# F-35 or Gripen?



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I guess Canada is down to 2 choices for a new RCAF plane. WITHOUT political machinations, which do you think is the more reasonable choice? This is about getting what the RCAF needs only. Personally, I am swaying toward the Gripen.

Advantages:

F-35:

Stealth technology
Argueably, possible better mission integration with our closest ally?

Gripen:

~ $40 million less expensive
10 minute turnaround between sorties
can utilize "rough" landing fields
massively lower maintenance costs
smaller maintenance crew
arctic conditions ready
Basically, the Gripen can do everything the F35 can except stealth at a lower cost per unit and with lower cost of upkeep and is better than what "known" possible adversaries have. Stealth technology is notorious for high maintenance costs. It's probably a wash on local job and technology creation.

I would also like input on what advantages you can point out for either aircraft.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Bottom line (to me) is this -- all of our closest allies bought the F35. It will meet all of our needs with respect to interoperability with allies. Russia and China may have (hard to really pin down the facts, but one has to assume its true until we know it isn't) 5th-gen fighters. And it is the one our military wants. If the Super Hornet is out (and that was the one that likely would have met our needs best), then we have to go F35 and prey they are more reliable than they were initially.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Rollin Hand said:


> Bottom line (to me) is this -- all of our closest allies bought the F35.


The old IT adage was that nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

both aircraft are pretty bad ass. however, they are not the same. not even close. saying they will perform the same role, the same way, is false. the saab is a little more maneuverable afaik, and can carry more ordinance. but the f35 has far better targeting capabilities, and communications, as well as stealth. it depends on what canada wants the aircraft to do.

just my opinion, not worth a dime, but if prime minister selfie was to ask me, i'd recommend the saab. in any conflict that canada is likely to be involved in, they'll likely play a supporting role. i think they might be better served with a higher payload and slightly better maneuverability. i really like the f35, but the gripen is no slouch. i just think it serves canada's likely needs better at roi pov.


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## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

CF-105s or bust!


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> both aircraft are pretty bad ass. however, they are not the same. not even close. saying they will perform the same role, the same way, is false. the saab is a little more maneuverable afaik, and can carry more ordinance. but the f35 has far better targeting capabilities, and communications, as well as stealth. it depends on what canada wants the aircraft to do.
> 
> just my opinion, not worth a dime, but if prime minister selfie was to ask me, i'd recommend the saab. in any conflict that canada is likely to be involved in, they'll likely play a supporting role. i think they might be better served with a higher payload and slightly better maneuverability. i really like the f35, but the gripen is no slouch. i just think it serves canada's likely needs better at roi pov.


Perhaps the better question is does Canada need a fighter at all? Are fighters still useful in a world of drones, electronic, and bio warfare?


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

In bang for the buck, it should be the Gripen. But it really does come down to pure politics.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

I believe that Canada would receive better support from a Lockheed product.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

allthumbs56 said:


> Perhaps the better question is does Canada need a fighter at all? Are fighters still useful in a world of drones, electronic, and bio warfare?


in terms of dogfighting, no. it's rarely done anymore. but rarely isn't never, which is why afaik, all fighters still have guns


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

I say we resurrect the Avro Arrow. It would be great. CBC can make a movie out of it…


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

Buy every surplus A-10 we can get. Most likely usage scenario is defending the southern border from pickup trucks and minivans.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Build our own. At least some good would come from so much wasted money.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

One thing to note is that "slealth" technology isn't a single thing but a suite of technologies. Radar absorbing materials and funky shapes are already being overcome by low frequency radar. Other items such as diffusion of exhaust is another stealth measure. Also hiding the infrared and electronic signals. There is also the swarm tactic that is coming which is an aircraft accompanies by drones which make the aircraft not only harder to target, but increase its payload, intelligence gathering capabilities and electronic warfare mechanisms. The Gripen has one of the best electronic/computer warfare suites on the market at this time.

I have been watching a lot of this channel. They could cut out a lot of the gratuitous video and just stick with giving info, but what ever.


