# Scale charts



## Jim DaddyO

I am looking for the 5 box charts for scales. I may be wrong here, but I think that only 5 are needed, right? For instance, if you are playing Am, it is also Cmaj????

Thanks
Jim


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## greco

Hi Jim:

I found this site that lets you print off any scale charts (for guitar and bass)...hope it is helpful

The Bass and Guitar Fretboard Diagram Printer

Cheers

Dave


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## Mooh

Look for my PM.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Jim DaddyO

Thank you...have the bass pages one bookmarked


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## cheezyridr

if you use the opera browser, there is a wiget called "guitar scales drawer". it will show you every possible scale


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## Andy Fake

The "5 box chart" you seek has nothing to do with the act of playing a C-major chord or an A-minor chord.
But your "5 box chart" part of your question is quite a far-reaching potent issue.

And yes, Guitar Theory only needs 5 of those so-called boxes or cages or POSITIONS;
because the 6th is equivalent to the 1st.....the 7th to the 2nd.....etc....the 4th to -1st.....etc.

We need 5 of them to exhaust the fretboard; however, they do overlap with each other!
Observe that the guitar fretboard has 5 differently-named strings.

If it had but 4 differently-named strings...Guitar Theory would issue but 4 boxes/cages/Positions!

n differently named strings implies n positions.

Example: a violin fretboard will have 4positions.

However, in theory only one position is necessary since every position contains EXACTLY THE SAME EVENTS;
where for now an event is a chord or a scale from Music Theory localized upon the fretboard.


Andy Fake
(Director of Research)


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## lbrown1

Andy Fake;313841
However said:


> it may contain the exact same "events" but playing a note in "position 1" vs perhaps position 3 for example would be akin to me humming a note and my young daughter humming the same note.......same pitch......but a very different sound.....roving about the "positions" is a very useful activity when even duplicating the exact same melody line but make it sound totally different.


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## Andy Fake

Yes.
What you say is true; quite obvious to some yet no quite so to others.
It's good that you mention this.

I think 'this' is what we mean in an Instrument Theory when we use the word TIMBER.

Thanks lbrown.
This C on the piano is different from that C yet they are the same.Ha. Timber.
Good; very good.

BUT! BUT! BUT!

Lucky for all of us, the following assertion/proposition turns out to be true,

Proposition: The consequences of the Theory of Chords and Scales upon the guitar fretboard are independent of timber. 


Another even more potent related theorem is this,

Theorem: The consequences of Guitar Theory is independent of octave.


Side: Sorry. I know i'm playing with long winded sentenses for things that can be expressed in 2 or 3 or 4 short words. Guitar theory should be expressed in short, simple, meaningful sentenses. Ha.



Fakerunnee


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## lbrown1

Andy Fake said:


> Side: Sorry. I know i'm playing with long winded sentenses for things that can be expressed in 2 or 3 or 4 short words. Guitar theory should be expressed in short, simple, meaningful sentenses. Ha.
> 
> 
> 
> Fakerunnee


no......by all means - keep the long winded sentences - they're amusing


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## shawn_thomas

When you say that Am is the same scale as Cmaj, you are making reference to relative minors. every major scale has one, to find it you simply go down a step and a half from your major root. if minor, you go up a step and a half from your minor root to find your relative major.

I find this very useful when writing songs and get stuck or when i'm improvising, you'd be amazed how much attitude you can add to a major chord progression switching from it's major scale to it's minor.


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## jeremy_green

When you say 5 patterns you are implying a 5 note scale (pentatonic) ... so your request is to find pentatonic box patterns. Google that and it is readily available.
If you are talking about the C major (A minor) scale there are 7 notes - therefore 7 box patterns, one for each starting note.

Honestly they best way to do this (nobody likes this but it remains true) is to work them out for yourself. The process of doing so, can help you see the fretboard in a new light.

It is easy to do, you just need some basic theory to do it. 

