# Deluxe Reverb prices??



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

This amp isn't advertised anywhere on the forum so I am going to assume it's not a member.

I used to know the values of vintage Fender amps back when I had the money shop for them. Is it just me or is this price completely out of whack for a 1981 Deluxe Reverb?

http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/bra/msg/1478534437.html

Looks in nice shape and all, but man. Do you think maybe he got it mixed up with a 19*71* when researching prices?

Technically, a 1981 isn't a 'blackface' either is it? I know it has blackface cosmetics, but I thought blackface referred to a date/era of the amps?

(in case ad gets removed, it's a $1650 asking price on a 1981 Deluxe Reverb)


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

I had one _exactly_ like that...in LIKE NEW condition as well. That particular era (late-SF) of amps is my absolute favourite. I've owned several actually (not just DR's though) and there wasn't a bad one in the lot....that's saying something! 

That being said, even in redonkulously fine condition, I would probably only pay _up to_ $1000. I suspect most of these sell for less than that however. Just my 2 cents...


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Ouch, that's more in keeping with U.K. prices. Check this out:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Vintage-1966-...emZ250520910079QQcategoryZ10171QQcmdZViewItem


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Ya I have seen 'high' prices on items, but that is REALLY high. I was guessing around $900, possibly $1000 because of the condition. I am not sure where he pulled that price from.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

People who ask for prices like this are hoping the P.T.Barnum factor will kick in.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Think that's a crazy price?...just take a gander at this '70 Deluxe for sale at a local dealer here...http://www.brazomusic.com/.
Scroll down to the Deluxe reverb at $2149....yes $2149! Sure it's clean but WTF?? And it has the crappy coupling caps and original filter caps to boot!


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

nonreverb said:


> Think that's a crazy price?...just take a gander at this '70 Deluxe for sale at a local dealer here...http://www.brazomusic.com/.
> Scroll down to the Deluxe reverb at $2149....yes $2149! Sure it's clean but WTF?? And it has the crappy coupling caps and original filter caps to boot!


I find a lot of the prices at Brazomusic are a little out to lunch. He had a Les Paul Classic goldtop listed at $1999 for the longest time, when they were selling privately for around $1300 to $1400. I know he has to charge more as he's running a business but that's too big of a difference.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

nonreverb said:


> Think that's a crazy price?...just take a gander at this '70 Deluxe for sale at a local dealer here...http://www.brazomusic.com/.
> Scroll down to the Deluxe reverb at $2149....yes $2149! Sure it's clean but WTF?? And it has the crappy coupling caps and original filter caps to boot!


Yeah..the Guys at Brazomusic are smoking the GOOD stuff. i was selling a Boogie 2 years ago..and the contacted me and offered me 400$ for a MKIII in mint condition...stating that it was an overated amp and would only sell for about 650$ in the used market..LOL. funny enought, they contacted me 1hrs after my add was online..and i sold it 30 minutes later for 1350$.


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## markxander (Oct 24, 2009)

Yeah, that's about double what I'd pay for one. If you look hard enough, there aren't many Fender amps, silverface or recent reissue, that you can't get for around $800


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

sometimes i check current prices on gbase for similar models...

http://www.gbase.com/stores/gear/gearlist.aspx?gs=y&keyword=blackface+deluxe+reverb


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## julienpier (Aug 7, 2009)

Got a bran new one for 1300$ taxes included at Steve's Music.

Can I know what's the differences between the "Originals" and the current version?


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

i no tech wizard...but i'd think that the current ones are more up-to-spec meeting the latest safety regulations/electrical codes etc...with slight "improvements" or minor "tweeks" done to modernize the electronics...

i know for a fact that marshall reissue amps have had to change their chassis from aluminum to steel in order to satisfy the canadian electric code for safe products...

i think most oldtimers would say "they don't build 'em like they used to"...and that statement would definitely ring true...


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

julienpier said:


> Got a bran new one for 1300$ taxes included at Steve's Music.
> 
> Can I know what's the differences between the "Originals" and the current version?


Old versions up to early 80's where eyelet mounted components. Pretty well point to point circuitry. The new ones are circuit board amps. Other than that, they follow the originals pretty faithfully.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

nonreverb said:


> Old versions up to early 80's where eyelet mounted components. Pretty well point to point circuitry. The new ones are circuit board amps. Other than that, they follow the originals pretty faithfully.


