# How much does a gig pay?



## Wild Bill

We sorta had a thread about this before but I don't recall ever coming to a well-founded conclusion.

Here in Hamilton a band is lucky to get $200-$250 for a Friday or Saturday night. Some touring acts command a cover and get much more of course but my figure is about right for the typical bar band. Everybody seems to run either solo or at most 3 piece because of the poor money.

I remember the early 70's when a "C" level band like the one I worked for would get $2400 for a 6 nighter in Tillsonburg or St. Thomas. We had clubs like the El-Mar, Duffy's, Town Casino and others that paid great and were always packed. They used local bands to fill in between nights with Moxy, Pat Travers, Mahogany Rush and scads of others.

So what do they pay in Vancouver? Calgary? The Peg?

Is is better in Quebec or the Maritimes?

We've been running Friday or Saturday night gigs for years, with the odd matinee. Does any town still offer 3 or (be still my beating heart!) SIX nighters?

With all that oil money is Alberta where all the bands should be going?

Let's find out!

:food-smiley-004:


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## Hamm Guitars

The $200 - $250 a night figure might be a little off. I don't know anyone that would work for less than $75.00 a night, and they won't be too happy with that. $600.00 per night is a pretty modest budget, and I would expect that at that price the venue would have an in house system.

Hamilton does not have any live music venues other than Copps, Hamilton Place and Theater Aquarius. There are allot of little pubs and whatnot in Hess village and so forth, but there is no bar scene whatsoever.

Bands should not be working for $200 a night. I know that there are some people out there that don't do it for the money - but when a band will play for $200 a night it makes it really hard to get $1200.00 a night out of the same club which is still pretty low for a full time touring band. I hear this complaint time and time again from people who make a living playing music.





Wild Bill said:


> We sorta had a thread about this before but I don't recall ever coming to a well-founded conclusion.
> 
> Here in Hamilton a band is lucky to get $200-$250 for a Friday or Saturday night. Some touring acts command a cover and get much more of course but my figure is about right for the typical bar band. Everybody seems to run either solo or at most 3 piece because of the poor money.
> 
> I remember the early 70's when a "C" level band like the one I worked for would get $2400 for a 6 nighter in Tillsonburg or St. Thomas. We had clubs like the El-Mar, Duffy's, Town Casino and others that paid great and were always packed. They used local bands to fill in between nights with Moxy, Pat Travers, Mahogany Rush and scads of others.
> 
> So what do they pay in Vancouver? Calgary? The Peg?
> 
> Is is better in Quebec or the Maritimes?
> 
> We've been running Friday or Saturday night gigs for years, with the odd matinee. Does any town still offer 3 or (be still my beating heart!) SIX nighters?
> 
> With all that oil money is Alberta where all the bands should be going?
> 
> Let's find out!
> 
> :food-smiley-004:


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## suttree

i lived and played in calgary for 7 years. as a mainly original act, we would get booked regularly enough for $400 for a quick night (read, pa's there, low hassle, dinner and a reasonable number of free drinks included). there were places we'd play for less on occasion, but we always let it be known that we were doing it as a favour, that we were not going to make a habit of it. now, toot my own horn, but we were pretty good. most cover bands in calgary that i know of make about $150 per member per night for a standard 4 piece with sound provided by the club (i am about 3 years out of date now, fyi), and the best ones make $2-400 per member. as a soundman in calgary, i wouldn't work for much less than $100 a night, and that was if i didn't have to carry much PA around. the only place i know of in alberta that still does a back 6 is the cecil, and i think it pays $1400? i never played there, had some buddies that did. you only played one short set m-w, two short on thursday, and full length fri and sat. 

i moved to ontario, and the scene here is hopelessly polluted. there's a friend of mine who plays in a local band, with a bit of a rep. i saw them at a local bar, and the place was so full you couldn't walk. must have been 300 people, if it was one. unreal. i asked him how much they got? $400. i just about slapped him. i don't play live around here because the pay is insulting. $250 for a four piece band? forget it, i'll sit in my living room. by the time we rent a (crappy) PA ($50), i get $50 to play for 3 hours, and do setup and tear down. out of this, take $10 in gas say (I drive a small car), and $15 in strings. wow. $25 for 3 hours work, and i still have to somehow buy thousands of dollars worth of gear, and re-tube my amp every year and get my guitars set up periodically... it's not worth it. what a shame, there's as a result no appreciable live music scene in this area. 

it's tough though.. the bar owners can get a good DJ for $150, and they'll be in tune, on time (probably), and can play at any volume from a whisper to a scream. the customers, who ultimately pay for this entertainment, have been taught to see music as a "lifestyle accessory", not something worth supporting. also, we've shot ourselves in the foot.. kids play for free or cheap, and the bar owners don't know the difference, and crappy bands will undercharge because they know they have to.

the only other place i know of where you're gonna do 4-6 days at a bar still is way up north in the oil towns. great pay, too. but there's some... erm.. "interesting" characters up there, you'll be afraid for your life sometimes. great times and pay though.. 

i lived in vancouver for 7 years as well. the scene there is pretty crappy too. although i guess the country bands make good money. too many hippies and punk rockers willing to play for almost nothing. i hosted an open stage there for a while, it payed poorly, but it was a hoot and i got a great meal and a bunch o drinks out of the deal.. wouldn't likely do it again though.


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## Hamm Guitars

We used to have cicuits - the A, B and C circuit. If you couldn't get into the C circuit rooms then you would play private parties, barn bashes or on a flatbed on someone's back 40. I've got no problem with bands playing these gigs for $200.00, but when guys have fought for years to get the pay rate up to something reasonable in a circuit and then are sudenly undercut by guys who are willing to play for nothing, there is a problem.

From my perspective, the entire music industry in Canada went to hell when the concept of in house production took hold. It quickly became the same show every week-end at any particular club. The first casualty was the light tech, once the light show was gone it was a downhill slide from there.

The "Save our Symphony' thing is actually quite funny. My guess is that they hired an event planner.



Paul said:


> This is an example of part of the problem:
> 
> http://brantford.kijiji.ca/c-commun...azz-Band-Available-for-hire-W0QQAdIdZ20727616
> 
> ...and here in Brantford we have several venues where local high-school bands get to play for free. They'll put 6 to 9 bands on the stage, charge a $5 to $10 cover, charge for food and drink, (usually an alcohol free show), and the bands get nothing. There are an infinite number of places that will pay nothing for live music.
> 
> 
> The Brantford Symphony Orchestra is holding a dinner/dance and silent auction to fund raise to "Save Our Symphony". They hired a DJ for the dance. Without a hint of irony, they have hired a friggin' DJ for a fundraiser to promote live music.


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## Milkman

I won't disclose how much I charge for a one night bar gig but I can assure you it's a lot more than $250. Bars will pay as little as they can.


$250 is ok for just me, but not for a whole band.


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## bobb

Hamm Guitars said:


> From my perspective, the entire music industry in Canada went to hell when the concept of in house production took hold. It quickly became the same show every week-end at any particular club. The first casualty was the light tech, once the light show was gone it was a downhill slide from there.


In Vancouver, the killing blow was the "Sports Bar". Bar owners realized that it was cheaper to drop $5,000 on a big screen TV than it was to pay a band that much every week. Patrons are easily retrained.


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## Geek

bobb said:


> In Vancouver, the killing blow was the "Sports Bar". Bar owners realized that it was cheaper to drop $5,000 on a big screen TV than it was to pay a band that much every week. Patrons are easily retrained.


You've noticed this too :frown:

Sometimes I think there's more appreciation for live music in the US city of Seattle than there is in our whole country


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## Milkman

Hamm Guitars said:


> From my perspective, the entire music industry in Canada went to hell when the concept of in house production took hold. It quickly became the same show every week-end at any particular club. The first casualty was the light tech, once the light show was gone it was a downhill slide from there.




I agree totally. The house system concept would be fine if it was done well but in most cases it starts off mediocre and as things wear out or break they are seldom repaired or replaced. You end up with crappy sound and lights, the same crappy lights every week all for the sake of convenience.


