# Left lane bandits



## JHarasym (Mar 27, 2007)

This article reminded of a daily issue I face, as I drive 70 kms. each way to work : http://www.thestar.com/autos/2015/03/13/auto-news-bc-targets-left-lane-bandits.html

Having learned to drive in Quebec, and driven in many other jurisdictions (including Germany) it seems to me Ontario drivers are the worst for hogging the left lane and not pulling over to let others pass them. On many highways I use, the right lane ends up being the passing lane.

It's actually illegal to hog the left lane in Ontario. In part the Highway Traffic Act says "...any vehicle traveling upon a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at that time and place shall, where practicable, be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic or as close as practicable to the right hand curb or edge of the roadway...".

What's up with Ontario drivers?


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

They're just like the drivers out here in the land of silk and money, they don't know their left hand from their right, or they're all NDP.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

JHarasym said:


> This article reminded of a daily issue I face, as I drive 70 kms. each way to work : http://www.thestar.com/autos/2015/03/13/auto-news-bc-targets-left-lane-bandits.html
> 
> Having learned to drive in Quebec, and driven in many other jurisdictions (including Germany) it seems to me Ontario drivers are the worst for hogging the left lane and not pulling over to let others pass them. On many highways I use, the right lane ends up being the passing lane.
> 
> ...


Ontario?!?!?!

Try driving up and down I75 from Detroit down through Ohio.

Un-freaking-believable. I swear people never check the rear view mirrors.

I drove six hours yesterday. I drive about 10 mph over the limit when it's safe to do so and in Canada I'm usually around 120~125 kmph. 

If I drove the speed limit it would take almost an hour longer. That time is of value to me and with the number of trips I take it adds up over the course of a year.

I completely understand that some people don't feel confident enough or simply prefer to drive slower. I promise not to tailgate you in the right lane.

But, it's really pretty simple. If you see cars passing you on the right, there's a pretty good chance you're in the wrong frigging lane.

I try to be courteous when driving. If I encounter someone driving slowly in the left lane I approach them so they know I'm there and want to pass. Then I back off and give them a minute.

Some folks just dont get it and I have to pass them on the right.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

The people who drive in the left lanes will never see this thread.

That gives me forum rage.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

It's bad here too. I did a 900km round trip on Tuesday to Grande Prairie....divided 4 lane all the way, probably passed on the right 8-10 times.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Anytime I drive through the GTA on the 401, which is only maybe a dozen times a year (return), I get the impression that it's the volume of traffic that makes it seems like there are left lane hogs in abundance. In other words, if there was half the traffic it wouldn't feel quite so bad. Regardless, it's easy to get stuck behind a bottleneck created by vehicles driving in formation, chiefly due to folks who won't move over.

Equally maddening are the folks on two lane highways who drive for miles with a signal blinker on, no lights or broken lights, riding the centre line, tailgating, etc. A few years ago a passing lane was added to a section of highway 8 in Huron County, and I swear that most folks don't know what it's for or how to use it.

The few times I've driven across New Brunswick and Nova Scotia I've found the drivers to be courteous and alert, eastern Quebec is pretty good too. 

Peace, Mooh.


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## Guest (Mar 19, 2015)

I tend to stay in the right lane. It's empty most of time because everyone 
wants to be in the far left or center lanes thinking they're faster.


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## Option1 (May 26, 2012)

I'll preface this by saying I'm not a left lane hog, and I tend to drive like Milkman, i.e. 120-125 kmh, however, I do think one of the reasons we see so much of it in Ontario cities is the frequency with which the right lane suddenly turns into an exit. Outside the cities though, no excuse.

Neil


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## johnnyshaka (Nov 2, 2014)

I've lived and driven all over the country...left lane hogs are alive and well EVERYWHERE!!

It is rather frustrating when your own flesh and blood don't give a crap about the rules even after explaining it to them...I give up.

I just try not to let it bug me anymore and go with the flow when I'm driving and when I'm a passenger I just turn the radio up and sing louder!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

adcandour said:


> The people who drive in the left lanes will never see this thread.
> 
> That gives me forum rage.



My daily commute home from Hamilton to Brantford, many times I will drive in the left lane almost all the way home. The way the majority of drivers use the road leaves you little choice. If I were to try and get home by using the left lane as pass only I may as well simply just stay in the right lane only and travel between 80 and 95 kmh all the way. The problem is that those that are in the right lane want to drive well under 100kh and are content to do that. Everyone else stays in the left. If I were to simply pass a slow driver and get back to the right I'd quickly run in to another slow driver and have 100 cars pass me including possibly the last car I passed, before I got over again. If traffic gets too heavy to be a right lane\left lane pass only driver, then everyone is just going to ride the left lane.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

One of my pet peeves. 

I have some sympathy for truly ignorant that don't know any better. And they are the ones that will sometimes move over once they've noticed their error. 

It's the morons that are doing it on purpose that really pi$$ me off. They believe as long as they are going the speed limit, they can drive wherever they want. They wouldn't last long in a number of European countries. 

This has become a discussion point on talk radio out here and they happily phone in and proudly tell everyone how they've decided to become police, judge and jury, with no idea how clueless or dangerous they are. And the won't even listen to the logic be presented to them on the radio show. Completely fVcking oblivious to the rest of the world. 

It's so bad the govt here is thinking about making it illegal and issuing 'driving slow in the left lane' tickets. Capital punishment, I hope.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

It seems most people don't enjoy the experience of driving these days with vehicles being merely an appliance to get from A to B. Recent automotive features have taken the need for skill and driver interaction out of the driving experience. Driver's Training, Driver's Attitude (sorry for capitalization) and Respect For Others on The Road is lacking.
>I've been driving the Toronto, Southern Ontario(near million miles) area since 1970, for business, without causing any accidents because I put effort into driving well<


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

guitarman2 said:


> My daily commute home from Hamilton to Brantford, many times I will drive in the left lane almost all the way home. The way the majority of drivers use the road leaves you little choice. If I were to try and get home by using the left lane as pass only I may as well simply just stay in the right lane only and travel between 80 and 95 kmh all the way. The problem is that those that are in the right lane want to drive well under 100kh and are content to do that. Everyone else stays in the left. If I were to simply pass a slow driver and get back to the right I'd quickly run in to another slow driver and have 100 cars pass me including possibly the last car I passed, before I got over again. If traffic gets too heavy to be a right lane\left lane pass only driver, then everyone is just going to ride the left lane.


It sounds like you're passing in the left lane to me which is what you're supposed to be doing


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

The signs in Alberta say "Slower Traffic Use the Right Lane". That wording needs to change.
Somewhere else I drive (maybe Washington?) the signs say "Keep Right Except to Pass". That's what they should say.

I think it's in Oregon on two lane roads they have signs saying, "If you have more than 4 vehicles behind you, pull off the road and let them pass". We need those signs here too.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

those people are everywhere. i used to hang out on a bike forum. the subject of lane splitting came up. i shit you not, other motorcyclists actually said "if i was in my pickup and you came by me splitting the lane, i would just open my door" to people who said they do it sometimes. that one surprised me. they felt that it would totally be justified, everyone should have to equally be stuck in traffic.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

I actually laughed out loud when I read that!



adcandour said:


> The people who drive in the left lanes will never see this thread.
> 
> That gives me forum rage.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

In my mind, right is 100kmh (not less), middle is 110-120, and left is 125+. I do 120, and would stay in the middle except i catch up to the car in front more often then not. I get in the left and all the 125+ people ride my ass til i can move over. I dont do 130 anymore because i cant afford the ticket (in my old car it wasnt a concern - my car was $55/mo and paid for). 

But since the right is used so slowly, I see a ton of transports doing 110 in the middle. So now the 115 guy needs to pass the trucker, and hes slowing down the 120+ guys behind him as he does so.

I drive to Toronto twice a week for band practice, and as soon as im between woodstock and TO traffic increases and I try not to lose it.

My mom says I need to calm down driving, or else I'll have a heart attack. I swear the London-Barrie run used to be easier.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

Budda;
My mom says I need to calm down driving said:


> I'm thankful it's against the law to carry salt loaded shotguns in automobiles.
> 
> Simple solution *-FM 96 Classical Music*, no drums or guitars within earshot....calms me down to a semi-comatose frame of mind (seriously, a variety of music works for me, calm music = calm nerves)


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Ontario?!?!?!
> 
> Try driving up and down I75 from Detroit down through Ohio.
> 
> ...


I'm usually in the right hand lane at 102-105 KPH. I used to be mostly in the left and pushing the limit of what the cops would allow but I find it's less stressful just staying in the right hand lane and moving over now and again to pass someone slower than me or to let someone in.

As for checking the rearview mirror, the national safety standard is it should be done every 6 seconds. I guess most drivers missed that show. 

