in the medium to long term. I think we can all agree upon that. The death rate is becoming clearer as we move along and if it continues to hover in the 2-3% range then I think they are going to have to "absorb" the losses in order to save the countries. It's really just a matter of metering the hospitalized. They don't give a shit if you get it and drop dead at home. What they are worried about is the overloading of hospitals which would create mass panic and much death. Long term lockdowns simply won't go, people will revolt at some point. It's clear that the US wants to be the first major to get back to work, dangerous strategy but one that may pay off big.


----------



## keto

GuitarsCanada said:


> I am developing a theory that some countries, the US and Canada included are starting to run scenarios on how quickly and how many acceptable deaths they are willing to take to reach a herd immunity level. Since there is no real timing on a workable vaccine and there is always the possibility that they will never come up with one, they are looking at the next best alternative. It is clear that the economies cannot continue as they are in the medium to long term. I think we can all agree upon that. The death rate is becoming clearer as we move along and if it continues to hover in the 2-3% range then I think they are going to have to "absorb" the losses in order to save the countries. It's really just a matter of metering the hospitalized. They don't give a shit if you get it and drop dead at home. What they are worried about is the overloading of hospitals which would create mass panic and much death. Long term lockdowns simply won't go, people will revolt at some point. It's clear that the US wants to be the first major to get back to work, dangerous strategy but one that may pay off big.



Biggest problem will be, as I have continually theorized, people refusing to work. It's going to screw up all sorts of scenarios, not just health care. A little outbreak here, a little (or big, I'm not trying to downplay it) outbreak there, pretty soon you have no meat processing, or senior care, or ....hey wait, those are already happening.


----------



## keto

davetcan said:


> I suspect, at least in developed countries with reasonably good health care, that the actual mortality rate will be a lot closer to 1%, possibly less. Given the limited amount of people tested so far I would have expected the mortality rate to be significantly higher than 3 to 4%. We know the number of deaths, kinda, but we have no clue how many people actually have, or have had, the virus.



Nobody anywhere in the world has ANY idea how many cases there have been, though those with early and plentiful testing have better stats than, say, Canada. That is why, for me, the single and only stat that matters is deaths. Get back to me when a statistically significant portion of the population has an antibody test done. World or for that matter most country case numbers is just that, a number. Death rate almost has to be much MUCH lower than what is being reported.


----------



## davetcan

Yep.



keto said:


> Nobody anywhere in the world has ANY idea how many cases there have been, though those with early and plentiful testing have better stats than, say, Canada. That is why, for me, the single and only stat that matters is deaths. Get back to me when a statistically significant portion of the population has an antibody test done. World or for that matter most country case numbers is just that, a number. Death rate almost has to be much MUCH lower than what is being reported.


----------



## mhammer

GuitarsCanada said:


> I am developing a theory that some countries, the US and Canada included are starting to run scenarios on how quickly and how many acceptable deaths they are willing to take to reach a herd immunity level. Since there is no real timing on a workable vaccine and there is always the possibility that they will never come up with one, they are looking at the next best alternative. It is clear that the economies cannot continue as they are in the medium to long term. I think we can all agree upon that. The death rate is becoming clearer as we move along and if it continues to hover in the 2-3% range then I think they are going to have to "absorb" the losses in order to save the countries. It's really just a matter of metering the hospitalized. They don't give a shit if you get it and drop dead at home. What they are worried about is the overloading of hospitals which would create mass panic and much death. Long term lockdowns simply won't go, people will revolt at some point. It's clear that the US wants to be the first major to get back to work, dangerous strategy but one that may pay off big.


You do realize that the insurance payouts of just letting it run its course and kill an "acceptable" number of citizens would bankrupt most insurance companies and maybe even some reinsurers. It would probably decimate hospitals, and functional capacity of the country. In effect, NO economic recovery could take place. And remember that a significant share of Americans get their health coverage through their employer. Employers will not be able to afford to provide that employee-coverage as insurers struggle to offset their losses, leaving the majority of Americans without any health care. Now _there's_ an advantageous position!
I don't doubt that there are some more financially-minded and less civic-minded or compassionate people out there who view this as a matter of ROI. But the only viable road to recovery is to stem contagion by whatever means possible, for as long as it takes.
What we need to start hearing in the weeks before any sensible limited re-opening begins is an articulation of what will have to be sacrificed for the next little while. Governments will have blown their bundle in attempting to keep the nation afloat. That huge spike in national debt will require cuts to services, and people will need to be readied for that.


----------



## keto

mhammer said:


> You do realize that the insurance payouts of just letting it run its course and kill an "acceptable" number of citizens would bankrupt most insurance companies and maybe even some reinsurers. It would probably decimate hospitals, and functional capacity of the country. In effect, NO economic recovery could take place. And remember that a significant share of Americans get their health coverage through their employer. Employers will not be able to afford to provide that employee-coverage as insurers struggle to offset their losses, leaving the majority of Americans without any health care. Now _there's_ an advantageous position!
> I don't doubt that there are some more financially-minded and less civic-minded or compassionate people out there who view this as a matter of ROI. But the only viable road to recovery is to stem contagion by whatever means possible, for as long as it takes.
> What we need to start hearing in the weeks before any sensible limited re-opening begins is an articulation of what will have to be sacrificed for the next little while. Governments will have blown their bundle in attempting to keep the nation afloat. That huge spike in national debt will require cuts to services, and people will need to be readied for that.



Cuts in services just in time for the massive spike in poverty//unemployment. Think happy thoughts!


----------



## GuitarsCanada

mhammer said:


> You do realize that the insurance payouts of just letting it run its course and kill an "acceptable" number of citizens would bankrupt most insurance companies and maybe even some reinsurers. It would probably decimate hospitals, and functional capacity of the country. In effect, NO economic recovery could take place. And remember that a significant share of Americans get their health coverage through their employer. Employers will not be able to afford to provide that employee-coverage as insurers struggle to offset their losses, leaving the majority of Americans without any health care. Now _there's_ an advantageous position!
> I don't doubt that there are some more financially-minded and less civic-minded or compassionate people out there who view this as a matter of ROI. But the only viable road to recovery is to stem contagion by whatever means possible, for as long as it takes.
> What we need to start hearing in the weeks before any sensible limited re-opening begins is an articulation of what will have to be sacrificed for the next little while. Governments will have blown their bundle in attempting to keep the nation afloat. That huge spike in national debt will require cuts to services, and people will need to be readied for that.


Clarify "next little while". That's the $64,000 question. There is no perfect scenario in this, it's going to hurt and hurt bad no matter which way we go.


----------



## jb welder

Budda said:


> So is this thread for updates or just talking again? Can't tell, because it's at 50 pages and every time I check in I don't get much info.


Coronavirus spread: Number of people infected by COVID-19 may be 50-80 times higher than official count, Stanford study suggests

A New Symptom of COVID-19 Discovered - Somag News


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> The test was negative so:


Happy to hear that, for both you and your mom.


----------



## mhammer

jb welder said:


> Coronavirus spread: Number of people infected by COVID-19 may be 50-80 times higher than official count, Stanford study suggests
> 
> A New Symptom of COVID-19 Discovered - Somag News


As the article states: "Based on the prevalence of antibodies found in the 3,300 people tested, the Stanford researchers believe the actual proportion of the population who has been infected with the new coronavirus is somewhere between 2.5% and 4.2%." Again, are these antibodies specific or unique to Covid-19, or antibodies for a family of corona-type viruses that _include_ Covid-19? We await peer review of the paper. There is a difference between "could be as much as" 50-80 times greater, and "are" 50-80 times greater.

I'm not brushing it off with a wave of the hand, but there is additional information required to know how to interpret this. The one thing I would agree with, as would most here I imagine, is that, in the absence of census-like testing, published estimates from those who _have_ been tested are likely an underestimate of the true prevalence. How _much_ of an underestimate is a whole other matter.


----------



## colchar




----------



## keto

mhammer said:


> As the article states: "Based on the prevalence of antibodies found in the 3,300 people tested, the Stanford researchers believe the actual proportion of the population who has been infected with the new coronavirus is somewhere between 2.5% and 4.2%." Again, are these antibodies specific or unique to Covid-19, or antibodies for a family of corona-type viruses that _include_ Covid-19? We await peer review of the paper. There is a difference between "could be as much as" 50-80 times greater, and "are" 50-80 times greater.
> 
> I'm not brushing it off with a wave of the hand, but there is additional information required to know how to interpret this. The one thing I would agree with, as would most here I imagine, is that, in the absence of census-like testing, published estimates from those who _have_ been tested are likely an underestimate of the true prevalence. How _much_ of an underestimate is a whole other matter.


I'm reading criticism of the study on another site, it's nothing like random. People who thought they might have had it were the primary test subjects.


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## mhammer

colchar said:


> View attachment 306340


A fullsome synopsis of the prevailing logic.


----------



## mhammer

keto said:


> I'm reading criticism of the study on another site, it's nothing like random. People who thought they might have had it were the primary test subjects.


Observational studies are the bane of scientific existence. The trouble is that anything of societal import is either not the sort of thing one could impose on individuals via random assignment to "treatment" and "control" groups, or else impossible to evaluate enough of the population (if not everyone) to rule out self-selection. We're always stuck with "volunteers" who are self-selecting. If we knew everything one needed to know about the differences between volunteers who do and don't show some particular outcome of interest, that'd be great. Unfortunately we only learn to inquire about those to-start-with differences AFTER we've done the studies.

One of my favorite examples of this dilemma was a Scottish study looking at the so-called "protective" effects of alcohol ingestion. Several well-respected and widely-cited large-scale observational studies had asked participants about their daily/weekly alcohol intake, and found the incidence of heart disease was kind of Nike-swoosh-shaped. That is, somewhat high incidence of heart disease in those whose alcohol intake was zero, dropping way down for those who only drank a teensy bit, and gradually-increasing the more alcohol you drank on a regular basis. The traditional interpretation of this observed pattern was that a little bit of wine or beer would have some "protective" effect, because the folks who drank a little were in better shape heart-wise than the tee-totalers. The Scottish investigators decided to go a step beyond and inquired as to _why_ the non-drinkers were non-drinkers. Turned out that a significant portion _had_ been very heavy drinkers and had reformed. In other words, the heart damage had already been done before they self-selected into the I-don't-drink segment of the population.

Like I say, if we knew ALL the questions we needed to ask of volunteers to observational studies, interpretation would be valid and easy. But as this study illustrates, too often we learn what we _should_ have asked late in the game.


----------



## oldjoat

similar to a "study" done back in the 70's
the results were slanted in favour of brand X by asking specific questions.

which would you advise your patients to brush their teeth with :
A .... sh*t
B .... brand X

the results were ... 9 out of 10 dentists recommend brand X .

BTW ... the study was on a fictitious product


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> The US is completely fucked. Just fucked. Not only in how they are handling this, but in the attitudes of many of its people.


Thinking that you are "greatest nation on earth" is a bit like Icarus thinking he was the best damn flyer in Crete.


----------



## oldjoat

but he was ... right after his father.


----------



## DavidP

Really good item in this week's (April 17) issue of _Science_: "The lockdowns worked—but what comes next?". 
It outlines the "R" factor that will be critical in mapping a return to some kind of normality...


----------



## boyscout

davetcan said:


> I suspect, at least in developed countries with reasonably good health care, that the actual mortality rate will be a lot closer to 1%, possibly less. Given the limited amount of people tested so far I would have expected the mortality rate to be significantly higher than 3 to 4%. We know the number of deaths, kinda, but we have no clue how many people actually have, or have had, the virus.


Our mortality rate as of this morning was, in fact, 4.4% since (as you said) we haven't identified even close to all the people who have been infected with it but we've identified most of those who have died from it.

The study I posted in the political section earlier today that suggests that the actual mortality rate if every infected person was accounted for is probably in a range between 0.1% to 0.34%. The common seasonal flu has a mortality rate of about 0.1%.


----------



## boyscout

mhammer said:


> That huge spike in national debt will require cuts to services, and people will need to be readied for that.


Reductions of programs should be accompanied by layoffs in the civil service and labor unions will need to be readied for that.


----------



## davetcan

And given the fact that the common Flu numbers include people who take the seasonal Flu vaccines we could be dealing with something here that is no more deadly. We just may have shut down the world for nothing, but I think we had to try to get ahead of it.



boyscout said:


> Our mortality rate as of this morning was, in fact, 4.4% since (as you said) we haven't identified even close to all the people who have been infected with it but we've identified most of those who have died from it.
> 
> The study I posted in the political section earlier today that suggests that the actual mortality rate if every infected person was accounted for is probably in a range between 0.1% to 0.34%. The common seasonal flu has a mortality rate of about 0.1%.


----------



## Doug Gifford

jb welder said:


> A New Symptom of COVID-19 Discovered - Somag News


Hmm. I had one of those on top of my left large toe. It's gone now and just a rough patch left. I assumed it was just some getting-old thing. No other symptoms and no reason to suspect that I've been exposed. Probably just some getting-old thing.


----------



## Distortion

boyscout said:


> Reductions of programs should be accompanied by layoffs in the civil service and labor unions will need to be readied for that.


That ain't going to happen until most people are starving to death. Again most public sector employee's will come out of this smelling like a rose. Most are getting full wage sitting at home on their arse.


----------



## colchar

boyscout said:


> Our mortality rate as of this morning was, in fact, 4.4% since (as you said) we haven't identified even close to all the people who have been infected with it but we've identified most of those who have died from it.
> 
> The study I posted in the political section earlier today that suggests that the actual mortality rate if every infected person was accounted for is probably in a range between 0.1% to 0.34%. The common seasonal flu has a mortality rate of about 0.1%.



Given that reality, one does have to wonder why the reaction to this was so extreme compared to seasonal flu, H1N1, etc.


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> Thinking that you are "greatest nation on earth" is a bit like Icarus thinking he was the best damn flyer in Crete.


----------



## boyscout

davetcan said:


> And given the fact that the common Flu numbers include people who take the seasonal Flu vaccines we could be dealing with something here that is no more deadly. We just may have shut down the world for nothing, but I think we had to try to get ahead of it.


Two significant differences: this one appears to be more successful at spreading itself around, and requires more health care resources because it gets deeper into lung tissue such that many people can't just fight it off at home, they need medical assistance.

Not controlling it would overwhelm health care services, whereupon mortality rates would climb.


----------



## boyscout

colchar said:


> Given that reality, one does have to wonder why the reaction to this was so extreme compared to seasonal flu, H1N1, etc.


See previous post #829


----------



## colchar

boyscout said:


> Two significant differences: this one appears to be more successful at spreading itself around, and requires more health care resources because it gets deeper into lung tissue such that many people can't just fight it off at home, they need medical assistance.
> 
> Not controlling it would overwhelm health care services, whereupon mortality rates would climb.




Fair points.


----------



## colchar

boyscout said:


> See post #829



See post #831


----------



## GuitarsCanada

boyscout said:


> Our mortality rate as of this morning was, in fact, 4.4% since (as you said) we haven't identified even close to all the people who have been infected with it but we've identified most of those who have died from it.
> 
> The study I posted in the political section earlier today that suggests that the actual mortality rate if every infected person was accounted for is probably in a range between 0.1% to 0.34%. The common seasonal flu has a mortality rate of about 0.1%.


There is no way to validate the seasonal flu numbers either. Like this virus, untold thousands of people contract the flu every year and never seek medical treatment. But I would agree that the COVID numbers are most likely much lower based on the amount of people that have been infected and never registered into the data.


----------



## davetcan

boyscout said:


> Two significant differences: this one appears to be more successful at spreading itself around, and requires more health care resources because it gets deeper into lung tissue such that many people can't just fight it off at home, they need medical assistance.
> 
> Not controlling it would overwhelm health care services, whereupon mortality rates would climb.


As i said we still had to try to get ahead of it. Hindsight will always be 20/20 .


----------



## Distortion

On a bright note. NY state is opening golf fields and boat launches. Daily hospital intake rates and deaths are coming down.


----------



## tomee2

davetcan said:


> And given the fact that the common Flu numbers include people who take the seasonal Flu vaccines we could be dealing with something here that is no more deadly. We just may have shut down the world for nothing, but I think we had to try to get ahead of it.


This keeps coming up... it's a "novel" virus meaning no humans have immunity. It kills people in their 20s or 30s, the flu dosen't. People getting flu shots or getting the flu every year are being exposed to similar virus strains year after year and therefore react mildly to it if they do get it, or are immune to it and dont get it and don't spread it (and you dont ever know this happened...but it's why vaccines work) 
This one is new, never seen no one has antibodies so it spreads quickly. 
This is why China locked people in their homes.


----------



## mhammer

boyscout said:


> Our mortality rate as of this morning was, in fact, 4.4% since (as you said) we haven't identified even close to all the people who have been infected with it but we've identified most of those who have died from it.
> 
> The study I posted in the political section earlier today that suggests that the actual mortality rate if every infected person was accounted for is probably in a range between 0.1% to 0.34%. The common seasonal flu has a mortality rate of about 0.1%.


Keep in mind that 0.1% for the flu is one out of 1000 people whom we _know_ have the flu and are down with it. That figure does _not_ include people walking around feeling tip-top with no symptoms that might prompt a throat swab. I highly doubt we have any notion of the prevalence of asymptomatic influenza in the general public, for the very same reasons we have no idea of the prevalence of asymptomatic covid-19 in the general public. So, until everyone gets tested who feels they need to be tested - just like every person who would normally go to a walk-in clinic with sniffles and a low-grade temperature looking for a doctor's note and prescription - the 4.4% estimate is about as accurate as we're going to get. It _will_ likely go down, as we test more and learn more about the prevalence of asymptomatic carriers, and as we learn more about effective treatments of those affected (being near death is not the same as dying). The fact still remains that, of 1000 people who feel they're coming down with the flu or something like it, 1 dies, and of 1000 people flagged as having Covid-19, 4.4 die.

I know the catchphrase is "Test, test, test" but it's companion phrase should be "Baseline, baseline, baseline". That's what you acquire from testing, and its how you know what testing results mean.


----------



## tomee2

Deleted....


----------



## mhammer

Lighten up on the boy. He has enough to contend with.

Plus that new Explorer is probably a bit of a distraction.


----------



## tomee2

mhammer said:


> Lighten up on the boy. He has enough to contend with.
> 
> Plus that new Explorer is probably a bit of a distraction.


You're right.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

I am wondering.....

There is some consensus in that this virus came from a bat in the wet market. Or at least as near as anyone can tell, and it's a good of a theory as any.
Given that people are eating bats, that can't be a new thing right? I mean really, unless you have a cultural history of eating something, most people just eat what they've been eating for generations. Albeit a few exceptions to that rule, but generally speaking.
So, how (or why) does this virus manifest itself now, instead of years, or maybe even decades ago in the history of people eating bats?
To my mind, there has to be a history of bat eating if it is going on now. Not too often does something brand new enter the culinary tradition of most peoples.


----------



## allthumbs56

boyscout said:


> Reductions of programs should be accompanied by layoffs in the civil service and labor unions will need to be readied for that.


I'm thinkin' replace 90% of the teachers with babysitters and online learning. Slide all of those savings over to healthcare .


----------



## tomee2

Jim DaddyO said:


> I am wondering.....
> 
> There is some consensus in that this virus came from a bat in the wet market. Or at least as near as anyone can tell, and it's a good of a theory as any.
> Given that people are eating bats, that can't be a new thing right? I mean really, unless you have a cultural history of eating something, most people just eat what they've been eating for generations. Albeit a few exceptions to that rule, but generally speaking.
> So, how (or why) does this virus manifest itself now, instead of years, or maybe even decades ago in the history of people eating bats?
> To my mind, there has to be a history of bat eating if it is going on now. Not too often does something brand new enter the culinary tradition of most peoples.


Randomness of nature is my guess. Other viruses may have been transfered, but they didnt do anything, or killed people too quickly to spread. SARS and MERS, and H1N1 were all transfered from an animal to humans, so it does happen.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> The US is completely fucked. Just fucked. Not only in how they are handling this, but in the attitudes of many of its people.
> 
> And speaking of tests, I wonder if the standard test we get simply tells us whether we have the virus, or whether we have the antibodies? Since my test was negative, I'd like to know if I have antibodies as that would go a long way towards easing my mind about possibly getting it in the future.


I think the test for the antibodies is the blood test some countries are doing. I believe the frive thru swab test is just to see if you have it or not.
note.....that should be drive, not frive. I wonder if punching the wrong keys is a 'new' symptom?


----------



## keto

Electraglide said:


> I think the test for the antibodies is the blood test some countries are doing. I believe the frive thru swab test is just to see if you have it or not.


Yup. NY State starting a big program of blood testing for antibodies this week Gov. Andrew Cuomo says New York will roll out antibody testing in 'aggressive way' this week


----------



## Electraglide

Doug Gifford said:


> Hmm. I had one of those on top of my left large toe. It's gone now and just a rough patch left. I assumed it was just some getting-old thing. No other symptoms and no reason to suspect that I've been exposed. Probably just some getting-old thing.


Now is it a red spot/patch or a purple spot/patch? Do your shoes fit ok and have you been kicking things lately? Probably just a getting old thing.


----------



## Electraglide

tomee2 said:


> This keeps coming up... it's a "novel" virus meaning no humans have immunity. It kills people in their 20s or 30s, the flu dosen't. People getting flu shots or getting the flu every year are being exposed to similar virus strains year after year and therefore react mildly to it if they do get it, or are immune to it and dont get it and don't spread it (and you dont ever know this happened...but it's why vaccines work)
> This one is new, never seen no one has antibodies so it spreads quickly.
> This is why China locked people in their homes.


According to this thing from WHO influenza kills up to 650,000 people a year. Young, old, it doesn't matter. You build up the antibodies after you get the flu so while you are getting it you're not safe.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> I am wondering.....
> 
> There is some consensus in that this virus came from a bat in the wet market. Or at least as near as anyone can tell, and it's a good of a theory as any.
> Given that people are eating bats, that can't be a new thing right? I mean really, unless you have a cultural history of eating something, most people just eat what they've been eating for generations. Albeit a few exceptions to that rule, but generally speaking.
> So, how (or why) does this virus manifest itself now, instead of years, or maybe even decades ago in the history of people eating bats?
> To my mind, there has to be a history of bat eating if it is going on now. Not too often does something brand new enter the culinary tradition of most peoples.



It could have been something new to the bats themselves, whether something in them mutated or it came to them from another source.


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> I think the test for the antibodies is the blood test some countries are doing. I believe the frive thru swab test is just to see if you have it or not.
> note.....that should be drive, not frive. I wonder if punching the wrong keys is a 'new' symptom?


Given that I haven't had to gas up the car in over a month, it feels like I'm "driving for free". So maybe that's what "friving" is.


----------



## mhammer

I haven't dug up any items on it myself, but my older son tells me AirB&B is collapsing. That could be a speck of good news if true. I don't have anything against AirB&B itself; it was a clever idea by a couple of desperate guys trying to make their rent. But it has spawned a tidal wave of people buying up housing in the downtown core to use as "ghost hotels", removing potential affordable family housing from the market, and disadvantaging those businesses that have paid their taxes and provided work for people. And as many of you are probably aware, a significant share of those units by single owners, often foreign, rather than being a bedroom you're not using because your kid is off at university. If those units mortgaged as income properties have to be quickly sold because they're NOT generating income while tourism is scratched, that may make more family housing available on the market at reasonable prices. That's a good thing.


----------



## oldjoat

unfortunately , a lot of those foreign owned properties don't have mortgages on them ( wealthy investors ) 
and they'll swoop in to buy more at rock bottom prices .... so those "units" will never hit the streets for families.

lotsa $$$ in the middle east , china , europe , etc ....


----------



## bolero

here is a reminder of how fast the virus can spread & flare up, if we are not careful:

What led to Alberta's biggest outbreak? Cargill meat plant's hundreds of COVID-19 cases | CBC News

"Previously, there were only 38 known cases associated with the Cargill outbreak. On Friday, Hinshaw said there are now 358 cases identified in households connected to Cargill — a figure that represents 15 per cent of all cases in Alberta, and more than the entire province of Saskatchewan."

started with a few people in a workplace, and spread to all their offsite families/contacts in a matter of days


----------



## laristotle

oldjoat said:


> lotsa $$$ in the middle east , china , europe , etc ....


A good portion of which is laundered through real estate, I imagine.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> I'm thinkin' replace 90% of the teachers with babysitters and online learning. Slide all of those savings over to healthcare .



There's a surprising number of people who seem to think that public education is a government sponsored baby sitting service anyway.

I heard far too many complaints when the Ontario teacher's strikes were headline news to the effect of, "who's going to help us pay for day care now that the kids aren't in school every day".

Very little real concern about education, just a sense of entitlement to free day care.


----------



## Guitar101

mhammer said:


> Given that I haven't had to gas up the car in over a month, it feels like I'm "driving for free". So maybe that's what "friving" is.


Same here. A little disappointing that with gas prices so low, we can't take advantage if the low prices because we're not driving that much. I am however, in the process of getting a rebate back from my car insurance company.


----------



## Milkman

deleted


----------



## Milkman

Is there too much of a rush to return to business operations?

What led to Alberta's biggest outbreak? Cargill meat plant's hundreds of COVID-19 cases | CBC News


----------



## boyscout

Milkman said:


> Is there too much of a rush to return to business operations?
> 
> What led to Alberta's biggest outbreak? Cargill meat plant's hundreds of COVID-19 cases | CBC News


If officials have a good idea of where the infections are and where on a curve the numbers of infections are, and if sensible precautions are in place at work and at home, and if vigilant monitoring continues, it's not a crazy idea. A lot of 'ifs', but awareness of the seriousness of this bug may by now be enough to tip the 'ifs' the right way.

Alberta does have a bit of a leg up on knowing where the infections are, and is reportedly ahead of the ball on treating what comes up. Ontario and Quebec, not so much.


----------



## boyscout

allthumbs56 said:


> Can we tell how many are cargo?


Good point, I don't know. Do other countries have so much less cargo moving around?


----------



## tomee2

Forget it. I'm done.


----------



## Distortion

877 deaths in Quebec and 0 in neighbouring New Brunswick. Something does not seem right with these stats .


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> Is there too much of a rush to return to business operations?
> 
> What led to Alberta's biggest outbreak? Cargill meat plant's hundreds of COVID-19 cases | CBC News


As far as I know places like Cargill never shut down. People still have to eat.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Electraglide said:


> As far as I know places like Cargill never shut down. People still have to eat.


AFAIK, eating is an essential service. Imagine, though, if we ease off restrictions too early and people start to die for haircuts and Barbie dolls.


----------



## High/Deaf

Jim DaddyO said:


> I am wondering.....
> 
> There is some consensus in that this virus came from a bat in the wet market. Or at least as near as anyone can tell, and it's a good of a theory as any.
> Given that people are eating bats, that can't be a new thing right?  I mean really, unless you have a cultural history of eating something, most people just eat what they've been eating for generations. Albeit a few exceptions to that rule, but generally speaking.
> So, how (or why) does this virus manifest itself now, instead of years, or maybe even decades ago in the history of people eating bats?
> To my mind, there has to be a history of bat eating if it is going on now. Not too often does something brand new enter the culinary tradition of most peoples.


Genetic mutations. Much like how a basic mammalian quadruped became a biped became a human. A number of tiny random mutations over a very long period of time.

So a bat virus mutates a wee bit and is now able to jump species, eventually ending up as a human disease. Very rare, but it can and does happen, especially if you allow for situations that make species-jump easy.

Think of these genetic mutations that can become a human disease like rolling 100 dice and getting 100 'sixes'. It will happen, but it won't happen very often. Like this kind of new disease, maybe every 100 years? But it could also happen two years later, as unlikely as that is. It's all a crap-shoot. Because there is no way to control genetic mutations, we should do everything we can to reduce the chance of species-jump. Yes, I'm looking at you, Wet Markets!


----------



## Electraglide

Doug Gifford said:


> AFAIK, eating is an essential service. Imagine, though, if we ease off restrictions too early and people start to die for haircuts and Barbie dolls.


Looking at the specs there's a better chance of that happening in Que. than say NB or BC. As far as Barbie's gfo, they sell those in Wallyworld.


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## GuitarsCanada

Coronavirus with no symptoms? Reports suggest many have unknowingly had virus


----------



## Electraglide

GuitarsCanada said:


> Coronavirus with no symptoms? Reports suggest many have unknowingly had virus


Good reason to get those blood tests out there for everyone.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Electraglide said:


> Good reason to get those blood tests out there for everyone.


I am still wondering if my whole family did not have it. I noted that back in the now defunct thread. All of us came down with a terrible flu shortly after our Xmas dinner together. It was brutal and hit a lot of us twice. As mentioned, my son ended up in the hospital with pneumonia, the rest of us were sick as dogs, worse flu I ever had and my wife, who never get's sick, spent 3 days in bed. The big factor in that one is my Daughter and her husband had just came back home a week earlier from a cruise to Italy and Greece.


----------



## boyscout

allthumbs56 said:


> Can we tell how many are cargo?


Did a little more digging on this... not exhaustive research, but a bit.

It seems that typically about 10% of flights in the U.S. are cargo-only flights (surprisingly low!) Many passenger flights also carry some cargo.

At the following link we can see that daily flights were nudging close to 200,000 per day a few months ago. Getting close to the end of March (horrifying that it took that long!) it had dropped by half and now seems to be leveling off at about 75,000 flights per day.

Flight tracking statistics - Real-time flight tracker | Flightradar24

If we use (because it's all I have, not because it's reliably accurate) the American 10% figure across the globe we can speculate that cargo flights may have remained at about 20,000 per day while passenger flights have dropped to about 55,000 per day.

Still, 55,000 passenger flights per day. Returning to visit the FlightRadar main page at the link below, one can click on any aircraft and see it's origin, destination, and type of aircraft. Playing with that for a while shows that there are still a lot of planes in the air that are very likely passenger flights, and at the moment it's not hard to find a big double-handful of them on their way to Canada from England, Germany, and other countries that have not resolved their own Covid-19 issues.

Flightradar24: Live Flight Tracker - Real-Time Flight Tracker Map

Good thing we have such extremely thorough screening in place at our airports.


----------



## mhammer

High/Deaf said:


> Genetic mutations. Much like how a basic mammalian quadruped became a biped became a human. A number of tiny random mutations over a very long period of time.
> 
> So a bat virus mutates a wee bit and is now able to jump species, eventually ending up as a human disease. Very rare, but it can and does happen, especially if you allow for situations that make species-jump easy.
> 
> Think of these genetic mutations that can become a human disease like rolling 100 dice and getting 100 'sixes'. It will happen, but it won't happen very often. Like this kind of new disease, maybe every 100 years? But it could also happen two years later, as unlikely as that is. It's all a crap-shoot. Because there is no way to control genetic mutations, we should do everything we can to reduce the chance of species-jump. Yes, I'm looking at you, Wet Markets!


The simpler the organism, and the shorter its reproductive time-frame (i.e., how long it takes to produce another generation), the faster it mutates and evolves. That's how we don't see substantial changes to human biology over the span of millenia, but do see changes to moths and other insects over the course of a decade, and evolved changes to single-celled life-forms (e.g., antibiotic-resistant bacteria) in an even shorter time. It _can_ happen that a species reaches a sort of stasis in evolution, as it has with some reptiles, sharks, and such, but the general principle holds true of faster-reproduction/duplication = more observable genetic change within a given time frame.


----------



## mhammer

Interesting piece: Responding to COVID-19 in the Developing World - By Saugato Datta - Behavioral Scientist


----------



## Robert1950

Finally hit home. A good friend of mine I have known since high school in the 60s has died from Covid-19. Part of a close social circle in early 70s. I was the casual photographer at her wedding in the late 70s. Saw her a lot on and off until the mid 2000s. Last talked her about 6 years ago before I retired and moved out west - she was early stage Alzheimer disease. She was placed in a long term care a few months,... yep caught the virus and died yesterday. Another victim of what is becoming Canada's next biggest embarrassment (to put it light) Long Term Care warehouses,... I mean facilities. But that is another topic for DEBATE. I am going to add a face to give this some real meaning, other than another number. I took this photo in 2005 when she was 53.


----------



## Electraglide

Robert1950 said:


> Finally hit home. A good friend of mine I have known since high school in the 60s has died from Covid-19. Part of a close social circle in early 70s. I was the casual photographer at her wedding in the late 70s. Saw her a lot on and off until the mid 2000s. Last talked her about 6 years ago before I retired and moved out west - she was early stage Alzheimer disease. She was placed in a long term care a few months,... yep caught the virus and died yesterday. Another victim of what is becoming Canada's next biggest embarrassment (to put it light) Long Term Care warehouses,... I mean facilities. But that is another topic for DEBATE. I am going to add a face to give this some real meaning, other than another number. I took this photo in 2005 when she was 53.
> 
> View attachment 306494


Sorry about that. As far as I know, with people I know who have died in the last 6 months or so Covi-19 hasn't been a contributing factor. Maybe they were just lucky.....not sure.


----------



## colchar

Robert1950 said:


> Finally hit home. A good friend of mine I have known since high school in the 60s has died from Covid-19. Part of a close social circle in early 70s. I was the casual photographer at her wedding in the late 70s. Saw her a lot on and off until the mid 2000s. Last talked her about 6 years ago before I retired and moved out west - she was early stage Alzheimer disease. She was placed in a long term care a few months,... yep caught the virus and died yesterday. Another victim of what is becoming Canada's next biggest embarrassment (to put it light) Long Term Care warehouses,... I mean facilities. But that is another topic for DEBATE. I am going to add a face to give this some real meaning, other than another number. I took this photo in 2005 when she was 53.
> 
> View attachment 306494



Sorry to hear that.

My Mum lives with me and has early stage Alzheimer's. My brother and I had been considering transitioning her into a senior's home but this pandemic has made me rethink that and I'll probably just end up finding some source of help at home (I badly need help caring for her).

And you're right, care homes do need to be talked about.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

High/Deaf said:


> Genetic mutations. Much like how a basic mammalian quadruped became a biped became a human. A number of tiny random mutations over a very long period of time.
> 
> So a bat virus mutates a wee bit and is now able to jump species, eventually ending up as a human disease. Very rare, but it can and does happen, especially if you allow for situations that make species-jump easy.
> 
> Think of these genetic mutations that can become a human disease like rolling 100 dice and getting 100 'sixes'. It will happen, but it won't happen very often. Like this kind of new disease, maybe every 100 years? But it could also happen two years later, as unlikely as that is. It's all a crap-shoot. Because there is no way to control genetic mutations, we should do everything we can to reduce the chance of species-jump. Yes, I'm looking at you, Wet Markets!


Yeah, that makes sense.

I also wonder about how much the wet markets had to do with aiding the mutation rate. I think a lot. You have animals in close proximity from 5 different continents that would normally never come close to each other. That has to be some sort of unknown cocktail of genetics right there.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Robert1950 said:


> Finally hit home. A good friend of mine I have known since high school in the 60s has died from Covid-19. Part of a close social circle in early 70s. I was the casual photographer at her wedding in the late 70s. Saw her a lot on and off until the mid 2000s. Last talked her about 6 years ago before I retired and moved out west - she was early stage Alzheimer disease. She was placed in a long term care a few months,... yep caught the virus and died yesterday. Another victim of what is becoming Canada's next biggest embarrassment (to put it light) Long Term Care warehouses,... I mean facilities. But that is another topic for DEBATE. I am going to add a face to give this some real meaning, other than another number. I took this photo in 2005 when she was 53.
> 
> View attachment 306494


My condolences. Taken too young.


----------



## mhammer

Saw an interesting YT video this morning discussing the range of virus immunities out there to different types of viruses. Specifically, the range of immunity-_durations_. At one end of the spectrum are immunities like that to chickenpox, which can last decades (though less for some people, who are susceptible to shingles in middle age) In the middle are immunities like that to whooping cough which requires a booster shot to extend and sustain immunity for a longer period, and H1N1 and SARS, where immunity is not quite as long, but long enough to foster herd immunity. And at the other end is fairly short-lived immunity to cold virus and HIV, which keep mutating fast enough that vaccine-creation is virtually impossible. Where Covid-19 fits on that spectrum is, of course, difficult to assess at this point, because the world has only been aware of it for around 5 months.

That doesn't make antibody tests moot, because one can't know how long immunity lasts unless you know when it began, and that requires testing people to know they have contracted it and "won", as indicated by the presence of sufficient antibody levels, and the absence of any symptoms of current infection.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> That doesn't make antibody tests moot, because one can't know how long immunity lasts unless you know when it began, and that requires testing people to know they have contracted it and "won", as indicated by the presence of sufficient antibody levels, and the absence of any symptoms of current infection.


Antibody tests are becoming an important tool in the Covid-19 toolbox in many other countries. Canada will eventually realize that and will enthusiastically adapt.


----------



## boyscout

allthumbs56 said:


> Antibody tests are becoming an important tool in the Covid-19 toolbox in many other countries. Canada will eventually realize that and will enthusiastically adapt.


Wonder how many deaths that late realization is going to cost us?


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> Canada will eventually realize that and will enthusiastically adapt.


Once the WHO catches up to speed and informs them.


----------



## High/Deaf

boyscout said:


> Wonder how many deaths that late realization is going to cost us?


Deaths and dollars. That sort of test is vital to us edging back into a productive society. Assuming that's the way we want to go ......................


----------



## keto

I definitely believe he's right, I've been saying for a few weeks now. Not just for the USA.
Coronavirus cases are likely 10 to 20 times higher in US than reported, former FDA chief Gottlieb says

“And so that puts us at a case fatality rate of around 1%, perhaps a little less — what we’ve been figuring all along,” he said.


----------



## laristotle

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2456289191350159


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Antibody tests are becoming an important tool in the Covid-19 toolbox in many other countries. Canada will eventually realize that and will enthusiastically adapt.


As they should be. But again, what nobody knows at this point is whether those signs of _recent_ successful immune response are signs of a _lasting_ immune response. They _might_ be, and that would be wonderful, but with 5 months of data to go on, at the very most, we're not exactly at the point where we can say person X is 100% okay and will not succumb to the virus or be contagious for years, or decades, to come. We'll still need to keep our guard up until we know for sure. I hope that message is conveyed by officials, and understood by the public.


----------



## keto

This is a 'mostly headlines' page, but among them:
-"A vaccine developed by researchers at Oxford University will be tested on people on Thursday, Health Minister Matt Hancock said in a daily news briefing."
-Italy is targeting May 4 for partial reopening
-some political stuff, so forewarned. Lots of other business headlines, all negative. It's really the first bullet that caught my attention.
Coronavirus live updates: New York's unemployment system collapses, UK begins human vaccine trials this week


----------



## mhammer

keto said:


> I definitely believe he's right, I've been saying for a few weeks now. Not just for the USA.
> Coronavirus cases are likely 10 to 20 times higher in US than reported, former FDA chief Gottlieb says
> 
> “And so that puts us at a case fatality rate of around 1%, perhaps a little less — what we’ve been figuring all along,” he said.


One of the difficulties with samples, like Gottlieb turns to (863 people, presumably randomly sampled), is that extrapolating to the broader public is based on a model of "weights", predicated on what something is associated with. So if there were, for instance 420 males and 433 females in that sample, 87 people over the age of 65 (roughly half of whom might be male, and maybe 11 of whom are found to have antibodies, implying prior infection), the percentage of that sample that is found to be infected is then generalized to the larger population, based on the percentage of that larger population that is male, female, older, younger, Hispanic, etc. But that model assumes equal susceptibility to contracting the virus. Does a sample like that "adjust" for whether you work outside the home currently vs. work in your spare-bedroom virtual office? Does it adjust for how many persons per sq ft there are in your dwelling, or whether someone else in your family is obliged to go out regularly for their work (e.g., a nurse, medic, or agricultural worker), or whether you have any pre-existing respiratory issues? There are a number of important risk factors that one cannot possibly statistically adjust for, in order to provide usable estimates for the broader population, with a sample like that. I'll agree that the incidence out in the general populace is most _certainly_ greater than the number of people who came forward to get tested because they felt like crap and needed to know right now. But this isn't voting patterns, where one can take 1000 people, and extrapolate the results based on age, gender and ethnicity patterns. The estimates are only as good as the model used, and at this point, the model is changing weekly.

And to beat that horse to a bloody pulp with a stick, that one has antibodies to the virus provides NO substantial dependable indication _*yet*_ that you wouldn't again succumb to the virus 5 months from now.


----------



## boyscout

mhammer said:


> As they should be. But again, what nobody knows at this point is whether those signs of _recent_ successful immune response are signs of a _lasting_ immune response. They _might_ be, and that would be wonderful, but with 5 months of data to go on, at the very most, we're not exactly at the point where we can say person X is 100% okay and will not succumb to the virus or be contagious for years, or decades, to come. We'll still need to keep our guard up until we know for sure. I hope that message is conveyed by officials, and understood by the public.


Again the difference in our perspectives is starkly apparent.

I have NO problem believing that medical professionals can be properly warned about the risks that dominate your fretting about the antibody tests. I have NO problem believing that the vast majority of their patients can understand warnings given to them by their doctors/nurses that a positive antibody test isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card; that they must remain cautious and vigilant against both getting and spreading the virus.

No problem. The vast majority are grownups. There ARE smart and thoughtful and careful people outside of the world of bureaucrats. The risk is likely VERY small (I can't prove that it is any more than you can prove that it isn't) but very small that careless use of the tests will release significant-enough numbers of contagious people into the population to re-spark or even sustain significant waves of viral infections.

For the same reason, nor is the risk of false results - widely heard-about in the stirred-up clamor here where officials are dragging feet on the tests, but raising remarkably less alarm elsewhere that they are in use - nor is that risk significant enough to not use the tests.

Balanced against the small risks the tests have benefits, adding to intelligence about the NOVEL (i.e. we don't know much about it) virus, about where it has been and may still be, about antibodies that may be useful in creating vaccines, in identifying people who may be at lower risk in undertaking certain essential roles where those roles are stressed, and a large handful of other benefits.

We should be throwing everything we have at this thing as fast as we can without taking big risks of seriously exacerbating the problem. The use of antibody tests certainly doesn't fall under that latter description. People who know a LOT more about it than you or I decided that over a month ago in other places, while Canadian officials continue to dither about it.


----------



## keto

More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study

"The nationwide study was not a rigorous experiment. But with 368 patients, it’s the largest look so far of hydroxychloroquine with or without the antibiotic azithromycin for COVID-19......
Researchers analyzed medical records of 368 male veterans hospitalized with confirmed coronavirus infection at Veterans Health Administration medical centers who died or were discharged by April 11.

About 28% who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11% of those getting routine care alone. About 22% of those getting the drug plus azithromycin died too, but the difference between that group and usual care was not considered large enough to rule out other factors that could have affected survival.

Hydroxychloroquine made no difference in the need for a breathing machine, either.

Researchers did not track side effects, but noted hints that hydroxychloroquine might have damaged other organs. The drug has long been known to have potentially serious side effects, including altering the heartbeat in a way that could lead to sudden death."


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> As they should be. But again, what nobody knows at this point is whether those signs of _recent_ successful immune response are signs of a _lasting_ immune response. They _might_ be, and that would be wonderful, but with 5 months of data to go on, at the very most, we're not exactly at the point where we can say person X is 100% okay and will not succumb to the virus or be contagious for years, or decades, to come. We'll still need to keep our guard up until we know for sure. I hope that message is conveyed by officials, and understood by the public.


And I might get run over by a bus. There's nothing definite or predictable about anything right now. There are also a lot of poorly made serum test kits apparently. Then there's Germany testing their entire population using Made-In-Germany kits.

"Hiding and Waiting" is not a strategy in wars, horror movies, or Covid-19. It truly is time to be less bureaucratic and more entrepreneurial. It doesn't mean we have to be studid.


----------



## mhammer

Scout,
You're inferring more than I have said.
I have no quarrel with cranking up the amount of testing, and I thoroughly expect the test to be used thoughtfully and strategically by public health officials. It's a _great_ first step. The question is what that testing information means, and what policy choices one makes about what to do _next_, at the societal, corporate, and personal level. As I've noted, we have some reasonable guesses at this point, but no solid information to know what _current_ antibody presence means for one's immunity months or a year or 3 years from now. One may be good to go back to work for the next two months, but what about after then? We simply don't know. It's entirely possible that antibody-presence today means you're immune for the next umpteen years, like with chickenpox. It's possible that one is immune until this time next year, and a vaccine becomes available to help nailing that immunity in place, like a booster shot does. But with only 5 months of data on persistence of immune response, what sort of chance do policy-makers take? I would hope a cautious and prudent one.

Those protest doofuses in Michigan, Minnesota, and Colorado, and various governors, and even the people in my neighbourhood who insist on walking their respective dogs in groups, strike me as not particularly observant in their application of public health information.
And even if the vast majority of people ARE responsible and thoughtful, it certainly wasn't an "invasion" of a million infected persons who brought this to North American from Europe and East Asia. It only requires a very small share of the general populace to extend this particular curse. And if 98% of the North American population is smart enough, well-informed enough, and conscientious enough, that still leaves a LOT of people whose callous approach can put others at risk.


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> And I might get run over by a bus. There's nothing definite or predictable about anything right now. There are also a lot of poorly made serum test kits apparently. Then there's Germany testing their entire population using Made-In-Germany kits.
> 
> "Hiding and Waiting" is not a strategy in wars, horror movies, or Covid-19. It truly is time to be less bureaucratic and more entrepreneurial. It doesn't mean we have to be studid.


Chris, if it was ONLY a personal decision affecting oneself, then fine, live your life and extend or truncate it as you see fit. But the rules change when it comes to communicable diseases, because one's personal choices can easily become imposed on someone else NOT by their choice. When you're picking some nice apples at Loblaw's, do you want the people who rifled through that pile before you to *know* the true status of their immunity, or to simply *assume* it? Of course, you assume the stock boy who filled up that bin of apples did not sneeze on them, and if he did that he also *knew* the true state of his immunity.

Please do not join the line of doofus protesters, who have decided to adopt the credo "Give me liberty or give me death, and if it's death make sure it's a long drawn-out painful one that I can burden hospital staff and infect my family with, because I would rather have that than a nuisance". We need you _here_ more than in the cemetery.


----------



## Milkman

NOT POLITICALLY INTENDED.

Do you mean like this guy?


----------



## High/Deaf

mhammer said:


> Please do not join the line of doofus protesters, who have decided to adopt the credo "Give me liberty or give me death, and if it's death make sure it's a long drawn-out painful one that I can burden hospital staff and infect my family with". We need you _here_ more than in the cemetery.


I didn't see @allthumbs56 saying anything like that.

The tests will never be perfect. It will take a long time to get them even close to that. Not to mention we all respond differently to the tests and virus. We have different levels of immunity and other factors making universality nearly impossible. 

The virus isn't waiting for us to get our shit together, it's carrying on regardless. I'd rather start incorporating a test that is 95%, even 90% effective/accurate - _with the proviso that we know those limitations and respond accordingly. _

The question is "at what point do we find using a test that isn't 100% better than not using it?"


----------



## laristotle

.


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> Chris, if it was ONLY a personal decision affecting oneself, then fine, live your life and extend or truncate it as you see fit. But the rules change when it comes to communicable diseases, because one's personal choices can easily become imposed on someone else NOT by their choice. When you're picking some nice apples at Loblaw's, do you want the people who rifled through that pile before you to *know* the true status of their immunity, or to simply *assume* it? Of course, you assume the stock boy who filled up that bin of apples did not sneeze on them, and if he did that he also *knew* the true state of his immunity.
> 
> Please do not join the line of doofus protesters, who have decided to adopt the credo "Give me liberty or give me death, and if it's death make sure it's a long drawn-out painful one that I can burden hospital staff and infect my family with, because I would rather have that than a nuisance". We need you _here_ more than in the cemetery.


Is "death by covid 19" a long drawn-out painful one? From what I've seen it's fairly fast.....not like Cancer or starvation. As far as the stockboy sneezing on things goes, you can always wash them off.


----------



## mhammer

High/Deaf said:


> I didn't see @allthumbs56 saying anything like that.
> 
> The tests will never be perfect. It will take a long time to get them even close to that. The virus isn't waiting for us to get our shit together, it's carrying on regardless. I'd rather start incorporating a test that is 95%, even 90% effective/accurate - _with the proviso that we know those limitations and respond accordingly. _
> 
> The question is "at what point do we find using a test that isn't 100% better than not using it?"


Again, I repeat, the issue is not how accurate the tests are. They can be 100% accurate, and I sincerely hope they are (though we know there are false positives and false negatives). But the FACT, as it exists at the moment, is that we don't know how long that immunity, as detected by a _presumed_ 100% accurate test, might last for. We have a hard enough time testing _anyone_ at the moment, let alone testing a large enough group of the same people every other day for several months to see if that antibody presence is consistent and not fading with time over a troublingly short period, as happens with HIV.

So punk, how lucky do you feel?


----------



## _Azrael

boyscout said:


> The vast majority are grownups. There ARE smart and thoughtful and careful people outside of the world of bureaucrats.


Meh. People are stupid, and if you don’t beat them with a stick they’re not going to seriously inconvenience themselves. If there’s one thing this virus has proven it’s that there’s enough people that can’t conduct themselves like adults that someone else has to do the adulting for them.


----------



## Milkman

Electraglide said:


> Is "death by covid 19" a long drawn-out painful one? From what I've seen it's fairly fast.....not like Cancer or starvation. As far as the stockboy sneezing on things goes, you can always was them off.


It's not cancer but taking three days to die while gasping for breath is not my idea of a good time.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Milkman said:


> It's not cancer but taking three days to die while gasping for breath is not my idea of a good time.


I had serious pneumonia about ten years ago. It finally responded to the third and most expensive antibiotic but in the meantime I spent a few weeks flat on my back knowing I could easily die from this. Not fun. And not how I want to die. (I have a fantasy about a cement truck that I don't even see coming.)

But since I didn't die, it changed my life. Started putting more emphasis on the things *I* wanted to achieve in the time I have left. Probably a good thing, but not the easiest way to get there.


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> It's not cancer but taking three days to die while gasping for breath is not my idea of a good time.


If it comes down to it, I'd take the 3 days.


----------



## Electraglide

Doug Gifford said:


> I had serious pneumonia about ten years ago. It finally responded to the third and most expensive antibiotic but in the meantime I spent a few weeks flat on my back knowing I could easily die from this. Not fun. And not how I want to die. (I have a fantasy about a cement truck that I don't even see coming.)
> 
> But since I didn't die, it changed my life. Started putting more emphasis on the things *I* wanted to achieve in the time I have left. Probably a good thing, but not the easiest way to get there.


Mine is to be shot by a jealous husband while in bed with his 19 year old wife. I've done the Gasping for breath and wondering/wishing if I'm going to die a fair amount of times over the years. Jan. this year and Mar. of last year to name a couple. If that's how I go then so be it.....but I'd sooner have the 19 year old.


----------



## Ship of fools

The only problem with doing large scale tests is that by the time they actual are able to run them all you can have contracted Covid-19 or actually spread it. What they really do need is something where they can test on the spot and let you know right there and then. So testing large groups of people is frankly redundant and just can't provide true medical information needed.
There is far to much emphasize on folks doing the tests but can you imaging say 1 million doing the test today how long would the line up be for someone to actually run the test and honestly would it still be accurate by the time they do. We only have so many labs in this country to run them and they would suffer massive burn out.
I wonder what you think a test will actually do for you, we have seen a few folks who were tested yesterdays and then a few weeks later ended up positive from outside sources.
And Electraglide it can be a long process if you think 3 weeks or more is long and 3 days of hardly any breath no trust me its FUCKING PAINFUL with just one day you just wouldn't believe how much it hurts the chest and muscles in your rib area not getting enough air and the second day the rest of your body is trying to O2 itself and then starts getting numb but you feel the freakin pain and then the third day its like please can I have my gun now.


----------



## Milkman

Electraglide said:


> If it comes down to it, I'd take the 3 days.


Is none of the above an option?

If I had to choose between Covid and cancer, at least with cancer there's the possible option of ending things yourself. With covid-19, you have a few days of the terrifying ordeal of trying to grasp the next breath, knowing it's possibly a futile effort.

But, to each their own.


----------



## boyscout

_Azrael said:


> Meh. People are stupid, and if you don’t beat them with a stick they’re not going to seriously inconvenience themselves. If there’s one thing this virus has proven it’s that there’s enough people that can’t conduct themselves like adults that someone else has to do the adulting for them.


Of course there have been stories about people acting stupidly - there are always some. However the exceptions do not prove the rule, despite how very frequently they are employed to do so by certain groups.

"If there’s one thing this virus has proven it’s that" most people CAN conduct themselves like adults, and that proportion of the population swells to near-totality when it becomes apparent that the latest threat of whatever isn't just another ill-considered over-reaction by state actors and the threat really is serious. Are the remainder to be ignored? No, they're still a threat.

However do we make - or fail to make - policy about a test already thoughtfully reviewed and in use elsewhere because some of the covidiots might get the test and ignore doctors warnings about it, and does their behavior outweigh the benefits? Please, let's see proof of that postulation. Quickly... people are dying.


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> If I had to choose between Covid and cancer, at least with cancer there's the possible option of ending things yourself. With covid-19, you have a few days of the terrifying ordeal of trying to grasp the next breath, knowing it's possibly a futile effort.
> 
> But, to each their own.


As far as ending things, that's already set up. Each to their own.


----------



## tomee2

allthumbs56 said:


> And I might get run over by a bus. There's nothing definite or predictable about anything right now. There are also a lot of poorly made serum test kits apparently. Then there's Germany testing their entire population using Made-In-Germany kits.
> 
> "Hiding and Waiting" is not a strategy in wars, horror movies, or Covid-19. It truly is time to be less bureaucratic and more entrepreneurial. It doesn't mean we have to be studid.


So, for COVID19, or any transmissible virus, hiding and waiting is exactly what works. BUT everyone has to do it the same time, for 14 days or more. It lives and then dies in some, or it kills others, but if it doesn't get to a new host to infect it doesn't multiply and survive. Game over, we win. Hiding.


----------



## _Azrael

boyscout said:


> Of course there have been stories about people acting stupidly - there are always some. However the exceptions do not prove the rule, despite how very frequently they are employed to do so by certain groups.
> 
> "If there’s one thing this virus has proven it’s that" most people CAN conduct themselves like adults, and that proportion of the population swells to near-totality when it becomes apparent that the latest threat of whatever isn't just another ill-considered over-reaction by state actors and the threat really is serious. Are the remainder to be ignored? No, they're still a threat.
> 
> However do we make - or fail to make - policy about a test already thoughtfully reviewed and in use elsewhere because some of the covidiots might get the test and ignore doctors warnings about it, and does their behavior outweigh the benefits? Please, let's see proof of that postulation. Quickly... people are dying.


From a policy point of view, how would you administer it?

Is it like the porn industry where we have to be continually tested in order to work?

Who’s paying for it? Taxpayers?


----------



## mhammer

A lot of this could be easily answered - though maybe not to everyone's satisfaction - if we knew as much about this virus as we knew about others that have been identified years ago. And that's the challenge, from a policy perspective.

Let's say we knew for a *fact* that immunity lasts between 2-7 years for 95% of people. With that knowledge, we could easily set up regulations for employment, school attendance, administration of vaccines (when they arrive) and so on. Take a quick peek at the CDC page on the MMR (measles/mumps/rubella) vaccine and you'll see the scheduling and guidelines are all worked out ( MMR Vaccination | What You Should Know | Measles, Mumps, Rubella | CDC ). I'm confident we will _eventually_ have something that orderly and predictable for Covid-19, but we are very far from that just yet.


----------



## tomee2

Here's an analysis of why a test with false positives can be difficult to implement. I have no idea what's going in Canada with testing for the virus or antibodies, I just thought just I'd waste more time here and stir shit up....

As an example, we will test for antibodies with a test that is 100% successful in showing you have antibodies, if you have them.
For 100 people tested with antibodies, 100% success, 100 test positive. rejoice! we are saved!
But wait, there is a price for that 100% true positive... the test also gives a 10% false positive result.
Meaning out of 100 people tested with no antibodies, 10 will test positive.
This is the "90% is good enough" test.

For an example of a population of 1000 people, where:
10 have the disease, but have no antibodies yet but we don't need to test them either.
40 have had it and have antibodies
950 have not been exposed to it

For this example, using the above test;
Out of 950 people tested with no antibodies, 95 will test positive for antibodies
Out of 40 with antibodies, all will test positive
The people with the disease are not tested.

We now have 135 people testing positive for antibodies, an error of (135-40)/40*100= 237.5%

So, we test those 135 people again.

The 40 with antibodies will test positive, correctly.
The 95 false positives will now show 9.5, say 10, as positive.

Now we have 50 positive, error of (50-40)/40*100 = 25%
To get the errors down to acceptable levels, 2, or possibly 3 tests are needed.

The numbers get really crazy when the population is large and the people that have antibodies is very small - errors are in the many 100s of percent.

If we use as an example, 32 million people where:
0.02% have it (6,400 people)
0.5% have antibodies (160,000 people)

we have:
31,833,600 not exposed
the tests (which for a 1 hour test, take 2 weeks if 108,000 machines are used 24/7) produce
3,183,360 false positives

the result is a 1989.6% error rate. 

In this scenario, to get to a (pretty bad) 25% error rate, you need a test with a 0.126% false positive rate, 99.874% accurate.
What about a 99.9% accurate test? 20% error
What about a 99.99% accurate test? 2% error
What about a 99.999% accurate test? 0.2% error


Or, maybe you accept the 10% false positive test for what it is, but you progressively test the population of positives.
You have to run through 3 rounds of testing to get to a 2% error.
36,013,529 tests are done, to find 160,000 with antibodies, and 3,183 that test positive but have no antibodies.
Or 4 times to get to 0.2% error (318 false)

(Can you tell I made a spreadsheet?)

However, the test has its place. Maybe in schools, or hospitals and car homes, and you run the test 4 times to get to low enough self positives. 
But you still need multiple machines or massive parallel testing - testing 4000 people and getting results back in a week still needs 24 machines.


----------



## boyscout

_Azrael said:


> From a policy point of view, how would you administer it?


I'm gonna take a leap and suppose that you have all the resources needed to explore how other countries are already employing the antibody tests and what (likely-limited) policies they have deployed for using them.

I'm also gonna suppose that you know that lasting policy requires knowing more about the tests including which ones work most reliably, what useful results we can get, how to collate, distribute and use the data, etc., and that few would be attempting to write that now, especially not given the urgency of the current need.

I must have missed your reply to my request for proof of your postulation that people outside government are generally too stupid - that was your word, right? - and unable to understand cautions about antibody tests, and therefore the safest and best public policy is for government to be the "adult" and withhold approval of tests that are in use in other countries without apparent negative consequences.



_Azrael said:


> Is it like the porn industry where we have to be continually tested in order to work?


Hmm. Why does the porn industry pop to mind, just an opportunity to demean discussion? Virtually all industries are at some stage of contemplating how to move forward until vaccines wipe out most of the risk. The porn industry wouldn't be the first one that most people would think about. An antibody test would likely be a foremost consideration in their contemplation except that unlike other countries we don't have any and have no immediate clear prospect of getting any, so they can't plan with it in mind. What will they have to meet this dire need? Hmm. The comfort of "adult" supervision by bureaucrats, that'll be great for business.



_Azrael said:


> Who’s paying for it? Taxpayers?


At first, you bet. Widespread use under licenses with cautions, with producing companies paying for data collection and submission as they would during self-funded clinical trials - biggest clinical trials in history! - with Health Canada doing <gasp> real-time monitoring and evaluation of usage and results leading to cautions / suspensions / denials for some tests and full license approvals for others. When the dust has settled, important new tool(s) of proven tests in the arsenals of public health as well as privately-available / privately-paid tools with easy application bought by companies to reduce risk to their operations.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

boyscout said:


> with Health Canada doing <gasp> real-time monitoring and evaluation


----------



## Electraglide

_Azrael said:


> From a policy point of view, how would you administer it?
> 
> Is it like the porn industry where we have to be continually tested in order to work?
> 
> Who’s paying for it? Taxpayers?


Didn't know that the porn industry tested their employees.....for anything. As far as who's paying for it, of course the tax payers.....you figure us old folks have money for things like that.


----------



## _Azrael

boyscout said:


> I must have missed your reply to my request for proof of your postulation that people outside government are generally too stupid - that was your word, right? - and unable to understand cautions about antibody tests, and therefore the safest and best public policy is for government to be the "adult" and withhold approval of tests that are in use in other countries without apparent negative consequences.


I didn’t bother answering because I figured it was a red herring.


----------



## boyscout

_Azrael said:


> I didn’t bother answering because I figured it was a red herring.


It was not. You asserted it, looking forward to your proof of it.


----------



## _Azrael

boyscout said:


> It was not. You asserted it, looking forward to your proof of it.


Like I said, red herring.


----------



## boyscout

_Azrael said:


> Like I said, red herring.
> 
> Re-read your last post, then conjecture why a society of maxed out credit cards might not be the most appropriate people to make intelligent decisions about their future.


Yeah. Smelling more and more like evasion... talk about stinky fish. Bye!


----------



## _Azrael

boyscout said:


> Yeah. Smelling more and more like evasion... talk about stinky fish. Bye!


You’re asking me to prove that people are stupid...

...have you met other people?


----------



## laristotle

_Azrael said:


> why a society of maxed out credit cards might not be the most appropriate people to make intelligent decisions about their future


Like our current federal gov't?


----------



## _Azrael

laristotle said:


> Like our current federal gov't?


Touché.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Someone, and I don't know who, or on which thread, correctly made the observation that there will be other effects of this virus in as far as mental health services etc. Here is a story that should not have happened, but are the resources there to have prevented it?

COVID-19 patient discharged into cold after 10 days on a ventilator with no instructions


----------



## Milkman

I'm seeing more and more momentum behind those who are of the opinion that this situation has been blown out of all proportion and that we are completely over-reacting to it.

That, from educated people I interface with, mostly in the USA.

I'm not supporting that. I am urging caution and a slow roll out of things when and if it's safe (according to the scientific and medical communities) to do so.


----------



## allthumbs56

High/Deaf said:


> I didn't see @allthumbs56 saying anything like that.
> 
> The tests will never be perfect. It will take a long time to get them even close to that. Not to mention we all respond differently to the tests and virus. We have different levels of immunity and other factors making universality nearly impossible.
> 
> The virus isn't waiting for us to get our shit together, it's carrying on regardless. I'd rather start incorporating a test that is 95%, even 90% effective/accurate - _with the proviso that we know those limitations and respond accordingly. _
> 
> The question is "at what point do we find using a test that isn't 100% better than not using it?"


Thanks for the assist 

I was a little beside myself to respond directly. I don't know how many here are in this category, but Maggs and I are still working (both considered essential) and almost every day go out into the world and buy gas, meet customers and co-workers. Regardless of the precautions I take I feel like I'm playing Russian Roulette every time I go out the door. ANY test that would give me some assurance as to my own protection (or lack of) from Covid would be quite comforting. As for not being perfect - well neither my shingles vaccine or flu shots are perfect.

Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of staying home with a guaranteed income. I don't appreciate someone who does telling me that that is what I should be doing. I wish I did - as I'm sure millions of Canadians who are at work today also feel.

At some point governments are going to open things back up. This will happen long before even 10% of the population gets any kind of testing done. Risks will be taken. I'd like every chance to see those risks reduced as much as possible.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> Thanks for the assist
> 
> I was a little beside myself to respond directly. I don't know how many here are in this category, but Maggs and I are still working (both considered essential) and almost every day go out into the world and buy gas, meet customers and co-workers. Regardless of the precautions I take I feel like I'm playing Russian Roulette every time I go out the door. ANY test that would give me some assurance as to my own protection (or lack of) from Covid would be quite comforting. As for not being perfect - well neither my shingles vaccine or flu shots are perfect.
> 
> Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of staying home with a guaranteed income. I don't appreciate someone who does telling me that that is what I should be doing. I wish I did - as I'm sure millions of Canadians who are at work today also feel.
> 
> At some point governments are going to open things back up. This will happen long before even 10% of the population gets any kind of testing done. Risks will be taken. I'd like every chance to see those risks reduced as much as possible.


Yes.

I would feel so much better having been tested. One way or another.


----------



## boyscout

allthumbs56 said:


> Thanks for the assist
> 
> I was a little beside myself to respond directly. I don't know how many here are in this category, but Maggs and I are still working (both considered essential) and almost every day go out into the world and buy gas, meet customers and co-workers. Regardless of the precautions I take I feel like I'm playing Russian Roulette every time I go out the door. ANY test that would give me some assurance as to my own protection (or lack of) from Covid would be quite comforting. As for not being perfect - well neither my shingles vaccine or flu shots are perfect.
> 
> Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of staying home with a guaranteed income. I don't appreciate someone who does telling me that that is what I should be doing. I wish I did - as I'm sure millions of Canadians who are at work today also feel.
> 
> At some point governments are going to open things back up. This will happen long before even 10% of the population gets any kind of testing done. Risks will be taken. I'd like every chance to see those risks reduced as much as possible.


Well said but @_Azrael thinks you and your doctor are too "stupid" to be permitted to use the antibody test and that Health Canada bureaucrats are being the "adults" by refusing to release tests for use.

There are uncertainties in using the antibody tests - there are already negative reports arising from their use - but yours is one of the strong arguments against not deploying them at all and waiting until either other forms of tests or a vaccine are available everywhere. Not even politically-tainted negative reports (such as one in the New York Times a few days ago) have claimed or can claim significant wide-ranging risks from using the tests.

People are dying every day, other forms of testing are not enough available to properly inform us. We can't afford perfect now. Nobody can say that no good will come from the tests - not even close - and nobody can say that great harm will come from the tests. Let's use them, figure them out, and save some lives along the way.


----------



## Milkman

Interesting development.

Although automakers in the USA and Canada have been planning to resume partial production starting next Monday, May 4 and then ramp up further the following Monday, May 11, that is now doubtful.

I just received a letter indicating that some areas of Mexico that have many suppliers have been locked up for another month (end of May).

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

You can't build cars unless you have ALL the parts.


----------



## keto

There's a guy from VietNam on another forum, I asked about what they had done there to be successful. If you don't know, this next door neighbour to China posts as ZERO deaths due to covid19. Found his reply well thought out and interesting, so copying over here on the off chance someone might be interested. Subsequently someone linked a 5 minute video, some young iirc American girls were on one of the planes referenced, got quarantined in place at a hostel then a couple days later moved to an army barracks quarantine. Everything looks very civilized and well organized, they were allowed to stay together, fed decent chow, no real complaints. Everything below is his response, in case I miss quotation marks anywhere.

"We had the same first cases at the same time that others did, but after SARS, the government was quick to act. The first 16 cases were locked down, contact traces. done, and the borders shut with China. Like China Vietnam celebrates Lunar new year, so school were closed from the 17/Jan, but not reopened at the end of Lunar (TET) festival. By mid Feb, the country was cleared of all 16 cases. The graph I posted above zero active cases, but 16 recoveries at the start of February.

Then cases started coming in from Europe, and then the US, by flight, the first being a Vietnamese girl, but she contaminated the plane. About 1/3 foreigners and 2/3 returning Vietnamese throughout March. In hindsight the government would have acted tougher. but instead raised the quarantine restrictions. At first flight would require passengers to self quarantine if someone was sick on board, then government quarantine. Then everyone that flew in to self quarantine, then all flights had passengers government quarantine, until it hit capacity and they cancelled all flights by the 3rd week in March. Then we had some outbreaks, 2 hospitals, a bar and a some private cases. One of the hospitals messed up, and the cases spread to other places, but with the help of a different style of test kit for South Korea, officials hits the zone in the north and mass tested and tracked cases.

Throughout this time, schools stayed shut and people were asked to wear masks and restrict their daily travels, bars and restaurants shut early. The hard lock down didn't happen until the 01/04-15/04, but was extended a further week until today. Restaurant and many shops have been shut, but food sellers haven't.

I'm in the middle, if Vietnam, it's been quite relaxed here, I can't speak for the North and South, but people just got on with wearing masks and using hand sanitisers, and being aware as soon as asked, because it's not the first time, and masks are normal when travelling."


----------



## boyscout

Milkman said:


> You can't build cars unless you have ALL the parts.


If it comes up, I can do without one part: the loud yellow non-removable labels on the sun visors warning me perpetually that airbags can be deadly.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Someone, and I don't know who, or on which thread, correctly made the observation that there will be other effects of this virus in as far as mental health services etc. Here is a story that should not have happened, but are the resources there to have prevented it?
> 
> COVID-19 patient discharged into cold after 10 days on a ventilator with no instructions



Call your local LIN, the VON, or something similar.


----------



## colchar

Milkman said:


> I'm seeing more and more momentum behind those who are of the opinion that this situation has been blown out of all proportion and that we are completely over-reacting to it.



We don't know the real number of cases, which will be much higher than current numbers suggest. Based on that, the mortality rate will be much lower than current numbers suggest.

I, too, have been wondering why we reacted this way to this pandemic when we didn't to previous ones. 

I am not saying that we should just open everything up. Once the numbers indicate that we can, it should be done cautiously. But I do wonder why we shut everything down in the first place when we have never done that before, even for illnesses with similar, or slightly higher, mortality rates.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> Call your local LIN, the VON, or something similar.



Good idea. CMHA or CCAC may be others. They may not have an answer, but may know who does.


----------



## colchar

boyscout said:


> Well said but @_Azrael thinks you and your doctor are too "stupid" to be permitted to use the antibody test and that Health Canada bureaucrats are being the "adults" by refusing to release tests for use.


Yeah but some people are idiots.


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> You can't build cars unless you have ALL the parts.


Some manufacturers have been doing that for years


----------



## Wardo

Milkman said:


> I'm seeing more and more momentum behind those who are of the opinion that this situation has been blown out of all proportion and that we are completely over-reacting to it.
> .


I keep hearing that too but then look what happened in Italy and other places that got run over by it.


----------



## Jim Wellington

We aren`t allowed to bring politics into this, yet it is certainly a political issue. Politicians with political identity at the forefront of their decision making(identity politics) may not be all that rational or trustworthy. With that said, I`m not sure we can depend on the public to be rational, when they aren`t well informed, or can`t trust their information outlets. Or possibly we are dealing with bad info(purposely contradicting and confusing) in an attempt to control the narrative on behalf of the controlling bodies of that nation. I`m not going to pretend that I know the answer, as some here no doubt will, I`m just pondering how this relates to issuing a test for Covid. What I feel presently, is that if those in charge can`t find a way to move forward in this situation then they have failed us....sitting in your house for 18 months isn`t a solution, it`s a death roll for the western hemisphere socially and economically. Poverty was killing thousands daily around the world, long before anyone ever heard of Novel Covid. I`m behind testing and taking the risk that we will have to move forward. Once again, this is just a personal opinion, not advice., cause I`m just as ill informed as the rest of Canada.


----------



## boyscout

colchar said:


> Yeah but some people are idiots.


Some people are bad drivers. Ban cars.

Neither emerging results from use of the tests over weeks elsewhere, or other science-based evidence, assures that we will suffer more from using these tests than we will gain from using them. In fact, despite shortcomings it still looks as though the balance is tipped heavily to the benefits side.


----------



## Milkman

Wardo said:


> I keep hearing that too but then look what happened in Italy and other places that got run over by it.


That won't stop those with $$ blinders on from jumping the gun.

But with the global supply chain being what it is, it's almost like EVERYbody has to start up or the whole thing grinds to a halt.

I'm in the middle of such a tug of war right now.

Waiting for the sh$t to hit the fan.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> Some manufacturers have been doing that for years



True enough, and I should have added a caveat.

They CAN build cars with one or two missing components, but those then go to special areas for rework later. That happens because it's almost always cheaper to rework than to idle an entire line.

And it only happens with non-critical parts, and not with, let's say brake hoses.


----------



## mhammer

1) Testing for presence of antibodies is a good thing. The more it gets done, the better.
2) NOBODY, and I mean noooooooo-*body* (<_insert Mel Lastman voice here_>) knows precisely what the presence of antibodies *means*, apart from the fact that one recently managed to fight off the virus. Nobody _anywhere_ looked for the antibodies prior to this year. So, finding the presence of antibodies via a recent test is certainly good news for now, for the person who was tested. Is it good news for the rest of the year, or for now until the Leafs win the Stanley Cup again, and for the population as a whole? Nobody knows. It _might_ be, and that would be wonderful if true. But at this point it's a bit like "knowing" that you bought the winning 6/49 ticket. You _migh_t have, and I'd be happy for you if true. But you can't know until everything is over. And in this case, it isn't over by 8PM Wednesday.
3) People who have tested positive for antibodies, via a reliable and valid test, whether blood or saliva, should probably be allowed to resume their work on some limited basis, _providing they get retested regularly_. Easing up on the brake pedal would probably only be wise if we had hard evidence of the duration of immunity, and knew that immunity lasted a sufficiently useful period of time. What exactly that interval should be is something for the epidemiologists and virologists to work out. But I suspect that if we learn that presence of antibodies declines after 3 weeks, unless there is a vaccine, we ain't putting people back into regular circulation, without masks, disposable gloves, handwashing, and 2m spacing for some time to come, which will sideline a bunch of lines of work.
4) "Providing they get retested regularly" assumes greater availability of testing than currently exists. If testing becomes significantly more available, that it is possible to prioritize people as eligible for regular retesting, so they can be the canary in the coalmine and go back to work, great. The difficulty is that this is not a goal we are alone in trying to achieve. The production of tests is limited. Not just here but around the world. If we were not in competition with nations that have greater purchase power, life could be wonderful. But census-like testing and retesting is unlikely to occur until more populous nations than ours say "Nah, s'okay. We're good. You can have 'em." I _would_ say that we can produce our own, but you know darn well that whatever we were able to produce would likely be shared with (i.e., sold to) nations who have run out of alternative sources and are desperate paying customers.


----------



## Doug Gifford

boyscout said:


> Some people are bad drivers. Ban cars.


Should have done that 120 years ago.


----------



## _Azrael

boyscout said:


> Well said but @_Azrael thinks you and your doctor are too "stupid" to be permitted to use the antibody test and that Health Canada bureaucrats are being the "adults" by refusing to release tests for use.


I never said any of that. It’s all stuff you added trying to bait me into your argument.

Personally, I don’t give a shit about the test one way or the other, don’t know enough about it to argue authoritatively about it, and don’t care enough to debate it. 

My point is that any policy that fails to account for people being stupid will fail.


----------



## _Azrael

Here’s one that matters to me...

Motorcyclists defy 2-metre rule outside Old Strathcona Tim Hortons | CBC News

I ride a bike, that’s the Tim’s I typically hang out at, and now we’re worried that a bunch of idiots are going to fuck it up for the rest of us.

These guys have access to all the same information as the rest of us. Look at how they’re choosing to apply it.


----------



## keto

_Azrael said:


> Here’s one that matters to me...
> 
> Motorcyclists defy 2-metre rule outside Old Strathcona Tim Hortons | CBC News
> 
> I ride a bike, that’s the Tim’s I typically hang out at, and now we’re worried that a bunch of idiots are going to fuck it up for the rest of us.
> 
> These guys have access to all the same information as the rest of us. Look at how they’re choosing to apply it.



Hehe can't wait for the cops to do the 'nobody move you're all getting $1,000 tickets'. On the other hand, define 'hanging out' at a Tim's?


----------



## Milkman

keto said:


> Hehe can't wait for the cops to do the 'nobody move you're all getting $1,000 tickets'. On the other hand, define 'hanging out' at a Tim's?



They'll get at least two that won't start and another one or two that break down a block away.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> noooooooo-*body* (<_insert Mel Lastman voice here_>)


LOL.....I did exactly that....

This may tie in with what you wrote. I posted it in another thread also.

Recovered, almost: China's early patients unable to shed coronavirus

_"The new coronavirus is a new type of virus," said Guo Yanhong, a National Health Commission official. "For this disease, the unknowns are still greater than the knowns."_

Obviously, there is still much more to be learned in a very short time.


----------



## laristotle

boyscout said:


> Some people are bad drivers. Ban cars.


or just the female drivers.


----------



## Electraglide

Jim DaddyO said:


> Someone, and I don't know who, or on which thread, correctly made the observation that there will be other effects of this virus in as far as mental health services etc. Here is a story that should not have happened, but are the resources there to have prevented it?
> 
> COVID-19 patient discharged into cold after 10 days on a ventilator with no instructions


Just saying that the resources are not always there for other people like the homeless. But these are not street people and from the sounds of it they were given some instructions. "contact her family doctor to follow up on the hospital stay and her “mental health" is an important one. I wonder where her clothes went and why her husband didn't bring her clothes. They both tested positive and their Dr. wanted them to phone in.....duh. As far as checking her blood pressure goes, they couldn't figure that out....phone their dr. and if they were in isolation have someone bring them a monitor. Not that hard to operate. Same with having to pull his own stitches if he could reach them. The headline makes it sound like she came directly from ICU and put out the door. Not so. If nothing else you would figure the husband visits an ICU every week-end so presumably he should know a few people to call to ask questions to. He called his sister....who's a retired head nurse.....makes sense to me. Probably not the first time he called her about this. That's just my outlook on this.


----------



## _Azrael

keto said:


> Hehe can't wait for the cops to do the 'nobody move you're all getting $1,000 tickets'. On the other hand, define 'hanging out' at a Tim's?


Most of those guys are law abiding. I doubt they’d run unless someone starts a panic.

It was mentioned on a bike forum yesterday, I’m kind of surprised but not surprised to see it on CBC today.

Still, it’s difficult for me to get pissed off at “gov’t overreach” when the reasons are so plainly obvious.


----------



## High/Deaf

Milkman said:


> True enough, and I should have added a caveat.
> 
> They CAN build cars with one or two missing components, but those then go to special areas for rework later. That happens because it's almost always cheaper to rework than to idle an entire line.
> 
> And it only happens with non-critical parts, and not with, let's say brake hoses.


I wonder if the Big Three will ever hit the unheard-of lows of the oil business - negative pricing. 

Hey, if they want to pay me $2000 to take one away because it doesn't have break hoses or a steering wheel or whatever, I'll take it. I've got the room to store it and I can add the missing parts down the road, when they're available. 

I ain't camping outside of my local Metro Ford just on the off-chance, though.


----------



## keto

Electraglide said:


> Just saying that the resources are not always there for other people like the homeless. But these are not street people and from the sounds of it they were given some instructions. "contact her family doctor to follow up on the hospital stay and her “mental health" is an important one. I wonder where her clothes went and why her husband didn't bring her clothes. They both tested positive and their Dr. wanted them to phone in.....duh. As far as checking her blood pressure goes, they couldn't figure that out....phone their dr. and if they were in isolation have someone bring them a monitor. Not that hard to operate. Same with having to pull his own stitches if he could reach them. The headline makes it sound like she came directly from ICU and put out the door. Not so. If nothing else you would figure the husband visits an ICU every week-end so presumably he should know a few people to call to ask questions to. He called his sister....who's a retired head nurse.....makes sense to me. Probably not the first time he called her about this. That's just my outlook on this.



1000000000% agree, just whining. In this specific case.


----------



## Milkman

New Zealand's aim to be the first country to completely eliminate COVID-19 is working | CBC News


----------



## Milkman

High/Deaf said:


> I wonder if the Big Three will ever hit the unheard-of lows of the oil business - negative pricing.
> 
> Hey, if they want to pay me $2000 to take one away because it doesn't have break hoses or a steering wheel or whatever, I'll take it. I've got the room to store it and I can add the missing parts down the road, when they're available.
> 
> I ain't camping outside of my local Metro Ford just on the off-chance, though.


I know you're just being tongue in cheek, but no, they're responsible for quality and safety and have (believe it or not) very stringent controls and processes in place to make sure they don't get sued (too often).

No way would they stand behind a warranty with home mechanics installing standard safety features


----------



## High/Deaf

But, but, but .................. Bricklin? (and yes, I was and am jesting)

I had a boss who got stuck inside his because the battery went dead and there was no way to open the doors. Yikes!!!! He ended up crawling between the seats and going out the hatch - not easy, as he was a pretty big guy.


----------



## Electraglide

keto said:


> Hehe can't wait for the cops to do the 'nobody move you're all getting $1,000 tickets'. On the other hand, define 'hanging out' at a Tim's?


Hanging out at Tim's.....ride a few blocks from your house to tim's, get a double-bubble fatty latte and spend an hr. drinking it while admiring the color of each other's bikes then ride home again. Do that everyday, 6 days a week. (On the 7th you wash your bike).


----------



## tomee2

colchar said:


> We don't know the real number of cases, which will be much higher than current numbers suggest. Based on that, the mortality rate will be much lower than current numbers suggest.
> 
> I, too, have been wondering why we reacted this way to this pandemic when we didn't to previous ones.
> 
> I am not saying that we should just open everything up. Once the numbers indicate that we can, it should be done cautiously. But I do wonder why we shut everything down in the first place when we have never done that before, even for illnesses with similar, or slightly higher, mortality rates.


Perhaps it was a reaction to seeing 500 people a day die in Italy, for several weeks? Then 800 per day in NY. And they're still dying at about 500 day in NY. And Spain, UK, etc.. We (Canada) dodged a bullet.. Toronto or Vancouver could have easily become another NY, or London.

We dont know who has had it, but we also don't really know who has died from it. The CDC just reported that the earliest deaths in the US were weeks sooner, based on autopsies. Even now, most states report deaths only if they have a positive test. 
I dont think it was an over reaction given what was known about the virus at the time. With no mitigation cases were doubling in 2 days, and a few weeks later deaths followed. After closing things up for 1 month it appears "under control" but let up too much too soon and you have a NY situation again. 

The Vietnam story is very interesting. Do you think anyone in the US, or Canada, would put up with being hauled off to quarantine building for 2 weeks?


----------



## Dorian2

Don’t call me a hero


----------



## Milkman

tomee2 said:


> Perhaps it was a reaction to seeing 500 people a day die in Italy, for several weeks? Then 800 per day in NY. And they're still dying at about 500 day in NY. And Spain, UK, etc.. We (Canada) dodged a bullet.. Toronto or Vancouver could have easily become another NY, or London.
> 
> We dont know who has had it, but we also don't really know who has died from it. The CDC just reported that the earliest deaths in the US were weeks sooner, based on autopsies. Even now, most states report deaths only if they have a positive test.
> I dont think it was an over reaction given what was known about the virus at the time. With no mitigation cases were doubling in 2 days, and a few weeks later deaths followed. After closing things up for 1 month it appears "under control" but let up too much too soon and you have a NY situation again.
> 
> The Vietnam story is very interesting. Do you think anyone in the US, or Canada, would put up with being hauled off to quarantine building for 2 weeks?


They probably would NOT put up with it, but I remember suggesting almost exactly that in conversations with my family. If people came back to Canada in March and we had to basically rescue them because they blew this shit off and delayed their return until it was too late, yes I would have liked to have seen those folks escorted to a military quarantine in Trenton or wherever for two weeks.


----------



## Milkman

Dorian2 said:


> Don’t call me a hero



Pretty grim.

I had a conversation with a friend in Ohio who might benefit from reading this.


----------



## Electraglide

I see the Canadian gov't has put up something like $9 bil. for students....that, from the way it's written is on top of the CERB. And they're going to find some of them part time jobs.
Trudeau announces $9B in financial support for students; critics say pandemic aid must flow faster | CBC News
That's great, for the students. No body's offered me an extra $1250 a month.....on top of a CERB that I don't get. My expenses have gone up as much if not more than students. Yeah, I know they gave a shit load of money to the united way and other places but that's not the same as cash in hand and I sooner have the cash for when I need some potatoes and an onion than hear, "You have reached....All our operators are busy right now, please stay on the line.".


----------



## vadsy

Electraglide said:


> I see the Canadian gov't has put up something like $9 bil. for students....that, from the way it's written is on top of the CERB. And they're going to find some of them part time jobs.
> Trudeau announces $9B in financial support for students; critics say pandemic aid must flow faster | CBC News
> That's great, for the students. No body's offered me an extra $1250 a month.....on top of a CERB that I don't get. My expenses have gone up as much if not more than students. Yeah, I know they gave a shit load of money to the united way and other places but that's not the same as cash in hand and I sooner have the cash for when I need some potatoes and an onion than hear, "You have reached....All our operators are busy right now, please stay on the line.".


the government is just terrible. terrible


----------



## davetcan

vadsy said:


> the government is just terrible. terrible


careful, that's kinda political.


----------



## vadsy

davetcan said:


> careful, that's kinda political.


sorry I forgot to yell 'earmuffs'


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Dorian2 said:


> Don’t call me a hero



Wow....thanks for posting that.


----------



## _Azrael

Jim DaddyO said:


> Wow....thanks for posting that.


+1.

With the media focused on politics/economics I think they’re missing the human story.

And, despite the media’s various flaws I’d rather it be them filling up airspace than random shmucks on Facebook.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Wife is reading and looking around at news....not so good news is

20 to 40% of those who need to be intubated also need dialysis (that may be ICU patients and/or ventilated patients too. They are not being that precise with the writing in the stories that she is relaying to me. I asked, but she gets pretty much the same information from other sources when I ask.

More than 20 to 25% of ICU patients experience clotting issues also. An alarming number that is affecting installing IV's (and the aforementioned dialysis) as it clots that fast. It may or may not be something the virus does.

The good news is

They know that now and are watching for it.......and I hope this becomes more common knowledge in the medical profession. I don't think they have much time to be reading up on things right now.


----------



## Meerhoff

Let's Keep praying for the world


----------



## Milkman

Although masks are not all equal in their effectivity, it's becoming evident that they offer at least some protection.

Has anyone here researched masks that are being sold and where they can be purchased?

Alternatively, my wife is very handy with a sewing machine and we could make some, but if so, out of what?

I'm hoping for something reusable.

This is one site I found.

https://www.malph.org/sites/default/files/COVID-19 Face Mask Instructions Pattern.pdf


----------



## JBFairthorne

I’m not sure if there’s anything that offers SOME protection when it comes to masks. Either they block the virus or they don’t.


----------



## Milkman

JBFairthorne said:


> I’m not sure if there’s anything that offers SOME protection when it comes to masks. Either they block the virus or they don’t.



My reading tells me otherwise. They will at least partially block droplets expelled whether someone is sneezing, coughing, or just a moist talker.
I've never been one to wear masks, even though I work closely with Japanese people who swear by them. This is just an initial barrier, so yes, better than nothing.

Here's another pattern.

Face Mask Pattern - Free Sewing Pattern • Craft Passion


----------



## mhammer

JBFairthorne said:


> I’m not sure if there’s anything that offers SOME protection when it comes to masks. Either they block the virus or they don’t.


There isn't much in the world that is all-or-none, or entirely foolproof. When it comes to contagion, less is better than more.
There are two basic aspects of facial masks relevant: inhale of virus, and expelling of virus. Unless the seal at the perimeter of the mask is flawless, and the filtering aspects sublime, there is a risk of inhaling aerosolized virus. The likelihood of there being aerosolized virus to inadvertently inhale is reduced by trapping droplets produced when we talk, cough, sneeze, burp within the mask. The material used matters. Water-absorbent materials are generally least preferred (though something is better than nothing). In tests, material like hepa-filter vacuum-cleaner bags showed best results in terms of blocking the relevant particles. Citizen efforts to produce masks for hospital and other workers have used absorbent materials, but are designed to provide a slot for insertion of something like filter material.

I've been using a home-made mask, fabricated from a folded-over J-cloth with elastics stitched to the sides to hook over my ears. Not a flawless fit because of my beard, and maybe a little too absorbent. But I can wash it with antibacterial dish soap and dry it out before reuse.


----------



## Milkman

mhammer said:


> There isn't much in the world that is all-or-none, or entirely foolproof. When it comes to contagion, less is better than more.
> There are two basic aspects of facial masks relevant: inhale of virus, and expelling of virus. Unless the seal at the perimeter of the mask is flawless, and the filtering aspects sublime, there is a risk of inhaling aerosolized virus. The likelihood of there being aerosolized virus to inadvertently inhale is reduced by trapping droplets produced when we talk, cough, sneeze, burp within the mask. The material used matters. Water-absorbent materials are generally least preferred (though something is better than nothing). In tests, material like hepa-filter vacuum-cleaner bags showed best results in terms of blocking the relevant particles. Citizen efforts to produce masks for hospital and other workers have used absorbent materials, but are designed to provide a slot for insertion of something like filter material.
> 
> I've been using a home-made mask, fabricated from a folded-over J-cloth with elastics stitched to the sides to hook over my ears. Not a flawless fit because of my beard, and maybe a little too absorbent. But I can wash it with antibacterial dish soap and dry it out before reuse.


Thanks, that's what I was hoping to hear. I think Linda can come up with something with a pouch for a filter and which may fit better and be more comfortable than a J cloth, but after all, this isn't a fashion item.

I understand that the covid-19 particle size is approximately 0.6 microns (if memory serves) and that it can obviously pass through normal cotton or similar cloths. The number of threads (per inch....meter?) in the fabric matters.

It sometimes takes a fair bit to get through to me, but I'm inclined to cooperate with the medical and scientific community recommendations and they're saying masks help.

Really we're staying home as much as possible and generally avoiding close contact with ANY other hoomans.


----------



## tomee2

I think a person’s reaction to the virus depends on the dose? So a mask could reduce the amount of virus you breath in, and your body can fight it, vs breathing in a large droplet and it takes hold? 
Then there’s the reducing the spread of it part, which may be more beneficial in the overall scheme of things.


----------



## tomee2

There was an article about wearing nylon stocking material over a mask making ordinary masks approach n95 capabilities.
Found it
Adding A Nylon Stocking Layer Could Boost Protection From Cloth Masks, Study Finds

I love this part..
´Fernandez says the idea to try stockings came from a colleague at Northeastern who had previously studied how to make effective homemade masks in the early 1980s, in the wake of the 1979 Three Mile Island nuclear accident in Pennsylvania. "And what they found in the '80s was that if you just put a section of pantyhose over your face and stuffed anything in there, that would do a pretty good job of keeping the fallout particles out," she says.´


----------



## Milkman

If someone was about to take a shot at you and you had a choice to put a piece of 3/4 inch plywood in front of your chest, would you not do so?

No, plywood is not known to stop bullets, but depending on the distance and the gun, it might slow or deflect it enough to save your life.

No?

That's not to suggest we take extra risk just because we have a mask, but again, I'm just considering trying to reduce, not necessarily prevent the risk of infection.


----------



## boyscout

mhammer said:


> There isn't much in the world that is all-or-none, or entirely foolproof. When it comes to contagion, less is better than more.
> There are two basic aspects of facial masks relevant: inhale of virus, and expelling of virus. Unless the seal at the perimeter of the mask is flawless, and the filtering aspects sublime, there is a risk of inhaling aerosolized virus. The likelihood of there being aerosolized virus to inadvertently inhale is reduced by trapping droplets produced when we talk, cough, sneeze, burp within the mask. The material used matters. Water-absorbent materials are generally least preferred (though something is better than nothing). In tests, material like hepa-filter vacuum-cleaner bags showed best results in terms of blocking the relevant particles. Citizen efforts to produce masks for hospital and other workers have used absorbent materials, but are designed to provide a slot for insertion of something like filter material.
> 
> I've been using a home-made mask, fabricated from a folded-over J-cloth with elastics stitched to the sides to hook over my ears. Not a flawless fit because of my beard, and maybe a little too absorbent. But I can wash it with antibacterial dish soap and dry it out before reuse.


My wife is a skilled sewer (quilter) and has begun making masks from one of the more widely-supported patterns out there. Layers of different fabrics, aluminum strips sewn in so they can be pinched around the nose, comfortable stretchy straps; not simple things. After making one for one daughter and posting a picture on Instagram a few days ago she has requests for a half-dozen from other family members.

Not from me. The mask is probably effective at preventing the virus from coming THROUGH it, since it's pretty effective at preventing any air at coming through it too.  When I wear one a lot of my respiration in and out occurs under my eyes... a dream trip for the virus.

As I feared a couple of weeks ago, when mask supply for medical professionals began to improve and messaging changed to promote mask use, people are deploying many things that won't protect them very effectively and which have a potential to increase risks. 

Wear a mask of whatever you can, it may help if you don't think the mask makes you Darth Vader against the virus and you are JUST as careful as if you weren't wearing one, and if you're incredibly careful when removing it, cleaning it, and sanitizing hands after handling it. Some people won't be.


----------



## Dorian2

JBFairthorne said:


> I’m not sure if there’s anything that offers SOME protection when it comes to masks. Either they block the virus or they don’t.


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> If someone was about to take a shot at you and you had a choice to put a piece of 3/4 inch plywood in front of your chest, would you not do so?
> 
> No, plywood is not known to stop bullets, but depending on the distance and the gun, it might slow or deflect it enough to save your life.
> 
> No?
> 
> That's not to suggest we take extra risk just because we have a mask, but again, I'm just considering trying to reduce, not necessarily prevent the risk of infection.


Maggs aunt made up a couple masks with a pocket to put a coffee filter in. Haven't tried it yet. I can see that a coffee filter should be a good filter material but can you breathe through it?


----------



## mhammer

boyscout said:


> *Wear a mask of whatever you can, it may help if you don't think the mask makes you Darth Vader against the virus and you are JUST as careful as if you weren't wearing one, and if you're incredibly careful when removing it, cleaning it, and sanitizing hands after handling it.* Some people won't be.


This.


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Maggs aunt made up a couple masks with a pocket to put a coffee filter in. Haven't tried it yet. I can see that a coffee filter should be a good filter material but can you breathe through it?


If you don't need a ventilator to breathe, I think that's an improvement.


----------



## boyscout

JBFairthorne said:


> I’m not sure if there’s anything that offers SOME protection when it comes to masks. Either they block the virus or they don’t.


I think a lot of people would consider "some protection" to mean that a mask will reduce risk to some extent. You don't understand it like that?

Pretty much anything will do that IF worn carefully such that most respiration goes through the mask, IF bolstered with behavior including all of the caution one would employ if not wearing a mask, and IF handled with *extreme* caution in removing it and cleaning it and sanitizing hands after handling it. If a mask traps a few virus particles that's "some protection" isn't it?


----------



## tomee2

Dorian2 said:


>


Cool video, I like the differences shown. But it shows air motion though, not the big phlegm particles spewed out from good hacking cough. Lots of stuff a mask can and can't do. I think staying 6 feet apart and not touching my face is still needed. Problem with a mask is it almost makes you touch your face all time. I know with my sawdust mask I'm always moving it around. 
It's like another level of self awareness is needed with this for virus protection.


----------



## Milkman

tomee2 said:


> Cool video, I like the differences shown. But it shows air motion though, not the big phlegm particles spewed out from good hacking cough. Lots of stuff a mask can and can't do. I think staying 6 feet apart and not touching my face is still needed. Problem with a mask is it almost makes you touch your face all time. I know with my sawdust mask I'm always moving it around.
> It's like another level of self awareness is needed with this for virus protection.


I understand that. I think we all have to try to change some of our basic habits and that will take time and attention. Just to avoid touching your face (mask or not) takes continuous attention.

I'm really working on that and adjusting to masks will also take care and effort.


----------



## Electraglide

Kinda more like a rant than political.


Milkman said:


> Although masks are not all equal in their effectivity, it's becoming evident that they offer at least some protection.
> 
> Has anyone here researched masks that are being sold and where they can be purchased?
> 
> Alternatively, my wife is very handy with a sewing machine and we could make some, but if so, out of what?
> 
> I'm hoping for something reusable.
> 
> This is one site I found.
> 
> https://www.malph.org/sites/default/files/COVID-19 Face Mask Instructions Pattern.pdf


From what's been on the net for around here seems like some of the masks out there don't work. Don't seal right, don't fit right, cause a rash of sorts, are hard to breathe thru, etc. and that's from nurses. Not too sure if that covers all masks.
Alberta health-care workers say new masks don't seal, cause rashes and headaches | CBC News
Not too sure where you can buy them.....none in the drugstores and other places that might sell them are closed. There are supposed to be quite a few sites out there that have plans and patterns for sewing your own.


----------



## Milkman

Electraglide said:


> Kinda more like a rant than political.
> 
> From what's been on the net for around here seems like some of the masks out there don't work. Don't seal right, don't fit right, cause a rash of sorts, are hard to breathe thru, etc. and that's from nurses. Not too sure if that covers all masks.
> Alberta health-care workers say new masks don't seal, cause rashes and headaches | CBC News
> Not too sure where you can buy them.....none in the drugstores and other places that might sell them are closed. There are supposed to be quite a few sites out there that have plans and patterns for sewing your own.


We're going to make some. Nurses will have to wear masks much more often and for longer periods than I will so their experience is going to be different than someone wearing one for a few minutes here and there.

Yes, masks will take proper attention and new habits.

Yes some are more effective than others.

We're trying to gather as much reasonable information as we can and go from there


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> From what's been on the net for around here seems like some of the masks out there *don't work*. Don't seal right, don't fit right, cause a rash of sorts, are hard to breathe thru, etc. and that's from nurses. Not too sure if that covers all masks.
> Alberta health-care workers say new masks don't seal, cause rashes and headaches | CBC News
> Not too sure where you can buy them.....none in the drugstores and other places that might sell them are closed. There are supposed to be quite a few sites out there that have plans and patterns for sewing your own.


"Don't work" is a kind of misleading descriptor. So let's qualify. *IF* one has to wear a mask for prolonged periods, the way a hospital or long-term care home worker does, then yes, the comfort aspect starts to matter. Physical discomfort pretty much always impedes one's ability to concentrate on the task at hand. I certainly don't want anyone measuring out my dosage if they are battling a migraine. *ON* the other hand, if a mask that I wear to the grocery store for a half-hour doesn't fit me like a bespoke shirt or my favorite shoes, no big whoop. What matters is I'm not drooling on the oranges or shopping cart.
So, are some of the masks suboptimal for certain critical applications and contexts? Yep. Do they "work", in the sense of stopping little bits of spittle from being spread around? Yes.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Milkman said:


> My reading tells me otherwise. They will at least partially block droplets expelled whether someone is sneezing, coughing, or just a moist talker.
> I've never been one to wear masks, even though I work closely with Japanese people who swear by them. This is just an initial barrier, so yes, better than nothing.
> 
> Here's another pattern.
> 
> Face Mask Pattern - Free Sewing Pattern • Craft Passion


The wife has been pumping them out for the family and some friends for a few weeks now. She used to do a lot of sewing in her younger days. These are really nice with a nice sealed fit. They have an outer material and built in filter material with nose piece. Machine washable. Our granddaughter and her mother


----------



## Milkman

GuitarsCanada said:


> The wife has been pumping them out for the family and some friends for a few weeks now. She used to do a lot of sewing in her younger days. These are really nice with a nice sealed fit. They have an outer material and built in filter material with nose piece. Our granddaughter and her mother
> 
> View attachment 307010


I'd be happy to benefit from her experience. My wife is capable on a sewing machine as well (some quilting). She's looking at [patterns and materials now.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Milkman said:


> I'd be happy to benefit from her experience. My wife is capable on a sewing machine as well (some quilting). She's looking at [patterns and materials now.


I know Marnie got the pattern from online somewhere. I will check with her and post it here or where to get it. The hard part she found was the filtering material. But she put a call out to friends etc and got what she needed. The nose piece you can use several different things. We did order some online as well, still waiting for them. It's basically just a soft metal but rigid enough to stay formed.


----------



## High/Deaf

I find pictures like this heartbreaking. 










These people need the best PPE we can supply them. Until there's enough, we can do just fine with the temp homemade solutions many people are coming up with. 

Every little bit helps - as long as you don't think it's a cure-all and quit taking the other precautions as well.


----------



## Milkman

High/Deaf said:


> I find pictures like this heartbreaking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These people need the best PPE we can supply them. Until there's enough, we can do just fine with the temp homemade solutions many people are coming up with.
> 
> Every little bit helps - as long as you don't think it's a cure-all and quit taking the other precautions as well.


You're right. I think one of the worries is that people will think a mask is more protection than it is.

I have been one of those saying masks are not effective based on a limited level of understanding.

Yes, the virus is 0.6 microns or smaller and that will pass through most fabrics being used, but it is at least a basic barrier that can to some extent contain droplets.

It's not a haz mat suit.


----------



## allthumbs56

High/Deaf said:


> I find pictures like this heartbreaking.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These people need the best PPE we can supply them. Until there's enough, we can do just fine with the temp homemade solutions many people are coming up with.
> 
> Every little bit helps - as long as you don't think it's a cure-all and quit taking the other precautions as well.


Isn't there some kind of full-face helmet that would protect the whole head but not put so much discomfort on the face?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Milkman said:


> You're right. I think one of the worries is that people will think a mask is more protection than it is.
> 
> I have been one of those saying masks are not effective based on a limited level of understanding.
> 
> Yes, the virus is 0.6 microns or smaller and that will pass through most fabrics being used, but it is at least a basic barrier that can to some extent contain droplets.
> 
> It's not a haz mat suit.


Based on the ever changing information on this virus I don't think anything outside a full chemical and biological suite is 100% effective. But we sure as hell wear masks when we go into any kind of "public" place right now. So far, we have held off on pulling out the Yugoslavian army surplus gas masks, but I won't hesitate if the situation presents itself.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> Isn't there some kind of full-face helmet that would protect the whole head but not put so much discomfort on the face?



There are, but I think those are in even shorter supply than N95 masks.


----------



## High/Deaf

allthumbs56 said:


> Isn't there some kind of full-face helmet that would protect the whole head but not put so much discomfort on the face?


There's a few new things coming along - some aided by home-3D printer hobbyists. Good on 'em, they're looking for something to print anyways (must be like having a computer in the early days but very little software to run.....).

So I think we tend to go with what we know/trust until we have a bit of hard data on the new stuff. It takes a bit of time for that to happen, and time is the one thing we do not have enough of.


----------



## High/Deaf

GuitarsCanada said:


> Based on the ever changing information on this virus I don't think anything outside a full chemical and biological suite is 100% effective. But we sure as hell wear masks when we go into any kind of "public" place right now. So far, *we have held off on pulling out the Yugoslavian army surplus gas masks,* but I won't hesitate if the situation presents itself.


Pics or did not happen.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

allthumbs56 said:


> Isn't there some kind of full-face helmet that would protect the whole head but not put so much discomfort on the face?


You can get full face respirators. They are basically like the heavy duty sanding and painting type with dual filters but is contained within a full face shield. Similar to a firefighters mask without the air bottles. A decent one would be $100 and upwards


----------



## GuitarsCanada

High/Deaf said:


> Pics or did not happen.


Also comes with a radiation fallout suit


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> There are, but I think those are in even shorter supply than N95 masks.


I'm just thinking that hospital masks aren't designed for wearing hours on end. Surely we can do better.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> I'm just thinking that hospital masks aren't designed for wearing hours on end. Surely we can do better.



Well necessity being the mother of invention that's almost certain to happen. I hope so.

We're risking serious burn out with our healthcare (and other) professionals.


----------



## SaucyJack

6 straight days with no new cases and down to 55 active cases. There's a glimmer of hope for a softball season.


----------



## Milkman

GuitarsCanada said:


> Also comes with a radiation fallout suit


If this wasn't such a serious matter, I'd almost like to wear one a few times just to get a reaction.

In light of what has happened over the past couple of months the idea of seeing people wearing such a device is not completely out of the question anymore.


----------



## High/Deaf

GuitarsCanada said:


> Also comes with a radiation fallout suit


Love it. That has such a cool cold-war stank to it. I'd rock that!


----------



## Wardo

allthumbs56 said:


> ... Surely we can do better.


Holy water ?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Milkman said:


> If this wasn't such a serious matter, I'd almost like to wear one a few times just to get a reaction.
> 
> In light of what has happened over the past couple of months the idea of seeing people wearing such a device is not completely out of the question anymore.


You would be surprised at how fast these flew off the shelves a few months ago. You would be hard pressed to find any now. Especially non-issued like these. I think I paid $40.00 for 2 of them. Threw them in with the other survival gear. I think what you see out there now is people kind of going with the flow. They don't see anyone wearing a mask and they don't want to be the only one wearing one. Soon it will be the other way around.


----------



## Milkman

GuitarsCanada said:


> You would be surprised at how fast these flew off the shelves a few months ago. You would be hard pressed to find any now. Especially non-issued like these. I think I paid $40.00 for 2 of them. Threw them in with the other survival gear. I think what you see out there now is people kind of going with the flow. They don't see anyone wearing a mask and they don't want to be the only one wearing one. Soon it will be the other way around.


You may be right. I'm not a fashion conscious person, and definitely not "with it" when it comes to almost any social trends.

I'm not really worried about what others are wearing, driving or dancing to and I sure as HELL won't be jumping on the "Covid-19 ids a lie" bandwagon.


----------



## Lincoln

I think we're allowed to make moon-shine now, as long as we refer to it as "hand-sanitizer"


----------



## Milkman

Lincoln said:


> I think we're allowed to make moon-shine now, as long as we refer to it as "hand-sanitizer"


Liver sanitizer.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

My wife made us a couple of masks each. They are cotton linen. Hard to breath through, but it's only a half hour in the grocery store at the most. The nose piece she put in a piece of "garden" wire for tying up shrubs. It has a rubber sheath around it so it's pretty comfortable. I would rather even 10% more protection than none. Not sure the level cotton linen gives you, but she looked it up and it's fairly decent particularly with 2 layers.

I think one of these is what others have mentioned. They're $565 or so. Positive displacement air filtration. Pulls air in through a filter and blows it over your face. Your face is in a small high pressure area, and leaks, leak out, not in. The only type of resperator that is NIOSH approved for people with facial hair.


----------



## boyscout

Jim DaddyO said:


> I think one of these is what others have mentioned. They're $565 or so. Positive displacement air filtration. Pulls air in through a filter and blows it over your face. Your face is in a small high pressure area, and leaks, leak out, not in. The only type of resperator that is NIOSH approved for people with facial hair.


"Currently unavailable" at Amazon. Guess a lot of guys have taken up woodworking in self-isolation.

It's "98% effective" against DUST, so not nearly effective enough for full security in viral clouds, and it can probably suck in a viral cloud from three feet away.

<sigh> And I was thinking I'd look so cool in one of those at the grocery store.

https://www.amazon.ca/Trend-AIR-PRO-Airshield-Faceshield/dp/B002Q0Y5IU


----------



## boyscout

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1253136096990502917


----------



## laristotle

If a fart can get through underwear and jeans, how can a mask made of cloth save you from covid?


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> "Don't work" is a kind of misleading descriptor. So let's qualify. *IF* one has to wear a mask for prolonged periods, the way a hospital or long-term care home worker does, then yes, the comfort aspect starts to matter. Physical discomfort pretty much always impedes one's ability to concentrate on the task at hand. I certainly don't want anyone measuring out my dosage if they are battling a migraine. *ON* the other hand, if a mask that I wear to the grocery store for a half-hour doesn't fit me like a bespoke shirt or my favorite shoes, no big whoop. What matters is I'm not drooling on the oranges or shopping cart.
> So, are some of the masks suboptimal for certain critical applications and contexts? Yep. Do they "work", in the sense of stopping little bits of spittle from being spread around? Yes.


Don't work, such as when you breathe in dust etc. comes thru them and thru the gaps and when you breathe out your glasses.....if they are cold fog up. If it's raining or even a heavy fog and you breathe in you breathe in moisture. If you cough when you have some types on the force of your cough pushes the mask away from your face. If you're in the habit of drooling on the oranges or shopping cart then best see you dr. or dentist.
I've worn various kinds of masks and if they don't fit, seal right and are uncomfortable you start playing with them within 5 minutes of putting them on, especially if your glasses rub against the nose area. Even ones like these can be bad.


----------



## Electraglide

Jim DaddyO said:


> My wife made us a couple of masks each. They are cotton linen. Hard to breath through, but it's only a half hour in the grocery store at the most. The nose piece she put in a piece of "garden" wire for tying up shrubs. It has a rubber sheath around it so it's pretty comfortable. I would rather even 10% more protection than none. Not sure the level cotton linen gives you, but she looked it up and it's fairly decent particularly with 2 layers.
> 
> I think one of these is what others have mentioned. They're $565 or so. Positive displacement air filtration. Pulls air in through a filter and blows it over your face. Your face is in a small high pressure area, and leaks, leak out, not in. The only type of resperator that is NIOSH approved for people with facial hair.


Just a note on this mask....they work sort of but that depends on how much facial hair you have. If need be, for those of us who are fuzzy, these are better but can be a bitch in hot weather.


----------



## allthumbs56

Electraglide said:


> Just a note on this mask....they work sort of but that depends on how much facial hair you have. If need be, for those of us who are fuzzy, these are better but can be a bitch in hot weather.


Party City is gonna hafta update their sexy nurse halloween costumes


----------



## Electraglide

Lincoln said:


> I think we're allowed to make moon-shine now, as long as we refer to it as "hand-sanitizer"


$180 and your golden.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00BWUJKH...Format=grid&impressionTimestamp=1587670234938
You need a federal and I think a provincial permit to distill alcohol in Canada but these not for distilling alcohol tho it can be done. If you happen to say pour some hard apple cider in here and run it thru, or maybe some cheap scotch well "Oops.".


----------



## Electraglide

allthumbs56 said:


> Party City is gonna hafta update their sexy nurse halloween costumes


They have had some for a few years. The boots and gloves should be black tho.


----------



## tomee2

boyscout said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1253136096990502917


I heard a similar story with bananas... order 5 bananas and get 5 bunches.


----------



## boyscout

laristotle said:


> If a fart can get through underwear and jeans, how can a mask made of cloth save you from covid?


Nobody needs protection from my farts - they don't stink.


----------



## Milkman

Mine smell like Fabreeze.


----------



## allthumbs56

Electraglide said:


> They have had some for a few years. The boots and gloves should be black tho.


Hubba hubba!


----------



## allthumbs56

boyscout said:


> Nobody needs protection from my farts - they don't stink.


But are they "moistly"?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Some odd news on the virus.....

France testing whether nicotine could prevent coronavirus

Maybe I'm glad I didn't give them up yet.


----------



## mhammer

boyscout said:


> Nobody needs protection from my farts - they don't stink.


Wait, you can't *smell* them? Isn't that one of the symptoms?


----------



## Electraglide

Jim DaddyO said:


> Some odd news on the virus.....
> 
> France testing whether nicotine could prevent coronavirus
> 
> Maybe I'm glad I didn't give them up yet.


There goes my budget. Have they said anything about Tequilia?


----------



## tomee2

Jim DaddyO said:


> Some odd news on the virus.....
> 
> France testing whether nicotine could prevent coronavirus
> 
> Maybe I'm glad I didn't give them up yet.


That is bizarre and ironic. People die of lung failure but the smokers are under represented.


----------



## Guitar101

boyscout said:


> Nobody needs protection from my farts - they don't stink.


You should probably have your scent glands checked.


----------



## Guitar101

Milkman said:


> Mine smell like Fabreeze.


Maybe you should stop using dryer sheets for toilet paper.


----------



## mhammer

tomee2 said:


> That is bizarre and ironic. People die of lung failure but the smokers are under represented.


Tobacco contains nicotine, but there is a whole lot more to ingesting tobacco smoke than nicotine. Nicotine itself can be isolated and purified.

But yeah, ironic. Even Alanis Morisette would agree with that. Or maybe it would only be ironic if she _didn't_. 

This looks like one of those instances where smoking and non-smoking is a marker for something else, likely behavioural or occupational. When an estimated 35% of the population smokes, and you don't, you tend to stick out in other ways. What are those ways? Once again, an observational study leaves us scratching our heads.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Remdesivir tests have failed and are prematurely ended with no indicated positive results and unwanted side effects. Someone once said that the cure ought not to be worse than the disease. The same person who touted Remdesivir as a possible treatment.

'High hopes' drug for Covid-19 treatment failed in full trial


----------



## keto

I forgot to update, my mom got moved from rural MB down to Winnipeg, had her hip re-replaced, back to rural hospital, and then discharged just about a week ago. all without catching any hospital bugs or covid. Happy 77th today, mom.


----------



## tomee2

2 weeks after Easter and I’m seeing an uptick in new cases in Canada on the sites I look at. More cases or more testing maybe? I’m disappointed that the numbers keep going up, not down, even after 4 weeks of social distancing measures.

And New York announced study results that show perhaps 10x more people have it than tests show. Seems to me it’s not going to go away too soon then....


----------



## Jim DaddyO

In the "not surprising" category of news....

Canada says 1 million K95 masks from China unfit for coronavirus fight


----------



## boyscout

tomee2 said:


> 2 weeks after Easter and I’m seeing an uptick in new cases in Canada on the sites I look at. More cases or more testing maybe? I’m disappointed that the numbers keep going up, not down, even after 4 weeks of social distancing measures.
> 
> And New York announced study results that show perhaps 10x more people have it than tests show. Seems to me it’s not going to go away too soon then....


Yes, serious shortcomings in testing make it hard for us and even harder for officials to know what's happening with infections and where to focus attention and resources.

Watch the deaths instead, those numbers are reasonably reliable. Did you see the video at the link below? (Previously posted here by someone else.) Even though a couple of weeks old now, it still makes a lot of sense.

COVID-19 Daily Update — When Will the Lockdown End? – RheumInfo


----------



## colchar

tomee2 said:


> 2 weeks after Easter and I’m seeing an uptick in new cases in Canada on the sites I look at. More cases or more testing maybe? I’m disappointed that the numbers keep going up, not down, even after 4 weeks of social distancing measures.


Probably just tests working their way through the system, as well as widening the circle of who gets automatically tested.




> And New York announced study results that show perhaps 10x more people have it than tests show. Seems to me it’s not going to go away too soon then....



Yes, they think 2.7 million more.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> In the "not surprising" category of news....
> 
> Canada says 1 million K95 masks from China unfit for coronavirus fight



Good thing they're returning the favour for us sending them 16 tonnes of the stuff eh?


----------



## 1SweetRide

So, disinfectant manufacturers have had to warn people not to inject, ingest or inhale their products to combat the virus. What kind of world do we live in where we have to tell people NOT to do this?


----------



## vadsy

1SweetRide said:


> So, disinfectant manufacturers have had to warn people not to inject, ingest or inhale their products to combat the virus. What kind of world do we live in where we have to tell people NOT to do this?


They call it America


----------



## Electraglide

Guitar101 said:


> Maybe you should stop using dryer sheets for toilet paper.


Seems that using scented toilet paper can have an adverse affect on some people, especially ladies. Gives a new meaning to ring of fire.


----------



## Electraglide

tomee2 said:


> 2 weeks after Easter and I’m seeing an uptick in new cases in Canada on the sites I look at. More cases or more testing maybe? I’m disappointed that the numbers keep going up, not down, even after 4 weeks of social distancing measures.
> 
> And New York announced study results that show perhaps 10x more people have it than tests show. Seems to me it’s not going to go away too soon then....


From what I've seen, at least in Canada, they are doing more testing so it figures more cases will show up. The testing also shows that a lot of people don't have it.
A quick check shows Ab. has tested around 110,000+ people with only around 3700 testing positive


----------



## Electraglide

Jim DaddyO said:


> In the "not surprising" category of news....
> 
> Canada says 1 million K95 masks from China unfit for coronavirus fight


Failed to meet Canada's standards for front line people. I wonder how they fair in other countries.....same as some of the blood tests. I noticed 'politico' didn't mention anything about the states who probably have received the same masks. Maybe the ones that were hijacked. Doesn't say how they would be for just Joe Schmuck who only puts them on when he goes to the store and then probably tosses them. I'd say a lot better than what some people are wearing, like folded J Cloths.
Face masks from China intended for France 'hijacked' by US at the last minute


----------



## Electraglide

1SweetRide said:


> So, disinfectant manufacturers have had to warn people not to inject, ingest or inhale their products to combat the virus. What kind of world do we live in where we have to tell people NOT to do this?


Someone should inject trump.


----------



## 1SweetRide

Electraglide said:


> Someone should inject trump.


Evidence points to glue sniffing as an adolescent.


----------



## Electraglide

1SweetRide said:


> Evidence points to glue sniffing as an adolescent.


Probably this type of glue in grade 3.


----------



## Electraglide

Good thing there's no rats in Ab.
Opinions | The rats are coming. Here’s how we can keep them away.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Jim DaddyO

1SweetRide said:


> So, disinfectant manufacturers have had to warn people not to inject, ingest or inhale their products to combat the virus. What kind of world do we live in where we have to tell people NOT to do this?


The same one where we had to tell people not to eat Tide pods.


----------



## _Azrael

1SweetRide said:


> So, disinfectant manufacturers have had to warn people not to inject, ingest or inhale their products to combat the virus. What kind of world do we live in where we have to tell people NOT to do this?


----------



## 1SweetRide

Jim DaddyO said:


> The same one where we had to tell people not to eat Tide pods.


Maybe we should just let them eat tide pods and inject disinfectant. Might save future generations from the misery of their offspring.


----------



## bolero

I interrupt the memes & useless information to bring something of interest: check out this article:

Opinion | The Infection That’s Silently Killing Coronavirus Patients

seems the Covid pneumonia creeps in without anyone realizing it, and by the time you notice it, it's too late

detecting it earlier could hep with preventing hospital treatment


----------



## colchar

1SweetRide said:


> So, disinfectant manufacturers have had to warn people not to inject, ingest or inhale their products to combat the virus. What kind of world do we live in where we have to tell people NOT to do this?



One in which people have to be warned that their coffee is hot.

Earlier in all of this Trump was talking about some drug/chemical that allegedly showed promise. The drug/chemical is also used in aquarium cleaner so a couple in the US who were paranoid about contracting the virus bought some and drank it, thinking it would protect them from the virus. The husband died, the wife blames Trump and not their own fucking idiocy.

Arizona man dies, wife in critical condition after taking aquarium cleaner containing malaria drug for coronavirus

Woman blames Trump for husband’s death after he swallowed chemical linked to coronavirus ‘wonder’ drug


----------



## keto

bolero said:


> I interrupt the memes & useless information to bring something of interest: check out this article:
> 
> Opinion | The Infection That’s Silently Killing Coronavirus Patients
> 
> seems the Covid pneumonia creeps in without anyone realizing it, and by the time you notice it, it's too late
> 
> detecting it earlier could hep with preventing hospital treatment


a) NY Times, aint got time to clear cookies every time to get behind paywall, have not read it but
b) any time a covid article is titled "OPINION", I pretty much carry on my internetting elsewhere


----------



## keto

colchar said:


> One in which people have to be warned that their coffee is hot.
> 
> Earlier in all of this Trump was talking about some drug/chemical that allegedly showed promise. The drug/chemical is also used in aquarium cleaner so a couple in the US who were paranoid about contracting the virus bought some and drank it, thinking it would protect them from the virus. The husband died, the wife blames Trump and not their own fucking idiocy.
> 
> Arizona man dies, wife in critical condition after taking aquarium cleaner containing malaria drug for coronavirus
> 
> Woman blames Trump for husband’s death after he swallowed chemical linked to coronavirus ‘wonder’ drug


that shit's a month old now


----------



## colchar

bolero said:


> I interrupt the memes & useless information to bring something of interest: check out this article:
> 
> Opinion | The Infection That’s Silently Killing Coronavirus Patients
> 
> seems the Covid pneumonia creeps in without anyone realizing it, and by the time you notice it, it's too late
> 
> detecting it earlier could hep with preventing hospital treatment



Doctors are now saying this isn't just a respiratory disease because a lot of people are developing blood clots, and many are having strokes as a result.


----------



## colchar

keto said:


> that shit's a month old now



Which is why I said "earlier in all of this". I was just using it as an example of how moronically stupid some people are, in which case the "don't ingest X" warnings make more sense.


----------



## Wardo

They did a real good job designing this virus.


----------



## jb welder

keto said:


> b) any time a covid article is titled "OPINION", I pretty much carry on my internetting elsewhere


"By Richard Levitan

Dr. Levitan is an emergency doctor"
Maybe an opinion, but maybe more relevant than a lot of others.


----------



## laristotle

1SweetRide said:


> What kind of world do we live in where we have to tell people NOT to do this?





colchar said:


> One in which people have to be warned that their coffee is hot.


It's because of frivolous lawsuits over the years by idiots. Companies are just protecting themselves.
Remember the old lady that scalded herself when she dumped a McD's coffee in her crotch?


----------



## boyscout

keto said:


> a) NY Times, aint got time to clear cookies every time to get behind paywall, have not read it but
> b) any time a covid article is titled "OPINION", I pretty much carry on my internetting elsewhere


... and it's the NY Times, home to some of the best-written yellow journalism in the world.


----------



## jb welder

It's that boring down in the hole that people have to troll up in here now?


----------



## 1SweetRide

colchar said:


> One in which people have to be warned that their coffee is hot.
> 
> Earlier in all of this Trump was talking about some drug/chemical that allegedly showed promise. The drug/chemical is also used in aquarium cleaner so a couple in the US who were paranoid about contracting the virus bought some and drank it, thinking it would protect them from the virus. The husband died, the wife blames Trump and not their own fucking idiocy.
> 
> Arizona man dies, wife in critical condition after taking aquarium cleaner containing malaria drug for coronavirus
> 
> Woman blames Trump for husband’s death after he swallowed chemical linked to coronavirus ‘wonder’ drug


I hope they didn’t have kids.


----------



## oldjoat

probably not ... they used the poor man's vasectomy kit ... open the closest window , lay them on the sill, slam the window down.


----------



## keto

jb welder said:


> It's that boring down in the hole that people have to troll up in here now?


I get your point, and hoped my original post wasn't offside. I was just pointing out that it couldn't easily be read, I would have.


----------



## keto

keto said:


> I forgot to update, my mom got moved from rural MB down to Winnipeg, had her hip re-replaced, back to rural hospital, and then discharged just about a week ago. all without catching any hospital bugs or covid. Happy 77th today, mom.


Thanks to all the guys that liked that. Talked to her after supper, she sounds great, been on the phone and email all day with well wishers, and got outside on her feet for the first time today. She's a survivor, did well raising 3 of us with me the oldest from the time I was 12 as a single mom, remarried when I was mid teens. I'm a little misty, it's about now they usually make their annual trek west and stop here for a week, they go out to WA usually, from an hour north of Winnipeg in the beach country where they retired. Last year my step dad helped build a big 8x15 shed and foundation on a hard slope, I'da never been able to do it myself. He's a hard workin 80.


----------



## Kenmac

Just thought I'd add something here. Five years ago, Bill Gates did a TED Talk which was, now, somewhat prophetically called "The Next Outbreak, We're Not Ready?" It was about Ebola but the things he was talking about, for the most part, at that time weren't being paid attention. Here's a link to the original TED Talk:

The next outbreak? We're not ready

Here he is on Thursdays Late Show with Stephen Colbert talking about that as well as other things.
Part One:






Part Two:


----------



## tomee2

boyscout said:


> ... and it's the NY Times, home to some of the best-written yellow journalism in the world.


what does that mean, ´yellow journalism’ ?


----------



## keto

tomee2 said:


> what does that mean, ´yellow journalism’ ?


That, sir, is an old timey reporter term something akin to 'makin it up strictly for sales', tabloid stuff generally.



Kenmac said:


> Just thought I'd add something here. Five years ago, Bill Gates did a TED Ttalk which was, now, somewhat prophetically called "The Next Outbreak, We're Not Ready?" It was about Ebola but the things he was talking about, for the most part, at that time weren't being paid attention. Here's a link to the original TED Talk:
> 
> The next outbreak? We're not ready
> 
> Here he is on Thursdays Late Show with Stephen Colbert talking about that as well as other things.
> Part One:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Part Two:


As I posted in the other place, there is a very strange deep dark hole surrounding Mr. Gates and his efforts, that I slipped into for a bit this afternoon. Wow, I lost a not insubstantial piece of my remaining faith in humanity in a pretty short period of time. I'm tellin' ya, don't go there.


----------



## colchar

laristotle said:


> It's because of frivolous lawsuits over the years by idiots. Companies are just protecting themselves.
> Remember the old lady that scalded herself when she dumped a McD's coffee in her crotch?
> 
> View attachment 307216




Yeah she is the one who I was referring to.


----------



## colchar

1SweetRide said:


> I hope they didn’t have kids.



Unfortunately, you just _know_ they procreated.


----------



## colchar

tomee2 said:


> what does that mean, ´yellow journalism’ ?


Using headlines to grab attention and sales, despite having no research and little to no factual information in the stories. It is mostly an American term.


----------



## keto

keto said:


> That, sir, is an old timey reporter term something akin to 'makin it up strictly for sales', tabloid stuff generally.
> 
> 
> 
> As I posted in the other place, there is a very strange deep dark hole surrounding Mr. Gates and his efforts, that I slipped into for a bit this afternoon. Wow, I lost a not insubstantial piece of my remaining faith in humanity in a pretty short period of time. I'm tellin' ya, don't go there.


Ooooh, I hadn't watched Bill on Colbert when I posted that ^. Good for him for throwing in the bio-terrorism reminder/pointer, I was not expecting that. It won't go over well everywhere.


----------



## tomee2

colchar said:


> Using headlines to grab attention and sales, despite having no research and little to no factual information in the stories. It is mostly an American term.


So, click bait? Except with words. Got it.


----------



## colchar

I forgot to mention in my previous post when I said that doctors are now saying that this isn't just a respiratory illness, they are also noticing kidney problems (and perhaps other organs?) and that some who end up in the ICU need dialysis. 

So this thing is far more complicated than we are often led to believe.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> I forgot to mention in my previous post when I said that doctors are now saying that this isn't just a respiratory illness, they are also noticing kidney problems (and perhaps other organs?) and that some who end up in the ICU need dialysis.
> 
> So this thing is far more complicated than we are often led to believe.


I had mentioned the dialysis in a post somewhere. Additionally I had mentioned it seems to have a clotting effect on blood, which is hampering things like dialysis. Some patients need blood thinners. I have seen reports of them actually witnessing the blood clot as they insert the needle. So the enigma gets wrapped in a conundrum.


----------



## mhammer

keto said:


> Thanks to all the guys that liked that. Talked to her after supper, she sounds great, been on the phone and email all day with well wishers, and got outside on her feet for the first time today. She's a survivor, did well raising 3 of us with me the oldest from the time I was 12 as a single mom, remarried when I was mid teens. I'm a little misty, it's about now they usually make their annual trek west and stop here for a week, they go out to WA usually, from an hour north of Winnipeg in the beach country where they retired. Last year my step dad helped build a big 8x15 shed and foundation on a hard slope, I'da never been able to do it myself. He's a hard workin 80.


Everyone I know who's had a hip or knee replacement seems to get a personality transplant at no added cost. Amazing how much sunnier a person's outlook can be when they aren't constantly in discomfort.


----------



## keto

mhammer said:


> Everyone I know who's had a hip or knee replacement seems to get a personality transplant at no added cost. Amazing how much sunnier a person's outlook can be when they aren't constantly in discomfort.


Well, it's her 2nd same hip replacement as noted. My brother's out there more closely monitoring, said 1st hip wasn't that bad, but she suffered badly and never fully recovered from having her knee done, lost some pep over that one.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

WHO warns you may catch COVID-19 more than once - BNN Bloomberg


----------



## Frenchy99

Bad morning...

4 close personal friends just lost mother or aunt...



Its real bad down here...


----------



## colchar

GuitarsCanada said:


> WHO warns you may catch COVID-19 more than once - BNN Bloomberg


_
“There is currently no evidence that people who have recovered from COVID-19 and have antibodies are protected from a second infection,” the United Nations agency said in an April 24 statement._

Um, there is currently no evidence that someone who has recovered can get it again.

On a not unrelated note, Britain is starting trials to see if plasma from recovered patients can help treat the virus. Apparently it worked during SARS and some other recent outbreak.


----------



## mhammer

GuitarsCanada said:


> WHO warns you may catch COVID-19 more than once - BNN Bloomberg


That's what I've been saying. It's _possible_ that immunity might be a thing, and that it might last for a reasonable period. But for now, the "world's record" for immunity could not be any longer than 5 months, and in North America, not any longer than about 3 months, because that's how long people have had to get over it so far. So the recommendation to simply behave _as if _immunity simply did not exist is the most practical strategy to pursue for the next while. If restesting of individuals shows that, say, 8 months from now individuals are still immune, then that's good news. The WHO collates data from all over the world, and if they can't say that there is evidence of enduring immunity, then there isn't any reliable evidence of lasting immunity. I highly doubt any researcher or government (with a few very ugly exceptions) would obtain/grant permission to deliberately expose individuals who have recovered to a second bout, "just to see". All we have to rely on is the level of antibody production observed in retesting of the same individuals who live in the same masked-social-distanced world that we do.

The central problem is that immunity is not an all-or-none thing, and its strength and duration varies by virus/disease. Viruses, in turn, have a nasty habit of mutating and changing such that one's immune system doesn't necessarily acknowledge the presence of the now-slightly-different virus, and attack it. Bear in mind that if we were able to develop an immunity to influenza, _and_ influenza stayed the same, year after year, we wouldn't need to keep getting flu shots annually. So even if there turned out to be such a thing as an enduring immunity to Covid-19, is that an enduring immunity to ALL forms of it, or simply one strain/variety? It might turn out to be the best-case scenario, and a successful immune response to contracting is a long-lasting thing like immunity to chickenpox or mumps. But it is simply too early in the game for anyone anywhere to know that. I'm pleased the PM conveyed that in this morning's update. The sooner that understanding gets out there, the smarter and safer we'll all be.


----------



## Distortion

oldjoat said:


> probably not ... they used the poor man's vasectomy kit ... open the closest window , lay them on the sill, slam the window down.


 ouch !!!!!


----------



## Electraglide

oldjoat said:


> probably not ... they used the poor man's vasectomy kit ... open the closest window , lay them on the sill, slam the window down.


What are you doing with that knife Lorena?


----------



## laristotle

and for the DIY guys


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> _“There is currently no evidence that people who have recovered from COVID-19 and have antibodies are protected from a second infection,” _


From January 14th:

_“Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China,” the organization (WHO) had said._​
No evidence, perhaps, most likely, probably, somewhat ............................. the language of ass-coverage.


----------



## High/Deaf

colchar said:


> I forgot to mention in my previous post when I said that doctors are now saying that this isn't just a respiratory illness, they are also noticing kidney problems (and perhaps other organs?) and that some who end up in the ICU need dialysis.
> 
> So this thing is far more complicated than we are often led to believe.


Dr. Henry informed us of this a couple of weeks ago. 

(from April 16th....)


High/Deaf said:


> Dr Henry mentioned two things yesterday.
> 
> -- *This virus may attack other organs besides the lungs. The lungs are the obvious thing but there are some unusual symptoms in a few cases.*
> 
> -- They are now paying a lot of attention to the serious patients about 3 days after they first go into hospital. That seems to be when people either make a turn for the better or get very sick very quickly. If the latter, a lot of intervention is required very quickly.
> 
> She also said this is a particularly difficult virus to get a handle on, at least right now. They may never have a vaccine for it. We may have to rely on herd immunity (people hopefully having antibodies that protect them) which will take a very long time. We should all expect a very different, very unusual summer. May as well get used to that fact as soon as possible.
> 
> I like her, she doesn't pull any punches. A lot of what she says isn't comforting, but it needs to be said. Tomorrow they are releasing their modeling, pt II. No "Breaking News" but new information requires a re-jig of the previous model, which is at least a couple of weeks old.


----------



## Rozz

Not sure if this fits here but I didn't think it merited its own thread. Anyway, since everyone is pitching in to help each other out in these troubled times, where the hell are the Banks/credit card companies? I would think the minimum they could do would be waive interest charges. And this is the best they can do?:

These banks and companies have slashed credit card interest rates because of COVID-19

If I held credit card debt I would start a campaign or something on Facebook or wherever to shame these insatiable parasites into showing a little more compassion. Interest rates have been near zero for years, why do these guys still get to gouge people the way they do? Shylocks.


----------



## Guitar101

I did get an email today from my Gm Visa card outlining things that they are doing to help people through the tough times. Not sure how much their doing though.


----------



## mhammer

Rozz said:


> Not sure if this fits here but I didn't think it merited its own thread. Anyway, since everyone is pitching in to help each other out in these troubled times, where the hell are the Banks/credit card companies? I would think the minimum they could do would be waive interest charges. And this is the best they can do?:
> 
> These banks and companies have slashed credit card interest rates because of COVID-19
> 
> If I held credit card debt I would start a campaign or something on Facebook or wherever to shame these insatiable parasites into showing a little more compassion. Interest rates have been near zero for years, why do these guys still get to gouge people the way they do? Shylocks.


The PM was pressed about this by reporters and others several times over the past weeks, and his response was that "they were working with the banks". I realize that response didn't satisfy many at the time, but then the Government is in no position to legislate credit-card interest rates at the moment. The outcome seems to be a negotiated lowering by major banks, so the vague promise seems to have been kept.

Personally, I opt for a card with the highest possible interest rate, because I want disincentives for dawdling and use of the card. But my costs and needs are low, and my pension can be relied on, so I'm not going to ratchet up credit card debt the way that many family and even single persons are being obliged to, in the absence of a paycheque. So this is a good turn of events for regular folks. 

I guess the question is what's going to happen when people can eventually go back to work. They may have a paycheck again, but may also have a hefty credit-card tab to still pay off, that can't be liquidated quickly. The "generosity" of banks will likely have to linger for a while, and interest rates may possibly have to be brought back up again to where they were, in stages. Any attempt to simply flick a switch and go back to pre-pandemic rates in one move would likely not be very well-received...to put it mildly.

I don't have any particular sympathy for the big banks, but this was a bit of a strategic challenge for them. Grace periods for mortgages is one thing, because that's a fixed expenditure that will have to be paid off, and wouldn't be paid off quickly in any event. Credit-card companies, though, have pestered card-holders to up their limits. And as a debtload that can be added to and added to by the card-holders, the banks have to estimate how much customer debt they can handle, and for how long, before they bring regular rates back on-line. Again, no great sympathy for them, but I understand why they didn't just reflexively say "Sure, what the hell, we'll cut everybody some slack". 

There is also the rather unpleasant matter of what grace periods and lower rates might do to spending habits. After all, the objective is soften the blow of the pandemic, not encourage ever-greater reliance on credit-cards and grace-periods. restoration of the economy should not be resting on encouragement of those with little financial slack to get into more debt than they can handle.


----------



## bolero

keto said:


> a) NY Times, aint got time to clear cookies every time to get behind paywall, have not read it but
> b) any time a covid article is titled "OPINION", I pretty much carry on my internetting elsewhere


 weird I didn't get a paywall, read the whole article. here's a copy/paste:

"
I have been practicing emergency medicine for 30 years. In 1994 I invented an imaging system for teaching intubation, the procedure of inserting breathing tubes. This led me to perform research into this procedure, and subsequently teach airway procedure courses to physicians worldwide for the last two decades.

So at the end of March, as a crush of Covid-19 patients began overwhelming hospitals in New York City, I volunteered to spend 10 days at Bellevue, helping at the hospital where I trained. Over those days, I realized that we are not detecting the deadly pneumonia the virus causes early enough and that we could be doing more to keep patients off ventilators — and alive.

On the long drive to New York from my home in New Hampshire, I called my friend Nick Caputo, an emergency physician in the Bronx, who was already in the thick of it. I wanted to know what I was facing, how to stay safe and what his insights into airway management with this disease were. “Rich,” he said, “it’s like nothing I’ve ever seen before.”

He was right. Pneumonia caused by the coronavirus has had a stunning impact on the city’s hospital system. Normally an E.R. has a mix of patients with conditions ranging from the serious, such as heart attacks, strokes and traumatic injuries, to the non-life-threatening, such as minor lacerations, intoxication, orthopedic injuries and migraine headaches.

During my recent time at Bellevue, though, almost all the E.R. patients had Covid pneumonia. Within the first hour of my first shift I inserted breathing tubes into two patients.

Debatable: Agree to disagree, or disagree better? Broaden your perspective with sharp arguments on the most pressing issues of the week.
Even patients without respiratory complaints had Covid pneumonia. The patient stabbed in the shoulder, whom we X-rayed because we worried he had a collapsed lung, actually had Covid pneumonia. In patients on whom we did CT scans because they were injured in falls, we coincidentally found Covid pneumonia. Elderly patients who had passed out for unknown reasons and a number of diabetic patients were found to have it.


----------



## bolero

And here is what really surprised us: These patients did not report any sensation of breathing problems, even though their chest X-rays showed diffuse pneumonia and their oxygen was below normal. How could this be?

We are just beginning to recognize that Covid pneumonia initially causes a form of oxygen deprivation we call “silent hypoxia” — “silent” because of its insidious, hard-to-detect nature.

Pneumonia is an infection of the lungs in which the air sacs fill with fluid or pus. Normally, patients develop chest discomfort, pain with breathing and other breathing problems. But when Covid pneumonia first strikes, patients don’t feel short of breath, even as their oxygen levels fall. And by the time they do, they have alarmingly low oxygen levels and moderate-to-severe pneumonia (as seen on chest X-rays). Normal oxygen saturation for most persons at sea level is 94 to 100 percent; Covid pneumonia patients I saw had oxygen saturations as low as 50 percent.

To my amazement, most patients I saw said they had been sick for a week or so with fever, cough, upset stomach and fatigue, but they only became short of breath the day they came to the hospital. Their pneumonia had clearly been going on for days, but by the time they felt they had to go to the hospital, they were often already in critical condition.

In emergency departments we insert breathing tubes in critically ill patients for a variety of reasons. In my 30 years of practice, however, most patients requiring emergency intubation are in shock, have altered mental status or are grunting to breathe. Patients requiring intubation because of acute hypoxia are often unconscious or using every muscle they can to take a breath. They are in extreme duress. Covid pneumonia cases are very different.

A vast majority of Covid pneumonia patients I met had remarkably low oxygen saturations at triage — seemingly incompatible with life — but they were using their cellphones as we put them on monitors. Although breathing fast, they had relatively minimal apparent distress, despite dangerously low oxygen levels and terrible pneumonia on chest X-rays.


----------



## bolero

We are only just beginning to understand why this is so. The coronavirus attacks lung cells that make surfactant. This substance helps the air sacs in the lungs stay open between breaths and is critical to normal lung function. As the inflammation from Covid pneumonia starts, it causes the air sacs to collapse, and oxygen levels fall. Yet the lungs initially remain “compliant,” not yet stiff or heavy with fluid. This means patients can still expel carbon dioxide — and without a buildup of carbon dioxide, patients do not feel short of breath.

_We want to hear from doctors, nurses and health care workers around the world._

Patients compensate for the low oxygen in their blood by breathing faster and deeper — and this happens without their realizing it. This silent hypoxia, and the patient’s physiological response to it, causes even more inflammation and more air sacs to collapse, and the pneumonia worsens until oxygen levels plummet. In effect, patients are injuring their own lungs by breathing harder and harder. Twenty percent of Covid pneumonia patients then go on to a second and deadlier phase of lung injury. Fluid builds up and the lungs become stiff, carbon dioxide rises, and patients develop acute respiratory failure.

By the time patients have noticeable trouble breathing and present to the hospital with dangerously low oxygen levels, many will ultimately require a ventilator.

Silent hypoxia progressing rapidly to respiratory failure explains cases of Covid-19 patients dying suddenly after not feeling short of breath. (It appears that most Covid-19 patients experience relatively mild symptoms and get over the illness in a week or two without treatment.)


A major reason this pandemic is straining our health system is the alarming severity of lung injury patients have when they arrive in emergency rooms. Covid-19 overwhelmingly kills through the lungs. And because so many patients are not going to the hospital until their pneumonia is already well advanced, many wind up on ventilators, causing shortages of the machines. And once on ventilators, many die.

Avoiding the use of a ventilator is a huge win for both patient and the health care system. The resources needed for patients on ventilators are staggering. Vented patients require multiple sedatives so that they don’t buck the vent or accidentally remove their breathing tubes; they need intravenous and arterial lines, IV medicines and IV pumps. In addition to a tube in the trachea, they have tubes in their stomach and bladder. Teams of people are required to move each patient, turning them on their stomach and then their back, twice a day to improve lung function.


----------



## bolero

There is a way we could identify more patients who have Covid pneumonia sooner and treat them more effectively — and it would not require waiting for a coronavirus test at a hospital or doctor’s office. It requires detecting silent hypoxia early through a common medical device that can be purchased without a prescription at most pharmacies: a pulse oximeter.

Pulse oximetry is no more complicated than using a thermometer. These small devices turn on with one button and are placed on a fingertip. In a few seconds, two numbers are displayed: oxygen saturation and pulse rate. Pulse oximeters are extremely reliable in detecting oxygenation problems and elevated heart rates.

Pulse oximeters helped save the lives of two emergency physicians I know, alerting them early on to the need for treatment. When they noticed their oxygen levels declining, both went to the hospital and recovered (though one waited longer and required more treatment). Detection of hypoxia, early treatment and close monitoring apparently also worked for Boris Johnson, the British prime minister.

Widespread pulse oximetry screening for Covid pneumonia — whether people check themselves on home devices or go to clinics or doctors’ offices — could provide an early warning system for the kinds of breathing problems associated with Covid pneumonia.

People using the devices at home would want to consult with their doctors to reduce the number of people who come to the E.R. unnecessarily because they misinterpret their device. There also may be some patients who have unrecognized chronic lung problems and have borderline or slightly low oxygen saturations unrelated to Covid-19.

All patients who _have_ tested positive for the coronavirus should have pulse oximetry monitoring for two weeks, the period during which Covid pneumonia typically develops. All persons with cough, fatigue and fevers should also have pulse oximeter monitoring even if they have not had virus testing, or even if their swab test was negative, because those tests are only about 70 percent accurate. A vast majority of Americans who have been exposed to the virus don’t know it.

There are other things we can do as well to avoid immediately resorting to intubation and a ventilator. Patient positioning maneuvers (having patients lie on their stomach and sides) open up the lower and posterior lungs most affected in Covid pneumonia. Oxygenation and positioning helped patients breathe easier and seemed to prevent progression of the disease in many cases. In a preliminary study by Dr. Caputo, this strategy helped keep three out of four patients with advanced Covid pneumonia from needing a ventilator in the first 24 hours.

more than 40,600 people nationwide — more than 10,000 in New York State alone. Oximeters are not 100 percent accurate, and they are not a panacea. There will be deaths and bad outcomes that are not preventable. We don’t fully understand why certain patients get so sick, or why some go on to develop multi-organ failure. Many elderly people, already weak with chronic illness, and those with underlying lung disease do very poorly with Covid pneumonia, despite aggressive treatment.

But we can do better. Right now, many emergency rooms are either being crushed by this one disease or waiting for it to hit. We must direct resources to identifying and treating the initial phase of Covid pneumonia earlier by screening for silent hypoxia.

It’s time to get ahead of this virus instead of chasing it.

Richard Levitan, an emergency physician in Littleton, N.H., is president of Airway Cam Technologies, a company that teaches courses in intubation and airway management."


----------



## Electraglide

This seems to be what the Royal is doing. 
COVID-19 Update – How RBC is helping clients
Under the relief program scroll down and check what they say for credit cards.


----------



## bolero

damn that was a big article, hit the GC wordcount limit 4x trying to post. anyway hopefully it's useful to someone

the big takeaway is that using "pulse oximeter" can help detect the virus before symptoms appear.

not surprisingly, they are sold out everywhere!


----------



## Electraglide

keto said:


> a) NY Times, aint got time to clear cookies every time to get behind paywall, have not read it but
> b) any time a covid article is titled "OPINION", I pretty much carry on my internetting elsewhere


Probably 2/3rds of the links that are posted come up with something like that. I don't bother to read them or turn off my ad blocker.


----------



## Electraglide

allthumbs56 said:


> From January 14th:
> 
> _“Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China,” the organization (WHO) had said._​
> No evidence, perhaps, most likely, probably, somewhat ............................. the language of ass-coverage.


That was what, shortly after it was discovered and before it supposidly came to North America.


----------



## Electraglide

bolero said:


> weird I didn't get a paywall, read the whole article. here's a copy/paste:
> 
> "
> I have been practicing emergency medicine for 30 years. In 1994 I invented an imaging system for teaching intubation, the procedure of inserting breathing tubes. This led me to perform research into this procedure, and subsequently teach airway procedure courses to physicians worldwide for the last two decades.
> 
> So at the end of March, as a crush of Covid-19 patients began overwhelming hospitals in New York City, I volunteered to spend 10 days at Bellevue, helping at the hospital where I trained. Over those days, I realized that we are not detecting the deadly pneumonia the virus causes early enough and that we could be doing more to keep patients off ventilators — and alive.
> 
> On the long drive to New York from my home in New Hampshire, I called my friend Nick Caputo, an emergency physician in the Bronx, who was already in the thick of it. I wanted to know what I was facing, how to stay safe and what his insights into airway management with this disease were. “Rich,” he said, “it’s like nothing I’ve ever seen before.”
> 
> He was right. Pneumonia caused by the coronavirus has had a stunning impact on the city’s hospital system. Normally an E.R. has a mix of patients with conditions ranging from the serious, such as heart attacks, strokes and traumatic injuries, to the non-life-threatening, such as minor lacerations, intoxication, orthopedic injuries and migraine headaches.
> 
> During my recent time at Bellevue, though, almost all the E.R. patients had Covid pneumonia. Within the first hour of my first shift I inserted breathing tubes into two patients.
> 
> Debatable: Agree to disagree, or disagree better? Broaden your perspective with sharp arguments on the most pressing issues of the week.
> Even patients without respiratory complaints had Covid pneumonia. The patient stabbed in the shoulder, whom we X-rayed because we worried he had a collapsed lung, actually had Covid pneumonia. In patients on whom we did CT scans because they were injured in falls, we coincidentally found Covid pneumonia. Elderly patients who had passed out for unknown reasons and a number of diabetic patients were found to have it.


I wonder what the difference is between Covid pneumonia and regular, either viral or bacterial pneumonia. Sounds like all the patients had covid pneumonia.....even those without pneumonia.


----------



## Electraglide

bolero said:


> damn that was a big article, hit the GC wordcount limit 4x trying to post. anyway hopefully it's useful to someone
> 
> the big takeaway is that using "pulse oximeter" can help detect the virus before symptoms appear.
> 
> not surprisingly, they are sold out everywhere!


As far as I know the oximeters detect the amount of oxygen in your blood. That's it. Doesn't tell you if you have the virus, just that you possibly have one of the symptoms....hypoxia. Any one with CPOD sometimes has that. 
Should You Use a Simple Pulse Oximeter to Detect COVID-19 Symptoms?
Around here you can buy them a Shoppers and Walmart and probably other place. 
On a different note the grocery store I was in today had lots of boxes of 50 face masks.....not N95 style for $30.....didn't see any gloves tho but I didn't look.


----------



## mhammer

bolero said:


> damn that was a big article, hit the GC wordcount limit 4x trying to post. anyway hopefully it's useful to someone
> 
> the big takeaway is that using "pulse oximeter" can help detect the virus before symptoms appear.
> 
> not surprisingly, they are sold out everywhere!


Excellent and informative piece. Many thanks for posting and taking the time to do so. Oximeters may not be a panacea, but as Italy learned the hard way, overloading hospitals provides its own dangers.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Covid FX -- paging Don Cherry…


----------



## Rozz

mhammer said:


> The PM was pressed about this by reporters and others several times over the past weeks, and his response was that "they were working with the banks". I realize that response didn't satisfy many at the time, but then the Government is in no position to legislate credit-card interest rates at the moment. The outcome seems to be a negotiated lowering by major banks, so the vague promise seems to have been kept.


Not good enough imo



> Again, no great sympathy for them, but I understand why they didn't just reflexively say "Sure, what the hell, we'll cut everybody some slack".


I understand why too, because they want to continue to take advantage of people who need to use credit. There is no way rates should be so high when prime is so low. It is criminal.



> There is also the rather unpleasant matter of what grace periods and lower rates might do to spending habits. After all, the objective is soften the blow of the pandemic, not encourage ever-greater reliance on credit-cards and grace-periods. restoration of the economy should not be resting on encouragement of those with little financial slack to get into more debt than they can handle.


The goal wouldn't be restoration of the economy it would be debt relief for the people who need it at the expense of the bank's bottom line. I only see one loser in that scenario and they have been riding these ridiculously high rates for years. It is time they gave back imo.

As for encouraging those with little financial slack to get into more debt than they can handle:That is their modus operandi. Banks aren't responsible for the stewardship of their client's finances and their behaviour indicates it. As soon as a credit card owner exceeds their limit and pays it off, the bank/cc company raises their limit. Their public rationale is. "obviously they have proven they can handle it". Even if the same bank arranged debt consolidation financing, loc or a 2nd mortgage so the client could pay off the card and they know damn well they are just giving them more rope.

They give the poorest people the worst rates(because they are higher risk) and the richest people the best rates(even after they have filed Chapter 11). Seems to me, the entire system is rigged to get lower income people into debt and keep them there.


----------



## jb welder

keto said:


> I get your point, and hoped my original post wasn't offside. I was just pointing out that it couldn't easily be read, I would have.


Absolutely not directed at you Keto. Part of my 'sig' was crafted in part to exclude only one.

Your post made it clear that you did read NYT, at least on occasion. I just wanted to let you know that the article in question was worth your while.
On the topic of that article (oximeters), there's been a run on them because of it. They're no magic bullet, but the following article points out how they can help if you are taking the real long view that there may be many waves of this virus. I ordered one for myself, being lung impaired. 
It’s Honestly Fine if You Can’t Find a Pulse Oximeter to Buy


----------



## _Azrael

Rozz said:


> Not good enough imo
> 
> 
> 
> I understand why too, because they want to continue to take advantage of people who need to use credit. There is no way rates should be so high when prime is so low. It is criminal.
> 
> 
> 
> The goal wouldn't be restoration of the economy it would be debt relief for the people who need it at the expense of the bank's bottom line. I only see one loser in that scenario and they have been riding these ridiculously high rates for years. It is time they gave back imo.
> 
> As for encouraging those with little financial slack to get into more debt than they can handle:That is their modus operandi. Banks aren't responsible for the stewardship of their client's finances and their behaviour indicates it. As soon as a credit card owner exceeds their limit and pays it off, the bank/cc company raises their limit. Their public rationale is. "obviously they have proven they can handle it". Even if the same bank arranged debt consolidation financing, loc or a 2nd mortgage so the client could pay off the card and they know damn well they are just giving them more rope.
> 
> They give the poorest people the worst rates(because they are higher risk) and the richest people the best rates(even after they have filed Chapter 11). Seems to me, the entire system is rigged to get lower income people into debt and keep them there.


Alternatively, people could take personal responsibility for their finances and stop blaming the bank for their poor decisions.


----------



## jb welder

_Azrael said:


> Alternatively, people could take personal responsibility for their finances and stop blaming the bank for their poor decisions.


That too. But it doesn't have to be one or the other. Some people are irresponsible with their finances, and banks are gouging.


----------



## _Azrael

jb welder said:


> That too. But it doesn't have to be one or the other. Some people are irresponsible with their finances, and banks are gouging.


Personally, I’m all for some form of payment deferral system, particularly in the context of a government ordered shutdown, but people agreed to the terms of the loan and are responsible for their own debts.


----------



## jb welder

_Azrael said:


> Personally, I’m all for some form of payment deferral system and think it’s in everyone’s best interest, but people agreed to the terms of the loan and are responsible for their own debts.


Yes they did. But the guy who ran out of toilet paper and had to pay $5 a roll agreed to that too, and I didn't cut that seller any slack.


----------



## Rozz

_Azrael said:


> Alternatively, people could take personal responsibility for their finances and stop blaming the bank for their poor decisions.


Generally speaking, I agree, but we are talking about debt relief for people impacted by the virus, not really something that could be reasonably attributed to irresponsible money mgmt.

Edit besides that doesn't change the fact that the cc companies have not responded to the market.


----------



## keto

_Azrael said:


> Personally, I’m all for some form of payment deferral system, particularly in the context of a government ordered shutdown, but people agreed to the terms of the loan and are responsible for their own debts.



I work for a primarily ag lender, with also a big consumer portfolio of small tractors/acreage type stuff. That's exactly what we have on offer for the month to month guys. No fees no penalties, but there is carrying cost interest on the deferral. I've written up about 100 by now, only 1 customer - ironically, the guy with the smallest balance and payment, where his deferral probably would have cost $25-30.00 - has complained about our approach. The vast majority are grateful.

As to credit cards, I have no sympathy. I've written elsewhere, yes the banks make profit but they also divest a great portion of it out by way of dividends, that many people rely on for income, whether by direct share holdings or by mutual funds or pensions etc that hold shares. Yes, some wealthy benefit, but some (many!) not so wealthy too - where do you draw the line?


----------



## Electraglide

jb welder said:


> Absolutely not directed at you Keto. Part of my 'sig' was crafted in part to exclude only one.
> 
> Your post made it clear that you did read NYT, at least on occasion. I just wanted to let you know that the article in question was worth your while.
> On the topic of that article (oximeters), there's been a run on them because of it. They're no magic bullet, but the following article points out how they can help if you are taking the real long view that there may be many waves of this virus. I ordered one for myself, being lung impaired.
> It’s Honestly Fine if You Can’t Find a Pulse Oximeter to Buy


When I went on my third puffer and started checking my blood pressure I asked my Dr. about an oximeter. He said it's my own choice but all it would show is my oxygen level which changes depending on what I'm doing and which puffer I take, when. I thought about it and decided it's not worth it. Still don't see how it can tell you if you have the virus or not.


----------



## Wardo

It doesn’t tell you if you have the fuckin virus but if your SAT is through the floor and you’re still walking around then something is seriously wrong and you might have been dosed by the China bio-weapon. That’s what that article was getting at.


----------



## Electraglide

Wardo said:


> It doesn’t tell you if you have the fuckin virus but if your SAT is through the floor and you’re still walking around then something is seriously wrong and you might have been dosed by the China bio-weapon. That’s what that article was getting at.


So it just tells you your SPO2 level is low. Plenty of reasons for that including there being less oxygen in the air.


----------



## Wardo

Yeah, don’t worry about it; just the climate changin.


----------



## butterknucket

This is the longest anything made in China has ever lasted.


----------



## oldjoat

except the boxer revolution


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Ominous times 

'The end-game': Oil industry set to shut down in next chapter of crisis - BNN Bloomberg


----------



## butterknucket

John Fogerty And His Family Play Three Creedence Clearwater Revival Classics


----------



## _Azrael

GuitarsCanada said:


> Ominous times
> 
> 'The end-game': Oil industry set to shut down in next chapter of crisis - BNN Bloomberg


Yet more rosy than I expected.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

More interesting tidbits. 

COVID-19 can be spread by building ventilation, say Canadian researchers working on an HVAC fix


----------



## Electraglide

oldjoat said:


> except the boxer revolution


----------



## Electraglide

GuitarsCanada said:


> Ominous times
> 
> 'The end-game': Oil industry set to shut down in next chapter of crisis - BNN Bloomberg


I didn't see them mentioning anything about Canadian oil. Probably here the best place for storage will be leaving it in the ground for a while until people are out and driving around again....which will happen soon as the weather is getting better and things start opening up, both here and in the states.


----------



## Wardo

I like having the 401 all to myself though.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Electraglide said:


> I didn't see them mentioning anything about Canadian oil. Probably here the best place for storage will be leaving it in the ground for a while until people are out and driving around again....which will happen soon as the weather is getting better and things start opening up, both here and in the states.


I would assume it will greatly effect Alberta as the main product that comes out of there is bitumen, which is used in the refining process if memory serves. Bottom line is we don't need any oil right now and very possibly for a long while. The demand is just not there and once things do start moving again there will be a glut of stored crude to deal with.


----------



## boyscout

The U.S. Center for Disease Control has added six more symptoms to watch for as signs of a Covid-19 infection.

CDC Adds 6 New Coronavirus Symptoms


----------



## vadsy

boyscout said:


> The U.S. Center for Disease Control has added six more symptoms to watch for as signs of a Covid-19 infection.
> 
> CDC Adds 6 New Coronavirus Symptoms


all fixable by drinking gasoline and setting yourself on fire via the sun and a magnifying glass


----------



## mhammer

Wardo said:


> I like having the 401 all to myself though.


I haven't tried it, but I'll wager one could drive from Ottawa to Toronto in 3hrs and a bit. It's nice not having a thicket of drivers braiding the lanes in front of you.


----------



## Electraglide

GuitarsCanada said:


> I would assume it will greatly effect Alberta as the main product that comes out of there is bitumen, which is used in the refining process if memory serves. Bottom line is we don't need any oil right now and very possibly for a long while. The demand is just not there and once things do start moving again there will be a glut of stored crude to deal with.


Still a need for oil in Canada.....crude and refined. People are still driving, trucks are still delivering, planes are still flying. Farmers are still planting and growing crops. Life still goes on. 
Seems New Brunswick has reopened parks and beaches and for those of you who indulge, golf courses. 
After a week of zero cases, New Brunswick reopens parks and beaches
Other provinces are doing the same thing. Around here traffic seems to indicate that people are figuring that since gas prices are low, they have the time off and the kids are out of school then why not go for a drive or ride. Sask. has the Re-open Sask. Plan. Other provinces will still follow suit.
Oil and gas? sounds like Ab. will be doing more natural gas drilling and will also switch over to getting a handle on orphan wells. Seems that will create a few jobs here.
Alberta launching $1-billion program to remediate oil wells, create 5,300 jobs | Edmonton Journal


----------



## Electraglide

boyscout said:


> The U.S. Center for Disease Control has added six more symptoms to watch for as signs of a Covid-19 infection.
> 
> CDC Adds 6 New Coronavirus Symptoms


These?
• Chills

• Repeated shaking with chills

• Muscle pain

• Headache

• Sore throat

• New loss of taste or smell


----------



## vadsy

Electraglide said:


> These?
> • Chills
> 
> • Repeated shaking with chills
> 
> • Muscle pain
> 
> • Headache
> 
> • Sore throat
> 
> • New loss of taste or smell


thats a Saturday morning for me


----------



## bolero

Electraglide said:


> When I went on my third puffer and started checking my blood pressure I asked my Dr. about an oximeter. He said it's my own choice but all it would show is my oxygen level which changes depending on what I'm doing and which puffer I take, when. I thought about it and decided it's not worth it. Still don't see how it can tell you if you have the virus or not.


 not sure if you made it thru that wall of text I posted or not, but here's a clue:

"Many of the patients who had serious cases did not seem as visibly distressed as doctors would expect, even as their lungs were being compromised and their oxygen levels decimated."

they have been using them here in old age homes for the last month, to monitor people before they show symptoms


----------



## Electraglide

bolero said:


> not sure if you made it thru that wall of text I posted or not, but here's a clue:
> 
> "Many of the patients who had serious cases did not seem as visibly distressed as doctors would expect, even as their lungs were being compromised and their oxygen levels decimated."
> 
> they have been using them here in old age homes for the last month, to monitor people before they show symptoms


Last time I'll say it, all they monitor is the O2 level in your blood. To a certain extent that might be a symptom of the virus. It is for a lot of things. I believe they have been used in old age homes and other places for a lot longer than the last month or so to monitor O2 levels.....first time I recall one being used on me was back when it was discovered I had COPD. 6 or 7 years ago. You want to use one, go for it....I'll pass.


----------



## bolero

hello? that is the whole point. if you monitor your O2 level, it can give you a heads up

do what you will


----------



## High/Deaf

boyscout said:


> The U.S. Center for Disease Control has added six more symptoms to watch for as signs of a Covid-19 infection.
> 
> CDC Adds 6 New Coronavirus Symptoms


Is one of the symptoms having big red welts on your junk?


{Asking for a friend........}


----------



## allthumbs56

boyscout said:


> The U.S. Center for Disease Control has added six more symptoms to watch for as signs of a Covid-19 infection.
> 
> CDC Adds 6 New Coronavirus Symptoms


Geez - it's the perfect killer. It' like fighting the Borg.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Copied from my sister's FB page. She is married to a Dr and thought this was worth sharing....

Brad Walker


Let me introduce myself: I am a practicing ER doctor with a Bachelors degree in cell and molecular biology/genetics and a Masters degree in public health in addition to my doctorate.
COVID is not a flu. Not even a little. Here are reasons why:
1. It is a separate species. It is no more like influenza than you are like a hippo. DIFFERENT SPECIES.
2. It is an airborne virus. This means the tiny droplets can stay in the air for a full 2 hours. So if a person coughed in aisle 4 of Target 1.5 hours ago, they may be home now but their covid cloud is still hanging there just waiting for you to walk by and take a breath. Influenza is not an airborne virus. It is droplet spread- meaning someone has to directly crop dust you with their sneeze to get you sick. Covid is much more contagious.
3. Covid is more virulent. Virulence factor is a measure of how catchy something is. For example, the flu is like beer. It takes a bunch to get you drunk. Covid is more like tequila - A little goes a long way. You need to suck up a lot of flu particles to actually catch the flu; with covid, even a few particles is enough to infect you.
4. Covid has a longer incubation than the flu. When you catch the flu, you typically get sick in the next 1-2 days. This is awesome because it means you stay at home while contagious because you feel like a heap of fried garbage. Covid has a blissful 5-9 days of symptom free time during which you are well enough to head to the movies, gym or mar-a-lago while also being contagious enough to infect everyone you encounter.
5. Covid has a longer duration of illness than flu. With covid, you have a 5-9 days of blissful asymptomatic contagiousness. This then turns into about 1 week of cough and overall feeling like hell but still surviving. Week 2 is when things hit the fan and people end up unable to breathe and on a ventilator. Many stay on the vent for up to 15 days. 5 days incubating+7 kinda sick days + 15 days on a ventilator makes for 27 days of virus spreading illness, (assuming your don’t just die of massive asphyxiation and body-wide collapse from overwhelming infection somewhere in that last week).The flu has an average incubation of 1-2 days and sick time of 7 days for a total of 9 infectious days. In the world of deadly viruses, that 18 extra days might as well be a millennia.
6. Covid is more deadly. A LOT more deadly. The flu has about a 0.2% mortality rate, meaning 2 of every thousand people who get sick with flu will die. On the contrary, the death rate from covid is reportedly 2%, so 10 times more deadly than flu. Ten times more death seems like a lot more death to me. Whats more worrisome is that 2% is actually incorrect because it doesn’t kill kids so that skews the average. With covid, age is a major factor in survival. If we don’t include people under 30, the death rate for adults is on average 4.5%. 9 out of every 200 adults that get this will die from it. Do you know 200 adults? Do you think losing 9 of them is no big deal? Since mortality increases with age in covid, the risk gets worse as you get older so if we put 100 grannies in a room with covid, only 85 would make it out alive to make pies and tell great stories of the old days... and that just sucks.
I hope that helps to clarify why covid is in no way a flu, why you are in no way a hippo, and why staying home is the only way for non-essential people to do their part while I spend my days at work covered in a plastic poncho, sucking air through a stuffy respirator mask, leaving my scrubs in my driveway, showering the covid off at 4am when I get in, and thinking to myself “now do u still think it was just a flu?” as I risk my own life with my face 2 inches from their highly contagious, gasping mouth while I slide the plastic tube down their throat and start up the ventilator.


----------



## vadsy

Facebook


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Malls face catastrophic hit in Canada with unpaid rent surging - BNN Bloomberg


----------



## BlueRocker

High/Deaf said:


> Is one of the symptoms having big red welts on your junk?
> 
> 
> {Asking for a friend........}


I don't know. I think I'm starting to grow an antler though. I'm afraid to Google my symptom.


----------



## High/Deaf

BlueRocker said:


> I don't know. I think I'm starting to grow an antler though. I'm afraid to Google my symptom.


Maybe a horn? "The devil you say ............. "


----------



## mhammer

GuitarsCanada said:


> Malls face catastrophic hit in Canada with unpaid rent surging - BNN Bloomberg


Malls were facing a catastrophic hit already, as "anchor" stores disappear from the landscape, and property-management firms and owners have to figure out who is going to rent the space. At least businesses that are tanking due to the pandemic have unpaid rent that might _possibly_ be paid at some future date. When there's a big gaping hole where the Sears, Zellers, Canadian Tire, Bay, Woodwards, or Eatons used to be, that's rent that's _never_ going to be paid, until the owners invest big dollars to reconfigure the space to make it amenable to smaller retailers, and find those tenants.


----------



## Milkman

mhammer said:


> Malls were facing a catastrophic hit already, as "anchor" stores disappear from the landscape, and property-management firms and owners have to figure out who is going to rent the space. At least businesses that are tanking due to the pandemic have unpaid rent that might _possibly_ be paid at some future date. When there's a big gaping hole where the Sears, Zellers, Canadian Tire, Bay, Woodwards, or Eatons used to be, that's rent that's _never_ going to be paid, until the owners invest big dollars to reconfigure the space to make it amenable to smaller retailers, and find those tenants.


I can testify to this.

We lost both a Zellers (through the Target acquisition) and a Sears here in the past few years. The Sears was the main cornerstone of our main mall. World's Gym moved in to part of that space finally this spring, but not the whole footprint and surely they generate far less revenue.


----------



## Electraglide

High/Deaf said:


> Is one of the symptoms having big red welts on your junk?
> 
> 
> {Asking for a friend........}


Not playing James Bond in Casino Royale?


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> I can testify to this.
> 
> We lost both a Zellers (through the Target acquisition) and a Sears here in the past few years. The Sears was the main cornerstone of our main mall. World's Gym moved in to part of that space finally this spring, but not the whole footprint and surely they generate far less revenue.


Geez I miss Sears. Between it and Canadian Tire I could buy just about everything I needed.


----------



## vadsy

allthumbs56 said:


> Geez I miss Sears. Between it and Canadian Tire I could buy just about everything I needed.


I kinda liked going as a kid but as soon as time came for me to shop there as an adult the place seemed like it was run by used car salesmen.


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> Malls were facing a catastrophic hit already, as "anchor" stores disappear from the landscape, and property-management firms and owners have to figure out who is going to rent the space. At least businesses that are tanking due to the pandemic have unpaid rent that might _possibly_ be paid at some future date. When there's a big gaping hole where the Sears, Zellers, Canadian Tire, Bay, Woodwards, or Eatons used to be, that's rent that's _never_ going to be paid, until the owners invest big dollars to reconfigure the space to make it amenable to smaller retailers, and find those tenants.


The Malls around here are basically closed. Might be a drug store or a clinic open, maybe a Walmart; that's about it. There will probably be some places that won't open again. I can see lawyers making money off this. Most of them that had Sears, Zellers, Target, Woodwards Kmart and Eatons in them are getting rent from places that took over those spots. Target took over from Zellers who took over from Kmart kind of things. I know some of the Target spaces around here were empty for a while but I think that's because of the leases that Target had. 
@Milkman.......in some of the malls around here it seems like the gyms are about the only thing keeping the malls open and most seem to be busy, especially the 24/7 ones. They're closed around here at the moment but still get paid by their monthly and yearly membership. Not too sure if they will extend your membership or not.


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Geez I miss Sears. Between it and Canadian Tire I could buy just about everything I needed.


The last few decades, I think I probably spent more time walking through Sears, to get to the rest of the mall, than shopping_* in*_ Sears. But that's just me. There is a certain warm comfort provided by traditional department stores, when the dividing line between grocery stores and department stores was clearer. More than likely, some sociologist, cultural anthropologist or urbanist has penned a history of the department store. I'm assuming it was only a short hop from the older "general store" to the larger department store. One of my favourites was a store we used to shop at in Amherst, Nova Scotia - Margolian's. An ancient 2-storey brick building with worn wooden floorboards and tall ceilings. Ottawa used to have 4 or 5 department stores in the downtown core, but now has only the Bay...and we'll see how long that lasts for. I suppose in some respects, the very idea of an indoor mall signalled the eventual death of the department store. I mean, all that other space has to be filled with _something_, right? Some of it can be things the department store couldn't be bothered doing a good job of: shoe repair, ice cream, records, nail salons. But a lot of was in direct competition with what the department store was supposed to be king of: make-up, clothes, kitchenware, sportswear, shoes, lunch counter, etc. Between the direct competition 20 metres down the hall, and the online competition, it was only a matter of time.


----------



## Doug Gifford

When I was a kid, you shopped at local stores downtown. Then the malls and Simpson-Sears/Sears blew them away. Then the stand-alone big box stores blew *them* away. My current needs are pretty limited and I shop at the local stores downtown as much as I can. Local bakery, local brewery, local music store. Stuck with box stores (Home Hardware, Cdn Tire, Metro, No Frills) for some things. I buy my clothes, when possible, at the Salvation Army. I don't go browsing, completely don't understand shopping for shopping's sake.


----------



## laristotle

Doug Gifford said:


> completely don't understand shopping for shopping's sake


Neither do I. However, I have a few friends and acquaintances that 'need' to upgrade/redo the home (paint, furniture, electronics, appliances, bbq's etc) every five years or so. I've never had to buy a bbq, tv, computer or a lawnmower my entire life.


----------



## keto

vadsy said:


> I kinda liked going as a kid but as soon as time came for me to shop there as an adult the place seemed like it was run by used car salesmen.


My dad worked at Sears, from mid-60's to maybe '75-6, as a department manager/did some personnel stuff. I got to spend lots of time around the big store at Polo Park in Winnipeg, with my brother, wandering around while waiting for dad to finish up 'whatever'. Can confirm the used car salesman personnel even back then. And, my dad went on to.......sell cars, for a few years in the 90's.


----------



## keto

Tyson Foods chairman warns 'food supply chain is breaking' as coronavirus forces plant closures

Called that one very early, when they were crowing about our bullet proof supply chain.


----------



## tomee2

Electraglide said:


> I didn't see them mentioning anything about Canadian oil. Probably here the best place for storage will be leaving it in the ground for a while until people are out and driving around again....which will happen soon as the weather is getting better and things start opening up, both here and in the states.


We could always just pour it back into the sand it came from??? Last week we could've been paid $35 per barrel to pour into "storage" ... I joke of course...


----------



## Electraglide

tomee2 said:


> We could always just pour it back into the sand it came from??? Last week we could've been paid $35 per barrel to pour into "storage" ... I joke of course...


Well, the stuff in the pipeline will end up where ever it's going and then storage is their problem. The refineries here will still keep going.....maybe at a slower pace but it's a bitch to start things up when something has been shut down for a week, let alone a couple of months. Same with starting all that big equipment when it's been down for a long time. Pouring it back into the sand would keep the clean up guys busy.....major oil spills there. I know, how about if Irving Oil buys Canadian.....price is cheap enough. That would keep the guys in Ab., Sask and Man. working and happy. Start up the East Energy Pipeline too. (Not joking)


----------



## bolero

this guy, Dr. Kevin Katz, is smart. He should replace Thersaa Tam IMO

Why isn't Canada testing everyone for coronavirus? | CBC News

excerpt:

"Two months ago, Dr. Kevin Katz had an uneasy feeling about what might be headed his way.

He is an infectious disease specialist who manages the testing laboratories for several Toronto hospitals, including North York General, Sunnybrook and Michael Garron.

"As soon as I thought this was going in the direction of a pandemic, I had concerns about the supply chain," he said. The foreboding was based on more than a decade of pandemic planning.

In the first week of February, he began quietly stocking up on reagents. Weeks later, he ordered more, plus materials needed to extract the virus's genetic material and additional testing equipment.

"We were pretty aggressive. We were ordering and asking to take delivery the next day. We wanted it all physically delivered so we have pallets sort of strewn around the lab," he said. "

We need proactive, forward thinking people like him in positions of authority. 

Not passive muppets


----------



## colchar

keto said:


> Tyson Foods chairman warns 'food supply chain is breaking' as coronavirus forces plant closures
> 
> Called that one very early, when they were crowing about our bullet proof supply chain.



That is in the US though.


----------



## colchar

bolero said:


> this guy, Dr. Kevin Katz, is smart. He should replace Thersaa Tam IMO
> 
> Why isn't Canada testing everyone for coronavirus? | CBC News
> 
> excerpt:
> 
> "Two months ago, Dr. Kevin Katz had an uneasy feeling about what might be headed his way.
> 
> He is an infectious disease specialist who manages the testing laboratories for several Toronto hospitals, including North York General, Sunnybrook and Michael Garron.
> 
> "As soon as I thought this was going in the direction of a pandemic, I had concerns about the supply chain," he said. The foreboding was based on more than a decade of pandemic planning.
> 
> In the first week of February, he began quietly stocking up on reagents. Weeks later, he ordered more, plus materials needed to extract the virus's genetic material and additional testing equipment.
> 
> "We were pretty aggressive. We were ordering and asking to take delivery the next day. We wanted it all physically delivered so we have pallets sort of strewn around the lab," he said. "
> 
> We need proactive, forward thinking people like him in positions of authority.
> 
> Not passive muppets



Are there enough available to test everyone? 

I still want an antibody test but Health Canada are fucking idiots.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> Are there enough available to test everyone?
> 
> I still want an antibody test but Health Canada are fucking idiots.


Sounds like he's been hoarding. 
"We were pretty aggressive. We were ordering and asking to take delivery the next day. We wanted it all physically delivered so we have pallets sort of strewn around the lab," he said. " And this when there wasn't enough of the stuff around.


----------



## davetcan

Were they crowing before or after the rail blockades?



keto said:


> Tyson Foods chairman warns 'food supply chain is breaking' as coronavirus forces plant closures
> 
> Called that one very early, when they were crowing about our bullet proof supply chain.


----------



## laristotle

Monopoly Suspends Rent On All Properties And Bumps Up Passing Go To $1200

PAWTUCKET, RI—_Hasbro has announced a new version of Monopoly will be released where all rent will be suspended until further notice. In addition, the board game will now give players $1200 for passing the Go space. All railroads will be closed, though essential services such as the utilities and the income taxes will still be open.

"These new rules will stimulate Monopoly's economy," said a Hasbro spokesperson. "Why just give out $200 when we can increase that number to $1200 and make everybody a winner?"

Unfortunately, after the designers increased the game's income, players simply paid a lot more for the few things they could still spend their money on, driving up prices. The cost of Free Parking, for instance, experienced massive inflation and now costs $1200 to park on. Get Out of Jail Free cards are also $1200 now. Hasbro says they may be forced to increase income to $5000 to compensate.

The quarantine edition will also just send you to jail constantly whenever you try to move around to different spaces on the board to make sure you don't spread COVID-19._


----------



## Milkman

This is a clip from the Ontario.ca page.

*Supply chains*

Businesses that supply other essential businesses or essential services within Ontario, or that supply businesses or services that have been declared essential in a jurisdiction outside of Ontario, with the support, products, supplies, systems, or services, including processing, packaging, warehousing, distribution, delivery, and maintenance necessary to operate.

I work in an office where we conduct the sales and engineering activities for several plants in North America. Those plants make auto parts for the car makers.

I'm trying to interpret the definition of "essential" in the context of supply chain. We are not a factory, but an argument could be made that if we do not operate, our plants cannot. There are daily interfaces and consultations between engineering and production and also between accounting and sales.

Am I stretching the definition to my own purposes?

We don't want to break the law, but there are seven people who work in our fairly spacious office. All of us have been in isolation since march 16 and all are well.

We are considering a resumption plan potentially for next Monday.


----------



## Guitar101

Milkman said:


> This is a clip from the Ontario.ca page.
> 
> *Supply chains*
> 
> Businesses that supply other essential businesses or essential services within Ontario, or that supply businesses or services that have been declared essential in a jurisdiction outside of Ontario, with the support, products, supplies, systems, or services, including processing, packaging, warehousing, distribution, delivery, and maintenance necessary to operate.
> 
> I work in an office where we conduct the sales and engineering activities for several plants in North America. Those plants make auto parts for the car makers.
> 
> I'm trying to interpret the definition of "essential" in the context of supply chain. We are not a factory, but an argument could be made that if we do not operate, our plants cannot. There are daily interfaces and consultations between engineering and production and also between accounting and sales.
> 
> Am I stretching the definition to my own purposes?
> 
> We don't want to break the law, but there are seven people who work in our fairly spacious office. All of us have been in isolation since march 16 and all are well.
> 
> We are considering a resumption plan potentially for next Monday.


I would say that if your plants are not running, you are not essential and "yes" you are stretching the definition to your own purposes. Remember, you are non value added. Ask yourself "if I retired today, would the company replace me?"
Now, get back to work.


----------



## Milkman

Guitar101 said:


> I would say that if your plants are not running, you are not essential and "yes" you are stretching the definition to your own purposes. Remember, you are non value added. Ask yourself "if you retired today, would the company replace you?"
> Now, get back to work.


Our plants will resume production to an extent on Monday, same as we are considering.

And nobody is indispensable. Anyone can be replaced. A more relevant question would be, if our entire office retired today would the company need to replace us all? The answer is of course, yes.

If we do not establish pricing, compete and win new model business, the plants shut down. If we do not collaborate with engineering teams at our customers, our plants shut down.

Actually our plants have been obliged to run skeleton crews to support the service parts business as that was deemed essential right off the bat and we have worked in their support from home.


----------



## mhammer

The "essential" designation is a quick and dirty way of classifying things that are and aren't worth gambling with, given the overall risk. Insomuch as identifying _specific_ risk is not the sort of thing that the province or nation is tooled up for, it is understandable that the category of essential or non-essential is presently pretty sloppy and imprecise. I don't resent it. That's what emergencies _are_.

It would be nice if there was a service one could consult with, that had expert-informed context-appropriate checklists, and could say "Yep, looks good. Make sure you do this and this and especially continue doing _this_, and you're good to go". Maybe we'll get there, but we're not there yet. For now, the impatience that people feel is likely going to lead them to interpret the guidelines in a more self-serving way. That's not a criticism of yourself. Rather, it just gets more difficult to stand against the tide, when the tide is rising, no matter what motivates it.


----------



## Milkman

Right now we're able to work from home and have been doing so since before that was really mandatory.

We can continue doing so, but applying common sense to the situation and considering our work environment I think we can be there safely.

Naturally we're consulting with our legal council for direction.

It's not a problem for me to stay locked down. I would think it's much more severe for others.


----------



## davetcan

COVID-19: Southwestern Ontario outbreak puts migrant farm workers in spotlight | London Free Press

_The outbreak at Greenhill Produce in Kent Bridge is the first known major case of coronavirus on an Ontario farm. Monday, 43 employees there — all but a handful migrant workers — had tested positive. The first 11 workers confirmed as infected live in two of seven company residences._


----------



## mhammer

We've scowled at the quality-control (or lack thereof) in masks. Save some of that scowling for antibody tests.

Coronavirus Antibody Tests: Can You Trust the Results?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

COVID-19 to spur depression '10 times worse' than 2008: Rosenberg - BNN Bloomberg


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> We've scowled at the quality-control (or lack thereof) in masks. Save some of that scowling for antibody tests.
> 
> Coronavirus Antibody Tests: Can You Trust the Results?


How about some scowling for the whole "staying at home"solution. Wasn't two weeks supposed to provide the fire break? Then three then four .......


----------



## GuitarsCanada

allthumbs56 said:


> How about some scowling for the whole "staying at home"solution. Wasn't two weeks supposed to provide the fire break? Then three then four .......


All focus has now shifted to the economy. They know we are not getting out of this anytime soon. At least another 1.5 years or possibly never. So they need to come up with a plan that get's things moving again with "acceptable" losses. That's why they have been ordering and stockpiling for 2 months. They are getting prepared to throw all of us to the wolves and some will make it and some won't. It's going to be a bizarre world to live in for the next few years to say the least. But make no mistake, we are nowhere near emerging from this.


----------



## allthumbs56

GuitarsCanada said:


> All focus has now shifted to the economy. They know we are not getting out of this anytime soon. At least another 1.5 years or possibly never. So they need to come up with a plan that get's things moving again with "acceptable" losses. That's why they have been ordering and stockpiling for 2 months. They are getting prepared to throw all of us to the wolves and some will make it and some won't. It's going to be a bizarre world to live in for the next few years to say the least. But make no mistake, we are nowhere near emerging from this.


Can't help but think that the Climate Crusaders must be pretty orgasmic to find society being so regressive. We've wound progress back well before 2005.


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> We've scowled at the quality-control (or lack thereof) in masks. Save some of that scowling for antibody tests.
> 
> Coronavirus Antibody Tests: Can You Trust the Results?




Coronavirus: US report identifies most accurate antibody tests | Daily Mail Online

_
A new study of coronavirus antibody tests that are currently on the market revealed that at least eight out of 14 had an accuracy rate of more than 95 percent and three of those were more than 99 percent accurate, but doctors remain concerned that more work needs to be done before they can be solely relied upon to restart the world's economy. _


----------



## boyscout

If true, this may be the most outrageous pandemic-related bullying by police so far.

Sarnia man Pat McHenry took his dog outside for a walk; sounds like he was careful about social distancing. Police gave him an $880 ticket for "breaching a Covid-19 safety precaution".

Mr. McHenry got media attention for what he thought was an over-step by police. So the police returned to visit him.

_*One of the officers told McHenry that he had “good news” for the 72-year-old; His original $880 fine had been withdrawn.

However, he immediately presented McHenry with a new $1225 fine for violating the Quarantine Act.*_

Canadian Man Has Quarantine Fine Increased to $1255 For Walking His Dog


----------



## mhammer

boyscout said:


> If true, this may be the most outrageous pandemic-related bullying by police so far.
> 
> Sarnia man Pat McHenry took his dog outside for a walk; sounds like he was careful about social distancing. Police gave him an $880 ticket for "breaching a Covid-19 safety precaution".
> 
> Mr. McHenry got media attention for what he thought was an over-step by police. So the police returned to visit him.
> 
> _*One of the officers told McHenry that he had “good news” for the 72-year-old; His original $880 fine had been withdrawn.
> 
> However, he immediately presented McHenry with a new $1225 fine for violating the Quarantine Act.*_
> 
> Canadian Man Has Quarantine Fine Increased to $1255 For Walking His Dog


1) Like I keep saying, people in jobs involving enforcement of regulations and bylaws are rarely selected and hired for having the wisdom of Solomon, are never compensated more if they just so happen to possess that wisdom, and are never sent for training and development to acquire the wisdom of Solomon.

2) Normally, when in receipt of a fine, one has the option of fighting it in court. But how in the hell does one contest a fine if you're not supposed to leave your home or be anywhere that people might gather, like a courtroom? Does the payment of the fine get deferred until such time as a court date can be arranged? Is Mr. McHenry on the hook for the fine until a court date can be arranged? If he were to contest, and a court date could not be set until, say January 2021, and he won, would he be eligible for any interest on the amount paid, in addition to being reimbursed? So many questions.

3) Remind me not to move to Sarnia.


----------



## colchar

boyscout said:


> If true, this may be the most outrageous pandemic-related bullying by police so far.
> 
> Sarnia man Pat McHenry took his dog outside for a walk; sounds like he was careful about social distancing. Police gave him an $880 ticket for "breaching a Covid-19 safety precaution".
> 
> Mr. McHenry got media attention for what he thought was an over-step by police. So the police returned to visit him.
> 
> _*One of the officers told McHenry that he had “good news” for the 72-year-old; His original $880 fine had been withdrawn.
> 
> However, he immediately presented McHenry with a new $1225 fine for violating the Quarantine Act.*_
> 
> Canadian Man Has Quarantine Fine Increased to $1255 For Walking His Dog



I would pay to be in the courtroom the day those asshole cops attempt to justify the increased fine - and you just know that the Canadian Civil Liberties Association is falling over itself to represent this guy.


----------



## keto

boyscout said:


> If true, this may be the most outrageous pandemic-related bullying by police so far.
> 
> Sarnia man Pat McHenry took his dog outside for a walk; sounds like he was careful about social distancing. Police gave him an $880 ticket for "breaching a Covid-19 safety precaution".
> 
> Mr. McHenry got media attention for what he thought was an over-step by police. So the police returned to visit him.
> 
> _*One of the officers told McHenry that he had “good news” for the 72-year-old; His original $880 fine had been withdrawn.
> 
> However, he immediately presented McHenry with a new $1225 fine for violating the Quarantine Act.*_
> 
> Canadian Man Has Quarantine Fine Increased to $1255 For Walking His Dog


That's not on a single mainstream media source. I have no suspicion whatsoever that it's real.


----------



## bolero

I like this guy:

ps not political, more to do with banks


----------



## Distortion

GuitarsCanada said:


> All focus has now shifted to the economy. They know we are not getting out of this anytime soon. At least another 1.5 years or possibly never. So they need to come up with a plan that get's things moving again with "acceptable" losses. That's why they have been ordering and stockpiling for 2 months. They are getting prepared to throw all of us to the wolves and some will make it and some won't. It's going to be a bizarre world to live in for the next few years to say the least. But make no mistake, we are nowhere near emerging from this.


Yep they no they are not going to beat it. All talk now is firing things back up. _ Can't figure out with all this isolation and social distancing the infection rate is still about one to one which means if we stay locked up everyone will come in contact eventually. Wait till the gloves come off look out. _


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Opening up the economy?

OK, since this whole Covid thing started a couple of months ago they have been talking about the second wave of it. 

Historical evidence with the 1918 Spanish flu, the second wave took out more people than the first one. You can't tell me that the people in charge of things, and the medical staff that advises them, don't know this. If they fuck this up, the cost could be tremendous.


----------



## mhammer

Another very informative and well-explained youtube from the SciShow folks. As before, the guy talks fast and packs in an awful lot if one is not well-versed in immunology, virology and the basics of cell biology. I recommend slowing the playback speed to 0.75 if you want the content to stick and not feel like a blur.


----------



## _Azrael

Jim DaddyO said:


> Opening up the economy?
> 
> OK, since this whole Covid thing started a couple of months ago they have been talking about the second wave of it.
> 
> Historical evidence with the 1918 Spanish flu, the second wave took out more people than the first one. You can't tell me that the people in charge of things, and the medical staff that advises them, don't know this. If they fuck this up, the cost could be tremendous.


The kids at work call it “The Boomer Remover”.


----------



## Jim DaddyO




----------



## vadsy

_Azrael said:


> The kids at work call it “The Boomer Remover”.


also dangerous to people who ride tandem bikes and put their dogs in strollers or bike trailers


----------



## Wardo

See them here riding through city traffic with a fuckin kid in a bike trailer.


----------



## Distortion

Wardo said:


> See them here riding through city traffic with a fuckin kid in a bike trailer.


I see it too. I call it child abuse


----------



## Wardo

Sometimes they have a little flag on the trailer to keep gravel trucks away.


----------



## colchar

_Azrael said:


> The kids at work call it “The Boomer Remover”.



And the little shitbags need the ignorance and stupidity smacked out of them.


----------



## _Azrael

colchar said:


> And the little shitbags need the ignorance and stupidity smacked out of them.


In my line of work that’s a constant uphill battle, but you can give ‘er a go if you want.


----------



## Wardo

colchar said:


> And the little shitbags need the ignorance and stupidity smacked out of them.


if you were a music teacher you would be teaching them to count time with a metronome and a cattle prod... lol


----------



## Electraglide

_Azrael said:


> In my line of work that’s a constant uphill battle, but you can give ‘er a go if you want.


Just a bunch of twinkies.


----------



## _Azrael

Electraglide said:


> Just a bunch of twinkies.


Ironically, one of the things expected to outlive cockroaches.


----------



## vadsy

colchar said:


> And the little shitbags need the ignorance and stupidity smacked out of them.


but theyre not wrong


----------



## LanceT

Wardo said:


> See them here riding through city traffic with a fuckin kid in a bike trailer.


Those aren’t boomers unless they’re on their 3rd marriage. Or the kid is in his thirties.


----------



## Wardo

LanceT said:


> .. Or the kid is in his thirties.


And still living at home.


----------



## Doug Gifford

The denunciation of the young is a necessary part of the hygiene of older people, and greatly assists in the circulation of their blood. 
_Logan Pearsall Smith_


----------



## mhammer

No intergenerational resentment here, eh folks?
Just one big pot of unity and collaboration.


----------



## Milkman

I'm trying to be more fair in my views on the millennial generation than I have in the past. I have surely been guilty of being the old guy figuratively telling them to get the hell off my lawn.

What I do resent in this situation is the willingness of some to toss the generations to whom they owe EVERYTHING under the bus.

As I quickly approach the phase of my life where I will be in the senior demographic, I'm naturally gaining more appreciation for those who gave me life and nurtured me for much of it.


----------



## vadsy

Milkman said:


> I'm trying to be more fair in my views on the millennial generation than I have in the past. I have surely been guilty of being the old guy figuratively telling them to get the hell off my lawn.
> 
> What I do resent in this situation is the willingness of some to toss the generation to whom they owe EVERYTHING under the bus.
> 
> As I quickly approach the phase of my life where I will be in the senior demographic, I'm naturally gaining more appreciation for those who gave me life and nurtured me for much of it.


who exactly owes who _EVERYTHING?_


----------



## guitarman2

vadsy said:


> who exactly owes who _EVERYTHING? (Anything)_


Exactly what the entitled brats of today would say.


----------



## Milkman

Well, I personally owe everything I am and have to the generation that gave me life and I'm unwilling to sacrifice them in the pursuit of the almighty dollar.

But that's just me.


----------



## vadsy

guitarman2 said:


> Exactly what the entitled brats of today would say.


that is a given, no doubt. 

I was just hoping for clarification on the timeline, so please please correct me if Im wrong. millenniums owe EVERYTHING to boomers?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Where are people contracting COVID-19? Outside health-care settings, Ontario doesn't really know | CBC News


----------



## mhammer

Back when I used to work with hamsters at McMaster, our studies of the effect of daylength on pineal hormones and testicular size had 2 groups in internally lit cabinets with 5 or so shelves of cages; 180 animals per cabinet. Each group was subject to different artificial daylengths: 14 light / 10 dark, or 14 dark / 10 light. The ventilation system pulled in air at the bottom of the cabinet, and another fan pulled it out at the top. Slots in each shelf resulted in the air zig-zagging as it made its way from the bottom intake to the upper outtake. The casualties were all at the top. Those hamsters housed in cages on the top shelf, and sometimes the one below it, would get sick and die. It seemed that the ventilation and direction of airflow resulted in any pathogens from their cabinet-mates gathering and snowballing as the air made its way up and out through the top. We never saw any deaths in the bottom shelves.

I mention this because you have to wonder if there is greater incidence of transmission occurring in those contexts where many people are obliged to share air. Long term care homes are the obvious target, but there are also folks living in apartments and other circumstances where the air is shared and "imported", while weather conditions preclude throwing the windows wide open.


----------



## _Azrael

Milkman said:


> I'm trying to be more fair in my views on the millennial generation than I have in the past. I have surely been guilty of being the old guy figuratively telling them to get the hell off my lawn.
> 
> What I do resent in this situation is the willingness of some to toss the generation to whom they owe EVERYTHING under the bus.
> 
> As I quickly approach the phase of my life where I will be in the senior demographic, I'm naturally gaining more appreciation for those who gave me life and nurtured me for much of it.


Being GenX, what I’m seeing is a bunch of Millennials (who are now entering their late 30s) who are tired of being ruled over by a bunch of Boomers who are still fighting yesterday’s battles that no one under a certain age gives a shit about anymore.

When Boomers were young lots of money was dumped into education, when boomers got older money was pulled out of education to pay for infrastructure, when boomers got even older money was pulled out of infrastructure to pay for medical care. The previous statement is oversimplified, but my point is that being GenX, you get used to traversing through the crumbling leftovers as Boomers continually look after their own self interest. And we’re supposed to appreciate them for it? I can only imagine what it’s like for a millennial. Particularly the older ones that were trying to enter the workforce before the bulk of boomers retired (wanted: Junior Millwright. Minimum 10 years experience required).

You can see the generational tug-of-war reflected in the last couple of elections. As an older parent with a young child cutting education to pay for a tax break doesn’t buy my vote. I’d rather pay more and get a better product. I hear similar sentiments from other people about a broad range of subjects. 30 year olds aren’t interested in their grandparents battles.

The older I get the more irritable I get about it. I’m starting to think that just like we have 18 as a minimum voting age that maybe we need a maximum voting age. That people no longer in the workforce get a diminished say about the direction of our country.

IMO/YMMV


----------



## vadsy

I’ve been saying it for like literally ever, boomers are yesterdays millennials


----------



## Wardo

I owe my soul to the company store.

And if you think you’re gonna take my job then you’re gonna have to slog through about eight or nine years of post secondary education to even get a run at it... lol


----------



## _Azrael

Wardo said:


> I owe my soul to the company store.
> 
> And if you think you’re gonna take my job then you’re gonna have to slog through about eight or nine years of post secondary education to even get a run at it... lol


Which alludes another part of the problem. Boomers changing the rules to pensions and compulsory retirement to suit themselves at the cost of those who follow.


----------



## mhammer

_Azrael said:


> Being GenX, what I’m seeing is a bunch of Millennials (who are now entering their late 30s) who are tired of being ruled over by a bunch of Boomers who are still fighting yesterday’s battles that no one under a certain age gives a shit about anymore.
> 
> When Boomers were young lots of money was dumped into education, when boomers got older money was pulled out of education to pay for infrastructure, when boomers got even older money was pulled out of infrastructure to pay for medical care. The previous statement is oversimplified, but my point is that being GenX, you get used to traversing through the crumbling leftovers as Boomers continually look after their own self interest. And we’re supposed to appreciate them for it? I can only imagine what it’s like for a millennial. Particularly the older ones that were trying to enter the workforce before the bulk of boomers retired (wanted: Junior Millwright. Minimum 10 years experience required).
> 
> You can see the generational tug-of-war reflected in the last couple of elections. As an older parent with a young child cutting education to pay for a tax break doesn’t buy my vote. I’d rather pay more and get a better product. I hear similar sentiments from other people about a broad range of subjects. 30 year olds aren’t interested in their grandparents battles.
> 
> The older I get the more irritable I get about it. I’m starting to think that just like we have 18 as a minimum voting age that maybe we need a maximum voting age. That people no longer in the workforce get a diminished say about the direction of our country.
> 
> IMO/YMMV


If you think there _aren't_ any 26 year-old newly-hatched MBAs or MPAs, or comfortable Lexus-driving 35 year-olds - the so-called "boys in short pants" ( https://canadiangovernmentexecutive.ca/the-boys-in-short-pants/ ) - making corporate or even government economic decisions that mess up your life, think again.

I don't say this to blame young folks. Rather, what you're railing against is really socio-economic industrial-political changes that have taken place over the last 40 years. Obviously, folks old enough to be involved are going to have more impact on these changes than 10 year-olds, and folks just starting out and trying to get some traction as a grown-up are going to be more affected than those who have established themselves over time and become relatively bulletproof. But ultimately, ALL generations are involved and playing a role, and all are affected in one way or another. You'll see just as many people in community college here bitching about their taxes as you'll see folks in their late 40's or retirees doing the same. My 34 year-old son is complaining to me about what has happened to housing prices, but people my age are also complaining about how their defined-benefit pensions got magically transformed to defined contribution, and don't get me started about those at the tail-end of the boomer cohort that can't get jobs because some smartass 31 year-old manager thinks they're too old to hire. _Everybody_ is getting screwed one way or another by broader societal changes.

Much of what I see written about this generation or that is largely hogwash over-generalizations. The only thing that remains true are the societal events that successive birth cohorts were exposed to, and how old they were when that exposure happened.


----------



## boyscout

_Azrael said:


> When Boomers were young lots of money was dumped into education, when boomers got older money was pulled out of education to pay for infrastructure, when boomers got even older money was pulled out of infrastructure to pay for medical care.


This should be moved to the political section. It's also completely false as any examination of public accounts would show.


----------



## mhammer

_Azrael said:


> Which alludes another part of the problem. Boomers changing the rules to pensions and compulsory retirement to suit themselves at the cost of those who follow.


Mandatory retirement was brought in around the WWI years as a bargaining chip offered up to employers by labour unions. That's why the American pension system was named "social security". It was because employers could turf older workers who then had precious little to live on and could not secure any other employment. If one studies the history of pensions and retirement, it's all pretty arbitrary and based on political and economic-corporate decisions, rather than what some might think is biology.

The first public pension was provided in Germany in 1889 by Von Bismark, as an election promise, at age 70. That age was picked because it was one that the actuaries said could be afforded (not that many lived past that), and the pension was assumed to be a _supplement_ or topping up of what people were earning via their employment or farming activities; formally described as being in return for "a lifetime of service to the fatherland". Over the next few years, 70 was dropped down to 65, and was adopted as the standard by other European nations. As a politician, you couldn't afford to go lower, and you couldn't get elected if you went higher. Again, it had nothing to do with worker capability since it was assumed you'd still be working. Once the labour union movement gathered steam over the subsequent 25 years, and people were being forced out of work, pension size started to increase and transform slowly into a replacement for earned income rather than merely a supplement. Keep in mind that at that time, wages were correlated with seniority/tenure, so employers were only too happy to have a mechanism to push out those with 40 years of service, and bring in newbies, and unions wanted more paying members.

Everything taking place between 1890 and 1960 also had successive generations, all of whom I'm sure played a role in shaping those changes, and being victimized by them. A number of societal and economic factors have changed that have called many aspects of employment, employment preparation, pension, reliance on savings vs investments, housing costs, health expectations and longevity, family size, human mobility and distribution, and age demographics, into question. All of that means the current circumstances and assumed "solutions" for them will be unsatisfactory for a great many, and the paradigm has to change.

You're being screwed by social history my friend. And yes, since it has very little to do with Covid-19 and remaining healthy and safe, it _should_ move to the political section.


----------



## vadsy

boyscout said:


> This should be moved to the political section. It's also completely false as any examination of public accounts would show.


political?


----------



## Wardo

_Azrael said:


> Which alludes another part of the problem. Boomers changing the rules to pensions and compulsory retirement to suit themselves at the cost of those who follow.


I don’t think I’m actually a boomer but I am self employed so how can anyone reasonably tell me that I must retire from a business that I built and withdraw from my profession which only a small percent of the population are qualified for.


----------



## Distortion

Singapore and Germany relaxed their restrictions and their covid 19 rates have now surged. Hot off the press at todays New York covid 19 briefing.


----------



## High/Deaf

_Azrael said:


> You can see the generational tug-of-war reflected in the last couple of elections. As an older parent with a young child cutting education to pay for a tax break doesn’t buy my vote. *I’d rather pay more and get a better product. *I hear similar sentiments from other people about a broad range of subjects. 30 year olds aren’t interested in their grandparents battles.


The problem is, you never had the option to 'pay more', only to go further and further in debt. The option of 'paying more' doesn't work well in the polls. 

I'd have preferred to 'pay as we go' rather than just go deeper and deeper into the hole. How do you think your kids and their kids will feel about that, when the time comes?


----------



## Milkman

Distortion said:


> Singapore and Germany relaxed their restrictions and their covid 19 rates have now surged. Hot off the press at todays New York covid 19 briefing.



Yeah but it's good for the economy right? That's the main thing.


----------



## laristotle

High/Deaf said:


> How do you think your kids and their kids will feel about that, when the time comes?


Liberals will still be promising 'sunny ways' and it'll be great and great - great grand kids that'll have to deal with it.
or
They'll finally realize how stupid this generation of voters have been to screw them and never vote lieberal (or any socialist party) again.
worst case
China will rule the world and it won't matter what one thinks. In fact, it'll be against the law to do so.


----------



## Electraglide

_Azrael said:


> Being GenX, what I’m seeing is a bunch of Millennials (who are now entering their late 30s) who are tired of being ruled over by a bunch of Boomers who are still fighting yesterday’s battles that no one under a certain age gives a shit about anymore.
> 
> When Boomers were young lots of money was dumped into education, when boomers got older money was pulled out of education to pay for infrastructure, when boomers got even older money was pulled out of infrastructure to pay for medical care. The previous statement is oversimplified, but my point is that being GenX, you get used to traversing through the crumbling leftovers as Boomers continually look after their own self interest. And we’re supposed to appreciate them for it? I can only imagine what it’s like for a millennial. Particularly the older ones that were trying to enter the workforce before the bulk of boomers retired (wanted: Junior Millwright. Minimum 10 years experience required).
> 
> You can see the generational tug-of-war reflected in the last couple of elections. As an older parent with a young child cutting education to pay for a tax break doesn’t buy my vote. I’d rather pay more and get a better product. I hear similar sentiments from other people about a broad range of subjects. 30 year olds aren’t interested in their grandparents battles.
> 
> The older I get the more irritable I get about it. I’m starting to think that just like we have 18 as a minimum voting age that maybe we need a maximum voting age. That people no longer in the workforce get a diminished say about the direction of our country.
> 
> IMO/YMMV


Geez. I can remember saying about the same things when I was around your age. Damned WWII Vets and Korean War Vets just wouldn't move on. The battles they fought were interesting.....when I was 8. Go figure. 
Maximum voting age? Run for parliament and use that as your platform. While you're doing that check the age of the people who actually vote. 65 to 74 year olds.....Boomers I think they are called. Now what did you say? Oh yeah...."I can only imagine what it’s like for a millennial. Particularly the older ones that were trying to enter the workforce". Some one in their mid to late 30's who are finally getting a job.....maybe move away from home. 
You're what 42 or so? Your kid is 7. Give it 10 to 12 years and see what you think then.....and what he thinks. Then you'll laugh and laugh and laugh.


----------



## High/Deaf

laristotle said:


> Liberals will still be promising 'sunny ways' and it'll be great and great - great grand kids that'll have to deal with it.
> or
> They'll finally realize how stupid this generation of voters have been to screw them and never vote lieberal (or any socialist party) again.
> w
> China will rule the world and it won't matter what one thinks. In fact, it'll be against the law to do so.


To be fair (and to try and sidestep the obvious politics), ever party runs on a 'deficit' platform nowadays. Any party running a balanced budget platform would get killed at the polls. It's really just a matter of how much and for what.

Now, like in 2008, we really have no choice but to go into debt. I just wonder how we will ever get out of it.


----------



## Milkman

*Baby Boomers*: *Baby boomers* were born between 1944 and 1964. They're current between 55-75 *years* old (76 million in U.S.) Gen X: Gen X was born between 1965 - 1979 and are currently between 40-54 *years* old (82 million people in U.S.) Gen Y: Gen Y, or Millennials, were born between 1980 and 1994.Jul 29, 2019


----------



## vadsy

laristotle said:


> Liberals will still be promising 'sunny ways' and it'll be great and great - great grand kids that'll have to deal with it.
> or
> They'll finally realize how stupid this generation of voters have been to screw them and never vote lieberal (or any socialist party) again.
> worst case
> China will rule the world and it won't matter what one thinks. In fact, it'll be against the law to do so.


where is @boyscout and his political forum triggers when you need him?


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> *Baby Boomers*: *Baby boomers* were born between 1944 and 1964. They're current between 55-75 *years* old (76 million in U.S.) Gen X: Gen X was born between 1965 - 1979 and are currently between 40-54 *years* old (82 million people in U.S.) Gen Y: Gen Y, or Millennials, were born between 1980 and 1994.Jul 29, 2019


So you a boomer or a gen x? And what's the next generation called? It gets so confusing. 




Ok, back to covid. I hear your pets can get it. They may not be able to pass it back but it's said that they should go into isolation too if someone in the home gets it. Great, now your kids and dogs and cats want to get out of the house. I'm wondering tho, isn't one of the theories that this virus was passed some how from bats to humans? Is it going to get to be the same as the turtle thing?


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> So you a boomer or a gen x? And what's the next generation called? It gets so confusing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, back to covid. I hear your pets can get it. They may not be able to pass it back but it's said that they should go into isolation too if someone in the home gets it. Great, now your kids and dogs and cats want to get out of the house. I'm wondering tho, isn't one of the theories that this virus was passed some how from bats to humans? *Is it going to get to be the same as the turtle thing?*


I suppose the good news is that not many are adopting bats as pets, and bat-meat is still just as hard to find in the supermarket as flour and yeast. I keep asking, and they keep promising it's coming in any day, but I'm not seeing it.


----------



## Milkman

Electraglide said:


> So you a boomer or a gen x? And what's the next generation called? It gets so confusing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, back to covid. I hear your pets can get it. They may not be able to pass it back but it's said that they should go into isolation too if someone in the home gets it. Great, now your kids and dogs and cats want to get out of the house. I'm wondering tho, isn't one of the theories that this virus was passed some how from bats to humans? Is it going to get to be the same as the turtle thing?



According to the numbers I just posted, I'm a boomer.

The next generation? I guess it goes Boomers, Gen X, then GenY (millennials).

If my pets get the virus, they'll get it from us.


----------



## vadsy

Milkman said:


> According to the numbers I just posted, I'm a boomer.
> 
> The next generation? I guess it goes Boomers, Gen X, then GenY (millennials).
> 
> If my pets get the virus, they'll get it from us.


I still would like clarification, now that we’ve established what order things go in, who owes who everything?


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> I suppose the good news is that not many are adopting bats as pets, and bat-meat is still just as hard to find in the supermarket as flour and yeast. I keep asking, and they keep promising it's coming in any day, but I'm not seeing it.


Try bulk food stores. If cats and dogs can get it, can it be passed on the same way it gets passed by presumably bats etc.. Even if it can't, have you ever been around a dog or cat with a bad cold? Among other things they tend to bite.


----------



## Milkman

Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases

I keep looking at these numbers each morning and the one thing that keeps coming into my thoughts is, can we really believe that in India, a country with more than a billion people and with appalling sanitation infrastructure has around 31,000 cases and just over 1000 deaths?

That puts their covid deaths per 100K population at 0.1 vs Canada's 7.7

I'm not becoming competitive here. I just find that really hard to believe.


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> *Baby Boomers*: *Baby boomers* were born between 1944 and 1964. They're current between 55-75 *years* old (76 million in U.S.) Gen X: Gen X was born between 1965 - 1979 and are currently between 40-54 *years* old (82 million people in U.S.) Gen Y: Gen Y, or Millennials, were born between 1980 and 1994.Jul 29, 2019


That would mean that 8 of the current 35 (ish?) liberal cabinet members are boomers (only 4 over 60). Only 2 Millennials. The bulk are Gen Xers. Which age group should we blame?


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> According to the numbers I just posted, I'm a boomer.
> 
> The next generation? I guess it goes Boomers, Gen X, then GenY (millennials).
> 
> If my pets get the virus, they'll get it from us.


What comes after Gen Y? Gen Z? I seem to remember way back then boomers were what, Post War. As far as it goes I guess we're entitled to put the same love and warmth into calling them gen exs and whys as they call us Boomers.


----------



## High/Deaf

Milkman said:


> Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases
> 
> I keep looking at these numbers each morning and the one thing that keeps coming into my thoughts is, can we really believe that in India, a country with more than a billion people and with appalling sanitation infrastructure has around 31,000 cases and just over 1000 deaths?
> 
> That puts their covid deaths per 100K population at 0.1 vs Canada's 7.7
> 
> I'm not becoming competitive here. I just find that really hard to believe.


I keep wondering about that, too. I keep thinking the other shoe will drop one of these days and the numbers will absolutely expand by decades.

Of note, I don't think India is malicious with their information, I think it's just a lack of resources and them spending more time fighting the disease then documenting what their doing.

Unlike countries like China, Russia, North Korea - who have the resources but are fudging the numbers to benefit their own cause.


----------



## mhammer

Milkman said:


> Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases
> 
> I keep looking at these numbers each morning and the one thing that keeps coming into my thoughts is, can we really believe that in India, a country with more than a billion people and with appalling sanitation infrastructure has around 31,000 cases and just over 1000 deaths?
> 
> That puts their covid deaths per 100K population at 0.1 vs Canada's 7.7
> 
> I'm not becoming competitive here. I just find that really hard to believe.


And I would imagine many Indian citizens also find it hard to believe. Like I keep saying, one can't imagine that a nation with the sort of public health and hygiene-infrastructure shortcomings they have has the sort of health information systems that would allow for a proper and timely tally. If someone drops dead in a shanty village somewhere, it is unlikely that there will be any physician or other authority to properly classify and record the death and pass the information along. In the city, among the middle class, maybe. But there is a big chunk of that 1.3billion that don't fall into that category. It's not cover-up, as one might expect in other places. More a capacity issue.


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases
> 
> I keep looking at these numbers each morning and the one thing that keeps coming into my thoughts is, can we really believe that in India, a country with more than a billion people and with appalling sanitation infrastructure has around 31,000 cases and just over 1000 deaths?
> 
> That puts their covid deaths per 100K population at 0.1 vs Canada's 7.7
> 
> I'm not becoming competitive here. I just find that really hard to believe.


Not if you can believe that Nova Scotia somehow has more new cases per day than China


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> Not if you can believe that Nova Scotia somehow has more new cases per day than China



Well, to me that calls into question the reporting coming from China, not Nova Scotia as I suspect you also agree, but don't let me put words in your mouth.


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> Well, to me that calls into question the reporting coming from China, not Nova Scotia as I suspect you also agree, but don't let me put words in your mouth.


Suspicious, yup.

They reported 6 new cases yesterday - same as was reported here in the Niagara Region. Either theirs is a road map we should all be following - or something is afoot.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Electraglide said:


> So you a boomer or a gen x? And what's the next generation called? It gets so confusing.


Love this song. _Not_ a celebration of boomers at all…

As our lives become a capsule they send to the stars 
And our children look at us like we came from Mars 
As the farms disappear and the sky turns black 
We're a nation full of takers, never giving back 
We never stop to think what we consume

Kids of the baby boom 
Kids of the baby boom, we had freedom, we had money 
Baby boom, here in the land of milk and honey 
Counting our chickens way too soon 
Kids of the baby boom 
Our optimism mingles with the doom 
Kids of the baby boom


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> a nation with the sort of public health and hygiene-infrastructure shortcomings they have


Maybe that's the secret. Tougher immune system. Maybe that and not having a solid bowel movement in like....ever!


----------



## keto

Anyone who thinks case numbers reported, in ANY jurisdiction, have any relation whatsoever to the actual, you're dreaming.

Someday we may know, when everyone's antibody tested. Right now, we don't even have an educated guess.


----------



## Distortion

keto said:


> Anyone who thinks case numbers reported, in ANY jurisdiction, have any relation whatsoever to the actual, you're dreaming.
> 
> Someday we may know, when everyone's antibody tested. Right now, we don't even have an educated guess.


Fake news


----------



## mhammer

Distortion said:


> Fake news


In a few instances, yes, a matter of deliberate misrepresentation. In most instances, though, simply a matter of data-gathering difficulties. There's a lotta countries in the world and many of them are ill-equipped to have any sort of formal reporting infrastructure. Same way a company has to be above a certain size to have a Chief Information Officer.


----------



## Distortion

Two things I use for a accurate report. Government of Canada Corona virus web page and NY state press release. That is all that matters to me.


----------



## Electraglide

There's this,take it as you will. 
Experimental drug proven effective against coronavirus, biotech company says
If it proves effective I'll take a shot. Why not just as long as the nurse is pretty.
I'm sorry if it's not the Canadian gov't or some new york rag but Global is part of Canada's formal reporting infrastructure. I'd say most of the countries around the world have one of those.


----------



## Electraglide

Time for cities to get their shit together maybe?
Poop may tell us when the coronavirus lockdown will end


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Electraglide said:


> There's this,take it as you will.
> Experimental drug proven effective against coronavirus, biotech company says
> If it proves effective I'll take a shot. Why not just as long as the nurse is pretty.
> I'm sorry if it's not the Canadian gov't or some new york rag but Global is part of Canada's formal reporting infrastructure. I'd say most of the countries around the world have one of those.


The maker of the drug says it's proven effective, but the reporting of the only double blind test so far says otherwise. Here is the article they mention in the Lancet (British medical journal). They had to stop early because of serious side effects in 66% of those receiving the drug.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31022-9/fulltext

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Gilead Science, the maker of the drug, has a vested interest in selling the drug.


----------



## _Azrael

Wardo said:


> I don’t think I’m actually a boomer but I am self employed so how can anyone reasonably tell me that I must retire from a business that I built and withdraw from my profession which only a small percent of the population are qualified for.


I’d be supportive of a system where business owners votes were worth more than people drawing off the system. 

The more you contribute, the more your opinion matters.


----------



## Wardo

_Azrael said:


> ... system where business owners votes were worth more than people drawing off the system.


That idea didn't fly in Texas a long time ago so I'm thinking it wouldn't go over too well here... lol

BTW, if I'm not mistaken you are active military so I'll say thank you for your service.


----------



## _Azrael

Wardo said:


> That idea didn't fly in Texas a long time ago so I'm thinking it wouldn't go over too well here... lol


Here? It’d fly like a led balloon. I’d still support it.



> BTW, if I'm not mistaken you are active military so I'll say thank you for your service.


No problem. I thank you guys for paying your taxes.


----------



## Wardo

_Azrael said:


> No problem. I thank you guys for paying your taxes.


.. lol


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> The maker of the drug says it's proven effective, but the reporting of the only double blind test so far says otherwise. Here is the article they mention in the Lancet (British medical journal). They had to stop early because of serious side effects in 66% of those receiving the drug.
> 
> https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31022-9/fulltext
> 
> Not to put too fine a point on it, but Gilead Science, the maker of the drug, has a vested interest in selling the drug.


The drug was originally developed to treat ebola and is known to produce undesirable side effects. Fauci was reporting a much larger NIH-led multinational study of over 1000 patients today ( 'Glimmer of hope': Antiviral remdesivir shortens recovery time in U.S. study | CBC News ), in which Remdesivir showed very promising results. The benefit it provides is probably more appealing to health officials than the public, though. For those who recovered, they recovered about 4 days faster on average. That doesn't mean they had an easier time, and doesn't mean there won't be any laster effects. But it does mean that inpatients will be discharged sooner and free up ICU beds, ventilators, and all those other things required, which are aspects of the system being overburdened. You'll recall that a big part of what resulted in the death toll in Italy was that there were just too many patients for the system to handle.

I don't know that it's a "game-changer", but it looks like it helps, and help is good.


----------



## mhammer

_Azrael said:


> I’d be supportive of a system where business owners votes were worth more than people drawing off the system.
> 
> The more you contribute, the more your opinion matters.


That sounds great....except that it reduces the voice of poor people. So if you think a nation has no responsibility to think about or do anything for its poor, and should principally serve the wealthy, you've described a perfect democracy. You may want to go back to the drawing board on that one.


----------



## _Azrael

mhammer said:


> That sounds great....except that it reduces the voice of poor people. So if you think a nation has no responsibility to think about or do anything for its poor, and should principally serve the wealthy, you've described a perfect democracy. You may want to go back to the drawing board on that one.


1. Lots of business owners aren’t rich.

2. Reduced doesn’t mean eliminated, and the poor will still have numbers on their side.


----------



## Wardo

mhammer said:


> ....except that it reduces the voice of poor people. So if you think a nation has no responsibility to think about or do anything for its poor, and should principally serve the wealthy ..


Leaving aside the notion of an asymmetrical ballot system, reducing the voice of the so called “poor” does not necessarily equate to taking no responsibility for them. It’s arguable that people who generate wealth have a better idea about generating wealth than the people you often see in Tim Hortons who can barely order a coffee and a doughnut without getting it wrong. More wealth generated in a society usually results in more welfare or health care or whatever for those who are not successful in life. On the other hand, it’s one of those where do you draw the line situations so we don’t go there.


----------



## bolero

Distortion said:


> Two things I use for a accurate report. Government of Canada Corona virus web page and NY state press release. That is all that matters to me.


 screw that. I only trust the WHO and the official news out of China


----------



## Wardo

And don’t forget the metal jacket sniper.


----------



## tomee2

vadsy said:


> I still would like clarification, now that we’ve established what order things go in, who owes who everything?


We all owe the generations before the baby boomers...


----------



## Guitar101

On CNN this morning, they were raving about a hood that there trying out in the states that provides oxygen in a different form for the patients. They were saying it helps the patients and in some cases they may not have to go on a respirator. They were also raving about the fact that these hoods cost less than $200 and respirators cost thousands. When all this started a month or two ago, I remember watching a video of Covid-19 patients in an Italian hospital and some were wearing a hood like this. Is the United States a little late to the party?

Here's a little more information about these hoods from a March 25th article:
_MONTREAL -- The Director of Anesthesia at the Montreal General Hospital is on a mission to quickly identify a Canadian business able to manufacture plastic, non-invasive, oxygen-therapy hoods, similar to ones being used in Italy’s hospitals to treat a devastating number of patients with COVID-19.

CTV News learned the Quebec government has assembled a team to study the medical device as well.

“In my view, it’s paramount because if you see in the emergency, all the patients in Bergamo are on that helmet. The ventilator cannot be the only answer to this outbreak,” said Dr. Francesco Donatelli.

According to Donatelli, the respiratory hoods, which do not require a ventilator, could help preserve Quebec’s precious supply of ventilators for the most seriously ill patients, reduce ICU admissions, and possibly help prevent the spread of the virus from patient to health-care workers.

“For example, here we have a mask that we use to do CPAP (continuous positive airway pressure), but the CPAP puts the person taking care of the patient – too close to the patient. The high flow is going towards the patient but can bounce back to the operator. It’s not published, but it’s reasonable to think that if you breathe in a closed helmet, you can spread the virus less.“

The number of cases in Quebec has climbed dramatically in the last three days, with 35 people now in intensive care.

“I don’t want to be catastrophic,” said Donatelli, “but we have to be ready for the worst.”

As early as three weeks ago, Donatelli contacted the European company that makes the respiratory hood to find out if Quebec hospitals would be able to place orders should the device be approved by the federal and provincial governments.

To his great dismay, a company representative Marco Finotti told him in an email obtained by CTV, “the Italian Government is preventing us from exporting our products as they are deemed necessary items to face the emergency. We have had requests from all over the world.”

So, the Anesthesia director contacted Quebec’s Health Ministry on Mar. 19 about his idea to produce the device here but received no reply._


----------



## tomee2

keto said:


> Anyone who thinks case numbers reported, in ANY jurisdiction, have any relation whatsoever to the actual, you're dreaming.
> 
> Someday we may know, when everyone's antibody tested. Right now, we don't even have an educated guess.


Case numbers are dependent on testing. NY proved that with their recent testing experiment. I've read that if tests are 10x more than reported cases then the case numbers are probably close but even then might be double or more because many people with no symptoms get it and recover and are not tested. Deaths are a better indication, but even then there are differences. Belgium was upset at being used by Trump as an example as to how bad it could be, as they count all suspected deaths whe many US states count only positive tested cases.
I've also noticed a weekend dip in the US deaths, as if no one dies on weekends.


----------



## Distortion

tomee2 said:


> We all owe the generations before the baby boomers...


Tend to agree with you. If it was not for them we would all be speaking German.


----------



## mhammer

tomee2 said:


> Case numbers are dependent on testing. NY proved that with their recent testing experiment. I've read that if tests are 10x more than reported cases then the case numbers are probably close but even then might be double or more because many people with no symptoms get it and recover and are not tested. Deaths are a better indication, but even then there are differences. Belgium was upset at being used by Trump as an example as to how bad it could be, as they count all suspected deaths whe many US states count only positive tested cases.
> I've also noticed a weekend dip in the US deaths, as if no one dies on weekends.


That's an ongoing issue in reporting. NYC is improving, but at the peak, they had these people who were being found dead at home. In the absence of knowing whether the deceased's symptoms prior to death conformed to Covid-19, how do you know what they _really_ died from? If it weren't for the all-hands-on-deck scenario, perhaps they'd take the time to do a post-mortem. But at this point, if it doesn't appear to be a homicide, I imagine that "natural causes" is about as close as the post-mortem is going to get.

Interesting situation with Florida. The state is requiring that their reported numbers only reflect people who "live" in Florida, such that any snowbirds or others who reside there 4 months a year and happened to get sick and die from Covid-19 during the 4 months they spent in Florida are not included in the tallies. I suppose from some perspectives this might make sense. But from the perspective of "Where are the outbreaks that merit the most aggressive virus-control practices?", it makes no sense whatsoever.


----------



## Doug Gifford

mhammer said:


> Interesting situation with Florida. The state is requiring that their reported numbers only reflect people who "live" in Florida, such that any snowbirds or others who reside there 4 months a year and happened to get sick and die from Covid-19 during the 4 months they spent in Florida are not included in the tallies. I suppose from some perspectives this might make sense. But from the perspective of "Where are the outbreaks that merit the most aggressive virus-control practices?", it makes no sense whatsoever.


So, if Trump gets sick, who gets to count him? NY, FL or DC?


----------



## High/Deaf

_Azrael said:


> I’d be supportive of a system where business owners votes were worth more than people drawing off the system.
> 
> The more you contribute, the more your opinion matters.


While probably unworkable, it is an interesting idea. It isn't really perfect right now.

A lot more people don't own business than do, but everyone gets a say - so the employees have more power than the employers if based on a democratic vote. There's a lot more middle-class/poor than rich so again, a similar situation.

The UN is a good example. Africa has 26+ times more voting power than North America. And how has that worked out? Not very well, IMO.


----------



## Electraglide

Wardo said:


> That idea didn't fly in Texas a long time ago so I'm thinking it wouldn't go over too well here... lol
> 
> BTW, if I'm not mistaken you are active military so I'll say thank you for your service.


Didn't work that way in a lot of places when the business owners voted in the town council and the law, sheriff or what ever, and the regular folk, farmers, workers etc. didn't have a say. Same with when they added the property owners to the list.


----------



## butterknucket




----------



## laristotle

Read this on FB

_Don’t know who wrote it, but it’s spot on.

Perspective:

WE ARE NOT IN THE SAME BOAT ...
I heard that we are all in the same boat, but it's not like that. We are in the same storm, but not in the same boat. Your ship could be shipwrecked and mine might not be. Or vice versa.

For some, quarantine is optimal. A moment of reflection, of re-connection, easy in flip flops, with a cocktail or coffee. For others, this is a desperate financial & family crisis.

For some that live alone, they're facing endless loneliness. While for others it is peace, rest & time with their mother, father, sons & daughters.

With the $600 weekly increase in unemployment, some are bringing in more money to their households than they were working. Others are working more hours for less money due to pay cuts or loss in sales.

Some families of 4 just received $3400 from the stimulus while other families of 4 saw $0.

Some were concerned about getting a certain candy for Easter while others were concerned if there would be enough bread, milk and eggs for the weekend.

Some want to go back to work because they don't qualify for unemployment and are running out of money. Others want to kill those who break the quarantine.

Some are home spending 2-3 hours/day helping their child with online schooling while others are spending 2-3 hours/day to educate their children on top of a 10-12 hour workday.

Some have experienced the near-death of the virus, some have already lost someone from it and some are not sure if their loved ones are going to make it. Others don't believe this is a big deal.

Some have faith in God and expect miracles during 2020. Others say the worst is yet to come.

So, friends, we are not in the same boat. We are going through a time when our perceptions and needs are completely different.

Each of us will emerge, in our own way, from this storm. It is very important to see beyond what is seen at first glance. Not just looking, actually seeing.

We are all on different ships during this storm experiencing a very different journey.

Realize that and be kind.

Unknown author_


----------



## mhammer

Maybe drive-in movies are making, or will make, a comeback?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/30/drive-in-theaters-covid-open/


----------



## colchar

Guitar101 said:


> On CNN this morning, they were raving about a hood that there trying out in the states that provides oxygen in a different form for the patients. They were saying it helps the patients and in some cases they may not have to go on a respirator. They were also raving about the fact that these hoods cost less than $200 and respirators cost thousands. When all this started a month or two ago, I remember watching a video of Covid-19 patients in an Italian hospital and some were wearing a hood like this. Is the United States a little late to the party?
> 
> Here's a little more information about these hoods from a March 25th article:
> _MONTREAL -- The Director of Anesthesia at the Montreal General Hospital is on a mission to quickly identify a Canadian business able to manufacture plastic, non-invasive, oxygen-therapy hoods, similar to ones being used in Italy’s hospitals to treat a devastating number of patients with COVID-19.
> 
> CTV News learned the Quebec government has assembled a team to study the medical device as well.
> 
> “In my view, it’s paramount because if you see in the emergency, all the patients in Bergamo are on that helmet. The ventilator cannot be the only answer to this outbreak,” said Dr. Francesco Donatelli.
> 
> According to Donatelli, the respiratory hoods, which do not require a ventilator, could help preserve Quebec’s precious supply of ventilators for the most seriously ill patients, reduce ICU admissions, and possibly help prevent the spread of the virus from patient to health-care workers.
> 
> “For example, here we have a mask that we use to do CPAP (continuous positive airway pressure), but the CPAP puts the person taking care of the patient – too close to the patient. The high flow is going towards the patient but can bounce back to the operator. It’s not published, but it’s reasonable to think that if you breathe in a closed helmet, you can spread the virus less.“
> 
> The number of cases in Quebec has climbed dramatically in the last three days, with 35 people now in intensive care.
> 
> “I don’t want to be catastrophic,” said Donatelli, “but we have to be ready for the worst.”
> 
> As early as three weeks ago, Donatelli contacted the European company that makes the respiratory hood to find out if Quebec hospitals would be able to place orders should the device be approved by the federal and provincial governments.
> 
> To his great dismay, a company representative Marco Finotti told him in an email obtained by CTV, “the Italian Government is preventing us from exporting our products as they are deemed necessary items to face the emergency. We have had requests from all over the world.”
> 
> So, the Anesthesia director contacted Quebec’s Health Ministry on Mar. 19 about his idea to produce the device here but received no reply._



The US raved about its new naval jets - the Sea Harrier - as if they were some new wonder of the world, except they were raving about them after Britain had been using them for a decade or more.

Don't you know nothing, and I mean nothing, matters until the American use it?


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> Maybe drive-in movies are making, or will make, a comeback?
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/30/drive-in-theaters-covid-open/



They were talking about that in the _Sun_ weeks ago. The gist was that they are open in the US but closed here.


----------



## Kenmac

Here in Ontario, "We're getting close," Doug Ford tells businesses to prepare for reopening:

'We're Getting Close': Ford Tells Businesses To Prepare For Reopening


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> Maybe drive-in movies are making, or will make, a comeback?
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/04/30/drive-in-theaters-covid-open/


That will be nice.


colchar said:


> They were talking about that in the _Sun_ weeks ago. The gist was that they are open in the US but closed here.


There are a lot more in the US than here. 3 in BC and they are or will be open shortly. Same with the rest of Canada. I've yet to see a standing screen in AB aside from the portable ones they put up in parking lots. Might be some standing screens across Canada that could be refurbished.
Drive-ins and Drive-in Theaters of Canada


----------



## colchar

Kenmac said:


> Here in Ontario, "We're getting close," Doug Ford tells businesses to prepare for reopening:
> 
> 'We're Getting Close': Ford Tells Businesses To Prepare For Reopening



I just want to be able to walk into a store without a lineup, but I expect that will be a ways off.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> I just want to be able to walk into a store without a lineup, but I expect that will be a ways off.


It will just be nice to walk into a store that sell shoes and boots larger than size 12. Around here the only place open that sells boots or shoes is wallyworld and depending on the style and where they are made I'm a size 13 and up. 99% of what they have that I'm interested in goes to size 12. As soon as the shoe repair place opens up my riding boots go in to get re-heeled. The soles should last for another year or two.....the boots are around 20 years old.....just getting broken in. Other than that I want to sit down and have a burger, fries and gravy and a Coke......and watch the girls walk by.


----------



## _Azrael

Did a Zoom meeting with my band tonight. Some interesting things were brought up.

One is in insurance and sees a lot of government reports. He mentioned that the provinces are stockpiling PPE in preparation for the second wave. He also mentioned a lot of unscheduled flights between here and Japan that appear to be cargo flights. Governments are trying to figure out how to manage scheduling and vacation time so that they have all hands on deck for the next round.

Another is in real estate/property management/investment. He mentioned a bunch of screening measures that've been instituted in the Singapore offices (full body temperature scanners, facial recognition, staggered work hours where different floors report at different times to reduce congestion) aren’t working and they’re expecting a second lockdown.

Another is a nurse who’s already been in and out of isolation and is dealing with this everyday. In addition to a near term surge from people becoming complacent she’s concerned about November due to normal seasonal illness being complicated by COVID. Her opinion is that the fall will be worse than the spring.

Nothing groundbreaking, but perhaps a little more interesting than regurgitated news articles.


----------



## vadsy

Investing in companies that are all about the temp and body scanners is gonna make people a lot of money. Every public building is gonna have a forehead zapping temp scanner installed at every door.


----------



## _Azrael

vadsy said:


> Investing in companies that are all about the temp and body scanners is gonna make people a lot of money. Every public building is gonna have a forehead zapping temp scanner installed at every door.


Years ago a buddy of mine told me to invest in toilet paper.

Kind of wished I’d listened.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

vadsy said:


> Investing in companies that are all about the temp and body scanners is gonna make people a lot of money. Every public building is gonna have a forehead zapping temp scanner installed at every door.


Buddy of mine is returning to work at GM next week. They sent out a document 2 pages long of what they will be required to do when they go back. It's bizarre and ridiculous. Welcome to the future


----------



## _Azrael

GuitarsCanada said:


> Buddy of mine is returning to work at GM next week. They sent out a document 2 pages long of what they will be required to do when they go back. It's bizarre and ridiculous. Welcome to the future


Makes me wonder where companies sit in terms of liability. Particularly industries where distancing guidelines are physically impossible within current infrastructure.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

GuitarsCanada said:


> It's bizarre and ridiculous.


If you would have told someone a year ago that we would be living the way we are today, they would have said the same thing...lol.

You could apply the same statement to almost anything outside our experience.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Jim DaddyO said:


> If you would have told someone a year ago that we would be living the way we are today, they would have said the same thing...lol.
> 
> You could apply the same statement to almost anything outside our experience.


I have been reading over the "guidelines" for several different sectors and based on what is expected of them they may as well stay closed. For instance... a hairdresser would be allowed to have only one customer in the store at any given time. They have one pair of hands and only so many hours in a day. Can't make any money doing that. Restaurants will struggle huge. Staggered and limited seating. No changes really for big box stores. You will still line up and be metered in. Word is Costco is requiring the public to wear masks starting next week, limited entry etc etc. 

It's a nightmare and will continue to be a nightmare for a very long time.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

_Azrael said:


> Makes me wonder where companies sit in terms of liability. Particularly industries where distancing guidelines are physically impossible within current infrastructure.


That is a valid concern and one I am sure is going to be tested before long


----------



## Electraglide

GuitarsCanada said:


> Buddy of mine is returning to work at GM next week. They sent out a document 2 pages long of what they will be required to do when they go back. It's bizarre and ridiculous. Welcome to the future


I don't see what's bizarre and ridiculous about it. The last company I worked for handed out the company policy every year plus had it posted in the lunch room. It is a sub-contractor for among other things the oil patch so things are always changing. Same with when I worked in the nursery. Every year policies changed, a lot regulated by the gov't. There are new company policies so the workers have to be informed, right. I suppose they could have waited until every one got back.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Electraglide said:


> I don't see what's bizarre and ridiculous about it. The last company I worked for handed out the company policy every year plus had it posted in the lunch room. It is a sub-contractor for among other things the oil patch so things are always changing. Same with when I worked in the nursery. Every year policies changed, a lot regulated by the gov't. There are new company policies so the workers have to be informed, right. I suppose they could have waited until every one got back.


It's not the document it's the added stress and rules. They can't use any microwaves or refrigerators and the cafeterias are closed. So unless you bring a warm bologna sandwich with you, you won't be having anything to eat. Three shifts are now staggered across the entire day, you may now be told to show up at 3:20 pm precisely. Lunchrooms are essentially closed. Showers and locker rooms will be staggered and limited. So after your 8 hour shift you have to get in line to get changed and showered or go home dirty. No more job rotation. If you ever worked on a line you know how much that means. Masks to be worn from your car to your car, no exceptions. Temp checks on entry.... the list is endless.


----------



## Electraglide

GuitarsCanada said:


> I have been reading over the "guidelines" for several different sectors and based on what is expected of them they may as well stay closed. For instance... a hairdresser would be allowed to have only one customer in the store at any given time. They have one pair of hands and only so many hours in a day. Can't make any money doing that. Restaurants will struggle huge. Staggered and limited seating. No changes really for big box stores. You will still line up and be metered in. Word is Costco is requiring the public to wear masks starting next week, limited entry etc etc.
> 
> It's a nightmare and will continue to be a nightmare for a very long time.


Seems each province is different. Restaurants here 50% of capacity and if they have a bar it's closed. 
Alberta to phase in parks, restaurants and retail stores in newly revealed relaunch strategy
As far as being a nightmare....it will be one only if you let it. I've gone to Costco with my son and have stood in line ups to get in before the virus....same to get out. And here, depending when you shop and where, there might be a line up and there might not.


----------



## _Azrael

GuitarsCanada said:


> a hairdresser would be allowed to have only one customer in the store at any given time. They have one pair of hands and only so many hours in a day. Can't make any money doing that.


A friend of my wife is going through this right now.

They can via passing the costs on to customers, the question is will enough people be able to afford the service?

The other question is, considering the risk to herself, does she want to provide the service? She’s pretty pissed off at her client base for what she perceives as a lack of treating COVID seriously. She doesn’t really trust those people to enter her shop (aka, why comments on Facebook can get you fired by your hairdresser).


----------



## Jim DaddyO

GuitarsCanada said:


> I have been reading over the "guidelines" for several different sectors and based on what is expected of them they may as well stay closed. For instance... a hairdresser would be allowed to have only one customer in the store at any given time. They have one pair of hands and only so many hours in a day. Can't make any money doing that. Restaurants will struggle huge. Staggered and limited seating. No changes really for big box stores. You will still line up and be metered in. Word is Costco is requiring the public to wear masks starting next week, limited entry etc etc.
> 
> It's a nightmare and will continue to be a nightmare for a very long time.



Strange times indeed. I guess when no one really have an accurate answer you just throw anything at it a see what works sometimes. There are still more questions than answers. I feel bad for those small businesses and workers caught in the middle with no clear answers.


----------



## Electraglide

GuitarsCanada said:


> It's not the document it's the added stress and rules. They can't use any microwaves or refrigerators and the cafeterias are closed. So unless you bring a warm bologna sandwich with you, you won't be having anything to eat. Three shifts are now staggered across the entire day, you may now be told to show up at 3:20 pm precisely. Lunchrooms are essentially closed. Showers and locker rooms will be staggered and limited. So after your 8 hour shift you have to get in line to get changed and showered or go home dirty. No more job rotation. If you ever worked on a line you know how much that means. Masks to be worn from your car to your car, no exceptions. Temp checks on entry.... the list is endless.


I've worked on lines before and don't see any problems with this.....you've never taken your lunch in a small cooler style lunch box, or used a thermos? Staggered shifts, so. Can't see any problem and the money is probably more than the workers are making on EI or CERB.


----------



## Electraglide

_Azrael said:


> A friend of my wife is going through this right now.
> 
> They can via passing the costs on to customers, the question is will enough people be able to afford the service?
> 
> The other question is, considering the risk to herself, does she want to provide the service? She’s pretty pissed off at her client base for what she perceives as a lack of treating COVID seriously. She doesn’t really trust those people to enter her shop (aka, why comments on Facebook can get you fired by your hairdresser).


As far as I've read there are no restrictions on hair dressers in Ab. except for 'social distancing'. If you have a one or two seat shop then you're back making the money you always made.....if it's bigger and you can space your customers then not a lot is lost. As far as your friend opening her shop or not, that's her call.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Electraglide said:


> As far as I've read there are no restrictions on hair dressers in Ab. except for 'social distancing'. If you have a one or two seat shop then you're back making the money you always made.....if it's bigger and you can space your customers then not a lot is lost. As far as your friend opening her shop or not, that's her call.


I rented to hairdressers for years. The shops are not made to accommodate such measures. The seats are not far apart enough for either the hairdresser(s) or the customer. The waiting rooms and entries are not made to accommodate these guidelines. The hair washing stations (usually only 1 or 2) are usually right next to each other and across the room. No way to get to the sinks without crossing everyone else in the shop. Same as our business. We have an entry and small waiting room plus 7 different rooms with tanning machines in them and 3 other rooms for waxing and sugaring and spray tans etc. Plus we could never have more then one person working either. No possible way we could accommodate the guidelines unless we brought people in one by one and if you do that you may as well close now. It's not just a matter of accommodating the new guidelines its a matter of income. I could lists hundreds of small businesses in the same situation. We are talking about places that are 800 to 1500 square feet. I am sure that many will just bypass the guidelines in order to survive.


----------



## keto

We have a decision to make about reopening home daycare. I'm firmly in 'not right now'. My wife the business owner is concerned about $$. Fuckit, as long as that government program is available, we're taking it. The last kids she let go were 3 belonging to 2 cops. Yesterday we hear covid19 went or going thru the police force. Nope.


----------



## allthumbs56

GuitarsCanada said:


> It's not the document it's the added stress and rules. They can't use any microwaves or refrigerators and the cafeterias are closed. So unless you bring a warm bologna sandwich with you, you won't be having anything to eat. Three shifts are now staggered across the entire day, you may now be told to show up at 3:20 pm precisely. Lunchrooms are essentially closed. Showers and locker rooms will be staggered and limited. So after your 8 hour shift you have to get in line to get changed and showered or go home dirty. No more job rotation. If you ever worked on a line you know how much that means. Masks to be worn from your car to your car, no exceptions. Temp checks on entry.... the list is endless.


So why isn't Diaz in this fight? 

I'm guessing he's pretty much given up on the auto sector and is focusing his efforts on the endless finances of the public sector these days.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

keto said:


> We have a decision to make about reopening home daycare. I'm firmly in 'not right now'. My wife the business owner is concerned about $$. Fuckit, as long as that government program is available, we're taking it. The last kids she let go were 3 belonging to 2 cops. Yesterday we hear covid19 went or going thru the police force. Nope.


We have no plans on re-opening. It's clear with the guidelines, public sentiment and the total collapse of the travel industry that we are pretty much doomed. Our lease expires in October of 2021 we have been in business there for 13 years. I paid no rent in April and will pay none in May. Where it all shakes out is anyone's guess. The way I look at it is I had no part in this at all. Never missed a rent payment and would still be paying today if not for this. I have no issues in settling it in a courtroom 5 years from now or whenever it gets on the docket. When the time comes I will file for bankruptcy if need be, but nobody is getting a dime.


----------



## _Azrael

keto said:


> We have a decision to make about reopening home daycare. I'm firmly in 'not right now'. My wife the business owner is concerned about $$. Fuckit, as long as that government program is available, we're taking it. The last kids she let go were 3 belonging to 2 cops. Yesterday we hear covid19 went or going thru the police force. Nope.


My wife is in daycare and already running into issues as the daycare is on federal land and management is arguing that once they reopen they don’t need to follow Alberta Health guidelines.


----------



## Milkman

Every Friday we decide whether we will continue working from home or resume going to the office.

This morning it was decided we'll spend at least one more week working from home.

I'm happy with that.


----------



## keto

_Azrael said:


> My wife is in daycare and already running into issues as the daycare is on federal land and management is arguing that once they reopen they don’t need to follow Alberta Health guidelines.


But if she's an employee, she'll likely have to comply with management or lose her job, right?


----------



## _Azrael

keto said:


> But if she's an employee, she'll likely have to comply with management or lose her job, right?


Correct.

But it’s provincially licensed, so complying with management may also cost her her job.


----------



## colchar

_Azrael said:


> He mentioned that the provinces are stockpiling PPE in preparation for the second wave.



We're stockpiling while still being short of it on the front lines?




> Another is in real estate/property management/investment. He mentioned a bunch of screening measures that've been instituted in the Singapore offices (full body temperature scanners, facial recognition, staggered work hours where different floors report at different times to reduce congestion) aren’t working and they’re expecting a second lockdown.



Singapore has never ended the first lockdown. In fact, they have extended it to June 1st.


----------



## colchar

GuitarsCanada said:


> Word is Costco is requiring the public to wear masks starting next week, limited entry etc etc.



Where did you hear this?

I've got a TV to buy, and I ain't wearing one.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

colchar said:


> Where did you hear this?
> 
> I've got a TV to buy, and I ain't wearing one.


Couple of people posted it on FB. Apparently it's posted for people to read in store


----------



## colchar

GuitarsCanada said:


> Couple of people posted it on FB. Apparently it's posted for people to read in store



I would be hesitant to believe anything on Facebook.

I have been in Costco twice this week and haven't seen anything about that. I will be in there again this evening so will be sure to check.

I was also on their website ten minutes ago and no mention of it there either:

https://www.costco.ca/coronavirus-response.html


----------



## colchar

Double post.

I blame day drinking.


----------



## Wardo

colchar said:


> Double post.
> 
> I blame day drinking.


Prof that I had for Taxation used to be half in the bag for the Thursday afternoon class because he’d down a few at lunch time. He carried his lecture notes in the plastic liquor store bags that they had then. He had brains to burn though and could run complex math calculations in his head even when slightly pissed.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> Double post.
> 
> I blame day drinking.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Doug Gifford

This is a well-thought-out, informed and articulate article on protecting yourself. Well worth a read.

Saving Your Health, One Mask at a Time


----------



## GuitarsCanada

colchar said:


> I would be hesitant to believe anything on Facebook.
> 
> I have been in Costco twice this week and haven't seen anything about that. I will be in there again this evening so will be sure to check.
> 
> I was also on their website ten minutes ago and no mention of it there either:
> 
> https://www.costco.ca/coronavirus-response.html



Costco Canada Customers Will Need to Wear Protective Face Coverings Starting May 4th - RedFlagDeals.com


----------



## Guitar101

Milkman said:


> Every Friday we decide whether we will continue working from home or resume going to the office.
> 
> This morning it was decided we'll spend at least one more week working from home.
> 
> I'm happy with that.


Will the plants be opening?


----------



## Guitar101

GuitarsCanada said:


> Costco Canada Customers Will Need to Wear Protective Face Coverings Starting May 4th - RedFlagDeals.com


Thanks for the tip. Time to breakout my cowboy hat and bandana. Hmmm, I wonder if my old cowboy boots still fit me?
I would have been arrested if I dressed like that a year ago. Now they're requiring it. How times have changed.


----------



## laristotle

colchar said:


> I would be hesitant to believe anything on Facebook.


----------



## Milkman

Guitar101 said:


> Will the plants be opening?


Not for at least one or two more weeks.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

April auto sales plummet into 'uncharted territory' with 75% drop - BNN Bloomberg

For those with the cash and the need......... the deals are going to be spectacular in the months to come


----------



## Electraglide

GuitarsCanada said:


> Costco Canada Customers Will Need to Wear Protective Face Coverings Starting May 4th - RedFlagDeals.com


"While the Costco Canada website has yet to be updated, we expect it to follow the US Costco website which today updated their “Face Mask Requirements” section as follows:" They expect! That was on the 29th of April.
Canadian Costco shoppers not required to wear face masks like in the U.S. - Abbotsford News
Nothing on the Costco Canada site but quite a bit from various Costco Stores saying you don't have to wear one.


----------



## colchar

GuitarsCanada said:


> Costco Canada Customers Will Need to Wear Protective Face Coverings Starting May 4th - RedFlagDeals.com



I'll believe it when Costco or a real news source says it, not when Red Flag Deals does, and even that source claimed that it was not a uniform policy. I asked when I was in there yesterday (wanted to know so that I could plan when to go get my TV) and was told they were not doing that.


----------



## colchar

GuitarsCanada said:


> April auto sales plummet into 'uncharted territory' with 75% drop - BNN Bloomberg
> 
> For those with the cash and the need......... the deals are going to be spectacular in the months to come



I've been kicking myself for buying the Cherokee in October. They will be falling over themselves to sell cars right now.


----------



## vadsy

colchar said:


> I've been kicking myself for buying the Cherokee in October. They will be falling over themselves to sell cars right now.


Hopefully you got the extended warranty


----------



## boyscout

colchar said:


> I'll believe it when Costco or a real news source says it, not when Red Flag Deals does, and even that source claimed that it was not a uniform policy. I asked when I was in there yesterday (wanted to know so that I could plan when to go get my TV) and was told they were not doing that.


It would be great if Costco got on top of this story that it's going to require masks. There have been a few reports of it, and as recently as yesterday some denials of it.

To further complicate the story, I called the Costco store in Barrie, Ontario on Wednesday past to ask about shopping hours for seniors. The Costco web site indicated that starting May 4th the company would offer seniors' shopping from 8am to 9am... didn't say anything about masks. However we knew seniors have been shopping there TueWedThu from 7:30 - 9:00 for weeks so I called for clarification.

The woman who answered the phone confirmed that the 7:30 seniors' hours have been available for a while, *and then mentioned that starting May 4th they would require masks in the store*. She was unaware of the contradiction between the web site information and the information she was giving me.

Maybe someone at Costco will awaken and get this story on track.


----------



## colchar

boyscout said:


> I called the Costco store in Barrie, Ontario on Wednesday past
> 
> . . .
> 
> The woman who answered the phone



Your local Costco answered the phone? How the fuck did you manage that????????????


----------



## boyscout

colchar said:


> Your local Costco answered the phone? How the fuck did you manage that????????????


First call attempt, two rings after selecting "Administration" from the voicemail menu, on a Wednesday early afternoon.

I didn't know it should have been a problem... I'll buy lottery tickets now.

Maybe your Costco has call display, knows you're calling, and staff is saying, "No, not listening to that guy with the weird accent whine about his broken TV AGAIN!"


----------



## colchar

boyscout said:


> First call attempt, two rings after selecting "Administration" from the voicemail menu, on a Wednesday early afternoon.
> 
> I didn't know it should have been a problem... I'll buy lottery tickets now.
> 
> Maybe your Costco has call display, knows you're calling, and staff is saying, "No, not listening to that guy with the weird accent whine about his broken TV AGAIN!"



I've only ever tried calling the Brampton location, and that was a pointless endeavour. I wonder if I could get through to another local warehouse?


----------



## allthumbs56

boyscout said:


> First call attempt, two rings after selecting "Administration" from the voicemail menu, on a Wednesday early afternoon.
> 
> I didn't know it should have been a problem... I'll buy lottery tickets now.
> 
> Maybe your Costco has call display, knows you're calling, and staff is saying, "No, not listening to that guy with the weird accent *whinge* about his broken TV AGAIN!"


Fixed. We don't want anyone thinking Colchar is from South Carolina.


----------



## High/Deaf

Wardo said:


> Prof that I had for Taxation used to be half in the bag for the Thursday afternoon class because he’d down a few at lunch time. He carried his lecture notes in the plastic liquor store bags that they had then. He had brains to burn though and could run complex math calculations in his head even when slightly pissed.


He's in very good company:

_Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
who was very rarely stable.
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
who could think you under the table.

David Hume could out-consume
Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel.

And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.

There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya
'bout the raising of the wrist,
Socrates, himself, was permanently pissed.

John Stuart Mill, of his own free will,
On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill.

Plato, they say, could stick it away,
Half a crate of whiskey every day.

Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
And Hobbes was fond of his dram.



And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart,
"I drink, therefore I am."

Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed,
A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed.
_


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Canadians 'expect things to get ugly,' think more pandemic aid needed: Nanos


----------



## mhammer

High/Deaf said:


> He's in very good company:
> 
> _Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
> who was very rarely stable.
> Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
> who could think you under the table.
> 
> David Hume could out-consume
> Wilhelm Freidrich Hegel.
> 
> And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
> who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.
> 
> There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya
> 'bout the raising of the wrist,
> Socrates, himself, was permanently pissed.
> 
> John Stuart Mill, of his own free will,
> On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill.
> 
> Plato, they say, could stick it away,
> Half a crate of whiskey every day.
> 
> Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle,
> And Hobbes was fond of his dram.
> 
> 
> 
> And Rene Descartes was a drunken fart,
> "I drink, therefore I am."
> 
> Yes, Socrates himself is particularly missed,
> A lovely little thinker, but a bugger when he's pissed._


Loses a bit without Eric Idle's accent, but still fun.


----------



## mhammer

As much as it appears rational for some places to be loosening up and allowing some forms of recreation and business to occur, within guidelines, I worry that it creates undue pressure for things to proceed a little _too_ quickly, and many will suffer the consequences. There's a little too much "But Stacy's dad said *she* could go on the ski trip! Why can't I? You're so mean!! You're ruining my life!!" for my liking, and for everyone's benefit. Some folks never lose that 16 year-old mindframe.


----------



## mhammer

My wife felt like pizza last night. Normally, I'd make it from scratch but, you know, no yeast. So she ordered it from a local take-out place and I was sent to pick it up. The kitchen had about 10 or more employees at close quarters, bumping into each other, frantically answer the phones and scattering toppings on crusts. Nobody had a mask on in the place, except me. Only a few had gloves, on a single hand, for picking up wet toppings. As I waited, about a half-dozen other customers came in. Again, no masks, no gloves, minimal to moderate distance. None of the people handing orders to customers wore any protection, either. You have to wonder.

As I've said here, time and again, much of the misery in the world begins with "But I was just going/trying to...". Human evaluation of risk is generally flawed.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

mhammer said:


> My wife felt like pizza last night. Normally, I'd make it from scratch but, you know, no yeast. So she ordered it from a local take-out place and I was sent to pick it up. The kitchen had about 10 or more employees at close quarters, bumping into each other, frantically answer the phones and scattering toppings on crusts. Nobody had a mask on in the place, except me. Only a few had gloves, on a single hand, for picking up wet toppings. As I waited, about a half-dozen other customers came in. Again, no masks, no gloves, minimal to moderate distance. None of the people handing orders to customers wore any protection, either. You have to wonder.
> 
> As I've said here, time and again, much of the misery in the world begins with "But I was just going/trying to...". Human evaluation of risk is generally flawed.


Pretty much what I have been witnessing everywhere we go, which is not to often at all. Drug store, grocery that's about it.


----------



## keto

GuitarsCanada said:


> Pretty much what I have been witnessing everywhere we go, which is not to often at all. Drug store, grocery that's about it.


I haven't been out much, but same. Post office (nobody, in a Shopper's, with mask), bank (didn't go in due to an hour-ish looking lineup outside, 1 person with mask), grocery store the other day I was in the vast minority with one on.


----------



## Electraglide

And life, here, seems to be getting back to normal. The sun is shining and it's warm, the birds are singing.....and some idiot fired up his lawnmower at about 6:30 this morning. They've opened up some of the trails and parks so there's been a lot of vehicles with quads and bikes etc. in the back. Some of the stores that are open have line ups and some don't. Some restrict how many people go in and some don't. Two of the Home Depot's parking lots I saw today were packed and so was a Canadian Tire. A Costco I went by on the bus had a full parking lot and a line up but no sign of everyone wearing a mask. And being a sunny Saturday there was quite a lot of old iron.....both 2 wheeled and 4.....out and about. Quite a few convertibles with tops down too. There's a new Seafood Supermarket just opened today.....I'll have to go there soon and some of the stores I walked by had employees inside getting the places ready for opening. And, being that time of year the city has some of the C-train shut down and is doing road work. Yup, everything is getting back to normal.....thank the dog.


----------



## Jim DaddyO




----------



## iamthehub

The nursing home my dad just passed away at has 237 beds... 

They have 184 infected cases and 21 deaths as of May 2. 

Thats a 78% infection rate... 

I'm hoping what I read was a typo. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## GuitarsCanada

The wife just got hired on at the hospital. They hired a bunch for environmental services. Basically cleaning covid 19 off the walls and collecting and getting rid of gowns, masks etc etc. 

We have to move on from the shop or eventually go broke. Pay is good about 26 clams an hour. Could lead to permanent as well. We are hoping they are up to speed on PPE and give her proper protection.


----------



## Guitar101

GuitarsCanada said:


> The wife just got hired on at the hospital. They hired a bunch for environmental services. Basically cleaning covid 19 off the walls and collecting and getting rid of gowns, masks etc etc.
> 
> We have to move on from the shop or eventually go broke. Pay is good about 26 clams an hour. Could lead to permanent as well. We are hoping they are up to speed on PPE and give her proper protection.


Geez. She's on the front line now. Hoping nothing but the best for your family.


----------



## mhammer

iamthehub said:


> The nursing home my dad just passed away at has 237 beds...
> 
> They have 184 infected cases and 21 deaths as of May 2.
> 
> Thats a 78% infection rate...
> 
> I'm hoping what I read was a typo.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I hope so, too.
Can they open their windows, or is it a "sealed" air system?


----------



## davetcan

mhammer said:


> Loses a bit without Eric Idle's accent, but still fun.


I read it with his accent so it's all good!


----------



## mhammer

Boom, boom. Every one a Masserati!


----------



## iamthehub

mhammer said:


> I hope so, too.
> Can they open their windows, or is it a "sealed" air system?


Their windows do open, it's an older facility and then don't have air conditioning. 

I feel so bad for the workers. Despite my father not making it thru this outbreak, I know they did the best they could given the circumstances. 

Their staff are so friendly and always had smiles when we visited my dad. I hope they get through this with minimal emotional baggage. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## iamthehub

GuitarsCanada said:


> The wife just got hired on at the hospital. They hired a bunch for environmental services. Basically cleaning covid 19 off the walls and collecting and getting rid of gowns, masks etc etc.
> 
> We have to move on from the shop or eventually go broke. Pay is good about 26 clams an hour. Could lead to permanent as well. We are hoping they are up to speed on PPE and give her proper protection.


May God watch over her and all front line staff. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## _Azrael

iamthehub said:


> Their windows do open, it's an older facility and then don't have air conditioning.
> 
> I feel so bad for the workers. Despite my father not making it thru this outbreak, I know they did the best they could given the circumstances.
> 
> Their staff are so friendly and always had smiles when we visited my dad. I hope they get through this with minimal emotional baggage.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I think this brings up a point as they’re forgotten victims in all this, and as the ones that’ll likely take the brunt of the blame and finger pointing it’s a double tragedy.


----------



## colchar

iamthehub said:


> The nursing home my dad just passed away at has 237 beds...
> 
> They have 184 infected cases and 21 deaths as of May 2.
> 
> Thats a 78% infection rate...
> 
> I'm hoping what I read was a typo.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



That sounds very close to the stats that I heard for a home on last night's news.


----------



## mhammer

The Ottawa-area-developed rapid antibody test has been sidelined by Health Canada for the time being. It's not the accuracy of the test apparatus itself, but rather the swabs used to obtain the samples for analysis. Apparently they are optimized for oral samples and do not reach those places in the nasal passages that provide more representative samples; accurate analysis of unrepresentative samples yields misleading information. In response, HC approved it for research purposes but not clinical diagnosis. The manufacturers and others are working on the swab issue, and hopefully it will be rectified soon.

A disappointing setback, at a time when timeliness is crucial, but the fact that it was even available this year is near miraculous.


----------



## Milkman

iamthehub said:


> The nursing home my dad just passed away at has 237 beds...
> 
> They have 184 infected cases and 21 deaths as of May 2.
> 
> Thats a 78% infection rate...
> 
> I'm hoping what I read was a typo.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And yet there are still heroes telling us it's no worse than the flu.

Personally I'm deeply saddened by the numbers of our seniors who have succumbed and will continue to fall to this terrible sickness.

Dying in a hospital bed gasping for breath without the comfort of loved ones at your side...…

What a nightmare.


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> And yet there are still heroes telling us it's no worse than the flu.
> 
> Personally I'm deeply saddened by the numbers of our seniors who have succumbed and will continue to fall to this terrible sickness.
> 
> Dying in a hospital bed gasping for breath without the comfort of loved ones at your side...…
> 
> What a nightmare.


Here in Ab. if you're in "end of life stages" (2 weeks prior) you're allowed 2 visitors at a time. They don't have that in ont. or que. I guess.


----------



## butterknucket

My uncle passed away in hospice from cancer on March 25. I believe at least two weeks prior to that, only his wife could be with him. His kids couldn't even be there.


----------



## Electraglide

butterknucket said:


> My uncle passed away in hospice from cancer on March 25. I believe at least two weeks prior to that, only his wife could be with him. His kids couldn't even be there.


Sorry about that. Here it seems visitors can switch off.


----------



## butterknucket

Electraglide said:


> Sorry about that. Here it seems visitors can switch off.


Thanks.

We haven't even been able to have a funeral for him.

We were able to gather for his burial, as long as it was only family and we all stayed six feet apart. Just a few days afterwards we wouldn't have even been able to do that. 

