# New guitar brand being pitched on "Dragons Den" Jan 13th



## Hamstrung

Apparently they're a couple of Canadian guys who are partnered with a Chinese Violin factory.
The guitars look pretty nice but they are making some pretty bold statements of quality. I guess time will tell.

http://news.therecord.com/News/Local/article/654347


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## mandoman

Great Read Hamstring, I Would love to play one .or see one for that matter Thay don't have much by way of pics on their website.


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## xuthal

One of the owners posted here about these guitars.Sure would like to try one out.


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## Hamstrung

xuthal said:


> One of the owners posted here about these guitars.Sure would like to try one out.


Thanks for the heads up on that. I wasn't aware they were already represented here.


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## Mike MacLeod

It will be interesting. The Chinese can build fine instruments. Many of the high-end fiddles sold overseas leave China in the white and are completed in Europe and the US with other maker's names and high prices. (not there is not value added).

Some problems can be encountered. A High End archtop builder from the US sent a $10K guitar to China a few years ago to be copied. The results were staggering as far as the instrument is concerned. (I know, I own the guitar) The big problem was in the fretwork and final set-up. It turned out that the guitar had to be edre-fret and re-worked. In the end the project did not go through as even the 2nd guitar had problems like this. 

I have had largely excellent experiences with Eastman archtops and flat-tops, and I would certainly compare them to factory guitars at 2-3 times the price. However, I must say that they are far from perfect when compared very good quality hand made instruments.

In short, it is always the little things that take the longest to perfect and take the most time and experience. I also believe that players make the best builders and the Chinese do not have a long history of guitar playing. ...... Yet! Bob Taylor has gone on record as saying that he does not want luthiers's in his factory. The point being that he can make guitars like Henry Ford made guitars. True, his guitars are consistent and high quality. But I think they are lacking that 'magic spark' when compared to the hand-builders.


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## Xanadu

Yeah, one of the guys posted in the Dealer section a while back http://guitarscanada.com/showthread.php?t=29691


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## rollingdam

Mike MacLeod said:


> It will be interesting. The Chinese can build fine instruments. Many of the high-end fiddles sold overseas leave China in the white and are completed in Europe and the US with other maker's names and high prices. (not there is not value added).
> 
> Some problems can be encountered. A High End archtop builder from the US sent a $10K guitar to China a few years ago to be copied. The results were staggering as far as the instrument is concerned. (I know, I own the guitar) The big problem was in the fretwork and final set-up. It turned out that the guitar had to be edre-fret and re-worked. In the end the project did not go through as even the 2nd guitar had problems like this.
> 
> I have had largely excellent experiences with Eastman archtops and flat-tops, and I would certainly compare them to factory guitars at 2-3 times the price. However, I must say that they are far from perfect when compared very good quality hand made instruments.
> 
> In short, it is always the little things that take the longest to perfect and take the most time and experience. I also believe that players make the best builders and the Chinese do not have a long history of guitar playing. ...... Yet! Bob Taylor has gone on record as saying that he does not want luthiers's in his factory. The point being that he can make guitars like Henry Ford made guitars. True, his guitars are consistent and high quality. But I think they are lacking that 'magic spark' when compared to the hand-builders.


taylors are well built and easy to play but they have no soul


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## mrmatt1972

mandoman said:


> Great Read Hamstring, I Would love to play one .or see one for that matter Thay don't have much by way of pics on their website.


+1 need more eye candy before i drop $999


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## zontar

I like Dragon's Den--it's a fun show--I'll have to watch it this week.

I've been hoping something guitar related would show up sometime.


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## mandoman

zontar said:


> I like Dragon's Den--it's a fun show--I'll have to watch it this week.
> 
> I've been hoping something guitar related would show up sometime.


Yes its nice to see some Guitar related shows on TV, How its made had one on that I watched on Godin guitars,[I think it was that brand] It was great to watch.
I'd like to see a weekly show that would pick a guitar a week and give us a review and let us hear a pro play it..could be paid for by the guitar companies...LOL
Now there's a show.


