# Extremely Frustrated



## Mike R

Background: I'm a 26-year old guitar player, and I began back in 2005. I had a teacher for 3 months (music student) then gave up until this January. I got a teacher at my arts college to tutor me up until now, and last week was my last lesson.

I'm on my own now, and I've already broken strings in frustration due to how unforgiving playing the guitar is, and how hard it is to find answers. I'm having difficulty with bare basic things like how to hold the pick - including how HARD to hold the pick, how to angle it, how much pick should be showing, etc. Also, I can't strum to save my life. I need to know how hard to attack, how much wrist twist there is, where most of the strum comes from, and basically just how to strum, because I'm trash at it. All of the videos online show NOTHING, they just make me sit through 9 minutes of a guy playing so I can learn that you need an up attack and a down attack. Thanks, tips. 

I'm also wondering how hard I need to be pressing my strings, because I'm going white-knuckle trying to get a note on my new E-string and it's still coming out poorly. Is this string just new, or poor quality, or do I need to be able to crush rocks with my hand to play guitar?

I'm not going to ask the age-old question "how long does it take to get good?", even though it's on the forefront of my mind. The answer for me is never. I just want to be able to not look like a total fool when I pick up a guitar. Does anybody have any answers for me? I'm very close to breaking my guitar over my knee and calling it quits.


----------



## Lester B. Flat

It all comes down to ergonomics. You don't need to press a string any harder than it takes to make solid contact with the fret. You don't need to hold your pick any tighter than it takes to keep it from falling out of your fingers. It needs to flop across the strings. You use enough energy to do the job required but don't waste uneccessary energy.

Your guitar may need a setup as well if you're finding it difficult to fret a note.

It sounds like your teachers weren't doing their job if they didn't teach you how to strum or hold a pick. I'd continue to look for an instructor you'll be happy with.


----------



## Mike R

They showed me two different ways, and told me there's hundreds of ways, and to find one that works for me. WHERE I find one that works, and how I know if it's working are things I can't figure out. 

I'm looking for a motion-by-motion breakdown of how to play the guitar in minuscule, painstaking detail. When you say "flop across" I need to know:

-exact angle of attack
-exactly how much pressure I'm exerting
-where it's coming from (arm motion, wrist motion, elbow motion?)
-degree of contact with the string (qualitative is fine)

That sort of thing. My up and down strums aren't sounding the same at all.

As for the fretboard issue, I'm using light gauge strings, and when I press lightly on the E and play a note, it rattles or bends unless I go white-knuckle. I got a pair of pliars and bolted the string down to see, and it plays fine like that. Do I have too much action on my guitar?

Should I just make a video showing exactly what I'm doing so people can correct me and help me figure out if this guitar is really the POS I think it is?


----------



## violation

Your teachers must have sucked royal balls at the whole you know, teaching thing. 

First, how to hold the pick... grip it with the side of your index and your thumb. I'll steal pictures from a Paul Gilbert video. 

Showing how to hold it from the side: http://www.joshgould.net/guitar/holdpick.jpg

Angle from the front: http://www.joshgould.net/guitar/holdpick2.jpg

To change the pick angle you move the little thumb joint deal... yeah it's 1 AM so I probably sound like a fool but hopefully you get the idea. I'll check back tomorrow morning and laugh at myself. 

How hard you hold the pick depends on what you're doing but generally you want it as loose as possible so you don't increase tension in your arm. Just grip it hard enough so you don't drop it. 

How you angle it is purely preference. Paul Gilbert likes to pick at a 90 degree angle while some pick at a 45 degree angle. Same goes for the "pick path"... some go straight up and down as if you were sawing the string (aka 90 degree angle) and some pick at a 45.

How much pick should be showing... again preference. Generally during rhythm I show more but when picking fast parts and leads I have less showing. 

When strumming, how hard to attack is all an ear game. Make sure you get a nice tone out of the chords you're playing. You don't want it quiet but you don't want it to sound insanely hard. Find the middle ground using your ears. Where the strumming motion comes from is yet again, like most things with guitar, all personal preference. I find that using the wrist is easier but many people prefer the arm. 

How hard you should press the strings down... press them hard enough that you hear all the notes clearly, which when you start will feel like an insane amount of pressure but you'll totally get used to it with time. 

How long it takes to get good depends on how much and what you practice.

Bottom line is don't over think the process... that'll lead to frustration. Watch your favorite players and mimic the motions.


----------



## Mike R

They weren't horrible teachers or anything. But like doctors, it's hard to find one that suits me completely. When I was picking in front of them it must have sounded or looked fine and they just said "groovy" and we moved on.

The problem is I have neither the time nor money to drop massive amounts of money on finding a mentor who actually has a grasp of musical theory and can teach. One thing I've learned is that just because somebody can do something well doesn't necessarily mean that person can teach it well. There's a disconnect there.

That's the way I pick, the way shown there. It's not working for me. I can't go by ear since I don't know what sounds proper yet. There is absolutely no happy medium between "it's loud enough to hear the metal twang" and "are you playing? it's too quiet". It jumps from one to the other.

I'm just going to try and make a video tomorrow to show you people what I'm doing. From the sound you can probably tell if my guitar is crap or not. I'm going to attempt to re-string it, and I'm sure I'm going to take a hammer to it in the process if I mess up.