Additionally, because most bars are unwilling to pay for a band with proper production values, most bands walk in and just blow off the stage without mic'ing everything, without a soundman and without a light man.


I can tell you with no hesitation that although the calibre of players has probably improved over the past twenty years (it's called evolution) the calibre of BANDS and how they sound and look in bars, has gone into the toilette. The standards are MUCH lower now. There's the low end and the high end and not much in between.


I say to hell with the filthy lucre. I bring in production and use it or I don't play the gig. I do this whether the bar pays enough or not. With all due respect to those who choose a more cost feasable approach, if I get hit by a falling piano on the sidewalk tomorrow, I don't want the production of my last show to have been dictated by a cheap a$$ed bar owner who doesn't know the difference between a band and a jukebox.

I'm not saying this is the best approach. I'm just saying it's MY approach.


But even so, there's no way I'm playing for $250. I'd set up in a parking lot and play for donations to the Cancer Society before I'd give a show to a bar owner for that much.


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## Guest

Milkman, Hamm: you guys bring up something interesting here. Maybe I'm too young (and too brought up in Toronto) to know better. I got this feeling all the years of playing Toronto bars that the best bands used to bring their own PA, their own board, their own mics, their own lights and their own sound guy. What you were providing was a production for the bar, complete from end to end.

That definitely doesn't happen anymore.

When I was with The Apollo Effect we used to bring our own sound guy and that alone made our nights sound a heckuva lot better. Especially as he got to know our songs and would work the house-side effects to help out. It was always a fight with the bar when we showed up with our own guy to run the boards. They'd have paid some washed up hippie $50 for the night already and dammit, they were gonna get their $50 worth of sleeping on the console and groping the staff from him.

We were a pretty odd band in how we did things. How we insisted we have control over more of the production. In the end we paid for it dearly. We'd walk away with $1/head for the night. $2 if we were lucky. In a place like the Elmocambo upstairs or the Horseshoe, when it's packed, that's $200-$400 tops. No cut of the bar. We tried. Maybe if we didn't play all original music, weren't a risk, and did great covers we could have demanded more.

The first time we played Crowbar on Queen I had a long conversation with Scott, the owner, about the business before we set up and it went something like this: he had originally wanted Crowbar to be a covers bar. But then he hired a few great cover bands and found out they charge a few grand for the night and don't do any promotion. Then he found out that all original acts will work for a piece of the door and do their own promotion and you can put weird rules on them like they have to bring in 50 people or they owe the bar $200 bucks. And that all original acts will line up at your door to play your place for this kind of money.

We played the Crowbar at least three times in 2 years. Who's the sucker there?

But how do you break the vicious cycle? Bands want to play. Venues want to make money. It's so broken, especially in Toronto, I think the only solution is to let it all collapse and build it back up again. I quit about this time last year because I couldn't take it anymore. It was costing me more in gas to get to gigs than we were recouping. And bars gave us zero help put warm bodies in the room. Very, very frustrating.


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## hoser

depends on what kind of band you are and how you set up your shows. some bands play for the door, some get guaruntees. playing for the door is riskier, but can really pay off if you're in a popular band.

I agree that the standards have gone downhill. I hate playing dumps that only have a vocal PA with a mixer on the side of the stage and a couple of bare bulbs with red plastic over them for lights. it's insulting. right now there's only 2 clubs in town that have house techs.


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## Hamm Guitars

It's been since the early nineties that I've toured with a bar band. When we did tour, not only did the band change every week (at the end week-end), but so did the sound system and the light show. Some bands had better production than others, and some bands could get better results out of lesser systems. The difference was that there was an element of a show in the venue.

Now a days, the sound systems might be better quality and have more power, but it is the same setup every week at the local venue, with the same guy mixing front of house. There is usually little to no light show, and the sound man is also the light man. Your lucky if the gels get changed every couple of months. My advice to anyone that wants to put on any kind of a show now is to put all of your money into a real light show, with a real lighting tech - people hear with their eyes.

As for places that expect the band to do the promotion for their venue - that is totaly ridiculous. The only time the band or management is responsible for promotion is when they are putting on their own show and renting their own venue. It is the venue's responsibility to get people through the door, it is the entertainment's job to entertain them and make sure they have a good time. If I had to promote a gig, I would definately want whatever was made at the door and a percentage of the bar - all on top of the regular going rate. If you are promoting a show you are Management, and should be paid appropriately.

I would say that the solution to the problem is not to play at these places. I hear guys complain about agents all the time, because they take 10 to 15% of everything, but they would never put up with that sort of horsesh!t. Get a booking agent and stop booking direct, otherwise you will continue to fight these little battles forever.


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## Mooh

Disco, DJs, karaoke, big screen TVs, sports bars, dance videos, pay-to-play, and so on have all contributed to the demise of live music. When musicians started undercutting each other just to get gigs, those bottom feeding music employers didn't have to do much other than wait for bands to shoot themselves in the foot. 

It has been so long now since there was decent money on the local circuit that there are few, if any, of the old bands or musicians around, and even fewer of the old music employers that remember what decent money was, never mind that would be willing to return to those days.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Mooh

Oh, and might I add that collective organization solves some of these problems in many workplaces, but don't say UNION too loud...it's damned hard to keep a musicians union running, and harder still to enforce. Seems to be a nonentity around here.

Peace, Mooh.


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## ne1roc

Man, after reading all this, I am so lucky I gave up the dream of being a musician and got a great day job. At the same time, now I feel kinda guilty because my band pretty much will play for beer and chicken wings. 
For us its strictly about having fun so any cash is a bonus. That being said, on average we get $400.00 and bar tab for a gig. The worst we got was $250.00 plus tab.


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## Guest

Hamm Guitars said:


> As for places that expect the band to do the promotion for their venue - that is totaly ridiculous. The only time the band or management is responsible for promotion is when they are putting on their own show and renting their own venue. It is the venue's responsibility to get people through the door, it is the entertainment's job to entertain them and make sure they have a good time. If I had to promote a gig, I would definately want whatever was made at the door and a percentage of the bar - all on top of the regular going rate. If you are promoting a show you are Management, and should be paid appropriately.


You haven't played the Horseshoe in the last 10 years, eh? Arguably the top "indie" venue in Toronto. When they book you you're not allowed to play any other place in the GTA 2 weeks before or 2 weeks after. Fair enough. But their promotion is and will always be: you name in their box for your night in The Eye and Now, local rags where the weekly concert listings get done up. And your name on the marquee the night of the show.

If you want anything else. Radio, flyers, etc. You have to pay for it out of your own pocket.

Their argument when I complained the first time I booked The Apollo Effect into the venue was you play the 'Shoe it looks good on your little indie band resume. Take it or leave it.



> I would say that the solution to the problem is not to play at these places. I hear guys complain about agents all the time, because they take 10 to 15% of everything, but they would never put up with that sort of horsesh!t. Get a booking agent and stop booking direct, otherwise you will continue to fight these little battles forever.


The agent is a good idea. But, at least in Toronto, you've got the same problem: lots of fish need representation so agents pick and choose and you're basically screaming for attention in a room full of white noise. It's as hard as finding good venues to play.


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## Guest

Paul said:


> But as long as 3 or 4 guys are willing to literally play for chicken wings and beer........<sigh>


And there's the problem with a big city like Toronto. Not hard to find those 3-4 guys. Or a band comings wandering through town and doesn't know the Local's rates. It's a mess to enforce.


