# tabs or music



## jimmy peters

which one do you prefer and why?


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## GuitaristZ

well...I like tab because it is easy and quick to sightread. I actually prefer a combination of tab and music so I can see where the music is going easily and still be able to play it well.


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## violation

Music. Provides more information such as tempo, time signatures and timing (16th notes, triplets, etc).


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## GuitaristZ

violation said:


> Music. Provides more information such as tempo, time signatures and timing (16th notes, triplets, etc).


who needs that stuff...:tongue:


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## Skoczylas

If people were flu-ent in both, Music would win 100% to Everyone. There is no possible way you could beat reading music with Tabs.

But since no many poeple learn to rea music, and tab is so easy to do for anyone tabs are more popular.

I prefer Tabs.. only because I am not flu-ent in reading music.


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## Lester B. Flat

I play by ear so I don't really know either. If I was going to learn I would learn to read music. One of the advantages of me learning would be for me to more easily communicate my original compositions to other musicians. If I showed a keyboard or horn player tab, they would just look at me funny.


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## jcayer

I voted tab because I don't know music notation...

I'm trying to learn music language now, but if I was to do it again, I would learn how to read music at an early age..


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## Hamm Guitars

I don't have the patience for either and I can't sight read any of it.

I work with people that read charts all the time and can walk in on any gig if the charts are supplied. I, on the other hand, have never played anything note for note in my entire life as I am 100% pure wanker.

I think all you real musicians that can read music and use correct musical terms are missing out on all the fun of saying things like "rig-a-dig-dig-dig-dig -- dig -- dig-- bug-a-dah--bug-a-dah" to get your point accross.


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## Lester B. Flat

Hamm Guitars said:


> I think all you real musicians that can read music and use correct musical terms are missing out on all the fun of saying things like "rig-a-dig-dig-dig-dig -- dig -- dig-- bug-a-dah--bug-a-dah" to get your point accross.


I know how to talk to drummers. Puddle-a-dump.


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## Tarl

I can,t read music so I just do it by ear, tab, word of mouth and / or someone showing me. Been Ok with that approach for over 30 years...


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## violation

GuitaristZ said:


> who needs that stuff...:tongue:


Haha, anyone who wants to build speed and play with a metronome, :rockon2: :rockon2:


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## GuitaristZ

violation said:


> Haha, anyone who wants to build speed and play with a metronome, :rockon2: :rockon2:


so really just shredders?


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## violation

Not necessarily, I know a lot of blues guys that incorporate small sweeps and fast licks (ie: repetitive pentatonic patterns) into their stuff.


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## Luke98

Tabs for sure, but im learning to read music in music class.
I'm helping a few other people so i'm still on the first page.

The first "song" is

on high E

0---1---3---0---1---3---0---1---3

and the next is

0---1---3---1---0---0---1---3---1---0


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## zinga

*2 Tab Or Not 2 Tab*

i like them both. sometimes i learn a song from tab then listen to the recording of it lol. some times yes sometimes no lol. what is fun is to write your own stuff then change it to tab.:rockon2:


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## Starbuck

*Tab*

For me, tab's the way to go. I have to think that for someone like me who is self taught largely via the internet, it has made me extremely lazy. Whatever you want it's out there in tab form. Except some really cool old Whitesnake. My Dad is a musician as are all his brothers. He plays fiddle and did not learn to read music till he was in his 50's. It's never too late, but when you haven't got alot of time (I have an almost 2 year old) the instant gratification of tabs will do for now.. I just keep in mind that it's never too late!


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## jimmy peters

Hamm Guitars said:


> I don't have the patience for either and I can't sight read any of it.
> 
> I work with people that read charts all the time and can walk in on any gig if the charts are supplied. I, on the other hand, have never played anything note for note in my entire life as I am 100% pure wanker.
> 
> I think all you real musicians that can read music and use correct musical terms are missing out on all the fun of saying things like "rig-a-dig-dig-dig-dig -- dig -- dig-- bug-a-dah--bug-a-dah" to get your point accross.


you sound like me. i dont even play a song the same way twice,(well not all of them)

jimmy


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## simescan

I have to go with Tab cause I can't read music, (I'm too lazy to learn).