Learning guitar has been the single most frustrating experience of my life, and I haven't had a single bit of fun with it yet. I want to learn more out of spite now, because I don't believe it'll ever be fun. I just want to say I can play.


----------



## violation

I wouldn't worry about spending money on lessons. I've never attended a lesson in my life and I can play almost anything I want (some Yngwie, Vai and Gilbert are kicking my ass but I'll get it). While they have their upsides, they're not _completely_ needed.

What kind of guitar do you have? Electric or acoustic? If chords and/or strumming are frustrating you right now take a break from them and learn some simple riffs like the 'Smoke on the Water' intro. It's easy but it'll keep you interested... other simple ones like 'Walk This Way' by Aerosmith, 'Highway to Hell' by AC/DC, 'Enter Sandman' by Metallica, etc. Just pick the main riff and do it over and over. Oh I remember those days...

Whatever you choose to learn remember to take it slow, very slow. If you can't play it slow you can't play it fast!


----------



## Mike R

I have an electric Peavey Raptor that I got with a basic stage pack. I can play, with slow speed:
-Smoke on the Water (the opening riff thing, nothing else)
-Enter Sandman (opening riff)
-One (opening riff)
-Le Galope Infernal
-When The Saints Go Marching In
-Pick a Bale O' Cotton
-House of the Rising Sun (the first verse, VERY slowly, and the F-chord always fubars me)

The problems:

-Smoke on the Water: I have to hand-pick the chords. I can't play power chords, because when I target and attack just those two strings, they don't sound like one chord. It sounds like ass.

-Enter Sandman: when I get to the part of the riff where you have to play 6 and 5 on the E string, it doesn't sound right unless I press it hard and long. I can't just tap onto it like I do some strings. I kinda hate the E because it makes my hand hurt, having to Iron Claw it.

-One: I'm clumsy, so when the riff switches to moving my first finger off of 2nd fret of A, I can't reliably put everything back into place without breaking tempo and stopping to think. It's also hard to concentrate on it because I'm constantly wondering why my guitar sounds like a pile.

The next three I can play fine, as they're simple songs I learned from my book and only use the higher strings.

-House of the Rising Sun: I make the chord then play the notes like you're supposed to, then switch to the next chord. Not only can I not do it fast enough and smoothly enough, the final note on each chord sounds wrong. Example: first bit is making Am and then playing A-G-B-e-B-G, then switching to C, right? That final G will only sound proper if I hold it until the note works itself out. Any attempt to switch chords makes it cut off or bend weirdly or something. I've tried lifting off slower, faster, more gradually, or just plain letting it ring for a good 5 seconds. I don't understand how you're supposed to be able to switch between chords without notes sounding like that. If I make a video, I'll show you exactly what the problem is.


I get that slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. The problem is I can't do it smoothly. All I can do is slow, and it sounds like crap. I've been at this for three months and I can't consistently make a G-chord without a muffled string somewhere, and I sure as hell can't strum a G-chord to make it sound the same on the up attack as the down.


----------



## devnulljp

Sounds like you need to relax--especially if you're white knuckling fretting the strings. Much of this stuff can't be done if your'e tense -- it's like martial arts, or sports, or pretty much anything other than arm wrestling. Can't be done tense. It's harder to relax than it sounds though. I'd take your guitar to have a proper setup to make sure the action isn't too high too. I had some horrible guitars when I was starting out with what looking back was about a 1/2 inch between string and fretboard. It sure made playing a decent guitar (a) fun and (b) easy. 
3 months isn't a long time. What can you learn in three months? Take it easy, try to relax, learn a couple of chords, and some changes and a few exercises and play them gently until your left hand gets it, then pay attention to your right hand a bit more, and back and forth til you don't have to pay attention any more. It should be fun, and it will be fun...once something clicks into place. I still get a buzz hearing something pleasant or recognisable coming out of the stumbly mess that goes with learning a new piece of music as your fingers find their way. 
I'd try to learn some technical exercises too -- they're not nice to listen to, but they'll do wonders for your coordination. Scales. Chords. I used to noodle on the guitar playing scales while watching movies with headphones on. Don't sweat it. It'll come. Anything worth having is usually a bit of a struggle at the beginning.


----------



## suttree

some excellent advice given so far. my 2 cent's worth is this: firstly stop beating yourself up. guitar is not easy at all. in fact, it's one very hard thing to play. for the first year of playing, you can expect to lose picks constantly, jam your fingers constantly, wear 3" grooves in your finger pads, and etc. give it time to gel, 3 months is not long (and when you quit before, you lost all the muscle tone you had). 

yes, it really does take muscles of steel to play the guitar cleanly. it really really does. you need to take a step back and start by just working on muscle tone and callus first. an excellent excercise for this is to play the strings from low to high, one finger per fret, just chromatic notes... it's toughest to fret the guitar at the first fret (and the stretches are wider), so move up to begin with.. start at say the 5th fret, and play on the low E string 5-6-7-8, then the next lowest A string 5-6-7-8 up to the high E, and back down from the high E 8-7-6-5, to the second highest B string 8-7-6-5, and back to the lowest string. take this slowly and deliberately (a metronome is a great help), and pick each note with an alternating stroke (first note is picked down, second is picked up, third is down -up -down -up, etc). if you do this every day a couple of times when you first pick up the guitar, and just before you put it down, you'll notice that your hands will gain strength quickly. this will also help your right hand gain control and learn the positions of the strings. as soon as you can do it without looking at your hands, you should. as it becomes easier to do, move the exercise down towards the first fret. this is dry stuff, so when it becomes easier, start inventing variations, like 5-7-6-8 up and 8-6-7-5 down, or 8-7-6-5 up and 5-6-7-8 down, and etc. switch things up.