What about the quality of individual components? I have heard the transformers, caps etc are better on the older amps.


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## six-string (Oct 7, 2009)

a new DRRI lists about $1400- easy to find used for between $700-850 if you do some detective work.
yes the newer version are all circuit boards, but still do a great job of producing that vintage Fender tone.

fact is that just about any 60s or 70s Fender amp is going to need maintence work before it is play ready anyway. first thing is to install a properly grounded power cord with three prong plug. then what about them old tubes, caps, solder joints? maybe a new power supply? what kind of shape is a 30 year old speaker gonna be in? 
by the time you've finished replacing all those parts you're half way to a new amp.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

six-string said:


> .
> 
> fact is that just about any 60s or 70s Fender amp is going to need maintence work before it is play ready anyway. first thing is to install a properly grounded power cord with three prong plug. then what about them old tubes, caps, solder joints? maybe a new power supply? what kind of shape is a 30 year old speaker gonna be in?
> by the time you've finished replacing all those parts you're half way to a new amp.



I think this is a worst case scenario. There are plenty of folks here and elsewhere who've put up old amps for decent prices that are in tip-top shape. There are RIs from the early 90's that are having all the same issues these days too.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

jimihendrix said:


> i no tech wizard...but i'd think that the current ones are more up-to-spec meeting the latest safety regulations/electrical codes etc...with slight "improvements" or minor "tweeks" done to modernize the electronics...
> 
> *i know for a fact that marshall reissue amps have had to change their chassis from aluminum to steel in order to satisfy the canadian electric code for safe products...*
> 
> i think most oldtimers would say "they don't build 'em like they used to"...and that statement would definitely ring true...


This is interesting. Do you have a citation for this? I would like to know more about these kinds of regulations.



torndownunit said:


> What about the quality of individual components? I have heard the transformers, caps etc are better on the older amps.


I will give that transformers were better. They were not made to 'close tolerances' and 'margins' and 'micro management' principles. 

As to the rest of the bits and pieces, most of these are far better today because our materials science understanding has gotten simply far better. 

If you say to a kid in a kindergarten class _"take a piece of tinfoil, and a sheet of construction paper, and another sheet of tinfoil, and roll it up like a cake, put it in a can of water with a pinch of alum"_, any kindergarten kid could then make a capacitor the equal of any capacitor up to the 1960's easy (as generally used in home electronics). Materials Science separates those old parts from what is made today by as much distance as a University grad is separated from a kid in kindergarten for "what they know".

Similar can be said and applied to resistors. The carbon inside may be the same carbon, but it is cleaner, more consistent, less impurities so less hot spotting breakdown, the housing is better, less porous and prone to absorbing moisture or itself carbonizing and breaking down etc.

Silicone parts have had several major revolutions in how they are made. Germanium parts are still made (not 1/100% what they used to be made) but even modern made germanium parts are far superior and consistent than vintage.

As to the origins of the mythos of printed circuit boards, maybe dropage/breakage/crackage have something to do with that. This commercial suggest those first early days were pretty poor for the circuit board. To be honest though, I have always found circuit boards dang near indestructible 

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf4nO6WQZxs]Zf4nO6WQZxs[/youtube]

PS: one thing that has remained pretty constant over time though is, capacitors tend to have a 100,000 hours mean time before failure. That was true in 1980 and is possibly truer today for parts made "on the cheap" in the lower end of the Industrial Nations Curve. However, 100 000hrs / (24hrs * 365days) = 11.4155251years and this is either working or not. Leakage and gaseous exchange and bond issues of the leads etc are the cause for this.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

keeperofthegood said:


> I will give that transformers were better. They were not made to 'close tolerances' and 'margins' and 'micro management' principles.
> 
> As to the rest of the bits and pieces, most of these are far better today because our materials science understanding has gotten simply far better.
> 
> ...



While all this is true to some extent, mounting pots and tube sockets on boards and, ample use of ribbon wire are great ways to negate the better quality of today's caps and resistors. My $0,02. Cool commercial though.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Rugburn said:


> I think this is a worst case scenario. There are plenty of folks here and elsewhere who've put up old amps for decent prices that are in tip-top shape. There are RIs from the early 90's that are having all the same issues these days too.


