# Difference between a .022uf and.047uf cap?



## Robert1950

With all other things being the same, what is the difference between a .022uf and .047 cap. To make it simple, one volume, one tone, three way switch. 1. with humbuckers. 2. with P90s. Would pot values figure into this? Thanks


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## DavidP

Definitely use .022 so your tone pot does not bleed off highs severely -- do it for both HBs and P90s. Definitely 500K (preferably above 500K measured vs. below) pots for HBs. You could try either 500K (my choice) or 250K for the P90s -- alot depends on the specific make of P90. I'd also recommend no-load tone pots with either pickup type.


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## NorlinNorm

Robert1950 said:


> With all other things being the same, what is the difference between a .022uf and .047 cap. To make it simple, one volume, one tone, three way switch. 1. with humbuckers. 2. with P90s. Would pot values figure into this? Thanks


The higher the cap value the darker the tone!...In the simplest terms!


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## greco

NorlinNorm said:


> The higher the cap value the darker the tone!...In the simplest terms!


Bingo!


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## Robert1950

How will that play out with 250k and 500k tone and volume pots?


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## Steadfastly

NorlinNorm said:


> The higher the cap value the darker the tone!...In the simplest terms!


When you say "darker" do you mean less treble and more bass?


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## NorlinNorm

Steadfastly said:


> When you say "darker" do you mean less treble and more bass?


So, the value of the cap determines whether or not you roll-off just the very top end (shrill) in basic terms.


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## Hammerhands

f=1/(2*pi*r*c)

The smaller the capacitor and/or resistor, the higher the frequency.


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## NorlinNorm

Robert1950 said:


> With all other things being the same, what is the difference between a .022uf and .047 cap. To make it simple, one volume, one tone, three way switch. 1. with humbuckers. 2. with P90s. Would pot values figure into this? Thanks


Actually, I probably should not comment on these technical inquiries however my limited understanding when choosing capacitors is the higher the cap value the darker the tone. I have used this as guidance on my tone journey and has served me well.

I do find this very topic extremely interesting and enjoy learning from forum members comments and perspectives...


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## Robert1950

So, two P90s, .022uf cap, 500k volume and tone pots (audio taper/linear???) too bright?? (I like some tonal range but do like to get a woman tone sometimes)


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## Granny Gremlin

About 0.025uF ( ba dum dum chsh).



NorlinNorm said:


> So, the value of the cap determines whether or not you roll-off just the very top end (shrill) in basic terms.


I think you mean the right thing, but the more accurate way to phrase it is that the cap value changes the corner frequency of the filter. That is the point t which the filter ( in the case of typical guitar tone controls, a first order LPF, or low pass filter aka high cut) starts to work, cutting 6 db per octave (that's what the first order part means- how aggressive or steep the cut is.

So a smaller value raises the corner frequency ( so you are only cutting the extreme top end) and a lower value lowers
the corner freq ( sometimes into the mids), above which the response is rolled off progressively more the higher you go.


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## Robert1950

Can you dumb this down a bit please?



Granny Gremlin said:


> About 0.025uF ( ba dum dum chsh).
> 
> I think you mean the right thing, but the more accurate way to phrase it is that the cap value changes the corner frequency of the filter. That is the point t which the filter ( in the case of typical guitar tone controls, a first order LPF, or low pass filter aka high cut) starts to work, cutting 6 db per octave (that's what the first order part means- how aggressive or steep the cut is.
> 
> So a smaller value raises the corner frequency ( so you are only cutting the extreme top end) and a lower value lowers
> the corner freq ( sometimes into the mids), above which the response is rolled off progressively more the higher you go.


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## NorlinNorm

Granny Gremlin said:


> About 0.025uF ( ba dum dum chsh).
> 
> 
> 
> I think you mean the right thing, but the more accurate way to phrase it is that the cap value changes the corner frequency of the filter. That is the point t which the filter ( in the case of typical guitar tone controls, a first order LPF, or low pass filter aka high cut) starts to work, cutting 6 db per octave (that's what the first order part means- how aggressive or steep the cut is.
> 
> So a smaller value raises the corner frequency ( so you are only cutting the extreme top end) and a lower value lowers
> the corner freq ( sometimes into the mids), above which the response is rolled off progressively more the higher you go.


