# I just realized that you have to pay to post ads now!



## Zeegler (Jan 2, 2006)

When did that happen? 

Seems kinda dumb. Why would I pay to post an ad here, when I can post one on any other website for free?


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## JMann (Feb 18, 2007)

Huh?? Really? First I've heard of this. Where did you get this info from?


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## Zeegler (Jan 2, 2006)

JMann said:


> Huh?? Really? First I've heard of this. Where did you get this info from?



I just went to post an ad to sell an amp, and it says that you must be a supporting member to post an ad.

"For Sale , Trade or Wanted (Subscription Required) You require a paid subscription to "create" a thread in this forum. You may contact sellers via PM and buy gear listed without a subscription. No Dealers or eBay ads"


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Look at the admin announcements. If you have enough posts you're grandfathered for a year. It's a one time subscription to support GC.

http://guitarscanada.com/showthread.php?t=29169


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I Huff Paint said:


> When did that happen?
> 
> Seems kinda dumb. Why would I pay to post an ad here, when I can post one on any other website for free?


Your certainly welcome to go and post them on those free sites. take a little time and read some of the posts on the site. We have been talking about it for a month.


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## Zeegler (Jan 2, 2006)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Look at the admin announcements. If you have enough posts you're grandfathered for a year. It's a one time subscription to support GC.
> 
> http://guitarscanada.com/showthread.php?t=29169


Where does it say that? I just checked your link, and don't see anything about being grandfathered, or that it's a one time subscription. It appear that you have to pay yearly.


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## Zeegler (Jan 2, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Your certainly welcome to go and post them on those free sites. take a little time and read some of the posts on the site. We have been talking about it for a month.


Already done. No offense, but I think you're going to drive people away by requiring people pay for posting ads. If the site is costing too much, have you thought about asking for voluntary donations? The soft sell might go over a little easier, and you'd probably be surprised how many people are willing to fork over a few bucks, if they feel they have a choice.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I Huff Paint said:


> Already done. No offense, but I think you're going to drive people away by requiring people pay for posting ads. If the site is costing too much, have you thought about asking for voluntary donations? The soft sell might go over a little easier, and you'd probably be surprised how many people are willing to fork over a few bucks, if they feel they have a choice.


You and everyone else with 200 or more posts were given a free 1 year Gold Subscription. Actually, a lot of people below 200 got Silver Memberships too. The forum has been going now since December of 2005 and it has always had a donation button. Have you ever used it? If I have to ask you to send in money than clearly you dont see the value in it. After your free year is up you can decide if it is worth $10.00 to you. Thats your donation. call it a donation, call it a subscription. If you see value in the site, you decide. I am not going to ask you. No offense to you either. But I can tell you that the support from the majority of the members here has been great. Everyone must decide for themselves if they feel it is worth it. 

Again, there is absolutely no requirement to purchase a subscription to enjoy every area of the forum other than the for sale area. If you come here for one purpose only, then I can see why you would not want to pay for a subscription.

As mentioned in my first thread on the subject. I am not going to pester people for donations. As you said, it has to be voluntary and that is what a subscription service is, you either subscribe or you don't. 

The For Sale area is an extension of this forum, it is not the forums primary function.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

I Huff Paint said:


> Already done. No offense, but I think you're going to drive people away by requiring people pay for posting ads. If the site is costing too much, have you thought about asking for voluntary donations? The soft sell might go over a little easier, and you'd probably be surprised how many people are willing to fork over a few bucks, if they feel they have a choice.


Not trying to be rude, but do you have any idea how much it costs to run a site like this? The fees for a forum that uses this level of bandwidth go WAAAY beyond any budget hosting packages you see. Do you expect the owner to just eat all of that? 

He was asking for donations, and wasn't getting enough. The forum has a pretty large user base, but a fraction of some of the bigger forums. Donations aren't enough.


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## Stonesy (Oct 7, 2008)

10 bucks is a small price to pay to avoid the kijiji and craigslist riff-raff.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Stonesy said:


> 10 bucks is a small price to pay to avoid the kijiji and craigslist riff-raff.


Agreed. Also, it's the least I (or anyone) can do as a "thank you" for all the great information I come across here.


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## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> The For Sale area is an extension of this forum, it is not the forums primary function.


Thats one thing I find, with the few forums I am a long time member of - a lot of people contribute nothing in the way of conversation/help/advice/etc which to me makes a forum a forum.

