# Tipping



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

When tipping at a restaurant do you calculate your tip based on the subtotal or the total including taxes?


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

If the service is average, I tip on the subtotal. If the service is great, I go with the total after taxes.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

For me it's including taxes.


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## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

Usually based o n the total. I think i am a good tipper, but i am also not afraid to make a point if the service was brutal by tipping little.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I never gave it much thought in the past, but then I got to thinking about the taxes and had to ask


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

tax in Alberta is 5%

terrible service, they will get nothing. I have no problem doing this. servers these days expect a 15% tip for taking your order.
bad service, they will get tax multiplied by 1
below satisfactory, I take the tax and multiply by 2
if the service is satisfactory, I take the tax and multiply by 3.
if it is above satisfactory (good service), its multiply by 3 rounded up to the nearst dollar.
if it's great service, they will get 20% rounded up to the nearest $5

having said this, the service industry in Edmonton has plummeted. 

in my opinion, a GREAT service is:
never having an empty glass 
a good server should know when to approach a table and ask if everything is satisfactory, not before, in the middle of your first bite or half way through a meal.
excellent food - piping hot, not dry/soggy, not burnt and promptly served and cooked to your specification IE: steak - which is often over cooked or cooked under a heat lamp whilst waiting to be served.
good presentation of the food. in most cases the server tips out to the cooks.
my table promptly cleared when I am done my meal with minimal intrusion. I don't need a dirty empty plate in front of me.

some people may think this is overkill, some may not. I used to be a banquet server, and a damn good one at that and this list is NOT difficult to achieve.

what i usually get is mediocre food - at least half of my steaks are overcooked and will be sent back half of the time. i order med-rare because I enjoy rare through medium. it gets sent back if its more than medium and sometimes when it is medium.
and long wait times between drink orders, a finished meal and the bill and servers asking how my food is before i have a chance to even cut into it.
and a server that is never around when I need something.

also, I'm sick of these debit/credit machines asking for tips at fast food restaurants.

if you're not taking my order at my table, bringing it to me, filling my glass and clearing my table, you do not get a tip.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

blam said:


> tax in Alberta is 5%
> 
> terrible service, they will get nothing. I have no problem doing this. servers these days expect a 15% tip for taking your order.
> .


I work in the restaurant and food biz, and you might be interested to know that servers are taxed on their income based on the 15% standard. That's effectively why the 15% standard exists in restaurants. I have routinely worked many slow days in many restaurants where servers made little to no tips at all for their shift. Servers in Ontario get paid $8.95 per hour. Spend a few afternoons making $1.50 less than minimum wage and you might see things differently. 

Shawn.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I've always been rather mystified at what the protocol is for tipping at buffets, brunches, etc.

There ARE people coming around regularly to fill your water glass, but that's it. I highly doubt they make a decent wage but tipping is supposed to correlate qith quality of service, and if nobody really did anything for ME, in particular, as a customer, other than make sure I didn't eat too much by filling me with fluids, what am I supposed to tip?

How is the tip shared or directed to staff in such instances?


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

sorry, but i respectfully disagree.

They applied for the job and accepted it on those terms. if you don't want your income to be variable on tips, find a different job. If my salary was based on how many clients we had coming in the door, I'd not have accepted the job I am in. It is NOT my responsibility to pay their wages, especially if they're terrible at their job.

If you were in another industry and your employee was not doing a satisfactory job, would that person get a raise? no.
so if a server is not doing a satisfactory job, why should they get a substantial tip? 

I've worked in the hotel industry as well as the serving industry and almost all of the people that received tips on top of their salary do NOT claim 100% of their tips come tax time so that point is moot. 

edit: further more taxed on 15% standard? 15% of what? there is no way to determine how much of a tip they make. a server at a small coffee/desert shop where the bill is <$20 makes a lot less tip than a server at the keg where a couple will easily spend $70 per meal. once again, moot point.

