# What do you wish you knew about cars?



## vokey design (Oct 24, 2006)

Hey all, just putting together curriculum for highschool auto class' and looking for input. I do not want to waste my time teaching things that will not be useful to my students, they get enough of that in other classes. So my question to you is:

W*hat do you wish you knew as a vehicle owner?*


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Required maintenance VS wasted money maintenance.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Emergency repairs.

Basic tools required for minor roadside work.

Code readers.

Basic problem diagnosis skills.


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## vokey design (Oct 24, 2006)

greco said:


> Required maintenance VS wasted money maintenance.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

How to get laid in a Toyota Yaris.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

How to do just the basics on modern vehicles. Changing fuses, bulbs, maybe oil etc. Your students probably won't be interested in more than that and your budget probably doesn't cover rebuilding say a 318 or doing body work. Possibly installing a sound system....the rattle the windows kind. Maybe tossing the cat and improving the exhaust system. Picking the proper tools might be a good idea to.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I'd like to be able to tell when a mechanic is lying.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

player99 said:


> How to get laid in a Toyota Yaris.


Just leave a few of these in the back seat.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

vokey design said:


> Hey all, just putting together curriculum for highschool auto class' and looking for input. I do not want to waste my time teaching things that will not be useful to my students, they get enough of that in other classes. So my question to you is:
> 
> W*hat do you wish you knew as a vehicle owner?*


I think the best thing you could do for them is give them the basic theory behind how everything works, mechanical & electrical. 

If they get interested and take it further, you've given them a huge head start. If they don't have an interest in it, they will at least have an idea of what's going on when their vehicles act up or need to go in for repair. Give them a fighting chance.
Info about lubricating oils, tires and what all those numbers mean, stuff like that.


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## Alan Small (Dec 30, 2019)

hot wiring and butterfly valves


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Alan Small said:


> hot wiring and butterfly valves


That's where the cordless 12v battery with home made jumper cables comes in. 




The battery set up can also be used to power the electric fuel pump if needed when hotwireing.


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## bigboki (Apr 16, 2015)

How to change tire 
How to change STUCK tire.
And how to look for help on YouTube but also have common sense to distinguish between good and bad advice.

Those are all practical questions. Now I don't know if you want to teach them the real mechanics of how engine works? Gear box etc?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

greco said:


> Required maintenance VS wasted money maintenance.


should I change the oil or lube up my brakes? ....stuff like that? 

I say do both if it's in the budget


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Why you should never do your routine maintenance at the dealership.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

also when to toss in the towel on repairs ...

AKA .. when the cost of repairs exceed the value of the car today ... say NO to the repairs , sell for what you can get and buy a better car.

how to boost a car battery ( safely )
change a tire (properly and in a safe place)
check fuses / relays
change wiper blades
how to adjust mirrors correctly
how to check tire pressures 
how to add oil / fluids to proper levels.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Guncho said:


> Why you should never do your routine maintenance at the dealership.


where should you do it?


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

vadsy said:


> where should you do it?


An independent garage you trust.

Every time I went to the dealership I felt like they were trying to upsell me on some maintenance item that was never mentioned in the manual. Also their maintenance schedule seemed to be double the manual.

When I go the garage now I feel like my mechanic is being straight with me. This needs to be done now, this needs to be done in the near future, etc.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Guncho said:


> An independent garage you trust.
> 
> Every time I went to the dealership I felt like they were trying to upsell me on some maintenance item that was never mentioned in the manual. Also their maintenance schedule seemed to be double the manual.
> 
> When I go the garage now I feel like my mechanic is being straight with me. This needs to be done now, this needs to be done in the near future, etc.


I don't think you're obligated to say yes every time


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Why you should never take a rental Pontiac Sunfire down a 50k dirt road just because it has a tape deck and the rental pickup truck didn't.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

vadsy said:


> I don't think you're obligated to say yes every time


You're not but I'd rather I go to someone who wasn't trying to deceive me. Wouldn't you?


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## numb41 (Jul 13, 2009)

oldjoat said:


> also when to toss in the towel on repairs ...
> 
> AKA .. when the cost of repairs exceed the value of the car today ... say NO to the repairs , sell for what you can get and buy a better car.
> 
> ...


I think this is a good list.


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

My youngest is just starting his online auto class today. Tough go as it is such a hands on subject. He has this and another similar class this quadmester. Should be interesting. At least I have a better chance of helping him than math. LOL


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Lincoln said:


> I think the best thing you could do for them is give them the basic theory behind how everything works, mechanical & electrical.
> 
> If they get interested and take it further, you've given them a huge head start. If they don't have an interest in it, they will at least have an idea of what's going on when their vehicles act up or need to go in for repair. Give them a fighting chance.
> Info about lubricating oils, tires and what all those numbers mean, stuff like that.