There are plenty of places to sell stuff.. forums are about getting to know people, have an arguement once and a while :smile: , share ideas and so forth... not just about a free place to sell crap. Thats my opinion... and therefore I dont mind paying a few dollars to support GC and the work involved and expense to run it.

AJC


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I may sell or buy one or two items a year on this site. It's certainly not the primary reason I visit the site.

I feel that $10 or $20 a year is peanuts for the time and effort our host puts in to keep this community alive.

I figure I spend about $540. a year on my morning coffee at Timmies.



Not to stir up an argument, but I think instead of a complaint, a thank you would be more appropriate.

Just my $0.02

(and yes, I do put my money where my mouth is)


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

I've saved a lot of time and money learning things from other forum members and "met" a lot of great people in the process.

$10 is a small price to pay for all the time I spend reading, posting, buying and selling. Well worth it in my opinion. Thanks GC


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

I just got in the mail today a pair of 6AF6G tubes. I hope these suckers work XD

Now, there are lots of places on-line that have information on these such as:

http://www.akh.se/tubes/htm/6af6g.htm

However, there is one place that has more information than most:

http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_6af6.html

And if you are not a* paid AND approved *member, all the information you really get is;











(yes they have some small amounts public but the majority is members only, and if you DONT contribute, they toss you out, its all in their faq on getting a membership).


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

You will always get complaints from people that enjoy what once was free and you now have to pay for. Its natural to complain about it. In this case it really isn't a significant amount to worry about. I'm going to enjoy my free year then I'm going to support the site. I don't sell much, I don't even think anything I've listed has sold. But its nice to know the option is there if I need it. This might even make the Buy and sell area a little safer to deal with. You most likely won't get too many "fly by nighters" posting there.


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## six-string (Oct 7, 2009)

can we start an argument about riff-raff? :smile:


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## Zeegler (Jan 2, 2006)

torndownunit said:


> Not trying to be rude, but do you have any idea how much it costs to run a site like this? The fees for a forum that uses this level of bandwidth go WAAAY beyond any budget hosting packages you see. Do you expect the owner to just eat all of that?
> 
> He was asking for donations, and wasn't getting enough. The forum has a pretty large user base, but a fraction of some of the bigger forums. Donations aren't enough.


Yes, I do have an idea what it costs, and if I was to create my own forum, I would make sure I was aware of the costs, and time commitment ahead of time. Running a forum is either a hobby, or a business. Hobbies cost money, and businesses make money. 

Asking for donations should be enough, and it's up to the folks who are regular visitors to step up to the plate, and ante up some of their cash. I mention this in the other thread. There's all kinds of people popping up saying how much they love the forum, and that paying $10-20 isn't a big deal, and yet none of them volunteered to pay before. Why is that?


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

I Huff Paint said:


> Yes, I do have an idea what it costs, and if I was to create my own forum, I would make sure I was aware of the costs, and time commitment ahead of time. Running a forum is either a hobby, or a business. Hobbies cost money, and businesses make money.
> 
> Asking for donations should be enough, and it's up to the folks who are regular visitors to step up to the plate, and ante up some of their cash. I mention this in the other thread. There's all kinds of people popping up saying how much they love the forum, and that paying $10-20 isn't a big deal, and yet none of them volunteered to pay before. Why is that?


Uh, a lot of them have. I guarantee a large portion of the regular users have. That doesn't account for what happens if 100 new users join in a month though and aren't paying anything. I know I have donated in the past before. Even though I am 'grandfathered' in for a year, I am going to pay anyway. 

I am no an owner, but I don't think I am going out on a limb saying if the forum could have been run on only donations, it would have stayed that way. Obviously the donations weren't enough to keep up though. I mean, you have been here long enough to know the people in charge run a great forum here and are good guys. They aren't trying to pull anything over on anyone, and there is no way even with the subscriptions they will be making much profit if any. As far as I know (from what we have been told), the membership took a couple of huge leaps in growth. The options were either to kill the forum, or figure out some way to pay for it. The bottom line is donations weren't covering it. 

Also, you gotta remember the Gearpage has the same subscription policy as well. And TDPRI gets by with their membership drive. Harmony Central is owned by another huge company. Being larger US based forums, they also have way more options for sponsors. Any of the big forums have had to come up with some type of way to offset costs because as they grow, the donations just don't cover it. 

Do you have other suggestions? Does anyone else have any suggestions? 

