# Sing like an angel! NOT!



## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

I have been pondering this over and over in my mind but I think I would like to try some backup singing. If I don't try I will never know. Like a doo *** girl or something. My son says I sound like nails on a chalkboard but after all he's my son. I want to try though. What have I got to lose? I think it would fun. If I sound like crap and don't have any potential than it's obviously not for me. Why not though?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Giv'r. If you're serious about it, take vocal lessons.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

what he said......


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

I've never heard of a backup singer taking vocal lessons  but I guess if you've got the time and the money, go for it. You should start by singing in the shower, everyone sounds good singing within the confines of a shower stall. You can also try the ol' stick your finger in one ear method of being able to hear what you sound like over the music that's playing. This becomes more difficult if your trying to do this while playing your guitar.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

There's playing.
There's singing.
Then there's playing AND singing.

All very different. Good luck.


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## 335Bob (Feb 26, 2006)

Remember playing guitar for the first time. Did it sound amazing? Probably not but it does get better over time with practice. Same things with vocals, the more practice the better the outcome. Without practice, there would be no way develop control, breathing and intonation. Just like anything that demands hours of study and practice, vocals are no different. Most of us hate to hear ourselves sing when we have no experience or are not aware of how to get good tone and intonation which can deter our motivation to keep trying. The key is to keep trying, despite the "nails on the chalkboard" comments. I believe everyone can achieve a level that they can enjoy. Definitely, vocal lessons help to take a big step forward.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

The key to singing backup and harmony is to learn to sing the harmonizing notes. The lead singer sings the root note of the chord, and your harmony is on the other notes that make up the chord.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

cboutilier said:


> The key to singing backup and harmony is to learn to sing the harmonizing notes. The lead singer sings the root note of the chord, and your harmony is on the other notes that make up the chord.


Of course, in order to do this, you need to understand the various chord construction formulae...and then train yourself to sing a note that may seem unnatural.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

I find that singing back-up is often harder than singing lead - especially if you're singing harmonies (or playing your instrument). I start vocal lessons on Thursday - and I'm really looking forward to it. I can "carry a tune in a bucket", but that's about as far as it goes.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Doing harmonies is tricky. Realistically, you've got to dedicate time specifically to the harmonies. Stop playing, decide what notes you're all going to sing, sing your various notes and work on your pitch. There's nothing worse than listening to "off" harmonies. Doubling the root or octave-ing is much easier than singing true choral harmonies.


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2016)

'everyone can sing.
not everyone's a vocalist, but,
everyone can sing'.

I like singing. I know my voice sucks.
All you folks that were at Gerry's farm can attest to that. lol.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I don't think your voice sucks...honestly. I think there's a certain minimum threshold for passable singing, but there are tons of people who made it HUGE (that I love listening to) that didn't have a ton of vocal talent (Bob Dylan, Mick Jagger and Neil Young are some that spring to mind..not intended to start a debate, just my opinion). I think it's more about playing (singing) to your strengths and "owning" whatever it is you bring to the stage.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

bw66 said:


> I find that singing back-up is often harder than singing lead - especially if you're singing harmonies (or playing your instrument). I start vocal lessons on Thursday - and I'm really looking forward to it. I can "carry a tune in a bucket", but that's about as far as it goes.


Unfortunately my bucket got old and rusty. I noticed a hole in it, then the damn handle broke off .


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Isn't it weird how when you listen to yourself on a recording you automatically hate whe your voice sounds like! It's not what I am hearing when I speak! A frog in a blender comes to mind! 

I love singing though! Gotta try it though


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## Guest (Sep 20, 2016)

I find it easier singing while playing guitar.
It's a little tougher when I'm on bass.
Go figure.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

cboutilier said:


> The key to singing backup and harmony is to learn to sing the harmonizing notes. The lead singer sings the root note of the chord, and your harmony is on the other notes that make up the chord.


Actually, the singer is not necessarily singing the root note of the chord.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Mooh said:


> Actually, the singer is not necessarily singing the root note of the chord.