Servers have no right to complain about their wages being based on tips. No one put a gun to their heads and made them take that job.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

mhammer, in the case of a buffet, I would tip on the quality of food and availability. I hate buffets with dry food and a lack of food.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I will just throw in that I am also a firm believer in tipping based on service. It is never automatic in my book. Many people that are serving seem to think it is, but they are wrong.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

blam said:


> sorry, but i respectfully disagree....



amen to everything you said.

as for the tax thing, i myself tip on the total bill because i'm lazy. however, if i wasn't, i would only tip on the cost. the idea of tipping someone based on how much the government is taking from you for the pleasure of being able to spend money that you worked for is kinda strange to me. maybe it's because i'm not used to paying any sales tax at all.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

the government taxes waiters and waitresses the same way they tax everyone else.

the only difference is that it's based on the honor system and the server has to claim their tips, all of it. however cash tips are non trackable like a pay stub is. if a server was absolutely mind blowing and got tipped 20% cash by everyone, he could technically claim half of it at tax time and no one would be the wiser. he would be in a much lower tax bracket and laughing all the way to bank. it would be one hell of an audit to really get a server in trouble with the govt.

they are taxed accordingly to how much they made in tips at the end of the year rather than per paycheque as you would at a desk job.

a server can easily break the 60 000$ yearly mark working at a decent restaurant yearly but a cheap restaurant like denny's maybe in the 20s or 30s.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

For great service I go 20% of total after taxes.

For average service it's 15%.

If I have to stand at a counter it's zip.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I don't tip either for fast food or if I have to go get my food.

But in a sit down restaurant--I normally tip 15-20%--depending on the service, and I never think to make a difference between pre & post tax.
If the service is sub par or above well above par I will go higher or lower.

I have tipped nothing--rarely, but I've done it.
One time the waitress kept walking right past our table without acknowledging us, and kept going to her friends and talking with them.

I hope her friends tipped well, we weren't the only table not happy with her that didn't tip her.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

blam said:


> mhammer, in the case of a buffet, I would tip on the quality of food and availability. I hate buffets with dry food and a lack of food.


So do I (hate buffets with dry food and not much of it), but that's not the server's fault, and you're tipping the server, not the kitchen or the manager. So I'm not any clearer about what to do.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

What to do? Don't eat at buffet style restaurants.

Anytime I see any signage indicating "all you can eat", I keep looking.

If their main selling point is that you get lots of food, I'm not interested. Maybe if I was responsible for feeding a hockey team, but I prefer to go for quality. I don't mind paying a bit more if the food is consistantly good.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Milkman said:


> What to do? Don't eat at buffet style restaurants.
> 
> Anytime I see any signage indicating "all you can eat", I keep looking.
> 
> If their main selling point is that you get lots of food, I'm not interested. Maybe if I was responsible for feeding a hockey team, but I prefer to go for quality. I don't mind paying a bit more if the food is consistantly good.


You make a good point. We end up in buffets when we're VERY hungry and can't wait, or when there are multiple tastes to cater to. There was an Indian/Chinese place we used to go to....but I digress.

I see all those people running around showing you to your table then abandoning you while some poor Asian lady in a vest comes over every 15 minutes and tops up your water. Do you tip? Does SHE get the tip? Does she ever SEE the tip? Who exactly am I tipping in this context? I'm willing to be generous, but frankly I'm stumped.


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

nkjanssen said:


> What does this mean?


I believe it's a minimum estimate calculated based on wages and included on the T4 as taxable income.


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## snacker (Jun 26, 2008)

20% of the after taxes total for great service - less if the service wasn't great - it's all about tip karma folks - don't screw around with the tip karma...

also.....tip the staff at gigs if they're serving you...it's only fair


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

mhammer said:


> You make a good point. We end up in buffets when we're VERY hungry and can't wait, or when there are multiple tastes to cater to. There was an Indian/Chinese place we used to go to....but I digress.
> 
> I see all those people running around showing you to your table then abandoning you while some poor Asian lady in a vest comes over every 15 minutes and tops up your water. Do you tip? Does SHE get the tip? Does she ever SEE the tip? Who exactly am I tipping in this context? I'm willing to be generous, but frankly I'm stumped.


I may be wrong but I always thought that the buffet type things all the tips were pooled and then divided up amongst all the servers.


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## -ST- (Feb 2, 2008)

If I'm someplace where I gig, I don't do the math. I just have this as kind of a guideline.

If the bill is less than $20 the tip is $5. It doesn't matter if I had a cup of coffee comp'd by the manager the tip is still $5
If the bill is between $20 and $40 the tip is $10
If the bill is above $40 and above, I'll tip 20% after tax but I round up to the next $5. No coins. 