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## Milkman

Paul said:


> Go to Nashville....They'll have two bands on stages in opposite corners of the same room, trading sets all night long, with a bucket on the front of the stage for tips. Some of these bands have seriously talented players, but in Nashville, the pool is supersaturated, and if you won't play for tips, the next act will. And if you singer doesn't have implants, you won't get the tips. The next step down is pay-to-play. Most conversations I've had on this topic end up in the realization that the bigger the city, the worse the conditions. I know a great player in St. Thomas who won't drive to London for a gig, because the pay won't be enough. Go to Port Stanley..... and the $$$ double or triple. It's sometimes about being a big fish in a small pond. But in a lake....there are just too many big fish, and invasive non-native species too.
> 
> We're competing with DJ's, Karaoke and home entertainment. We're competing with YouPorn and YouTube. There are guys that would rather play 4 or 5 hours of Guitar Hero instead of helping discover the next guitar god.
> 
> And part of it is demographics. I'm in the last year of the baby boom (1966). The number of people currently in that 19-25 age group is much smaller than it was when I was drinking nightly. I don't go to much live music any more. I don't like the hours, and as Milkman pointed out, the quality of band just ain't there anymore. (and I play in 3 of them!!!!)
> 
> We have to find new places to play. Guys that were playing 50's rock and roll in the 60's and 70's are discovering that the audience they had 40 years ago is now living in retirement homes. So you set yourself up as a "power single" with good backing tracks and you play 4 or 5 afternoons/week on the old age home circuit. The folks that have money now are willing to spend it on quality entertainment. Milkman's new project has a great chance of success. He's got the talent necessary, and his partner has the community contacts to get the show in front of people that can pay. The question is _will_ they pay? Then again, the Niagara Falls Pink Floyd show apparently did not sell as well as hoped. A great show by all accounts, but for whatever reason, didn't go supernova.



Here's my take on Nashville.


There's a lot of music happening all the time, and about 75% of it is utter crap. I've seen shows on Nashville TV stations that were as bad as the worst open mic jam sessions up here.

People will go there and play for nothing because it's NashVegas.

I like Nashville because it's a beautiful city with friendly people, but if I want to see good music I'll go to New Orleans, Chicago, or yes, Toronto.

I go there about once a month for business.


Personally I'm into quality, not quantity.


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## Milkman

Hamm Guitars said:


> It's been since the early nineties that I've toured with a bar band. When we did tour, not only did the band change every week (at the end week-end), but so did the sound system and the light show. Some bands had better production than others, and some bands could get better results out of lesser systems. The difference was that there was an element of a show in the venue.
> 
> Now a days, the sound systems might be better quality and have more power, but it is the same setup every week at the local venue, with the same guy mixing front of house. There is usually little to no light show, and the sound man is also the light man. Your lucky if the gels get changed every couple of months. My advice to anyone that wants to put on any kind of a show now is to put all of your money into a real light show, with a real lighting tech - people hear with their eyes.
> 
> As for places that expect the band to do the promotion for their venue - that is totaly ridiculous. The only time the band or management is responsible for promotion is when they are putting on their own show and renting their own venue. It is the venue's responsibility to get people through the door, it is the entertainment's job to entertain them and make sure they have a good time. If I had to promote a gig, I would definately want whatever was made at the door and a percentage of the bar - all on top of the regular going rate. If you are promoting a show you are Management, and should be paid appropriately.
> 
> I would say that the solution to the problem is not to play at these places. I hear guys complain about agents all the time, because they take 10 to 15% of everything, but they would never put up with that sort of horsesh!t. Get a booking agent and stop booking direct, otherwise you will continue to fight these little battles forever.



While I agree with your statements, lots of luck getting agents interested in booking a part time band. They ignore us like it's a sport, in spite of our sucess on our own. They're all interested in the big cash cpmmissions they get booking casinos and the like.


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## Warren

Mooh said:


> Oh, and might I add that collective organization solves some of these problems in many workplaces, but don't say UNION too loud...it's damned hard to keep a musicians union running, and harder still to enforce. Seems to be a nonentity around here.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


I don't see how a union could possibly help when you're not only competing against other musicians. Bars can easily subvert a musician's union because they have so many substitute products, THEY DON"T HAVE TO HIRE MUSICIANS. And, you're a secondary item for a bar, they're in business to sell alcohol, not music.



Mooh said:


> Disco, DJs, karaoke, big screen TVs, sports bars, dance videos, pay-to-play, and so on have all contributed to the demise of live music. When musicians started undercutting each other just to get gigs, those bottom feeding music employers didn't have to do much other than wait for bands to shoot themselves in the foot.
> 
> It has been so long now since there was decent money on the local circuit that there are few, if any, of the old bands or musicians around, and even fewer of the old music employers that remember what decent money was, never mind that would be willing to return to those days.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


I don't see how the traditional bar band can avoid the inevitable, it's product life cycle was in it's downfall 15 years ago with substitute products like DJ's & TV's, it saw competition 30 years ago with DJ's during the Disco era, it's into the geriatric stage now and we're still trying to flog it, and the only way is by price. 

The collective organization, potentially, should be a business, you have to re-define the product or create a new one. Get a bunch of bands/entertainers together, figure out who your audience is and create a product that they want (don't throw a dart), including venue, event type, etc... that you can afford, and don't just settle for rehashing something that's seen it's day . If it works, all of a sudden you're at the top of the food chain not the bottom, if it doesn't you had a good time and try something different.

Not looking to argue, just thought I'd offer a different perspective.


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## Milkman

Warren said:


> I don't see how a union could possibly help when you're not only competing against other musicians. Bars can easily subvert a musician's union because they have so many substitute products, THEY DON"T HAVE TO HIRE MUSICIANS. And, you're a secondary item for a bar, they're in business to sell alcohol, not music.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see how the traditional bar band can avoid the inevitable, it's product life cycle was in it's downfall 15 years ago with substitute products like DJ's & TV's, it saw competition 30 years ago with DJ's during the Disco era, it's into the geriatric stage now and we're still trying to flog it, and the only way is by price.
> 
> The collective organization, potentially, should be a business, you have to re-define the product or create a new one. Get a bunch of bands/entertainers together, figure out who your audience is and create a product that they want (don't throw a dart), including venue, event type, etc... that you can afford, and don't just settle for rehashing something that's seen it's day . If it works, all of a sudden you're at the top of the food chain not the bottom, if it doesn't you had a good time and try something different.
> 
> Not looking to argue, just thought I'd offer a different perspective.


Very sound logic, and I'm working on projects to do just what you suggest.

No sense crying about the fall of bar gigs. After all, if the audiences really gave a rats a$$ they would have let the bar owners know clearly that DJs and karaoke were NOT an acceptable alternative to a live band.

Why should a bar owner pay $700 ~ $1000 a night to fill the same seats as a Karaoke rig or DJ does fror less than half of that?


I say F^&k em. I'll play the bars that pay and that are enjoyable to play. Beyond that, it's ticketed events, corporate gigs, bashes, theatres and whatever else I can find that feels right.


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## Robboman

> We sorta had a thread about this before but I don't recall ever coming to a well-founded conclusion.


 This one won't either! But it's good discussion. 



> Here in Hamilton a band is lucky to get $200-$250 for a Friday or Saturday night.


 It's hard to generalize because it varies so much depending on the band and the venue. But, if I were to generalize, I'd say gigging pays more in Calgary. 



> Everybody seems to run either solo or at most 3 piece because of the poor money.


 Lots of that in Calgary too. My band gets paid OK only because we're just 3 guys running our own production. Musically, I would love to be a 5 pc with a dedicated soundman, but there is NO chance we could find regular gigs charging twice what we do now. Then again, if you're HAPPY with $100 a night per/man weekends only, you could run a 5 or 6 pc band pretty easy around here. 



> We've been running Friday or Saturday night gigs for years, with the odd matinee. Does any town still offer 3 or (be still my beating heart!) SIX nighters?


 The vast majority of live rooms in Calgary are fri/sat only, a few try to do only ONE of those two nights. There are a few back-three rooms left, but not many. 6-nighters are very rare.. I can only think of two (besides the aforementioned Cecil), and they're both honkytonk cowboy bars. If you have a GOOD 5-pc country-rock cover band you can still tour full time around western Canada and make a (meagre) living this way. Doesn't seem to be the case for any other genre, though. We used to have a great old, smoky blues hotel (the Eddy) that ran 6 nights of touring blues acts every week, but it's been gone for a few years now. 



