# Everyone Except The Gigging and Recording Musicians Seem To Do Well In The Music Business



## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

The sales people, the instrument manufacturers, the gadget companies, the teachers, the schools, the stores, the internet streaming companies etc. are going gangbusters. They're doing way better financially than most musicians. Some companies like Fender are experiencing their highest sales and profits ever! How many musicians (pre-Covid) were gigging and recording full time without the support of their parents or a job to subsidize their music? Sure some musicians make good money. But I'll go out on a limb and say for every big name that can fill a stadium, there's thousands and thousands of musicians who make very little gigging, (again pre-Covid). Even if a musician fills a stadium, after all the bills are paid how much profit is left, if any? How many known to famous musicians are not doing as well financially as their social media hype alludes to?

Companies are selling musicians gear based on the dream of musical stardom and success. A model/dream that sort of died with Napster and online music sharing. The bar business used to be a pretty good paying gig. But with drinking and driving laws implemented many years ago, then no indoor smoking (thankfully), then the high cost of drinks, bars pay very little to most bands. Napster and free file sharing dealt a final blow. Also DJs. Before Covid, one DJ would get more money than a whole band would get for the same venue. The companies sell their products and services, and the musicians pay and pay and pay without a tangible revenue stream. But for the lucky few, most will never see the flow of cash reversed back into their pockets to a point they can pay their bills and live the financially stable life a decent wage provides.

What about the guitar super players? They're hawking gear at trade shows and doing demo videos. They're giving online classes like Tim Pierce. Sure Tim still does sessions. But do you think he makes most of his money from his subscription based lesson videos? I do. There are many other pro players doing this. Being on top of the guitar player heap leads to a career in lessons and gear demos. All the practising and learning leads to a career making money from others who are wanting to be professional musicians, by selling them gear and lessons. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I'm saying it's probably not the career trajectory that got these guitar titans playing in the first place.

If you want to make a living in the music business, it's probably best not to be at the end of the musical food chain, the musician playing and recording music for a living.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Even the top notch musicians are having problems. An example would be Rickie Lee Jones. She sold millions and millions of records but during the pandemic, she was struggling to make ends meet. And she was pretty honest about it. She also admits that she's not one of the ones who took good care of her money when it was there. But because of the pandemic, all her shows last year were cancelled so she didn't have any source of income to the point she was concerned about paying her apartment. All this time, these streaming services companies are making more money than she is getting from people streaming her music. 
As for us in the bottom end of the chain, you will really have to love making/playing music because that's pretty much what you get out of it.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

I think you make a lot of valid points. It's very guitarist-centred, which is cool, that's why most of us are here. Other musicians playing other instruments might have different experiences, but overall, it's fair to say that being a musician is never easy.

For a guitarist, let's face it, there are too many damn guitar players. It's been that way for some time. My former guitar teacher once told me that Scott Henderson used to hand out McDonald's application forms to students on the first day of class at MI. He also has a song called "Too many guitars" where he's actually referring to a glut of players.

Because there are so many guitar players, with an ever increasing number of people taking up the instrument, the name brand companies are doing really well. People new to the instrument usually want recognizable brand names.

Ticket prices are often inversely related to the caliber of music that you're about to hear. Or at least that's what friends of mine have observed. I remember taking a friend to see a Dumpstaphunk show. $20 at the ElMo. He said it blew away the John Mayer show that he paid $$$ for. (😆 dude, I could've told you that).


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Well said, and think your observations are pretty spot on about who's making money and who isn't.
I could write a similar thing about amateur sports in North America, hockey and soccer for my sons in my case. Only the top level pros make any money, but to get there the players pay and pay and pay at each level, as there is a huge industry of people making money on skills camps and special 1on1 sessions and "elite" level leagues that cost $20k per year to play in. Get to almost pro level and you might get paid hotels when you travel.
The real money is made by the sports broadcasters.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Yes, making a living in music is tough. And yes, probably tougher for guitarists because there are so many of us and most of us sound pretty generic. I think the key to making a living as a musician is to be as diverse as possible while also being excellent. You need to do more than just play guitar - you need to sing as well. If you write, that's a big leg up. You should also have a handle on recording and production - the more that you can do yourself (with excellence), the fewer people get a slice of your pie, or, conversely, the more slices you can get from other musicians.

Most credible music programs now offer courses in business, which I think is critical. Too many musicians are focused solely on their music and seem to believe that "if you build it they will come." Musicians need to learn how to ask for, and expect, payment for gigging. With recordings, too many musicians choose "plays" (or exposure) over money. I think if I were creating music, the only platform I would even consider releasing it on is Bandcamp.

Musicians have a long history of being at the bottom of the food chain - basically since the printing press was invented, but it has been steadily getting worse. That said, musicians also need to take a long look in the mirror because I believe they are at least part of the problem.

