# Does the abillity to crank a tube amp matter?



## Geeetar (Oct 25, 2015)

Hey fellas,

Hope you've all been doing well. Sadly I haven't been able to check in often as I've been extremely busy.

This summer after exams I'm finally going to have the chance to try out a bunch of different tube amps, and take one home.

One thing I've noticed when looking at amps is that lower wattage boutique amps may be quite expensive when comparing them to similar high wattage amplifiers.

For example:

The Marshall Silvee Jubillee 2525c is a huge contender on my list of amps to try and perhaps purchase. It is a 20 watt amp that can switch down to 5 watts. It has that classic marshall tone in a small, home friendly package.

With all of that in mind, this amp will clock in at about $2,000 CAD.

Comparing that to the Marshall DSL 40,
a 40 watt amp able to switch to 20 watts. Well reviewed and great marshall tone. This amp is very loud and will probably still be loud when switched down to 20 watts.

This amp only costs about $1,000 CAD

This is the root of my question:

Would buying something like the DSL 40 sound okay if I played it at lower, neighbourhood friendly volumes?

Or should I bite the bullet on the jubillee boutique amp for the marshall tone at smaller volumes?

Cheers,
Ravi


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## Guest (May 9, 2016)

I recently picked up a DSL 40.
I keep it at 20w. Sounds nice turned down and still plenty of room to crank.
Grabbing this will leave you a grand for another guitar.


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## Geeetar (Oct 25, 2015)

laristotle said:


> I recently picked up a DSL 40.
> I keep it at 20w. Sounds nice turned down and still plenty of room to crank.
> Grabbing this will leave you a grand for another guitar.


Don't encourage my addiction. Ever since ive gotten super serious about guitar, walking into a music store is a hazard.


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## Guest (May 9, 2016)

Welcome to the support group. lol.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Ahhh, the age old question - Does size matter? Yes! Yes, Penelope it does!!!!

It really comes down to pre-amp v power-amp distortion, a very subtle difference right off the bat (clipping's clipping, right?). If you don't hear the dif, or don't care, then any amp with a master volume will get you what you want. You just need to find an amp that has pre-amp voicing that you like (loud and quiet) and the headroom/power you need.

Power tube distortion can be tougher to achieve. The amp's power section has to be sized to the venue. You may find those two Marshall's aren't as different as it would appear trying to get into power tube distortion. 20W is quite loud, 5W is still not speaking level, more like someone playing a trumpet in the room level. So it really depends on where you play, and how clean you need to be.

My main amp uses 4 EL84's (30W) for my clean channel and will switch to one EL84 (5W) for the dirty channel. Both channels sound about the same volume, both will keep up with a drummer (in rooms up to 1500 sq ft or so) but I can't get any clean tone out of the 5W setting (the two channels are virtually the same except for the power setting). What I get is a mix of pre and power tube distortion, and being single ended I also get that first harmonic, which is destroyed by any push-pull topology. The power tubes also sag when run hard, which gives some natural compression due to the tubes and tube rectifier.

Because I prefer getting into the power tubes a bit and not always rely on pre-amp distortion, I ended up with amps that are 5, 7.5, 10, 12.5, 15, 22, 30, 40 and 50 watts (I like amps). And now, with the Fryette PS, I can get any of those amp's desired tones, clean or cranked, and play that tone as loud or as quiet as I want. But that's another topic.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

You can get great sound from any size amp at low volumes, but the sound of a big tube amp on the verge of explosion is a heavenly experience. Problem is finding somewheres to do it.

I can crank my 5 watter in my apartment when during the day without any complaints (good neighbors) and occasional compliments. If I crank my 50W 2x12 in the apartment I have to open the windows because the sound pressure hurts my ears and head.

You can't really get loud at pub and bar gigs, you'd chase everyone out. When April Wine used to play the bars in Halifax most people would listen from outside, because it was too damn loud.

I don't like pre amp distortion, but my big amp will never see power tube grind in an indoor venue. I don't think I've ever had it up higher than 2.5 at a gig. It's a shame because the clean channel at 7-10 is the greatest sound I've ever heard.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Not important for me. I play 100 watters in our band, in a basement room with a band imposed limit of 100db (we use a meter). That's means 2-3 on the volume depending on which amp maybe a little more or less, even through the 1x12 cab I use. I get *great* tone, live and recorded.

I do think it would sound even better cranked up, but that's not an option and I'm happy with what I have/use so I don't think about it unless prompted by a thread like this 

I haven't owned anything bigger than a 1x12 in many years.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

It depends on what amp and what sounds you want to get from it. I'm fortunate that I play in a band where our amps are always pushed a bit (and clean) and the wall of sound that happens is glorious.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

With tube amps, there's a certain minimum threshold which varies from amp to amp. You need to be at or above it or the amp just sounds awful and won't be representative of what the amp actually sounds like. My advice, try out amps at (or near) the volume you actually intend to use them. At the very least, turn it up enough so that it can breathe. What's the point of buying an amp that sounds great at ear-bleed levels if you never get anywhere near that volume in everyday use?


