# can we discuss the events in the Middle East here...



## sneakypete (Feb 2, 2006)

or are we not permitted? Or will folks just refuse to offer opinions `cause it`s too hot a topic? 
I gotta know.


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

You can discuss anything you want in this section. Respect for all opinions is all that is required.


----------



## sneakypete (Feb 2, 2006)

cool...let`s see what happens then.


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I can tell you one thing. There is a guy I work with at GM in the states. He is originally from Lebanon. Most of his family is still over there. They are from one of the little towns that is seeing a lot of the action. I got talking to him about it a few weeks back. One of the interesting details is that he, nor most people over there (he claims) sees the hezbollah (or whatever the hell you call them) as terrorists. They see them as legitimate protectors of Lebanon. A legitimate political party. So if that is the case, and I have no idea if it is, then it's another vietnam.


----------



## sneakypete (Feb 2, 2006)

my understanding is...hezbollah was created to fight the Israelies when they occupied Lebanon more than 20 years ago. And it`s a bit foggy but...the Shabat Farms[sic?] I hear so much about...sounds like it`s occupied land that in fact belongs to Lebanon, I think if the Palestinian issue were handled better, things could go a lot better in the neighborhood... not perfect `cause this goes back what...thousands of years?
You know I met some Bulgarians here and during a conversation once a woman said to me...you Canadians are so lucky that you can all get along so well...I was thinking so, is it luck? Or are we just able to see beyond the religious or political?


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i have been trying to understand this for years. 

do the hamas, plo and hezbollah have legitmate grievances? if so, why have they not been addressed, and why does israel get a free pass as "the good guys"?

or, is israel truly blameless? is it possible that the hamas, plo and hezbollah simply hate them and want them destroyed for no reason whatsoever?

my suspicion is that there are no "good guys" in this conflict, and claims that one side is "more evil" than the other are, therefore, moot.

that said, i am determined to keep an open mind.

-dh


----------



## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

They get a free pass for the suffering in WW2. Personnaly, that cuts no ice with me. I think that this is the start of WW# and the Islamic whackos are not going to stop, ever. Call me a naysayer, but its going to get much worse before it stops. All it takes is Iran to lob a nuke, which they would do if they could.

CT.


----------



## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

Not taking any sides but Isreal walked out of Lebanon with a promise of peace in the past. The evacuated the gaza strip in hopes of peace. With the events that led up to this it seems as the Hezbollah were itching for a fight. The Hamas just moved there front forward and kept up there fight. So what gives??? I can understand Isreal being pissed off, and they have become more agressive because there getting it on two fronts. It's a scary place to be over there... and it's made it troublesome over here.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I think Israel is the bully in this case. If not for the backing of the US government they might take a slightly less "tough guy" posture with their neighbors.


Personally I'd like to see the West butt the heck out and let the Middle East settle their own affairs without our meddling.


Israel's reaction to the capture of a couple of soldiers is overkill in the true sense of the word. They're doing VERY little to gather support from the rest of the world.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

jroberts said:


> If you look at the history of the region, even just as far back as a hundred years or so, there really isn't any clear "bad guy" or "good guy" in this conflict. It's many shades of grey. The issues are far more complex than most pundits on either side of the issue would like us to believe.


...i have a feeling you're right. i don't like the smug self-rightneousness on either side. you defend the hamas, plo or hezbollah and you're anti-semetic. you criticize israel and you're pro-terrorist.

it does amaze me that cooler heads do not somehow prevail, but cooler heads and high testosterone levels are probably mutually exclusive.

its certainly interesting to live in an era when anyone that believes in peace and diplomacy is defined as naive, at best.

-dh


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

I am just curious as to what a country is supposed to do when rockets are being launched without even a specific target into their country though. I hate seeing any type of war, but what exactly are you supposed to do?


----------



## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I think the Isralies are brilliant. Its a country with elected officials and yet if you critisize them its because youre anti-Semetic. If only George Bush or Adoph Hitler could somehow brain wash the world like that, no one would ever critisize them. I also like their brilliance of hammering Lebannon and getting everyones eyes away from the Gaza Strip where they are doing daily rampages. The bombing of airports, and the highways will insure their tourism will flounder, and by hitting a few of the military targets, they might be able to coax the Lebannesse army into battle and then have an excuse to take over the entire country. These guys arent stoopid........


----------



## sneakypete (Feb 2, 2006)

and...Iran has rejected any kind of diplomatic solution to their uranium enrichment program , so will Israel stand idly by and let them develop an A bomb or will they succumb to Iran`s taunting and launch a pre-emptive strike which would certainly open the flood gates. But on the other hand...it`s been said Israel has the bomb, so I can understand the neighborhood wanting them as well you know, as a deterrent. 
I don`t know what the answer is, I just hate watching the kids caught in the middle, on all sides.


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*Evil is as evil does...*



Accept2 said:


> I think the Isralies are brilliant. Its a country with elected officials and yet if you critisize them its because youre anti-Semetic. If only George Bush or Adoph Hitler could somehow brain wash the world like that, no one would ever critisize them. I also like their brilliance of hammering Lebannon and getting everyones eyes away from the Gaza Strip where they are doing daily rampages. The bombing of airports, and the highways will insure their tourism will flounder, and by hitting a few of the military targets, they might be able to coax the Lebannesse army into battle and then have an excuse to take over the entire country. These guys arent stoopid........



The peoples in that part of the world seem worse than the Irish for holding grudges over centuries. Very complicated for someone in the West to try to figure out.

Still, some things stand out like sore thumbs to me. It seems that while Israel aims at rocket launchers and other military targets they often kill some nearby civilians as collateral damage. Even a UN rescue team has admitted that when they inspected the wreckage of a hospital in Lebanon they found the remains of a rocket launcher. Meanwhile Hezbollah launches hundreds of rockets per day SPECIFICALLY AT ISRAELI CIVILIANS and that is considered somehow proportionate "tit for tat".

Israel went into Lebanon and occupied it last time to prevent it from being used as a staging area to shoot at Israel. They eventually pulled out 'cuz the UN promised under Resolution 1559 to police the area and make sure that there would be no more rocket launches that land on the heads of civilian Israelis.

No policing was ever done and Hezbollah used the time to stockpile thousands more rockets and to hide the launchers inside Lebanese schools, hospitals and apartment buildings. Now they could stop the war in an instant by simply returning the two Israeli soldiers they kidnapped from within Israel after tunneling under the border. They choose instead to keep launching the rockets.

Has anyone ever heard of a Jewish suicide bomber blowing up a busload of civilian men, women and children?

At this stage of my life after hearing about such things for the over 40 years I've been mature enough to understand them I think listening to whose claims are right or wrong is often just a distraction. Evil is more clearly seen by deeds. The definition of a terrorist is one who deliberately targets civilians to achieve his political ends. This is quite different from civilian deaths from collateral damage from trying to stop attacks.

This is also why I cannot support the natives in Caledonia. I totally agree that they have been shafted for centuries over their land claims. The problem is that they are using the citizens of Caledonia as cannon fodder in a battle with the government. Their tactics dishonour their claims, in my opinion.

As for Hezbollah being supported by the majority of the Lebanese, how can one tell? Notice how their legitimate government has been very careful to distance themselves from Hezbollah's actions without actually accusing Hezbollah. This is only prudent. Hezbollah has not been elected by anybody and doesn't need to be. They have the biggest guns! If any Lebanese was foolish enough to critize them in front of a CNN camera they'd be dead before the day was out! They could oust the legitimate Lebanese government in less than an hour, if they choose to.

It doesn't matter if you believe that Israel is totally wrong. Why on earth would you expect someone to quietly stand there and let someone rain rockets down on their city streets and homes, FOR YEARS!!!???

Only a fool would be surprised if after repeatedly kicking a dog it finally bit him.

Hezbollah has stated for years that Israel should be wiped off the face of the earth. Never heard Israel make such a statement. Never seen Israel invade another country unless attacked first. We've seen many instances of other countries launching "first strike" wars on Israel. They send in their tanks and then after being beaten back they whine that Israel fought back "too hard!" Why didn't they just stay home in the first place?

In Israel there are many Arab citizens. Can anyone name any Arab country that has taken in the displaced Palestinians? Again, I judge by actions and not words.

There seems to be some kind of "lefty liberal" idea that in any fight both sides are equally right and no one is totally wrong. This seems completely loopy to me! If someone was firing rockets into my neighbourhood I couldn't care less about their politics. To me they would be evil incarnate.

And if someone was hiding rocket launchers in my kids' school to use them as human shields then the first dark night I'd be out throwing some Molotov cocktails at them for putting me and my family in such danger!

But hey, what do I know? I must be a running dog lackey of the bourgoisie for not believing everything I see on CBC NewsWorld...


----------



## Xanadu (Feb 3, 2006)

Here's another question. How did America's oil get under the middle east?


----------



## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

Hey Bill thanks for expanding on what I was trying to say earlier. Can only take so much until they have to fight back.


----------



## Tarl (Feb 4, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> The definition of a terrorist is one who deliberately targets civilians to achieve his political ends. This is quite different from civilian deaths from collateral damage from trying to stop attacks
> 
> In Israel there are many Arab citizens. Can anyone name any Arab country that has taken in the displaced Palestinians? Again, I judge by actions and not words.


Great post Wild Bill...not that I agree with you though. According to your definition of a terrorist would the Allied actions in WW2 of the fire bombing of European cities and the Atomic destruction in Japan be considered terrorism? One mans terrorist is anothers soldier/hero/freedom fighter and the winners always write the history books.
Also there are many Arabs living in Israel but from what I have seen and read they are treated as second class citizens at best and even sub human in the worst cases.
I do not believe there is any totally right or wrong side in any war. To me it is the greatest of human tragedies, but wars will probibly always be. Countries fight wars and they will do whatever it takes to win according to their strength, weapons etc. Unfortunatly this usually involves civilian deaths on both sides. With all the wealth of material and knowledge in this world you would think we could come up with ways to eliminate these conflicts but sadly I think it is part of our nature. To me the worst thing is how we in the west view these events as someone else,s problem unless it directly affects us such as 9/11 or even oil prices and economic fallout.
I grew up during the Vietnam years and sadly the recent Canadian deaths in this "war on terrorism" is starting to remind me of Walter Cronkite,s nightly body count on the news. I fully support our troops and feel for their families but I really am questioning the need for the sacrifice of our young people. There has got to be a better solution to the Iraq, Iran , Afghanistan, North Korea, Middle East etc. problems than just punching back. Sometimes it,s harder and takes alot more guts to find a peaceful way out.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> If you look at the history of the region, even just as far back as a hundred years or so, there really isn't any clear "bad guy" or "good guy" in this conflict. It's many shades of grey. The issues are far more complex than most pundits on either side of the issue would like us to believe.



