# Need help sound goes trough kill switch



## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

Hey guy’s I've got a little problem going on here. I have a vantage 718 dt all moded . Its a hss style but each pick up has its own on/off 2 way switch. When all 3 switch are off and the volume at 10 . Lets say on hi gain channel , the sound still goes trought but like in clean . I tought first the volume pot was bad so replaced it , nothing . When volume is at 0 everything is quiet. Wiring should be good has wich original pup it was not doing this but now i have a tb-4 and 2 hot rails on it . Any suggestions as to why the signal still goes when the switch are all off ? Thanks


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Lots of potential issues - kinda hard to diagnose blind. First thing that comes to mind for me is either one of the kill switches is wonky (it is not uncommon for a switch to fail in a way where one throw is always on or kinda/partially on in the off setting) or a bad ground.

First thing would be to check all the pup kill switches for continuity in both settings. Do you have a multimeter?


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Lots of potential issues - kinda hard to diagnose blind. First thing that comes to mind for me is either one of the kill switches is wonky (it is not uncommon for a switch to fail in a way where one throw is always on or kinda/partially on in the off setting) or a bad ground.
> 
> First thing would be to check all the pup kill switches for continuity in both settings. Do you have a multimeter?


Yep i do have one , so that could be a switch going out ? For a guitar 30 years old not uncommon


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

ground has popped off somewhere.


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

knight_yyz said:


> ground has popped off somewhere.


I redid all the ground just to be sure still do it  no buzz , no hum just signal still going trought


knight_yyz said:


> ground has popped off somewhere.


double checked ground they all good


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

Kramerdude44 said:


> I redid all the ground just to be sure still do it  no buzz , no hum just signal still going trought
> 
> double checked ground they all good


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Lots of potential issues - kinda hard to diagnose blind. First thing that comes to mind for me is either one of the kill switches is wonky (it is not uncommon for a switch to fail in a way where one throw is always on or kinda/partially on in the off setting) or a bad ground.
> 
> First thing would be to check all the pup kill switches for continuity in both settings. Do you have a multimeter?


Okay just checked , no signal going from the switches when off , no signal from the vol pot at 0 to the jack either. However someone stated ground issue . Everything in this guitar is correctly grounded , however should i add ground to the switch when they are off ?


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

A kill switch usually works by shunting the signal to ground. It shorts out the signal. It's possible the switch is toast and allowing the signal to pass. Can you circle the kill switch? You ave multiple toggles in there


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Double-check all connections from an accurate wiring diagram and check-off as you proceed.


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

knight_yyz said:


> A kill switch usually works by shunting the signal to ground. It shorts out the signal. It's possible the switch is toast and allowing the signal to pass. Can you circle the kill switch? You ave multiple toggles in there


Well its not really a « kill switch « Its a 2 way on/on to activate and deactivated the pick up . There is 4 of them and they all tested good on the multimeter


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

Paul Running said:


> Double-check all connections from an accurate wiring diagram and check-off as you proceed.





Paul Running said:


> Double-check all connections from an accurate wiring diagram and check-off as you proceed.


Double checked still can’t find , multimeter say no signal from switch to output when off .


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

The 4th switch, DPDT way over on the right by itself is a tone defeat - have you gone through that one? Seems like 1 pole is unused (why DPDT when the rest are SPST) and it looks like there's been some modding in there so a bit suspect. Also what's up with tall the shrink/taped up parts; check those.


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

Granny Gremlin said:


> The 4th switch, DPDT way over on the right by itself is a tone defeat - have you gone through that one? Seems like 1 pole is unused (why DPDT when the rest are SPST) and it looks like there's been some modding in there so a bit suspect. Also what's up with tall the shrink/taped up parts; check those.


The 4th is a replacement switch i added because the other broke . Its for the coil tapping of the humbucker . Not being able to find a spst with black flat paddle , the only thing i found was that dpdt the keep the original look . The thing with that shrink wrap is the 3 ground from the 3 pick up going into 1 wire for easier soldering on the back of the volume pot ( seymour duncan website suggest that)


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

I read you replace the 4th switch and it do not work properly right ? 

What else if not a wrong switch or wrong wiring ?


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

can you isolate the one giving you a problem and take a photo


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

Latole said:


> I read you replace the 4th switch and it do not work properly right ?
> 
> What else if not a wrong switch or wrong wiring ?


The 4th was broken ( the lever was broken the switch was still working ) i replaced it with a dpdt but it is wired the same way and its for coil splitting the humbucker . That part is working . I just tested separately all the 3 pick up
Switch unplugging the others 2 and on the 3 pick pick when switch is off but volume on 10
The sound still go trought on hi gain channel


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

knight_yyz said:


> can you isolate the one giving you a problem and take a photo


I tested all the switch and all


Latole said:


> I read you replace the 4th switch and it do not work properly right ?
> 
> What else if not a wrong switch or wrong wiring ?


tested with multimeter , all switch off , no signal to volume pot . But when plugged i hear low guitar sound .


knight_yyz said:


> can you isolate the one giving you a problem and take a photo


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

We need a sketch of wiring as build to see where sound may come from.