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## Stephen W.

Mike MacLeod said:


> ... I also believe that players make the best builders and the Chinese do not have a long history of guitar playing. ...... Yet! Bob Taylor has gone on record as saying that he does not want luthiers's in his factory. The point being that he can make guitars like Henry Ford made guitars. True, his guitars are consistent and high quality. But I think they are lacking that 'magic spark' when compared to the hand-builders.


Mike, I understand what you're saying, today's assembly plant worker doesn't need a degree to do their job. However, back in the day Henry Ford screened his workers carefully. He wanted people with a high mechanical aptitude. So he hired bicycle repairmen, machinists, clock makers and the like. The early assembly line workers were actually highly skilled.

As far as Mackenzie & Marr guitars and the Dragon's Den go, I think the Dragons walked away. If all they plan to do is 200 units per year at $1000 a pop that barely covers the air time they'll use up tonight. Plus, the show was filmed back in the summer and their web site screams "We need MONEY!" I would really like to know what makes their guitars so different from other "off shore" $1000 guitars?

I don't mean to highjack this tread but the Chinese guitars I'm waiting for are these.
http://www.hollowayharpguitars.com/index.html


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## Guest

Glad to see the small man get a chance to fulfill their dreams to build guitars and make money.


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## Mike MacLeod

mandoman said:


> Yes its nice to see some Guitar related shows on TV, How its made had one on that I watched on Godin guitars,[I think it was that brand] It was great to watch.
> I'd like to see a weekly show that would pick a guitar a week and give us a review and let us hear a pro play it..could be paid for by the guitar companies...LOL
> Now there's a show.


That's what podcasting is for. Podcasting IMHO is the "radio and the TV that was". Back in the day when CBC and others were turning out brilliant and insightful programming. 

harrummph! I don't want to turn this into a political rant so "don't get me started" ;-)


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## zontar

Stephen W. said:


> I don't mean to highjack this tread but the Chinese guitars I'm waiting for are these.
> http://www.hollowayharpguitars.com/index.html


Great--something else to get GAS for...:smile:

Oh well, I do that on my own, and shared that in a recent thread.

I did watch tonight--and it was interesting to see Kevin play.
I think they win with the royalty deal.


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## tcon

*Mackenzie and Marr on Dragon's Den. Very dissapointing.*

I am watching a show called Dragon's Den. Basically, people come up with business propositions for investments. A Canadian group called Mackenzie and Marr, http://www.macmarr.com/store/tofino came on the show. 

They blindfolded a multi-millionaire, Kevin, to try that guitar and a Collings. They said that one guitar was 5k and that the other was a thousand. Kevin guessed their guitar to be worth 5k but it was really the M and M guitar.

The company sells exclusively online and their guitars are handmade, their words, in China.

I have several obvious problems. Why was Collings not blanked out? Is it legal to show on national Canadian television a high-end brand and bash it with a new, internet only guitar which is about the equivalent, I assume, of an Epiphone Masterbilt?

Secondly, the vast majority of people who saw this show probably are not very knowledgeable on guitars. The next time they go to a guitar store, they may stay away from the high-end stuff with the impression that you can get a better sound for a small fraction of the cost. 

What they don't understand is that a better sound is not a very tangible idea. There are always people who will find a cheap little Yamaha to be superior to a high-end Martin. And vice versa. But there are so many other factors that they didn't even talk about on the show. How about resale? What will it be worth in ten years? How about again? Will a guitar with a back and side wood that I've never heard of age well?

Thirdly, the business model of this company is very sketchy to me. Anyone who is not getting a campfire guitar obv. wants to try it out first. There is only one model. No options. No modifications. No different body styles. The back and sides are Akoumé, a wood that I and probably a lot of people on here, have never heard of.

I don't care how it sounds if I don't like the feel. And what about the brand? I know plenty about Collings and no matter how good your guitar sounds or feels, the name on the headstock means a lot.