> With all that oil money is Alberta where all the bands should be going?


 NO! We don't need the competition! :banana:


:food-smiley-004:


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## Robboman

Milkman said:


> I say F^&k em. I'll play the bars that pay and that are enjoyable to play. Beyond that, it's ticketed events, corporate gigs, bashes, theatres and whatever else I can find that feels right.


Absolutely, and my thoughts exactly. 

Of course, it's tough to maintain this attitude if you are out there trying to make your sole living from gigs. Apparently that was commonplace up until the 70's, but the world has changed.


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## david henman

...i'm happy to make three bills, especially as there are only three of us. 

that said, we generally make $350-$450.

if i want to make more money than this, it is up to me to build a "brand" that people will pay to see and hear.

i'm working on that.

we play only originals and, at most, i can expect to draw only 5-10 people per show, in addition to the regulars.

i have roughly half a dozen venues that book me regularly. i'm trying to add more, but i have a tough time getting motivated to be my own agent.

-dh


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## Guest

"and whatever else I can find that feels right"
That's worth way more any any amount of $$ any day of the week!

I've played freebies that have felt WAY better than high-paying gigs.... 

Ol' Miss Virgy had it right


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## david henman

ClintonHammond said:


> "and whatever else I can find that feels right"
> That's worth way more any any amount of $$ any day of the week!
> 
> I've played freebies that have felt WAY better than high-paying gigs....
> 
> Ol' Miss Virgy had it right




...i have no problem playing for free. i do, however, feel an obligation to compensate my band members.

that said, every gig i play is for free. i collect the money to cover the pain of lugging all that gear around!!!!!

-dh


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## Wild Bill

Robboman said:


> T
> 
> The vast majority of live rooms in Calgary are fri/sat only, a few try to do only ONE of those two nights. There are a few back-three rooms left, but not many. 6-nighters are very rare.. I can only think of two (besides the aforementioned Cecil), and they're both honkytonk cowboy bars. If you have a GOOD 5-pc country-rock cover band you can still tour full time around western Canada and make a (meagre) living this way. Doesn't seem to be the case for any other genre, though. We used to have a great old, smoky blues hotel (the Eddy) that ran 6 nights of touring blues acts every week, but it's been gone for a few years now.
> 
> :food-smiley-004:


Didn't expect so much response so quickly! Let me throw something else in to muddle the issue!:smile:

One of my customers plays in a country band. He's booked solid with not just one nighters but 2, 3 and even 5! And they get 2-3 times the money that the other bands get!

I asked him why and he explained it this way. He thinks it's because rock and roll today has bailed on the dancers! He sees LOTS of young chicks in the crowd and lots of guys chasing them! They pack the dance floor.

That got me to thinking about what I see at a lot of clubs around here. Often there's no dance floor at all. The owner doesn't want to lose a couple of tables and maybe some chicken wing dinners. I started watching the crowd and indeed I often would see some young girl's foot tapping but with nowhere to dance she just got frustrated. 

Sets are longer too! We used to play 30-35 minute sets, with a break till the start of the next hour. This meant that there was a shorter time before the crowd could sit down and talk to each other.

Some owners actually demand 90 minute sets!

I think what's happened is two things. One is Journey! After that band everybody thought they were supposed to put on a concert show in even a small club. In the 70's and early 80's the band was part of the party, a la Kim Mitchell. Journey changed all that.

The other is that we had a big recession in the early 90's and a lot of clubs closed. New owners came from guys who had lost their job at a factory and thought they could run a club. The experience chain that had been built from decades of bar entertainment had been broken and the new owners didn't know what they were doing. Their only concept of live music came from video footage of concerts. They ran their clubs like an old fashioned family farm, where you grew all sorts of different crops hoping you'd make enough money from something to get by. Clubs became a combination drinking hole, restaurant, pool hall and I dunno - hair salon or something equally goofy.

The business model of a club had been established for eons. Folks went there to drink, dance, pick each other up and sneak out into the bushes afterwards! The band was there to promote the beer sales. Dancers sweat and need to replenish their electrolytes. Clubs were NOT a concert venue for bands to show off their originals. You could play originals as long as the people kept dancing and drinking, which usually meant you needed at least some if not mostly covers. It was "I am a wild party!" and "You pay for the cab and I'll pay for the bar tab, baby!"

Country bars ALWAYS have dance floors! And they ALWAYS play dancin' type music!

I've seen chicks get frustrated at not being able to dance and waiting too long for a chance to get talked up! They often leave after only one set, sometimes dragging a boyfriend along, if he's lucky. Maybe she's taking him to a country bar!

The only dancing I see around here in rock clubs is slam dancing! Since the chicks tend not to participate you don't see much rustling in the bushes afterwards.

I could just be another old guy who can't relate but a quick sampling of the local indie rock stations suggests that the material is not really a dance beat. At least, not like we knew in the late 60's, 70's and early 80's. It seemed to end with Loverboy and 38 Special.

Could the country guys be on to something? Has rock and roll abandoned an important marketing factor for clubs?

Maybe this should be a new thread or maybe its just an associated factor.

:food-smiley-004:


----------



## david henman

...i think rock and roll has gotten real old, real fast, bill.

i get a _strong_ sense that bar audiences have finally reached the absolute saturation point with tired rockers playing tired rock songs. 

it had to happen eventually, don't you think?

i think it also (partly) explains why, for the first time in my forty-five year career, i am having no difficulty whatsoever booking myband as a 100% original act.

that said, i feel the pressure to write more and more danceable tunes, which coincides nicely with my passion for latin rhythms. my rowdy celtic workouts seem to get them going, as well.

the success of country music does not suprise me. it is both mainstream accessible, and highly danceable.

i think, if it was neccessary for me to go back to playing covers, i would switch to country.

-dh




Wild Bill said:


> Didn't expect so much response so quickly! Let me throw something else in to muddle the issue!:smile:
> 
> One of my customers plays in a country band. He's booked solid with not just one nighters but 2, 3 and even 5! And they get 2-3 times the money that the other bands get!
> 
> I asked him why and he explained it this way. He thinks it's because rock and roll today has bailed on the dancers! He sees LOTS of young chicks in the crowd and lots of guys chasing them! They pack the dance floor.
> 
> That got me to thinking about what I see at a lot of clubs around here. Often there's no dance floor at all. The owner doesn't want to lose a couple of tables and maybe some chicken wing dinners. I started watching the crowd and indeed I often would see some young girl's foot tapping but with nowhere to dance she just got frustrated.
> 
> Sets are longer too! We used to play 30-35 minute sets, with a break till the start of the next hour. This meant that there was a shorter time before the crowd could sit down and talk to each other.
> 
> Some owners actually demand 90 minute sets!
> 
> I think what's happened is two things. One is Journey! After that band everybody thought they were supposed to put on a concert show in even a small club. In the 70's and early 80's the band was part of the party, a la Kim Mitchell. Journey changed all that.
> 
> The other is that we had a big recession in the early 90's and a lot of clubs closed. New owners came from guys who had lost their job at a factory and thought they could run a club. The experience chain that had been built from decades of bar entertainment had been broken and the new owners didn't know what they were doing. Their only concept of live music came from video footage of concerts. They ran their clubs like an old fashioned family farm, where you grew all sorts of different crops hoping you'd make enough money from something to get by. Clubs became a combination drinking hole, restaurant, pool hall and I dunno - hair salon or something equally goofy.
> 
> The business model of a club had been established for eons. Folks went there to drink, dance, pick each other up and sneak out into the bushes afterwards! The band was there to promote the beer sales. Dancers sweat and need to replenish their electrolytes. Clubs were NOT a concert venue for bands to show off their originals. You could play originals as long as the people kept dancing and drinking, which usually meant you needed at least some if not mostly covers. It was "I am a wild party!" and "You pay for the cab and I'll pay for the bar tab, baby!"
> 
> Country bars ALWAYS have dance floors! And they ALWAYS play dancin' type music!
> 
> I've seen chicks get frustrated at not being able to dance and waiting too long for a chance to get talked up! They often leave after only one set, sometimes dragging a boyfriend along, if he's lucky. Maybe she's taking him to a country bar!
> 
> The only dancing I see around here in rock clubs is slam dancing! Since the chicks tend not to participate you don't see much rustling in the bushes afterwards.
> 
> I could just be another old guy who can't relate but a quick sampling of the local indie rock stations suggests that the material is not really a dance beat. At least, not like we knew in the late 60's, 70's and early 80's. It seemed to end with Loverboy and 38 Special.
> 
> Could the country guys be on to something? Has rock and roll abandoned an important marketing factor for clubs?
> 
> Maybe this should be a new thread or maybe its just an associated factor.
> 
> :food-smiley-004:


----------



## Guest

Wild Bill said:


> He thinks it's because rock and roll today has bailed on the dancers! He sees LOTS of young chicks in the crowd and lots of guys chasing them! They pack the dance floor.