_Opinions expressed are for entertainment purposes only._


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## numb41 (Jul 13, 2009)

player99 said:


> The sales people, the instrument manufacturers, the gadget companies, the teachers, the schools, the stores, the internet streaming companies etc. are going gangbusters. They're doing way better financially than most musicians. Some companies like Fender are experiencing their highest sales and profits ever! How many musicians (pre-Covid) were gigging and recording full time without the support of their parents or a job to subsidize their music? Sure some musicians make good money. But I'll go out on a limb and say for every big name that can fill a stadium, there's thousands and thousands of musicians who make very little gigging, (again pre-Covid). Even if a musician fills a stadium, after all the bills are paid how much profit is left, if any? How many known to famous musicians are not doing as well financially as their social media hype alludes to?
> 
> Companies are selling musicians gear based on the dream of musical stardom and success. A model/dream that sort of died with Napster and online music sharing. The bar business used to be a pretty good paying gig. But with drinking and driving laws implemented many years ago, then no indoor smoking (thankfully), then the high cost of drinks, bars pay very little to most bands. Napster and free file sharing dealt a final blow. Also DJs. Before Covid, one DJ would get more money than a whole band would get for the same venue. The companies sell their products and services, and the musicians pay and pay and pay without a tangible revenue stream. But for the lucky few, most will never see the flow of cash reversed back into their pockets to a point they can pay their bills and live a financially stable life a decent wage provides.
> 
> ...


very interesting read.
But, by my math you were up banging away at your keyboard at 3am?


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## slag banal (May 4, 2020)

ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE: Maybe we should fight the passivity at the centre of the professionalization of fun!
Our society has made almost everything into a commodity. We are told NOT to play sports, paint pictures, write poems, act in plays, sing, play instruments or video games, unless we are super good at it. Instead we are told to sit passively and watch “experts” do these things. And we are then told we must pay for the privilege. It is true that very few experts or “professionals“ can find enough passive viewers to make a living. It is true that the businesses that feed off this commodification do much better than the players. But surely the response should be something like: We need more players, not fewer. Make art. Have fun. Resist reserving it for a few experts.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

We need another oil boom. At least $300 every time I opened the case. 

However, now that I am retired, and money is irrelevant my creativity has blossomed (dandelions, not orchids). And nobody is making any money anywhere off my stuff. Want it, take it. LOL.

So I am with @Chito -- Play cuz you luv it.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

slag banal said:


> ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE: Maybe we should fight the passivity at the centre of the professionalization of fun!
> Our society has made almost everything into a commodity. We are told NOT to play sports, paint pictures, write poems, act in plays, sing, play instruments or video games, unless we are super good at it. Instead we are told to sit passively and watch “experts” do these things. And we are then told we must pay for the privilege. It is true that very few experts or “professionals“ can find enough passive viewers to make a living. It is true that the businesses that feed off this commodification do much better than the players. But surely the response should be something like: We need more players, not fewer. Make art. Have fun. Resist reserving it for a few experts.


Well put. Before recorded music, people played music. That's why there are so many old pianos built from about the 1850s to the 1940s floating around. Sometimes they're free for the taking too.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

numb41 said:


> very interesting read.
> But, by my math you were up banging away at your keyboard at 3am?


Yes


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Artists are notoriously bad business people. I don't find this surprising.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Okay Player said:


> Artists are notoriously bad business people. I don't find this surprising.


Right and left half of the brain usage. Most likely.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

There are lots of opportunities; it’s possible to book yourself in front of a different liquor store pretty much every night of the week.


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## brokentoes (Jun 29, 2014)

*“The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.” *


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

brokentoes said:


> *“The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side.” *


I love that quote! (Even if it is fictional - most of the quote is ripped from Hunter S. Thompson talking about the TV industry.)


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

How old is the tale of singers, songwriters, et al, getting screwed because "I just want to play music, man..." Then add the drinking, the drugs, the fact that they are out on tour and too exhausted, high, or both to worry about business, and they get hosed. Almost all of the big artists did. Van Halen, Black Sabbath, Springsteen, Billy Joel, Elton John, The Chicks, most bluesmen....the list goes on and on and on.

Then you get to the "pay-to-play" scenarios where bands have to buy all the tickets, then go and sell them themselves to have a hope at making money on a club gig.

But then we criticize the "businesspeople" of rock because they figured out how to monetize what they did. "It used to be about the music, man...." It's NEVER been about the music. It's only about the music for fans. It is about money for the people who make money off the artists.

Davis Lee Roth describes it well in his autobiography. He was paying someone to write checks for him. Then he decided that it might be a good idea to actually see who was getting those checks. They told him he was way to busy for that. He argued that he wasn't. Apparently it was a big eye opener.

When Vai left Zappa, he asked for Frank's best advice. "He expected "follow your muse" or some such thing. Frank said "own your publishing." 

