# Another iPod Question



## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Hey All, I just purchased an 80gig Classic and i"m working on importing my cd's. Obviously I can't keep all this stuff on my hard drive so what happens when I back up? I set iTunes to not automatically update, but once everything is backed up and gone, how do I add to the thing and keep what's on it? Sorry if this is a stupid/redundant question, but I'm not a tecky at all and I'm on dialup so to find out on the apple site, I'd likely be pulling my hair out!


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2008)

If you remove music from iTunes it tries really hard to remove it from your iPod. You can't do a one way (iTunes -> iPod) sync. You can only sync both ways (iTunes -> iPod, iPod -> iTunes) so the next time you sync you'll end up losing the stuff on the iPod that's no longer registered in iTunes.

Such is the way it works I'm afraid. But it is a wonderfully seamless system. I went to buy the new David Byrnes/Brian Eno CD and they're using some new download service that gives them a bigger cut than iTunes but MAN I COULD NOT GET IT TO WORK. It would not let me log in to buy the tracks. iTunes + iPod == it just works.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

iaresee said:


> If you remove music from iTunes it tries really hard to remove it from your iPod. You can't do a one way (iTunes -> iPod) sync. You can only sync both ways (iTunes -> iPod, iPod -> iTunes) so the next time you sync you'll end up losing the stuff on the iPod that's no longer registered in iTunes.
> 
> Such is the way it works I'm afraid. But it is a wonderfully seamless system. I went to buy the new David Byrnes/Brian Eno CD and they're using some new download service that gives them a bigger cut than iTunes but MAN I COULD NOT GET IT TO WORK. It would not let me log in to buy the tracks. iTunes + iPod == it just works.


Well I guess I'm thinking that I have no intention of removing anything. It's essentially a drive for all (most) of my music I don't plan on updating much except for the occasional playlist (Party, dinner you know). Just wondering how to NOT keep everything (i doubt there's that much room) on my harddrive, but be able to keep what is initially on there and add to it. Does that even make sense? hang on I have to get another drinkll:food-smiley-004:


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2008)

Starbuck said:


> Does that even make sense?


Oh perfect sense. That was my round-a-bout way of saying: you can't. If it isn't on your hard drive you can't keep it on the iPod. Every time you sync to put new stuff on it'll take the stuff off that's been removed from the hard drive.

You could try sync'ing with something other than iTunes. Winamp maybe if you're on Windows? Or Audion 3 if you're on a Mac?


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Oh Man! That sucks! I kind of figured that was the case...


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Sorry Ian, but that's not quite right. I have tons of stuff on my iPod that's not on my hard drive. You can do it, it just takes some figuring.

First things first: if iTunes asks if you want to sync your library, always, always, ALWAYS say no. It will mention that your iPod is sync'd elsewhere, and want you to re-sync. Don't.

Once you're in iTunes, select "enable disk usage" and "manually manage music and videos" This will allow you to pick and choose what to put on there, and when you add new material, it ONLY syncs whatever is new and does not recheck. I have at least 3 different machines that I use to load mp3s onto my iPod, so believe me, it works and it's brilliant!

You can do lots with an iPod that you aren't supposed to be able to. Like downloading your entire iPod's content onto your buddy's computer. It's a pain in the ass to do, but it's possible, even though Apple didn't want to let you do it 

Try it out and if you get into any trouble, PM me.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Replace the firmware with Rockbox maybe? Then you're in charge instead of Apple.
Rip your CDs to ogg (or flac) while you're at it.
Buy a DVD burner and back up all your rips to disc.


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2008)

hollowbody said:


> Sorry Ian, but that's not quite right...Once you're in iTunes, select "enable disk usage" and "manually manage music and videos" This will allow you to pick and choose what to put on there, and when you add new material, it ONLY syncs whatever is new and does not recheck. I have at least 3 different machines that I use to load mp3s onto my iPod, so believe me, it works and it's brilliant!


Shows you how little I know. I didn't even notice you could sync like that. Cool. :food-smiley-004:


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

iaresee said:


> Shows you how little I know. I didn't even notice you could sync like that. Cool. :food-smiley-004:


No prob! Glad to help out. As much as I like Apple's slick little toy, I *don't* like the proprietary nature of it. Apple felt pressured into building little work-arounds into their product, but did not feel obliged to let their users know about them. Like I said, it's possible to take files off an iPod too, but holy crap is it ever frustrating.

