# Speaker Recomendations For a 5F1 Champ.....12"?



## urko99

Hello Membership!

Just like the title says, I would like to "Tap" the knowledge and expertise of this membeship, to recomend a 12" speaker that would be well suited for a 5F1 tweed champ chassis (5 watts). It's a 4 ohm speaker output. I have a tendency to lean t'ward Webbers, but I'm open. I play Blues and Classic rock mostly and I run a pedal board loaded with Boost, Overdrive, Trem, Reverb and a Compressor. My main guitar is a Tele, but dabble in LP's as well.

I will have the chassis mounted in a custom solid clear Pine Tweed cabinet to accomodate the 12". Free floating solid pine 3/8" baffle as well.

Just looking for a new toy to play with at rehearsals and small gigs.

These are the facts and I'm sticking to them!kkjuw.

Thanks


----------



## bcmatt

My first instinct would be a WGS from their American Vintage selection.
I've been very pleased with their speakers and use a few different ones (choosing the over Celestion, Vintage Jensen, and Eminence speakers I had:
American Vintage | Warehouse Guitar Speakers
I'm thinking the G12C or the G12C/S depending on how bright you want your 5F1. Or, if you want to spring more money,I'm sure the Alnico is very sweet.
Vaughn has a lot of demos of WGS speakers compared with a lot of popular new and vintage speakers so you can hear if they might be what you are looking for:
WGS G12C vs. Vintage Jensen C12Q - YouTube


----------



## Roryfan

I tried a few speakers in a 5E3 clone (Clark Beaufort), FWIW here are my impressions:

1) Late 50s Jensen P12Q from a Hammond organ: period correct, early break up, can be a little farty (esp w/ humbuckers), watch the bass. Though something in this vein might be a nice fit for a lower wattage amp like a Champ that wouldn't push it as hard as a Deluxe.

2) Eminence Cannabis Rex: unless you have an icepicky Tele, these are too dark for tweed. I put the 10" version (Lil Buddy) in a brown Princeton & it sounds fantastic, but that's a much brighter amp. Eminence products are hard to beat in terms of bang for the buck, made in the USA for under $100.

3) Celestion Alnico Blue: YES!!! Gorgeous cleans from a tweed (say wha?), waaay more overall volume & clean headroom vs the P12Q, great crunch tones, can handle lots of bottom, loves buckers & SC pups. There's a reason why the amp came from Clark w/ this speaker. May be too efficient for a 5W amp, but you'll have no trouble moving it if you don't like it.


----------



## brimc76

I have a Trinity Tramp (6 watt) chassis which I put into a modified 5E3 pine cabinet covered in tweed. I used a (12") Weber 12A 125A in it because I had it as a spare. I liked it a lot more in this than in my 5E3 so I've never changed it. The speaker settings are selectable on the Tramp though so I was able to use an 8 ohm speaker.


----------



## urko99

Here is a response from Webber, asking them the same question, that's worth Consideration.

Hi John. 

my suggestion to you is to build the amp for 8 ohm output, which is much more common for 12" speakers than 4 ohm. I would likely look to the AlNiCo Signature 12S for a great full tweed tone that should match really well with the 5F1 circuit.


let me know what you think. I am happy to help out.
*
*________________
C.J. Sutton




technical help / quality assitance / design Weber Speakers
www.tedweber.com
_Carrying on in the tradition of Ted Weber

The price is right on this speaker($45)! I Just have to have the chassis Modified for 8 ohms, This shouldn't be a problem because it still has to be built. This work is outsourced, since I dont have the know how, or the time to do it on my own. This looks pretty good!

Thanks all of you who replied, I always value your input. This sure is a great resource of information and I'm Glad to be a part of it._


----------



## brimc76

You have to consider advice from the guys at Weber as they know their speakers better than I do. I just checked the specs on the Alnico Signature 12S 25 watt and the Alnico Vintage 12A 20 watt and the big difference I see is the magnet size and weight. I'm not a speaker expert at all but maybe you could ask the technical help at Weber about the differences in sound and tone, or maybe someone here that has more experience than I do would know what differences there would be. I would be interested in hearing that myself.


----------



## keeperofthegood

kkjq they tell you shipping after it is bought and payments arranged? Sounds expensive kkjq


----------



## urko99

keeperofthegood said:


> kkjq they tell you shipping after it is bought and payments arranged? Sounds expensive kkjq


I have a US shipping address and I'm able to enjoy lower shipping rates ($18 to be exact). I'm cross border all the time and I'll pay my 13% as i bring it accross.


----------



## urko99

brimc76 said:


> You have to consider advice from the guys at Weber as they know their speakers better than I do. I just checked the specs on the Alnico Signature 12S 25 watt and the Alnico Vintage 12A 20 watt and the big difference I see is the magnet size and weight. I'm not a speaker expert at all but maybe you could ask the technical help at Weber about the differences in sound and tone, or maybe someone here that has more experience than I do would know what differences there would be. I would be interested in hearing that myself.


