# Retrosonic Analog Delay



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Well the only reason I'm picking up this pedal is purely on recommendation. I've never even heard it. No one around here really deal in Retrosonic where I could try it so I ordered one from axeandyoushallrecieve. After a long wait for them to come in its finally here. It will be replacing my Boss gigadelay DD20 (and the last non- boutique, non true bypass on my board.) 
From the reviews I've read it seems to be what I'm looking for.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I corresponded with maker Tim Larwill at length during the development of it. The design goal was essentially to provide a functional clone of the DM-2, but with a feature set that would situate it apart from a number of other analog delays out there. Tim picked himself up a Maxon AD-999 and studied it carefully, along with other pedals. Since he already had them machined for other Retrosonic pedals, the platform would be a Hammond 1590BB box with two stompswitches, and 4 knobs and *maybe* a toggle or two. I encouraged him to incorporate an input-kill switch as the alternate footswitch. This is a switch that would allow you to kill the input to the delay path such that you could continue to play over top of whatever was currently recircultating in the delay portion of the pedal without adding delay to whatever you were currently playing. He kind of liked the idea and tinkered with it, but in the end, it proved to be a bit of a design challenge. I'm not sure Tim had ever played with such a feature, so maybe he gave up on it prematurely by not knowing what delights it could hold. In any event, he went with using 8192 stages of delay, as opposed to the 4096 stages found in the vast majority of analog delays. This allowed him to set the sample rate a bit higher for greater fidelity and bandwidth, and still squeeze out a decently long delay time. The delay chips are NOT the same ones as the DM-2 (MN3005), but rather the ones used in the DM-3 (MN3205). I don't think that makes a pinch of difference sonically. The short/long switch that he decided to use instead of the input-kill simply taps the signal after the first delay chip, rather than the second one. It does not alter the sampling frequency (clock rate). Having the higher sampling rate and wider bandwidth also provided the freedom to introduce a tone control for the delay signal that could provide usable variation.

Tim makes a good product. Maybe not as adventurous as I would make if I were in the pedal-making biz, but then he's the one selling them like hotcakes, and I'm just the bystander with a head full of big ideas. I can say for a fact, after knowing him for a few years now, and engaging in plenty of correspondance and face time, that he takes customer feedback seriously and uses it to improve his pedals. You should be happy with it, and if it stops thrilling you at some point, it will hold up well in resale value.

Congrats!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

mhammer said:


> I corresponded with maker Tim Larwill at length during the development of it. The design goal was essentially to provide a functional clone of the DM-2, but with a feature set that would situate it apart from a number of other analog delays out there. Tim picked himself up a Maxon AD-999 and studied it carefully, along with other pedals. Since he already had them machined for other Retrosonic pedals, the platform would be a Hammond 1590BB box with two stompswitches, and 4 knobs and *maybe* a toggle or two. I encouraged him to incorporate an input-kill switch as the alternate footswitch. This is a switch that would allow you to kill the input to the delay path such that you could continue to play over top of whatever was currently recircultating in the delay portion of the pedal without adding delay to whatever you were currently playing. He kind of liked the idea and tinkered with it, but in the end, it proved to be a bit of a design challenge. I'm not sure Tim had ever played with such a feature, so maybe he gave up on it prematurely by not knowing what delights it could hold. In any event, he went with using 8192 stages of delay, as opposed to the 4096 stages found in the vast majority of analog delays. This allowed him to set the sample rate a bit higher for greater fidelity and bandwidth, and still squeeze out a decently long delay time. The delay chips are NOT the same ones as the DM-2 (MN3005), but rather the ones used in the DM-3 (MN3205). I don't think that makes a pinch of difference sonically. The short/long switch that he decided to use instead of the input-kill simply taps the signal after the first delay chip, rather than the second one. It does not alter the sampling frequency (clock rate). Having the higher sampling rate and wider bandwidth also provided the freedom to introduce a tone control for the delay signal that could provide usable variation.
> 
> Tim makes a good product. Maybe not as adventurous as I would make if I were in the pedal-making biz, but then he's the one selling them like hotcakes, and I'm just the bystander with a head full of big ideas. I can say for a fact, after knowing him for a few years now, and engaging in plenty of correspondance and face time, that he takes customer feedback seriously and uses it to improve his pedals. You should be happy with it, and if it stops thrilling you at some point, it will hold up well in resale value.
> 
> Congrats!