These conversations can get complicated quickly, perhaps I should listen to my gut feelings more often and stay away!!
I do enjoy reading the knowledgeable members posts ,,,,,


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## Guest

Robert1950 said:


> Can you dumb this down a bit please?


Me too please. This always confused the shit out of me.










Robert1950 said:


> How will that play out with 250k and 500k tone and volume pots?


I had 250's as volume and 500's for tone on one of my P90 guits. I liked the roll off.
I can't quite recall, but I think the caps were 22's.
Sounded great though (Lindy Fralins).


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## NorlinNorm

laristotle said:


> Me too please. This always confused the shit out of me.
> View attachment 145041
> 
> 
> I had 250's as volume and 500's for tone on one of my P90 guits. I liked the roll off.
> I can't quite recall, but I think the caps were 22's.
> Sounded great though (Lindy Fralins).


Fralins!!!!!....very nice!


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## Adcandour

I'd say about .025uf


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## knight_yyz

Gibson uses .015 in a p90 guitar, at least that's how my Junior came. I switched it to .006 because I thought it was too dark with the tone knob at zero. If you watch the Lindy Fralin video about cap values you will see that a cap value can make a difference in tone with the tone pot at 10!


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## danielSunn0)))

For humbuckers, the pickup company Blk/Tri swear by .033 paper in oil caps and they even sell them, along with .022 & .047. 

PAPER IN OIL tone caps


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## Granny Gremlin

Robert1950 said:


> Can you dumb this down a bit please?


Sorry, there was a good one liner above that I thought took care of that: 



NorlinNorm said:


> The higher the cap value the darker the tone!...In the simplest terms!


Reading that back I see some people still have questions



Steadfastly said:


> When you say "darker" do you mean less treble and more bass?


So first things first, any passive tone circuit is cut only. There will never be more anything (except in relative terms, which may have been the meaning here, but so we're clear).

To rephrase the ..'darker...' line: : bigger cap cuts more of the spectrum.

What this means is that (see my previous post) the point at which the high end rolloff starts drifts downwards as you raise the cap value. The amount or rate of rolloff remains constant (assuming the tone pot doesn't move ), but as an example, a cap value of A would give you a rolloff that started at XHz, was -6db down at 2*X Hz and 12 db down at 4*XHz. A value of 2*A would start at 1/2*X, be 6 db down at X, , 12 at 2*X and 18 at 4*X . That's assuming max cut on the tone knob. 



NorlinNorm said:


> So, the value of the cap determines whether or not you roll-off just the very top end (shrill) in basic terms.


Yes, but that value would likely be smaller than 0.022uF for most pickups. Super small values are good for such utilitarian tone control - removing shrillness or excessive icepick type top end from the sound, as well as taming hiss or noise but will not do very much noticable on low to moderate settings because it's licking (random example pulled out of my anus) 2 db off 10kHz (there's not much up above that besides 'air'). Lower than that (cap value) point (depends on the pups; can't give you a universal value) will make it more musically useful because milder settings will make a noticable change. There's a balance to be struck, and to a point it depends on personal taste and what you use the tone knob for (noise control is valid if you like the pups pretty much full on otherwise), where the max cut is not too crazy dark/muddy but the bottom of the range is still useful.


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## greco

danielSunn0))) said:


> For humbuckers, the pickup company Blk/Tri swear by .033 paper in oil caps and they even sell them, along with .022 & .047.


Be careful...