People would be better, safer drivers if they understood the basic principles of how a vehicle operates - how much rubber is actually on the road, how brakes actually stop you, what happens when you press on the gas pedal from the fuel injection/carb right through to the differential. My dad (a mechanic) was sure to let his customers know the demands they placed on their machines - hoping that they would treat the machinery and the physics with a little more respect. I remember visuals like pinching fingers (calipers) explaining how I made a request to bring thousands of pounds of metal to a stop using a few square inches of rubber under friction with a road surface. Clutch plate surfaces grinding down while you held on to that pedal too long, and tappets flying thousands of times a minute when I put my foot on the gas.

Oh, and basic maintenance and "listening" to your car.


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## Alan Small (Dec 30, 2019)

efficiency and the future of power systems: hydrogen, oxygen, solar, battery....when students know about tomorrow then the teacher did a great job


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

With cars being run by more and more computers, there are fewer and fewer things the "Average Joe (& Jo)" can do these days. Show them what's still totally within their capabilities instead of believing the whole lot is beyond them. If it's all overwhelming, chances are they'll hand even the simplest jobs over to someone who will overcharge regardless of simplicity. 

....then teach them how to make it look like they know what they're doing when talking to a mechanic!


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

How to spot simple problems:


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

WOW!! That's been there a while. Like the Dr who left his wristwatch in the chest cavity. (or a Junior Mint)


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

vokey design said:


> Hey all, just putting together curriculum for highschool auto class' and looking for input. I do not want to waste my time teaching things that will not be useful to my students, they get enough of that in other classes. So my question to you is:
> 
> W*hat do you wish you knew as a vehicle owner?*


I want to know why they don't yet fly.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Wardo said:


> How to spot simple problems:
> 
> View attachment 348873


I found a 3/8" Snap-on ratchet with a 9/16 shallow socket on it, under the intake on a 350 chevy once. That was my big score


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

How much yearly expected and unexpected maintenance will cost you. Plus gas, insurance, parking… Versus alternate transit if it's available.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Guncho said:


> You're not but I'd rather I go to someone who wasn't trying to deceive me. Wouldn't you?


I don't feel like they're trying to deceive me. I feel like they're trying to upsell me, in which case I just say no. It is part of their job, I understand. Nobody has told me my blinker fluid was low and that ruined my flux capacitor or my tires were dry and I needed new ones. Otherwise, about the deceive part, I agree with you.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Guncho said:


> You're not but I'd rather I go to someone who wasn't trying to deceive me. Wouldn't you?


That's why I go to my dealer. They let me know if theres something else to consider, but I dont feel any pressure to agree. Oil changes and tire swaps with the odd detailing.

Just dont go to pushy dealers?


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## hondamatic (Feb 5, 2019)

Great feedback so far.

A few ideas...

-bad sounds, and what they are (tappers, bottom ends, clutch throw out, brakes that are worn out, fan belt slipping, exhaust leak, relays clicking). Smells too (dragging brake, clutch, head gasket leak stench, running rich).

-why checking oil at intervals is important (and the effect of running low)

-why a torque wrench is so important, especially on lug nuts

-to the point of walking away, express that parts (and labor) on repairs on a car add up to several times it’s new cost


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## MarkM (May 23, 2019)

bigboki said:


> How to change tire
> How to change STUCK tire.
> And how to look for help on YouTube but also have common sense to distinguish between good and bad advice.
> 
> Those are all practical questions. Now I don't know if you want to teach them the real mechanics of how engine works? Gear box etc?


Just read the comments on YouTube and they will let you know whether it's good or bad advise,


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## vokey design (Oct 24, 2006)

hondamatic said:


> Great feedback so far.
> 
> A few ideas...
> 
> ...


Ahh remember those old Midas commercials where the mechanic would make all the noises? Lol.


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## hondamatic (Feb 5, 2019)

Onomatopoeia is encouraged, of course!


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Which mods are a waste of money.
I have a pretty good idea myself, but my teenage self could have benefited from that.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

vadsy said:


> I don't feel like they're trying to deceive me. I feel like they're trying to upsell me, in which case I just say no. It is part of their job, I understand. Nobody has told me my blinker fluid was low and that ruined my flux capacitor or my tires were dry and I needed new ones. Otherwise, about the deceive part, I agree with you.


That's exactly it. No matter where you go, dealer, Mr Lube, or a little shop, they will try and sell you more than you need. You have to know when to say NO. And that's pretty hard to do unless you have a clue what you're talking about.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Change an air filter, and why you should do it before going for service at the dealer.
How to boost a car with a dead battery from another car.
How to remove a battery for replacement.
How to safely change a tires, including jacking up a car safely and supporting it with jack stands.
How to change oil and filter and why it's not worth doing it yourself on some cars (filter in a bad spot needing the car on a lift for example.)
How brakes work. How to change pads and rotors.