I had a guy check his rearview mirror the other day as I was approaching the intersection, noticed I was turning right (I had my signal light on) and he moved up and over to the left so I didn't have to wait at the red light. I was impressed. I do this all the time but very seldom do others do what Milkman suggests and check their rearview mirrors and show a bit of courtesy. I don't understand why we should make people wait at a red light if all we have to do is turn our steering wheel a little bit and take our foot off the brake.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

High/Deaf said:


> One of my pet peeves.
> 
> 
> It's so bad the govt here is thinking about making it illegal and issuing 'driving slow in the left lane' tickets. Capital punishment, I hope.


They had a program and did that here in the GTA a few years ago. It made a difference for a few months but before long, most went back to their old selfish ways.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

The worst is when a transport truck is doing 90 km/h and another wants to run at 91 km/h so he pulls out to pass and they end up blocking everything for miles. Of course, the slower truck seems to be able to handle the hills better, so that just extends the time/distance the blockage occurs.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I'm a "left lane hog" on the highway and not embarassed to say so. The trouble is the very wide range of driving speeds out there, and the high traffic density, relative to 40 years ago (i.e., a LOT more cars per linear highway foot). If you drive 110-120 in the right lane you inevitably end up boxed in behind someone doing 90, while people pass you on the left doing 110. If you drive 120-125 in the left lane (already well above the speed limit), invariably someone will be on your bumper who desperately wants to drive 135-140 and is trying to get you out of the way by aggressively tailing you. So just where exactly does a person who wants to drive a steady 120 fit in that 50kph range?


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

JHarasym said:


> This article reminded of a daily issue I face, as I drive 70 kms. each way to work : http://www.thestar.com/autos/2015/03/13/auto-news-bc-targets-left-lane-bandits.html
> 
> Having learned to drive in Quebec, and driven in many other jurisdictions (including Germany) it seems to me Ontario drivers are the worst for hogging the left lane and not pulling over to let others pass them. On many highways I use, the right lane ends up being the passing lane.
> 
> ...


Here's another way of looking at it. I got stuck in the left lane on the 401 one day and couldn't pull back over into the right hand lane because of all the idiots passing me in the right hand lane. Luckily, I got a break and was able to make it back safely.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

In most cases, I only use the left lane to pass other vehicles no matter how fast I'm driving. Once past the slower vehicles, I move back to the right. It makes for a LOT of lane changes, but I get to keep my pace up and it gets me out of the way of crazy people who go SUPER fast. That is, except for the few who try to cut me off as I get back into the right lane because they can't wait the 2 seconds for me to move over.

In heavy traffic, I pick the lane that seems to be moving fastest and stay there. No sense passing people if there's nowhere to go.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

The problem is speed. 

Not lane hogs. 

The speed limit is 100kph. 
That applies to all lanes. End of debate. It's the law.

Whether it's relaistic, is a matter for another discussion. 
Its not slow, medium, fast lane. 
Its three lanes, 2 for cruising, one for passing if nessesary, all limited to 100kph, or 110 out here in Alberta. 

Getting morons to slow down to the speed limit is the problem.
Slow down and if everyone goes the limit, it's actually quite amazing how smooth traffic goes. 

Yes i I support the cash grab that is photo radar. 
Yes I think every motorist should have to re do the drivers test every 10 years
I also think there should be speed checkpoints hidden on every major highway in Canada. That change locations if nessesary to enforce speed limits. 

No need to fight over lanes. 

Slow the hell down. 

Especially on hwy 63


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

jbealsmusic said:


> In most cases, I only use the left lane to pass other vehicles no matter how fast I'm driving. Once past the slower vehicles, I move back to the right. It makes for a LOT of lane changes, but I get to keep my pace up and it gets me out of the way of crazy people who go SUPER fast. That is, except for the few who try to cut me off as I get back into the right lane because they can't wait the 2 seconds for me to move over.
> 
> In heavy traffic, I pick the lane that seems to be moving fastest and stay there. No sense passing people if there's nowhere to go.


This is what I was just about to say.

It's an continuous driving technique to do your part in helping with the flow, while sticking to the law, and not gumming things up. The only thing I would add is that I try to always keep three car lengths in front of me.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ed2000 said:


> It seems most people don't enjoy the experience of driving these days with vehicles being merely an appliance to get from A to B. Recent automotive features have taken the need for skill and driver interaction out of the driving experience. Driver's Training, Driver's Attitude (sorry for capitalization) and Respect For Others on The Road is lacking.
> >I've been driving the Toronto, Southern Ontario(near million miles) area since 1970, for business, without causing any accidents because I put effort into driving well<



I think you make a good point. For many, driving is purely a task with the only goal to get from point A to point B safely. For those folks, autonomous cars will be a good solution.

Personally, I love driving, in fact, I'm now planning for the emergence of my batmobile (summer car) from her heated and secured garage.

If you're driving the speed limit or less in the left lane in front of me, I'd advise you to install a jump ramp on the back of your car.

When you're driving in or near the GTA, left lane or right lane doesn't make much difference IMO.

I'm speaking more about the vast open stretches of highway we have in Ontario. To see some douchebag driving exactly the same speed as the car to his right while a long line of cars accumulates to his or her rear is maddening as hell.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

djmarcelca said:


> The problem is speed.
> 
> Not lane hogs.
> 
> ...


No, the problem is ignorant or self righteous A-holes who are either oblivious to the reality that other people have places to be or things to do or worse, that it's their place to enforce the speed limit.

You can drive by every OPP in the province doing 120kmph and they'll just blink and watch you go by.

If the world moves that slowly for you, you'll enjoy your old age, but please buy a bus pass.

The 100kmph speed limit (converted from 60 mph) has been in effect since before seatbelts, airbags, and probably power steering. Everybody including the cops knows it should be at least 120 like it is in most states.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Budda said:


> *In my mind, right is 100kmh (not less), *middle is 110-120, and left is 125+. I do 120, and would stay in the middle except i catch up to the car in front more often then not. I get in the left and all the 125+ people ride my ass til i can move over. I dont do 130 anymore because i cant afford the ticket (in my old car it wasnt a concern - my car was $55/mo and paid for).
> 
> But since the right is used so slowly, I see a ton of transports doing 110 in the middle. So now the 115 guy needs to pass the trucker, and hes slowing down the 120+ guys behind him as he does so.
> 
> ...


That's how I drive, but strictly speaking, that's not what a "maximum speed limit" implies.
I have no issue with someone driving 90kph in the right lane.
Perhaps even less in bad weather.
I think we sometimes forget that the left lane is a passing lane, pass and gtf over...not an autobahn lane.

Although I think going with the flow of traffic whether it be above or below the limit, is usually the best practice.

When I was 16, I was pulled over by a cop for driving 100 in the left lane. I was a dumb kid, and I probably drove extra slowly when the cop was right behind me. He asked me why I was driving at that speed in the left lane. I told him, because if I was driving any more than that hed have pulled me over speeding! he was cool, just told me not to do that, and let him worry about the speeders. I wish more cops were like that...helping drivers correct their mistakes.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

Milkman said:


> No, the problem is ignorant or self righteous A-holes who are either oblivious to the reality that other people have places to be or things to do or worse, that it's their place to enforce the speed limit.
> 
> You can drive by every OPP in the province doing 120kmph and they'll just blink and watch you go by.
> 
> ...



Doesn't matter. 

You nor I get to pick and choose which laws we obey. (Boy I wish I could sometimes)

Yes I am cognizant of "things to do, people to see" Everyone is. However, I am more cognizant of arriving in one piece and without fines or infractions. 
If I have a gig 5 hours away, Guess what? I allow for 5 Hours to drive there. This isn't rocket science

The last time I drove how I wanted, when I wanted was in the 90's when I was still living in Toronto. Guess what, It cost me 450.00 in fines that year.
I haven't had a fine since then

Also our good friends at Mythbusters did an experiment about this very thing.

Does rapidly changing lanes and speeding get you through urban freeway traffic faster than staying in one lane and going (more or less) the limit?

Long story short, it was pretty close to a Push, but the rapid lane changer used more fuel.



Also a case should be made for simply knowing how to drive. 
Y'think CANADA's WORST DRIVER is a "fake reality" show?
Those drivers on there are actually real drivers


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

djmarcelca said:


> The problem is speed.
> 
> Not lane hogs.
> 
> ...


Your idealism is either admirable or naive  I don't want to insult you, so I grant you the former!

Highway 63 is NASCAR North, hadn't you heard? Man, I am glad I don't have to go up to Fort Mac any more - been 5-6 years now, though I only had to do it 2-3 times a year back then.

I actually think there should be graduated licenses to do with speed (applicable to divided multilane only), say 90 for newbs or people in the penalty box with lots of demerits, to a max of 125-130 for those with proven skills and long term incident free records (plus maybe an upgraded safety inspection on the vehicle to be used if older than 3-4-5 years). At a million km since last pulled over or accident, I would think I could go there and do it safely. Sticker or tag on the car, easily identifiable by both regular citizens and the cops. More severe penalties than currently exist for violations.

Never gonna happen, of course.