My annoyance with Apple regarding the iPod started way back when their response to customers who had forked out 500 bucks or so (at the time) for their 1st generation iPods, upon finding out that their batteries no longer worked properly, were told to 'buy another one.' Nice. So yeah, glad to help in any way to make living with an iPod easier and better!


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

hollowbody said:


> No prob! Glad to help out. As much as I like Apple's slick little toy, I *don't* like the proprietary nature of it.


See above post. Rockbox is OSS, free and unencumbered. Plays ogg and flac out of the box.


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2008)

devnulljp said:


> See above post. Rockbox is OSS, free and unencumbered. Plays ogg and flac out of the box.


I used to run Rockbox on my iRiver and while better than the iRiver software it's not nearly as easy to use as as the default iTunes + iPod combination. I suffered from the typical OSS malady: lots of features and freedom, horrible UI. I installed in mainly because it let you queue up a dynamic playlist so we could play DJ on road trips. But the UI tripped up most passengers and made it dangerous to use while driving. Maybe it's made some big leaps in usability in the last 24 months?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Why can't you keep all you CDs on your hard drive? I guess it comes down to how many cds and how large your hard drive is, but ripping to iTunes doesn't take that much memory really, depending on the resolution you use.

I have around 150 cds on mine and I think it's less than 10 gig.

I also have the 80 gig iPod classic and I love it. I also have a bunch of DVD movies loaded on the thing.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

devnulljp said:


> See above post. Rockbox is OSS, free and unencumbered. Plays ogg and flac out of the box.


Meh, I don't really mind the limitation to mp3. I use Lame 3.97 with the following command line options "-V 0 --vbr-new --add-id3v2 --pad-id3v2 --ta "%a" --tt "%t" --tl "%g" --ty "%y" --tn "%n" %s %d" and it does just fine for me. 

I used ogg a lot in the past and didn't really see a huge difference between it and mp3, especially now when space is so cheap and the slight compression algorithm differences aren't as noticeable. FLAC I do love though, and that might sway me to try it, but I recently re-ripped my entire cd collection using the above encoding, and I _really_ don't want to have to do it again 



Milkman said:


> Why can't you keep all you CDs on your hard drive? I guess it comes down to how many cds and how large your hard drive is, but ripping to iTunes doesn't take that much memory really, depending on the resolution you use.
> 
> I have around 150 cds on mine and I think it's less than 10 gig.
> 
> I also have the 80 gig iPod classic and I love it. I also have a bunch of DVD movies loaded on the thing.


Yeah, I don't get that either. Unless your HDD is actually full, there's really no reason not to. A lot of people have a phobia about keeping stuff on there, like my parents who constantly call me to ask if they really need to keep something or if they can delete it (nevermind the whole delete vs. uninstall hilarity).

As long as you have about 10-15% free for performance and defragging reasons, you should be fine. Right now I have 21,347 music files on my computer and they only take up 110 GB of my 500 GB external drive. All the episodes of Top Gear, Rome and Deadwood take up more than that alone! Ideally you should have 20+% free, but you can get away with slightly less.

Speaking of, it's defrag time.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

hollowbody;134763
Yeah said:


> Yeah Dh is a bit iffy about leaving the stuff on there. Ilikely have about 300 cd's that I'll rip for my iPod. LOVE the little gagets. I just love having so much so easily available. I will back up everything (of course) but I think I'll leave it all on the HD for the time being.
> 
> THanks for all the great info! I already have iTunes set to not automatically synch unless I prompt it. I was wondering how to manage adding new stuff and you guys have answered splendidly!


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Funny. I have a TB of extenal drives with (mostly) music ripped on it. 
I just did a quick count and there's 3112 directories, 34532 files in the music tree on one of those drives. I've also got spindles of DVDs with groups of CDs ripped to ogg or flac.
Sure beats the old days of walls of jewel cases, and the invariably misplaced CD  

I find mp3s often have a metallic highend warble, especially when you listen on headphones --- it's not as bad at higher bit rates of course, but ogg doesn't have that. 