Understand a CV joint and why it is needed. The noise it makes when they fail. VW owners can demo the sound if needed.

To never trust a car jack.

Why oil changes are important for modern cars especially those with timing chains that use engine oil, and variable valve timing that also uses engine oil.

How air bags and seat belts save lives.
How little speed is needed to kill someone if you leave the road or hit a pedestrian.


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## Stephenlouis (Jun 24, 2019)

I worked with GM field engineering for years as a drivability and electrical technician. I know everything about cars. I would tell them a flashing ses light means to pay attention to the car, should be obvious, and stop as soon as possible. solid light is small-time worries. If it is not a designed to wear out part, leave it alone it is beyond your equipment to diagnose. I think basic electricity for battery charging systems is good to know, everyone has access to a DVOM or test light nowadays, bulb replacement and why we have grounds and their real function and effect. Brake systems, the mechanical hydraulic side. cooling systems, tires safety, tread wear, load ratings, tire ratings, air pressure vs load, speed ratings, and how to change safely. Practical for hands-on, still can do at home, but theory for understanding system operations without necessarily working on them but to be educated as to what is going on within the system so you have a foundation when you get to the garage. Break the car down into sub groups.

EDIT The guy above me has a bunch of great points.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

I struggle not with lack of knowledge, but lack of equipment. I need a machine shop, a hoist, and an alignment rack.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

vadsy said:


> I don't feel like they're trying to deceive me. I feel like they're trying to upsell me, in which case I just say no. It is part of their job, I understand. Nobody has told me my blinker fluid was low and that ruined my flux capacitor or my tires were dry and I needed new ones. Otherwise, about the deceive part, I agree with you.


I guess I don't know enough about cars to know the difference. When McDonalds says do you want large fries with that, I know what that means. When the Toyota dealership says your flux capacitor needs to be flushed I have no idea if what they are saying is true or if they are trying to upsell me. There's no mention of my flux capacitor needing to be flushed in the owners manual but this is a car service person telling me this. I don't like constantly feeling like I'm being upsold or deceived and would rather go to a garage that doesn't do either. Call me crazy.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Budda said:


> That's why I go to my dealer. They let me know if theres something else to consider, but I dont feel any pressure to agree. Oil changes and tire swaps with the odd detailing.
> 
> Just dont go to pushy dealers?


Well the cars were Toyota and there's only one Toyota dealership in Oakville so I didn't have much choice.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Lincoln said:


> That's exactly it. No matter where you go, dealer, Mr Lube, or a little shop, they will try and sell you more than you need. You have to know when to say NO. And that's pretty hard to do unless you have a clue what you're talking about.


I disagree. I don't ever think my mechanic is trying to sell me more than I need.

Gary's Automotive in Oakville. Awesome folk.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

1SweetRide said:


> I want to know why they don't yet fly.


and fold up into a briefcase too.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

where is and how to use the turn signal.
what side of the vehicle the gas tank spout is on


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

oldjoat said:


> also when to toss in the towel on repairs ...
> 
> AKA .. when the cost of repairs exceed the value of the car today ... say NO to the repairs , sell for what you can get and buy a better car.
> 
> ...


This needs a few repairs








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Probably has a 235 with a 3 speed, which is ok or you can swap it for a 283 with a 3 speed. Might take a little work there. Or you can go flathead with a 4 speed and different rear end. Now some might say that the cost of repairs could exceed the value of the car. Would you say no? Doing what's needed to get the car running and road worthy might be in the realm of a high school auto class. Especially if where you live has a vintage/antique/collector license classification.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Why don't you teach them about electric cars. That's where were going.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Electraglide said:


> This needs a few repairs
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wish that was local. My brother's got a sled he hates and a built 350 sitting on the stand


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Guncho said:


> Why you should never take a rental Pontiac Sunfire down a 50k dirt road just because it has a tape deck and the rental pickup truck didn't.


8 track or cassette? Used to take my second ex's Sunfire down a lot of dirt roads going fishing. It had an 8 track in it.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Alan Small said:


> efficiency and the future of power systems: hydrogen, oxygen, solar, battery....when students know about tomorrow then the teacher did a great job


That would be a very short and not a hands on class with not much relevance for todays kids. Teach them about things that are out there right now with what you have.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Wardo said:


> How to spot simple problems:
> 
> View attachment 348873


Quick adjust time?