Photo radar and speed traps don't bother me. Again, a million kliks since I was last pulled over. I don't disagree about driving tests either. But the bureaucracy, omg, the thought of it makes the mind spin (same applies to my idea on graduated licenses).


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Oh....the way I drive.....Over the years I slowed down to the speed limit and stick in the right lane for the most part. I have found that slowing down has done wonders for my stress level. I give myself lots of time to get where I am going, and even on long trips I find that the leisurely pace makes little difference in my overall arrival time. When I was aggressive and fast I was stressed and it only saved me maybe a couple of minutes and that just was not worth it. I try to stay closer to the shoulder so those who want to pass have a clear view of the oncoming lane. Another thing, I avoid the big highways if I can. I like secondary and rural (paved) roads. When I go to the Manitoulin Island from here in Seaforth, I don't hit the 401 until Moonstone. I hate the 400 series highways. I drove to Hamilton area a while back and the friggin interchange to the QEW (???) puts you merging into the left lane.....crazy!! Then there is the Burlington skyway....anxiety on wheels through that whole area. People are nuts in that area.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I think it is worth noting that many of the more vocal opinions here are coming from people exasperated with "the 4xx experience". In other words, the issue of left-lane hogs is fundamentally an issue with the heavily congested divided highways in southern Ontario.

My typical Ontario 4xx experience consists largely of the 416 between Ottawa and the 401, the 401 to Toronto, and the QEW between Toronto and Hamilton. There was a time when eastbound traffic out of Toronto prety much thinned out at Pickering, and you had your pick of where you felt like driving, atthe speed you felt comfortable driving. Nowadays it doesn't really thin out until Cobourg, thickens up at Belleville for a bit, then again for 40km east and west of KIngston.

Basically, what used to be open road isn't anymore. I used to drive a car with cruise control, and briefly lamented its absence when I had to get another car. BUt now I know that unless I lucked into some magic hour on the 401 or 416, cruise control is essentially useless because of the traffic density, and the variety of driving speeds among those cars, that requires constant adjustment of speed. Those two factors, plus the easily resentable commuting distances that too many people living in major metropolitan areas face these days (because housing is too bloody expensive in the city itself) are responsible for the brunt of the driving behaviour we gripe about. None of your guys would have complained about left-lane hogs in 1975, because you had tons of space in the right hand lane, and only needed to pass now and then, using a left lane that was all but empty.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2015)

I have a class AMz (tractor trailer, motorcycle). The training involved
in those class levels should be taught in the G class as well. It's *all* 
about safety and how to watch for/avoid dickheads on the road. And!,
since this is Canada (the great *white* north), there should be mandatory 
winter drive testing to obtain/keep a license. IMO.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Re: posted speeds. It doesnt matter how fast you are going if all you're trying to do is maintain a safe distance. 

I want to keep at least 3 cars between me and the guy in front (more if traffic is light, because it's doable). 

But when I either have a douche on my bumper, lose that distance due to someone seeing it as "their passing spot", or catch up to the 100km/h in front of me, my safe distance is reduced all the damn time.

You cant leave a safe distance on the 400's because people just jump in.

And those same people sometimes drive on your rural highways (I have to mentally reset when I visit my hometown).


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

mhammer said:


> I'm a "left lane hog" on the highway and not embarassed to say so. The trouble is the very wide range of driving speeds out there, and the high traffic density, relative to 40 years ago (i.e., a LOT more cars per linear highway foot). If you drive 110-120 in the right lane you inevitably end up boxed in behind someone doing 90, while people pass you on the left doing 110. If you drive 120-125 in the left lane (already well above the speed limit), invariably someone will be on your bumper who desperately wants to drive 135-140 and is trying to get you out of the way by aggressively tailing you. So just where exactly does a person who wants to drive a steady 120 fit in that 50kph range?


I know if I keep it just under 120kph, I won't get a ticket. Over that and you are taking a chance. If someone comes up to me going faster than that and I am going faster than the cars in the center lane, the person behind me just has to wait until I get past the center lane traffic and get a chance to get over. If there is no one beside me, I get over right away and let them pass. I try to be polite as possible and get over as soon as I can but I will not risk getting a speeding ticket just to please the person behind me.

- - - Updated - - -



djmarcelca said:


> Yes i I support the cash grab that is _*photo radar. *_


I really liked photo radar. It turned a lot of drivers into more mannerly drivers. As long as it is used with a bit of leeway then it will stop the crazy drivers and you won't get a ticket if you watch your speed and use cruise. It also cuts down on stressful driving and everyone knows there is enough stress in this world of ours.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

laristotle said:


> I have a class AMz (tractor trailer, motorcycle).
> 
> I have GMAZ as well but what made me a better defensive driver was getting my M(otorcycle) 2 years after the G. On a bike you just assume everyone is trying to get you. I transferred those learned 2 wheel defensive skills to 4, 6, 10 and 18 wheels.
> When I tested for my G, I took a few drives with my Dad, studied the handbook and passed first time. For the bike, I practiced on a nearby parking lot and on the day of my test was the first time I could legally drive on roads to the exam centre where the examiner watched me drive down the road, do a U turn and come back, 5 minutes, if that.
> ...


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I get it, in Project Mayhem, everyone in front of me is a maniac who needs to learn the rules of the road. Everyone behind me is a turd who needs to learn the rules of the road........

I think self driving cars will be awesome. Everywhere there are problems. You go on the Autobahn, and you run into Eastern Europeans doing 60 in their Trabant. You go 280km/h on the Autobahn, and still get passed...............

Speed limits are way to screwy in Canada though. Its like they never realized cars are getting faster, quicker and can break and control much better. Cars no longer take 3 km to break, roll over from basic turns, and have pieces fly off if you go over 200km/h. Well most dont, we still have Peugeots.........


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2015)

ed2000 said:


> If there is such thorough training and testing done on truck licenses why is it that a noticeable number of truckers are as ignorant as 4 wheelers in their road manners??


Unfortunately, manners are something that's not taught.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

djmarcelca said:


> Doesn't matter.
> 
> You nor I get to pick and choose which laws we obey. (Boy I wish I could sometimes)
> 
> ...


It's simple really. If people are passing you on the right, you should move one lane to the right. Keep doing that until you either run out of lanes or you're finally moving faster than the lane to your right.

If I have a six hour drive and I drive 20 kmph over the limit I get home a lot sooner. That time is of value to me. It adds up over the course of a year.

If you're not worried about time, please accept that others are.

A fast driver is not necessarily a bad or discourteous one. I signal all lane changes, check my blind spots and try to look well ahead on the highway.

There's just no reason to get in peoples way.

Even walking people will take the same attitude. Trying to get from gate to gate in a major airport with people walking three or four abreast or stopping to chat in the middle of a concourse is a clear indication of how stunned and oblivious many people are to those around them.

And if you got that many fines, you are also oblivious to the cops. 

I haven't had a ticket for at least five years.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The previous 40 posts amply illustrate why I choose to take the bus to work, instead of my car. The nation's highways are a panorama of the full scope of human bad judgment and misbehaviour. I prefer to like people, so I figure that if I avoid seeing their worst side too often, I'll have a higher opinion of them, and be less of a misanthrope.

Like Budda, when I do have to drive on a highway, I also prefer to leave some distance - a "space cushion" - between my vehicle and the one in front of me, just like my driving instructor (YDC founder Peter Christenson) taught us to do. Sadly, far too many other drivers perceive that as "unused space" to be allocated to their passing opportunity. It is a constant tug of war to situate one's own vehicle equidistant from the one behind you and the one in front, regardless of lane or speed of traffic.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

My dad's best advice to me regarding driving was to do what others expect you will do. It's the unpredictable drivers that are the worst - the ones who cut across multiple lanes, stop dead because their phone rings or they passed their destination, pass on the shoulder or on an exit lane, drive at 70k one second and accelerate to 120 the next. 

Seriously, do what others expect and telegraph your intentions whenever possible - and be consistent. If you miss your turn, don't stop and back up or cut across 3 lanes - take the next exit and correct yourself. Drive with the traffic - not against it - if everybody else is doing 120 you are dangerous to yourself and everyone around you if you choose to self-righteously go much slower or stick in the fastlane.

If we could replace radar with idiot detectors we'd be so much better off.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

You guys in Ontario seem to have a lot of multi-lane roads. With a lot of idiots on them. Here in albertia and in Gods country on most of the roads when you come upon a slow moving vehicle you pass quickly and pull back into your lane before getting splattered over the front of a Kenworth.