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## troyhead

Unless you are going crazy with paper in oil or some NOS caps, they are usually dirt cheap. Buy a few capacitors, some alligator clips, and do your own experiments with different caps. As previously mentioned, the cap just cuts off highs, so you may find that higher value caps start cutting off highs very quickly, giving you a narrow useful region on your tone control. But with trying lower caps you can find something that will darken the tone just enough when you roll it back and allow a wider useful range on your tone knob. And _*where*_ in the tonal spectrum that happens can vary as well, so spending a few extra dollars on a few caps to try out in order to get a control that is actually very useful to you is well worth it.



knight_yyz said:


> Gibson uses .015 in a p90 guitar, at least that's how my Junior came. I switched it to .006 because I thought it was too dark with the tone knob at ten.


This seems weird to me. If the tone is all the way up to 10, I would think that the capacitor is basically out of the circuit altogether. The only frequency cut would be from the resistance of the tone pot itself, so if you went from 250k to 500k pots, that might brighten things up a bit. Or maybe you meant "with the tone knob at zero"?


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## Granny Gremlin

troyhead said:


> Unless you are going crazy with paper in oil or some NOS caps, they are usually dirt cheap. Buy a few capacitors, some alligator clips, and do your own experiments with different caps.


Do that anyway; then when you find the value you like, get the PiO version (or not - personally, not worth it and they don't last as long; they start leaking or even value drift over time vs modern poly film caps, which sound fantastic if not exactly the same- anything besides ceramic disk and electrolytic is fine; after that we get into voodoo territory - highly subjective to put it mildly; if you haven't tried a double blind test it's all in yer head - no exceptions, not because you have a bad ear; known psychological fact). The rolloff will be exactly the same if the cap value is the same (caveat - PiO caps have much larger tollerances than modern box films so the values will not be the same, but in most cases close enough.... in other cases far enough apart to make a noticable difference - to compare cap types you'd not only need to do it blind but also with caps of the exact same measured value).

All I know is a nice modern poly film cap will be 50c or even less (unless you buy it from a guitar store) and PiO is not $5 - 15 better to my ears. Some people just have too much money; I don't.


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## greco

troyhead said:


> Unless you are going crazy with paper in oil or some NOS caps, they are usually dirt cheap. Buy a few capacitors, some alligator clips, and do your own experiments with different caps. As previously mentioned, the cap just cuts off highs, so you may find that higher value caps start cutting off highs very quickly, giving you a narrow useful region on your tone control. But with trying lower caps you can find something that will darken the tone just enough when you roll it back and allow a wider useful range on your tone knob. And _*where*_ in the tonal spectrum that happens can vary as well, so spending a few extra dollars on a few caps to try out in order to get a control that is actually very useful to you is well worth it.


Wise advice here. IMO.

I can put a few new mylar caps ("plain Jane" caps) of typical guitar tone pot values in an envelope and send them to you. PM me if this interests you.


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## keto

I've built or modded at least a dozen guitars and never bothered to use upscale caps. In any sort of mix, be that recorded or live, you're ABSOLUTELY (yeah, I went there) NEVER going to hear a difference in cap type.

Higher cap (.047/.050) you're going to roll off more treble sooner. Useful in uber bright instruments.

I personally like .033 same as the pickup maker referenced above, and use them fairly universally.

With the tone pot rolled to 0, there should be no difference I believe - your 'woman tone' would be no (or extremely little) different using different caps. If anything, a little fatter with the bigger cap value.

Pots - 500K give you more range in smaller increments, and allow a higher pitched starting point. Rolled down to 0, essentially no difference. Thus why humbuckers, inherently darker, generally use 500K pots. Is what I use again almost universally. But if doing a Strat or single coil Tele, would at least consider 250K vol pots.


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## knight_yyz

troyhead said:


> This seems weird to me. If the tone is all the way up to 10, I would think that the capacitor is basically out of the circuit altogether. The only frequency cut would be from the resistance of the tone pot itself, so if you went from 250k to 500k pots, that might brighten things up a bit. Or maybe you meant "with the tone knob at zero"?