when it comes to chording well, there's all the chords and then there's barre chords. leave barres alone for the first 6 months, really. to switch between chords freely, you need to learn about "chord anchors", and how to see them and use them. this is something a little tough to explain here.. if you go to your local music store (axe used to carry them), you can get the excellent ernie ball guitar method books (they're cheap as dirt, too like $7?), which explain this concept well... or search at wholenote.com for anchors, and you should find some lessons (that hopefully aren't too advanced) on the topic. once you can cleanly switch between open chords and have them sound cleanly, only then should you be tackling barre chords. they really are an intermediate technique, and they frustrate every player at some point. 

the best insight i've gained about guitar is that the learning curve is not like other instruments. the best analogy i've come up with is that while piano is like skiing, where time spent = visible progress... the guitar is more like snowboarding, where you fall over all day for two days and then magically "get it". the learning curve is "plateau" based, where long periods of stagnation are broken up by major revelations. stick with it, you'll be glad you did.

edit* a teacher is an excellent resource, so i would say to try a few more. most teachers will give you a single lesson happily, just to see if you feel like it's a good match. try that a few times, until you find someone who is enthusiastic about your success.


----------



## Greg Ellis

Everything you've described comes with practise. There's a lot of "trial and error" in playing guitar; you need to find what works for you.

Consistent pick attack doesn't come from "how to play guitar" videos. It comes from practise. Same with left hand positions that allow you to fret notes without buzzing, and strength that lets you do it without pain. It's all about trying and trying and trying until it works.

Like Paul said, there's no magic "right way". You'll need to keep working at it, if you want to get good.


----------



## Vintage_Groove

I'm in a similar situation as you. My son and I started drums in January and we both learned very quickly and were playing songs. I thought the same thing would happen with guitar, but it's like wading through molasses; I can see where I want to be but it's taking days (vs hours) to get there.

First off I'd have the guitar checked, some of the stuff you're doing to get the sounds seems harder than it should be. I have my dad's 1970's electric guitar and I loaded it with EB light strings. It's pretty easy to use and doesn't kill my fingers.

I've been pretty frustrated with chords. First because the naming of them makes zero sense (A, Am, A7, Asus) and because some chords require such insane finger acrobatics I can't imagine how I'll ever do them.

But....stubborn guy that I am I practice every night (after drums). And lo and behold each night, little by little, from only being able to do 2 chords properly I can now do 10, and my transitions, kludgy as they still are, are just that bit smoother. I also find that by practicing constantly I figure out ways to make chords better, so experience works here.

A positive outlook, even in the face of countless nights of being brutally tired after a long day, with lousy performances (and still doing the earliest lessons in the series) is very important.

Everything is deconstructable. I'm now going after music theory resources because somehow all this oddball note and chord naming has to have a reason.....:confused-smiley-010


----------



## Hamm Guitars

What you are asking about is technique. There is no right or wrong technique, it basically boils down to what you are comfortable with, can pull off and doesn't sound like ass. There are hundreds of ways to hold a pick, and just as many ways to pick a note - and just as many reasons for doing it a certain way.

I will rarely hold my pick parallel with the strings, the only time I ever do that is when I either strum (as in accoustically), or I want a tug and release attack (big twang). Otherwise I rotate my pick at an angle that is appropriate for the sound that I am looking for, and add in some flesh when needed. Rotating the pick (so it is no longer flat against the strings) reduces friction and allows the pick to glide accross the strings easier. It also has a melower attack as well as a slight scratching sound to it. Just because this is the way I do it, does not mean that it will work for you.

Strumming comes from my elbow, picking comes from my wrist. The odd real aggresive wang chord comes from my shoulder. Up and down strums are supposed to sound different, if there is more than one string involved.

Another thing to look at is the pick itself, I use 1mm thick picks as that works best for my technique. Maybe you might need something with some flex in it, to stop it from poping out of your hand with your current technique.

As for the buzzing frets, that could be the guitar, or your left hand - it is really hard to judge without playing the guitar. If you are gripping too tightly (on guitars with high frets) you can actually bend the note out of pitch.

Do a google search for basic guitar technique and you will probably find something that will help. Moving forward without getting the basic mechanics down might seem like alot more fun, but without the basics everything will likely sound like ass.




Mike R said:


> They showed me two different ways, and told me there's hundreds of ways, and to find one that works for me. WHERE I find one that works, and how I know if it's working are things I can't figure out.
> 
> I'm looking for a motion-by-motion breakdown of how to play the guitar in minuscule, painstaking detail. When you say "flop across" I need to know:
> 
> -exact angle of attack
> -exactly how much pressure I'm exerting
> -where it's coming from (arm motion, wrist motion, elbow motion?)
> -degree of contact with the string (qualitative is fine)
> 
> That sort of thing. My up and down strums aren't sounding the same at all.
> 
> As for the fretboard issue, I'm using light gauge strings, and when I press lightly on the E and play a note, it rattles or bends unless I go white-knuckle. I got a pair of pliars and bolted the string down to see, and it plays fine like that. Do I have too much action on my guitar?
> 
> Should I just make a video showing exactly what I'm doing so people can correct me and help me figure out if this guitar is really the POS I think it is?