Ya my 2 main amps, a 68 Princeton Reverb and a 66 Ampeg Reverberocket II required about $60 total for both to get a checkup on them. I have never put another cent into them since. Both those amps are getting on to about 40 years old now, and will likely last another 40 years.

There is no RI of a Reverberocket II, and I got my silverface Princeton Reverb for well less than an Princeton Reverb RI.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Rugburn said:


> While all this is true to some extent, mounting pots and tube sockets on boards and, ample use of ribbon wire are great ways to negate the better quality of today's caps and resistors. My $0,02. Cool commercial though.


Actually, I will see those $0,02 and raise you a $0,05!

Ribbon cable was around in the 40s or 50s I think, not sure how old the oldest I have seen is but it goes back a ways in time. But those wires, like transformers, have been managed into the barest possible spec before they fail which isn't good. Also, it lets people be lazy, running power wires beside signal wires and then wondering why they get hum kqoct

TOTALLY hate pots and sockets mounted on boards too. The "made in China" sockets are also I have found not full pin clips, but like bent spayed connectors. Probably will not hold up to a LOT of abuse over time. Fully enclosed jacks are a total pain. I got my SS Fender amp for 20 dollars because the jack was plugged with something. I had to drill a hole into the housing to knock out a broken off 1/4" plug that was stuck inside it.

Yea, the resistors and capacitors and silicon parts are far superior over the 1960's but management has gone straight into the micro-crapper


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

*keeperofthegood*: 

So, even with routine maintenance, which amp (original or RI) would you expect to still be around _and in regular use_ after 50 years? My money's on the original. Indeed, my current favourite - a brown Super - turns 50 next year and, besides functioning flawlessly, it sounds fantastic (and even idles quietly) with all-original electrical components. 

Just sayin....


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

StevieMac said:


> *keeperofthegood*:
> 
> So, even with routine maintenance, which amp (original or RI) would you expect to still be around _and in regular use_ after 50 years? My money's on the original. Indeed, my current favourite - a brown Super - turns 50 next year and, besides functioning flawlessly, it sounds fantastic (and even idles quietly) with all-original electrical components.
> 
> Just sayin....


kqoct I'm not disagreeing with anyone on this  and it was six-string that mentioned by this age, a lot of amps need a lot of work! AND, I don't disagree with that either having seen a lot of old electronics (in general) and what time can do to them (well cared for equipment can survive better, but not always). Wild Bill would be THE BEST person to talk on the issues of Old Amps vs New Amps though.

I was pointing out that "some" modern made parts can be better manufacture than the vintage made parts if those vintage made were made today. And irrespective of when electrolytic capacitors were made, 50 years ago or 5 minutes ago, their working lifespan is pretty much the same because the issues that affect lifespan in them are much the same. Even if the ones made today are made with better materials than the ones made 50 years ago.

I also said that there are a lot of vintage parts and ways of building that ARE better than parts and means today. >_> how many 50 year old trannies have you seen fried? I bought a new in the box transformer last week that was burned up inside. Clearance too, no return >.<!!

I do not think that a pcb approach is any better or worse than point2point, nor the use of eyelets or turrets. I think those all pretty much amount to the same end result. But the PCB approach does lead to some lazy engineering (well, they may call it cost savings). Does that mean the PCB is at fault? No, means the penny pincher's got their foot in and left their mark.

:wave: I like old metal. All radios should glow! BUT would I instantly say "oh, its 50 years old, its better" or worth more than new? Nope, I would say "oh, its 50 years old, lets see how well it has survived, fix up whats needed and then enjoy her" because 50 years ago people cut corners, saved a buck, and did silly things every bit as good as people today do. Would I pay more?  I'M CHEAP! OMG PAY MORE? ARE YEA DAFT LADDIE!!

>_> as to what will still be working in 50 years, an amp that is new today, or one that is already 50? That is a good question! Given how poor some parts I have seen over the last decade are, I am surprised my computer is still working at 10 years old!! Oi! had another thought, and YES, I would say that IF I BUILT IT, myself. I sourced the parts, I put it together, yes, it would still be kicking in 50 years. Me, I would be dead, but the amp would live on. If it was made by any of the mass makers...