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## JHarasym (Mar 27, 2007)

mhammer said:


> None of your guys would have complained about left-lane hogs in 1975


In Quebec in the 1970's when I was driving there (as well as Europe in 1976 to 1980) it was absolutely considered bad driving to sit in the left lane (and extremely dangerous on the autobahn). It was understood that courteous driving meant always keeping to the right except to pass. Passing on the right is more dangerous.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Do you find sometimes there can be long stretches of highway where, for some reason, the left-lane surface is in terrible shape, and the right lane much smoother, or the reverse? People end up driving in one lane or the other just to minimize the annoying bumps.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

mhammer said:


> Do you find sometimes there can be long stretches of highway where, for some reason, the left-lane surface is in terrible shape, and the right lane much smoother, or the reverse? People end up driving in one lane or the other just to minimize the annoying bumps.


i cant say ive ever noticed that, so I don't think its a factor.
I just think more than ever, people are inconsiderate/selfish...possibly ignorant.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Electraglide said:


> You guys in Ontario seem to have a lot of multi-lane roads. With a lot of idiots on them. Here in albertia and in Gods country on most of the roads when you come upon a slow moving vehicle you pass quickly and pull back into your lane before getting splattered over the front of a Kenworth.


haha...ya, its true, if you drive in rural areas, a bigger problem is getting stuck behind a tractor/school bus.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Why are some people so against looking in their mirrors, shoulder checking or changing lanes? If you aren't 1000% comfortable with all of those (basically able to do them in your sleep), give up your license and get a bus pass. PLEASE!

It's simple to me. I want to drive as far away from everyone else as I can. If I see a group of vehicles all bunched up, usually due to two people right beside each other at exactly the speed limit and not allowing anyone by, I want to make my way past and distance myself from them. I feel much safer with space around me, if I can do it. Of course, impossible in bumper-to-bumper, and I'm not talking about that.

But if you're holding people up and unable to see them in your mirrors or unable or unwilling to change to a slower lane, your a moron. Your attitude is causing accidents. And you should really wonder what your problem is. Some self-analysis perhaps.

I have a theory. I think these people are powerless in all other aspects of their lives. Wife/husband tells them what to do, kids tell them what to do, bosses tell them what to do. So they get in traffic and are able to exert a bit of power over everyone else. "Oooohhhh, look at me. I'm in front of you and you can't get past me. Look at me. I'm so powerful." Get over yourself. Or give up your license and get a bus pass. PLEASE!


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Diablo said:


> haha...ya, its true, if you drive in rural areas, a bigger problem is getting stuck behind a tractor/school bus.


Try albertia during seeding or harvest times. Getting stuck behind a bunch of combine harvesters at once.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

South west Ontario has no shortage of farm equipment on the roads and highways. I really don't mind, my belly is full and they are the reason.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> It's simple really. If people are passing you on the right, you should move one lane to the right. Keep doing that until you either run out of lanes or you're finally moving faster than the lane to your right.
> 
> If I have a six hour drive and I drive 20 kmph over the limit I get home a lot sooner. That time is of value to me. It adds up over the course of a year.
> 
> ...


What you mention above is really a sign of selfishness and ignorance, is it not?


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

The biggest fools are the ones that can't stand being passed. I would be rich if I had a nickel for every moron I have had to play tag with for 100 kms. They actually get irate if you pass them. When I drove west of Hamilton to the Sarnia border I would flip on the cruise control and most times never turn it off until I reached the border or my bladder was about to burst. Can't do that east of Hamilton 

But today the rules of the lanes is gone. Nobody seems to understand what they mean. The left is the same as the right to most people now. Just oblivious to everything and everyone around them. On major highways they have no idea just how disruptive that is to the flow of traffic


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> The biggest fools are the ones that can't stand being passed. I would be rich if I had a nickel for every moron I have had to play tag with for 100 kms. They actually get irate if you pass them. When I drove west of Hamilton to the Sarnia border I would flip on the cruise control and most times never turn it off until I reached the border or my bladder was about to burst. Can't do that east of Hamilton
> 
> But today the rules of the lanes is gone. Nobody seems to understand what they mean. The left is the same as the right to most people now. Just oblivious to everything and everyone around them. On major highways they have no idea just how disruptive that is to the flow of traffic


Going thru Jasper Park a few years ago, there was a guy who just *would not* let me pass him - literally swerved out to his left as I went to overtake. Twice. I have no idea what I did to piss him off. I don't tailgate, tho as I'm gaining passing speed I suppose I might get closer than he was comfortable with. Coulda killed us both easily. There was nobody else on the road but us, in either direction, for a looong time.


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

Spain taught me the best tricks of all. Any sudden changes in traffics speed or danger - put on the emergency flashers. 

Want to advance the slower car in the L lane, put your indicator on as if wanting to turn left as you approach and don't tailgate, give them 20 seconds to respond and then perhaps flash the highs still with the indicator on. Amazing how it works.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I agree the left lane bandits are bad--so are those who zoom past you on the right.
They could have gone to the left, but they go to the right.
Or when the right lane ends they get out of the lane you're in and zoom up at well over the speed limit and try to cut in--when traffic is already going slowly due to volume.
And they get mad if you don't let them in.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

zontar said:


> I agree the left lane bandits are bad--so are those who zoom past you on the right.
> They could have gone to the left, but they go to the right.
> Or _*when the right lane ends they get out of the lane you're in and zoom up at well over the speed limit and try to cut in*_--when traffic is already going slowly due to volume.
> And they get mad if you don't let them in.


If there is a bumper to bumper backup and that happens, I pull out in that lane and don't let them pass. I keep my position and don't try to get ahead. When the right lane ends, I signal and get back in my original spot and the driver that was behind me always lets me back in. It's amazing to watch the body language in the rearview mirror. The driver is very agitated for about a minute, then realizes he is not going to get past, knows he/she is in the wrong and settles down and gets into the land somewhere behind me. I learned this by watching many tractor trailer drivers do it.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I try to drive courteously and safely according to conditions and traffic, _but_ I do like to drive a bit over in nice open stretches of highway.

I check my mirrors often and if I see anyone approaching me from the rear, I look for a safe opportunity to move to the right.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

Don't get me started on the 'right lane bandits' aka e-bikes.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> If there is a bumper to bumper backup and that happens, I pull out in that lane and don't let them pass. I keep my position and don't try to get ahead. When the right lane ends, I signal and get back in my original spot and the driver that was behind me always lets me back in. It's amazing to watch the body language in the rearview mirror. The driver is very agitated for about a minute, then realizes he is not going to get past, knows he/she is in the wrong and settles down and gets into the land somewhere behind me. I learned this by watching many tractor trailer drivers do it.


That's BS a) you're not traffic enforcement - that's exactly the same as the people doing 99 in the left lane and not moving because they're doing the limit and think nobody should pass them b) yer gonna get yerself killed by either a bad driver or a road rager

I regularly pass on the right, on open road though not in that ^ scenario. Slower traffic ain't on the right? I guess I will be. What's an 'e-bike'?


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

keto said:


> That's BS a) you're not traffic enforcement - that's exactly the same as the people doing 99 in the left lane and not moving because they're doing the limit and think nobody should pass them b) yer gonna get yerself killed by either a bad driver or a road rager
> 
> I regularly pass on the right, on open road though not in that ^ scenario. Slower traffic ain't on the right? I guess I will be. What's an 'e-bike'?


He's talking about people passing others illegally in slow traffic. They put themselves before everyone else. It's unacceptable and I do the same thing.

If they wanna get out of their cars in anger, I'd happily meet them half way.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

keto said:


> T What's an 'e-bike'?


A glorified electric bicycle, resembling a motor scooter, ridden by people who feel entitled by law to take up an entire lane of traffic at speeds of up to 30 kmh.
AKA -"I'm too lazy to pedal a bicycle but I can break all the traffic laws a bicycle can"
skip to :40 secs
[video=youtube;bcPrnRsZKxk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcPrnRsZKxk[/video]


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

keto said:


> That's BS a) you're not traffic enforcement - that's exactly the same as the people doing 99 in the left lane and not moving because they're doing the limit and think nobody should pass them b) yer gonna get yerself killed by either a bad driver or a road rager


That's not the same at all. These people see the lane ending and they have to cut someone or several someones off in order to get in. I have seen them coming from 1/4 mile back when the people in the lane beside them are all stopped but they still think it's their right to pass everyone and get in front and slow the traffic even more. Just wait your turn. Those people who cut in are just selfish and think they are more important than those they are cutting in front of and feel they have a right to do so. 

By cutting people off that way it also increases that backup so they are just adding to the problem.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

ed2000 said:


> A glorified electric bicycle, resembling a motor scooter, ridden by people who feel entitled by law to take up an entire lane of traffic at speeds of up to 30 kmh.


Except when they do what that guy did--and ignore the lane to go by --before he even ran the red light.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

With E-bikes, pedestrians, motorcycles and cyclists I see one tendency that is a bit aggravating.

They demand to be protected by the laws and rules of the road, but often fail to comply with those laws and rules.

Jaywalking, riding on sidewalks when convenient, lane splitting.......

I see it every day in the warm months.


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## JHarasym (Mar 27, 2007)

The Darwin Awards are devoted to recognizing those of superior stupidity in this world, and their willingness to remove themselves from it and thankfully ceasing to further reproduce.