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

The way things are right now teaching them how to cook on a motor might be a good idea, especially if you're driving at night when almost everything is closed and you just can't stand another nuked burger.





there's cook books about this.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Guncho said:


> I disagree. I don't ever think my mechanic is trying to sell me more than I need.
> 
> Gary's Automotive in Oakville. Awesome folk.


Super. That's the way it should be. Unfortunately the average person is not so lucky.
The more the mechanic does to your car, the more money he makes. He's not being paid per hour, he's being paid per job. And he's often making a cut on the parts he uses as well.
The service writers/Service advisors have no more mechanical knowledge than a pogo stick, they have no idea if the mechanics are being honest or not.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

cboutilier said:


> I wish that was local. My brother's got a sled he hates and a built 350 sitting on the stand


If your borders were open I'd say it could be roadtrip time.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Electraglide said:


> The way things are right now teaching them how to cook on a motor might be a good idea, especially if you're driving at night when almost everything is closed and you just can't stand another nuked burger.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And roadkill recipes! you should always have salt, pepper and aluminum foil in the car.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Lincoln said:


> Super. That's the way it should be. Unfortunately the average person is not so lucky.
> The more the mechanic does to your car, the more money he makes. He's not being paid per hour, he's being paid per job. And he's often making a cut on the parts he uses as well.
> The service writers/Service advisors have no more mechanical knowledge than a pogo stick, they have no idea if the mechanics are being honest or not.


I've actually taken my car for an oil change and had the garage call me and tell me the current oil is fine and no need to change it yet.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Guncho said:


> I've actually taken my car for an oil change and had the garage call me and tell me the current oil is fine and no need to change it yet.


That's awesome. I wish everybody was that lucky.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

I think everyone's on the wrong track what with electric vehicles poised to take over the planet. 
Also what about just knowing you have BCAA and the phone number handy? 
My wife's car has an inflatable spare with a compressor and there's no way I am changing that tire. She has the platinum BCAA card for a reason.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

I know way more about cars than I want to. I’d like to forget most of it. I grew up with old cars that needed a lot of repairs I couldn’t afford so I had to learn. I owned a couple of race cars and due to finances I was the pit crew and chief mechanic. I have rebuilt transmissions on the side of the road in winter. I have changed rings and done a valve job in the driveway. When I was going out with my wife I had to adjust the valves and change a rad hose on the side of the road on our first road trip. I changed out two front wheel bearings on a front wheel drive in the middle of a three hour race and finished the race. I hate working on cars. I now do the IT work for a shop I trust with my cars. They trust me. I trust them.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

tomee2 said:


> And roadkill recipes! you should always have salt, pepper and aluminum foil in the car.


And something to put a hole in the can of beans.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

LanceT said:


> I think everyone's on the wrong track what with electric vehicles poised to take over the planet.
> Also what about just knowing you have BCAA and the phone number handy?
> My wife's car has an inflatable spare with a compressor and there's no way I am changing that tire. She has the platinum BCAA card for a reason.


If you have BCAA and a way to phone them. Last time I was on the Hope Princeton there was no cell coverage near Sunday Summit. Same for places on the Coq and the Pass too. As as electric cars taking over the planet, that's more than a few years off....not going to happen in the next 10 or so years.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Kerry Brown said:


> I know way more about cars than I want to. I’d like to forget most of it. I grew up with old cars that needed a lot of repairs I couldn’t afford so I had to learn. I owned a couple of race cars and due to finances I was the pit crew and chief mechanic. I have rebuilt transmissions on the side of the road in winter. I have changed rings and done a valve job in the driveway. When I was going out with my wife I had to adjust the valves and change a rad hose on the side of the road on our first road trip. I changed out two front wheel bearings on a front wheel drive in the middle of a three hour race and finished the race. I hate working on cars. I now do the IT work for a shop I trust with my cars. They trust me. I trust them.


Nothing removes fingertips quite like doing wheel bearings in pit lane. I did that on a VW Golf racecar last season. Holy hot.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Basic car maintenance isn’t possible now like it was on cars in the 50’s-90’s. I look under the hood on my car and it’s just a big cowling covering a bunch of unrecognizable stuff. I don’t even have a dipstick (all electronic) and wouldn’t have a clue how to even change my oil (not that I would bother anyways).

Kids might be more into diagnostics and high performance tuning these days. Of course it never hurts to know how to change a tire, although I haven’t had to do that for many years either. I have run flats. For anything unexpected there is always this...


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Electraglide said:


> Last time I was on the Hope Princeton there was no cell coverage near Sunday Summit. Same for places on the Coq and the Pass too


must have been a long time ago, it has service now


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

vadsy said:


> must have been a long time ago, it has service now


Bit more than 3 years ago near where the service road hits 3 at the Summit about half way between Whipsaw and Manning. No coverage for either Rogers or Telus. Had to ride to almost Princeton before we got service. This is at Sunshine but it's the same all along that road.