In the end, they scored a deal for royalties and a percentage of the company. I say that it's a good investment. When you have three of the richest people in the country give a thumbs up and endorsement to a Chinese made guitar, the sales are about to skyrocket. Right? 

I would love it if some guitar makers said a word about endorsements. Are they important or it is about sound and feel alone? Or both?


My personal opinion is that I'm pretty upset about all this. A guitar is supposed to be something personal and modifiable. How do you like a cookie cutter guitar, made in China, that you can only buy from a website? I don't care how good it sounds or feels. For a grand, a nice American used Martin would be much more up my alley.


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## tcon

PS: You can see what the American version of this site has to say about the exact same posting: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=173946.

They agree with me. I don't know what they did to that Collings but it did not sound like one at all. They probably used cheap out-of-tune strings.


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## zontar

What--you have stock in Collings? :smile:

the Dragons are out to make money--and they figured that royalty deal will do it.

but also consider just because the deal is made & accepted on the show doesn't mean it will actually happen.

Due diligence still has to happen.

they did an update episode--and some deals made on the show fell through due to the due diligence stage not giving good results.

Anyway, I enjoyed watching Kevin play--it was a different side of him.


But I wouldn't buy one--at least new over the internet--maybe used down the road.

For me it is very important to play the guitar--to feel it in my hands.
that was brought up that a lot of guitarists are like that--but these days more people order all sorts of stuff online--so the Dragons will make their money back.

If it's not for you--then ignore it.
It's not like they're forcing you to buy one.


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## mrmatt1972

i watched too. sounded and looked like a really good guitar. Why is the location of manufacture a problem? It's the same concept as Martin, Taylor and many other acoustic makers use - factory guitars. The Chinese violin factory workers are undoubtedly extremely skilled craftsmen.

I agree that the hands on approach to guitar buying is less nerve wracking. That said, my location dictates that I buy gear online fairly frequently (I'm jonesing for some Swart pedals right now). I don't get to try them 1st, I need to rely on sound clips, user reviews, magazine reviews and endorsements - and word of mouth from from forums like this one. Lots of people buy gear this way.

What they need is a 100% satisfaction guarantee - i.e., send it back if you don't like it and they'll even look after shipping costs. They also need FAR netter pictures on their website and some audio and video clips of the guitar in action. MAybe even a factory tour. A celeb endorsement wouldn't hurt either.

Also, the Collings (although I couldn't make out the name) was slightly out of tune - I would have made them tune it. That said, it's timber was all high end - very wierd sounding. But I prefer the mini-jumbo/O style to Dreadnaught shape, so I likely would have picked the Dragon guitar too.


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## mhammer

*Is one of us a TV star now?*

Last week, one of the members here directed us to watch the January 13 episode of Dragon's Den, without providing any more clues. So, I mentioned to my wife that there might be something guitar-related on last night, and that they should alert me if it occurs. Much to my pleasant surprise, the warning bore fruit, and two guys - one from Ottawa and one from Montreal - pitched their plan to make acoustic guitars.

Turns out Kevin O'Leary, the "Simon Cowell" of DD, plays guitar, and in a blindfold test preferred the instrument provided by the entrepreneurs over the much higher-priced instrument he also tried. kevin was described as "an accomplished guitar player", though I think they meant "accomplished" in the sense of "Okay, I'm done with that, no point in continuing any further.".

Eyes rolls to O'Leary aside, the Dragons came through, and backed McKenzie and Marr's venture. So congratulations guys! And kudos to the Dragons for letting their hearts lead for a change.

You know, for people who purport to be entrepreneurial wizzes, I found their declaration of surprise at someone "selling guitars over the internet" to be amusing. Yup. M'usicians Friend, Music123, Sweetwater, Sam Ash, Steve's, they're all floundering because, after all, who would buy a guitar over the internet? :smilie_flagge17: Not sure that crew exactly understands how forums like this, or HC, or any of a hundred others, transform cottage industries into viable businesses. Not overnight, necessarily, but Web 2.0 makes things like the McKenzie/Marr venture feasible.