The rockbox interface has improved a bit (but even the old one was infinitely better than what iRiver put on there in the first place). 
I find I have the same trouble with commercially developed interfaces that assume you're stupid and just get in the way (like the bloody search dog thing that's the default on XP!!)

The best combo for me was the old Rio Karma (but I broke it, and they went out of business so no replacement) and Amarok on the PC.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

When it comes to ripping there is only really one solution.

dbpoweramp

I wouldn't trust itunes, windows media player, winamp etc.

Secure rip is a must, the accurate rip database gives peace of mind, the tagging options are awesome and it can scan your cover art as needed at the same time.

It will rip to any format under sun with plug in codec packs.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

devnulljp said:


> Funny. I have a TB of extenal drives with (mostly) music ripped on it.
> I just did a quick count and there's 3112 directories, 34532 files in the music tree on one of those drives. I've also got spindles of DVDs with groups of CDs ripped to ogg or flac.
> Sure beats the old days of walls of jewel cases, and the invariably misplaced CD
> 
> I find mp3s often have a metallic highend warble, especially when you listen on headphones --- it's not as bad at higher bit rates of course, but ogg doesn't have that.


Definitely, and it sure helps when it's moving time too. I love the tactile aspect of liner notes and vinyl covers, but it's a heck of a lot of stuff to move or have taking up room.

As far as mp3s, I cannot stand listening to anything below 192 kbs, but I find VBR of 224 and above to be pretty decent. I can't say that I experience what you're talking about and I do most of my listening through a nearfield pair of B&Ws or my Sennheiser HD280s. Once I get me another couple 500GB or 1TB drives, then I will definitely re-rip everything to FLAC, but for now, I need to conserve some space.



Jeff Flowerday said:


> When it comes to ripping there is only really one solution.
> 
> dbpoweramp
> 
> ...


Yeah, iTunes and Winamp are stupid to rip with. I use Exact Audio Copy because I find it has the best secure ripping and the best error correction out there.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

hollowbody said:


> Yeah, iTunes and Winamp are stupid to rip with. I use Exact Audio Copy because I find it has the best secure ripping and the best error correction out there.


dbpoweramp is in the same league for secure rip and error correction, just a little more user friendly. You should give it a try you'll be pleasantly surprised.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2008)

hollowbody said:


> Definitely, and it sure helps when it's moving time too.


LOL! I packed my CDs when we moved from Toronto in Dell server boxes I snagged from work. Opps. Big mistake. They were some heavy ass boxes. I just finished re-packing them today for our move next friday. Nothing bigger than a 2 cu. ft. was used this time. Still heavy, but one person can manage them now.



> I love the tactile aspect of liner notes and vinyl covers, but it's a heck of a lot of stuff to move or have taking up room.


Try as I might I can't give that up. An hour wandering though a CD store wondering what lies behind those shiny covers is infinitely more pleasurable than any attempt to scan the iTunes store. Not to mention the mastering for iTunes is just out of freaking control. A "quiet moment" in a song now means fewer instruments are playing, not an actual change in volume.



> Yeah, iTunes and Winamp are stupid to rip with. I use Exact Audio Copy because I find it has the best secure ripping and the best error correction out there.





Jeff Flowerday said:


> When it comes to ripping there is only really one solution.
> 
> dbpoweramp
> 
> ...


Right, so I don't get these over sampling ripping programs. I just ripped Avalon to WAV using iTunes and using xACT (cdparanoia) and all the tracks have the same MD5 sums. The output is exactly the same. I don't have 'Use error correction' enabled in iTunes' ripping options.

So what exactly is it that you think is better when you use stuff cdparanoia?



devnulljp said:


> Sure beats the old days of walls of jewel cases, and the invariably misplaced CD


I like all the media on the wall. I miss it. I've been hauling around boxes of CDs for two years and next week (!) I get to finally unpack in our new home. Can't wait to wander across old jems I'd forgotten about. That, to me, is where my digital audio collection is missing: I rarely stumble on stuff in my digital archives. "Thumbing" through it just isn't the same.



> The rockbox interface has improved a bit (but even the old one was infinitely better than what iRiver put on there in the first place).