I personally suggested in the past a donation raffle like TDPRI has. Where the sponsors donate prizes. But I guess that violates some Canadian laws related to 'online lotteries'. I personally think calling it a 'donation drive' gets around this, and I still think they should pursue the plan. The sponsors and dealers on this forum do very well from the membership base IMO and would gladly donate some prizes.

Another option is an advertising drive. Get members to suggest that companies advertise here.

We are lucky to have this forum in the first place and have someone willing to do the work on it.


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## Zeegler (Jan 2, 2006)

torndownunit said:


> Uh, a lot of them have. I guarantee a large portion of the regular users have.


Here is a direct quote from the other thread from the forum owner.

"2) The donation system has generated roughly $60.00 in 2009 (thanks to those that did donate)"

So you are obviously mistaken.

We can debate this all day, but the fact remains that many people have come forward in support of the subscription, and the question remains: where were they before? $60? Really? 

On my regular forum, I pay $20 a year. It is not a requirement. Paid users have access to an extra unmoderated forum area, and that is it. I rarely visit the area myself, but I am a regular on the forum, and have lots of friends there. Basically, it's how many people feel about this forum. 

Don't get me wrong here, I think it's great that many users are willing to pay. It's just a shame that it had to be made mandatory, and in this case I suppose I can't blame the forum owner.

One more thing I should mention. In my opinion, being able to view the for-sale ads is just as much a benefit as being able to post ads.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

I Huff Paint said:


> Here is a direct quote from the other thread from the forum owner.
> 
> "2) The donation system has generated roughly $60.00 in 2009 (thanks to those that did donate)"
> 
> ...


You are correct, regular users probably haven't donated multiple times. I know I only have twice. I personally think, as mentioned, the problem is a huge influx of new users. This forum's membership has increased by a massive amount, very quickly, while I have been a member. You can't expect regulars to 'pick up the slack' for all of that. If every user of the forum donated at least once, things would probably be fine. But most won't.

I agree with you about the viewing the ads though. Non-subscribers can still view "WTB" ads and just PM the person. But, it's set up the same on other forums. There's a bit of a catch 22 with this forums size as well. It's getting a lot bigger, but I don't know if it's big enough to even generate much money through subscriptions based on access to that section. It works on Gearpage, but it has one of the largest user bases out of any forum, and a very established Classifieds section. But, I guess even the subscription fees for just the regular users may be enough to cover expenses. I am just curious how much money it will bring if from new users.

It all comes back coming up with a good solution though. It's great that people pay on the forum you mention, but donations won't keep very many large forums afloat. It was be nice if they did, but it just doesn't seem to be realistic. So what is the answer?


I don't want this post to make anyone mad, or 'pass the buck'. But I have to say, what I find saddest about the $60 donation total is that the amount should be 10x that based on dealer donations alone. A lot of dealers and stores REALLY benefit from this forum and it's userbase. IMO they should be either doing a banner ad, or donating a decent amount a year. Most of the make a heck of a lot more than $60 a year from the forum. I know of lot of them also donate their knowledge and help out forum users, which is worth as much as the money. But that isn't all of them.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

I just want to point out that one of the MAJOR (if not THE biggest) bass forum, Talkbass, uses the exact same model for their memberships. Free to browse and post throughout the site, paid if you want to post in the classifieds (+ other benefits).

There's also a large Fender discussion group that does the same thing. 

If this is the format GC has to go to to keep the site going, that's fine. It's not public property, it's been paid for out of his pocket. 

And I know that the hosting to enable the database scripts to run these kind of forum code packages are really expensive. Not to mention the bandwidth.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> I just want to point out that one of the MAJOR (if not THE biggest) bass forum, Talkbass, uses the exact same model for their memberships. Free to browse and post throughout the site, paid if you want to post in the classifieds (+ other benefits).
> 
> There's also a large Fender discussion group that does the same thing.
> 
> ...


Yup. I think TGP is the same. What is the problem?

I think this thread should be banished under the rules of the Forum.

*9) Please do not comment on asking prices*

:smile:


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## Peter (Mar 25, 2008)

This whole thread is ridiculous. You've gotta respect GC for letting it continue on when he's paying for this forum out of his own pocket.

Making this thread was a dick move. Serious.


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## Greenbacker (Mar 29, 2007)

Amen. If you don't want to pay for a service, go elsewhere. Kijiji and CL are free and they're crap. You should be thankful for the 1 year grace period.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I Huff Paint said:


> When did that happen?
> 
> Seems kinda dumb. Why would I pay to post an ad here, when I can post one on any other website for free?


