# So what the heck are the rules



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

So tomorrow our vaccine passport mandates come in to effect. My wife tried to download my certificates on my phone. One came down readable but the second one for some reason keeps downloading as an html and is not readable. She tried a few times until it said "You've downloaded too many times" and now can't attempt anymore. So now what the fuck happens. I can't get proof on my phone so I won't be able to enter any where? My wife says I can print off the certs I go mailed to me after the shots but that will be a pain to carry around. And is that even acceptable. Bloody ridiculous to implement this so quickly with little to no support as to what the rules are and support to get set up.


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

Yeah, Quebec managed to have the app ready when they rolled this out, not sure why its taking Ontario an extra month. 

I don’t really go out much so I haven’t bothered to try downloading it, I do have a paper copy in the car if needed.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

I'm not sure where you are living but I imagine that your province would have a website where they specify what needs to be done. I also imagine that a phone is not 100% necessary. Not everyone carries a smartphone or has the most updated OS, etc. So, yes, it may have been implemented really last-minute, but I would hope that there would be several paths one could take to providing the required proof. Good luck!


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> So tomorrow our vaccine passport mandates come in to effect. My wife tried to download my certificates on my phone. One came down readable but the second one for some reason keeps downloading as an html and is not readable. She tried a few times until it said "You've downloaded too many times" and now can't attempt anymore. So now what the fuck happens. I can't get proof on my phone so I won't be able to enter any where? My wife says I can print off the certs I go mailed to me after the shots but that will be a pain to carry around. And is that even acceptable. Bloody ridiculous to implement this so quickly with little to no support as to what the rules are and support to get set up.


Print the certificates and take photos? Scan them to PDF? It's not an insurmountable obstacle.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

gtrguy said:


> Print the certificates and take photos? Scan them to PDF? It's not an insurmountable obstacle.



Yes my wife suggested this already. But my question is, is this officially acceptable? If so its pretty piss poor security. Alot can be edited with photoshop or other software this way. Is it acceptable for me to take a picture of my drivers license to show police and leave my license at home? These vaccine mandates are supposedly federally regulated and all we have to do is take a picture of the certificate?


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I'm just using the receipt I got from my 2nd dose that I got at the time for right now.

When the "app crap" is ready I hope I can get a physical copy to keep in my wallet - I only carry my phone in the car for emergencies - and it's not very smart.


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## Choo5440 (Oct 24, 2020)

my understanding is either paper or virtual copies are acceptable at this time.
Next month (as of now), paper, virtual copies or the probable QR code will be acceptable for proof of vaccination.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

guitarman2 said:


> Yes my wife suggested this already. But my question is, is this officially acceptable? If so its pretty piss poor security. Alot can be edited with photoshop or other software this way. Is it acceptable for me to take a picture of my drivers license to show police and leave my license at home? These vaccine mandates are supposedly federally regulated and all we have to do is take a picture of the certificate?


You still aren't saying where you are located. Different provinces have different rules. Your profile says Ontario, but perhaps that has changed? If not, why not visit the official Ontario website, see the rules, and ask here if there is something that needs to be further clarified.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> These vaccine mandates are supposedly *federally* regulated


Could someone please clarify this for me. I understood that they were provincial.
Thanks.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

greco said:


> Could someone please clarify this for me. I understood that they were provincial.
> Thanks.


They are provincial. Without naming names and getting political, that's the reason why certain premiers are getting heat (deservedly) and not the federal government for decisions (not) taken within their own provinces. 

But the talk of "vaccine mandates" really muddies the waters anyway. This thread is about *vaccine passports *which is not the same as a *vaccine mandate*. There is, indeed, the idea of vaccine mandates (again in some provinces) for healthcare workers (for example). But that is not the same as a vaccine passport.


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## crann (May 10, 2014)

guitarman2 said:


> My wife says I can print off the certs I go mailed to me after the shots but that will be a pain to carry around. And is that even acceptable. Bloody ridiculous to implement this so quickly with little to no support as to what the rules are and support to get set up.


Your wife, as with all our wives, is correct. If carrying around 2 pieces of paper is the worst problem in your life, life is pretty good. As for the rollout, you could give the provincial government 10 years and it would have looked identical. Anyone remember eHealth Ontario, LOL.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

isoneedacoffee said:


> You still aren't saying where you are located. Different provinces have different rules. Your profile says Ontario, but perhaps that has changed? If not, why not visit the official Ontario website, see the rules, and ask here if there is something that needs to be further clarified.


I'm from Ontario. I just noticed that both the certificates I received after each shot, the first one says "you have received one valid dose" and the second one says "you have received 2 valid doses". So I should only need to show the second one and not have to carry both certificates. I've printed them out so at least I have that.


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## MetalTele79 (Jul 20, 2020)

Paper or virtual are fine for now. I'm sure the people who will be looking at them don't even know what they are looking at. I know that many people have both receipts saying shots two of two or one of two on them so that's not reliable as an indicator of both shots.

I'm not even sure what they considered to be a non-essential store that would require the receipts. I saw somewhere that you don't need one if you are going to make a retail purchase.. so isn't that every store? Or is it just retail purchases in a restaurant? I know you don't need them if you are eating on a patio, going into a restaurant to just use the bathroom, or placing a takeout order/pick up for takeout.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

isoneedacoffee said:


> They are provincial. Without naming names and getting political, that's the reason why certain premiers are getting heat (deservedly) and not the federal government for decisions (not) taken within their own provinces.
> 
> But the talk of "vaccine mandates" really muddies the waters anyway. This thread is about *vaccine passports *which is not the same as a *vaccine mandate*. There is, indeed, the idea of vaccine mandates (again in some provinces) for healthcare workers (for example). But that is not the same as a vaccine passport.