Well fortunately I don't really want a delay pedal that thrills me. Infact, while researching all of the very few pedals on my board I want none of them to take much more of a role in my overall sound other than to shape my tone and leave the sound signal from amp to guitar as intact as possible. 
What I want from my delay pedal is one setting that fattens up my tone. Just a slight almost un noticeable delay. Then a long delay for a spacier effect. Thats it. I've subscribed to the "keep it as simple as possible" philosophy. I think that I'll be getting this with the retrosonic delay.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

"Thrill" also includes doing exactly what you want and no more. If that requirement is simple, then so be it.


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## Guest (Jul 30, 2008)

mhammer said:


> "Thrill" also includes doing exactly what you want and no more. If that requirement is simple, then so be it.


:smile: Well put.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Good choice! I bought one of those a while back and it’s a really great no-nonsense analogue delay. The tone knob is really good for darkening (or lightening) up the repeats…
I sometimes run it in stereo, with the delay channel going through a TC chorus for some modulation, which sounds great.

The only thing I’d prefer would be if the double stomp switches allowed you to set up two different delay times instead of just halving the set delay, but then you start to drift away from the no-nonsense approach.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

People underestimate how powerful a delay tone control can be.

In the real world, reflected sound varies in its tonal quality based on delay time. Usually, if the sound is bouncing back from far away (long delay), unless it is a glass cathedral or something unusual like that, the repeats are much duller than the original. If the sound is bouncing off one surface and then another (which is how second and 3rd iterations sound), it is even duller.

What I've been doing for over 25 years now is sticking a small cap in the feedback loop to chop progressively more and more treble off the top of the repeat signal. It certainly doesn't mimic true reverb, but it moves more in that direction. 

If one is using a delay to provide a kind of background "wash" with lots of repeats, trimming most of the treble off the delay signal allows you to crank the level of the delay side without having it seem to clutter up the sound. I suspect this is because the presence of all the harmonic content n the dry signal, and near total absence in the wet signal, lets you mentally separate them, and essentially ignore the wet signal, treating it like an out of focus background behind a crisply focussed foreground element.

Combining a small progressive treble trim in the feedback path, and a global treble trim in the final delay path can do a nice job of making delays more usable for ambience rather than in-your-face delays.

It'd be nice if someone rsurrected the old MXR/Ross analog delay and tacked a tone control on it. MXR introduced a nifty trick with that unit by implementing a tracking filter. Where other companies picked a given frequency for lowpass filtering the delay signal and stuck to it across all delay times, MXR used a single master clock that would be divided down one way for the delay chip, and another way for a switched-resistor filter circuit. That way, you could have the most bandwidth/treble feasible at any delay-time setting, with the filter moving lower for the longest delays. In tandem with a tone control, a person could have delightfully bright short-delay repeats if they wanted, or much duller.


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## Teleplucker (Feb 5, 2006)

Someday, I would like to own one of these. The DM-2 is my favorite delay and to have ~2x delay time with a tone knob is great. Of course, I would also like to have one of the new Memory Lanes too (which, if I'm not mistaken, uses MN3005 chips). Maybe someday my cash reserves will catch up with my spending again :smile:.

Nit picky point...MN3205's were used in the DM-2 too. That's the chip in mine. I've got a couple of DOD delays from the same period that used MN3005's for some reason.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Point of clarification about the MN3205/3005.

ALL analog BBDs require a bias voltage on the input in order to pass signal. If you set the bias voltage with a trimpot that simply divides down the battery voltage, then as the battery ages the trimpot-set bias becomes invalid, even though there may well be enough battery juice to power the pedal, and sound quality starts to suffer.

The MN3205 was developed to run at lower voltages. This means you can run it off a 5V regulator. In turn, a 5V regulator can run successfully off of as little as 7VDC of battery power. If the bias voltage for the BBD is taken by dividing down that stable *regulated* 5V, it continues to remain valid, even as the battery ages, so whatever they set it for at the factory IS the right bias, now and forever. By the time the battery has dropped below the required 7V, it's probably too weak to power up the rest of the circuit anyway, so the MN3205 essentially lets you get reliable performance from the BBD over a longer portion of the battery's lifespan. Whatever theoretical headroom advantages might exist by being able to run an MN3005 off of 15v probably pale in comparison to what happens to the sound when your $5 Duracell drops down to 8V.