Here goes:
- All notes have 2 frets (whole-step) between them EXCEPT E to F and B to C - they only have one fret between them (half-step)
- If you put these altogether starting and ending with C you get the major scale formulaW= whole-step, H = half-step)

W-W-H-W-W-W-H
With this pattern you can build ANY major scale on the guitar. Start from any note on the neck and move up in this pattern and voila! Major scale.

Getting back to building your own box patterns:

- So if you started on the E string and drew out the neck on a piece of paper:
E|F| |G| |A| |B|C| |D| |E|F| |G etc

- Then do the A string:
A| |B|C| |D| |E|F| |G| |A|

- Keep going and do all the strings. If you do this you will have mapped out the entire neck for CMaj (Amin)

- Now divide those up into 3 notes-per-string blocks there you go - your box patterns. You can finger these any way you like so I find it is better to work out your own. Then you can customize the blocks to suit your comfort. 

With all this I will add you need to be aware of where all the C notes are. A notes also. Always practice these coming off of those primary notes. Many players, focus on the lowest note on the E string (like a barre chord) and always start the scale from there - which can lead to clashing when you start trying to use them. Remember these are *C SCALES* - the note and chord C is very important to these boxes. A minor too. C Major is the same notes as A minor, so internalize these patterns, being very cognizant of the location of those 2 notes and their associated chord shapes.

Patterns are great, but to really understand the neck, you need to begin to think notes. Patterns can become a crutch ... take a look at how many "I cant break out of the pentatonic box" threads there are net wide. The guitar is a very visual instrument - that is one of it's strengths. But that same strength can end up working against you. Ultimately you must let your ears be your guide.

Good luck!!


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## Andy Fake

" To find it you simply go..."

Yeah, this is good.
Going another step farther(spelling?) we as guitar people MUST ask:

How do we find 'it' on the Guitar Fretboard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

'Cause the there Music Theory has its algorithm for finding 'it'. Yes.

But its algorithm is almost absolutely of no use whatsoever to us as guitar players!( this statement is not 100% true; but its true enough).

If the guitar fretboard had only one string then the Music Theory algorithm for finding relative minors and stuff would obviously work for us...etc.

But you don't have to believe stupid ole me!

*Just do it yourself*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Say to your self:

Let me take an arbitrary event; like a C major triad. Is there any other event(s) on this guitar fretboard here that would qualify as being the relative minor of this C triad*?*. If so, then what is the algorithm for finding it. 

'Cause in the there Music Theory *any* A minor triad anywhere in 'the' universe in any inversion moving or not would qualify as being a valid relative minor.

But is this situation also true for our here Guitar Theory*?*!!!!!

*Question: * Is it really such that given some particular C major triad upon the guitar fretboard, then any A minor triad whatsoever upon that fretboard qualifies as 'the' relative minor?


Andy Fakeroo


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## Andy Fake

> [jeremy_green
> When you say 5 patterns you are implying a 5 note scale (pentatonic) ... so your request is to find pentatonic box patterns. Google that and it is readily available.
> If you are talking about the C major (A minor) scale there are 7 notes - therefore 7 box patterns, one for each starting note.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Green i really don't want to have to disagree, BUT!!!
> You don't understand the situation.
> 
> And you really should force yourself to understand this VERY VERY IMPORTANT SITUATION!!!!
> 
> You simple must see how it transpires that even when we have a 7 note scale localized upon the guitar fretboard *we will still only have 5* boxes/cages/Positions.
> 
> I beg you to do some personal research .....Sorry.
> 
> 
> Andy Fake
> (Director of Research)
> (The Roman Empire)


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## Andy Fake

*Music Theory.....Instrument Theory.....Guitar Theory*

Look!

In Music Theory Proper there really is no notion of location.
There is no notion of playing.
There is no notion of putting fingers here or putting fingers there.
etc.

If in Pure Music Theory we say that C major and A minor has 'that relation...la la la', we don't need to specify *WHERE* in the universe, or *ON WHAT *instrument these 2 chords exist. Obviously.

The events of Pure Music Theory exist in The Void. They are not localized. There cannot be produced a coordinate system to uniquely specify the events.

*However!*

In an instrument theory  almost the exact opposite is true!!!!!!!!!!!