Yeah I'm talking about the mandating of vaccine passports not the mandating of getting the vaccine.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Here are the Ontario rules:





Ontario Newsroom







news.ontario.ca


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Choo5440 said:


> my understanding is either paper or virtual copies are acceptable at this time.
> Next month (as of now), paper, virtual copies or the probable QR code will be acceptable for proof of vaccination.


Yes we can use the paper receipt or the pdf copy of it either from the website or a scanned copy of the paper receipt. As also mentioned they are working on having something else like a QR code which places can scan to check if you are vaccinated. It is also mandated by the province not federally. It takes effect tomorrow.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Some of us, like myself, don't own, and will never own, a "smartphone", so we are relegated to a paper copy. I have the PDF on my hard-drive and have a copy or two printed out. It folds up small and I can carry it around in my wallet. Short of going to a Redblacks game, I can't think of anything I might need to use it for.

Ultimately, it is up to the business-owner to enforce it, and that, in turn, will vary as "Phil" or "Cindy" is needed in the back or is available to work the door more scrupulously. Retailers everywhere seem to have slacked up a bit, in part driven by the return of customers, whose presence imposed varying degrees of demand on whatever staff complement one happened to have at the time. It's largely a well-intentioned, but shifting, landscape.


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## Permanent Waves (Jun 2, 2020)

mhammer said:


> Some of us, like myself, don't own, and will never own, a "smartphone", so we are relegated to a paper copy. I have the PDF on my hard-drive and have a copy or two printed out. It folds up small and I can carry it around in my wallet. Short of going to a Redblacks game, I can't think of anything I might need to use it for.
> 
> Ultimately, it is up to the business-owner to enforce it, and that, in turn, will vary as "Phil" or "Cindy" is needed in the back or is available to work the door more scrupulously. Retailers everywhere seem to have slacked up a bit, in part driven by the return of customers, whose presence imposed varying degrees of demand on whatever staff complement one happened to have at the time. It's largely a well-intentioned, but shifting, landscape.


I'm also one of the "no smart phones" dinosaurs (I'd rather spend on guitars than voluntary electronic surveillance devices). So far in Quebec, I've been able to get by with a printed copy and most places I went scanned the printout and let me in. Advice - keep a few fresh printouts in the car, they tend to get hard to read when wrinkled. I did go to a Boston Pizza where they did not have the means to scan the paper and asked if I had it on a smart phone, but they let me in when I said I did not have it on a phone. This was before it became mandatory, so not sure if they would let me in today.

The other question I have is - are the systems inter-provincially compatible? I am pretty certain they are not. The QR scan pops up my name from Quebec Provincial vaccination records, and once I confirm my identity with my medical card, they let me in. If I were to go to a restaurant in Ottawa, they will not likely get anything from my QR code and can only take my word that the printout I have is legit (it does have my name and vaccine dates in addition to QR code). That could be easily faked so I don't know if it would work. I will find out later this week as I am planning to have my first sit-down lunch in Ottawa on Friday.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Permanent Waves said:


> I'm also one of the "no smart phones" dinosaurs (I'd rather spend on guitars than voluntary electronic surveillance devices). So far in Quebec, I've been able to get by with a printed copy and most places I went scanned the printout and let me in. Advice - keep a few fresh printouts in the car, they tend to get hard to read when wrinkled. I did go to a Boston Pizza where they did not have the means to scan the paper and asked if I had it on a smart phone, but they let me in when I said I did not have it on a phone. This was before it became mandatory, so not sure if they would let me in today.
> 
> The other question I have is - are the systems inter-provincially compatible? I am pretty certain they are not. The QR scan pops up my name from Quebec Provincial vaccination records, and once I confirm my identity with my medical card, they let me in. If I were to go to a restaurant in Ottawa, they will not likely get anything from my QR code and can only take my word that the printout I have is legit (it does have my name and vaccine dates in addition to QR code). That could be easily faked so I don't know if it would work. I will find out later this week as I am planning to have my first sit-down lunch in Ottawa on Friday.



My vaccine print outs do not have an QR code.


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## MetalTele79 (Jul 20, 2020)

guitarman2 said:


> My vaccine print outs do not have an QR code.


Ontario receipts don't have a QR code. That will be used when the app is ready in a month. For now, copies of your dose receipts will be good enough. How thorough and strict the place that is checking them will be is up to them. I work in contact tracing for healthcare workers and we've been recording vaccine receipts into a system for Directive 6 compliance for over a month now. We've been pretty thorough with requesting copies of both doses and that you need to be more than 14 days after your second dose to be considered fully vaccinated.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

My take re in Ontario is that for nearly everything normally done in the past year you won't need it. Groceries, hair cut, buying beer, etc don't need vaccine proof.
Going into a gym, a theater, a wedding reception indoors, a hockey rink to watch your kids... you'll need it.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> My take re in Ontario is that for nearly everything normally done in the past year you won't need it. Groceries, hair cut, buying beer, etc don't need vaccine proof.
> Going into a gym, a theater, a wedding reception indoors, a hockey rink to watch your kids... you'll need it.