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## mandoman

I enjoyed the show, Nice to see a guitar on it, The other guitar did not sound like a Collings or any other upper end guitar to me, It sounded like a First act...LOL
I have not played Collings guitars but have play many of their mandos and they were all first rate.

Also I would never buy a guitar without every trying it or at the least one like it.

Question is how long ago was that show taped? the website has not changed and Don't seen like the guitars have made a big dent in the industry. As I stated before it would be even nice to at least see a pic of what they have to offer. I could't even find a pic on their site.


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## Ship of fools

*It really bothers me*

That you have to creat an account with them before you can look at any of their inventory, so I'll pass on looking and buying and it has nothing to do with where the guitars are made.Ship


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## hollowbody

Yeah, the Collings was definitely out of tune, you could tell the moment the first chord was strummed on it.

I wonder if they did anything else to "sabotage" it?


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## Guest

Mark, see this thread: http://www.guitarscanada.com/showthread.php?t=30379

Apparently the guys who own the company have posted here but they're not regular attendees around here.


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## Howi

Mike MacLeod said:


> ....Bob Taylor has gone on record as saying that he does not want luthiers's in his factory. The point being that he can make guitars like Henry Ford made guitars. True, his guitars are consistent and high quality. But I think they are lacking that 'magic spark' when compared to the hand-builders.


I'm no expert in acoustics or even guitars in general. In fact, I've just started learning on them.

However, logic tells me that you're not making a fair comparison. Shouldn't you be comparing Taylors with other equivalent guitars from assembly line-styled manufactures like Yamaha, Takamine, or even Gibson or Martin?

Trying to compare a Taylor to a luthier's hand-build is like trying to compare a factory-spec. Porsche 911 Turbo to a F1 race car.



rollingdam said:


> taylors are well built and easy to play but they have no soul


Honest question here, not trying to be sarcastic in any way. What assembly line-styled manufactures would you consider to have _souls_? Or whatever they've got that Taylor doesn't?

Thanks,

Howi


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## Jeff Flowerday

I merged the multiple threads on the topic.

Let's keep it down to this one only, please.


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## Mooh

It seems like the whole episode was not without its bias.

On the Chinese issue, I have no qualms. There are some pretty good ones, especially the Eastmans, every one of which has impressed me from a quality and value aspect. (They all came through The 12th Fret, so you know they were good examples, well set up.) However, I'm not very interested in foreign made instruments anymore (beyond the requisite Tele and Strat). It's not a prejudice, just a preference for buying domestic made instruments in support of the domestic market, and a topical interest in things Canadian. I liken it to topical stamp collecting.

I have no beef with a company that wants to import products of quality, and since I haven't seen/heard/played these I have no opinion, but I don't need to have seen/heard/played these to know that the comparison to Collings was a set up. There needs to be impartiality, several comparators, expertise, and fairness. At first blush, the show smacks of deceit, but it will be interesting to see what really happens when the market passes judgment, and the real players have their say.

Frankly, it's an old venture anyway, investing in imports by finding investors to subsidize the risk, and not being really responsible for quality control. I would have thought they'd be more interested in investing in the actual manufacturing at the factory end, rather than the ordering and marketing end.

The jury may be out, but the case will be reheard as not all the witnesses have spoken.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Starbuck

I think Mark, for the most part guitar players are tactile by nature, I mean who amongst us can walk past a nice guitar in a store and resist touching it? Likewise, mostly for acoustics anyway, most of us feel that you must experince the guitar in question before it's purchased. That is the case with me, but I'm not buying many instruments. It was a long search, and a very enjoyable part of the purchase was the journey. That may be the case for alot of us. Buying a guitar is a learning experience, finding out that yes, a $1000 Godin can in fact sound just a good or better than that $5000 martin hanging up there. Taste is relative isn't it? I think that's also why a guitar player could ponder "how could someone buy and unknown entity off the internet"?