Location of the events is obviously and blatently of the absolute utmost importance for any instrument theory.


Location! Location! Location!

Why is a saxaphone not a guitar?
Why is a flute not a piano?

Yes, timber and stuff, but the different location of the events of the instruments also...etc...
etc.


Let be given some specific C major triad resting upon the guitar fretboard.
There will be an A minor triad nearby and there will be a different(as to location) A minor triad far away.

There are instrument-theoretical reasons for considering the closer to be "the" relative minor.


etc,...etc...


Andy of the Fakes


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## jeremy_green

Andy Fake said:


> [jeremy_green
> When you say 5 patterns you are implying a 5 note scale (pentatonic) ... so your request is to find pentatonic box patterns. Google that and it is readily available.
> If you are talking about the C major (A minor) scale there are 7 notes - therefore 7 box patterns, one for each starting note.
> 
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Green i really don't want to have to disagree, BUT!!!
> You don't understand the situation.
> 
> And you really should force yourself to understand this VERY VERY IMPORTANT SITUATION!!!!
> 
> You simple must see how it transpires that even when we have a 7 note scale localized upon the guitar fretboard *we will still only have 5* boxes/cages/Positions.
> 
> I beg you to do some personal research .....Sorry.
> 
> 
> Andy Fake
> (Director of Research)
> (The Roman Empire)
> 
> 
> 
> This is incorrect.
Click to expand...


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## Mooh

This is getting pretty tiresome. 

"You simple must see how it transpires that even when we have a 7 note scale localized upon the guitar fretboard we will still only have 5 boxes/cages/Positions." [Andy Fake]

Besides all the other jibberish, this statement is demonstratably untrue. There are seven fingerings (the term I will use herein instead of "boxes/cages/positions") using 3 notes per string, and several more that combine 3 notes and 2 notes per string. These are perhaps the most common, or commonly taught at least. However, there are several more that use 2 and 4 notes per string. These are applicable to 7 note scales starting on any interval, ascending and descending as far as the fingering allows. Yes, they overlap, and it's a good thing they do as that characteristic entices the player with new phrasing options.

All this aside, it's perplexing to me why a perfectly good thread topic gets highjacked by a Fake with a penchant for riddles, indirect answers, unconventional terminology, all expressed with a superior air. 

Andy Fake, the least you could do, if you actually can, is fully explain yourself. If it's an inside joke, I suspect few of us get it.

Peace, Mooh.


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## jeremy_green

With all due respect that statement is even more incorrect than that! I could likely sit down and work our over a dozen patterns for the major scale. (4 notes per, 5 notes per, 2notes per!)
You need to be able to execute any sequence from ANY note on the neck. Not need to jump to some predefined pattern.


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## Mooh

jeremy_green said:


> With all due respect that statement is even more incorrect than that! I could likely sit down and work our over a dozen patterns for the major scale. (4 notes per, 5 notes per, 2notes per!)
> You need to be able to execute any sequence from ANY note on the neck. Not need to jump to some predefined pattern.


Are you referring to mine? If you are, you either misread the post or didn't finish reading it. I entirely agree with you.

One should be able to visualize the whole fretboard and use whatever combinations of notes wherever they are physically fingerable, however that's not the issue I was addressing.

Peace, Mooh.


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## jeremy_green

No Mooh! Sorry man Andy's : ) 
I though it was clear based on your comments.


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## Mooh

jeremy_green said:


> No Mooh! Sorry man Andy's : )
> I though it was clear based on your comments.


Gotcha. We posted so close together, almost cross-posted.

Btw, welcome to the forum.

Peace, Mooh.