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## sorbz62 (Nov 15, 2011)

cheezyridr said:


> those people are everywhere. i used to hang out on a bike forum. the subject of lane splitting came up. i shit you not, other motorcyclists actually said "if i was in my pickup and you came by me splitting the lane, i would just open my door" to people who said they do it sometimes. that one surprised me. they felt that it would totally be justified, everyone should have to equally be stuck in traffic.


This is what really, really, REALLY grips my shit (as we say in the UK) about bikes in Canada - i have been riding for 30 years in Europe, where filtering between lanes (lane splitting??) is accepted and the reason why laods of guys ride bikes. Why the fuck would you buy a bike and then sit in lane behind all the tin cans on the freeway??? I saw a guy on the QEW sat in gridlock on his Harley and wound my window down, asking him why he didn't just ride between the cars and he gave me a 'I have no idea what you are talking about' look! You are sheeple, people!

This is why I haven't bought a bike here, even though I love them.

Cheers,
Jim

- - - Updated - - -

Oh and btw, I think the standard of driving in Ontario is absolutely awful. You want to see how drivers cope with the new roundabouts here in Collingwood - it is farcical!

- - - Updated - - -

...... Oh and when I stop at a 4-way and NOBODY moves, this really grips my poop! Roundabouts, as used in the UK, maintain the flow of traffic by filtering. All-way 4-ways slow everything down, particularly in rush hour and in towns.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

sorbz62 said:


> This is what really, really, REALLY grips my shit (as we say in the UK) about bikes in Canada - i have been riding for 30 years in Europe, where filtering between lanes (lane splitting??) is accepted and the reason why laods of guys ride bikes. Why the fuck would you buy a bike and then sit in lane behind all the tin cans on the freeway??? I saw a guy on the QEW sat in gridlock on his Harley and wound my window down, asking him why he didn't just ride between the cars and he gave me a 'I have no idea what you are talking about' look! You are sheeple, people!
> 
> This is why I haven't bought a bike here, even though I love them.
> 
> ...


Problem with white lining (lane splitting) at least in B.C. are the undue care and attention/dangerous driving tickets.....used to be $135 and 2 points, not too sure what they are now. Not too sure what the charge is in albertia but it's probably steeper than B.C.. To me not having a bike because you can't white line is not a good reason to not have a bike.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

sorbz62 said:


> ...... Oh and when I stop at a 4-way and NOBODY moves, this really grips my poop! Roundabouts, as used in the UK, maintain the flow of traffic by filtering. All-way 4-ways slow everything down, particularly in rush hour and in towns.


Except for the double mini roundabout which rules even the Transport ministry in the UK doesnt understand............


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Interesting to see the sense of entitlement lane splitters seem to have. Me first. I don't have to wait in line like you cagers......


I don't share your sentiments and I sure as F%$k don't want you scraping your motorcycle between anther car and mine.

I don't expect some A-hole to come sliding between lanes of traffic. If I happen to change lanes or move over to avoid a pothole and you happen to clip me you'd better have good insurance.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2015)

The only time I did that was when the Jays were still playing
at the CNE. With buddy on the back, we'd go down to the
game (even rode through the curb stones and parked in the
player's lot). On the way home, the Lakeshore was always
at a standstill. Luckily, no one opened their door.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I think we found why the Shiites and Sunnis hate each other. One of them must have lane split their camel between 2 others. "Go back to Mecca, ya fuckin moron."...........


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## sorbz62 (Nov 15, 2011)

Milkman said:


> Interesting to see the sense of entitlement lane splitters seem to have. Me first. I don't have to wait in line like you cagers......
> 
> 
> I don't share your sentiments and I sure as F%$k don't want you scraping your motorcycle between anther car and mine.
> ...


That's because of the way you have been educated on driving over here. That's the way it is here and there it's right, no? Cars in the UK often pull over when they see a bike filtering through the traffic. 

What I have seen (as a qualified Police Class 1 driver and Close Protection Defensive driving instructor) is a general lack of awareness over here in Canada compared to in Europe, no lane discipline and definitely no usage of turn indicators.


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## Judas68fr (Feb 5, 2013)

I'm not saying everybody is the same, but I've never seen so many bad drivers than in Canada/US (and I've been driving in Italy! Those guys are supposed to be the worst!)

I agree with Sorbz: I've never experienced so many dangerous situations on roads since I moved to Canada, being highways, with trucks driving crazy fast (I'm sorry, but IMHO trailers shouldn't be allowed to drive at the same speed as cars, both for environmental and safety reasons) or people hogging to the left and changing lanes without checking the dead angle, or in town. I feel a lot safer on unlimited portions of the german highway than on the 401 (and it can be stressful, especially when somebody hits the brakes)...

I used to bike a lot in France (over 5000km a year, most of it during summer), and bike occasionally here in Kingston (less than 500km a year, for 2 years), and have had way more dangerous situations on the road here than during all the time I rode my bike in France (some a-holes just don't understand that they have to share the road with bikes)..

And I'm not talking about the way some people park their cars (if I want to laugh I just have to watch somebody do a parallel parking on the campus)...

But the thing is that in Europe you see way more police controls on the roads, being speed or other infractions (there are helicopters patrolling over certain highways portions to check distances between vehicles and people staying in the left lane for no reason), random alcohol controls, red lights etc...


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

sorbz62 said:


> That's because of the way you have been educated on driving over here. That's the way it is here and there it's right, no? Cars in the UK often pull over when they see a bike filtering through the traffic.
> 
> What I have seen (as a qualified Police Class 1 driver and Close Protection Defensive driving instructor) is a general lack of awareness over here in Canada compared to in Europe, no lane discipline and definitely no usage of turn indicators.


I've been educated on driving here and this is where I drive. I've been in lots of countries where lane splitting is the norm.

There are very few undamaged side mirrors on cars in Sao Paulo or Seoul I can tell you.

It's pretty much anarchy IMO.

No, you can have that. I figure bikes should follow the same rules as cars and pedestrians.


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

GuitarsCanada said:


> The biggest fools are the ones that can't stand being passed. I would be rich if I had a nickel for every moron I have had to play tag with for 100 kms.


Try driving a mini van. The Albertian Pickup crowd real hate being overtaken by a minivan! But the whole "my 104 in a 100 zone" being too slow bugs be. As for the 95 in a 100 zone? Stay right!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Judas68fr said:


> I'm not saying everybody is the same, but I've never seen so many bad drivers than in Canada/US (and I've been driving in Italy! Those guys are supposed to be the worst!)
> 
> I agree with Sorbz: I've never experienced so many dangerous situations on roads since I moved to Canada, being highways, with trucks driving crazy fast (I'm sorry, but IMHO trailers shouldn't be allowed to drive at the same speed as cars, both for environmental and safety reasons) or people hogging to the left and changing lanes without checking the dead angle, or in town. I feel a lot safer on unlimited portions of the german highway than on the 401 (and it can be stressful, especially when somebody hits the brakes)...
> 
> ...


Again, I cannot emphasize enough that the "style" of driving we tend to experience is a function of the driving contexts that so many operate in these days, relative to 50 years ago:
- denser traffic (more cars on the same roads) and more drivers (dad, mom, and junior are driving to work/school in their own vehicles)
- longer daily commutes (StatsCan keeps data on this) due to more people living in bedroom communities
- more unpredictable driver behaviour stemming from greater vehicle mobility; you can bet those battleship-sized 1968 Buicks did NOT weave in and out of lanes like drivers of compacts and subcompacts can do
- signage and traffic-control measures that are more relevant to 1965 than to 2015
- generally higher speeds
- generally greater driver impatience

I strongly doubt that much data exists, since we didn't necessarily know at the time it would be useful to acquire, but I'd be curious to see what percentage of daily driving was done on higher-speed thoroughfares and highways, by urban drivers 50 years ago, compared to now. Strikes me that if the brunt of one's daily driving is done at speeds >80-90kph, that tends to engender a different approach to driving behaviour and expectations than doing most of your daily driving at school-zone speeds.

What I've noticed is that, as the larger urban areas get bigger, driving gets worse, more impetuous, less considerate, more impatient, and ruder. I chalk it up to the changing factors I note above. The more spread out cities become, and the more we stuff our roads with vehicles, because it is the only way to efficiently get from whatever godforsaken suburban development you can afford to live in, to wherever your job/school/shopping destinations are, the more challenging the drivingconditions become, and the more it tends to interfere with our ability to be pleasant, thoughtful, considerate, patient.

years ago, there was a surfeit of research looking at the effects of overcrowding, generally involving large colonies of mice. We'd let them breed like crazy, without allowing them to spread out, and then looking at physical consequences; tumours, glandular issues, aberrant behaviours, etc. What we complain about now, is really an analog of those overcrowding studies, except on the roads. If you want better driver behaviour, keep your cities small enough, dense enough, and provide good transit planning so that the number of vehicles declines, rather than increases. If you let housing developers run the show, such that cities sprawl too far and wide, then expect driver behaviour to get even worse than it currently is.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> I've been educated on driving here and this is where I drive. I've been in lots of countries where lane splitting is the norm.
> 
> There are very few undamaged side mirrors on cars in Sao Paulo or Seoul I can tell you.
> 
> ...