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

When I first started playing I wanted that Marshall sound that you heard on so many rock bands. Marshall heads with Marshall 4x12 cabs. I discovered early on that those sounds came from amps cranked. The 4x12 is a wonderful thing but they need to be driven. If not you may as well be using a 1x12. 

So unless you can play them like that and very few of us can, it's not worth spending the money. I went through all the configurations over the years and settled on a 40 watt head and 2x12


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

GuitarsCanada said:


> When I first started playing I wanted that Marshall sound that you heard on so many rock bands. Marshall heads with Marshall 4x12 cabs. I discovered early on that those sounds came from amps cranked. The 4x12 is a wonderful thing but they need to be driven. If not you may as well be using a 1x12.
> 
> So unless you can play them like that and very few of us can, it's not worth spending the money. I went through all the configurations over the years and settled on a 40 watt head and 2x12


I can rarely even get a 40 watter turned up enough to really come alive.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

cboutilier said:


> I can rarely even get a 40 watter turned up enough to really come alive.


Thats very true. I can push mine here at home enough to make it growl. But it's true, you need to get them up there. Attenuators can help but there is nothing like cranking them. My head has a built in attenuator and I use it at times, usually without though. In the end and after 20 years of spending money I realized I cannot play at the volumes required to get some of those amps and cabs to produce the desired sounds. So that's where pedals become the thing. Pedals will get you where you want to be at home. A really nice amp that plays real clean and takes pedals well is usually where the home rock and roller ends up.


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## Geeetar (Oct 25, 2015)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Thats very true. I can push mine here at home enough to make it growl. But it's true, you need to get them up there. Attenuators can help but there is nothing like cranking them. My head has a built in attenuator and I use it at times, usually without though.


Im fairly new to the gear world.

With what you've said in mind, is it worthwhile to throw a DSL 40c in 20 watt mode and try to get a good sound out of it?

Or should I go smaller?

As others have said im assuming its dependent on the amp as well. Ill run to the store and try it out.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Geeetar said:


> Im fairly new to the gear world.
> 
> With what you've said in mind, is it worthwhile to throw a DSL 40c in 20 watt mode and try to get a good sound out of it?
> 
> ...


I've not used that particular amp so can't comment but yes, give it a try and see what happens when you try it at different volumes and the modes.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Thats very true. I can push mine here at home enough to make it growl. But it's true, you need to get them up there. Attenuators can help but there is nothing like cranking them. My head has a built in attenuator and I use it at times, usually without though. In the end and after 20 years of spending money I realized I cannot play at the volumes required to get some of those amps and cabs to produce the desired sounds. So that's where pedals become the thing. Pedals will get you where you want to be at home. A really nice amp that plays real clean and takes pedals well is usually where the home rock and roller ends up.


I use my drive pedal most of the time, or the built in drive on my Crate. The only time I really get to crank my Crate to 7+ is when the girlfriend is having a nap!


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

I use a Blackstar HT1RH (1 watt tube amp) with headphones for home practice. It has a pretty good cab sim. The volume and gain on the clean channel are set to just below full. On the dirty channel I back off the gain to around 12:00. I have a 1x12 cab for it but even with 1 watt it is way too loud if I push the power tube hard. I have and have had several tube amps varying from 1 watt to 80 watts. They all need the power tubes to be pushed to sound their best. They are all too loud for home practice when pushed. They do sound OK with pedals but it's not the same as when the power tubes are pushed. I have a Vox AC15C2 which sounds decent with the channel volume way up and the master way, way down but it is nowhere near the same sound I get playing live where I do the opposite, master volume around 2:00 and the channel volume down around 11:00.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

There are two things going on here. 

One is the amp sounding different (better?) when being pushed into clipping or power supply starvation. The other is the way we hear and the Fletcher-Munson Curve (no, it's not a pitch Fletcher–Munson curves - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

No 112 running at 95dB is ever going to sound like a full stack cranked at 125dB. Even if the amp's output signal is exactly the same except for the level. It is physically impossible - even if you isolated that full stack and reamped it. Something happens to our hearing when we are in that wall of sound. So don't even bother trying to recreate that, short of actually running at 125dB and standing in the wind.

The other part, cranking an amp to get it into it's sweet spot, is achievable at low volumes with varying levels of success. From master volumes to lower power output ratings to attenuators and reampers to isolation cabs and listening through monitors. But how much do you want to spend to get that last 2%? You can buy a lot of pedals that will get you really close.