Paul, you are a member of the JCF, and it has the same rules, yet you didnt raise a stink over there?..............


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Accept2 said:


> Paul, you are a member of the JCF, and it has the same rules, yet you didnt raise a stink over there?..............


I guess it's my fault. I should have called it Platinum and only had the $20 level and he would have been fine with it. 9kkhhd The fact of the matter is folks that most all of them have some kind of subscription now or they will in the future. Once you hit a certain level you more or less have to. It just gets expensive and the time involved is crazy.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Peter said:


> This whole thread is ridiculous. You've gotta respect GC for letting it continue on when he's paying for this forum out of his own pocket.
> 
> Making this thread was a dick move. Serious.


I don't think this thread is ridiculous at all. Someone inquired about why all of a sudden the Buy and Sell went to a paid format and the opportunity was presented for Guitars Canada to explain why as well as other community members to weigh in their opinions. Of course the senior members are going to understand the "why's". Those that don't take as active a role are not going to see it the same way. Of course after this thread I hope they understand better the need for the new policy.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

torndownunit said:


> I personally suggested in the past a donation raffle like TDPRI has. Where the sponsors donate prizes. But I guess that violates some Canadian laws related to 'online lotteries'. I personally think calling it a 'donation drive' gets around this, and I still think they should pursue the plan. The sponsors and dealers on this forum do very well from the membership base IMO and would gladly donate some prizes.


Yeah, that would be really cool. I donated in the last one in hopes of winning the Cabronita, but no dice. I'm sure there's a way to legitimize it up here.



I Huff Paint said:


> On my regular forum, I pay $20 a year. It is not a requirement. Paid users have access to an extra unmoderated forum area, and that is it. I rarely visit the area myself, but I am a regular on the forum, and have lots of friends there. Basically, it's how many people feel about this forum.
> 
> Don't get me wrong here, I think it's great that many users are willing to pay. It's just a shame that it had to be made mandatory, and in this case I suppose I can't blame the forum owner.


It's not mandatory, it's optional for those who want to use the buy/sell. Obviously your other forum is more important to you, and that makes it worthwhile to you to donate there, even though you don't use the private sections. That doesn't explain why, if GC isn't so important to you, you're choosing to make it an issue.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

For F*** Sake.

I can't believe this is even being discussed.

I question whether this small amount will cover the costs of running the board, but I hope so. At least put a dent in it.

$10?!? What's that, about the cost of a drink at the bar? C'mon.

Even though my account was grandfathered, I sent in the $20 anyway.

I can't recall if I've ever sold anything on here, maybe, but I certainly have bought a few things on here, and saved a bunch of money. 

And most importantly, met some great people and read some very good information.

We don't have much that is truly 'Canadian', step up and help to keep this little corner of Canadiana running.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

GuitarsCanada...without wishing to "pry" into your finances, would you consider giving the forum members an update as to how the donations, etc are doing. 

If, by chance, the donations, etc are still not covering expenses, it would be helpful for all of us to know.

This forum should not be costing you money from your own pocket !!

Thanks for considering this.

Cheers

Dave


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

greco said:


> GuitarsCanada...without wishing to "pry" into your finances, would you consider giving the forum members an update as to how the donations, etc are doing.
> 
> If, by chance, the donations, etc are still not covering expenses, it would be helpful for all of us to know.
> 
> ...


I am actually very pleased with the response to the subs. There were several members that were given Gold and sent in a donation anyway. I dod not keep track of those however. But since starting the subs there have been 43 people sign up for the base subsciption. So I am fairly confident that as we move along, and if the growth continues as it has over the past 2 years that there will be no issue with costs.

As some of you are aware I have had to make other arrangements for hosting as we outgrew what the current host can provide within a reasonable amount per year. We will be making the move late Jan or early Feb sometime

PS: I would like to add that if we come to the point where this is making money, I would have no issue ay all in using some of that profit to support/promote/sponsor some of the things that you guys are trying to get going, like the amp builders course and maybe some future gear fest etc. Rest assured I will give back to the community here as I always have.


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## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

dwagar said:


> We don't have much that is truly 'Canadian', step up and help to keep this little corner of Canadiana running.


Amen! to that!:rockon2:

AJC


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

dwagar said:


> For F*** Sake.
> 
> I can't believe this is even being discussed.
> 
> ...


I don't think this is a hostile thread at all. It's helping a lot of people understand what goes on behind the scenes with the forum. I that is why the thread has been allowed to continue.