So places have no lines on the road. I will not be visiting those places.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> So places have no lines on the road. I will not be visiting those places.


The lines are there, but people completely ignore them.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mhammer said:


> Years ago, there was a surfeit of research looking at the effects of overcrowding, generally involving large colonies of mice. We'd let them breed like crazy, without allowing them to spread out, and then looking at physical consequences; tumours, glandular issues, *aberrant behaviours*, etc.


I found this in Wiki..very interesting...and scary! 

*Mouse experiments[edit]*


John Calhoun with mice experiment.​
In the early 1960s, the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH) acquired property in a rural area outside Poolesville, Maryland. The facility that was built on this property housed several research projects, including those headed by Calhoun. It was here that his most famous experiment, the mouse universe, was created.[SUP][1][/SUP] In July 1968 four pairs of mice were introduced into the Utopian universe. The universe was a 9-foot (2.7 m) square metal pen with 54-inch-high (1.4 m) sides. Each side had four groups of four vertical, wire mesh “tunnels.” The “tunnels” gave access to nesting boxes, food hoppers, and water dispensers. There was no shortage of food or water or nesting material. There were no predators. The only adversity was the limit on space.

Initially the population grew rapidly, doubling every 55 days. The population reached 620 by day 315, after which the population growth dropped markedly. The last surviving birth was on day 600. This period between day 315 and day 600 saw a breakdown insocial structure and in normal social behavior. Among the aberrations in behavior were the following: expulsion of young before weaning was complete, wounding of young, inability of dominant males to maintain the defense of their territory and females, aggressive behavior of females, passivity of non-dominant males with increased attacks on each other which were not defended against. After day 600, the social breakdown continued and the population declined toward extinction. During this period females ceased to reproduce. Their male counterparts withdrew completely, never engaging in courtship or fighting. They ate, drank, slept, and groomed themselves – all solitary pursuits. Sleek, healthy coats and an absence of scars characterized these males. They were dubbed “the beautiful ones.” Breeding never resumed and behavior patterns were permanently changed.​The conclusions drawn from this experiment were that when all available space is taken and all social roles filled, competition and the stresses experienced by the individuals will result in a total breakdown in complex social behaviors, ultimately resulting in the demise of the population.
Calhoun saw the fate of the population of mice as a metaphor for the potential fate of man. He characterized the social breakdown as a “second death,” with reference to the “second death” mentioned in the Biblical book of Revelation 2:11.[SUP][1][/SUP] His study has been cited by writers such as Bill Perkins as a warning of the dangers of the living in an "increasingly crowded and impersonal world."[SUP][2]

Cheers

Dave[/SUP]


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## sorbz62 (Nov 15, 2011)

Milkman said:


> I've been educated on driving here and this is where I drive. I've been in lots of countries where lane splitting is the norm.
> 
> There are very few undamaged side mirrors on cars in Sao Paulo or Seoul I can tell you.
> 
> ...


You are missing the point and have been brainwashed. The reason you ride a bike in the first place is for the freedom and flexibility NOT to sit on the QEW in a row of cars. Maybe the problem here is that bike riders have also been brainwashed by the arcane rules and regulations and also drive badly, are a danger to other road users and cause many of these accidents. 

Damaged side mirrors are not caused exclusively by bikes filtering, I can assure you but by even worse drivers.

You want to try driving in Cairo or Riyadh or Tunis or ...... Etc. 

I can categorically say that allowing bikes to filter will increase the flow of traffic, get more onto bikes and definitely not increase the number of broken wing mirrors.


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## JHarasym (Mar 27, 2007)

sorbz62 said:


> ...I can categorically say that allowing bikes to filter will increase the flow of traffic, get more onto bikes ....


And increase the burden on the health-care system.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

sorbz62 said:


> You are missing the point and have been brainwashed. The reason you ride a bike in the first place is for the freedom and flexibility NOT to sit on the QEW in a row of cars. Maybe the problem here is that bike riders have also been brainwashed by the arcane rules and regulations and also drive badly, are a danger to other road users and cause many of these accidents.
> 
> Damaged side mirrors are not caused exclusively by bikes filtering, I can assure you but by even worse drivers.
> 
> ...


I'm happy to drive in Canada where we understand that lane splitting is rude, dangerous and selfish.

I haven't been brain washed any more than you have.

Just because I don't agree with your personal views about s subject doesn't mean I'm deluded.

Your perception and sense of entitlement (I'm on a a bike so I deserve special priveledges) is obvious


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

Enlightenment in BC:

http://drivesmartbc.ca/lanes/left-lane-blockers

The new rules say that if you're not ACTIVELY PASSING someone, you must pull over for faster-moving traffic, and they offer a limited set of circumstances in which it's OK to be in the left lane. Note djmarcela, the law does NOT say, "... unless you're doing the posted speed limit".

Self-righteous prigs who think they're doing a service to mankind by driving at no more than the posted speed limit and making sure that others do the same are - along with simply-inattentive drivers - the cause of this problem and the cause of accidents as traffic piles up behind them.

The de facto speed limit in Ontario on 400-series highways is 120 km/hr. The ONLY reason we don't have 120kmh as the posted speed limit is politics. I've been in on the discussions, believe me! Environmental groups and others imagining themselves to be community-minded salivate at the prospect of tilting at the windmill, and raising money and awareness for themselves, if any politician has the guts to raise speed limits to what they should reasonably be given our well-designed highways and today's safe cars.

In most U.S. states the posted speed limits on similar highways are typically 70mph (113kph) and in some states 75mph (121kph). In the few states where the limit is not posted that high, drivers routinely drive 5-10mph faster as they do in Ontario, without interference from police as is the case in Ontario. In the states with the high speed limits, drivers don't TYPICALLY drive more than a few mph above the limit - enforcement seems to be rigorous and strict. In fact, of all U.S. states only Illinois and Oregon stand out in my own experience as states with ridiculously-low 55-60mph speed limits (like ours!) and apparently-strict enforcement of them.

Further, about a dozen U.S. states already have left-lane laws like those just enacted in B.C. It is often NOTICEABLY easier to move through these states, setting a safe speed on the cruise control and maintaining it without much interference from inattentive or priggish left lane HOGS. Hurray for B.C., let's hope it spreads!

Finally to mhammer's point that if he's keeping up to the traffic in the left lane then why should he inconvenience himself by pulling over? Why? Because not doing so usually makes him part of the problem too, providing a buffer between himself and the person causing a slowdown ahead of him. The long lines of cars following a HOG and waiting politely (and too-often vainly) for him/her to pull over become a problem too, because at some point someone is going to do something dumb to get by them and past the HOG. Self-righteous prigs will say that's the dumb guy's problem, but he could make it a problem for everyone nearby and following.

How many calories does it take to pull over, and let someone moving faster (and maybe more-aggressively) get by and perhaps get the HOG's attention and clear the traffic plug? Why not just let him go by? Call the police if he's being a serious threat, but more likely he'll accomplish what other HOG followers are not accomplishing and restore the flow of traffic.

Unless he meets djmarcela, of course, who will be proud of his accomplishment in slowing that guy and everyone else behind him. There are no words... well... no polite words, for that.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

boyscout said:


> Enlightenment in BC:
> 
> http://drivesmartbc.ca/lanes/left-lane-blockers
> 
> ...


I'm innocent, I tell you!!! I'm innocent!!! I have been reading this thread with interest but this is my first post. You must be thinking of the one armed man?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

sorbz62 said:


> I can categorically say that allowing bikes to filter will increase the flow of traffic, get more onto bikes and definitely not increase the number of broken wing mirrors.


Nah. I think what you'll end up with is more dead cyclists. I ride a bicycle in the warmer months for a bit of exercise and relaxing in the outdoors. I mostly just bike around my neighborhood. If I venture out on to the busier main roads in my neighborhood I stay on the sidewalk when possible. I'm not going to exercise my right to the road at the expense of my health. Too many crazy drivers that could care less.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

bluzfish said:


> I'm innocent, I tell you!!! I'm innocent!!! I have been reading this thread with interest but this is my first post. You must be thinking of the one armed man?


Garsh!! Sorry bluzfish!! I read the thread about 48 hours ago and thought I remembered you as the clay-footed holdout scolding everyone else to slow down and follow the speed limit. 

I guess I was driving too fast! My humble apologies; I've corrected my post.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

boyscout said:


> Garsh!! Sorry bluzfish!! I read the thread about 48 hours ago and thought I remembered you as the clay-footed holdout scolding everyone else to slow down and follow the speed limit.
> 
> I guess I was driving too fast! My humble apologies; I've corrected my post.


Understandable mistake. All us Edmontonians look alike online. :congratulatory:


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## sorbz62 (Nov 15, 2011)

Milkman said:


> I'm happy to drive in Canada where we understand that lane splitting is rude, dangerous and selfish.
> 
> I haven't been brain washed any more than you have.
> 
> ...