Not to discount the hitory of the conflict, but it's hard to deny that Israel's reaction is heavy handed and out of proportion to the situation.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> There seems to be some kind of "lefty liberal" idea that in any fight both sides are equally right and no one is totally wrong....


...no, i think its that liberals don't buy into the "well, they're more wrong than we are" argument. i agree that the plo, hama and hezbollah appear to be "more wrong" than the israelis. you could probably prove that the northern irish are "more wrong" than the southern irish, and vice versa. but it begs the question: so what? the point is that trying to establish a good guy/bad guy status is pointless in most situations (nazi germany excepted). even the so-called terrorists believe that they are the good guys, and that god is on their side.

as someone else here suggested, if you're only going to focus on who is "badder" or fights dirtier, who kills the most civilians etc, the real problems will never be solved and the conflict will never end.

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> And if someone was hiding rocket launchers in my kids' school to use them as human shields then the first dark night I'd be out throwing some Molotov cocktails at them for putting me and my family in such danger!...


...thereby making you, and your family, the target, and inviting retaliation.

wouldn't it make more sense to start with "why"?

-dh


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*"Anyone who disagrees with me must be ignorant..."*



jroberts said:


> If you want to find a "bad guy" and a "good guy", its much easier to do that from a standpoint of ignorance or misunderstanding. If you educate yourself, though, you might find that things are a little less clear.


You seem to have totally missed my point. I judge someone not by their tribal history but by their deeds. You could strap me in a chair and lecture me for days until I agreed that one side was all wrong and that "your" side was on the side of the angels and it wouldn't matter.

If your main method of attack is to target innocents then I class you as an animal rather than a human being. There are some grey areas, such as the firebombing of Dresden and the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Truman's decision had some cold logic to it, in my opinion. A conventional invasion would have killed tens if not hundreds of times as many people before Japan's leaders would have conceded. Dresden to me seemed totally unnecessary. It was an action to demoralize the civilian will to fight. By that stage of the war it was pretty well gone already and there seemed to have been little to define Dresden as a military target.

I say again, when someone uses innocents as his cannon fodder for HIS "holy war" then I view him as a dangerous rabid animal and not a human being.

Explain to me how a history lecture justifies blowing up a busload of school kids...

And as for "Molotoving" a neighbourhood rocket launcher making me a target from the launcher's owners, you're correct. They would come after me if they identified me. However, by putting that launcher there they'd have ALREADY made me and my family a target! Somehow I can't see Hezbollah taking a survey in an apartment building as to how many are in favour of putting that launcher on a balcony...


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> You seem to have totally missed my point. I judge someone not by their tribal history but by their deeds. You could strap me in a chair and lecture me for days until I agreed that one side was all wrong and that "your" side was on the side of the angels and it wouldn't matter.
> 
> If your main method of attack is to target innocents then I class you as an animal rather than a human being. There are some grey areas, such as the firebombing of Dresden and the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Truman's decision had some cold logic to it, in my opinion. A conventional invasion would have killed tens if not hundreds of times as many people before Japan's leaders would have conceded. Dresden to me seemed totally unnecessary. It was an action to demoralize the civilian will to fight. By that stage of the war it was pretty well gone already and there seemed to have been little to define Dresden as a military target.
> 
> ...



Nagasaki and Hiroshima are grey areas to you?!


Not to me.


You could use convoluted logic to rationalize Hiroshima (although I could not), but to drop a second bomb several days later on another city full of civilian men, women and children was nothing short of an atrocity.

These two barbaric acts have had a profound impact on my view of American forign policy and conduct ever since, particularly when they use WOMDs as an excuse (however false) for invading a soveriegn nation.


Only one nation on the planet has ever used such devices although many have them.


To remain on topic, I believe Israel is most likely to be the next to use them.


----------



## WarrenG (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> If your main method of attack is to target innocents then I class you as an animal rather than a human being.


That's an insult to animals. Animals attack for food or when threatened: self-preservation, protection of territory, and/or offspring.

People, on the other hand, do all manner of unprovoked and despicable things to each other and their property... it's why we have laws.


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*"Hiroshima and Nagasaki..."*

To reply to the point about America dropping an A bomb 3 days later, how easy it is for us to miss the context of those times from the comfortable situation we enjoy today.

Truman dropped a second bomb because Japan still refused to surrender. A Japanese surrender was the entire point! Years of war and death had sickened the Allies. With Japan the only other option appeared to be to mount a land invasion. Estimates of casualties were too high to contemplate.

Ever talked to someone who survived a Japanese POW camp? I have. I've also talked to a German Canadian who was POW in an Allied camp. The treatment was totally different and a black mark on Japan they refuse to acknowledge even today. Canada apologised and awarded monetary damages to those Japanese Canadians interned in camps on our west coast ( which most would agree was a despicable act of racism).

Meanwhile, Canadians who were POW in Japanese camps have been demanding apologies and compensation for years but Japan has been deaf to their pleas.

Still, Japan only used kamikaze tactics on American ships and not on civilian buses.

If Iran succeeds in developing nuclear weapons I'll bet a case of beer any day that they will promptly nuke Israel! After all, they have sworn to wipe Israel off the map for years...


----------



## Benee Wafers (Jul 1, 2006)

Tell all the innocents to get out of Southern Lebanon and then nuke it.
That should keep Hez of the grounds for awhile.
This is a terrorist organization who live by maim and slaughter.
An international posse should be put together and Hez's back should be broken, once and for all.Then the same to Al Q.And the Iraqi resistance. And the caterers of genocide in Africa.
Benee


----------



## sneakypete (Feb 2, 2006)

I`ve always thought humans were animals...some more than others but still. There are to this day plenty of hard feelings in this neighborhood left over from WW II. I had a British uncle who spent 4 years as a Japanese POW, he`s passed away now though. When they arrived in San Franciso to fly back to England, it was decided to send them cross countrty by train to NY to fatten em up a little to spare their familes the shock of seeing them in such deplorable condition.
And.....we haven`t learned a thing since then have we.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Benee Wafers said:


> Tell all the innocents to get out of Southern Lebanon and then nuke it.
> That should keep Hez of the grounds for awhile.
> This is a terrorist organization who live by maim and slaughter.
> An international posse should be put together and Hez's back should be broken, once and for all.Then the same to Al Q.And the Iraqi resistance. And the caterers of genocide in Africa.
> Benee



Hmmm, what about the American and English terrorist army currently occupying Iraq and who have slaughtered tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians?


Sometimes it's a good excercise to try and look at things from the other side's perspective.

Do you suppose Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Iraqi freedom fighters view themselves as terrorists?


If we were invaded by an overwhelmingly powerful army, would you not take every opportunity to kill their soldiers using whatever sneaky gurrilla tactics you could? It's not like it would make any sense to stand up and fight face to face when you're outnumbered, outgunned and outsupplied.


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*"You have to swallow the whole thing..."*



Milkman said:


> Sometimes it's a good excercise to try and look at things from the other side's perspective.
> 
> Do you suppose Hezbollah, Hamas, and the Iraqi freedom fighters view themselves as terrorists?


Not at all. Judging by THEIR OWN STATEMENTS they view themselves as holy warriors of radical Islam, with a heaven sent mandate to impose their religious views and lifestyle on not just their own countries but eventually on the entire world!

All these posts that imply these groups are made up of "just plain Joes" fighting to free their country - what do you think they would do if they won? 

Maybe some guys approve of the idea of their daughters being stuffed under a burkha, banned from getting an education and if they were unfortunate enough to be raped THEY would be killed!

ALL of the groups you mentioned have repeatedly and publicly stated this is the kind of society they're striving to achieve!

Not all cultures are equally "nice". Some would like nothing better than to repay your support by removing YOUR freedoms the first chance they could get!

I'm getting a mental picture here of some poor kid being bullied at school who is being told by his teachers to just "Talk to them nicely and they will become your friends!"

It works sometimes, I hear. People win lotteries, too.

Most such kids just continue to be bullied very, very badly. They just learn it's pointless to ask for help - no one in authority will do anything. When a bully is bigger than you (or has most of the guns) he has no need to heed talk.

There are many Lebanese, Palestinians and others who LIKE having freedom! To suggest the West just bail on them seems not just naive but callous and cruel to me.


----------



## Mahogany Martin (Mar 2, 2006)

WarrenG said:


> That's an insult to animals. Animals attack for food or when threatened: self-preservation, protection of territory, and/or offspring.
> 
> People, on the other hand, do all manner of unprovoked and despicable things to each other and their property... it's why we have laws.



But every time a new law is passed, some bozos are hard at work trying to find ways to bypass it and get away with their sick demented twisted lazy ways. Don McLean with his song American Pie makes allusion to the end of a period of innocence, the post 2nd world war and pre-60’s. Some years of destructive wars and loss of lives and of course, the witnessing of the massive destruction that this new weapon that is the A bomb can do all contributed to cooling people off for a while. People in the 1950’s seemed so courteous to one another that it almost seemed to much. Progressively and with the coming of new generations, it all seems to fade away and human beings return to their instinctive hot-headedness.

It’s been debated here so far as to who really started this or these conflicts. Who knows really. But let’s note that it’s all in the name of (a) god; Hezbollah apparently means “Party Of God”. In the name of my Islamic god, I’m sending these missiles in order to some day annihilate the whole Jewish community? Why, ‘cos my god does not like your god and your people? What the f*^* ?? Doesn’t anybody’s god teach you to forgive, love one another and move on?