__





Loading…






www.cbc.ca




About the only phones that are reliable are the landlines at Manning. Same with the Pass, the Coq, the Canyon.....lots of places.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Kerry Brown said:


> I know way more about cars than I want to. I’d like to forget most of it. I grew up with old cars that needed a lot of repairs I couldn’t afford so I had to learn. I owned a couple of race cars and due to finances I was the pit crew and chief mechanic. I have rebuilt transmissions on the side of the road in winter. I have changed rings and done a valve job in the driveway. When I was going out with my wife I had to adjust the valves and change a rad hose on the side of the road on our first road trip. I changed out two front wheel bearings on a front wheel drive in the middle of a three hour race and finished the race. I hate working on cars. I now do the IT work for a shop I trust with my cars. They trust me. I trust them.


Been there too with both 2 wheels and 4 and used a jack, a 2x4 and a couple of 12" crescent wrenches to pop the beads on tires to fix a punctured tube or to swap rubber. Me I like working on old cars and bikes.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Electraglide said:


> Bit more than 3 years ago near where the service road hits 3 at the Summit about half way between Whipsaw and Manning. No coverage for either Rogers or Telus. Had to ride to almost Princeton before we got service. This is at Sunshine but it's the same all along that road.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


my phone must be acting up, works fine the whole way


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

I wish I knew which cunts are responsible for designs that make basic repairs/procedures needlessly difficult.

You know, when you _need_ an 18" long ratchet to remove a battery... and why is the Positive terminal located so close to the chassis?


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Guncho said:


> I disagree. I don't ever think my mechanic is trying to sell me more than I need.
> 
> Gary's Automotive in Oakville. Awesome folk.


Dynamic Auto on Speers is also great. Went there for a lot of years with a handful of different cars, never an issue...growing up as a gear head my BS detector is highly sensitive to dodgy mechanics.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

vadsy said:


> my phone must be acting up, works fine the whole way


You musn't be Rogers or Telus.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

guitarman2 said:


> I'd like to be able to tell when a mechanic is lying.


When his mouth is moving.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Guncho said:


> Why you should never do your routine maintenance at the dealership.


I've worked as a tech for 20 years and this advice costs people more money than anything else in vehicle ownership.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Okay Player said:


> I've worked as a tech for 20 years and this advice costs people more money than anything else in vehicle ownership.


Yes, I've done ok having my 2010 GMC serviced at the dealership. I've had the service guys save me money. They get to know you and want to help when they can.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I avoided dealerships for a long time but I took my F150 to a dealer for its first oil change because I’d heard that getting the factory installed filter off first time was a pain. Anyway, semi synth oil change and filter cost 50 bucks and they checked a bunch other stuff. I could barely buy the oil and filter for $50 and would still have to do the work myself. So I’ve been taking it there ever since and when it needed brakes and plugs didn’t cost that much plus it was easier than doing it myself in the underground. Can’t complain about the local Ford dealership although I’m sure there’s a lotta places that hold up to the stereotype for dealerships.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I've always taken my 2015 Honda CRV to the dealership with the option to take it to an independent garage if I felt I was quoted high on something. Which I've done on occasion. But all my maintenance has been done at the dealership. I also own a 2016 Hyundai and I don't like the dealership service where I bought it so I take that to the Honda dealership as well but I have taken it to an independent for work more so than the Honda.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

tonewoody said:


> I wish I knew which cunts are responsible for designs that make basic repairs/procedures needlessly difficult.
> 
> You know, when you _need_ an 18" long ratchet to remove a battery... and why is the Positive terminal located so close to the chassis?


Replacing headlights... the oil change place insisted I needed the front bumper removed, and that doing that and changing all the lights once was the best option. $800.
I laughed at that because I know that the recommended Ford service method is to remove the wheel, then the inner fender liner then lift the washer fluid tank, then you change the bulbs. I'm not joking!
With skinny arms and good dexterity you can do it with the tire on but the fender liner and washer tank had to off. Ford Fusion, and some Mazdas.


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## Davidian (Sep 8, 2008)

- BMWs are tremendous cars...to lease. Never own one as they become complicated maintenance princesses


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

tonewoody said:


> I wish I knew which cunts are responsible for designs that make basic repairs/procedures needlessly difficult.
> 
> You know, when you _need_ an 18" long ratchet to remove a battery... and why is the Positive terminal located so close to the chassis?


I had to take the entire front bumper assembly off my wife’s Pontiac GXP to change a headlight.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Okay Player said:


> I've worked as a tech for 20 years and this advice costs people more money than anything else in vehicle ownership.