Maybe Mackenzie and Marr could donate one of their instruments for some lucky person to try??? :smile:


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## tcon

Why does nobody here seem to care where it's made? It's makes a big difference in resale value. Somebody from the twelfth fret in Toronto has told me that they rarely have Takamines or Yamahas. They think they sound great but a two thousand dollar Yamaha will be worth much less than a Martin of the same value twenty years from now. 

I'm sure these guitars sound great. But they are made in China but a new, fairly unknown brand. That's a big deal to me.


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## mhammer

There was a brief article about them in this morning's Ottawa Citizen, which noted the use of a wood I had not heard of previously called akoumé. Going to their website, it appears the DD episode is essentially "old news", and guitars have begun shipping.

And yes, whatever the "name brand" was that O'Leary played first, it was decidedly out of tune and sounded positively horrible; the sort of thing I'd expect to buy at The Source or Wal-Mart.

Which reminds me. I have been buying Vintage Guitar magazine for well over a decade (running out of shelf space!), and during the last 2-3 months saw about 5-6 full pages of advertising per issue for an acoustic guitar maker I had never heard of before by the name of Bedell Guitars. http://www.bedellguitars.com/

The ads made it seem like this was a Collings/Taylor-like company that had been around for ages, yet I had never heard the name ever. Not in an article, or a for-sale-by-owner classified, or even a little 1/16-page snippet in any magazine. Weird.

Finally, on the back of his business card, George Gruhn has the serial numbers of Martins made between 1899 and 2004. Martins are numbered serially, swuch that if the number is between 15846 and 16758, you know it was made in 1921, regardless of specific model. From 1899 to 1989, the numbers go up 493,279. By 2004, they have reached 1,042,558. Essentially, they produced more guitars during the 15 years spanning 1989-2004, than they did in the 90 years leading up to that period. Gruhn has some harsh things to say about decline in quality at Martin.


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## hollowbody

tcon said:


> Why does nobody here seem to care where it's made? It's makes a big difference in resale value. Somebody from the twelfth fret in Toronto has told me that they rarely have Takamines or Yamahas. They think they sound great but a two thousand dollar Yamaha will be worth much less than a Martin of the same value twenty years from now.
> 
> I'm sure these guitars sound great. But they are made in China but a new, fairly unknown brand. That's a big deal to me.


I guess it depends in you're purchasing with resale in mind. If I try a guitar and it's an absolute knock-out, I don't really care where it's made, because if I like it enough to buy it, I might not sell it. Sure, maybe it's somewhere in my mind, but I don't care if it was made in China, Zimbabwe or Tennessee. A good sounding guitar can be made anywhere, especially with all the CNC work that happens now.


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## tcon

*Apples and Oranges*



mhammer said:


> You know, for people who purport to be entrepreneurial wizzes, I found their declaration of surprise at someone "selling guitars over the internet" to be amusing. Yup. M'usicians Friend, Music123, Sweetwater, Sam Ash, Steve's, they're all floundering because, after all, who would buy a guitar over the internet? :smilie_flagge17: Not sure that crew exactly understands how forums like this, or HC, or any of a hundred others, transform cottage industries into viable businesses. Not overnight, necessarily, but Web 2.0 makes things like the McKenzie/Marr venture feasible.


Apples and Oranges. These online guitar sites are well-established and well reputed sites selling guitars with similar reputations. I can try a Gibson in my music store and buy the same one online because it is cheaper there. Also, many of these sites have real stores. I bought my Martin from 12 fret in Toronto from Montreal online because they set it up and if I had a problem, I could just return it. Would that kind of service and ease be present with these people?

People who buy guitars online usually buy models that have been around for years and that they could try at their friends house.


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## tcon

hollowbody said:


> I guess it depends in you're purchasing with resale in mind. If I try a guitar and it's an absolute knock-out, I don't really care where it's made, because if I like it enough to buy it, I might not sell it. Sure, maybe it's somewhere in my mind, but I don't care if it was made in China, Zimbabwe or Tennessee. A good sounding guitar can be made anywhere, especially with all the CNC work that happens now.