For folks who would NEVER go without wall power, that stable-bias thing obviously holds no advantage to them, but there are a lot of battery users in the world.

And yes, the DM-2 was made initially with an MN3005 and then changed over to an MN3205. Somewhere out there on some forum is someone who swears they hear better audio performance from the earlier issue, and somewhere out there is someone who will tout the clear advantage of an MN3005 over an MN3205. But my sense is that when you factor out stuff like powering the rest of your op-amps with 15VDC because the MN3005 wants it, or simple component tolerance differences in the filters across pedals, there is precious little audible difference in the BBDs themselves, and probably more variation within MN3005s across batches than between the two generations of the chip.

Bottom line: MN3205s ARE available and MN3005's aren't (Mike Matthews and Bob Moog bought pretty much all of the world's supply in the early 1990's), and they aren't different enough to worry about. So be happy with 3205s.


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## Teleplucker (Feb 5, 2006)

Thanks for the explanation of the differences between the 3005 and 3205, Mr. Hammer. I'll be watching my battery life with my multimeter for the DOD's that I picked up :smile:.

Question...I run my DM-2 off my Pedal Power with the "ACA setting"...aka, flip a dip switch for 12V. I did the same thing for my old DM-3 when it was on my pedal board before I found the DM-2. Both had MN3205's. It sounds like I should be able to run either pedal off the regular 9V setting, no? Although, if I recall correctly, ACA is center pin positive (which makes me wonder why that particular setting with the Pedal Power works since I think it just switches to 12V and doesn't change the polarity, or whatever the correct term is).

Second question...if I understand your explanation correctly, a MN3005 is happier getting juiced with 12V, yes? Of the two DOD delays i bought, the FX96 is the one with a normal, Boss-style power adaptor, so I can experiment with 9 and 12V off the Pedal Power. A review in Harmony-Central mentioned that the pedal sounded way better, in the reviewer's mind, getting 12V compared to 9V. Perhaps, it was due to how the chip operates relative to available power.

O.K....a couple more questions while I'm going... (1) The first DOD delay I bought was a FX90 with the odd DOD power adaptor plugs...does anyone know how, or if, it can be used with a pedal power with some sort of adaptor cable (perhaps like the ones that come with a TS-808 RI - male plug to female plug of sorts)...(2) why is the light on my DM-2 so much dimmer when I power it up with the pedal power compared to a fresh 9V battery?

Thanks...


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There is perhaps marginally more headroom in an MN3005 if it is powered with 12v vs 9v. Of course, since that would require a rebias, you can't just change the juice without changing the bias trimpot. It is quite possible to rebias or set bias by ear, but you need to do it under optimal circumstances, since what you are aiming for is the cleanest possible delay sound. That would imply: a) setting the mix for 100% wet so that you hear wet only, b) using a clean input signal for the pedal, and c) being able to monitor the audible output under favourable conditions (a clean headphone amp may be best for this job). As one approaches the correct bias setting the delay sound goes from not there (under/overbiased) to distorted, to lightly distorted to clean. The closer you are to the optimal bias setting, coming from either direction, the cleaner the delay signal starts to sound. Misbiasing is a frequent source of problems in delay, chorus, and flanger pedals.

You DO want to observe proper supply polarity when using wallwarts. Although there are thousands of different commercially available supplies that will do the job nicely, Roland/Boss insists on you using theirs because it is easier to just tell you to do that than to explain what to look for in a supply, cross their corporate fingers, and hope they don't get a s**tload of units to repair. Trust me, they would rather not have to make and sell a PSU, given that the markup is so low. But at the same time, they would much rather make a PSU than deal with the customer complaints about product failure.

Many effects can work with supply voltages greater than 9vdc. Obviously many actually DO require 12, 15, and 18v, but those that normally run off a 9v battery often don't HAVE to be operated with 9vdc. Nine volts just happens to be a standard battery value and optimal power/package-size combination. 

