# Delay pedals revisited



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

This is a quote from mhammer from another thread:

*"I'll ask you the same question I ask everybody: what do you need it to do for you?

people use delays in many different ways. Some folks simply want something to give them a decent slapback, or give a little bit of "air" to their sound. Other folks have more complex goals in mind. I tend to find that there are certain "breakpoints" in the delay range thatshape intended uses. The traditional 350msec-and-under range (one BBD chip) lends itself to things that 800msec or 2.5sec do not." *

I tried a delay pedal (Boss DD6) during a jam with my friend starjag last night. I have never had much interest in pedals in the past, as I have always had aceess to great amps that I enjoy and have found that their tone met my simple needs.

However, we thought that using a delay added significant "warmth and "fullness" to our tone...we were trying to get some nice tones for jazz style progressions. We were certainly in the 80 to 350msec. range.

We discussed that an *analog* delay pedal might be a good thing to try.

Any suggestions/recommendations/thoughts ? (NOT boutique pedals...Thanks just the same)

Thanks

Cheers

Dave


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Boss DM-2 or 3 - end of discussion.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Dave if you want to borrow my *Carbon Copy *analog delay to see if you like it, you're more than welcome to give it a whirl. It's a very nice and reasonably priced unit that has a modulation function that really adds a lot of warmth to the delays. Let me know.

Dunlop - MXR CARBON COPY ANALOG DELAY

Shawn.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

I still haven't tried the Carbon Copy, but have heard lots of good things about it.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

hollowbody said:


> Boss DM-2 or 3 - *end of discussion*.


Is the discussion over* after *you try the Carbon Copy?

Cheers

Dave


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

I just got a Boss DD3. Their retail price was just slashed, so they are around $100 new now. It is definitely NOT colourless. That said, I like to run it in a wet dry setup, so my effects and original signal go to my "dirty" amp and my clean repeats (or just clean when not engaged) go to my "clean" amp. It sounds great and huge - lots of body to the sound. Like you say, there is a different feel to the different settings, I prefer mid to long delay times. I guess "ambient" is how I like it to sound. U2 and Daniel Lanois influenced me I guess.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

greco said:


> Is the discussion over* after *you try the Carbon Copy?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


Hahaha, no. I don't imagine the Carbon Copy will sway my decision. If you're looking for a delay to give you warmth and fullness, the DM-2/3 is still your best option.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2010)

The only problem with a DM-2 or DM-3 is you're stuck trying to hunt down an out-of-production pedal. So you need to play the used market game and hope it works and hope it lasts and hope you're not overpaying for it. Blech.

Who needs that hassel?

Retro-Sonic makes a perfectly adequate analog delay based on the DM-2. Canadian company. Solid build quality. No waiting. No fuss. More control than the originals and you get foot switchable delay times. Retro-Sonic Custom Guitar Effect Pedals


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

iaresee said:


> The only problem with a DM-2 or DM-3 is you're stuck trying to hunt down an out-of-production pedal. So you need to play the used market game and hope it works and hope it lasts and hope you're not overpaying for it. Blech.
> 
> Who needs that hassel?
> 
> Retro-Sonic makes a perfectly adequate analog delay based on the DM-2. Canadian company. Solid build quality. No waiting. No fuss. More control than the originals and you get foot switchable delay times. Retro-Sonic Custom Guitar Effect Pedals


While I've heard nothing but good things about Retro-Sonic, Dave did say "NOT boutique pedals" in his OP. At $300+ the Retro-Sonic might be too much.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2010)

Rugburn said:


> While I've heard nothing but good things about Retro-Sonic, Dave did say "NOT boutique pedals" in his OP. At $300+ the Retro-Sonic might be too much.


But a $300 out-of-production Boss pedal is cool?


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

iaresee said:


> But a $300 out-of-production Boss pedal is cool?


I didn't mean to imply that. I'm not the one who posted about the Boss pedals, and had no clue what they're worth.


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## Guest (Aug 18, 2010)

Rugburn said:


> I didn't mean to imply that. I'm not the one who posted about the Boss pedals, and had no clue what they're worth.