The only real gripe I had with the iRiver software was not being able to queue up multiple next plays in a dynamic play list. You could do one next song and that was it. I like being able to think of a song and queue it up and have it come up eventually. Makes road trips a heckuva lot more fun when you can pass the juke box around. The Rockbox stuff was crazy customizable and did have some cool skins.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

iaresee said:


> Try as I might I can't give that up. An hour wandering though a CD store wondering what lies behind those shiny covers is infinitely more pleasurable than any attempt to scan the iTunes store.
> The only real gripe I had with the iRiver software was not being able to queue up multiple next plays in a dynamic play list. You could do one next song and that was it. I like being able to think of a song and queue it up and have it come up eventually. Makes road trips a heckuva lot more fun when you can pass the juke box around. The Rockbox stuff was crazy customizable and did have some cool skins.


I get what you mean, but I"m pulling everything off the shelf and digging some dusty cd's. Since I listen to shuffle most of the time, I'll be hearing alot more of my library than normal... Can't wait!


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

iaresee said:


> Right, so I don't get these over sampling ripping programs. I just ripped Avalon to WAV using iTunes and using xACT (cdparanoia) and all the tracks have the same MD5 sums. The output is exactly the same. I don't have 'Use error correction' enabled in iTunes' ripping options.
> 
> So what exactly is it that you think is better when you use stuff cdparanoia?


Dude, you don't have to defend iTunes, it works for you, use it.

Since you asked:

I can put a scratch in a disc and get the same checksum from the corresponding wave files from two different programs. Comparing the checksum results on a wave file created from two different programs using the same drive isn't accurate. I sure hope you didn't actually think it was. It doesn't prove the validity of data transfer into the format of your choice.

With your checksum calculations, how did you verify that the data that is actually on the CD is what made it into the wave files?

Here is where dbpoweramp and EAC are better:

These all increase the probability of the data actually being read off the disc properly.
-They calculate proper drive offset.
-They do multi pass variable speed ripping
-They support c2 error pointers if the drive is capable of doing so.
-They support drive cache detection and disabling if need be.

Now the good stuff:

AccurateRip Database:
The fact that I know that the wave extracted has the exact same checksum that 4, 10, 16, 200 etc. other people using other drives got when they extracted the same song. I want to know which songs on which discs have a different check sum to the rest of the world. Then I can go ahead and do an audio verification to see if I can live with the glitches if any are actually audible.

Final stage:
To take it a step further, after the checksum on the wave has been compared to accuraterip and the corresponding output be it apple lossless or flac etc has been created, it is compared back bit for bit to the wave file to confirm the compression stage didn't introduce garbage.

I hope that answered your question.


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## Guest (Aug 31, 2008)

Jeff Flowerday said:


> Dude, you don't have to defend iTunes, it works for you, use it.


I'm not defending iTunes. I'm asking someone to explain what benefit you derive from ripping with dbpoweramp or xACT (or anything else that uses cdparanoia-style oversampling).



> I can put a scratch in a disc and get the same checksum from the corresponding wave files from two different programs. Comparing the checksum results on a wave file created from two different programs using the same drive isn't accurate. I sure hope you didn't actually think it was. It doesn't prove the validity of data transfer into the format of your choice.


Accurate? Of course it is. A bit-wise diff also produces no differences for my files. The data files are bit-for-bit the same. One was ripped fast, one took 3x's as long. I'm trying to understand why the 3x one is better. They produced the exact same result. What do you think the differences are?



> With your checksum calculations, how did you verify that the data that is actually on the CD is what made it into the wave files?


I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The data extracted, by both programs, was exactly the same. Bit for bit. That's all I *can* know unless I start comparing it to other people's rips of the same CD on different hardware. Is that what dbpoweramp does?



> Here is where dbpoweramp and EAC are better:
> 
> These all increase the probability of the data actually being read off the disc properly.
> -They calculate proper drive offset.
> ...


All of that stuff sounds great. In practice, how often does it need to be applied when you're ripping CDs? That Avalon disc was bought about 1989. Definitely one of the older CDs in my collection. And xACT didn't do any additional error correcting. It does all that stuff up there.