When my Volume is at 10 and the tone pot is not being used, it is also at ten. You roll the volume down to zero, therefore you roll the tone down to zero yes? As far as I am concerned, anything more than .015 is too dark. But that is my opinion. If you watch the Video, you will see when Lindy uses a .001 uf cap and it makes the bridge sound much different even with the tone pot wide open, so it is still part of the circuit and it is still doing something.


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## troyhead

knight_yyz said:


> When my Volume is at 10 and the tone pot is not being used, it is also at ten. You roll the volume down to zero, therefore you roll the tone down to zero yes?


Maybe... I'm no expert.  But if you roll your volume to 5, it's not like your tone is set to 5 at the same time. I know the volume knob itself turned down can cut off high end, which is why a treble bleed circuit is often added to combat this, but this is independent of the tone control. Or maybe it depends on whether you wired the pickup to the volume pot first or the tone pot first? But it doesn't make sense to me that if your tone is at 10 that the capacitor is doing anything, because it is virtually out of the circuit at that point, isn't it?


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## greco

troyhead said:


> But it doesn't make sense to me that if your tone is at 10 that the capacitor is doing anything, because it is virtually out of the circuit at that point, isn't it?


This is my understanding. I hope someone will clarify the electronics theory of this for us.


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## GTmaker

I prefer to use the analogy of an amplifier control...
Most amps have a Treble control along with Mid and Bass.
So when you turn down the Treble control on an amp, you are effecting a specific range of frequencies
that are associated with the Treble control. Turn that knob down and the volume on
that specific set of frequencies are turned down. Turn that knob up to 10 and all the frequencies get thru.

I see the same effect on a guitar tone control with the added feature that you can control the range of frequencies 
being effected just be changing the value of the capacitor.
If you want a small range of high end frequencies being effected, you install a low value capacitor.
If you want a bigger set of frequencies to be affected by the tone control, you install a larger value capacitor.
Once you lock in your high end range to be affected by choosing your capacitor,
your Tone knob becomes a volume control on that specific set of high end frequencies you have choosen.

thats the way I see it..
G.


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## greco

GTmaker said:


> I see the same effect on a guitar tone control with the added feature that you can control the range of frequencies


@GTmaker If your tone knob is at 10, is the capacitor doing anything?


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## keto

Yes. There is a VAST difference between wiring with no cap and with a cap. With no cap, your tone will be blisteringly bright....very close to wiring the pickup straight to the output jack (no tone pot, the pot has some influence here as well). The cap is more in effect with the tone pot up than it is with the tone pot down! Technically it might be the same net effect, but because of how it takes off top, you hear it more with the tone pot up.

^ so that's why it matters whether you use .001 .022 .047 .033 - it's always on. Use too big of a cap, you won't have enough highs, it will sound dull and flat. Go too small, it might be spikey and overly bright.


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## troyhead

keto said:


> Yes. There is a VAST difference between wiring with no cap and with a cap. With no cap, your tone will be blisteringly bright....very close to wiring the pickup straight to the output jack (no tone pot, the pot has some influence here as well).


I think removing the tone pot itself has more influence here than the cap, if we are talking about the pot turned all the way up to 10. For example, if you get a no-load tone pot, turning the pot just before the end will take out the effect of the cap, and then turning it to the end effectively takes the cap and tone pot out of the circuit creating the direct connection you described. In that case, the brighter sound will be from removing the variable resistor (the tone pot) from the equation, not the cap. Even with the tone out of the circuit, if you roll back the volume you will still notice some highs rolling off. Again, not an expert so there's a distinct possibility that I'm wrong, but this is what my testing has shown.

A bit off topic, but I do have a guitar where I can bypass the volume AND tone pots, and it is a bit brighter but not overwhelming. There is more of a volume jump than tone difference. I would use it more, except that I use my tone pot a lot and rarely have it at 10, so when the tone is rolled back there is quite a jump.

Back to the original point of the thread, I do find that the cap I like depends on the pickups and the position, thus the experimentation required. For a Tele with bright pickups and one tone control, I think I liked 0.022 best. For a 4-knob P90 guitar, I think I went with 0.015 for the neck and 0.022 for the bridge.