Bill, I think you've hit on a major reason here man. I couldn't agree more. I know my dad waxes nostalgic about dancing to rock bands when he was a teenager in beyond. And definitely rock bar crowds these days do not dance. With TAE we tried really hard to write some songs that would get butts out of their seats but it was definitely hard. It's a passive audience who's gotten used to spectator-grade music. 

_* The exception to this might be the harder forms of rock. I've been to bar shows where the crowd was moving, but you had to watch out or you'd loose a few teeth._


----------



## Milkman

david henman said:


> ...i think rock and roll has gotten real old, real fast, bill.
> 
> i get a _strong_ sense that bar audiences have finally reached the absolute saturation point with tired rockers playing tired rock songs.
> 
> it had to happen eventually, don't you think?
> 
> 
> 
> i think, if it was neccessary for me to go back to playing covers, i would switch to country.
> 
> -dh



I agree that there are tired rockers who should probably find something else to do.

I strongly disagree that there is anything tired about classic songs played with passion and love for the music. When that happens, music as we know it has died.

If I had to switch to country, or at least what passes for country these days, I'd probably pack it in, but that's just me.


What HAS happened in my opinion, is that our audience demographic has grown tired of sitting in bars. It's time to upgrade our venues to suit our audience IMO.


----------



## Guest

" I strongly disagree that there is anything tired about classic songs"
If I ever hear "Smoke On The Water" ever again it will be too soon... 

Too many of what some people want to call 'classic' songs aren't... They're just old pop crap

"at least what passes for country these days"
There's a TON of great country around these days....


----------



## Warren

Wild Bill said:


> Didn't expect so much response so quickly! Let me throw something else in to muddle the issue!:smile:
> ......
> Maybe this should be a new thread or maybe its just an associated factor.
> 
> :food-smiley-004:


Not muddle for me. Girls get guys to bars like kids to get their parents to McDonalds. Guys drink, the bar makes more money, is willing to pay the band more. If you can prove to the bar owner that you know how to make him more money than anyone or thing else, you win.

On the other issue, maybe the new thread, is it me or does country better approximate dance-able rock like the Allman Bros., Leonard Skynard, ZZ Top etc. and dance-able blues (swings & shuffles), than most post 1990 rock? 

And, maybe the contemporary rock band/bar culture is just a bad fit. Really, I love Dream Theater, Allan Holdsworth, Rush and a huge number of other technically great bands but they're made to stand & watch, I don't really participate. But, when a band can swing, my toe taps, my wife wants to dance, we have a great time, get a little drunk, etc..., participate & party. 

Maybe these 2 different things are not interchangeable within the context of a bar type venue and that's why the life cycle only lasted from Hendrix to Journey, a couple decades. Dance rhythm based music associated to partying has been around for centuries.

Thanks for that Wild Bill


----------



## Guest

"all it will mean is that "classic rock" has died"
The whole point of the Jetro Tull album "Too Old To Rock & Roll: Too Young To Die" is that nothing ever actually dies.... Fads come and go.... "fashions" ebb and flow... There's ups... there's downs... 

But hell, that's showbiz...


----------



## ne1roc

I think there has been a resurgence in guitar based rock music. Go to any guitar store and they'll tell you they are selling more guitars and gear then ever. 
I see kids walking home everyday with a guitar strapped to there back. Its great to see all these young kids with the Hendrix and Zepplin shirts and long hair. 
Its a new cycle and hopefully these kids will keep the flame burning and bring on a new tradition of going to bars to watch a band.


----------



## Mahogany Martin

I've met a lot of musicians over the years who became working men for their weekend gigs. They grew tired of rehearsals and lugging stuff around and settled in just showing up at the gig, having a few beers, socializing and getting some money at the end of the night.

Most of the songs were what everybody knew with a count in, the song itself and eventually a visual queue to end with a typical ending. Then on to the next song and so on. I've always been like Milkman's school of thoughts where a band should provide a decent and interesting production. "Working bands" (like country bands) tend to stay away from good productions and truthfully, they get boring soon (unless you're horny and looking for a "piece of meat").

But they will draw in the girls which in turn draw in the boys and before you know it, the place is really hopping. But you can still provide this dancing element and draw in the crowd if, in addition to the good sound, lights etc, you spend a bit of time on you setlist.


----------



## Milkman

jroberts said:


> When that happens, all it will mean is that "classic rock" has died. I don't think it's dead yet, but it's not feeling quite as perky as it used to.
> 
> It seems that, if you want to go the classic rock route, "tribute bands" are where its at these days. A really good tribute band can make a ton of cash. Tribute bands used to be considered jokes, but these days the better ones are selling out large auditoriums several nights in a row in larger cities. A good tribute band offers so much more than a bunch of Led Zepplin, Pink Floyd, Bob Seger and BTO covers, though. They offer escapism. For a couple of hours someone can actually be back in 1965 watching the Beatles on stage. The experience is more akin to musical theatre than to hanging out at a bar. The classic rock bar scene is definitely doomed in the long run. It's only a matter of time.
> 
> The times, they are a changin'.



The classic rock bar scene is indeed in decline, but again I strongly believe that this is because the audience that grew up with this music is no longer into the bar scene.

I myself would much prefer to sit in a nice theatre or auditorium and see a well produced show than sit in a bar with crappy sound and lights hearing the same songs.
The baby boomers and subesquent generation are my age.

I think tribute bands to a large extent have a finite shelf life. I have declined several offers from Tribute acts including a couple of very big Pink Floyd acts, because I think I would go squirrely playing the same artist's songs all night every night.

I do applaud their level of production though. I think people I'm talking about want a show, not just a bunch of guys playing songs.

We'll see.


----------



## RIFF WRATH

I think 3 big elements have been missed (but discussed this thread or elsewhere) the number of people going to the venues has declined

1) no smoking allowed.
2) no drinking and driving
3) Mortgages, kids at home (age)

What I do notice , as mentioned previously:

1) danceable country is booming (singles of all ages)
2) local venue rental and licencing, put 2+ bands on the bill, some $ to charity, some $ to advertising, split the gate and make sure 1 person tells another and so on (networking, hype)
3) outside gigs (subject to the weather) 

just my localized observations. (I do not live in an urban center)
cheers
RIFF


----------



## Mooh

Riff...Quite right, good point. It seems that private parties are gaining popularuty as the way for folks to drink, smoke, and babysit (oops, parent) at the same time, at least in rural or small town areas. Lots of farm parties hereabouts.

Fwiw, smoking kept me from playing in bars very much after my early 20s, as I couldn't handle the effects any more (I've never personally smoked). I missed some otherwise killer gigs because of it.

Peace, Mooh.


----------



## Wild Bill

Milkman said:


> The classic rock bar scene is indeed in decline, but again I strongly believe that this is because the audience that grew up with this music is no longer into the bar scene.
> 
> I myself would much prefer to sit in a nice theatre or auditorium and see a well produced show than sit in a bar with crappy sound and lights hearing the same songs.
> The baby boomers and subesquent generation are my age.