It has gone way too far unfortunately. Sometimes I think that it’s not CO2 alone that’s contributing to the warming of the planet but all of the hot-headed enraged people also contribute to that cause  I want to say “one thing for sure” although I hope that it’s not for sure that it unfortunately will require more than just a few nukes this time to cool people off again.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Not at all. Judging by THEIR OWN STATEMENTS they view themselves as holy warriors of radical Islam, with a heaven sent mandate to impose their religious views and lifestyle on not just their own countries but eventually on the entire world!
> 
> All these posts that imply these groups are made up of "just plain Joes" fighting to free their country - what do you think they would do if they won?
> 
> ...


----------



## Mahogany Martin (Mar 2, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Hmmm, what about the American and English terrorist army currently occupying Iraq and who have slaughtered tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians? ...


Wow, American and English TERRORISTS??? The real terrorists, the cowards and sickos have changed the strategies of wars and use civilians to hide themselves amongst them. If they had a spine, they could stand up and fight until they either win or loose and leave civilians out of it or better even, let democracy dictate whether their way of life is wanted in part, in it's entirety or if wanted at all.

Saddam and his cowards are the ones that have slaughtered tens of thousands of civilians (Chiates (sp?)) and that's partly why American and English armies are there today.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ofender said:


> Wow, American and English TERRORISTS??? The real terrorists, the cowards and sickos have changed the strategies of wars and use civilians to hide themselves amongst them. If they had a spine, they could stand up and fight until they either win or loose and leave civilians out of it or better even, let democracy dictate whether their way of life is wanted in part, in it's entirety or if wanted at all.
> 
> Saddam and his cowards are the ones that have slaughtered tens of thousands of civilians (Chiates (sp?)) and that's partly why American and English armies are there today.



Right. Explain to me again how Saddam's tyranny was our business.

From the perspective of MANY Iraqis(obviously), the American and English armies are occupying invaders. If Canada was invaded by another nation and our rather small and poorly equipped army was obviously no match for them, I'd use every means at my disposal to harrass, impede and kill the pricks. 

Fight fair?


Is that what you're actually saying? OK, presuming we had ANY business over there in the first place, fair might be more like, bring over a much smaller force, equipped with armament similar to the Iraqis.

What's fair about what's happening in the Middle East?



All a matter of perspective.


----------



## Mahogany Martin (Mar 2, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Right. Explain to me again how Saddam's tyranny was our business.
> 
> From the perspective of MANY Iraqis(obviously), the American and English armies are occupying invaders. If Canada was invaded by another nation and our rather small and poorly equipped army was obviously no match for them, I'd use every means at my disposal to harrass, impede and kill the pricks.
> 
> ...


Look man, you're abosutely right as far as the matter of perspective goes. And I respect the fact that you want to turn your back on the less fortunate and live your comfortable happy life over here. But this planet just isn't so big anymore; anything that happens anywhere has repercussions everywhere. And most importantly, the less fortunate nations are asking and somehow drawing in the more powerful nations for help. Look how Lebanese Canadians have criticized our Government about the *slow response* of getting over there to rescue them. This country is made up of immigrants from all over and I believe that we need to accept that we have a duty to help whenever we can.

And like I said, I respect your and other people's opinion and I hope that you can respect mine too 'cos if you don't, you and I and a whole nation will be going down the same path as the people that we are discussing here. :food-smiley-004: Let stay cool :smilie_flagge17:

Edit: and about the occupying invaders, these people are torned; they have a long way to go before being rid of corrupted leadership like Al-Queda. And that is if they believe that it can happen at all some day. It's probably pretty tough and some might want to give up the fight.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...when i was young, i read comic books and watched walt disney on television and went to the movies and believed that the world was made up of good guys and bad guys.

if, indeed, israel is truly blameless, and the plo, hamas and hezbollah exist for no other reason than to destroy all jews, like hitler, for no reason whatsoever other than they hate them, then, by all means they should be put of business.

somehow, i have a feeling it is just not that simple.

-dh


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...when i was young, i read comic books and watched walt disney on television and went to the movies and believed that the world was made up of good guys and bad guys.
> 
> if, indeed, israel is truly blameless, and the plo, hamas and hezbollah exist for no other reason than to destroy all jews, like hitler, for no reason whatsoever other than they hate them, then, by all means they should be put of business.
> 
> ...



Yes.

Funny how the older you get the more you realize how little you knew ten years ago, LOL.


People tend to want to see things as black and white. It's always wise to consider the possibility that the OTHER guys could be right.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ofender said:


> Look man, you're abosutely right as far as the matter of perspective goes. And I respect the fact that you want to turn your back on the less fortunate and live your comfortable happy life over here. But this planet just isn't so big anymore; anything that happens anywhere has repercussions everywhere. And most importantly, the less fortunate nations are asking and somehow drawing in the more powerful nations for help. Look how Lebanese Canadians have criticized our Government about the *slow response* of getting over there to rescue them. This country is made up of immigrants from all over and I believe that we need to accept that we have a duty to help whenever we can.
> 
> And like I said, I respect your and other people's opinion and I hope that you can respect mine too 'cos if you don't, you and I and a whole nation will be going down the same path as the people that we are discussing here. :food-smiley-004: Let stay cool :smilie_flagge17:
> 
> Edit: and about the occupying invaders, these people are torned; they have a long way to go before being rid of corrupted leadership like Al-Queda. And that is if they believe that it can happen at all some day. It's probably pretty tough and some might want to give up the fight.



"And I respect the fact that you want to turn your back on the less fortunate and live your comfortable happy life over here."


You make a confrontational statement like this out of one side of your mouth and then give me the "let's stay cool" stuff out the other side?


I submit that I'm not turning my back on them. I think the western armies have done far more harm than good in the Middle east and that more people, including those you claim to sympathise with have died as a result than would have under Saddam.

Can you deny that the Middle East is a $hitty mess right now? We have our own issues to deal with. Hell we can't even make peace with 1st nations and we're trying to solve other nations problems?

If you're so intent on helping those less fortunate than us, go to Dafur and feed some starving kids.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ofender said:


> Saddam and his cowards are the ones that have slaughtered tens of thousands of civilians (Chiates (sp?)) and that's partly why American and English armies are there today.


...to slaughter more civilians?


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...to slaughter more civilians?



I'd LOL if it weren't true.

I believe they refer to that as "collateral damage".


What a frigging nightmare.

And now Canada is being dragged down the toilette as well.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...the first thing out of "steve" harper's mouth when terrorists were caught planning to blow up stuff in canada was "they hate our freedoms".

really? its that simple?

actually, if you examine what's behind door number one, you'll find that our own religious leaders hate our freedoms, too. and for the same reasons.

recently there was a letter to the editor in the toronto star that claimed that quebercers are biased against using military force to solve the world's problems.

imagine that.

we live in interesting times, when even some of my closest friends now believe that people like me, who believe in peace and diplomacy, are idiots.

nonetheless, my advice is to learn how to talk to your so-called enemies.

or, you could wait until after the next 9-11, after iran nukes israel, etc, after half the popolation on the planet is wiped out in the next world war...

-dh


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...the first thing out of "steve" harper's mouth when terrorists were caught planning to blow up stuff in canada was "they hate our freedoms".
> 
> really? its that simple?
> 
> ...



Peace has long been a dirty word to some.

Believe in peace, tolerence and diplomacy and you're labeled naive.

In my younger years I was a card carrying member of the Reform party. I have made a considerable turnaround in my political leanings over the past ten years or so.

It's important to keep saying "The Emporer's Naked" in the hopes that those with open minds will stop and think.

I start with my kids.


----------



## Mahogany Martin (Mar 2, 2006)

Milkman said:


> "And I respect the fact that you want to turn your back on the less fortunate and live your comfortable happy life over here."
> 
> 
> You make a confrontational statement like this out of one side of your mouth and then give me the "let's stay cool" stuff out the other side?
> ...


As I wrote that, I knew and felt that it was confrontational and I apologize. I apologize for poking at you in this manner (must be the human being in me) but as for the other half of this statement, I still stand my ground. It is turnig your back on the less fortunate.

And even if we got out of "there" (or never even went there in the first place), they'd find a way to *include* us in their madness. Thye hate us, hate each other, hate hate hate. You think that they wanted to blow up some buildings dowtown Toronto simply because we are "there"? I don't think so.

It'd be nice to be able to focus on one problem at a time, resolve it and move on to the next one. It would be very nice.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> People tend to want to see things as black and white. It's always wise to consider the possibility that the OTHER guys could be right.


...or, at the very least, consider the possibility that they may, in fact, have legitimate grievances that, at the very least, should be heard, acknowledged and open to discussion.

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ofender said:


> And even if we got out of "there" (or never even went there in the first place), they'd find a way to *include* us in their madness. Thye hate us, hate each other, hate hate hate. You think that they wanted to blow up some buildings dowtown Toronto simply because we are "there"? I don't think so.QUOTE]
> 
> ...they hate us? that's it? no reason? no history? no sources?
> 
> ...


----------



## Mahogany Martin (Mar 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...to slaughter more civilians?


David, I have a lot of respest for you (and for Milkman and everybody here) but I'm not quite sure how to read this. I suppose for instance that the Allies could have thought and said the same thing for fear of killing civilians too? But in the end, and 60 years later, the nations that we helped free from the Germans are very grateful.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ofender said:


> As I wrote that, I knew and felt that it was confrontational and I apologize. I apologize for poking at you in this manner (must be the human being in me) but as for the other half of this statement, I still stand my ground. It is turnig your back on the less fortunate.
> 
> And even if we got out of "there" (or never even went there in the first place), they'd find a way to *include* us in their madness. Thye hate us, hate each other, hate hate hate. You think that they wanted to blow up some buildings dowtown Toronto simply because we are "there"? I don't think so.
> 
> It'd be nice to be able to focus on one problem at a time, resolve it and move on to the next one. It would be very nice.



That's ok. It's cool to have and express different opinions as long as we stay respectful.


Do you realize you used the word hate five times in one sentence?

Again, consider the possibility that they think the same of us. It surely must seem like we hate them from their point of view.

We (and I use that term loosely) DID invade Iraq and the US is clearly on the side of Israel, right or wrong.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> Does anyone here really think that the West's foreign policy in the middle east (and particularly U.S. policy in the middle east) is based on helping the less fortunate?