Resale is just one aspect. The other is aging. Local guitars have a reputation of sounding better in the future more than off-shore guitars.

I still wouldn't buy a hand-made 2000 dollar Yamaha. Because nobody likes the same thing forever and we always want what's new and cool. So, yes, one day I'll want to sell it and not get pennies for it.


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## Guest

tcon said:


> The other is aging. Local guitars have a reputation of sounding better in the future more than off-shore guitars.


You got something to back up that claim? Otherwise it sounds like wishful thinking on your part.


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## Ship of fools

*Okay*

Lets not go there and say that we agree to disagree, you say apples and the other says ap-ples we know that there is no way to prove either statement as to which sounds better with aging.
As to them being made in China shouldn't really worry you there are a limited amount of factories there that build for many names that have proven themselfs on the market ( Washburn and so forth ) but I do understand what you mean when you say do they have the ability to stick around like they have, who knows, depends on how amny folks buy into the Dragons Den, me I will stick with waht I know and what I can play with.Ship


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## zeebee

I have a completely different take. I do not believe at a $1000 they will not capture a significant market share. Its simply to competitive a market niche and moreover with the Lacey Act kicking in on April 1, exporting to the US will become a real issue....how long till Canada follows big brother.
As for it sounding better than a Collings...bet you old strings and a poor setup can fool anyone. That episode cost the show a lot of credibility in my mind....remember its main purpose is to entertain. These guys showed they know nothing of the guitar market based on the lack of critical questions.


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## mhammer

Look, if people outside of Montreal can learn how to make *real* bagels (honey water boiling, wood fired stove, no discernible top or bottom once baked), then anybody anywhere can learn how to produce items of quality.

What matters more than country of origin is where in the manufacturing trajectory you happen to make your purchase. There was a time when Ibanez was considered a crap brand, as was Yamaha. Over time, they both learned how to make quality instruments.


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## keeperofthegood

mhammer said:


> Look, if people outside of Montreal can learn how to make *real* bagels (honey water boiling, wood fired stove, no discernible top or bottom once baked), then anybody anywhere can learn how to produce items of quality.
> 
> What matters more than country of origin is where in the manufacturing trajectory you happen to make your purchase. There was a time when Ibanez was considered a crap brand, as was Yamaha. Over time, they both learned how to make quality instruments.


The only bagel I ever had that I ever truly loved was the first bagel I ever had. It was hand made by an old woman that worked a kitchen owned at the time by the University of Waterloo Engineering Student whatsit. It was big. It was heavy. She put a mile of cream cheese between the halves when cut. I have never since had such a good bagel. That was 25 years ago now, she it gone, the restaurant is gone, the building reconverted to other uses, but the memory is with me still (and for what I have lost, this is one I am happy to still have).


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## Starbuck

Well some of my Dad's generation think that when Gibson changed factories their guitars became crap as well.


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## Pneumonic

In the end, whether these guys become successful or not will depend on how they market their product. You can have the greatest product in the world but if no one knows about it then it's worthless.

These guys went onto DD in order to align themselves with knowledgeable and experienced businesspeople who come packaged with connections galore in the business sector and who have very deep pockets. They succeeding in bringing such people on board and, I believe they will be successful if, collectively, they come up with a wise marketing plan. Provided the product is as good as it appears to be.


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## Sneaky

mhammer said:


> Look, *if people outside of Montreal can learn how to make real bagels *(honey water boiling, wood fired stove, no discernible top or bottom once baked), then anybody anywhere can learn how to produce items of quality.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I have yet to see it done, so I dont buy yor argument. :sport-smiley-002:
> 
> I miss St Viateur.


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## mhammer

I lived 2 blocks from there and consider them the benchmark. And lo and behold, much to my shock and amazement, we have several places in Ottawa that do it up just as well.