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## GTmaker

greco said:


> @GTmaker If your tone knob is at 10, is the capacitor doing anything?


The way I see it is that a capacitor cannot ADD frequencies....all it does is filter them out.
The same with a potentiometer....it cannot ADD volume , it can only decrease volume.
So if the pot is set to 10...the signal is bypassed from the circuit which means none if the signal is going thru the capacitor.
No signal.....No effect.
G.


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## knight_yyz

a tone pot doesn't work without a cap. And if you watched the video you can hear the difference when he uses a super small value


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## copperhead

On a les paul style guitar with 2 vol 2 tone .015uf for the Neck pickup & .033uf for the bridge pickup works quite well ( I use these values my self ) it's common for some venders selling these sets of the russian PIO caps ,with the same .015/.033 sets as they are usually cheaper than the same cap in the .022uf value . the reason is that most of the .022uf russian PIO caps are bought up buy Amp builders & Guitar modders & venders . which usually makes the .022uf k42y or k40y cost more .


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## knight_yyz

Should be. 015 at the bridge and. 033 at the neck..... If those are the values you chose


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## troyhead

knight_yyz said:


> a tone pot doesn't work without a cap. And if you watched the video you can hear the difference when he uses a super small value


I get that the cap values make a difference, but I haven't seen it when cranked to 10. In the video when Lindy switches cap values, he is playing around with the tone pot and it's not at 10 all the time. He doesn't compare different cap values with the tone knob at 10, and at about 8:00 in the video the other guy asks "If your tone is wide open, is your cap going to effect the sound at all?" to which Lindy says no.



knight_yyz said:


> Should be. 015 at the bridge and. 033 at the neck..... If those are the values you chose


I never thought about doing it that way until I watched the video. However, for my purposes the neck is already plenty dark, so I want my tone rolloff to be more subtle on the neck pickup, and thus the lower cap value like @copperhead suggested. I've gone so far as installing a TBX tone pot on one guitar so that if my neck pickup is still too dark even with the tone up to 10, I can go further and start rolling off the bass to clean things up a bit.

Anyway, as Lindy stated as well, do some experimentation. I honestly like my guitar more because I know I picked exactly the components inside because I tried a bunch out.


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## copperhead

.015uf for the neck & .033uf for the bridge . some find that you don't get enough roll off with a .022uf in the bridge & possibly too much when using .022uf in the neck . so in a guitar with seperate tone controls per pickup this .015/.033 combo works great . or try a few different values & go with what you like .


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## knight_yyz

do you actually play anything with the bridge pickup tone set at 0?


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## cdntac

keto said:


> Yes. There is a VAST difference between wiring with no cap and with a cap. With no cap, your tone will be blisteringly bright....very close to wiring the pickup straight to the output jack (no tone pot, the pot has some influence here as well). The cap is more in effect with the tone pot up than it is with the tone pot down! Technically it might be the same net effect, but because of how it takes off top, you hear it more with the tone pot up.
> 
> ^ so that's why it matters whether you use .001 .022 .047 .033 - it's always on. Use too big of a cap, you won't have enough highs, it will sound dull and flat. Go too small, it might be spikey and overly bright.



A friend was over today and wanted to put some different pickups in his 13 year old Epi LP. The stock pickups sounded kind of dull --- akin to a blanket over an amp is a good analogy.

After looking at it, I suggested we remove the tone caps and see what happens. I've done this on my semi-hollow LP and my Explorer. Each guitar sounded a bit more raunchier after doing so (imo).

However, with my early 70s LP, removing the tone cap resulted in a slightly too bright and shrill (imo) sound so I've left the caps on in that guitar.

The result with the stock Epi pickups having the .022 capacitors removed? The guitar sounded much more clear --- the "blanket over an amp" sound disappeared. The guitar sounded _really_ good. It sounded similar to my early 70s LP. 

Oddly enough, the removal of the caps had a much more noticeable effect on the Epi than with either of my Gibsons.


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