Yes, some people actually believe that, in spite of who's telling us so.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ofender said:


> David, I have a lot of respest for you (and for Milkman and everybody here) but I'm not quite sure how to read this. I suppose for instance that the Allies could have thought and said the same thing for fear of killing civilians too? But in the end, and 60 years later, the nations that we helped free from the Germans are very grateful.


...hitler's germany WAS a black and white situation, as i understand it. hitler wanted to conquer the world through military force and human slaughter.

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

jroberts said:


> Does anyone here really think that the West's foreign policy in the middle east (and particularly U.S. policy in the middle east) is based on helping the less fortunate?


...fox news?


----------



## Mahogany Martin (Mar 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ofender said:
> 
> 
> > And even if we got out of "there" (or never even went there in the first place), they'd find a way to *include* us in their madness. Thye hate us, hate each other, hate hate hate. You think that they wanted to blow up some buildings dowtown Toronto simply because we are "there"? I don't think so.QUOTE]
> ...


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ofender said:


> How about you enlighten me now with some history, reasons and sources?


...first you'll have to show me where i represented myself here as some sort of expert or authority in those subjects.

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ofender said:


> david henman said:
> 
> 
> > I don’t know if I can enlighten you, but how about I entertain you with a short story?
> ...


----------



## Mahogany Martin (Mar 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> Does anyone here really think that the West's foreign policy in the middle east (and particularly U.S. policy in the middle east) is based on helping the less fortunate?


j my man, those picket fences are probably uncomfortable. :smile: Little snips like this might indicate the side that you may want to come down from that fence. So why don't you do just that and tell us a little more. Please.

Let me help you get started here friend, .... once upon a time.... Bush.... yaddee yaddaa .... Bush ....


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ofender said:


> david henman said:
> 
> 
> > I don’t know if I can enlighten you, but how about I entertain you with a short story?
> ...


----------



## Mahogany Martin (Mar 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...first you'll have to show me where i represented myself here as some sort of expert or authority in those subjects.
> 
> -dh


Oh so now I'm an expert and authority on this subject? The way you talk David shows that maybe you've got it all covered and that I'm just a shmock who's challenging your authority. Funny how perception works huh?

Just so you know though, I'm just trying to debate this and understand as much as you do.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ofender said:


> Oh so now I'm an expert and authority on this subject? The way you talk David shows that maybe you've got it all covered and that I'm just a shmock who's challenging your authority. Funny how perception works huh?
> Just so you know though, I'm just trying to debate this and understand as much as you do.


...time to chill, my friend. did i suggest that you are an expert and an authority on this, or any, subject? can you show me where i made that claim? while you're at it, where have i inferred that i have it all covered, and that you're a..."schmock"?

you stated that "they hate us". all i'm asking is that you back it up.

-dh


----------



## Mahogany Martin (Mar 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ofender said:
> 
> 
> > ...what is the point of the story? that many of us are bottom feeders? you'll not get an argument from me?
> ...


----------



## Mahogany Martin (Mar 2, 2006)

Milkman said:


> ofender said:
> 
> 
> > Well on the merit of that story, I'll have to change my opinion of all Islamic people.
> ...


----------



## Mahogany Martin (Mar 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> Confusing the Torah and the Quar'an pretty much kills any suggestion that you might have even an inkling of understanding about the situation in the middle east. Sorry to be harsh, but come on... that one is a giveaway.


Thank you, sorry the Quar'an. How's your testosterone level now? You must be so happy. You crushed me. Victory. Oh what a feeling. I still haven't heard your elaborate on your statement about the US political agendas though.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ofender said:


> david henman said:
> 
> 
> > WHAT?? The point of my story? You're the one that asked me about my statement about "they hate us". These are people who live here, who take advantage of the way of life here yet they want to blow up buildings downtown. People who grew up in England blew up their subway stations. They interpret the Torrah (sp?) to suit their own agendas of destructions because I believe that they have hate in their hearts. That's all I'm saying dude.
> ...


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ofender said:


> I've seen other debates here before turning into such garbage. It's too bad because it could be a great site. But then there's this parade of testosterone by people who claim in being able to be objective...


...can you give us an example of that?

-dh


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> ofender said:
> 
> 
> > Well on the merit of that story, I'll have to change my opinion of all Islamic people.
> ...


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> To spell it out, the examples here about the aims of radical Islam have never stated that ALL Islamic folks are evil. It would indeed be convoluted logic to keep implying that NONE of them with the power of violence have negative or malicious aims! Many have shouted to the world their violent intent. Many of these have the resources to carry out these aims, and have and are doing so..


...are you aware of the extremely violent and malicious hatred, as expressed by american conservatives (many of whom claim to be christian), for ALL brown people, muslims, islamics, homosexuals, immigrants, mexicans, french people, canadians etc etc etc etc?

-dh


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ofender said:


> Milkman said:
> 
> 
> > Awww man, wow. Unbelievable. That is so firkin sad.
> ...


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Milkman said:
> 
> 
> > Sigh! Here we again see an example of the "straw man" debating tactic. Twist your opponent's point into something different that can be easily "skewered", even though it's not what he actually was saying.
> ...


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...by the way, we *ALL* need to keep this thread civil and devoid of personal attacks if we want to be able to continue this discussion.

this isn't directed at anyone specifically.

:food-smiley-004:


----------



## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

*A little history*

Well, it's a complete and utter mess over there. There can be no military solution. There can be no diplomatic solution as long as negotiations are based on lies and myths. People on all sides need to face the _truth_. That's not going to happen anytime soon, or perhaps ever.

Here's an example: There are no Palestinians. There isn't and never was a nation or country or state or whatever called Palestine. The origin of the name came from the Romans to add insult to injury to the Jews after the temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. It is derived from the name Philistines who invaded Israel 3500 years ago. The name never stuck.

After the 1967 war the Arabs decided (after repeated attemps to subdue Israel militarily) that they needed a "myth" to help sway world opinion in their favor. They had told the Arabs living there to get out before they attacked and thus created "refugees". They have been used as pawns ever since and have not been allowed citizenship in any other Arab nation. The claim that they are "Palestinian refugees" is totally bogus (Yassir Arafat was Egyptian) as is the desire for a Palestinian state. If they accept a Palestinian state, that still leaves Israel in place which is completely counter to why they invented the myth in the first place. That's why if progress seems to be being made towards a settlement, they do everything they can to **** it up. They do not want Israel to exist. Period. The hope is that by leaving the "Palestinian" problem as an open sore the Israelis will continue to make land concessions and eventually become so small and weak that they will be unable to survive economically or politically.

There has been a Jewish presence in the region for centuries where they have lived peacefully among the Arabs (although as second class citizens) but when the State of Israel was created by the western powers in 1948, trouble began instantly. That's why they hate "the west". The "Arab nation" also does not fully recognise the divisions of Jordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon etc. as they are also constructs of western influence.

As for Lebanon, it's just a convenient launching pad. Again.


----------



## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Lester, dude, that post is just full of propoganda. Can you guys keep it to discussion and not this type of crap?..........


----------



## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Lester, dude, that post is just full of propoganda. Can you guys keep it to discussion and not this type of crap?..........


Your right, it is full of propoganda. That's my point. There's no solution until we cut through the crap.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Lester B. Flat said:


> Your right, it is full of propoganda. That's my point. There's no solution until we cut through the crap.


...this is why some of us feel the need to ask the questions.

to simply adopt an attitude like "they're the bad guys, we're the good guys, lets go slaughter some humans" doesn't accomplish much more than the slaughter of humans and the creation of even more intense hatred.

-dh


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

When you're in a hole, the obvious solution is to stop digging.



The vicious circle of back and forth violence serves nothing more than itself.



What if you were born in Iraq or Afghanistan. Would you be wrong to think the soldiers from across the ocean who likely killed people you knew and loved were the enemy? If so, would you be wrong to think of them as evil?


In spite of the vocal minority shouting death to America in the streets, do you honestly believe Islamic nations would come over here to pick a fight?


911 was a response. It was a horrible one and the individuals in the planes and those who supported them directly with money or protection are the enemies, not Iraq, Lebanon or even Afghanistan or Pakistan.


If a murderer eludes capture by hiding in an apartment complex is it acceptable to raize the building, killing anyone unlucky enough to be at home?


----------



## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...this is why some of us feel the need to ask the questions.
> 
> to simply adopt an attitude like "they're the bad guys, we're the good guys, lets go slaughter some humans" doesn't accomplish much more than the slaughter of humans and the creation of even more intense hatred.
> 
> -dh


Right. There are two sides to every story. If you take one side or the other, you become blind to half the truth. Sometimes your heart tells you one thing but your head tells you another. You have to listen to both. When I try to imagine a solution to this problem, my heart sinks and my head spins.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> When you're in a hole, the obvious solution is to stop digging.
> The vicious circle of back and forth violence serves nothing more than itself.
> What if you were born in Iraq or Afghanistan. Would you be wrong to think the soldiers from across the ocean who likely killed people you knew and loved were the enemy? If so, would you be wrong to think of them as evil?
> In spite of the vocal minority shouting death to America in the streets, do you honestly believe Islamic nations would come over here to pick a fight?
> ...


...good points.

do a little searching around the net and you'll find plenty of american conservative hatred for "brown people", using language that is just as violent, malicious and despicable as anything that comes out of the mouths of so-called terrorists.

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Lester B. Flat said:


> Right. There are two sides to every story. If you take one side or the other, you become blind to half the truth. Sometimes your heart tells you one thing but your head tells you another. You have to listen to both. When I try to imagine a solution to this problem, my heart sinks and my head spins.


...getting human males to listen to each other is next to impossible.

i'm for putting women in charge.

heck, i'll even cook, clean up and provide some after dinner entertainment!

-dh


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Looks like airline travel just got a little worse with this nonsense over in England as well. I am afraid that we are going to be talking about this well past our lifetimes. It's a global war.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Looks like airline travel just got a little worse with this nonsese over in England as well. I am afraid that we are going to be talking about this well past our lifetimes. It's a global war.