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## greco

Mooh said:


> This is getting pretty tiresome.
> 
> "You simple must see how it transpires that even when we have a 7 note scale localized upon the guitar fretboard we will still only have 5 boxes/cages/Positions." [Andy Fake]
> 
> Besides all the other jibberish, this statement is demonstratably untrue. There are seven fingerings (the term I will use herein instead of "boxes/cages/positions") using 3 notes per string, and several more that combine 3 notes and 2 notes per string. These are perhaps the most common, or commonly taught at least. However, there are several more that use 2 and 4 notes per string. These are applicable to 7 note scales starting on any interval, ascending and descending as far as the fingering allows. Yes, they overlap, and it's a good thing they do as that characteristic entices the player with new phrasing options.
> 
> All this aside, it's perplexing to me why a perfectly good thread topic gets highjacked by a Fake with a penchant for riddles, indirect answers, unconventional terminology, all expressed with a superior air.
> 
> Andy Fake, the least you could do, if you actually can, is fully explain yourself. If it's an inside joke, I suspect few of us get it.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


Thanks Mooh....I appreciate the time you took to respond to this. Well written.

Cheers


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## jeremy_green

Mooh said:


> Gotcha. We posted so close together, almost cross-posted.
> 
> Btw, welcome to the forum.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


Thanks Mooh! Seems like a great bunch so far


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## Andy Fake

Explain myself!!!?

But i thought that everybody already understood about these 5 entities being inherent on the guitar fretboard!!!!!!!!

Sure i can explain...

But its already explained in hundreds of guitar books and on many many guitar resourses on the web.


Remember, like it or not, we're all on the same side!




Fake


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## jeremy_green

C Ionian
D Dorian
E Phrygian
F Lydian
G Mixolydian
A Aeolian
B Locrian

7.

Seven notes, seven finger patterns - more if you explore a different notes per string.

Yes - explain yourself Andy. I always love to learn new ways to view the fretboard. If you got one share it.

Maybe you're onto something .... or are you
But we can't tell...
Is the moon really in the sky?
I don't know but cheesecake is great.


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## Andy Fake

Sorry Green, i fell asleep last night.

If they don't kick me off today when i return tonight i try to explain it to you a little more.
Thanks maein......and good luck my brother in The Quest.


Andy Fake
(Director of Research)
(The Roman Empire)
(*guitarproofs.com*)


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## Jim DaddyO

All I started out wanting was position maps....you know, some lines with dots on them, root notes hi lited.....sheesh! Got some straight answers, the digresions into alternate realities was not required. I thought it was a really simple, basic, beginners level request. I am trying to get back to learning some basics, which is really hard when you have noodled through songs for years without much theory.


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## jeremy_green

Hey Jim, Did you not get those? It appeared that you did (first response I think?). I thought you had them, so i expanded on them with real easy to use theory stuff (in my post #11). Your request wasn't really clear if I recall, as you asked for major scale diagrams - but you only asked for 5... which sounds to me like you wanted pentatonic diagrams. So please clarify.

All the subsequent discussion has been around Andy's method (which I still am anxious to hear) and his disagreement with how many "patterns" there are. There has been some useful information in this thread and often times the follow up discussions are good for people to help them learn.

If you feel I have distracted your thread in any way, please accept my apology. Then let me know what it is you still need help with.


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## Jim DaddyO

Yes, thank you Jeremy, I got them. No, it was not you who sidetracked me. The sidetracker is obvious...lol. Got some great charts from Mooh too. Have not worked much with them yet. My goal is to learn the fretboard a bit better, this time, by the notes, to be able to do all those cool chord inversions and know what they are. I play just for fun, but I would like to improve my skills to at least the point where I can figure out what key I am in. After a I,IV,V progression,, I am lost.....but 3 chords and 5 notes seemed to work out for the Rev. B. Gibbons...lol. Thanks again to all those who had some real input.


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## Andy Fake

Nobody is arguing or speaking bad or disrespecting anybody.

I think everybody, at least subcontiously(spelling?) anyway, is just trying to figure out and maybe totally master the events upon the fretboard. Good luck everybody.

Even arguing is ok really.

I think that this GuitarsCanada.com - The Front Page puts knowledge over psychology!!!

This is what really matters.


Mr. Andy Fake
(King of Quebec)


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## Andy Fake

Oh and Green, i'm rereading the stuff in this your thread here to see if maybe i'm misreading your stuff.......

your wording of things confuse me a bit though...


A. F.


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## jeremy_green

I am speechless


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## greco

Andy Fake said:


> .....your wording of things confuse me a bit though... A. F.