He asked me to be a pall bearer.


----------



## butterknucket

Any word on when things will start fully opening up again in Ontario?


----------



## zdogma

I know the NCC in Ottawa and QC is going to start relaxing restrictions on the parks and stuff on May 8th, so I would assume that will be when the first step will start. That said, sometimes the NCC and the Ontario govt are on different pages.


----------



## colchar

Milkman said:


> And yet there are still heroes telling us it's no worse than the flu.



The mortality rate from the flu is 0.1%. According to researchers at Stanford, the mortality rate for Covid-19 is 0.1%-0.2%.

The infection rate in Canada is currently 0.15% of the population.


----------



## keto

colchar said:


> The mortality rate from the flu is 0.1%. According to researchers at Stanford, the mortality rate for Covid-19 is 0.1%-0.2%.
> 
> The infection rate in Canada is currently 0.15% of the population.


If you're talking about Dr Atlas of Stanford, he's not a virus researcher. His recent writings are opinion pieces, that's why I put them in the DARK PLACE not here. Other than that, would love to see that data!

Aaaaaaaand we have zero clue what population infection rate is. Everyone (or a sample size large enough to be statistically meaningful, which would be REALLY hard given our population density) would have to have antibody testing first.


----------



## _Azrael

colchar said:


> The mortality rate from the flu is 0.1%. According to researchers at Stanford, the mortality rate for Covid-19 is 0.1%-0.2%.
> 
> The infection rate in Canada is currently 0.15% of the population.


I’m not a mathematician, but plugging the numbers in for the US has it pegged around 5.86%.


65,735 / 1,122,486 x 100 = 5.85619776%

(Source: US CDC Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in the U.S. )

Maybe I did that wrong, I’m open to someone explaining it to me...


----------



## GuitarsCanada

butterknucket said:


> Any word on when things will start fully opening up again in Ontario?


Fully opening? I can't see that happening anytime this year


----------



## colchar

keto said:


> If you're talking about Dr Atlas of Stanford, he's not a virus researcher. His recent writings are opinion pieces, that's why I put them in the DARK PLACE not here. Other than that, would love to see that data!


He is a neuroradiologist, but he didn't do the research he merely commented on it.





> Aaaaaaaand we have zero clue what population infection rate is. Everyone (or a sample size large enough to be statistically meaningful, which would be REALLY hard given our population density) would have to have antibody testing first.


I am sure a group of researchers at an institution like Stanford would have taken that into account.


----------



## colchar

_Azrael said:


> I’m not a mathematician, but plugging the numbers in for the US has it pegged around 5.86%.
> 
> 
> 65,735 / 1,122,486 x 100 = 5.85619776%
> 
> (Source: US CDC Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in the U.S. )
> 
> Maybe I did that wrong, I’m open to someone explaining it to me...



The population of the US is 328.2 million and there are 1.19 million confirmed cases. So 1.19 million out of 328.2 million is an infection rate of 0.36%. Of those 1.19 million confirmed cases there have been 68,678 deaths. So 68,678 deaths out of 1.19 million confirmed cases is a mortality rate of 5.77%. But that is just doing math based on the reported numbers. That math is far off what the experts are saying.


Here is the stuff I referred to earlier. I am not an expert on this stuff, so am merely passing along what experts do say.



The data is in — stop the panic and end the total isolation


_The recent Stanford University antibody study now estimates that the fatality rate if infected is likely 0.1 to 0.2 percent, a risk far lower than previous World Health Organization estimates that were 20 to 30 times higher and that motivated isolation policies. 

In New York City, an epicenter of the pandemic with more than one-third of all U.S. deaths, the rate of death for people 18 to 45 years old is 0.01 percent, or 10 per 100,000 in the population. On the other hand, people aged 75 and over have a death rate 80 times that. For people under 18 years old, the rate of death is zero per 100,000. 

Of all fatal cases in New York state, two-thirds were in patients over 70 years of age; more than 95 percent were over 50 years of age; and about 90 percent of all fatal cases had an underlying illness. Of 6,570 confirmed COVID-19 deaths fully investigated for underlying conditions to date, 6,520, or 99.2 percent, had an underlying illness. If you do not already have an underlying chronic condition, your chances of dying are small, regardless of age. And young adults and children in normal health have almost no risk of any serious illness from COVID-19.


_
Here is a link to the study to which he refers:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1.full.pdf


----------



## zdogma

colchar said:


> The mortality rate from the flu is 0.1%. According to researchers at Stanford, the mortality rate for Covid-19 is 0.1%-0.2%.
> 
> The infection rate in Canada is currently 0.15% of the population.


Good that you brought that up. Those studies are methodological disasters, and almost certainly dramatically underestimate mortality. They were released around the time that John Ioannidis started spouting on about this being no worse that the flu. The overall depth rates in almost every country are almost double what they should be and still rising. Overall deaths are the ultimate hard endpoint (they account for other virus related factors, undiagnosed cases), you cant spin that.

Why experts are questioning two hyped antibody studies in coronavirus hotspots


----------



## zdogma

colchar said:


> The population of the US is 328.2 million and there are 1.19 million confirmed cases. So 1.19 million out of 328.2 million is an infection rate of 0.36%. Of those 1.19 million confirmed cases there have been 68,678 deaths. So 68,678 deaths out of 1.19 million confirmed cases is a mortality rate of 5.77%. But that is just doing math based on the reported numbers. That math is far off what the experts are saying.
> 
> 
> Here is the stuff I referred to earlier. I am not an expert on this stuff, so am merely passing along what experts do say.
> 
> 
> 
> The data is in — stop the panic and end the total isolation
> 
> 
> _The recent Stanford University antibody study now estimates that the fatality rate if infected is likely 0.1 to 0.2 percent, a risk far lower than previous World Health Organization estimates that were 20 to 30 times higher and that motivated isolation policies.
> 
> In New York City, an epicenter of the pandemic with more than one-third of all U.S. deaths, the rate of death for people 18 to 45 years old is 0.01 percent, or 10 per 100,000 in the population. On the other hand, people aged 75 and over have a death rate 80 times that. For people under 18 years old, the rate of death is zero per 100,000.
> 
> Of all fatal cases in New York state, two-thirds were in patients over 70 years of age; more than 95 percent were over 50 years of age; and about 90 percent of all fatal cases had an underlying illness. Of 6,570 confirmed COVID-19 deaths fully investigated for underlying conditions to date, 6,520, or 99.2 percent, had an underlying illness. If you do not already have an underlying chronic condition, your chances of dying are small, regardless of age. And young adults and children in normal health have almost no risk of any serious illness from COVID-19.
> 
> 
> _
> Here is a link to the study to which he refers:
> 
> https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.14.20062463v1.full.pdf


Yeah. This just doesn’t jive with what we’re seeing. That’s the main counter argument to this study. You can spin stats, but you can’t spin the fact that every ICU bed and ventilator in Italy was occupied for 2 months, and overall population mortality is doubled. That has never happened with a flu outbreak. Not once. Ever.


----------



## colchar

zdogma said:


> Yeah. This just doesn’t jive with what we’re seeing. That’s the main counter argument to this study. You can spin stats, but you can’t spin the fact that every ICU bed and ventilator in Italy was occupied for 2 months, and overall population mortality is doubled. That has never happened with a flu outbreak. Not once. Ever.



Yes it has - with the Spanish Flu.

But why would university researchers be spinning stats? Their work could easily be debunked if they were to do that.

ETA: See below.


----------



## colchar

zdogma said:


> Good that you brought that up. Those studies are methodological disasters, and almost certainly dramatically underestimate mortality. They were released around the time that John Ioannidis started spouting on about this being no worse that the flu. The overall depth rates in almost every country are almost double what they should be and still rising. Overall deaths are the ultimate hard endpoint (they account for other virus related factors, undiagnosed cases), you cant spin that.
> 
> Why experts are questioning two hyped antibody studies in coronavirus hotspots



Just read the info you linked (I can't believe I read something published in the fucking _Guardian_!) and yeah, those studies do seem to be messed up.


----------



## Doug Gifford

*Coronavirus: Amazon vice-president quits over virus firings*
A vice-president at Amazon has quit "in dismay" at the internet giant's crackdown on workers who criticised it over coronavirus safety measures.

Tim Bray described the firing of protesters as "evidence of a vein of toxicity running through the company culture".

Amazon vice-president quits over virus firings


----------



## zdogma

As usual the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. I think mortality is probably lower than the 3-5% that is quoted based on observed cases but almost certainly higher than seasonal flu.

You're quite right about Spanish Flu (which was H1N1-swine flu), that was something else altogether. Hard to imagine that H1N1 is now a commonplace infection with similar death rates etc as other seasonal flu strains. Probably the same will happen with novel coronaviruses in time...


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Some possible hope?

Scientists create antibody that defeats coronavirus in lab - BNN Bloomberg


----------



## mhammer

butterknucket said:


> Any word on when things will start fully opening up again in Ontario?


This is a very contentious phrase, and one of the biggest sources of risk, for the near future. Sadly, there are far too many who perceive this as "everything goes back to how life was lived before January". They will assume that nothing needs masks, gloves, alcohol wiping, or social distancing of any degree. Happily, there won't be hordes of such persons, but it doesn't take many idiots to spread a disease.

Provinces will roll out different sorts of "loosenings", but they will all have caveats and limits attached to them. The limits will certainly be loosened further, as we move into the autumn, and as we gain data that provides some assurance the loosening is justified. But don't get _too_ comfortable. Ask yourself how many kids at your school who came down with measles, or how many coworkers at your workplace coming down with TB, would you tolerate before refusing to send your kid to school or show up for work. The answer is probably MANY less than are struck by this virus at the present time.



colchar said:


> Just read the info you linked (I can't believe I read something published in the fucking _Guardian_!) and yeah, those studies do seem to be messed up.


The reality is that, every year, papers are submitted to journals from the most prestigious institutions on earth, and they get rejected by peer review, because the investigators didn't control or adjust for this and that, and the conclusions they drew are unwarranted. The investigators weren't trying to hoodwink anyone. They just overlooked something critical in their enthusiasm. Even otherwise brilliant people click on "I agree" for the EULA, before reading it.


----------



## _Azrael

GuitarsCanada said:


> Some possible hope?
> 
> Scientists create antibody that defeats coronavirus in lab - BNN Bloomberg


I’m generally wary of reporters trying to fill up content with whatever they can get their hands on.

When the solution is found I’ll celebrate. Until then, it’s just click bait meant to sell advertising.


----------



## mhammer

RE: The Scott Atlas piece
He declares "Vital population immunity is prevented by total isolation policies, prolonging the problem." As I keep repeating, the current world record for immunity is _maybe_ 5 months, because nobody in the world knew buggerall about the disease prior to December (i.e., it hadn't been identified). We have absolutely NO idea how long immunity lasts for, and "herd immunity" depends fundamentally on long-duration immunity in individuals. If my immunity lasts for 4 months before it tapers off and I become susceptible to a slightly mutated version of that virus, then I contribute NOTHING to herd immunity. 

Keep in mind that the outbreaks of measles and polio that have happened in different parts of the world in the last few years, have occurred because of popular rejection of vaccination, _for diseases we know can have long-lasting immunities created by vaccination_. Those specific pockets of popular anti-vaxing have compromised the herd immunity possibilities. Everyone's fingers are crossed that Covid-19 behaves in a manner similar to such diseases, making the development of vaccines and establishment of herd immunity possible, but there are plenty of viruses that do not conform to those characteristics, and for whom individual and herd immunity remain elusive. 

IF we had several years worth of research on this virus, we might be in a strong position to make inferences about what does and doesn't impede herd immunity. But it's all so new and unknown that this guy is blowing smoke out his ass with respect to what we can know for certain.


----------



## keto

mhammer said:


> RE: The Scott Atlas piece
> He declares "Vital population immunity is prevented by total isolation policies, prolonging the problem." As I keep repeating, the current world record for immunity is _maybe_ 5 months, because nobody in the world knew buggerall about the disease prior to December (i.e., it hadn't been identified). We have absolutely NO idea how long immunity lasts for, and "herd immunity" depends fundamentally on long-duration immunity in individuals. If my immunity lasts for 4 months before it tapers off and I become susceptible to a slightly mutated version of that virus, then I contribute NOTHING to herd immunity.
> 
> Keep in mind that the outbreaks of measles and polio that have happened in different parts of the world in the last few years, have occurred because of popular rejection of vaccination, _for diseases we know can have long-lasting immunities created by vaccination_. Those specific pockets of popular anti-vaxing have compromised the herd immunity possibilities. Everyone's fingers are crossed that Covid-19 behaves in a manner similar to such diseases, making the development of vaccines and establishment of herd immunity possible, but there are plenty of viruses that do not conform to those characteristics, and for whom individual and herd immunity remain elusive.
> 
> IF we had several years worth of research on this virus, we might be in a strong position to make inferences about what does and doesn't impede herd immunity. But it's all so new and unknown that this guy is blowing smoke out his ass with respect to what we can know for certain.



Agreed, and THAT is why I posted it in political, with disclaimers. His work is opinion pieces not science.


----------



## butterknucket

Well wish me luck....

I have to go to an emergency dental clinic out of town.


----------



## allthumbs56

_Azrael said:


> I’m not a mathematician, but plugging the numbers in for the US has it pegged around 5.86%.
> 
> 
> 65,735 / 1,122,486 x 100 = 5.85619776%
> 
> (Source: US CDC Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) in the U.S. )
> 
> Maybe I did that wrong, I’m open to someone explaining it to me...


And Canada:

3682/59474 = 6%


----------



## mhammer

_Azrael said:


> I’m generally wary of reporters trying to fill up content with whatever they can get their hands on.
> 
> When the solution is found I’ll celebrate. Until then, it’s just click bait meant to sell advertising.


In general, newspapers and news media sites have reduced the number of reporters, and can often have folks who don't have a strong enough science background to both report on things accurately and clearly, as well as provide cogent challenge in their pieces.

As I have previously, I will recommend this particular broadcast from the Australian public broadcaster. The host is everything you wish for in a science&medicine reporter. Episodes And, as you might imagine, the show is pretty much, all Covid-19, all the time, these days.


----------



## allthumbs56

keto said:


> Agreed, and *THAT is why I posted it in political*, with disclaimers. His work is opinion pieces not science.


You did your job and followed the rules ...................... Yet here we are talking about it HERE 

You'll find my opinion over THERE


----------



## vadsy

butterknucket said:


> Well wish me luck....
> 
> I have to go to an emergency dental clinic out of town.


this is why it’s important to floss


----------



## Electraglide

Just a little "flu" info.
Asian Flu (1957 Influenza Pandemic)
This is the 4th "flu pandemic" I've been in.


----------



## Electraglide

allthumbs56 said:


> And Canada:
> 
> 3682/59474 = 6%


Seems more than half those deaths are over 80 and in care homes. 
COVID-19 pandemic in Canada - Wikipedia


butterknucket said:


> Well wish me luck....
> 
> I have to go to an emergency dental clinic out of town.


Someone can probably come up with some whiskey and vise grips.


----------



## butterknucket

vadsy said:


> this is why it’s important to floss


I do


----------



## butterknucket

Electraglide said:


> Seems more than half those deaths are over 80 and in care homes.
> COVID-19 pandemic in Canada - Wikipedia
> 
> Someone can probably come up with some whiskey and vise grips.


I'd prefer to avoid that.


----------



## boyscout

colchar said:


> The mortality rate from the flu is 0.1%. According to researchers at Stanford, the mortality rate for Covid-19 is 0.1%-0.2%.
> 
> The infection rate in Canada is currently 0.15% of the population.


We don't know what the true number of infections is, *not even close*, because not nearly enough testing has been done to establish that.

Let's play with the math; it's a bit spurious but not entirely so.

Using round numbers, say that by the end of this week we'll have (over) 60,000 confirmed cases and 4,000 deaths in Canada. That's already a mortality rate of 6.67% and hundreds more will die even if there are no new infections, which is unlikely.

The real mortality rate isn't nearly that high. Stanford after studying countries that did a much better job of testing and finding sick people says it's 0.2%. If we work backward from that number then Canada may have actually had about TWO MILLION infections to date. Only 60,000 of them have been identified by our health care system through testing and 4,000 have ended in death but we've had a WHOLE lot more than 60,000 infections. Even if Stanford is wrong by 100% and the mortality rate is double their estimate that still means one million infections in Canada.

Staggering, ain't it? At a million infections, only 60,000 of them confirmed and dealt with in the health care system, it means that 940,000 more people have been infected with this virus and not been identified or treated. Some of those people have ignored / are ignoring warnings - they have/had no idea they were sick - and have been moving around and spreading the virus.

Officials saying that they "don't understand" why community transmission has contributed so much to the statistics of this virus aren't being honest. Community transmission has been and is a big problem because officials haven't identified hundreds of thousands - maybe well over a million - infections, don't know who and where they are, and don't know if those people are acting to avoid spreading it. No wonder they have extended lockdowns for so long and pretended that they "don't understand" how the infection is getting around. Admitting that there may be more than a million people carrying it that they don't know about, can't find, can't quarantine or treat, would be an admission of massive failure on their part.

It's no mystery at all.


----------



## Electraglide

butterknucket said:


> I'd prefer to avoid that.


----------



## keto

Electraglide said:


> Seems more than half those deaths are over 80 and in care homes.
> COVID-19 pandemic in Canada - Wikipedia
> 
> Someone can probably come up with some whiskey and vise grips.


 0.4% <40, 1.2% of deaths <50, 3.2% <60. Totally makes sense.


----------



## colchar

keto said:


> Agreed, and THAT is why I posted it in political, with disclaimers. His work is opinion pieces not science.



But he is a doctor who is basing his opinion on the work of other doctors and scientists. Their work may well be flawed (it seems to be), but he hardly pulled things out of his ass.


----------



## allthumbs56

boyscout said:


> We don't know what the true number of infections is, *not even close*, because not nearly enough testing has been done to establish that.
> 
> Let's play with the math; it's a bit spurious but not entirely so.
> 
> Using round numbers, say that by the end of this week we'll have (over) 60,000 confirmed cases and 4,000 deaths in Canada. That's already a mortality rate of 6.67% and hundreds more will die even if there are no new infections, which is unlikely.
> 
> The real mortality rate isn't nearly that high. Stanford after studying countries that did a much better job of testing and finding sick people says it's 0.2%. If we work backward from that number then Canada may have actually had about TWO MILLION infections to date. Only 60,000 of them have been identified by our health care system through testing and 4,000 have ended in death but we've had a WHOLE lot more than 60,000 infections. Even if Stanford is wrong by 100% and the mortality rate is double their estimate that still means one million infections in Canada.
> 
> Staggering, ain't it? At a million infections, only 60,000 of them confirmed and dealt with in the health care system, it means that 940,000 more people have been infected with this virus and not been identified or treated. Some of those people have ignored / are ignoring warnings - they have/had no idea they were sick - and have been moving around and spreading the virus.
> 
> Officials saying that they "don't understand" why community transmission has contributed so much to the statistics of this virus aren't being honest. Community transmission has been and is a big problem because officials haven't identified hundreds of thousands - maybe well over a million - infections, don't know who and where they are, and don't know if those people are acting to avoid spreading it. No wonder they have extended lockdowns for so long and pretended that they "don't understand" how the infection is getting around. Admitting that there may be more than a million people carrying it that they don't know about, can't find, can't quarantine or treat, would be an admission of massive failure on their part.
> 
> It's no mystery at all.


I've pretty much come to the acceptance that none of the numbers mean anything - even deaths are not being (or are being) accurately attributed to the virus. That leaves me with only one number I consider important. That's me - I'm looking out for Number One.

Everybody else is a potential murderer.


----------



## tomee2

colchar said:


> The mortality rate from the flu is 0.1%. According to researchers at Stanford, the mortality rate for Covid-19 is 0.1%-0.2%.
> 
> The infection rate in Canada is currently 0.15% of the population.



The fact that 0.15% of the population currently has or had it makes no difference on how many people die. The actual mortality rate for this will only be known after it's all over. For now we know that it does kill people of all ages, but mostly those that are older. However, the data is skewed towards older people dying because older people are clustered in care homes, so more older people are getting it than younger people. If we had forced students at a college residence to not leave their dorms, and had them eat in the cafeteria everyday, and we let covid spread throughout them without stopping it we'd be seeing more twenty somethings dying.
It's a new, ongoing disease. The fact that the flu each year does not cause 2000 people per day to die in the US, yet this disease is despite the fact that most people are staying home, has got to tell you right there that this is not the flu.
And no, we didn't all already get it...


----------



## allthumbs56

tomee2 said:


> The fact that 0.15% of the population currently has or had it makes no difference on how many people die. The actual mortality rate for this will only be known after it's all over. For now we know that it does kill people of all ages, but mostly those that are older. However, the data is skewed towards older people dying because older people are clustered in care homes, so more older people are getting it than younger people. If we had forced students at a college residence to not leave their dorms, and had them eat in the cafeteria everyday, and we let covid spread throughout them without stopping it we'd be seeing more twenty somethings dying.
> It's a new, ongoing disease. The fact that the flu each year does not cause 2000 people per day to die in the US, yet this disease is despite the fact that most people are staying home, has got to tell you right there that this is not the flu.
> And no, we didn't all already get it...


An interesting point. All along we've just assumed that the young were not as susceptible, but maybe it actually was that they were kept apart from each other more effectively - especially when compared to the elderly.


----------



## boyscout

allthumbs56 said:


> An interesting point. All along we've just assumed that the young were not as susceptible, but maybe it actually was that they were kept apart from each other more effectively - especially when compared to the elderly.


In a 90-minute drive yesterday we passed TWO fields, twenty minutes apart, in which young men in their late teens or early 20s were playing volleyball (in one field) or rugby (in the other field). We saw both just off the side of regional roads that are patrolled by the OPP, but I guess the young men don't even fear that.

Call me closed-minded but that combined with other stories seen all over makes me question your "kept apart from each other more effectively".


----------



## boyscout

boyscout said:


> Clever indeed, but in the exuberance about this development aren't we missing something?
> 
> The head of Spartan Bioscience is talking about "ramping up" to producing as many as 1.5 million test kits per month. However I haven't seen any report indicating how many of the *machines* necessary to use those tests the company can produce.
> 
> Reports have indicated that 250 machines exist now, most/all of them already purchased by Alberta and Ontario. That's great, but assuming 100% utilization of those machines (very unlikely) that's 250 tests per hour, 6,000 tests per day, 42,000 tests per week. In a country of almost 38 million people it would take over 17 years to test everyone, once. Until there's a vaccination for this thing testing more than once will often be required.
> 
> Spartan's is an exciting development, great that it's a Canadian development, wonderful that Spartan is promising to serve Canadians' needs first, and of course the numbers above will improve in time as machine availability improves. However our worst experience with this virus will (hopefully) be in the next month or two. I'm just guessing, but doesn't it seem unlikely in that time frame that Spartan can produce enough machines to make more than a dent in our huge testing problem?
> 
> The best tool for dealing with this or any virus is testing, knowing who is sick and quarantining them. Testing many times more people per week and legally quarantining those with the virus is the only way to avoid prolonged lock downs of all of us, until there is a vaccination. However I fear that the federal government knows that its abject failure to meet testing requirements is going to be prolonged and that's why it's mobilizing our armed forces to keep us locked down until the fall or longer, as models recently offered by Dr. Theresa Tam indicate will be required. Although she has been wrong in much of the advice she has given us, the current government is continuing to take her advice.
> 
> To date we have had 780 deaths from the virus. The most optimistic projections in her model are that we'll have at least 10,000 more with a good possibility of 20,000 more, and those are the numbers *with* prolonged months-long lockdowns. Compare that to South Korea, stabilized now with a death toll of (today) 222, in a population of 52 million (37% larger than Canada's) or to other countries that have and will suffer very considerably less than Canada from this pandemic.
> 
> It's not "political" to say that this crisis has revealed a HUGE failure of government. Under a succession of political masters, the federal bureaucracy has failed and is failing at it's most basic task: protecting and preserving conditions under which Canadians can live and work to fill their lives as they determine they should be.
> 
> Since the cost of that failure is already significant and may be devastating for virtually every Canadian (except, notably, government workers still enjoying full employment, full pay, and secure comfortable pensions) those defending the bureaucracy and its failings must be suspected of having something to gain by doing so. The Spartan Bioscience testing system is not going to save us.


Follow-up on the Spartan testing system that generated so much excited buzz three weeks ago. The test is proving to be unreliable in real-life conditions and the government is stalling approval and use of it until problems are addressed.

Health Canada bars made-in-Canada COVID-19 test for public use | CBC News


----------



## keto

boyscout said:


> In a 90-minute drive yesterday we passed TWO fields, twenty minutes apart, in which young men in their late teens or early 20s were playing volleyball (in one field) or rugby (in the other field). We saw both just off the side of regional roads that are patrolled by the OPP, but I guess the young men don't even fear that.
> 
> Call me closed-minded but that combined with other stories seen all over makes me question your "kept apart from each other more effectively".


Gotta protect yourself, it's not going to be done for you.


----------



## mhammer

boyscout said:


> Follow-up on the Spartan testing system that generated so much excited buzz three weeks ago. The test is proving to be unreliable in real-life conditions and the government is stalling approval and use of it until problems are addressed.
> 
> Health Canada bars made-in-Canada COVID-19 test for public use | CBC News


_Lin said the swabs couldn't reach far enough into a person's nose to properly test for the virus. 


"So what happened was that their swab is for your mouth. Therefore, it cannot fit all the way up into your nose, and you have to actually go pretty high up in the nose," the doctor said. "Their swab systems are not able to pick up everything."_

The issue is with the swabs, and not with the box or the actual test. As I noted earlier, it's the sample/specimen collected _for_ the test that is insufficient to be a reliable indicator. That CAN be remedied, just not today or tomorrow.


----------



## davetcan

I'm struggling to understand why this was approved in lab testing? The swab used was exactly the same as the one they're now saying "isn't long enough". It was never designed to reach all the way up into the back of the nose, that was one of it's initial selling features. Something that could be done by personnel without the training necessary to reach all the way back for a specimen. If it was good enough in the lab gathering samples from the throat and front of the nose, it should be good enough now.





mhammer said:


> _Lin said the swabs couldn't reach far enough into a person's nose to properly test for the virus.
> 
> 
> "So what happened was that their swab is for your mouth. Therefore, it cannot fit all the way up into your nose, and you have to actually go pretty high up in the nose," the doctor said. "Their swab systems are not able to pick up everything."_
> 
> The issue is with the swabs, and not with the box or the actual test. As I noted earlier, it's the sample/specimen collected _for_ the test that is insufficient to be a reliable indicator. That CAN be remedied, just not today or tomorrow.


----------



## mhammer

Not necessarily. Let's say you have known samples/specimens as well as control specimens. You run them through the machine and find that your hit rate (i.e., correct identification of virus samples AS virus samples) is damn near perfect, and your false positives and false negatives damn near zero. Would you be all confident and excited about the potential for the machine? Probably. Would you have been able to use it with actual patients up to this point? Probably not. Would others be absolutely thrilled and excited about the prospects, based on your test data? You betcha.

It's a small hurdle, Dave. It'll get fixed. I'm sure Spartan and everyone else would like it to be fixed yesterday, but them's the breaks when you're whipping up breakthroughs.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Milkman said:


> Because it at least stops the expectorant from its full distance and speed maybe?
> The reality is that the virus is MUCH smaller in diameter than most of the masks can block including those being used by front line medical workers.
> Again, I am NOT expert in this and would be happy to hear any other opinions on the topic.


This is the best I've read so far: 
Saving Your Health, One Mask at a Time


----------



## Jim DaddyO

A friend of mine from Edmonton says the Cargill plant is reopening. The union is not too keen on it due to safety reasons. She says this plant supplies 1/3 of the Canadian market for beef. 33%.....that is crazy to have so much production dedicated to one site. No one saw any issue with this? That a third of our beef comes from a single source?


----------



## Stephenlouis

The swabs are effective and long enough, we have been using them for years, without concern.


----------



## Stephenlouis

..and if you want to know what it feels like: it reminds me of getting chlorine pool water up my nose. Not fun, but certainly not a big deal. I was NEG.


----------



## keto

Jim DaddyO said:


> A friend of mine from Edmonton says the Cargill plant is reopening. The union is not too keen on it due to safety reasons. She says this plant supplies 1/3 of the Canadian market for beef. 33%.....that is crazy to have so much production dedicated to one site. No one saw any issue with this? That a third of our beef comes from a single source?


It’s only 1 or 2 other plants in AB that bring us up to 80% of Canada’s production or supply. McDonald’s are importing beef, which is not normal.


----------



## Doug Gifford

keto said:


> It’s only 1 or 2 other plants in AB that bring us up to 80% of Canada’s production or supply. McDonald’s are importing beef, which is not normal.


Not that I'm a McDonald's addict but US beef, nope, not on purpose.


----------



## colchar

tomee2 said:


> The fact that 0.15% of the population currently has or had it makes no difference on how many people die.


Of course it does.

Assuming the mortality rate remains constant, the more people who are infected the more who will die. 5% (just to use a random figure for the purposes of discussion) of a million is more than 5% of a hundred thousand.





> It's a new, ongoing disease. The fact that the flu each year does not cause 2000 people per day to die in the US, yet this disease is despite the fact that most people are staying home, has got to tell you right there that this is not the flu.


I never said it was.




> And no, we didn't all already get it...


Nor did I say that.


----------



## Wardo

Stephenlouis said:


> .
> View attachment 309294


Ok, that has convinced me to stay inside for the next year or two and never go out.


----------



## Electraglide

Jim DaddyO said:


> A friend of mine from Edmonton says the Cargill plant is reopening. The union is not too keen on it due to safety reasons. She says this plant supplies 1/3 of the Canadian market for beef. 33%.....that is crazy to have so much production dedicated to one site. No one saw any issue with this? That a third of our beef comes from a single source?


It's been coming from there for years. Cargill High River and Cargill Guelph make up 55% of the beef processing market in Canada. Why is it crazy to have so much production at two sites. A lot better than having a lot of small sites. There's no issue. Among other things if there is a problem you just have one site to shut down. Same with the chicken packing places they've closed in BC.


----------



## Electraglide

keto said:


> It’s only 1 or 2 other plants in AB that bring us up to 80% of Canada’s production or supply. McDonald’s are importing beef, which is not normal.


So, from a sign I saw today, is wallyworld. Apologizing for bringing in meat from the states. I wonder how things are going at Olymel? Haven't seen that much shortage of pork around here yet.


----------



## mhammer

Stephenlouis said:


> The swabs are effective and long enough, we have been using them for years, without concern.
> View attachment 309294


Nope. The swabs used for "regular" tests are not the same as the swabs used for these quick automated tests. The differences may be small, but they are adapted/suited to the mechanics and space available in the Spartan units.

We've all been using the same guitar strings for years, too. But you can't simply stick regular strings on a Floyd Rose tremolo the way you can on a regular Strat tremolo. You have to adapt the ends to fit. The swabs for the Spartan device fit that device but do not consistently reach far enough to obtain specimens with the same thoroughness as "regular" nasal swabs. If I understood correctly, they were apparently developed for oral samples.


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> It's been coming from there for years. Cargill High River and Cargill Guelph make up 55% of the beef processing market in Canada. Why is it crazy to have so much production at two sites. A lot better than having a lot of small sites. There's no issue. Among other things if there is a problem you just have one site to shut down. Same with the chicken packing places they've closed in BC.


I'm not going to wave any flag for veganism, but there seem to be significant outbreaks at a number of meat-packing plants in the U.S. Something about those workplaces and the conditions just seems distressingly hospitable to transmission. Insomuch as the original Wuhan "wet market" IS a kind of meat-processing plant, it's no great surprise how easily transmitted the virus was there. I don't know if it is the degree to which health-codes are or aren't adhered to by individual employees or by management directives, the sorts of folks who work in such places, or the materials the workers come into contact with. The problem is that all those employees go home to their communities, so what looks statistically centered at the plant can eventually become community-wide.


----------



## Milkman




----------



## tomee2

colchar said:


> I never said it was.
> 
> Nor did I say that.


What you were saying, with the previous quote, was that covid was no worse than the flu. The fact that 0.15% are currently infected has little bearing on total deaths because that's going to affected by ultimately how many people in Canada in total get it. We dont know when that'll happen, it could be years. 
You were minimizing this to be on par with the flu. That's just reckless speculation.


----------



## tomee2

boyscout said:


> In a 90-minute drive yesterday we passed TWO fields, twenty minutes apart, in which young men in their late teens or early 20s were playing volleyball (in one field) or rugby (in the other field). We saw both just off the side of regional roads that are patrolled by the OPP, but I guess the young men don't even fear that.
> 
> Call me closed-minded but that combined with other stories seen all over makes me question your "kept apart from each other more effectively".


Living together is much different then playing in a field for a few hours. Constantly touching the same door knobs and elevator buttons and table tops, or breathing indoor air that has everyone's caughs and sneezes floating around for hours is how this spreads.


----------



## tomee2

Doug Gifford said:


> This is the best I've read so far:
> Saving Your Health, One Mask at a Time


Everyone should read that. It's excellent!


----------



## boyscout

tomee2 said:


> Living together is much different then playing in a field for a few hours. Constantly touching the same door knobs and elevator buttons and table tops, or breathing indoor air that has everyone's caughs and sneezes floating around for hours is how this spreads.


Nonsense.

Any one of the two groups of about a dozen young men could be infected, unaware because he had no symptoms (and may not get them), and in the exertion of the game may have puffed clouds of Covid-19-laden air at and around the others playing with him. Suggesting that the games we saw are low-risk is irresponsible - someone silly enough to believe your assertion may be the next person to bring the virus home to his/her family. The games were also illegal, for a reason.

Community spread of the virus by its very nature must occur significantly between people who do NOT live together. A majority of those who do live together are isolated and can only get the virus when one or more of them goes out and gets it from someone they DON'T live with, which could certainly be someone with whom they played volleyball or rugby.

Yesterday, for a reason I haven't yet seen explained, Canada's number of new confirmed cases was pretty much DOUBLE what it has been for more than a week. We've been adding roughly 1,500 cases per day for a while but yesterday's count was just a little under 3,000. Could be an improvement in testing, but it's an illustration that this thing is by NO means over, and every bit of carelessness and flouting the law and the advice to isolate and distance ourselves could be prolonging the problem for everyone.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

I am in the middle of watching this now.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

boyscout said:


> Yesterday, for a reason I haven't yet seen explained, Canada's number of new confirmed cases was pretty much DOUBLE what it has been for more than a week.


Not sure...something you may want to verify....but I think I read that Quebec had some sort of computer glitch that dropped some of the reported numbers. A seeming surge was from them getting caught up correcting the reporting error.


----------



## tomee2

boyscout said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> Any one of the two groups of about a dozen young men could be infected, unaware because he had no symptoms (and may not get them), and in the exertion of the game may have puffed clouds of Covid-19-laden air at and around the others playing with him. Suggesting that the games we saw are low-risk is irresponsible - someone silly enough to believe your assertion may be the next person to bring the virus home to his/her family. The games were also illegal, for a reason.
> 
> Community spread of the virus by its very nature must occur significantly between people who do NOT live together. A majority of those who do live together are isolated and can only get the virus when one or more of them goes out and gets it from someone they DON'T live with, which could certainly be someone with whom they played volleyball or rugby.
> 
> Yesterday, for a reason I haven't yet seen explained, Canada's number of new confirmed cases was pretty much DOUBLE what it has been for more than a week. We've been adding roughly 1,500 cases per day for a while but yesterday's count was just a little under 3,000. Could be an improvement in testing, but it's an illustration that this thing is by NO means over, and every bit of carelessness and flouting the law and the advice to isolate and distance ourselves could be prolonging the problem for everyone.


I never said playing games outside was low risk!
You brought it up.
My point was we don't have dormitories full of 20 year olds to compare mortality rates with older people who are living together in groups, and you brought up playing outside as an example. I agree, people need to social distance. My boys have been in the house for 6 weeks now. I get groceries every 2 weeks. I've been arguing what you just said to me for 2 months here!


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Something to think about, because the medical community is....

With a reduction in the senses of taste and smell being one of the symptoms, is there further neurological damage being done, is it, or can it be permanent or reversible?
They have seen problems with liver function also. Does it affect other organs? How bad? How long?
Will these issues crop up in 20 to 30 years as having an effect on people?

Something to think about, particularly regarding your children. There are still more questions than answers. If you don't know if something is safe, would you go in? Would you send a loved one in? Would you send your kids in? or would you err on the side of caution?


----------



## boyscout

tomee2 said:


> I never said playing games outside was low risk!
> You brought it up.
> My point was we don't have dormitories full of 20 year olds to compare mortality rates with older people who are living together in groups, and you brought up playing outside as an example. I agree, people need to social distance. My boys have been in the house for 6 weeks now. I get groceries every 2 weeks. I've been arguing what you just said to me for 2 months here!


OK, thx, sorry, but if you re-read your note you might agree that it can be read to say that staying at home is a lot more risky than playing the outdoor games we saw.


----------



## High/Deaf

mhammer said:


> I'm not going to wave any flag for veganism, but there seem to be significant outbreaks at a number of meat-packing plants in the U.S. Something about those workplaces and the conditions just seems distressingly hospitable to transmission.


I don't think it's the difference between working with meat and working with vegetables as products, but the way either is processed. I've been in big meat packing facilities, they are massive factories with a lot of people doing handwork in fairly close proximity. I've never seen vegetable processing plants anywhere near that big - perhaps there are some. 

I also think there's a lot more automation in large-scale vegetable production. There are rows of people butchering meat in an assembly line, is there a similar assembly line of people somewhere peeling carrots, remove beans from stocks or shucking corn? It's for the most part done by machines, AFAIK. Fewer people in close contact, fewer transmissions.




> Insomuch as the original Wuhan "wet market" IS a kind of meat-processing plant, it's no great surprise how easily transmitted the virus was there. I don't know if it is the degree to which health-codes are or aren't adhered to by individual employees or by management directives, the sorts of folks who work in such places, or the materials the workers come into contact with. The problem is that all those employees go home to their communities, so what looks statistically centered at the plant can eventually become community-wide.


The virus is easily_ transmitted_ in both places because of close proximity of many workers. But the difference is that at least 4, 5, maybe 6 of these pandemic-like virus' have _come from_ those wet markets (maybe 100's over the centuries). And none from western meat packing plants. That tells us something, I think. The two aren't really comparable in any meaningful way, except for the fact that close proximity leads to more spread. Ask the ex-VP of Amazon - he gets it.


----------



## tomee2

boyscout said:


> OK, thx, sorry, but if you re-read your note you might agree that it can be read to say that staying at home is a lot more risky than playing the outdoor games we saw.


I tend to ignore a few key words at times, and then I send a mixed message. I can see the mixup from what I wrote. English is not jazz!


----------



## keto

High/Deaf said:


> I don't think it's the difference between working with meat and working with vegetables as products, but the way either is processed. I've been in big meat packing facilities, they are massive factories with a lot of people doing handwork in fairly close proximity. I've never seen vegetable processing plants anywhere near that big - perhaps there are some.
> 
> I also think there's a lot more automation in large-scale vegetable production. There are rows of people butchering meat in an assembly line, is there a similar assembly line of people somewhere peeling carrots, remove beans from stocks or shucking corn? It's for the most part done by machines, AFAIK. Fewer people in close contact, fewer transmissions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The virus is easily_ transmitted_ in both places because of close proximity of many workers. But the difference is that at least 4, 5, maybe 6 of these pandemic-like virus' have _come from_ those wet markets (maybe 100's over the centuries). And none from western meat packing plants. That tells us something, I think. The two aren't really comparable in any meaningful way, except for the fact that close proximity leads to more spread. Ask the ex-VP of Amazon - he gets it.


Also, consensus is pretty strong at this point that it didn't come from a wet market.


----------



## Stephenlouis

mhammer said:


> Nope. The swabs used for "regular" tests are not the same as the swabs used for these quick automated tests. The differences may be small, but they are adapted/suited to the mechanics and space available in the Spartan units.
> 
> We've all been using the same guitar strings for years, too. But you can't simply stick regular strings on a Floyd Rose tremolo the way you can on a regular Strat tremolo. You have to adapt the ends to fit. The swabs for the Spartan device fit that device but do not consistently reach far enough to obtain specimens with the same thoroughness as "regular" nasal swabs. If I understood correctly, they were apparently developed for oral samples.



Funny, we are using the same ones we have before this pandemic, sending to lab and having no problems. If you mean the Wyss design, that is not available.


----------



## mhammer

High/Deaf said:


> I don't think it's the difference between working with meat and working with vegetables as products, but the way either is processed. I've been in big meat packing facilities, they are massive factories with a lot of people doing handwork in fairly close proximity. I've never seen vegetable processing plants anywhere near that big - perhaps there are some.
> 
> I also think there's a lot more automation in large-scale vegetable production. There are rows of people butchering meat in an assembly line, is there a similar assembly line of people somewhere peeling carrots, remove beans from stocks or shucking corn? It's for the most part done by machines, AFAIK. Fewer people in close contact, fewer transmissions.
> 
> The virus is easily_ transmitted_ in both places because of close proximity of many workers. But the difference is that at least 4, 5, maybe 6 of these pandemic-like virus' have _come from_ those wet markets (maybe 100's over the centuries). And none from western meat packing plants. That tells us something, I think. The two aren't really comparable in any meaningful way, except for the fact that close proximity leads to more spread. Ask the ex-VP of Amazon - he gets it.


Fair point about the physical proximity of workers. The principle difference between the wet markets and meat-packing plants seems to be the diversity of _live _species. North American slaughterhouses and meat packing plants deal with cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys, lambs, sometimes geese or goats, and not a lot else (very occasionally bison). Wet markets will apparently house, slaughter, and butcher-for-sale a much wider array of species.

A veterinarian in my old language-training class was working at CFIA at the time, and told us we actually had _greater_ risk of e. coli from prepared packaged vegetables (e.g., pre-peeled baby carrots, chopped cabbage for cole slaw, trimmed broccoli) than from most commercially-available meat. I take it he wasn't keen on the procedures involved in the harvesting of vegetables, and steps NOT taken to prevent bacteria from fields working their way into the food supply. That's not to say vegetables are "dangerous". Rather, his comments were regarding the generally perceived _relative_ risk of things like pork products, compared to processed vegetables. ALL food requires safety and hygiene protocols.


----------



## mhammer

Stephenlouis said:


> Funny, we are using the same ones we have before this pandemic, sending to lab and having no problems. If you mean the Wyss design, that is not available.


The swabs used for the Spartan setup are not the same. They are proprietary. Keep in mind that it is designed to provide _rapid_ analysis and results, so the swab is supposed to be physically compatible with the machinery. The swabs you are thinking of would normally be used to wipe a sample onto a petri dish for culturing over the space of several days. The resulting diagnosis comes from what grew during that time. The Spartan setup does not "culture" anything AFAIK, but rather analyses what was gathered in the specimen. And if the swab does not consistently gather _enough_ of a specimen, you can run into false negatives.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Madness. We have been working for 2 days straight on forms, courses, ID, screening, health exams, fittings for masks, training etc etc for this job the wife is supposedly starting next Monday at the hospital. You would think she is getting hired by the CIA. The job offer says temporary through July or when COVID-19 is eradicated. I have news for them, it's not going to be in July or August or Sept or November........... as far as I am concerned I have seen nothing to indicate any end to this as of today. I am even questioning whether they will ever come up with an effective vaccine. If you read between the lines you can clearly see they have no handle on this virus at all right now. Questions continue to emerge as to whether you will ever be protected fully from getting it again once you have gone through round one. It's the worst catastrophe to hit mankind since Jesus was in diapers. The effects on the economy are going to be devastating.


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> I'm not going to wave any flag for veganism, but there seem to be significant outbreaks at a number of meat-packing plants in the U.S. Something about those workplaces and the conditions just seems distressingly hospitable to transmission. Insomuch as the original Wuhan "wet market" IS a kind of meat-processing plant, it's no great surprise how easily transmitted the virus was there. I don't know if it is the degree to which health-codes are or aren't adhered to by individual employees or by management directives, the sorts of folks who work in such places, or the materials the workers come into contact with. The problem is that all those employees go home to their communities, so what looks statistically centered at the plant can eventually become community-wide.


There seems to be a lot of concerns and outbreaks at places like Amazon warehouses too. Anyplace where there are quite a few people in close proximity. It has nothing to do with the meat processing. Some places can close and some can't. As far as the "sorts of people" who work there goes, sounds like the start of a witch hunt almost. From what I understand someone got the virus and then like in other places, it spread. 
30 employees of Calgary Purolator facility test positive for COVID-19


----------



## Electraglide

Jim DaddyO said:


> Not sure...something you may want to verify....but I think I read that Quebec had some sort of computer glitch that dropped some of the reported numbers. A seeming surge was from them getting caught up correcting the reporting error.


Around 1400 or more cases form what was online.


----------



## _Azrael

Electraglide said:


> There seems to be a lot of concerns and outbreaks at places like Amazon warehouses too. Anyplace where there are quite a few people in close proximity. It has nothing to do with the meat processing. Some places can close and some can't. As far as the "sorts of people" who work there goes, sounds like the start of a witch hunt almost. From what I understand someone got the virus and then like in other places, it spread.
> 30 employees of Calgary Purolator facility test positive for COVID-19


The thing I’m noting is the effect of weather on people’s habits.

In Edmonton, everyone was happy to self isolate when it was -20. Once it shot up to +15 everyone started to go outside and congregate in public.

Calgary warmed up before we did, and Ontario warmed up before Alberta. I’m expecting Edmonton to take a bit of a nose dive this week.


----------



## colchar

tomee2 said:


> What you were saying, with the previous quote, was that covid was no worse than the flu.


No, I was not. I simply made a statement of fact regarding mortality and infection rates.

If you hadbothered to read further down the page you would have seen me say "I am not an expert on this stuff, so *am merely passing along what experts do say*."




> You were minimizing this to be on par with the flu. That's just reckless speculation.



No, I wasn't. Stop putting words in my mouth. As I said above I was *merely passing along what experts *said. And as the thread moved along, I conceded that some of the info from those experts was problematic.

I was engaging in discussion, not making claims about who was right or wrong.


----------



## colchar

zdogma said:


> Hard to imagine that H1N1 is now a commonplace infection with similar death rates etc as other seasonal flu strains. Probably the same will happen with novel coronaviruses in time...



Not so sure about that. Covid-19 seems far more problematic and difficult to treat. The fact that it presents differently in different groups (usually by age, but I think also by gender) adds to the difficulty.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Not sure...something you may want to verify....but I think I read that Quebec had some sort of computer glitch that dropped some of the reported numbers. A seeming surge was from them getting caught up correcting the reporting error.



Yes, that is exactly what happened. A glitch resulted in some not being counted and the apparent surge was simply the numbers being corrected.


----------



## Electraglide

_Azrael said:


> The thing I’m noting is the effect of weather on people’s habits.
> 
> In Edmonton, everyone was happy to self isolate when it was -20. Once it shot up to +15 everyone started to go outside and congregate in public.
> 
> Calgary warmed up before we did, and Ontario warmed up before Alberta. I’m expecting Edmonton to take a bit of a nose dive this week.


Yesterday it was a bit breezy when I went out. Waiting for the bus after coming out of wallyworld was a bitch. Frozen rain and a descent wind didn't help much. Could be the weather or it could be people are just getting tired of hiding but there's more traffic on the roads here and more people on transit. Today's supposed to be nice and then wet 'til next Monday according to the weather place. Go figure.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Something to think about, because the medical community is....
> 
> With a reduction in the senses of taste and smell being one of the symptoms, is there further neurological damage being done, is it, or can it be permanent or reversible?
> They have seen problems with liver function also. Does it affect other organs? How bad? How long?
> Will these issues crop up in 20 to 30 years as having an effect on people?
> 
> Something to think about, particularly regarding your children. There are still more questions than answers. If you don't know if something is safe, would you go in? Would you send a loved one in? Would you send your kids in? or would you err on the side of caution?



An altered sense of taste is one of the reasons that I was tested, but I just had both sinus and throat infections so the sense of taste can be affected by other ailments. Is this perhaps another example of Covid-19 mimicking other things?


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Something to think about, because the medical community is....
> 
> With a reduction in the senses of taste and smell being one of the symptoms, is there further neurological damage being done, is it, or can it be permanent or reversible?
> They have seen problems with liver function also. Does it affect other organs? How bad? How long?
> Will these issues crop up in 20 to 30 years as having an effect on people?
> 
> Something to think about, particularly regarding your children. There are still more questions than answers. If you don't know if something is safe, would you go in? Would you send a loved one in? Would you send your kids in? or would you err on the side of caution?



An altered sense of taste is one of the reasons that I was tested, but I just had both sinus and throat infections so the sense of taste can be affected by other ailments. Is this perhaps another example of Covid-19 mimicking other things?


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> There seems to be a lot of concerns and outbreaks at places like Amazon warehouses too. Anyplace where there are quite a few people in close proximity. It has nothing to do with the meat processing. Some places can close and some can't. As far as the "sorts of people" who work there goes, sounds like the start of a witch hunt almost. From what I understand someone got the virus and then like in other places, it spread.
> 30 employees of Calgary Purolator facility test positive for COVID-19


Just to be clear, I wasn't implying anything about the employees specifically. It was more an instance of "Why the hell is this happening, and is there some reason for it we haven't considered yet?". As I've repeated many times, whenever you can't conduct a formal experiment with humans, where something is randomly assigned or imposed on them, and are depending on their exposure/non-exposure to something considered as a causal or risk factor, you _always_ have to ask whether there is any sort of self-selection or selective sampling involved that might explain the observed results.


----------



## Milkman

If a diminished sense of taste is one of the symptoms, I think that points clearly to Tim Hortons as the source of the virus. It's really their only hope.



Too soon?


----------



## Milkman

DP


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> An altered sense of taste is one of the reasons that I was tested, but I just had both sinus and throat infections so the sense of taste can be affected by other ailments. Is this perhaps another example of Covid-19 mimicking other things?



I wish I had an answer to that. I guess no one does at this point. It was just a bit of info I picked up along the way in some reports. Just glad that you (and your mom by extension) are OK.


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> If a diminished sense of taste is one of the symptoms, I think that points clearly to Tim Hortons as the source of the virus. It's really their only hope.
> 
> 
> 
> Too soon?


That and starbucks. There goes your sense of taste and smell.


----------



## colchar

Has anyone else noticed that with India in lockdown all of the fucking scam calls have stopped from people claiming to be from Windows tech support, air duct cleaning companies, the Canada Revenue Agency, etc.? Silver linings eh?


----------



## allthumbs56

Carnival Cruise Lines is setting sail August 1st. Anybody want a cheap cruise?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

allthumbs56 said:


> Carnival Cruise Lines is setting sail August 1st. Anybody want a cheap cruise?


NCL is not going to make it through the year based on the latest updates from the company


----------



## Milkman

In spite of the obvious hotspots aboard so many cruise ships, there would still be plenty of people out there if they were still sailing.

I think there will still be an industry, but this _has_ to have caused some lasting damage.

I know the missus and I have considered a cruise, at least we tossed the idea around in the past. Now? No chance.

Of course, they should react with some sort of technology / countermeasures to try and appease concerns, but we'll see.


----------



## keto

colchar said:


> Has anyone else noticed that with India in lockdown all of the fucking scam calls have stopped from people claiming to be from Windows tech support, air duct cleaning companies, the Canada Revenue Agency, etc.? Silver linings eh?



Too funny, I just got a 'credit card alert' call on my work phone, hadn't had one of those in a couple months and it threw me for a loop for a second.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> Has anyone else noticed that with India in lockdown all of the fucking scam calls have stopped from people claiming to be from Windows tech support, air duct cleaning companies, the Canada Revenue Agency, etc.? Silver linings eh?


Nope, emails, texts and phone calls still come in thru the burner at the same rate and the block list still keeps growing on my regular phone. I'm waiting for another one from Russia. That being said I get a few from Mississauga or at least that's where the number traces to. CRA ones are up right now because people are waiting to see what's happening to their return.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Milkman said:


> In spite of the obvious hotspots aboard so many cruise ships, there would still be plenty of people out there if they were still sailing.
> 
> I think there will still be an industry, but this _has_ to have caused some lasting damage.
> 
> I know the missus and I have considered a cruise, at least we tossed the idea around in the past. Now? No chance.
> 
> Of course, they should react with some sort of technology / countermeasures to try and appease concerns, but we'll see.


I am a veteran of 18 cruises. Thankfully many of them were prior to the takeover by raving drunks and kids. Back then it was a regal experience. Pampered, excellent food. Nowadays on the mainstream lines you are lucky to get any service and with the new ships designed specifically for withdrawing as much cash as possible out of your wallet as they possibly can with massive revenue centers all over the ships, it's a hideous experience. When we started cruising a nice cruise ship was around 60,000 to 80,000 tonne. The Titanic was a 40K tonne ship. Today the average size is about 120K and some are pushing the 180k limit. That's 3000 plus passengers. Impossible to cater to the cruisers in any satisfactory way. We will never cruise again, unless we can someday afford one on an exclusive line with much smaller ships.


----------



## Stephenlouis

The trouble with COVID-19 swabs: The case of Ottawa's Spartan Bioscience | Ottawa Citizen

We do not use them.


----------



## davetcan

mhammer said:


> Nope. The swabs used for "regular" tests are not the same as the swabs used for these quick automated tests. The differences may be small, but they are adapted/suited to the mechanics and space available in the Spartan units.
> 
> We've all been using the same guitar strings for years, too. But you can't simply stick regular strings on a Floyd Rose tremolo the way you can on a regular Strat tremolo. You have to adapt the ends to fit. The swabs for the Spartan device fit that device but do not consistently reach far enough to obtain specimens with the same thoroughness as "regular" nasal swabs. If I understood correctly, they were apparently developed for oral samples.


You're sure it's not some weenie on the Board of Health that refuses to accept that the old way is not the only way?


----------



## Doug Gifford

Milkman said:


> In spite of the obvious hotspots aboard so many cruise ships, there would still be plenty of people out there if they were still sailing.…


I don't think I need to be an expert to say that cruise ships and global air travel had a *lot* to do with the incredibly rapid spread of covid-19. For those to go under will cost many jobs but … closing down "wet markets" and "bush markets" will cost many jobs and nobody seems to care about that (the main caveat seems to be it would be hard to enforce). So I'd say, let them all go under and let's move past allowing the rich (which, in global terms, includes me and most Canadians) to knowingly engage in world-endangering recreational activities.


----------



## Guitar101

GuitarsCanada said:


> Madness. We have been working for 2 days straight on forms, courses, ID, screening, health exams, fittings for masks, training etc etc for this job the wife is supposedly starting next Monday at the hospital. You would think she is getting hired by the CIA. The job offer says temporary through July or when COVID-19 is eradicated. I have news for them, it's not going to be in July or August or Sept or November........... as far as I am concerned I have seen nothing to indicate any end to this as of today. I am even questioning whether they will ever come up with an effective vaccine. If you read between the lines you can clearly see they have no handle on this virus at all right now. Questions continue to emerge as to whether you will ever be protected fully from getting it again once you have gone through round one. It's the worst catastrophe to hit mankind since Jesus was in diapers. The effects on the economy are going to be devastating.


If she wants to do this and it sounds like she does, just work with her through all the BS and send her off on her new job. I agree that this will not be over by the end of July but that may be better kept to yourself. Just give her all the support you can muster up and support her in what she wants to do. If you don't want her to put herself out there then you both need to work that out. I wish both of you nothing but the best in what decision you both make.


----------



## Guitar101

colchar said:


> No, I was not. I simply made a statement of fact regarding mortality and infection rates.
> 
> If you hadbothered to read further down the page you would have seen me say "I am not an expert on this stuff, so *am merely passing along what experts do say*."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, I wasn't. Stop putting words in my mouth. As I said above I was *merely passing along what experts *said. And as the thread moved along, I conceded that some of the info from those experts was problematic.
> 
> I was engaging in discussion, not making claims about who was right or wrong.


Sorry but I must agree that when you pass along something that someone else is saying, you tend agree with it or why else would you pass it along. Just my opinion though.


----------



## Guitar101

Milkman said:


> If a diminished sense of taste is one of the symptoms, I think that points clearly to Tim Hortons as the source of the virus. It's really their only hope.
> 
> 
> 
> Too soon?


Yep. Too soon.


----------



## Guitar101

Geez. Did everyone go for dinner?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Guitar101 said:


> If she wants to do this and it sounds like she does, just work with her through all the BS and send her off on her new job. I agree that this will not be over by the end of July but that may be better kept to yourself. Just give her all the support you can muster up and support her in what she wants to do. If you don't want her to put herself out there then you both need to work that out. I wish both of you nothing but the best in what decision you both make.


I'm a lot more worried about then she is. Not that she is ignoring the reality of it, but she is 12 years younger then me and a hell of lot healthier at this point. She is more worried about giving it to me. She has faith in the PPE and won't take any chances. Plus she knows that the business is pretty much gone now and the pay offered there can't be found everywhere. So we will give it a go.


----------



## laristotle

Guitar101 said:


> Sorry but I must agree that when you pass along something that someone else is saying, you tend agree with it or why else would you pass it along. Just my opinion though.


I do that occasionally as a 'WTF!? You have to read this for yourself.' post.


----------



## colchar

Guitar101 said:


> Sorry but I must agree that when you pass along something that someone else is saying, you tend agree with it or why else would you pass it along. Just my opinion though.



Um, for information purposes? Since when must one agree with everything we pass on? We quote people with whom we disagree in the political section all the time. I didn't realize the rules out here were different and that we could only pass along info from those with whom we agee


----------



## laristotle

colchar said:


> I didn't realize the rules out here were different and that we could only pass along info from those with whom we agee


They are. Otherwise there's the risk of a thread being shut down, locked, deleted or getting oneself banned.


----------



## allthumbs56

davetcan said:


> You're sure it's not some weenie on the Board of Health that refuses to accept that the old way is the only way?


I had read an article the other day that said that the only swabs approved for Covid testing were nylon but now other materials had been approved. I couldn't find the article today and truthfully I have no idea which country this governing body was operating from.


----------



## colchar

tomee2 said:


> My point was we don't have dormitories full of 20 year olds



Actually, it turns out that we do.

I did my B.A. at the University of Waterloo and was just checking something on their webpage. After doing so, I checked their Covid-19 updates out of curiosity and I discovered that its residences are still open. Students were encouraged to go home, but the residences were not closed and people are living in them. I did my Master's down the street at Wilfrid Laurier University so I checked their info out of curiosity, and their residences remained open. Again, students were encouraged to leave but were not required to do so.

Additionally, I decided to check the status of residences at the college at which I am a prof (has nothing to do with me so I didn't pay any attention to residence news when we shut down). It turns out they are open too. Not only that, but anyone who needed to extend their stay past the end of their current contract was able to do so (the winter term ended April 17th and normally students only have a day or two after the end of term to vacate their space in residence).

I only checked three schools and at all three of them residences were still open. It is safe to say that they are probably pretty representative of other schools here in Ontario.

ETA: Since my curiosity was piqued I checked other schools such as the university I attended for my PhD program, U or T (largest university in the country), etc. For every one of them residences are still open.


----------



## Electraglide

laristotle said:


> I do that occasionally as a 'WTF!? You have to read this for yourself.' post.


Today is Tuesday and that makes the next days of the week *WTF!. *


----------



## colchar

I get a shit-ton of scam emails. You know the ones - you have won a lottery from company X, you have inherited X amount, I am on my deathbed and want to give millions to a good Christian like you, etc. Some of them are funny as hell, others are just pathetic. But this is a new one:


_*COVID-19 HELP!!! VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGE !! RESPONSE REQUIRED ASAP!!!*

Attn:

With the onset of the current Corona virus pandemic, and the increasing mortalities the world over, the need to exercise drastic measures is being mandated. With infected cases approaching the million mark and deaths spiraling in tens of thousands with certain cities experiencing over 700 deaths in a single day and counting, it’s obvious that containment and preventive measures so far are not efficient.

Most of these affected nations lack the relevant resources to even detect infected cases , let alone handle such epidemic.

As a result, our office is making a clarion call to all well meaning individuals and to prey on your humanity to lend a helping hand.

This is a global issue and not just one affecting your immediate environment, city or country.

Whilst some government and multinational and fortune 500 companies, are doing their best to assist, the average person in some of these nations have no access to such benefits as most of the donations are being used to purchase medical equipment for testing.

We plead with you to make a donation towards “Eradicating Corona virus” and assisting less privileged people who may have difficulties staying alive with no source of livelihood and even without any means to feed amidst the current pandemic.

Monies realized from this would also be used to provide food, shelter and medical supplies as well as masks and sanitizers for the less privileged and homeless, who are also part of our community.

Disease is no respected of persons. Without a cure, things are expected to get worse, before it gets better. If we must beat corona, we must do it as a team as one body and as a single race - The Human Race.

You might not be a medical professional to help in finding a vaccine or offering special care to those directly in need. But you are not helpless. Your donation could be the power behind these medical professionals in achieving their goal to get a lasting cure, as you assist in preserving and prolonging the human race.

We have handlers in the field to reach out to some of these people and help preserve the human race.

Any donation from you would be well appreciated.

Donation amounts could range from $50 (Enough to get masks/ventilators, hand sanitizers food and medical supplies for at least 2 families) to as much as $5000, (enough to provide supplies for
an entire community)

Donation Amounts: $50 * $100 * $200 * $500 * $1000 * $1500 * $2000 * $3000 * $5000

To make a donation, You can go to any Apple store close to your home address and buy an any google you like or iTunes card for any amount you like scratch it and send me the Photo of the card here so that we will redeem it to cash now okay

State your Name / Organization, and specify the amount you wish to donate in your response email to Mr Smith.

If you want to donate anonymously, just state “anonymous” and the amount you wish to donate.

Regards_


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> prey on your humanity


Well, at least they are somewhat honest...lol


----------



## Dorian2

colchar said:


> our office is making a clarion call to all well meaning individuals and to prey on your humanity


lol

edit - I see jimdadeo mentioned this funny line too.


----------



## Milkman




----------



## boyscout

colchar said:


> _to prey on your humanity to lend a helping hand._





Jim DaddyO said:


> Well, at least they are somewhat honest...lol


I liked the line _*help preserve the human race*. _Makes me feel that a $5000 donation would not be enough, I should give more.

On second thought, if we could start over without preying opportunistic scumbags and lying politicians and bureaucrats (which are all pretty much the same thing) then maybe we shouldn't fight hard to preserve the human race.


----------



## Jim DaddyO




----------



## Milkman

We just decided on one more week of working from home.

I've been going to the office every couple of days when I need to print or scan (I don't have a printer or scanner at home) or to sign documents, but in most cases I have been the only person there at the time.

Next week will be much the same, but we received a shipment of masks, hand sanitizer and spray from Japan so we're at least preparing for a gradual ramp up to "normal" work, whatever that will be.


----------



## mhammer

Something a little lighter (and occasionally more truthful)......

****************************************************************************************

Just asked a 6-year old if he understands why there is no school. He said yes because they are out of toilet paper.

On the bright side, I am no longer calling this shelter-in-place. I am an artist-in-residence.

After years of wanting to thoroughly clean my house but lacking the time, this week I discovered that wasn’t the reason.

You’re not stuck at home, you're safe at home. One word can change your attitude and one cough can change your life.

Coronavirus has turned us all into dogs. We roam the house all day looking for food. We’re told “no” if we get too close to strangers and we get really excited about car rides.

If you thought toilet paper was crazy ... just wait until 300 million people all want a haircut appointment.

2020 is a unique Leap Year. It has 29 days in February, 300 days in March and 5 years in April.

Wearing a mask inside your home is now highly recommended. Not so much to prevent COVID-19 but to stop eating.

If you keep a glass of wine in each hand, you can’t accidentally touch your face.

This cleaning with alcohol is total b.s. NOTHING gets done after that first bottle.

Kinda’ starting to understand why pets try to run out of the house when the door opens.

Does anyone know if we can take showers yet or should we just keep washing our hands???

You think it’s bad now? In 20 years our country will be run by people home schooled by day drinkers….

I swear my fridge just said: “what the hell do you want now?”

Whoever owes you money, go to their house now. They should be home.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Something I asked someone years ago that I think still stands today....


If you don't like being at home,
why do you live there?​


----------



## Electraglide




----------



## _Azrael

Electraglide said:


>


That guy was so square and unconvincing that I now want to believe in the conspiracy.


----------



## Electraglide

_Azrael said:


> That guy was so square and unconvincing that I now want to believe in the conspiracy.


Only in Quebec and seconded only by cell phones causing cancer.


----------



## Dorian2

Cannabis shows promise blocking coronavirus infection: Alberta researcher


----------



## vadsy

Dorian2 said:


> Cannabis shows promise blocking coronavirus infection: Alberta researcher


lol, the inspiration for this was a meme.

head scientist, Dr. Cory G.


----------



## Eric Reesor

This is absolutely nuts! Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: Federal judge enters temporary injunction against Genesis II Church of Health and Healing, preventing sale of Chlorine Dioxide Products Equivalent to Industrial Bleach to Treat COVID-19 This so called church is now threatening a Waco like siege if they are taken down by the feds. It is time to seriously consider a border wall and getting Trump to pay for it.


----------



## keto

vadsy said:


> lol, the inspiration for this was a meme.
> 
> head scientist, Dr. Cory G.


Dunno, it sounds plausible to me. Easy way to make a living, if you can get it.


----------



## Electraglide

Eric Reesor said:


> This is absolutely nuts! Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: Federal judge enters temporary injunction against Genesis II Church of Health and Healing, preventing sale of Chlorine Dioxide Products Equivalent to Industrial Bleach to Treat COVID-19 This so called church is now threatening a Waco like siege if they are taken down by the feds. It is time to seriously consider a border wall and getting Trump to pay for it.


Are they tied into the Westboro Church?


----------



## mhammer

Dorian2 said:


> Cannabis shows promise blocking coronavirus infection: Alberta researcher


Naturally. Weed can cure just about anything. If only weed could "cure" gullibility and stupidity....or the snow that is currently falling on my city....on May 8...as the province declares that garden centres can open up.


----------



## Milkman

This is just my impression but I'm getting a little weary of so many people doing little things to help the Covid-19 situation and seeming to want the "attaboy" and attention for themselves or their company.

I'm grateful and appreciative of those who are truly putting themselves in harms way to help those who are sick and those who are still trying to avoid getting sick.

This clip has nothing to do with Covid-19 but it may serve as an example of what true altruism looks like.


----------



## Dorian2

mhammer said:


> Naturally. Weed can cure just about anything. If only weed could "cure" gullibility and stupidity....or the snow that is currently falling on my city....on May 8...as the province declares that garden centres can open up.


Maybe if everyone in your city grows weed at the same time, the thermal heat created from the plants will help to regulate the temperature. It's also shown that smoking THC increases the bodies metabolic rate, which will also introduce increased temperatures in the city. But this has to be done by everybody at the same time in an enclosed, Steven King type dome to actually show any benefit to the overall population.

Let us know your test results when complete please. It's for the betterment of society.


----------



## boyscout

_Azrael said:


> That guy was so square and unconvincing that I now want to believe in the conspiracy.


Few of us have an ability to determine truth or falsehood by making instantaneous assessments of the sources and declaring on the veracity of all of that they say based on your assessment of the sources. You must be real smart.


----------



## mhammer

Milkman said:


> This is just my impression but I'm getting a little weary of so many people doing little things to help the Covid-19 situation and seeming to want the "attaboy" and attention for themselves or their company.
> 
> I'm grateful and appreciative of those who are truly putting themselves in harms way to help those who are sick and those who are still trying to avoid getting sick.
> 
> This clip has nothing to do with Covid-19 but it may serve as an example of what true altruism looks like.


Big actions are important, but often only arise from happenstance. Like they say, chance favours the prepared mind, and in similar fashion, opportunity favours the motivationally open. But little things DO matter. I also understand that intrinsic motivation (that which comes from simply doing something, and the pleasure of doing it) is sometimes sufficient, and sometimes not enough. Of what course, what suffices to maintain motivation and action varies from person to person. That said, there's a reason why performers, whether musicians, actors, athletes, or leaders often need an audience to deliver their best. Expressions of appreciation energize us and keep us going when we might otherwise stop or simply be less enthusiastic and engaged.

I don't go out much these days, but am always mindful to wish the checkout clerk a terrific day and to stay safe and well. Little things can add up.


----------



## Dorian2

Eric Reesor said:


> This is absolutely nuts! Coronavirus (COVID-19) Update: Federal judge enters temporary injunction against Genesis II Church of Health and Healing, preventing sale of Chlorine Dioxide Products Equivalent to Industrial Bleach to Treat COVID-19 This so called church is now threatening a Waco like siege if they are taken down by the feds. It is time to seriously consider a border wall and getting Trump to pay for it.


Interesting. Found this from a couple years ago as well. Sounds like this group has been at it for a while now. FYI, this group is not confined to the USA. They have outfits here, in Australia, and probably a number of other countries around the world.

'Miracle' tonic event in Calgary prompts probe by Health Canada | CBC News

Seems like it's available online as well in all sorts of form and fashion.

MMS |Miracle Mineral Supplement | Buy MMS CDS & CDS


----------



## Milkman

mhammer said:


> Big actions are important, but often only arise from happenstance. Like they say, chance favours the prepared mind, and in similar fashion, opportunity favours the motivationally open. But little things DO matter. I also understand that intrinsic motivation (that which comes from simply doing something, and the pleasure of doing it) is sometimes sufficient, and sometimes not enough. Of what course, what suffices to maintain motivation and action varies from person to person. That said, there's a reason why performers, whether musicians, actors, athletes, or leaders often need an audience to deliver their best. Expressions of appreciation energize us and keep us going when we might otherwise stop or simply be less enthusiastic and engaged.
> 
> I don't go out much these days, but am always mindful to wish the checkout clerk a terrific day and to stay safe and well. Little things can add up.


And I don't mean to denigrate the efforts of each and every person and company who tries to help others in this situation.

Just don't brag about it.


----------



## mhammer

Milkman said:


> And I don't mean to denigrate the efforts of each and every person and company who tries to help others in this situation.
> 
> Just don't brag about it.


Agreed. And people who do inspiringly great acts of altruism generally don't.


----------



## _Azrael

boyscout said:


> Few of us have an ability to determine truth or falsehood by making instantaneous assessments of the sources and declaring on the veracity of all of that they say based on your assessment of the sources. You must be real smart.



Why are you stalking me?

Why can’t you engage in conversation without making it personal?

Everyone else seems to be able to debate and disagree without resorting to personal attacks, what’s your problem?


----------



## vadsy

_Azrael said:


> Why are you stalking me?
> 
> Why can’t you engage in conversation without making it personal?
> 
> Everyone else seems to be able to debate and disagree without resorting to personal attacks, what’s your problem?


dude is gonna make himself gloves from your skin


----------



## _Azrael

vadsy said:


> dude is gonna make himself gloves from your skin


Edit: Comment deleted.


----------



## laristotle

mhammer said:


> Expressions of appreciation energize us and keep us going when we might otherwise stop or simply be less enthusiastic and engaged.





Milkman said:


> And I don't mean to denigrate the efforts of each and every person and company who tries to help others in this situation.
> 
> Just don't brag about it.





mhammer said:


> Agreed. And people who do inspiringly great acts of altruism generally don't.


What if one will only reach out and be generous with their skills/time for the sake of attention?
Otherwise, they'll reconsider and not do anything at all?


----------



## Milkman

laristotle said:


> What if one will only reach out and be generous with their skills/time for the sake of attention?
> Otherwise, they'll reconsider and not do anything at all?


That's the point. No big deal. I just think it takes more character to do good without the "hey look what a great person I am".


----------



## Lincoln

An observation:

we put an exercise machine on Facebook marketplace before this Covid thing started. Didn't get a single hit on it, nothing. Wife put it up again the other day, and her phone immediately started dinging and wouldn't stop. Sold the same day for more than she was asking, and now she's trying to figure out how to delete about 200 inquiries on it from her messenger.

Now is the time to sell your unused exercise equipment!


----------



## vadsy

Lincoln said:


> An observation:
> 
> we put an exercise machine on Facebook marketplace before this Covid thing started. Did get a single hit on it, nothing. Wife put it up again the other day, and her phone immediately started dinging and wouldn't stop. Sold the same day for more than she was asking, and now she's trying to figure out how to delete about 200 inquiries on it from her messenger.
> 
> Now is the time to sell your unused exercise equipment!


dude running a fitness shop on Argyll was slammed at the start of the lockdown. looked like a going out of business sale but he said the empty portion of the store sold in three days and he hadn't had a chance to bring in more stock. Same thing with bikes, I had bidding wars on the kids old bikes and they were pricier to start


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Lincoln said:


> Now is the time to sell your unused exercise equipment!


They're great for hanging your clothes on....lol


----------



## boyscout

Milkman said:


> This is just my impression but I'm getting a little weary of so many people doing little things to help the Covid-19 situation and seeming to want the "attaboy" and attention for themselves or their company. I'm grateful and appreciative of those who are truly putting themselves in harms way to help those who are sick and those who are still trying to avoid getting sick.


So often a camera and/or microphone happen to be around to help spread the story of their selfless acts.



Milkman said:


> This clip has nothing to do with Covid-19 but it may serve as an example of what true altruism looks like.


Great clip. Playing down accomplishments rather than playing them up used to be seen as noble, polite and admirable; now not so much. Progressive times.


----------



## laristotle

Jim DaddyO said:


> They're great for hanging your clothes on....lol


We have a couple of those expensive coat racks too. lol


----------



## laristotle

Milkman said:


> That's the point. No big deal. I just think it takes more character to do good without the "hey look what a great person I am".


I agree with you, however, there are some that need their egos tended to. And if you need their expertise ..
'Sure, I can help. Will I get on the news? No? Sorry, I don't have the time'.


----------



## Milkman

laristotle said:


> I agree with you, however, there are some that need their egos tended to. And if you need their expertise ..
> 'Sure, I can help. Will I get on the news? No? Sorry, I don't have the time'.


Point taken.

I'm just getting a bit of a snoot full of everybody suddenly being a hero for common decency and/or doing their jobs.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Milkman said:


> Point taken.
> 
> I'm just getting a bit of a snoot full of everybody suddenly being a hero for common decency and/or doing their jobs.


We started the "hero" worship after 9/11. I was a firefighter for about 6 years prior to 9/11. Never once ever got called a hero, not that I was looking for it. Today, if you are on the window at Burger King you are considered a hero. It's over used......... mind you it did manage to get Police and Firefighters double digit raises for about 10 years after 9/11. Which of course you are paying for through your taxes.


----------



## boyscout

GuitarsCanada said:


> We started the "hero" worship after 9/11. I was a firefighter for about 6 years prior to 9/11. Never once ever got called a hero, not that I was looking for it. Today, if you are on the window at Burger King you are considered a hero. It's over used......... mind you it did manage to get Police and Firefighters double digit raises for about 10 years after 9/11. Which of course you are paying for through your taxes.


I'd be willing to call you a hero now if you could poke anyone or anything to get this forum working smoothly again. It just took me four tries and well over a minute to put a 'Like' on your previous message... I was trying to decide if I liked it that much. Very frequent delays like that, and instances where a Like or a message isn't posted even after waiting patiently for it... the site just comes back from meditation without changing anything.


----------



## colchar

boyscout said:


> I'd be willing to call you a hero now if you could poke anyone or anything to get this forum working smoothly again. It just took me four tries and well over a minute to put a 'Like' on your previous message... I was trying to decide if I liked it that much. Very frequent delays like that, and instances where a Like or a message isn't posted even after waiting patiently for it... the site just comes back from meditation without changing anything.



User error.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Kat Montgomery
May 6 at 5:17 PM
**EDITED TO ADD: I wrote this post to help my friends sort through misinformation and did not expect it to go viral. Several commenters have asked me to cite sources, and I agree that this is important to do. I still have a day job, but I have edited to include primary sources for all points when possible.**SECOND EDIT: People seem to not understand that PubMed (ncbi) is the international database for cataloguing medical research studies and instead think it only contains government-funded information or research. This is not the case. It is basically the Google of peer-reviewed research studies.**

*The following statements represent my personal informed views and not those of any institution*

First, background: I’m a physician (specifically a board-certified pathologist, which includes microbiology and laboratory medicine) with a master’s degree in epidemiology.

In the last day or two, several friends have shared or posted about a video “documentary” called “Plandemic”. The film depicts now-discredited former researcher Judy Mikovits who shares a plausible-sounding narrative about the current pandemic. The problem here is that nearly all of her scientific statements are demonstrably false. If you have more to add to this list, or credible data to the contrary, please start a discussion. I suspect there are many more false claims in this video, but these are just the ones that stuck out to me as a physician with epidemiology training.

- She states “There is no vaccine for any RNA virus that works." Incorrect: Polio, hepatitis A, measles, to name a few. (Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4763971/)
- Her retracted paper was actually not about vaccines at all, even though she insinuates that it was. (Here is the article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19815723)
- She states that Ebola could not infect humans until it was engineered to do so in her laboratory. This is false. (Here is an article describing an outbreak of Ebola in 1976, long before Dr. Mikovits was conducting research: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27357339)
- Likewise, many other zoonotic viruses have been shown to gain mutations that allow them to infect humans. This would not be some kind of new, crazy idea. We actually predicted it years ago: we just didn’t know exactly which virus or when it would occur. (Here is an article from 2015 discussing the likely emergence of future coronavirus pandemics: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4687304/ )
- She states that the US was working with Wuhan to study coronaviruses years ago, like it’s a “gotcha” moment: yes, of course we were doing this – Wuhan is a coronavirus hotspot and it makes sense to study this family of viruses where it naturally occurs. (Same article as above: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4687304/ )
- She states that COPD lungs are identical to COVID-19 lungs. As a pathologist, this is ludicrous – any practicing physician would be able to tell COPD from COVID-19, both clinically and histologically. (One article discussing an overview of tools for diagnosing COVID19 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7144809/, one about CT specifically https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7191895/, and one about histology specifically https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7184436/ )
- The statement taken out of context from the CDC death certificate recommendation reads in full “In cases where a definitive diagnosis of COVID-19 cannot be made, but is suspected or likely (the circumstances are compelling within a reasonable degree of certainty), it is acceptable to report COVID-19 on a death certificate as “probable” or “presumed”. In these instances, certifiers should use their best judgment in determining if a COVID-19 diagnosis was likely. Testing for COVID-19 should be conducted whenever possible.”. My physician colleagues are not being pressured to put COVID-19 on death certificates when it should not be there. (Here is the actual document with instructions for
filling out death certificates from the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvss/vsrg/vsrg03-508.pdf )


----------



## Jim DaddyO

- The idea that physicians are incorrectly diagnosing COVID-19 due to financial incentive is also ridiculous. Medicare sometimes bundles payments for some conditions (i.e. if you have a heart attack, medicare may pay XX for your treatment) – it’s possible the hospital could get paid $13,000 for your COVID-19 admission, but do you know what that’s based on? The fact that the average cost of a hospital admission for a respiratory condition is $13,297. (I can’t post a scientific study here, since this isn’t a scientific fact, but this article describes the procedure in detail: https://www.usatoday.com/…/fact-check-medicare-…/3000638001/ )
- She states that hydroxychloroquine has been “extensively studied in this family of viruses” – in fact, it has not been studied well in coronaviruses. It HAS been studied in malaria, which is not a virus. (Here is the one study that was performed that people like to cite, and it is an in vitro study (not in humans), of SARS (not COVID-19), and chloroquine (not hydroxychloroquine): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1232869/ ). And yes, it is considered an essential medicine for the treatment of malaria. Not for coronaviruses.
- Furthermore, the data on hydroxychloroquine are much weaker than they originally appeared: the small study that was highly publicized was not a randomized controlled trial, and the only patients who died were those who received hydroxychloroquine (and these were EXCLUDED FROM ANALYSIS!). This is terrible science. Even so, we want to investigate all possible treatments, so controlled trials are being conducted on hydroxychloroquine right now. (One study published on May 7 shows no benefit to using hydroxychloroquine https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32379955 )
- She insinuates that there is a hydroxychloroquine shortage as a result of reduced production. In fact, the shortage has resulted from an increase in demand: people who take this medication regularly are writing extended prescriptions and because physicians are using it for COVID19 patients because they have nothing else to try. (https://jamanetwork.com/c…/health-forum/fullarticle/2764607…).
- “All flu vaccines contain coronaviruses”. Nope, absolutely false. (In fact, it’s so false based on the way vaccines are made that there are no studies specifically stating this claim. It would be like trying to conduct a study to examine whether humans can live with zero oxygen. Nope, we can’t. No study needed.)
- The ideas that sheltering in place somehow harms your immune system or that you may reactivate a virus in yourself by wearing a mask have been thoroughly debunked in other posts and I won’t get into the details here. Both national societies of emergency medicine have condemned the statements of these doctors, one of whom is not board-certified. (Please refer to Dr. Kasten’s post and others about these)

- Lastly, private companies removing false information from their platforms does not represent repression or promotion of propaganda. It’s helping to promote the spread of sound scientific information. If you think lies should be permitted to circulate freely alongside the truth with the intention of reaching people who won’t be able to tell the difference, you are part of the problem.


----------



## Electraglide

COVID-19 outbreak linked to Canada Post main plant in Calgary, health officials say


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> - The idea that physicians are incorrectly diagnosing COVID-19 due to financial incentive is also ridiculous. Medicare sometimes bundles payments for some conditions (i.e. if you have a heart attack, medicare may pay XX for your treatment) – it’s possible the hospital could get paid $13,000 for your COVID-19 admission, but do you know what that’s based on? The fact that the average cost of a hospital admission for a respiratory condition is $13,297. (I can’t post a scientific study here, since this isn’t a scientific fact, but this article describes the procedure in detail: https://www.usatoday.com/…/fact-check-medicare-…/3000638001/ )
> - She states that hydroxychloroquine has been “extensively studied in this family of viruses” – in fact, it has not been studied well in coronaviruses. It HAS been studied in malaria, which is not a virus. (Here is the one study that was performed that people like to cite, and it is an in vitro study (not in humans), of SARS (not COVID-19), and chloroquine (not hydroxychloroquine): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1232869/ ). And yes, it is considered an essential medicine for the treatment of malaria. Not for coronaviruses.
> - Furthermore, the data on hydroxychloroquine are much weaker than they originally appeared: the small study that was highly publicized was not a randomized controlled trial, and the only patients who died were those who received hydroxychloroquine (and these were EXCLUDED FROM ANALYSIS!). This is terrible science. Even so, we want to investigate all possible treatments, so controlled trials are being conducted on hydroxychloroquine right now. (One study published on May 7 shows no benefit to using hydroxychloroquine https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32379955 )
> - She insinuates that there is a hydroxychloroquine shortage as a result of reduced production. In fact, the shortage has resulted from an increase in demand: people who take this medication regularly are writing extended prescriptions and because physicians are using it for COVID19 patients because they have nothing else to try. (https://jamanetwork.com/c…/health-forum/fullarticle/2764607…).
> - “All flu vaccines contain coronaviruses”. Nope, absolutely false. (In fact, it’s so false based on the way vaccines are made that there are no studies specifically stating this claim. It would be like trying to conduct a study to examine whether humans can live with zero oxygen. Nope, we can’t. No study needed.)
> - The ideas that sheltering in place somehow harms your immune system or that you may reactivate a virus in yourself by wearing a mask have been thoroughly debunked in other posts and I won’t get into the details here. Both national societies of emergency medicine have condemned the statements of these doctors, one of whom is not board-certified. (Please refer to Dr. Kasten’s post and others about these)
> 
> - Lastly, private companies removing false information from their platforms does not represent repression or promotion of propaganda. It’s helping to promote the spread of sound scientific information. If you think lies should be permitted to circulate freely alongside the truth with the intention of reaching people who won’t be able to tell the difference, you are part of the problem.


Many thanks for a thorough, and thoroughly-researched, pair of posts, Jim. We don't often get much here that is authoritative, so this is deeply appreciated. I appreciate your skill, as a pathologist,in identifying the pathological.
As a guy with a stent, three bypasses, and a perpetual prescription for metoprolol, I try to avoid Youtubes and similar that I know will elevate my blood pressure. Thanks for doing the heavy lifting for the rest of us.
Mark


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> Many thanks for a thorough, and thoroughly-researched, pair of posts, Jim.


You're welcome, but most of the work was done by Dr. Montgomery. The article is her opinion based on her experience, backed up by the links to the most authorative, peer reviewed source that exists. I am sure she is a busy person and is experiencing frustration that her job is being made more difficult by bad information being spread around. I just happened upon it and shared it after reading it.


----------



## bolero

this poor guy lives out on a farm: his mother asked if she could stay with him & got his whole family infected

I was totally prepared to quarantine for COVID-19 — and my family got it anyway


----------



## keto

I assume the New England Journal of Medicine is a good enough source for all?
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2012410

"*Conclusions*
In this observational study involving patients with Covid-19 who had been admitted to the hospital, hydroxychloroquine administration was not associated with either a greatly lowered or an increased risk of the composite end point of intubation or death. Randomized, controlled trials of hydroxychloroquine in patients with Covid-19 are needed. (Funded by the National Institutes of Health.)"

Basically, it's a big nothing. Much more data at the link.


----------



## Kenmac

Could corona virus be cured by a Llama named Winter? Here's the story:

A Llama In Belgium Might Hold The Key To Treating COVID-19

I also see that we're up to page 100 of this thread so I thought I'd ask everybody how they're doing so far? Are you still patient about all of this or is your patience wearing thin? As for myself, I'm still patient and hopefully will stay that way as more places keep opening up.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Kenmac said:


> so I thought I'd ask everybody how they're doing so far?


Thanks for asking. 

Not much has changed in life around here. We are home bodies. The shopping trips are a bit more stressful because of people, but they have always been stressful because of people....lol. 

Hope you're doing well....and everyone else too. At least as well as circumstances permit. I don't believe that we are anywhere near the end of this. I have it in my mind that it will be well over a year or more before things really start getting in line again. So anything sooner will be a pleasant surprise.


----------



## keto

Jim DaddyO said:


> Thanks for asking.
> 
> Not much has changed in life around here. We are home bodies. The shopping trips are a bit more stressful because of people, but they have always been stressful because of people....lol.
> 
> Hope you're doing well....and everyone else too. At least as well as circumstances permit. I don't believe that we are anywhere near the end of this. I have it in my mind that it will be well over a year or more before things really start getting in line again. So anything sooner will be a pleasant surprise.


I very much agree anything soon is great, a year is optimistic.


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## Wardo

The virus thing ain’t exactly going away anytime soon so the reasons for having a lockdown are still there; the question now is how much of it are you prepared to eat.


----------



## Electraglide

I decided not to go out today. PITA. I'll be out tomorrow. They say department stores among other things should open on the 14th around here.....can't come soon enough.


----------



## Moosehead

This bitch is gonna take a year or 2 to shake. At least we're able to spread the brunt of the infections over time so the health care system can handle it. I feel now its not if but when.. we will all eventually get it. It takes too long to get a vaxxine right for them to solve this now... in 6 months maybe but I don't want to be the guinea pig.

Some of the stories im hearing are pretty grim... 3 doctors "fell out of windows" in russia lately. US is fuct and most of our cases our initial cases were reported to be from there. 
The boob in charge doesnt help.. 

My wife is a psychologist, she and her boss treat first responders and the stuff we're fed through news and our leaders massively minimizes this pandemic. 
Opening shit this early helps not kill the economy but at what cost. Further community spread? 

But fuck it I went back to work today anyway. 1/2 hour lineup at depot and was like a fn blizzard out there. Got my floor leveler and gtfo. Curbside is great in theory but when you have to wait 2+ days for your shit it doesn't work for me...

Was feeling ready to pop so getting out and doing something was good... anywwsys thats my rant for the day.


----------



## mhammer

There's open and there's open. To some extent, enough people have gotten accustomed to keeping physical distance, wearing masks and gloves, that any such habits relied on for grocery shopping and getting prescriptions filled can easily generalize to other contexts, like picking up a few bags of mulch, or some 6/32 screws, or other commercial interactions. It's not life, circa May 2019, but it's doable. It's the folks who mistakenly think that "open" means a return to May 2019 that foster risk.

But that's one of the big lessons in life, especially as you get older. You don't measure the quality of your life right now by what used to be; you learn to appreciate it on its own terms.


----------



## mturk

keto said:


> I assume the New England Journal of Medicine is a good enough source for all?
> https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2012410
> 
> "*Conclusions*
> In this observational study involving patients with Covid-19 who had been admitted to the hospital, hydroxychloroquine administration was not associated with either a greatly lowered or an increased risk of the composite end point of intubation or death. Randomized, controlled trials of hydroxychloroquine in patients with Covid-19 are needed. (Funded by the National Institutes of Health.)"
> 
> Basically, it's a big nothing. Much more data at the link.


Anytime I read about hydroxycloroquine success stories it is never just about hydroxycloroquine but with zinc. Zinc is an anti viral. It’s zinc that kills the virus. hydroxycloroquine Allows zinc to get into the cell. ( Referred to as an ionophore) Also this treatment needs to be used early when symptoms are first apparent. If someone is at the stage of not being able to breathe properly it’s too late. 
I find it odd that there seems to be such a push to discredit hydroxychloroquine when there are doctors reporting great success in the field. Could it be because it’s cheap? No big money to be made by the big pharmaceutical companies?


----------



## mturk

The Cost of Big Pharma’s Covid-19 Vaccine Will Be Paid in Lives and in Billions of Dollars - PaulCraigRoberts.org


----------



## keto

mturk said:


> The Cost of Big Pharma’s Covid-19 Vaccine Will Be Paid in Lives and in Billions of Dollars - PaulCraigRoberts.org


We keep idiots like him and the other conspiracy theorists in political, please. Also, there is zero evidence to your claims re hydro + zinc, and I know how popularly it is claimed. No science backing it up, however.


----------



## mhammer

One word: Laetrile


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> One word: Laetrile


----------



## colchar

mturk said:


> Zinc is an anti viral.


Since when?




> I find it odd that there seems to be such a push to discredit hydroxychloroquine when there are doctors reporting great success in the field.



No, there aren't. There are some who report that it might help, while others report that it does bugger all.




> Could it be because it’s cheap? No big money to be made by the big pharmaceutical companies?



Oh yes, it is all a conspiracy by big pharma.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> Oh yes, it is all a conspiracy by big pharma.


Hey, I recognize that. Good to see you have the sarcasm font finally installed!


----------



## marcos

Montreal is really getting hit hard at this moment. Sad to hear all of the people passing away.


----------



## bolero

marcos said:


> Montreal is really getting hit hard at this moment. Sad to hear all of the people passing away.


yes, agree

and the concern about catching the virus isn't just dying: it can seriously mess you up, even if you survive

ie: that 40 year old professional Broadway dancer, needed his leg amputated after he got COVID. 

I presume he was in better physical shape than most?


----------



## keto

mturk said:


> The Cost of Big Pharma’s Covid-19 Vaccine Will Be Paid in Lives and in Billions of Dollars - PaulCraigRoberts.org


Another new study out today. No help from hydro+zinc. No, it's not a gigantic double blind peer reviewed study, just sick people in NY. Another study shows drug touted by Trump doesn't help coronavirus patients, but it can raise heart attack risk


----------



## Doug Gifford

colchar said:


> Oh yes, it is all a conspiracy by big pharma.


My guess is they're up to their eyeballs in profiteering, but that's what they do. I do, though, trust peer reviewed science on the whole.


----------



## boyscout

With glacial speed Health Canada has finally approved the first anti-body test for use in learning more about Covid-19 infections and the possibility of immunity to it, MONTHS after similar tests were approved for use in other countries.

Some here without understanding (like @mhammer) have been dismissive of antibody tests and their usefulness. In the words of Health Canada:

_Serological testing will contribute to a better understanding of whether people who have been infected by COVID-19 are immune to the virus. Further research will also help us fully understand the relationship between positive antibody tests and protection against re-infection. _

Using antibody tests much can be learned about about a virus that has kneecapped the globe, and about which we know far too little. As we begin easing restrictions and people begin moving about again, the risk of another kneecapping wave is very real. Antibody testing will probably provide a hedge against that in several important ways. Too bad we're months late starting the process, and still months more from developing knowledge to gain the protection it may provide, but we're finally getting into it.

Statement from Health Canada on COVID-19 Serological Tests - Canada.ca


----------



## Electraglide

For the seniors out there.....all I can say is it's about effing time. Hopefully it's soon.
Who is eligible for the Canadian government's new COVID-19 aid for seniors?


----------



## keto

Electraglide said:


> For the seniors out there.....all I can say is it's about effing time. Hopefully it's soon.
> Who is eligible for the Canadian government's new COVID-19 aid for seniors?


I was just thinking about this and going to ask you, admitting I haven't seen any reporting on this, what increased costs are seniors seeing? Dispensing fees because a lot of meds 30 days only was the one I did see. And I know groceries are more.


----------



## Wardo

Price of cat food is going up.


----------



## Electraglide

keto said:


> I was just thinking about this and going to ask you, admitting I haven't seen any reporting on this, what increased costs are seniors seeing? Dispensing fees because a lot of meds 30 days only was the one I did see. And I know groceries are more.


Groceries, meds, paying for things that are usually free.....eg. I've had to buy a printer and a blood pressure machine and I lucked out and found a free working scanner. Things that if I had bought them I would have probably got at value Village now they have to be bought regular retail. Because of the changes in transit, there's costs for taxi/uber. As far as 'reporting' about seniors, about the only thing that's reported around here is the retirement home/care home situation. Things add up.


----------



## Eric Reesor

Wardo said:


> Price of cat food is going up.


You can blame it on us low income seniors. I prefer friskies brand seafood diner pate on a cheap cracker. Can't afford decent stone wheat thins like we once did.


----------



## Electraglide

Wardo said:


> Price of cat food is going up.


Yup and same with the price of Milk Bones if you can find them. This isn't bad on instant mashed potatoes with some onions and garlic. 








Those meaty bits are nice and soft.


----------



## Wardo

Eric Reesor said:


> You can blame it on us low income seniors. I prefer friskies brand seafood diner pate on a cheap cracker. Can't afford decent stone wheat thins like we once did.


I just grab a canadian goose every few days and wring it’s neck way better than cat food.


----------



## Wardo

Electraglide said:


> Yup and same with the price of Milk Bones if you can find them. This isn't bad on instant mashed potatoes with some onions and garlic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those meaty bits are nice and soft.


We need a thread on ideas for cooking with cat food.


----------



## Electraglide

Wardo said:


> We need a thread on ideas for cooking with cat food.


Not that hard, all you need is a microwave. A can opener would come in handy too.







Wardo said:


> I just grab a canadian goose every few days and wring it’s neck way better than cat food.


Nah, goose tastes like crappy fingers but if that's your thing go for it.


----------



## Electraglide

One nice thing about the money for seniors as compared to CERB payments etc. is the money for seniors in non-taxable.


----------



## Milkman

Electraglide said:


> One nice thing about the money for seniors as compared to CERB payments etc. is the money for seniors in non-taxable.



Maybe not for people who don't pay much tax anyway. I expect to be paying for all of this for the rest of my life and likely beyond.


----------



## mhammer

boyscout said:


> With glacial speed Health Canada has finally approved the first anti-body test for use in learning more about Covid-19 infections and the possibility of immunity to it, MONTHS after similar tests were approved for use in other countries.
> 
> Some here without understanding (like @mhammer) have been dismissive of antibody tests and their usefulness. In the words of Health Canada:
> 
> _Serological testing will contribute to a better understanding of *whether* people who have been infected by COVID-19 are immune to the virus. Further research will also help us fully understand the relationship between positive antibody tests and protection against re-infection. _
> 
> Using antibody tests much can be learned about about a virus that has kneecapped the globe, and about which we know far too little. As we begin easing restrictions and people begin moving about again, the risk of another kneecapping wave is very real. Antibody testing will probably provide a hedge against that in several important ways. Too bad we're months late starting the process, and still months more from developing knowledge to gain the protection it may provide, but we're finally getting into it.
> 
> Statement from Health Canada on COVID-19 Serological Tests - Canada.ca


You deeply misunderstand what I've posted. My stance is identical to that of Health Canada in that antibody tests are important and useful, but NOT the get-out-of-jail-free card that some think it is for the precise reasons HC has expressed. We need to know more abut the relationship between antibodies and virus susceptibility, in addition to producing more sensitive and accurate antibody tests. Sadly, the desire to "go back to normal" persuades many that having some level of positive antibody presence on a serological test allows that to happen. The word I've highlighted in red questions that, and so do I.

When climbing a tree, it's best to stay on the thickest branches, no matter how appealing the fruit at the end of the twigs may be.


----------



## Milkman

Well, as Ontario has extended the State of Emergency until June 2, we're continuing to work from home for at least the next couple of weeks.

Anyone remember that scene in Shawshank Redemption where the warden speaks to Andy after a month in solitary and then tells the guard to add another month?

Remember the look on Dufresne's face?

Meh, it's not that bad for me, but to say I never expected to spend more than TWO MONTHS not going to a workplace outside my home is a pretty major understatement.


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> One nice thing about the money for seniors as compared to CERB payments etc. is the money for seniors in non-taxable.


Not taxable at source, yes, but if it's money needed to buy things, at least a portion of it is returned in the form of GST. I don't say this to suggest anything nefarious. Rather, when more fiscally frugal-minded decision-makers fret about "spending so much", the purse strings are often loosened a bit by reminding them that when people are in need, they are in need of money to buy things they need. Some of that - like many foods - are non-taxable, but socks, lumber, paint, delivered food, etc., IS taxable. So with that modest return to the public coffers, a little more generosity is encouraged. Whether it is an _appropriate_ level of generosity (i.e., too much or too little or to the wrong beneficiaries) is a whole other question. I'm just pointing out that taxation at source is not the only source of taxation.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Milkman said:


> Well, as Ontario has extended the State of Emergency until June 2, we're continuing to work from home for at least the next couple of weeks.
> 
> Anyone remember that scene in Shawshank Redemption where the warden speaks to Andy after a month in solitary and then tells the guard to add another month?
> 
> Remember the look on Dufresne's face?
> 
> Meh, it's not that bad for me, but to say I never expected to spend more than TWO MONTHS not going to a workplace outside my home is a pretty major understatement.


Life can throw a lot of punches at you sometimes. If anyone would have told me 3 months ago that we would lose our business, be on (essentially) government assistance and that today I kissed the wife goodbye as she left for her first full day of work at the hospital, I would have told you that you needed to see a doctor. But that is exactly where we stand today. Where it all leads, who knows. So far, we are rolling with it. I have some battles that will take place down the road with regards to the business, but I have no real issue dealing with that when the time comes. Unprecedented times call for unprecedented measures.


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> Not taxable at source, yes, but if it's money needed to buy things, at least a portion of it is returned in the form of GST. I don't say this to suggest anything nefarious. Rather, when more fiscally frugal-minded decision-makers fret about "spending so much", the purse strings are often loosened a bit by reminding them that when people are in need, they are in need of money to buy things they need. Some of that - like many foods - are non-taxable, but socks, lumber, paint, delivered food, etc., IS taxable. So with that modest return to the public coffers, a little more generosity is encouraged. Whether it is an _appropriate_ level of generosity (i.e., too much or too little or to the wrong beneficiaries) is a whole other question. I'm just pointing out that taxation at source is not the only source of taxation.


For a lot of us it is money needed to buy things that normally would not be bought and yes, you do pay taxes in an off handed, backassed way. That horse is old hat and has been beaten for a lot of years. Maybe they should have said that seniors won't be double taxed on this like they are on just about everything else. It don't matter, all I know is I'll get an extra $500 which will go to pay peoples wages etc. and I don't have to worry about it possibly kicking me into a taxable bracket next year. 


Milkman said:


> Maybe not for people who don't pay much tax anyway. I expect to be paying for all of this for the rest of my life and likely beyond.


Compared to what you are going to be paying for for the rest of your life with your taxes etc. this is just a drop in the bucket. Same as with the $1.7 b spent to clean up orphaned and abandoned oil wells. BTW if any of your relatives or friends get CERB you're paying a lot more than that.


----------



## Milkman

Electraglide said:


> For a lot of us it is money needed to buy things that normally would not be bought and yes, you do pay taxes in an off handed, backassed way. That horse is old hat and has been beaten for a lot of years. Maybe they should have said that seniors won't be double taxed on this like they are on just about everything else. It don't matter, all I know is I'll get an extra $500 which will go to pay peoples wages etc. and I don't have to worry about it possibly kicking me into a taxable bracket next year.
> 
> Compared to what you are going to be paying for for the rest of your life with your taxes etc. this is just a drop in the bucket. Same as with the $1.7 b spent to clean up orphaned and abandoned oil wells. BTW if any of your relatives or friends get CERB you're paying a lot more than that.


I don't see this situation as a drop in any bucket.

This is a bit more than a recession. This is a reset.


----------



## Milkman

Here's another 1st world problem, survivors remorse.

Don't get me wrong, I have no death wish, but I do feel a bit guilty that I have been able to basically continue working with some changes, but none to my salary.

My wife has been unable to work at all but her income is sort of extra and frankly I think with the reduced driving and other wasteful activities we have had no choice but to curtail, we're probably spending less anyway.

Now my wife's sister who has already had some sort of COPD for a couple of years now, punctuated by numerous stays in the hospital has tested positive. They're doing a second test now. She's in hospital.
Based on my understanding of her condition I'd be surprised if she survives it, if indeed the second test comes back positive.


----------



## davetcan

Milkman said:


> Here's another 1st world problem, survivors remorse.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I have no death wish, but I do feel a bit guilty that I have been able to basically continue working with some changes, but none to my salary.
> 
> My wife has been unable to work at all but her income is sort of extra and frankly I think with the reduced driving and other wasteful activities we have had no choice but to curtail, we're probably spending less anyway.
> 
> Now my wife's sister who has already had some sort of COPD for a couple of years now, punctuated by numerous stays in the hospital has tested positive. They're doing a second test now. She's in hospital.
> Based on my understanding of her condition I'd be surprised if she survives it, if indeed the second test comes back positive.


Best wishes for her!


----------



## davetcan

GuitarsCanada said:


> Life can throw a lot of punches at you sometimes. If anyone would have told me 3 months ago that we would lose our business, be on (essentially) government assistance and that today I kissed the wife goodbye as she left for her first full day of work at the hospital, I would have told you that you needed to see a doctor. But that is exactly where we stand today. Where it all leads, who knows. So far, we are rolling with it. I have some battles that will take place down the road with regards to the business, but I have no real issue dealing with that when the time comes. Unprecedented times call for unprecedented measures.


Kudos to her for doing this and I hope she's able to protect herself as much as possible.


----------



## davetcan

Electraglide said:


> For the seniors out there.....all I can say is it's about effing time. Hopefully it's soon.
> Who is eligible for the Canadian government's new COVID-19 aid for seniors?


That's great, and i sure won't refuse it, but a one time payment of $300 won't even cover the carbon tax.


----------



## Distortion

keto said:


> I was just thinking about this and going to ask you, admitting I haven't seen any reporting on this, what increased costs are seniors seeing? Dispensing fees because a lot of meds 30 days only was the one I did see. And I know groceries are more.


buying votes . Thats all. Next week there will be a hand out to all dog walkers. Got to pay for all them newly worn out shoes.


----------



## Milkman

*Brazilian cities move toward lockdowns as COVID-19 crisis intensifies | CBC News*


*President downplays risk*
Brazil had more than 177,000 confirmed cases as of Tuesday, with the actual figure believed to be much higher because of limited testing. Many intensive-care hospital units are full and cemeteries are increasingly overwhelmed with bodies.

Bolsonaro, who called the virus a "little flu," has insisted for more than a month that governors are stoking economic carnage with voluntary quarantine recommendations and urges Brazilians to go about their everyday lives. He reiterated criticism of governors Tuesday for ignoring his decree that gyms, barbershops and beauty salons should be treated as essential services.


----------



## Milkman

Distortion said:


> buying votes . Thats all. Next week there will be a hand out to all dog walkers. Got to pay for all them newly worn out shoes.


Right, well they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

Surely if they didn't, some expert likely from the opposition, would criticize them for not supporting our seniors.


----------



## Wardo

davetcan said:


> That's great, and i sure won't refuse it, but a one time payment of $300 won't even cover the carbon tax.


That’d get me tank of gas and a case of wine but what are they gonna do for me a week later when that’s all gone .. lol


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> Right, well they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.
> 
> Surely if they didn't, some expert likely from the opposition, would criticize them for not supporting our seniors.


They keep throwing all that money around, yet none of it has managed to be tossed my way yet .


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> They keep throwing all that money around, yet none of it has managed to be tossed my way yet .



Me neither, but I'm not asking.


----------



## vadsy

Milkman said:


> Me neither, but I'm not asking.


that’s noble of you.


----------



## mhammer

He's not asking for praise, just clarifying his circumstance. Many of us, myself included, are "not asking". We merely hope that what IS being handed out is both effective in helping Canadians tread water for a while, and not unduly punitive once we're all back on dry land.

Those who are critical of the financial relief efforts so far should outline their own plan for accomplishing the ideal. I _know_ the efforts so far are sloppy, and will be a rich vein to mine for auditors, post-pandemic. It's what I've been saying since the start. That IS what you get when you have to whip up programs and policies on the fly and in a hurry; always has been that way. The question is "What would be _better_?".


----------



## Milkman

mhammer said:


> He's not asking for praise, just clarifying his circumstance. Many of us, myself included, are "not asking". We merely hope that what IS being handed out is both effective in helping Canadians tread water for a while, and not unduly punitive once we're all back on dry land.
> 
> Those who are critical of the financial relief efforts so far should outline their own plan for accomplishing the ideal. I _know_ the efforts so far are sloppy, and will be a rich vein to mine for auditors, post-pandemic. It's what I've been saying since the start. That IS what you get when you have to whip up programs and policies on the fly and in a hurry; always has been that way. The question is "What would be _better_?".


I don't disagree but I'm not surprised that none of the "free money" has been thrown my way.

I know full well that there are many who need help right now and I hope those who truly deserve it get it.


----------



## Distortion

Milkman said:


> Right, well they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.
> 
> Surely if they didn't, some expert likely from the opposition, would criticize them for not supporting our seniors.


Anyone with half a brain and a A hole can see through this. Pre Covid a senior got old age security,canada pension if they paid in , and another little treat if they never made any decent money in their working life. Along comes covid and the checks are the same and keep rolling. Tell me why the extra 3 to 5 hundred dollars now.? What additional expense has a senior endured due to covid ? Again buying votes with our money.


----------



## vadsy

mhammer said:


> He's not asking for praise, just clarifying his circumstance. Many of us, myself included, are "not asking". We merely hope that what IS being handed out is both effective in helping Canadians tread water for a while, and not unduly punitive once we're all back on dry land.
> 
> Those who are critical of the financial relief efforts so far should outline their own plan for accomplishing the ideal. I _know_ the efforts so far are sloppy, and will be a rich vein to mine for auditors, post-pandemic. It's what I've been saying since the start. That IS what you get when you have to whip up programs and policies on the fly and in a hurry; always has been that way. The question is "What would be _better_?".


praise or attention, same difference but the real fun thing is that *you* have to clarify *his* circumstance


----------



## boyscout

Distortion said:


> Anyone with half a brain and a A hole can see through this. Pre Covid a senior got old age security,canada pension if they paid in , and another little treat if they never made any decent money in their working life. Along comes covid and the checks are the same and keep rolling. Tell me why the extra 3 to 5 hundred dollars now.? *What additional expense has a senior endured due to covid ?*


For seniors on fixed incomes or incomes dependent on financial planning:

- significant increases in food costs,

- rationing of pharmaceuticals and higher costs for them and fees and co-payments,

- immediate-impact costs of stocking-up to reduce the number of trips outside to get food and drugs, OR

- costs for delivery of food and drugs, AND

- reduced ability to shop for sale items, 

- losses in the mutual funds and other financial instruments they rely upon for their income (this one is going to last, and hit HARD later on).


----------



## Distortion

boyscout said:


> For seniors on fixed incomes or incomes dependent on financial planning:
> 
> - significant increases in food costs,
> 
> - rationing of pharmaceuticals and higher costs for them and fees and co-payments,
> 
> - immediate-impact costs of stocking-up to reduce the number of trips outside to get food and drugs, OR
> 
> - costs for delivery of food and drugs, AND
> 
> - reduced ability to shop for sale items,
> 
> - losses in the mutual funds and other financial instruments they rely upon for their income (this one is going to last, and hit HARD later on).


no to all points. Loss in financal investments. I guess everyone should get a check for that.


----------



## mhammer

vadsy said:


> praise or attention, same difference but the real fun thing is that *you* have to clarify *his* circumstance


Because apparently you can't resist sniping at people. You've managed to go without it for brief bouts at a time, and I commend you for that, but try and make those bouts more frequent and longer-lasting.


----------



## vadsy

mhammer said:


> Because apparently you can't resist sniping at people. You've managed to go without it for brief bouts at a time, and I commend you for that, but try and make those bouts more frequent and longer-lasting.


its nice that you do the guy a solid and everyone needs a knight in shining armour but I don't see the guy the way you see him and sniping once in a while is probably better than sniping all the time, gotta pace myself


----------



## davetcan

mhammer said:


> He's not asking for praise, just clarifying his circumstance. Many of us, myself included, are "not asking". We merely hope that what IS being handed out is both effective in helping Canadians tread water for a while, and not unduly punitive once we're all back on dry land.
> 
> Those who are critical of the financial relief efforts so far should outline their own plan for accomplishing the ideal. I _know_ the efforts so far are sloppy, and will be a rich vein to mine for auditors, post-pandemic. It's what I've been saying since the start. That IS what you get when you have to whip up programs and policies on the fly and in a hurry; always has been that way. The question is "What would be _better_?".


I criticize him/them for a lot of things but not this. it's unprecedented and all countries are struggling with it.


----------



## mhammer

Distortion said:


> Anyone with half a brain and a A hole can see through this. Pre Covid a senior got old age security,canada pension if they paid in , and another little treat if they never made any decent money in their working life. Along comes covid and the checks are the same and keep rolling. Tell me why the extra 3 to 5 hundred dollars now.? What additional expense has a senior endured due to covid ? Again buying votes with our money.


You always have to ask what it would take, in both time, and human resources, to provide perks or relief to ONLY the "truly deserving". And you always have to remember that the elected folks who sit at the cabinet table, and try to come up with well-intentioned, and prompt, responses to national or provincial emergencies, are relying on a phalanx of policy analysts and lawyers to explore the details for them. Those are the folks who remind the elected persons that we can't do X because it contravenes law or international treaty Y, or that we can't simply ignore contract Z because we we would subject to severe penalties, or that we can't unilaterally implement XX because we have signed agreements with nation/province YY, or that we have HUGE capital expenditure ZZ coming up next year. There's all these details that a) take time to discover and lay out for the legislative people, and b) constrain what can practically be done. Then there's the matter of who's available to actually carry it out. One always tries not to have large numbers of people just hanging around twiddling their thumbs - the very basis of all those current layoffs - waiting for something to do. And if they're all busy doing something they're supposed to do, then you have to figure out who can be reassigned to "that new emergency".

I'm not trying to make excuses for bad policies and leaky programs. They exist, and should be criticized appropriately, and reshaped if at all possible. Rather, it is pretty much always more complicated than you'd think, takes more time than people expect, and involves more opinions and consultation than whoever is at the microphone to talk about it. Well, unless one happens to be an autocrat of some sort.

Why the extra 3-500 dollars now? (and I truly hope none of that has been sent my way; I don't want it or need it) Because there are files that identify people who are currently receiving OAS, because they historically did not make that much income. Those same files do NOT flag people who won the 6/49 and have millions sitting in the Cayman Islands, or who inherited money from a wealthy aunt. And because they currently do not have an employer, those people are not eligible for the various employment-related benefits. Many such persons would usually have adult children to take care of certain things for them, and defray some kinds of costs, but such assistance is not available now. Is it the "right" amount? I have no frigging idea, but I think nobody else here does, either. That said, Boyscout has laid out all the reasons why some assistance is required.


----------



## Electraglide

davetcan said:


> That's great, and i sure won't refuse it, but a one time payment of $300 won't even cover the carbon tax.


I take it you don't get GIS. I'll also take the carbon tax rebate here in Ab.


----------



## Electraglide

boyscout said:


> For seniors on fixed incomes or incomes dependent on financial planning:
> 
> - significant increases in food costs,
> 
> - rationing of pharmaceuticals and higher costs for them and fees and co-payments,
> 
> - immediate-impact costs of stocking-up to reduce the number of trips outside to get food and drugs, OR
> 
> - costs for delivery of food and drugs, AND
> 
> - reduced ability to shop for sale items,
> 
> - losses in the mutual funds and other financial instruments they rely upon for their income (this one is going to last, and hit HARD later on).


Reduced ability to shop for sale items? No ability to shop for sale items. Right now the only place open around here to shop for say shoes or a shirt is wallyworld and there is a limit to what they have. For quite a few CPP and OAS are the only income we have. No mutual funds or other investments. Toss in there cab fare to go to say drs. appointments because of less rapid transit or fear of taking rapid transit.


----------



## Electraglide

Distortion said:


> Anyone with half a brain and a A hole can see through this. Pre Covid a senior got old age security,canada pension if they paid in , and another little treat if they never made any decent money in their working life. Along comes covid and the checks are the same and keep rolling. Tell me why the extra 3 to 5 hundred dollars now.? What additional expense has a senior endured due to covid ? Again buying votes with our money.


So you have half a brain and an a hole? For seniors the finally toss in a little money.....one time payment. For other's it's $2,000 a month for a while.....seems that students can now get a monthly check also.....same with natives. I'm not too sure about the "little treat" that you're talking about. There are quite a few, mostly ladies who didn't pay into CPP so all they have is OAS and maybe GIS. You want to try to live on that for a while? BTW things like GIS etc. are based on last years income, not what you've made in your working life.


----------



## Milkman

Wow, $2000 a month. My mentally challenged daughter receives just under $1000 a month in disability for EVERYTHING.


----------



## allthumbs56

vadsy said:


> praise or attention, same difference but the real fun thing is that *you* have to clarify *his* circumstance


Perhaps they've been doing each other's hair during the lockdown?


----------



## Milkman

Well, I'll be doing mine damn soon. It was a nice little break from shaving but I'm ready to shed this unwanted hair.

Maybe tomorrow. It's going to feel so good.


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> Wow, $2000 a month. My mentally challenged daughter receives just under $1000 a month in disability for EVERYTHING.


There will be a Great Accounting and a lot of people will be pretty upset about the claw backs and paying the income taxes that have not been withheld. It won't take much to find yourself owing 4 grand on that 8 grand that you had no trouble spending months ago. The CRA is a lot less friendly than your average MP when it comes to paying the bill too. I see it a lot under normal circumstances. Tax Season 2021 is gonna be a killing field.


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> You always have to ask what it would take, in both time, and human resources, to provide perks or relief to ONLY the "truly deserving". And you always have to remember that the elected folks who sit at the cabinet table, and try to come up with well-intentioned, and prompt, responses to national or provincial emergencies, are relying on a phalanx of policy analysts and lawyers to explore the details for them. Those are the folks who remind the elected persons that we can't do X because it contravenes law or international treaty Y, or that we can't simply ignore contract Z because we we would subject to severe penalties, or that we can't unilaterally implement XX because we have signed agreements with nation/province YY, or that we have HUGE capital expenditure ZZ coming up next year. There's all these details that a) take time to discover and lay out for the legislative people, and b) constrain what can practically be done. Then there's the matter of who's available to actually carry it out. One always tries not to have large numbers of people just hanging around twiddling their thumbs - the very basis of all those current layoffs - waiting for something to do. And if they're all busy doing something they're supposed to do, then you have to figure out who can be reassigned to "that new emergency".
> 
> I'm not trying to make excuses for bad policies and leaky programs. They exist, and should be criticized appropriately, and reshaped if at all possible. Rather, it is pretty much always more complicated than you'd think, takes more time than people expect, and involves more opinions and consultation than whoever is at the microphone to talk about it. Well, unless one happens to be an autocrat of some sort.
> 
> Why the extra 3-500 dollars now? (and I truly hope none of that has been sent my way; I don't want it or need it) Because there are files that identify people who are currently receiving OAS, because they historically did not make that much income. Those same files do NOT flag people who won the 6/49 and have millions sitting in the Cayman Islands, or who inherited money from a wealthy aunt. And because they currently do not have an employer, those people are not eligible for the various employment-related benefits. Many such persons would usually have adult children to take care of certain things for them, and defray some kinds of costs, but such assistance is not available now. Is it the "right" amount? I have no frigging idea, but I think nobody else here does, either. That said, Boyscout has laid out all the reasons why some assistance is required.


If you get OAS then you'll get the $300. Income has no bearing on OAS.....when I went from working to being retired my OAS didn't change. 
Old Age Security-Eligibility - Canada.ca
GIS is income related. If your yearly income not including OAS is more than $18,599 you don't get GIS. Other than that it varies based on what your income for the previous year was which is based on your income tax return. I question this, "Many such persons would usually have adult children to take care of certain things for them, and defray some kinds of costs," but that's based on people I know and family.


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> Wow, $2000 a month. My mentally challenged daughter receives just under $1000 a month in disability for EVERYTHING.


Can your wife apply for CERB? There's the $2,000 a month.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> There will be a Great Accounting and a lot of people will be pretty upset about the claw backs and paying the income taxes that have not been withheld. It won't take much to find yourself owing 4 grand on that 8 grand that you had no trouble spending months ago. The CRA is a lot less friendly than your average MP when it comes to paying the bill too. I see it a lot under normal circumstances. Tax Season 2021 is gonna be a killing field.


If actual evidence ever arises pointing to culpability on the part of any government or culture, this could get even uglier.

I'm inclined to work as hard as possible to get past this, but I'm also anxious to know why this happened. I don't think it's blame time yet, but that time may come. Yes, lots of people have theories but we really don't know the root cause of this yet. Maybe we never will.


----------



## Milkman

Electraglide said:


> Can your wife apply for CERB? There's the $2,000 a month.


No, her income is gone for now and she cannot apply for CERB. I really can't go into that more. Frankly, if we don't need the help (which we don't) I'm not inclined to take it.

To me, that's basically crying wolf.


----------



## Electraglide

allthumbs56 said:


> There will be a Great Accounting and a lot of people will be pretty upset about the claw backs and paying the income taxes that have not been withheld. It won't take much to find yourself owing 4 grand on that 8 grand that you had no trouble spending months ago. The CRA is a lot less friendly than your average MP when it comes to paying the bill too. I see it a lot under normal circumstances. Tax Season 2021 is gonna be a killing field.


Income tax not being witheld......you mean like on CPP and OAS and GIS and EI and other things like that?


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> No, her income is gone for now and she cannot apply for CERB. I really can't go into that more. Frankly, if we don't need the help (which we don't) I'm not inclined to take it.
> 
> To me, that's basically crying wolf.


Unfortunately there are a lot of people who don't think like that and have applied and are receiving. And there are people who can't apply for any of the life rings.


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> I question this, "Many such persons would usually have adult children to take care of certain things for them, and defray some kinds of costs," but that's based on people I know and family.


That's why I qualified it with "many". If only 10% of recipients fit that description, that's still a lot of people.


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> That's why I qualified it with "many". If only 10% of recipients fit that description, that's still a lot of people.


I'd say, for various reasons 10% is about right.


----------



## laristotle

LILLEY: Trudeau scoffs at questions about hundreds of millions in fraudulent payments


----------



## allthumbs56

Electraglide said:


> Income tax not being witheld......you mean like on CPP and OAS and GIS and EI and other things like that?


No. AFAIK there is no tax being withheld on the CERB payments.


----------



## Milkman

laristotle said:


> LILLEY: Trudeau scoffs at questions about hundreds of millions in fraudulent payments



Lilley should work for Fox News.


----------



## keto

So, we've opened up the forum for politics everywhere? Most of the last 3 pages is......


----------



## Milkman

Seems that way.


----------



## vadsy

keto said:


> So, we've opened up the forum for politics everywhere? Most of the last 3 pages is......


I love the fact that we've had multiple threads locked in the last few days and people reprimanded, ..unless of course you are part of the old boys club and the rules don't apply to you...


----------



## mhammer

Well if you recall, this thread started out being about something that very much concerned and worried all of us. But over the last 20 pages the goddamn dog took those new shoes we bought and were so pleased with, and decided to use them as a chew toy.


----------



## laristotle

Milkman said:


> Lilley should work for Fox News.


I don't get the connection.


----------



## vadsy

mhammer said:


> Well if you recall, this thread started out being about something that very much concerned and worried all of us. But over the last 20 pages the goddamn dog took those new shoes we bought and were so pleased with, and decided to use them as a chew toy.


I think it’s time Dave flexed and gave some of these spillover guys a time-out. I’d hate to see this place follow the rules but it’s a different world. Funny that the guy who started this thread wanted it to be different from the last, and pleaded with us for it, is helping unapologetically politicize it himself.


----------



## allthumbs56

keto said:


> So, we've opened up the forum for politics everywhere? Most of the last 3 pages is......


I'll make my comments where they belong ............................. and probably be accused of reverse-bleed


----------



## mhammer

Which is precisely why it's important for members to set a good example, whenever the opportunity presents itself. That's not directed at anyone in particular, just something to shoot for all the time, in all threads, by all members. Too damn easy to fall off that tightrope.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

vadsy said:


> I think it’s time Dave flexed and gave some of these spillover guys a time-out. I’d hate to see this place follow the rules but it’s a different world. Funny that the guy who started this thread wanted it to be different from the last, and pleaded with us for it, is helping unapologetically politicize it himself.


I think under the circumstances, which are unprecedented in our time, that discussing what the government is doing to help people (or not help) can be discussed here. What we don't need is the Liberal/Conservative arguments. I think it's goo that we post what's available to people and what's not being covered. Helps us all. The name calling and bashing should be left in the political forum. Ultimately, I have no faith in it happening


----------



## vadsy

GuitarsCanada said:


> I think under the circumstances, which are unprecedented in our time, that discussing what the government is doing to help people (or not help) can be discussed here. What we don't need is the Liberal/Conservative arguments. I think it's goo that we post what's available to people and what's not being covered. Helps us all. The name calling and bashing should be left in the political forum. Ultimately, I have no faith in it happening


you’re the boss. and I myself appreciate a little leniency from time to time

Carry on


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Right now, it wouldn't matter who's in charge of the federal purse strings. There would be complaints and mistakes made regardless.

I, for one, would not be able to make the decision on who gets and who doesnt' get what amount and when. There are just too many bases to cover at the same time. I also note that no "better options" have been suggested yet.


----------



## keto

Jim DaddyO said:


> Right now, it wouldn't matter who's in charge of the federal purse strings. There would be complaints and mistakes made regardless.
> 
> I, for one, would not be able to make the decision on who gets and who doesnt' get what amount and when. There are just too many bases to cover at the same time. I also note that no "better options" have been suggested yet.


Hell, I could have a platform up in 5 minutes that benefits everyone who needs it. What's the point?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

keto said:


> Hell, I could have a platform up in 5 minutes that benefits everyone who needs it. What's the point?


Some $250 billion so far and 34 million people.

Costed and logistics included.

5 minutes...............go.


----------



## laristotle

Deal with the fraud so that borrowed funds are distributed wisely?


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> Well if you recall, this thread started out being about something that very much concerned and worried all of us. But over the last 20 pages the goddamn dog took those new shoes we bought and were so pleased with, and decided to use them as a chew toy.


They didn't fit anyway.....someone bought them on line. Got the dog there too.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Right now, it wouldn't matter who's in charge of the federal purse strings. There would be complaints and mistakes made regardless.
> 
> I, for one, would not be able to make the decision on who gets and who doesnt' get what amount and when. There are just too many bases to cover at the same time. I also note that no "better options" have been suggested yet.



Well there is always the pet Dipper idea of free basic income for everyone.


----------



## colchar

Milkman said:


> Lilley should work for Fox News.



Your ad hominem attack aside, can you refute what he said? Didn't think so.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> Well there is always the pet Dipper idea of free basic income for everyone.


A live able one, why not.


----------



## Guitar101

Electraglide said:


> If you get OAS then you'll get the $300. Income has no bearing on OAS.....when I went from working to being retired my OAS didn't change.
> Old Age Security-Eligibility - Canada.ca
> GIS is income related. If your yearly income not including OAS is more than $18,599 you don't get GIS. Other than that it varies based on what your income for the previous year was which is based on your income tax return. I question this, "Many such persons would usually have adult children to take care of certain things for them, and defray some kinds of costs," but that's based on people I know and family.


There is a clawback figure for OAS. I could look it up but it's around $77000 for 2019.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> Well there is always the pet Dipper idea of free basic income for everyone.


I don't know how that would work, or how it's supposed to work. Even then, a lot of things look good on paper, then it all falls apart when trying to put it into practise. I've been broke most of my life and will probably die that way, so, there is my credibility shot to shit on the topic of finances. I figure I'm warm in the winter, I got a roof over my head and I eat pretty well. It's hard to complain when your belly is full, but I somehow manage a way.


----------



## Doug Gifford

MY LOCKDOWN EXPERIENCE SO FAR

My virus lockdown experience: this has been almost completely very pleasant. I have no income but my wife does. I never made much anyway. Everybody's home but we're pretty friction-free. And mama seems to have developed a taste for horizontal recreation with variations. I'm especially enjoying the sense that there's nothing much I can do except be a housedad, so I can do mostly what I please as long as there's food on the table.

I spent much of the afternoon recording a video and then made an error and lost it while I was transferring from iPad to MacBook. And I really don't care. I can do it again tomorrow. For me, the lockdown is a relaxed and happy place.

But… I have no actual connection to anyone affected by the virus. No friends, nobody I know -- for all the evidence of my own senses, it could be a complete fraud. Of course I know it isn't and that nibbles at the fringes of my oblivion. I take all precautions but am aware that I could die rather horribly at any time (given two weeks notice, thanks a lot). Aside from the unpleasant death part, and most are, I've had a good life and won't regret much. Meanwhile, there's nothing to do but nothing and I've trained much of my life for just that.


----------



## colchar

2020 U.S. Quarters Have Bats on Them, Worst Timing Ever


----------



## Doug Gifford

Choirs may have to remain silent long after society reopens


----------



## Electraglide

Guitar101 said:


> There is a clawback figure for OAS. I could look it up but it's around $77000 for 2019.


You loose 15 cents per dollar over $76,000 until you hit $123,000 or so and then you don't get anything. When I was getting CPP and OAS and working I was getting close to loosing 15 cents. If I was making $77,000 now I wouldn't worry about the clawback.


----------



## colchar

Electraglide said:


> A live able one, why not.



Well unless a magical money tree appears, it is unaffordable.


----------



## mhammer

Doug Gifford said:


> MY LOCKDOWN EXPERIENCE SO FAR
> 
> My virus lockdown experience: this has been almost completely very pleasant. I have no income but my wife does. I never made much anyway. Everybody's home but we're pretty friction-free. And mama seems to have developed a taste for horizontal recreation with variations. I'm especially enjoying the sense that there's nothing much I can do except be a housedad, so I can do mostly what I please as long as there's food on the table.
> 
> I spent much of the afternoon recording a video and then made an error and lost it while I was transferring from iPad to MacBook. And I really don't care. I can do it again tomorrow. For me, the lockdown is a relaxed and happy place.
> 
> But… I have no actual connection to anyone affected by the virus. No friends, nobody I know -- for all the evidence of my own senses, it could be a complete fraud. Of course I know it isn't and that nibbles at the fringes of my oblivion. I take all precautions but am aware that I could die rather horribly at any time (given two weeks notice, thanks a lot). Aside from the unpleasant death part, and most are, I've had a good life and won't regret much. Meanwhile, there's nothing to do but nothing and I've trained much of my life for just that.


You have to wonder about those folks living on those several hundred of the "thousand" islands.


----------



## boyscout

Doug Gifford said:


> mama seems to have developed a taste for horizontal recreation with variations.


Do you mean yoga?

Our experience is similar to yours, so far comfortable and not (yet) threatened and (touch wood) same for our kids. We don't even know anyone in dire straits, but we do believe they are out there and can guess at the fear and pain and disruption they are suffering. Those things may still come to many more of us, but hopefully it won't seem worse than dying of Covid-19.


----------



## davetcan

vadsy said:


> you’re the boss. and I myself appreciate a little leniency from time to time
> 
> Carry on


Mighty white of you!

Oh wait, your avatar ........................


----------



## keto

Might be about time for a new thread again.


----------



## davetcan

colchar said:


> Well there is always the pet Dipper idea of free basic income for everyone.





Jim DaddyO said:


> I don't know how that would work,


It might work if it was accompanied by mandatory basic work.


----------



## davetcan

keto said:


> Might be about time for a new thread again.


----------



## Doug Gifford

mhammer said:


> You have to wonder about those folks living on those several hundred of the "thousand" islands.


Mostly they're still at home in Toronto, Montreal, New York… Until some time this week, the boat ramps have been closed.Don't know about the US side of the river.


----------



## laristotle

Milkman said:


> COVID-19 Updates and *general Trolling*
> 
> As the other thread is now too polluted with bickering I'd like to try a new thread.
> 
> I'm hoping we can keep it helpful and informative but that takes everybody's (including myself) effort.


That's quite the confusing invitation for someone, say a new forum member, to encounter on first read.


----------



## Milkman

laristotle said:


> That's quite the confusing invitation for someone, say a new forum member, to encounter on first read.



As long as they can read, they'll figure it out fairly quickly.

It goes something like this.

Someone posts a shitty jab at our Prime Minister. I comment on that (falling as I too often do for a troll), and someone else acuses me of politicizing the thread.

That's the gist of it.

I give up.


----------



## boyscout

Information and estimates out of one district in Spain about Covid-19. Includes age data that @keto has been seeking. Highlights: 

- Quarantined people trended to higher infection rates (about 19% higher) than those active and working

- People over the age of 60 trended to higher infection rates (about 27% higher) than those younger than 60.

- Infection rate can be estimated to have been much higher than the "confirmed cases" rate, possibly as high as 5%, whereas "confirmed cases" are only about 0.6%.

This information revealed by widespread *antibody testing* - Canada won't start seeing information like this for MONTHS thanks to some of Health Canada's many bureaucratic failings. 

It's information - not answers yet - but information that will lead to answers. For example it's unlikely that quarantining caused infections (leading to the higher infection rate). It's more likely that more quarantined people were older people more susceptible to the virus, but some may claim the information as evidence that lockdowns don't work.


----------



## keto

boyscout said:


> Information and estimates out of one district in Spain about Covid-19. Includes age data that @keto has been seeking. Highlights:
> 
> - Quarantined people trended to higher infection rates (about 19% higher) than those active and working
> 
> - People over the age of 60 trended to higher infection rates (about 27% higher) than those younger than 60.
> 
> This information revealed by widespread *antibody testing* - Canada won't start seeing information like this for MONTHS thanks to some of Health Canada's many bureaucratic failings.
> 
> It's information - not answers yet - but information that will lead to answers. For example it's unlikely that quarantining caused infections (leading to the higher infection rate). It's more likely that more quarantined people were older people more susceptible to the virus, but some may claim the information as evidence that lockdowns don't work.


I might at some point be interested enough to run all the words thru a translator. What I really care about is deaths broken down by age and if possible with underlying conditions, as nobody has tested enough to know infection rates/death rates. If that's up there, maybe someone can point it out for me.


----------



## colchar

davetcan said:


> It might work if it was accompanied by mandatory basic work.



Perhaps, but then the Dippers would cry about people being forced to work. Remember, some of their members believe that paid work is dehumanizing.


----------



## colchar

keto said:


> I might at some point be interested enough to run all the words thru a translator. What I really care about is deaths broken down by age and if possible with underlying conditions, as nobody has tested enough to know infection rates/death rates. If that's up there, maybe someone can point it out for me.



We'll probably never know about the underlying conditions issue. First, because coroners in some areas (NYC, Italy, Spain) would likely be too overwhelmed to perform autopsies on everyone. Second, because even if one had an underlying condition it might not have played any role in their death.


----------



## allthumbs56

keto said:


> I might at some point be interested enough to run all the words thru a translator. What I really care about is deaths broken down by age and if possible with underlying conditions, as nobody has tested enough to know infection rates/death rates. If that's up there, maybe someone can point it out for me.


Ontario provides death by age in fairly broad age groups if it helps (page 8 - Severity)

https://files.ontario.ca/moh-covid-19-report-en-2020-05-14.pdf


----------



## davetcan

It's beginning to look like the new disease that's showing up in young children is definitely linked to Covid. This will make opening schools too early to be pretty risky.

Deadly New COVID-Linked Syndrome Identified in Over 10 Mass. Kids


----------



## colchar

Apparently we can afford a universal income, at least according to this idiotic letter to the editor:


Financial security for all? Our affluent society can afford it


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> Apparently we can afford a universal income, at least according to this idiotic letter to the editor:
> 
> 
> Financial security for all? Our affluent society can afford it


Doesn't seem to be a complete thought. He starts talking about 2008 in the last paragraph and then just stops - making no argument whatsoever. Poorly written. 

Regardless, I'd like to counter that a $251 billion deficit is pretty convincing evidence that we CANNOT afford such a thing.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> Apparently we can afford a universal income, at least according to this idiotic letter to the editor:
> 
> 
> Financial security for all? Our affluent society can afford it



Canada isn't even handling the government pension plan well right now...or maybe even ever. How are they going to apply something like universal income?

I didn't read the letter BTW.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> Canada isn't even handling the government pension plan well right now...or maybe even ever. *How are they going to apply something like universal income*?
> 
> I didn't read the letter BTW.


A new department? Maybe a new ministry?


----------



## Electraglide

boyscout said:


> Information and estimates out of one district in Spain about Covid-19. Includes age data that @keto has been seeking. Highlights:
> 
> - Quarantined people trended to higher infection rates (about 19% higher) than those active and working
> 
> - People over the age of 60 trended to higher infection rates (about 27% higher) than those younger than 60.
> 
> - Infection rate can be estimated to have been much higher than the "confirmed cases" rate, possibly as high as 5%, whereas "confirmed cases" are only about 0.6%.
> 
> This information revealed by widespread *antibody testing* - Canada won't start seeing information like this for MONTHS thanks to some of Health Canada's many bureaucratic failings.
> 
> It's information - not answers yet - but information that will lead to answers. For example it's unlikely that quarantining caused infections (leading to the higher infection rate). It's more likely that more quarantined people were older people more susceptible to the virus, but some may claim the information as evidence that lockdowns don't work.


From the looks of it, after a certain age.....looks like it affects women a bit more than it does men.


----------



## allthumbs56

Electraglide said:


> From the looks of it, after a certain age.....looks like it affects women a bit more than it does men.


I used to entertain in the nursing and seniors homes. There was typically 10 women for each man. I never figured out whether he was blessed or cursed but I'm pretty sure that a virus that is hitting the homes of the elderly is gonna be hitting mostly women because they're the ones left alive at that age.


----------



## davetcan

Surely those quarantined were quarantined because there was a chance they had been exposed to the virus? Wouldn't that explain the numbers?



boyscout said:


> Information and estimates out of one district in Spain about Covid-19. Includes age data that @keto has been seeking. Highlights:
> 
> - Quarantined people trended to higher infection rates (about 19% higher) than those active and working
> 
> - People over the age of 60 trended to higher infection rates (about 27% higher) than those younger than 60.
> 
> - Infection rate can be estimated to have been much higher than the "confirmed cases" rate, possibly as high as 5%, whereas "confirmed cases" are only about 0.6%.
> 
> This information revealed by widespread *antibody testing* - Canada won't start seeing information like this for MONTHS thanks to some of Health Canada's many bureaucratic failings.
> 
> It's information - not answers yet - but information that will lead to answers. For example it's unlikely that quarantining caused infections (leading to the higher infection rate). It's more likely that more quarantined people were older people more susceptible to the virus, but some may claim the information as evidence that lockdowns don't work.


----------



## boyscout

davetcan said:


> Surely those quarantined were quarantined because there was a chance they had been exposed to the virus? Wouldn't that explain the numbers?


I don't read Spanish well enough to know whether "quarantine", "lockdown" and "self-isolation" were interchangeable terms in Spain. Formal legal quarantine would very likely be people known to have been exposed but if the term includes the other two then the ages of those included would likely tend to be higher, right?

As I said in the previous post it's information (data) so far and not answers, but it's the beginning of understanding more.


----------



## allthumbs56

boyscout said:


> I don't read Spanish well enough to know whether "quarantine", "lockdown" and "self-isolation" were interchangeable terms in Spain. Formal legal quarantine would very likely be people known to have been exposed but if the term includes the other two then the ages of those included would likely tend to be higher, right?
> 
> As I said in the previous post it's information (data) so far and not answers, but it's the beginning of understanding more.


As a non spanish speaking guitar player the first thing I tried to figure out that chord they named "EDAD"


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> I didn't read the letter BTW.



You didn't miss much. Apparently we're loaded so should have a guaranteed minimum income because it has succeeded everywhere else it has been tried.


----------



## colchar

Electraglide said:


> From the looks of it, after a certain age.....looks like it affects women a bit more than it does men.



I wonder if that might be because men tend to die earlier than women so there are more women than men in the older age groups?


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> As a non spanish speaking guitar player the first thing I tried to figure out that chord they named "EDAD"



That wasn't a chord, they just misspelled 'dead'.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> You didn't miss much. Apparently we're loaded so should have a guaranteed minimum income because it has succeeded everywhere else it has been tried.



That's what I figured. I noticed you used the sarcasm font in that post...lol.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

They are going to try and open up Ontario a bit. Personally, I think it's a little soon. Other places that have tried, Germany for example, are seeing some down side to doing that. New cases in Wuhan also. I hope everyone will have the good sense to take reasonable precautions. Smaller towns and vacation destinations don't look like they are too happy about it. Some are informing visiting cottagers to bring all the supplies they need with them so they are not exposing them to anything cottagers bring with them. 

My dog does need a haircut though. Got an appointment for next week, but the way it's set up is pretty good for that distancing thing to happen. Huron County hasn't had a case in 11 or 12 days now, so I am feeling a little relieved about that.


----------



## _Azrael

Jim DaddyO said:


> They are going to try and open up Ontario a bit. Personally, I think it's a little soon. Other places that have tried, Germany for example, are seeing some down side to doing that. New cases in Wuhan also. I hope everyone will have the good sense to take reasonable precautions. Smaller towns and vacation destinations don't look like they are too happy about it. Some are informing visiting cottagers to bring all the supplies they need with them so they are not exposing them to anything cottagers bring with them.
> 
> My dog does need a haircut though. Got an appointment for next week, but the way it's set up is pretty good for that distancing thing to happen. Huron County hasn't had a case in 11 or 12 days now, so I am feeling a little relieved about that.


In fairness, the goal is to flatten the curve so that they didn’t exceed the medical system’s capacity. Since we seem to be well within the system’s capacity it makes sense that they slowly open the gates.

I think the bigger problem is the media’s inability to cope with a 14-21 day decision making cycle. They need to create a new controversy every 24 hours or so to keep generating ad revenue and COVID isn’t keeping pace.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

_Azrael said:


> In fairness, the goal is to flatten the curve so that they didn’t exceed the medical system’s capacity. Since we seem to be well within the system’s capacity it makes sense that they slowly open the gates.


I agree with your assessment.
For me though, I am going to keep my head low and try not to take advantage of the hospitality available at the hospital. Even though they can probably accomodate me now. It just doesn't sound like a fun time to me.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Jim DaddyO said:


> …Smaller towns and vacation destinations don't look like they are too happy about it. Some are informing visiting cottagers to bring all the supplies they need with them so they are not exposing them to anything cottagers bring with them. …


No kidding! I believe we're active-case-free at the moment (last I read…) and an influx of cottagers and tourists would basically bring a wave of infection and death. On the other hand, tourism is how we make a living. I worked on the tour boat dock last summer and should have gone back to work late April. It will, with luck, be early July but many or most of the passengers were international traveler and most of them from Asia. And public music? Maybe never, don't know. Gananoque will take this on the chin for sure.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> That's what I figured. I noticed you used the sarcasm font in that post...lol.



On another forum it became accepted practice to use purple for sarcasm. Maybe we need to do something similar here.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> I wonder if that might be because men tend to die earlier than women so there are more women than men in the older age groups?


If you check it you'll see that the age where sick women start to out number men is in the 15 to 19 year old group. Not too sure what the age ratio of men to women over 75 is in Spain. I wonder if there is something that tells the ages and sexes of those who died in Spain form Covid.


----------



## Electraglide

allthumbs56 said:


> I used to entertain in the nursing and seniors homes. There was typically 10 women for each man. I never figured out whether he was blessed or cursed but I'm pretty sure that a virus that is hitting the homes of the elderly is gonna be hitting mostly women because they're the ones left alive at that age.


Not too sure how many nursing and seniors homes there are in Spain and those numbers in the Spanish thing cover all ages.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> That wasn't a chord, they just misspelled 'dead'.


edad means age but it could be the lost chord everyone used to search for.


----------



## laristotle

colchar said:


> use purple for sarcasm. Maybe we need to do something similar here.


great idea.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> On another forum it became accepted practice to use purple for sarcasm. Maybe we need to do something similar here.


I use the dark responsive theme, purple is a bit hard to read. A good idea but no one would be able to read any of my posts if it's too dark....lol


----------



## JBFairthorne

Jim DaddyO said:


> They are going to try and open up Ontario a bit. Personally, I think it's a little soon. Other places that have tried, Germany for example, are seeing some down side to doing that. New cases in Wuhan also. I hope everyone will have the good sense to take reasonable precautions. Smaller towns and vacation destinations don't look like they are too happy about it. Some are informing visiting cottagers to bring all the supplies they need with them so they are not exposing them to anything cottagers bring with them.
> 
> My dog does need a haircut though. Got an appointment for next week, but the way it's set up is pretty good for that distancing thing to happen. Huron County hasn't had a case in 11 or 12 days now, so I am feeling a little relieved about that.


If I owned a cottage, paid property taxes and was a financially supporting member of a vacation community for a portion of the year and they told me to bring everything I needed with me...I would do exactly that and never spend another dollar in that town. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

JBFairthorne said:


> If I owned a cottage, paid property taxes and was a financially supporting member of a vacation community for a portion of the year and they told me to bring everything I needed with me...I would do exactly that and never spend another dollar in that town. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you.



Fair point. But (there's always a but, isn't there?) if you recall the O'Leary boat collision story, they interviewed some of the local mechants, who claim they never saw him (or many of the other big cottage owners) shopping locally and supporting local business anyway. They bring what they want/need from Toronto with them. Some of these businesses, in the most high rent part of the Muskoka's, are close to closing as many small lots are almalgamated into large "compounds" for the ultra weathy, and they don't support local businesses. Even most of the construction/maintenance is done by "out of towners". 

I can't say if the locals business practices are so poor that they can't keep or obtain customers. That may very well be the case, but they seem to be suffering from the areas success.


----------



## JBFairthorne

I find it unlikely that they don’t spend anything in town. They certainly aren’t lugging around 40 jerry cans of boat fuel from Toronto. I also doubt they never eat a meal out. The ultra rich probably have someone shopping for them. Sure they may bring some specialty items with them but I’m sure they must run out of milk and bread from time to time.


----------



## Doug Gifford

JBFairthorne said:


> If I owned a cottage, paid property taxes and was a financially supporting member of a vacation community for a portion of the year and they told me to bring everything I needed with me...I would do exactly that and never spend another dollar in that town. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you.


We should *always* be grateful to the wealthy, even when they bring us sickness and death.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Interesting write up on one of the studies going on. The sequencing of the genome which is providing insights on how it is moving around the world.

The coronavirus is constantly mutating — and that can help us track it


----------



## JBFairthorne

If you make your living in retail you can’t have it both ways. As with many jobs you have to take the good with the bad. If you have the balls to tell your long time customers to stop shopping there because of potential risk you can’t bitch when they decide not to shop there after things blow over. Why should a customer be there for YOU when you’re not there for THEM? If I was that concerned about things to tell customers I didn’t want their business...right now, then then I would likely close the doors to everyone, not just a segment of my customer base.

It always amazes me when people in retail or service industries forget that the customer is the entire reason that your business exists.


----------



## Distortion

Doug Gifford said:


> We should *always* be grateful to our wealthy overlords, even when they bring us sickness and death.


Don't believe the hype. No cases in Kingston or Belleville ?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

On the good news front. They have found that there is good response of T cells to Covid 19 in many people. This will help in the development of a vaccine.

T cells found in COVID-19 patients ‘bode well’ for long-term immunity


----------



## Jim Wellington

JBFairthorne said:


> If I owned a cottage, paid property taxes and was a financially supporting member of a vacation community for a portion of the year and they told me to bring everything I needed with me...I would do exactly that and never spend another dollar in that town. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you.



I live in one of those towns... considering present circumstances, IMHO very few care about your money. We have a very low infection rate here, and would like to keep it that way if possible. The way this problem is being managed, tourism is dead this year anyways. I dont expect alot of seasonal business to make it...can`t help that.


----------



## Jim DaddyO




----------



## Doug Gifford

"The KFLA Health Unit, serving a population of about 215,000, reports today that there have been a total of 59 confirmed cases with 56 of them already declared “resolved”. Our health unit has recorded no COVID-19 deaths. No COVID-19 patients are currently in our ICU or on a ventilator. In the last three weeks there have been only four newly-confirmed cases. " from Dr. John Geddes' blog. johnageddes

He goes on to say: "As long as we remain somewhat cloistered as a community, our risks of infection are lower than many other areas that have been more heavily infected. But how long can we remain isolated as people start to travel a bit more widely to visit family or students return to Kingston or folks take a bit of a vacation in the summer outside our area?"

The only covid-19 cases in Gananoque that I'm aware of brought it back from Florida. Luckily, they followed the rules and quarantined themselves on arrival --- they did *not* go shopping as some infamously did as soon as they crossed the border. Snowbirds shop in city, refusing to self-isolate | Brockville Recorder ...https://www.recorder.ca › news › local-news › snowbirds-shop-in-city-refu...


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Doug Gifford said:


> "The KFLA Health Unit, serving a population of about 215,000, reports today that there have been a total of 59 confirmed cases with 56 of them already declared “resolved”. Our health unit has recorded no COVID-19 deaths. No COVID-19 patients are currently in our ICU or on a ventilator. In the last three weeks there have been only four newly-confirmed cases. " from Dr. John Geddes' blog. johnageddes
> 
> He goes on to say: "As long as we remain somewhat cloistered as a community, our risks of infection are lower than many other areas that have been more heavily infected. But how long can we remain isolated as people start to travel a bit more widely to visit family or students return to Kingston or folks take a bit of a vacation in the summer outside our area?"



It's been a couple of weeks almost here since a new case. Luckily, not much of a tourist area. Mostly farmers who are busy in their fields right now instead of taking trips. We do have some road/infrastructure construction going on, so there are some folks travelling here from other places. I think they are a bit too busy to be socializing much, I hope.


----------



## gtrguy

JBFairthorne said:


> If I owned a cottage, paid property taxes and was a financially supporting member of a vacation community for a portion of the year and they told me to bring everything I needed with me...I would do exactly that and never spend another dollar in that town. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you.


You make it sound like this is something they want to do... obviously they'd rather have the business but in this situation they're simply making what they feel is the responsible choice to protect themselves and their customers.


----------



## laristotle

JBFairthorne said:


> If you have the balls to tell your long time customers to stop shopping there


If I'm not mistaken, it was the Mayors of these towns and Premier Ford that are saying 'stay away'.
I'm sure that store proprietors are also taking the same precautions (shields on the counter, six foot markers on the floor etc) as they do down here in the big cities.


----------



## mhammer

Doug Gifford said:


> "The KFLA Health Unit, serving a population of about 215,000, reports today that there have been a total of 59 confirmed cases with 56 of them already declared “resolved”. Our health unit has recorded no COVID-19 deaths. No COVID-19 patients are currently in our ICU or on a ventilator. In the last three weeks there have been only four newly-confirmed cases. " from Dr. John Geddes' blog. johnageddes
> 
> He goes on to say: "As long as we remain somewhat cloistered as a community, our risks of infection are lower than many other areas that have been more heavily infected. But how long can we remain isolated as people start to travel a bit more widely to visit family or students return to Kingston or folks take a bit of a vacation in the summer outside our area?"
> 
> The only covid-19 cases in Gananoque that I'm aware of brought it back from Florida. Luckily, they followed the rules and quarantined themselves on arrival --- they did *not* go shopping as some infamously did as soon as they crossed the border. Snowbirds shop in city, refusing to self-isolate | Brockville Recorder ...https://www.recorder.ca › news › local-news › snowbirds-shop-in-city-refu...


Not to excuse any truly irresponsible behaviour, but if someone had been away for a lengthy period, there would likely be nothing fresh or perishable in their home. Some folks are the type that might have plenty in the freezer, "just in case", but not all that many. If return was to be accompanied by an extended period of quarantine, that person has to restock their fridge/pantry so as to be able to _remain_ isolated for the required period. You can't just have the border guard wave you through and immediately go home, close the door for 2 weeks, and order pizza to be dropped off at the doorstep every day. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to have been any sort of formal protocol or checklist, or well-publicized service for providing for that isolation capacity. I imagine some folks have nearby family or friends with a key to their home whom they could contact and ask to pick up this and that and stick it in the fridge or cupboard. But for the most part, I would imagine that most had to improvise. Not surprising that some of their improvisation was haphazard and riskier than it should have been. And perhaps, if someone had been wintering in Florida, where isolation standards have been lax, a 3-day drive back north might not have been enough to adapt to the more cautious standards here.


----------



## Doug Gifford

mhammer said:


> …You can't just have the border guard wave you through and immediately go home, close the door for 2 weeks, and order pizza to be dropped off at the doorstep every day.…


I could do that. Maybe mix in some Chinese and Indian… Support the local restaurants and avoid accidentally killing your neighbours. It's a win-win choice.

My sister & husband winter in Florida and their children (and me) begged them to come home early. They were glad they did. There was, indeed, a sense down there that the problem had been exaggerated and would probably just go away. They also have children nearby (in Arnprior) who could drop off food, and that's how they dealt with it.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Middle and high school students in N.B. to process lobster amid temporary foreign worker ban | CBC News

Wouldn't it be nice if this stuck? Get back to actually working and save for school etc.


----------



## colchar

JBFairthorne said:


> If I owned a cottage, paid property taxes and was a financially supporting member of a vacation community for a portion of the year and they told me to bring everything I needed with me...I would do exactly that and never spend another dollar in that town. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you.



I saw the mayor of Norfolk on TV yesterday. For those who don't know, she and her council enacted a bylaw that fines cottagers $500 per day for being in their cottages. But I notice they haven't given those cottage owners a discount or refund on their property taxes. If yuo are taking property taxes from them fuck you, they get to use those properties.


----------



## colchar

Doug Gifford said:


> We should *always* be grateful to the wealthy, even when they bring us sickness and death.



Only 0.19% of Canadians have tested positive for the virus and only 0.014% have died of it (in Ontario the numbers are 0.15% and 0.012%) so they are hardly bringing you sickness and death are they?

If you don't want them coming, refund the property taxes that they pay and from which you benefit year round.


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> You deeply misunderstand what I've posted. My stance is identical to that of Health Canada in that antibody tests are important and useful, but NOT the get-out-of-jail-free card that some think it is for the precise reasons HC has expressed. We need to know more abut the relationship between antibodies and virus susceptibility, in addition to producing more sensitive and accurate antibody tests. Sadly, the desire to "go back to normal" persuades many that having some level of positive antibody presence on a serological test allows that to happen. The word I've highlighted in red questions that, and so do I.
> 
> When climbing a tree, it's best to stay on the thickest branches, no matter how appealing the fruit at the end of the twigs may be.



Health Canada has its head up its collective ass so you shouldn't be crowing about saying the same as them.

The governments and health authorities in Britain, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, the US, Japan, and much of the rest of Europe approved these tests long before Health Canada did. I highly doubt Health Canada is somehow smarter than any of those other bodies, and certainly isn't smarter than them collectively.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

JBFairthorne said:


> If you make your living in retail you can’t have it both ways. As with many jobs you have to take the good with the bad. If you have the balls to tell your long time customers to stop shopping there because of potential risk you can’t bitch when they decide not to shop there after things blow over. Why should a customer be there for YOU when you’re not there for THEM? If I was that concerned about things to tell customers I didn’t want their business...right now, then then I would likely close the doors to everyone, not just a segment of my customer base.
> 
> It always amazes me when people in retail or service industries forget that the customer is the entire reason that your business exists.


Each small business will have it's own set of challenges. I am sure that all of them (including us) would like to get back to normal, I don't see that happening for a very long time and given some circumstances, never. The nature of our business and the size of the shop are 2 main factors. We were primarily a seasonal business to begin with, the cold months being the good ones and the summer being very slow. On top of that a vast majority of our income was tied to travel, weddings, graduations.... all of which have been essentially stopped and will be very, very slow to recover. Then comes the guidelines that must be followed. Physical distances is essentially impossible for small shops, 1600 sq ft and sometimes 800 sq ft given the requirements. Places like hairdressers are typically stingy on floor space. They don't need huge waiting rooms or huge spaces inside. our shop is 1100 sq ft and consists of a an entry, small waiting area and a long hallway that leads to 8 small rooms.

You could never have more then one employee working at the same time, never have 2 people in the waiting area. That would mean a total change in operating, we operate best when we are running people in and out of those rooms, the more the better. If you try to circumvent the distancing and someone get's sick, you open yourself up to not only relentless social media condemnation but also to potential lawsuits.

Like I said, every single small business out there will have it's own set of challenges. In our case, we are pretty much screwed. There has also been not one dime of assistance offered to small, mom and pop shops either at the provincial or federal levels. We don't meet any of the requirements. I would also never take out a loan based on pure speculation as to when and if this nightmare ever ends. There comes a time where you need to look at the cards in your hands and right now all I have is a pair of deuces.


----------



## colchar

Milkman said:


> *Brazilian cities move toward lockdowns as COVID-19 crisis intensifies | CBC News*
> 
> 
> *President downplays risk*
> Brazil had more than 177,000 confirmed cases as of Tuesday, with the actual figure believed to be much higher because of limited testing. Many intensive-care hospital units are full and cemeteries are increasingly overwhelmed with bodies.
> 
> Bolsonaro, who called the virus a "little flu," has insisted for more than a month that governors are stoking economic carnage with voluntary quarantine recommendations and urges Brazilians to go about their everyday lives. He reiterated criticism of governors Tuesday for ignoring his decree that gyms, barbershops and beauty salons should be treated as essential services.



I saw him on the news last night. He would be hilarious if it wasn't so dangerous.


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> Health Canada has its head up its collective ass so you shouldn't be crowing about saying the same as them.
> 
> The governments and health authorities in Britain, Germany, Australia, New Zealand, the US, Japan, and much of the rest of Europe approved these tests long before Health Canada did. I highly doubt Health Canada is somehow smarter than any of those other bodies, and certainly isn't smarter than them collectively.


a) You're assuming that they all approved the exact same tests for exact same purposes. "Approval" is not "approval" is not "approval". For instance, when the swab issue was identified, HC had initially "approved" the Spartan Bioscience tests, but then restricted approval for research purposes only.
b) Evidence takes a while to accumulate, and promising evidence is often out well ahead of contraindicating evidence. Something can be approved on the basis of "what we know now", and then new evidence comes in that suggests one shouldn't be so quick to give the go-ahead. Public agencies that do their evaluation even a little later may have just cause to be more hesitant.

Don't be so quick to pass judgement in wholesale fashion.


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> I saw him on the news last night. He would be hilarious if it wasn't so dangerous.


I watched an interview with the former Brazilian Health Minister yesterday. Perplexing in that he resigned due to strong disagreements with Bolsonaro, yet his comments in the interview seemed to lean in Bolsonaro's direction. Weird, and confusing. Not sure what to think about it. But yes, Bolsonaro is a threat to his country.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Oh, those Dutch!!

Find lockdown ‘sex buddy’, Dutch singles advised


----------



## colchar

Doug Gifford said:


> Oh, those Dutch!!
> 
> Find lockdown ‘sex buddy’, Dutch singles advised



In Wales and Scotland the guys have sheep, in Greece they have their brothers. Glad to see the Dutch taking another approach.


----------



## Wardo

Sounds like a fuckdown all round.


----------



## Distortion

Doug Gifford said:


> Oh, those Dutch!!
> 
> Find lockdown ‘sex buddy’, Dutch singles advised


good deal just post your picture and a contact number.No BS


----------



## Distortion

colchar said:


> I saw the mayor of Norfolk on TV yesterday. For those who don't know, she and her council enacted a bylaw that fines cottagers $500 per day for being in their cottages..


well the mayor of the county next door better get out his card because he is living in his cottage at Turkey point in Norfolk county. He owns a house in Caledonia also.

Norfolk also has a by law that you can not park on the side of any rural road.


----------



## tdotrob

On the lighter side! My wife is so bored she took to colouring. Great covid time passer here.









First completed page. These are actual real photos of real people haha


----------



## mhammer

GuitarsCanada said:


> Each small business will have it's own set of challenges. I am sure that all of them (including us) would like to get back to normal, I don't see that happening for a very long time and given some circumstances, never. The nature of our business and the size of the shop are 2 main factors. We were primarily a seasonal business to begin with, the cold months being the good ones and the summer being very slow. On top of that a vast majority of our income was tied to travel, weddings, graduations.... all of which have been essentially stopped and will be very, very slow to recover. Then comes the guidelines that must be followed. Physical distances is essentially impossible for small shops, 1600 sq ft and sometimes 800 sq ft given the requirements. Places like hairdressers are typically stingy on floor space. They don't need huge waiting rooms or huge spaces inside. our shop is 1100 sq ft and consists of a an entry, small waiting area and a long hallway that leads to 8 small rooms.
> 
> You could never have more then one employee working at the same time, never have 2 people in the waiting area. That would mean a total change in operating, we operate best when we are running people in and out of those rooms, the more the better. If you try to circumvent the distancing and someone get's sick, you open yourself up to not only relentless social media condemnation but also to potential lawsuits.
> 
> Like I said, every single small business out there will have it's own set of challenges. In our case, we are pretty much screwed. There has also been not one dime of assistance offered to small, mom and pop shops either at the provincial or federal levels. We don't meet any of the requirements. I would also never take out a loan based on pure speculation as to when and if this nightmare ever ends. There comes a time where you need to look at the cards in your hands and right now all I have is a pair of deuces.


Nice summary and exploration of the logistical challenges. Tip o' the hat to ya.
Of course, any business that rents space, as opposed to being big enough to construct their desired space, will often select their place of business based on what they can get for their rent money, anticipated cash flow, and what is at least reasonably compatible with their business needs, pending a bit of renovation. What they most certainly don't factor in is how compatible the space and business is with social distancing requirements, should a pandemic happen to be passing through some day.
As for federal or provincial help, the past month has been a cascade of "We thought we had included enough, but now that it has been drawn to out attention, we're adding _this_." So I'm not predicting any cavalry-to-the-rescue for you, but the way things have been constantly tweaked as the economic repercussions of ignoring X or Y are highlighted, it would not surprise me if something was added for small business owners like yourself. The question is really whether it would be introduced while things are still remediable, or simply too late to save businesses, no matter how well-intentioned. I hope it's the former.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

mhammer said:


> Nice summary and exploration of the logistical challenges. Tip o' the hat to ya.
> Of course, any business that rents space, as opposed to being big enough to construct their desired space, will often select their place of business based on what they can get for their rent money, anticipated cash flow, and what is at least reasonably compatible with their business needs, pending a bit of renovation. What they most certainly don't factor in is how compatible the space and business is with social distancing requirements, should a pandemic happen to be passing through some day.
> As for federal or provincial help, the past month has been a cascade of "We thought we had included enough, but now that it has been drawn to out attention, we're adding _this_." So I'm not predicting any cavalry-to-the-rescue for you, but the way things have been constantly tweaked as the economic repercussions of ignoring X or Y are highlighted, it would not surprise me if something was added for small business owners like yourself. The question is really whether it would be introduced while things are still remediable, or simply too late to save businesses, no matter how well-intentioned. I hope it's the former.


Again. Each owner has to really think hard about it. Can you recover? What's the timeframe? How deep are you in the hole now and how long can you hold out? Expectations of any payback for deferrals and how long that would take. Most importantly, what will be the recovery time? With us it could possibly be 2 years. We have to have travel back to pre pandemic levels if we are to have any chance. Our lease runs out in october of 2021. I can see nightmares of owing a ton of money with a closed business. So its pay me now or pay me later. No upside for me. We are already in the hole about 8k and June 1st you can add another 2k to that. That's not everyone. I am sure there are some in better shape and some worse. I just have a very bad feeling about pumping money into that business right now or taking out any kind of loan to keep it afloat. Someone is going to get stiffed and I am not holding my hand up. We did nothing wrong. Paid or rent on time and in full for 13 years as well as any other bills. I am prepared and willing to plead my case in court if necessary.


----------



## Wardo

Is the rent relief thing happening yet; landlord might see it as better to have 75% of the rent than no rent.

Our business has slowed but we have no new intake so there will be a big gap in about 1.5 to 2 years.

We have cut back on expenses but have about 5000 square feet of office space and 2000 would be more than enough right now. 

Today it was just me and 2 assistants in the place. Used to be a hive of activity kinda sad to see it empty.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Wardo said:


> Is the rent relief thing happening yet; landlord might see it as better to have 75% of the rent than no rent.
> 
> Our business has slowed but we have no new intake so there will be a big gap in about 1.5 to 2 years.
> 
> We have cut back on expenses but have about 5000 square feet of office space and 2000 would be more than enough right now.
> 
> Today it was just me and 2 assistants in the place. Used to be a hive of activity kinda sad to see it empty.


Our plaza is owned by Pizza Pizza. They are without a doubt the worst organization I have ever dealt with. The turnover there is horrendous. They offered us nothing. In fact they never even contacted me to check in on us until at least a month after we were closed. They tried to get the landlord relief thing but they cant because they dont have a mortgage on it. So not sure where it will end up but we simply cannot pay any rent. Money is just not there.


----------



## Wardo

Yeah, the mortgage thing is totally fucked and I don’t see how it is relevant. Same where I am but I’d have to do a title search on the property to see if there’s a mortgage no way the owner is gonna tell me if there is.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Wardo said:


> Yeah, the mortgage thing is totally fucked and I don’t see how it is relevant. Same where I am but I’d have to do a title search on the property to see if there’s a mortgage no way the owner is gonna tell me if there is.


Knowing all too well how Pizza Pizza operates it's a 50% chance they are lying as well. From what I have gathered there have not been a ton of takers on this landlord thing. Too many secrets can be revealed by it. There are certain pieces of info that would have to be turned over to the government.


----------



## Wardo

A lot of people are packing up and leaving our building - most probably incorporated so they will just take bankruptcy and the landlord won’t see a dime.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Wardo said:


> A lot of people are packing up and leaving our building - most probably incorporated so they will just take bankruptcy and the landlord won’t see a dime.


I am a SP and would not hesitate to claim bankruptcy. Not much they can take from me and I dont need credit. One thing for sure, I'm not going to be left holding the bag this time. Bankruptcy courts will be jammed for the next 5 years. Plus I have a feeling the courts are not going to look too far down at people that got caught in this through no fault of their own. With me, we would be talking about maybe 60k tops. Not really worth the time, years, and legal fees for a corporation not to mention the bad press.


----------



## keto

GuitarsCanada said:


> I am a SP and would not hesitate to claim bankruptcy. Not much they can take from me and I dont need credit. One thing for sure, I'm not going to be left holding the bag this time. Bankruptcy courts will be jammed for the next 5 years. Plus I have a feeling the courts are not going to look too far down at people that got caught in this through no fault of their own. With me, we would be talking about maybe 60k tops. Not really worth the time, years, and legal fees for a corporation not to mention the bad press.


Hopefully but on the other hand big corps tend to have lots of lawyers chasing $, comes with the terrritory. No investments you need to save from BK?? None of my business of course, just surprising tho I bet they'd also settle for a relative pittance.


----------



## Wardo

Flip a dime in the air and they’ll run after it.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

keto said:


> Hopefully but on the other hand big corps tend to have lots of lawyers chasing $, comes with the terrritory. No investments you need to save from BK?? None of my business of course, just surprising tho I bet they'd also settle for a relative pittance.


I have stocks but at the moment they are basically worthless. We sold the house 4 years ago. Plus they can only go after me. The wife never signed anything


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> Only 0.19% of Canadians have tested positive for the virus and only 0.014% have died of it (in Ontario the numbers are 0.15% and 0.012%) so they are hardly bringing you sickness and death are they?
> 
> If you don't want them coming, refund the property taxes that they pay and from which you benefit year round.


If you don't want them coming, buy them out.....at last years prices.


----------



## Electraglide

Doug Gifford said:


> Oh, those Dutch!!
> 
> Find lockdown ‘sex buddy’, Dutch singles advised


What good is having a sex buddy if you can't have sex? Telling each other stories and masturbating together.....but keep your distance....is only good for one day, two at the most.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> In Wales and Scotland the guys have sheep, in Greece they have their brothers. Glad to see the Dutch taking another approach.


Can't Greek if you have to stay 6' apart, but don't they have goats in Greece? Things should Pan out.


----------



## Eric Reesor

Electraglide said:


> Can't Greek if you have to stay 6' apart, but don't they have goats in Greece? Things should Pan out.


Your logic does not apply here don't forget this is a Pan demic and Pan does not social distance especially with goats. He does however put down the pipes when the urge calls.


----------



## Electraglide

Eric Reesor said:


> Your logic does not apply here don't forget this is a Pan demic and Pan does not social distance especially with goats. He does however put down the pipes when the urge calls.


Pan isn't human and neither are goats so no social distancing is needed. Look up the meaning of Greek in slang. Can't stay 6' apart.


----------



## Electraglide

'Society failed': Legault visits Montreal as Quebec becomes the world's seventh deadliest COVID-19 epicentre
Seventh. Says in here that "There are three times more seniors in long-term care homes in Quebec, per capita, “than anywhere else in the world,”


----------



## mhammer

Areas that are often, though not exclusively, most affected tend to be older cities, where people live very close together; often in apartments or flats, rather than single-unit dwellings. So much of Montreal is people stacked on top of people. Quebec City has some areas like that, and so does Toronto, but Montreal seems to have a much bigger share of the city that looks like this, compared to other places in Canada. Kinda hard to have a "granny flat" in the yard when you don't have a yard, so I can understand why a larger share of seniors end up in long-term care residences.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

I'm not sure if it was this thread that I commented that the meat industry is too consolodated and vulnerable to things like this virus cropping up. Seems others have the same view.

Why some think Canada's beef business needs more smaller players | CBC News


----------



## keto

Early early but promising vaccine data
Moderna reports positive data on early-stage coronavirus vaccine trial, shares surge


----------



## keto

Jim DaddyO said:


> I'm not sure if it was this thread that I commented that the meat industry is too consolodated and vulnerable to things like this virus cropping up. Seems others have the same view.
> 
> Why some think Canada's beef business needs more smaller players | CBC News


But they've regulated the shit out of the industry and driven out most of the small players, by requiring expensive upgrades, to where the guy in the article who can process on a small basis is really really rare any more. And I bet his meat has boutique cost.


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> I'm not sure if it was this thread that I commented that the meat industry is too consolodated and vulnerable to things like this virus cropping up. Seems others have the same view.
> 
> Why some think Canada's beef business needs more smaller players | CBC News


My own contention is that one of the things that will change in followup to this pandemic is a greater move towards self-sufficiency, where possible. NOT isolationism, and hopefully not protectionism, but some degree of independence in spite of, and _supplementing_, globalization. That most obviously includes not relying_ too_ heavily on foreign production, since such sources could vanish instantly due to a local epidemic, a fire, a natural disaster, geopolitical conflict, or some other reason. But as this meat example illustrates, it may also include moving _away from _concentrated production within a country as vast as this one. Outbreaks, wildfires, wildcat strikes, e.coli shutdowns, and other local events can jeopardize national access to some kinds of essentials, and having alternate suppliers delivers that self-sufficiency.

HOWEVER, as the article wisely and emphatically notes, the historical move towards larger, more centralized, production has been an outcome of the greater efficiencies and lower production costs it affords. That is, it gives us what we want: lotsa stuff for less money. So any move in the direction of self-sufficiency and de-centralization will entail some degree of cost. How much cost are consumers/citizens willing to tolerate, how much can they afford, and how will that increased cost be distributed? For instance, would wages be lowered or simply kept low in order for de-centralized production to be cost-effective and commodity costs not to rise? Would we shift our consumer tastes to facilitate lower production costs (e.g., all-ground-beef, all the time)? Would government subsidies or local tax incentives be necessary to distribute goods-production nationally? For me, at least, it has become clear that centralizing production of _anything_, whether within our country or in a few select other countries, can easily put maintenance of "a normal lifestyle" at risk. How much risk needs to be weighed. One shouldn't let the oppressiveness of the current pandemic colour one's thinking too much, but then one shouldn't pretend like it could never ever happen again and no adaptation is required. So what do we need to do to "protect" our desired way of life? How do we accurately assess the degree of risk? And how much are we willing to forfeit or put up with to mitigate that assessed risk? These are tough questions, not easily answered.


----------



## mhammer

keto said:


> Early early but promising vaccine data
> Moderna reports positive data on early-stage coronavirus vaccine trial, shares surge


Jeez, investors are a stupid fickle lot.
Fifteen people in each of the dosage groups with "data" for only 4 in each of the higher-dosage groups. 
Lemme ask you, if someone put out a call for volunteers to try out an experimental vaccine for a virus that has killed many, and seriously sickened more, whom do you think would volunteer? I'm sure they were paid, but there are some things people will not do for money, or will only do for money the company would rather not have to spend. Chances are pretty good, none of these volunteers have young children, or maybe any children at all. If it was thousands of people, one might possibly consider the trial vaccine as being tried out on a reasonable cross-section of the populace. But fifteen, and data for only 8 out of 45 volunteers?

We sit, like dogs tied by their leash to the bicycle stand outside the grocery store, our eyes lighting up any time another person exits. "Are you the one? Are they the one?".


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> My own contention is that one of the things that will change in followup to this pandemic is a greater move towards self-sufficiency, where possible. NOT isolationism, and hopefully not protectionism, but some degree of independence in spite of, and _supplementing_, globalization. That most obviously includes not relying_ too_ heavily on foreign production, since such sources could vanish instantly due to a local epidemic, a fire, a natural disaster, geopolitical conflict, or some other reason. But as this meat example illustrates, it may also include moving _away from _concentrated production within a country as vast as this one. Outbreaks, wildfires, wildcat strikes, e.coli shutdowns, and other local events can jeopardize national access to some kinds of essentials, and having alternate suppliers delivers that self-sufficiency.
> 
> HOWEVER, as the article wisely and emphatically notes, the historical move towards larger, more centralized, production has been an outcome of the greater efficiencies and lower production costs it affords. That is, it gives us what we want: lotsa stuff for less money. So any move in the direction of self-sufficiency and de-centralization will entail some degree of cost. How much cost are consumers/citizens willing to tolerate, how much can they afford, and how will that increased cost be distributed? For instance, would wages be lowered or simply kept low in order for de-centralized production to be cost-effective and commodity costs not to rise? Would we shift our consumer tastes to facilitate lower production costs (e.g., all-ground-beef, all the time)? Would government subsidies or local tax incentives be necessary to distribute goods-production nationally? For me, at least, it has become clear that centralizing production of _anything_, whether within our country or in a few select other countries, can easily put maintenance of "a normal lifestyle" at risk. How much risk needs to be weighed. One shouldn't let the oppressiveness of the current pandemic colour one's thinking too much, but then one shouldn't pretend like it could never ever happen again and no adaptation is required. So what do we need to do to "protect" our desired way of life? How do we accurately assess the degree of risk? And how much are we willing to forfeit or put up with to mitigate that assessed risk? These are tough questions, not easily answered.



Some astute, welcome, and well thought out observations.

I would put to you, what is the cost of not doing it?
We are seeing the government backed Maple Leaf plant going up in London ON, amalgamating 3 different plants, and resulting in 300 fewer jobs. That is 300 less people in the private sector paying taxes on that income. Yes, other jobs have to be found by those people, but what will they be replaced with. It's also 3 different locations that have lost an employer. It's also a pretty profitable company getting provincial and federal tax dollars to do this, and I doubt that they will pass that on to the consumer.

Food security is one place where we have been getting weaker and weaker. The last soft fruit canning plant in Canada closed within the last decade. This forced all the orchards to remove their productive trees and have to re plant with fresh variety types, which takes time to produce. All because it's cheaper to import them. From where? Well, China is one of them. So now we are reliant on the whims of foreign markets on that front. Dairy is slowly starting to go that way with new trade deals. In fact, it seems every trade deal since the 70's has resulted in jobs disappearing and less independance. I think globalization has run amok, benefiting very few in a lot of cases, in order that we can get cheap goods. Now we are becoming a hostage to it. 

If you are producing something, do you send out your very best elsewhere and keep the lower standard product for yourself? Or would the opposite be true? Particularly if you have the customer by the short and curlies and they are dependant on you for that product.


----------



## mhammer

You ask some germane questions, Jim.
Large manufacturers/processors of anything generally have a bigger stick to poke governments with, because a place that employs more people is often the principle employer in a given locale, and anything that might compromise the long-term viability of that business is seen as a threat to the entire community. Conversely, any business that can promise large-scale employment for a region by establishing a facility there is seen as a blessing to the entire community. Either makes it that much easier to extract concessions from local, provincial and federal levels; a variant on the too-big-to-fail theme.

But as you imply, that is really a corner we paint ourselves into, not simply something that comes out of the blue and gets dumped in our lap.

I would hope that business schools begin orienting their graduates toward sustainability, with a touch of small-is-beautiful. If an "empire" happens to happen, great. But the goal should not be to _only_ create empires, and maybe business schools could make an effort to weed out the deliberate empire-builders and those who consider the Wal-Martization of everything the only legitimate objective. A business that provides a good sustainable service or product for a community or market niche, and provides a decent sustainable living for those attached to the business, is not such a bad thing to aim for.

But I'm veering into public policy, and away from pandemic-related matters.


----------



## keto

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1261813182353596421


----------



## butterknucket

GuitarsCanada said:


> Each small business will have it's own set of challenges. I am sure that all of them (including us) would like to get back to normal, I don't see that happening for a very long time and given some circumstances, never. The nature of our business and the size of the shop are 2 main factors. We were primarily a seasonal business to begin with, the cold months being the good ones and the summer being very slow. On top of that a vast majority of our income was tied to travel, weddings, graduations.... all of which have been essentially stopped and will be very, very slow to recover. Then comes the guidelines that must be followed. Physical distances is essentially impossible for small shops, 1600 sq ft and sometimes 800 sq ft given the requirements. Places like hairdressers are typically stingy on floor space. They don't need huge waiting rooms or huge spaces inside. our shop is 1100 sq ft and consists of a an entry, small waiting area and a long hallway that leads to 8 small rooms.
> 
> You could never have more then one employee working at the same time, never have 2 people in the waiting area. That would mean a total change in operating, we operate best when we are running people in and out of those rooms, the more the better. If you try to circumvent the distancing and someone get's sick, you open yourself up to not only relentless social media condemnation but also to potential lawsuits.
> 
> Like I said, every single small business out there will have it's own set of challenges. In our case, we are pretty much screwed. There has also been not one dime of assistance offered to small, mom and pop shops either at the provincial or federal levels. We don't meet any of the requirements. I would also never take out a loan based on pure speculation as to when and if this nightmare ever ends. There comes a time where you need to look at the cards in your hands and right now all I have is a pair of deuces.


Can I ask what kind of business you have?


----------



## Milkman

Ontario schools will NOT reopen for the remainder of this school year, just announced by Premier Ford.


----------



## JBFairthorne

I have no problem with schools remaining closed. Prior to the announcement, the ex and I decided that we would keep the kids home regardless. There’s no point taking a risk for three or four weeks of school before summer break.


----------



## Hamstrung

COVID-19 Daily Update — A Significant New Discovery – RheumInfo


----------



## GuitarsCanada

butterknucket said:


> Can I ask what kind of business you have?


Mainly a tanning salon. we have 5 machines, spray tanning as well as eyelashes, sugaring (waxing) and teeth whitening.


----------



## butterknucket

GuitarsCanada said:


> Mainly a tanning salon. we have 5 machines, spray tanning as well as eyelashes, sugaring (waxing) and teeth whitening.


Ah


----------



## laristotle

GuitarsCanada said:


> sugaring (waxing)


Do you see yourselves getting into 'bleaching'? lol


----------



## Jim DaddyO

I suppose it's a waiting game for the next few weeks to see how it pans out.

Canada's 'inevitable' second wave of COVID-19 cases - OHS Canada Magazine


----------



## GuitarsCanada




----------



## Jim DaddyO

Well, that didn't last long....

Thousands forced to leave Ford plant on day after it reopened


----------



## Milkman

Jim DaddyO said:


> Well, that didn't last long....
> 
> Thousands forced to leave Ford plant on day after it reopened


You'll see a lot of that. I'm wondering how big a stick you need to beat people over the head with for them to understand that rushing back to "shoulder to shoulder" activities will be one step forward and three back.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Second wave will be coming. Nothing to stop it really

Canadian Medical Association president says 'sick' health care system unprepared for a second pandemic wave | CBC News


----------



## Jim DaddyO

GuitarsCanada said:


> Second wave will be coming. Nothing to stop it really


I think that is correct, and I think there will be more than 2 waves. But, as in the first wave, the point was not to stop it per say (although if possible, that would be preferred), the point is to have it progress at a slow enough rate that the medical system does not get overwhelmed.
We have a virus around which there are still more questions than answers. Symptomatic treatment is all there is, and the symptoms vary wildly from person to person. From none at all, to death. That is a pretty wide range. I think the most danger comes from those with no symptoms. The "typhoid Marys" who unknowingly infect others just by walking around carrying it without symptoms.
A Huron nursing homes outbreak has been traced back to 2 workers there who had no signs of having the virus. Luckily, the have it under control now.

Outbreak over at nursing home in Huron County


----------



## colchar

I was speaking to a former prof of mine last night. It turns out her husband had been diagnosed with stage four cancer and was in palliative care, but all palliative care patients were sent home due to fears of a huge influx of Covid-19 patients. That influx never happened, and he died at home last month. After watching my Dad die in palliative care from stage four cancer three years ago, I cannot imagine what that must have been like.


----------



## Milkman

My wife lost her aunt yesterday. She was in hospital and in her 70s.

We're not sure of Covid-19 was a factor.


----------



## Electraglide

Oops. 

Can COVID-19 be spread through flatulence?


----------



## Distortion

Time to send most of the country back to work. Low or zero death rates in the Atlantic and west of Ontario. Monitor Ont and Quebec a little longer. You can only print money so long.


----------



## Wardo

One of the things that really pisses me off, in addition to the fact we are now running around wearing masks like we live in some dirt bag country, is that there won’t be another @greco breakfast in Kitchener any time soon.


----------



## colchar

Wardo said:


> One of the things that really pisses me off, in addition to the fact we are now running around wearing masks like we live in some dirt bag country


I always thought Orientals were fucking weird for wearing them. Now we're copying that.




> there won’t be another @greco breakfast in Kitchener any time soon.



One of y'all must have a backyard and a BBQ.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> I always thought Orientals were fucking weird for wearing them. Now we're copying that.


It's kinda weird, but it took a while for seatbelts and cycle helmets to catch on too. I saw someone note that if you think a mask is uncomfortable, you're going to hate the respirator. I find the mask hard to breath in, but for the short time I am in anywhere I think continuing to being able to breath over time is the point. I still see folks with them on just covering their mouth and not over their nose. I have the urge to say something, but I'll just let Darwin do it for me.


----------



## greco

To cover PPE, extra cleaning, etc costs...


----------



## Wardo

Jim DaddyO said:


> . ... it took a while for seatbelts and cycle helmets to catch on too.


Not the same thing. Having a disease inflicted upon us by some shit hole country is not something to be complacent about nor is the requirement to wear a facemask something that should be regarded as “oh, it’s just the new normal and really no different than having to wear a seatbelt in your car. “


----------



## Electraglide

Jim DaddyO said:


> It's kinda weird, but it took a while for seatbelts and cycle helmets to catch on too. I saw someone note that if you think a mask is uncomfortable, you're going to hate the respirator. I find the mask hard to breath in, but for the short time I am in anywhere I think continuing to being able to breath over time is the point. I still see folks with them on just covering their mouth and not over their nose. I have the urge to say something, but I'll just let Darwin do it for me.


You still see a lot of people riding bicycles without helmets. For some of us comfort is no biggy.....being able to breath with the mask on properly is, especially if they are wet. If you wear a mask so you can breath then your glasses fog up so seeing is tough. Ran into this problem yesterday....two stores I went to insist you wear a mask, take your temperature and provide hand sanitizer before you go in. If you don't have a mask they provided one for a donation. Got a mask at the first store and my glasses kept fogging up.....the walk between stores in the driving rain didn't help things. The second store was worse.


----------



## mhammer

Distortion said:


> Time to send most of the country back to work. Low or zero death rates in the Atlantic and west of Ontario. Monitor Ont and Quebec a little longer. You can only print money so long.


While there are a lot - too many - of folks who have lost their jobs or are temporarily sitting in an unpaid state, awaiting return to work, there are a great many for whom "back to work" simply means back to the screen and keyboard. In their case, what used to be done in an office with others nearby, CAN be done at home, solo. That represents the best case of adapting the work to current conditions. What remains is to figure out how to adapt as many of the _other_ jobs.

"Back to work" is not a matter of simply doing what you did, in the way you did it, back in January. It has to change, through no fault of its own. Those forms of work that are easily adapted to current circumstances will return first, and those where something about the work or workplace has to change substantially, won't return, and shouldn't, just yet.

I guess one of the question marks is whether, should a viable vaccine or silver-bullet treatment be developed within the next 18-24 months, any workplace or business that has been forced to change, for now, could easily change back, or even have a good reason to change back. For instance, I see this morning that Hertz car-rental has filed for bankruptcy, simply because a huge share of their business is car rental at airports, and folks aren't doing much air travel right now. But let's say folks start flying for vacations and business again, next year. Does Hertz rise from the ashes? Was their car fleet sold off as assets to pay their creditors, or simply put on blocks, waiting for the day?

I don't know. What I do know is "send most of the country back to work" is insufficient as a strategy. It's a valid and understandable wish, but wishes are not workable strategies.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> What I do know is "send most of the country back to work" is insufficient as a strategy.


I read recently, and I may be be not quite accurate in the quote, that "If people think that money is more important than lives, then society was ill way before this virus came along".

That being said. My own thoughts are that work and the economy ought to be opened up where it is safe (as possible) to do so. I don't understand why small retailers have to remain closed while Walmart and the like can continue to sell. People all have to realise that businesses are the propery of someone else. Their yard, their rules. If they wish to take precautions you don't agree with, go somewhere else, you have a choice, just like the business owners have made their choice. 

Everyone has been aware for enough time that the old normal will not be the new normal. They ought to have enough information to know that this will be an issue for a long time. Until a vaccine or irradication is acheived we can reasonably expect 2 years or more of this. That has been stated in several articles, so being 3 or 4 months into this in North America, and already getting impatient, leads me to wonder how some will cope with the real length of time this will take.

Of course, the longer some insist on rebelling and not taking reasonable precautions, the longer the time we will be under threat from it. Action was slow to come in the first place, I thought that if we had acted sooner and stricter as soon as we knew, things would be getting back by now. No use lamenting the past, it's gone. We have to do what we have to do today so we can have a better tomorrow.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> .
> 
> I don't know. What I do know is "send most of the country back to work" is insufficient as a strategy.


"Everybody stay home" is equally insufficient.

The curve is flat - the objective has been achieved. There is no cure or vaccine - nor will there be for quite some time. We know who it hits, where it hits and how it hits. That's gonna hafta do.


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> I read recently, and I may be be not quite accurate in the quote, that "If people think that money is more important than lives, then society was ill way before this virus came along".
> 
> That being said. My own thoughts are that work and the economy ought to be opened up where it is safe (as possible) to do so. I don't understand why small retailers have to remain closed while Walmart and the like can continue to sell. People all have to realise that businesses are the propery of someone else. Their yard, their rules.  _*If they wish to take precautions you don't agree with, go somewhere else, you have a choice*_, just like the business owners have made their choice.
> 
> Everyone has been aware for enough time that the old normal will not be the new normal. They ought to have enough information to know that this will be an issue for a long time. Until a vaccine or irradication is acheived we can reasonably expect 2 years or more of this. That has been stated in several articles, so being 3 or 4 months into this in North America, and already getting impatient, leads me to wonder how some will cope with the real length of time this will take.
> 
> Of course, the longer some insist on rebelling and not taking reasonable precautions, the longer the time we will be under threat from it. Action was slow to come in the first place, I thought that if we had acted sooner and stricter as soon as we knew, things would be getting back by now. No use lamenting the past, it's gone. We have to do what we have to do today so we can have a better tomorrow.


Part of the problem is the large number of people who live from paycheck to paycheck, in a region with limited employment opportunities, and who really can't "go somewhere else" to work. And if their employer does not provide them with safe working conditions - something all workers across the country are supposed to have a right to, unless they choose to reject it of their own free will - that employer's desire to re-open may jeopardize employees' health. This is especially true of places like retailers and anywhere else that customers may gather. Certainly those working in the health and long-term care fields have had the tough choice between caring for patients and residents, in spite of PPE shortages, or declining to work. In their case, however, it's not purely a matter of "I need a paycheck, and if this is what I gotta do to get it, so be it". Rather, they know that other people's welfare is depending on them. For those eager to get back to work in order to earn a wage, or simply to get ouyt of the house, it's another matter.

I'm curious about the extent to which the push for "re-opening" in the USA is a function of the large share of people who get their health coverage through their employer. No employer = no health care. And of course, here, we tend to be exposed to SO much American media, we mistakenly construe their conditions and laws as being our own as well. So if "they" can re-open, why can't "we"? There is a reason why the American per-capita death rate from this pandemic has remained much higher than Canada's. (It used to be about 3x higher, but is presently just under 2x higher.) WE should think about that, and perhaps so should our American brethren.

Has "the curve" been flattened? Not quite. This past Wednesday and Thursday we had as many deaths as were being reported in late April. The average over the past week is, yes, getting better, but we are far from being out of the woods. We certainly know more about who and how it hits, but not nearly enough. We_ thought_ it kind of passed over children, but those kids with that Kawasaki-disease-like syndrome threw us for a loop and made us realize there was still a great deal we didn't know. And of course, testing is nowhere near as thorough as it needs to be.

All in all, it's one big "marshmellow test" ( The Struggles of a Psychologist Studying Self-Control ).


----------



## boyscout

Electraglide said:


> Oops.
> 
> Can COVID-19 be spread through flatulence?


So should we be stockpiling adult diapers now?


----------



## mhammer

boyscout said:


> So should we be stockpiling adult diapers now?


Either that, or cut back on the beans.


----------



## colchar

greco said:


> To cover PPE, extra cleaning, etc costs...
> 
> 
> View attachment 313132



Is that from a Canadian restaurant? If so, the provincial governmentshould be informed as I bet they will crack down on it.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

I'm not digging this at all

PM Trudeau: Feds will soon 'strongly' recommend contact tracing app


----------



## keto

GuitarsCanada said:


> I'm not digging this at all
> 
> PM Trudeau: Feds will soon 'strongly' recommend contact tracing app


Do you have a phone? You are being tracked, period. They won't make it mandatory, same with the ridiculous notion of eventual mandatory vaccines.


----------



## Lincoln

keto said:


> Do you have a phone? You are being tracked, period. They won't make it mandatory, same with the ridiculous notion of eventual mandatory vaccines.


exactly. My phone will tell you everywhere I've been since the day I got it. Someday when my mind slips further into the dark abbiss, I may even make use of that feature.

They've been monitoring traffic for 5+ years already by tracking your Bluetooth signature.


----------



## Wardo

If you have location turned off is your phone still tracked ?

I expect that it might be but I don’t know for sure.

Edit: I posted at the same time as the above response.


----------



## mhammer

Gotta say, it's a weird ol' world when the obituaries section in the Saturday paper is so much longer than the sports section. Six and a half pages of obits, today, and a page and a half of sports. Part of that is because most of the obits are now showing up on Saturday as opposed to distributed through the week, and because more people are getting longer obits (which I like reading), rather than just a perfunctory listing of place and year of birth, spouse, kids, siblings, and funeral home. But it's also because there is basically no sports to report on, apart from scouting, possible ownership changes, and such.


----------



## keto

Wardo said:


> If you have location turned off is your phone still tracked ?
> 
> I expect that it might be but I don’t know for sure.
> 
> Edit: I posted at the same time as the above response.


Depends what apps you have I would guess, tho ever having used google ever on your phone probably has them permanently along for the ride.


----------



## boyscout

Lincoln said:


> exactly. My phone will tell you everywhere I've been since the day I got it. Someday when my mind slips further into the dark abbiss, I may even make use of that feature. They've been monitoring traffic for 5+ years already by tracking your Bluetooth signature.


I don't believe that's accurate.

No question, they've been tracking you in all sorts of ways by collecting information through many of the ways you use your phone, including Location Services if you have that turned on, but rarely via Bluetooth AFAIK.

And that's what has just changed. Under the guise of the pandemic and a "need" to track every person you come close to, the latest update to Apple's iOS system came out a few days ago with the framework necessary to do that with Bluetooth. Now apps - government apps, Apple apps, other third party apps - with and (likely soon if not already) without your permission to do so, will be able to identify everyone with whom you pass within 30 feet. Name and contact information at least, probably more. Google announced a while ago they were doing the same thing - it might be out already, or it's coming soon.

I've declined the update so far, but eventually I'll likely have no choice. Since I've declined it I don't know if the feature can be disabled in any way, including by turning off Bluetooth, but I suspect not. I'll guess that if we turn off Bluetooth this new feature will just keep on using it anyway.

Anyone who thinks that this is just fine, and/or that it's going to be removed when the pandemic is over, please call me about a bridge I have to sell in New York.


----------



## greco

boyscout said:


> please call me about a bridge I have to sell in New York.


I have lakefront property in a desert and am looking for a bridge.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

keto said:


> Do you have a phone? You are being tracked, period. They won't make it mandatory, same with the ridiculous notion of eventual mandatory vaccines.


I basically turn off everything I can on my phone. Any kind of location app etc. However, third party apps like to get inside your phone as well and many will ask permission be granted. Depends on how important that app is to you. But usually, if given the choice, i don't allow much if anything. But I think it's a losing battle. These cell phones get worse and worse all the time with the apps being developed.


----------



## Lincoln

boyscout said:


> I don't believe that's accurate.


the traffic part or the phone tracking part? Before my wife retired she was senior traffic annalist for the city of Edmonton, so I know way more about traffic than I ever wanted to. Traffic is monitored, specifically something called "travel times", using cell phone signals. Monitors placed in strategic locations around the city, the passing phones are noted, and when the same phone passes another monitor point, it records how long it took you to get there. The technology is out there, and it's being used. legally? That's a gray area.

One a month my phone spits out a report of where I've been that month. Every store, every restaurant, every city. Somewhere, all that info is being stored. If I had any reason to hide truth, I'd be worried.


----------



## laristotle

Glad that I'm still old school land line.


----------



## Wardo

For the contact tracing to be of any value they will have to make it mandatory otherwise the percentage of voluntary users will be too small to provide significant data.


----------



## greco

colchar said:


> Is that from a Canadian restaurant? If so, the provincial government should be informed as I bet they will crack down on it.


FYI...Stores are re-opening after COVID-19, so get ready for some new charges on your next bill | CBC News


----------



## Electraglide

boyscout said:


> So should we be stockpiling adult diapers now?


Depends. Just don't stand closer than 6' behind someone, depending on which way the wind blows.


----------



## Electraglide

keto said:


> Depends what apps you have I would guess, tho ever having used google ever on your phone probably has them permanently along for the ride.


In that case I'm safe. No google, no e-mail, no data and basically no phone calls on my cell. Almost everything like maps and crap like that is turned off or removed. According to the phone log I've had the phone for just under a year and made and received 1 hr and 18 min. worth of calls, texts etc. . The last time it was updated was before Xmas.. I download music on to it by hard wireing it into my laptop. The only time wifi is on is when I turn it on. If they can track you by bluetooth which I don't believe is accurate then they can only track me less than half the time I listen to music. Same goes for the burner.....when it has minutes on it.


----------



## laristotle

Electraglide said:


> Depends. Just don't stand closer than 6' behind someone, depending on which way the wind blows.


If you can smell it, you're too close. B#(*


----------



## Doug Gifford

Electraglide said:


> In that case I'm safe. No google, no e-mail, no data and basically no phone calls on my cell. …


No cel phone.


----------



## Electraglide

laristotle said:


> If you can smell it, you're too close. B#(*


Best you be movin' down the block then. Like the Jimmy hauling hogs it can get a little intense and if you get to following a red '52 or '53 Chevy 1/2 ton into TO on it's second trip you best be backing of about 5 miles or so.


----------



## Electraglide

Doug Gifford said:


> No cel phone.


Mine's a cheap way to listen to music.


----------



## _Azrael

If your cellphone is on your position is being tracked. It’s how your service provider manages roaming and per-second billing charges as well as routing incoming calls and text messages. It also provides the functionality of 911 and your position and history will be given out to the police provided they have a warrant.

If your wifi is on you’re constantly broadcasting your position and are tracked via your transponder’s MAC address. Stores will track how customers move through the store and what products they look at the longest. When you pay with a card they have your real identity. They then buy your information with rewards programs and sell it to 3rd parties for real money.

If your phone runs Android then it collects everything about you and sends it to Google. You agree to this when you quickly scroll to the bottom of the bajillion word legal document and check the box “I’ve read and agree with the above” without actually reading any of it.


----------



## Kenmac

"Dangerous and selfish behaviour":

'Dangerous and selfish behaviour': Hundreds gather in Toronto's Trinity Bellwoods despite concerning COVID-19 trends in Ontario


----------



## Jim DaddyO

_Azrael said:


> If your cellphone is on your position is being tracked. It’s how your service provider manages roaming and per-second billing charges as well as routing incoming calls and text messages. It also provides the functionality of 911 and your position and history will be given out to the police provided they have a warrant.
> 
> If your wifi is on you’re constantly broadcasting your position and are tracked via your transponder’s MAC address. Stores will track how customers move through the store and what products they look at the longest. When you pay with a card they have your real identity. They then buy your information with rewards programs and sell it to 3rd parties for real money.
> 
> If your phone runs Android then it collects everything about you and sends it to Google. You agree to this when you quickly scroll to the bottom of the bajillion word legal document and check the box “I’ve read and agree with the above” without actually reading any of it.



In addition, this is how they have surmised that people are out walking and driving around. The records of queries on "Google Maps" etc are all collected. If you google "walking trails" that metadata is compiled and stored.


----------



## boyscout

Lincoln said:


> the traffic part or the phone tracking part? Before my wife retired she was senior traffic annalist for the city of Edmonton, so I know way more about traffic than I ever wanted to. Traffic is monitored, specifically something called "travel times", using cell phone signals. Monitors placed in strategic locations around the city, the passing phones are noted, and when the same phone passes another monitor point, it records how long it took you to get there. The technology is out there, and it's being used. legally? That's a gray area.
> 
> One a month my phone spits out a report of where I've been that month. Every store, every restaurant, every city. Somewhere, all that info is being stored. If I had any reason to hide truth, I'd be worried.


And they're doing that with *Bluetooth*; you're sure about that? I don't know that they're not, but Bluetooth has a limited range, is susceptible to interference and obstacles, and has a fairly-high overhead for establishing a connection. Kind of amazing to me that they can use it to capture a car whizzing by.

The discussion about whether they SHOULD be doing it is, as you suggest, another topic.


----------



## colchar

Kenmac said:


> "Dangerous and selfish behaviour":
> 
> 'Dangerous and selfish behaviour': Hundreds gather in Toronto's Trinity Bellwoods despite concerning COVID-19 trends in Ontario



Only 0.16% of the population of Ontario has this virus, and only 0.13% once those in long term care homes are removed from the equation. In other words, 99.84% (and 99.87%) do not have it.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

My wife has been watching a report on Hong Kong and the virus.

I may be a bit off on my understanding, but I believe the app they have been using is pretty benign. What you do is enter an address and it will tell you the local cases in the area. You can put in your home address for example, and it will tell you if it is a hot spot as far as new cases in your apartment building/neighbourhood, how far away there are cases, etc. Or you can put in your work address, or the address where you are planing to go. No data collection, just information relayed to the app from the compilation from the health authorities. The onus is on the user to be responsible for their own safety.

Like I said, I am not 100% on that, but it sounds a lot different than what is being proposed for here.

I don't have a cell phone, so I don't have a dog in this race. It seems to me that a lot of people complaining about their privacy rights are doing it on Facebook who collects scads of information on you and your contacts, and that is multiplied exponentially with every Facebook game, app, share, like etc. that the same people are using. Facebook just got hammered with a big fine for it.

On a related note. Alphabet inc., the owners of Google and You Tube, have given up on their plan to develop the waterfront neighbourhood in Toronto. The one where they not only wanted it totally connected through their own network, they wanted the rights to all the information and data transmitted through that network, AND a good chunk of the propery taxes collected. It looked to me like it was planned to be a Big Brother on steroids situation.


----------



## Geert van der Veen

Kenmac said:


> "Dangerous and selfish behaviour":
> 
> 'Dangerous and selfish behaviour': Hundreds gather in Toronto's Trinity Bellwoods despite concerning COVID-19 trends in Ontario


This is so disappointing, but I feel I was given a preview of this when I went to my local ravine a few days ago, and saw 4 groups of people move towards and greet each other - hugging and kissing.

It seems that these people do not believe in biological fact.

At least the other 50 or so of us there were observing the social distancing rules.


----------



## Geert van der Veen

colchar said:


> Only 0.16% of the population of Ontario has this virus, and only 0.13% once those in long term care homes are removed from the equation. In other words, 99.84% (and 99.87%) do not have it.


It does not make very much sense to talk about large regions in terms of the rates and incidences of infection.

Much better to look at the density of population (i.e., proximity to others) in any given area.


----------



## butterknucket

I use an older phone. No data, and the battery can be removed easily for when I feel paranoid. 

I want to go to no cell phone, but that would mean no phone at all.


----------



## colchar

Geert van der Veen said:


> It does not make very much sense to talk about large regions in terms of the rates and incidences of infection.
> 
> Much better to look at the density of population (i.e., proximity to others) in any given area.



OK.

The population of Toronto is 2,930,000. According to Toronto Health, there are currently 10,035 cases in Toronto (as of 4pm yesterday). That works out to be 0.34% of the population of Toronto currently having the virus, and 99.66% not having it. And those numbers include those in long term care homes so the figures for the general population will be lower.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> OK.
> 
> The population of Toronto is 2,930,000. According to Toronto Health, there are currently 10,035 cases in Toronto (as of 4pm yesterday). That works out to be 0.34% of the population of Toronto currently having the virus, and 99.66% not having it. And those numbers include those in long term care homes so the figures for the general population will be lower.


I guess social distancing and reasonable precautions are working then. Having nothing happen was the goal.


----------



## Wardo

Number of cases is increasing by about 450 a day within the present testing system and I know three people that have had it so I‘d just as soon not be one of the lucky 450.


----------



## Electraglide

butterknucket said:


> I use an older phone. No data, and the battery can be removed easily for when I feel paranoid.
> 
> I want to go to no cell phone, but that would mean no phone at all.


Just set up a phone that isn't in your name. Easy enough to do.


----------



## butterknucket

Is anyone here wearing a mask when they go into stores?


----------



## Electraglide

butterknucket said:


> Is anyone here wearing a mask when they go into stores?


Only when the store says you have to or don't shop there. So far around here that's only two. The lab I have to go to will make it 3. That's what they said in the phone call I got Friday. Either bring a mask or they would provide one. After I'm done at the lab I'm going to see what restaurants are open.


----------



## Wardo

butterknucket said:


> Is anyone here wearing a mask when they go into stores?


Yes, and I only go to buy groceries about every two weeks. Other than that I don’t go into stores.


----------



## Milkman

We're wearing masks and gloves in stores.

For us it's not a matter of whether we _can _do something. It's whether we _should_ do it.

The law will only protect us so much. We're using a little extra precaution. Let's see what happens in the next week or two with all these dumb asses gathering together in parks.


----------



## Milkman




----------



## GuitarsCanada

Things appear to be going well, should have this all wrapped up in a few months 

Several tickets issued at crowded Toronto park after people spotted urinating, defecating in driveways, backyards


----------



## Milkman

GuitarsCanada said:


> Things appear to be going well, should have this all wrapped up in a few months
> 
> Several tickets issued at crowded Toronto park after people spotted urinating, defecating in driveways, backyards


Helicopter, spraying alcohol / disinfectant over the entire crowd.

Maybe tear gas as a little bonus.


----------



## SG-Rocker

Milkman said:


>


You get your marching orders from The Young Turks?


Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


----------



## Milkman

SG-Rocker said:


> You get your marching orders from The Young Turks?
> 
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk



No, just one perspective.


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> OK.
> 
> The population of Toronto is 2,930,000. According to Toronto Health, there are currently 10,035 cases in Toronto (as of 4pm yesterday). That works out to be 0.34% of the population of Toronto currently having the virus, and 99.66% not having it. And those numbers include those in long term care homes so the figures for the general population will be lower.


Is that total cases (active and resolved)? The Ontario site today is showing 6,206 active in the whole province.


----------



## laristotle

Religion? Really?!
Whose turn is it to start a new Covid-19 thread part III?


----------



## Milkman

laristotle said:


> Religion? Really?!
> Whose turn is it to start a new Covid-19 thread part III?


Really?

Are you painting all religious people with the same brush as those idiots in the clip I posted?

That clip is about stupidity, not religion.


----------



## laristotle

Milkman said:


> Are you painting all religious people with the same brush as those idiots in the clip I posted?


Can't comment. Not allowed in this forum.


----------



## butterknucket

GuitarsCanada said:


> Things appear to be going well, should have this all wrapped up in a few months
> 
> Several tickets issued at crowded Toronto park after people spotted urinating, defecating in driveways, backyards


If you want my respect, you need to pee in someone's mailbox.


----------



## Eric Reesor

laristotle said:


> Can't comment. Not allowed in this forum.


This disease could care less about politics or religious politics for that matter. It will take human decency, compassion and science to defeat it not divisive human inactions and actions. Above all defeating this disease will require the greatest of all human traits, the compassion that trust in our shared humanity as a species can bring. Divisive self centered stupidity caused by greed or avarice will only help this disease kill more humans.

Who knows? There might actually be so called "aliens" sitting out in near space watching what is going on with their fingers hovering over the trigger ready to nuke us all from orbit if we don't finally start getting our shit together as a species for a change. And finally start caring about each other and the planet as a whole regardless of our intractable problems dealing with racial and cultural differences.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

A building is not required to practice a religion, and a person at the front of it isn't needed either. Your religion is something you carry within you at all times. At least that's the way it's supposed to be.


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> Is that total cases (active and resolved)? The Ontario site today is showing 6,206 active in the whole province.



No idea. It was on the city's webpage. But thinking about it now I am guessing they must be referring to total cases (active and resolved). If so, then the numbers are even lower than what I posted because active cases are all that would matter for those calculations.

COVID-19


----------



## colchar

butterknucket said:


> If you want my respect, you need to pee in someone's mailbox.



Be a man, pee through their mail slot.


----------



## tomee2

butterknucket said:


> Is anyone here wearing a mask when they go into stores?


I do. People walk far away when I do....
And I'm limiting shopping to one day a week, closer to 2 weeks.


----------



## colchar

Eric Reesor said:


> This disease could care less


Um, that doesn't mean what you think it means.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Your religion is something you carry within you at all times.



So like herpes then?

Sorry, was just watching _Delirious_ and couldn't resist. "You keep that shit forever, like luggage."


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> So like herpes then?
> 
> Sorry, was just watching _Delirious_ and couldn't resist. "You keep that shit forever, like luggage."



That was hilarious. I love a good come back line.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Friend went to the one in Grimsby today. Had to wear mask 

Canadian Costco shoppers now being asked to wear non-medical face masks - Nanaimo News Bulletin


----------



## butterknucket

I believe all Costcos are asking you to wear a mask now.


----------



## colchar

GuitarsCanada said:


> Friend went to the one in Grimsby today. Had to wear mask
> 
> Canadian Costco shoppers now being asked to wear non-medical face masks - Nanaimo News Bulletin



Only a recommendation. This is from their webpage:

*Face Mask Requirement*

Public health experts recommend the use of masks or face coverings in public settings. To protect our members and employees, it is recommended that all Costco members and guests wear a mask or face covering that covers the mouth and nose, at all times while on Costco premises. This recommendation does not apply to children under the age of 2 or to individuals who are unable to wear a mask or face covering due to a medical condition. The use of a mask or face covering should not be seen as a substitute for social distancing. Please continue to observe rules regarding appropriate distancing while on Costco premises. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.


----------



## Milkman

I'm a little surprised they have to force people to do this.


----------



## butterknucket

I'll feel funny wearing a mask into a bank.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

colchar said:


> Only a recommendation. This is from their webpage:
> 
> *Face Mask Requirement*
> 
> Public health experts recommend the use of masks or face coverings in public settings. To protect our members and employees, it is recommended that all Costco members and guests wear a mask or face covering that covers the mouth and nose, at all times while on Costco premises. This recommendation does not apply to children under the age of 2 or to individuals who are unable to wear a mask or face covering due to a medical condition. The use of a mask or face covering should not be seen as a substitute for social distancing. Please continue to observe rules regarding appropriate distancing while on Costco premises. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.


The chick that went there today say's it just started today. No mask, no in. Get ready for it


----------



## Milkman

butterknucket said:


> I'll feel funny wearing a mask into a bank.


or any place of business.


----------



## butterknucket

I wonder if wearing masks will become as normal as wearing seatbeats.


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> No idea. It was on the city's webpage. But thinking about it now I am guessing they must be referring to total cases (active and resolved). If so, then the numbers are even lower than what I posted because active cases are all that would matter for those calculations.
> 
> COVID-19


The numbers as presented are far more (designed to be) complicated than they need to be. FWIW As far as I can figure, the death rate still holds at about 10% regardless of how they screw with it: (# deaths / (# deaths + # cured)) * 100. In Ontario that's (2,102 / (2,102 + 19,698)) * 100 = 10%


----------



## colchar

GuitarsCanada said:


> The chick that went there today say's it just started today. No mask, no in. Get ready for it



If that turns out to be true, I won't shop there again until they change that policy.


----------



## vadsy

why are so many opposed to wearing masks?


----------



## allthumbs56

vadsy said:


> why are so many opposed to wearing masks?


Mixed messages?

"The pandemic is here!" "Don't wear masks!"

"The curve is flat - let's get the economy going" "Forget we said to not wear masks!".


----------



## vadsy

allthumbs56 said:


> Mixed messages?
> 
> "The pandemic is here!" "Don't wear masks!"
> 
> "The curve is flat - let's get the economy going" "Forget we said to not wear masks!".


ah, a solid argument.


----------



## Fred Gifford

GuitarsCanada said:


> The chick that went there today say's it just started today. No mask, no in. Get ready for it


Costco operates in their own make believe bubble just like WalMart and other American companies , remember when Walmart wanted to check all customer receipts upon exiting the store ? even though it was against Canadian Laws ?? didn't last too long did it ??? If enough Canadians said F Costco, we are not wearing masks they would change their Mandatory Mask Policy in under 10 seconds, either that or pull out of Ontario entirely like what happened in Quebec when Canadian Supreme Court ruled it was Legal for WalMart employees to Unionize ...  American giants will always bully Canadian shoppers if they just take it like sheep ... baaaaa


----------



## GuitarsCanada

colchar said:


> If that turns out to be true, I won't shop there again until they change that policy.


I have not shopped there in 10 years. I will pay the extra 10 cents and avoid the 45 minutes in lines


----------



## allthumbs56

Had to go to Home Hardware yesterday. Young girl wearing a mask met us outside and handed each of us a basket. I told her we only needed one. She replied that that is how they're keeping track of how many people are in the store at a given time. Pretty smart if you ask me. When she's out of baskets you can't go in the store.


----------



## vadsy

I like when the sheep arguments come out,. you guys are almost mad enough to storm Costco with your curling brooms strapped to pufftactical Canada Goose Lightweight Down vests

we are just trying to protect our employees and customers- _"fuck you, I won't do what you tell me"_
health authority changed their mind when new data was presented and asked people to wear masks- _"fuck you, I won't do what you tell me. Ugh! Yeah! Come on! Ugh!"
_
anyways, I wish you the best. don;t hurt yourselves


----------



## keto

colchar said:


> If that turns out to be true, I won't shop there again until they change that policy.


? Really, you the high risker of all people?


----------



## boyscout

butterknucket said:


> Is anyone here wearing a mask when they go into stores?


Yup.


----------



## Judas68fr

boyscout said:


> Yup.


We are now as well, can't hurt to be honest, it's not much of a hassle, so may as well be wearing one, even if helps just a little, that's a win in my book. 

We're making a plan to reopen the lab I'm working at (Queen's University, research lab), and face masks are going to be mandatory.

The LCBO downtown Kingston has equipped all employees with face shields, Rona on the other hand didn't provide any PPE to their employees, and some still work in very close quarters...


----------



## Wardo

Where the hell do you buy masks now anyway; N95s aren’t available and some of the other mask solutions aren’t much more than a token gesture.


----------



## boyscout

allthumbs56 said:


> The numbers as presented are far more (designed to be) complicated than they need to be. FWIW As far as I can figure, the death rate still holds at about 10% regardless of how they screw with it: (# deaths / (# deaths + # cured)) * 100. In Ontario that's (2,102 / (2,102 + 19,698)) * 100 = 10%


That's the death rate per *confirmed and reported cases*. There are tens of thousands (or more) of current or past infections that have never been identified or recorded because (a) we're not testing widely enough - one still has to be pretty sick with symptoms to qualify for testing in Ontario - and (b) we've barely started antibody testing to identify all the people who have had it and (c) many of the infected persons have had no or minor symptoms and have not sought testing or treatment.

But they're out there, and that's part of why we had over 1,000 new confirmed and reported infections just yesterday.

The real death rate per ALL infections is far less than 10%, probably less than one percent. Calculating a death rate for the disease against only the confirmed and reported infected persons when those are without doubt only a fraction of all persons infected isn't enlightening is it?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

We wear masks when we go into stores. My wife sewed some up. I'll take any advantage I can get. Some folks argue that masks are not fine enough to stop the virus and I don't worry about that, it just has to be fine enough to filter the particles that the virus is travelling on. They are hard to breath through and the glasses fog up sometimes but my wife sewed in some rubber coated wire for the nose piece that makes the fit around my schnoz pretty good. I wear my glasses most of the time too as the eyes are a conduit. It amazes me how many people I see wearing a mask just over their mouth leaving the nose uncovered.


----------



## colchar

Fred Gifford said:


> remember when Walmart wanted to check all customer receipts upon exiting the store ? even though it was against Canadian Laws ??


That is against the law in Canada?


----------



## colchar

Wardo said:


> Where the hell do you buy masks now anyway; N95s aren’t available and some of the other mask solutions aren’t much more than a token gesture.




Yeah it is funny to see people walking around wearing bandanas, etc. Those ain't gonna do fuck all.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Wardo said:


> Where the hell do you buy masks now anyway; N95s aren’t available and some of the other mask solutions aren’t much more than a token gesture.


This… Saving Your Health, One Mask at a Time


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> Be a man, pee through their mail slot.


Or a flaming bag on the doorstep.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> Only a recommendation. This is from their webpage:
> 
> *Face Mask Requirement*
> 
> Public health experts recommend the use of masks or face coverings in public settings. To protect our members and employees, it is recommended that all Costco members and guests wear a mask or face covering that covers the mouth and nose, at all times while on Costco premises. This recommendation does not apply to children under the age of 2 or to individuals who are unable to wear a mask or face covering due to a medical condition. The use of a mask or face covering should not be seen as a substitute for social distancing. Please continue to observe rules regarding appropriate distancing while on Costco premises. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.


Guess I'm going to have to start carrying one of my inhalers.


----------



## Electraglide

butterknucket said:


> I wonder if wearing masks will become as normal as wearing seatbeats.


Doubt it.


----------



## Electraglide

Fred Gifford said:


> Costco operates in their own make believe bubble just like WalMart and other American companies , remember when Walmart wanted to check all customer receipts upon exiting the store ? even though it was against Canadian Laws ?? didn't last too long did it ??? If enough Canadians said F Costco, we are not wearing masks they would change their Mandatory Mask Policy in under 10 seconds, either that or pull out of Ontario entirely like what happened in Quebec when Canadian Supreme Court ruled it was Legal for WalMart employees to Unionize ... American giants will always bully Canadian shoppers if they just take it like sheep ... baaaaa


Some of the wallyworlds here still check a lot of receipts as does costco. The only time I go to costco is when I go with my son so I don't know if they are doing the face mask thing or not here.


----------



## Electraglide

About a quarter of the stores were open in the mall I went to today. The only place busy was the apple store with 5 or 6 renta cops taking peoples temperatures, spraying hands with sanitizers and making them stand in line outside the store. Not too sure if they were having the customers wear masks or not tho it looked like all the employees were. I didn't figure it was worth it to stand in line outside the store then wait inside the store to probably have someone tell me that they don't know anything about ipad mini 1 and 2. The food court was open with limited seating and a few places open so I got a burger combo from A&W and went and sat down. I only saw a few stores with signs saying that you had to wear a mask.


----------



## Guitar101

colchar said:


> Only a recommendation. This is from their webpage:
> 
> *Face Mask Requirement*
> 
> Public health experts recommend the use of masks or face coverings in public settings. To protect our members and employees, it is recommended that all Costco members and guests wear a mask or face covering that covers the mouth and nose, at all times while on Costco premises. This recommendation does not apply to children under the age of 2 or to individuals who are unable to wear a mask or face covering due to a medical condition. The use of a mask or face covering should not be seen as a substitute for social distancing. Please continue to observe rules regarding appropriate distancing while on Costco premises. Thank you for your understanding and cooperation.


So I went to the Costco in Peterborough this morning to pick up my prescriptions and their handing out masks on the way in. That was it, just handing people a mask. I haven't worn a mask yet so I put it in my pocket. I picked up my prescriptions and noticed I was the only one in the whole store that wasn't wearing a mask. I guess in this case, I was the one that looked out of place. I got the mask out of my pocket and put it on and felt a little better about myself for doing so. We truly are all in this together.


----------



## Guitar101

Wardo said:


> Where the hell do you buy masks now anyway; N95s aren’t available and some of the other mask solutions aren’t much more than a token gesture.


I guess in this case a token gesture is enough. It supposedly slows down the droplets from an infectious person. I just ordered some from this place.

https://www.living.ca/topic-1413-hygiene-products


----------



## Wardo

Guitar101 said:


> I guess in this case a token gesture is enough. It supposedly slows down the droplets from an infectious person. I just ordered some from this place.
> 
> https://www.living.ca/topic-1413-hygiene-products


I have one N95 that I bought a few years ago for working with solvents but I’m gonna have to buy some new ones because I don’t see this virus deal going away anytime soon.


----------



## laristotle

butterknucket said:


> Is anyone here wearing a mask when they go into stores?


Nope.
I've only hit the beer store once a month, six cs/trip.
Wife does the other shopping and this small town sobeys' pretty empty.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Went to the beer store. Small town, not very busy. Had to wait until the cashier cleared the customer that was in there before I could go in. There was a lady just inside the entrance. Mask and face shield controlling the customers. I had a pleasant chat with her as I stood 2 metres away with my mask on. Apparently, some people get pretty upset and rude with her. I thought "why?". Beer isn't that important, and they could just tell you to leave, and why be a dick to someone experiencing increased possibility of exposure?


----------



## Eric Reesor

Wardo said:


> Where the hell do you buy masks now anyway; N95s aren’t available and some of the other mask solutions aren’t much more than a token gesture.


n95s only protect you somewhat from inhaling clouds of airborne virus particles and protect no one else if they are of the Darth Vader style with a valve if you have been exposed to the virus and are spreading it.

I have a half box of n95 dust masks left from doing dusty reno work 10 years ago on our house. I am saving them for a very possible second wave here on Vancouver Island because they go too fast and you cannot wash them so they are only good in a pinch. 

Instead I wear home made cloth masks which are shown work to protect other people from droplets the wearer exhales. Breathing through your nose instead of your mouth also reduces the amount of vapour droplets that a human disperses every time you exhale. The scientific facts are that you are not protecting yourself from exposure you are protecting others by reducing greatly the amount of fog liquid molecules with a simple cloth mask that you exhale if you cannot social distance adequately for any reason or if you want to converse safely socially. 

On the lighter side of the equation I don't know how to talk through my nose but if we could no doubt it would be safer than mouthing words to each other during this pandemic.

The problem with this virus is that you can spread it and have absolutely no clue that you actually are spreading it because so many people contract it and have no symptoms whatsoever. That is the only reason why it is so dangerous it spreads like wildfire and all we can do is accept that we can reduce the chances of spreading it with better hand hygiene habits and wearing a mask to protect other people. The testing that is being done is showing that this is what is going on.

Here on Vancouver Island so far we have managed to nip Covid it in the bud by locking down quickly, we have not had new cases in the last few weeks and most of our seniors facilities are completely free from exposure and outbreaks so far. 

As things open up we will see if we can also prevent a second wave of cases and deaths. 

If you cannot know whether you are spreading this disease why not simply take the best precautions you can to protect others just in case you have the virus circulating in your body and don't know it?

I just finished helping to do the monthly food inventory in a seniors facility and will go in and cook if they become desperate during a second wave and one of the regular cooks suddenly gets sick. In my health circumstances if I do contract the virus I might be in trouble so instead I must practice social distancing and sensible hygiene precautions as much as humanly possible. I also have a little scamp trailer with a bathroom that I can isolate in if absolutely necessary so even though I am technically retired I won't blink and eye at helping to feed seniors in a care facility if it becomes absolutely necessary.

Thus my avatar change. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wearing a simple cloth mask and it can help to slow the spread of covid. It is nothing better than simple human vanity not to while in close social contact situations. IM not so Humble Opinion. Besides if we make enough of them the price of cleaning rags will plummet after this virus finally subsides so what do we have to lose.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Well, I am as cynical as anyone about young people today. So with that in mind, I am pleasantly surprised to be wrong at times.

COVID-19: Students step up as London-area grower's migrant workers delayed | London Free Press


----------



## tomee2

Today, Costco in Ottawa (barrhaven) was handing out surgical masks on the way in. Most people were wearing them. 
They also stopped emptying your cart for you, but they pack it up. And they had stacks of toilet paper back again. 

Last week, Can Tire had hand sanitizer for everyone entering. 
All good things I think. I'm grateful that I can go in person to buy something again even though I'm keeping the trips out of the house to a minimum.


----------



## keithb7

I have read and heard so many facts about this virus, then they are proven false later. Contradicting stories. Fake news. Drama. Misrepresentation of facts. Everyone spewing their opinions online. Media censorship around Medical professionals speaking out against what we are supposed to believe. What the heck is the truth any more?
Mask or no mask? Who do we believe?


----------



## player99

keithb7 said:


> I have read and heard so many facts about this virus, then they are proven false later. Contradicting stories. Fake news. Drama. Misrepresentation of facts. Everyone spewing their opinions online. Media censorship around Medical professionals speaking out against what we are supposed to believe. What the heck is the truth any more?
> Mask or no mask? Who do we believe?


They lied at the start to keep the masks for hospitals. Wear a mask.


----------



## Guitar101

Eric Reesor said:


> n95s only protect you somewhat from inhaling clouds of airborne virus particles and protect no one else if they are of the Darth Vader style with a valve if you have been exposed to the virus and are spreading it.
> 
> I have a half box of n95 dust masks left from doing dusty reno work 10 years ago on our house. I am saving them for a very possible second wave here on Vancouver Island because they go too fast and you cannot wash them so they are only good in a pinch.
> 
> Instead I wear home made cloth masks which are shown work to protect other people from droplets the wearer exhales. Breathing through your nose instead of your mouth also reduces the amount of vapour droplets that a human disperses every time you exhale. The scientific facts are that you are not protecting yourself from exposure you are protecting others by reducing greatly the amount of fog liquid molecules with a simple cloth mask that you exhale if you cannot social distance adequately for any reason or if you want to converse safely socially.
> 
> On the lighter side of the equation I don't know how to talk through my nose but if we could no doubt it would be safer than mouthing words to each other during this pandemic.
> 
> The problem with this virus is that you can spread it and have absolutely no clue that you actually are spreading it because so many people contract it and have no symptoms whatsoever. That is the only reason why it is so dangerous it spreads like wildfire and all we can do is accept that we can reduce the chances of spreading it with better hand hygiene habits and wearing a mask to protect other people. The testing that is being done is showing that this is what is going on.
> 
> Here on Vancouver Island so far we have managed to nip Covid it in the bud by locking down quickly, we have not had new cases in the last few weeks and most of our seniors facilities are completely free from exposure and outbreaks so far.
> 
> As things open up we will see if we can also prevent a second wave of cases and deaths.
> 
> If you cannot know whether you are spreading this disease why not simply take the best precautions you can to protect others just in case you have the virus circulating in your body and don't know it?
> 
> I just finished helping to do the monthly food inventory in a seniors facility and will go in and cook if they become desperate during a second wave and one of the regular cooks suddenly gets sick. In my health circumstances if I do contract the virus I might be in trouble so instead I must practice social distancing and sensible hygiene precautions as much as humanly possible. I also have a little scamp trailer with a bathroom that I can isolate in if absolutely necessary so even though I am technically retired I won't blink and eye at helping to feed seniors in a care facility if it becomes absolutely necessary.
> 
> Thus my avatar change. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wearing a simple cloth mask and it can help to slow the spread of covid. It is nothing better than simple human vanity not to while in close social contact situations. IM not so Humble Opinion. Besides if we make enough of them the price of cleaning rags will plummet after this virus finally subsides so what do we have to lose.


I also have a few N95 masks that I bought a few years ago for dust control. I was able to donate a box to the hospital and keep a few for myself. My experience with the 3M N95 masks are the straps are the weakest link. When the straps broke, I had to get a new mask. With the N95 mask becoming harder and more expensive to get with the advent of covid-19, I've gotten creative and add new straps so I can wear them longer. I also found you can actually wash them, they don't break down and still work well for dust control. As for wearing them for covid, not really a good idea because if you had come in contact with an inspected person, you could have the virus on the mask and you might transfer it to your hands and fingers. The non-surgical masks are throw away and the ones people are making can be washed and re-used.

I checked the receipt for a box of 20 3M N95's I bought a couple of years ago and they were $15 plus tax. If you could find them, their now selling for around a $100 or more.


----------



## tomee2

keithb7 said:


> I have read and heard so many facts about this virus, then they are proven false later. Contradicting stories. Fake news. Drama. Misrepresentation of facts. Everyone spewing their opinions online. Media censorship around Medical professionals speaking out against what we are supposed to believe. What the heck is the truth any more?
> Mask or no mask? Who do we believe?





player99 said:


> They lied at the start to keep the masks for hospitals. Wear a mask.


Think of the masks as a risk reduction, not a prevention. Like slowing down in a construction zone.

Someone posted this link earlier, I think it was a great description of what a mask does.

Saving Your Health, One Mask at a Time


----------



## 14786

The virus is only airborne in certain treatment situations within the hospital. So wearing an N95 outside of those situations is completely unnecessary. A standard surgical mask is all that’s needed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## allthumbs56

boyscout said:


> That's the death rate per *confirmed and reported cases*. There are tens of thousands (or more) of current or past infections that have never been identified or recorded because (a) we're not testing widely enough - one still has to be pretty sick with symptoms to qualify for testing in Ontario - and (b) we've barely started antibody testing to identify all the people who have had it and (c) many of the infected persons have had no or minor symptoms and have not sought testing or treatment.
> 
> But they're out there, and that's part of why we had over 1,000 new confirmed and reported infections just yesterday.
> 
> The real death rate per ALL infections is far less than 10%, probably less than one percent. Calculating a death rate for the disease against only the confirmed and reported infected persons when those are without doubt only a fraction of all persons infected isn't enlightening is it?


I realize that. That there are unreported cases is a pretty safe assumption. How many? All we can do is guess away. What I'm looking at are the published numbers - and the fact that it is incorrect for public figures to declare that the death rate is 3 or 4 % based on those numbers. *They keep dividing the number of people dead by the number infected - and that's wrong.*


----------



## allthumbs56

keithb7 said:


> I have read and heard so many facts about this virus, then they are proven false later. Contradicting stories. Fake news. Drama. Misrepresentation of facts. Everyone spewing their opinions online. Media censorship around Medical professionals speaking out against what we are supposed to believe. What the heck is the truth any more?
> Mask or no mask? *Who do we believe?*


What would your mom tell you?

Moms are always right.


----------



## boyscout

allthumbs56 said:


> I realize that. That there are unreported cases is a pretty safe assumption. How many? All we can do is guess away. What I'm looking at are the published numbers - and the fact that it is incorrect for public figures to declare that the death rate is 3 or 4 % based on those numbers. *They keep dividing the number of tested and recorded infected by the number of people dead - and that's wrong.*


Fixed it for you, we agree, it's meaningless. We don't have a handle on it but publishing meaningless statistics probably gives some people comfort that we do have a handle on it; a thousand new cases per day after extended lockdowns says that we don't. Exaggerating the death rate may serve to scare some people into remaining careful, but many are not.

Read somewhere this morning that 193,000 people have arrived in Canada on flights since our airports were "locked down".


----------



## GuitarsCanada

boyscout said:


> Fixed it for you, we agree, it's meaningless. We don't have a handle on it but publishing meaningless statistics probably gives some people comfort that we do have a handle on it; a thousand new cases per day after extended lockdowns says that we don't. Exaggerating the death rate may serve to scare some people into remaining careful, but many are not.
> 
> Read somewhere this morning that 193,000 people have arrived in Canada on flights since our airports were "locked down".


I found it very interesting the other day when Doug Ford was essentially "begging" people to get tested just a week after phase one was started. The more testing you do the more positives you get. That number in itself is a driving force for many decisions. Most people won't take the time to sit down and analyze the ratio's and the deaths. My own personal belief is that we have had thousands upon thousands of infected people far beyond what the testing can show. The vast majority of those being unreported in some way either through mild symptoms or no testing. It kills people, and that should not be forgotten or swept under the carpet. But the numbers just don't equate to a major killer. At least not to date.


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> What would your mom tell you?


Go ask your father?


----------



## tomee2

GuitarsCanada said:


> I found it very interesting the other day when Doug Ford was essentially "begging" people to get tested just a week after phase one was started. The more testing you do the more positives you get. That number in itself is a driving force for many decisions. Most people won't take the time to sit down and analyze the ratio's and the deaths. My own personal belief is that we have had thousands upon thousands of infected people far beyond what the testing can show. The vast majority of those being unreported in some way either through mild symptoms or no testing. It kills people, and that should not be forgotten or swept under the carpet. But the numbers just don't equate to a major killer. At least not to date.


It is a major killer and the numbers point it out clearly. 6000 dead in 8 weeks? 100,000 in the US, with lockdowns and social distancing? What numbers are you seeing? Yes majority have no or minor symptoms, but it's looking like about 3% or so that get it and have symptoms die from it, and that maybe 1% that get it in total symptoms or not die from it. I say about, it's not an exact number and can never be. These numbers have to be estimates. At 1% dead per infection, if half the country got it, that's 170,000 dead, and it would've happened in a few months. 
Canada shut down early enough, but Toronto. Vancouver or Montreal could've been as bad as NY or London had we done nothing.


----------



## allthumbs56

boyscout said:


> Fixed it for you


 Actually you flipped the numerator and denominator which breaks it - unless you were actually trying to .


----------



## boyscout

allthumbs56 said:


> Actually you flipped the numerator and denominator which breaks it - unless you were actually trying to .


I should have known better than to mess with a math guy's math.


----------



## tomee2

boyscout said:


> Fixed it for you, we agree, it's meaningless. We don't have a handle on it but publishing meaningless statistics probably gives some people comfort that we do have a handle on it; a thousand new cases per day after extended lockdowns says that we don't. Exaggerating the death rate may serve to scare some people into remaining careful, but many are not.
> 
> Read somewhere this morning that 193,000 people have arrived in Canada on flights since our airports were "locked down".


Curious, but why do you say it's exaggerated?
Seriously, not sarcastically. I can't see where the exaggeration comes from. I dont see where there is any intentional exaggeration either.
They have counts for dead, and counts for confirmed infected. True infected is never known. Confirmed infected is important because those people felt sick and met criteria for testing. 3%, or whatever it is, dying that get a fever or runny nose is a big deal.

I agree that people travelling back home are an issue..and so is trusting they actually do quarantine. At this point, they should all get tested.


----------



## allthumbs56

tomee2 said:


> Curious, but why do you say it's exaggerated?
> Seriously, not sarcastically. I can't see where the exaggeration comes from. I dont see where there is any intentional exaggeration either.
> They have counts for dead, and counts for confirmed infected. True infected is never known. Confirmed infected is important because those people felt sick and met criteria for testing. 3%, or whatever it is, dying that get a fever or runny nose is a big deal.
> 
> I agree that people travelling back home are an issue..and so is trusting they actually do quarantine. At this point, they should all get tested.


The raw numbers may not be exaggerated (they can be manipulated). The spoken exaggeration comes if we assume that there are numbers missed, people who didn't know they were infected or didn't bother to report it and got better. How many of these people there are can alter the calculations drastically but we can't count them - only guess and play with models.


----------



## boyscout

tomee2 said:


> Curious, but why do you say it's exaggerated?
> Seriously, not sarcastically. I can't see where the exaggeration comes from. I dont see where there is any intentional exaggeration either.
> They have counts for dead, and counts for confirmed infected. True infected is never known. Confirmed infected is important because those people felt sick and met criteria for testing. 3%, or whatever it is, dying that get a fever or runny nose is a big deal. I agree that people travelling back home are an issue..and so is trusting they actually do quarantine. At this point, they should all get tested.


@allthumbs56 answered already; as usual I agree with him.

IMO it's fair to say that reporting the "death rate" from Covid-19 to be 10%, or even 3%, is exaggeration. Not implying malicious intent in that - at worst officials might be letting those big numbers float around without correction in order to elevate concern and caution.

However they are exaggerations of the true death rate ("mortality rate") of the virus, the number that will one day be part of medical literature along with the 0.1% mortality rate of seasonal flu, the 15% mortality rate of measles, etc.

My opinion comes from seeing synopses of a couple of studies (one at Stanford University) that report Covid-19's mortality rate is 0.2% or less. The studies have used statistics from places that tested much more widely and aggressively than we've done here, capturing a larger share of the subject populations and comparing those numbers to Covid-19 deaths there.

If a mortality rate of 10% or 3% here isn't an exaggeration then our health care system must be dramatically less effective than those in other places at coping with infected symptomatic people. Not likely, right? So what's more likely if the aforementioned studies have any credibility is that we have had hundreds of thousands (at least) of infections that have not been found through testing, have not been included in the understated infection rate, and therefore resulting calculations of high death rates are overstated / exaggerated.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Horror stories becoming unveiled:

Military teams raise concerns about conditions at Ontario care homes

Not a place I want to end up, nor anyone I care about. My wife worked in a long term care home and is not surprised.


----------



## tomee2

boyscout said:


> @allthumbs56 answered already; as usual I agree with him.
> 
> IMO it's fair to say that reporting the "death rate" from Covid-19 to be 10%, or even 3%, is exaggeration. Not implying malicious intent in that - at worst officials might be letting those big numbers float around without correction in order to elevate concern and caution.
> 
> However they are exaggerations of the true death rate ("mortality rate") of the virus, the number that will one day be part of medical literature along with the 0.1% mortality rate of seasonal flu, the 15% mortality rate of measles, etc.
> 
> My opinion comes from seeing synopses of a couple of studies (one at Stanford University) that report Covid-19's mortality rate is 0.2% or less. The studies have used statistics from places that tested much more widely and aggressively than we've done here, capturing a larger share of the subject populations and comparing those numbers to Covid-19 deaths there.
> 
> If a mortality rate of 10% or 3% here isn't an exaggeration then our health care system must be dramatically less effective than those in other places at coping with infected symptomatic people. Not likely, right? So what's more likely if the aforementioned studies have any credibility is that we have had hundreds of thousands (at least) of infections that have not been found through testing, have not been included in the understated infection rate, and therefore resulting calculations of high death rates are overstated / exaggerated.



Ok, I see the point.
H1N1 numbers were revised after it ended.
I see it as dealing with known facts as they come in. Its known to spread quickly, and where it was able to do so for a week or two or three before a total shutdown was enacted, it
overwhelmed the health care system and eventually the morgues. China, Italy, Spain, UK, NYC...same response until people stayed home. Seasonal flu never does that, even in retirement homes.
So, I think it can't possibly end up to be as low as the flu given what has happened so far WITH social distancing, stay home orders etc. in place.


----------



## boyscout

tomee2 said:


> So, I think it can't possibly end up to be as low as the flu given what has happened so far WITH social distancing, stay home orders etc. in place.


I'm not sure the mortality rate is the variable in that.

This virus has proven to be VERY much more successful than seasonal flu at transmitting and infecting. Take away the precautions and we would likely have had many more infections, overwhelming health services (preventing that was the reason for the precautions) and many more deaths.

However the infection rate moving up wouldn't necessarily raise the mortality rate - the number of deaths would increase but not the rate. Not unless an overwhelmed health care system resulted in a larger share of the cases ending in death due to lack of treatment, right?

According to the studies cited above, the mortality rate of Covid-19 **is** almost as low as the flu (well, it's more than double, but still less than 1%). That rate probably would increase if all precautions were avoided, but the increase would be due to the health system's inability to treat the explosion of infected people. I don't believe that mortality rates are generally evaluated without regard for treatment - the mortality rate for measles would be far greater than 15% if treatment wasn't available for it, for example.


----------



## allthumbs56

boyscout said:


> @allthumbs56 answered already; as usual I agree with him.
> 
> IMO it's fair to say that reporting the "death rate" from Covid-19 to be 10%, or even 3%, is exaggeration. Not implying malicious intent in that - at worst officials might be letting those big numbers float around without correction in order to elevate concern and caution.
> 
> However they are exaggerations of the true death rate ("mortality rate") of the virus, the number that will one day be part of medical literature along with the 0.1% mortality rate of seasonal flu, the 15% mortality rate of measles, etc.
> 
> My opinion comes from seeing synopses of a couple of studies (one at Stanford University) that report Covid-19's mortality rate is 0.2% or less. The studies have used statistics from places that tested much more widely and aggressively than we've done here, capturing a larger share of the subject populations and comparing those numbers to Covid-19 deaths there.
> 
> If a mortality rate of 10% or 3% here isn't an exaggeration then our health care system must be dramatically less effective than those in other places at coping with infected symptomatic people. Not likely, right? So what's more likely if the aforementioned studies have any credibility is that we have had hundreds of thousands (at least) of infections that have not been found through testing, have not been included in the understated infection rate, and therefore resulting calculations of high death rates are overstated / exaggerated.


My brother from another wolfpack? 

Maggs was talking the the woman next door last week. She claims that their household of 8 all had Covid - but did not report it and it went away in a matter of days. Did they? Didn't they?

Here in St. Catharines we've had a total of 98 confirmed cases so far. If my neighbours were added to that total it would represent a 10% increase (almost). How about if there were 10 more households like that? 100? All of a sudden that 11% fatality rate that the published numbers support becomes 5%. Or 0.5%. Or 0.001 %. Maybe more people are drowning in a toilet as we speak.

We don't know.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Horror stories becoming unveiled:
> 
> Military teams raise concerns about conditions at Ontario care homes
> 
> Not a place I want to end up, nor anyone I care about. My wife worked in a long term care home and is not surprised.



As many here will know, my elderly mother lives with me and she has early stage Alzheimer's. Prior to this, my brother and I figured that when it got to be too much for me to handle (the stress is constant, but some days are much worse than others) she would have to go into a home. But now that this pandemic has exposed the realities of many of these places, I guess we will have to wait until she is at the point of needing hospitalization before putting her anywhere. I don't know how I am going to handle caring for her until then.


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> She claims that their household of 6 all had Covid - but did not report it and it went away in a matter of days.



Sounds to me like the type of person who wants attention. Maybe they passed a cold around among themselves and blew it up to be Covid?


----------



## laristotle

Jim DaddyO said:


> Horror stories becoming unveiled:
> 
> Military teams raise concerns about conditions at Ontario care homes
> 
> Not a place I want to end up, nor anyone I care about. My wife worked in a long term care home and is not surprised.


----------



## tomee2

boyscout said:


> I'm not sure the mortality rate is the variable in that.
> 
> This virus has proven to be VERY much more successful than seasonal flu at transmitting and infecting. Take away the precautions and we would likely have had many more infections, overwhelming health services (preventing that was the reason for the precautions) and many more deaths.
> 
> However the infection rate moving up wouldn't necessarily raise the mortality rate - the number of deaths would increase but not the rate. Not unless an overwhelmed health care system resulted in a larger share of the cases ending in death due to lack of treatment, right?
> 
> According to the studies cited above, the mortality rate of Covid-19 **is** almost as low as the flu (well, it's more than double, but still less than 1%). That rate probably would increase if all precautions were avoided, but the increase would be due to the health system's inability to treat the explosion of infected people. I don't believe that mortality rates are generally evaluated without regard for treatment - the mortality rate for measles would be far greater than 15% if treatment wasn't available for it, for example.


It could be the same as flu. Let's assume that.
But, the flu we get goes around and around year after year, and we get flu shots. So most people have antibodies from the flu strain they got as a kid that helps them out when they're older. 
So the seasonal flu does not infect everyone, so maybe 10% of Canadians get the flu each year, and 3000 die.

Covid is new, novel coronavirus, no one on earth has antibodies to it. Well, so.e do now. So the potential is for 100% infection although I've read that 50 to 60% is what is more likely to happen. So now we're talking 5 to 6 times as many people infected compared to seasonal flu.

So 6 times as many dead. But what if the mortality is higher? What if it is 0.5%?

5 times as many infected, with 5 times as many dead, 25 times the seasonal flu dead. About 75,000 in Canada.

Change the infected percentage to 80% ( a bit high but eventually we might get there), and the mortality to 1% (not unrealistic) and now we're looking 80 times more dead than the seasonal flu. 

With realistic estimates for infection rates and mortality rates we now have an estimated 25 to 80 times more dead compared to the seasonal flu.

And the result of that simple analysis, which I'm sure public health officials in every jurisdiction did all of Feb and March, was a "holy shit" moment for the politicians.


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> Sounds to me like the type of person who wants attention. Maybe they passed a cold around among themselves and blew it up to be Covid?


The neighbour's pretty solid but who really knows? What's a "mild case" feel like? I have friends who suspect they've had - heck maybe I did back in January when I felt like crap. That's where the antibody testing (if effective enough) comes in to play.

Me? I'm hoping Covid-19 becomes a board-game question 5 years from now where the final numbers only matter as a trivia question.


----------



## boyscout

Here's a consequence of Covid-19 that may surprise some:

Scared Americans Desperate to Travel Are Buying Up ‘Covid Campers’

_For decades, sales of motor homes and travel trailers you hitch to your car were a reliable indicator of the beginning—and end—of a recession. Sales would dip as a downturn approached, and rise right before a recovery. But this time, it’s different: sales are rising as America enters its worst contraction since the Great Depression. While more than one in five workers has filed for unemployment, some people are shelling out upwards of $100,000 so they can hit the road while staying away from everyone else._

The article passes too quickly over the issues of where all the new owners are going to use their RVs, and how they're going to get them serviced. 

Campgrounds in Canada and the U.S. were already VERY well-filled and the new sites slated to become available this year would only have eased a crunch problem. Now it will become even harder to secure a site with services (water, electricity, sewer) and the wide-open un-serviced spaces where people can camp in the U.S. (nationally-owned lands such as national forests, bureau of land management, corps of engineers, some parks) will become busier and more cluttered.

RV service was already severely stretched beyond capacity almost everywhere. Many new RVs will turn that into a crisis since, due to poor construction quality, new ones often need service and the older ones will still be breaking.

We live in interesting times.


----------



## colchar

tomee2 said:


> Covid is new, novel coronavirus, no one on earth has antibodies to it.



Sure they do. They have been saying all along that there are people with a natural immunity.


----------



## Electraglide

laristotle said:


>


I'll take being elderly thank you.


----------



## boyscout

tomee2 said:


> And the result of that simple analysis, which I'm sure public health officials in every jurisdiction did all of Feb and March, was a "holy shit" moment for the politicians.


I'm known to be critical of politicians from time to time  but I don't put much of this problem on them, not even the ones I don't like.

No, this event revealed a critical failure of bureaucratic government. We had people and departments *specifically dedicated* and well paid for well over a decade to prepare us for an event like this one, and ALL signs indicate that they did nearly nothing effective.

There should not have been a "holy shit" moment for them but it was glaringly obvious that there was, and it was WELL into the emergence of the virus. They lurched and stumbled, made up stuff as they went along, and outright lied about things being in place to protect us that were weeks and even months from actually BEING in place. Their abject failures directly caused many deaths and cost us many billions of dollars.

The politicians likely had their "holy shit" moments when they learned how completely unprepared we were, fifteen years after SARS and more than a decade after first Liberal and then Conservative government committees told the bureaucrats they should prepare for such an event. It's absolutely amazing that government staff didn't have detailed plans and training for controlling entry points, evaluating and communicating about risks, preparing to VERY quickly produce and use tests across the country, tracing contacts, managing supplies (they threw out millions of dollars of still-desperately-needed supplies just months before the pandemic struck!) and SO much more.

Abject failure. Holy shit is right.


----------



## allthumbs56

boyscout said:


> Here's a consequence of Covid-19 that may surprise some:
> 
> Scared Americans Desperate to Travel Are Buying Up ‘Covid Campers’
> 
> _For decades, sales of motor homes and travel trailers you hitch to your car were a reliable indicator of the beginning—and end—of a recession. Sales would dip as a downturn approached, and rise right before a recovery. But this time, it’s different: sales are rising as America enters its worst contraction since the Great Depression. While more than one in five workers has filed for unemployment, some people are shelling out upwards of $100,000 so they can hit the road while staying away from everyone else._
> 
> The article passes too quickly over the issues of where all the new owners are going to use their RVs, and how they're going to get them serviced.
> 
> Campgrounds in Canada and the U.S. were already VERY well-filled and the new sites slated to become available this year would only have eased a crunch problem. Now it will become even harder to secure a site with services (water, electricity, sewer) and the wide-open un-serviced spaces where people can camp in the U.S. (nationally-owned lands such as national forests, bureau of land management, corps of engineers, some parks) will become busier and more cluttered.
> 
> RV service was already severely stretched beyond capacity almost everywhere. Many new RVs will turn that into a crisis since, due to poor construction quality, new ones often need service and the older ones will still be breaking.
> 
> We live in interesting times.


Given the ages of the majority of Covid victims I would expect to see a lot of RV's and seasonal sites for sale soon.


----------



## boyscout

allthumbs56 said:


> Given the ages of the majority of Covid victims I would expect to see a lot of RV's and seasonal sites for sale soon.


Ohhh that's harsh!


----------



## tomee2

boyscout said:


> I'm known to be critical of politicians from time to time  but I don't put much of this problem on them, not even the ones I don't like.
> 
> No, this event revealed a critical failure of bureaucratic government. We had people and departments *specifically dedicated* and well paid for well over a decade to prepare us for an event like this one, and ALL signs indicate that they did nearly nothing effective.
> 
> There should not have been a "holy shit" moment for them but it was glaringly obvious that there was, and it was WELL into the emergence of the virus. They lurched and stumbled, made up stuff as they went along, and outright lied about things being in place to protect us that were weeks and even months from actually BEING in place. Their abject failures directly caused many deaths and cost us many billions of dollars.
> 
> The politicians likely had their "holy shit" moments when they learned how completely unprepared we were, fifteen years after SARS and more than a decade after first Liberal and then Conservative government committees told the bureaucrats they should prepare for such an event. It's absolutely amazing that government staff didn't have detailed plans and training for controlling entry points, evaluating and communicating about risks, preparing to VERY quickly produce and use tests across the country, tracing contacts, managing supplies (they threw out millions of dollars of still-desperately-needed supplies just months before the pandemic struck!) and SO much more.
> 
> Abject failure. Holy shit is right.


Totally agree! 
When they first reported we had some cases in toronto and they let them go home(!), I said to myself wtf? Did they forget about SARS? 
I still dont know if we ever had proper screening done at airports. Back with SARs they were taking temperatures etc.


----------



## allthumbs56

boyscout said:


> Ohhh that's harsh!


I took no pleasure typing it.

But I'm not wrong either


----------



## Wardo

Airstream trailers look cool but every time I think about buying one I remember that I hate camping.


----------



## Electraglide

allthumbs56 said:


> Given the ages of the majority of Covid victims I would expect to see a lot of RV's and seasonal sites for sale soon.


Going by this almost half the people with Covid 19 in Canada are between 30 and 60. They're the ones with the RVs etc.
Canada: COVID-19 cases by age | Statista
and 82% of the deaths have been in long term care so they probably don't have RVs and seasonal sites.
82% of Canada’s COVID-19 deaths have been in long-term care, new data reveals
If they do have an RV it's probably been sitting in a storage place for the last 5 years or more and the seasonal site went a long time ago too.


----------



## vadsy

Wardo said:


> Airstream trailers look cool but every time I think about buying one I remember that I hate camping.


same,., where are the good lakes in Ontario to buy a cabin?


----------



## bolero

boyscout said:


> No, this event revealed a critical failure of bureaucratic government. We had people and departments *specifically dedicated* and well paid for well over a decade to prepare us for an event like this one, and ALL signs indicate that they did nearly nothing effective.
> 
> There should not have been a "holy shit" moment for them but it was glaringly obvious that there was, and it was WELL into the emergence of the virus. They lurched and stumbled, made up stuff as they went along, and outright lied about things being in place to protect us that were weeks and even months from actually BEING in place. Their abject failures directly caused many deaths and cost us many billions of dollars.
> 
> The politicians likely had their "holy shit" moments when they learned how completely unprepared we were, fifteen years after SARS and more than a decade after first Liberal and then Conservative government committees told the bureaucrats they should prepare for such an event. It's absolutely amazing that government staff didn't have detailed plans and training for controlling entry points, evaluating and communicating about risks, preparing to VERY quickly produce and use tests across the country, tracing contacts, managing supplies (they threw out millions of dollars of still-desperately-needed supplies just months before the pandemic struck!) and SO much more.
> 
> Abject failure. Holy shit is right.


agree 100%


----------



## Eric Reesor

Finally I can sell my other rv for good bucks!!!!


----------



## bolero

I'll roam the land, driving one of the last of the V8's


----------



## Wardo

vadsy said:


> same,., where are the good lakes in Ontario to buy a cabin?


Deliverance County north of Barrie. Lots of good deals on property after the nouveau riche from Toronto moved up there, renovated everything and then suddenly abandoned the place when they started getting lucky with the locals.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Science is slowly getting closer to answers.

Global report: new clues about how coronavirus formed as US severs ties with WHO


----------



## bolero

good info, thx for the link

have we heard any statements or reports from the virus research lab, located in Wuhan?

I presume they might have more advanced info than most, since they were already researching this stuff?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

bolero said:


> good info, thx for the link
> 
> have we heard any statements or reports from the virus research lab, located in Wuhan?
> 
> I presume they might have more advanced info than most, since they were already researching this stuff?


Not that I know of from that particular place, but CanSino (Canada and Chinese joint venture) announced clinical trials on a vaccine a couple of weeks ago as well as Moderna Technologies from Massechusetts.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Not that I know of from that particular place, but CanSino (Canada and Chinese joint venture) announced clinical trials on a vaccine a couple of weeks ago as well as Moderna Technologies from Massechusetts.



Another Chinese lab (actually two of them working together, IIRC) has announced that it might have a vaccine available by the end of the year.


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> Another Chinese lab (actually two of them working together, IIRC) has announced that it might have a vaccine available by the end of the year.


The question is whether you want to stick something virus-related from China in your arm.


----------



## bolero

allthumbs56 said:


> The question is whether you want to stick something virus-related from China in your arm.


ha! but apparently most of the raw ingredients for pharmaceuticals worldwide, are sourced from China anyway


----------



## colchar

bolero said:


> ha! but apparently most of the raw ingredients for pharmaceuticals worldwide, are sourced from China anyway



Yeah you're pretty much fucked either way on that one.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> Yeah you're pretty much fucked either way on that one.


Or protected. Doesn't matter where it comes from, if it works, it works.


----------



## colchar

Electraglide said:


> Or protected. Doesn't matter where it comes from, if it works, it works.



I meant you're fucked if you want a vaccine but don't trust stuff from China.


----------



## Wardo

allthumbs56 said:


> The question is whether you want to stick something virus-related from China in your arm.


Given how much they like us it's likely to come in a suppository form.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> I meant you're fucked if you want a vaccine but don't trust stuff from China.


Figured that.


----------



## Electraglide

Wardo said:


> Given how much they like us it's likely to come in a suppository form.


If you're not a big fan of needles that would work.


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> Yeah you're pretty much fucked either way on that one.


Probably contains MSG


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> Probably contains MSG



No MSG!!!!!!

It probably leaves you wanting more vaccine a couple of hours later.


----------



## player99

I have been keeping an eye on the daily deaths. I think yesterday (Sunday) had the highest national deaths in one day at 222. Usually it's around 100-120 a day.


----------



## Wardo

Yeah this ain’t going away anytime soon; the infection rate for Ontario is pretty consistent based on the testing in place.


----------



## Guitar101

I would like to know how many people in the area where I live have the virus, have succumbed to the virus and have recovered from the virus. If I ask the Google lady that resides in my Google mini "what's the weather like today?" She tells me the weather in my area. If I ask "where can I buy garden plants" she says I have a few places near you and lists the places. If I ask "how many people have the covid-19 virus" she answers "sorry, I don't have that information about the virus". I feel the more information we have about the virus around the area where we live could help us make better decisions in our daily lives. Is it possible? Probably not.


----------



## Electraglide

Guitar101 said:


> I would like to know how many people in the area where I live have the virus, have succumbed to the virus and have recovered from the virus. If I ask the Google lady that resides in my Google mini "what's the weather like today?" She tells me the weather in my area. If I ask "where can I buy garden plants" she says I have a few places near you and lists the places. If I ask "how many people have the covid-19 virus" she answers "sorry, I don't have that information about the virus". I feel the more information we have about the virus around the area where we live could help us make better decisions in our daily lives. Is it possible? Probably not.


I did a google search for Calgary info. I used the keyboard. It showed all of Alberta and broke things down, mostly to areas and Calgary and Edmonton. Doesn't make a bit of difference in my daily life.


----------



## player99

*SARS-CoV-2 Transmission*
_Last updated: April 16, 5:00 GMT _
"COVID-19 is a *new disease* and we are* still learning about how it spreads*" according to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) [source]

In general, respiratory virus infection can occur through: [source]


*contact* (direct or indirect)
*droplet spray in short range* transmission
* aerosol in long-rang*e transmission (airborne transmission)
*Close Contact (6 feet, 1.8 meters) and Respiratory Droplets*
"The virus is thought to spread mainly from person-to-person.


Between people who are in* close contact *with one another (within about 6 feet)
Through *respiratory droplets* produced when an infected person coughs, sneezes *or talks*" [source]
This idea, that large droplets of virus-laden mucus are the primary mode of transmission, guides the US CDC's advice to maintain at least a *6-foot distance: *"Maintaining good social distance (about 6 feet) is very important in preventing the spread of COVID-19" [source]

*Is 6 feet enough?*
Some experts contacted by _LiveScience_ think that* 6 feet (1.8 meters) is not enough* [source]

*Air Currents*
"*Larger respiratory droplets* (>5 μm) remain in the air for only a short time and *travel only short distances*, generally <1 m" (less than 3.3 feet) [source] [source] [source]

"Virus-laden small (<5 μm) *aerosolized droplets* can remain in the air and* travel long distances*, >1 m" (more than 3.3 feet) [source] [source]

A study of transmission occurring in a restaurant between people at a distance above 1 meter, observed that "*strong airflow from the air conditioner could have propagated droplets*" [source]

*Humidity (best if between 50% and 80%)*
"It is assumed that temperature and humidity modulate the viability of viruses by affecting the properties of viral surface proteins and lipid membrane" [source] Relative humidity (RH, or _Saturation Ratio: _the state of vapor equilibrium in room air) *affects all infectious droplets with respiratory viruses*, *independent of their source* (*respiratory tract or aerosolized *from any fluid) and* location* *(in air* or *settled on surfaces*). Relative humidity therefore affects all transmission ways but has the most pronounced effect on airborne transmission. [source]

"Measurements of indoor humidities in 40 residential apartments in New York (19) and in 6 high-quality commercial buildings in the Midwest (20) showed indoor vapor pressure of below 10 mb or indoor *RH of below 24% in the winter*" [source]

Experiments conducted in a study indicated "a* striking correlation of the stability of winter viruses at low RH* (*20–50%*), while the stability of* summer or all-year viruses enhanced at higher RH (80%)*" [source]

*Airborne Transmission*
The WHO states that "Respiratory infections can be transmitted through droplets of different sizes: when the *droplet particles* are >5-10 μm in diameter they are referred to as respiratory droplets, and *when they are <5μm in diameter, they are referred to as droplet nuclei*. According to current evidence, *COVID-19 virus is primarily transmitted between people through respiratory droplets and contact routes*" [source]

The WHO defines* airborne transmission* as "the spread of an infectious agent caused by the dissemination of *droplet nuclei *that remain infectious when suspended in air over long distances and time" [source]

*Air Distance: up to 4 meters (13 feet) might be possible (in hospitals)*
"*The maximum transmission distance of SARS-CoV-2 aerosol might be 4 m*" (13.1 feet), according to a study published on April 10 on _Emerging Infectious Diseases_, a journal of the US CDC which also found that "SARS-CoV-2 was *widely distributed in the air and on object surfaces* in both the ICU and general ward (GW), implying a potentially high infection risk for medical staff and other close contacts" [source]

This is true in a hospital setting and doesn't necessarily apply to other settings. The WHO says that "in the context of COVID-19, *airborne transmission may be possible in specific circumstances and settings in which procedures or support treatments that generate aerosols are performed*;_ i.e., endotracheal intubation, bronchoscopy, open suctioning, administration of nebulized treatment, manual ventilation before intubation, turning the patient to the prone position, disconnecting the patient from the ventilator, non-invasive positive-pressure ventilation, tracheostomy, and cardiopulmonary resuscitation_" [source]

And concludes that "*further studies are needed to determine whether it is possible* to detect COVID-19 virus in air samples from patient rooms *where no procedures or support treatments that generate aerosols* are ongoing" [source]

*Air Duration: up to 3 hours (but not in normal conditions, according to WHO)*
Virus can remain* viable "in aerosols up to 3 hours*" found a study published in The New England Journal of Medicine on March 17 [source]

The WHO notes that these findings need to be interpreted carefully: "in this experimental study, aerosols were generated using a three-jet Collison nebulizer and fed into a Goldberg drum under controlled laboratory conditions. This is a* high-powered machine that does not reflect normal human cough conditions*. Further, the finding of COVID-19 virus in aerosol particles* up to 3 hours does not reflect a clinical setting in which aerosol-generating procedures are performed* - that is, this was an experimentally induced aerosol-generating procedure" [source]

continued...