...and, unless cooler heads prevail, its going to get a lot worse.

-dh


----------



## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

In the middle East alot of the younger generation is getting more and more willing to talk about the 2 state solution. Both sides are tired of the old fogies and their war over the land. That is the good news. The bad news is the younger generation in Pakistan and Afghanistan are the opposite. If peace is acheived in the middle east, we will still have problems from other Islamic nations. The biggest country of the Islamic nations has been mostly ignored when talking about Islamic terrorists for some reason, which is scary, because in the future they could be the biggest problem. They have a dynamic econonomy, the ability to hide amongst 18000 small islands, and ruling bodies and a judicial system that will turn the other cheek when the Islamic fundamentalists require it. I still refuse to purchase any guitar made by those guys.................


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> When you're in a hole, the obvious solution is to stop digging.
> 
> What if you were born in Iraq or Afghanistan. Would you be wrong to think the soldiers from across the ocean who likely killed people you knew and loved were the enemy? If so, would you be wrong to think of them as evil?
> 
> ...


"...stop digging!" Ah, an old Preston Manning quote!

If I lived in Iraq or Afghanistan, I guess my feelings toward foreign troops would depend upon how I had felt about Saddam or the Taliban. Being right or wrong would depend upon my knowledge or ignorance of all the facts involved. Everybody is entitled to their opinion but not to pick and choose the facts.

Do I believe some Islamic nations would come over here to pick a fight? It doesn't work that way. No Islamic nation would officially do such a thing. It would be an official act of war and we would be legally and morally entitled to strike back. Of course, if it was Canada they picked on we don't have any means to strike back.

The way it works in the Arab fundamentalist world is for such nations to support terrorist groups. If the group blows up an American building the country behind the plot has "plausible deniability" - it wasn't a country but "merely" a rogue "independent" gang. Hezbollah gets an Iranian paycheck laundered through a Syrian bank but both those countries claim they're not involved.

I believe that Arab fundamentalists are no different from any other religious fanatics. Just because we suffer from similar wingnuts here is no good reason to forgive the ones in the Middle East. 

Afghanistan was run by the Taliban. It has been conclusively established that they trained, financed and supported Osama so that he could commit violence upon America. If America had not brought down the Taliban they would have continued their attacks. 

Why? Because they're fanatics! America to them is the Great Satan that supports Israel. I believe that much of their anger to the West comes from a frustration that they need guns pointed at many of their own people to prevent them from going for satellite dishes, Levis and rock&roll. That's a large part of what brought down the Berlin Wall, after all.

Iraq is a different story. No one mourns Saddam but Bush and his crew obviously botched it! They seemed to think that after the Iraqis pulled down that statue of Saddam they would turn their country into a clone of New Jersey and be America's friend forever. MacArthur helped rebuild Japan after WWII. Bush seems to have never even thought of the need to do such a thing. So the "liberated" Iraqis went hungry in the dark while Bush dithered. 

As the people grew more and more frustrated the climate was right for radical elements to move in. This is similar to how many older folks in Russia missed the old Soviet Union. They made have been light on personal freedoms but at least there was always enough bread.

Bush is now trapped. If he pulls out Iraq will instantly turn into a blood bath. Afterwards everyone will blame America for bailing out. Many of these voices will be the same ones that now berate him for staying.

If he does stay he still can't win. Why? Because he just doesn't seem smart enough to do the job right!

What's needed is a UN led operation with an intelligent approach. The problem here is that the UN is also inept. There are millions dead in Rwanda to prove this point. What's more, nobody else wants to pay in dollars and blood for such police actions. They'd rather America foot the bill and then carp at her afterward.

You disagree? Then name me a single UN action in the last 30 years that did not involve the USA paying the lion's share. Then name me one that the UN actually did WITHOUT American resources!

Cheap hypocrites, the lot of them!

As a sidebar, this thread contains a lot of mindless anti-americanism. I don't think Bush is any too bright either but even a broken clock is right twice a day. To hear some folks' posts if America discovered a cure for cancer they'd say that it was a plot to put doctors out of work! Being blindly partisan makes you an easy dupe...

Is it right to raze a whole building just to catch one murderer in hiding? Your example is not a good parallel. Israel has no obligation to play policeman. The government of Israel must protect its citizens. If Hezbollah hides rocket launchers on apartment balconies what is Israel supposed to do? The Lebanese government should be rooting out such launchers. They obviously can't or won't.

Israel HAS to stop the rocket attacks! Does anyone seriously maintain that they should just quietly die because a lot of their neighbours don't like them?

Suppose a terrorist group set up a rocket launcher in Buffalo, NY and started firing into Canada. We complain and the American government says "Sorry! It's a rogue group that we can't control! But if you fire back we will condemn you!"

My example is also not a good parallel. Canada would not likely do anything, except maybe to appoint a Royal Commission to decide if it's a federal or provincial matter.

The situation in Caledonia proves that...


----------



## Mahogany Martin (Mar 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...getting human males to listen to each other is next to impossible.
> 
> i'm for putting women in charge.
> 
> ...


-dh my man, you a little on the crazy side but I like it. Putting women in charge?? Hm... I don't know how well I could live in a white house with white walls inside, white firly curtains, oh! an off white bed duvet cover.. oh lala and oh look! white flowers all over  but it might be a concession worth thinking about since that you're quite right about getting human males to listen to each other: impossible!

The after dinner entertainment i'm all for, SOME clean up and SOME cooking...:smile:

Edit: A bit of dumb post (wouldn't be my first one) after Wild Bill above, but the more serious aspect of it is as David is suggesting here that how do you get people to listen to each other? Catching glimpses of news shows people almost hysterical hating this and hating that. "Bush is now trapped" and so are we. What needs to happen is for people to cool off. But that's unfortunately not going to happen. It's a race for power and nations want a piece of that pie. US has been powerfull for a while now, it might be different in 50, 100, 200 years.


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

> What's needed is a UN led operation with an intelligent approach


And if maybe's and but's were presents and nuts, we'd all have a merry christmas.


----------



## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...getting human males to listen to each other is next to impossible.
> 
> i'm for putting women in charge.
> 
> ...


Isn't Anne Coulter a woman? No guarantees there! 

But seriously, they couldn't do any worse.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Israel HAS to stop the rocket attacks! Does anyone seriously maintain that they should just quietly die because a lot of their neighbours don't like them?...


...is it really that simple? are the plo, hamas and hezbollah attacking israel simply because:

1. they hate jews?
2. they have nothing better to do?
3. they have evil in their hearts?
4. its a good time to invest in real estate?
4. they're the spawn of satan?
5. its a good career move?

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Lester B. Flat said:


> Isn't Anne Coulter a woman?


...the tests are inconclusive.

-dh


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Ann Coulter makes me want to vomit everytime I hear her voice. However, they seem to keep putting her on these talk shows.


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

*Terrorist plot in England*

Can you imagine where we would be today if those savage bastards were to have gotten away with that plan? I guess it's only a matter of time before they do manage to attack again.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> As a sidebar, this thread contains a lot of mindless anti-americanism. I don't think Bush is any too bright either but even a broken clock is right twice a day. To hear some folks' posts if America discovered a cure for cancer they'd say that it was a plot to put doctors out of work! Being blindly partisan makes you an easy dupe......


...there's a reason, in fact many reasons, why people are anti-american. simply dismissing those reasons is equally blind. if you think anti-american feelings developed out of thin air because we are envious of their money, military prowess, monster trucks and breast implants, or if you believe that america is somehow above reproach, you've been duped.

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Can you imagine where we would be today if those savage bastards were to have gotten away with that plan? I guess it's only a matter of time before they do manage to attack again.


...unless we find a way to understand and deal with the "swamp of hatred" that we have somehow landed in, more attacks and larger scale battles are inevitable.

personally, i'm not optimistic.

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Ann Coulter makes me want to vomit everytime I hear her voice. However, they seem to keep putting her on these talk shows.


...she represents a lot of american neocons. 

sadly, we now have right wing hate radio in canada or, at least, in toronto" john oakley, 640 am morning show, among others. callers cannot wait to get on the radio and talk about "those people".

this morning on cfrb the screeners had to dismiss 80% of the callers because they wanted to get on the radio to espouse hatred and racism, according to host peter sherman.

we live in a strange era, when violence and hatred is perceived as manly, and men of peace are dismissed as liberal commie peacenik artfags.

the less said about the notion that you're either on america's side, or you're on the side of the terrorists, the better, not to mention the belief that you're either on israel's side or you're anti-semetic.

-dh


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...there's a reason, in fact many reasons, why people are anti-american. simply dismissing those reasons is equally blind. if you think anti-american feelings developed out of thin air because we are envious of their money, military prowess, monster trucks and breast implants, or if you believe that america is somehow above reproach, you've been duped.
> 
> -dh



Exactly, and I'd go further. I am not anti-American. I want America to return to her past greatness. America has the potential to be the greatest or the worst nation on the planet. The direction in which she has gone under the neo con administration is horrifying (or should be) to anyone who sincerely wants peace on earth.


----------



## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

The americans are in the middle east for one reason, OIL. They need it to keep there nation flowing. If they had spent as much money on technologies for alternate fuel or developing the tarsands as they spent on military expenses then maybe they wouldn't have to be over there. To quote Milkman and I totally agree...

America has the potential to be the greatest or the worst nation on the planet. The direction in which she has gone under the neo con administration is horrifying (or should be) to anyone who sincerely wants peace on earth.


----------



## sneakypete (Feb 2, 2006)

and I fear the damage the current US administration has inflicted on itself will take decades to repair. I mean why do they let Bush speak publicly...he offended even more Muslims with his fascist remark the other night. He started off OK, but he just didn`t know when to shut up. I can`t believe that he is the guy the free world is looking to to solve the problems that are mounting up under his watch. The middle east situation has been bubbling over for hundreds of years it`s just that now, they have access to the most lethal weapons that oil money can buy and it seems they have finally united... in their hatred of the west...and it`s not only America and Britain, the Spanish explosions on the trains, the French riots, the Indian train attacks this year the list goes on and on. It sure looks like it`s going to be a global war if it isn`t one already. 
Religion...we gotta get rid of it.