No longer into the scene? I agree, but I'm not sure if it was the chicken or the egg. I've heard many fellow boomers comment that they went to a bar for the first time in years and found changes not to their taste. As mentioned, crap bands/show, no dance floor and "classic rock" bands that don't actually play much of the music they actually listened to way back then.

This is circular and doesn't tell us much about boomers being an untapped market. Boomers aren't coming to bars because bars don't cater to their tastes. Would they come out if things WERE to their tastes? How can we tell if no one seems to try it?

As for sitting "in a nice theatre or auditorium", that's a concert! If someone wants a concert then they can go to a concert. It's a different scene entirely. Concerts are for the music and music show only. That's not always why we go to see a band.

As I said, the bar scene is different. Or at least it used to be. It's a party. A social mixer where the band's job is not just to promote themselves but to help everybody have a good time and buy a lot of beer! It works best if the audience has the maximum amount of fun and makes the owner happy when he counts his till. 

How many concerts provide beer and a dance floor? How many concerts have short sets where you know in just a little while you can chat each other up?

That's the scene boomers grew up with and that's the scene they expect today. Hell, many of us are on our 2nd or 3rd marriage and may be trying for another one!:smile:

And one thing about boomers: if it's not their style they tend to refuse to go. Or shell out their money. They've never been good at being told what they should like. It's their kids who grew up on hundred dollar Nikes and Gap jeans.

I may not drink as many beer in a night as I used to but I'd still like the chance to quaff a few in good company, with a band that's playing what I like. Am I the only one? Are there enough others to make it worth a barkeep's investment?

Frankly, I don't know. I DO know that I don't bother much with the bar scene today! 

:food-smiley-004:


----------



## david henman

Milkman said:


> I strongly disagree that there is anything tired about classic songs played with passion and love for the music. When that happens, music as we know it has died.



...the problem is that they are playing classic songs, but _not_ out of passion and love for the music. too many old men bands are playing these songs, which ARE _tired_ and have been _tired_ for nearly half a century, for no other reason than the misconception that people will automatically head for the dance floor the moment they hear the opening riff for mustangsallysomekindawonderfuloldtimerockandrollbrowneyedgirlsweethomealabama...

for years, of course, this worked. practically any assemblage of hackers and weekend hobbyists could throw a band together, rehearse at the kitchen table with only a case of 2-4 and a pen and paper to write down the keys of the tunes, and bob's yer uncle.

for better or worse, that's not enough anymore.

-dh


----------



## Beatles

I certainly can't disagree with a lot of the observations here. Quite sobering actually, but I'd like to add maybe something another point of view. I do agree that it is tough to get decent money for a gig, and I think that has been confirmed from the posts that I have have read here. 

I think that one of the, and I wouldn't necessarily call it a problem but more of an observation, is the fact that bands may not stick together long enough to get anywhere. Starting a band from scratch takes a lot of effort, time and commitment on everyones part to get to the point where you can gig. Then you have to deal with band member issues, people leaving and having to be replaced and all the rest. When your band is ready to gig, you may have to take a few low paying gigs(or free) just to get your stage sound and iron out all the bugs. This does set a precident with the club owners, and makes it harder for the next guy to get booked. I've heard so many times that "I only had paid so and so" and they filled the place. 

But I guess what I am really trying to say is that in order to be successful, if you are going to be playing only for the money, is that a band has to have longevity in order to create a following and get the people out to see you. One of the bands I was in is still together after 10 years. I was with them for the first 4 years, but had to bow out as I couldn't meet the time commitments as it was becomming a weekly weekly thing. The reason for their success, is that they have something that is unique, and they are good at what they do. It's not unusual to do the odd charitable event for free, as the people that organize these events,and the people they attract, are ususally the people that have money, and are well connected to the corporate scene. Sometimes you have to spend money (play for free) to make money. Just my 2 cents.


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## Guest

"it's not the 70's anymore"
Thank FK for that!


----------



## Chito

> Originally Posted by RIFF WRATH
> 1) no smoking allowed.
> 2) no drinking and driving
> 3) Mortgages, kids at home (age)


Just to add:

4) Monstrous Home Theater Systems


----------



## david henman

Beatles said:


> I think that one of the, and I wouldn't necessarily call it a problem but more of an observation, is the fact that bands may not stick together long enough to get anywhere. Starting a band from scratch takes a lot of effort, time and commitment on everyones part to get to the point where you can gig. Then you have to deal with band member issues, people leaving and having to be replaced and all the rest.



...it was upon coming to this conclusion myself that i finally formed my own band, realizing that i would never again have to worry about the band breaking up and being forced to start all over, from scratch, for the umpteenth time.

btw, gary, the band is back at the wheat king on october 26th - hope you can make it out!

-dh


----------



## Beatles

david henman said:


> btw, gary, the band is back at the wheat king on october 26th - hope you can make it out!
> 
> -dh


For sure David.....It's been a while hasn't it?


----------



## Warren

RIFF WRATH said:


> I think 3 big elements have been missed (but discussed this thread or elsewhere) the number of people going to the venues has declined
> 
> 1) no smoking allowed.
> 2) no drinking and driving
> 3) Mortgages, kids at home (age)


Really? or have the numbers declined not because of environment but because these venues fail to provide a product (including the band/environment) that people want to pay for. I'm 42, I smoke, and have 2 kids, but, when a band like LMT or Paul James is booked at the Club, there's a dance floor, and I know the crowd will be into it (always), my wife & I get a sitter, take a cab downtown & have a good time. The problem is that these types of bands are few & far between.



RIFF WRATH said:


> What I do notice , as mentioned previously:
> 
> 1) danceable country is booming (singles of all ages)
> 2) local venue rental and licencing, put 2+ bands on the bill, some $ to charity, some $ to advertising, split the gate and make sure 1 person tells another and so on (networking, hype)
> 3) outside gigs (subject to the weather)
> 
> just my localized observations. (I do not live in an urban center)
> cheers
> RIFF


I think like Milkman, david henman, Wild Bill, Beatles and what you're touching on here is more correct. If the product is what I'm into, I don't mind altogether paying $200-$300 for a night out once a month and a lot of my friends don't either. But if you want me there you have to remember that I'm the customer. 

I think that maybe musicians are forgetting that there's a big difference between art and business. 

If you're an artist you don't care about money or you have alternative sources and you want to convey to me something about yourself through your art. I'm sure Leo Brouwer didn't expect to retire on the procedes of Elogy to the Dance. Brouwer is just lucky that people discovered him while he is still alive.

If you want to make money, you're a business and you should be strategic, in that you define your customer, tailor your product to suit his needs and give him real value for his money. And, if the other businesses (venues) you rely on to provide your service to the customer don't have the same business philosophy as you do, you should find some new venues that do. Because if you don't give me the customer what I want, why should I spend my $ on you?


----------



## david henman

Warren said:


> I don't mind altogether paying $200-$300 for a night out once a month and a lot of my friends don't either.



...wow! you and your friends are welcome at my gigs anytime!

hopefully, we're related.....:smile:

-dh


----------



## Beatles

Warren said:


> If you want to make money, you're a business and you should be strategic, in that you define your customer, tailor your product to suit his needs and give him real value for his money. And, if the other businesses (venues) you rely on to provide your service to the customer don't have the same business philosophy as you do, you should find some new venues that do. Because if you don't give me the customer what I want, why should I spend my $ on you?


Well said, couldn't agree with you more.


----------



## Hamm Guitars

The only bars that I work in that seem to make any money are the ones that have a good band that plays Top 40/Rock and a DJ that plays Rave/Rap/Hip-Hop/Dance music. Most of the dance crowd drinks when the band is on and most of the band crowd drinks when the DJ is playing. The crowd is young, with the average age falling around 24 years old (19~30).

As for Baby boomers, they are getting pretty old. Anyone that was born in the '40's is now in their 60's, not their 40's. These people don't go to bars all that often, and if they do it is usually a restraunt type place. For the most part they are married and they are looking forward to retirement and no longer have a mortgage and they do have a budget for entertainment.