----------



## player99

*Objects and Surfaces*
The virus could spread by *touching an object or surface* with virus present from an infected person, and* then touching the mouth, nose or eyes*.

Surface contamination as observed in the study cited above [source]:


* Computer mouse* (ICU 6/8, 75%; GW 1/5, 20%)
* Trash cans* (ICU 3/5, 60%; GW 0/8)
*Sickbed handrails* (ICU 6/14, 42.9%; GW 0/12)
*Doorknobs* (GW 1/12, 8.3%)
76.5% of all personal items sampled at the University of Nebraska Medical Center (UNMC) were determined to be positive for SARS-CoV-2 [source]

Of these samples, 81.3% of the miscellaneous personal items were positive by PCR, which included:


*Exercise equipment*
*Medical equipment *(spirometer, pulse oximeter, nasal cannula)
*PC *and* iPads*
*Reading glasses*

Other findings:


* Cellular phones* (83.3% positive for viral RNA)
*Remote controls *for in-room TVs (64.7% percent positive)
*Toilets *(81.0% positive)
*Room surfaces* (80.4% of all sampled)
*Bedside tables and bed rails *(75.0%)
*Window ledges* (81.8%)
*Duration of contamination on objects and surfaces*
Although the virus titer was greatly reduced, viable SARS-CoV-2 was measured for this length of time:


*Plastic*: up to* 2-3 days*
*Stainless Stee*l: up to *2-3 days*
*Cardboard*: up to *1 day*
*Copper*: up to *4 hours*
[source]

*Floor*
"The rate of positivity was relatively high for floor swab samples (ICU 7/10, 70%; GW 2/13, 15.4%), perhaps because of *gravity and air flow causing most virus droplets to float to the ground*.

In addition, *as medical staff walk around the ward*, the virus can be tracked all over the floor, as indicated by the *100% rate of positivity from the floor in the pharmacy, where there were no patients*.

Furthermore, *half of the samples from the soles of the ICU medical staff shoes tested positive*. Therefore, the soles of medical staff shoes might function as carriers. The 3 weak positive results from the floor of dressing room 4 might also arise from these carriers. We *highly recommend that persons disinfect shoe soles before walking out of wards containing COVID-19 patients*." [source]


----------



## player99

Written by a nurse who works with ventilators: 
For people who don't understand what it means to be on a ventilator but want to take the chance of going back to work....
For starters, it's NOT an oxygen mask put over the mouth while the patient is comfortably lying down and reading magazines.
Ventilation for Covid-19 is a painful intubation that goes down your throat and stays there until you live or you die. It is done under anesthesia for 2 to 3 weeks without moving, often upside down, with a tube inserted from the mouth up to the trachea and allows you to breathe to the rhythm of the lung machine.
The patient can't talk or eat, or do anything naturally - the machine keeps you alive. The discomfort and pain they feel from this means medical experts have to administer sedatives and painkillers to ensure tube tolerance for as long as the machine is needed. It's like being in an artificial coma.
After 20 days from this treatment, a young patient loses 40% muscle mass, and gets mouth or vocal cords trauma, as well as possible pulmonary or heart complications.
It is for this reason that old or already weak people can't withstand the treatment and die. Many of us are in this boat ... so stay safe unless you want to take the chance of ending up here. This is NOT the flu.
Add a tube into your stomach, either through your nose or skin for liquid food, a sticky bag around your butt to collect the diarrhea, a foley to collect urine, an IV for fluids and meds, an A-line f to monitor your BP that is completely dependent upon finely calculated med doses, teams of nurses, CRNA’s and MA’s to reposition your limbs every two hours and lying on a mat that circulates ice cold fluid to help bring down your 104 degree temp.
Anyone want to try all that out? Stay home. Stay safe and well!


----------



## Jim DaddyO

How are we doing in Canada? Not so good as compared to lots of places in the world. A weak and slow response is costing lives. This is a VERY interesting read. I would insert quotes, but I would end up posting the whole article as it's pretty much all important.

How Canada has bungled the COVID-19 endgame - Macleans.ca


----------



## Milkman

Gee, I wonder if we'll see a community contact outbreak in Toronto in a week or two? Not a chance in hell would I want to be in that crowd.


----------



## Distortion

Guitar101 said:


> I would like to know how many people in the area where I live have the virus, have succumbed to the virus and have recovered from the virus. If I ask the Google lady that resides in my Google mini "what's the weather like today?" She tells me the weather in my area. If I ask "where can I buy garden plants" she says I have a few places near you and lists the places. If I ask "how many people have the covid-19 virus" she answers "sorry, I don't have that information about the virus". I feel the more information we have about the virus around the area where we live could help us make better decisions in our daily lives. Is it possible? Probably not.


very easy to get your regional numbers. Just watch your local news . Morning shows are best.


----------



## Eric Reesor

The only hope for us seniors is that we have enough of an immune predisposition to fight off the virus before it does extreme damage to the lungs. If I am infected I will try a few hail Mary things that I know about from many years studying the history of the traditional medicines of the Indigenous Peoples of BC and Canada. I will not discuss them because they certainly are not as dangerous as drinking or injecting bleach but because they are not scientifically proven to actually work they are just experiments. If I can delay for a period of time having to be transported to the hospital after being infected what do I have to lose? I will tell you that I have seen a specific way that the interior indigenous peoples of Northern BC treat severe respiratory problems and I have seen it work.

I was a level 3 first aid attendant on a seismic show north of Fort Nelson, we had a crew of 12-14 locals working doing the cut lines with saws. The crew boss from Edmonton and a few of the other workers from the exploration company who did the office jobs and laid out the show suddenly came down with something that was taking them off the job and it spread like crazy. After 4 days of watching the crew boss become almost hypoxic from a respiratory infection, the local chief of the First Nation administered a treatment that seemed to work very well in only 2 days. Whereas the workers that returned to Edmonton did not come back for over a week and a half! It kept the show going and the crew gang who used the treatment all quickly recovered from some God forsaken upper respiratory infection that the hospital in Fort Nelson just called a very severe cold. All I could legally do was advise them to take Tylenol as a pain killing mild anti-inflammatory. Or if they developed symptoms severe enough to start to lose consciousness transport them to the hospital on O2 10ltrs pm while maintaining their airway and shut down the show cause I was the only bandaid on site. These were all hard working and very healthy individuals who certainly did not want to lose the income we were making which was very good for all of us. THIS was not a Friday flue it was a SOB of a upper respiratory track infection that hit a work camp. I caught the bug and got over it quickly after the Chief taught me how to treat myself. Call him a shaman if you must but his cultural knowledge, kindness and grace as a human was evident from first meeting and I deeply respect him and all who he was chosen to lead.

So I have personally witnessed a very specific Indigenous medical treatment that seems to deal with severe respiratory ailments that are most likely viral caused work and that is all I can say about what I saw happen. In my opinion it is worth investigating but I would never recommend it as a cure or treatment like that closet Nazi moron who listens to quackery down in the US does with chloroquine and bleach injections.


----------



## keto

player99 said:


> I have been keeping an eye on the daily deaths. I think yesterday (Sunday) had the highest national deaths in one day at 222. Usually it's around 100-120 a day.


Canada approaches 91K coronavirus cases; sharp rise in daily deaths due to glitch

"Quebec reported a sharp rise in deaths — 202 in total — on Sunday due to a technical glitch. Only 37 of these deaths were from the last 24 hours, while the rest of the fatalities date back several days and weren’t taken into account earlier due to technical issues."


----------



## Eric Reesor

keto said:


> Canada approaches 91K coronavirus cases; sharp rise in daily deaths due to glitch
> 
> "Quebec reported a sharp rise in deaths — 202 in total — on Sunday due to a technical glitch. Only 37 of these deaths were from the last 24 hours, while the rest of the fatalities date back several days and weren’t taken into account earlier due to technical issues."


My computers usually die from technical issues. Thank you I will pass on checking out for that reason, thank heavens this ain't the Hotel California we is livin' in! Or is it?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Eric Reesor said:


> The only hope for us seniors is that we have enough of an immune predisposition to fight off the virus before it does extreme damage to the lungs. If I am infected I will try a few hail Mary things that I know about from many years studying the history of the traditional medicines of the Indigenous Peoples of BC and Canada. I will not discuss them because they certainly are not as dangerous as drinking or injecting bleach but because they are not scientifically proven to actually work they are just experiments. If I can delay for a period of time having to be transported to the hospital after being infected what do I have to lose? I will tell you that I have seen a specific way that the interior indigenous peoples of Northern BC treat severe respiratory problems and I have seen it work.
> 
> I was a level 3 first aid attendant on a seismic show north of Fort Nelson, we had a crew of 12-14 locals working doing the cut lines with saws. The crew boss from Edmonton and a few of the other workers from the exploration company who did the office jobs and laid out the show suddenly came down with something that was taking them off the job and it spread like crazy. After 4 days of watching the crew boss become almost hypoxic from a respiratory infection, the local chief of the First Nation administered a treatment that seemed to work very well in only 2 days. Whereas the workers that returned to Edmonton did not come back for over a week and a half! It kept the show going and the crew gang who used the treatment all quickly recovered from some God forsaken upper respiratory infection that the hospital in Fort Nelson just called a very severe cold. All I could legally do was advise them to take Tylenol as a pain killing mild anti-inflammatory. Or if they developed symptoms severe enough to start to lose consciousness transport them to the hospital on O2 10ltrs pm while maintaining their airway and shut down the show cause I was the only bandaid on site. These were all hard working and very healthy individuals who certainly did not want to lose the income we were making which was very good for all of us. THIS was not a Friday flue it was a SOB of a upper respiratory track infection that hit a work camp. I caught the bug and got over it quickly after the Chief taught me how to treat myself. Call him a shaman if you must but his cultural knowledge, kindness and grace as a human was evident from first meeting and I deeply respect him and all who he was chosen to lead.
> 
> So I have personally witnessed a very specific Indigenous medical treatment that seems to deal with severe respiratory ailments that are most likely viral caused work and that is all I can say about what I saw happen. In my opinion it is worth investigating but I would never recommend it as a cure or treatment like that closet Nazi moron who listens to quackery down in the US does with chloroquine and bleach injections.



It only makes sense that if you have something prevalent to the locallity, the locals would likely be familiar with it. That knowledge is sometime very valuable. Not knocking western medicine, nor promoting non scientific (by today's standards) methods, but sometimes, it is what it is.


----------



## Guitar101

Electraglide said:


> I did a google search for Calgary info. I used the keyboard. It showed all of Alberta and broke things down, mostly to areas and Calgary and Edmonton. Doesn't make a bit of difference in my daily life.


Your still using a keyboard?


----------



## Electraglide

Eric Reesor said:


> The only hope for us seniors is that we have enough of an immune predisposition to fight off the virus before it does extreme damage to the lungs. If I am infected I will try a few hail Mary things that I know about from many years studying the history of the traditional medicines of the Indigenous Peoples of BC and Canada. I will not discuss them because they certainly are not as dangerous as drinking or injecting bleach but because they are not scientifically proven to actually work they are just experiments. If I can delay for a period of time having to be transported to the hospital after being infected what do I have to lose? I will tell you that I have seen a specific way that the interior indigenous peoples of Northern BC treat severe respiratory problems and I have seen it work.
> 
> I was a level 3 first aid attendant on a seismic show north of Fort Nelson, we had a crew of 12-14 locals working doing the cut lines with saws. The crew boss from Edmonton and a few of the other workers from the exploration company who did the office jobs and laid out the show suddenly came down with something that was taking them off the job and it spread like crazy. After 4 days of watching the crew boss become almost hypoxic from a respiratory infection, the local chief of the First Nation administered a treatment that seemed to work very well in only 2 days. Whereas the workers that returned to Edmonton did not come back for over a week and a half! It kept the show going and the crew gang who used the treatment all quickly recovered from some God forsaken upper respiratory infection that the hospital in Fort Nelson just called a very severe cold. All I could legally do was advise them to take Tylenol as a pain killing mild anti-inflammatory. Or if they developed symptoms severe enough to start to lose consciousness transport them to the hospital on O2 10ltrs pm while maintaining their airway and shut down the show cause I was the only bandaid on site. These were all hard working and very healthy individuals who certainly did not want to lose the income we were making which was very good for all of us. THIS was not a Friday flue it was a SOB of a upper respiratory track infection that hit a work camp. I caught the bug and got over it quickly after the Chief taught me how to treat myself. Call him a shaman if you must but his cultural knowledge, kindness and grace as a human was evident from first meeting and I deeply respect him and all who he was chosen to lead.
> 
> So I have personally witnessed a very specific Indigenous medical treatment that seems to deal with severe respiratory ailments that are most likely viral caused work and that is all I can say about what I saw happen. In my opinion it is worth investigating but I would never recommend it as a cure or treatment like that closet Nazi moron who listens to quackery down in the US does with chloroquine and bleach injections.


Let's see now, willow bark, rose hips, parts of wild rushes and some mallow root if you can get it. Make into a tea, mix with animal fat and spread over the chest and shoulders and steam and dry heat in a sweat lodge. It varies a bit from tribe to tribe.


----------



## Electraglide

Guitar101 said:


> Your still using a keyboard?


Works better than a glorified speaker.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Guitar101 said:


> Your still using a keyboard?


It gets you into joints Siri won't even mention.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

10,000 Canadians to be tested for COVID-19 antibodies in hopes of understanding immunity


----------



## Milkman

I use a keyboard or mouse, sometimes a track pad or track ball, but never a voice command system.

No siri, no alexa, no cortana.


----------



## Eric Reesor

Electraglide said:


> Let's see now, willow bark, rose hips, parts of wild rushes and some mallow root if you can get it. Make into a tea, mix with animal fat and spread over the chest and shoulders and steam and dry heat in a sweat lodge. It varies a bit from tribe to tribe.


Not even close, and no there were no incantations, hocus pocus or other psychological aspects to the method. The method was absolutely fascinating and completely logical. No religious European style "doctrine of signs" crap, bleeding to let out the evil spirits or other magical slight of hand applied so that the person was tricked at all in any way into thinking the vapour was anything other than what it was. Not a question at all of it working purely only by a belief system.

All I will say is that the Indigenous remedy was inhaled and it wasn't cannabis or other introduced non native vegetative plant fungus smoke. It was so simple and logical that I was astonished.

I fully expect negative responses to what I have posted. But to completely ignore something that has been used for many thousands of years to treat severe respiratory illness that was taught to a very astute and well educated Canadian Indigenous leader to treat his peoples is extremely fool hardy at best. And that is why I was gracious enough to try the remedy and not interfere in him showing it to the engineer who at the time was taking just about every off the shelf cold and cough remedy available in Fort Nelson in an attempt be able to work and finish laying out the show: While the crews could still set and access, set charges and service many kilometres of wires without breaking through the ice with their trucks and off road machines before the ground thawed completely and the job became impossible in the muskeg.

Without the quick recovery of the majority of Indigenous workers and the lead engineer the multi million dollar show would have to been postponed for another year, it was that bad. The show was almost shut down because of the "horrible cold" as it was called. I was afraid for a while that some workers might contract bacterial pneumonia if it kept up so I called the ERPS in Fort Nelson for advice, of which they had none other than follow the standard evacuation protocols that I was already doing. I didn't have to send anyone off the show but I had to recommend it to a few who were so sick that they could barely speak. My case of this particular "chest cold" made me so horse I had a hard time doing the personnel checks by radio without coughing my brains out. I was first on and last off so I did the head counts and kept track of the movements of all the workers over a 35 sq kilometre area. The show was a max head count over area for single bandaid job so the pay was fantastic.

That is the full story of what I witnessed occur.

We also ignore fabulous west coast Indigenous food sources in our blind ignorance and ecological stupidity. The best example of which is the food stuff that Lewis and Clarke had to eat to survive once they reached the lower Columbia river. Namely wapatoo and other West Coast vegetative plants like Camus bulbs, both of which are a fantastic and highly productive source of complex starches and can very easily be grown in most regions a all along the lower BC coast and down all the way to northern California. Clarke complained bitterly and rather humorously of his and the peoples flatulence from eating camus and wapatoo, which is understandable, The Camus bulbs are almost as packed with vegetative proteins as beans. So if you don't drink plenty of water when you eat them then the tooting will be machine gun in nature.

The indigenous peoples of BC did not starve that is for sure: That is until we completely screwed up a very productive *cultivated* ecology that they had developed over thousands of years. Now we have almost wiped out the once super abundant native fish in our blind greed and ecological stupidity.

The Indigenous Peoples health was far better than ours and their life spans were even considerably longer, that is until our diseases, diet, alcohol and drugs almost wiped them out in the 1860's to the 1880's. Sure, most of them hate our guts but they sure as hell have very good reasons.

My experience being their guest has been nothing but a wonderful learning experience and a cultural awakening. Here is a sad and very ironic part of our sad history in dealing with Indigenous people on the West Coast. A sailor or perhaps more than one with the crew of Captain Cook raped some of the women of Nootka Sound. So their very first experience with the "English white men" was to discover that not only were they afraid of cleaning themselves by bathing before intercourse they also all stank to high heaven and thought nothing of disgracing their very clean and sanitary hosts by taking local women for non consensual conjugal purposes without even asking tribal consent: but far worse they were also two faced lying ass-holes as well as rapists.
Cook had strongly prohibited this and did desperately tried to stop this sort of lawless behaviour from happening. But by this time he was losing control of some of the crew and could not bring the offending sailor to justice without the potential of a mutiny and his losing command. Captain Cook was a great man but he was brought down as a commander by some well off adventuring English ass-holes that he mistakenly allowed to take too much control of his final voyage looking for the North West passage in an attempt to beat the Spanish to new lands and a new faster trade route for Britannia.

What really occurred at first meeting was a huge cultural and social faux pas to say the very least. The leaders were considering burning his ship at night and slaughtering all their guests. But they kept it to themselves in fear of another ship of white savages coming with even more guns. By this time they knew all about firearms from the Spanish who thought nothing of just blasting away at west coast "Indians". These are the lessons that are not forgotten by the all Indigenous peoples of BC to this very day.
Cook was just lucky his crew didn't try that same shit on Haida Gwaii which at that time had the a huge contingent of highly trained warriors with the boating and navigational skills to kick some serious English ass, regardless of having to go up against a few jerks with muskets and highly inaccurate cannon on a very slow huge boat! The Haida were also very familiar with what the savage white men were capable of by that time in history. The Haida would have instantly turned on their guests and burned the ships and slaughtered the lot for that kind of behaviour. Cook would not have been killed where it happened, it would have happened in what is now Canada and most likely no one would have survived to tell the tale of what happened. The Hawaiian peoples let the jerks off very lightly indeed by not storming the ship and setting it aflame a huge error in judgement. 

I fully respect the cultural knowledge and the real history of what happened to the Indigenous peoples here in North America. Some of their very best leaders who I have had the privilege to meet and exchange thoughts with have taught me a great deal over my short life time of a mere 67 years.

Not every plant and fungus that they have learned to use over thousands of years of experience has been investigated for chemical properties, not by a long shot. There is likely as many undiscovered properties of native plants with complex chemical compounds that could become useful for food and medicine here in Western North America, as there is in what is left of the Amazon rain forest. Unfortunately and to our shame and discredit as a people, we are just too stupid, ignorant and prejudiced to open our eyes and minds to learn about what is all around us.

Enough of a rant. On this topic I will not post any more, because I hope to be starting a topic related .org web site fairly soon.
I am sorry for this long and detailed post on the history of the West Coast of Canada, 
Many will just TL/DR and click or tap away from what I have written. These are my opinions based upon my life experience and as such all are entitled to either agree or disagree with what I write. What ever floats your boat. Either way I am not at all offended by criticism of what I write, I welcome it as long it is civilised discourse that does not threaten anyone, it is fine beside me at my fire.

Man I have to get out and go camping and fishing sometime this year instead of just typing and studying and playing guitar for hours and hours! This COVID ENDLESS ROUNDS OF PREVENTION MEASURES REALLY REAALLLY SUCKS*#*(

The only GOOD NEWS is that I should be actually recording again and very soon when my brother finally finishes french polishing the guitars this week! The Torres style built one we have already strung and tested and it is going to be a really great classical guitar from first impressions. Low tension D'Addarios for the first stringing and it sounds great for a brand new instrument with both depth and bright sound and balance in the mid range. This is not an actual recording of the instrument it is just a little longer video of the build process with Segovia playing the music not me yet.


----------



## colchar

GuitarsCanada said:


> 10,000 Canadians to be tested for COVID-19 antibodies in hopes of understanding immunity



Sign me up.


----------



## colchar

Eric Reesor said:


> Not even close, and no there were no incantations, hocus pocus or other psychological aspects to the method. The method was absolutely fascinating and completely logical. No religious European style "doctrine of signs" crap, bleeding to let out the evil spirits or other magical slight of hand applied so that the person was tricked at all in any way into thinking the vapour was anything other than what it was. Not a question at all of it working purely only by a belief system.
> 
> All I will say is that the Indigenous remedy was inhaled and it wasn't cannabis or other introduced non native vegetative plant fungus smoke. It was so simple and logical that I was astonished.
> 
> I fully expect negative responses to what I have posted. But to completely ignore something that has been used for many thousands of years to treat severe respiratory illness that was taught to a very astute and well educated Canadian Indigenous leader to treat his peoples is extremely fool hardy at best. And that is why I was gracious enough to try the remedy and not interfere in him showing it to the engineer who at the time was taking just about every off the shelf cold and cough remedy available in Fort Nelson in an attempt be able to work and finish laying out the show: While the crews could still set and access, set charges and service many kilometres of wires without breaking through the ice with their trucks and off road machines before the ground thawed completely and the job became impossible in the muskeg.
> 
> Without the quick recovery of the majority of Indigenous workers and the lead engineer the multi million dollar show would have to been postponed for another year, it was that bad. The show was almost shut down because of the "horrible cold" as it was called. I was afraid for a while that some workers might contract bacterial pneumonia if it kept up so I called the ERPS in Fort Nelson for advice, of which they had none other than follow the standard evacuation protocols that I was already doing. I didn't have to send anyone off the show but I had to recommend it to a few who were so sick that they could barely speak. My case of this particular "chest cold" made me so horse I had a hard time doing the personnel checks by radio without coughing my brains out. I was first on and last off so I did the head counts and kept track of the movements of all the workers over a 35 sq kilometre area. The show was a max head count over area for single bandaid job so the pay was fantastic.
> 
> That is the full story of what I witnessed occur.
> 
> We also ignore fabulous west coast Indigenous food sources in our blind ignorance and ecological stupidity. The best example of which is the food stuff that Lewis and Clarke had to eat to survive once they reached the lower Columbia river. Namely wapatoo and other West Coast vegetative plants like Camus bulbs, both of which are a fantastic and highly productive source of complex starches and can very easily be grown in most regions a all along the lower BC coast and down all the way to northern California. Clarke complained bitterly and rather humorously of his and the peoples flatulence from eating camus and wapatoo, which is understandable, The Camus bulbs are almost as packed with vegetative proteins as beans. So if you don't drink plenty of water when you eat them then the tooting will be machine gun in nature.
> 
> The indigenous peoples of BC did not starve that is for sure: That is until we completely screwed up a very productive *cultivated* ecology that they had developed over thousands of years. Now we have almost wiped out the once super abundant native fish in our blind greed and ecological stupidity.
> 
> The Indigenous Peoples health was far better than ours and their life spans were even considerably longer, that is until our diseases, diet, alcohol and drugs almost wiped them out in the 1860's to the 1880's. Sure, most of them hate our guts but they sure as hell have very good reasons.
> 
> My experience being their guest has been nothing but a wonderful learning experience and a cultural awakening. Here is a sad and very ironic part of our sad history in dealing with Indigenous people on the West Coast. A sailor or perhaps more than one with the crew of Captain Cook raped some of the women of Nootka Sound. So their very first experience with the "English white men" was to discover that not only were they afraid of cleaning themselves by bathing before intercourse they also all stank to high heaven and thought nothing of disgracing their very clean and sanitary hosts by taking local women for non consensual conjugal purposes without even asking tribal consent: but far worse they were also two faced lying ass-holes as well as rapists.
> Cook had strongly prohibited this and did desperately tried to stop this sort of lawless behaviour from happening. But by this time he was losing control of some of the crew and could not bring the offending sailor to justice without the potential of a mutiny and his losing command. Captain Cook was a great man but he was brought down as a commander by some well off adventuring English ass-holes that he mistakenly allowed to take too much control of his final voyage looking for the North West passage in an attempt to beat the Spanish to new lands and a new faster trade route for Britannia.
> 
> What really occurred at first meeting was a huge cultural and social faux pas to say the very least. The leaders were considering burning his ship at night and slaughtering all their guests. But they kept it to themselves in fear of another ship of white savages coming with even more guns. By this time they knew all about firearms from the Spanish who thought nothing of just blasting away at west coast "Indians". These are the lessons that are not forgotten by the all Indigenous peoples of BC to this very day.
> Cook was just lucky his crew didn't try that same shit on Haida Gwaii which at that time had the a huge contingent of highly trained warriors with the boating and navigational skills to kick some serious English ass, regardless of having to go up against a few jerks with muskets and highly inaccurate cannon on a very slow huge boat! The Haida were also very familiar with what the savage white men were capable of by that time in history. The Haida would have instantly turned on their guests and burned the ships and slaughtered the lot for that kind of behaviour. Cook would not have been killed where it happened, it would have happened in what is now Canada and most likely no one would have survived to tell the tale of what happened. The Hawaiian peoples let the jerks off very lightly indeed by not storming the ship and setting it aflame a huge error in judgement.
> 
> I fully respect the cultural knowledge and the real history of what happened to the Indigenous peoples here in North America. Some of their very best leaders who I have had the privilege to meet and exchange thoughts with have taught me a great deal over my short life time of a mere 67 years.
> 
> Not every plant and fungus that they have learned to use over thousands of years of experience has been investigated for chemical properties, not by a long shot. There is likely as many undiscovered properties of native plants with complex chemical compounds that could become useful for food and medicine here in Western North America, as there is in what is left of the Amazon rain forest. Unfortunately and to our shame and discredit as a people, we are just too stupid, ignorant and prejudiced to open our eyes and minds to learn about what is all around us.
> 
> Enough of a rant. On this topic I will not post any more, because I hope to be starting a topic related .org web site fairly soon.
> I am sorry for this long and detailed post on the history of the West Coast of Canada,




Most of this is a complete load of shite, but it certainly gave me a good laugh this morning.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

At least 164 migrant workers at one Ontario farm have tested positive for COVID-19


----------



## Milkman

GuitarsCanada said:


> At least 164 migrant workers at one Ontario farm have tested positive for COVID-19



Just wait until the numbers start coming in from this cluster F$%k. Then they'll do a half assed analysis and determine that the sudden spike in cases among the Toronto black community is due to systemic racism.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Milkman said:


> Just wait until the numbers start coming in from this cluster F$%k. Then they'll do a half assed analysis and determine that the sudden spike in cases among the Toronto black community is due to systemic racism.
> 
> View attachment 314926


Funny you should mention that. I read an article this morning that Toronto Public health has now requested that all data on COVID be categorized by race and location. Something they adamantly refused to consider until now.


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> Just wait until the numbers start coming in from this cluster F$%k. Then they'll do a half assed analysis and determine that the sudden spike in cases among the Toronto black community is due to systemic racism.
> 
> View attachment 314926


Calgary has had two and another is expected tomorrow. 








From the signs I saw while waiting for the c-train it seems they've resurrected this,








but nobody seemed to know the significance or who Huey or Bobby or for that matter who Malcom X was/is or that it's not a symbol of "peaceful protest". Will there be a jump in Coronavirus in Calgary? Guess we'll have to wait and see in 14 days.


GuitarsCanada said:


> Funny you should mention that. I read an article this morning that Toronto Public health has now requested that all data on COVID be categorized by race and location. Something they adamantly refused to consider until now.


Not too sure why race would be important. Location maybe.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

A friend of mine in Georgia is saying that states numbers are very near what they experienced during the peak of the pandemic. He believes relaxing guidlines is the reason.

There have been quite a few people on this thread that have noticed examples of other countries who have handled the pandemic quite well. Taiwan, New Zealand, and Australia for example. They locked down fast, hard and efficiently. Other countries started testing like crazy and also fared pretty well. The people on this thread have been suggesting and commenting on these actions as reasonable for almost a couple of months now. So if a bunch of guitar fans on a forum can see the logic, and have for so long, what the hell are the professionals looking at? If we followed some of the better examples around the world, we would be almost through this by now, ending the hit to the economy.


----------



## allthumbs56

The active cases here in Niagara doubled overnight from 23 to 46 as a result of an outbreak among migrant farm workers at one greenhouse. If it wasn't for these "flare ups" I'd say the numbers are definitely trending the right way.

I am also encouraged by those German doctors who report that the strains there appear to be getting weaker. It'd be nice if Covid-19 ended up being on par with the common cold.


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> The active cases here in Niagara doubled overnight from 23 to 46 as a result of an outbreak among migrant farm workers at one greenhouse. If it wasn't for these "flare ups" I'd say the numbers are definitely trending the right way.
> 
> I am also encouraged by those German doctors who report that the strains there appear to be getting weaker. It'd be nice if Covid-19 ended up being on par with the common cold.



Well some consider it no more serious than the seasonal flu.


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> I use a keyboard or mouse, sometimes a track pad or track ball, but never a voice command system.
> 
> No siri, no alexa, no cortana.


These voice operated things remind me of the jokes that ended. "Crunchbird my ass.". and, "Well, fu&k me!".


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> Well some consider it no more serious than the seasonal flu.



Yeah, I don't get that one. The flu took about 34,200 in all of 2018/19. The whole year. This has taken over 100,000 in about 4 months (the first being credited as Feb 28th in the Seattle area, but earlier deaths have been dated earlier in that month, it's not totally clear in the quick cursory check I did).


----------



## Electraglide

Eric Reesor said:


> Not even close, and no there were no incantations, hocus pocus or other psychological aspects to the method. The method was absolutely fascinating and completely logical. No religious European style "doctrine of signs" crap, bleeding to let out the evil spirits or other magical slight of hand applied so that the person was tricked at all in any way into thinking the vapour was anything other than what it was. Not a question at all of it working purely only by a belief system.
> 
> All I will say is that the Indigenous remedy was inhaled and it wasn't cannabis or other introduced non native vegetative plant fungus smoke. It was so simple and logical that I was astonished.
> 
> I fully expect negative responses to what I have posted. But to completely ignore something that has been used for many thousands of years to treat severe respiratory illness that was taught to a very astute and well educated Canadian Indigenous leader to treat his peoples is extremely fool hardy at best. And that is why I was gracious enough to try the remedy and not interfere in him showing it to the engineer who at the time was taking just about every off the shelf cold and cough remedy available in Fort Nelson in an attempt be able to work and finish laying out the show: While the crews could still set and access, set charges and service many kilometres of wires without breaking through the ice with their trucks and off road machines before the ground thawed completely and the job became impossible in the muskeg.
> 
> Without the quick recovery of the majority of Indigenous workers and the lead engineer the multi million dollar show would have to been postponed for another year, it was that bad. The show was almost shut down because of the "horrible cold" as it was called. I was afraid for a while that some workers might contract bacterial pneumonia if it kept up so I called the ERPS in Fort Nelson for advice, of which they had none other than follow the standard evacuation protocols that I was already doing. I didn't have to send anyone off the show but I had to recommend it to a few who were so sick that they could barely speak. My case of this particular "chest cold" made me so horse I had a hard time doing the personnel checks by radio without coughing my brains out. I was first on and last off so I did the head counts and kept track of the movements of all the workers over a 35 sq kilometre area. The show was a max head count over area for single bandaid job so the pay was fantastic.
> 
> That is the full story of what I witnessed occur.
> 
> We also ignore fabulous west coast Indigenous food sources in our blind ignorance and ecological stupidity. The best example of which is the food stuff that Lewis and Clarke had to eat to survive once they reached the lower Columbia river. Namely wapatoo and other West Coast vegetative plants like Camus bulbs, both of which are a fantastic and highly productive source of complex starches and can very easily be grown in most regions a all along the lower BC coast and down all the way to northern California. Clarke complained bitterly and rather humorously of his and the peoples flatulence from eating camus and wapatoo, which is understandable, The Camus bulbs are almost as packed with vegetative proteins as beans. So if you don't drink plenty of water when you eat them then the tooting will be machine gun in nature.
> 
> The indigenous peoples of BC did not starve that is for sure: That is until we completely screwed up a very productive *cultivated* ecology that they had developed over thousands of years. Now we have almost wiped out the once super abundant native fish in our blind greed and ecological stupidity.
> 
> The Indigenous Peoples health was far better than ours and their life spans were even considerably longer, that is until our diseases, diet, alcohol and drugs almost wiped them out in the 1860's to the 1880's. Sure, most of them hate our guts but they sure as hell have very good reasons.
> 
> My experience being their guest has been nothing but a wonderful learning experience and a cultural awakening. Here is a sad and very ironic part of our sad history in dealing with Indigenous people on the West Coast. A sailor or perhaps more than one with the crew of Captain Cook raped some of the women of Nootka Sound. So their very first experience with the "English white men" was to discover that not only were they afraid of cleaning themselves by bathing before intercourse they also all stank to high heaven and thought nothing of disgracing their very clean and sanitary hosts by taking local women for non consensual conjugal purposes without even asking tribal consent: but far worse they were also two faced lying ass-holes as well as rapists.
> Cook had strongly prohibited this and did desperately tried to stop this sort of lawless behaviour from happening. But by this time he was losing control of some of the crew and could not bring the offending sailor to justice without the potential of a mutiny and his losing command. Captain Cook was a great man but he was brought down as a commander by some well off adventuring English ass-holes that he mistakenly allowed to take too much control of his final voyage looking for the North West passage in an attempt to beat the Spanish to new lands and a new faster trade route for Britannia.
> 
> What really occurred at first meeting was a huge cultural and social faux pas to say the very least. The leaders were considering burning his ship at night and slaughtering all their guests. But they kept it to themselves in fear of another ship of white savages coming with even more guns. By this time they knew all about firearms from the Spanish who thought nothing of just blasting away at west coast "Indians". These are the lessons that are not forgotten by the all Indigenous peoples of BC to this very day.
> Cook was just lucky his crew didn't try that same shit on Haida Gwaii which at that time had the a huge contingent of highly trained warriors with the boating and navigational skills to kick some serious English ass, regardless of having to go up against a few jerks with muskets and highly inaccurate cannon on a very slow huge boat! The Haida were also very familiar with what the savage white men were capable of by that time in history. The Haida would have instantly turned on their guests and burned the ships and slaughtered the lot for that kind of behaviour. Cook would not have been killed where it happened, it would have happened in what is now Canada and most likely no one would have survived to tell the tale of what happened. The Hawaiian peoples let the jerks off very lightly indeed by not storming the ship and setting it aflame a huge error in judgement.
> 
> I fully respect the cultural knowledge and the real history of what happened to the Indigenous peoples here in North America. Some of their very best leaders who I have had the privilege to meet and exchange thoughts with have taught me a great deal over my short life time of a mere 67 years.
> 
> Not every plant and fungus that they have learned to use over thousands of years of experience has been investigated for chemical properties, not by a long shot. There is likely as many undiscovered properties of native plants with complex chemical compounds that could become useful for food and medicine here in Western North America, as there is in what is left of the Amazon rain forest. Unfortunately and to our shame and discredit as a people, we are just too stupid, ignorant and prejudiced to open our eyes and minds to learn about what is all around us.
> 
> Enough of a rant. On this topic I will not post any more, because I hope to be starting a topic related .org web site fairly soon.
> I am sorry for this long and detailed post on the history of the West Coast of Canada,
> Many will just TL/DR and click or tap away from what I have written. These are my opinions based upon my life experience and as such all are entitled to either agree or disagree with what I write. What ever floats your boat. Either way I am not at all offended by criticism of what I write, I welcome it as long it is civilised discourse that does not threaten anyone, it is fine beside me at my fire.
> 
> Man I have to get out and go camping and fishing sometime this year instead of just typing and studying and playing guitar for hours and hours! This COVID ENDLESS ROUNDS OF PREVENTION MEASURES REALLY REAALLLY SUCKS*#*(
> 
> The only GOOD NEWS is that I should be actually recording again and very soon when my brother finally finishes french polishing the guitars this week! The Torres style built one we have already strung and tested and it is going to be a really great classical guitar from first impressions. Low tension D'Addarios for the first stringing and it sounds great for a brand new instrument with both depth and bright sound and balance in the mid range. This is not an actual recording of the instrument it is just a little longer video of the build process with Segovia playing the music not me yet.


If you smoked it around Ft. Nelson it was possibly this.








I know the various Shuswap and Sylix tribes did. I've smoked it myself from time to time. Can't say the Nootka did but the stuff I smoked with them was more for the "spritual" side of things. Another group of plants smoked were loosely called Kinnikinnick.....this mixture varied as to where you are.


----------



## laristotle

Human poop-and-scoop signs surface at Trinity Bellwoods










_After massive crowds converged at Trinity Bellwoods Park two weeks ago and park bathrooms remained locked, neighbours in the area complained that people were urinating and in some cases, defecating on their properties.

There is also a disclaimer at the bottom of the sign: “*Please don’t actually s— in the park. Stay home.” There is also a little roll of toilet paper attached, to drive the point home.

“It was really bad, because the city decided to open up all of the parks and not open up all of the bathrooms,” said one neighbour in a clip that was uploaded by 6IXCanadaTV.

“Ten thousand people, no bathrooms, you do the math. All of us live on this street and what happened? Everyone was coming to pee on this side. Imagine, urinating on the side of your house, on the walls. My 10-year-old saw three ladies and two men urinating on the wall … How is it that people think it’s OK? This isn’t Woodstock.”_


----------



## Eric Reesor

colchar said:


> Most of this is a complete load of shite, but it certainly gave me a good laugh this morning.


I take it you have never actually conversed or known any of the remaining leaders of the first Nations. Or read and studied the incredible plant ecology and the history of Indigenous uses of the flora of the West Coast at all. ISBN 1-5505-042-0 or the later revised releases is a small start.
Like I said laugh away at your own peril. We have already rewritten most of the real history of our prejudice and abuse of Indigenous peoples in our classrooms. Social, political and racism caused abuse of the first Nations people of Canada was a secret national past time and an f'in disgrace that I have fought proudly against most of my life. I trust them certainly more than most aggressively misguided opportunistic ass-hole whites who belittle their astounding knowledge of the ecology of Canada. But like I said enough on this topic.
I keenly remember our shameful and disgusting bar talk southern Canadian and American hunter's meme about a native girl and shooting a moose. Our shared prejudice towards Canada's Indigenous people is absolutely a national disgrace. They have every right to try to stop Covid-19 at their borders as we struggle to contain it, they actually by and large respect their elders. END OF STORY


----------



## colchar

Eric Reesor said:


> I take it you have never actually conversed or known any of the remaining leaders of the first Nations. Or read and studied the incredible plant ecology and the history of Indigenous uses of the flora of the West Coast at all.


That wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to your atrocious grasp of history.




> ISBN 1-5505-042-0


Too lazy to post a link? I'm not looking up ISBNs.




> We have already rewritten most of the real history of our prejudice and abuse of Indigenous peoples in our classrooms.


Oh really? Please explain that. As a history prof, I clearly know nothing about the teaching of our history. Please enlighten me oh wise one.






> Social, political and racism caused abuse of the first Nations people of Canada


Thanks for the newsflash. I learned that in grade eight, which was decades ago, but thanks for letting me know about it.





> was a secret national past time


It was hardly a secret.




> But like I said enough on this topic.


I'm still waiting for you to begin, or at least to begin being right.




> I keenly remember our shameful and disgusting bar talk southern Canadian and American hunter's meme about a native girl and shooting a moose.


Yeah, because only ****** makes racial jokes or comments. No other races ever do, and natives certainly don't eh?





> Our shared prejudice towards Canada's Indigenous people is absolutely a national disgrace.


Yes, some of it is.





> They have every right to try to stop Covid-19 at their borders


At their borders? If they are nations maybe it is high time they started financing their own countries.





> END OF STORY


Promise?


----------



## Milkman

Eric Reesor said:


> They have every right to try to stop Covid-19 at their borders as we struggle to contain it, they actually by and large respect their elders. END OF STORY


The only problem I have with them closing the Rez is that they're still allowed to come and go. Should we also close OUR borders? If we can't enter the Rez, why should they be able to freely come and go out in the rest of society?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Milkman said:


> The only problem I have with them closing the Rez is that they're still allowed to come and go. Should we also close OUR borders? If we can't enter the Rez, why should they be able to freely come and go out in the rest of society?


Because the minute anyone says anything about it they are immediately labeled a racist. The same as just about any other issue


----------



## Milkman

GuitarsCanada said:


> Because the minute anyone says anything about it they are immediately labeled a racist. The same as just about any other issue


Yeah I guess. I have a card so I'm not sure if they'd let me pass but I'm not into taking that chance.

But it's bullshit that the "border" closes in one direction IMO.


----------



## laristotle

Monkeys escape lab with COVID-19 samples in ‘Planet of the Apes’ raid

_“Monkeys grabbed and fled with the blood samples of four COVID-19 patients who are undergoing treatment,” Dr. S. K. Garg, a top official at the college, told Reuters. He added that it’s unclear whether the tubes of blood had been spilled.

Garg also urged calm amid fears that the monkeys might spread the coronavirus around Meerut.

“No evidence has been found that monkeys can contract the infection,” he said.

The monkeys attacked a lab technician and grabbed the samples, the Times of India reports. One of the monkeys was seen eating a surgical glove, according to NDTV._


----------



## bolero

WTF that is actually real! I thought it was a joke post

damn...imagine if the monkey population caught & spread it


----------



## Jim DaddyO

bolero said:


> .imagine if the monkey population caught & spread it


Parliament would never reconvene if that happened.


----------



## keto

Jim DaddyO said:


> Parlament would never reconvene if that happened.


Immediate lead contender for Post Of The Year.

Sharp, punchy, clear and to the point. Typo forgiven lol.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

keto said:


> Immediate lead contender for Post Of The Year.
> 
> Sharp, punchy, clear and to the point. Typo forgiven lol.



Thanks, fixed the typo. My fingers don't work as fast as the words come to me....lol.


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> The only problem I have with them closing the Rez is that they're still allowed to come and go. Should we also close OUR borders? If we can't enter the Rez, why should they be able to freely come and go out in the rest of society?


At least they're not armed, yet, in this instance as far as I know. Not too sure if any of the Reservations in BC and AB. are closed because of Covid 19.


----------



## colchar

So it turns out that the WHO knew China was being untruthful even as its leader praised them and kissed their ass:

China delayed releasing coronavirus info, frustrating WHO


----------



## colchar

It seems this might not be just a respiratory illness after all:

COVID-19 both respiratory and a blood infection?


----------



## zdogma

colchar said:


> It seems this might not be just a respiratory illness after all:
> 
> COVID-19 both respiratory and a blood infection?


Yes this has been known for some time. There are multiple clinical trials ongoing to see if the clotting and blood vessel complications can be controlled.


----------



## colchar

zdogma said:


> Yes this has been known for some time. There are multiple clinical trials ongoing to see if the clotting and blood vessel complications can be controlled.



But they thought those were side effects, not characteristics of the virus.


----------



## Doug Gifford

colchar said:


> So it turns out that the WHO knew China was being untruthful even as its leader praised them and kissed their ass:
> 
> China delayed releasing coronavirus info, frustrating WHO


That's because they needed China to operate at all. It's called diplomacy.


----------



## Wardo

China needs to congratulated on having created this bio weapon.


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> So it turns out that the WHO knew China was being untruthful even as its leader praised them and kissed their ass:
> 
> China delayed releasing coronavirus info, frustrating WHO


When you're a virologist time is of the essence. When you're a politician/bureaucrat time doesn't matter nearly as much.


----------



## Moosehead

colchar said:


> It seems this might not be just a respiratory illness after all:
> 
> COVID-19 both respiratory and a blood infection?


Also the strange inflammatory condition happening in kids; maybe thats the blood infection side affecting them. First I've heard of the blood infection but im not following it too consistently. 

I just started working out again. Big reno and I couldnt turn it down. Lotsa folks out at the home improvement stores without masks. Employees that have been working throughout this pandemic are also mostly not wearing masks. Surprising for me. 

Something I read (which may not be entirely right) about the lab the virus possibly/probably came from was that the virus came from a bat species that was about 1000 km from wuhan. Probably would have never been contracted by humans except that these scientists/virologists went to their cliffside to collect bats to study different coronaviruses. Lax lab polocies/procedures and someone gets infected and leaves the lab. Maybe China was trying to cover this up if it is in fact true.


----------



## colchar

Moosehead said:


> Also the strange inflammatory condition happening in kids; maybe thats the blood infection side affecting them. First I've heard of the blood infection but im not following it too consistently.
> 
> I just started working out again. Big reno and I couldnt turn it down. Lotsa folks out at the home improvement stores without masks. Employees that have been working throughout this pandemic are also mostly not wearing masks. Surprising for me.
> 
> Something I read (which may not be entirely right) about the lab the virus possibly/probably came from was that the virus came from a bat species that was about 1000 km from wuhan. Probably would have never been contracted by humans except that these scientists/virologists went to their cliffside to collect bats to study different coronaviruses. Lax lab polocies/procedures and someone gets infected and leaves the lab. Maybe China was trying to cover this up if it is in fact true.



Apparently there is some ugly ass armadillo type thing that it transferred to first, and from that to humans. Without that middle stage, we wouldn't have caught it.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> Apparently there is some ugly ass armadillo type thing that it transferred to first, and from that to humans. Without that middle stage, we wouldn't have caught it.


Maybe. Bats, Pangolins and maybe something else.
Pangolins may have incubated the novel coronavirus, gene study shows


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> It seems this might not be just a respiratory illness after all:
> 
> COVID-19 both respiratory and a blood infection?


Goes into the lungs and gets into the blood stream.....sounds about right.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

The last 4 posts seems to have a logical line of thought that go together. I have read similar things when you put them all together.


----------



## colchar

Electraglide said:


> Maybe. Bats, Pangolins and maybe something else.
> Pangolins may have incubated the novel coronavirus, gene study shows



Yeah, those things. Ugly motherfuckers.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> Yeah, those things. Ugly motherfuckers.


Ugly compared to what?


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> Yeah, those things. Ugly motherfuckers.


Ugly compared to what?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

1.2% increase in Ontario cases.

Ontario government makes Jane Philpott an advisor. (Yes, that Jane Philpott that resigned from federal cabinet)

IMHO, trying to open things up too soon after not having closed down effectively enough, or long enough.


----------



## JBFairthorne

I disagree. Looking at recent Ontario bar graphs, there are about 40% fewer new daily cases than there were at it’s peak. That’s significantly better than flattening the curve. It may not be time to open everything up with no restrictions but things need to open. People need to get back to work. People need to be able to go outside and resume some semblance of normal life. They need to see progress.

There’s a VERY delicate balance between restriction of rights/activities in the name of public health and threatening a person’s financial health...which in turn can affect their physical health.

A society living under lockdown conditions, fearing for their health while also fearing for their financial well-being can quickly turn from a few dummies congregating in large groups at a park into complete anarchy, martial law, overthrown governments. All it takes is fear, a feeling that there’s no end in sight and then a spark to ignite things.

Slowly returning things to normal and providing some hope at the expense of not slowing the spread as much as you might be able to under lockdown is a smart move if it prevents people from doing drastic things.


----------



## Jim Wellington

Graph #2 at this link Canada Coronavirus: 93,700 Cases and 7,635 Deaths - Worldometer lets hope the trend continues.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> 1.2% increase in Ontario cases.
> 
> Ontario government makes Jane Philpott an advisor. (Yes, that Jane Philpott that resigned from federal cabinet)
> 
> IMHO, trying to open things up too soon after not having closed down effectively enough, or long enough.


Niagara just took a big hit with over 60 migrant farm workers testing positive yesterday. 0 and 1 a day for the week before and today though leaves me encouraged.


----------



## Milkman

Well, our city seemed to be doing well, until recently....

Gee, thanks.

Mayor angry he wasn't consulted about migrant workers sent to isolate in city hotels


----------



## colchar

Electraglide said:


> Ugly compared to what?



Anything.


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> Well, our city seemed to be doing well, until recently....
> 
> Gee, thanks.
> 
> Mayor angry he wasn't consulted about migrant workers sent to isolate in city hotels


When they first announced that they were going to allow 21,000 migrant farm workers into the country I had this bad feeling about it..............................

From what I've read about the 60 here, one migrant worker caught the virus while _off the farm_ and brought it back to the other 60. I'm thinking, "Where'd he go? Who'd he hookup with? How'd THEY get the virus?" It just doesn't pass a smell test.


----------



## Eric Reesor

Seems that these critters are delicious if stir fried and much like other speciality bush meats that are coveted by people with lots of money and a taste for the exotic are harvested and traded both legally and illegally. 

So if it does turn out that Covid-19 indeed has a transgenic RNA mutation that allows it to infect us via the human food chain through pangolins, the lesson that should be learned here is: we screw up and abuse the way our natural environment works by eating every thing in sight at our own collective peril. 
Possums are just as tasty and Marmots are reported to taste like a cross between chicken and pig with a little rabbit overtones. Eastern Gray and Black Squirrels are really tasty, they figured as a delicacy on my table a many times when I was impoverished living in Ontario and ran trap lines many years ago. Even a full bag of spruce grouse can be really tasty if you are hungry enough and you know how to cook them. I have no culinary experience with either of the aforementioned creatures or pangolins but huge eastern squirrels, rabbits and grouse are certainly on my list if I every renew my license. 

Who knows what would happen if we here in north America started to create fresh bush meat industries. The only answer is science and careful study of what abusing the natural resources of the planet is really capable of doing. It seems that the ecosystems of this planet are very capable of defending against arrogant and ecologically ignorant humans. 

Nature has defence mechanisms and we are a new species that can be wiped out or at least brought down a notch if we in ignorance and arrogance continue along our current trajectory destroying the planet which brought us forth in the first place. We are not indispensable as a species to this planet we can very easily be replaced if we step too far out of line. Our short lives matter little if we learn nothing from what the planet freely teaches us.








(political comments about the asshole His Majesty DONALD and his idiotic and deliberate and divisive defamation and agitation of Chinese and Black Americans self edited out of this post}


----------



## Jim DaddyO

allthumbs56 said:


> From what I've read about the 60 here, one migrant worker caught the virus while _off the farm_ and brought it back to the other 60. I'm thinking, "Where'd he go? Who'd he hookup with? How'd THEY get the virus?" It just doesn't pass a smell test.


Good catch! I was under the impression that they were under a 14 day manditory quarantine.

One article was of a farmer who spent $700k (?) or so to do this. The outbreak at his farm was mostly in people without symptoms. This asymptomatic issue is probably one of the most dangerous aspects of this virus.


----------



## Distortion

Jim DaddyO said:


> Good catch! I was under the impression that they were under a 14 day manditory quarantine.
> 
> One article was of a farmer who spent $700k (?) or so to do this. The outbreak at his farm was mostly in people without symptoms. This asymptomatic issue is probably one of the most dangerous aspects of this virus.


I believe about 5 are in hospital. Rest are isolated in a Brantford motel.Locals are working the farm for $25 a hour.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> Good catch! I was under the impression that they were under a 14 day manditory quarantine.


From what I've read they did do the 14 day quarantine on arrival and then one of them went out into the world somewhere and mingled somehow. They're from Mexico. They don't speak English. They're here specifically to work. Shouldn't they all (especially under the circumstances) have stayed on the farm? I have trouble making sense of it.


----------



## Milkman

Just a thought in reference to the "recovery" from Covid-19. I think many of us are in denial in terms of expecting things to return to "normal".
It may be time to face the possibility (probability?) that the new normal may mean some industries do NOT recover, at least to the level of pre-covid revenues.
People will change their habits and behaviours as a result of this disaster and that will almost certainly mean less travel and less of all the associated business that comes with it.
I'm not making predictions or doomsday prophesies here, but the travel and entertainment industries will never be the same after this. I wish those working in these fields the best but there will be some blood on the floor.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Live music is on the ropes. Especially vocal music like choirs.

Choirs may have to remain silent long after society reopens


----------



## High/Deaf

They better not screw with my new banjo and accordion orchestra. It's just getting going and with a complete absence of other bands/music, we're getting some real interest from guys like Bruce Allen.


----------



## Wardo

Distortion said:


> .. Locals are working the farm for $25 a hour.


Not bad money.


----------



## Milkman

Wardo said:


> Not bad money.



Except it's failing. The "locals" either couldn't or wouldn't do what was needed. They've abandoned the asparagus crop now.


----------



## Milkman

duplicate


----------



## Electraglide

High/Deaf said:


> They better not screw with my new banjo and accordion orchestra. It's just getting going and with a complete absence of other bands/music, we're getting some real interest from guys like Bruce Allen.


Maybe these guys can help you.




and when you really spark Bruce's interest you might do a 2020 version of "Tears are not enough".


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> Except it's failing. The "locals" either couldn't or wouldn't do what was needed. They've abandoned the asparagus crop now.


Once they found out how hard the work is/was I'd say wouldn't. You can learn how to do it even tho you won't be as good as someone who's been doing it for years. This is one way of doing it.


----------



## Distortion

Electraglide said:


> Once they found out how hard the work is/was I'd say wouldn't. You can learn how to do it even tho you won't be as good as someone who's been doing it for years. This is one way of doing it.


yep and the farmer like most Canadians could not bend over to cut or pick the crop.


----------



## Electraglide

Distortion said:


> yep and the farmer like most Canadians could not bend over to cut or pick the crop.


The farmer probably can and does but I would take it that the field is a bit bigger than your own little 8'x10' garden and needs more than one person to get the crop in. Probably was the farmer and his family who showed the "locals" how to do it and were out in the fields with them. 




This is one of the ways it's done....day by day until the season is over......sun up to sun down. I did the walking the fields, hand picking once.....no way I should do it now but if I had to I probably would.


----------



## Milkman

https://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/n...vest/wcm/885d9780-5be8-414c-8dcb-983d7a8e9b7f


----------



## Distortion

Electraglide said:


> The farmer probably can and does but I would take it that the field is a bit bigger than your own little 8'x10' garden and needs more than one person to get the crop in. Probably was the farmer and his family who showed the "locals" how to do it and were out in the fields with them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is one of the ways it's done....day by day until the season is over......sun up to sun down. I did the walking the fields, hand picking once.....no way I should do it now but if I had to I probably would.


smoke another one that I paid for.


----------



## Fred Gifford

is it just me or is this my imagination ? I'm starting to see a pattern, the Gov't pays a lot of people to stay home and sleep all day and for entertainment ? people go out all night and vandalize and loot but they call it "protesting?" seem's these protests never happened when people had to be on the job at 8 am every morning ? coincidence ? nah, must be my imagination


----------



## Doug Gifford

Fred Gifford said:


> is it just me or is this my imagination ? I'm starting to see a pattern, the Gov't pays a lot of people to stay home and sleep all day and for entertainment ? people go out all night and vandalize and loot but they call it "protesting?" seem's these protests never happened when people had to be on the job at 8 am every morning ? coincidence ? nah, must be my imagination


correlation does not imply causation


----------



## keto

Doug Gifford said:


> correlation does not imply causation


But, in this case, the connection certainly, and logically at least, is being made in lotsa sources.


----------



## colchar

Fred Gifford said:


> is it just me or is this my imagination ? I'm starting to see a pattern, the Gov't pays a lot of people to stay home and sleep all day and for entertainment ? people go out all night and vandalize and loot but they call it "protesting?" seem's these protests never happened when people had to be on the job at 8 am every morning ? coincidence ? nah, must be my imagination



So you're saying people wouldn't have protested someone being murdered by a cop if they had to work the next day?


----------



## Wardo

Asparagus Piss would be a good name for a band.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Wardo said:


> Asparagus Piss would be a good name for a band.



I think that stinks.............lol.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Wardo said:


> Asparagus Piss would be a good name for a band.


But only some of us would understand.


----------



## Doug Gifford

doop


----------



## colchar

Former MI6 head claims COVID-19 was made in a Chinese lab
_

A former head of the British intelligence agency MI6 has said that he believes the COVID-19 virus was created in a lab and spread accidentally. Speaking to The Telegraph's Planet Normal podcast, Sir Richard Dearlove cited recent research which claimed to have found key evidence that the virus had been manipulated to bind to humans._


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> Former MI6 head claims COVID-19 was made in a Chinese lab
> _
> 
> A former head of the British intelligence agency MI6 has said that he believes the COVID-19 virus was created in a lab and spread accidentally. Speaking to The Telegraph's Planet Normal podcast, Sir Richard Dearlove cited recent research which claimed to have found key evidence that the virus had been manipulated to bind to humans._



That is quite the interesting read. Not sure I buy it though but I gotta agree with the Aussies that we do need a full investigation on this.


----------



## Milkman

With recovery of last case, New Zealand has eradicated the novel coronavirus | CBC News

Kiwis rock!


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> With recovery of last case, New Zealand has eradicated the novel coronavirus | CBC News
> 
> Kiwis rock!


And their prime minister is kinda hot too


----------



## keto

allthumbs56 said:


> And their prime minister is kinda hot too


SOOO CLOSE I forgot where I was for a minute.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Hamilton, Halton, Niagara not included in Ontario Stage Two reopening Friday - CHCH


----------



## Electraglide

allthumbs56 said:


> And their prime minister is kinda hot too


I think the president of Croatia isn't too shabby either.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Electraglide said:


> I think the president of Croatia isn't too shabby either.


----------



## vadsy

Electraglide said:


> I think the president of Croatia isn't too shabby either.


I'm pretty sure those are two different women


----------



## Electraglide

GuitarsCanada said:


> View attachment 316062


You saying Justin is hot?


----------



## Milkman

GuitarsCanada said:


> Hamilton, Halton, Niagara not included in Ontario Stage Two reopening Friday - CHCH


Brant county is going to phase 2 on Friday. It's possible we may be asked to resume working in our office but that's TBD. Our company seems to be taking a very cautious approach so they may give us another week at home.

One thing I'm learning, is that working from home is very much a desirable condition for me. I could keep doing this until retirement.


----------



## Wardo

I like the dynamic of being in a busy office but maybe that’s because no one is telling me what to do. Working from home not so much unless I’m drafting a lengthy document which is easier to do at home because no interruptions.


----------



## Milkman

Wardo said:


> I like the dynamic of being in a busy office but maybe that’s because no one is telling me what to do. Working from home not so much unless I’m drafting a lengthy document which is easier to do at home because no interruptions.



I have to do a lot of math and I find a busy office to be distracting. That's just my weakness I suppose but I often have to hide in a conference room or other secluded area when I need to focus on complicated or troublesome tasks.

All I need to do here, is close my office door. I'm getting used to this.


----------



## allthumbs56

Niagara is on hold. We were 0,1,0,0,0,1 ........ and then the one greenhouse scored 64 migrant farm workers in one go and it's lights out.


----------



## boyscout

GuitarsCanada said:


> View attachment 316062


He's so statesmanlike in that pose. Only uses it with women though; never seen him greet a man like that. How come?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Milkman said:


> Brant county is going to phase 2 on Friday. It's possible we may be asked to resume working in our office but that's TBD. Our company seems to be taking a very cautious approach so they may give us another week at home.
> 
> One thing I'm learning, is that working from home is very much a desirable condition for me. I could keep doing this until retirement.


I really need a haircut. I look like a freak. On the other hand, I am officially calling it quits on our shop. Way too far behind now to ever catch up. We will see how this plays out with the landlord. The ball is in their court. We would be lucky to get the go ahead sometime in July at this point and by then it's all over.


----------



## High/Deaf

allthumbs56 said:


> Niagara is on hold. We were 0,1,0,0,0,1 ........ and then the one greenhouse scored 64 migrant farm workers in one go and it's lights out.


Just as well. Your guys were suspiciously close to North Korea's numbers. Not good!


----------



## allthumbs56

boyscout said:


> He's so statesmanlike in that pose. Only uses it with women though; never seen him greet a man like that. How come?


How would you feel if he looked at you like that? I know I'd be all


----------



## Milkman

GuitarsCanada said:


> I really need a haircut. I look like a freak. On the other hand, I am officially calling it quits on our shop. Way too far behind now to ever catch up. We will see how this plays out with the landlord. The ball is in their court. We would be lucky to get the go ahead sometime in July at this point and by then it's all over.



Sorry man,

That's rough.


----------



## boyscout

...

Didn't notice that this was the "non-political" section.


----------



## boyscout

GuitarsCanada said:


> I really need a haircut. I look like a freak. On the other hand, I am officially calling it quits on our shop. Way too far behind now to ever catch up. We will see how this plays out with the landlord. The ball is in their court. We would be lucky to get the go ahead sometime in July at this point and by then it's all over.


Sorry Scott, hope that something arises from the ashes. In mayhem, sometimes there's opportunity.


----------



## colchar

boyscout said:


> He's so statesmanlike in that pose. Only uses it with women though; never seen him greet a man like that.



So you've never seen him look at Gerald then?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

boyscout said:


> Sorry Scott, hope that something arises from the ashes. In mayhem, sometimes there's opportunity.


Well the wife did get that job at the hospital and we are hoping that she can get on either part time or fulltime down the road. Right now she is temporary but getting a lot of hours. If she can land that, we will be fine. It's good pay. We are debt free and that's exactly the way we want to stay. I am not borrowing money to keep the shop alive, not going to happen.


----------



## butterknucket

I need a haircut, and I wouldn't be surprised if the place I go to doesn't reopen.


----------



## vadsy

Haircuts. I had to wear a mask and so did the stylist but with a few less things on the counter and hand sanitizer at the door it was business as usual and bras were optional. I had like 8-10 inches taken off. Feels good


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Milkman said:


> Sorry man,
> 
> That's rough.


We are doing our best not to allow it to ruin our lives. Just have to look at it with reason and thought. We had no part in it, we paid our rent on time and in full for over 12 years. That is simply not possible right now so not much else we can do. It will all depend on what the landlord decides to do. Obviously we won't escape scott free. We have about 80k in equipment over there.


----------



## Guitar101

GuitarsCanada said:


> We are doing our best not to allow it to ruin our lives. Just have to look at it with reason and thought. We had no part in it, we paid our rent on time and in full for over 12 years. That is simply not possible right now so not much else we can do. It will all depend on what the landlord decides to do. Obviously we won't escape scott free. We have about 80k in equipment over there.


Are you sure that your past customers are not just waiting for you to re-open? I know I'm waiting to get my haircut. It's probably going to be quite a wait to get one though.


----------



## Electraglide

At last.
Alberta to reopen theatres, casinos, churches on Friday, one week ahead of schedule
Now for a concert or two.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Distortion

they mayors of Haldimand and Norfolk were protesting not being able to go to stage 2 of opening , so they got a hair cut on the news in protest. The same two that forbid people from doing day trips to their county or owners to go to their cottages.


----------



## keto

Distortion said:


> they mayors of Haldimand and Norfolk were protesting not being able to go to stage 2 of opening , so they got a hair cut on the news in protest. The same two that forbid people from doing day trips to their county or owners to go to their cottages.


I hope it was pointed out to them loudly, clearly, and in no uncertain terms.


----------



## Wardo

Some oval track in nort calina started up racing again complete with spectators and said that the crowd thing was ok because it’s a peaceful protest.


----------



## Milkman

Distortion said:


> they mayors of Haldimand and Norfolk were protesting not being able to go to stage 2 of opening , so they got a hair cut on the news in protest. The same two that forbid people from doing day trips to their county or owners to go to their cottages.



Very mature. Inspiring leadership et cetera.

Was that political?


----------



## Distortion

Milkman said:


> Very mature. Inspiring leadership et cetera.
> 
> Was that political?


News


----------



## keto

Busting back out in the southern USA apparently. Mentioned are AZ, UT, FL, NM, AR.
Arizona calls for emergency plan as COVID-19 spikes after reopening


----------



## vadsy

keto said:


> Busting back out in the southern USA apparently. Mentioned are AZ, UT, FL, NM, AR.
> Arizona calls for emergency plan as COVID-19 spikes after reopening


crazy,. not unexpected IMO. Just yesterday reading Albertas plan made me think we were possibly going to see something similar. Still, I'm glad we're moving forward to some degree


----------



## GuitarsCanada

The highest concern still remains and that's the capacity of hospitals to handle cases. Most of the population could most likely deal with this virus and move on. But there are those that will require hospital care and there will be those that don't make it. Managing those cases in the health care system was and will continue to be the biggest challenge we face moving forward. If the hospitals get overloaded it's a snowball effect that shakes the whole system that includes those that need care/surgery and cannot afford to wait.


----------



## Milkman

GuitarsCanada said:


> The highest concern still remains and that's the capacity of hospitals to handle cases. Most of the population could most likely deal with this virus and move on. But there are those that will require hospital care and there will be those that don't make it. Managing those cases in the health care system was and will continue to be the biggest challenge we face moving forward. If the hospitals get overloaded it's a snowball effect that shakes the whole system that includes those that need care/surgery and cannot afford to wait.


I understand the math and yes, for society as a whole that IS the prime consideration. For me and others who happen to be in a high risk category, it's a more immediate and selfish concern.

I'm willing to be extra careful to try and avoid this virus until such time as we have better medical treatment available to fight it. For me it's all about the reality that this shit could kill me.


----------



## Milkman

Distortion said:


> News



Just for clarity, I meant my reply, not your post.


----------



## colchar

Distortion said:


> they mayors of Haldimand and Norfolk were protesting not being able to go to stage 2 of opening , so they got a hair cut on the news in protest. The same two that forbid people from doing day trips to their county or owners to go to their cottages.



Yeah those two are special.


----------



## allthumbs56

Distortion said:


> *they mayors of Haldimand and Norfolk were protesting*


Apparently Protesting is a valid reason for politicians to ignore Social Distancing. I forget who it was that pioneered that example


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> Apparently Protesting is a valid reason for politicians to ignore Social Distancing. I forget who it was that pioneered that example



He just wanted to be allowed out to play with the cool kids.


----------



## Wardo

Usually just crapped out Civics and Corollas but now we got BMWs, Audis and a Dodge Dodge charger all delivering food in front of my building. No Ferraris yet but if any show up I’ll get a pic.


----------



## Electraglide

I'll see how busy the downtown casinos are on Friday......maybe a bar or two. Good thing my Dr's appointments are in the morning.


----------



## Milkman

Drove over to the building supply place last night to pick up some materials for a project.

We have dumb asses waving signs around here too.


----------



## laristotle

Protesting Mr Lube? Because the grease is black?


----------



## Milkman

laristotle said:


> Protesting Mr Lube? Because the grease is black?



LOL, I didn't ask. I was just watching carefully to make sure they didn't try something stupid like blocking access to and from the parking lot.

There's also a Tims in the lot. Maybe they were protesting weak coffee.


----------



## JBFairthorne

And what would you have done about it if they did choose to block access?


----------



## vadsy

Were they Covid flags or is someone in the wrong thread again?


----------



## Electraglide

JBFairthorne said:


> And what would you have done about it if they did choose to block access?


Maybe get them singing this.


----------



## Guitar101

Milkman said:


> LOL, I didn't ask. I was just watching carefully to make sure they didn't try something stupid like blocking access to and from the parking lot.
> 
> There's also a Tims in the lot. Maybe they were protesting weak coffee.


Hey Milky. Why didn't you find out what they were protesting about? You never know, you may have agreed with them, picked up a sign and joined the protest. Protests in days gone by might be the reason you have the lifestyle you enjoy today.


----------



## Milkman

Guitar101 said:


> Hey Milky. Why didn't you find out what they were protesting about? You never know, you may have agreed with them, picked up a sign and joined the protest. Protests in days gone by might be the reason you have the lifestyle you enjoy today.



No, I have never been one to join a crowd. It's not my way to make change and I think it's pretty ineffective.

I was just glad they didn't do anything stupid and block traffic.


----------



## Milkman

JBFairthorne said:


> And what would you have done about it if they did choose to block access?



I suppose there's not much I can do when people break the law in front of cops and they do nothing about it. Maybe we had better get used to anarchy if movements to neuter our police forces continue to gain momentum.

At least my car is red.

(hmmm, wonder if I'll be fired for that one, LOL)


----------



## High/Deaf

Guitar101 said:


> Hey Milky. Why didn't you find out what they were protesting about? You never know, you may have agreed with them, picked up a sign and joined the protest. Protests in days gone by might be the reason you have the lifestyle you enjoy today.


Protests? Sure.

But don't forget war, colonization and the Industrial Revolution (technology). All those things brought us the lifestyle we have now. What's everyone protesting about again, I can't keep track?


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> I suppose there's not much I can do when people break the law in front of cops and they do nothing about it. Maybe we had better get used to anarchy if movements to neuter our police forces continue to gain momentum.
> 
> At least my car is red.
> 
> (hmmm, wonder if I'll be fired for that one, LOL)


You were driving your baby? No wonder you wanted to stay at a safe distance


----------



## vadsy

allthumbs56 said:


> You were driving your baby? No wonder you wanted to stay at a safe distance


pics or it didn't happen


----------



## Jim Wellington

Fat ladies in yoga pants with cardboard signs and Karen haircuts...just say no.


----------



## vadsy

Jim Wellington said:


> Fat ladies in yoga pants with cardboard signs and Karen haircuts...just say no.



lol, I meant the car


----------



## Wardo

laristotle said:


> Protesting Mr Lube? Because the grease is black?


and white lithium grease, that stuff is gonna have to go too


----------



## Distortion

Seen it on the news . It was a gbtq etc. organized protest on the way natives are treated by police in the area.


----------



## allthumbs56

Anybody understand these new "Social Bubbles"?

There needs to be an app or a spreadsheet to manage them.


----------



## colchar

Distortion said:


> Seen it on the news . It was a gbtq etc. organized protest on the way natives are treated by police in the area.



When will they protest the way that non-natives are treated by the rez cops?


----------



## Doug Gifford

allthumbs56 said:


> Anybody understand these new "Social Bubbles"?
> 
> There needs to be an app or a spreadsheet to manage them.


We're not very sociable and don't have immediate family nearby. I could see us passing up on the bubble phase.


----------



## Electraglide

allthumbs56 said:


> Anybody understand these new "Social Bubbles"?
> 
> There needs to be an app or a spreadsheet to manage them.


That bubble burst a long time ago.


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> Anybody understand these new "Social Bubbles"?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Florida sees 2 days of over 2000 new cases.

Yeah, this opening up thing is going swell (sarcasm).


----------



## keto

Will be 1st time grampa this aft. Will not be able to hold child, kids insist on 2 weeks quarantine, can't do it


----------



## Milkman

keto said:


> Will be 1st time grampa this aft. Will not be able to hold child, kids insist on 2 weeks quarantine, can't do it


Holy crap! Well, congratulations. I have no advice. I'm not sure how I'd have dealt with not holding my grand daughter for the first two weeks.


----------



## Milkman

Jim DaddyO said:


> Florida sees 2 days of over 2000 new cases.
> 
> Yeah, this opening up thing is going swell (sarcasm).



When the impact of all these marches and protests starts being seen we'll have some numbers too.


----------



## keto

Milkman said:


> Holy crap! Well, congratulations. I have no advice. I'm not sure how I'd have dealt with not holding my grand daughter for the first two weeks.


Oh, it's not 2 weeks, it's until covid is gone, unless I/we can quarantine for 2 weeks. ie., though they live 20 minutes away, it is feasible I may never hold my grandchild.


----------



## Milkman

keto said:


> Oh, it's not 2 weeks, it's until covid is gone, unless I/we can quarantine for 2 weeks. ie., though they live 20 minutes away, it is feasible I may never hold my grandchild.


No way. Anyway, good luck, and congrats!


----------



## Guitar101

A friends daughter just had a baby 2 days ago. No one can visit and if the father is there for the delivery and want to be with wife and baby, he has to quarantine for two weeks when he leaves the hospital.


----------



## Electraglide

keto said:


> Oh, it's not 2 weeks, it's until covid is gone, unless I/we can quarantine for 2 weeks. ie., though they live 20 minutes away, it is feasible I may never hold my grandchild.


Quarantine for 2 weeks or not hold your grand kid. If it was me I'd be stocking up on chocolate items and enough other things to last me for two weeks. By the end of two weeks that brand new baby crap smell will be gone anyway.


----------



## Distortion

So this covid virus got going in Wuhan China Oct 2019. Watching a documentary and they were comparing hospital parking lots from the the previous year (Oct 2018). Some had up to 100% more cars parked in 2019 over 2018. Months before the rest of the world was notified.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Florida, Texas and Arizona set records for daily COVID-19 cases


----------



## laristotle

keto said:


> Oh, it's not 2 weeks, it's until covid is gone, unless I/we can quarantine for 2 weeks. ie., though they live 20 minutes away, it is feasible I may never hold my grandchild.


Tell them that you're hosting a protest at your house.
Covid has no affect then, going by what's in the news lately.


----------



## keto

laristotle said:


> Tell them that you're hosting a protest at your house.
> Covid has no affect then, going by what's in the news lately.


We're not pressing the point, they're adamant, understand where we stand, all's well in the family. Had dinner with them last night, outdoors. Good kids, cautious but well intentioned, and don't anyone dare use the paved reply


----------



## guitarman2

On the US side it seems a lot of businesses are opening with charging a "Covid fee surcharge". Just wondering if this will start to happen this side of the border. If I'm not told before hand I would refuse to pay it.

COVID-19 fees expected as small businesses reopen


----------



## keto

guitarman2 said:


> On the US side it seems a lot of businesses are opening with charging a "Covid fee surcharge". Just wondering if this will start to happen this side of the border. If I'm not told before hand I would refuse to pay it.
> 
> COVID-19 fees expected as small businesses reopen


That's been going on for a few weeks now, here, as businesses have started opening. I'm surprised this would be the first you're hearing of it.


----------



## Milkman

And there will be a few business in every segment who will "absorb" those costs somehow in their efforts to be competitive.


----------



## guitarman2

keto said:


> That's been going on for a few weeks now, here, as businesses have started opening. I'm surprised this would be the first you're hearing of it.


Yup, first I'm hearing of it. I won't pay a covid surcharge. The thing that surprises me the most in the article is that dentist offices are going to charge it. I thought they were already supposed to be a sanitized environment. They already wore masks. Just a cash grab. 
As far as businesses trying to recoup what they lost while being closed. Most have been affected by this.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## boyscout

keto said:


> Will be 1st time grampa this aft. Will not be able to hold child, kids insist on 2 weeks quarantine, can't do it





Guitar101 said:


> A friends daughter just had a baby 2 days ago. No one can visit and if the father is there for the delivery and want to be with wife and baby, he has to quarantine for two weeks when he leaves the hospital.


Holy crap, what was happening nine months ago?

My daughter will drop #2 grandson in a week or less. She and son-in-law will be tested on arrival at hospital and must stay with wife and son until they all depart together, however long that takes. I'm not aware of requirements after they depart.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

https://www.newsweek.com/multiple-f...VW0Ur-aeaxeW0DJEZ-A_lzce27ykkDGNLHrqJIvdF_XSI


----------



## Diablo

guitarman2 said:


> Yup, first I'm hearing of it. I won't pay a covid surcharge. The thing that surprises me the most in the article is that dentist offices are going to charge it. I thought they were already supposed to be a sanitized environment. They already wore masks. Just a cash grab.
> As far as businesses trying to recoup what they lost while being closed. Most have been affected by this.


Ya, it’s more like a loss of income subsidy.
They know the insurance companies for most people will eat it.
I hope some go out of business (won’t happen). Way too many dentists where I live. Can’t walk 2 blocks without hitting one, and their junk mail rivals the real estate agents.
So many other occupations that someone with the grades good enough to go into dentistry could have chosen that are more essential and in short supply.


----------



## Kenmac

Well, as of Wednesday, Toronto is moving onto stage 2 which puts us a few steps more towards normalcy.

Toronto, Peel Region move into Stage 2 of province’s reopening plan Wednesday

Here's what changes when we get into stage 2:

"What can open in Stage 2?

• Outdoor dine-in services at restaurants, bars and other establishments, including patios, curbside, parking lots and adjacent properties

• Daycares, with limits on the number of children at each facility

• Select personal and personal care services, including tattoo parlours, barber shops, hair salons and beauty salon

• Shopping malls under existing restrictions, including food services reopening for take-out and outdoor dining only

• Tour and guide services, such as bike and walking, bus and boat tours, as well as tasting and tours for wineries, breweries and distilleries

• Water recreational facilities, such as outdoor splash pads and wading pools, and all swimming pools

• Beach access and additional camping at Ontario Parks

• Camping at private campgrounds

• Outdoor-only recreational facilities and training for outdoor team sports, with limits to enable physical distancing

• Drive-in and drive-through venues for theatres, concerts, animal attractions and cultural appreciation, such as art installations

• Film and television production activities, with limits to enable physical distancing"


----------



## player99

We're all doomed.


----------



## Milkman

Legions across Canada could close permanently, asking feds to help


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> Legions across Canada could close permanently, asking feds to help


They're doing work around the Legion close to me and it looks like it's open. Same with the #1 downtown. I'll renew my membership soon. As a side note mom and dad were members of Branch 291 when we lived on Lulu Island.


----------



## Milkman

I respect the organizations but in this city there are probably at least seven or eight similar clubs (ANAF, ANA, AN, several legions. Gunners club, et cetera).

I think the attrition was happening long before Covid-19. In this area they're starting to amalgamate, much like churches.


----------



## SaucyJack

Here in NL, the gov't has gone way too slow in getting things open again. One case in 46 days and have been at zero for a while now. I'm starting to think they enjoy keeping this place shut down....


----------



## Jim DaddyO

SaucyJack said:


> Here in NL, the gov't has gone way too slow in getting things open again. One case in 46 days and have been at zero for a while now. I'm starting to think they enjoy keeping this place shut down....


Well, better to be careful than to be a statistic. 

Florida is setting records for the last 4 days or so. Over 4000 cases per day now.


----------



## SaucyJack

I understand that but we have zero...none. Americans are getting it because they're not listening and won't comply with basic rules to keep it at bay. We've done our part.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

SaucyJack said:


> I understand that but we have zero...none. Americans are getting it because they're not listening and won't comply with basic rules to keep it at bay. We've done our part.


In today's news.....The whole country is envious of Newfoundland because they have finally proven that they are the smartest people in the country.


----------



## geedeecee

New Zealand had zero and then they started up again.


----------



## Distortion

SaucyJack said:


> Here in NL, the gov't has gone way too slow in getting things open again. One case in 46 days and have been at zero for a while now. I'm starting to think they enjoy keeping this place shut down....


yes been watching that situation for a while. The east coast should have been going weeks ago. But the people making the decisions are still getting full pay and OT. And the Cerb is still going strong. Silly.


----------



## SaucyJack

Atlantic bubble opens up on July 3rd. That should help tourism a bit.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Florida is setting records for the last 4 days or so. Over 4000 cases per day now.



You mean the place that deemed WWE Wrestling to be an essential service during the shutdown?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> You mean the place that deemed WWE Wrestling to be an essential service during the shutdown?


The very same. Owned by Vince McMahon, an advisor to Trump.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> The very same. Owned by Vince McMahon, an advisor to Trump.



His wife is the advisor to Trump, but otherwise yeah.

I also liked how Georgia's first phase of reopening included tattoo parlors. Way to live up to the stereotype there Bubba.


----------



## Diablo

Jim DaddyO said:


> The very same. Owned by Vince McMahon, an advisor to Trump.


I think the whole covid situation transcended politics. I recall NYC being among the worst hit...that's pretty far from MAGA country.
America is so different from here, with so much power being given to each state.
In a way, it united them all...they were all restless, over-eager to return to their pre-covid lives...Dems were no less ignorant than Reps. In fact, I would go so far as to say, that the BLM protests grew into what it did, largely due to the frustrations of months of cabin fever from the lockdown. they were dying for an excuse to get out and blow off some steam.


----------



## Milkman

I saw this article this morning. As someone who _was_ a regular business traveler (sometimes by air, sometimes by car) I'm watching with interest the situation with air carriers, hotels, car rental companies, hotels et cetera.

Until this year, those were a fact of life for me every month. Now, like many, I am trying to adapt my job to the new reality.

When I hear airlines talking about social distancing on planes I'm a bit confused. How long could they operate with basically half full planes when they were crying the blues about barely being profitable with FULL planes.

How does that business model work? Double the fares? It's not sustainable and I realize they may simply be trying to "prime the pump" but I worry that people will change their way of doing things.

With the technology we have now, I'm re-assessing my (until now) firm belief that face to face meetings are the best way to draw a straight line through a problem.

I think the travel and entertainment industries may be indefinitely gutted by this pandemic.

WestJet lays off 3,333 workers as pandemic continues to wipe out demand for air travel | CBC News


----------



## Diablo

without a vaccine, we're doomed to be a generation of health-scared shut-ins.
My biggest concern, as I have a 10 yr old, is what will school look like next year? Online learning has been a complete disaster for us. Most teachers have basically been checked out since March break. At the same time, going back to normal in September, with schools being a biological petri dish of whatever is going on in each students home, is, frankly, extremely worrisome.
my second biggest concern, honestly, is my marriage. my wife doesn't seem to be able to separate home from work. Ive been treated like "the guy in IT in the lunchroom" for months now, and am getting pretty frustrated with it.

Its a crazy world.


----------



## Milkman

Diablo said:


> without a vaccine, we're doomed to be a generation of health-scared shut-ins.
> My biggest concern, as I have a 10 yr old, is what will school look like next year? Online learning has been a complete disaster for us. Most teachers have basically been checked out since March break. At the same time, going back to normal in September, with schools being a biological petri dish of whatever is going on in each students home, is, frankly, extremely worrisome.
> my second biggest concern, honestly, is my marriage. my wife doesn't seem to be able to separate home from work. Ive been treated like "the guy in IT in the lunchroom" for months now, and am getting pretty frustrated with it.
> 
> Its a crazy world.


Although we're out of our school days as far as our kids go, we do have a grand daughter we see on a frequent basis so yes, I agree that the mixing pot we call public school is worrisome.

As for the work from home issues, you are describing one of the things I was most worried about when this started and any time in the past when I have considered working at home.

I have had lots of time to discuss this with my wife and she's overwhelmingly positive about me working here. I would have to do some thinking about why that is, but yeah, if I never went back to a regular office environment I could live with it. 

I've been on salary in a largely self directed role for many years so I guess I've had to really try to separate the husband and father from the .....well whatever the heck that other guy is.


----------



## laristotle

Diablo said:


> Ive been treated like "the guy in IT in the lunchroom" for months now, and am getting pretty frustrated with it.


Start day drinking and become 'the alchy in the lunchroom that won't stop hitting on me'.


----------



## Electraglide

laristotle said:


> Start day drinking and become 'the alchy in the lunchroom that won't stop hitting on me'.


Just watch out for the HR person unless you want to get fired.


----------



## Diablo

Depends on the severance package


----------



## Electraglide

Diablo said:


> Depends on the severance package


You signed that agreement where everything you got was the companies and you might end up doing janitorial work. At least when doing IT work you can always say "What the hell have you been doing/looking at with this. It's going to take at least 4 hrs to fix so just leave me alone and let me do my job. And bring me coffee and a sandwich 'cause I won't be able to leave until the job is done.".


----------



## Electraglide

One of the things you have to watch out for, especially in kids, is irritant contact dermatitis. One of the causes according to my Dr. is the over use of hand sanitizers, especially those supplied as you walk in the door of your favorite store. They are not all alike and can cause a reaction if you go to more than one place in a short period of time. Another problem is people will go into a restaurant or fast food place, spray down their hands and then sit down at a freshly disinfected table (still wet) and eat. Not a good idea. Same with going into a restroom, spraying down your hands and taking a leak. On top of everything else you have to explain that itch/rash to your sig other.


----------



## boyscout

Electraglide said:


> One of the things you have to watch out for, especially in kids, is irritant contact dermatitis. One of the causes according to my Dr. is the over use of hand sanitizers, especially those supplied as you walk in the door of your favorite store. They are not all alike and can cause a reaction if you go to more than one place in a short period of time. Another problem is people will go into a restaurant or fast food place, spray down their hands and then sit down at a freshly disinfected table (still wet) and eat. Not a good idea. Same with going into a restroom, spraying down your hands and taking a leak. On top of everything else you have to explain that itch/rash to your sig other.


I was horrified to learn a month or so ago that it takes about FIVE MINUTES for Covid-19 to die in alcohol. Those freshly-wiped hands or restaurant tables aren't completely safe.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

The experiment will fail. By the end of the year we will be back in lock down


----------



## JBFairthorne

Maybe. The daily numbers in Ontario are encouraging...even after the start of stage 2. Most days have had less than 200 new cases.

It’s hard to say how the season change (to winter) will affect the numbers but if there aren’t any spikes (like many people said would happen once things started to open up) then I see no reason to go back to more restrictive measures.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

JBFairthorne said:


> Maybe. The daily numbers in Ontario are encouraging...even after the start of stage 2. Most days have had less than 200 new cases.
> 
> It’s hard to say how the season change (to winter) will affect the numbers but if there aren’t any spikes (like many people said would happen once things started to open up) then I see no reason to go back to more restrictive measures.


Also depends a lot on where you are. Toronto will explode at some point. Here in the niagara region once the casino opens again and we start to get people coming in from all over the country we will have problems. I really see no other scenarios. Nothing has changed with the virus. No treatments no vaccine. The states have proven that as well as the UK. Only a matter of time


----------



## laristotle

Founder of ReOpen Movement Who Refused Masks Tests Positive for Coronavirus
_
In a video posted Friday, he said he was attempting to open his own church and blamed "Satan" for his contracting the virus, while insisting that COVID-19 had never been spread during the anti-lockdown rallies._

"No one ever got sick at any of our rallies, to include me. Start a church, and I get sick," said Walters. "I got it because Satan deemed to get it. Because he wanted to quiet my work, to slow down the building of a church. That's what this is about. But the world won't see that."

"Why? Because they live behind a veil," he added. "They choose to hate God."

Walters also said that he has been going into public without a mask for months, insisted that he has "not changed one iota" despite testing positive, although he said he had stayed home for most of the past week.


----------



## JBFairthorne

Toronto will explode at one point? One would think that if that were going to happen it would have before the lockdown. If Ontario numbers are less that 200 new cases/day, presumably most of those are in Toronto.

Perhaps you’re right but the historic pre and post lockdown numbers just don’t support that. I could potentially see a surge IF they fully open movie theatres, spectator sporting events and other indoor, high customer concentration venues. I just don’t see the government allowing that to happen. Allowing most businesses to open on a limited basis is one thing...a full, unrestricted opening is another.

I think most of the issues with high numbers in the US has more to do with the general American, “you’re not the boss of me” attitude which we as a Canadian society haven’t had ingrained in us since birth. From what I’ve personally seen, most people here have mostly accepted the restrictions and are making an effort to adapt. THAT attitude is likely the difference between 200 cases a day (Ontario) and 2000 cases a day (Florida).


----------



## Doug Gifford

Kingston is having an outbreak centred around a nail salon.

Hours-long lines for COVID-19 testing in Kingston, Ont., following outbreak | CBC News


----------



## keto

Part of the reason for the 'explosion' of cases in the USA is increased testing. A lot of younger people positive, who are unlikely to die or have severe symptoms. Keep an eye on death rate, as of yesterday or day before the 3 day and 7 day death rates on the 'worldometer' were both declining in the USA.

Back in the other thread in March or April, I posted multiple times how the number of cases was something like 10X what was being reported. Lo and behold, yesterday I saw a headline saying exactly that, estimates are 10X actual cases vs known positives. That number will generally decline as more and more testing is done. But still, even now, there's just no way testing is catching the majority of cases, given the asymptomatic nature of most infections. I don't understand the thinking, but here in AB they want every person who feels like it to get tested, symptoms or no. What a fucking waste of resources.

Deaths. That's the number to watch. And yes, I know there are problems with the inconsistent reporting, but it's still, to me, the best general indicator of what's going on.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

JBFairthorne said:


> THAT attitude is likely the difference between 200 cases a day (Ontario) and 2000 cases a day (Florida).


I think they are closer to 4000. They have stopped bars from serving now and are going backwards in "opening up"



keto said:


> 'explosion' of cases in the USA is increased testing.


Testing doesn't "increase cases" it increases discovery, which is a good thing, because then action can be taken then. Saying the increase in cases is due to testing is like saying the increase in temperature is from looking at the thermometer. Only Trump could logic that an increase in cases is due to more testing.


----------



## laristotle

I wonder how much of the increase are in cities where recent demonstrations are occurring?


----------



## keto

Jim DaddyO said:


> I think they are closer to 4000. They have stopped bars from serving now and are going backwards in "opening up"
> 
> 
> 
> Testing doesn't "increase cases" it increases discovery, which is a good thing, because then action can be taken then. Saying the increase in cases is due to testing is like saying the increase in temperature is from looking at the thermometer. Only Trump could logic that an increase in cases is due to more testing.


You know what I meant. Thank you Mr. Semantic.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Clearly you dont live in the niagara region. People have gone wild here. Several parks and beaches only lasted about 2 weeks before they were shut down again. The beaches in toronto have been packed. Trust me people are just as ignorant in this country as they are in the states. We are just far less populated and spaced further apart. Except for the major cities and major tourist areas.


----------



## davetcan

Johnson warns over virus rules after beach crowds

Just look at how smart the Brits are ............


----------



## keto

davetcan said:


> Johnson warns over virus rules after beach crowds
> 
> Just look at how smart the Brits are ............


Go, herd immunity, go! Go, herd immunity, go!.

Man, I cannot imagine, personally. I'm not scared to death, I get around, but have some common sense ferchrissakes.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Jim Wellington

I see three different reactions in public and through conversations with people.

!. Some people operating as if China never fucked us...

2.People wearing masks in natural settings where there are no other people, and zero risk.

3. People using common sense and managing time, PPE and risk, with a little discretion.(the largest group in my area)

Feeling safe is good, but not at the risk of giving away your civil liberties to the dictators in Ottawa.

It`s a mean balancing act.


----------



## keto

Jim Wellington said:


> I see three different reactions in public and through conversations with people.
> 
> !. Some people operating as if China never fucked us...
> 
> 2.People wearing masks in natural settings where there are no other people, and zero risk.
> 
> 3. People using common sense and managing time, PPE and risk, with a little discretion.(the largest group in my area)
> 
> Feeling safe is good, but not at the risk of giving away your civil liberties to the dictators in Ottawa.
> 
> It`s a mean balancing act.


I will wear a mask into a grocery/hardware/liquor store, and nobody has busted my chops, but you can feel the pressure of being 'that guy' in some situations. I'm generally dressed like a DON'T TOUCH IT PROBABLY HURTS, so I'm sure that helps, despite that not at all being who I am lol.


----------



## vadsy

Jim Wellington said:


> I see three different reactions in public and through conversations with people.
> 
> !. Some people operating as if China never fucked us...
> 
> 2.People wearing masks in natural settings where there are no other people, and zero risk.
> 
> 3. People using common sense and managing time, PPE and risk, with a little discretion.(the largest group in my area)
> 
> Feeling safe is good, but not at the risk of giving away your civil liberties to the dictators in Ottawa.
> 
> It`s a mean balancing act.


Giving away your liberties?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

vadsy said:


> Giving away your liberties?



Yeah, like how they make you wear those pants in public too. Uncomfortable and restrictive....damn Marxist's and their rules.


----------



## vadsy

Jim DaddyO said:


> Yeah, like how they make you wear those pants in public too. Uncomfortable and restrictive....damn Marxist's and their rules.


all those sheep idiots..,


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Electraglide

boyscout said:


> I was horrified to learn a month or so ago that it takes about FIVE MINUTES for Covid-19 to die in alcohol. Those freshly-wiped hands or restaurant tables aren't completely safe.


Especially when they wipe down the tables with a water/bleach mix. I was more concerned what happens when you get a mixture of sanitizers on your hands and then you eat something like Pizza or a burger. Not particularly good for the digestive tract. BTW I doubt that they sanitize the Pizza boxes or the burger wraps and the bags they put them in.


----------



## Electraglide

GuitarsCanada said:


> The experiment will fail. By the end of the year we will be back in lock down


So that's about 6 months to party, right.


----------



## Electraglide

Damned double post again.


----------



## Electraglide

Jim DaddyO said:


> Yeah, like how they make you wear those pants in public too. Uncomfortable and restrictive....damn Marxist's and their rules.


Seems it's legal for a woman to go topless in Canada but a man can't go around without pants.


----------



## Electraglide

laristotle said:


> View attachment 319262


You know what's going to happen don't you? Can you hear the bells?


----------



## vadsy

Electraglide said:


> Seems it's legal for a woman to go topless in Canada but a man can't go around without pants.


Are the women liberty stealing communists?


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Jim DaddyO

Florida sets yet another record. Breaking the record set yesterday, which broke the record the preceeding day, etc.

Florida Covid-19 Cases Rise by 9,585, Most During Pandemic


----------



## bolero

this doesn't look good either:

Asymptomatic COVID-19 findings dim hopes for 'herd immunity' and 'immunity passports' | CBC News

quotes:
*
""This suggests that natural infection may not give long-lasting immunity, which is what people have been worried about,"


"Watts said she thinks the finding in this study that people without symptoms shed the virus longer than people with symptoms is "shocking" and suggests we need to worry about transmission from asymptomatic people.


"Until we have a vaccine, I think we should have very clear recommendations that everybody wears masks.""*


I haven't been following this for the past couple weeks: almost let my guard down by not bothering with a mask, because I assumed we were getting over the hump & not many people were actively contagious.


----------



## Wardo

To their credit they did a real good job designing this virus.


----------



## Electraglide

From. What I gathered from reading the article is that some think it’s time to run and hide because the Chinese followed/tested 37 or so people and found 70% had some sort of lung infection. Well I’ll be. Seems to me it would be alarming if they tested thousands...including a lot of systematic people. Could be if they looked into another 37 people they might find 0% had lung problems related to covid.


----------



## bolero

Electraglide said:


> From. What I gathered from reading the article is that some think it’s time to run and hide because the Chinese followed/tested 37 or so people and found 70% had some sort of lung infection. Well I’ll be. Seems to me it would be alarming if they tested thousands...including a lot of systematic people. Could be if they looked into another 37 people they might find 0% had lung problems related to covid.


 well, I posted that as information to share here, in the "covid 19 updates" thread. article was dated yesterday

where did it say anything about running & hiding?

" Could be if they looked into another 37 people they might find 0% had lung problems related to covid"

I doubt it...but keep pulling your medical stats out of thin air


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Electraglide

bolero said:


> well, I posted that as information to share here, in the "covid 19 updates" thread. article was dated yesterday
> 
> where did it say anything about running & hiding?
> 
> " Could be if they looked into another 37 people they might find 0% had lung problems related to covid"
> 
> I doubt it...but keep pulling your medical stats out of thin air


If you read the article you'll see that they found that, "70 per cent had lung abnormalities detectable in X-rays at some point during infection — mostly spots called "ground-glass opacities," which can indicate inflammation or other signs of disease" not that 70% had lung problems caused by covid. I don't see where I'm pulling stats out of the air. All I said is that they 'could' test another 37 and find 0%, not they did. They could also test another group and find that 100% had lung problems. Read that as you may.


----------



## colchar

Has anyone else noticed that they went from saying you had to wear an N95 mask because all others were useless to now saying that you should wear a mask, any mask?


----------



## JBFairthorne

...because it’s better than nothing. You can almost see them shrugging their shoulders.


----------



## keto

colchar said:


> Has anyone else noticed that they went from saying you had to wear an N95 mask because all others were useless to now saying that you should wear a mask, any mask?


N95 would protect from incoming, assuming worn correctly. Non medical captures the spit soaked outgoing, so it's not for YOUR protection but for those around you.

I don't know why both of those sentences seem to be very difficult to understand, but apparently the combination of words to make it all legible for the general populous has not yet been strung together.


----------



## Guitar101

colchar said:


> Has anyone else noticed that they went from saying you had to wear an N95 mask because all others were useless to now saying that you should wear a mask, any mask?


The way I understood it was the N95 masks were the best for stopping the covid droplets from getting through to the hospital workers but they were in short supply and they didn't want the general public wearing them. Supposedly, the non-medical masks reduce the travel of the droplets therefore lessening the chance of someone getting infected. Your right though, they did go from, "you don't have to wear the non-medical masks" until they realised that as JB said, it's better that nothing.


----------



## keto

For me, the takeaway here is what I already knew and have been preaching. For those who care whether they get it or not (many many don't!), you are responsible for your own protection. Nobody is going to do it for you, defend you, or force anyone else to comply with various suggestions to do with the well being of everyone else.

Young Americans are partying hard and spreading COVID-19 quickly - BNN Bloomberg


----------



## Doug Gifford

covid parties -- get your "Darwin did't know shit" tattoo right here.

Alabama Students Throw 'COVID Parties' To See Who Gets Infected First


----------



## vadsy

Doug Gifford said:


> covid parties -- get your "Darwin did't know shit" tattoo right here.
> 
> Alabama Students Throw 'COVID Parties' To See Who Gets Infected First


hard hitting news from the Scary Mommy web blog, not saying it isn't true but if it is some essential oils should protect you and healing crystals will realign your chakra


----------



## Doug Gifford

vadsy said:


> hard hitting news from the Scary Mommy web blog, not saying it isn't true but if it is some essential oils should protect you and healing crystals will realign your chakra


Yeah, but I saw it quoted in _Yahoo Search Results_ so it must be true.


----------



## laristotle

Same in Time
Students in Alabama Threw COVID Parties to See Who Would Get Infected First, Say Officials


----------



## vadsy

Doug Gifford said:


> Yeah, but I saw it quoted in _Yahoo Search Results_ so it must be true.


I liked the article on how to get your kids to enjoy bath time


----------



## laristotle

Wasaga limiting access after hordes spend Canada Day at beach, Niagara Falls


----------



## davetcan

Just had the test due to mild symptoms. Now I have to self isolate until I hear the results. If it gets worse I have to go back in for a second test.


----------



## vadsy

davetcan said:


> Just had the test due to mild symptoms. Now I have to self isolate until I hear the results. If it gets worse I have to go back in for a second test.


Dibs on your stereo?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Just saw the headline on CBC, didn't read the story, but they are reporting Toronto hospitals have no Covid patients in ICU for the first time since this started.


----------



## davetcan

My test results were negative but I still feel like shit 

24 hour turnaround from test to results tells me Ontario has it's act together.


----------



## greco

davetcan said:


> My test results were negative but I still feel like shit


Great news about the negative results! (Capt. Obvious reporting for duty...again)
Are you still cycling?...Heat and humidity getting to you?


----------



## davetcan

I was but not for a couple of days. I go out at 6am to avoid the heat and people. 🙂


----------



## butterknucket

239 Experts With 1 Big Claim: The Coronavirus Is Airborne


----------



## Jim Wellington

butterknucket said:


> 239 Experts With 1 Big Claim: The Coronavirus Is Airborne


Interesting article...

Still lots of disagreement.

I found these 3 statements in the article worth noticing... from a couple of doctors from Harvard and Virginia Tech.

*"People generally “think and talk about airborne transmission profoundly stupidly,” said Bill Hanage, an epidemiologist at the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.*
_*
“We have this notion that airborne transmission means droplets hanging in the air capable of infecting you many hours later, drifting down streets, through letter boxes and finding their way into homes everywhere,” Dr. Hanage said.
*_
*Experts all agree that the coronavirus does not behave that way. Dr. Marr and others said the coronavirus seemed to be most infectious when people were in prolonged contact at close range, especially indoors, and even more so in superspreader events — exactly what scientists would expect from aerosol transmission.*


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Jim Wellington said:


> Interesting article...


Yes indeed. I think it shows how little is really understood at this point. It also emphasizes for me that recommendations are coming from "commitees". Yes, they are experts, but they are still not unanimous in their thoughts. Until there is something out that is for sure I will continue to avoid scenarios with a lot of people as much as possible, and take responsibility for my own safety by masking up and distancing as much as possible too.


----------



## bolero

Jim DaddyO said:


> Yes indeed. I think it shows how little is really understood at this point. It also emphasizes for me that recommendations are coming from "commitees". Yes, they are experts, but they are still not unanimous in their thoughts. Until there is something out that is for sure I will continue to avoid scenarios with a lot of people as much as possible, and take responsibility for my own safety by masking up and distancing as much as possible too.


ditto....out riding my bike sometimes I get huge wafts of perfume, if I happen to pass downwind of people

hoping the wind disperses the virus better than all the scented crap we wear!


----------



## Jim Wellington

How long does it take for a 1 micron particle of water(with virus) to evaporate in the air when it`s 27*C? I read that there is a sweet spot, temperature wise(it was between 9 and 14*C), for virus transmission, but the article was relating to surfaces, not air, yet still food for thought. Humidity and temp are real variables in this from what I`ve read.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> Yes indeed. I think it shows how little is really understood at this point. It also emphasizes for me that recommendations are coming from "commitees". Yes, they are experts, but they are still not unanimous in their thoughts. Until there is something out that is for sure I will continue to avoid scenarios with a lot of people as much as possible, and take responsibility for my own safety by masking up and distancing as much as possible too.


So why is it that the Climate Scientists know everything but the Virus Scientists know so little? I thought Science was Truth


----------



## Jim DaddyO

allthumbs56 said:


> So why is it that the Climate Scientists know everything but the Virus Scientists know so little? I thought Science was Truth


How can I answer that when I don't think Climate Scientists know everything?

One difference I can point to is the vast majority of Climate Scientists have formed a consensus based on the data they have. There is still a margin of error in that you can't really predict the future and they admittedly don't have ALL the data. It's just based on their best modelling examples (again, just based on the data they have). But it is pretty much accepted within the community of Climate Scientists, except for a few detractors. The studies and models hold up to peer review. Which is how science works.

Virus Scientists have never had anything like Covid before. They have only had 6 months or so to study it. There is very little data, and some has been proven to be skewed by using testing procedures not in line with the scientific method. So, they give it their best shot based on how other similar virus's work, which may, or may not, be accurate. They are still in the early stages of learning.

Either way Science has very few "definite" statements. Most of it is just "based on our data, observations, and experiments, this seems to be true" and it is always open to improvement, adjustment, or a whole other theory all together.

If you can remember back to your high school days (which is a bit foggy for me) and can recall Science class (I took physics and chemestry, so I can't speak to biology) you will remember a whole tedious process you had to go through when conducting an experiment. You lead with the purpose, then the methodology, then the how things are measured and under what circumstances, then the observations, and conclusion....or something like that. You have to go through that whole boring process because that is how it works in real world science. Anything you do has to be repeatable by others and they must get the same results to verify your conclusion....aka peer review. Science NEVER starts with a conclusion and then works toward that end. It starts with a theory then figures out a way to test it to see if there is something to it. That is the short version anyway.


----------



## Electraglide

Jim DaddyO said:


> How can I answer that when I don't think Climate Scientists know everything?
> 
> One difference I can point to is the vast majority of Climate Scientists have formed a consensus based on the data they have. There is still a margin of error in that you can't really predict the future and they admittedly don't have ALL the data. It's just based on their best modelling examples (again, just based on the data they have). But it is pretty much accepted within the community of Climate Scientists, except for a few detractors. The studies and models hold up to peer review. Which is how science works.
> 
> Virus Scientists have never had anything like Covid before. They have only had 6 months or so to study it. There is very little data, and some has been proven to be skewed by using testing procedures not in line with the scientific method. So, they give it their best shot based on how other similar virus's work, which may, or may not, be accurate. They are still in the early stages of learning.
> 
> Either way Science has very few "definite" statements. Most of it is just "based on our data, observations, and experiments, this seems to be true" and it is always open to improvement, adjustment, or a whole other theory all together.
> 
> If you can remember back to your high school days (which is a bit foggy for me) and can recall Science class (I took physics and chemestry, so I can't speak to biology) you will remember a whole tedious process you had to go through when conducting an experiment. You lead with the purpose, then the methodology, then the how things are measured and under what circumstances, then the observations, and conclusion....or something like that. You have to go through that whole boring process because that is how it works in real world science. Anything you do has to be repeatable by others and they must get the same results to verify your conclusion....aka peer review. Science NEVER starts with a conclusion and then works toward that end. It starts with a theory then figures out a way to test it to see if there is something to it. That is the short version anyway.


"Now was that P or K?"


----------



## High/Deaf

Jim DaddyO said:


> How can I answer that when I don't think Climate Scientists know everything?
> 
> One difference I can point to is the vast majority of Climate Scientists have formed a consensus based on the data they have.


Hardly a 'vast majority', although the environmental alarmists would have you believe that. They are also active in shutting down the other POV, so hardly 'science' at all, more just hyperbole and manufactured panic.


----------



## Jim Wellington

Not including a couple of ice ages in their computer model...gee would that change conclusions?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

High/Deaf said:


> 'vast majority',


I would say 97% is a vast majority.

Do scientists agree on climate change? – Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet

https://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-scientific-consensus-intermediate.htm

Isn't there a lot of disagreement among climate scientists about global warming? | NOAA Climate.gov

Now, I'm not denying that there are publications refuting this, but you have to ask if they are Scientific reports, such as NASA and NOAA, or do they come from "think tanks" which can be biased or other non-scientifc reporting?

Unfortunately, some are now debating the term "consensus" instead of the scientific findings, which is just a distraction from the real issue.

How to Determine the Scientific Consensus on Global Warming

Gotta keep editing this post as more research comes to my attention.

Those 3% of scientific papers that deny climate change? A review found them all flawed


----------



## High/Deaf

Jim DaddyO said:


> I would say 97% is a vast majority.
> 
> Do scientists agree on climate change? – Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet
> 
> https://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-scientific-consensus-intermediate.htm
> 
> Isn't there a lot of disagreement among climate scientists about global warming? | NOAA Climate.gov
> 
> Now, I'm not denying that there are publications refuting this, but you have to ask if they are Scientific reports, such as NASA and NOAA, or do they come from "think tanks" which can be biased or other non-scientifc reporting?


Agreeing that there's climate change? I would suspect 97% is low. 

Forming a consensus on the causes and future outcomes? Not the same thing, and not nearly the same buy-in. Not nearly 97%.

When you said 'consensus', I thought that's what you were referring to. A consensus on 'is the climate changing'? Sure, that's as easy as forming a consensus on which horizon the sun will appear at tomorrow morning. That's easy to do.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

High/Deaf said:


> Forming a consensus on the causes and future outcomes?


Searching for "causes" brings up the same results that I posted. As for future outcomes? That will vary on where you live. Canada, for example, could benefit from a longer growing season and an increase in arable land.....in some parts. Other areas of Canada could face devastation due to heat waves, water shortages, wild fires, etc. Globally, parts of the world could become unable to sustain life. No crops/rain, desertification etc., which would lead to mass migrations of people globally. Which would bring other issues. Those areas still habitable would become more crowded and more suseptible to widespread disease for instance.....just to bring the thread back on course.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> How can I answer that when I don't think Climate Scientists know everything?
> 
> One difference I can point to is the vast majority of Climate Scientists have formed a consensus based on the data they have. There is still a margin of error in that you can't really predict the future and they admittedly don't have ALL the data. It's just based on their best modelling examples (again, just based on the data they have). But it is pretty much accepted within the community of Climate Scientists, except for a few detractors. The studies and models hold up to peer review. Which is how science works.
> 
> Virus Scientists have never had anything like Covid before. They have only had 6 months or so to study it. There is very little data, and some has been proven to be skewed by using testing procedures not in line with the scientific method. So, they give it their best shot based on how other similar virus's work, which may, or may not, be accurate. They are still in the early stages of learning.
> 
> Either way Science has very few "definite" statements. Most of it is just "based on our data, observations, and experiments, this seems to be true" and it is always open to improvement, adjustment, or a whole other theory all together.
> 
> If you can remember back to your high school days (which is a bit foggy for me) and can recall Science class (I took physics and chemestry, so I can't speak to biology) you will remember a whole tedious process you had to go through when conducting an experiment. You lead with the purpose, then the methodology, then the how things are measured and under what circumstances, then the observations, and conclusion....or something like that. You have to go through that whole boring process because that is how it works in real world science. Anything you do has to be repeatable by others and they must get the same results to verify your conclusion....aka peer review. Science NEVER starts with a conclusion and then works toward that end. It starts with a theory then figures out a way to test it to see if there is something to it. That is the short version anyway.


Thanks for that Jim, but I was being facetious. There are a lot of people out there who believe that Science is 100% correct and unmoving. It is anything but. More importantly, like any other establishment, the moment people become involved they add their own twists, biases and narratives as per their objectives.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim Wellington said:


> Not including a couple of ice ages in their computer model...gee would that change conclusions?


Or that pesky 100 years of data between 1850 and 1950?


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> I would say 97% is a vast majority.
> 
> Do scientists agree on climate change? – Climate Change: Vital Signs of the Planet
> 
> https://www.skepticalscience.com/global-warming-scientific-consensus-intermediate.htm
> 
> Isn't there a lot of disagreement among climate scientists about global warming? | NOAA Climate.gov
> 
> Now, I'm not denying that there are publications refuting this, but you have to ask if they are Scientific reports, such as NASA and NOAA, or do they come from "think tanks" which can be biased or other non-scientifc reporting?
> 
> Unfortunately, some are now debating the term "consensus" instead of the scientific findings, which is just a distraction from the real issue.
> 
> How to Determine the Scientific Consensus on Global Warming
> 
> Gotta keep editing this post as more research comes to my attention.
> 
> Those 3% of scientific papers that deny climate change? A review found them all flawed


I don't think that anyone would deny that "Change" exists. It's like denying that "Fun" is good. However, to some people "Change" means only disaster.


----------



## Milkman

Brazil’s President Jair Bolsonaro tests positive for coronavirus - National | Globalnews.ca


Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro confirmed the test results while wearing a mask and speaking to reporters, saying he had begun feeling ill on Sunday




globalnews.ca


----------



## Jim DaddyO

allthumbs56 said:


> Thanks for that Jim, but I was being facetious. There are a lot of people out there who believe that Science is 100% correct and unmoving. It is anything but. More importantly, like any other establishment, the moment people become involved they add their own twists, biases and narratives as per their objectives.



Sorry, missed the sarcasm font....lol

Yes, I agree. As I have said, science is always open to revision based on new data and experimental results.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

allthumbs56 said:


> Or that pesky 100 years of data between 1850 and 1950?


That was Environment Canada.

GOLDSTEIN: Feds scrapped 100 years of data on climate change


More references to data....how it's collected, and how it is verified to be accurate or not.

Was Global Warming Data 'Faked' to 'Fit Climate Change Fictions'?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Another little puzzle piece comes into play as scientists work away at solving this pandemic.

Scientists identify compounds that block replication of COVID-19 virus


----------



## Jim DaddyO

I haven't read it all yet but I thought I would share. Let's hope we open up carefully, take reasonable precautions, and keep the border closed.

In Canada, the cases of COVID-19 and deaths are declining. Here's the story behind the numbers


----------



## Jim DaddyO

30-year-old dies after attending 'COVID party' thinking virus was a 'hoax'


----------



## Electraglide

And what happens when you say "Nope.". You figure the way things are that they're going to ask a party of 4 or more to leave? 


Requirement for N.B. restaurants to collect contact information raises privacy questions


----------



## Milkman

Jim DaddyO said:


> 30-year-old dies after attending 'COVID party' thinking virus was a 'hoax'


This goes beyond simply being cavalier about the risk.

This is next level willful ignorance and treating life as a cheap commodity.

Prime candidate for the Darwin awards.


----------



## Jim Wellington

Electraglide said:


> And what happens when you say "Nope.". You figure the way things are that they're going to ask a party of 4 or more to leave?
> 
> 
> Requirement for N.B. restaurants to collect contact information raises privacy questions


Yes...they will ask you to leave in some establishments. I`ve lived in 4 different provinces. Alberta isn`t New Brunswick or Ontario. Ontario is full of finger pointers that can`t mind their own business...I think they had a "Karen" convention and the philosophy stuck. What about the chain restaurants like Boston Pizza for example? If it`s policy, you will have to leave or someone could lose their job.

Some restaurants will do the right thing and others will sell data to whomever will buy it. Phone solicitors would be one group that could benefit directly.


----------



## butterknucket

Insisting Country is Coronavirus-free, Turkmenistan Orders Mask-wearing to Combat 'Dust'


It also asked residents to maintain social distancing of at least one metre but gave no explanation. Officials also asked Turkmens not to stand too close to air conditioners after spending time outside, where summertime temperatures regularly exceed 40 degrees Celsius.




www.news18.com


----------



## bolero

couple interesting articles from the BBC:









Coronavirus doctor's diary: Why are people remaining ill for so long?


Dr John Wright on two young patients seen at Bradford Royal Infirmary's Covid-19 "survivors' clinic".



www.bbc.co.uk













Coronavirus: What does Covid-19 do to the brain?


How can coronavirus affect the brain? The BBC’s medical correspondent investigates.



www.bbc.co.uk













Coronavirus: Why surviving the virus may be just the beginning


For many survivors, waking up in intensive care was only the beginning of a long process of physical and psychological recovery.



www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Jim DaddyO

COVID-19 situation in the U.S. 'scary' and 'dangerous,' Canadian long-haul truckers warn


----------



## mhammer

A neighbour down the street is friends with one of the viola players in the local symphony orchestra. She arranged for he and his colleagues to provide a string quartet concert in the driveway of her home last night, and about 40 or so were in attendance, spread out with their lawn chairs over the front yard and street. The 4 musicians played for about an hour. The carport they were situated in provided decent sound projection and the music was quite audible, even fro across the street where I was standing. As an impromptu concert, you can imagine that they relied on pieces they all knew very well, Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Strauss - sort of the string quartet equivalent of playing Roll Over Beethoven, Wild Thing, and Louie Louie for an encore. Very tight, though. But the mosquitoes held off, the sky was blue and the breeze light. Ran into people I hadn't spoken with for a while as they were walking their dogs down the street and stumbled onto the event.

All in all, a delightful break from things, and a community event to be commended in this (or any other) time.


----------



## Distortion

Jim DaddyO said:


> 30-year-old dies after attending 'COVID party' thinking virus was a 'hoax'


hope they did not waist any health care resources on the doubter.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

This is not how you protect the people of Canada. It ought to be stopped.

International air travel to Canada continues to rise, despite coronavirus border restrictions


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> This is not how you protect the people of Canada. It ought to be stopped.
> 
> International air travel to Canada continues to rise, despite coronavirus border restrictions



On the news last night they were doing a story about the job losses at Pearson and they mentioned that 1.1 million people have come into the country since the borders were 'closed'.


----------



## butterknucket




----------



## Electraglide

These two guys, a Dr. and some agency head are trying to get Calgary city council to make face masks mandatory. Why are they not wearing masks? Not too sure but I think the way the agency head has his is not exactly sanitary.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Perusing the news and came across this headline on CBC.

*Bars, restaurants, social gatherings 'clearly' play part in uptick of coronavirus among those under 40, infectious disease expert says*


So, now we need experts to tell us that when there is a gathering of people, and some of them are sick, more people will become sick? What ever happened to common sense? If this is what they have to tell people, we are doomed.


----------



## High/Deaf

Considering their audience, it doesn't surprise me in the least.

But at least it's true, that's a nice deviation from their usual tripe.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Another tiny piece of the puzzle has clicked into place. It's slow going, but each tiny bit of information helps see the picture more clearly.

Your Coronavirus Antibodies Are Disappearing. Should You Care?


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> Perusing the news and came across this headline on CBC.
> 
> *Bars, restaurants, social gatherings 'clearly' play part in uptick of coronavirus among those under 40, infectious disease expert says*
> 
> 
> So, now we need experts to tell us that when there is a gathering of people, and some of them are sick, more people will become sick? What ever happened to common sense? If this is what they have to tell people, we are doomed.


As I have to keep repeating here more than I'd like to, much of the misery in the world begins with "But I was just gonna...."


----------



## bolero

Jim DaddyO said:


> Another tiny piece of the puzzle has clicked into place. It's slow going, but each tiny bit of information helps see the picture more clearly.
> 
> Your Coronavirus Antibodies Are Disappearing. Should You Care?


yes hopefully someone is working out how to test the T cells, which seems more accurate than the current nucleocapsid. according to that article. quote:

"
But the Roche and Abbott tests that are now widely available — and several others authorized by the Food and Drug Administration — instead look for antibodies to a protein called the nucleocapsid, or N, that is bound up with the virus’s genetic material.

Some scientists were stunned to hear of this choice.

“God, I did not realize that — that’s crazy,” said Angela Rasmussen, a virologist at Columbia University in New York. “It’s kind of puzzling to design a test that’s not looking for what’s thought to be the major antigen.”

The N protein is plentiful in the blood, and testing for antibodies to it produces a swifter, brighter signal than testing for antibodies to the spike protein. Because antibody tests are used to detect past infection, however, *manufacturers are not required to prove that the antibodies their tests seek are those that actually confer protection against the virus.*"


----------



## Milkman

Jim DaddyO said:


> Perusing the news and came across this headline on CBC.
> 
> *Bars, restaurants, social gatherings 'clearly' play part in uptick of coronavirus among those under 40, infectious disease expert says*
> 
> 
> So, now we need experts to tell us that when there is a gathering of people, and some of them are sick, more people will become sick? What ever happened to common sense? If this is what they have to tell people, we are doomed.


Common sense means different things to different people. You have to remember that a shocking number of people get their "science" from social media.


----------



## Electraglide

Calgary has enacted a "face covering" bylaw.








Response to COVID-19 (Coronavirus)







www.calgary.ca




Not a "mask" but a 'face covering' bylaw.....but no where that I can see is there anything that states what is or isn't an allowed face covering or who will enforce this bylaw. This is a face covering.








and from looking at the bylaw, it's legal. So is this one









The CPP don't know and neither do various security people that I have asked. Not too sure about transit drivers but I can't see c-train drivers doing much.


----------



## sulphur




----------



## colchar

U.S. billionaires richer by $434 billion since coronavirus pandemic began: report - National | Globalnews.ca


Nearly 39 million Americans have filed for unemployment in the same time period.




globalnews.ca


----------



## Milkman

This is not really an update, but connected to Covid-19 so hopefully the OP doesn't mind. 😜

Why do we have video meetings and half of those attending conceal their cameras?

I've noticed this happening fairly often and so far I have not felt comfortable mentioning it but I'm talking about work meetings.

You can't comb you hair and put on a clean shirt for a meeting?

"Oh you don't want to see me. My hair is a mess....et cetera"?

For me at least, I won't attend a video meeting without showing my face. One of the main advantages of a video meeting is the ability to watch body language / facial reactions.

I'm worried about mentioning it because some people are so sensitive about their "rights to privacy".


----------



## laristotle

Milkman said:


> some people are so sensitive about their "*rights to privacy*"


Answered your own question.
IMO, it has nothing to do with being sensitive either. 
Maybe a new mother is breast feeding her child at that moment? 
A male co-worker may be whacking off watching porn on a split screen?


----------



## Milkman

laristotle said:


> Answered your own question.
> IMO, it has nothing to do with being sensitive either.
> Maybe a new mother is breast feeding her child at that moment?
> A male co-worker may be whacking off watching porn on a split screen?


Well, I can tell you we have no nursing mothers among those attending these particular meetings. I know them all personally.

As for privacy, I try not to have anything in my camera's eye that would be dangerous. Granted my mind doesn't really have that level of paranoia but I try to be careful.

If you're whacking off during a meeting you may have serious underlying problems, but all we need to see is you face.

Also, as this is work, my office is an office, not simply a room in my home.

And this happens even with people attending from their workplaces.


----------



## Guitar101

If your boss doesn't care I wouldn't either. You could throw the video blockers off by changing the background to look like your on a beach somewhere. I think you can do that in Zoom.


----------



## Milkman

Guitar101 said:


> If your boss doesn't care I wouldn't either. You could throw the video blockers off by changing the background to look like your on a beach somewhere. I think you can do that in Zoom.


Yes, if showing the background is a problem you can set up any picture as a background.

I just think those of us who are working from home are already feeling isolated and it's just one way to help with that if you are seeing the people you're meeting with.

It's not a huge thing, just one little thing that bugs me. 

And, it's one more thing that helps delineate the difference between watching Netflix and eating cheeseballs on the couch with actually WORKING from home.

If you attended a meeting in the office you'd show up with your teeth and hair brushed and clean clothes on.

Meh, all these so called "social" people sure have strange ways of showing it, LOL.


----------



## colchar

Milkman said:


> This is not really an update, but connected to Covid-19 so hopefully the OP doesn't mind. 😜
> 
> Why do we have video meetings and half of those attending conceal their cameras?
> 
> I've noticed this happening fairly often and so far I have not felt comfortable mentioning it but I'm talking about work meetings.
> 
> You can't comb you hair and put on a clean shirt for a meeting?
> 
> "Oh you don't want to see me. My hair is a mess....et cetera"?
> 
> For me at least, I won't attend a video meeting without showing my face. One of the main advantages of a video meeting is the ability to watch body language / facial reactions.
> 
> I'm worried about mentioning it because some people are so sensitive about their "rights to privacy".



Some of us forced to attend those meetings do so on desktop computers that don't have cameras so it isn't about concealment.


----------



## Milkman

colchar said:


> Some of us forced to attend those meetings do so on desktop computers that don't have cameras so it isn't about concealment.


Yes, that happens, but let's just say, I know that is not the case for most. I only know of one person I have met with recently who has no camera on their PC. Almost ALL of our associates are using modern laptops. In fact, in my office, I bought them.

I'm afraid in most cases it IS concealment, and maybe people have a perfectly good reason, but I feel that I have a certain responsibility to respect the fact that I'm being paid and if I was in the office I would be in a uniform and my face (other than maybe a mask these days) would be visible.

A perfectly good reason is not that I didn't feel like washing my hair today.


----------



## colchar

Milkman said:


> Yes, that happens, but let's just say, I know that is not the case for most. I only know of one person I have met with recently who has no camera on their PC. Almost ALL of our associates are using modern laptops. In fact, in my office, I bought them.


Just because they have then, doesn't mean they are using them. I have a laptop with a camera, etc. but prefer my desktop when attending these meetings so that I can have paperwork on my desk in front of me.




> I'm afraid in most cases it IS concealment


You are making an assumption.





> and maybe people have a perfectly good reason, but I feel that I have a certain responsibility to respect the fact that I'm being paid and if I was in the office I would be in a uniform and my face (other than maybe a mask these days) would be visible.


But they aren't in the office so different rules apply.





> A perfectly good reason is not that I didn't feel like washing my hair today.



Again, you're making an assumption.


----------



## Electraglide

If you are having a meeting with someone on the phone can you see their face? Does it make any difference? As far as being able to read someones facial and body language I find that hard to do, especially if all you see is their face and they keep on moving. On one meeting I have to attend regularly two of the people install a background....sort of like green or blue screening. The shimmer that occurs around their head and shoulders is a PIA. If they want to black out their video feed instead, for what ever reason, that's their choice. Could be that they are paranoid and believe that your computer will take over their computer and spy on them or could be that they are anti-social.


----------



## laristotle

Guitar101 said:


> You could throw the video blockers off by changing the background to look like your on a beach somewhere.
> I think you can do that in Zoom.


Need a green (or some solid colour) screen behind you.


----------



## Milkman

Well several of the people who turn their cameras off definitely only have the laptop we assigned to them and for some of these meetings that's the computer that must be used as they must share confidential documents from their screens.

I'm actually making less assumptions than Mr. Colchar as I do know more about the meetings and attendees, but that's fine.

I have been told exactly what I posted as reasons for cameras being off.

And rules? I'm not talking about rules.

I'm actually talking about benefits and reasons for actually USING a video conferencing system if you turn off the fundamental element.

Just my opinions and not such a big deal, but as often happens here, I find myself having to defend a simple post.


----------



## laristotle

Milkman said:


> I'm actually talking about benefits and reasons for actually USING a video conferencing system if you turn off the fundamental element.
> 
> Just my opinions and not such a big deal, but as often happens here, I find myself having to defend a simple post.





Milkman said:


> One of the main advantages of a video meeting *is the ability to watch* body language / facial reactions.


Ha! You're a voyeur and you want to see your coworkers in a possibly unflattering situation?
Kinda kinky. 🤪


----------



## Electraglide

laristotle said:


> Need a green (or some solid colour) screen behind you.


Then wear a green shirt or one that matches the background.


----------



## Milkman

laristotle said:


> Ha! You're a voyeur and you want to see your coworkers in a possibly unflattering situation?
> Kinda kinky. 🤪


Nah, nothing like that.

I have always preferred face to face meetings. There's a lot more information "available" to someone who can watch and read reactions. In negotiations and also in assessing people's acceptance of something you may be trying to implement within the company, that can be very helpful.

Also, when you're working on maintaining a sense of "team" and trying to keep morale up, hiding in your apartment with the curtains drawn may not be the best idea.

Like I said though, it's not that big of a deal, just something on my mind.


----------



## Milkman

Electraglide said:


> If you are having a meeting with someone on the phone can you see their face? Does it make any difference? As far as being able to read someones facial and body language I find that hard to do, especially if all you see is their face and they keep on moving. On one meeting I have to attend regularly two of the people install a background....sort of like green or blue screening. The shimmer that occurs around their head and shoulders is a PIA. If they want to black out their video feed instead, for what ever reason, that's their choice. Could be that they are paranoid and believe that your computer will take over their computer and spy on them or could be that they are anti-social.


No, and that is why most sales professionals prefer face to face meetings.

I agree, that weird shimmer around your head when you use the fake background is distracting. I turned it on to see, and promptly turned it off. One guy I meet with used one a few times but has since stopped as well.

Reading someone's body language is a skill or a talent. Some can do it more effectively than others. Personally, I can't play the drums.


----------



## keto

Milkman said:


> No, and that is why most sales professionals prefer face to face meetings.
> 
> I agree, that weird shimmer around your head when you use the fake background is distracting. I turned it on to see, and promptly turned it off. One guy I meet with used one a few times but has since stopped as well.
> 
> Reading someone's body language is a skill or a talent. Some can do it more effectively than others. Personally, I can't play the drums.


I'm a screen blocker. Precisely because I don't want to be 'read'.


----------



## Wardo

The Ontario courts have acquired an e-filing and remote hearing technology which will become active in August. I don’t think you’ll be able to turn your camera off so no one can see you.

I generally agree with what Milkman has said about things like zoom meetings. Had one last week with about 6 people. One had is camera turned off and was trying to be a badass but really he just came off as being a jackass.


----------



## Milkman

keto said:


> I'm a screen blocker. Precisely because I don't want to be 'read'.


Well that seems like a pretty adversarial attitude particularly for an internal meeting. 

But different strokes.


----------



## Milkman

It's really not a huge thing. I just like the technology when it works well and as we cannot be together and cannot meet face to face with customers at the moment, I'd be happier if people would show their face during VIDEO meetings.

I'm not Brad Pitt, but I'll show mine.


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> No, and that is why most sales professionals prefer face to face meetings.
> 
> I agree, that weird shimmer around your head when you use the fake background is distracting. I turned it on to see, and promptly turned it off. One guy I meet with used one a few times but has since stopped as well.
> 
> Reading someone's body language is a skill or a talent. Some can do it more effectively than others. Personally, I can't play the drums.


You develop that skill very fast in some circumstances if you want to survive. Body and face language just isn't there on video conferences. When all you see is a person's face it's kinda hard to see their hands for example. Most "sales" professionals I know have been dealing with phone call meetings for years with no problem. 


Wardo said:


> The Ontario courts have acquired an e-filing and remote hearing technology which will become active in August. I don’t think you’ll be able to turn your camera off so no one can see you.
> 
> I generally agree with what Milkman has said about things like zoom meetings. Had one last week with about 6 people. One had is camera turned off and was trying to be a badass but really he just came off as being a jackass.


And what happens if you don't have the facilities to do zoom or any other sort of video meetings. My flip phone (burner) only has one camera, not on your face and I need a free internet connection. I tried my iphone for zoom once....for about 2 minutes. Didn't work worth shit. I know the CCTV meetings with lawyers and court dates that I had were crappy. The court camera was far enough away so you could see the whole court so not worth it.


----------



## Milkman

Electraglide said:


> You develop that skill very fast in some circumstances if you want to survive. Body and face language just isn't there on video conferences. When all you see is a person's face it's kinda hard to see their hands for example. Most "sales" professionals I know have been dealing with phone call meetings for years with no problem.


A face to face is always my first choice for many things, but right now that's not possible so video, audio and screen sharing is better than just a phone conference.

Phone meetings are often terrible. As someone who actually does lots of them I can tell you there are frequently audio problems and terrible reception, particularly when trying to link several overseas offices.
.


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> A face to face is always my first choice for many things, but right now that's not possible so video, audio and screen sharing is better than just a phone conference.
> 
> Phone meetings are often terrible. As someone who actually does lots of them I can tell you there are frequently audio problems and terrible reception, particularly when trying to link several overseas offices.
> .


Probably one of the reasons why I've always had jobs instead of "careers". Anyway, right now I'm going to head out into the real world and see if I can find a 50L6 GT tube and a 35Z5 GT tube. Hopefully NIB and hopefully Marconi. After that I'll probably head out to a casino for a while. I'll take one of my inhalers in case someone asks why I'm not wearing a face covering of any sort. Here in Ab. some places are doing the mask thing if the local case count goes up by a ceretain amount and will stop the mask requirement if it drops a certain amount. Calgary has dropped the fine to $50 and Chestermere is now charging non-residents to use the beach.


----------



## Wardo

$50 per day to park your car at the beach in Barrie for non residents. Boat launch fee for non-residents is $10,000 and $20,000 to bring it back out of the water onto your trailer. Although if the boat was in the water for more than 24 hours it’s $40,000 to fish it out.


----------



## Milkman

Bust Out Another Thousand?


----------



## Paul M

Milkman said:


> A perfectly good reason is not that I didn't feel like washing my hair today.


I admit......I laughed. You probably spend as much on shampoo as I spend on Britney Spears memorabilia.


----------



## vadsy

Milkman said:


> Meh, all these so called "social" people sure have strange ways of showing it, LOL.


kinda like all these anti-social people want to get out and socialize.....


----------



## Milkman

Paul M said:


> I admit......I laughed. You probably spend as much on shampoo as I spend on Britney Spears memorabilia.



NAH, sadly I do have to buy shampoo, and I've seen your Brittany shrine (and also that clip you posted to Youtube (leave Brittany alone!)


----------



## Electraglide

I guess we'll see tomorrow who wears a mask in Calgary and who doesn't....and who enforces the bylaw and writes the tickets. This is one kicker.
*"Please note:* Proof is not required if someone has an exception. Businesses are also not expected to deny services as not everyone is required to wear a face covering."
This is another one.
"Mahar said the union has clarified with the City of Calgary that transit drivers will not be distributing masks and will not be enforcing the bylaw."


----------



## Jim DaddyO

If people spent as much time following the guidelines whenever they can as they do finding excuses to not follow guidlines, we would get over this thing with much less drama.


----------



## Milkman

FAIL, Try again









Can’t download the COVID Alert app? Your operating system may be too old (or new) | Globalnews.ca


The underlying framework the app is built on is only available on Apple and Android phones 'released with the past 5 years,' according to the Canadian Digital Service.




globalnews.ca





Imagine my disappointment when I was unable to download the app to my wife's phone.

We don't throw shit away just because it's not the latest thing. Her i6 is working perfectly, but we can't even download the operating system that the app requires.

Works fine on my phone.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Milkman said:


> Her i6 is working perfectly, but we can't even download the operating system that the app requires.












The Apple way


----------



## Electraglide

Milkman said:


> FAIL, Try again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can’t download the COVID Alert app? Your operating system may be too old (or new) | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The underlying framework the app is built on is only available on Apple and Android phones 'released with the past 5 years,' according to the Canadian Digital Service.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imagine my disappointment when I was unable to download the app to my wife's phone.
> 
> We don't throw shit away just because it's not the latest thing. Her i6 is working perfectly, but we can't even download the operating system that the app requires.
> 
> Works fine on my phone.


Not to sure about i6's but there's no contact tracing or other things like that for my i5 phone. That's a bonus in itself. No pesky notifications. Can't for the burner either.....an iphone 4.


----------



## Milkman




----------



## colchar

Happy reading for those of us who have tested negative but are still experiencing symptoms which simply will not go away:










Main coronavirus test produces ‘false negatives’ at least 20% of the time, study shows - National | Globalnews.ca


The main type of test for the novel coronavirus around the world has a “false-negative” rate of at least 20 per cent, researchers from Johns Hopkins University found.




globalnews.ca


----------



## boyscout

colchar said:


> Happy reading for those of us who have tested negative but are still experiencing symptoms which simply will not go away


Someone met on the weekend has a healthy 30-year-old son in Sweden who was infected with Covid-19. Only recently - three months after diagnosis - has he been able to return to bike-riding.


----------



## colchar

boyscout said:


> Someone met on the weekend has a healthy 30-year-old son in Sweden who was infected with Covid-19. Only recently - three months after diagnosis - has he been able to return to bike-riding.



For me it is a continuous sinus infection that will not go away, a mild sore throat, unbelievably bad headaches (I suffer from migraines so am used to headaches and these are the worst I've ever had), some minor brain fogginess, aches and pains, and fatigue.


----------



## Wardo

And on the other hand my associate was telling me this morning that someone she knows in Florida is 70, been diagnosed with the 19 but only experiencing mild cold symptoms. Unusual for that age group but seems like you won’t know how you will handle it until you get it. Although, on a balance of probabilities - this virus sux.


----------



## Milkman

Wardo said:


> And on the other hand my associate was telling me this morning that someone she knows in Florida is 70, been diagnosed with the 19 but only experiencing mild cold symptoms. Unusual for that age group but seems like you won’t know how you will handle it until you get it. Although, on a balance of probabilities - this virus sux.



I agree. It's a hell of a roll of the dice no matter how you slice it.

Too bad so many people seem to be worried about number 1 at the expense of anybody else.


----------



## boyscout

Wardo said:


> And on the other hand my associate was telling me this morning that someone she knows in Florida is 70, been diagnosed with the 19 but only experiencing mild cold symptoms. Unusual for that age group but seems like you won’t know how you will handle it until you get it. Although, on a balance of probabilities - this virus sux.


On the SAME hand my brother's middle-aged kitchen contractor in Florida tested positive, was given drugs, and felt fine after a couple of days. (I don't know exactly how old or what drugs.) He's just finished his quarantine as is getting back to work.

So @colchar, it sucks to be you I guess. Hope it works itself out soon.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> Happy reading for those of us who have tested negative but are still experiencing symptoms which simply will not go away:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Main coronavirus test produces ‘false negatives’ at least 20% of the time, study shows - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The main type of test for the novel coronavirus around the world has a “false-negative” rate of at least 20 per cent, researchers from Johns Hopkins University found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


Unless you had some of the symptoms long before the virus. Part of the last blood test I had was the Antibody test. According to my dr. I've never had covid 19.


----------



## colchar

Electraglide said:


> Unless you had some of the symptoms long before the virus. Part of the last blood test I had was the Antibody test. According to my dr. I've never had covid 19.



I didn't have symptoms until after the virus hit. And the tests I had done were the nasal swab tests which do not test for antibodies.


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> I didn't have symptoms until after the virus hit. And the tests I had done were the nasal swab tests which do not test for antibodies.


I know, I've been swabbed a time or two. I've had some of the "symptoms" for years.


----------



## allthumbs56




----------



## colchar

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343107535_A_Proposed_Origin_for_SARS-CoV-2_and_the_COVID-19_Pandemic_httpswwwindependentsciencenewsorgcommentariesa-proposed-origin-for-sars-cov-_2-and-the-covid-19-pandemic


----------



## Electraglide

colchar said:


> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/343107535_A_Proposed_Origin_for_SARS-CoV-2_and_the_COVID-19_Pandemic_httpswwwindependentsciencenewsorgcommentariesa-proposed-origin-for-sars-cov-_2-and-the-covid-19-pandemic


Sounds like the virus has been around for a while and it's possible that the miners were maybe batshit crazy. A quick look shows that bat shit has a 10-3-1 NPK rating....would be good for growing pot, mixed into the soil or as a 'tea'.


----------



## Milkman

Holy crap!

I just received a cheque from my insurance company. It's a partial refund on my current auto policy due to greatly diminished travel (definitely down this year).

$300!!

I applied online but never received any feedback and was planning on following up soon.

Nice.


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> Happy reading for those of us who have tested negative but are still experiencing symptoms which simply will not go away:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Main coronavirus test produces ‘false negatives’ at least 20% of the time, study shows - National | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> The main type of test for the novel coronavirus around the world has a “false-negative” rate of at least 20 per cent, researchers from Johns Hopkins University found.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca


Plenty of routine tests have false negatives and positives. F'rinstance, it is recommended that, when measuring blood pressure - especially if you just walked into Shoppers Drug Mart to do it, or hustled to the doctor's appointment because you were running a little late - you measure it several times, because the first few readings are likely to be rather high and mistakenly suggest hypertension. Similarly, temperature readings can be off and bear repeat measurement for certainty purposes.

It would be great if tests for things like this virus weren't like Stanley Cup playoffs, where you shoot for best-of-7, but sometimes it's good to repeat a test, just for certainty purposes, and the community resources are provided such that repeat testing can be pursued as a public health strategy. After all, things like contact-tracing are only useful insomuch as all positives and negatives are_ truly_ positives and negatives and examples of each are not "hiding out" in the other group.

It's a shitty situation to have some ongoing set of mystery symptoms and not be able to either get repeat testing, or arrange for a doctor's office or walk-in clinic visit. In your own case, I know the added concern is whether you have something that might conceivably spread to your mother.


----------



## mhammer

This looks like a bit of good news.









Scientists See Signs of Lasting Immunity to Covid-19, Even After Mild Infections (Published 2020)


New research indicates that human immune system cells are storing information about the coronavirus so they can fight it off again.




www.nytimes.com





Ideally, such immune-system "memory" would be long-lasting enough that re-immunization would not be needed at a rate that could never achieve herd immunity. And, as I keep repeating, the known or presumed "world record" for immunity isn't more than about 6-7 months at this point. But it's a start.


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> This looks like a bit of good news.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Scientists See Signs of Lasting Immunity to Covid-19, Even After Mild Infections (Published 2020)
> 
> 
> New research indicates that human immune system cells are storing information about the coronavirus so they can fight it off again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ideally, such immune-system "memory" would be long-lasting enough that re-immunization would not be needed at a rate that could never achieve herd immunity. And, as I keep repeating, the known or presumed "world record" for immunity isn't more than about 6-7 months at this point. But it's a start.


So to get this immunity or any immunity, even if it's for just 6 or 7 months, I take it you have to get Covid19. (Didn't get too far into the article before it came up asking me to disable my ad blocker....not going to happen.) Go figure.


----------



## Electraglide

mhammer said:


> It's a shitty situation to have some ongoing set of mystery symptoms and not be able to either get repeat testing, or arrange for a doctor's office or walk-in clinic visit. In your own case, I know the added concern is whether you have something that might conceivably spread to your mother.


Here there are 6 drop in/walk in testing stations as well as at some pharmacy's. Here's a list
"Alberta Health Services released the list of pharmacies that are offering asymptomatic testing for COVID-19.
Alberta chief medical officer of health Dr. Deena Hinshaw announced Thursday that the program is now open to any pharmacy that wants to participate and can meet the safety requirements.
“Only people with no symptoms and no known exposure can be tested at a pharmacy,” Hinshaw added. Those with symptoms are asked to book a test through AHS.
Here is the list of pharmacies currently offering asymptomatic testing in Calgary:
*Northwest*

London Drugs, 8120 Beddington Blvd. N.W., 403-275-4804
Medicine Shoppe, 600 Crowfoot Cres. N.W., 403-455-9939
Pharmasave on Northmount, 4501 Brisebois Dr. N.W., 403-282-1208
Sandstone Pharmacies Simons Valley, 6213 Centre St. N.W., 403-274-2444
Save on Foods, 255 Panatella Hill N.W., 403-384-9792
Shoppers Drug Mart Market Mall, 3625 Shaganappi Trail N.W., 403-288-0111
Superstore, 7020 4th St. N.W., 403-516-8535
Superstore, 5251 Country Hills Blvd. N.W., 403-241-4035
*Northeast*

Calgary Co-op Pharmacy Village Square, 2520 52nd St. N.E., 403-299-5334
Medicine Shoppe, 2675 36th St. N.E., 403-291-0076
Mint Health + Drugs: Blue Bottle, 148 17th Ave N.E., 403 826 4116
Pharmacy Plus Ltd, 5066 68th St. N.E., 403-568-0005
Real Canadian Superstore, 3575 20th Ave. N.E., 403-280-8207
Rundle Pharmacy, 3735 Rundlehorn Dr N.E., 403 798 9280
Shoppers Drug Mart, 600 Saddletowne Circle N.E., 403-568-7143
Shoppers Drug Mart, 5500 Falsbridge Dr. N.E., 403-293-2560
Superstore, 3633 Westwinds Dr. N.E., 403- 590-3335
*Advertisement
Article content continued*
*Southwest*

Medicine Shoppe, 1935 37th St. S.W., 403-452-8333
Medicine Shoppe Pharmacy, 401 9th Ave S.W., 403-221-4383
Shoppers Drug Mart, 2412 4th St. S.W., 403-228-2129
Sandstone Pharmacies Sprague, 727 7th Ave. S.W., 403-264-7195
Sandstone Pharmacies Glenmore Landing, 1600 90th Ave. S.W., 403-255-4200
Shoppers Drug Mart, 19369 Sheriff King St. S.W., 403-873-9135
Shoppers Drug Mart, 317 7th Ave. S.W., 403-266-7328
Shoppers Drug Mart, 2250 162nd Ave. S.W., 403-201-8202
Shoppers Drug Mart, 3939 17th Ave. S.W., 403-240-4407
Shoppers Drug Mart, 7606 Elbow Dr. S.W., 403-255-1851
Superstore, 5858 Signal Hill Centre S.W., 403-686-8035
Pharmasave Glenbrook, 2 – 3803 26th Ave. S.W., 403-455-7227
*Southeast*

Imagine Health Pharmacy Downtown Calgary, 300 6th Ave. S.E., 403-775-9669
Pharmasave Copperfield, 15566 McIvor Blvd. S.E., 587-353-5303
Rexall, 3301 17th Ave. S.E., 403-235-5902
Sandstone Pharmacies Dover, 3525 26th Ave. S.E., 403-273-3366
Shoppers Drug Mart, 1410 1st St. S.E., 403-294-1433
Shoppers Drug Mart, 40 Sunpark Plaza S.E., 403-256-3700
Shoppers Drug Mart, 151 Walden Gate S.E., 403-254-0382
Shoppers Drug Mart, 8338 18 St. S.E., 403-236-1999
Shoppers Drug Mart, 85 Shawville Blvd S.E., 403-201-5545
Superstore, 20 Heritage Meadows Way S.E., 403-692-6235
Superstore, 540 3rd St. S.E., 825-513-9506"
Not too sure what other provinces are offering.


----------



## mhammer

Electraglide said:


> So to get this immunity or any immunity, even if it's for just 6 or 7 months, I take it you have to get Covid19. (Didn't get too far into the article before it came up asking me to disable my ad blocker....not going to happen.) Go figure.


Not really. In the absence of any available vaccine, the *only* way to examine how long immunity might possibly last for IS people who were infected and survived. But what nobody had any inkling about previously was whether ANY immune response to the virus, whether one's own bodily response or an externally stimulated one (i.e., a vaccine), had any sort of "legs". If people who successfully got over it show signs of a lasting immune response, that bodes well for what a vaccine might do. And as the article indicates, one would generally expect significant and longer-lasting immune response to a more serious case of the disease (i.e., 5-alarm fire, rather than a single-extinguisher stovetop blaze), and their results are showing good signs of immunity from even people who had a fairly mild case.

Naturally, one would hope that one or more of the various vaccines under development and into phase III testing are able to display similar duration of response. But that's still something that will require study and assessment. In the meantime, the possibility that people who have had it and managed to fight it off might be alright for a while is pretty good news.


----------



## mhammer

Interesting Australian study about popular beliefs: Young men more likely to believe coronavirus myths


----------



## laristotle




----------



## jb welder

laristotle said:


> View attachment 325617


Yeah, that ones big with the Q folks: DEPOPULATION THROUGH FORCED VACCINATION: THE ZERO CARBON SOLUTION - (We) Are The News

Hoping you didn't get that at a meeting.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

More information being found out about the virus. Seems they are building on a theory that evidence shows that it causes blood to flow through the lungs too quick to absorb oxygen. Interesting how they came about the discovery.

Doctor checking comatose COVID-19 patients for signs of stroke stumbles onto clue


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Science is following up yet another thread on which antibodies help prevent infection. Just at the preliminary stage and not yet peer reviewed but worth following up on. This could also hold part of an answer to a vaccine.

Scientists may have found first human link between antibodies, coronavirus protection


----------



## laristotle




----------



## keto

Hahaha we have a pandemic thread that survived the purge? 😱


----------



## SWLABR

keto said:


> Hahaha we have a pandemic thread that survived the purge? 😱


I think because it was sitting dormant in the deeper recesses of page 3 or 4. 

111 pages, and now doomed. Ha, ha...


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Despite cases going up due to the Delta variant it seems hospitalization and deaths per 100,000 cases has dropped quite a bit where vaccination is at a higher rate. I have heard some are condidering this disease to be past the pandemic stage and is, or is close to being endemic.


----------



## keto

Vaccines, at least the current ones, are going to be a very short term small scale fix. Herd immunity, the very idea is laughable, and always has been. We were told early on there had never been a successful vax for a coronavirus, that continues to be true. Look up the mu variant - word right now (and these things change over time as we learn more, not ignoring that) is that it's vax immune. COVID-19 won't be eradicated: WHO


----------



## laristotle

Rutgers student says he’s being stopped from taking virtual classes because he’s not vaccinated


The university requires all students, even if online classes, to be vaccinated.




www.nj.com


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Grainslayer

CNN now says 1 in 4 cases are children?? This school year should be intresting.Glad i dont have kids to add to the stress.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## mhammer

Herd immunity WAS a possibility, last year. The idea is that you have the majority of the populace capable of quickly fighting off any minor infection, such that there are hardly any people shedding enough virus to catch the disease_ from_. That IS why none of us are walking around terrified we'll catch smallpox, polio, or diphtheria - there's no one and nothing to catch it *from*.

What makes it a likely impossibility in 2021 is that:
a) a sizable chunk of the populace has not been vaccinated and may refuse to be;
b) a sizable chunk of the populace, including the vaccinated, fail to engage in other preventative behaviours;
c) humans tend to "mingle" internationally, and many other parts of the world are eagerly awaiting their first shot of some form of vaccine;
d) immune response seems to have some limited durability, but wanes over time;
e) the Delta variant is especially contagious and replicates at a faster rate than our immune system responds.

An immune response, whether created via previous infection or via vaccine, goes into a kind of light slumber if it hasn't being provoked recently. The Delta variant replicates very quickly, such that people can develop high viral loads (and shed more virus) in a shorter interval than with the earlier variants. Your immune system WILL respond to the infection, and eventually beat it down (which is why the vaccinated can get sick, but not enough to go to hospital or die, as well as why you can still get sick from something you've had before, but bounce back after a few sick days), but takes a while to do so. So in the "drag race" between your immune system and the Delta, your immune system is a 1985 Olds Cutlass with a V8, and the Delta is a dune buggy. Eventually, the Cutlass _will_ be able to go faster than the dune buggy and leave it in the dust, but the dune buggy will be out of the chute first, and ahead of the Cutlass for a bit until that big hunk of steel starts to really accelerate.

While it was great that some countries, like Israel, got on board with mass immunization early, it has been long enough since people there got their 2nd shot, that the Delta variant is producing a lot of "breakthrough" infections. If you got your 2nd shot in February, and you're 85, you're fair game for a breakthrough infection now. That's not a reflection of vaccine ineffectiveness, but rather long-term responsiveness of the human immune system in the face of a mutated virus that is nimble. 

The current thinking among British authorities is that herd immunity is now likely unachievable, and that we should probably stop wasting resources using daily case-counts as our barometer of how well we're doing against the virus, and opt instead for hospital admissions as the real indicator. Obviously, people will still require testing for a variety of practical reasons, but it shouldn't be our guide as to "how we're doing". Keep in mind this is the UK, where they've experienced a sharp rise in cases.

A researcher I used to know studied human aggression, specifically aggression between intimate partners. While that was her general interest, she relied on homicide data from police departments. Her rationale was that, while domestic violence tends to be under-reported, every murder *is* reported, so murder data was more reliable AS data. I think the same rationale applies here with respect to Covid. We can't test everyone all the time, and testing is generally done on a voluntary basis. So case-counts are _roughly_ and modestly correlated with general contagion and control in a region (I'll guess r = .6). There will be, I suppose, folks that avoid hospitals...until an ambulance has to be called, but hospital admissions due to Covid is probably a more reliable indicator at this point than daily case-counts from general testing; especially as more of such "cases" are in fully vacinated people who might feel lousy, but not enough to go to the hospital.


----------



## Brian Johnston

Update from the Governor of West Virginia:








Governor Speaks Out...







simonparkes.org


----------



## mhammer

That's actually a _misrepresentation _of an update from that governor. The subtext is that vaccination is somehow causal in these increases or at the very least pointess. In other words, it is framed as an anti-vaccination argument. I take exception with that and I would imagine public health officials in West Virginia would as well.

Always be careful about percentages when there is no base to scale things with. Going from 4 cases to 5 is a 25% increase. The video throws around percentages with no actual case numbers. That's deceptive.


----------



## keto

Here's some what Hinshaw says of Alberta, in the update yesterday. Her stuff is near the bottom on this article COVID-19 ICU admissions slam Alberta hospitals; Hinshaw says ‘the move to endemic was too early’ | Globalnews.ca

"In the last four months, 84 per cent of deaths in Alberta have been in people who were not fully immunized."
"While there have been some breakthrough cases in those who’ve been fully immunized, “the majority of these severe outcomes are in those who are older or have multiple medical conditions.” "
"In the last two months, not one fully vaccinated person under the age of 60 has died from COVID-19, Hinshaw said."

Pretty directly contrary to what's being implied for WV


----------



## Brian Johnston

mhammer said:


> That's actually a _misrepresentation _of an update from that governor. The subtext is that vaccination is somehow causal in these increases or at the very least pointess. In other words, it is framed as an anti-vaccination argument. I take exception with that and I would imagine public health officials in West Virginia would as well.


Huh? He provided stats... indicate where the flaw is in the stats, as opposed to having a different view on the vaccine. Or provide the full update and what was taken out of context. It's unfortunate that your feelings are at an exception.


----------



## Brian Johnston

keto said:


> Here's some what Hinshaw says of Alberta, in the update yesterday. Her stuff is near the bottom on this article COVID-19 ICU admissions slam Alberta hospitals; Hinshaw says ‘the move to endemic was too early’ | Globalnews.ca
> 
> "In the last four months, 84 per cent of deaths in Alberta have been in people who were not fully immunized."
> "While there have been some breakthrough cases in those who’ve been fully immunized, “the majority of these severe outcomes are in those who are older or have multiple medical conditions.” "
> "In the last two months, not one fully vaccinated person under the age of 60 has died from COVID-19, Hinshaw said."
> 
> Pretty directly contrary to what's being implied for WV


What's interesting is when nurses (BC and some place in the US) walk out because they don't want the shot and they witness first hand what it's been doing, and that the Delta variant is nothing more than the effects of what the vax has been doing. This is not my opinion, but from nurses coming forward. Not sure if it was CBC or someone else doing the story on the BC nurse walk-out. A week or two ago.


----------



## mhammer

Brian Johnston said:


> Huh? He provided stats... indicate where the flaw is in the stats, as opposed to having a different view on the vaccine. Or provide the full update and what was taken out of context. It's unfortunate that your feelings are at an exception.


It's a 69 second video. Not much time for qualification of anything.


----------



## mhammer

Brian Johnston said:


> What's interesting is when nurses (BC and some place in the US) walk out because they don't want the shot and they witness first hand what it's been doing, and that *the Delta variant is nothing more than the effects of what the vax has been doing.* This is not my opinion, but from nurses coming forward. Not sure if it was CBC or someone else doing the story on the BC nurse walk-out. A week or two ago.


If that's their view, then I'm glad they walked out. I'm not sure I'd want myself or any family member or friend to be a patient of any nurse with such a disregard for evidence. I will note there are also unvaccinated people on ventilators, dying from Covid, who deny that they have it. Sometimes there is no accounting for people who seem to live in an alternate realit Sometimes, ideology crowds out facts.


----------



## laristotle

Brian Johnston said:


> What's interesting is when nurses (BC and some place in the US) walk out because they don't want the shot and they witness first hand what it's been doing, and that the Delta variant is nothing more than the effects of what the vax has been doing. This is not my opinion, but from nurses coming forward.


It does raise the question of why many in the medical field are refusing the jab?
If any are more knowledgeable than us laymen, it's them.


----------



## mhammer

laristotle said:


> It does raise the question of why many in the medical field are refusing the jab?
> If any are more knowledgeable than us laymen, it's them.


Do realize that your "many" is a small minority. It's certainly more than common sense would suggest there ought to be, but it's not very many.

Note that there are plenty of folks with extensive science education that still believe the sort of weird shit you'd expect to find in Weekly World News (home of Batboy and Elvis sightings); the kind of stuff that would leave you muttering "But, but, but, you have a _biology_ degree...!". Forty-five years back, a psych prof of mine at Concordia looked at belief in scientifically untenable ideas as a function of how much science education the person had. He expected that more science education would be predictive of better reasoning and rejection of unscientific ideas. What he found, to his dismay, was that there was little relationship.

Some, I suppose, would say that sort of finding reflects poorly on the quality of their science education. Maybe, but I'm more inclined to chalk it up to the manner in which humans tend to acquire their knowledge and ideas in silos, never connecting that what they learned in/from THIS source and THAT source and that OTHER source couldn't *all* be true if they contradict each other. How many of these supposedly well-informed nurses have EVER, in their entire professional career, encountered a patient with polio, smallpox, or diphtheria? Do they counsel their older clients to get flu shots or Shingrix vaccine so they don't get shingles? Why? Because vaccines *work*. So why doesn't this enter their thinking when it comes to THIS immunization program? Is all of that other information pure bunk? Did polio disappear because it got bored? Is there some magical reason why all other vaccines work but these ones don't? Why do they accept that Ibuprofen "works" without ever looking into how it was tested and got approval, but view the testing of Pfizer vaccine as suspect without evidence? Have methods and criteria for testing and approving medical treatments gotten sloppier as we learn more abut how to do it right? And how on earth would such a change conceivably happen? I'd like to think people stop and ask themselves these questions, but the sad truth is they don't. People are like that. Too many of them, too much of the time.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Brian Johnston said:


> Update from the Governor of West Virginia:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Governor Speaks Out...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> simonparkes.org



....and the same guy today urging people to get vaccinated, with a bunch of other stats. "We have no other tools in our tool chest" in regards to the vaccine.


----------



## Brian Johnston

mhammer said:


> If that's their view, then I'm glad they walked out. I'm not sure I'd want myself or any family member or friend to be a patient of any nurse with such a disregard for evidence. I will note there are also unvaccinated people on ventilators, dying from Covid, who deny that they have it. Sometimes there is no accounting for people who seem to live in an alternate realit Sometimes, ideology crowds out facts.


No wonder they're dying... they're on ventilators. I thought that was established a friggin' year ago. I know of a few people in my city on ventilators, then it came out that it accelerated and caused the death... those two were taken off shortly after that report (given oxygen only) and they are fine today. They were taking a turn for the worse, as well, until taken off.


----------



## Brian Johnston

Jim DaddyO said:


> ....and the same guy today urging people to get vaccinated, with a bunch of other stats. "We have no other tools in our tool chest" in regards to the vaccine.


No other tools? Zinc, vitamin D, Quercetin, L-Acytelceistine... then there's Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine (currently being used successfully in India and Japan)


----------



## player99

Brian Johnston said:


> No wonder they're dying... they're on ventilators. I thought that was established a friggin' year ago. I know of a few people in my city on ventilators, then it came out that it accelerated and caused the death... those two were taken off shortly after that report (given oxygen only) and they are fine today. They were taking a turn for the worse, as well, until taken off.


I don't believe it's as black and white as you are suggesting. The article below explains it a little better.

"They're dying on the ventilator and not necessarily dying because of being on a ventilator." 









Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview


COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.




www.webmd.com


----------



## Brian Johnston

player99 said:


> I don't believe it's as black and white as you are suggesting. The article below explains it a little better.
> 
> "They're dying on the ventilator and not necessarily dying because of being on a ventilator."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview
> 
> 
> COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com


What I can say is this... there have been past videos and articles by actual medical professionals discussing the harm of a ventilator, and those disappeared from the net (YouTube especially). Apparently information direct from doctors treating people is misinformation.


----------



## laristotle

Funeral Director John O'Looney: Deaths Jumped 250% When Injections Began


A powerful interview, impossible to refute. The absurd policy regarding postmortems alone would prove the culling. Deaths Jumped 250% When Injections Began: Lindie Naughton Interviews Funeral Director John O'Loo




ugetube.com


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Jim DaddyO

Brian Johnston said:


> Zinc, vitamin D, Quercetin, L-Acytelceistine... then there's Ivermectin and Hydroxychloroquine


While any of these MAY be useful, there are no definitive peer reviewed studys that indicate that at this time. Many of the studies on some of these have been shown to be innaccurate with data that has been tampered with in favour of the drugs usefulness. Medical science requires peer reviewed, gold standard studies in order to accept a treatment and does not accept anecdotal evidence. That is a pretty high bar to clear and takes time. Which is unforturnate in some cases. The vaccine on the other hand, has passed it's due dilligence tests and development on Sars-Cov vaccines have a history of study that goes back almost 20 years.

The question then becomes...Why would you refuse something, without a valid medical reason, that HAS the research and studies behind it in lieu of anything else?


----------



## Brian Johnston

Jim DaddyO said:


> While any of these MAY be useful, there are no definitive peer reviewed studys that indicate that at this time. Many of the studies on some of these have been shown to be innaccurate with data that has been tampered with in favour of the drugs usefulness. Medical science requires peer reviewed, gold standard studies in order to accept a treatment and does not accept anecdotal evidence. That is a pretty high bar to clear and takes time. Which is unforturnate in some cases. The vaccine on the other hand, has passed it's due dilligence tests and development on Sars-Cov vaccines have a history of study that goes back almost 20 years.
> 
> The question then becomes...Why would you refuse something, without a valid medical reason, that HAS the research and studies behind it in lieu of anything else?


You mean, like all the research and peer reviewed research done with the vaccine prior to putting it in millions of people? To my knowledge, Ivermectin (Nobel prize given to its inventor) has been around for decades with about 4 billion doses administered to fight bacterial and VIRAL infections... and with good success. Sounds good to me. Hydroxycloroquine has been around since 1946, also used to treat viral infections (among other things). Both shown to be incredibly safe with long track records. Now, if you get people (and there are MANY, as Japan and India is proving) being treated with these things (ask Joe Rogan and Kirsty Alley), and they bounce back quickly, does that not tell you something, or do you need the WHO and others to do research to tell you they are OK? Seriously, do you even trust the gov't and governing bodies behind all this? In 2018, Fauci co-penned a paper that spoke about how more people died of bacterial pneumonia from wearing masks (Spanish Flu) than from the actual flu, then (at first) suggested not wearing a mask since it does nothing, and now is telling people to wear masks and even double up on them. It was PROVEN that oxygen drops to 19 ppm or less while wearing a typical blue mask, whereas it needs to be around 25 ppm. What kind of health consequences are we in for? I guess we can wait for the study.


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## tomee2

Brian Johnston said:


> You mean, like all the research and peer reviewed research done with the vaccine prior to putting it in millions of people? To my knowledge, Ivermectin (Nobel prize given to its inventor) has been around for decades with about 4 billion doses administered to fight bacterial and VIRAL infections... and with good success. Sounds good to me. Hydroxycloroquine has been around since 1946, also used to treat viral infections (among other things). Both shown to be incredibly safe with long track records. Now, if you get people (and there are MANY, as Japan and India is proving) being treated with these things (ask Joe Rogan and Kirsty Alley), and they bounce back quickly, does that not tell you something, or do you need the WHO and others to do research to tell you they are OK? Seriously, do you even trust the gov't and governing bodies behind all this? In 2018, Fauci co-penned a paper that spoke about how more people died of bacterial pneumonia from wearing masks (Spanish Flu) than from the actual flu, then (at first) suggested not wearing a mask since it does nothing, and now is telling people to wear masks and even double up on them. It was PROVEN that oxygen drops to 19 ppm or less while wearing a typical blue mask, whereas it needs to be around 25 ppm. What kind of health consequences are we in for? I guess we can wait for the study.


If those chemicals worked, why is anyone anywhere in world even dying of covid at all? Makes no sense. If those chemicals were proven to work doctors would use them, and in Canada and the US they would legally have to use them.


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> ....and the same guy today urging people to get vaccinated, with a bunch of other stats. "We have no other tools in our tool chest" in regards to the vaccine.


That's why I said the site Brian linked to was a misrepresentation. The 69 seconds shown there, out of an 80-minute address, create the impression that vaccines are *causing* the problem.


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## Jim DaddyO

Brian Johnston said:


> Seriously, do you even trust the gov't and governing bodies behind all this?


The government has very little to do with it other than saying the research done by science has shown it passes the approval rating ( a rating also set up by people with the skill set to do such things). The governing bodies are the ones who set the "gold standard" of research, testing, and peer review that have brought about every approved treatment and medication for decades. The ones that work every day, day in and day out, for all kinds of ailments. I would rely on that much more than someone claiming that if you carry this certain crystal around with you that you would be safe.


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## JBFairthorne

tomee2 said:


> If those chemicals worked, why is anyone anywhere in world even dying of covid at all? Makes no sense. If those chemicals were proven to work doctors would use them, and in Canada and the US they would legally have to use them.


The same could be said about the vaccine.

That’s not to say that it doesn’t have any benefit though.


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## laristotle




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## Brian Johnston

Jim DaddyO said:


> The government has very little to do with it other than saying the research done by science has shown it passes the approval rating ( a rating also set up by people with the skill set to do such things). The governing bodies are the ones who set the "gold standard" of research, testing, and peer review that have brought about every approved treatment and medication for decades. The ones that work every day, day in and day out, for all kinds of ailments. I would rely on that much more than someone claiming that if you carry this certain crystal around with you that you would be safe.


The governments have nothing to do with the vaccine, mask mandates, lockdowns, etc.? They have nothing to do with not approving Ivermectin or Hydroxy-Q, although people are using them to great success? Maybe you were referring only to 'studies,' whereas I'm not. Universities and research areas get money from the gov't (from US!!!!) to do their research, and isn't it odd that none of them are doing any research with Ivermectin and Hydroxy-Q? Keep in mind, these two have a long track record in controlling and eliminating viruses... not only that, when a patient requests it and a doctor refuses to give it (man won a case in Texas) there's something very wrong.


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## allthumbs56

Brian Johnston said:


> You mean, like all the research and peer reviewed research done with the vaccine prior to putting it in millions of people? To my knowledge, Ivermectin (Nobel prize given to its inventor) has been around for decades with about 4 billion doses administered to fight bacterial and VIRAL infections... and with good success. Sounds good to me. Hydroxycloroquine has been around since 1946, also used to treat viral infections (among other things). Both shown to be incredibly safe with long track records. Now, if you get people (and there are MANY, as Japan and India is proving) being treated with these things (ask Joe Rogan and Kirsty Alley), and they bounce back quickly, does that not tell you something, or do you need the WHO and others to do research to tell you they are OK? Seriously, do you even trust the gov't and governing bodies behind all this? In 2018, Fauci co-penned a paper that spoke about how more people died of bacterial pneumonia from wearing masks (Spanish Flu) than from the actual flu, then (at first) suggested not wearing a mask since it does nothing, and now is telling people to wear masks and even double up on them. It was PROVEN that oxygen drops to 19 ppm or less while wearing a typical blue mask, whereas it needs to be around 25 ppm. What kind of health consequences are we in for? I guess we can wait for the study.


Yeah, nope.

Ivermectin – Covid Guidelines India (indiacovidguidelines.org)


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## mhammer

Although I'm not a reader of fiction for the last 40 or more years, more and more I feel an inclination to read Don Quixote by Cervantes, the story of a man who, inspired by all the heroic stories he has read, feels a noble compulsion to go out and defeat imaginary dragons. I know it has often been ranked/dubbed the greatest novel of all time by groups of literary commentators (e.g., Don Quixote is the world's best book say the world's top authors ), on the basis of a great many factors. But, storytelling and prose aside, with each day, it feels more and more relevant. And it's not just with respect to vaccines, "big pharma" and such, but to *all* the battles people seem to feel a need to "see" and draw battle lines for - political, athletic, climate, racial, economic, interpersonal, on TGP, etc.- as a way to feel like they are pursuing a noble and honourable cause. Heck, I may even be doing it now.


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## tomee2

JBFairthorne said:


> The same could be said about the vaccine.
> 
> That’s not to say that it doesn’t have any benefit though.


No it can't... have you seen the numbers for deaths of vaccinated vs unvaccinated? That's bizarre logic frankly.


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## Jim DaddyO

I am not a fan of big pharma
I don't like hospitals
I don't like seeing the doctor
I don't like taking medicine

All that is moot when you get ill though. 

Anyone can be skeptical of the medical profession and medical science, but if you get covid, who are you going to put yourself in the hands of? One old addage is that an ounce of prevention is worth more than a pound of cure. True then, true now. When the stakes are lives, and they are, do everything reasonable to save them. Reasonable, in this case, is what has so far been proven. In the future there may be other things that get proven, but you go with what you got right now.

The best we got right now as far as proven knowledge is vaccinations, masks, and social distancing.


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## starjag

Jim DaddyO said:


> The best we got right now as far as proven knowledge is vaccinations, masks, and social distancing.


I do feel some frustation in the sense that proven knowledge, particularly for the vaccines, is due to the enormous big pharma investment. If a small percentage of that investment would have gone or could go to investigate treatments for those that get the virus (rather than sending people home with tylenol until they stop breathing!) based on (less profitable?) new and (for sure much less profitable) old antiviral medication, then we would have more comprehensive proven knowledge from vaccination, prevention, and treatment perspectives. So many rumors that the global picture could be different if the stigma on these old, cheap antiviral treatments is removed, even more so if big pharma could develop new antivirals. They were recently talking about a nasal spray developed in Isreal, but no media, no research $$$ behind it!


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## JBFairthorne

tomee2 said:


> No it can't... have you seen the numbers for deaths of vaccinated vs unvaccinated? That's bizarre logic frankly.


Then I must have imagined all the talk about how this vaccine was the way out of the pandemic. If it was why are number still growing? Lots vaccinated here now….numbers still going up.

My point wasn’t to disparage the vaccine or to suggest that these alternative treatments actually work. The fact is, nothing is really working effectively now, despite what the powers that be are trying to make you believe. If it was, we wouldn’t be talking about it.


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## laristotle

starjag said:


> a nasal spray developed in Isreal, but no media, no research $$$ behind it!











Forget vaccine jabs—next-generation COVID-19 pills and nasal sprays are on their way


“You can ship it to places that don’t have freezers. And you don’t need a qualified medical person to immunize people.”




fortune.com




_
“Our expectation is one tablet per year,” Sean Tucker, chief scientific officer of San Francisco biotech company Vaxart, told Fortune on a Zoom call on Monday, holding up a pill that looks like a simple vitamin tablet—the company’s new COVID-19 vaccine. The company has just completed Phase I trials, and Tucker says his team plans to conduct Phase II trials this summer, and efficacy trials late this year; he hopes to receive authorization for emergency use in the U.S. within a year. “We don’t need syringes,” he says. _


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## Jim DaddyO

starjag said:


> I do feel some frustation in the sense that proven knowledge, particularly for the vaccines, is due to the enormous big pharma investment.


I feel the same way, but research into Sars-Cov vaccines has been ongoing for a couple of decades now. Perhaps in 20 years there will be other avenues, but that doesn't help us now. I do agree that other things ought to have been researched over the past 18 or so months, and they have, some with no significant conclusion, and in the case of Ivermectin, the results were contaminated with false reporting. So at best "we're not sure" is the best we have on other treatments. Still, prevention is the best course. It may be too late for that as some are now accepting it as endemic. The vaccine may not prevent you from getting it, or even spreading it, but it sure ups the odds that you won't get ill enough to end up in the hospital, or the morgue.


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## Jim DaddyO

laristotle said:


> Forget vaccine jabs—next-generation COVID-19 pills and nasal sprays are on their way
> 
> 
> “You can ship it to places that don’t have freezers. And you don’t need a qualified medical person to immunize people.”
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fortune.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _“Our expectation is one tablet per year,” Sean Tucker, chief scientific officer of San Francisco biotech company Vaxart, told Fortune on a Zoom call on Monday, holding up a pill that looks like a simple vitamin tablet—the company’s new COVID-19 vaccine. The company has just completed Phase I trials, and Tucker says his team plans to conduct Phase II trials this summer, and efficacy trials late this year; he hopes to receive authorization for emergency use in the U.S. within a year. “We don’t need syringes,” he says. _


Given my fear of needles, I am cheering this news on hoping for success.


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## mhammer

JBFairthorne said:


> Then I must have imagined all the talk about how this vaccine was the way out of the pandemic. If it was why are number still growing? Lots vaccinated here now….numbers still going up.
> 
> My point wasn’t to disparage the vaccine or to suggest that these alternative treatments actually work. The fact is, nothing is really working effectively now, despite what the powers that be are trying to make you believe. If it was, we wouldn’t be talking about it.


Vaccines ARE working. They are not magic, and yes, there are breakthrough infections among the vaccinated, but those folks generally aren't ending up in ICUs or dying. Not as much "success" as anyone would prefer, but a whole lot better than the alternative. All the folks speaking on behalf of hospitals will tell you that the vast majority of Covid cases they are getting are among the unvaccinated. People who either come into the hospital because they feel worse than crap, or come in via ambulance are the ones they see. Those who are just "under the weather" stay home.

I'll explain it once more. Vaccines result in formation of an immune response to a specific pathogen. The degree of response depends on YOUR particular immune system, and how long it has been since you got vaccinated***. Even IF you have a competent immune system, if it has been a while since you were vaccinated, it will take a fixed period of time for a viral infection to make your immune system go "Holy shit! Pathogen, pathogen, pathogen! All systems go!", slide down the fire pole, suit up, and get in the engine. The trouble with the Delta variant is that it replicates MANY times faster than previous variants. So by the time your well-prepared immune system is on the job, it has a truckload of virus to contend with. It can't *prevent *an infection, or defend against infection quickly enough that you don't get sick at all, but it can fight off what has accumulated so far. That's why fully vaccinated people can get infected, but don't end up sick enough to go to the hospital.

Vaccines are never all-or-nothing. Your immune system is not all-or-nothing. And declaring that everything is fine and no one should be still worried is stepping a little too damn close to the edge of the cliff.

And again, I repeat, Ottawa's double-vaccination rate is about 81%, and growing. Our hospitalizations and death rates are a tiny fraction of what is observed elsewhere. I am reluctant to use case-counts these days (they used to be an excellent indicator back in 2020, but no longer) but Ottawa's per capita case count is <30/100,000 while other locales are >500/100,000. We recorded our first Covid death in more than 2 months the other day. Compare our numbers to the province of Saskatchewan and the state of South Dakota, both of which have a lower population than Ottawa, and a lower vaccination rate. CTV reports as of yesterday: "There are 361 people hospitalized with COVID-19 across Ontario, 30 of whom are fully vaccinated. Fourteen people among the 177 in Ontario ICUs are fully vaccinated. " I think the numbers speak loudly enough of the effectiveness of vaccines in reducing serious illness.

***_One of the reasons why Israel is seeing such a spike in breakthrough cases is because they started earlier than other places so it has been longer since folks there got their 2nd shot (waning immune responsiveness). It was also before anyone had learned that spacing 1st and 2nd shots out by about 12 weeks or so yielded better immunity._


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## laristotle

laristotle said:


> It does raise the question of why many in the medical field are refusing the jab?
> If any are more knowledgeable than us laymen, it's them.











NY Hospital Won't Deliver Babies After Unvaccinated Staff Quit


An upstate New York hospital will stop delivering babies later this month, in part because of employee resignations over a requirement they be vaccinated against COVID-19




www.nbcnewyork.com




_Six maternity staff members resigned from Lewis County General Hospital during the past week, worsening an existing staff shortage, the __Watertown Daily Times__ reported. The department has seven other unvaccinated employees who also could decide to leave, hospital officials said.

About 165 unvaccinated employees, 73% of whom provide clinical services, have yet to declare their intention to stay or go, Cayer said. The county-owned health system employs about 650 people.

Cayer said 30 people have resigned since the vaccine mandate was announced last month, most of whom held clinical positions like nurses, therapists and technicians._


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## Jim DaddyO

CTV website has a couple of interesting new reports.

The average cost of treating a Covid patient in hospital is $23,000. That is 4X more than a flu patient and 3X more than a heart attack patient and almost as much as a kidney transplant. In Calgary that cost is up to almost $50,000 per patient. About 89% of patients are unvaccinated.

In a related story, nurses are leaving the profession in droves. Working 120 hours in 2 weeks has resulted in burn out, mistakes, and loss of desire to be in the job anymore. This puts more pressure on those staying further agravating the situation and making it spiral larger. It also puts the situation for other medical treatments in jeopardy, delaying or even cancelling treatments that are required to save lives.

If you are concerned about budgetary matters, and you should be, a simple and free injection would go a long way to helping matters. One is directly related to the other. Remember, these are your tax dollars that are being spent on every patient, every hour of overtime, and every piece of equipment needed to treat patients.

EDIT: I erred, the vaccine is not actually free. It is about $24.80 of your tax dollars for a Pfizer dose. Rounded up, $50 per person to fully vaccinate. Much less than the cost of treatment.


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## zztomato

A vaccine is not some kind of magic bullet. They work as intended. If you remember what you are told every year about the flu shot- may prevent you from getting the flu and will lessen the chance of severe outcomes if you do get the flu. 
Those who are getting Covid right now are mostly unvaccinated. 
Here's the highlights from a recent report by Public Health Ontario;
Since the COVID-19 vaccination program began on December 14, 2020 and up to August 21, 2021, a total of 10,712,555 individuals in Ontario received at least one dose of vaccine including 9,756,368 individuals who are fully vaccinated. Of these individuals, only 18,051 became partially vaccinated cases and 3,782 became breakthrough (i.e. fully vaccinated) cases (Table 1).7
• The number of post-vaccination cases declines dramatically as time from vaccination increases (Figure 1).
• Only 9.3% of cases post-vaccination occurred 14 or more days after dose 2 administration and are considered breakthrough cases (Table 1).
• The rate of COVID-19 in unvaccinated individuals is higher compared to fully vaccinated individuals. This trend has remained consistent over time (Figure 2).
• In the past 30 days, unvaccinated individuals were approximately 8.0 times more likely to become a case of COVID-19 compared to fully vaccinated individuals (Figure 2).
• Among individuals 60 years of age or older, the rate of COVID-19-related hospitalizations was higher among unvaccinated individuals compared to fully vaccinated individuals. This trend has remained consistent over time (Figure 5).
• In the past 30 days, unvaccinated adults 60 years of age or older were approximately 22.8 times more likely to be hospitalized due to COVID-19 compared to fully vaccinated adults 60 years of age and older (Figure 5).
• Trends in partially vaccinated and breakthrough cases are a reflection of both trends in vaccine administration (increasing number of doses administered over time) and trends in COVID-19 incidence (Figure 3).
• Unvaccinated cases accounted for the majority (94.8%) of COVID-19 cases reported since December 14, 2020 and up to August 21, 2021, with breakthrough cases accounted for only 0.9% (Figure 4).
• Similar trends are observed for hospitalizations and deaths, with unvaccinated cases accounting for 92.4% of hospitalizations and 92.1% of deaths and breakthrough cases accounting for 0.9% of hospitalizations and 1.3% of deaths (Figure 4).
• Between February 3, 2021 (when routine mutation testing was implemented) and August 21, 2021, trends in variants of concern (VOCs) among vaccinated cases reflect trends in VOCs among all cases, with B.1.1.7 (Alpha) being the dominant strain from approximately March to June, and an increasing number of B.1.617.2 (Delta) reporting since May (Figure 7, Table 5). For additional information on VOCs among all COVID-19 cases, refer to the COVID-19 Daily Epidemiological Summary. 8


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## tonewoody




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## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> CTV website has a couple of interesting new reports.
> 
> In a related story, nurses are leaving the profession in droves. Working 120 hours in 2 weeks has resulted in burn out, mistakes, and loss of desire to be in the job anymore. This puts more pressure on those staying further agravating the situation and making it spiral larger. It also puts the situation for other medical treatments in jeopardy, delaying or even cancelling treatments that are required to save lives.


I have heard this. I have a bit of a hard time believing it though. I can see lots of them going on stress leave - but to walk away from a profession that can, even normally, pay extremely well for which they have taken much training, to go and work for $16 an hour at a call center just doesn't make sense.


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## allthumbs56

zztomato said:


> A vaccine is not some kind of magic bullet. They work as intended. If you remember what you are told every year about the flu shot- may prevent you from getting the flu and will lessen the chance of severe outcomes if you do get the flu.
> Those who are getting Covid right now are mostly unvaccinated.
> Here's the highlights from a recent report by Public Health Ontario;
> Since the COVID-19 vaccination program began on December 14, 2020 and up to August 21, 2021, a total of 10,712,555 individuals in Ontario received at least one dose of vaccine including 9,756,368 individuals who are fully vaccinated. Of these individuals, only 18,051 became partially vaccinated cases and 3,782 became breakthrough (i.e. fully vaccinated) cases (Table 1).7
> • The number of post-vaccination cases declines dramatically as time from vaccination increases (Figure 1).
> • Only 9.3% of cases post-vaccination occurred 14 or more days after dose 2 administration and are considered breakthrough cases (Table 1).
> • The rate of COVID-19 in unvaccinated individuals is higher compared to fully vaccinated individuals. This trend has remained consistent over time (Figure 2).
> • In the past 30 days, unvaccinated individuals were approximately 8.0 times more likely to become a case of COVID-19 compared to fully vaccinated individuals (Figure 2).
> • Among individuals 60 years of age or older, the rate of COVID-19-related hospitalizations was higher among unvaccinated individuals compared to fully vaccinated individuals. This trend has remained consistent over time (Figure 5).
> • In the past 30 days, unvaccinated adults 60 years of age or older were approximately 22.8 times more likely to be hospitalized due to COVID-19 compared to fully vaccinated adults 60 years of age and older (Figure 5).
> • Trends in partially vaccinated and breakthrough cases are a reflection of both trends in vaccine administration (increasing number of doses administered over time) and trends in COVID-19 incidence (Figure 3).
> • Unvaccinated cases accounted for the majority (94.8%) of COVID-19 cases reported since December 14, 2020 and up to August 21, 2021, with breakthrough cases accounted for only 0.9% (Figure 4).
> • Similar trends are observed for hospitalizations and deaths, with unvaccinated cases accounting for 92.4% of hospitalizations and 92.1% of deaths and breakthrough cases accounting for 0.9% of hospitalizations and 1.3% of deaths (Figure 4).
> • Between February 3, 2021 (when routine mutation testing was implemented) and August 21, 2021, trends in variants of concern (VOCs) among vaccinated cases reflect trends in VOCs among all cases, with B.1.1.7 (Alpha) being the dominant strain from approximately March to June, and an increasing number of B.1.617.2 (Delta) reporting since May (Figure 7, Table 5). For additional information on VOCs among all COVID-19 cases, refer to the COVID-19 Daily Epidemiological Summary. 8


I agree that vaccines work. The one concern I have with the above numbers is that as of December 14th, everybody was unvaccinated so those numbers going back that far are skewed. Anything going back 30 days or so is a lot more meaningful to me.


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## Jim DaddyO

allthumbs56 said:


> What's amazing is that this marketing strategy proceeded approval of the first vaccine (Pfizer) by a month.


Not really, they were well aware that it was coming. It's not hard to figure out that some people would have mixed or negative feelings about it. There's always some people that will push back against what is good for society, or themselves, just because it's been recommended. For instance, how many people don't put money in an RRSP? How many people smoke? (me). How many people eat bad food or have other unhealthy habits? (me again). How many people stay in bad relationships?


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## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> but then you can't sue your surgeon if he botches your appendectomy either


There's a reason that they have malpractice insurance, isn't there?


allthumbs56 said:


> Seriously, if you're still a "hold out" at this point I don't imagine a visit from Jesus in a burning chariot and a peer-reviewed commandment carved into a stone tablet is gonna change your mind.


I'm not anti-vax. I'm part of the 'wait and see' crowd. There's not enough valid information for me to make comfortable decision .. yet.




__





Salk Institute study shows “spike” protein used in vaccine causes severe vascular damage to healthy cells







www.cracknewz.com


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## JBFairthorne

Fingers crossed that you don’t get sick before you acquire the info you need. Sincerely.

I was in the same boat. I was waiting to see AND waiting until I could just get my shot as a walk-in. I figured, let the people that really want it get taken care of first while I see if they turn into zombies or not. So far so good.


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## sulphur

JBFairthorne said:


> Fingers crossed that you don’t get sick before you acquire the info you need. Sincerely.
> 
> I was in the same boat. I was waiting to see AND waiting until I could just get my shot as a walk-in. I figured, let the people that really want it get taken care of first while I see if they turn into zombies or not. So far so good.


That's pretty well what I did. A mobile clinic twice, in and out.


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## mhammer

gtrguy said:


> Those wacky Americans. Gotta protect the big corporations! To be honest I try not to pay too much attention to the goings on south of the border.


Keep in mind that a) there was an international request for a "rush" on vaccine development, b) the FDA scrutinized it and gave approval for "emergency use", and only recently gave full approval, and c) this was going to be used by an awful lot of people (and hopefully not a lot of awful people). If it was your product that you'd sunk many millions into, in order to respond to a worldwide emergency and requests from the highest levels of multiple governments, and it was rushed into emergency use, wouldn't you want some legal protection from those who had seen one too many "I was in a rear-ender, and Herb got me two million dollars for my auto injury!" ads on TV? I know if it was me, I'd be saying "I'm happy to be able to put in all that overtime and provide you this on such remarkably short notice, but if it's going to be put into widespread emergency use, by government clinics, AND you want nearly everyone to take it, as opposed to casual ads for 'Ask your doctor if <vaccine> is right for you', I'd like a little protection from liability for individual claims. I'm confident in the safety of the product. I'm less confident that, in this scramble, it would always be used as directed, with appropriate cautions, or that nobody will try to take advantage of the situation."

As well, keep in mind that if the vaccine did turn out to be nasty, even though individuals couldn't sue for damages, the federal government that provided all that seed money and financial incentives to develop and produce the vaccine, would certainly be gunning for the company. The drug company wouldn't have to contend with your nickel-and-dime lawyer, but they _would_ have to contend with the Department of Justice.


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## gtrguy

My post (which still exists as quoted in the above post). Was deleted for being “political”. I guess someone must have taken offence and whined to the mods. Was my comment really political in nature? It wasn’t intended to be, more like social commentary but I’m sure someone could have been offended. Thin skin I guess lol.


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## mhammer

Well it sure wasn't me. You can tell from my own comment that I didn't agree with you. But I'm not outraged or offended by what you said.

Of course, it raises an interesting question: is a deliberately nonpolitical response to a post someone may have objected to, that includes a _segment_ of the objected-to post, worthy of being deleted because it quotes the "offensive" post? I suppose it would depend on how much of the deleted post is quoted, and which part. Still, an interesting question. Some ground-rules or basic common-sense principles from the mods would be nice, so that the innocent don't get dragged in.


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## gtrguy

mhammer said:


> Well it sure wasn't me. You can tell from my own comment that I didn't agree with you. But I'm not outraged or offended by what you said.
> 
> Of course, it raises an interesting question: is a deliberately nonpolitical response to a post someone may have objected to, that includes a _segment_ of the objected-to post, worthy of being deleted because it quotes the "offensive" post? I suppose it would depend on how much of the deleted post is quoted, and which part. Still, an interesting question. Some ground-rules or basic common-sense principles from the mods would be nice, so that the innocent don't get dragged in.


Agreed! The quoted bit was my whole post. I don’t see the problem...
Also Mark, I didn’t intend to suggest you reported it- the thought didn’t even cross my mind. I know you’re a better man than that
Strange days on this forum indeed. Things have definitely changed around here over the last while.


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## laristotle

gtrguy said:


> Thin skin I guess lol.





gtrguy said:


> Strange days on this forum indeed. Things have definitely changed around here over the last while.


A while back, I asked the mods and GCAmin1 who this person is and no one seems to know.


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## SWLABR

laristotle said:


> A while back, I asked the mods and GCAmin1 who this person is and no one seems to know.
> View attachment 379637


Really?? I think it's glaringly obvious who this is.


----------



## laristotle

SWLABR said:


> Really?? I think it's glaringly obvious who this is.


I don't disagree. I sometimes wonder if Allain weaseled his way back in? lol
I get a chuckle at how they remain anonymous and post that in the 'alerts' section instead of 'conversation', where one can respond to them.


----------



## terminalvertigo

mhammer said:


> Some ground-rules or basic common-sense principles from the mods would be nice, so that the innocent don't get dragged in.


When I trim threads, I end up deleting quoted posts as well, because to me, its silly to cook a post, then leave it up right underneath as a quote.

what "ground rules" are you having trouble understanding? The mods are more than willing to help


----------



## isoneedacoffee

laristotle said:


> I'm not anti-vax. I'm part of the 'wait and see' crowd. There's not enough valid information for me to make comfortable decision .. yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Salk Institute study shows “spike” protein used in vaccine causes severe vascular damage to healthy cells
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cracknewz.com


Countless scientists are saying the vaccine is safe, and you provided a link to a site called "cracknewz"? I guess we can all have opinions, but I'm not sure how one can read anything from that site and believe it operates according to basic journalism standards. I actually went later to take a look at the study question. Here's their conclusion, which you can read at the end: 

*"This conclusion suggests that vaccination-generated antibody and/or exogenous antibody against S protein not only protects the host from SARS-CoV-2 infectivity but also inhibits S protein-imposed endothelial injury."*

And here's an article that breaks down the problem with misinformation and the twisting of truth, focusing in that article you cited: COVID-19 Vaccines and Spike Proteins


----------



## gtrguy

terminalvertigo said:


> When I trim threads, I end up deleting quoted posts as well, because to me, its silly to cook a post, then leave it up right underneath as a quote.
> 
> what "ground rules" are you having trouble understanding? The mods are more than willing to help


Awesome! Could you explain what was wrong with my post?


----------



## laristotle

isoneedacoffee said:


> And here's an article that breaks down the problem with misinformation and the twisting of truth, focusing in that article you cited: COVID-19 Vaccines and Spike Proteins


_Their claims of a looming vaccine catastrophe brought about by vaccine-induced spike proteins fails to consider that the spike protein of vaccines is different than the natural form; that its engineered shape prevents activation; and that multiple elements confine spike protein expression to a highly localized collection of cells whose purpose is to activate the immunity vaccines are designed to produce. _

Thanks for the link. This is why I think it's important that open dialogue not be suppressed so that opinions/information can be shared/dissected/corrected.


----------



## mhammer

JBFairthorne said:


> Then I must have imagined all the talk about how this vaccine was the way out of the pandemic. If it was why are number still growing? Lots vaccinated here now….numbers still going up.
> 
> My point wasn’t to disparage the vaccine or to suggest that these alternative treatments actually work. The fact is, nothing is really working effectively now, despite what the powers that be are trying to make you believe. If it was, we wouldn’t be talking about it.


But it IS working. It just isn't working as quickly, miraculously, flawlessly, and problem-free as we would like. Again, I'll note that Ottawa has a fully-vaccinated rate of 81% (of everyone 12 and older) and climbing. With a population larger than that of Saskatchewan or South Dakota, both of which have much lower vaccination rates, our hospitalization and ICU rates from Covid are in the single digits. Daily case counts have "climbed" from low single digits to 30s and 40s. The per/100,000 rate is a small fraction of what is seen elsewhere. We reported the first death in 2 months the other day.

A person, and a community, still has to work *with* the vaccine. Vaccines don't and can't replace other similarly-proven public health measures. As I've said here repeatedly, until the case counts are the same as what I'd be comfortable with if they were polio, tuberculosis, smallpox, measles, ebola, flesh-eating disease, and lots of other things that still exist, but are rare enough that there is no one to catch them from, I will be masking and distancing. 

Even a border collie knows you can't move a herd by standing in one spot and barking at it. You move around and approach it from multiple sides. Some things require a multi-faceted, multi-dimensional strategy to change.


----------



## laristotle

mhammer said:


> It just isn't working as quickly, miraculously, flawlessly, and *problem-free* as we would like.
> 
> The per/100,000 rate is a small fraction of what is seen elsewhere.


Maybe many, including me, are not ready to risk being part of that small fraction?

ie; Here's a bowl full of 100,000 M&M's, knowing that one or more of them may be poisoned. Would you still risk it and help yourself to them?


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> I have heard this. I have a bit of a hard time believing it though. I can see lots of them going on stress leave - but to walk away from a profession that can, even normally, pay extremely well for which they have taken much training, to go and work for $16 an hour at a call center just doesn't make sense.


As I heard yesterday, in a number of cases, those "walking away" were approaching retirement age and adopted an "I'm getting too old for this s**t" attitude, deciding to retire early. In other instances, these were people who were nursing as a part-time job. If you're trying to raise a family, and can "afford" to work half time, but your employer now says "If you want to keep those 25hrs, we need you to work 40 until this passes", you reconsider how much you need those _specific_ 25hrs.

There are different levels/credentials of nursing. Even if one is in the lowest-credentialed, lowest-paid category, and only working 25hrs a week, someone who works full and overtime for more pay is depending on you, and in your absence their job becomes harder. I have no idea what the attrition rate is. Many organizations experience annual attrition rates of 10% or higher. When an organization's functioning depends on informed cooperation between team members who know and trust each other to act quickly and efficiently when urgency is required, I can imagine even a 3% attrition rate can bugger things up.


----------



## SWLABR

laristotle said:


> ie; Here's a bowl full of 100,000 M&M's, knowing that one or more of them may be poisoned. Would you still risk it and help yourself to them?


Not a fair analogy (in my opinion) because, as delicious as M&M's are, they are not something that can protect the vast majority if you personally eat just one. (and who can eat just one??). I see your point, but the idea of the vaccine is to get as many protected as possible, to then protect others. It's supposed to be perpetual. And the gains are supposed to outweigh the risks. From what I've read/seen/heard, they still do. (the AZ jab notwithstanding) 

I am (relatively) healthy... and could most likely survive from COVID, but my dad couldn't. My mother in-law couldn't. I did it more for them than myself. 

I was not first in line though. I waited to see if there was a Zombie Apocalypse. 

I did not grow a third nipple. 



The tail is pretty handy though!


----------



## isoneedacoffee

laristotle said:


> Maybe many, including me, are not ready to risk being part of that small fraction?
> 
> ie; Here's a bowl full of 100,000 M&M's, knowing that one or more of them may be poisoned. Would you still risk it and help yourself to them?


----------



## mhammer

laristotle said:


> Maybe many, including me, are not ready to risk being part of that small fraction?
> 
> ie; Here's a bowl full of 100,000 M&M's, knowing that one or more of them may be poisoned. Would you still risk it and help yourself to them?


Let me ask you, Do you take any medications, prescribed or over-the-counter? Do you eat any food that uses additives of any sort, whether to aid in production or preserve freshness? Do you *know* what _their_ side-effect rate is? Do you know how much research has gone into them in order to get approval? Is it the same exhaustiveness that people are insisting on for these vaccines, simply because of internet rumour? You likely don't know, because these things feel "normal", so few, outside of the paranoid, would look into it.

Hell, do you consume any alcoholic beverages? Do you ever drive on a highway? Do you smoke? Do you like bacon or donuts?

I'm not accusing you of anything untoward or stupid. Human perception of risk is a bizarre thing, and is often assessed in isolation. Context-specific, rather than relative to other known sources of risk, and generally with respect to their mental "availability" (how easily a caution/fear-provoking example comes to mind). Prior to this pox, how many hundreds of thousands of airplanes took off and landed without incident on a daily basis? But if we have one crash in a year rubbed in our noses with repeated news footage shown and articles written, we immediately perceive air travel as unsafe. Some doofus gets shot in a locale where there are nightclubs, and even though it may have been the first and only for years, we stay away from that area because we feel it unsafe.

I think people ARE wise to be mindful of negative effects of any medication or treatment. And I certainly don't expect regular folks to comb the clinical literature before making any decisions. The error lies in not weighing costs and benefits, and in not comparing *across* sources of risk.

At this time, in this place, we know the odds are VERY good that a person will eventually be exposed to this rather nasty variant of this virus. Masking, distancing, and hand-washing _will_ help, but pathogens can sometimes get past that. Would you rather your immune system have a head start in defending against that, or would you rather have it do a cold start from square one? Would you rather have a loaded weapon ready against an invader, or would you rather be busy figuring out how to assemble that weapon and shopping for ammunition? As I've indicated before, we know this variant replicates VERY fast. Fast enough that even a fully-vaccinated person can have a substantial viral load before their immune response kicks into high gear. That has been the basis for breakthrough infections. But because vaccinated persons have a stronger immune response, they only get a little sick and not hospitalized.


----------



## terminalvertigo

gtrguy said:


> Awesome! Could you explain what was wrong with my post?


either:
You mentioned the states, crazy Americans etc, and in the current climate someone took it as political and reported it.
OR
You had quoted a post that was deleted.. so that mod deleted your post as well.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> But it IS working. It just isn't working as quickly, miraculously, flawlessly, and problem-free as we would like. Again, I'll note that Ottawa has a fully-vaccinated rate of 81% (of everyone 12 and older) and climbing. With a population larger than that of Saskatchewan or South Dakota, both of which have much lower vaccination rates, our hospitalization and ICU rates from Covid are in the single digits. Daily case counts have "climbed" from low single digits to 30s and 40s. The per/100,000 rate is a small fraction of what is seen elsewhere. We reported the first death in 2 months the other day.
> 
> A person, and a community, still has to work *with* the vaccine. Vaccines don't and can't replace other similarly-proven public health measures. As I've said here repeatedly, until the case counts are the same as what I'd be comfortable with if they were polio, tuberculosis, smallpox, measles, ebola, flesh-eating disease, and lots of other things that still exist, but are rare enough that there is no one to catch them from, I will be masking and distancing.
> 
> Even a border collie knows you can't move a herd by standing in one spot and barking at it. You move around and approach it from multiple sides. Some things require a multi-faceted, multi-dimensional strategy to change.


I like to look at my local numbers - I have a hard time thinking that the Niagara Region (and my friend who updates patient records) is part of the "World Conspiracy". This is what my local numbers tell me:


12 patients are currently in our local hospital with Covid. All 12 are unvaccinated.
Unvaccinated people are *8.4 times more likely* to get Covid and/or pass it onward
Unvaccinated people who catch Covid are *27 times more likely* to require hospitalization
Unvaccinated people who catch Covid are *42 times more likely* to end up in ICU.
I have seen this data myself and confirmed the calculations from that data.

On the grand scale, over 5.5 billion people have been vaccinated and in a year have not sprouted wings or third eyes or had trouble going to the bathroom. People who still refuse to get vaccinated - whatever their excuse are just not gonna get vaccinated. Several people close to me refuse. Their complete lack of logic has me dumbfounded.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

allthumbs56 said:


> People who still refuse to get vaccinated - whatever their excuse are just not gonna get vaccinated. Several people close to me refuse. Their complete lack of logic has me dumbfounded.


Elise Gravel, a famous children's book author from Montreal I think has put a great, positive, spin on this. And given this some real context in terms of people now starting to identify with vaccination refusal. She says:

_Vous refusiez le vaccin et ce refus fait maintenant partie de votre identité? Vous avez envie de changer d'idée mais vous avez peur de perdre la face? Moi, si vous le faites, je vais vous admirer, promis. Plus encore que j'admire ceux qui ont accepté le vaccin dès le départ.
Changer d'idée sur le vaccin, ce n'est pas une admission de défaite. C'est un processus difficile, surtout dans le contexte actuel. C'est fort, c'est courageux, c'est généreux. Merci.









[Facebook auto translation, with my corrections]
You refused the vaccine and that refusal is now part of your identity? Feel like changing your mind but afraid of losing face? If you do, I will admire you, I promise. More so I admire those who accepted the vaccine from the start.
Changing your mind about the vaccine is not an admission of defeat. This is a difficult process especially in the current context. It's strong, it's brave, it's generous. Thank you.







_



__ https://www.facebook.com/elisegarnotte/posts/375049273976774


----------



## Jim DaddyO

allthumbs56 said:


> over 5.5 billion people have been vaccinated and in a year have not sprouted wings or third eyes or had trouble going to the bathroom.


It enlarged my organ and my wife's boobs are firmer and they seem larger too. Our sex drive has been increased and we're making out like we did in our 20's again.
.
.
.
see how easy it would have been to market this?


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> It enlarged my organ and increased my sex drive.
> .
> .
> .
> see how easy it would have been to market this?


Market "this" or market "you"?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

allthumbs56 said:


> Market "this" or market "you"?



Yes


----------



## Adcandour

anyone see this from the former vp of Pfizer?


Michael Yeadon | Full Interview | Planet Lockdown


----------



## allthumbs56

Adcandour said:


> anyone see this from the former vp of Pfizer?
> 
> 
> Michael Yeadon | Full Interview | Planet Lockdown


I've read some of his stuff before. He's kinda been accused of spreading false information:






Michael Yeadon - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Adcandour

allthumbs56 said:


> I've read some of his stuff before. He's kinda been accused of spreading false information:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Michael Yeadon - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> en.wikipedia.org


yeah, but how qualified is this guy...

he's extremely pro-vax, rich as hell (doesn't want or need), and intuitively seems sincere...

Admittedly, I find this information really confusing.


----------



## allthumbs56

Adcandour said:


> yeah, but how qualified is this guy...
> 
> he's extremely pro-vax, rich as hell (doesn't want or need), and intuitively seems sincere...
> 
> Admittedly, I find this information really confusing.


I'd say he was better qualified than me.  

It's just that he was very positive about the vaccine initially and a lot of what he once said or believed has turned out to blunt his optimism. I haven't kept up to-date - does he accept the current results or does he not believe them? Being a scientist and not believing the emerging data would be pretty self-defeating.


----------



## mhammer

I have too much to do to watch the full 57 minutes, but the few minutes I could tolerate were, in his words, "rubbish". He challenges the infectiousness of asymptomatic people, and challenges the official cause of death for a big share of cases.

As for his qualifications, by virtue of being former Pfizer VP, note that such positions are typically not held by practicing scientists but rather by good managers. Does his capacity to make lots of money for Pfizer shareholders on boner pills and drugs for non-communicable disorders make him a better virologist than Fauci? I doubt it. His message is certainly more palatable and _desirable_ to a lot of people, but then that's not necessarily in their best interests.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> I have too much to do to watch the full 57 minutes, but the few minutes I could tolerate were, in his words, "rubbish". He challenges the infectiousness of asymptomatic people, and challenges the official cause of death for a big share of cases.
> 
> As for his qualifications, by virtue of being former Pfizer VP, note that such positions are typically not held by practicing scientists but rather by good managers. Does his capacity to make lots of money for Pfizer shareholders on boner pills and drugs for non-communicable disorders make him a better virologist than Fauci? I doubt it. His message is certainly more palatable and _desirable_ to a lot of people, but then that's not necessarily in their best interests.


It's been 10 years since he was at Pfizer. I really don't have a read on the guy - some describe him as an anti-vax hero yet what I read suggest he was quite pro-vax. Personally I don't think anything I've read of his beliefs has held any water with time so he's either a scientist that adjust his mind to emerging data or he's a crackpot. My brief reading tilts toward the latter.


----------



## tomee2

allthumbs56 said:


> It's been 10 years since he was at Pfizer. I really don't have a read on the guy - some describe him as an anti-vax hero yet what I read suggest he was quite pro-vax. Personally I don't think anything I've read of his beliefs has held any water with time so he's either a scientist that adjust his mind to emerging data or he's a crackpot. My brief reading tilts toward the latter.


I think there was a recent podcast or something on NPR about him...the latter was their conclusion. His former coworkers describe his current comments as completely out of character for him.


----------



## Grainslayer

Adcandour said:


> anyone see this from the former vp of Pfizer?
> 
> 
> Michael Yeadon | Full Interview | Planet Lockdown


I just watched it..I think it only added to my current confusion/anxiety/stress of the unknown🤯


----------



## allthumbs56

tomee2 said:


> I think there was a recent podcast or something on NPR about him...the latter was their conclusion. His former coworkers describe his current comments as completely out if character for him.


3% of Mankind is probably certifiable - and that includes a pretty good smattering of doctors, lawyers, professors, business owners, nurses, janitors, and politicians to boot.


----------



## Guitar101

Adcandour said:


> anyone see this from the former vp of Pfizer?
> 
> 
> Michael Yeadon | Full Interview | Planet Lockdown


Perhaps "former" VP says it all.


----------



## mhammer

Guitar101 said:


> Perhaps "former" VP says it all.


I wouldn't read too much into that, unless there are conspicuous reasons for his formerness. People leave high-paying jobs all the time...largely because when they pay high enough you don't need _that stinking job_ anymore.  Nah, judge him on the basis of the foolishness of his arguments.


----------



## tomee2

mhammer said:


> I wouldn't read too much into that, unless there are conspicuous reasons for his formerness. People leave high-paying jobs all the time...largely because when they pay high enough you don't need _that stinking job_ anymore.  Nah, judge him on the basis of the foolishness of his arguments.


Agreed. What i heard in the podcast was that the research division he was leading was dropped by Pfizer, he then started his own company, which was then bought up, then the drug that new company was working on came up short in trials and it too was shut down. He made money from it all but no grand discoveries or Nobel prizes.


----------



## mhammer

It's funny. People have such hate for "big pharma". When we see instances like Purdue, that threw gas on the opioid fire, I can understand that hate. At the same time, you have to wonder just who would have had the resources to throw at vaccine development. And more importantly, who would have had the production capacity to provide the sheer volume of vaccine needed, with the degree of quality-control required? There are reasons to hate them, yes, but there are also things we rely on them for, and appreciate them being able to do. I don't see many hating them for developing boner pills.

Just reminded me of one of the jokes in Drew Carey's book "Dirty Jokes and Beer" ( Dirty Jokes and Beer: Stories of the Unrefined: Carey, Drew: 9780786889396: Books - Amazon.ca ). Can't repeat it here because it's dirty. Not Gilbert Gottfried "Aristocrats" dirty, but still unsuitable for posting. That said, the punch line is "You gotta take the bad with the good". I'll leave it to you to flip through the pages at Indigo/Chapters and read it.


----------



## Adcandour

im pro vax, but Im always suspect of big industry...it makes sense to me to be leary.

its just info like this that boggles me...it confuses the shit out of me. this one's much shorter...and very recent:


----------



## Guitar101

mhammer said:


> I wouldn't read too much into that, unless there are conspicuous reasons for his formerness. People leave high-paying jobs all the time...largely because when they pay high enough you don't need _that stinking job_ anymore.  Nah, judge him on the basis of the foolishness of his arguments.


But Mark. Then I would have to watch the video to do that and I tend to stay away from watching or reading other peoples opinion of the covid19 vaccine. 😷


----------



## Adcandour

tomee2 said:


> Agreed. What i heard in the podcast was that the research division he was leading was dropped by Pfizer, he then started his own company, which was then bought up, then the drug that new company was working on came up short in trials and it too was shut down. He made money from it all but no grand discoveries or Nobel prizes.


my father didn't get a nobel prize in engineering, couldn't fix one company here in canada, but move to the states and turned around that one.

he stopped engineering at the first one and moved into management when moving to the states. 

now he's sought after for fixing fuckups for most the major auto companies, because he's amazing at what he does.

I wouldn't use your criteria to judge someone's credibility. mark criticizing his actual argument is the better route.


----------



## mhammer

Adcandour said:


> my father didn't get a nobel prize in engineering, couldn't fix one company here in canada, but move to the states and turned around that one.
> 
> he stopped engineering at the first one and moved into management when moving to the states.
> 
> now he's sought after for fixing fuckups for most the major auto companies, because he's amazing at what he does.
> 
> I wouldn't use your criteria to judge someone's credibility. mark criticizing his actual argument is the better route.


I was part of a few working groups, during my government stay, that were concerned with addressing the challenge of filling manager positions in science and I.T. streams. It can be hard to do. Many people who enter STEM work are really more interested in the actual technical, investigative and R&D work, than in pushing paper, working on budgets, and managing people. Some may be interested in that sort of position, with its pay increase and authority, but clearly lack the vision and/or "soft skills" to do it (I.T. is often at a greater disadvantage there). And some who actually have those skills and vision may simply be disinterested in anything that tears them away from the lab or workbench. In academe, plenty of faculty spend entire long careers studiously avoiding administrative positions, like departmental chair, or dean. So organizations are often left/stuck with a small pool of appropriate people to draw from, increasing the risks of hiring the wrong person for that role, or necessitating outsourcing. Like teaching, medicine, and even rock drummers, there are more management positions to fill than there are people who are truly cut out for it. And of course, one is always depending on the vision and wisdom of others (which can include boards of directors) to recognize when someone is or isn't "cut out for it". It happens.


----------



## mhammer

Adcandour said:


> im pro vax, but Im always suspect of big industry...it makes sense to me to be leary.


That's fine. The question is: what criteria or evidence do you require, or find sufficient, to set your leariness aside? Is such evidence reasonably obtainable, or does the leariness simply persist because it's "big industry"? And what big industries merit suspicion, and in what ways? For instance, Apotex is a big frigging company. Huge. They make generic drugs, as well as lots of money. The greater affordability of such generics lowers the costs for governments and individuals, which increases their availability. Should I be leary of them by virtue of their size and the fact they are part of the pharmaceutical industry, or does their manufacture of generics dub them pure as the driven snow?

I find that to be the most exasperating thing about the conspiracy-minded (NOT pointing any finger at yourself). It's the degree to which the narrative such persons adopt is often immune to any sort of contrary evidence. In Karl Popper's terms, their argument and belief is not "falsifiable", and all too often the conspiracy-minded will change the narrative in order to keep it safe from contrary evidence.

People are weird.


----------



## HighNoon

Adcandour said:


> im pro vax, but Im always suspect of big industry...it makes sense to me to be leary.
> 
> its just info like this that boggles me...it confuses the shit out of me. this one's much shorter...and very recent:


A calm and measured assessment of the situation at hand. Evolutionary selection is an interesting topic, especially in regards to our present world wide contagion. So the jab's effect begins to wane approx. six months in (this was not in the original brochure...but then how could they know, as it's an experimental treatment without long term data). One could assume it would continue on that pace, exponentially. Should you get a booster shot? Is more of the same better, when taking into account the narrow immunity the present one infers. Dose response in vaccines is not linear....more isn't always better. It could help or it might lower immune response. Are we by vaccinating more and more people, with the present 'leaky' vaccine, only creating a potential firestorm of negative results across the world's population. These and many other discussions are ones we should be having.


----------



## allthumbs56

HighNoon said:


> A calm and measured assessment of the situation at hand. Evolutionary selection is an interesting topic, especially in regards to our present world wide contagion. So the jab's effect begins to wane approx. six months in (this was not in the original brochure...but then how could they know, as it's an experimental treatment without long term data). One could assume it would continue on that pace, exponentially. Should you get a booster shot? Is more of the same better, when taking into account the narrow immunity the present one infers. Dose response in vaccines is not linear....more isn't always better. It could help or it might lower immune response. Are we by vaccinating more and more people, with the present 'leaky' vaccine, only creating a potential firestorm of negative results across the world's population. These and many other discussions are ones we should be having.


I got something completely different from that video. The first was that "vaccines leak" is nothing new nor is it that they mutate. His last view - that we are successfully treating covid I would whole-heartily disagree with - I'd love a few examples of that.

Funny how two people can get a different take-away from the same thing.


----------



## HighNoon

allthumbs56 said:


> I got something completely different from that video. The first was that "vaccines leak" is nothing new nor is it that they mutate. His last view - that we are successfully treating covid I would whole-heartily disagree with - I'd love a few examples of that.
> 
> Funny how two people can get a different take-away from the same thing.


Yes, vaccines by their nature have different leakability (I know that's not a word, but it sounds good). Measles, smallpox are fairly stable....coronaviruses are not. His assessment is that by mass vaccinations during a pandemic, we are giving the virus the challenge and the means by which to escape. That is to say, by presenting a narrow immune response (the subunit of only part of the spike protein), we are giving the virus the means by which to adapt, and thereby escape and evolve/mutate. If you look at the genome differences between the original virus and the delta variant you can see this. When he talks about successfully treating covid he's talking about the doctors who are using the FLCCC treatment protocols. You can go their website to see their at home, in hospital and post hospital treatment plans. And by way of reference these are the ones who brought drugs like dexamethasone into play, in the days when only supplementary care was being given (aspirin, oxygen etc.)


----------



## tonewoody

My takeaway from the vid was "we have data to review and thoughts about improving the vaccine(s)". 

Good call...


----------



## HighNoon

tonewoody said:


> My takeaway from the vid was "we have data to review and thoughts about improving the vaccine(s)".
> 
> Good call...


So you missed out the part about a 'pandemic of variants'.....which will cause the vaccines to be less and less effective.


----------



## tonewoody

HighNoon said:


> So you missed out the part about a 'pandemic of variants'.....which will cause the vaccines to be less and less effective.


You mean the "spin"? Yeah, I caught that.


----------



## keto

HighNoon said:


> So you missed out the part about a 'pandemic of variants'.....which will cause the vaccines to be less and less effective.


There is nothing shocking about that. We were told very early on that a successful vaccine for a coronavirus had never been developed, because variants. Vaccines don't cause variants. They give us a new flu vax every year to deal with variants.


----------



## HighNoon

keto said:


> There is nothing shocking about that. We were told very early on that a successful vaccine for a coronavirus had never been developed, because variants. Vaccines don't cause variants. They give us a new flu vax every year to deal with variants.


Big difference between the yearly flu vaccine (which is given before the flu season, and there's a reason for that) and the present gene therapy 'vaccine'. The flu vaccine is the best estimate based on previous studies and collection of data of what's coming next. And their effectiveness can be anywhere from 20% to 60% effective. This gene therapy vaccine being used presently, has a very narrow immunity profile, and by that quality, is in effect causing variants. Listen to the discussion again.


----------



## allthumbs56

HighNoon said:


> Yes, vaccines by their nature have different leakability (I know that's not a word, but it sounds good). Measles, smallpox are fairly stable....coronaviruses are not. His assessment is that by mass vaccinations during a pandemic, we are giving the virus the challenge and the means by which to escape. That is to say, by presenting a narrow immune response (the subunit of only part of the spike protein), we are giving the virus the means by which to adapt, and thereby escape and evolve/mutate. If you look at the genome differences between the original virus and the delta variant you can see this. When he talks about successfully treating covid he's talking about the doctors who are using the FLCCC treatment protocols. You can go their website to see their at home, in hospital and post hospital treatment plans. And by way of reference these are the ones who brought drugs like dexamethasone into play, in the days when only supplementary care was being given (aspirin, oxygen etc.)


You got all of that from the video? I watched again and still didn't get near as much - I guess I'm a poor student 😕 

I don't know much about the FLCCC but don't they kind of operate at the "fringe"? Like, general medical practice isn't currently pushing their solutions, right?

I would normally ask what you would do differently. Most vaccine "hesitants" would say, border closure, lockdowns, etc. I think we have enough proof that hiding and waiting for this to resolve itself isn't gonna work. I assume that's not your proposal - but that you're more in the FLCCC camp.

I rely on my local stats, like - if you are unvaccinated you are 12 times more likely to catch and transmit covid. I'm a numbers guy - and those are numbers that tell a story.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

HighNoon said:


> Should you get a booster shot? Is more of the same better, when taking into account the narrow immunity the present one infers. Dose response in vaccines is not linear....more isn't always better. It could help or it might lower immune response. Are we by vaccinating more and more people, with the present 'leaky' vaccine, only creating a potential firestorm of negative results across the world's population. *These and many other discussions are ones we should be having*.


I'm not sure what you mean by "we" here, but scientists do what scientists do which is review data in a scientific, peer-reviewed, responsible, way. Here on guitarscanada, we can spout our opinions but opinions matter very little in the face of the scientific truth. So, of the questions you posed, I actually don't think we need to discuss anything at all. Let's leave that to the scientists.By doing so we respect their expertise and trust that these questions are being looked into by a whole network of worldwide scientists. By not doing so - and trying to tackle these questions ourselves in a really uninformed way - we actually look foolish.


----------



## HighNoon

isoneedacoffee said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "we" here, but scientists do what scientists do which is review data in a scientific, peer-reviewed, responsible, way. Here on guitarscanada, we can spout our opinions but opinions matter very little in the face of the scientific truth. So, of the questions you posed, I actually don't think we need to discuss anything at all. Let's leave that to the scientists.By doing so we respect their expertise and trust that these questions are being looked into by a whole network of worldwide scientists. By not doing so - and trying to tackle these questions ourselves in a really uninformed way - we actually look foolish.


When you go in for an operation you discuss with your doctor what's going to happen. The more informed you are on the procedure, the better you understand the risks involved. Being injected with an experimental drug, involves risks. Now they may be minimal, moderate, or serious. Only by trying to understand them do we gain a greater knowledge....and if you can read a scientific paper, which is possible for anyone with a little work, you can benefit and be able to make an informed decision.


----------



## HighNoon

allthumbs56 said:


> You got all of that from the video? I watched again and still didn't get near as much - I guess I'm a poor student 😕
> 
> I don't know much about the FLCCC but don't they kind of operate at the "fringe"? Like, general medical practice isn't currently pushing their solutions, right?
> 
> I would normally ask what you would do differently. Most vaccine "hesitants" would say, border closure, lockdowns, etc. I think we have enough proof that hiding and waiting for this to resolve itself isn't gonna work. I assume that's not your proposal - but that you're more in the FLCCC camp.
> 
> I rely on my local stats, like - if you are unvaccinated you are 12 times more likely to catch and transmit covid. I'm a numbers guy - and those are numbers that tell a story.


You are correct about the efficacy of the vaccine available today. It greatly increases your chance of survival. However that number (the catching it part) is diminishing as shown in other countries that were ahead of the curve with inoculations. As to transmission....those who are vaccinated can carry and transmit the same viral load as the unvaccinated. This is starting to play out in those other countries. As time moves on it will become apparent in Canada. 

FLCCC camp? They've successfully treated many thousands of patients......I know people wanted Ted Nugent to die, but he got to them in time (even though he was at about the day six mark) and recovered. Joe Rogan....another public figure used their treatment and is doing fine. Their treatment is very 'scientific' ....they are front line doctors in the middle of it every day. If that's fringe, because they use safe drugs like ivermectin as part of a treatment protocol, then it's a sad day for the state of medical practice. 

What would I do? Early treatment is critical. Sending people home after testing positive for a know pathogen, with the directive to come back later if you're really sick is ....what....insane? Secondly I would have home test kits available to everyone....this can be cheaply done, and could give you a leg up on early treatment. And stop all this case nonsense. Stop the fear porn....it serves no useful purpose.


----------



## allthumbs56

HighNoon said:


> And stop all this case nonsense. Stop the fear porn....it serves no useful purpose.


"Fear Porn"? Numbers and statistics? No useful purpose?

Joe Rogan's OK though. Got it


----------



## mhammer

This more recent discussion is why I keep emphasizing the need to continue to mask, distance, and keep things and hands clean, until we've run out of people to catch it from. Relying exclusively on vaccines WILL get us into, and keep us, in trouble.

Keep in mind that development of an effective vaccine involves balancing the degree of specificity and generality. You want it to provoke an immune response to things that shouldn't be in your body, and ignore things that should. So what characteristics are there that are unique to something that shouldn't be in your body? There was some talk a year ago that previous immunization with a flu vaccine might provide *some* partial or additional protection, because of overlap between coronaviruses and influenza. I don't know what happened with that, but it illustrates the principle that some pathogens can share features with a new one that allow for an immunity to a prior pathogen to help out while a new immunity gets established. 

There has also been much debate about whether it is "better" (i.e., more effective with fewer cases and hospitalizations) to go with the same vaccine for both shots (or even 3), or change between shots. In truth, that exploration was more sparked by temporary shortages of this or that vaccine, as well as shortages of willing recipients. "Is it possible for me to have Pfizer or Moderna this time? I heard some bad stuff about AstraZeneca and I'm kinda worried." At present, Canada is one of a handful of countries that have given a well-considered thumbs up to mixing vaccines. As I understand it, regardless of sticking with the same one, or switching, spreading shots out about 12 weeks seems to yield best immune response, in terms of measurable indices of immunity.

All of this variant talk has me wondering, though. We were encouraged to get our flu shots last fall, so as to avoid a double whammy of covid and flu cases filling up and constipating our hospitals. (I got mine the week they became available.) Coupled with the various other public health measures over the past year, including travel restrictions, I wonder if the traditional need for a seasonal flu shot (in response to spread and variant development) has been diminished. For an understandable variety of reasons (i.e., busy with other emergencies), hospitals may not be in a great position to have accurately tracked incidence of the flu; although word is that all that masking, distancing and sanitizer seems to have prevented the double whammy they were expecting. Still, I wonder if, with everything that has happened, my flu shot from last October is still valid because there hasn't been any new variant spreading. I honestly don't know.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> Still, I wonder if, with everything that has happened, my flu shot from last October is still valid because there hasn't been any new variant spreading. I honestly don't know.


A very good question, indeed. I too got my flu shot last winter. I just assumed I'd get it again this year. I hadn't wondered if the flu had been eradicated because no one caught it last year. I mean, if no one else catches covid for the next year we'd consider it over, right? Is it possible for the flu to work that way too?


----------



## tomee2

Adcandour said:


> my father didn't get a nobel prize in engineering, couldn't fix one company here in canada, but move to the states and turned around that one.
> 
> he stopped engineering at the first one and moved into management when moving to the states.
> 
> now he's sought after for fixing fuckups for most the major auto companies, because he's amazing at what he does.
> 
> I wouldn't use your criteria to judge someone's credibility. mark criticizing his actual argument is the better route.


Ok, what you interpreted wasn't what I meant, sorry for my bad communicating. I try to use few words, sometimes too few.
I was implying he may have an axe to grind with Pfizer, or perhaps it's more personal and with certain people there. His change in opinion is unusual.


----------



## Adcandour

mhammer said:


> That's fine. The question is: what criteria or evidence do you require, or find sufficient, to set your leariness aside? Is such evidence reasonably obtainable, or does the leariness simply persist because it's "big industry"? And what big industries merit suspicion, and in what ways? For instance, Apotex is a big frigging company. Huge. They make generic drugs, as well as lots of money. The greater affordability of such generics lowers the costs for governments and individuals, which increases their availability. Should I be leary of them by virtue of their size and the fact they are part of the pharmaceutical industry, or does their manufacture of generics dub them pure as the driven snow?
> 
> I find that to be the most exasperating thing about the conspiracy-minded (NOT pointing any finger at yourself). It's the degree to which the narrative such persons adopt is often immune to any sort of contrary evidence. In Karl Popper's terms, their argument and belief is not "falsifiable", and all too often the conspiracy-minded will change the narrative in order to keep it safe from contrary evidence.
> 
> People are weird.


Ideally, I would love to have a team of scientists with zero interest in making money and zero government ties go over the existing data that includes testing for covid, the vaccine's efficacy, the repurposing of existing medications and the claims of ivermectin (this one really confuses me - video to follow). 

Whether this is reasonable to ask for...I seriously doubt it. Even if it was accomplished, I'd probably still have to sort out the morons who come up with convincing counter claims. 

I'm not a conspiracy guy...but I believe that people with power and money want more and will do what they need to protect it. Conversely, I believe that people without money or power will do what they can to get it. Obviously, I'm generalizing and there are exceptions. There was an interesting documentary made by the heir to the johnson and johnson empire about just being a rich kid in New York (trump's kid was in it among others)...it provides good insight into the shittiness of these rich people.

Anecdotally, I have a fairly intimate knowledge of the workings of large companies in the automotive industry through my father - although he is very good at english, it is his 5th language, so I proofread a lot of his outgoing emails that are considered 'important' - some of the shit I see is sketchy at best.

Further, I'm ashamed to admit that working with the government (regional, municipal, and federal) wasn't a non-sketch experience. I've stolen work from a specialized contractor that was caught doing sketchy stuff with government employees. You remember when I worked for the RCMP one weekend (I've worked for them repeatedly, mind you) and met up with you ottawans? THAT job was sketch, but I have paid the price on a personal level and I'm glad that I sold my company and moved on.

I realize the companies noted above are unrelated to big pharma, but companies are virtually cookie-cutter in my opinion and the above does weigh in on my opinion.


----------



## Adcandour

Can someone look this? If they are speaking the truth, then, again, it's a complete mindfuck for me. They are biologists with, again, nothing to gain. Their shows have been shut out of mainstream media, but they seem credible.


----------



## allthumbs56

Adcandour said:


> Can someone look this? If they are speaking the truth, then, again, it's a complete mindfuck for me. They are biologists with, again, nothing to gain. Their shows have been shut out of mainstream media, but they seem credible.


Ivermectin - the wonder drug that nobody will say they're using. The one that no doctors will show a study of it's success - despite the fact that all of 6 doctors published a protocol that they claim works. The drug that I can find nothing substantive about it's real-world success.

You wanna see success? Take a look at Portugal - the one major country that actually succeeded in getting most of it's population vaccinated (87% first dose, 81.5% second). Check their cases, their deaths. Look as deep as you'd like. Vaccinations work. Why are we still trying to use this other stuff?


----------



## Dorian2

Adcandour said:


> Can someone look this? If they are speaking the truth, then, again, it's a complete mindfuck for me. They are biologists with, again, nothing to gain. Their shows have been shut out of mainstream media, but they seem credible.


I think that the issue is this. The lady talking at 1.05m mark with " Is it dangerous...noooooo...it's been given in hundreds of millions of doses". 

A good example of this foible is a drug called Warfarin. In carefully issued doses, it's a very effective treatment as a blood thinner in very specific circumstances. That doesn't mean that you can run out to the local Home Depot and grab a bottle of rat poison and ingest it in the same manner. I think that they're trying to avoid a situation where people that don't pay attention to the details and follow professional medical advice might take it upon themselves to self treat based on Dr. Google or Joe Rogan. 

It would also be akin to telling someone to use some sandpaper to perform a fret job on a guitar. Devil's in the details.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

allthumbs56 said:


> Ivermectin - the wonder drug that nobody will say they're using. The one that no doctors will show a study of it's success - despite the fact that all of 6 doctors published a protocol that they claim works. The drug that I can find nothing substantive about it's real-world success.
> 
> You wanna see success? Take a look at Portugal - the one major country that actually succeeded in getting most of it's population vaccinated (87% first dose, 81.5% second). Check their cases, their deaths. Look as deep as you'd like. Vaccinations work. Why are we still trying to use this other stuff?


That's a complete head scratcher for me. Why would someone seriously consider using Invermectin while simultaneously saying they have doubts about the safety of COVOD vaccinations?


----------



## allthumbs56

isoneedacoffee said:


> That's a complete head scratcher for me. Why would someone seriously consider using Invermectin while simultaneously saying they have doubts about the safety of COVOD vaccinations?


Yup - but every day it matters to 50,000 less Canadians as they join the majority by getting their first jabs. In a couple months, the 3 or 6% left can meet down at the corner and share their favorite memes with each other.


----------



## mhammer

Dr. John Campbell, whom some of you might follow on Youtube, summarized a recently published (and peer-reviewed) meta-analysis of ivermectin efficacy back in June. 

Meta-analysis is a statistical technique for combining many smaller studies into a single data-set. Statistical support for an outcome is generally established by "rejection of the null hypothesis"; that is, calculating whether the observed result is one that could easily occur by chance, or is conspicuously different than what probability theory/models would dictate. Unfortunately, small clinical studies rarely have the "statistical power" to be able to reject the null hypothesis,. It takes a certain quantum of data to have any degree of certainty. So small studies can kinda sorta look promising, but don't provide any solid evidence one way or the other. Combining multiple studies, via meta-analysis, can provide the statistical power that can allow someone to say "there's something there", or alternatively say "there's just as much nothing there as we thought, but now we're more certain of it". There are ground-rules for meta-analysis. The studies have to be comparable in a number of important and assured ways. You can't just throw it all in the pot and make claims from a data soup-du-jour. For a number of fields and phenomena, really the only way to draw strong inferences IS via meta-analysis. (Fun Fact: Frank Schmidt, one of the acknowledged godfathers of meta-analysis, passed away just a few weeks ago. University of Iowa meta-analysis pioneer Frank Schmidt dies at 77 )

The study Campbell summarizes involved 2,438 patients, combining all the studies. Chuck will be happy that all were completely independent, self-funded, non-corporate, non-governmental studies. Not all provided high confidence or certainty in the results, but it was enough to take seriously. At the 13:00 mark, Campbell notes that those NOT receiving ivermectin were about 3.39x more likely to die from Covid than ivermectin recipients. That's not nothing, but pales in comparison to the substantially greater likelihood of death in unvaccinated persons compared to vaccinated. And I hasten to add, that lower death rate in the vaccinated is across hundreds of millions of people, rather than 2,438.

So, again, it's not nothing, and Campbell notes the ridiculously low cost of tablets (NOT the horse-paste people have been rushing to buy, before they have to call the poison control centre), that public health officials would LOVE to be able to recommend, if only there was some certainty of benefit and no risks entailed.


----------



## tonewoody

Internet podcasters/ personalities / channels / influencers etc. are in business for themselves. They create content.

The "spicier" the content, the more money they make. Make no mistake, podcasters target their demographics and cater exclusively to the mindset of subscribers. Content: Find and pay an "expert" to say "x", make a video clip that goes viral. That is just good business.

Facts, science, hey, a little bit goes a long way. They know the line. The primary goal is to create continuous content, attract attention and new subscribers. More views = power.

People are unbelievably gullible. It is frightening how many subscribers truly believe that the "personalities" who reinforce their views are selfless heros speaking the "real truth". Spoiler... They want your money... or vote or... sponsor money...or

Yet, no subscriber thinks they are a sucker or weak minded. Frankly, it is rather fascinating how this works... one of human natures vulnerabilities.

Critical thinking seems to have gone out of fashion. People prefer to rely on self biased "Entertainment tonight" information sources. Slogans are being accepted as fact/science. Add in a psychological element, (FEAR!!!), voila!, viral content (aka $'s).

"PANDEMIC OF VARIANTS!!!" Tune in next week....

Sadly, the business of "bias selling" is so slick, so persuasive on the surface, that many people eat the wafer and never think twice. (See spoiler above).


----------



## laristotle

tonewoody said:


> Internet podcasters/ personalities / channels / influencers etc. are in business for themselves. They create content.











Howard Stern calls out Joe Rogan for anti-vax views


The shock jock, who supports mandatory vaccinations, also has a message for 'all the s---heads in our country who won’t get vaccinations'




nationalpost.com


----------



## isoneedacoffee

laristotle said:


> Howard Stern calls out Joe Rogan for anti-vax views
> 
> 
> The shock jock, who supports mandatory vaccinations, also has a message for 'all the s---heads in our country who won’t get vaccinations'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


Just to be clear, Howard S
tern has likely had virtually zero influence on people getting vaccinated. Joe Rogan is a different story.


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> Howard Stern calls out Joe Rogan for anti-vax views
> 
> 
> The shock jock, who supports mandatory vaccinations, also has a message for 'all the s---heads in our country who won’t get vaccinations'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


Well now I'm really torn 😕


----------



## HighNoon

Adcandour said:


> Can someone look this? If they are speaking the truth, then, again, it's a complete mindfuck for me. They are biologists with, again, nothing to gain. Their shows have been shut out of mainstream media, but they seem credible.


I've been following the experience of Uttar Pradesh, a heavily populated state in India, with the drug ivermectin since last year. They have continued to do quite well with it, in controlling their covid case count.








The Undeniable Ivermectin Miracle in India’s 240m Populated Largest State, Uttar Pradesh – Horowitz - NewsRescue.com


Doctors advice that Ivermectin or Monoclonal antibodies should be used within the first 10 days of contact/infection; while the virus is still alive. After 10 days the virus is already dead and has left trillions of cascade-causing debris viral particles NewsRescue by DANIEL HOROWITZ, TheBlaze...




newsrescue.com





Also of note is what has happened in Zimbabwe, where after giving Ivermectin as a prophylaxis and in treatment, they reduced their death count per day, from 70+ to single digits. Half way down the page is an interview with a Dr. Jackie Stone, who is a front line doctor with years of previous experience in dealing with HIV and Malaria patients.








Lessons from the Zimbabwe ivermectin experience - Medical Update Online


Reflecting on ivermectin use in Zimbabwe, Dr Jackie Stone describes how covid-19 is now under control and everyone has the drug in their home medicine cupboard. In patients... read more.



medicalupdateonline.com


----------



## tonewoody

@HighNoon

Dude, here is a fucking clue for you.

I looked at the Newsrescue.com link you reference above. Seriously, this is absolute bullshit tabloid pseudo christian attention grabbing rubbish. Like damn... way off in the weeds...

You call this credible??? News flash, if you are basing your "grand vision" on this shit... maybe reach out a bit further than you have been recently.

Wow, just Wow.... but take care.

Scroll down the page, on the right. More scholarly articles...


----------



## tonewoody

PS. I'm out... carry on. 

or not, feed the troll at your own risk.


----------



## Dorian2




----------



## HighNoon

tonewoody said:


> PS. I'm out.. carry on.


Yeah, some of the Indian on line papers are pretty funny. The story though is on the mark.


----------



## Mikev7305

tonewoody said:


> Seriously, this is absolute bullshit tabloid pseudo christian attention grabbing rubbish


Certainly attention grabbing. Seems the smear campaign on the drug has worked quite well on you


----------



## HighNoon

There are no wild ads here....it's safe....just interviews with Dr. Suryakant, Department Head for Respiratory Medicine at King George Hospital in Lucknow....








The story behind ivermectin use in India - Medical Update Online


Interview and article by Christine Clark. Dr Suryakant explains how a white paper enabled him and his colleagues to argue the case for ivermectin use and resulted in... read more.



medicalupdateonline.com





And here's Dr. Pierre Kory who's been on the front line treating Covid patients from the very beginning, explaining the history of ivermectin and it's usages. Of particular note is the mention of experiments from 2012, looking at the anti-viral properties of the drug in relation to zika, west nile, dengue, and influenza viruses. Interesting stuff.


----------



## keto

HighNoon said:


> Yeah, some of the Indian on line papers are pretty funny. The story though is on the mark.


Um, no, you talking newsrescue? hahahaha that entire site is propoganda, there isn't a straight story on it. oye.


----------



## keto

HighNoon said:


> There are no wild ads here....it's safe....just interviews with Dr. Suryakant, Department Head for Respiratory Medicine at King George Hospital in Lucknow....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The story behind ivermectin use in India - Medical Update Online
> 
> 
> Interview and article by Christine Clark. Dr Suryakant explains how a white paper enabled him and his colleagues to argue the case for ivermectin use and resulted in... read more.
> 
> 
> 
> medicalupdateonline.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's Dr. Pierre Kory who's been on the front line treating Covid patients from the very beginning, explaining the history of ivermectin and it's usages. Of particular note is the mention of experiments from 2012, looking at the anti-viral properties of the drug in relation to zika, west nile, dengue, and influenza viruses. Interesting stuff.



Not very selective in your reading, are you. That whole site, when you scan down the articles, appears to once again be propaganda, for 2 drugs. You can do better.


----------



## HighNoon

keto said:


> Um, no, you talking newsrescue? hahahaha that entire site is propoganda, there isn't a straight story on it. oye.


The same story was on a bunch of the Indian News sites....but then, the news about the use of this drug has been around for awhile. And in South America, and Africa, and also used in the U.S. for thousands of patients. At the moment it's in trials in the U.S.....kind of took awhile, but it is what it is.


----------



## HighNoon

keto said:


> Not very selective in your reading, are you. That whole site, when you scan down the articles, appears to once again be propaganda, for 2 drugs. You can do better.


Oh look....Dr. Charles Brody, inventor of many drugs and treatment protocols, is now allowed to prescribe it in Australia....legally....oh my....maybe we'll catch up someday.





Australian GPs Can Legally Prescribe Ivermectin Triple Therapy Protocol — Professor Thomas Borody







covexit.com


----------



## sulphur

You know what works? The vaccine...









Oh My Fucking God, Get the Fucking Vaccine Already, You Fucking Fucks


Hi, if you are reading this essay then congratulations, you are still alive. And if you are alive, then you have either gotten the COVID-19 vaccine...




www.mcsweeneys.net


----------



## HighNoon

Of course, they've gone after Brody and any one prescribing the drug that shall remain nameless.


----------



## HighNoon

sulphur said:


> You know what works? The vaccine...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh My Fucking God, Get the Fucking Vaccine Already, You Fucking Fucks
> 
> 
> Hi, if you are reading this essay then congratulations, you are still alive. And if you are alive, then you have either gotten the COVID-19 vaccine...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.mcsweeneys.net


Maybe you missed the part where it works .....for awhile....then it's efficacy wanes about six months in....of course in the mean time you can carry the virus and transmit the virus. So it's not exactly a sterilizing vaccine. And because of that it will not lead to herd immunity as recently stated by Sir Andrew Pollard, the head of the Oxford Vaccine Study Group, that brought the Astra Zeneca vaccine to market. then there's the whole immune escape idea, that was discussed before.


----------



## sulphur

HighNoon said:


> Maybe you missed the part where it works .....for awhile....then it's efficacy wanes about six months in....of course in the mean time you can carry the virus and transmit the virus. So it's not exactly a sterilizing vaccine. And because of that it will not lead to herd immunity as recently stated by Sir Andrew Pollard, the head of the Oxford Vaccine Study Group, that brought the Astra Zeneca vaccine to market. then there's the whole immune escape idea, that was discussed before.


So take a fucking anti parasitic instead? Sure thing.

Is that more info from your Qanon sites?


----------



## HighNoon

sulphur said:


> So take a fucking anti parasitic instead? Sure thing.
> 
> Is that more info from your Qanon sites?


As part of an early treatment protocol....if it works, why not. It was shown to have anti viral properties in vitro, years ago. Big jump to humans, but it's what they did in Peru, by way of emergency, and it worked....until they shut it down. And I don't know what Qanon is.


----------



## Dorian2

The vaccine is an early treatment protocol. Take the vaccine.


----------



## sulphur

HighNoon said:


> As part of an early treatment protocol....if it works, why not. It was shown to have anti viral properties in vitro, years ago. Big jump to humans, but it's what they did in Peru, by way of emergency, and it worked....until they shut it down. And I don't know what Qanon is.


I'm not about to debate you on the subject.

Here's a fun watch about the death cult and plague rats...


----------



## HighNoon

Dorian2 said:


> The vaccine is an early treatment protocol. Take the vaccine.


You're getting sleepy....very sleepy...you will now not have a care in the world, as you go to sleep. And you will listen....the trillions of spike proteins encased in the nano polyethylene glycol coating, will travel throughout your body, into all your organs, and yes even past the blood brain barrier....and they will help you. Yes even though they are encoded for just one subunit on the spike protein, telling your body to create an antibody response to a narrow immunity, and there may be the risk your body's primary immune system may not respond to any number of variants, you will be okay. And yes there may be the risk of mini clots throughout your body, it's okay....you'll be okay....it's safe....we know it's safe. The efficacy will wane over time, but that's okay...you can get another shot....it's safe....it's gene therapy...gene editing is auto correct....The Human is a platform for genetic augmentation....it's safe....trust us....we are here to help you....sleep....sleep....


----------



## HighNoon

sulphur said:


> I'm not about to debate you on the subject.
> 
> Here's a fun watch about the death cult and plague rats...


Are these the Qanon sites you spoke of....scary stuff....dumb people. Don't you have any Shakespeare re-runs...


----------



## sulphur

HighNoon said:


> Are these the Qanon sites you spoke of....scary stuff....dumb people. Don't you have any Shakespeare re-runs...


What the hell are you talking about? They're part of your crowd, you shoud be familiar with them.


----------



## HighNoon

sulphur said:


> What the hell are you talking about? They're part of your crowd, you shoud be familiar with them.


I spent a lot of time on the road....met a lot of people from different walks of life....but I think you have me confused with someone else.


----------



## sulphur

HighNoon said:


> I spent a lot of time on the road....met a lot of people from different walks of life....but I think you have me confused with someone else.


HAhahaha! What does that have to do with anything.

I know exactly who and what you are just by your blathering in this thread alone.


----------



## HighNoon

sulphur said:


> HAhahaha! What does that have to do with anything.
> 
> I know exactly who and what you are just by your blathering in this thread alone.


So if I question the efficacy of this drug it's what....blathering. If I go, hey look, this treatment could work....it's blathering. If I'm concerned about the safety of these injections or the long term effects (which of course are unknown)....it's what, blathering.....If I state, quite clearly, and with certainty as backed by many, that we will not achieve herd immunity with these jabs, which is the whole idea of a vaccine (in principal)....it's what....oh yeah....blathering. I'll need another bar of soap to lather up the blather.


----------



## Dorian2

HighNoon said:


> You're getting sleepy....very sleepy...you will now not have a care in the world, as you go to sleep. And you will listen....the trillions of spike proteins encased in the nano polyethylene glycol coating, will travel throughout your body, into all your organs, and yes even past the blood brain barrier....and they will help you. Yes even though they are encoded for just one subunit on the spike protein, telling your body to create an antibody response to a narrow immunity, and there may be the risk your body's primary immune system may not respond to any number of variants, you will be okay. And yes there may be the risk of mini clots throughout your body, it's okay....you'll be okay....it's safe....we know it's safe. The efficacy will wane over time, but that's okay...you can get another shot....it's safe....it's gene therapy...gene editing is auto correct....The Human is a platform for genetic augmentation....it's safe....trust us....we are here to help you....sleep....sleep....


Doctors orders for a transplant patient actually.

Any questions?


----------



## sulphur

HighNoon said:


> So if I question the efficacy of this drug it's what....blathering. If I go, hey look, this treatment could work....it's blathering. If I'm concerned about the safety of these injections or the long term effects (which of course are unknown)....it's what, blathering.....If I state, quite clearly, and with certainty as backed by many, that we will not achieve herd immunity with these jabs, which is the whole idea of a vaccine (in principal)....it's what....oh yeah....blathering. I'll need another bar of soap to lather up the blather.


Now you're getting it!


----------



## laristotle

HighNoon said:


> And I don't know what Qanon is.


It's apparently a cult in the US. Our version is Tru-Anon.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## MetalTele79

Yes, you can still catch COVID when you are vaccinated. However, if you get it you are much less likely to experience symptoms or serious symptoms. 

As a contact tracer I've spoken to tons of sick people over the past 10 months and the cases are far lower during this current wave. People have less symptoms that last less time because of the vaccines. I've seen vaccinated people who are taking direct care of their positive children for 10 days and never catch it themselves. I've also seen large unvaccinated households where everyone gets sick.

It's great if there's a good treatment for people who get sick enough to need it. However, why would you rely on a controversial medication for treatment and deny a prevention that will eliminate the need for treatment for the vast majority of people? Even if you don't care about others, it makes sense to do it for yourself.


----------



## Adcandour

consistently, pro-vaxxers lose their cool and do the whole "tribal" thing. I am also really tired of the gaslighting. 

I wish we could just chill, so the confused can get a handle on things. 

anyway, I'm going to be checking out mark's video later today, since that sounds like there's a lot of good info there.

ultimately, I do intend on getting vaccinated at some point this year. I dont do much these days, so I'll wait until its necessary. my girlfriend is terrified (she has a lot of immunological issues and there's some weird disease that 2 people in her family have that can cause paralysis from vaccination...don't recall the name but can find out - they became paralyzed from the neck down for years and then recovered, but had to remain in wheelchairs). yikes...

final question: does it make sense to get the vaccine sooner than later, if they don't seem to have it completely sorted out at the moment (I guess concerning the variant)? I'm super confused about it. I dont want to take thebjab to make others feel better...i want to take it knowing that it'll actually work against the latest mutation.

just remember that I only leave my house to go to the beach, golf, hike or pick up groceries. I don't work and everyone in my family is double vaxxed (even though I only see them once every few months). my point is that there's no real urgency.


----------



## MetalTele79

Getting the vaccine is totally up to you but I'll try and remember to post some vaccine confidence resources for you later.

Just be careful when around others until you decide. Even though your family is all double vaxxed it doesn't mean that they don't have it and are unaware because they are asymptomatic. Visiting outside, keeping farther than 6' and wearing masks (disposable lvl3 - NOT fabric) are all effective as well.


----------



## HighNoon

sulphur said:


> Now you're getting it!


Thank You....this has been fun. Great talking with you.


----------



## allthumbs56

I guess my question is, if the medical world believes that Ivermectin works and there are sufficient studies to prove that it works. Millions of people are alive because it works. It's a product of Big Pharma going way back. It's cheap and it's plentiful. Both useful as a preventative AND a cure why is it not being used everywhere?

I'm an Occam's Razor kind of guy. I assume that people have the best of intentions. I don't believe that the entire medical world - save a few hundred is in on some grand conspiracy.

So ........... why?


----------



## jdto

allthumbs56 said:


> I guess my question is, if the medical world believes that Ivermectin works and there are sufficient studies to prove that it works. Millions of people are alive because it works. It's a product of Big Pharma going way back. It's cheap and it's plentiful. Both useful as a preventative AND a cure why is it not being used everywhere?
> 
> I'm an Occam's Razor kind of guy. I assume that people have the best of intentions. I don't believe that the entire medical world - save a few hundred is in on some grand conspiracy.
> 
> So ........... why?


Delivery method is a big challenge for treating COVID with Ivermectin. Just having it in your system isn't getting it to where the virus goes in your body. Lots of substances can kill this virus in a test tube, but what they do to the human body is another story. From what I understand, the required dose to affect a COVID infection in a human is too high for currently available delivery methods of the drug. The below article posits an aerosol delivery method which would get the medication to the areas with high viral load, but there are challenges associated with this delivery method that are outlined in the article.

A little light reading for you 








Ivermectin: an award-winning drug with expected antiviral activity against COVID-19


Ivermectin is an FDA-approved broad-spectrum antiparasitic agent with demonstrated antiviral activity against a number of DNA and RNA viruses, including severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). Despite this promise, the antiviral ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





_"Ivermectin is an FDA-approved broad-spectrum antiparasitic agent with demonstrated antiviral activity against a number of DNA and RNA viruses, including severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). Despite this promise, the antiviral activity of ivermectin has not been consistently proven *in vivo*. While ivermectin's activity against SARS-CoV-2 is currently under investigation in patients, insufficient emphasis has been placed on formulation challenges. Here, we discuss challenges surrounding the use of ivermectin in the context of coronavirus disease-19 (COVID-19) and how novel formulations employing micro- and nanotechnologies may address these concerns."








_


----------



## isoneedacoffee

I think it’s cute how some people seem to think they know more about science than 99% of the world’s scientists.


----------



## allthumbs56

jdto said:


> Delivery method is a big challenge for treating COVID with Ivermectin. Just having it in your system isn't getting it to where the virus goes in your body. Lots of substances can kill this virus in a test tube, but what they do to the human body is another story. From what I understand, the required dose to affect a COVID infection in a human is too high for currently available delivery methods of the drug. The below article posits an aerosol delivery method which would get the medication to the areas with high viral load, but there are challenges associated with this delivery method that are outlined in the article.
> 
> A little light reading for you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ivermectin: an award-winning drug with expected antiviral activity against COVID-19
> 
> 
> Ivermectin is an FDA-approved broad-spectrum antiparasitic agent with demonstrated antiviral activity against a number of DNA and RNA viruses, including severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). Despite this promise, the antiviral ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"Ivermectin is an FDA-approved broad-spectrum antiparasitic agent with demonstrated antiviral activity against a number of DNA and RNA viruses, including severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). Despite this promise, the antiviral activity of ivermectin has not been consistently proven *in vivo*. While ivermectin's activity against SARS-CoV-2 is currently under investigation in patients, insufficient emphasis has been placed on formulation challenges. Here, we discuss challenges surrounding the use of ivermectin in the context of coronavirus disease-19 (COVID-19) and how novel formulations employing micro- and nanotechnologies may address these concerns."
> 
> View attachment 379969
> _


So, in summary, at this time it doesn't work - but if they can overcome some obstacles it could. In the future. But not now.

Right, so what else we got in the toolbox?


----------



## Guitar101

HighNoon said:


> Maybe you missed the part where it works .....for awhile....then it's efficacy wanes about six months in....of course in the mean time you can carry the virus and transmit the virus. So it's not exactly a sterilizing vaccine. And because of that it will not lead to herd immunity as recently stated by Sir Andrew Pollard, the head of the Oxford Vaccine Study Group, that brought the Astra Zeneca vaccine to market. then there's the whole immune escape idea, that was discussed before.


I've used ivermectin. I gave it to my 3 girls in the spring and their doing fine. They even reached herd immunity but that's only if 3 horses is considered a herd.


----------



## sulphur




----------



## Diablo

I dont know that India and Zimbabwe are necessarily the models for solving a pandemic, or any other medical care.
Ivermectin is appealing to places like that because primarily, its cheap. It doesnt mean its better than a vax, just cheaper. With their levels of poverty and huge populations, that may the best that they can afford....and if its marginally better than nothing, well that will have to do. Life is cheap there.
That doesnt mean I want what theyre having, to quote When Harry met Sally.
Thankfully, due to my western first world privilege, better options are available to me (for now, and it doesnt mean that they are perfect either...just better). People seem to hold the vax to incredibly high standard of performance while being much more lenient on the performance of alternative solutions.


----------



## Choo5440

Adcandour said:


> consistently, pro-vaxxers lose their cool and do the whole "tribal" thing. I am also really tired of the gaslighting.
> 
> I wish we could just chill, so the confused can get a handle on things.
> 
> anyway, I'm going to be checking out mark's video later today, since that sounds like there's a lot of good info there.
> 
> ultimately, I do intend on getting vaccinated at some point this year. I dont do much these days, so I'll wait until its necessary. my girlfriend is terrified (she has a lot of immunological issues and there's some weird disease that 2 people in her family have that can cause paralysis from vaccination...don't recall the name but can find out - they became paralyzed from the neck down for years and then recovered, but had to remain in wheelchairs). yikes...
> 
> final question: does it make sense to get the vaccine sooner than later, if they don't seem to have it completely sorted out at the moment (I guess concerning the variant)? I'm super confused about it. I dont want to take thebjab to make others feel better...i want to take it knowing that it'll actually work against the latest mutation.
> 
> just remember that I only leave my house to go to the beach, golf, hike or pick up groceries. I don't work and everyone in my family is double vaxxed (even though I only see them once every few months). my point is that there's no real urgency.


I've mentioned before, i'm an RN in Ontario, so I feel obligated to take a quick stab at this - imagine each viral particle having a key to let itself into your cells. The vaccine basically teaches your cells to watch out for the key that a virus uses. 

as a for instance - the original virus used a key that was shaped like a strat (keeping this guitar themed somehow )
now, the variants come along, and now their keys are shaped like a les paul. they're still guitar-shaped enough for the trained cells to recognize them, but sometimes they can slip through. 

Further variations can (are likely to) come down the like - maybe they'll be shaped more like a flying V, or something else crazy enough not to be recognized. Like a bass! This is where boosters come into effect (why we have a different yearly flu shot)

The above is mostly for passing exposures to the virus. If you were to get a higher load of virus at once, it can still overwhelm your body - they stop bothering with keys, and just knock down the doors. But with the vaccine, your body recognizes the virus as intruders, and will act faster to combat them. 

With your lifestyle the way it is, it's absolutely possible to maintain measures to prevent exposure, but the vaccine would be that last line of defense in case things slip past. It is your body, and I would never want you to feel shamed into a treatment. However, I do strongly believe that it's worth it, with very little downside for the vast majority of people. 

If you (or anyone else here) has other questions, please feel free to PM me/ask in thread.


----------



## allthumbs56

Choo5440 said:


> I've mentioned before, i'm an RN in Ontario, so I feel obligated to take a quick stab at this - imagine each viral particle having a key to let itself into your cells. The vaccine basically teaches your cells to watch out for the key that a virus uses.
> 
> as a for instance - the original virus used a key that was shaped like a strat (keeping this guitar themed somehow )
> now, the variants come along, and now their keys are shaped like a les paul. they're still guitar-shaped enough for the trained cells to recognize them, but sometimes they can slip through.
> 
> Further variations can (are likely to) come down the like - maybe they'll be shaped more like a flying V, or something else crazy enough not to be recognized. Like a bass! This is where boosters come into effect (why we have a different yearly flu shot)
> 
> The above is mostly for passing exposures to the virus. If you were to get a higher load of virus at once, it can still overwhelm your body - they stop bothering with keys, and just knock down the doors. But with the vaccine, your body recognizes the virus as intruders, and will act faster to combat them.
> 
> With your lifestyle the way it is, it's absolutely possible to maintain measures to prevent exposure, but the vaccine would be that last line of defense in case things slip past. It is your body, and I would never want you to feel shamed into a treatment. However, I do strongly believe that it's worth it, with very little downside for the vast majority of people.
> 
> If you (or anyone else here) has other questions, please feel free to PM me/ask in thread.


I know that my body would let a Flying V in if it came knocking - I have no immunity against a Flying V


----------



## davetcan

allthumbs56 said:


> I know that my body would let a Flying V in if it came knocking - I have no immunity against a Flying V


If it comes in looking like a drum kit we're all screwed!


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Seems to me that talk of ivermectin is using it as a treatment, reactive, while the vaccine is a more proactive course of action. 

Most studies/cases I have heard about, ivermectine is not the only treatment. It is used in conjunction with other things. So a conclusion that it is effective on it's own is not a conclusion that science has made as a policy. 

It may do something, it may be everything else, or a couple of something elses that help.

Still, I prefer a proactive path. Others may decide different but I think the best way to clean up a mess is to not spill anything in the first place.


----------



## zztomato

Perhaps if we combine Ivermectin with bleach and vinegar and inhale it as a gas? Maybe some of you "experts" could weigh in.


----------



## tonewoody

Ivermectin - BBC Overview (7 minute vid)
* Decent info summary IMO. Captures the related drama timeline and players.

BBC - Why people are using a horse drug...


----------



## isoneedacoffee

zztomato said:


> Perhaps if we combine Ivermectin with bleach and vinegar and inhale it as a gas? Maybe some of you "experts" could weigh in.


That's so 2020.


----------



## SWLABR

I haven't spoken with any Medical Doctors about the use of Ivermectin, but all the Vet's I know think it's nuts.


----------



## Jim DaddyO




----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


>


Wow - I watched the whole video because I generally like this guy. But I'm pretty sure I just watched 18 minutes of complaining about the Australian government not telling him what he wanted to know.

So far I'd say that the article @jdto linked to has told me more about ivermectin than the previous twenty combined that I have waded through. To summarize: Ivermectin shows great promise - in a test tube. Unfortunately so far, researchers have not found a way to get it into battle with the virus - and the available pill form does not get it there. It's like knowing that Tylenol works great against a headache - but rubbing it on your feet just ain't gonna do it.

Sounds pretty simple.


----------



## laristotle

FDA Staff Decline to Take Stance on Pfizer's Booster Shots Amid Lack of 'Independently Reviewed or Verified' Data


While Pfizer and Moderna are pushing for COVID-19 vaccine booster shots, staff at the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) are ...




www.ntd.com


----------



## isoneedacoffee

laristotle said:


> FDA Staff Decline to Take Stance on Pfizer's Booster Shots Amid Lack of 'Independently Reviewed or Verified' Data
> 
> 
> While Pfizer and Moderna are pushing for COVID-19 vaccine booster shots, staff at the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) are ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ntd.com


I'm not sure what point you were trying to make by sharing that link, but this is not a decision about the vaccine itself (which has already been approved by the FDA). It's about the booster (a third shot) - and whether the FDA thinks the data indicates that it's even needed.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## laristotle

isoneedacoffee said:


> I'm not sure what point you were trying to make by sharing that link, but this is not a decision about the vaccine itself (which has already been approved by the FDA). It's about the booster (a third shot) - and whether the FDA thinks the data indicates that it's even needed.


Precisely.


----------



## tonewoody

zztomato said:


> Perhaps if we combine Ivermectin with bleach and vinegar and inhale it as a gas? Maybe some of you "experts" could weigh in.


Great question. Clinical test tube trials have determined the gas to be a communist hoax.

The good news is that the suppository version is 100% effective.


----------



## HighNoon

When you got the jab, and signed the informed consent form, were you made aware of Antibody Dependent Enhancement.








Informed consent disclosure to vaccine trial subjects of risk of COVID-19 vaccines worsening clinical disease - PubMed


The specific and significant COVID-19 risk of ADE should have been and should be prominently and independently disclosed to research subjects currently in vaccine trials, as well as those being recruited for the trials and future patients after vaccine approval, in order to meet the medical...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## laristotle

Some of the COVID-19 vaccines just got new names


Why Pfizer and Moderna have new, weird names




www.healthing.ca





They sound like pokémon names. lol


----------



## Adcandour

allthumbs56 said:


> I guess my question is, if the medical world believes that Ivermectin works and there are sufficient studies to prove that it works. Millions of people are alive because it works. It's a product of Big Pharma going way back. It's cheap and it's plentiful. Both useful as a preventative AND a cure why is it not being used everywhere?
> 
> I'm an Occam's Razor kind of guy. I assume that people have the best of intentions. I don't believe that the entire medical world - save a few hundred is in on some grand conspiracy.
> 
> So ........... why?


They mention in the video I posted that they are making a replica of Ivermectin, so they can patent it and then make money from it. Not sure how true that is, but I have no reason to believe otherwise.


----------



## Adcandour

Choo5440 said:


> I've mentioned before, i'm an RN in Ontario, so I feel obligated to take a quick stab at this - imagine each viral particle having a key to let itself into your cells. The vaccine basically teaches your cells to watch out for the key that a virus uses.
> 
> as a for instance - the original virus used a key that was shaped like a strat (keeping this guitar themed somehow )
> now, the variants come along, and now their keys are shaped like a les paul. they're still guitar-shaped enough for the trained cells to recognize them, but sometimes they can slip through.
> 
> Further variations can (are likely to) come down the like - maybe they'll be shaped more like a flying V, or something else crazy enough not to be recognized. Like a bass! This is where boosters come into effect (why we have a different yearly flu shot)
> 
> The above is mostly for passing exposures to the virus. If you were to get a higher load of virus at once, it can still overwhelm your body - they stop bothering with keys, and just knock down the doors. But with the vaccine, your body recognizes the virus as intruders, and will act faster to combat them.
> 
> With your lifestyle the way it is, it's absolutely possible to maintain measures to prevent exposure, but the vaccine would be that last line of defense in case things slip past. It is your body, and I would never want you to feel shamed into a treatment. However, I do strongly believe that it's worth it, with very little downside for the vast majority of people.
> 
> If you (or anyone else here) has other questions, please feel free to PM me/ask in thread.