Mr. Fake.....How do you think we feel regarding YOUR "wording of things" ? 

Cheers


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## Mooh

Andy...Why won't you simply stop the riddles and make your point?

Peace, Mooh.


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## Andy Fake

I riddle things around because i believe in making the 'student' figure things out with guidance.

I don't usually figure things out for people.....i am a director.....i direct The Research.....i don't spoon feed, ever. Sorry....you guys don't need spoon-feeding

I give *hints* and direction......everybody is smart enough to figure things out.

The solution is in the hints.

Be happy at least you're getting lots of hints. Ha.

Ha.


Now i'm off to work; telemarketing!



Andy Fake


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## jeremy_green

The problem is Andy, if you riddle for too long, without a real answer once in a while,
eventually you lose credibility. People then stop bothering to try to solve them. You are riddling to an empty room then.

I personally have no idea where you are coming from... or if this is some large jerk around that you just do for kicks.


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## Mooh

Andy Fake said:


> I riddle things around because i believe in making the 'student' figure things out with guidance.
> 
> I don't usually figure things out for people.....i am a director.....i direct The Research.....i don't spoon feed, ever. Sorry....you guys don't need spoon-feeding
> 
> I give *hints* and direction......everybody is smart enough to figure things out.
> 
> The solution is in the hints.
> 
> Be happy at least you're getting lots of hints. Ha.
> 
> Ha.
> 
> 
> Now i'm off to work; telemarketing!
> 
> 
> 
> Andy Fake


Andy...I will not pretend to speak for my friends here, but I am not, we are not, your "students". You have not offered "guidance", nor have you "directed" anything here. Further, your "hints" have been indecipherable. This is a forum for discussion and personal research and all I have seen from you is trolling. I'm disappointed that you have chosen a perfectly good OP request to spread your nonsense. 

Luckily, some of us have been able to respond to the OP and others personally, bypassing the nonsense.

I respectfully suggest that if you have something of substance to offer, offer it.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Jim DaddyO

Well said Mooh


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## Andy Fake

Everything's ok.

I'm off to try to make some money telemarketing.....*see you guys tonight*.

Keep researching.....and don't forget to share the discoveries with me. Ha.

Your brother in The Quest.



Fakeroo


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## JHarasym

In its own weird way this thread has been entertaining. It is frustrating trying to understand Mr. Fakeroo's points, and I doubt they are worth the effort. I suspect English is not Andy's first language (nor that "Fake" is his real name). This is a public forum, however, I suppose he has the right to post here though he may rub me the wrong way.


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## greco

JHarasym said:


> ........he may rub me the wrong way.


You are certainly not alone.

Cheers


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## jeremy_green

Lets not be too tough on Mr Fake, without him there would be quite a bit less discussion here. : )


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## Jim DaddyO

been trying this out....kinda fun, I've been getting in around 90%, so I need some more practise.

Fretboard Identification


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## greco

Thanks Jim...great site!

I did OK...but I'm *very* slow. 

Did you try it with 12 frets involved?

Cheers


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## Jim DaddyO

Just at 5 frets for now, I am slow on some too, but others I have nailed down.



greco said:


> Thanks Jim...great site!
> 
> I did OK...but I'm *very* slow.
> 
> Did you try it with 12 frets involved?
> 
> Cheers


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## greco

Jim DaddyO said:


> Fretboard Identification


*Mr Fake*..This will test your basic theory skills. Please do this exercise and report your score (as a percentage) *and* the number of notes you identified in 3 minutes.

Be honest with your reporting. *That is my challenge to you. *...since you have been challenging/testing all of us so much.

Are you up to it?

Cheers


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## Mooh

Dave, 

Well, I can do that as fast as my mouse will travel, but it's my job to make sure others can do it. I often do this game with students, though I don't time them, and I use paper rather than the computer. It's especially handy when teaching accidentals. Also useful is to find as many notes with the same name in any single position, fret, chord shape, etc.

Edit: I often do it using flash cards. The student sees the standard notation note, plays it, then plays the octaves or whatever other interval I require of them. 