They like to be entertained, and they don't mind paying to see a decent show. Keep in mind that these people were in their prime in the '70's. Contrary to current popular belief, popular music in the '70's wasn't all about Led Zeppelin and Jimi Hendrix, it was more about disco and cheezy bands like the Bay City Rollers. "Classic Rock" fans still exist from that era, but they are not likely to be interested in any sort of loud concert like rock show - at least not on a large scale that would warrant marketing one to that age group. 

The age group of Classic Rock fans (to my knowledge, and we are talking about the bulk of the group, not the acceptions to the rule) are between about 32 and 48. They are heavily mortgaged, heavily taxed and burdened by kids that are either getting ready for, just went through or are still in college/university. They buy things that they shouldn't and most of them have credit card an other debts that total more than their net worth. They are in their earning years, but are still haven't paid for the things that they bought durring the past ten years. They are stressed out, some are going through a divorce/change of life and usually don't have a budget for entertainment, allthough they will blow off some steam every now and then. In short, this is a really bad group of people to market to right now as they have allot of things on their plate and entertainment is not their highest priority. They are more likely to invest in things like home entertainment systems or luxury cars as forms of entertainment (things that they can make monthly payments on).

This is my view of the current demographic of the pop/rock music business. If it's money your after (and that is what drives the music business) you'll find it in the pockets of the baby boomers. If it's a party your after, stick with the bars and under 30 crowd. Otherwise a U2, Police, Tragically Hip or other cover band might pay the bills if you have a girlfriend with a good job.


----------



## Warren

david henman said:


> ...wow! you and your friends are welcome at my gigs anytime!
> 
> hopefully, we're related.....:smile:
> 
> -dh


Let's see, $20 cab, $40-$80 alcohol, $20-$30 munchies, $40-$60 sitter, $20-$40 cover, pretty close to $200 and that's bare bones (no dinner), for both of us. I don't think you can take your wife out for much less unless your doin' pizza and a movie. A mid-range restaurant for dinner with a bottle of wine for 2 is usually around $100.00 and you're only there for 1-2 hours, no cab, no sitter, we'd be at the bar for 3-4.

I'll let you know the next time I'm in Toronto.


----------



## Warren

Hamm Guitars said:


> The age group of Classic Rock fans (to my knowledge, and we are talking about the bulk of the group, not the acceptions to the rule) are between about 32 and 48. They are heavily mortgaged, heavily taxed and burdened by kids that are either getting ready for, just went through or are still in college/university. They buy things that they shouldn't and most of them have credit card an other debts that total more than their net worth. They are in their earning years, but are still haven't paid for the things that they bought durring the past ten years. They are stressed out, some are going through a divorce/change of life and usually don't have a budget for entertainment, allthough they will blow off some steam every now and then. In short, this is a really bad group of people to market to right now as they have allot of things on their plate and entertainment is not their highest priority. They are more likely to invest in things like home entertainment systems or luxury cars as forms of entertainment (things that they can make monthly payments on).


That's me and a whole bunch of people I went to University with, except for the divorce thing (all of us lucky so far) or the expensive cars and home entertainment system (our kids would demolish it so $30 DVD player & a cheap TV, & nice but used vehicle), but we still like to blow off steam so a night of fun with spouses & friends is still high on our priority list, just not every week. But, like I said I won't spend my $ on a loud shoe gazing band in a bar with flies falling off the ceiling, I'm not going out to make a mess of myself. Give me a party, toe tap, dance, beer, nice environment, good food, good musicians make me forget about what I am (described above) and make me, my wife and everyone I'm with happy, unstressed, feeling good etc.. for a couple hours. So, it's not necessarily the genre of music, it's the package.

32- 48, kids aren't even close to University yet. That's more like 45-60.


----------



## Guest

"burdened by kids"
Only if you allowed yourself to become so burdened.....


----------



## Hamm Guitars

Hey Warren,

I'm in the same boat you are - I'm right smack in the middle of this group. I guess I should have been a little clearer. I didn't mean that everone in that age group was into classic rock, what I was trying to say is that the majority of people into classic rock are in that age group.

If I get friendly with the neighbors that are in my age group, they generally want to stay home drink beer and play poker. I've offered a few of them free tickets to shows and it usually doesn't peek their interest all that much.

Andy



Warren said:


> That's me and a whole bunch of people I went to University with, except for the divorce thing (all of us lucky so far) or the expensive cars and home entertainment system (our kids would demolish it so $30 DVD player & a cheap TV, & nice but used vehicle), but we still like to blow off steam so a night of fun with spouses & friends is still high on our priority list, just not every week. But, like I said I won't spend my $ on a loud shoe gazing band in a bar with flies falling off the ceiling, I'm not going out to make a mess of myself. Give me a party, toe tap, dance, beer, nice environment, good food, good musicians make me forget about what I am (described above) and make me, my wife and everyone I'm with happy, unstressed, feeling good etc.. for a couple hours. So, it's not necessarily the genre of music, it's the package.


----------



## Beatles

Just another observation...

It's sounding like there's a beef about bands not getting paid enough from the bars. And there seems to be another issue here about classic rock. And then another about the aging demographics. I have no disagreement with any of these views.

However, if there is (from what I am reading) problems getting fair compensation from bar owners, classic rock acts not being supportabe, and the aging population having less interest in attending these types of venues, well maybe a different approach should be considered by some bands. There are several other venues that can be worthwhile, if it is a question of making some respectable coin. Consider playing at some weddings, or target some of the larger corporate venues. It may mean that you have to rework your tunes, but there is money to be made. Or maybe adapt to playing to a younger crowd by playing what they want to hear. Sometimes we have to adapt to keep things going....just another 2 cents.


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## guitarman2

I play in a part time band in Brantford. We are all ex touring musicians. I've been with the lead singer since February 1985. We don't do it for the money anymore and hardly every play. Maybe 5 or 6 gigs a year. Our absolute minimum is $400 a night for 3 peice and $500 for 4 peice. We seldom play for that low. New years eve, if we play it (mostly we do) we get $500 a man and amost always book minimum 4 piece.


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## david henman

ClintonHammond said:


> "burdened by kids"
> Only if you allowed yourself to become so burdened.....


...no, really?

gosh darnit, clint ol' buddy, you certainly have a way of clearly and unequivocally stating the bleeding obvious.

-dh


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## david henman

Beatles said:


> Just another observation...
> It's sounding like there's a beef about bands not getting paid enough from the bars. And there seems to be another issue here about classic rock. And then another about the aging demographics. I have no disagreement with any of these views.
> However, if there is (from what I am reading) problems getting fair compensation from bar owners, classic rock acts not being supportabe, and the aging population having less interest in attending these types of venues, well maybe a different approach should be considered by some bands. There are several other venues that can be worthwhile, if it is a question of making some respectable coin. Consider playing at some weddings, or target some of the larger corporate venues. It may mean that you have to rework your tunes, but there is money to be made. Or maybe adapt to playing to a younger crowd by playing what they want to hear. Sometimes we have to adapt to keep things going....just another 2 cents.


...well said, gary. i really have no business playing bars but, fortunately, i can. and now that we have ceased playing covers, i am much less likely to take their business for granted.

i'm hoping to crack the festival circuit next year.

adapting to playing to a "younger" crowd is not on my to do list, however!