----------



## Rattlesnake (Jul 20, 2006)

*Dats It!!*

Is it just me or are we seeing a World War III developing here? I really don't feel like eating a torpedo! And with the nuclear weapons out there, well let's not go there!! Fact is th U.S. just does not have the pull they once had to be the control freeks they once were!!.......Let's take a wait and see attitude on this one.


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*"Makers, takers and fakers. There are no other kinds!" - P T Barnum*



jroberts said:


> It looks like we agree on at least one thing, Bill. Why is it though, that you're the one who seems to always want to demark every issue along left/right battle lines and blame all the world's problems on "lefty liberals". I don't see how this is at all a left/right issue. There are a lot of current issues (the environment being another) that just don't seem to me to be left/right issues, but certain people like yourself insist on making them so.


Please don't misunderstand me, JR. I don't demarcate on left/right lines. I rant more against a way of thinking.

To me the universe is based on laws of logic and causality. This applies to politics as much as science. After many years on this plane I've noticed that my fellow citizens fall into two distinct camps - those that believe because it makes sense and those that do because it makes them feel good.

Of course, there are a lot of hybrids. Including myself, at times. 

What most appalls me is how so many seem to pick "heroes' and "villains" and decide that anything their hero does or says must be true and you don't have to bother answering questions from someone you label as "on the wrong side".

Go back through the threads and you'll see Bush and/or America bashing as a substitute for reason. Frankly, as a media and political junkie I see this all the time. I think many Canadians DO have an inferiority complex. Sadly, instead of making ourselves better we slam any (republican) president. We embarass ourselves internationally when our Prime Minister will slam Bush over Kyoto when the Americans have actually reduced emissions while we've dramatically increased them! To me it doesn't mattter if you're limber enough to pat yourself on the back. You either do something or you don't. You cut emissions or you shoot the crap. No inbetween.

I've been watching this sort of thing for over 30 years with the environmental movement. It has become a business in itself, where it makes scary claims to garner donations. The science is often twisted to satisfy their politics. My first book as a child was probably a science text. I just can't swallow the claims of a bunch of Ryerson journalism grads at a global warming rally without a bucket or two of salt.

More bothersome still, I have this uneasy feeling that while groups like GreenPeace are distracting us with their bad science there's something very dangerous we're ignoring in other areas. One "eco-warrior" I knew finally admitted he couldn't defend some of the popular claims with good science but defended them by stating that "anything that works is justified 'cuz the need is so great!"

To me, that's more faith than reason. I have no confidence in jingoism.

I will admit that from my perspective it is the Left who tend to this kind of approach. I can't begin to count the number of times I've asked a question or balked at accepting some point and been told "Well, what would you know? You obviously are a rightwinger! You love George Bush and his lackey Steven Harper so you must not only be wrong but actually evil-minded!"

On an old Firesign Theatre album they did a skit where someone asks a political robot president "Where can I find a job?" The answer is "Rest assured that in the Future we won't have to answer questions like yours anymore!"

I have less confidence in most modern leftwing causes simply because they always seem to appeal by emotion. To me this is always suspicious. If a man can't give me a good reason it's a sure bet he hasn't got one. I studied much NDP literature including their party constitution when I was younger and was instantly struck by how they could write books on wealth redistribution and not a single paragraph about wealth generation. Bob Rae's short term in office some years ago here in Ontario proved how well that approach worked! He made tough times much harder. When he took one of his family to a hospital in Buffalo I wrote him off!

Just because I have few or no leftwing heroes doesn't at all mean I love every rightwing figure. A politician is a politician, after all! I considered much of Chretien's and Martin's Liberals to be arrogant at best and outright crooked at worst. This in no way meant I thought Harper was Jesus born again! Merely the least fragrant option...

This is why you see me write about more simple ways to judge, by deeds and not words. Or actions instead of promises.

Many popular sacred cows today are self-sustaining simply because of politics and money. Do you know what happens to any scientist who questions global warming? He's likely to lose his funding! And/or his status among his peer groups. Can you then accept his words as scientific and unbiased?

My scientific heroes are men like Richard Feynman and especially Kary Mullis, who won the Nobel for discovering how to unravel the DNA molecule. Mullis wrote a delightful book called "Surfing through the Mind Field" which illustrates his views on the junk science he finds in the enviromental movement, nutrition claims, the connection between HIV and Aids and much else. As an acid-tripping California surfer dude with a Nobel in science he's fascinating and his views are NOT easily dismissed if there's any science or reason to your disageements at all! He too notices how much politics and trendiness is dictating approaches in scientific areas.

Politically I'm best defined as a classic liberal, which has no recognisable connection to modern Canadian liberalism. I usually have to stifle a laugh when some ignorant poly-sci grad labels me a Tory. Yet again I support the Tories only because I find the others a poorer choice.

With the Arab and Israeli conflicts I decide by asking who would I feel more comfortable having as a neighbour? So far I've never heard of an Israeli suicide bomber. I take the same stand with the tactics of the natives in Caledonia. I totally agree with their land claims but when they used the ordinary citizens of the town as cannon fodder I wrote them off too. I would have NO confidence in the safety of my family or my property if I had them as neighbours. How could I after so many of their actions? Yet they still claim that they can't understand why the folks of Caledonia are upset with them. Their argument seems to be "Well, I did punch you in the face but hey! It's not my fault! Your goverment provoked me! You have no right to try to hit me back!"

Well, that's MY lecture, JR! Rest assured that I will NOT call YOU ignorant for disagreeing with me!


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

jroberts said:


> I can't help but notice how many times you contridict yourself over the course of a typical thread - claiming to be appalled by people who do something that you yourself appear to be a master of. If you would keep your posts more concise and organize your thoughts better before commiting them to writing, you might be able to avoid some of that.


OK, I'll bite! Please enlighten me with specifics! Feel free to use quotes from my posts!

"If you want to find a "bad guy" and a "good guy", its much easier to do that from a standpoint of ignorance or misunderstanding. If you educate yourself, though, you might find that things are a little less clear."

By the way, you ended a sentence with a preposition. Does that nullify your entire argument? Let me check the Torah...


----------



## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

sneakypete said:


> Religion...we gotta get rid of it.


I wasn't gonna say that, but I'm glad you did.


----------



## sneakypete (Feb 2, 2006)

well I can`t count the number of times i`ve heard ...with God`s help, or with God`s blessing...when referring to murdering people. I mean pick a god any god...do they really condone killing in his name? What kind of supreme being is that? And it`s not like it`s something new... people have used religion as a means to justify killing for centuries. But, it`s not all religious people either...some are content to live their faith peacefully while other can`t seem to live on the same planet as others who don`t believe as fanatically as they do. I don`t know what the answers are but , I don`t have much hope for our species if things continue the way they are.


----------



## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

So we should be out pickin' our hearts out before it is to late.....:rockon2:


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Lester B. Flat said:


> I wasn't gonna say that, but I'm glad you did.


"Getting rid of it" would be against the freedoms we treasure. 

I do agree that religion is at the root of much of the evil in the world however and would love to see it relegated to being a personal and private thing.

There is NO place in school or government for religion in my opinion.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Go back through the threads and you'll see Bush and/or America bashing as a substitute for reason.


...perhaps you see it that way. but it is based on genuine political and philosophical disagreement in a number of areas, not the least of which is the common american belief that they are the greatest country in the world, based on military power and wealth. what kind of person considers those to be "values"? 

if you look at the statistics, which i don't have in front me, unfortunately, for the number of americans that have ever been outside america, much less lived in another country, their claim to greatness seems to be somewhat ill-informed, if not entirely without foundation. the less said about the corollary - that, therefore, every country in the world is inferior to the USA - the better.

and then there is america's perception that they are the world police.

how would you feel if another country - china, for example - launched a pre-emptive and unprovoked war against the US, based on their possession of WMDs?

many see anti-american feelings as simple jealousy of their wealth and military prowess. that makes no sense whatsoever.

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> I do agree that religion is at the root of much of the evil in the world however and would love to see it relegated to being a personal and private thing.


...amen!....er....i mean...right on!

-dh


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

> perhaps you see it that way. but it is based on genuine political and philosophical disagreement in a number of areas, not the least of which is the common american belief that they are the greatest country in the world, based on military power and wealth. what kind of person considers those to be "values"?


It always worked in the playground at school. It has always been that way. If you have the biggest stick, you get to make the rules. I think that should be kept to within your own playground though, and not someone elses.


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*"Ass, gas or grass - nobody rides for free!"*



GuitarsCanada said:


> It always worked in the playground at school. It has always been that way. If you have the biggest stick, you get to make the rules. I think that should be kept to within your own playground though, and not someone elses.


Hey, I'm not saying America is perfect! I'm just saying that when a thread starts and someone makes a point and the answer is "Well, everyone knows that Bush is a war-monger!"... 

That's what I mean by jingoism replacing reason. Passing off opinion as fact is just intellectual wanking. It's like a Michael Moore movie where he impresses his audience with his wit and humour and they then confuse this with being accurate.

Just because you like or don't like someone has nothing to do with right or wrong. People you like can make mistakes and people you don't like can still do good, on occasion. Your opinion of their character is a tool for you to establish a confidence rating in the worth of their future actions but you still have to pay attention.

I have met and dealt with a great many Americans and I find them to be no more or less "good citizens" than any other people. They do have a preponderance of ignorance of other countries but it's not just snobbishness. Most of them don't know much about affairs in the next state! We Canadians are offended by this ignorance but to label every American as rude and "ugly" is not only illogical but frankly, racist! Or more properly, "culturalist". Doesn't matter if you're white or black - you can still be rude!

One thing that cannot be denied is that many countries treat the US as a "wallet". We've been through two world wars and many police actions of various sizes where American wealth and soldiers swayed the outcome. I've asked before in this thread how many UN efforts were bankrolled in weapons and soldier blood by the USA, or how many were done with no USA resources at all. Surely someone overseas could be just a little grateful once in a while! Sometimes when I read about France's involvement in Iraq and middle eastern affairs I swear they'd support Charles Manson and supply Jeffrey Dahlmer with children for a cheap supply of oil and a customer for their products!