----------



## dwagar

one of the problems with playing guitar is that you have to practice, practice and practice. It will never end.

when I started learning, I found a song book with pretty easy open chords. I would pick songs to play that had the chords I could play. Once you've got those 3 (for example) chords down, find a song that adds one more.

It takes a long time to build up the muscles, muscle memory, and flexibility to play guitar.

but if you aren't having fun, it'll be way harder than it should be.

and ask around, you probably know someone that plays, don't be shy about asking for help.


----------



## marshallman

CONSTANT practice is the key in my opinion. For me, it's better if I practice 1hr a day each day of the week, rather than 7 hours once a week. Try it, you may progress much faster.:food-smiley-004:


----------



## marshallman

Paul said:


> Practice is most useful if you know what you need to practice. Very few self-taught musicians manage to figure out what to practice, in what order. The guitar method books are actually quite useful in that sense. They at least give you some structure, and a viable path to follow.


Yeah, I agree, but my opinion mostly refered to the technique aspect of playing, not as much so the theory.


----------



## devnulljp

marshallman said:


> CONSTANT practice is the key in my opinion. For me, it's better if I practice 1hr a day each day of the week, rather than 7 hours once a week. Try it, you may progress much faster.:food-smiley-004:


Yes, but don't call it "practice" -- it is a lot easier when you're a kid and it's just playing. Much harder as a grown up and you want results dammit!


----------



## marshallman

devnulljp said:


> Yes, but don't call it "practice" -- it is a lot easier when you're a kid and it's just playing. Much harder as a grown up and you want results dammit!


Ha ha! Yeah, I guess, but with guitar, call it what you want, but if your not ready to put in the time, you might as well quit now. Prepare for retirement instead, or whatever old people do....

joke.:smile:


----------



## lbrown1

*I feel your pain*

I feel your pain dude......I , like you, picked up the guitar in adulthood. I have had a rough go of it - but after 3 years now - I feel I can play reasonably well enough to play in front of someone - I have jammed a few times with some friends that I felt safe with - re: non judgemental - and I have a jam session set up with some folks that I have met who are very good players indeed....I sur ehope that goes well

First - let me say - that - as an adult - you - like me - are going to have a harder time than someone who'se motor skils are just being developed.....watch how fast a pre teen will pick up the basics of an instrument - or another language - or whatever....brains like sponges - and it is the brain the controls the motor skills......so - us adults will have to have a little more patience in learning this amazing instrument - especially because the motor skills required are so fine.

As for lessons - it's hard to find a good teacher......many who teach are very good players but couldn't tell you what they're doign to save their lives....so you end up paying money to watch someone play well....I found the Internet a great place to find information on the basics of theory - and I used lessons to get pointed in the right direction....but it has been entirely up to me to learn how to play well on my own....I have also found that I listen to music differently now than I did before - i.e. trying to pick up the key of the song, the timing etc.......one point that is worth mentioning.....you can go a long way in playing stuff that is very listennable - by learning the natural major, minor and pentatonic scale shapes and their various positions on the guitar.....and learn the open position chords - and bar chords rooted off the 5th and 6th string.....you'll start to find that most of the songs that you are listenning to and maybe trying to learn - are all using these scales or chords within the scales.


and lastly - get a setup for recording yourself - I found the best way to get better is to hear yourself play - not while you're playing......you can pick out the areas you need to work on - i.e. timing (the biggie for me)

also - get backing tracks......playing along is an awesome way to learn and get better


----------



## Stratin2traynor

I got back into playing later in life (mid-30's). I could barely play anything when I put the guitar down 15 years earlier. In any event, what I've learned in terms of how to learn to play relatively well is this - pick something just outside of your developed skill set and practice getting the right sounds first and then practice the same thing slowly over and over until you can play it properly and at the correct tempo. You are just teaching you muscles to remember the movement so - do the movement correctly (sounds right) and the do it over and over and over and over until you can just play it without too much thought. I remember learning to bend strings and thought it would be impossible for me to remember how far to bend each string so that I hit the right note. It took a lot of practice, but now I can pretty much get the pitch I want whenever I want - not perfect yet but I'm getting there. Be patient and enjoy the learning process. You'll get it eventually and you'll love it.

Cheers, :food-smiley-004:


----------



## Mike R

I'm waiting for that part where I love it. It's not happening yet. 

My teacher had me pick up Alfred's Teach Yourself to Read Music for guitars, and we got through about 25 pages of that or so before my time was up. I questioned why I was learning to read music and why it's important, and he told me that he thinks tab is crappy and confusing, and that with this I can read traditional stuff. I can read up to 4th string now, so that's cool, I guess. 

How low should the action be on my Raptor? How do I measure that, and how would I drop it?

I'm going to give playing another try today. I picked up some different picks to try out, and I'm going to see if I can get some use out of these strings before I cut them. Thanks for trying to help. I'm an extremely negative person with no latent talents or skills, so things like this come 10x as hard for me as anybody else.


----------



## devnulljp

Mike R said:


> I'm going to give playing another try today. I picked up some different picks to try out, and I'm going to see if I can get some use out of these strings before I cut them. Thanks for trying to help. I'm an extremely negative person with no latent talents or skills, so things like this come 10x as hard for me as anybody else.