The singer in one of the bands I play in refuses to get vaccinated. He's a hockey player that plays in senior leagues and although he loves playing and has played all his life is willing to give it all up rather than get vaccinated. We have a practice tonight and I'm tempted to bring it up. If he's unwilling to get vaccinated what are the chances we may get turned down for any indoor gigs. He's the only one in the band unwilling to take the jab. I don' want to waste my time practicing if we aren't going to gig. The other band I'm in only plays mostly from spring to fall as they don't do clubs just events mostly outdoors with maybe 1 or 2 gigs over the winter. Everyone in that band is vaccinated.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> The singer in one of the bands I play in refuses to get vaccinated. He's a hockey player that plays in senior leagues and although he loves playing and has played all his life is willing to give it all up rather than get vaccinated. We have a practice tonight and I'm tempted to bring it up. If he's unwilling to get vaccinated what are the chances we may get turned down for any indoor gigs. He's the only one in the band unwilling to take the jab. I don' want to waste my time practicing if we aren't going to gig. The other band I'm in only plays mostly from spring to fall as they don't do clubs just events mostly outdoors with maybe 1 or 2 gigs over the winter. Everyone in that band is vaccinated.


I wouldn't even want to be in the same space as he is. I refuse to rehearse with anyone who is not double vaccinated. Specially a singer. He also won't be able to enter a bar or a restaurant. So unless you are playing outdoors, there is no way he will be allowed to play or to be more specific, sing indoors.


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## Brian Johnston (Feb 24, 2019)

Chito said:


> I wouldn't even want to be in the same space as he is. I refuse to rehearse with anyone who is not double vaccinated. Specially a singer. He also won't be able to enter a bar or a restaurant. So unless you are playing outdoors, there is no way he will be allowed to play or to be more specific, sing indoors.


I feel your pain. I have antibodies from having Covid, and I refuse to hang with anyone who got the vaccines.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

guitarman2 said:


> The singer in one of the bands I play in refuses to get vaccinated. He's a hockey player that plays in senior leagues and although he loves playing and has played all his life is willing to give it all up rather than get vaccinated. We have a practice tonight and I'm tempted to bring it up. If he's unwilling to get vaccinated what are the chances we may get turned down for any indoor gigs.


Honestly, he should have been the one to bring it up himself with the rest of the band. The fact that he hasn't, makes it appear that he's either ignorant of how things work right now, he's completely self-absorbed, or both.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Chito said:


> *I wouldn't even want to be in the same space as he is.* I refuse to rehearse with anyone who is not double vaccinated. Specially a singer. He also won't be able to enter a bar or a restaurant. So unless you are playing outdoors, there is no way he will be allowed to play or to be more specific, sing indoors.



That makes absolutely no sense. I've had my vaccine so I should be safe regardless right? And yeah I could still get the virus even being vaccinated. But then so could anyone. So regardless of whether he had the vaccine or not I could still get it from him. Which makes me wonder why I needed the vaccine anyway. I guess to minimize the effects eh. I'll bet the extensive work I've been doing for my health and strengthening my immunities over the past couple years will do more than the vaccines I got. I refuse to live in fear. I pass people every day in public and at work and I have no idea if they have had the vaccine. Frankly I don't care. I made the decision to get the vaccines and I defend the right for anyone else to make the choice for them selves. This whole passport crap and threat of mandates is crap.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

isoneedacoffee said:


> Honestly, he should have been the one to bring it up himself with the rest of the band. The fact that he hasn't, makes it appear that he's either ignorant of how things work right now, he's completely self-absorbed, or both.


His personal choice is none of my business. What is my business is, if this makes us unemployable as a band then I don't want to waste my time practicing. I'm in another band that we're all vaccinated so we'll be about as employable as possible for gigs. I don't agree with the restrictions but I don't have any interest in fighting them.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

guitarman2 said:


> Which makes me wonder why I needed the vaccine anyway. I guess to minimize the effects eh.


Well one of the effects is death. So, that's something.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> The singer in one of the bands I play in refuses to get vaccinated. He's a hockey player that plays in senior leagues and although he loves playing and has played all his life is willing to give it all up rather than get vaccinated. We have a practice tonight and I'm tempted to bring it up. If he's unwilling to get vaccinated what are the chances we may get turned down for any indoor gigs. He's the only one in the band unwilling to take the jab. I don' want to waste my time practicing if we aren't going to gig. The other band I'm in only plays mostly from spring to fall as they don't do clubs just events mostly outdoors with maybe 1 or 2 gigs over the winter. Everyone in that band is vaccinated.


A friend plays in a duo in Ajax. His "partner" has refused to get jabbed and walked away from the duo. Sign of a true rebel - or a true idjit.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

guitarman2 said:


> His personal choice is none of my business. What is my business is, if this makes us unemployable as a band then I don't want to waste my time practicing. I'm in another band that we're all vaccinated so we'll be about as employable as possible for gigs. I don't agree with the restrictions but I don't have any interest in fighting them.


I'm actually not judging (here) his choice to get vaccinated or not. But he should already be aware that his actions (or lack of) can affect the band. So, I am criticizing him as a bandmate by not addressing this with the band himself in a forthcoming manner. He can't pretend that everything's normal. It's not.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

isoneedacoffee said:


> Well one of the effects is death. So, that's something.


Although I got the vaccine I have very little confidence in its effectiveness against the new variants. Yes I got the vaccine because I believe in taking all precautions but I put more confidence in putting work in to building my own natural immunities and staying as healthy as I can. I will fault no one else if they choose to rely only on their own immunities.
Either the vaccine works or it doesn't. If I can't rely on some level of protection from the unvaccinated then what the hell is the point?