Did you ear this guitar working well before and with mods ?


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

Latole said:


> We need a sketch of wiring as build to see where sound may come from.
> 
> Did you ear this guitar working well before and with mods ?


Yes i will show you a wiring ! And yes the guitar was working correctly with old pups , or just never noticed. Even when i installed my duncan sh-4 never noticed . Installed 2 hot rails recently and its today i realized some low power sound was comming when i put the master up on the amp and that all switch were at off positions


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

Latole said:


> We need a sketch of wiring as build to see where sound may come from.
> 
> Did you ear this guitar working well before and with mods ?


I think that pretty much cover it , with floyd and tones grounded on volume pot


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

Humbucker PU use four or five wires. Where are they ? Write colors
Issue may come form other wires ?
I need a better and complete wiring drawing.

Post better picture, I can't read your words and wires color

We are working on a problem that requires looking for a very small fault in the circuit.
You have to draw all wires and not forget anything


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Kramerdude44 said:


> Okay just checked , no signal going from the switches when off , no signal from the vol pot at 0 to the jack either. However someone stated ground issue . Everything in this guitar is correctly grounded , however should i add ground to the switch when they are off ?


Weird I googled the model and people said it was a tone defeat switch (but a tap is way more useful and that makes sense given second half of switch is unused).



Kramerdude44 said:


> tested with multimeter , all switch off , no signal to volume pot . But when plugged i hear low guitar sound .


Signal or continuity?

Test at the switches with one probe on middle terminal - just clip it on and park it there, and check that there is _only_ continuity to the outer tab on the opposite side of the side the toggle is facing (like upper tab if toggle down), but do check both outer tabs. Check the reading in Ohms vs just waiting for the continuity sound if your meter does that - it can be a bad connection that isn't quite low R enough for the meter to make the noise but still registers as a resistance; still a bad switch if that's the case - it should be dead open on the bottom tab. Then flip the switch and check the other way. Repeat for all switches.

Hard to see what's up with that yellow wire - do you have ground and hot backwards at the output jack?


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Weird I googled the model and people said it was a tone defeat switch (but a tap is way more useful and that makes sense given second half of switch is unused).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yellow wire is the hot and ground of the jack . I do have the sound bip on my meter and it was working correctly on that side ! I also resoldered all my connections. And disconnect all the switch to only plug 1 at a time and with all 3 switch plugged separately still sound going trough ( what is the possibility of 3 switch going bad ? ) also replaced the volume just to test out . Same issue here


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

From what I see both tone controls will affect all the pickups(?) hard to see exactly what’s going on there.

I’d start by connecting the two tone controls to the middle lug of the neck and middle (or bridge depending on what you prefer) pickups to make them individual.


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

gtrguy said:


> From what I see both tone controls will affect all the pickups(?) hard to see exactly what’s going on there.


There is two tones , one for neck and one for middle . Bridge is not affected by tones .


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Kramerdude44 said:


> There is two tones , one for neck and one for middle . Bridge is not affected by tones .


I understand that’s how it might be meant to be but what you have drawn there won’t work like that. Trace a line back and you’ll see that both tones are connected to the hot of every pickup.


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

gtrguy said:


> From what I see both tone controls will affect all the pickups(?) hard to see exactly what’s going on there.
> 
> I’d start by connecting the two tone controls to the middle lug of the neck and middle (or bridge depending on what you prefer) pickups to make them individual.


My bad i made a mistake on my diagram , both tones are connected to the middle post of the switch for neck and middle pick up


gtrguy said:


> I understand that’s how it might be meant to be but what you have drawn there won’t work like that. Trace a line back and you’ll see that both tones are connected to the hot of every pickup.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Kramerdude44 said:


> My bad i made a mistake on my diagram , both tones are connected to the middle post of the switch for neck and middle pick up


An accurate diagram is very helpful for troubleshooting.


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

gtrguy said:


> An accurate diagram is very helpful for troubleshooting.


Yeah îll do my best guy’s when îll get out of hospital lol. Im not an expert , nor i am a noob in electronics but to me everything is wired correctly, everything is grounded correctly . The guitar is working it’s sound good ! But i just realized that when i pumped the master on my amp when killing the switch some low power clean sound still go trought . That’s just annoying


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

gtrguy said:


> An accurate diagram is very helpful for troubleshooting.



It is a must if we don't have guitar in front of us


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

This a exemple how you should do your sketch to be useful.
Yes it take times.........