The bottom line is, the executives shouldn't be able to screw over the young musicians like that. But the young musicians often let it happen, just to record and tour. T'was ever thus.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

player99 said:


> The sales people, the instrument manufacturers, the gadget companies, the teachers, the schools, the stores, the internet streaming companies etc. are going gangbusters. They're doing way better financially than most musicians. Some companies like Fender are experiencing their highest sales and profits ever! How many musicians (pre-Covid) were gigging and recording full time without the support of their parents or a job to subsidize their music? Sure some musicians make good money. But I'll go out on a limb and say for every big name that can fill a stadium, there's thousands and thousands of musicians who make very little gigging, (again pre-Covid). Even if a musician fills a stadium, after all the bills are paid how much profit is left, if any? How many known to famous musicians are not doing as well financially as their social media hype alludes to?


Speaking only as one of the few of us who still teach...before Covid my job was as gangbusters as I wanted.

Well, during Covid I wasn't going gangbusters but was doing better than those who chief stream of revenue was performance. For me, teaching privately took a big hit, about 35%, because adults didn't want to do online lessons, some kids simply didn't have the bandwidth for it, and there were fewer new registrants due to the overall economic downturn. My performance revenue wouldn't have been huge anyways, since I don't play out as much as I used to, I made less than a grand in performance since Covid started. But 35% is a huge hit in the big scheme of things. Mrs. Mooh works magic with the household budget but there's a limit to our ability. We did use a lot of our savings. She took some extra work, too. We won't know for certain how bad it has been until we do the taxes for this year, so we'll see..

Many private teachers simply stopped working, others tried it on the sly only to find students wouldn't do that, some went online as I did but gave up due to latency, glitchiness, etc. 

I didn't qualify for CERB, and though I pay for employment insurance, their attitude is that I can't lay myself off if there's a possibility of working, so online I went.

I am but a bit player in the industry, but lots of folks get started with my services. It's great work, rewarding, appreciated, and respected, but it has to be lucrative for anyone to succeed. 

This month business rebounded in a big way. Being back to face-to-face lessons has meant a nearly full schedule. As gangbusters as I want to be again.

But I sometimes wonder where in musicland my students go when they leave me. Sure, some go on to post secondary music education, and that's great, but fewer than ever seem to become weekend warrior band members, bedroom recording artists, or songwriters plying their wares. There seems to be a gap (when there isn't a cessation) where there wasn't before between acquiring the skills and applying the skills. There's a floundering about, looking for a musical outlet, and it often isn't satisfied.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

They might be trying to do something about streaming in the UK, we'll see...









MPs call for complete reset of music streaming to ensure fair pay for artists


The music industry is weighted against artists, who see "pitiful returns" from streaming, MPs say.



www.bbc.com


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I agree with most of the OP, although I think Youtube has given a lot of artists the opportunity to monetize their talents, that wasnt available before. Im pretty sure I never would have heard of people like Rick Beato, Larnell Lewis or Ken Tamplin, if not for YT.
So, get out your Iphone and start uploading!


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Diablo said:


> I agree with most of the OP, although I think Youtube has given a lot of artists the opportunity to monetize their talents, that wasnt available before. Im pretty sure I never would have heard of people like Rick Beato, Larnell Lewis or Ken Tamplin, if not for YT.
> So, get out your Iphone and start uploading!


Thanks. My point is this exactly. You are no longer a performing musician as much as a video personality. Your days are busy writing videos, shooting videos, dealing with social media, and this goes into hawking lessons, PDF books and paid gear demos. If you are successful today it's not for just your music.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

player99 said:


> Thanks. My point is this exactly. You are no longer a performing musician as much as a video personality. Your days are busy writing videos, shooting videos, dealing with social media, and this goes into hawking lessons, PDF books and paid gear demos. If you are successful today it's not for just your music.


True, but in many ways this sounds like the life of a rock star as well....think of all the stuff the high profile artists (lets say, The Stones or Bonjovi) do in the course of a day, month or year...the actual performances are a very small piece of their time.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Diablo said:


> True, but in many ways this sounds like the life of a rock star as well....think of all the stuff the high profile artists (lets say, The Stones or Bonjovi) do in the course of a day, month or year...the actual performances are a very small piece of their time.


Maybe now, but in the hey days they would have a publicity team and management like Sony. They would be free to be rock stars. Record, tour, repeat. The occasional interview. Not full time on a computer 12 hours a day.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Mooh said:


> *But I sometimes wonder where in musicland my students go when they leave me. Sure, some go on to post secondary music education, and that's great, but fewer than ever seem to become weekend warrior band members, bedroom recording artists, or songwriters plying their wares. There seems to be a gap (when there isn't a cessation) where there wasn't before between acquiring the skills and applying the skills. There's a floundering about, looking for a musical outlet, and it often isn't satisfied.*


This is a great insight.


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