I will reply to Weber with that question and I'll post what they say. It may take a couple of days to get a reply so bare with me.


----------



## urko99

Here's the description of of the Weber site for both. Looks like a larger voice coil as well;

The favorite for period-correct Tweed Deluxe tone (5E3): [12A125A, 8 ohm, 30w, light dope]



Replaces Chicago Jensen P12Q and other medium power AlNiCo 12's.
12", 11oz AlNiCo magnet, 20 or 30 watts, 1-1/4" voice coil, curved seam, ribbed cone.
Woody, reedy, early 60's Fender tone. Tight low end, detailed high end. Compressed and fattened at higher volumes



*AlNiCo Sig 12S
$45.00
QTY
** 
8 Ohms 
**For lower power amps with AlNiCo 12's. Economical replacement for CTS, Chicago Jensen, and Oxford 12's.
12", 7oz AlNiCo plug magnet, 25 watt, 1" voice coil, curved seam cone.
Brighter tone, medium breakup, early 60's Fender woody/reedy tone.
*


----------



## keeperofthegood

urko99 said:


> I have a US shipping address and I'm able to enjoy lower shipping rates ($18 to be exact). I'm cross border all the time and I'll pay my 13% as i bring it accross.



 lucky you!! I am not allowed into the US. They don't like me <3

I am going to email them and ask about shipping into Canada.


----------



## urko99

keeperofthegood said:


> lucky you!! I am not allowed into the US. They don't like me <3
> 
> I am going to email them and ask about shipping into Canada.


The US doesn't know what they're Missing there Keeps! I've heard of some very high shipping costs involving Weber and shipping to Canada so buyer beware. I do know that they no longer use UPS as a shipper, clearly stated on thier website.


----------



## StevieMac

Do yourself a favour and get an AlNiCo Weber. I personally preferred the 12A125 in the 5F1 I had built (Deluxe sized cab) but the Signature would obviously have adequate power and would likely be along the same lines tonewise. IMO, that circuit does indeed require an AlNiCo speaker otherwise it's WAY too dark and muddy. There's an 8-ohm 30 watt 12A125 for sale on the Weber board right now for just $80 (shipped in the US): FS: Speakers There's also a 12F100 there for $50 shipped but, again, I'd steer clear of ceramics for the 5F1...

Steve


----------



## keeperofthegood

OH! No UPS is good news actually! Oi such a rotten time with them! I have most of what I need to build an amp now. I only have a part of two left to get including the speaker. I had not really had it on the for burner though as most speakers I have looked at have been well outside my ability to afford but looking at that signature series it becomes something that comes closer to the realm of the probable.


----------



## brimc76

I ordered my Weber speakers through Yellow Cab Amplification in B.C. and had them ship to Ontario.


----------



## WCGill

12A125 is a great choice, as is the P12Q Jensen. The Celestion Blue is killer but expensive, the Weber equivalent being the Blue Dog, as good as the Celestion, slightly less dear. I think the alnico Silver Bell would be another good driver, slightly less headroom than the Blue Dog.


----------



## StevieMac

I made this offer to someone buiding a tweed Deluxe: I have a Jensen RI P12R that seems to have developed voice coil rub. Before that happened though, the speaker sounded really GREAT in my tweed Champ clone. Anyway, according to Weber, it may actually be possible to fix it on your own. If you're the curious, DIY, adventuresome type then you'd be welcome to it...just cover shipping (maybe $15?). Here's Weber's directions:

_*From Weber VST Speaker Resource Q&A:
*_
_*"The noise is definitely a rub, either from, as you suggested, a warped (from overheating) voice coil, or flakes of paper or other material stuck in the gap between the voice coil and pole or front plate hole. There is a way to correct that if it isn't too severe. I'll detail it here, then you can make the decision whether to try it or not. The result is that you correct the problem without reconing the speaker, thus preserving the value of the original speaker. First, since you will be performing this operation without demagnetizing the magnet, make sure your work area is very clean and you have plenty of light. Lay the speaker on its back with the cone facing up and with a scalpel, carefully cut out the dustcap, leaving about 1/16" of dustcap where it is glued to the cone. This is important because the voice coil wires pass through this point and you want to make sure you don't cut them. Next, use a vacuum cleaner or clean, dry pressurized air to suck or blow the dust and other debris out of the gap. If you hold the speaker upside down with the cone facing downward it will probably help getting the dust and debris out. Next, take a 3x5 index card and cut it into a strip that is the correct length so that you can form it into a circle and stick it down into the gap between the inside of the voice coil and the outside of the pole. This will help form the voice coil back into a circle. Next, lay the speaker back down on its back. Take a Q-tip or small paint brush and dip it into a bottle of acetone (finger nail polish remover). Spread a small amount of this acetone on a couple of the rings of the spider, which is the brownish/yellow corrugated disk attached to the backside of the cone at the base of the basket. Next, place a jar lid or other disk on the cone where the dustcap was and let the speaker set overnight. The lid or disk will prevent dust from getting into the gap overnight, and the acetone causes the spider to relax and reposition slightly, thus repositioning the voice coil. The next day, remove the lid and the index card strip and see if you still have a rub. If you do, try the acetone again, same procedure. If, after a couple of tries, it seems hopeless, then professional reconing is the only resolve." 