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## Mooh

Standard notation for me, though I can read tab. I started to read some music about the time I started to read English, so it goes back a long way. By the time I picked up guitar at 14, I had been playing piano and singing seriously for years. Since I was 14 in 1972, commercially available tab was rare and unknown to me, I naturally didn't know there was an alternative. Armed with piano lesson books, some Segovia stuff, and a piano bench full of music, I taught myself. Dad was a composer, so he could answer my theory questions (or lead me to the answers, he was good at that) and tell me if I was messed up.

It's all good. It's a matter of what you need from music, what you want to do with it, how you need to communicate, and how much you want to know.

Reading music is good for me, even though it never helped me get the chicks.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Renvas

im new to guitars.. so i find it much easier to use tabs rather than scaled music...


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## lolligagger

I played saxaphone for oxer 10 years...I even studied at college so I did plenty of book learning and I can still read music. So far I have been too lazy to learn all the notes on the fretboard so I admit tab has been my main stay when learning a song.


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## SinCron

I cant read tabs. I learn from the music. All about trial, error and knowing your axe.


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## PaulS

I learned how to read music when I took instrumental music in high school and studied some classical guitar at the RCM. It has been many years since I used it so I'm not that proficient at it any more. Tabs are ok but most are never really correct or very useful for me. I know my keys, scales and timing but now a days I leave the rest up to my ear. Years back my goal was to be able to play what I hear going on in my head, getting closer. My time is limited so I cannot keep a tight practise schedule and I learn a lot just by listening and visuallizing what chords etc the artist is playing. It works for me.. I do feel that if you want to play you have to dig into some theory at one time or another, or you'll stagnate..


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## Budda

i can only guess that they mean do you learn songs from tab or sheet music?

i use my ears, and turn to tab if i absolutely cant figure it out. and even then, sometimes the tab is right so i have to change something anyway.


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## I_cant_play

I can use both but I really feel using tab has held me back sometimes. Reading music I think is beneficial for anyone, not only because it's the universal way of communicating among musicians but also, it makes you aware of the differences in timing in a piece of music. I think learning standard notation has improved my sense of rhythm greatly. I have nothing against tab and I'm definitely a lot better at using tab and not that great at reading music but I think reading music is all around a much better approach.


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## Agata0023

I tend to figure it out by ear, but I'll use tabs if I'm really stuck, or atleast use them to get an idea of what it should sound like (most tabs arent 100%) then figure the rest out by ear. I can't read music sheets. I tried to learn back in highschool....no dice.


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## Geek

Tabs for guitar and bass, music for keyboards.


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## I_cant_play

> I tend to figure it out by ear, but I'll use tabs if I'm really stuck, or atleast use them to get an idea of what it should sound like (most tabs arent 100%) then figure the rest out by ear.


I do that too. Sometimes I take a quick look at a tab just to give me a place to start figuring out a solo or something. Sometimes it's just hard to get started..


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## jane

I voted music. I love tab but it's not very useful for pianists, and has a lot of limitations. I like programs like guitarpro or powertab where you get both... the tab tells you which string/position and the music tells you the rhythm and the dynamics.


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## hammer744

Agata0023 said:


> I tend to figure it out by ear, but I'll use tabs if I'm really stuck, or atleast use them to get an idea of what it should sound like (most tabs arent 100%) then figure the rest out by ear. I can't read music sheets. I tried to learn back in highschool....no dice.


Same here - ear first, tab if necessary to get a tough part


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## offkey_

I play by ear. If I get stuck, I get another guitar player to show me what he thinks.


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## felenoral

Tabs really help with fingering since there are so many different ways to play a note. Then again, musical notation has so many pros too. I like it when both are present for guitar.