Funny enough, and although I appreciate the breakdown to lay terms and how you presented it, I actually took organic chemistry, and microbiology in university (disclosure - I dropped out after 3 years) - So, I do get a lot of the basics. Currently, I take quercetin to help navigate zinc through the cell membrane, so I can park it at the allosteric site on the protein chain where covid would like to situate. That makes sense to me for the time being, but my science is rusty and my focus is getting increasingly worse due to my hppd issue. I realize that people will say, "then why doesn't everybody do it"...well, I don't push it on anyone and I try not to discuss it when I do talk to people.

It's just hard to route through all the shit. At this point, I'm neither pro nor anti - I just want some solid, palatable information.

I chose to golf today, and my brain turns to mush after 6pm (I'm intensely studying NFTs at the moment, and it's very taxing on me), so I'll have to check out Mark's video tomorrow.

Again, thanks for the advice and the delivery.


----------



## sulphur

HighNoon said:


> When you got the jab, and signed the informed consent form, were you made aware of Antibody Dependent Enhancement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Informed consent disclosure to vaccine trial subjects of risk of COVID-19 vaccines worsening clinical disease - PubMed
> 
> 
> The specific and significant COVID-19 risk of ADE should have been and should be prominently and independently disclosed to research subjects currently in vaccine trials, as well as those being recruited for the trials and future patients after vaccine approval, in order to meet the medical...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


There was nothing to sign when I got my vaccinations, simply showed my health card.
Where are you people getting this horrible information?


----------



## tonewoody

sulphur said:


> There was nothing to sign when I got my vaccinations, simply showed my health card.
> Where are you people getting this horrible information?


It is not "you people", just one GC troll getting his chubby on at your expense.


----------



## tomee2

HighNoon said:


> When you got the jab, and signed the informed consent form, were you made aware of Antibody Dependent Enhancement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Informed consent disclosure to vaccine trial subjects of risk of COVID-19 vaccines worsening clinical disease - PubMed
> 
> 
> The specific and significant COVID-19 risk of ADE should have been and should be prominently and independently disclosed to research subjects currently in vaccine trials, as well as those being recruited for the trials and future patients after vaccine approval, in order to meet the medical...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


Did you actually read any of that?


----------



## tomee2

sulphur said:


> There was nothing to sign when I got my vaccinations, simply showed my health card.
> Where are you people getting this horrible information?


The study was about what consent forms should be given to the people volunteering for vaccine trials. Trials start with a few hundred volunteers, then expand up to several thousand. If the early trials show bad side effects the later trials never happen. That paper had nothing to do with what the eventual covid vaccines actually do, just what consent forms should say in the trials.


----------



## sulphur

tomee2 said:


> The study was about what consent forms should be given to the people volunteering for vaccine trials. Nothing to do with what the eventual covid vaccines actually do, just what consent forms should say in the trials.


It's also out of the US.


----------



## allthumbs56

tomee2 said:


> The study was about what consent forms should be given to the people volunteering for vaccine trials. Trials start with a few hundred volunteers, then expand up to several thousand. If the early trials show bad side effects the later trials never happen. That paper had nothing to do with what the eventual covid vaccines actually do, just what consent forms should say in the trials.


And with the new names, Pfizer and Moderna have both been approved in Canada for General Use. Can people now stop calling them "experimental"?


----------



## Sneaky

Adcandour said:


> They mention in the video I posted that they are making a replica of Ivermectin, so they can patent it and then make money from it. Not sure how true that is, but I have no reason to believe otherwise.


Who are “they”?


----------



## tonewoody

👽


----------



## tonewoody




----------



## SWLABR

Sneaky said:


> Who are “they”?


"the Man"


----------



## Adcandour

fuck, your humor sucks guys.


----------



## mhammer

sulphur said:


> There was nothing to sign when I got my vaccinations, simply showed my health card.
> Where are you people getting this horrible information?


The paper's e-publication date was Dec 2020, so it was prepared, edited, and reviewed prior to that date, and pertained to the informed consent used when the vaccine was initially being *tested*; so it listed _possibilities_, all of that much earlier in 2020. This is no different than the quickly-voiced "possible side-effects" you'll see for any medication advertised on American television. Once the vaccine was tested, and found to have *extremely rare* side-effects (like anything you see advertised), and the FDA went through the data with a fine-toothed comb, it received approval for "emergency use", and received full approval after millions of people had received it without any untoward effects.

Some of us here are taking various medications for cardiac and/or blood-pressure issues. I've been doing so for over 20 years.Pretty much all of those medications occasionally result in serious depression as a known side effect. Hell, lots of medications are known to be associated with "suicidal thoughts". Should they be taken off the market? Are they "dangerous" and a reason for me to seek some alternate approach to treatment, or are they keeping me alive and healthy?


----------



## laristotle




----------



## davetcan

mhammer said:


> The paper's e-publication date was Dec 2020, so it was prepared, edited, and reviewed prior to that date, and pertained to the informed consent used when the vaccine was initially being *tested*; so it listed _possibilities_, all of that much earlier in 2020. This is no different than the quickly-voiced "possible side-effects" you'll see for any medication advertised on American television. Once the vaccine was tested, and found to have *extremely rare* side-effects (like anything you see advertised), and the FDA went through the data with a fine-toothed comb, it received approval for "emergency use", and received full approval after millions of people had received it without any untoward effects.
> 
> Some of us here are taking various medications for cardiac and/or blood-pressure issues. I've been doing so for over 20 years.Pretty much all of those medications occasionally result in serious depression as a known side effect. Hell, lots of medications are known to be associated with "suicidal thoughts". Should they be taken off the market? Are they "dangerous" and a reason for me to seek some alternate approach to treatment, or are they keeping me alive and healthy?


Just to clarify that PubMed is widely used and referenced by by most medical professionals, it is not some fake news rag or website. My wife was a medical research librarian working for Northern Outreach, and used it all the time.

This is not directed at you Mark, just an FYI.


----------



## mhammer

davetcan said:


> Just to clarify the PubMed is widely used and referenced by by most medical professionals, it is not some fake news rag or website. My wife was a medical research librarian working for Northern Outreach, and used it all the time.
> 
> This is not directed at you Mark, just an FYI.


Understood perfectly. My wife uses PubMed as well, because Health Canada provides it to employees as one of the information sources they plumb.


----------



## HighNoon

tomee2 said:


> Did you actually read any of that?


Yes, and a lot more going back to the animal studies in 2012 with mRNA and the effects on them, specifically ADE. There should be informed consent as part of medical ethics.

*Conclusions drawn from the study and clinical implications: *The specific and significant COVID-19 risk of ADE should have been and should be prominently and independently disclosed to research subjects currently in vaccine trials, as well as those being recruited for the trials and future patients after vaccine approval, in order to meet the medical ethics standard of patient comprehension for informed consent.


----------



## allthumbs56

HighNoon said:


> Yes, and a lot more going back to the animal studies in 2012 with mRNA and the effects on them, specifically ADE. There should be informed consent as part of medical ethics.
> 
> *Conclusions drawn from the study and clinical implications: *The specific and significant COVID-19 risk of ADE should have been and should be prominently and independently disclosed to research subjects currently in vaccine trials, as well as those being recruited for the trials and future patients after vaccine approval, in order to meet the medical ethics standard of patient comprehension for informed consent.


The only time I've ever signed anything giving my consent for medical purposes is for surgeries.


----------



## HighNoon

mhammer said:


> The paper's e-publication date was Dec 2020, so it was prepared, edited, and reviewed prior to that date, and pertained to the informed consent used when the vaccine was initially being *tested*; so it listed _possibilities_, all of that much earlier in 2020. This is no different than the quickly-voiced "possible side-effects" you'll see for any medication advertised on American television. Once the vaccine was tested, and found to have *extremely rare* side-effects (like anything you see advertised), and the FDA went through the data with a fine-toothed comb, it received approval for "emergency use", and received full approval after millions of people had received it without any untoward effects.
> 
> Some of us here are taking various medications for cardiac and/or blood-pressure issues. I've been doing so for over 20 years.Pretty much all of those medications occasionally result in serious depression as a known side effect. Hell, lots of medications are known to be associated with "suicidal thoughts". Should they be taken off the market? Are they "dangerous" and a reason for me to seek some alternate approach to treatment, or are they keeping me alive and healthy?


ADE is not depression or some 'minor' side effect. Neither is myocarditis. And nothing can be declared 'safe' until it goes through the complete trial process....October 27, 2022 for Moderna and July 30, 2023 for Pfizer.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Real updates anyone?

Ontario is seeing about 800 or so new cases every day for over the past week.
Alberta is talking to Ontario about sending Covid patients over after being told by BC they don't have room.

That's the big highlights...carry on.


----------



## HighNoon

allthumbs56 said:


> The only time I've ever signed anything giving my consent for medical purposes is for surgeries.


When these vaccines were coming out I talked with my Doctor, and they said there is no safety data yet as it pertains to my condition. Three days ago during a follow up, I talked with my Surgeon and he ran down the basics of my immune response, and said (re: the vaccines) it's up to me, after outlining the benefits and possible negatives, as he sees them. And that's where I sit at the moment.


----------



## HighNoon

sulphur said:


> There was nothing to sign when I got my vaccinations, simply showed my health card.
> Where are you people getting this horrible information?


Excuse me....it was a little bit of joke, inferring there should be an informed consent form for this medical procedure.


----------



## zztomato

HighNoon said:


> Excuse me....it was a little bit of joke, inferring there should be an informed consent form for this medical procedure.


You mean rolling up your sleeve and letting a medical professional disinfect your skin, prepare a syringe and then poke it in your arm is somehow not consenting?

It's not like they are clubbing people over the head and stabbing them with a needle. Not a bad idea for some though, I suppose.


----------



## Guitar101

HighNoon said:


> Excuse me....it was a little bit of joke, inferring there should be an informed consent form for this medical procedure.


----------



## HighNoon

zztomato said:


> You mean rolling up your sleeve and letting a medical professional disinfect your skin, prepare a syringe and then poke it in your arm is somehow not consenting?
> 
> It's not like they are clubbing people over the head and stabbing them with a needle. Not a bad idea for some though, I suppose.


A form....the kind with words on it, explaining what is being put in you and possible side effects. These injections are serious stuff. Not much to ask for.....


----------



## allthumbs56

HighNoon said:


> ADE is not depression or some 'minor' side effect. Neither is myocarditis. And nothing can be declared 'safe' until it goes through the complete trial process....October 27, 2022 for Moderna and July 30, 2023 for Pfizer.


This article suggests that both Pzizer and Moderna are both fully approved now:

Health Canada authorizes new names for COVID-19 vaccines | CTV News 

Where are your dates coming from?


----------



## Grainslayer

HighNoon said:


> A form....the kind with words on it, explaining what is being put in you and possible side effects. These injections are serious stuff. Not much to ask for.....


I dont think "they" want you to know..Or a scarier thought is that "they" really dont know either.😷🐑


----------



## Adcandour

FYI...the video I posted earlier from Joe Rogan was taken down from youtube, so that is the wrong one. Not sure how that happened. It is the first 15 minutes of episode 1705 that I was after...but you can only hear it on spotify.

Anyway: 

I found something interesting from April 9, 2020 that was published in the National Library of Medicine. I'm making the assumption that they are a reliable source.

Disclaimer: I have no experience with 'in silico' methods of testing, but can say that it seems pretty impressive (seriously impressive). Anyway, they detail all the equipment used. The fact that they also performed studies 'in vitro' is comforting.

Also, does the fact that ivermectin doesn't covalently bond to the sites identified in the molecular docking studies might be why people say the efficacy isn't long lasting? I'm pretty ignorant on this... (can someone clarify)

In this earlier article, this programme is, "focused on identifying drug leads that target main protease (Mpro) of SARS-CoV-2: Mpro is a key enzyme of coronaviruses and has a pivotal role in mediating viral replication and transcription, making it an attractive drug target for SARS-CoV-25,6."









Structure of Mpro from SARS-CoV-2 and discovery of its inhibitors - PubMed


A new coronavirus, known as severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), is the aetiological agent responsible for the 2019-2020 viral pneumonia outbreak of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)<sup>1-4</sup>. Currently, there are no targeted therapeutic agents for the treatment...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





So, moving forward from the above, the following study goes above and beyond what they were after in the above article - and was published late March 2021









Exploring the binding efficacy of ivermectin against the key proteins of SARS-CoV-2 pathogenesis: an in silico approach


Aim: COVID-19 is currently the biggest threat to mankind. Recently, ivermectin (a US FDA-approved antiparasitic drug) has been explored as an anti-SARS-CoV-2 agent. Herein, we have studied the possible mechanism of action of ivermectin using in silico ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





If you can read through and tell me why the interaction of Ivermectin with the human ACE2 receptor protein is or isn't important - that is one area I could use clarification. I wrote it off, because it wasn't of interest in the first document I linked to. If I had to guess, I would say it is because "the SARS spike protein objects to utilize it for for binding and viral entry".

Other than that, the study seems solid as hell. I wish they footnoted a couple of things, mind you. they claim a couple of things about Ivermectin that should be sourced, imo (even if just for further study).

So, based on the above study would you say it's smarter to wait for Ivermectin (or similar), if you have that luxury? I plan on either being vaxxed or Ivermected within the next 12 months.


----------



## HighNoon

Adcandour said:


> Funny enough, and although I appreciate the breakdown to lay terms and how you presented it, I actually took organic chemistry, and microbiology in university (disclosure - I dropped out after 3 years) - So, I do get a lot of the basics. Currently, I take quercetin to help navigate zinc through the cell membrane, so I can park it at the allosteric site on the protein chain where covid would like to situate. That makes sense to me for the time being, but my science is rusty and my focus is getting increasingly worse due to my hppd issue. I realize that people will say, "then why doesn't everybody do it"...well, I don't push it on anyone and I try not to discuss it when I do talk to people.
> 
> It's just hard to route through all the shit. At this point, I'm neither pro nor anti - I just want some solid, palatable information.
> 
> I chose to golf today, and my brain turns to mush after 6pm (I'm intensely studying NFTs at the moment, and it's very taxing on me), so I'll have to check out Mark's video tomorrow.
> 
> Again, thanks for the advice and the delivery.


When all this started I talked with a microbiologist friend, who's specialty is world wide movement of pathogens by animals/ wildlife, and bioweapons, and he said if I wanted to have any understanding of this virus, I should start with this paper....and not just read the abstract but understand the data contained within.


https://www.med.unc.edu/orfeome/wp-content/uploads/sites/609/2018/03/a-sars-like-cluster-of-circulating-bat-coronaviruses-shows-potential-for-human-emergence.pdf



Of note are two of the authors, Shi Zheng-Li (the batwoman of China) and Ralph Baric, who's featured prominently in news reports the last few months, with regard to gain of function research. 

My extremely rusty chemistry skills resulted in many nightly headaches, but over time a few slivers of light penetrated the dark chambers of rock n'roll induced concussive syndrome.
Since then he's given me more papers and data to get a glimpse at the behind the scenes goings on that now affect the whole world.


----------



## laristotle

Grainslayer said:


> I dont think "they" want you to know..Or a scarier thought is that "they" really dont know either.😷🐑


----------



## allthumbs56

Adcandour said:


> FYI...the video I posted earlier from Joe Rogan was taken down from youtube, so that is the wrong one. Not sure how that happened. It is the first 15 minutes of episode 1705 that I was after...but you can only hear it on spotify.
> 
> Anyway:
> 
> I found something interesting from April 9, 2020 that was published in the National Library of Medicine. I'm making the assumption that they are a reliable source.
> 
> Disclaimer: I have no experience with 'in silico' methods of testing, but can say that it seems pretty impressive (seriously impressive). Anyway, they detail all the equipment used. The fact that they also performed studies 'in vitro' is comforting.
> 
> Also, does the fact that ivermectin doesn't covalently bond to the sites identified in the molecular docking studies might be why people say the efficacy isn't long lasting? I'm pretty ignorant on this... (can someone clarify)
> 
> In this earlier article, this programme is, "focused on identifying drug leads that target main protease (Mpro) of SARS-CoV-2: Mpro is a key enzyme of coronaviruses and has a pivotal role in mediating viral replication and transcription, making it an attractive drug target for SARS-CoV-25,6."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Structure of Mpro from SARS-CoV-2 and discovery of its inhibitors - PubMed
> 
> 
> A new coronavirus, known as severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), is the aetiological agent responsible for the 2019-2020 viral pneumonia outbreak of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)<sup>1-4</sup>. Currently, there are no targeted therapeutic agents for the treatment...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, moving forward from the above, the following study goes above and beyond what they were after in the above article - and was published late March 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exploring the binding efficacy of ivermectin against the key proteins of SARS-CoV-2 pathogenesis: an in silico approach
> 
> 
> Aim: COVID-19 is currently the biggest threat to mankind. Recently, ivermectin (a US FDA-approved antiparasitic drug) has been explored as an anti-SARS-CoV-2 agent. Herein, we have studied the possible mechanism of action of ivermectin using in silico ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you can read through and tell me why the interaction of Ivermectin with the human ACE2 receptor protein is or isn't important - that is one area I could use clarification. I wrote it off, because it wasn't of interest in the first document I linked to. If I had to guess, I would say it is because "the SARS spike protein objects to utilize it for for binding and viral entry".
> 
> Other than that, the study seems solid as hell. I wish they footnoted a couple of things, mind you. they claim a couple of things about Ivermectin that should be sourced, imo (even if just for further study).
> 
> So, based on the above study would you say it's smarter to wait for Ivermectin (or similar), if you have that luxury? I plan on either being vaxxed or Ivermected within the next 12 months.


My understanding is that there is now way as of yet to deliver ivermectin to the cells that need it. As well as it may work in a test-tube it can't get into your lungs (and other spots) to be able to work any magic at all right now.


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> View attachment 380083


Yesterday another 40,000 Canadians jumped in the pool and discovered that they didn't drown. Another day of reduced sickness and noise. Another 40,000 voices saying "For God's sake stop with the moaning and go get the stupid shot. You aren't gonna drown".

It's not Invasion of the Body Snatchers.


----------



## Choo5440

Adcandour said:


> FYI...the video I posted earlier from Joe Rogan was taken down from youtube, so that is the wrong one. Not sure how that happened. It is the first 15 minutes of episode 1705 that I was after...but you can only hear it on spotify.
> 
> Anyway:
> 
> I found something interesting from April 9, 2020 that was published in the National Library of Medicine. I'm making the assumption that they are a reliable source.
> 
> Disclaimer: I have no experience with 'in silico' methods of testing, but can say that it seems pretty impressive (seriously impressive). Anyway, they detail all the equipment used. The fact that they also performed studies 'in vitro' is comforting.
> 
> Also, does the fact that ivermectin doesn't covalently bond to the sites identified in the molecular docking studies might be why people say the efficacy isn't long lasting? I'm pretty ignorant on this... (can someone clarify)
> 
> In this earlier article, this programme is, "focused on identifying drug leads that target main protease (Mpro) of SARS-CoV-2: Mpro is a key enzyme of coronaviruses and has a pivotal role in mediating viral replication and transcription, making it an attractive drug target for SARS-CoV-25,6."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Structure of Mpro from SARS-CoV-2 and discovery of its inhibitors - PubMed
> 
> 
> A new coronavirus, known as severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), is the aetiological agent responsible for the 2019-2020 viral pneumonia outbreak of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)<sup>1-4</sup>. Currently, there are no targeted therapeutic agents for the treatment...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, moving forward from the above, the following study goes above and beyond what they were after in the above article - and was published late March 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exploring the binding efficacy of ivermectin against the key proteins of SARS-CoV-2 pathogenesis: an in silico approach
> 
> 
> Aim: COVID-19 is currently the biggest threat to mankind. Recently, ivermectin (a US FDA-approved antiparasitic drug) has been explored as an anti-SARS-CoV-2 agent. Herein, we have studied the possible mechanism of action of ivermectin using in silico ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you can read through and tell me why the interaction of Ivermectin with the human ACE2 receptor protein is or isn't important - that is one area I could use clarification. I wrote it off, because it wasn't of interest in the first document I linked to. If I had to guess, I would say it is because "the SARS spike protein objects to utilize it for for binding and viral entry".
> 
> Other than that, the study seems solid as hell. I wish they footnoted a couple of things, mind you. they claim a couple of things about Ivermectin that should be sourced, imo (even if just for further study).
> 
> So, based on the above study would you say it's smarter to wait for Ivermectin (or similar), if you have that luxury? I plan on either being vaxxed or Ivermected within the next 12 months.


I'm going to stay away from the effectiveness debate, and just explain the testing process.

In silico is a fancy term for computer modelling of reactions.
Based on the paper, according to the models, invermectin had some promising reactions to the viral particles.

I want to point out that the wording "candidature" means that invermectin had these reactions in simulation, but no actual testing was done based on this study. the simulations point to in vitro testing needed to confirm any reactions.

In vitro testing (aka, in test tubes with drug and virus) would be done next to see if there are actual reactions/what levels and what delivery method are to work best. This phase can now point to whether doses are feasible in live subjects.

After that, In Vivo (testing in live subjects) would follow, to see if the treatment works within a person. living tissue has a tendency to derail the best laid plans. Ie, in this case - oral version may metabolize and clear out of body before getting to lungs. And then an inhaler version affects lung tissue negatively. all sorts of interactions that can negate the viability of a potential treatment

like others have pointed out, just because this drug may react in a promising manner with the virus, doesn't mean that taking a pill will work. 
If you have dry eyes, eye drops tend to work better than taking a pill (gross simplification here)
sometimes, taking tylenol by mouth doesn't work, you have to get a suppository (yes, this is real)

...please do not put invermectin into your eyes or up your butt based on this.


----------



## HighNoon

allthumbs56 said:


> This article suggests that both Pzizer and Moderna are both fully approved now:
> 
> Health Canada authorizes new names for COVID-19 vaccines | CTV News
> 
> Where are your dates coming from?


Those were the original trial dates, I wrote down some time ago. Just on a basic overall FYI, how can any long term data be ascertained after a period of 6-8 months, and thereby be given full approval. Here's today's count from the European data base (Eudra Vigilance) on adverse events...419,921 https://dap.ema.europa.eu/analytics/saw.dll?PortalPages

Forgot to mention this is just for the Pfizer BioNTech shot...the others have their own list


----------



## Grainslayer

allthumbs56 said:


> Yesterday another 40,000 Canadians jumped in the pool and discovered that they didn't drown. Another day of reduced sickness and noise. Another 40,000 voices saying "For God's sake stop with the moaning and go get the stupid shot. You aren't gonna drown".
> 
> It's not Invasion of the Body Snatchers.


I wont swim in pools.Never have and never will.Always grossed me out.The thought of soaking in chlorine/whatever other chemicals,and the potential of sweat,dead skin,urine ect..no thanks..😁


----------



## zztomato

HighNoon said:


> A form....the kind with words on it, explaining what is being put in you and possible side effects. These injections are serious stuff. Not much to ask for.....


Look, lots of people are giving you a hard time in this thread. I'm not going to pile on. I fully appreciate the reluctance of some to embrace the vaccine approach to fighting the pandemic.

Here is my experience with the vaccine and viruses in general;
I received my first dose in early April. I had the typical sore arm and felt ill for a day. All was fine until about a week in when I started suffering from severe fatigue, heart pain, chest pain, numbness on my left side, weakness in my left arm and hand. This lasted about 3 weeks. I spoke with my doctor and he did the typical things- had me do blood work, chest Xray, put in a call to the Heart institute for a stress test. All of this was scary as hell because I'm in excellent shape for a 57 year old. By the time I had the stress test at the Heart Institute, I was feeling fine so nothing showed up. A little while after that I got my second dose and had the same symptoms but not quite as bad- about two weeks of fatigue. Conclusion? I had a bad reaction to the vaccine. There was no, or at least limited, reporting on these side effects in April when I was going through all the symptoms. I _may _have had myocarditis or pericarditis but I was not tested during the worst of it. There have been a few rare cases but very few fatalities related to myocarditis as a result of the vaccine. 

Viruses; The last time I was ill with a respiratory virus it literally fucked me up for months. Ended up with fluid in my lungs that took forever to sort out. Ruined the end of my fall rowing season, kept me from training well into the winter and running was also off the table for a while. If there was a vaccine for that thing that I had, stick the damn thing in me cause I sure as hell aint' going through that if I don't have to.
A few years back I missed getting my flu shot and got a heavy case of whatever was going around that year. I was sick for two months, could not tase food, could not smell properly, nearly passed out a couple of times. Sick, sick, sick. Side effects of that virus also included the start of tinnitus that remains with me to this day. The problems with taste and smell lasted for a year at least. Do I wish I had got my flu shot that year? You bet.

Again, I appreciate that the "mysterious vaccine" with little long term study my be scary, I really do- from my own experience too. However, viruses are also very mysterious and really scary. Even though they may (or may not) occur naturally and are a part of life, humans, with our big brains, can think of ways to combat these viruses- this is also a naturally occurring thing. 
Covid would likely kill me or, at the very least, last a long time in my system. A vaccine for me just makes sense even though I didn't deal with it well.


----------



## sulphur

I was cautioned about that myocarditis, but was told that it occured in younger men, teens to early 20's and a very small percentage at that.

There was no mention of ADE, first that I heard about that.


----------



## allthumbs56

Grainslayer said:


> I wont swim in pools.Never have and never will.Always grossed me out.The thought of soaking in chlorine/whatever other chemicals,and the potential of sweat,dead skin,urine ect..no thanks..😁


I'll find another analogy for you then. Just pools - or no water at all?


----------



## tonewoody

Jim DaddyO said:


> Real updates anyone?
> 
> Ontario is seeing about 800 or so new cases every day for over the past week.
> Alberta is talking to Ontario about sending Covid patients over after being told by BC they don't have room.
> That's the big highlights...carry on.


Re New cases:
I like to factor in the AB/ON provincial populations to even out the perspective.
The general (#/100,000) are totally valid, yet the plain comparison numbers tell the story better IMO.

New cases:
ON Sept 16: 864
AB Sept 16: 1,718
--
* New cases with Population adjustment calc (AB x 3.25)
ON Sept 16: 864
AB Sept 16: *5,583*


----------



## Grainslayer

Well...between Jaws and the Friday the !3th movies,Ive always been fairly sketched out thinking about what lies below.


allthumbs56 said:


> I'll find another analogy for you then. Just pools - or no water at all?


----------



## allthumbs56

Grainslayer said:


> Well...between Jaws and the Friday the !3th movies,Ive always been fairly sketched out thinking about what lies below.


I'll avoid water altogether then


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Adcandour said:


> video I posted earlier from Joe Rogan was taken down from youtube,


I'm not a listener of Joe.
I'm not a fan of Joe.
I am for people getting the vax.

All that said, when I heard he got better, I was happy. As I am when anyone gets over a serious medical condition. I don't care how, I only care that another human being that was ill is feeling better. Which was a normal response when I was younger. Viewpoints are different, but that does not make us mortal enemies or combatants or from a different "tribe".


----------



## laristotle

Grainslayer said:


> Well...between Jaws and the Friday the !3th movies,Ive always been fairly sketched out thinking about what lies below.





allthumbs56 said:


> I'll avoid water altogether then


Then there's the 'Hollywooooood' scene in the movie 1941 with John Belushi.


----------



## HighNoon

zztomato said:


> Look, lots of people are giving you a hard time in this thread. I'm not going to pile on. I fully appreciate the reluctance of some to embrace the vaccine approach to fighting the pandemic.
> 
> Here is my experience with the vaccine and viruses in general;
> I received my first dose in early April. I had the typical sore arm and felt ill for a day. All was fine until about a week in when I started suffering from severe fatigue, heart pain, chest pain, numbness on my left side, weakness in my left arm and hand. This lasted about 3 weeks. I spoke with my doctor and he did the typical things- had me do blood work, chest Xray, put in a call to the Heart institute for a stress test. All of this was scary as hell because I'm in excellent shape for a 57 year old. By the time I had the stress test at the Heart Institute, I was feeling fine so nothing showed up. A little while after that I got my second dose and had the same symptoms but not quite as bad- about two weeks of fatigue. Conclusion? I had a bad reaction to the vaccine. There was no, or at least limited, reporting on these side effects in April when I was going through all the symptoms. I _may _have had myocarditis or pericarditis but I was not tested during the worst of it. There have been a few rare cases but very few fatalities related to myocarditis as a result of the vaccine.
> 
> Viruses; The last time I was ill with a respiratory virus it literally fucked me up for months. Ended up with fluid in my lungs that took forever to sort out. Ruined the end of my fall rowing season, kept me from training well into the winter and running was also off the table for a while. If there was a vaccine for that thing that I had, stick the damn thing in me cause I sure as hell aint' going through that if I don't have to.
> A few years back I missed getting my flu shot and got a heavy case of whatever was going around that year. I was sick for two months, could not tase food, could not smell properly, nearly passed out a couple of times. Sick, sick, sick. Side effects of that virus also included the start of tinnitus that remains with me to this day. The problems with taste and smell lasted for a year at least. Do I wish I had got my flu shot that year? You bet.
> 
> Again, I appreciate that the "mysterious vaccine" with little long term study my be scary, I really do- from my own experience too. However, viruses are also very mysterious and really scary. Even though they may (or may not) occur naturally and are a part of life, humans, with our big brains, can think of ways to combat these viruses- this is also a naturally occurring thing.
> Covid would likely kill me or, at the very least, last a long time in my system. A vaccine for me just makes sense even though I didn't deal with it well.


Had to go for a swim in the lake....and as soon as I found my testicles (it's getting quite cold), or as my wife calls it, the turtle principle, I figure it's time to respond.
Thank You for the candid and honest response. I empathize with your experience with the shot, as a family member had a very similar response, and ended up in the hospital with the suggestion of emergency surgery. However it passed, and is back at work, although still feeling the effects.

Too bad with your situation, that a D-dimer test wasn't done within a week, to see if you had a micro clotting experience. It's always a good thing to have clinical proof. 

As I mentioned to AllThumbs, I talked with my Doctor and my Surgeon (just a few days ago) and they left it up to me to make a decision about getting the vaccine or not. They understood I'm not that keen on turning my immune system on, especially with a nano delivered gene therapy and we discussed the risk/benefit side of it.....including that whole death type thing. They are very practical and honest health professionals....I wouldn't be alive without them, and consider them to be friends.

I was looking forward to a therapeutic vaccine that could deal with this virus. I did a dive on the history of the mRNA gene therapy (originally put forth for correcting genetic errors and defects....a noble and doable task), and couldn't help but notice the negative animal test results as related to an mRNA vaccine for SARS. The route they chose, was one that expressed the spike protein of the virus (side note...it does not replicate as some think). I was hoping the one chosen would deal with the nuclear protein of the virus thus giving a wider immunity. I'm guessing the spike was the easiest and fastest target to hit for the manufacturers...and there was an enormous pressure to produce and quickly. This would not be the approach I would have used, but then, no one asked me (a solid bass player was not big on their list of accredited skills).

So here we are....to jab or not to jab. I'm very open to something that works....for me. I understand the pressure some feel, and I really wish that this whole thing hadn't been so politicized and used in a negative manner. It's hard enough surviving serious public health risks as it is without being told you are no longer a welcome member of society.

As to your heart and any long lasting impact that may concern you, I found CoQ10 has done wonders for me. Years ago I read the research and real life studies at his clinic in Texas by a Dr. Peter Langsjoen. His father was one of the original researchers into it's benefit with heart conditions.


http://69.164.208.4/files/Alleviating%20Congestive%20Heart%20Failure%20with%20Coenzyme%20Q10.pdf











Coenzyme Q10 and Immune Function: An Overview


Coenzyme Q10 (CoQ10) has a number of important roles in the cell that are required for optimal functioning of the immune system. These include its essential role as an electron carrier in the mitochondrial respiratory chain, enabling the process of oxidative ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





Once again, thanks for your candid response.


----------



## HighNoon

Adcandour said:


> FYI...the video I posted earlier from Joe Rogan was taken down from youtube, so that is the wrong one. Not sure how that happened. It is the first 15 minutes of episode 1705 that I was after...but you can only hear it on spotify.
> 
> Anyway:
> 
> I found something interesting from April 9, 2020 that was published in the National Library of Medicine. I'm making the assumption that they are a reliable source.
> 
> Disclaimer: I have no experience with 'in silico' methods of testing, but can say that it seems pretty impressive (seriously impressive). Anyway, they detail all the equipment used. The fact that they also performed studies 'in vitro' is comforting.
> 
> Also, does the fact that ivermectin doesn't covalently bond to the sites identified in the molecular docking studies might be why people say the efficacy isn't long lasting? I'm pretty ignorant on this... (can someone clarify)
> 
> In this earlier article, this programme is, "focused on identifying drug leads that target main protease (Mpro) of SARS-CoV-2: Mpro is a key enzyme of coronaviruses and has a pivotal role in mediating viral replication and transcription, making it an attractive drug target for SARS-CoV-25,6."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Structure of Mpro from SARS-CoV-2 and discovery of its inhibitors - PubMed
> 
> 
> A new coronavirus, known as severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), is the aetiological agent responsible for the 2019-2020 viral pneumonia outbreak of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)<sup>1-4</sup>. Currently, there are no targeted therapeutic agents for the treatment...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, moving forward from the above, the following study goes above and beyond what they were after in the above article - and was published late March 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exploring the binding efficacy of ivermectin against the key proteins of SARS-CoV-2 pathogenesis: an in silico approach
> 
> 
> Aim: COVID-19 is currently the biggest threat to mankind. Recently, ivermectin (a US FDA-approved antiparasitic drug) has been explored as an anti-SARS-CoV-2 agent. Herein, we have studied the possible mechanism of action of ivermectin using in silico ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you can read through and tell me why the interaction of Ivermectin with the human ACE2 receptor protein is or isn't important - that is one area I could use clarification. I wrote it off, because it wasn't of interest in the first document I linked to. If I had to guess, I would say it is because "the SARS spike protein objects to utilize it for for binding and viral entry".
> 
> Other than that, the study seems solid as hell. I wish they footnoted a couple of things, mind you. they claim a couple of things about Ivermectin that should be sourced, imo (even if just for further study).
> 
> So, based on the above study would you say it's smarter to wait for Ivermectin (or similar), if you have that luxury? I plan on either being vaxxed or Ivermected within the next 12 months.


These are great questions. I know ivermectin prevents the viral proteins from entering the host cell nucleus. How it does that I don't know. And now I have to find out.....I feel another headache coming on.


----------



## Adcandour

Jim DaddyO said:


> I'm not a listener of Joe.
> I'm not a fan of Joe.
> I am for people getting the vax.
> 
> All that said, when I heard he got better, I was happy. As I am when anyone gets over a serious medical condition. I don't care how, I only care that another human being that was ill is feeling better. Which was a normal response when I was younger. Viewpoints are different, but that does not make us mortal enemies or combatants or from a different "tribe".


cool?


----------



## sulphur

Both shots that I got, I was sore at the injection site the next day like someone punched me in the shoulder, but that was it and gone the next day.
No ill effects at all otherwise.

I have a comprimised system, an apparent previous heart attack and recently diagnosed with severe COPD/emphysema.
So the last thing I needed was to contract covid, because I'm sure that would be game over.

I'm still going through testing, just had another today and a follow up with the cardiologist on Monday, Yay.


----------



## HighNoon

sulphur said:


> Both shots that I got, I was sore at the injection site the next day like someone punched me in the shoulder, but that was it and gone the next day.
> No ill effects at all otherwise.
> 
> I have a comprimised system, an apparent previous heart attack and recently diagnosed with severe COPD/emphysema.
> So the last thing I needed was to contract covid, because I'm sure that would be game over.
> 
> I'm still going through testing, just had another today and a follow up with the cardiologist on Monday, Yay.


In regards to risk/benefit analysis you sound like a perfect candidate for the shot. Here's to living.....longer.


----------



## gtrguy

Just to share my own experience- a slight headache and a some muscle/joint aches after the first AZ shot that lasted a day and a half. Second shot was Moderna and I felt nothing after that one.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

My experience: quite tired for 24 hours after AZ, and almost no effects whatsoever after Pfizer.


----------



## sulphur

gtrguy said:


> Just to share my own experience- a slight headache and a some muscle/joint aches after the first AZ shot that lasted a day and a half. Second shot was Moderna and I felt nothing after that one.


Both of mine were Pfizer, should've noted that.


----------



## allthumbs56

isoneedacoffee said:


> My experience: quite tired for 24 hours after AZ, and almost no effects whatsoever after Pfizer.


Nuthin and nuthin. Nuthin from any of my friends, family or clients. Pfizer - or the newly-named Peekachoo. Everybody I know except for 2 people have been fully vaccinated.

On the virus front both of my ex in-laws had it and recovered. 20 or so of my clients had it and 4 of them died.


----------



## HighNoon

Adcandour said:


> FYI...the video I posted earlier from Joe Rogan was taken down from youtube, so that is the wrong one. Not sure how that happened. It is the first 15 minutes of episode 1705 that I was after...but you can only hear it on spotify.
> 
> Anyway:
> 
> I found something interesting from April 9, 2020 that was published in the National Library of Medicine. I'm making the assumption that they are a reliable source.
> 
> Disclaimer: I have no experience with 'in silico' methods of testing, but can say that it seems pretty impressive (seriously impressive). Anyway, they detail all the equipment used. The fact that they also performed studies 'in vitro' is comforting.
> 
> Also, does the fact that ivermectin doesn't covalently bond to the sites identified in the molecular docking studies might be why people say the efficacy isn't long lasting? I'm pretty ignorant on this... (can someone clarify)
> 
> In this earlier article, this programme is, "focused on identifying drug leads that target main protease (Mpro) of SARS-CoV-2: Mpro is a key enzyme of coronaviruses and has a pivotal role in mediating viral replication and transcription, making it an attractive drug target for SARS-CoV-25,6."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Structure of Mpro from SARS-CoV-2 and discovery of its inhibitors - PubMed
> 
> 
> A new coronavirus, known as severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2), is the aetiological agent responsible for the 2019-2020 viral pneumonia outbreak of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19)<sup>1-4</sup>. Currently, there are no targeted therapeutic agents for the treatment...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, moving forward from the above, the following study goes above and beyond what they were after in the above article - and was published late March 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Exploring the binding efficacy of ivermectin against the key proteins of SARS-CoV-2 pathogenesis: an in silico approach
> 
> 
> Aim: COVID-19 is currently the biggest threat to mankind. Recently, ivermectin (a US FDA-approved antiparasitic drug) has been explored as an anti-SARS-CoV-2 agent. Herein, we have studied the possible mechanism of action of ivermectin using in silico ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you can read through and tell me why the interaction of Ivermectin with the human ACE2 receptor protein is or isn't important - that is one area I could use clarification. I wrote it off, because it wasn't of interest in the first document I linked to. If I had to guess, I would say it is because "the SARS spike protein objects to utilize it for for binding and viral entry".
> 
> Other than that, the study seems solid as hell. I wish they footnoted a couple of things, mind you. they claim a couple of things about Ivermectin that should be sourced, imo (even if just for further study).
> 
> So, based on the above study would you say it's smarter to wait for Ivermectin (or similar), if you have that luxury? I plan on either being vaxxed or Ivermected within the next 12 months.


I was reading the Argentina study from last year and came across this...IMPα/β1 heterodimer ....which lead me to this









RETRACTED ARTICLE: The mechanisms of action of Ivermectin against SARS-CoV-2: An evidence-based clinical review article







www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





*A. DIRECT ACTION ON SARS-COV-2*_Level 1: Action on SARS-CoV-2 cell entry_IVM docks in the region of leucine 91 of the spike protein and histidine 378 of the ACE2 receptorLeher et al.2020[22]IVM has the highest binding affinity to the predicted active site of the S glycoprotein; Considerable binding affinity to the predicted active site of the SARS-CoV-2 RdRp protein; Highest binding affinity to the predicted active site of nsp14; highest binding affinity to the active site of the TMPRSS2 proteinEweas et al.2021[23]IVM utilizes viral spike protein, main protease, replicase, and human TMPRSS2 receptors as the most possible targets for executing its antiviral efficiency by disrupting bindingChoudhury et al.2021[24]_Level 2: Action on Importin (IMP) superfamily_in presence of a viral infection, IVM targets the IMPα component of the IMP α/β1 heterodimer and binds to it, preventing interaction with IMP β1, subsequently blocking the nuclear transport of viral proteins.
.
Now I have to figure out what that means.....see you in a few days.


----------



## allthumbs56

HighNoon said:


> I was reading the Argentina study from last year and came across this...IMPα/β1 heterodimer ....which lead me to this
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RETRACTED ARTICLE: The mechanisms of action of Ivermectin against SARS-CoV-2: An evidence-based clinical review article
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *A. DIRECT ACTION ON SARS-COV-2*_Level 1: Action on SARS-CoV-2 cell entry_IVM docks in the region of leucine 91 of the spike protein and histidine 378 of the ACE2 receptorLeher et al.2020[22]IVM has the highest binding affinity to the predicted active site of the S glycoprotein; Considerable binding affinity to the predicted active site of the SARS-CoV-2 RdRp protein; Highest binding affinity to the predicted active site of nsp14; highest binding affinity to the active site of the TMPRSS2 proteinEweas et al.2021[23]IVM utilizes viral spike protein, main protease, replicase, and human TMPRSS2 receptors as the most possible targets for executing its antiviral efficiency by disrupting bindingChoudhury et al.2021[24]_Level 2: Action on Importin (IMP) superfamily_in presence of a viral infection, IVM targets the IMPα component of the IMP α/β1 heterodimer and binds to it, preventing interaction with IMP β1, subsequently blocking the nuclear transport of viral proteins.
> .
> Now I have to figure out what that means.....see you in a few days.


Looks to be a review of stuff published on Pubmed with the following conclusion:

*"Conclusion*
_Considering the urgency of the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic, simultaneous detection of various new mutant strains and future potential re-emergence of novel coronaviruses, repurposing of approved drugs such as Ivermectin could be worthy of attention."_

I don't think that there's anything new or earth-shattering there, but what the heck.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

How many people do you hear of going into the hospital with Covid?

How many people do you hear of going into the hospital with side effects from the vaccine?

There's a couple of questions you may want to ask yourself. As always, consult your doctor about any personal conditions you may have before taking any medication.


----------



## laristotle

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1295838036605902848


----------



## tonewoody

laristotle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1295838036605902848


Don't quit your day job...


----------



## laristotle

tonewoody said:


> Don't quit your day job...


----------



## HighNoon

allthumbs56 said:


> Looks to be a review of stuff published on Pubmed with the following conclusion:
> 
> *"Conclusion*
> _Considering the urgency of the ongoing COVID-19 pandemic, simultaneous detection of various new mutant strains and future potential re-emergence of novel coronaviruses, repurposing of approved drugs such as Ivermectin could be worthy of attention."_
> 
> I don't think that there's anything new or earth-shattering there, but what the heck.


The question put forth by Adcandour was how does ivermectin stop the entry of viral proteins into the host cell nucleus. So I looked at some studies for awhile, and then found this breakdown showing the process. It was a question, with a response related to that question. If you could break down for everyone what the chemical reactions are, especially in relation to the Ace2 receptor, that would be of assistance.


----------



## Grainslayer

laristotle said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1295838036605902848


Im sure someone was more offended that he used the word "woman" to describe the person rather than her age.🤪


----------



## isoneedacoffee

This recent article from the CBC does an excellent job of showing what is going on in Alberta in terms of hospital admissions. It breaks it down by age, and by degree of vaccination. The results are astounding. If you read the article carefully and still are worried more about the vaccine than COVID itself, I'm at a loss.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-severe-outcomes-covid-vaccination-1.6178449


----------



## Choo5440

Just wanting to add a few more points for anyone wanting to use ivermectin for it's potential antiviral properties.

All drugs have what is known as a therapeutic range, and effective range.

Effective range refers to the amount of drug needed to do what you want it to do
therapeutic range refers to the 'safe' range of the drug - basically the point where the drug will begin to do harm to you

(there is also toxic range - the dose that will cause sickness, and lethal range -the doses that will kill you)

many of you will recognize this kind of wording

Regular strength: 325-650 mg PO/PR q4hr PRN; not to exceed 3250 mg/day; under supervision of healthcare professional, daily doses of up to 4 g/day may be used
325-650mg is the effective dose, therapeutic range is the maximum dose in the time allotment

according to a study published last year, therapeutic range of ivermectin is in the 20-80ng/mL (nanograms/millilitre) in a person's blood. For effective range, doses are needed in the mg (milligram) range. That is at least 1 million times the safe dose range. citation

Until either a more targeted delivery system can be devised, or a new formulation that boosts the antiviral properties, ivermectin is best saved for anyone who has parasitic worms.


----------



## HighNoon

Choo5440 said:


> Just wanting to add a few more points for anyone wanting to use ivermectin for it's potential antiviral properties.
> 
> All drugs have what is known as a therapeutic range, and effective range.
> 
> Effective range refers to the amount of drug needed to do what you want it to do
> therapeutic range refers to the 'safe' range of the drug - basically the point where the drug will begin to do harm to you
> 
> (there is also toxic range - the dose that will cause sickness, and lethal range -the doses that will kill you)
> 
> many of you will recognize this kind of wording
> 
> Regular strength: 325-650 mg PO/PR q4hr PRN; not to exceed 3250 mg/day; under supervision of healthcare professional, daily doses of up to 4 g/day may be used
> 325-650mg is the effective dose, therapeutic range is the maximum dose in the time allotment
> 
> according to a study published last year, therapeutic range of ivermectin is in the 20-80ng/mL (nanograms/millilitre) in a person's blood. For effective range, doses are needed in the mg (milligram) range. That is at least 1 million times the safe dose range. citation
> 
> Until either a more targeted delivery system can be devised, or a new formulation that boosts the antiviral properties, ivermectin is best saved for anyone who has parasitic worms.


The dosage they've been using in India, Zimbabwe, Peru, Argentina, Croatia etc etc. is 0.2mg per kg of body weight. For lymphatic filarisis (elephantitis) which is some nasty stuff, they go up to 0.4 mg per kg of body weight. For Covid there are different protocols depending on which country you're in....ivermectin and doxycycline, or ivermectin and doxy and vitamin C and D and zinc....in the States the FLCCC use ivermectin, prednisone, zinc, monoclonal antibodies, fluvoxamine etc. They did mention they had to up dosages to keep up with the Delta variant. The Argentina study from last year is interesting reading.
file:///C:/Users/HP22019/Downloads/SSRN-id3714649.pdf

And the FLCCC's homepage have different treatments, depending on where you are in disease progression. And they've treated thousands of patients.





Treatment Protocols - FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance


COVID-19 is a treatable disease, when caught early and treated appropriately. While there is no “magic bullet,” a number of therapies and drugs with different mechanisms of action have been shown to work during various phases of the disease. The protocols on this page represent our recommended...




covid19criticalcare.com





file:///C:/Users/HP22019/Downloads/SSRN-id3714649.pdf


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Why is there discussion on "vaccine passports"? We all have something in place already. Every one of us has an immunization record, which is a list of all the vaccines we have received. You need it for a lot of things. Entering school, travel, etc. We don't need a duplication of something already in place. It would also mitigate the need for debate on the issue. Just add another immunization to the record we already have.


----------



## gtrguy

HighNoon said:


> The dosage they've been using in India, Zimbabwe, Peru, Argentina, Croatia etc etc. is 0.2mg per kg of body weight. For lymphatic filarisis (elephantitis) which is some nasty stuff, they go up to 0.4 mg per kg of body weight. For Covid there are different protocols depending on which country you're in....ivermectin and doxycycline, or ivermectin and doxy and vitamin C and D and zinc....in the States the FLCCC use ivermectin, prednisone, zinc, monoclonal antibodies, fluvoxamine etc. They did mention they had to up dosages to keep up with the Delta variant. The Argentina study from last year is interesting reading.
> file:///C:/Users/HP22019/Downloads/SSRN-id3714649.pdf
> 
> And the FLCCC's homepage have different treatments, depending on where you are in disease progression. And they've treated thousands of patients.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Treatment Protocols - FLCCC | Front Line COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance
> 
> 
> COVID-19 is a treatable disease, when caught early and treated appropriately. While there is no “magic bullet,” a number of therapies and drugs with different mechanisms of action have been shown to work during various phases of the disease. The protocols on this page represent our recommended...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid19criticalcare.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> file:///C:/Users/HP22019/Downloads/SSRN-id3714649.pdf


No offence man but it seems like your off in the weeds looking in detail at every claim you can find regardless of its legitimacy and I’m not sure you’re doing yourself any favours. It’s not like the FLCCC is an established body with a history and track record of research. 

Too much information can be overwhelming and may not be useful, especially if you give weight to stuff that’s unproven. Not all sources are equal.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

An important public announcement:

This global pandemic will not be solved by hobby science researchers on a guitar forum. 

Sorry to burst anyone’s ego.


----------



## HighNoon

gtrguy said:


> No offence man but it seems like your off in the weeds looking in detail at every claim you can find regardless of its legitimacy and I’m not sure you’re doing yourself any favours. It’s not like the FLCCC is an established body with a history and track record of research.
> 
> Too much information can be overwhelming and may not be useful, especially if you give weight to stuff that’s unproven. Not all sources are equal.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


The Argentina study from last year is interesting reading. Although there weren't a large number of people involved, it's still a well laid out study and of interest. You can read it....or not.

The FLCCC are a consortium of doctors who have been on the front line dealing with Covid since it started. Real time data in the real world, with real patients. And they have been very open about communicating, from their experience, what works and what doesn't, and what they've learned from other doctors and scientists from around the world. 

Ivermectin is just one piece of their treatment plans. A drug with an excellent safety record, that's been given to people over 4 billion times around the world. It's also a winner of the 2015 Nobel prize for medicine, and on the WHO's list of essential medicines for the world. 

You've got people suffering and dying. Here's a drug with an incredibly low risk profile that could help. Try it and find out.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

HighNoon said:


> You've got people suffering and dying. Here's a drug with an incredibly low risk profile that could help. Try it and find out.


Weird. That’s what 99% of the world’s scientists have been saying about the vaccine. 

But why trust them when you’ve got social media, YouTube, and forums to read?


----------



## HighNoon

isoneedacoffee said:


> An important public announcement:
> 
> This global pandemic will not be solved by hobby science researchers on a guitar forum.
> 
> Sorry to burst anyone’s ego.


Do you stick with G C and D....how about E A and B. You learn when to put in a minor 3rd, and the relative 6 minor or when to use a diminished chord, or a raised 9 or the cycle of 5ths. Why endeavor to transcribe a Charlie Parker solo....because it makes you a better player. 

This is the Covid thread. Do you have a problem with exchanging information or some data from around the world about what we are all dealing with. It's really interesting stuff. Aren't you interested in interesting stuff and an open discussion about that interesting stuff.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

HighNoon said:


> Ivermectin is just one piece of their treatment plans.


The operative word there is "treatment".
The whole point of vaccination is "preventing"

You want a cure for an ailment, or do you not want to get the ailment at all (or such a mild case you don't need a "treatment")?


----------



## HighNoon

Jim DaddyO said:


> The operative word there is "treatment".
> The whole point of vaccination is "preventing"
> 
> You want a cure for an ailment, or do you not want to get the ailment at all (or such a mild case you don't need a "treatment")?


I think we've touched on this along the way. Yes, vaccination is a method of preventing disease, and although not perfect, it's better than getting smallpox or polio or yellow fever or whatever. This vaccine is especially leaky and although a technological marvel, is showing, as evidenced from around the world, not quite ready for prime time. Although I would suggest it for any high risk individual, especially the elderly. Now with treatment that works, you can survive and have a robust and long lasting immunity to the disease, much better than this vaccine. It's your personal call. As with any pandemic it's always a work in progress, and the methodologies used along this path, should always be scrutinized and questioned.


----------



## JBFairthorne

So people that got COVID and recovered have a robust and long lasting immunity? Nonsense.


----------



## HighNoon

JBFairthorne said:


> So people that got COVID and recovered have a robust and long lasting immunity? Nonsense.


Specifically C4 T cel response to covid proteins.

C8 Tcel which targets the nuclear protein, something the vaccines do not.


----------



## Mikev7305

Does anyone here actually believe that vaccine immunity is better than natural immunity?


----------



## HighNoon

JBFairthorne said:


> So people that got COVID and recovered have a robust and long lasting immunity? Nonsense.


The researchers found durable immune responses in the majority of people studied. Antibodies against the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, which the virus uses to get inside cells, were found in 98% of participants one month after symptom onset. As seen in previous studies, the number of antibodies ranged widely between individuals. But, promisingly, their levels remained fairly stable over time, declining only modestly at 6 to 8 months after infection.
Virus-specific B cells increased over time. People had more memory B cells six months after symptom onset than at one month afterwards. Although the number of these cells appeared to reach a plateau after a few months, levels didn’t decline over the period studied.
Levels of T cells for the virus also remained high after infection. Six months after symptom onset, 92% of participants had CD4+ T cells that recognized the virus. These cells help coordinate the immune response. About half the participants had CD8+ T cells, which kill cells that are infected by the virus.









Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19


The immune systems of more than 95% of people who recovered from COVID-19 had durable memories of the virus up to eight months after infection.




www.nih.gov


----------



## HighNoon

Mikev7305 said:


> Does anyone here actually believe that vaccine immunity is better than natural immunity?


100,000 years of evolution down the tubes.


----------



## JBFairthorne

Spam studies and stats all you like. There is NO immunity to COVID, long lasting or otherwise, neither through exposure nor vaccination. All you’re doing in muddying the waters. Let’s just say that I’m glad people aren’t going to you for medical advice.


----------



## Choo5440

I have had patients who were in for the first wave with the original strain. A statistically significant number have returned with subsequent variants (mainly the UK one), and we're beginning to see the same thing with the delta variant. 

I've also had co workers ready positive early in the pandemic (right around March /April last year) who were recruited into a study for anti body research. By Christmas last year, they had next to no evidence of covid in their systems.


----------



## HighNoon

[/QUOTE]


Choo5440 said:


> I have had patients who were in for the first wave with the original strain. A statistically significant number have returned with subsequent variants (mainly the UK one), and we're beginning to see the same thing with the delta variant.
> 
> I've also had co workers ready positive early in the pandemic (right around March /April last year) who were recruited into a study for anti body research. By Christmas last year, they had next to no evidence of covid in their systems.


It would be interesting to know any further data you have....age, gender, co-morbidities, prophylactics used or not.....and I'm guessing co-workers would have been hit by a pretty heavy viral load in the first place.


----------



## tonewoody

HighNoon said:


> This is the Covid thread. Do you have a problem with exchanging information or some data from around the world about what we are all dealing with. It's really interesting stuff. Aren't you interested in interesting stuff and an open discussion about that interesting stuff.


Actually, this is the Covid 19 Update thread.

Please start your own thread. Call it what you like, "interesting stuff I know about Covid, for your consideration". ?

You are hijacking this thread. Dominating the conversation with your "insights". Relentlessly...

I think it is time to respect the members who want to talk about current Covid updates without your constant highly questionable input.

So, make your own thread and post whatever. Let people have the choice to participate in "your conversation" and stop hijacking this one.


----------



## HighNoon

tonewoody said:


> Actually, this is the Covid 19 Update thread.
> 
> Please start your own thread. Call it what you like, "interesting stuff I about Covid, for your consideration".
> 
> You are hijacking this thread. Dominating the conversation with your "insights". Relentlessly...
> 
> I think it is time to respect the members who want to talk about current Covid updates without your constant highly questionable input.
> 
> So, make your own thread and post whatever. Let people have the choice to participate in "your conversation" and don't post in this one.


So updates are just numbers of cases, the numbers of vaccinated, and that's it. No room for data or studies or other 'insights' as you say, or personal experiences like the one just posted by Choo5440 or someone who had a good or not so good reaction to the vaccine. And there was a real good discussion started by Adcandour about understanding the chemistry behind the actions of the virus in regard to certain treatments, and the dynamics of the evolutionary aspects of the disease. You're right though....who would want to talk about interesting stuff....


----------



## gtrguy

tonewoody said:


> Actually, this is the Covid 19 Update thread.
> 
> Please start your own thread. Call it what you like, "interesting stuff I know about Covid, for your consideration". ?
> 
> You are hijacking this thread. Dominating the conversation with your "insights". Relentlessly...
> 
> I think it is time to respect the members who want to talk about current Covid updates without your constant highly questionable input.
> 
> So, make your own thread and post whatever. Let people have the choice to participate in "your conversation" and stop hijacking this one.


The ignore function works wonders.


----------



## Jim Wellington

JBFairthorne said:


> So people that got COVID and recovered have a robust and long lasting immunity? Nonsense.


So people who get the vaccine once have a long lasting immunity? Nonesense. Here come the boosters shots and a nice little card that says yo have to stay home if you dont comply.


----------



## Jim Wellington

tonewoody said:


> Actually, this is the Covid 19 Update thread.
> 
> Please start your own thread. Call it what you like, "interesting stuff I know about Covid, for your consideration". ?
> 
> You are hijacking this thread. Dominating the conversation with your "insights". Relentlessly...
> 
> I think it is time to respect the members who want to talk about current Covid updates without your constant highly questionable input.
> 
> So, make your own thread and post whatever. Let people have the choice to participate in "your conversation" and stop hijacking this one.


All you`ve offerered to the thread is "don`t quit your day job"...and..."Your not welcome here"..talk about useless input .

Your comments say volumes regarding your inability to look past the narrative you`ve adopted. Open conversation around any topic is what we`ve always done to foster evolution and growth.


----------



## JBFairthorne

Jim Wellington said:


> So people who get the vaccine once have a long lasting immunity? Nonesense. Here come the boosters shots and a nice little card that says yo have to stay home if you dont comply.


Did I say those who got vaccinated DID have a long lasting immunity? I’m not sure how me saying those that have had COVID do not gain a long lasting immunity magically turned into me saying that the vaccinated DID gain long lasting immunity.

Perhaps you can refrain from putting words into my mouth? In fact, I agree with you. Realistically, at this time, there is NO such thing as long lasting immunity in any circumstance. I’ve been saying that it was probably going to be a booster shot situation with this years suspected variants similar to a flu shot for some time now.


----------



## tonewoody

Jim Wellington said:


> All you`ve offerered to the thread is "don`t quit your day job"...and..."Your not welcome here"..talk about useless input .
> 
> Your comments say volumes regarding your inability to look past the narrative you`ve adopted. Open conversation around any topic is what we`ve always done to foster evolution and growth.


Spare me man. Your knee jerk assessment of my input is twisted BS. My input is plain to see, "all" the posts are there to reference.

Your response "speaks volumes". I think everybody appreciates you have an agenda. Your high and mighty justifications?

Yeah, no, spare me...


----------



## tonewoody

HighNoon said:


> So updates are just numbers of cases, the numbers of vaccinated, and that's it. No room for data or studies or other 'insights' as you say, or personal experiences like the one just posted by Choo5440 or someone who had a good or not so good reaction to the vaccine. And there was a real good discussion started by Adcandour about understanding the chemistry behind the actions of the virus in regard to certain treatments, and the dynamics of the evolutionary aspects of the disease. You're right though....who would want to talk about interesting stuff....


No, just your input. Start your own thread.


----------



## markxander

gtrguy said:


> The ignore function works wonders.


I've ignored too many of the maniacs and now reading this thread doesn't make sense. I think at this point I'm seeing less than half of the posts. Worth it.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

JBFairthorne said:


> Did I say those who got vaccinated DID have a long lasting immunity? I’m not sure how me saying those that have had COVID do not gain a long lasting immunity magically turned into me saying that the vaccinated DID gain long lasting immunity.
> 
> Perhaps you can refrain from putting words into my mouth?


There are people here who want to come across as scientific experts but can't seem to properly read. 



tonewoody said:


> No, just your input. Start your own thread.


I would call it "Funny Farm: Horse Medicine and Bull Poop"


----------



## allthumbs56

Bottom line is that we are learning new stuff every day. No one knows how long anything is good for or to what degree. My ex-wife's parents contracted coved early on (last April) and both recovered - her dad fully, her mom suffered enough lung damage that she carries an oxygen tank around now. How "naturally immune" are they now? Who knows. I did read awhile ago that they (infamous) believed that one shot would give a person that had recovered as much or more protection as 2 doses. But again - this is all unchartered territory. Maybe natural immunity is better than the vaccine but to achieve that first you have to catch covid and then survive it. That might be true - but it's just not doable - do we wait ten years to give everybody the chance or maybe just expose everybody? Fill the stadiums with patients and see which ones make it? Of course not. People think that there are other drugs that can help (Ivermectin, etc) but there is no consensus amongst doctors or scientists. The consensus is for vaccines. The numbers support their success.

My rabid anti-vaxxer SIL sent me an article this morning stating that it all had to do with the Jews and the Cabal/Great Reset. F**k me.

Go get jabbed - nine out of ten choosy doctors prefer it 👍


----------



## sulphur

That's interesting about those heathcare workers testing negative after contracting covid.

I had a killer flu last year, the end of Febuary - beginning of March.
My pulmonary function wasn't the best beforehand, but after that bout of sickness, I was never the same.
A cough that lasted six months or better, I had quit smoking for a couple of years by that time and the coughing had subsided.
It was like I was smoking full time all over again with a chronic cough. My lungs are shot now, not on O2, but next to it.

I didn't get an antibody test until the beginning of this year and tested negative. I thought for sure that I had a bout of the C19.

Here's more of the death cult for those on the fence...


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Mikev7305 said:


> Does anyone here actually believe that vaccine immunity is better than natural immunity?


Yes, because with one, I don’t have to actually catch the fucking disease.


----------



## Wardo

2manyGuitars said:


> Yes, because with one, I don’t have to actually catch the fucking disease.


That is about the most intelligent statement that I have ever read on the fucking internets.


----------



## tonewoody

sulphur said:


> Here's more of the death cult for those on the fence...


Schadenfreude, the last laugh...

The human species, so much potential. Hard to watch it all get marginalized by magical thinking, arrogance and selfish stupidity.


----------



## Wardo

tonewoody said:


> . .. magical thinking, arrogance and selfish stupidity.


Along with “sunny ways my friends, sunny ways.”


----------



## 2manyGuitars

sulphur said:


> Here's more of the death cult for those on the fence...











r/HermanCainAward


r/HermanCainAward: Nominees have made public declaration of their anti-mask, anti-vax, or Covid-hoax views, followed by admission to hospital for …




www.reddit.com


----------



## player99

Horse dewormer works, but you need to ingest horse worms first.


----------



## MetalTele79

I'm a contact tracer for healthcare workers. If you get COVID we consider you to be immune for 90 days... after that, we can't be sure and we have to trace for symptoms and exposures as normal. I've seen a bunch of people get COVID twice (including a child under the age of 2). The vaccine protection, while not perfect, lasts longer and if you do get sick you symptoms are less severe. I've seen fully vaccinated people get COVID but none of them have been severely symptomatic.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

Mikev7305 said:


> Does anyone here actually believe that vaccine immunity is better than natural immunity?


Read the chart carefully. Your answer is right there. It's as clear as an empty vial.









I linked to this article beforehand, but in case you missed it, all the context and charts are here: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/alberta-severe-outcomes-covid-vaccination-1.6178449


----------



## mhammer

The difference between vaccine-elicited immunity and "natural" immunity is misunderstood. If a person was previously infected, yes they developed some degree of immunity. But hold up a second. Just how sick _were_ they? Based on what we know so far about this virus, if they weren't sick enough to show up at hospital, then they weren't all that infected. It's not that they were seriously infected and their immune system charged through like Jackson Jeffcoat and Willie Jefferson on amphetamines to sack the virus. The basis of vaccine-prompted immunization is that the vaccine provides the _functional equivalent_ of a serious infection, in terms of information for your immune system to learn from, without the risks associated with a serious infection. I suppose IF a person had a serious Covid-19 infection and pulled through, they might have the immune response equivalent to one dose of vaccine. But then, a lot people don't come back from a serious infection. And if and when they do, I would imagine the vast majority would say that, given the choice, they'd rather have a sore shoulder for a day and a half than a tube down their throat for a few weeks.

Do people WANT this thing to go away, or not? Sometimes I wonder if some folks' loyalty to their pet theories, or some isolated symbol of their "freedom", is stronger than their desire to end the pandemic. Sometimes it feels like the boat is filling up with water, and everyone is arguing about whether bailing is done better with a ladle or a mug, with the ladle folks declaring that they don't want to sully their drinking mugs with that yucky sea-water..


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> I suppose IF a person had a serious Covid-19 infection and pulled through, they might have the immune response equivalent to one dose of vaccine.



But just think, if you had a bad enough infection to equal 2 doses of vaccine, it could make it so you never ever caught anything again...except maybe worm bites and decomposition!

If you automatically reject everything authorities say, it does not make you a critical thinker.

I guess my sarcasm is working today.


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> But just think, if you had a bad enough infection to equal 2 doses of vaccine, it could make it so you never ever caught anything again...except maybe worm bites and decomposition!
> 
> If you automatically reject everything authorities say, it does not make you a critical thinker.
> 
> I guess my sarcasm is working today.


It's working perfectly, Jim.
And yes, in the same way that some can think that smashing windows is "political" comment/action, people can misconstrue mere contrarianism as "critical thinking".


----------



## isoneedacoffee

Jim DaddyO said:


> If you automatically reject everything authorities say, it does not make you a critical thinker.


After this pandemic is over, I wonder whether these "critical thinkers" will now devote their brain energy to studying things such as the structural plans of their local bridges to make sure they are safe. Why trust qualified engineers when you can do internet research with a bag of Doritos in your basement?


----------



## tonewoody

Recognize these "attributes" of character within yourself or others?
This is the main underlying reason why thoughtful discussion is sidelined.
Humans, haha, A concience is for losers...
(skip ads, skip 1st 30 seconds...)

Sadly, disputes from any point of view on the lower levels indicates that you are a dedicated pawn in the game. Build bridges, Aim higher...


----------



## silvertonebetty

We are back to masks . I hate it but it doesn’t really effect me at work. At one place I know it was “ if there’s no costumers I didn’t need one” and that’s not an issue I’m normally done cleaning the front of the store before we open and then the rest of my shift I clean the back shop. At the new place I’m not directly with people and just normally wash the dishes but if I go to clean off a table I need the mask and I’m fine with that because it’s no more than a few minutes and if I wouldn’t get so warm at either job I wouldn’t mind wearing one all day but I just feel like I’m going to die of heat 😂.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

mhammer said:


> Sometimes it feels like the boat is filling up with water, and everyone is arguing about whether bailing is done better with a ladle or a mug, with the ladle folks declaring that they don't want to sully their drinking mugs with that yucky sea-water..


It’s more like most people are bailing while others are arguing it’s their right to have holes in the boat.


----------



## allthumbs56

Midnight Rider said:


> Time will tell who was correct or incorrect,... it is the only way this debate will be settled.


There are the vaccinated and there are the unvaccinated. Every day there are more of the former and less of the latter. Any argument being made can only sway the position of the unvaccinated - the vaccinated can't say "oh you win the argument, I'm going to get this juice sucked out of my blood". We look to the news to see if the battle we joined is being won. The unvaccinated looked for another reason to justify their refusal - to save face, I suppose - because to accept the data is to admit to being wrong - and that's never easy.


----------



## laristotle

Or they just _choose _not to get it? No justification required.


----------



## tonewoody

https://www.microcovid.org/


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> Or they just _choose _not to get it? No justification required.


A possibility I suppose. However the few people I know who are refusing to get jabbed are pretty vocal about it - lots of memes and stoopid article links. Mostly they have not "chosen" to not get jabbed - they are "waiting" for the "proof" that will finally convince them - so they say.


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> Mostly they have not "chosen" to not get jabbed - they are "waiting" for the "proof" that will finally convince them - so they say.


That's their choice, eh?


----------



## Milkman

laristotle said:


> That's their choice, eh?


My choice is not to be exposed to a potentially life thretening virus because of someone else's choice. As long as people don't get in my face about it I'll do the same. I'm totally fine with businesses deciding not to allow unmasked or even unvaccinated patrons in their doors.


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> That's their choice, eh?


By my calculations 151,000 more Canadians got their first jab over the weekend. Guess they finally found something to convince them.

And then there's the 6,000 and some odd unvaccinated Canadians who tested positive over the weekend. I wonder how many of them would like to go back and choose differently?


----------



## Paul Running

Vaccine identifier








Herd immunity


----------



## 2manyGuitars

allthumbs56 said:


> I wonder how many of them would like to go back and choose differently?


Shockingly, not as many as a sane human being would hope.


----------



## Milkman

2manyGuitars said:


> Shockingly, not as many as a sane human being would hope.


Yeah when you have people laying in the ICU and/or on a ventilator STILL singing the "my rights and freedoms" mantra, you're dealing with a special brand of stupid.


----------



## Choo5440

The stories I hear from my ICU nurse friends, where patients:
are getting breathing tubes down their throats and STILL denying that covid exists boggles my mind.
Or the ones that can't deal and need to be placed under extra heavy sedation to prevent them from pulling out the breathing tubes.
Or the under 40 year old guy that needed a double lung transplant after a bout of covid.

...ugh.


----------



## tomee2

laristotle said:


> That's their choice, eh?


I guess they're the kind of people that choose which stop signs to stop at, what time of day to slow down in a school zone, when they're ok to drive after drinking, when to smoke in a car with their kids. Can't stop those people from their freedoms can we. 
But seriously, if they choose to not get vaccinated then please stay home, order all your food to be delivered and stay away from people until the hospitals are no longer full of UNVACCINATED people with covid.


----------



## allthumbs56

tomee2 said:


> I guess they're the kind of people that choose which stop signs to stop at, what time of day to slow down in a school zone, when they're ok to drive after drinking, when to smoke in a car with their kids. Can't stop those people from their freedoms can we.
> But seriously, if they choose to not get vaccinated then please stay home, order all your food to be delivered and stay away from people until the hospitals are no longer full of people with covid.


Six months ago 1 in 12 Americans had contracted covid. Today that's at 1 in 8. Pretty sure every American will have the opportunity to catch it over the next 24 months.


----------



## Wardo

Both of my law clerks are in their early 30 and agnostic about vaccination.
A couple of weeks ago we were talking and turns out neither of them had ever heard of polio.
I said go and google “iron lung.”


----------



## allthumbs56

Wardo said:


> Both of my law clerks are in their early 30 and agnostic about vaccination.
> A couple of weeks ago we were talking and turns out neither of them had ever heard of polio.
> I said go and google “iron lung.”


Have they been vaccinated?


----------



## Wardo

allthumbs56 said:


> Have they been vaccinated?


Nyet.


----------



## jb welder

allthumbs56 said:


> Six months ago 1 in 12 Americans had contracted covid. Today that's at 1 in 8.


And about 1 in 500 have died from it. Amazing how many think that sounds like good odds.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Remember how measles was pretty much relegated to the history books until people started believing everything the internet told them. Now this COVID thing has made that look like the minor leagues.


----------



## tomee2

Wardo said:


> Both of my law clerks are in their early 30 and agnostic about vaccination.
> A couple of weeks ago





2manyGuitars said:


> Remember how measles was pretty much relegated to the history books until people started believing everything the internet told them. Now this COVID thing has made that look like the minor leagues.


I had a weird lunchtime discussion a few years back about measles vaccines...it went something like "I've never known anyone that died from measles, it can't be that serious. The vaccine must be given for some other reason they won't tell you" seriously.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

jb welder said:


> And about 1 in 500 have died from it. Amazing how many think that sounds like good odds.


Not sure where you’re getting your numbers from, but the widely accepted number is around 3.5% or 1 in 30. Quite a bit off from 1 in 500.


















And BTW, death isn’t the only outcome you know.
There are a LOT of diseases that won’t kill me that I want no part of.

EDIT: Someone pointed out that the stat @jb welder may have been citing was 1 in 500 of the general population, not 1 in 500 COVID patients. My apologies.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

And remember at the beginning, the whole “flatten the curve” mantra? The whole point was to not overwhelm the health care system in order to keep the mortality rate that low. I think Alberta is about to see what happens when the hospitals can’t keep up.

_IF_ the hospital has the capacity to give all of the COVID patients an appropriate level of care, then yeah, “duh, oNly TwO peRcEnt Of tHe PeOpLe DiE”. We’re about to find out what happens to that death rate when hospitals have to start treating patients in hallways, lobbies, and bussing them to other cities or even provinces. In fact, the death rate WAS in the 1 to 2% range even at the height of the pandemic in 2020. The rate has nearly doubled due to the above scenario playing out in the COVID ignorant areas of the US.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Someone is really gunning for me,... another post deleted. That's it for me,... I'm out.


----------



## sulphur

2manyGuitars said:


> And remember at the beginning, the whole “flatten the curve” mantra? The whole point was to not overwhelm the health care system in order to keep the mortality rate that low. I think Alberta is about to see what happens when the hospitals can’t keep up.
> 
> _IF_ the hospital has the capacity to give all of the COVID patients an appropriate level of care, then yeah, “duh, oNly TwO peRcEnt Of tHe PeOpLe DiE”. We’re about to find out what happens to that death rate when hospitals have to start treating patients in hallways, lobbies, and bussing them to other cities or even provinces. In fact, the death rate WAS in the 1 to 2% range even at the height of the pandemic in 2020. The rate has nearly doubled due to the above scenario playing out in the COVID ignorant areas of the US.


I recently read that the Alberta ICUs were at almost 130% capacity, so overwhelmed.
They had reached out to BC and Ontario for help to no avail. I think that Saskatchewan is in the same boat.

Something that's not factored is all of the treatments that have been postponed due to the hospitals being over-run and the ultimate related deaths.


----------



## Milkman

sulphur said:


> I recently read that the Alberta ICUs were at almost 130% capacity, so overwhelmed.
> They had reached out to BC and Ontario for help to no avail. I think that Saskatchewan is in the same boat.
> 
> Something that's not factored is all of the treatments that have been postponed due to the hospitals being over-run and the ultimate related deaths.



That is definitely happening and people are certainly noting it. Also, lots of people are making judgments about whether or not to go to emerg when they're having mild chest pains et cetera, decisions they would likely make differently if not for covid.


----------



## tomee2

2manyGuitars said:


> Not sure where you’re getting your numbers from, but the widely accepted number is around 3.5% or 1 in 30. Quite a bit off from 1 in 500.
> View attachment 380581
> 
> 
> View attachment 380582
> 
> 
> And BTW, death isn’t the only outcome you know.
> There are a LOT of diseases that won’t kill me that I want no part of.


I think in the US they're now at 1 in 500 citizens have died from it. I heard that on NPR the other day, reported as a grim milestone.
I don't think it was brought up as a stat of deaths per case.


----------



## player99

Midnight Rider said:


> Someone is really gunning for me,... another post deleted. That's it for me,... I'm out.


What's going on?


----------



## player99

Only 2% of the poor countries have 1 shot. How long until a new super variant is mutated and isn't stopped by our vaccines? Then the human race is truly fucked.


----------



## laristotle

Rich countries want their boosters first.
First world problems, don'cha know?


----------



## 2manyGuitars

tomee2 said:


> I think in the US they're now at 1 in 500 citizens have died from it. I heard that on NPR the other day, reported as a grim milestone.
> I don't think it was brought up as a stat of deaths per case.


Ah, I misread that.
I added an edit to my post. Thanks


----------



## allthumbs56

tomee2 said:


> I think in the US they're now at 1 in 500 citizens have died from it. I heard that on NPR the other day, reported as a grim milestone.
> I don't think it was brought up as a stat of deaths per case.


Yeah - that's 1 in 500 of all citizens - including those who have not been infected. When the "1 in 8" becomes "8 in 8" this number will look a whole lot worse. Those that believe they have super-immune systems excluded of course.


----------



## laristotle

Take it how you wish.


----------



## zztomato

laristotle said:


> Take it how you wish.


Ah ok. Just trolling then. Gotcha.


----------



## SWLABR

I miss the library. At least they had the decency to separate the Fiction from the Non-Fiction.


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> Take it how you wish.


Easiest way to counter that is with real, raw data. From Ontario's Covid Website:

*In ICU*

Unvaccinated: 107
Partially vaccinated: 9
Fully vaccinated: 9


*In hospital but not the ICU*

Unvaccinated: 122
Partially vaccinated: 10
Fully vaccinated: 27






Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue







covid-19.ontario.ca





Vaccines are working. Can't help it if the nutjobs are circling their wagons and getting louder.


----------



## GuitarT

zztomato said:


> WTF is this? Are you posting this for a laugh? They find some wacko that says the vaccine is "full of shit" (I guess this is a technical term used by only the finest medical professionals) and they make her out to be somehow "in the know" and must have a more valid opinion than 99.99% of her colleagues?


 I didn't watch the video so I'm not familiar with what's in it but I do see it's by Project Veritas so personally I'd take it all with a grain of salt. They've been around for years and have a reputation for being intentionally misleading on a lot of political issues. I'm sure if you Google them there's probably lots of info on them. I know they've had a lot of legal troubles over the years.


----------



## laristotle

zztomato said:


> Ah ok. Just trolling then. Gotcha.


----------



## laristotle

GuitarT said:


> I know they've had a lot of legal troubles over the years.


And they've won all the court battles that they filed against their detractors.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

laristotle said:


> View attachment 380640


If you look closely, the arrows for "Alternative Viewpoints" are directing people to walk straight into the poles. Thank you for this image. I think it says it all.

Last night I was watching the news and I saw a report about a protest outside of Toronto General Hospital. One of the signs said "I KNOW MORE THAN SCIENISTS". And yes, it was spelled exactly like that. 🤦‍♂️


----------



## laristotle

isoneedacoffee said:


> Last night I was watching the news and I saw a report about a protest outside of Toronto General Hospital. One of the signs said "I KNOW MORE THAN SCIENISTS". And yes, it was spelled exactly like that. 🤦‍♂️











Love grammar and punctuation too. lol


----------



## tonewoody

A real Anti-vaxxer would proudly carry a signed card in their wallet.

"No O2. Please Do Not Ventilate" 

...Talk is cheap, walk the walk.


----------



## zztomato

laristotle said:


> View attachment 380640


But you're not really articulating an alternate viewpoint. You're posting crap and re-posting videos that don't have an alternate viewpoint but actually have their own self interest. It's not adding to the conversation. It's just childish attention seeking.


----------



## GuitarT

laristotle said:


> And they've won all the court battles that they filed against their detractors.


But they haven't won all the court battles their detractors have filed against them.


----------



## laristotle

isoneedacoffee said:


> If you look closely, the arrows for "Alternative Viewpoints" are directing people to walk straight into the poles.


like this? lol


----------



## JBFairthorne

SWLABR said:


> I miss the library. At least they had the decency to separate the Fiction from the Non-Fiction.


Honestly, I just miss the library.


----------



## numb41

zztomato said:


> But you're not really articulating an alternate viewpoint. You're posting crap and re-posting videos that don't have an alternate viewpoint but actually have their own self interest. It's not adding to the conversation. It's just childish attention seeking.


hang on, he's probably looking for a meme to answer with.


----------



## laristotle

zztomato said:


> But you're not really articulating an alternate viewpoint. You're posting crap and re-posting videos that don't have an alternate viewpoint but actually have their own self interest. It's not adding to the conversation. It's just childish attention seeking.





numb41 said:


> hang on, he's probably looking for a meme to answer with.


----------



## JBFairthorne

It’s funny because it’s true. 👍


----------



## SWLABR

JBFairthorne said:


> Honestly, I just miss the library.


It's a dying institution I'm afraid... not because we live in a society where everything needs to be NOW NOW NOW NOW and they just can't provide it that quickly. No, it's dying because if they told someone the sshhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... they'd get brow beaten for "oppressing them". 

But I digress... 

Carry on with the COVID thingy.


----------



## tonewoody

JBFairthorne said:


> It’s funny because it’s true. 👍


----------



## JBFairthorne

My boys and I used to go almost every Saturday morning for an hour or two. They would use the computers and I would go through the zillion dvds looking for a few to take home. Then I would read the paper or a magazine or two. Occasionally we’d stumble across some special exhibit or event there.

Maybe it’s not so much the library I miss so much as the activity with my kids. They’re starting to get just past that stage so it’s the time I really miss. So many fun times, museums, theme parks, nights at the movies just gone.


----------



## Wardo

Midnight Rider said:


> Someone is really gunning for me,... another post deleted. That's it for me,... I'm out.


Yeah, this place kinda hit its straw hat day awhile back. Whens canada day it was around then that the purge started which was good timing I guess.


----------



## sulphur

Wardo said:


> Yeah, this place kinda hit its straw hat day awhile back. Whens canada day it was around then that the purge started which was good timing I guess.


Yet you keep coming back and posting though...


----------



## Wardo

sulphur said:


> Yet you keep coming back and posting though...


yeah, but as you might have noticed I never post anything of any value; just stuff that I make up on the spot. Maybe I will get banned for having the wrong attitude .. lol


----------



## sulphur

Wardo said:


> yeah, but as you might have noticed I never post anything of any value; just stuff that I make up on the spot. Maybe I will get banned for having the wrong attitude .. lol


You're right, I have noticed that.


----------



## Wardo

sulphur said:


> You're right, I have noticed that.


Congratulations. Now that you’ve figured that out there should be nothing further from you; keep smilin and try to keep breathin.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Wardo said:


> Yeah, this place kinda hit its straw hat day awhile back. Whens canada day it was around then that the purge started which was good timing I guess.


Figure I'll give it one more crack,... a bit of an experiment if you will. Let's see if the US fact based CDC (Centers For Disease Control And Prevention) VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System) data gets deleted and or lights a few heads of hair on fire.

Hopefully the skeptics will keep in mind that each number represents a person,... a mother, father, child, grandparent, aunt, uncle, cousin, fetus, etc., who trustingly held out their arm for the silver bullet injection.

What I find absolutely disgusting in all this is the fact that no one in the mainstream media cesspool wants to interview any of the the families who have lost a loved one as a result of the COVID shot. I have watched a few video interviews of families telling their stories of losing a family members and have teared up,... it's gut wrenching to hear how absolutely devastated they are,... and no one to be held responsible. No, it wasn't on mainstream media.

I know there will be some to make the ridiculous comment along the lines of, " but you know,... it's such a small percentage of people who are maimed or die". Yeah,... never a problem if it's not in their own backyard,... but how does one really know for sure it eventually won't be? Well,... they don't. 

In 2007 I had a major adverse reaction that damn near took my life and left me maimed with a list of medical issues that are irreversible,... one being a serious autoimmune disorder. I contracted Covid-19 in February of 2020 and survived without hospitalization and relied on alternative measures to help pull me through,... which I will NOT include here.

I stared death square in the eyes twice so far in my life so nothing really rattles me. My doctor is in the process of granting me a Vaccine and Vaccine Passport exemption,... however, even if she wasn't I would still rely on my innate and adaptive immune systems. I'd rather die from the bloody virus than take the vaccine with the known risks and potentially have another major adverse reaction that I know my body would not survive.

My body,... my choice,... period!

VAERS COVID Vaccine Adverse Events Reports: COVID Vaccine Data 
All VAERS Reports: All VAERS Reports - OpenVAERS
Notice the difference in the data when the Covid-19 Vaccine is compared to the Flu Vaccine.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Want Canadian content?,... last week I'm having a beverage with my neighbour when he tells me the story of his 57 year old friend who was a health fanatic dropping dead of a heart attack during one of his daily jogging routines that he's has religiously been doing for the last 25 years. He had no previous health issues and his death occurred 5 days after receiving his second Pfizer shot. After the autopsy two Health Canada officials showed up at the Widows door to have a talk with her. At the time of my neighbour telling me the story he did not know the conversation details that took place between the Widow of the deceased and Health Canada but he intends to inform me if he becomes privy to the details.


----------



## Midnight Rider

tonewoody said:


> View attachment 380650


What,... they didn't remove your post!,... lucky you.


----------



## jb welder

Midnight Rider said:


> Figure I'll give it one more crack,... a bit of an experiment if you will. Let's see if the US fact based CDC (Centers For Disease Control And Prevention) VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System) data gets deleted and or lights a few heads of hair on fire.


Nice try on misrepresenting 'reports' as actual data.
The most important part of that page is the disclaimer, which it seems you did not read (especially the "reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information" part):


*"
VAERS CDC Disclaimer*

Source: VAERS.HHS.GOV


VAERS accepts reports of adverse events and reactions that occur following vaccination. Healthcare providers, vaccine manufacturers, and the public can submit reports to the system. While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable. In large part, reports to VAERS are voluntary, which means they are subject to biases. This creates specific limitations on how the data can be used scientifically. Data from VAERS reports should always be interpreted with these limitations in mind.

The strengths of VAERS are that it is national in scope and can quickly provide an early warning of a safety problem with a vaccine. As part of CDC and FDA’s multi-system approach to post-licensure vaccine safety monitoring, VAERS is designed to rapidly detect unusual or unexpected patterns of adverse events, also known as “safety signals.” If a safety signal is found in VAERS, further studies can be done in safety systems such as the CDC’s Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) or the Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment (CISA) project. These systems do not have the same scientific limitations as VAERS, and can better assess health risks and possible connections between adverse events and a vaccine.


Key considerations and limitations of VAERS data:



Vaccine providers are encouraged to report any clinically significant health problem following vaccination to VAERS, whether or not they believe the vaccine was the cause.
Reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information.
The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted or used to reach conclusions about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines.
VAERS data is limited to vaccine adverse event reports received between 1990 and the most recent date for which data are available.
VAERS data do not represent all known safety information for a vaccine and should be interpreted in the context of other scientific information.

VAERS data available to the public include only the initial report data to VAERS. Updated data which contains data from medical records and corrections reported during follow up are used by the government for analysis. However, for numerous reasons including data consistency, these amended data are not available to the public.
"


----------



## tonewoody

Chill out...

Vaccines - Laugh and Learn
John Oliver

Coronavirus Conspiracies
John Oliver


----------



## sulphur

Before one can even search through VAERS data, it’s necessary to click past a number of disclaimers, including one that reads: “Reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information,” and another that says, plainly, “The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted or used to reach conclusions about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines. 
But there is now a webpage called the OpenVAERS Project, which “allows browsing and searching of the reports without the need to compose an advanced search,” through the official VAERS website. The OpenVAERS Project has a dedicated page to the COVID-19 vaccines.

According to a Facebook post from February 2020, OpenVAERS appears to be the project of a website called The Arkivist, which describes itself as a source for "uncensored voices and medical freedom news." By creating a site that allows users to easily search through and highlight these reports, its designers bypass the explanations that this is a passive reporting system, as well as other details that OpenVAERS apparently considers unimportant. 

*The OpenVAERS Project is “misinformation 101,” Koltai said. “It's decontextualization. I literally show examples like that in classes that I teach. You take a bit of information and you remove all the other context from it. That's common with almost any misinformation you can see.”*









Anti-Vaxxers Misuse Federal Data to Falsely Claim COVID Vaccines Are Dangerous


VAERS, a database of reports of vaccine side effects, is being abused by people trying to sow fear. It's not the first time.




www.vice.com


----------



## Midnight Rider

Midnight Rider said:


> View attachment 380721
> View attachment 380722





jb welder said:


> Nice try on misrepresenting 'reports' as actual data.
> The most important part of that page is the disclaimer, which it seems you did not read (especially the "reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information" part):
> 
> 
> *"
> VAERS CDC Disclaimer*
> 
> Source: VAERS.HHS.GOV
> 
> 
> VAERS accepts reports of adverse events and reactions that occur following vaccination. Healthcare providers, vaccine manufacturers, and the public can submit reports to the system. While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable. In large part, reports to VAERS are voluntary, which means they are subject to biases. This creates specific limitations on how the data can be used scientifically. Data from VAERS reports should always be interpreted with these limitations in mind.
> 
> The strengths of VAERS are that it is national in scope and can quickly provide an early warning of a safety problem with a vaccine. As part of CDC and FDA’s multi-system approach to post-licensure vaccine safety monitoring, VAERS is designed to rapidly detect unusual or unexpected patterns of adverse events, also known as “safety signals.” If a safety signal is found in VAERS, further studies can be done in safety systems such as the CDC’s Vaccine Safety Datalink (VSD) or the Clinical Immunization Safety Assessment (CISA) project. These systems do not have the same scientific limitations as VAERS, and can better assess health risks and possible connections between adverse events and a vaccine.
> 
> 
> Key considerations and limitations of VAERS data:
> 
> 
> 
> Vaccine providers are encouraged to report any clinically significant health problem following vaccination to VAERS, whether or not they believe the vaccine was the cause.
> Reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information.
> The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted or used to reach conclusions about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines.
> VAERS data is limited to vaccine adverse event reports received between 1990 and the most recent date for which data are available.
> VAERS data do not represent all known safety information for a vaccine and should be interpreted in the context of other scientific information.
> 
> VAERS data available to the public include only the initial report data to VAERS. Updated data which contains data from medical records and corrections reported during follow up are used by the government for analysis. However, for numerous reasons including data consistency, these amended data are not available to the public.
> "


So, everything entered on that site is a lie or made up conspiracy theory tale, lol. I guess someone should take down the CDC and VAERS websites according to your infinite medical wisdom. So, the doctors and or specialist who fill out VAERS reports along with any person who reports an adverse reaction have nothing better to do than just make up false claims of having a negative reaction or dying from one of the vaccines? Oh yeah,... the entire Covid-19 vaccine minor to serious adverse reaction thang is all just a stage of smoke and mirrors, lol. What world do you live in,... let me know so I don't accidentally take a wrong turn and visit it.

I would have bet my left nut that someone would have tried to defend these vaccines as having absolutely no severe adverse reactions whatsoever even though people have actually experienced and died from them. 

Interesting how some pound their fist on the table demanding everyone trust the science,... then when the data shows science is maiming and or killing people the Health Organizations that they worship are posting false data. Do you really think the CDC or VAERS would post this information if they themselves did not truly believe it is accurate? Do you not see how utterly stupid that the disclaimer sounds when reading it? Do you think their is ANY possibility that they are trying to cover their asses?

Thank Christ you're not my doctor, lol.


----------



## Midnight Rider

sulphur said:


> Before one can even search through VAERS data, it’s necessary to click past a number of disclaimers, including one that reads: “Reports may include incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental and unverified information,” and another that says, plainly, “The number of reports alone cannot be interpreted or used to reach conclusions about the existence, severity, frequency, or rates of problems associated with vaccines.
> But there is now a webpage called the OpenVAERS Project, which “allows browsing and searching of the reports without the need to compose an advanced search,” through the official VAERS website. The OpenVAERS Project has a dedicated page to the COVID-19 vaccines.
> 
> According to a Facebook post from February 2020, OpenVAERS appears to be the project of a website called The Arkivist, which describes itself as a source for "uncensored voices and medical freedom news." By creating a site that allows users to easily search through and highlight these reports, its designers bypass the explanations that this is a passive reporting system, as well as other details that OpenVAERS apparently considers unimportant.
> 
> *The OpenVAERS Project is “misinformation 101,” Koltai said. “It's decontextualization. I literally show examples like that in classes that I teach. You take a bit of information and you remove all the other context from it. That's common with almost any misinformation you can see.”*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anti-Vaxxers Misuse Federal Data to Falsely Claim COVID Vaccines Are Dangerous
> 
> 
> VAERS, a database of reports of vaccine side effects, is being abused by people trying to sow fear. It's not the first time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.vice.com


Keep drinking that Kool-Aid.


----------



## sulphur

Midnight Rider said:


> So, everything entered on that site is a lie or made up conspiracy theory tale, lol. I guess someone should take down the CDC and VAERS websites according to your infinite medical wisdom. So, the doctors and or specialist who fill out VAERS reports along with any person who reports an adverse reaction have nothing better to do than just make up false claims of having a negative reaction or dying from one of the vaccines? Oh yeah,... the entire Covid-19 vaccine minor to serious adverse reaction thang is all just a stage of smoke and mirrors, lol. What world do you live in,... let me know so I don't accidentally take a wrong turn and visit it.
> 
> I would have bet my left nut that someone would have tried to defend these vaccines as having absolutely no severe adverse reactions whatsoever even though people have actually experienced and died from them.
> 
> Interesting how some pound their fist on the table demanding everyone trust the science,... then when the data shows science is maiming and or killing people the Health Organizations that they worship are posting false data. Do you really think the CDC or VAERS would post this information if they themselves did not truly believe it is accurate? Do you not see how utterly stupid that the disclaimer sounds when reading it? Do you think their is ANY possibility that they are trying to cover their asses?
> 
> Thank Christ you're not my doctor, lol.


*The OpenVAERS Project is “misinformation 101,” Koltai said. “It's decontextualization. I literally show examples like that in classes that I teach. You take a bit of information and you remove all the other context from it. That's common with almost any misinformation you can see.”*

You seem to gloss over what doesn't fit your narrative.


----------



## Midnight Rider

sulphur said:


> *The OpenVAERS Project is “misinformation 101,” Koltai said. “It's decontextualization. I literally show examples like that in classes that I teach. You take a bit of information and you remove all the other context from it. That's common with almost any misinformation you can see.”*
> 
> You seem to gloss over what doesn't fit your narrative.


Yeah,... Facebook is always my #1 go to source for breaking news and truth,... then I go to Twitter, instagram and TikTok to verify it, lol.

There is no way in hell I'll ever live inside those cultural junk social media sources.


----------



## sulphur

Midnight Rider said:


> Yeah,... Facebook is always my #1 go to source for breaking news and truth,... then I go to Twitter, instagram and TikTok to verify it, lol.
> 
> There is no way in hell I'll ever live inside those cultural junk social media sources.


WTF are you talking about?
I provided a link to refute your bullshit and even pulled a few blurbs to show you what's in there.
You don't even read the links that you provide ffs.

No, you get your info from rabble and parler and all of those reliable sources.


----------



## player99

I am an independent thinker. I make up my bs independent of any source.


----------



## Midnight Rider

sulphur said:


> WTF are you talking about?
> I provided a link to refute your bullshit and even pulled a few blurbs to show you what's in there.
> You don't even read the links that you provide ffs.
> 
> No, you get your info from rabble and parler and all of those reliable sources.


I visited the link you provided which was 'Vice News'. A fish wrap news organization co-founded by Canadian 'Con Man' Shane Smith with one stake holder being George Soros of 'Soros Fund Management' and other relationships with CNN.
Shit, that's all I needed to learn about 'Vice News' to determine they are part of the extreme left mainstream news media that pretty much spews bullshit and false narratives every chance they get. VICE,... a one time punk-rock magazine trying to pose as a legitimate media company, lol.

Please tell me you are aware of who George Soros is. In case you don't hear's a hint,... he is known for funding and supporting radical leftist groups around the globe,... does ANTIFA and BLM ring a bell? But perhaps that's your thing,... I don't know for sure but some of your replies lean in that direction.

Your link is a case of,... 'Consider The Source' which wreaks of propaganda bullshit.

A little history lesson on VICE: Vice Media Was Built on a Bluff. What Happens When It Gets Called?

In April 2021, Vice Media was criticized by Cambodians for photoshopping images of the victims of the Khmer Rouge Genocide. Some victims had smilies photoshopped onto their faces. Vice later admitted to the images being photoshopped and said that "We regret the error and will investigate how this failure of the editorial process occurred."

On 3 May 2019, Vice Media announced that it raised $250 million in debt from George Soros and other investors. In October, Vice Media announced that it was acquiring Refinery29. The deal, worth a reported $400 million, valued the combined company at $4 billion. In May 2020, Vice media announced they were laying off more than 150 staff due to financial difficulties. In June 2020, Vice Media launched an investigation into allegations of subsidiary Refinery29's toxic work environment.

On 23 December 2017, The New York Times reported that there have been four settlements involving allegations of sexual harassment or defamation against Vice employees. In addition, over twenty other women stated that they had experienced or witnessed sexual misconduct, including unwanted kisses, groping, lewd remarks and propositions for sex, at the company. In a statement provided to The New York Times, Vice co-founders Shane Smith and Suroosh Alvi said, "from the top down, we have failed as a company to create a safe and inclusive workplace where everyone, especially women, can feel respected and thrive." In January 2018, it was announced that president Andrew Creighton and chief digital officer Mike Germano were suspended as the company investigated charges against them. Vice's COO/CFO Sarah Broderick sent a memo to staff on 2 January 2018 announcing the suspension of Creighton, who paid a $135,000 settlement in 2016 to a former employee who said she was fired after turning him down, and Mike Germano, who has served as chief digital officer. Germano founded Carrot Creative, which was acquired by Vice in 2013; he has been accused of pulling a former colleague onto his lap at a company party, as well as telling his former strategist Amanda Rue he originally didn't want to hire her "because he wanted to have sex with her." Vice has also been criticized by current and former employees for featuring work by Terry Richardson, a photographer facing accusations of sexual abuse by multiple models. In another documentary, a former female employee covering a story about sex workers in a developing country said Vice attempted to "sensationalize and exploit" the women depicted. In one occasion, producers requested her to go undercover as a prostitute, which she refused. She also remarks being oriented to swear more while on camera.

In January 2008, co-founder Gavin McInnes left Vice Media due to "creative differences" with the company, and founded the website streetcarnage.com. He later co-founded Rooster, an advertising agency and became a far-right activist, founding the Proud Boys.

According to Columbia Journalism Review, Vice has altered shots during the editing process in pursuit of more entertaining or impressive scenes. In a 2011 documentary on Libya, a voiceover from the reporter claim that he had gone to the frontlines amidst an offensive, while a source claims he did not make the trip, with only a cameraman going there.

VICE Media History Timeline: Vice Media History - Zippia
This is in addition to the previous 4 paragraphs. 

Yeah, they are an extremely reliable news source and they got you hook, line and sinker, lol.


----------



## Milkman

I'll miss you guys.


----------



## gtrguy

Milkman said:


> I'll miss you guys.


Like a hole in the head?


----------



## Milkman

gtrguy said:


> Like a hole in the head?


Nah, they both contribute and have opinions I consider when it comes to guitar stuff.


----------



## JBFairthorne

player99 said:


> I am an independent thinker. I make up my bs independent of any source.


it’s funny because it’s true.


----------



## Jim Wellington

Midnight Rider said:


> I visited the link you provided which was 'Vice News'. A fish wrap news organization co-founded by Canadian 'Con Man' Shane Smith with one stake holder being George Soros of 'Soros Fund Management' and other relationships with CNN.
> Shit, that's all I needed to learn about 'Vice News' to determine they are part of the extreme left mainstream news media that pretty much spews bullshit and false narratives every chance they get. VICE,... a one time punk-rock magazine trying to pose as a legitimate media company, lol.
> 
> Please tell me you are aware of who George Soros is. In case you don't hear's a hint,... he is known for funding and supporting radical leftist groups around the globe,... does ANTIFA and BLM ring a bell? But perhaps that's your thing,... I don't know for sure but some of your replies lean in that direction.
> 
> Your link is a case of,... 'Consider The Source' which wreaks of propaganda bullshit.
> 
> A little history lesson on VICE: Vice Media Was Built on a Bluff. What Happens When It Gets Called?
> 
> In April 2021, Vice Media was criticized by Cambodians for photoshopping images of the victims of the Khmer Rouge Genocide. Some victims had smilies photoshopped onto their faces. Vice later admitted to the images being photoshopped and said that "We regret the error and will investigate how this failure of the editorial process occurred."
> 
> On 3 May 2019, Vice Media announced that it raised $250 million in debt from George Soros and other investors. In October, Vice Media announced that it was acquiring Refinery29. The deal, worth a reported $400 million, valued the combined company at $4 billion. In May 2020, Vice media announced they were laying off more than 150 staff due to financial difficulties. In June 2020, Vice Media launched an investigation into allegations of subsidiary Refinery29's toxic work environment.
> 
> On 23 December 2017, The New York Times reported that there have been four settlements involving allegations of sexual harassment or defamation against Vice employees. In addition, over twenty other women stated that they had experienced or witnessed sexual misconduct, including unwanted kisses, groping, lewd remarks and propositions for sex, at the company. In a statement provided to The New York Times, Vice co-founders Shane Smith and Suroosh Alvi said, "from the top down, we have failed as a company to create a safe and inclusive workplace where everyone, especially women, can feel respected and thrive." In January 2018, it was announced that president Andrew Creighton and chief digital officer Mike Germano were suspended as the company investigated charges against them. Vice's COO/CFO Sarah Broderick sent a memo to staff on 2 January 2018 announcing the suspension of Creighton, who paid a $135,000 settlement in 2016 to a former employee who said she was fired after turning him down, and Mike Germano, who has served as chief digital officer. Germano founded Carrot Creative, which was acquired by Vice in 2013; he has been accused of pulling a former colleague onto his lap at a company party, as well as telling his former strategist Amanda Rue he originally didn't want to hire her "because he wanted to have sex with her." Vice has also been criticized by current and former employees for featuring work by Terry Richardson, a photographer facing accusations of sexual abuse by multiple models. In another documentary, a former female employee covering a story about sex workers in a developing country said Vice attempted to "sensationalize and exploit" the women depicted. In one occasion, producers requested her to go undercover as a prostitute, which she refused. She also remarks being oriented to swear more while on camera.
> 
> In January 2008, co-founder Gavin McInnes left Vice Media due to "creative differences" with the company, and founded the website streetcarnage.com. He later co-founded Rooster, an advertising agency and became a far-right activist, founding the Proud Boys.
> 
> According to Columbia Journalism Review, Vice has altered shots during the editing process in pursuit of more entertaining or impressive scenes. In a 2011 documentary on Libya, a voiceover from the reporter claim that he had gone to the frontlines amidst an offensive, while a source claims he did not make the trip, with only a cameraman going there.
> 
> VICE Media History Timeline: Vice Media History - Zippia
> This is in addition to the previous 4 paragraphs.
> 
> Yeah, they are an extremely reliable news source and they got you hook, line and sinker, lol.
> View attachment 380740


Oh yeah Vice...You forgot the cocaine scandal. Nothing says journalistic credibility like your editor smuggling cocaine internationally.

I looked at the numbers in this link yesterday. I found page 11 and 12 especially effective in combating media induced fear, and giving me an actual risk assement for my age group. Looks to me based on percentages that I`m at alot less risk than politicians and media sources would leave me to believe. 



https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-/media/documents/ncov/epi/covid-19-epi-confirmed-cases-post-vaccination.pdf?sc_lang=en


----------



## tonewoody

Covid Vaccines John Oliver


----------



## 2manyGuitars

For those that see the big, scary numbers on all the VAERS charts but don’t want to read the hundred paragraphs of replies, here’s why you should take that info with a grain of salt...

Yes, it’s the “Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System” and what that means is doctors report anything occurring in vaccinated patients *WHETHER IT’S RELATED TO THE VACCINE OR NOT*. I stub my toe a couple weeks after getting the vaccine and go to the clinic? Reported to VAERS. Dude gets vaccinated, walks out of the clinic and gets hit by a bus? Reported to VAERS. _Then_ they investigate each report to determine if it was related in any way to the vaccine.

Yes, in the period from roughly December 2020 to September 2021, out of 701,559 vaccinated people, roughly 15,000 died, 60,000 were hospitalized, etc., etc.
But if you take 701,559 *non-vaccinated* people in any given year, thousands died, tens of thousands are hospitalized or wind up in urgent care.

That 300 pound dude who died of a heart attack was a ticking time bomb with or without the vaccine. The 98 year-old nursing home resident that died of a stroke a week after getting vaccinated is no different than the 96 year-old non-vaccinated resident down the hall who died of a stroke a few weeks earlier.

If the report said “we took 700,000 non-vaccinated Americans, monitored them all from December to September and none died, none were hospitalized, none wound up at the doctors office, THEN those numbers would scare the shit outta me.


----------



## tonewoody

You go to a party.

You meet new people. Good people, some quite interesting.

Then you notice a guy pleasuring himself in the middle of the living room, making a big show of it. Harassing the guests, getting off on the attention. 



WTF, You ask?

The host says "oh, thats Pudly, he comes to every party and does that"...


Maybe it is just me. Creepy trolls spreading misinformation? IMO, not cool...


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Midnight Rider said:


> last week I'm having a beverage with my neighbour when he tells me the story of his 57 year old friend...


I usually don’t even read any “factual” statement that starts like this.

But I did anyway so I can’t be accused of “ignoring the evidence”. You know lots of health nuts die every day, right? In fact, if you google heart attacks in runners, there is an increased incidence of them depending on how much they run. Of course, I don’t have the relevant data because it’s a story about a friend of a friend told while drinking. I’ll take that info for what it’s worth.


----------



## SWLABR

2manyGuitars said:


> But I did anyway so I can’t be accused of “ignoring the evidence”. *You know lots of health nuts die every day, right? *In fact, if you google heart attacks in runners, there is an increased incidence of them depending on how much they run. Of course, I don’t have the relevant data because it’s a story about a friend of a friend told while drinking. I’ll take that info for what it’s worth.


----------



## allthumbs56

Well, seeing that this is a guitar site, if I want to gig then I need to be vaccinated. If you want to come to my gig then you need to be vaccinated.

I want to gig


----------



## SWLABR

allthumbs56 said:


> Well, seeing that this is a guitar site, if I want to gig then I need to be vaccinated. If you want to come to my gig then you need to be vaccinated.
> 
> I want to gig


All the unvaccinated music fans have to go see Clapton! 

A-ha!!! I just combined two threads!


----------



## zztomato

Midnight Rider said:


> My body,... my choice,... period!


I don't think anyone is taking that right away from you. You are able to get an exemption, correct? that exemption will still give you access anywhere a vaccine "passport" is required. 
Sadly, what you are posting from these sites requires a lot of disclaimers. You are naive to think what is on there is the truth. All that data needs to be purged of irrelevant info. A proper peer review would do that and has been done throughout the pandemic wrt these kinds of claims. This is nothing new of course. Claims that vaccines in general cause all kinds of syndromes have been going on for years- mostly perpetuated by whacko celebrities and people with books to sell. 

Of course, this all being very new, there is ongoing research that will unfold as things go on. You've made a choice for yourself and I will make my own choices. As you know from my previous post, I did not have a good experience with the vaccine. I also know of one other person who developed a blood clot after having the AZ vaccine. That person got treatment and did not die. And then there's the Covid mortality rate and all those with severe ongoing health problems that you never seem to accept in any of your posts. 
I'm right with you on the need to be skeptical but you are taking it to an irrational level of blind fear. You post info that has been specially curated for the conspiracy crowd. You are obviously scared, and probably have a right to be, but I just don't see how this is helping. 
Clearly almost everyone on here has had a vaccine and are doing fine. They've already made their choice and are at peace with it. So, what exactly are you trying to accomplish?


----------



## 2manyGuitars

allthumbs56 said:


> Well, seeing that this is a guitar site, if I want to gig then I need to be vaccinated. If you want to come to my gig then you need to be vaccinated.
> 
> I want to gig


Earlier in the summer, we were all ready to get back to rehearsing since we’d all been double-chipped.

..except for our singer.

Said he wasn’t vaccinated and wasn’t going to for “reasons”. This was before Delta was really a thing so me and the other guitarist were like, “hey, _we’re_ protected so that’s his choice”. Now with Delta, I’m not sure I want to stand in an enclosed space, 10 feet away from a guy belting out spittle for 3 hours.

Never mind the fact that it’s unlikely we’d be able to get a gig with an unvaccinated band member. His choice for sure, but choices come with consequences. You don’t get to stand in a room with dozens of people screaming at the top of your lungs for hours in the middle of a respiratory pandemic if you’re not vaccinated.


----------



## SWLABR

zztomato said:


> I don't think anyone is taking that right away from you. You are able to get an exemption, correct? that exemption will still give you access anywhere a vaccine "passport" is required.
> Sadly, what you are posting from these sites requires a lot of disclaimers. You are naive to think what is on there is the truth. All that data needs to be purged of irrelevant info. A proper peer review would do that and has been done throughout the pandemic wrt these kinds of claims. This is nothing new of course. Claims that vaccines in general cause all kinds of syndromes have been going on for years- mostly perpetuated by whacko celebrities and people with books to sell.
> 
> Of course, this all being very new, there is ongoing research that will unfold as things go on. You've made a choice for yourself and I will make my own choices. As you know from my previous post, I did not have a good experience with the vaccine. I also know of one other person who developed a blood clot after having the AZ vaccine. That person got treatment and did not die. And then there's the Covid mortality rate and all those with severe ongoing health problems that you never seem to accept in any of your posts.
> I'm right with you on the need to be skeptical but you are taking it to an irrational level of blind fear. You post info that has been specially curated for the conspiracy crowd. You are obviously scared, and probably have a right to be, but I just don't see how this is helping.
> Clearly almost everyone on here has had a vaccine and are doing fine. They've already made their choice and are at peace with it. So, what exactly are you trying to accomplish?


Well said sir.


----------



## sulphur

There are plenty of sources that refute those VAERS claims, I just happened to pull one of the first I came across.
I'm sure though, that you'll try and pick apart any source that I do provide. There are lots of them, just look for yourself.
But we all know, that you didn't and you won't.









Fact Check-VAERS data does not prove thousands died from receiving COVID-19 vaccines


Updated to correct repeated clause and quotation in paragraph 12.




www.reuters.com


----------



## allthumbs56

sulphur said:


> There are plenty of sources that refute those VAERS claims, I just happened to pull one of the first I came across.
> I'm sure though, that you'll try and pick apart any source that I do provide. There are lots of them, just look for yourself.
> But we all know, that you didn't and you won't.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Fact Check-VAERS data does not prove thousands died from receiving COVID-19 vaccines
> 
> 
> Updated to correct repeated clause and quotation in paragraph 12.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


_"Of the 145 million COVID-19 vaccine doses administered in the United States from Dec. 14, 2020 through March 29, 2021, “VAERS received 2,509 reports of death (0.0017%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine.” Having reviewed “available clinical information including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records,” *the CDC found “no evidence that vaccination contributed to patient deaths”* (here)."_


----------



## sulphur

It's a bit pathetic that a thread started with good intentions for updates turned into a debunking thread.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

sulphur said:


> It's a bit pathetic that a thread started with good intentions for updates turned into a debunking thread.


Well the good news is that the vaccine passport resulted in a large uptick in vaccination appointments.


----------



## sulphur

The US has just surpassed the death toll from the 1918 Spanish flu.
So this is now officially the deadliest disease outbreak in their recent history.

In 2020, Alabama recorded for the first time in recorded history more deaths than births, essentially shrinking the state.


----------



## SWLABR

sulphur said:


> In 2020, Alabama recorded for the first time in recorded history more deaths than births, essentially shrinking the state.


This goes way beyond just an astonishing statistic. These are real lives. Lives lost, that just a year prior, would have been unfathomable. 

And most are unnecessary brought on (at least in part) to... 

*Self edited pre-posting*: If I listed why I believe it's happened, I'd put the thread in jeopardy, and at minimum get my post removed.


----------



## JBFairthorne

????


----------



## 2manyGuitars

SWLABR said:


> *Self edited pre-posting*: If I listed why I believe it's happened, I'd put the thread in jeopardy, and at minimum get my post removed.


Yeah, I had a comment to make about that too but decided not to. You know, for the greater good.

Didn’t want the thread nuked.


----------



## allthumbs56

sulphur said:


> The US has just surpassed the death toll from the 1918 Spanish flu.
> So this is now officially the deadliest disease outbreak in their recent history.
> 
> In 2020, Alabama recorded for the first time in recorded history more deaths than births, essentially shrinking the state.


Compared to Florida, California, and Texas I would have called Alabama "unremarkable" - but with a population less than Toronto ........


----------



## Grainslayer

sulphur said:


> In 2020, Alabama recorded for the first time in recorded history more deaths than births, essentially shrinking the state.


Some would say that is the goal


----------



## Milkman

Well, I just downloaded the vaccination evidence required by the new regulations.

I doubt I'll need to use it unless they expand its application.

I just don't see me or my wife attending a crowded event any time soon.


----------



## Grainslayer

Milkman said:


> I just don't see me or my wife attending a crowded event any time soon.


Me neither..Im finding that I just do the basics now. Gas station,grocery store..Life is weird now but my guitar playing has never been better.


----------



## sulphur

Milkman said:


> Well, I just downloaded the vaccination evidence required by the new regulations.
> 
> I doubt I'll need to use it unless they expand its application.
> 
> I just don't see me or my wife attending a crowded event any time soon.


I don't have a cell phone, so no way to update anything if I had to.
I requested and recieved a paper copy verifying my two vaccines.

I rarely go out too, but a restaurant might be nice in a blue moon.


----------



## Milkman

sulphur said:


> I don't have a cell phone, so no way to update anything if I had to.
> I requested and recieved a paper copy verifying my two vaccines.
> 
> I rarely go out too, but a restaurant might be nice in a blue moon.



I printed them as well.


----------



## sulphur

Milkman said:


> I printed them as well.


I thought that I heard something about a scan code coming out, maybe a new app or something like that.
I assume to make it more difficult to replicate and scam as the paper would be.

That you leave those without a phone out in the lurch, it's assumed that everyone has one of those these days, I suppose.
I know that there's a thread specific to this topic in here, but was over four pages before I checked on it, maybe I'll have to read through it.


----------



## allthumbs56

sulphur said:


> I thought that I heard something about a scan code coming out, maybe a new app or something like that.
> I assume to make it more difficult to replicate and scam as the paper would be.
> 
> That you leave those without a phone out in the lurch, it's assumed that everyone has one of those these days, I suppose.
> I know that there's a thread specific to this topic in here, but was over four pages before I checked on it, maybe I'll have to read through it.


AFAIK you can print the scan code and carry a copy with you as well. I have a phone - it is not that smart and I have no data plan and I do not take it with me at all times. I hope a paper version in my wallet will prove sufficient.

BTW I just saw this elsewhere. Out of Edmonton. I thought it was an informative read and I don't think contentious.









Opinion: It's not a matter of if you'll get COVID, but when you'll get COVID


Asking patients if they have received the vaccine is standard practice in our physician offices. General health promotion is a key part of our jobs no matter…




edmontonjournal.com


----------



## 2manyGuitars

allthumbs56 said:


> BTW I just saw this elsewhere. Out of Edmonton. I thought it was an informative read and I don't think contentious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion: It's not a matter of if you'll get COVID, but when you'll get COVID
> 
> 
> Asking patients if they have received the vaccine is standard practice in our physician offices. General health promotion is a key part of our jobs no matter…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edmontonjournal.com


Nice short, concise article.


----------



## sulphur

allthumbs56 said:


> AFAIK you can print the scan code and carry a copy with you as well. I have a phone - it is not that smart and I have no data plan and I do not take it with me at all times. I hope a paper version in my wallet will prove sufficient.
> 
> BTW I just saw this elsewhere. Out of Edmonton. I thought it was an informative read and I don't think contentious.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Opinion: It's not a matter of if you'll get COVID, but when you'll get COVID
> 
> 
> Asking patients if they have received the vaccine is standard practice in our physician offices. General health promotion is a key part of our jobs no matter…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edmontonjournal.com


Ya, I can't print anything off, so all I have is the original piece of paper.
If that's now changed, it won't be any different for me than someone unvaxxed, afaik.


----------



## allthumbs56

sulphur said:


> Ya, I can't print anything off, so all I have is the original piece of paper.
> If that's now changed, it won't be any different for me than someone unvaxxed, afaik.


You need a friend with a printer


----------



## Guitar101

JBFairthorne said:


> ????


I liked your post but I would have used 5 question marks. 😷


----------



## Guitar101

sulphur said:


> I thought that I heard something about a scan code coming out, maybe a new app or something like that.
> I assume to make it more difficult to replicate and scam as the paper would be.
> 
> That you leave those without a phone out in the lurch, it's assumed that everyone has one of those these days, I suppose.
> I know that there's a thread specific to this topic in here, but was over four pages before I checked on it, maybe I'll have to read through it.


A caller on talk radio in TO this morning said "I printed out our 2 dose vaccine reports and used them. Not only did they accept them , they copied them so they wouldn't have to bring them again if they return.


----------



## RJP110

In my day to day I’d say that unvaccinated make up 2/3 of our cases. But this has also fluctuated in the other direction. More importantly, I can’t tell you how many people I’ve seen come to the ER with Covid and sent home with NO treatment to return 4 days later needing admission. The end to this pandemic isn’t solely from vaccination contrary to what “They” will have you believe. Vaccination is a part, but we are missing out on early treatment. Regardless of your opinion of ivermectin it IS being given as part of an early treatment regime with great success in the USA. Also monoclonal antibodies, ASA, antibiotics and prednisone. In those areas where early treatment is initiated their hospital admissions are significant lower. And, natural immunity is proven to be far more robust to delta than the immunity from the vaccines. For example, here is a post from a singer friend in Nashville who contracted CV19


----------



## BlueRocker

Well if a singer friend says it, it must be true.


----------



## JBFairthorne

…as long as we have a voucher.


----------



## SWLABR

JBFairthorne said:


> ????





Guitar101 said:


> I liked your post but I would have used 5 question marks. 😷


I would absolutely love to spout my thoughts, but as I said, and “2many” summed up… it would potentially nuke the thread.


----------



## mhammer

1) Went to a small-town Tim Horton's this morning, and the woman at the cash who took my order asked if it was for eating in or take-out. When I indicated I was going to be sitting down, she requested proof of vaccination and I whipped out the sheet. She further asked for ID and my phone number for contact tracing. Good on her, and good on her management.

2) RE: RJP110's post*: "The end to this pandemic isn’t solely from vaccination contrary to what “They” will have you believe. " * The blue part is QUITE correct. Just who the "They" specifically refers to, I don't know. Public health officials, as vociferously as they have been urging people to get vaccinated, have also been emphasizing that all the other public health measures, like masking and distancing, *still apply* and are still every bit as necessary. If people would like for this virus to go away and not bother them again, they have to do two things: be more immune, and stop spreading the frigging thing. All those medications and prophylactic substances are wonderful and helpful, but folks have got stop thinking they are somehow "pure", and keep their damn virus load to themselves..


----------



## RJP110

mhammer said:


> 1) Went to a small-town Tim Horton's this morning, and the woman at the cash who took my order asked if it was for eating in or take-out. When I indicated I was going to be sitting down, she requested proof of vaccination and I whipped out the sheet. She further asked for ID and my phone number for contact tracing. Good on her, and good on her management.
> 
> 2) RE: RJP110's post*: "The end to this pandemic isn’t solely from vaccination contrary to what “They” will have you believe. " * The blue part is QUITE correct. Just who the "They" specifically refers to, I don't know. Public health officials, as vociferously as they have been urging people to get vaccinated, have also been emphasizing that all the other public health measures, like masking and distancing, *still apply* and are still every bit as necessary. If people would like for this virus to go away and not bother them again, they have to do two things: be more immune, and stop spreading the frigging thing. All those medications and prophylactic substances are wonderful and helpful, but folks have got stop thinking they are somehow "pure", and keep their damn virus load to themselves..


“They” is the narrative from the media and public health officials. There is an abundance of science out there that is largely being ignored as it doesn’t fit the narrative. I’m not sure it’s nefarious in nature but it’s still happening. You can recommend vaccination and still advocate for these early treatment options.

Agreed. But how do you suppose we do that? Vaccinated can still acquire it, still spread it. Previously infected seem to have a more robust immunity but for how long? The current MRNA vaccines are already behind the 8 ball when it comes to the delta variant as there are roughly 8 changes to the delta spike protein and the vaccine is based off of the original alpha strain. Unless the boosters are changing the mRNA produced to match the Delta variant it won’t be super helpful. And even then, they will be less effective for the next variant.
Also, upwards of 80% of the population will have it with zero symptoms. It’s easy to stay home when you have symptoms, but in this case? 
CV is now morphed from pandemic to endemic. And it will follow the same curve as all other ILI’s. It will drop in summer and peak fall/winter. Are we now masking and social distancing every winter for the rest of our lives? Because there’s already the “MU” and “Lamda”variant making its way here. It’s not a matter of if you get exposed, more like when. CV is here to stay.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

mhammer said:


> 1) Went to a small-town Tim Horton's this morning, and the woman at the cash who took my order asked if it was for eating in or take-out. When I indicated I was going to be sitting down, she requested proof of vaccination and I whipped out the sheet. She further asked for ID and my phone number for contact tracing. Good on her, and good on her management.
> 
> 2) RE: RJP110's post*: "The end to this pandemic isn’t solely from vaccination contrary to what “They” will have you believe. " * The blue part is QUITE correct. Just who the "They" specifically refers to, I don't know. Public health officials, as vociferously as they have been urging people to get vaccinated, have also been emphasizing that all the other public health measures, like masking and distancing, *still apply* and are still every bit as necessary. If people would like for this virus to go away and not bother them again, they have to do two things: be more immune, and stop spreading the frigging thing. All those medications and prophylactic substances are wonderful and helpful, but folks have got stop thinking they are somehow "pure", and keep their damn virus load to themselves..


And not saying anyone here has even remotely approached this level, but I marvel at the stupidity of some of the hardcore COVIDiots.

“You said that if we wore masks, practiced social distancing, and got vaccinated, we could get this under control. Well, why isn’t COVID gone?!?”

Have you done any of those things?

“Fuck no!! I’m not letting Big Pharma or the government tell me what to do. And it obviously doesn’t work anyway.”


----------



## RJP110

BlueRocker said:


> Well if a singer friend says it, it must be true.


Or you could just look up treatment protocols being implemented in the USA. Its pretty easily verified. And why lie? It’s not like early treatment is part of some malicious agenda….to message 9 people lol


----------



## Midnight Rider

Well, keep lining up boys and sticking your arm out for the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc., etc., jab if it helps you get through the next day. You can split my doses up amongst yourselves if it helps to keep you from hiding under your bed with a flashlight.

Definitely exiting this perpetual Covid-19 circle jerk,... be responsible,... us a prophylactic.


----------



## mhammer

RJP110 said:


> “They” is the narrative and public health officials. There is an abundance of science out there that is largely being ignored as it doesn’t fit the narrative. I’m not sure it’s nefarious in nature but it’s still happening. You can recommend vaccination and still advocate for these early treatment options.
> 
> Agreed. But how do you suppose we do that? Vaccinated can still acquire it, still spread it. Previously infected seem to have a more robust immunity but for how long? The current MRNA vaccines are already behind the 8 ball when it comes to the delta variant as there are roughly 8 changes to the delta spike protein and the vaccine is based off of the original alpha strain. Unless the boosters are changing the mRNA produced to match the Delta variant it won’t be super helpful. And even then, they will be less effective for the next variant.
> Upwards of 80% of the population will have it with zero symptoms. CV is now morphed from pandemic to endemic. And it will follow the same curve as all other ILI’s. It will drop in summer and peak fall/winter. Are we now masking every winter for the rest of our lives? Because there’s already the “MU” and “Lamda”variant making its way here. It’s not a matter of if you get exposed, more like when. CV is here to stay.


Lots of things are "here to stay", insomuch as the pathogen hasn't been completely eradicated. The question is ultimately "Is there anyone I might catch it from, and conditions that make it more likely?". Polio was not wiped out and the various diseases we vaccinate our kids for still exist. But there is hardly anyone to catch it from BECAUSE of effective immunization programs. So we get to carry on our lives as if the disease isn't there. Influenza still exists and isn't going anywhere, BUT not nearly as many people contracted it last winter. Why? Folks were encouraged to get flu shots to avoid hospitals getting swamped by flu AND Covid, but I don't know what kind of uptake there was. However, all that sanitizer, and all those people staying away from each other, meant it was much harder to catch the flu from anyone. I know that ever since I stopped riding the crowded commuter bus to work, I've been healthy as a horse; better than I've been in years. When our kids were in daycare, three was an inflection point in how often they got sick (and passed it on to us), because three and four year-olds had learned to keep their snot to themselves.

Similarly, whether it mutates further or not, I doubt Covid is going anywhere. But the cases that warrant *more* than a sick call into work and a promise to be in on Monday, have been on the decline, particularly in those regions where vaccine uptake has been good, and public adherence (both customers and businesses) to public health measures has been decent.

Officials have often been a little too singularly focussed as this thing went on, emphasizing and overemphasizing one thing at a time, or at least underemphasizing the interrelation between the multiple strategies required to beat this thing back. Vaccines are great. Please get one if you haven't already. But DO THE OTHER THINGS TOO, and encourage others to do them too. All the other things that people try or recommend are but one element of an overall strategy to prevent transmission. You want to load yourself up with Vitamin D because you hear it boosts immune function? Great, BUT IT'S NOT A BRICK WALL. Neither is vaccination. You don't plunk one brick down and call it a wall.


----------



## RJP110

mhammer said:


> Lots of things are "here to stay", insomuch as the pathogen hasn't been completely eradicated. The question is ultimately "Is there anyone I might catch it from, and conditions that make it more likely?". Polio was not wiped out and the various diseases we vaccinate our kids for still exist. But there is hardly anyone to catch it from BECAUSE of effective immunization programs. So we get to carry on our lives as if the disease isn't there. Influenza still exists and isn't going anywhere, BUT not nearly as many people contracted it last winter. Why? Folks were encouraged to get flu shots to avoid hospitals getting swamped by flu AND Covid, but I don't know what kind of uptake there was. However, all that sanitizer, and all those people staying away from each other, meant it was much harder to catch the flu from anyone. I know that ever since I stopped riding the crowded commuter bus to work, I've been healthy as a horse; better than I've been in years. When our kids were in daycare, three was an inflection point in how often they got sick (and passed it on to us), because three and four year-olds had learned to keep their snot to themselves.
> 
> Similarly, whether it mutates further or not, I doubt Covid is going anywhere. But the cases that warrant *more* than a sick call into work and a promise to be in on Monday, have been on the decline, particularly in those regions where vaccine uptake has been good, and public adherence (both customers and businesses) to public health measures has been decent.
> 
> Officials have often been a little too singularly focussed as this thing went on, emphasizing and overemphasizing one thing at a time, or at least underemphasizing the interrelation between the multiple strategies required to beat this thing back. Vaccines are great. Please get one if you haven't already. But DO THE OTHER THINGS TOO, and encourage others to do them too. All the other things that people try or recommend are but one element of an overall strategy to prevent transmission. You want to load yourself up with Vitamin D because you hear it boosts immune function? Great, BUT IT'S NOT A BRICK WALL. Neither is vaccination. You don't plunk one brick down and call it a wall.


"BUT IT'S NOT A BRICK WALL. Neither is vaccination. You don't plunk one brick down and call it a wall."

That's exactly my point. From what I've seen, I do think the vaccinations are effective. But neglecting all the other science regarding early treatment measures in the fear it will cause vaccination hesitancy (Just an assumption on motive on my part) is a mistake. To truly make a dent in this virus we need to start doing things differently (or the same, as in pre pandemic).


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Mutation and evolution;

It's been several weeks since I heard the report, and I don't know which virologist mentioned it but to put the gist in my own words...It is much more likely that Covid 19 will mutate into something less harmful than more. Of all the ways a virus can mutate, to hit on a deadly formula is quite a small target. The greatest likelyhood of mutation is that is develops into something that is a minor annoyance, or not a cause for much concern. Odds are on our side in this regard. It may, in fact, mutate itself out of existence in time, the same way over 90% of species that have ever lived on this planet did.


----------



## RJP110

Jim DaddyO said:


> Mutation and evolution;
> 
> It's been several weeks since I heard the report, and I don't know which virologist mentioned it but to put the gist in my own words...It is much more likely that Covid 19 will mutate into something less harmful than more. Of all the ways a virus can mutate, to hit on a deadly formula is quite a small target. The greatest likelyhood of mutation is that is develops into something that is a minor annoyance, or not a cause for much concern. Odds are on our side in this regard. It may, in fact, mutate itself out of existence in time, the same way over 90% of species that have ever lived on this planet did.


Yes, this principle is called Muller's Ratchet. Organisms with high mutation rates (such as mRNA viruses) Often (not always) mutate to generally be more transmissible and less severe. The general consensus is that delta is 40 times more transmissible and less deadly (although this is difficult to really measure because if it’s more transmissible you are starting with more virus at inoculation that replicate and have a higher viral load and therefore may be more symptomatic)


----------



## mhammer

RJP110 said:


> "BUT IT'S NOT A BRICK WALL. Neither is vaccination. You don't plunk one brick down and call it a wall."
> 
> That's exactly my point. From what I've seen, I do think the vaccinations are effective. But neglecting all the other science regarding early treatment measures in the fear it will cause vaccination hesitancy (Just an assumption on motive on my part) is a mistake. To truly make a dent in this virus we need to start doing things differently (or the same, as in pre pandemic).


I agree. The problem has been that there is a concurrent epidemic of adolescent contrarianism, such that anything which gives some folks the slightest rationale to reject anything perceived as mainstream is seized upon. Does having recovered from a mild case result in some measurable immune response? Yes. But some will now declare "I don't have to succumb to your stupid vaccine because I have natural immunity!". Ivermectin shows some limited effectiveness, and people use that as a rationale to reject vaccines and other public health measures. You have to take ALL the measures, not pick through the Smarties for the red ones and leave the others. Public officials have been sucked into deliberately avoiding mention of, or downplaying, all alternatives because they know damn well that any positive mention of an alternative to the things they NEED people to do will result in an avoidance of the things they need people to do, just to be contrary.


----------



## mhammer

Mutations: Things that proliferate and replicate will not always replicate with high fidelity. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't and the resulting mutation is a biological failure. Sometimes they don't and the result is a "successful" mutation. Cancer cells are our own tissue that didn't quite divide and multiply the same way they did so nicely when they started out. We're mutating all the time. There are wonderful cellular repair mechanisms that attempt to insure consistency in replication but we all have weird little growths and marks because replication is imperfect. In general, the simpler the life-form, the quicker it replicates, and the more replications per unit of time, the greater the likelihood of successful mutations. The likelihood of unsuccessful mutations is also higher, but they're not the ones that concern us. But mutations in simple life forms is how we can study evolved changes in fruit flies and such so easily, and see a change not only within our own lifetime, but from one week to the next. Gotta wait a LOT longer to see mutations and evolution in bears, monkeys, humans. And, as simple life forms go, it's hard to get simpler than a virus.


----------



## HighNoon

RJP110 said:


> Yes, this principle is called Muller's Ratchet. Organisms with high mutation rates (such as mRNA viruses) Often (not always) mutate to generally be more transmissible and less severe. The general consensus is that delta is 40 times more transmissible and less deadly (although this is difficult to really measure because if it’s more transmissible you are starting with more virus at inoculation that replicate and have a higher viral load and therefore may be more symptomatic)


Welcome back. Any time you're in the neighborhood, you're welcome to come by the house and beat your head against my anvil. As a prophylactic it does wonders.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> Yes. But some will now declare "I don't have to succumb to your stupid vaccine because I have natural immunity!".


So far, in the States, 13% of the population has gotten Covid and would therefore have some degree of "natural immunity". In Canada it's 4%. This has happened over about an 18 month span. 54% of the population, thus far has opted for the jab - 70% in Canada. 

So, for fun, and using a combination of published numbers and calcs from my own data, I arrived at this: At the current rate of infection (ie. "natural immunity") and vaccination ("artificial immunity") it will take the States 250 more days to reach 100% immunity. For us Canadians it will take 185 days.

That's just for fun - trying to gauge where covid is going to go and future rates of vaccination and effectiveness of "immunity" and deaths vs. recoveries makes it kinda hard to predict - but there ya' go.


----------



## HighNoon

allthumbs56 said:


> So far, in the States, 13% of the population has gotten Covid and would therefore have some degree of "natural immunity". In Canada it's 4%. This has happened over about an 18 month span. 54% of the population, thus far has opted for the jab - 70% in Canada.
> 
> So, for fun, and using a combination of published numbers and calcs from my own data, I arrived at this: At the current rate of infection (ie. "natural immunity") and vaccination ("artificial immunity") it will take the States 250 more days to reach 100% immunity. For us Canadians it will take 185 days.
> 
> That's just for fun - trying to gauge where covid is going to go and future rates of vaccination and effectiveness of "immunity" and deaths vs. recoveries makes it kinda hard to predict - but there ya' go.


Given that pandemics will generally run their course in 2-3 years those numbers fit quite well.


----------



## allthumbs56

HighNoon said:


> Given that pandemics will generally run their course in 2-3 years those numbers fit quite well.


There's a lot of "ifs" and "buts' in those numbers. Lord knows where this will eventually lead us and I don't think we've endured enough pandemics in our past to be assured of any safe prediction. Covid has behaved like no other virus - almost like it was "designed".


----------



## mhammer

The duration of an epidemic or pandemic will depend on the stability of the pathogen in question. If it stays the same, then appropriate and dependable steps can be taken to eradicate it, and anyone who managed to contract it will remain fairly immune to the pathogen, since it is no different than when they first caught it. Part of what is making this pandemic drag on and on is that it has mutated. And the principle reason it has done so is because of the lousy efforts at preventing contagion early on, and still going on.

It's like people complaining that they hate high school, but they keep failing subjects and never graduating because they won't study for exams or show up to class.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

mhammer said:


> It's like people complaining that they hate high school, but they keep failing subjects and never graduating because they won't study for exams or show up to class.


To add to your analogy, sometimes those same students think they know more about the subjects they are being taught than the teachers themselves. If only they'd take the opportunity to listen and learn . . . and graduate and get out of high school.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

allthumbs56 said:


> Covid has behaved like no other virus - almost like it was "designed".


I think it’s more a case of people behaving “like no other” group in history. Even in the simpler times of the influenza pandemic 100 years ago, at least people gave enough of a sh!t about each other to take the necessary precautions.

Then there’s also the fact that this is the first pandemic in an age where we can put over 500 people into one 747 in New York and 7 hours later, they’re disembarking at Heathrow and heading out to every corner of the globe (or magical floating disk, if that’s how you roll).


----------



## RJP110

HighNoon said:


> Welcome back. Any time you're in the neighborhood, you're welcome to come by the house and beat your head against my anvil. As a prophylactic it does wonders.


Hahahahaha. Thanks. With the current state of affairs it may come to that.


----------



## allthumbs56

isoneedacoffee said:


> To add to your analogy, sometimes those same students think they know more about the subjects they are being taught than the teachers themselves. If only they'd take the opportunity to listen and learn . . . and graduate and get out of high school.


Yup. Like I said in my last post, 185 days from now you will have immunity - one way or another.


----------



## RJP110

mhammer said:


> I agree. The problem has been that there is a concurrent epidemic of adolescent contrarianism, such that anything which gives some folks the slightest rationale to reject anything perceived as mainstream is seized upon. Does having recovered from a mild case result in some measurable immune response? Yes. But some will now declare "I don't have to succumb to your stupid vaccine because I have natural immunity!". Ivermectin shows some limited effectiveness, and people use that as a rationale to reject vaccines and other public health measures. You have to take ALL the measures, not pick through the Smarties for the red ones and leave the others. Public officials have been sucked into deliberately avoiding mention of, or downplaying, all alternatives because they know damn well that any positive mention of an alternative to the things they NEED people to do will result in an avoidance of the things they need people to do, just to be contrary.


“The problem has been that there is a concurrent epidemic of adolescent contrarianism”. Totally. But this isn’t new. I’d argue this is human nature. The way to combat this has always been through honesty and consistent messaging. Not censorship and misinformation. If this had been the case from the get go this may not have been as much of an issue. For example, it was imperative that you get your 2nd dose in the 28 days (or whatever it was initially). Then there’s a supply chain issue….oh, new research shows you now have 3 months to get your 2nd dose (despite what the literature right from Pfizer states). You must not mix doses…..supply chain issue and yet again…new research shows you can mix and it actually increases efficacy (even though a day later the WHO stated to NOT mix). It’s about the vaccine, not the brand. Then this has lead a whole group of individuals to require a 3rd or 4th dose due to mixing and the AZ not being recognized abroad. You’re really surprised that people have questions and hesitancy? And if you have had Covid, why should you need to get vaccinated? Makes zero sense. With all the supply issues those doses could go to someone who needs the vaccine.

“You have to take ALL the measures, not pick through the Smarties for the red ones and leave the others.” Agreed. But this is exactly what the public health officials are doing in Canada. It’s ONLY red smarties here (those red smarties being the vaccine).


----------



## HighNoon

allthumbs56 said:


> There's a lot of "ifs" and "buts' in those numbers. Lord knows where this will eventually lead us and I don't think we've endured enough pandemics in our past to be assured of any safe prediction. Covid has behaved like no other virus - almost like it was "designed".


Therefore, to examine emergence potential of circulating CoVs, we built a chimeric virus that encodes a novel, zoonotic spike protein in the context of a viable CoV backbone. This approach characterized the threat posed by SHC014-CoV spike in primary human airway cells, in vivo, as well as the efficacy of available immune therapeutics.

To test the ability of SHC014 spike to mediate infection of the human airway, we examined 2B4 Calu-3 cells, a human epithelial airway cell line8 , and found robust SHC014-MA15 replication comparable to SARS-CoV Urbani (Fig. 1c). To extend these findings, primary human airway epithelial cultures (HAEs) were infected and indicated robust replication of both viruses.

Yes the designers have been busy.....very busy and productive.


----------



## mhammer

RJP110 said:


> I think if that’s the case it’s a very poor excuse on their part. Possibly if they would have had honest and consistent messaging from the get go this may not have been as much of an issue. For example, it was imperative that you get your 2nd dose in the 28 days (or whatever it was initially). Then there’s a supply chain issue….oh, new research shows you now have 3 months to get your 2nd dose (despite what the literature right from Pfizer states). You must not mix doses…..supply chain issue and yet again…new research shows you can mix and it actually increases efficacy (even though a day later the WHO stated to NOT mix). It’s about the vaccine, not the brand. Then this has lead a whole group of individuals to require a 3rd or 4th dose due to mixing and the AZ not being recognized abroad. You’re really surprised that people have questions and hesitancy? And if you have had Covid, why should you need to get vaccinated? Makes zero sense. With all the supply issues those doses could go to someone who needs the vaccine.
> 
> “You have to take ALL the measures, not pick through the Smarties for the red ones and leave the others.” Agreed. But this is exactly what the public health officials are doing in Canada. It’s ONLY red smarties here (those red smarties being the vaccine).


Can one always rely on disinterested or distractible people to listen to and comprehend the WHOLE message? Nope. I just posted something in the Effects subforum about power supplies. Do people REALLY need to use a Boss or EHX power supply that either came with the pedal or that they had to buy separately? Nah, not at all. But because the companies couldn't risk that consumers would misunderstand what they _needed_ to use, and didn't want to either field all the repairs resulting from people using the wrong supply, or reputation damage from people damaging the pedal and declaring on-line that "pedal X and company Y is a piece of crap", they simply declared "You MUST use our power supply", without any further explanation or options. 

It has been absolutely NO different with respect to public health measures. If one relies on fullsome explanations that allows for people to make informed and independent-but-wise-and-effective choices, you're taking a gamble with many of them. I'm not trying to be snooty and elitist. But if Roland can't even find it in them to trust customers to use the optimum wallwart for a f**king $90 pedal, how much do you think public health officials want to provide the public with the sort of thing that evokes a TLDR response when it comes to preventing a potentially lethal disease? 

Yes, there ARE unintended consequences of adopting that strategy. I have a lot of faith in people, and assume you do too. I like to offer them good info and choices, and facilitate their independence whenever and in whatever way I can. But you see what rolls into the ER, and how it can defy logic and common sense. How much faith are you willing to have, before one starts dumbing down the message and saying "Look, just DO this and don't ask why. Trust me, you'll be alright."? It's unpleasant to think of that as the _proper_ choice. Just as it is unpleasant to think of hurling someone out of a 5th floor window to hopefully land on an inflated mat on the ground in order to escape a burning building.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

HighNoon said:


> Therefore, to examine emergence potential of circulating CoVs, we built a chimeric virus that encodes a novel, zoonotic spike protein in the context of a viable CoV backbone. This approach characterized the threat posed by SHC014-CoV spike in primary human airway cells, in vivo, as well as the efficacy of available immune therapeutics.
> 
> To test the ability of SHC014 spike to mediate infection of the human airway, we examined 2B4 Calu-3 cells, a human epithelial airway cell line8 , and found robust SHC014-MA15 replication comparable to SARS-CoV Urbani (Fig. 1c). To extend these findings, primary human airway epithelial cultures (HAEs) were infected and indicated robust replication of both viruses.


Out of curiosity, where did you get your PhD?


----------



## HighNoon

isoneedacoffee said:


> Out of curiosity, where did you get your PhD?


The question should be, could you provide a link for your information.


----------



## mhammer

2manyGuitars said:


> I think it’s more a case of people behaving “like no other” group in history. Even in the simpler times of the influenza pandemic 100 years ago, at least people gave enough of a sh!t about each other to take the necessary precautions.
> 
> Then there’s also the fact that this is the first pandemic in an age where we can put over 500 people into one 747 in New York and 7 hours later, they’re disembarking at Heathrow and heading out to every corner of the globe (or magical floating disk, if that’s how you roll).


Good point about human mobility. That's why thoughtful observers have urged us to ready ourselves for more such disease events. Remember "leper colonies"? They existed because even long ago, people understood that the more we mingled, the more a disease could spread.

It's also the first pandemic in any age where there was hundreds of millions walking around thinking that what came from their Twitter or Facebook feed on their phones gave them the instant competence and understanding of someone who has studied public health and epidemiology for decades. Phones ain't books, and rumours ain't research.


----------



## RJP110

mhammer said:


> Can one always rely on disinterested or distractible people to listen to and comprehend the WHOLE message? Nope. I just posted something in the Effects subforum about power supplies. Do people REALLY need to use a Boss or EHX power supply that either came with the pedal or that they had to buy separately? Nah, not at all. But because the companies couldn't risk that consumers would misunderstand what they _needed_ to use, and didn't want to either field all the repairs resulting from people using the wrong supply, or reputation damage from people damaging the pedal and declaring on-line that "pedal X and company Y is a piece of crap", they simply declared "You MUST use our power supply", without any further explanation or options.
> 
> It has been absolutely NO different with respect to public health measures. If one relies on fullsome explanations that allows for people to make informed and independent-but-wise-and-effective choices, you're taking a gamble with many of them. I'm not trying to be snooty and elitist. But if Roland can't even find it in them to trust customers to use the optimum wallwart for a f**king $90 pedal, how much do you think public health officials want to provide the public with the sort of thing that evokes a TLDR response when it comes to preventing a potentially lethal disease?
> 
> Yes, there ARE unintended consequences of adopting that strategy. I have a lot of faith in people, and assume you do too. I like to offer them good info and choices, and facilitate their independence whenever and in whatever way I can. But you see what rolls into the ER, and how it can defy logic and common sense. How much faith are you willing to have, before one starts dumbing down the message and saying "Look, just DO this and don't ask why. Trust me, you'll be alright."? It's unpleasant to think of that as the _proper_ choice. Just as it is unpleasant to think of hurling someone out of a 5th floor window to hopefully land on an inflated mat on the ground in order to escape a burning building.


I think it’s a balance. But is


mhammer said:


> Can one always rely on disinterested or distractible people to listen to and comprehend the WHOLE message? Nope. I just posted something in the Effects subforum about power supplies. Do people REALLY need to use a Boss or EHX power supply that either came with the pedal or that they had to buy separately? Nah, not at all. But because the companies couldn't risk that consumers would misunderstand what they _needed_ to use, and didn't want to either field all the repairs resulting from people using the wrong supply, or reputation damage from people damaging the pedal and declaring on-line that "pedal X and company Y is a piece of crap", they simply declared "You MUST use our power supply", without any further explanation or options.
> 
> It has been absolutely NO different with respect to public health measures. If one relies on fullsome explanations that allows for people to make informed and independent-but-wise-and-effective choices, you're taking a gamble with many of them. I'm not trying to be snooty and elitist. But if Roland can't even find it in them to trust customers to use the optimum wallwart for a f**king $90 pedal, how much do you think public health officials want to provide the public with the sort of thing that evokes a TLDR response when it comes to preventing a potentially lethal disease?
> 
> Yes, there ARE unintended consequences of adopting that strategy. I have a lot of faith in people, and assume you do too. I like to offer them good info and choices, and facilitate their independence whenever and in whatever way I can. But you see what rolls into the ER, and how it can defy logic and common sense. How much faith are you willing to have, before one starts dumbing down the message and saying "Look, just DO this and don't ask why. Trust me, you'll be alright."? It's unpleasant to think of that as the _proper_ choice. Just as it is unpleasant to think of hurling someone out of a 5th floor window to hopefully land on an inflated mat on the ground in order to escape a burning building.


“I like to offer them good info and choices, and facilitate their independence whenever and in whatever way I can. But you see what rolls into the ER, and how it can defy logic and common sense.”

I won’t get into the amount of rectal foreign bodies that fall into this category 😝.

There will always be outliers but generally I have faith that the majority of people will make the best decision if the information is consistent and honest. It’s change management 101 really. I’m seeing an abundance of people presenting to the ER with CV symptoms and being sent home with nothing. Then a significant portion return needing to be admitted and or intubated. So the one sided messaging is getting a bit tiresome when there are available options that have been shown to help. If this is truly about saving lives and ending this pandemic then we need to be focusing on all the smarties!


----------



## 2manyGuitars

mhammer said:


> Phones ain't books, and rumours ain't research.


Sounds like a line from a modern day Bob Dylan song.

Of course, you wouldn’t be able to make out a damn word of it…


----------



## jb welder

2manyGuitars said:


> people gave enough of a sh!t about each other to take the necessary precautions.


You some kind of commie or sumthin?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> If one relies on fullsome explanations that allows for people to make informed and independent-but-wise-and-effective choices, you're taking a gamble with many of them. I'm not trying to be snooty and elitist. But if Roland can't even find it in them to trust customers to use the optimum wallwart for a f**king $90 pedal, how much do you think public health officials want to provide the public with the sort of thing that evokes a TLDR response when it comes to preventing a potentially lethal disease?




When I worked in health and safety we used to always say that we would like to make things idiot proof, but they keep coming up with better classes of idiots.


----------



## Paul Running

Maybe we should all live in plastic bubbles.


----------



## keto




----------



## mhammer

RJP110 said:


> There will always be outliers but generally I have faith that the majority of people will make the best decision if the information is consistent and honest. It’s change management 101 really. I’m seeing an abundance of people presenting to the ER with CV symptoms and being sent home with nothing. Then a significant portion return needing to be admitted and or intubated. So the one sided messaging is getting a bit tiresome when there are available options that have been shown to help. If this is truly about saving lives and ending this pandemic then we need to be focusing on all the smarties!


In my I/O psychology days, the question would come up "What are the competencies needed for the jobs of the future?". Without missing a beat, I would reply "Explanatory skill". As your own experience aptly illustrates, the ability to efficiently and clearly make something *understood* by someone else can be paramount to not only health care, but a surfeit of jobs and roles. Sadly, few people ever receive any deliberate and explicit instruction in this skill. We rely on people's ability to improvise a satisfactory, persuasive, accurate, and nonconfrontational explanation. It becomes a bit like saying "Hmm, the guy's choking on something. Do you have any ideas about what to do?".

Giving people "scripts" or "media lines" to use is good, but not everyone responds well to the same script, and media lines can often be vapid. Just how to elaborate on the script in a clear manner is never made evident. Better is to teach people how to assess a situation, construct a clear explanation that addresses what the information-seeker needs, and be able to adapt it on the fly to the recipient. This is especially important in emergency situations, where instant clarity becomes critical to avoid the situation quickly turning tragic.

Just why we're not teaching this skill to people who absolutely need it to do their jobs well is perplexing to me.


----------



## gtrguy

I gotta admit, I had a morbid chuckle when I saw this-









It’s not for real btw- just an idea dreamt up by an ad agency.


----------



## Diablo

MRNA 454.60 13.88 3.15% : Moderna, Inc. - Yahoo Finance 
weird link title....here's the actual headline.
*REFILE-Moderna chief executive sees pandemic over in a year - newspaper*


----------



## RJP110

I found this video quite informative on the importance of early treatment for CV19. This is purely anecdotal but the success is dramatic. And for $2.65 a person it's a remarkably cheap and safe treatment. As we all know, India was blasted with delta. Now their deaths are roughly 300 per day (for reference, the USA is over 2000) and they have 1.3 billion people vs 328 million in the Usa. Also, their vaccination rate is around 40% which is considerably lower than most other countries. What did they do different from USA/Canada? They initiated a coordinated effort to get all new CV19 cases an early treatment kit. This included SP02 monitor, thermometer, Ivermectin, doxycycline and a few other meds. This also allowed 90% of positive cases to be treated at home and NOT require hospitalization. Again, not taking away from vaccination but as Sars-COV2 mutates, we will need to adopt a multi faceted approach if we ever truly want to end this madness.


----------



## tonewoody

When it comes to India and Africa, I suspect the Covid stats are based on "official" data collected.

I would be not be surprised if there are significant "unofficial" numbers flying under the radar. These countries do not have the resources to account daily for every member of their population.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

For those of you pushing for alternative forms of early treatment, what exactly is wrong with the treatment currently being offered in Canada? And if there is something wrong, why do you think you have the answer but our specialists don’t?


----------



## starjag

Is there early treatment in Canada as soon as you test positive? Or the ”early“ treatment starts once you get to the hospital becasue you cannot breath on your own?



isoneedacoffee said:


> For those of you pushing for alternative forms of early treatment, what exactly is wrong with the treatment currently being offered in Canada? And if there is something wrong, why do you think you have the answer but our specialists don’t?


----------



## isoneedacoffee

starjag said:


> Is there early treatment in Canada as soon as you test positive? Or the ”early“ treatment starts once you get to the hospital becasue you cannot breath on your own?


I'm not sure I understand the question, but treatment can only begin once there is something to actually treat (an infection). Anything beforehand is called prevention. And that's where the vaccine comes in. Maybe you were saying the same thing?

EDIT: I just read your post again. I think Canadian doctors can only treat what they can see. And that treatment is likely never black or white (early vs late), nor is it one size fits all. I imagine depending on your age, your underlying conditions, your symptoms, etc., a treatment plan will be prescribed by a doctor that is tailored for you. But yes, if by your own accord you only to choose to visit the hospital once you can't breath, then yes the first treatment you get will be the one you get as you walk through that door. How could it come any earlier?


----------



## HighNoon

starjag said:


> Is there early treatment in Canada as soon as you test positive? Or the ”early“ treatment starts once you get to the hospital becasue you cannot breath on your own?


There is no early treatment as pointed out by RJP110 before. You are sent home....drink fluids, maybe take an aspirin. I checked myself at the hospital last week with a nurse about what happens and it aligns with what RJP says. And those 4-6 days are very important to react quickly.


----------



## Mikev7305

Early treatment recommended in Canada is go home and don't do a thing until the virus completely takes over your body. Go to the hospital when you can barely breathe. How did everyone get rid of their colds and flus before the pandemic? I've always taken basic immune boosting supplements like vitamin d, zinc, vitamin c, and then go for a run and sweat it out. Rarely do I ever get sick for more than a day or two. There's tons of home remedies I'm sure, but never has public health said anything about that kind of stuff. It boggles my mind how often I hear that people think there's NO WAY to help your immune system fight a virus. 

A good buddy's family went through a bought of covid last week, so I asked what they were doing to help themselves through it. They said nothing at all and 1 out of the 5 of them ended up in the hospital. 

Another buddy's mother in law got covid, and she has lupus and cystic fibrosis. Some pretty scary co morbidities if one were to get covid as well. Basically when she gets ANY sickness, she ends up in the hospital. She got on a every supplement she could scrounge up, vit d, vit b, vit c, elderberry tea, echinacea, zinc, etc. She got over it in 2 days. No hospital. She hasn't gotten sick without a hospital visit in 15 years. Supplements are a new thing to her since covid. Funny how none of this was ever recommended to her by a doctor


----------



## HighNoon

Mikev7305 said:


> Early treatment recommended in Canada is go home and don't do a thing until the virus completely takes over your body. Go to the hospital when you can barely breathe. How did everyone get rid of their colds and flus before the pandemic? I've always taken basic immune boosting supplements like vitamin d, zinc, vitamin c, and then go for a run and sweat it out. Rarely do I ever get sick for more than a day or two. There's tons of home remedies I'm sure, but never has public health said anything about that kind of stuff. It boggles my mind how often I hear that people think there's NO WAY to help your immune system fight a virus.
> 
> A good buddy's family went through a bought of covid last week, so I asked what they were doing to help themselves through it. They said nothing at all and 1 out of the 5 of them ended up in the hospital.
> 
> Another buddy's mother in law got covid, and she has lupus and cystic fibrosis. Some pretty scary co morbidities if one were to get covid as well. Basically when she gets ANY sickness, she ends up in the hospital. She got on a every supplement she could scrounge up, vit d, vit b, vit c, elderberry tea, echinacea, zinc, etc. She got over it in 2 days. No hospital. She hasn't gotten sick without a hospital visit in 15 years. Supplements are a new thing to her since covid. Funny how none of this was ever recommended to her by a doctor


What was it our Minister of Health in charge said about Vitamin D as a useful preventive or prophylactic treatment.....It's Fake News. Fake News from a Fake Minister of Health.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Mikev7305 said:


> A good buddy's family went through a bought of covid last week, so I asked what they were doing to help themselves through it. They said nothing at all and 1 out of the 5 of them ended up in the hospital.


I’m going to word that exact statement in a different way...

“5 people had mild COVID symptoms and did nothing. 4 out of 5 were fine.”

Not saying this proves anything at all because we know nothing about any of these people or whether they even had COVID, but how is this an argument for jumping on treatment early?


----------



## Mikev7305

2manyGuitars said:


> Not saying this proves anything at all because we know nothing about any of these people or whether they even had COVID, but how is this an argument for jumping on treatment early?


The fact I was pointing out is that none of them had any idea how to help themselves early on.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

Mikev7305 said:


> Early treatment recommended in Canada is go home and don't do a thing until the virus completely takes over your body. Go to the hospital when you can barely breathe. How did everyone get rid of their colds and flus before the pandemic? I've always taken basic immune boosting supplements like vitamin d, zinc, vitamin c, and then go for a run and sweat it out. Rarely do I ever get sick for more than a day or two. There's tons of home remedies I'm sure, but never has public health said anything about that kind of stuff. It boggles my mind how often I hear that people think there's NO WAY to help your immune system fight a virus.
> 
> A good buddy's family went through a bought of covid last week, so I asked what they were doing to help themselves through it. They said nothing at all and 1 out of the 5 of them ended up in the hospital.
> 
> Another buddy's mother in law got covid, and she has lupus and cystic fibrosis. Some pretty scary co morbidities if one were to get covid as well. Basically when she gets ANY sickness, she ends up in the hospital. She got on a every supplement she could scrounge up, vit d, vit b, vit c, elderberry tea, echinacea, zinc, etc. She got over it in 2 days. No hospital. She hasn't gotten sick without a hospital visit in 15 years. Supplements are a new thing to her since covid. Funny how none of this was ever recommended to her by a doctor


Cool story.

I've got one of my own. I know someone who got the vaccine. That person never had to visit the hospital. Weird, eh? 

By the way, I have to react to what you said here:

_It boggles my mind how often I hear that people think there's NO WAY to help your immune system fight a virus._

That's exactly what a vaccine does. It allows your immune system to fight the virus.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

HighNoon said:


> What was it our Minister of Health in charge said about Vitamin D as a useful preventive or prophylactic treatment.....It's Fake News. Fake News from a Fake Minister of Health.


Please provide a reputable link to back up this statement. And it's unclear what is fake news here: what the minister supposedly said? Or that the minister said it at all? And how is the minister fake? Are we seeing a cardboard cutout on TV or a hologram? 

To me , it really seems like you are vying for the role of Minister of Health. Maybe wait until the next election?


----------



## zztomato

isoneedacoffee said:


> Please provide a reputable link to back up this statement. And it's unclear what is fake news here: what the minister supposedly said? Or that the minister said it at all? And how is the minister fake? Are we seeing a cardboard cutout on TV or a hologram?
> 
> To me , it really seems like you are vying for the role of Minister of Health. Maybe wait until the next election?


Some just have a deep seated need to brand themselves. Sad.


----------



## Jim Wellington

isoneedacoffee said:


> Please provide a reputable link to back up this statement. And it's unclear what is fake news here: what the minister supposedly said? Or that the minister said it at all? And how is the minister fake? Are we seeing a cardboard cutout on TV or a hologram?


Here`s some help for ya....It was intended as sarcasm, so he can`t back it up. You know, sarcasm, that type of humour that`s sometimes born of frustration.



isoneedacoffee said:


> Cool story.
> 
> I've got one of my own. I know someone who got the vaccine. That person never had to visit the hospital. Weird, eh?


Here`s another cool story. But it really means nothing at all...so why bother.


----------



## Jim Wellington

zztomato said:


> Some just have a deep seated need to brand themselves. Sad.


i wouldn`t be so sure that many in this thread aren`t doing exactly that...yourself included, and yes, it is quite sad. But it`s been fun to watch. The more media piles on the fear, the more weak people look for groups to hide in. Safety in numbers ya know...unless of course there`s a spamdemic afloat. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what RJP110 and Hignoon are saying. I think fear has turned to hysteria, and predictably so, as intended by those instigating the message. Get a grip.

The amusing part for me is how the 2 guys in this thread who are questioning the generally accepted narrative, are so very much better informed than those throwing rocks at them.

If you`re satisfied with taking your health directives from beauracrats, pharmacuetical lobbiests and sold out media, and you are confident that "they `ve got this", great. Why even participate in this thread? Delusions of public service possibly? Are you "fighting the good fight" while the sources from where you get your opinions constantly change their directives to suit political expediency?

Think I`ll take a hard pass on that one...Good luck.


----------



## HighNoon

isoneedacoffee said:


> Please provide a reputable link to back up this statement. And it's unclear what is fake news here: what the minister supposedly said? Or that the minister said it at all? And how is the minister fake? Are we seeing a cardboard cutout on TV or a hologram?
> 
> To me , it really seems like you are vying for the role of Minister of Health. Maybe wait until the next election?







And to think we actually had a M.D. in that job before....


----------



## tomee2

Docs in Canada can't prescribe the ivermectin or hydroyQ stuff because it's not approved. If they did and you got really sick, they lose their license get sued etc. They have to stick what's been proven to work in peer reviewed studies.
I don't think we have the monocolodial (?) treatments that they do use in the US. The big politicians down there that got covid got it but I don't think it's available for anyone.
Vitamin supplements are always good if you're someone who doesn't eat good food, but if you eat well you don't really need them. 
Basically, my feelings are get vaccinated. And if you're vaccinated or not continue to social distance, stay healthy, avoid being around sick people... eventually it will burn out .. I hope.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Mikev7305 said:


> The fact I was pointing out is that none of them had any idea how to help themselves early on.


And here’s a perfect example of confirmation bias.

You see the example as these 5 people had no idea what to do, did nothing, and 1 of them wound up in the hospital. Doctors were no help.

I see it as “Doctor said there’s not much we can do. Go home and get some rest.”
They did just that and they were all fine except for one. Doctors were right.

We each have our own view and neither one will likely change. Unless I have a lot more info, which you have because it’s a good friend.


----------



## zztomato

Jim Wellington said:


> i wouldn`t be so sure that many in this thread aren`t doing exactly that...yourself included


How is that exactly? I don't post my political views. My approach to this thread, and the few posts I have contributed, have not been political at all. I am also open to whatever valid information is posted- including whatever new treatments are available. 


Jim Wellington said:


> There is absolutely nothing wrong with what RJP110 (is) saying.


I agree. Never said there was anything wrong with it. My apologies if you feel offended. 
The problem here is that there are people who are blatantly political in their posts. This is a guitar forum. I don't want to know your political affiliations.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim Wellington said:


> I think fear has turned to hysteria, and predictably so, as intended by those instigating the message. Get a grip.


. 
I don't think anyone who's been vaccinated is living in fear - I know I'm not. I got my jab the second I could - as did Maggs, my kids, my co-workers. I'll admit to being a bit afraid prior to vaccination but I'm confident that the vax is doing it's job and the numbers I see support that. The people who have been vaccinated have done their bit and we'd wish those "unjabbed" folks would get theirs so we can put the world back together. I have plenty of health issues. I've been pumped full of stranger's blood several times. There's a chunk of cadaver's flesh holding my side together. I've been poked regularly with things I know nothing about just to live and travel.

If I'm afraid of anything it's not ever being able to go out in the world free of these regulations, masking, testing. It's not being able to assemble with people I care about. Gig for a floor full of dancers, slap backs and hug those I want to. So am I afraid? No - but I am angry at those who are holding my life back for stupid, selfish reasons.


----------



## HighNoon

tomee2 said:


> Docs in Canada can't prescribe the ivermectin or hydroyQ stuff because it's not approved. If they did and you got really sick, they lose their license get sued etc. They have to stick what's been proven to work in peer reviewed studies.
> I don't think we have the monocolodial (?) treatments that they do use in the US. The big politicians down there that got covid got it but I don't think it's available for anyone.
> Vitamin supplements are always good if you're someone who doesn't eat good food, but if you eat well you don't really need them.
> Basically, my feelings are get vaccinated. And if you're vaccinated or not continue to social distance, stay healthy, avoid being around sick people... eventually it will burn out .. I hope.


There were no peer reviewed studies for the treatment of Covid 19. It was a real time learning experience. Remember early on every hospital needed more ventilators (wasn't Traynor building them for awhile.....what a great bunch), and then they found that putting patients on them too early was leading to increased mortality, and that a simple thing like putting people on their stomachs helped with breathing.

No one used cortico-steroids in those days. Now it's part of hospital treatments (interesting as this was driven by Doctors with the FLCCC who were and are on the front line treating patients with Covid). Drugs like Ivermectin (scabies, parasites), HCQ (malaria, RA, lupus), Fluvoxamine (a SSRI drug) have been used in different countries as repurposed drugs, and shown to be of value in treatment situations. They were figuring it out as they went along....real field trials. I know there are clinics set up in Florida to administer Monoclonal Antibodies (Regeneron) intravenously. They have been successful.

The mRNA injections have proven to be effective for about 6 months before the efficacy starts to wane, and are now showing to be, shall we say, questionable, in dealing with the Delta variant (and no wonder since they focus on the spike from the original strain). So, why talk of a booster of the same stuff when the virus has already changed.

So, moving forward, an open dialogue is important, in dealing with an ever changing landscape.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

We got our second jabs here too. We are not afraid, but we are cautious just the same. Do we think we can catch it?....Yes, we do. We also think that we would have a better chance of it being less of an ordeal now too. People keep quoting that the survivability rate is 99%(?), but that's an average, but is it for me personally? I'd rather not find out.

I have no qualms with people taking a few extra vitamins. I've thought about it too and likely will. It's not going to hurt me. Doctors don't prescibe or treat with vitamins any more because insurance companies don't cover them any more. That's just a profits based decision that insurance companies made, so Drs. look at what the patient can get that is covered by premiums. It just fell off their radar because of the economic situations they encounter so often.

If anyone has had success fighting it off, all I can say is congratulations, and, good for you. Vaccinated or not. 

The medical profession is still learning about this virus, that's what science does. It reccomends what they know now, and if more valid information comes up, they then know something else to help (or not). As much as we (here) are discussing and observing, professionals are likely doing that 1000 fold. We won't hear of anything new from them until they are SURE. That takes time and it's also a process. They have to do all the checks and balances so they can be sure. There is a lot of information to go through daily.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

HighNoon said:


> There were no peer reviewed studies for the treatment of Covid 19. It was a real time learning experience. Remember early on every hospital needed more ventilators (wasn't Traynor building them for awhile.....what a great bunch), and then they found that putting patients on them too early was leading to increased mortality, and that a simple thing like putting people on their stomachs helped with breathing.
> 
> No one used cortico-steroids in those days. Now it's part of hospital treatments (interesting as this was driven by Doctors with the FLCCC who were and are on the front line treating patients with Covid). Drugs like Ivermectin (scabies, parasites), HCQ (malaria, RA, lupus), Fluvoxamine (a SSRI drug) have been used in different countries as repurposed drugs, and shown to be of value in treatment situations. They were figuring it out as they went along....real field trials. I know there are clinics set up in Florida to administer Monoclonal Antibodies (Regeneron) intravenously. They have been successful.
> 
> The mRNA injections have proven to be effective for about 6 months before the efficacy starts to wane, and are now showing to be, shall we say, questionable, in dealing with the Delta variant (and no wonder since they focus on the spike from the original strain). So, why talk of a booster of the same stuff when the virus has already changed.
> 
> So, moving forward, an open dialogue is important, in dealing with an ever changing landscape.


Almost this entire post can be summed up by “as time passes and we learn more, we change our tactics”.

I see a LOT of the hardcore, anti-COVID types filling their FB page with memes talking about “You can’t trust big pharma/CDC/WHO/Fauci/scientists/doctors/government because they told us one thing and then, they told us something different. LIARS!!!”

At least _some_ people understand that things can evolve at a rapid pace when you have 10s of millions of test subjects over the course of a few months. Thank you for that.


----------



## tonewoody

Modern medicine isn't perfect. Nothing is.

That said, think about the events in your life where you benefited from modern science and medicine. How would your life be different without?

If you didn't die by the age of five, you would probably be painfully crippled and diseased for the rest of your much shortened life. All of us would have been dead decades ago.

Surprisingly, "Modern medicine's" track record for making the majority of peoples lives significantly better isn't appreciated by some. Sure, some bad things have happened, no need to point out. Lots of great things too.

Sadly, still no cure for stupid.


----------



## JBFairthorne

“Death therapy Bob. Guaranteed cure.”


----------



## jaydubz

2manyGuitars said:


> Almost this entire post can be summed up by “as time passes and we learn more, we change our tactics”.
> 
> I see a LOT of the hardcore, anti-COVID types filling their FB page with memes talking about “You can’t trust big pharma/CDC/WHO/Fauci/scientists/doctors/government because they told us one thing and then, they told us something different. LIARS!!!”
> 
> At least _some_ people understand that things can evolve at a rapid pace when you have 10s of millions of test subjects over the course of a few months. Thank you for that.


It's crazy they say we can't trust big pharmas, but want Ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine for covid. Who do they think make those meds? If they already have meds on the market for covid, why would they heavily invest into a vaccine? Just jack up the price of those meds and they can make even more money.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

jaydubz said:


> It's crazy they say we can't trust big pharmas, but want Ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine for covid. Who do they think make those meds? If they already have meds on the market for covid, why would they heavily invest into a vaccine? Just jack up the price of those meds and they can make even more money.


Yes, the “I refuse to put something in my body I know nothing about” but are happily taking horse paste and aquarium cleaner.


----------



## HighNoon

2manyGuitars said:


> Almost this entire post can be summed up by “as time passes and we learn more, we change our tactics”.
> 
> I see a LOT of the hardcore, anti-COVID types filling their FB page with memes talking about “You can’t trust big pharma/CDC/WHO/Fauci/scientists/doctors/government because they told us one thing and then, they told us something different. LIARS!!!”
> 
> At least _some_ people understand that things can evolve at a rapid pace when you have 10s of millions of test subjects over the course of a few months. Thank you for that.


The post was about the evolution of treatment protocols and to some extent that can be carried over to the cast of characters you mention.

For example, at the end of March 2021, Dr. Rochelle Walensky, Director of the CDC said that their data suggests, vaccinated people don't get sick, don't transmit the virus....and that is from clinical and real world data. OK....but can you really say that (I know you want to inspire confidence in the populace, especially around the topic of vaccination). She's talking about an experimental substance given emergency authorization usage....there had never been a challenge study to see what would happen to those vaccinated when exposed to the virus. Now we know.

Fauci....this guy is so deep into the whole gain of function research....more examples are coming out all the time about carrying on these projects in Wuhan, even when the research was suspended in the U.S. This is a very dark world and his involvement in it, either through second or third party money laundering, is the road taken that has lead the world into the present nightmare.

WHO....it appeared in the early stages they were covering for China and simply mouthing and repeating what they were told by the CCP. A Taiwan delegation (who actually went to Wuhan) at the end of December 2019, blew the whistle on what was a dangerous airborne pathogen, and were promptly ignored by the WHO, who didn't even send a team to Wuhan to investigate. Come the Chinese New Year end of January, and hundreds of thousands of people flying from Wuhan all over the world, and still nothing. Their job is to get on the ground and investigate...that's their mandate. Second week of March the WHO declare a pandemic....late....very late....too late. And then the team they sent this year to investigate the origins of the virus, had Peter Daszak, Eco Health Alliance on the team. The same guy who funneled money from the NIH to Wuhan through his organization for gain of function research. 

Big Pharma....Pfizer's estimated take this year will run around $33 billion....what else can you say....not bad for a 'leaky' vaccine.

I understand these people's frustration who are posting on social media sites.


----------



## Brian Johnston

jaydubz said:


> It's crazy they say we can't trust big pharmas, but want Ivermectin or hydroxychloroquine for covid. Who do they think make those meds? If they already have meds on the market for covid, why would they heavily invest into a vaccine? Just jack up the price of those meds and they can make even more money.


Difficult to say, but then this current research/observation does put into question why things in the vax exists: Cause of death after COVID-19 vaccination & Undeclared components of the COVID-19 vaccines


----------



## tonewoody




----------



## tonewoody

The truth is right in front of you


----------



## player99

After I get the Covid shot will I be able to play the piano?


----------



## SWLABR

Paul Running said:


> Maybe we should all live in plastic bubbles.
> 
> View attachment 380865


“It’s Moops!”
It’s Moors!
Moops!

pop….ppffffftttttt…. 

Sorry, wrong Bubble Boy.


----------



## sulphur

Brian Johnston said:


> Difficult to say, but then this current research/observation does put into question why things in the vax exists: Cause of death after COVID-19 vaccination & Undeclared components of the COVID-19 vaccines











Odysee: The New YouTube for the Far-Right - GNET







gnet-research.org


----------



## Guitar101

I received this document this morning from a neighbour who's elderly mother lives in a long term care home here in Ontario. It's entitled "Testing Positive After Vaccination".

September 22, 2021

Testing positive after COVID vaccination

I have received many questions lately about people testing positive for COVID after being partially or
fully vaccinated. It often leads to the question, “do the vaccines even work?”
The answer is, yes, the vaccines work. I cannot emphasize enough the importance of vaccination for
protecting everybody in our homes. We are in the midst of wave 4 and the most dominant strain of
the virus in Canada, and around the world, is the Delta variant. This variant is much more
transmissible than any of the previous variants we have seen. And while the vaccines are still very
good at protecting against serious illness and death, the level of protection is slightly lower with the
Delta variant. This is one of the reasons we are seeing people test positive after vaccination (known
as “breakthrough infections”). A second reason is that as population-level vaccination coverage
increases, vaccinated persons represent a larger proportion of the population, and therefore, a larger
number of people testing positive. Breakthrough infections are expected because no vaccine is 100%
effective. But those people who experience a breakthrough infection are much less likely to develop
serious illness, hospitalization and death than those who are unvaccinated. The drastic reduction in
cases among our residents once vaccines were introduced tells us everything we need to know about
how effective they are.
Even though residents in Long Term Care and Retirement Living have been fully vaccinated, they
remain at high risk for breakthrough infections because their immune response to the vaccine may be
reduced because of health conditions and the length of time since they were first vaccinated. In
Ontario, we have begun rolling out the third doses for our long term care residents. Some provinces
have begun to follow suit for long term care and retirement residents. Revera has asked governments
across the country to offer third vaccine shots to our retirement living residents as well as those in
long term care. This is based on compelling research that shows that the antibody response to the
vaccine begins to diminish after five to six months in older adults and for individuals with
compromised immune systems. The homes continue to do all they can to protect our residents by
getting vaccinated and following strict infection prevention and control practices, and I ask that friends
and family members who visit do the same.
Even if you have been fully vaccinated, please continue to wear your masks and maintain physical
distancing when out in public, especially when around other people who may not be vaccinated.
Continue to wash your hands often and follow the rules of the home when visiting. This helps to
protect our residents, their families and our staff, not only against COVID-19 but other viruses that
cause respiratory illness like the flu.


----------



## starjag

It does not matter which “side” you are in, any time you dehumanize the other, for any reason, using any means, there is fear.


----------



## Brian Johnston

sulphur said:


> Odysee: The New YouTube for the Far-Right - GNET
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> gnet-research.org


Huh, I was looking for a rebuttal of the findings, but instead got a propaganda piece from the far left. Typical. Scientific findings are neither left nor right, don't ya know.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

Brian Johnston said:


> Difficult to say, but then this current research/observation does put into question why things in the vax exists: Cause of death after COVID-19 vaccination & Undeclared components of the COVID-19 vaccines


Sorry, but I am not going to watch a video dubbed into English that lasts 2.5 hours. I watched a bit. The names were never displayed, so it's hard to find background info on the presenters. I didn't pick up on any mention of legitimate peer-reviewed research, etc. And, it's not entirely clear that it's even real. It could be entirely staged as far as I can tell. 

For research that is supposedly so earthshaking, the attendance is pathetic. I wonder why?


----------



## Brian Johnston

isoneedacoffee said:


> Sorry, but I am not going to watch a video dubbed into English that lasts 2.5 hours. I watched a bit. The names were never displayed, so it's hard to find background info on the presenters. I didn't pick up on any mention of legitimate peer-reviewed research, etc. And, it's not entirely clear that it's even real. It could be entirely staged as far as I can tell.
> 
> For research that is supposedly so earthshaking, the attendance is pathetic. I wonder why?


They introduced themselves and provided a background. There was no audience attendance... it was a Skype thing because the people came from all over. It was in Europe, and a presentation of findings. Whatever.


----------



## sulphur

Brian Johnston said:


> Huh, I was looking for a rebuttal of the findings, but instead got a propaganda piece from the far left. Typical. Scientific findings are neither left nor right, don't ya know.


It refutes your nutjob source. A hub of misinformation, that negates the "findings".
Nothing from parler, rabble or OAN?


----------



## Brian Johnston

sulphur said:


> It refutes your nutjob source. A hub of misinformation, that negates the "findings".
> Nothing from parler, rabble or OAN?


Refute the findings, Einstein, not that you actually watched it. Typical. Amazing... musicians used to be the rebels, like punk rockers, now they are the believers in the gov't and big pharma. Wow! And NEVER is there an argument against any opposing view; nothing but mockery and empty statements. Enjoy.


----------



## sulphur

Brian Johnston said:


> Refute the findings, Einstein, not that you actually watched it. Typical. Amazing... musicians used to be the rebels, like punk rockers, now they are the believers in the gov't and big pharma. Wow! And NEVER is there an argument against any opposing view; nothing but mockery and empty statements. Enjoy.


Why don't you tinfoil hat geniuses start your own thread, like was suggested many pages ago.


----------



## tonewoody

sulphur said:


> Why don't you tinfoil hat geniuses start your own thread, like was suggested many pages ago.


The "tinfoil mask" thread...

Do it!


----------



## sulphur

Brian Johnston said:


> Refute the findings, Einstein, not that you actually watched it. Typical. Amazing... musicians used to be the rebels, like punk rockers, now they are the believers in the gov't and big pharma. Wow! And NEVER is there an argument against any opposing view; nothing but mockery and empty statements. Enjoy.


That site is full of idiots deplatformed/booted from other sites because of spreading misinformation, Einstein.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

This thread is about to turn to shit.
In before the lock...


----------



## sulphur

2manyGuitars said:


> This thread is about to turn to shit.
> In before the lock...


It's the same few that keep repeating their tired BS.
They've been asked to start their own thread instead of getting this one locked down.


----------



## Wardo

They need to close the open mic forum; that would be hilarious - too many people here expressing their opinions about this stuff and that's not needed on a guitar board. The AGF bans all discussion about C19 and everyone there is happy talking about bridge pins, tilly hats, which side to approach your guitar case from before opening it and whether or not James Taylor's tuning video is more interesting than his music.


----------



## davetcan

Wardo said:


> They need to close the open mic forum; that would be hilarious - too many people here expressing their opinions about this stuff and that's not needed on a guitar board. The AGF bans all discussion about C19 and everyone there is happy talking about bridge pins, tilly hats, which side to approach your guitar case from before opening it and whether or not James Taylor's tuning video is more interesting than his music.


It's crossed my mind a few times. The days of open discourse that doesn't devolve into name calling and personal insults appears to be beyond many members of this forum these days.

C'est la vie. It used to be fun.


----------



## colchar

Wardo said:


> They need to close the open mic forum; that would be hilarious - too many people here expressing their opinions about this stuff and that's not needed on a guitar board. The AGF bans all discussion about C19 and everyone there is happy talking about bridge pins, tilly hats, which side to approach your guitar case from before opening it and whether or not James Taylor's tuning video is more interesting than his music.


The tuning video is easily more interesting than his music. Actually, the sound of my microwave is more interesting than his music.


----------



## colchar

Brian Johnston said:


> Difficult to say, but then this current research/observation does put into question why things in the vax exists: Cause of death after COVID-19 vaccination & Undeclared components of the COVID-19 vaccines


Not sure what's funnier, your flat earth shit or this crap. Probably the flat earth shit because it is, ultimately, harmless whereas this crap is downright fucking dangerous.


----------



## colchar

RJP110 said:


> I found this video quite informative on the importance of early treatment for CV19. This is purely anecdotal but the success is dramatic. And for $2.65 a person it's a remarkably cheap and safe treatment. As we all know, India was blasted with delta. Now their deaths are roughly 300 per day (for reference, the USA is over 2000) and they have 1.3 billion people vs 328 million in the Usa. Also, their vaccination rate is around 40% which is considerably lower than most other countries. What did they do different from USA/Canada? They initiated a coordinated effort to get all new CV19 cases an early treatment kit. This included SP02 monitor, thermometer, Ivermectin, doxycycline and a few other meds. This also allowed 90% of positive cases to be treated at home and NOT require hospitalization. Again, not taking away from vaccination but as Sars-COV2 mutates, we will need to adopt a multi faceted approach if we ever truly want to end this madness.




🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## HighNoon

Brian Johnston said:


> Difficult to say, but then this current research/observation does put into question why things in the vax exists: Cause of death after COVID-19 vaccination & Undeclared components of the COVID-19 vaccines


 Prof. Burkhardt, the pathologist, shows interesting slides pertaining to lymphocyte infiltration of various organs throughout the body (spleen, liver, brain, stomach, uterus etc.) causing extreme inflammation events, and of course the heart (myocarditis), not explained by typical heart infarctions. This is in keeping with Dr. Malone's statements about the spike protein in the vaccine as a cytotoxin. And the mention of noticing Hashimoto's disease (a relatively rare auto immune disorder of the thyroid), is also interesting.
And what's all that 'stuff' floating around in the vaccines. Japan rejected 2.6 million dosages of the Moderna, and I remember stainless steel was mentioned. He jokes that it's great stuff, but potentially problematic in the human body (yes, pathologists have a sense of humor). You expect to see aluminum (an adjuvant to increase immune response and proteins etc.), but what's with the string like elements and all the other weird 'stuff'.....stuff, a modern medical term.
As Prof Lang said, we can see the phenomena but now have to show the relation....so a preliminary report with another few thousand hours ahead in the lab looking at all the 'stuff'.


----------



## RJP110

isoneedacoffee said:


> For those of you pushing for alternative forms of early treatment, what exactly is wrong with the treatment currently being offered in Canada? And if there is something wrong, why do you think you have the answer but our specialists don’t?


I can only speak for my experience but there really isn’t any early treatment. This may not be the case in other areas of Canada but I do have colleagues in Calgary as well as Toronto that say the same. The overwhelming majority of times the patient presents to the ED or assessment centre and if their SP02 isn’t impacted they are sent home with nothing. And Many then present back within the next 3-10 days needing admission and/or intubation.


----------



## RJP110

Jim Wellington said:


> i wouldn`t be so sure that many in this thread aren`t doing exactly that...yourself included, and yes, it is quite sad. But it`s been fun to watch. The more media piles on the fear, the more weak people look for groups to hide in. Safety in numbers ya know...unless of course there`s a spamdemic afloat. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what RJP110 and Hignoon are saying. I think fear has turned to hysteria, and predictably so, as intended by those instigating the message. Get a grip.
> 
> The amusing part for me is how the 2 guys in this thread who are questioning the generally accepted narrative, are so very much better informed than those throwing rocks at them.
> 
> If you`re satisfied with taking your health directives from beauracrats, pharmacuetical lobbiests and sold out media, and you are confident that "they `ve got this", great. Why even participate in this thread? Delusions of public service possibly? Are you "fighting the good fight" while the sources from where you get your opinions constantly change their directives to suit political expediency?
> 
> Think I`ll take a hard pass on that one...Good luck.


Thanks for this, Jim. And thanks to all that have reached out. It means a lot. Im not embarrassed to admit I’ve changed my opinion on many aspects of Covid multiple times during the past 20 months. I’ve went from “this is nothing” to absolute fear…and then somewhere in the middle. For reference, Ive worked front line in the ED as well as ICU since 1997. I’ve worked in Canada as well as Texas, Georgia and Cali. I’ve also worked through SARS and H1N1. I’ve seen the devastation first hand from the virus as well as the public health measures put in place. I’ve had friends and patients die from Covid. I’ve had teens die of suicide due to the inaccessibility of mental health resources due to lockdowns. I’ve also been the person that couldn’t allow a family member in to be with their dying father. I have a healthy respect for this virus but also have seen first hand the media hyperbole and fear mongering that just isn’t factual. Unfortunately all I do is read studies and look at data and try to be open minded and reference the academic with what I actually see. I’m not saying I’m “right” with all my opinions but it’s not about being right. It’s about asking the questions openly in regards to what we are doing, what’s worked and what we could do differently. I’m not here to get in some Covid pissing match with internet trolls. So save your snarky comments as I just don’t have the energy to respond. I’m just here to share (what I think) is a balanced perspective from someone who has literally been in the Covid trenches at least 4 days a week the past 20 months.


----------



## tonewoody

One person's account of their recent experience in an Edmonton Hospital.


----------



## Brian Johnston

sulphur said:


> Why don't you tinfoil hat geniuses start your own thread, like was suggested many pages ago.





sulphur said:


> That site is full of idiots deplatformed/booted from other sites because of spreading misinformation, Einstein.


Indicate the misinformation in that video. Oh, that's right, you don't have the attention span to watch it, nor the information to challenge it. You're the one wearing the tinfoil hat.


----------



## Brian Johnston

colchar said:


> Not sure what's funnier, your flat earth shit or this crap. Probably the flat earth shit because it is, ultimately, harmless whereas this crap is downright fucking dangerous.


What's even funnier is the inability of yourself or others to prove a curve, LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Brian Johnston

davetcan said:


> It's crossed my mind a few times. The days of open discourse that doesn't devolve into name calling and personal insults appears to be beyond many members of this forum these days.
> 
> C'est la vie. It used to be fun.


Yes, I agree... I merely posted a recent video of what researchers have discovered, and consider the backlash from those who don't even want to invest the time watching it. Which is fine... don't watch, but to start slinging tin-hat BS is uncalled for. Heck, I never even made an opinion about it.


----------



## SWLABR

Brian Johnston said:


> Huh, I was looking for a rebuttal of the findings, but instead got a propaganda piece from the far left. Typical. *Scientific findings are neither left nor right, don't ya know.*


Uh…. no…. 
“Scientific findings” can be skewed left, right, around (a flat) earth, and straight into (a nonexistent) outer space (created in a Hollywood basement).

Your “source” speaks volumes of where _you_ want the narrative to go.

Fox & CNN can report on the (seemingly) exact same story, but the outcome will be very different. 

Dontcha know! 

…you’re very naive to think otherwise.


----------



## Always12AM

Everyone I have met who is opposed to the vaccine would die within hours of being in the wild without substantial support from the government.


----------



## Milkman

Always12AM said:


> Everyone I have met who is opposed to the vaccine would die within hours of being in the wild without substantial support from the government.


That's funny. Maybe true. I think survival without outside support would be a challenge for many of us. Preparedness is one thing, but common sense in many people doesn't seem to be something we can count on.


----------



## Brian Johnston

SWLABR said:


> Uh…. no….
> “Scientific findings” can be skewed left, right, around (a flat) earth, and straight into (a nonexistent) outer space (created in a Hollywood basement).
> 
> Your “source” speaks volumes of where _you_ want the narrative to go.
> 
> Fox & CNN can report on the (seemingly) exact same story, but the outcome will be very different.
> 
> Dontcha know!
> 
> …you’re very naive to think otherwise.


Science: a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the world. Whatever a 'news' source decides to do with the information is not science, but a choice in how they wish to report it. It's irrelevant to the CONCEPT of the word SCIENCE.


----------



## Brian Johnston

Always12AM said:


> Everyone I have met who is opposed to the vaccine would die within hours of being in the wild without substantial support from the government.


Unlike all the Grizzly Adams who got the vaccine?


----------



## Always12AM

Milkman said:


> That's funny. Maybe true. I think survival without outside support would be a challenge for many of us. Preparedness is one thing, but common sense in many people doesn't seem to be something we can count on.


Most people’s bodies are so dependant on refined sugar and other manufactured complex carbohydrates that more than half of all human beings immune systems would crash within the first week of no hydroelectricity.

Then of course, whoever is left would have to compete for the prime real estate.. fresh water.. proximity and hunting grounds.

It would take decades for the wild animal population to repopulate and find its way through all of the man made obstacles and back to the land surrounding river beds and coastal regions.. it would be slim pickings for a while.

The sad truth is that most people are too fat and weak to generate or secure the food and travel the distances needed to sustain their own life.

Living in this society is a game. We all have to cooperate if we want to enjoy the luxuries of it. Power in this society comes from things that are useless in the wild. Sadly, it’s usually the people who are the most marginalized with the least amount of access who rely the most heavily on the modern structure of society and they are in turn the most resentful of it.

I didn’t get the vaccine because I trust or fear our government, I got it because I want to be able to participate in the game and mount my girlfriend in an air conditioned residential dwelling. The second that I am unable to compete for resources in this society, I will just move to a third world country and use my education to start a cult.


----------



## Milkman

Always12AM said:


> Most people’s bodies are so dependant on refined sugar and other manufactured complex carbohydrates that more than half of all human beings immune systems would crash within the first week of no hydroelectricity.
> 
> Then of course, whoever is left would have to compete for the prime real estate.. fresh water.. proximity and hunting grounds.
> 
> It would take decades for the wild animal population to repopulate and find its way through all of the man made obstacles and back to the land surrounding river beds and coastal regions.. it would be slim pickings for a while.
> 
> The sad truth is that most people are too fat and weak to generate or secure the food and travel the distances needed to sustain their own life.
> 
> Living in this society is a game. We all have to cooperate if we want to enjoy the luxuries of it. Power in this society comes from things that are useless in the wild. Sadly, it’s usually the people who are the most marginalized with the least amount of access who rely the most heavily on the modern structure of society and they are in turn the most resentful of it.
> 
> I didn’t get the vaccine because I trust or fear our government, I got it because I want to be able to participate in the game and mount my girlfriend in an air conditioned residential dwelling. The second that I am unable to compete for resources in this society, I will just move to a third world country and use my education to start a cult.


Do you mean mount as in taxidermy or as in studly McStudmuffin?


----------



## Always12AM

Brian Johnston said:


> Unlike all the Grizzly Adams who got the vaccine?


I got both shots in the jugular before even knowing if it would make my dick fall off… so ya.. I’d say I’m a man of risk and adventure.


----------



## Always12AM

Milkman said:


> Do you mean mount as in taxidermy or as in studly McStudmuffin?


I don’t even consider it sex if anyone within a 3km radius survives the impact


----------



## SWLABR

Brian Johnston said:


> Science: a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the world. Whatever a 'news' source decides to do with the information is not science, but a choice in how they wish to report it. It's irrelevant to the CONCEPT of the word SCIENCE.


Oh brother… 

@sulphur did not try shed doubt on the science, he doubted the source! The people taking raw facts, then only speaking to the points that back their argument.


----------



## Jim Wellington

allthumbs56 said:


> .
> I don't think anyone who's been vaccinated is living in fear - I know I'm not. I got my jab the second I could - as did Maggs, my kids, my co-workers. I'll admit to being a bit afraid prior to vaccination but I'm confident that the vax is doing it's job and the numbers I see support that. The people who have been vaccinated have done their bit and we'd wish those "unjabbed" folks would get theirs so we can put the world back together. I have plenty of health issues. I've been pumped full of stranger's blood several times. There's a chunk of cadaver's flesh holding my side together. I've been poked regularly with things I know nothing about just to live and travel.
> 
> If I'm afraid of anything it's not ever being able to go out in the world free of these regulations, masking, testing. It's not being able to assemble with people I care about. Gig for a floor full of dancers, slap backs and hug those I want to. So am I afraid? No - but I am angry at those who are holding my life back for stupid, selfish reasons.


I`m not presently holding anyone back from anything, I never have. I have to answer this way as your comments lead to making me responsible for personal choices you make. Letting the media shift blame away from those in charge, onto a group that won`t comply, is something I hope rank and file citizens catch onto some day, but I won`t hold my breath becasue it`s a very old tactic and haters just love to hate.

Your decision making....taking a non sterilizing immune booster that is very specific in it`s effects. It`s already failing in it`s intended purpose, and causing another health care complication in that it gives those who used it, a public license, with vaccine card in tow, to move freely in society. With a breakthrough infection scenario, and continuing claims of asymtomatic "vaccinated" carriers, I think it would be overly optimistic to feel relaxed on a packed dancefloor full of inebriated stressed out folks. Delta is "super contagious"...right?

The common cold(other Covid strains) and flu were never mastered with pseudo vaccines, and I bet they won`t be anytime soon. The solution of endless booster shots to control an ever evolving "enhanced Covid" is a maintenance program, not entirely based in good medicine. No ones getting indefinitely protected from these types of viruses.

You aren`t getting normal back anytime soon, and I think you do the rest of us a disservice by holding onto that fantasy. If you percieve the problem differently, the solutions correspondingly change.

To be honest, at this point I`m more scared of some of the people commenting in this thread than I am of Covid. Not becasue they migt be positive and asymptomatic, but becasue they would gladly pack the unvaccinated onto busses and send them to a place no ones heard of. Now that is truly effective division of the masses, all over virus that`s mostly surviveable.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim Wellington said:


> I`m not presently holding anyone back from anything, I never have. I have to answer this way as your comments lead to making me responsible for personal choices you make. Letting the media shift blame away from those in charge, onto a group that won`t comply, is something I hope rank and file citizens catch onto some day, but I won`t hold my breath becasue it`s a very old tactic and haters just love to hate.
> 
> Your decision making....taking a non sterilizing immune booster that is very specific in it`s effects. It`s already failing in it`s intended purpose, and causing another health care complication in that it gives those who used it, a public license, with vaccine card in tow, to move freely in society. With a breakthrough infection scenario, and continuing claims of asymtomatic "vaccinated" carriers, I think it would be overly optimistic to feel relaxed on a packed dancefloor full of inebriated stressed out folks. Delta is "super contagious"...right?
> 
> The common cold(other Covid strains) and flu were never mastered with pseudo vaccines, and I bet they won`t be anytime soon. The solution of endless booster shots to control an ever evolving "enhanced Covid" is a maintenance program, not entirely based in good medicine. No ones getting indefinitely protected from these types of viruses.
> 
> You aren`t getting normal back anytime soon, and I think you do the rest of us a disservice by holding onto that fantasy. If you percieve the problem differently, the solutions correspondingly change.
> 
> To be honest, at this point I`m more scared of some of the people commenting in this thread than I am of Covid. Not becasue they migt be positive and asymptomatic, but becasue they would gladly pack the unvaccinated onto busses and send them to a place no ones heard of. Now that is truly effective division of the masses, all over virus that`s mostly surviveable.


This argument weakens by the day. Over the weekend another 155,000 Canadians got their 1st jab. You're in an ever-shrinking minority Jim - but *I respect your choices* and have no desire to load you on a bus - contrary to that popular anti-vaxxer narrative. I'm just practical and hopeful, is all.

** Correction - I DON'T respect your choice - I ACCEPT it. I do wish I could change it and do hope that you will see the logic one day and decide for yourself - I really don't want anybody to catch this virus.


----------



## tomee2

Jim Wellington said:


> I`m not presently holding anyone back from anything, I never have. I have to answer this way as your comments lead to making me responsible for personal choices you make. Letting the media shift blame away from those in charge, onto a group that won`t comply, is something I hope rank and file citizens catch onto some day, but I won`t hold my breath becasue it`s a very old tactic and haters just love to hate.
> 
> Your decision making....taking a non sterilizing immune booster that is very specific in it`s effects. It`s already failing in it`s intended purpose, and causing another health care complication in that it gives those who used it, a public license, with vaccine card in tow, to move freely in society. With a breakthrough infection scenario, and continuing claims of asymtomatic "vaccinated" carriers, I think it would be overly optimistic to feel relaxed on a packed dancefloor full of inebriated stressed out folks. Delta is "super contagious"...right?
> 
> The common cold(other Covid strains) and flu were never mastered with pseudo vaccines, and I bet they won`t be anytime soon. The solution of endless booster shots to control an ever evolving "enhanced Covid" is a maintenance program, not entirely based in good medicine. No ones getting indefinitely protected from these types of viruses.
> 
> You aren`t getting normal back anytime soon, and I think you do the rest of us a disservice by holding onto that fantasy. If you percieve the problem differently, the solutions correspondingly change.
> 
> To be honest, at this point I`m more scared of some of the people commenting in this thread than I am of Covid. Not becasue they migt be positive and asymptomatic, but becasue they would gladly pack the unvaccinated onto busses and send them to a place no ones heard of. Now that is truly effective division of the masses, all over virus that`s mostly surviveable.


From the account of the person in the ICU the unvaccinated are getting packed up transported... right to the hospital with covid.


----------



## Diablo

One thing I struggle with, is the age for vaxx passport being 12.
Kids cant even get the first vax until they turn 12, so that puts them in a bit of limbo in terms of status for at least a couple of months, assuming they get the first shot on their birthday.
I think it should be a little bit higher.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

To date:

1.6 million cases in Canada
27,645 deaths

Worldwide: 219 million cases and 4.55 million deaths


----------



## allthumbs56

Diablo said:


> One thing I struggle with, is the age for vaxx passport being 12.
> Kids cant even get the first vax until they turn 12, so that puts them in a bit of limbo in terms of status for at least a couple of months, assuming they get the first shot on their birthday.
> I think it should be a little bit higher.


That is a bit of a grey area I guess. I would hope that "scrutinizers" exercise some judgement. It's not like most 12 year-olds carry id on themselves to begin with.


----------



## mhammer

There are two questions that vaccine-refusers never seem to want to answer or even address:

1) Would you like this virus to go away and not be such a pestilence and burden on everyone?

2) What steps do you think might help to expedite that?

Answer those, honestly and fully, and you can have all the rights you want. But unless one is prepared to do so, one becomes part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.

The contrarian attitude one sees on display in so many places seems to presume that a) public health officials are disinterest in doing their job to reduce human misery, b) governments are disinterested in restoring a functioning economy in all its facets (as well as doing what they can to reduce human misery), and c) neither are interested in finding and using the fastest and most effective ways to achieve that first goal.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> There are two questions that vaccine-refusers never seem to want to answer or even address:
> 
> 1) Would you like this virus to go away and not be such a pestilence and burden on everyone?
> 
> 2) What steps do you think might help to expedite that?



I'm stealing and plagiarising that.


----------



## Brian Johnston

Sept 6th update... all stats and data from VAERS


----------



## 2manyGuitars

I see most of the anti-vaccine crowd always trotting out the line “Vaccinated people still get infected so your vaccine is a failure. That’s one reason I won’t take it.” There’s also “Why should you care whether I take it or not?”.

Let me do a “reverse Uno” on the first statement (and it also addresses number 2). One of the reasons vaccinated still get infected is _because_ you won’t take it.

The vaccine was doing a great job protecting people from “run-of-the-mill COVID”. Your chances of getting it were slim if you were vaccinated. Had everyone done so, it would have gone a long way to getting everything back to normal. BUT, every time a virus reproduces, there’s a small chance a “birth defect”, better know as a mutation, makes it more resistant to the vaccine.

When a vaccinated host gets COVID, your immune system takes care of it before it has a chance to replicate in great numbers. This likely results in you having mild or no symptoms but also you have less virus to spread. When an unvaccinated host gets even regular “COVID Light”, it’s making millions and millions of copies. You’ll likely get sicker and you’re much more likely to spread it. But more importantly, if a handful of those happen to have a defect that makes them more resistant to your immune system, guess which ones will be replicating while the others are being killed off? Guess which one you’ll be spreading?

This is why people give a shit about vaccine refusers. Because in the US, there are roughly 100 million unvaccinated Petri dishes walking around, this Delta variant which has already become more resistant, is getting millions of more chances to spread and to get even worse. If we had vaccinated everyone earlier, we could have been dealing with “COVID Light”.

I don’t expect anyone of you to change your mind. If you want to roll the dice getting COVID, I’m beyond the point of caring what happens to you, but don’t try to fool yourself that your decisions only effect you.


----------



## Brian Johnston

mhammer said:


> There are two questions that vaccine-refusers never seem to want to answer or even address:
> 
> 1) Would you like this virus to go away and not be such a pestilence and burden on everyone?
> 
> 2) What steps do you think might help to expedite that?
> 
> Answer those, honestly and fully, and you can have all the rights you want. But unless one is prepared to do so, one becomes part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.
> 
> The contrarian attitude one sees on display in so many places seems to presume that a) public health officials are disinterest in doing their job to reduce human misery, b) governments are disinterested in restoring a functioning economy in all its facets (as well as doing what they can to reduce human misery), and c) neither are interested in finding and using the fastest and most effective ways to achieve that first goal.


Already had it... I have naturally built immunity. No need for the vaccine that does not prevent getting or giving (only reducing symptoms, apparently).Personally, I don't care who wants this experimental drug... it's a personal choice. But I don't care for those who claim that I'm "such and such" for not getting it. I know enough doctors and nurses, and not everyone in the healthcare field is in favor. It comes down to doing your researching and deciding based on individual requirements. I always wonder why people trust the gov't (like income taxes are for a short time... vax passports are for a short time... two weeks to flatten the curve, no money was given to the Wuhan lab, etc., etc., etc.) But, whatever. I don't even think most people know that 40% got a placebo, and that comes from someone with moderately high status in the Canadian military. After all, this is a trial period and they needed control groups... those who got it, those who think they got it, and those refusing it.


----------



## tonewoody

mhammer said:


> There are two questions that vaccine-refusers never seem to want to answer or even address:
> 
> 1) Would you like this virus to go away and not be such a pestilence and burden on everyone?
> 
> 2) What steps do you think might help to expedite that?


If I may be so bold....

When you get Covid, the likely outcomes for the unvaccinated are significantly worse than those who have been vaccinated. Not much to debate on this point.

3) Knowing the health risks, how do you justify your decision to remain unvaccinated?

@mhammer. I will happily scrap this "add-on" if you feel my input is not appropriate.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

tonewoody said:


> If I may be so bold....
> 3) When you get Covid, the likely outcomes for the unvaccinated are significantly worse than those have been the vaccinated. Not much to debate on this point. Knowing the health risks, how do you justify your decision to remain unvaccinated?


Rabbit-hole alert...









r/HermanCainAward


r/HermanCainAward: Nominees have made public declaration of their anti-mask, anti-vax, or Covid-hoax views, followed by admission to hospital for …




www.reddit.com


----------



## Brian Johnston

tonewoody said:


> If I may be so bold....
> 3) When you get Covid, the likely outcomes for the unvaccinated are significantly worse than those have been the vaccinated. Not much to debate on this point. Knowing the health risks, how do you justify your decision to remain unvaccinated?


A lot of people are asymptomatic... not even aware of having something that has a 99.7% of recovery (vs. taking an experimental drug with unknown consequences). But not to worry... the CEO of Pfizer was ABC news recently and said this:

“Within a year, I think we will be able to come back to normal life,” said Bourla, although he made it very clear that this statement only applies to *those who are prepared to take regular coronavirus booster shots*.

“I don’t think that this means that variants will not be continuing coming,” Bourla added. “And I don’t think that this means that we should be able to live our lives without having vaccinations, basically.”

And so, just like anything the gov't tells you, it ain't over yet! Roll up your sleeves.


----------



## tonewoody

Brian Johnston said:


> Roll up your sleeves.


Tough choice eh?
1) Roll up sleeve
2) Die an unnecessary horrible death


----------



## allthumbs56

tonewoody said:


> Tough choice eh?
> 1) Roll up sleeve
> 2) Die an unnecessary horrible death


You're forgetting that 40% just get a placebo  

Of course this means that 60% are getting the real jab - which means it's like 800% effective if we can get the military to back off and give us all the real thing.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Yet another example of how false information simply gets copied and pasted so much that it becomes accepted as fact, and also how wording matters.

“...something that has a 99.7% of recovery”.
*I assume they meant _rate_ of recovery

First of all, it’s actually closer to 98%. Canada has had roughly 28,000 deaths from 1.6 million cases. It doesn’t sound like much of a difference but it’s 1 out of 50 vs 1 out of 300.

Also, that’s using numbers from the last 18 months. If you take the numbers from the last 2 months where the mutant version has become much more virulent and deadly, it doubles to around 3.5%. That means around 1 of 30 who get it will die. And BTW, the reason that number is as low as that is due to the vaccinated cases who only get mild symptoms. You’re welcome, super-spreaders.

You’ll also notice that the word “recovery” is used. Ignoring the fact that the number itself is false, the word you’re looking for is “survival”. Many of those who don’t die, will never “recover” from the damage COVID has done to their body. They will live the rest of their greatly shortened lives with chronic health issues.

But “you do you”.


----------



## Brian Johnston

tonewoody said:


> Tough choice eh?
> 1) Roll up sleeve
> 2) Die an unnecessary horrible death


For some, it's been one in the same. For others, not. I'm still here, as are a dozen or so I know who had Covid. I know of two people who died within 48 hours of the vax (one in the USA and one in Canada), which is a low number. Of the people I know who took it, about 50% had adverse reactions (only one has been having long-term effects... has not disappeared yet). My point in that post is that the vaccine will NOT stop... it will be regular shots. Not exactly what the gov't told you, eh? And then we need to look at the cardio issues in the younger people... maybe discuss that information, particularly among a group that has very strong immune systems. So far, no one has addressed the stats, but suggesting the non-vax are 'selfish' and wearing tin-foil hats. Regardless, I really don't care who gets it... a person choice, but there's information out there for those hesitating. You don't like it, then don't read up on it, don't listen to EXPERTS on the other side of the fence. It's that simple.


----------



## Brian Johnston

2manyGuitars said:


> Yet another example of how false information simply gets copied and pasted so much that it becomes accepted as fact, and also how wording matters.
> 
> “...something that has a 99.7% of recovery”.
> *I assume they meant _rate_ of recovery
> 
> First of all, it’s actually closer to 98%. Canada has had roughly 28,000 deaths from 1.6 million cases. It doesn’t sound like much of a difference but it’s 1 out of 50 vs 1 out of 300.
> 
> Also, that’s using numbers from the last 18 months. If you take the numbers from the last 2 months where the mutant version has become much more virulent and deadly, it doubles to around 3.5%. That means around 1 of 30 who get it will die. And BTW, the reason that number is as low as that is due to the vaccinated cases who only get mild symptoms. You’re welcome, super-spreaders.
> 
> You’ll also notice that the word “recovery” is used. Ignoring the fact that the number itself is false, the word you’re looking for is “survival”. Many of those who don’t die, will never “recover” from the damage COVID has done to their body. They will live the rest of their greatly shortened lives with chronic health issues.
> 
> But “you do you”.


LOL, you do realize that information includes people who DIED WITH COVID and not as a result of Covid. That those who died were rather old, rather obese or had multiple co-morbidities. You do you. VAERS, on the other hand, is suggesting only 1% of negative effects are being reported. I'm sure you saw that nurse on Project Veritas who secretly recorded the doctors... one saying that the vaccine is "shit," and others admitting to NOT reporting the negative effects (including two deaths). The actual hospital and nurse's name was indicated, and so, it's not hard to find. More tin-foil hats, eh?


----------



## Brian Johnston

allthumbs56 said:


> You're forgetting that 40% just get a placebo
> 
> Of course this means that 60% are getting the real jab - which means it's like 800% effective if we can get the military to back off and give us all the real thing.


You're forgetting that all the injuries and deaths from the vaccine are based only on 60% of the population, and only about 1% reported. You also may not know that any vaccine over the years will get 4-5 clinical trials before releasing it to the public (and the Swine Flu vax, after only 10 or so deaths, was terminated due to those 10 deaths). So far, we're still in one massive clinical trial with no idea of long-term effects.


----------



## Brian Johnston

The video I recently posted (looking at the VAERS data) indicates why regular boosters can cause a problem... starting at the 49 minute mark.


----------



## allthumbs56

I am constantly amazed by how many people have become experts in science and medicine. I don't profess to be - I know numbers. That's where I'll stay. 😎


----------



## mhammer

tonewoody said:


> If I may be so bold....
> 
> When you get Covid, the likely outcomes for the unvaccinated are significantly worse than those who have been vaccinated. Not much to debate on this point.
> 
> 3) Knowing the health risks, how do you justify your decision to remain unvaccinated?
> 
> @mhammer. I will happily scrap this "add-on" if you feel my input is not appropriate.


Vaya con dios, my friend. Permission granted.

Mark


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> I am constantly amazed by how many people have become experts in science and medicine. I don't profess to be - I know numbers. That's where I'll stay. 😎


Ottawa continues to have one of the highest fully-vaccinated rates in the country (just over 83% today), and one of the lowest hospitalization, ICU, and death rates, as well as per capita case-counts, in the nation. At one level, that is an N of 1, which is usually feeble grounds for drawing inferences. But in this case, that N is equivalent to more than the entire population of Saskatchewan, and in the range of the population of Manitoba. It is about the same as the population of the Edmonton region, and pretty much most of Alberta, outside of Calgary and Edmonton. "Natural immunity" isn't doing any of them a helluva lot of good.

I don't say this to brag about Ottawa. Rather, as a test case of the advantages/virtues of immunization programs, it presents a pretty compelling case study.

There are people who, for a variety of reasons cannot, or perhaps should not, get vaccinated. A buddy and former co-worker has Krohn's disease, and went to get his poke. When the pharmacist expressed some uncertainty about the immune consequences, and went to check in the back, my buddy decided to forego his shot, and has stuck with that. He has had some bad drug reactions in recent years, and the Krohn's itself wears him down a lot. I'm still not dead sure he made the best choice, but his apprehensiveness is not simple contrarianism. He was happy that his wife is fully vaxxed, and encourages anyone who CAN get a shot to do so, because the fewer virus-spreading people there are around, the healthier he and those he cares for will stay. 

That's a far cry from the you-folks-can-do-whatever-the-hell-you-want-but-it's-my-right-to-refuse attitude I see bandied about by many.


----------



## JBFairthorne

I’ll be honest, I really don’t understand the naysayers NEED to argue back and forth in this thread. Yeah, we all get it, we’re all stupid, sheep, uninformed. You know best. Now will you please stop polluting this thread with your “truth” and leave it for those who wish to discuss all of our wrong information?

Please feel free to start another opposing thread.You can all sit around congratulating yourselves on how much smarter you are than the general public.

Seriously. Please stop. The last thing we need is another potentially informative thread needlessly locked because you feel it necessary to take every opportunity to present opposing views in such a way as to purposely provoke an argument. Clearly you’re not going to be convinced of the value of the vaccine. Nor are you going to convince anyone to not get vaccinated. Further input is pointless. You’ve had your 15 minutes, now please move on.


----------



## sulphur

I laugh at those that claim the reports of C19 deaths are wrong, but have anecdotal "evidence" of people dying from the vax. Sure thing.

Those VAERs claims were dispelled a few pages back, btw.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> I don't say this to brag about Ottawa. Rather, as a test case of the advantages/virtues of immunization programs, it presents a pretty compelling case study.


And this is why I track Portugal's progress. Back when the UK, US, and Israel were vaccinating like stink I was following them to get an idea of where "Late to the Party" Canada could hope to be. Those countries have fallen way back now and Portugal with a fully vaccinated rate of 84.88% (first jab is at 87.83%) they have captured my attention. As a 1st World democratic country they should serve as a pretty good indicator. I've read that they actually only have a vaccine-resistant population of 3% too.

I spend more time watching them than I do us


----------



## 2manyGuitars

mhammer said:


> Ottawa continues to have one of the highest fully-vaccinated rates in the country (just over 83% today), and one of the lowest hospitalization, ICU, and death rates, as well as per capita case-counts, in the nation. At one level, that is an N of 1, which is usually feeble grounds for drawing inferences. But in this case, that N is equivalent to more than the entire population of Saskatchewan, and in the range of the population of Manitoba. It is about the same as the population of the Edmonton region, and pretty much most of Alberta, outside of Calgary and Edmonton. "Natural immunity" isn't doing any of them a helluva lot of good.
> 
> I don't say this to brag about Ottawa. Rather, as a test case of the advantages/virtues of immunization programs, it presents a pretty compelling case study.
> 
> There are people who, for a variety of reasons cannot, or perhaps should not, get vaccinated. A buddy and former co-worker has Krohn's disease, and went to get his poke. When the pharmacist expressed some uncertainty about the immune consequences, and went to check in the back, my buddy decided to forego his shot, and has stuck with that. He has had some bad drug reactions in recent years, and the Krohn's itself wears him down a lot. I'm still not dead sure he made the best choice, but his apprehensiveness is not simple contrarianism. He was happy that his wife is fully vaxxed, and encourages anyone who CAN get a shot to do so, because the fewer virus-spreading people there are around, the healthier he and those he cares for will stay.
> 
> That's a far cry from the you-folks-can-do-whatever-the-hell-you-want-but-it's-my-right-to-refuse attitude I see bandied about by many.


And take any one of your examples, be it Saskatchewan, Manitoba, or Alberta (minus Calgary and Edmonton). They already have terrible COVID numbers, but just imagine cramming their entire population in an area similar to Ottawa.

They’re setting records for infections, hospitalizations, and deaths, and that’s WITH the considerable advantage of be spread over _huuuge_ areas.


----------



## JBFairthorne

allthumbs56 said:


> And this is why I track Portugal's progress. Back when the UK, US, and Israel were vaccinating like stink I was following them to get an idea of where "Late to the Party" Canada could hope to be. Those countries have fallen way back now and Portugal with a fully vaccinated rate of 84.88% (first jab is at 87.83%) they have captured my attention. As a 1st World democratic country they should serve as a pretty good indicator. I've read that they actually only have a vaccine-resistant population of 3% too.
> 
> I spend more time watching them than I do us


And how are they doing in comparison to us? Did your perceived similarities prove to be true?

Serious inquiry.


----------



## Always12AM

Brian Johnston said:


> Already had it... I have naturally built immunity. No need for the vaccine that does not prevent getting or giving (only reducing symptoms, apparently).Personally, I don't care who wants this experimental drug... it's a personal choice. But I don't care for those who claim that I'm "such and such" for not getting it. I know enough doctors and nurses, and not everyone in the healthcare field is in favor. It comes down to doing your researching and deciding based on individual requirements. I always wonder why people trust the gov't (like income taxes are for a short time... vax passports are for a short time... two weeks to flatten the curve, no money was given to the Wuhan lab, etc., etc., etc.) But, whatever. I don't even think most people know that 40% got a placebo, and that comes from someone with moderately high status in the Canadian military. After all, this is a trial period and they needed control groups... those who got it, those who think they got it, and those refusing it.


I won’t even drive through Sudbury without a condom on.. you should seriously consider getting the shot if you live there.


----------



## allthumbs56

JBFairthorne said:


> And how are they doing in comparison to us? Did your perceived similarities prove to be true?
> 
> Serious inquiry.


With a population of 10.1 million they had 885 new cases yesterday and 5 deaths. Canada, with a population of 37.7 million had 4,598 new cases and 44 deaths. That's Canada with 70.33% fully vaxxed and 76.35 first dosed vs 84.88% fully and 87.83 first dosed for Portugal. They've got 15% more of their population vaccinated than Canada - for us that's another 5.5 million people. That's a long way to go, and at about 50,000 new jabs a day that's 100 days. Regardless , the trends are promising.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

A couple of days ago I spoke to one of my best friends. He's a doctor in the U.S. A few things really stood out for me from that conversation:

1) He described how he and other health professionals have started to feel anger toward unvaccinated patients arriving with COVID and taking up hospital beds. He expressed how disturbing it was as a doctor to feel such a sentiment, and he couldn't understand why it would be different from someone, for example, who arrives with health conditions due to life choices such as smoking, poor eating habits, etc. A fellow doctor advised him that it's totally different: the latter example is someone who overwhelmingly only affects themselves, whereas the unvaccinated affect everyone - the community at large of course, but also my friend's relationship with his own family. Doctors are working way over time, and it's been like that for more than a year and a half. His relationship with his kids has been affected. In short, sadly, he's realized it's a justified anger.

2) He still doesn't understand how some people are so unwilling to get vaccinated, yet demand completely unproven, experimental, drugs as treatment when they arrive at the hospital.

3) He described having to tell people that their (unvaccinated) loved ones had died, and how some people would say things like "what could we have done differently?" and he was dumbfounded. It's so, so, simple.


----------



## allthumbs56

isoneedacoffee said:


> 3) He described having to tell people that their (unvaccinated) loved ones had died, and how some people would say things like "*what could we have done differently?*" and he was dumbfounded. It's so, so, simple.


That's the question we'd ask ourselves at the end of every rolled-out software development. The meeting was appropriately called a "Post-Mortem" - because that's what it was.


----------



## mhammer

I sincerely wish this thread could go back to what the subject heading implies: information updates. I far prefer a thread that simply provides useful and helpful information. The vast majority of folks here are decent people I would undoubtedly be happy to have as neighbours, no matter how much we might disagree about pandemic-related matters. I'd prefer to have neighbours rather than enemies.

If somebody has some good news on the topic of this virus and community response, that'd be great.


----------



## sulphur

How many people is this affecting? How many people have to die?


















Saskatoon ICU doctor says organ donation suspension is 'just the beginning' amid surging COVID-19 cases


A Saskatoon ICU physician says the suspension of organ donation in the province due to surging COVID-19 cases is “extremely painful and sad.”




saskatoon.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Guitar101

Brian Johnston said:


> Sept 6th update... all stats and data from VAERS


How do I start playing the video. Do I hover over the arrow and wait. I tried that but gave up when my coffee got cold. 😷


----------



## Brian Johnston

Trust the gov't... if you decline a covid test, you're counted as covid-positive


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1442487575717969921


----------



## Brian Johnston

Guitar101 said:


> How do I start playing the video. Do I hover over the arrow and wait. I tried that but gave up when my coffee got cold.


No idea... I can play it right off your post.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

Brian Johnston said:


> Trust the gov't... if you decline a covid test, you're counted as covid-positive


Incorrect. I would think quoting a tweet right would be easy... alas...

You should have written, "Trust the gov't... if you *ARE SICK AND* decline a covid test, you're counted as covid-positive" That's a big difference. And, whats the alternative may I ask? I imagine that this is for statistical purposes, perhaps for contact tracing and such.


----------



## sulphur

Brian Johnston said:


> Trust the gov't... if you decline a covid test, you're counted as covid-positive
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1442487575717969921


That would probably be in the catagory of better safe than sorry.

I'm curious, were you tested when you were sick to show that you had covid, or did you have an antibody test afterward?
Just because you were sick at some point doesn't mean that it was covid, if you were just assuming so.

I had the worst flu and fever of my life last year, just before shit hit the fan here, had an antibody test several months later and tested negative.


----------



## Brian Johnston

isoneedacoffee said:


> Incorrect. I would think quoting a tweet right would be easy... alas...
> 
> You should have written, "Trust the gov't... if you *ARE SICK AND* decline a covid test, you're counted as covid-positive" That's a big difference. And, whats the alternative may I ask? I imagine that this is for statistical purposes, perhaps for contact tracing and such.


Huh, so someone can be sick, not have covid, decline the test, but it's part of the gov't numbers. And you're OK with that. Very scientific.


----------



## Brian Johnston

sulphur said:


> That would probably be in the catagory of better safe than sorry.
> 
> I'm curious, were you tested when you were sick to show that you had covid, or did you have an antibody test afterward?
> Just because you were sick at some point doesn't mean that it was covid, if you were just assuming so.
> 
> I had the worst flu and fever of my life last year, just before shit hit the fan here, had an antibody test several months later and tested negative.


Refer to the person above you... he's OK with someone being sick, not even being tested and that counts as covid-positive. Argue with him about that, rather than asking me about my testing/antibodies. And then I'll relay my information. And... go...


----------



## sulphur

Brian Johnston said:


> Refer to the person above you... he's OK with someone being sick, not even being tested and that counts as covid-positive. Argue with him about that, rather than asking me about my testing/antibodies. And then I'll relay my information. And... go...


I'll take that as a "no" then so stfu.

That's basically what you are doing if you were never tested.


----------



## 2manyGuitars




----------



## isoneedacoffee

Brian Johnston said:


> Huh, so someone can be sick, not have covid, decline the test, but it's part of the gov't numbers. And you're OK with that. Very scientific.


1) There's a logic issue here: "so someone can be sick, not have covid, decline the test" How would one know the person doesn't have COVID without the test?

2) I never said I'm ok with that. I see the reasoning behind it, and that was explained, but it doesn't mean I'm ok with it.

3) I never said it was scientific.



Brian Johnston said:


> Refer to the person above you... he's OK with someone being sick, not even being tested and that counts as covid-positive. Argue with him about that, rather than asking me about my testing/antibodies. And then I'll relay my information. And... go...


Again, you're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say I was ok with it or not. What I am not ok with is you constantly distorting information and/or disseminating it.


----------



## mhammer

Since the very beginning of this pestilence, there have been legitimate concerns about *both* false positives _and_ false negatives. False positives burden people and organizations, certainly, but because this virus was so obviously contagious (the current delta variant even moreso), the emphasis was on eliminating false negatives as much as possible. Every possible case had to be identified, and contact tracing pursued, where feasible. Letting one slip through undetected could easily spread the virus further. Spartan Bioscience (who I was surprised to learn was actually only about 4 blocks from my home) _thought_ they had developed a cheap rapid PCR test device, and got it ready for market. Sadly, they got into financial trouble when Health Canada found that the proprietary swab didn't go far enough into one's nostrils to get a decent sample and had to go back to the design/drawing board. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/spartan-bioscience-creditor-protection-1.5976825 The problem wasn't really the swab, but the risk of false negatives.

The Alberta government has made some poor judgments on the pandemic-management front, but in this most recent declaration, I think they have done the right thing. Hinshaw admitted that their much earlier provincial modelling was based on the wrong data and woefully underestimated spread. The pendulum has now swung the other way. Hell, it was *pushed* in the other direction by all the influx of serious cases and ICU overflow. So now they're saying "Look, if you're sick with something that bears a passing resemblance (keep in mind that Covid shares symptoms with a lot of things), and we don't know for sure you're not infected with this virus, we can't take the risk that you aren't carrying it. If it inflates the provincial numbers a little bit and people get scared enough to take positive steps, that's not antithetical to the current needs of the province." I imagine there will be some things misattributed out of caution, but if a person comes in complaining of a serious pain in their lower back where their kidney is, and no other symptoms, and says they've had a kidney stone before, it's not going to get chalked up as an undetected case of Covid.

Public health officials have a professional responsibility to make sure that false negatives are kept to a blessed minimum. We rely on them for that every day. Not unless people are satisfied with "I dunno, it kinda sorta looks safe/flame-proof/not-moldy/road-ready/undiseased to me. I give it a thumbs up. Sign here and you're good to go."


----------



## silvertonebetty

We now have a Vaccine passport I don’t know what to think of it as I cannot get the vaccine due to almost dying from gbs as a kid . At least I can still go to work so it could be worse


----------



## allthumbs56

Brian Johnston said:


> Huh, so someone can be sick, not have covid, decline the test, but it's part of the gov't numbers. And you're OK with that. Very scientific.


Much like refusing a DUI test, no?


----------



## JBFairthorne

If you have a legitimate, documented medical exemption you should have no trouble getting exemption paperwork from your Dr.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

allthumbs56 said:


> Much like refusing a DUI test, no?


That was the analogy I was thinking of but I don’t bother replying. I’d have better luck arguing with my toaster.

BTW, I love the statement “Huh, so someone can be sick, not have covid, decline the test, but it's part of the gov't numbers.”

If you don’t get tested, how would you know you don’t have COVID? The situation is that they want to test people that have COVID symptoms. Just like they generally want to breathalyze people who show signs of being impaired.

Like @mhammer laid out so well, if you are showing signs of COVID, they want to see if you have it. That seems pretty reasonable. If you refuse the test, (And BTW, why the HELL would someone with COVID symptoms refuse to be tested?!? Wouldn’t you _want_ to know?) it’s not unreasonable for them to chalk it up as COVID out of an abundance of caution. After all, you are rolling into a hospital in the middle of a pandemic showing signs of the actual disease.


----------



## tomee2

info update









Retracted Canadian study that overestimated myocarditis after mRNA vaccine spreading among anti-vaxxers


A recent study by the Ottawa Heart Institute on myocarditis has been retracted, but not before it spread like wildfire throughout the anti-vaccine community.




 ottawa.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Brian Johnston

There are two other parts on YouTube (can't believe they're still up):


----------



## Brian Johnston

Always12AM said:


> I won’t even drive through Sudbury without a condom on.. you should seriously consider getting the shot if you live there.


In 1.75 years, 31 died WITH covid in the Sudbury area, all eldery, obese or with other complications. Apparently 80% are vaccinated, which I find hard to believe, but maybe true. I'm so scared, so I will take something that will not prevent me from getting it, will not prevent me from spreading it, and will wear off within 6 months, and doesn't seem to have much effect against the Delta variant (which came about the same time they started giving the vaccine). Heck, even some nurses came forward to indicate they think the Delta variant are cases caused by the vaccine (including spreaders among the vaxxed). There is a reason why NY is about to issue a state of emergency because so many health-care workers REFUSE the vaccine and are not working. They are seeing first hand what is happening. So, double up on your condoms.


----------



## SWLABR

2manyGuitars said:


>


I love this video! I’ve been sending it out to just about everyone since I first saw it a couple years ago. I had meant to post it in this particular thread, but the humour would be lost (on the insane) or ripped apart as historically inaccurate or some nonsense.


----------



## Always12AM

Brian Johnston said:


> In 1.75 years, 31 died WITH covid in the Sudbury area, all eldery, obese or with other complications. Apparently 80% are vaccinated, which I find hard to believe, but maybe true. I'm so scared, so I will take something that will not prevent me from getting it, will not prevent me from spreading it, and will wear off within 6 months, and doesn't seem to have much effect against the Delta variant (which came about the same time they started giving the vaccine). Heck, even some nurses came forward to indicate they think the Delta variant are cases caused by the vaccine (including spreaders among the vaxxed). There is a reason why NY is about to issue a state of emergency because so many health-care workers REFUSE the vaccine and are not working. They are seeing first hand what is happening. So, double up on your condoms.


Do you think that nurses are pathologists? Lol.
Or Canadian Tire employees engineers?

I’m sitting with a nurse right now and her opinion on Covid 19 doesn’t impact my decision to get the vaccine.. Just like a Canadian tire employees opinion doesn’t factor into wether or not I wear a seat belt.

I have no altruistic reason for getting the vaccine.. I just want to go to the gym and fast track my career by jumping over all of the people who had seniority over me but are refusing the vaccine.

If you don’t want the vaccine and you want to ride it out until they restrict you from the beer store or timmies.. than go for it.. stick it to the man. Just don’t expect people to support your opinion. Because if you are wrong, you are the antagonist in this narrative.

Just to be clear, I am not saying you are wrong for feeling the way you do, I just don’t think that either of us are going to become pathologists or that talking about pathology is going to change the fact that one day, the government is going to sanction you into getting it. And when you do, I’m gonna share a popsicle with you and we are going to FUCKING love it!


----------



## Brian Johnston

Always12AM said:


> Do you think that nurses are pathologists? Lol.
> Or Canadian Tire employees engineers?
> 
> I’m sitting with a nurse right now and her opinion on Covid 19 doesn’t impact my decision to get the vaccine.. Just like a Canadian tire employees opinion doesn’t factor into wether or not I wear a seat belt.
> 
> I have no altruistic reason for getting the vaccine.. I just want to go to the gym and fast track my career by jumping over all of the people who had seniority over me but are refusing the vaccine.
> 
> If you don’t want the vaccine and you want to ride it out until they restrict you from the beer store or timmies.. than go for it.. stick it to the man. Just don’t expect people to support your opinion. Because if you are wrong, you are the antagonist in this narrative.
> 
> Just to be clear, I am not saying you are wrong for feeling the way you do, I just don’t think that either of us are going to become pathologists or that talking about pathology is going to change the fact that one day, the government is going to sanction you into getting it. And when you do, I’m gonna share a popsicle with you and we are going to FUCKING love it!


Interesting, because there are pathologists, virologists and even funeral directors who have come forward with stats and information that would prevent you from wanting it... they've been banned off YouTube, for the most part, but can be found on just about any other platform. Even the people from Johnson & Johnson want nothing to do with it. Talk about frontline workers!!!!!!!! I don't do Timmies, nor the Beer Store. I can order food from different sites, if necessary, including greens (the stuff you mix with water), supplements, etc. I'll be fine. I've lived in the bush and know how to survive without people supporting me. I also have my own home gym, with about $75k of equipment. No need to wear a face diaper or have a passport to workout.


----------



## Always12AM

Brian Johnston said:


> Interesting, because there are pathologists, virologists and even funeral directors who have come forward with stats and information that would prevent you from wanting it... they've been banned off YouTube, for the most part, but can be found on just about any other platform. Even the people from Johnson & Johnson want nothing to do with it. Talk about frontline workers!!!!!!!! I don't do Timmies, nor the Beer Store. I can order food from different sites, if necessary, including greens (the stuff you mix with water), supplements, etc. I'll be fine. I've lived in the bush and know how to survive without people supporting me. I also have my own home gym, with about $75k of equipment. No need to wear a face diaper or have a passport to workout.


I go to planet thickness and only work out my right arm for group photos.

I do know how to live in the actual bush without hydroelectricity. But I don’t want to, because I like electric guitars. But if I ever win the lottery or as soon as humanly possible, I intend on living somewhere where I can watch my dog run away for a week straight without seeing another person.

Just don’t expect everyone to have the lifestyle that you have. It’s easier for most people to simply get the vaccine and move on.


----------



## Brian Johnston

Always12AM said:


> It’s easier for most people to simply get the vaccine and move on.


Easier doesn't mean better. When you have officials from the vax companies being secretly recorded, and who claim "we have no idea of long-term implications), and with VAERS only reporting 1-10% of all deaths and injuries caused by it... it's the lack of transparency, rush to get this out, then finding out it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, etc., then the red flags should go up. I'm sure most on this forum (or anywhere) who got the first shot had no idea that the companies would then be suggesting 'boosters for life." They thought they would get it and things would go back to normal... then it became two shots... then it became "only lasts six months... you need regular boosters." It's getting nothing short of retarded. It's like some countries having complete lockdowns based on ONE CASE, and the person survived. That never happened with the flu in the previous years, which took out 150k people every year. Life simply continued for the rest of the 7.5 billion.


----------



## Brian Johnston

This is how they instill fear... get the numbers up and put 'covid' on the death certificates, even when they die from something else (and get federal funding at the same time)


----------



## zztomato

Brian Johnston said:


> I also have my own home gym, with about $75k of equipment.


You're going to need it to work off all the feed in this thread. 😁


----------



## tdotrob

I just got back from the ICU, said goodbye to my father in law before he passed away at 3:53 am, not from covid. He was vaccinated, we all are and they let us up to see him. Top notch care he recieved, professional, caring, the nurses cried.

The ICU was packed full, people alone on their stomachs with tubes sticking everywhere. No one in the room crying with them and for them like my wife got to with her father.

He was in need of a transfer to U of A but there wasn’t any beds available for that to happen, not in the time it would’ve needed to anyway. Not saying that’s why he died or he would’ve lived if it could’ve happened, who knows.

To all those families with dead and dying members and nurses and doctors working their ass off and living a groundhogs day covid hell I would say it’s all very real to them. There was no faking or fudging what is happening in our hospitals here, to a majority of unvaccinated people no less.

Its fucking sad having to read and hear from these anti vaxx losers all the fucking Time with their bullshit and nonsense while people really die and families are crushed. I’m ready to start throat punching these fuckwads into oblivion.


----------



## zztomato

@tdotrob 
Really sorry for your loss and the trauma around your FIL's passing. It's a heartbreaking picture you've relayed.


----------



## sulphur

Brian Johnston said:


> In 1.75 years, 31 died WITH covid in the Sudbury area, all eldery, obese or with other complications.


Where are you getting that information from?


----------



## Choo5440

Ugh. My deepest condolences, tdotrob. Praying for your family.


----------



## Wardo

Further to what tdorob said above. A couple of weeks a ago some news reporter was allowed into a Toronto ICU. She did an article referring to the fact that many of the patients were young and some of them were on a blood recirculation device because their lungs had stopped working. The article included pictures. I heard her talking about all this on a radio station as I was driving home; she said that she was deluged with comments stating essentially that the whole thing was fake and the photographs of the patients were actually mannequins.


----------



## Brian Johnston

sulphur said:


> Where are you getting that information from?


Sudbury District Health Unit, as of Sept 27th. Why? Where are YOU getting your information?


----------



## Brian Johnston

Condolences. Also, condolences to all those families who had people pass or acquire severe and life-altering complications from the vax (it's all there on VAERS). There are a lot of gov't officials I like to punch in the throat, as well. We have to look at this from the bigger picture, rather than the population being divided in two over this issue.


----------



## allthumbs56

tdotrob said:


> I just got back from the ICU, said goodbye to my father in law before he passed away at 3:53 am, not from covid. He was vaccinated, we all are and they let us up to see him. Top notch care he recieved, professional, caring, the nurses cried.
> 
> The ICU was packed full, people alone on their stomachs with tubes sticking everywhere. No one in the room crying with them and for them like my wife got to with her father.
> 
> He was in need of a transfer to U of A but there wasn’t any beds available for that to happen, not in the time it would’ve needed to anyway. Not saying that’s why he died or he would’ve lived if it could’ve happened, who knows.
> 
> To all those families with dead and dying members and nurses and doctors working their ass off and living a groundhogs day covid hell I would say it’s all very real to them. There was no faking or fudging what is happening in our hospitals here, to a majority of unvaccinated people no less.
> 
> Its fucking sad having to read and hear from these anti vaxx losers all the fucking Time with their bullshit and nonsense while people really die and families are crushed. I’m ready to start throat punching these fuckwads into oblivion.


That's aweful - so sorry to hear.

I am burying my brother this Friday. He died after fighting cancer for almost 10 years. He spent his last 2 days in a hospital hallway except for the 45 minutes at the end where they managed to put him in a room.

Here, in Niagara there are currently 10 patients in the hospital with Covid. Every single one is unvaccinated. My brother was going to pass regardless but am I a little angry that it could and should have happened in a room where his family could be with him with a bit of privacy? Oh yeah.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

tdotrob said:


> I just got back from the ICU, said goodbye to my father in law before he passed


Heartfelt condolences to you and your family.

I was reading a news story interviewing a Dr in Alberta. He was talking about how dire the situation is in the hospitals. The only reason they are not worse he said was because people are dying fast enough from covid to open up beds for new covid patients.

Vax, don't vax, either way, deal with the consequences of your own decision. Be responsible.


----------



## mhammer

Condolences to your spouse and extended family, tdotrob. 

We too often have the mistaken impression that health care is a bottomless well of support. In normal times, when we go to visit a friend or relative in hospital, we pass by empty rooms, looking for the one they're in. We see plenty of empty chairs in the Emergency waiting area, and the walk-in clinic. Will the current protracted shortfall in health care encourage people to be safer, whether with respect to contagious disease, bad habits that produce chronic health problems, or simply activities that risk physical injury? I guess time will tell. As some have said: never let a crisis go to waste.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> That's aweful - so sorry to hear.
> 
> I am burying my brother this Friday. He died after fighting cancer for almost 10 years. He spent his last 2 days in a hospital hallway except for the 45 minutes at the end where they managed to put him in a room.
> 
> Here, in Niagara there are currently 10 patients in the hospital with Covid. Every single one is unvaccinated. My brother was going to pass regardless but am I a little angry that it could and should have happened in a room where his family could be with him with a bit of privacy? Oh yeah.



Damn.

I'm sorry for your loss.


----------



## Milkman

tdotrob said:


> I just got back from the ICU, said goodbye to my father in law before he passed away at 3:53 am, not from covid. He was vaccinated, we all are and they let us up to see him. Top notch care he recieved, professional, caring, the nurses cried.
> 
> The ICU was packed full, people alone on their stomachs with tubes sticking everywhere. No one in the room crying with them and for them like my wife got to with her father.
> 
> He was in need of a transfer to U of A but there wasn’t any beds available for that to happen, not in the time it would’ve needed to anyway. Not saying that’s why he died or he would’ve lived if it could’ve happened, who knows.
> 
> To all those families with dead and dying members and nurses and doctors working their ass off and living a groundhogs day covid hell I would say it’s all very real to them. There was no faking or fudging what is happening in our hospitals here, to a majority of unvaccinated people no less.
> 
> Its fucking sad having to read and hear from these anti vaxx losers all the fucking Time with their bullshit and nonsense while people really die and families are crushed. I’m ready to start throat punching these fuckwads into oblivion.


My condolences.


----------



## allthumbs56

Brian Johnston said:


> This is how they instill fear... get the numbers up and put 'covid' on the death certificates, even when they die from something else (and get federal funding at the same time)


"Breaking News" - from April 2020.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> "Breaking News" - from April 2020.



Sorry about that.


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> Damn.
> 
> I'm sorry for your loss.


Thanks Mike. It's not been an easy month but sometimes you just put your head down and do what you gotta do.


----------



## Brian Johnston

allthumbs56 said:


> "Breaking News" - from April 2020.


I posted that because the BS started that long ago... didn't think I had to explain it, but there you have it. Maybe do a search and you will find an interview with a funeral home director (about 4 weeks old) and nothing has changed. There, that help you?


----------



## Brian Johnston

allthumbs56 said:


> That's aweful - so sorry to hear.
> 
> I am burying my brother this Friday. He died after fighting cancer for almost 10 years. He spent his last 2 days in a hospital hallway except for the 45 minutes at the end where they managed to put him in a room.
> 
> Here, in Niagara there are currently 10 patients in the hospital with Covid. Every single one is unvaccinated. My brother was going to pass regardless but am I a little angry that it could and should have happened in a room where his family could be with him with a bit of privacy? Oh yeah.


How do you know they were unvaccinated... medical staff disclosing private medical information of patients? Actually, there was a nurse from BC a few weeks back who went on record (she was part of a walk-out) stating that a majority of covid issues are among the vaxxed. So there... conflicting stories from two sources... the nurse who went on record and someone disclosing private information to you about specific patients. I lost my mother in May 2020 from cancer, but more so, neglect (all the focus went on 'covid' in the area, although only TWO people had it). It is what it is.


----------



## allthumbs56

Brian Johnston said:


> How do you know they were unvaccinated...


Because they publish that information.


----------



## zztomato

Brian Johnston said:


> How do you know they were unvaccinated... medical staff disclosing private medical information of patients? Actually, there was a nurse from BC a few weeks back who went on record (she was part of a walk-out) stating that a majority of covid issues are among the vaxxed. So there... conflicting stories from two sources... the nurse who went on record and someone disclosing private information to you about specific patients. I lost my mother in May 2020 from cancer, but more so, neglect (all the focus went on 'covid' in the area, although only TWO people had it). It is what it is.


Completely heartless response. No surprise though.


----------



## sulphur

Brian Johnston said:


> Sudbury District Health Unit, as of Sept 27th. Why? Where are YOU getting your information?


I'm not in here constantly spewing bullshit.

So they're disclosing peoples health histories, ages maybe, but if they were obese or had co-morbidities?
I highly doubt that. Provide a link to that info.


----------



## Brian Johnston

sulphur said:


> I'm not in here constantly spewing bullshit.


Great comeback, after giving you an up-to-date gov't source. No, you're only on here mocking others and claiming what they say is bullshit. No wonder your user name is sulphur... your attitude STINKS.


----------



## Brian Johnston

zztomato said:


> Completely heartless response. No surprise though.


I asked a simple question... I never brought up his brother. How is that heartless? Soy boy.


----------



## Brian Johnston

allthumbs56 said:


> Because they publish that information.


Really... they are still alive and publish that information. I'm very curious to have a link to that information, if you have it. There must be a Canadian version of CDC. Do share and thank you.


----------



## Brian Johnston

zztomato said:


> Completely heartless response. No surprise though.


By the way, I didn't get any condolences for the loss of my mother... are you heartless?


----------



## sulphur

Brian Johnston said:


> Great comeback, after giving you an up-to-date gov't source. No, you're only on here mocking others and claiming what they say is bullshit. No wonder your user name is sulphur... your attitude STINKS.


Providing links to dispell your foolish sources is mocking?

You, the one that throws around the name calling on a regular basis? Do you have room to talk?

Provide links to that information then, I'll wait.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/coronavirus-canada-world-canada-sept28-2021-1.6191788

A couple of interesting personal stories in the video.


----------



## allthumbs56

Brian Johnston said:


> Really... they are still alive and publish that information. I'm very curious to have a link to that information, if you have it. There must be a Canadian version of CDC. Do share and thank you.


Man you gotta start looking out in the real world. Niagara doesn't publish until noon but perhaps you'll have some fun with these pie charts and tables from Ontario that disclose all that information - while the people are still alive!






Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue







covid-19.ontario.ca


----------



## Jim DaddyO

‘We weren’t thinking about other people’: unvaccinated Alberta man on his time in ICU with COVID-19 | Globalnews.ca


An Alberta man who spent 11 days in the ICU with COVID-19 is sharing his story while praising health-care workers and pleading with the unvaccinated.




globalnews.ca





_Cook wasn’t vaccinated when he caught COVID-19. He said he isn’t against vaccinations, he just thought he didn’t need this one, saying he is a healthy guy and felt he could fight the virus if he caught it._


----------



## Brian Johnston

allthumbs56 said:


> Man you gotta start looking out in the real world. Niagara doesn't publish until noon but perhaps you'll have some fun with these pie charts and tables from Ontario that disclose all that information - while the people are still alive!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid-19.ontario.ca


Actually, I already posted a 2 hour video on stats dealing with the vax. In regard to Niagara, if they don't publish until noon, where did you get the information that those 9 people were all unvaccinated. Time traveled? That's what I'm asking... you got that information, according to you, because they publish it. Where is that website where live people, in the hospital, are being publicly mentioned, together with their private information that they are unvaccinated?


----------



## Brian Johnston

Jim DaddyO said:


> ‘We weren’t thinking about other people’: unvaccinated Alberta man on his time in ICU with COVID-19 | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> An Alberta man who spent 11 days in the ICU with COVID-19 is sharing his story while praising health-care workers and pleading with the unvaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Cook wasn’t vaccinated when he caught COVID-19. He said he isn’t against vaccinations, he just thought he didn’t need this one, saying he is a healthy guy and felt he could fight the virus if he caught it._


You'll need to list all the stories about people who did take it and...
At least he's still alive to talk about it, right? Now, how does one PROVE that taking the vax would lessen the effects? There are so many who caught it and are ASYMPTOMATIC, and there are those who got very sick and died from it (similar to the vax, right?). And so, if someone got sick without the vax, how would he know he would be less worse off with it? If someone got sick with the vax (lots of those, right?), then how does that person know he wouldn't have been the SAME without it? Where is that information? www.TimeTravel.com?


----------



## Brian Johnston

sulphur said:


> Providing links to dispell your foolish sources is mocking?
> 
> You, the one that throws around the name calling on a regular basis? Do you have room to talk?
> 
> Provide links to that information then, I'll wait.


Oh, what link is that? How about all my links? No comment on those, or are you one of the members who can't be bothered watching it, but will make a comment anyway? I already posted about 4-5 video links with no comment from you. I won't wait, because... blank out!


----------



## allthumbs56

Brian Johnston said:


> Actually, I already posted a 2 hour video on stats dealing with the vax. In regard to Niagara, if they don't publish until noon, where did you get the information that those 9 people were all unvaccinated. Time traveled? That's what I'm asking... you got that information, according to you, because they publish it. Where is that website where live people, in the hospital, are being publicly mentioned, together with their private information that they are unvaccinated?


Good lord chum - you don't even look at the data but live your life on Youtube videos?

I should have known what to expect. I couldn't even prove to your satisfaction that the earth is round. What was I thinking?


----------



## tonewoody

So, aside from the "No, you are a poopyhead...No..." drama....

Here is a question for anyone but Brian Johnson.

Your opinion, How bad could this get / timeline projection? Ballpark scenarios, thoughts, speculation. Purely from a Covid19 POV.

I ask this simply because IMO, sending kids back to school seems like a bad idea. We all know how the Petri dish comes back home for dinner, kids may not make wise decisions etc.
That is only one factor, what else etc.

Post Edit: Apologies to Brian for spelling his last name incorrectly. A simple oversight on my part, nothing more.


----------



## Brian Johnston

tonewoody said:


> So, aside from the "No, you are a poopyhead...No..." drama. Just stop it.
> 
> Here is a question for anyone but Brian Johnson.
> 
> Your opinion, How bad could this get with timeline projection?
> 
> I ask this simply because IMO, sending kids back to school seems like a bad idea. We all know how the Petri dish comes back home for dinner, may not make wise decisions etc.


Since I'm Brian Johnston, not the singer from AC/DC, Brian Johnson, the control and loss of freedom will get a LOT worse unless people stand up and stop being sheep. You need to look at that aspect, and not just the flu that's going around that's affecting .05% of the population. Forgot what the media is saying and look at the actual numbers, including those who have died so far in a population of 8 billion... and those who died so far compared to those who die with cancer, heart disease, accidents, drug overdoses and suicide. No mention of those on the paid-off news channels.


----------



## Brian Johnston

allthumbs56 said:


> Good lord chum - you don't even look at the data but live your life on Youtube videos?
> 
> I should have known what to expect. I couldn't even prove to your satisfaction that the earth is round. What was I thinking?


Actually, I work in the health care industry, in rehab. I'm a contributor to the Merck Manual (my name is in the hard and digital versions). I know MANY doctors, nurses, etc. I provided links to videos to educate people, just like YOU provided a link to a website, right? Hypocrite, lol. I'm still waiting on that link that publishes information on living people currently in the hospital, since YOU claim you know all 9 are unvaccinated.


----------



## Brian Johnston

allthumbs56 said:


> Man you gotta start looking out in the real world. Niagara doesn't publish until noon but perhaps you'll have some fun with these pie charts and tables from Ontario that disclose all that information - while the people are still alive!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid-19.ontario.ca


You did see that undercover reporting of a hospital that never did report on the deaths and injuries caused by the vax, did you? The one with one of the head doctors saying that the vaccine is "full of shit!" I guess that doesn't count... it's on YouTube.


----------



## tonewoody

Sigh


----------



## LouisFNCyphre

tonewoody said:


> So, aside from the "No, you are a poopyhead...No..." drama....
> 
> Here is a question for anyone but Brian Johnson.
> 
> Your opinion, How bad could this get / timeline projection? Ballpark scenarios, thoughts, speculation. Purely from a Covid19 POV.
> 
> I ask this simply because IMO, sending kids back to school seems like a bad idea. We all know how the Petri dish comes back home for dinner, kids may not make wise decisions etc.
> That is only one factor, what else etc.


Generally speaking new pathogens get less deadly and disruptive to their host over time as this allows for greater spread. This winter might be bad but on a longer timeline I would anticipate COVID becoming just another endemic disease like the cold or flu.


----------



## Paul Running

Hopefully covid19 ends like the chicken pox; of all the diseases that I ever had, chicken pox was the worst.


----------



## tonewoody

Overachiever Reference data


----------



## allthumbs56

Brian Johnston said:


> Actually, I work in the health care industry, in rehab. I'm a contributor to the Merck Manual (my name is in the hard and digital versions). I know MANY doctors, nurses, etc. I provided links to videos to educate people, just like YOU provided a link to a website, right? Hypocrite, lol. I'm still waiting on that link that publishes information on living people currently in the hospital, since YOU claim you know all 9 are unvaccinated.


Fresh off the presses ......









One new COVID death, 23 new cases and 11 in hospital in Niagara


Niagara is reporting one new COVID-19 death today and 23 new infections.




www.iheartradio.ca





_"Niagara is reporting one new COVID-19 death today and 23 new infections.
The death toll reported by public health now sits at 430.
11 people are being treated in hospital in the region for the virus, including two in the ICU.
*10 of the patients are unvaccinated*. The one vaccinated patient is over the age of 65.
There are 242 active cases, and nine outbreaks being tracked by officials.
70% of Niagara residents have received two doses of a COVID vaccine, while 75% have received one dose."_

Anything else? I'm guessing you didn't bother to check the Ontario data that I linked to earlier.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

allthumbs56 said:


> Good lord chum - you don't even look at the data but live your life on Youtube videos?
> 
> I should have known what to expect. I couldn't even prove to your satisfaction that the earth is round. What was I thinking?





tonewoody said:


> Sigh


I posted a link a while back to a reddit group, the “Herman Cain Award”. For those who don’t know who Herman Cain was, he was an American businessman, political activist, twice sought the Presidential nomination, and ran for Senate.

In 2020, he was lending vocal support for a certain political leader and among other things, opposed mask mandates and other public health measures designed to combat COVID. Even though he was 74 and had underlying health issues, he attended a large political rally in June, 2020 and was shown mingling with large crowds while maskless. Nine days later he was diagnosed with COVID. One month later, he was dead.

What elevates him to special status, so much so that an award was named after him, is that AFTER his death, he somehow posted COVID denials and hoax conspiracy theories on his Twitter feed (which were quickly removed by whatever staffer had inadvertently posted them).

Anyhow, the HCA reddit group posts nominees and recipients of the award. It usually consists of a slideshow of their Facebook posts showing everything from the most head-scratching conspiracy theories, to vile and racist memes, documenting their COVID diagnosis and medical journey, and usually ends with their family member posting about their “unfortunate passing”.

There is the odd one who expresses regret and urges people to do what they wished they had done, but most double down, continuing to spew denial to the end with their relatives continuing to post garbage after they died. Some stories document the progression as COVID takes out entire families, taking out the son after he has already passed it to dad, who’s now in the ICU, then the wife stops posting updates because she winds up hospitalized.

My point?
There is no amount of evidence, stats, proof, pleading, encouragement, or anything that will get through to many of these people. You could lay them in the hospital bed next to their dying spouse while an ECMO pumps blood through a garden hose jammed in their neck, and it’ll still be part of some deeper hoax.


----------



## SWLABR

allthumbs56 said:


> Man you gotta start looking out in the real world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid-19.ontario.ca


Clearly never gonna happen



allthumbs56 said:


> Good lord chum - you don't even look at the data but live your life on Youtube videos?
> 
> I should have known what to expect. I couldn't even prove to your satisfaction that the earth is round. What was I thinking?


...and like 2hr long You-Tube vids, so who has the time to watch, then rebut? Uh, no one



tonewoody said:


> Here is a question for anyone but Brian Johnson.


And yet he's the very first one to answer... and not just to correct you about the name thing, no... he answered your question, the one that you specifically did not want his opinion on.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Brian Johnston said:


> You'll need to list all the stories about people who did take it and...
> At least he's still alive to talk about it, right? Now, how does one PROVE that taking the vax would lessen the effects? There are so many who caught it and are ASYMPTOMATIC, and there are those who got very sick and died from it (similar to the vax, right?). And so, if someone got sick without the vax, how would he know he would be less worse off with it? If someone got sick with the vax (lots of those, right?), then how does that person know he wouldn't have been the SAME without it? Where is that information? www.TimeTravel.com?



About 0.029% total adverse effects of all doses administered at a quick glace. 0.008% have serious side effects.

COVID-19 vaccine safety: Weekly report on side effects following immunization - Canada.ca


----------



## Brian Johnston

allthumbs56 said:


> Fresh off the presses ......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One new COVID death, 23 new cases and 11 in hospital in Niagara
> 
> 
> Niagara is reporting one new COVID-19 death today and 23 new infections.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.iheartradio.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"Niagara is reporting one new COVID-19 death today and 23 new infections.
> The death toll reported by public health now sits at 430.
> 11 people are being treated in hospital in the region for the virus, including two in the ICU.
> *10 of the patients are unvaccinated*. The one vaccinated patient is over the age of 65.
> There are 242 active cases, and nine outbreaks being tracked by officials.
> 70% of Niagara residents have received two doses of a COVID vaccine, while 75% have received one dose."_
> 
> Anything else? I'm guessing you didn't bother to check the Ontario data that I linked to earlier.


Yes, is that in the one hospital you were in... you only have one hospital in the area? Or are those 11 people spread out over a number of hospitals? I cannot do a search on any particular hospital, only a region. From my understanding, the Niagara region has 8 hospitals, which means the hospital you were in has 9, another has 1 and the other 6 hospitals have none. Is that correct?


----------



## Brian Johnston

Jim DaddyO said:


> About 0.029% total adverse effects of all doses administered at a quick glace. 0.008% have serious side effects.
> 
> COVID-19 vaccine safety: Weekly report on side effects following immunization - Canada.ca


Only 1-10% reported.


----------



## keto

SWLABR said:


> Clearly never gonna happen
> 
> 
> 
> ...and like 2hr long You-Tube vids, so who has the time to watch, then rebut? Uh, no one
> 
> 
> And yet he's the very first one to answer... and not just to correct you about the name thing, no... he answered your question, the one that you specifically did not want his opinion on.



Gotta spread that Russian science fiction fear porn. It's the fearful who are spreading it. Not wanting to get sick is not the same as 'being scared', as I have pointed out to a couple of bullies in person, without kickback. The CT crowd are just wanting everyone else to be as worked up as they are. They always exist, have no apparent critical thinking skills, ignore that every meme, video, and post is debunked clearly with numbers and other evidence, but want us to believe anecdotal one off or insignificant % events will be the doom of us all. Yeah, people get hurt, yes it's a shame, no, it's not a secret.


----------



## Brian Johnston

SWLABR said:


> Clearly never gonna happen
> 
> ...and like 2hr long You-Tube vids, so who has the time to watch, then rebut? Uh, no one
> 
> And yet he's the very first one to answer... and not just to correct you about the name thing, no... he answered your question, the one that you specifically did not want his opinion on.


Too bad, isn't it? If a person does not have the time to spell another person's name correctly, is that lazy, stupid or purposely being insulting? In any case, I wanted to correct him, as it may have been a simple error, since it is my name and none of your concern, right? I did not answer his question, if you bothered to read. I addressed a DIFFERENT point, which he can consider or not. No one is forcing anyone to do anything (including forcing a vaccine on people or asking "why the hell not" just because you or someone else did). So far, a free country and freedom of speech, which really annoys some with an opinion and who does not want to hear the other side. This is not a discussion, but mocking once a contrary opinion surfaces, including if that opinion comes from a health care professional or someone who can deliver the data in a video you are too lazy to watch. I sat through the 2 hours and learned a lot, but just like being in school and sitting there for hours every day, if you don't bother listening, then it won't mean much. No one is rebutting because they CANNOT. Grasp that. And if they don't have time to investigate a 2 hour video, no wonder so many who got the vax never investigated prior to getting it. Too lazy and waiting on the gov't and the news to instill fear, in order to make their minds up for them. The blind sheep mentality. Now, if someone investigated and based on their evidence decide to get the vax, then that is perfectly fine. They did their homework, drew conclusions and went for it. Did they draw those conclusions on ALL the evidence and facts. You decide. But there are others out there refusing it, which seems beyond the comprehension of so many on this and other forums, but they did the SAME... they investigated and based on what information they have (including that horrid 2 hour video you're too lazy to watch), decided against it. But they are the ones who are wrong, right?


----------



## SWLABR

Brian Johnston said:


> Too bad, isn't it? If a person does not have the time to spell another person's name correctly, is that lazy, stupid or purposely being insulting? In any case, I wanted to correct him, as it may have been a simple error, since it is my name and none of your concern, right? I did not answer his question, if you bothered to read. I addressed a DIFFERENT point, which he can consider or not. No one is forcing anyone to do anything (including forcing a vaccine on people or asking "why the hell not" just because you or someone else did). So far, a free country and freedom of speech, which really annoys some with an opinion and who does not want to hear the other side. This is not a discussion, but mocking once a contrary opinion surfaces, including if that opinion comes from a health care professional or someone who can deliver the data in a video you are too lazy to watch. I sat through the 2 hours and learned a lot, but just like being in school and sitting there for hours every day, if you don't bother listening, then it won't mean much. No one is rebutting because they CANNOT. Grasp that. And if they don't have time to investigate a 2 hour video, no wonder so many who got the vax never investigated prior to getting it. Too lazy and waiting on the gov't and the news to instill fear, in order to make their minds up for them. The blind sheep mentality. Now, if someone investigated and based on their evidence decide to get the vax, then that is perfectly fine. They did their homework, drew conclusions and went for it. Did they draw those conclusions on ALL the evidence and facts. You decide. But there are others out there refusing it, which seems beyond the comprehension of so many on this and other forums, but they did the SAME... they investigated and based on what information they have (including that horrid 2 hour video you're too lazy to watch), decided against it. But they are the ones who are wrong, right?


I wasn’t trying to coax a reply out of you, but here we are… you have every right to correct someone if they misspelled, or mispronounced your name. That wasn’t my point. Good on ya for ranting off anyway.


----------



## keto

Brian Johnston said:


> Too bad, isn't it? If a person does not have the time to spell another person's name correctly, is that lazy, stupid or purposely being insulting? In any case, I wanted to correct him, as it may have been a simple error, since it is my name and none of your concern, right? I did not answer his question, if you bothered to read. I addressed a DIFFERENT point, which he can consider or not. No one is forcing anyone to do anything (including forcing a vaccine on people or asking "why the hell not" just because you or someone else did). So far, a free country and freedom of speech, which really annoys some with an opinion and who does not want to hear the other side. This is not a discussion, but mocking once a contrary opinion surfaces, including if that opinion comes from a health care professional or someone who can deliver the data in a video you are too lazy to watch. I sat through the 2 hours and learned a lot, but just like being in school and sitting there for hours every day, if you don't bother listening, then it won't mean much. No one is rebutting because they CANNOT. Grasp that. And if they don't have time to investigate a 2 hour video, no wonder so many who got the vax never investigated prior to getting it. Too lazy and waiting on the gov't and the news to instill fear, in order to make their minds up for them. The blind sheep mentality. Now, if someone investigated and based on their evidence decide to get the vax, then that is perfectly fine. They did their homework, drew conclusions and went for it. Did they draw those conclusions on ALL the evidence and facts. You decide. But there are others out there refusing it, which seems beyond the comprehension of so many on this and other forums, but they did the SAME... they investigated and based on what information they have (including that horrid 2 hour video you're too lazy to watch), decided against it. But they are the ones who are wrong, right?


Your fulla shit, that video got lots of traction early and has been discussed and debunked at length on numerous sites. I won't bother to link unless you ask nicely, but they're not hard to find.


----------



## Brian Johnston

keto said:


> Gotta spread that Russian science fiction fear porn. It's the fearful who are spreading it. Not wanting to get sick is not the same as 'being scared', as I have pointed out to a couple of bullies in person, without kickback. The CT crowd are just wanting everyone else to be as worked up as they are. They always exist, have no apparent critical thinking skills, ignore that every meme, video, and post is debunked clearly with numbers and other evidence, but want us to believe anecdotal one off or insignificant % events will be the doom of us all. Yeah, people get hurt, yes it's a shame, no, it's not a secret.