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> That makes absolutely no sense. I've had my vaccine so I should be safe regardless right? And yeah I could still get the virus even being vaccinated. But then so could anyone. So regardless of whether he had the vaccine or not I could still get it from him. Which makes me wonder why I needed the vaccine anyway. I guess to minimize the effects eh. I'll bet the extensive work I've been doing for my health and strengthening my immunities over the past couple years will do more than the vaccines I got. I refuse to live in fear. I pass people every day in public and at work and I have no idea if they have had the vaccine. Frankly I don't care. I made the decision to get the vaccines and I defend the right for anyone else to make the choice for them selves. This whole passport crap and threat of mandates is crap.


Like you said, it's their prerogative. And it's also my prerogative not to want them around me. Most people that get sick now are the unvaccinated. And everytime someone picks it up, there is a high chance of it mutating. And it could lead to another variant which the vaccines may or may not be able to prevent people from getting sick. 
I really don't give a shit, if people don't want to take the vaccine, if they want to die of it, its up to them. But I don't want them around me.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

guitarman2 said:


> Although I got the vaccine I have very little confidence in its effectiveness against the new variants. Yes I got the vaccine because I believe in taking all precautions but I put more confidence in putting work in to building my own natural immunities and staying as healthy as I can. I will fault no one else if they choose to rely only on their own immunities.
> Either the vaccine works or it doesn't. If I can't rely on some level of protection from the unvaccinated then what the hell is the point?


You do have protection through the vaccines. Lots of it. Much, much, more than the unvaccinated population. Is it full-proof? Absolutely not, but that was never the promise.

The context is here, but this chart is very revealing.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Chito said:


> Like you said, it's their prerogative. And it's also my prerogative not to want them around me. Most people that get sick now are the unvaccinated. And everytime someone picks it up, there is a high chance of it mutating. And it could lead to another variant which the vaccines may or may not be able to prevent people from getting sick.
> I really don't give a shit, if people don't want to take the vaccine, if they want to die of it, its up to them. But I don't want them around me.


Less than 2% die. And most of them are over weight, unhealthy or elderly or some other immune compromised. If we want to ostracize anti vaxxers then we should have no sympathy for the fat slobs that drink, smoke and shove big macs down their throat all day either. If you don't take care of your health you'll run the risk of dying and I guess that would be somewhat your own fault. 
My wife and I were directly exposed sever months ago before we were vaccinated. Our grand daughter came over for dinner, brought food. We hugged and kissed goodbye. That nigh my grand daughter came down very sick. Tested positive. She was bed ridden for over a month. My wife and I tested negative and never got sick. According to my grand daughters doctor she had the delta variant, very contagious. He was astonished that my wife and I didn't get sick. This is how I want to live my life. Interacting with people, family, etc. Not living in fear. I could be on my way to an event and get hit and killed by a car. Or I could contract the virus from someone at said event. Life is a gamble.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

isoneedacoffee said:


> You do have protection through the vaccines. Lots of it. Much, much, more than the unvaccinated population.


Exactly. So why should I fear the unvaccinated band member.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

guitarman2 said:


> Less than 2% die. And most of them are over weight, unhealthy or elderly or some other immune compromised. [ . . . .] This is how I want to live my life. Interacting with people, family, etc. Not living in fear. I could be on my way to an event and get hit and killed by a car. Or I could contract the virus from someone at said event. Life is a gamble.


Honestly, that's a self-centered approach. There are people who can't get surgeries and other needed medical attention due to hospitals being over-run with unvaccinated COVID patients. All those people who are now a burden on the health care system had the same attitude - I don't want to live in fear, "life is a gamble," etc. So yes, life's a gamble, but the stakes are uneccesarily high now for people who need service but can't get it. They are definitely living in fear, and with good reason.



guitarman2 said:


> Exactly. So why should I fear the unvaccinated band member.


On that front I'm not going to argue as I'm pretty much in agreement with you - at a personal level. There is increased risk of course for you personally as the unvaccinated are shown to spread the disease more than the vaccinated, and for a longer period, but, at the same time you are well protected. So, you should be fine. The issue, like above, is what are we protecting? Ourselves? Society? Or both?


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

guitarman2 said:


> Less than 2% die. And most of them are over weight, unhealthy or elderly or some other immune compromised. If we want to ostracize anti vaxxers then we should have no sympathy for the fat slobs that drink, smoke and shove big macs down their throat all day either. If you don't take care of your health you'll run the risk of dying and I guess that would be somewhat your own fault.
> My wife and I were directly exposed sever months ago before we were vaccinated. Our grand daughter came over for dinner, brought food. We hugged and kissed goodbye. That nigh my grand daughter came down very sick. Tested positive. She was bed ridden for over a month. My wife and I tested negative and never got sick. According to my grand daughters doctor she had the delta variant, very contagious. He was astonished that my wife and I didn't get sick. This is how I want to live my life. Interacting with people, family, etc. Not living in fear. I could be on my way to an event and get hit and killed by a car. Or I could contract the virus from someone at said event. Life is a gamble.


Terrible attitude. Work out 2% of 36,000,000.
It's 720,000 dead if everyone in Canada gets it. The way viruses work, being contagious and all, is eventually we all get it. Might take 10 years, might take 3. Even if 2% is a high estimate, what is it then? 1%, 0.1%? 0.1% case fatality is 72,000 dead, still not OK. 