No, you understand that not filtering is the rules here. Who the hell wants to buy a bike and sit in rows of traffic? It is not rude, it is illegal and you, as a car driver, are expressing your opinion based on the law and the fact it pisses you off when you see a bike doing it. 

In the UK, France, Germany ........ filtering does not result in increased accidents - because it is accepted and within the rules there. Car drivers know this and everyone drives accordingly.

I will agree to disagree with you but I will definitely state that the standard of driving here in Canada is very much worse than in Europe.

Finally, what sense of entitlement? I am merely stating that I think the law should be changed to allow filtering. Get off your high horse, mate.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

sorbz62 said:


> No, you understand that not filtering is the rules here. Who the hell wants to buy a bike and sit in rows of traffic? It is not rude, it is illegal and you, as a car driver, are expressing your opinion based on the law and the fact it pisses you off when you see a bike doing it.
> 
> In the UK, France, Germany ........ filtering does not result in increased accidents - because it is accepted and within the rules there. Car drivers know this and everyone drives accordingly.
> 
> ...


Sounds to me like your horse is every bit as high as mine mate.

And I've been to Europe.

I think you're nuts if you think driving is more civilized there. Too many cars and not enough open road.

I'll take Canada anyday.


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## sorbz62 (Nov 15, 2011)

guitarman2 said:


> Nah. I think what you'll end up with is more dead cyclists. I ride a bicycle in the warmer months for a bit of exercise and relaxing in the outdoors. I mostly just bike around my neighborhood. If I venture out on to the busier main roads in my neighborhood I stay on the sidewalk when possible. I'm not going to exercise my right to the road at the expense of my health. Too many crazy drivers that could care less.


I was talking about motorcycles actually! Lol. 

.. And the phrase is 'I couldN'T care less' - if you could care less, then that means you care a little about it! This is one incorrect use of an English phrase that really bugs me when I hear it!


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

So I looked up some numbers:

The average lane width on a North American highway is 12 feet. The max width of a tractor trailer is 8.5 feet. If the truck rides dead center there is 1.75 feet clear on each side - or 3.5 feet between 2 transports driving side-by-side. Motorcycle handlebars are about 3 feet, tip-to-tip. Doing my math here, that gives a clearance of 3 inches on each side of the motorcycle as he filters his way between 2 transports.

What speed would you like to be doing this at?


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

The bottom line is that the majority of drivers aren't good enough to let bikes squeeze between them around here. If I had confidence in the collective driving ability of Ontarians, I'd say go for it.

People around here are jealous too. A good chunk of people would grit their teeth while you passed them in stopped traffic. F'n haters.


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## sorbz62 (Nov 15, 2011)

allthumbs56 said:


> So I looked up some numbers:
> 
> The average lane width on a North American highway is 12 feet. The max width of a tractor trailer is 8.5 feet. If the truck rides dead center there is 1.75 feet clear on each side - or 3.5 feet between 2 transports driving side-by-side. Motorcycle handlebars are about 3 feet, tip-to-tip. Doing my math here, that gives a clearance of 3 inches on each side of the motorcycle as he filters his way between 2 transports.
> 
> What speed would you like to be doing this at?


I seriously don't think you understand what filtering is .... It is not filtering between traffic at speed, inotherwords it is not squeezing between 2 lanes of traffic moving at 80+ kph. It is filtering between lanes that are stationary, like in grid lock motorways or at sets of lights or at slow speeds in heavy traffic. If I was in the UK and on a 4 lane (2 each way) road with traffic moving at the limit, I would stay in lane until I had an opportunity to overtake. When the traffic stopped at the enxt set of lights, I would filter through to the front. Everyone does it, it is legal and accepted by all road users.

You may be right though - with the standard of driving here, I wouldn't even do that!

Oh yes and it's all about jealousy - the bastards would try and knock you off here for even attempting to do something they couldn't!


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

[video=youtube;ILc0cYkKqFs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILc0cYkKqFs[/video]


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

boyscout said:


> The new rules say that if you're not ACTIVELY PASSING someone, you must pull over for faster-moving traffic, and they offer a limited set of circumstances in which it's OK to be in the left lane. Note djmarcela, the law does NOT say, "... unless you're doing the posted speed limit".
> 
> Self-righteous prigs who think they're doing a service to mankind by driving at no more than the posted speed limit and making sure that others do the same are - along with simply-inattentive drivers - the cause of this problem and the cause of accidents as traffic piles up behind them.
> 
> Unless he meets djmarcela, of course, who will be proud of his accomplishment in slowing that guy and everyone else behind him. There are no words... well... no polite words, for that.


I'd forgotten about this thread, and came back to look in and see how the fur was flying.
Interesting that I've been misunderstood.

I never said I drove in the left lane at 100kph
I said the speed limit is 100kph for all the lanes. I even mentioned it might be impractical. and that drivers need to slow down and it would actually be safer
not once did I say it was ok to cruise the left lane.

Even in BC the new law states the lane occupancy, the fact of the speed limit still applies to all lanes.

Whether you like it or not you should not be driving over 100kph, regardless of the lane, regardless of your passing or not.

I really suggest you learn to bloody well read before ASSuming something, Because your ASSuming is really not all that bright.

ahh screw this........




Pull your head out of your ass and learn to GD well read.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

bzrkrage said:


> Try driving a mini van. The Albertian Pickup crowd real hate being overtaken by a minivan! But the whole "my 104 in a 100 zone" being too slow bugs be. As for the 95 in a 100 zone? Stay right!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Try driving a 1000 lb motorcycle. You get fools who just love to sit on your tail light. The same fools pull the same stunt on semis. It's always fun to bug them until they finally blow by you.....Innisfail overpass is a good spot, same with where 2a joins 2 just north of Ardrie. I've seen 15 or 20 cars sitting there getting papered.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> So I looked up some numbers:
> 
> The average lane width on a North American highway is 12 feet. The max width of a tractor trailer is 8.5 feet. If the truck rides dead center there is 1.75 feet clear on each side - or 3.5 feet between 2 transports driving side-by-side. Motorcycle handlebars are about 3 feet, tip-to-tip. Doing my math here, that gives a clearance of 3 inches on each side of the motorcycle as he filters his way between 2 transports.
> 
> What speed would you like to be doing this at?


Exactly. 

I din't give a crap how entitled someone thinks they are to getting where they're going more quickly than those of us following the rules.

If you scrape my car doing dumb assed selfish shit, I won't react politely.

The lines on the road are there for ALL drivers. Follow them. It has nothing to do with the skill of drivers here.

We just have better manners.


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## sorbz62 (Nov 15, 2011)

Milkman said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I din't give a crap how entitled someone thinks they are to getting where they're going more quickly than those of us following the rules.
> 
> ...


Again, you are misunderstanding what is being said here.

It's got nothing to do with entitlement! If it is within the rules to filter, then it is OK. It is illegal here and I am questioning that. You are getting all passive-aggressive, which is what I have witnessed from many drivers here in Canada......

"This is my (left) lane. I am doing the limit. Anyone else better watch out as I am a hardass!"

You won't react politely? In what way? Will you shout at me? Will you knock me off my bike? Will you try and punch me? You are getting me all exited as I've not had a good rumble in a while! Hahaha!

Can we have comments from some bikers here about their opinions.


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## sorbz62 (Nov 15, 2011)

Check out these YT videos showing lane filtering in London, UK. Notice how the cars are allowing the motorcyclist to pass, as everyone knows the rules. This is in a city with a much greater traffic density than most of Canada, probably all of it except the GTA at rush hour.

There is nothing about entitlement or scratching wing mirrors. Also notice how the bikers stay in lane when it is not safe to filter.

Of course, I am not saying there are no accidents but just that allowing filering/ lane splitting here in Canada would make motorcycling much more attractive - only during summer months though!!

They are quite long videos, so watch some or all of them for your interest.

[video=youtube_share;YyMGoiw-4M4]http://youtu.be/YyMGoiw-4M4[/video]

[video=youtube_share;1SX0ouGKoWE]http://youtu.be/1SX0ouGKoWE[/video]


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

I watched up to about the 6 min mark in that first vid.

That guy is suicidal, not to mention idiotic. There were 100 spots where he could have been clipped by someone entering the roadway. He's way too close to some vehicles (mirrors), and using (OK, we know neither the limit nor how fast he was going, this isn't about speeding per se) too much speed. He goes into multiple turning lanes but doesn't turn.

Nope, not good practice at all. Also note he says the cops could have pulled him over in multiple spots, but usually don't. So he's acknowledging breaking the rules of the road.


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## sorbz62 (Nov 15, 2011)

I guess I'm banging my head against a brick wall here, so I'm cutting away from this thread. Continue to sit in lane on your bikes here in this great country. See ya!