Peace, Mooh.


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## Andy Fake

Yeah ok.
Me'll take these challenges and stuff as this afternoon and evening continues on.
But i'm not the rushing-against-Time kinda guy any more.
I usually try to be fast at things; but me no stress meself anymore.


...and guitar-people are smart and good and will follow and really are willing to intake knowledge(inspite of ego and stuff) but let's not blame them for rebelling against the things heard now...

...for when was the last time something really said!?

I've been kicked off many many sites.....i've disturbed many a characters.....Ha. Am i really still here!!?? Ha.

Anaanaaanaaannnnnnyway...

Everyone's talking about the same thing over and over and over again.....this Music Theory stuff has got us by the b _ _ _ _. Poor us. Poor poor us.


...i'm loosing my train of thought now...Ha...fancy that.



Mr. Andy Fake


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## Andy Fake

Yeah daddyO i checked out the exercise.....its a great little exercise.

Its only after i realized that the time was in the bottom corner of my screen.....between fret# 0 to 7 i'm expert enough.....beyond 7 i've got work to do.

Of late me haven't been playing much...past year or so...but when me in my playing phase me know the fretboard a lot better.

But yes, it is extremely important to be able to quickly specify a 'note-name' upon the fretboard.

Good exercise.....good good exercise.




I think my score was around 26/26 in around 2min 10sec.


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## Andy Fake

I just noticed that someone above claimed "*that i have the right to post here...etc*".

Jugging from the amount of places that i got kicked out of i really doubt if i have the right to be posting anywhere. Ha. Fancy that.

I remember being thrown out of a strip joint called The Zanazbar on Younge street about 23 years ago(wonder if its still there). This big muscular guy basically grabbed me by the ears and dragged me out of the place and threw me onto Younge street crashing into the passers by.....i pretended to be smiling all the way through.....she offered to stand on my table and dance and wine and shake and stuff.....she offered.....i didn't disagree.....i was sipping on red wine.....i didn't drink beer in those days.....so there!.....the song finishes and next thing you know she's a asking me for money; $20.00!!!......i started smiling.....she disappeared.....big muscular guy appears.....grabs me by my ear, essentially.....next thing you know i'm crashing in to people on Younge Street!

Thats how i learned what a table dance was.

Hope the kids are not too too young around here. Ha.



Fakeroonie


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## JHarasym

Andy Fake said:


> i really doubt if i have the right to be posting anywhere
> Fakeroonie


Au contraire, mon ami.

To paraphrase Voltaire, I may not understand what you have to say, but I'll defend your right to say it (though perhaps not to the death).

John


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## Andy Fake

Aananananaaannnanyway...

Where *you lost me Green *was where you said:


"...now divide those up into 3 note-per-string blocks there you go - your box pattern."

WHAT???!!!!!

I was easily with you up to this point.

...should we just drop it now?...............or do we dig into it further?

...i'm for dropping it.....but too i never turn my back on Research. Ha. Picture that.


Andy Fake
(Director of Research)


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## jeremy_green

What is the confusions with that Andy? 

If you take a major scale - drawn out on neck paper - take the first note on the low E string (say E) and count the first 3 notes on that string (so you are finding E,F,G). Now go to the A string and look for the ones in line below that continue the scale (A B C). You keep going, D string next etc. You end up with a 3 notes-per-string major scale form.

Then do the same thing only starting from the note 'F' (again start on the E string and work across all strings)
Then do the same thing only starting from the note 'G' (again start on the E string and work across all strings)

You will end up with the 7 modal shapes.

Does that clarify?


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## Andy Fake

Nope.

But i'm closer to seeing what you're saying.

In the first mode generated (i.e., the one started with Low-E), ain't there only *2* notes on the B-string?




Fakeronni


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## Andy Fake

*The 5 positions of the C major scale*

Ok Mr. Green.

I see now what you see.

I can see now why one might be lead to think that there must be *7* fundamental patterns....not *5*.


If this is to be taken any further we will have to indeed *reconcile this occurence*.