R-e-l-a-x :smile:


----------



## Stratin2traynor

Mike R said:


> Thanks for trying to help. I'm an extremely negative person with no latent talents or skills, so things like this come 10x as hard for me as anybody else.


You may want to get rid of the negativity. It hinders learning. A lot, as you may have noticed. Have your head in the right place and you can sop things up like a sponge. Have your head in the wrong place and you may as well be throwing shit at a brick wall. 

Stick with it. You will get it. :food-smiley-004:


----------



## suttree

Mike R said:


> I'm waiting for that part where I love it. It's not happening yet.
> 
> My teacher had me pick up Alfred's Teach Yourself to Read Music for guitars, and we got through about 25 pages of that or so before my time was up. I questioned why I was learning to read music and why it's important, and he told me that he thinks tab is crappy and confusing, and that with this I can read traditional stuff. I can read up to 4th string now, so that's cool, I guess.
> 
> How low should the action be on my Raptor? How do I measure that, and how would I drop it?
> 
> I'm going to give playing another try today. I picked up some different picks to try out, and I'm going to see if I can get some use out of these strings before I cut them. Thanks for trying to help. I'm an extremely negative person with no latent talents or skills, so things like this come 10x as hard for me as anybody else.


well.. the debate about reading music rages on, but it certainly doesn't hurt to learn. the action on your raptor should be about 2-3/32 of an inch high from the top of the 17th fret... here is fender's setup guide for strats, your raptor will be in the same ballpark. if you're not sure, take it to a reputable store and ask them. they'll tell you, and if not, how much it will cost to fix. 

remember what i said about plateau learning. you're going to have a breakthrough moment where it will all _slam_ into place (and then you'll forget everything, and get all mad that you now can't play as well as you did the day before)... it's the way of the guitar, lol... get mad, put it down, do something else for a bit, and go back.


----------



## Mike R

Relax? The hell is that? I've never been able to. Physically, I've got Scheuermann's Disease, so I'm usually tense from pain most of the time. I can only play guitar for about 15 minutes before I need to lay down. Mentally, I'm usually thinking about how long I've been at something and how little I ever improve, because I plateau very early. 

For a bio, that's good enough. I didn't come here to whine so much as to seek some guidance. 

One more question: how would I play a Bb? I'm trying to figure out the riff for Wave of Mutilation, and I can't seem to bar all of the strings on the first fret while cramming my other three fingers into the 3rd fret. Is there a trick? Or do I need to shave some flesh off?


----------



## Lester B. Flat

Mike R said:


> One more question: how would I play a Bb? I'm trying to figure out the riff for Wave of Mutilation, and I can't seem to bar all of the strings on the first fret while cramming my other three fingers into the 3rd fret. Is there a trick? Or do I need to shave some flesh off?


Just use two fingers. Your index on the A string at the first fret and your third finger or pinky barred across the 2nd, 3rd and 4th strings at the 3rd fret. Or you can use an E shape chord at the sixth fret.


----------



## greco

Mike R said:


> Relax? The hell is that? I've never been able to. Physically, I've got Scheuermann's Disease, so I'm usually tense from pain most of the time. I can only play guitar for about 15 minutes before I need to lay down. Mentally, I'm usually thinking about how long I've been at something and how little I ever improve, because I plateau very early.


Mike...I am a retired physiotherapist and I have treated patients with the disease/condition you have been diagnosed with. 

I also play guitar (not well at all...but I do enjoy it...playing in the basement to a sold out crowd of one...LOL). 

I strongly suspect/am sure that your posture, along with your pain, is dramatically influencing the (typical) frustrations of learning to play the guitar (you know all this as it is, without me telling you) . You have a biomechanical (postural) disadvantage and the pain (as you stated) will not permit you to relax (and very likely negatively influences your ability to also breathe in a relaxed manner...I view this as a very important factor also).

If you would like to discuss some possible ideas that you could consider trying in more detail (specifically related to learning to play the guitar), please PM me. If not, I fully understand.

More than anything, I hope you get to the stage where you are enjoying the process of learning, creating and listening to your own playing. I stress the "enjoyment" part as we all (at least I do) go through times where the struggle to improve takes away from the enjoyment (as others have stated in many varied ways). Frustration is a natural, normal and appropriate response. It is only a hobby for me (thank goodness...or I would starve) and it helps me to keep that in mind.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## shoretyus

greco said:


> If you would like to discuss some possible ideas that you could consider trying in more detail (specifically related to learning to play the guitar), please PM me. If not, I fully understand.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


_*Wow*_ you guys are typically Canuck.....nice guys *all* of you 

The only thing I have to add Mike is that guitar playing is a retrospective thing .... one day you realize _hey I never used to be able to do that_ ... 

I still say that after 35 yrs of playing badly


----------



## devnulljp

Just an idea - if it's really that uncomfortable/painful, have you thought about trying a nylon string acoustic first? It's not as hard on your hands at the beginning. A full size classical guitar might introduce new problems with the neck being much wider that an electric (a raptor is electric right?), but there are lots of hybrids -- I used to have a Yamaha or something electro-acoustic that had a thinner neck more like an electric or a steel string. Might be easier on your hands at the beginning.


----------



## Mike R

It's not the hands so much as the back, I suppose.