As for "sticking to your own back yard", I agree that sometimes they make things worse instead of better. Still, if you had followed things closely with the events leading up to invading Iraq and toppling Saddam you'd have seen that Bush was NOT the only one to make a mistake about weapons of mass distruction. The UN's own inspectors were convinced that he had them!

This wasn't surprising, considering that Saddam WANTED the world to think he had that kind of power! He counted on no one being willing to call his bluff. Obviously, he was wrong.

Not likely that there'll be many flowers sent by Kurdish mothers to Saddam's funeral, after he had gassed tens of thousands of them.

As always, even though all of those neighbouring countries (including the Arab ones!) were terrified of what Saddam could have done no one kicked in a nickel until the States began to deploy.

The world today is a much smaller place. Those peoples who think they can stay isolated from world affairs can easily wind up conquered or dead. Like any other unilateral policy, it does NOT take two to fight! It only takes one to start it. It often doesn't matter if you did nothing to provoke an attack. In fact, a thief or bully would prefer a meek and easy target. He'd have to be an idiot to take on a "Hulk Hogan" type country!

We Canadians remind me of hobbits in the Shire. We think that we're the only civilized country and everything else is "Queer as news from Bree!" We're blissfully unaware that our Shire is protected by foreign "Rangers" and if it's pointed out we then believe that somehow they're SUPPOSED to protect us!

So when you criticize American policies and actions I have to ask you - which ones are you talking about? I've found them over the years to be more good than bad but no record is perfect. 

Frankly, Canada has done some things that I'm not proud of as well...


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Hey, I'm not saying America is perfect! I'm just saying that when a thread starts and someone makes a point and the answer is "Well, everyone knows that Bush is a war-monger!"...


...wild bill, it is probably true that some people are anti-american simply because they are trend hoppers. however, i would caution you that they are probably a fairly small minority with large and loud opinions.

personally, i would much prefer NOT to be anti-american or, at the very least be proven wrong regarding american arrogance, which, truth be told, evidently pisses off a LOT of americans.

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> We Canadians....think that we're the only civilized country and everything else is "Queer as news from Bree!" We're blissfully unaware that our Shire is protected by foreign "Rangers" and if it's pointed out we then believe that somehow they're SUPPOSED to protect us!


...i personally don't know even one person who believes any of this. is this based on people you know, or on your own "perceptions"?

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> As for "sticking to your own back yard", I agree that sometimes they make things worse instead of better. Still, if you had followed things closely with the events leading up to invading Iraq and toppling Saddam you'd have seen that Bush was NOT the only one to make a mistake about weapons of mass distruction. The UN's own inspectors were convinced that he had them!


...i remember very clearly the events leading up to the iraq war. it appeared to me that saddam had been seriously cowed, backed into a corner, with the entire planet watching his every move. it seemed a very odd and inappropriet time to attack.

like pretty much everyone else in the world, i'm thrilled to see him removed from power. however, the concept of punishing saddam by slaughtering innocent iraqis and turning the entire country over to the powers of chaos is one that i'm having a difficult time grasping.

-dh


----------



## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

If Americans are ignorant, why is our entire culture based on theirs? Why are they the ones inventing so many things? Why are so many advances in the sciences being made by them? Why are so many Canadians wanting to attend their top schools? America has some amazingly bright minds, but people always focus on the negative, and think knowing Ottawa is the capital of Canada is the absolute measure of intelligence. As for Iraq, the US is blamed for all kinds of ongoing shit. But once they pull out and the civil war breaks out, everyone in the world will condemn them for leaving. When youre number one, you are under the scrutiny of all critics, and you can never do anything right.....................


----------



## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

I'd say I was anti american as far as there international politics go but as far as the average american person I'd treat him like a brother. Some of there elite politicians have some pretty zany ideas, we also have our share. But that is not the true representation of the people, politicians never are....
As for there military machine, there economy thrives on it, and ours.... the surplus stores do well.


----------



## Tarl (Feb 4, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> If Americans are ignorant, why is our entire culture based on theirs?


 Well thats news to me! I agree that our country has been highly infuenced by our large southern neighbor, probibly more than any other place in the world due to our geography. Our culture however is similar to theirs but unique in it,s own right. Look at language, music, film, food, sports....similar but unique. We have words like "toque", bands like "The Hip", poutine, 3 down football etc...as well as our own political and social structures. Our history is very different from the American,s which, I believe, makes us a bit more open to new ideas and a little less likely to take up arms without trying other methods to solve a problem first. The American people I have met have mostly seemed like good folks but their governments are increasingly becoming more paranoid and downright scary over the years (and alot of Americans feel the same way). I just finished watching the film V for Vendetta and could not help but think that the future British totalitarian government portrayed in the movie could well come to fruition in the U.S.A if they continue on the road of fear they seem to be leading their citizens down.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> If Americans are ignorant, why is our entire culture based on theirs? Why are they the ones inventing so many things? Why are so many advances in the sciences being made by them? Why are so many Canadians wanting to attend their top schools? America has some amazingly bright minds, but people always focus on the negative, and think knowing Ottawa is the capital of Canada is the absolute measure of intelligence. As for Iraq, the US is blamed for all kinds of ongoing shit. But once they pull out and the civil war breaks out, everyone in the world will condemn them for leaving. When youre number one, you are under the scrutiny of all critics, and you can never do anything right.....................


...i don't believe anyone is suggesting that america is not a great country full of great people and great accomplishments. just like many other great countries. but, uh, number one? please. in testosterone levels, perhaps.

-dh


----------



## Mahogany Martin (Mar 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...like pretty much everyone else in the world, i'm thrilled to see him removed from power. however, the concept of punishing saddam by slaughtering innocent iraqis and turning the entire country over to the powers of chaos is one that i'm having a difficult time grasping.
> 
> -dh


Nobody's punishing saddam by "slaughtering" innocent iraqis. You're thrilled to see him removed from power? What did you think, that the whole nation would have gently and amicably made it to the polls and voted for a successor? You might be having a difficult time grasping perhaps because you've made up your mind that the US is the provocator, the bully etc and that it's sole purpose for engaging in conflicts around the world is based on greed and the need to secure a connection to resources.

I'm not dismissing this speculative element altogether but to say that a nation such as the US is turning the entire country (Iraq) over to the powers of chaos is absolutely ludicrous. There's not a day that goes by now without hearing of another car bombing. These are not planned and executed by americans nor by the average Iraqi citizen.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Mahogany Martin said:


> Nobody's punishing saddam by "slaughtering" innocent iraqis. You're thrilled to see him removed from power? What did you think, that the whole nation would have gently and amicably made it to the polls and voted for a successor? You might be having a difficult time grasping perhaps because you've made up your mind that the US is the provocator, the bully etc and that it's sole purpose for engaging in conflicts around the world is based on greed and the need to secure a connection to resources.


...no, but you appear to have made up your mind regarding what i think, so: 

:rockon: 

-dh


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

One thing is clear. We (the west) have a problem on our hands. You can argue all day as to how it all got started. Whether it be age old religious beliefs, oil, culture, whatever. Iraq, Lebanon, Iran, Syria and all the rest. It boils down to how these issues are settled.

When I see footage of some of these leaders in the Arab countries on TV, where they are standing on a balcony firing weapons in the air. The visions of that half crazy bitch from Iraq doing that dance. Her and thousands more that were jubilant at the notion that a few thousand people got blown to bits on 9/11.. this is where the stark realization sets in that we here in the west are just simply on another level. Imagine for a moment George Bush or Stephan Harper standing out on a balcony or the white house lawn screaming and yelling and firing a .45 in the air. It's just ridiculous. You cannot negotiate with someone like that, or a people like that. You can leave them be... let them continue on... but where will that end up?

Everytime you see one of these fanatics they are holding guns. This is what they do, they dont talk, they kill. This is their negotiation tool. So if you are going to negotiate with them, be prepared to get down to their level. When you have a person, or a people that are willing to strap a bomb to themselves and gleefully detonate it.. truly believing they are doing god's work, then you are dealing with an enemy that will not stop until they are exterminated. Harsh but true. It is only a matter of time before they manage to successfully hit another major target.

Those vids of Bin Laden kill me. Sitting there firing machine guns while his minions stand behind him in ecstacy... think about it. It's the year 2006... where have we come as a species.

I tell you this. If we have any chance of survival as a species we need to rid the planet of these people. Call them whatever the hell you want. Hezbollah, Al Quiada.. whatever... they have to go. Because as Benjamin Netanyahu said to that half wit Gerarldo after 9/11..... "wake up Geraldo, do you think for one minute that if these people ever got their hands on a nuclear weapon that they would not use it?"


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> One thing is clear. We (the west) have a problem on our hands. You can argue all day as to how it all got started. Whether it be age old religious beliefs, oil, culture, whatever. Iraq, Lebanon, Iran, Syria and all the rest. It boils down to how these issues are settled.
> When I see footage of some of these leaders in the Arab countries on TV, where they are standing on a balcony firing weapons in the air. The visions of that half crazy bitch from Iraq doing that dance. Her and thousands more that were jubilant at the notion that a few thousand people got blown to bits on 9/11.. this is where the stark realization sets in that we here in the west are just simply on another level. Imagine for a moment George Bush or Stephan Harper standing out on a balcony or the white house lawn screaming and yelling and firing a .45 in the air. It's just ridiculous. You cannot negotiate with someone like that, or a people like that. You can leave them be... let them continue on... but where will that end up?
> Everytime you see one of these fanatics they are holding guns. This is what they do, they dont talk, they kill. This is their negotiation tool. So if you are going to negotiate with them, be prepared to get down to their level.
> Those vids of Bin Laden kill me. Sitting there firing machine guns while his minions stand behind him in ecstacy... think about it. It's the year 2006... where have we come as a species.
> I tell you this. If we have any chance of survival as a species we need to rid the planet of these people. Call them whatever the hell you want. Hezbollah, Al Quiada.. whatever... they have to go. Because as Benjamin Netanyahu said to that half wit Gerarldo after 9/11..... "wake up Geraldo, do you think for one minute that if these people ever got their hands on a nuclear weapon that they would not use it?"