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## djem

+1 to the above post. Notation for classical guitar actually has it's special symbols that indicate such things as string choice, position, fingering. To me, notation has an advatage because you 'see' the time value of the notes unlike with tab. Seems more natural for some reason.

Tab on ther hand, shows you the exact positioning and is easier for beginners to interpret. Well, it shows th exact positioning as seen by the transcriber. I've known many tabs to be incorrect.


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## jimmy peters

GuitaristZ said:


> who needs that stuff...:tongue:


that comment from you, of all people?

good luck
jimmy peters


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## -staind-

Musical notes because without the Rhythm, tempo, Signature, Key, etc... I'm completely lost!!!! But I always preffer Having notes and tabs together(nothing can beat that!)


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## arloskay

I'll throw my hat into the "both" ring. They each have their own purpose, although admittedly tab cannot stand on its own, whereas music notation can.


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## fraser

tab can be a good instructional tool to give to a student- but its never accurate and i can learn by ear in about 80% less time. its too visual, and for me music is not a visual thing- otherwise id be lissning to shania twain instead of actual music.


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## zontar

djem said:


> +1 to the above post. _Notation for classical guitar actually has it's special symbols that indicate such things as string choice, position, fingering._ To me, notation has an advatage because you 'see' the time value of the notes unlike with tab. Seems more natural for some reason.
> 
> Tab on ther hand, shows you the exact positioning and is easier for beginners to interpret. Well, it shows th exact positioning as seen by the transcriber. I've known many tabs to be incorrect.


I've taken classical lessons--and even when playing in higher positions I prefer music to tab for classical. I find it easier than tab for classical.

But overall there's nothing wrong with a combination of the two--I'll switch between the two at times on electric. Especially for riffs. But I don't always play them at the same position.


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## 1PUTTS

I'm a tab guy mainly because, while I can read music, I can't do it quickly or proficiently enough for it to be any fun. I guess it's a "path of least resistance" thing. For a beginner like myself, tab is a great way to just get started playing some songs.

Obligatory YouTube clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5OHPgne1S4


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## Milkman

If I have to choose between the two I choose music notation over tab, for the simple reason that it allows you to communicate with musicians other than guitarists.

Truthfully though, developing your ears is infinitely more advantagious than either tab or notation. 

I'll take someone with good ears any day over someone who can sight read, but lacks the ability to listen to music and hear the detail and be able to learn parts from it.


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## Milkman

Paul said:


> The analogy I like to draw is that we'd never hand out DVD's of "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest", (or any other movie for that matter), if we were going to put on a play. The truly gifted artists are fully fluent and literate in their chosen language, whether that be English, music or colour theory.
> 
> There is a difference between playing notes, and playing music, and that is part of the artistry. Those who choose to remain musically illiterate because, "it'll ruin my creativity man!!!", (and we've all heard that sentiment), are doing themselves a great disservice.
> 
> There are only 12 notes, and four basic functions of chords. How hard can it be?



Which is why I chose to study music in ernest after having played professionally for years. Having good ears AND being able to read is the best combination. If it has to be one or the other the ears are more important IMO.

I know people with ARCT certificates who couldn't play a Deep Purple song without music notation.


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## Wheeman

BOTH! When I started playing bass guitar in my school's jazz ensemble I had to learn standard notation because everything was in standard notation and tabbing it out was slow and inaccurate. Learning both is a great benefit. Its easier to find chords, knowing where notes are, and makes it easier to get around the fingerboard.

Standard notation, yeah it takes a bit to learn, but, IMO, allows for more flexibility.


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## Milkman

Paul said:


> Would that be most of the BSO? :smile:
> 
> I'm sure we agree 99 44100% on this topic. I'm a music education and standard notation absolutist. If the Ministry of Eductation put half the effort and $$$ into school music programmes that they do with the unproven standardized testing, I am quite convinced that it would take only a few years for the quality and substance of "popular" music to trend strongly upwards.
> 
> I understand the standard notation cannot cover all bases. Is _Revolution 9_ music? I say yes. But I cannot notate it.
> 
> But it really is only 12 notes in western music. That's it....