Andy Fake
(Director of Research)


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## Andy Fake

*Dirty Work*

Here's *the Reconciliation*:

*Hint:* Look at the notes on the Low-E string(Low-E, F G ...). See the notes on consecutive frets? i.e., B, C and E, F. If one does a very very little bit of Dirty Work and actually generate the scale on all 6 strings, first using one of the consecutive notes as the generator, and then do the same using the other consecutive note as another generator THEN compare the two scales thereby generated: The Reconcilation will jump out of the page smacking you right in the kisser.


Thanks maein.



Andy Fake 
(Director of Research)
(*The Roman Empire!) *


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## jeremy_green

Andy ... I am not sure where you are going still ... although I suspect you are referring to the smaller patterns within the larger patterns.

When you say "generate the scale" which scale are you referring? C major? That was the scale I have been referring to.
You say "do the same using the other consecutive note as another generator" - are you still talking about scale of C Major? Or the scale belonging to that "consecutive fret" note (in this case F maj)

Your lingo is pretty vague. I'd quite like to understand where you are coming from here so dumb it down for me.


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## Andy Fake

1) No.....me no refer to any smaller patterns within any larger pattern.

2) Yes, we are using C major.....all the scale tones of C major all over the fretboard.....the "*C major covering*".

i) On the low E-string it starts with Low-E, then the F on fret# 1, then the G on fret# 3...etc...

ii) Above in this thread you/we used these notes on the Low-E string to build-up/construct/*generate* the 7 different modes..............right? Right..........*So * we were saying that there must therefore be 7 boxes/cages/positions/Yanina-fretboards instead of 5.

...or something like this anyway.



Andy Fruitcake


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## Andy Fake

The reason why we still get 5 positions even though 7 modes are being generated is that every pair of consecutive 'notes'/fretpitches appearing upon the Low-E (i.e....the 'B & C' and the 'E & F' consecutive pairs) actually generate the same positions*!!!!!!!!!!!*


...there is not enough 'distance' between these consecutive pairs to generate 2 distinct positions.

...because they are 'so close' to each other, with respect to the generation of positions/cages, they are acting as if they are one entity.

...do not confuse a Position with a finger-pattern...........a finger pattern exists in (inside of) some position. 


Andy Fake
(Director of Research)
(The Roman Empire)


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## Andy Fake

*...a hybrid scale does not mean we have a new Position!*

If we were to follow precicely Green's algorithm for generating the 7 modes using the 'notes of the C major scale appearing upon the Low-E, we will indeed get/generate 7 modes;

but the modes generated upon the F note/fretpitch and the mode generated upon the C note/fretpitch will actually be using 2 positions.....................i.e. their existance requires the use of 2 positions...etc,.

We call such events...i.e., events whose existance/definition requires more than 1 position, *Hybrid Events*.


Sorry everybody.


Andy Fake 
(Director of Research)
(The Roman Empire)


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## jeremy_green

Hey Andy....

Sorry mate I still have to disagree.. while yes it is possible to not shift positions in the E,F & B,C positions to say those other patterns don''t exist because of proximity is inaccurate. Try this - make sure you use 3 notes on EVERY string. There certainly are 7 patterns ..... actually far far more if you include other notes per string amounts. For example - Start on the 12th fret (E string) and ascend the C Major scale using ONLY 2 notes per string. Start on the Low open E and generate the same C scale using strictly 4 notes per string... do 5, do 1. ALL OF these could be considered patterns and ALL of them have their uses. I use all of these types on a daily basis during improvs. These types of practices really open up the neck laterally for you and shouldn't be avoided.

I appreciate your attempt to simplify things but one of the truly great things about the guitar is the many different ways you can play the same thing. Learning how to utilize that as a strength is a very important component to playing well. The idea of 2 forms lying in the same position is REALLY confining to me. Getting out of box thinking is a vital component to musical freedom.


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## jeremy_green

You inspired me to a blog entry, I'll also start a thread so people can find it easier.

Six String Obsession


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## jeremy_green

Andy, you inspired me to do a Blog entry on this 

Six String Obsession


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