Of course, if you're a purist, there ARE only 2 kinds of bagels, black seeds and white seeds. Anything else (cinnamon-raisin, sundried tomato, whole wheat yadda yadda) is simply sacrilege.

back to guitars.


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## Pneumonic

Bagel House on Avenue Rd (Bayview too?) does VG+ Montreal style bagels, IMHO. Not that I am a bagel connoisseur.


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## Sneaky

Pneumonic said:


> Bagel House on Avenue Rd (Bayview too?) does VG+ Montreal style bagels, IMHO. Not that I am a bagel connoisseur.


Oh yeah, there are good bagels in Toronto too. I used to live near Bathurst & Eglinton. I'm mostly lamenting the poor excuse for bagels they have here in Calgary.


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## hollowbody

tcon said:


> Resale is just one aspect. The other is aging. Local guitars have a reputation of sounding better in the future more than off-shore guitars.


Off-shore guitars have only become popular in the last handful of years, so there's no way to support a claim that they won't age well. Wood is wood. If they use good wood, it will age as nicely as a D28. You just hear of huge-sounding vintage D28s more because they, umm, actually exist. You're not going to find too many pre-war Takamines or Yamahas. 

Which isn't to say they weren't producing instruments, but when you talk about guitars from Korea, China and Japan, what you're really talking about is guitars that were made from the 70's onwards. Give it another 20 or 30 years and we'll see what those early red-label Gakki Yamahas are like.


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## hollowbody

Pneumonic said:


> Bagel House on Avenue Rd (Bayview too?) does VG+ Montreal style bagels, IMHO. Not that I am a bagel connoisseur.


Gryfe's Bagels is also very decent, but you really have to get them fresh from the oven and eat them warm.


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## Starbuck

hollowbody said:


> Gryfe's Bagels is also very decent, but you really have to get them fresh from the oven and eat them warm.



Yeah but the lineup is brutal!


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## zontar

tcon said:


> It's makes a big difference in resale value.


I don't buy guitars to re-sell, them--I buy them to keep & play them.
I don't buy on impulse--although I've come close.
I have put guitars up for sale in the past, but wound up not selling them.
And I'm glad about that. I'd have missed them.


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## ronmac

I watched the episode hoping that I would see the "little guys" present a nice product and that they could convince the Dragons to help them with their venture. I am all for giving folks a boost during their incubation stage, and have supported several luthiers early in their career by buying prototypes or very early models. Some have proven to be great instruments, while others....

There are a few things that really hit me the wrong way about this episode:

1) They are asking for $35K for 35% of the company. I would never give that percentage of my business away for that little money if I really believed I was onto something. 

2) The guitar "blind test" was a sham. The "$5K" guitar was a Bourgeois OM that streets for about $3.5K. I don't know what they did to that guitar (or perhaps more importantly didn't do - tune it with fresh strings) , but I have never heard a Bourgeois sound like that. 

3) This was the second time that these folks were on the show. Once to sell the idea, and the latter time to sell the product. Everyone involved were primed to make this a winner. 

4) The guys did contradict each other a couple of times. Is it a prototype, or is it a production model? I heard both answers, so I'm not sure.

Aside from all of that, I hope these guys do well. I like to see people live their dreams. Time will tell on that one.

I'm not concerned about where the product comes from. The real important link in the chain here is the folks that sell you the product and how they will support it, over the long haul. It's not uncommon to receive exceptional products from an overseas factory after they have initial processes ironed out. It's also very common for the quality of materials and assembly to slip significantly over time if the local folks don't keep the pressure on to maintain tight quality control at the factory level. Ask me how I know...

As one poster said "it's an entertainment show". That it is, but I felt a bit hustled after watching that one.


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## tcon

ronmac said:


> 2) The guitar "blind test" was a sham. The "$5K" guitar was a Bourgeois OM that streets for about $3.5K. I don't know what they did to that guitar (or perhaps more importantly didn't do - tune it with fresh strings) , but I have never heard a Bourgeois sound like that.