> The fact that I know that the wave extracted has the exact same checksum that 4, 10, 16, 200 etc. other people using other drives got when they extracted the same song. I want to know which songs on which discs have a different check sum to the rest of the world. Then I can go ahead and do an audio verification to see if I can live with the glitches if any are actually audible.


So it does compare my checksum against a central database? But if your checksum is different how to you know if you're copy is more accurate or less accurate than the one in the database? And if it's different how do you know it's not just one bit that got mis-read? How do you know it's worth your time to figure out what went wrong? All you know is you and someone else didn't get the precisely same result, but you don't know if it's worth worrying about.



> To take it a step further, after the checksum on the wave has been compared to accuraterip and the corresponding output be it apple lossless or flac etc has been created, it is compared back bit for bit to the wave file to confirm the compression stage didn't introduce garbage.


That's handy. In practice, how often has it shown you a bug in the lossless audio codec?



> I hope that answered your question.


Very well. Thank you.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

iaresee said:


> Accurate? Of course it is. A bit-wise diff also produces no differences for my files. The data files are bit-for-bit the same. One was ripped fast, one took 3x's as long. I'm trying to understand why the 3x one is better. They produced the exact same result. What do you think the differences are?
> 
> I'm not sure what you're getting at here. The data extracted, by both programs, was exactly the same. Bit for bit. That's all I *can* know unless I start comparing it to other people's rips of the same CD on different hardware. Is that what dbpoweramp does?


You are starting to see my point. With your wave to wave comparison you proved that the programs were creating the wave files the same. The missing parts to the equation are: 1) Is that what was on the CD? 2) Is that what was put into the lossless file? 3) Do those 2 wave files have the same clicks and pops because the drive and software didn't deal with the disc properly?



iaresee said:


> All of that stuff sounds great. In practice, how often does it need to be applied when you're ripping CDs? That Avalon disc was bought about 1989. Definitely one of the older CDs in my collection. And xACT didn't do any additional error correcting. It does all that stuff up there.


When configured that stuff is applied to every CD. These features are designed to ensure the data on the CD is what is being streamed to the program. Check out the hydrogenaudio audio forum. Some very interesting threads on drives and which are best at extracting audio from a CD.



iaresee said:


> So it does compare my checksum against a central database? But if your checksum is different how to you know if you're copy is more accurate or less accurate than the one in the database? And if it's different how do you know it's not just one bit that got mis-read? How do you know it's worth your time to figure out what went wrong? All you know is you and someone else didn't get the precisely same result, but you don't know if it's worth worrying about.


Yes it uses a central database. It tells you if your checksum matches the majority. If the majority (say 200 people) got the exact same checksum using different drives and even different sofware(EAC or dbpoweramp), you can feel confident what you are listening to is exactly how it was pressed to CD.

With checksum calculations it's impossible to tell if it's one bit or a million bits are off. But in most cases you can look at your CD and see a scratch. If you decide to worry about it is really up to you. I usually do some detailed listening and decide if I actually want to replace the CD or not.

dbpoweramp actually writes is results in tags in the files. So at any time you can go back and see the results. I've actually written a program that extracts the results and puts it in a database, so that I can log my audio varification on tracks. I have a huge library so I needed to keep track of this stuff.



iaresee said:


> That's handy. In practice, how often has it shown you a bug in the lossless audio codec?


I've ripped over 4000 CDs and it has a few times maybe 1 song in 150 CDs or so. It turned out the be an issue in my codec choice there seems to be a bug where a sample is cut from the end of the file. It turns out to be less that a millisecond, so I didn't worry about it.

Tagging becomes very important when your collection is that large. dbpoweramp takes the results from 4 sources and automatically chooses the results that are the most common.

So now you understand why all this is important to me, the volume of ripping I've done, I needed to really trust the results. Some of my CDs are in tough shape(stuff from my misguided youth or bought used), I've been able to get great rips from dbpoweramp. My earlier software choices didn't, they gave me clicks, pops, and white noise.

dbpoweramp only costs $40 and the developer has his forums where he answers questions and takes suggestions on how to make it better.

This all said, EAC or dbpoweramp won't run on a Mac unless you use bootcamp to run an OS of some use . Just kidding of course!

Jeff


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