Which science fiction fear porn you talking about... CBC... working so hard to work people up? Didn't you know, you can still get sick and spread even with the vax, which is only good for six months... then more experimental chemicals. Sounds perfect. Critical thinking only takes place if you use it, and it gets better with use. When the only rebuttal is "too long to watch," then that tells me the person has ZERO interest and, likely, few critical thinking skills. Not sure what the anecdotal one-offs are, since there are many case on both sides... many have died from being vaxxed and not vaxxed. Far more from cancer and heart disease... even accidents. But I get that point... saying that someone died of covid means as much as someone who has not died of covid (like the flu). Someone dying WITH covid is very different than someone who died as a result of covid (particularly if the symptoms are minor or the person asymptomatic). A client of mine's best friend's father died at home (I forget what it was)... the coroner came to the home, pronounced the person dead and indicated to the daughter that the report would indicate Covid, in order to increase funding for the district... a good thing, according to the coroner. The daughter said she would report him if he did, and so, he did not. Not, that is a one-off, but is not uncommon... so many in the initial months were filed away as a covid death, which was false... it increases gov't funding... plenty of reports and first-hand witnesses to that (including nurses have have come forward).


----------



## colchar

tonewoody said:


> So, aside from the "No, you are a poopyhead...No..." drama....
> 
> Here is a question for anyone but Brian Johnson.
> 
> Your opinion, How bad could this get / timeline projection? Ballpark scenarios, thoughts, speculation. Purely from a Covid19 POV.
> 
> I ask this simply because IMO, sending kids back to school seems like a bad idea. We all know how the Petri dish comes back home for dinner, kids may not make wise decisions etc.
> That is only one factor, what else etc.



Apparently transmission in schools is really low and kids who are becoming infected are being infected at home. This was in the news here in the GTA yesterday or the day before.


----------



## Brian Johnston

keto said:


> Your fulla shit, that video got lots of traction early and has been discussed and debunked at length on numerous sites. I won't bother to link unless you ask nicely, but they're not hard to find.


Potty mouth. Why should I ask nice when you talk like that. How about this, shit for brains, indicate an aspect in the video that is wrong and provide evidence to the contrary. That's how it works, right? I will NOT go on record to suggest everything in the video is accurate or true (I do NOT KNOW). I presented the video of a mathematician who took the CDC and VAERS own information (the gov't you trust, since you took an experimental drug and cannot sue the drug company... brilliant!) for discussion. If YOU know of any false information, rather than crossing your fingers that the fact-checkers (likely no statistical or medical experience) says is bunk, please share as I truly would like to know... pretty pleeaaase!


----------



## Brian Johnston

colchar said:


> Apparently transmission in schools is really low and kids who are becoming infected are being infected at home. This was in the news here in the GTA yesterday or the day before.


That's interesting. Doesn't help that everyone can head to Wal-mart, Costco, etc., without restriction. Then again, we need to buy groceries and eat.


----------



## colchar

Brian Johnston said:


> Actually, I work in the health care industry, in rehab.


That hardly makes you an expert in infectious diseases now does it?


----------



## Brian Johnston

SWLABR said:


> I wasn’t trying to coax a reply out of you, but here we are… you have every right to correct someone if they misspelled, or mispronounced your name. That wasn’t my point. Good on ya for ranting off anyway.


Good for you to invest the time ranting that it's good on me. Not that I need your approval.


----------



## colchar

Brian Johnston said:


> it's on YouTube.


Well if its on youtube that settles it eh? Everyone knows that is the repository of all human knowledge.

Gotta love people who go to YouTube U and think they're experts.


----------



## Brian Johnston

Jim DaddyO said:


> About 0.029% total adverse effects of all doses administered at a quick glace. 0.008% have serious side effects.
> 
> COVID-19 vaccine safety: Weekly report on side effects following immunization - Canada.ca


I'll give you a few examples of how little things are reported, since not everyone with an issue will report it. My fiancee's boss is now on heart medication (mid 50s). He was perfectly fine until he got the second shot, then started having heart complications. I actually don't know the condition (he never shared), but indicated it happened within a week of the second shot. No idea how long he needs the meds. Most of the people got the vaccine where my fiancee works (her and a few others refuse). Every one of them have been having repeated bouts of nose bleeds, labored breathing, feeling sick (flu like) and staying home. They all get better for a few days or so, then it repeats... or has repeated. I do not know if it continues to this day (it seems fewer are calling in sick... at least my fiancee is not complaining about her workers not coming in as often as before). The point is this... none of them are registered in the system as having any type of 'injury' or side effect, since they have not gone to the hospital. The boss only went to his doctor, and he never reported it, according to the boss... was merely given certain meds to contain the issue. This is what I mean by 1-10% being reported, which is in line with VAERS and CDC (their own conclusions).


----------



## SWLABR

colchar said:


> Well if its on youtube that settles it eh? Everyone knows that is the repository of all human knowledge.
> 
> Gotta love people who go to YouTube U and think they're experts.


He may have used YouTube as a reference to show “credibility” because @sulphur jumped all over his Right Wing Nut Job vid sharing site a few pages back…


----------



## Brian Johnston

colchar said:


> Well if its on youtube that settles it eh? Everyone knows that is the repository of all human knowledge.
> 
> Gotta love people who go to YouTube U and think they're experts.


No, but this is the problem with critical thinking, and you are a prime example. Let's say that you tell me something that is untrue. Does that mean, from now on, everything you say is a lie? That's a logical fallacy, that because of A then B. It does not always follow that information on YouTube is correct or incorrect, and to make an assumption in either case is illogical. It's no different than saying BitChute is a horrible channel because it has too much right-wing stuff. What does that matter? Impossible to have some good content with the bad, just like information you learn in school? Plenty of garbage in there, but good stuff as well. Also, I posted some YouTube stuff because it's easier for people to digest. If I start posting from medical resources and studies, would you read them? On that note, the second video I posted from that Mathematician speaking on CDC and VAERS information WAS PUBLISHED IN A PEER REVIEWED JOURNAL. Nor have I suggested that I am an expert, but that I am sharing information. Your comment, however, offers nothing of value... not a single thing. As the saying goes, you threw the baby out with the bathwater.


----------



## Brian Johnston

SWLABR said:


> He may have used YouTube as a reference to show “credibility” because @sulphur jumped all over his Right Wing Nut Job vid sharing site a few pages back…


Another bonehead remark. You cannot put down an article or concept/idea just because it was published on a particular site (and particularly when that SAME information is published on other sites). To discount any information from a site that YOU consider a nut job, without taking into consideration the content of what's being said, is dull-witted.


----------



## keto

VAERS is a real thing but not an authoritive source or requirement in any part of the medical community, so you can go in a different direction there, the numbers are meaningless. There's no filtering of the data.


----------



## zztomato

Brian Johnston said:


> I asked a simple question... I never brought up his brother. How is that heartless? Soy boy.


Umm, because you quoted a post where he had mentioned that he just lost his brother? 

Soy boy? 😆

Sorry about your mother.


----------



## allthumbs56

Brian Johnston said:


> Yes, is that in the one hospital you were in... you only have one hospital in the area? Or are those 11 people spread out over a number of hospitals? I cannot do a search on any particular hospital, only a region. From my understanding, the Niagara region has 8 hospitals, which means the hospital you were in has 9, another has 1 and the other 6 hospitals have none. Is that correct?


Hmmm - I was not in any hospital - my brother was. What does that have to do with anything? The News reports 11 people in hospital in the region - 10 of which are unvaccinated. End of story.

Did you even bother to check the Ontario data I referenced? It says stuff like:

_In Hospital: Unvaccinated: 116, Partial: 8, Fully: 37. In ICU: Unvaccinated: 107, Partial: 9, Fully: 8.,_​​_and ,_​​_Unvaccinated rate per 100,000: 9.67. Vaccinated rate per 100,000: 1.45_​
Tells a story - don't it?


----------



## Brian Johnston

zztomato said:


> Umm, because you quoted a post where he had mentioned that he just lost his brother?
> 
> Soy boy? 😆
> 
> Sorry about your mother.


OK, so YOU now are the person to determine what is heartless, even when my comment is IRRELEVANT to his brother passing? Whatever. Here's the main takeaway point... after all this bantering NO ONE HAS YET TO DISCREDIT ANYTHING I HAVE POSTED, with the exception of someone suggesting FACT CHECKERS (LOL... who are checking the fact checkers) claim SOME of the content is incorrect based on the fact checker's sources, which we do not know, nor the accuracy of that information. The original post IS BASED ON CDC AND VAERS information, which most of you tend to think favorably about, I would think. But there it is.


----------



## SWLABR

Brian Johnston said:


> Another bonehead remark. You cannot put down an article or concept/idea just because it was published on a particular site (and particularly when that SAME information is published on other sites). To discount any information from a site that YOU consider a nut job, without taking into consideration the content of what's being said, is dull-witted.


Ya, I’m the Bonehead… again, like when you resorted to insulting me in the (what was supposed to be about) science thread (that you derailed in spectacular fashion) I’m crushed. 

Coming from you, that’s actually a compliment. Cause if ever there is a day you and I come close to agreeing on anything, will be a sad, sad day.


----------



## tdotrob

Everyone here knows hundreds of people double vaccinated with no issue. This guys somehow knows a whole workplace full of unreported complications lolol maybe the office is where the Ramones used to rehearse too.


----------



## Brian Johnston

allthumbs56 said:


> Hmmm - I was not in any hospital - my brother was. What does that have to do with anything? The News reports 11 people in hospital in the region - 10 of which are unvaccinated. End of story.
> 
> Did you even bother to check the Ontario data I referenced? It says stuff like:
> _In Hospital: Unvaccinated: 116, Partial: 8, Fully: 37. In ICU: Unvaccinated: 107, Partial: 9, Fully: 8.,_
> _and ,_​_Unvaccinated rate per 100,000: 9.67. Vaccinated rate per 100,000: 1.45_​Tells a story - don't it?


I understood it as 10 people in 'a' hospital, which is my misunderstanding, and NOT in an entire region (wow... 10 people of 500k... better lock down). My question is this... why is it that countries with the highest vax rate have a much different ratio? They can't keep blaming the 10% not vaccinated, particularly when there are so many vaccinated in the hospitals. Something should be telling us that the vax doesn't do much and the current stats are questionable. You STILL can get sick and spread it... apparently it ONLY helps (not sure of the proof) to lessen the symptoms, right? That information has been out there for weeks. And so, it's at the point that it matters not if people are vaccinated or not. When you have the CEO of Pfizer claiming boosters for life, does that not seem odd to you? Are you willing to do that, in order to go to a restaurant and comply with the gov't? If so, that's OK... your decision.


----------



## zztomato

Brian Johnston said:


> OK, so YOU now are the person to determine what is heartless, even when my comment is IRRELEVANT to his brother passing? Whatever. Here's the main takeaway point... after all this bantering NO ONE HAS YET TO DISCREDIT ANYTHING I HAVE POSTED, with the exception of someone suggesting FACT CHECKERS (LOL... who are checking the fact checkers) claim SOME of the content is incorrect based on the fact checker's sources, which we do not know, nor the accuracy of that information. The original post IS BASED ON CDC AND VAERS information, which most of you tend to think favorably about, I would think. But there it is.


Dude! Chill the fuck out. 
I get that you are scared but seriously, you take all of the conspiracy shit to the extreme. You are even scaring off run of the mill anti-vaxers from this thread.


----------



## Brian Johnston

tdotrob said:


> Everyone here knows hundreds of people double vaccinated with no issue. This guys somehow knows a whole workplace full of unreported complications lolol maybe the office is where the Ramones used to rehearse too.


How many here know of people dying from covid and that the plandemic doesn't actually exist (world population is the same). I don't know any... I know a few who got sick (my fiancee was really bad off and this was February 2020 before all the hoopla... hospital had no idea what it was, with tests, x-ray of her lungs, etc., and with labored breathing). It wasn't until a few months later that her blood results indicated what she had. Beyond that... of all my clients, who know a lot of people (dentists, real estate agent, owner of a construction company, etc.), none of them know anyone who died or even gotten sick from covid. Hey, that's my city. I'm not saying that you don't know of anyone, but the way the news makes it out (and the gov't) you would think every tenth person, at least, was a walking disease factory and ready to die in the streets. On that note, recall the news report out of India showing people literally passing out on the streets, saying it was covid... then someone came up with film footage of a chemical plant that had a leak (months or a year before... don't recall) and it's the SAME footage. Yes, trust the media to report all the facts. They seem to be ignoring that Japan and India have almost completely stopped vaccinations and have been treating people with Ivermectin successfully. That is a good thing... that someone is working (something that has been prescribed, something like 6 billion times over the years for different ailments), but that has been washed under the carpet. Also, NAC is very effective, and they will IV that in you for different conditions, including Covid. You used to be able to get it off the shelves in the USA (still can in Canada), but because people are finding it highly effective for treatment of Covid (home treatments), the FDA has removed it from the health food stores and made it 'prescription only.' Fucking nuts!


----------



## tdotrob

Brian Johnston said:


> How many here know of people dying from covid and that the plandemic doesn't actually exist (world population is the same). I don't know any... I know a few who got sick (my fiancee was really bad off and this was February 2020 before all the hoopla... hospital had no idea what it was, with tests, x-ray of her lungs, etc., and with labored breathing). It wasn't until a few months later that her blood results indicated what she had. Beyond that... of all my clients, who know a lot of people (dentists, real estate agent, owner of a construction company, etc.), none of them know anyone who died or even gotten sick from covid. Hey, that's my city. I'm not saying that you don't know of anyone, but the way the news makes it out (and the gov't) you would think every tenth person, at least, was a walking disease factory and ready to die in the streets.


your are so fucking stupid, the end.


----------



## tonewoody

Oh man. Piss in the closet, barf on the living room carpet, what next?


----------



## allthumbs56

Brian Johnston said:


> I understood it as 10 people in 'a' hospital, which is my misunderstanding, and NOT in an entire region (wow... 10 people of 500k... better lock down). My question is this... why is it that countries with the highest vax rate have a much different ratio? They can't keep blaming the 10% not vaccinated, particularly when there are so many vaccinated in the hospitals. Something should be telling us that the vax doesn't do much and the current stats are questionable. You STILL can get sick and spread it... apparently it ONLY helps (not sure of the proof) to lessen the symptoms, right? That information has been out there for weeks. And so, it's at the point that it matters not if people are vaccinated or not. When you have the CEO of Pfizer claiming boosters for life, does that not seem odd to you? Are you willing to do that, in order to go to a restaurant and comply with the gov't? If so, that's OK... your decision.


You asked for the data, saying it doesn't exist. I provided it. It does exist. You deflected and ran off on a tangent.


----------



## terminalvertigo

enjoying the discussion, let's leave out the name calling..


----------



## Brian Johnston

zztomato said:


> Dude! Chill the fuck out.
> I get that you are scared but seriously, you take all of the conspiracy shit to the extreme. You are even scaring off run of the mill anti-vaxers from this thread.


I'm not scared in the least. Stop reading into it. I'm not scared because I never got the vax. What scares me is having police hold you down and forcing it on you. Very WEIRD that you would think providing alternative information (including stats that no one has yet to refute) is a conspiracy. Usually when you have no argument a person would claim 'racist,' 'bigot,' 'right-wing' and 'conspiracy theorist (a term created by the gov't to make any person asking questions a nut job). If YOU cannot select information, indicate why it is wrong, then why comment and call others names, or suggest data that YOU cannot challenge as being a conspiracy? I seriously do not get that mentality. So easy to simply ignore, but you can't. You know, deep down, there's something there, and YOU are afraid of what you did (vax) and what could come of it. But, hey, 40% are in the control group, which may mean you, and maybe that EXPERT from J&J is wrong about not knowing what the effects will be years from now. Fingers crossed.


----------



## Brian Johnston

allthumbs56 said:


> You asked for the data, saying it doesn't exist. I provided it. It does exist. You deflected and ran off on a tangent.
> 
> Child


I guess you missed the part where I indicated how I misunderstood. No pleasing some people, even those UNABLE to challenge the content I put up. Sorry if I added more information that was beyond your scope of understanding. I challenged your content under the presumption (my fault) that it was from one hospital. Which makes the data even more humorous... 10 people in about 500k in hospital with the flu. Oh, no! Get out the vaxxes!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Brian Johnston said:


> My fiancee's boss is now on heart medication (mid 50s). He was perfectly fine until he got the second shot, then started having heart complications. I actually don't know the condition (he never shared), but indicated it happened within a week of the second shot.



Correlation does not equal causation.

If someone with comorbidities gets covid, and dies, whereas he would have lived with the comorbidities not getting covid, then, in fact, covid killed him.


----------



## Brian Johnston

terminalvertigo said:


> enjoying the discussion, let's leave out the name calling..


So far no discussion. I posted some stuff, no one wants to watch it or learn what DATA is actually out there (from CDC AND VAERS), but that's OK. Just bantering back and forth. If anyone can challenge the videos I presented, do PM me, as this thread is a time vampire. I would be very interested in hearing or reading counter-arguments. Thanks.


----------



## Brian Johnston

Jim DaddyO said:


> Correlation does not equal causation.
> 
> If someone with comorbidities gets covid, and dies, whereas he would have lived with the comorbidities not getting covid, then, in fact, covid killed him.


False (in that it can happen, but not always... you're making a universal affirmative statement)... speak with a doctor on that, but here's one clear example that is opposite your example. You can have a person dying with cancer in the hospital, THEN get covid (or a flu for all they know), and still be dying from the cancer. It's like dying with cancer and then getting a hang-nail on your way out... will the report say "died of a hang-nail"? Of course not, but if a person died of cancer, would have died of cancer without covid, then got covid, and the report says died from covid, that is fraudulent, and it happens a lot (more gov't funding)... particularly if the death was the result of the cancer, while covid is in his system. So many doctors and nurses have spoken out on this... for several MONTHS! Follow the money.


----------



## allthumbs56

Brian Johnston said:


> I guess you missed the part where I indicated how I misunderstood. No pleasing some people, even those UNABLE to challenge the content I put up. Sorry if I added more information that was beyond your scope of understanding. I challenged your content under the presumption (my fault) that it was from one hospital. Which makes the data even more humorous... 10 people in about 500k in hospital with the flu. Oh, no! Get out the vaxxes!!!!!!!!!


You miss the importance of the data and the significance of the trends. Not glamourous I know - but very telling if you were actually to think about it.


----------



## Brian Johnston

allthumbs56 said:


> You miss the importance of the data and the significance of the trends. Not glamourous I know - but very telling if you were actually to think about it.


How about the data and trends in those two videos by that Mathematician, from April to Sept? Not glamourous, I know - but very telling if you were actually to see and hear it.


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> Apparently transmission in schools *is* really low and kids who are becoming infected are being infected at home. This was in the news here in the GTA yesterday or the day before.


Bill Clinton asked what the definition of "is" is in an attempt to evade guilt (I loved Donald Sutherland's comment back then that he couldn't believe the U.S. government was almost collapsed because of a blow job.).

Here, I think we really do need to take a moment to consider the use of "is". My sense is that some may interpret it here as a little too definite. Clearly, there likely ARE schools and districts where transmission in a school can be low, although there are schools that had to be closed because of outbreaks. The schoolyard behind us is still bustling with activity with no announcements of a closure in the local news. As most public health officials had been saying for over a year now, the risk of transmission in schools is going to be reflective of the spread within the community as a whole. So, some kids (or teachers or support staff) may be bringing it home from school, and some may be bringing it to school from home. Not out of criminal neglect, but simply because that's how contagious diseases work. Same way some kids bring head lice home *from* school, and some bring head lice *to* school from home. It happens.

The harder the community works to make sure spread is minimized, the less likely there will be outbreaks in schools, accompanied by closures.

On a tangentially-related note, we're travelling to Halifax for the Thanksgiving long weekend, and I'm in the process of registering myself for the provinces we have to travel through. Entering New Brunswick and Nova Scotia is pretty narrowly defined, as far as entry-points go: Edmundston and Amherst. Quebec, I'm not sure about, so I'll have to look into that.

Both New Brunswick and Nova Scotia provide on-line forms to be filled out in order to register. New Brunswick's is much simpler than Nova Scotia's. NB is simply happy to know you've been fully vaxxed and can demonstrate as much. Nova Scotia wants to know the purpose of the visit, and a few other details (e.g., where you're staying) that NB isn't all that interested in. My Ontario proof of vaccination lists the date of my 2nd shot, the specific vaccine administered, and Lot#. NS wanted me to upload that form but also asked me to check off which vaccine I received and which Lot#. I gather not all proof-of-vaccination from other provinces or countries contains such information. NS also wants us to take a COVID test. The place we're trying to stay at insists that we arrive with a negative test. Not sure how to book one.

Like they used to say in TV Guide: Mayhem ensues.


----------



## GuitarT

Brian Johnston said:


> How many here know of people dying from covid.


I do. I stopped counting at 30 the number of friends and family who have had Covid including six members of my family. All but one were sick to some degree. Five were hospitalized, one ended up on a ventilator and almost died twice, doctors can't believe he survived. Three were left with permanent lung damage, one to the point where he will likely need a lung transplant. NONE of those five were elderly or had any pre existing health condition. They were all between the ages of 28 and 59 and otherwise quite active and healthy. I also have two friends who lost parents to Covid, a co worker who lost a cousin and relative who lost a good friend.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

2manyGuitars said:


> There is no amount of evidence, stats, proof, pleading, encouragement, or anything that will get through to many of these people. You could lay them in the hospital bed next to their dying spouse while an ECMO pumps blood through a garden hose jammed in their neck, and it’ll still be part of some deeper hoax.


A lot of the deniers that die, denying COVID to the end, leave behind families and young children. A trip through their timelines reveals a lot of them posting some of the same links to YouTube videos and "proof from reliable sources". Even some of the same videos posted here. But don't worry, those YouTube videos can tuck those kids in at night.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

Brian Johnston said:


> This is not a discussion, but mocking once a contrary opinion surfaces, including if that opinion comes from a health care professional


Just to be clear, are you speaking about yourself? From what I gather, you train people in body-building. Is that correct?


----------



## Brian Johnston

Jim DaddyO said:


> Correlation does not equal causation.
> 
> If someone with comorbidities gets covid, and dies, whereas he would have lived with the comorbidities not getting covid, then, in fact, covid killed him.


I will add this... as everyone knows, it is the elderly, the obese and those with comorbidities that are most susceptible to covid OR ANY OTHER FLU (which is why a regular flu kills 150k easily every year, and has done so for decades). Those who eat properly, exercise, etc., have an incredibly good chance of surviving covid OR ANY OTHER FLU. And yet, many deaths and injuries from the vax include a much wider range of population (including all the heart inflammation cases in male youths recently reported in Ontario). Also, there was a seniors home in southern Ontario (the name may come to me)... not long ago, gave everyone boosters... four died and several hospitalized... not sure of the time-line... within hours or days. Who knows, the ones that died may have been old. On the topic of comorbidity, I know of two people in their early 80s with diabetes... interestingly, they both survived covid.. this was before the vaccine. They may have been lucky, but I thought the age and condition was worth pointing out.


----------



## SWLABR

GuitarT said:


> I do. I stopped counting at 30 the number of friends and family who have had Covid including six members of my family. All but one were sick to some degree. Five were hospitalized, one ended up on a ventilator and almost died twice, doctors can't believe he survived. Three were left with permanent lung damage, one to the point where we will likely need a lung transplant. NONE of those five were elderly or had any pre existing health condition. They were all between the ages of 28 and 59 and otherwise quite active and healthy. I also have two friends who lost parents to Covid, a co worker who lost a cousin and relative who lost a good friend.


Wow… that’s a lot of loss for you. Sincere condolences.

For the sake of argument, and you do not need to answer… how many people have you lost due to being vaccinated, or complications from the vaccine?


----------



## Brian Johnston

isoneedacoffee said:


> I'm not sure why BJ is still
> 
> Just to be clear, are you speaking about yourself? From what I gather, you train people in body-building. Is that correct?


Rehab mostly. Injuries, particularly with the spine (lumbar and cervical), but also knees, hips, etc. I kept quite a few from having surgery, including a few with shoulder issues.


----------



## Brian Johnston

2manyGuitars said:


> A lot of the deniers that die, denying COVID to the end, leave behind families and young children. A trip through their timelines reveals a lot of them posting some of the same links to YouTube videos and "proof from reliable sources". Even some of the same videos posted here. But don't worry, those YouTube videos can tuck those kids in at night.


Including those who got vaccinated and died... did not die from covid, but from the actual reactions of the vaccination? Yes, I agree.


----------



## allthumbs56

Brian Johnston said:


> How about the data and trends in those two videos by that Mathematician, from April to Sept? Not glamourous, I know - but very telling if you were actually to see and hear it.


No time for your videos, chum. I spent enough time watching the ones you posted on the flat earth. You ignored science in those just as you ignore science, medicine, and mathematics here. Couldn't convince you before and I'm sure I won't now.

You're one of those that just has to piss on the electric fence.


----------



## Brian Johnston

SWLABR said:


> Wow… that’s a lot of loss for you. Sincere condolences.
> 
> For the sake of argument, and you do not need to answer… how many people have you lost due to being vaccinated, or complications from the vaccine?











According to a German study, a third of people died from the vaccine two weeks after the injection.


The presentation on 20 September (video) and this announcement of the presentation (both in German) are available at “The results of the autopsies of eight people who died after vaccination w…




elcolectivodeuno.wordpress.com


----------



## Brian Johnston

allthumbs56 said:


> No time for your videos, chum. I spent enough time watching the ones you posted on the flat earth. You ignored science in those just as you ignore science, medicine, and mathematics here. Couldn't convince you before and I'm sure I won't now.
> 
> You're one of those that just has to piss on the electric fence.


And do you have proof of a curve? I'm waiting on that. PM me. Ignore the crickets. You better consider the science in that six hour video you didn't want to watch. Maybe you can explain all the hoax videos put out by NASA. I can send you links if you want to provide explanations from the 'experts' you come to trust about living on a globe with gravity so powerful it can hold trillions of tons of water on it, yet cannot stop a butterfly (or you) from moving about. I'm simply looking for evidence, whereas you are mocking my search without providing any evidence. LOL


----------



## isoneedacoffee

Brian Johnston said:


> Rehab mostly. Injuries, particularly with the spine (lumbar and cervical), but also knees, hips, etc. I kept quite a few from having surgery, including a few with shoulder issues.


For the sake of this thread, since you are being very contrarian and simultaneously presenting yourself as a "health care professional" (your words), what exactly are your qualifications? Where/what did you study? And what degree did you get?


----------



## zztomato

Brian Johnston said:


> I'm not scared in the least. Stop reading into it. I'm not scared because I never got the vax. What scares me is having police hold you down and forcing it on you. Very WEIRD that you would think providing alternative information (including stats that no one has yet to refute) is a conspiracy. Usually when you have no argument a person would claim 'racist,' 'bigot,' 'right-wing' and 'conspiracy theorist (a term created by the gov't to make any person asking questions a nut job). If YOU cannot select information, indicate why it is wrong, then why comment and call others names, or suggest data that YOU cannot challenge as being a conspiracy? I seriously do not get that mentality. So easy to simply ignore, but you can't. You know, deep down, there's something there, and YOU are afraid of what you did (vax) and what could come of it. But, hey, 40% are in the control group, which may mean you, and maybe that EXPERT from J&J is wrong about not knowing what the effects will be years from now. Fingers crossed.


Ok man, Fair enough. I'm glad this is giving you something to do all day.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

@Brian Johnston, there are scientists all around the globe that agree with you right?


----------



## SWLABR

Brian Johnston said:


> According to a German study, a third of people died from the vaccine two weeks after the injection.
> 
> 
> The presentation on 20 September (video) and this announcement of the presentation (both in German) are available at “The results of the autopsies of eight people who died after vaccination w…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> elcolectivodeuno.wordpress.com


WTF?!?!? Seriously pal!! I didn’t f*cking ask you!!! I was asking out of curiosity the person who posted their story. You don’t need to reply to EVERY F*CKING POST IN HERE!


----------



## 2manyGuitars

..and I love comments like "Wow, 10 people out of 500K. Good thing we locked down."

Yes. It is good.
Health officials and government looked at data and projections and said "as much as it sucks, here's what we need to do to prevent a health disaster". They did it and now have 10 people out of 500k. I look at it as "it worked and was a necessary decision". People who refuse to believe it's anything but a conspiracy say "it was completely unnecessary because in the end, nothing happened".

Which one of us is right? No way to tell because we can't go back in time and undo the measures to see the results. What we CAN do is look at a different region that ignored the recommendations and see the results (gestures at Alberta).


----------



## 2manyGuitars

isoneedacoffee said:


> @Brian Johnston, there are scientists all around the globe that agree with you right?


----------



## GuitarT

SWLABR said:


> Wow… that’s a lot of loss for you. Sincere condolences.
> 
> For the sake of argument, and you do not need to answer… how many people have you lost due to being vaccinated, or complications from the vaccine?


None.


----------



## SWLABR

GuitarT said:


> None.


Thank you.

Again, that is a lot of loss, and I'm sure it was not easy to share.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

GuitarT said:


> None.


You're super lucky! I read somewhere that 1/3 of people were dying after getting the vaccine! Come to think of it, there are three people in my family, and we all survived. Living on the edge, man!

In all seriousness, I feel for all of you have lost loved ones throughout this pandemic, or know of people with permanent problems. Whether due to COVID, whether due to a lack of treatment due to COVID, it all sucks, and I hope we get out of this as soon as possible.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Brian Johnston said:


> False (in that it can happen, but not always... you're making a universal affirmative statement)... speak with a doctor on that, but here's one clear example that is opposite your example. You can have a person dying with cancer in the hospital, THEN get covid (or a flu for all they know), and still be dying from the cancer. It's like dying with cancer and then getting a hang-nail on your way out... will the report say "died of a hang-nail"? Of course not, but if a person died of cancer, would have died of cancer without covid, then got covid, and the report says died from covid, that is fraudulent, and it happens a lot (more gov't funding)... particularly if the death was the result of the cancer, while covid is in his system. So many doctors and nurses have spoken out on this... for several MONTHS! Follow the money.



You missed the part where I said he would have otherwise lived with the comorbidities.

As for the boss with the heart problem and correlation not equalling causation. Well, for all the information we have he could have been living on McD's food, smoking 3 packs a day, and didn't have the personality traits to cope with the stress of being a boss, and other mitigating factors. It may have caught up with him.

If a person with cancer has a prognosis of it being in remission and a good outlook on future health, and then gets covid and dies, covid killed him. If he was terminal and in the end stages of the disease, on life support before catching it, then no, covid did not kill him. You are leaving out a lot of important information.


----------



## SWLABR

isoneedacoffee said:


> You're super lucky! I read somewhere that 1/3 of people were dying after getting the vaccine! Come to think of it, there are three people in my family, and we all survived. Living on the edge, man!


WOW!! You dodged one. There's just me and the wife, so we thought for sure if we still had a kid at home they'd be a goner, and look at you defying the odds.


----------



## SWLABR

I saw @isoneedacoffee post and had a little chuckle, but I was on my phone. This is great.


----------



## GuitarT

SWLABR said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Again, that is a lot of loss, and I'm sure it was not easy to share.


Thanks. I have no trouble sharing my experiences but I do have to bite my tongue at times when it comes to sharing my opinions.  I value friendship too much. This whole situation has become way too divisive.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

SWLABR said:


> WOW!! You dodged one. There's just me and the wife, so we thought for sure if we still had a kid at home they'd be a goner, and look at you defying the odds.


My family of 4 is double vaxxed. Same with my sister-in-law's family, my brother, my parents, the wife's dad...

None of us are dead so somewhere, I suspect an entire family has been wiped out by Pfizer due to our incredible luck. Thought and Prayers


----------



## allthumbs56

SWLABR said:


> WTF?!?!? Seriously pal!! I didn’t f*cking ask you!!! I was asking out of curiosity the person who posted their story. You don’t need to reply to EVERY F*CKING POST IN HERE!


You're right - but he has a right to let the people know. One-third!!!!!! To extrapolate, we must have lost hundreds of millions of people to the vaccine. Hundreds of millions - and they haven't told us.

I wonder if they hid the bodies by pushing them off the edge? That damn Fauci! There must be a video


----------



## keto

allthumbs56 said:


> You're right - but he has a right to let the people know. One-third!!!!!! To extrapolate, we must have lost hundreds of millions of people to the vaccine. Hundreds of millions - and they haven't told us.
> 
> I wonder if they hid the bodies by pushing them off the edge? That damn Fauci! There must be a video


Wait wait wait. Come on, man, simple math. 40% of them jabs was placebos, dontcha know, so drop your millions to....I dunnow, fewer millions!

One of the very funny points is that 'the msm' is supposed to be spreading fear, if any of this crap were remotely true wouldn't our headlines and newscasters be beating us over the head with it? Oh, wait, I forgot about THE MAN keeping it all a secret, where only CT's can find the evidence.


----------



## allthumbs56

keto said:


> Wait wait wait. Come on, man, simple math. 40% of them jabs was placebos, dontcha know, so drop your millions to....I dunnow, fewer millions!
> 
> One of the very funny points is that 'the msm' is supposed to be spreading fear, if any of this crap were remotely true wouldn't our headlines and newscasters be beating us over the head with it? Oh, wait, I forgot about THE MAN keeping it all a secret, where only CT's can find the evidence.


Wait just a minute. What if we only THOUGHT they were placebos? What then?


----------



## mhammer

You know, when 09/11 happened, in the months that followed, the AMPAGE forum (now the Music Electronics Forum) became a VERY ugly place. People were accusing each other of all sorts of things. We don't need that here.


----------



## johnnyshaka

Brian Johnston said:


> Rehab mostly. Injuries, particularly with the spine (lumbar and cervical), but also knees, hips, etc. I kept quite a few from having surgery, including a few with shoulder issues.


That's awesome... you're just like COVID in Alberta...keeping people from having surgery!


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> You know, when 09/11 happened, in the months that followed, the AMPAGE forum (now the Music Electronics Forum) became a VERY ugly place. People were accusing each other of all sorts of things. We don't need that here.


Actually, I think most of us were having some comedic relief. Much needed.


----------



## Wardo

This thread ..lol


----------



## Paul Running

mhammer said:


> You know, when 09/11 happened, in the months that followed, the AMPAGE forum (now the Music Electronics Forum) became a VERY ugly place. People were accusing each other of all sorts of things. We don't need that here.


That's what is happening now...shame blocks all empathy, you feel no empathy for others when you shame them.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

keto said:


> Wait wait wait. Come on, man, simple math. 40% of them jabs was placebos, dontcha know, so drop your millions to....I dunnow, fewer millions!


*WAIT!!!
It all makes sense now!!*

So you know how “vaccinated people are dying just as much as the unvaxxed”? This explains it!
Those vaccinated people filling the ICUs alongside the “Woke Warriors” are the placebo group. So that would make them...


*UNVACCINATED!!!








*


----------



## allthumbs56

Paul Running said:


> That's what is happening now...shame blocks all empathy, you feel no empathy for others when you shame them.


50,000 more Canadians a day are getting their first jabs. I don't think it's shame that's driving that. I think most are just "getting around to it" because they've found a motivator. Those with their heels dug in are not feeling any shame - they don't care what anybody thinks.


----------



## HighNoon

mhammer said:


> You know, when 09/11 happened, in the months that followed, the AMPAGE forum (now the Music Electronics Forum) became a VERY ugly place. People were accusing each other of all sorts of things. We don't need that here.


I'm sure everyone can move forward with at least a veneer of civility.


----------



## allthumbs56

2manyGuitars said:


> *WAIT!!!
> It all makes sense now!!*
> 
> So you know how “vaccinated people are dying just as much as the unvaxxed”? This explains it!
> Those vaccinated people filling the ICUs alongside the “Woke Warriors” are the placebo group. So that would make them...
> 
> 
> *UNVACCINATED!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *


A great thought - but sadly, not true. Placebo or not those darned vaccinated people are refusing to die!


----------



## terminalvertigo

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/portpass-privacy-breach-1.6191749



be careful using "passport apps"

Paper will be much more secure IMO.


----------



## Choo5440

2manyGuitars said:


> My family of 4 is double vaxxed. Same with my sister-in-law's family, my brother, my parents, the wife's dad...
> 
> None of us are dead so somewhere, I suspect an entire family has been wiped out by Pfizer due to our incredible luck. Thought and Prayers


Wow, _thought_ singular, so generous!


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Choo5440 said:


> Wow, _thought_ singular, so generous!


Well c’mon, those things are powerful. I can’t just go slinging them out like Halloween candy.


----------



## Choo5440

Brian - I lost a co worker to covid. 
A nurse
A single mother to two young children
A dedicated healthcare professional.

She was at work one shift, then she just never showed up for her next a little over a week later. 

I'm sorry, but I'm done with your comments.


----------



## tonewoody

Per CBC.
Saskatchewan today, September 28, 21 
449 new cases.
*109 of these cases were children 12 or under (23%) *


----------



## tonewoody

Wardo said:


> This thread ..lol
> 
> View attachment 381458


Super-spreader !


----------



## Always12AM

Brian Johnston said:


> Easier doesn't mean better. When you have officials from the vax companies being secretly recorded, and who claim "we have no idea of long-term implications), and with VAERS only reporting 1-10% of all deaths and injuries caused by it... it's the lack of transparency, rush to get this out, then finding out it doesn't do what it's supposed to do, etc., then the red flags should go up. I'm sure most on this forum (or anywhere) who got the first shot had no idea that the companies would then be suggesting 'boosters for life." They thought they would get it and things would go back to normal... then it became two shots... then it became "only lasts six months... you need regular boosters." It's getting nothing short of retarded. It's like some countries having complete lockdowns based on ONE CASE, and the person survived. That never happened with the flu in the previous years, which took out 150k people every year. Life simply continued for the rest of the 7.5 billion.


I don’t agree with lockdowns, I think we should have had vaccine passports from the day that we had vaccines available.

I do agree that numbers are fudged to justify lockdowns. But I think it’s more likely a last ditch effort for officials to buy time as a harm reduction strategy.

Now, I do agree that the harm done financially and mentally to human beings from the lockdowns were big. But I think that herd immunity would be worse.

I don’t believe that there is a conspiracy for money or control. I think that there are a lot of branches of government filled with people who don’t know their elbow from their ass on a good day that have been struggling with handling this pandemic.

I do think that feeling the need to have a polarized view in support or against mandatory vaccines is a product of propaganda and hysteria on both sides.

You are justified in your feelings based on what you have shared here. I don’t share your views on all of it, but I do agree that there is a lot of human error in the measures that we have taken as a society.

That being said, thank God for all of the good developments and the fact that we live in a country where some people have the luxury of not getting a vaccine. You may want to consider what it is like for people who have to take public transit and work with public and who are genuinely forced to get the vaccine, not by “the government measures” per se, but from the basic hope that it does work to some degree and that it may allow them to continue to provide for their family.

I’m sure that you have considered this, but just giving a reminder.


----------



## sulphur




----------



## Jim DaddyO

sulphur said:


> View attachment 381496


Some folks just won't believe anything science, government, or any authority figure says. We've all heard of the folks living in the southern states and elsewhere who ignore evacuation orders when a hurricane/disaster is coming because "Gosh, we got through the durned thing last time, they's must be lyin' to us again. Last one almost plumb missed us. Only had 3 feet of water in the living room".


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> Some folks just won't believe anything science, government, or any authority figure says. We've all heard of the folks living in the southern states and elsewhere who ignore evacuation orders when a hurricane/disaster is coming because "Gosh, we got through the durned thing last time, they's must be lyin' to us again. Last one almost plumb missed us. Only had 3 feet of water in the living room".


Kyrie Irving of the NY Nets is refusing to get vaccinated and apparently plans on only playing away games because the City of New York won't allow him to play home games. That's just crazy. If I were in charge I'd say that you're either on the team or not. Not surprising but he's also a member of the "Flat Earth Society". Tyler Bertuzzi of the NHL is planning on sitting out any games in Canada - and the team will let him. Millionaire dummies.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

allthumbs56 said:


> Kyrie Irving of the NY Nets is refusing to get vaccinated and apparently plans on only playing away games because the City of New York won't allow him to play home games. That's just crazy. If I were in charge I'd say that you're either on the team or not. Not surprising but he's also a member of the "Flat Earth Society". Tyler Bertuzzi of the NHL is planning on sitting out any games in Canada - and the team will let him. Millionaire dummies.


Rolling Stone just published an article about how the anti-vaxx players are trying to push the league around. Here a juicy little morsel...

“Irving, who serves as a vice president on the executive committee of the players’ union, recently started following and liking Instagram posts from a conspiracy theorist who claims that “secret societies” are implanting vaccines in a plot to connect Black people to a master computer for “a plan of Satan.” This Moderna microchip misinformation campaign has spread across multiple NBA locker rooms and group chats, according to several of the dozen-plus current players, Hall-of-Famers, league executives, arena workers and virologists interviewed for this story over the past week.”


----------



## sulphur

Jim DaddyO said:


> Some folks just won't believe anything science, government, or any authority figure says. We've all heard of the folks living in the southern states and elsewhere who ignore evacuation orders when a hurricane/disaster is coming because "Gosh, we got through the durned thing last time, they's must be lyin' to us again. Last one almost plumb missed us. Only had 3 feet of water in the living room".


I don't have an issue with skeptisism, just when it goes down the rabbit hole and off the deep end it gets a bit much.

Do I like the governement, no. Do I like big pharma, no.
Will I do what I can to avoid a pandemic, yes.

For this to be some massive conspiracy, there would be so many people involved that there would be some whisleblowers by now.


----------



## sulphur

2manyGuitars said:


> Rolling Stone just published an article about how the anti-vaxx players are trying to push the league around. Here a juicy little morsel...
> 
> “Irving, who serves as a vice president on the executive committee of the players’ union, recently started following and liking Instagram posts from a conspiracy theorist who claims that “secret societies” are implanting vaccines in a plot to connect Black people to a master computer for “a plan of Satan.” This Moderna microchip misinformation campaign has spread across multiple NBA locker rooms and group chats, according to several of the dozen-plus current players, Hall-of-Famers, league executives, arena workers and virologists interviewed for this story over the past week.”


I just heard on the radio that Lebron finally got his shots after hesitating, but wouldn't go as far as to recommend them to anyone else.


----------



## colchar

2manyGuitars said:


> Rolling Stone just published an article about how the anti-vaxx players are trying to push the league around. Here a juicy little morsel...
> 
> “Irving, who serves as a vice president on the executive committee of the players’ union, recently started following and liking Instagram posts from a conspiracy theorist who claims that “secret societies” are implanting vaccines in a plot to connect Black people to a master computer for “a plan of Satan.” This Moderna microchip misinformation campaign has spread across multiple NBA locker rooms and group chats, according to several of the dozen-plus current players, Hall-of-Famers, league executives, arena workers and virologists interviewed for this story over the past week.”



Funniest thing about that 'chip' is the alleged blueprint of the circuit that is found all over the web is actually the blueprint for the circuit for the Boss Metal Zone pedal.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

colchar said:


> Funniest thing about that 'chip' is the alleged blueprint of the circuit that is found all over the web is actually the blueprint for the circuit for the Boss Metal Zone pedal.


----------



## colchar

2manyGuitars said:


> View attachment 381511



I don't need to ask. As someone who came of age in the '80s, I know it is!!!!


----------



## colchar

SWLABR said:


> He may have used YouTube as a reference to show “credibility” because @sulphur jumped all over his Right Wing Nut Job vid sharing site a few pages back…



Nothing says credibility like a site that any asshole with a web connection can post shit to.

Now that he has his degree from YouTube U, I heard he is off to grad school at the U of Wikipedia.


----------



## tonewoody

Anyone here familiar with the movie "Idiocracy"? Made in 2006.
Idiocracy

I remember watching it years ago. There were some good laughs but at the time it seemed kinda dumb and forgettable. My opinion changed soon after. The message was echoed in everyday life over and over.

Idiocracy is my #1 nominee for "most prophetic movie that flew under the radar".

Despite the "dumb" comedy aspects of Idiocracy, the plot of humanities downfall due to overwhelming stupidity and adulation of "famous influencers" hit the nail squarely on the head.


----------



## tonewoody

colchar said:


> I don't need to ask. As someone who came of age in the '80s, I know it is!!!!


The hairspray, the guyliner, the spandex, pointy guitars, woodshredding... Guitar Player magazine, GIT... damn, I conceded after VH1. 
Kudos...


----------



## SWLABR

tonewoody said:


> Anyone here familiar with the movie "Idiocracy"? Made in 2006.
> Idiocracy
> 
> I remember watching it years ago. There were some good laughs but at the time it seemed kinda dumb and forgettable. My opinion changed soon after. The message was echoed in everyday life over and over.
> 
> Idiocracy is my #1 nominee for "most prophetic movie that flew under the radar".
> 
> Despite the "dumb" comedy aspects of Idiocracy, the plot of humanities downfall due to overwhelming stupidity and adulation of "famous influencers" hit the nail squarely on the head.


Great movie...


----------



## 2manyGuitars

SWLABR said:


> Great movie...


When it was a comedy, yes.
Now that we realize it was a documentary? Not so much.


----------



## davetcan

I see both the RCMP and Toronto TTC unions are going to fight the mandatory vaccination. Government response should be interesting.


----------



## Milkman

tonewoody said:


> Anyone here familiar with the movie "Idiocracy"? Made in 2006.
> Idiocracy
> 
> I remember watching it years ago. There were some good laughs but at the time it seemed kinda dumb and forgettable. My opinion changed soon after. The message was echoed in everyday life over and over.
> 
> Idiocracy is my #1 nominee for "most prophetic movie that flew under the radar".
> 
> Despite the "dumb" comedy aspects of Idiocracy, the plot of humanities downfall due to overwhelming stupidity and adulation of "famous influencers" hit the nail squarely on the head.


I've seen a few clips and have been meaning to watch the whole thing. It looks funny.


----------



## SWLABR

I was reminded about a long ago conversation, turned argument, with my (now) ex-wife. 

We were driving in the country and passed a very old, but beautifully maintained farmhouse. Some of the most ornate scroll work on the front porch I have ever seen. She says, "it's a cute cookie-cutter home". Now, I know what she actually meant, but I did not correct her... till she said it again.

M "Cookie cutter are those sub-division houses".
H- No it isn't
M- Ya... you know, they stamp them out cookie cutter style and they all look the same..?? 
H- No
M- I think you're thinking "Gingerbread". 

Then... the pause... the realization... if her head opened up, and a neon sign came out saying, "oops.. yes, gingerbread" scrolled across it, it couldn't have been more obvious she knew she was wrong.

The easy thing would have been to say just that, "oh ya... "

What did she do?? Well, of course she doubled down! Yep, dug right in and held onto cookie cutter being correct... it was unnerving. Though not out of character. 

To tie this all back... ain't none of us Sheeple gonna convince a certain someone they are wrong, and we are right. At this point, we could make (and have made) the most valid, legit, sound arguments, with irrefutable proof and evidence. They won't budge. They will continue (regardless of the articles, links, and stats provided from accredited sources) that "no one has shown any proof". We have... lots of it... but yet, still they claim: "no one can dispute what I've said". "No one has shared evidence". 

_Your _"evidence" does not register, or compute with this person. It's fake. 

Anything you smart folks share, they will instantly gainsay... for the sake of digging in. Heck, they may be following a mandate form a "Supreme Leader" to automatically deny mainstream arguments.. I cannot prove that, but it would make more sense if that was the case! 

When we got the warning from the Mods of no name-calling, their comment of "no discussion has happened yet" shows clearly they are not in it to actually discuss. They can't. 

The line to beat your heads against the wall forms just over there behind the wood shed if you think you have an argument. Y'a don't!


----------



## sulphur

davetcan said:


> I see both the RCMP and Toronto TTC unions are going to fight the mandatory vaccination. Government response should be interesting.


In the US, covid has become the number one killer of cops.









Report shows COVID-19 is leading cause of death among law enforcement


New reports show that the leading cause of death among men and women in law enforcement is COVID-19. "We still have to answer calls. There's no way that we can't. We are essential personnel, along with fire and EMTs. There's no way around it," said Brandon Middleton, the Community Resource...




katv.com


----------



## gtrguy

SWLABR said:


> To tie this all back... ain't none of us Sheeple gonna convince a certain someone they are wrong, and we are right. At this point, we could make (and have made) the most valid, legit, sound arguments, with irrefutable proof and evidence. They won't budge. They will continue (regardless of the articles, links, and stats provided from accredited sources) that "no one has shown any proof". We have... lots of it... but yet, still they claim: "no one can dispute what I've said". "No one has shared evidence".
> 
> _Your _"evidence" does not register, or compute with this person. It's fake.
> 
> Anything you smart folks share, they will instantly gainsay... for the sake of digging in. Heck, they may be following a mandate form a "Supreme Leader" to automatically deny mainstream arguments.. I cannot prove that, but it would make more sense if that was the case!
> 
> When we got the warning from the Mods of no name-calling, their comment of "no discussion has happened yet" shows clearly they are not in it to actually discuss. They can't.
> 
> The line to beat your heads against the wall forms just over there behind the wood shed if you think you have an argument. Y'a don't!



And this is why I finally resorted to the ignore function. It's much more peaceful without having to see all the drivel.


----------



## SWLABR

I have never used the "ignore", but this is the closest I've come. In fact, I only popped in to post my little rant, and then I was going to avoid the whole thread. It pains me to read the nonsense, but it pains me more that good people are trying to reason with the unreasonable. 

I wish them luck.


----------



## sulphur

SWLABR said:


> I have never used the "ignore", but this is the closest I've come. In fact, I only popped in to post my little rant, and then I was going to avoid the whole thread. It pains me to read the nonsense, but it pains me more that good people are trying to reason with the unreasonable.
> 
> I wish them luck.


I just stopped reading the bullshit and won't engage anynore to feed the trolls.
Even when providing evidence of their suspect sources or links, it doesn't matter.

You can't reason with the unreasonable.


----------



## gtrguy

sulphur said:


> I just stopped reading the bullshit and won't engage anynore to feed the trolls.
> Even when providing evidence of their suspect sources or links, it doesn't matter.
> 
> *You can't reason with the unreasonable.*


Exactly, and the best way that I could avoid feeding them is not seeing their posts.


----------



## allthumbs56

SWLABR said:


> To tie this all back... ain't none of us Sheeple gonna convince a certain someone they are wrong, *and we are right.* At this point, we could make (and have made) the most valid, legit, sound arguments, with irrefutable proof and evidence. They won't budge. They will continue (regardless of the articles, links, and stats provided from accredited sources) that "no one has shown any proof". We have... lots of it... but yet, still they claim: "no one can dispute what I've said". "No one has shared evidence".


Thing is, I don't know if we are right.

I do know that doing nothing is not a solution. I also know that vaccines are working well - based on all of the evidence. The rest of it is just people, with varying degrees of expertise, doing their best to beat this thing. I also know that the rabid anti-vaxxers are not contributing to a solution - they are just the guy at the back of the room saying that "you played it wrong" and that they could play it better.

This is, after all, our first pandemic rodeo.


----------



## starjag

Due to a combination of donut and triple-triple related comorbidities?



sulphur said:


> In the US, covid has become the number one killer of cops.


This is from Charles Eisenstein. There's a bigger picture out there. Forget what's dividing us, we all need to watch out and ask what do these ideas (may truly) represent.

"No authority during Covid has said, “People are sick, they need more time outdoors. People are sick, they need more touch. People are sick, they need healthy gut flora. People are sick, they need pure water. People are sick, they need less electromagnetic pollution. People are sick, they need less chemicals in food. People are sick, let’s put diabetes warnings on soda pop. People are sick, let’s encourage them to meditate and pray more. People are sick, let’s get them in the garden. People are sick, let’s make our cities walkable. People are sick, let’s clean the air. People are sick, let’s provide free mold remediation on all dwellings. People are sick, let’s promote education about local herbs. People are sick, let’s make the best supplements and practices of the biohackers and health gurus available to all. People are sick, let’s heal our agricultural soils.” None of these are as hard as keeping every human being six feet apart from every other. So let’s do these things. Let’s remake society in their image with as much zeal as we remade society in the year of Covid.
Am I saying not to talk about vaccines and focus only the bigger picture? No. Vaccines, their dangers, their shortcomings, and the measures needed to coerce the unwilling are the visible tip of an iceberg, showing us starkly the system they represent. They are a window into a future of technological dependency where we put into our bodies whatever the authorities tell us to, and wonder why the promise of health, freedom, and a return to “normal” is always on the horizon but never here."


----------



## sulphur

starjag said:


> Due to a combination of donut and triple-triple related comorbidities?
> 
> 
> 
> This is from Charles Eisenstein. There's a bigger picture out there. Forget what's dividing us, we all need to watch out and ask what do these ideas (may truly) represent.
> 
> "No authority during Covid has said, “People are sick, they need more time outdoors. People are sick, they need more touch. People are sick, they need healthy gut flora. People are sick, they need pure water. People are sick, they need less electromagnetic pollution. People are sick, they need less chemicals in food. People are sick, let’s put diabetes warnings on soda pop. People are sick, let’s encourage them to meditate and pray more. People are sick, let’s get them in the garden. People are sick, let’s make our cities walkable. People are sick, let’s clean the air. People are sick, let’s provide free mold remediation on all dwellings. People are sick, let’s promote education about local herbs. People are sick, let’s make the best supplements and practices of the biohackers and health gurus available to all. People are sick, let’s heal our agricultural soils.” None of these are as hard as keeping every human being six feet apart from every other. So let’s do these things. Let’s remake society in their image with as much zeal as we remade society in the year of Covid.
> Am I saying not to talk about vaccines and focus only the bigger picture? No. Vaccines, their dangers, their shortcomings, and the measures needed to coerce the unwilling are the visible tip of an iceberg, showing us starkly the system they represent. They are a window into a future of technological dependency where we put into our bodies whatever the authorities tell us to, and wonder why the promise of health, freedom, and a return to “normal” is always on the horizon but never here."


I assume that the spike in deaths the past two years is where those findings came from.
People were "sick" long before the pandemic.

There wasn't exactly a "normal" either pre-pandemic. Normal wasn't working.


----------



## allthumbs56

They're taking a pretty serious stance:

N.C. hospital system fires about 175 workers in one of the largest-ever mass terminations due to a vaccine mandate | National Post


----------



## 2manyGuitars

sulphur said:


> In the US, covid has become the number one killer of cops.


And in the US, that’s really saying something.



allthumbs56 said:


> I also know that the rabid anti-vaxxers are not contributing to a solution - they are just the guy at the back of the room saying that "you played it wrong" and that they could play it better.


This is a recurring theme in the US with other unnamed issues that have been going on decades longer than COVID...
_“We’ve tried absolutely nothing and we’re all out of ideas”_



starjag said:


> “People are sick, they need more time outdoors. People are sick, they need more touch. People are sick, they need healthy gut flora. People are sick, they need pure water. People are sick, they need less electromagnetic pollution. People are sick, they need less chemicals in food. People are sick, let’s put diabetes warnings on soda pop. People are sick, let’s encourage them to meditate and pray more. People are sick, let’s get them in the garden. People are sick, let’s make our cities walkable. People are sick, let’s clean the air. People are sick, let’s provide free mold remediation on all dwellings. People are sick, let’s promote education about local herbs. People are sick, let’s make the best supplements and practices of the biohackers and health gurus available to all. People are sick, let’s heal our agricultural soils.” None of these are as hard as keeping every human being six feet apart from every other. So let’s do these things. Let’s remake society in their image with as much zeal as we remade society in the year of Covid.
> Am I saying not to talk about vaccines and focus only the bigger picture? No. Vaccines, their dangers, their shortcomings, and the measures needed to coerce the unwilling are the visible tip of an iceberg, showing us starkly the system they represent. They are a window into a future of technological dependency where we put into our bodies whatever the authorities tell us to, and wonder why the promise of health, freedom, and a return to “normal” is always on the horizon but never here."


Many (most) of those are great ideas and would serve the human race well as a whole. The problem right now is that even if someone is doing every single one of those...

COVID don’t care. It can still kill you.
Are vaccines the perfect solution? Maybe not but right now, it’s what we have. If too many people opt out, it may not work.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

allthumbs56 said:


> Thing is, I don't know if we are right.
> 
> I do know that doing nothing is not a solution. I also know that vaccines are working well - based on all of the evidence.



That is about everything in a nutshell right there. At least the people in the know and in the position of recommending a course of action are doing SOMETHING. That is much better than just standing on the tracks while the speeding train approaches just contemplating your navel. Even if it is not a TOTAL solution, it is a direction out of harm's way. That is much better than the naysayers who are resisting proven action for unproven theories. 

I have my own disdain for government and big pharma, but right now, it's the best shot we got. One to spread the word on course of action, one that has the resources and knowledge to give us the weapons to combat this as best they can. Perhaps not the greatest of hands to be put in, but it's the best we have right now. It's much better than believing the "put a quartz crystal and a pound of peanut butter up your ass and you'll be safe" crowd.

I believe the primary goal here is PREVENTION as much as possible. Treatment would be the secondary goal as long as it exists. There are enough stories about the over stressed medical system and it's workers to know that those priorities are what's needed. The system, overworked treating this, does not have the resources to put to other important and life saving issues. Let's give them a bit of repect by not shitting on their advice.


----------



## colchar

tonewoody said:


> The hairspray, the guyliner, the spandex, pointy guitars, woodshredding... Guitar Player magazine, GIT... damn, I conceded after VH1.
> Kudos...



Pointy guitars? I bought this Jackson a couple of weeks ago:


----------



## colchar

tonewoody said:


> Anyone here familiar with the movie "Idiocracy"? Made in 2006.
> Idiocracy
> 
> I remember watching it years ago. There were some good laughs but at the time it seemed kinda dumb and forgettable. My opinion changed soon after. The message was echoed in everyday life over and over.
> 
> Idiocracy is my #1 nominee for "most prophetic movie that flew under the radar".
> 
> Despite the "dumb" comedy aspects of Idiocracy, the plot of humanities downfall due to overwhelming stupidity and adulation of "famous influencers" hit the nail squarely on the head.



I have long held that that movie was a documentary, and a prophetic one at that.


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> That is about everything in a nutshell right there. At least the people in the know and in the position of recommending a course of action are doing SOMETHING. That is much better than just standing on the tracks while the speeding train approaches just contemplating your navel. Even if it is not a TOTAL solution, it is a direction out of harm's way. That is much better than the naysayers who are resisting proven action for unproven theories.
> 
> I have my own disdain for government and big pharma, but right now, it's the best shot we got. One to spread the word on course of action, one that has the resources and knowledge to give us the weapons to combat this as best they can. Perhaps not the greatest of hands to be put in, but it's the best we have right now. It's much better than believing the "put a quartz crystal and a pound of peanut butter up your ass and you'll be safe" crowd.
> 
> I believe the primary goal here is PREVENTION as much as possible. Treatment would be the secondary goal as long as it exists. There are enough stories about the over stressed medical system and it's workers to know that those priorities are what's needed. The system, overworked treating this, does not have the resources to put to other important and life saving issues. Let's give them a bit of repect by not shitting on their advice.


As is all too often the case in life, sometimes the people you like and whom you feel are "on your side" have bad ideas, and sometimes the folks you really don't like have particularly _good_ ones.

High school and adolescence is often about picking sides and being on one. Adulthood is about getting important things done, by recognizing the correct and most effective course of action. Liking who the ideas came from is a nice perk, but largely irrelevant.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

colchar said:


> Pointy guitars? I bought this Jackson a couple of weeks ago:


Hardtail

_Nice!_


----------



## 2manyGuitars




----------



## allthumbs56

2manyGuitars said:


> View attachment 381560


No punches pulled. Here's a link to the actual article:



https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/leonard-pitts-jr/article254469578.html


----------



## Choo5440

🙄


----------



## mhammer

In fairness, I expect that many of the *actual* infectious disease experts don't understand their kid's Grade 6 math homework either. The folks who develop the curriculum keep changing what "math" is about. You could have an engineering doctorate from MIT or CalTech, and your kid's homework may just as well be in Cyrillic or Klingon. Don't expect the kid to explain it to you, either.

But yeah, I get the sentiment: all the experts are wrong, but everybody is an expert.


----------



## tomee2

Hottest thread on the internet today!


colchar said:


> I have long held that that movie was a documentary, and a prophetic one at that.


I'm watching it this weekend for sure.


----------



## sulphur

Choo5440 said:


> 🙄


----------



## tomee2

mhammer said:


> In fairness, I expect that many of the *actual* infectious disease experts don't understand their kid's Grade 6 math homework either. The folks who develop the curriculum keep changing what "math" is about. You could have an engineering doctorate from MIT or CalTech, and your kid's homework may just as well be in Cyrillic or Klingon. Don't expect the kid to explain it to you, either.
> 
> But yeah, I get the sentiment: all the experts are wrong, but everybody is an expert.


I have a PhD in engineering and my son's grade 12 functions course makes no sense at all. I learn it and explain it, but many times I cannot figure out what it's for. Most of the lessons and questions are just math tricks using very specific terms to describe certain operations. 
In the lower grades they were specifically not taught the times table, for some bizarre reason it was decided pictures of blocks worked better to learn multiplication.


----------



## Dorian2

I understood Calculus in Electronics Engineering Tech. better than I understood my daughters grade 3 math homework. lol


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Same thing here. I have no problems with math but the grade 8 and grade 11 math homework is messed up.

The new math curriculum is designed to minimize the amount of effort needed by the teachers and not to actually teach math skills.


----------



## Guitar101

davetcan said:


> I see both the RCMP and Toronto TTC unions are going to fight the mandatory vaccination. Government response should be interesting.











Unifor president Jerry Dias supports mandatory vaccination against COVID-19


Unifor president Jerry Dias, baffled by union pushback against mandatory vaccination policies, says supporting vaccine mandates is a way to honour union members who lost their lives to COVID-19.




www.thestar.com





The president of Unifor (CAW) has stated that he looked into the legalities of mandatory vaccination and they could not win the fight so their not going to oppose it.


----------



## Guitar101

colchar said:


> Pointy guitars? I bought this Jackson a couple of weeks ago:


Hey, who posted a picture of a guitar in a thread about covid19. That will just confuse the anti-vaxxers.


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## sulphur

Guitar101 said:


> Unifor president Jerry Dias supports mandatory vaccination against COVID-19
> 
> 
> Unifor president Jerry Dias, baffled by union pushback against mandatory vaccination policies, says supporting vaccine mandates is a way to honour union members who lost their lives to COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thestar.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The president of Unifor (CAW) has stated that he looked into the legalities of mandatory vaccination and they could not win the fight so their not going to oppose it.


I'm curious how that will play out with unions. There's some grumbling about vax mandates here from a few workers.


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## mhammer

Guitar101 said:


> Unifor president Jerry Dias supports mandatory vaccination against COVID-19
> 
> 
> Unifor president Jerry Dias, baffled by union pushback against mandatory vaccination policies, says supporting vaccine mandates is a way to honour union members who lost their lives to COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.thestar.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The president of Unifor (CAW) has stated that he looked into the legalities of mandatory vaccination and they could not win the fight so their not going to oppose it.


The criteria can sometimes be fuzzy, but the concept of _bona fide occupational requirement_ (BFOR) is a well-established one in labour law. If an employer can establish that a particular qualification or skill is crucial for the job, and/or the functioning of the organization, the courts will generally side with them, and not consider it to be unlawful discrimination. So, being able to run 100yds in under 20 seconds might be considered a BFOR for, say, a police officer, and being able to lift 150lbs and carry it 30yds might be a BFOR for a firefighter, but it would be difficult to demonstrate the necessity for a TTC driver to meet either of those criteria. Is being able to report to work on a fairly reliable basis considered a BFOR? Probably. An employer who declines to hire someone with a health condition that requires them to take off a couple days to recuperate, after 2 days' work, may take a hit reputationally, but would likely not be successfully sued for discrimination if they could demonstrate that they really needed to have the same folks on-site 5 days a week. Is being able to NOT spread this virus nearly as much likely to be viewed as a BFOR? Probably. If drivers can insist on a plexiglass barrier to prevent passengers from spewing virus on them, or insist on every passenger wearing a face mask, then the employer can certainly insist on a driver being vaccinated. More to the point, if you work with the general public (which TTC workers and most of the RCMP do), then following _public_ health guidelines is going to be a BFOR. If you work in shipbuilding or in a mine, it is likely to be up for debate whether being vaxxed is a BFOR. You may still have to wear a face-covering and be asked to wash up or use hand sanitizer (since tools and other implements may be shared), but I doubt vaccination could be legally enforced.


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## sulphur

mhammer said:


> The criteria can sometimes be fuzzy, but the concept of _bona fide occupational requirement_ (BFOR) is a well-established one in labour law. If an employer can establish that a particular qualification or skill is crucial for the job, and/or the functioning of the organization, the courts will generally side with them, and not consider it to be unlawful discrimination. So, being able to run 100yds in under 20 seconds might be considered a BFOR for, say, a police officer, and being able to lift 150lbs and carry it 30yds might be a BFOR for a firefighter, but it would be difficult to demonstrate the necessity for a TTC driver to meet either of those criteria. Is being able to report to work on a fairly reliable basis considered a BFOR? Probably. An employer who declines to hire someone with a health condition that requires them to take off a couple days to recuperate, after 2 days' work, may take a hit reputationally, but would likely not be successfully sued for discrimination if they could demonstrate that they really needed to have the same folks on-site 5 days a week. Is being able to NOT spread this virus nearly as much likely to be viewed as a BFOR? Probably. If drivers can insist on a plexiglass barrier to prevent passengers from spewing virus on them, or insist on every passenger wearing a face mask, then the employer can certainly insist on a driver being vaccinated. More to the point, if you work with the general public (which TTC workers and most of the RCMP do), then following _public_ health guidelines is going to be a BFOR. If you work in shipbuilding or in a mine, it is likely to be up for debate whether being vaxxed is a BFOR. You may still have to wear a face-covering and be asked to wash up or use hand sanitizer (since tools and other implements may be shared), but I doubt vaccination could be legally enforced.


I'm not positive how it's working at the minesite I'm at, I've been off for a while, since before the strike this summer, actually.
They were taking guys down a handful at a time in the cage, as it's only 5'x12', so do the math with 6' social distancing.
Masks were required, but the cage would regularly take 30 or more guys a trip, was down to less than half of that.

It could take all morning on a day shift to just get everyone down, when it would regularly take maybe four full runs to do that before.

There are other aspects that are overlooked, like in the case of an emergency and everyone is sent to the lunchrooms.
I've seen them where you barely had enough places to sit and you're shoulder to shoulder with everyone else.
Not only that, lets face it, once off that cage underground, I doubt that there's a mask to be worn anywhere.

It can be looked at as a health and safety concern too.


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## 2manyGuitars

RCMP officers are already required to get certain vaccines as a requirement of their initial training. Additionally, if you’re deployed on any of the “International Police Training Operations” (peacekeeping), there’s an entire set of other vaccines required.

I don’t see how the union can argue that a half-dozen vaccines is an acceptable number, but 7 is out of the question.


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## allthumbs56

davetcan said:


> I see both the RCMP and Toronto TTC unions are going to fight the mandatory vaccination. Government response should be interesting.


Looks like they're backing off already.









TTC union does abrupt about-face on vaccination position


Over 60% of Toronto's unionized bus, streetcar and subway operators haven't disclosed their vaccination status to management




torontosun.com


----------



## allthumbs56

sulphur said:


> I'm not positive how it's working at the minesite I'm at, I've been off for a while, since before the strike this summer, actually.
> They were taking guys down a handful at a time in the cage, as it's only 5'x12', so do the math with 6' social distancing.
> Masks were required, but the cage would regularly take 30 or more guys a trip, was down to less than half of that.
> 
> It could take all morning on a day shift to just get everyone down, when it would regularly take maybe four full runs to do that before.
> 
> There are other aspects that are overlooked, like in the case of an emergency and everyone is sent to the lunchrooms.
> I've seen them where you barely had enough places to sit and you're shoulder to shoulder with everyone else.
> Not only that, lets face it, once off that cage underground, I doubt that there's a mask to be worn anywhere.
> 
> It can be looked at as a health and safety concern too.


Just curious - any bats in your mine?


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## mhammer

sulphur said:


> I'm not positive how it's working at the minesite I'm at, I've been off for a while, since before the strike this summer, actually.
> They were taking guys down a handful at a time in the cage, as it's only 5'x12', so do the math with 6' social distancing.
> Masks were required, but the cage would regularly take 30 or more guys a trip, was down to less than half of that.
> 
> It could take all morning on a day shift to just get everyone down, when it would regularly take maybe four full runs to do that before.
> 
> There are other aspects that are overlooked, like in the case of an emergency and everyone is sent to the lunchrooms.
> I've seen them where you barely had enough places to sit and you're shoulder to shoulder with everyone else.
> Not only that, lets face it, once off that cage underground, I doubt that there's a mask to be worn anywhere.
> 
> It can be looked at as a health and safety concern too.


First off, congrats on all 39 guys successfully making the climb up and out safely. Mining is not only tough work. It is dangerous work

There's something about men in groups doing physically demanding work, though, that seems to abandon all concern for safety protocols. When my wife had to read reports to assess risk of industrial chemicals, much like the way the unvaccinated fill up the ICU wards, guys in jobs where it was cool to be macho and ignore safety and safe handling guidelines ended up as the case studies in the oncology, toxicology, and dermatology reports.

That said, creating a workplace culture where safety is scrupulously attended to is tough slogging.


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## sulphur

allthumbs56 said:


> Just curious - any bats in your mine?


Too deep for them.

There were some in the upper levels of the mine I was at in Manitoba.
One of the stopes we were mining was open to the pit, so critters would make their way down there sometimes.


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## sulphur

mhammer said:


> First off, congrats on all 39 guys successfully making the climb up and out safely. Mining is not only tough work. It is dangerous work
> 
> There's something about men in groups doing physically demanding work, though, that seems to abandon all concern for safety protocols. When my wife had to read reports to assess risk of industrial chemicals, much like the way the unvaccinated fill up the ICU wards, guys in jobs where it was cool to be macho and ignore safety and safe handling guidelines ended up as the case studies in the oncology, toxicology, and dermatology reports.
> 
> That said, creating a workplace culture where safety is scrupulously attended to is tough slogging.


Ya, it's a testosterone filled industry full of tough guys for sure.

Yes, glad all of those guys made it out of that mine safely.
Some had a "short" trip that were in the upper levels, around 1800 feet.
The majority of the guys were more than three thousand feet down.

Big shout out to the mine rescue guys that had to slog their way down and back up with the men.
They would only take a few per team, a few teams at a time.

The crew that was down there, started a Sunday night shift, and the last guy to make it out was around supper time last night.

They were slinging scoop bucket (an excavator type machine with a bucket in front to "muck" the ore or rock) down the shaft under the cage.
They have to do this at mines that have only shaft access, as some mine also have a ramp from surface.
Something went wrong and the slinging let go, afaik, and the bucket that was being slung let loose in the shaft causing damage,
rendering the shaft unusable, so no way up in the regular conveyance for the men.

I don't think that it made it all the way down to the bottom of the shaft and that it's jammed up somewhere,
but it damaged communication cables making it more of a headache to even just get a hold of the men.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Guitar101 said:


> legalities of mandatory vaccination





sulphur said:


> grumbling about vax mandates





mhammer said:


> I doubt vaccination could be legally enforced.


All employers have to do is point to the Occupational Health and Safety act. Something that unions have fought and clawed for over the past decades to impliment and improve. There is one line in there that covers it. *The company shall (not may) take every reasonable precaution to ensure the health and safety of the workers* (paraphrased a bit perhaps). That pretty much takes care of any resistance to mandating vaccines in the workplace during a publically decalared pandemic for any worker covered by the act...which is most.


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## mhammer

sulphur said:


> Ya, it's a testosterone filled industry full of tough guys for sure.
> 
> Yes, glad all of those guys made it out of that mine safely.
> Some had a "short" trip that were in the upper levels, around 1800 feet.
> The majority of the guys were more than three thousand feet down.
> 
> Big shout out to the mine rescue guys that had to slog their way down and back up with the men.
> They would only take a few per team, a few teams at a time.
> 
> The crew that was down there, started a Sunday night shift, and the last guy to make it out was around supper time last night.
> 
> They were slinging scoop bucket (an excavator type machine with a bucket in front to "muck" the ore or rock) down the shaft under the cage.
> They have to do this at mines that have only shaft access, as some mine also have a ramp from surface.
> Something went wrong and the slinging let go, afaik, and the bucket that was being slung let loose in the shaft causing damage,
> rendering the shaft unusable, so no way up in the regular conveyance for the men.
> 
> I don't think that it made it all the way down to the bottom of the shaft and that it's jammed up somewhere,
> but it damaged communication cables making it more of a headache to even just get a hold of the men.


Any word on when people there can go back to work? I would imagine that, as the only way to get in and out, between the inquest, getting the damn scoop bucket out, and repairing whatever got broke, folks will be off work for a bit.

Reading the story in the Sudbury Star, the rescue team was 58 people, many of them making 4 trips down and back up in a shift to bring supplies to the trapped workers.


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## sulphur

Jim DaddyO said:


> All employers have to do is point to the Occupational Health and Safety act. Something that unions have fought and clawed for over the past decades to impliment and improve. There is one line in there that covers it. *The company shall (not may) take every reasonable precaution to ensure the health and safety of the workers* (paraphrased a bit perhaps). That pretty much takes care of any resistance to mandating vaccines in the workplace during a publically decalared pandemic for any worker covered by the act...which is most.


The last line in that post you quoted, I referred to the health and safety issue.


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## Jim DaddyO

sulphur said:


> The last line in that post you quoted, I referred to the health and safety issue.


I thought it was worth repeating. Sometimes you have to be careful what you ask for. Union H&S legal departments wanted that line in and it has been used on various occasions to their benefit. The sword's second edge can now be put into play.


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## sulphur

mhammer said:


> Any word on when people there can go back to work? I would imagine that, as the only way to get in and out, between the inquest, getting the damn scoop bucket out, and repairing whatever got broke, folks will be off work for a bit.
> 
> Reading the story in the Sudbury Star, the rescue team was 58 people, many of them making 4 trips down and back up in a shift to bring supplies to the trapped workers.


That's to be determined I imagine. 
First, there will be investigations, however long that takes, then to try and extrovate that bucket safely.
Somebody just speculated, but said that if that lets loose again and wipes out more of the shaft, that might be the end of that mine.

We've had issues at other mines, where they were temporarily shut down.
They try and accomodate all the workers by spreading them throughout the other sites to keep everyone working.
Most mines, or at least the one I'm in run on skeleton crews, more bodies are welcome.

There are some answers here, I hate to dominate this thread with this, but it'll be all I contribute about it.


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## sulphur

Jim DaddyO said:


> I thought it was worth repeating. Sometimes you have to be careful what you ask for. Union H&S legal departments wanted that line in and it has been used on various occasions to their benefit. The sword's second edge can now be put into play.


I agree, I was more curious as to how the union will approach to subject. They should be pro vax, I'd think.


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## 2manyGuitars

sulphur said:


> I agree, I was more curious as to how the union will approach to subject. They should be pro vax, I'd think.


It can be a funny thing with unions. Their job is to protect all members, but sometimes they wind up protecting some to the detriment of others.

An example...
The NHL Players union protecting Sean Avery to keep him from getting suspended. He would routinely go out on any given night and potentially end the careers or even permanently disable (or even kill) his fellow union members. Yet the union would step up to defend him to the end.

You would expect the RCMP Union would fight to defend their members except it should be the 19000 who are vaccinated, not the 1000 who refuse.


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## allthumbs56

2manyGuitars said:


> It can be a funny thing with unions. Their job is to protect all members, but sometimes they wind up protecting some to the detriment of others.
> 
> An example...
> The NHL Players union protecting Sean Avery to keep him from getting suspended. He would routinely go out on any given night and potentially end the careers or even permanently disable (or even kill) his fellow union members. Yet the union would step up to defend him to the end.
> 
> You would expect the RCMP Union would fight to defend their members except it should be the 19000 who are vaccinated, not the 1000 who refuse.


Maggs works in a credit union and is a member of Unifor. They have been told by their union reps that if they cannot prove a medical exemption they must get vaccinated or face dismissal. Providing a safe work environment trumps pretty much all challenges.

Meanwhile my anti-vax sil in SC is "Praying for all those that lose their jobs in the name of Freedom". She works for the US Postal Service - I expect at some time soon she'll find herself "free" too. 😕


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## sulphur

2manyGuitars said:


> It can be a funny thing with unions. Their job is to protect all members, but sometimes they wind up protecting some to the detriment of others.
> 
> An example...
> The NHL Players union protecting Sean Avery to keep him from getting suspended. He would routinely go out on any given night and potentially end the careers or even permanently disable (or even kill) his fellow union members. Yet the union would step up to defend him to the end.
> 
> You would expect the RCMP Union would fight to defend their members except it should be the 19000 who are vaccinated, not the 1000 who refuse.


I heard that there's a basketball player, for New York, that will only be playing away games as NYC has a mandate to be vaccinated.
There also a hockey player that won't be playing in Canada, apparently.

Not just the unions, but how do the owners let these guys get away with this?
Just play when they want now? Take a chance to quarantine the whole team for two weeks, how will that affect the bottom line?
Send those goons to the minors, at the least.


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## mhammer

For a number of years, I had an interest in what is described as theories of, and research in, "organizational justice". That is, the psychology of what employees perceive as fair or unfair in their dealings with their prospective or actual employer (prospective because some of the research delves into perceived fairness of hiring practices). One of the areas that I became curious about was the role of organizational tenure, and how being with the same organization for a while changes what you view as fair or unfair.

My thinking on this was sparked by a town hall I attended during the height of the "Keegstra affair" ( R v Keegstra - Wikipedia ). The Alberta Teachers Association provided for Keegstra's legal defense because, as a high school teacher, he was a member, and entitled to all the rights of any member. At the town hall, one person - a teacher - came up to the mic and said that, although he thought the guy was scum, the ATA has an obligation to its members and is honouring it, whether that member is in the right or wrong. A little while later, another teacher came up to the mic and said that "I've been a teacher for 25 years, and let me tell you, the ATA picks and chooses who it defends. And if they're defending _this_ guy, something stinks.". I'm glad this took place in 1982. One can only begin to imagine how it would have ripped Alberta to shreds if it had taken place with social media at people's disposal.

Unions, like people, can focus in on something they perceive as an infringement, or defence, of "rights", to the neglect of historic patterns in the ethical fights of the union, and what rights that union deemed to trump other rights or obligations at this time or that. I'm sure it drives those with long memories absolutely up the wall.


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## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> For a number of years, I had an interest in what is described as theories of, and research in, "organizational justice". That is, the psychology of what employees perceive as fair or unfair in their dealings with their prospective or actual employer (prospective because some of the research delves into perceived fairness of hiring practices). One of the areas that I became curious about was the role of organizational tenure, and how being with the same organization for a while changes what you view as fair or unfair.
> 
> My thinking on this was sparked by a town hall I attended during the height of the "Keegstra affair" ( R v Keegstra - Wikipedia ). The Alberta Teachers Association provided for Keegstra's legal defense because, as a high school teacher, he was a member, and entitled to all the rights of any member. At the town hall, one person - a teacher - came up to the mic and said that, although he thought the guy was scum, the ATA has an obligation to its members and is honouring it, whether that member is in the right or wrong. A little while later, another teacher came up to the mic and said that "I've been a teacher for 25 years, and let me tell you, the ATA picks and chooses who it defends. And if they're defending _this_ guy, something stinks.". I'm glad this took place in 1982. One can only begin to imagine how it would have ripped Alberta to shreds if it had taken place with social media at people's disposal.
> 
> Unions, like people, can focus in on something they perceive as an infringement, or defence, of "rights", to the neglect of historic patterns in the ethical fights of the union, and what rights that union deemed to trump other rights or obligations at this time or that. I'm sure it drives those with long memories absolutely up the wall.


And let's not forget that union leaders are voted in by their membership - and 80 or so % of those members are vaccinated.


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## colchar

tomee2 said:


> I'm watching it this weekend for sure.



It is shit, but prophetic.


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## colchar

2manyGuitars said:


> Hardtail
> 
> _Nice!_



Yeah wasn't interested in a Floyd, but their hardtail models are really good.


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## colchar

tomee2 said:


> I have a PhD in engineering


Seriously? Those are quite rare. Unless one goes into academia most engineers stop after the BA, or at most the Master's.

I did my BA at arguably the best engineering school in the country and even there people looked sideways at engineering majors who said they were going to do PhDs.


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## colchar

davetcan said:


> I see both the RCMP and Toronto TTC unions are going to fight the mandatory vaccination. Government response should be interesting.



The TTC union backed down:









TTC union backs down on opposition to vaccination policy after labour board filing


After weeks of telling its members not to disclose their COVID-19 vaccination status, the union representing TTC workers has done an about-face.




toronto.ctvnews.ca






I have no idea what my union's policy is (I am a member of OPSEU), but as a steward I know that with the exception of one person my local's officers and stewards are fully behind vaccinations.


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## colchar

sulphur said:


> That's to be determined I imagine.
> First, there will be investigations, however long that takes, then to try and extrovate that bucket safely.
> Somebody just speculated, but said that if that lets loose again and wipes out more of the shaft, that might be the end of that mine.


Can they not sink another shaft?


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## sulphur

colchar said:


> Can they not sink another shaft?


That's a huge undertaking, and is not only super costly, but to get to the depths they are, estimating 4000 feet, that could take a year maybe.
It would be cost prohibitive, like multi-million dollars, probably into the hundreds of millions these days.

The hole that was sunk is fine, it's all the infrastructure that was installed afterwards that's another whole ball of wax.
There are skip compartments, shaft guides, piping both water and air - 12" air and 6" water, communication cables and power cables.

There's a complicated mess of necessary gear in that shaft.


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## colchar

sulphur said:


> That's a huge undertaking, and is not only super costly, but to get to the depths they are, estimating 4000 feet, that could take a year maybe.
> It would be cost prohibitive, like multi-million dollars, probably into the hundreds of millions these days.
> 
> The hole that was sunk is fine, it's all the infrastructure that was installed afterwards that's another whole ball of wax.
> There are skip compartments, shaft guides, piping both water and air - 12" air and 6" water, communication cables and power cables.
> 
> There's a complicated mess of necessary gear in that shaft.



Seems like it would be more costly to abandon the mine.


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## sulphur

colchar said:


> Seems like it would be more costly to abandon the mine.


This wasn't from any reliable/credible source, just someone speculating.
They had already put a pile of money into that mine, I think it was mothballed at one time.

If there was some substance to their claim though, if they aren't willing to rehab the shaft infrastructure, they certainly wouldn't sink another shaft.
That was if there was futher damage if that bucket were to come dislodged, or they loose it again trying to extricate it.

I'm not sure ot the timeline for life expectancy of that mine as I don't work there, but that would have some bearing on that decision, if it came to that.

Sure there is an intial cost savings in not driving a ramp along with the shaft, but the headaches that go along with the lack of a ramp add up in the long run.
I worked in a mine for almost 20 years with both, and never had an issue with access or egress.

When I first started at the mine I'm in, it was shaft only. 
By law, you need two egresses, so when the conveyance goes down, everything has to shut down as there is no way to get you out if you get hurt.
So, everyone to the lunchrooms. It's maybe Ok when everything is shiney new, but after time goes on, and the hoist in particular ages, problems arise.
It seems that there was an issue every week, or at least a couple of times a month, That adds up when your whole operations comes to a halt.
That's not worked into your schedule either, so your all your targets fall behind and you have to play catch up all the time.
Once they broke through to the neighbouring mine with a ramp to surface, we never had that issue again.

If they had a ramp in that mine this happened in, the guys would've all driven up by the end of their shift, not climbed up two days later.


----------



## SWLABR

Anyone watch the Agenda last night?? The whole hour was C-19, but the fist 1/2 was specifically on passports & anti-vax. I am in agreement (in whole or in part) to 3 of the 4 panelist. Most of what she said was kinda kooky, and some made sense (very little), but (I feel) they didn't give her enough air time, and I don't think she was the "expert" they should have had... I would imagine the "nay" side are up in arms saying it was 3 against 1... I think overall it was level headed, but then I'm clearly in the Sheeple camp. 






TVO Today | Current Affairs Journalism, Documentaries and Podcasts







www.tvo.org


----------



## allthumbs56

sulphur said:


> I heard that there's a basketball player, for New York, that will only be playing away games as NYC has a mandate to be vaccinated.
> There also a hockey player that won't be playing in Canada, apparently.
> 
> Not just the unions, but how do the owners let these guys get away with this?
> Just play when they want now? Take a chance to quarantine the whole team for two weeks, how will that affect the bottom line?
> Send those goons to the minors, at the least.











Scott Stinson: Andrew Wiggins and other NBA vaccine holdouts have a (very) expensive decision to make


If Wiggins maintains his refusal to get a COVID vaccine, he could miss all of Golden State’s home games, and forego half his US$31.5-million salary




nationalpost.com





Proof that these young men have too much money if they'd be happy to give up 15 or so million of their income.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> Scott Stinson: Andrew Wiggins and other NBA vaccine holdouts have a (very) expensive decision to make
> 
> 
> If Wiggins maintains his refusal to get a COVID vaccine, he could miss all of Golden State’s home games, and forego half his US$31.5-million salary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Proof that these young men have too much money if they'd be happy to give up 15 or so million of their income.


Money and common sense are not necessarily connected.


----------



## starjag

Absolutely!



Milkman said:


> Money and common sense are not necessarily connected.


There’s a previous post about infectious disease experts, maybe public health experts is more accurate. And lately I have been thinking that public health and the common good are also not necessarily connected.


----------



## Paul Running

mhammer said:


> congrats on all 39 guys successfully making the climb up and out safely.


That would have been one hell of a climb...9 hours of climbing 20 foot ladder sections.


----------



## mhammer

Paul Running said:


> That would have been one hell of a climb...9 hours of climbing 20 foot ladder sections.


Yup. 1200 metres may not look like much on level ground. I'm sure there are plenty here who would jog much more than that on any given morning. *Climbing* 1200 metres is a whole other kettle of fish. And, as I noted earlier from the Sudbury Star article, some rescuers were descending and climbing back up that distance several times in a day in order to bring supplies to the miners stuck down there.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> It's funny. When life gets miserable for someone, we often try to console them with "At least you have your health". The implication is that one's health is THE most important thing one could have, because it makes so much else possible. We never say "*Well, at least you have your rights" or "Well, at least you have your freedom*" because if you don't have your health, neither of those have much value. Maybe if you're Mel Gibson with blue paint on your face, in a movie, but generally not for most humans.


Pure gold. 

Consoling words for the unvaccinated lying in hospital?


----------



## 2manyGuitars

The two parts I’ve copied from the article so that I can quote them whenever I hear “But why do you care about MY choices?” almost seem prophetic now, as you pointed out, the article was pre Delta wave.

_“In the U.S., unvaccinated people might be less likely to encounter someone infectious. But on each such encounter, their odds of catching COVID-19 are now greater than they were last year.”

“...the more chances SARS-CoV-2 has to evolve into variants that spread even faster than Delta, or—the worst-case scenario—that finally smash through the vaccines’ protection. The virus thrives on time. “The longer we allow the pandemic to rage, the less protected we’ll be,” Morehouse’s Camara Jones says. “I think we’re being a bit smug about how well protected we are.””_

But again, we’re screaming into the void.


----------



## allthumbs56

2manyGuitars said:


> The two parts I’ve copied from the article so that I can quote them whenever I hear “But why do you care about MY choices?” almost seem prophetic now, as you pointed out, the article was pre Delta wave.
> 
> _“In the U.S., unvaccinated people might be less likely to encounter someone infectious. But on each such encounter, their odds of catching COVID-19 are now greater than they were last year.”
> 
> “...the more chances SARS-CoV-2 has to evolve into variants that spread even faster than Delta, or—the worst-case scenario—that finally smash through the vaccines’ protection. The virus thrives on time. “The longer we allow the pandemic to rage, the less protected we’ll be,” Morehouse’s Camara Jones says. “I think we’re being a bit smug about how well protected we are.””_
> 
> But again, we’re screaming into the void.


I believe Mr. Hammer has the perfect response to those anti-vaxxers who wind up in hospital from the virus: "Well, at least you have your Freedom". 2nd choice: "Well, at least you have your Rights".


----------



## 2manyGuitars

allthumbs56 said:


> I believe Mr. Hammer has the perfect response to those anti-vaxxers who wind up in hospital from the virus: "Well, at least you have your Freedom". 2nd choice: "Well, at least you have your Rights".


Yes, but a common refrain from nearly every single non-vaccinated person I have spoken to, heard from, read about, is...

"By not taking the vaxx, the only person I'm putting at risk is myself so the vaccinated can stay out of my business."

The mutation into the Delta variant is a direct result of millions and millions of unvaccinated hosts.


----------



## allthumbs56

2manyGuitars said:


> Yes, but a common refrain from nearly every single non-vaccinated person I have spoken to, heard from, read about, is...
> 
> *"By not taking the vaxx, the only person I'm putting at risk is myself so the vaccinated can stay out of my business."*
> 
> The mutation into the Delta variant is a direct result of millions and millions of unvaccinated hosts.


Well, we know that that is not true.

BTW, My post was more in the context of reframing the old adage "Well, at least you have your health".


----------



## Diablo

mhammer said:


> Again, I repeat the two questions I asked earlier:
> 1) Do you want this pandemic to go away?
> 2) What steps could be taken to expedite that?


I dont think those questions are going to have much of an impact on the anti-vax/anti-mask crowd, because they hinge on a presumption that they dont agree with.

common responses I see online are
1) There is no pandemic! its all in your head. This is just like the flu. The data is rigged, very few if any healthy people are severely sick from it. Blah, blah, blah.
2)Go on with life, dont be stupid and wear a diaper on your face or stick unknown/unproven substances in your body...the treatment is worse than the disease. Beware the government and big pharma. Herd immunity. See above. the only thing being expedited is our entry into slavery.

You cant use the reasoning in your post with someone who is on completely different footing and doesnt accept the basic premises for your argument. Its like convincing an alcoholic to get help when they dont think they have a problem. why would i get help if I dont have a problem? Maybe youre the problem...you need to let loose, live a little! And so on.


----------



## mhammer

Diablo said:


> I dont think those questions are going to have much of an impact on the anti-vax/anti-mask crowd, because they hinge on a presumption that they dont agree with.
> 
> common responses I see online are
> 1) There is no pandemic! its all in your head. This is just like the flu. The data is rigged, very few if any healthy people are severely sick from it. Blah, blah, blah.
> 2)Go on with life, dont be stupid and wear a diaper on your face or stick unknown/unproven substances in your body...the treatment is worse than the disease. Beware the government and big pharma. Herd immunity. See above. the only thing being expedited is our entry into slavery.
> 
> You cant use the reasoning in your post with someone who is on completely different footing and doesnt accept the basic premises for your argument. Its like convincing an alcoholic to get help when they dont think they have a problem. why would i get help if I dont have a problem? Maybe youre the problem...you need to let loose, live a little! And so on.


Fair point. Whether one is dealing with psychotics, terrorist extremists, cult members, or some kinds of addicts, it is hard to find a crack in their psychic armour to insert even the tiniest amount of doubt. The stance and beliefs are such that falsifiability is completely out of the question; completely doubt-proof. You would think that any fiercely-held belief would welcome tests of its validity. After all, if it withstands a strong test then it must be a really good belief, right? But the desire to have an airtight narrative about themselves and the world makes it impervious and impossible for ANY potential contrary evidence to even be *identified*, let alone put to the test. Sad.

One of the ironies is that the amount of evidence required for vaccines to leave the manufacturer's R&D division, pass quality control, and gain approval by regulatory authorities, is SOOOO much greater than the amount of evidence that anti-vaxxers rely on to cement their case, it's like putting an elephant and a feather on two sides of a balance.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> One of the ironies is that the amount of evidence required for vaccines to leave the manufacturer's R&D division, pass quality control, and gain approval by regulatory authorities, is SOOOO much greater than the amount of evidence that anti-vaxxers rely on to cement their case, it's like putting an elephant and a feather on two sides of a balance.


My SIL in SC (I know - her again) told me some time ago that she'd get vaccinated once the vaccines were no longer labelled as "experimental" by the FDA. I brought that up to her once the FDA approved Pfizer for general use. She replied that they had "cut too many corners and should have taken at least 2 more years in the approval process" so she would not accept their conclusions. My sis - once a letter carrier for USPS, now a quality-control specialist in pharmaceuticals.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

Depressing, frustrating, descriptions of doctor-patient interactions in Alberta:


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/doctors-abuse-covid-exemptions-calgary-vaccine-1.6195142


----------



## Paul Running

It's getting scary with the lack of civility right now. We need some solid leadership to help us out of this.


----------



## sulphur

The Ontario Human Rights Commission ruled that vaccine mandates and vaccine passports do not violate human rights and employers do not need to make exceptions for those who refuse vaccines based on personal beliefs. While the OHRC doesn't make policy, lawmakers do use the findings of this commission when they draft laws.

*"Personal preferences and singular beliefs not protected"*






OHRC Policy statement on COVID-19 vaccine mandates and proof of vaccine certificates | Ontario Human Rights Commission







www.ohrc.on.ca


----------



## keto

I should have saved the damned link, but I read a good source today about natural immunity. They don't have all the answers yet but a) it's not consistent from person to person (lower symptoms = lower response = lower immunity) b) it fades over time c) response always better vaxed.

Point a) is going to be the one that prevents it from being given equal status to vax, for those hoping it will become a thing. It's never going to.


----------



## sulphur

keto said:


> I should have saved the damned link, but I read a good source today about natural immunity. They don't have all the answers yet but a) it's not consistent from person to person (lower symptoms = lower response = lower immunity) b) it fades over time c) response always better vaxed.
> 
> Point a) is going to be the one that prevents it from being given equal status to vax, for those hoping it will become a thing. It's never going to.


I think that I mentioned earlier in this thread that I had the worst flu/fever that I ever had in my life early spring last year.
I was sure that it was C19. I had an antibody test at the beginning of this year and tested negative.

Someone in the healthcare industry, mentioned within this thread that early in the pandemic, 
that they did some testing on healthcare professionals that contracted C19. 
They tested their antibodies and found that they "faded" (for lack of a better term) over time.

So to me, that either shows that natural immunity won't work, or, it you were really sick and weren't tested, it wasn't necessarily C19.


----------



## Wardo

sulphur said:


> …. While the OHRC doesn't make policy, lawmakers do use the findings of this commission when they draft laws.


I don’t see the human rights commission as being very far up the food chain on legal matters and they are in fact something of a kangaroo court. As for lawmakers these days, I wouldn’t be surprised if they were consulting the entrails of a goat when they craft their laws. But that’s another matter.

With respect to a legal requirement for vaccination I think that in most case it would be constitutional. It might breach certain sections of the charter but section one allows for laws that contravene the charter if they are a reasonable limitation on rights and in these circumstances laws regarding compulsory vaccination might well be found to be reasonable.

I haven’t read any charter analyses on this stuff but my off-the-cuff sense of it leads me to believe that such laws would be saved by section 1 even if they breached other parts of the charter.


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> My SIL in SC (I know - her again) told me some time ago that she'd get vaccinated once the vaccines were no longer labelled as "experimental" by the FDA. I brought that up to her once the FDA approved Pfizer for general use. She replied that they had "cut too many corners and should have taken at least 2 more years in the approval process" so she would not accept their conclusions. My sis - once a letter carrier for USPS, now a quality-control specialist in pharmaceuticals.


My dad had his life saved by penicillin, in 1940 or 41, when it was an "experimental drug". I believe it had been used in a pinch with soldiers, but he was one of the earliest group of civilians to get it. At the time, he had contracted pleurisy, meningitis, and pneumonia in both lungs. He was a write-off, so the medical team at the Royal Victoria Hospital in Montreal (which apparently included Wilder Penfield) asked my grandfather if they could try out this new drug on him. He gave permission, and treatment was accompanied by removal of a rib to help drain the lungs.

What was a decision about an "experimental drug" in 1941 would not have passed muster 80 years later. The classification of "experimental approval" will require clear demonstration of safety and effectiveness. "Experimental" does NOT mean a shot in the dark. What allows it to move from experimental to full approval is more fullsome data about dosage, contraindications, known drug interactions, and essentially details.

Every new car you buy is "experimental". After a few years, people find out flaws about the design and it gets recalled to fix them. Some of those flaws might get you killed. Apparently that level of quality control is perfectly adequate, though, for things that thrill us, like cars or weed.

Your SIL seems to have acquired the logic of cowboy movies, where it's dark, and John Wayne says "It's too quiet out there. I don't like it.", assuming that what seems too good is indicative of an ambush any minute now.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> The Alberta Teachers Association provided for Keegstra's legal defense because, as a high school teacher, he was a member, and entitled to all the rights of any member.


That is the whole crux of the situation right there. Once you pay for a service (dues), you are entitled to receive that service (representation). The legalities rely as much on precident as any other court case does. Once a precident is set it is pretty much stuck to. I would imagine ridding the workplace of a deemed "dangerous" employee has been successfully done many times. In today's particular situation, with science, the medical profession, and the government all in agreement that Covid is a danger, and is contagious, I don't think keeping a non vaccinated person in their job could be successfully argued unless that person has an underlying proven medical condition that prevents vaccination.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

https://globalnews.ca/news/8229808/covid-vaccine-natural-immunity-fact-check/


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> https://globalnews.ca/news/8229808/covid-vaccine-natural-immunity-fact-check/


If someone was infected with an earlier variant, last year, and was not sick enough to decide to seek medical attention, there are two things to draw from that. First, if they weren't sick enough to seek medical attention, then they weren't badly infected, and the immune response may not be particularly strong. Moreover, if they were sick longer than 8 months ago, that immune response has likely worn off somewhat. Second, in the same way that people who received their vaccination a few months ago remain concerned about whether it will also protect them from any mutations/variants in future, it is highly questionable whether staving off a mild infection from an earlier less contagious variant provides sufficient protection against the delta variant.

But above and beyond that, reports are that vaccination supplements "natural immunity" from an earlier infection in a robust way. Folks who got a poke some time after being sick were far less likely to get re-infected. It would be nice if our immune systems only needed to be shown something once to learn from it, but it appears we need a second and sometimes third smack upside the head for the learning to sink in.


----------



## Choo5440

sulphur said:


> Someone in the healthcare industry, mentioned within this thread that early in the pandemic,
> that they did some testing on healthcare professionals that contracted C19.
> They tested their antibodies and found that they "faded" (for lack of a better term) over time.


yup, that was me. 

On a happier note - the news is that Merck has a potential new treatment that looks promising. From the sounds of it, it'll help reduce symptoms, although I'd like to see the full research done so far.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/merck-covid19-pill-us-fda-deaths-1.6196007


----------



## colchar

sulphur said:


> The Ontario Human Rights Commission ruled that vaccine mandates and vaccine passports do not violate human rights and employers do not need to make exceptions for those who refuse vaccines based on personal beliefs. While the OHRC doesn't make policy, lawmakers do use the findings of this commission when they draft laws.
> 
> *"Personal preferences and singular beliefs not protected"*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> OHRC Policy statement on COVID-19 vaccine mandates and proof of vaccine certificates | Ontario Human Rights Commission
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ohrc.on.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 381699



I want that t-shirt.


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> My dad had his life saved by penicillin, in 1940 or 41, when it was an "experimental drug".


Pretty impressive considering that the first successful use of penicillin in the UK didn't take place until '42, and it was in the same year that the first patient in the US was treated with US made penicillin.


----------



## Diablo

I think the Merck pill probably wont change the overall vax environment....its only 50% effective, compared to 90%+ for the vax. And its not preventative, its for after you're already showing symptoms. The pills at this time cost $700, which is expensive, but cheap compared to a hospital stay.
But really good news for repentant anti-vaxxers who catch covid. Will they trust the pill any more than the vax though?


----------



## keto

Diablo said:


> I think the Merck pill probably wont change the overall vax environment....its only 50% effective, compared to 90%+ for the vax. And its not preventative, its for after you're already showing symptoms. The pills at this time cost $700, which is expensive, but cheap compared to a hospital stay.
> But really good news for repentant anti-vaxxers who catch covid. Will they trust the pill any more than the vax though?


I'm seeing anti's saying it's rebranded/reformulated ivermectin/hydrochorawhatsits, because of course they would.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

keto said:


> I'm seeing anti's saying it's rebranded/reformulated ivermectin/hydrochorawhatsits, because of course they would.


and of course they all have Phd's in chemisty, so they know what's in it. I'm also sure they could do a better job themselves, if they only had the time...lol.


----------



## Choo5440

keto said:


> /hydrochorawhatsits,


*hydrochloroquine. 

and i guess a pill is better than an injection?

Although monoclonal antibodies and remdesivir treatments are IV :/

🤦‍♂️


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> Pretty impressive considering that the first successful use of penicillin in the UK didn't take place until '42, and it was in the same year that the first patient in the US was treated with US made penicillin.


As I understand it, it was "available" in 1941, but was still in the experimental stage, and not recommended for anything. They had to try it out on _somebody_, before using it more widely, and my father was one of the somebodies. I have no idea how many others preceded him. You can understand that, as sick as he was, doctors were ready to try just about anything, even "unproven" treatments. Unfortunately, my dad passed away a long time ago, as have anyone alive at that time, so I cannot confirm the specific date. I'm just relaying what I was told. Ironically, I'm allergic to the stuff.


----------



## Diablo

Paul Running said:


> It's getting scary with the lack of civility right now. We need some solid leadership to help us out of this.


Im not sure what leadership could do or say at this point? Its a little beyond an Obama speech.
Us and our neighbours to the south are very divided countries right now. 
I dont think theres a middle ground for this. Both sides think their lives are in danger by the other.


----------



## tomee2

Diablo said:


> Im not sure what leadership could do or say at this point? Its a little beyond an Obama speech.
> Us and our neighbours to the south are very divided countries right now.
> I dont think theres a middle ground for this. Both sides think their lives are in danger by the other.


My sister and her husband have pretty much shut themselves off from the rest of the family. They're entrenched in the world of Fox 'news' and nothing we say does any good. Points of discussion remain the kids, pets, work, and the weather.


----------



## tonewoody

Choo5440 said:


> ...and i guess a pill is better than an injection?....🤦‍♂️


How many microchips can you fit in a capsule?


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Diablo said:


> But really good news for repentant anti-vaxxers who catch covid. Will they trust the pill any more than the vax though?


Oh, it’s all imaginary, a hoax, or some combination of the two and the medical “scam-munity” is in on it all...

Until _THEY_ get sick.

Then they get treatment but it’s the double-secret treatment that big pharma doesn’t want you to know about. Or it was due to their “super-patriotic natural immunity” and “prayer warriors”.

Once Bubba is facing the working end of a ventilator, he’ll eat those pills by the handful and find a way to credit “you know who” for the cure.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

BTW, injecting (no pun intended) a little humour into this thread...


----------



## allthumbs56

Maggs had an interesting question last night. She wondered how many unvaccinated people are collecting the CRB. People collecting CRB are depending on society to support them financially through the pandemic and expect to collect for as long as the pandemic continues. She thought that maybe those collecting CRB should be vaccinated as a condition. It's just giving back to society and a return of what's being invested in the individual.

Makes sense to me.


----------



## JBFairthorne

If they can’t make them go and pick up garbage at the side of the road or perform some other benefit to society as a condition of getting their free $ then I highly doubt they can make it conditional upon vaccination.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Well, you could have the cheques "pick up only" in an office you can't enter unless you have been vaccinated.


----------



## zztomato

allthumbs56 said:


> Maggs had an interesting question last night. She wondered how many unvaccinated people are collecting the CRB. People collecting CRB are depending on society to support them financially through the pandemic and expect to collect for as long as the pandemic continues. She thought that maybe those collecting CRB should be vaccinated as a condition. It's just giving back to society and a return of what's being invested in the individual.
> 
> Makes sense to me.



Ok, before we demonize the vaccine hesitant any further....
You are only posing the question about people on CRB being anti-vaxers. I don't know where to find any statistical data to back up what is only an assumption. I know one anti-vaxer, covid conspiracy believer -who lives in Alberta- and he is not living off the CRB.


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Maggs had an interesting question last night. She wondered how many unvaccinated people are collecting the CRB. People collecting CRB are depending on society to support them financially through the pandemic and expect to collect for as long as the pandemic continues. She thought that maybe those collecting CRB should be vaccinated as a condition. It's just giving back to society and a return of what's being invested in the individual.
> 
> Makes sense to me.


Nah. I mean it's an interesting "lever" to pull, but plenty of folks on CERB are there entirely independent of their life choices, apart from what line/s of work they ended up in. If your employer _can't_ employ you currently, that's no reason to penalize you further.

On the other hand, if one _could_ be gainfully re-employed if only you were willing to get vaccinated, then it is hard for me to see that as any different than insisting on EI or social assistance because you "don't believe in working that hard", or that "work is a risk to my mental/physical health".

In any event, I can't imagine that the number of folks who are on CERB *and* are staunchly against getting immunized is particularly large.


----------



## FatStrat2

I had COVID in Feb 2020, solid immunity. Got my first shot on condition of keeping my job (that's extortion by any definition) - 80% immune according to 'experts'. Second shot, now 100% immune - these government scientists and 'top' doctors are just oh so smart.

I've traveled all over the world, frankly I'm bored w/ coming home and seeing huge bills waiting for me and only fading memories to pay them. Though I do miss my favorite restaurants, they all do take-out - so no biggie. I haven't been to an outdoor sporting event since the Jays won (twice) in the mid-80s - a die-hard MLB follower minus one. Movies? Always at home (70" screen + kick-ass stereo & surrounds). Gym is gone, but have all new heavy duty equipment, don't miss the loud clank of dropped weights nor the male posturing - and I can play my own music too. I have to mask up at grocery stores, but my nose is always & forever poking out - and no one cares or notices. I breath through my nose, BTW.


----------



## tonewoody




----------



## Wardo

The only thing I miss is playing at jams and open mics in bars which I had started to do a lot of before the 19 hit. As for going to bars generally I couldn't give a fuckin damn and was only there to play. Grocery shopping has become a nuisance because I'm going at 6:00 AM when the place is empty. Other things I just get delivered and I'm using Zoom for work stuff which is great because I don't have to go into toronto and deal with that shit.


----------



## Diablo

I miss having more space from my wife during the day lol
and I miss the extracurrocular activities my kid enjoyed.
as well as going to car shows.
I will probably also miss going on a yearly vacation down south in the colder months.

but that’s about it. I never liked crowds to begin with.


----------



## JBFairthorne

I wish they had social distancing 20 years ago.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

I'm surprised at how little things changed for us. We are real home bodies. When people say "go big, or go home", they seriously underestimate my desire to go home. Like, it's my only purpose.

Wearing a mask shopping is no biggie, and with my face, probably a favour to everyone else...lol.

You can't throw a rock around this area without hitting a help wanted sign. If you don't have a job around here, you just don't want to work. They want everything from cleaners and desk clerks to engineers and everything in between here.


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> I'm surprised at how little things changed for us. We are real home bodies. When people say "go big, or go home", they seriously underestimate my desire to go home. Like, it's my only purpose.
> 
> Wearing a mask shopping is no biggie, and with my face, probably a favour to everyone else...lol.
> 
> You can't throw a rock around this area without hitting a help wanted sign. If you don't have a job around here, you just don't want to work. They want everything from cleaners and desk clerks to engineers and everything in between here.


Same here. I've thought about coming out of retirement to work in one of those we-need-all-the-help-we-can-hire areas, for at least a little while. I don't need the money, so crappy wages is no deterrent. AFAIC it would all be gravy. They desperately need school bus drivers, and I could probably put up with the kids for a while. But the split shifts is a bit of a deal-breaker, as would be the need to acquire the necessary transportation license. I could be a server, though I imagine some here would consider me too longwinded to be tolerable ("Today's special reminds me of the time that I...."   ). Lee Valley generally seeks additional staff for the Xmas period, though, and that's something I'd be proud to do, not just willing.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

This is a long one, but this is Gold!!



























































































Continued


----------



## 2manyGuitars




----------



## starjag

The antiviral news is good news for every one. It doesn't matter if it's rebranded overpriced stuff. It has the potential to help lots of people.


----------



## FatStrat2

Speaking of grade-A morons. I think those dullards tend to overlook & dismiss the potency of natural immunity post-COVID. T-cells for the win!


----------



## Wardo

I don't have the answer and I'd like to know but I see some references to natural immunity being nothing to write home about either. The lucky 19 is almost certainly a gain of function custom shop build; gonna get you commin and goin.


----------



## mhammer

Immunity is not, and never, all-or-none, just as infection is never all-or-none. If a person was "lightly" infected with an earlier variant, and beat it, then their immune system was able to manage a lesser infection of a less virulent variant. It does not mean they would have a robust immune response to a substantially more virulent Delta-variant infection. As I tried to convey earlier, the problem with the Delta variant is that it replicates VERY quickly. In the drag race between the virus and your immune system, the virus has accelerated to 120kph when your immune system is just getting up to 30kph. The immune response *can* eventually catch up (_will_ is not a certainty), and you won't be left standing at the start line, but that first quarter mile is going to be sheer hell. I mean, a prior infection provides a _bit_ of a head start, but not enough to assure success. If our immune systems were THAT effective, we could fight off *everything*, and employers could eliminate "sick days" from collective agreements.

As a general comment, as disappointed as I am in the resistance by some to engaging in the cooperative effort to push this virus off the landscape, ridicule is unnecessary, unproductive, and unbecoming. If we want people to make what we consider "better" decisions, the optimal is to provide persuasive reasons to take those decisions, not just blanket criticism for doing something different.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Learning takes place in a variety of ways.
Some can listen and learn.
Some can see and learn.
I think all of those people that are able to take the lessons by listening and observing have done so.
That just leaves the "learn by experience" people left. Which is sad, but you just have to wish them the best of luck.


----------



## Choo5440

back to updates

I've been seeing a number of articles talking about the longer-term differences between the pfizer and moderna shots.

there seems to be evidence of slightly high antibody levels with moderna, although the reasons are still unknown 
possible combinations of:
lower dose of vaccine in pfizer
shortened dosing schedule
higher prevalence amongst the elderly population since pfizer was rolled out first.

good news, this higher level of antibodies doesn't seem to affect anything so far in terms of number of breakthrough infections, or severity of illness with breakthrough infection.


----------



## davetcan

Don't rush out to get a booster shot just yet. Not sure I would call this a "chilling" prediction.  



https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/vaccine-maker-just-made-chilling-164844830.html


----------



## allthumbs56

davetcan said:


> Don't rush out to get a booster shot just yet. Not sure I would call this a "chilling" prediction.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/vaccine-maker-just-made-chilling-164844830.html


Aren't they already doing boosters for some of the elderly and infirm?


----------



## mhammer

davetcan said:


> Don't rush out to get a booster shot just yet. Not sure I would call this a "chilling" prediction.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/vaccine-maker-just-made-chilling-164844830.html


Mid-2022 for a booster is not really unexpected. Given how many people (as least in Europe and North America) were vaccinated by mid-2021, a 3rd shot a year later is no different than what we normally do for the flu.


----------



## davetcan

mhammer said:


> Mid-2022 for a booster is not really unexpected. Given how many people (as least in Europe and North America) were vaccinated by mid-2021, a 3rd shot a year later is no different than what we normally do for the flu.


Agreed. I think anything this year is jumping the gun a bit. Time will tell of course.


----------



## davetcan

allthumbs56 said:


> Aren't they already doing boosters for some of the elderly and infirm?


Yep. I wish we could get demographics on exactly who the double vaccinated people that are still coming down with the virus are. It would perhaps help some of us in making a decision.


----------



## isoneedacoffee

Adding some levity here, courtesy of Canada's finest - Jon LaJoie


----------



## sulphur

davetcan said:


> Don't rush out to get a booster shot just yet. Not sure I would call this a "chilling" prediction.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/vaccine-maker-just-made-chilling-164844830.html


Nice click bait title.

I have a buddy in his later 50s that had a double lung transplant several years ago that recently got a call for a booster shot.


----------



## mhammer

davetcan said:


> Agreed. I think anything this year is jumping the gun a bit. Time will tell of course.


Jumping the gun for some, certainly. But let's not confuse folks like myself and my wife, who got poke #2 in July with Israeli folks who got theirs in February or so. Also worth noting that, at the time Israel was poking people for the second time, we hadn't learned as much about optimal spacing of doses. We certainly knew that it would take a few weeks for each administration of vaccine to kick in, simply because of how immune systems work, but waiting 12 weeks for #2 (which my wife and I learned about and adjusted our appointment for) was not something that was learned about until well after all those Israeli seniors had gotten poked the 2nd time. So, in some sub-populations, a 3rd booster shot is, to some extent, compensating for what wasn't accomplished by a 2nd shot received a little too soon, all those months ago.

Live and learn.

Heard an American woman interviewed on CBC radio last night whose husband had put off getting vaccinated, and finally did, very recently. Four days after getting poked, he came down with Covid-19, or at least was _hospitalized_ for it (suggesting trouble was brewing before then), and died a few days later. I expect someone is going to naively attribute his death to the vaccine - post hoc ergo propter hoc, and all that - neglecting the fact that it would have taken a few weeks in a normal well-functioning immune system for adequate protection to have been produced by a single shot. So many lives needlessly lost.


----------



## Mikev7305

mhammer said:


> Four days after getting poked, he came down with Covid-19, or at least was _hospitalized_ for it (suggesting trouble was brewing before then), and died a few days later. I expect someone is going to naively attribute his death to the vaccine


But why would you be so sure that his death was caused by a natural covid infection as opposed to the vaccine? Or maybe both together caused the death. There's a theory I've heard from two prominent immunologists that the people that have died post vaccine, were possibly already infected with covid, and the extra strain the shot gave to your immune system caused the death. We've never given kids vaccinations WHILE they were sick, the doctor will always say "wait until they are healthy before getting a shot". 

I could subscribe to this theory, as I think the number of deaths post vaccine, and the likelyhood of having a current infection when getting the shot could be pretty similar. But who knows. 

What they should really be doing, is testing people for infection before shooting them up. Why double strain your immune system? Not many vaccines give people so many symptoms (very similar symptoms to the actual virus) like this one does. So clearly our bodies would have a tough time handling both a shot and a natural infection at once.


----------



## mhammer

Mikev7305 said:


> But why would you be so sure that his death was caused by a natural covid infection as opposed to the vaccine? Or maybe both together caused the death. There's a theory I've heard from two prominent immunologists that the people that have died post vaccine, were possibly already infected with covid, and the extra strain the shot gave to your immune system caused the death. We've never given kids vaccinations WHILE they were sick, the doctor will always say "wait until they are healthy before getting a shot".
> 
> I could subscribe to this theory, as I think the number of deaths post vaccine, and the likelyhood of having a current infection when getting the shot could be pretty similar. But who knows.
> 
> What they should really be doing, is testing people for infection before shooting them up. Why double strain your immune system? Not many vaccines give people so many symptoms (very similar symptoms to the actual virus) like this one does. So clearly our bodies would have a tough time handling both a shot and a natural infection at once.


The reason why that makes no sense is that mRNA "vaccines" are not simply deactivated pathogens, like many of the traditional vaccines we are accustomed to. So they don't really pose any sort of strain or stress. In this case, it is also known that his rapidly declining health was from Covid symptoms, not from any known reaction to vaccine.

Trust me, if there was ANY possibility that the vaccination made things worse, public health folks would have been broadcasting this all over the place, telling everybody "As much as we want you to get a shot, do *NOT* go for your shot if you are not feeling well."

On a different note, the always informative Dr. John Campbell had a nice summary of the state of affairs in Canada the other day. Starts around the 3:59 mark. Makes a VERY persuasive case for vaccination.


----------



## SWLABR

I just heard of a new twist from the anti-vax foilhat brigade. One lone employee at work is the last to get the jab. When they got wind we may go man-vax they told someone about a “vaccine flush” you take immediately after your shot that cleans out the vaccine. That way, you get shot, get the tick in the box so you can get your papers, but you don’t have the vaccine actually running through your body.

WHAT?!?!? You won’t take a scientifically researched and backed medicine, but you’re willing to chug some toxic elixir to rid you of the vaccine?!?!

I suppose this is sort of a stretch to call this an “update”, but has anyone else heard this?


----------



## JBFairthorne

Fak let’s convince them all it’s true. It’s that many more people vaccinated.


----------



## RJP110

mhammer said:


> Immunity is not, and never, all-or-none, just as infection is never all-or-none. If a person was "lightly" infected with an earlier variant, and beat it, then their immune system was able to manage a lesser infection of a less virulent variant. It does not mean they would have a robust immune response to a substantially more virulent Delta-variant infection. As I tried to convey earlier, the problem with the Delta variant is that it replicates VERY quickly. In the drag race between the virus and your immune system, the virus has accelerated to 120kph when your immune system is just getting up to 30kph. The immune response *can* eventually catch up (_will_ is not a certainty), and you won't be left standing at the start line, but that first quarter mile is going to be sheer hell. I mean, a prior infection provides a _bit_ of a head start, but not enough to assure success. If our immune systems were THAT effective, we could fight off *everything*, and employers could eliminate "sick days" from collective agreements.
> 
> As a general comment, as disappointed as I am in the resistance by some to engaging in the cooperative effort to push this virus off the landscape, ridicule is unnecessary, unproductive, and unbecoming. If we want people to make what we consider "better" decisions, the optimal is to provide persuasive reasons to take those decisions, not just blanket criticism for doing something different.


This is very true, but there's a fair amount of data that suggests you can be asymptomatic or have mild disease and still mount a very strong immune response. This makes sense as viral loads in asymptomatic individuals (both vaccinated and unvaccinated) have been found to equal those with more severe symptoms. 

Delta is a game changer though, as it's affinity to the ACE2 receptor is much higher. So it binds more readily and therefore we start with more virus. Also, it has changes to the furin cleavage site which helps more of the available virus enter the cell. So with the alpha variant you (hypothetically) maybe started off with 1000 viral particles and only 10% of those could enter the cell. With Delta you start with 10000 viral particles and 70% of those can enter the cell. So after the initial replication period, you end up with a substantially higher viral load vs alpha. And although Delta can evade both natural immunity as well as vaccinated immunity, the general consensus is that natural immunity is still more robust at preventing reinfection. Although, it is unclear for how long. Currently, we have 60 people in the hospital with CV19. 10 of those are vaccinated. The past few months have painted the same picture......there are far fewer vaccinated hospitalizations. But, I will say that in almost 2 years I've not seen anyone that has recovered from covid be reinfected.

"*ridicule is unnecessary, unproductive, and unbecoming. If we want people to make what we consider "better" decisions, the optimal is to provide persuasive reasons to take those decisions, not just blanket criticism for doing something different.*"

So true! Many people are just plain nasty on both sides of this mess.


----------



## Mikev7305

mhammer said:


> The reason why that makes no sense is that mRNA "vaccines" are not simply deactivated pathogens, like many of the traditional vaccines we are accustomed to. So they don't really pose any sort of strain or stress


How can you say they don't pose any sort of strain or stress? Most people had some kind of symptom a day or two after the shot of feeling like crap. What is it your body is doing to create a "symptom"? your immune system is being put to work. And your body all of a sudden is creating spike proteins by the billions. We know the virus isn't in the vaccine, but your body is creating a similar version of it now.


----------



## allthumbs56

davetcan said:


> Yep. I wish we could get demographics on exactly who the double vaccinated people that are still coming down with the virus are. It would perhaps help some of us in making a decision.


Site in Ontario are still just doing "1st shot / 2nd shot". Don't know how or if they are recording 3rd shots.


----------



## mhammer

Mikev7305 said:


> How can you say they don't pose any sort of strain or stress? Most people had some kind of symptom a day or two after the shot of feeling like crap. What is it your body is doing to create a "symptom"? your immune system is being put to work. And your body all of a sudden is creating spike proteins by the billions. We know the virus isn't in the vaccine, but your body is creating a similar version of it now.


As far as I know, the most common post-injection "symptom" is a sore shoulder. Flu shots tend to lay people lower.
mRNA vaccines don't make replicas of the virus. They result in replicas of the spike proteins alone being produced. The analogy I like to use is that it is like teaching your army how to draw the enemy flag. It's not practicing against the enemy soldiers, but it will be able to recognize the enemy soldiers when they come because it recognizes their flag extremely well. The spike protein doesn't do anything on its own, any more than the enemy flag does.


----------



## MetalTele79

For boosters - Long Term Care residents in Ontario should all have a 3rd dose by now. I have seen a few physicians who have received a 3rd dose. I've seen people who have 2 doses of a non Health Canada approved vaccine (but WHO approved) be required to have a single dose (3rd shot) of an approved mRNA vaccine.

For breakthrough cases - All that I have seen have been double vaccinated with Pfizer in Dec/Jan. I can't recall a person who was vaccinated with Moderna who has tested positive.


----------



## allthumbs56

MetalTele79 said:


> For boosters - Long Term Care residents in Ontario should all have a 3rd dose by now. I have seen a few physicians who have received a 3rd dose. I've seen people who have 2 doses of a non Health Canada approved vaccine (but WHO approved) be required to have a single dose (3rd shot) of an approved mRNA vaccine.
> 
> For breakthrough cases - All that I have seen have been double vaccinated with Pfizer in Dec/Jan. I can't recall a person who was vaccinated with Moderna who has tested positive.


I wonder how they're recording the 3rd shots on their website. I record that data everyday so either my 1st jab or 2nd jab columns are being skewed 😕


----------



## allthumbs56

SWLABR said:


> I just heard of a new twist from the anti-vax foilhat brigade. One lone employee at work is the last to get the jab. When they got wind we may go man-vax they told someone about a “vaccine flush” you take immediately after your shot that cleans out the vaccine. That way, you get shot, get the tick in the box so you can get your papers, but you don’t have the vaccine actually running through your body.
> 
> WHAT?!?!? You won’t take a scientifically researched and backed medicine, but you’re willing to chug some toxic elixir to rid you of the vaccine?!?!
> 
> I suppose this is sort of a stretch to call this an “update”, but has anyone else heard this?


Vaccine Bulimia? Day After Pill?


----------



## Wardo

mhammer said:


> The analogy I like to use is that it is like teaching your army how to draw the enemy flag.
> The spike protein doesn't do anything on its own, any more than the enemy flag does.


Which med school do you teach at ?


----------



## Mikev7305

So the spike doesn't do anything on its own... Now if you search for some data on that, there are studies that show the opposite. The spike does have harmful effects once in circulation. Spikey things attaching to healthy tissues, would create inflammation right? 

Can anyone point me to a study that proves the spike protein itself does no harm? I can find studies saying it does, and fact checkers saying it doesn't. I like to trust studies more, personally.


----------



## mhammer

Mikev7305 said:


> So the spike doesn't do anything on its own... Now if you search for some data on that, there are studies that show the opposite. The spike does have harmful effects once in circulation. Spikey things attaching to healthy tissues, would create inflammation right?
> 
> Can anyone point me to a study that proves the spike protein itself does no harm? I can find studies saying it does, and fact checkers saying it doesn't. I like to trust studies more, personally.


What exactly is your point? Are you trying to say there are things everyone should keep an eye open for, just in case? Or are you trying to say that the vaccines are themselves somehow an entirely unknown quantity and more dangerous than the virus itself?

I've watched enough lists of potential side-effects scrolling down the screen for medications that have been used without incident by millions for some years, to know that NO medication is perfect and without risk. I take a bunch of them myself, and they come with information booklets of the depth we wish Boss pedals did. Is that an argument _*against*_ taking the medications? For some very rare instances, yeah, probably. And that's why one's family doctor is judicious in prescribing them and also relies on the pharmacist to keep an eye out for interactions that have only recently been learned about.

But unless you have miscommunicated or I've read you entirely wrong, the gist of your posts is that the vaccines are dangerous. Have I misunderstood you?


----------



## Mikev7305

My goal is knowledge. I just want to read everything I can about the vaccines. Good or bad. Obviously the vast majority of people have shown no I'll affects. But who knows what 2-3 years will bring once there are 4, 5, 6 boosters in everyone. My point is, nobody knows what could come of it in a few years. Educated guesses are all we got. Just trying to be educated


----------



## mhammer

_On top of_ being vaccinated yourself, or for the purposes of deciding _whether_ to become so? Again, there is a certain flavour to your posts that could stand a little disambiguation.


----------



## Mikev7305

By the way @mhammer I deeply respect your insight on everything discussed on this site. And I thank you for respectfully discussing things that most people on this site (and society) don't want to talk about. Conversations like this don't have to involve name calling and ridicule


----------



## tomee2

mhammer said:


> What exactly is your point? Are you trying to say there are things everyone should keep an eye open for, just in case? Or are you trying to say that the vaccines are themselves somehow an entirely unknown quantity and more dangerous than the virus itself?
> 
> I've watched enough lists of potential side-effects scrolling down the screen for medications that have been used without incident by millions for some years, to know that NO medication is perfect and without risk. I take a bunch of them myself, and they come with information booklets of the depth we wish Boss pedals did. Is that an argument _*against*_ taking the medications? For some very rare instances, yeah, probably. And that's why one's family doctor is judicious in prescribing them and also relies on the pharmacist to keep an eye out for interactions that have only recently been learned about.
> 
> But unless you have miscommunicated or I've read you entirely wrong, the gist of your posts is that the vaccines are dangerous. Have I misunderstood you?


I think he's asking if the vaccine sticks around inside you for a while, possibly causing damage later. And my question is how long is "a while"? A week? A year? 10 years? 
That was my understanding


----------



## Mikev7305

mhammer said:


> _On top of_ being vaccinated yourself, or for the purposes of deciding _whether_ to become so? Again, there is a certain flavour to your posts that could stand a little disambiguation


Should my answer even change the discussion? I'm simply asking "how do these things work?"


----------



## mhammer

As near as we know, the mRNA vaccines do their thing and then get metabolized. What lingers is the immune response to spike proteins. The synthesized spike proteins that elicit the immunity also disappear very soon after vaccination.

Long-term effects? Lots of stuff that enjoys widespread regular use can have long term side effects. The question is how long one wishes to wait for treatment of an acute problem. If you have a brain tumour now, how long do you wait before conclusive evidence that whatever treatment is being proposed has no long-terms side-effects? I'm sure everyone on all sides has their fingers crossed for no long-term side effects, but the fact remains that ICUs are filling up now.

You may have seen ads for medications used to treat TD/tardive dyskinesia. TD was found to be a side-effect of long term use of some anti-psychotic drugs (the T part means that it is late in onset, like being "tardy"). The drugs themselves were found to be effective at treating psychosis, and TD was not identified until people whose condition improved enough to go off the drugs started showing the side effect. Of course, no one could have known _a priori_ how long-term use could have done that, until enough people had been on them long-term. Now, would you rather have at least some relief from being schizophrenic and a risk of movement disorders later down the line, or would you rather avoid the movement problems and live with the psychosis? Are anti-psychotic drugs perfect yet? Nah. Same thing with the vaccines. Is there a potential risk of some issue 5 or 10 years down the line? I suppose, maybe, possibly. The question is whether any unknown potential risk like that is worth taking to avoid debilitating and possible fatal illness* now*, in addition to clogging the health-care system and preventing other people's health from being attended to, or whether one views such remote risks as strong enough justification for avoiding treatment *now*. 

Marriage can end up on the rocks, kids can disappoint you, guitars can lose their magic, professions can end up losing all employment opportunity, and both cars and houses can end up being money pits. If we worried too much about long-term side-effects and the unknown and unexpected risks, we'd never do ANYTHING.

Regulatory agencies put any new treatments through the ringer before granting any sort of approval. They evaluate on the basis of what is known, and also what is NOT known yet. If there are things that need to be known before giving the thumbs up, the thumb stays closed for now. That's why approval was given for some vaccines for adults but not teens, then teens as data came in, and _may_ be extended down to school-children as yet more data comes in. The evaluators and criteria are pretty stringent. That doesn't mean that evaluators always all agree on whether a treatment has met those criteria, within or across jurisdictions. But then, that is also true of Supreme Court judges, who are also all extremely well-versed in assessing whether a case conforms to the law and precedent, but can differ in their evaluation. Even when dealing with the most expert experts, one doesn't always achieve unanimity.


----------



## tdotrob

Literally your family doctor would have this convo with you, put you in touch with the right people to answer these questions if they can’t.

my doctor was able to answer every single question I had and advise me and give me info, links, studies everything I could ever want about these vaccines

why in the fuck would someone ask a message board for guitars and get answers from the pedal guy how vaccines work claiming in effort to get more and any information is the whole problem with this mess. Not saying there is ill intention with the question but sheesh


----------



## RJP110

Mikev7305 said:


> So the spike doesn't do anything on its own... Now if you search for some data on that, there are studies that show the opposite. The spike does have harmful effects once in circulation. Spikey things attaching to healthy tissues, would create inflammation right?
> 
> Can anyone point me to a study that proves the spike protein itself does no harm? I can find studies saying it does, and fact checkers saying it doesn't. I like to trust studies more, personally.


I think this came into question after there was a bio distribution study that showed concentrations of spike in ovaries, testes, bone marrow and a few other places. Initially it was thought that the lipid packaging would keep it in the deltoid where it is then transported to the lymphatic system to mount an immune response. The bio distribution study showed that is not the case. Pretty sure that within a month, it is cleared from the body regardless. But this doesn't necessarily mean that the spike protein is harmful. But I also think it's too soon to say it can't cause negative issues down the road. Just because the spike protein is not a traditional inert viral particle like a traditional vaccine doesn't mean it's harmless. We know that it's the spike protein of CV19 that causes the weird micro emboli and Coagulopathy issues. The manufactured spike is a replicant that has the area that binds locked open. There's documentation that the wild spike protein can shred through the blood brain barrier. That's thought to be the cause for the supreme brain fog with long haulers. There's speculation that the spike protein from the vaccine can do the same thing. Granted, there's a lot of flip flopping on the information but I'd say it's too soon to say that the manufactured spike protein is harmless. This is the reason I feel it should be based on your risk from the virus. I would be VERY hesitant to be vaccinate a 13 year old due to the unknown.


----------



## starjag

John Campbell is the only social media person that I am following these days. So balanced, political but not partisan, and never speculative, even when talking about predictions.



mhammer said:


> The reason why that makes no sense is that mRNA "vaccines" are not simply deactivated pathogens, like many of the traditional vaccines we are accustomed to. So they don't really pose any sort of strain or stress. In this case, it is also known that his rapidly declining health was from Covid symptoms, not from any known reaction to vaccine.
> 
> Trust me, if there was ANY possibility that the vaccination made things worse, public health folks would have been broadcasting this all over the place, telling everybody "As much as we want you to get a shot, do *NOT* go for your shot if you are not feeling well."
> 
> On a different note, the always informative Dr. John Campbell had a nice summary of the state of affairs in Canada the other day. Starts around the 3:59 mark. Makes a VERY persuasive case for vaccination.


----------



## mhammer

tdotrob said:


> Literally your family doctor would have this convo with you, put you in touch with the right people to answer these questions if they can’t.
> 
> my doctor was able to answer every single question I had and advise me and give me info, links, studies everything I could ever want about these vaccines
> 
> why in the fuck would someone ask a message board for guitars and get answers from the pedal guy how vaccines work claiming in effort to get more and any information is the whole problem with this mess. Not saying there is ill intention with the question but sheesh


All true. Sadly, not everyone HAS a family doctor. Way too many are reliant on walk-in clinics. And if they do have some doctor they can see on a regular basis, that doctor may be hard-pressed to take out time to have that conversation.

Heard a gripe from a Quebec resident on the radio this morning, regarding her family doctor being unwilling to have an in-office consult unless the patient had been fully vaxxed. The woman complaining had a single shot, which, at this point in Quebec history would suggest she was reluctant about getting vaxed in the first place. I should add that the woman was complaining that the doctor was quite willing to do over-the-phone consults. We have a pretty good family doctor, and over-the-phone is *all* we've had for 2020 and 2021. If the person is fully vaxxed AND the problem isn't something that could be addressed over the phone, then arrangements can be made for an in-office visit. But she tries to keep these to a blessed minimum. You can understand why no doctor's office wants to have a waiting area cluttered with folks who could pose a risk to each other. And to top it off, no toys for kids and no mags to read.

As for Campbell, what I like about him is that he presents the research itself. I suppose my only gripe is that, in his presentation of data on Canada, he tends to overlook between-province differences. It becomes a bit like treating "Europe" as one big mass. But, that little peeve aside, I find his presentations as objective as one is likely to find these days. Plus it saves one the labour of trying to stay on top of the research when you don't have paid subscriptions to the various services.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> As for Campbell, what I like about him is that he presents the research itself. I suppose my only gripe is that, in his presentation of data on Canada, he tends to overlook between-province differences. It becomes a bit like treating "Europe" as one big mass. But, that little peeve aside, I find his presentations as objective as one is likely to find these days. Plus it saves one the labour of trying to stay on top of the research when you don't have paid subscriptions to the various services.


Dr Campbell does a great job of telling you how it is. Unfortunately the people that need to be listening are listening to the wrong people rather than him.

I've pretty much come to accept that anybody who, at this stage of the game is still saying "I need more information before getting vaxed" is really saying "I'm not going to get vaxed".


----------



## allthumbs56

I'd call this a real success story:









In Portugal, There Is Virtually No One Left to Vaccinate


Portugal is among the most highly vaccinated countries in the world. Vice Adm. Henrique Gouveia e Melo, who led the campaign, said there was a key to his success: Keep politics out of it.




 www.nytimes.com





_"Eight months later, Portugal is among the world’s leaders in vaccinations, with roughly 86 percent of its population of 10.3 million fully vaccinated. About 98 percent of all of those eligible for vaccines — meaning anyone over 12 — have been fully vaccinated, Admiral Gouveia e Melo said."

“In the beginning, we had some 40 percent who were unsure,” Admiral Gouveia e Melo said. Now, according to polls, he said, only 2.2 percent do not want the vaccine. _

Good for them.


----------



## laristotle

_Asked what other countries can do to bolster their own vaccination efforts, he did not hesitate to offer his best advice.
“They need to find people who are not politicians,” he said._


----------



## davetcan

allthumbs56 said:


> I'd call this a real success story:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In Portugal, There Is Virtually No One Left to Vaccinate
> 
> 
> Portugal is among the most highly vaccinated countries in the world. Vice Adm. Henrique Gouveia e Melo, who led the campaign, said there was a key to his success: Keep politics out of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nytimes.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"Eight months later, Portugal is among the world’s leaders in vaccinations, with roughly 86 percent of its population of 10.3 million fully vaccinated. About 98 percent of all of those eligible for vaccines — meaning anyone over 12 — have been fully vaccinated, Admiral Gouveia e Melo said."
> 
> “In the beginning, we had some 40 percent who were unsure,” Admiral Gouveia e Melo said. Now, according to polls, he said, only 2.2 percent do not want the vaccine. _
> 
> Good for them.


And yet Ontario, with a lower percentage of people vaccinated and about 1.5 times the population is doing about the same when it comes to cases and spread.


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> _Asked what other countries can do to bolster their own vaccination efforts, he did not hesitate to offer his best advice.
> “They need to find people who are not politicians,” he said._


Too true. But I think we've seen enough recently to not exactly put our trust in military leaders, either.

Regardless, it seems that Portugal as a nation has been historically more accepting of vaccinations in general. According to the article it stated that only 2.2% of the population are "anti-vaccine". They must have greater faith in their medical people.


----------



## allthumbs56

davetcan said:


> And yet Ontario, with a lower percentage of people vaccinated and about 1.5 times the population is doing about the same when it comes to cases and spread.


Demographics, perhaps? Consider that Portugal is more "open for business" than we are currently?

** edit - I just checked and Ontario is more than ten times larger than Portugal with a population about 1.5 times as large. So - yeah there are comparisons to be had. Can you imagine our numbers if we had 98% vaccinated though?


----------



## davetcan

allthumbs56 said:


> Demographics, perhaps? Consider that Portugal is more "open for business" than we are currently?
> 
> ** edit - I just checked and Ontario is more than ten times larger than Portugal with a population about 1.5 times as large. So - yeah there are comparisons to be had. Can you imagine our numbers if we had 98% vaccinated though?


Taking the opposite spin on the data, Portugal has 98% of it's eligible population vaccinated but even with only 2/3 of the population of Ontario roughly the same number of people are catching the virus. It would be interesting to see if there number of cases drop following booster shots.


----------



## allthumbs56

davetcan said:


> Taking the opposite spin on the data, Portugal has 98% of it's eligible population vaccinated but even with only 2/3 of the population of Ontario roughly the same number of people are catching the virus. It would be interesting to see if there number of cases drop following booster shots.


Canada and Ontario have indeed been doing pretty well. However, FWIW, I've been recording Portugal's numbers since September 6th when they first caught my eye. Since that time they've had 16,526 new cases vs. 74,628 for Canada (not Ontario) and *39 deaths vs. 669* for Canada. They are roughly 1/3rd the population of Canada so I think their numbers stand up as a good example of where we could be in a couple months if we can match their vaccination percentages.


----------



## keto

Long Covid now has a formal definition. Here’s what you need to know


Health experts say long Covid is clearly of public health concern, given the substantial impact it has on society.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## allthumbs56

keto said:


> Long Covid now has a formal definition. Here’s what you need to know
> 
> 
> Health experts say long Covid is clearly of public health concern, given the substantial impact it has on society.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cnbc.com


"Post COVID-19 condition".

Wouldn't it have just been easier for them to call it "Long Covid" and be done with it?


----------



## Paul Running

I can see why a person could become depressed with that condition. The relapsing would be tough coping. I have known people with cancer, survive the first round, go into remission, feeling good and then get attacked again. It takes a strong will to live through that.


----------



## Fred Gifford

allthumbs56 said:


> "Post COVID-19 condition".
> 
> Wouldn't it have just been easier for them to call it "Long Covid" and be done with it?


more good news as usual, gee, how would we ever survive without the doom and gloom media ??


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Canada and Ontario have indeed been doing pretty well. However, FWIW, I've been recording Portugal's numbers since September 6th when they first caught my eye. Since that time they've had 16,526 new cases vs. 74,628 for Canada (not Ontario) and *39 deaths vs. 669* for Canada. They are roughly 1/3rd the population of Canada so I think their numbers stand up as a good example of where we could be in a couple months if we can match their vaccination percentages.


New Zealand thought they had made themselves bulletproof with lockdowns and border-closures, and in fact HAD drastically reduced cases. Unfortunately, that illusion of protection resulted in a negligible vaccination program, because they felt they didn't need it, such that once Delta found its way in, they've had outbreaks. Their PM has quickly gone from hero to zero in the public's view. Manitoba also had a comfortingly low case count initially, as did Alberta, and they both let up a little too soon and are paying the sad price.

Just like campfires, you can't just throw some water in the fire's direction and *assume* it's out because you don't see flames. You have to make *sure* there's no embers, and nothing flammable within distance. The pandemic equivalent is being fully-vaxxed, masked, and distanced until this damn thing actually goes away.


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> "Post COVID-19 condition".
> 
> Wouldn't it have just been easier for them to call it "Long Covid" and be done with it?


I suspect the name is a reflection of the onset of symptoms different from, and after, the initial virus symptoms that led to one seeking medical attention. Hence the "post" part. In a similar vein, "post-polio" syndrome is not called "long polio", and PTSD is not called "long trauma stress". What can I say? Doctors gonna doctor.


----------



## davetcan

The latest Ontario numbers tell a pretty good story.

_Provincewide, officials reported 476 new cases of COVID-19 Wednesday and 10 new deaths. Health Minister Christine Elliott says 141 of those cases are in fully vaccinated people.

There are 156 people in intensive care units due to COVID-19 across Ontario and Elliott says 12 are fully vaccinated._

So of the 476 new cases 30% are fully vaccinated. Not great.

However only 7.7% of people in intensive care are fully vaccinated.

I'll take those odds.


----------



## JBFairthorne

12 of 156 is not 0.77%. It’s 7.7%. Big difference but still encouraging.


----------



## davetcan

JBFairthorne said:


> 12 of 156 is not 0.77%. It’s 7.7%. Big difference but still encouraging.


The mind, she is slipping.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

davetcan said:


> The latest Ontario numbers tell a pretty good story.
> 
> _Provincewide, officials reported 476 new cases of COVID-19 Wednesday and 10 new deaths._


I wouldn't call the story "good", but I would say it's getting a bit better. I guess it's all relative though.


----------



## davetcan

Jim DaddyO said:


> I wouldn't call the story "good", but I would say it's getting a bit better. I guess it's all relative though.


perspective is everything.


----------



## Choo5440

Ugh, the stories of increased poison control calls in Alberta due to ivermectin make me sad. 

Folks, if you are going to take it, please remember. Dosing is calculated based off of kg, not lbs. Humans are not the same as livestock. You (hopefully) do not weigh 1000lbs (454kg). Do NOT take livestock quantities of the drug


----------



## mhammer

"Dosage" has been one of the sources of the opioid crisis, when you think about it. A properly-measured well-titrated dose of any narcotic is not lethal. The problem with the stuff that people are dying from is that they don't know exactly how much of the various substances are in it. You wouldn't think there was much in common between ivermectin poisonings and fentanyl, but there you go. Always know how much you *shouldn't* take of something, and stay well clear of that cliff.


----------



## Paul Running

mhammer said:


> "Dosage" has been one of the sources of the opioid crisis, when you think about it. A properly-measured well-titrated dose of any narcotic is not lethal. The problem with the stuff that people are dying from is that they don't know exactly how much of the various substances are in it. You wouldn't think there was much in common between ivermectin poisonings and fentanyl, but there you go. Always know how much you *shouldn't* take of something, and stay well clear of that cliff.


That's the reason that Keith Richards is still alive today...he always made sure that he knew what he was taking, he preferred the medical grade narcotics.


----------



## allthumbs56

JBFairthorne said:


> 12 of 156 is not 0.77%. It’s 7.7%. Big difference but still encouraging.


We also need to remember that that 7.7% is drawn from a pool that is 4 or more times larger. If you look at the number per 100,000 it becomes far more significant. As per the Ontario website yesterday the number of current cases (including those at home) for unvaccinated was 9.19 per 100,000 vs. 1.52 per 100,000 for the fully vaccinated.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Paul Running said:


> That's the reason that Keith Richards is still alive today...he always made sure that he knew what he was taking, he preferred the medical grade narcotics.


Wait?!?

Keith Richards took drugs?!?


----------



## sulphur

allthumbs56 said:


> We also need to remember that that 7.7% is drawn from a pool that is 4 or more times larger. If you look at the number per 100,000 it becomes far more significant. As per the Ontario website yesterday the number of current cases (including those at home) for unvaccinated was 9.19 per 100,000 vs. 1.52 per 100,000 for the fully vaccinated.


The numbers must be out there, but it would be interesting to know exactly who is in the hospital beds, rather than just the infected.

I know a nurse in Manitoba that just posted their stats yesterday and those in the overloaded ICUs were 100% unvaccinated.


----------



## allthumbs56

sulphur said:


> The numbers must be out there, but it would be interesting to know exactly who is in the hospital beds, rather than just the infected.
> 
> I know a nurse in Manitoba that just posted their stats yesterday and those in the overloaded ICUs were 100% unvaccinated.


Ontario is kind of posting that data:






Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue







covid-19.ontario.ca





If you scroll down to the first pie charts they provide a summary of patients and their vaccination status.


----------



## Jim Wellington

Some info for those unfortunate enough to become infected regardless of vaccination status...The more options for treatment the better I say. 









Aspirin lowers risk of COVID: New findings support preliminary trial


The treatment reduced the risk of reaching mechanical ventilation by 44%. ICU admissions were lower by 43%, and an overall in-hospital mortality saw a 47% decrease.




www.jpost.com


----------



## allthumbs56

A little fun with numbers for a Friday.

So, based on todays published numbers (Worldometer & CTV Vaccinations) at the current rate, the US will reach a Covid "saturation" in 307 days. Canada will reach this "saturation" in 198 days.

"Saturation", by my definition, is the point where every citizen is either fully jabbed or has caught Covid (and lived or died). Essentially, I added together the # of jabs and new cases today for each country, subtracted the current total cases from the total population (leaving the population not yet vaxxed or infected) and did a little division on that.

So, what that means is that seven months from now we will all have been vaccinated - or caught Covid.

Choose your poison  

It's a slow day 😕


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim Wellington said:


> Some info for those unfortunate enough to become infected regardless of vaccination status...The more options for treatment the better I say.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Aspirin lowers risk of COVID: New findings support preliminary trial
> 
> 
> The treatment reduced the risk of reaching mechanical ventilation by 44%. ICU admissions were lower by 43%, and an overall in-hospital mortality saw a 47% decrease.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.jpost.com


Interesting. I'm double-jabbed AND I take my "baby aspirins" daily. I'm feeling invincible! 😎


----------



## Paul Running

Lot of uses for aspirin, low cost, mature medicine that could save your life...good for what ails you.


----------



## allthumbs56

Paul Running said:


> Lot of uses for aspirin, low cost, mature medicine that could save your life...good for what ails you.


Much like butter and eggs, aspirin is still going through it's "bad for you" phase. Brought to you by the makers of Tylenol


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## sulphur

allthumbs56 said:


> Ontario is kind of posting that data:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid-19.ontario.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you scroll down to the first pie charts they provide a summary of patients and their vaccination status.


There is a chart for those hospitalized, thanks for that.


----------



## starjag

That would be 4/24/2022. Not surprisingly the numbers add up to 16, one of the most controversial numerology numbers. Ask me for a link if you dare to find the truth about this so-called saturation conspiracy.

In all seriousness, it is a cool calculation. I am glad the antivirals and other potential treatments are coming out. They will certaibly help alliviate some suffering, regardless of the poison of choice. And also hoping that the vaccine continues to be useful whatever new variant comes along.

If Delta is here to stay (can we even tell that?), does anyone know if the vaccines are going to be revised to better target Delta? Can you get a Delta booster on top of the original dose? Not really expecting definitive answers, I was just typing along 



allthumbs56 said:


> A little fun with numbers for a Friday.
> 
> So, based on todays published numbers (Worldometer & CTV Vaccinations) at the current rate, the US will reach a Covid "saturation" in 307 days. Canada will reach this "saturation" in 198 days.
> 
> "Saturation", by my definition, is the point where every citizen is either fully jabbed or has caught Covid (and lived or died). Essentially, I added together the # of jabs and new cases today for each country, subtracted the current total cases from the total population (leaving the population not yet vaxxed or infected) and did a little division on that.
> 
> So, what that means is that seven months from now we will all have been vaccinated - or caught Covid.
> 
> Choose your poison
> 
> It's a slow day 😕


----------



## Guitar101

If you have any issues with Aspirin, you could try Ivermectin to alleviate the effects of the Aspirin or you could just get the vaccine.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Ok,... I think it's time for a little interlude here on the 'All Serious All The Time' Covid thread. Sit back, relax and remove your 'Doom And Gloom Cap',... and or 'Glasses' for a moment while viewing some good old fashioned satirical humour,... if at all possible. 
"I really miss the days where jokes weren’t a reality and where reality wasn’t a joke" - Lucas


----------



## Midnight Rider

Guitar101 said:


> If you have any issues with Aspirin, you could try Ivermectin to alleviate the effects of the Aspirin or you could just get the vaccine.


Yeah!,... fuck Joe Rogan,... his Ivermectin and natural immunity!


----------



## Jim Wellington

Guitar101 said:


> If you have any issues with Aspirin, you could try Ivermectin to alleviate the effects of the Aspirin or you could just get the vaccine.


...Or if you`ve already been vaccinated and get sick anyways, you have some alternative medicines to try in hopes that you don`t have to head to the hospital to visit with Nurse Ratchet and the ventilator gang. 

Just a friendly thought...


----------



## laristotle

Midnight Rider said:


> Ok,... I think it's time for a little interlude here on the 'All Serious All The Time' Covid thread. Sit back, relax and remove your 'Doom And Gloom Cap',... and or 'Glasses' for a moment while viewing some good old fashioned satirical humour,... if at all possible.
> "I really miss the days where jokes weren’t a reality and where reality wasn’t a joke" - Lucas





Midnight Rider said:


> Yeah!,... fuck Joe Rogan,... his Ivermectin and natural immunity!


Where do I line up for my dose of Soma?


----------



## Midnight Rider

laristotle said:


> Where do I line up for my dose of Soma?


Somawhere over the 🌈?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Russell Brand has an interesting perspective on vaccine hesitancy and how the issues surrounding it are more complex than what is on the surface. That, and reaction to it and the people around the issue, including the media.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> Russell Brand has an interesting perspective on vaccine hesitancy and how the issues surrounding it are more complex than what is on the surface. That, and reaction to it and the people around the issue, including the media.


I'm not sure that I give a damn about the "complexities of vaccination". If "putting my life on the line" is the viewpoint of the hesitant then I'd say that 80% of the population, in the face of those same "complexities", have already manned=up and "put their lives on the line" for their fellow man - including those that refuse to step up.

Don't want to get vaccinated? Don't. But don't expect your feelings or fears or excuses to mean anything to me.


----------



## Jim Wellington

allthumbs56 said:


> But don't expect your feelings or fears or excuses to mean anything to me.


That works both ways...

I already "took one for the team" a few decades ago, and it took me 2 decades to return to normal health.

I could give a rats ass regarding any expectations you have, as you`ve been one of the most "Covid -possessed " individuals i`ve had the misfortune of encountring on the net.

The more you post the more this becomes obvious. 

I really hope you get a chance to perform publically again soon, as it appears you really do need alot of public attention.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim Wellington said:


> That works both ways...
> 
> *I already "took one for the team" a few decades ago, and it took me 2 decades to return to normal health.*
> 
> I could give a rats ass regarding any expectations you have, as you`ve been one of the most "Covid -possessed " individuals i`ve had the misfortune of encountring on the net.
> 
> The more you post the more this becomes obvious.
> 
> I really hope you get a chance to perform publically again soon, as it appears you really do need alot of public attention.


Then I'm sure that you qualify for the medical exemption. Why have I touched your nerve?


----------



## zztomato

Jim Wellington said:


> you`ve been one of the most "Covid -possessed " individuals i`ve had the misfortune of encountring on the net.
> 
> The more you post the more this becomes obvious.


Jim, I think there are a lot of Covid possessed on this thread, yourself included. In fact I seem to recall that in almost every covid or vaccine thread created on GC, you post a good amount on each. You clearly feel a need to post your opinions. A less covid possessed person might just let it go.

Personally I find the obsession pretty understandable. No matter where we all stand on vaccines etc, this thing is really f**king with our lives.
You could just put the thread on ignore.


----------



## tonewoody

zztomato said:


> .
> You could just put the thread on ignore.


What? And miss out on the circle jerk?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Wow, I didn't expect this kind of reaction for a video who's main gist is to be kind. Some advice that I could take myself sometimes.

Civilization has become so uncivilized.


----------



## Wardo

zztomato said:


> ... No matter where we all stand on vaccines etc, this thing is really f**king with our lives.


Damn right.


----------



## Wardo

Jim DaddyO said:


> Civilization has become so uncivilized.


Yeah, but we got sunny ways now so civilization is old school and no longer needed .. lol


----------



## Midnight Rider

Jim DaddyO said:


> Russell Brand has an interesting perspective on vaccine hesitancy and how the issues surrounding it are more complex than what is on the surface. That, and reaction to it and the people around the issue, including the media.


Wow!,... what a refreshing 20 minutes. Someone very well spoken and who has an ability of exercising common sense and critical thinking. He masterfully dissects and exposes Don Lemon along with the the CNN agendas. Why anyone would waste their valuable time watching such news reporting rubbish has always puzzled me. Good to see Russel Brand have the courage to take them to task. I had to dig deep for the will power just to watch the clips that Brand included in his video of the the two Stooges,... Don Lemon(suitable last name) and Chris 'Fredo' Cuomo,... don't know if I could have watched the video at all if the third Stooge Anderson Cooper was included.

Huh, just thinking,... how's that brother of Fredo doing lately?,... Andrew 'The Snake' Cuomo,... recent former Governor of New York, lol.

These people are all the same,... different suit but cut from the same mould.

Go get em' Russell.


----------



## HighNoon

Vaccination; the art of introducing a vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease.

Vaccine; A product that stimulate's a person's immune system to produce immunity to a specific disease.

Okay, so what do we have presented to us, not that long ago, to get to 'herd immunity'. Something, whose efficacy, begins to wane, at the 4-6 month mark, doesn't protect you from catching the disease (although you were told it would), and you can still transmit the disease. Somehow that doesn't match up with the meaning of the word vaccine.

Why worry....if they can change the meaning of the word 'case' (based on a test that is not a diagnostic for the disease), they can change the meaning of the word 'vaccine'. Ka-ching Ka-ching.


----------



## HighNoon

And since we're on the topic of changing the meaning of words here's another of my own making.....feel free to use it.

Breakthrough case......Vaccine failure. Has a nice ring to it.


----------



## allthumbs56

HighNoon said:


> And since we're on the topic of changing the meaning of words here's another of my own making.....feel free to use it.
> 
> Breakthrough case......Vaccine failure. Has a nice ring to it.


So far the numbers say a vaccinated person is 8 times less likely to catch or pass on the virus. Also 25 times less likely to end up in the hospital. Not the silver bullet we'd hoped for - but not a failure either. Far better than doing nothing and hoping that the problem will somehow go away..


----------



## HighNoon

allthumbs56 said:


> So far the numbers say a vaccinated person is 8 times less likely to catch or pass on the virus. Also 25 times less likely to end up in the hospital. Not the silver bullet we'd hoped for - but not a failure either. Far better than doing nothing and hoping that the problem will somehow go away..


Doing nothing? Early treatment is the key. Since when in medical history that you remember, have you been told to go home because your blood oxygen level isn't quite low enough, and come back later when you're really sick. A minimal of 80% of hospital admissions could be eliminated by early treatment. That would be doing something positive.


----------



## HighNoon

In other good news, that wasn't mentioned in another thread (probably because it was shut down), Ted Nugent recovered from Covid 19, and he was into the sixth or seventh day of symptoms. And how did he recover? He was given the FLCCC treatment....monoclonal antibodies, fluvoxamine, prednisone, ivermectin (yes, he has horse blood in him), large dose vitamin C intravenously and a few of the other usual suspects. And he's old.....and he lived. Rock on Ted.


----------



## allthumbs56

HighNoon said:


> Doing nothing? Early treatment is the key. Since when in medical history that you remember, have you been told to go home because your blood oxygen level isn't quite low enough, and come back later when you're really sick. A minimal of 80% of hospital admissions could be eliminated by early treatment. That would be doing something positive.


I can't disagree with that but I think preventative maintenance is more important.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Contracted covid-19 in February of 2020. I have a serious auto-immune disorder(Dermatomyositis) despite this my innate and adaptive immune systems obviously were still able to produce an adequate amount of anti-bodies that protected me from sinking into a deep state of infection that required hospitalization. According to the attached article it would appear that I may indeed have long term protection with antibody producing cells that could potentially last a lifetime. I should also mention that I have been leading a very healthy lifestyle for decades which includes proper diet, exercise and naturopathic approaches to health. This may have been the difference during my Covid infection that allowed me to pull through after feeling ill on and off for a month or so. Along with the aforementioned auto-immune disorder I have a couple other health issues putting me in the category of someone with co-morbidities. Also have had two previous close brushes with death unrelated to Covid,... so, nothing really rattles my cage anymore when it comes to my mortality,... or anything else for that matter. 

Good news: Mild COVID-19 induces lasting antibody protection | Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis
*Good news: Mild COVID-19 induces lasting antibody protection*
People who have had mild illness develop antibody-producing cells that can last lifetime
by Tamara Bhandari•May 24, 2021







GETTY IMAGES
People who have had a mild case of COVID-19 are left with long-term antibody protection against future disease, according to a study from researchers at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis.
Months after recovering from mild cases of COVID-19, people still have immune cells in their body pumping out antibodies against the virus that causes COVID-19, according to a study from researchers at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis. Such cells could persist for a lifetime, churning out antibodies all the while.
The findings, published May 24 in the journal Nature, suggest that mild cases of COVID-19 leave those infected with lasting antibody protection and that repeated bouts of illness are likely to be uncommon.
“Last fall, there were reports that antibodies wane quickly after infection with the virus that causes COVID-19, and mainstream media interpreted that to mean that immunity was not long-lived,” said senior author Ali Ellebedy, PhD, an associate professor of pathology & immunology, of medicine and of molecular microbiology. “But that’s a misinterpretation of the data. It’s normal for antibody levels to go down after acute infection, but they don’t go down to zero; they plateau. Here, we found antibody-producing cells in people 11 months after first symptoms. These cells will live and produce antibodies for the rest of people’s lives. That’s strong evidence for long-lasting immunity.”

During a viral infection, antibody-producing immune cells rapidly multiply and circulate in the blood, driving antibody levels sky-high. Once the infection is resolved, most such cells die off, and blood antibody levels drop. A small population of antibody-producing cells, called long-lived plasma cells, migrate to the bone marrow and settle in, where they continually secrete low levels of antibodies into the bloodstream to help guard against another encounter with the virus.
The key to figuring out whether COVID-19 leads to long-lasting antibody protection, Ellebedy realized, lies in the bone marrow. To find out whether those who have recovered from mild cases of COVID-19 harbor long-lived plasma cells that produce antibodies specifically targeted to SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, Ellebedy teamed up with co-author Iskra Pusic, MD, an associate professor of medicine. Ellebedy already was working with co-authors Rachel Presti, MD, PhD, an associate professor of medicine, and Jane O’Halloran, MD, PhD, an assistant professor of medicine, on a project to track antibody levels in blood samples from COVID-19 survivors.
The team already had enrolled 77 participants who were giving blood samples at three-month intervals starting about a month after initial infection. Most participants had had mild cases of COVID-19; only six had been hospitalized.
With Pusic’s help, Ellebedy and colleagues obtained bone marrow from 18 of the participants seven or eight months after their initial infections. Five of them came back four months later and provided a second bone marrow sample. An additional person who had recovered from COVID-19 gave bone marrow separately. For comparison, the scientists also obtained bone marrow from 11 people who had never had COVID-19.
As expected, antibody levels in the blood of the COVID-19 participants dropped quickly in the first few months after infection and then mostly leveled off, with some antibodies detectable even 11 months after infection. Further, 15 of the 19 bone marrow samples from people who had had COVID-19 contained antibody-producing cells specifically targeting the virus that causes COVID-19. Such cells could still be found four months later in the five people who came back to provide a second bone-marrow sample. None of the 11 people who had never had COVID-19 had such antibody-producing cells in their bone marrow.
“People with mild cases of COVID-19 clear the virus from their bodies two to three weeks after infection, so there would be no virus driving an active immune response seven or 11 months after infection,” Ellebedy said. “These cells are not dividing. They are quiescent, just sitting in the bone marrow and secreting antibodies. They have been doing that ever since the infection resolved, and they will continue doing that indefinitely.”
People who were infected and never had symptoms also may be left with long-lasting immunity, the researchers speculated. But it’s yet to be investigated whether those who endured more severe infection would be protected against a future bout of disease, they said.
“It could go either way,” said first author Jackson Turner, PhD, an instructor in pathology & immunology. “Inflammation plays a major role in severe COVID-19, and too much inflammation can lead to defective immune responses. But on the other hand, the reason why people get really sick is often because they have a lot of virus in their bodies, and having a lot of virus around can lead to a good immune response. So it’s not clear. We need to replicate the study in people with moderate to severe infections to understand whether they are likely to be protected from reinfection.”
Ellebedy and colleagues now are studying whether vaccination also induces long-lived antibody-producing cells.

Turner JS, Kim W, Kalaidina E, Goss CW, Rauseo AM, Schmitz AJ, Hansen L, Haile A, Klebert MK, Pusic I, O’Halloran JA, Presti RM, Ellebedy AH. SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans. Nature. May 24, 2021. DOI: 10.1038/s41586-021-03647-4
This study was supported by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), grant numbers U01AI1419901, U01AI150747 and 5T32CA009547 and contract numbers HHSN272201400006C, HHSN272201400008C and 75N93019C00051; the Norwegian Research Council, grant number 271160; and the University of Oslo’s National Graduate School in Infection Biology and Antimicrobials, grant number 249062. This study utilized samples obtained from the Washington University School of Medicine’s COVID-19 biorepository supported by the NIH/National Center for Advancing Translational Sciences, grant number UL1 TR002345.
Washington University School of Medicine’s 1,500 faculty physicians also are the medical staff of Barnes-Jewish and St. Louis Children’s hospitals. The School of Medicine is a leader in medical research, teaching and patient care, consistently ranking among the top medical schools in the nation by U.S. News & World Report. Through its affiliations with Barnes-Jewish and St. Louis Children’s hospitals, the School of Medicine is linked to BJC HealthCare.


----------



## mhammer

"_But it’s yet to be investigated whether those who endured more severe infection would be protected against a future bout of disease, they said. _"

The $64,000 question. At one level, the report is good news, but evidence of an immune response is not the same as evidence of being effectively bulletproof, especially against newer variants that had not emerged at the time of the study. As I've noted here on many an occasion, "immunity" is not all-or-none. It is a graded phenomenon. So one could retain sufficient protection against a light infection of a virus that did not produce much viral load very quickly, but not against a variant that replicates quickly. That's the problem.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> "_But it’s yet to be investigated whether those who endured more severe infection would be protected against a future bout of disease, they said. _"
> 
> The $64,000 question. At one level, the report is good news, but evidence of an immune response is not the same as evidence of being effectively bulletproof, especially against newer variants that had not emerged at the time of the study. As I've noted here on many an occasion, "immunity" is not all-or-none. It is a graded phenomenon. So one could retain sufficient protection against a light infection of a virus that did not produce much viral load very quickly, but not against a variant that replicates quickly. That's the problem.


Getting some news that is cautiously optimistic is better than a lot of other news we have heard. It's what is needed now and then. Hope is better than dispair.


----------



## allthumbs56

Midnight Rider said:


> Contracted covid-19 in February of 2020. I have a serious auto-immune disorder(Dermatomyositis) despite this my innate and adaptive immune systems obviously were still able to produce an adequate amount of anti-bodies that protected me from sinking into a deep state of infection that required hospitalization. According to the attached article it would appear that I may indeed have long term protection with antibody producing cells that could potentially last a lifetime. I should also mention that I have been leading a very healthy lifestyle for decades which includes proper diet, exercise and naturopathic approaches to health. This may have been the difference during my Covid infection that allowed me to pull through after feeling ill on and off for a month or so. Along with the aforementioned auto-immune disorder I have a couple other health issues putting me in the category of someone with co-morbidities. Also have had two previous close brushes with death unrelated to Covid,... so, nothing really rattles my cage anymore when it comes to my mortality,... or anything else for that matter.
> 
> Good news: Mild COVID-19 induces lasting antibody protection | Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis
> *Good news: Mild COVID-19 induces lasting antibody protection*
> People who have had mild illness develop antibody-producing cells that can last lifetime
> by Tamara Bhandari•May 24, 2021
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GETTY IMAGES
> People who have had a mild case of COVID-19 are left with long-term antibody protection against future disease, according to a study from researchers at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis.
> Months after recovering from mild cases of COVID-19, people still have immune cells in their body pumping out antibodies against the virus that causes COVID-19, according to a study from researchers at Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis. Such cells could persist for a lifetime, churning out antibodies all the while.
> The findings, published May 24 in the journal Nature, suggest that mild cases of COVID-19 leave those infected with lasting antibody protection and that repeated bouts of illness are likely to be uncommon.
> “Last fall, there were reports that antibodies wane quickly after infection with the virus that causes COVID-19, and mainstream media interpreted that to mean that immunity was not long-lived,” said senior author Ali Ellebedy, PhD, an associate professor of pathology & immunology, of medicine and of molecular microbiology. “But that’s a misinterpretation of the data. It’s normal for antibody levels to go down after acute infection, but they don’t go down to zero; they plateau. Here, we found antibody-producing cells in people 11 months after first symptoms. These cells will live and produce antibodies for the rest of people’s lives. That’s strong evidence for long-lasting immunity.”
> 
> During a viral infection, antibody-producing immune cells rapidly multiply and circulate in the blood, driving antibody levels sky-high. Once the infection is resolved, most such cells die off, and blood antibody levels drop. A small population of antibody-producing cells, called long-lived plasma cells, migrate to the bone marrow and settle in, where they continually secrete low levels of antibodies into the bloodstream to help guard against another encounter with the virus.
> The key to figuring out whether COVID-19 leads to long-lasting antibody protection, Ellebedy realized, lies in the bone marrow. To find out whether those who have recovered from mild cases of COVID-19 harbor long-lived plasma cells that produce antibodies specifically targeted to SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, Ellebedy teamed up with co-author Iskra Pusic, MD, an associate professor of medicine. Ellebedy already was working with co-authors Rachel Presti, MD, PhD, an associate professor of medicine, and Jane O’Halloran, MD, PhD, an assistant professor of medicine, on a project to track antibody levels in blood samples from COVID-19 survivors.
> The team already had enrolled 77 participants who were giving blood samples at three-month intervals starting about a month after initial infection. Most participants had had mild cases of COVID-19; only six had been hospitalized.
> With Pusic’s help, Ellebedy and colleagues obtained bone marrow from 18 of the participants seven or eight months after their initial infections. Five of them came back four months later and provided a second bone marrow sample. An additional person who had recovered from COVID-19 gave bone marrow separately. For comparison, the scientists also obtained bone marrow from 11 people who had never had COVID-19.
> As expected, antibody levels in the blood of the COVID-19 participants dropped quickly in the first few months after infection and then mostly leveled off, with some antibodies detectable even 11 months after infection. Further, 15 of the 19 bone marrow samples from people who had had COVID-19 contained antibody-producing cells specifically targeting the virus that causes COVID-19. Such cells could still be found four months later in the five people who came back to provide a second bone-marrow sample. None of the 11 people who had never had COVID-19 had such antibody-producing cells in their bone marrow.
> “People with mild cases of COVID-19 clear the virus from their bodies two to three weeks after infection, so there would be no virus driving an active immune response seven or 11 months after infection,” Ellebedy said. “These cells are not dividing. They are quiescent, just sitting in the bone marrow and secreting antibodies. They have been doing that ever since the infection resolved, and they will continue doing that indefinitely.”
> People who were infected and never had symptoms also may be left with long-lasting immunity, the researchers speculated. But it’s yet to be investigated whether those who endured more severe infection would be protected against a future bout of disease, they said.
> “It could go either way,” said first author Jackson Turner, PhD, an instructor in pathology & immunology. “Inflammation plays a major role in severe COVID-19, and too much inflammation can lead to defective immune responses. But on the other hand, the reason why people get really sick is often because they have a lot of virus in their bodies, and having a lot of virus around can lead to a good immune response. So it’s not clear. We need to replicate the study in people with moderate to severe infections to understand whether they are likely to be protected from reinfection.”
> Ellebedy and colleagues now are studying whether vaccination also induces long-lived antibody-producing cells.
> 
> Turner JS, Kim W, Kalaidina E, Goss CW, Rauseo AM, Schmitz AJ, Hansen L, Haile A, Klebert MK, Pusic I, O’Halloran JA, Presti RM, Ellebedy AH. SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans. Nature. May 24, 2021. DOI: 10.1038/s41586-021-03647-4
> This study was supported by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), grant numbers U01AI1419901, U01AI150747 and 5T32CA009547 and contract numbers HHSN272201400006C, HHSN272201400008C and 75N93019C00051; the Norwegian Research Council, grant number 271160; and the University of Oslo’s National Graduate School in Infection Biology and Antimicrobials, grant number 249062. This study utilized samples obtained from the Washington University School of Medicine’s COVID-19 biorepository supported by the NIH/National Center for Advancing Translational Sciences, grant number UL1 TR002345.
> Washington University School of Medicine’s 1,500 faculty physicians also are the medical staff of Barnes-Jewish and St. Louis Children’s hospitals. The School of Medicine is a leader in medical research, teaching and patient care, consistently ranking among the top medical schools in the nation by U.S. News & World Report. Through its affiliations with Barnes-Jewish and St. Louis Children’s hospitals, the School of Medicine is linked to BJC HealthCare.


Can you be tested for your level of immunity? If you get a pass on that then that should be considered just as effective and you should get a "bye" on being jabbed and get the same "certificate" as anybody else who's been vaccinated.


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> Can you be tested for your level of immunity? If you get a pass on that then that should be considered as effective and you should get a "bye" on being jabbed and get the same "certificate" as anybody else who's been vaccinated.


That would make sense, however, from what I've been reading, that won't happen. Even federal employees that work from home are mandated to get jabbed.  😕


----------



## starjag

I know many people ready to fire up the ovens that will process the un-pure.



Jim DaddyO said:


> Wow, I didn't expect this kind of reaction for a video who's main gist is to be kind. Some advice that I could take myself sometimes.
> 
> Civilization has become so uncivilized.


----------



## starjag

The same will hold for people that got dosed with something developed for the alpha (or wild?) variant using the spike protein only. We got lucky with Delta, that’s for sure. What happened to the hypothesis of more contagious but less lethal future variants? Is there a more contagious _and_ more lethal working hypothesis? If so, that would be very scary. The future is hard to predict indeed.



mhammer said:


> "_But it’s yet to be investigated whether those who endured more severe infection would be protected against a future bout of disease, they said. _"
> 
> The $64,000 question. At one level, the report is good news, but evidence of an immune response is not the same as evidence of being effectively bulletproof, especially against newer variants that had not emerged at the time of the study. As I've noted here on many an occasion, "immunity" is not all-or-none. It is a graded phenomenon. So one could retain sufficient protection against a light infection of a virus that did not produce much viral load very quickly, but not against a variant that replicates quickly. That's the problem.


----------



## HighNoon

mhammer said:


> "_But it’s yet to be investigated whether those who endured more severe infection would be protected against a future bout of disease, they said. _"
> 
> The $64,000 question. At one level, the report is good news, but evidence of an immune response is not the same as evidence of being effectively bulletproof, especially against newer variants that had not emerged at the time of the study. As I've noted here on many an occasion, "immunity" is not all-or-none. It is a graded phenomenon. So one could retain sufficient protection against a light infection of a virus that did not produce much viral load very quickly, but not against a variant that replicates quickly. That's the problem.


The problem is not whether those who have had the infection are more or less resilient to future variants; the problem is mass inoculation during a pandemic with a 'leaky' vaccine, which will drive the evolution of the virus, creating the dreaded escape mutants, which will run rampant in our society.


----------



## tdotrob

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-vaccine-effectiveness-data-delayed-doses-mixing-matching-covid-19-vaccines-1.6205993


----------



## HighNoon

starjag said:


> The same will hold for people that got dosed with something developed for the alpha (or wild?) variant using the spike protein only. We got lucky with Delta, that’s for sure. What happened to the hypothesis of more contagious but less lethal future variants? Is there a more contagious _and_ more lethal working hypothesis? If so, that would be very scary. The future is hard to predict indeed.


Here's an interesting paper on what happens with a 'leaky' vaccine, like the one we are being given now.








Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens


Could some vaccines drive the evolution of more virulent pathogens? Conventional wisdom is that natural selection will remove highly lethal pathogens if host death greatly reduces transmission. Vaccines that keep hosts alive but still allow transmission ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





It's not too difficult to extrapolate the potential similarities between Marek's disease in domesticated animals, and Sars CoV2 in humans, and the possibilities of jumping species like other Avian Flus.

Here's a paper on how mRNA vaccines work. Some of the reading can be tedious (yes you should be practicing your scales) but there are rewards for knowledge for it's own sake.








mRNA vaccines for COVID-19: what, why and how


The Coronavirus disease-19 (COVID-19) pandemic, caused by severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus -2 (SARS-CoV-2), has impacted human lives in the most profound ways with millions of infections and deaths. Scientists and pharmaceutical companies ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov





Of special interest is this from the study....... In addition, we highlight the key strategies in designing mRNA vaccines to maximize the expression of immunogens and avoid intrinsic innate immune response.

This refers to how they change the immune response to get the jab into you (so the body doesn't see the substance as a foreign invader....which is what it is trained to do). Of subsequent interest is the possible relation to seeing an increase in shingles, Epstein Barr virus, and fast spreading cancers. Mostly word of mouth so far, reports from physicians in different countries, but a potential red flag.









Herpes zoster following BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 vaccination in patients with autoimmune inflammatory rheumatic diseases: a case series


AbstractObjectives. As global vaccination campaigns against COVID-19 disease commence, vaccine safety needs to be closely assessed. The safety profile of mRNA-b




academic.oup.com


----------



## Mikev7305

State of India declares themselves covid free. 199 active cases with a population of 241 million people. 5.8% vaccinated. Early treatment works best. 



https://www.educationviews.org/india-state-of-241-million-people-declared-covid-free-after-government-promotes-ivermectin/


----------



## laristotle

Mikev7305 said:


> State of India declares themselves covid free. 199 active cases with a population of 241 million people. 5.8% vaccinated. Early treatment works best.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.educationviews.org/india-state-of-241-million-people-declared-covid-free-after-government-promotes-ivermectin/


_How is it that Uttar Pradesh has fully recovered from COVID despite the fact that only 5.8% of its population has been fully vaccinated, compared to the USA that has 54% fully vaccinated?

The answer is likely because of the government’s early use and distribution of ivermectin to its citizens.

One would think the World Health Organization, Big Pharma, the mainstream media, and Dr. Anthony Fauci would be overjoyed by this development that ivermectin is undoubtedly saving lives.

But don’t count on them celebrating that, because that would hurt their bottom lines of profit and power from their experimental and ineffective vaccines.

That’s why they’ve been melting down over ivermectin after Joe Rogan successfully used it to treat his COVID infection earlier this month._


----------



## keto

Mikev7305 said:


> State of India declares themselves covid free. 199 active cases with a population of 241 million people. 5.8% vaccinated. Early treatment works best.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.educationviews.org/india-state-of-241-million-people-declared-covid-free-after-government-promotes-ivermectin/





laristotle said:


> _How is it that Uttar Pradesh has fully recovered from COVID despite the fact that only 5.8% of its population has been fully vaccinated, compared to the USA that has 54% fully vaccinated?
> 
> The answer is likely because of the government’s early use and distribution of ivermectin to its citizens.
> 
> One would think the World Health Organization, Big Pharma, the mainstream media, and Dr. Anthony Fauci would be overjoyed by this development that ivermectin is undoubtedly saving lives.
> 
> But don’t count on them celebrating that, because that would hurt their bottom lines of profit and power from their experimental and ineffective vaccines.
> 
> That’s why they’ve been melting down over ivermectin after Joe Rogan successfully used it to treat his COVID infection earlier this month._



Sorry boys, fake news. The 'By Infowars' didn't set off any alarms? Can't find a single source confirming.

Looks like they've just stopped reporting. Which did happen.








Uttar Pradesh coronavirus information and stats


Real-time Coronavirus (COVID-19) cases tracker and resources to keep you safe.




corona.help


----------



## allthumbs56

Mikev7305 said:


> State of India declares themselves covid free. 199 active cases with a population of 241 million people. 5.8% vaccinated. Early treatment works best.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.educationviews.org/india-state-of-241-million-people-declared-covid-free-after-government-promotes-ivermectin/


Not quite .......








Nearly 50% of Uttar Pradesh Covid-free now: Govt | Lucknow News - Times of India


The state government on Wednesday claimed that the deadly novel coronavirus has now been eliminated from nearly 50% of UP with 37 districts of the sta




timesofindia.indiatimes.com


----------



## Mikev7305

Stopped reporting maybe because it is no longer a threat? Funny how the thing in common with the countries that are doing well on the covid front all seem to be awful at counting. Nothing to do with their protocols? Looks like by those charts on that site that they were at like 700 active cases and dropping around august 6 then all of a sudden there's 1.6 million active cases. Nothing fishy there


----------



## allthumbs56

Mikev7305 said:


> Stopped reporting maybe because it is no longer a threat? Funny how the thing in common with the countries that are doing well on the covid front all seem to be awful at counting. Nothing to do with their protocols? Looks like by those charts on that site that they were at like 700 active cases and dropping around august 6 then all of a sudden there's 1.6 million active cases. Nothing fishy there


Data is data. It is collected and reported by people who are prone to misinterpret and make mistakes. And then there are countries well-equipped to process and summarize their data and those that are not. Worst of all are the countries that play with their data for political reasons - how believable is it that China only had 12 cases and zero deaths yesterday?


----------



## Fred Gifford

I don't get this, new rules as of today say that I (fully vaccinated) can travel to the USA without having to produce a Negative Covid test and yet if I cross the Border bridge, pull a U-turn and try to re-enter Canada 30 seconds later I will be refused entry without producing a negative COVID test, I kid you not ... sometimes I am so embarrassed to be a Canucker


----------



## SWLABR

Fred Gifford said:


> I don't get this, new rules as of today say that I (fully vaccinated) can travel to the USA without having to produce a Negative Covid test and yet if I cross the Border bridge, pull a U-turn and try to re-enter Canada 30 seconds later I will be refused entry without producing a negative COVID test, I kid you not ... sometimes I am so embarrassed to be a Canucker


I didn't think that was today... I thought Nov 1 to get into US without a test.


----------



## laristotle

My SiL came up for a week for the T-day weekend.
They had their test/paperwork, but were still pulled in for a 'random' test.
The agent actually told her that 'they have a quota to meet'.


----------



## tdotrob

Ivermectin: How false science created a Covid 'miracle' drug


Thousands worldwide have taken ivermectin to fight Covid. But what's the evidence?



www.bbc.com


----------



## tdotrob

Merck Statement on Ivermectin use During the COVID-19 Pandemic - Merck.com


KENILWORTH, N.J., Feb. 4, 2021 – Merck (NYSE: MRK), known as MSD outside the United States and Canada, today affirmed its position regarding use of ivermectin during the COVID-19 pandemic. Company scientists continue to carefully examine the findings of all available and emerging studies of...




www.merck.com


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Fred Gifford said:


> I don't get this, new rules as of today say that I (fully vaccinated) can travel to the USA without having to produce a Negative Covid test and yet if I cross the Border bridge, pull a U-turn and try to re-enter Canada 30 seconds later I will be refused entry without producing a negative COVID test, I kid you not ... sometimes I am so embarrassed to be a Canucker


What’s not to get? Two different countries, each with the power to set their own rules as to who is allowed to enter their borders.

Based on the alarming numbers south of that border, I see the reasoning behind Canada requiring a negative test to enter. The fact the US doesn’t? That’s on them.


----------



## Mikev7305

tdotrob said:


> Ivermectin: How false science created a Covid 'miracle' drug
> 
> 
> Thousands worldwide have taken ivermectin to fight Covid. But what's the evidence?
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


Then here's Dr John Campbell "debunking" the "debunkers"






There was some praise from the pro vax crowd a while back about Dr John Campbell. And I totally agree he is outstanding. The fact checkers need to be fact checked most of the time


----------



## fmjohns

Fred Gifford said:


> I don't get this, new rules as of today say that I (fully vaccinated) can travel to the USA without having to produce a Negative Covid test and yet if I cross the Border bridge, pull a U-turn and try to re-enter Canada 30 seconds later I will be refused entry without producing a negative COVID test, I kid you not ... sometimes I am so embarrassed to be a Canucker


Hate to break the news but you can’t be refused entry in to Canada if you’re a Canadian citizen. You may be fined for not following regulations, but you’ll absolutely be permitted entry. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## fmjohns

laristotle said:


> My SiL came up for a week for the T-day weekend.
> They had their test/paperwork, but were still pulled in for a 'random' test.
> The agent actually told her that 'they have a quota to meet'.


Absolutely true. I work at an international airport (unrelated to PHAC testing) and there is a mandatory minimum number of tests per plane. All non-vaccinated people must be tested and then a percentage of fully vaccinated also get tested. 

And yes, non-vaccinated people can fly back in to Canada if you’re a citizen. CBSA cannot refuse entry to Canadian citizens. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Midnight Rider

Mikev7305 said:


> Then here's Dr John Campbell "debunking" the "debunkers"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was some praise from the pro vax crowd a while back about Dr John Campbell. And I totally agree he is outstanding. The fact checkers need to be fact checked most of the time


BBC + CBC = One and the same.
Go figure,... mainstream media not being truthful and upfront in their reporting,... shocking!, 🤯, lol.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Mikev7305 said:


> Then here's Dr John Campbell "debunking" the "debunkers"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There was some praise from the pro vax crowd a while back about Dr John Campbell. And I totally agree he is outstanding. The fact checkers need to be fact checked most of the time


I have an upset stomach so I am going to consult a journalist...lol...that's gold.


----------



## Choo5440

more news
It looks like Ontario (and other provinces) are moving towards requiring vaccinations for all hospital visitors, along with long term care facilities


----------



## mhammer

My wife and I drove to Halifax to see our son over the Thanksgiving weekend. We had learned that we would need to register with each province in order to gain entry, with proof of vaccination being part of successful registration. We printed out all the completed info, kept it in a handy binder and showed it when arriving at the checkstops before Edmundston and Amherst. That was Friday. When we passed through those same places on Tuesday, I couldn't see any trace that there had ever *been* any sort of checkstop. I thought I had taken a wrong turn somewhere, or been distracted and driven right through the checkstop. But no, there WAS no checkstop in either place, a mere 4 days later.

It would seem that the entire thing had really been set up to keep big Thanksgiving gatherings down to a minimum. Once Thanksgiving was over, the ongoing mask and PoV requirements for individual places seemed to be adhered to and doing their work.


----------



## Paul Running

mhammer said:


> My wife and I drove to Halifax to see our son over the Thanksgiving weekend. We had learned that we would need to register with each province in order to gain entry, with proof of vaccination being part of successful registration. We printed out all the completed info, kept it in a handy binder and showed it when arriving at the checkstops before Edmundston and Amherst. That was Friday. When we passed through those same places on Tuesday, I couldn't see any trace that there had ever *been* any sort of checkstop. I thought I had taken a wrong turn somewhere, or been distracted and driven right through the checkstop. But no, there WAS no checkstop in either place, a mere 4 days later.
> 
> It would seem that the entire thing had really been set up to keep big Thanksgiving gatherings down to a minimum. Once Thanksgiving was over, the ongoing mask and PoV requirements for individual places seemed to be adhered to and doing their work.


Much like unoccupied police cars on highways, during the holiday...to reduce speeding; does it work?


----------



## laristotle




----------



## mhammer

Paul Running said:


> Much like unoccupied police cars on highways, during the holiday...to reduce speeding; does it work?


I guess we'll see in about a week and a half.


----------



## colchar

Mikev7305 said:


> State of India declares themselves covid free. 199 active cases with a population of 241 million people. 5.8% vaccinated. Early treatment works best.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.educationviews.org/india-state-of-241-million-people-declared-covid-free-after-government-promotes-ivermectin/











No evidence suggests a causal link between ivermectin recommendation and the decline of COVID-19 cases in the Indian state of Uttar Pradesh


After a second devastating COVID-19 wave, India experienced a sharp decline in the number of COVID-19 cases in many regions, some of them promoting ivermectin use. However, no evidence suggests that ivermectin recommendations are behind the drop in COVID-19 cases. Instead, this decline likely...




healthfeedback.org














Fact check: No link between India's falling COVID-19 cases and hydroxychloroquine


Hydroxychloroquine and ivermectin are not proven to effectively treat COVID-19.



www.usatoday.com


----------



## Midnight Rider

Here's a good discussion on Oct.13, 2021 between Joe Rogan and Dr. Sanjay Gupta who is a regular guest on CNN. You can watch it on Spotify 'The Joe Rogan Experience'. The interview is 3:08:39 long but you can find the focused discussion between the two that talks about Joe Rogan's Covid infection and recovery at the 1:26:00 mark. Joe takes him to task on how CNN straight out lied to the viewers of what Joe took to help in his quick Covid recovery.

The second video is what CNN aired on Oct.14,2021 with regards to Gupta's interview at 'The Joe Rogan Experience' that occurred the day before. Dr. Sanjay Gupta came across as total two faced shill during the CNN segment. As they very often do, CNN only included partial selected video clips of the interview between Rogan and Gupta to set up their bullshit fake news delivery to the masses. Is it any wonder why the mainstream media has lost the trust of the general public. What really pissed me off is that Gupta during the CNN segment just sat their playing the shill and made no attempt of confronting the CNN gang as he indicated that he would while talking to Rogan about doing so the day before. Pathetic journalists liars to say the least.

There is also additional interesting conversation between the two if you have the time to watch the entire 3+ hour discussion.

'The Joe Rogan Experience' interview with Dr. Sanjay Gupta - Oct.13, 2021 on Spotify.
https://open.spotify.com/episode/6r...c4&uri=spotify:episode:6rAgS1KiUvLRNP4HfUePpA 

CNN take on the Rogan and Gupta interview - Oct.14, 2021.


----------



## Jim Wellington

Midnight Rider said:


> Here's a good discussion on Oct.13, 2021 between Joe Rogan and Dr. Sanjay Gupta who is a regular guest on CNN. You can watch it on Spotify 'The Joe Rogan Experience'. The interview is 3:08:39 long but you can find the focused discussion between the two that talks about Joe Rogan's Covid infection and recovery at the 1:26:00 mark. Joe takes him to task on how CNN straight out lied to the viewers of what Joe took to help in his quick Covid recovery.
> 
> The second video is what CNN aired on Oct.14,2021 with regards to Gupta's interview at 'The Joe Rogan Experience' that occurred the day before. Dr. Sanjay Gupta came across as total two faced shill during the CNN segment. As they very often do, CNN only included partial selected video clips of the interview between Rogan and Gupta to set up their bullshit fake news delivery to the masses. Is it any wonder why the mainstream media has lost the trust of the general public. What really pissed me off is that Gupta during the CNN segment just sat their playing the shill and made no attempt of confronting the CNN gang as he indicated that he would while talking to Rogan about doing so the day before. Pathetic journalists liars to say the least.
> 
> There is also additional interesting conversation between the two if you have the time to watch the entire 3+ hour discussion.
> 
> 'The Joe Rogan Experience' interview with Dr. Sanjay Gupta - Oct.13, 2021 on Spotify.
> https://open.spotify.com/episode/6rAgS1KiUvLRNP4HfUePpA?uid=bbdb88f82d48cbfaeec4&uri=spotify:episode:6rAgS1KiUvLRNP4HfUePpA
> 
> CNN take on the Rogan and Gupta interview - Oct.14, 2021.


Gupta...a talking head with a script. It was cringe inducing to watch him prostrate himself on behalf of his paycheck.

Too bad so many are gulping down the government/political spin on all things Covid. Dark times full of misdirection and misinformation, with most too proud to admit they have been fooled in one form or another at some point.

Here`s another prime example of how perceptions can be twisted around Covid.









Dr. Deena Hinshaw apologizes and says Alberta teen didn't actually die from COVID


'The pain of losing a child is terrible enough without having that loss compounded by a public debate about the circumstances.... I’m sorry'




nationalpost.com


----------



## mhammer

Jim, how is your post helpful?


----------



## allthumbs56

I found out over the Thanksgiving weekend that my son in law in Victoria went and got his first jab. My daughter will follow once she's finished breastfeeding.

I'm not supposed to know about it because he was pretty adamantly opposed and I leaned on him pretty hard until we just ended up in a Mexican Standoff - and there's probably some face-saving stuff in there as a result. Anyway, whatever his reasons I'm thrilled and relieved for all of their sakes - including my little granddaughters. As my son explained it to me there was not any particular motivator - just the culmination of information finally tipped my SIL in the "right" direction. He's pretty smart - but stubborn enough that he needs to make up his own mind. For me, well a father wants to protect his family, so as I said, I am just very relieved and tickled.


----------



## tdotrob

Here is some “news” that I saw last night that goes beyond billionaires and millionaires arguing about who’s full of shit. Truth is, for every “intellectual” non conformist I’ve done the research and your all sheep listen to this super rich guy tell us how we should be treated, and treat covid from their super compound with vaults of money —there are real stories with real people right in our community.

I mean you can go right to the companies who manufacture ivermectin drugs and they tell you right on their websites it’s not a good treatment for covid. For every anecdote about people who treated themselves and recovered there are also lots to be found where people died as they didn’t get help they needed because of their false sense of protection. Couple that with millions of people who did nothing and recovered because it’s the nature of the beast some anecdotal evidence from multi millionaires means absolutely dick to me.

so who’s the sheep?

I trained and fought MMA for a few years with this guy so obviously cardio wasn’t his issue. Big anti-vaxxer.. well until recently.









__
Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18
Show Content


----------



## Jim Wellington

mhammer said:


> Jim, how is your post helpful?


The post is of no help to you or your agenda. I didn`t post it to make brownie points with vaccine fanatics. i posted it as there are still a few people interested in open dialogue, that is of course until people like yourself get enough social power to control the conversation totally. Be patient, as I`m sure you will get your way. 

i`m not nearly as scared of Covid as i am people like yourself that can make bullshit sound/smell like roses. We have nothing in common. I despise bureaucrats...I offered the post to a handful of indivduals here that might be interested, not you. Now go save a kitten in a tree...and post it on social media. I`m out.


----------



## mhammer

My "agenda" is for as many people to be well as possible, and to encourage whatever gets us there. And if kittens get helped as well, I'm cool with that. I like people more, but I like kittens too.


----------



## tdotrob

I wish we could go back to watch the old Black Lives Matter thread in political where a lot of the same “anti-government” “anti-oppression” anti vaxx posters who preach questioning your government and the info they feed you source mainstream media and government stats in their obvious racist effort to discredit BLM protesters and a group of people using any mean necessary to try and escape the oppressive institution and bureaucracy for a better and more equal existence.

Now as it affects their seemingly comfortable middle class existence they all freedom fighters. Hilarious!!


----------



## laristotle

I found that story informative. Tnx Jim.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> Jim, how is your post helpful?


"Equal airwaves" if nothing else.

The reasons for not getting vaccinated may not be as important to those of us already vaccinated - but are still very important to those maintaining their reasoning for not getting vaccinated. Before getting his first jab, my son-in-law posted a dozen or more things on FB about the evils of vaccination every day. Today he posts nothing - other than pics of my grandkids.


----------



## GuitarT




----------



## zztomato

Midnight Rider said:


> Here's a good discussion on Oct.13, 2021 between Joe Rogan and Dr. Sanjay Gupta who is a regular guest on CNN. You can watch it on Spotify 'The Joe Rogan Experience'. The interview is 3:08:39 long but you can find the focused discussion between the two that talks about Joe Rogan's Covid infection and recovery at the 1:26:00 mark. Joe takes him to task on how CNN straight out lied to the viewers of what Joe took to help in his quick Covid recovery.
> 
> The second video is what CNN aired on Oct.14,2021 with regards to Gupta's interview at 'The Joe Rogan Experience' that occurred the day before. Dr. Sanjay Gupta came across as total two faced shill during the CNN segment. As they very often do, CNN only included partial selected video clips of the interview between Rogan and Gupta to set up their bullshit fake news delivery to the masses. Is it any wonder why the mainstream media has lost the trust of the general public. What really pissed me off is that Gupta during the CNN segment just sat their playing the shill and made no attempt of confronting the CNN gang as he indicated that he would while talking to Rogan about doing so the day before. Pathetic journalists liars to say the least.
> 
> There is also additional interesting conversation between the two if you have the time to watch the entire 3+ hour discussion.
> 
> 'The Joe Rogan Experience' interview with Dr. Sanjay Gupta - Oct.13, 2021 on Spotify.
> https://open.spotify.com/episode/6rAgS1KiUvLRNP4HfUePpA?uid=bbdb88f82d48cbfaeec4&uri=spotify:episode:6rAgS1KiUvLRNP4HfUePpA
> 
> CNN take on the Rogan and Gupta interview - Oct.14, 2021.


Why don't you take up your complaint with CNN directly instead of whining to the GC membership about it? Everybody knows about the political slant of CNN and FOX "news" and the like.


----------



## Grainslayer

Im still vaccine free and have yet to hear about anyone that I know with any covid experiences..Weird.


----------



## mhammer

I still buy 6/49 tickets and have never knowingly met anyone who has won even a modest prize. So, which of those two rolls of the dice do you place your faith in?

BTW, do you mask and distance?


----------



## zztomato

Grainslayer said:


> Im still vaccine free and have yet to hear about anyone that I know with any covid experiences..Weird.


You should get out more. 😆


----------



## allthumbs56

Grainslayer said:


> Im still vaccine free and have yet to hear about anyone that I know with any covid experiences..Weird.


I haven't died of heart disease yet either. Weird.


----------



## GuitarT

Grainslayer said:


> Im still vaccine free and* have yet to hear about anyone that I know with any covid experiences..*Weird.


Wish I could say the same...


----------



## Grainslayer

mhammer said:


> I still buy 6/49 tickets and have never knowingly met anyone who has won even a modest prize. So, which of those two rolls of the dice do you place your faith in?
> 
> BTW, do you mask and distance?





zztomato said:


> You should get out more. 😆


Ive always been a bit of a recluse.And I wear a mask when I go out.And I know three people who have become millionaires playing 649..
I guess what im saying is I still fear willingly putting a vaccine in my body.I dont get flu shots either.


----------



## Grainslayer

allthumbs56 said:


> I haven't died of heart disease yet either. Weird.


I haven't heard anything about that being an epidemic.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Downloaded and printed my proof of vaccine today. Why so big?


----------



## 2manyGuitars

allthumbs56 said:


> I haven't died of heart disease yet either. Weird.


I also haven't been hit by a bus, struck by lightning, bitten by a shark, crushed by a falling piano, kicked by a camel, or swallowed up by a sinkhole. Imagine that... 😱


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> Downloaded and printed my proof of vaccine today. Why so big?


Just downloaded and printed mine as well. Using the office printer I shrunk the size of the code so that it was credit card size. I also took a pic with my phone - will soon find out if both/either work.


----------



## davetcan

allthumbs56 said:


> Just downloaded and printed mine as well. Using the office printer I shrunk the size of the code so that it was credit card size. I also took a pic with my phone - will soon find out if both/either work.


You mean it's not downloaded directly to the phone as an image?


----------



## Wardo

Grainslayer said:


> Im still vaccine free and have yet to hear about anyone that I know with any covid experiences..Weird.


Perhaps not relevant to the discussion but I know 2 people who died from it; one was 43 and the other 62. The 62 year old died a couple of days ago; her SAT went down to 50 and gone shortly after. Also know someone who had it about 6 months ago - she was intubated in the ICU and recovered. My buisiness partner know a few who got it but lived. And another one I forgot about but he had it a year ago and recovered. So it's out there.


----------



## Wardo

allthumbs56 said:


> Just downloaded and printed mine as well. Using the office printer I shrunk the size of the code so that it was credit card size. I also took a pic with my phone - will soon find out if both/either work.


I still have a red ohip card so had to call them today about that because can't do it online - the guy that answered could not speak english and might not have been proficient in any language so I gave up after 5 minutes trying to talk to him and I hung up. I'm not annoyed, in fact I'm quite please because it's a perfect example of where this place needs to be


----------



## laristotle

I'd like to post an article regarding pfizer, but I'm not going to risk a strike three.


----------



## allthumbs56

davetcan said:


> You mean it's not downloaded directly to the phone as an image?


Old School - no data plan. I want a paper copy for my wallet because I do not carry my phone everywhere. It downloaded to my desktop as a pdf.

Somebody with a phone - let us know your procedure.


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> I'd like to post an article regarding pfizer, but I'm not going to risk a strike three.


The "whistleblower" on Veritas? The name change timing with Cormirnaty? There's nothing there so probably not worth risking it - wait for something earth-shattering to make it worthwhile  .


----------



## mhammer

Grainslayer said:


> Ive always been a bit of a recluse.And I wear a mask when I go out.And I know three people who have become millionaires playing 649..
> I guess what im saying is I still fear willingly putting a vaccine in my body.I dont get flu shots either.


Just out of curiosity, what is your aversion to vaccination in general? E.g., is it simply one facet of an aversion to needles, an aversion to taking medicine? Or is it specific to vaccines? Did you get vaccinated as a kid?


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> I found out over the Thanksgiving weekend that my son in law in Victoria went and got his first jab. My daughter will follow once she's finished breastfeeding.
> 
> I'm not supposed to know about it because he was pretty adamantly opposed and I leaned on him pretty hard until we just ended up in a Mexican Standoff - and there's probably some face-saving stuff in there as a result. Anyway, whatever his reasons I'm thrilled and relieved for all of their sakes - including my little granddaughters. As my son explained it to me there was not any particular motivator - just the culmination of information finally tipped my SIL in the "right" direction. He's pretty smart - but stubborn enough that he needs to make up his own mind. For me, well a father wants to protect his family, so as I said, I am just very relieved and tickled.


Now that's a story with a happy ending!With any luck, you'll all get to visit, hug, and get a little weepy in the not too distant future.


----------



## davetcan

allthumbs56 said:


> Old School - no data plan. I want a paper copy for my wallet because I do not carry my phone everywhere. It downloaded to my desktop as a pdf.
> 
> Somebody with a phone - let us know your procedure.


Don't you have wifi at home?


----------



## mhammer

Interesting video from Dr, John Campbell yesterday, summarizing some animal research on much greater incidence of side-effects when mRNA vaccines are injected_ intravenously_ (IV), rather than _intramuscularly_ (IM). He explains why, but I won't go into that. Normally, vaccination is intramuscular - i.e., into the "meat" of a muscle. As he notes, though, or rather_ estimates_ (he IS a retired nursing prof after all), one in every several thousand shots, the needle tip _might_ actual enter a blood vessel; a small one but a blood vessel nonetheless. This is why best practice for intended IM injection is to "aspirate". That is, you stick the needle in, and pull the hypodermic plunger _back_ a little to verify that you haven't punctured a vessel. If any blood comes out into the hypodermic chamber, then you need to start over and inject in a different location. If nothing comes ou, you're good to go, and depress the plunger to administer the contents in the chamber. My guess is that, in an effort to process as many people as quickly as possible, aspiration is not always used; the nurse/doctor simply assumes, based on their practice and experience, that they've hit the right spot in the right way, pushes the plunger, puts the bandage on, and you're done. If you have concerns, it is not at all unreasonable to ask (_nicely_) that the administering nurse/doctor aspirate first.

The risk of unwanted side-effects is _quite_ low, but aspiration provides a little more insurance that it is even lower.


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Old School - no data plan. I want a paper copy for my wallet because I do not carry my phone everywhere. It downloaded to my desktop as a pdf.
> 
> Somebody with a phone - let us know your procedure.


I don't have a mobile device, so it would have to be on paper. But if a device can read a QR code on a screen, it can also read one on paper.


----------



## allthumbs56

davetcan said:


> Don't you have wifi at home?


C'mon Dave - how hard do you want me to work? 🥴 I did take a pic of the code and it's my wallpaper on the phone. I'll be in a bar tomorrow night and I'll have them check it out.


----------



## laristotle

mhammer said:


> The risk of unwanted side-effects is _quite_ low, but aspiration provides a little more insurance that it is even lower.


So, lack of proper training?
They should go old school then, scrape the skin with a fountain pen style apparatus.


----------



## davetcan

allthumbs56 said:


> C'mon Dave - how hard do you want me to work? 🥴 I did take a pic of the code and it's my wallpaper on the phone. I'll be in a bar tomorrow night and I'll have them check it out.


LOL, luddite!


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> The "whistleblower" on Veritas? The name change timing with Cormirnaty? There's nothing there so probably not worth risking it - wait for something earth-shattering to make it worthwhile  .


No.
Yes.
So, you know what I'm referring to then? about how the FDA is dealing with it?


----------



## Midnight Rider

zztomato said:


> Why don't you take up your complaint with CNN directly instead of whining to the GC membership about it? Everybody knows about the political slant of CNN and FOX "news" and the like.


As usual,... you miss the entire point of why I posted what I did. I could explain in detail of why I did but I have my doubts you would fully understand,... so, I won't spoon feed you but instead let you exercise some common sense and critical thinking if you can muster enough up to complete the challenge. Good luck!


----------



## Midnight Rider

Jim Wellington said:


> Gupta...a talking head with a script. It was cringe inducing to watch him prostrate himself on behalf of his paycheck.
> 
> Too bad so many are gulping down the government/political spin on all things Covid. Dark times full of misdirection and misinformation, with most too proud to admit they have been fooled in one form or another at some point.
> 
> Here`s another prime example of how perceptions can be twisted around Covid.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dr. Deena Hinshaw apologizes and says Alberta teen didn't actually die from COVID
> 
> 
> 'The pain of losing a child is terrible enough without having that loss compounded by a public debate about the circumstances.... I’m sorry'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


Excellent post Jim. It appears that we also have a level of CNN reporting here in Canada. Just another valid reason not to trust some of these self proclaimed 'Golden Calf' gods that many here choose to worship. The truth is slowly but surely revealing itself when it comes to how the death toll of Covid is being altered and manipulated. They will eventually all fall in defeat. Some of us are not as stupid as they would like us to be.


----------



## zztomato

Midnight Rider said:


> As usual,... you miss the entire point of why I posted what I did. I could explain in detail of why I did but I have my doubts you would fully understand,... so, I won't spoon feed you but instead let you exercise some common sense and critical thinking if you can muster enough up to complete the challenge. Good luck!
> View attachment 383658


You have the maturity of a 5 year old.
Grow up.


----------



## Midnight Rider

allthumbs56 said:


> I haven't died of heart disease yet either. Weird.


Great to hear your heart is still strong and functioning as it should.
I contracted Covid and survived it,... Weird, 
Seems as if we both are in well enough health that is allowing our vital organs and immune systems to keep us alive.
Good to see we can agree on something.


----------



## zztomato

Midnight Rider said:


> deleted post


You make some pretty grand assumptions about people.
Why don't you go back though the few posts I've made in this thread and point out anything that even remotely suggests a political leaning?

I don't know how many posts you've made in this thread but it shows a dysfunctional level of obsession. Maybe give it a rest. I don't care what personal choice you make for yourself but you seem hell bent on convincing others that you have the only answers and that all others are idiots.
Narcissistic much?
Put me on ignore if I'm bugging you.


----------



## Midnight Rider

zztomato said:


> You make some pretty grand assumptions about people.
> Why don't you go back though the few posts I've made in this thread and point out anything that even remotely suggests a political leaning?
> 
> I don't know how many posts you've made in this thread but it shows a dysfunctional level of obsession. Maybe give it a rest. I don't care what personal choice you make for yourself but you seem hell bent on convincing others that you have the only answers and that all others are idiots.
> Narcissistic much?
> Put me on ignore if I'm bugging you.


I'm very accurate at pegging people,... have had six decades and a lifetime of real life experiences to figure out how to read various individuals just by what they say and or do,... as I'm sure you do as well. No, I don't have all the answers and have never claimed that I do,... but what I do base my opinions on is real life experiences which I can validate with proof. You must be confusing me with another member who posts replies within this thread.

Remember how this has flared up between you and I. After I posted the bit about Joe Rogan, Dr. Sanjay Gupta and CNN you took it upon yourself to make the snarky reply to me. My post was factual and to the point,... not misleading or false and fit the discussion of this Covid thread. You were mistaken in thinking I would not voice my opinion of what I thought about your reply.

Take an unnecessary/unjustified poke and at me and I'll come back twice as hard,... each and every time.

I won't put you on ignore,... it's not my style,... you may have something to offer in the future on this or other forums at GC that I may find interesting and agree with,... who knows? 

However, for the time being I will continue to voice my opinion on how I feel on what is being discussed within this particular thread,... my chosen Avatar allows me to do so.


----------



## gtrguy

Deleted


----------



## colchar

Midnight Rider said:


> As usual,... you miss the entire point of why I posted what I did. I could explain in detail of why I did but I have my doubts you would fully understand,... so, I won't spoon feed you but instead let you exercise some common sense and critical thinking if you can muster enough up to complete the challenge. Good luck!
> View attachment 383658


You wouldn't know critical thinking if it bit you on the ass.


----------



## colchar

Midnight Rider said:


> I'm very accurate at pegging people,... have had six decades and a lifetime of real life experiences to figure out how to read various individuals just by what they say and or do



So you've made a life out of reading people's faces?




> but what I do base my opinions on is real life experiences which I can validate with proof.



You need to learn the definition of 'opinion'. By definition, an opinion is a position held in the absence of proof.


----------



## zztomato

Midnight Rider said:


> Take an unnecessary/unjustified poke and at me and I'll come back twice as hard,... each and every time.


Hard to know what to say about a statement like this. I feel kind of embarrassed for you.


----------



## tdotrob

It means he likes being poked and coming hard


----------



## mhammer

Um, I think we're drifting off-topic here, folks.


----------



## Wardo

Numerical position of letters in the alphabet.
This is all ya need to know .. lol


----------



## Grainslayer

mhammer said:


> Just out of curiosity, what is your aversion to vaccination in general? E.g., is it simply one facet of an aversion to needles, an aversion to taking medicine? Or is it specific to vaccines? Did you get vaccinated as a kid?


Im just paranoid about putting things into my body...And maybe not very trustworthy when it comes to anything governments have to say.Im not saying im right...just holding off to see if everybody turns into zombies or whatever.😁


----------



## laristotle

Grainslayer said:


> just holding off to see if everybody turns into zombies or whatever.😁


----------



## Paul Running

Corona:


----------



## mhammer

Grainslayer said:


> Im just paranoid about putting things into my body...And maybe not very trustworthy*** when it comes to anything governments have to say.Im not saying im right...just holding off to see if everybody turns into zombies or whatever.😁


Fair enough. People vary in their cautiousness. Part of what makes my wife so well-suited to being an evaluator of food safety (for the government) IS her cautiousness, so cautiousness itself is no great sin and can even be a virtue. I'm not a smoker or drinker, and have no great hankering towards intoxication of any sort. You could regale me with every manner of thrilling story about this or that time you were wasted or tripping on this or that, and I would still be unpersuaded to try it. So like I say, cautiousness is not a "defect".

I guess the question that begs asking, though, is what sort of evidence would be sufficient to _overcome_ your cautiousness. For a number of folks, their own reticence was conquered when someone close to them, and unvaccinated, became sick and was hospitalized. For everyone's sake, one would hope that's not the persuasion required for all those who are holding off on their poke. I don't wish that misery on anyone. That would be a lot of pain and suffering for something that could be accomplished with a straight and uncomplicated discussion of facts.

I'll just note that there are a SHITLOAD of things you likely stick in your body (as do I) on a daily basis that have not had anywhere *near* the extent of testing, quality-control, and followup data that these vaccines have had. So the question of "How much would it take?" is something you need to ask yourself, and reconcile it against what you normally take for granted without the same degree of cautiousness and reticence. For instance, do you ever take over-the-counter cold medicines? Just how many millions of people were they tested on before being approved for general use? How long would you wait for it to be on the market before taking it? Pfizer tested out their mRNA vaccine on tens of thousands in order to get approval for "experimental use", but at this point it has been administered to hundreds of millions, giving a pretty solid sense of its safety. Yes, people rightly ask "But what about long-term consequences?", to which I reply "We know buggerall about the long-term consequences of pretty much ANYTHING that has become available in the last 10 years." 5G phones held up to the side of one's head? Nobody knows. Protein shakes? Nobody knows. And on and on. If one adopts a consistent approach and declares they won't ingest or use anything that doesn't have at least 10 years' worth of safety data, fine. A tough life, but at least true to one's values and standards. But you can understand that, from where I'm standing, the inconsistencies leave me scratching my head, wondering "Why is that person resistant about _this_ but not about _that_ or _that_?".

And, as I think we're beginning to learn, some of those nasty side-effects that have so many resisting, are turning out to be consequences of HOW the injection was done, rather than the mere fact of vaccination.





***I think you mean trust*ing*. The person/s whom one trusts are the ones who are trust*worthy* (i.e., worthy of my trust)


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> but at this point it has been administered to hundreds of millions, giving a pretty solid sense of its safety.


Quick search gives 6.64 billion doses administered worldwide.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Jim DaddyO said:


> Quick search gives 6.64 billion doses administered worldwide.


Show your source of the search which includes the factual details.


----------



## Midnight Rider

tdotrob said:


> It means he likes being poked and coming hard


I see you gave him the thumbs up zztomato,... kind of exposes both of your 5 year old maturity levels,... don't you think?

You clowns make it too easy within this thread. Moderator suggested I take a break from this topic,... but nothing doing,... the random comic entertainment level here is exceptional.


----------



## JBFairthorne

Midnight Rider said:


> Moderator suggested I take a break from this topic,... but nothing doing,... the random comic entertainment level here is exceptional.


Well so far you haven’t listened to any sound advice, why start now?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Midnight Rider said:


> Show your source of the search which includes the factual details.


https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=number+of+covid+vaccines+doses+given+worldwide

Now 6.65 billion


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## mhammer

Again, somewhat drifting off-topic, folks.


----------



## laristotle

there is a report button.


----------



## davetcan

If you can't refrain from insulting each other while expressing diverse opinions I'll close the thread. That applies to people on both sides of the discussion.


----------



## allthumbs56

Good news for those with previous allergic reactions:









Most past allergic reactions not valid reason for COVID-19 vaccine exemption: allergists


Dr. Mariam Hanna noticed an uptick in requests for allergy assessments in her Burlington, Ont., clinic after the province began implementing COVID-19 vaccine certificates last month.




www.cp24.com


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Good news for those with previous allergic reactions:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most past allergic reactions not valid reason for COVID-19 vaccine exemption: allergists
> 
> 
> Dr. Mariam Hanna noticed an uptick in requests for allergy assessments in her Burlington, Ont., clinic after the province began implementing COVID-19 vaccine certificates last month.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cp24.com


People are certainly not _wrong_ to be concerned about allergic reactions. And, understandably, it takes a while to acquire and analyze the necessary data to be able to conclude that X, Y, and Z are, or _aren't_, a source of concern. I'm pleased that those who, in the absence of that information, have felt reticent about getting vaccinated, now seem to have a green light to proceed, and improve their safety, without simultaneously increasing their risk for something else.

That is indeed good news. Thanks for that, Chris.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Jim DaddyO said:


> https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=number+of+covid+vaccines+doses+given+worldwide
> 
> Now 6.65 billion


In your initial post I thought you were referring to one specific article that you were quoting from,... that is what I was asking for. Yes, I realize there are millions of posts on the internet you can find using a search engine,... as you had shown by posting the above link. I have read through many of them as well,... just thought you had something significantly new and updated that I may not have come across.

Of course there are some of the sources that for good reason I do not put 100% faith in when they report on certain aspects Covid-19. I'm not disputing that there have not been 6.65 billion vaccinated worldwide. In fact I hope it is completely true which in turn should make you and many others less concerned about those who prefer not to be vaccinated.
I suspect the 6.65 billon number makes you feel safer as clearly the unvaccinated are increasingly becoming more of a minority. This should mean that the chances of fully vaccinated people coming across an unvaccinated person during the course of their daily activities is indeed becoming more of a remote possibility. Also, keeping in mind that not every unvaccinated individual is infected with the virus should even further be a cause for celebration by those who are vaccinated just by knowing they are protected with what they consider to be the ultimate line of defence against infection.

For instance, the chances of you and I ever crossing paths at close quarters is what I would consider a highly remote probability,... which probably satisfies us both. This alone should have you sleeping much better at night.

On the other hand, the 6.65 billion figure also encourages the unvaccinated to realize that the more who get vaccinated the less society will harass and attack them verbally and or physically ,... which in turn will have them sleeping better at night.

So, it would appear that a win-win situation for both separate camps is evolving with each and every passing day.

This is good news indeed,... sleep well my friend knowing you are becoming increasingly protected from the wretched unvaccinated.


----------



## starjag

Shaming memes are not opinions.



davetcan said:


> If you can't refrain from insulting each other while expressing diverse opinions I'll close the thread. That applies to people on both sides of the discussion.


----------



## davetcan

starjag said:


> Shaming memes are not opinions.


"Shaming" will be viewed as an insult, I don't care what form it takes.


----------



## mhammer

Note that the figure is 6.65 billion *vaccinations*. Some folks have one of them, some two, some 3 and a great many none at all. Not the same as 6.65 billion vaccin*ated*. Given that the world population was 7.75 billion last year, 6.65B vaccinated would mean that 86% of the entire world was vaccinated, which we know is not true.

Not a diss directed at you. When I was working in HRM in government, I regularly had to draw management's attention to the difference between applic*ations* and applic*ants*. I'm sure plenty of folks who work in businesses regularly have to hip their bosses to the difference between purchases and customers, or hits and viewers. Seeing lots of one does not necessarily mean lots of the other. It's a very common inferential error. Still, best to stop mistaken inferences before they spread.

And thanks for stepping in, Dave. Forums that endure and thrive are those where members get to remain friends.


----------



## Midnight Rider

mhammer said:


> Note that the figure is 6.65 billion *vaccinations*. Some folks have one of them, some two, some 3 and a great many none at all. Not the same as 6.65 billion vaccin*ated*. Given that the world population was 7.75 billion last year, 6.65B vaccinated would mean that 86% of the entire world was vaccinated, which we know is not true.
> 
> Not a diss directed at you. When I was working in HRM in government, I regularly had to draw management's attention to the difference between applic*ations* and applic*ants*. I'm sure plenty of folks who work in businesses regularly have to hip their bosses to the difference between purchases and customers, or hits and viewers. Seeing lots of one does not necessarily mean lots of the other. It's a very common inferential error. Still, best to stop mistaken inferences before they spread.


Agreed,... I had intentions of mentioning that as well in my last post but failed to do so. Pleased that you addressed what the possible breakdown of the 6.65 billion figure may look like. Has anyone come across a reliable source that has cited an accurate number of the fully vaccinated worldwide? 

I would have thought this data would be easily accessible by those in charge to accurately calculate, update regularly and disseminate around the globe. They seem to have readily available daily numbers for everything else Covid related.


----------



## laristotle

Midnight Rider said:


> On the other hand, the 6.65 billion figure also encourages the unvaccinated to realize that the more who get vaccinated the less society will harass and attack them verbally and or physically ,... which in turn will have them sleeping better at night.


Just to add;
A lot of vaxxed members of society now have the freedom again to go out to restaurants, concerts, sporting events etc. All in close contact no less and unmasked, in some instances.
As long as they have their papers or phones to flash their pass.
Still have the chances of being carriers/spreaders though. They just won't individually feel as bad if/when they contract covid.
Kind of a cavalier attitude. IMO.
I imagine that the non-vaxxed would be more fearful of them than what's being promulgated as the other way around, eh?!


----------



## player99

Is the political forum is now mainstream? I don't understand what I can post and what I can't anymore.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Midnight Rider said:


> This is good news indeed


Yes it is. The original quote of 6.64 billion that I put up was to add to Mark's contribution of the number of vaccines given vs the miniscule amount of reported side/adverse effects from getting the vaccine. After as many doses that have been given, any problems should have been pretty clear by now. At least for the time frame since vaccines have been given. The number which would be "mice nuts" as the scientific expression of how many. It pretty much shows that for the majority of people (I'm not claiming the entirety because that would not be true. There are issues with some people) a properly administered dose of the vaccine is a pretty safe way to go.

I have felt pretty safe from Covid in my remote part of the world. Not cocky though. The whole town is pretty much vaxxed and we all pretty much take reasonable precautions too. There hasn't been a case in town yet (knock on wood).

I have met a few people that, for one reason or another, are hesitant to take the vaccine. Some of the excuses they have are sound and I can see their point. Don't trust big pharma, the medical community, the government, etc. Valid, probably based on experience and history. But I think (and it's only my opinion) that there is enough evidence by now that it helps. Still, the choice is up to each person. 

All I can really do myself is to have good wishes for those who do, or don't get the vaccine. I don't want to see anyone ill, or worse. Reality is, we're mortal. Suseptible to many things, and only for a limited time.


----------



## Midnight Rider

laristotle said:


> View attachment 383752


Don't care what camp your in,... this is just good humour,... which this thread desperately requires from time to time, 👌


----------



## allthumbs56

Midnight Rider said:


> Don't care what camp your in,... this is just good humour,... which this thread desperately requires from time to time, 👌


Us zombies are gonna have a hard time finding brains to eat 🥴


----------



## mhammer

The Campbell videos I posted over the last few days have been very helpful, or rather the research pointed to is helpful. Despite being quite low in incidence, side-effects nevertheless give some folks legitimate pause to wonder whether they could be one of the rare ones, especially in the absence of obvious and unambiguous predictors of who is and isn't at risk for serious side-effects. It's the not knowing. But _knowing_ that some portion of the side-effects can come from injection method, and that one can simply ask the person administering the shot to aspirate, effectively reduces the risk of *unpredictable* side effects even further.

I don't know how many of you are familiar with phenylketonuria (PKU). It was traditionally a very serious congenital disorder, that would result in serious brain damage, and developmental delay, generally resulting in institutionalization. We eventually learned that its effects stemmed from the body's inability to metabolize phenylalanine, found in many foods. But once we knew this, it became a simple matter of labelling foods that contained phenylalanine, and avoiding them. So even though PKU remains an inheritted disease, a person doesn't have to suffer its effects. If you know the source of risk, and its easy to avoid, there's little to no effective risk.

Same thing with vaccine risk. As the mass immunization program moves along, and the avoidable risk factors associated with side-effects become identified, the effective risk of vaccination gets smaller and smaller. A damn shame it takes so long to gather and make sense of the data, to identify the avoidable/remediable risk factors, but it IS getting smaller.


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Us zombies are gonna have a hard time finding brains to eat 🥴


If you're trying to lose weight, avoid the white matter. Too much fat.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> If you're trying to lose weight, avoid the white matter. Too much fat.


Have you ever seen a fat zombie? Most look like they're just wasting away


----------



## Midnight Rider

allthumbs56 said:


> Us zombies are gonna have a hard time finding brains to eat 🥴


Oh I don't know about that,... there are times where this thread has felt like it has been eating a hole in my grey matter, lol.🧟‍♂️










Potential consequence of non-compliance with Mr. Noddle,...


----------



## ZeroGravity

Well, the ON "enhanced" vaccine certifcate didn't fail to disappoint. All the ON government did was issue a certificate with the information also included in QR code format and a "scanner" that scrapes through the QR code to get to the line that says "you have received 2 valid doses". Everything else is the same as before. This could have been useful but instead they cranked a "solution" that could have been written by a high school student in a weekend. Actually a HS student probably would have made it more useful, at least as an app, by integrating into things like Apple Wallet or creating an actual end-user app that you store and display and actual secure certificate with no need for another piece of ID. Now it is just another document you have to save store somewhere and open.


----------



## laristotle

MALCOLM: A sensational approach to COVID numbers only increases public skepticism


There is growing skepticism — frankly, it’s looking more like flat-out mistrust — when it comes to how the public views the way both the media and government…




torontosun.com




_Last week Alberta’s top doctor, Dr. Deena Hinshaw, provided her routine update on the COVID situation and noted a terribly sad case of a 14-year-old boy who died with COVID. She stressed that the boy’s complex pre-existing medical conditions “played a significant role” in his death.

Much of the media were quick to sensationalize the story, with several outlets running headlines stating that Alberta had its youngest ever COVID victim while burying the important context that COVID was not the primary cause of death.

Of course, context matters and we should always welcome more information.

While the likes of Vipond were angry at Dr. Hinshaw for providing too much information to the public, the 14-year-old boy’s family sent out their own messages to the public.

“The 14-year-old (in) the article is my brother. He died from stage 4 brain cancer, not COVID. This is fake news. He was diagnosed in January 2021, and hospitalized in August. Two days before his death he was tested for COVID and it turned out positive,” wrote Simone Spitzer on her personal Facebook page.

Another sister, Justine, had a similar message.

“This is my brother and he had stage 4 brain cancer for nine months, not COVID. This is fake news. This is incorrect, there is not even 1% truth. This is disgusting!”

Following these statements, Dr. Hinshaw corrected the record and apologized to the family: “The pain of losing a child is terrible enough without having that loss compounded by a public debate about the circumstances. I’m sorry if the way I spoke about that death made your grief worse.”

Dr. Hinshaw made a mistake, and two days later, she acknowledged it and apologized. Meanwhile, the likes of Vipond and the CBC continue to sensationalize and fear-monger about COVID at all costs. This also sows mistrust, and they should also consider offering an apology to the Spitzer family, and indeed all Canadians._


----------



## Choo5440

Hopefully this is moreso fueled by poor vaccination rates, but the northern central US states + Alaska are seeing upticks in new cases (presumably) due to colder weather.


----------



## mhammer

ZeroGravity said:


> Well, the ON "enhanced" vaccine certifcate didn't fail to disappoint. All the ON government did was issue a certificate with the information also included in QR code format and a "scanner" that scrapes through the QR code to get to the line that says "you have received 2 valid doses". Everything else is the same as before. This could have been useful but instead they cranked a "solution" that could have been written by a high school student in a weekend. Actually a HS student probably would have made it more useful, at least as an app, by integrating into things like Apple Wallet or creating an actual end-user app that you store and display and actual secure certificate with no need for another piece of ID. Now it is just another document you have to save store somewhere and open.


One of the hurdles is that international travel restrictions/requirements are a _federal_ domain, while health (and proof of vaccination) is a _provincial_ jurisdiction. The issue is what sorts of system for verification is agreed upon, between provinces, as a standard. Just be glad Canada has just 10 provinces and 3 territories, and doesn't have 50 states.


----------



## ZeroGravity

mhammer said:


> One of the hurdles is that international travel restrictions/requirements are a _federal_ domain, while health (and proof of vaccination) is a _provincial_ jurisdiction. The issue is what sorts of system for verification is agreed upon, between provinces, as a standard. Just be glad Canada has just 10 provinces and 3 territories, and doesn't have 50 states.


I thought the Feds said that there was something being worked on at that level for travel soon, but you are right trying to get even the 10+3 to agree on anything is like nailing Jell-O to tree. For me, I won't matter until the decide to stop the mandatory PCR tests for re-entry and confirmation of mixed dose acceptance, although that one should be resolved soon I think.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

A few helicopter companies made out well. You couldn't cross the border by land, but you could fly into the US. Many took the short flight while having their RV's towed across the border. For every rule, there seems to be a work around.


----------



## allthumbs56

ZeroGravity said:


> I thought the Feds said that there was something being worked on at that level for travel soon, but you are right trying to get even the 10+3 to agree on anything is like nailing Jell-O to tree. *For me, I won't matter until the decide to stop the mandatory PCR tests for re-entry and confirmation of mixed dose acceptance, although that one should be resolved soon I think.*


Yup.

Maggs loves going across the border to shop and we both enjoy hopping over for a pizza or a sleep-over and a steak. Having to have a PCR as well as being double-vaxxed is a pain - especially given that you don't need the test to to go - but to come back home to your own country.


----------



## ZeroGravity

allthumbs56 said:


> Yup.
> 
> Maggs loves going across the border to shop and we both enjoy hopping over for a pizza or a sleep-over and a steak. Having to have a PCR as well as being double-vaxxed is a pain - especially given that you don't need the test to to go - but to come back home to your own country.


The UPS Store in Ogdensburg NY which is the closest crossing to Ottawa has a backlog of over 10000 parcels waiting to be picked up.


----------



## Choo5440

allthumbs56 said:


> Yup.
> 
> Maggs loves going across the border to shop and we both enjoy hopping over for a pizza or a sleep-over and a steak. Having to have a PCR as well as being double-vaxxed is a pain - especially given that you don't need the test to to go - but to come back home to your own country.


I know it's annoying, but I can see the reasons why - the US is more interested in your dollars going down and less interested in your covid status. 

And we (Canada) is more worried about bringing new infections back into the country. How is CBSA supposed to know where you were in the states?


----------



## mhammer

Choo5440 said:


> I know it's annoying, but I can see the reasons why - the US is more interested in your dollars going down and less interested in your covid status.
> 
> And we (Canada) is more worried about bringing new infections back into the country. *How is CBSA supposed to know where you were in the states?*


Excellent point.

Although as I heard pointed out on the radio this morning, the negative-within-3-days test-requirement means a person can take a test in Canada, cross the border and go wherever for an afternoon or 2 days, and come back to Canada with evidence that they were uninfected_* before*_ they crossed the border, but *no* indication of whether they were bringing any virus back with them, along with whatever they cross-border shopped for. It's a gap in the policy.

Given the discrepancy in cost of being tested stateside or in Canada, the ideal would be temporary isolation at the border, until a rapid antigen test shows a negative result and you can continue on your way. But try to imagine the backlog of traffic, and what it would cost to set up monitored secure parking where you'd have to sit while you waited for results, not to mention the additional cost of the staff required to make sure that every single test result was connected up to the right person. It's not like a breathalyzer checkstop. And what happens IF a rapid antigen test indicates a positive result, false or accurate? Do you have to go back to the states until you can show you're "safe"?

Like I keeping harping on about, public policy is _hard_. People think it's easy to just come up with rules that work flawlessly, but there's always_ something_ that falls through the cracks and yields unintended outcomes.


----------



## Choo5440

Also hard to take into consideration is incubation period. You could potentially interact and become infected right before crossing the border, but still not show up as positive for a few days after arrival back in Canada. This is why all those travel hotels were holding people for 3-4 days upon arrival.


----------



## allthumbs56

Choo5440 said:


> I know it's annoying, but I can see the reasons why - the US is more interested in your dollars going down and less interested in your covid status.
> 
> And we (Canada) is more worried about bringing new infections back into the country. How is CBSA supposed to know where you were in the states?


Anyone going shopping for a day or two will get the PCR test before leaving Canada as it's good for 72 hours. That's not helping is it?

Oops I just read your post Mark .......


----------



## mhammer

No problem, Chris. I've done it myself, many a time.


----------



## tomee2

ZeroGravity said:


> The UPS Store in Ogdensburg NY which is the closest crossing to Ottawa has a backlog of over 10000 parcels waiting to be picked up.


I heard that too. A friend has 2 guitars waiting there since March 2020.. 18 months later I wonder what condition they'll be in?


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> No problem, Chris. I've done it myself, many a time.


Maggs has already changed her mind. Apparently the test required costs $150 + tax. You've got to buy a lot of bargains to justify that additional cost.


----------



## Midnight Rider

laristotle said:


> MALCOLM: A sensational approach to COVID numbers only increases public skepticism
> 
> 
> There is growing skepticism — frankly, it’s looking more like flat-out mistrust — when it comes to how the public views the way both the media and government…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> torontosun.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Last week Alberta’s top doctor, Dr. Deena Hinshaw, provided her routine update on the COVID situation and noted a terribly sad case of a 14-year-old boy who died with COVID. She stressed that the boy’s complex pre-existing medical conditions “played a significant role” in his death.
> 
> Much of the media were quick to sensationalize the story, with several outlets running headlines stating that Alberta had its youngest ever COVID victim while burying the important context that COVID was not the primary cause of death.
> 
> Of course, context matters and we should always welcome more information.
> 
> While the likes of Vipond were angry at Dr. Hinshaw for providing too much information to the public, the 14-year-old boy’s family sent out their own messages to the public.
> 
> “The 14-year-old (in) the article is my brother. He died from stage 4 brain cancer, not COVID. This is fake news. He was diagnosed in January 2021, and hospitalized in August. Two days before his death he was tested for COVID and it turned out positive,” wrote Simone Spitzer on her personal Facebook page.
> 
> Another sister, Justine, had a similar message.
> 
> “This is my brother and he had stage 4 brain cancer for nine months, not COVID. This is fake news. This is incorrect, there is not even 1% truth. This is disgusting!”
> 
> Following these statements, Dr. Hinshaw corrected the record and apologized to the family: “The pain of losing a child is terrible enough without having that loss compounded by a public debate about the circumstances. I’m sorry if the way I spoke about that death made your grief worse.”
> 
> Dr. Hinshaw made a mistake, and two days later, she acknowledged it and apologized. Meanwhile, the likes of Vipond and the CBC continue to sensationalize and fear-monger about COVID at all costs. This also sows mistrust, and they should also consider offering an apology to the Spitzer family, and indeed all Canadians._


It's as if you never even posted this on the thread, lol, 🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗.


----------



## allthumbs56

Midnight Rider said:


> It's as if you never even posted this on the thread, lol, 🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗🦗.
> View attachment 384024


???

Because it didn't garner any responses?


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## Midnight Rider




----------



## allthumbs56

Midnight Rider said:


> View attachment 384141


I think so. I'm having a little trouble understanding what the point of your last post was. Maybe that was the point?


----------



## Wardo

This thread has digressed into covidiocy.
Has Greta Tunaberger published anything about the lucky 19.
Her wisdom in guidance is badly needed here.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Lucky 19,...1+9=10>1+0=1
Look for the astrology version at a vaccination centre near you.


----------



## laristotle

Midnight Rider said:


> Look for the astrology version at a vaccination centre near you.


----------



## laristotle

Wardo said:


> Has Greta Tunaberger published anything about the lucky 19.


----------



## allthumbs56

Wardo said:


> This thread has digressed into covidiocy.
> Has Greta Tunaberger published anything about the lucky 19.
> Her wisdom in guidance is badly needed here.


Sure has. The good news? 46,000 more Canadians got their first jab yesterday! 👍


----------



## ZeroGravity

allthumbs56 said:


> Sure has. The good news? 46,000 more Canadians got their first jab yesterday! 👍


The latest question is what is the "herd immunity" level. Ottawa is reporting 90% one-dose and 85% 2-dose. I realize this magic number takes into account things like transmissibilty, but If I remember correctly this level surpasses what is considered sufficiently protected for things like the flu. At one point, possibly pre-delta, it was around 80% which was still considered at the high end of the scale.

On the passport side, MPP Lisa Mcleod is saying that 30% of Ottawa restaurants are not complying with vaccine passport checking. A random check of Ottawa subreddit seem that it ranges from about 50-100% compliance. It wasn't qualified whether compliance meant no checking at all or not cross-checking ID etc.


----------



## allthumbs56

ZeroGravity said:


> The latest question is what is the "herd immunity" level. Ottawa is reporting 90% one-dose and 85% 2-dose. I realize this magic number takes into account things like transmissibilty, but If I remember correctly this level surpasses what is considered sufficiently protected for things like the flu. At one point, possibly pre-delta, it was around 80% which was still considered at the high end of the scale.
> 
> On the passport side, MPP Lisa Mcleod is saying that 30% of Ottawa restaurants are not complying with vaccine passport checking. A random check of Ottawa subreddit seem that it ranges from about 50-100% compliance. It wasn't qualified whether compliance meant no checking at all or not cross-checking ID etc.


What "herd immunity" is is just a best guess based on Heaven knows what. Wikipedia won't even set a range other than referring to it as "significant" (I did learn a new term: "Free Rider" from looking it up). Only thing for sure is that we'll know we've achieved herd immunity when Covid goes away. Truth is that we know squat about getting out of this one for sure and we just have to keep throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks.


----------



## tonewoody

ZeroGravity said:


> The latest question is what is the "herd immunity" level. Ottawa is reporting 90% one-dose and 85% 2-dose. I realize this magic number takes into account things like transmissibilty, but If I remember correctly this level surpasses what is considered sufficiently protected for things like the flu. At one point, possibly pre-delta, it was around 80% which was still considered at the high end of the scale.
> 
> On the passport side, MPP Lisa Mcleod is saying that 30% of Ottawa restaurants are not complying with vaccine passport checking. A random check of Ottawa subreddit seem that it ranges from about 50-100% compliance. It wasn't qualified whether compliance meant no checking at all or not cross-checking ID etc.


Delta variant, 90% full vax rate required. This plus booster, most likely.

This shit is just going to drag on and on.


----------



## mhammer

ZeroGravity said:


> The latest question is what is the "herd immunity" level. Ottawa is reporting 90% one-dose and 85% 2-dose. I realize this magic number takes into account things like transmissibilty, but If I remember correctly this level surpasses what is considered sufficiently protected for things like the flu. At one point, possibly pre-delta, it was around 80% which was still considered at the high end of the scale.
> 
> On the passport side, MPP Lisa Mcleod is saying that 30% of Ottawa restaurants are not complying with vaccine passport checking. A random check of Ottawa subreddit seem that it ranges from about 50-100% compliance. It wasn't qualified whether compliance meant no checking at all or not cross-checking ID etc.


Epidemiologists and public health officials don't just pull a number out of their hindquarters. They base their "guesses" on past instances where a particular rate f vaccination uptake resulted in a measurably big drop in infection rates.

Admittedly, though, in a landscape changing as much and as quickly as this one, I don't think anyone has a solid idea about what sort of magic number gets us to herd immunity. Traditional estimates of what achieves a visible degree of herd immunity tend to come from bacterial infections, rather than viruses, or if viruses, then less rapidly mutating ones. As well, herd immunity projections are generally from relatively _localized_ epidemics (e.g., measles outbreaks in secluded parts of Pakistan), not from world-wide pandemics (which are thankfully few in number). Plus localized epidemics can be connected to fairly speedy immunization programs, with vaccines whose best-spacing requirements are already known, not programs dragging on for 10+ months while variants emerge, public health folks scramble to figure out how far apart boosters need to be for optimal immunity, and Facebook and public figures inspire people to gather unmasked. All we know is that the more people are vaccinated, and the more they adhere to public health guidelines, the less crowded ICUs are going to be.

RE: compliance.
The sort of rigidity and strictness needed to enforce compliance is kind of antithetical to the atmosphere restaurants seek to create. No restaurant is going to say "We do NOT do steaks well-done. NO exceptions." or "You have reached your two napkins per customer limit", so I don't expect staff to be equally stern at the door, unless they have been provided with excellent scripts for persuading customers. n So the compliance rate is unsurprising.

When we crossed the Quebec/NB and NB/NS borders at the start of the Thanksgiving weekend, they checked for our proof-of-vaccination, but didn't really seem to care about verifying ID, or the registration forms the province was insisting on. And if folks at checkstops explicitly_ intended_ to keep the unvaccinated out are that lax, I honestly can't see restauranteurs being more strict and fussy. Some might, simply because of personality or recent staff shortages, but I can't see the majority doing so.

That said, sometimes simply making it broadly known that there are entrance requirements, deters some folks. We didn't* know* in advance that the registration for legal entry into NB and NS wouldn't be inspected, but because we thought it _might_ be, we made sure to fill everything out and make sure we had it on us.


----------



## tomee2

ZeroGravity said:


> The latest question is what is the "herd immunity" level. Ottawa is reporting 90% one-dose and 85% 2-dose. I realize this magic number takes into account things like transmissibilty, but If I remember correctly this level surpasses what is considered sufficiently protected for things like the flu. At one point, possibly pre-delta, it was around 80% which was still considered at the high end of the scale.
> 
> On the passport side, MPP Lisa Mcleod is saying that 30% of Ottawa restaurants are not complying with vaccine passport checking. A random check of Ottawa subreddit seem that it ranges from about 50-100% compliance. It wasn't qualified whether compliance meant no checking at all or not cross-checking ID etc.


Most new cases are unvaccinated so if they would all just stop gathering at bars and gyms or protests about their freedom it would all go away pretty fast.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> RE: compliance.
> The sort of rigidity and strictness needed to enforce compliance is kind of antithetical to the atmosphere restaurants seek to create. No restaurant is going to say "We do NOT do steaks well-done. NO exceptions." or "You have reached your two napkins per customer limit", so I don't expect staff to be equally stern at the door, unless they have been provided with excellent scripts for persuading customers. n So the compliance rate is unsurprising.
> 
> When we crossed the Quebec/NB and NB/NS borders at the start of the Thanksgiving weekend, they checked for our proof-of-vaccination, but didn't really seem to care about verifying ID, or the registration forms the province was insisting on. And if folks at checkstops explicitly_ intended_ to keep the unvaccinated out are that lax, I honestly can't see restauranteurs being more strict and fussy. Some might, simply because of personality or recent staff shortages, but I can't see the majority doing so.
> 
> That said, sometimes simply making it broadly known that there are entrance requirements, deters some folks. We didn't* know* in advance that the registration for legal entry into NB and NS wouldn't be inspected, but because we thought it _might_ be, we made sure to fill everything out and make sure we had it on us.


Yeah, I don't think compliance is going to be an issue. We all know the mandates exist. If someone shows up at a restaurant door and willingly reaches for stuff when asked then there's a pretty good chance they're ok. If that same person starts to make excuses or climbs on a box and starts on about Nuremberg or the Charter or "My body" then they're probably not.


----------



## tonewoody

tomee2 said:


> Most new cases are unvaccinated so if they would all just stop gathering at bars and gyms or protests about their freedom it would all go away pretty fast.


Natural selection....⚰


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> I haven't died of heart disease yet either. Weird.


Bingo.

Testimonials are like opinions and assholes. Everybody has one. I know several people who definitely had Covid and one of them (my sister in law) is having serious and long lasting impact. She has not yet recovered and it has been many months.

Again, that's a testimonial, not evidence.

I'm way past trying to reason with anti-vaxers oir anti-maskers. So far I haven't had anyone in my face about it and I'm doing the same for them.

If people want to die from a preventable disease, they can fill their boots.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Ontario down to 304 cases Wednesday. 10th day in a row with fewer than 500.

Better, but not yet "good". I hope it's a trend we keep improving on.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8282969/ontario-covid-cases-october-20-coronavirus/


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> Ontario down to 304 cases Wednesday. 10th day in a row with fewer than 500.
> 
> Better, but not yet "good". I hope it's a trend we keep improving on.
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/8282969/ontario-covid-cases-october-20-coronavirus/


The last time we had a similar drop in active cases was July 11th. At that time active cases were at 1,592 - at which time they started going up again. Let's hope that doesn't happen again. We do have a lot more people vaccinated since then. 

Food for thought: As of today, of all cases (3435 active) in Ontario, 84% are unvaccinated vs. 16% vaccinated.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Milkman said:


> I know several people who definitely had Covid and one of them (my sister in law) is having serious and long lasting impact. She has not yet recovered and it has been many months.
> 
> Again, that's a testimonial, not evidence.


 How long has it been exactly since you sister-in-law had contracted the virus and what specific long lasting issues is she experiencing?

The reason I ask is because I had contracted the virus in February of 2020. The longer lasting systems that I experienced were some muscle and joint pain that lingered on and off for about 4 months. After that time period those symptoms depressed quickly and I am now feeling 100% without any issues. The first 4 weeks were the roughest with some shortness of breath, flu like aches and pains, loss of taste/smell and one banger of a sinus infection.

I also have an auto-immune disorder and as you know there were no vaccines available at that time. Six other members in my family also contracted the virus at the same time in 2020 and all went through the same scenario resulting in a full recovery without hospitalization,... however their recovery was a little quicker as none of them had any health issues with their immune systems.

I sincerely hope that with time passing your sister-in-law also experiences the dissipation of her long lasting symptoms from Covid.


----------



## Milkman

Midnight Rider said:


> How long has it been exactly since you sister-in-law had contracted the virus and what specific long lasting issues is she experiencing?
> 
> The reason I ask is because I had contracted the virus in February of 2020. The longer lasting systems that I experienced were some muscle and joint pain that lingered on and off for about 4 months. After that time period those symptoms depressed quickly and I am now feeling 100% without any issues. The first 4 weeks were the roughest with some shortness of breath, flu like aches and pains, loss of taste/smell and one banger of a sinus infection.
> 
> I also have an auto-immune disorder and as you know there were no vaccines available at that time. Six other members in my family also contracted the virus at the same time in 2020 and all went through the same scenario resulting in a full recovery without hospitalization,... however their recovery was a little quicker as none of them had any health issues with their immune systems.
> 
> I sincerely hope that with time passing your sister-in-law also experiences the dissipation of her long lasting symptoms from Covid.


I would have to ask for specifics. It was in 2020 that she contracted the virus. Again, I would have to ask for information as to the symptoms she is still suffering from, however I do know that she is still unable to work. She's well educated and normally works as a teacher or serves as a Pastor's (my brother is a Minister) wife.

Anyway, she's presently pretty effed up by the lingering effects of Covid from what I hear. Sorry, as I said, it's a testimonial, not evidence. Nevertheless, it's true.

I was actually surprised when I heard, as it really has been quite awhile since she originally got sick.


----------



## mhammer

One of the discouraging things is that, while researchers have been able to gradually narrow down sources of risk for side effects, I haven't heard quite as much about known risk factors for long-covid. That has two aspects. One is certainly useful information about maintaining steps/protocols to avoid contracting the virus in the first place. But a second related aspect is supporting the legitimacy of claims of long covid. Being sick in so many different ways, months later, without any discernible risk or linking factors, makes it harder for those who are affected to be accurately and positively diagnosed and get the sort of support and care they need. After all, part of what leads to a decisive diagnosis is identifiable risk factors. "Oh, you have a family history of X among close family members? Then it's probably...".

And of course, because all those millions of other ways to get and be sick are still around, if we were able to say "Risk factors X, Y, and Z are not present, so let me look for another cause than Covid", then a person could proceed to more targeted and appropriate treatment.

I'm not disputing or downplaying your SIL's status. Rather unless the symptoms themselves provide explicit and unambiguous diagnostic information for all people similarly affected, when in tandem with known risk factors, she may be stuck for support and treatment. If long-covid were more uniform in its symptoms, onset, and duration, we;d have more solid footing. At the moment, it's kind of a shifting cloud, which doesn't please anyone. Not the affected, and not the medical folks who would like to help.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Jim DaddyO said:


> Ontario down to 304 cases Wednesday. 10th day in a row with fewer than 500.
> 
> Better, but not yet "good". I hope it's a trend we keep improving on.
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/8282969/ontario-covid-cases-october-20-coronavirus/


Out of a population of 14.57 million,... I'd say that is damn good.


----------



## Fred Gifford

I'd say that was GREAT!! ... but the quote that this comment came from said " Better, but not yet "good." Gimme a break, it seems pessimission has always been the underlying theme with these reports and praise and encouragement is rarely ever given, the goalposts always seem to move a little farther apart with each advance .. it would be wonderful if the population was 100% vaccinated and the virus was forever totally eradicated but is that attainable or even realistic to expect ? probably not ... time to start living again despite the ever present " threat" .. life will never be 100% safe or perfect ... never has been and never will be .... get on with it


----------



## JBFairthorne

Midnight Rider said:


> How long has it been exactly since you sister-in-law had contracted the virus and what specific long lasting issues is she experiencing?
> 
> The reason I ask is because I had contracted the virus in February of 2020. The longer lasting systems that I experienced were some muscle and joint pain that lingered on and off for about 4 months. After that time period those symptoms depressed quickly and I am now feeling 100% without any issues. The first 4 weeks were the roughest with some shortness of breath, flu like aches and pains, loss of taste/smell and one banger of a sinus infection.
> 
> I also have an auto-immune disorder and as you know there were no vaccines available at that time. Six other members in my family also contracted the virus at the same time in 2020 and all went through the same scenario resulting in a full recovery without hospitalization,... however their recovery was a little quicker as none of them had any health issues with their immune systems.
> 
> I sincerely hope that with time passing your sister-in-law also experiences the dissipation of her long lasting symptoms from Covid.


So you and several people close to you contracted COVID in February 2020?

Where? We’re you living in China? At that time it was barely emerging in Canada. Nobody knew anything about it. They weren’t even tracking cases until mid March. Match 14, 24 new cases. How many on any given day in February? 

Bullshit! When making up lies to support your ridiculous arguments, make them somewhat plausible.


----------



## laristotle

I recall reading that covid may have first appeared in late Oct to mid Nov. It wasn't labelled as such until Feb/March. It was reported as cases of ‘viral pneumonia’ in Wuhan on Dec 31st. Remember also that it was considered racist to suggest closing borders. I also contracted what may have been the same in late Dec of '19. It may have been covid. Reading about the symptoms later, when the news came out, they sure matched up. I was down for over three weeks. Never had it that bad in my entire life.


----------



## Guitar101

laristotle said:


> I recall reading that covid may have first appeared in late Oct to mid Nov. It wasn't labelled as such until Feb/March. It was reported as cases of ‘viral pneumonia’ in Wuhan on Dec 31st. Remember also that it was considered racist to suggest closing borders. I also contracted what may have been the same in late Dec of '19. It may have been covid. Reading about the symptoms later, when the news came out, they sure matched up. I was down for over three weeks. Never had it that bad in my entire life.


You're not claiming you had covid when you didn't know for sure and we appreciate that. There's too much speculation going on out there.


----------



## zztomato

I recall the speculation was that Covid was most likely present in late fall 2019. My son and I may have both had it in late feb 2020 but I would not say for sure. We both had some really odd symptoms due to some kind of virus but it did not last long. You would need some kind of antibody test to determine if you actually had it. All else is purely speculation.


----------



## Milkman

zztomato said:


> I recall the speculation was that Covid was most likely present in late fall 2019. My son and I may have both had it in late feb 2020 but I would not say for sure. We both had some really odd symptoms due to some kind of virus but it did not last long. You would need some kind of antibody test to determine if you actually had it. All else is purely speculation.



As someone who has never been tested, I have wondered if I did contract it at some point. I try not to whine about every ache and pain I experience. At my age, it's par for the course. Frankly when trying to asses the side effects of the vaccines, it's hard to discerne what is normal day to day stuff and what was caused by the shot.

I'll say this though. In the fall of 2019 I was recovering from open heart surgery and I was pretty careful. Covid at that point might have been a death sentence for me. And it has changed my level of caution ever since.


----------



## mhammer

I think, unless one has been tested and positively diagnosed, those who_ think_ they may have had it at some point needs to remember that the myriad of ways to be under the weather with symptoms that seem like "it's what's going around", never really went away for one moment. Some probably reduced when most of us masked up and had to stay home, but those pathogens didn't simply vanish; we just made less of an effort to spread them or catch them from someone. Like I've said before, since I retired and wasn't on a crowded commuter bus 5 days a week, I haven't been as healthy and disease-free in decades.

I've find the social phenomenon of "it's going around" a fascinating subject of study. Not that I'm slagging people as stupid or hypochondriacs, or that I'm poking fun at them. Rather, it's the manner in which people notice and interpret their ambiguous amorphous symptoms and perceive a family resemblance between what someone they know at work says they came down with, and what they "have". Not really all that different from looking at clouds and describing what you "see" in them. One's attention is drawn to certain features in an ambiguous constellation, and you run with it, based on social information.

Of course there are plenty of situations where the symptoms are clearcut and self-diagnosis is spot on. When I had my first kidney stone attack, I knew by the intensity and location of the pain that it was highly unlikely to be anything else. I presented as such to emergency, but they insisted on doing a bunch of time-consuming tests, only to come to the same conclusion. But here I'm talking about health symptoms that could overlap with a hundred different things, including Covid-19. There *are* symptoms that are unique. I mean, if a person had serious difficulty breathing and suddenly lost their sense of smell even though they weren't stuffed up, then chances are good it's not_ just_ a head cold and a Dristan away from a decent night's sleep again. But when something is in the news and rubbed in our faces as an understandably serious threat, we're likely to ignore the other possibilities our diffuse symptoms might be associated with.

Neither my wife or I have ever been tested because we haven't been sick since this thing broke out, and haven't gone to or attended anything where we needed to provide evidence of a negative test.


----------



## zztomato

Yeah, I have no doubts at all that the virus was in Canada long before it was declared a pandemic.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

About 308 new cases in Ontario being reported 1/3 of which (98) come from schools.


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> About 308 new cases in Ontario being reported 1/3 of which (98) come from schools.


From quite early, epidemiologists and public health officials were saying that any cases emanating from schools would be a reflection of general contagion rates in the school's community. I suspect their intent was to imply that, if the case count in a given community was high, opening a school was not such a good idea, and if the case count was low, then there was much less reason to keeps the kids on the Zoom screen.

There were a few aspects to this. One is that you don't want schools to be a mini super-spreader locus, with some kids bringing virus to school and others bringing it home. Early on, before we started to see minors being hospitalized, and worse, the widely-held belief was that children could be asymptomatic carriers, so the notion of seemngly healthy kids bringing it to school wasn't farfetched. We were also dealing with different variants at that time. The other aspect is that school starts to become dysfunctional if teachers, custodians, and school administrators start becoming sick from what has been brought there, and substitutes become tricky to find.

The school playground behind me is but one, so not an extensive sample. Although it has a unique curricular approach that emphasizes a lot of outdoor time, so it's "recess" for several classes/grades at any time of the day. But I have yet to see a teacher out there on recess without a mask, and many (though not all) of the kids are wearing masks as well. The kids may well be spaced apart in class, and being outside provides more than adequate ventilation. But kids DO wrestle and pile on outside, making close contact between this one's breath and that one's face a greater likelihood.

Clinical trials of pretty much _anything_ begin with volunteers in the best health, since one wants to ascribe any measured effects (and especially unintended/undesired effects) to whatever is being tested, rather than to any quirks of the recipients. So older adults, children, and pregnant/lactating women, and other subgroups are generally omitted***. Older adults, and women who may not have known they were pregnant, will be added over time, but since children will require parental consent, not to mention a willingness to "get a needle", they will often be among the last to provide enough test data to confirm safety and/or effectiveness. The data is dribbling in. We might see the day when kids are lining up outside the school nurse's office for their vaccination against this and similar corona viruses, along with their DPT and HPV shots.

***I'll set aside the very legitimate complaint/critique that too much medical research has only been tested out on adult males.


----------



## HighNoon

zztomato said:


> Yeah, I have no doubts at all that the virus was in Canada long before it was declared a pandemic.


About a third of the less than 200 Canadian Armed Forces athletes, returning from the World Military Wuhan games at the end of October 2019, were quarantined in the back of the plane with some nasty stuff, leading to pneumonia etc. I have not heard of any follow up blood work on them.


----------



## allthumbs56

The unvaccinated can expect COVID reinfection every 16 months, study finds


Author says the results are unsurprising, considering natural resistance to other coronaviruses tends to be short-lived




nationalpost.com





Is it just me or am I reading that headline wrong?


----------



## zztomato

HighNoon said:


> About a third of the less than 200 Canadian Armed Forces athletes, returning from the World Military Wuhan games at the end of October 2019, were quarantined in the back of the plane with some nasty stuff, leading to pneumonia etc. I have not heard of any follow up blood work on them.


I would like to see a lot more scrutiny placed on those early days- especially how China failed to protect even its own citizens. They were throwing doctors in jail for publicly suggesting there was a problem. Then you have the WHO that seemed to give China lots of time to accept that they had a serious viral outbreak. I don't know what purpose that fulfilled but the WHO clearly should've been much more aggressive with China and instead coddled them until they had no choice but to admit there was a virus that could reach pandemic proportions without containment. Too late.
Many lessons to learn. Not to defend the WHO but in the past, if they raise a concern about bird flu, they get called out as alarmist. 
There's a certain amount you can blame on human nature. People stick their heads in the sand and wont believe there's a problem until it knocks them over and by then it's too late.


----------



## laristotle

zztomato said:


> how China failed to protect even its own citizens


To a point. They did restrict domestics flights, but allowed international flights to continue for quite some time.


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> The unvaccinated can expect COVID reinfection every 16 months, study finds
> 
> 
> Author says the results are unsurprising, considering natural resistance to other coronaviruses tends to be short-lived
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is it just me or am I reading that headline wrong?


Confusing, to say the least.

_ “Our results are based on average times of waning immunity across multiple infected individuals,” says Hassler. “Any one of those individuals may experience longer or shorter durations of immunity depending on immune status, cross-immunity, age, and multiple other factors.” _


----------



## zztomato

laristotle said:


> To a point. They did restrict domestics flights, but allowed international flights to continue for quite some time.


Yeah, thanks China.


----------



## SWLABR

zztomato said:


> Yeah, thanks China.


Easy now, that could be seen as "political".


----------



## mhammer

laristotle said:


> To a point. They did restrict domestics flights, but allowed international flights to continue for quite some time.


There is a naive sense that any flight coming from an identified country has ONLY citizens of that nation aboard. We forget just how many Canadians are studying and travelling abroad, visiting or tending to family, or travelling for business or diplomatic purposes. Do YOU have a workable way to restrict passengers coming to Canada aboard an international carrier to ONLY Canadian citizens and permanent residents returning home? Does the carrier have the responsibility or even legal authority to reject non-Canadians from flying back home aboard their flight? Could Canadians *get* to return home if that carrier deemed it financially punitive to limit their flights to only Canadians? Could our government oblige Air Canada or some other Canadian carrier to have flights back from this or that foreign country? What responsibility does our government have to assure right-of-return to Canadians abroad, who get stuck somewhere through no real fault of their own?

I'm not trying to provoke a P-discussion. Just saying that it's a LOT more complicated than many think, at first blush, with a lot of players.


----------



## laristotle

mhammer said:


> I'm not trying to provoke a P-discussion


Unfortunately, I can't respond to your post because it would involve a lot of P words.


----------



## SWLABR

laristotle said:


> Unfortunately, I can't respond to your post because it would involve a lot of P words.


See?? You're learning, and growing as person!


----------



## allthumbs56

zztomato said:


> Yeah, thanks China.


Well whatever they did it must have worked - they only had 21 new cases yesterday


----------



## colchar

zztomato said:


> I recall the speculation was that Covid was most likely present in late fall 2019. My son and I may have both had it in late feb 2020 but I would not say for sure. We both had some really odd symptoms due to some kind of virus but it did not last long. You would need some kind of antibody test to determine if you actually had it. All else is purely speculation.


And being vaccinated now that test would be worthless.

My brother had something in late 2019 or early 2020 that absolutely leveled him. I am fairly convinced it was Covid. His doctor said no, but that was early in the pandemic when we didn't know as much about it as we do now.


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> And being vaccinated now that test would be worthless.
> 
> My brother had something in late 2019 or early 2020 that absolutely leveled him. I am fairly convinced it was Covid. His doctor said no, but *that was early in the pandemic when we didn't know as much about it as we do now.*


And as well, the symptoms seem to present in different clusters as new variants emerged, so what may be a diagnostic sign_ now_ was not equally diagnostic _then_, and vice versa. Slippery little bugger, innit?


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> There is a naive sense that any flight coming from an identified country has ONLY citizens of that nation aboard. We forget just how many Canadians are studying and travelling abroad, visiting or tending to family, or travelling for business or diplomatic purposes. Do YOU have a workable way to restrict passengers coming to Canada aboard an international carrier to ONLY Canadian citizens and permanent residents returning home? Does the carrier have the responsibility or even legal authority to reject non-Canadians from flying back home aboard their flight? Could Canadians *get* to return home if that carrier deemed it financially punitive to limit their flights to only Canadians? Could our government oblige Air Canada or some other Canadian carrier to have flights back from this or that foreign country? What responsibility does our government have to assure right-of-return to Canadians abroad, who get stuck somewhere through no real fault of their own?
> 
> I'm not trying to provoke a P-discussion. Just saying that it's a LOT more complicated than many think, at first blush, with a lot of players.



No it isn't that complicated.

Checks are done at airports for visas, etc. so it would be really simple to check someone's citizenship (they've got their damned passports on them!) and only let citizens of the destination country onto the plane.

You're claiming it would be incredibly difficult to do something that is already done.


----------



## HighNoon

And from July 2020 as entertaining then, as it is today.


----------



## JBFairthorne

If everyone who SAYS they had COVID before March 2020 actually had COVID then the first wave in March 2020 would have been much more significant. If they actually had COVID prior to March 2020 where were all the people on ventilators and all the deaths similar to the rates in the first and second wave? Where were all the news stories about this mysterious flu like illness filling up emergency rooms?

You had the flu.

And you wanna talk about lack of critical thinking?


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> No it isn't that complicated.
> 
> Checks are done at airports for visas, etc. so it would be really simple to check someone's citizenship (they've got their damned passports on them!) and only let citizens of the destination country onto the plane.
> 
> You're claiming it would be incredibly difficult to do something that is already done.


The only problem would be that you'd need to get the authorities from the country of departure to do the checking/denying. I'm not sure how easy it would be to get that kind of cooperation.


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> No it isn't that complicated.
> 
> Checks are done at airports for visas, etc. so it would be really simple to check someone's citizenship (they've got their damned passports on them!) and only let citizens of the destination country onto the plane.
> 
> You're claiming it would be incredibly difficult to do something that is already done.


But are carriers_ legally_ allowed to do that?


