# Hagstrom Tone Switch



## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

Was looking at a '70s Hagstrom for sale on Kijiji, which sadly is a bit outta my budget... But was looking at the wiring for it and wondered how it works.

It has your typical Les Paul setup, 3way and 2vol and 2tone... But it also has another 3way switch hooked up with a 0.047uf cap. 

Never seen/used a guitar with that setup. 

How does that 3way tone switch work? Does it double the value of the capacitance?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Is this the guitar?
Calling all Luthiers 1970 Hagsrom Swede Guitar project. | Guitars | Kitchener / Waterloo | Kijiji

I'm assuming the extra switch functions as a way of selecting additional tone caps to combine with the existing (I think there are actually 2 caps wired to the switch). 

As the circuit has been modded (as stated by the seller ..._"Both switches, and all the pots and wiring ,the knobs are not original nor are the pickup rings and pick ups."_ ) it would be interesting to see an example of a stock circuit.


















This wiring looks incorrect as all of the pots appear to be connected by ground...









I'm still relaxing with my first coffee and will come back to this when my brain is "more" awake".

I'm looking forward to the comments from others.


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## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

lots of info in Googleland. 
hagstrom swede schematic - Google Search


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Just found this...posting at the same time as @loudtubeamps ...LOL


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

Yup, that's the one, and I found the schematics before I posted.

I've never seen a guitar with a 2-way switch with a cap, plus tone pots with caps... just wondering how that affects sound and why have it? Wouldn't doubling the value on the tone pots be the same? turn the pot down to half would be like switching the 2-way switch off, no?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

The caps at the switch are in series with the output. Caps in series will reduce the electronics value of the caps on the pots.

Please correct me if I am mistaken and my apologies if I'm being Capt. Obvious.

Hopefully @mhammer will see this and comment (hint, hint). He writes very eloquently and succinctly about the interaction of capacitance and variable resistance and the resultant influence on tone. Thanks, Mark.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

This looks interesting. I wonder if this guitar has ground loop issues and hum?

Ironically, this seller is located a very short distance from me.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Too many ground wires. Ground loop has been made. Cut at least one of those grounds to the pot.


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## dtsaudio (Apr 15, 2009)

Actually, the caps are not in series with output. They are across the output. Notice one leg goes to ground. They act roll off the highs after the volume controls. 
I've played one a Hagstrom with this feature (semi-acoustic), works quite well to fatten up the sound. 
No ground loop hum either.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

knight_yyz said:


> Too many ground wires. Ground loop has been made. Cut at least one of those grounds to the pot.


I thought so also (see my post #2 where I stated that). However, possibly not...


dtsaudio said:


> *No ground loop hum either.*





dtsaudio said:


> They are across the output. Notice one leg goes to ground. They act roll off the highs after the volume controls.


@dtsaudio Thanks. I need to look more carefully! However, I am learning thanks to all the folks in the forum (like yourself) that take the time to explain these things. Much appreciated.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Assuming the schematic is accurate, Dan is half right. Unlike the Fender-type wiring many of us are used to, where the pickups go to the selector switch and then to Tone and Volume controls, the Hagstrom wiring shown goes to the individual pickup controls first and then to the selector, then to the Tone switch and out. It adds a few more ounces of shielded cable going back and forth, but I imagine that extra weight is offset by the routing required to provide the channels for the cabling.

In one position, the Tone switch sticks a 4700pf cap in series with the output to choke off the lows. Because that cap is left "floating", it will provide some audible popping when the guitar goes into a true-bypass pedal first. Not much, because there is no DC feeding it, but potentially a little. IN theory, this Tone switch setting is a bit like the "strangle" switch on a Fender Jaguar, that does a similar thing.

In the middle Tone switch position, the selected pickup/s goes/go directly to the output jack without further tone-shaping. In the third Tone-switch position, that 15nf cap shunts any top end from the signal, regardless of the Tone control settings or which pickup is selected, to ground. Because it is 1/3 the value of the stock tone caps, even when both tone controls are set to brightest, that 15nf cap will "round off" the tone, without creating a muted sound.