It's already been decided that the majority of us do not mind paying in the slightest. But it is good to have a thread like explaining the details, and the future direction of the forum.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

torndownunit said:


> It's already been decided that the majority of us do not mind paying in the slightest.


With 5,800 members, my guess is that it is a very tiny minority that actually contributes. Certainly not the majority. The push for membership contributions has been very low key, and I think that's important to maintain. I've seen agressive membership policies kill other boards. Often a very small minority will be very vocal about how much value there is on a board and how cheap a $10 or $25 or $50 membership fee is. They may be right, but if the board owner takes that as advice and implements aggressive membership requirements, it often ends up forcing out the 99% of people who aren't as committed to the concept. Then the board becomes marginal or dies. I'm not saying that's what's going on here. To the contrary. I think it's important to keep in mind, though.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

nkjanssen said:


> With 5,800 members, my guess is that it is a very tiny minority that actually contributes. Certainly not the majority. The push for membership contributions has been very low key, and I think that's important to maintain. I've seen agressive membership policies kill other boards. Often a very small minority will be very vocal about how much value there is on a board and how cheap a $10 or $25 or $50 membership fee is. They may be right, but if the board owner takes that as advice and implements aggressive membership requirements, it often ends up forcing out the 99% of people who aren't as committed to the concept. Then the board becomes marginal or dies. I'm not saying that's what's going on here. To the contrary. I think it's important to keep in mind, though.


You will never see any agressive tactics here. Its there for people to read, consider and act. Only time will tell if it was the right decision to make. But one thing is certain, the only area that requires a subscription is the For Sale area so if the board dries up and dies then it will be a clear indication of what people were most intersted in. If that turns out to be the case (which I doubt) then I would almost be glad, I am not going to put in 12 hours a day working on this thing to run a for sale bulletin board.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

nkjanssen said:


> *With 5,800 members, my guess is that it is a very tiny minority that actually contributes.* Certainly not the majority. The push for membership contributions has been very low key, and I think that's important to maintain. I've seen agressive membership policies kill other boards. Often a very small minority will be very vocal about how much value there is on a board and how cheap a $10 or $25 or $50 membership fee is. They may be right, but if the board owner takes that as advice and implements aggressive membership requirements, it often ends up forcing out the 99% of people who aren't as committed to the concept. Then the board becomes marginal or dies. I'm not saying that's what's going on here. To the contrary. I think it's important to keep in mind, though.


I meant the majority of the people in this thread. Who also happen to be a good chunk of the regular posters. Not even a fraction of the 5,800 members are regular posters, or will ever sell an item in the classifieds anyway.

And as mentioned above, I don't really see how that subscription fee could possibly be seen as aggressive. It only prevents you full access to one area of the site. You are still completely free to view that section of the site as well, just not post in it. As pointed out in other threads, several other large forums have the same policy. I'd venture to say a huge amount of users won't even notice the change. This thread clearly shows that even some regular users didn't notice the change until now.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

torndownunit said:


> ...I don't really see how that subscription fee could possibly be seen as aggressive.


I didn't say it was.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

nkjanssen said:


> With 5,800 members, my guess is that it is a very tiny minority that actually contributes. Certainly not the majority. The push for membership contributions has been very low key, and I think that's important to maintain. * I've seen agressive membership policies kill other boards.* Often a very small minority will be very vocal about how much value there is on a board and how cheap a $10 or $25 or $50 membership fee is. They may be right, but if the board owner takes that as advice and implements aggressive membership requirements, it often ends up forcing out the 99% of people who aren't as committed to the concept. Then the board becomes marginal or dies. I'm not saying that's what's going on here. To the contrary. I think it's important to keep in mind, though.


You don't see how one could think that from your post?


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## LowWatt (Jun 27, 2007)

torndownunit said:


> You don't see how one could think that from your post?


But she ended it with this line :



> I'm not saying that's what's going on here. To the contrary. I think it's important to keep in mind, though.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

torndownunit said:


> I don't think this is a hostile thread at all.



Its gotten a little border line here and there. This thread should probably get locked I think any newcomer should get the idea by now and there is no sense berating them with comments like "this thread is ridiculous"


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

guitarman2 said:


> Its gotten a little border line here and there. This thread should probably get locked I think any newcomer should get the idea by now and there is no sense berating them with comments like "this thread is ridiculous"


I think you are right about locking it down. There is no sense in debating it. It is done and will stay in place. Hopefully anyone that wanted to get a word in has done so.


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