I'm just yanking yer chain Shawn. I think the Carbon Copy would be an excellent pedal for Dave to check out. I tried to grab one when they were first released and it was near impossible they were selling out so fast.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

iaresee said:


> But a $300 out-of-production Boss pedal is cool?


The DM-2 is around $200 these days and the DM-3 is under that. Usually $175-ish. That's how much you'd pay for a DD-6/7 or Carbon Copy once taxes are figured in. 

Of the 4 or 5 DM-2/3s I've had over the years, none has ever failed me. Boss builds them to last and last they do. The only reason I've bought a few is because I keep stupidly selling them and then realizing that I should have kept them.

Also, even thought they're out of production, they're definitely not "rare." DM-3s pop up all the time here and on CL/Kijiji and I bet there's at least 3 or 4 on eBay Canada right now. Bang-for-your-buck, there isn't a better delay pedal out there for what the OP is looking for.

Although if modulation is a requirement, then sure, the Carbon Copy is a no-brainer for the price, though I prefer the Deluxe Memory Man if you can commit some extra cash and pedalboard real-estate.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2010)

hollowbody said:


> The DM-2 is around $200 these days and the DM-3 is under that. Usually $175-ish. That's how much you'd pay for a DD-6/7 or Carbon Copy once taxes are figured in.


I think you're being optimistic. Like I said: if you want to play the patience game. Wait for one to show up that's priced reasonably well...go for it. Cheapest DM-2 on eBay right now is $207 and there's 4 days left on it. The rest are all $250 - $350.

DM-3: similar story. There's on in Mexico that's $133 -- if you think that's legit, let me talk to you about some land in Florida I've got for sale. The rest are all >$200. Completed listing for DM-3's show 4 and one of those was <$200 -- and it was non-functioning.

And that's not counting taxes, brokerage fees for shipping from the US or Mexico, where they all seem to be sold from.

There's a DM-2 for $200 on Toronto's CL -- but it has a non-functioning LED. Want to take a gamble on it? The other two are $250 and $240 dollars. No DM-3's.

It adds up quick. Makes that Retro-Sonic look like a heckuva deal really. Fully warranty. You can have it tomorrow. You know it works.



> Also, even thought they're out of production, they're definitely not "rare." DM-3s pop up all the time here and on CL/Kijiji and I bet there's at least 3 or 4 on eBay Canada right now.


How much do you want to bet? Because I checked and there are none of both the DM-2 and DM-3 -- they're not multiplying, they're getting scarcer. Fueled by mojo hype on guitar boards and what not. They definitely aren't the deal they used to be.



> Bang-for-your-buck, there isn't a better delay pedal out there for what the OP is looking for.


Gotta disagree with you there. Unless you're super patient and can wait it out for just the right one you're overpaying for those relics. Clock noise from lousy clock chips, failing parts, rust -- blech. Who needs it?


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## starjag (Jan 30, 2008)

Yep, this one's the one!!!
Retro-Sonic Custom Guitar Effect Pedals


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## NB_Terry (Feb 2, 2006)

I've had numerous Boss DM-2s, and a couple Carbon Copy pedals. 

The DM-2 is a great pedal. It adds a bit of ambience that sounds incredible when you play with a band. 

The Carbon Copy left me kind of so-so. It's pretty good, not great. 

For approx the same money as a CC, I'd try the Malekko 616, or the Way Huge Aqua Puss. I've played neither, but their PGS demos sound great.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The irony is that the Aqua-Puss and Carbon Copy are both Jeorge Tripps products.

I made myself a DM-3 clone. S'okay, nuthin' special. I stuck in a toggle in mine to tone shape the repeats so that they can be made progressively duller.

If a person wants to use a delay for ambience, as opposed to simply having repeats to work with, then some sort of tonal shaping of the wet signal is very useful. It is the manner in which reflections change over time that is partly responsible (along with delay time iteself, of course) for producing the audible difference between space A and space B. You can achieve that by affecting the repeats, or by shaping the overall tone of the wet signal. I prefer the former, but the latter (which Retro-Sonic uses) is useful too.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Many thanks for so many responses. They are very educational, interesting and helpful.