Used in tandem with the pickups' individual Tone controls, that 3-way switch can provide a much broader range of sounds. Nice idea, although I'd prefer to see a 1meg resistor to ground on the output.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

@mhammer Thanks again.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

My pleasure, Dave. Interesting circuit. The guitar pictured is a stunner. I can see why people like their Swedes.


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

Ya I wish it were in the budget but, not working during the pandemic and building the workshop has gotten outta control.  

I'd like to try that setup some day though. 

Curious though, seen a few of these now with neck binding missing. If repairing, would you replace the section, or strip all neck binding off and start over? Maybe even refret?


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## dtsaudio (Apr 15, 2009)

Good catch mhammer. I didn't see that 4700p went to the volume pot (not enough coffee).
It's been a while, but I don't remember any popping when the switches were actuated, but then I wasn't playing it at any real volume, so may not have noticed. 
The effectiveness does vary with volume too.


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

@greco yup, your neck of the woods. 

Seems it is missing all binding one side of the neck, half the other, cheap Wilkinson pickups as well. 

I've seen mint ones sell for big bucks, but, with the original guts missing and replacing the binding, probably frets, is it worth the price?

The work I want to do, looks like fun, never handled binding before, but have restored a few teisco/kawai guitars and be nice to do something different. Need some more work under my belt before I tackle other people's guitars. This looks like it will be a good one for practice, but... In it's current state... $675?


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## marksgionet (Oct 26, 2021)

THRobinson said:


> Was looking at a '70s Hagstrom for sale on Kijiji, which sadly is a bit outta my budget... But was looking at the wiring for it and wondered how it works.
> 
> It has your typical Les Paul setup, 3way and 2vol and 2tone... But it also has another 3way switch hooked up with a 0.047uf cap.
> 
> ...


hello -- sorry new to the forum -- and saw this discussion -- i have a more basic question about the 3 way switch on my 73 swede -- i need to replace it .. can i use a gibson switch or would it not fit? thank you .... Mark


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

EDIT...Wrong info provided. See later posts by @THRobinson


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## marksgionet (Oct 26, 2021)

marksgionet said:


> hello -- sorry new to the forum -- and saw this discussion -- i have a more basic question about the 3 way switch on my 73 swede -- i need to replace it .. can i use a gibson switch or would it not fit? thank you .... Mark


yes definitely type 1 -- i think i have plenty of room ... thanks will give it a try


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

If it's the 3way pickup selector the Gibson style should work, if it's the tone selector switch no... It has a few more terminals on it. 

My guitars (11 of them) have been on hold all year. Workshop in pieces and some back issues have delayed things so, my Hagstrom is still untouched, but I do have all the parts now. I bought all new Hagstrom parts from the Canadian Hagstrom distributor, including the two switches... Mine should be ok, but a previous owner botched the wiring so couldn't test Ag the time... That said, since I ordered pickups, rings, knobs, pickguard... Figured just order the switches and have if needed. 

Got any pics of the Hagstrom?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

THRobinson said:


> If it's the 3way pickup selector the Gibson style should work, if it's the tone selector switch no... It has a few more terminals on it.
> 
> My guitars (11 of them) have been on hold all year. Workshop in pieces and some back issues have delayed things so, my Hagstrom is still untouched, but I do have all the parts now. I bought all new Hagstrom parts from the Canadian Hagstrom distributor, including the two switches... Mine should be ok, but a previous owner botched the wiring so couldn't test Ag the time... That said, since I ordered pickups, rings, knobs, pickguard... Figured just order the switches and have if needed.
> 
> Got any pics of the Hagstrom?


Good thing you mentioned that there is a difference in switches as they appear to look the same on the schematic.


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

Oh, nice... someone made an easier to follow diagram... I knew of 2 diagrams when I last looked, just found a new one which I'll attach. Can't seem to find the other though oddly... I hate when you know it exists but just can't get the right search to bring it up.