*_


----------



## Roryfan

StevieMac said:


> I made this offer to someone buiding a tweed Deluxe: I have a Jensen RI P12R that seems to have developed voice coil rub. Before that happened though, the speaker sounded really GREAT in my tweed Champ clone. Anyway, according to Weber, it may actually be possible to fix it on your own. If you're the curious, DIY, adventuresome type then you'd be welcome to it...just cover shipping (maybe $15?). Here's Weber's directions:
> 
> _*From Weber VST Speaker Resource Q&A:
> *_
> _*"The noise is definitely a rub, either from, as you suggested, a warped (from overheating) voice coil, or flakes of paper or other material stuck in the gap between the voice coil and pole or front plate hole. There is a way to correct that if it isn't too severe. I'll detail it here, then you can make the decision whether to try it or not. The result is that you correct the problem without reconing the speaker, thus preserving the value of the original speaker. First, since you will be performing this operation without demagnetizing the magnet, make sure your work area is very clean and you have plenty of light. Lay the speaker on its back with the cone facing up and with a scalpel, carefully cut out the dustcap, leaving about 1/16" of dustcap where it is glued to the cone. This is important because the voice coil wires pass through this point and you want to make sure you don't cut them. Next, use a vacuum cleaner or clean, dry pressurized air to suck or blow the dust and other debris out of the gap. If you hold the speaker upside down with the cone facing downward it will probably help getting the dust and debris out. Next, take a 3x5 index card and cut it into a strip that is the correct length so that you can form it into a circle and stick it down into the gap between the inside of the voice coil and the outside of the pole. This will help form the voice coil back into a circle. Next, lay the speaker back down on its back. Take a Q-tip or small paint brush and dip it into a bottle of acetone (finger nail polish remover). Spread a small amount of this acetone on a couple of the rings of the spider, which is the brownish/yellow corrugated disk attached to the backside of the cone at the base of the basket. Next, place a jar lid or other disk on the cone where the dustcap was and let the speaker set overnight. The lid or disk will prevent dust from getting into the gap overnight, and the acetone causes the spider to relax and reposition slightly, thus repositioning the voice coil. The next day, remove the lid and the index card strip and see if you still have a rub. If you do, try the acetone again, same procedure. If, after a couple of tries, it seems hopeless, then professional reconing is the only resolve."
> 
> *_


Urko, this is definitely worth a shot & a great offer from Steve. If you don't want to tackle it yourself, take it to Rob Fowler in Cambridge 

www.classicamps.com


----------



## urko99

StevieMac said:


> I made this offer to someone buiding a tweed Deluxe: I have a Jensen RI P12R that seems to have developed voice coil rub. Before that happened though, the speaker sounded really GREAT in my tweed Champ clone. Anyway, according to Weber, it may actually be possible to fix it on your own. If you're the curious, DIY, adventuresome type then you'd be welcome to it...just cover shipping (maybe $15?). Here's Weber's directions:
> 
> _*From Weber VST Speaker Resource Q&A:
> *_
> _*"The noise is definitely a rub, either from, as you suggested, a warped (from overheating) voice coil, or flakes of paper or other material stuck in the gap between the voice coil and pole or front plate hole. There is a way to correct that if it isn't too severe. I'll detail it here, then you can make the decision whether to try it or not. The result is that you correct the problem without reconing the speaker, thus preserving the value of the original speaker. First, since you will be performing this operation without demagnetizing the magnet, make sure your work area is very clean and you have plenty of light. Lay the speaker on its back with the cone facing up and with a scalpel, carefully cut out the dustcap, leaving about 1/16" of dustcap where it is glued to the cone. This is important because the voice coil wires pass through this point and you want to make sure you don't cut them. Next, use a vacuum cleaner or clean, dry pressurized air to suck or blow the dust and other debris out of the gap. If you hold the speaker upside down with the cone facing downward it will probably help getting the dust and debris out. Next, take a 3x5 index card and cut it into a strip that is the correct length so that you can form it into a circle and stick it down into the gap between the inside of the voice coil and the outside of the pole. This will help form the voice coil back into a circle. Next, lay the speaker back down on its back. Take a Q-tip or small paint brush and dip it into a bottle of acetone (finger nail polish remover). Spread a small amount of this acetone on a couple of the rings of the spider, which is the brownish/yellow corrugated disk attached to the backside of the cone at the base of the basket. Next, place a jar lid or other disk on the cone where the dustcap was and let the speaker set overnight. The lid or disk will prevent dust from getting into the gap overnight, and the acetone causes the spider to relax and reposition slightly, thus repositioning the voice coil. The next day, remove the lid and the index card strip and see if you still have a rub. If you do, try the acetone again, same procedure. If, after a couple of tries, it seems hopeless, then professional reconing is the only resolve."
> 
> *_