Your sense of "health" is not a defense. My super fit, non drinking, never smoked, no underlying conditions friend died of covid last December at 53 years old. He did nothing in his lifestyle to warrant death in a hospital and your attitude that it's a personal fault to die of covid is ignorant.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Although I got the vaccine I have very little confidence in its effectiveness against the new variants. Yes I got the vaccine because I believe in taking all precautions but I put more confidence in putting work in to building my own natural immunities and staying as healthy as I can. I will fault no one else if they choose to rely only on their own immunities.
> Either the vaccine works or it doesn't. If I can't rely on some level of protection from the unvaccinated then what the hell is the point?


Latest data says that you are 8 times less likely to catch it - or pass it on if you've been vaccinated.

That's significant.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> Terrible attitude. Work out 2% of 36,000,000.
> It's 720,000 dead if everyone in Canada gets it. The way viruses work, being contagious and all, is eventually we all get it. Might take 10 years, might take 3. Even if 2% is a high estimate, what is it then? 1%, 0.1%? 0.1% case fatality is 72,000 dead, still not OK.
> 
> Your sense of "health" is not a defense. My super fit, non drinking, never smoked, no underlying conditions friend died of covid last December at 53 years old. He did nothing in his lifestyle to warrant death in a hospital and your attitude that it's a personal fault to die of covid is ignorant.



Yes and perfectly healthy and young individuals have died in the past from a common flu bug. We are all running around in a panic as if our lives are some how guaranteed if we hide our heads in the sand. Its a far greater tragedy to spend our lives hiding from the risk of dying rather than living our lives to the fullest. I've heard stories of people living their lives fanatically healthy, consuming only organic food and working out to keep their bodies tip top shape, only to die in their 30's of cancer. Thats life.
A friend of mine whom I worked for his company years ago, took his wife on a trip around the world every other month. I remember thinking, "what a waste of money". His wife ended up dying of a heart attack in her mid 40's. I remember when she died thinking "well at least she got to see most of the world".
I want to live like that. Not necessarily 5 or 6 trips around the world every year but I certainly don't want to be restricted from weddings, funerals and anything else that politicians tell us not to do, that they turn around and do them selves. If I die of covid then so be it. I'll know that I did everything in my power to avoid it, except "Stop Living". Yes a reasonable amount of pre caution needs to be taken. But whats the worth in living when you're not allowed to live?


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Exactly. So why should I fear the unvaccinated band member.


Because if your bandmember is also vaccinated the numbers go to like 64 times less likely to transmit/catch.

Zowee!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> Because if your bandmember is also vaccinated the numbers go to like 64 times less likely to transmit/catch.
> 
> Zowee!


I find it funny that scientists barely had time to develop an effective vaccine yet we know all these efficacy statistics with accuracy. This thing was rushed to market. For many there were some pretty unpleasant side effects, for a few there the side effect was death. Yet you throw out numbers like "64 times less likely to transmit", like its some sort of scientific fact. 
This becomes even more true with each variant that muddies the water even more.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

guitarman2 said:


> Yes and perfectly healthy and young individuals have died in the past from a common flu bug. We are all running around in a panic as if our lives are some how guaranteed if we hide our heads in the sand. Its a far greater tragedy to spend our lives hiding from the risk of dying rather than living our lives to the fullest. I've heard stories of people living their lives fanatically healthy, consuming only organic food and working out to keep their bodies tip top shape, only to die in their 30's of cancer. Thats life.
> A friend of mine whom I worked for his company years ago, took his wife on a trip around the world every other month. I remember thinking, "what a waste of money". His wife ended up dying of a heart attack in her mid 40's. I remember when she died thinking "well at least she got to see most of the world".
> I want to live like that. Not necessarily 5 or 6 trips around the world every year but I certainly don't want to be restricted from weddings, funerals and anything else that politicians tell us not to do, that they turn around and do them selves. If I die of covid then so be it. I'll know that I did everything in my power to avoid it, except "Stop Living". Yes a reasonable amount of pre caution needs to be taken. But whats the worth in living when you're not allowed to live?


You managed to write an entire diatribe that only focuses on yourself. This is the problem. As I pointed out earlier, you're being self-centered. It's called a Global Pandemic for a reason. It affects everyone.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> *Your sense of "health" is not a defense*. My super fit, non drinking, never smoked, no underlying conditions friend died of covid last December at 53 years old. He did nothing in his lifestyle to warrant death in a hospital and your attitude that it's a personal fault to die of covid is ignorant.


Yeah - that one's a head-scratcher. I built a pretty good 3 pound tumour from my kidney to my aorta right under my immune system's watchful eye while I was the fittest I think I've ever been. Still don't get how my body allowed that to happen.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> Yeah - that one's a head-scratcher. I built a pretty good 3 pound tumour from my kidney to my aorta right under my immune system's watchful eye while I was the fittest I think I've ever been. Still don't get how my body allowed that to happen.



Whats more concerning is your reading comprehension. I already responded to that. We can take all the precautions we want but its no guarantee. Our only guarantee against covid is more restrictive lock downs, closures of businessess, nazi like measures "show me your papers", and ostracizing all who do not comply. Thats a world that is not worth creating for any reason.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

isoneedacoffee said:


> You managed to write an entire diatribe that only focuses on yourself. This is the problem. As I pointed out earlier, you're being self-centered. It's called a Global Pandemic for a reason. It affects everyone.