The problem is I can't bar chords yet that are that complicated. I can't bar say, the 2nd through 4th strings without also barring the first. It's always muted, and it takes 20 minutes to muddle my way through and get it sounding good once. Since I haven't seen anybody pull that on stage, I'm guessing it's not correct.


----------



## shad

Well Mike, my first observation is that you are trying to make this way to mechanical, stop worrying about the angle of the pick etc, just feel the beat and strum in any way that is easy for you. You can refine your technique later on.

I don't find barre chords very easy to do either and I've been playing the guitar for almost 50 years. Probably all the purists will jump on me for this, but maybe you should consider trying the "F" position instead of the barre. Play all the major chords just moving up and down the fretboard in this one position.

I can play a clear note on all six strings with very little effort using the "F" position, I fret the 6th string with my thumb and I cover the 4th and 5th strings with my ring finger, this does take lots of practice but for strumming purposes you can just deaden the 5th string and nobody would ever notice.

It is easy to make the major chord into a 6th or 7th by fretting the extra note with your little finger on the 2nd string. Minors are also an easy transition. For your basic three chord songs, you can also use the C7th position and deaden the 1st and 6th strings, so to play a song in the key of "A", you would use the "F" position at the 5th fret for the A chord, and the C7th position at the 5th fret for the E, and the C7th at the 3rd fret for the D. I also find it easier to transition from chording to picking using these positions instead of the barre.

I guess I have always considered myself to be an inferior player because I don't barre much, but on the other hand, my non-musician friends think I'm really good, so it's all relative in a way. I also get some measure of comfort when I see Clapton doing it too. 

Anyway thats my 2 cents worth, so try to keep it fun, otherwise you'll eventually give up in frustration.

Cheers


----------



## Mike R

It looks like I have to give up. I'm not cut out to play guitar, genetically speaking.

I've been trying to get stretches going, like using my pinky for what I'm supposed to use it for, and I can't. I can't even stretch far enough to use my ring finger without moving my index finger involuntarily. 

My hand seems to be shaped weirdly, and I can't move certain fingers independently for some reason. I've tried stretching, but it's the bone structure and odd tendons that seem to be the problem. I can't hit four consecutive frets with all four strings and have the fingers be in the proper position. The fingers have to angle, or they move on their own and slide towards the finger that they're oddly attached to.

Long story short, I'm a bloody mutant. I'm physically incapable of playing guitar. I've been at this for an hour, and I think I actually injured myself trying to shape my hand properly. Thanks for the help, everybody, but this Peavey Raptor is firewood.


----------



## Lester B. Flat

Mike, I'm sorry to hear you say that. I can't help but think that your Peavey Raptor may indeed be firewood (or badly in need of a setup) which is part of your problem. Before you give up the idea of playing guitar entirely, go out to a music store and try some different guitars. Sometimes certain guitars and certain people are bad chemistry. You might find one easier to play. Your guitar has a longer scale length like a Fender. Perhaps a Gibson or Epiphone which have a shorter scale length would be easier.

As for your physical impairment, bear in mind that one of the greatest jazz guitarists to ever live, Django Rheinhart, was missing two fingers on his left hand. Where there is a will there is a way.


----------



## Mike R

I thought I'd stop by one more time to see if there was any last bits of advice.

The problem is I don't think I have the will. Honestly, I don't really want to do anything that much anymore. I'm not missing fingers, so I don't feel the need to prove it to anybody that I can do something. If I was, I might learn guitar out of spite. I'm just in a physical situation that makes it difficult, and the problem is that I'm not sure if I want to try.

On a closing note, if I took my guitar to a good store, what would I ask them? To set it up for me? To modify it? What do I ask for? I think I need the action lowered, but I'm not sure. How do you customize a Fender copy?


----------



## Lester B. Flat

Just say you want it setup as low as possible without any fret buzz. They'll know what to do. It might already be at the right height but there could be a high fret somewhere or it might need a truss rod adjustment. I don't know. It's just that if that issue is looked at you can rule that out as part of the problem.


----------



## lolligagger

Mike R,

If you want to get together then shoot me a PM with your cell number. Most of this stuff is pretty hard to explain over email (i have to admit everyone has done a fine job so far) but if you want some help I am willing to meet with you. 

I'm not a 'teacher' but I have gotten a few friends started and we seem to have some fun with this whole guitar thing. Failing that, I can help you make a bonfire...I will bring the marshmallows.


----------



## greco

lolligagger said:


> Mike R,
> 
> If you want to get together then shoot me a PM with your cell number. Most of this stuff is pretty hard to explain over email (i have to admit everyone has done a fine job so far) but if you want some help I am willing to meet with you.
> 
> I'm not a 'teacher' but I have gotten a few friends started and we seem to have some fun with this whole guitar thing. Failing that, I can help you make a bonfire...I will bring the marshmallows.


I was hoping that someone locally might offer to help. Mike, I hope that you will consider *lolligagger*'s kind offer.

Please let us know how it goes.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## Starbuck

Mike R said:


> I'm waiting for that part where I love it. It's not happening yet.
> 
> My teacher had me pick up Alfred's Teach Yourself to Read Music for guitars, and we got through about 25 pages of that or so before my time was up. I questioned why I was learning to read music and why it's important, and he told me that he thinks tab is crappy and confusing, and that with this I can read traditional stuff. I can read up to 4th string now, so that's cool, I guess.
> 
> How low should the action be on my Raptor? How do I measure that, and how would I drop it?
> 
> I'm going to give playing another try today. I picked up some different picks to try out, and I'm going to see if I can get some use out of these strings before I cut them. Thanks for trying to help. I'm an extremely negative person with no latent talents or skills, so things like this come 10x as hard for me as anybody else.