----------



## allthumbs56

JBFairthorne said:


> If everyone who SAYS they had COVID before March 2020 actually had COVID then the first wave in March 2020 would have been much more significant. If they actually had COVID prior to March 2020 where were all the people on ventilators and all the deaths similar to the rates in the first and second wave? Where were all the news stories about this mysterious flu like illness filling up emergency rooms?
> 
> You had the flu.
> 
> And you wanna talk about lack of critical thinking?


I'm sure some number of people have actually had it - and did but didn't know as well as lots who came down with something and believed it to be covid. My ex-in-laws both had it in mid-March of last year and both spent time in hospital. Did they get some level of immunity from that? Most likely. Do they have some level of immunity today? Maybe. No way of knowing without testing. Regardless, no medical or government body is gonna grant a pass for someone who may or may not have had it 18 months ago. It's a virus - like the flu. And like the flu - immunity does not last and, if it's like the flu you'll need a shot every year.


----------



## zztomato

@HighNoon , I appreciated your response to my post questioning the origins of the virus- I read it before it vanished. In this case it's likely hard to adequately address it without opening the political can of worms. Oddly, I don't find delving into that question as political territory but, many do. I guess we won't go there.


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> The only problem would be that you'd need to get the authorities from the country of departure to do the checking/denying. I'm not sure how easy it would be to get that kind of cooperation.


It already happens. I have had my info checked coming out of the UK.


----------



## allthumbs56

Light at the end of the tunnel?

UPDATED: Ontario to lift all COVID-19 measures by end of March, including mask mandate | National Post

or Alberta all over again?


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> It already happens. I have had my info checked coming out of the UK.


Yes they checked, and they have to check to make sure you're not a fugitive or on a no-fly list, but as Chris asks, could they deny travel to some destination based on one's citizenship or permanent residency? Is a person prevented from leaving the airport where they land? Besides, if one has been to, say, Bangladesh to tend to an elderly parent, and is returning home to Canada, you're not going to get a direct flight from Dhaka to Pearson. There will be a stopover and transfer somewhere, and chances are your final flight is going to be Air Canada or Westjet. So at what point are you blocked by authorities from returning home, because of where you visited? Whose "job" is it to protect Canada and Canadians? Does one get blocked from further travel in Paris, London, Manilla? Do Canadians now have to become subject to, and the burden of, governments in those countries?

If nobody ever left Canada for anywhere else for any reason, bans of anyone arriving from country X where there has been an outbreak of whatever would be a no-brainer. Trouble is, we're not North Korea and Canadians ARE free to travel, so there have to be a lot of allowances for them to come home. And, as we've since learned, saying "Sure, c'mon home but do stay quarantined for a while until we're all sure you haven't brought something back" is little guarantee of anything.


----------



## Midnight Rider

JBFairthorne said:


> So you and several people close to you contracted COVID in February 2020?
> 
> Where? We’re you living in China? At that time it was barely emerging in Canada. Nobody knew anything about it. They weren’t even tracking cases until mid March. Match 14, 24 new cases. How many on any given day in February?
> 
> Bullshit! When making up lies to support your ridiculous arguments, make them somewhat plausible.


A Moderator deleted my last reply to JBFairthorne with the reasoning that I had made a personal attack towards him.









So, JBFairthorne accuses me of being a liar and calls Bullshit and somehow this is not also considered a personal attack?,... interesting double standard indeed.

So, I have cleaned up my initial reply to JBFairthorne and decided to post it again here,... let's see how it goes.

My father passed away on February 15, 2020 and was buried on February 19, 2020,... before any restrictions were in place with regards to large gatherings. We had a full funeral with over 250 people attending over the time period of 3 days. People travelled from various locations in Canada, United States and overseas from Croatia,... you know, just across the Adriatic Sea from Italy. Also, when travelling from Croatia my relatives flight plan had a stop in Rome, Italy at the Leonardo da Vinci International Airport,... so keep that in mind. Also, as you may or may not know a couple of the most popular European travel destinations for Chinese tourists are Italy and Croatia,... starting to connect the dots?.I was in Croatia in 2018 and can confirm that data,... proof provided below.

My Niece was vacationing in Mexico at the time and had to cut her trip short and return for the funeral. 

She was 3 weeks in Mexico and for the last few days while still there was feeling ill and was suffering from flu like symptoms upon her arrival back in Canada.

We never thought much of it at the time as the spread of Covid was not centre of conversation. It was not until 1 to 2 weeks after the funeral gathering that my family members and I started to notice we had all been developing the symptoms of Covid,... which I have already described on more than one occasion within this thread. My niece was one of the family members with the symptoms and although we don't know for sure,... we speculated that perhaps she may have been the initial carrier. But there is no way of really coming to a concrete conclusion as family members from the United States and Croatia were some of the infected family members.

The symptoms were a direct match to those posted by Health Canada and other health organizations making it extremely for us or anyone to recognize we had contracted the virus.

Covid was obviously working it's way through populations of people around the world well in advance of the WHO or any other health organization finally realizing it was a global pandemic. People were obviously still travelling freely and carrying the virus from country to country and it was well on it's way before the dates you have cited.

Again, in our case it could have come from Mexico, Canada, USA or Europe,... no way of ever definitely knowing. 

What else do you require for detailed proof,... gathering my family members together and meeting with you to have them give their testimonials upon which time you can pass judgement? I'm sure my 84 year old Mother would love to sit and have a chat with you about her case of Covid.

I have politely included the following link which will bring to your attention the timeline of the 2020 Covid events which may assist in helping you understand the logical possibility of people having contracted the virus before March of 2020.
https://www.ajmc.com/view/a-timeline-of-covid19-developments-in-2020

Please accept my sincere and heartfelt apologies if I had in any way, shape or form offended you with my original reply in relation to your comments that suggested I was lying and or bullshitting you about the fact that I and family members contracted the virus. 

Peace and love to all my friends here at GC including all Moderators, Administrators, etc..


----------



## allthumbs56

Midnight Rider said:


> A Moderator deleted my last reply to JBFairthorne with the reasoning that I had made a personal attack towards him.
> View attachment 384484
> 
> 
> So, JBFairthorne accuses me of being a liar and calls Bullshit and somehow this is not also considered a personal attack?,... interesting double standard indeed.
> 
> So, I have cleaned up my initial reply to JBFairthorne and decided to post it again here,... let's see how it goes.
> 
> My father passed away on February 15, 2020 and was buried on February 19, 2020,... before any restrictions were in place with regards to large gatherings. We had a full funeral with over 250 people attending over the time period of 3 days. People travelled from various locations in Canada, United States and overseas from Croatia,... you know, just across the Adriatic Sea from Italy. Also, when travelling from Croatia my relatives flight plan had a stop in Rome, Italy at the Leonardo da Vinci International Airport,... so keep that in mind. Also, as you may or may not know a couple of the most popular European travel destinations for Chinese tourists are Italy and Croatia,... starting to connect the dots?.I was in Croatia in 2018 and can confirm that data,... proof provided below.
> 
> My Niece was vacationing in Mexico at the time and had to cut her trip short and return for the funeral.
> 
> She was 3 weeks in Mexico and for the last few days while still there was feeling ill and was suffering from flu like symptoms upon her arrival back in Canada.
> 
> We never thought much of it at the time as the spread of Covid was not centre of conversation. It was not until 1 to 2 weeks after the funeral gathering that my family members and I started to notice we had all been developing the symptoms of Covid,... which I have already described on more than one occasion within this thread. My niece was one of the family members with the symptoms and although we don't know for sure,... we speculated that perhaps she may have been the initial carrier. But there is no way of really coming to a concrete conclusion as family members from the United States and Croatia were some of the infected family members.
> 
> The symptoms were a direct match to those posted by Health Canada and other health organizations making it extremely for us or anyone to recognize we had contracted the virus.
> 
> Covid was obviously working it's way through populations of people around the world well in advance of the WHO or any other health organization finally realizing it was a global pandemic. People were obviously still travelling freely and carrying the virus from country to country and it was well on it's way before the dates you have cited.
> 
> Again, in our case it could have come from Mexico, Canada, USA or Europe,... no way of ever definitely knowing.
> 
> What else do you require for detailed proof,... gathering my family members together and meeting with you to have them give their testimonials upon which time you can pass judgement? I'm sure my 84 year old Mother would love to sit and have a chat with you about her case of Covid.
> 
> I have politely included the following link which will bring to your attention the timeline of the 2020 Covid events which may assist in helping you understand the logical possibility of people having contracted the virus before March of 2020.
> https://www.ajmc.com/view/a-timeline-of-covid19-developments-in-2020
> 
> Please accept my sincere and heartfelt apologies if I had in any way, shape or form offended you with my original reply in relation to your comments that suggested I was lying and or bullshitting you about the fact that I and family members contracted the virus.
> 
> Peace and love to all my friends here at GC including all Moderators, Administrators, etc..
> 
> View attachment 384485


You mention that you all had the symptoms but did any of your family members actually test positive or is it just your collected surmise based on living through it?


----------



## JBFairthorne

@Midnight Rider Just for the record, I never took your reply as a personal attack and I certainly didn’t report it.

That being said, I’m not sure why you feel the NEED to prove anything to me. In fact, the harder you try, the more detailed info you post only makes you seem more desperate, which actually makes you less believable. I’ve read a lot of your posts and, while I’m aware that people’s online persona can be very different than their in person self, you just seem to spout a lot of nonsense. That track record makes everything you say come into question. That’s just my opinion. That doesn’t make it fact.

Nothing personal but I’m still calling bullshit on your personal typhoid Mary cohort of close friends and relatives story though. But I’ve been wrong before and I’ll probably be wrong again. The truth is, I’ll probably never know for sure if you’re as full of it as you seem…and I’m okay with that.

I hope there are no hard feelings. There are certainly none on my end. 🤙


----------



## Midnight Rider

allthumbs56 said:


> You mention that you all had the symptoms but did any of your family members actually test positive or is it just your collected surmise based on living through it?


I really don't know how much clearer I can make my points other than we all lived through it including my sister who had been a Registered nurse in Ontario for over 30 years.I remember her telling me that she had talked to a couple Doctors at Windsor Regional Hospital and they were of the opinion that there was a high possibility the infection was Covid based on what they knew at the time.There were no tests available at that time or any that I was aware of during the earliest acknowledgments that the virus existed here in Canada.

It appears the first approved Antigen testing in Canada was in October of 2020.
First antigen rapid test for COVID-19 gets Canadian approval

All I can say is if anyone should start to feel ill and that infection starts to feel a little different than the average flu symptoms ,that we are certainly all familiar with, to go and compare how you feel to the known Covid symptom list which will quickly reveal that you have contracted the virus. That is what we did and it was indisputable. Those early lists of Covid symptoms are the same and have grown over the last two years as you know.


----------



## Wardo

In late January of last year I had a flu like no other in my experience and it knocked me on my ass for 2 weeks. I tried to go back after the first week and ended up taking another week off. One of my law clerks had the same thing. The doctor that I go to told me he figured the lucky 19 had been here since late fall of the previous year and that’s probably what I had.


----------



## Midnight Rider

JBFairthorne said:


> @Midnight Rider Just for the record, I never took your reply as a personal attack and I certainly didn’t report it.
> 
> That being said, I’m not sure why you feel the NEED to prove anything to me. In fact, the harder you try, the more detailed info you post only makes you seem more desperate, which actually makes you less believable. I’ve read a lot of your posts and, while I’m aware that people’s online persona can be very different than their in person self, you just seem to spout a lot of nonsense. That track record makes everything you say come into question. That’s just my opinion. That doesn’t make it fact.
> 
> Nothing personal but I’m still calling bullshit on your personal typhoid Mary cohort of close friends and relatives story though. But I’ve been wrong before and I’ll probably be wrong again. The truth is, I’ll probably never know for sure if you’re as full of it as you seem…and I’m okay with that.
> 
> I hope there are no hard feelings. There are certainly none on my end. 🤙


I find it interesting that how so many post on a daily basis their concerns of Covid and the warning signs that suggest you have contracted the virus,... then when people post that they have experienced the infection of Covid with several of the listed symptoms Health Canada tells us to look for the conversation quickly shifts to,... you're full of shit.

Believe me, the last thing I am interested in is proving anything to you. You asked for a full and more detailed explanation and I delivered it to you. The fact that you don't believe what I have stated is of no concern to me,... life goes on.

My skin is fairly thick and this is why I don't mind standing alone when having various discussions within this thread and will diligently stand up for what I believe to be the truth,... just as you do.

So no,... there are no hard feelings as I know I am speaking the truth.


----------



## tomee2

Coronavirus Was In U.S. Weeks Earlier Than Previously Known, Study Says


The discovery, uncovered after analyzing blood donations from nine states, strengthens evidence that the coronavirus was quietly spreading around the world before health officials were aware.




www.npr.org





I haven't followed this since last year, but earlist covid was possibly in north america seems to possibly be early dec 2019.


----------



## Midnight Rider

tomee2 said:


> Coronavirus Was In U.S. Weeks Earlier Than Previously Known, Study Says
> 
> 
> The discovery, uncovered after analyzing blood donations from nine states, strengthens evidence that the coronavirus was quietly spreading around the world before health officials were aware.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't followed this since last year, but earlist covid was possibly in north america seems to possibly be early dec 2019.


Makes perfect sense to me,... this should help convince some doubters that people could have contracted the virus in January and or February of 2020.


----------



## Wardo

The virus originated during the summer of 2019 when some roofers in Fort Mac were doing gain of function testing with a 45 year old unopened two-four of molson ex that they found in the attic of a house that they were working on.


----------



## Midnight Rider

allthumbs56 said:


> Light at the end of the tunnel?
> 
> UPDATED: Ontario to lift all COVID-19 measures by end of March, including mask mandate | National Post
> 
> or Alberta all over again?


Stay positive,... light at the end of the long dark tunnel.


----------



## GuitarT

tomee2 said:


> Coronavirus Was In U.S. Weeks Earlier Than Previously Known, Study Says
> 
> 
> The discovery, uncovered after analyzing blood donations from nine states, strengthens evidence that the coronavirus was quietly spreading around the world before health officials were aware.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't followed this since last year, but earlist covid was possibly in north america seems to possibly be early dec 2019.


My wife suffers from some chronic respiratory problems which on occasion, when she's sick, leads to her visiting emergency at our local hospital. The last time she was in was just before Christmas of 2019. When she arrived at the hospital and described her symptoms she was immediately escorted to a separate room. The doctor that came in to examine her was dressed in head to toe PPE including a mask, face shield and gloves. Never before under the same circumstances had a doctor been anywhere near that geared up when he came in to see her. We found it strange at the time but just brushed it off. Looking back I'd say the front line health care community knew something was up.


----------



## JBFairthorne

Midnight Rider said:


> You asked for a full and more detailed explanation and I delivered it to you. The fact that you don't believe what I have stated is of no concern to me,... life goes on.
> 
> My skin is fairly thick and this is why I don't mind standing alone when having various discussions within this thread and will diligently stand up for what I believe to be the truth,... just as you do.
> 
> So no,... there are no hard feelings as I know I am speaking the truth.


Actually, I never once asked for any further verification. You’re clearly confused. Big surprise there.

Believing something to be true doesn’t necessarily make it true.

i was actually sick at the same time as others here, February 2020. It was obviously the flu. You can spout symptoms (that are virtually identical to many other conditions) all you want, but without a positive test, the simple fact is you don’t KNOW. So stop posting conjecture as fact.

You should really get yourself a megaphone and a box and go stand outside the Eaton’s centre.


----------



## HighNoon

tomee2 said:


> Coronavirus Was In U.S. Weeks Earlier Than Previously Known, Study Says
> 
> 
> The discovery, uncovered after analyzing blood donations from nine states, strengthens evidence that the coronavirus was quietly spreading around the world before health officials were aware.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't followed this since last year, but earlist covid was possibly in north america seems to possibly be early dec 2019.


It's more like the end of October 2019 with the returning military personnel who attended the Military World Games in Wuhan for the previous two weeks (Oct.18-27).


----------



## Guitar101

I hate to burst your bubble but I'm pretty sure I had Covid 18 before you guys got Covid 19. I felt terrible for about 3 weeks. I never did get Covid 19 so the Covid 18 antibodies must have worked for both viruses.


----------



## Midnight Rider

JBFairthorne said:


> Actually, I never once asked for any further verification. You’re clearly confused. Big surprise there.
> 
> Believing something to be true doesn’t necessarily make it true.
> 
> i was actually sick at the same time as others here, February 2020. It was obviously the flu. You can spout symptoms (that are virtually identical to many other conditions) all you want, but without a positive test, the simple fact is you don’t KNOW. So stop posting conjecture as fact.
> 
> You should really get yourself a megaphone and a box and go stand outside the Eaton’s centre.












Man,... I really must have struck a sensitive nerve,... didn't take much either,... watch that blood pressure now.

Let it goooooo cowboy,... breath in,...breath out,🧘‍♂️,...lol


----------



## JBFairthorne

Actually I’m fine. Thanks for asking. I’m not sure what there was about my post that even seems remotely like I’m upset in any way. If it helps you cope to think otherwise, please feel free to do so. Perhaps it was the voices in your head that were desperately seeking verification. Personally, I was looking for the exact opposite. Clearly you’re easily confused.


----------



## allthumbs56

Guitar101 said:


> I hate to burst your bubble but I'm pretty sure I had Covid 18 before you guys got Covid 19. I felt terrible for about 3 weeks. I never did get Covid 19 so the Covid 18 antibodies must have worked for both viruses.


Wishful thinking  

_"If you are about truth, logic, and common sense, just go to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) website where you’ll find the following rationale for the Covid-19 name: “the disease caused by the virus was named Covid-19 (COronVIrusDisease-2019) to show that it was discovered in 2019.” Indeed, the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV2) first emerged in the year right before 2020, which happened to be 2019. The virus bears the name SARS-CoV2 because the virus is similar to but not the same as the original SARS virus that first emerged in 2002."_​​








Ted Nugent Mentions 18 Covids, That’s Not How Covid-19 Got Its Name


On a Facebook Live video, Ted Nugent asked why there weren't shut downs for Covid one through 18.




www.forbes.com


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> Ted Nugent Mentions 18 Covids, That’s Not How Covid-19 Got Its Name
> 
> 
> On a Facebook Live video, Ted Nugent asked why there weren't shut downs for Covid one through 18.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com


This guy actually took sweaty teddy seriously? and wrote about it?!   








How about the Kardashians? Why aren't their thoughts being shared with humanity?
I smell a conspiracy. 


*edit
I will admit though, I laughed at this;

_He said, “I believe that medical examiners in all 50 states have gone, ‘ah I put down on the death certificate that he died of asphyxiation but they made me put Covid.’” He proceeded with other “examples” *without providing any real evidence supporting them:* “Well, this guy was stabbed to death but they made me put down Covid. This guys was run over by a tandem gravel truck doing a four-wheel drift and the crows be pecking at your flesh but they made me put down Covid-19.’” _


----------



## SWLABR

laristotle said:


> This guy actually took sweaty teddy seriously? and wrote about it?!
> View attachment 384828
> 
> How about the Kardashians? Why aren't their thoughts being shared with humanity?
> I smell a conspiracy.
> 
> 
> *edit
> I will admit though, I laughed at this;
> 
> _He said, “I believe that medical examiners in all 50 states have gone, ‘ah I put down on the death certificate that he died of asphyxiation but they made me put Covid.’” He proceeded with other “examples” *without providing any real evidence supporting them:* “Well, this guy was stabbed to death but they made me put down Covid. This guys was run over by a tandem gravel truck doing a four-wheel drift and the crows be pecking at your flesh but they made me put down Covid-19.’” _


There was a certain man, living in a certain white house saying he told people to not write "Covid-19" as a cause of death. "Then our numbers would be_ better"._

I hadn't heard of it going the other way. But, I wouldn't need much convincing.


----------



## allthumbs56

SWLABR said:


> There was a certain man, living in a certain white house saying he told people to not write "Covid-19" as a cause of death. "Then our numbers would be_ better"._
> 
> I hadn't heard of it going the other way. But, I wouldn't need much convincing.


Depends on what you want your narrative to be. If you want to subject the masses to full-on governmental control then you favour the "More Cases and Deaths Cabal/Great Reset Scenario". If you're more "Trumpy/Uber Right Wing". "Not a virus, not a big deal, just a cold/MY BODY scenario" then you want less deaths attributed to covid.

Pick yur choose.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

allthumbs56 said:


> Depends on what you want your narrative to be.


World reports are the evidence of what the truth is. 99% of them are reporting a pandemic. That is the governments, medical facilities, and scientists, including the WHO. When did even 10% of countries and their associated agencies ever agree on anything? Crap, even during the world wars there were squabbles within axis and ally counties.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> World reports are the evidence of what the truth is. 99% of them are reporting a pandemic. That is the governments, medical facilities, and scientists, including the WHO. When did even 10% of countries and their associated agencies ever agree on anything? Crap, even during the world wars there were squabbles within axis and ally counties.


Yup - I agree. It just seems that people that want to fight this thing (ie. 'Anti-vax/etc.) want to get hung up or muddy the waters to discredit anything they can find. 

To me, in the big picture, dying "of covid" or "with covid" probably don't skew the numbers that much - and certainly don't matter to the dead. I don't understand the need to complicate this - here's a pandemic, here's a vaccine, let's get it over with. The relatively small percentage of people opposed are the source of thousands of memes and links and obscure expert testimonial and firings and rights and resets and cabals and "my bodies". What a lot of effort compared to 10 seconds for a jab.


----------



## mhammer

Got my flu shot on Saturday. Shoulder discomfort was indistinguishable from covid vaccine shot, both in terms of degree and duration (it's gone now). That's what vaccines of any type do. We don't remember our preschool vaccine shots, so we can't compare.


----------



## mhammer

tomee2 said:


> Coronavirus Was In U.S. Weeks Earlier Than Previously Known, Study Says
> 
> 
> The discovery, uncovered after analyzing blood donations from nine states, strengthens evidence that the coronavirus was quietly spreading around the world before health officials were aware.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.npr.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't followed this since last year, but earlist covid was possibly in north america seems to possibly be early dec 2019.


Examination of retrospective cases and tissue samples tends to find much earlier evidence of cases than was thought for pretty much ANY previously unknown disease. After all if you don't know it exists, and if the symptoms are not highly distinctive and centrally collated, how would anyone be able to diagnose or test for it?

Case in point, the bacterium "legionella" (the source of "Legionnaires disease") was largely unknown prior to a noteworthy 1976 outbreak at an American Legion convention in a Philadelphia hotel. It had existed prior to that outbreak, but no one knew about it because one of the distinguishing features of legionella is that it does NOT pick up the stain from one of the routine diagnostic staining procedures in hospital medical labs. So lab folks couldn't see it, and infected individuals were simply thought to have contracted pneumonia, and received boilerplate treatment. It was that hotel outbreak that led to the discovery of the bacterium and its risk factors.

Did anyone know that SARS Covid2 existed? Was it in anyone's diagnostic manual? No. It's never until one gets a significant corpus of cases, and collation of clinical cases across multiple locales or hospitals that existing diseases get "discovered". They were likely there all along, but we didn't know to look for them and easily confused them with other things.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> Examination of retrospective cases and tissue samples tends to find much earlier evidence of cases than was thought for pretty much ANY previously unknown disease. After all if you don't know it exists, and if the symptoms are not highly distinctive and centrally collated, how would anyone be able to diagnose or test for it?
> 
> Case in point, the bacterium "legionella" (the source of "Legionnaires disease") was largely unknown prior to a noteworthy 1976 outbreak at an American Legion convention in a Philadelphia hotel. It had existed prior to that outbreak, but no one knew about it because one of the distinguishing features of legionella is that it does NOT pick up the stain from one of the routine diagnostic staining procedures in hospital medical labs. So lab folks couldn't see it, and infected individuals were simply thought to have contracted pneumonia, and received boilerplate treatment. It was that hotel outbreak that led to the discovery of the bacterium and its risk factors.
> 
> Did anyone know that SARS Covid2 existed? Was it in anyone's diagnostic manual? No. It's never until one gets a significant corpus of cases, and collation of clinical cases across multiple locales or hospitals that existing diseases get "discovered". They were likely there all along, but we didn't know to look for them and easily confused them with other things.


What you say is quite true. I was, however, surprised to see that the article dates back to last December.


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> certainly don't matter to the dead ..
> What a lot of effort compared to 10 seconds for a jab.


Makes one wonder if those that did die because of the vaccine would like to have those 10 seconds back to reconsider?


----------



## mhammer

"_I was, however, surprised to see that the article dates back to last December._ " Dec. 2020. By that point, we had known what it was for a good 10 months, and there were tissue samples and lab results from those folks who may have been hospitalized for something diagnosed as something else the previous November or October.

But I think it goes to show the naivete and folly of thinking that if one closes off a border that one can prevent a disease from entering. By the time one has begun identifying the pathogen, it has already entered and is spreading internally. If it was 1870 and the only people entering were coming by boat, arriving at one or two very specific ports, that would be one thing. But people are coming and going by all different means of transportation from very far away places, constantly, and entering here and there. I suppose if you're Luxemburg or Monaco, you might be able to swing it. And the people who go back and forth from here to other places also mingle with people from somewhere else who have come to those places the locals may have visited. Finally, as I've mentioned earlier, you can't simply close the borders to Canadian citizens who'd like to leave wherever they are and come home, where it's safer. Long story short, there's simply no geographic isolation anymore.


----------



## tomee2

mhammer said:


> "_I was, however, surprised to see that the article dates back to last December._ " Dec. 2020. By that point, we had known what it was for a good 10 months, and there were tissue samples and lab results from those folks who may have been hospitalized for something diagnosed as something else the previous November or October.
> 
> But I think it goes to show the naivete and folly of thinking that if one closes off a border that one can prevent a disease from entering. By the time one has begun identifying the pathogen, it has already entered and is spreading internally. If it was 1870 and the only people entering were coming by boat, arriving at one or two very specific ports, that would be one thing. But people are coming and going by all different means of transportation from very far away places, constantly, and entering here and there. I suppose if you're Luxemburg or Monaco, you might be able to swing it. And the people who go back and forth from here to other places also mingle with people from somewhere else who have come to those places the locals may have visited. Finally, as I've mentioned earlier, you can't simply close the borders to Canadian citizens who'd like to leave wherever they are and come home, where it's safer. Long story short, there's simply no geographic isolation anymore.


To your point, travel restrictions "worked" in New Zealand and Australia with tough measures and heavily controlled flights and quarantines. Covid got in anyway.


----------



## Midnight Rider

tomee2 said:


> To your point, travel restrictions "worked" in New Zealand and Australia with tough measures and heavily controlled flights and quarantines. Covid got in anyway.


Match of the century,... Covid 19 vs Homosapiens innate and adaptive immune systems,... winner take all.
There are too many variables to control the spread of any virus due to the current status of global interaction and the interdependency we have created,... there is nowhere to run or hide,... unless of course you set up shop in the remotest of areas in the country of which you reside and become a full on Homesteader.

I suppose those who are full time Homesteaders are currently the safest from contracting the virus if they can avoid any contact with the outside world,... those lucky bastards, lol.

Tried the half-Homesteader thing 30 years ago while living in the remote area of Kenora, Northwest Ontario, it was extremely challenging and time consuming up and above of holding down a job,... couldn't imagine the effort needed to do it full time,... probably many 14 to 16 hour days.

Anyways,... I'll put my money on the Homosapiens finishing as the victors,... tried, tested and true for 200,000+ years,🏆


----------



## mhammer

Midnight Rider said:


> Match of the century,... Covid 19 vs Homosapiens innate and adaptive immune systems,... winner take all.
> There are too many variables to control the spread of any virus due to the current status of global interaction and the interdependency we have created,... there is nowhere to run or hide,... unless of course you set up shop in the remotest of areas in the country of which you reside and become a full on Homesteader.
> 
> I suppose those who are full time Homesteaders are currently the safest from contracting the virus if they can avoid any contact with the outside world,... those lucky bastards, lol.
> 
> Tried the half-Homesteader thing 30 years ago while living in the remote area of Kenora, Northwest Ontario, it was extremely challenging and time consuming up and above of holding down a job,... couldn't imagine the effort needed to do it full time,... probably many 14 to 16 hour days.
> 
> Anyways,... I'll put my money on the Homosapiens finishing as the victors,... tried, tested and true for 200,000+ years,🏆


One would have thought that Saskatchewan would have been the safest bet, given that it sometimes seems like one's closest neighbour lives 5km away. But with a population a little larger than Saskatchewan's, Ottawa has less than 1/10 the case count, and room in the ICU.

Travel restrictions in New Zealand actually did work...until folks thought they were "safe" and started getting sloppy. It didn't help that NZ didn't mount any sort of large-scale immunization program _*because*_ they thought they were "safe" and didn't need it. Sometimes it feels like asking a teen before they head out if their homework's done. "Yeah, pretty much".


----------



## mhammer

Interesting, if somewhat aggressive, article in The Atlantic on Ivermectin and the research supporting its use. The Real Scandal About Ivermectin

The author expresses not a small amount of frustration in his attempts to get information, and especially data, from researchers. It's more of an exasperation with the state of scientific journal scrutiny at the present time, than anything else, although it does tend to undermine strong claims about ivermectin as having a great track record as a Covid-19 prophylactic and treatment. He understands that the present circumstances nudge journal editors and reviewers to kind of sort of rush things into print and on-line publishing. But that doesn't unfurrow his brow very much. Bottom line: check it out, but don't bet the farm on ivermectin.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> Interesting, if somewhat aggressive, article in The Atlantic on Ivermectin and the research supporting its use. The Real Scandal About Ivermectin
> 
> The author expresses not a small amount of frustration in his attempts to get information, and especially data, from researchers. It's more of an exasperation with the state of scientific journal scrutiny at the present time, than anything else, although it does tend to undermine strong claims about ivermectin as having a great track record as a Covid-19 prophylactic and treatment. He understands that the present circumstances nudge journal editors and reviewers to kind of sort of rush things into print and on-line publishing. But that doesn't unfurrow his brow very much. Bottom line: check it out, but don't bet the farm on ivermectin.


Interesting indeed. But it left me wondering how much knowledge I'd actually acquired. 5 out of 30 studies reviewed were highly suspect and all 5 were "pro-ivermectin". So I learned not to trust studies? Did I learn anything about the effectiveness of Ivermectin? I don't know .................


----------



## tdotrob

Or you know, like stated earlier in the thread, the people making ivermectin drugs already say it’s not effective against the Rona so I guess I’d listen to them, cause sure as shit if it was they wouldn’t mind profiting billions from it instead of putting the exact opposite on their own websites.


----------



## Choo5440

More so than the specific effectiveness of ivermectin, the article is talking about the underlying motives of those who write these papers in the first place.

Some are actively working to further knowledge
Some are trying to publish stuff to keep a job 
Some are trying to publish for recognition to get a job
Some are trying to publish for a payday - getting internet famous has (unfortunately) become a legitimate job these days

aside from the first group, the rest can cut corners, lie, cheat, steal to get work out there.

at the same time, many people are trying to actively gain more knowledge about covid-19. Everything published about it then becomes harder to slip past.

What the writer is suggesting is that everyone treat all scientific articles with a healthy dose of skepticism.


----------



## mhammer

Chris,
I guess it's about thinking you've taken a handoff and can run through the defensive line for a touchdown, only to look down and find you have a shoe in your hands, rather than the football. Doesn't mean you were ill-intentioned or dishonest. But all the same, it doesn't count as moving the ball forward OR a first down.

That's sort of the point of the article. We'd like to _think_ that published research in the midst of an emergency has taught us something of value that we can depend on, and quickly move forward on that basis. And it's not like people are being deliberately deceptive. After all, who would stand to benefit from finding support for a drug that is cheap and widely available? But the reality is that traditional scientific publication used to take a long time. If you submited to a higher profile journal - say one that published 4 times a year with maybe 4-6 papers in each issue - your paper might take 8 months of review to be accepted and then sit on the stack before showing up in print 2 or more years later. But that was an environment where the motive was to understand...eventually.

In the meantime...
a) the world is currently in an emergency and desperately seeking information, sometimes with few filters on,
b) many, if not all, journals have gone electronic and are quite willing to treat pre-prints as legit (we've seen plenty of papers discussed, re: Covid, with the qualifier "Has not been peer-reviewed yet")
c) there has been an explosion of 4th-tier pay-for-print "journals", many of which investigative journalists have found would publish pure poppycock without any questions asked.

Our pet bunny will constantly try and get into my office. As a member of his species (we think it's a he), he's a bit of a diversity-seeker, and will try any new food before deciding that it's not for him (he gave celery leaves a chance before giving them a thumbs-down). But that also means he finds a piece of masking tape on the floor of my office, or a snipped bit of wire insulation, and starts gobbling it. Not everything we hastily consume has nutritional value. And I suppose the hungrier one is, the less discriminating one becomes.

Maybe there's something to this ivermectin thing, as a fallback position, where vaccination is hard to come by because of geography, access to refrigeration, supply shortages, or simply national budget. Conceivably, it _might_ be able to do some good, if not quite as much as hoped for, when safe dosages are observed. As the author implies, the existing research does not provide the strong support some think. At the same time, neither does it seem to indicate that judicious use would be tantamount to mass suicide. But the vigor with which some have adopted questionable research as "strong" support for abandoning or rejecting vaccine is a whole other matter.


----------



## mhammer

Choo5440 said:


> More so than the specific effectiveness of ivermectin, the article is talking about the underlying motives of those who write these papers in the first place.
> 
> Some are actively working to further knowledge
> Some are trying to publish stuff to keep a job
> Some are trying to publish for recognition to get a job
> Some are trying to publish for a payday - getting internet famous has (unfortunately) become a legitimate job these days
> 
> aside from the first group, the rest can cut corners, lie, cheat, steal to get work out there.
> 
> at the same time, many people are trying to actively gain more knowledge about covid-19. Everything published about it then becomes harder to slip past.
> 
> What the writer is suggesting is that everyone treat all scientific articles with a healthy dose of skepticism.


If one follows/examines the medical research literature, it is not uncommon for a single paper to have 10 or more co-authors. One or two of them will be the principal investigators. Two or three will be their graduate students, who did the actual work, while one may be a lab tech on staff. The remainder will tend to be someone who let you use their equipment (that they were able to get with their grant but you can't afford with yours) in a quid pro quo for a co-authorship. Because so much is riding on having yet more and more publications, in order to compete with others who also have more and more publications, so that you can score a job, a grant, or tenure, this is simply accepted practice. I will also decline to let university and hospital comms people off the hook. They have a habit of tarting up and encouraging disclosure of even the frothiest research if they feel it will enhance the institution's image and possibly attract endowments or other grants.

It's a jungle out there, and it's a very strong current to try and swim against, no matter how pure-of-heart one is.


----------



## laristotle

mhammer said:


> c) there has been an explosion of 4th-tier pay-for-print "journals", many of which investigative journalists have found would publish pure poppycock without any questions asked.


Predatory journals?

Opinion: I Published a Fake Paper in a ‘Peer-Reviewed’ Journal

_A dubious education journal invited me to submit a manuscript that would undergo “rigorous” review. It was far too easy.

I concocted seven pages of flapdoodle, including references — loosely following the plot of the TV series “Breaking Bad” — about the educational value of high school students driving into the desert and making drugs.

The paper was ridiculous. I claimed that New Mexico is part of the Galapagos Islands, that craniotomy is a legitimate means of assessing student learning, and that all my figures were made in Microsoft Paint. At one point, I lamented that our research team was unable to measure study participants’ “cloacal temperatures.” Any legitimate peer reviewer who bothered to read just the abstract would’ve tossed the paper in the garbage (or maybe called the police). That is, if they even got past the title page, which listed my coauthors as “Breaking Bad” lead characters Walter White and Jesse Pinkman._


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> Predatory journals?
> 
> Opinion: I Published a Fake Paper in a ‘Peer-Reviewed’ Journal
> 
> _A dubious education journal invited me to submit a manuscript that would undergo “rigorous” review. It was far too easy.
> 
> I concocted seven pages of flapdoodle, including references — loosely following the plot of the TV series “Breaking Bad” — about the educational value of high school students driving into the desert and making drugs.
> 
> The paper was ridiculous. I claimed that New Mexico is part of the Galapagos Islands, that craniotomy is a legitimate means of assessing student learning, and that all my figures were made in Microsoft Paint. At one point, I lamented that our research team was unable to measure study participants’ “cloacal temperatures.” Any legitimate peer reviewer who bothered to read just the abstract would’ve tossed the paper in the garbage (or maybe called the police). That is, if they even got past the title page, which listed my coauthors as “Breaking Bad” lead characters Walter White and Jesse Pinkman._


That was equal parts shocking and entertaining 👍


----------



## mhammer

Keep in mind that, if one needs a job for the coming year after the post-doc runs out, and a paper submitted to a prestigious journal wouldn't appear in print for 2 more years...maybe, if they rushed it...one begins to view "predatory" journals as a next best thing. I'm not justifying it, but we can't keep churning out more Ph.D.s than there are jobs for them. And those on academic search committees and grant-review committees need to have a black-list of such journals, to be able to look through a candidate's list of publications with a more scrupulous eye.


----------



## Midnight Rider

mhammer said:


> One would have thought that Saskatchewan would have been the safest bet, given that it sometimes seems like one's closest neighbour lives 5km away. But with a population a little larger than Saskatchewan's, Ottawa has less than 1/10 the case count, and room in the ICU.
> 
> Travel restrictions in New Zealand actually did work...until folks thought they were "safe" and started getting sloppy. It didn't help that NZ didn't mount any sort of large-scale immunization program _*because*_ they thought they were "safe" and didn't need it. Sometimes it feels like asking a teen before they head out if their homework's done. "Yeah, pretty much".


 I am assuming you are agreeing with what I mentioned in my last post. That those who are totally isolated from the worlds current web of global social interaction and interdependency either by choice or place of birth, (ie. the Sentinelese people), will be immune from ever contracting the virus.

Saskatchewan fits neither of the two aforementioned criteria for total isolation,... aside from any totally isolated full time Homesteaders that may exist in that province or any other location in this country.

Fairly simple concept.


----------



## mhammer

If one is truly the sort of homesteader you depict, as isolated as you depict, then contagious diseases ought not to come one's way, unless one gets bitten by an animal or insect that serves as carrier. And even if one does get bit, who is going to catch it from you if you're out in the middle of nowhere?

I think the difficulty with Saskatchewan and parts of Manitoba is that some confuse "small town" with "totally secluded". When there was a measles outbreak among Hasidic communities in Brooklyn, they also construed their social isolation and insularity as some sort of invisible force field against disease that made vaccination unnecessary. Didn't exactly work out that way. Cripes, how many times have we seen a news item about some grisly crime, and those interviewed routinely go on about how they never thought anything like that could "happen here". I suppose it's an easy trap to fall into when the contrast between one's own town and those megalopolises you see on TV seems so huge.


----------



## Midnight Rider

_"mhammer"
If one is truly the sort of homesteader you depict, as isolated as you depict, then contagious diseases ought not to come one's way, unless one gets bitten by an animal or insect that serves as carrier. And even if one does get bit, who is going to catch it from you if you're out in the middle of nowhere?_

MR - My initial thoughts exactly,... we agree on this.

_"mhammer"
I think the difficulty with Saskatchewan and parts of Manitoba is that some confuse "small town" with "totally secluded"._

MR - Perhaps some do confuse small town with totally secluded,... but I wouldn't understand as to why or how.
I have lived in small towns of northwestern Ontario with small populations,... and have also spent time in the wilderness of northwestern Ontario totally secluded living in canvas prospector tents for weeks at time while solo timber cruising or months at a time fighting forest fires with a crew of 4 other secluded individuals,... I fully understand the differences between the two, lol.

So again we agree,... two for two,... progress is being made.

Also, during the late 80's took a trip up to the end of lonely Hwy.6 to visit a friend in Thompson, Manitoba for a couple weeks. Although not what one would consider to be a totally secluded destination it certainly felt like you were on the moon,... nice place to visit,... but,....

The drive was about a 1,000km north from the town of Kenora where I was living. There was nothing on Hwy. 6 with the exception of a couple spread out gas stations and one small roadside motel. Only passed a handful of vehicles travelling south during the entire day and no such thing as cell phone service,... had my fingers crossed hoping that the old beat up Jeep truck wouldn't go belly up on me,... or I would have found myself totally isolated on a chilly mid-October Manitoba roadside for a night with a suitcase, box of beer, bag of chips and a rifle,... ahhhh, the good old days, lol.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Law firm might sue CDC over failure to address natural immunity


----------



## allthumbs56

Midnight Rider said:


> totally secluded living in canvas prospector tents for weeks at time while solo timber cruising


A good friend of mine spent his life cruisin' for Manfor out of The Pas. He got used to "lonely" for sure.


----------



## Midnight Rider

allthumbs56 said:


> A good friend of mine spent his life cruisin' for Manfor out of The Pas. He got used to "lonely" for sure.


 Yeah, I have heard of Manfor. I think they are or were responsible for taking care of reforesting near 80% of harvested forests in the area. I believe Tolko is the current lumber mill operating in The Pas.

Never took that left turn off Hwy.6 to The Pas but a friend of mine has a brother by the name of Shaun Keith who lives and works out The Pas for 'Search & Rescue'. I think they mainly focus on rescue at the Hudbay 777 zinc mine in Flin Flon,... probably other mines as well.

Wonder if your friend knows or has ever had a beer with him,... it is a small community of good people.

Not Covid related,... but I wouldn't think they have too much to worry about up there as they are 600km or so north of Winnipeg.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Ontario is setting to release a plan for a 3rd booster shot next week.

https://globalnews.ca/news/8335319/ontario-covid-vaccine-third-dose-booster-plan/


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> Ontario is setting to release a plan for a 3rd booster shot next week.
> 
> https://globalnews.ca/news/8335319/ontario-covid-vaccine-third-dose-booster-plan/


I expect that in the next couple months they'll be made for the general population. I'm fine with that. Maggs and I are booked for Cuba in late March - I wouldn't mind a booster before that.

Or sooner:









Plan for third doses for 'all Ontarians' expected next week


The Ontario government is set to announce next week when everyone in the province will have access to their third dose of the COVID-19 vaccine.




toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## Wardo

I wonder when they will issue the 4th dose; early next summer maybe.


----------



## mhammer

I get my flu shot annually. Not because flu vaccine "doesn't work", but because flu virus keep mutating and changing, and viral immunity tends to be somewhat specific, so it's an ongoing catchup game. I would hope folks understand that booster shots are not employed because vaccines "don't work", but because many immunities wane (though not all do), and because viruses can be moving targets.

If a person engages in a fitness program, then slacks off and becomes chubby and sluggish, we don't say that fitness programs "don't work". We say that staying fit requires maintenance and continuity-of-practice. Same thing with immunity.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Probably be a while until I am due for my 3rd jab. I think they recommend 6 months from the 2nd to the 3rd. The 3rd is a 1/2 dose I believe.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Wardo said:


> I wonder when they will issue the 4th dose; early next summer maybe.


----------



## Thunderboy1975

If you've watched this episode you'll know...


----------



## Kenmac

A friend of mine who works part time for the TTC sent me a link to this story today:

Cuts expected in TTC service when COVID-19 vaccine mandate kicks in: agency | CBC News


----------



## Wardo

With revenue down 50% they will want to cut back anyway.


----------



## allthumbs56

Hopefully I'm wrong but it looks like we might be on our way up again in Ontario for cases. On Oct 27th we reached a low of 2978 active cases and it's been reaching upward since, to hit 3159 as of today. Not significant as of yet - but definitely in the wrong direction. Good news is that another 49,000 Canadians got their first jabs over the weekend.


----------



## Midnight Rider

allthumbs56 said:


> Hopefully I'm wrong but it looks like we might be on our way up again in Ontario for cases. On Oct 27th we reached a low of 2978 active cases and it's been reaching upward since, to hit 3159 as of today. Not significant as of yet - but definitely in the wrong direction. Good news is that another 49,000 Canadians got their first jabs over the weekend.


Looked at the big numbers picture from yesterday and today,... I'm feeling very good and positive about the situation going forward.


----------



## Brian Johnston

Apparently, these people died of cardiac arrest... young people! Current numbers suggest 8 dead and many 'injured,' but not from trampling... just DROPPING! What could cause a young person to drop from cardiac arrest... hmmmm... maybe sharing the same bad drugs... maybe... hmmmm?

Brian


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456856889850007553

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456896963702509569

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456986475929608201
"Concert in Hell..."


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456898085792124936


----------



## mhammer

Brian Johnston said:


> How do you think they got the emergency jab in place? Vaccines take 4-5 years to be approved, through clinical trials. Can you name all the clinical trials (any) that existed prior to rolling this out, retard?


Do you know why vaccines, or indeed, any medications typically take that long to be approved? If you understood more about how these things do and don't get approved, and WHY things normally take as long as they do, you wouldn't find the helpfully speedy provision of the required data suspicious. It's all a matter of acquiring the data that regulatory agencies insist upon to answer the strict and careful questions they have about anything that seeks approval. Most times, the data is slow in coming, and arrives in dribs and drabs, as clinical data usually does. In this instance, it was abundant, and the manufacturers provided it to regulatory agencies as they acquired it, expediting the process.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Choo5440

Brian Johnston said:


> Apparently, these people died of cardiac arrest... young people! Current numbers suggest 8 dead and many 'injured,' but not from trampling... just DROPPING! What could cause a young person to drop from cardiac arrest... hmmmm... maybe sharing the same bad drugs... maybe... hmmmm?
> 
> Brian
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456856889850007553
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456896963702509569
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456986475929608201
> "Concert in Hell..."
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1456898085792124936


It's called meth. Don't have to share the same supply, an overdose of a stimulant can lead up heart attack. Especially if the person is already in a state of heat exhaustion.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## 2manyGuitars

So a crowd of 50,000 concert-goers rush the stage, crushing people until they can’t move/breathe. Many collapse and 8 die.

...and are you insinuating that the ‘rona vaccine had something to do with it? You’re _extra_ special.
Do you have to wear a helmet when you watch TV?


----------



## Wardo

2manyGuitars said:


> Do you have to wear a helmet when you watch TV?


Students living in residence at the more progressive universities are required to wear helmets when watching television so given time it will become the norm for the population in general.


----------



## mhammer

2manyGuitars said:


> So a crowd of 50,000 concert-goers rush the stage, crushing people until they can’t move/breathe. Many collapse and 8 die.


The ignorance of people at one end of a crowd regarding the other end of the crowd is a phenomenon people have understood for centuries. Here's Brueghel's version from 500 years ago.


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> Do you know why vaccines, or indeed, any medications typically take that long to be approved? If you understood more about how these things do and don't get approved, and WHY things normally take as long as they do, you wouldn't find the helpfully speedy provision of the required data suspicious. It's all a matter of acquiring the data that regulatory agencies insist upon to answer the strict and careful questions they have about anything that seeks approval. Most times, the data is slow in coming, and arrives in dribs and drabs, as clinical data usually does. In this instance, it was abundant, and the manufacturers provided it to regulatory agencies as they acquired it, expediting the process.



Pfft, what do you or anyone else know? We're all just retards who are too stupid to grasp the brilliance of the inbred ignoramus who has been pontificating throughout this thread.


----------



## colchar

2manyGuitars said:


> So a crowd of 50,000 concert-goers rush the stage, crushing people until they can’t move/breathe. Many collapse and 8 die.
> 
> ...and are you insinuating that the ‘rona vaccine had something to do with it? You’re _extra_ special.
> Do you have to wear a helmet when you watch TV?




What do you expect when his parents were so closely related before marriage? You'd think we'd have learned from the Habsburgs, but apparently not.


----------



## Wardo

Rebel flags, rusty cars, educated in bars.
A gutted deer hangs from an oak.
Crystal meth, racist jokes.
They cheat, they steal, they don’t care how you feel.
But you keep comin back so fuck what mom says.

They got alcoholic dogs.
So keep your hands in your pockets
A stolen keg of beer and a hundred bottle rockets.
And if you don’t got no dough.
Don’t come around.

You say they’re screwed, I say they’re fucked.
Watch them self destruct
They don’t mean to be mean.
But they are.

I’m thinking this will be mostly G, C and D.


----------



## tdotrob

Drinkin’ again,
I’m not thinkin’ ahead,
I got that shrinking feeling,
That only grows larger,
Day by day,
Loggers buy lager.

It’s so easy just to fuck it all
and go for the mersyndol,
Or something stronger to get me back
on the wagon I just fell off of,
Another swig,
One last gulp,
One more tablet to pop,
Anything to get me to start
working on what I’ve been putting off

Maybe Chi wrote this for Wardo


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Infection rates climbing pretty quickly in Ontario. Not good.


----------



## Wardo

Jim DaddyO said:


> Infection rates climbing pretty quickly in Ontario. Not good.


Yeah, not good. There’s a bar in Hamilton that just started up again and I like playing there but gonna have to reconsider it.


----------



## mhammer

An item I watched on SKY news from the UK yesterday, profiled a county in Ireland, where the vaccination rate for those over 18 is 99%; one of the highest in the world. But they have started experiencing an increase in cases. It seems that residents have been happily and innocently bopping back and forth to the UK, which has a lower vaccination rate. Additionally, armed with the knowledge that they do have such a high vaccination rate, most of the other public health measures, like mask-wearing and avoiding crowded gatherings at close distance, have been all but abandoned.

Like I keep saying, I will personally continue to mask and distance until such time as the number of cases drops down to a rate we'd be comfortable with if it was malaria, smallpox, measles, tuberculosis, polio, or necrotizing fasciitis. ALL of those continue to exist, but the number of people we could conceivably contract it from is VERY small. Vaccines *work*, and they are a minor miracle in their own way. But they can't carry the entire load, and are a great supplement to the other public health measures, not a *replacement*. Crutches also work. But if you try and use them upside down, you're gonna fall over.


----------



## Paul Running

mhammer said:


> The ignorance of people at one end of a crowd regarding the other end of the crowd is a phenomenon people have understood for centuries. Here's Brueghel's version from 500 years ago.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## mhammer

Yes, let's keep the scent away.
And I think we can safely do that by noting that slipshod behaviours which erode the barrier between the virus and us are undertaken by people with a wide array of political and religious beliefs, as well as attitudes towards vaccination. Clearly county Waterford in Ireland couldn't reach 99% full vaccination if they were opposed to it. But that doesn't stop people from being naive about what being vaccinated can and can't do on its own.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> Infection rates climbing pretty quickly in Ontario. Not good.


Yup - we trended downward in Ontario and reached a low of 2,978 on October 27th. Since then it's been on it's way back up to hit 4,040 today. The EFR has been below 1.0 since September 18th - but today has crossed over the threshold to 1.04. Looks like a new wave is forming but still way below the crest of over 21,000 active cases we had in late May.


----------



## mhammer

There is a concept in social psychology, referred to as "diffusion of responsibility". The concept alludes to the reliable finding that when some outcome is dependent on collective action, individual contribution within a group tends to be less than what the same individual would provide on their own. The most obvious example occurs in the classic tug of war activity, where we find that individuals pull _less_ hard on the rope in larger groups than they do in smaller teams, where more is depending on their individual effort. It's not that they "care" less, but that the feedback they get from their individual effort is diminished in the context of a much larger group. It is that feedback which motivates their effort and persistence.

Eliminating this virus, or at least beating it back such that it poses much less risk to the average person, is dependent on collective effort. And, as something that affects the entire populace, "collective effort" involves the entire populace. The risk created is that individuals can't subjectively experience their individual effort as impacting on the collective result. Like the person who _thinks_ they are pulling on the rope hard, but isn't really pulling all that hard, people are slacking off. Some of it is understandably fatigue with the restrictive measures. But I think some of it is diffusion of responsibility. And like I've said so many times before, a big chunk of the misery in the world begins with "But I was just gonna...", where individuals see their personal actions as well-intentioned, benign, and unlikely to have negative consequences.


----------



## Paul Running

mhammer said:


> Yes, let's keep the scent away.
> And I think we can safely do that by noting that slipshod behaviours which erode the barrier between the virus and us are undertaken by people with a wide array of political and religious beliefs, as well as attitudes towards vaccination. Clearly county Waterford in Ireland couldn't reach 99% full vaccination if they were opposed to it. But that doesn't stop people from being naive about what being vaccinated can and can't do on its own.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> There is a concept in social psychology, referred to as "diffusion of responsibility". The concept alludes to the reliable finding that when some outcome is dependent on collective action,



I don't think there has been anything the whole country (or several countries) have pulled together on since WWll.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> There is a concept in social psychology, referred to as "diffusion of responsibility". The concept alludes to the reliable finding that when some outcome is dependent on collective action, individual contribution within a group tends to be less than what the same individual would provide on their own. The most obvious example occurs in the classic tug of war activity, where we find that individuals pull _less_ hard on the rope in larger groups than they do in smaller teams, where more is depending on their individual effort. It's not that they "care" less, but that the feedback they get from their individual effort is diminished in the context of a much larger group. It is that feedback which motivates their effort and persistence.
> 
> Eliminating this virus, or at least beating it back such that it poses much less risk to the average person, is dependent on collective effort. And, as something that affects the entire populace, "collective effort" involves the entire populace. The risk created is that individuals can't subjectively experience their individual effort as impacting on the collective result. Like the person who _thinks_ they are pulling on the rope hard, but isn't really pulling all that hard, people are slacking off. Some of it is understandably fatigue with the restrictive measures. But I think some of it is diffusion of responsibility. And like I've said so many times before, a big chunk of the misery in the world begins with "But I was just gonna...", where individuals see their personal actions as well-intentioned, benign, and unlikely to have negative consequences.


While we're blaming those who are getting tired of pulling the rope perhaps mention should be made of those who never grabbed hold of the rope in the first place


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> While we're blaming those who are getting tired of pulling the rope perhaps mention should be made of those who never grabbed hold of the rope in the first place


True, but I suspect there are more who _*think*_ they're pulling the rope and are merely holding it, than there are people who never held it in the first place. And it's not disdain, malevolence, or anti-anything sentiments. It's the naive belief that they've done what was requested, everything is perfectly fine, and there's no longer any reason to worry or take precautions because "What could happen?".


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> True, but I suspect there are more who _*think*_ they're pulling the rope and are merely holding it, than there are people who never held it in the first place. And it's not disdain, malevolence, or anti-anything sentiments. It's the naive belief that they've done what was requested, everything is perfectly fine, and there's no longer any reason to worry or take precautions because "What could happen?".


I respectfully disagree with that. The people who have committed are still wearing their masks, still social distancing, and still carrying around all their papers to present when required. In for a penny and in for a pound.

My Maggs and her friend actually hopped the border this morning for a 2 1/2 day shopping trip. They found a place that would do the (useless, in this case) PCR test while they waited - for 50 bucks and set up their (stupid because no one has to quarantine anymore) ARRIVECAN apps on their phones. They're tugging at that rope harder than most of us


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> I respectfully disagree with that. The people who have committed are still wearing their masks, still social distancing, and still carrying around all their papers to present when required. In for a penny and in for a pound.
> 
> My Maggs and her friend actually hopped the border this morning for a 2 1/2 day shopping trip. They found a place that would do the (useless, in this case) PCR test while they waited - for 50 bucks and set up their (stupid becaus eno one has to quarranteen anymore) ARRIVECAN apps on their phones. They're tugging at that rope harder than most of us


It's an empirical question. I don't know that either you or I or more correct, in the absence of data. What I do know is that a great many places, that are open, require proof of vaccination, but once inside it does not seem like they are distancing, or masking as much as is recommended. I know that when I go grocery shopping, people ARE masked and spread out, but then I tend to go during hours when the brunt of customers are grey-haired. Are there age differences between the fully-compliant and "somewhat"-compliant? I suspect so. We do know that authorities have had a harder time corraling younger people into coming for their shots, and the establishments that technically require PoV but can be lax once people come in, cater to those cohorts. But like I say, it's an empirical question that requires data to answer with any conviction.

I would imagine there is a small segment of undetermined size who figure they don't HAVE TO engage in any of the various preventative measures because everyone else is doing so.

And then there are the asymptomatic carriers. Mary Mallon (1869-1938) and the history of typhoid fever


----------



## Paul Running

allthumbs56 said:


> They found a place that would do the (useless, in this case) PCR test while they waited - for 50 bucks


I heard on the "Ontario Today" show that Walgreens will test Canadians, no charge.


----------



## Fred Gifford

well at least Walgreens is living in the real world, God Bless Them


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> It's an empirical question. I don't know that either you or I or more correct, in the absence of data. What I do know is that a great many places, that are open, require proof of vaccination, but once inside it does not seem like they are distancing, or masking as much as is recommended. I know that when I go grocery shopping, people ARE masked and spread out, but then I tend to go during hours when the brunt of customers are grey-haired. Are there age differences between the fully-compliant and "somewhat"-compliant? I suspect so. We do know that authorities have had a harder time corraling younger people into coming for their shots, and the establishments that technically require PoV but can be lax once people come in, cater to those cohorts. But like I say, it's an empirical question that requires data to answer with any conviction.
> 
> I would imagine there is a small segment of undetermined size who figure they don't HAVE TO engage in any of the various preventative measures because everyone else is doing so.
> 
> And then there are the asymptomatic carriers. Mary Mallon (1869-1938) and the history of typhoid fever


I don't know how much you've curtailed your activities. With few exceptions, Maggs, and with no exceptions, me, have not missed a day in the office since Covid hit. Every morning I fill out the form at the door and Maggs emails her version to her HR. I have played few gigs, but the ones I have done have all adhered to procedures - including the most recent on October 30th. Volume cut in half - no dancing - masks on when up from a table. We been to a half dozen restaurants - they've all checked our status and ID. Surprisingly, none have been able to scan that QR code thus far.

So I'd say it's pretty serious, around here, anyway. I will, however mention an experience we had at breakfast at a local diner yesterday that is somewhat related. Just as we sat down at our table, 4 guys came in the door and the young girl went through the spiel. 3 of them presented their info. The 4th stated loudly that he was exempt - but had left his info at home. Not wanting to cause a scene she seated them at a nearby table. The "exempt" one, by way of his conversation was clearly opposed to vaccination quoting all of the stuff I'm so tired of hearing - but he really caught my attention when he announced that had learned from "this expert" who reported that Covid-19 was *actually patented by Pfizer in 1991*. He went on to say that they had also patented their vaccine in 1993. This, of course, has been all kept secret all of these years. THAT'S the closest I've come to encountering someone disregarding protocols in pretty much 18 months.


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> I don't know how much you've curtailed your activities. With few exceptions, Maggs, and with no exceptions, me, have not missed a day in the office since Covid hit. Every morning I fill out the form at the door and Maggs emails her version to her HR. I have played few gigs, but the ones I have done have all adhered to procedures - including the most recent on October 30th. Volume cut in half - no dancing - masks on when up from a table. We been to a half dozen restaurants - they've all checked our status and ID. Surprisingly, none have been able to scan that QR code thus far.
> 
> So I'd say it's pretty serious, around here, anyway. I will, however mention an experience we had at breakfast at a local diner yesterday that is somewhat related. Just as we sat down at our table, 4 guys came in the door and the young girl went through the spiel. 3 of them presented their info. The 4th stated loudly that he was exempt - but had left his info at home. Not wanting to cause a scene she seated them at a nearby table. The "exempt" one, by way of his conversation was clearly opposed to vaccination quoting all of the stuff I'm so tired of hearing - but he really caught my attention when he announced that had learned from "this expert" who reported that Covid-19 was *actually patented by Pfizer in 1991*. He went on to say that they had also patented their vaccine in 1993. This, of course, has been all kept secret all of these years. THAT'S the closest I've come to encountering someone disregarding protocols in pretty much 18 months.


I would hope your local experience (with the exception of Mr. #4) is the broader rule, and mine is the exception.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> I would hope your local experience (with the exception of Mr. #4) is the broader rule, and mine is the exception.


According to the data I think we are doing ok. The example you cited is a trip to the grocery store - where everybody can go, vaccinated or not. Interestingly there is no screening at these doors - or at other essentials - hardware or big boxes like Walmart and Costco. Regardless, I still think that the 80+ percentage of the population that invested in the jab still plays by the rules in these settings. You will, however get all the population in these places - including the 1 in 5 that resist or disbelieve - and those may be who you are seeing. As for social distancing in these places - it's pretty much impossible with how tightly packed the aisles are - every spare square foot is crowded with pallets of sale items. Immpatient people pushing past to get around you to the corn flakes, etc. I feel the least safe in a grocery store - as do you.


----------



## Fred Gifford

I just watched a live feed from the U.S/Canada Border ... after the morning rush it's a ghost town .... just now the bridges are completly empty ... Canada has such a high % of the population vaccinated and yet people still skulk around like it's Martial Law .... been down to Yonge and Dundas lately ?? I was last week, it's sickening, you could fire a cannon down Yonge at high noon and not hit a soul ... empty ... Canada says they have to be " cautious" lifting restrictions ???? it's over people, wake up ... life goes on


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> I feel the least safe in a grocery store - as do you.


Not really. At least where I shop, people are all masked, and leave plenty of space. I'm not compliant with the direction arrows, but those were really to keep people spaced, and most of the time I'm the only person in the aisle, so "right" and "wrong" direction become moot. Folks leave space at the checkout. Was at a Lowe's yesterday, and it was pretty much the same thing.

We don't go out to eat, but our older son lives downtown, beside a street that has several restaurants on that block. Outdoor seating is about to end, but I see a lot of customers sitting close and unmasked. Hard to imagine they will suddenly mask up once dining moves indoors.

Ottawa has a gourmet donut place called "Suzy Q". There's one not far from us. Although they have indoor seating space, they still only do business via the takeout window, and I see spaced outdoor lineups each time I drive by it.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

We have a pretty good vax rate up here I think. Met one local couple who weren't. Nonsense reasoning, I didn't argue. It's not going to change anything what anyone thinks, if you want to go into that store, you wear a mask. Minor gripes around town, but more importantly, there is compliance. 

A couple of instances at the grocery store. They were escorted out. The next nearest grocery store is over an hour away, so don't piss off the only game in town. You would just have to wear a mask at the next one anyway. Nothing would change, just a drive time of hours of your life you'll never get back.


----------



## Wardo

I know some Mennonites who have never been to a doctor in their entire lives; haven't heard from them lately, wonder how they're doing these days.


----------



## mhammer

There were some outbreaks in Manitoba Mennonite communities, that I think may have prompted vaccination in some who had initially declined. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/southern-manitoba-winkler-covid-vaccine-hesitancy-1.6049024


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> There were some outbreaks in Manitoba Mennonite communities, that I think may have prompted vaccination in some who had initially declined. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/southern-manitoba-winkler-covid-vaccine-hesitancy-1.6049024


I haven't heard of an religious reasons to not get vaccinated. I do believe that God was the first guy to promote common sense, after all.


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> I haven't heard of an religious reasons to not get vaccinated


The most morally questionable issue regarding vaccination in Catholicism is using cell lines derived from a voluntary aborted fetus.


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> The most morally questionable issue regarding vaccination in Catholicism is using cell lines derived from a voluntary aborted fetus.


Morally to whom? The Pope is fine with it AFAIK. Also the fetus material was decades old and used in development - not in the production vaccines.


----------



## allthumbs56

Health Canada authorizes Pfizer COVID vaccine booster for adults | Toronto Sun 

I wonder if they'll do the mass clinics again or rely on pharmacies, etc.


----------



## Choo5440

allthumbs56 said:


> Health Canada authorizes Pfizer COVID vaccine booster for adults | Toronto Sun
> 
> I wonder if they'll do the mass clinics again or rely on pharmacies, etc.


Both. I have my booster booked for today through one of the mass clinics in Toronto, but was given options for pharmacies.


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Morally to whom? The Pope is fine with it AFAIK. Also the fetus material was decades old and used in development - not in the production vaccines.


I think he's posing it as a sort of reductio ad absurdum hypothetical. I.E., there's not much within Catholicism itself that would preclude being vaccinated UNLESS a vaccine relied on, or was somehow comprised of, voluntary abortus tissue, which is pretty much well outside the realm of mRNA vaccines.


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> Morally to whom?


Catholics that are pro-life?


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> Catholics that are pro-life?


Then that would just be a personal choice - not one of the Church:









Pope Francis urges people to get vaccinated against Covid-19 - Vatican News


Pope Francis launches a powerful appeal for people to get vaccinated with approved Covid-19 vaccines, calling it “an act of love.”




www.vaticannews.va


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> Then that would just be a personal choice - not one of the Church:


Go ask your local non-vaxxed catholic then.
From what I've read, that's what they're citing.


----------



## keto

allthumbs56 said:


> I haven't heard of an religious reasons to not get vaccinated. I do believe that God was the first guy to promote common sense, after all.


Hutterites, colonies in AB have been a continual source of outbreaks, anecdotally.


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> Go ask your local non-vaxxed catholic then.
> From what I've read, that's what they're citing.


Then again, I would call that a personal choice. I'm surrounded by catholics (been married to two). A "true" catholic kinda pays pretty good attention to what the Pope tells them..


----------



## mhammer

Lest this turn into an anti-Christian rant, note that Hasidic communities in the New York and Long Island area have also been outbreak-prone, and some fundamentalist Islamic commuities in Pakistan that refused vaccination were the source of measles outbreaks. Lord only knows what localized African religions in various countries like Uganda or Zimbabwe are pitching. When *any* religious sect/community becomes too insular and heeds directives from their own leaders, rather than seeking independent opinions and thinking for themselves, you'll find counterproductive fear-based beliefs that risk their health, and occasionally lives (Jonestown much?).

Many have noted the sorts of "echo chambers" that the Internet has fostered, but such you-and-I-believe-but-those-others-are-wrong clusters existed long before the internet. The web and social media simply made it easier for such insular groups to occur and sustain themselves.


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> Then again, I would call that a personal choice.


Sounds about right.
I would guess that all the non-vaxxed will say that and to leave them alone already.


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> Sounds about right.
> I would guess that all the non-vaxxed will say that and to leave them alone already.


Hey Lari, I posted a link about the booster being approved, and responded to Mark's post regarding the government's position on religious exemptions and the Catholic Church's position on getting the jab. That's true and useful information. I'm not making victims of anyone.


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> I'm not making victims of anyone.


Ok.


----------



## laristotle

WHO warns of shortage of 1-2 bln COVID vaccine syringes


There could be a shortage of one to two billion syringes needed to administer COVID-19 vaccinations in 2022 which could also impact routine immunisations and undermine needle safety, the World Health Organisation warned on Tuesday.




www.reuters.com


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> WHO warns of shortage of 1-2 bln COVID vaccine syringes
> 
> 
> There could be a shortage of one to two billion syringes needed to administer COVID-19 vaccinations in 2022 which could also impact routine immunisations and undermine needle safety, the World Health Organisation warned on Tuesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


I wonder why, with today's cleaning resources - combined with our desire to recycle/re-use, there isn't a way for them to be recycled?


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> I wonder why, with today's cleaning resources - combined with our desire to recycle/re-use, there isn't a way for them to be recycled?


A conscientious question. I suspect the requirements for assuring syringe hygiene simply make it uneconomical and also time-consuming. Remember that any sort of re-use program would require that all syringes be collected and brought to a more central facility for cleaning. Your local Shopper's Drug Mart will not have any such capability. As for the needles themselves, the discomfort of needle insertion is a function of the sharpness of the needle tip. Once used, even if scrupulously cleaned, there is no guarantee the tip is as sharp as when new. Back when my days were filled with injecting rats, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th animal would struggle more than the first one who benefited from a brand-new-out-of-the-box needle.

So, while lamentable that such things can't be cleaned and recycled like milk bottles, there are good reasons why that is the case. And if folks had masked, distanced, and gotten even one shot when asked to, no one would have to contend with syringe/needle shortages.


----------



## laristotle

I think that it's more of a case that society has been in a dummy down phase for the past decade or more and are losing the ability to think ahead.


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> I think that it's more of a case that society has been in a dummy down phase for the past decade or more and are losing the ability to think ahead.


As soon as someone mentions that they employ "Critical Thinking" I immediately write them off as a dummy. 😖


----------



## Choo5440

Most things like this are just designed one time use. 

There are two parts in a medical syringe - the needle, and then the syringe is the plastic barrel that holds the injection +plunger 

Biggest issue would be health and safety - those plastic syringes wouldn't hold up to an autoclave to sterilize it.


----------



## laristotle

BROTHEL in Austria provides Covid-19 vaccinations for customerse


Funpalast brothel in Vienna offers clients a 30-minute session, worth 40 euros, in the sexual 'sauna club' with the 'lady of their choice' if they get the vaccine at the on-site clinic.




www.dailymail.co.uk




_Boys as young as 14 are reportedly allowed to use the clinic, provided they are accompanied by an adult. _


----------



## mhammer

Choo5440 said:


> Most things like this are just designed one time use.
> 
> There are two parts in a medical syringe - the needle, and then the syringe is the plastic barrel that holds the injection +plunger
> 
> Biggest issue would be health and safety - those plastic syringes wouldn't hold up to an autoclave to sterilize it.


Yep.

From a waste-reduction perspective, a damn shame. But yep.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> Yep.
> 
> From a waste-reduction perspective, a damn shame. But yep.


Agreed.

I just hope that they somehow get recycled then.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

allthumbs56 said:


> I just hope that they somehow get recycled then.


Biohazard material. I would bet protocol requires it goes to an incinerator.


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> Biohazard material. I would bet protocol requires it goes to an incinerator.


Probably. I'm not sure what happens to sharps, but they get collected separately from other waste


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## Choo5440

yeah, (un)fortunately, most people would prefer not to have a side of HIV/Hepatitis/{insert your nightmare bloodborne disease} with their injection :/

as an aside, I got my covid booster tuesday, got laid out all day yesterday, but functional at work today. Thank goodness I had the day off to recover


----------



## Wardo

Choo5440 said:


> as an aside, I got my covid booster tuesday


What is the recommended time between 2nd and 3rd shots if 1 and 2 were mrna?

Thanks


----------



## Choo5440

Wardo said:


> What is the recommended time between 2nd and 3rd shots if 1 and 2 were mrna?
> 
> Thanks


6 months after, is the guidance I'm seeing. I got my second shot early February, so I'm a bit past that mark. Though my reaction makes me feel better - means I likely have a good number of antibodies still in my system


----------



## Midnight Rider

It's true!,... opinions are like assholes, lol.
I'm curious to find out which ones,(mine included), will be correct and incorrect when the dust settles over the next year or so.
No crystal ball predictions here at GC,... or anywhere for that matter. Time will and always has been the gateway to truth.


----------



## Guitar101

Wardo said:


> What is the recommended time between 2nd and 3rd shots if 1 and 2 were mrna?
> 
> Thanks


https://www.health.gov.on.ca/en/pro...VID-19_vaccine_third_dose_recommendations.pdf

From (Page 11)
Recommendation: At this time a booster dose of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine will be offered for the following groups:
• All Ontarians aged 70 and older. The recommended interval for individuals aged 70+ is ≥6 months (168 days) after the second dose.


----------



## mhammer

And just so we're clear, the recommended 6-month spacing is not because anything _untoward_ happens with a shorter interval. It's a recommended spacing based on average declines in measured antibody levels. In other words, boosters administered within a shorter window tend not to provide as much of an advantage to maintained immunity. Naturally, this will vary from person to person. Some folks will have faster declines from their 2nd shot, while others may not truly require a booster for 8 months or more. But who is going to implement a test-your-antibody-levels program for every single adult in order to determine optimum booster timing? So the strategy is to go for the average, and target those at groupwise greater risk.

The secondary aspect of the strategy is that authorities and international bodies would prefer to conserve doses, so as to strike a balance between sharing with others, and maintaining domestic safety. Limiting who "needs" a booster, and when it can be given, supports that strategy.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> And just so we're clear, the recommended 6-month spacing is not because anything _untoward_ happens with a shorter interval. It's a recommended spacing based on average declines in measured antibody levels. In other words, boosters administered within a shorter window tend not to provide as much of an advantage to maintained immunity. Naturally, this will vary from person to person. Some folks will have faster declines from their 2nd shot, while others may not truly require a booster for 8 months or more. But who is going to implement a test-your-antibody-levels program for every single adult in order to determine optimum booster timing? So the strategy is to go for the average, and target those at groupwise greater risk.
> 
> The secondary aspect of the strategy is that authorities and international bodies would prefer to conserve doses, so as to strike a balance between sharing with others, and maintaining domestic safety. Limiting who "needs" a booster, and when it can be given, supports that strategy.


I'm not sure how this is gonna play out. We're on the verge of giving the jab to a whole new cohort in children 5 - 11 AND giving a booster to every single person who has had two jabs already. All pretty much within the same timeframe. It's gonna be pandemonium all over again.


----------



## mhammer

Chances are pretty good that immunization programs for children will be done out of their school. I recall well lining up in the hallway in elementary school for my jab in the nurse's office, back in the days when schools actually HAD a nurse. Schools don't have nurses on duty anymore, but where else is one likely to find a 6 or 7 year-old these days? So I suspect two different administration streams. Children will receive a smaller dose, so supply shortages should not be an issue. The bigger issue will be parental hovering and reticence.


----------



## bzrkrage

W, t, serious, f.
CBC
“*Deadly COVID-19 spike after church event is 'unfortunate' but part of God's plan, says pastor”*


----------



## laristotle

bzrkrage said:


> W, t, serious, f.
> CBC
> “*Deadly COVID-19 spike after church event is 'unfortunate' but part of God's plan, says pastor”*


_Asked about the three deaths that have been linked to the event, Lake said he was aware deaths had been announced, but denied the connection.

"I don't think it's fair to say that they're as a result of the faith gathering, but rather they're as a result of more liberty being given to people that are doubly vaccinated who still may be carriers of the virus," said Lake._


----------



## allthumbs56

bzrkrage said:


> W, t, serious, f.
> CBC
> “*Deadly COVID-19 spike after church event is 'unfortunate' but part of God's plan, says pastor”*


_ "It's Satan, trying to drag us down."_

Sheesh!

Poor God and Satan get blamed for so many purely stupid human actions.


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> _Asked about the three deaths that have been linked to the event, Lake said he was aware deaths had been announced, but denied the connection.
> 
> "I don't think it's fair to say that they're as a result of the faith gathering, but rather they're as a result of more liberty being given to people that are doubly vaccinated who still may be carriers of the virus," said Lake._


Blame God, blame Satan, blame the vaccinated. Stay away from the mirror


----------



## Paul Running

allthumbs56 said:


> _ "It's Satan, trying to drag us down."_
> 
> Sheesh!
> 
> Poor God and Satan get blamed for so many purely stupid human actions.


God help me, the devil made me do it.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Old vaccines for new infections: Exploiting innate immunity to control COVID-19 and prevent
future pandemics: https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/118/21/e2101718118.full.pdf



Innate immunity in COVID-19: Drivers of pathogenesis and potential therapeutic targets: 
https://apjai-journal.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/5_AP-130121-1037.pdf


----------



## mhammer

Midnight Rider said:


> Old vaccines for new infections: Exploiting innate immunity to control COVID-19 and prevent
> future pandemics: https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/118/21/e2101718118.full.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> Innate immunity in COVID-19: Drivers of pathogenesis and potential therapeutic targets:
> https://apjai-journal.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/5_AP-130121-1037.pdf


To be clear, the authors construe this as something to help out *until* public immunization programs reach a given region or country (many of which are still waiting). They do not treat it as a substitute or in any way "better than" vaccination. I have a bit of a peeve against their use of the word "innate". Perhaps among their peers it means something different, but among those who get their news from rumour and social media, "innate" means you came into the world with it, like instinct. That's an inferential error just waiting to happen.


----------



## Midnight Rider

mhammer said:


> To be clear, the authors construe this as something to help out *until* public immunization programs reach a given region or country (many of which are still waiting). They do not treat it as a substitute or in any way "better than" vaccination. I have a bit of a peeve against their use of the word "innate". Perhaps among their peers it means something different, but among those who get their news from rumour and social media, "innate" means you came into the world with it, like instinct. That's an inferential error just waiting to happen.


*The innate and adaptive immune systems*
Last Update: July 30, 2020; Next update: 2023.
The immune system fights germs and foreign substances on the skin, in the tissues of the body and in bodily fluids such as blood. The immune system is made up of two parts: the innate, (general) immune system and the adaptive (specialized) immune system. These two systems work closely together and take on different tasks.










Go to:
*The innate immune system: Fast and general effectiveness*
The innate immune system is the body's first line of defense against germs entering the body. It responds in the same way to all germs and foreign substances, which is why it is sometimes referred to as the "nonspecific" immune system. It acts very quickly: For instance, it makes sure that bacteria that have entered the skin through a small wound are detected and destroyed on the spot within a few hours. The innate immune system has only limited power to stop germs from spreading, though.
The innate immune system consists of

Protection offered by the skin and mucous membranes
Protection offered by the immune system cells (defense cells) and proteins
Go to:
*Protection offered by the skin and mucous membranes*
All outer and inner surfaces of the human body a key part of the innate immune system. The closed surface of the skin and of all mucous membranes already forms a physical barrier against germs, which protects them from entering. Additionally, chemical substances like acid, enzymes or mucus prevent bacteria and viruses from gaining a foothold. Movements created, for example, by hair-like structures in the bronchi (cilia) or bowel muscles stop germs from settling in the body. Tear fluid, sweat and urine (which flushes the organs of the urinary tract) have a similar effect.
Go to:
*Protection offered by the immune system cells (defense cells) and proteins*
The innate immune system activates special immune system cells and proteins if germs get past the skin and mucous membranes and enter the body.
*What happens during an inflammation?*
When a part of the skin is infected, immune system cells move to the area or immune system cells that are already there are activated. Specific immune system cells release substances into the immediate area that make the blood vessels wider and more permeable. This causes the area around the infection to swell, heat up and redden, and inflammation results. A fever may develop as well. Then the blood vessels expand further and even more immune system cells arrive.
Certain proteins (enzymes) are also activated to help in the immune response (see below).
*Scavenger cells: Neutralizing germs*
Bacteria or viruses that enter the body can be stopped right away by scavenger cells (phagocytes). Scavenger cells are special kinds of white blood cells (leukocytes). These cells enclose germs and "digest" them. The remains of these germs move to the surface of the scavenger cells to be detected by the adaptive immune system.
There are also other types of immune system cells that release substances to kill bacteria and various germs. Both germs and body tissue and immune system cells die and decay during an immune system response. Their remains form pus, a yellowish fluid.
*The role of proteins*
Several proteins (enzymes) help the cells of the innate immune system. A total of nine different enzymes activate one another in a process similar to a chain reaction: One enzyme in the first stage alerts several enzymes of the second stage, each of which again activates several enzymes of the third stage, and so on. This allows immune system responses to escalate very quickly.
The tasks of these enzymes include:

marking germs as targets for scavenger cells,
attracting other immune system cells from the bloodstream,
destroying bacteria cell walls to kill them, and
fighting viruses by destroying the viral envelope (the outermost layer of a virus) or cells that have been infected with viruses.
*Natural killer cells: Searching for changed body cells*
The natural killer cells are the third major part of the innate immune system. They specialize in identifying cells that are infected by a virus or that have become tumorous. To do this, they search for cells that have changes in their surface, and then destroy the cell surface using cell toxins.
Go to:
*The adaptive immune system: Fighting the germs directly*
The adaptive immune system takes over if the innate immune system is not able to destroy the germs. It specifically targets the type of germ that is causing the infection. But to do that it first needs to identify the germ. This means that it is slower to respond than the innate immune system, but when it does it is more accurate. It also has the advantage of being able to "remember" germs, so the next time a known germ is encountered, the adaptive immune system can respond faster.
This memory is also the reason why there are some illnesses you can only get once in your life, because afterwards your body becomes “immune.” It may take a few days for the adaptive immune system to respond the first time it comes into contact with the germ, but the next time the body can react immediately. The second infection is then usually not even noticed, or is at least milder.
The adaptive immune system is made up of:

T lymphocytes in the tissue between the body's cells
B lymphocytes, also found in the tissue between the body's cells
Antibodies in the blood and other bodily fluids
Go to:
*T lymphocytes*
T lymphocytes (also called T cells) are produced in bone marrow and then move to the thymus through the bloodstream, where they mature. The "T" in their name comes from "thymus."
T cells have three main jobs:

They use chemical messengers to activate other immune system cells in order to start the adaptive immune system (T helper cells).
They detect cells infected by viruses or tumorous cells and destroy them (cytotoxic T cells).
Some T helper cells become memory T cells after the infection has been defeated. They can "remember" which germs were defeated and are then ready to activate the adapted immune system quickly if there is another infection.
T cells have detection features on their surfaces that can attach to germs – like a lock that one particular key will fit. The immune system can produce a matching T cell type for each germ in an infection within a few days.
Then if a germ attaches to a matching T cell, the T cell starts to multiply – creating more T cells specialized to that germ. Because only the cells that match the germ multiply, the immune response is customized.
Go to:
*B lymphocytes*
B lymphocytes (B cells) are made in the bone marrow and then mature there to become specialized immune system cells. They take their name from the "B" in "bone marrow." Like the T cells, there are many different types of B cells that match particular germs.
The B cells are activated by the T helper cells: T helper cells contact B cells that match the same germs that they do. This activates the B cells to multiply and to transform themselves into plasma cells. These plasma cells quickly produce very large amounts of antibodies and release them into the blood. Because only the B cells that match the attacking germs are activated, only the exact antibodies that are needed will be produced.
Some of the activated B cells transform into memory cells and become part of the "memory" of the adaptive immune system.
The various cells of the adaptive immune system communicate either directly or via soluble chemical messengers such as cytokines (small proteins). These chemical messengers are mostly proteins and are produced by different cells in the body.
Go to:
*Antibodies*
Antibodies are compounds of protein and sugar that circulate in the bloodstream. They are created by the immune system to fight germs and foreign substances. Antibodies can quickly detect germs and other potentially harmful substances, and then attach to them. This neutralizes the "intruders" and attracts other immune system cells to help. Antibodies are produced by the B lymphocytes. Germs and other substances that can provoke the creation of antibodies are also referred to as "antigens."
An antibody only attaches to an antigen if it matches exactly, like a key in the lock of the antibody. That is how antibodies detect the matching germs to initiate a fast response from the adaptive immune system.
Antibodies have three main functions:

They neutralize germs, e.g. by directly attaching to the cell surfaces of viruses or bacteria, or by attaching to their toxins. This prevents the germs from latching onto the regular cells of the body and infecting them.
They activate other immune system cells by attaching to their surfaces. Scavenger cells are better able to fight off germs that are loaded with antibodies, too.
They activate proteins that help in the immune system response.
The antibodies of the adaptive immune system also support the innate immune system.
Go to:
*Sources*

Brandes R, Lang F, Schmidt R (Ed). Physiologie des Menschen: mit Pathophysiologie. Berlin: Springer; 2019.
Menche N (Ed). Biologie Anatomie Physiologie. München: Urban und Fischer; 2016.
Pschyrembel. Klinisches Wörterbuch. Berlin: De Gruyter; 2017.
IQWiG health information is written with the aim of helping people understand the advantages and disadvantages of the main treatment options and health care services.
Because IQWiG is a German institute, some of the information provided here is specific to the German health care system. The suitability of any of the described options in an individual case can be determined by talking to a doctor. We do not offer individual consultations.
Our information is based on the results of good-quality studies. It is written by a team of health care professionals, scientists and editors, and reviewed by external experts. You can find a detailed description of how our health information is produced and updated in our methods.
The innate and adaptive immune systems - InformedHealth.org - NCBI Bookshelf
© IQWiG (Institute for Quality and Efficiency in Health Care)











*Principles of innate and adaptive immunity*
The macrophages and neutrophils of the innate immune system provide a first line of defense against many common microorganisms and are essential for the control of common bacterial infections. However, they cannot always eliminate infectious organisms, and there are some pathogens that they cannot recognize. The lymphocytes of the adaptive immune system have evolved to provide a more versatile means of defense which, in addition, provides increased protection against subsequent reinfection with the same pathogen. The cells of the innate immune system, however, play a crucial part in the initiation and subsequent direction of adaptive immune responses, as well as participating in the removal of pathogens that have been targeted by an adaptive immune response. Moreover, because there is a delay of 4–7 days before the initial adaptive immune response takes effect, the innate immune response has a critical role in controlling infections during this period.

Principles of innate and adaptive immunity - Immunobiology - NCBI Bookshelf


----------



## Midnight Rider

CORONAVIRUS|Nov 17, 2021,10:29am EST|2,801 views
*Stimulating Innate Immunity Stops SARS-CoV-2 Infection*
William A. Haseltine
Contributor
When the worldwide death toll from Covid-19 surpassed five million two weeks ago, it served as a grim reminder that more than lockdowns and vaccines will be needed to end the pandemic. A new study, available now to read online and due to publish in the Journal of Experimental Medicine next year, offers an approach that could make a vital addition to our current arsenal of anti-SARS-CoV-2 countermeasures.

According to the study, researchers Mao et. al have identified an antiviral drug that activates the innate immune system and appears to have strong prophylactic and therapeutic potential in mice, meaning it could both prevent and treat Covid-19 in humans. Their findings form the latest contribution to a growing body of work on SARS-CoV-2 and innate immunity, the body’s first line of defense against pathogens.
Historically, innate immunity has not been understood as widely or deeply as the body’s second line of defense, the adaptive immune system. Adaptive immunity involves the antibodies—killer T cells, memory B cells, and so on—that have become shorthand, in discussions about vaccines, for protection against the virus. But a series of papers I have analyzed at length in my SARS-CoV-2 immune suppression series for Forbes shows that it is not adaptive immunity but innate immunity that the virus antagonizes so rigorously in the early days of infection. If a drug can stimulate innate immunity and generate protection before SARS-CoV-2 has the opportunity to tamper, it could protect high-risk individuals from severe illness, persistent infection, and death.
Innate immunity is driven by the identification of pathogen-associated molecular patterns, or PAMPs, by pattern recognition receptors that have evolved over the course of the millennia-long battle between viruses and humans. Some of the most prominent pattern recognition receptors include toll-like receptors and retinoic acid-inducible gene I (RIG-I)-like receptors. Detection of PAMPs by these receptors is what activates the signaling pathways that induce production of interferons, interferon-stimulated genes, and inflammatory cytokines, which in turn trigger the adaptive immune response.
The drug tested by Mao et. al in mice models is a RIG-I agonist called stem-loop RNA 14 (SLR14). Prior research had already established that SLR14 generates a robust innate immune response in mice and might yield an equally potent reaction in humans. Mao et. al found that SLR14 administered to mice four hours after infection by wild-type SARS-CoV-2 dramatically mitigated symptoms and improved survival prospects. Mice that didn’t receive the drug, by contrast, succumbed to infection by day eight.

To test whether the drug also works in immunodeficient mice, Mao et. al administered doses to Rag−/− mice, which lack functional B cells and T cells characteristic of the adaptive immune response. Even in Rag−/− mice SLR14 proved successful at lowering viral replication and clearing infection.

That such high levels of neutralization were achieved through activation of innate immunity alone should be impetus enough to investigate the clinical benefits of this approach. Also noteworthy is that SLR14 was successful at reducing mortality and morbidity in mice infected by five SARS-CoV-2 variants, including Alpha, Beta, and Delta. Since studies have shown that SARS-CoV-2 is a virus capable of evolving to become more immune evasive and immunosuppressive, the ability of SLR14 to induce broadly effective protection is significant.

Like other drug therapies that aim to trigger the immune system, SLR14 relies on interferon signaling to generate protection against SARS-CoV-2. In mice models the drug stimulated rapid proliferation of interferons in the respiratory tract, where viral replication typically takes place. It is the correlation between a robust interferon response and antiviral resistance that led some researchers to believe that interferon-based therapies would prove effective at preventing and treating Covid-19, especially in patients with autoantibodies against interferon or inborn defects that compromise interferon signaling. While studies of recombinant interferon drugs showed promise, the cost of treatment regimens would amount to many thousands of dollars for patients—according to one assessment, between $1,120 and $1,962 for one regimen and between $2,156 and $5,887 for another. But SLR14, Mao et. al argue, is a chemically simple synthetic that would be easy to cheaply manufacture on a large scale.
Mao et. al also suggest that other innate immune modulators like poly(I:C) and diABZI, a small molecule drug and STING agonist I have written about previously, would make a useful addition to an anti-SARS-CoV-2 drug strategy. (Though in terms of antiviral activity, SLR14 surpassed diABZI in their study.) If this is true for SARS-CoV-2, it is likely to be the case for many other RNA viruses that simulate the RIG-I immune signaling pathway.
I eagerly await news of how SLR14 performs in humans. In the meantime, researchers and funders would be remiss to overlook the increasingly evident relevance of innate immunity to antiviral drug development. As new variants of SARS-CoV-2 become more exacting in their ability to antagonize our foremost defenses, we must become more rigorous in our efforts to counteract the virus. The difference between a mediocre and life-saving treatment could be a matter of a single molecule.

Full coverage and live updates on the Coronavirus
Follow me on Twitter or LinkedIn.

William A. Haseltine

I am a scientist, businessman, author, and philanthropist. For nearly two decades, I was a professor at Harvard Medical School and Harvard School of Public Health where I founded two academic research departments, the Division of Biochemical Pharmacology and the Division of Human Retrovirology. I am perhaps most well known for my work on cancer, HIV/AIDS, genomics and, today, on COVID-19. My autobiography, My Lifelong Fight Against Disease, publishes this October. I am chair and president of ACCESS Health International, a nonprofit organization I founded that fosters innovative solutions to the greatest health challenges of our day. Each of my articles at Forbes.com will focus on a specific healthcare challenge and offer best practices and innovative solutions to overcome those challenges for the benefit of all.

Stimulating Innate Immunity Stops SARS-CoV-2 Infection

*To read all 16 articles in this series written by William A. Haseltine click on the link below.*
A Thoughtful Way To End The Covid-19 Pandemic (Part 16)


----------



## Guitar101

*Midnight Rider*
You do know that only mhammer and a few shit disturbers read your posts don't you? We have no idea where you are getting your copy/paste material.


----------



## mhammer

Yes, that's what they CALL it, but no one is born with it. Neonates are VERY susceptible to infections because they have no "innate" immunity; their immunities are acquired. What the articles are referring to certainly _forms_ a basic level of protection but develops in response to exposure during one's life. What is "innate" is the* ability* for the relevant cells to* respond* in to infections and develop a generic capacity to attack them. But you don't have the immunities at birth.

What they mean by "innate immunity" is "what's there already", before you got vaccinated or infected with this particular virus. My point is that the "already" doesn't go back to birth.

I'm not disputing what you posted, just trying to differentiate between how the word "innate" may be understood by different communities.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Guitar101 said:


> *Midnight Rider*
> You do know that only mhammer and a few shit disturbers read your posts don't you? We have no idea where you are getting your copy/paste material.


Take a closer look,... I have included the links,... they are right under your nose.


----------



## Guitar101

Midnight Rider said:


> Take a closer look,... I have included the links,... they are right under your nose.


Sorry but I would have to read them to get the links. I'll just continue waiting for my booster shot on Nov 23 and move on.


----------



## Midnight Rider

mhammer said:


> Yes, that's what they CALL it, but no one is born with it. Neonates are VERY susceptible to infections because they have no "innate" immunity; their immunities are acquired. What the articles are referring to certainly _forms_ a basic level of protection but develops in response to exposure during one's life. What is "innate" is the* ability* for the relevant cells to* respond* in to infections and develop a generic capacity to attack them. But you don't have the immunities at birth.
> 
> What they mean by "innate immunity" is "what's there already", before you got vaccinated or infected with this particular virus. My point is that the "already" doesn't go back to birth.
> 
> I'm not disputing what you posted, just trying to differentiate between how the word "innate" may be understood by different communities.


Take a deep breath,... where in my replies have I posted anything that states my difference of opinion?
Are you related in any way to colchar? , lol.

I posted the articles as general information to those on this site who may be interested learning a bit more on how the immune systems work within their own bodies,... nothing more,... nothing less.

It appears there is a 'Hair Trigger' virus breaking through some of the GC forums,... damn,... where's a good Forum adaptive immune system when you need one! ,


----------



## Midnight Rider

Guitar101 said:


> Sorry but I would have to read them to get the links. I'll just continue waiting for my booster shot on Nov 23 and move on.


Hey,... no one here is demanding you read them. I totally support your freedom of choice. Line up for your booster shot,... no one here is judging you.

Just find it interesting how one can form an opinion on something they have not read,... but again,... you do you.


----------



## laristotle

Midnight Rider said:


> Take a closer look,... I have included the links,... they are right under your nose.


An edit may be in order. The link you posted is to the author's cover page. Here's the article link.








Stimulating Innate Immunity Stops SARS-CoV-2 Infection


A new study identified an antiviral drug that activates the innate immune system and appears to have strong prophylactic and therapeutic potential in mice. It could both prevent and treat Covid-19 in humans.




www.forbes.com


----------



## Midnight Rider

laristotle said:


> An edit may be in order. The link you posted is to the author's cover page. Here's the article link.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Stimulating Innate Immunity Stops SARS-CoV-2 Infection
> 
> 
> A new study identified an antiviral drug that activates the innate immune system and appears to have strong prophylactic and therapeutic potential in mice. It could both prevent and treat Covid-19 in humans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.forbes.com


The link was there with my original post at the bottom of the page just before the William A. Haseltine link to part 16 of the series which also includes a selection to all parts of the series. 

Perhaps I should have put the link towards the top of the post,... but that would have made things much too easy for Guitar101,


----------



## mhammer

Midnight Rider said:


> Take a deep breath,... where in my replies have I posted anything that states my difference of opinion?
> Are you related in any way to colchar? , lol.
> 
> I posted the articles as general information to those on this site who may be interested learning a bit more on how the immune systems work within their own bodies,... nothing more,... nothing less.
> 
> It appears there is a 'Hair Trigger' virus breaking through some of the GC forums,... damn,... where's a good Forum adaptive immune system when you need one! ,


You're reading too much into my post. My intent was to ward off mistaken inferences that _others_ might draw, not any sort of comment or criticism on your own reasoning.

My weakness is that imprecise and ambiguous language irritates the hell out of me. And believe me that all my years in government provided a constant source of irritation for just that reason!  But that's a whole other subforum.....


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## laristotle

Ah, to have the political forum back.


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## laristotle

Fully vaccinated NHL team in Ottawa forced to cancel games due to COVID outbreak


It is the first time this fall that a North American pro sports league — basketball, football or hockey — has cancelled games due to COVID




nationalpost.com


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## Midnight Rider

mhammer said:


> My weakness is that imprecise and ambiguous language irritates the hell out of me. And believe me that all my years in government provided a constant source of irritation for just that reason!  But that's a whole other subforum.....


Understood,... I too have worked within the maze of government pretzel logic. Initially worked in the private sector,... where things made sense,... then hopped the fence to the government side,... then hopped back over to the private sector side where I didn't have to do the government brain check routine each day at the front door.

Worked for four separate Ontario Government Ministries and one Ontario Crown Corporation,... that is enough punishment for any one individual to have to endure over a lifetime, .

Oh,... the things I have witnessed, lol.


----------



## Midnight Rider

laristotle said:


> Fully vaccinated NHL team in Ottawa forced to cancel games due to COVID outbreak
> 
> 
> It is the first time this fall that a North American pro sports league — basketball, football or hockey — has cancelled games due to COVID
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


 There was no mention of any high level Covid infection amongst the 10 players and one coach who tested positive,... but it does appear that the testing was unreliable with some players testing positive, then negative and then positive again. I'm assuming we would have heard if any of the players or coach were hospitalized.

Wonder how many false positive tests have occurred within this country and worldwide that have been included in the total number of active cases column since testing began,... or do they incorporate a false positive reduction percentage from the overall equation?

Interesting development with 98 to 99 percent of NHL players being vaccinated.


----------



## mhammer

Midnight Rider said:


> There was no mention of any high level Covid infection amongst the 10 players and one coach who tested positive,... but it does appear that the testing was unreliable with some players testing positive, then negative and then positive again. I'm assuming we would have heard if any of the players or coach were hospitalized.
> 
> Wonder how many false positive tests have occurred within this country and worldwide that have been included in the total number of active cases column since testing began,... or do they incorporate a false positive reduction percentage from the overall equation?
> 
> Interesting development with 98 to 99 percent of NHL players being vaccinated.


I suspect the rate of false positives is a function of a) the desire for a rapid test, rather than a more valid and reliable one, and b) the sheer volume of testing being carried out by the various labs.

As I understood it, the strategy associated with rapid testing was that negative results could be relied on, but positive results would trigger closer examination. Unfortunately, our collective impatience has somehow made the rapid test as the norm, rather than some sort of tentative provisional information.

I guess this is a case of "You get what you wait for".


----------



## mhammer

The announcement will be made later today about approval of one of the vaccines for children 5-11, and municipal health authorities will be gearing up for immunization programs.

Just a reminder to those with children in that age range, who might be skittish about needles. If the child pinches themself reasonably hard on another part of their body - for instance, the soft flesh around the elbow on the arm that isn't being injected - it distracts considerably from whatever discomfort is expected from the needle itself; kind of like a crude form of acupuncture for pain management (and quite possibly part of how acupuncture came to be in the first place). I've seen it work quite well, and self-pinching isn't perceived as painful ,the same way that it's hard to tickle yourself.


----------



## HighNoon

Midnight Rider said:


> There was no mention of any high level Covid infection amongst the 10 players and one coach who tested positive,... but it does appear that the testing was unreliable with some players testing positive, then negative and then positive again. I'm assuming we would have heard if any of the players or coach were hospitalized.
> 
> Wonder how many false positive tests have occurred within this country and worldwide that have been included in the total number of active cases column since testing began,... or do they incorporate a false positive reduction percentage from the overall equation?
> 
> Interesting development with 98 to 99 percent of NHL players being vaccinated.


This relates directly to the PCR test and the CT level performed. Based on what primers they are using, anything over 25 will give you a high rate of false positives, and as such should be ruled out as a prime diagnostic tool. And yet that is exactly what's been used to drive policy decisions. Think case mania....


----------



## HighNoon

mhammer said:


> The announcement will be made later today about approval of one of the vaccines for children 5-11, and municipal health authorities will be gearing up for immunization programs.
> 
> Just a reminder to those with children in that age range, who might be skittish about needles. If the child pinches themself reasonably hard on another part of their body - for instance, the soft flesh around the elbow on the arm that isn't being injected - it distracts considerably from whatever discomfort is expected from the needle itself; kind of like a crude form of acupuncture for pain management (and quite possibly part of how acupuncture came to be in the first place). I've seen it work quite well, and self-pinching isn't perceived as painful ,the same way that it's hard to tickle yourself.


These 'vaccines' are not immunizing agents, as evidenced by their performance so far. At best they are one kind of drug therapy in a larger immunotherapy field of available protocols. 

Acupuncture was developed over many years, and used live subjects (usually some sort of prisoner) who were cut, sliced, and diced whilst alive, to find out the different neural pathways and their galvanic response mechanisms. Acupuncture is an amazing medical tool.


----------



## mhammer

HighNoon said:


> These 'vaccines' are not immunizing agents, as evidenced by their performance so far. At best they are one kind of drug therapy in a larger immunotherapy field of available protocols.
> 
> Acupuncture was developed over many years, and used live subjects (usually some sort of prisoner) who were cut, sliced, and diced whilst alive, to find out the different neural pathways and their galvanic response mechanisms. Acupuncture is an amazing medical tool.


What the heck are you smoking? Acupuncture is quite old; several thousand years by some estimates. Its application for purposes other than pain control, such as treatment for various diseases or other problems, is a whole other kettle of fish. But the understanding of how it functions to alter pain perception is now fairly well understood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_control_theory 

Many medical and other treatments we now use find their roots in much earlier crude attempts that people stumbled onto without understanding what they were doing, and occasionally misattributing to mystical factors. Consider vaccines. Until recently, most conventional vaccines used "deactivated" pathogens that could provide a learning opportunity for the immune system without posing a corresponding health challenge that would come from an active pathogen. Earliest vaccines were the use of pus from cows (vaches) infected with cowpox, and applied to humans; the pustules containing deactivated pox pathogens. Okay, find me a child in the world that does NOT eat their boogers. What is a booger? It is dried mucus, whose purpose is to trap and destroy pathogens coming in through the nose. That's primitive immunization. And if it wasn't beneficial, I would imagine that evolution would have made it taste simply awful to humans, the same way that the preponderance of toxic substances taste awful and bitter to us. My suggested strategy for children to block out the very brief pain of a needle being inserted (and I think that most adults would tell you they barely felt anything when they got their flu or Covid shot), is based on how we have learned pain perception works, and indeed how most people will address one source of pain in their body by deliberately stimulating another area.

I'm not going to debate you about vaccines, because clearly you have adopted a contrarian stance opposed to them on principle.


----------



## HighNoon

mhammer said:


> What the heck are you smoking? Acupuncture is quite old; several thousand years by some estimates. Its application for purposes other than pain control, such as treatment for various diseases or other problems, is a whole other kettle of fish. But the understanding of how it functions to alter pain perception is now fairly well understood. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gate_control_theory
> 
> Many medical and other treatments we now use find their roots in much earlier crude attempts that people stumbled onto without understanding what they were doing, and occasionally misattributing to mystical factors. Consider vaccines. Until recently, most conventional vaccines used "deactivated" pathogens that could provide a learning opportunity for the immune system without posing a corresponding health challenge that would come from an active pathogen. Earliest vaccines were the use of pus from cows (vaches) infected with cowpox, and applied to humans; the pustules containing deactivated pox pathogens. Okay, find me a child in the world that does NOT eat their boogers. What is a booger? It is dried mucus, whose purpose is to trap and destroy pathogens coming in through the nose. That's primitive immunization. And if it wasn't beneficial, I would imagine that evolution would have made it taste simply awful to humans, the same way that the preponderance of toxic substances taste awful and bitter to us. My suggested strategy for children to block out the very brief pain of a needle being inserted (and I think that most adults would tell you they barely felt anything when they got their flu or Covid shot), is based on how we have learned pain perception works, and indeed how most people will address one source of pain in their body by deliberately stimulating another area.
> 
> I'm not going to debate you about vaccines, because clearly you have adopted a contrarian stance opposed to them on principle.


I posit that giving children these 'vaccines' is a form of child abuse.

On a basic epidemiological basis, children, because of their 0.00 whatever chance of mortality from covid, should not be given a still experimental drug (moving the dates forward from the original clinical studies guideline notwithstanding). They should be allowed to lead the way in natural herd immunity, because we will not get to herd immunity with these leaky (actually very leaky) vaccines.

The only principle here are facts. The immune response to the mRNA vaccines is not to the whole virion, and as such any changes (e.g. the delta variant) are bypassing the acquired response, causing infection and therefore increasing transmissibility (not a good thing for herd immunity). To get the body to accept the injection, there are signals that turn off a TLR responder that signals T cel immunity, and as such, opens one up for sleeping viruses that co-inhabit the body peacefully, up to this point. A good case to highlight is the rise of shingles cases in vaccine recipients. Also the spike protein has a docking mechanism that connects it to the cel, thus allowing it transfer it's message to the cel. It has been found to now be breaking free, resulting in millions/billions, of them floating freely in the body. The polyethylene glycol has already been shown to accumulate in soft tissue and be reactogenic. This was not intended. 

And the latest study from Sweden has shown the lipid encased spike to be entering the cel.....you know the land where your DNA lives (the nucleus and in the mitochondria) What will be the result of this? No one knows yet, but it should be interesting. Is this where the transhumanism effects begin. News at eleven Bob.

One thing about jabbing the children is certain. They are an excellent entry point for digital ID. 

Mass vaccination in the middle of a pandemic is dumb....it will only drive immune escape and lengthen the duration. We're all going to get it.


----------



## Choo5440

mhammer said:


> I suspect the rate of false positives is a function of a) the desire for a rapid test, rather than a more valid and reliable one, and b) the sheer volume of testing being carried out by the various labs.
> 
> As I understood it, the strategy associated with rapid testing was that negative results could be relied on, but positive results would trigger closer examination. Unfortunately, our collective impatience has somehow made the rapid test as the norm, rather than some sort of tentative provisional information.
> 
> I guess this is a case of "You get what you wait for".


With the rapid tests particularly, the risk is skewed towards false negatives (people who really are positive) vs false positives.
Rapid tests are less sensitive, so are likely to miss positive results.
For both PCR and the rapid antigen testing, a false positive is mostly a result of contaminated samples.

Where the flip-flopping results in PCR testing come from tend to be when a person is at the very beginning/very end of an infection. Viral load is low, and so the physical particles are less likely to be picked up on a single swab.

The other thing that can be seen with a pcr test is sensitivity - based on the how many times the centrifuge has to run to read positive.


----------



## mhammer

HighNoon said:


> I posit that giving children these 'vaccines' is a form of child abuse.
> 
> On a basic epidemiological basis, children, because of their 0.00 whatever chance of mortality from covid, should not be given a still experimental drug (moving the dates forward from the original clinical studies guideline notwithstanding). They should be allowed to lead the way in natural herd immunity, because we will not get to herd immunity with these leaky (actually very leaky) vaccines.
> 
> The only principle here are facts. The immune response to the mRNA vaccines is not to the whole virion, and as such any changes (e.g. the delta variant) are bypassing the acquired response, causing infection and therefore increasing transmissibility (not a good thing for herd immunity). To get the body to accept the injection, there are signals that turn off a TLR responder that signals T cel immunity, and as such, opens one up for sleeping viruses that co-inhabit the body peacefully, up to this point. A good case to highlight is the rise of shingles cases in vaccine recipients. Also the spike protein has a docking mechanism that connects it to the cel, thus allowing it transfer it's message to the cel. It has been found to now be breaking free, resulting in millions/billions, of them floating freely in the body. The polyethylene glycol has already been shown to accumulate in soft tissue and be reactogenic. This was not intended.
> 
> And the latest study from Sweden has shown the lipid encased spike to be entering the cel.....you know the land where your DNA lives (the nucleus and in the mitochondria) What will be the result of this? No one knows yet, but it should be interesting. Is this where the transhumanism effects begin. News at eleven Bob.
> 
> One thing about jabbing the children is certain. They are an excellent entry point for digital ID.
> 
> Mass vaccination in the middle of a pandemic is dumb....it will only drive immune escape and lengthen the duration. We're all going to get it.


I'll ask the same two question I ask everyone else:

1) Do you want this pandemic to go away?

2) If so, what steps could be taken to expedite that?

Your stance seems to be that everything authorities are pursuing, so as to make this pandemic go away, and restore economic vitality to the whole of the nation, is wrong. Okay, have any better ideas?


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## JBFairthorne

I think I’ve seen this show before.


----------



## mhammer

So have I, and the reruns don't hold up as well as Seinfeld or Brooklyn Nine-NIne, or even M.A.S.H..


----------



## GuitarT

I spent a week of my vacation this past summer in some conversation with a cottage neighbour who happens to be an epidemiologist. He's working on a research team with fellow epidemiologists as well as vaccinologists studying the effects and effectiveness of the various Covid vaccines. While he tried to keep things in layman's terms in the end I asked him if he would get his kids vaccinated once it becomes available to them (2 of his 3 are under 12). His response, "They'll be the first in line". Either he's a serious sociopath who feels compelled to donate his kids to scientific research or he's a well informed parent who see's this as a means to an end. I get that his team's 20,000+ hours of peer reviewed research may not hold up to my 10 1/2 hours of Google searches over the last year and a half but it has to be worth something. (Sarcasm intended).


----------



## allthumbs56

GuitarT said:


> I spent a week of my vacation this past summer in some conversation with a cottage neighbour who happens to be an epidemiologist. He's working on a research team with fellow epidemiologists as well as vaccinologists study the effects and effectiveness of the various Covid vaccines. While he tried to keep things in layman's terms in the end I asked him if he would get his kids vaccinated once it becomes available to them (2 of his 3 are under 12). His response, "They'll be the first in line". Either he's a serious sociopath who feels compelled to donate his kids to scientific research or he's a well informed parent who see's this as a means to an end. I get that his 20,000+ hours of peer reviewed research may not hold up to my 10 1/2 hours of Google searches over the last year and a half but it has to be worth something. (Sarcasm intended).


Nonsense. My postal worker sister-in-law in South Carolina spent countless hours Googling stuff whilst on the toilet. She knows the real truth. 

Oh, and they never landed on the moon and the earth is flat and Elvis is still alive but Paul is dead ..................


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## 2manyGuitars

Yeahhh...
That’s all I needed to see


----------



## mhammer

GuitarT said:


> I spent a week of my vacation this past summer in some conversation with a cottage neighbour who happens to be an epidemiologist. He's working on a research team with fellow epidemiologists as well as vaccinologists studying the effects and effectiveness of the various Covid vaccines. While he tried to keep things in layman's terms in the end I asked him if he would get his kids vaccinated once it becomes available to them (2 of his 3 are under 12). His response, "They'll be the first in line". Either he's a serious sociopath who feels compelled to donate his kids to scientific research or he's a well informed parent who see's this as a means to an end. I get that his team's 20,000+ hours of peer reviewed research may not hold up to my 10 1/2 hours of Google searches over the last year and a half but it has to be worth something. (Sarcasm intended).


There are things we know are true, and pure logic allows us to propose them. And there are things we think are _probably_ the case, but we are obliged to withhold any inferences until empirical evidence clearly indicates that we were correct OR wrong OR that it's a little more complicated than initially assumed. It probably _was_ the case all along that the Pfizer-Biontech vaccine was fine for kids. But because they were not included (and are RARELY included) in initial safety/efficacy testing (same way very old people weren't, either), no one had any sense of what appropriate dosage was, or whether it had the same degree of efficacy AND safety as in younger and older adults. In other words, the data to compel what the initial hunch was, and how it would be implemented in practice, simply wasn't there. But now we have it, and have rigorously evaluated it.

As for why Health Canada took a bit longer, that's because regulatory bodies DO not and SHOULD not simply nod and mutter "What they said". The evaluation certainly takes into account the_ basis_ that other regulatory bodies evaluated something as safe or unsafe or conditionally safe. But each regulatory body approaches evaluation as if they are the first and only ones to do so - i.e., independently - and work with the data/evidence they are provided. As my wife noted to me, "If we agree with another regulatory body, we have to explain and defend on what basis we do so, and if we disagree, we also have to defend why."

There certainly are things about juvenile immune systems that will be different than mature and elderly ones, so it was sensible to wait until the data came in. A big tip of the hat to those parents who volunteered their kids on behalf of all the other kids and their parents. I heard on CBC this morning that the minimum interval between 1st and 2nd doses for the 5-11 group can actually be longer than was the case for adults. Apparently, after 8 weeks, vaccinated kids are still showing a very good antibody count; better than many adults did. Keep in mind the _minimum_ needed interval is distinct from the _optimum_ interval. We purposely waited about 12 weeks between 1st and 2nd dose, based on reports of maximum efficacy. I don't know anything about peak efficacy of 2nd dose for kids; only that going back for a 2nd hit, 8 or fewer weeks doesn't add anything.


----------



## mhammer

Choo5440 said:


> With the rapid tests particularly, the risk is skewed towards false negatives (people who really are positive) vs false positives.
> Rapid tests are less sensitive, so are likely to miss positive results.


An acknowledged flaw. That said, if a rapid test does come up positive, in spite of the greater likelihood of false negatives, that's reason to look a little closer and use a stronger test.

When I used to work in employment testing, the rationale was that one uses machine-scorable short tests for "volume-management" purposes, to shrink a big pile down to a small one, and _then_ you direct the top quintile or whatever to sensitive tests that are more costly and labour-intensive to score.

Of course, if a quick machine-scorable test designates me as "not good enough" when I actually am (i.e., false negative), I can always apply for a different job, and my performance does not impact on others. False negatives with a communicable and deadly disease is a whole other matter. We need to acknowledge that this risk of false negatives from imperfect rapid testing did not "have to" exist. It exists because of demand from people, from businesses, and from governments.


----------



## HighNoon

mhammer said:


> I'll ask the same two question I ask everyone else:
> 
> 1) Do you want this pandemic to go away?
> 
> 2) If so, what steps could be taken to expedite that?
> 
> Your stance seems to be that everything authorities are pursuing, so as to make this pandemic go away, and restore economic vitality to the whole of the nation, is wrong. Okay, have any better ideas?


1). No I want it to stay because it's so much fun. 
2). Early treatment as used successfully by the FLCCC, and other medical bodies around the world. Treat it as a medical imperative and stop politicizing it. Obesity is the main co factor in extended sickness....lose weight and get in shape. Preventive measures....from early on I read autopsy reports that pointed out low levels of Vitamin D in a large percentage of those deceased....get your Vitamin D levels up, an important co-factor in respiratory health. And there's a long list of prophylactic supplements that will increase one's immune system. Simple .....and cheap.

Stop all the fines and punitive punishments. And stop firing people because they don't want to get the jab, especially those who already had Covid. Those who worked through it on the medical front line, went from heroes to zeroes....and most of them had it....absolutely insulting and disgusting behavior.

Open up the lines of communication and stop censoring something/someone just because it doesn't fit your agenda. When you see leading epidemiologists, virologists and other medical experts from around the world being excluded/censored, you know something is very rotten indeed.

Economic vitality in Canada. Get back to work....people need a pay check to give their lives meaning....stop killing small businesses (although the damage is already done)....open up the energy sectors so we can keep fuel and heating prices down, so the regular family doesn't drown in debt. 

It's endemic....we're all going to get it. Live with it.


----------



## HighNoon

2manyGuitars said:


> Yeahhh...
> That’s all I needed to see
> 
> View attachment 388498
> 
> 
> View attachment 388499


Don't look up....look down.....over here....the 4th Industrial Revolution is here. Enjoy the benefits.

Diminishing the footfall of traditional brick and mortar businesses and institutions through social distancing and lockdowns in order to change the muscle memory of consumption habits and consolidate the gains of online business giants 

Assigning citizens virtual perimeters in real-time (geofencing) inside future smart cities based on biometric data and algorithmic predictions, where GPS coordinates linked to nano-robotic biosensors can track compliance with wearable technologies to alert authorities if non-compliant citizens stray beyond ‘safe areas’ 

Encouraging the framing of urban planning ordinances and statutes so that cities are controlled by cloud-based applications and embedded sensor networks which can predict the behaviour of entire populations, through scanning copious volumes of data for behavioural patterns and real-time tracking of citizens 

Socially engineering the public by convincing them that suffering and deprivation through draconian lockdowns and social distancing is for their own betterment, thus cementing acceptance of a new protocol which can be activated in response to any sensationalized public health threat-real or perceived-which will pave the path for future ‘climate lockdowns’ under the pretext of ‘saving the planet’ 

Amplifying the lingering threat of deadly variants to justify unfettered access to our bodies through intrusive pharmaceutical interventions, such as wirelessly networked medication consisting of wearable, implantable and ingestible technologies in “smart” environments, eventually integrating humans into the Internet of Bodies in a biosecurity surveillance state 

Encouraging nations to enlist in the UN’s E-Government Development Index (EGDI) through the rollout of digital IDs, which will not only enable citizens to access public e-services but more importantly determine their value as human capital by global financiers

Promoting biometric passports (Digital IDs) to manufacture consent for a social credit system-akin to the Chinese technocratic model-which will presage a new era of thought control, by managing, monitoring, punitively profiling and predicting the trustworthiness of citizens through an overarching system of punishments and rewards in a future which will resemble a behaviourist panopticon

Remember, you are considered a bio hazard that needs to be reprogrammed.


----------



## Wardo

HighNoon said:


> ... Remember, you are considered a bio hazard that needs to be reprogrammed.


Should be an easy sell in canada; same deal as last time just no cattle cars this time.


----------



## HighNoon

Wardo said:


> Should be an easy sell in canada; same deal as last time just no cattle cars this time.


I love my country, but in general, we have become weak and complacent. And very compliant. If we allow fear and hysteria to be weaponized against us, it will simply fog our perception of events and break our grasp on reality, as evidenced by this mass hysteria to a really bad flu.


----------



## laristotle

HighNoon said:


> Don't look up....look down.....over here....the 4th Industrial Revolution is here. Enjoy the benefits.


----------



## JBFairthorne

mhammer said:


> So have I, and the reruns don't hold up as well as Seinfeld or Brooklyn Nine-NIne, or even M.A.S.H..


Funny you should say that. I’m currently watching Seinfeld episodes on Netflix with my 13/14 year old boys (their first time) and it really holds up. It still makes me laugh. Festivus for the rest of us. And now for the airing of grievances…


----------



## mhammer

You're WEAK! I mean, not that there's anything _wrong_ with that.

13/14 year-old boys? So I gather you're going out to buy another 4l of milk between Seinfeld episodes? When our youngest finally left home, the joke was that we changed from checking to see if there was enough milk to make it through until morning, to checking to see if the milk was past the expiry date. You'll see in due time.


----------



## JBFairthorne

Yeah, generally 4L of milk a day when they visit. I’m sure they tone it back a notch because I bitch about it. I’ve always kind of maintained a family rule though that….if the kids asked if they could have some milk or fresh fruit the answer is always yes.


----------



## Midnight Rider

HighNoon said:


> This relates directly to the PCR test and the CT level performed. Based on what primers they are using, anything over 25 will give you a high rate of false positives, and as such should be ruled out as a prime diagnostic tool. And yet that is exactly what's been used to drive policy decisions. Think case mania....


So ,according to the following statement as entered on the Public Health Ontario website the 38 Cycle Threshold value which is used to determine a positive test result during the polymerase chain reaction testing is 13 cycles above what they should be using?

It is also mentioned within this article that each PCR brand has a different CT cut off point. I would have thought it be best to choose the most accurate test brand for all testing to help standardize testing across the country to ensure the best possible testing control,... but I realize we are talking about government function here. It was also interesting to read that CT test values can change as a result of increased transportation times, sample storage conditions, and sample collection method.

*How do you know when a COVID-19 test is positive?*
"PCR tests tell you if the virus is detected (positive) or not (negative). Each PCR test has cutoff points (the number of cycles it runs), which tells the machine to stop running the test. It is important to note that different brands who make the PCR tests may have different cutoff values based on how sensitive the test is and how the test is designed. Additionally, laboratories across the province involved in COVID-19 testing use different testing kits.

At PHO, we have developed a PCR test in our lab, with positive and negative cutoff points. The cutoff point for a positive result for PHO’s developed lab test is 38 cycles. This means that if the virus is found at or before 38 cycles are completed, then the test is considered positive. The cutoff point for a negative result is 40 cycles. If the virus is detected between 38 and 40 cycles, we call this an indeterminate or inconclusive result. All inconclusive results are considered probable (likely) cases for public health reporting. " 

Link to Public Health Ontario article: https://www.publichealthontario.ca/...ined-covid19-pcr-testing-and-cycle-thresholds


----------



## Midnight Rider

laristotle said:


> View attachment 388572













Perhaps we should give this fine upstanding citizen a handful of the world reins as well.


----------



## HighNoon

Midnight Rider said:


> So ,according to the following statement as entered on the Public Health Ontario website the 38 Cycle Threshold value which is used to determine a positive test result during the polymerase chain reaction testing is 13 cycles above what they should be using?
> 
> It is also mentioned within this article that each PCR brand has a different CT cut off point. I would have thought it be best to choose the most accurate test brand for all testing to help standardize testing across the country to ensure the best possible testing control,... but I realize we are talking about government function here. It was also interesting to read that CT test values can change as a result of increased transportation times, sample storage conditions, and sample collection method.
> 
> *How do you know when a COVID-19 test is positive?*
> "PCR tests tell you if the virus is detected (positive) or not (negative). Each PCR test has cutoff points (the number of cycles it runs), which tells the machine to stop running the test. It is important to note that different brands who make the PCR tests may have different cutoff values based on how sensitive the test is and how the test is designed. Additionally, laboratories across the province involved in COVID-19 testing use different testing kits.
> 
> At PHO, we have developed a PCR test in our lab, with positive and negative cutoff points. The cutoff point for a positive result for PHO’s developed lab test is 38 cycles. This means that if the virus is found at or before 38 cycles are completed, then the test is considered positive. The cutoff point for a negative result is 40 cycles. If the virus is detected between 38 and 40 cycles, we call this an indeterminate or inconclusive result. All inconclusive results are considered probable (likely) cases for public health reporting. "
> 
> Link to Public Health Ontario article: https://www.publichealthontario.ca/...ined-covid19-pcr-testing-and-cycle-thresholds


In this French study by Didier Raoult, testing above a CT of 35, no samples remained infectious in a cell culture.








Correlation Between 3790 Quantitative Polymerase Chain Reaction–Positives Samples and Positive Cell Cultures, Including 1941 Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 Isolates


TO THE EDITOR—The outbreak of the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic due to severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) was declared




academic.oup.com





I guess they like looking at genetic fragments in Ontario (and most other provinces in Canada).

From the article (in France) it appears they've settled on a CT of 25 as their cut off point....the drop off to 30 (in keeping samples alive in a cell culture) is appox. 50%. Quite dramatic. That being said, where you are at a point in time, as far as viral load can change...so somewhere between 25 and 30 could still be noteworthy. And given other symptoms even above 30, depending where they are on the disease cycle could be of interest. However, I think for a case to be called a case, should still be someone who presents to a medical professional with symptoms, and then receives treatment accordingly.

Earlier this year the CDC dropped their CT cut off to 28.

Sidebar....Dylan Larkin, the Red Wings hockey player, was pulled off the ice in Dallas on Tuesday night, in between the 2nd and 3rd period. Positive Covid test....he tested negative the next day, and played last night in Vegas. In Dallas they blamed an 'old' machine as the culprit. Fun times.


----------



## colchar

JBFairthorne said:


> Funny you should say that. I’m currently watching Seinfeld episodes on Netflix with my 13/14 year old boys (their first time) and it really holds up. It still makes me laugh. Festivus for the rest of us. And now for the airing of grievances…


Oh fuck I hated that show. Absolutely hated it.


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> I'll ask the same two question I ask everyone else:
> 
> 1) Do you want this pandemic to go away?
> 
> 2) If so, what steps could be taken to expedite that?
> 
> Your stance seems to be that everything authorities are pursuing, so as to make this pandemic go away, and restore economic vitality to the whole of the nation, is wrong. Okay, have any better ideas?



Apparently it is all fake so nothing needs to be done.


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> Apparently it is all fake so nothing needs to be done.


Ah. Okay. Thanks for clearing that up. I stand corrected. 😉


----------



## 2manyGuitars

colchar said:


> Apparently it is all fake so nothing needs to be done.


My favourite is when the people claiming it’s a “super deadly virus created by the Illuminati in a secret lab” are also the same ones refusing the vaccine because “its no worse than a bad cold”.


----------



## laristotle

Just wait until you have an urge to buy a copy (or another one) of 'Catcher in the Rye'.
The conspiracies may make sense then.


----------



## colchar

laristotle said:


> Just wait until you have an urge to buy a copy (or another one) of 'Catcher in the Rye'.
> The conspiracies may make sense then.



I've never actually read that.


----------



## colchar

2manyGuitars said:


> My favourite is when the people claiming it’s a “super deadly virus created by the Illuminati in a secret lab” are also the same ones refusing the vaccine because “its no worse than a bad cold”.



I saw one yesterday claiming that "the experts say that all the vaccinated will start dropping dead in 2025, but I think it will happen earlier and will start in 2022". I wonder what the dumb cunt will say when none of that actually happens?


----------



## Wardo

colchar said:


> Oh fuck I hated that show. Absolutely hated it.


I’ve never seen it.


----------



## colchar

Wardo said:


> I’ve never seen it.



Count yourself lucky.


----------



## laristotle

colchar said:


> Oh fuck I hated that show. Absolutely hated it.





Wardo said:


> I’ve never seen it.


I wasn't a fan either.


----------



## Guitar101

Wardo said:


> I’ve never seen it.


Then you don't know what you're missing. It's on Netflix right now if you want to have a look.

Jerry: I'm here for my rental car.
_Attendant: Sorry sir but we don't have any cars._
Jerry: But I have a reservation. Do you know what a reservation is?
_Attendant: I know what a reservation is Sir_
Jerry: I don't think you do. If you did, you'd have a car.

What was this thread about again? Oh ya, Covid19. . . . On with the copy/pasting


----------



## Wardo

Guitar101 said:


> It's on Netflix right now if you want to have a look.


I don't have netlix and never watched television much before that.

I live on the side of a hill inside my mind and every car or truck that I ever owned is rusting out back .lol


----------



## colchar

Guitar101 said:


> Jerry: I'm here for my rental car.
> _Attendant: Sorry sir but we don't have any cars._
> Jerry: But I have a reservation. Do you know what a reservation is?
> _Attendant: I know what a reservation is Sir_
> Jerry: I don't think you do. If you did, you'd have a car.



Wow, that was hysterical....................................


----------



## Jim DaddyO

4th day straight of 700+ cases in Ontario. 3 deaths in the last day. 7 day rolling average is now up to 645/day.

On a brighter note, ICU patients have remained relatively unchanged at 135.

Something must have happened to make the cases less severe...I wonder what that could be? (Rhetorical sarcasm)


----------



## laristotle




----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> 4th day straight of 700+ cases in Ontario. 3 deaths in the last day. 7 day rolling average is now up to 645/day.
> 
> On a brighter note, ICU patients have remained relatively unchanged at 135.
> 
> Something must have happened to make the cases less severe...I wonder what that could be? (Rhetorical sarcasm)


Due to current worldwide shortages they ran out of the chips they'd been including in the 'vaccines'?


----------



## colchar

laristotle said:


> View attachment 388905



I've always liked Neil Oliver, who grew up in my mother's hometown in Scotland, but he has gone a bit off the deep end lately.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

colchar said:


> Due to current worldwide shortages they ran out of the chips they'd been including in the 'vaccines'?


And that reminds me of the other conspiracy theory I love...

They’re using the vaccine to exercise some sort of mind control over the world’s population. But all of us taking it are “mindless sheep that let the government control us”.

Sounds like they’re wasting a lot of time, effort, and money on people that already “blindly follow orders”.


----------



## laristotle

colchar said:


> I've always liked Neil Oliver, who grew up in my mother's hometown in Scotland, but he has gone a bit off the deep end lately.


Watching this, his comments don't seem far fetched to me.


----------



## Guitar101

colchar said:


> Due to current worldwide shortages they ran out of the chips they'd been including in the 'vaccines'?


Their not chips. Their Nanobots.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Paul Running




----------



## Sneaky

Bill Burr on anti vacation conspiracies.

Edit: freakin auto correct strikes again. I’m not fixing it.


----------



## allthumbs56

Not pulling any punches in Germany today ......

_"Probably by the end of this winter, as is sometimes cynically said, pretty much everyone in Germany will be vaccinated, cured or dead," German Health Minister Jens Spahn said._​​I have posted my own calculations in this regard for Canada and the US before. I just did them again as of November 22nd. and got 98 days for the US and 168 for Canada.


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## zztomato

In the news today; COVID19 can cause erectile dysfunction. That should give the hesitant a reason to get off the fence.


----------



## mhammer

I would imagine for some people it will simply give them one more reason to be suspicious of Pfizer, who not only produce one of the vaccines, but also make those little blue pills, the idea being that it's all a conspiracy to make profits for Pfizer - either buy our vaccine *or* buy our boner pills.

My guess is that being on a ventilator in an ICU also interferes with one's sexual performance.


----------



## Choo5440

I'm not sure whether it's irony, karma, or both

Anti Vax docs contract Covid after anti vax summit


----------



## allthumbs56

Choo5440 said:


> I'm not sure whether it's irony, karma, or both
> 
> Anti Vax docs contract Covid after anti vax summit


Definitely ironic that the conference, where talk of Ivermectin featured prominently, was held at the World *Equestrian* Center.


----------



## laristotle

Choo5440 said:


> I'm not sure whether it's irony, karma, or both
> 
> Anti Vax docs contract Covid after anti vax summit


_At the summit in Ocala, Boros criticized his 97-year-old father for getting a Covid 
vaccine, saying: “He had been brainwashed … He got it. He didn’t tell me. 
I was very upset. I wanted to give him a spanking. He got both jabs.” _


----------



## Choo5440

__





Loading…






www.cbc.ca





New variant coming out of South Africa. Already found in Hong Kong.
🤦🏻‍♂️


----------



## Fred Gifford

Choo5440 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Loading…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cbc.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> New variant coming out of South Africa. Already found in Hong Kong.
> 🤦🏻‍♂️


ah, our lovely Media spreading joy as per usual ... Rule.#1 Keep the population in a heightened State of Panic .. enjoy Christmas this year ?? hail no !! we've got much more pressing needs to worry about !!! a new strain !! ..gott'a love that Media Machine $$$$$$$$ ca-ching


----------



## zztomato

Fred Gifford said:


> ah, our lovely Media spreading joy as per usual ... Rule.#1 Keep the population in a heightened State of Panic .. enjoy Christmas this year ?? hail no !! we've got much more pressing needs to worry about !!! a new strain !! ..gott'a love that Media Machine $$$$$$$$ ca-ching


Would you rather not know?


----------



## mhammer

zztomato said:


> Would you rather not know?


True, but there are ways to present it that are engineered to elicit prudence, instead of panic.
Of course, you'll be familiar with the maxim of newsmedia: If it bleeds, it leads.

In fairness, few news organizations would see themselves as obliged to have and present a broad structured approach to pandemic-related information. That is, of course, the responsibility of those who ARE tasked with public policy, and especially public health policy. But at the same time, the independence of the press from government means a) government has no bloody business planning out how newsmedia present information, and b) newsmedia have to be as interested in the public good as they are in basic readership. That includes devising headlines that are informative, even if longer, rather than catchy phrases that allow for brevity and a much larger font.

But...on the topic. We have been warned by epidemiologists and virologists, for a while, that failure to vaccinate those nations where vaccine has not gone yet with any great volume, would lead to new mutations and variants. So this is not unexpected. I'll wait on my 3rd poke until 1st pokes start showing up in those countries.


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## allthumbs56

Not looking good:

Hong Kong confirms two cases of new COVID-19 variant, one of which travelled from Canada | National Post 

Dagnabit!


----------



## zztomato

mhammer said:


> Of course, you'll be familiar with the maxim of newsmedia: If it bleeds, it leads.


It seems many people have forgotten this basic media business fact. People rant and rage at the "mainstream media", call them biased, sensationalist, driven by political agendas and greed. All of that is as old as print itself. Mainstream media can't hold a candle to the bottomless pit of bias that exists in alternate media sources. Just pick a conspiracy and you will find endless "facts" to support it. 
I'm ok with the mainstream media. Consume with a good helping of skepticism- as with anything people are selling.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

allthumbs56 said:


> Not looking good:
> 
> Hong Kong confirms two cases of new COVID-19 variant, one of which travelled from Canada | National Post
> 
> Dagnabit!



_Hours after Britain banned flights from South Africa and neighbouring countries and asked travellers returning from there to quarantine, the World Health Organization (WHO) cautioned against hasty travel bans._

Haven't we heard this story before from the WHO?


----------



## mhammer

zztomato said:


> It seems many people have forgotten this basic media business fact. People rant and rage at the "mainstream media", call them biased, sensationalist, driven by political agendas and greed. All of that is as old as print itself. Mainstream media can't hold a candle to the bottomless pit of bias that exists in alternate media sources. Just pick a conspiracy and you will find endless "facts" to support it.
> I'm ok with the mainstream media. Consume with a good helping of skepticism- as with anything people are selling.


The rule of thumb I generally apply is that if a source has a reputation to uphold for the long-term, I trust them more. If the source can simply pack up and vanish, then they are as free to be sloppy as they wish. Of course, it is difficult for anybody to be Walter Cronkite or Edward R.Murrow, or even Earl Cameron, anymore.


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> _Hours after Britain banned flights from South Africa and neighbouring countries and asked travellers returning from there to quarantine, the World Health Organization (WHO) cautioned against hasty travel bans._
> 
> Haven't we heard this story before from the WHO?


Yes, but the difficulty with poorly-planned/drafted travel bans is that one impedes citizens from returning home. That can include not only those who were vacationing, studying abroad, doing business, or caring for relatives, but it also impedes citizens who choose to provide medical services abroad to locales that desperately need them. "Here's your reward for helping others....DON'T COME HOME".

So it's not that all doors should be kept open all the time. Rather, *hasty* travel bans can penalize those who don't deserve it, while not affecting what you wish to minimize. Act promptly, for sure, but think through the details.


----------



## laristotle

Jim DaddyO said:


> Haven't we heard this story before from the WHO?


Back then, proponents for closing borders were labelled as racist.
The term now is vaccine apartheid.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> Yes, but the difficulty with poorly-planned/drafted travel bans is that one impedes citizens from returning home


Well, it's been 20 months or so since the outbreak of Covid. Plenty of time to come up with a plan. I am unsure about having a ban, all I know is that following the same path we did the first time will end up having the same results, 5.2 million deaths so far world wide. We need a new approach to get a different result.


----------



## HighNoon

mhammer said:


> True, but there are ways to present it that are engineered to elicit prudence, instead of panic.
> Of course, you'll be familiar with the maxim of newsmedia: If it bleeds, it leads.
> 
> In fairness, few news organizations would see themselves as obliged to have and present a broad structured approach to pandemic-related information. That is, of course, the responsibility of those who ARE tasked with public policy, and especially public health policy. But at the same time, the independence of the press from government means a) government has no bloody business planning out how newsmedia present information, and b) newsmedia have to be as interested in the public good as they are in basic readership. That includes devising headlines that are informative, even if longer, rather than catchy phrases that allow for brevity and a much larger font.
> 
> But...on the topic. We have been warned by epidemiologists and virologists, for a while, that failure to vaccinate those nations where vaccine has not gone yet with any great volume, would lead to new mutations and variants. So this is not unexpected. I'll wait on my 3rd poke until 1st pokes start showing up in those countries.


Your faith in 'the authorities' to respond in a measured and intelligent way is admirable, but not borne out by actual events. Taiwan was the first to send a delegation to Wuhan to investigate and though not welcomed at all by the local gov't, found out what they needed to know from medical staff at the local hospitals. In fact they warned the WHO with their findings. Did the WHO go to Wuhan. No they did not and only relied on 'official' Chinese gov't sources, who downplayed what was going on. In fact when presented with the fact, finally, the world was facing a pandemic the WHO's first official meeting, was not the immediate pandemic response, but to get together and decide on what they were going to call it (remember German Measles, Hong Kong Flu, Spanish Flu etc), so as not to insult the Chinese gov't or it's people by saying the Wuhan Flu (which is what the Chinese papers were calling it).

And Canada's first response; a meeting to figure out the dollar figure to fund efforts against racism towards Chinese or Asian people because of the origin of the pandemic. Noble, yet hardly practical. Then of course there were the cargo planes full of PPE sent to China to help them....once again, noble, but maybe we should be keeping a little for ourselves to protect our front line workers (you know, the ones who are now vilified for refusing the jab). Then there was the investment in vaccine development with CanSinoBIO....multiple millions of dollars and more importantly time spent to fund future trial studies in Canada with the CCP, the people who brought you the pathogen. Not noble at all, and really dumb, considering they pulled out after taking the money and developing their own vaccine, leaving Canada behind the 8 ball.

Has Canada followed it's own pandemic response playbook. Have a look at it. Short answer, no we have not. From the Minister of Health calling the prophylactic efficacy of Vitamin D 'fake news', to our citizens being fined for walking in a park or taking their kids to the playground, our authorities have taken the authoritarian route to ruining small businesses and the mental health of untold number of Canadians through their restrictions and lockdowns. Not working....doesn't matter, we're going to double and triple down.

As to epidemiological warnings about the virus, they are we can't vaccinate our way out of a pandemic, especially with this 'leaky' vaccine. And if any data/findings from around the world (Vermont, Bremen, Singapore, Israel, Gibraltar etc.) are an indicator of the efficacy of these drug injections, you better have a plan B. Do the Canadian authorities have a Plan B. I haven't heard of one, just more of Plan A, which if you might have noticed, is working only to polarize elements in society and ruin our economy.

Sweden, Norway and Denmark have declared the pandemic over. For them the pathogen is now endemic and something that must be dealt with/lived with. Kids are back in school, no lockdowns, no mask or vaccine mandate. Sensible advice we should be taking a hard look at.


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> Well, it's been 20 months or so since the outbreak of Covid. Plenty of time to come up with a plan. I am unsure about having a ban, all I know is that following the same path we did the first time will end up having the same results, 5.2 million deaths so far world wide. We need a new approach to get a different result.


The objective is to keep the virus out, not people. But priority is given to those with a right to be in Canada (though no right to import viruses). So, to enter...
1) You gotta be a citizen, either from here or a country with a rate of vaccination above some minimum.
2) You gotta be fully vaccinated and have proof.
3) You gotta have a reliable negative test.

One of the difficulties with the last travel ban (which was an *entry* ban not a ban on going elsewhere) was the length and cost of the required quarantine period, that ended up making it only loosely enforced, if that. With improvements in testing, and substantial increases in vaccination rate, restricted movement following entry can be relaxed considerably...assuming one is not coming from an unvaccinated hotspot.


----------



## mhammer

HighNoon said:


> Your faith in 'the authorities' to respond in a measured and intelligent way is admirable, but not borne out by actual events. Taiwan was the first to send a delegation to Wuhan to investigate and though not welcomed at all by the local gov't, found out what they needed to know from medical staff at the local hospitals. In fact they warned the WHO with their findings. Did the WHO go to Wuhan. No they did not and only relied on 'official' Chinese gov't sources, who downplayed what was going on. In fact when presented with the fact, finally, the world was facing a pandemic the WHO's first official meeting, was not the immediate pandemic response, but to get together and decide on what they were going to call it (remember German Measles, Hong Kong Flu, Spanish Flu etc), so as not to insult the Chinese gov't or it's people by saying the Wuhan Flu (which is what the Chinese papers were calling it).
> 
> And Canada's first response; a meeting to figure out the dollar figure to fund efforts against racism towards Chinese or Asian people because of the origin of the pandemic. Noble, yet hardly practical. Then of course there were the cargo planes full of PPE sent to China to help them....once again, noble, but maybe we should be keeping a little for ourselves to protect our front line workers (you know, the ones who are now vilified for refusing the jab). Then there was the investment in vaccine development with CanSinoBIO....multiple millions of dollars and more importantly time spent to fund future trial studies in Canada with the CCP, the people who brought you the pathogen. Not noble at all, and really dumb, considering they pulled out after taking the money and developing their own vaccine, leaving Canada behind the 8 ball.
> 
> Has Canada followed it's own pandemic response playbook. Have a look at it. Short answer, no we have not. From the Minister of Health calling the prophylactic efficacy of Vitamin D 'fake news', to our citizens being fined for walking in a park or taking their kids to the playground, our authorities have taken the authoritarian route to ruining small businesses and the mental health of untold number of Canadians through their restrictions and lockdowns. Not working....doesn't matter, we're going to double and triple down.
> 
> As to epidemiological warnings about the virus, they are we can't vaccinate our way out of a pandemic, especially with this 'leaky' vaccine. And if any data/findings from around the world (Vermont, Bremen, Singapore, Israel, Gibraltar etc.) are an indicator of the efficacy of these drug injections, you better have a plan B. Do the Canadian authorities have a Plan B. I haven't heard of one, just more of Plan A, which if you might have noticed, is working only to polarize elements in society and ruin our economy.
> 
> Sweden, Norway and Denmark have declared the pandemic over. For them the pathogen is now endemic and something that must be dealt with/lived with. Kids are back in school, no lockdowns, no mask or vaccine mandate. Sensible advice we should be taking a hard look at.


Polio is endemic. So is tuberculosis. What Nordic countries have is FAR from that kind of "endemicness". They're not doing all that well. Not the worst,but not that well. They only WISH they had the same number of cases of Covid-19 that they have of other diseases considered to be endemic.


----------



## HighNoon

mhammer said:


> Polio is endemic. So is tuberculosis. What Nordic countries have is FAR from that kind of "endemicness". They're not doing all that well. Not the worst,but not that well. They only WISH they had the same number of cases of Covid-19 that they have of other diseases considered to be endemic.


You're ignoring the fact Canadian authorities have screwed the pooch in our response as I laid out.


----------



## laristotle

Canada puts travel ban on flights from South Africa and neighbouring countries


A new COVID-19 strain, now known as Omicron or B.1.1.529, is raising alarms around the world due to its extremely high level of transmission




nationalpost.com


----------



## Wardo

HighNoon said:


> Your faith in 'the authorities' ...........


Good summary.
I saved a copy in case it gets nuked.


----------



## FatStrat2

Glad there's a travel ban imposed from Africa.

I just ordered a ton of stuff going to my US PO box, they better keep the border open long enough for me to fetch it come the 30th.


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## HighNoon

Paul Running said:


> View attachment 389682


Cute dog....Yours'?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Seems the call for travel restrictions is growing, with logic driving it.






Catch the part where a best case scenario of this new varient, while being more easily spread, would be less intense. One can only hope that this is the case. If a dominant strain came to take over that did nothing more than give you a headache and slight sniffles for a couple of days, the world could live with that easily.


----------



## Wardo

Although I think he said at the end that isn’t likely to happen.


----------



## player99

Omicron is a great name for the virus.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Fun Facts!
om·i·cron
/ˈäməˌkrän,ˈōməˌkrän/
 
_noun_
noun: *omicron*; plural noun: *omicrons*

the fifteenth letter of the Greek alphabet (Ο, ο), transliterated as ‘o.’.
ASTRONOMY
the fifteenth star in a constellation.
noun: *Omicron*
"Omicron Piscium"



Lets be realistic,... it is already here in Canada. This variant had been making its way around the globe well before it had been identified as a new variant,... just as all the previous variants had been.



Consider taking the next three jabs in the opposite arm,... and after that stick out your right or left leg and continue the process in a cyclical rotation. If the situation progresses into an extreme level of variants over the next year or so consider the penis as an alternative injection site,... what could possibly go awry?


----------



## tomee2

Jim DaddyO said:


> Seems the call for travel restrictions is growing, with logic driving it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Catch the part where a best case scenario of this new varient, while being more easily spread, would be less intense. One can only hope that this is the case. If a dominant strain came to take over that did nothing more than give you a headache and slight sniffles for a couple of days, the world could live with that easily.


We can only hope it mutates to be less deadly or make people less ill.
The worse case is it mutates to be more deadly and spread more easily. That's a possibility I don't like, and it's entirely possible.


----------



## JBFairthorne

Most of the time, as these things mutate, they become more transmissible and less deadly. It’s a function of it’s own survival. Highly deadly viruses tend to be more likely to kill the host faster, leaving less lilihood of transmission, and is ultimately self defeating…for the virus itself.


----------



## colchar

They think that this latest mutation came about in an Aids patient who was infected with Covid, hence the mutations. You'd think that the compromised immune system of someone suffering from Aids would make it easier for the virus to infect them, thus meaning that it didn't have to be supercharged to survive. So maybe that means that this is actually a weaker version, despite its various mutations?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> They think that this latest mutation came about in an Aids patient who was infected with Covid, hence the mutations. You'd think that the compromised immune system of someone suffering from Aids would make it easier for the virus to infect them, thus meaning that it didn't have to be supercharged to survive. So maybe that means that this is actually a weaker version, despite its various mutations?


As I understand how he was explaining it, is that an imune compromised HIV patient, who probably was not getting proper medical treatment, got Covid. His immune system likely responded, but with such a weak effort, that the virus was able to basically use his immune response as "training" and adapt to it. There are a whole bunch of differences, he said, between the original virus(s) and this mutated one (32 differences?). 

I think he is reasonable in saying travel restrictions won't stop it, but it very well give some enough time to figure things out better. Sounds like even 1 or 2 months to wrap their heads around this one would be of huge benefit. One thing he has pondered is how many have ended up in hospital with this new one. Certainly no word from the few cases in Europe/Asia whether or not they are. If fewer are getting symptoms bad enough that they require hospitalization, that would be a good sign. One can only hope this is the case, but be prepared that it isn't.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> As I understand how he was explaining it, is that an imune compromised HIV patient, who probably was not getting proper medical treatment, got Covid. His immune system likely responded, but with such a weak effort, that the virus was able to basically use his immune response as "training" and adapt to it.



Yeah that would make sense.


----------



## tomee2

JBFairthorne said:


> Most of the time, as these things mutate, they become more transmissible and less deadly. It’s a function of it’s own survival. Highly deadly viruses tend to be more likely to kill the host faster, leaving less lilihood of transmission, and is ultimately self defeating…for the virus itself.


In the long run yes. But there is nothing preventing it from becoming more deadly and more transmissible due to a random mutation, and in the short term be more deadly to humans. It mutates, and multiplies and spreads. If it spreads before the host dies it doesn't matter how deadly it is. Ebola is an example, but thankfully it doesn't spread through the air.


----------



## colchar

Check out the death rates here:









COVID-19 pandemic - Wikipedia







en.wikipedia.org






Does anyone actually believe the death rate in China? I call bullshit on that.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Hey folks,...time for a good wholesome ol' fashioned intermission,... a favourite comic relief with all Covid threads across the globe.
Enjoy!,... see ya in 3:53.




Ok,... back to our main feature!


----------



## Jim DaddyO

tomee2 said:


> It mutates, and multiplies and spreads. If it spreads before the host dies it doesn't matter how deadly it is.


Seems about 11+ days for incubation period. A lot of spreading can happen in that time. 1 person going through an international airport being contagious and non symptomatic would do it.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

And that’s why I shake my head when I hear the same old “If _you’re_ taking precautions, why should you care if _I’m_ vaccinated or not?”.

With millions of living, breathing petri dishes walking around, it gives this virus billions of opportunities to replicate and if even the tiniest fraction of those mutate, you wind up with stuff like the Delta or Omicron variants.

You can tell yourself whatever makes you feel better about not getting vaccinated, but don’t for a second think that your choices don’t affect others.


----------



## Midnight Rider

2manyGuitars said:


> And that’s why I shake my head when I hear the same old “If _you’re_ taking precautions, why should you care if _I’m_ vaccinated or not?”.
> 
> With millions of living, breathing petri dishes walking around, it gives this virus billions of opportunities to replicate and if even the tiniest fraction of those mutate, you wind up with stuff like the Delta or Omicron variants.
> 
> You can tell yourself whatever makes you feel better about not getting vaccinated, but don’t for a second think that your choices don’t affect others.


Hell yeah!,... time to round em' all up and put them in camps!


----------



## Guitar101

Midnight Rider said:


> Hell yeah!,... time to round em' all up and put them in camps!


That's just crazy . . . . A deserted island would be fine. 😷


----------



## laristotle

Guitar101 said:


> That's just crazy . . . . A deserted island would be fine. 😷


----------



## player99

Snake Plissken


----------



## laristotle

player99 said:


> Snake Plissken


----------



## Paul Running

HighNoon said:


> Cute dog....Yours'?


No, ours is still a pup, a blue...she has a serious look most of the time however, one of these days she'll show her lighter side...she's comical to watch at times.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Midnight Rider said:


> Hell yeah!,... time to round em' all up and put them in camps!


Yeah, that’s not what I said.
You do you. Just don’t try to pretend that actions don’t have consequences.


----------



## 2manyGuitars




----------



## allthumbs56

This says it all for me ..............


----------



## laristotle




----------



## HighNoon

I'm more than a little concerned. It's quite scary because I can't put a finger on where I heard the word omicron before. But I know I've heard it.......whispered......quietly in the big hall.....


----------



## Wardo




----------



## laristotle




----------



## Midnight Rider

2manyGuitars said:


> Yeah, that’s not what I said.


 Just filling in the blanks to what you did say and what it may eventually lead to if the fear factor continues to rise at the pace we have all been witnessing. Some people have a tendency to over react with each new development and lean a little harder on the 'Doom & Gloom' throttle each time which will ultimately create that runaway freight train of irrational thinking and actions,... yeah, we haven't seen any of that happening globally over the last 5 or so years,...🙄 

There has currently been no reports by any health officials stating that this new Omicron variant poses any greater threat than the previous variants. I assume you have been vaccinated and have all the confidence in the world that you will be protected against the new variant,... right?

Just seems like the cartoon you posted is a little premature,... no?

My past case of Covid has resolved,... feeling good and confident going forward,


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Nah, the cartoon was just injecting a little humour (no pun intended).
As far as Omicron, the jury is still out on exactly how contagious it is and how bad the effect is. Some reports are that the symptoms aren’t as bad as the earlier variants but it’ll be awhile before anyone knows more.

And as far as my earlier post, I’ve done what I feel is best for me and that’s all I can do. Others have made their choices, so be it. My point was about people thinking being unvaccinated _only_ affects themselves.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Little to no surprise that this new variant developed in a place where the vaccination rate is low.


----------



## Paul Running

The poor old Greek alphabet is taking a beating from this virus...hopefully they skip π because it never ends.


----------



## Milkman

I'm flying today for the first time since Covid (my last flight was in January of 2020).

I'd advise anyone travelling through the airports these days to leave plenty of extra time in your schedule. Everything takes a little longer.

I also learned only on Saturday that a negative covid test is required to travek to the USA. Fortunatey the rapid antigen test is adequate and I was able to get one of those yesterday.

I'm at the gate. It's kind of surreal being here. Before covid I was in the airports at least once a month.

People seem mostly cooperative (compliant) with covid measures here. Hopefully the whack job anti-maskers choose other flights than mine today.


----------



## Paul Running

Milkman said:


> It's kind of surreal being here.


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> Little to no surprise that this new variant developed in a place where the vaccination rate is low.


Variants develop wherever contagion is high, and contagion is higher wherever prevention is low. The more a virus has the opportunity to replicate, the greater the likelihood that some of those replications will be a little different from the original being replicated.

If people in every nation and part of the world spent their entire life in their village, it wouldn't be much of an issue. I suppose some things can be carried afar by animals, but then how far do most animals travel? When Canada geese become carriers, THEN it would be time to worry.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

2 cases of the new variant in Ottawa already. So, it's here. Detected Nov 24 on a specimen collected on Nov 9. That's 20 days it's been here. Could be a lot of contact in that time. The patient had been to Nigeria.


----------



## allthumbs56

61 out of 600 passengers on two flights from S.A. to Amsterdam. 10% of the passengers - all meeting the existing testing criteria before boarding the plane. Wow.









Dutch find 13 Omicron cases among S.Africa travellers


Dutch health authorities said on Sunday that 13 cases of the new Omicron coronavirus variant have been found in the Netherlands among passengers that were on two flights from South Africa that arrived on Friday.




www.reuters.com





It's obvious the existing policies aren't effective, so what do we do? Close the borders - or let it happen?


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> 61 out of 600 passengers on two flights from S.A. to Amsterdam. 10% of the passengers - all meeting the existing testing criteria before boarding the plane. Wow.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dutch find 13 Omicron cases among S.Africa travellers
> 
> 
> Dutch health authorities said on Sunday that 13 cases of the new Omicron coronavirus variant have been found in the Netherlands among passengers that were on two flights from South Africa that arrived on Friday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's obvious the existing policies aren't effective, so what do we do? Close the borders - or let it happen?


Close the borders. If people are too ignorant to get vaccinated these variants will just keep developing. But hey, it's all about individual rights and freedoms right?


I'm sitting here in Newark with signs and announcements all over the place and right in front of me is a couple who obviously think this means everyone except them.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> 2 cases of the new variant in Ottawa already. So, it's here. Detected Nov 24 on a specimen collected on Nov 9. That's 20 days it's been here. Could be a lot of contact in that time. The patient had been to Nigeria.


Surely if they had tested positive for Covid they would have had to isolate?


----------



## Diablo

colchar said:


> Surely if they had tested positive for Covid they would have had to isolate?


thats the decent and responsible thing to do. But how enforced is that?
early this year, our local news had tons of stories of ppl who were out shopping etc while under quarantine.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Posting just for the punchline...


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> Surely if they had tested positive for Covid they would have had to isolate?


15 days for the test results. Quarantine period is 11(?) days or there abouts for people who have entered the country from hot spots, and that is if they are the kind of people who stick to the recommendations. Even if they did, they were on a plane full of other people and wandered through an international airport upon arrival. Being that this one is even more virulent, it does not make me full of confidence.

Another thing that makes me less confident is that someone thought of a quarantine period that is shorter than the incubation period, or at the very least, shorter than the time to get results from the lab. Where the hell is the logic in that?

My wife read to me that this strain MAY be less deadly though. That is only a suspicion at this point though. Let's hope.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

More dismal news. Ontario is getting awful close to 4 digit infections per day again. 964 on Sunday. 788 so far today. Rolling average nearing 800/day.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> My wife read to me that this strain MAY be less deadly though. That is only a suspicion at this point though. Let's hope.


Three days ago it didn't exist - today it's the world's biggest concern. It'll be two to three weeks before we know much more. I really hope it is less deadly as they say because the old prediction that everyone is gonna catch covid seems more likely every day. 

I wish you all strong immune systems - the vaccine itself may not be enough.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Jim DaddyO said:


> More dismal news. Ontario is getting awful close to 4 digit infections per day again. 964 on Sunday. 788 so far today. Rolling average nearing 800/day.


To be expected during the winter months,... we'll be Ok. We survived last winter and this will be no different.


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Three days ago it didn't exist - today it's the world's biggest concern. It'll be two to three weeks before we know much more. I really hope it is less deadly as they say because the old prediction that everyone is gonna catch covid seems more likely every day.


It's a "concern" largely because it is a functioning mutation/variant, and we don't know a helluva lot about it just yet.



> I wish you all strong immune systems - the vaccine itself may not be enough.


And I wish the same. Vaccines provide a LOT of protection against serious illness, should one become infected, but they are not an invisible shield or brick wall. Or rather, they help one's _immune system _provide protection by being instructed in how to identify the virus and attack it before it replicates too much. So yeah, vaccines sort of give your body the right idea, but it's your body that does the true heavy lifting. The emphasis on getting vaxxed is because your body can't do all the heavy lifting in the absence of what the vaccine teaches it.

But because it IS one's own immune system that does the hard work, and because individual immune capability varies, that's all the more reason to observe public health recommendations and mask up, whether you're double, triple, or even quadruple-vaxxed.

At this point, it's hard to know how much the increase in cases is because it's colder and people are spending more time indoors, without the ventilation that open air provides, and how much the increase is from people thinking "I'm vaxed and most everybody else is, so I don't have to worry and take protective measures anymore". I suspect in due time we will begin to see data emerging from other countries that are as vaxxed as we are here but are now moving into their warmer season with people venturing outdoors more. If slacking off is responsible for increasing cases, then we would expect to see increasing case-counts, in similarly vaxed nations, whether they were headed into winter OR summer. If it was the indoor/outdoor factor, then, controlling for immunization rate, we would expect to see noticeably fewer cases in southern countries, compared to northern ones.

But I don't see it as either/or. I imagine both play a role. It's just a question of how _much_ of a role each plays. It's still early in the game and I expect no one has enough clean data collected to draw any inferences.


----------



## Sneaky

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1465239599857475587


----------



## Sneaky

Duplicate


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> 15 days for the test results.


Since when? I had to get tested weekly to go see my mother while she was hospitalized for six weeks, and I got results within 48hrs.


----------



## Choo5440

colchar said:


> Since when? I had to get tested weekly to go see my mother while she was hospitalized for six weeks, and I got results within 48hrs.


May be referring to the genetic testing. The PCR tests come back quickly for +/-, but the testing for variants can take a lot longer until labs have the tests rolled out


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> Since when? I had to get tested weekly to go see my mother while she was hospitalized for six weeks, and I got results within 48hrs.


Well, that particular test took that long. As reported the sample was gathered on the 9th and detected on the 24th. Sounds like 15 days to me. I don't know what kind of tests there are, but more than one I suppose.

Variant has been found in over 12 countries now.


----------



## Milkman

I had a rapid antigen test (needed to enter the US) on Sunday. This morning I’m having a PCR test down in Nashville in order to ensure a smooth return to Canada.


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> I had a rapid antigen test (needed to enter the US) on Sunday. This morning I’m having a PCR test down in Nashville in order to ensure a smooth return to Canada.


The testing requirement to enter the states must be new - Maggs only needed one to come back into Canada a couple weeks ago.


----------



## tomee2

No wonder there's mass confusion... my ctv news feed. Exactly as it appeared on my phone.


----------



## colchar

Maybe we should all just give in and accept this as our new anthem:







Basically we're all fucked and the only humans who are going to survive will be isolated indigenous groups that have no contact with the outside world, and those weirdos in the Australian outback.


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## colchar

Since it requires a host to survive maybe some of us just need to head out to the wilderness for a while. If we aren't around anyone else we cannot catch it, and once they have all died off the virus will too and we can then rebuild.


----------



## Diablo

tomee2 said:


> No wonder there's mass confusion... my ctv news feed. Exactly as it appeared on my phone.
> 
> View attachment 390281


I notice that the CEO of Moderna loves to throw water on his stock when it runs up fast, for some reason.
Hes done it before. Its a little unusual. Hes the opposite of Elon who pumps and dumps, like many CEO's.
Hard to understand why Bancel does this. I dont think he has enough data to say either way yet.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> The testing requirement to enter the states must be new - Maggs only needed one to come back into Canada a couple weeks ago.


The PCR test to return to Canada is not mandatory (I think) but I got one anyway.
The test to enter the USA is definitely mandatory (or at least it was this week).

I almost qualified for the booster shot before this trip. I will be eligible when I return later this week.


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> Since it requires a host to survive maybe some of us just need to head out to the wilderness for a while. If we aren't around anyone else we cannot catch it, and once they have all died off the virus will too and we can then rebuild.


That was the point of "two weeks to flatten the curve" wasn't it?


----------



## allthumbs56

tomee2 said:


> No wonder there's mass confusion... my ctv news feed. Exactly as it appeared on my phone.
> 
> View attachment 390281


Everybody's got an opinion:

BioNTech CEO: Vaccine likely to protect against severe COVID-19 from Omicron | Toronto Sun 

Give it a couple weeks and we'll see who's right.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

In the process of watching this now.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> In the process of watching this now.



Got a Cole's Notes version? I am sitting in the waiting room at my dealership while they switch me over to winter tires, so I can't watch it right now.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

^^^^ Coles notes version @colchar

3 ways a virus can mutate.
Very unlikely it can do everything well
a - become more deadly
b - become more likely to escape (vaccination)
c - become more transmissable

That seems to be the historical precident of the way viruses act.

Omicron seems most likely to have mutated to become more transmissable in lieu of the other 2 options.


----------



## tomee2

If we're lucky it'll be more transmissible and much less harmful. Fingers crossed...


----------



## Midnight Rider

tomee2 said:


> No wonder there's mass confusion... my ctv news feed. Exactly as it appeared on my phone.
> 
> View attachment 390281


Ching-Ching,... Ching-Ching-Ching,... Ching-Ching!
💴💶💷💵💴💶💷💵💴💶💷💵💴💶💷💵💴


----------



## Midnight Rider

colchar said:


> Since it requires a host to survive maybe some of us just need to head out to the wilderness for a while. If we aren't around anyone else we cannot catch it, and once they have all died off the virus will too and we can then rebuild.


How are your 'Homesteading' skills?



colchar said:


> Maybe we should all just give in and accept this as our new anthem:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Basically we're all fucked and the only humans who are going to survive will be isolated indigenous groups that have no contact with the outside world, and those weirdos in the Australian outback.


There is nowhere to run,... nowhere to hide,...especially for those of living in highly populated areas,(that really goes without having to say). The luckier ones are those living in extremely remote and isolated areas and I highly doubt they want either you, I or anyone else in their neck of the woods fucking things up for them.

What "weirdos" in the Australian outback are you referring to?,... the ones that are self-sustaining in everyday aspect of daily living, have the knowledge of how to utilize their surroundings for their very survival and aren't a blood sucking burden on modern society?

Who's laughing now?


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> ^^^^ Coles notes version @colchar
> 
> 3 ways a virus can mutate.
> Very unlikely it can do everything well
> a - become more deadly
> b - become more likely to escape (vaccination)
> c - become more transmissable


Actually, no. There are many more ways a virus can mutate. It's just that the mutations we tend to hear about are the ones that fit that description. It's a bit like sociopaths. We never hear about the ones that are just pathetic lousy room-mates and spend all day in their room playing_ Call of Duty _and virtually killing as many as they can, or the ones that become manager-from-hell that everyone tries to avoid and quits their job in order to do so. We only hear about the ones who get arrested for murder of some form or serial rape. There are plenty of mutations that render a variant less harmful, or even unable to replicate. Nobody's perfect, and neither are viruses.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> There are many more ways a virus can mutate


errr 3...
main ways?
important ways?
significant ways?
notable ways?
common ways?


lol

anyway, historical precident has these 3 for the list. At least that's what's being reported.


----------



## mhammer

Those 3 because they are the most relevant to us. I just find the emphasis on ONLY those aspects has a way of making people perceive viruses as somehow behaving intentionally. Mutations simply happen. Lots of times the mutation renders the result functionless. And sometimes it gooses the capabilities.


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## allthumbs56

8 months ago Maggs and I booked a trip to Cuba for March 25, 2022 thinking that would give the world plenty of time to sort this out. Not looking so good right now ......................


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Has anyone found out any info on how many who got the omicron variant end up in hospital or ICU? That is a bit of relevant info I am curious about.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

allthumbs56 said:


> 8 months ago Maggs and I booked a trip to Cuba for March 25, 2022 thinking that would give the world plenty of time to sort this out. Not looking so good right now ......................


My sister was just in Cuba. I am not a fan of travel, but she likes it there. Besides not being a fan of travel myself, there has been some very unsettling issues going on that I just could not see myself supporting with my tourist dollars. On a more positive note, many people like Cuba just for the lack of American tourists.


----------



## Sneaky

Jim DaddyO said:


> Has anyone found out any info on how many who got the omicron variant end up in hospital or ICU? That is a bit of relevant info I am curious about.


Probably too early to say. The variant was only discovered last week.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Has anyone found out any info on how many who got the omicron variant end up in hospital or ICU? That is a bit of relevant info I am curious about.


There are only less than ten cases here so we'll have to wait. Cases in Africa aren't going to tell us much because of lack of vaccines, etc.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> My sister was just in Cuba. I am not a fan of travel, but she likes it there. Besides not being a fan of travel myself, there has been some very unsettling issues going on that I just could not see myself supporting with my tourist dollars. *On a more positive note, many people like Cuba just for the lack of American tourists*.


This is true. Unfortunately it's full of Russians who aren't any better.


----------



## mhammer

The thing about variants is that one doesn't really know how to detect them until well _after_ they have emerged. Think about it: how would you know how to test for something you don't even know exists? Obviously if we see cases show up at hospital that are fully vaxed, but still deathly ill, the logical response of the admitting physician is "What in blazes IS this?". and so begins the search for what sort of virus is involved and whether it IS a variant of some kind. Keep in mind that hospital lab techs have an extensive menu of routine tests they use, but the admitting physician has to be able to check a few things on that list and ask them to test for X, Y, and maybe Z. Identifying a new variant involves more than the standard tests for Covid-19, since DNA has to be examined for systematic differences. If there were VERY distinctive and unique symptoms that would be one thing. It would simply require professional judgment and a patient able to describe what's ailing them. But again, one has to be able to positively identify a variant, to be able to say "_These_ symptoms go with _that_ variant". It's tricky.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> The thing about variants is that one doesn't really know how to detect them until well _after_ they have emerged. Think about it: how would you know how to test for something you don't even know exists? Obviously if we see cases show up at hospital that are fully vaxed, but still deathly ill, the logical response of the admitting physician is "What in blazes IS this?". and so begins the search for what sort of virus is involved and whether it IS a variant of some kind. Keep in mind that hospital lab techs have an extensive menu of routine tests they use, but the admitting physician has to be able to check a few things on that list and ask them to test for X, Y, and maybe Z. Identifying a new variant involves more than the standard tests for Covid-19, since DNA has to be examined for systematic differences. If there were VERY distinctive and unique symptoms that would be one thing. It would simply require professional judgment and a patient able to describe what's ailing them. But again, one has to be able to positively identify a variant, to be able to say "_These_ symptoms go with _that_ variant". It's tricky.


What's important isn't how many cases spring specifically from this new variant. What's important is what damage it can do and what we can do to mitigate that. All of our eggs are in the vaccine basket, so question numero uno is about the effectiveness of the various vaccines against the new strain. If they still get results then we'll continue on with the program - if not, then we'll have to revisit lockdowns until an effective vaccine variant is found. We also need to find out if the new treatments from Merk and Pfizer are useful.

We need to look at managing any new symptoms specific to the variant. So far the only new symptom I've heard is that patients are incredibly tired. Treating that symptom seems pretty easy.

If it turns out that Omicron is super-transmissible - but highly survivable then I think we'll all be getting Covid - and getting over it. And moving on.


----------



## Choo5440

mhammer said:


> The thing about variants is that one doesn't really know how to detect them until well _after_ they have emerged. Think about it: how would you know how to test for something you don't even know exists? Obviously if we see cases show up at hospital that are fully vaxed, but still deathly ill, the logical response of the admitting physician is "What in blazes IS this?". and so begins the search for what sort of virus is involved and whether it IS a variant of some kind. Keep in mind that hospital lab techs have an extensive menu of routine tests they use, but the admitting physician has to be able to check a few things on that list and ask them to test for X, Y, and maybe Z. Identifying a new variant involves more than the standard tests for Covid-19, since DNA has to be examined for systematic differences. If there were VERY distinctive and unique symptoms that would be one thing. It would simply require professional judgment and a patient able to describe what's ailing them. But again, one has to be able to positively identify a variant, to be able to say "_These_ symptoms go with _that_ variant". It's tricky.


Public health units (are supposed to) routinely test random samples for potential mutations as a matter of course. I don't know what the number are, but I know TPH has been doing so regularly since the pandemic began. They also keep samples set aside in case anything different comes up in tests.


----------



## laristotle

Dr ANGELIQUE COETZEE, who discovered Omicron says we are over-reacting


Dr ANGELIQUE COETZEE: Nothing has prepared me for the extraordinary global reaction that met my announcement this week about the discovery of the Omicron variant.




www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Fred Gifford

laristotle said:


> Dr ANGELIQUE COETZEE, who discovered Omicron says we are over-reacting
> 
> 
> Dr ANGELIQUE COETZEE: Nothing has prepared me for the extraordinary global reaction that met my announcement this week about the discovery of the Omicron variant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


I'd say the good Dr. hit the nail right on the head .. things had been slow for awhile


----------



## Midnight Rider

Jim DaddyO said:


> Has anyone found out any info on how many who got the omicron variant end up in hospital or ICU? That is a bit of relevant info I am curious about.


I'm going to say zero because if there was just one you could be rest assured some of those main stream media fear mongering news jockeys would have blown it up into another end of the world narrative.

Isn't it interesting how most of the main stream media never seems to put a positive spin on the fact that currently there have been no major reports on a global scale that have confirmed those diagnosed with Omicron being hospitalized, ICU patients or deceased.

We would have heard by now if Omicron was causing more deaths than Delta,... that should tell us most of what we need to know at this juncture. We all have a set of eyes and ears to determine which end is up,... if we choose to utilize that instinct.


----------



## zztomato

Midnight Rider said:


> Isn't it interesting how most of the main stream media never seems to put a positive spin on the fact that currently there have been no major reports on a global scale that have confirmed those diagnosed with Omicron being hospitalized, ICU patients or deceased.


Actually, I listen to and watch mainstream media and that fact has been covered by them _and _the medical experts that they've interviewed.
Isn't it interesting that some people like to portray the mainstream media one way and one way only to suit thier own prejudice?


----------



## Choo5440

going from us humans, to mink in BC and now deer in quebec yay covid!



https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/covid-white-tailed-deer-quebec-1.6269947


----------



## Mikev7305

And not one of those deer were wearing a mask... better start vaccinating them too


----------



## Wardo

no more road kill for me


----------



## Midnight Rider

laristotle said:


> Dr ANGELIQUE COETZEE, who discovered Omicron says we are over-reacting
> 
> 
> Dr ANGELIQUE COETZEE: Nothing has prepared me for the extraordinary global reaction that met my announcement this week about the discovery of the Omicron variant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailymail.co.uk


Exactly,... this article is an excellent example of common sense and critical thinking,... however, it is unfortunate that only a handful of individuals visiting this thread will read it and in turn remain ignorant to the current facts which, if digested, could lessen their unnecessary level of knee jerk panic.

Great post,... keep them coming.


----------



## Midnight Rider

zztomato said:


> Actually, I listen to and watch mainstream media and that fact has been covered by them _and _the medical experts that they've interviewed.
> Isn't it interesting that some people like to portray the mainstream media one way and one way only to suit thier own prejudice?


I said _most_ of the mainstream media,... not all. I listen to some reliable mainstream media that present the truth,... but the numbers have been decreasing. Please don't suggest to us that _all _mainstream media is truthful, unbiased and without a prejudice narrative. That would be an extremely hard sell to anyone who can think for themselves.


----------



## Milkman

Well, I successfully made it through the Covid gauntlett and I'm back in my home office. I was at our Tennessee plant for a couple of days.

$40 for the rapid antigen test to enter the USA, $180 for the PCR test to return to Canada, plus a fair bit of time providing data via the Arrivecan app.

That was my first international trip since the pandemic started.

I suppose some of this will change but hopefully some of the experience I gained will make the next trip easier.


----------



## Jim DaddyO




----------



## Milkman

Midnight Rider said:


> I said _most_ of the mainstream media,... not all. I listen to some reliable mainstream media that present the truth,... but the numbers have been decreasing. Please don't suggest to us that _all _mainstream media is truthful, unbiased and without a prejudice narrative. That would be an extremely hard sell to anyone who can think for themselves.


Maybe I'm stating the obvious here, but it seems like almost ALL "mainstream media" bacame entertainment as opposed to news a long time ago. They should all be obliged to make a public statement to that effect much like pro wrassling had to many years ago.

And while I'm bitching and moaning, I have seen enough clips of people being vaccinated. I don't enjoy watching that and I know what it looks like. Showing me five or six similar clips within the first five minutes of the 6:00 O'clock news EVERY f%$king day is not appreciated or helpful. I turn my head so often I might as well be listening to the radio (or being checked for a hernia).

It's like they use those for filler. My wife and I call it needle porn.

Maybe some folks get off on it. We're vaccinated but jeez....


----------



## Jim DaddyO




----------



## greco

error


----------



## mhammer

Milkman said:


> Maybe I'm stating the obvious here, but it seems like almost ALL "mainstream media" bacame entertainment as opposed to news a long time ago. They should all be obliged to make a public statement to that effect much like pro wrassling had to many years ago.
> 
> And while I'm bitching and moaning, I have seen enough clips of people being vaccinated. I don't enjoy watching that and I know what it looks like. Showing me five or six similar clips within the first five minutes of the 6:00 O'clock news EVERY f%$king day is not appreciated or helpful. I turn my head so often I might as well be listening to the radio (or being checked for a hernia).
> 
> It's like they use those for filler. My wife and I call it needle porn.
> 
> Maybe some folks get off on it. We're vaccinated but jeez....


There was a time when one had a choice of maybe 5 stations to watch, each associated with an individual network. You got your news from a reputable televised source, possibly the radio, and the few newspapers showing up in your city/area. Cities that used to have 2 daily newspapers (in English) are now reduced to one (with the exception of "God's own city" - Toronto). BUT there is any number of on-line sources of "processed news information" (like "processed cheese food"), many of which are fly-by-night and sensationalistic, as well as that trustworthy source of paper-cup-through-a-string reporting: Facebook. The result is that mainstream news has to attempt to draw viewers away from other sources, and establish loyalty, rather than aim for credibility and trustworthiness. I've noticed that the Ottawa Citizen newspaper has had a LOT more full-page and half-page ads for things they would never have advertised before, in addition to a larger percentage of space going to advertainment. I can only assume that the cost-per-page of ad space has dropped, in order to attract advertisers, and that Postmedia has had to get desperate to support print media.

But WHY are they showing so many people getting aneedle stuck into their arm? I suspect it is a naive attempt to encourage the reluctant by demonstrating all these diverse people getting poked and smiling. You'll notice that nary a one ever winces, or at least is seen wincing. Not that it's at all painful, but we know some folks are apprehensive about needles and they wince in response to the sheer perception of a needle. But nobody who wishes to encourage immunization is going to show that on screen.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Milkman

mhammer said:


> There was a time when one had a choice of maybe 5 stations to watch, each associated with an individual network. You got your news from a reputable televised source, possibly the radio, and the few newspapers showing up in your city/area. Cities that used to have 2 daily newspapers (in English) are now reduced to one (with the exception of "God's own city" - Toronto). BUT there is any number of on-line sources of "processed news information" (like "processed cheese food"), many of which are fly-by-night and sensationalistic, as well as that trustworthy source of paper-cup-through-a-string reporting: Facebook. The result is that mainstream news has to attempt to draw viewers away from other sources, and establish loyalty, rather than aim for credibility and trustworthiness. I've noticed that the Ottawa Citizen newspaper has had a LOT more full-page and half-page ads for things they would never have advertised before, in addition to a larger percentage of space going to advertainment. I can only assume that the cost-per-page of ad space has dropped, in order to attract advertisers, and that Postmedia has had to get desperate to support print media.
> 
> But WHY are they showing so many people getting aneedle stuck into their arm? I suspect it is a naive attempt to encourage the reluctant by demonstrating all these diverse people getting poked and smiling.  You'll notice that nary a one ever winces, or at least is seen wincing. Not that it's at all painful, but we know some folks are apprehensive about needles and they wince in response to the sheer perception of a needle. But nobody who wishes to encourage immunization is going to show that on screen.


I have had two shots of Pfizer and also my flu shot.

Frankly after my surgery a couple of years ago, I'm pretty ok with getting whatever shots I deem important.

But, it's really still a bit of a creepy thing to watch and I find it hard to believe it's an incentive to ANYone to get the shot. Within the first five minutes of most "news" broadcasts you'll see five or six clips of someone getting a shot, sometimes the same clip repeatedly in the same hour.

It's pretty comspicuous filler. Trying for shock value? Maybe some people are getting desensitized but seriously, we both turn our heads. Maybe it's just us.

I've always been squeamish about syringes. They're a necessary evil I guess (as hard as that is to understand). This is 2021 after all. Where's my jet car et cetera.


----------



## Guitar101

Milkman said:


> Maybe I'm stating the obvious here, but it seems like almost ALL "mainstream media" bacame entertainment as opposed to news a long time ago. They should all be obliged to make a public statement to that effect much like pro wrassling had to many years ago.
> 
> And while I'm bitching and moaning, I have seen enough clips of people being vaccinated. I don't enjoy watching that and I know what it looks like. Showing me five or six similar clips within the first five minutes of the 6:00 O'clock news EVERY f%$king day is not appreciated or helpful. I turn my head so often I might as well be listening to the radio (or being checked for a hernia).
> 
> It's like they use those for filler. My wife and I call it needle porn.
> 
> Maybe some folks get off on it. We're vaccinated but jeez....


Here's a test to see if your paying attention: Do you know what those coloured plastic pieces are that are attached to the syringes that hold the vaccine?


----------



## Milkman

Guitar101 said:


> Here's a test to see if your paying attention: Do you know what those coloured plastic pieces are that are attached to the syringes that hold the vaccine?


No, I try not to look, LOL.

Don't know what if anything was attached to the syringes that were used on me.


----------



## Guitar101

Man up and watch the next commercial to see what I'm talking about.  😷
I'll just leave leave you hang'in until someone chimes in.


----------



## Choo5440

Guitar101 said:


> Here's a test to see if your paying attention: Do you know what those coloured plastic pieces are that are attached to the syringes that hold the vaccine?




I'm a nurse, and I have no idea what you're talking about


----------



## Sneaky

Guitar101 said:


> Here's a test to see if your paying attention: Do you know what those coloured plastic pieces are that are attached to the syringes that hold the vaccine?


Let me guess? It’s the part that contains the microchip.


----------



## laristotle

Guitar101 said:


> Here's a test to see if your paying attention: Do you know what those coloured plastic pieces are that are attached to the syringes that hold the vaccine?


this?


----------



## laristotle

Sneaky said:


> Let me guess? It’s the part that contains the microchip.


that looks like this.
but, how could you ascertain one chip per dose instead of all five into one person?


----------



## Guitar101

Anyone??? See Laristotle's pic. When I got my booster shot last week, I asked the pharmacist what the little coloured plastic piece was and he said I was the first one to ask him that question in the two years since all this started. Then he showed me what it is for.


----------



## tomee2

Guitar101 said:


> Anyone??? See Laristotle's pic. When I got my booster shot last week, I asked the pharmacist what the little coloured plastic piece was and he said I was the first one to asked him that question in the two years since all this started. Then he showed me what it is for.


My guess is it covers the needle after use


----------



## allthumbs56

tomee2 said:


> My guess is it covers the needle after use


That or a depth gauge


----------



## Guitar101

tomee2 said:


> My guess is it covers the needle after use


You got it. The reason I asked the question was I thought it must cost a lot more for the millions of syringes with that feature than the older syringes I used for vaccinating my cattle. When I found out it's a safety issue, all's good.

Good try allthumbs56 but their not tiny submarines.


----------



## Paul Running

The 5G microchip conspiracy theory diagram for the Covid vaccine is copied from the schematic of a Boss Metal Zone guitar pedal:



https://www.metalsucks.net/2021/01/05/this-5g-microchip-conspiracy-theory-diagram-is-actually-a-boss-metal-zone-guitar-pedal/


----------



## Midnight Rider

Choo5440 said:


> going from us humans, to mink in BC and now deer in quebec yay covid!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/covid-white-tailed-deer-quebec-1.6269947


What I want to know is who has been french kissing these deer, inviting them over for dinner or just meandering through the woods hanging out with the herds. I've been out hunting deer and moose this fall and haven't seen any sign of wildlife carcasses littering the forest floor,... no sign of the deer and moose I was pursuing having high fevers either.

Also no signs of the deer being concerned to the point of setting up their own vaccination clinics,... but to be honest I did overhear a handful talking about scoring some Ivermectin, Hydroxychloroquine and Antiviral therapy from other sources of the wildlife community.












Where's Gary Larson when you need him.


----------



## mhammer

Single-use pointy objects, whether they be scalpel blades, needles, or whatever, are disposed of in a plastic receptacle reserved for "sharps". The little plastic attachment shown (which is generally pink in our region; different supplier, I guess) is to cover the needle tip so that those who have to handle the "sharps" for disposal don't accidentally get poked with something contagious.

I wish there were plastic covers like that for mosquitoes, so that whomever/whatever they poked their noses into was made them "single use".


----------



## Midnight Rider

Paul Running said:


> The 5G microchip conspiracy theory diagram for the Covid vaccine is copied from the schematic of a Boss Metal Zone guitar pedal:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.metalsucks.net/2021/01/05/this-5g-microchip-conspiracy-theory-diagram-is-actually-a-boss-metal-zone-guitar-pedal/


Just tossed out my Boss Metal Zone pedal into my neighbours recycle bin.


----------



## Choo5440

Guitar101 said:


> You got it. The reason I asked the question was I thought it must cost a lot more for the millions of syringes with that feature than the older syringes I used for vaccinating my cattle. When I found out it's a safety issue, all's good.
> 
> Good try allthumbs56 but their not tiny submarines.


Ha, ok. So the syringe is the plastic barrel + plunger, and then the needle (+safety) is a separate part for me.

Yes, it's a safety, though I've had the misfortune of getting stuck with one anyway


----------



## Midnight Rider

https://uhnfoundation.ca/stories/wo...MIttzr-fvF9AIV45JbCh32Rgy1EAAYASAAEgKI__D_BwE
*World-first UHN study shows antiviral therapy accelerates clearance of COVID-19*
COVID-19, Liver | February 5, 2021
‹ Back to Stories

_Dr. Jordan Feld, Co-Director of the Schwartz Reisman Liver Research Centre and the R. Phelan
Chair in Translational Liver Research at University Health Network._
A clinical study led by Dr. Jordan Feld, Co-Director of the Schwartz Reisman Liver Research Centre and the R. Phelan Chair in Translational Liver Research at University Health Network (UHN), showed an experimental antiviral drug can significantly speed up recovery for COVID-19 outpatients – patients who do not need to be hospitalized. 
This could become an important intervention to treat infected patients and help curb community spread, while COVID-19 vaccines are rolled out this year. The study was supported by Toronto General & Western Hospital Foundation donors, together with other funding sources. 
“This treatment has large therapeutic potential, especially at this moment as we see aggressive variants of the virus spreading around the globe which are less sensitive to both vaccines and treatment with antibodies,” says Dr. Feld, who is also Research Director of the Toronto Centre for Liver Disease at UHN. 
Treatment benefits and public health impact 
According to the study, published today in _Lancet Respiratory Medicine_, patients who received a single injection of peginterferon-lambda were over four times more likely to have cleared the infection within seven days, when compared to a group treated with placebo. 
“People who were treated cleared the virus quickly, and the effect was most pronounced in those with the highest viral levels. We also saw a trend towards quicker improvement of respiratory symptoms in the treatment group,” explains Dr. Feld – who translated his knowledge of peginterferon lambda usage for viral hepatitis to research on COVID-19 treatment. 
Rapid clearance has many benefits, particularly in those with high viral levels, as those cases are associated with more severe disease and a higher risk of transmission to others. 
Bringing down the virus level quickly prevents people from getting worse and likely reduces the risk of spreading the disease to others. This may have important additional public health impact. 
“If we can decrease the virus level quickly, people are less likely to spread the infection to others and we may even be able to shorten the time required for self-isolation,” says Dr. Feld. 
Treatment may have same benefit for COVID-19 virus variants 
Interferon-lambda is a protein produced by the body in response to viral infections. It has the ability to activate a number of cellular pathways to kill invading viruses. 
The coronavirus that causes COVID-19 prevents the body from producing interferons, which is one way it avoids being controlled by the body’s immune system. Treatment with interferon-lambda activates those same virus-killing pathways in the cells. 
Because interferon activates many virus-killing pathways, resistance due to “new strains” of the virus, which could be an issue with some therapies, is not a concern with interferon-lambda. 
Interferon-lambda is different from other interferons because it uses a receptor that is only present in some tissues in the body. It is very active in the lung, the liver and the intestine, all places where the COVID-19 virus is able to replicate, but it is not active in other places leading to significantly fewer side effects than other interferons. In the trial, those treated with interferon-lambda had similar side effects to those who received placebo. 
Peginterferon-lambda (used in this study) is a long-acting version, which can be given as a single injection under the skin with a tiny needle (like insulin). 

*Next steps *
With these positive results, a large phase 3 trial is planned to start at UHN in the near future. Additional studies are ongoing at the University of Toronto, Harvard University and Johns Hopkins University with peginterferon-lambda in hospitalized patients, and in settings where it can be used to prevent infection in those who have been exposed.


----------



## mhammer

Midnight Rider said:


> https://uhnfoundation.ca/stories/wo...MIttzr-fvF9AIV45JbCh32Rgy1EAAYASAAEgKI__D_BwE
> *World-first UHN study shows antiviral therapy accelerates clearance of COVID-19*
> COVID-19, Liver | February 5, 2021
> ‹ Back to Stories
> 
> _Dr. Jordan Feld, Co-Director of the Schwartz Reisman Liver Research Centre and the R. Phelan
> Chair in Translational Liver Research at University Health Network._
> A clinical study led by Dr. Jordan Feld, Co-Director of the Schwartz Reisman Liver Research Centre and the R. Phelan Chair in Translational Liver Research at University Health Network (UHN), showed an experimental antiviral drug can significantly speed up recovery for COVID-19 outpatients – patients who do not need to be hospitalized.
> This could become an important intervention to treat infected patients and help curb community spread, while COVID-19 vaccines are rolled out this year. The study was supported by Toronto General & Western Hospital Foundation donors, together with other funding sources.
> “This treatment has large therapeutic potential, especially at this moment as we see aggressive variants of the virus spreading around the globe which are less sensitive to both vaccines and treatment with antibodies,” says Dr. Feld, who is also Research Director of the Toronto Centre for Liver Disease at UHN.
> Treatment benefits and public health impact
> According to the study, published today in _Lancet Respiratory Medicine_, patients who received a single injection of peginterferon-lambda were over four times more likely to have cleared the infection within seven days, when compared to a group treated with placebo.
> “People who were treated cleared the virus quickly, and the effect was most pronounced in those with the highest viral levels. We also saw a trend towards quicker improvement of respiratory symptoms in the treatment group,” explains Dr. Feld – who translated his knowledge of peginterferon lambda usage for viral hepatitis to research on COVID-19 treatment.
> Rapid clearance has many benefits, particularly in those with high viral levels, as those cases are associated with more severe disease and a higher risk of transmission to others.
> Bringing down the virus level quickly prevents people from getting worse and likely reduces the risk of spreading the disease to others. This may have important additional public health impact.
> “If we can decrease the virus level quickly, people are less likely to spread the infection to others and we may even be able to shorten the time required for self-isolation,” says Dr. Feld.
> Treatment may have same benefit for COVID-19 virus variants
> Interferon-lambda is a protein produced by the body in response to viral infections. It has the ability to activate a number of cellular pathways to kill invading viruses.
> The coronavirus that causes COVID-19 prevents the body from producing interferons, which is one way it avoids being controlled by the body’s immune system. Treatment with interferon-lambda activates those same virus-killing pathways in the cells.
> Because interferon activates many virus-killing pathways, resistance due to “new strains” of the virus, which could be an issue with some therapies, is not a concern with interferon-lambda.
> Interferon-lambda is different from other interferons because it uses a receptor that is only present in some tissues in the body. It is very active in the lung, the liver and the intestine, all places where the COVID-19 virus is able to replicate, but it is not active in other places leading to significantly fewer side effects than other interferons. In the trial, those treated with interferon-lambda had similar side effects to those who received placebo.
> Peginterferon-lambda (used in this study) is a long-acting version, which can be given as a single injection under the skin with a tiny needle (like insulin).
> 
> *Next steps *
> With these positive results, a large phase 3 trial is planned to start at UHN in the near future. Additional studies are ongoing at the University of Toronto, Harvard University and Johns Hopkins University with peginterferon-lambda in hospitalized patients, and in settings where it can be used to prevent infection in those who have been exposed.


Encouraging. Of course, the best strategy is to simply not get infected in the first place.


----------



## Milkman

I just scheduled my booster shot for Monday morning. I'll be scheduling boosters for my wife and daughter as they become eligible.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Many countries are excluding the non vaccinated from a lot of public life. In Germany you can't even get an assisted suicide without being vaccinated. The reason being is that you are usually surrounded by loved ones when it happens.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> Many countries are excluding the non vaccinated from a lot of public life. In Germany you can't even get an assisted suicide without being vaccinated. The reason being is that you are usually surrounded by loved ones when it happens.


I am reminded of cleaning the site with an alcohol swab before the prisoner's lethal injection.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

It seems that having had Covid (Beta and Delta variants) and recovering is not much immune protection against the Omicron varient. You still have a pretty good chance of being reinfected.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> It seems that having had Covid (Beta and Delta variants) and recovering is not much immune protection against the Omicron varient. You still have a pretty good chance of being reinfected.


Sure sounds that way.

The big unknowns at this point are, how will it affect fully vaccinated people, and how nasty will the infection be for everyone - across all age groups. Those unknowns could either put a real boost - or a real dent in Big Pharma.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

allthumbs56 said:


> Sure sounds that way.
> 
> The big unknowns at this point are, how will it affect fully vaccinated people, and how nasty will the infection be for everyone - across all age groups. Those unknowns could either put a real boost - or a real dent in Big Pharma.


You're correct. We don't know what we don't know yet.

Another question is that if the Omicron variant spreads, which it will, likely to become the dominant strain, what will it's next mutation be?


----------



## mhammer

Let us distinguish among degrees of "protection": a) no infection, b) asymptomatic infection, c) mild symptomatic infection, d) more serious-but-recoverable infection requiring hospitalization, and e) fatal infection. As I understand it, vaccination still provides protection against serious illness from the Omicron variant. Exactly what level of protection is uncertain until more data comes in, but as has been noted of late, the preponderance of cases requiring hospitalization these days are Delta variant among the unvaccinated. So, if this new variant comes-a-knockin', but you're fully vaxed, you may not particularly like the consequences, but you'll be able to complain about it to friends at the local Tim Horton's before year's end. And that's better than whining to St. Peter.


----------



## Jim DaddyO




----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> Let us distinguish among degrees of "protection": a) no infection, b) asymptomatic infection, c) mild symptomatic infection, d) more serious-but-recoverable infection requiring hospitalization, and e) fatal infection. *As I understand it, vaccination still provides protection against serious illness from the Omicron variant*. Exactly what level of protection is uncertain until more data comes in, but as has been noted of late, the preponderance of cases requiring hospitalization these days are Delta variant among the unvaccinated. So, if this new variant comes-a-knockin', but you're fully vaxed, you may not particularly like the consequences, but you'll be able to complain about it to friends at the local Tim Horton's before year's end. And that's better than whining to St. Peter.


According to the video - at this point we can only hope and assume that vaccination will be of some use. Apparently natural immunity looks useless. Time will tell.


----------



## zztomato

Jim DaddyO said:


>


The Lord works in mysterious ways...


----------



## Wardo

So I'm guessing it's not a good idea to play at the Rockpile this Sunday.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Wardo said:


> So I'm guessing it's not a good idea to play at the Rockpile this Sunday.


It's only dangerous if you breath.


----------



## mhammer

There's always the Flaming Lips approach.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Jim DaddyO said:


> Many countries are excluding the non vaccinated from a lot of public life. In Germany you can't even get an assisted suicide without being vaccinated. The reason being is that you are usually surrounded by loved ones when it happens.


F'n idiots.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Midnight Rider said:


> F'n idiots.


I agree. If you’ve decided that you want to end it, why would you still refuse the vaccine?


----------



## Wardo

Where I live, if you wanted to end it, you just have to go downtown and ask around; there will be no shortage of people be just happy to put a bullet in the back your head for the fun of it. Now that is assisted suicide in sanctuary loozer city toronto, canada …lol


----------



## Diablo

We’d better hope omicron is mild. I’m seeing more people going around in public maskless and without distancing than I can recall…at the arena, dollar store, wherever they feel bold. that is, not at a Home Depot where some tough guy might call them out.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


>



He found out that Covid is real and God isn't.


----------



## Lincoln

I booked my third shot today. 😋 

We've still got guys at work who refuse to get vaccinated. The silly thing about it is they are not anti-vax, they are anti-government. They won't do it just because the government is pushing them towards it.


----------



## Paul Running

Lincoln said:


> I booked my third shot today. 😋
> 
> We've still got guys at work who refuse to get vaccinated. The silly thing about it is they are not anti-vax, they are anti-government. They won't do it just because the government is pushing them towards it.


or they don't want a Boss MetalZone stuck in their arm muscle.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> He found out that Covid is real and God isn't.


If God actually thought the vaccine was bad, then this dude, who ranted for 2 years against it, would be alive, or would have died from ANYTHING else other than the one thing the vaccine could have saved him from.

Or... He doesn't like blasphemers

Or... You're right, he isn't real


----------



## Lincoln

Paul Running said:


> or they don't want a Boss MetalZone stuck in their arm muscle.


Long as they hit the muscle it's all good. From what I've read, problems start when they accidently inject into a blood vessel.


----------



## keto

Lincoln said:


> I booked my third shot today. 😋
> 
> We've still got guys at work who refuse to get vaccinated. The silly thing about it is they are not anti-vax, they are anti-government. They won't do it just because the government is pushing them towards it.


We can’t get until end Dec. We will when we can, the numbers don’t lie.


----------



## Midnight Rider




----------



## colchar

Lincoln said:


> I booked my third shot today. 😋
> 
> We've still got guys at work who refuse to get vaccinated. The silly thing about it is they are not anti-vax, they are anti-government. They won't do it just because the government is pushing them towards it.


One of those guys was on the news a few months back after he had caught Covid and ended up in the ICU. He spoke out to warn others and hadn't been at all anti-vax, his was a political stance against government mandates. Being a rebel without a clue almost cost him his life.


----------



## colchar

keto said:


> We can’t get until end Dec. We will when we can, the numbers don’t lie.



As of December 13th I will qualify, except that I won't have hit six months yet. That happens ten days later and I will be booking that appointment as soon as I am able to.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> Being a rebel without a clue almost cost him his life.


and when things start going down the tubes, who are the first to be pointing fingers at inaction by the same people they are "rebelling" against?


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> and when things start going down the tubes, who are the first to be pointing fingers at inaction by the same people they are "rebelling" against?



Yeah, and they're too dumb to grasp the hypocrisy.


----------



## Guitar101

colchar said:


> As of December 13th I will qualify, except that I won't have hit six months yet. That happens ten days later and I will be booking that appointment as soon as I am able to.


You should check this out:




__





Ontario Newsroom







news.ontario.ca





_Starting on Monday, December 13, 2021 at 8:00 a.m., individuals aged 50 and over will be eligible to schedule their booster dose appointment through the COVID-19 vaccination portal, by calling the Provincial Vaccine Contact Centre, through Indigenous-led vaccination clinics, select pharmacies and primary care settings. Appointments will be booked for approximately six months (168 days) after a second dose._

If it's been 168 days since your 2nd shot, you should qualify at the nearest pharmacy that is taking booster appointments.









PharmaChoice Pharmacies - Prescriptions, Health Products & Support


PharmaChoice has hundreds of pharmacies located throughout Canada. Patients and customers alike can fill prescriptions, access health advice from trusted pharmacists, save on everyday products, and so much more! Contact us today for more information.




www.pharmachoice.com




You might try a PharmaChoice near you. They are taking booster appointments.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Guitar101 said:


> You should check this out:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> __
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario Newsroom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> news.ontario.ca


Ontario Newsroom
_"In addition to vaccines, clinical trials for molnupiravir, an investigational oral therapy for the treatment of COVID-19 began on October 19, 2020 and is currently in progress at the University Health Network in Toronto and Juravinski Hospital in Hamilton. If approved, molnupiravir will be a five-day oral treatment for high-risk unvaccinated patients with mild to moderate COVID-19 and could be the first such treatment that can be taken outside of a health care facility. Ontario is preparing a strategy for the deployment of approved treatments, ensuring access where it is most needed in the province."
_
Finally,...an anti-viral drug alternative to vaccines. Could common sense actually be infiltrating the minds of health officials and politicians?, 
Molnupiravir, (brand name 'Lagevrio'), was approved for medical use in Britain November 2021. I'm not saying it is the 'Silver Bullet' antidote to Covid,... but either is the vaccine, as we have been witnessing with breakthrough infection cases of fully vaccinated. Perhaps Molnupiravir will assist in keeping Covid at bay while we wait for it to weaken to the point of a minimal to non life threatening virus,... just as many pandemic viruses had in the past. 




_"While the best defence against the Omicron variant remains containing it at the border, Ontario has the infrastructure in place to rapidly identify, trace and isolate COVID-19 and its variants."_

Containing it at the border?,... too late, lol,... and literally impossible. The good news is,... there is currently not one reported death anywhere in the world,(38 countries), due to the Omicron variant. Obviously this is reason to believe it may not be a variant that is as aggressive as Delta perhaps indicating that the virus is running out of steam. Don't think Omicron is just purposely sitting idle in the infected and waiting until the entire population of Earth contracts the infection so it can flip the switch and wipe us all out with one fell swoop,... but I'm sure Hollywood or some news agency is writing that script somewhere in a dark cold musty root cellar. 

Breath in,...breath out,... things are looking good with are battle against Covid. There is sunshine on the horizon. 

*Norcimo*: _Perfection in all aspects_,... uh-oh,... did I just trigger some far out conspiracy theory?


----------



## Guitar101

Midnight Rider said:


> The good news is,... there is currently not one reported death anywhere in the world,(38 countries), due to the Omicron variant. Obviously this is reason to believe it may not be a variant that is as aggressive as Delta perhaps indicating that the virus is running out of steam. Breath in,...breath out,... things are looking good with are battle against Covid. There is sunshine on the horizon.


This could be the answer to our problem with anti-vaxxers refusing to get vaccinated. Give them the Omicron variant and make them self isolate for 14 days therefore creating the natural immunity they so desire. 😷


----------



## Milkman

Freedom of religion?

Great concept, but if you thump on that, please don't show up at the hospital later when your particular brand of magic fails to save your sorry ass.

That's called hypocracy IMO.

I'll be getting my Pfizer booster shot at 10:35 AM today. Anybody who wants to take their chances with other approaches can fill their boots.


----------



## laristotle

I find this parade of animosity towards the vaccine hesitant (unvaxxed! unclean! leper!) perplexing. 
Vaccine science (and the narrative) states that once vaxxed (twice, and a booster (then another booster down the road? then again, and again ..) they're protected, right?
Why are they worried so much?
The vaccine doesn't stop one from acquiring/transmitting covid. They're are just less prone from feeling the effects as badly.
If anything, the hesitant are more afraid of the vaxxed because of the 'return to normal lifestyles' attitude that's being embraced, thereby continuing the spread.

IMO


----------



## Milkman

laristotle said:


> I find this parade of animosity towards the vaccine hesitant (unvaxxed! unclean! leper!) perplexing.
> Vaccine science (and the narrative) states that once vaxxed (twice, and a booster (then another booster down the road? then again, and again ..) they're protected, right?
> Why are they worried so much?
> The vaccine doesn't stop one from acquiring/transmitting covid. They're are just less prone from feeling the effects as badly.
> If anything, the hesitant are more afraid of the vaxxed because of the 'return to normal lifestyles' attitude that's being embraced, thereby continuing the spread.
> 
> IMO


Why? Because the vaccine hesitant are helping the virus to continue spreading and mutating.

A part of the reason we HAVE to think about boosters is because some still get their science from social media.

Remember when we were kids? Do you remember your parents raising a fuss over you getting your polio, measels, mumps, rubella et cetera vaccinations? I don't.


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> I find this parade of animosity towards the vaccine hesitant (unvaxxed! unclean! leper!) perplexing.
> Vaccine science (and the narrative) states that once vaxxed (twice, and a booster (then another booster down the road? then again, and again ..) they're protected, right?
> Why are they worried so much?
> The vaccine doesn't stop one from acquiring/transmitting covid. They're are just less prone from feeling the effects as badly.
> If anything, the hesitant are more afraid of the vaxxed because of the 'return to normal lifestyles' attitude that's being embraced, thereby continuing the spread.
> 
> IMO


You keep promoting it and I keep correcting it:

The vaccine does indeed go a great way to stopping the transmission of the virus by an order of 4 to 6 times. In Ontario there are 13.9 cases per 100,000 unvaccinated versus 3.66 cases per 100,000 for the vaccinated:






Datasets - Ontario Data Catalogue







covid-19.ontario.ca





Please fix the misinformation you're continuing to maintain.


----------



## Choo5440

laristotle said:


> I find this parade of animosity towards the vaccine hesitant (unvaxxed! unclean! leper!) perplexing.
> Vaccine science (and the narrative) states that once vaxxed (twice, and a booster (then another booster down the road? then again, and again ..) they're protected, right?
> Why are they worried so much?
> The vaccine doesn't stop one from acquiring/transmitting covid. They're are just less prone from feeling the effects as badly.
> If anything, the hesitant are more afraid of the vaxxed because of the 'return to normal lifestyles' attitude that's being embraced, thereby continuing the spread.
> 
> IMO


Being vaccinated helps reduce viral loads which leads to lower chances of transmission, leading to reduced spread.

But my biggest gripe is those who choose to be unvaccinated and then "choosing" to lead normal lives. If a person knowingly chooses not to be vaccinated and then live like a hermit, I'm A-OK with that.


----------



## Choo5440

and just saw this cross my news feed:









Italian man tries to dodge Covid vaccine wearing fake arm


Anti-vaxxer is facing charges of fraud after turning up for jab with silicone arm in Biella




www.theguardian.com





the lengths people will go to boggle my mind.


----------



## FatStrat2

Frankly, I could care less if I catch this new variant or spread it to others. All indications point to the symptoms being mild and will actually help immunize everyone against new & old variants. Speaking of which, it's a variant, not a new strain - so I'm doing my duty to immunize everyone naturally by spitting on everyone I disagree with.

Seriously, it's almost guaranteed that some of my previous colds or flus from decades back probably killed off a few dozen older people or those with compromised immune systems - and everyone along the chain helped in that carnage, and they never knew it. That's life in our crowded modern civilization, get used to it.


----------



## allthumbs56

FatStrat2 said:


> *Frankly, I could care less if I catch this new variant or spread it to others.*


You must be very popular at parties


----------



## laristotle

Milkman said:


> the vaccine hesitant are helping the virus to continue spreading and mutating


As are the vaxxed.


allthumbs56 said:


> 3.66 cases per 100,000 for the vaccinated
> Please fix the misinformation you're continuing to maintain


That the vaxxed are also capable of acquiring/spreading it?
Show me otherwise.


----------



## Milkman

laristotle said:


> As are the vaxxed.











No, vaccinated people are not 'just as infectious' as unvaccinated people if they get COVID


A vaccinated person is less likely to get COVID, is less contagious, and is contagious for a shorter time.




theconversation.com


----------



## zztomato

allthumbs56 said:


> In Ontario there are 13.9 cases per 100,000 unvaccinated versus 3.66 cases per 100,000 for the vaccinated:


The thing about this stat is that is doesn't account for the characteristics of the individual. Those who refuse to get the vaccine are probably much more likely to generally disregard public health recommendations and therefore much more likely to be exposed. Those who are vaccinated are more likely to be continuing to avoid exposure. I'm not suggesting that the vaccines are not doing what they should be doing, but it's kind of clear that they are about as good as a flu vaccine - good protection but not perfect.


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> That the vaxxed are also capable of acquiring/spreading it?
> Show me otherwise.


I just did. 

80% less likely. In school that's a pretty good grade. However, If you're gonna insist on an "all or none" approach then by your logic you might as well also say that "all people are murderers" too.


----------



## laristotle

Milkman said:


> No, vaccinated people are not 'just as infectious' as unvaccinated people if they get COVID
> 
> 
> A vaccinated person is less likely to get COVID, is less contagious, and is contagious for a shorter time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> theconversation.com


_If you’re one of the unlucky few vaccinated people who get a breakthrough infection, it does mean you have to follow the health advice given to you.

Even though you may not feel sick, you *still have the capacity to spread the virus* to a vulnerable person around you._


allthumbs56 said:


> If you're gonna insist on an "all or none" approach


At what point did I suggest that?


----------



## FatStrat2

allthumbs56 said:


> You must be very popular at parties


You're wrong. People stay away from me like I've got some type of disease or something.


----------



## mhammer

zztomato said:


> The thing about this stat is that is doesn't account for the characteristics of the individual. Those who refuse to get the vaccine are probably much more likely to generally disregard public health recommendations and therefore much more likely to be exposed. *Those who are vaccinated are more likely to be continuing to avoid exposure*. I'm not suggesting that the vaccines are not doing what they should be doing, but it's kind of clear that they are about as good as a flu vaccine - good protection but not perfect.


Yes and no. Some likely will and DO behave as you describe. But there are others who perceive themselves to now be bulletproof, because they are vaxed, and at liberty to live life as they did before. Keep in mind that even as vaccination rates go up and up, recent case-counts (especially as restrictions get lifted) are higher now than they have been in a while, and it's primarily Delta, not any new variant.

As one who neither dines out much, takes public transit these days, goes to concerts or sporting events, or works in a factory (nothing against any of that - I just have little reason to engage in it), I have no sense of how adherent employers and establishments are to public health guidelines.

Again, I will note that the "problem" with the Delta variant is that, even for someone who has been fully vaccinated, if it has been a while since that 2nd shot, your immune system is essentially in sleeper mode. It can be easily awoken to fight against the Delta variant, but that particular variant replicates VERY quickly. The problem is that, by the time your immune system is fully on the job, the virus has provided a much larger viral load in a shorter period of time than early variants normally did. So, you'll get infected, your T-cells will say "Huh? Wha? Lemme get my shoes on. Hold your horses, I'm coming. Ohhhh....THAAAAAAT", you'll feel like crap for a while, will have enough of a viral load that you're pretty darn infectious and at risk of spreading to others, and will eventually fight it off and return to the land of the living.

There's a lot of rather unpleasant and risky ground between being healthy as a horse, and dying from this. It's not all-or-nothing, but rather a game of probabilities and relative risk. One does what one can to alter risk and probabilities, even if the increment attributable to each step is small. The problem, as I see it, is that far too many are behaving as if it IS "all-or-nothing", and that being vaccinated, and having so much of the overall populace fully vaccinated, has now magically put us in the clear; as if the virus has declared defeat and signed a peace treaty.


----------



## laristotle

laristotle said:


> I find this parade of animosity towards the vaccine hesitant (unvaxxed! unclean! leper!) perplexing.


----------



## colchar

Milkman said:


> Freedom of religion?



It has already been determined that there is no religion which has a legitimate prohibition against the vaccines.


----------



## colchar

laristotle said:


> I find this parade of animosity towards the vaccine hesitant (unvaxxed! unclean! leper!) perplexing.
> Vaccine science (and the narrative) states that once vaxxed (twice, and a booster (then another booster down the road? then again, and again ..) they're protected, right?



No vaccine is 100% effective, and people being unvaxxed allows it to spread and mutate which could lead to a new variant that is immune to our vaccines.


----------



## colchar

FatStrat2 said:


> I could care less



That doesn't mean what you think it means.


----------



## Choo5440

Milkman said:


> Freedom of religion?
> 
> Great concept, but if you thump on that, please don't show up at the hospital later when your particular brand of magic fails to save your sorry ass.
> 
> That's called hypocracy IMO.
> 
> I'll be getting my Pfizer booster shot at 10:35 AM today. Anybody who wants to take their chances with other approaches can fill their boots.


I got laid out after getting mine last month, although I got my flu shot at the same time. Was in bed until 4pm, when i migrated to my couch and proceeded to sleep another 3-4 hours . hope you can rest up, and wishing you no side effects!


----------



## Milkman

Choo5440 said:


> I got laid out after getting mine last month, although I got my flu shot at the same time. Was in bed until 4pm, when i migrated to my couch and proceeded to sleep another 3-4 hours . hope you can rest up, and wishing you no side effects!


Well I'm sorry to hear that. I heard similar reports from friends after their second shot. All I had was a sore shoulder for a day or so.

This time, I arrived and was turned away. The BCHU website allwed me to make the appointment. I answered all questions accurately and honestly and when my turn came they said, sorry, you're not taking drugs relating to an immunocomprimised condition so you'll have to wait another week.

I offered to show her my surgical scar but she didn't seem interested (can't say I blame her).

I really don't mind waiting my fair turn, but it would have been nice to know that before wasting an hour driving there and back and waiting in line, just to be turned away for trying to to the right thing.

Oh well, I'm not going anywhere in the near future. I'll wait another week.


----------



## Choo5440

ugh, sucks that they didn't have their stuff together to start. kinda surprised that they didn't just give it to you after all the other requirements were met.


----------



## colchar

Choo5440 said:


> I got laid out after getting mine last month, although I got my flu shot at the same time. Was in bed until 4pm, when i migrated to my couch and proceeded to sleep another 3-4 hours . hope you can rest up, and wishing you no side effects!


I read the first couple of words of that post and thought it was going to go in an entirely different direction.


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> I read the first couple of words of that post and thought it was going to go in an entirely different direction.


Penthouse Virus Forum?


----------



## Choo5440

HA
was definitely in no shape to do anything of the sort


----------



## FatStrat2

colchar said:


> That doesn't mean what you think it means.


Sure I do, but I couldn't care less about your response. Or could I...?

Check this link for some education. 

Summary = Correct Usage: Either


----------



## 2manyGuitars

The whole “but the vaccinated can get it and spread it too..”.

The vaccinated have a much lower viral load which means they’re less likely to spread it and less likely to cause mutations.
Think of viral load like having babies. The vaccinated have 2 or 3 kids. They run around and cause shit but on a manageable scale. The unvaccinated have 10 kids. The get into more people’s business and there’s also the increased risk of “mutations”.

Now, with Delta, the viral load is closer in both groups. If there hadn’t been millions of people refusing to get vaccinated, acting as human incubators, the Delta variant may not have taken hold.

Like I’ve said a few times already in this thread, you do you but stop pretending that your actions don’t have consequences for the rest of society.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

And I also love this oldie but a goodie...

“You said that if we wore masks, practiced social distancing, and got vaccinated, we could get rid of COVID. Well, COVID isn’t going away.”
“Did you do any of those things?”
“No. Why would I? They don’t work.”


----------



## colchar

FatStrat2 said:


> Sure I do, but I couldn't care less about your response. Or could I...?
> 
> Check this link for some education.
> 
> Summary = Correct Usage: Either



Just because something has entered common usage and been accepted, does not make it correct. All that means is that we have given in to people too stupid to use the proper saying.

Going by the definition of the words included, 'I could care less" does not mean the same as "I couldn't care less".

Many of us still prefer something approximating proper English, and have no yet given in the the lowest common denominator. And many of us prefer the definitive dictionary - the OED - to others like Webster's especially when Webster's uses examples at that link that do not mean what they seem to hink they mean. Talk about a facepalm moment!


----------



## FatStrat2

^ Nah, you're confused again (as usual). I'm almost sorry for you, but not quite.

Getting back on topic, it was very simple crossing the US border, about 60 seconds. I was 5th in line coming back, but it still took over 90 minutes to cross back into what felt like our banana republic of Canada. Our guards are just awful about COVID, they're more bullies than protectors of our borders.


----------



## keto

2manyGuitars said:


> The whole “but the vaccinated can get it and spread it too..”.
> 
> The vaccinated have a much lower viral load which means they’re less likely to spread it and less likely to cause mutations.
> Think of viral load like having babies. The vaccinated have 2 or 3 kids. They run around and cause shit but on a manageable scale. The unvaccinated have 10 kids. The get into more people’s business and there’s also the increased risk of “mutations”.
> 
> Now, with Delta, the viral load is closer in both groups. If there hadn’t been millions of people refusing to get vaccinated, acting as human incubators, the Delta variant may not have taken hold.
> 
> Like I’ve said a few times already in this thread, you do you but stop pretending that your actions don’t have consequences for the rest of society.


Re: Delta, I just don't see any way this is true. Not enough of the world has been vaxed in the first place, and you know how virulent it is...it was coming, like it or not, though I would give you reduced impacts, which is something.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Guitar101 said:


> This could be the answer to our problem with anti-vaxxers refusing to get vaccinated. Give them the Omicron variant and make them self isolate for 14 days therefore creating the natural immunity they so desire. 😷


I'm already one of those. Had Covid in 2020 and fully recovered. Rough go for a spell but no hospitalization required.
Protected the old fashioned way I suppose and some health officials say just as or more effective than the needle. Certainly can't be any worse as we now know there have been breakthrough infections of those who were fully vaccinated by way of the pharmaceutical industry.

Absolutely love my innate and adaptive immune systems,... a couple of genuine pals.


----------



## Milkman

Midnight Rider said:


> I'm already one of those. Had Covid in 2020 and fully recovered. Rough go for a spell but no hospitalization required.
> Protected the old fashioned way I suppose and some health officials say just as or more effective than the needle. Certainly can't be any worse as we now know there have been breakthrough infections of those who were fully vaccinated by way of the pharmaceutical industry.
> 
> Absolutely love my innate and adaptive immune systems,... a couple of genuine pals.


I'm glad your immune system saved you.

Many others were not so lucky.

I'm not inclined to gamble with those cards.


----------



## Guitar101

Midnight Rider said:


> I'm already one of those. Had Covid in 2020 and fully recovered. Rough go for a spell but no hospitalization required.
> Protected the old fashioned way I suppose and some health officials say just as or more effective than the needle. Certainly can't be any worse as we now know there have been breakthrough infections of those who were fully vaccinated by way of the pharmaceutical industry.
> 
> Absolutely love my innate and adaptive immune systems,... a couple of genuine pals.


You had me until you added the highlighted comment. Can you elaborate?


----------



## MetalTele79

Where I work all staff were required to get vaccinated. While the numbers in the community have been rising again, the staff infections have remained very low. All sources are now from household exposures (a constant prolonged close contact that usually comes from an unvaccinated child or family memeber) or international travel. I have seen many people who have been infected more than once before vaccination became mandatory because we expect a natural immunity for about 90 days and after that all guarantees are off.


----------



## tdotrob

laristotle said:


> I find this parade of animosity towards the vaccine hesitant (unvaxxed! unclean! leper!) perplexing.
> Vaccine science (and the narrative) states that once vaxxed (twice, and a booster (then another booster down the road? then again, and again ..) they're protected, right?
> Why are they worried so much?
> The vaccine doesn't stop one from acquiring/transmitting covid. They're are just less prone from feeling the effects as badly.
> If anything, the hesitant are more afraid of the vaxxed because of the 'return to normal lifestyles' attitude that's being embraced, thereby continuing the spread.
> 
> IMO


People have young children who couldn’t get vaccinated or still can not.

We know a couple who's child got covid at school and has had some major issues and not to mention massive time off work for the parents and major loss of income.

Guess there is always more to consider than just a selfish and fearless return to normal life and just maybe people would be able to embrace a return to normal knowing their neighbours cared enough about their children as well.


----------



## zztomato

mhammer said:


> I enjoy watching Aljazeera news in the morning while getting dressed


Must be a short program. Don't you just wear coveralls all the time?  
I've liked Aljazeera every time I've stumbled upon them.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Got a phone call on Saturday morning from my wife's principal. Someone in her grade 2/3 class tested positive on Thursday. She had to go into the school on Monday to lead her class, who were all told to stay home, because she's double vaxxed but the kids are not. She was tested at 5:30 Sunday and came up negative at about 5 on Monday. Meanwhile I was in a grey area. I chose to play organ at the church on Saturday because there would be no-one near me, but didn't go out that evening where there might be closely-packed people. Monday I had a doctor's appointment about something completely else but they declined to see me and we wound up doing it by phone (pretty thin beer) at about 4:30. Seems there's some fuzziness when you're two steps away from an active case.


----------



## HighNoon

With these leaky vaccines being pushed on the public, herd immunity is now off the table. That being the case, all these restrictions, from passports to shifting arbitrary lockdowns, are foolish and nonsensical. We're all going to get it.


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## mhammer

Doug Gifford said:


> Got a phone call on Saturday morning from my wife's principal. Someone in her grade 2/3 class tested positive on Thursday. She had to go into the school on Monday to lead her class, who were all told to stay home, because she's double vaxxed but the kids are not. She was tested at 5:30 Sunday and came up negative at about 5 on Monday. Meanwhile I was in a grey area. I chose to play organ at the church on Saturday because there would be no-one near me, but didn't go out that evening where there might be closely-packed people. Monday I had a doctor's appointment about something completely else but they declined to see me and we wound up doing it by phone (pretty thin beer) at about 4:30. Seems there's some fuzziness when you're two steps away from an active case.


A very quick cursory read of that first sentence, and my first thought was "Okay, most men marry someone a_ little_ younger than themselves, so I'll cut Doug some slack. But Grade 2? Isn't that illegal?" Then I realized "Ohhhhhh, _now_ I get it, her 'principal' is like her work supervisor, and she_ teaches_ Grade 2/3."


----------



## Doug Gifford

mhammer said:


> A very quick cursory read of that first sentence, and my first thought was "Okay, most men marry someone a_ little_ younger than themselves, so I'll cut Doug some slack. But Grade 2? Isn't that illegal?"  Then I realized "Ohhhhhh, _now_ I get it, her 'principal' is like her work supervisor, and she_ teaches_ Grade 2/3."


Glad you got that worked out.


----------



## mhammer

I'm slow, but I catch up eventually.


----------



## laristotle

Eight billion shots: On the anniversary of the COVID vaccine, the virus is still with us


The vaccines have slashed hospitalizations and deaths in countries where they have been rolled out widely, but they haven't vanquished the virus




nationalpost.com




_Bruce Aylward, senior adviser to the WHO’s director-general, says more affluent countries should focus on helping lower-income nations that are struggling with a “toxic mix” of low vaccination levels, weak testing, fragile health systems and other factors. Otherwise, the virus will continue to have places to take hold and adapt.

“You are playing with fire” if you don’t keep pressure on the virus in all parts of the world, he said. “This virus will mutate, and if any of those mutations are favourable to transmission, they will emerge and they will dominate, and then you run into potential problems.”

But richer countries may be even more inclined to hoard shots now, given the recent surge in cases in Europe and elsewhere, and the fresh omicron threat._


----------



## Midnight Rider

Milkman said:


> I'm glad your immune system saved you.
> 
> Many others were not so lucky.
> 
> I'm not inclined to gamble with those cards.


I respect that,... to each his own.


----------



## Midnight Rider

HighNoon said:


> With these leaky vaccines being pushed on the public, herd immunity is now off the table. That being the case, all these restrictions, from passports to shifting arbitrary lockdowns, are foolish and nonsensical. We're all going to get it.


You are probably correct in your assumption. The positive outlook on that may be that virus may be showing signs of weakening in the ability to cause severe illness. This Omicron variant may be the first clue to this taking place as still there remains no reports of severe illness or death of those who have contracted it.

Eventually the effects may trickle down to what we expect when being infected with the seasonal flu.


----------



## colchar

laristotle said:


> Eight billion shots: On the anniversary of the COVID vaccine, the virus is still with us
> 
> 
> The vaccines have slashed hospitalizations and deaths in countries where they have been rolled out widely, but they haven't vanquished the virus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Bruce Aylward, senior adviser to the WHO’s director-general, says more affluent countries should focus on helping lower-income nations that are struggling with a “toxic mix” of low vaccination levels, weak testing, fragile health systems and other factors. Otherwise, the virus will continue to have places to take hold and adapt.
> 
> “You are playing with fire” if you don’t keep pressure on the virus in all parts of the world, he said. “This virus will mutate, and if any of those mutations are favourable to transmission, they will emerge and they will dominate, and then you run into potential problems.”
> 
> But richer countries may be even more inclined to hoard shots now, given the recent surge in cases in Europe and elsewhere, and the fresh omicron threat._



Playing the guilt and fear cards for rich countries when the reality is that vaccine hesitancy is the #1 reason for low vaccination rates in poor countries, and I believe that info originated with the WHO itself.


----------



## allthumbs56

Apparently a threesome may save your life.









BioNTech, Pfizer say vaccine neutralizes Omicron with three shots


BioNTech and Pfizer said on Wednesday a three-shot course of their COVID-19 vaccine was able to neutralize the new Omicron variant in a laboratory test and…




torontosun.com


----------



## Fred Gifford

just read a blurb where the average annual Canadian family grocery's cost to increase by $1,000 in 2022, sick of the virus yet ??


----------



## laristotle

Fred Gifford said:


> Canadian family grocery's cost to increase


Also home heating, fueling your vehicle, sundry items; toilet paper etc. clothing .. everything. 🤬
Oh .. CPP contributions and taxes too.


----------



## mhammer

Keep in mind that what we as consumers view as increased costs, are viewed by all the people along the way who provide the raw materials, and production, right on up to the person who stocks the shelves with those cans of creamed corn that cost a nickel more, as a needed increment to their pay or to the production costs of their employer.


----------



## Milkman

We hear a lot about vaccine hesitancy and anti-vaxers.

Interestingly enough, I have been turned away several times in my efforts to do what I perceive to be the right thing.

If we really want nto raise the ratio of vaccinated people why do they make it so freaking hard?

The government websites don't really allow for special consideratipons such as having had open hear surgery (pneumonia could be a death sentence for me).

I don't mind waiting my turn, but I saw three people turned away in line to receive boosters.

Unless there's a shortage in supply, that's ridiculous.


----------



## mhammer

You never know. They might have only had a previous shot a little too recently. Additionally, there is no assurance that the people staffing the door are recruited for their wisdom. Never confuse the reasoning and wisdom of a policy with that of the people selected to apply it.


----------



## Milkman

mhammer said:


> You never know. They might have only had a previous shot a little too recently. Additionally, there is no assurance that the people staffing the door are recruited for their wisdom. Never confuse the reasoning and wisdom of a policy with that of the people selected to apply it.


Well, they might have, but I didn't. I answered the questions on the health unit's website accurately and honestly and fell within the acceptable date range. Actually, I did try just before my recent trip to Nashville but it was ONE DAY too soon and there was no way to "discuss" it via the website.

So, I waited until my return even though it would have made a lot of sense to have the booster BEFORE my trip. I scheduled it for last week, showed up and was told I was too young.....

Damn near shit myself at that response.

Anyway, I have to wait to make the booster appointment until Dec 13.


----------



## FatStrat2

I hear a couple of Airlines are going to mandate masks between bites of food and sips of your beverage - and New Brunswick is thinking of banning all un-vaccinated from grocery shopping.


----------



## Doug Gifford

mhammer said:


> A very quick cursory read of that first sentence, and my first thought was "Okay, most men marry someone a_ little_ younger than themselves, so I'll cut Doug some slack. But Grade 2? Isn't that illegal?" Then I realized "Ohhhhhh, _now_ I get it, her 'principal' is like her work supervisor, and she_ teaches_ Grade 2/3."


My wife is fifteen years younger than I am. We married when I was 39 and she was 24, after she'd graduated from university. One of my aunts thought -- and told everyone -- that we were waiting for her to graduate from high school. …sheesh…


----------



## allthumbs56

FatStrat2 said:


> I hear a couple of Airlines are going to mandate masks between bites of food and sips of your beverage - and New Brunswick is thinking of banning all un-vaccinated from grocery shopping.


About time


----------



## Milkman

FatStrat2 said:


> I hear a couple of Airlines are going to mandate masks between bites of food and sips of your beverage - and New Brunswick is thinking of banning all un-vaccinated from grocery shopping.


I flew United and Air Canada last week.

Air Canada was much more careful about masks, stating that only for brief periods eating or drinking was it permitted to remove your mask. They even said that when conversing with flight attendants the masks must be worn.

I know this may not be a popular opinion, but I think if you're unwell enough that wearing a mask would be impossible, perhaps someone else should be doing your shopping for you.


----------



## FatStrat2

I didn't see any scrutiny when I flew twice last month (with 2 connecting flights mixed in). My nose was inadvertently poking out most of the time - everyone saw it, no one cared (at least enough to say anything).


----------



## allthumbs56

FatStrat2 said:


> I didn't see any scrutiny when I flew twice last month (with 2 connecting flights mixed in). *My nose was inadvertently poking out most of the time* - everyone saw it, no one cared (at least enough to say anything).


Inadvertently? If you weren't aware then how did you notice that others were?


----------



## Milkman

FatStrat2 said:


> I didn't see any scrutiny when I flew twice last month (with 2 connecting flights mixed in). My nose was inadvertently poking out most of the time - everyone saw it, no one cared (at least enough to say anything).


A lot changed since last month. Omicron was not really known. I suspect if I flew again this week it would be a new process again.


----------



## laristotle

Canadian-made, plant-based COVID-19 vaccine sees positive Phase 3 results


Quebec-based biopharmaceutical company Medicago and drug maker GlaxoSmithKline says they have achieved positive efficacy and safety results from their Phase 3 trial of their plant-based COVID-19 vaccine.




www.ctvnews.ca




_
D’Aoust said it only takes Medicago “days” to produce the vaccine from the moment they have the virus sequence in researchers’ hands.

“So for a new virus, for example, once we have the sequence, in 19 days, we've found that we can produce a research-grade VLP which is the structure of the vaccine that we're using…from there, we can continue with the development and that's what we did for the COVID-19 vaccine development early in 2020,” he explained.

 Medicago’s vaccine demonstrated 75.3 per cent efficacy against COVID-19 of any severity for the Delta variant, which D’Aoust said is the most widely circulated strain, and 88.6 per cent efficacy against the Gamma variant.

A small number of severe cases of COVID-19 were observed in the study, but none occurred in the vaccinated group, Medicago said in the release._


----------



## FatStrat2

allthumbs56 said:


> Inadvertently? If you weren't aware then how did you notice that others were?


I became aware as my nose tip cooled. Up goes the mask, then it inadvertently slips again.


----------



## laristotle

Just read this interesting bit on another forum.

_I think part of the problem is that the pandemic is an evolving situation. It is not cut and dried as "if you eat your meat, you will get pudding." In this situation, you might not get your pudding if you eat your meat. Most will eat their meat, perhaps some in good faith in hopes of getting pudding, some just to avoid the paddle. The trouble lies in the contingent that will not eat their meat because they see that others have and still didn't get all of the pudding as promised. Somehow, potential self-destruction with collateral damage has become an option of protest against even the threat of compromised pudding futures. To round out this unapplicable, nonsensical metaphor, I will posit that "freedom" is not the pudding or the meat. It is having a seat at the table._


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## allthumbs56

FatStrat2 said:


> I became aware as my nose tip cooled. Up goes the mask, then it inadvertently slips again.


You need a bigger nose 😎


----------



## mhammer

laristotle said:


> Canadian-made, plant-based COVID-19 vaccine sees positive Phase 3 results
> 
> 
> Quebec-based biopharmaceutical company Medicago and drug maker GlaxoSmithKline says they have achieved positive efficacy and safety results from their Phase 3 trial of their plant-based COVID-19 vaccine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ D’Aoust said it only takes Medicago “days” to produce the vaccine from the moment they have the virus sequence in researchers’ hands.
> 
> “So for a new virus, for example, once we have the sequence, in 19 days, we've found that we can produce a research-grade VLP which is the structure of the vaccine that we're using…from there, we can continue with the development and that's what we did for the COVID-19 vaccine development early in 2020,” he explained.
> 
> Medicago’s vaccine demonstrated 75.3 per cent efficacy against COVID-19 of any severity for the Delta variant, which D’Aoust said is the most widely circulated strain, and 88.6 per cent efficacy against the Gamma variant.
> 
> A small number of severe cases of COVID-19 were observed in the study, but none occurred in the vaccinated group, Medicago said in the release._


One thing I have not heard is whether it is a GMO product. My guess is that you don't get proteins that specific just by chance and by combing through thousands of plants to find just the right one. Doesn't matter to me one way or the other, but I imagine there are some for whom this would be a sticking point. On the other hand, if a segment of the unvaccinated populace are persuaded by the A&W line ("plant-based"), so much the better.


----------



## Paul Running

Your next vaccine could be grown in a tobacco plant


Long-awaited plant-based vaccine technology could help COVID-19 shots reach developing countries.




www.nationalgeographic.com


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## Paul Running




----------



## Paul Running




----------



## Midnight Rider

FatStrat2 said:


> - and New Brunswick is thinking of banning all un-vaccinated from grocery shopping.


No jab, no food: New Brunswick grocery stores can now ban unvaccinated shoppers
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-...wick-winter-plan-christmas-shephard-1.6272151
The Health Minister Dorothy Shephard and Chief Medical Officer of Health Dr. Jennifer Russell made a comment stating that they would give permission to grocery stores to not allow anyone to shop for food without a vaccine passport if they chose to do so. It is not included in the New Brunswick Winter Action Plan for COVID-19 so it appears the NB provincial government wants someone else to do their dirty work for them.

The good news is Mother Nature's grocery store is open 24/7,... so kindly go fuck yourselves.

I wonder if Priemier Blaine Higgs, Dorothy Shepard and Dr. Jennifer Russell start their days by doing the 'Goose Step' when they jump out of bed each day.

One sure way to initiate public unrest and potential violence is to purposely set out to starve a facet of the population.
Fucking idiots,... what's next, special camps?

When will these Jack Wagons stop doing the 'Chicken Little' dance each day while setting their hair on fire and clawing at their faces while screaming at the sky in dissonant epidemic hysteria. 









A warning letter was sent to the New Brunswick Minister of Justice by the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms.
New Brunswick’s “Winter Covid-Plan” targets religious services and invites grocery stores to refuse service to the vaccine-free | Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms
*New Brunswick’s “Winter Covid-Plan” targets religious services and invites grocery stores to refuse service to the vaccine-free*
POSTED ON: DECEMBER 7, 2021
*CALGARY:* The Justice Centre sent the New Brunswick Minister of Justice today a warning letter in relation to the most recent Covid-19 Order dated December 4, 2021.
The Order discriminates against people of all faith who attend funerals, weddings, and social gatherings by requiring the owners and occupiers to ensure occupants are fully vaccinated, while non-faith gatherings have no such requirement.
The Order states, in part:

“In every church and other faith venue, paragraph 2 does not apply, but the owners, occupiers and managers are required to take every reasonable step *to ensure at every indoor faith gathering that every person in the venue is fully vaccinated against COVID-19.”*
“This is an unconscionable violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and it has no scientific or legal justification.” states Andre Memauri, staff lawyer at the Justice Centre. “Vaccine-free New Brunswickers who are grieving the loss of a family member cannot attend a funeral but are permitted into a pool hall with a negative test”.
The Order also goes on to implicitly invite private sector grocery stores to freely choose vaccination requirements for entry. The right to food is a fundamental Human Right enshrined in various international instruments including Article 25 of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article 11 of the International Covenant on Economic Social and Cultural Rights amongst other Human Rights instruments.
“An invitation to the private sector to consider such egregious discriminatory practices triggers historic Charter violations” says Mr. Memauri. “Potentially depriving citizens of food constitutes an act of cruelty. It is discriminatory, unconstitutional, and likely an offence under international law. No one should be barred from the ability to purchase food to feed their family,” says Mr. Memauri.
“Canada is better than this.”

Good to know someone out there is fighting for sanity.


----------



## Kenmac

An interesting conversation from the Late Show with Dr. David Agus. Some potentially good news in part three:


----------



## Choo5440

Midnight Rider said:


> No jab, no food: New Brunswick grocery stores can now ban unvaccinated shoppers
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-...wick-winter-plan-christmas-shephard-1.6272151
> The Health Minister Dorothy Shephard and Chief Medical Officer of Health Dr. Jennifer Russell made a comment stating that they would give permission to grocery stores to not allow anyone to shop for food without a vaccine passport if they chose to do so. It is not included in the New Brunswick Winter Action Plan for COVID-19 so it appears the NB provincial government wants someone else to do their dirty work for them.
> 
> The good news is Mother Nature's grocery store is open 24/7,... so kindly go fuck yourselves.
> 
> I wonder if Priemier Blaine Higgs, Dorothy Shepard and Dr. Jennifer Russell start their days by doing the 'Goose Step' when they jump out of bed each day.
> 
> One sure way to initiate public unrest and potential violence is to purposely set out to starve a facet of the population.
> Fucking idiots,... what's next, special camps?
> 
> When will these Jack Wagons stop doing the 'Chicken Little' dance each day while setting their hair on fire and clawing at their faces while screaming at the sky in dissonant epidemic hysteria.
> View attachment 392038
> 
> 
> A warning letter was sent to the New Brunswick Minister of Justice by the Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms.
> New Brunswick’s “Winter Covid-Plan” targets religious services and invites grocery stores to refuse service to the vaccine-free | Justice Centre for Constitutional Freedoms
> *New Brunswick’s “Winter Covid-Plan” targets religious services and invites grocery stores to refuse service to the vaccine-free*
> POSTED ON: DECEMBER 7, 2021
> *CALGARY:* The Justice Centre sent the New Brunswick Minister of Justice today a warning letter in relation to the most recent Covid-19 Order dated December 4, 2021.
> The Order discriminates against people of all faith who attend funerals, weddings, and social gatherings by requiring the owners and occupiers to ensure occupants are fully vaccinated, while non-faith gatherings have no such requirement.
> The Order states, in part:
> 
> “In every church and other faith venue, paragraph 2 does not apply, but the owners, occupiers and managers are required to take every reasonable step *to ensure at every indoor faith gathering that every person in the venue is fully vaccinated against COVID-19.”*
> “This is an unconscionable violation of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and it has no scientific or legal justification.” states Andre Memauri, staff lawyer at the Justice Centre. “Vaccine-free New Brunswickers who are grieving the loss of a family member cannot attend a funeral but are permitted into a pool hall with a negative test”.
> The Order also goes on to implicitly invite private sector grocery stores to freely choose vaccination requirements for entry. The right to food is a fundamental Human Right enshrined in various international instruments including Article 25 of The Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article 11 of the International Covenant on Economic Social and Cultural Rights amongst other Human Rights instruments.
> “An invitation to the private sector to consider such egregious discriminatory practices triggers historic Charter violations” says Mr. Memauri. “Potentially depriving citizens of food constitutes an act of cruelty. It is discriminatory, unconstitutional, and likely an offence under international law. No one should be barred from the ability to purchase food to feed their family,” says Mr. Memauri.
> “Canada is better than this.”
> 
> Good to know someone out there is fighting for sanity.


??? the story is about retailers having the choice of either enforcing strict social distancing protocols, or going with vaccine passports for shoppers. The law isn't to encourage the use of passports, but to ensure any large shops (ie, supermarkets) plan for customer and public safety.


----------



## Mikev7305

Choo5440 said:


> The law isn't to encourage the use of passports, but to ensure any large shops (ie, supermarkets) plan for customer and public safety.


Yeah yeah it's all for the public's safety of course. So our options are either 1... Enforce social distancing by leaving the arrows in the aisles that we installed a year ago and keeping capacity limits so nobody has to ever be anywhere near another human again. We already have this system in place right? It could work... Or 2... Scrap the arrows and capacity limits, let's just let all the compliant folk in to freely roam at their heart's content so that the people the news told us to hate can starve instead. 

Tyranny is a slippery slope my friends and we've got some fuckin slick loafers on.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Choo5440 said:


> ??? the story is about retailers having the choice of either enforcing strict social distancing protocols, or going with vaccine passports for shoppers. The law isn't to encourage the use of passports, but to ensure any large shops (ie, supermarkets) plan for customer and public safety.


Please tell me you're a Canuck who's kidding.
Here's a little dose of reality,... the Covid Camps of Australia. Don't think for a minute it couldn't happen here,... especially with the idiot we currently have running our Country.
Howard Springs,... coming to a neighbourhood near you.


----------



## Milkman

Mikev7305 said:


> Yeah yeah it's all for the public's safety of course. So our options are either 1... Enforce social distancing by leaving the arrows in the aisles that we installed a year ago and keeping capacity limits so nobody has to ever be anywhere near another human again. We already have this system in place right? It could work... Or 2... Scrap the arrows and capacity limits, let's just let all the compliant folk in to freely roam at their heart's content so that the people the news told us to hate can starve instead.
> 
> Tyranny is a slippery slope my friends and we've got some fuckin slick loafers on.



Why is this so different than other vaccinations we all get and nobody thinks twice about?

Nobody hates the unvaccinated. We're confused by why they're so resistant to something developed to help society and them in the process, and I really don't think it's their right to expose ME or my family to the virus because of some paranoid delusion or conspiracy theory.


You don't want to get vaccinated or wear a mask? That's your right. It's my right to not be put at risk because of your personal opinions or beliefs.

I think things should have been much more restricted much sooner. This didn't need to last this long.

The whole "don't push me around", "don't tread on my rights and freedoms" mantra got old a long time ago.


----------



## FatStrat2

For better or worse, eventually this natural (or artificial) culling will end - like any war or pandemic does.



Midnight Rider said:


> ,... especially with the idiot we currently have running our Country....


IMO, none of these leaders here or abroad are idiots or crazies or nuts or stupid. I maintain they know exactly what they're doing - and they're doing it.


----------



## Paul Running

Milkman said:


> Why is this so different than other vaccinations we all get and nobody thinks twice about?


It is puzzling when you compare it to the Flu vaccine. How many people care if you take the Flu shot?


FatStrat2 said:


> For better or worse, eventually this natural (or artificial) culling will end - like any war or pandemic does.


We may never know an accurate length of time. The Flu pandemic of 1918 is an example. Some report it as lasting 2 years with 3 waves and others report 3 years with 4 waves. Recently, I heard a historian on CBC Radio mention 4 years.


----------



## Milkman

Paul Running said:


> It is puzzling when you compare it to the Flu vaccine. How many people care if you take the Flu shot?
> 
> We may never know an accurate length of time. The Flu pandemic of 1918 is an example. Some report it as lasting 2 years with 3 waves and others report 3 years with 4 waves. Recently, I heard a historian on CBC Radio mention 4 years.


How about comparing it to Polio, mumps, measels, rubella instead?

I take my flu shot. I don't worry as much about whether anyone else does, and you may note that the flu shot is NOT mandatory.


----------



## mhammer

Paul Running said:


> We may never know an accurate length of time. The Flu pandemic of 1918 is an example. Some report it as lasting 2 years with 3 waves and others report 3 years with 4 waves. Recently, I heard a historian on CBC Radio mention 4 years.


Insomuch as it took place a century ago when considerably fewer people were driving and flying all over for work, fun or visiting relatives, the brunt of what made it into a pandemic was the movement of troops from many corners of the world to Europe, and than back home again. I don't know a great deal about it, but I would imagine that there were many corners of the globe unaffected by it, simply because the residents didn't travel, Europeans didn't travel there, and thatnation had sent no troops to the European front.

It WAS a pandemic, insomuch as it was not highly localized enough to merely be an outbreak. But what we have experienced since late 2019 has pretty much affected the entire world. 

That said, one can imagine that, as relatively insulated from each other as many countries were 100 years ago, the number of "waves" would vary by region, with some tamping down the outbreak more effectively than others.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Simply put, the government has a mandate to protect the citizens. They do this by enacting laws. Drive bad, that act gets restricted. Steal things or hurt people, you get confined to a small space with bars on the windows. Don't get childhood vaccines, you're not allowed into schools. Now, don't get the Covid vaccine, you will find your activities restricted, same as with many other issues. Be stubborn all you want for whatever reason you want. If you make a decision you live with the consequences of that choice. Don't bitch and moan about something you have complete control over to change.


----------



## Mikev7305

Jim DaddyO said:


> Don't get childhood vaccines, you're not allowed into schools


Incorrect. I know people where the kids do not have all their vaccinations and they still go to school. A couple forms to sign and it's done. And never again will they be asked for their status with those vaccines. The covid shot and all the others are so so different. Never has somebody's livelihood been at stake. 



Milkman said:


> The whole "don't push me around", "don't tread on my rights and freedoms" mantra got old a long time ago.


It's an oldie but a goodie. That damn charter keeps getting in the way of a total autocratic society. Remember that document is in place to protect the people from government overreach. It's in place for a reason


----------



## Milkman

Mikev7305 said:


> Incorrect. I know people where the kids do not have all their vaccinations and they still go to school. A couple forms to sign and it's done. And never again will they be asked for their status with those vaccines. The covid shot and all the others are so so different. Never has somebody's livelihood been at stake.
> 
> 
> It's an oldie but a goodie. That damn charter keeps getting in the way of a total autocratic society. Remember that document is in place to protect the people from government overreach. It's in place for a reason


Maybe, but I don't think the reason was to make others sick.

Frankly I think anyone who declines basic vaccinations for their kids should not be allowed to send them to public schools.


----------



## allthumbs56

Mikev7305 said:


> It's an oldie but a goodie. That damn charter keeps getting in the way of a total autocratic society. Remember that document is in place to protect the people from government overreach. It's in place for a reason


90+% of the (eligible) population has gotten their jab. Probably less than half of us like or trust the government. We're just grown-ups using common sense and doing what needs to be done.


----------



## FatStrat2

We had our first work X-mas lunch together in about 2 years yesterday. Over a dozen people crammed into a room about the size of my master bedroom. We'll know our fate in 2 weeks, I guess.

But frankly, I didn't miss this 'togetherness' one bit, I can do without it indefinitely (including our weekly in-person staff meetings).


----------



## mhammer

Mikev7305 said:


> It's an oldie but a goodie. That damn charter keeps getting in the way of a total autocratic society. Remember that document is in place to protect the people from government overreach. It's in place for a reason


Absolutely. But the challenge is what people construe as their "rights". Yes, you have assured autonomy over your own body, but you have no dominion over MY health or that of my children, or over that of their teachers. Those "damn charters" are not only there to secure the rights of individuals, but the rights that constitute a functioning nation (why it's generally referred to as a "constitution"), and protect the collective. Otherwise there is no point in being or having a nation. Political power* is* sometimes wielded under the banner of protecting the collective when it is really protecting individual power or that of specific groups. And in that context, we are glad that a charter/constitution stipulates individual rights as well, to protect against overreach. But for some folks, they view such documents as being almost entirely about their individual freedoms, and only incidentally about those of others (if at all).

The goal is balance between the collective and individual.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> Absolutely. But the challenge is what people construe as their "rights". Yes, you have assured autonomy over your own body, but you have no dominion over MY health or that of my children, or over that of their teachers. Those "damn charters" are not only there to secure the rights of individuals, but the rights that constitute a functioning nation (why it's generally referred to as a "constitution"), and protect the collective. Otherwise there is no point in being or having a nation. Political power* is* sometimes wielded under the banner of protecting the collective when it is really protecting individual power or that of specific groups. And in that context, we are glad that a charter/constitution stipulates individual rights as well, to protect against overreach. But for some folks, they view such documents as being almost entirely about their individual freedoms, and only incidentally about those of others (if at all).
> 
> The goal is balance between the collective and individual.


----------



## colchar

Mikev7305 said:


> Yeah yeah it's all for the public's safety of course. So our options are either 1... Enforce social distancing by leaving the arrows in the aisles that we installed a year ago and keeping capacity limits so nobody has to ever be anywhere near another human again. We already have this system in place right? It could work... Or 2... Scrap the arrows and capacity limits, let's just let all the compliant folk in to freely roam at their heart's content so that the people the news told us to hate can starve instead.
> 
> Tyranny is a slippery slope my friends and we've got some fuckin slick loafers on.



Tyranny? Good grief.

And by the way, slippery slope arguments are logical fallacies and are therefore invalid.


----------



## Paul Running

Paul Running said:


> No, ours is still a pup, a blue...she has a serious look most of the time however, one of these days she'll show her lighter side...she's comical to watch at times.


Still can't get her to smile, she's bigger than Camry now and likes to play rough


----------



## laristotle

Investigation after German doctor administers 20,000 home-made Covid ‘vaccines’


Winfried Stöcker says he developed his vaccine in less than 30 minutes




www.independent.co.uk


----------



## mhammer

Thirty minutes? That ought to persuade the folks who won't get a shot because 6-8 months to develop a vaccine seems too unrealistically fast for them.

Did he develop this in conjunction with Domino's Pizza? Your virus, prevented in 30 minutes or less, or else it's free.


----------



## GuitarT

mhammer said:


> Thirty minutes? That ought to persuade the folks who won't get a shot because 6-8 months to develop a vaccine seems too unrealistically fast for them.
> 
> Did he develop this in conjunction with Domino's Pizza? Your virus, prevented in 30 minutes or less, or else it's free.


Comes with three free toppings. 😉


----------



## Midnight Rider

Milkman said:


> Why is this so different than other vaccinations we all get and nobody thinks twice about?
> 
> Nobody hates the unvaccinated. We're confused by why they're so resistant to something developed to help society and them in the process, and I really don't think it's their right to expose ME or my family to the virus because of some paranoid delusion or conspiracy theory.
> 
> 
> You don't want to get vaccinated or wear a mask? That's your right. It's my right to not be put at risk because of your personal opinions or beliefs.
> 
> I think things should have been much more restricted much sooner. This didn't need to last this long.
> 
> The whole "don't push me around", "don't tread on my rights and freedoms" mantra got old a long time ago.





laristotle said:


> Investigation after German doctor administers 20,000 home-made Covid ‘vaccines’
> 
> 
> Winfried Stöcker says he developed his vaccine in less than 30 minutes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.independent.co.uk


Not that I would take it, but,... none of the 20,000 who did take it died,... unlike the some who had been injected with the approved vaccinations,... just say'n.


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## 2manyGuitars

mhammer said:


> Absolutely. But the challenge is what people construe as their "rights". Yes, you have assured autonomy over your own body, but you have no dominion over MY health or that of my children, or over that of their teachers. Those "damn charters" are not only there to secure the rights of individuals, but the rights that constitute a functioning nation (why it's generally referred to as a "constitution"), and protect the collective. Otherwise there is no point in being or having a nation. Political power* is* sometimes wielded under the banner of protecting the collective when it is really protecting individual power or that of specific groups. And in that context, we are glad that a charter/constitution stipulates individual rights as well, to protect against overreach. But for some folks, they view such documents as being almost entirely about their individual freedoms, and only incidentally about those of others (if at all).
> 
> The goal is balance between the collective and individual.


There are countless people posting videos where they go into a store, maskless, for the express purpose of having a confrontation. They spew completely false legal “facts” and constantly talk about their constitutional rights.

The funny thing is, these same people will literally take up arms to defend the right of a business to refuse to make a “gay wedding cake”. “How dare you tell a private business what they can and can’t do!” Well, this private business has decided that if you want to enter their store, you need to be wearing a mask.

I don’t recall seeing a passage in either the Canadian or US constitution that guarantees my right to shop.


----------



## colchar

2manyGuitars said:


> There are countless people posting videos where they go into a store, maskless, for the express purpose of having a confrontation. They spew completely false legal “facts” and constantly talk about their constitutional rights.
> 
> The funny thing is, these same people will literally take up arms to defend the right of a business to refuse to make a “gay wedding cake”. “How dare you tell a private business what they can and can’t do!” Well, this private business has decided that if you want to enter their store, you need to be wearing a mask.



Yeah their hypocrisy would be laughable if it weren't so pathetic, and they're just too ignorant to grasp it.


----------



## davetcan

Hospital cancels surgeries as 25 doctors, staff isolate due to COVID


A staff case of COVID-19 has delayed surgeries in four operating rooms at St. Joseph’s Health Care, the hospital said Friday evening.




lfpress.com





Just another reason why we should do everything we can to try and stop the spread.


----------



## keto

davetcan said:


> Hospital cancels surgeries as 25 doctors, staff isolate due to COVID
> 
> 
> A staff case of COVID-19 has delayed surgeries in four operating rooms at St. Joseph’s Health Care, the hospital said Friday evening.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lfpress.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just another reason why we should do everything we can to try and stop the spread.


Yeah, the number quoted for AB was 3,000 surgeries/mo on average cancelled during the pandemic. It's disgusting.


----------



## laristotle

Toronto Police Service dealing with COVID-19 outbreaks among vaccinated cops


First Toronto Fire Services stations were hit with COVID-19 amongst vaccinated staff, now Toronto Police has been stung.




torontosun.com




_“We will continue to take the necessary steps to ensure our members are safe and our service to the public is not compromised,” Osborne said.

Some unvaccinated officers on unpaid leave have raised the question about the possibility of rapid testing to allow all members to work as long as they can show they are COVID free.

“If the vaccinated are being infected, why not let us work?” asked one officer._


----------



## 2manyGuitars

laristotle said:


> _“If the vaccinated are being infected, why not let us work?” asked one officer._


Let’s say there are officers in a high risk unit. Last year, 10 of them were shot, 6 of those wound up in the hospital, one died.

The other officers on leave for refusing to wear body armour and tactical gear...
“If other officers are getting shot, why can’t we show up for work naked?”


----------



## bolero

I hope the virus doesn't mutate into something even crazier, now that it's been found in 40% of the deer population they tested in New York, Pennsylvania, and Michigan. Which means it's probably everywhere.


----------



## Wardo

Yeah,I am not optimistic about any of this.

Although maybe like the climate they will be able to control covid with some kind of a tax; that’ll work real good.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

This one sums it up pretty good...


----------



## bolero

https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/covid-white-tailed-deer-quebec-1.6269947



While the article emphasis is on the fact the deer appeared to be ok, the virus is notorious for mutating. Who knows where else it is, and what happens as it moves through the food chain & other animals.

Remember the mink farms they killed off, early on when it was detected there? So it's been jumping species for a while.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## zztomato

I hear that the next mutation will wipe out everyone except triple vaxed old men and young healthy super-model women so things are looking up for the GC membership.


----------



## Wardo

zztomato said:


> I here that the next mutation will wipe out everyone except triple vaxed old men and young healthy super-model women so things are looking up for the GC membership.


Thanks, I now have a reason to go on living and also to buy that National resonator that I've been thinking about ... lol


----------



## 2manyGuitars

zztomato said:


> I hear that the next mutation will wipe out everyone except triple vaxed old men and young healthy super-model women so things are looking up for the GC membership.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

zztomato said:


> I hear that the next mutation will wipe out everyone except triple vaxed old men and young healthy super-model women so things are looking up for the GC membership.


I forget, what do you do with them again? I think those super-model women will be safe, if not slightly frustrated at times, other times bored.


----------



## FatStrat2

colchar said:


> ...Fucking Chinese, we have them to thank for this.


Yup. They've done it a few times in the past anyway (SARS, Bird Flu, etc.). We'll just ride it out, we'll survive (most of us).


----------



## allthumbs56

2manyGuitars said:


> View attachment 392509


They say it's learning to not kill it's host. Is there a lesson for Mankind in there?


----------



## colchar

laristotle said:


>


He's becoming a real twat.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

It seems much of the media is relaying a terrifying message surrounding the omicron variant, while scientific and medical observations that are still ongoing are painting a slightly different picture. One death (so far) from omicron, less symptoms, less deadly but more transmissible is what I am getting from science and medicine. Media seems to need sensationalism and are predicting the end of the world almost.

We don't have this beat, maybe never will, and it is suseptable to mutating again. At this point the same procedures seems to be the most reasonable we have. Vax, mask, clean, limit exposure. We will likely, it seems, all be exposed to it, let's be optimistic that omicron is what science seems to be observing and reporting and not what some media is predicting while seemingly ignoring the science.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> It seems much of the media is relaying a terrifying message surrounding the omicron variant, while scientific and medical observations that are still ongoing are painting a slightly different picture. One death (so far) from omicron, less symptoms, less deadly but more transmissible is what I am getting from science and medicine. Media seems to need sensationalism and are predicting the end of the world almost.
> 
> We don't have this beat, maybe never will, and it is suseptable to mutating again. At this point the same procedures seems to be the most reasonable we have. Vax, mask, clean, limit exposure. We will likely, it seems, all be exposed to it, let's be optimistic that omicron is what science seems to be observing and reporting and not what some media is predicting while seemingly ignoring the science.


I read a UK article this morning that they've brought in the military to help with the boosters. Early indications are that Omicron is 4 times more transmissible than Delta and Ontario will see a doubling of cases every three days. Between doing the 5 - 11's and boosters for all I think we're going to need to employ more than just the pharmacies as well.

I can see my March trip to Cuba flying away now 😢


----------



## Milkman

I and my wife now have appointments for Dec 20 (Monday) to get our boosters.

This shit is getting old, but I'm under no illusion that we have it beaten.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

No boosters here yet, but if they go by the recommended 6 month spacing we won't be due until February.

I occasionally hear a longer spaced interval is better. I sometimes hear that it's not as efficacy wanes over time. Our local health team seems to be handling it pretty well though.


----------



## mhammer

Well, THIS is interesting.
Just got a call from our son that someone at a social function he attended on Saturday has tested positive. He was over to our house a big part of Sunday. He's generally pretty attentive about prevention and safety procedures, so I doubt he was maskless at the Saturday event. But until he gets tested today and confirms he's clean, we're self-isolating. A pity because I was supposed to attend a Red Cross First Aid course this evening.


----------



## zztomato

Friends of ours hosted a work type party for around 50 people. 2 tested positive and now all who attended are in isolation until tested. 
A neighbor of mine is a doc at CHEO. She thinks people who are getting together like this are not understanding the reality of the current situation. We can't have a situation again where it spreads uncontrollably into more vulnerable populations.
I have tickets to a show this weekend that we're not going to use. It's looking like we'll have a winter much like last year's.


----------



## mhammer

Followup: He's been advised that he's best to wait until Friday to avoid false negatives, so we're pretty much housebound until he gets test results this weekend. Cancelled my Red Cross training, and rescheduled an eye doctor appointment I originally had for this Thursday to next week. I do, however, have a slot to get my winter tires put on this Thursday. Given that it's a Canadian Tire, remaining masked, and being in a large space with decent ventilation should be okay. Equally important, I probably have greater risk of sliding into a ditch or other car with my current tires, than I have of being infected, so I'm disinclined to cancel; it took long enough to get this slot.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Milkman said:


> I and my wife now have appointments for Dec 20 (Monday) to get our boosters.
> 
> This shit is getting old, but I'm under no illusion that we have it beaten.


Going Thursday morning for mine. Was at my mom’s a couple hours ago and booked her booster for Friday.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Encouraging news,... as of December 13, 2021 there has only been one confirmed death worldwide due to the Omicron variant which occurred in Britain. However, there does not seem to be any detailed information available as to the age or sex of the deceased and if the individual was suffering from any pre-existing health conditions or co-morbidities.

Without this additional information it is difficult determine whether the deceased expired _*from* _Omicron or _*with*_ the Omicron variant.

The question remains,... why is the detailed medical information never released along with the reporting of Covid deaths? Surely this data has been recorded around the world by each individual countries health care organizations,... and if somehow it is not it would appear we have serious issues with the people in charge.

To even have to ask these questions is somewhat disturbing.


----------



## mhammer

Midnight Rider said:


> To even have to ask these questions is somewhat disturbing.


No it's not. The people tending to this have better and more important things to do than cater to our impatient need to know everything all the time right away. They are also professionals who prefer to be conclusive in their conclusions. I can wait.

And in other news, my wife got us appointments for shot #3 for next Thursday.


----------



## allthumbs56

Got my flu shot yesterday. 1st time I've ever had a reaction - bad case of chills, sore stomach, and very tired. Pfizer #3 scheduled for Jan 12. Hopefully no reaction - just like 1st two.


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> Got my flu shot yesterday. 1st time I've ever had a reaction - bad case of chills, sore stomach, and very tired. Pfizer #3 scheduled for Jan 12. Hopefully no reaction - just like 1st two.



You had a reaction because the microchip in the flu vaccine reacted with the microchip in the Covid vaccine. They were programmed that way. It was supposed to happen.


----------



## FatStrat2

Someone I don't know or never saw before at the checkout line in front of me yesterday told me the COVID pandemic is over, so I'm going with that.


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> You had a reaction because the microchip in the flu vaccine reacted with the microchip in the Covid vaccine. They were programmed that way. It was supposed to happen.


The trick is to get the flu vaccine in *one* arm and the Covid shot in the *other*. That way the microchips don't bump into each other. I'm not sure which arm is optimal for which shot, just that they need to be_ different _arms.


----------



## laristotle

Ruh roh!

Australian Prime Minister Has Freudian Slip, Compares Vaxed People to Sheep


----------



## mhammer

Those Aussies; always trying to stick it to New Zealanders.

Mind you, just imagine what the late Mel Lastman would have said, were he still Mayor: "Who wants Covid? NoooooooooBODY!!!"


----------



## Wardo

All the different vaccines are designed so that they will come together in one great purpose following which the beast will begin its slouching march toward Bethlehem to be born.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> The trick is to get the flu vaccine in *one* arm and the Covid shot in the *other*. That way the microchips don't bump into each other. I'm not sure which arm is optimal for which shot, just that they need to be_ different _arms.


So they're kinda like digital pedals that can't be using the same power source or their clocks get all screwy?


----------



## allthumbs56

A million cases a day in the UK by the end of the month. Guess having my booster scheduled for mid-January isn't gonna be so helpful.


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> So they're kinda like digital pedals that can't be using the same power source or their clocks get all screwy?


*Exactly*. You're catching on, Chris.


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> A million cases a day in the UK by the end of the month. Guess having my booster scheduled for mid-January isn't gonna be so helpful.


So should I reconsider my trip over there?


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## davetcan

colchar said:


> So should I reconsider my trip over there?


It pains me but we're not going anywhere until the dust settles. Booked for the booster on the 23rd. Looks like the Pfizer pills are getting great results in the test phase.


----------



## player99

Remember when the vaccines first came out the best one was thought to be the Pfizer vaccine? Now the joke's on me as it isn't very effective against omacron according to what I heard on the radio. The 2 shots are apparently only 30% effective.


----------



## Paul Running

It is quite possible that covid could go the route of the common cold and become resistant to vaccines.


----------



## allthumbs56

Paul Running said:


> It is quite possible that covid could go the route of the common cold and become resistant to vaccines.