Stevie Mac, I am that adventurous type always looking for a bargain as well as DiY challenge. I thank you so much on your generous offer and will attempt this repair. I will PM you later this evening and exchange information, and If I'm Lucky........ Maybe the shipping guys will Jossel it around enough to fix it before I get It!! LoL! I will post Progress Pictures of my repair attempt on this thread, so let's light this candle!


----------



## gtone

I'm with WCGill on this one - try the Weber Blue Dog or Celestion Blue (excellent call Bill!). They're both tighter in the low frequencies than either a P12R or P12Q or their Weber equivalents. They both give a little more chiminess and punch than the Jensen-based models, albeit at the price of a bit of sweetness, but the sweetness is not really the 5F1 circuit's forte anyhow. Not sure whether the Celestion is available in 4 ohms but the Weber definitely is and 4 ohm is the key to getting the most out of a Tweed Champ.


----------



## loudtubeamps

If you do try to clean the coil gap, I would strongly suggest the vacuum, and not blowing air into the gap.
Blowing compressed air could lodge any loose debris into the bottom of the gap making removal impossible.
As well, if you use the vacuum,open the port on the wand so as not to apply too much suction to the cone and coil.
To check the gap and possibly clean any loose debris(there shouldn't be any,if there is,it's probably beyond repair)
as mentioned, use a slender piece of paper card stock. No more that 1/4" to 3/8" in width and 4" in length,giving you enough to get down to the bottom of the gap while still having lots to hold on to. A thickness of .015" is good.
If you do find loose stuff in the gap, you could lightly moisten your paper gap cleaner (with water, not solvet) and travel a small section of the gap, remove the card stock, clean thoroughly and repeat the procedure. 
If the coil has suffered heat damage,it should be evident after the dust cap has been removed.
I have been doing recones since the mid eighties and have had good success with complete removal of the dust cap intact by carefully applying small amounts of lacquer thinner on a Q- tip to the dust cap glue ring.It should soften fairly quickly and the trick is to lift the cap off before the solvent dissipates and the glue starts to set up again. 
If the spider glue joint at the frame has come loose, a small amount of contact cement on a toothpick to glue the spider back down works pretty well. 
Good luck.
cheers, doug


----------



## urko99

loudtubeamps said:


> If you do try to clean the coil gap, I would strongly suggest the vacuum, and not blowing air into the gap.
> Blowing compressed air could lodge any loose debris into the bottom of the gap making removal impossible.
> As well, if you use the vacuum,open the port on the wand so as not to apply too much suction to the cone and coil.
> To check the gap and possibly clean any loose debris(there shouldn't be any,if there is,it's probably beyond repair)
> as mentioned, use a slender piece of paper card stock. No more that 1/4" to 3/8" in width and 4" in length,giving you enough to get down to the bottom of the gap whild still having lots to hold on to.A thickness of .015" is good.
> If you do find loose stuff in the gap, you could lightly moisten the paper gap cleaner (with water, not solvet) and travel a small section of the gap, remove the card stock, clean thoroughly and repeat the procedure.
> If the coil has suffered heat damage,it should be evident after the dust cap has been removed.
> I have been doing recones since the mid eighties and have had good success with complete removal of the dust cap intact by carefully applying small amounts of lacquer thinner on a Q- tip to the dust cap glue ring.It should soften fairly quickly and the trick is to lift the cap off before the solvent dissipates and the glue starts to set up again.
> If the spider glue joint at the frame has come loose, a small amount of contact cement on a toothpick to cement the spider back down works pretty well.
> Good luck.
> cheers, doug


Great instructions and thanks for that. Just made arrangement with StevieMac to get the speaker shipped to me. Cant wait to make this speaker repair attempt!


----------



## HarpBoy

keeperofthegood said:


> kkjq they tell you shipping after it is bought and payments arranged? Sounds expensive kkjq


Actually, they let you know what the shipping will be when they receive your order, but you haven't paid for it yet. I've bought a couple from them now and always pay with Paypay, once they've emailed me what the total would be. I have a quote from them for one now (got it about a month ago from them). When I'm ready to buy the speaker, I'll send them the total with the invoice #.

Simple.


----------