That is true. But when they are, the harmony singer better not be singing it too. I know a ''harmony singer'' around here who is just hard on the head. Her harmonies are usually just shy of an octave above the lead singer, and quite a bit louder. Loud and off key are bad traits for a backup singer.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Lola said:


> Isn't it weird how when you listen to yourself on a recording you automatically hate whe your voice sounds like! It's not what I am hearing when I speak! A frog in a blender comes to mind!
> 
> I love singing though! Gotta try it though


The good news is, no one hears what you sound like to yourself, only you. Everyone else hears what you sound like in a recording, and as weird as it sounds to you, this is how you sound normally to everyone else. You can think of it as 'they've adapted to it and you haven't'.

I took singing lessons about 5 years ago, as I was going from backup to lead vocals. It was worth the time and expense to take 6 months of training. He gave me good exercises and good advice but he also gave me positive reinforcement and confidence that I could sing. That meant as much as anything, muso's being mentally fragile like we are.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

I joined a pop choral group because I wanted to sing but didn't know where to turn.
It has turned out to be a pretty good experience, inexpensive and we do performances in senior's residences, Christmas concerts and things like that.
Much of the song selection is right in line with my interests and the whole process has helped me look at music and song writing and structure much differently & I listen to music a lot differently too.
It was a bit nerve wracking at first as I had little idea of what to expect, learning whether I was a tenor, or baritone ( depends on the song among other things)
If you don't want to deal with voice lessons, I recommend this approach as it is a fun and supportive way to learn.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Lola said:


> Isn't it weird how when you listen to yourself on a recording you automatically hate whe your voice sounds like! It's not what I am hearing when I speak! A frog in a blender comes to mind!
> 
> I love singing though! Gotta try it though


I usually sing and scream along to specific albums on the drive home from practice. Today i was nailing screams, drank some water and... gone. Havent gotten it back lol. 

Re hating your own voice, i saw an article on that - maybe mark posted it, maybe it was on social media. Either way, there is an explanation for it!


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Approach the singing the same way you've been doing with the guitar: try to stay in tune, try to say something that worth listening, as long as you nail those two you don't have to worry too much about your tone (if it's true that you sound like nails).


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Another good bit of advice I got from my teacher: Record and listen back to your practices.

Turns out, at the moment we are singing, we don't hear what we are singing, we hear what we are intending to sing. Listening after the fact, you can hear pitch issues. And, for better or worse, you get to hear what the other 6+ billion people hear you like, not like the 1 person (you) hears you like.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

High/Deaf said:


> Another good bit of advice I got from my teacher: Record and listen back to your practices.
> 
> Turns out, at the moment we are singing, we don't hear what we are singing, we hear what we are intending to sing. Listening after the fact, you can hear pitch issues. And, for better or worse, you get to hear what the other 6+ billion people hear you like, not like the 1 person (you) hears you like.


It's the same with recording rehearsals. You think you sound okay when in fact that is not the case. 

Recording yourself is paramount to getting things perfected with yourself and those who you play with! 

I remember when we first recorded a session! I thought OMG is that what I sound like? What a wake up call that was!


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

This may sound silly on the surface.....Get one of those "idol" karaoke/singing games for nintendo/xbox/whichever game system you bought for your kids. And sing along with it. 

I'd even play along with it on the real guitar and put the game system mic on a stand and turn my amp down just enough to hear it.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

djmarcelca said:


> This may sound silly on the surface.....Get one of those "idol" karaoke/singing games for nintendo/xbox/whichever game system you bought for your kids. And sing along with it.
> 
> I'd even play along with it on the real guitar and put the game system mic on a stand and turn my amp down just enough to hear it.


Great idea! Do you know how many game systems we have? Lol


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

Lola said:


> Great idea! Do you know how many game systems we have? Lol


Not enough.


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## bluebayou (May 25, 2015)

I am going to start some vocal lessons to try and get some singing basics down. I won't become a lead or screamer singer but, if Ican warble a bit at some open mics and not attract any cats that are in heat,I will be happy.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

bluebayou said:


> I am going to start some vocal lessons to try and get some singing basics down. I won't become a lead or screamer singer but, if Ican warble a bit at some open mics and not attract any cats that are in heat,I will be happy.