When effects are intended to be clean, it is often the case that upping the supply voltage can provide greater headroom, and less clipping. People often find that their distortions do not necessarily sound better though, and certainly for a number of germanium-transistor based pedals, many manufacturers have started making supplies that permit reducing the supply voltage below 9v. In other instances, the pedal can work better at a higher voltage, but something inside needs to be adjusted to permit that. It's not like sticking higher octane gas in your tank and the car just "runs better". Sometimes things are set in the pedal in anticipation of 9vdc. Not that they can't be re-set in anticipation of 12 or 15v, but since 9v is the standard, that's how they set them up.

Then there are the "weird cases". I have a pair of Boss BF-1 flangers. The chassis says "9vdc" beside the wallwart jack, but the service manual says 12vdc. Powered with 9v it sounds pretty good, but powered with 12v it sounds REALLY good, largely because it affects the sweep. It would seem that he service manual info is correct and what's legended on the pedal itself is wrong. Of course, we're talking about a 30 year-old pedal, so I imagine info on pedals is more accurate these days; companies DO learn their lessons.

As for 9v batteries, many of them are actually higher than 9v when steaming fresh, so that may account for the difference in visibility. I've found that when I recharge alkalines I can easily bring them up to 10.2vdc.


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## sh333 (Apr 6, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Well the only reason I'm picking up this pedal is purely on recommendation. I've never even heard it. No one around here really deal in Retrosonic where I could try it so I ordered one from axeandyoushallrecieve. After a long wait for them to come in its finally here. It will be replacing my Boss gigadelay DD20 (and the last non- boutique, non true bypass on my board.)
> From the reviews I've read it seems to be what I'm looking for.


Are you digging it? :wave:


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

sh333 said:


> Are you digging it? :wave:


I got mine from Scott last year and I love it. Great chewy analogue delay. 

What is the rule that you must accumulate delay pedals over time? I just counted and right now I have 5: 

Retro-Sonic analogue
EHX DMM analogue
Boss DSD-2 digital/sampler
Digitech PSD-8000 digital/looper
Line 6 DL-4 digital/looper


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## sh333 (Apr 6, 2006)

devnulljp said:


> I got mine from Scott last year and I love it. Great chewy analogue delay.
> 
> What is the rule that you must accumulate delay pedals over time? I just counted and right now I have 5:
> 
> ...


1 per year is acceptable unless it is a leap year in which you should buy 2 or 3 depending on mood. :banana:


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

sh333 said:


> 1 per year is acceptable unless it is a leap year in which you should buy 2 or 3 depending on mood. :banana:


Does that mean you drop the price if the year is divisible by 4?


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## sh333 (Apr 6, 2006)

devnulljp said:


> Does that mean you drop the price if the year is divisible by 4?


I will have to think on that. :smile:

Might be a good sale idea :smilie_flagge17:


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

sh333 said:


> Are you digging it? :wave:



Yes this delay is very nice and really compliments my tone. Its basic and fits nicely with my "no frills", feature wise, rig.


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## sh333 (Apr 6, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Yes this delay is very nice and really compliments my tone. Its basic and fits nicely with my "no frills", feature wise, rig.


Cool.

:food-smiley-004:


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## grahamstuart (Jun 29, 2012)

any chance your pds 8000 is for sale? big frisell fan here


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

grahamstuart said:


> any chance your pds 8000 is for sale? big frisell fan here


wow another zombie from 7 years ago. Oddly I have the original pedal that this thread is referring to, I bought it from Guitarman. It has been my go to analog for several years.


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## WonderfulRemark (Jun 2, 2013)

I have had one for a couple years now, picked it up from al3d on here. 

While it is a great analog delay, I find it a little to subtle. So I did recently pick up an el capistan. Now all my basis are covered


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

WonderfulRemark said:


> I have had one for a couple years now, picked it up from al3d on here.
> 
> While it is a great analog delay, I find it a little to subtle. So I did recently pick up an el capistan. Now all my basis are covered


Yes, no modulation. It does a great melt away dark analog echo, but that's it. It does that sound better than any pedal I have used. It is great for running after dirt pedals, or to thicken things up. I have a Fulltone tape echo as well for the modulated delay sounds.


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