...this is, to me, highly representative of the mistaken thinking in the west: making references to "those people", and believing that the only way to fight hate, intolerance and human slaughter is with even more hate, intolerance and human slaughter, ie getting down to their level.

if we simply turn this into a world war, we will all lose, big time, and the root problems will never be resolved, leaving the door wide open to sequels, assuming there is anyone left standing.

we have no choice but to "argue all day as to how it all got started". without that understanding, there is absolutely no hope for any kind of lasting resolution.

at some point, someone has to stand up and commit to being part of the solution, rather than part of the problem. that person is going to be very unpopular.

-dh


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Thats western thinking Dave. Thats the way you and I would settle our problems. If I dont like the god you praise or what you do in your personal life I don't slit your throat. I may debate it with you are even call you a fe names... but I am not going to kill you, blow up your family etc. 

You are assuming that all people are the same and that through clear headed talking and negotiation that issues can be resolved. Go and visit Osama in his cave and try that approach, I don't think it is going to work. What half normal human being would take a dull machete and saw a kids head off to prove his point or argument? Those people? Absolutely.


----------



## sneakypete (Feb 2, 2006)

I think how it started is less important than how are we gonna end it. if ever.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

sneakypete said:


> I think how it started is less important than how are we gonna end it. if ever.


...i'm not sure which is more, or less, important, but if we don't make the effort to understand the roots of the problems, we will be the losers.

just making assumptions, which is what are doing now, only makes things worse.

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> You are assuming that all people are the same and that through clear headed talking and negotiation that issues can be resolved. Go and visit Osama in his cave and try that approach, I don't think it is going to work. What half normal human being would take a dull machete and saw a kids head off to prove his point or argument? Those people? Absolutely.


...and you're _assuming_ that talking to al queda, hamas, plo, hezbollah et al is futile. 

while our methods are, at least for the most part, not quite as savage, we still use violence and the slaughter of innocent human lives to prove our point. AND, just like "those people", we claim to be the "good guys", AND to have god on OUR side.

you don't think they see us as "those people"?

-dh


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Just my thoughts Dave. I really do wish the way you present it is the way we could handle it. I really do. I have a feeling that if a jet liner were to crash into the Rogers Center with 40k sitting in it that a lot of Canadians would change their opinions (god forbid). Sometimes it's a lot easier to sit and watch all these things on TV when they really don't affect our day to day lives. For us it's always "over there" and "somewhere else". 

If you were some decent law abiding Iraqi that just wanted to go get some melons at the market and had their kids blown into 10 thousand pieces I think you would view these savages a little different. I know a lot of the people there blame the US right now for all that. But hopefully some day they will be able to enjoy the simple freedoms that we have known our whole lives. That's why so many people want to come here.


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*"Say it ain't so, Joe!"*



GuitarsCanada said:


> Just my thoughts Dave. I really do wish the way you present it is the way we could handle it. I really do. I have a feeling that if a jet liner were to crash into the Rogers Center with 40k sitting in it that a lot of Canadians would change their opinions (god forbid). Sometimes it's a lot easier to sit and watch all these things on TV when they really don't affect our day to day lives. For us it's always "over there" and "somewhere else".
> 
> If you were some decent law abiding Iraqi that just wanted to go get some melons at the market and had their kids blown into 10 thousand pieces I think you would view these savages a little different. I know a lot of the people there blame the US right now for all that. But hopefully some day they will be able to enjoy the simple freedoms that we have known our whole lives. That's why so many people want to come here.


I deliberately waited before jumping into this thread again. Your final posts with Dave made me a little sad and I wanted to digest the points fully before replying.

I truly wish that Dave was right but sadly I just believe his approach not only won't work but would lead to more harm.

The problem is that sometimes you're dealing with an opponent who doesn't play by the same rules as you. Radical islamists simply want more than we would be prepared to give. In many ways their goals are similar to what the world saw from nazi Germany.

How can I make such an assumption? BECAUSE THEY THEMSELVES TELL US SUCH, OVER AND OVER! No one made an assumption and put words in their mouth. They have told us over and over that they want Israel wiped off the map and they want their radical religious ways imposed on the entire world.

These people represent only a small minority of moslems but THEY are the ones with military power!

Talking to such types can never work, unless you are in a position of strength. Once I stumbled across a video clip on the Net showing a hostage having his throat slit and his head hacked off. I was sickened, and furious that the poster in the forum had given no warning and simply "ambushed" us into viewing the disgusting sight.

Some folks do evil because they can! And know they can get away with it! To negotiate with such personalities requires that first you have to take away their ability to hurt you. Otherwise you can end up dead and deaf to anything from then on.

You all may recall a short while ago a Canadian soldier was killed when he sat down to a "talk". Someone pulled out an axe and rushed him by surprise. Common sense says never to allow that to happen again.

I repeat, when the problem is that the other side wants more than you can allow and uses violent tactics then "niceness" just doesn't work. It's all very well to suggest that we have no choice but to try. How many of our side are we willing to have killed testing such tactics?

We constantly hear that violence never solves anything. That's got to be the most illogical statement ever made! Violence started world wars and violence also was necessary to end them. If your enemy is dead then you are no longer threatened. If your side was the aggressor and you won then you got what you wanted. The statement only makes sense in the context that violence begets violence and if your desired outcome is a violence-free world then that approach leads to failure. Change the definition to read "I want his stuff!" or "I want to prevent him from killing me and taking my stuff!" and violence can and sadly too often does result in a successful solution to your goal.

What makes me sad is that I would much rather live in Dave's world! I just can't see how such a world can be established and protected without the ability to use sufficient force. 

Does anybody remember the old "Billy Jack" movies? I think all of us would rather live with the hippy kids than in the "*******" town. The problem was that when the ******** attacked the hippy kids were totally defenseless. If Billy Jack hadn't have come along they would all have been "toast".

If the west pulls out of the middle east then what about all the non-radical moslems? They're suffering far more than we are. 

How would THEY feel about us bailing out on them?

Meanwhile, I have no solution to offer. Maybe the human race needs a few more centuries to grow up...


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Wild Bill,

"If the west pulls out of the middle east then what about all the non-radical moslems? They're suffering far more than we are. 

How would THEY feel about us bailing out on them?"



Freedom is worthless if it is given to you. If you want it, you should take it for yourself.

If Iraq wanted Saddam out so badly, they should have risen up and booted his a$$ out.

Same goes for the Radical jihadis. If moderate muslims want them gone, they have it within them to do so.


We have NO business over there and our (and I use that term loosely) presence is only making things worse in my opinion.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Radical islamists simply want more than we would be prepared to give. In many ways their goals are similar to what the world saw from nazi Germany.
> How can I make such an assumption? BECAUSE THEY THEMSELVES TELL US SUCH, OVER AND OVER! No one made an assumption and put words in their mouth. They have told us over and over that they want Israel wiped off the map....


...did they happen to mention why?

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Talking to such types can never work, unless you are in a position of strength.


...yes, that is the standard rhetoric: you cannot "talk" to the terrorists. however, rather than accept statements like this ("they hate us for our freedoms"), i prefer to ask "how do you know this?"

it is my suspicion that we assume way too much.

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> You all may recall a short while ago a Canadian soldier was killed when he sat down to a "talk". Someone pulled out an axe and rushed him by surprise. Common sense says never to allow that to happen again.


...and that, my friend, is how myths are made, and bogeymen created. it was an isolated incident, and representative of nothing. 

would you also claim that the rapes and murders of innocent people by american soldiers is representative of america in general?

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> We constantly hear that violence never solves anything. That's got to be the most illogical statement ever made! Violence started world wars and violence also was necessary to end them. If your enemy is dead then you are no longer threatened.


...your enemy would agree, coincidentally.

and, also coincidentally, your enemies are also males.

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> II repeat, when the problem is that the other side wants more than you can allow and uses violent tactics then "niceness" just doesn't work.


...yet another "assumption". i don't recall anyone suggesting "niceness". similarly, when any of us lefty lib peaceniks suggests talking, the immediate assumption is that we really mean "negotiate", or "give in".

*scratches head*

-dh


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...yet another "assumption". i don't recall anyone suggesting "niceness". similarly, when any of us lefty lib peaceniks suggests talking, the immediate assumption is that we really mean "negotiate", or "give in".
> 
> *scratches head*
> 
> -dh



Damned pinko- lefty- tree hugging- granola eating commie bastages.


I'll bet you also approve of gay marriage and legalizing the evil marijuana!!


Where's McCarthy when we need him, LOL.:food-smiley-004:


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Damned pinko- lefty- tree hugging- granola eating commie bastages.I'll bet you also approve of gay marriage and legalizing the evil marijuana!!Where's McCarthy when we need him, LOL.:food-smiley-004:


...no way, pal. i only resort to the evil marijuana when i run out of the good stuff.

:food-smiley-015: 

-dh


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...no way, pal. i only resort to the evil marijuana when i run out of the good stuff.
> 
> :food-smiley-015:
> 
> -dh


There you go again, making assumptions and putting words in people's mouths. Who says marijuana is good or evil?

It's simply delightful!


----------



## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> There you go again, making assumptions and putting words in people's mouths. Who says marijuana is good or evil?
> 
> It's simply delightful!



And that could start a whole new thread......


----------



## Xanadu (Feb 3, 2006)

i missed this whole conversation...14 pages??!! 

heehee marijuana. :tongue:


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> There you go again, making assumptions and putting words in people's mouths. Who says marijuana is good or evil?
> It's simply delightful!


...i seem to recall some homegrown from bc back in the early 80s that was pretty evil. however, if you smoked enough of the stuff, and were willing to tolerate the severe headaches, you might actually experience something resembling a buzz. i'm still not sure...:confused-smiley-010 

-dh


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...i seem to recall some homegrown from bc back in the early 80s that was pretty evil. however, if you smoked enough of the stuff, and were willing to tolerate the severe headaches, you might actually experience something resembling a buzz. i'm still not sure...:confused-smiley-010
> 
> -dh




LOL, it has undergone a significant improvement since then.


Back in the 70s you might just as well have smoked rope as homegrown.


----------



## Xanadu (Feb 3, 2006)

some turkish hacker took over my clan's server. ****ING TURKS!!


----------