Yes your are correct. I can only control what I do. I have no control on what others do when it comes to taking care of their health, whether they take the vaccine, etc. I would wish that all would take the vaccine. But I would defend everyones right to their own choice with out being locked out of society.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

guitarman2 said:


> Whats more concerning is your reading comprehension. I already responded to that. We can take all the precautions we want but its no guarantee.


Guarantee of what? Not catching COVID? If so, actually your reading comprehension is also under scrutiny. When were things ever guaranteed? Please show me one legitimate site that speaks of a guarantee. Tell me your age and I can show you with some reasonable statistical degree of certainty what your chances of hosiptalization/death are compared to the unvaccinated.


guitarman2 said:


> Yes your are correct. I can only control what I do. I have no control on what others do when it comes to taking care of their health, whether they take the vaccine, etc. I would wish that all would take the vaccine. But I would defend everyones right to their own choice with out being locked out of society.


But in the end, the un-vaccinated that take up hospital beds are controlling the lives (and deaths) of others who await treatment.


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## GuitarT (Nov 23, 2010)

tomee2 said:


> Terrible attitude. Work out 2% of 36,000,000.
> My super fit, non drinking, never smoked, no underlying conditions friend died of covid last December at 53 years old. He did nothing in his lifestyle to warrant death in a hospital and your attitude that it's a personal fault to die of covid is ignorant.


I have a 59 year old fit, active, non drinking, non smoking and otherwise healthy (and non vaccinated) friend who is having a hell of a battle with Covid. He was on a ventilator in a coma for weeks. At one point the doctors wrote him off and called his family in for their goodbyes. He went in cardiac arrest twice but they managed to revive him. By some miracle he pulled through. He's still in the hospital as they try to rehab him and is expected to be in until Christmas. He's breathing on his own now, though still on oxygen, but his lungs are so severely damaged that he's being assessed for a lung transplant. He's also lost so much muscle mass that he's had to learn to walk again. Last message I got was he's able to go 100 ft with the help of a walker. A year ago he was an avid cyclist. Delta is not something to mess with. It's not Covid "1.0" that we experienced at the start of this, not even close...


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Whats more concerning is your reading comprehension. I already responded to that. We can take all the precautions we want but its no guarantee. Our only guarantee against covid is more restrictive lock downs, closures of businessess, nazi like measures "show me your papers", and ostracizing all who do not comply. Thats a world that is not worth creating for any reason.


You're not making sense - you sound a lot more like somebody who is fighting vaccination tooth and nail.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Im not looking for guarantees, Im just looking to improve my odds.

As to the "nazi-like measures of showing papers"...Could you imagine if we lived in a world where we have to show ID when we pick up something we bought online from a store, or to get basic medical care from a Dr or hospital, or to a cop when we're driving, or to get served a drink when we're on the younger side of 30?








If you think thats Nazi-like, then you're already living it. This is just 1 more thing on the list. BFD.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Diablo said:


> Im not looking for guarantees, Im just looking to improve my odds.
> 
> As to the "nazi-like measures of showing papers"...Could you imagine if we lived in a world where we have to show ID when we pick up something we bought online from a store, or to get basic medical care from a Dr or hospital, or to a cop when we're driving, or to get served a drink when we're on the younger side of 30?
> View attachment 380668
> ...


If I may, it's more about the restrictions from normal society and the creation of classes than it is about the physical document.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Diablo said:


> Im not looking for guarantees, Im just looking to improve my odds.
> 
> As to the "nazi-like measures of showing papers"...Could you imagine if we lived in a world where we have to show ID when we pick up something we bought online from a store, or to get basic medical care from a Dr or hospital, or to a cop when we're driving, or to get served a drink when we're on the younger side of 30?
> View attachment 380668
> ...


What an absolutely awful take lmao


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Oh, if only there were a simple way to make this all go away .......................................................


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> Oh, if only there were a simple way to make this all go away .......................................................


Unfortunately, there isn't...not even vaccines. At least, not until the entire world is fully vaxed with whatever is current at the time. We're a long ways from that.


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## Choo5440 (Oct 24, 2020)

back on topic, I believe there were/are plans for a federal vaccine passport system for the main purpose of domestic/international travel. There were thoughts of expanding this system for provinces to use instead of creating their own, but most provinces have moved forward to implement passports sooner than the federal system.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Choo5440 said:


> back on topic, I believe there were/are plans for a federal vaccine passport system for the main purpose of domestic/international travel. There were thoughts of expanding this system for provinces to use instead of creating their own, but most provinces have moved forward to implement passports sooner than the federal system.


This is my understanding also.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

These vaccine passports don't go far enough.....it's a half step measure that takes up time, effort and money. OMG, people printing off their passes and carrying them around....that's so 20th century. If you can get the jab, you can get a RFID implant in your hand, a retinal scan, and a complete bio-medical data profile. No more wallets, no passes for the subway, open your car door and start the engine, open your garage door, pay for groceries, attend a concert or enter a club, flag down a cab, get on a plane. With PSS (Persistent Surveillance Systems) in place in all major cities, your personalized implant will let everyone know, you are a 'safe' individual. You are not to be feared. Secondary advantages include a 24hr neuro-bio monitoring system in place to give you a heads up, when it's time to get a booster uptake as the last one's efficacy starts to wane, and keep you up to speed with the latest variants.
And for all those worker bees, slaving away in a tiny cubicle, monitoring all the coming and goings of the proles, let's get them outside and working on this problem. Field testing with SEEK (Secure Electronic Enrollment Kit) to capture everyone's biometrics can help facilitate, if not a health utopia, at least a BEWL (biometrics-enabled watch list) to ensure a safe environment in which to walk down a street, go to a sports match, or enjoy the latest blockbuster movie. 
Let's be pro-active here and now....let's get with the program. ID (Identity Dominance) is the solution, now and into the future.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Choo5440 said:


> back on topic, I believe there were/are plans for a federal vaccine passport system for the main purpose of domestic/international travel. There were thoughts of expanding this system for provinces to use instead of creating their own, but most provinces have moved forward to implement passports sooner than the federal system.