So you're saying you will save money by doing your maintenance at a dealership? Not at Oakville Toyota that's for sure.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Guncho said:


> So you're saying you will save money by doing your maintenance at a dealership? Not at Oakville Toyota that's for sure.


How do you quantify saving money? My brother for example insists preventative brake services are a cash grab. Waste of 150 bucks once a year and in his opinion he's better off saving that money. Okay, fair enough. Now, he also replaces his brakes about 2-3 times as often as someone who does their preventative maintenance and brake replacement is substantially more costly.

That being said I can't pretend to know what every shop does or doesn't do, or even what their labor rates are. But I can tell you unequivocally I've never recommended something to a customer I don't do on my own vehicles, and that I've seen customers decide "This vehicle isn't worth fixing anymore." more times due to a build up of issues caused by ignoring maintenance intervals than I ever have due to catastrophic failures.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

FWIW I have never felt I have got value for my money when taking my car to the dealership.
I have indy's that I trust and have great reputations that have a lower hourly rate and make a greater effort to use alternate parts sources when it makes sense to do so (ie rebuilt or aftermarket parts). I have had to take cars to indys to fix what dealerships could not (in spite of being charged hefty amounts for their easter egg hunting). The new Subaru dealership in our town recently tried to blame a prematurely defective battery on my wifes 1 yr old car on the trailer hitch lights installed by UHaul to avoid a warranty claim (there were other examples of poor service with them as well) . My wife now drives an extra 30 mins each way to go to another Subaru dealer for service (company car) as theyve never fucked about.
Ford once charged me an arm and leg to change my ECU and various other electronic components in an attempt to solve an intermittent starting problem (never fixed, never refunded). An indy discovered in a few minutes that it was actually a defective (and cheap) fuel pump relay.
When I had a similar problem with a Dodge (fuel pump fuse would intermittently blow while driving), their (Bannerman Dodge)solution was to give me a handful of fuses to change, presumably at the side of the road whenever it happened. Again, an indy solved it by replacing the fuel pump relay.
Use whatever works for you but I wont be back to dealers unless I buy a new car and they win me over during the warranty period. I can tell you, Oakville Audi had that chance, but didnt.

That said, there are incompetent/crooked indys as well.

The only thing I miss from dealerships is the loaner cars and the nice waiting rooms/coffee machines. So for some people that convenience may be worth it. Perhaps additionally, if you sell your cars when they are still recent, dealership receipts for maintenance may make the sale smoother. I tend to keep my cars to the 10 year age mark, so that sort of thing makes little difference.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Okay Player said:


> How do you quantify saving money? My brother for example insists preventative brake services are a cash grab. Waste of 150 bucks once a year and in his opinion he's better off saving that money. Okay, fair enough. Now, he also replaces his brakes about 2-3 times as often as someone who does their preventative maintenance and brake replacement is substantially more costly.
> 
> That being said I can't pretend to know what every shop does or doesn't do, or even what their labor rates are. But I can tell you unequivocally I've never recommended something to a customer I don't do on my own vehicles, and that I've seen customers decide "This vehicle isn't worth fixing anymore." more times due to a build up of issues caused by ignoring maintenance intervals than I ever have due to catastrophic failures.


I think you are confusing "Not doing maintenance at the dealership" with "Not doing maintenance at all".

When we used to do our maintenance at the dealership, they were constantly recommending things that were not mentioned in the owners manual maintenance schedule and their maintenance schedule in general was almost double the owners manual. Everytime I went there I felt like I had to be on guard. It was stressful and not a good experience.

I have absolutely saved money by switching to an independent garage.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Guncho said:


> I think you are confusing "Not doing maintenance at the dealership" with "Not doing maintenance at all".
> 
> When we used to do our maintenance at the dealership, they were constantly recommending things that were not mentioned in the owners manual maintenance schedule and their maintenance schedule in general was almost double the owners manual. Everytime I went there I felt like I had to be on guard. It was stressful and not a good experience.
> 
> I have absolutely saved money by switching to an independent garage.


Anytime someone goes into something on high alert because they think they're going to be screwed more often than not the outcome is already determined.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Okay Player said:


> Anytime someone goes into something on high alert because they think they're going to be screwed more often than not the outcome is already determined.


You weren't there so you don't know.

Everytime I went to the dealership I felt like they were trying to maximize how much I would spend per visit. I don't feel that way at the independent garage we go to and I feel like our cars are well maintained.