Hey there hope your frustration level is lowering. Everyone who has ever picked up an instrument of any kind I'm sure has felt your pain. The all thumbs feeling really is something that will only go away with practice. I'm self taught and these days, I'm pretty good (at times) and play lots of things that were only wishes when I started. Music is a universal language that enables musicians of every nationalitiy to communicate in the same language.
For me tab was the way to go cause It was a way to have instant gratification after of course learning the basics. I work on theory now and again and I"m getting it. Walk before you can run, learn some Neil Young, Learn Horse with No Name even if it makes you want to gag. It's a start and like everyone else said , practice, practice, practice... AND if you can find someone to play with that's hugely helpful. Good luck on your quest....


----------



## devnulljp

Mike R said:


> I thought I'd stop by one more time to see if there was any last bits of advice.


I think you need to give yourself a break -- sounds like you're being really hard on yourself. This stuff can be hard, but it can be worth it.
FWIW, didn't Marc Bolan only know something like 4 chords and they were all in the first position (no barres)? I think I read that somewhere and he did alright 

Others have made good suggestion to get your guitar checked and setup properly. While you're in the store getting that done, ask to try on of those nylon string acoustics I mentioned with the thinner necks. You might like it and it might be less of a struggle.

As for the barre thing, you'll notice a lot of rock players use doublestops instead of full chords (so for an A chord you fret only 5th fret 6th string, and 7th fret 5th string instead of the full barre chord), so that might be something to consider for a bit too.

Hope you stick with it and come to enjoy it...

Oh, try learning the house of the rising sun -- it's got lots of basic chord changes to practice and no barre chords. Might not be your favourite piece of music, but it will be recognisable and good practice.
Here's a link (because I can't get the tab to parse out properly): http://www.guitaretab.com/a/animals/538.html


----------



## Mike R

Actually, I've been learning House.

The problem I have is when I switch between chords, the last note sounds like ass. I think I explained the problem earlier in the thread. I don't know if I'm lifting off the string too fast, too slow, not smoothly enough, whatever.

A bit of an update for people offering help: I've been practicing a little, and it's going alright for now. I find the trick is to wait until I'm having a good time practicing, give it a little longer, and then quit for the moment before I get frustrated. Then I leave myself "wanting more", so the next time I have free time, I feel like picking the guitar up again.

Thanks for trying to help. I don't know if I can afford to get my guitar set up, but I'm going to go check this week sometime.


----------



## devnulljp

Mike R said:


> Actually, I've been learning House.
> The problem I have is when I switch between chords, the last note sounds like ass. I think I explained the problem earlier in the thread. I don't know if I'm lifting off the string too fast, too slow, not smoothly enough, whatever.


Don't sweat it, it will come eventually. 



Mike R said:


> A bit of an update for people offering help: I've been practicing a little, and it's going alright for now. I find the trick is to wait until I'm having a good time practicing, give it a little longer, and then quit for the moment before I get frustrated. Then I leave myself "wanting more", so the next time I have free time, I feel like picking the guitar up again.


Sounds like good advice for anyone doing just about anything. Good luck with it.


----------



## greco

Glad to hear that you are moving along with your playing...Congratulations


----------



## zontar

Good to see you're listening to some good advice here.
And figuring things out.

One thing to keep in mind is why you're trying to learn.

Whether you want to be in a band and play music before an audience and maybe even get famous, or just play at home for fun, or anything in between-
that word "fun" is important. It may help keep you on track--so might any other goal for your playing.

Sounds like you're learning though.

Keep at it, and have fun.


----------



## Tricket

i'd definately reccomend you get your guitar checked out, that was one of my biggest problems when i started out. after that if you haven't already see if you can find a "complete learn to play" book for whatever you want to play, bass, lead etc. i have one and it's really useful, teaches you up to professional level :smile:.

one thing you have to remember is practice but not overkill.

:rockon:


----------



## Mike R

Do you have the name of the book? We have an excellent music shop up here that can order in virtually anything, so if you have a good book for learning guitar on your own, I'm all ears, Tricket.


----------



## RIFF WRATH

I have just started learning bass, and not very far along with it yet. please don't take this the wrong way, but your frustration is nothing new to every member of this site, me included. if my bass(s) only knew how close they have come to being firewood. I have small stubby hands.
interesting tip I learned today that works for me. everyone says you HAVE to practice at least an hour a day. what they don't tell you is that the hour doesn't have to be continuous. practice twice for 1/2 hour, or practice for 15 mins. at a time , 4 times a day. I was doing this myself because of sore fingers and/or frustration, but thought that it was a no no. so there's the bass sitting in its stand, right in front of me , taunting me every time I walked by. I decided to show it who's the boss and guess what, I m (very slowly) winning. now I get upset if I have people come by and I can't practice.#1, guitar has to work right, #2 (for me anyway) lessons and the challange of setting goals and not disappointing myself or my teacher.
hang in there and have that guitar checked, even by a bud or neighbour.
all the best
Gerry


----------



## guitarman2

Don't take this the wrong way but I don't have too much patience for whining. The OP says they can't practice for more than 15 minutes at a time because of pain. I say do something else that isn't hard. I may be a bit of an extremist but I believe in huge sacrifices if its something you really want to do Between 1984 and 1996 I lived with a tele around my neck for about 6 to 8 hours a day then played live every night. If you want it you'll do it. No pain no gain. 
I can't remember if it was on this site or another but someone posted a video of a guy playing guitar that had no arms. Talk about overcoming obstacles. Unless your worse off than that you don't have the right to whine.