We do agree on this.

I guess the point I'm making is that theory is NEVER a negative thing, and particularly standard notation, however, without an inherent understanding of music in a very natural and organic sense, reading and writing music is useless IMO.

Turning your nose up at musical theory is just dumb. It's not necessary, but it's hard to imagine it being a detriment.


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## Dude5152

Tabs Rule! they give you the notes and all you have to do is apply the tempo of the notes and song by listening to the music.


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## zontar

It seems some here have set up a false dichotomy. (What's this--a guitarist using a big word?:smile

Learning to read music and developing one's ear are in no way mutually exclusive. Those who learned by ear will not lose anything by learning to read music. Why limit yourself unnecessarily?


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## Milkman

zontar said:


> Learning to read music and developing one's ear are in no way mutually exclusive. Those who learned by ear will not lose anything by learning to read music. Why limit yourself unnecessarily?


Quite true and I'd say most of us would agree. I have done both and so has Paul and many others here.

BUT


given a situation where I HAD to make a choice I choose the musician over the analyst if you take my meaning.

Notation gives us a common language to communicate with, tools to compose and access to data. It will NOT make a non musician into a musician.

Music notation is math.


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## zontar

I wouldn't take the music reader or the musical ear over the other only on that basis. I'd have to consider the person as well--their personality, attitude, personal playing style and musicianship would all play into it. If you get a musician with a great ear, that's no guarantee they're a good musician or that they'd be most suitable.

I get your meaning, but there are a lot of variables.


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## definitelymaybe1991

Milkman said:


> We do agree on this.
> 
> Turning your nose up at musical theory is just dumb. It's not necessary, but it's hard to imagine it being a detriment.



of course it's necessary to learn theory O_O

how else do you think people learn to EFFECTIVELY improvise and write music? it's not just taking patterns and playing them around. lol.

it's important to know the intervals you're playing, how they notes sound over which chords. that takes theory, and lots of it.


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## tenyrsgon

*Music!*

I would have to say music! Knowing how to read music, there are more possibilities available then reading tab! I found that learning to read music taught me to be able to play more instruments then just the guitar! Reading music allows you to see every detail about the song to play it correctly...and well of course sheet music has one basic notation which is common to everyone whereas some tabs I have seen everyone uses different notations for (upstrokes, downstroke, hammer on's etc...)! Overall I found it to be more useful then tab but each to his own!


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## sally_sockhop

I'd say music for sure. It tells you so much more. Tabs annoy me - a lot of people I know use them to bypass actually learning to sightread.

The good thing about them is that you can find tabs of lots of songs for free, but you usually have to buy sheet music.


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## Harmony78

When I started playing, tab was nonexistent and there were on note for note music transcriptions (not for solos anyway)

Tab helps me quickly nail passages I can't get by ear. I also read standard notation quite often. And video clips are great (I'm a visual learner). 

There's no "either or" for me. I use it all.

P.S. I don't like the "Olga" type tab format. I know it's free, but it's impossible to read!


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## wnpgguy

tabs/music... apples and oranges really. I know how to read both but primarily use tabs for the notes and sometimes there will be standard notaion above so I use that for the timing. I don't think I would ever read standard notation alone for guitar, its just so much slower for me when tabs practically jump off the page into my mind.


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## GibsonTay37

TAB, it's the only type of music i can read!


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## Coustfan'01

Tab+notation like guitar pro is the best of both worlds. You don't have to seach how to finger the tune properly ,and you have rythm indications too. You can even listen to it and slow it down.
I love guitar pro and powertab. They're pretty useful for noting down your stuff too.


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## Mooh

There is good tab and bad tab. If there is timing in the tab then it's good, imho, otherwise it's lacking. Some of the Mel Bay instructional books include timing in the tab. 