You are dead on in everything you said, Ron. Let me add two more things to that statement. 

How about wood combination? All woods are suited for a certain style of music. You cannot compare maple with what appeared to be Indian Rosewood. 

And as for the blind test, was it really "blind?" What I mean here is that Kevin could not see, but did they really go in there with no pre-tests? Or did they go out and tweak the other guitar until most people chose theirs? 

As for price, you also bring a great point. Usually, most products have a retail and street where the street is much lower than the retail. They cannot call the other guitar a 5k guitar because it would never sell at that price.


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## hollowbody

ronmac said:


> I watched the episode hoping that I would see the "little guys" present a nice product and that they could convince the Dragons to help them with their venture. I am all for giving folks a boost during their incubation stage, and have supported several luthiers early in their career by buying prototypes or very early models. Some have proven to be great instruments, while others....
> 
> There are a few things that really hit me the wrong way about this episode:
> 
> 1) They are asking for $35K for 35% of the company. I would never give that percentage of my business away for that little money if I really believed I was onto something.
> 
> 2) The guitar "blind test" was a sham. The "$5K" guitar was a Bourgeois OM that streets for about $3.5K. I don't know what they did to that guitar (or perhaps more importantly didn't do - tune it with fresh strings) , but I have never heard a Bourgeois sound like that.
> 
> 3) This was the second time that these folks were on the show. Once to sell the idea, and the latter time to sell the product. Everyone involved were primed to make this a winner.
> 
> 4) The guys did contradict each other a couple of times. Is it a prototype, or is it a production model? I heard both answers, so I'm not sure.
> 
> Aside from all of that, I hope these guys do well. I like to see people live their dreams. Time will tell on that one.
> 
> I'm not concerned about where the product comes from. The real important link in the chain here is the folks that sell you the product and how they will support it, over the long haul. It's not uncommon to receive exceptional products from an overseas factory after they have initial processes ironed out. It's also very common for the quality of materials and assembly to slip significantly over time if the local folks don't keep the pressure on to maintain tight quality control at the factory level. Ask me how I know...
> 
> As one poster said "it's an entertainment show". That it is, but I felt a bit hustled after watching that one.


What rubbed me wrong about the two of them is that while they seem to be genuinely interested in guitars, I don't think either of them is a luthier. At least, I didn't get that from what I heard and saw. So who was it that came up with the design for the guitar and who made the decisions on the woods? Was it all the off-shore mfg company? It seems to me like these two are just putting money into it and hoping to sell a product someone else makes.


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## Mooh

hollowbody said:


> What rubbed me wrong about the two of them is that while they seem to be genuinely interested in guitars, I don't think either of them is a luthier. At least, I didn't get that from what I heard and saw. So who was it that came up with the design for the guitar and who made the decisions on the woods? Was it all the off-shore mfg company? It seems to me like these two are just putting money into it and hoping to sell a product someone else makes.


Isn't one a doctor and the other a computer specialist? Sounds to me like it's a couple of guys who want to profit from importing, but with a different spin on the marketing. Nothing new about that, capitalism at work and all that, but I don't see that they have manufacturing oversight. 

Peace, Mooh.


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## hollowbody

Mooh said:


> Isn't one a doctor and the other a computer specialist? Sounds to me like it's a couple of guys who want to profit from importing, but with a different spin on the marketing. Nothing new about that, capitalism at work and all that, but I don't see that they have manufacturing oversight.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


No, certainly nothing wrong with it, but I like to think that the people who are responsible for the R&D, design, mfg, etc. of my guitar are people who are informed, experienced and passionate about the craft. I guess I'm old-fashioned that way. :smile:


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## Mooh

hollowbody said:


> No, certainly nothing wrong with it, but I like to think that the people who are responsible for the R&D, design, mfg, etc. of my guitar are people who are informed, experienced and passionate about the craft. I guess I'm old-fashioned that way. :smile:


Couldn't agree more.

Peace, Mooh.


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