Cheers

Dave


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mhammer said:


> If a person wants to use a delay for ambience, as opposed to simply having repeats to work with, then some sort of tonal shaping of the wet signal is very useful. It is the manner in which reflections change over time that is partly responsible (along with delay time iteself, of course) for producing the audible difference between space A and space B. *You can achieve that by affecting the repeats,* or by shaping the overall tone of the wet signal. *I prefer the former*, but the latter (which Retro-Sonic uses) is useful too.


*mhammer*...Is there a pedal available commercially that affects the repeats...as you describe above ?

Cheers

Dave


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2010)

greco said:


> *mhammer*...Is there a pedal available commercially that affects the repeats...as you describe above ?


Analog delays, by their very nature, act as a low pass filters on the repeats. The signal fidelity degrades as the repeats move through time.

Some pedal manufacturers employ filtering and shaping circuits to hurry it along in their analog designs. And, of course, digital designs require it if you want to mimic the analog behaviour in a digital design.


Off the top of my head: the empress superdelay has a filter that just applies to the repeats. You can set it to be a low pass filter (so repeats get darker over time) or a high pass filter (repeats get brighter over time).

There's a mod for the DD-4 that Analog Man sells that darkens the repeats only. Presumably that mod is out in the wild and you can see how he does it.

And the Carbon Copy that's been mentioned only applies the modulation to the repeats. The Memory Man is like that as well IIRC.


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## Alien8 (Jan 8, 2009)

Commercially available at an affordable(?) with an external fx loop... there are some! 

Moog MF-104 ($$$)
Electro Harmonix Deluxe Memory Boy ($)
Carl Martin Echo Tone ($$)

That's all I could find quickly with Google.

Aside to that lot of them have internal fx, like the Line 6 Echo park - it has a phaser sound and tape warble simulation on a few, but nothing too wacky - like a pitch shifter etc. Some delay pedals glitch into some of these wacky sounds like the old Boss PS-2 (I believe it was) that had a delay setting that would allow pitch shifting staircase delay effects. Eventide's time factor has some capability built in, but nothing for external applications.

Nothing quite like having a nice warm analog delay decaying into a reverse reverberating ring modulated cavern of ping pong delays!!!!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

"_Analog delays, by their very nature, act as a low pass filters on the repeats. The signal fidelity degrades as the repeats move through time.

Some pedal manufacturers employ filtering and shaping circuits to hurry it along in their analog designs. And, of course, digital designs require it if you want to mimic the analog behaviour in a digital design._"

Every handoff from storage cell to storage cell within a BBD does degrade the sound a teeny-tiny bit, particularly if you aim for long delay times and make the sample linger in the storage cell long enough to start draining/leaking. In part, the lowpass filtering employed in delay pedals - especially those filter stages that the recirculated signal passes through *before* re-entering the BBD - is intended to keep that progressive degradation in check. However this is a different goal than that of trying to mimic the manner in which higher portions of the spectrum lose acoustic energy when reflected in naturally occurring spaces.

That lowpass filtering is also intended to maintain maximum bandwidth, so it is situated fairly high up, and is steep. Set thepedal up for many repeats, and while there will be some degradation of the signal after 3-4 repeats, you will still hear something with roughly the same overall bandwidth at the end. Sticking some shallow lowpass filtering in the recirculation path (more about how to do that in a moment) provides a progressive dulling with each iteration, which is what happens in the real world if you aren't playing in a stainless steel gymnasium or stairwell. What you won't get with progressive dulling is runaway feedback, simply because you lose energy with each repeat, whereas steep filters set high conserve energy.

Okay, how to do it? Simple. Find your feedback/repeat knob, and solder in a properly chosen cap between either the two outside lug, or the wiper and ground. That's it. Since the requisite cap value is usually going to accompany a fairly slender cap, you can simply tack it on to the back of the PCB once you identify the right solder pads.