Yup - it's gonna have to find a way to get along and play nicer if it wants to survive and make friends 👍


----------



## mhammer

player99 said:


> Remember when the vaccines first came out the best one was thought to be the Pfizer vaccine? Now the joke's on me as it isn't very effective against omacron according to what I heard on the radio. The 2 shots are apparently only 30% effective.


There's effective against actually getting infected, and effective against getting really sick if one gets infected. The latter shows good results against Omicron.

Important to note that estimates of "effectiveness" are always against a moving target. They are derived from blind studies in natural environments, rather than true experiments, and compare the likelihood of someone getting infected or getting very sick, with and without the vaccine, as they go about living their life. The individual participants will vary in the protective measures they take, but the assumption is that if the trial has enough participants, there won't be any consistent difference in protective measures taken, and since no one knows if they've received the vaccine or placebo, outcomes can be attributable to the vaccine. However, outcomes are always a reflection of the infection rate within the community. If the infection rate is high, then everyone is at risk, and the difference between treated and untreated volunteers in spontaneously contracting the virus may be reduced. That's why I say it's a moving target, since more and more people are infected in the population (which of course is why we WANT vaccines). That doesn't mean one should dismiss estimates outright, but there's no point in making a big deal of 10 or 20% differences between this and that The important thing is that one is less likely to get infected, get really sick if you do get infected, or die, and by an amount that makes it worth one's while to get a poke.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

allthumbs56 said:


> So they're kinda like digital pedals that can't be using the same power source or their clocks get all screwy?


As long as they install a ground lift in case I get a buzz.


----------



## player99

mhammer said:


> There's effective against actually getting infected, and effective against getting really sick if one gets infected. The latter shows good results against Omicron.
> 
> Important to note that estimates of "effectiveness" are always against a moving target. They are derived from blind studies in natural environments, rather than true experiments, and compare the likelihood of someone getting infected or getting very sick, with and without the vaccine, as they go about living their life. The individual participants will vary in the protective measures they take, but the assumption is that if the trial has enough participants, there won't be any consistent difference in protective measures taken, and since no one knows if they've received the vaccine or placebo, outcomes can be attributable to the vaccine. However, outcomes are always a reflection of the infection rate within the community. If the infection rate is high, then everyone is at risk, and the difference between treated and untreated volunteers in spontaneously contracting the virus may be reduced. That's why I say it's a moving target, since more and more people are infected in the population (which of course is why we WANT vaccines). That doesn't mean one should dismiss estimates outright, but there's no point in making a big deal of 10 or 20% differences between this and that The important thing is that one is less likely to get infected, get really sick if you do get infected, or die, and by an amount that makes it worth one's while to get a poke.


I get it . When Pfizer came out the covid rates were lower than when the others where tested so Pfizer seemed to be the best. But it really wasn't. Just covid infections where way lower so they were 95% effective and the other ones like Moderna were at 75%.


----------



## tomee2

We'll know more about omicron and vaccines in a month, after they can study who got hospitalized then died with and without which ever vaccine. I think the 1st documented death from omicron in the uk happened this week.


----------



## FatStrat2

Someone said up until last week, Alec Baldwin killed more people than Omicron.


----------



## Doug Gifford

I'm sitting in on a christmas show on Saturday. No pay, just companionship, and I'm starting to wonder about backing out. Gananoque is about twenty minutes east of Kingston and they're climbing the charts bigtime. I'll likely have a booster real soon (bandmate has connections) but not in time for this weekend. A video gig on Monday is already postponed and I'm wondering if the RC church will be closed on Christmas morning when I should be playing organ. I'd be safe enough 'way up in the organ loft but the congregation might not be. And no, I don't think God will spare them because they're at church.


----------



## Midnight Rider

player99 said:


> Remember when the vaccines first came out the best one was thought to be the Pfizer vaccine? Now the joke's on me as it isn't very effective against omacron according to what I heard on the radio. The 2 shots are apparently only 30% effective.


On a good day.


----------



## Midnight Rider

mhammer said:


> No it's not. The people tending to this have better and more important things to do than cater to our impatient need to know everything all the time right away. They are also professionals who prefer to be conclusive in their conclusions. I can wait.
> 
> And in other news, my wife got us appointments for shot #3 for next Thursday.


Impatient needs,...lol. It's been damn near two years since this ship has sailed. So, it takes these so called professionals two years to study the data on a patients age, sex, pre-existing health conditions and co-morbidities to be conclusive in their conclusions?









If I didn't know any better I would venture a guess that perhaps you may have at one time been employed by some government agency,... 

Also, because I'm a nice guy I will gift you and your lovely wife my vaccine allocation which will put you at the front of the line for #4. Merry Christmas,... you're welcome.


----------



## Midnight Rider

2manyGuitars said:


> View attachment 392509


Well, whomever is putting these up for sale will make a killing just on this thread alone. But,... shouldn't the colour scheme be black cloth with red stitching?

Don't forget to stock up for the kiddies stocking stuffers!,...🤶,💉


----------



## 2manyGuitars

“Why isn’t X, Y, and Z working?”
Well, because there’s a significant enough percentage of the population that doesn’t do X, Y, or Z.

And not saying it’s the case here, but usually the person asking the question falls into that group.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> A million cases a day in the UK by the end of the month. Guess having my booster scheduled for mid-January isn't gonna be so helpful.



Mine (and my wife's) are Monday (Dec 20). Just trying to stay clear of the virus for a few more days. I've tried twice already to get it and been turned away. They sure don't seem to be making it easy for people to do the right thing.


----------



## mhammer

Midnight Rider said:


> Impatient needs,...lol. It's been damn near two years since this ship has sailed. So, it takes these so called professionals two years to study the data on a patients age, sex, pre-existing health conditions and co-morbidities to be conclusive in their conclusions?


Unfortunately, the boat and the ocean keep changing, so anyone seeking definitiveness is barking up the wrong tree.


----------



## mhammer

player99 said:


> I get it . When Pfizer came out the covid rates were lower than when the others where tested so Pfizer seemed to be the best. But it really wasn't. Just covid infections where way lower so they were 95% effective and the other ones like Moderna were at 75%.


Well, there CAN be differences in effectiveness, but since the backdrop keeps changing, anyone shopping for what they think is the "best", based on figures reported in newsmedia by folks who don't really grasp how the figures are arrived at, is on a bit of a fool's errand. If a vaccine shows it is more likely than not to protect against infection or serious illness, that's enough. It's always a struggle to get the broader population to cooperate with needed public health measures, so the most glowing numbers are usually presented, almost as a rhetorical device.

And you'd think that even something as simple as what % of this or that vaccine administrations have resulted in complications might be a more straightforward figure to both produce and rely on, since that doesn't rely on how prevalent the virus is within the community. But you'd probably be wrong about that as well. More recent data finds that intra*venous* injection of vaccine can result in measurably greater risk of cardiac issues (myocarditis) than intra*muscular* injection. While vaccination clinics around the world aim for intramuscular injection, few if any, insist on aspirating (pulling back the syringe plunger a wee bit, before pushing it down) to verify you haven't accidentally hit a blood vessel. And nobody is monitoring the use of aspiration. So we can't even be certain of what the true reaction rate is for this vs that vaccine, under "best practice" injection conditions.

Again, this is not to cause panic or doom and gloom, or undermine trust. Just don't shop for treatments based on small differences in measured outcomes, because the measurement itself may be shaky.


----------



## laristotle

mhammer said:


> More recent data finds that intra*venous* injection of vaccine can result in measurably greater risk of cardiac issues (myocarditis) than intra*muscular* injection. While vaccination clinics around the world aim for intramuscular injection, few if any, insist on aspirating (pulling back the syringe plunger a wee bit, before pushing it down) to verify you haven't accidentally hit a blood vessel. And nobody is monitoring the use of aspiration. So we can't even be certain of what the true reaction rate is for this vs that vaccine, under "best practice" injection conditions.


Maybe go back to the old fashioned fountain pen application?


----------



## allthumbs56

So on the news last night they were all about "Get your booster ASAP and we're opening it up to everybody". Well, here in Niagara they have no plan to expand the program beyond the pharmacies. There's no way we're gonna beat the spread of Omicron with 500,000 arms needing jabs so we might as well strap in cause' it's gonna be a bumpy ride. 😕


----------



## mhammer

Less bumpy if we mask up and stay 6ft apart.


----------



## Milkman

mhammer said:


> Less bumpy if we mask up and stay 6ft apart.


AND get the booster ASAP.


----------



## mhammer

Milkman said:


> AND get the booster ASAP.


Maybe not ASAP, unless the 'P' part includes optimal inter-dose spacing.


----------



## Milkman

mhammer said:


> Maybe not ASAP, unless the 'P' part includes optimal inter-dose spacing.


Possible (in this health unit) means that it is 168 days or more past your second dose.


----------



## ZeroGravity

Got my booster last evening. Managed to get through the ON portal mess Mon morning for an appointment Thursday afternoon, but got a call from a local pharmacy for a day earlier. It (may have) worked out because I preferred to get the Moderna booster to be AZ-Mod-Mod and the municipal clinic is what's available. While I wouldn't have refused Pfizer and have no concerns over protection, and even though it "shouldn't matter", I think the optics of having a double dose of the same is better than the AZ-Mod-Pf triple play.


----------



## ZeroGravity

Milkman said:


> Possible (in this health unit) means that it is 168 days or more past your second dose.


Wasn't part of the 18+ coming on Monday in Ontario include 3 month after Dose-2 instead of 6?


----------



## allthumbs56

ZeroGravity said:


> Wasn't part of the 18+ coming on Monday in Ontario include 3 month after Dose-2 instead of 6?


Yup - they're down to a 3 month gap all of a sudden. Somebody's in a panic


----------



## laristotle

Supply is close to expiration?


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> Supply is close to expiration?


In my area they've got no way to get the arms jabbed fast enough. With the rapidity that Omicron seems to be spreading combined with how slowly our bureaucracy tends to react, Ford going on the news to tell everyone to get their booster "right now" is no more than theatre. We booked as quickly as we could and we're looking at mid-January.


----------



## Milkman

ZeroGravity said:


> Wasn't part of the 18+ coming on Monday in Ontario include 3 month after Dose-2 instead of 6?



Maybe, but I'm a bit past 18 so I made my appointment on Monday as soon as I met the criteria. On Monday (in this health unit) it changed to 168 days past your second dose and 50 years old or older.


----------



## SWLABR

In March 2020 we sent 2/3 of our staff to work from home (not me, I haven't missed a day). They were supposed to come back Sept... then Jan 2021... then March... then Sept. 

Last week we got the official "Jan 2022 Return to Work" email with the list of affected employees, and the rotation they would be in the office, or at home. 

Hot off the presses... delayed till March 2022. And, we already do a pre-screen on an app based survey each morning. Now someone (likely me) will have to take the temperature of EVERYONE entering the building. I hope they get me one of those thermo-guns I just aim at peoples heads! 


Me: "Oh nooooooo! They sent _rectal_ thermometers!"


----------



## ZeroGravity

SWLABR said:


> In March 2020 we sent 2/3 of our staff to work from home (not me, I haven't missed a day). They were supposed to come back Sept... then Jan 2021... then March... then Sept.
> 
> Last week we got the official "Jan 2022 Return to Work" email with the list of affected employees, and the rotation they would be in the office, or at home.
> 
> Hot off the presses... delayed till March 2022. And, we already do a pre-screen on an app based survey each morning. Now someone (likely me) will have to take the temperature of EVERYONE entering the building. I hope they get me one of those thermo-guns I just aim at peoples heads!
> 
> 
> Me: "Oh nooooooo! They sent _rectal_ thermometers!"


Like you, 85% of our staff Has been at home since March 2020. I asked at our staff meeting today about return to work, getting a similar “back in January 2022” email in the Fall. Nothing from our leadership yet but in all fairness, omicron has changed things again.


----------



## SWLABR

ZeroGravity said:


> Nothing from our leadership yet but in all fairness, *omicron has changed things again*.


That's exactly why it's been pushed again, again.


----------



## ZeroGravity

SWLABR said:


> That's exactly why it's been pushed again, again.


I actually couldn’t care less if I ever stepped foot inside my office again. Now the official plan is to go 50/50 but if they push for 100% in the office again, it will be the day I announce my retirement.

update: email just came that current WFH is going to carry into the New Year and until further notice.


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## laristotle

*edit. pre-investigation was not done.


----------



## allthumbs56

deleted


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> Homework, homework, homework:


You are correct. Edited accordingly.


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> You are correct. Edited accordingly.


Ahhh, who's a good kitty?


----------



## Lincoln

I got my third shot yesterday


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> Ahhh, who's a good kitty?


You would be too if you deleted my quote from your post.


----------



## Midnight Rider

allthumbs56 said:


> So on the news last night they were all about "Get your booster ASAP and we're opening it up to everybody". Well, here in Niagara they have no plan to expand the program beyond the pharmacies. There's no way we're gonna beat the spread of Omicron with 500,000 arms needing jabs so we might as well strap in cause' it's gonna be a bumpy ride. 😕


You'll be fine.


----------



## Diablo

So stupid to be rolling out to 18 year olds next week. Where I am, just on the fringe of the GTA, none of the vax clinics have ANY supply for even the 50+ crowd, and the booking site was overloaded most of this week when I tried to get in.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

SWLABR said:


> Now someone (likely me) will have to take the temperature of EVERYONE entering the building. I hope they get me one of those thermo-guns I just aim at peoples heads!


Don't pass up a good opportunity. Get yourself a huge box marked "Rectal thermometers" parked in a conspicuous spot and stand at the door with a smile on your face.


----------



## Wardo

Diablo said:


> So stupid to be rolling out to 18 year olds next week. Where I am, just on the fringe of the GTA, none of the vax clinics have ANY supply for even the 50+ crowd, and the booking site was overloaded most of this week when I tried to get in.


Everything they touch turns to shit; this episode will be no different.


----------



## SWLABR

Jim DaddyO said:


> Don't pass up a good opportunity. Get yourself a huge box marked "Rectal thermometers" parked in a conspicuous spot and stand at the door with a smile on your face.


Ooooooo… I like your style!


----------



## Midnight Rider

mhammer said:


> Unfortunately, the boat and the ocean keep changing, so anyone seeking definitiveness is barking up the wrong tree.


The ocean has remained the same,... the issue is that the boat is springing leaks due to the Captains having difficulty taking accurate Sextant readings in order to navigate through some of the turbulent seas that appear from time to time.

Also, sometimes the Captains seem to be in search of tempestuous seas when the surface waters appear calm and there are no or minimal underlying currents.


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> You would be too if you deleted my quote from your post.


Done. 👍


----------



## allthumbs56

Midnight Rider said:


> You'll be fine.


That's comforting. Can I get your statement peer reviewed?


----------



## allthumbs56

Diablo said:


> So stupid to be rolling out to 18 year olds next week. Where I am, just on the fringe of the GTA, none of the vax clinics have ANY supply for even the 50+ crowd, and the booking site was overloaded most of this week when I tried to get in.


And as of today it's shut down for *everybody* until Monday.


----------



## Wardo

Then they're gonna run out of the shit and that'll be another fuck up.


----------



## laristotle

Midnight Rider said:


> The ocean has remained the same,... the issue is that the boat is springing leaks due to the Captains having difficulty taking accurate Sextant readings in order to navigate through some of the turbulent seas that appear from time to time.
> 
> Also, sometimes the Captains seem to be in search of tempestuous seas when the surface waters appear calm and there are no or minimal underlying currents.


They've been too busy counting strawberries and ignoring iceberg allerts.


----------



## Midnight Rider

allthumbs56 said:


> That's comforting. Can I get your statement peer reviewed?


Just use your own two 👀 to peer through the daily nonsense and you may take comfort in knowing you have discovered with certainty that you will survive this situation. I'm pull'n for ya brother.


----------



## Mikev7305

CDC: Only 21% Of Omicron Cases Occurred In Unvaccinated People | The Daily Wire







www.dailywire.com






_Just 20% of COVID-19 cases caused by the Omicron variant, based on an examination of diagnoses from December 1-8. There were 43 cases attributed to Omicron; 34 were among people who had been “fully vaccinated.” What’s more, one-third of the 34 had also received a third “booster” shot. Just one of those suffering from Omicron was briefly hospitalized._

Granted it's a tiny sample group, but we'll see how this plays out in a couple weeks. 80% of these omicron cases are vaxxed, in the states where 72% are fully vaxxed. And I don't think 1/3 of all those folks have their boosters yet. So the vaccine literally does nothing to stop omicron. Might as well drop the mandate now with this info eh? 🤔


----------



## Wardo

The case count in ontario today was around 2,400 of which something like 700 were unvaxed and 100 unknown so yeah two thirds. I would need to go back and check the newspaper article again for the exact numbers but my recollection is that that’s about it.


----------



## allthumbs56

Mikev7305 said:


> CDC: Only 21% Of Omicron Cases Occurred In Unvaccinated People | The Daily Wire
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.dailywire.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _Just 20% of COVID-19 cases caused by the Omicron variant, based on an examination of diagnoses from December 1-8. There were 43 cases attributed to Omicron; 34 were among people who had been “fully vaccinated.” What’s more, one-third of the 34 had also received a third “booster” shot. Just one of those suffering from Omicron was briefly hospitalized._
> 
> Granted it's a tiny sample group, but we'll see how this plays out in a couple weeks. 80% of these omicron cases are vaxxed, in the states where 72% are fully vaxxed. And I don't think 1/3 of all those folks have their boosters yet. So the vaccine literally does nothing to stop omicron. Might as well drop the mandate now with this info eh? 🤔


Some mixed messages?

_"In plain English, blood samples from people who have had a booster showed “25-fold higher levels of neutralizing antibodies against Omicron compared to blood serum from people immunized with just two doses,” Time magazine reported. “Essentially, the booster brought levels of these virus-fighting antibodies back to those seen after two doses against the original virus strain. More durable immune responses involving T cells were also higher against Omicron after a booster dose.”"_​


----------



## FatStrat2

Kenny McCormikron...


----------



## Midnight Rider

allthumbs56 said:


> Some mixed messages?
> 
> _"In plain English, blood samples from people who have had a booster showed “25-fold higher levels of neutralizing antibodies against Omicron compared to blood serum from people immunized with just two doses,” Time magazine reported. “Essentially, the booster brought levels of these virus-fighting antibodies back to those seen after two doses against the original virus strain. More durable immune responses involving T cells were also higher against Omicron after a booster dose.”"_​


No surprise,... that quote came from Time Magazine was given by Pfizer-BioNTech CEO and co-founder Uger Sahin.
Righhhhhhht,... I think I'll just wait for an independent lab test to see what the lay of the land truly is.

Pfizer-BioNTech Says Booster Protects Against Omicron

This paragraph from the Time Magazine speaks volumes:
"The findings do come with caveats. The studies _were conducted not with live samples of the Omicron variant, but with a lab-made version of the virus._ While it contained the same mutations, it’s still a proxy for the actual variant virus. Sahin said researchers plan to conduct the same studies with live Omicron samples in the coming weeks."

Gotta love the double talk,... ching, ching, lol.


----------



## mhammer

These are, of course, times made ripe for suspicions. But consider.....
Is Pfizer-BioNTech one of the vaccines having the widest use outside of China and Russia? Okay, then don't you expect that company to be asked whether the vaccine will offer protection against the Omicron variant, and for them to be scurrying around trying to figure if it can, or whether they'll have to commit resources to developing a different vaccine? Sahin is not going to shrug his shoulders in response to the question and say "Damned if I know". And as for the "lab-made version", the mRNA vaccines already use a synthetic "spike protein educator", and that has proven effective. So why is a synthetic replica of the Omicron somehow invalid? Equally important - SO much paranoia has erupted, and been encouraged, regarding the Wuhan lab and "things escaping". Exactly what R&D facility is going to be working with the *actual* virus?


----------



## colchar

Mikev7305 said:


> So the vaccine literally does nothing to stop omicron. Might as well drop the mandate now with this info eh? 🤔


That's akin to arguing that because RIDE programs don't catch all drunk drivers we should just say fuck it and let people drive drunk.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

We can book for our booster this coming Monday. My wife will get that done that morning.


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> That's akin to arguing that because RIDE programs don't catch all drunk drivers we should just say fuck it and let people drive drunk.


Yeah, I'm still in favour of using all of the tools in the toolbox. I'd rather pee on the dragon's foot in defiance than just give up and get eaten.


----------



## starjag

Every single individual has become a weapon of mass destruction it seems.



colchar said:


> That's akin to arguing that because RIDE programs don't catch all drunk drivers we should just say fuck it and let people drive drunk.


----------



## Milkman

Jim DaddyO said:


> We can book for our booster this coming Monday. My wife will get that done that morning.


I recommend you get up early. I knew I would be eligible on Monday so I booked it while getting coffeed up that morning. I was able to book one week out (this coming Monday).

I suspect if I had waited until noon I'd be looking at after X-mas.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Milkman said:


> I recommend you get up early. I knew I would be eligible on Monday so I booked it while getting coffeed up that morning. I was able to book one week out (this coming Monday).
> 
> I suspect if I had waited until noon I'd be looking at after X-mas.


The local Algoma health unit is pretty good. Small town, although my wife is looking again and it may be 70+ at this point, so we may not get in for a bit yet.


----------



## zztomato

My wife and I both got ours yesterday. So far so good.
My wife started with AZ then Moderna and Pfizer yesterday. Quite a cocktail.
The pharmacy where we got the booster said they are booking into February right now. That may improve as more sites open up.
I guess the good news is that with so many people vaxed, hospitalizations may remain quite low while immunity continues to rise.


----------



## allthumbs56

zztomato said:


> My wife and I both got ours yesterday. So far so good.
> My wife started with AZ then Moderna and Pfizer yesterday. Quite a cocktail.
> The pharmacy where we got the booster said they are booking into February right now. That may improve as more sites open up.
> *I guess the good news is that with so many people vaxed, hospitalizations may remain quite low while immunity continues to rise.*


News out of South Africa is encouraging:
South Africa hospitalization rate plunges in Omicron wave | Toronto Sun


----------



## ZeroGravity

In Ottawa, at least 6 of the 7 LCBO locations that were supposed to be distributing rapid test kits today had none as reported by CTV Ottawa


----------



## 2manyGuitars

mhammer said:


> These are, of course, times made ripe for suspicions. But consider.....
> Is Pfizer-BioNTech one of the vaccines having the widest use outside of China and Russia? Okay, then don't you expect that company to be asked whether the vaccine will offer protection against the Omicron variant, and for them to be scurrying around trying to figure if it can, or whether they'll have to commit resources to developing a different vaccine? Sahin is not going to shrug his shoulders in response to the question and say "Damned if I know". And as for the "lab-made version", the mRNA vaccines already use a synthetic "spike protein educator", and that has proven effective. So why is a synthetic replica of the Omicron somehow invalid? Equally important - SO much paranoia has erupted, and been encouraged, regarding the Wuhan lab and "things escaping". Exactly what R&D facility is going to be working with the *actual* virus?


The "I'll wait for further research" usually means "I'll wait for the one that confirms my already held opinions".
Of course, we could be accused of the same but when 9 reports have similar findings, I'm less likely to hitch my wagon the the tenth one showing the opposite.



colchar said:


> That's akin to arguing that because RIDE programs don't catch all drunk drivers we should just say fuck it and let people drive drunk.


Take your pick of anti-vaxx logic...
"If seatbelts work, why do I need airbags?"
"If airbags and seatbelts work, why do I need brakes?"
"We have airbags and seatbelts and people still get hurt or die in collisions so why bother?"


----------



## laristotle

COVID-19 vaccine inequity allowed Omicron to emerge


COVID-19 vaccine inequity allowed Omicron to emerge




www.healthing.ca





_While people in the wealthy West have had preferred access to multiple rounds of vaccines, vast numbers of people, especially in Africa and on the Indian subcontinent, haven’t received a single dose. _


----------



## keto

laristotle said:


> COVID-19 vaccine inequity allowed Omicron to emerge
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccine inequity allowed Omicron to emerge
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.healthing.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _While people in the wealthy West have had preferred access to multiple rounds of vaccines, vast numbers of people, especially in Africa and on the Indian subcontinent, haven’t received a single dose. _


I keep reading that's due to vax hesitancy, not due to lack of supply. Who knows any more.


----------



## laristotle

A syringe shortage was in the news not too long ago.








WHO warns of shortage of 1-2 bln COVID vaccine syringes


There could be a shortage of one to two billion syringes needed to administer COVID-19 vaccinations in 2022 which could also impact routine immunisations and undermine needle safety, the World Health Organisation warned on Tuesday.




www.reuters.com


----------



## mhammer

keto said:


> I keep reading that's due to vax hesitancy, not due to lack of supply. Who knows any more.


It's both. Some places lack vaccine. Others have it and can't make the sale. And still others have vaccine, take it, and then behave like it's a magic invisible shield that requires no further cooperation. All three give variants a chance to occur and spread.


----------



## colchar

laristotle said:


> COVID-19 vaccine inequity allowed Omicron to emerge
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccine inequity allowed Omicron to emerge
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.healthing.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _While people in the wealthy West have had preferred access to multiple rounds of vaccines, vast numbers of people, especially in Africa and on the Indian subcontinent, haven’t received a single dose. _


A huge part of that is vaccine hesitancy on their part. I am sick of the guilt trip that is being foisted upon us.


----------



## gtrguy

colchar said:


> A huge part of that is vaccine hesitancy on their part. I am sick of the guilt trip that is being foisted upon us.


Vaccine hesitancy is actually lower in many developing nations than in the US and other affluent countries.









COVID vaccines have higher approval in less-affluent countries


Surveys show that people in ten low- and middle-income nations are generally more eager to receive the COVID-19 jab than people in two wealthier nations where vaccine is plentiful.




www.nature.com


----------



## Wardo

colchar said:


> I am sick of the guilt trip that is being foisted upon us.


100 billion has already been pledged for green scam initiatives in developing countries; you boys need to dig a little deeper and come up with another 500 billion to get the global vax deal going and that’d just be a good start. If the people making $20 an hour could just pay a little bit more this could be easily done.


----------



## colchar

gtrguy said:


> Vaccine hesitancy is actually lower in many developing nations than in the US and other affluent countries.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> COVID vaccines have higher approval in less-affluent countries
> 
> 
> Surveys show that people in ten low- and middle-income nations are generally more eager to receive the COVID-19 jab than people in two wealthier nations where vaccine is plentiful.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nature.com



It is a huge issue in Africa:







SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals


Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.




journals.sagepub.com










__





What is driving COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy in Sub-Saharan Africa?


As African countries accelerate the deployment of COVID-19 (coronavirus) vaccines, the issue of vaccine hesitancy looms. Globally, there has been a rise in general vaccine hesitancy but especially towards COVID-19 vaccines




blogs.worldbank.org








https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2021-11-25/who-vaccine-hesitancy-persists-among-africa-health-workers












The Next Challenge to Vaccinating Africa: Overcoming Skepticism


Vaccines are finally available in many African countries, but an underfunded public health system has slowed their delivery, and some people there, as well as in South Asia, are wary of taking them.




www.nytimes.com














Arrival of 1bn vaccine doses won’t solve Africa’s Covid crisis, experts say


Concerns over equipment shortages, bottlenecks and hesitancy on continent with 7.5% vaccine coverage




www.theguardian.com


----------



## gtrguy

Did you actually read those articles? NY Times is behind a paywall for me but read the World Bank and Guardian articles and then tell me that hesitancy is the main problem that’s being faced in those countries.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Let's just cut to the chase and be realistic. Most everyone is going to contract this virus and one of the variants sooner or later,... it is inevitable. The vaccines may or may not protect you from Omicron. If you have already contracted Covid and fully recovered your immune systems have graced you with antibodies,... which may or may not protect you from contracting Omicron. 

Good news is even though the Omicron variant may be more transmissible the level of infection severity is much less than the Original Covid-19 and Delta variant. Many doctors are coming to this conclusion. The symptoms are mild and do not reach deep into the respiratory system. 

It will probably feel like the average flu for the majority of people and the recovery time much less than Delta from the information being shared by African health officials and doctors. The death rate still remains next to none and common sense would dictate that if Omicron had the ability of increased infection severity over Delta it would have already revealed such an ability.

The medical community and politicians are chasing their tails thinking they will get ahead of new variants. I would wager that there is already another variant evolving to replace Omicron,... and it will also have spread around the globe before health officials discover it. I would also wager that this new variant,... let's call it 'pi' (a.k.a.-powerless infection,...just for shits & giggles), will live up to it's name and make Omicron look like a Tiger in it's prime.

Our immune systems will provide us with protection and if vaccines and or natural antibodies from a previous Covid infection can help take the edge of an Omicron infection to some degree then it's a bonus. 

Also, the sooner governments around the world start providing their people with proven therapeutic treatments to help lessen the severity of infection the better it will be for all, ie. Remdesivir, Dexamethasone, Baricitinib, Tofacitinib, Tocilizumab, Sarilumab, Prednisone, methylprednisolone, hydrocortisone or Monoclonal Antibody Therapy treatments.

A quick story about the positive effects os Monoclonal Antibody Therapy from a family member. My brother is an American citizen residing in Florida. He had contracted the original Covid-19 virus while visiting here in Canada during February 2020. He along with 5 other family members who contracted the virus during that time have all fully recovered without medical treatment or hospitalization. 

Fast forward to this last week. He gives me a call and tells me he tested positive two weeks ago and was again infected. Says he was feeling a little off with flu like symptoms for a few days before taking the test. So, because he lives in Florida and their Governor Ron DeSantis has common sense enough to provide therapeutic treatments for the citizens of his state my brother decides to get the free Monoclonal Antibody treatment. He made the 20 minute drive from his house in Manatee County to one of the 21 clinics they have set up in Florida. Said he answered a few basic questions and they took him in right away,... did I mention it was free? 

He explained the treatment consisted of 4 separate shots. One in each arm, the third in the stomach area and the fourth in his right thigh,... took about 15 minutes when compared to a 30 minute IV/needle option they also offer. Remained at the clinic for another 30 minutes to be monitored for any potential side effects then went home. He said approximately 32 hours after the Monoclonal Antibody treatment he was feeling great and back to work. This treatment has been approved by the US FDA.

Have you even heard any of these approaches that are intended to lessen the burden on health care systems being seriously considered and implemented here in Canada ,... of course not,... it makes too much sense for some of our leadership to wrap their heads around the concept. However, in the not too distant future they will be forced to exercise common sense and realize the only way to logically get through this pandemic will be to use the available tools to prevent any potential serious infection in the event the existing vaccines continue to fail and not protect it citizens after multiple injections. In the two years since this pandemic none of the measures to stop the spread of Covid globally have been successful,... and they never will. This virus will run its course and eventually level off to the potency of the average flu. Many epidemiologists are speaking along these lines,... no, not the mainstream media 'Hollywood' ones. 

This is life,... let's just get on with it already. 

FLA: Monoclonal Antibody Therapy


----------



## zztomato

Midnight Rider said:


> So, because he lives in Florida and their Governor Ron DeSantis has common sense enough to provide therapeutic treatments


Florida has a population of 21M. Over 3M have contracted Covid19 and over 62,000 have died from it. It is not exactly a bastion of common sense. 
Nice that they are offering treatments though.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Interesting read at Global News.

The great COVID-19 infodemic: How disinformation networks are radicalizing Canadians - National | Globalnews.ca


----------



## FatStrat2

^ Avoid any article that has the phrase 'conspiracy theory' in it.

People die all the time, I don't see what the hype is or the necessary need for stats on that. Here's another useless one to add to the pile: over 50 people died last year from pails falling on their heads while working on their homes. No one cares. That's life.


----------



## tomee2

FatStrat2 said:


> ^ Avoid any article that has the phrase 'conspiracy theory' in it.
> 
> People die all the time, I don't see what the hype is or the necessary need for stats on that. Here's another useless one to add to the pile: over 50 people died last year from pails falling on their heads while working on their homes. No one cares. That's life.


 Pails falling is not contagious. If a pail falls on my head, 9 people I meet don't suddenly have pails falling on their heads, and the the 81 people they meet don't suddenly have pails falling on their heads..etc...


----------



## tomee2

Midnight Rider said:


> Let's just cut to the chase and be realistic. Most everyone is going to contract this virus and one of the variants sooner or later,... it is inevitable. The vaccines may or may not protect you from Omicron. If you have already contracted Covid and fully recovered your immune systems have graced you with antibodies,... which may or may not protect you from contracting Omicron.
> 
> Good news is even though the Omicron variant may be more transmissible the level of infection severity is much less than the Original Covid-19 and Delta variant. Many doctors are coming to this conclusion. The symptoms are mild and do not reach deep into the respiratory system.
> 
> It will probably feel like the average flu for the majority of people and the recovery time much less than Delta from the information being shared by African health officials and doctors. The death rate still remains next to none and common sense would dictate that if Omicron had the ability of increased infection severity over Delta it would have already revealed such an ability.
> 
> The medical community and politicians are chasing their tails thinking they will get ahead of new variants. I would wager that there is already another variant evolving to replace Omicron,... and it will also have spread around the globe before health officials discover it. I would also wager that this new variant,... let's call it 'pi' (a.k.a.-powerless infection,...just for shits & giggles), will live up to it's name and make Omicron look like a Tiger in it's prime.
> 
> Our immune systems will provide us with protection and if vaccines and or natural antibodies from a previous Covid infection can help take the edge of an Omicron infection to some degree then it's a bonus.
> 
> Also, the sooner governments around the world start providing their people with proven therapeutic treatments to help lessen the severity of infection the better it will be for all, ie. Remdesivir, Dexamethasone, Baricitinib, Tofacitinib, Tocilizumab, Sarilumab, Prednisone, methylprednisolone, hydrocortisone or Monoclonal Antibody Therapy treatments.
> 
> A quick story about the positive effects os Monoclonal Antibody Therapy from a family member. My brother is an American citizen residing in Florida. He had contracted the original Covid-19 virus while visiting here in Canada during February 2020. He along with 5 other family members who contracted the virus during that time have all fully recovered without medical treatment or hospitalization.
> 
> Fast forward to this last week. He gives me a call and tells me he tested positive two weeks ago and was again infected. Says he was feeling a little off with flu like symptoms for a few days before taking the test. So, because he lives in Florida and their Governor Ron DeSantis has common sense enough to provide therapeutic treatments for the citizens of his state my brother decides to get the free Monoclonal Antibody treatment. He made the 20 minute drive from his house in Manatee County to one of the 21 clinics they have set up in Florida. Said he answered a few basic questions and they took him in right away,... did I mention it was free?
> 
> He explained the treatment consisted of 4 separate shots. One in each arm, the third in the stomach area and the fourth in his right thigh,... took about 15 minutes when compared to a 30 minute IV/needle option they also offer. Remained at the clinic for another 30 minutes to be monitored for any potential side effects then went home. He said approximately 32 hours after the Monoclonal Antibody treatment he was feeling great and back to work. This treatment has been approved by the US FDA.
> 
> Have you even heard any of these approaches that are intended to lessen the burden on health care systems being seriously considered and implemented here in Canada ,... of course not,... it makes too much sense for some of our leadership to wrap their heads around the concept. However, in the not too distant future they will be forced to exercise common sense and realize the only way to logically get through this pandemic will be to use the available tools to prevent any potential serious infection in the event the existing vaccines continue to fail and not protect it citizens after multiple injections. In the two years since this pandemic none of the measures to stop the spread of Covid globally have been successful,... and they never will. This virus will run its course and eventually level off to the potency of the average flu. Many epidemiologists are speaking along these lines,... no, not the mainstream media 'Hollywood' ones.
> 
> This is life,... let's just get on with it already.
> 
> FLA: Monoclonal Antibody Therapy
> View attachment 393389
> View attachment 393390
> View attachment 393391


Covid treatment in Csnada is free as well, and they are using the monoclonal antibodies on the sickest people in hospital. We have about 1/3rd the deaths per 100,000 FL does, not exactly a place I want our rules coming from.


----------



## FatStrat2

Unlike pails, this new variant isn't deadly and it's not cramming the hospitals. COVID's naturally milder Omicron variant is a good thing because it's the beginning of the end of this nonsense. That is, until the next one that China inevitably brings along in a few years.


----------



## laristotle

Forget pails, it's pianos and anvils that you have to worry about.


----------



## colchar

gtrguy said:


> Did you actually read those articles? NY Times is behind a paywall for me but read the World Bank and Guardian articles and then tell me that hesitancy is the main problem that’s being faced in those countries.


I never said it was the main problem, I said it was a huge one.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

FatStrat2 said:


> this new variant isn't deadly and it's not cramming the hospitals. COVID's naturally milder Omicron variant is a good thing because it's the beginning of the end of this nonsense.


I still would not bet money on that. This is the preliminary observations, so far, in a country that may or may not end up being the outlier because of different conditions. As readily as the virus changes, so do conditions. Let's get some long term data pertaining to conditions that are comparible before we jump to conclusions.

I'm not saying your wrong, just that we shouldn't be breaking out the party hats quite yet.


----------



## mhammer

As many epidemiologists have noted, testing positive is a _leading_ indicator. Someone who tests positive today and is asymptomatic, may well be rushed to emergency 2 weeks from now. Best to wait a little while longer before jumping to conclusions about the level of danger. In the meantime, an ounce of prevention is not too much to ask.

Was in a Metro store this morning. A guy comes in behind me,maskless. Since I've had more than my fair share of "D'oh!" moments where the mask was absentmindedly left in the car, I simply smile and say "Don't forget to mask up". The guy doesn't say anything but gives me a neutral "Yeah, I heard you" look and proceeds to snag a cart and enter the store, where I see him happily working his way around the aisles with no one approaching him and requesting that he mask up. He goes through the entire store and as I approach the checkout, I see he is there, still maskless. This despite signs at the entrance that insist one have proper face-covering. Thanks for helping, buddy.

I wasn't expecting the kids stocking the shelves to confront him, and there have been enough tales of tussles erupting when customers consider complying with public health rules beneath them. But you would think the store manager has both the authority, and the desire to not have their store become a known hotspot, to stop and either offer the guy a mask or gently request he put on his own. Apparently, neither administrative nor biological rules apply to the guy, though.

I guess this is where I get to say, both literally and figuratively: their kind make me sick.


----------



## ZeroGravity

I have no idea what it means but of the 251 cases reported today in Ottawa, none were Omicron variant according to the daily CityNews Ottawa email I get.









No new Omicron cases in Ottawa while city reports decrease in new daily cases


However, the city represents about 7.6 per cent of all cases reported throughout the province on Saturday, December 18.




ottawa.citynews.ca


----------



## ZeroGravity

mhammer said:


> Was in a Metro store this morning. A guy comes in behind me,maskless. Since I've had more than my fair share of "D'oh!" moments where the mask was absentmindedly left in the car,


 The other day I wandered into the drug store, picked up what I needed and proceeded to the cash only to come to the realization I hadn’t put a mask on, which I did hurriedly and embarrassed. Fortunately I actually didn’t cross anyone in the store.


----------



## Guitar101

Jim DaddyO said:


> Interesting read at Global News.
> 
> The great COVID-19 infodemic: How disinformation networks are radicalizing Canadians - National | Globalnews.ca


Did they mention Midnight Rider?😷


----------



## Paul Running

miSherlock – Detecting COVID-19 Variants from Saliva


Researchers at the Wyss Institute at Harvard University and MIT have created a low-cost, CRISPR-based diagnostic platform that can detect SARS-CoV-2 variants in a patient’s saliva without the need for any additional equipment.




wyss.harvard.edu


----------



## tomee2

mhammer said:


> As many epidemiologists have noted, testing positive is a _leading_ indicator. Someone who tests positive today and is asymptomatic, may well be rushed to emergency 2 weeks from now. Best to wait a little while longer before jumping to conclusions about the level of danger. In the meantime, an ounce of prevention is not too much to ask.
> 
> Was in a Metro store this morning. A guy comes in behind me,maskless. Since I've had more than my fair share of "D'oh!" moments where the mask was absentmindedly left in the car, I simply smile and say "Don't forget to mask up". The guy doesn't say anything but gives me a neutral "Yeah, I heard you" look and proceeds to snag a cart and enter the store, where I see him happily working his way around the aisles with no one approaching him and requesting that he mask up. He goes through the entire store and as I approach the checkout, I see he is there, still maskless. This despite signs at the entrance that insist one have proper face-covering. Thanks for helping, buddy.
> 
> I wasn't expecting the kids stocking the shelves to confront him, and there have been enough tales of tussles erupting when customers consider complying with public health rules beneath them. But you would think the store manager has both the authority, and the desire to not have their store become a known hotspot, to stop and either offer the guy a mask or gently request he put on his own. Apparently, neither administrative nor biological rules apply to the guy, though.
> 
> I guess this is where I get to say, both literally and figuratively: their kind make me sick.


My sons both worked at Metro over the summer. They could ask people politely to mask up. If they got nasty they were supposed to walk away and get management. Both said only 1 person every few days went in without a mask.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

All the studies, research, interpretation of findings, blah, blah, blah...
Anyone can spin it in their own mind to fit what they believe.

Someone compiled a bunch of these. Here are a few to give you an idea. Kinda hard to spin these numbers.


----------



## FatStrat2

My next guitar is going to be red, just like those little guys.


----------



## Doug Gifford

FatStrat2 said:


> My next guitar is going to be red, just like those little guys.


----------



## player99

I got the third shot today. I didn't expect them to be giving the shots in the ass though. The guy took me into a side room and got me to take my pants off. It really hurt.

I'm not sure about the 4th shot...


----------



## Midnight Rider

zztomato said:


> Florida has a population of 21M. Over 3M have contracted Covid19 and over 62,000 have died from it. It is not exactly a bastion of common sense.
> Nice that they are offering treatments though.


What most people overlook when discussing Florida is the fact that they have the second highest population of people aged 65 and older in the entire USA,... Maine is #1. Florida's annual death rate was second highest in the USA,... pre-Covid-19. With Covid now part of the equation it should not surprise anyone that the death rate would be somewhat higher in Florida and many other states in the USA. 









If you click on the links provided they will reveal data that shows as of December 16, 2021 there are 9 states that currently have a higher Covid death rate per 100,000 people with an overall younger aged population.

Here's a little comparison between two US states with very similar populations.

*Florida*: Population - *21.48 million*.
1. As of Dec.16 - Covid Death Rate per 100,000 people = *289
U.S. COVID-19 death rate by state | Statista*

2. As of Dec.17 - Over the last seven days: Average daily Covid deaths = *26.3 *with deaths per 100,000 people at* 0.12*_._
This puts Florida in the *49th* position out of 50 for having the least deaths per 100,000 people,... Alaska has the best record.States ranked by COVID-19 death rates: Dec. 17

3. Percent of the population that is 65+ years of age is *second* out of the 50 states at* 20.5%* which represents *4,498,198* people.
Which U.S. States Have the Oldest Populations?
Senior population of the U.S. by state 2019 | Statista

4. Total Covid cases sits at *3.75 million* with *62,220 deaths* being recorded.

*New York: *Population - *19.45 million*.
1. As of Dec.16 - Covid Death Rate per 100,000 people = *300
U.S. COVID-19 death rate by state | Statista*

2. As of Dec.17 - Over the last seven days: Average daily Covid deaths =* 57.7* with deaths per 100,000 people at *0.3*_._
This puts New York in the *33rd* position out of 50 for having the least deaths per 100,000 people.States ranked by COVID-19 death rates: Dec. 17

3. Percent of the population that is 65+ years of age is* twenty sixth* out of the 50 states at *16.4% *which represents *3,295,968 *people.
Which U.S. States Have the Oldest Populations?
Senior population of the U.S. by state 2019 | Statista

4. Total Covid cases sits at *2.93 million *with *58,037 deaths* being recorded.

As you can see New York is doing much worse than Florida in some key categories,... but there are many doing far worse than FLA and NY.

I'll stick with my previous comment that Governor Ron DeSantis has and continues to manage his state in the proper manner considering the aging population that resides in Florida. Seems he has outperformed the way in which Canada handles it's nursing home situation during Covid and pre-Covid.


----------



## Midnight Rider

tomee2 said:


> Covid treatment in Csnada is free as well, and they are using the monoclonal antibodies on the sickest people in hospital. We have about 1/3rd the deaths per 100,000 FL does, not exactly a place I want our rules coming from.


Well there in lies the problem,... Canada only administers Monoclonal Antibody therapy on the sickest people,... too little too late. Always a step or two behind, lol.

Do you have a link you can provide showing when Health Canada started using this therapeutic?


----------



## Mooh

@2manyGuitars Thanks for the graphics.

The anti-mask/vax protesters were out in force in our business section yesterday until early afternoon. I passed them on my way to and from the booster clinic where I got my third dose. We certainly don't think alike.


----------



## zztomato

Midnight Rider said:


> What most people overlook when discussing Florida is the fact that they have the second highest population of people aged 65 and older in the entire USA,... Maine is #1. Florida's annual death rate was second highest in the USA,... pre-Covid-19. With Covid now part of the equation it should not surprise anyone that the death rate would be somewhat higher in Florida and many other states in the USA.
> View attachment 393629
> 
> 
> If you click on the links provided they will reveal data that shows as of December 16, 2021 there are 9 states that currently have a higher Covid death rate per 100,000 people with an overall younger aged population.
> 
> Here's a little comparison between two US states with very similar populations.
> 
> *Florida*: Population - *21.48 million*.
> 1. As of Dec.16 - Covid Death Rate per 100,000 people = *289
> U.S. COVID-19 death rate by state | Statista*
> 
> 2. As of Dec.17 - Over the last seven days: Average daily Covid deaths = *26.3 *with deaths per 100,000 people at* 0.12*_._
> This puts Florida in the *49th* position out of 50 for having the least deaths per 100,000 people,... Alaska has the best record.States ranked by COVID-19 death rates: Dec. 17
> 
> 3. Percent of the population that is 65+ years of age is *second* out of the 50 states at* 20.5%* which represents *4,498,198* people.
> Which U.S. States Have the Oldest Populations?
> Senior population of the U.S. by state 2019 | Statista
> 
> 4. Total Covid cases sits at *3.75 million* with *62,220 deaths* being recorded.
> 
> *New York: *Population - *19.45 million*.
> 1. As of Dec.16 - Covid Death Rate per 100,000 people = *300
> U.S. COVID-19 death rate by state | Statista*
> 
> 2. As of Dec.17 - Over the last seven days: Average daily Covid deaths =* 57.7* with deaths per 100,000 people at *0.3*_._
> This puts New York in the *33rd* position out of 50 for having the least deaths per 100,000 people.States ranked by COVID-19 death rates: Dec. 17
> 
> 3. Percent of the population that is 65+ years of age is* twenty sixth* out of the 50 states at *16.4% *which represents *3,295,968 *people.
> Which U.S. States Have the Oldest Populations?
> Senior population of the U.S. by state 2019 | Statista
> 
> 4. Total Covid cases sits at *2.93 million *with *58,037 deaths* being recorded.
> 
> As you can see New York is doing much worse than Florida in some key categories,... but there are many doing far worse than FLA and NY.
> 
> I'll stick with my previous comment that Governor Ron DeSantis has and continues to manage his state in the proper manner considering the aging population that resides in Florida. Seems he has outperformed the way in which Canada handles it's nursing home situation during Covid and pre-Covid.
> 
> View attachment 393630
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 393631
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 393632


Florida also has had a very slow uptake on vaccination. Only 62% are fully vaxed. It was below 40% in the summer. This is the consequence of making the vaccine a political issue rather than a health science issue. But, you know, they have Mr. Common sense as Gov. 
In the US right now they are into another severe Covid wave and it's delta, Omicron is right behind it. Hopefully hospitals are not overwhelmed again.


----------



## Guitar101

I was looking forward to watching a Leafs game last night but it was cancelled. What was playing in it's place turned out to be Ottawa playing in the US somewhere. The arena was full of spectators so obviously they are not worried about Omicron down there.


----------



## FatStrat2

From my experience locally, not even the elderly are worried about Omicron. Only the media care.


----------



## zztomato

FatStrat2 said:


> From my experience locally, not even the elderly are worried about Omicron. Only the media care.


Are you in Florida?


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Doug Gifford

My sister and her husband have wintered in Florida for some years. They left Florida early in 2020 and didn't go at all the next winter. Their RV was moved by management into a storage area that is exposed to the elements It has degenerated and the (new) management wanted to charge them for storage and/or getting rid of it so they went down to settle matters.

Getting back into Canada was difficult because of the somewhat fuzzy rules and now, though they carefully followed the rules and should not need to isolate, they've been harassed by government agents checking on them. Nonetheless, they're very glad to be back in Canada and didn't feel at all safe in Florida where people seem to be in denial.


----------



## tomee2

Midnight Rider said:


> Well there in lies the problem,... Canada only administers Monoclonal Antibody therapy on the sickest people,... too little too late. Always a step or two behind, lol.
> 
> Do you have a link you can provide showing when Health Canada started using this therapeutic?











Which COVID-19 treatments are approved for use in Canada?


Several different types of therapies for COVID-19 have been approved for use in Canada, including a number of therapeutics being experimented with as part of clinical trials across the country. CTVNews.ca looks at some of the treatments available.




www.ctvnews.ca





Compared to the US Canada is sitting at about 1/30 the deaths per million with about 1/10th the population. What we're doing in Canada is working.


----------



## bolero

Curious to see what other strains omicron mutates into, since it is so aggressive & widespread


----------



## mhammer

Midnight Rider said:


> What most people overlook when discussing Florida is the fact that they have the second highest population of people aged 65 and older in the entire USA,... Maine is #1. Florida's annual death rate was second highest in the USA,... pre-Covid-19. With Covid now part of the equation it should not surprise anyone that the death rate would be somewhat higher in Florida and many other states in the USA.
> View attachment 393629
> 
> 
> If you click on the links provided they will reveal data that shows as of December 16, 2021 there are 9 states that currently have a higher Covid death rate per 100,000 people with an overall younger aged population.
> 
> Here's a little comparison between two US states with very similar populations.
> 
> *Florida*: Population - *21.48 million*.
> 1. As of Dec.16 - Covid Death Rate per 100,000 people = *289
> U.S. COVID-19 death rate by state | Statista*
> 
> 2. As of Dec.17 - Over the last seven days: Average daily Covid deaths = *26.3 *with deaths per 100,000 people at* 0.12*_._
> This puts Florida in the *49th* position out of 50 for having the least deaths per 100,000 people,... Alaska has the best record.States ranked by COVID-19 death rates: Dec. 17
> 
> 3. Percent of the population that is 65+ years of age is *second* out of the 50 states at* 20.5%* which represents *4,498,198* people.
> Which U.S. States Have the Oldest Populations?
> Senior population of the U.S. by state 2019 | Statista
> 
> 4. Total Covid cases sits at *3.75 million* with *62,220 deaths* being recorded.
> 
> *New York: *Population - *19.45 million*.
> 1. As of Dec.16 - Covid Death Rate per 100,000 people = *300
> U.S. COVID-19 death rate by state | Statista*
> 
> 2. As of Dec.17 - Over the last seven days: Average daily Covid deaths =* 57.7* with deaths per 100,000 people at *0.3*_._
> This puts New York in the *33rd* position out of 50 for having the least deaths per 100,000 people.States ranked by COVID-19 death rates: Dec. 17
> 
> 3. Percent of the population that is 65+ years of age is* twenty sixth* out of the 50 states at *16.4% *which represents *3,295,968 *people.
> Which U.S. States Have the Oldest Populations?
> Senior population of the U.S. by state 2019 | Statista
> 
> 4. Total Covid cases sits at *2.93 million *with *58,037 deaths* being recorded.
> 
> As you can see New York is doing much worse than Florida in some key categories,... but there are many doing far worse than FLA and NY.
> 
> I'll stick with my previous comment that Governor Ron DeSantis has and continues to manage his state in the proper manner considering the aging population that resides in Florida. Seems he has outperformed the way in which Canada handles it's nursing home situation during Covid and pre-Covid.
> 
> View attachment 393630
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 393631
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 393632


One of the things Florida had been doing since the start of the pandemic is excluding from their official numbers deaths of people whose permanent residence is outside Florida, but who may spend significant parts of the year (e.g., December through to April) IN Florida. So a snowbird who closes up their Scarborough or Dollard Des Ormeaux house, and motors/flies to Boca Raton or Miami, gets sick there, and possibly dies, is NOT included in Florida state tallies because "they're an outsider not a resident"..

Now, at one level, that kinda sorta makes sense. After all, many of the per capita estimates are based on known population. One would not, for example, calculate the needs of school boards in the state by tabulating mean family size of "Floridians" by including anyone and everyone who happens to have a time-share there. At the same time, when people congregate somewhere, and that place poses some level of known risk, one does not estimate risk by excluding those facing risk who may be from abroad. When 49 were brutally shot dead, and 53 others wounded, at the Orlando nightclub 5 years ago, one does not report that as lower numbers because some of the victims may have only been visiting from elsewhere. If they died IN Florida then that counts as part of Florida's numbers.

I'm certainly open to contrary evidence, but until such time as Florida starts reporting numbers like "34% of Covid patients who succumbed to the virus were formally out-of-state residents", given how much of a mecca for tourists and seniors it is (and I have 2 in-laws down there at the moment) I'll treat their ranking among states _very_ tentatively.


----------



## mhammer

bolero said:


> Curious to see what other strains omicron mutates into, since it is so aggressive & widespread


Let's remember that viruses can mutate into more contagious variants ANYWHERE in the world, although the odds increase in regions where less has been achieved with respect to lowering contagion. And though the odds are very small, there is absolutely nothing in the world that precludes the same mutation from cropping up entirely independently in multiple places. After all, viruses have complex genetic information, but are VERY simple organisms with less genetic variation than, say, mice, or humans. I fully understand the impetus to put up barriers to entry from places with known outbreaks. But that does not provide those who live here from being sloppy and careless, and creating variants because they have not done enough to prevent contagion. We can grow our own nasty variants, thank you very much.


----------



## mhammer

Ask someone what their chances of winning the Lottomax are if they buy one ticket, and they'll likely say very small, unless seriously deluded. "Would your chances be better if you bought 5 tickets?". "Sure". "And if you bought 100 tickets, varying up your numbers strategically, would your chances be noticeably better?". "Certainly".

"Are you likely to get hired if your resume is strong?". "Sometimes, yeah". "And if you write a persuasive cover letter?". "Uh-huh". "Would it help if you showed up to an interview in sweatpants and a tank-top?". "Are you kidding? If I want the job, I'll get a haircut and shave, make sure I shower that morning, and wear clean neat clothes to the interview, that are appropriate to the job and workplace."

People seem to understand cumulative probability when it applies to something they really want. But somehow, when it comes to something they _don't_ want, the very idea of improving their chances of avoiding that undesirable outcome by engaging in multiple actions that each independently sum to change the odds, even if only by small amounts, they view that as pointless or stupid.

I thought our pet bunny was weird, but people are certainly weirder.


----------



## Paul Running

bolero said:


> Curious to see what other strains omicron mutates into, since it is so aggressive & widespread


----------



## colchar

Guitar101 said:


> I was looking forward to watching a Leafs game last night but it was cancelled. What was playing in it's place turned out to be Ottawa playing in the US somewhere. The arena was full of spectators so obviously they are not worried about Omicron down there.


Depends on the location. That game was in Philly, but my brother and sister-in-law are in New York City right now and Omicron is an issue there. I assume that is due to how badly NYC got hit in the first wave. Apparently there are testing sites and vaccination sites everywhere and people are quite militant about masking, etc. They had to change their flight home (was supposed to be today) because they don't have their test results yet (plenty of testing sites, but that is putting pressure on the back end where the tests are actually processed) and cannot fly home until they have them.


----------



## colchar

Doug Gifford said:


> My sister and her husband have wintered in Florida for some years. They left Florida early in 2020 and didn't go at all the next winter. Their RV was moved by management into a storage area that is exposed to the elements It has degenerated and the (new) management wanted to charge them for storage and/or getting rid of it so they went down to settle matters.


That sounds weird, aren't RVs always exposed to the elements?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> when it comes to something they _don't_ want, the very idea of improving their chances of avoiding that undesirable outcome by engaging in multiple actions that each independently sum to change the odds,


Blatantly obvious. People hate getting speeding tickets, but won't slow down. People hate DUI charges, but still repeatedly drink and drive (to the point they still drive with their license suspended). They will certainly bitch that the cops ought to be doing something better with their time than catching THEM breaking the law though. Always an excuse, but never taking responsibility.


----------



## Doug Gifford

colchar said:


> That sounds weird, aren't RVs always exposed to the elements?


Well, there _was_ a hurricane.


----------



## colchar

Doug Gifford said:


> Well, there _was_ a hurricane.



That makes a difference. Florida isn't real high on my list of things to pay attention to so, although I would have heard about the hurricane in the news at the time, it isn't something I would have remembered.


----------



## Mooh

I trust Pfizer.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Mooh said:


> View attachment 393729
> 
> 
> I trust Pfizer.


You take that and you know a hard time is coming.


----------



## keto

Mooh said:


> View attachment 393729
> 
> 
> I trust Pfizer.


In case anyone missed the headline, those are also just about the highest % prophylactic against dementia among all medicines they have studied.


----------



## colchar

keto said:


> In case anyone missed the headline, those are also just about the highest % prophylactic against dementia among all medicines they have studied.



What about for women?


----------



## colchar

Why is it _always_ Florida?










Florida man kicked off flight after trying to wear women's underwear as a face mask


A Florida man was kicked off of an United Airlines flight for wearing women's underwear over his nose and mouth instead of a mask.




www.ctvnews.ca





And this is the place some idiots think we should emulate?!?!


----------



## Mooh

keto said:


> In case anyone missed the headline, those are also just about the highest % prophylactic against dementia among all medicines they have studied.


Come again? Yes, I think that was raised earlier, but it does bare repeating.


----------



## Guitar101

A couple of observations: The booster is a 1/2 dose so I'm told.
The media has been saying that the Omicron variant is not so bad if you get it. I'm wondering if their factoring in the fact that 80% of the people are vaccinated and that is supposed to keep you out of the hospital. Now their saying it is worse than they thought. If so, the unvaccinated may be in for a big surprise. Time will tell. I wish them no ill will at all and all we can do is hope for the best.


----------



## ZeroGravity

Guitar101 said:


> A couple of observations: The booster is a 1/2 dose so I'm told.
> The media has been saying that the Omicron variant is not so bad if you get it. I'm wondering if their factoring in the fact that 80% of the people are vaccinated and that is supposed to keep you out of the hospital. Now their saying it is worse than they thought. If so, the unvaccinated may be in for a big surprise. Time will tell. I wish them no ill will at all and all we can do is hope for the best.


Moderna is a 1/2 dose and Pfizer is a full dose.

Public Health is in a no-win situation. Wait to see if the latest variant is bad or not until it’s too late and they are damned for not acting fast enough and act quickly to try and contain and it turns out to be not so bad is draconian and crying wolf.


----------



## tdotrob

It would be cool if omicron caused permanent impotence and damaged reproductive organs in non vaccinated people. Then in 50 years omicron and covid would be looked upon and documented fondly as the era that saved humanity. That would be sweet.


----------



## colchar

ZeroGravity said:


> Moderna is a 1/2 dose and Pfizer is a full dose.
> 
> Public Health is in a no-win situation. Wait to see if the latest variant is bad or not until it’s too late and they are damned for not acting fast enough and act quickly to try and contain and it turns out to be not so bad is draconian and crying wolf.



Yeah the expertise of the armchair quarterbacks is fucking astounding.


----------



## ZeroGravity

colchar said:


> Yeah the expertise of the armchair quarterbacks is fucking astounding.


Unfortunately one side or the other of internet experts are going to gloat the the smug I-told-you-so attitude in the other’s face.

No-win but either way one thinks, we are all fucking tired of it so let’s grind through it and do what it takes get it done instead of trying to score internet points.


----------



## FatStrat2

tdotrob said:


> ...omicron caused permanent impotence and damaged reproductive organs in non vaccinated people...


Some guy somewhere someplace at some point in time told me the same thing about taking the vaccine.


----------



## tdotrob

FatStrat2 said:


> Some guy somewhere someplace at some point in time told me the same thing about taking the vaccine.


It was my evil twin brother. He’s unvaccinated but his Dick is soft as butter now too so choose sides wisely


----------



## mhammer

ZeroGravity said:


> Unfortunately one side or the other of internet experts are going to gloat the the smug I-told-you-so attitude in the other’s face.
> 
> No-win but either way one thinks, we are all fucking tired of it so let’s grind through it and do what it takes get it done instead of trying to score internet points.


Like I keep saying, there's only two questions to ask:

1) Do you want this virus to go away, or at least fade so far into the background that we don't have to worry about it?

2) If so, what steps do you feel could or should be taken to expedite that?

I don't know if you ever watched the excellent crime-detective series "Cracker", where Robblie Coltrane stars as a forensic psychologist who has some "issues", chief among them his gambling. In one episode, he's trying to explain to someone what the attraction of gambling is to him, and he says it's not at all about the money. Rather, if and when he wins, *it means he was RIGHT*. He doesn't care so much for the winnings, or the accrued gambling debt; he just wants to know in his heart that HE was RIGHT. One gets the sense that many of the "opinions" from pandemic/vaccine contrarians and naysayers have nothing to do with helping to make this pox less of a burden on everyone. Rather,they are motivated by *being right*...at least in their own mind. I.E., they're not particularly interested in question #2, only in negating the strategies from others trying desperately to solve #2.


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> What about for women?


Well, insomuch as men are one of the greatest risks for women losing their minds, I would imagine that anything preventing dementia in men works to women's advantage as well. But, in all seriousness, I wonder if the vascular effects of Sildenafil on women is also beneficial.

I doubt that the Wachowski Brothers (now transitioned to be sisters...?????) gave consideration to the eventual meaning of the term "blue pill" when they originally made The Matrix well over 20 years ago.


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> I doubt that the Wachowski Brothers (now transitioned to be sisters...?????)


Jesus Christ, they actually are.




> when they originally made The Matrix well over 20 years ago.



I have never watched a minute of any of those films.


----------



## Midnight Rider

zztomato said:


> Florida also has had a very slow uptake on vaccination. Only 62% are fully vaxed. It was below 40% in the summer. This is the consequence of making the vaccine a political issue rather than a health science issue. But, you know, they have Mr. Common sense as Gov.
> In the US right now they are into another severe Covid wave and it's delta, Omicron is right behind it. Hopefully hospitals are not overwhelmed again.


Well,... continue to believe that somehow you are less likely to contract the virus than people living in Florida or anywhere else in the world. The two or three injections you may have taken obviously have been proven not be the suit of armour the experts anticipated to be,... I know,... it is disappointing but none the less our reality.

The UK is also having a Covid wave with 70% of new cases being the Omicron variant,... could be worse,... it could have been Delta. The United Kingdom vaccination data show 90% first dose, 82% second dose and 49% booster dose,... and still the cases rise,... go figure. Looks like it's time to implement the Monoclonal Antibodies Therapy and Therapeutic approach worldwide,... or would this be to logical of a direction to move in? 

I stated in my last post that as of Dec.17, 2021 over the last 7 days Covid deaths in Florida per 100,000 people was _*0.12*._
For the same 7 day time period in Ontario the Covid death rate per 100,000 people was _*0.30*_.

I'm fairly certain Covid continues to wave around Canada and not just the US,... same for Omicron,... which will be the welcomed lesser of the two evils and by the looks of things much less severe. Out with the old,... in with the new,... and the beginning of the pandemic end. Yes, I am currently that confident based on the overall data and number death counts from several reporting sources globally. Natural immunity here we come.

The only reason for any potential situation that hospitals may be overwhelmed would be due to the absolutely unacceptable ICU bed counts in Ontario and this country.

As of December 19, 2021 Ontario has 283 hospitalized Covid patience of which 159 are in ICU due to Covid related illness. Ontario currently has 2,350 ICU beds province wide with a population of 14,789,778,... F'n pathetic! This is after they added the extra 350 ICU beds last spring,... talk about perpetually ill-prepared. This is our Social Health Care at work with the tax dollar contribution from Canadians?,... dismal at best.

Keep in mind when looking at these data charts that Canada has approximately 22.83 ICU beds per 100,000 population. From the data I could find this equates to approximately 8,734 ICU beds for the entire country of 38,246,108 people.Don't know why Canada wasn't included in the list. One of the attached PDF's from 2015 explains how ICU numbers in Canada were identified as inadequate,... which ultimately proved true with the arrival of Covid-19. A warning that fell on the deaf ears of our politicians and health care sector.
ICU Beds by Country























Furthermore, Canada sits in position 29 out of 38 countries with regards to hospital beds per 1,000 people. As of December 2019 that number was 2.52 beds per 1,000. Compare that to #1 ranked Japan having 12.84 hospital beds per 1,000 people. Hospital Beds by Country
























When I hear Canadians boast about what a great social health care system we have I sometimes want to clunk them on the cranium with a #20 sized cast iron skillet,"😣"🍳. I'm just wondering when Canadian's are going to band together and get pissed off enough to demand change and have the government deliver the goods that every tax paying citizen of this country deserves.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Paul Running said:


> View attachment 393684


Oh yeah,...uh-huh,...I see what you did there.


----------



## tdotrob

Midnight Rider said:


> Well,... continue to believe that somehow you are less likely to contract the virus than people living in Florida or anywhere else in the world. The two or three injections you may have taken obviously have been proven not be the suit of armour the experts anticipated to be,... I know,... it is disappointing but none the less our reality.
> 
> The UK is also having a Covid wave with 70% of new cases being the Omicron variant,... could be worse,... it could have been Delta. The United Kingdom vaccination data show 90% first dose, 82% second dose and 49% booster dose,... and still the cases rise,... go figure. Looks like it's time to implement the Monoclonal Antibodies Therapy and Therapeutic approach worldwide,... or would this be to logical of a direction to move in?
> 
> I stated in my last post that as of Dec.17, 2021 over the last 7 days Covid deaths in Florida per 100,000 people was _*0.12*._
> For the same 7 day time period in Ontario the Covid death rate per 100,000 people was _*0.30*_.
> 
> I'm fairly certain Covid continues to wave around Canada and not just the US,... same for Omicron,... which will be the welcomed lesser of the two evils and by the looks of things much less severe. Out with the old,... in with the new,... and the beginning of the pandemic end. Yes, I am currently that confident based on the overall data and number death counts from several reporting sources globally. Natural immunity here we come.
> 
> The only reason for any potential situation that hospitals may be overwhelmed would be due to the absolutely unacceptable ICU bed counts in Ontario and this country.
> 
> As of December 19, 2021 Ontario has 283 hospitalized Covid patience of which 159 are in ICU due to Covid related illness. Ontario currently has 2,350 ICU beds province wide with a population of 14,789,778,... F'n pathetic! This is after they added the extra 350 ICU beds last spring,... talk about perpetually ill-prepared. This is our Social Health Care at work with the tax dollar contribution from Canadians?,... dismal at best.
> 
> Keep in mind when looking at these data charts that Canada has approximately 22.83 ICU beds per 100,000 population. From the data I could find this equates to approximately 8,734 ICU beds for the entire country of 38,246,108 people.Don't know why Canada wasn't included in the list. One of the attached PDF's from 2015 explains how ICU numbers in Canada were identified as inadequate,... which ultimately proved true with the arrival of Covid-19. A warning that fell on the deaf ears of our politicians and health care sector.
> ICU Beds by Country
> View attachment 393770
> View attachment 393771
> View attachment 393772
> 
> 
> Furthermore, Canada sits in position 29 out of 38 countries with regards to hospital beds per 1,000 people. As of December 2019 that number was 2.52 beds per 1,000. Compare that to #1 ranked Japan having 12.84 hospital beds per 1,000 people. Hospital Beds by Country
> View attachment 393773
> View attachment 393774
> View attachment 393775
> 
> 
> 
> When I hear Canadians boast about what a great social health care system we have I sometimes want to clunk them on the cranium with a #20 sized cast iron skillet,"😣"🍳. I'm just wondering when Canadian's are going to band together and get pissed off enough to demand change and have the government deliver the goods that every tax paying citizen of this country deserves.


Damn all that typing just to prove that your still too stupid to understand what the vaccines are meant to accomplish. 

It’s sad at this point really but hilarious watching you flail around all high and mighty like believing in your fringe nut bag garbage while still lacking a basic understanding even my 9 year old son can explain clearly.


----------



## zztomato

Midnight Rider said:


> Well,... continue to believe that somehow you are less likely to contract the virus than people living in Florida or anywhere else in the world. The two or three injections you may have taken obviously have been proven not be the suit of armour the experts anticipated to be,... I know,... it is disappointing but none the less our reality.
> 
> The UK is also having a Covid wave with 70% of new cases being the Omicron variant,... could be worse,... it could have been Delta. The United Kingdom vaccination data show 90% first dose, 82% second dose and 49% booster dose,... and still the cases rise,... go figure. Looks like it's time to implement the Monoclonal Antibodies Therapy and Therapeutic approach worldwide,... or would this be to logical of a direction to move in?
> 
> I stated in my last post that as of Dec.17, 2021 over the last 7 days Covid deaths in Florida per 100,000 people was _*0.12*._
> For the same 7 day time period in Ontario the Covid death rate per 100,000 people was _*0.30*_.
> 
> I'm fairly certain Covid continues to wave around Canada and not just the US,... same for Omicron,... which will be the welcomed lesser of the two evils and by the looks of things much less severe. Out with the old,... in with the new,... and the beginning of the pandemic end. Yes, I am currently that confident based on the overall data and number death counts from several reporting sources globally. Natural immunity here we come.
> 
> The only reason for any potential situation that hospitals may be overwhelmed would be due to the absolutely unacceptable ICU bed counts in Ontario and this country.
> 
> As of December 19, 2021 Ontario has 283 hospitalized Covid patience of which 159 are in ICU due to Covid related illness. Ontario currently has 2,350 ICU beds province wide with a population of 14,789,778,... F'n pathetic! This is after they added the extra 350 ICU beds last spring,... talk about perpetually ill-prepared. This is our Social Health Care at work with the tax dollar contribution from Canadians?,... dismal at best.
> 
> Keep in mind when looking at these data charts that Canada has approximately 22.83 ICU beds per 100,000 population. From the data I could find this equates to approximately 8,734 ICU beds for the entire country of 38,246,108 people.Don't know why Canada wasn't included in the list. One of the attached PDF's from 2015 explains how ICU numbers in Canada were identified as inadequate,... which ultimately proved true with the arrival of Covid-19. A warning that fell on the deaf ears of our politicians and health care sector.
> ICU Beds by Country
> View attachment 393770
> View attachment 393771
> View attachment 393772
> 
> 
> Furthermore, Canada sits in position 29 out of 38 countries with regards to hospital beds per 1,000 people. As of December 2019 that number was 2.52 beds per 1,000. Compare that to #1 ranked Japan having 12.84 hospital beds per 1,000 people. Hospital Beds by Country
> View attachment 393773
> View attachment 393774
> View attachment 393775
> 
> 
> 
> When I hear Canadians boast about what a great social health care system we have I sometimes want to clunk them on the cranium with a #20 sized cast iron skillet,"😣"🍳. I'm just wondering when Canadian's are going to band together and get pissed off enough to demand change and have the government deliver the goods that every tax paying citizen of this country deserves.


But you respect other people's right to make their own decisions wrt health, right?

🤦‍♂️


----------



## zztomato

tdotrob said:


> Damn all that typing just to prove that your still too stupid to understand what the vaccines are meant to accomplish.
> 
> It’s sad at this point really but hilarious watching you flail around all high and mighty like believing in your fringe nut bag garbage while still lacking a basic understanding even my 9 year old son can explain clearly.


Well, in fairness, he's clearly quite stressed and fearful. We all have our own coping mechanisms. Unfortunately, self awareness is only present in people who are self aware.


----------



## tomee2

Midnight Rider said:


> Well,... continue to believe that somehow you are less likely to contract the virus than people living in Florida or anywhere else in the world. The two or three injections you may have taken obviously have been proven not be the suit of armour the experts anticipated to be,... I know,... it is disappointing but none the less our reality.
> 
> The UK is also having a Covid wave with 70% of new cases being the Omicron variant,... could be worse,... it could have been Delta. The United Kingdom vaccination data show 90% first dose, 82% second dose and 49% booster dose,... and still the cases rise,... go figure. Looks like it's time to implement the Monoclonal Antibodies Therapy and Therapeutic approach worldwide,... or would this be to logical of a direction to move in?
> 
> I stated in my last post that as of Dec.17, 2021 over the last 7 days Covid deaths in Florida per 100,000 people was _*0.12*._
> For the same 7 day time period in Ontario the Covid death rate per 100,000 people was _*0.30*_.
> 
> I'm fairly certain Covid continues to wave around Canada and not just the US,... same for Omicron,... which will be the welcomed lesser of the two evils and by the looks of things much less severe. Out with the old,... in with the new,... and the beginning of the pandemic end. Yes, I am currently that confident based on the overall data and number death counts from several reporting sources globally. Natural immunity here we come.
> 
> The only reason for any potential situation that hospitals may be overwhelmed would be due to the absolutely unacceptable ICU bed counts in Ontario and this country.
> 
> As of December 19, 2021 Ontario has 283 hospitalized Covid patience of which 159 are in ICU due to Covid related illness. Ontario currently has 2,350 ICU beds province wide with a population of 14,789,778,... F'n pathetic! This is after they added the extra 350 ICU beds last spring,... talk about perpetually ill-prepared. This is our Social Health Care at work with the tax dollar contribution from Canadians?,... dismal at best.
> 
> Keep in mind when looking at these data charts that Canada has approximately 22.83 ICU beds per 100,000 population. From the data I could find this equates to approximately 8,734 ICU beds for the entire country of 38,246,108 people.Don't know why Canada wasn't included in the list. One of the attached PDF's from 2015 explains how ICU numbers in Canada were identified as inadequate,... which ultimately proved true with the arrival of Covid-19. A warning that fell on the deaf ears of our politicians and health care sector.
> ICU Beds by Country
> View attachment 393770
> View attachment 393771
> View attachment 393772
> 
> 
> Furthermore, Canada sits in position 29 out of 38 countries with regards to hospital beds per 1,000 people. As of December 2019 that number was 2.52 beds per 1,000. Compare that to #1 ranked Japan having 12.84 hospital beds per 1,000 people. Hospital Beds by Country
> View attachment 393773
> View attachment 393774
> View attachment 393775
> 
> 
> 
> When I hear Canadians boast about what a great social health care system we have I sometimes want to clunk them on the cranium with a #20 sized cast iron skillet,"😣"🍳. I'm just wondering when Canadian's are going to band together and get pissed off enough to demand change and have the government deliver the goods that every tax paying citizen of this country deserves.


Your Covid death stats are completely wrong. Deaths per living person is not stat used with contagious diseases. Cancers, yes. 

The majority of people in the ICUs are unvaccinated and pretty much the only people on ventilators are unvaccinated people. Think about that. Only the seriously ill are unvaccinated. How can you argue against getting a vaccine?


----------



## ZeroGravity

What a shit show the Ontario vaccine booking portal is. Once again, the only real lesson here is keep trying to game the system because they are bound to screw it up and if you "play by the rules" you will be out of luck.

From a Reddit post:
"Last night around 10pm the Ontario booking system allowed 18+ to start booking and then turned it back to 50+ around midnight and reopened it again at 6am and I was able book. Hopefully there’s still appointments left by 8am when they told everyone it’ll be open.... "

And another thing, why do I have to wait in the same front end queue to download my certificate as everyone desperately trying to book a shot. Over an hour wait to download a certificate, assuming it doesn't crash once I get there. It's not that hard to shape traffic.


----------



## Mooh

Imgrund COVID-19 Dashboard


Specializing in effective reproduction values (R numbers) for COVID-19 across Ontario, Canada, and the world. Imgrund's COVID-19 Dashboard also breaks down Ontario's numbers further at the school and public health unit level.




www.imgrund.ca





Has anyone posted this yet? I find it informative.


----------



## ZeroGravity

Mooh said:


> Imgrund COVID-19 Dashboard
> 
> 
> Specializing in effective reproduction values (R numbers) for COVID-19 across Ontario, Canada, and the world. Imgrund's COVID-19 Dashboard also breaks down Ontario's numbers further at the school and public health unit level.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.imgrund.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has anyone posted this yet? I find it informative.


The Ottawa Public Health Dashboard has all the statistics any numbers-nerd would ever want too, although specific to the Ottawa region.









Daily COVID-19 Dashboard







www.ottawapublichealth.ca


----------



## Milkman

Just get the shot.


----------



## SWLABR

SWLABR said:


> Hot off the presses... delayed till March 2022. And, we already do a pre-screen on an app based survey each morning. Now someone (likely me) will have to take the temperature of EVERYONE entering the building. I hope they get me one of those thermo-guns I just aim at peoples heads!
> 
> Me: "Oh nooooooo! They sent _rectal_ thermometers!"





Jim DaddyO said:


> Don't pass up a good opportunity. Get yourself a huge box marked "Rectal thermometers" parked in a conspicuous spot and stand at the door with a smile on your face.


I set myself up perfectly last Friday. Sent an email blast: "*Attn- All Employees- Be advised starting Monday anyone entering the building will require a mandatory temperature check*". 

Well, this morning I got a bunch of wooden stir sticks, and put them in a box marked "*Rectal Thermometers*". I had the Thermo-Gun in my jacket pocket, then I walked up to a group of employees hanging around the front door waiting to get in. One of them says "_So, we doing this or what?!?!_" And I say "Yep", then gave the box a shake. The look one their faces was worth the set-up.


----------



## Milkman

SWLABR said:


> I set myself up perfectly last Friday. Sent an email blast: "*Attn- All Employees- Be advised starting Monday anyone entering the building will require a mandatory temperature check*".
> 
> Well, this morning I got a bunch of wooden stir sticks, and put them in a box marked "*Rectal Thermometers*". I had the Thermo-Gun in my jacket pocket, then I walked up to a group of employees hanging around the front door waiting to get in. One of them says "_So, we doing this or what?!?!_" And I say "Yep", then gave the box a shake. The look one their faces was worth the set-up.


Actually, it's the look on their feces that you need to consider.


----------



## SWLABR

Milkman said:


> Actually, it's the look on their feces that you need to consider.


Too far dude... even I won't go to those lengths for a laugh!! ha, ha...


----------



## tomee2

ZeroGravity said:


> What a shit show the Ontario vaccine booking portal is. Once again, the only real lesson here is keep trying to game the system because they are bound to screw it up and if you "play by the rules" you will be out of luck.
> 
> From a Reddit post:
> "Last night around 10pm the Ontario booking system allowed 18+ to start booking and then turned it back to 50+ around midnight and reopened it again at 6am and I was able book. Hopefully there’s still appointments left by 8am when they told everyone it’ll be open.... "
> 
> And another thing, why do I have to wait in the same front end queue to download my certificate as everyone desperately trying to book a shot. Over an hour wait to download a certificate, assuming it doesn't crash once I get there. It's not that hard to shape traffic.


I think I'm more likely to catch a breakthrough infection then actually get a booster at this point.
They were doing 50,000+ people per day in ON back in May to July, so unless they reproduce the same delivery system with large mass clinics operating, 3rd doses will lag significantly.


----------



## colchar

tomee2 said:


> Your Covid death stats are completely wrong. Deaths per living person is not stat used with contagious diseases. Cancers, yes.
> 
> The majority of people in the ICUs are unvaccinated and pretty much the only people on ventilators are unvaccinated people. Think about that. Only the seriously ill are unvaccinated. How can you argue against getting a vaccine?



Because FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## colchar

tomee2 said:


> I think I'm more likely to catch a breakthrough infection then actually get a booster at this point.



I am booked for a booster in early January, but my pharmacy said they were getting more doses on Saturday and they would try to hold one for me until today. I have no idea if they did but they also offer tests so I will have to head over there today anyway because I have a pounding headache, low grade fever, aches, a runny nose, etc. Probably a cold, but that also seems to be how the virus manifests itself in the fully vaccinated so who knows?


----------



## marcos

Quebec goverment just announced schools closing starting tomorrow morning, bars,cinemas, clubs, casinos and gyms closing as of tonight and we can expect our max limit of 10 people inside for Xmas get togethers to be canned i suspect. Looks pretty much like last year at this time. This shit show sucks. !!!!!


----------



## tomee2

marcos said:


> Quebec goverment just announced schools closing starting tomorrow morning, bars and clubs, casinos and gyms closing as of tonight and we can expect our max limit of 10 people inside for Xmas get togethers to be canned i suspect. Looks pretty much like last year at this time. This shit show sucks. !!!!!


Ya, it's too bad because everything was going along so nicely in Oct with very few cases and Ottawa even went weeks between any covid related deaths.


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> Just get the shot.


Do that and they are no longer special.


----------



## marcos

tomee2 said:


> Ya, it's too bad because everything was going along so nicely in Oct with very few cases and Ottawa even went weeks between any covid related deaths.


Yep, when we thought we had this beat. Not sure how much more of this crap people can take.


----------



## allthumbs56

SWLABR said:


> I hope they get me one of those thermo-guns I just aim at peoples heads!


Sounds kinda "Baldwinesque" 😕


----------



## tomee2

allthumbs56 said:


> Do that and they are no longer special.


Hadn't thought of that.. I suppose that's a possible main factor for some people. And if they are publicly outspoken about it, on tic tock or whatever, there's no way they'll ever get a shot. 
My wife says social media has £ucked up the world. She's right if course.


----------



## Paul Running

The + numbers are running away now in ON and PQ.


----------



## allthumbs56

tomee2 said:


> I think I'm more likely to catch a breakthrough infection then actually get a booster at this point.
> They were doing 50,000+ people per day in ON back in May to July, so unless they reproduce the same delivery system with large mass clinics operating, 3rd doses will lag significantly.


Same boat. I'm booked for January 10th. Two weeks for it to become effective. Means I have to avoid Omicron for the next five weeks. Based on what I'm hearing I'm not sure I like those odds. 😕


----------



## Milkman

My wife and I just put the lambs blood over our door.

Anybody who wants to suck up this pestilence is on their own.


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> Same boat. I'm booked for January 10th. Two weeks for it to become effective. Means I have to avoid Omicron for the next five weeks. Based on what I'm hearing I'm not sure I like those odds. 😕


I know that feeling. I tried to get mine before I went to Nashville a couple of weeks ago. One or two days too soon, appointment cancelled automatically. Then I made another a week later and they accepted that only to turn me away when I drove there.

Today we both got jabbed. Third time's a charm I guess. We'll still be careful but at least our immunities will grow day by day over the next couple of weeks.


----------



## Wardo

I just got off the phone with him; there are no appointments available.

they said to call back in case there’s a cancellation somewhere.


----------



## colchar

Has anyone heard anything about the efficacy of the vaccines against this new Decepticon variant? Is one better than the other?

And does the order of your initial two doses play into things? I had Pfizer first and Moderna second, does it matter which I get for my third dose? I can get Pfizer today (assuming my pharmacy managed to keep a dose for me) or Moderna at work on Wednesday. Not sure which to get, or if this is a get the first one available situation.


----------



## Milkman

Wardo said:


> I just got off the phone with him; there are no appointments available.
> 
> they said to call back in case there’s a cancellation somewhere.


They aren't making it easy to do the right thing.

I think we need a guy like Edward Needlehands walking through crowds vaccinating people.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Boosters for us on Jan 12. It will be Pfizer, that's all they have been giving in this area throughout. No cases so far in Wawa. A couple of the mining camps about an hour or so out of town had outbreaks I think, but they locked them down right away and dealt with it.


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> They aren't making it easy to do the right thing.


Yup - it's like nothing has been learned. 10 years from now if there's another pandemic we'll be caught just as flat-footed.


----------



## Wardo

But they have 100 billion dollars to give away for climate initiatives in developing countries which will use the money for something else.


----------



## allthumbs56

Wardo said:


> But they have 100 billion dollars to give away for climate initiatives in developing countries which will use the money for something else.


You probably mean a *credit card* with a 100 billion dollar spending limit - no self-respecting Marxist government uses cash dollars anymore. 😕 .


----------



## tomee2

colchar said:


> Has anyone heard anything about the efficacy of the vaccines against this new Decepticon variant? Is one better than the other?
> 
> And does the order of your initial two doses play into things? I had Pfizer first and Moderna second, does it matter which I get for my third dose? I can get Pfizer today (assuming my pharmacy managed to keep a dose for me) or Moderna at work on Wednesday. Not sure which to get, or if this is a get the first one available situation.


Edit...scratch that.... both pfizer and moderna reporyed boosted immunity after a 3rd dose, but in articles just submitted but not yet published. See NIH blog last week, and moderna press release yesterday.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

In spite of socialised medicine (sarcasm) the hospitalization and death rates per million is much lower in the UK and Canada as compared to the USA.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Wardo said:


> But they have 100 billion dollars to give away for climate initiatives in developing countries which will use the money for something else.


Like trillions of dollars to the military industrial complex maybe? (of course we don't have those industries in Canada giving kick backs to candidates for their cooperation as much)


----------



## tomee2

Jim DaddyO said:


> In spite of socialised medicine (sarcasm) the hospitalization and death rates per million is much lower in the UK and Canada as compared to the USA.


Or Japan, a highly socialized country with the most ICU beds per person and incredibly low rates of covid right now. 
Could it be that being conscientious of others around you, a hallmark of Japanese culture, actually works?


----------



## zztomato

tomee2 said:


> Could it be that being conscientious of others around you, a hallmark of Japanese culture, actually works?


Oh yeah, but are they _free_?


----------



## colchar

According to my pharmacist research shows that it is best to get the same booster as your second dose, so I refused the Pfizer shot and will get Moderna at work on Wednesday.


----------



## Choo5440

ugh, this booster rollout is one giant snafu. should have kept going in stages. At this rate, all the younger people are more likely to snap up appointments and doses from older Ontarians and other otherwise compromised/vulnerable folks.

Also can't believe Ford had to ....put out a public call...for health care workers to volunteer to give jabs. When hospital units are struggling to find staff as is. 😒


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Choo5440 said:


> Also can't believe Ford had to ....put out a public call...for health care workers to volunteer to give jabs. When hospital units are struggling to find staff as is.


It's a decades old problem. Health care workers can make more money elsewhere, Ontario refuses to pay competative wages, so if they are able, they move.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

double post


----------



## Doug Gifford

My wife just spent an hour on the computer exploring and we now have an appointment for a booster in the north end of Kingston in two days -- Wednesday about noon.


----------



## Wardo

Best I could do in toronto area is feb 19.


----------



## colchar

Wardo said:


> Best I could do in toronto area is feb 19.



I have one booked for January 6th, but am getting mine at a clinic for staff and students at work so you can have my January 6th appointment.

My pharmacy has shots available if you want to drive out to Brampton.


----------



## Wardo

colchar said:


> I have one booked for January 6th, but am getting mine at a clinic for staff and students at work so you can have my January 6th appointment.
> 
> My pharmacy has shots available if you want to drive out to Brampton.


Are the appointments transferable like that ?


----------



## colchar

Wardo said:


> Are the appointments transferable like that ?



I doubt it. Check into it though as I haven't canceled it yet. It is for January 6th in The Bay at Woodbine Centre.

Or as I said, my local pharmacy has vaccines so you could try to get an appointment with them here in Brampton.


----------



## tomee2

I tried last week but I wasn't at 6 months yet so NO. Then they changed that to 3 months and now anyone over 18... I'm not getting anything showing up when I try to book.


----------



## Milkman

Doug Gifford said:


> My wife just spent an hour on the computer exploring and we now have an appointment for a booster in the north end of Kingston in two days -- Wednesday about noon.


Good for her, and good for you.

I've been sort of disappointed in the connection between the management of this virus and the technology / internet skills one seems to need to protect the health of their families.

I'm probably somewhere in the middle when it comes to computer stuff, and I found it challenging to arrange all of our shots. I'm still being told to wait to make an appointment for my Daughter's booster. She's 30. The Health Unit site says come back after January 6. That's just to make the appointment, not to get the shot. Why the F$%k can't we make her appointment? I get that we can get her shot until sometime in early January, but at least let us set a date.

What about older folks or people who simply aren't into the internet or who lack computer skills?

Yes, there are other ways, but I guess I'm just feeling like they aren't making it easy to do the right thing.


----------



## mhammer

Milkman said:


> Why the F$%k can't we make her appointment? I get that we can get her shot until sometime in early January, but at least let us set a date.
> 
> What about older folks or people who simply aren't into the internet or who lack computer skills?
> 
> Yes, there are other ways, but I guess I'm just feeling like they aren't making it easy to do the right thing.


When I used to work on government-wide electronically-administered surveys I was known for mumbling just loud enough to be heard by all in the meetings "Paper is better". This was generally in response to discussions about problems we were having with software compatibility, people attempting something on a handheld device whose layout was really devised for a 24" monitor, and so on. Technology can make *some* things easier or more efficient for some people. The mistake is in thinking that it makes *everything* better for *everybody*. But once a business or public organization embarks on e-whatever - usually under the assumption that it will reduce costs and maximize access and efficiency - they abandon all other approaches. It's like arriving at a construction job site with only one tool, without considering that the task may require other tools as well, because "that's one helluva good prybar!".

Technology aside, we tend to forget (generally because no one on the other end ever says) that promises of vaccine, syringe, and needle delivery are merely promises, whether from the manufacturer or central respository for one's region/province, not supplies _in hand_, or that things are up in the air about the speed of initial uptake, or scheduling locations and people to administer vaccine, etc. WE may think "Why not just have pharmacists do it?" but the pharmacists themselves are saying "HEY! I'm trying to serve my usual customers who need their medication for this and that, so I can offer a few brief appointments for shots here and there, but I cannot handle walk-ins and still do what my actual job requires". 

In short, we never get told, or think much, about the operational details that can make initiatives more tentative than guaranteed. As for Jan. 6, as of today that's just 16 days away. I suspect the people of Abbotsford, BC, or Mayfield KY, can only in their wildest dreams imagine that their problems would be addressed in 16 days.


----------



## Milkman

mhammer said:


> In short, we never get told, or think much, about the operational details that can make initiatives more tentative than guaranteed. As for Jan. 6, as of today that's just 16 days away. I suspect the people of Abbotsford, BC, or Mayfield KY, can only in their wildest dreams imagine that their problems would be addressed in 16 days.


I wouldn't expect a quick solution if I was dealing with a crisis that was two or three weeks old, but I'm not. I'm dealing with something that has been going on for two years and which could have been over long ago were our priorities more focused on health and less on commerce and social activities.

I get that we can't force people to take their shots, but I'm of the opinion that it should be MUCH easier for those of us who are eager to be a part of the solution instead of part of the problem.


----------



## ZeroGravity

IMO, it should have been one booking system for every provider as a single point of contact. If you are a pharmacy, and you want to provide online booking (as opposed to walk-in service) you get a provider number and access and you are put on the list. Simple and you have every provider in an NN km radius of your location, one booking per person so you aren't taking up space on multiple waitlists, cancellation notification if you can go on short notice, and one step record keeping (I know people who's record of first and second doses still aren't correct). Have a hyper-scaler like AWS or even Ticketmaster to build it for you so it doesn't crash.


----------



## allthumbs56

They've opened up some slots here in Niagara for mid-March. It's ludicrous that they opened up the bookings for just about everyone and then urged us to "hurry, hurry, hurry!". WTF are they smoking?


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## mhammer

Just keep in mind that, in the face of staffing shortages in the health professions, this sudden demand for people to provide boosters requires that one locate and recruit people who are appropriately knowledgeable and skilled about, administering injections, and are willing to be exposed to hundreds of people each day who, by definition, _have not had their shot yet_. That's only slightly less difficult than recruiting porters to accompany you beyond the big gates to where King Kong is reputed to live.


----------



## Guitar101

Milkman said:


> Good for her, and good for you.
> 
> I've been sort of disappointed in the connection between the management of this virus and the technology / internet skills one seems to need to protect the health of their families.
> 
> I'm probably somewhere in the middle when it comes to computer stuff, and I found it challenging to arrange all of our shots. I'm still being told to wait to make an appointment for my Daughter's booster. She's 30. The Health Unit site says come back after January 6. That's just to make the appointment, not to get the shot. Why the F$%k can't we make her appointment? I get that we can get her shot until sometime in early January, but at least let us set a date.
> 
> What about older folks or people who simply aren't into the internet or who lack computer skills?
> 
> Yes, there are other ways, but I guess I'm just feeling like they aren't making it easy to do the right thing.











PharmaChoice Pharmacies - Prescriptions, Health Products & Support


PharmaChoice has hundreds of pharmacies located throughout Canada. Patients and customers alike can fill prescriptions, access health advice from trusted pharmacists, save on everyday products, and so much more! Contact us today for more information.




www.pharmachoice.com




I had good luck booking on the Pharma Choice website a few weeks ago and both my wife and I have gotten our boosters. You can check for a Pharma Choice pharmacy in your town and see if you can book your daughters appointment.
I'm not sure what it's like now as things have changed but it's worth a look.


----------



## Milkman

Guitar101 said:


> PharmaChoice Pharmacies - Prescriptions, Health Products & Support
> 
> 
> PharmaChoice has hundreds of pharmacies located throughout Canada. Patients and customers alike can fill prescriptions, access health advice from trusted pharmacists, save on everyday products, and so much more! Contact us today for more information.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.pharmachoice.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had good luck booking on the Pharma Choice website a few weeks ago and both my wife and I have gotten our boosters. You can check for a Pharma Choice pharmacy in your town and see if you can book your daughters appointment.
> I'm not sure what it's like now as things have changed but it's worth a look.


I just checked.

I'd have to drive to Etobicoke.

I guess we'll just have to wait until after X-mas for her.


----------



## mhammer

A little bit of Omicron levity to lighten the mood...









Local man who hasn’t started Christmas shopping betting it all on Omicron lockdown


GUELPH, ON - While reportedly aware that he has only 7 shopping days until Christmas, local man Thomas Yeates is reportedly confident that a full province-wide Omicron lockdown will rescue him from any gift-giving obligations.




www.thebeaverton.com


----------



## allthumbs56

Some interesting court interpretations regarding separated/divorced parents, their children, and vaccination:

Canadian divorce courts come down hard on anti-vaccine parents who deny COVID-19 pandemic | National Post


----------



## Midnight Rider

zztomato said:


> But you respect other people's right to make their own decisions wrt health, right?
> 
> 🤦‍♂️


Affirmative. I never suggested to anyone to get or not get the vaccine. We all weighed the risks against the benefits and made our choices,... the way it should always be. My decision was made based on a severe adverse reaction to a medication in the past that came within a hair of ending my life,... so yeah, I tend to really dig in to try and find the truth about a substance before letting it enter into my body.

I've decided to rely on my Immune system to see me through this pandemic,... and so far I'm one for one having recovered from the Covid virus. I consider myself vaccinated.

I'm not anti-vaccine and all my children were fully vaccinated with all required vaccinations when they were young. They are all adults now and have made their own decision to have the Covid-19 shot. That is their choice and I respect it.

Are they pleased to learn that they can now still contract the virus?,... no. Are all of them going to get the booster,...no.

What I post here is fact from easily accessible information. The vaccines have shown they are not meeting the original levels of protection as projected. I'm saying they don't offer any protection,... just not the levels we all expected as stated by health officials. So, in turn people are losing faith in them. This is fact and not fabricated oratory.

The current vaccines are estimated to have 33% protection against the Omicron variant and still governments and health officials push for their populations for getting a 3rd dose,... and perhaps 4th if they deem it necessary. It's beginning to echo the definition of lunacy to my ears.

Perhaps at this point they should seriously think of offering Monoclonal Antibody Therapy and other therapeutic approaches which may be just as or more effective in controlling severe illness,... _*before patients enter into a severe or critical state of illness! *_ You know, like the Monoclonal Antibody Therapy treatment centres they have established in various states throughout the US to prevent people with mild to moderate cases of Covid from having to be addmited into a hospital for critical care treatment. Health Canada is still pussy footing around to determine if this is the way to go when other countries have already proven that,... it is effective!

On a more positive note, I heard an interview yesterday on a local radio station with Dr. Chil-Yong Kang, a professor in the microbiology and immunology departments at Western University in Ontario. It seems he and his team are creating a vaccine that could potentially give as much a two year time period of protection without boosters against the virus. Now, something like this ,_if proven safe and effective_, could _potentially_ sway me to present my limbs for injection.This will be interesting to follow and see how this research advances into the following months,... or if we're lucky we won't need it at all.

Here's a link to a report from today on what Dr.Chil-Yong Kang had to say. I know the reporters parents and she is a straight up individual,... one of a dwindling number of good journalists in the mainstream.
Western University researchers developing rVSV COVID-19 vaccine - London | Globalnews.ca


----------



## Midnight Rider

tdotrob said:


> Damn all that typing just to prove that your still too stupid to understand what the vaccines are meant to accomplish.
> 
> It’s sad at this point really but hilarious watching you flail around all high and mighty like believing in your fringe nut bag garbage while still lacking a basic understanding even my 9 year old son can explain clearly.


I wasn't thinking of you when I posted the information and links as I knew there was a high probability that you would not comprehend the information in or associated to the links. It appears I struck a sensitive nerve,... hope you're doing OK.

Just to show there are no hard feelings I'll send you one of these for Christmas,... what size would you be interested in?
I have a connection with Gypsy 'The Vaccine' Queen for a heroine of a deal,... Tommy?,...can you hear me?























Happy Holidays!


----------



## laristotle

Midnight Rider said:


> Health Canada is still pussy footing around to determine if this is the way to go when other countries have already proven that,... it is effective!











Sabrina Maddeaux: Scrambling Canadians should be furious booster shots were dismissed for months


What we’re dealing with here hews much closer to public health malpractice




nationalpost.com




_It seems little to nothing was learned from the pandemic’s first four waves. Chief among these failed lessons is the fact Canada isn’t exceptional. Science that’s true in other countries is also true here. We aren’t some Narnia-esque land of superior immunity, better health care, and Dudley Do-Rights. This is why it’s near inexplicable that Canada didn’t offer the majority of its population boosters when just about every other peer country was doing so.

The organizations and officials that refused to supply them and promoted so-called caution to the point of recklessness will now fall back on the old refrain “science evolves.” Sometimes, it does. But what we’re dealing with here hews much closer to public health malpractice._


----------



## FatStrat2

I understand that South Africa has found the Omicron variant so weak and the symptoms so mild, they've stopped contact tracing and quarantining of those who've contracted that specific type.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Some cautiously optimistic observations in South Africa.

Case drop may show South Africa's Omicron peak has passed


----------



## tomee2

Midnight Rider said:


> Affirmative. I never suggested to anyone to get or not get the vaccine. We all weighed the risks against the benefits and made our choices,... the way it should always be. My decision was made based on a severe adverse reaction to a medication in the past that came within a hair of ending my life,... so yeah, I tend to really dig in to try and find the truth about a substance before letting it enter into my body.
> 
> I've decided to rely on my Immune system to see me through this pandemic,... and so far I'm one for one having recovered from the Covid virus. I consider myself vaccinated.
> 
> I'm not anti-vaccine and all my children were fully vaccinated with all required vaccinations when they were young. They are all adults now and have made their own decision to have the Covid-19 shot. That is their choice and I respect it.
> 
> Are they pleased to learn that they can now still contract the virus?,... no. Are all of them going to get the booster,...no.
> 
> What I post here is fact from easily accessible information. The vaccines have shown they are not meeting the original levels of protection as projected. I'm saying they don't offer any protection,... just not the levels we all expected as stated by health officials. So, in turn people are losing faith in them. This is fact and not fabricated oratory.
> 
> The current vaccines are estimated to have 33% protection against the Omicron variant and still governments and health officials push for their populations for getting a 3rd dose,... and perhaps 4th if they deem it necessary. It's beginning to echo the definition of lunacy to my ears.
> 
> Perhaps at this point they should seriously think of offering Monoclonal Antibody Therapy and other therapeutic approaches which may be just as or more effective in controlling severe illness,... _*before patients enter into a severe or critical state of illness! *_ You know, like the Monoclonal Antibody Therapy treatment centres they have established in various states throughout the US to prevent people with mild to moderate cases of Covid from having to be addmited into a hospital for critical care treatment. Health Canada is still pussy footing around to determine if this is the way to go when other countries have already proven that,... it is effective!
> 
> On a more positive note, I heard an interview yesterday on a local radio station with Dr. Chil-Yong Kang, a professor in the microbiology and immunology departments at Western University in Ontario. It seems he and his team are creating a vaccine that could potentially give as much a two year time period of protection without boosters against the virus. Now, something like this ,_if proven safe and effective_, could _potentially_ sway me to present my limbs for injection.This will be interesting to follow and see how this research advances into the following months,... or if we're lucky we won't need it at all.
> 
> Here's a link to a report from today on what Dr.Chil-Yong Kang had to say. I know the reporters parents and she is a straight up individual,... one of a dwindling number of good journalists in the mainstream.
> Western University researchers developing rVSV COVID-19 vaccine - London | Globalnews.ca



Given the choice between getting a disease then being treated by a strange concoction of chemicals after I get very sick, or taking a strange concoction of chemicals to prevent me getting the disease or getting very ill from it, I don't understand the rationale for the first choice.


----------



## allthumbs56

Midnight Rider said:


> On a more positive note, I heard an interview yesterday on a local radio station with Dr. Chil-Yong Kang, a professor in the microbiology and immunology departments at Western University in Ontario. It seems he and his team are creating a vaccine that could potentially give as much a two year time period of protection without boosters against the virus. Now, something like this ,_if proven safe and effective_, *could potentially sway me to present my limbs for injection*.This will be interesting to follow and see how this research advances into the following months,... or if we're lucky we won't need it at all.
> 
> Here's a link to a report from today on what Dr.Chil-Yong Kang had to say. I know the reporters parents and she is a straight up individual,... one of a dwindling number of good journalists in the mainstream.
> Western University researchers developing rVSV COVID-19 vaccine - London | Globalnews.ca


Billions of people have received the mRNA vaccines - they have proven "safe and effective" to all but a select handful. Do you honestly think you'd buy this new one within any useful timeframe?


----------



## zztomato

Midnight Rider said:


> I never suggested to anyone to get or not get the vaccine.


Bullshit.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Midnight Rider said:


> My decision was made based on a severe adverse reaction to a medication in the past that came within a hair of ending my life,... so yeah, I tend to really dig in to try and find the truth about a substance before letting it enter into my body.


That is quite the decision, but yours to make. 



Midnight Rider said:


> Perhaps at this point they should seriously think of offering Monoclonal Antibody Therapy and other therapeutic approaches


Would you refuse that too based on your previous statement? Do you know what is in either of them that would or would not give you a "severe adverse reaction"?


----------



## Doug Gifford

Doug Gifford said:


> My wife just spent an hour on the computer exploring and we now have an appointment for a booster in the north end of Kingston in two days -- Wednesday about noon.


Got there about fifteen minutes early. They took me immediately and I was out by noon. Everyone was cheery and friendly. When I got home, my vaccination certificate was already in my email in-box.


----------



## Choo5440

Just something I'm hearing - there's apparently a (relative) shortage of pfizer shots in Ontario, so more sites will be administering moderna.
And a couple of FYI's based on questions I've gotten from friends

there has been a blanket extension on both pfizer and moderna expirations - 3 months were added to both as long as they were kept in proper cold storage. A bottle saying expires Oct 2021 is actually good until end of month Jan, 2022.
the moderna booster dosage is variable based on your age/previous vaccines received. if a person is deemed 'at risk' (based on age, immunocompromised, etc) then a full dose is given. if a person is not, a half dose is given.

and as always, happy to answer questions


----------



## zztomato

Choo5440 said:


> Just something I'm hearing - there's apparently a (relative) shortage of pfizer shots in Ontario, so more sites will be administering moderna.
> And a couple of FYI's based on questions I've gotten from friends
> 
> there has been a blanket extension on both pfizer and moderna expirations - 3 months were added to both as long as they were kept in proper cold storage. A bottle saying expires Oct 2021 is actually good until end of month Jan, 2022.
> the moderna booster dosage is variable based on your age/previous vaccines received. if a person is deemed 'at risk' (based on age, immunocompromised, etc) then a full dose is given. if a person is not, a half dose is given.
> 
> and as always, happy to answer questions


That's what I always tell my wife when she's about to throw away expired food; "best before but still pretty good after"..... well, until it makes you sick.


----------



## Choo5440

Ha, Yup


zztomato said:


> That's what I always tell my wife when she's about to throw away expired food; "best before but still pretty good after"..... well, until it makes you sick.


also - calculation for months is not based on 30 days/month, it's 28 days/month. So that's why 6 months was 168 days, and 3 months is 84 days vs 180 days/90 days respectively.


----------



## allthumbs56

Choo5440 said:


> Just something I'm hearing - there's apparently a (relative) shortage of pfizer shots in Ontario, so more sites will be administering moderna.
> And a couple of FYI's based on questions I've gotten from friends
> 
> there has been a blanket extension on both pfizer and moderna expirations - 3 months were added to both as long as they were kept in proper cold storage. A bottle saying expires Oct 2021 is actually good until end of month Jan, 2022.
> the moderna booster dosage is variable based on your age/previous vaccines received. if a person is deemed 'at risk' (based on age, immunocompromised, etc) then a full dose is given. if a person is not, a half dose is given.
> 
> and as always, happy to answer questions


It would appear that they have learned little - we should have been ramping up for the worst possibilities instead of hoping it was over, I guess. The response to Omicron so far does not give me great comfort for if/when the next pandemic comes calling.


----------



## pat6969

It's pretty much mutated itself into a common flu. Been almost 2 years. If half the planet isn't wiped out already, it's not going to be.


----------



## Eric Reesor

pat6969 said:


> It's pretty much mutated itself into a common flu. Been almost 2 years. If half the planet isn't wiped out already, it's not going to be.


Hope that it does not then mutate into a more deadly iteration. Here is a theory as to why it might not and instead mutate to less deadly forms.

If mutations tend to become too deadly to a host then the direction of the variation spells death for the virus. It could be that the new variant though more infectious is not quite as deadly as the previous variant which it replaces by shear brute force of numbers which are greater because of greater survival of host organisms (in this case human hosts). Evolution works skewed to preserve existence of new genetic material.
If this is the case then the new variant becomes dominant and can create herd immunity to older variants as an evolutionary function of dominance. Here is hoping for Covid-19 based viral rna that exposure to a new variant creates a higher level of immunity to the older more deadly variants. Only time and good statistical science will reveal the truth if this is the case.

Seems to make sense from a Darwinian point of view.


----------



## mhammer

pat6969 said:


> It's pretty much mutated itself into a common flu. Been almost 2 years. If half the planet isn't wiped out already, it's not going to be.


1) Those variants that previously captured our attention and resources still exist. It's not like fashion or magazine stands where the "new issue" completely displaces the previous one.

2) Whatever Delta mutated from was also not quite as nasty as Delta. There is nothing that prevents Omicron from mutating into something worse, _*especially*_ if it is replicating in lots and lots of people. The mutations that become effective variants happen when a virus replicates imperfectly, and the more it is replicating in more people, the greater the likelihood of that happening. The only thing to prevent it from mutating into something worse is for people everywhere taking the necessary steps to a) be as immune to it as possible, and able to kill whatever they are infected with, b) have as few people to catch it from as possible, and c) take those preventative steps to NOT get infected from those people who DO have it. We did those things for polio, and that's why we aren't worried about our kids catching it.

That's not any sort of encouragement to panic. It IS encouragement to simply be thorough and consistent in applying the steps required and not ease up simply because people don't seem to be dropping dead around you in the streets. Think of it like a wildfire: it's not "out" until every ember is doused and every bit of combustible material is out of reach of anything that IS still glowing hot.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Looks like Australia has decided to flip the logical switch on with regards to how they will manage Covid. Hopefully this sets off a domino effect in other countries. The Australian people have been protesting intensely against the way their government and premiers have been overreacting and have successfully caught the ear of their politicians and health care officials. I suppose the Australian people had enough of being whisked away to the many Covid camps set up in their country along with severe lockdowns. 

I wouldn't expect the majority of Canadians to ever protest to that degree for sensible change,...unfortunately we are not built that way,... to a certain degree of liability.

The prime Minister speaks at the 2:00 mark:


----------



## Midnight Rider

tomee2 said:


> Given the choice between getting a disease then being treated by a strange concoction of chemicals after I get very sick, or taking a strange concoction of chemicals to prevent me getting the disease or getting very ill from it, I don't understand the rationale for the first choice.


It appears the vaccine is not preventing people from getting the virus,... double dosed and boosters. Unvaccinated individuals who test positive and show mild to moderate symptoms and then have Monoclonal Antibodies Therapy are showing recovery within a 48 hour period. Good to know if you have been double dosed and a booster and still contract the virus that there is Monoclonal Therapy to help you along if needed,... don't you think?


----------



## Midnight Rider

allthumbs56 said:


> Billions of people have received the mRNA vaccines - they have proven "safe and effective" to all but a select handful. Do you honestly think you'd buy this new one within any useful timeframe?


Depends on the final presentation and *thorough* clinical testing that the pharmaceutical companies bring to the table for everyone to review in order to make their own decision if it is suitable and safe enough to swallow or have injected into their blood stream.

You make your decision,... I'll make mine.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Jim DaddyO said:


> That is quite the decision, but yours to make.
> 
> 
> 
> Would you refuse that too based on your previous statement? Do you know what is in either of them that would or would not give you a "severe adverse reaction"?


That is a conversation I would have with my medical specialists I trust and who know my medical conditions. I would then, as I always do, compare that with my research on a the therapeutics recommenced and then decide whether it is worth the risk of following the suggested treatment plan.

Yes, I am aware of what therapeutic drugs are part of certain Monoclonal Antibodies Therapy cocktails,... anyone can find this information within minutes of searching for it.


----------



## Midnight Rider

zztomato said:


> Bullshit.


Pull up one of my posts showing I did.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Midnight Rider said:


> Good to know if you have been double dosed and a booster and still contract the virus that there is Monoclonal Therapy to help you along if needed,... don't you think?


No, it’s good to know that if you’re vaccinated, it’s HIGHLY unlikely you’ll need any sort of intervention at all.


----------



## HighNoon

Midnight Rider said:


> Looks like Australia has decided to flip the logical switch on with regards to how they will manage Covid. Hopefully this sets off a domino effect in other countries. The Australian people have been protesting intensely against the way their government and premiers have been overreacting and have successfully caught the ear of their politicians and health care officials. I suppose the Australian people had enough of being whisked away to the many Covid camps set up in their country along with severe lockdowns.
> 
> I wouldn't expect the majority of Canadians to ever protest to that degree for sensible change,...unfortunately we are not built that way,... to a certain degree of liability.
> 
> The prime Minister speaks at the 2:00 mark:


Early on in the pandemic Putin of Russia said (and I paraphrase), every country is on it's own. And that has proven correct so far. After watching the security parade at the Vancouver Olympics in 2010 shut down the city, and the following G20 in Toronto show of force gong show, the majority of Canadians have acted as expected.....quietly, submissively, compliantly, and following the 24hr gov't approved narrative.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

2manyGuitars said:


> No, it’s good to know that if you’re vaccinated, it’s HIGHLY unlikely you’ll need any sort of intervention at all.


That is what they are saying in Australia as well. Be responsible for yourself. Get vaxed. Get boosted. Go on with your life and we will let Omicron take it's own course. They are relying on the population keeping an eye out for increases in hospitalizations and expect that they will become more cautious on their own if it starts increasing. You know, like adults when there is any dangerous situation about.

1 dead in Texas from Omicron. Unvaxed and with comorbities (unspecified yet). Vaxing and boosting won't stop the virus, but it could very well save your life, or in the least, save you from the harsher effects.


----------



## 1SweetRide

HighNoon said:


> Early on in the pandemic Putin of Russia said (and I paraphrase), every country is on it's own. And that has proven correct so far. After watching the security parade at the Vancouver Olympics in 2010 shut down the city, and the following G20 in Toronto show of force gong show, the majority of Canadians have acted as expected.....quietly, submissively, compliantly, and following the 24hr gov't approved narrative.


Government? I think you mean scientists and medical experts.


----------



## zztomato

Midnight Rider said:


> Pull up one of my posts showing I did.


Unsurprisingly, you also believe your own bullshit. Carry on.


----------



## HighNoon

1SweetRide said:


> Government? I think you mean scientists and medical experts.


Who do you think is making the decisions? The bureaucrats or the paid for staff. Same crowd control techniques as used in the events I mentioned, and now enhanced for your enjoyment. The passports are a real nice touch.....remember, there will never be passports and now there are. And I just love the you have to get the jab or you'll lose your job....what do you call that? I call it extortion. And who can forget get the jab so we can get to herd immunity. There's a sweet chestnut for ya'. After all is said and done and all the little spike proteins have gone to bed and are snoozing quietly, it will always be about control.


----------



## Wardo

HighNoon said:


> ..... it will always be about control.


Leaving aside the covid argument for a moment; yeah, it will always be about control. 

Covid is an "opportunity" that will assist a control agenda and it has been referred to as an opportunity by those seeking to further such an agenda whether it be through a great reset or a simpleton's desire and admiration for a "basic dictatorship."


----------



## keto

Anyone around here wants a booster same day, send me a PM. In SW Edm. Got ours tonight.


----------



## HighNoon

keto said:


> Anyone around here wants a booster same day, send me a PM. In SW Edm. Got ours tonight.


Supposed to be real cold tomorrow night......any chance of a jump for my car if I need it?


----------



## HighNoon

Wardo said:


> Leaving aside the covid argument for a moment; yeah, it will always be about control.
> 
> Covid is an "opportunity" that will assist a control agenda and it has been referred to as an opportunity by those seeking to further such an agenda whether it be through a great reset or a simpleton's desire and admiration for a "basic dictatorship."


Yeah, the fork in the road is fast approaching. In my more universal consciousness moments I can feel all the human wet hard drives, lapping up against the house. The asymmetric encryption vibrates through the septic system, fine tuning my cranial stimulation receptors....change memory, add memory, delete memory. I can't wait for the neural modulation app available in the spring. Who ever needs to leave their house again. Plug me in Honey!!!!


----------



## jb welder

Monoclonal costs 100 to 200 times more than a vaccine shot. 
Funny that all the ones that were complaining about the economic costs of covid restrictions are all in for relying on monoclonal instead of vaccines.


----------



## laristotle

This sure doesn't help much ..








Nursing shortage has frontline workers burned out


Her breaking point was watching so many people die of COVID -- with only nurses to witness their deaths.




torontosun.com




_“They’re leaving the profession. Some of them have retired early. But the majority have just left the bedside. They’ve gone to public health or clinics. Anything to get out of the hospital sector,” said Halupa, who has 23 years’ experience at a Toronto hospital.

“My department alone has lost 60 nurses,” she said. “COVID was kind of just the straw that broke the camel’s back for us.”

What is also broken is the health sector’s ability to attract new faces.

A survey of national job vacancies shows thousands of nursing jobs available — 47,000 — yet no one filling them.

According to Statistics Canada there were 118,200 health care openings in the last three months of this year._


----------



## Wardo

Times change; maybe people just aren’t interested in filling out applications anymore. I put up an ad a few weeks ago which pays average rate up to a bit higher depending on experience and got 18 applications three of which were barely qualified the rest of them have been working in donut shops. The government needs to put in the living wage for everybody so that no one has to work that would be cool…lol

It used to be that when we put up an advertisement we would be deluged with job applications.


----------



## laristotle

Wardo said:


> The government needs to put in the living wage for everybody so that no one has to work that would be cool…lol


Then who's going to make/sell me beer? 😟


----------



## Milkman

laristotle said:


> Then who's going to make/sell me beer? 😟


----------



## Jim DaddyO

laristotle said:


> This sure doesn't help much ..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Nursing shortage has frontline workers burned out
> 
> 
> Her breaking point was watching so many people die of COVID -- with only nurses to witness their deaths.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> torontosun.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _“They’re leaving the profession. Some of them have retired early. But the majority have just left the bedside. They’ve gone to public health or clinics. Anything to get out of the hospital sector,” said Halupa, who has 23 years’ experience at a Toronto hospital.
> 
> “My department alone has lost 60 nurses,” she said. “COVID was kind of just the straw that broke the camel’s back for us.”
> 
> What is also broken is the health sector’s ability to attract new faces.
> 
> A survey of national job vacancies shows thousands of nursing jobs available — 47,000 — yet no one filling them.
> 
> According to Statistics Canada there were 118,200 health care openings in the last three months of this year._



Last conversations I have had with nurses is that they can only get part time hours at any single institution, so they were working multiple part time gigs. Because of the part time classification there are no benefits. Many consider moving, and do, if they can. Usually to different countries where they can make significantly more. Some move to different fields, because, why would you put up with the BS a nurse has to for what they earn when you can get the same or better elsewhere without the hassle?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Wardo said:


> Times change; maybe people just aren’t interested in filling out applications anymore. I put up an ad a few weeks ago which pays average rate up to a bit higher depending on experience and got 18 applications three of which were barely qualified the rest of them have been working in donut shops. The government needs to put in the living wage for everybody so that no one has to work that would be cool…lol
> 
> It used to be that when we put up an advertisement we would be deluged with job applications.



It's a different world now. Employees don't have to compete for a job, employers have to compete for workers. If you want the best, you have to offer the best. It may be that it is not that people don't want to work, they just don't want to work for you.


----------



## 1SweetRide

HighNoon said:


> Who do you think is making the decisions? The bureaucrats or the paid for staff. Same crowd control techniques as used in the events I mentioned, and now enhanced for your enjoyment. The passports are a real nice touch.....remember, there will never be passports and now there are. And I just love the you have to get the jab or you'll lose your job....what do you call that? I call it extortion. And who can forget get the jab so we can get to herd immunity. There's a sweet chestnut for ya'. After all is said and done and all the little spike proteins have gone to bed and are snoozing quietly, it will always be about control.


Sweden tried the herd immunity route. Didn’t work out so well. In your mind, protecting co-workers is extortion? The government doesn’t want this control you’re worried about. Less drama would be better for your health and stress levels than actually getting the vaccine. Peace.


----------



## Wardo

Jim DaddyO said:


> they just don't want to work for you.


The job pays 45K and is low stress compared to most places. We have people leave our office and then come back pretty quickly; sometimes it’s half a day after they start a new job sometimes it’s two weeks sometimes eight or nine months. But generally it’s a pretty good place to work.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

On a side note...


----------



## Wardo

9 AM and the Lineup in front of the drugstore for booster shots is about half a mile long and they’re freezing their asses off.


----------



## 2manyGuitars




----------



## Jim DaddyO

Wardo said:


> The job pays 45K and is low stress compared to most places.


Not "you" personally, "you" the employer in general.

But, $45K can be made at a mindless factory job with ease, with great benefits and zero stress. The only thing you really have to do is show up, punch in the time card, put the card in the slot, park your brain beside the time card, stay for 8 hours. On the way out the door, punch the card, pick up your brain and go home.


----------



## Wardo

OK, I’ll change the ad to 90 K a year and 2 months off in the summer…lol


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> Last conversations I have had with nurses is that they can only get part time hours at any single institution, so they were working multiple part time gigs. Because of the part time classification there are no benefits. Many consider moving, and do, if they can. Usually to different countries where they can make significantly more. Some move to different fields, because, why would you put up with the BS a nurse has to for what they earn when you can get the same or better elsewhere without the hassle?


We have a few nurses as tax clients. I'd say they get paid very well.


----------



## 1SweetRide

allthumbs56 said:


> We have a few nurses as tax clients. I'd say they get paid very well.


My whole family is full of nurses. Once you get full time, it is $110K to $140K at a larger hospital.


----------



## zztomato

Wardo said:


> OK, I’ll change the ad to 90 K a year and 2 months off in the summer…lol


I'll take it! When do I start? And, er, what am I doing?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Wardo said:


> OK, I’ll change the ad to 90 K a year and 2 months off in the summer…lol


Does that include a recliner, a warm blanket, and a "safe space"?...lol


----------



## Jim DaddyO

1SweetRide said:


> Once you get full time


That's the pertinent piece of the equation right there. It takes quite a few years to get that. Hospital funding doesn't allow for much of that any more. The directors have to get their bonuses for saving on the budget you know...lol.


----------



## 1SweetRide

zztomato said:


> I'll take it! When do I start? And, er, what am I doing?


You’re sorting toothpics for uniformity in weight and girth.


----------



## Wardo

zztomato said:


> I'll take it! When do I start? And, er, what am I doing?


Mostly just answer the phone and tell people that I’m not available .. lol


----------



## zztomato

1SweetRide said:


> You’re sorting toothpics for uniformity in weight and girth.


Fortunately my skill set is perfect for this.



Wardo said:


> Mostly just answer the phone and tell people that I’m not available .. lol


Summers off? Full dental/medical? I'm in!


----------



## HighNoon

1SweetRide said:


> Sweden tried the herd immunity route. Didn’t work out so well. In your mind, protecting co-workers is extortion? The government doesn’t want this control you’re worried about. Less drama would be better for your health and stress levels than actually getting the vaccine. Peace.


Sweden has vaccinated from the beginning. They're over 70% of the population with the jab. What they didn't do was shut down their society with lockdowns that crushed their local economies, and they didn't shut schools etc. They have recently changed that approach. Herd immunity is reached when a population get's to a certain level of the population having had a pathogen, whatever it is. Vaccines are immune therapy. There are some shots that work quite well and help to get to herd immunity. However this one, the one right now, is not one of them. In fact it's driving immune escape and it's very possible is actually extending the pandemic. And forget the protecting your fellow workers nonsense. You take a vaccine to protect yourself. That's it.


----------



## HighNoon

2manyGuitars said:


>


No one is going to have immunity to Omnicron.....neither those who got the jab or those who haven't. The jab focuses on recognizing the spike protein and the S protein in Omnicron has 36 mutations so the jab is useless. The only thing intact from the previous virus is the N protein. So, we're all going to get it. It's going to burn through the population. The good news from all reports from S.Africa and Britain, is it's relatively mild as compared to previous strains.....big uptick in cases, with only a small bump in mortality.


----------



## 1SweetRide

HighNoon said:


> Sweden has vaccinated from the beginning. They're over 70% of the population with the jab. What they didn't do was shut down their society with lockdowns that crushed their local economies, and they didn't shut schools etc. They have recently changed that approach. Herd immunity is reached when a population get's to a certain level of the population having had a pathogen, whatever it is. Vaccines are immune therapy. There are some shots that work quite well and help to get to herd immunity. However this one, the one right now, is not one of them. In fact it's driving immune escape and it's very possible is actually extending the pandemic. And forget the protecting your fellow workers nonsense. You take a vaccine to protect yourself. That's it.


Vaccines are not immune therapy at all. It teaches your body to recognize an invader and react to it. It doesn’t make you immune from anything. As for the disregarding of getting vaccinated to help protect others, I don’t know what to say. I feel bad you think we’re all that selfish.


----------



## Mikev7305




----------



## player99

colchar said:


> Has anyone heard anything about the efficacy of the vaccines against this new Decepticon variant? Is one better than the other?
> 
> And does the order of your initial two doses play into things? I had Pfizer first and Moderna second, does it matter which I get for my third dose? I can get Pfizer today (assuming my pharmacy managed to keep a dose for me) or Moderna at work on Wednesday. Not sure which to get, or if this is a get the first one available situation.


Get both.


----------



## keto

May have been mentioned, but Pfizer apparently rare in Canada right now, most of the boosters are Moderna.


----------



## mhammer

We went for our booster this morning. It was Pfizer, although the initial paperwork indicated either Pfizer OR Moderna, and that the preference was to reserve Pfizer shots for kids. I would imagine any shortages are a regionally-specific thing, that also depends on local population demographics and who they have to save what for. It's not like there's a humungous transport jet that flies across the country in an hour, parachuting palettes of vaccine. Santa is NOT the one distributing supplies.

I asked the nurse to aspirate before injecting, and she obliged me. I guess I should make a point of putting or getting things on higher shelves now, before my shoulder starts to hurt. No other side-effects the previous two occasions other than deeply regretting reaching above my head for about 36hrs.

And just a reminder to folks. Immunity is NOT a light-switch that is either on or off. Vaccination may not prevent infection by Omicron, but will reduce severity in a clinically important way by enhancing whatever degree of immunity one has developed. And right now, being just a _little_ sick, but not sick enough to feel the need to go to emergency, is one of the most socially responsible things one can aim for.


----------



## davetcan

I'm sitting waiting right now, only Moderna here for 18 and over.


----------



## colchar

keto said:


> May have been mentioned, but Pfizer apparently rare in Canada right now, most of the boosters are Moderna.


My pharmacist told me the opposite.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Pfizer is the only option around here. Same as the last 2 rounds.


----------



## allthumbs56

Here in Niagara apparently Moderna is the booster choice right now with Pfizer being save for the weeuns.


----------



## mhammer

Like I said, availability will vary by region. The good news is that pretty much any vaccine will improve immune response if it has been a while since your last injection. And whatever protection it provides that might be less than another vaccine...well that's what masks and distancing are for, eh?


----------



## Fred Gifford

Mikev7305 said:


> View attachment 394263


I thought the corona virus was going to wipe out humanity?, then it was the Murder Hornets, then it was the Delta Virus and now there is a new one?, oh and I was also reading about this huge Polar Ice Cap that's due to melt? collapse? any day now, and if you think the virus thing was bad, then this next catastrophic ice berg thing is going to dwarf that ... I think I'm starting to see a common theme here.


----------



## Mikev7305

Next it'll be aliens coming to take over the planet


----------



## ZeroGravity

Fred Gifford said:


> I thought the corona virus was going to wipe out humanity?, then it was the Murder Hornets, then it was the Delta Virus and now there is a new one?, oh and I was also reading about this huge Polar Ice Cap that's due to melt? collapse? any day now, and if you think the virus thing was bad, then this next catastrophic ice berg thing is going to dwarf that ... I think I'm starting to see a common theme here.


Fuck you Morpheus, I wanted to take the blue pill. Now I have to deal with with this crap


----------



## laristotle

Mikev7305 said:


> Next it'll be aliens coming to take over the planet


Um .. we're already here.


----------



## Mikev7305

laristotle said:


> Um .. we're already here.


Just like omicron is here, doesn't mean it's scary


----------



## Eric Reesor

Mikev7305 said:


> Next it'll be aliens coming to take over the planet


We already did.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Fred Gifford said:


> I thought the corona virus was going to wipe out humanity?, then it was the Murder Hornets, then it was the Delta Virus and now there is a new one?, oh and I was also reading about this huge Polar Ice Cap that's due to melt? collapse? any day now, and if you think the virus thing was bad, then this next catastrophic ice berg thing is going to dwarf that ... I think I'm starting to see a common theme here.





Mikev7305 said:


> Next it'll be aliens coming to take over the planet


It's a ploy. Keep in mind...don't waste your time and energy worrying about things you can do nothing about.


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## greco

Jim DaddyO said:


> ....Same as the last 2 rounds.


The next round is on me.


----------



## tdotrob

Jim DaddyO said:


> It's a different world now. Employees don't have to compete for a job, employers have to compete for workers. If you want the best, you have to offer the best. It may be that it is not that people don't want to work, they just don't want to work for you.


Lol don’t you know that anyone under 50 is just lazy and doesn’t want to work?


----------



## keto

Funny this thread lasts 20 months when the first 4 or 5 on the subject couldn’t last a few weeks.

You’d think the modern world had never seen a pandemic, or something. Expecting politicians to make medical decisions, no wonder everything’s so fucked up.

@Milkman sorry, Mike, but no way this thing would have been over by now. Too much of the world unvaxed, and that’s seeming to matter less and less, and around and around it goes. Even if another hundred million North Americans were triple vaxed and masking everywhere, we would still be in the middle of a pandemic. Restrictions would be likely lesser but not non-existent.


----------



## 2manyGuitars




----------



## Midnight Rider

2manyGuitars said:


> No, it’s good to know that if you’re vaccinated, it’s HIGHLY unlikely you’ll need any sort of intervention at all.


Nope,... Dan Bongino who is double vaccinated contracted Covid recently and luckily for him he lives in Florida where he had free Monoclonal Antibodies Therapy given to him at one of the 21 clinics available in that state. He had fully recovered in 36 hours and back on his feet working. 

This is just one of the many breakthrough cases where the therapy helped to keep individuals out of the hospital.

Dan Bongino infected with painful breakthrough case of COVID-19: 'One of the worst things I ever experienced'
"Conservative radio host Dan Bongino said during his Monday show that he caught a "painful case" of COVID-19 last week, despite having been vaccinated. 
"So I had COVID. You know my vaccine history. I've spoken about it. It was obviously a breakthrough case," Bongino explained. "It was not a mild case. It was actually a pretty painful case. So I don't know what the other cases are, these breakthrough cases. I can't speak to them — I can only speak for myself."

"It was not a mild case — it was a pretty awful case," he continued. 
Bongino said he suspected he knew from whom he contracted the case but did not provide details. He also said he didn't let the illness stop him from producing his shows as scheduled and that he isolated himself in his studio to produce the shows. 
"I'm not a doctor, ... I worked with a doctor though, and I took the antibodies, the monoclonal antibodies, and I can tell you within 36 hours I felt better," he explained. "I also took ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, zinc, vitamin D, vitamin C. ..." 

"I'm not going to correlate or make causal inferences about any of that. ... The breakthrough case for me was not mild at all. It was one of the worst things I ever experienced," he added."


----------



## Midnight Rider

zztomato said:


> Unsurprisingly, you also believe your own bullshit. Carry on.


Yeah,... didn't think you could find what I asked you to produce. People who are on the losing side usually do display some degree of aggression. Predictable as usual.


----------



## Midnight Rider

jb welder said:


> Monoclonal costs 100 to 200 times more than a vaccine shot.
> Funny that all the ones that were complaining about the economic costs of covid restrictions are all in for relying on monoclonal instead of vaccines.


Yeah,...and it actually works,...


----------



## Midnight Rider

2manyGuitars said:


>


Funny how he left out an additional important piece of information.

Omicron variant death in Texas: What we know about the first omicron variant death in the U.S.

According to Harris County Public Health, the unvaccinated man had previously been infected with COVID-19 and had _underlying health conditions_ that made him vulnerable to severe COVID-19.









My condolences to his family and friends,... but one individual out of a population of 332,915,073 and only one the death in the UK thus far with Omicron,... I think we should be looking at the positive side of things as well.


----------



## Guitar101

Midnight Rider said:


> Yeah,...and it actually works,...


Monoclonal antibodies are lab-made proteins, that can mimic the immune system's ability to fight off threats like the coronavirus. It's being reported that there are 7 million US citizens that can't create their own antibodies and need monoclonal antibodies and the US government has ordered 300,000 doses. Although it's great that there is something that can help them, who decides who gets the government doses.


----------



## zztomato

Midnight Rider said:


> Yeah,... didn't think you could find what I asked you to produce. People who are on the losing side usually do display some degree of aggression. Predictable as usual.


Why would I do what you asked? I would have read through all the drivel of your hundreds of paranoid rants.
BTW, your constant posting in this thread tells the story of your aggressive attitude toward anyone who disagrees with you. Like a typical narcissist, you are ill equipped to recognize this. I feel sad for you.


----------



## player99

Not gonna let 'em catch the Midnight Rider


----------



## allthumbs56

Well, it would seem that we have reached capacity in testing. I know of a family here that have done the rapid tests and all four of them are positive. They can't get a PCR test until the New Year and I expect it will take some days to get back the results. So ten or twelve days from symptoms to test results - I think that's more than the prescribed time it takes for the virus to run it's course - so the process is for the statisticians and historians alone.

Do boosters work? We think so - we HOPE so. Regardless it'll be the end of January before enough people are boosted and some time after that before their "protection" is ramped up. Not in time if the modelers are to be believed.

So, I hope that everyone has taken (and is taking) the best precautions available. I'm pretty sure it's time for the chips to fall.

Best of luck and Merry Christmas too all.


----------



## 1SweetRide

I’m glad I got Pzfizer for my booster. Had I received Moderna, it would have meant I’d have had three different vaccines. Might have made it difficult to travel to places that want two like vaccinations.


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> Well, it would seem that we have reached capacity in testing. I know of a family here that have done the rapid tests and all four of them are positive. They can't get a PCR test until the New Year and I expect it will take some days to get back the results. So ten or twelve days from symptoms to test results - I think that's more than the prescribed time it takes for the virus to run it's course - so the process is for the statisticians and historians alone.
> 
> Do boosters work? We think so - we HOPE so. Regardless it'll be the end of January before enough people are boosted and some time after that before their "protection" is ramped up. Not in time if the modelers are to be believed.
> 
> So, I hope that everyone has taken (and is taking) the best precautions available. I'm pretty sure it's time for the chips to fall.
> 
> Best of luck and Merry Christmas too all.



If you have symptoms (I do) you cannot get the rapid test, you have to take the PCR test (unless you lie and say you are asymptomatic). And if you take a rapid test and it comes back positive, you need a PCR test to confirm.

I tried yesterday to get a rapid test in various locations and was told multiple times that I couldn't because I have symptoms. I do have a PCR test scheduled for this afternoon, but there is currently a backlog of more than 50,000 tests waiting to be processed so there is no way I will have results by tomorrow. I know they are saying that if you have symptoms right now, assume you have Covid but I have had symptoms much worse than this a few other times and all tests have come back negative (for some reason I have had several sinus infections since Covid started, maybe something to do with wearing a mask?).


----------



## colchar

What the fuck were they thinking?????


_The Public Health Agency of Canada accessed location data from 33 million mobile devices to monitor people’s movement during lockdown, the agency revealed this week. 

“Due to the urgency of the pandemic, (PHAC) collected and used mobility data, such as cell-tower location data, throughout the COVID-19 response,” a spokesperson told National Post. The program’s existence was first brought to wider attention by Blacklock’s Reporter. 

PHAC used the location data to evaluate the effectiveness of public lockdown measures and allow the Agency to “understand possible links between movement of populations within Canada and spread of COVID-19,” the spokesperson said. _










Canada's public health agency admits it tracked 33 million mobile devices during lockdown


The Public Health Agency of Canada accessed data such as cell-tower location to monitor people’s activity during lockdown, it said




nationalpost.com


----------



## 1SweetRide

colchar said:


> If you have symptoms (I do) you cannot get the rapid test, you have to take the PCR test (unless you lie and say you are asymptomatic). And if you take a rapid test and it comes back positive, you need a PCR test to confirm.
> 
> I tried yesterday to get a rapid test in various locations and was told multiple times that I couldn't because I have symptoms. I do have a PCR test scheduled for this afternoon, but there is currently a backlog of more than 50,000 tests waiting to be processed so there is no way I will have results by tomorrow. I know they are saying that if you have symptoms right now, assume you have Covid but I have had symptoms much worse than this a few other times and all tests have come back negative (for some reason I have had several sinus infections since Covid started, maybe something to do with wearing a mask?).


For many people, the symptoms from the new variant can resemble a common cold. Going to be hard to tell without a PCR test what's really going on. If it was me, I wouldn't do the test, I'd self isolate until I was symptom free as it seems getting tested is becoming more and more of a hassle.


----------



## colchar

1SweetRide said:


> For many people, the symptoms from the new variant can resemble a common cold. Going to be hard to tell without a PCR test what's really going on. If it was me, I wouldn't do the test, I'd self isolate until I was symptom free as it seems getting tested is becoming more and more of a hassle.



Yeah, a shitty cold. Those are exactly the symptoms I have, plus my guts are playing up.

And getting a test is damned near impossible right now with most places booking in January.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Midnight Rider said:


> Funny how he left out an additional important piece of information.
> 
> Omicron variant death in Texas: What we know about the first omicron variant death in the U.S.
> 
> According to Harris County Public Health, the unvaccinated man had previously been infected with COVID-19 and had _underlying health conditions_ that made him vulnerable to severe COVID-19.
> 
> View attachment 394351
> 
> My condolences to his family and friends,... but one individual out of a population of 332,915,073 and only one the death in the UK thus far with Omicron,... I think we should be looking at the positive side of things as well.


Yeah, when I posted that, I was fully aware that of course, it’s one particular example with not a lot of additional information. I figured that there were likely other factors involved.

It’s funny that you even said “... but one individual out of a population of 332,915,073” and immediately after, when talking about monoclonal therapy, you trot out an example of one guy. And BTW, one guy with a VERY particular agenda to push his narrative on COVID, vaccines, treatment, etc.

I agree that these isolated news blurbs need to be looked at as part of a bigger picture and that’s how I’m presenting them. As a “hey, check this out” as opposed to the gospel truth.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

1SweetRide said:


> I’m glad I got Pzfizer for my booster. Had I received Moderna, it would have meant I’d have had three different vaccines. Might have made it difficult to travel to places that want two like vaccinations.


My first 2 were Pfizer. I got my booster over a week ago and at that time, I was offered the choice. I mentioned that I had heard getting Moderna after 2 Pfizer shots was supposed to be better. We discussed it and I got a half-dose of Moderna.


----------



## tomee2

Can't seem to book any appointment for a booster... nothing on the website, and calling I was asked if I checked the website.

Edit... just got an email from a pharmacy I registered with a few days ago...appt for next week now!


----------



## keto

Some stories about bad information, shows how stuff gets twisted so easily. Be smart about what you read. At least try and find supporting reporting.








NOT REAL NEWS: A look at what didn't happen this week


A roundup of some of the most popular but completely untrue stories and visuals of the week. None of these are legit, even though they were shared widely on social media. The Associated Press checked them out.




apnews.com


----------



## HighNoon

1SweetRide said:


> Vaccines are not immune therapy at all. It teaches your body to recognize an invader and react to it. It doesn’t make you immune from anything. As for the disregarding of getting vaccinated to help protect others, I don’t know what to say. I feel bad you think we’re all that selfish.


Selfish.....a question of ethics perhaps. 
There's one other glaring item to be addressed. The mortality number for children and covid is somewhere around 0.025%. So barring a child with serious health problems, they are in the driver's seat for survival. And what do they, serious music....da da....the health authorities want to do. Jab the teens....jab jab.....jab the children....jab jab jab.....and Tam the Ghoul's favorite....jab the babies.....jab jab jab jab. And so the question; where are the ethics in this. And the word selfish doesn't even come within ten city blocks of what they're doing.


----------



## mhammer

What exactly is your end-goal?
From all outward appearances, it would seem to be simply rejecting whatever "experts" and authorities recommend. But I'll let you speak for yourself.


----------



## colchar

HighNoon said:


> Selfish.....a question of ethics perhaps.
> There's one other glaring item to be addressed. The mortality number for children and covid is somewhere around 0.025%. So barring a child with serious health problems, they are in the driver's seat for survival. And what do they, serious music....da da....the health authorities want to do. Jab the teens....jab jab.....jab the children....jab jab jab.....and Tam the Ghoul's favorite....jab the babies.....jab jab jab jab. And so the question; where are the ethics in this. And the word selfish doesn't even come within ten city blocks of what they're doing.


Mortality isn't the only issue with this virus, and the more people who are immunized the less chance there is of further mutations.

You do know that smallpox was eradicated using vaccines right?


----------



## keto

colchar said:


> Mortality isn't the only issue with this virus, and the more people who are immunized the less chance there is of further mutations.
> 
> You do know that smallpox was eradicated using vaccines right?


Bad equivalent, it doesn’t mutate as quickly as a coronavirus, just sayin. I don’t understand wanting to vax young kids either, but also understand that there’s stuff I don’t know. But AB has 2 deaths in about 85K cases under 19. Wouldn’t you expect at least similar if not worse mortality vaxing multiple numbers? But how many other bad long term outcomes are there, does that swing the balance? Just haven’t seen, I suppose the answers are out there.


----------



## colchar

keto said:


> Bad equivalent, it doesn’t mutate as quickly as a coronavirus, just sayin.


True, but there was hesitancy when that vaccien came out but it turned out to be beneficial to mankind.




> I don’t understand wanting to vax young kids either, but also understand that there’s stuff I don’t know. But AB has 2 deaths in about 85K cases under 19. Wouldn’t you expect at least similar if not worse mortality vaxing multiple numbers? But how many other bad long term outcomes are there, does that swing the balance? Just haven’t seen, I suppose the answers are out there.



Again, it isn't just about mortality.


----------



## HighNoon

colchar said:


> Mortality isn't the only issue with this virus, and the more people who are immunized the less chance there is of further mutations.
> 
> You do know that smallpox was eradicated using vaccines right?


This is about as weak as the polio argument, which was the original bait and hook sell job here in Canada. Polio and Smallpox are relatively stable pathogens. And the treatment was and still is, like curing like. Coronaviruses are not stable and there has never been a successful vaccine for one. If you get a flu vaccine do you do it during flu season....No, you do it before to get what is usually a limited protection, since they're basically guessing on the soup du jour. By doing mass vaccinations during a pandemic, like we are doing, we are encouraging mutations, or immune escape. Look at Delta....right at the polybasic furin cleavage site (done in some lab, somewhere to increase infectivity), it's protein signature was PRRA....it changed to RRRA, and bingo it was doubly infectious. And now with Omnicron we have the spike with 36 mutations (iirc), so the jab you got (which instructs the body to react to the spike in the viral load) doesn't even recognize it and as a result is wholly ineffective. Everybody's going to get it. Luckily it appears to be somewhat mild.


----------



## colchar

HighNoon said:


> Coronaviruses are not stable and there has never been a successful vaccine for one.



So because we've never had one before that means we can never have one?! What the fuck is wrong with you?

Do you even grasp that everything we have, literally everything, is something we didn't have at one time but now do because someone invented it?

Just because we have never had a successful vaccine for a coronavirus doesn't mean we can never had one. We didn't have penicillin, then we did. We didn't have insulin, then we did. We didn't have blood thinners, then we did. And on, and on, and on.





> If you get a flu vaccine do you do it during flu season....No, you do it before to get what is usually a limited protection, since they're basically guessing on the soup du jour.



You can get it before or during flue season, for fuck sakes.





> By doing mass vaccinations during a pandemic, like we are doing, we are encouraging mutations, or immune escape.



Um no, we're not.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> Do you even grasp that everything we have, literally everything, is something we didn't have at one time but now do because someone invented it?



1 exception...stupid people. They've been around since forever.


----------



## Guitar101

Jim DaddyO said:


> 1 exception...stupid people. They've been around since forever.


I'm pretty sure the first words that were ever spoken by humans as we evolved from monkeys was "stupid monkeys"🎅


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Guitar101 said:


> I'm pretty sure the first words that were ever spoken by humans as we evolved from monkeys was "stupid monkeys"🎅


Some people tend to believe it was "Hey, we were told not to eat this, so let's take a bite".


----------



## Jim DaddyO




----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


>


It often leads to the inability to think critically? I would say that the inability to think critically leads to the certainty in one's own opinion. 

It is the arrogance and self-assuredness of the ignorant.


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## 2manyGuitars




----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> It often leads to the inability to think critically? I would say that the inability to think critically leads to the certainty in one's own opinion.


I have been trying to take the stance of not having any opinion of my own, but rather relying on the opinion of those who are most knowledgable in the field. That, perhaps, may not fall into the category of "critical thinking", but at least I can tell those who disagree to take up their arguemant with those from whom I am deriving the opinion.


----------



## 2manyGuitars




----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> It often leads to the inability to think critically? I would say that the inability to think critically leads to the certainty in one's own opinion.
> 
> It is the arrogance and self-assuredness of the ignorant.


The so-called Dunning-Kruger phenomenon/pattern, first described in a 1999 social cognition paper, pertains specifically to the accuracy of self-assessment, relative to actual performance. Persons who perform higher on some category of task have a tendency to estimate their performance either accurately or underestimate a little, whereas those who perform poorly have a tendency to overestimate their own performance. Dunning and Kruger posited that better performance is generally well-calibrated by metacognition - being a sort of "bird's-eye" observer of one's own thinking and performance. That is, if I know more about the factors underlying my performance in some domain, then I am able to optimize my performance - not at all unlike the way we see football players immediately pull out the tablet to watch the video of what they just did, once they get to the bench. Those who do not, or perhaps can not, do so not only perform more poorly in that domain, but also misjudge how well they perform. I suppose the poster child is Dustin Hoffman's "Rain Man" declaration that "I'm an excellent driver".

The linked-to-video generalizes the effect perhaps a bit beyond what it originally described. Sense of certainty, and more categorical judgments of "I'm an expert and you're an idiot" move beyond the mere metacognitive mechanics that Dunning and Kruger first described, into personality and motivation. Sense of certainty about one's own performance is one thing, but sense of certainty about one's own thinking/performance compared to *others* is quite another. There we move into other territory whereby overall self-image (which is more than guessing how well you did on task X, before or after performance feedback) bears down. I think the video ignores the boundary between the basic competence-metacognition-self-assessment relationship, and broader aspects of personality and motivation, when the speaker starts to talk about being able to "tell a stupid person they are stupid".

I keep harping on here about the adolescent style of reasoning whereby how one *feels* is considered to be important and valid information, on par with, and sometimes _more_ relevant and valid than, actual facts. Being psycho-socially and cognitively mature includes being able to set aside feelings, when appropriate, in order to examine the facts. If someone tells me I'm "stupid", that sort of social judgment is going to raise my hackles, and generate feelings of threat and consequent hostility towards both the individual categorizing me that way and the information they use to make that assertion. There we have moved WELL beyond what Dunning and Kruger have studied, and have stumbled into the domain of psych-social maturity and emotion.

Of course, the dilemma is that when someone's reasoning style is at the level of a less mature adolescent, but they are socially classified as "adult", because of their chronological age, that provides a basis for treating one's own fallacious reasoning as absolutely sound. That is, persons will treat their reasoning and inferences as legitimate because of their social classification (how old they are), and not so much because of objective examination of the reasoning processes they undertook.

A big part of skilled critical thinking involves a sort of "epistemic audit"; in other words asking one's self "How is it that I know what I think I know? Are the inferences I drew valid? Are the information sources I drew them from reliable and relevant?", etc.. It's a kind of meta-attitudinal self-examination. And I suppose Dunning and Kruger might concur that the reasonableness and plausibility of a person's inferences (bearing in mind that it would be hard to "score" inferences about many things as right or wrong the way we score task performance) would be greater, the more they engage in such "epistemic audit". Over-reliance on feelings, and self-image preservation, to the neglect of such epistemic audit, would be expected to lead to less reasonable reasoning, in the same way that poorer metacognition about mundane tasks leads to poorer performance, less accurate self-assessment of performance, and less benefit of feedback TO performance.


----------



## bolero

"A lot of morons think they're geniuses. I'm smarter than everybody else."

Frank Zappa & The Necessities.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> The so-called Dunning-Kruger phenomenon/pattern, first described in a 1999 social cognition paper, pertains specifically to the accuracy of self-assessment, relative to actual performance. Persons who perform higher on some category of task have a tendency to estimate their performance either accurately or underestimate a little, whereas those who perform poorly have a tendency to overestimate their own performance. Dunning and Kruger posited that better performance is generally well-calibrated by metacognition - being a sort of "bird's-eye" observer of one's own thinking and performance. That is, if I know more about the factors underlying my performance in some domain, then I am able to optimize my performance - not at all unlike the way we see football players immediately pull out the tablet to watch the video of what they just did, once they get to the bench. Those who do not, or perhaps can not, do so not only perform more poorly in that domain, but also misjudge how well they perform. I suppose the poster child is Dustin Hoffman's "Rain Man" declaration that "I'm an excellent driver".
> 
> The linked-to-video generalizes the effect perhaps a bit beyond what it originally described. Sense of certainty, and more categorical judgments of "I'm an expert and you're an idiot" move beyond the mere metacognitive mechanics that Dunning and Kruger first described, into personality and motivation. Sense of certainty about one's own performance is one thing, but sense of certainty about one's own thinking/performance compared to *others* is quite another. There we move into other territory whereby overall self-image (which is more than guessing how well you did on task X, before or after performance feedback) bears down. I think the video ignores the boundary between the basic competence-metacognition-self-assessment relationship, and broader aspects of personality and motivation, when the speaker starts to talk about being able to "tell a stupid person they are stupid".
> 
> I keep harping on here about the adolescent style of reasoning whereby how one *feels* is considered to be important and valid information, on par with, and sometimes _more_ relevant and valid than, actual facts. Being psycho-socially and cognitively mature includes being able to set aside feelings, when appropriate, in order to examine the facts. If someone tells me I'm "stupid", that sort of social judgment is going to raise my hackles, and generate feelings of threat and consequent hostility towards both the individual categorizing me that way and the information they use to make that assertion. There we have moved WELL beyond what Dunning and Kruger have studied, and have stumbled into the domain of psych-social maturity and emotion.
> 
> Of course, the dilemma is that when someone's reasoning style is at the level of a less mature adolescent, but they are socially classified as "adult", because of their chronological age, that provides a basis for treating one's own fallacious reasoning as absolutely sound. That is, persons will treat their reasoning and inferences as legitimate because of their social classification (how old they are), and not so much because of objective examination of the reasoning processes they undertook.
> 
> A big part of skilled critical thinking involves a sort of "epistemic audit"; in other words asking one's self "How is it that I know what I think I know? Are the inferences I drew valid? Are the information sources I drew them from reliable and relevant?", etc.. It's a kind of meta-attitudinal self-examination. And I suppose Dunning and Kruger might concur that the reasonableness and plausibility of a person's inferences (bearing in mind that it would be hard to "score" inferences about many things as right or wrong the way we score task performance) would be greater, the more they engage in such "epistemic audit". Over-reliance on feelings, and self-image preservation, to the neglect of such epistemic audit, would be expected to lead to less reasonable reasoning, in the same way that poorer metacognition about mundane tasks leads to poorer performance, less accurate self-assessment of performance, and less benefit of feedback TO performance.


It likely ties in with people will generally continue to believe a lie rather than admit (or believe) that they have been duped. Being tricked or misled is not a sign that you are stupid, but people seems to take it as such. For example, many people who have been scammed (phone, internet) will not report it. Although in this case they may know they have been taken, but don't want to report it and admit it.


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> It likely ties in with people will generally continue to believe a lie rather than admit (or believe) that they have been duped. Being tricked or misled is not a sign that you are stupid, but people seems to take it as such. For example, many people who have been scammed (phone, internet) will not report it. Although in this case they may know they have been taken, but don't want to report it and admit it.


That's more a case of the awesome power of cognitive dissonance.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Midnight Rider

2manyGuitars said:


> On a side note...
> View attachment 394231


Damn it!,... should have sold those bloody Yankee Candles stocks in August,


----------



## Midnight Rider

zztomato said:


> Why would I do what you asked? I would have read through all the drivel of your hundreds of paranoid rants.
> BTW, your constant posting in this thread tells the story of your aggressive attitude toward anyone who disagrees with you. Like a typical narcissist, you are ill equipped to recognize this. I feel sad for you.


Lol,...Man you get pissed when your on the losing end. Hoping you received that froth bucket over the holidays that can be fastened around the neck just below the chin.








Knock yourself out cowboy,


----------



## zztomato

Midnight Rider said:


> Lol,...Man you get pissed when your on the losing end.


Losing end of _what_?
Saddest of all is that you think there's some kind of thing that you must "win".


----------



## JBFairthorne

You see? That’s why I watch this thread. For deep, insightful input like that.


----------



## Midnight Rider

zztomato said:


> Losing end of _what_?
> Saddest of all is that you think there's some kind of thing that you must "win".


I see you are having great difficulty interpreting the content of my replies and following the sequence of my replies as they relate to your posts.

You were making some of your usual fabricated allegations as to what my motives are within this thread and I asked that you simply show proof that they were justified by finding one of my posts that clearly shows your allegations to be accurate. You failed to do so and gave some lame excuse as to why then went on one your familiar attack rants. Not that I'm keeping score on all of our exchanges,... but I suppose it clearly demonstrates who was encapsulated in the incorrect column on the aforementioned example.

What I find interesting is that you do exactly what you accuse others of doing.

It is obvious we will never have anything in common to discuss within the confines of this thread,... perhaps other forums on GC we have or will in the future agree and share information that we agree on and or benefits both of us.

I have no expectation to any degree of victory within this thread and seriously doubt anyone engaging in the many debates here will raise the 'Covid Cup' high above their heads.

I think you will agree it is in both of our best interests to just sail past each other like two ships in the night,... I'm not changing your mind on how you see things with regards to Covid,... and I guarantee you will not change mine.

Take the opportunity for the last word if you wish,... or just sail on by,...








but my money is on you will gravitate towards the last word.

While you decide on which way to go consider sinking your teeth into the attached PDF's,... these are not my opinions,... they are from individuals that are much more intelligent than either you or I.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Natural Immunity science,...""!
*Warning!* :_Read and listen at your own risk of becoming infuriated and or violently ill if you are anti-natural immunity._

Immunological memory to SARS-CoV-2 assessed for up to 8 months after infection

http://rifreedom.org/wp-content/uploads/PolicyBrief-NaturalImmunityExemption.pdf






Dr. Andrew Bostom, in Support of Rhode Island Bill to Ban Covid-19 Vaccine Passports, Provides Hard Data on Convalescent Immunity to Covid-19, and “Asymptomatic Transmission” [Audio/Text/References]
Dr. Andrew Bostom, in Support of Rhode Island Bill to Ban Covid-19 Vaccine Passports, Provides Hard Data on Convalescent Immunity to Covid-19, and “Asymptomatic Transmission” [Audio/Text/References]
The following very understated, self-explanatory comment is from a CDC document entitled, “Questions & Answers: Vaccine Against 2009 H1N1 Influenza Virus”:

CDC - CDC H1N1 Flu | Questions & Answers Novel H1N1 Influenza Vaccine
*“If you have had 2009 H1N1 flu, as confirmed by an RT-PCR test, you should have some immunity against 2009 H1N1 flu and CAN CHOOSE NOT (emphasis added) to get the 2009 H1N1 vaccine.”* [1] 

Fast forward just over a decade later, and after intensive investigation for the past 16-months, both laboratory and real world clinical data demonstrate convalescent, unvaccinated covid-19 immunity is just as robust as vaccine-acquired covid-19 immunity. Indeed multiple laboratory studies conducted by highly respected U.S. and European academic research groups have reported that convalescent mildly or severely infected SARS-CoV-2 (covid-19) patients, who are unvaccinated, can have greater virus neutralizing immunity—especially more versatile, long-enduring T-cell immunity—relative to vaccinated individuals who were never infected [2,3,4,5,6,7]. An enormous real world Israeli national follow-up study of ~6.4 million individuals, demonstrated clearly that naturally-acquired covid-19 convalescence immunity was equivalent to vaccine-acquired immunity in preventing covid-19 infection, morbidity, and mortality. Faring at least as well as those vaccinated, 187,549 unvaccinated covid-19 positive persons who tested positive between June 1, 2020 to September 30, 2020, and were followed through March 20, 2021, revealed 894 (0.48%) were reinfected; 38 (0.02%) were hospitalized, a mere 16 (0.008%) hospitalized with severe disease, and only 1 (one)/187,549 died—an individual over 80 years old. [8]. *The Israeli investigators concluded, “Our results question the need to vaccinate previously infected individuals”* [8].

Pooled with vaccine-acquired immunity, i.e., unvaccinated with natural immunity, plus vaccinated, Rhode Island has achieved de facto herd immunity [9] in terms of clinical covid-19 disease: covid-19 hospitalizations and deaths are at low background rates [10] consistent with a very manageable endemic disease, like seasonal influenza. [11,12] Moreover, and concordant with these reassuring data, while ~90% of Rhode Island’s covid-19 mortality has accrued among those 65+ years old, as of Friday, May 14. 2021, 92.4% of that age group had been partially vaccinated, and 86.1% fully vaccinated, against covid-19 [10]

Epidemic spread of covid-19, like all other respiratory viruses, again notably influenza [13], is driven by symptomatic persons; asymptomatic spread is trivial, and inconsequential: a meta-analysis of contact tracing studies published in The Journal of the American Medical Association showed asymptomatic covid-19 spread was 0.7% [14]. Accordingly, *a rational, ethical true prevention model alternative to “vaccine passports” would be simple notifications, as part of formal policies, by public agencies and businesses that persons with active symptomatic, febrile (feverish) respiratory illnesses stay home from work, and refrain from patronizing businesses*.


----------



## zztomato

Midnight Rider said:


> I see you are having great difficulty interpreting the content of my replies and following the sequence of my replies as they relate to your posts.
> 
> You were making some of your usual fabricated allegations as to what my motives are within this thread and I asked that you simply show proof that they were justified by finding one of my posts that clearly shows your allegations to be accurate. You failed to do so and gave some lame excuse as to why then went on one your familiar attack rants. Not that I'm keeping score on all of our exchanges,... but I suppose it clearly demonstrates who was encapsulated in the incorrect column on the aforementioned example.
> 
> What I find interesting is that you do exactly what you accuse others of doing.
> 
> It is obvious we will never have anything in common to discuss within the confines of this thread,... perhaps other forums on GC we have or will in the future agree and share information that we agree on and or benefits both of us.
> 
> I have no expectation to any degree of victory within this thread and seriously doubt anyone engaging in the many debates here will raise the 'Covid Cup' high above their heads.
> 
> I think you will agree it is in both of our best interests to just sail past each other like two ships in the night,... I'm not changing your mind on how you see things with regards to Covid,... and I guarantee you will not change mine.
> 
> Take the opportunity for the last word if you wish,... or just sail on by,...
> View attachment 394853
> 
> but my money is on you will gravitate towards the last word.
> 
> While you decide on which way to go consider sinking your teeth into the attached PDF's,... these are not my opinions,... they are from individuals that are much more intelligent than either you or I.


Ok, bye. 👋


----------



## Milkman

zztomato said:


> Ok, bye. 👋



Ignore is a last resort for me, but sometimes it's the best one.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Milkman

laristotle said:


> View attachment 394872



Yeah, yeah. Sorry, Life is too short. I choose who I interact / chat with. Your Mileage May Vary.


----------



## zztomato

Milkman said:


> Ignore is a last resort for me, but sometimes it's the best one.


And miss all the frothy invective? No way man. Too much entertainment value with that contestant.


----------



## Milkman

zztomato said:


> And miss all the frothy invective? No way man. Too much entertainment value with that contestant.


Not entertaining for me. It's ok for a little while, then it just becomes tiring.

Enjoy.


----------



## zztomato

Milkman said:


> Not entertaining for me. It's ok for a little while, then it just becomes tiring.
> 
> Enjoy.


On a serious note, I don't disagree. It is extremely tiresome.


----------



## HighNoon

Is everybody still going out and getting their booster shots. Did your authorities tell you to not bother, because this latest mutation doesn't care about your injection status. Have your authorities rescinded vaccine passports, because now it doesn't matter, given the virus (being the sneaky little virus it is), has found a way to get around your protection, and everyone is back to square one. Got to move those refrigerators, got to move those colour TV's.......


----------



## JBFairthorne

Yawn.


----------



## allthumbs56

HighNoon said:


> Is everybody still going out and getting their booster shots. Did your authorities tell you to not bother, because this latest mutation doesn't care about your injection status. Have your authorities rescinded vaccine passports, because now it doesn't matter, given the virus (being the sneaky little virus it is), has found a way to get around your protection, and everyone is back to square one. Got to move those refrigerators, got to move those colour TV's.......


Yup - a little later than I'd like (Jan 12) but I'll load as many tools on my belt as I can. Mock me as much as you'd like. I feel I've done the right things.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

allthumbs56 said:


> Yup - a little later than I'd like (Jan 12) but I'll load as many tools on my belt as I can. Mock me as much as you'd like. I feel I've done the right things.


Same date we have for ours. Same reasons too.


----------



## HighNoon

allthumbs56 said:


> Yup - a little later than I'd like (Jan 12) but I'll load as many tools on my belt as I can. Mock me as much as you'd like. I feel I've done the right things.


I respect your decision....it's yours' . What I mock as you say, is the powers that be, not telling the truth, and continuing bad policy that affects our fellow citizens.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

So, _now_ we’re worried about affecting our fellow citizens?


----------



## colchar

HighNoon said:


> Is everybody still going out and getting their booster shots. Did your authorities tell you to not bother, because this latest mutation doesn't care about your injection status. Have your authorities rescinded vaccine passports, because now it doesn't matter, given the virus (being the sneaky little virus it is), has found a way to get around your protection, and everyone is back to square one. Got to move those refrigerators, got to move those colour TV's.......



You're obviously too thick to grasp that vaccinations prevent more serious illness thus reducing hospitalization and ICU admissions. The unvaccinated still get to enjoy those though.


----------



## colchar

2manyGuitars said:


> So, _now_ we’re worried about affecting our fellow citizens?



🤣 🤣 🤣


----------



## HighNoon

colchar said:


> You're obviously too thick to grasp that vaccinations prevent more serious illness thus reducing hospitalization and ICU admissions. The unvaccinated still get to enjoy those though.


You're obviously unable to understand, as I pointed out before, that any vaccination you have received before now, does not recognize this latest mutation, and thus it doesn't matter if you're jabbed or not.


----------



## allthumbs56

HighNoon said:


> You're obviously unable to understand, as I pointed out before, that any vaccination you have received before now, does not recognize this latest mutation, and thus it doesn't matter if you're jabbed or not.


Pretty sure this is wrong. What I've seen is that although the current vaccines are less effective against Omicron - they're still 33% or so effective in reducing illness and 55% - 70% with a booster.

New study finds booster protection against Omicron drops at 10 weeks 

You got something that says otherwise? It's early days again - I'd like to see your source.


----------



## laristotle

Ontario becomes the first province to list fluvoxamine as a COVID-19 treatment to consider


Ontario has become the first province to list an inexpensive and well-known antidepressant as a treatment doctors can 'consider' for patients with a mild COVID-19 infection in a bid to keep them out of hospital.




www.ctvnews.ca




_The drug costs a little more than a dollar a day and would be taken for 15 days, starting with a small dose. In comparison, the antivirals medicines from Pfizer and Merck cost nearly $1,000 dollars per patient.

Studies have shown that the drug can cut hospital admissions due to COVID-19 by up to 30 per cent. 

“When you look at all that data together, it is very likely that fluvoxamine prevents hospitalization in patients with mild COVID-19,” Pai said. “So patients who are not yet on oxygen, and if our goal in this wave of the pandemic is to stop patients with COVID from ending up in those scarce hospital beds, then that I think is a very important finding, indeed.”_


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## Guitar101

HighNoon said:


> You're obviously unable to understand, as I pointed out before, that any vaccination you have received before now, does not recognize this latest mutation, and thus it doesn't matter if you're jabbed or not.


Do you take any satisfaction in the fact that the vaccine hesitant such as yourself have probably helped in the creation of the variant that your talking about? 😷


----------



## laristotle

CDC Report: Officials Knew Coronavirus Test Was Flawed But Released It Anyway


An unreleased CDC review obtained by NPR shows that lab officials knew an early coronavirus test kit had a high failure rate. They decided not to recall it and sent it to the nation's labs anyway.




www.npr.org




_On Feb. 6, a scientist in a small infectious disease lab on the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention campus in Atlanta was putting a coronavirus test kit through its final paces. The lab designed and built the diagnostic test in record time, and the little vials that contained necessary reagents to identify the virus were boxed up and ready to go. But NPR has learned the results of that final quality control test suggested something troubling — it said the kit could fail 33% of the time.

Under normal circumstances, that kind of result would stop a test in its tracks, half a dozen public and private lab officials told NPR. But an internal CDC review obtained by NPR confirms that lab officials decided to release the kit anyway. The revelation comes from a CDC internal review, known as a "root-cause analysis," which the agency conducted to understand why an early coronavirus test didn't work properly and wound up costing scientists precious weeks in the early days of a pandemic._






CDC's Laboratory Outreach Communication System (LOCS) | CDC







www.cdc.gov




_
After December 31, 2021, CDC will withdraw the request to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) of the CDC 2019-Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV) Real-Time RT-PCR Diagnostic Panel, the assay first introduced in February 2020 for detection of SARS-CoV-2 only. CDC is providing this advance notice for clinical laboratories to have adequate time to select and implement one of the many FDA-authorized alternatives._


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Pretty sure this is wrong. What I've seen is that although the current vaccines are less effective against Omicron - they're still 33% or so effective in reducing illness and 55% - 70% with a booster.
> 
> New study finds booster protection against Omicron drops at 10 weeks
> 
> You got something that says otherwise? It's early days again - I'd like to see your source.


What has been difficult to ascertain is how the "drop in effectiveness" is assessed. As far as I know - and please correct me if I'm wrong - it is NOT assessed by measuring circulating antibodies over time in a large number of people. Rather, the statistic seems to be all about how many people have gotten infected since their last shot, and how long ago that shot was.

The problem with this statistic is that it confounds what is explicitly due to declining vaccine effectiveness (no matter what else is going on) and what is due to people getting progressively sloppier in their health behaviours, under the assumption that they are magically protected forever by vaccination.

I emphasize, this is NOT to say that there is no decline in immunity. There is decline, but there is also "memory" in the immune system that can reactivate antibodies when re-exposed to the pathogen. As I've noted before, the challenge with Delta is that it replicates so quickly, one's immune system is forced to play catch-up once reactivated. And, while Omicron seems to not be quite as deadly, it also replicates VERY quickly, which is part of what makes it so contagious. If a person carries a large enough viral load, those around them are going to get it sooner or later. But the question is: Is that reflective of a decline in immune response, a change in preventative behaviour because we're all so damn tired of this we don't care anymore, or because the immune system is working just fine but this variant works _more_ efficiently, or some combination of the 3? As those public health folks watching this carefully will tell you, more people are catching it, but a much smaller percentage of them are ending up in hospital, and an even smaller percentage are dying, the overwhelming majority of them being unvaccinated. That tells me that the vaccine IS working as intended.

I paid a doorway visit to a neighbour across the street to thank her for the nice Christmas card and Timmy's gift card she included with it. Poking just a bit of her head around the door, she told me the entire household was down with Omicron. I offered her the remaining rapid test I had, but she said that the 4 of them were all down with the same symptoms, so she thought it would be a waste of a test. She said she felt better now, but the last few days were hell. And THAT is a vaccine doing its job, by allowing one's immune system to get some traction and get to work.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> *What has been difficult to ascertain is how the "drop in effectiveness" is assessed. As far as I know - and please correct me if I'm wrong - it is NOT assessed by measuring circulating antibodies over time in a large number of people. Rather, the statistic seems to be all about how many people have gotten infected since their last shot, and how long ago that shot was.*
> 
> The problem with this statistic is that it confounds what is explicitly due to declining vaccine effectiveness (no matter what else is going on) and what is due to people getting progressively sloppier in their health behaviours, under the assumption that they are magically protected forever by vaccination.
> 
> I emphasize, this is NOT to say that there is no decline in immunity. There is decline, but there is also "memory" in the immune system that can reactivate antibodies when re-exposed to the pathogen. As I've noted before, the challenge with Delta is that it replicates so quickly, one's immune system is forced to play catch-up once reactivated. And, while Omicron seems to not be quite as deadly, it also replicates VERY quickly, which is part of what makes it so contagious. If a person carries a large enough viral load, those around them are going to get it sooner or later. But the question is: Is that reflective of a decline in immune response, a change in preventative behaviour because we're all so damn tired of this we don't care anymore, or because the immune system is working just fine but this variant works _more_ efficiently, or some combination of the 3? As those public health folks watching this carefully will tell you, more people are catching it, but a much smaller percentage of them are ending up in hospital, and an even smaller percentage are dying, the overwhelming majority of them being unvaccinated. That tells me that the vaccine IS working as intended.
> 
> I paid a doorway visit to a neighbour across the street to thank her for the nice Christmas card and Timmy's gift card she included with it. Poking just a bit of her head around the door, she told me the entire household was down with Omicron. I offered her the remaining rapid test I had, but she said that the 4 of them were all down with the same symptoms, so she thought it would be a waste of a test. She said she felt better now, but the last few days were hell. And THAT is a vaccine doing its job, by allowing one's immune system to get some traction and get to work.


Actually I think this particular article refers to lab-based testing as opposed to "field testing". I'll have to assume you didn't read it


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Actually I think this particular article refers to lab-based testing as opposed to "field testing". I'll have to assume you didn't read it


You assume correctly, although I think many of the numbers being batted around in the news come from the sorts of results I noted. Again, we KNOW that circulating antibodies decline over time, but the memory cells retain a record and can spark production of new antibodies when re-exposed to the pathogen.

It's the old competence-performance distinction. We'd all do incredibly poorly on an intelligence test, if administered shortly after being awoken from a deep sleep, but that doesn't mean we're all idiots. Let us wake up and we'll show you what we've got under the hood. Our immune system may not be spitting out many Covid-specific antibodies if we haven't been recently exposed to it or been recently vaccinated. But that doesn't mean we couldn't kick into high gear upon re-exposure.

EDIT: Reading the article just now, it IS pretty much as I had assumed and described. That is, they simply looked at likelihood of reinfection and presenting to hospital after X weeks since vaccination with A, B, or C. The article notes that it is likely an underestimate of likelihood of reinfection, since many could have been reinfected after vaccination, but not been symptomatic enough to feel the need to go to hospital; I.E., got sick but the investigators didn't know about them doing so. It's a total of 215,000 individuals in the study, so I consider their probability-of-reinfection results to be reliable, within the margin of error created by the unreported instances. But they're not going to count antibodies in order to assess level for that many people. The data point is still going to be "Did you get sick, when did you get your last shot, and what vaccine was it?". That's not *nothing*, but it is an indirect measure of what's going on that cannot systematically exclude people taking greater risks as time marches on.


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## Midnight Rider

HighNoon said:


> You're obviously unable to understand, as I pointed out before, that any vaccination you have received before now, does not recognize this latest mutation, and thus it doesn't matter if you're jabbed or not.


Sure looks that way.
Data posted December 29, 2021.

Province of Manitoba | News Releases | COVID-19 Bulletin #548


----------



## allthumbs56

Midnight Rider said:


> Sure looks that way.
> Data posted December 29, 2021.
> 
> Province of Manitoba | News Releases | COVID-19 Bulletin #548
> View attachment 394935


Old and tired topic now. We all know the vaccine is reducing illness - not preventing it. That point was conceded long ago. Time to stop milking it - that teat's dry.


----------



## Lola

We have a confirmed case of COVID at work. We are still open to the public. This should not be! Who do I get in touch with to make sure my work environment is clear and free? The confirmed case was three days ago.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

allthumbs56 said:


> Old and tired topic now. We all know the vaccine is reducing illness - not preventing it. That point was conceded long ago. Time to stop milking it - that teat's dry.


Yup. I posted these several pages ago but I’ll throw a couple up as a reminder. There were dozens of these compiled at the one particular link.

The vaccine isn’t a magic bullet but it has to be obvious to even the most closed-minded person that it DOES make a difference. Or is this all attributed to dumb luck?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

2manyGuitars said:


> The vaccine isn’t a magic bullet but it has to be obvious to even the most closed-minded person that it DOES make a difference.


It's almost like knowing you're going to get hit by a truck, but have the choice of being able to bounce or break. I don't know why some people would choose break.


----------



## Paul Running

Like "Kills" on the side of a fighter plane


----------



## HighNoon

allthumbs56 said:


> Pretty sure this is wrong. What I've seen is that although the current vaccines are less effective against Omicron - they're still 33% or so effective in reducing illness and 55% - 70% with a booster.
> 
> New study finds booster protection against Omicron drops at 10 weeks
> 
> You got something that says otherwise? It's early days again - I'd like to see your source.


If you just read the article it suggests you're better off with the vax. But you also have to read the study.....you know, the stuff that hurts your head. And here we find interesting data.

Omicron features S gene target failure....mutations on the spike protein that's changed vaccine recognition...there's the difference from before. There were 132 hospitalizations....27 unvaccinated, 17 with the booster, 7 with one dose, 74 with the double jab. Of those 14 died aged 52 to 96. They don't give a breakdown on that number on vaxxed vs unvaxxed. It would be easy to assume, there's more people vaccinated than unvaxxed being admitted.

Now you have to take into account the % of the population....more people have been vaccinated than not. Also you have to look at risk factors like obesity, diabetes and stress (that has increasingly played a large role). And if anyone has been infected before. And what age. And that's a pretty small number of people to make any finite conclusions. It will have to play out over a longer period of time.

Now here's a preliminary study from S. Africa


https://secureservercdn.net/50.62.198.70/1mx.c5c.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/MEDRXIV-2021-268439v1-Sigal.pdf



So, Omicron escapes both those vaccinated and those previously infected, and up to 70-80% of South Africans have been infected. What they're looking for is cross reactive protection against Delta and other varieties of the virus. It suggests a fairly strong response after being exposed to Omicron.

Very small sample size but suggests Omicron could be a good thing in the long run. And it's relatively mild as reported by South African doctors who said it made little difference who showed up in the hosptial....vaxxed vs. unvaxxed. Mild here is the key word.

There should be a much bigger picture than just get vaxxed or lose your job and all these other bad positions that people are being forced into. What about building up your physical terrain....losing weight....walking and staying in shape and getting fresh air. And consider where you are on the scale of efficacy of the vaccine. And do you want to boost your system again and again.....vaccines are not linear in nature....more isn't always better. 

Perhaps I could have been a little more mellow, but I haven't seen a lot of mellow coming my way. It seems nuance has left the building along with Elvis.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> It's almost like knowing you're going to get hit by a truck, but have the choice of being able to bounce or break. I don't know why some people would choose break.


Some people like to play chicken


----------



## Jim DaddyO




----------



## allthumbs56

HighNoon said:


> If you just read the article it suggests you're better off with the vax. * But you also have to read the study.*....you know, the stuff that hurts your head. And here we find interesting data.
> 
> Omicron features S gene target failure....mutations on the spike protein that's changed vaccine recognition...there's the difference from before. There were 132 hospitalizations....27 unvaccinated, 17 with the booster, 7 with one dose, 74 with the double jab. Of those 14 died aged 52 to 96. They don't give a breakdown on that number on vaxxed vs unvaxxed. It would be easy to assume, there's more people vaccinated than unvaxxed being admitted.
> 
> Now you have to take into account the % of the population....more people have been vaccinated than not. Also you have to look at risk factors like obesity, diabetes and stress (that has increasingly played a large role). And if anyone has been infected before. And what age. And that's a pretty small number of people to make any finite conclusions. It will have to play out over a longer period of time.
> 
> Now here's a preliminary study from S. Africa
> 
> 
> https://secureservercdn.net/50.62.198.70/1mx.c5c.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/MEDRXIV-2021-268439v1-Sigal.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> So, Omicron escapes both those vaccinated and those previously infected, and up to 70-80% of South Africans have been infected. What they're looking for is cross reactive protection against Delta and other varieties of the virus. It suggests a fairly strong response after being exposed to Omicron.
> 
> Very small sample size but suggests Omicron could be a good thing in the long run. And it's relatively mild as reported by South African doctors who said it made little difference who showed up in the hosptial....vaxxed vs. unvaxxed. Mild here is the key word.
> 
> There should be a much bigger picture than just get vaxxed or lose your job and all these other bad positions that people are being forced into. What about building up your physical terrain....losing weight....walking and staying in shape and getting fresh air. And consider where you are on the scale of efficacy of the vaccine. And do you want to boost your system again and again.....vaccines are not linear in nature....more isn't always better.
> 
> Perhaps I could have been a little more mellow, but I haven't seen a lot of mellow coming my way. It seems nuance has left the building along with Elvis.


Sorry, I don't do "studies" outside of my realm of specialty. Fine as a mental exercise but I'll stick to what I know. Give me numbers - that's what I'm good at.


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Sorry, I don't do "studies" outside of my realm of specialty. Fine as a mental exercise but I'll stick to what I know. Give me numbers - that's what I'm good at.


The report is really more directed at virologists. The tough slogging is not the numbers - they're easy - it's the terminology. Who here knew what a "clade" is?

The bottom line is "Get your jab, wear your fricking mask, and avoid crowds and groups, especially in small spaces". It doesn't get much simpler. Every single one of those shifts the probabilities in your favour.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Paul Running said:


> Like "Kills" on the side of a fighter plane


Too bad it wasn’t a picture of a sheep. 😆


----------



## tomee2

HighNoon said:


> You're obviously unable to understand, as I pointed out before, that any vaccination you have received before now, does not recognize this latest mutation, and thus it doesn't matter if you're jabbed or not.


That's not true at all.


----------



## Midnight Rider

allthumbs56 said:


> Old and tired topic now. We all know the vaccine is reducing illness - not preventing it. That point was conceded long ago. Time to stop milking it - that teat's dry.


Granted, an individual who has been fully vaccinated and experiences a breakthrough case _may_ have reduced severe infection if contracting the virus but still retains the potential to spread the virus like an unvaccinated individual if they should contract the virus,... either way the reduction of the illness on the masses due to the current vaccine factor appears to have a diminishing effect on the overall spread potential,... which in turn increases illness.

I suppose this is why they just cancelled the 2022 IIHF World Juniors tournament.

That was the point of the previously posted Manitoba chart.

The enlightenment with all this is the survival rates have been and continue to be extremely high with this virus and more so with the advent of Omicron.

Cheer up,... have a 🍺


----------



## tomee2

Two shots of Pfizer vaccine 70 per cent effective against Omicron hospitalization, research shows


New research from South Africa has found the Pfizer vaccine is 70 per cent effective against the Omicron variant after two doses.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## HighNoon

allthumbs56 said:


> Sorry, I don't do "studies" outside of my realm of specialty. Fine as a mental exercise but I'll stick to what I know. Give me numbers - that's what I'm good at.


The numbers are in the studies. There's no Cole Notes. You gave me a link, a newspaper article....I read it. Then I looked at the actual report from the British Government that was in the article. That takes time and effort and found the relevant data. I didn't want you to feel mocked. And so it goes....


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> It's almost like knowing you're going to get hit by a truck, but have the choice of being able to bounce or break. I don't know why some people would choose break.


Because FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They sound like demented extras from _Braveheart_.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Midnight Rider said:


> ...but still retains the potential to spread the virus like an unvaccinated individual if they should contract the virus


Also wrong.
If I happen to get COVID, I’m not spreading “like an unvaccinated individual”.

My viral load would be much lower so it would be like I have some virus “falling out of my pockets”. An unvaccinated individual is walking around with a bucketful, grabbing handfuls and sprinkling it about.


----------



## Lola

So I got my COVID results. This is what I got.









Going once again tomorrow.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

There is still plenty of the Delta variant going around still. That's a nasty one. It hasn't been replaced by Omicron.


----------



## Eric Reesor

HighNoon said:


> If you just read the article it suggests you're better off with the vax. But you also have to read the study.....you know, the stuff that hurts your head. And here we find interesting data.
> 
> Omicron features S gene target failure....mutations on the spike protein that's changed vaccine recognition...there's the difference from before. There were 132 hospitalizations....27 unvaccinated, 17 with the booster, 7 with one dose, 74 with the double jab. Of those 14 died aged 52 to 96. They don't give a breakdown on that number on vaxxed vs unvaxxed. It would be easy to assume, there's more people vaccinated than unvaxxed being admitted.
> 
> Now you have to take into account the % of the population....more people have been vaccinated than not. Also you have to look at risk factors like obesity, diabetes and stress (that has increasingly played a large role). And if anyone has been infected before. And what age. And that's a pretty small number of people to make any finite conclusions. It will have to play out over a longer period of time.
> 
> Now here's a preliminary study from S. Africa
> 
> 
> https://secureservercdn.net/50.62.198.70/1mx.c5c.myftpupload.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/MEDRXIV-2021-268439v1-Sigal.pdf
> 
> 
> 
> So, Omicron escapes both those vaccinated and those previously infected, and up to 70-80% of South Africans have been infected. What they're looking for is cross reactive protection against Delta and other varieties of the virus. It suggests a fairly strong response after being exposed to Omicron.
> 
> Very small sample size but suggests Omicron could be a good thing in the long run. And it's relatively mild as reported by South African doctors who said it made little difference who showed up in the hosptial....vaxxed vs. unvaxxed. Mild here is the key word.
> 
> There should be a much bigger picture than just get vaxxed or lose your job and all these other bad positions that people are being forced into. What about building up your physical terrain....losing weight....walking and staying in shape and getting fresh air. And consider where you are on the scale of efficacy of the vaccine. And do you want to boost your system again and again.....vaccines are not linear in nature....more isn't always better.
> 
> Perhaps I could have been a little more mellow, but I haven't seen a lot of mellow coming my way. It seems nuance has left the building along with Elvis.


As I stated earlier; the omicron variant might very well create immunity to previous iterations of the covid-19 rna sequence.
It is entirely possible that the new variant will quickly replace the old versions as a function of the disease's evolution. It also makes sense, as a survival strategy, for the disease to become less deadly to the host organism as well as create immunity to competing older viruses of the same strain. In the case of this virus the evolution is much faster than other established rna viral diseases that are not as infectious and require more intimate contact to spread as single strand viruses like HCV, polio etc do.
I tend to be an optimist on this issue taking the view that the human race would not have a ghost of a chance against air born viruses like Covid if it instead evolved to become more deadly over time.


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> There is still plenty of the Delta variant going around still. That's a nasty one. It hasn't been replaced by Omicron.


Correct. It is just comprising a smaller proportion of all cases. And in other news, polio, malaria, tuberculosis, and measles haven't gone away either.


----------



## GuitarT

For those still gigging. 😉😁


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> There is still plenty of the Delta variant going around still. That's a nasty one. It hasn't been replaced by Omicron.


Your post reminded me of this story:









Omicron variant could outcompete Delta, South African disease expert says


The Omicron coronavirus variant detected in southern Africa could be the most likely candidate to displace the highly contagious Delta variant, the director of South Africa's communicable disease institute said on Tuesday.




www.reuters.com


----------



## allthumbs56

GuitarT said:


> For those still gigging. 😉😁


Ooooo - I need a couple, or three, or four, on my board 🥴


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> Your post reminded me of this story:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron variant could outcompete Delta, South African disease expert says
> 
> 
> The Omicron coronavirus variant detected in southern Africa could be the most likely candidate to displace the highly contagious Delta variant, the director of South Africa's communicable disease institute said on Tuesday.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.reuters.com


Not at all a critique of you, but my sense is that the term "outcompete" is being used in a different way than popular usage. It's not that Delta is "eliminated from the playoffs by Omicron". Rather, by virtue of greater contagion, a progressively smaller share of cases will be Delta, and a mushrooming number of cases are Omicron, but Delta is not eliminated, just sitting at the back of the classroom.

At the same time, if one is laid up at home or in hospital with one variant, they'll not be galavanting around and exposing themselves to a different one. In statistical terms, it's a sort of sampling-without-replacement scenario.


----------



## ZeroGravity

Just a bit of added perspective that the current situation isn’t entirely about the hospitalizations due to COVID, which are quite low in Ottawa at the moment. Due to COVID-related staff shortages, the Queensway-Carleton Hospital has announced slow downs in other services.









Queensway Carleton Hospital - Newsroom







www.qch.on.ca


----------



## allthumbs56

"Fun" with numbers: If the daily cases in Canada continue to grow by 20% over the day before then our entire population will have been exposed by January 28th. 😕


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> a progressively smaller share of cases will be Delta, and a mushrooming number of cases are Omicron, but Delta is not eliminated,


....and you don't get to choose which one you're exposed to.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Pfftt....
Only 80 to 90 percent effective? Why bother if I can still get it?


----------



## mhammer

ZeroGravity said:


> Just a bit of added perspective that the current situation isn’t entirely about the hospitalizations due to COVID, which are quite low in Ottawa at the moment. Due to COVID-related staff shortages, the Queensway-Carleton Hospital has announced slow downs in other services.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Queensway Carleton Hospital - Newsroom
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.qch.on.ca


In the earliest days, we were, of course, riveted to the number of Covid fatalities. It had not yet affected as large a segment of the populace as is currently true, but the odds of terrible death among those who contracted it were enough to spark action. Still, I suspect the mentality was "_I_ don't want to die", and not "I need to help the collective". 

At this point, the odds of terrible death, while not absent, are substantially reduced, due to developments in treatment, and the less serious symptoms of the most common current variant.. That's great, but at the same time, health-care capacity has been reduced because of how many had died, left the profession due to burnout or fear, how many had to stay home with children, and how many simply can't report for duty. We don't have numbers on staff reductions in other first responders - firefighters, paramedics, police - resulting from the pandemic. And these could simply be folks who cannot report for work while they take 2 weeks to recover in order to meet physical ability requirements of the job. I'm sure the numbers exist somewhere but they don't reach the headlines the way nursing shortages do.

The upshot is that serious risk to one's person, from contracting the current variant (and there may well be more on the way) may be lower, but unfortunately indirect risk has replaced it. It is hard to think of more dangerous locations than waiting in the crowded emergency room of a hospital or walk-in clinic (those that might still be open). If all the others waiting in there had sprained ankles, that would be one thing, but at the moment it's basically a Petri dish with a rich pathogen stew. And the hospitals where we go are losing their breath. So, the impact of a less-deadly-but-more-common virus is that it is sucking away the very resources for tending to all those other thousands of threats to our health that have not taken a vacation.

We've often seen during natural catastrophes like floods or wildfires that provinces X and Y send people to help province Z. That's great...when a catastrophe is highly localized. Trouble is, when a catastrophe is national, and international, nobody really has manpower they can spare to loan other regions or countries.


----------



## Fred Gifford

funny, I took my wife to the Hospital today for her Bi-Weekly Zometa infusion and as always they asked for my proof of Double Vaccination and Gov't Photo I.D. I noticed they never asked for proof of Three Vaccinations? While waiting a certain 24/7 Toronto News Station was left on (with the volume on unfortunately) as I avoid the television due to a never ending slew of successive bummers. It seemed they were using the same indoctrination techniques as mind control (formerly called Brain Washing) a never ending onslaught of horrific news blurbs repeated over and over and over ... I think I'll pass on the whole hysteric bit .. I feel just fine


----------



## allthumbs56

Fred Gifford said:


> funny, I took my wife to the Hospital today for her Bi-Weekly Zometa infusion and as always they asked for my proof of Double Vaccination and Gov't Photo I.D. I noticed they never asked for proof of Three Vaccinations? While waiting a certain 24/7 Toronto News Station was left on (with the volume on unfortunately) as I avoid the television due to a never ending slew of successive bummers. It seemed they were using the same indoctrination techniques as mind control (formerly called Brain Washing) a never ending onslaught of horrific news blurbs repeated over and over and over ... I think I'll pass on the whole hysteric bit .. I feel just fine


So, you're double-vaxxed and tired of hearing about Covid? It's a fast-growing club, my friend


----------



## mhammer

Fred Gifford said:


> funny, I took my wife to the Hospital today for her Bi-Weekly Zometa infusion and as always they asked for my proof of Double Vaccination and Gov't Photo I.D. I noticed they never asked for proof of Three Vaccinations? While waiting a certain 24/7 Toronto News Station was left on (with the volume on unfortunately) as I avoid the television due to a never ending slew of successive bummers. It seemed they were using the same indoctrination techniques as mind control (formerly called Brain Washing) a never ending onslaught of horrific news blurbs repeated over and over and over ... I think I'll pass on the whole hysteric bit .. I feel just fine


Never mistake the actual news copy for the cumulative effect of what the 24hr news-cycle imposes on the need to fill up space provided by a 24hr broadcast day, the diminished budgets for having reporters to cover the _entire_ news landscape, and the need to retain advertisers.


----------



## BMW-KTM

The Vatican just released a press memo indicating the Pope is considering implementing booster baptisms in order to be fully baptized.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## allthumbs56

Well, just as it looks like it's at it's worst we've been told we're on our own.



https://ca.yahoo.com/news/ontario-restrict-pcr-testing-covid-203123961.html



Confusing? You bet. What was it Trump said? "If you don't test then you don't have cases" - something like that.


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## Mikev7305

The PCR's EUA expires tomorrow, so instead of saying "we can't use this test anymore because it's authorization has run out", they are blaming it on too many cases to handle it. While I believe that yes there are too many cases for the province's testing capacity, it would be nice if for once they just told the truth on why they aren't offering it anymore. The "researchers" have known this day was coming since the summer


----------



## laristotle

Mikev7305 said:


> The PCR's EUA expires tomorrow







__





CDC's Laboratory Outreach Communication System (LOCS) | CDC







www.cdc.gov




_After December 31, 2021, CDC will withdraw the request to the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) of the CDC 2019-Novel Coronavirus (2019-nCoV) Real-Time RT-PCR Diagnostic Panel, the assay first introduced in February 2020 for detection of SARS-CoV-2 only. CDC is providing this advance notice for clinical laboratories to have adequate time to select and implement one of the many FDA-authorized alternatives. _


Mikev7305 said:


> The "researchers" have known this day was coming since the summer


Before that.








CDC Report: Officials Knew Coronavirus Test Was Flawed But Released It Anyway


An unreleased CDC review obtained by NPR shows that lab officials knew an early coronavirus test kit had a high failure rate. They decided not to recall it and sent it to the nation's labs anyway.




www.npr.org


----------



## Mikev7305

It's also convenient timing to stop the testing as the last couple days the percentage of cases in the vaxxed was more than the general population of vaxxed people. So now the vaxxed are more likely to have covid than unvaxxed.... Hmmmm 🤔🤔🤔


----------



## keto

Mikev7305 said:


> It's also convenient timing to stop the testing as the last couple days the percentage of cases in the vaxxed was more than the general population of vaxxed people. So now the vaxxed are more likely to have covid than unvaxxed.... Hmmmm 🤔🤔🤔


Source?


----------



## mhammer

Mikev7305 said:


> It's also convenient timing to stop the testing as the last couple days the percentage of cases in the vaxxed was more than the general population of vaxxed people. So now the vaxxed are more likely to have covid than unvaxxed.... Hmmmm 🤔🤔🤔


That's an "interesting" way of spinning it. With a little more than five times as many people fully or partly vaxxed as unvaxxed, yes, if 20% of the vaxxed (about 85% of everyone) got infected, and 50% of the unvaxxed got infected, in terms of simple head-count that would _still _mean roughly 2.5 times as many vaxxed persons were infected as unvaxxed, although in terms of risk it's still *far* better to be vaxxed.

ALL clinical tests entail some potential for false alarms and false negatives. Every year, we hear about people who were treated or left untreated for something that was misdiagnosed. And in those cases, there was a lot more involved than a 15-minute litmus test. Let us not underestimate the public pressure to be able to find out NOW if one can return to work, go on a flight, return home, or go to school. I doubt there was anyone willing to wait another year for the development of a test that had fewer errors.


----------



## Mikev7305

keto said:


> Source











Ontario sets daily record of 10,436 new COVID cases since the pandemic began | Globalnews.ca


Wednesday's count of 10,436 new cases edged out the previous single-day record reported on Christmas Day when 10,412 new cases were recorded.




www.google.com





1514 unvaxxed
8221 fully vaxxed
This total is 9735 cases
1514 of 9735 is 15.5%
8221 of 9735 is 84.5%
Total vaxxed in the province is 77%

When the percentages of general population match the daily cases, the vaccine did not affect transmission I'm favour of the vaxxed.

See! We're all equal again what a beautiful world!

And yes I understand it stops severe infection and hospitalization... for generally unhealthy people. I'm healthy and young so I'll be just fine thank you.


----------



## allthumbs56

Mikev7305 said:


> Ontario sets daily record of 10,436 new COVID cases since the pandemic began | Globalnews.ca
> 
> 
> Wednesday's count of 10,436 new cases edged out the previous single-day record reported on Christmas Day when 10,412 new cases were recorded.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.google.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1514 unvaxxed
> 8221 fully vaxxed
> This total is 9735 cases
> 1514 of 9735 is 15.5%
> 8221 of 9735 is 84.5%
> Total vaxxed in the province is 77%
> 
> When the percentages of general population match the daily cases, the vaccine did not affect transmission I'm favour of the vaxxed.
> 
> See! We're all equal again what a beautiful world!
> 
> And yes I understand it stops severe infection and hospitalization... for generally unhealthy people. I'm healthy and young so I'll be just fine thank you.


True. Not news. The focus turns to severity now

‘Cautious optimism’ builds as Omicron appears milder than feared | National Post

_"What’s more, Jacobs found that severe cases were reserved almost exclusively to the unvaccinated. This is backed up by province-level data. As of Dec. 29, *the rate of unvaccinated Ontarians admitted to intensive care as a result of COVID-19 was more than 20 times higher* than for Ontarians with at least two doses."_​
Apparently it still pays to be vaccinated.


----------



## jb welder

Mikev7305 said:


> And yes I understand it stops severe infection and hospitalization... for generally unhealthy people. I'm healthy and young so I'll be just fine thank you.


It also affects transmission rates. 
Right now the 'back of napkin' numbers I'm seeing thrown around are that omicron is half as likely to cause hospitalization. But at least 3 times the infection cases as worst peaks last year. (they don't have enough tests to keep up)
The math is pretty simple as far as what will happen in the ICU's. Healthy and young you'll be fine as long as you don't need the hospital for anything else, like a car accident or who knows what.


----------



## zztomato

jb welder said:


> Healthy and young you'll be fine as long as you don't need the hospital for anything else, like a car accident or who knows what.


Yeah, that's what the "I'll be fine" crowd seems to forget. 
All those folks who need elective surgery for a hip or whatever will be doomed to live in pain for years longer than normal long wait times. Bad situation made worse. But hey, if you are young and healthy, who gives a fuck about the rest, right?


----------



## ZeroGravity

A public health person, who I can’t recall which one, succinctly said with regards to only a small number of Omicron cases are serious, people are are about to realize that even a small percentage of a a very large number, is still a large number.


----------



## ZeroGravity

zztomato said:


> Yeah, that's what the "I'll be fine" crowd seems to forget.
> All those folks who need elective surgery for a hip or whatever will be doomed to live in pain for years longer than normal long wait times. Bad situation made worse. But hey, if you are young and healthy, who gives a fuck about the rest, right?


It would be extra awful to be someone waiting for cataract or orthopaedic surgery or others along those lines. Not life threatening but certainly life debilitating.


----------



## Midnight Rider

2manyGuitars said:


> Also wrong.
> If I happen to get COVID, I’m not spreading “like an unvaccinated individual”.
> 
> My viral load would be much lower so it would be like I have some virus “falling out of my pockets”. An unvaccinated individual is walking around with a bucketful, grabbing handfuls and sprinkling it about.


Where's the peer reviewed global study that vetted this affirmation?


----------



## Midnight Rider

allthumbs56 said:


> Give me numbers - that's what I'm good at.


LOL,... I don't think so. People here have been posting numbers that clearly show the opposite of what you and many others claim,... and still you dispute the facts,... but it is entertaining to say the least.


----------



## Midnight Rider

HighNoon said:


> Perhaps I could have been a little more mellow, but I haven't seen a lot of mellow coming my way. It seems nuance has left the building along with Elvis.


There is no logical reason to be mellow with some of the crew here on this thread. Hold your ground as your logic well surpasses that of your adversaries here.

Some prefer to let their minds be captured and used against them.


----------



## Midnight Rider

DR.Robert Malone, the inventor of mRNA.

December 18, 2021: Inventor of mRNA vaccine platform: omicron is a Christmas present to us


October 15, 2021





There will be a small group here who will watch and listen,... with the large majority closing their minds and eyes and once again wandering off aimlessly into the night.

However, I will wish all a 'Happy New Year', (yes,... even you ZZtomato), along with the wishes of an even more normalized 2022,... which I believe is on its way.

Cheers, 🍺


----------



## keto

Malone's been debunked as a quack, over and over and over. Dunno if he's off his meds, just out of date/touch, being paid as a shit disturber....who knows, but what he's presenting isn't modern medicine.

Dunno why I bother any more, everyone who cares knows it.


----------



## Midnight Rider

keto said:


> Malone's been debunked as a quack, over and over and over. Dunno if he's off his meds, just out of date/touch, being paid as a shit disturber....who knows, but what he's presenting isn't modern medicine.
> 
> Dunno why I bother any more, everyone who cares knows it.


Yeah,... he's a real dumb quack, lol
Seems like they sure have you where they want you,...Happy New Year anyways.

More fun than a barrel of monkeys around here, 🙈🙉🙊


----------



## keto

Midnight Rider said:


> Yeah,... he's a real dumb quack, lol
> Seems like they sure have you where they want you,...Happy New Year anyways.
> 
> More fun than a barrel of monkeys around here, 🙈🙉🙊


Have you read any of the debunking, or is it just a one way street with you? I can say for sure, I have read extensively on the doc. What do you say to those in the vast majority of the medical world who disagree with him?


----------



## player99

Dr. Pimple Popper will squeeze the covid out of you.


----------



## colchar

zztomato said:


> Yeah, that's what the "I'll be fine" crowd seems to forget.
> All those folks who need elective surgery for a hip or whatever will be doomed to live in pain for years longer than normal long wait times. Bad situation made worse. But hey, if you are young and healthy, who gives a fuck about the rest, right?


During the first wave I saw a lot of comments from the young that it was a good thing because it was killing older people. They even had some fucked up nickname for it.


----------



## Wardo

colchar said:


> ... it was a good thing because it was killing older people.


I think the government here will tacitly adpot that hypothesis as health care is going to be expensive for an aging population. And after all, how are they going to make good on their promise to kick in a hundred billion to fund green energy iniatives in developing countries if they have to pay out the cash to look after old people.


----------



## Choo5440

oh yeah, kill off all of the old people, while creating long term health complications for everyone with damaged lungs and other organ damage. short term cost cutting! 🤦‍♂️


----------



## mhammer

zztomato said:


> Yeah, that's what the "I'll be fine" crowd seems to forget.
> All those folks who need elective surgery for a hip or whatever will be doomed to live in pain for years longer than normal long wait times. Bad situation made worse. But hey, if you are young and healthy, who gives a fuck about the rest, right?


The irony is that many take the availability of a "free" health care system for granted, neglecting that it exists through the collective effort of all our taxes, and would not ever spring up on its own in the absence of that collective effort.

But to offer any value to citizens, it has to not only exist but be _accessible_ as well, and that *also* depends on our collective effort not to overburden it with cases that are preventable. I.E., individual and collective efforts to be and remain as healthy as possible, so that should we not be healthy, there is someone to diagnose and restore us back to health. That includes not only older adults with "an underlying health condition", but much younger people with a sprain, fracture, drug reaction, or anything else that prevents them from going to work/school or having fun with friends.


----------



## GuitarT

Mikev7305 said:


> And yes I understand it stops severe infection and hospitalization... for generally unhealthy people. I'm healthy and young so I'll be just fine thank you.


For what it's worth, all five people I know who were hospitalized for Covid were fit and healthy and between the ages of 29 and 59. Two of them, the 29 year old and the 59 year old, still suffer from long term effects. Both were fit, healthy, active people with no other pre existing health issues. One is still on oxygen full time and may require a lung transplant. He went from being an active cyclist, hiker and canoeist to being able to only walk short distances with a cane and his oxygen tank. While being "healthy and young" certainly ups your odds it by no means guarantees you'll "be just fine".


----------



## Farmboyjo

mhammer said:


> The irony is that many take the availability of a "free" health care system for granted, neglecting that it exists through the collective effort of all our taxes, and would not ever spring up on its own in the absence of that collective effort.
> 
> But to offer any value to citizens, it has to not only exist but be _accessible_ as well, and that *also* depends on our collective effort not to overburden it with cases that are preventable.


Regardless of vaccine viewpoint, I find this a very good reminder about how our current HC system works. I’ve never seen it put so clearly before. Thanks.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Over 18K cases reported in Ontario. The expression "that escalated quickly" comes to mind. They are not going to report classroom infections any more. More than likely to cover up the ill handling of this situation.


----------



## mhammer

It wasn't that long ago that, as an Ottawan, I could be proud that our daily case count was frequently well under 30, and also well under the roughly 9-10% of the provincial case count that the Ottawa population would be expected to represent, if contagion were equally distributed. Now, the city case count is in the sort of numbers that the provincial case count used to be, to make us mutter "Tsk, tsk, those Toronto folks". We're still proportionately low here, but the rapid spread of Omicron is more than alarming. Maybe it won't kill you, but if a co-worker asked "Mind if I sneeze over your lunch? You'll only feel like micro-waved dog crap for 4 or 5 days.", I doubt any of us would be saying "Sure, go ahead, I have some shows I want to binge-watch anyway."


----------



## laristotle

FUREY: Ontario's COVID response evolving big time -- here's what you need to know


"We have to pivot." Dr. Kieran Moore, Ontario's chief medical officer, said that line more than once during his Thursday press conference.




torontosun.com




_Another big move was the acknowledgement that Ontario’s daily reported COVID hospitalization numbers haven’t been telling the full story. Dr. Moore confirmed that about 50% of them are currently for people who aren’t actually suffering from COVID but have gone to hospital with something else, like a broken leg, and just happened to test positive for the virus. _


----------



## FatStrat2

While I wouldn't appreciate the sneeze part, I would actually welcome catching the big 'O' (or should I say wimpy 'o'). It's been 2 years since I caught anything. With weak variants such as this, immune systems - like muscles - need exercise.


----------



## GuitarT

FatStrat2 said:


> While I wouldn't appreciate the sneeze part, I would actually welcome catching the big 'O' (or should I say wimpy 'o'). It's been 2 years since I caught anything. With weak variants such as this, immune systems - like muscles - need exercise.


I've been saying the same thing. Despite being out and about and going to work through this whole pandemic I haven't had so much as a runny nose for over two years. That can't be good, I typically get a good cold or cold related illness at least twice a year. I've never gone this long without being sick ever at any point on my life.


----------



## colchar

GuitarT said:


> I've been saying the same thing. Despite being out and about and going to work through this whole pandemic I haven't had so much as a runny nose for over two years. That can't be good, I typically get a good cold or cold related illness at least twice a year. I've never gone this long without being sick ever at any point on my life.



I am awaiting Covid test results. I took the test Christmas Eve (during the day) and still do not have results. But I think it might be a sinus infection as I've had three since Covid started. In the decade before Covid I might have had one, but I've had three in just over 18 months. I think it is because of the masks. I see an ENT specialist next month for something unrelated, but am going to ask him about that.


----------



## mhammer

GuitarT said:


> I've been saying the same thing. Despite being out and about and going to work through this whole pandemic I haven't had so much as a runny nose for over two years. That can't be good, I typically get a good cold or cold related illness at least twice a year. I've never gone this long without being sick ever at any point on my life.


If you're eager for some other sort of challenge to your immune system, I recommend taking public transit. Since I stopped taking it, after retiring 4 years ago, I've never been so healthy in my entire life.

I'm quite confident that all those other bugs, we used to catch in less dramatic numbers, have not gone the way of the dodo. Just like Richard Marx, they are all "right here waiting for you".


----------



## FatStrat2

^ That's probably a very good idea.

Unfortunately or not, my boss has given me free parking where it would normally cost me $21/day for the express reason of avoiding transit. His parents are in their 90s and he's worried.


----------



## GuitarT

mhammer said:


> If you're eager for some other sort of challenge to your immune system, I recommend taking public transit. Since I stopped taking it, after retiring 4 years ago, I've never been so healthy in my entire life.
> 
> I'm quite confident that all those other bugs, we used to catch in less dramatic numbers, have not gone the way of the dodo. Just like Richard Marx, they are all "right here waiting for you".


My workplace used to be bad. It seemed there was always someone sneezing and snorking, especially in the winter and people off sick was just part of our routine. That just hasn't happened since Covid started. I work in an environment with about 20 to 30 other people and everyone is masked and distanced where possible. Since Covid protocols were put into our workplace our sick time rates are down about 90%. I'm sure some of it is because of people no longer abusing the system (not worth it to phone in sick if you're not unless you like waiting in line to get a swab shoved up your nose) but quite honestly hardly anyone has been sick with anything other than a few actual Covid cases.


----------



## Wardo

GuitarT said:


> .... hardly anyone has been sick with anything other than a few actual Covid cases.


Same at our office. No one has had a cold or flu since this started but my assistant and I were really sick in early Jan. 2020 and we think we mighta had the 19. That said though, a good few people in our extended range had covid and one died.


----------



## mhammer

You two aren't the only ones to note a reduction in colds and flu. Hospitals have also noted a dramatic reduction in flu cases. Once people started getting a little more conscientious about their snot and spittle, there was less flu being spread around.


----------



## Midnight Rider

keto said:


> Have you read any of the debunking, or is it just a one way street with you? I can say for sure, I have read extensively on the doc. What do you say to those in the vast majority of the medical world who disagree with him?


Provide a list of the doctors debunking Dr.Malone. I will then do some research on their background to check if they have certain motives to attack and ostracize Dr. Malone.

Hopefully the list you provide does include the many not for prime time mainstream sheeple doctors who follow each other around the pond like a bait ball.

Lets see the list and links to their research.


----------



## keto

I figured as much.


----------



## tomee2

The Vaccine Scientist Spreading Vaccine Misinformation


Robert Malone claims to have invented mRNA technology. Why is he trying so hard to undermine its use?




www.theatlantic.com





Won't do any good... but 5 minutes on google is enough to bring up all you need to know.


----------



## mhammer

tomee2 said:


> The Vaccine Scientist Spreading Vaccine Misinformation
> 
> 
> Robert Malone claims to have invented mRNA technology. Why is he trying so hard to undermine its use?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.theatlantic.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Won't do any good... but 5 minutes on google is enough to bring up all you need to know.


The picture that emerges is of a moderately bright guy, possibly on the way to becoming another Valery Fabrikant. Even if he doesn't (and let's hope that's true), he seems bent on vengeance of a kind; almost a sort of if-you-kids-won't-let-me-be-captain-I'm-taking-my-ball-and-going-home. It's also the case that these days, "inventor of" is generally not a very accurate descriptor of anyone and anything (not even the miracle of Flex-Seal), and tends to be something that journalists, eager to spice up copy, will turn to.

But enough character assassination. We know why emergency-use approval was quick, and it was perfectly reasonable. "Abundance of caution" would have traditionally waited a little bit longer, but it was overshadowed by a greater abundance of public desperation. Regulatory bodies would be seriously disinclined to approve anything that might blow up in their faces.


----------



## tdotrob

GuitarT said:


> For what it's worth, all five people I know who were hospitalized for Covid were fit and healthy and between the ages of 29 and 59. Two of them, the 29 year old and the 59 year old, still suffer from long term effects. Both were fit, healthy, active people with no other pre existing health issues. One is still on oxygen full time and may require a lung transplant. He went from being an active cyclist, hiker and canoeist to being able to only walk short distances with a cane and his oxygen tank. While being "healthy and young" certainly ups your odds it by no means guarantees you'll "be just fine".


I posted earlier in the thread about my young and healthy former training partner in MMA. Guy is a health nut and had no existing conditions and was also a big time anti-vaxx and covid denier. His tune changed big time when he almost died to the point where he publicly apologized for spreading all the same non sense the dipshits in this thread spin.


----------



## Midnight Rider

keto said:


> I figured as much.


So did I,... you just can't provide the list can you,... no meat on the bone.
🎶"Nothing chaaaannnges on New Year's Day"🎶


----------



## Midnight Rider

While we're waiting for keto's possible list you may be interested in this link to a 3 hour video interview with Dr. Robert Malone that was sent to me by an open minded wise individual.

Remember now,... those here who have difficulty with hearing both sides of the story may find this offensive so view at your own discretion,... don't want to hear about any strokes and such.

Grab a bucket of popcorn and your favourite beverage.

Rumble: Joe Rogan, JRE-1757, Robert Malone COVID

Spotify link: https://open.spotify.com/episode/3SCsueX2bZdbEzRtKOCEyT


----------



## laristotle

Midnight Rider said:


>


24:38 Malone;

_The policy that's being implemented is one in which no discussion of the risks are allowed, because by definition they will illicit vaccine hesitance. So it can't be discussed. But, that's the fundamental background, that's the backbone of informed consent. So informed consent is not only not happening, it's being actively blocked._

Bottom line .. follow the money.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Over 18K cases reported in Ontario. The expression "that escalated quickly" comes to mind. They are not going to report classroom infections any more. More than likely to cover up the ill handling of this situation.


Ill handling? What more could they have done? Nobody anywhere expected a variant this virulent.


----------



## 2manyGuitars




----------



## laristotle

2manyGuitars said:


> View attachment 395512


With all due respect, that's a stupid comparison.


----------



## keto

What a bunch of crap. It's not a secret there are risks. A family friend was the woman here in Alberta who died from an AZ shot. Myocarditis is a thing, a mild one that's recovered from almost 100%, tho the only athletes with problems locally are the 2 Oilers with myocarditis they got from the disease, not the shot. And they seem to be out much more long term than anything I've heard about from vaccine myocarditis, not saying it's 0 because, well, people are all different, right?

Show me the policy, by the way, that's being implemented, would you? Anyone? Beuhler?


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> Ill handling? What more could they have done? Nobody anywhere expected a variant this virulent.


It's not just this variant. It's the whole deal. Reaction to this MORE virulent variant is almost the opposite of what happened previously, and what happened previously was too little, too late with half assed measures. Right at the start of all this I was opining that there should have been severe lock downs and restricted movement. Now?, well, just look at the policy on school closures even though this variant makes younger people more likely to get it. If there was ever a time for remote learning, it's now, while these kids are more in danger of catching it than before when it was a "boomer virus".


----------



## tonewoody

laristotle said:


> 24:38 Malone;
> 
> _The policy that's being implemented is one in which no discussion of the risks are allowed, because by definition they will illicit vaccine hesitance. So it can't be discussed. But, that's the fundamental background, that's the backbone of informed consent. So informed consent is not only not happening, it's being actively blocked._
> 
> Bottom line .. follow the money.


True. Joe is raking it in with his conspiracy hype.


----------



## mhammer

keto said:


> What a bunch of crap. It's not a secret there are risks. A family friend was the woman here in Alberta who died from an AZ shot. Myocarditis is a thing, a mild one that's recovered from almost 100%, tho the only athletes with problems locally are the 2 Oilers with myocarditis they got from the disease, not the shot. And they seem to be out much more long term than anything I've heard about from vaccine myocarditis, not saying it's 0 because, well, people are all different, right?
> 
> Show me the policy, by the way, that's being implemented, would you? Anyone? Beuhler?


Noted earlier, animal research indicates much higher risk of myocarditis when vaccine gets administered intravenously than intramuscularly, and the vaccine enters the bloodstream (where it necessarily gets into direct contact with heart muscle). Not that anyone _intends_ to vaccinate intravenously. It just happens unintentionally once in a blue moon, because you can't see if there are any blood vessels in the way when you stick a needle into someone's shoulder. Happily, 99% of the time, muscle IS all you hit. But if one wants that 99% to be 100%, the failsafe is to aspirate - pulling back on the plunger to see if there is any blood in the fluid. If there is, you take the needle out, find another spot, aspirate again, and with verification that one hasn't unintentionally punctured a blood vessel, *then* you inject. When I went for my booster the other week, I asked the nurse if they aspirate. She said it wasn't considered best practice these days, because it is uncomfortable for the patient, but she would be happy to oblige me, and did.

Why is it not considered a best practice/ I don't know, but if I can speculate a bit, the reasoning might be that if the risk stemming from unintended intravenous injection is so low, the public distaste for potentially having to have a needle stuck in them twice is so high, and the need to get needles in arms so great, you bite the bullet and use the most expedient method you have.

I suspect that what is getting attributed to the vaccine per se is really a result of sub-optimal practice in administration. I won't say "bad" practice, because as I say, the overwhelming majority of occasions result in vaccine going only into muscle tissue, as intended, and the motivation for not aspirating well-intended. But practice can always be improved, and we can see the public impact on vaccine uptake of an _extremely_ small number of cases that scare people into being avoidant. The rate of myocarditis is extremely low, however it can theoretically be even lower if those injecting took steps to avoid getting vaccine into the bloodstream. Feel free to ask the person poking you when you go for your booster.


----------



## player99

mhammer said:


> Noted earlier, animal research indicates much higher risk of myocarditis when vaccine gets administered intravenously than intramuscularly, and the vaccine enters the bloodstream (where it necessarily gets into direct contact with heart muscle). Not that anyone _intends_ to vaccinate intravenously. It just happens unintentionally once in a blue moon, because you can't see if there are any blood vessels in the way when you stick a needle into someone's shoulder. Happily, 99% of the time, muscle IS all you hit. But if one wants that 99% to be 100%, the failsafe is to aspirate - pulling back on the plunger to see if there is any blood in the fluid. If there is, you take the needle out, find another spot, aspirate again, and with verification that one hasn't unintentionally punctured a blood vessel, *then* you inject. When I went for my booster the other week, I asked the nurse if they aspirate. She said it wasn't considered best practice these days, because it is uncomfortable for the patient, but she would be happy to oblige me, and did.
> 
> Why is it not considered a best practice/ I don't know, but if I can speculate a bit, the reasoning might be that if the risk stemming from unintended intravenous injection is so low, the public distaste for potentially having to have a needle stuck in them twice is so high, and the need to get needles in arms so great, you bite the bullet and use the most expedient method you have.
> 
> I suspect that what is getting attributed to the vaccine per se is really a result of sub-optimal practice in administration. I won't say "bad" practice, because as I say, the overwhelming majority of occasions result in vaccine going only into muscle tissue, as intended, and the motivation for not aspirating well-intended. But practice can always be improved, and we can see the public impact on vaccine uptake of an _extremely_ small number of cases that scare people into being avoidant. The rate of myocarditis is extremely low, however it can theoretically be even lower if those injecting took steps to avoid getting vaccine into the bloodstream. Feel free to ask the person poking you when you go for your booster.


It may be hard on the nurse's hand to pull back when giving shots all day long day after day.


----------



## mhammer

Potentially, and that's a sensible consideration. But it's not like it's a physically demanding action. We're talking pulling the plunger back maybe a half-inch. And consider that such best practices are generally predicated on administering many fewer vaccinations a day than the typical nurse has to administer these days. After all, it _has_ been a while since there has been any pandemic.


----------



## Midnight Rider

2manyGuitars said:


> View attachment 395512


I always install winter tires on my vehicles,... and when living in the far reaches of northern Ontario my winter tires are studded. Good to know the available winter tires have been put through stringent R&D, rigorous testing and safety trials before they are manufactured and sold to the general public who can drive the icy and snowy roads in confidence and not slide down that slippery slope into the ditch. I feel the same about the brakes on my vehicles,... I prefer to know that I can stop well before any potential hazard that presents itself on the horizon ahead.


----------



## laristotle

keto said:


> Show me the policy, by the way, that's being implemented, would you? Anyone? Beuhler?


Go ask Dr. Bob. He stated it. or, you can watch the vid and listen to him explain it?


----------



## keto

laristotle said:


> Go ask Dr. Bob. He stated it. or, you can watch the vid and listen to him explain it?


Dear God, let us hope this guy isn't a policy maker. I meant show me something showing what policy we're talking about it, who's implementing it? If it's policy, it's been reported. Right?


----------



## Wardo




----------



## keto

The other thing is, he isn't what he says he is, so why is anyone listening to him in the first place? Wiki isn't per se what I consider a source, but it is a place to read about people, things, and etc, and they LIST sources. Go give that a try.


----------



## Wardo

mhammer said:


> Potentially, and that's a sensible consideration. But it's not like it's a physically demanding action. We're talking pulling the plunger back maybe a half-inch.


You were trolled on that one ... lol


----------



## Midnight Rider

Wardo said:


> View attachment 395563


Snnniiiiiiiiiifffffff,... ahhhhhhhh,... I like the smell of fresh rubber in the winter.


----------



## Midnight Rider

keto said:


> The other thing is, he isn't what he says he is, so why is anyone listening to him in the first place? Wiki isn't per se what I consider a source, but it is a place to read about people, things, and etc, and they LIST sources. Go give that a try.


You first,... we're still waiting for your list from several past posts,... or is this a case of do as I say,... not as I do?


----------



## laristotle

keto said:


> I meant show me something showing what policy we're talking about it, who's implementing it?


It's kinda unwritten, but everyone knows about it.
That is, anyone that questions or speaks out against the narrative must be deplatformed, denounced, shamed, lose their careers, get cancelled etc.

Since you've read extensively up on him and have had a little time now, can you show us a list of the vast majority of the medical world who disagree with him? 

And seriously, watch the vid. It'll answer the questions that you always ask.


----------



## FatStrat2

Jeez, that tire comparison thing was about the most apples to oranges thing I've read in years. A desperate oppressive person created that.


----------



## keto

laristotle said:


> It's kinda unwritten, but everyone knows about it.
> That is, anyone that questions or speaks out against the narrative must be deplatformed, denounced, shamed, lose their careers, get cancelled etc.
> 
> Since you've read extensively up on him and have had a little time now, can you show us a list of the vast majority of the medical world who disagree with him?
> 
> And seriously, watch the vid. It'll answer the questions that you always ask.





Midnight Rider said:


> You first,... we're still waiting for your list from several past posts,... or is this a case of do as I say,... not as I do?


I don't have enough vested interest in trying to change your minds. You do you. Giving that quack any credibility whatsoever says all that needs to be known.

Done.


----------



## Midnight Rider

keto said:


> I don't have enough vested interest in trying to change your minds. You do you. Giving that quack any credibility whatsoever says all that needs to be known.
> 
> Done.


Said the man who can't back up his claims and in the process revealed his weak argument.

Done,... notch,...next.


----------



## laristotle

keto said:


> I don't have enough vested interest in trying to change your minds.


Neither do I. 
Just providing info that some don't want to know about because it may upset what they've been programmed to think?


----------



## GuitarT

laristotle said:


> Neither do I.
> Just providing info that some don't want to know about because it may upset what they've been programmed to think?


 With all due respect I totally agree with your above statement but probably from the other side. 😉🙂


----------



## keto

Midnight Rider said:


> Said the man who can't back up his claims and in the process revealed his weak argument.
> 
> Done,... notch,...next.


It occurred to me since that we actually talked about this good doc and debunked his idiocy some months ago, perhaps as much as a year, in this very thread. Look right here for sources, and, as I suggested, wiki to start elsewhere. But here's how it works, you say the sources I give are just mainstream whatever the ct words are and not credible. Despite linking a convo from youtube via JRogan, who is just another media shill selling soap (I actually like JR as a UFC commentator, but he's not somewhere I'm going for medical advice, y'know?), a pair of mainstream media sources. I'd be interested if the doc had anything to say that was backed up by any of the kazillion current recent or ongoing studies, but that's not necessary for the ct crowd, I get it. Again, I have done my reading, and I didn't need it served up for me. You're not as discriminating, I get it, it's a one way street no matter what I have to say. 

I apologize for saying I was done and not being done but now I think likely I am done.


----------



## laristotle

GuitarT said:


> With all due respect I totally agree with your above statement but probably from the other side. 😉🙂


touché 🤟


----------



## tdotrob

tonewoody said:


> True. Joe is raking it in with his conspiracy hype.


Ya we should all listen and follow the advice of the mega millionaires who afford themselves all the luxuries possible as they have all of our best interests at heart for sure.


----------



## laristotle

tdotrob said:


> Ya we should all listen and follow the advice of the mega millionaires who afford themselves all the luxuries possible as they have all of our best interests at heart for sure.


----------



## Wardo

15 % off .. lol


----------



## tdotrob

laristotle said:


>


Lol I give a fuck what paid promotion guy says


----------



## Wardo

tdotrob said:


> Lol I give a fuck what paid promotion guy says


Reminds me of a Christmas party I was at 25 years ago.
Mid 20s MMA kicker there with his mom.
Kicker gets in an argument with some older guy maybe 50 or so.
They end up in the street and mom is right there officiating.
One or two shots and the old guy is down on his hands and knees.
MMA kicker puts a boot to the right temple.
Old guy dead. Job well done by their standards.
No charges were ever laid.

I figured you'd like this,

Happy New Year.


----------



## GuitarT




----------



## tdotrob

Wardo said:


> Reminds me of a Christmas party I was at 25 years ago.
> Mid 20s MMA kicker there with his mom.
> Kicker gets in an argument with some older guy maybe 50 or so.
> They end up in the street and mom is right there officiating.
> One or two shots and the old guy is down on his hands and knees.
> MMA kicker puts a boot to the right temple.
> Old guy dead. Job well done by their standards.
> No charges were ever laid.
> 
> I figured you'd like this,
> 
> Happy New Year.


Nah senseless violence isn’t my gig. Making fun of racist, sexist and self righteous hypocritical old fucks is fun though.

Too bad you didn’t have the nuts to intervene and save the old fella, I would’ve.


----------



## Wardo

tdotrob said:


> Too bad you didn’t have the nuts to intervene and save the old fella, I would’ve.


1,2,3 and dead. What were you going to do.

Call me a racist all you want but I do not believe you.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Wardo said:


>


Sheep!


----------



## zztomato

keto said:


> I apologize for saying I was done and not being done but now I think likely I am done.


Don't feel bad. It's kind of like arguing with a post. You can offer up all kinds of logic and proven sources but, in the end, you're still left looking at a post.


----------



## tdotrob

tdotrob said:


> Nah senseless violence isn’t my gig. Making fun of racist, sexist and self righteous hypocritical old fucks is fun though.





Wardo said:


> Call me a racist all you want but I do not believe you.


I don’t believe I ever called you a racist. Believe what you want but it’s a fact you stood by and watched a guy kill an old man and did nothing. Ouch, must be tough to live with.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

zztomato said:


> Don't feel bad. It's kind of like arguing with a post. You can offer up all kinds of logic and proven sources but, in the end, you're still left looking at a post.


It’s reminiscent of the flat-earth thread.


----------



## Wardo

tdotrob said:


> must be tough to live with.


Not at all. 1, 2, 3 and dead like I said. Usually it’s guns but this time it was the boots. That’s the way it is. Be thankful that you can work your trade and look after your family without the real thing coming your way.


----------



## Midnight Rider

keto said:


> It occurred to me since that we actually talked about this good doc and debunked his idiocy some months ago, perhaps as much as a year, in this very thread. Look right here for sources, and, as I suggested, wiki to start elsewhere. But here's how it works, you say the sources I give are just mainstream whatever the ct words are and not credible. Despite linking a convo from youtube via JRogan, who is just another media shill selling soap (I actually like JR as a UFC commentator, but he's not somewhere I'm going for medical advice, y'know?), a pair of mainstream media sources. I'd be interested if the doc had anything to say that was backed up by any of the kazillion current recent or ongoing studies, but that's not necessary for the ct crowd, I get it. Again, I have done my reading, and I didn't need it served up for me. You're not as discriminating, I get it, it's a one way street no matter what I have to say.
> 
> I apologize for saying I was done and not being done but now I think likely I am done.


I would think that rightful to your pronouncement of being competently read you could within minutes just from memory impart some of the sources,... y'know, these genius debunking doctors you make reference to.You also seem somewhat befuddled about Joe Rogan,... Joe is the interviewer and his interviewees are the medical professionals proffering the medical counselling and elucidation. Appeared fairly easy to fathom when I viewed the video,... but contented to assist and illuminate those aspects for you.

I find it both farcical and worrisome how some can be so heedless to what is transpiring around them in plain sight all while allowing their minds to be apprehended and manipulated against them.

The jocular commodity with regards to your utterances is not perceiving how concluded you genuinely are in your ineffectual endeavour to blight the standing of such a formidable medical practitioner. This would additionally appertain to the gaggle of obscure physician sources you propound draw breath.


----------



## Midnight Rider

GuitarT said:


>


Now that's good humour right there,... just what the doctor ordered.
Gotta keep laughing somehow during this journey through the tunnel and into the light on the opposite side.


----------



## Guitar101

Midnight Rider said:


> The jocular commodity with regards to your utterances is not perceiving how concluded you genuinely are in your ineffectual endeavour to blight the standing of such a formidable medical practitioner. This would additionally appertain to the gaggle of obscure physician sources you propound draw breath.


Did somebody get a new "Big Word Dictionary" for Christmas? 🎅


----------



## FatStrat2

^ Heh heh, 'Rider's wordy post was funny.

It's pretty rare when I can post that 100% of the members participating in this thread will never, ever change their minds on whatever stance they have. The last time I posted that was in a Fender vs Gibson thread.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Even the decision makers can't agree with what they said a few days ago. Schools in Ontario to resume Wednesday? Maybe in 2 weeks? They'll let us know at the last moment? There seems to be no one capable of making a decision and sticking to it. In a time where the public needs a firm hand on the tiller, we seem to be floundering aimlessly in a tempest. How many people are allowed in what kind of establishment now? Make a decision already! If you err on the side of caution, that would be better than sowing confusion with the seemingly stumbling around in the dark. It's been 2 years, plenty of time to have at least a nominal grip on the situation at hand.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Even the decision makers can't agree with what they said a few days ago. Schools in Ontario to resume Wednesday? Maybe in 2 weeks? They'll let us know at the last moment? There seems to be no one capable of making a decision and sticking to it. In a time where the public needs a firm hand on the tiller, we seem to be floundering aimlessly in a tempest. How many people are allowed in what kind of establishment now? Make a decision already! If you err on the side of caution, that would be better than sowing confusion with the seemingly stumbling around in the dark. It's been 2 years, plenty of time to have at least a nominal grip on the situation at hand.



When they do make a decision they are eviscerated by one side or the other. And contrary to what some believe, they do not make these decisions lightly and are reluctant to impose restrictions but ultimately have to.


----------



## Paul Running

Wardo said:


> 1,2,3 and dead. What were you going to do.
> 
> Call me a racist all you want but I do not believe you.


----------



## zztomato

FatStrat2 said:


> It's pretty rare when I can post that 100% of the members participating in this thread will never, ever change their minds on whatever stance they have. The last time I posted that was in a Fender vs Gibson thread.


Well, you'll likely never find anyone to make the leap from evidence based science to pseudo science and celebrity shills. I have an open mind and am willing to change my opinions based on solid evidence. The crap that some have posted however is just that; crap. 
You should probably give the membership here a bit more credit.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> When they do make a decision they are eviscerated by one side or the other.


You are absolutely correct. So what to do? Well, their obligation is to the people, to represent them and do what is best for the general public. The operative word is "people". Not businesses, not corporations, not lobbyists or representatives, but people. Everything else comes secondary, and is a result of that. Without people, there is nothing else, insofar as society goes. Again, no one ever got in trouble by erring on the side of caution. Unfortunately, you cannot quantify how many people you save by doing so. (save as in "from illness" also).


----------



## Doug Gifford

Ontario schools closed (at-home learning) until at least the seventeenth. So our front room will once more become a grade 2/3 outpost as my wife teaches from home


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Jim DaddyO said:


> There seems to be no one capable of making a decision and sticking to it.


I would much rather have people that can look at a situation as it changes and adjust accordingly. “Making a decision and sticking to it” when things are ramping up exponentially from one day to the next would be idiotic.


----------



## Choo5440

One thing I don't get is why these changes all take an extra day or two to implement. Feels like the extra time just creates a rush for people to do things before they get shut down, resulting in increased chances at exposure.


----------



## Adcandour

My bi-monthly installment on the shittiest thread within GC:

That Ford fuck can't read for shit. You ever look at someone in politics, and think, "how the fuck did they get there?"? It literally looks like this guy is trying to pull a fast one. He's a shifty bitch who looks like Chris Farley ffs.

So....all my ex in-laws got Covid over the holidays. Two of them still went out because they weren't showing symptoms (they both have it now). Fucking double-vaxxed in-breds. The worst part is that they came to MY place of living. No more licking door handles at starbucks.

ALSO...my old employee's wife (fully vaxxed) got some crazy covid strain (unless omicron can be devastating too)...it went from just a cold-like thing to full on devastation. He messaged me all worked up and I told him to give her liquid D3 with K2, since she's already vaxxed, and she was up and at 'em the next day (New Year's). Dr. Rhonda Patrick 1000 UI of D3 per 25lbs of body weight and the vaccine. At that level you need K2 apparently to help with absorption.

So, what I'm trying to say, essentially, is that I'm a fucking doctor.

Update re taking vax: Heavily leaning towards getting it. Just no reason to take it yet due to my lifestyle, but I wanna buy a place somewhere outside Canada and will need it at that point (I think). It absolutely FUCKED UP that the primary reason I'll take the vax is because I wanna leave at some point. Prolly wait until just before Marshall Law though...

I'm still also waiting to see who's gonna die more - the pro-vaxxers or the anti-vaxxers. Is there a tally? Both are equally annoying, so I'm not in favour of either leading, but the info will be useful. Actually, David Icke makes me dislike anti-vaxxers a smidge more...then again, you guys always picking on that one guy within this thread (who's the only polite guy here - outside of @Wardo)...kinda makes me wanna root for the underdog.

Now, you guys may be upset that you wasted 2 minutes of your life reading this, but I wasted 20 minutes of my life writing it, so you win. okay?


----------



## Choo5440

Adcandour said:


> My bi-monthly installment on the shittiest thread within GC:
> 
> That Ford fuck can't read for shit. You ever look at someone in politics, and think, "how the fuck did they get there?"? It literally looks like this guy is trying to pull a fast one. He's a shifty bitch who looks like Chris Farley ffs.
> 
> So....all my ex in-laws got Covid over the holidays. Two of them still went out because they weren't showing symptoms (they both have it now). Fucking double-vaxxed in-breds. The worst part is that they came to MY place of living. No more licking door handles at starbucks.
> 
> ALSO...my old employee's wife (fully vaxxed) got some crazy covid strain (unless omicron can be devastating too)...it went from just a cold-like thing to full on devastation. He messaged me all worked up and I told him to give her liquid D3 with K2, since she's already vaxxed, and she was up and at 'em the next day (New Year's). Dr. Rhonda Patrick 1000 UI of D3 per 25lbs of body weight and the vaccine. At that level you need K2 apparently to help with absorption.
> 
> So, what I'm trying to say, essentially, is that I'm a fucking doctor.
> 
> Update re taking vax: Heavily leaning towards getting it. Just no reason to take it yet due to my lifestyle, but I wanna buy a place somewhere outside Canada and will need it at that point (I think). It absolutely FUCKED UP that the primary reason I'll take the vax is because I wanna leave at some point. Prolly wait until just before Marshall Law though...
> 
> I'm still also waiting to see who's gonna die more - the pro-vaxxers or the anti-vaxxers. Is there a tally? Both are equally annoying, so I'm not in favour of either leading, but the info will be useful. Actually, David Icke makes me dislike anti-vaxxers a smidge more...then again, you guys always picking on that one guy within this thread (who's the only polite guy here - outside of @Wardo)...kinda makes me wanna root for the underdog.
> 
> Now, you guys may be upset that you wasted 2 minutes of your life reading this, but I wasted 20 minutes of my life writing it, so you win. okay?


Are you talking pure numbers, or percentage? This is a chart that was made about US rates by vaccination status.
even the 'worst' vaccine (Johnson and Johnson 1 shot) reduced deaths by more than 8x, and we don't use it in Canada.


__
https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/raxc31


----------



## mhammer

Choo5440 said:


> One thing I don't get is why these changes all take an extra day or two to implement. Feels like the extra time just creates a rush for people to do things before they get shut down, resulting in increased chances at exposure.


Because all the businesses and enterprises affected have to implement.

The specific operational requirements to make the changes are never articulated sufficiently to the public. We think it happens by magic, somehow. And as I am fond of repeating: when you make something LOOK easy, people mistakenly think it IS easy. Walk into any bakery at 9:00AM and there's all sorts of fresh things to eat as well as wonderful smells. NONE of that began at 8:45, before they turned the "Closed" sign around to "Open". It started LONG before, while you were sound asleep in bed, or maybe even buying a round at the last call.

SOME things in life can turn on a dime, but not much.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> You are absolutely correct. So what to do? Well, their obligation is to the people, to represent them and do what is best for the general public. The operative word is "people". Not businesses, not corporations, not lobbyists or representatives, but people. Everything else comes secondary, and is a result of that. Without people, there is nothing else, insofar as society goes. Again, no one ever got in trouble by erring on the side of caution. Unfortunately, you cannot quantify how many people you save by doing so. (save as in "from illness" also).


And when they do people complain. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.


----------



## colchar

Doug Gifford said:


> Ontario schools closed (at-home learning) until at least the seventeenth. So our front room will once more become a grade 2/3 outpost as my wife teaches from home


How long until Angry Andrea starts screaming that ventilation in schools should have been fixed while the kids were off, like the entire HVAC system at every school could have been upgraded over the holidays.


----------



## mhammer

2manyGuitars said:


> I would much rather have people that can look at a situation as it changes and adjust accordingly. “Making a decision and sticking to it” when things are ramping up exponentially from one day to the next would be idiotic.


I keep repeating that public policy in response to current events is usually sloppy policy, largely because it focuses a little too much on the specific contexts and challenges that prompted it, and not enough on the broader picture. That said, there are some things that capture the public attention but warrant deeper consideration to provide better policy that looks at the big picture and anticipates how things could change in future, and there are some things that demand an instant response, because the house is burning down.

Can those knee-jerk emergency responses always be perfect? Nah. No matter who is at the helm, unless it's Nero, you're gonna get what you're gonna get. And if the circumstances keep changing, so will the "solutions". As I think Peter Kent used to say, as his signoff, on Global News: "That's not news, but that too is reality".

All of that aside, I think the bunch of us are starting to reinvent the political forum again. Maybe we oughta knock it off and get back to helping each other stay healthy and disease-free.


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> We think it happens by magic, somehow.


No we fucking don't. We are well aware that it can take time to implement new processes.




> Walk into any bakery at 9:00AM and there's all sorts of fresh things to eat as well as wonderful smells. NONE of that began at 8:45, before they turned the "Closed" sign around to "Open". It started LONG before, while you were sound asleep in bed, or maybe even buying a round at the last call.



Yeah no shit Sherlock. Do you actually think there are people who believe that bread in bakeries just magically appears fully ready as the doors open each morning?

Do you have to bloviate with _every_ post?


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> We are well aware that it can take time to implement new processes.


You are, and so am I, but there are unfortunately many who aren't, and will complain.


----------



## Milkman

We have had to be very adaptive and able to pivot. Our lives have changed more fundamentally as a result of this pandemic than from anything else in my lifetime (born at the end of 1960 for your reference).

911 is the only thing I can think of that comes even close. Obviously there were political ramifications from that which I'm not going to discuss, but it fundamentally changed security both for travel and at corporations. But in terms of comprehensive impact to our lives, only WW2 comes to mind and that was over almost 15 years before I was born.

This trumps all of that.

But there's a difference between being adaptive and jumping at every suggestion we may receive from questionable sources.

I really am less and less inclined to argue with people over it. I can only protect myself and those in my family who will accept my advice. I won't shove it down anyone's throat. Fortunately with my wife, that 's not necessary. We agree.


----------



## tomee2

The UK just said kids now need to wear masks in schools. Not even going near closing schools yet.


----------



## tomee2

colchar said:


> And when they do people complain. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.


In any other country the actions of the current ON premiere would be seen as very left of center. But here, no matter what they do, it's still seen as not enough.


----------



## Milkman

It's important to remember that schools are not intended to be subsidized day care. I'm sorry if that offends anyone. My kids are grown now but when they were in school, my wife and I agreed that she would stop working outside of home until they all finished school.

We sacrificed much in terms of affluence to support that, and I must continue working longer than I would prefer before (if ever) I retire.

I understand that not everyone can do this, but are the complaints about home schooling really about education or more to do with houshold finances?


----------



## tomee2

Milkman said:


> It's important to remember that schools are not intended to be subsidized day care. I'm sorry if that offends anyone. My kids are grown now but when they were in school, my wife and I agreed that she would stop working outside of home until they all finished school.
> 
> We sacrificed much in terms of affluence to support that, and I must continue working longer than I would prefer before (if ever) I retire.
> 
> I understand that not everyone can do this, but are the complaints about home schooling really about education or more to do with houshold finances?


Who said it's daycare? They need an education, and to interact with their friends. Mine are trying to get ready for university and their morale is awful. Pretty sure one is suffering from depression at this point. It's been almost 2 years of remote at home schooling except for a few months last term. Trying to get a remote session with a guidance councilor took months! They would not meet in person, only online. I got a haircut, and my teeth cleaned just fine but a teacher refused to see students in person to plan their futures. 
Their futures are at stake and you think it's because we want daycare?


----------



## Choo5440

I'm absolutely biased, but kids need their families more in the long term, than school in the short.
I've had multiple referrals by CAS to request management/supervision of kids due to parents passing away/becoming palliative from covid.

Do I think in person schooling is important? Definitely - for all of the reasons stated.
I also think having parents around is more important.


----------



## Milkman

tomee2 said:


> Who said it's daycare? They need an education, and to interact with their friends. Mine are trying to get ready for university and their morale is awful. Pretty sure one is suffering from depression at this point. It's been almost 2 years of remote at home schooling except for a few months last term. Trying to get a remote session with a guidance councilor took months! They would not meet in person, only online. I got a haircut, and my teeth cleaned just fine but a teacher refused to see students in person to plan their futures.
> Their futures are at stake and you think it's because we want daycare?


Your situation is yours, but many comments I have heard (CBC radio at lunch time today for example) were clearly lamenting the inconvenience and expenses that come along with school closures.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

2manyGuitars said:


> I would much rather have people that can look at a situation as it changes and adjust accordingly. “Making a decision and sticking to it” when things are ramping up exponentially from one day to the next would be idiotic.


Not much new information between the announcement schools would go back Wednesday and today's panic. This is a total lack of heeding the evidence presented in other countries. Decisions need to be proactive, not this reactive b.s. that we are getting. You can't go to a gym, theatre or bar, but you sure as fuck pack into Walmart and Costco. This ramping up with Omicron was evident to even an idiot like me by just glancing at readily available information. Why is/was it not noticed by those who are supposed to be hiring and promoting and following the best minds in the field we have, globally? Willful ignorance, that's why.


----------



## tomee2

Milkman said:


> Your situation is yours, but many comments I have heard (CBC radio at lunch time today for example) were clearly lamenting the inconvenience and expenses that come along with school closures.


Sorry if I got snappy. I'm just bothered that our kids are going back to remote learning which did not work for one of them.


----------



## Choo5440

Can't speak for milkman, but I can under stand being snappy. It's a frustrating situation, and seeing your own kids doing poorly is tough.

This is a no win situation for all of us


----------



## dgreen

I have been reading this thread off and on when I wake up over the past 20 months or so. It is a time consuming thread with the same material passing thru but in a different format each time, still entertaining and some thoughtful insights on both sides.

Just a tiny screen shot of the people _*I personally know*_ and interact with in my geographical area, not including any of my family members (approx 70 people). All fully vaccinated with the exception of some younger age group with just one shot due to the fact they are still waiting for their second shot.
Age group between 12 years old and mid 80's, all vaccinated:
2 fully vaccinated people did get covid, very mild symptoms, stayed home and self isolated.

The 3 people I personally know that are not vaccinated ( all non science related reasons), all three under 45 years old, all in excellent health;
one has had covid twice ( last feb, then this sept, with one trip to emergency)
the other two, both admitted to emergency, one for an overnight observation, the other for multiple days, now finally released and back home with still severe symptoms ( he is the only one now opting for the vaccine)

I trust the science, just like students trust me when I point out where the high E string is at their first guitar lesson


----------



## mhammer

tomee2 said:


> Sorry if I got snappy. I'm just bothered that our kids are going back to remote learning which did not work for one of them.


Indeed, it was a poor second choice. But consider that inadequate preparations (and the time required to provide them) can easily end up in a rotating series of supply teachers (assuming there are any available), which is not really any better. My sense is that the objective is to be able to provide as contiguous/continuous a classroom experience as possible. That means getting all relevant adults vaxed/boosted (teachers and other school staff), and all ventilation suitably assessed and upgraded, so that nobody finds themselves suddenly having to have a new teacher (because the regular one is home sick) or surprise their parents with a return to on-line classes.

It's also the case that one could reasonably expect a big increase in cases 7-10 days after the holiday break. So I think the objective is to wait until the post-holiday smoke clears, before taking on the risk of a return to schools. It's far from ideal, but it is also better than the worst-case scenario.


----------



## Milkman

tomee2 said:


> Sorry if I got snappy. I'm just bothered that our kids are going back to remote learning which did not work for one of them.


No, I knew when I made that comment that it might offend and I’m sorry about that.


----------



## jb welder

Got my chip update today. Full 5G connectivity with Chavros now.


----------



## Choo5440

jb welder said:


> Got my chip update today. Full 5G connectivity with Chavros now.


Nah, takes two weeks for the uplink to connect 😜


----------



## Adcandour

This is where you guys say that Joe Rogan isn't a clinical psychologist, so he doesn't know what he's talking about, keke. 

What's up with Quebec?


----------



## colchar

tomee2 said:


> Who said it's daycare? They need an education, and to interact with their friends. Mine are trying to get ready for university and their morale is awful. Pretty sure one is suffering from depression at this point. It's been almost 2 years of remote at home schooling except for a few months last term. Trying to get a remote session with a guidance councilor took months! They would not meet in person, only online. I got a haircut, and my teeth cleaned just fine but a teacher refused to see students in person to plan their futures.
> Their futures are at stake and you think it's because we want daycare?


Some people do see schools as daycare. 

And the way things are, high school students might as well get used to online learning if they plan to go to college or university because the schools are transitioning towards more of it.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Not much new information between the announcement schools would go back Wednesday and today's panic. This is a total lack of heeding the evidence presented in other countries. Decisions need to be proactive, not this reactive b.s. that we are getting. You can't go to a gym, theatre or bar, but you sure as fuck pack into Walmart and Costco. This ramping up with Omicron was evident to even an idiot like me by just glancing at readily available information. Why is/was it not noticed by those who are supposed to be hiring and promoting and following the best minds in the field we have, globally? Willful ignorance, that's why.


Not willful ignorance, but trying not to piss people off. Half the people get pissed about lockdowns, the other half get pissed that they didn't bring those measures in quicker. As I've said, they're danmed if they do and damned if they don't and everyone is all of a sudden a fucking expert who knows exactly how we should weather this storm. 

And no, you cannot pack into Walmart or Costco because there are capacity restrictions on those places.


----------



## player99

If I get Covid I'll post on dating sites that I have and I'm looking for an asymptomatic hot babe with covid to spend a few weeks in bed together.


----------



## FatStrat2

I don't mind if I get O, it will be over and done with in a few days. It can't be as bad as the original variant I got in Jan 2020, that wasn't fun.

Speaking of which, I've been reading on some medical websites of estimates that Omicron is 140 times as transmissible as the original variant and 70 times as transmissible as Delta. Probably means most urban dwellers will get it despite lock-downs, masks and all the other stuff.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> Half the people get pissed about lockdowns, the other half get pissed that they didn't bring those measures in quicker.



I get what you're saying. Try to please everyone, end up pleasing no one. In the mean time, hospital admissions are going up, ICUs are getting more crowded, numbers are skyrocketing, deaths are still happening. May as well just piss everyone off and get it over with. Once again the goal is not preventing the virus, just slow it to a pace that the medical community can keep up with. We haven't progressed at all in the last 2 years it seems sometimes.


----------



## zztomato

Adcandour said:


> This is where you guys say that Joe Rogan isn't a clinical psychologist, so he doesn't know what he's talking about, keke.
> 
> What's up with Quebec?


Comparing what the Nazi regime did in the 1930's in order to marginalize and ultimately exterminate people to what governments are doing today to help save lives is completely obscene. I can't believe you would go there seriously. 
I don't agree with a lot of what governments are doing currently but ffs, they are not trying to exterminate people.


----------



## mhammer

Adcandour said:


> This is where you guys say that Joe Rogan isn't a clinical psychologist, so he doesn't know what he's talking about, keke.
> 
> What's up with Quebec?


I'm not so sure that Jordan Peterson is a clinical psychologist anymore. One of the first maxims of clinical practice is that one listens more and talks less.


----------



## mhammer

FatStrat2 said:


> I don't mind if I get O, it will be over and done with in a few days. It can't be as bad as the original variant I got in Jan 2020, that wasn't fun.
> 
> Speaking of which, I've been reading on some medical websites of estimates that Omicron is 140 times as transmissible as the original variant and 70 times as transmissible as Delta. Probably means most urban dwellers will get it despite lock-downs, masks and all the other stuff.


Several health professionals are being interviewed on CBC radio at the moment. When asked about the proposition that everyone will "get it eventually", the distinction was made between getting infected with Omicron months or years from now, in much the same way one might get the flu or a cold, and the lion's share of the populace getting infected now, such that there aren't enough nurses, aren't enough police, paramedics, and firefighters, aren't enough teachers (or supply teachers), aren't enough city workers to plow the snow off city streets, aren't enough people to work all the checkouts at the grocery store, or enough people to pick up the garbage.

Yes, I suppose we'll nearly all contract it at some point in the future. But it's a bit like saying "Everybody dies eventually. I might as well get it over with now.". The objective is to spread out life's and society's hurdles over a big-enough period of time, that life can be rewarding and society can function.


----------



## ZeroGravity

colchar said:


> How long until Angry Andrea starts screaming that ventilation in schools should have been fixed while the kids were off, like the entire HVAC system at every school could have been upgraded over the holidays.


The guys I know in commercial HVAC laughingly posted that in order to do that on any scale, the equipment would have had to have been ordered almost 2 years ago.


----------



## colchar

ZeroGravity said:


> The guys I know in commercial HVAC laughingly posted that in order to do that on any scale, the equipment would have had to have been ordered almost 2 years ago.



But that won't stop her screeching that it should have been done over the holidays.


----------



## colchar

zztomato said:


> Comparing what the Nazi regime did in the 1930's in order to marginalize and ultimately exterminate people to what governments are doing today to help save lives is completely obscene. I can't believe you would go there seriously.
> I don't agree with a lot of what governments are doing currently but ffs, they are not trying to exterminate people.



Some of these anti vaxxers actually believe that they are. They think the vaccines are going to trigger a mass extermination sometime in the next 2-3 years.


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> But that won't stop her screeching that it should have been done over the holidays.


What was the TTC's response?

"Open the windows!"

What interesting times we find ourselves in


----------



## zztomato

colchar said:


> Some of these anti vaxxers actually believe that they are. They think the vaccines are going to trigger a mass extermination sometime in the next 2-3 years.


Yep. Well, it keeps them busy anyway.


----------



## FatStrat2

mhammer said:


> ... But it's a bit like saying "Everybody dies eventually. I might as well get it over with now."...


While I agree with some of your common-sense statement, you blew it with this. It's just another unnecessarily extreme, dramatic and 'apples to oranges' comparison.


----------



## laristotle

Sabrina Maddeaux: Lockdowns are killing young Canadians


Our nation’s younger generations are self-harming and dying in unprecedented numbers that appear to directly correlate with closures




nationalpost.com


----------



## 2manyGuitars

A whole LOT of graphs, charts, numbers related to Ontario at this site...









Ontario Dashboard - Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table


NOTICE: This website is no longer updated.If you have questions about previously published Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table resources, please email [email protected] Current Status in Ontario Contents Current Status in Ontario Current COVID-19 Risk in Ontario by Vaccination Status...




covid19-sciencetable.ca





...but these ones stand out.
Other than 5 to 11 year olds, vaccination rates are averaging around the 90% range.










As the “vaccine hesitant” have been screaming to anyone who will still listen recently, yes, vaccinated people are still getting it but the unvaccinated are overwhelmingly the ones going to the hospital, ending up in the ICU, and dying.


----------



## Wardo

Called them today and got an appointment to get shot this afternoon. It’s at some Mall in the North end. Easier than driving 1.5 hours to the previous location that was scheduled for Jan 19.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

laristotle said:


> Sabrina Maddeaux: Lockdowns are killing young Canadians
> 
> 
> Our nation’s younger generations are self-harming and dying in unprecedented numbers that appear to directly correlate with closures
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


It kinda makes you wonder what they did a few centuries ago when, for many, it was rare to see another human outside your immediate family.


----------



## tomee2

2manyGuitars said:


> A whole LOT of graphs, charts, numbers related to Ontario at this site...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario Dashboard - Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table
> 
> 
> NOTICE: This website is no longer updated.If you have questions about previously published Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table resources, please email [email protected] Current Status in Ontario Contents Current Status in Ontario Current COVID-19 Risk in Ontario by Vaccination Status...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid19-sciencetable.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...but these ones stand out.
> Other than 5 to 11 year olds, vaccination rates are averaging around the 90% range.
> 
> View attachment 395829
> 
> 
> As the “vaccine hesitant” have been screaming to anyone who will still listen recently, yes, vaccinated people are still getting it but the unvaccinated are overwhelmingly the ones going to the hospital, ending up in the ICU, and dying.
> 
> View attachment 395833


Thanks for that effort. I've been looking at these numbers too, and it's consistent with what's reported in the UK and the US.
The hospital admissions and ICU populations are the main numbers to look at, and they tell the big story... the vaccines are keeping people from getting seriously ill.


----------



## allthumbs56

2manyGuitars said:


> A whole LOT of graphs, charts, numbers related to Ontario at this site...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario Dashboard - Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table
> 
> 
> NOTICE: This website is no longer updated.If you have questions about previously published Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table resources, please email [email protected] Current Status in Ontario Contents Current Status in Ontario Current COVID-19 Risk in Ontario by Vaccination Status...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> covid19-sciencetable.ca
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...but these ones stand out.
> Other than 5 to 11 year olds, vaccination rates are averaging around the 90% range.
> 
> View attachment 395829
> 
> 
> As the “vaccine hesitant” have been screaming to anyone who will still listen recently, yes, vaccinated people are still getting it but the unvaccinated are overwhelmingly the ones going to the hospital, ending up in the ICU, and dying.
> 
> View attachment 395833


These last three tell a pretty accurate story:


----------



## 2manyGuitars

tomee2 said:


> Thanks for that effort. I've been looking at these numbers too, and it's consistent with what's reported in the UK and the US.
> The hospital admissions and ICU populations are the main numbers to look at, and they tell the big story... the vaccines are keeping people from getting seriously ill.


Yup. All the other back-and-forth noise aside, it essentially boils down to...


Will the vaccine keep me from getting COVID? With omicron, maybe but no guarantee.
Will the vaccine keep me from getting sick? Yes, in a lot cases, you may not even know you were infected.
Will the vaccine keep me out of the hospital? Yes, very, very likely you won’t need medical resources.
Will the vaccine keep me out of the ICU? Yes, almost guaranteed.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

allthumbs56 said:


> These last three tell a pretty accurate story:
> 
> View attachment 395852


Yeah, those three are the stats I highlighted in the list. I saw that it laid it out in a more visual way but thought I’d put the raw numbers in there. Thanks for posting the other ones.


----------



## allthumbs56

2manyGuitars said:


> Yeah, those three are the stats I highlighted in the list. I saw that it laid it out in a more visual way but thought I’d put the raw numbers in there. Thanks for posting the other ones.


I guess some good news is that people (above 12 that is) are continuing to buy in and get their first jabs. I mean, if you believe these numbers then how could you not? If you don't believe the numbers? Then what? That's a bigger problem, I guess. There's probably a long list of things you don't believe ............


----------



## Jim DaddyO

These folks always satisfy my urge for balanced reporting. Yes, they have biases, mostly toward data. I like their stand of not "deplatforming" or "censoring" views and individuals (really, it only brings attention to those being censored and strengthens their point, even though it may be erronious in some instances). Have the debate, let the numbers speak for themselves, point out what is missing or what has been added to the message of the speaker.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

And also, their common refrain is “Lockdowns bad! We need to learn to live with this and get back to normal! Freedums! Rights! Hurr Durr...”

I agree. COVID is likely going to stick around in some form for the foreseeable future and we will need to learn to live with it in order to get back to (I hate using this term) the new normal. _*BUT*_ that’s going to require changes.

I realize that in the coming months, as I’m out shopping, working, going about daily life, I’m likely going to come into contact with COVID and likely catch it. By being vaccinated, I’m pretty confident that I’ll catch it and move on with my life. The numbers are bearing out that the unvaccinated are clearly the thing keeping us from “getting back to normal”. LOTS of people are getting it but the unvaccinated are overwhelming the medical system. It’s that 10% of the population that are in danger of fucking everything up for everybody.

You want to get back to normal? Get a shot so we can all get back out there.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

...and before I hear about “Well I don’t have my shot and _I’M_ fine. My buddy, my mother’s sister’s cousin’s neighbour, the guy I heard about on YouTube, etc. are all unvaccinated and they’re fine”. That doesn’t mean shit. I have myself, family, friends, coworkers who are vaccinated and I can tell anecdotal stories about them too. It also doesn’t mean shit.

What does mean something is the numbers. Lots of vaccinated people _are_ testing positive and fuck-all is happening to them. Lots of unvaccinated people are testing positive too and they’re filling hospitals.


----------



## mhammer

FatStrat2 said:


> While I agree with some of your common-sense statement, you blew it with this. It's just another unnecessarily extreme, dramatic and 'apples to oranges' comparison.


But that's the entire point of a _reductio ad absurdum_ argument. In this instance, the view that if everyone is going to contract it eventually one might as well get it now, makes no sense whatsoever. It might make a *bit* of sense in that contracting it is not any sort of irrevocable death sentence, so it shouldn't send one into a panic. But to the contrary, neither is it something one should NOT take positive steps to avoid catching or spreading. 

One gets the sense that some are flogging the "we're all going to get it anyways" argument as yet one more rationale for not having to undertake the "inconvenience" of public health measures. And whether it is climate change, contagion reduction, or simply getting off the couch to pick up their dirty socks, some folks will opt for the dumbest of arguments to avoid having to do something they just don't feel like doing.

If my earlier comment was a bit of a trigger, for whatever reason, my apologies.


----------



## mhammer

2manyGuitars said:


> And also, their common refrain is “Lockdowns bad! We need to learn to live with this and get back to normal! Freedums! Rights! Hurr Durr...”
> 
> I agree. COVID is likely going to stick around in some form for the foreseeable future and we will need to learn to live with it in order to get back to (I hate using this term) the new normal. _*BUT*_ that’s going to require changes.
> 
> I realize that in the coming months, as I’m out shopping, working, going about daily life, I’m likely going to come into contact with COVID and likely catch it. By being vaccinated, I’m pretty confident that I’ll catch it and move on with my life. The numbers are bearing out that the unvaccinated are clearly the thing keeping us from “getting back to normal”. LOTS of people are getting it but the unvaccinated are overwhelming the medical system. It’s that 10% of the population that are in danger of fucking everything up for everybody.
> 
> You want to get back to normal? Get a shot so we can all get back out there.


Some folks here may be familiar with the notion of an AND gate, whether in Boolean logic or electronic terms. The idea is that a positive outcome/output can only occur if all the inputs to the gate are positive. This is distinguished from a NAND gate, in which the output/outcome can only be positive if some of the inputs are negative/absent. If all the inputs are positive, it is as if none of them are.

The maintenance and longevity of this virus seems to be due to a confusing of ANDs and NANDs. Its elimination requires the joint inputs of everyone and every nation, but some adopt the view that a positive outcome/output will occur if one or more of the inputs (which includes themselves) is absent. It won't and can't.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

China just locked down the city of Yuzhou, population 4.5 million, for 3 covid cases detected. Sheesh! When they mean lock down, they really mean it too.

Also, the northern Chinese city of Xi'an ordered all 13 million residents to stay home in a strict lockdown Wednesday.

Drastic, but probably effective.


----------



## laristotle

Jim DaddyO said:


> Also, the northern Chinese city of Xi'an ordered all 13 million residents to stay home in a strict lockdown Wednesday.
> 
> Drastic, but probably effective.











Xi'an: Cries for help and food in quarantined Chinese city


Officials say there are adequate supplies, but some in Xi'an say they do not have enough to eat.



www.bbc.com




_But compared to other lockdowns globally, locals cannot go out even for essential reasons like buying food.

The government is delivering supplies but many on social media say they are yet to receive them and are struggling.

In past days, people have taken to the Weibo social media platform to call for help with getting food and other essentials. Many said they hadn't received their government supplies yet.