Even if someone else is paying, if it is in a place where I gig, I always take care of the tip, cash.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

A tip of $10 on a $20 tab is 50%.

I respectfully recommend that you start doing math in restaurants.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

washburned said:


> I believe it's a minimum estimate calculated based on wages and included on the T4 as taxable income.


negative...they are taxed on what they claim they made in cash tips. credit and debit tips will be put on their pay cheques and taxed accordingly with their wages.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

mhammer said:


> I've always been rather mystified at what the protocol is for tipping at buffets, brunches, etc.
> 
> There ARE people coming around regularly to fill your water glass, but that's it. I highly doubt they make a decent wage but tipping is supposed to correlate qith quality of service, and if nobody really did anything for ME, in particular, as a customer, other than make sure I didn't eat too much by filling me with fluids, what am I supposed to tip?
> 
> How is the tip shared or directed to staff in such instances?


I tip 10% not 15% but I do it with taxes included. I tip the same for a buffet as its more than just water. They clear your plate everytime you up etc.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Milkman said:


> A tip of $10 on a $20 tab is 50%.
> 
> I respectfully recommend that you start doing math in restaurants.


Well at least they will be fighting over who get to serve him next time he comes in. Thats a good tipper


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

I once knew a girl who was a service person in a major resort town (could have been Banff) where they had people from all over the world visit. The staff had a joke: "What's the difference between a Canadian and a canoe?" A:"Canoes tip."


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I never run into bad service. Where I go, my drinks are usually put down on the table without even a need to ask for them. I dont use percentages, or use a calculator. I usually just start with a $3 base and add $2-$3 per person at the table for a regular restaurant or a $10 base if its a more exclusive place with servers who really do a good job. Of course at Christmas time its different, its usually $60 base plus whatever............


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> I once knew a girl who was a service person in a major resort town (could have been Banff) where they had people from all over the world visit. The staff had a joke: "What's the difference between a Canadian and a canoe?" A:"Canoes tip."


Man, we REALLY need some sort of rim-shot emoticon!


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## grumpyoldman (Jan 31, 2010)

ne1roc said:


> If the service is average, I tip on the subtotal. If the service is great, I go with the total after taxes.


That's how I figure it as well, and if the service is exceptional, I go a bit beyond that.

John
thegrumpyoldman


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## grumpyoldman (Jan 31, 2010)

snacker said:


> 20% of the after taxes total for great service - less if the service wasn't great - it's all about tip karma folks - don't screw around with the tip karma...
> 
> also.....tip the staff at gigs if they're serving you...it's only fair


I'm happy to see I am not the only one who does this.

John
thegrumpyoldman


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

:/ I don't eat out a lot. No money. When I have the chance to go out, I don't always also have the luxury of a tip. It becomes a matter of "do I order less so I have a tip" or "do I go for myself and not for someone else's sufferance?".

If I have a chance, on the debit machine I put in % and tap out 10 to 20, some random number between. Expectation is contemptuous otherwise. Existence does not equate entitlement.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Tipping always has been, in my mind, a way for the employers to have you pay the wages. Now that is not to say that you are not paying the wages of anyone else either. All products have labour included in the price, you just don't see it and you don't have the opportunity to pay it or not or to adjust the amount. The cruise industry is a big example of that. We have been on many cruises and all the lines now automatically include tipping on your account. They give you "guidelines" as to how much you should be tipping. You can still go down and have them take that off your shipboard account and hand out the tips yourself, which I always do. I have no idea how much those people are getting or if they ever see any of it unless I hand it to them direct.

The food industry could not survive if they rolled in labour into the cost of the food. Not even at minimum wage so it depends on the customer to pay it direct. Otherwise it would cost you $14.00 for a ham sandwich


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

the problem with rolling tips into the bill automatically is it makes the server not have to work for their tips...


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Anyone who has spent any time in Africa or Asia Minor will tell you the place is as corrupt as they come. Any person on the public payroll, whether border guard, policeman, teacher, tax official, building inspector, nurse, or whatever, is going to pump you for money. And one of the things that people who study Africa will tell you is that being on the public payroll is generally a precarous existence, financially, UNLESS you join the bribe and graft game. For many public servants, it is apparently their 2nd, and sometimes most reliable, revenue stream.