One of the chief purposes of written music is to allow the player to read it, not knowing what it's supposed to sound like before hand, and make it sound right. Take out the timing and this isn't possible, because not all notes have the same length. Tab which is joined to standard notation is okay, but if the reader doesn't look for the timing, what purpose does it serve?

I'm not complaining, all this adds to my job security as an instructor, but basic reading does solve a lot of problems.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Peter

I voted tab but I feel the need to clarify. I don't -prefer- tab, I am stuck with it due to my complete inability to read music. kjdr


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## Vintage_Groove

I actually avoided learning tab when I started guitar, and forced myself to read the music instead. Now I'm picking up a Bass guitar and will continue to read music. If I choose to try piano (or keyboards) then I'll read music for that. 

Tab has it's uses, but I find it too specific and limiting. I'm also learning music theory so I can understand how notes/chords are constructed and to be able to communicate with other musicians. 

Ultimately it's for my son who's learning drums now, but already wants to pick up another instrument. I figure if I set him on the correct path at his young age he'll be set when he meets others (or wants to start his own band).


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## steve60ca

*Music or tab*

I prefer music. Why? Because I can read music and I can read music. Huh? you ask. I can read music and tab kills my eyes. Notes on a staff I can see clearly. Tab sometimes gets cramped and ya' gotta figure out the correct spacing. It's good for a solo, but to lay it out in front of me and play ... give me the music.


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## Matthew-91

Since December, I've been reading tabs for my acoustic. I find that I can play scales off the top of my head, but I have crazy trouble reading the sheet music for an guitar- I don't take lessons, I just self teach piano and guitar


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## dwagar

Geek said:


> Tabs for guitar and bass, music for keyboards.


exactly.

on a keyboard one note on the staff relates to one key, but on a guitar the playing position is important (eg, that same note shows up a few times on the fretboard), tab gives you that.

hammer ons, pull offs, slides, bends and pre-bends, etc. IMO are easier to read in tab.

I'm struggling to learn keys, reading is important I think, but for guitar, I stick with tabs every time.

If you plan on getting studio work though, you better learn to read sheet music.


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## Mr. Pink

i can't read music either, so i prefer tabs. i can ear out certain songs, if they are easy, but for the most part, i read tabs.


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## Lincoln

I read music, haven't gotten the hang of tabs yet but I'm trying to learn tab cause that seems to be the way everything is written these days......on the net anyway.


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## Stratocaster

Tabs simply because it's easier.


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## jimmy peters

i have found thru the years that neither one really matters, IF the guitarist can FEEL the music.if he cant, he is hopeless anyway.
i have always read music, but am now learning tab.


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## zontar

dwagar said:


> on a guitar the playing position is important (eg, that same note shows up a few times on the fretboard), tab gives you that.


I took some refresher lessons in classical guitar as an adult--I was teaching at the time, and felt the need to brush up for some beginners who wanted to learn classical. I was reading music quite well then, and also dealt a lot with tab. SO I tried changing some of the tougher classical pieces I was learning into tab--but you know what? I didn't use the tabs--I stuck with the regular music notation. It indicates position changes, and I just found it easier to deal with--especially with the odd fingerings required in those pieces.


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## wnpgguy

Skoczylas said:


> If people were flu-ent in both, Music would win 100% to Everyone. There is no possible way you could beat reading music with Tabs.
> 
> But since no many poeple learn to rea music, and tab is so easy to do for anyone tabs are more popular.
> 
> I prefer Tabs.. only because I am not flu-ent in reading music.


I can read both music and tab and yet I prefer tabs hands down!? Tabs are Faster, easier to read, clear, *easily accessable for almost any song*, common language among generic new generation musicians... etc. 

What I like best is the music/tab hybrid with music on top and tabs on the bottom. Clear and accurate.

POST 100 YAA


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## wnpgguy

OK sorry the new generation "Guitar" player. All instruments need not apply, like the piano of course. Hands down Standard notaion, tabs would just twist my mind about. 