It's a pretty common sentiment online that you are going to be save money by not doing routine maintenance at the dealership. Pretty sure I didn't invent the concept.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Okay Player said:


> Anytime someone goes into something on high alert because they think they're going to be screwed more often than not the outcome is already determined.


while there are terminally high maintenance customers, sometimes that condescending attitude is one of a few things that may put people off of the dealership experience.
"We're great If anything goes wrong its the customers fault." doesnt exactly raise the bar for improving/providing outstanding customer service.
Anybody that walks in your door should be given the benefit of the doubt as being a good customer and is an opportunity to win them over. they trusted you with something of a great value (car and credit card) so it isnt unreasonable for them to be on "high alert". if a dealer is as superior an experience as they claim, they should have nothing to fear.

For me, the biggest issue with dealers is, for what they charge, I expect greater responsibility when they drop the ball. I get that, fuckups happen. they often have techs straight out of school, dont see much of a particular car/problem, whatever...its how they handle it after that makes or breaks them. unfortunately, most go on the defensive instead of making things right, and for that reason, they arent worth the premium they charge. Your shop may be different/better. In spite of the marketing, I dont find there to be a lot of consistency in QOS in the dealership community although I do know some good ones out there.


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## blueshores_guy (Apr 8, 2007)

player99 said:


> How to get laid in a Toyota Yaris.


Drive to a motel in it.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Diablo said:


> while there are terminally high maintenance customers, sometimes that condescending attitude is one of a few things that may put people off of the dealership experience.
> "We're great If anything goes wrong its the customers fault." doesnt exactly raise the bar for improving/providing outstanding customer service.
> Anybody that walks in your door should be given the benefit of the doubt as being a good customer and is an opportunity to win them over. they trusted you with something of a great value (car and credit card) so it isnt unreasonable for them to be on "high alert". if a dealer is as superior an experience as they claim, they should have nothing to fear.
> 
> For me, the biggest issue with dealers is, for what they charge, I expect greater responsibility when they drop the ball. I get that, fuckups happen. they often have techs straight out of school, dont see much of a particular car/problem, whatever...its how they handle it after that makes or breaks them. unfortunately, most go on the defensive instead of making things right, and for that reason, they arent worth the premium they charge. Your shop may be different/better. In spite of the marketing, I dont find there to be a lot of consistency in QOS in the dealership community although I do know some good ones out there.


That statement wasn't specifically to do with car maintenance, it pertains to pretty much everything. You don't need to look far to find threads of "Buying a factory made guitar is a waste of money I can make a partscaster that's way better for less money."


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Double


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Okay Player said:


> That statement wasn't specifically to do with car maintenance, it pertains to pretty much everything. You don't need to look far to find threads of "Buying a factory made guitar is a waste of money I can make a partscaster that's way better for less money."


I don't think that's an accurate analogy. Is the dealership using different tools or oil then any garage would be using? Does the Toyota dealership know something about changing the oil in Toyota cars an independent garage could not know?


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Guncho said:


> You weren't there so you don't know.
> 
> Everytime I went to the dealership I felt like they were trying to maximize how much I would spend per visit. I don't feel that way at the independent garage we go to and I feel like our cars are well maintained.
> 
> It's a pretty common sentiment online that you are going to be save money by not doing routine maintenance at the dealership. Pretty sure I didn't invent the concept.


I already acknowledged I wasn't there which is why I typically don't involve myself in online vehicle maintenance discussions. I've worked in both dealerships and small shops in my career and try to use my experience to steer people away from making sweeping blanket statements that are often misleading and detrimental to the people reading them. I dont believe I said that "Delaerships are always cheaper." and if I did I apologize. But I do take issue with "Dealerships are always more expensive."


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Guncho said:


> I don't think that's an accurate analogy. Is the dealership using different tools or oil then any garage would be using? Does the Toyota dealership know something about changing the oil in Toyota cars an independent garage could not know?


Thats an extremely expansive question that I have no way of answering.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Okay Player said:


> I already acknowledged I wasn't there which is why I typically don't involve myself in online vehicle maintenance discussions. I've worked in both dealerships and small shops in my career and try to use my experience to steer people away from making sweeping blanket statements that are often misleading and detrimental to the people reading them. I dont believe I said that "Delaerships are always cheaper." and if I did I apologize. But I do take issue with "Dealerships are always more expensive."


I think it's fair to say that over the life of a car, doing your maintenance at a dealership is going to be more expensive then doing your maintenance at an independent garage.

Isn't it fair to say that dealerships generally have a higher hourly rate than in indy?

I'm of course not talking black and white always 100% in every situation. I'm talking your average dealership vs your average indy.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Okay Player said:


> Thats an extremely expansive question that I have no way of answering.


Seems pretty specific to me.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I have to be very careful about what I say in this discussion, but let's just say that I once saved myself upwards of $5000 CAD by getting a second opinion on a repair to a car.

The estimate from the dealership was north of $5000. Total repair cost wound up being less than $300.

Now granted, I bought the part and had my mechanic install it, but....yeah, there it is.