Two different "passports" for two different reasons. The federal one will exist to allow us to move about internationally. The provincial one is an encouragement for unvaccinated people to get vaccinated.* It's a pain in the ass - but only for the vaccinated - they're the one's that will have to show their papers to the "Nazi's"*. The unvaccinated won't even bother to show up - unless it's to protest. They know they can't get in - they've got no need to show papers (they don't have) to anybody.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

HighNoon said:


> No more wallets, no passes for the subway, open your car door and start the engine, open your garage door, pay for groceries, attend a concert or enter a club, flag down a cab, get on a plane. With PSS (Persistent Surveillance Systems) in place in all major cities, your personalized implant will let everyone know, you are a 'safe' individual. You are not to be feared. Secondary advantages include a 24hr neuro-bio monitoring system [. . . .]
> Let's be pro-active here and now....let's get with the program. ID (Identity Dominance) is the solution, now and into the future.


Weird. I thought we stopped talking about smartphones a long time ago. But, yes, it's nasty how smartphones can trace you, and both the product and the content of social media are ourselves. And it's in social media's interests to perpetuate conspiracy theories and so on. It's really funny actually to imagine people discussing such theories including surveillance, lack of privacy, etc., within social media itself. Have you ever seen such a thing @HighNoon ? It's quite meta!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

isoneedacoffee said:


> Guarantee of what? Not catching COVID? *If so, actually your reading comprehension is also under scrutiny. When were things ever guaranteed?* Please show me one legitimate site that speaks of a guarantee. Tell me your age and I can show you with some reasonable statistical degree of certainty what your chances of hosiptalization/death are compared to the unvaccinated.


Nope still your comprehension in question. This is what I've been saying. There is no guarantee. You do what you can to be healthy and you take whatever medical resources are available and you roll the dice. Heres some advice. If you're going to pick a point to argue with me. Pick one that we don't already agree on.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> You're not making sense - you sound a lot more like somebody who is fighting vaccination tooth and nail.


Its you who isn't making sense. I've got my vaccine, both shots. So how is it, I'm fighting them tooth and nail?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

keto said:


> Unfortunately, there isn't...not even vaccines. At least, not until the entire world is fully vaxed with whatever is current at the time. We're a long ways from that.


I doubt this is ever going away. I don't think its official but this is basically an endemic. We can get 100% population vaccination and variants are likely to pop up and it will keep evolving and we'll be on an endless roller coaster of booster shots and vaccine updates. As its likely they'll be modifying the vaccine along the way it will be hit and miss which one of us has a bad side effect or dies from the vaccine. I was certainly willing to roll the dice this time but I'm uncomfortable with indefinite "Russian roulette". Yeah probably the chances of that happening is a very low percentage but annual or bi-annual vaccines for the rest of our lives, who knows.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

EchoWD40 said:


> What an absolutely awful take lmao


when you’re done laughing your ass off, please feel free to elaborate with some insight.
otherwise you come across like an idiot.


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## Choo5440 (Oct 24, 2020)

I agree that this will become endemic. However, until we get a handle on things and enough people are protected, we are still very much in the pandemic portion of viral spread.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I tested the Alberta system last night. Downloaded my vaccine card, and went out for supper at a local spot. Everything went very smooth and I was happy to see the restaurant pretty much full, on a Monday night. Way better than closing them down again.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

guitarman2 said:


> So tomorrow our vaccine passport mandates come in to effect. My wife tried to download my certificates on my phone. One came down readable but the second one for some reason keeps downloading as an html and is not readable. She tried a few times until it said "You've downloaded too many times" and now can't attempt anymore. So now what the fuck happens. I can't get proof on my phone so I won't be able to enter any where? My wife says I can print off the certs I go mailed to me after the shots but that will be a pain to carry around. And is that even acceptable. Bloody ridiculous to implement this so quickly with little to no support as to what the rules are and support to get set up.



Take a picture of the hard copies.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I figured pretty early on that this is gonna be endemic with lots of variants popping up. It’s not the science of rockets to figure that out. So likely be lots of vaccine boosters / updates same as with the flu shot although running 20 different covid vaccines through you over 10 years or so might have a morbidity factor to it. As for the passport what they need is a chip inserted somewhere so that your current status can be scanned anytime you want to go somewhere or renew your drivers license and such. Fits well with the “sunny ways” demographic and people will go for it. Those who don’t can be dealt with in positive thinking re-education facilities…lol


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Wardo said:


> I figured pretty early on that this is gonna be endemic with lots of variants popping up. It’s not the science of rockets to figure that out. So likely be lots of vaccine boosters / updates same as with the flu shot although running 20 different covid vaccines through you over 10 years or so might have a morbidity factor to it. As for the passport what they need is a chip inserted somewhere so that your current status can be scanned anytime you want to go somewhere or renew your drivers license and such. Fits well with the “sunny ways” demographic and people will go for it. Those who don’t can be dealt with in positive thinking re-education facilities…lol


Chinese summer camps....fun for all.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

isoneedacoffee said:


> Weird. I thought we stopped talking about smartphones a long time ago. But, yes, it's nasty how smartphones can trace you, and both the product and the content of social media are ourselves. And it's in social media's interests to perpetuate conspiracy theories and so on. It's really funny actually to imagine people discussing such theories including surveillance, lack of privacy, etc., within social media itself.