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

sorbz62 said:


> I seriously don't think you understand what filtering is .... It is not filtering between traffic at speed, inotherwords it is not squeezing between 2 lanes of traffic moving at 80+ kph. It is filtering between lanes that are stationary, like in grid lock motorways or at sets of lights or at slow speeds in heavy traffic. If I was in the UK and on a 4 lane (2 each way) road with traffic moving at the limit, I would stay in lane until I had an opportunity to overtake. When the traffic stopped at the enxt set of lights, I would filter through to the front. Everyone does it, it is legal and accepted by all road users.
> 
> You may be right though - with the standard of driving here, I wouldn't even do that!
> 
> Oh yes and it's all about jealousy - the bastards would try and knock you off here for even attempting to do something they couldn't!


But I do understand. I was merely pointing out that vehicles are much wider here. 36" is the average width of a set of handle bars - some can exceed 40" with grips and such installed. My GMC Jimmy is 7.5 feet wide between mirror tips. Some city lanes are only 10 feet wide. If I am not exactly in the center of my lane you will not pass without wiggling your bars or hitting my mirror.

Perhaps European math or physics is different than here in the colonies.


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## Option1 (May 26, 2012)

mhammer said:


> Do you find sometimes there can be long stretches of highway where, for some reason, the left-lane surface is in terrible shape, and the right lane much smoother, or the reverse? People end up driving in one lane or the other just to minimize the annoying bumps.


Ahhhh, the 416. Seems to be a fair bit better recently though.

Neil


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> But I do understand. I was merely pointing out that vehicles are much wider here. 36" is the average width of a set of handle bars - some can exceed 40" with grips and such installed. My GMC Jimmy is 7.5 feet wide between mirror tips. Some city lanes are only 10 feet wide. If I am not exactly in the center of my lane you will not pass without wiggling your bars or hitting my mirror.
> 
> Perhaps European math or physics is different than here in the colonies.


Everyone in Europe rolls in Hummers and custom Hogs..............


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

keto said:


> I watched up to about the 6 min mark in that first vid.
> 
> That guy is suicidal, not to mention idiotic. There were 100 spots where he could have been clipped by someone entering the roadway. He's way too close to some vehicles (mirrors), and using (OK, we know neither the limit nor how fast he was going, this isn't about speeding per se) too much speed. He goes into multiple turning lanes but doesn't turn.
> 
> Nope, not good practice at all. Also note he says the cops could have pulled him over in multiple spots, but usually don't. So he's acknowledging breaking the rules of the road.


If you watch some of the motorcycle crash videos, you'll see there are lots of accidents caused by this practice. 

I can see slipping by one or two cars at very slow speed to make a right turn when the traffic is backed up but to do it on a consistent basis is asking for trouble.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Personally I don't care if someone's careless or selfish habits cause their own injuries. I'm more concerned about them causing damage to other peoples' cars or injuries to other people.

Heck there are lots of times I could easily get where I was going faster by turning through a parking lot or making an illegal U-turn et cetera, et cetera.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Personally I don't care if someone's careless or selfish habits cause their own injuries. I'm more concerned about them causing damage to other peoples' cars or injuries to other people.
> 
> Heck there are lots of times I could easily get where I was going faster by turning through a parking lot or making an illegal U-turn et cetera, et cetera.


Unfortunately, those self-inflicted injuries end up costing all of us in medical and insurance costs.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Yesterday I had an adult on a bicycle cross the street right in front of me--without looking.
If I wasn't already slowing down for the stop sign ahead I could have hit him, but as it was I had to brake harder than normal.
The problem with that stop sign (And why it was foolish if he was relying on it) is that most people don't really stop at it.
About once a month a police car sits near there watching and the officer hands out tickets--so people stop for a day or two & then forget.
And the kicker is you can see the police car before you need to stop--so he's not hiding---he's in plain sight.
But no police car yesterday.

The Bicycle rider was on a vehicle & subject to the traffic laws.
And to make it worse he could have crossed about 15-20 feet away and actually gone through the intersection properly (I'd even have cut him some slack if he rode though the crosswalk)
But he had to cut through and not follow the road.

And he looked annoyed as he rode past me.

I could see him doing some of the stuff in posts above.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

It seems to me that as a driver trying to be aware of the traffic around you, you would not be expecting a bike to be zooming up beside you between the rest of the traffic, so you would be unable to anticipate it's presence for any normally safe traffic maneuvers you might make. Kind of like not expecting a cyclist or skateboarder speeding into your path as you move into the pedestrian crossing after you've checked for pedestrians while making a turn.

In short, it would seem to be a wise decision to always be predictable and conspicuous when in traffic. The practice of lane splitting is neither of those things.

Edit: I had to laugh after I clicked the submit button for my post and saw zontar beat me to the bicycle thing one post ahead of me - faster than lightening laristotle, that boy is!


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

sorbz62 said:


> Of course, I am not saying there are no accidents but just that allowing filering/ lane splitting here in Canada would make motorcycling much more attractive - only during summer months though!!
> 
> They are quite long videos, so watch some or all of them for your interest.
> 
> ...


There is still snow on the ground here and it is 5'c. The roads are clear and people are riding. If filtering were on the list of things to make motorcycling more attractive it would be on page 10 on the list, maybe page 15. As far as comments from bikers, sorbz62, you talking someone who owns a bike and rides it on the weekend when the weather is good in the summer? Then have a good weekend, warrior.....when the sun shines. If you want an old school biker comment, I've done what you call filtering.....both in stop and go traffic and in moving traffic. And I've found that it isn't any faster than staying in place, at least the stop and go style. So you move one or two car lengths up at a light....BFD. Then you get stuck behind 3 city buses and a school bus for 3 lights. 
Just out of curiosity sorbz62, what do you ride at the moment.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Another habit that bothers me is people who turn in the wrong lane at the intersection. When you turn left into a four lane road (two each way), you turn into the left land, not the right; when you make a right hand turn you turn into the right hand lane not the left. If you need to be in those lanes you turn in the proper lane and then signal and move over. I you swing wide and run into someone making the turn properly, you'll be paying for the accident.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Wow, I just watched that video on filtering. As a rider for the past 46 years I have to say that that was some of the most dangerous riding I've ever seen. That rider took a chance with every vehicle he passed - hundreds of them. When he rode down the median I was thinking that all it would take is one rock or piece of garbage on the road and he has no options for avoidance - except into oncoming traffic.

"brainwashed" my ass. "Filtering" is just pure stupidity.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Filtering, LOL.

That's putting a positive spin on it.

Anyone who wants to see what "filtering" looks like when it becomes a cultural norm should drive around Sao Paulo, Brazil for a few days.

Absolutely nuts.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Filtering motorcycle riders: This practice was developed to get rid of the stupid motorcyclists so the rest of us riders could ride in much safer conditions.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I still cant figure out why in my neighborhood, even though theres a perfectly good sidewalk, most people seem to walk/jog on the road. At night especially, theyre damn hard to see. 
Ive heard the "oh, asphalt is better for your joints than concrete sidewalks" argument....but still, im sure its a tragedy waiting to happen. if your joints are that bad, get a treadmill/elliptical or another form of exercise ie bike, swim.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Ha, ha, ha, woohoohoohoo, hee, hee, hee - never heard that convoluted logic before! I'm sure I would guffaw until my sides hurt if anyone ever tried that one out on me.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Diablo said:


> I still cant figure out why in my neighborhood, even though theres a perfectly good sidewalk, most people seem to walk/jog on the road. At night especially, theyre damn hard to see.
> Ive heard the "oh, asphalt is better for your joints than concrete sidewalks" argument....but still, im sure its a tragedy waiting to happen. if your joints are that bad, get a treadmill/elliptical or another form of exercise ie bike, swim.


That held true years ago when "running shoes" were nothing more than Keds but these days the technology used in the modern running shoe most likely absorbs the concrete pretty well. It's more likely that the "road-runners" want to avoid any un-eveness between sidewalk slabs. Perhaps they should try "filtering" too.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> Wow, I just watched that video on filtering. As a rider for the past 46 years I have to say that that was some of the most dangerous riding I've ever seen. That rider took a chance with every vehicle he passed - hundreds of them. When he rode down the median I was thinking that all it would take is one rock or piece of garbage on the road and he has no options for avoidance - except into oncoming traffic.
> 
> "brainwashed" my ass. "Filtering" is just pure stupidity.


I watched the first video, the second one wouldn't play. On the first video the riders are not filtering, slipping between cars in a stop and go situation, they are white lining.....which is completely different. If you watch over the front end of the bike when he's between the two way traffic he seems to be in the oncoming lane quite a bit. You could tell by the tone of his voice and what he says that 1) he's not completely sure about all he says, 2) a lot of what he and the other rider were doing could be taken as aggressive overtaking if so enforced and 3) he had more than a few close encounters.


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2015)

allthumbs56 said:


> It's more likely that the "road-runners" want to avoid any un-eveness between sidewalk slabs. Perhaps they should try "filtering" too.


or maybe it's that old rhyme, 'step on a crack, break your mother's back', going through their head.


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