Paul said:


> Fretless string instruments have gone centuries with standard notation.....I fail to see why those of us with bumps on the fingerboard need two different written notations to speak the same language.
> 
> We only use one alphabet for english, don't we???


Relativly speaking we also used to use straight up gasoline in our engines. Worked well then, and still does now, Right? But things change/evolve. We now have hybrid cars that use gas when its needed, and electric when its needed, *and sometimes both*. If you havn't caught what I'm pitching it seems that people out there see the value in combining two different languages to form a new one thus creating a *better* more effecient way of doing things. 



"All that is solid melts into air"


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## zontar

Paul said:


> I suspect that most non-guitarists would like those subtitles when faced with tablature. In music, that subtitling would be done in standard notation.


Good point.
And if a song is in tab, I prefer it to have standard notation as well. I can read from either. Sometimes the tab is wrong--and you can check it against the notation.

And the standard notation, as you say, is subtitles for other instruments--even if they play guitar, it's easier to play off notation.

I know when I taught guitar and had bands, it was easier to transcribe the keyboard parts from standard notation.


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## zontar

I was sorting through my old guitar magazines, catalogs, etc, the other day, and while skimming through a 1987 issue of Guitar Player I came across an article.
-"Man Does Not Read By Tab Alone" by Fred Adams.

He outlines & expands several points raised in favour of reading music. He makes a parallel between the old saying about teaching a man to fish vs just giving him a fish.

He also equates tab with being functionally illiterate. 


> I place working solely by tabulature, fingerboard diagrams, or other such aids in the same category as functioning in everyday society by following universal signs with pictures but no words. It's a shortcut and a means to an end, but it's no free lunch. You pay by shrinking your horizons.


He doesn't discount Tab, as I don't either. It has its uses. But it is better if Tab is the supplement or aid, not the primary source.

The kicker for me is his ending-


> If you read tabulature only , you are using the same eye/hand coordination and cognitive skills that a musically literate musician employs when working from standard notation. If you can learn to read tabulature, you obviously can learn to read music, which I strongly advise. *It involves no magic, and there is nothing bizarre about it.* (_emphasis added_) You simply put in the time, and reap the benefits of opening your musical horizons.


It's in the January 1987 issue, I couldn't find it online (I found one dead link.)

Your thoughts?


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## zontar

I had no doubt about your thoughts--but this topic keeps getting bumped up in the new posts list--presumably by people voting in it--so maybe there's life left. 

I've expressed the same general thoughts as well. Just wanted to see if anybody else had any--but thanks for sharing that again. You do make a good point in this regard.


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## RIFF WRATH

I am learning bass.......which for me as a beginner entails playing root notes..so far I have been muddeling through finding the required notes and very very slowly locating them on the fretboard.......just recently my teacher threw a couple of songs to learn in tab....now I have to substitute the notes myself to continue learning the various locations........while i find the tab system easier (bass guitar, mind you) I wonder if I wasn't better off being shown the notes.....I think time will tell........and this is not, as yet, learning standard music notation........


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## miikkakipper

GuitaristZ said:


> who needs that stuff...:tongue:


If you want to be on time you'll need sheet music to tell you that. Tabs only tell you what to play, but in music, it tells you EVERYTHING.:smilie_flagge17:


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## devnulljp

I was surprised at how proficient I got at reading music in standard notation just by practising when playing classical with a teacher. Iwasn't really focusing on reading, it was just how the practice was laid out. Of course, you can get rusty pretty quickly (like speaking and especially reading Japanese). Now I have so little time to play and no time to practice that I use tabs for the quick fix. It is an impoverished view of music though, like playing shapes instead of notes. You can get the mechanics down but there is so much you miss. 
I've seen people who can pick up a score and seem to be able to hear it in their head (like in Amadeus) but I've never been one of them.


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## geezer

I only use tab and it's all I personally require. If I here a piece of music I like enough to want to learn it takes no more than a minute or two to find a tab for it. Anyone I have played with (recently) also knows how to read it so it is useful at rehearsals. I don't play for a living and have no desire to play in a tux or play tunes that are not based on the guitar( not that there's anything wrong with that) If I have already heard a song I can pick up the timing so that's not an issue.