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

Latole said:


> This a exemple how you should do your sketch to be useful.
> Yes it take times.........
> 
> View attachment 407776


Wich application for that ?


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

I would encourage the learning to read a schematic too. The schematic provides a overall view of all signal paths...here's an example:


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Looking again at your photos and what you drew- when a pickup toggle is in the off position are you connecting the hot to ground or just leaving it floating?


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

Latole said:


> This a exemple how you should do your sketch to be useful.
> Yes it take times.........
> 
> View attachment 407776





gtrguy said:


> Looking again at your photos and what you drew- when a pickup toggle is in the off position are you connecting the hot to ground or just leaving it floating?


the hot from pick up are in C post with the tones. When off there is nothing plugged at the other post . I tried adding a ground , nothing changed


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

Kramerdude44 said:


> Wich application for that ?


Whic application ? AhAh!?

Same as Leo Fender and Gibson workers use


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

Paul Running said:


> I would encourage the learning to read a schematic too. The schematic provides a overall view of all signal paths...here's an example:
> View attachment 407779



Schematic is the easiest way to see how it work and find where is the issue


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

Latole said:


> Whic application ? AhAh!?
> 
> Same as Leo Fender and Gibson workers use
> 
> View attachment 407803





Latole said:


> Whic application ? AhAh!?
> 
> Same as Leo Fender and Gibson workers use
> 
> View attachment 407803


well you showed me a Pc made diagram , tought there was an application to make it more clear . Of course ill be able to make one with a pencil 🤦‍♂️ . That’s probably the 40th guitar i do wiring in it and first time i got this issue .


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

I always do my shematic/ wiring by hand. I learn how to at school when I learn electronics
Anyway, with app you need fist to draw a sketch by hand IMO ?


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

I am probably way out to lunch, but with that much bleed off running through is it not logic that some of the signal would enter back into the loop? likely from tone pot?

If it is only present on high gain situations and presents as almost clean, it would be very low signal.

For the record I have no idea what i am talking about... im curious about this.


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

Latole said:


> I always do my shematic/ wiring by hand. I learn how to at school when I learn electronics
> Anyway, with app you need fist to draw a sketch by hand IMO ?


Yeah i agree man , will try to do a clean scheme once i got out of hospital with colored wire and all


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Kramerdude44 said:


> That’s probably the 40th guitar i do wiring in it and first time i got this issue .


Doesn't that drive you crazy! 
You know that this is likely/possibly something quite simple but it continues to perplex you...even with all the experience you have. 

I'm continuing to follow this with interest as similar frustrating guitar wiring issues have taken me to the brink of craziness.


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

Brunz said:


> I am probably way out to lunch, but with that much bleed off running through is it not logic that some of the signal would enter back into the loop? likely from tone pot?
> 
> If it is only present on high gain situations and presents as almost clean, it would be very low signal.
> 
> For the record I have no idea what i am talking about... im curious about this.


Well i tested it on clean channel too after , its really when the amp volume/master is boosted up alot . On hi gain it does sound like im on clean channel with vol pot at 1 . On clean its sounds clean but wayyyy less louder


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Kramerdude44 said:


> ...once i got out of hospital


I hope that you will be able to return home soon.


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

greco said:


> Doesn't that drive you crazy!
> You know that this is likely/possibly something quite simple but it continues to perplex you...even with all the experience you have.
> 
> I'm continuing to follow this with interest as similar frustrating guitar wiring issues have taken me to the brink of craziness.


Its does !! I asked my luthier , he says my wiring is correct , im sure my wiring is correct . Îve resoldered all the joints , replaced some parts for test, even off loaded some parts and the problem was still going !! Could that be because the pick ups are high output ? Im still confuse


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

If the pickup is shorted properly it won;t put out sound no matter what.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

I don't know much about wiring, but, is the shielding fresh?
Could there be a ground loop from the jack affecting it?


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

laristotle said:


> I don't know much about wiring, but, is the shielding fresh?
> Could there be a ground loop from the jack affecting it?
> View attachment 407839


Yes the shielding recently done when i replaced the jack . Well technically the plan is to ground everything together. The hot is not touching the shielding


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## Kramerdude44 (10 mo ago)

knight_yyz said:


> If the pickup is shorted properly it won;t put out sound no matter what.


They are not kill switch !! They are 2 on/on switch they just cut the signal path . They are used to replace a 5 way switch


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

if the switch turns the pickup off I am allowed to call it a kill switch. Good luck with your problem


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

Brunz said:


> I am probably way out to lunch, but with that much bleed off running through i*s it not logic that some of the signal would enter back into the loop? likely from tone pot?*
> 
> If it is only present on high gain situations and presents as almost clean, it would be very low signal.


That is why we need a very good sketch as built.


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