Yes avoiding the Saturday night cat fight screech is very important if you want to be asked back.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Lola, give it a try and like others mentioned, practice your singing whenever you have a chance. Sing in the shower, in your car, etc, etc. Practice can only help as I can testify.

Years ago, I could not sing at all. Now I can sing some songs where I have actually been complimented on my singing. The best advice, I was given was to breathe, as to keeping as much air in my lungs as possible since I was always running out of breath. The other piece of advice was to sing louder because, when I got to the end of a line (stanza), I was too low to finish to note(s). Please keep us updated.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Just remember that practicing singing will help with your singing...but it won't help with your singing while playing guitar. It seems like singing AND playing together is a skill that needs to be practiced exactly that way. At least for me anyhow.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

You know, I've wanted to start singing while playing for a while and I even made a bit of an effort but had a really hard time finding something I thought I could pull off. For me, the main stumbling point is when the vocal cues/beats are slightly different from the rhythm guitar beats (if that makes sense). I find I can only really concentrate on one at a time so either my guitar playing was sketchy time-wise or my singing was off pitch/time.

I actually just kinda stumbled across something I think I can pull off timing wise. I briefly tried it and it was better than anything else I've briefly tried. I'm gonna have to work on my pitch a bit, but the vocal range doesn't really stretch my range so at least I'm not straining on top of everything else.

This will be my virgin, I actually sat down and put the work in, singing and playing at the same time song...Sympathy For The Devil. Wish me luck, I'm gonna need it.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

JBFairthorne said:


> This will be my virgin, I actually sat down and put the work in, singing and playing at the same time song...Sympathy For The Devil. Wish me luck, I'm gonna need it.


Thats a fun one to sing...I do it in 3 different bands. Lots of words to remember though


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

JBFairthorne said:


> Just remember that practicing singing will help with your singing...but it won't help with your singing while playing guitar. It seems like singing AND playing together is a skill that needs to be practiced exactly that way. At least for me anyhow.


It's often said to learn to sing a song and play it seperate. Then learn to combine them.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)




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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Scottone said:


> Thats a fun one to sing...I do it in 3 different bands. Lots of words to remember though


Fortunately I know most of them anyhow, although reading them was an eye opener in spots. Everyone else uses printed lyrics in my jam group so I don't feel bad about doing so myself. I'm sure I'll eventually know them by heart...mostly it's just the arrangement/order of verses that I have to learn. One of the nice things about this one is that there's little to no guitar going on at the beginning so I have an opportunity to find my happy place vocal wise before starting to actually play guitar. Our drummer will be handling the WOO HOO's.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Scottone said:


> Thats a fun one to sing...I do it in 3 different bands. Lots of words to remember though


Lots of words to remember? It's good your not an actor.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

JBFairthorne said:


> Fortunately I know most of them anyhow, although reading them was an eye opener in spots. Everyone else uses printed lyrics in my jam group so I don't feel bad about doing so myself. I'm sure I'll eventually know them by heart...mostly it's just the arrangement/order of verses that I have to learn. One of the nice things about this one is that there's little to no guitar going on at the beginning so I have an opportunity to find my happy place vocal wise before starting to actually play guitar. Our drummer will be handling the WOO HOO's.


 The Woo hoo's are very important


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

No joke...they really are.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Lola said:


>


Very cute!


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Steadfastly said:


> Very cute!


Where have you been? I've missed you being here! I know that life gets in the way sometimes. It's good to see your around again!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Lola said:


> Where have you been? I've missed you being here! I know that life gets in the way sometimes. It's good to see your around again!


Thanks very much. Life has been very busy since moving back to NB.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Well, after expressing my nervousness (silly I know), my incredibly supportive drummer invited me over tonight (the night before our regular jam) just to work on Sympathy For The Devil. Mostly to kinda just give me a chance to work out some kinks before actual jam. It's one thing to toy with it on your own, but it all changes when you're doing it for real.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

JBFairthorne said:


> Well, after expressing my nervousness (silly I know), my incredibly supportive drummer invited me over tonight (the night before our regular jam) just to work on Sympathy For The Devil. Mostly to kinda just give me a chance to work out some kinks before actual jam. It's one thing to toy with it on your own, but it all changes when you're doing it for real.