Amp makers are away of the market. This looks interesting for home players, home recordists, etc. VALVULATOR GP/DI Coming soon!


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

For me, a 22w 1x12 in a regular sized cabinet hits the sweet spot. Quiet enough that I can practice at home and still get the tubes war. Loud enough to play with a drummer at an event like..say...Riff Wrath...

I suppose a 15w 1x12 with the same general specs would be fine as well, however, once you go down to 15w, there seem to be a lot more smaller cabinets or 10" speakers and fewer of the larger cabs with 12s. Don't underestimate the effect the size of the enclosure makes on how it projects and how full it sounds. The extra 8 or 10 lbs for the larger cabinet is well worth it.


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## Geeetar (Oct 25, 2015)

JBFairthorne said:


> For me, a 22w 1x12 in a regular sized cabinet hits the sweet spot. Quiet enough that I can practice at home and still get the tubes war. Loud enough to play with a drummer at an event like..say...Riff Wrath...
> 
> I suppose a 15w 1x12 with the same general specs would be fine as well, however, once you go down to 15w, there seem to be a lot more smaller cabinets or 10" speakers and fewer of the larger cabs with 12s. Don't underestimate the effect the size of the enclosure makes on how it projects and how full it sounds. The extra 8 or 10 lbs for the larger cabinet is well worth it.



Interesting. Im hoping ill be able to try out the DSL40c next weekend. Perhaps keeping it in 20w mode will work well.


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## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

JBFairthorne said:


> For me, a 22w 1x12 in a regular sized cabinet hits the sweet spot. Quiet enough that I can practice at home and still get the tubes war. Loud enough to play with a drummer at an event like..say...Riff Wrath...
> 
> I suppose a 15w 1x12 with the same general specs would be fine as well, however, once you go down to 15w, there seem to be a lot more smaller cabinets or 10" speakers and fewer of the larger cabs with 12s. Don't underestimate the effect the size of the enclosure makes on how it projects and how full it sounds. The extra 8 or 10 lbs for the larger cabinet is well worth it.


^^^this.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

JBFairthorne said:


> For me, a 22w 1x12 in a regular sized cabinet hits the sweet spot. Quiet enough that I can practice at home and still get the tubes war. Loud enough to play with a drummer at an event like..say...Riff Wrath...
> 
> I suppose a 15w 1x12 with the same general specs would be fine as well, however, once you go down to 15w, there seem to be a lot more smaller cabinets or 10" speakers and fewer of the larger cabs with 12s. Don't underestimate the effect the size of the enclosure makes on how it projects and how full it sounds. The extra 8 or 10 lbs for the larger cabinet is well worth it.


I ran a 6W VibroChamp in my hard rock group for a couple of months through a closed back 2x10 with efficient speakers. Well loud enough to keep up with the band, though due to the nature of the circuit it lacked some bottom end I desired and so moved on.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I cant think of a reason for 99% of us to have 100 watt heads.
as a metal guy, 50 w and a 2x12 is the most id ever want. Even still, 25w in the dirty channels and 50 w in the clean would work well for me.
Unfortunately, when manufacturers make 50 w versions of 100w heads, they often strip out features, channels etc as well. so Im the proud owner of 2-100 watt heads (Bogner ecstasy, CAA OD-100).
that said, I do think modern heads sound better at lower volumes than vintage ones did. so its a bit like driving a Lamborghini at city speeds. its terribly underutilized, but still a blast!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I think being a metal guy is part of why I go for 100W+. The low mids tighter low end seal the deal 90% of the time.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Don't overlook speakers and they're effect. 

Eminence FDM speakers can knock close to 10dB off your SPL. That makes my 22W DRRI sound like it's a raging 2.2W amp when I want that. They don't work worth a shite in close-back cabs though.

Flux Density Modulation FDM guitar speaker review Josh Smith | Eminence Speaker


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

Sounds like you want Marshall tone for the house . I would be looking for a class 5 myself used will probabbly set you back $400 and you will have $1600 in your pocket.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Better don't get a tube amp if you are not planning to crank it. Tubes need to be hot, speakers need to move air. Protect your ears tho.


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## astyles (Apr 6, 2009)

FWIW - The DSL 40c is a decent amp IMO. If it's that Marshall crunch you're after, then the green channel is where it's at... and it doesn't disappoint (at least for me). Play around with it in both clean and crunch modes. It's not JCM800 crunch, but I was surprised how close it did come... even with all the "Made in Vietnam" talk... doesn't mean a thing here. And the volume levels required to get that sound aren't neccesarily unreasonable, however I prefer running it in full power mode as opposed to the triode option. Still reasonable basement levels. Bring your pedals too... it likes them.

The only thing I'd complain about is the stock Seventy 80 speaker for this amp. Sounds like a different (better) amp with something like a V30 in there.