I'm sorry but I have nothing to add in response to the OP.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Guncho said:


> Isn't it fair to say that dealerships generally have a higher hourly rate than in indy?


Not really, no. There's also the quoted labour hours which also play a large factor in total labour cost.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Milkman said:


> I have to be very careful about what I say in this discussion, but let's just say that I once saved myself upwards of $5000 CAD by getting a second opinion on a repair to a car.
> 
> The estimate from the dealership was north of $5000. Total repair cost wound up being less than $300.
> 
> ...


I saw a similar but opposite thing play out a couple years ago. Small shop said "Your civic needs an engine." and they weren't trying to screw him, it did. But the guy took it to the Honda dealer for a second opinion where he was told the engine would be replaced under a service campaign and cost him nothing.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

In response to the OP, I think you're facing a rather daunting challenge.

With the level of technology in cars these days, what can the average person really do if they break down on the side of the road, other than to use that technology to call for help?

I guess a lot of what you teach would have to be related to the interface of information technology and the basics of ICE / Hybrid and Electric technologies.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

laristotle said:


> and fold up into a briefcase too.


If the automobile had followed the same development cycle as the computer, a Rolls-Royce would today cost $100, get a million miles per gallon, and explode once a year, killing everyone inside." _Robert X. Cringely, InfoWorld_


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

we've all got horror stories about shops ripping us off ( or trying to )

back to the original question ...

tell them to PULL OVER to the side of the road any time a light on the dash suddenly turns on ( then investigate )
read the owner's manual !
visually check the tires before each trip
stop and check out any "funny" noises that suddenly appear while driving
when to change wiper blades and use WW antifreeze.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

I never go to the stealership. I use my own mechanic. Saves me Klon dollars.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

reasons for all season and winter tires ....


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

oldjoat said:


> we've all got horror stories about shops ripping us off ( or trying to )
> 
> back to the original question ...
> 
> ...


And when the oil pressure light comes on, it means "shut it off now!!!"

About a year ago, my sister's car suddenly blew off its oil filter. Oil Light came on, she was on a freeway, and she thought it would be no problem to make it off the freeway and into the city. Say bye-bye to that engine.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

my older sister did the same thing with the hot temp light ( on more than one car ) 

"no , sorry, it can't be fixed , the motor is toast "


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Lincoln said:


> And when the oil pressure light comes on, it means "shut it off now!!!"
> 
> About a year ago, my sister's car suddenly blew off its oil filter. Oil Light came on, she was on a freeway, and she thought it would be no problem to make it off the freeway and into the city. Say bye-bye to that engine.


Oil Light comes on at ~10psi oil pressure. Damage is already done before that point. That is the down 4L on an engine that takes 4L of oil light. We call them the dummy light.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

oldjoat said:


> we've all got horror stories about shops ripping us off ( or trying to )
> 
> back to the original question ...
> 
> ...


How to read a fuel gauge comes in handy too. Any other gauge for that matter.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

That's where technology didn't do us any favors. Everybody is used to driving around with a "check engine" light on. It means, go to the shop, there's something wrong. And so drivers figure the temperature light and oil pressure light mean the same thing as a check engine light. Just keep driving, it'll be fine.

I've seen engines get so hot after blowing a hose, that the plastic valve covers melted. That $5 hose just cost you a car.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

When you're at a dealership check the certificates the mechanics have. Seems they're taking courses and upgrading a lot. Do the same check at your indy shop. Most of the mechanics there have their papers and that's about it.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Okay Player said:


> taugQUOTE="Lincoln, post: 2821742, member: 3543"]
> That's where technology didn't do us any favors. Everybody is used to driving around with a "check engine" light on. It means, go to the shop, there's something wrong. And so drivers figure the temperature light and oil pressure light mean the same thing as a check engine light. Just keep driving, it'll be fine.
> 
> I've seen engines get so hot after blowing a hose, that the plastic valve covers melted. That $5 hose just cost you a car.


There really should be a different light for, "The gas cap is not screwed on properly."


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

It’s also useful to have some basic knowledge on how to maintain simple drive mechanisms other than those found on cars; a good example is the centrifugal clutch on this unit which requires lubrication to work properly.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Guncho said:


> There really should be a different light for, "The gas cap is not screwed on properly."


VW has that, at least they used to.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Okay Player said:


> VW has that, at least they used to.


The old ones didn't but they had an oil pressure light that didn't come on until things dropped to 3 or 4 PSI. I think on some of the newer cars there's an icon that looks like a gas door open. If you have tire pressure sensoes and the wheels are put on wrong it can screw things up. I ignored them on the Equinox. They were mixed up.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

The Cars give Rick his first strike and he's pissed. Fuck Cars.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

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