Seems to me that governments in those countries are treating public servants like restaurant owners treat servers: You want the money? YOU figure out how to get it.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

I spoke to the owner of a chain of Tim Hortons...he encountered nothing but trouble from the tipping "system"...girls stealing out of other's tip cups...cashiers getting tips while the server or sandwich maker get none...he said it was like having 20 nagging wives...ha ha ha...

His solution...eliminate tips...everyone gets paid higher proper wages...it's a lot more peaceful now...


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

jimihendrix said:


> I spoke to the owner of a chain of Tim Hortons...he encountered nothing but trouble from the tipping "system"...girls stealing out of other's tip cups...cashiers getting tips while the server or sandwich maker get none...he said it was like having 20 nagging wives...ha ha ha...
> 
> His solution...eliminate tips...everyone gets paid higher proper wages...it's a lot more peaceful now...


It has to be one way or the other. This guy obviously decided he would take less bottom line and figures it is worth it.


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## -ST- (Feb 2, 2008)

*It's never been about the math*

Hi Milkman,

That was kind of my point - 



Milkman said:


> A tip of $10 on a $20 tab is 50%.
> 
> I respectfully recommend that you start doing math in restaurants.


For me, it's never been about the math, and the math doesn't make sense.

What is $5 on anything up to $20 (including a comp'd coffee)? It's a gesture. It's a recognition that if I gig at a place and there are people who work there, in some small way we are sharing an experience. 

When I'm doing the 20% on bills over $40 I always round up to the NEXT $5 and I have now amended my original post.


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## -ST- (Feb 2, 2008)

*Tip Karma is real*

Hi GuitarsCanada,




GuitarsCanada said:


> Well at least they will be fighting over who get to serve him next time he comes in. Thats a good tipper


It's not about the math. It is about a relationship with the people at the places I gig. I don't make a big deal about this, 'cuz it's not. In a world where people will stand in line for 10 minutes to buy a $5 coffee, figuring out tips increments of $5 dollar bills is no biggie. I always carry $5's in a section of my wallet. It just makes it easier. When I settle the bill, I accept all the change and hand the server something from the other side of my wallet.

Without going into it in detail - tip karma is real.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

I guess I should just not bother eating at restaurants then. Oh well, restaurants seem to always be about so the obviously don't need me.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

Interesting reading about tipping here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tip_(gratuity)

It is frowned upon and laughable and counter culture in different places around the world...it also leads to tax evasion and racism...it is also unfair as "ugly" people rarely get tipped compared to "attractive" people...


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

-ST- said:


> Hi GuitarsCanada,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will give you that based on what you are saying. In terms of gigging at a place and taking care of people. I would also go as far as to say if I was given outstanding service that I would not go by the usual percentage tip either. But for anything else, I max out at 15% and less if the service is not satisfactory


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> I once knew a girl who was a service person in a major resort town (could have been Banff) where they had people from all over the world visit. The staff had a joke: "What's the difference between a Canadian and a canoe?" A:"Canoes tip."


I've got a good friend who has done quite a bit of traveling in the past 10 years to different resorts in the Carribean and Costa Rica. According to his experiences from what he's seen, the Canadians might be a little stingy in the tip area, but Americans tend to treat wait staff and service people very rudely and treat them like slaves where as Canadians tend to respect them more as equals.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

just to add, if someone brings me A pizza, (to my house) they get a $3 tip. if i order 3 pizzas they get 5 bucks.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> but Americans tend to treat wait staff and service people very rudely and treat them like slaves


[video=youtube;vj9TRVZo5Nc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj9TRVZo5Nc[/video]


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i suppose, in an exagerated way, some americans can be like that. in our defense however, most parts of the states, the consumer has lot more clout than he would, here in toronto for example. (for me) it was a bit of a culture shock to come here and see people routinely accepting things that one would never tolerate in the states.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Related question: 

Does anybody here that gigs regularely use a jar/hat for tips from patrons? There was an interesting thread on TGP about that. I've never thought about doing that before but with the erosion of compensation I've seen being paid at the bars these past years I've been thinking about the idea more.


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