Since many delays tap the Wet Level/blend and Feedback/repeat controls off the same point, any cap going from outside to outside lug will provide hi-cut for both the feedback path AND the overall wet signal. You may or may not want that. Probably optimal is to run the cap between the wiper of the feedback pot, and ground, since that will affect only the repeats.

Note that it is an *interactive* mod: the location of the hi-cut in the spectrum will vary as a function of where the repeat /feedback control is set. All issues of both the DM-2 and DM-3 use 50k pots for delay level and feedback. Let's say we have the repeat pot (or whatever they call the feedback loop) set to halfway, such that the portion of the pot from input to wiper = 25k. With a .01uf cap to ground from the wiper, there is a 6db/octave rolloff (shallow, in comparison to the 48db/oct rolloff these pedals have for the wet path overall) commencing around 636hz. That's low, but remember it's shallow, such that content at 1272hz and 2544hz is not THAT much farther down.

If we turn the pot down to 1/4 of the way, we now have 37.5k in tandem with the .01uf cap, and that gives us a rolloff starting at 424hz. So, the pattern is clear: with the cap in that position, the more feedback you set it for, the higher up the roloff begins. Note as well that if you set the feedback level to max, the cap now applies equally to both feedback AND overall delay.

So, what's a "good" cap value? Obviously it depends on your taste, but clearly if you select a value whose rolloff doesn't begin until up near where the existing lowpass filtering operates, you simply won't be able to hear any effect. So, for those pedals using 50k pots for the feedback/repeat function, I'll suggest a value from .0047uf to .01uf as a starting point, and let you tinker from there. Probably the optimal is to have a 3-position toggle that lets you select from two different caps for higher and lower rolloffs for different ambiences.

the outcome is that you'll find the delays produced more "real" sounding, in the sense that they feel more like real spaces. One of the perks is that you won't hear quite as much of the cumulative grit in the repeats when you set the pedal for the longest delays. Another perks is that it can sound a tad more like reverb when set for shorter delays. NOT a replacement for true reverb, but certainly more in the direction of a "wash" that people aim for with reverb.


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## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

iaresee said:


> But a $300 out-of-production Boss pedal is cool?


Excellent point.


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## Guest (Aug 19, 2010)

Mark: thanks man. Now I've got gas for a DD-4 to try that out on!


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mhammer...Thanks for taking the time to provide all the detailed information. This sounds like a fun mod to do. 

Maybe Ian C. will give it a try...

Does that help your GAS to any extent Ian...LOL

Cheers

Dave


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## snacker (Jun 26, 2008)

dave - i have a DM2 up for grabs for a decent price - i may also have a Japanese DD2 - i also have an awesome sounding 1980s MXR delay rack that i'd let go cheap


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Is that the blue MRX rack?

Despite being space hogs, power hogs, lousy flangers, and short on delay time (and just TRY finding suitable memory cards for them to expand the delay time out beyond 320msec), those things have some terrific features. They can modulate at audio frequencies to achieve ring-modulator-like sounds. You can also modulate delays outside the normal flanging/chorus range for ADT and similar functions.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Hands down, an Arion SAD-1 analog delay. I only really use delay for slap back, "fake reverb", and the occasionaly short-medium delay, and this thing is amazing.

Stereo outs, no tone suck, and gorgeous analog delay. I've tried the Carbon Copy, EH DMM, Retrosonic, Analogman, Way Aqua Puss, Hardwire DL8, Memory Boy, etc and it is my favourite! Other's feel the same way (dude from Catalinbread for example) but this pedal is a sleeper. Best part, $90-$120 will get you one and they are not really "rare." 

Just as good as the boutique and classic (old Boss) but WAY cheaper and sterero!

TG


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## snacker (Jun 26, 2008)

mhammer said:


> Is that the blue MRX rack?
> 
> Despite being space hogs, power hogs, lousy flangers, and short on delay time (and just TRY finding suitable memory cards for them to expand the delay time out beyond 320msec), those things have some terrific features. They can modulate at audio frequencies to achieve ring-modulator-like sounds. You can also modulate delays outside the normal flanging/chorus range for ADT and similar functions.


it is extremely wonky and cool!


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