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## zontar

On the other hand--why limit yourself?

I use both tab & notation.
Some songs I learned because I figured them out, some--I was shown how to play them.

I prefer to keep all my options open.


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## fraser

i think tab is great for learning excersizes, scales etc, but i find it really slow to learn a song with it. when learning a tune i just break it into sections and learn it by ear. of course i never truly learn solo sections- i merely get a glimpse of the feel and patterns used, then improvise my own. tab might be helpful for solo parts.
alas, i can never remember the tunes for long- since i dont actually play them much, they get lost in the clutter of my mind.
i agree with others that learning musical theory is never a bad idea- it can only help. of course i never did that either lol- aside from what i taught myself while learning a bit of piano. and ive forgotten that too.
one day ill get into it, at least i hope so.


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## geezer

I agree , but because I concentrate mainly on my own material, I find it easier to get down an idea before it's gone, using tab. I must confess I've never spent enough time trying to read notation and I think I was turned off by a few guys that couldn't play a song without having sheet music in front of them.I have a hard time understanding how notation can capture all the subtle emotion that a guitar can portray .I'm not suggesting that tab can either so I find that when I do want to copy someone's song I listen to it a few times to get the feel of it. I don't see how someone could read notation and have it come off without sounding different having never heard the song.


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## geezer

You should loosen your bow tie a bit dude. This is a guitar forum I doubt many people on here would care to arrange music for Fiddler on The Roof or Choo Choo Cha Boogie ( or could for that matter). I realize you are skilled in what your into but you come off like a know it all.I agree that covers should be done in your own style but I didn't think you would.


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## Starbuck

geezer said:


> You should loosen your bow tie a bit dude. This is a guitar forum I doubt many people on here would care to arrange music for Fiddler on The Roof or Choo Choo Cha Boogie ( or could for that matter). I realize you are skilled in what your into but you come off like a know it all.I agree that covers should be done in your own style but I didn't think you would.


Well I'm with you in that yeah I play covers and use tab & from time to time I study theory.... But Personally I LIKE to read what the "know it alls" have to say. There is always something to be learned and really, an opinion is only an opinion. There is a wealth of knowledge here. Keep your mind open you never know what might get in. 

Cheers to the Bow tie Guys!


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## Starbuck

Paul said:


> Did you read my answer? I took the bow tie off! I got tired of looking like I was supposed to be taking a drink order.


Put the bow tie back on, at least it's different. :smile:


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## Mooh

I can safely say I haven't performed in a bow tie since my childhood vocal recitals in the '60s, LOL! However, leisure suits, tails, Hawaiian shirts, Bermuda shorts, those memories I've been suppressing!

At the risk or prolonging the argument, I will say that if a player ever wants to take their musical abilities and understanding to "the next level", ie when they get older and don't want to headbang or whatever anymore and are looking for other outlets like other styles, teaching, recording for hire, other instruments, writing...the ability to read music is vital. I get many many requests from these folks and they always say they wish they'd learned to sightread sooner. It's easier than it looks.

Peace, Mooh.


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## rippinglickfest

*Learn to read Music.*

I picked standard notation because it allows you to explore music written for other instrumentation with ease. Right now I'm learning some sax lines


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## geezer

I'm not slamming notation, I was honestly asking a couple of questions.I wasn't looking for an argument,even though I expected a few comments.The funny thing is I have gotten back into music only a few years ago after over a 25 yr. absence .I used to play a wide range of styles and am not narrow minded(I enjoy listening to almost anything) but I missed the hard rock /metal era back then ,so I'm doing it now ( and most of my hair fell out so I don't have to worry about it being in my eyes when I'm headbanging.)I also enjoy reading Pauls comments,their very informative but I feel they could sometimes be worded in a friendlier less confrontational way.