Another person said: "The allocation is so uneven. The district I'm based in hasn't got anything. We are told to group up and order together. The price is very high as well." _


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> Xi'an: Cries for help and food in quarantined Chinese city
> 
> 
> Officials say there are adequate supplies, but some in Xi'an say they do not have enough to eat.
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _But compared to other lockdowns globally, locals cannot go out even for essential reasons like buying food.
> 
> The government is delivering supplies but many on social media say they are yet to receive them and are struggling.
> 
> In past days, people have taken to the Weibo social media platform to call for help with getting food and other essentials. Many said they hadn't received their government supplies yet.
> 
> Another person said: "The allocation is so uneven. The district I'm based in hasn't got anything. We are told to group up and order together. The price is very high as well." _


_"There's a level of admiration I actually have for China. Their basic dictatorship is actually allowing them to turn their economy around on a dime."_​
And their Covid response too, it seems.


----------



## laristotle

Very easy when the population's subjugated, eh?!


----------



## Adcandour

zztomato said:


> Comparing what the Nazi regime did in the 1930's in order to marginalize and ultimately exterminate people to what governments are doing today to help save lives is completely obscene. I can't believe you would go there seriously.
> I don't agree with a lot of what governments are doing currently but ffs, they are not trying to exterminate people.


I am crossing my fingers that this is what the government is up to. 



mhammer said:


> I'm not so sure that Jordan Peterson is a clinical psychologist anymore. One of the first maxims of clinical practice is that one listens more and talks less.


That would make for a really weird interview.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

allthumbs56 said:


> allowing them to turn their economy around on a dime."


Do you mean turned it around into the toilet? In a single word...Evergrande. The value of China's home sales has plunged by over 16% in the 5th straight month of decline. Everything I see is that the Chinese economy is in dire circumstances.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Do you mean turned it around into the toilet? In a single word...Evergrande. The value of China's home sales has plunged by over 16% in the 5th straight month of decline. Everything I see is that the Chinese economy is in dire circumstances.


Good!


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> Do you mean turned it around into the toilet? In a single word...Evergrande. The value of China's home sales has plunged by over 16% in the 5th straight month of decline. Everything I see is that the Chinese economy is in dire circumstances.


Not my quote. Did not name source as I don't want to get political


----------



## 1SweetRide

Jim DaddyO said:


> China just locked down the city of Yuzhou, population 4.5 million, for 3 covid cases detected. Sheesh! When they mean lock down, they really mean it too.
> 
> Also, the northern Chinese city of Xi'an ordered all 13 million residents to stay home in a strict lockdown Wednesday.
> 
> Drastic, but probably effective.


Let’s send the anti-maskers and anti-vaxers over there for a month.


----------



## mhammer

1SweetRide said:


> Let’s send the anti-maskers and anti-vaxers over there for a month.


I'm not so sure off-shoring such persons to a place where greater compliance with public health measures will *reduce* their risk of infection is any sort of punishment or "just desserts" (ignoring for the moment WHY there is greater compliance). Rather, I think a month's vacation in South Dakota might be more fitting.


----------



## Guitar101

1SweetRide said:


> Let’s send the anti-maskers and anti-vaxers over there _(China)_ for a month.


Not sure if that would work. Once they are forced to get their heads out of their ass by the Chinese government and get vaccinated. They would probably realize the vaccines are no big deal and would probably stay there so they wouldn't have to deal with the anti-vaxers back here in Canada. 😷


----------



## Choo5440

Friends of mine work at St Michael's Hospital Emergency - one of 2 major trauma centres in Toronto. They just told me that a couple of nights ago, only 2 (TWO) nurses were available for the entire emergency department, resulting in nurses being pulled from ICU. ICU already being short (nurses need specific training to work ICU/ED), meant that unqualified nurses were pulled in to manage ICU cases. 

flattening the curve is real. and we're about to lose that battle in horrific fashion.
believe what you want about the vaccines, covid itself, and treatments. But the reality of what's happening to hospitals is absolutely insane.

Stay safe out there


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Choo5440 said:


> flattening the curve is real. and we're about to lose that battle in horrific fashion.
> believe what you want about the vaccines, covid itself, and treatments. But the reality of what's happening to hospitals is absolutely insane.


Quoted for truth.

I’m currently waiting on x-rays to diagnose something that will likely require surgery. I’m almost 100% certain I will need it and they generally like to get it done within 2 to 4 weeks. I’m also almost certain that they will likely bump it due to hospitals being overrun and short staffed. FFS people...


----------



## Jim DaddyO

allthumbs56 said:


> Not my quote. Did not name source as I don't want to get political


Smart move.

I thought it came from another source due to the italics.


----------



## tomee2

Well, the UK is not doing more than currently doing, which is not much. So an interesting experiment of sorts, to see what happens there, here, and the US in the next 4 weeks with varying levels of mask requirements, business limits, social activity limits etc.


----------



## Mikev7305

Remember when the health care system fired all those health care professionals for being unvaxxed? Yet they will allow a covid positive vaxxed person go to work when they feel like shit. Man they could certainly use those qualified nurses that are sitting at home now


----------



## Mikev7305

Deleted probably too political


----------



## FatStrat2

Mikev7305 said:


> Remember when the health care system fired all those health care professionals for being unvaxxed?...


Yeah, those unwaxed health care professionals need to keep up with their grooming.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Mikev7305 said:


> Remember when the health care system fired all those health care professionals for being unvaxxed? Yet they will allow a covid positive vaxxed person go to work when they feel like shit. Man they could certainly use those qualified nurses that are sitting at home now


Because there’s a HUGE difference sending a vaxxed nurse into a COVID ward vs. an unvaccinated one. And as far as allowing a COVID positive person so go to work, there’s still an isolation period to get them past the point where they’re likely to spread it. They also have other measures in place to reduce the risk.


----------



## Milkman

FatStrat2 said:


> Yeah, those unwaxed health care professionals need to keep up with their grooming.



I think they need to pursue alternate professions.


----------



## allthumbs56

Mikev7305 said:


> Remember when the health care system fired all those health care professionals for being unvaxxed? Yet they will allow a covid positive vaxxed person go to work when they feel like shit. Man they could certainly use those qualified nurses that are sitting at home now


You do know that there weren't that many, right? If they'd somehow stayed at work they would have been the first to catch Omicron and be sent home to isolate - so their contribution would have been net-zero anyway.


----------



## Jim Wellington

Hospitalizations | COVID-19 (coronavirus) in Ontario 

Covid infected people make up very little of the ICU capacity according to the Provincial Government. The media may feel differently however...they have their own motivations apparently.

The numbers are in the link. I wish the hysteria would stop.


----------



## Choo5440

I remember previously (last year, I think) the numbers would only count those with 'active infections' so even if a person were still in hospital/icu for covid complications, they no longer counted as covid positive for hospitalization numbers after their isolation period had ended


----------



## 2manyGuitars

allthumbs56 said:


> You do know that there weren't that many, right? If they'd somehow stayed at work they would have been the first to catch Omicron and be sent home to isolate - so their contribution would have been net-zero anyway.


Here’s an article about one typical hospital from around the time of the deadline. You can read it if you want all the info but I’ll give you the highlights;

57 employees were let go
98.5% of employees (or 4,155) were vaccinated
for nurses, the rate was even higher at 99%
of the 57, 32 were clinical staff while 25 were support staff









Ontario hospital fires 57 unvaccinated employees; says 98.5 per cent obeyed mandate


A southwestern Ontario hospital has fired 57 employees who failed to get vaccinated against COVID-19 by a Thursday deadline -- a number it said is dwarfed by the thousands who did get their shots.




www.cp24.com





If the employer can demonstrate a legitimate need for a certain measure, I think firing those who won’t follow the rules is perfectly fine. Nurses are already required to have certain vaccinations as a condition of employment already. Getting one more to mitigate very real risks in the midst of pandemic, _especially_ for the people working in the middle of it, seems like a no-brainer.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim Wellington said:


> Hospitalizations | COVID-19 (coronavirus) in Ontario
> 
> Covid infected people make up very little of the ICU capacity according to the Provincial Government. The media may feel differently however...they have their own motivations apparently.
> 
> The numbers are in the link. I wish the hysteria would stop.


Yesterday was a long time ago ......









Ontario reports 14 new COVID-19 deaths; hospitalizations up 62 per cent in one day


Ontario reported 14 new COVID-19 deaths on Wednesday, as the number of people in hospital with COVID-19 jumped by 62 per cent in a single day.




www.cp24.com


----------



## 2manyGuitars

allthumbs56 said:


> Yesterday was a long time ago ......
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario reports 14 new COVID-19 deaths; hospitalizations up 62 per cent in one day
> 
> 
> Ontario reported 14 new COVID-19 deaths on Wednesday, as the number of people in hospital with COVID-19 jumped by 62 per cent in a single day.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cp24.com


Yeah, and it’s “only” 260 something out of 1800-plus ICU beds. If getting a shot and wearing a mask can free up even a fraction of that 260, isn’t that a good thing?

And people think of it as just one bed but fail to realize each ICU patient ties up a team of doctors, nurses, respiratory therapists, equipment, ventilators, lab time, etc., etc. Someone taking up even one of of those beds because “you can’t tell me what to do” is simply a selfish prick.


----------



## zztomato

Jim Wellington said:


> Hospitalizations | COVID-19 (coronavirus) in Ontario
> 
> Covid infected people make up very little of the ICU capacity according to the Provincial Government. The media may feel differently however...they have their own motivations apparently.
> 
> The numbers are in the link. I wish the hysteria would stop.


According to that around half (48%) in the ICU are on a ventilator due to Covid. There are a lot of reasons that this is a major concern that are obvious and don't need repeating. I just hope you won't need to go to hospital for any reason at all these days.


----------



## ZeroGravity

2manyGuitars said:


> Yeah, and it’s “only” 260 something out of 1800-plus ICU beds. If getting a shot and wearing a mask can free up even a fraction of that 260, isn’t that a good thing?
> 
> And people think of it as just one bed but fail to realize each ICU patient ties up a team of doctors, nurses, respiratory therapists, equipment, ventilators, lab time, etc., etc. Someone taking up even one of of those beds because “you can’t tell me what to do” is simply a selfish prick.


I am not sure what hospital or jurisdiction it was, but they had to reallocate ICU nurses to cover ER, leaving ICU exposed or in turn non-trained nurses had to then be used in ICU (don't ask me for an explanation of how that works, I'm just the messenger). Staff shortages, at the moment, are outweighing the pressures from Omicron but also Delta has not gone away either.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

2manyGuitars said:


> Here’s an article about one typical hospital from around the time of the deadline. You can read it if you want all the info but I’ll give you the highlights;
> 
> 57 employees were let go
> 98.5% of employees (or 4,155) were vaccinated
> for nurses, the rate was even higher at 99%
> of the 57, 32 were clinical staff while 25 were support staff
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ontario hospital fires 57 unvaccinated employees; says 98.5 per cent obeyed mandate
> 
> 
> A southwestern Ontario hospital has fired 57 employees who failed to get vaccinated against COVID-19 by a Thursday deadline -- a number it said is dwarfed by the thousands who did get their shots.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cp24.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the employer can demonstrate a legitimate need for a certain measure, I think firing those who won’t follow the rules is perfectly fine. Nurses are already required to have certain vaccinations as a condition of employment already. Getting one more to mitigate very real risks in the midst of pandemic, _especially_ for the people working in the middle of it, seems like a no-brainer.



I'll add (again) that the Occupational Health and Safety Act states that the employer shall take every reasonable precaution the ensure the safety of all workers in the work place. Therefore your assesment of it being a no-brainer is accurate. Particularly because the legislation has the word "shall" in it and not the word "may". One word in a sentence makes all the difference in the world in legislation.


----------



## Jim Wellington

You guys are really investing in fiction to keep up your narrative. You spin data to suit your perspective just like the media. Find something more productive to do with your time. I know I have.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> I'll add (again) that the Occupational Health and Safety Act states that the employer shall take every reasonable precaution the ensure the safety of all workers in the work place. Therefore your assesment of it being a no-brainer is accurate. Particularly because the legislation has the word "shall" in it and not the word "may". One word in a sentence makes all the difference in the world in legislation.


The credit union where my Maggs works let go 6 employees out of 312 who refused to get jabbed. Their union, Unifor, told the employees they had no leg to stand on and to get vaxxed. That's around 1.5% of the total staff - and 98.5% who have a better chance of remaining safer.


----------



## Milkman

Jim Wellington said:


> You guys are really investing in fiction to keep up your narrative. You spin data to suit your perspective just like the media. Find something more productive to do with your time. I know I have.


As evidenced by your posts, LOL.


----------



## tomee2

Jim Wellington said:


> You guys are really investing in fiction to keep up your narrative. You spin data to suit your perspective just like the media. Find something more productive to do with your time. I know I have.


You should call the head the head of the nurses' union and set them straight with some of your version of reality. 

Nurses 'abandoned' by Ont. premier, nurses' association CEO says










Nurses 'abandoned' by Ont. premier, nurses' association CEO says


As new restrictions take effect amid a major increase in COVID-19 hospitalizations, the CEO of the Registered Nurses Association of Ontario says the premier and the provincial government are ‘abandoning nurses.’




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## colchar

Choo5440 said:


> Friends of mine work at St Michael's Hospital Emergency - one of 2 major trauma centres in Toronto. They just told me that a couple of nights ago, only 2 (TWO) nurses were available for the entire emergency department, resulting in nurses being pulled from ICU. ICU already being short (nurses need specific training to work ICU/ED), meant that unqualified nurses were pulled in to manage ICU cases.
> 
> flattening the curve is real. and we're about to lose that battle in horrific fashion.
> believe what you want about the vaccines, covid itself, and treatments. But the reality of what's happening to hospitals is absolutely insane.
> 
> Stay safe out there


I don't think that is all that uncommon. 

I live a couple of hundred yards from Brampton Civic, which was one of the worst hit hospitals in previous waves. My elderly mother has dementia and went into hospital in the spring, and from there into long-term care. For the 2-3 years prior to that we had been dealing with a nurse who specializes in gerontology. She does not work on the wards, she is part of the care team in their specialty clinic. Things were so bad during the previous wave that shortly before my Mum ended up in hospital that nurse, and many others like her, had been pulled from their jobs and put on the wards for a couple of months. Their other departments had been basically shut down. She told me later that until they drafted her into service due to Covid she hadn't been on a ward for more than a decade. She was qualified/licensed, but hadn't done the job for more than a decade.


----------



## colchar

2manyGuitars said:


> Quoted for truth.
> 
> I’m currently waiting on x-rays to diagnose something that will likely require surgery. I’m almost 100% certain I will need it and they generally like to get it done within 2 to 4 weeks. I’m also almost certain that they will likely bump it due to hospitals being overrun and short staffed. FFS people...


But freedom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My rights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tyranny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## colchar

Mikev7305 said:


> Remember when the health care system fired all those health care professionals for being unvaxxed? Yet they will allow a covid positive vaxxed person go to work when they feel like shit. Man they could certainly use those qualified nurses that are sitting at home now



Those who test positive are only working with Covid patients so it doesn't matter that they are positive now does it?


----------



## 2manyGuitars

colchar said:


> But freedom!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> My rights!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Tyranny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I think it’s more a case of...


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> One word in a sentence makes all the difference in the world in legislation.



Very true, and yet Americans consistently ignore entire clauses in a sentence in their Bill of Rights.


----------



## Choo5440

colchar said:


> I don't think that is all that uncommon.
> 
> I live a couple of hundred yards from Brampton Civic, which was one of the worst hit hospitals in previous waves. My elderly mother has dementia and went into hospital in the spring, and from there into long-term care. For the 2-3 years prior to that we had been dealing with a nurse who specializes in gerontology. She does not work on the wards, she is part of the care team in their specialty clinic. Things were so bad during the previous wave that shortly before my Mum ended up in hospital that nurse, and many others like her, had been pulled from their jobs and put on the wards for a couple of months. Their other departments had been basically shut down. She told me later that until they drafted her into service due to Covid she hadn't been on a ward for more than a decade. She was qualified/licensed, but hadn't done the job for more than a decade.


you're referring to float nursing, and it absolutely happens regularly (which is a bandaid for insufficient staffing, but that's a whole other discussion)

this situation is where a team of what would normally be 15-20 nurses became 2. so essentially 10% of the scheduled staff + emergency callups was able to come in.

This is unprecedented from what I've ever heard of


----------



## colchar

2manyGuitars said:


> I think it’s more a case of...



Yep, that's them. The dumbest people you knew in high school, or know now, who all think they know more than epidemiologists. 

Just another demonstration of the arrogance of the ignorant.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

I dunno, I don’t see whole lotta freedom in this pic...








Thank goodness it’s “just like the flu”.


----------



## FatStrat2

^ That's me in there after I ate too much pizza.

Lots of people know lots of stuff, but they routinely ignore their own findings over their ideologies. That's on all sides.


----------



## allthumbs56

Choo5440 said:


> you're referring to float nursing, and it absolutely happens regularly (which is a bandaid for insufficient staffing, but that's a whole other discussion)
> 
> this situation is where a team of what would normally be 15-20 nurses became 2. so essentially 10% of the scheduled staff + emergency callups was able to come in.
> 
> This is unprecedented from what I've ever heard of


It's been 40-odd years so I may be making some of this up but I seem to remember a huge settlement sometime in the 80's for RN's - something like a 40% wage hike overnight. IIRC the healthcare systems response was to cut RN's and create new levels of nursing - PSW's, RNA's, etc to try and maintain staffing within budgets (which did not magically increase accordingly). Does anybody else have a better recollection of this - or am I loosing it?


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> I don't think that is all that uncommon.
> 
> I live a couple of hundred yards from Brampton Civic, which was one of the worst hit hospitals in previous waves. My elderly mother has dementia and went into hospital in the spring, and from there into long-term care. For the 2-3 years prior to that we had been dealing with a nurse who specializes in gerontology. She does not work on the wards, she is part of the care team in their specialty clinic. Things were so bad during the previous wave that shortly before my Mum ended up in hospital that nurse, and many others like her, had been pulled from their jobs and put on the wards for a couple of months. Their other departments had been basically shut down. She told me later that until they drafted her into service due to Covid she hadn't been on a ward for more than a decade. She was qualified/licensed, but hadn't done the job for more than a decade.


Sorry to hear about the reduced care your mum is receiving, courtesy of Covid. I'm sure it must weigh on you at least a little.

But you illustrate the scenario well. Let us not forget that nursing staff, being humans, are also susceptible to communicable diseases. Indeed, moreso than the average landscaper, snow-plow operator, or Lowe's shelf-stocker, because they work in a field where one cannot space one's self from others, and spend much of the working day in close proximity to lots and lots of sick people. Yes, they tend to have a better quality of face-mask than many of us, but that's not a brick wall. And, as a largely female profession, these same individuals are often parents who have been saddled with the task of home schooling on many an occasion. So it should not come as a surprise to anyone out there that the scenario you describe is happening in many places.

Is it happening *everywhere*? I certainly don't know, but I would imagine _some_ hospitals are in better shape than others, staff-wise...at least until overburdened hospitals elsewhere ship patients there.

And not to be a critic, just to clarify. *Gerontology* is the scientific study of how people develop and change as they get older. *Geriatrics* is the discipline of the health challenges and medical care of older adults. One certainly has to know _something_ of the physical changes with age, in order to understand psychological and social change with age, and I would hope those providing health care to older persons have some understanding of the life course and perspective of those persons, but the two are distinct specializations and professions. Given the overlap, it's a common and easy confusion, much like the way people will treat psychiatry and psychology, or anthropology and archeology as kinda sorta the same thing.


----------



## mhammer

2manyGuitars said:


> I dunno, I don’t see whole lotta freedom in this pic...
> View attachment 396032
> 
> Thank goodness it’s “just like the flu”.


One of the reasons why the cost-per-patient for Covid is higher is because it requires more nursing staff to tend to them. SOME places can afford contraptions like that rotating bed, but I imagine they are quite costly, and unlikely to be affordable by many hospitals for the entire slate of patients in ICU who require it. So, in the absence of such technological marvels, what happens is that a team of people has to come in on a regular basis, several times a day to turn the patient over. That's staff who aren't available to tend to other patients at the time, or respond to buzzers.


----------



## colchar

2manyGuitars said:


> I dunno, I don’t see whole lotta freedom in this pic...
> View attachment 396032
> 
> Thank goodness it’s “just like the flu”.


Oh come on, with the latest guidance around assuming you have Covid health officials have admitted that it is just a cold - so it isn't even as bad as the flu!


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> It's been 40-odd years so I may be making some of this up but I seem to remember a huge settlement sometime in the 80's for RN's - something like a 40% wage hike overnight. IIRC the healthcare systems response was to cut RN's and create new levels of nursing - PSW's, RNA's, etc to try and maintain staffing within budgets (which did not magically increase accordingly). Does anybody else have a better recollection of this - *or am I loosing it*?



I have no idea if you are loosing it or tightening it, but you just might be losing it.


----------



## colchar

2manyGuitars said:


> I think it’s more a case of...



This is the way they think:
_“I believe there is a sadistic effort underway to euthanize the American people,” Dave Bateman, co-founder of Entrata, a property management software company, wrote Tuesday, KSTU first reported.

“I believe the Jews are behind this,” he added._

............

_Bateman sent the email early Tuesday morning to more than 50 recipients, including Utah Gov. Spencer Cox (R), Utah Senate Minority Whip Luz Escamilla (D) and Ryan Smith, the owner of the Utah Jazz, KSTU reported. It included antisemitic and false claims that the Jewish people conspired to make a vaccine that would weaken immune systems to kill off billions of people and that for 300 years “Jews have been trying to infiltrate the Catholic Church and place a Jew covertly at the top.”

“I believe the pandemic and systematic extermination of billions of people will lead to an effort to consolidate all the countries in the world under a single flag with totalitarian rule,” Bateman wrote, according to KSTU._












Utah tech exec resigns after sending anti-Semitic email about vaccines


'I believe there is a sadistic effort underway to euthanize the American people'




torontosun.com


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> I have no idea if you are loosing it or tightening it, but you just might be losing it.


Thanks for that Teach. 👍

I mentioned this to a co-worker and she thinks it may have been even earlier - late 70's perhaps. Maybe a pay-equity thing. Can't find anything on the "net". It was big though - lot's of people going "they deserve it", followed by "How come our billions of dollars of healthcare budget doesn't buy us enough nurses anymore", and "We need more nurses but no way are we paying more in taxes".

Someone a little older than me must remember something...........................


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> This is the way they think:
> _“I believe there is a sadistic effort underway to euthanize the American people,” Dave Bateman, co-founder of Entrata, a property management software company, wrote Tuesday, KSTU first reported.
> 
> “I believe the Jews are behind this,” he added._
> 
> ............
> 
> _Bateman sent the email early Tuesday morning to more than 50 recipients, including Utah Gov. Spencer Cox (R), Utah Senate Minority Whip Luz Escamilla (D) and Ryan Smith, the owner of the Utah Jazz, KSTU reported. It included antisemitic and false claims that the Jewish people conspired to make a vaccine that would weaken immune systems to kill off billions of people and that for 300 years “Jews have been trying to infiltrate the Catholic Church and place a Jew covertly at the top.”
> 
> “I believe the pandemic and systematic extermination of billions of people will lead to an effort to consolidate all the countries in the world under a single flag with totalitarian rule,” Bateman wrote, according to KSTU._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Utah tech exec resigns after sending anti-Semitic email about vaccines
> 
> 
> 'I believe there is a sadistic effort underway to euthanize the American people'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> torontosun.com


I think this fellow has not only _loosened_ it, but it finally fell off. Although one thing made complete sense, and that is a definitive explanation of why the Pope wears a skullcap - because he's Jewish!


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> This is the way they think:
> _“I believe there is a sadistic effort underway to euthanize the American people,” Dave Bateman, co-founder of Entrata, a property management software company, wrote Tuesday, KSTU first reported.
> 
> “I believe the Jews are behind this,” he added._
> 
> ............
> 
> _Bateman sent the email early Tuesday morning to more than 50 recipients, including Utah Gov. Spencer Cox (R), Utah Senate Minority Whip Luz Escamilla (D) and Ryan Smith, the owner of the Utah Jazz, KSTU reported. It included antisemitic and false claims that the Jewish people conspired to make a vaccine that would weaken immune systems to kill off billions of people and that for 300 years “Jews have been trying to infiltrate the Catholic Church and place a Jew covertly at the top.”
> 
> “I believe the pandemic and systematic extermination of billions of people will lead to an effort to consolidate all the countries in the world under a single flag with totalitarian rule,” Bateman wrote, according to KSTU._
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Utah tech exec resigns after sending anti-Semitic email about vaccines
> 
> 
> 'I believe there is a sadistic effort underway to euthanize the American people'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> torontosun.com


That's just wild.

And scary that powerful people out there think that way and are positions of influence.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> I think this fellow has not only _loosened_ it, but it finally fell off. Although one thing made complete sense, and that is a definitive explanation of why the *Pope wears a skullcap - because he's Jewis*h!


Next you'll be telling me that bears actually don't shit in the woods...........................


----------



## 2manyGuitars

mhammer said:


> …a definitive explanation of why the Pope wears a skullcap - because he's Jewish!


Don’t be dumb. It’s called a Yamaha!


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> Thanks for that Teach. 👍
> 
> I mentioned this to a co-worker and she thinks it may have been even earlier - late 70's perhaps. Maybe a pay-equity thing. Can't find anything on the "net". It was big though - lot's of people going "they deserve it", followed by "How come our billions of dollars of healthcare budget doesn't buy us enough nurses anymore", and "We need more nurses but no way are we paying more in taxes".
> 
> Someone a little older than me must remember something...........................



Anyone a little older than you will be senile by now and won't remember jack shit.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

We are about 2 years into this now. I imagine everyone has some "battle fatigue", for lack of a better word, by now. I hope everyone is faring well under the circumstances. When I feel beat down by all of this I just remember my mom who lived her teenage years between 1939 and 1945 in England under much more dire circumstances and came out relatively OK. Let's all make our predecessors proud and show that we are made of fairly stern stuff genetically. If we are proud of those who came before and what they lived through, let's make those who come after feel the same way. Hang in there, we can do this. No matter which side of which coin you are on, someone cares and values you. It may not be me, I don't give a shit, but someone cares...I couldn't resist that last line, hope a bit of humour cheers you up.


----------



## colchar

I heard a doctor talking about this on the radio earlier this week. Apparently it is a real issue. I wonder if it will be enough to convince some of the male anti-vaxxers to reconsider? If not, they deserve whatever happens to them.










Yes, COVID-19 Can Cause Erectile Dysfunction


Research suggests negative effects on sexual health due to coronavirus




health.clevelandclinic.org














Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview


COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.




www.webmd.com














Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview


COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.




www.webmd.com


----------



## 2manyGuitars

colchar said:


> I heard a doctor talking about this on the radio earlier this week. Apparently it is a real issue. I wonder if it will be enough to convince some of the male anti-vaxxers to reconsider? If not, they deserve whatever happens to them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, COVID-19 Can Cause Erectile Dysfunction
> 
> 
> Research suggests negative effects on sexual health due to coronavirus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> health.clevelandclinic.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview
> 
> 
> COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview
> 
> 
> COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com


Too bad I’m already triple-dosed. I could use a little ED. I get so much action right now that I barely have any time to play my 1959 Les Paul, fly around in my private jet, and count my gold bars.


----------



## mhammer

2manyGuitars said:


> Too bad I’m already triple-dosed. I could use a little ED. I get so much action right now that I barely have any time to play my 1959 Les Paul, fly around in my private jet, and count my gold bars.


Sell the guitar and use the money to hire someone to do the counting for you.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> I heard a doctor talking about this on the radio earlier this week. Apparently it is a real issue. I wonder if it will be enough to convince some of the male anti-vaxxers to reconsider? If not, they deserve whatever happens to them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, COVID-19 Can Cause Erectile Dysfunction
> 
> 
> Research suggests negative effects on sexual health due to coronavirus
> 
> 
> 
> 
> health.clevelandclinic.org
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview
> 
> 
> COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Coronavirus (COVID-19) Overview
> 
> 
> COVID-19 is a new type of coronavirus that causes mild to severe cases. Here’s a quick guide on how to spot symptoms, risk factors, prevent spread of the disease, and find out what to do if you think you have it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.webmd.com



HMMM...maybe I have had Covid.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

And _this_ is why we can’t have nice lungs things...

A guy took this photo of the lady in front of him on a plane over the holidays. In case you can’t make it out, the reply she’s typing says;

We have Covid... shhh.
That’s why we’re
coming home a day
early. On the plane
now


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> HMMM...maybe I have had Covid.


Luckily Pfizer makes something for that too


----------



## allthumbs56

City of Toronto will be hiring ........









Toronto fires 461 workers for failing COVID vaccine mandate


Close to 99% of the city's 32,478 employees are fully vaccinated




torontosun.com


----------



## allthumbs56

Italy and Austria are making vaccinations mandatory. That won't go well here - especially if they try it in the States:









Italy makes COVID vaccine mandatory for everyone over age of 50


Italy, which has registered the second highest COVID death toll in Europe since February 2020, had already made vaccination mandatory for teachers and health…




nationalpost.com


----------



## keto

allthumbs56 said:


> Italy and Austria are making vaccinations mandatory. That won't go well here - especially if they try it in the States:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Italy makes COVID vaccine mandatory for everyone over age of 50
> 
> 
> Italy, which has registered the second highest COVID death toll in Europe since February 2020, had already made vaccination mandatory for teachers and health…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


There is zero scenario where that happens in the USA, why even say it?


----------



## mhammer

allthumbs56 said:


> Italy and Austria are making vaccinations mandatory. That won't go well here - especially if they try it in the States:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Italy makes COVID vaccine mandatory for everyone over age of 50
> 
> 
> Italy, which has registered the second highest COVID death toll in Europe since February 2020, had already made vaccination mandatory for teachers and health…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


While Italy is not known for public compliance in general, at the start of this last year, they were hit pretty hard. I was exchanging notes with a fellow in Siena, which is about 30km south of Florence, and he did not paint a very pretty picture. A LOT of deaths. Folks were losing grandparents left and right. So I suspect that anything mandatory is really going to be filling in the last few %.

I can't speak to anything about Austria.


----------



## Midnight Rider

laristotle said:


> Sabrina Maddeaux: Lockdowns are killing young Canadians
> 
> 
> Our nation’s younger generations are self-harming and dying in unprecedented numbers that appear to directly correlate with closures
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


Seems to be a case of the curing attempts becoming worse than the disease,... shocker!,


----------



## Midnight Rider

1SweetRide said:


> Let’s send the anti-maskers and anti-vaxers over there for a month.


Well,...now we know what side of Jordan Peterson's comments and concerns you sit on.
That a boy,... keep em' coming, lol. Just another ordinary man?


----------



## Midnight Rider

Dr. Robert Malone to Rogan: US in 'Mass Formation Psychosis' Over COVID-19
Key mRNA contributor Dr. Robert Malone, a prominent skeptic of mandatory COVID-19 vaccinations, gave an interview to popular podcaster Joe Rogan—days after Malone was suspended from Twitter—during which he suggested the United States is in the midst of a “mass formation psychosis.”

“Our government is out of control on this,” Malone said about vaccine mandates in the interview, which was published over the weekend. “And they are lawless. They completely disregard bioethics. They completely disregard the federal common-rule. They have broken all the rules that I know of, that I’ve been trained [in] for years and years and years.”

Malone, an expert in mRNA vaccine technologies who received training at UC Davis, UC San Diego, and the Salk Institute, was banned by Twitter last week. Malone told The Epoch Times last week that Twitter offered no explanation for why his account, which had amassed 500,000 followers, was suspended.

A spokesperson for Twitter told the left-wing Daily Dot outlet that Malone’s account “was permanently suspended for repeated violations of our COVID-19 misinformation policy … per the strike system outlined here, we will permanently suspend accounts for repeated violations of this policy.” Twitter has not responded to an Epoch Times’ request for comment on Malone’s suspension.


“These mandates … are explicitly illegal” and “are explicitly inconsistent with the Nuremberg Code,” Malone said during his Rogan interview, referring to the set of research ethics principles against human experimentation. “They are explicitly inconsistent with the Belmont report,” Malone added, referring to the 1978 report published in the Federal Register regarding ethical principles and guidelines for research involving human subjects.

“They are flat out illegal,” Malone added, “and they don’t care.”
Toward the end of his interview, Malone suggested that people are in the midst of what he called “mass formation psychosis,” drawing parallels to the mentality that developed among the German population in the 1920s and 1930s.

In those years, Germans “had a highly intelligent, highly educated population, and they went barking mad,” Malone said.


“When you have a society that has become decoupled from each other and has free-floating anxiety in a sense that things don’t make sense, we can’t understand it,” he continued. “And then their attention gets focused by a leader or series of events on one small point just like hypnosis. They literally become hypnotized and can be led anywhere.”

“They will follow that person. It doesn’t matter if they lie to them or whatever.”

Several years ago, he said, people were “complaining, the world doesn’t make sense” and that we weren’t “connected socially anymore, except through social media.”

“Then this thing happened,” Malone said, referring to the COVID-19 pandemic. “That is how mass formation psychosis happens and that is what has happened here.”


----------



## Midnight Rider

allthumbs56 said:


> Italy and Austria are making vaccinations mandatory. That won't go well here - especially if they try it in the States:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Italy makes COVID vaccine mandatory for everyone over age of 50
> 
> 
> Italy, which has registered the second highest COVID death toll in Europe since February 2020, had already made vaccination mandatory for teachers and health…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com


Damn straight it won't. What's this guys name again,... Mussolini?


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> HMMM...maybe I have had Covid.



What was your excuse before Covid?


----------



## colchar

2manyGuitars said:


> And _this_ is why we can’t have nice lungs things...
> 
> A guy took this photo of the lady in front of him on a plane over the holidays. In case you can’t make it out, the reply she’s typing says;
> 
> We have Covid... shhh.
> That’s why we’re
> coming home a day
> early. On the plane
> now
> View attachment 396079



What a selfish cunt.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

colchar said:


> What a selfish cunt.


And there are a million more, just like her.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Pure comic relief,... I know many here will sing along with one of their American Idols.
Ladies and gentlemen,... live from the HSS Town Hall,...please welcome the freshly former NIH Director Dr.Francis Collins, 👏




God help us all with characters such as this steering the ship,...is it any wonder we're living in the current shitshow.
No question about it,... he's much more preferable than Dr. Robert Malone, lol.


----------



## colchar

Ah yes, someone who has lied about their own background and credentials is a really reliable source eh? Pathetic fucking idiot.










What Is Mass Formation Psychosis? Robert Malone Makes Unfounded Covid-19 Vaccine Claims On Joe Rogan Show


Malone asserted how conditions before 2019 may have led to “mass formation psychosis” in the U.S. and that certain leaders have taken advantage of this situation.




www.forbes.com














The Vaccine Scientist Spreading Vaccine Misinformation


Robert Malone claims to have invented mRNA technology. Why is he trying so hard to undermine its use?




www.theatlantic.com


----------



## HighNoon

Hey Kids, Captain Covid here. Now before today's show I have a quick couple news items for you.

I'm sure you've heard the announcement made by Albert Bourla, CEO of Pfizer recently. For all of you lining up for your 3rd jab (and what a great job you're doing), Albert wants everyone to know there is more than enough product, ready and waiting, for your 4th jab. And he says, you might need it sooner than expected. So, good news for everyone.

Secondly, please don't be too concerned about the announcement in Canada, that Telus was tracing your whereabouts (some 33 million mobile devices) last year for Health Canada. You know this is for the good of everyone, especially for accumulating all the necessary data, to get to you, the citizen, the best health care in a proper and timely manner. Who knows what future pandemics could be on the horizon. And new tenders have been announced for upcoming further surveillance.....you just can't be too careful.

Now for today's show, where Justin calls anyone who doesn't get the jab a misogynist and racist. It's a doozy....


----------



## Guitar101

HighNoon said:


> Hey Kids, Captain Covid here. Now before today's show I have a quick couple news items for you.
> 
> I'm sure you've heard the announcement made by Albert Bourla, CEO of Pfizer recently. For all of you lining up for your 3rd jab (and what a great job you're doing), Albert wants everyone to know there is more than enough product, ready and waiting, for your 4th jab. And he says, you might need it sooner than expected. So, good news for everyone.


I does kinda feel like a cash grab but I got the Moderna booster so he's not making any money off of me. 😷


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> What was your excuse before Covid?


I wish I could think of something...lol

High blood pressure? Lack of practice? Moon phase? ...lol.


----------



## allthumbs56

HighNoon said:


> Hey Kids, Captain Covid here. Now before today's show I have a quick couple news items for you.
> 
> I'm sure you've heard the announcement made by Albert Bourla, CEO of Pfizer recently. For all of you lining up for your 3rd jab (and what a great job you're doing), Albert wants everyone to know there is more than enough product, ready and waiting, for your 4th jab. And he says, you might need it sooner than expected. So, good news for everyone.
> 
> Secondly, please don't be too concerned about the announcement in Canada, that Telus was tracing your whereabouts (some 33 million mobile devices) last year for Health Canada. You know this is for the good of everyone, especially for accumulating all the necessary data, to get to you, the citizen, the best health care in a proper and timely manner. Who knows what future pandemics could be on the horizon. And new tenders have been announced for upcoming further surveillance.....you just can't be too careful.
> 
> Now for today's show, where Justin calls anyone who doesn't get the jab a misogynist and racist. It's a doozy....


Yesterday's news - get on with the Show!


----------



## HighNoon

allthumbs56 said:


> Yesterday's news - get on with the Show!


Here's yesterday's news. From the WHO July 2020....always relevant and in the news.


“*Leverage anticipated regret in communications*.” For example, by “asking people how they would feel if they do not get vaccinated and end up contracting COVID-19 or transmitting it to loved ones.”
“*Emphasize the social benefits*.” Tell people that “vaccination not only benefits the individual” but builds “herd” or “population immunity”
“*Putting emphasis on the economic benefits*, such as being able to stay in the workforce and provide for one’s family, might also encourage vaccination”
*“Manage expectations.” *Since vaccine uptake may be “undermined by COVID-19 vaccines being not fully effective, meaning that people will have to continue to engage in preventive behaviour (e.g. maskwearing and physical distancing) even if and after they have been vaccinated.”
*Emphasize danger of disease*. “If people perceive that they are at low risk of contracting COVID-19, or that the consequences of becoming infected will not be severe, they will be less willing to get vaccinated.”
*Downplay dangers of vaccination and adverse event*s. “Some people may try to compare the risk of getting infected with that of taking a new vaccine, and determine that between the two, the risk of COVID-19 is lower.” Adverse events are “often inevitable when large numbers of people get vaccinated in a short period of time.” Neutralize the blow by “communicating proactively about uncertainty” and risk of vaccine-associated disability and death.


----------



## mhammer

And in other news from an equally nefarious and manipulative entity - yo mama:

I'm putting in a load of darks in the wash. Do you have anything to add to it?
The Weather Channel notes it's going to snow a lot later this evening and drop about 8 degrees. Maybe you should wear a hat and warmer jacket when you head out later today.
You'll be cold and hungry when you come back so I made a big pot of your favorite soup.
Did you get that job application into XXX? I remember you said the submission deadline was today.
Your desk is so messy. I don't know how you can find anything. Maybe it would be good to tidy it up a bit.
Your father tells me the car's tank is running low, so you'll probably need to gas up if you take the car.
Your friend phoned earlier. Something about a "gig". I wrote the message down. Do you want it?
What a cow. Always trying to run my life! Stay OUT of it!!


----------



## allthumbs56

HighNoon said:


> Here's yesterday's news. From the WHO July 2020....always relevant and in the news.
> 
> 
> “*Leverage anticipated regret in communications*.” For example, by “asking people how they would feel if they do not get vaccinated and end up contracting COVID-19 or transmitting it to loved ones.”
> “*Emphasize the social benefits*.” Tell people that “vaccination not only benefits the individual” but builds “herd” or “population immunity”
> “*Putting emphasis on the economic benefits*, such as being able to stay in the workforce and provide for one’s family, might also encourage vaccination”
> *“Manage expectations.” *Since vaccine uptake may be “undermined by COVID-19 vaccines being not fully effective, meaning that people will have to continue to engage in preventive behaviour (e.g. maskwearing and physical distancing) even if and after they have been vaccinated.”
> *Emphasize danger of disease*. “If people perceive that they are at low risk of contracting COVID-19, or that the consequences of becoming infected will not be severe, they will be less willing to get vaccinated.”
> *Downplay dangers of vaccination and adverse event*s. “Some people may try to compare the risk of getting infected with that of taking a new vaccine, and determine that between the two, the risk of COVID-19 is lower.” Adverse events are “often inevitable when large numbers of people get vaccinated in a short period of time.” Neutralize the blow by “communicating proactively about uncertainty” and risk of vaccine-associated disability and death.


It seems that "Yesterday's News" is a year and a half old "Talking Points" on how to encourage vaccination. Downright criminal.


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## tomee2

This is the thread that makes me leave GC, for good! ...

then I have to come back to see this thread....


----------



## HighNoon

allthumbs56 said:


> It seems that "Yesterday's News" is a year and a half old "Talking Points" on how to encourage vaccination. Downright criminal.


So to you, 'talking points' would include or result in shutdowns, employment loss, increase in suicides, missed life saving medical appointments, a percentage of the population put into an apartheid situation, price inflation for essential items, government debt eclipsing the previous 150 plus years, an ever growing possibility of economic collapse, arrests, detainments and fines for the citizenry, an increase in mass surveillance, and of course the ever popular, countering any voice that questions the roll out of these 'vaccines' through media control.....you got to love those, nothing to see here folks, Talking Points.


----------



## allthumbs56

HighNoon said:


> So to you, 'talking points' would include or result in shutdowns, employment loss, increase in suicides, missed life saving medical appointments, a percentage of the population put into an apartheid situation, price inflation for essential items, government debt eclipsing the previous 150 plus years, an ever growing possibility of economic collapse, arrests, detainments and fines for the citizenry, an increase in mass surveillance, and of course the ever popular, countering any voice that questions the roll out of these 'vaccines' through media control.....you got to love those, nothing to see here folks, Talking Points.


Actually I am merely referring to your own post. It's a classic move on your part to try, unsuccessfully, to put words in my mouth. I am not evil and you are most definitely not the victim or savior that you so wish to be.


----------



## Milkman




----------



## 2manyGuitars

...and there’s nothing in the July 2020 WHO talking points that isn’t true. Was that supposed to be some sort of “gotcha” post? If my job is looking out for people’s health in a pandemic and I’m trying to persuade them to follow health guidelines then yeah, I’m going to point out the bad things and emphasize the good.


----------



## HighNoon

allthumbs56 said:


> Actually I am merely referring to your own post. It's a classic move on your part to try, unsuccessfully, to put words in my mouth. I am not evil and you are most definitely not the victim or savior that you so wish to be.


We're all victims here.....and that's all inclusive.


----------



## HighNoon

2manyGuitars said:


> ...and there’s nothing in the July 2020 WHO talking points that isn’t true. Was that supposed to be some sort of “gotcha” post? If my job is looking out for people’s health in a pandemic and I’m trying to persuade them to follow health guidelines then yeah, I’m going to point out the bad things and emphasize the good.


The WHO didn't follow it's own mandate, which is, as you say to look out for people's health in a pandemic. And that's been true since the beginning, up to the pathetic WHO inquiry into origins of the virus, and to the present day.


----------



## Milkman




----------



## HighNoon

mhammer said:


> And in other news from an equally nefarious and manipulative entity - yo mama:
> 
> I'm putting in a load of darks in the wash. Do you have anything to add to it?
> The Weather Channel notes it's going to snow a lot later this evening and drop about 8 degrees. Maybe you should wear a hat and warmer jacket when you head out later today.
> You'll be cold and hungry when you come back so I made a big pot of your favorite soup.
> Did you get that job application into XXX? I remember you said the submission deadline was today.
> Your desk is so messy. I don't know how you can find anything. Maybe it would be good to tidy it up a bit.
> Your father tells me the car's tank is running low, so you'll probably need to gas up if you take the car.
> Your friend phoned earlier. Something about a "gig". I wrote the message down. Do you want it?
> What a cow. Always trying to run my life! Stay OUT of it!!


What a cute little post. But then again I would expect nothing less from the bureaucratic head of the Guitars Canada Chapter of the Cult of the Mask and Jab.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Milkman said:


>


Damn…
I remember when those 2 dudes were just starting out.


----------



## mhammer

Look, the title of the thread is "Covid-19 Updates". Admittedly, since pandemics require public policy responses, there has been an undercurrent of politics here, which is regrettable but understandable. But it has devolved into a your-side-vs-my-side bit of slop, and you've done much to encourage that and little to prevent it. If you beleve you are NOT simply trolling and taking delight in doing so, please clarify.

It's clear you feel that all those people who have devoted their lives to maintaining everyone's health have their heads up their asses, and are completely malevolent as well as incompetent. Apparently 30 and 40-year careers in public health pale in comparison to 3 year careers in podcasts. You have little more to offer than that, and no real information that could be considered as an "update" of any sort that provides benefit to anyone here.

So please stop with the nonsense. If you have anything to say that *improves* our collective situation, by all means post it But simply repeating that all the authorities are poopyheads whose mothers dress them funny accomplishes nothing of any value to anyone but yourself.

Apologies for being so harsh, but somewhere deep inside you, you know better.

As for David Pakman, his own meter swings more to the side of "clickbait" than "informative".


----------



## Milkman

mhammer said:


> Look, the title of the thread is "Covid-19 Updates". Admittedly, since pandemics require public policy responses, there has been an undercurrent of politics here, which is regrettable but understandable. But it has devolved into a your-side-vs-my-side bit of slop, and you've done much to encourage that and little to prevent it. If you beleve you are NOT simply trolling and taking delight in doing so, please clarify.
> 
> It's clear you feel that all those people who have devoted their lives to maintaining everyone's health have their heads up their asses, and are completely malevolent as well as incompetent. Apparently 30 and 40-year careers in public health pale in comparison to 3 year careers in podcasts. You have little more to offer than that, and no real information that could be considered as an "update" of any sort that provides benefit to anyone here.
> 
> So please stop with the nonsense. If you have anything to say that *improves* our collective situation, by all means post it But simply repeating that all the authorities are poopyheads whose mothers dress them funny accomplishes nothing of any value to anyone but yourself.
> 
> Apologies for being so harsh, but somewhere deep inside you, you know better.
> 
> As for David Pakman, his own meter swings more to the side of "clickbait" than "informative".


No question Pakman is left, but I think if you balance his clips with a few right wingers you may find some balance.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Milkman

Might as well try to lighten things up.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> Look, the title of the thread is "Covid-19 Updates". Admittedly, since pandemics require public policy responses, there has been an undercurrent of politics here, which is regrettable but understandable. But it has devolved into a your-side-vs-my-side bit of slop, and you've done much to encourage that and little to prevent it. If you beleve you are NOT simply trolling and taking delight in doing so, please clarify.
> 
> It's clear you feel that all those people who have devoted their lives to maintaining everyone's health have their heads up their asses, and are completely malevolent as well as incompetent. Apparently 30 and 40-year careers in public health pale in comparison to 3 year careers in podcasts. You have little more to offer than that, and no real information that could be considered as an "update" of any sort that provides benefit to anyone here.
> 
> So please stop with the nonsense. If you have anything to say that *improves* our collective situation, by all means post it But simply repeating that all the authorities are poopyheads whose mothers dress them funny accomplishes nothing of any value to anyone but yourself.
> 
> Apologies for being so harsh, but somewhere deep inside you, you know better.
> 
> As for David Pakman, his own meter swings more to the side of "clickbait" than "informative".


"Poopyheads"?

I love it 👍


----------



## laristotle

Milkman said:


> Might as well try to lighten things up.


----------



## Milkman

laristotle said:


>


Ken's sidekick looks like he doesn't know whether to shit or go blind, LOL!

Have you seen the


And strike one?

I'll find it.


----------



## mhammer

I think we're drifting here, in an unproductive way.


----------



## Choo5440

So, unfortunately, I had to visit Emerg last night.
Talking to the nurses there, a number of them had been working multiple double shifts in a row (16 hour days, one was on her 5th day in a row).

The ED itself was packed. I arrived before 6pm, and got discharged around 2. All healthcare is short right now, due to the fantastic combination of attrition, burnout, and sick leave. And we haven't even gotten close to the peak of this wave yet. 

If you think "it's just the flu" - remember that the flu/pneumonia is a top 10 killer of Canadians every year. "just The Flu" kills anywhere from 290k-650k people a year worldwide. 

I appreciate that lockdown sucks. I feel for businesses, families, kids, and all people. But the alternative is to risk losing all of these people to long term health complications or death. Don't know about some of those arguing in here, but that's not an even trade to me.


----------



## FatStrat2

Well, as Morton said to Johnson when Kinney was ripped apart by ED-209: "That's life in the big city."


----------



## Milkman

mhammer said:


> I think we're drifting here, in an unproductive way.


Maybe, but it was already swirling the bowl.


----------



## jayoldschool

Milkman said:


> Maybe, but it was already swirling the bowl.


Could use a couple more courtesy flushes.


----------



## laristotle

Well, until someone puts it back on course ..


----------



## colchar

Two Ontario children under age six die with COVID-19


"The best protection we can offer is for those of us who can, to get vaccinated," Dr. Eileen De Villa said




torontosun.com


----------



## Wardo

Choo5440 said:


> So, .........


For what it's worth, I appreciate that you take time to comment on here.


----------



## Doug Gifford

I was close to death twice this past year. Heart attack in March, gut surgery gone awry in August. It wasn't very nice (ask me about being on a ventilator) and I'm game to chance the vaccines to avoid going there again.

My experiences with the vax have been uniformly pleasant. The staff/volunteers were competent, efficient, relaxed and friendly. No aftereffects.


----------



## Wardo

Yeah on the vax, the three times that I’ve been there they did a really good job on processing people through it.


----------



## Eric Reesor

colchar said:


> Two Ontario children under age six die with COVID-19
> 
> 
> "The best protection we can offer is for those of us who can, to get vaccinated," Dr. Eileen De Villa said
> 
> 
> 
> 
> torontosun.com


From the article the most important point is this one;


> _
> “When we see children seriously ill and hospitalized it is a concern,” she said Thursday. “Those eligible to get vaccinated need to do so to reduce transmission and protect everyone else.
> 
> “The best protection we can offer is for those of us who can, to get vaccinated.” _


I have a vaccinated granddaughter who just turned 5 as the mandate to vaccinate children was finally approved. My feelings for the families affected by this tragedy caused me to weep. On the issue of anti vaxers, anti maskers and their ill begotten mentality and mistrust of those who care enough to risk their lives in service to others as front line health care workers do: their mentality seems about the same as suing the emergency workers for breaking a window to put out a fire in your house and save your children.


----------



## Midnight Rider

https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/2021-11/working-paper-64.pdf


----------



## Choo5440

Wardo said:


> For what it's worth, I appreciate that you take time to comment on here.


Thank you for that! 
though I have to admit having a space here to vent about what I see/deal with is also greatly appreciated


----------



## colchar

Eric Reesor said:


> From the article the most important point is this one;
> 
> I have a vaccinated granddaughter who just turned 5 as the mandate to vaccinate children was finally approved. My feelings for the families affected by this tragedy caused me to weep. On the issue of anti vaxers, anti maskers and their ill begotten mentality and mistrust of those who care enough to risk their lives in service to others as front line health care workers do: their mentality seems about the same as suing the emergency workers for breaking a window to put out a fire in your house and save your children.



Can you imagine being the parent of one of those babies and being forced to hear the fuckwits spouting that it is no worse than the flu and that anyone who dies only did so due to (alleged) underlying conditions? If one of them took out some of the anti-vax idiots no jury would convict them, especially not if there were people like me on the jury.


----------



## Eric Reesor

Midnight Rider said:


> https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/2021-11/working-paper-64.pdf
> View attachment 396268
> View attachment 396269


 The point of wearing a mask is not for your protection. It does however reduce the warm MOIST airborne output of an infected person wearing the mask thus reducing the risk of transmission because the virus is much more active in moist air expelled from an animal. The encapsulation of virus breaks down when the moisture in the environment is reduced and the virus becomes exposed to dryer oxygen. Hydrogen peroxide at over 400 ppm destroys the virus encapsulation in seconds whereas it can linger for longer periods of time in the air if the humidity is high and the air is warm thus having a lower O2 concentration. Dry cold air has higher O2 saturation and will break the encapsulation down faster than warm moist air.

In short waring a cloth mask does little to protect you but it sure as hell reduces the viral load in the air within confined spaces with warm moist air. And when you touch your mask and then stop to pick your nose then you are more likely to infect yourself from the moist air expelled from someone else that does not wear a mask and is infected.

It is currently my job to train staff in a care facility in the use of stronger hydrogen peroxide based cleaning solutions as well as help oversee the kitchen and food services.

We are mandated to wear masks at all times but the residents are not, there are some worrying outbreaks here currently in a very few of the myriad of seniors residences here in Lotus Land.


Only time will tell if the more infectious version of this virus is going to fade because by the looks of things there is no stopping it.

If we had not taken care to make sure everyone understands and follows the guidelines then I am certain that we would have been swept off the map during the first and second waves of covid. All we can do so far is slow down the spread and masking and getting vaccinated has done exactly that. As the quoted study indicates, reducing the velocity of the particulate with a mask lessens the cubic area of possible exposure. 

We implemented protocols early on in the pandemic and managed to avoid the murderous situation that went on in Ontario and just about everywhere else that was late to implement sensible outbreak procedures and the wearing of masks.
Here is hoping that the infectious disease specialists are right and this wave of infections fades quicker than the original viral genotypes of covid.

*BUT *and this is a big one, if we give up the fight and pull the same bullshit that some young people on Sunwing just did, then expect there to be even more carnage for seniors that could have been avoided.
I am 69 years old, a smoker and not in great shape. I am not looking forward to getting the virus but I know that being vaccinated and boosted gives me a better chance of not become a super spreader.
Just hoping this will be over and the Canucks can start kick the crap out of the Maple Laughs again when they go into their annual February slump.. It is a good thing that covid does not seem to spread by butt gas because for some reason or other there was a lot of it going on at work today. Guess it was the wieners and beans they got the other day for lunch


----------



## mhammer

Wardo said:


> Yeah on the vax, the three times that I’ve been there they did a really good job on processing people through it.


Our experiences have been the same, all 3 times. Though I won't take anything away from the pleasantness and professionalism of those individuals doing the check-in, injecting, and check-out, *somebody* had to plan it out, so I'm curious about who did all the planning and training. My first instinct is to assume it was people in the regional public health administration, though I could be wrong. Unlikely to be folks in the provincial health ministry, since that sort of micromanagement is not their baileywick, nor are they likely to be familiar with the local facilities and how to both make the choice of venue or obtain the needed personnel.

But whoever IS responsible for the planning and coordination, I salute them...big time. I can't speak to how comparably coordinated and smooth vaccination clinics are in other regions. But where we live (Ottawa), the experience was very positive.


----------



## Guitar101

Since you think you were misquoted. I've deleted my post.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Guitar101 said:


> Nice going. Now I have to choose between vigilantes and the anti-vaxers and I have to side with the anti-vaxers. "Taking them" out is a pretty strong statement which I absolutely do not agree with.


You know, there probably are options somewhere in the middle.


----------



## allthumbs56

2manyGuitars said:


> You know, there probably are options somewhere in the middle.


I agree. I have relatives who are rabid anti-vax. As much as I know they're wrong they have a right to be wrong.









John Ivison: When it comes to anti-vaxxers we need to talk about numbers — but in a civil tone


Nobody who reveres freedom of speech should be comfortable with a situation where limits are put on discussion and opposing voices are cancelled




nationalpost.com





_"It is true that 67 percent of hospitalizations in Ontario are people who have been vaccinated – but those people constitute 90 percent of the population._​​_There are 105 vaccinated patients per million inhabitants currently in hospital in the province because of COVID, compared to 532 unvaccinated patients._​​_When you look at the latest ICU cases, 52 percent are unvaccinated patients, despite making up just 10 percent of the population. There are nine vaccinated patients per one million inhabitants in Ontario’s ICUs, compared to 135 unvaccinated patients."_​
To me, the numbers tell the story. End. Stop.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## 2manyGuitars

allthumbs56 said:


> I agree. I have relatives who are rabid anti-vax. As much as I know they're wrong they have a right to be wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John Ivison: When it comes to anti-vaxxers we need to talk about numbers — but in a civil tone
> 
> 
> Nobody who reveres freedom of speech should be comfortable with a situation where limits are put on discussion and opposing voices are cancelled
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _"It is true that 67 percent of hospitalizations in Ontario are people who have been vaccinated – but those people constitute 90 percent of the population._​​_There are 105 vaccinated patients per million inhabitants currently in hospital in the province because of COVID, compared to 532 unvaccinated patients._​​_When you look at the latest ICU cases, 52 percent are unvaccinated patients, despite making up just 10 percent of the population. There are nine vaccinated patients per one million inhabitants in Ontario’s ICUs, compared to 135 unvaccinated patients."_​
> To me, the numbers tell the story. End. Stop.


Since I also love numbers and math, let's make those stats even MORE clear.

Hospitalization
105 vaccinated per million
532 unvaccinated per million
Since 90% of Ontarians are vaccinated, that means of that million, 900,000 are vaccinated and 100,000 are unvaccinated. Therefore, the 105 vaccinated is actually 105 out 900,000 or 11.66 per 100,000. For unvaccinated, the math is easy. It's 105 per 100,000 or almost 10 times more likely to burden our hospitals.

ICU cases
9 vaccinated per million
135 unvaccinated per million.
The math gets even easier for this one. The 9 cases from 900,000 is 1 per 100,000 and for unvaccinated, it's 135 per 100,000. That means an unvaccinated person is 135 times more likely to wind up in the ICU.

So to recap;
*Hospitalization*
Vaccinated = *11.66* per 100,000
Unvaccinated = *105* per 100,000

*ICU admission*
Vaccinated = *1* per 100,000
Unvaccinated = *135* per 100,000


----------



## colchar

Guitar101 said:


> Nice going. Now I have to choose between vigilantes and the anti-vaxers and I have to side with the anti-vaxers. "Taking them" out is a pretty strong statement which I absolutely do not agree with.


Read what I wrote again.

I didn't say they should be taken out, I said that if a parent who had lost a baby to Covid took any out because of the crap that they spout, the jury wouldn't convict.


----------



## allthumbs56

Mandatory vaccinations coming to Canada, believes health minister Jean-Yves Duclos | National Post 

_“I see it coming personally. Not now. I don’t think we are there yet. "_​
I dunno. If we're to believe that Omicron will be ripping through the population in a matter of the next few weeks - leaving it's survivors "super -immune" then what's the point of starting a six-month process _sometime in the future_?


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> Mandatory vaccinations coming to Canada, believes health minister Jean-Yves Duclos | National Post
> 
> _“I see it coming personally. Not now. I don’t think we are there yet. "_​
> I dunno. If we're to believe that Omicron will be ripping through the population in a matter of the next few weeks - leaving it's survivors "super -immune" then what's the point of starting a six-month process _sometime in the future_?



But does one become super immune after having Covid?


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> But does one become super immune after having Covid?


I've seen a couple articles that suggest that having both shots (and/or the booster) and having survived an Omicron infection you will truly be Ubermensch. 👍

Until the next variant, anyway. 😖


----------



## Milkman

allthumbs56 said:


> I've seen a couple articles that suggest that having both shots (and/or the booster) and having survived an Omicron infection you will truly be Ubermensch. 👍
> 
> Until the next variant, anyway. 😖



I hope they're right.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> I hope they're right.


It's like a broken watch or predicting the weather - at some point you gotta be right


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> But does one become super immune after having Covid?


Depends on which variant and how long ago. John Campbell had an interesting youtube video a few days ago, citing a recent study which indicated that there is no improvement in immunity to Omicron after having had Delta, but surprisingly good immunity to Delta after having contracted and beaten Omicron. 

Naturally, recent vaccination improves both scenarios. And again, folks should note that antibody production in response to a pathogen declines with time-since-exposure, with the capacity for resumed antibody production retained by "memory cells". The resumption of antibody production takes a bit of time (and I'm sure whoever figures out how to expedite the body's natural resumption of antibody production will move to the front of the Nobel-for-medicine line). The challenge with Delta was that the proliferation speed of that variant was much faster than our immune system's warm-up time, such that by the time we got up to cruising speed, we would be fighting against a VERY big viral load. One could probably expect _eventual_ recovery from infection, but there would be no defense prompt and sizeable enough to stop infection so quickly as to preclude symptoms. Omicron seems to replicate very quickly, as well, which is part of why it is so contagious (though not the whole basis of its contagiousness).

We know that people CAN become reinfected, though I am unaware of any specific stats on reinfection rates for the different variants, either in general, or as a function of time course (e.g., if previous symptomatic infection was 1, 2, 4, 8 months ago). Of course, given that we are on the, what, fifth variant in 24 months, and given that rising case numbers are staggered geographically (i.e., _this_ place has a massive outbreak, then _that_ place has an outbreak 3 weeks later, and a 3rd place starts seeing what the first place did 6 weeks later, etc.), it is understandable that we don't have the sort of stats to provide strong inferences about relative risk.


----------



## Choo5440

mhammer said:


> Depends on which variant and how long ago. John Campbell had an interesting youtube video a few days ago, citing a recent study which indicated that there is no improvement in immunity to Omicron after having had Delta, but surprisingly good immunity to Delta after having contracted and beaten Omicron.
> 
> Naturally, recent vaccination improves both scenarios. And again, folks should note that antibody production in response to a pathogen declines with time-since-exposure, with the capacity for resumed antibody production retained by "memory cells". The resumption of antibody production takes a bit of time (and I'm sure whoever figures out how to expedite the body's natural resumption of antibody production will move to the front of the Nobel-for-medicine line). The challenge with Delta was that the proliferation speed of that variant was much faster than our immune system's warm-up time, such that by the time we got up to cruising speed, we would be fighting against a VERY big viral load. One could probably expect _eventual_ recovery from infection, but there would be no defense prompt and sizeable enough to stop infection so quickly as to preclude symptoms. Omicron seems to replicate very quickly, as well, which is part of why it is so contagious (though not the whole basis of its contagiousness).
> 
> We know that people CAN become reinfected, though I am unaware of any specific stats on reinfection rates for the different variants, either in general, or as a function of time course (e.g., if previous symptomatic infection was 1, 2, 4, 8 months ago). Of course, given that we are on the, what, fifth variant in 24 months, and given that rising case numbers are staggered geographically (i.e., _this_ place has a massive outbreak, then _that_ place has an outbreak 3 weeks later, and a 3rd place starts seeing what the first place did 6 weeks later, etc.), it is understandable that we don't have the sort of stats to provide strong inferences about relative risk.


 This is anecdotal evidence, but where I work, i have seen clients come through a few times - infected with the original strain, then the UK, and then delta. haven't seen anyone come through for a 4th visit yet though, but it's still early 🤦‍♂️


----------



## mhammer

Choo5440 said:


> This is anecdotal evidence, but where I work, i have seen clients come through a few times - infected with the original strain, then the UK, and then delta. haven't seen anyone come through for a 4th visit yet though, but it's still early 🤦‍♂️


Thanks for qualifying it as anecdotal. I guess the inference is that it CAN happen, although how often, and to what sort of individual (observing what sorts of health behaviours) is an unknown.


----------



## allthumbs56

Choo5440 said:


> This is anecdotal evidence, but where I work, i have seen clients come through a few times - infected with the original strain, then the UK, and then delta. haven't seen anyone come through for a 4th visit yet though, but it's still early 🤦‍♂️


4th visit you have to stamp their card and they get a free colonoscopy 👍


----------



## tomee2

allthumbs56 said:


> Not defending the guy - I'm not a fan. Just pointing out that the second article's headline is incorrect (debunked by the 1st line of the article) and this goes back to an interview in September. Regardless, very poor choices when it comes to the words he chose.
> 
> I also thought it rather ironic when he referred to the kids on the plane as "idiots" for doing a bit of irresponsible partying. There's enough pics of a young PM out doing the very same - worse even. The kids on the plane just need to do a little "reflecting" is all.


They guy went surfing on national reconciliation day.... i simply can't take anything he says seriously


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> The kids on the plane just need to do a little "reflecting" is all.


But, were they speaking moistly?


----------



## Midnight Rider

2manyGuitars said:


> You know, there probably are options somewhere in the middle.


Explain.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Midnight Rider said:


> Explain.


Explain that there’s a range of options between being anti-vaxx and killing anti-vaxxers?

Are you really that obtuse?


----------



## laristotle

'I see it coming': Mandatory vaccinations on the horizon, federal health minister says


'Our people are tired and the only way as we know through COVID–19, be it this variant or any future variant, is through vaccination,' Duclos said at a press…




nationalpost.com





_“I see in my own province 50 per cent of hospitalizations now in Quebec are due to people *not having* been vaccinated,” he said. “That’s a burden on healthcare workers, a burden on society which is very difficult to bear and for many people difficult to understand.” _

But, 50% of hospitalizations that are vaxxed are not a burden?
People are also finding it difficult to understand how being vaxxed lands one in the hospital too.


----------



## keto

laristotle said:


> 'I see it coming': Mandatory vaccinations on the horizon, federal health minister says
> 
> 
> 'Our people are tired and the only way as we know through COVID–19, be it this variant or any future variant, is through vaccination,' Duclos said at a press…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _“I see in my own province 50 per cent of hospitalizations now in Quebec are due to people *not having* been vaccinated,” he said. “That’s a burden on healthcare workers, a burden on society which is very difficult to bear and for many people difficult to understand.” _
> 
> But, 50% of hospitalizations that are vaxxed are not a burden?


Man, I saw comments all over the internet like that today, learn2math.


----------



## laristotle

keto said:


> Man, I saw comments all over the internet like that today, learn2math.


Please, elaborate?


----------



## Midnight Rider

2manyGuitars said:


> Explain that there’s a range of options between being anti-vaxx and killing anti-vaxxers?
> 
> Are you really that obtuse?


No,... fairly acute actually.
lol,,...Listen, what I meant by explain was,... well,...explain.
As in,... explain the range of options in the middle you may have in mind that may exist between not killing the unvaccinated and killing the unvaccinated. Just sounded like you had something cooking upstairs for a minute or two.


----------



## laristotle

Chris Selley: Hating Sunwing's Cancun 'idiots' only distracts from bigger screw-ups here


Don't let the party plane distract you from closed schools, pitiful testing capacity, health-care systems so under-resourced they’re overwhelmed just by…




nationalpost.com




_On Wednesday Prime Minister Justin Trudeau called the travellers “idiots.” No fewer than three federal ministers — health, transport and public safety — are demanding investigations from their departments, with Health Minister Jean-Yves Duclos vowing “passengers … will be held accountable for their actions.

”If the federal government had properly been held to account for its pathetic performance at the border, Duclos would by rights be afraid even to mention the word “fines.” Auditor-General Karen Hogan recently reported that Ottawa has absolutely no idea what happened to 60 per cent of the charges previously laid for border-related infractions. Famously, the feds allowed international flights to land in Calgary despite having no agreement with Alberta to have local police lay border-related charges at all. So people just waltzed out of the airport as the pleased, and why wouldn’t they?

But the federal government hasn’t been properly held to account for any of that. So it manages to get away with this ridiculously transparent diversionary tactic. Judging by reactions on social media, where Canadians have gleefully been mapping out the influencers’ bus trips home and otherwise wishing them ill, we’re all falling for it hook line and sinker. Again._


----------



## 2manyGuitars

keto said:


> Man, I saw comments all over the internet like that today, learn2math.





laristotle said:


> Please, elaborate?


I laid it out a few posts back but here goes…

I have a city of 100,000 people with 90% vaccinated. I have 1000 people hospitalized which are evenly split between vaxxed and unvaxxed. “So I guess it makes no difference if I get the shot or not. Right?”
Wrong.

So out of my 90,000 *vaccinated* citizens, 500 are in the hospital or *1 out of every 180*.

Out of my 10,000 *unvaccinated* citizens, 500 are also in the hospital but that makes *1 out of every 20*.

If that doesn’t explain it clearly enough, try this…

If everyone were *100% vaccinated*, that 1 out of every 180 would extrapolate to *556 hospitalized*.

If everyone were *100% UNvaccinated*, the 1 out of every 20 would extrapolate to *5,000 hospitalized*.

STOP PRETENDING THAT BEING UNVACCINATED ISN’T CAUSING PROBLEMS!!!

Make your choice and live with it but don’t fool yourself that you’re not part of the problem and certainly don’t keep trying to convince me that you’re not.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Midnight Rider said:


> Just sounded like you had something cooking upstairs for a minute or two.


You give me way too much credit. 😆


----------



## laristotle

2manyGuitars said:


> STOP PRETENDING THAT BEING UNVACCINATED ISN’T CAUSING PROBLEMS!!!


I understood your comment to be directed at the 50% comment made in the news article.
What math makes up the other 50%?


----------



## Midnight Rider

2manyGuitars said:


> I laid it out a few posts back but here goes…
> 
> I have a city of 100,000 people with 90% vaccinated. I have 1000 people hospitalized which are evenly split between vaxxed and unvaxxed. “So I guess it makes no difference if I get the shot or not. Right?”
> Wrong.
> 
> So out of my 90,000 *vaccinated* citizens, 500 are in the hospital or *1 out of every 180*.
> 
> Out of my 10,000 *unvaccinated* citizens, 500 are also in the hospital but that makes *1 out of every 20*.
> 
> If that doesn’t explain it clearly enough, try this…
> 
> If everyone were *100% vaccinated*, that 1 out of every 180 would extrapolate to *556 hospitalized*.
> 
> If everyone were *100% UNvaccinated*, the 1 out of every 20 would extrapolate to *5,000 hospitalized*.
> 
> STOP PRETENDING THAT BEING UNVACCINATED ISN’T CAUSING PROBLEMS!!!
> 
> Make your choice and live with it but don’t fool yourself that you’re not part of the problem and certainly don’t keep trying to convince me that you’re not.


Obviously a hypothetical scenario with an array of possible variables not included in the equations.
Modelling and assumptions to not include realtime world data and for the most part have never been accurate. Shit, we have a local whether forecaster here in my neck of the woods and it seems his batting average for getting it right is in and around the 50% area,... hell, I can stick my head out the window or put a jar of bear fat on the window sill and have a higher accuracy, lol.

But,... he always goes on about his precious modelling program predictions as if they are accurate,... a local running joke in my community.

Also, if your scenario was real world I *would* get the jab as a case count of 1,000 in every 100,000 globally would surely result in bodies being stacked sky high.

Yup,...the city of 'Hypothetical' is surely screwed here.


----------



## keto

So, we're OK with <15% of the population sucking up 50% (likely more, but we’ll go with that) of the involved resources? You can't see why that's problematic? It's leading to all the crap you and I both hate so much.


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> Please, elaborate?


Look up a bit. 2Many and I have both elaborated in pretty good detail. Specifically posts 4440, 4442, and 4464. You really can't argue these findings.


----------



## Guitar101

colchar said:


> Read what I wrote again.
> 
> I didn't say they should be taken out, I said that if a parent who had lost a baby to Covid took any out because of the crap that they spout, the jury wouldn't convict.


Since you think you were misquoted, I've deleted my original post.


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> Look up a bit. 2Many and I have both elaborated in pretty good detail. Specifically posts 4440, 4442, and 4464. You really can't argue these findings.


The quote from the article that I italicized is from the federal Health Minister Jean-Yves Duclos. 
They're not my words. Confront him if you feel that they're inaccurate.


----------



## colchar

Guitar101 said:


> Since you think you were misquoted, I've deleted my original post.



A mature, reasonable response? You must be new to internet forums....................


----------



## allthumbs56

laristotle said:


> The quote from the article that I italicized is from the federal Health Minister Jean-Yves Duclos.
> They're not my words. Confront him if you feel that they're inaccurate.


Yes - but it wasn't proportional. When you look at the relative size of the pools that those are being drawn from is when you see the significance. Which is what 2Many and I were pointing out.

If you were to say half of the people who die are obese and half aren't would you use those numbers to say that obesity has nothing to do with dying? Of course not.


----------



## laristotle

I never questioned the numbers that you two posted.


----------



## Wardo




----------



## Choo5440

Wardo said:


> View attachment 396629


That reminds me of the swabs that I've collected from people way too much 😂


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Well, let's just hope that with this less deadly strain that everyone, vaxed or not, can pull through with good success, whether they need medical intervention or not. Let's also hope that the medical resources stay within their capacity and staffed better as time goes on. I think everyone would agree that improving the situation is a priority for all.


----------



## Mark Brown

Jim DaddyO said:


> Well, let's just hope that with this less deadly strain that everyone, vaxed or not, can pull through with good success, whether they need medical intervention or not. Let's also hope that the medical resources stay within their capacity and staffed better as time goes on. I think everyone would agree that improving the situation is a priority for all.


Amen to that. People need to just stop being crazy no matter what their views and just get back to having a shred of dignity and compassion for one another. No one, ok maybe some people, makes decisions for themselves just because they hate you. Do not do the same.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Midnight Rider said:


> Obviously a hypothetical scenario with an array of possible variables not included in the equations.
> Yup,...the city of 'Hypothetical' is surely screwed here.


But here's the wonderful thing about math...
The equation is the equation no matter what numbers you put into it. Here's what I mean;

While my actual numbers were made up, the percentages aren't. The ACTUAL percentage of vaccinated Ontarians is 90% and at least for the hospital cited in the post that started it all, the split between vaxxed and unvaxxed was 50/50. Whether it's a city of 100 inhabitants, 50,000 or even 5 million, and whether it's 10 in the hospital or a half-million, the math still means that the unvaccinated are nine times more likely to wind up in the hospital.

Don't believe me? So in my hypothetical city, it was 1 in 20 unvaxxed and 1 in 180 vaxxed so 9 times.
V=Vaccinated and U=Unvaccinated

Fake City A
Poulation: 5,000 (4500 V and 500 U)
Hospitalized: 40 (20 V and 20 U)
Rate: 1 in 225 V and 1 in 25 U
25 to 225 is a factor of 9

Fake City B
Poulation: 360,000 (324,000 V and 36,000 U)
Hospitalized: 400 (200 V and 200 U)
Rate: 1 in 1,620 V and 1 in 180 U
180 to 1,620 is a factor of 9

I can keep plugging numbers in all day but with the vaccinated rate at 90% and the hospitalization rate at 50%, the rate _*IS*_ 9 times higher for unvaccinated.

So, if "the city of 'Hypothetical' is surely screwed here" then thank you for pointing out that the *real* city is screwed. The question is, what are we going to do about it?


----------



## mhammer

Brunz said:


> Amen to that. People need to just stop being crazy no matter what their views and just get back to having a shred of dignity and compassion for one another. No one, ok maybe some people, makes decisions for themselves just because they hate you. Do not do the same.


Welcome. Reasonableness always has value.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

2manyGuitars said:


> The question is, what are we going to do about it?


Nothing.

Do what you think is best for yourself, let others make their own decision. I'm vaxed, I go for my booster on Wednesday, that takes care of everyone I am responsible for and everyone I have to answer to.

I can still get Covid and if I do I can still spread it. I am just increasing my odds of not doing that, or reducing the chances of getting the worst circumstances if I do get it IMHO. That's my choice.


----------



## Mikev7305

2manyGuitars said:


> can keep plugging numbers in all day but with the vaccinated rate at 90% and the hospitalization rate at 50%, the rate _*IS*_ 9 times higher for unvaccinated.


Except the vaccinated rate ISN'T 90%, it's 77%.









Remember you can't use the over 12 rate for general population when the hospitals are counting EVERYONE from any age group. 
So hospitalizations in Ontario today:








Getting pretty damn close to the general population there. 

There's a BIT of a difference... 70% of the hospital cases are vaxxed, and 77% of the country is vaxxed. Nowhere near what you are explaining


----------



## mhammer

Very little of those calculations and conclusions make sense, based on what we know.

In Ontario, 82% of those 5 or older are fully vaxed, with an additional 6% partly vaxed. If we restrict our headcount to those 12 and up, given the difficulty of getting younger children vaxed, and the recency of approval for younger children, it's 88% fully, and an additional 3% partly vaxed. So, 10 times as many Ontarians, 12 and older have at least one shot, as there are people with none.

If vaccination status made no difference, we should expect 9.77 times as many fully-vaxed Ontarians to be in hospital, compared to unvaxed. That is, the same proportion of persons *within* the vaxed and unvaxed sub-populations should be in hospital.

The latest data for Ontario indicates that 457 unvaxed persons are currently in hospital. Generalizing from the unvaxed to the fully vaxed sub-population, we would expect to see 4468 fully-vaxed persons in hospital. But we only see 1353 at the moment. We also see 115 partly-vaxed cases in hospital. Since there are approximately 3x as many unvaxed persons in the province as there are partly-vaxed, then it appears 1 shot is not providing any sort of advantage or protection. It takes two to tango.

Long story short, an unvaxed person is 3x more likely to end up in hospital than a vaxed person.

Let's make it more serious.123 unvaxed cases in ICU today, 18 partly vaxed, and 137 fully vaxed cases. Once again, generalizing from the proportion of unvaxed, we would expect to see 1203 fully vaxed and 41 partly-vaxed persons in ICU. Fully-vaxed persons are 8.78x less likely to end up in ICU than unvaxed (i.e., unvaxed are 8.78x MORE likely to end up in ICU). Being partly vaxed improves things a bit beyond being unvaxed (2.28x) but once again, being fully vaxed is the ticket.

These numbers are for Ontario only, and for those 12 or older. I expect them to be representative of other provinces, and for all those 5 and up, once school-age kids start getting their 2nd poke, and have had sufficient time for it to work its magic.

The numbers tell a pretty convincing story. If someone offered you a potion that would reduce your risk of ending up in an Alzheimer's, ALS, or cancer ward by a validated 878%, would you take it?


----------



## player99

mhammer said:


> Very little of those calculations and conclusions make sense, based on what we know.
> 
> In Ontario, 82% of those 5 or older are fully vaxed, with an additional 6% partly vaxed. If we restrict our headcount to those 12 and up, given the difficulty of getting younger children vaxed, and the recency of approval for younger children, it's 88% fully, and an additional 3% partly vaxed. So, 10 times as many Ontarians, 12 and older have at least one shot, as there are people with none.
> 
> If vaccination status made no difference, we should expect 9.77 times as many fully-vaxed Ontarians to be in hospital, compared to unvaxed. That is, the same proportion of persons *within* the vaxed and unvaxed sub-populations should be in hospital.
> 
> The latest data for Ontario indicates that 457 unvaxed persons are currently in hospital. Generalizing from the unvaxed to the fully vaxed sub-population, we would expect to see 4468 fully-vaxed persons in hospital. But we only see 1353 at the moment. We also see 115 partly-vaxed cases in hospital. Since there are approximately 3x as many unvaxed persons in the province as there are partly-vaxed, then it appears 1 shot is not providing any sort of advantage or protection. It takes two to tango.
> 
> Long story short, an unvaxed person is 3x more likely to end up in hospital than a vaxed person.
> 
> Let's make it more serious.123 unvaxed cases in ICU today, 18 partly vaxed, and 137 fully vaxed cases. Once again, generalizing from the proportion of unvaxed, we would expect to see 1203 fully vaxed and 41 partly-vaxed persons in ICU. Fully-vaxed persons are 8.78x less likely to end up in ICU than unvaxed (i.e., unvaxed are 8.78x MORE likely to end up in ICU). Being partly vaxed improves things a bit beyond being unvaxed (2.28x) but once again, being fully vaxed is the ticket.
> 
> These numbers are for Ontario only, and for those 12 or older. I expect them to be representative of other provinces, and for all those 5 and up, once school-age kids start getting their 2nd poke, and have had sufficient time for it to work its magic.
> 
> The numbers tell a pretty convincing story. If someone offered you a potion that would reduce your risk of ending up in an Alzheimer's, ALS, or cancer ward by a validated 878%, would you take it?


Has anyone calculated into the stats that perhaps people that are vaccinated may also be more diligent about mask wearing, isolating etc? Covid avoidance behaviour isn't being worked into how well the vaccines work. Or is it?


----------



## FatStrat2

mhammer said:


> ...If someone offered you a potion that would reduce your risk of ending up in an Alzheimer's, ALS, or cancer ward by a validated 878%, would you take it?


I think anyone with their wits still intact would take that (given it's proven it works).

But again, you're coming up with some thought-provoking stats (if accurate and they usually aren't at wartime) and a fair argument, then you flush it all by throwing a fear-mongering wrench into it at the end. The above line is yet another apples to oranges exaggeration snuck in as if it's normal to compare those serious chronic, life altering and non-contagious diseases with Omicron - it's not real world and it's not the same. I'm betting similar stats for the annual flu vs Omicron, yet I've never had a flu shot in my life.

If I get older w/ more delicate health or immune compromised, sure - I'll probably take the flu shot then and close the door locally (at least for last year's variant) - but I won't expect or demand that others do - especially globally.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

player99 said:


> Has anyone calculated into the stats that perhaps people that are vaccinated may also be more diligent about mask wearing, isolating etc? Covid avoidance behaviour isn't being worked into how well the vaccines work. Or is it?


I don't think there are many public places you can go into without a mask, so that's a wash. Private get togethers may be a different story though. I don't think there is any way to keep stats on that. If a group gets together at someone's home (vaxed, unvaxed, or a mix), and no one gets sick, how could there be any kind of reporting on that to get a statistic?


----------



## Midnight Rider

Family Covid infection update: Full Disclosure
Over the last four weeks a combined total of 11 members between my wife's and my family have been infected with Covid. Some for first time and some for a second,... some vaccinated and some not with no hospitalizations of any individuals. All seem to have mostly the same mild symptoms,... fatigue, headache off and on, joint aches, overall feeling of flu like symptoms that seem to come and go in waves.A few had low fever, chills and cough. All tested positive using the available rapid test kits and test centres,... some tested themselves more than once.

Out of the eleven 5 are female and 6 are male. They are in various stages of recovery with most only having been feeling ill for 5 to 7 days then back on their feet again doing normal activity,... including my wife.

Joan: age 82 - double vaccinated - 1st Covid infection - fully recovered.
Terry: age 65 - double vaccinated - 1st Covid infection - fully recovered.
Barry: age 63 - double vaccinated - 1st Covid infection - fully recovered.
Ken: age 32 - double vaccinated - 1st Covid infection - fully recovered.

Pam(_Nurse_): age 64 - unvaccinated - 2nd Covid infection (1st infection was in February 2020) - fully recovered.
Norm: age 66 - unvaccinated - 2nd Covid infection(1st infection was in February 2020) - fully recovered.
Doug(USA resident): age 59 - unvaccinated - 2nd Covid infection(first infection was in February 2020) - fully recovered (and enjoying the warm sun in FLA in his new 28 foot fishing boat,... lucky bastard).
Natalie(_Hospital Healthcare worker_): age 36 - double vaccinated - 1st Covid infection - fully recovered.
James - age 38 - double vaccinated - 1st Covid infection - fully recovered. Went on a business trip to Quebec for 5 days a week before Christmas and tested positive a few days after returning home. Most likely his wife contracted the virus from him. They have two young children ages 9 and 5, both have tested negative and showing no signs of being infected.

Cheryl(my wife): age 60 - unvaccinated - 1st Covid infection - fully recovered and back to work. First time she was off work due to illness since this pandemic started. She felt mildly ill for only 5 days before bouncing back. She keeps herself in very good shape with an extremely healthy diet including herbs and supplements,... we both share the same lifestyle. She works at a privately owned and very popular local grocery store in our area. She is one of the dedicated heroes in my eyes during this pandemic by helping ensure that the doors are open for the sale of food. While many other employees at the store would either quit or stay home on CERB she has been taking on extra shifts resulting in long hours and stretches of seven days a week to ensure her employer can supply one of the most important essential services to the community.

I pity the fool who should ever criticize her for not being vaccinated. If I were present at the very least they would receive one bitch'n of a tongue lashing,... or worse, depending on their level of stupidity. She has had to deal with a few asshole customers over the last year who had criticized her for wearing a shield instead of a mask,... their lucky I wasn't standing in line. I guess her wearing a shield along with a 1/4 inch wall of plexiglass between her and the nut jobs wearing a mask on the other side just isn't quite good enough, 🤡.

Me: age 61 - unvaccinated - comorbidities - 1st Covid infection February 2020 - fully recovered
Second Covid infection: pending rapid test result if I can find one or pharmacy test this coming week.


----------



## player99

Jim DaddyO said:


> I don't think there are many public places you can go into without a mask, so that's a wash. Private get togethers may be a different story though. I don't think there is any way to keep stats on that. If a group gets together at someone's home (vaxed, unvaxed, or a mix), and no one gets sick, how could there be any kind of reporting on that to get a statistic?


I don't expect there to be any reporting for that statistic.

Not all masks are equal, and not all wearers are wearing them equally. I use N95 masks always, with a regular 3 ply on top of it so if I touch my mask to reseat it or adjust it I am not touching the N95. I see so many people with dirty spitty masks that the wire isn't even flattened against their nose, or it's not even covering their nose. Lots of people in retail wear a stretchy single ply dirty bandana type of (I can't say mask) covering that is essentially useless. The parts guy at my local Canadian Tire is one of those guys. I don't go out unless I have to. I wear the 2 masks plus I always wear nitrile gloves anywhere in public, and I frequently sterilize them. When I get back to my car I use the alcohol sterilizer and then throw the gloves out. I don't eat out, I don't eat take-out, I have no social life, I have very few people I actually interact with. I really am working hard not to get covid even though I am triple vaccinated.

My question is how well is the vaccine is working vs how diligent are the vaccinated?


----------



## allthumbs56

player99 said:


> I don't expect there to be any reporting for that statistic.
> 
> Not all masks are equal, and not all wearers are wearing them equally. I use N95 masks always, with a regular 3 ply on top of it so if I touch my mask to reseat it or adjust it I am not touching the N95. I see so many people with dirty spitty masks that the wire isn't even flattened against their nose, or it's not even covering their nose. Lots of people in retail wear a stretchy single ply dirty bandana type of (I can't say mask) covering that is essentially useless. The parts guy at my local Canadian Tire is one of those guys. I don't go out unless I have to. I wear the 2 masks plus I always wear nitrile gloves anywhere in public, and I frequently sterilize them. When I get back to my car I use the alcohol sterilizer and then throw the gloves out. I don't eat out, I don't eat take-out, I have no social life, I have very few people I actually interact with. I really am working hard not to get covid even though I am triple vaccinated.
> 
> My question is how well is the vaccine is working vs how diligent are the vaccinated?


It's a good question. I doubt we'll ever know though. It's reasonable to assume that people who take the virus seriously take more precautions. It's also reasonable to assume that the more precautions you take, the luckier you'll be.


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> I don't think there are many public places you can go into without a mask, so that's a wash. Private get togethers may be a different story though. I don't think there is any way to keep stats on that. If a group gets together at someone's home (vaxed, unvaxed, or a mix), and no one gets sick, how could there be any kind of reporting on that to get a statistic?


Yeah. Player99 asks a cogent question, and any researcher intent on identifying the precise degree of protection provided by each of multiple factors would want to be able to provide a good answer to it. But, as you note, mask mandates are in place widely. Moreover, I imagine there are people who think that they can avoid vaccination by wearing a mask, and people who think they don't have to worry about masking up because they're vaxed. How many of each is clearly undetermined since people are going to both over-report and under-report. Additionally, one would need some clarification (and quantification) of the frequency with which they mask (not just a general yes/no) and the contexts in which they do and don't.

In sum, a good question whose answer is likely unobtainable. But there's a good reason why it is standard medical practice everywhere around the world to mask up wherever there is risk of infection. You don't want what they may be carrying in your wound or any other bodily opening and they don't want what you may be spewing.


----------



## mhammer

player99 said:


> My question is how well is the vaccine is working vs how diligent are the vaccinated?


Remember that a vaccine is ONLY a learning opportunity for one's immune system, and they don't all "learn" the same way, generate the same antibody response, etc.

But, that said, vaccine, plus a well-functioning immune system, PLUS diligence is better than either alone.


----------



## 2manyGuitars




----------



## laristotle

First-dose vaccinations quadruple in Quebec ahead of restrictions at liquor and cannabis stores


The number of appointments for the first dose of a COVID-19 vaccine has risen sharply this week in Quebec.




montreal.ctvnews.ca


----------



## davetcan

laristotle said:


> First-dose vaccinations quadruple in Quebec ahead of restrictions at liquor and cannabis stores
> 
> 
> The number of appointments for the first dose of a COVID-19 vaccine has risen sharply this week in Quebec.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montreal.ctvnews.ca


No comment.


----------



## mhammer

laristotle said:


> First-dose vaccinations quadruple in Quebec ahead of restrictions at liquor and cannabis stores
> 
> 
> The number of appointments for the first dose of a COVID-19 vaccine has risen sharply this week in Quebec.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montreal.ctvnews.ca


All the comment needed.


----------



## HighNoon

On tour again......Back by popular demand...You know him, and you love him...








Two shows nightly.... Saturday and Sunday matinee all January.....Tickets on sale NOW!!!!


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## player99

Then there is this guy... or was this guy...


----------



## colchar

laristotle said:


> First-dose vaccinations quadruple in Quebec ahead of restrictions at liquor and cannabis stores
> 
> 
> The number of appointments for the first dose of a COVID-19 vaccine has risen sharply this week in Quebec.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> montreal.ctvnews.ca



On the news the other night they said that before that restriction Quebec was vaccinating about 1500 people per day. After that restriction vaccinations jumped to over 6000 per day.


----------



## Mark Brown

Just tested positive on an at home test. We will see how this goes.


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> On the news the other night they said that before that restriction Quebec was vaccinating about 1500 people per day. After that restriction vaccinations jumped to over 6000 per day.


It's not always spot-on accurate, and there are certainly other mitigating factors, but it's remarkable how frequently the economics maxim of shaping behaviour by making unwanted behaviour more costly or difficult ends up being supported by evidence.

Of course, the trick is often finding ways to make certain behaviours more costly without also creating unintended effects. Often a matter of pricepoint. Case in point, tobacco taxes. Make them too high and you might suppress smoking but you also incentivize smuggling, which creates its own problems.

Requirements for vaccine passports, and associated mandates, CAN work to incentivize vaccination. But "can" is different than "will". Part of the problem is that there are a great many services and businesses where it is not possible (or at least very difficult and/or costly) to either physically regulate entry, or provide personnel to enforce that regulation. I'm thinking of my bank at a local shopping center, and shopping malls in general. I'm certainly not against vaccine mandates for accessing services and restriction of activity-choices as a way to incentivize vaccination among rejectionists and procrastinators. But enforcing such a requirement means having someone at the door as well as someone to provide the service. And in a time of labour shortages, that sort of "double-staffing" may not be possible for all services and businesses. I mean, it could be the case that no one guards the door and the person at the counter simply says "Unless you can show me proof of vaccination I can't serve you". But at that point, the unvaccinated person is already on your premises. How soon until someone starts advertising "I can buy your alcohol and cannabis for you...for a fee"?

So, I understand the rationale, and I'm glad it has resulted in a big uptick in vaccination. Will it be accompanied by an insistence that vaccination had to have been at least 2 weeks ago? I don't know. There's a lot of details in such a policy to be worked out. The hope is that it doesn't incentivize behaviours we'd rather not have happening.


----------



## mhammer

Brunz said:


> Just tested positive on an at home test. We will see how this goes.


Fingers crossed for minimum symptoms and severity. And hopefully, no one else in the house gets it from you.


----------



## Mark Brown

mhammer said:


> Fingers crossed for minimum symptoms and severity. And hopefully, no one else in the house gets it from you.


Thanks. Right now I am looking at it as a good opportunity to stay home and enjoy my new strat for an extra five days because I am already down, I might as well make the best of it. Yesterday was worse than today in that I had a high fever and could hardly stand up without feeling like a bag of puss. Today I can sit up and not feel like it is the hardest thing in the world. I am hopeful that by tomorrow picking up the ax will not result in breaking out in profuse sweating and I can enjoy some time with her. Selfish.. maybe, but like I said, one might as well make the best of a bad situation.


----------



## bolero

Yeah pretty sure I've got it, too

"fatigue, headache off and on, joint aches, overall feeling of flu like symptoms that seem to come and go in waves"

Feels about right! Been a couple days off & on: seems like it's gone, then comes back 8-10 hours later. Soup, vitamins, fluids, rest.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Get well soon!


----------



## colchar

I was tested on the afternoon of December 24th, and _still_ don't have test results yet.


----------



## Mark Brown

I just got my hands on a rapid test. I would never go line up to get tested. I dont wanna get of my arse unless it gets me closer to my guitars...


----------



## Midnight Rider

bolero said:


> Yeah pretty sure I've got it, too
> 
> "fatigue, headache off and on, joint aches, overall feeling of flu like symptoms that seem to come and go in waves"
> 
> Feels about right! Been a couple days off & on: seems like it's gone, then comes back 8-10 hours later. Soup, vitamins, fluids, rest.


Hoping things progress for you in the direction of recovery in the next few days. As I mentioned in a previous post the 11 infected members of my family felt a significant improvement after the 5 to 7 day mark and continuing recovery after that point. My wife just recovered from her bout last week. She and I have been taking Vit. C, Vit.D, Vit.B-complex and NAC for years as part of our health routine and have added Melatonin and Artemisinin over the last year and a half.


----------



## FatStrat2

Conspiracy theorists are saying the type of tests going off to labs are also uploaded to a DNA bank here & in China! Not me of course, I would never think that or even mention that in a guitar forum...


----------



## colchar

Brunz said:


> I just got my hands on a rapid test. I would never go line up to get tested. I dont wanna get of my arse unless it gets me closer to my guitars...



I didn't line up. I had an appointment, and was in and out within five minutes. My brother and sister-in-law had some rapid tests so I emailed him to ask if they had a spare.


----------



## Midnight Rider

There was some talk of masks posted in the the last week. The following is some research I did about 3 or so months into the pandemic. I was curious at the time why it was so difficult to find the a NIOSH 95, 99 or 100 mask. I started by looking into the 3M and Moldex brands to see what they had to offer. I was surprised as to the many different models and ratings that are manufactured for just about every work related industry. Pre-Covid these masks were always available at Home Depot, Lowes. RONA, etc., when needed for doing home renovations.

It got to the point that I called the big box stores and other health and safety businesses to see when some would become available. No-one could confirm a date. The only logical reason I thought there may be a short supply was perhaps due to the masks being allocated to hospitals and healthcare workers. Asked my sister, niece and neighbours daughter who both work hospitals if they could confirm this. Both said the 95 or 100 masks were never issued to them nor did they notice other staff wearing them.

Also called 3M and Moldex to ask when their masks may be available again for general public purchase and again the answer was they did not know.

I guess what puzzled me was why health care officials and political figures where not emphasizing the use of the 95, 99 or better yet 100 NIOSH masks at the start of the pandemic. Surely they must have known the benefits over the surgical and cloth masks the majority of us have been wearing for the last two years,... right. Well, there are are times I'm not so sure. I remember there being many discussions on radio talk shows about masks and when I would call in mentioning the 95, 99 and 100 NIOSH rated masks not one host really new what I was talking about. I even called my local MPP and she was unfamiliar with these models of masks,... no big surprise there.

So, over the last couple of weeks I hear all this chatter in the media about the N95 masks and how they should be recommended to wear,... especially the teachers. I thought,... are you F'n kidding me,... it took them almost two years to figure this out, 

I'm no genius, (ok, that's enough), but shit,... if you lay out on a table a cloth, surgical, N95,99 or N100 anyone with two brain cells to rub together should without difficulty be able to pick out of the lineup within two minutes the mask that would best protect them from airborne particles. Not at all impressed with the oversight of the ones in charge of this easy task. The duration of time to make a move on this in the proper direction is unacceptable in my mind,... mask assignment = Fail.

It just makes sense that if the ones in charge were so concerned about the spread of a virus that they would supply everyone with the proper device to help control the spread from the starting point,... gotta call them out on this one.

I may have posted this here in the past but am not too sure so here it is again,... grab a coffee, lol.

*NIOSH* - National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health. It was founded as part of the Occupational Safety and Health Act. NIOSH is more research centered and focused on health and is part of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).NIOSH is basically a watchdog for worker health and safety.

*OSH*A- Occupational Health and Safety Administration and works more with practical, on-site safety issues.

NIOSH does the behind the scenes work to figure out what is harming workers, and OSHA does the legwork to apply their findings as safety regulations.

*NIOSH Mask Classifications*

Masks and respirators. NIOSH is relevant here because they are the organization that sets the standards for each classification and performs the tests to certify different kinds of respirators and masks as they are produced.There are two different classifications for respirators, the letter and the number. Each mask can be *N*, *R*, or *P*, and each mask can be *95*, *99*, or *100*. Any combination of letter and number is valid for a particular kind of respirator.

*Masks* can range anywhere from the paper you buy for protection from dust, all the way up to low-end particulate filters and soft, cloth-based masks. The key element that makes them masks rather than respirators is that they don’t have an air-tight seal against the face.

In order for a mask to be certified by NIOSH and given a letter/number rating, it has to have an *airtight seal*. If you’re trying to filter out a dangerous chemical, particulate, or smoke and the mask isn’t air-tight that particulate can still get in around the mask. For workplace safety and hazardous chemical handling an air-tight seal is required. This certification makes it a *respirator*.

The letters relate to oil particles which are capable of penetrating filters that non-oil particulates cannot, even when those particulates are small.These include everything from certain hazardous chemicals to viruses like SARS.

*N* rated respirators are *Not resistant* to oil-based particulates. They are some of the most common respirators, because they can be used for a long time and protect adequately from particulates like coal smoke, airborne particulate from stone grinding, and so on.

*R* rated respirators are classified as *Resistant* to oil-based particulates. They are not perfect filters, but they do an adequate job for a short service life. You’ll rarely find R respirators, however, because of the inconvenience; they clog up over time and are only effective for around eight hours of use.

*P* rated respirators are classified as *oil-Proof*. They are more effective at filtering out particulates that R rated respirators do not. They last up to 40 hours of use or 30 days, whichever comes first. This makes them much more common in occupational and hazardous materials handling situations.

*95*, *99*, and *100* can be coupled with each type of letter, for nine total classifications. It’s basically just a *percentage*.

*95-rated masks* can filter out* 95%* of particulate matter. For things like rough construction dust and debris, this is generally fine. It’s good for short-term use, but longer-term use still leaves quite a bit of exposure to potentially dangerous particulate matter.

*99-rated respirators* can filter out *99%* of particulate matter. You might think this is adequate for safety, and in many cases it is, but sometimes that 1% that slips through is still dangerous enough it can be harmful, particularly over long term exposure.

*100-rated respirators* filter *99.97%* of particulate matter. Some tiny trace amounts may still slip through, but it’s not enough to be harmful without sustained exposure for long periods of time.

The *weakest* *respirator* that still receives a classification is *N95*, which filters *95%* of non-oil particulates. The *stronges*t is* P100*, which filters *99.97%* of oil and non-oil particulate.

This only applies to *certified respirators *that have been tested and approved by NIOSH.

NIOSH certified N99 respirators: Approved N99 Respirators Suppliers List | NPPTL | NIOSH | CDC

NIOSH certified P100 respirators: Approved P100 Respirators Suppliers List | NPPTL | NIOSH | CDC

NIOSH testing takes a while and involves a whole barrage of different tests on the seal, the filter, and the quality of materials so a lot of mask-makers simply don’t certify their products. Many products you purchase for casual use aren’t certified.

*Respirators* need to have a full-face seal. *Masks* that don’t have a full seal, like *surgical masks, are not capable of being certified*. They can have very high quality filtration, but because of the lack of seal, they cannot be certified and cannot be used in hazardous occupational conditions. *Surgical masks* are popular, but they *don’t protect you against airborne particles*. These are designed to prevent splashes of body fluids and blood in work environments, but since the sides of the mask are not sealed against the wearer’s face, airborne particles can still make their way through.

N99 & N95 refer to a specific rating and approval process by a division of the CDC (NIOSH), and only filter down to* 0.3* microns. To be approved, the product must also have a complete seal to the face, which is why it’s defined as a respirator and it requires fit testing, seal testing, and a whole host of other tests.


----------



## Midnight Rider

More Masks,


----------



## player99

The ones with the vents for exhaling are not good for covid.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Ok,... you gotta crack a smile at this.
COVID PITCH MEETING


----------



## player99

Midnight Rider said:


> Ok,... you gotta crack a smile at this.
> COVID PITCH MEETING


This is not a laughing matter. Covid is serious business.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Wow,... it's as though Billy boy has the capability to read into the future,... although he didn't deliver on any of what he and his friends suggested would happen if his case scenario were to come to fruition.

March 2015:
The next outbreak? We're not ready


----------



## Midnight Rider

For open minds only.
Canadian Covid Care Alliance


----------



## Midnight Rider

player99 said:


> The ones with the vents for exhaling are not good for covid.


Why?


----------



## Midnight Rider

player99 said:


> This is not a laughing matter. Covid is serious business.


Yes, I realize this,... but you have to admit,... it was well done.
I just can't be all that serious all the time during this pandemic,... time for some comic relief every now and then or you will surely go mad.


----------



## player99

Midnight Rider said:


> Yes, I realize this,... but you have to admit,... it was well done.
> I just can't be all that serious all the time during this pandemic,... time for some comic relief every now and then or you will surely go mad.


I know I was just mucken with ya! lol




Midnight Rider said:


> Why?


The science behind covid masking is 2 part. Stopping people from exhaling the virus, and with better masks, protecting people from inhaling the virus.

When people exhale there is a mist of very small particles of moisture. These particles are as light as air and float around like invisible clouds. When someone with covid exhales, the covid virus is suspended in this mist that has been expelled into the air. An uninfected person can then inhale the virus and get covid. (You can also get infected through your eyes.) The basic mask is supposed to capture the mist, thus protecting people from the virus by stopping it from becoming airborne. These masks need to be 3 ply to be effective. (Single layer cloth masks or bandanas etc. are not effective at all at stopping the mist.) The simple 3 ply mask doesn't protect the person wearing the mask, it protects everyone around the wearer. The idea is if we all wear masks then we are all protected.

The masks with the vents are usually N95 masks. N95 masks are high quality and capture very small particles measured in microns. The N95 mask will protect the person wearing the mask, as well as the people around the person wearing the mask. Unless the N95 mask has a vent that allows the wearer's exhaled lung moisture to pass through the vent unfiltered.

So the answer to the question "Why are the vented masks not good for covid?" is: The vent lets the covid suspended in the exhaled vapour to pass directly out the mask, as though the infected person isn't wearing a mask at all. That type of mask only protects the wearer. Which is not fair, and doesn't accomplish the goal of keeping the virus out of circulation.


----------



## player99




----------



## player99

https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/323208O/n95-particulate-respirators-1860-1860s-1870-faqs.pdf


----------



## Midnight Rider

player99 said:


> I know I was just mucken with ya! lol
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The science behind covid masking is 2 part. Stopping people from exhaling the virus, and with better masks, protecting people from inhaling the virus.
> 
> When people exhale there is a mist of very small particles of moisture. These particles are as light as air and float around like invisible clouds. When someone with covid exhales, the covid virus is suspended in this mist that has been expelled into the air. An uninfected person can then inhale the virus and get covid. (You can also get infected through your eyes.) The basic mask is supposed to capture the mist, thus protecting people from the virus by stopping it from becoming airborne. These masks need to be 3 ply to be effective. (When people wear single layer cloth masks or bandanas etc, they are not effective at all at stopping the mist.) The simple 3 ply mask doesn't protect the person wearing the mask, it protects everyone around the wearer. The idea is if we all wear masks then we are all protected.
> 
> The masks with the vents are usually N95 masks. N95 masks are high quality and capture very small particles measured in microns. The N95 mask will protect the person wearing the mask, as well as the people around the person wearing the mask. Unless the N95 mask has a vent that allows the wearer's exhaled lung moisture to pass through the vent unfiltered.
> 
> So the answer to the question "Why are the vented masks not good for covid?" is: The vent lets the covid suspended in the exhaled vapour to pass directly out the mask, as though the infected person isn't wearing a mask at all. That type of mask only protects the wearer. Which is not fair, and doesn't accomplish the goal of keeping the virus out of circulation.


Yes, I agree with some of what you have provided. However, the information I provided clearly shows that there are N95, N99 and N100 masks without the valve that are N, P and R rated. Being NIOSH certified ensures you are getting the best protection.

The 3 ply cloth masks are not NIOSH certified or recognized as being the best protection against viral intake. Furthermore the surgical masks emit more potential mist and viral content than a properly fit 95, 99 or 100 N,P or R rated NIOSH tested and certified mask with a face seal. I would definitely feel much more at ease with someone standing 6 feet away wearing one of the aforementioned NIOSH certified models with a valve and filter than someone at the same distance wearing one of those surgical style masks that have the open areas at the sides and top of the cheeks,... I see it all the time. They are not designed to stop the spread of bad breath let alone a viral mist intake. If when wearing a 3 ply cloth mask it must be tested by NIOSH to ensure it lives up to its claims. If viral content can penetrate through that face covering than it can surely escape in the opposite direction.

In the provided chart in my previous post it shows a virus size to be between 0.01 and .03 microns in size. Unless a mask has been shown to protect from particles that size then it simply does not exist. Do the masks you wear show NIOSH certification that it functions at that level?

On the CDC site there is a page that shows some masks that were tested and failed the ability to do this.
Non-NIOSH approved Innovative Filtering Facepiece Respirator Assessment Results | NPPTL | NIOSH | CDC (See PDF)

It's the 'Moneyball Theory' all over again: "If the masks they are providing us with work so good,... then why are the masks they are providing us with not working so good?"


----------



## Midnight Rider

player99 said:


>


Yes, I have seen this video before,... makes perfect sense.


----------



## player99

Midnight Rider said:


> Yes, I agree with some of what you have provided.


What did I write you don't agree with?


----------



## bolero

Yeah the mask issue was pretty obvious even at the outset, although initially there was uncertainty about their effectiveness. Would be fun to read thru the 1st original COVID thread we had going here, but it's long deleted.

Thx for the well wishes, and I hope anyone else who ( inevitably? ) catches this recovers 100%!! I feel fine now, but maybe another wave will show in a few hours.

Hopefully omicron just fades away & doesn't mutate into something more severe.


----------



## SWLABR

Got my third shot Friday. As with the first two, the process went smooth, and was well managed. My arm hurt a little almost as soon as I got home. Saturday I woke up a little groggy, but not bad. By 3:30 (the 24hr mark) I was done in. Tired, achy, irritable. I was feeling better by the time I went to bed, and Sunday I woke up as normal. Even this morning, no ill affects. Arm isn't even sore, unlike last time. I think she hit a nerve. That one ached for close to a week. I think this was the least troublesome one I had.


----------



## tdotrob

Midnight rider posting all that same bs like it’s 2020 still. The mask stuff, the bill gates stuff ugggh it’s like a broken record clinging to all the same stupid talking points that anyone with half a clue has already discussed the logical and reasonable answers to his far fetched conspiracy questionnaire. You’ve gone back in time dude, get some new material at least.


----------



## allthumbs56

bolero said:


> Yeah the mask issue was pretty obvious even at the outset, although initially there was uncertainty about their effectiveness. Would be fun to read thru the 1st original COVID thread we had going here, but it's long deleted.
> 
> Thx for the well wishes, and I hope anyone else who ( inevitably? ) catches this recovers 100%!! I feel fine now, but maybe another wave will show in a few hours.
> 
> Hopefully omicron just fades away & doesn't mutate into something more severe.


I still don't think we know anything for sure about if any kind of masking has actually produced any real benefit. We know that they've gotta do something - retain spittle at least - and they keep us conscious of our environment - but I don't think there will ever be a "Masking has reduced transmission by 30%" type headline. Same for all the hand sanitizing and surface cleaning.

I stick with it because it's at least something I can do - even though it might be about as useful as peeing on a house fire.


----------



## Choo5440

allthumbs56 said:


> I still don't think we know anything for sure about if any kind of masking has actually produced any real benefit. We know that they've gotta do something - retain spittle at least - and they keep us conscious of our environment - but I don't think there will ever be a "Masking has reduced transmission by 30%" type headline. Same for all the hand sanitizing and surface cleaning.
> 
> I stick with it because it's at least something I can do - even though it might be about as useful as peeing on a house fire.


I've worked directly with covid+ clients regularly since spring 2020. Religiously been masking (both N95s and level 3 surgical masks), wearing face shields, gloves and other PPE, and have yet to catch covid myself. 

Also, regarding the face mask quality question - there was absolutely a shortage of N95's early on, resulting in many having to be re-used by healthcare workers. This trickle down is what led to the rise of clothe face masks for the general public. Only recently has Canada begun domestic production of N95s, and greater availability.


----------



## Mark Brown

There really should be no debate over the efficacy of proper masking any longer. I wear an N95 for work when dealing with particulate, I do not question if it works or not. I know it works because when the day is over, my lungs still work. When fiberglassing, combo OVN95 most definitely work. I wear them for hours and hours and hours. No problem.

I am of the understanding I contracted the covid in a workplace setting where there are upwards of 50 men sharing a building space where masking and distancing practices are nil, which is to say they are not adhered to at all, by myself or others. This definitely makes me remiss in my duty as a citizen and I will admit to that fault however it is easy to become complacent when after 2 years you have not seen, personally, a level of infection in your direct environment.


----------



## ZeroGravity

Choo5440 said:


> I've worked directly with covid+ clients regularly since spring 2020. Religiously been masking (both N95s and level 3 surgical masks), wearing face shields, gloves and other PPE, and have yet to catch covid myself.
> 
> Also, regarding the face mask quality question - there was absolutely a shortage of N95's early on, resulting in many having to be re-used by healthcare workers. This trickle down is what led to the rise of clothe face masks for the general public. Only recently has Canada begun domestic production of N95s, and greater availability.


There is also now a FDA approved procedure using vapourized hydrogen peroxide that can allow K/N95 mask to be sterilized and reused up to 25x without degradation.


----------



## Milkman

I'm now of the opinion that humans cannot or will not stay away from each other and that this variant is simply steam rolling through us.

I guesss I have to hope being double vaccinated and boosted helps prevent the most serious effects as we're told. 

Are the rapid antigen tests as inaccurate as I have read (as high as 60% false negatives)?

I believe my household was infected on X-mas day. I was sick for about a week but seem to be recovering now. My wife is still quite ill. My daughter has also recovered.

I don't know what else we can do.

It feels like we're losing this battle.


----------



## Milkman

As for masks, I accept the evolving consensus that N95 or KN95 is much more effective than cloth and purchased a box of good quality N95 masks accordingly.

I can certainly feel the difference. They're relatively comfortable and easy to breath through, but seal much better than cloth masks.


----------



## mhammer

Do I have your permission to say it yet one more time?

*Much of the misery in the world begins with: "But I was just gonna..."*

People have a tendency to evaluate the risk of their actions in a biased way, mistaking the pleasure they anticipate deriving from their actions (or simply reduction in annoyance) with the true risk.


----------



## Mark Brown

Milkman said:


> I'm now of the opinion that humans cannot or will not stay away from each other and that this variant is simply steam rolling through us.
> 
> I guesss I have to hope being double vaccinated and boosted helps prevent the most serious effects as we're told.
> 
> Are the rapid antigen tests as inaccurate as I have read (as high as 60% false negatives)?
> 
> I believe my household was infected on X-mas day. I was sick for about a week but seem to be recovering now. My wife is still quite ill. My daughter has also recovered.
> 
> I don't know what else we can do.
> 
> It feels like we're losing this battle.


As with most pathogens in the past, we will lose. There really is no winning. This is the nature of the beast. Delaying infection rates was all we could ever hope for in the beginning and as treatments and vaccines became available then we were/are able to reduce the virulence. There may have been a very small window at the very beginning when the hope of a Covid 0 reality was something to look forward to but that time has passed. The newest variant is, so far, showing signs of extreme transmissibility and a slightly lower morbidity and virulence. This is typically what will happen with most things. When one puts the emotion aside and realizes that the ultimate goal of any virus is simply to replicate and propagate then the current variant has just about mastered its craft. Covid is something we are going to be living with for the rest of time and will eventually become much like the annual flu, once the population has been sufficiently exposed to its root material and has developed immunity or been inoculated against it.


----------



## laristotle

tdotrob said:


> get some new material at least.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

"There a highly transmissible respiratory virus making the rounds. It has the potential to kill, make you seriously ill, or have lasting health effects. Would you like a vaccine?"

_Nah, I'm good._

"Okay. It's now spreading pretty rapidly. This could protect you and your family."

_No thanks. I'll "wait for more research"._

"Well it's now been a year and over 4 billion people have now safely had the vaccine. Thousands of people in your community are now getting infected. This will help the community at large and your fellow citizens."

_No. I can't for religious/medical reasons._

"Really? Well now the medical system is overrun and in danger of collapsing. We respect your right to not get the vaccine but there will be some adjustments you'll need to make. You know, like only getting take-out or having to wear a mask when you shop."

_WTF?!? This is tyranny! If we let the government do this, there's no telling where it will end!!!_

"You're going to need to be vaccinated to buy weed and booze."

_*SIGN ME UP MOTHERFUCKERS!!!!!*_

The human race is doomed. And I'm not referring to COVID.


----------



## Mark Brown

2manyGuitars said:


> _WTF?!? This is tyranny! If we let the government do this, there's no telling where it will end!!!_
> 
> "You're going to need to be vaccinated to buy weed and booze."
> 
> _*SIGN ME UP MOTHERFUCKERS!!!!!*_


This just made my day. Thank you. 
The human race is a funny collection is it not?


----------



## allthumbs56

I would expect that anybody who has effectively circumvented getting the jab will be smart enough to find their weed on a street corner or have their booze delivered.

Or maybe not?


----------



## 2manyGuitars

allthumbs56 said:


> I would expect that anybody who has effectively circumvented getting the jab will be smart enough to find their weed on a street corner or have their booze delivered.
> 
> Or maybe not?


The fact that in Quebec, appointments for 1st doses quadrupled within hours of the pot/booze announcement makes me think that that's way too much thought and effort for a lot of pot-heads.


----------



## colchar

bolero said:


> Hopefully omicron just fades away & doesn't mutate into something more severe.



No idea of the severity, but it seems that the mutation ship has sailed:









‘Deltacron’ is a new strain of COVID-19 and not a lab error, Cypriot scientist says


Leonidos Kostrikis says the recombinant form of Delta and Omicron arose from 'evolutionary pressure'




nationalpost.com


----------



## colchar

Choo5440 said:


> I've worked directly with covid+ clients regularly since spring 2020. Religiously been masking (both N95s and level 3 surgical masks), wearing face shields, gloves and other PPE, and have yet to catch covid myself.
> 
> Also, regarding the face mask quality question - there was absolutely a shortage of N95's early on, resulting in many having to be re-used by healthcare workers. This trickle down is what led to the rise of clothe face masks for the general public. Only recently has Canada begun domestic production of N95s, and greater availability.


Yeah that shortage was in part caused by us shipping 16 tonnes of PPE to China. At least one idiot here thought that was a good idea and argued that they would return the favour when we needed it, completely ignoring the fact that we needed it then. He was rather quiet when they did return the favour and it was discovered that much of what they had sent was useless and had to be disposed of.


----------



## Milkman

2manyGuitars said:


> The fact that in Quebec, appointments for 1st doses quadrupled within hours of the pot/booze announcement makes me think that that's way too much thought and effort for a lot of pot-heads.



How do you know it's not the piss tanks?


----------



## allthumbs56

Milkman said:


> How do you know it's not the piss tanks?


Save your lungs by sacrificing your liver 👍


----------



## Eric Reesor

Brunz said:


> Just tested positive on an at home test. We will see how this goes.


Lucky you don`t live in BC. Home testing is outlawed here. We have to sneak mail order them illegally. We can get them at work in a few places but the drug stores that sell them are limited to state approved only status. The other option is to make an appointment and sit in your car at the provincial line ups, which can be like getting caught in a Don Valley parkway rush hour line up.


----------



## Mark Brown

Eric Reesor said:


> Lucky you don`t live in BC. Home testing is outlawed here. We have to sneak mail order them illegally. We can get them at work in a few places but the drug stores that sell them are limited to state approved only status. The other option is to make an appointment and sit in your car at the provincial line ups, which can be like getting caught in a Don Valley parkway rush hour line up.


I do live in BC and I did have to sneaky sneaky a test off my father in law 
I would not have gotten tested otherwise and would have just made the assumption. The outcomes would have been the same I suppose, but I am happier knowing so I do not have to wonder why I feel like a turd.


----------



## Paul Running

allthumbs56 said:


> I would expect that anybody who has effectively circumvented getting the jab will be smart enough to find their weed on a street corner or have their booze delivered.
> 
> Or maybe not?


That will be a side-business for some folks, purchasing weed and grog for the non-vaccinated.


----------



## player99

Milkman said:


> As for masks, I accept the evolving consensus that N95 or KN95 is much more effective than cloth and purchased a box of good quality N95 masks accordingly.
> 
> I can certainly feel the difference. They're relatively comfortable and easy to breath through, but seal much better than cloth masks.
> 
> View attachment 396861


The valve makes these masks non compliant.


----------



## player99

Someone on the CBC Radio phone in said the rapid test is only 50% likely to show positive when the testee has omicron.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Milkman said:


> As for masks, I accept the evolving consensus that N95 or KN95 is much more effective than cloth and purchased a box of good quality N95 masks accordingly.
> 
> I can certainly feel the difference. They're relatively comfortable and easy to breath through, but seal much better than cloth masks.
> 
> View attachment 396861


Where did you purchase you box of masks?


----------



## Guitar101

Midnight Rider said:


> Where did you purchase you box of masks?


I purchased 2 boxes of 20 back in 2018 for around $15 per box. I donated one box to the Cobourg hospital when this all began and kept one box. I have about 12 left. The yellow elastic bands are their weak point but I figured a way to put new elastic bands on them so I can use use them for a longer period. I use them for dust at and around the barn. Here's where I bought them.




__





3M® 8210-N95 Particulate Respirator | Seton Canada


3M™ 8210 Series N95 Particulate Respirator 70070614394 backed by Seton's satisfaction guarantee. Particulate masks efficiently protect against solid and liquid particles. Order yours today.




www.seton.ca


----------



## Mikev7305

player99 said:


> on the CBC Radio phone in said the rapid test is only 50% likely to show positive when the testee has omicron.


Also, apparently it doesn't really work with asymptomatic covid. The shoppers drug Mart waiver thing you sign when getting a rapid test from there states that they will only test you if you're asymptomatic, then way down the waiver thing, it says that it doesn't work for asymptomatic detection. 🤔


----------



## mhammer

player99 said:


> Someone on the CBC Radio phone in said the rapid test is only 50% likely to show positive when the testee has omicron.


Right. It has a high false negative rate. Notthe preponderance of cases, but enough to exercise caution. But when it shows _positive_, it is quite certain you're infected. The flaw is that a person can be more infected than they think they are.

You may remember the heartbreak of the Ottawa company, Spartan Bioscience, that sunk a lot of money into quickly developing a portable "test-cube" that could provide rapid test results. Health Canada ended up rejecting it because the proprietary swabs the cube used for the automated testing (that you'd take from the nose and insert into the machine) didn't go back far enough in the nose to get what was considered a good/adequate tissue sample. The result was that the risk - and I emphasize risk, not known proportion - of false negatives was considered too high for the device to get approved.


----------



## mhammer

Mikev7305 said:


> Also, apparently it doesn't really work with asymptomatic covid. The shoppers drug Mart waiver thing you sign when getting a rapid test from there states that they will only test you if you're asymptomatic, then way down the waiver thing, it says that it doesn't work for asymptomatic detection. 🤔


While I suppose there CAN be instances where a person is carrying a high viral load but isn't symptomatic, it is more likely that a person who is on the way to being symptomatic in a few days gets a negative rapid test result and figures they're clear. YES it can be the case that such tests provide a false negative. But I suspect it is more likely that people misinterpret the test result and infer more than can rightly be inferred. I'm sure SDM doesn't want to get dinged because their customers are looking to get "permission" for something any way they can.


----------



## mhammer

This thread can get a little serious at times, so a little levity. I heard this on CBC this afternoon. God bless Maria Muldaur.


----------



## laristotle




----------



## Midnight Rider

tdotrob said:


> Midnight rider posting all that same bs like it’s 2020 still. The mask stuff, the bill gates stuff ugggh it’s like a broken record clinging to all the same stupid talking points that anyone with half a clue has already discussed the logical and reasonable answers to his far fetched conspiracy questionnaire. You’ve gone back in time dude, get some new material at least.


Ok 'Grand Poobah of Covid Virus Lodge',... please provide us with the timetable for allowed topics of conversation,... wouldn't want to to get ostracized from the club for not following strict armistice policy, lol.
You are well versed, as others are here, in spinning and twisting or just not having the aptitude for interpreting certain posts. Keep trying,...I'm sure you'll get it eventually,💡!


----------



## bolero

Re: Deltacron, How does a virus get displaced by another strain? Is the assumption you are immune to 1 strain, after catching a different strain?

“We will see in the future if this strain is more pathological or more contagious or if it will prevail” over Delta and Omicron, Kostrikis said, but his personal view was that Deltacron would be displaced by the highly contagious Omicron variant."

And in the same article they mention co-infections. I don't get it?


----------



## FatStrat2

I've looked over the stats of the last few epidemics/pandemics (SARS, Bird Flu, etc., all Chinese based). They take 3 years to pass and come in 3 to 4 waves. Given this thing is (or was until O) just a supercharged RNA flu virus type, it's pretty much over in Spring considering it's the 3rd year and this is the 3rd wave.

Thank the stars for Omicron.


----------



## player99

Omicron I am so grateful you are here.


----------



## Midnight Rider

player99 said:


> Omicron I am so grateful you are here.


I suppose it could be viewed at as a more welcomed variant than a Delta 2.0.


----------



## player99

Midnight Rider said:


> I suppose it could be viewed at as a more welcomed variant than a Delta 2.0.


Now I heard there is a new one, which is part delta and part omacron. They are calling it deltacron.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

player99 said:


> Now I heard there is a new one, which is part delta and part omacron. They are calling it deltacron.


I read the same thing somewhere. My internet is wonky so I am relying on memory. Apparently you can also be infected by 2 different strains at the same time.


----------



## Choo5440

bolero said:


> Re: Deltacron, How does a virus get displaced by another strain? Is the assumption you are immune to 1 strain, after catching a different strain?
> 
> “We will see in the future if this strain is more pathological or more contagious or if it will prevail” over Delta and Omicron, Kostrikis said, but his personal view was that Deltacron would be displaced by the highly contagious Omicron variant."
> 
> And in the same article they mention co-infections. I don't get it?


want to start off that I'm going to run through this quickly, so lots of generalizations/glossing over details here.

It's highly unlikely that a person becomes infected with multiple variants at the same time (though it's very possible once a person has cleared the virus). As the variants likely have differing transmission rates (r factor), one of them (omicron) spreads faster than the other (delta).

As one spreads more, it then provides temporary protection from the other. Eventually one variant becomes dominant in a population, "choking out" the other. 

And again for co-infections - as i mentioned, they are rare, but absolutely possible. They are also potentially very dangerous as the virus can recombine and gain new traits quickly, as opposed to random additions/deletions.


----------



## bolero

Choo5440 said:


> want to start off that I'm going to run through this quickly, so lots of generalizations/glossing over details here.
> 
> It's highly unlikely that a person becomes infected with multiple variants at the same time (though it's very possible once a person has cleared the virus). As the variants likely have differing transmission rates (r factor), one of them (omicron) spreads faster than the other (delta).
> 
> As one spreads more, it then provides temporary protection from the other. Eventually one variant becomes dominant in a population, "choking out" the other.
> 
> And again for co-infections - as i mentioned, they are rare, but absolutely possible. They are also potentially very dangerous as the virus can recombine and gain new traits quickly, as opposed to random additions/deletions.


Thanks for the explanation!!


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> I read the same thing somewhere. My internet is wonky so I am relying on memory.



I posted about it here in this thread.


----------



## allthumbs56

46% of current Ontario COVID hospitalizations are incidental: new data (msn.com) 

It's an interesting "thing" - but does it matter in the long run?


----------



## keto

allthumbs56 said:


> 46% of current Ontario COVID hospitalizations are incidental: new data (msn.com)
> 
> It's an interesting "thing" - but does it matter in the long run?


Not really, just another data point, we've known it was something like this for a while, with omicron.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

colchar said:


> I posted about it here in this thread.


Thanks. I have been having internet issues (Shaw) and not been keeping up with the thread as much. I did read a news story on it somewhere.


----------



## FatStrat2

I understand that Guitars Canada is the premier platform and reference forum for medical professionals worldwide - and for tonewood.


----------



## allthumbs56

FatStrat2 said:


> I understand that Guitars Canada is the premier platform and reference forum for medical professionals worldwide - and for tonewood.


You have come to the right place! How may we improve you? 👍


----------



## Choo5440

FatStrat2 said:


> I understand that Guitars Canada is the premier platform and reference forum for medical professionals worldwide - and for tonewood.


I mean, I'M here...😂


----------



## Mikev7305

I got the Rona! And I'm already over it! Nice to be done with it that's for sure. I felt like crap Sunday night, woke up Monday with a tired achy body, by the evening I was 80%. This morning I'm 100% and quarantining for the week, time to get some home projects done! 

My rapid test very early Monday morning said negative, then my other one that I took this morning before going to work said positive. Figured if I'm working in somebody else's home I should make sure I'm all clear with an extra test. 

Hopefully everyone else dealing with this stupid fuckin virus gets through it easily and relatively pain free. I went Ape shit on the vitamins and supplements, that probably did wonders for me. Keep well everyone!


----------



## colchar

I finally received my test results today for the test that I did on December 24th, and they were negative.

So either I've caught Covid since then or I have a sinus infection, I'll speak to my doctor tomorrow.

Meanwhile, my younger brother who tested positive just after Christmas is being checked for pneumonia as he is having difficulty breathing. He is a marathon runner to the level that he was sponsored by Adidas and now by Nike, so he has good lungs. If his breathing has been affected this much, Covid must be a real bugger. He was double vaccinated, but had yet to get his booster when he caught it.


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> I finally received my test results today for the test that I did on December 24th, and they were negative.
> 
> So either I've caught Covid since then or I have a sinus infection, I'll speak to my doctor tomorrow.
> 
> Meanwhile, my younger brother who tested positive just after Christmas is being checked for pneumonia as he is having difficulty breathing. He is a marathon runner to the level that he was sponsored by Adidas and now by Nike, so he has good lungs. If his breathing has been affected this much, Covid must be a real bugger. He was double vaccinated, but had yet to get his booster when he caught it.


18 days ago. Used to be we'd call that the "Test of Time". No lab work required 😕

I guess the results at least let you know if you did have it back then or not.


----------



## Mark Brown

Alright, now things are just getting crazy. 
Since Covid started I have been shuffling off on the sidelines bumbling away doing my thing and trying the whole live and let live thing, carry on. For a bit of context, I do not think it is a hoax, global conspiracy, great reset or any other gambit of thing. I do think it is a novel disease that we were/are largely unfamiliar with. I wear a mask when I am out in the general public, keep rather distant from folks when possible and do my best to adhere to the best practices of the health authority in my jurisdiction.

When vaccines were made available, I decided not to get one believing my relative chances of survival were fairly high. So far to date, this has not been untrue. The risk/reward matrix in my brain just said nope. When limitations on where unvaccinated people could be were brought into play, while I disagreed with the notion, I could understand that the logic was there based on the evidence even if I could not obtain said granular data it more than likely existed. Inconvenience, sure but in the name of the collective why not. After all, the whole thing has been about limiting exposure as best as we can when and where we can. Still makes sense to me. Inconveniencing me is not after all a national crisis.

Then today, bloody Legault up and announces that Quebec plans to impose a health "surtax" on the unvaccinated. You know, to increase vaccination rates. So, I am ok with a little persuasive tap on the shoulder to say "hey folks, would you mind" but this has become down right criminal. Lets tax fat people for clogging hospitals (imma pay that tax too I suppose), or those who haven't run 6 feet in the last 6 years... bought a bottle of coke this week, TAXED. What in the serious @#%$ is wrong with people that this is where we are going. Last week it was Jean-Yves Duclos spouting that he thinks that the provinces will be introducing mandatory vaccinations. 

I write all of this being infected as we speak with Covid. I am not in the hospital, not a burden to the health care system, still diligently paying my taxes and somehow you are prepared to tell me that I am causing the downfall of the Canadian health care system?? The best part even is that to my knowledge no Canadian jurisdiction recognizes natural immunity in their allowance of people having a level of immunity to covid.

I won't even argue that the vaccinations are effective at reducing serious outcomes in Covid cases, that data is readily available and hard to refute but for the love of all that is holy, when and how did it come to this?? What do you do next, just up and shoot people dead on the street for being unvaccinated? .... that last one might be a bit of exaggeration on my part.

Sorry to be so ranty but this has finally caused me to be a little angered and now for better or worse, I am done.


----------



## Wardo

Brunz said:


> … when and how did it come to this??


When - It has been coming for years.

How - Naive and docile population.


----------



## Guitar101

Brunz said:


> Alright, now things are just getting crazy.
> Since Covid started I have been shuffling off on the sidelines bumbling away doing my thing and trying the whole live and let live thing, carry on. For a bit of context, I do not think it is a hoax, global conspiracy, great reset or any other gambit of thing. I do think it is a novel disease that we were/are largely unfamiliar with. I wear a mask when I am out in the general public, keep rather distant from folks when possible and do my best to adhere to the best practices of the health authority in my jurisdiction.
> 
> When vaccines were made available, I decided not to get one believing my relative chances of survival were fairly high. So far to date, this has not been untrue. The risk/reward matrix in my brain just said nope. When limitations on where unvaccinated people could be were brought into play, while I disagreed with the notion, I could understand that the logic was there based on the evidence even if I could not obtain said granular data it more than likely existed. Inconvenience, sure but in the name of the collective why not. After all, the whole thing has been about limiting exposure as best as we can when and where we can. Still makes sense to me. Inconveniencing me is not after all a national crisis.
> 
> Then today, bloody Legault up and announces that Quebec plans to impose a health "surtax" on the unvaccinated. You know, to increase vaccination rates. So, I am ok with a little persuasive tap on the shoulder to say "hey folks, would you mind" but this has become down right criminal. Lets tax fat people for clogging hospitals (imma pay that tax too I suppose), or those who haven't run 6 feet in the last 6 years... bought a bottle of coke this week, TAXED. What in the serious @#%$ is wrong with people that this is where we are going. Last week it was Jean-Yves Duclos spouting that he thinks that the provinces will be introducing mandatory vaccinations.
> 
> I write all of this being infected as we speak with Covid. I am not in the hospital, not a burden to the health care system, still diligently paying my taxes and somehow you are prepared to tell me that I am causing the downfall of the Canadian health care system?? The best part even is that to my knowledge no Canadian jurisdiction recognizes natural immunity in their allowance of people having a level of immunity to covid.
> 
> I won't even argue that the vaccinations are effective at reducing serious outcomes in Covid cases, that data is readily available and hard to refute but for the love of all that is holy, when and how did it come to this?? What do you do next, just up and shoot people dead on the street for being unvaccinated? .... that last one might be a bit of exaggeration on my part.
> 
> Sorry to be so ranty but this has finally caused me to be a little angered and now for better or worse, I am done.


That is crazy. I think they should just make any unvaccinated people have to pay for their own healthcare if they need any. You would be fine because your not a burden to taxpayers. That is as long as you don't infect any other people that may need healthcare.


----------



## player99

Brunz said:


> I write all of this being infected as we speak with Covid. I am not in the hospital, not a burden to the health care system, still diligently paying my taxes and somehow you are prepared to tell me that I am causing the downfall of the Canadian health care system?? The best part even is that to my knowledge no Canadian jurisdiction recognizes natural immunity in their allowance of people having a level of immunity to covid.


This guy didn't need a vaccine. He was very tough.


----------



## allthumbs56

Brunz said:


> Alright, now things are just getting crazy.
> Since Covid started I have been shuffling off on the sidelines bumbling away doing my thing and trying the whole live and let live thing, carry on. For a bit of context, I do not think it is a hoax, global conspiracy, great reset or any other gambit of thing. I do think it is a novel disease that we were/are largely unfamiliar with. I wear a mask when I am out in the general public, keep rather distant from folks when possible and do my best to adhere to the best practices of the health authority in my jurisdiction.
> 
> When vaccines were made available, I decided not to get one believing my relative chances of survival were fairly high. So far to date, this has not been untrue. The risk/reward matrix in my brain just said nope. When limitations on where unvaccinated people could be were brought into play, while I disagreed with the notion, I could understand that the logic was there based on the evidence even if I could not obtain said granular data it more than likely existed. Inconvenience, sure but in the name of the collective why not. After all, the whole thing has been about limiting exposure as best as we can when and where we can. Still makes sense to me. Inconveniencing me is not after all a national crisis.
> 
> Then today, bloody Legault up and announces that Quebec plans to impose a health "surtax" on the unvaccinated. You know, to increase vaccination rates. So, I am ok with a little persuasive tap on the shoulder to say "hey folks, would you mind" but this has become down right criminal. Lets tax fat people for clogging hospitals (imma pay that tax too I suppose), or those who haven't run 6 feet in the last 6 years... bought a bottle of coke this week, TAXED. What in the serious @#%$ is wrong with people that this is where we are going. Last week it was Jean-Yves Duclos spouting that he thinks that the provinces will be introducing mandatory vaccinations.
> 
> I write all of this being infected as we speak with Covid. I am not in the hospital, not a burden to the health care system, still diligently paying my taxes and somehow you are prepared to tell me that I am causing the downfall of the Canadian health care system?? The best part even is that to my knowledge no Canadian jurisdiction recognizes natural immunity in their allowance of people having a level of immunity to covid.
> 
> I won't even argue that the vaccinations are effective at reducing serious outcomes in Covid cases, that data is readily available and hard to refute but for the love of all that is holy, when and how did it come to this?? What do you do next, just up and shoot people dead on the street for being unvaccinated? .... that last one might be a bit of exaggeration on my part.
> 
> Sorry to be so ranty but this has finally caused me to be a little angered and now for better or worse, I am done.


My best guess is that what they're trying to say is that they really, really, really want for you to go and get yourself vaccinated.


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## Mikev7305

People who choose to smoke should pay too. And people who choose to eat McDonald's every other day. Maybe we should gang together and create a system where people can't go into concerts unless they can prove they ate a salad in the last week? The unvaxxed seem to generally have a better grasp on how to help themselves stay healthy in other ways. Vax seems like the easy way out, I prefer the healthy lifestyle route.


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## Mark Brown

Guitar101 said:


> That is crazy. I think they should just make any unvaccinated people have to pay for their own health care if they need any. You would be fine because your not a burden to taxpayers.


Where do you draw that line? I mean, the obvious argument is against obesity, that is a choice. What about those of us who are disabled? Not a choice but still an undue burden on the medical system. How about chronic exposure conditions like chemical exposure from oh I don't know guitar sanding and finishing. Why is it this one thing that somehow has become the crux on which all morality falls? Why do we not mandate other vaccinations against penalty? Measles, Mumps, the Flu, all of those things are an undue burden. How about AIDS, it is a communicable disease that is largely obtained through malfeasance, I suppose we should stop offering any duty of care for AIDS patients? See how this goes? Why this one instance? People have lost their sanity.



player99 said:


> This guy didn't need a vaccine. He was very tough.


People die from all manner of things, I would not think it was appropriate to be punitive to them for their choices.

There is no getting rid of Covid any longer, that ship has sailed and with the new variant it has proven that there is even little if anything that can be done to not be exposed let alone infected. Why carry on the charade that we can "vaccinate our way out". Especially when vaccination rates are hovering around the high 80% in most jurisdictions in Canada.

Hell, if we are being all kinds of honest, I even think that vaccination is a great thing. I find it amazing that we were able to come up with it so swiftly, the efficacy was by and large rather impressive and they have done to date an astounding job from the data I can see but I will be damned if I do not censure anything that makes it a punishment of choice.


----------



## player99

Brunz said:


> People die from all manner of things, I would not think it was appropriate to be punitive to them for their choices.


The problem is their choice is directly affecting the health and deaths of others. Thanks to the unvaccinated, cancer surgeries, organ transplants and all other medical interventions are on hold because the unvaccinated with covid have completely tied up the medical resources. When someone who had stage 2 cancer is told to wait for surgery because the unvaccinated have directly caused the medical system to shut down for everyone but the covid unvaccinated, has now been told their stage 2 cancer is now stage 4 cancer and it is now inoperable and terminal, is that fair?


----------



## allthumbs56

Brunz said:


> Where do you draw that line? I mean, the obvious argument is against obesity, that is a choice. What about those of us who are disabled? Not a choice but still an undue burden on the medical system. How about chronic exposure conditions like chemical exposure from oh I don't know guitar sanding and finishing. Why is it this one thing that somehow has become the crux on which all morality falls? Why do we not mandate other vaccinations against penalty? Measles, Mumps, the Flu, all of those things are an undue burden. How about AIDS, it is a communicable disease that is largely obtained through malfeasance, I suppose we should stop offering any duty of care for AIDS patients? See how this goes? Why this one instance? People have lost their sanity.
> 
> 
> People die from all manner of things, I would not think it was appropriate to be punitive to them for their choices.
> 
> There is no getting rid of Covid any longer, that ship has sailed and with the new variant it has proven that there is even little if anything that can be done to not be exposed let alone infected. Why carry on the charade that we can "vaccinate our way out". Especially when vaccination rates are hovering around the high 80% in most jurisdictions in Canada.
> 
> Hell, if we are being all kinds of honest, I even think that vaccination is a great thing. I find it amazing that we were able to come up with it so swiftly, the efficacy was by and large rather impressive and they have done to date an astounding job from the data I can see but I will be damned if I do not censure anything that makes it a punishment of choice.


You are on a forum where probably 95% or better of the members are vaccinated. What kind of support are you looking for?


----------



## Mark Brown

allthumbs56 said:


> You are on a forum where probably 95% or better of the members are vaccinated. What kind of support are you looking for?


I am not looking for support and if you look a little deeper, I would strongly argue for most of the measures that have been taken to date in regards to the pandemic. They just plain make sense. I was just trying to express a point of view that I had in a sub-section of the forum dedicated to just that. The idea was not to antagonize anyone, or garner support so much as to just express how I feel in regards to a specific incident in regards to said topic. One does not have to agree with my point of view and is welcome to debate it if they choose, I am open to debate if not relish it. It is how we come to a better understanding with one another. If it weren't we would all own Strats and every other guitar would be obsolete.


----------



## player99

Brunz said:


> I am not looking for support and if you look a little deeper, I would strongly argue for most of the measures that have been taken to date in regards to the pandemic. They just plain make sense. I was just trying to express a point of view that I had in a sub-section of the forum dedicated to just that. The idea was not to antagonize anyone, or garner support so much as to just express how I feel in regards to a specific incident in regards to said topic. One does not have to agree with my point of view and is welcome to debate it if they choose, I am open to debate if not relish it. It is how we come to a better understanding with one another. If it weren't we would all own Strats and every other guitar would be obsolete.


Barron guitars are for the unvaccinated.


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## Mark Brown

player99 said:


> Barron guitars are for the unvaccinated.


Hmmmm.... after considering your proposal, I have decided to get vaccinated.


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## mhammer

As I posted earlier, one of the most tried and true maxims in economics is that if you make a choice costly, people will be less likely to make that choice. And much of law and public policy is predicated on that. Commit a crime, or transgress against a by-law, and expect to see jail-time or pay a fine.

Some disincentives for bad choices are more in the realm of "nudges" to encourage better choices, than slaps on the wrist to punish poorer ones. So, taxes are added to the sale of tobacco and alcohol products to offset the community/society costs of substance abuse and excess. As I also posted earlier, one risks encouraging unwanted outcomes if the disincentives are too severe.

This afternoon, Quebec announced that an as-yet-unspecified-but-described-as-substantial user fee would be levied to unvaccinated individuals who end up in hospital with Covid. At a superficial level, it makes sense, and seems ethically sound...superficially. If you insist on inviting risk that results in significant cost to "the system", that merits strong disincentives. Think of folks who insist on "daredevil" treks in the wild, that end up costing tens of thousands - if not more - in rescue costs, when they get stranded or lost. Admittedly, that's an extreme case.

Several things come to mind, though. One, would such a fee be severe enough to shape behaviour, but also result in unwanted behaviours and ways to cheat the system? For instance, we see that some folks are going to emergency for one health problem, but are found out to be Covid-positive as well. Would we see people coming in for an injury - perhaps self-inflicted - in order to avoid such a fee? A second issue is whether such fees contravene the Canada Health Act, and whether the Notwithstanding Clause of the Charter can supercede the CHA (my guess is no, since one of the underlying principles of the CHA is "universality"). Of course, a fee does not contravene "universality", and plenty of procedures and services entail user fees. But as announced on the 5:00 news, Quebec is currently examining the practical and legal implications of the proposed fee. Would they step back from the fee, given that they have announced it? My guess is no. Not that they may not currently be wishing Legault _hadn't_ made that fist-shaking announcement, but now that the horse is out of the barn, they can't say "Oops, we goofed". No government would. Rather, they are likely busy trying to find something that kinda sorta fits what he alluded to, but avoids the legal hassle.

Someone will undoubtedly raise the notion that such a penalty/fee would imply that those who seek emergency services for something they _could have_ avoided, by their own choices, should also pay a fee. I.E., If you're gonna be a 2-pack-a-day man, don't expect ME to pay for your cancer treatment. I sympathize with the sentiment, but a) smoking is clearly associated with increased risk, but quite as directly and uniquely as being stranded on a cliffside is connected to the choice to go to that cliff, and b) the person could be said to have already made a down-payment on their treatment via tobacco taxes.

As I'm fond of repeating, public policy drafted in response to current events is usually sloppy policy.

EDIT: This post may have transgressed against the guidelines about "politics". If folks, or the moderators, feel the urge to nix it, I won't be offended. It's just a comment about one "community" effort to get the unvaxxed immunized.


----------



## Mark Brown

mhammer said:


> As I posted earlier, one of the most tried and true maxims in economics is that if you make a choice costly, people will be less likely to make that choice. And much of law and public policy is predicated on that. Commit a crime, or transgress against a by-law, and expect to see jail-time or pay a fine.
> 
> Some disincentives for bad choices are more in the realm of "nudges" to encourage better choices, than slaps on the wrist to punish poorer ones. So, taxes are added to the sale of tobacco and alcohol products to offset the community/society costs of substance abuse and excess. As I also posted earlier, one risks encouraging unwanted outcomes if the disincentives are too severe.
> 
> This afternoon, Quebec announced that an as-yet-unspecified-but-described-as-substantial user fee would be levied to unvaccinated individuals who end up in hospital with Covid. At a superficial level, it makes sense, and seems ethically sound...superficially. If you insist on inviting risk that results in significant cost to "the system", that merits strong disincentives. Think of folks who insist on "daredevil" treks in the wild, that end up costing tens of thousands - if not more - in rescue costs, when they get stranded or lost. Admittedly, that's an extreme case.
> 
> Several things come to mind, though. One, would such a fee be severe enough to shape behaviour, but also result in unwanted behaviours and ways to cheat the system? For instance, we see that some folks are going to emergency for one health problem, but are found out to be Covid-positive as well. Would we see people coming in for an injury - perhaps self-inflicted - in order to avoid such a fee? A second issue is whether such fees contravene the Canada Health Act, and whether the Notwithstanding Clause of the Charter can take supercede the CHA (my guess is no, since one of the underlying principles of the CHA is "universality"). Of course, a fee does not contravene "universality", and plenty of procedures and services entail user fees. But as announced on the 5:00 news, Quebec is currently examining the practical and legal implications of the proposed fee. Would they step back from the fee, given that they have announced it? My guess is no. Not that they may not currently be wishing Legault _hadn't_ made that fist-shaking announcement, but now that the horse is out of the barn, they can't say "Oops, we goofed". No government would. Rather, they are likely busy trying to find something that kinda sorta fits what he alluded to, but avoids the legal hassle.
> 
> Someone will undoubtedly raise the notion that such a penalty/fee would imply that those who seek emergency services for something they _could have_ avoided, by their own choices, should also pay a fee. I.E., If you're gonna be a 2-pack-a-day man, don't expect ME to pay for your cancer treatment. I sympathize with the sentiment, but a) smoking is clearly associated with increased risk, but quite as directly and uniquely as being stranded on a cliffside is connected to the choice to go to that cliff, and b) the person could be said to have already made a down-payment on their treatment via tobacco taxes.
> 
> As I'm fond of repeating, public policy drafted in response to current events is usually sloppy policy.


Well said. I dare say you have an eloquence in expressing your opinion that I lack.


----------



## mhammer

Brunz said:


> Well said. I dare say you have an eloquence in expressing your opinion that I lack.


Thanks. I'm sure you'll have your turn.


----------



## player99

mhammer said:


> As I posted earlier, one of the most tried and true maxims in economics is that if you make a choice costly, people will be less likely to make that choice. And much of law and public policy is predicated on that. Commit a crime, or transgress against a by-law, and expect to see jail-time or pay a fine.
> 
> Some disincentives for bad choices are more in the realm of "nudges" to encourage better choices, than slaps on the wrist to punish poorer ones. So, taxes are added to the sale of tobacco and alcohol products to offset the community/society costs of substance abuse and excess. As I also posted earlier, one risks encouraging unwanted outcomes if the disincentives are too severe.
> 
> This afternoon, Quebec announced that an as-yet-unspecified-but-described-as-substantial user fee would be levied to unvaccinated individuals who end up in hospital with Covid. At a superficial level, it makes sense, and seems ethically sound...superficially. If you insist on inviting risk that results in significant cost to "the system", that merits strong disincentives. Think of folks who insist on "daredevil" treks in the wild, that end up costing tens of thousands - if not more - in rescue costs, when they get stranded or lost. Admittedly, that's an extreme case.
> 
> Several things come to mind, though. One, would such a fee be severe enough to shape behaviour, but also result in unwanted behaviours and ways to cheat the system? For instance, we see that some folks are going to emergency for one health problem, but are found out to be Covid-positive as well. Would we see people coming in for an injury - perhaps self-inflicted - in order to avoid such a fee? A second issue is whether such fees contravene the Canada Health Act, and whether the Notwithstanding Clause of the Charter can supercede the CHA (my guess is no, since one of the underlying principles of the CHA is "universality"). Of course, a fee does not contravene "universality", and plenty of procedures and services entail user fees. But as announced on the 5:00 news, Quebec is currently examining the practical and legal implications of the proposed fee. Would they step back from the fee, given that they have announced it? My guess is no. Not that they may not currently be wishing Legault _hadn't_ made that fist-shaking announcement, but now that the horse is out of the barn, they can't say "Oops, we goofed". No government would. Rather, they are likely busy trying to find something that kinda sorta fits what he alluded to, but avoids the legal hassle.
> 
> Someone will undoubtedly raise the notion that such a penalty/fee would imply that those who seek emergency services for something they _could have_ avoided, by their own choices, should also pay a fee. I.E., If you're gonna be a 2-pack-a-day man, don't expect ME to pay for your cancer treatment. I sympathize with the sentiment, but a) smoking is clearly associated with increased risk, but quite as directly and uniquely as being stranded on a cliffside is connected to the choice to go to that cliff, and b) the person could be said to have already made a down-payment on their treatment via tobacco taxes.
> 
> As I'm fond of repeating, public policy drafted in response to current events is usually sloppy policy.
> 
> EDIT: This post may have transgressed against the guidelines about "politics". If folks, or the moderators, feel the urge to nix it, I won't be offended. It's just a comment about one "community" effort to get the unvaxxed immunized.


Another unwanted behaviour from a fee will be people staying at home and dying from covid because of the fee. Which would be tragic.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Extra fees for healthcare for unvaxed people is a slippery slope as has been observed already. Risky behaviour is no excuse to charge the risk takers extra. As noted we can use smokers and drinkers, who, by and large, already pay for extra health care with the huge taxes charged (even though those taxes are probably funnelled elsewhere).

Unhealthy life style choices are sometimes not choices. If we continue down this slipplery slope what will be next? Dietary intake? I'm sure you have all bought groceries and are aware of the prices. Some people just can't afford a regular intake of fresh veggies, and the price of meat is nuts too. So then it becomes waging war against the poor who cannot afford to ingest proper meals with regularity. A class struggle. The excuse for unvaxed people being charged extra are the same as any other circumstance that is not condusive to good health, and some people just don't have a choice to lead what some would consider a healthy lifestyle.


----------



## mhammer

Jim DaddyO said:


> Extra fees for healthcare for unvaxed people is a slippery slope as has been observed already. Risky behaviour is no excuse to charge the risk takers extra. As noted we can use smokers and drinkers, who, by and large, already pay for extra health care with the huge taxes charged (even though those taxes are probably funnelled elsewhere).
> 
> Unhealthy life style choices are sometimes not choices. If we continue down this slipplery slope what will be next? Dietary intake? I'm sure you have all bought groceries and are aware of the prices. Some people just can't afford a regular intake of fresh veggies, and the price of meat is nuts too. So then it becomes waging war against the poor who cannot afford to ingest proper meals with regularity. A class struggle. The excuse for unvaxed people being charged extra are the same as any other circumstance that is not condusive to good health, and some people just don't have a choice to lead what some would consider a healthy lifestyle.


My thoughts exactly. (Although the proof-of-vaccination requirement for SAQ and pot shops seems to be doing the trick.) But I suspect there will not be any single measure that will bring the vax rate up to 100%. And with even boostered people cluttering the ER, the Quebec government is not going to have a particularly strong case. If I got my booster and decided to go unmasked to a New Year's party the next day, and somebody else is vax-hesitant but wears their mask responsibly, why should they get dinged and I don't? Nope, I expect the eventual court challenge costs will eat up whatever revenue they thought might be generated to offset hospital costs. Public policy in kneejerk response to current events is generally lousy policy. Partly because it is too hastily conceived to be well thought-out, and also because it tends to foster tunnel vision and failure to consider spinoffs or a broad-enough range of contexts and circumstances.

Was the idea Horatio Arruda's "swan song"? Or was it the Legault cabinet's idea without a public health official to guide them?


----------



## tomee2

Nice graphic showing why 50% unvaccinated in the ICU is really bad.



https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-questions-boosters-omicron-1.6306774












United airlines says their vaccine mandate saved 10 to 12 lives since it started.

United says 3,000 employees have COVID, but its vaccine mandate has saved lives United says 3,000 employees have COVID, but its vaccine mandate has saved lives


----------



## Mark Brown

tomee2 said:


> Nice graphic showing why 50% unvaccinated in the ICU is really bad.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/covid-questions-boosters-omicron-1.6306774
> 
> 
> View attachment 397094
> 
> 
> 
> United airlines says their vaccine mandate saved 10 to 12 lives since it started.
> 
> United says 3,000 employees have COVID, but its vaccine mandate has saved lives United says 3,000 employees have COVID, but its vaccine mandate has saved lives


I saw this on the cbc this morning and thought it was the best way to express to people what it really means.


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## 2manyGuitars

Mikev7305 said:


> The unvaxxed seem to generally have a better grasp on how to help themselves stay healthy in other ways.


Unless you have something to back that up, I’m going to call BS on that and throw out some unsubstantiated opinion as well. While I’m sure some _are_ healthy, a lot of the anti-vaxxers I’ve seen look like a thumb with a goatee, are packing an extra fiddy-plus pounds, and the only green they eat comes on a burger (which gets pulled off anyway).


----------



## Mikev7305

^^ lol yeah it was probably a reach of a statement. The ones I know anyways all seem to be very healthy and in tune with their bodies


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## allthumbs56

player99 said:


> Another unwanted behaviour from a fee will be people staying at home and dying from covid because of the fee. Which would be tragic.


My understanding is that it may actually appear on one's tax return. Apparently Quebec has a tax mechanism in place for some healthcare premium already. Anybody in Quebec weigh in on that one?


----------



## laristotle




----------



## 2manyGuitars

I’m not sure yet what my thoughts are on a tax or penalty for unvaccinated COVID patients but I do know one thing…

Big Macs aren’t contagious.


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## Mikev7305

I got covid from my triple vaxxed mom in a 20 minute visit. Quit fooling your self saying when you're vaxxed you're less contagious. It spills out of you the exact same.


----------



## player99

Mikev7305 said:


> I got covid from my triple vaxxed mom in a 20 minute visit. Quit fooling your self saying when you're vaxxed you're less contagious. It spills out of you the exact same.


Omacron's ability to infect changed that stuff. But even so I think there is still less viral load spewing out when vaxxed. However, 20 minutes with someone who has covid and is infectious is going to absolutely give you omacon. Nobody is saying when you are vaxxed you're less contagious. At least nobody that is aware of the science from actual medical people in the news.

I wish for both you and your mom a speedy recovery.


----------



## player99

This guy is great at giving info about the govt and benefits and covid legislation etc.

His channel of all his YouTube vids. He also does tax and investment law and benefit info as well.


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKkJ6AzefsMCvvaR5YY2hxA/videos


----------



## mhammer

player99 said:


> Omacron's ability to infect changed that stuff. But even so I think there is still less viral load spewing out when vaxxed. However, 20 minutes with someone who has covid and is infectious is going to absolutely give you omacon. Nobody is saying when you are vaxxed you're less contagious. At least nobody that is aware of the science from actual medical people in the news.
> 
> I wish for both you and your mom a speedy recovery.


Same wishes from me.
With Delta, we became keenly aware of the critical role of time and replication-rate vs antibody lag. Vaxxed individuals CAN "catch up" to fast-replicating viruses, but that immunity is NOT a brick wall, nor is it an immediate response. It's a we'll-get-there-when-we-get-there response. Vaxxed persons CAN be contagious if carrying enough of a viral load.

There is also some "slippage" in the perception of bubbles. Fifteen months ago, we restricted ourselves to those in our household, and everyone else was technically outside our bubble and consequently off-limits. As time went on, and restrictions got lifted or loosened, the idea of bubble kind of disappeared. I suppose chatting with people outdoors or in the checkout line at Home Depot didn't help, either. And of course, if it's a family member or good friend, you don't think about treating them as "outside your bubble".

I don't blame Mike for visiting his mom. But I think it illustrates how slack we've ALL gotten about our respective bubbles. We've stopped thinking in terms of "if I don't live with this person 24/7, then I have to treat them as a potential carrier". I'm guilty of it myself. It's not helping.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Mikev7305 said:


> I got covid from my triple vaxxed mom in a 20 minute visit. Quit fooling your self saying when you're vaxxed you're less contagious. It spills out of you the exact same.


Best wishes for both of you recovering quickly. Good thing she had the vax or the visit could have taken place in a hospital room, ICU ward, or worse.


----------



## dgreen

Mikev7305 said:


> People who choose to smoke should pay too. And people who choose to eat McDonald's every other day. Maybe we should gang together and create a system where people can't go into concerts unless they can prove they ate a salad in the last week? The unvaxxed seem to generally have a better grasp on how to help themselves stay healthy in other ways. Vax seems like the easy way out, I prefer the healthy lifestyle route.


Perhaps one could say the vaccinated are also aware that smoking / excess drinking is not healthy, Mcdonalds and similar are diets for those that choose to eat unhealthy and I would totally be in favour of a tax added to all junk food restaurants to cover additional health care costs down the road and of course heavily increase the tax on cig's and alcohol. 
Triple vac'd myself as that is part of maintaining a healthy lifestyle imo.


----------



## Mikev7305

Thanks for the well wishes guys I really appreciate it. And I don't regret seeing her and catching covid from it. We said fairly early on that if she can't see her grandkids then she won't have anything to look forward to. We'd both rather catch it and have spent time with each other because spending time with loved ones is the most important part of life. Especially to young kids. They need their nana around. And honestly if I didn't have her to help out once in a while I'd be in far worse shape than I am today.


----------



## mhammer

Family, eh? Can't live with 'em. Can't pawn them. But you can't live without them.


----------



## Mooh

When the schools go virtual, my private lessons go virtual. I'm tied to school schedules because society is tied to school schedules. With C-19 it feels like I'm just going along for the ride now. 

Have there been any FX pedals released yet with names inspired by the pandemic? O'Micron looper? Macron overdrive? Co-vidependence chorus?


----------



## Milkman

Mmmmm, just finished off a nice warm glass of urine (the latest cure for covid).


----------



## Wardo




----------



## tomee2

Smoking and eating doughnuts is not contagious. The combination of sudden unexpected onset of illness with a high likelihood of death and it being contagious means it can't be compared to sosomething like heart disease or cancer.


----------



## allthumbs56

Regarding Quebec and this "Unvaccinated Fee", I understand that Quebecers already pay an annual healthcare fee based on their income (RAMQ) up to $710 per year. If I've got that right then the mechanism is already in place. Country-wide it's a great excuse to set us up for 2-tiered healthcare, ain't it?


----------



## Paul Running

Wardo said:


> View attachment 397145


----------



## colchar

Mikev7305 said:


> I got covid from my triple vaxxed mom in a 20 minute visit. Quit fooling your self saying when you're vaxxed you're less contagious. It spills out of you the exact same.


Nobody is saying being vaxxed makes you less contagious, we are saying it makes you less likely to experience serious illness.

And there is no way for you to know where you picked up an airborne virus so you cannot definitively say that you got it from your mother.


----------



## colchar

Mikev7305 said:


> The unvaxxed seem to generally have a better grasp on how to help themselves stay healthy in other ways. Vax seems like the easy way out, I prefer the healthy lifestyle route.


Funniest shit I've read all day.


----------



## colchar

Brunz said:


> Where do you draw that line? I mean, the obvious argument is against obesity, that is a choice.


Um no, it is not.




> Why carry on the charade that we can "vaccinate our way out".


Congrats on missing the point of vaccinations, and in rather spectacular fashion.


----------



## colchar

Jim DaddyO said:


> Extra fees for healthcare for unvaxed people is a slippery slope as has been observed already.
> 
> Risky behaviour is no excuse to charge the risk takers extra. As noted we can use smokers and drinkers, who, by and large, already pay for extra health care with the huge taxes charged (even though those taxes are probably funnelled elsewhere).
> 
> Unhealthy life style choices are sometimes not choices. If we continue down this slipplery slope what will be next? Dietary intake? I'm sure you have all bought groceries and are aware of the prices. Some people just can't afford a regular intake of fresh veggies, and the price of meat is nuts too. So then it becomes waging war against the poor who cannot afford to ingest proper meals with regularity. A class struggle. The excuse for unvaxed people being charged extra are the same as any other circumstance that is not condusive to good health, and some people just don't have a choice to lead what some would consider a healthy lifestyle.



Slippery slope arguments are logical fallacies and are thus invalid.

A does not necessarily lead to D.


----------



## zztomato

colchar said:


> Meanwhile, my younger brother who tested positive just after Christmas is being checked for pneumonia as he is having difficulty breathing. He is a marathon runner to the level that he was sponsored by Adidas and now by Nike, so he has good lungs. If his breathing has been affected this much, Covid must be a real bugger. He was double vaccinated, but had yet to get his booster when he caught it.


Unfortunately, that makes sense. Depending on what part of the training cycle an athlete is in, there are times when the immune system is pretty beat up while the body recovers from heavy training. Hope he bounces back well. There are no shortage of news stories about athletes being particularly hard hit by Covid.


----------



## laristotle

Wardo said:


>


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> Regarding Quebec and this "Unvaccinated Fee", I understand that Quebecers already pay an annual healthcare fee based on their income (RAMQ) up to $710 per year. If I've got that right then the mechanism is already in place. Country-wide it's a great excuse to set us up for 2-tiered healthcare, ain't it?


Two tier healthcare already exists.


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> Two tier healthcare already exists.


Not in an official capacity, but you're right - if I was a celebrity or a professional athlete, politician or otherwise wealthy person I could certainly jump the lines and get the very best care real fast.


----------



## Mikev7305

colchar said:


> Funniest shit I've read all day.


Yeah I wasn't thinking much when I wrote that one lol. It was more of my own experience with the anti vaxxers I know


----------



## allthumbs56

Mikev7305 said:


> I got covid from my triple vaxxed mom in a 20 minute visit. Quit fooling your self saying when you're vaxxed you're less contagious. It spills out of you the exact same.


I'm assuming that both of you have now tested positive but she was the first? You make the point that she was triple-vaxxed - does that mean that you were not?

Just tryin' to understand the predicament, is all.


----------



## Wardo

You have to oil up the K&N filters to get them working properly - those boys don’t seem to be doing that so another case of masks not being used properly. You’d think they’d know that.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

tomee2 said:


> Smoking and eating doughnuts is not contagious. The combination of sudden unexpected onset of illness with a high likelihood of death and it being contagious means it can't be compared to sosomething like heart disease or cancer.


I made the post a page or so back that "Big Macs are not contagious". Just like if I smoke a cigarette and get on a packed bus, I'm not going to spread lung cancer. Should they bear some responsibility? Probably, and that's why things like junk food, tobacco and alcohol are taxed.


allthumbs56 said:


> Regarding Quebec and this "Unvaccinated Fee", I understand that Quebecers already pay an annual healthcare fee based on their income (RAMQ) up to $710 per year. If I've got that right then the mechanism is already in place. Country-wide it's a great excuse to set us up for 2-tiered healthcare, ain't it?


Speaking of taxes (see my comment above), in Quebec, the price of each pack of cigarettes has about $10 in taxes. A pack a day is close to $4000 a year. By the time that smoker rolls into the hospital 20 or 30 years down the road with lung cancer, emphysema, or any number of other respiratory disorders, they've already been surcharged somewhere in the neighborhood of $100,000.

Where's the outrage?


----------



## laristotle

2manyGuitars said:


> Where's the outrage?


Smokers know that saying anything won't help.
That's why they go to the Rez.


----------



## mhammer

laristotle said:


>


I noticed a little tidbit in the closing credits. The video was directed by Danny "Machete" Trejo's son Gilbert. Cool.


----------



## Doctor Cheese

Interesting bit of info.
Just putting it there.








Cannabidiol Inhibits SARS-CoV-2 Replication and Promotes the Host Innate Immune Response


The rapid spread of COVID-19 underscores the need for new treatments. Here we report that cannabidiol (CBD), a compound produced by the cannabis plant, inhibits SARS-CoV-2 infection. CBD and its metabolite, 7-OH-CBD, but not congeneric cannabinoids, potently ...




www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## mawmow

allthumbs56 said:


> Regarding Quebec and this "Unvaccinated Fee", I understand that Quebecers already pay an annual healthcare fee based on their income (RAMQ) up to $710 per year. If I've got that right then the mechanism is already in place. Country-wide it's a great excuse to set us up for 2-tiered healthcare, ain't it?


Well, we fill two different yearly income reports, one for Canada and the other for Quebec.
The one in Quebec includes a "contribution" to health care fund (FFS) based on income and that goes from 150 to 1000$.
In addition, it is mandarory to have a medication insurance : You have to take any private contract you could acces at work, if not (or if you reached 65 years old), yout take the Quebec's (662$ base, up to some 1144$), paying the base through the income tax file.

Now, getting to yesterday announcement, the thing is far from done ! First, it is based on loose numbers : 50% in hospital unvaxxed. Half of those are not in hospital for Covid. And it is now proven that even three vaccine shots do not protect from getting and shedding covid virus : Most homes for the aged are not infected ! So, the non vaccinated getting in hospital for other reasons could bare the virus even if vaccinated. 
And what causes the hospital crash is multifactorial : double dose vaccinated people imported Delta and Omicron variants (while they were allowed to travel though we already new the protection was only up to 70% at best) and workers are massively on sick leaves, partly because they were not well protected at work. But basically, the health care system had been neglected for thirty years with continuous downsizing : It could basically not stand any disaster anymore !
So, the gov and media send the non vaccinated in the arena for the the vaccinated to bite on something else than the failure of vaccines to produce mass immunity that is now utopic.

The truth is we now have to learn to live with Covid and the only real good protection is the basic one : Stay home ! The lockdown did work before we got the flawed vaccine alleged protection. That is how I live as a retiree. Others have to get the vaccine because they cannot stay home. By the way, for one non vaccinated, three people got their third shot : Do we prefer "wasting" a first shot or help someone else because a non vaxxed deciding to get the vaccine today will be protected... in three moths, when the omicron will be past history.


----------



## mhammer

Milkman said:


> Mmmmm, just finished off a nice warm glass of urine (the latest cure for covid).


I hope it wasn't something your daughter made "swirly" and artsy with paint/stain.


----------



## Milkman

mhammer said:


> I hope it wasn't something your daughter made "swirly" and artsy with paint/stain.



No, I just thought it looked a bit cloudy so I decided to pass it through again.


----------



## mhammer

Doctor Cheese said:


> Interesting bit of info.
> Just putting it there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cannabidiol Inhibits SARS-CoV-2 Replication and Promotes the Host Innate Immune Response
> 
> 
> The rapid spread of COVID-19 underscores the need for new treatments. Here we report that cannabidiol (CBD), a compound produced by the cannabis plant, inhibits SARS-CoV-2 infection. CBD and its metabolite, 7-OH-CBD, but not congeneric cannabinoids, potently ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


Interesting, but read the report, and it is an in vitro study of cells, NOT a clinical trial of whole people. But interesting.


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## 2manyGuitars

mhammer said:


> Interesting, but read the report, and it is an in vitro study of cells, NOT a clinical trial of whole people. But interesting.


Posted in the memo thread but it now bears repeating here..


----------



## Doctor Cheese

mhammer said:


> Interesting, but read the report, and it is an in vitro study of cells, NOT a clinical trial of whole people. But interesting.


Indeed!
But studies need to start somewhere before we start testing on people, no? I mean, I'd be happy about getting as baked as possible every day from now until the end of the pandemic, but...yeah, I don't think I'm the one to do that. heh
If you've ever faced cancer or another life threatening disease or terminal diagnosis, you understand the need for "hope". (survivor here)

--> And when there is a dearth of hope, there are always flippant rationalisations to partake in excessive vice as we spiral down the drain! 
[insert bong hit noises here]

(actually, no bong hits - I need to track vocals shortly and I can't hit a note if I'm baked)

Handing the thread back - have a lovely day!


----------



## Mark Brown

Call me crazy but I will just be a whole lot happier when the world is back to being about 3 ticks more rational and a whole lot more compassionate. I cant help to hope this is not too much to ask.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Got my booster today. It was Moderna, apparently there is a shortage of Phizer worldwide as far as the nurse at the clinic said today. I understand from other reading that they are channelling them into younger folks vax's in Ontario at least.


----------



## Choo5440

Jim DaddyO said:


> Got my booster today. It was Moderna, apparently there is a shortage of Phizer worldwide as far as the nurse at the clinic said today. I understand from other reading that they are channelling them into younger folks vax's in Ontario at least.


guidance has been pfizer for under 30 male patients due to increased myocarditis/pericarditis risks. they recently updated it to include anyone under 30.


----------



## allthumbs56

mawmow said:


> Well, we fill two different yearly income reports, one for Canada and the other for Quebec.
> The one in Quebec includes a "contribution" to health care fund (FFS) based on income and that goes from 150 to 1000$.
> In addition, it is mandarory to have a medication insurance : You have to take any private contract you could acces at work, if not (or if you reached 65 years old), yout take the Quebec's (662$ base, up to some 1144$), paying the base through the income tax file.
> 
> Now, getting to yesterday announcement, the thing is far from done ! First, it is based on loose numbers : 50% in hospital unvaxxed. Half of those are not in hospital for Covid. And it is now proven that even three vaccine shots do not protect from getting and shedding covid virus : Most homes for the aged are not infected ! So, the non vaccinated getting in hospital for other reasons could bare the virus even if vaccinated.
> And what causes the hospital crash is multifactorial : double dose vaccinated people imported Delta and Omicron variants (while they were allowed to travel though we already new the protection was only up to 70% at best) and workers are massively on sick leaves, partly because they were not well protected at work. But basically, the health care system had been neglected for thirty years with continuous downsizing : It could basically not stand any disaster anymore !
> So, the gov and media send the non vaccinated in the arena for the the vaccinated to bite on something else than the failure of vaccines to produce mass immunity that is now utopic.
> 
> The truth is we now have to learn to live with Covid and the only real good protection is the basic one : Stay home ! The lockdown did work before we got the flawed vaccine alleged protection. That is how I live as a retiree. Others have to get the vaccine because they cannot stay home. By the way, for one non vaccinated, three people got their third shot : Do we prefer "wasting" a first shot or help someone else because a non vaxxed deciding to get the vaccine today will be protected... in three moths, when the omicron will be past history.


Thanks for the response. We're in the same boat here in Ontario - with the exception that we don't have to pay anything for our healthcare as our government pays it for us from a magic pot  👍


----------



## allthumbs56

Doctor Cheese said:


> Interesting bit of info.
> Just putting it there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cannabidiol Inhibits SARS-CoV-2 Replication and Promotes the Host Innate Immune Response
> 
> 
> The rapid spread of COVID-19 underscores the need for new treatments. Here we report that cannabidiol (CBD), a compound produced by the cannabis plant, inhibits SARS-CoV-2 infection. CBD and its metabolite, 7-OH-CBD, but not congeneric cannabinoids, potently ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


This dates back to last March. Any updates?


----------



## Mark Brown

allthumbs56 said:


> This dates back to last March. Any updates?


They got high and forgot about it I think.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> Got my booster today. It was Moderna, apparently there is a shortage of Phizer worldwide as far as the nurse at the clinic said today. I understand from other reading that they are channelling them into younger folks vax's in Ontario at least.


I got mine this morning too. Pfizer. I heard they had some supply issues with Pfizer but here in Niagara we're using it.

Of course we probably got a good deal on some clearance day-old stuff - or we're using the off-brand "Fpizer" stuff smuggled in through Buffalo


----------



## Wardo

allthumbs56 said:


> …. our government pays it for us from a magic pot  👍


Also known as a Thunder Mug.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Wardo said:


> Thunder Mug.


There is no Thunder Mug. Bill Durst died a few years ago.


----------



## laristotle

allthumbs56 said:


> government pays it for us from a magic pot


Except when it comes to our eyes.


----------



## mhammer

Doctor Cheese said:


> Indeed!
> But studies need to start somewhere before we start testing on people, no?


Absolutely. But it's important to recognize when something is around the corner vs 100 miles away.



> I mean, I'd be happy about getting as baked as possible every day from now until the end of the pandemic, but...yeah, I don't think I'm the one to do that. heh


But CBD is not "the baking agent". THC is.


> Handing the thread back - have a lovely day!


And you too, good sir!

Incidentally, is the "Doctor" a title or a descriptor, the way that "toe cheese" indicates where the cheese is from?


----------



## Midnight Rider

Milkman said:


> Mmmmm, just finished off a nice warm glass of urine (the latest cure for covid).


Can you provide a dink link to the pee peer reviewed study?


----------



## Midnight Rider

laristotle said:


> View attachment 397151


Have the K&N on my Challenger,... good for 100,000 miles intervals before cleaning and re-oil required,... just think of the great mileage the average human can get!

On my way to the garage now to remove and borrow the filter for the rest of the winter,... thanks for posting this,... you're a lifesaver!!!,


----------



## Midnight Rider

mhammer said:


> As I posted earlier, one of the most tried and true maxims in economics is that if you make a choice costly, people will be less likely to make that choice. And much of law and public policy is predicated on that. Commit a crime, or transgress against a by-law, and expect to see jail-time or pay a fine.
> 
> Some disincentives for bad choices are more in the realm of "nudges" to encourage better choices, than slaps on the wrist to punish poorer ones. So, taxes are added to the sale of tobacco and alcohol products to offset the community/society costs of substance abuse and excess. As I also posted earlier, one risks encouraging unwanted outcomes if the disincentives are too severe.
> 
> This afternoon, Quebec announced that an as-yet-unspecified-but-described-as-substantial user fee would be levied to unvaccinated individuals who end up in hospital with Covid. At a superficial level, it makes sense, and seems ethically sound...superficially. If you insist on inviting risk that results in significant cost to "the system", that merits strong disincentives. Think of folks who insist on "daredevil" treks in the wild, that end up costing tens of thousands - if not more - in rescue costs, when they get stranded or lost. Admittedly, that's an extreme case.
> 
> Several things come to mind, though. One, would such a fee be severe enough to shape behaviour, but also result in unwanted behaviours and ways to cheat the system? For instance, we see that some folks are going to emergency for one health problem, but are found out to be Covid-positive as well. Would we see people coming in for an injury - perhaps self-inflicted - in order to avoid such a fee? A second issue is whether such fees contravene the Canada Health Act, and whether the Notwithstanding Clause of the Charter can supercede the CHA (my guess is no, since one of the underlying principles of the CHA is "universality"). Of course, a fee does not contravene "universality", and plenty of procedures and services entail user fees. But as announced on the 5:00 news, Quebec is currently examining the practical and legal implications of the proposed fee. Would they step back from the fee, given that they have announced it? My guess is no. Not that they may not currently be wishing Legault _hadn't_ made that fist-shaking announcement, but now that the horse is out of the barn, they can't say "Oops, we goofed". No government would. Rather, they are likely busy trying to find something that kinda sorta fits what he alluded to, but avoids the legal hassle.
> 
> Someone will undoubtedly raise the notion that such a penalty/fee would imply that those who seek emergency services for something they _could have_ avoided, by their own choices, should also pay a fee. I.E., If you're gonna be a 2-pack-a-day man, don't expect ME to pay for your cancer treatment. I sympathize with the sentiment, but a) smoking is clearly associated with increased risk, but quite as directly and uniquely as being stranded on a cliffside is connected to the choice to go to that cliff, and b) the person could be said to have already made a down-payment on their treatment via tobacco taxes.
> 
> As I'm fond of repeating, public policy drafted in response to current events is usually sloppy policy.
> 
> EDIT: This post may have transgressed against the guidelines about "politics". If folks, or the moderators, feel the urge to nix it, I won't be offended. It's just a comment about one "community" effort to get the unvaxxed immunized.


"There are unjust laws,... as there are unjust men.",... once said a very wise man.


----------



## player99

I'll never use the K&M filters again. They're no fun.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Here's a bit of news that is a bit better.






It would be a bit more than ironic if this ends up eradicating the common cold (as a way outside thought).


----------



## Wardo

Midnight Rider said:


> On my way to the garage now to remove and borrow the filter for the rest of the winter,...


For the best protection you need to oil your nose hairs too.


----------



## laristotle

Code Orange, Code Black: Deciphering 'secret' hospital emergency messages


Code Orange, Code Black: 'Secret' hospital emergency messages




www.healthing.ca


----------



## laristotle

Top scientists believed COVID leaked from Wuhan lab but feared going public: Emails


The newly unredacted emails show that by February 2, 2020, scientists were already trying to shut down the debate into the laboratory leak theory




nationalpost.com





_An email from Sir Jeremy Farrar, director of the Wellcome Trust, on February 2 2020 said that “a likely explanation” was that COVID had rapidly evolved from a SARS-like virus inside human tissue in a low-security lab.

The email, to Dr. Anthony Fauci and Dr. Francis Collins of the U.S. National Institutes of Health, went on to say that such evolution may have “accidentally created a virus primed for rapid transmission between humans.”

But a leading scientist told Farrar that “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular.” Collins, the former director of the U.S. National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony.”

Viscount Ridley, co-author of Viral: the search for the origin of COVID, said: “These emails show a lamentable lack of openness and transparency among Western scientists who appear to have been more interested in shutting down a hypothesis they thought was very plausible, for political reasons.”_


----------



## Choo5440

laristotle said:


> Code Orange, Code Black: Deciphering 'secret' hospital emergency messages
> 
> 
> Code Orange, Code Black: 'Secret' hospital emergency messages
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.healthing.ca


just an FYI - very few of these are standard across the country, by city, or even institutions.
the main (common) ones are code blue, white, red, and brown


----------



## keto

Choo5440 said:


> just an FYI - very few of these are standard across the country, by city, or even institutions.
> the main (common) ones are code blue, white, red, and brown


I was sadly happy to find my guess on code brown was correct, or something like that.🔫🚿


----------



## 2manyGuitars

keto said:


> I was sadly happy to find my guess on code brown was correct, or something like that.🔫🚿


At a previous place of employment, the nearest washroom was a good 400 metres from the office. It was a far enough walk that if you thought you might be having a “gastro emergency” but wanted to wait to make sure, you were already too late.

It was accepted between me and my coworker that no matter the situation, even mid-sentence, one can call a code brown and just head for the crapper.


----------



## bolero

So if we all cruise around like Cheech & Chong with clouds of pot smoke surrounding us, it's an effective barrier against covid?


----------



## Choo5440

bolero said:


> So if we all cruise around like Cheech & Chong with clouds of pot smoke surrounding us, it's an effective barrier against covid?


Don't know about proven effectiveness, but it's not going to hurt!


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> Not in an official capacity, but you're right - if I was a celebrity or a professional athlete, politician or otherwise wealthy person I could certainly jump the lines and get the very best care real fast.


There are all kinds of private clinics. Hell, outside of a hospital where do you think you get blood drawn and x-rays done?


----------



## colchar

Choo5440 said:


> just an FYI - very few of these are standard across the country, by city, or even institutions.
> the main (common) ones are code blue, white, red, and brown


Five years ago at this time we were spending a _lot_ of time in a hospital because my Dad was dying (the fifth anniversary of his death is this Friday). He was in Etobicoke General and we had wanted to bring him to Brampton Civic, the hospital closest to home. We were told he was unlikely to survive the ambulance ride, and that there was no room for him at Brampton Civic so he stayed where he was. Over and over and over again that week we heard them announce 'Code Gridlock'. That goes to show how long our hospitals have been operating at the edge of their capacity, and why it is so important to reduce Covid cases so as to avoid that or worse happening again.


----------



## bolero

laristotle said:


> Top scientists believed COVID leaked from Wuhan lab but feared going public: Emails
> 
> 
> The newly unredacted emails show that by February 2, 2020, scientists were already trying to shut down the debate into the laboratory leak theory
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _An email from Sir Jeremy Farrar, director of the Wellcome Trust, on February 2 2020 said that “a likely explanation” was that COVID had rapidly evolved from a SARS-like virus inside human tissue in a low-security lab.
> 
> The email, to Dr. Anthony Fauci and Dr. Francis Collins of the U.S. National Institutes of Health, went on to say that such evolution may have “accidentally created a virus primed for rapid transmission between humans.”
> 
> But a leading scientist told Farrar that “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular.” Collins, the former director of the U.S. National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony.”
> 
> Viscount Ridley, co-author of Viral: the search for the origin of COVID, said: “These emails show a lamentable lack of openness and transparency among Western scientists who appear to have been more interested in shutting down a hypothesis they thought was very plausible, for political reasons.”_


Well now. That's a big fucking surprise, isn't it?

But of course it's racist to even consider that China has questionable regulatory practices.


----------



## player99

Do you think the people of USA are actually smart enough to deal with the truth? They are the dumbest on the planet, so they need to be lied to. Look what half the morons in the country do with the truth they have now.


----------



## FatStrat2

^ Yup, but which moron half though?


----------



## laristotle




----------



## tomee2

Inside an ICU where 70 per cent of COVID-19 patients are unvaccinated


This is where the Omicron wave is starting to show its worst side: inside the ICU at Toronto General, which is filling up with critically ill COVID-19 patients, the majority of whom are unvaccinated.




www.ctvnews.ca


----------



## ZeroGravity

tomee2 said:


> Inside an ICU where 70 per cent of COVID-19 patients are unvaccinated
> 
> 
> This is where the Omicron wave is starting to show its worst side: inside the ICU at Toronto General, which is filling up with critically ill COVID-19 patients, the majority of whom are unvaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca


I just saw that as well. I posted a few pages ago that some epidmiologist-type said that even a small percentage of a very large number is still a large number, and the above is an example of that.


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> Five years ago at this time we were spending a _lot_ of time in a hospital because my Dad was dying (the fifth anniversary of his death is this Friday). He was in Etobicoke General and we had wanted to bring him to Brampton Civic, the hospital closest to home. We were told he was unlikely to survive the ambulance ride, and that there was no room for him at Brampton Civic so he stayed where he was. Over and over and over again that week we heard them announce 'Code Gridlock'. That goes to show how long our hospitals have been operating at the edge of their capacity, and *why it is so important to reduce Covid cases so as to avoid that or worse happening again*.


First, speaking from experience, it takes a while until such anniversaries stop being the sort of ruminating events they can be. My folks are gone 39 and 41 years, now, and one still gets flashbacks. It's a sign of affection.

Second. publicly-funded health care is only as good as there are beds and staff to provide it. And since the time arc needed to increase capacity of either of those is so long, that puts the onus on citizens who expect to use such services to do what they can to reduce their need in the present. A person can either get themselves into tremendous debt because one day...ONE day...they're going to have a really good-paying job to pay off that debt, or they can make a point of living within their means until that blessed day arrives.

People need to start thinking of things not as "more cases", but as "less hospital"..


----------



## allthumbs56

tomee2 said:


> Inside an ICU where 70 per cent of COVID-19 patients are unvaccinated
> 
> 
> This is where the Omicron wave is starting to show its worst side: inside the ICU at Toronto General, which is filling up with critically ill COVID-19 patients, the majority of whom are unvaccinated.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.ctvnews.ca


What I find confusing in that article is that they state 70% are unvaxxed, but go on to say 

_"Ontario is reporting 3,448 people hospitalized with COVID-19, and 505 in the ICU, a number that experts are worried could increase over time. Among the ICU cases for which vaccination status was reported as of Jan. 12, 157 were unvaccinated, 19 were partially vaccinated and 167 were fully vaccinated."_​
Which doesn't seem to support the argument.


----------



## allthumbs56

mhammer said:


> People need to start thinking of things not as "more cases", but as "less hospital"..


The correct answer is most likely some of both.

Where we all come up short is planning on "when it'll be over" rather than "when it gets worse".


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Wife and I are both feeling like 10 lbs of shit stuffed into a 5 lb bag. Sore arms some upset stomach from the booster. We both didn't sleep well. But, this too shall pass. At least we are as protected as we can get as far as modern medicine is concerned.


----------



## allthumbs56

Jim DaddyO said:


> Wife and I are both feeling like 10 lbs of shit stuffed into a 5 lb bag. Sore arms some upset stomach from the booster. We both didn't sleep well. But, this too shall pass. At least we are as protected as we can get as far as modern medicine is concerned.


Got my booster yesterday morning. Had an odd kind of a headache last night. Bit of a sore shoulder today and maybe just a tiny bit futzy-headed - but otherwise ok. Maggs goes Saturday.


----------



## Guitar101

I see the government caved on not letting unvaccinated truck drivers from the US cross the border. It was supposed to start this weekend. It seems there are too many unvaccinated truck drivers and truck drivers are in short supply as it is.

Update: It looks like they have reversed their decision again and US truckers that cross the Canadian border to come into Canada will need to be vaccinated.


----------



## mhammer

My pre-booster advice is: Get anything you might need to reach up over your head for, during the next few days, down to chest height, BEFORE you get your shot. Standing or sitting, doing nothing or typing or using the TV remote, is fine. Reaching *up*, above one's head, to quote Norm McDonald "Hurts like a bastard".


----------



## mhammer

Guitar101 said:


> I see the government caved on not letting unvaccinated truck drivers cross the border. It was supposed to start this weekend. It seems there are too many unvaccinated truck drivers and truck drivers are in short supply as it is.


Costs and benefits. Costs and benefits, baby. The prospect of $4/head lettuce...IF you can find it, does not bode well for civic happiness.


----------



## Milkman

Funny, my booster shot didn't hurt a bit and almost no sore shoulder afterwards.

I'm convinced that it has more to do with the person with the syringe in his or her hand than with the person receiving it.


----------



## mhammer

Milkman said:


> Funny, my booster shot didn't hurt a bit and almost no sore shoulder afterwards.
> 
> I'm convinced that it has more to do with the person with the syringe in his or her hand than with the person receiving it.


It certainly CAN, but that doesn't mean it always_ does_, unless you have the same person pushing the plunger every time. If 3 different vaccinations from 3 different people results in shoulder pain, or DOESN'T, that probably has more to do with the recipient's inflammation response to injections than the injection style of the administrator or what's being administered.

In the mid-'70s, I went to give blood, and whoever was sticking the catheter needle into my arm must have stuck it in the wrong place, because I had random muscle spasms in that arm for several years afterward. It settled down after a while, but I never had anything like that occur ever, after that.


----------



## colchar

Guitar101 said:


> I see the government caved on not letting unvaccinated truck drivers from the US cross the border. It was supposed to start this weekend. It seems there are too many unvaccinated truck drivers and truck drivers are in short supply as it is.


Well they've never actually closed the border, or even come close, so why try it now with truck drivers?


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> My pre-booster advice is: Get anything you might need to reach up over your head for, during the next few days, down to chest height, BEFORE you get your shot. Standing or sitting, doing nothing or typing or using the TV remote, is fine. Reaching *up*, above one's head, to quote Norm McDonald "Hurts like a bastard".


Um, people have two arms and you only get the shot in one of them.


----------



## terminalvertigo

Covid-19 policy: Leading Israeli immunologist writes open letter: "It is time to admit failure" - The Rio Times


Professor Ehud Qimron, head of the Department of Microbiology and Immunology at Tel Aviv University and one of the leading Israeli immunologists, has written an open letter sharply criticizing the Israeli - and indeed global - management of the coronavirus pandemic.




www.riotimesonline.com


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> Um, people have two arms and you only get the shot in one of them.


Just make sure you get it in the arm you're NOT going to use!  Or that you move anything that may require two arms.


----------



## colchar

terminalvertigo said:


> Covid-19 policy: Leading Israeli immunologist writes open letter: "It is time to admit failure" - The Rio Times
> 
> 
> Professor Ehud Qimron, head of the Department of Microbiology and Immunology at Tel Aviv University and one of the leading Israeli immunologists, has written an open letter sharply criticizing the Israeli - and indeed global - management of the coronavirus pandemic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.riotimesonline.com



Meh, one guy's opinion.


----------



## Doug Gifford

Hmmmm…








The puzzle of America's record Covid hospital rate


Europe has fewer Covid patients in hospital now. Why are the US and Canada bucking the Omicron trend?



www.bbc.com


----------



## Jim DaddyO

mhammer said:


> My pre-booster advice is: Get anything you might need to reach up over your head for, during the next few days, down to chest height, BEFORE you get your shot. Standing or sitting, doing nothing or typing or using the TV remote, is fine. Reaching *up*, above one's head, to quote Norm McDonald "Hurts like a bastard".



I'll add to that is don't bend over for extended periods of time either. Like when you are changing a toilet seat. Learned that one the hard way today.


----------



## tomee2

Jim DaddyO said:


> Wife and I are both feeling like 10 lbs of shit stuffed into a 5 lb bag. Sore arms some upset stomach from the booster. We both didn't sleep well. But, this too shall pass. At least we are as protected as we can get as far as modern medicine is concerned.


That was exactly my reaction to it. A bad night of sleep and body aches. 24 hrs later I felt perfectly fine.


----------



## bolero

Doug Gifford said:


> Hmmmm…
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The puzzle of America's record Covid hospital rate
> 
> 
> Europe has fewer Covid patients in hospital now. Why are the US and Canada bucking the Omicron trend?
> 
> 
> 
> www.bbc.com


IMO this is a key factor:

"Dr Larsen noted that rates of hypertension and obesity - both of which are comorbidities that increase the risk of Covid - are higher in the US than in most other countries."

I saw an interview with a director who shot a film 20+ years ago, and he commented that if he shot it today, all the extras & people in the background would be 300lbs

The typical North American fast food diet ( Tim Hortons, anyone? ) & sedentary lifestyle is really unhealthy


----------



## tomee2

bolero said:


> IMO this is a key factor:
> 
> "Dr Larsen noted that rates of hypertension and obesity - both of which are comorbidities that increase the risk of Covid - are higher in the US than in most other countries."
> 
> I saw an interview with a director who shot a film 20+ years ago, and he commented that if he shot it today, all the extras & people in the background would be 300lbs
> 
> The typical North American fast food diet ( Tim Hortons, anyone? ) & sedentary lifestyle is really unhealthy


It's not just fast food though...there's also all the sugar added to almost any processed or packaged food you buy. High fructose corn sugar is added to almost everything. Most breads have it added.


----------



## allthumbs56

tomee2 said:


> It's not just fast food though...there's also all the sugar added to almost any processed or packaged food you buy. High fructose corn sugar is added to almost everything. Most breads have it added.


A vicious see-saw?

Our population is older because we live longer because our living conditions and healthcare are better. The older you are - the more covid can hurt/kill you. So pick yer poison - die young from something other than covid or die older from covid.


----------



## Midnight Rider

2manyGuitars said:


> I’m not sure yet what my thoughts are on a tax or penalty for unvaccinated COVID patients but I do know one thing…
> 
> Big Macs aren’t contagious.


No,...they are a junk food addiction which cause health issues,... which in turn may cause visits to the hospital due coronary heart disease and Type 2 Diabetes. A self inflicted disease due to freedom of choice,... which also takes up time and space in hospitals across the globe.

Here’s How Fast Food Can Affect Your Body

Fast food intake increases risk of diabetes and heart disease in Singapore
"The latest research, published online July 2 by the American Heart Association's journal _Circulation_, found that people who consume fast food even once a week increase their risk of dying from coronary heart disease by 20 percent in comparison to people who avoid fast food. For people eating fast food two-three times each week, the risk increases by 50 percent, and the risk climbs to nearly 80 percent for people who consume fast food items four or more times each week.

Eating fast food two or more times a week was also found to increase the risk of developing Type 2 diabetes by 27 percent."


----------



## Midnight Rider

Wardo said:


> For the best protection you need to oil your nose hairs too.


Done!


----------



## RJP110

tomee2 said:


> It's not just fast food though...there's also all the sugar added to almost any processed or packaged food you buy. High fructose corn sugar is added to almost everything. Most breads have it added.


This! It’s not a matter of “If” you get Covid, it’s “When”. Especially with it now widely recognized as airborne. With omicron, masking, vaccination and social distancing have really little to no impact on transmission…..unless you’re willing to wear an N95 (which to me is ridiculous in day to day life). Your best defence is to lower your risk when you meet the virus. Lose weight, vaccinate those at risk, manage your chronic medical conditions.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Midnight Rider said:


> No,...they are a junk food addiction which cause health issues,... which in turn may cause visits to the hospital due coronary heart disease and Type 2 Diabetes. A self inflicted disease due to freedom of choice,... which also takes up time and space in hospitals across the globe.
> 
> Here’s How Fast Food Can Affect Your Body
> 
> Fast food intake increases risk of diabetes and heart disease in Singapore
> "The latest research, published online July 2 by the American Heart Association's journal _Circulation_, found that people who consume fast food even once a week increase their risk of dying from coronary heart disease by 20 percent in comparison to people who avoid fast food. For people eating fast food two-three times each week, the risk increases by 50 percent, and the risk climbs to nearly 80 percent for people who consume fast food items four or more times each week.
> 
> Eating fast food two or more times a week was also found to increase the risk of developing Type 2 diabetes by 27 percent."


Yes, I’m well aware that Big Macs (and other junk foods) can cause a myriad of health issues. But (and again, I’ll say right off the bat that I currently up in the air regarding the vaxx-tax) junk food, smoking, drug use, and many other unhealthy lifestyle choices affect only the user to a large extent. An unvaccinated person will likely infect multiple people by the time their symptoms are bad enough to land them in the hospital.


----------



## RJP110

2manyGuitars said:


> Yes, I’m well aware that Big Macs (and other junk foods) can cause a myriad of health issues. But (and again, I’ll say right off the bat that I currently up in the air regarding the vaxx-tax) junk food, smoking, drug use, and many other unhealthy lifestyle choices affect only the user to a large extent. An unvaccinated person will likely infect multiple people by the time their symptoms are bad enough to land them in the hospital.


The latest data on omicron actually shows little to no difference in transmission between vaccinated or not. This was true of the delta variant as well. And in contrast there’s multiple studies showing that obese individuals shed Covid on average of 42% longer than leaner people. So actually those that undertake those unhealthy choices are much more of a risk to others than someone not Covid vaccinated.








Omicron Variant: What You Need to Know


CDC is monitoring this new variant of the virus that causes COVID-19.




www.cdc.gov


----------



## mhammer

RJP110 said:


> This! It’s not a matter of “If” you get Covid, it’s “When”. Especially with it now widely recognized as airborne. With omicron, masking, vaccination and social distancing have really little to no impact on transmission…..unless you’re willing to wear an N95 (which to me is ridiculous in day to day life). Your best defence is to lower your risk when you meet the virus. Lose weight, vaccinate those at risk, manage your chronic medical conditions.


That's a bit of an overstatement. Masking, vaccination, and distancing DO have an impact on transmission. As much as what we were facing a year or two ago? Probably not, because Omicron is more transmissible. But it is absolutely irresponsible to tell people none of those things matter.

You work in a hospital from what I remember. Are you saying that none of the staff should bother wearing masks?

And yes,* type* of mask matters. The most common types - including what I normally wear - are to prevent _*expelling*_ viral load. If people keep their moist breath to themselves, there's nothing for others to inhale. Prevention of inhalation of what _migh_t be in the air requires more than such simple cloth masks (mine has a coffee filter inserted between the layers). And as Peter Juni keeps saying, it's not just the_ type_ of mask, but the nature of the fit and how one wears it. Even an N99 mask won't help you if it does not fit snugly and provides "service entrances" for particulate matter floating around.

Weight loss is great advice for 2025. Not particularly useful for 2022. The best advice is to keep one's goddamn virus to oneself and do what you can to not pass it on to others. If there's no one to catch it from, and less means to catch it from those who might have it, then there's no more reason to be sick.

But apparently social responsibility is, like, soooo 2019.


----------



## mhammer

RJP110 said:


> The latest data on omicron actually shows little to no difference in transmission between vaccinated or not. This was true of the delta variant as well.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Omicron Variant: What You Need to Know
> 
> 
> CDC is monitoring this new variant of the virus that causes COVID-19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.cdc.gov


From that same CDC report: "The recent emergence of Omicron further emphasizes the importance of vaccination and boosters.

Masks offer protection against all variants.

CDC continues to recommend wearing a mask in public indoor settings in areas of substantial or high community transmission, regardless of vaccination status.
CDC provides advice about masks for people who want to learn more about what type of mask is right for them depending on their circumstances."


----------



## RJP110

mhammer said:


> That's a bit of an overstatement. Masking, vaccination, and distancing DO have an impact on transmission. As much as what we were facing a year or two ago? Probably not, because Omicron is more transmissible. But it is absolutely irresponsible to tell people none of those things matter.
> 
> You work in a hospital from what I remember. Are you saying that none of the staff should bother wearing masks?
> 
> And yes,* type* of mask matters. The most common types - including what I normally wear - are to prevent _*expelling*_ viral load. If people keep their moist breath to themselves, there's nothing for others to inhale. Prevention of inhalation of what _migh_t be in the air requires more than such simple cloth masks (mine has a coffee filter inserted between the layers). And as Peter Juni keeps saying, it's not just the_ type_ of mask, but the nature of the fit and how one wears it. Even an N99 mask won't help you if it does not fit snugly and provides "service entrances" for particulate matter floating around.
> 
> Weight loss is great advice for 2025. Not particularly useful for 2022. The best advice is to keep one's goddamn virus to oneself and do what you can to not pass it on to others. If there's no one to catch it from, and less means to catch it from those who might have it, then there's no more reason to be sick.
> 
> But apparently social responsibility is, like, soooo 2019.


implementing global mask mandates for the general public to curb transmission vs using masks in a hospital are VERY different. Just one example is that a surgical mask needs to be changed at a minimum of every 2 hours to be effective as well as not be harmful to the wearer due to accumulation of bacteria. I don’t know about your experience but most non hospital personnel I know wear the same mask all day…if not longer.
And even then, many hospitals are changing recommendations to use an N95 now with all suspected CV19 cases based on the info that omicron IS airborne (previously we only used N95s with CV+ patients that were receiving AGMPs. So even in the hospital the use of a surgical mask is being questioned.

And no, vaccination protects you from severe disease. It really doesn’t do much for transmission with omicron. The recommendation for a booster is based on symptom severity vs transmission.


----------



## Doug Gifford

This changes everything!!!








Face masks make people look more attractive, study finds


Images of men wearing a blue medical face mask perceived as being the most attractive




www.theguardian.com


----------



## mhammer

RJP110 said:


> implementing global mask mandates to the public to stop transmission vs using masks in a hospital are VERY different. And no, vaccination protects you from severe disease. It really doesn’t do much for transmission with omicron. _The recommendation for a booster is based on symptom severity vs transmission._


Currently. The booster we all lined up for over the past month was for everyone 12 and up. Places that are suggesting 4th doses are focussing on immune-compromised and some other high-risk groups. But #3 was for everybody, just like #2 was, simply because active immune response wanes over time in both "healthy" and "unhealthy" people.

Mask mandates everywhere are important. If I'm asymptomatic or presymptomatic and go grocery shopping, there's a damn good reason why I *should* be wearing a mask. Will it protect me from people who can't be bothered to be socially responsible? Unfortunately, no. But it prevents me from giving someone else what I might be carrying - the very basis of contagion and pandemics. I don't let doors slam in the face of other people, and I don't spread my virus around. In a hospital setting, there are enough pathogens of many types floating around that staff depend on better quality masks to prevent inhaling those pathogens. In a grocery store, it's a question of patrons expelling virus. Masks are important in both contexts with circumstantial twists to their type and purpose.

You should know there is a big difference between being infected with a pathogen that one quickly and successfully fights it off, and being infected with more than you're able to fight off. NO vaccine of any sort is any sort of invisible force-field around you that prevents a pathogen from finding its way into your body. What they do is drastically improve your body's ability to beat the crap out of the pathogen quickly and fully enough that one does not get the full-blown illness that pathogen is capable of producing.

As has been repeatedly noted by those following this thing, it's not so much that Omicron is intrinsically less deadly - people ARE dying from it. Rather, we are a whole helluva lot more vaccinated, as a population, than we were a year ago, so we're not getting hit as hard. That is precisely why the unvaccinated are disproportionately showing up in the ER and requiring hospitalization.

One of the things drummed into us in grad school was that often what one observes is a function of *when* you measure, not just what you measure. The world and circumstances/context change, most phenomena are a function of context. Omicron is certainly part of the context, but it also emerged _within_ a different context. We shouldn't forget that.


----------



## Midnight Rider

laristotle said:


> Top scientists believed COVID leaked from Wuhan lab but feared going public: Emails
> 
> 
> The newly unredacted emails show that by February 2, 2020, scientists were already trying to shut down the debate into the laboratory leak theory
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nationalpost.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _An email from Sir Jeremy Farrar, director of the Wellcome Trust, on February 2 2020 said that “a likely explanation” was that COVID had rapidly evolved from a SARS-like virus inside human tissue in a low-security lab.
> 
> The email, to Dr. Anthony Fauci and Dr. Francis Collins of the U.S. National Institutes of Health, went on to say that such evolution may have “accidentally created a virus primed for rapid transmission between humans.”
> 
> But a leading scientist told Farrar that “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular.” Collins, the former director of the U.S. National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony.”
> 
> Viscount Ridley, co-author of Viral: the search for the origin of COVID, said: “These emails show a lamentable lack of openness and transparency among Western scientists who appear to have been more interested in shutting down a hypothesis they thought was very plausible, for political reasons.”_


Starting to smell more and more like gain of function research.

*Fauci, Walensky testify at Senate hearing - *January 11, 2022.
Fiery exchange between Senator DR.Rand Paul and DR.Anthony Fauci starts at 1*:02:19*
WATCH: Fauci, Walensky testify in tense Senate hearing on the federal response to new COVID-19 variants

*Coronavirus: Was US money used to fund risky research in China? *
August 2021 ://www.bbc.com/news/57932699


----------



## ZeroGravity

Ontario woman with Stage 4 colon cancer has life-saving surgery postponed indefinitely


A 30-year-old Ontario woman diagnosed with Stage 4 colon cancer has had her surgery postponed indefinitely and says it could be too late to save her if the procedure keeps getting pushed back.




toronto.ctvnews.ca


----------



## RJP110

mhammer said:


> Currently. The booster we all lined up for over the past month was for everyone 12 and up. Places that are suggesting 4th doses are focussing on immune-compromised and some other high-risk groups. But #3 was for everybody, just like #2 was, simply because active immune response wanes over time in both "healthy" and "unhealthy" people.
> 
> Mask mandates everywhere are important. If I'm asymptomatic or presymptomatic and go grocery shopping, there's a damn good reason why I *should* be wearing a mask. Will it protect me from people who can't be bothered to be socially responsible? Unfortunately, no. But it prevents me from giving someone else what I might be carrying - the very basis of contagion and pandemics. I don't let doors slam in the face of other people, and I don't spread my virus around. In a hospital setting, there are enough pathogens of many types floating around that staff depend on better quality masks to prevent inhaling those pathogens. In a grocery store, it's a question of patrons expelling virus. Masks are important in both contexts with circumstantial twists to their type and purpose.
> 
> You should know there is a big difference between being infected with a pathogen that one quickly and successfully fights it off, and being infected with more than you're able to fight off. NO vaccine of any sort is any sort of invisible force-field around you that prevents a pathogen from finding its way into your body. What they do is drastically improve your body's ability to beat the crap out of the pathogen quickly and fully enough that one does not get the full-blown illness that pathogen is capable of producing.
> 
> As has been repeatedly noted by those following this thing, it's not so much that Omicron is intrinsically less deadly - people ARE dying from it. Rather, we are a whole helluva lot more vaccinated, as a population, than we were a year ago, so we're not getting hit as hard. That is precisely why the unvaccinated are disproportionately showing up in the ER and requiring hospitalization.
> 
> One of the things drummed into us in grad school was that often what one observes is a function of *when* you measure, not just what you measure. The world and circumstances/context change, most phenomena are a function of context. Omicron is certainly part of the context, but it also emerged _within_ a different context. We shouldn't forget that.


“You should know there is a big difference between being infected with a pathogen that one quickly and successfully fights it off, and being infected with more than you're able to fight off. NO vaccine of any sort is any sort of invisible force-field around you that prevents a pathogen from finding its way into your body. What they do is drastically improve your body's ability to beat the crap out of the pathogen quickly and fully enough that one does not get the full-blown illness that pathogen is capable of producing.”

Yes, I do know this. Did I say that this vaccine is an invisible force field? Nope. I’m pretty sure I’ve always stated the vaccine has benefits for reduction of symptom severity.

“As has been repeatedly noted by those following this thing, it's not so much that Omicron is intrinsically less deadly - people ARE dying from it. Rather, we are a whole helluva lot more vaccinated, as a population, than we were a year ago, so we're not getting hit as hard. That is precisely why the unvaccinated are disproportionately showing up in the ER and requiring hospitalization.”
Also, I don’t think I’ve ever brought the impact of Omicron into question. I’ve seen first hand the impact on just our staffing in the hospital.

“Omicron is certainly part of the context, but it also emerged _within_ a different context. We shouldn't forget that.”
Agreed. All I’m saying is that although this is still Covid it’s naive to think that it can be handled the same way as CV 2020

“If I'm asymptomatic or presymptomatic and go grocery shopping, there's a damn good reason why I should be wearing a mask. Will it protect me from people who can't be bothered to be socially responsible? Unfortunately, no. But it prevents me from giving someone else what I might be carrying”

I guess by this logic you will need to wear one in public seasonally the rest of your life as influenza has a 50% asymptomatic rate and Covid is arguably endemic with no end in site.


----------



## Midnight Rider

RJP110 said:


> And even then, many hospitals are changing recommendations to use an N95 now with all suspected CV19 cases based on the info that omicron IS airborne (previously we only used N95s with CV+ patients that were receiving AGMPs. So even in the hospital the use of a surgical mask is being questioned.


It is stunning and worrisome that the health care organization leaders and political leaders did not immediately recognize that an N,R or P NIOSH certified 95, 99 or 100 masks would have been the optimal choice for trying to control transmission of the virus right from the beginning or within a few months of the pandemic.

Every civvy globally should have had access to these masks as well.

People should be fired,... period.


----------



## laristotle

Midnight Rider said:


> People should be fired,... period.


Maybe start with the person that sent all that PPE to China at the beginning of all this?


----------



## Wardo

ZeroGravity said:


> Ontario woman with Stage 4 colon cancer has life-saving surgery postponed indefinitely
> 
> 
> A 30-year-old Ontario woman diagnosed with Stage 4 colon cancer has had her surgery postponed indefinitely and says it could be too late to save her if the procedure keeps getting pushed back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.ctvnews.ca


But they pledge 100 billion for wealth transfere green scam iniatives in developing countries.


----------



## RJP110

Midnight Rider said:


> It is stunning and worrisome that the health care organizations and political leaders did not immediately recognize that an N,R or P NIOSH certified 95, 99 or 100 mask would have been the optimal choice for trying to control transmission of the virus right for the beginning or within a few months of the pandemic.
> 
> People should be fired,... period.


Oh boy. Don’t get me started. I recognize there are issues with N95s needing to be fit tested etc. But At the very least this info should have been shared. But instead it was literally labeled as misinformation


----------



## Wardo

Midnight Rider said:


> Starting to smell more and more like gain of function research.


I thought it was gain of function early on. Before covid I'd read something about concerns over the integrity of the Level 4 Wazoo Lab and gain of function. A few months into covid there was something from MI6 about the virus not looking natural. I don't know shit about this science stuff but (1) they can't resist messing with things like gain of function and (2) they will lie and do everything possible to cover it up when shit goes wrong. Intersting that the canadian government doesn't want to release information about their involvement regarding the lab in Winnipeg - whatever it is it ain't gonna make them look good so bury it and commence proceedings against the speaker of the commons to shut him up.


----------



## laristotle

*


----------



## mhammer

RJP110 said:


> “You should know there is a big difference between being infected with a pathogen that one quickly and successfully fights it off, and being infected with more than you're able to fight off. NO vaccine of any sort is any sort of invisible force-field around you that prevents a pathogen from finding its way into your body. What they do is drastically improve your body's ability to beat the crap out of the pathogen quickly and fully enough that one does not get the full-blown illness that pathogen is capable of producing.”
> 
> Yes, I do know this. Did I say that this vaccine is an invisible force field? Nope. I’m pretty sure I’ve always stated the vaccine has benefits for reduction of symptom severity.
> 
> “As has been repeatedly noted by those following this thing, it's not so much that Omicron is intrinsically less deadly - people ARE dying from it. Rather, we are a whole helluva lot more vaccinated, as a population, than we were a year ago, so we're not getting hit as hard. That is precisely why the unvaccinated are disproportionately showing up in the ER and requiring hospitalization.”
> Also, I don’t think I’ve ever brought the impact of Omicron into question. I’ve seen first hand the impact on just our staffing in the hospital.
> 
> “Omicron is certainly part of the context, but it also emerged _within_ a different context. We shouldn't forget that.”
> Agreed. All I’m saying is that although this is still Covid it’s naive to think that it can be handled the same way as CV 2020
> 
> “If I'm asymptomatic or presymptomatic and go grocery shopping, there's a damn good reason why I should be wearing a mask. Will it protect me from people who can't be bothered to be socially responsible? Unfortunately, no. But it prevents me from giving someone else what I might be carrying”
> 
> I guess by this logic you will need to wear one in public seasonally the rest of your life as influenza has a 50% asymptomatic rate and Covid is arguably endemic with no end in site.


1) Work on your phrasing, because this post reads a LOT more sensibly and even-handed than the one I was responding to.

2) Said it before, and I'll say it again, I'll be masking and distancing until the case-count drops to something we'd be comfortable with if it was malaria, polio, measles, tuberculosis, etc. Al of those are "endemic", but there are so few people to catch them from that we can relax and not worry about taking any special preventative measures. Endemic isn't awful or terrifying. It just means something hasn't been wiped off the face of the earth for good. You CAN still get it, but the likelihood is slim, and often slim enough that attending physicians might miss it unless it has very distinctive symptoms. We still have SARS and MERS, but when was the last time you were worried about catching it from someone? So Covid-19 CAN potentially become like that. However, it will require a collective effort and cooperation from all to produce that. The strenuousness of my own posts and objections is prompted by the suggestion from many sources (not just here, but including here) that a cooperative effort is not required, and that it's somehow somebody else's job and there's no value in helping out. That's kinda why we are where we are 2 years later.


----------



## laristotle

mhammer said:


> That's kinda why we are where we are 2 years later.


It's still the Me, Me, Me generation. That's why.


----------



## RJP110

mhammer said:


> 1) Work on your phrasing, because this post reads a LOT more sensibly and even-handed than the one I was responding to.
> 
> 2) Said it before, and I'll say it again, I'll be masking and distancing until the case-count drops to something we'd be comfortable with if it was malaria, polio, measles, tuberculosis, etc. Al of those are "endemic", but there are so few people to catch them from that we can relax and not worry about taking any special preventative measures. Endemic isn't awful or terrifying. It just means something hasn't been wiped off the face of the earth for good. You CAN still get it, but the likelihood is slim, and often slim enough that attending physicians might miss it unless it has very distinctive symptoms. We still have SARS and MERS, but when was the last time you were worried about catching it from someone? So Covid-19 CAN potentially become like that. However, it will require a collective effort and cooperation from all to produce that. The strenuousness of my own posts and objections is prompted by the suggestion from many sources (not just here, but including here) that a cooperative effort is not required, and that it's somehow somebody else's job and there's no value in helping out. That's kinda why we are where we are 2 years later.


Well, I’m on an iPhone. The UI is difficult to type on and correct mistakes etc. That being said, I do feel my messaging was still pretty clear.

I respect that but disagree (and that’s totally your prerogative!) I will do my part around focussed protection for the vulnerable (masking at work, rapid testing etc). My stance is that if you’re vaccinated, get on with your life. And if you are at risk, then take precautions. I feel we need to strike a balance between protecting those that truly need it and getting back some semblance of normality.
I don’t view this as being socially irresponsible. In fact, quite the opposite. There are such vast differences in public health measures across the world and the outcomes really end up the same. This virus will ebb and flow in its natural course no matter what we do. But draconian public health measures (I’m not not necessarily saying masking is one of these ….for adults!) have a far greater impact on causing long lasting public health issues.

The comparison of CV to Malaria, Measles and polio is not very accurate. For one, measles/polio vaccines DO prevent transmission and not only decrease symptoms but eradicate disease. The CV vaccine does neither. Also, neither measles nor polio have animal reservoirs and SARS COV2 does. Malaria although highly contagious has very efficient treatment. So it’s unlikely CV will ever follow the trajectory of these three. SARS and MERS have an R0 of about 3 where as omicron is 7. And unfortunately (or fortunately depending on how you look at it) their severity is much more severe so people became severely ill before they could spread to others. Apples to pomegranates


----------



## Midnight Rider

ZeroGravity said:


> Ontario woman with Stage 4 colon cancer has life-saving surgery postponed indefinitely
> 
> 
> A 30-year-old Ontario woman diagnosed with Stage 4 colon cancer has had her surgery postponed indefinitely and says it could be too late to save her if the procedure keeps getting pushed back.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> toronto.ctvnews.ca


My advice would be to take the financial hit and go to the US if you want to save your life. I did the same in 2007 and if I hadn't I would have surely been 6 feet under long ago.

Yes, this health care system of ours has been slowly declining well before the arrival of Covid as most of you are aware of.

The question is,... what are we as tax paying citizens going to do about it? What measures do we take to get the attention of the government officials to rectify the situation? I believe every tax paying Canadian citizen contributes $4,000 annually into our socialized medical system. Perhaps it is time for a private healthcare option for those who are willing to pay for better and more timely treatments,... I'll be first in line to pay the premium,... beats paying $4,000/year to have the door shut in your face.

There is a form you can have your health care professionals fill out explaining your medical situation that may allow for treatment outside of Canada which will be covered.


----------



## allthumbs56

Regarding masks and social distancing, I watched the last two Leaf games (Las Vegas and Arizona). I couldn't believe how almost all of the crowd were not wearing masks. Meanwhile in Canada we won't let a single fan in the rink. According to Worldometer, the US is counting very close to a million new cases a day. The differences between the US and Canada are staggering.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

allthumbs56 said:


> The differences between the US and Canada are staggering.



And yet the US is advising their citizens to not travel to Canada. Perhaps they don't want them influenced?


----------



## 2manyGuitars

mhammer said:


> The strenuousness of my own posts and objections is prompted by the suggestion from many sources (not just here, but including here) that a cooperative effort is not required, and that it's somehow somebody else's job and there's no value in helping out. That's kinda why we are where we are 2 years later.


I keep having little experiences that just hammer home how doomed we are if we're relying on common sense to help get this sort of thing under control.

Last Friday, I spent around 6 hours in the Emergency Room at the Ottawa General Hospital. It was completely un-COVID related and it was something I was hoping to ride out until a more opportune time. After a phone call with my doctor and an X-ray the next day, I talked to tele-health Ontario later in the week and at the end of the 20 minute consult, the recommendation was "don't eat or drink anything, lie down until you can see a doctor and it should be in the next 4 hours." The choices were my doctor (good luck at 4pm on a Friday), a walk-in (all the ones by me were doing phone calls), and as a last resort, the ER. I _REALLY_ didn't want to go into an ER but it was the only option.

Just to re-cap the hospital experience for those curious to know how it is currently...

I spent about 2.5 hours in the main waiting area, about an hour in the private exam room waiting for the doctor, a 15 minute exam, and off to a mini waiting room (about 5 or 6 people sitting 6 feet apart) to await a blood draw and a CT scan.
I only spent maybe 5 minutes in there before they sent me off to radiology where there were only 3 other people for CT scans. I had my own waiting area. About 20 minutes and I was done.
Back to the mini waiting room where less than 5 minutes later, they bring me out to do the bloodwork. Now, I've never reacted to a needle, medical procedure, anything, in my life. Sometimes, when I go to the dentist, I don't even bother with the freezing if it's a short one. Well, the nurse goes to put an I.V. in and misses the mark. She was trying to push it in but it wasn't going. Bless her heart though, she just kept pushing it. Anyhow, told her I wasn't feeling too good so they brought over a stretcher and let me lie down. Said she'd come back and try again in a bit. They wheeled me around the corner to a nice, empty hallway where I chilled for about 30 or 40 minutes.
She comes back, takes my blood and says I can wait there or if I'm feeling better, go back to the waiting room. Screw that! I'm staying here in my private hallway.
Probably an hour later, doctor comes by to go over my results and I'm on my way home.

Now, the 3 things that had me shaking my head...
1) When you go in, there are 2 stops where they ask if you have _any_ COVID symptoms. I believe there's a separate protocol if you do. Well one woman is in the main waiting area with at least 40 people. About every 10 minutes, she erupts into a horrific, hacking, coughing fit that lasts a good couple of minutes. Each time, she gets up, walks through the middle of the waiting room over to the drink machine to get a bottle of water, coughing the whole way there and back. Repeat every 10 minutes.

2) The area I was in had 20 chairs, each one with a plexi shield between them (see photo) with 9 on one side facing 11 on the other. I chose this section (1 of 4) because there were only about a half-dozen people in there, nicely spread out. At one point, there were 3 of us with the closest person sitting about 20 feet away. Some dude walks over and out of 17 empty seats, PLOPS DOWN RIGHT NEXT TO ME!!! If the fucking shield weren't there, we would have been rubbing shoulders. I get up, move to the other side and about 3 chairs down. I said to the guy "Seriously? This side is pretty much empty and you sit in the chair 3 inches from mine?!?"
THEN... he opens his bag of McDonalds, pulls out his burger and fries, takes off his double masks (they give you a second one when you come into the ER), shoves both masks in his pocket and has a little picnic. For FUCKS sakes!!! I went and told the intake guy and they told him put on your masks or GTFO. He GTFO'd.

3) While in my "cubby", waiting for the doctor I could overhear the patient next door. I never saw her but I'd say she was an older woman in her 50s or 60s. I don't know what she said to get that far, but basically, there was nothing wrong in particular. As the doctor is questioning her, trying to figure out exactly why she's there, she mentions a couple minor things and how she was meaning to get in to see her doctor but could he just check her out? He flat out asks her "So you came to the ER for a check up?". She said yes. His reply was waaay more polite than I would have been.

With all the shit going on, the last place I wanted to be was the hospital and especially the ER. Not only because I was horrified at sitting in a room for hours with sick people, but also because the last thing the doctors need right now is more work. I both thanked and apologized to the doctors and nurses and told them that if I hadn't been expressly told "get to a doctor in the next 4 hours" and tried every other option, I wouldn't have come. They were super nice and helpful. I still can't get over some of the shit people are still doing though. There was other stuff too but these 3 stood out.

EDIT:Forgot the waiting room photo...


----------



## mhammer

I shouldn't laugh, but you've described Friday night in Emerg at pretty much 80% of all hospitals.

And ain't it strange and a little puzzling that so many men's washrooms in stores have urinals taped off so no one pisses too close to anyone else, but in a *hospital* some guy is munching away maskless so close to you.

I had a similar experience last fall or thereabouts, in the pre-Omicron days, at the Queensway-Carleton. My sympathies. Hope whatever you went there for is on the mend. And a big tip of the hat to the folks working in the ER. In TV shows it looks exciiting. But that's only an hour. I'm sure it's much less exciting 10hrs into a 12hr shift. Coffee can be magic, but it ain't THAT magic.


----------



## Choo5440

2manyGuitars said:


> I keep having little experiences that just hammer home how doomed we are if we're relying on common sense to help get this sort of thing under control.
> 
> Last Friday, I spent around 6 hours in the Emergency Room at the Ottawa General Hospital. It was completely un-COVID related and it was something I was hoping to ride out until a more opportune time. After a phone call with my doctor and an X-ray the next day, I talked to tele-health Ontario later in the week and at the end of the 20 minute consult, the recommendation was "don't eat or drink anything, lie down until you can see a doctor and it should be in the next 4 hours." The choices were my doctor (good luck at 4pm on a Friday), a walk-in (all the ones by me were doing phone calls), and as a last resort, the ER. I _REALLY_ didn't want to go into an ER but it was the only option.
> 
> Just to re-cap the hospital experience for those curious to know how it is currently...
> 
> I spent about 2.5 hours in the main waiting area, about an hour in the private exam room waiting for the doctor, a 15 minute exam, and off to a mini waiting room (about 5 or 6 people sitting 6 feet apart) to await a blood draw and a CT scan.
> I only spent maybe 5 minutes in there before they sent me off to radiology where there were only 3 other people for CT scans. I had my own waiting area. About 20 minutes and I was done.
> Back to the mini waiting room where less than 5 minutes later, they bring me out to do the bloodwork. Now, I've never reacted to a needle, medical procedure, anything, in my life. Sometimes, when I go to the dentist, I don't even bother with the freezing if it's a short one. Well, the nurse goes to put an I.V. in and misses the mark. She was trying to push it in but it wasn't going. Bless her heart though, she just kept pushing it. Anyhow, told her I wasn't feeling too good so they brought over a stretcher and let me lie down. Said she'd come back and try again in a bit. They wheeled me around the corner to a nice, empty hallway where I chilled for about 30 or 40 minutes.
> She comes back, takes my blood and says I can wait there or if I'm feeling better, go back to the waiting room. Screw that! I'm staying here in my private hallway.
> Probably an hour later, doctor comes by to go over my results and I'm on my way home.
> 
> Now, the 3 things that had me shaking my head...
> 1) When you go in, there are 2 stops where they ask if you have _any_ COVID symptoms. I believe there's a separate protocol if you do. Well one woman is in the main waiting area with at least 40 people. About every 10 minutes, she erupts into a horrific, hacking, coughing fit that lasts a good couple of minutes. Each time, she gets up, walks through the middle of the waiting room over to the drink machine to get a bottle of water, coughing the whole way there and back. Repeat every 10 minutes.
> 
> 2) The area I was in had 20 chairs, each one with a plexi shield between them (see photo) with 9 on one side facing 11 on the other. I chose this section (1 of 4) because there were only about a half-dozen people in there, nicely spread out. At one point, there were 3 of us with the closest person sitting about 20 feet away. Some dude walks over and out of 17 empty seats, PLOPS DOWN RIGHT NEXT TO ME!!! If the fucking shield weren't there, we would have been rubbing shoulders. I get up, move to the other side and about 3 chairs down. I said to the guy "Seriously? This side is pretty much empty and you sit in the chair 3 inches from mine?!?"
> THEN... he opens his bag of McDonalds, pulls out his burger and fries, takes off his double masks (they give you a second one when you come into the ER), shoves both masks in his pocket and has a little picnic. For FUCKS sakes!!! I went and told the intake guy and they told him put on your masks or GTFO. He GTFO'd.
> 
> 3) While in my "cubby", waiting for the doctor I could overhear the patient next door. I never saw her but I'd say she was an older woman in her 50s or 60s. I don't know what she said to get that far, but basically, there was nothing wrong in particular. As the doctor is questioning her, trying to figure out exactly why she's there, she mentions a couple minor things and how she was meaning to get in to see her doctor but could he just check her out? He flat out asks her "So you came to the ER for a check up?". She said yes. His reply was waaay more polite than I would have been.
> 
> With all the shit going on, the last place I wanted to be was the hospital and especially the ER. Not only because I was horrified at sitting in a room for hours with sick people, but also because the last thing the doctors need right now is more work. I both thanked and apologized to the doctors and nurses and told them that if I hadn't been expressly told "get to a doctor in the next 4 hours" and tried every other option, I wouldn't have come. They were super nice and helpful. I still can't get over some of the shit people are still doing though. There was other stuff too but these 3 stood out.
> 
> EDIT:Forgot the waiting room photo...
> View attachment 397478


I'm jealous. when I went to Toronto Western Hospital last week, there must have been someone sitting pretty much every other seat, others waiting in wheelchairs, and even a few people on stretchers. Then there were the tertiary people hanging around - EMS workers, police and the occasional family member. 
Even once in the emergency section itself, I was lucky and warranted a bed. There were chairs every 10m or so for 'hallway' medicine. 

I'm glad that you were able to get through relatively painlessly, and hope you get well soon


----------



## Wardo

I wonder if the fact that someone cannot get treatment in this non-nation state for stage four cancer will resonate to any degree with the Muggles or will it just pass through the news cycle and be forgotten in a day or two.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

Choo5440 said:


> I'm jealous. when I went to Toronto Western Hospital last week, there must have been someone sitting pretty much every other seat, others waiting in wheelchairs, and even a few people on stretchers. Then there were the tertiary people hanging around - EMS workers, police and the occasional family member.
> Even once in the emergency section itself, I was lucky and warranted a bed. There were chairs every 10m or so for 'hallway' medicine.
> 
> I'm glad that you were able to get through relatively painlessly, and hope you get well soon


That’s what’s weird. You go down the hall and stop at the desk to get into the ER. The area extends back and to the left. The right wall is lined with temporary chairs, maybe a dozen, all full. To the left is the permanent waiting area with one row of those grey seats in my photo, facing out. Behind that are two more rows, facing each other and behind that is one more set of rows, also face to face. That last row is the far left wall.

Like I said, the temp chairs were full as was that first row on the left. The middle section was at least every second seat with some even side-by-side (that’s where hacking/coughing lady was BTW). By the time you got to the third area where I was sitting there was almost no one. It’s like people gave up and didn’t want to walk the extra 8 feet.


----------



## tomee2

Wardo said:


> I wonder if the fact that someone cannot get treatment in this non-nation state for stage four cancer will resonate to any degree with the Muggles or will it just pass through the news cycle and be forgotten in a day or two.


No kidding. It's terrible!


----------



## Midnight Rider

Interesting data on the history of pandemics.
Visualizing the History of Pandemics









NameTime periodType / Pre-human hostDeath tollAntonine Plague165-180Believed to be either smallpox or measles5MJapanese smallpox epidemic735-737Variola major virus1MPlague of Justinian541-542Yersinia pestis bacteria / Rats, fleas30-50MBlack Death1347-1351Yersinia pestis bacteria / Rats, fleas200MNew World Smallpox Outbreak1520 – onwardsVariola major virus56MGreat Plague of London1665Yersinia pestis bacteria / Rats, fleas100,000Italian plague1629-1631Yersinia pestis bacteria / Rats, fleas1MCholera Pandemics 1-61817-1923V. cholerae bacteria1M+Third Plague1885Yersinia pestis bacteria / Rats, fleas12M (China and India)Yellow FeverLate 1800sVirus / Mosquitoes100,000-150,000 (U.S.)Russian Flu1889-1890Believed to be H2N2 (avian origin)1MSpanish Flu1918-1919H1N1 virus / Pigs40-50MAsian Flu1957-1958H2N2 virus1.1MHong Kong Flu1968-1970H3N2 virus1MHIV/AIDS1981-presentVirus / Chimpanzees25-35MSwine Flu2009-2010H1N1 virus / Pigs200,000SARS2002-2003Coronavirus / Bats, Civets770Ebola2014-2016Ebolavirus / Wild animals11,000MERS2015-PresentCoronavirus / Bats, camels850COVID-192019-PresentCoronavirus – Unknown (possibly pangolins)5.4M (Johns Hopkins University estimate as of December 28, 2021)










"Some of the worst epidemics and pandemics in history have doomed whole civilizations and brought once powerful nations to their knees, killing millions. While these terrible disease outbreaks still threaten humanity, thanks to the advances in epidemiology we no longer face the same dire consequences as our ancestors once did. 

Here are 20 of the worst epidemics and pandemics in history, dating from prehistoric to modern times."
https://www.livescience.com/worst-epidemics-and-pandemics-in-history.html


----------



## Midnight Rider

https://www.livescience.com/spanish-flu.html
"In 1918, a strain of influenza known as Spanish flu caused a global pandemic, spreading rapidly and killing indiscriminately. Young, old, sick and otherwise-healthy people all became infected, and at least 10% of patients died. 

Estimates vary on the exact number of deaths caused by the disease, but it is thought to have infected a third of the world's population and killed at least 50 million people, making it the deadliest pandemic in modern history. Although at the time it gained the nickname "Spanish flu," it's unlikely that the virusoriginated in Spain."


----------



## Midnight Rider

Wardo said:


> I wonder if the fact that someone cannot get treatment in this non-nation state for stage four cancer will resonate to any degree with the Muggles or will it just pass through the news cycle and be forgotten in a day or two.


This is why it is imperative that every Canadian get pissed off, *loud* and voice their opinion to the ones in charge of managing our health care system to once again ensure each citizen if getting the proper return on their investment. 

Apply consistent perpetual pressure in large numbers to the vulnerable areas of politicians and high ranking health care officials,... hit them square in the erection election polls if they continue to fail you. 

Don't ask,... demand they start working for you again,... the way it was originally intended to be.


----------



## Midnight Rider

USA Supreme court ruling stops Joe Biden and OSHA from implementing a vaccine mandate for businesses with 100 or more employees but rules on a mandate for healthcare workers.
Appears Joe Biden could not get a work around of the tenth amendment by using OSHA as an impetus.
Supreme Court Blocks Biden’s Virus Mandate for Large Employers


----------



## player99

Costco N95 masks are cheap in store. Not the super duper best fitting mask, but way better than a 3 ply tissue mask.

Tip: I always straighten out the nose wire then form it to the bridge of my nose.


----------



## zztomato

2manyGuitars said:


> EDIT:Forgot the waiting room photo...


I've heard a few experts say that those plexi barriers may do more harm than good because they inhibit ventilation. Better to have a robust ventilation system to exchange air quickly.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

zztomato said:


> I've heard a few experts say that those plexi barriers may do more harm than good because they inhibit ventilation. Better to have a robust ventilation system to exchange air quickly.


There was a constant blast of air coming straight down on me. Hopefully it was coming out of a HEPA filter.


----------



## allthumbs56

2manyGuitars said:


> I keep having little experiences that just hammer home how doomed we are if we're relying on common sense to help get this sort of thing under control.
> 
> Last Friday, I spent around 6 hours in the Emergency Room at the Ottawa General Hospital. It was completely un-COVID related and it was something I was hoping to ride out until a more opportune time. After a phone call with my doctor and an X-ray the next day, I talked to tele-health Ontario later in the week and at the end of the 20 minute consult, the recommendation was "don't eat or drink anything, lie down until you can see a doctor and it should be in the next 4 hours." The choices were my doctor (good luck at 4pm on a Friday), a walk-in (all the ones by me were doing phone calls), and as a last resort, the ER. I _REALLY_ didn't want to go into an ER but it was the only option.
> 
> Just to re-cap the hospital experience for those curious to know how it is currently...
> 
> I spent about 2.5 hours in the main waiting area, about an hour in the private exam room waiting for the doctor, a 15 minute exam, and off to a mini waiting room (about 5 or 6 people sitting 6 feet apart) to await a blood draw and a CT scan.
> I only spent maybe 5 minutes in there before they sent me off to radiology where there were only 3 other people for CT scans. I had my own waiting area. About 20 minutes and I was done.
> Back to the mini waiting room where less than 5 minutes later, they bring me out to do the bloodwork. Now, I've never reacted to a needle, medical procedure, anything, in my life. Sometimes, when I go to the dentist, I don't even bother with the freezing if it's a short one. Well, the nurse goes to put an I.V. in and misses the mark. She was trying to push it in but it wasn't going. Bless her heart though, she just kept pushing it. Anyhow, told her I wasn't feeling too good so they brought over a stretcher and let me lie down. Said she'd come back and try again in a bit. They wheeled me around the corner to a nice, empty hallway where I chilled for about 30 or 40 minutes.
> She comes back, takes my blood and says I can wait there or if I'm feeling better, go back to the waiting room. Screw that! I'm staying here in my private hallway.
> Probably an hour later, doctor comes by to go over my results and I'm on my way home.
> 
> Now, the 3 things that had me shaking my head...
> 1) When you go in, there are 2 stops where they ask if you have _any_ COVID symptoms. I believe there's a separate protocol if you do. Well one woman is in the main waiting area with at least 40 people. About every 10 minutes, she erupts into a horrific, hacking, coughing fit that lasts a good couple of minutes. Each time, she gets up, walks through the middle of the waiting room over to the drink machine to get a bottle of water, coughing the whole way there and back. Repeat every 10 minutes.
> 
> 2) The area I was in had 20 chairs, each one with a plexi shield between them (see photo) with 9 on one side facing 11 on the other. I chose this section (1 of 4) because there were only about a half-dozen people in there, nicely spread out. At one point, there were 3 of us with the closest person sitting about 20 feet away. Some dude walks over and out of 17 empty seats, PLOPS DOWN RIGHT NEXT TO ME!!! If the fucking shield weren't there, we would have been rubbing shoulders. I get up, move to the other side and about 3 chairs down. I said to the guy "Seriously? This side is pretty much empty and you sit in the chair 3 inches from mine?!?"
> THEN... he opens his bag of McDonalds, pulls out his burger and fries, takes off his double masks (they give you a second one when you come into the ER), shoves both masks in his pocket and has a little picnic. For FUCKS sakes!!! I went and told the intake guy and they told him put on your masks or GTFO. He GTFO'd.
> 
> 3) While in my "cubby", waiting for the doctor I could overhear the patient next door. I never saw her but I'd say she was an older woman in her 50s or 60s. I don't know what she said to get that far, but basically, there was nothing wrong in particular. As the doctor is questioning her, trying to figure out exactly why she's there, she mentions a couple minor things and how she was meaning to get in to see her doctor but could he just check her out? He flat out asks her "So you came to the ER for a check up?". She said yes. His reply was waaay more polite than I would have been.
> 
> With all the shit going on, the last place I wanted to be was the hospital and especially the ER. Not only because I was horrified at sitting in a room for hours with sick people, but also because the last thing the doctors need right now is more work. I both thanked and apologized to the doctors and nurses and told them that if I hadn't been expressly told "get to a doctor in the next 4 hours" and tried every other option, I wouldn't have come. They were super nice and helpful. I still can't get over some of the shit people are still doing though. There was other stuff too but these 3 stood out.
> 
> EDIT:Forgot the waiting room photo...
> View attachment 397478


I've said it before - I wish we could get the same level of care for ourselves as we can get for our pets. I'd gladly pay the hundred bucks each visit.


----------



## zztomato

allthumbs56 said:


> I've said it before - I wish we could get the same level of care for ourselves as we can get for our pets. I'd gladly pay the hundred bucks each visit.


Lol. You wouldn't want to be serviced by the vet I take my dog to. His greatest skill is taking my money.


----------



## ZeroGravity

zztomato said:


> Lol. You wouldn't want to be serviced by the vet I take my dog to. His greatest skill is taking my money.


Our (former) vet's greatest ability was trying to guilt us into treatments for several years for a 18 year-old cat that would in all reality not prolong her life, only generate more treatments for the vet.


----------



## Guitar101

zztomato said:


> Lol. You wouldn't want to be serviced by the vet I take my dog to. His greatest skill is taking my money.


I agree. I paid around $5000 over a period of 2 or 3 years with my vet dealing with a skin issue my dog had. Vet visits, analysis, antibiotics and skin creams etc. over and over. Turned out to be a peanut allergy that I found myself. No more peanuts in the house or in the bird feeders and she's been fine for 4 or 5 years now.

Now back on topic. Darn anti-vaxxers. 😷


----------



## colchar

player99 said:


> Costco N95 masks are cheap in store. Not the super duper best fitting mask, but way better than a 3 ply tissue mask.
> 
> Tip: I always straighten out the nose wire then form it to the bridge of my nose.



Plenty of N95 masks available at Home Depot.


----------



## colchar

2manyGuitars said:


> 3) While in my "cubby", waiting for the doctor I could overhear the patient next door. I never saw her but I'd say she was an older woman in her 50s or 60s. I don't know what she said to get that far, but basically, there was nothing wrong in particular. As the doctor is questioning her, trying to figure out exactly why she's there, she mentions a couple minor things and how she was meaning to get in to see her doctor but could he just check her out? He flat out asks her "So you came to the ER for a check up?". She said yes. His reply was waaay more polite than I would have been.



People like this infuriate me. You see them on the TV news every year during flu season. They go to the ER for the flu or a cold, then moan on the news that they waited eight hours. People like that should be charged a healthcare tax/fee/penalty because they are the root of many of the problems in our system.


----------



## Paul Running

colchar said:


> People like this infuriate me. You see them on the TV news every year during flu season. They go to the ER for the flu or a cold, then moan on the news that they waited eight hours. People like that should be charged a healthcare tax/fee/penalty because they are the root of many of the problems in our system.


Similar to a DoS in the cyber world.


----------



## allthumbs56

colchar said:


> People like this infuriate me. You see them on the TV news every year during flu season. They go to the ER for the flu or a cold, then moan on the news that they waited eight hours. People like that should be charged a healthcare tax/fee/penalty because they are the root of many of the problems in our system.


If they can charge you for the ambulance ride or for parking, I just don't see why an Emergency Fee of $25 or $50 would be so wrong.


----------



## mhammer

colchar said:


> People like this infuriate me. You see them on the TV news every year during flu season. They go to the ER for the flu or a cold, then moan on the news that they waited eight hours. People like that should be charged a healthcare tax/fee/penalty because they are the root of many of the problems in our system.


I find them equally infuriating.

But that said, there are a large number of Canadians who cannot acquire a family doctor, and even walk-in clinics are not taking walk-ins. We *have* a family doctor, and my "checkups" for the last 2 years have been phone calls that rely on ME to spot and report emerging issues, not someone trained in spotting symptoms. 

People who live alone, may have no one to offer an informal assessment of "It's nothing to worry about. Go to sleep earlier tonight and I'll do the dishes." or "Maybe you don't want to plug up the system right now". Are they annoying? You betcha. Any MORE annoying than the person two customers ahead of you trying to exert a price-match at the supermarket with a wrinkled flyer from 2 weeks ago? Not really. But certainly at the present time, more problematic. 

Hats off to the doctor who handled it with aplomb. The biblical Job has much to learn from the patience of folks working in Emergency these days.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

mhammer said:


> I find them equally infuriating.
> 
> But that said, there are a large number of Canadians who cannot acquire a family doctor, and even walk-in clinics are not taking walk-ins. We *have* a family doctor, and my "checkups" for the last 2 years have been phone calls that rely on ME to spot and report emerging issues, not someone trained in spotting symptoms.
> 
> People who live alone, may have no one to offer an informal assessment of "It's nothing to worry about. Go to sleep earlier tonight and I'll do the dishes." or "Maybe you don't want to plug up the system right now". Are they annoying? You betcha. Any MORE annoying than the person two customers ahead of you trying to exert a price-match at the supermarket with a wrinkled flyer from 2 weeks ago? Not really. But certainly at the present time, more problematic.
> 
> Hats off to the doctor who handled it with aplomb. The biblical Job has much to learn from the patience of folks working in Emergency these days.


In this case, the woman mentioned her family doctor more than once but yes, there are those that go there because of a lack of options.


----------



## colchar

allthumbs56 said:


> If they can charge you for the ambulance ride or for parking, I just don't see why an Emergency Fee of $25 or $50 would be so wrong.


Agreed.

Granted that would mean that we would also have to listen to them whine about the fee when interviewed on the news, but at least the fuckers would have to pay.


----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> I find them equally infuriating.
> 
> But that said, there are a large number of Canadians who cannot acquire a family doctor, and even walk-in clinics are not taking walk-ins. We *have* a family doctor, and my "checkups" for the last 2 years have been phone calls that rely on ME to spot and report emerging issues, not someone trained in spotting symptoms.



This issue long predates Covid. They could go to a walk-in clinic but going to hospital means they can then seek attention from people they know as they relate the story of having to go to the hospital.


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## allthumbs56

The vaccination numbers here in Niagara this past week, if they are to be believed, are telling an interesting story. For the past 6 days they have delivered more first jabs TO ADULTS than 2nd jabs or to kids. I don't know if some of the "fence-sitters" have been prompted by the talk of mandates or if some are finally "getting around to it", but it's great to see.


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## Jim DaddyO

We are desperately understaffed for health care here. Retirements have led us for the need of more doctors...we got 1. The Drs. here are working their hearts out as are nurses and other health care worker as they are so short staffed. The latest Dr. is one who grew up in the area and loves it because...well...it's north Ontario. It's beautiful up here. Right now it's -28C, feels like -40C with the wind chill. No slush anywhere...lol.

‘These guys have my back through anything’: Wawa MD says ‘super-focused’ colleagues crucial when community down 2 doctors


----------



## tomee2

Things are not much better in the US..

From NPR News
ERs are overwhelmed as omicron continues to flood them with patients ERs are overwhelmed as omicron continues to flood them with patients

From Washington Post:


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## mhammer

colchar said:


> This issue long predates Covid. They could go to a walk-in clinic but going to hospital means they can then seek attention from people they know as they relate the story of having to go to the hospital.


I tried going to a walk-in clinic last year, for what eventually turned out to be a not-big-enough-to-require-surgery gallstone. There are two walk-in clinics within walking distance of our home. One was not accepting walk-ins, and the other accepted walk-ins but required early registration. When my slot came around, some 5-6 hours later, I was one of only two people in the building, the other one seeming to be a medical student. She sent me to the hospital, because it was outside of what she was authorized to examine. Again, we _have_ a family doctor (as did the woman who came in for "a checkup") but the sharp and unusual pain began on a day when her office was closed.

Are there malingerers and attention-seekers out in the general populace? Sure. Always have been. But the current circumstances are siphoning anything and everything to hospital ERs, including those who might otherwise be told by a family doctor or walk-in clinic "It's nothing to worry about".

And that is part of what gets my dander up about those who are slack in their compliance with public health measures or dissuade others (intentionally or otherwise) from complying with them. It's an ER almost entirely of our own making.


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## Paul Running

A person could walk into a clinic, ER or hospital and believe that they feel ill, spend a few hours in a virus/bacteria infested environment and walk out in worse shape in the following days because of the exposure. Grin and bear it, might work better for you.


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## laristotle

My biggest gripe (and my doctor's) was when I'd be home sick from work and the company would demand a note.
Talk about wasting health care resources.


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## ZeroGravity

Interesting fact that some may not be aware of, (I may not be entirely up to date or cover all cases so this is a general statement), but if you are rostered with a primary care practitioner but you go to a walk-in clinic instead, your practitioner is charged back by to government for that visit. While there are legitimate reasons one may need to go to a walk-in (ie doctor's office is closed, vacation etc) do it too many times because it is more convenient and your family doctor may not want you as a patient anymore. The concept is that practices are paid an access bonus amount for each patient that covers extended hours etc so that people "should" be able to see their own doctor or one in the same practice rather than ER or walk-ins. It is supposed to encourage multi-doctor collaboration to cover extended clinic hours and additional services by sharing the load and provide more services like lab work, in one place.


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## Jim DaddyO

ZeroGravity said:


> people "should" be able to see their own doctor or one in the same practice rather than ER or walk-ins.


That would entail a 12 hour drive for me, one way. So, minimum of a 3 day excursion, more likely 4 days. That's some serious accommodation costs. No doctors in the area taking new patients so I have to stay with what I had down south so I have someone to renew my prescriptions.

Admittedly, my situation is not the norm.


----------



## ZeroGravity

Jim DaddyO said:


> That would entail a 12 hour drive for me, one way. So, minimum of a 3 day excursion, more likely 4 days. That's some serious accommodation costs. No doctors in the area taking new patients so I have to stay with what I had down south so I have someone to renew my prescriptions.
> 
> Admittedly, my situation is not the norm.


As I said there are likely all kinds of legit reasons, such as yours to use a walk-in vs a family doctor, but I would say things like like because my doctor won't see me in the next hour so I'll just go to a walk-in instead isn't one. On the other side of the coin, it also is financial encouragement/penalty, depending, for practices to increase availability and services. I could see this as difficult for a single-doctor practice (maybe they are excluded?) and to have multi-doctor clinics now. While I see my own the few times I need to, I have seen another from the clinic on non-scheduled occasion because my doctor was away on vacation


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## Midnight Rider

player99 said:


> Costco N95 masks are cheap in store. Not the super duper best fitting mask, but way better than a 3 ply tissue mask.
> 
> Tip: I always straighten out the nose wire then form it to the bridge of my nose.


Curious, are they NIOSH approved N95 masks or the cheap ones made in China?


----------



## bolero

I wonder how differently this COVID thing would have played out, if China had initially disclosed it was a lab leak, the US and WHO hadn't tried to mislead everyone, and we all could have made more informed decisions instead of arguing over red herrings & conspiracy theories?

Probably China could have avoided the whole wet market backlash, which was a huge stigma, from what I recall?


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## laristotle

and there would not be so much mistrust of governments and media now?


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## player99

CRISPR home kits could become a problem.


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## HighNoon

player99 said:


> CRISPR home kits could become a problem.


Bio hacking for you and the whole family....that's right even the kids can play. Not exactly brain electrode implant surgery by DARPA or PLA experiments in covert cellular encryption in bio-terrorism, but a normalizing step forward for the masses, to the murky future of the interface of humans and AI.


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## Jim DaddyO

HighNoon said:


> to the murky future of the interface of humans and AI.


It's already happening. There are proceedures now to implant chips that improve memory (I have a bad one and I am just recalling this from a CBC news segment on the radio) for dimensia patients. 

How far is it until those chips come with built in memories of what ever they want, up to and including a memory that we have always implanted chips into newborn babies? A far fetched theory for sure, but at one time so was manned flight, submarines, and going to the moon.


----------



## player99

Jim DaddyO said:


> It's already happening. There are proceedures now to implant chips that improve memory (I have a bad one and I am just recalling this from a CBC news segment on the radio) for dimensia patients.
> 
> How far is it until those chips come with built in memories of what ever they want, up to and including a memory that we have always implanted chips into newborn babies? A far fetched theory for sure, but at one time so was manned flight, submarines, and going to the moon.


I'll take a memory chip.


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## player99

Midnight Rider said:


> Curious, are they NIOSH approved N95 masks or the cheap ones made in China?


I checked and they don't have any NOISH approval, or any approval, and they say they are not for medical use. I think they are way way better than the 3 ply masks. But I will be on the lookout for a better quality mask. Costco was selling 20 N95's for about $8. Online they sell 20 3M masks for $55. That's a big difference. But I'm worth it...


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## HighNoon

Jim DaddyO said:


> It's already happening. There are proceedures now to implant chips that improve memory (I have a bad one and I am just recalling this from a CBC news segment on the radio) for dimensia patients.
> 
> How far is it until those chips come with built in memories of what ever they want, up to and including a memory that we have always implanted chips into newborn babies? A far fetched theory for sure, but at one time so was manned flight, submarines, and going to the moon.


Indeed it is. That was the initial mission statement of the technology after it's development. However, as is often the case, it has gone through selective military protocols for, shall we say, less than positive outcomes for the regular human. And with the data collection points offered by the pandemic like voluntary DNA collections, and the physical movement of the individual by smart phone apps, I can see more than a few dark days ahead, if we don't get a handle on it.....cue the runaway train.


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## 2manyGuitars

_e_


player99 said:


> I'll take a memory chip.


For chips, I like Fritos.


----------



## Wardo

player99 said:


> I checked and they don't have any NOISH approval, or any approval, and they say they are not for medical use. I think they are way way better than the 3 ply masks. But I will be on the lookout for a better quality mask. Costco was selling 20 N95's for about $8. Online they sell 20 3M masks for $55. That's a big difference. But I'm worth it...


I ordered a box of the Vitacore N99’s last Sunday and they got here this morning from BC. They have two straps and are a really tight fit.


----------



## Paul Running




----------



## colchar

mhammer said:


> I tried going to a walk-in clinic last year, for what eventually turned out to be a not-big-enough-to-require-surgery gallstone. There are two walk-in clinics within walking distance of our home. One was not accepting walk-ins, and the other accepted walk-ins but required early registration. When my slot came around, some 5-6 hours later, I was one of only two people in the building, the other one seeming to be a medical student. She sent me to the hospital, because it was outside of what she was authorized to examine. Again, we _have_ a family doctor (as did the woman who came in for "a checkup") but the sharp and unusual pain began on a day when her office was closed.
> 
> Are there malingerers and attention-seekers out in the general populace? Sure. Always have been. But the current circumstances are siphoning anything and everything to hospital ERs, including those who might otherwise be told by a family doctor or walk-in clinic "It's nothing to worry about".
> 
> And that is part of what gets my dander up about those who are slack in their compliance with public health measures or dissuade others (intentionally or otherwise) from complying with them. It's an ER almost entirely of our own making.


I am referencing news stories in the GTA where there are hundreds, if not thousands, of walk-in clinics. These people could easily go to one, they just treat the hospital as their family doctor or are drama queens who think feeling unwell is an emergency.


----------



## colchar

2manyGuitars said:


> _e_
> 
> For chips, I like Fritos.



Fritos BBQ Corn Chips are god's gift to chips.


----------



## 2manyGuitars

colchar said:


> Fritos BBQ Corn Chips are god's gift to chips.


I like you man, but _shut your filthy mouth!!_

Plain for the win.


----------



## player99

colchar said:


> Fritos BBQ Corn Chips are god's gift to chips.


You need to pay a Fritos BBQ Corn Chips health tax. I think $2,500 x 25 years twice a year should cover your stents and eventual bypass surgeries.


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## 2manyGuitars




----------



## colchar

2manyGuitars said:


> I like you man, but _shut your filthy mouth!!_
> 
> Plain for the win.


*Blasphemer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


----------



## laristotle

HighNoon said:


> the interface of humans and AI.





Jim DaddyO said:


> implant chips that improve memory





player99 said:


> I'll take a memory chip.


----------



## laristotle

Wastewater could be signalling a potential Omicron plateau: scientists


With testing now limited, wastewater provides clues about community spread




torontosun.com


----------



## ZeroGravity

Ottawa reported flat numbers for wastewater testing over the past week or so as well with the same hopeful conclusion that we are plateauing


----------



## colchar

2manyGuitars said:


> I like you man, but _shut your filthy mouth!!_
> 
> Plain for the win.


----------



## Choo5440

Random thing I learned today, covid positive people arrested and apprehended by police are transported via ambulance (in Toronto, anyway)


----------



## cheezyridr




----------



## laristotle

Canada's public health agency admits it tracked 33 million mobile devices during lockdown


The Public Health Agency of Canada accessed data such as cell-tower location to monitor people’s activity during lockdown, it said




nationalpost.com


----------



## laristotle

From Texas to India, a patent-free Covid vaccine looks to bridge equity gaps


The new CORBEVAX inoculation received emergency use authorization last week from India’s drug regulation agency.




www.nbcnews.com


----------



## bolero

That is pretty wild!

" Nobody was paying attention to these conventional technologies,” Bottazzi said.
Hotez and Bottazzi attracted little government funding, even as the government’s vaccine development effort, Operation Warp Speed, showered pharmaceutical companies with cash. But they kept at it. "

" The vaccine is relatively cheap to produce and easy to store, and it can be created anywhere hepatitis B vaccines are manufactured. "

Lets see if the clinical trial results are good


----------



## Eric Reesor

cheezyridr said:


>


arfff!!! All from a media site that wants you to sign up to view their content and might even sell tin foil hats to subscribers. 

The contact tracing done from the data is confidential and is not used for purposes of prosecution. The data helps estimate the spread of the disease and is somewhat useful in post mortem studies of how areas of tin foil hat anti maskers and anti vaxers spread covid in their ignorance of why the measures were implemented. As well as predict the short term areas of the country at greatest risk from normal daily travel. If someone is arrested for traveling and charged with "spreading covid in a criminal manner" as a result of the data being collected then I would scream about my privacy as would any sensible naked headed Canadian who does not believe in the efficacy of wearing tin foil hats.






I suggest that if CSIS were to attach apple tracking dongles to anti masker and anti maskers cars the way thieves are in the US and Canada, I would be worried about the motives of our government(s).


----------



## cheezyridr

Eric Reesor said:


> arfff!!! All from a media site that wants you to sign up to view their content and might even sell tin foil hats to subscribers.
> 
> The contact tracing done from the data is confidential and is not used for purposes of prosecution. The data helps estimate the spread of the disease and is somewhat useful in post mortem studies of how areas of tin foil hat anti maskers and anti vaxers spread covid in their ignorance of why the measures were implemented. As well as predict the short term areas of the country at greatest risk from normal daily travel. If someone is arrested for traveling and charged with "spreading covid in a criminal manner" as a result of the data being collected then I would scream about my privacy as would any sensible naked headed Canadian who does not believe in the efficacy of wearing tin foil hats.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest that if CSIS were to attach apple tracking dongles to anti masker and anti maskers cars the way thieves are in the US and Canada, I would be worried about the motives of our government(s).


that's incredibly naïve. canada's gov't, like my own, had been caught doing shady stuff to their people many times. trusting them is foolish


----------



## Eric Reesor

cheezyridr said:


> that's incredibly naïve. canada's gov't, like my own, had been caught doing shady stuff to their people many times. trusting them is foolish


I had a dream. And in that dream last night, Covfefe-19 started to breakup and give up this July. It gave up and went back into the closets from which it came, plain and simple. People were working and not taking sick days at random. The economy boomed because people actually felt great and were out working and happy. Twitter was alight with happy campers, Facebook was useful again and the weary Covfefe stressed and griping vox populi vox dei were starting to show sensible restraint in their curses and accusations of those who choose to serve the populace.

We are at war with Covfefe-19 and the way it has restricted our freedoms lately. This disease has made many prone to mistrust each other regardless of stripes and origins and Covfeve-19 disease is still the greatest threat to our future freedom. Cocfeve-19 cares not about ones freedom, stripes, borders or origin it infects the body of the people and distorts the mind of otherwise sane humans.

People actually are the government the last time I looked. If not then we are all in big trouble especially here in the west where we take pride in our origins and freedom of belief.


----------



## Wardo

y'all got some nasty surprises comin yer way boy.


----------



## cheezyridr

Wardo said:


> y'all got some nasty surprises comin yer way boy.


agree. i only have an inkling of it, and i don't like it. things are going to get uglier long before they start getting better.


----------



## tdotrob

Haha! ya you guys are prescient freedom fighters! lol all heed the warning boy from the fake cowboy lawyer driving a pickup truck through Toronto.


----------



## laristotle

looking forward to the great reset, are ya?


----------



## HighNoon

laristotle said:


> From Texas to India, a patent-free Covid vaccine looks to bridge equity gaps
> 
> 
> The new CORBEVAX inoculation received emergency use authorization last week from India’s drug regulation agency.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.nbcnews.com


“We know variants emerge more rapidly in unvaccinated populations,” Kamil said. “If we don’t address vaccine equity, we are always going to be playing catch-up with the latest variant.”

This is stated in the article by a Mr. Jeremy Kamil, associate professor of Microbiology and Immunology at LSU. I would agree in theory, if the vaccine being used globally conferred sterilizing immunity. However it does not. So, now we're in uncharted territory as compared to historical pandemics, where they would burn through the population in somewhat predictable patterns. Now we have a pandemic of variants, and there are indicators that mass vaccination with this leaky vaccine, is contributing to the evolution of the virus.


----------



## HighNoon

laristotle said:


> looking forward to the great reset, are ya?


Greatest transfer/theft of wealth in human history. The reset's going to need a gold inlay reset.


----------



## Eric Reesor

Life in the living rooms of republican middle America after the current Covfeve-19 pandemic in the US and Canada finally subsides. 





DISCLAIMER THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL POST
The views of the poster are not necessarily the view of the site hosting the post and should therefore be viewed at own risk of spitting coffee on the keyboard, or in extreme circumstances vomiting in a projectile of green slime. Viewing this post may require hitting the off button on your device for your own protection. Further to: viewing and reading this post in entirety may unintentionally cause discontent and possibly even unscheduled bowl movements.


----------



## Midnight Rider

cheezyridr said:


> that's incredibly naïve. canada's gov't, like my own, had been caught doing shady stuff to their people many times. trusting them is foolish


Yeah,... just ask Edward Snowden,... he''l give you the goods with proof by the truck loads to back it up. This guy has my vote for whistle blower of the half century.

Start at the 11:35 mark where the conversation gets interesting and very detailed.


----------



## Midnight Rider

Eric Reesor said:


> People actually are the government the last time I looked. If not then we are all in big trouble especially here in the west where we take pride in our origins and freedom of belief.


With all due respect,... people have not been the government for decades and yes we are in big trouble. However,... it is never too late to take back the power we once had if we all band together and realize we are all being played and pitted against each other by those who wish to divide and conquer the masses for gain of even more control over our lives.

Nothing new here,... this method has materialized over and over throughout the course of history. It is all there for anyone to study and learn from if they so choose to do so.

The common theme is to take things away in small increments over long periods of time until you wake up one day and ask the question,... what the hell just happened?


----------



## GuitarT

Health Canada approves Pfizer antiviral but supply issues expected


The authorization posted to the Health Canada website this morning says the treatment is greenlighted for adult patients with mild or moderate COVID-19 who are also at high risk of becoming more seriously ill




kitchener.citynews.ca


----------



## HighNoon

Midnight Rider said:


> With all due respect,... people have not been the government for decades and yes we are in big trouble. However,... it is never too late to take back the power we once had if we all band together and realize we are all being played and pitted against each other by those who wish to divide and conquer the masses for gain of even more control over our lives.
> 
> Nothing new here,... this method has materialized over and over throughout the course of history. It is all there for anyone to study and learn from if they so choose to do so.
> 
> The common theme is to take things away in small increments over long periods of time until you wake up one day and ask the question,... what the hell just happened?


Democracy in Canada is failing, and has been for some time now. The good thing about the pandemic, is that it has brought that very clearly into focus, for those who aren't afraid to stick their head above the parapet.


----------



## JBFairthorne

Talk is cheap.


----------



## tdotrob

JBFairthorne said:


> Talk is cheap.


Haha no way man posting non sense and Shit on an Internet forum and doing online “research” makes you a freeeeeedom fighter


----------



## Jim Wellington

Such enlightening comments from Mr. ANTIFA and the monkey...on point as per usual.


----------



## jayoldschool

This thread is completely off the rails. It may get unlocked in the future. For now, no more covid talk.


----------