I also took a photo of the switches I have. Left is the tone select, Right is a normal looking 3-way. I should have had them laying the same way but didn't think of it... in any case, I circled the 2 extra tabs.

I oddly enjoy drawing out easy to read diagrams in Illustrator. Everytime I have some weird wiring figured out I make a copy in Illustrator for future reference. I think I'll do one for the Swede, but will need someone to give ist a going over since I haven't yet wired mine to know if it works.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

@THRobinson Excellent pics and diagram.

I certainly hope @marksgionet sees your post!



THRobinson said:


> Oh, nice... someone made an easier to follow diagram... I knew of 2 diagrams when I last looked, just found a new one which I'll attach. Can't seem to find the other though oddly... I hate when you know it exists but just can't get the right search to bring it up.
> 
> I also took a photo of the switches I have. Left is the tone select, Right is a normal looking 3-way. I should have had them laying the same way but didn't think of it... in any case, I circled the 2 extra tabs.
> 
> ...


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

greco said:


> @THRobinson Excellent pics and diagram.
> 
> I certainly hope @marksgionet sees your post!


 I'm glad he revived this thread, else I'd probably not have Googled for a diagram again since already have one... that new switch one helps.


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## Mgionet (Oct 26, 2021)

THRobinson said:


> If it's the 3way pickup selector the Gibson style should work, if it's the tone selector switch no... It has a few more terminals on it.
> 
> My guitars (11 of them) have been on hold all year. Workshop in pieces and some back issues have delayed things so, my Hagstrom is still untouched, but I do have all the parts now. I bought all new Hagstrom parts from the Canadian Hagstrom distributor, including the two switches... Mine should be ok, but a previous owner botched the wiring so couldn't test Ag the time... That said, since I ordered pickups, rings, knobs, pickguard... Figured just order the switches and have if needed.
> 
> ...


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

Ya, I was confused at first as well because it has 2 icons for images... if you click the camera icon it asks to add an image from your album... click the small photo icon and you can add an image that way.


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

Oh... looky what I found...


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

So... redrawing the diagram because I already started and want something a bit better... few spots on this one are vague and confusing. I believe this is for the modern Swede (dated 2015) since mine doesn't have the treble bleed parts. Though, my pots don't look original and at least 2 brands in there so, this may have been removed.

For the below... any ideas if brown/green/orange/grey? yellow/grey? gold/grey? or is the grey silver?

I found this chart below, based off the resistor values, brown/green/yellow/grey is 150 kΩ which seems in the same range as others.

Cap is 0.001... any guesses if uf or pf? since the diagram uses both units of measure.

I'm assuming it attaches to the Vol pot, and in parallel correct?

Is a treble bleed mod worth the trouble?

EDIT - Nice... NextGen has pre-soldered ones, 0.001uf/150kΩ ... so, I guess that's what it is. Still though... worth the effort?

*PRS – *180 pF cap (500 kΩ volume pot, no parallel/series resistor)
*G&L* – 200 pF (no resistor)
*Bill Lawrence* – 330 pF capacitor & 80 kΩ resistor
*Mojo Tone* – 471 pF capacitor & 220 kΩ resistor
*DiMarzio* – 560 pF capacitor & 300 kΩ resistor
*John Suhr* – 680 pF capacitor & 150kΩ resistor
*TV Jones* – 1 nF capacitor & 150 kΩ resistor (2 nF cap suggested for 500 kΩ pot, humbucker)
*Fender* – 1.2 nF capacitor & 150 kΩ resistor in parallel, plus a 20 kΩ resistor in series
*Seymour Duncan* – 1 nF capacitor & 100 kΩ resistor
*Chris Kinman* – 1.2 nF capacitor with 130 kΩ resistor* in series
Lindy Fralin* – 2.5 nF capacitor & 200 kΩ resistor


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

@THRobinson WOW!...You have been doing a lot of work and research on this!


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

THRobinson said:


> For the below... any ideas if brown/green/orange/grey? yellow/grey? gold/grey? or is the grey silver?