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

Excellent points all around. The question really isn't "Are old amps better than new amps?". Rather, it's "Will new amps involving mass production methods (and materials) hold up as well as vintage amps?". 

While it could certainly be said that Fender was "mass producing" most of the amps we now consider vintage - not to mention that Leo's frugality was also legendary - we also have a new name to describe the quality of that end product...._boutique_. Laughable perhaps but there's a good reason we've seen so many clones....


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Great thread...thanks TDU

Cheers

Dave


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## coyoteblue (Feb 8, 2006)

It's virtually impossible to find a silverface dr for $1000 these days, not in Canada anyways, or at least not through public channels like this. That said $1650 is way over what 99% of us would pay. I sold a 76 DR in minty condition with Tone Tubby for $1250 a couple of years ago and it took a month to sell it, even though there are very few of these up for sale. The market's a bit weird for this amp. People will tell you they're all over the place for under $1000 but in five years of looking around Toronto I never found one!


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

keeperofthegood said:


> This is interesting. Do you have a citation for this? I would like to know more about these kinds of regulations.
> 
> there's an article located here which talks about the stricter canadian electrical regulations...
> 
> ...


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

jimihendrix said:


> keeperofthegood said:
> 
> 
> > This is interesting. Do you have a citation for this? I would like to know more about these kinds of regulations.
> ...


:food-smiley-004: Thank you much, I will give that a read!


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

coyoteblue said:


> It's virtually impossible to find a silverface dr for $1000 these days, not in Canada anyways, or at least not through public channels like this. That said $1650 is way over what 99% of us would pay. I sold a 76 DR in minty condition with Tone Tubby for $1250 a couple of years ago and it took a month to sell it, even though there are very few of these up for sale. The market's a bit weird for this amp. People will tell you they're all over the place for under $1000 but in five years of looking around Toronto I never found one!


That's disheartening to hear. I've got a hankering for a SF DR and I was hoping to find one for $1000 kqoct


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## six-string (Oct 7, 2009)

hey guys no need to get all testy...i should clarify my comments. 
First i would not argue that a well-cared for vintage amp can still be great in many ways. if you are lucky enough to own one, that's perfect.

my point was that there are many (and i have seen tons) of older amps for sale that have had the snot beat out of them, and require some pretty significant maintenance before they would be road worthy again. in those cases, it is worth weighing the cost of repair vs. buying a reissue new. a late 60's amp that has been cooked in barroom smoke, had beer and spew poured all over it, been smashed around in the back of an Econoline van for 40 years, and plugged into the dodgy electrical systems of basement clubs up and down the TransCanada just might not be functioning in top condition anymore?

as for the cost. i was referring only to a DR reissue which can be found for roughly 700-850 or so used. in fact i bought one in Toronto last year for under 800.
the few DRs i've seen advertised as being original late 60's models have been listed between $1800-2000, and are usually modified (newer wiring, transformer replaced, tubes, speaker). 

play on....


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

coyoteblue said:


> It's virtually impossible to find a silverface dr for $1000 these days, not in Canada anyways, or at least not through public channels like this. That said $1650 is way over what 99% of us would pay. I sold a 76 DR in minty condition with Tone Tubby for $1250 a couple of years ago and it took a month to sell it, even though there are very few of these up for sale. The market's a bit weird for this amp. People will tell you they're all over the place for under $1000 but in five years of looking around Toronto I never found one!


I just got my Princeton Reverb from the States. Even with shipping it was WELL below the prices you'd pay around here. If I was looking for a vintage Deluxe Reverb I would probably do the same. There are just way more of them down there.



> my point was that there are many (and i have seen tons) of older amps for sale that have had the snot beat out of them, and require some pretty significant maintenance before they would be road worthy again. in those cases, it is worth weighing the cost of repair vs. buying a reissue new. a late 60's amp that has been cooked in barroom smoke, had beer and spew poured all over it, been smashed around in the back of an Econoline van for 40 years, and plugged into the dodgy electrical systems of basement clubs up and down the TransCanada just might not be functioning in top condition anymore?