There quite frankly is nothing wrong with being nervous about doing something new.

It's human nature to have that innate sense of "fear of failure" while doing something that's foreign to us.

Everyone experiences these feelings at one time or another in their life.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Yeah, I just meant that it was a bit silly to be nervous in front of people I know and have played with for months (with no audience). I mean, I know them well enough to know they don't give a damn however bad I sound. I'm a wee bit nervous all the same though.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Well, last week I went out and bought a mic, stand and cord. A little package deal for $140. Sennheiser. Last jam I gave 'er a go...at least for the first couple of verses and choruses (zero guitar at first, simple chords on the 1 beat later) and surprisingly, my pitch wasn't bad at all. I think everyone was a little surprised, myself included. I had to drop the vocals after that point because the semi-complex patterns between the major and suspended chords (a common Keef thing) was just a little too busy to sing too. If I sang that part, I couldn't play what I wanted to play, what I think the song needed. The drummer picked up the vocals for those parts. With practice (or the other guitar doing those parts) I might be able to get through the entire thing. The biggest eye opener for me was the effect that moving my general mouth position in relation to the mic had and how to work that in in order to get the sound I wanted with respect to volume of the various parts of the song. It was also A LOT easier to sing through a mic given the fact that I didn't have to sing as loud as I would normally do without one, not straining my voice or having to work so hard. With that knowledge, I think it may be best to practice the singing/playing thing EXACTLY like I intend to do it at jam. With a plugged in mic and guitar. Practice like you play. It always worked for me in golf.

Considering it was a complete 1st for me and I didn't scare off the brand new bass player that came out for the first time, it was an entirely positive experience.

Whether or not I can ever learn to play what I want to play while singing at the same time is debatable...but I did learn that, with practice, I can sing passably.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2016)

Good for you JB!
When trying to get your voice synced up with the guitar playing,
I found that if you can do it in your mind, it makes it easier to do live.
If that makes sense.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

It totally makes sense. When I'm just sitting around singing, practicing and not playing guitar, I "hear" the guitar bits in my head no problem, off-beat stuff and all. However, I'm having a really hard time translating that to actually playing the off-beat stuff while singing. As soon as my concentration drifts to what I'm playing...I just stop singing without realizing it.

We may have to add Sympathy For The Devil to the Official Riff Wrath Set List. Honestly, I wouldn't even have to play. It's not like anyone would miss the 5th guitar.


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## Guest (Oct 7, 2016)

For some reason, I find it harder to sing while playing bass.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Probably due to the extra concentration required for bass related to the fact that you're relatively new to it. You probably have to think more to play the same song on bass than you would on guitar. The up side is...if you can play guitar and sing, you can play bass and sing given enough practice to feel as comfortable on bass as you are on guitar.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

It's a big learning curve! But good for you that your putting up the good fight! I know that Sid the kid has started to play and sing at the same time and he said it's really hard for him! He's talking about playing and singing Stairway to heaven!


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

For me, I have to able to put something on auto-pilot. 

I think a lot of people just know song lyrics, grew up singing them and remember the words implicitly. They can auto-pilot that while they concentrate on their guitar playing. Me, I never listen to lyrics. So I have to get the guitar parts up to auto-pilot so I can process the words and spit them out at close to the right time. It ain't easy, but I've got over a dozen under my belt now in the last 5 years since I started. 

Syncing things is still tough. Some songs, the guitar and lyrics just seem to overlay. One song I struggle with is Funk 49, I don't know why but the second half of every verse ("I know what you're doing") seems to fall out of sync with what my guitar's doing. But I've had others like that and practice really does make, well, acceptable. Perfect isn't in my vocabulary with regards to my singing.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I hear ya. For me though, while I don't have to concentrate so much on the lyrics themselves, I find myself concentrating on pitch and timing. The guitar bits I don't have to think too much about...except for the timing especially if the guitar is somewhat busy. The problem is...I'm incapable of concentrating on both. The single biggest issue for me is when the timing of the guitar and the timing of the lyrics are somewhat different.


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