-dh


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## Milkman

Wild Bill said:


> No longer into the scene? I agree, but I'm not sure if it was the chicken or the egg. I've heard many fellow boomers comment that they went to a bar for the first time in years and found changes not to their taste. As mentioned, crap bands/show, no dance floor and "classic rock" bands that don't actually play much of the music they actually listened to way back then.
> 
> This is circular and doesn't tell us much about boomers being an untapped market. Boomers aren't coming to bars because bars don't cater to their tastes. Would they come out if things WERE to their tastes? How can we tell if no one seems to try it?
> 
> As for sitting "in a nice theatre or auditorium", that's a concert! If someone wants a concert then they can go to a concert. It's a different scene entirely. Concerts are for the music and music show only. That's not always why we go to see a band.
> 
> As I said, the bar scene is different. Or at least it used to be. It's a party. A social mixer where the band's job is not just to promote themselves but to help everybody have a good time and buy a lot of beer! It works best if the audience has the maximum amount of fun and makes the owner happy when he counts his till.
> 
> How many concerts provide beer and a dance floor? How many concerts have short sets where you know in just a little while you can chat each other up?
> 
> That's the scene boomers grew up with and that's the scene they expect today. Hell, many of us are on our 2nd or 3rd marriage and may be trying for another one!:smile:
> 
> And one thing about boomers: if it's not their style they tend to refuse to go. Or shell out their money. They've never been good at being told what they should like. It's their kids who grew up on hundred dollar Nikes and Gap jeans.
> 
> I may not drink as many beer in a night as I used to but I'd still like the chance to quaff a few in good company, with a band that's playing what I like. Am I the only one? Are there enough others to make it worth a barkeep's investment?
> 
> Frankly, I don't know. I DO know that I don't bother much with the bar scene today!
> 
> :food-smiley-004:



I don't drink.

If the bar scene is only a party I'm not interested. I view even the most lowly bar gig as a performance, not an excuse to get loaded (obviously). If the audience is drinking that's ok. I'm there to put on a show, not just play songs.

I prefer playing shows where alcohol is not served or at least where all ages are allowed access.

If you prefer to call that a concert, ok. I see our shows in bars or anywhere else as mini concerts.

There are lots of different approaches. This is mine.


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## Warren

Hamm Guitars said:


> Hey Warren,
> 
> I'm in the same boat you are - I'm right smack in the middle of this group. I guess I should have been a little clearer. I didn't mean that everone in that age group was into classic rock, what I was trying to say is that the majority of people into classic rock are in that age group.
> 
> If I get friendly with the neighbors that are in my age group, they generally want to stay home drink beer and play poker. I've offered a few of them free tickets to shows and it usually doesn't peek their interest all that much.
> 
> Andy


Sorry I'll clarify, 

Maybe the Classic Rock/32-45 demographic is to big a segment to to base a business model on, you have to segment it further to find out who your target is, and it's obviously divide-able because you and I see 2 polar sides of it. Or maybe "was into Classic Rock" is appropriate?


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## RIFF WRATH

checked with my local tavern.Elmira, Ont. they book via agent only-Kitchener/Waterloo area. one night, Sat., gig pays $400 to $600. usually 1 band per month. you get $600 if on a return gig you draw the crowds. mostly clone/tribute bands...Tragiclyhip, AC/DC, mild metal, shaniatwin country. usually $5 cover. a couple of proven local young bands that draw a crowd of friends. there is an expectation that you bring a following. crowd is for the most part 30 or under.

cheers
RIFF


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## I_cant_play

jeez, my band's been asked to put down a deposit and "work it off" during the night. $625 deposit and we get something like $1.25 or $1.50 per person that comes in. We're lucky we can get gigs we don't have to pay for..


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## Guest

I_cant_play said:


> jeez, my band's been asked to put down a deposit and "work it off" during the night. $625 deposit and we get something like $1.25 or $1.50 per person that comes in. We're lucky we can get gigs we don't have to pay for..


When I was ~16 and doing all ages shows we did this a couple of times. Definitely we were being taken advantage of. The argument was maybe they wouldn't sell enough alcohol, so the more they sold, the more of the deposit we got back. We split it between 4 or 5 bands. Put on our little show and walked away poorer. It only took two shows like this for us to learn.


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## Milkman

I_cant_play said:


> jeez, my band's been asked to put down a deposit and "work it off" during the night. $625 deposit and we get something like $1.25 or $1.50 per person that comes in. We're lucky we can get gigs we don't have to pay for..




You should burn that trash heap to the ground and dance around the flames.


Any bar owner with a policy like that should be tarred and feathered.


Musicians deserve more respect.

Hang in there man. Not all bars are like that.:rockon2:


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## oldcountry310

Wild Bill said:


> Didn't expect so much response so quickly! Let me throw something else in to muddle the issue!:smile:
> 
> One of my customers plays in a country band. He's booked solid with not just one nighters but 2, 3 and even 5! And they get 2-3 times the money that the other bands get!
> 
> I asked him why and he explained it this way. He thinks it's because rock and roll today has bailed on the dancers! He sees LOTS of young chicks in the crowd and lots of guys chasing them! They pack the dance floor.
> 
> That got me to thinking about what I see at a lot of clubs around here. Often there's no dance floor at all. The owner doesn't want to lose a couple of tables and maybe some chicken wing dinners. I started watching the crowd and indeed I often would see some young girl's foot tapping but with nowhere to dance she just got frustrated.
> 
> Sets are longer too! We used to play 30-35 minute sets, with a break till the start of the next hour. This meant that there was a shorter time before the crowd could sit down and talk to each other.
> 
> Some owners actually demand 90 minute sets!
> 
> I think what's happened is two things. One is Journey! After that band everybody thought they were supposed to put on a concert show in even a small club. In the 70's and early 80's the band was part of the party, a la Kim Mitchell. Journey changed all that.
> 
> The other is that we had a big recession in the early 90's and a lot of clubs closed. New owners came from guys who had lost their job at a factory and thought they could run a club. The experience chain that had been built from decades of bar entertainment had been broken and the new owners didn't know what they were doing. Their only concept of live music came from video footage of concerts. They ran their clubs like an old fashioned family farm, where you grew all sorts of different crops hoping you'd make enough money from something to get by. Clubs became a combination drinking hole, restaurant, pool hall and I dunno - hair salon or something equally goofy.
> 
> The business model of a club had been established for eons. Folks went there to drink, dance, pick each other up and sneak out into the bushes afterwards! The band was there to promote the beer sales. Dancers sweat and need to replenish their electrolytes. Clubs were NOT a concert venue for bands to show off their originals. You could play originals as long as the people kept dancing and drinking, which usually meant you needed at least some if not mostly covers. It was "I am a wild party!" and "You pay for the cab and I'll pay for the bar tab, baby!"
> 
> Country bars ALWAYS have dance floors! And they ALWAYS play dancin' type music!
> 
> I've seen chicks get frustrated at not being able to dance and waiting too long for a chance to get talked up! They often leave after only one set, sometimes dragging a boyfriend along, if he's lucky. Maybe she's taking him to a country bar!
> 
> The only dancing I see around here in rock clubs is slam dancing! Since the chicks tend not to participate you don't see much rustling in the bushes afterwards.
> 
> I could just be another old guy who can't relate but a quick sampling of the local indie rock stations suggests that the material is not really a dance beat. At least, not like we knew in the late 60's, 70's and early 80's. It seemed to end with Loverboy and 38 Special.
> 
> Could the country guys be on to something? Has rock and roll abandoned an important marketing factor for clubs?
> 
> Maybe this should be a new thread or maybe its just an associated factor.
> 
> :food-smiley-004:


Haven't been at it lately but 12 years ago 4 of us were getting !00.00 each for doing country cover stuff on Sat. nights at Legions around here. Lots of dancing and lots of beer being guzzled. I don't think the crowds are that big anymore because of the " drinking and driving " enforcement.


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## Guest

"12 years ago 4 of us were getting !00.00 each for doing country cover stuff on Sat. nights at Legions"
I get 100 bucks to host an Open Mic every Monday night... It's fun... It pays a bit.... and it comes with cocktails....


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## david henman

Milkman said:


> I don't drink.
> If the bar scene is only a party I'm not interested. I view even the most lowly bar gig as a performance, not an excuse to get loaded (obviously). If the audience is drinking that's ok. I'm there to put on a show, not just play songs.
> I prefer playing shows where alcohol is not served or at least where all ages are allowed access.
> If you prefer to call that a concert, ok. I see our shows in bars or anywhere else as mini concerts.
> There are lots of different approaches. This is mine.



...i like, and envy, your approach.

-dh


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