That is where your experience as a shopper comes in though. I would not buy an amp like that with a questionable history, in horrible condition. That being said, for someone who happens to be very good at tube amp REPAIRS that still might be a deal. A lot easier working on one of those old amps than a new one in a lot of cases. But none of us go shopping for an amp in the condition you mention.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

six-string said:


> *hey guys no need to get all testy*...i should clarify my comments.
> First i would not argue that a well-cared for vintage amp can still be great in many ways. if you are lucky enough to own one, that's perfect.
> 
> 
> > Geez, I hope having a different take on vintage amps than yours doesn't qualify as being testy.... We've all seen our fair share of beat up clunkers that required serious medical attention. :smile:


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

My favourite resorce for Fender amp pricing ......

http://codekinesis.mine.nu:3000/price/list_history

As described, he tracks all ebay sales of "quality" Fender amps and lays out a variety of stats (U.S dollars). I'd say, for the most part, the stats support our thinking.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

One approach that I find confusing is the plan to find a reissue DR or VR, say for $750-$800, swap out speakers, and then pay a tech to "mod" some of the internals...including tranny swaps in some instances. In the end, you'd probably have paid the same or more than a well maintained SF and it likely _still_ won't sound as good as an original. To add insult to injury, once the owner realizes this fact and decides to sell, they'll see very little of what they invested since others will only pay so much for it...as it's _just another_ RI on the market. 

9kkhhd


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

StevieMac said:


> One approach that I find confusing is the plan to find a reissue DR or VR, say for $750-$800, swap out speakers, and then pay a tech to "mod" some of the internals...including tranny swaps in some instances. In the end, you'd probably have paid the same or more than a well maintained SF and it likely _still_ won't sound as good as an original. To add insult to injury, once the owner realizes this fact and decides to sell, they'll see very little of what they invested since others will only pay so much for it...as it's _just another_ RI on the market.
> 
> 9kkhhd


It's seem from all you read, those mods are needed to get the amp sounding closer to the originals they are based after. I am not saying the RI's are bad amps, but I constantly read about people who have owned both saying there are some tone differences. Those differences are easily corrected by a few mods from what I have read, and a speaker swap. I would rather just buy the original since the costs are comparible anyway.

But... you can always find a RI with all the mods done and a new speaker. They will cost the same on the used market as one without the mods anyway lol.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

torndownunit said:


> .. you can always find a RI with all the mods done and a new speaker. They will cost the same on the used market as one without the mods anyway lol.


True dat, sounds like a suckers game. I know of several RI owners who let them go because they still couldn't match the tone, dynamics, or touch sensitivity of an original. 

To each their own however...:smilie_flagge17:


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

StevieMac said:


> True dat, sounds like a suckers game. I know of several RI owners who let them go because they still couldn't match the tone, dynamics, or touch sensitivity of an original.
> 
> To each their own however...:smilie_flagge17:


Ya it's definitely an issue where the seller takes a beating. Whereas if I sold my SF Princeton Reverb right now, I would be making a profit on it.

Just another factor to think about.


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## six-string (Oct 7, 2009)

if someone was still looking for a decent price on a DRRI
here's a listing from Kijiji that still seems to be for sale. not my sale and i don't know anything about who the seller is. just saw the ad.
Waterloo area asking $750 
http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-...nder-Deluxe-Reverb-Reissue-W0QQAdIdZ164165672


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

six-string said:


> if someone was still looking for a decent price on a DRRI
> here's a listing from Kijiji that still seems to be for sale. not my sale and i don't know anything about who the seller is. just saw the ad.
> Waterloo area asking $750
> http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-...nder-Deluxe-Reverb-Reissue-W0QQAdIdZ164165672


Man I sure see a lot of good gear for good prices in the Kitchener/Waterloo section of Kijiji. Way better than any other region I visit on there.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

torndownunit said:


> Man I sure see a lot of good gear for good prices in the Kitchener/Waterloo section of Kijiji. Way better than any other region I visit on there.


Yep...we are really nice, kind, considerate folks down this way



.....hwopv



Cheers

Dave


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

greco said:


> Yep...we are really nice, kind, considerate folks down this way
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How can ya dis nice guys like you :smilie_flagge17:


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