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

The dsl40c is a pretty versatile amp. Get it, you won't be disappointed and you don't have to crank it to get good tone. I dont have to crank my 50w jcm800 combo to get killer tones out of it. Unless I have a drummer it doesn't go past 3 or about 9 oclock on the volume knob. you can always turn down the gain and turn up the master to get a similar volume with more power tube goodness.


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## Guest (May 13, 2016)

astyles said:


> The only thing I'd complain about is the* stock Seventy 80 speaker* for this amp. Sounds like a different (better) amp with something like a V30 in there.


I'm the same. 
I've done a lot of googlin' regarding recommendations
and the V30 seems to pop up a lot as a good choice.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I've tried using low powered amps and pushing the output stage for a nice distortion sound.

It sounds great, but for decent cleans I have to use a second amp. No 20 watt (or less) amp gives me the cleans I would need at a level that would get over the drums.

For that and many other reasons I've returned to a modeler.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

Any amp I have ever owned has had a sweet spot in terms of how much to crank it.
I've rarely encountered an amp that sounds best dimed.
At least nothing built in the last 20 years, anyway.
The sweet spot can be anywhere from 3 to 8 on the dial.
It depends on the amp.
Usually it goes something like, too low and it lacks any dynamics at all, too high and it gets all muddy and spongey and yucky.
I have found it to be true whether it's got glass bottles or silicon transistors.

I agree with the Milkman above.
I cannot be satisfied with any clean tone that doesn't have big balls.
You don't have to use those balls but you have to be able to 'feel' that they're there, anxiously waiting for your command to let 'er rip.
Power under control is the basic feeling and a verbal description is inadequate to convey it appropriately.
That's the part of the dynamic of a good clean tone that separates good from good enough.
That only comes from an ample power section.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Milkman said:


> I've tried using low powered amps and pushing the output stage for a nice distortion sound.
> 
> It sounds great, but for decent cleans I have to use a second amp. No 20 watt (or less) amp gives me the cleans I would need at a level that would get over the drums.
> 
> For that and many other reasons I've returned to a modeler.


And that's why I rarely play single-channel amps anymore. Too many limitations. Either my clean is strained or I'm pedaling up for distortion (which isn't my preference, but I'll do it). My Mesa's, with the ability to run one channel single ended 5W and the other with 2 or 4 power tubes (25 to 30 W) gives me the clean headroom I want and the power tube od I prefer. I don't see a down side in this config - win/win for me.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

I love my Boogie Road King for the same reason.
Bigger application but still the same in principle.
My clean channel is 135 watts running (4) 6L6s + (2) EL34s.
My lightly overdriven (BF style) channel is 100 watts running (4) 6L6s.
My crunchy (Marshall style) channel is 50 watts running (2) EL34s
My over the top (Rectifier style) channel is 50 watts running (2) 6L6s.

I love it so much I am considering getting the "Lite" version of the Mk. V. for lower volume stuff.


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## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

Depends on what you want to hear. I like a mix of preamp and poweramp gain.
I just purchased a Marshakll 2525C Silver Jubilee. I prefer it not cranked and I like the balance I can get with preamp and power amp gain.
Its killer sounding for sure.


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## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

High/Deaf said:


> Don't overlook speakers and they're effect.
> 
> Eminence FDM speakers can knock close to 10dB off your SPL. That makes my 22W DRRI sound like it's a raging 2.2W amp when I want that. They don't work worth a shite in close-back cabs though.
> 
> Flux Density Modulation FDM guitar speaker review Josh Smith | Eminence Speaker


100% Room size v.s. speaker size /efficiency is a huge factor.
The size and quantity of speaker(s) should be taken into consideration regardless of the amp.
Let's use a 50 watter for the power plant as an example.
A single 10" with a healthy wattage rating will fill small rooms nicely while large venues and outdoor spaces will swallow up that 10" pretty fast leaving little headroom.
What works for me....I use the same head and vary the amount of drivers to suit the space I'm trying to cover.
For my needs I will use a single 10" -2 x12"- 4 x 10" - 4 x 12" up to 8 x10" depending on the gig.
This allows me to achieve my familiar & comfort tone zone wherever ................
If U R using a low wattage head and do most of your playing in a small space, a single 8" or 10" will probably be sufficient...bigger jam down the line?...take more cones. 
Cheers....D


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

you could look for a trinity amp, its a marshall clone, 18 watts and for a few bucks more you can have the vrm module which cuts power but keeps the tubes hot for breakup at low volume. they are made to order in ontario


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Ye ole one year + bump....


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)




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## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

Budda said:


> Ye ole one year + bump....


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

loudtubeamps said:


>


That guy's so ............. 2016! Here's the new guy.


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