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## Starbuck

Paul said:


> Trust me, I temper my words when typing, as tone is all but invisible on the interweb.
> 
> In person I'm even more abrupt. Compared to me, House is a teddy bear.


I hear ya! I'm "misunderstood" too.


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## geezer

If I was treated with condescension in person I'm sure you would be surprised at my response as well.


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## geezer

I already said I didn't want to argue.Don't try to provoke me by putting words in my mouth. I'm done Bye


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## rippinglickfest

*Reading music*



Paul said:


> Remember that saxophones are transposing instruments. That means that you and the sax player cannot read off of the same page of music, unless one of you is gifted at sight transposing.
> 
> When playing with a Bb tenor sax, a Bb clarinet or Bb trumpet, I have been known to tune my guitar down a full tone to work off of the same page. I don't like tuning down, but I will do this, rather than transpose pages of music for a one-off event.


I am not a gifted sight reader by any means, most guitar players are not, one of my former teachers who plays with the Canadian Guitar Quartet was one of the worst I've ever seen. The point is that knowing how to read music and clefs makes it easier to transpose lines you want to learn, something I mess around with on a fairly regular basis.


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## devnulljp

Paul said:


> Not different, just completely un-photogenic.:smile:
> 
> <thread hijack is now over>


Waiter! There's a fly in my soup...




Are there really people that can sight transpose? At my most competent, I was a crappy sight reader.


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## rippinglickfest

Paul said:


> My two biggest self diagnosed weaknesses as a guitar owner constantly striving to be a more complete musician are my memory, and my sight reading. The advantage I have as an arranger for one of my bands is that I don't bring the arrangement to the group until I can reasonably play the part I have written for myself. I work on sight reading far more than I do memorizing songs.
> 
> 
> 
> Good point and good plan....do you work with the other clefs, or just the typical treble and bass clefs?
> 
> I like to read transcribed scores along with the recording from which the score was transcribed. The visual/aural combination is very useful to me when it comes to applying the notes to the instrument. Music, to me, involves more than just hearing. Touch and sight are very involved too. I haven't figured out how to incorporate smell and taste into a consistent musical experience, but I'm open to ideas.


THere are some viola pieces that I am starting to delve into which are in alto.......
Learning lines and rythms from other instruments is a definite rut buster and you dont need to be terribly profiicient at reading to do it.


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## zontar

The best way I found to get better at sight reading, is to just do it.

I especially saw a marked improvement in my sight reading when I was teaching. A student would bring in a piece of music they had to try & learn it--and I sometimes had to have a reasonable facsimile. 

After I stopped teaching my sight reading ability decreased. I'm sure I could get it better with some practice though.


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## Starbuck

Paul said:


> If our kids are going to be that immersed in music, then it behooves us to teach them all we can about the one cultural necessity which will be with them cradle to grave. Music has the ability to soothe or manipulate, it has the power to inspire and to comfort. And the truth is that it is both teachable and learnable as to how music can do that. We teach kids how to use English or French language to communicate and understand, we need to do the same with the language of music.
> 
> One of the ways we can help with that, (and I am making a bold assumption that the majority of us on this board are adult players), is to lead by example. If we want our kids to fully enjoy music, then let's show them by example that all aspects of music, including the written form, are part of the complete music experience.


I absolutely agree. When I was pregnant, I made a point of playing scales over and over and over. Time will tell if that really means anything, but I'm looking forward to the day I can have my Wee one start formal music lessons. I could care less the instrument of choice. I also do not chastise her for touching my guitar and I tell her the notes when she plucks the strings. Studies have shown that children who stufy music from an early age have an easier time learning and effectively use both sides of their brain more than a non musical child. Then she can teach me! :smile:


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## GuyB

Paul said:


> ...As a rule, guitarists are among the worst at sight reading standard notation. I've never met any guitarist gifted at sight reading tablature.


And you know the joke : How do you stop a guitarist from playing ? Put a sheet of music in front of him ! :smile:


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