----------



## zontar

guitarman2 said:


> I can't remember if it was on this site or another but someone posted a video of a guy playing guitar that had no arms. Talk about overcoming obstacles.


I didn't see it on this site--but here's the link to his video on Youtube-
Rick Renstrom "The Fire Within"

Here's his website-
http://www.rickrenstrom.com/


----------



## guitarman2

zontar said:


> I didn't see it on this site--but here's the link to his video on Youtube-
> Rick Renstrom "The Fire Within"
> 
> Here's his website-
> http://www.rickrenstrom.com/


No. Actually the guy I saw had no arms up to his shoulders. He played an acoustic with his feet.


----------



## Tricket

the book i have is for acoustic but there are plenty others from the same people for just about any guitar style, lead, chord, rock etc. they are called the "complete learn to play". hope it helps.

:rockon:


----------



## Mike R

Cool. I'm glad you're so good, guitarman2, and that you figured out what you wanted to do awhile back and applied yourself to it with single-minded ambition. If only we were all like you!

I never claimed that what I'm experiencing is anything new. I guess I misunderstood what type of forum this is. I've always felt that a forum is a place for exchanging ideas, advice, and conversation, not braggadocio. Oh well.

Also, your statement about the guitarist with no arms makes no sense. That would mean that if you've ever gotten a paper cut, or stubbed your toe, and said "oww", then you're being hypocritical, because I'm sure there's someone with massive injuries that deserves to be saying "oww" more than you do. Relativity is a wonderful thing. 

At any rate, since I'm apparently not dedicated enough to the practice to be as elite as you, I think I'll go find another forum. Thanks again to everybody who helped. It's motivated me enough to keep going at my own pace. I just don't think I have much to add to the conversation around here, since what I post isn't considered acceptable content.


----------



## greco

It makes me sad to read that you are leaving the forum.

I wish you all the best, in general, and specifically with learning to play the guitar. 

You can always change your mind and try this forum again.

Peace

Dave


----------



## drak10687

Mike R said:


> guess I misunderstood what type of forum this is. I've always felt that a forum is a place for exchanging ideas, advice, and conversation, not braggadocio. [...] I think I'll go find another forum. Thanks again to everybody who helped. It's motivated me enough to keep going at my own pace. I just don't think I have much to add to the conversation around here, since what I post isn't considered acceptable content.


What you or anyone else posts here is considered as acceptable as long as it follows the rules of the forum. And you're right, this is a place to share ideas and knowledge, but opinions fall in there as well, as they must. What guitarman2 said may seem a tad harsh, but it was not an inappropriate insult aimed directly at you (though it may seem insulting), it was his opinion and he explained his reason for thinking so. You may not agree, and you may, as you did, express your opposing opinion on the matter. Although it may sometimes lead to disagreements or even less than pleasant encounters, diversity is a great virtue of forums like these.

So I hope that you reconsider and don't allow something as silly as this to turn you away from visiting and contributing around here.


----------



## dnoseworth

Is there no one on this forum from Edmonton that can help this guy out ?
Exchange phone numbers you know show some compasion and help someone with the desire to learn to play music.


----------



## Raven

Somebody did but he didn't seem to go for it.

"Originally Posted by lolligagger 
Mike R,

If you want to get together then shoot me a PM with your cell number. Most of this stuff is pretty hard to explain over email (i have to admit everyone has done a fine job so far) but if you want some help I am willing to meet with you. 

I'm not a 'teacher' but I have gotten a few friends started and we seem to have some fun with this whole guitar thing. Failing that, I can help you make a bonfire...I will bring the marshmallows."


----------



## dnoseworth

My mistake, that's what i get for not reading every page in the thread.


----------



## Mike R

Stopping by to check in on a thread. I'm going to attempt to lower my action on my own.

Actually, I DID go for the offer, thanks. I sent back a PM. Just because it didn't happen on the board, don't assume it didn't happen.

Can we lock this thing?


----------



## guitarman2

Mike R said:


> Also, your statement about the guitarist with no arms makes no sense. That would mean that if you've ever gotten a paper cut, or stubbed your toe, and said "oww", then you're being hypocritical, because I'm sure there's someone with massive injuries that deserves to be saying "oww" more than you do. Relativity is a wonderful thing.


You talked about obstacles that you had a hard time overcoming. Such as being in so much pain that you couldn't practice for more than 15 minutes. I talked about someone that overcame huge obstacles. There were probably people in this guys life that told him to forget about playing. But he didn't. As far as myself. I've played with a broken toe. Had to stand basically with most of my weight on one foot. I've played with cut fingers and played with a temperature that I should've been in the hospital. The problem with playing in a full time band (years ago) is that you couldn't call in.
I'm sorry if my post offended you. I'm not much of a hand holder. I'd sure hate to be the guy that takes the time to go over and offer you assistance only to be told by you that after 15 minutes your going to go lay down now.


----------