Grey is ±0.05% tolerance and silver is ±10% tolerance. Probably silver as the circuit values will not be critical.


THRobinson said:


> Is a treble bleed mod worth the trouble?


I believe it's worth a shot...


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

greco said:


> @THRobinson WOW!...You have been doing a lot of work and research on this!


Kinda... when I got the guitar I did a tonne of research to see what all was needed to restore it and never dealt with a tone switch before... then nothing for the past 18 months... it's been sitting untouched in a case along with a bunch of other guitars. Then this popped up when the thread was revived and while trying to find a specific diagram found a bit more new info.

That said... I still find a chunk of that diagram hard to follow so mine will have coloured wires so much easier to follow.

Still plan to sorta restore it... people want $600/pair for original Hagstrom pickups, and that's never gonna happen. About $300 for the tuners. I bought Hagstrom parts, but all new to replace what's missing, and Bourns pots. Will sand it down, replace all the binding, use Oxford Supply cherry red nitro for the refinish since it was originally red and as nice as natural wood looks, I prefer red.


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

There... Checked with the Hagstrom Facebook page, made sure it's correct. Basically the modern Swede has a treble bleed circuit and uses 0.047uf caps... If doing a vintage Swede, use 0.022uf caps and omit the treble bleed. 

I have a PDF as well if anyone wants it.


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## jayTO (20 d ago)

THRobinson said:


> There... Checked with the Hagstrom Facebook page, made sure it's correct. Basically the modern Swede has a treble bleed circuit and uses 0.047uf caps... If doing a vintage Swede, use 0.022uf caps and omit the treble bleed.
> 
> I have a PDF as well if anyone wants it.
> View attachment 385238


Hi, I'm so glad I stumbled across this board and your diagrams! I have a 1976 Swede that didn't have the tone switch installed when I bought it (but I have the switch) I've been scouring the internet trying to understand how to wire it back in. Right now the jack goes straight to the pickup selector and the rest looks straight forward.

I think your diagram is based on the newer Swede tone switch. I have the old one (4 points) and really can't figure out how to wire it exactly. I've attached some pics of the switch. Based on the original Hagstrom diagrams (and yours) I know the jack needs to go to the tone switch first and then the pickup selector, I'm just unsure how to do it with the 4 point switch.

Any chance you can have a look and let me know if you have any ideas?

Thanks




  








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jayTO


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20 d ago












  








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jayTO


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Jay
(Halifax)


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

I had a lot of issues finding a diagram that (to me) made sense and sorta pieced together the old and new diagrams... newer has a different cap value and a treble bleed at the pots. I'm not an electronics kinda guy and have a very basic idea of how the diagrams work, but often end up making my own. Made an entire library of parts to just drop into illustrator and make the diagrams. There's a software/app for it out there, forgot the name.

Sadly, because life got in the way and that @#$%ing basement of mine went from being a 3 month project to 2yrs... that Hagstrom of mine hasn't been touched and still buried in a stack of guitars waiting to be finished. The photos I took of the switches are definitely from a new Swede because ordered the parts new from Hagstrom. Diagram above was 2015. The older diagram in this thread, switches are lines and dots and honestly no idea how to read that.

I'll be figuring it out eventually when I refinish mine. If the old switches work I'll clean and use them. Unfortunately, can't help at this point because it's not on my TODO list for a while.

Maybe the vintage Hagstrom Facebook group will know? I tried there when I was making this diagram. Got some help... not a whole lot.









Hagstrom Vintage Guitars, made in Sweden - where else! | Facebook


This is the place for all of us that likes the old Swedish made Hagstrom guitars, basses and amps!




www.facebook.com


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## jayTO (20 d ago)

Thanks for the reply. Sounds like we've done a lot of the same research trying to match that old diagram with the 2005, and the old switches against the new ones. I'll forge ahead and if I figure it out I'll post an updated diagram here.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

jayTO said:


> the 4 point switch


You should be able to trace the switching elements back to their contacts and draw a schematic of the switch.


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