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## alphasports (Jul 14, 2008)

I'm a big fan of the Gripen tho' it likely makes more sense to placate our neighbors and buy their product given that about 90% of the rationale to buy ANY fighter in this country is political posturing/optics. I mean we are buying (read: can convince Parliament to commission...) what? 6 of these? 3-4 of which will be hangared in constant service? I mean those Brit subs were bad enough, then they clean out the Aussies boneyard of barely-airworthy F-18's (I'm sure they are still pinching themselves in Oz!), and now we're still bickering over building TWO (wow!) super-icebreakers to defend the longest coastline in the world.

Canada needs to stop trying to play with the big boys: contribute expertise and maybe some specialist boots on the ground and knock off the "Spike n Chester" routine (ref: Bugs Bunny circa 1970!)

Just my .02


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

player99 said:


> Build our own. At least some good would come from so much wasted money.


If it were only that easy...it woild cost more and break more. We just don't have the experience/capability at this point.

And if politics were the sole consideration, the Gripen would win because the current government promised to NOT buy the F35, and tried like blazes to force the Super Hornet before Boeing started a trade action over the C-Series.

We do need to have fighters due to our NATO obligations, and if you watch what Putin is doing right now,we need them quickly because NATO might need to get up to something.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

Wait wait wait...
Why buy new, when we can buy certified used, and then they can sit on the tarmac unusable...beside our subs..


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Rollin Hand said:


> We just don't have the experience/capability at this point.


Which is a sad but true observation. Sad because Sweden has only about 1/3 the poplulation of Canada.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Which is a sad but true observation. Sad because Sweden has only about 1/3 the poplulation of Canada.


Location, location, location: Sweden is in a larger market (Europe) and Russian (and German) fighters can make it there. The requirements are vastly different.

And to be fair, the British can build their own fighter planes, and still bought F35s.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Rollin Hand said:


> Russian (and German) fighters can make it there.


Ever take note of the violent crew we have as neighbours. They already tried invading once, before we were even born as a country...lol.


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## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Which is a sad but true observation. Sad because Sweden has only about 1/3 the poplulation of Canada.


Apparently we lost all our good engineers and rocket scientists to USA after the Avro debacle.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Rollin Hand said:


> Location, location, location: Sweden is in a larger market (Europe) and Russian (and German) fighters can make it there. The requirements are vastly different.
> 
> And to be fair, the British can build their own fighter planes, and still bought F35s.


Given Saab's history at auto manufacture I'm not sure I'd buy their planes. 😕


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

allthumbs56 said:


> Given Saab's history at auto manufacture I'm not sure I'd buy their planes. 😕


Saab was great until GM bought them, then sold them. Made some nice cars.

Maybe we can trade Saab for Bombardier.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

SWLABR said:


> I say we resurrect the Avro Arrow. It would be great. CBC can make a movie out of it…


ever look at the compartment behind the cockpit? it's a sea of tubes.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

The better arctic capability clinches it for me. We really need to start getting on that. With ships as well (icebreakers and navy). Once those sea lanes start opening up there it's going to be getting real hairy. And that time is not all that far off. These kind of procurements can get very dragged out.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

cheezyridr said:


> ever look at the compartment behind the cockpit? it's a sea of tubes.


I haven't, but the next time I take one for a spin, I'll be sure to have a look.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

SWLABR said:


> I haven't, but the next time I take one for a spin, I'll be sure to have a look.


they have a scale model in the aerospace museum, it's a beautiful aircraft. it's also huge, even though it's a scaled down version


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

You know the beautiful thing about technology...when we all have the same thing, being able to hack one and get into all devices will make for a great future


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

cheezyridr said:


> they have a scale model in the aerospace museum, it's a beautiful aircraft. it's also huge, even though it's a scaled down version


Somewhere I have not checked out, but a bucket list destination for sure.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

Since hollywoof likes to resurrect things, why not throw some jet engines into a remodelled P-38 Lightning...that'd be cool


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Gripen operational cost lowest of all western fighters: Jane’s | StratPost

_At an estimated $4,700 per hour (2012 USD), the Gripen compares very favorably

F-35 A, assuming operational service over 30 years with 200 hours per year for each aircraft, to amount to USD 21000 per hour of flight. The paper also sources US Navy projections of the cost of operation of the F-35 B & C variants until the year 2029, which come to USD 31000 per flight hour. _

Almost 5X the cost/hour to operate the F-35


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




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