Those who prescribe to the Orwellian narrative don't like to consider that there is a much more simple explanation than global conspiracies that are logistically impossible.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Diablo said:


> when you’re done laughing your ass off, please feel free to elaborate with some insight.
> otherwise you come across like an idiot.


I'm good. The worst thing is you aren't self aware of the irony regarding what you just wrote LOL


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## Permanent Waves (Jun 2, 2020)

I was afraid this thread would generate in a debate . I believe in the disease because I know people who got sick and died from it (it's not just the flu). I did the research and I also believe the vaccine can help protect me (up to a certain point) given my health and age. Despite knowing people who had the heart inflammation issue from it, I made a personal choice to get vaccinated as the safer bet BUT I respect anyone else's choice not to based on their research and circumstances. I do not fear sitting next to an un-vaccinated person or having them over at my house. We were originally told that once we reached 80% vaccination rate, we would have reached herd immunity. We're there and yet they are still talking about lockdowns. At some point, we need to take into account the impact on mental health as a risk factor. Sadly, this issue only seems to divide people into extreme positions. I hated how this was use as a wedge issue in the recent elections to divide us as a nation.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

jb welder said:


> Those who prescribe to the Orwellian narrative don't like to consider that there is a much more simple explanation than global conspiracies that are logistically impossible.
> 
> View attachment 380705


I really liked that, and from 2009 it summarizes the world of today (tiktok Instagram etc ) pretty well. I'll have to look for the book mentioned. I've always thought Brave New World was a better book.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

My first visit to a restaurant in Ontario under the new proof of vaccination rules.

She took a brief look at my printed vaccination paper from when I got my last shot and said go ahead. They’re supposed to ask for another piece of government ID with my name on it.

Ummm yeah, this is gonna save us all.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

JBFairthorne said:


> My first visit to a restaurant in Ontario under the new proof of vaccination rules.
> 
> She took a brief look at my printed vaccination paper from when I got my last shot and said go ahead. They’re supposed to ask for another piece of government ID with my name on it.
> 
> Ummm yeah, this is gonna save us all.


It's the same old problem, tho, you can't expect waitress/hostesses, retail clerks, etc, to also be private security on this stuff. They are, for the most part, not equipped to deal with angry strangers.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Wardo said:


> I figured pretty early on that this is gonna be endemic with lots of variants popping up. It’s not the science of rockets to figure that out. So likely be lots of vaccine boosters / updates same as with the flu shot although running 20 different covid vaccines through you over 10 years or so might have a morbidity factor to it. As for the passport what they need is a chip inserted somewhere so that your current status can be scanned anytime you want to go somewhere or renew your drivers license and such. Fits well with the “sunny ways” demographic and people will go for it. Those who don’t can be dealt with in positive thinking re-education facilities…lol


Guess you won't be taking your two clerks for lunch anytime soon.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> Guess you won't be taking your two clerks for lunch anytime soon.


I bring something and eat at my desk; to hell with going anywhere in north york for lunch. Maybe if they had open carry laws here but otherwise forget it… lol


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## Permanent Waves (Jun 2, 2020)

So I went to 2 restaurants since I posted and had no issues. The first was a Pho place and they barely looked at my paper and ID. They even let a guy in who said he only had 1 shot. Interestingly, the place was packed for the first time in weeks - I wonder if the passport system has actually encouraged people to return to restaurants since they only let vaccinated folks in? It was just weird. The second place was more of a chain and they did spend a fair bit of time making sure my ID matched my passport, but they let me in. Still asked me for contact tracing information as they always have before. Number of people there was similar to pre-passport times.


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

Here's somebody who wasn't exactly fond of the new rules  :



https://ca.news.yahoo.com/restaurants-weather-wave-hostility-ontarios-080000610.html


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Kenmac said:


> Here's somebody who wasn't exactly fond of the new rules  :
> 
> 
> 
> https://ca.news.yahoo.com/restaurants-weather-wave-hostility-ontarios-080000610.html


The constitution?


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## jaydubz (Jan 17, 2021)

JBFairthorne said:


> My first visit to a restaurant in Ontario under the new proof of vaccination rules.
> 
> She took a brief look at my printed vaccination paper from when I got my last shot and said go ahead. They’re supposed to ask for another piece of government ID with my name on it.
> 
> Ummm yeah, this is gonna save us all.


It's easy to spot the anti-vaxxer because they would be yelling at the hostess for invading her privacy or something.


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## jaydubz (Jan 17, 2021)

Diablo said:


> when you’re done laughing your ass off, please feel free to elaborate with some insight.
> otherwise you come across like an idiot.


I agree with what you said. Vaccination records is not something new. Needing to show vaccination records for school (among other situations) is not something new either. I had to do a blood test to show antibodies and take newer vaccines when I went to school for something health care related less than 10 years ago. It's a pretty low bar to want to protect our fellow neighbours by taking the covid vaccine.


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

sulphur said:


> The constitution?


I know.


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