# The Concert Ticket Scam



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Well the scam continues with concert tickets. I don't know when this industry is going to get cleaned up and by whom. Tickets for two shows went on sale Thursday at the Niagara Fallsview Casino for Heart (two shows) and Boston (two shows) as Boston is one of my all time favorites I was on there the second they went on sale. My buddy wanted to see Heart so I tried for him to. The second I clicked on Boston 6 seats in the first row popped up and at quick glance there were plenty behind it. I selected two front row seats and hit the pay button (within 5 seconds) and got a pop up that someone beat me to the tickets. I hit the back button and every seat in the venue was gone for both shows. This all transpired within say 12 seconds. I switched over the Heart and all 3000 seats for both shows were gone. That's 6000 seats sold? in less that 10 seconds?

Within 20 minutes StubHub was full of tickets and more than double the face value.

I give up. This industry is rank with corruption, fraud and outright thievery.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Yeah, the old fashioned lineups at the ticket office were a pain in the ass but at least they were fair.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2015)

and the people you met while camping out were cool too.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

A few years ago I went to get tickets for a Brad Paisley concert at Copps in Hamilton. I was at the record store the minute they opened for sale and was first in line. All they had left was the very back high up for $120 a ticket. I said forget it. I wouldn't see anything from back there and the sound isn't great up close let alone from back there. So about a week from the date of the concert my wife comes home and says she heard on the radio that more tickets had been released. So we went back to see what that was about. We ended up getting 2 tickets for about $110 a piece that was close to the stage. Better seats than I ever would have expected. 
Friends of mine wanted my wife and I go to the Shania Twain concert with them. There from Timmins and we don't get to see them much so I said as long as you can get tickets for decent seats no more than $150 a ticket. I'm not really a big Shania fan but it would be fun to spend the evening with my friends. They ended up buyign 2 tickets at $250 a ticket. They said if we could find 4 tickets in our price range closer to the time they'd sell theres.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

My buddy ended up paying double the cost on Stubhub. I told him he was a fool. I refuse to pay these thieves


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

As long as people are willing to pay the price the practice will continue.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

The wife buys tickets for where she works....perks for good clients. In doing so she hears about concerts long before the tickets go on sale so she will reserve tickets if it's someone either of us want to see. She has the option of canceling the tickets a week before the show if something comes up. We did that for Skynrd last night.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Electraglide said:


> The wife buys tickets for where she works....perks for good clients. In doing so she hears about concerts long before the tickets go on sale so she will reserve tickets if it's someone either of us want to see. She has the option of canceling the tickets a week before the show if something comes up. We did that for Skynrd last night.


So, between what you're telling me, and what the OP complained about, pretty much everyone associated with "classic rock" is essentially playing "corporate gigs" these days. Nice to know that's where the long journey of counter-culture and rock took us.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

It's become a total farce. The money has caused it to go corrupt. In the days when bands made their money on album sales and concert tickets were $7 or $15 you could get them first come first served. Now that it has reversed itself and all the money comes from live concerts, the scam artists all moved it. When I say scam artists I am not necessarily talking about your street level scalper. This is way bigger than that.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> My buddy ended up paying double the cost on Stubhub. I told him he was a fool. I refuse to pay these thieves



I'm with you on this. Usually if its someone I want to see I set a max price and a threshold of how bad the seats can be. It turns out mostly I don't end up going unless I have some good luck. But then I don't care. Theres lots of youtbe footage of live performances that I enjoy and I don't have to put up with crowds, which is a personal pet peeve of mine anyway.
Lesser known acts can also provide me with great entertainment. I had gone to see Brit Floyd a few months back with tickets I won off a radio station. I had a great time.
I may never get to see acts like AC/DC or Billy Joel as it seems that level is ripe with corruption for tickets.
I have however seem Foreigner and Styx at the Casino in Orillia for $40 with great seats. It didn't bother me that no originals were in Foreigner or that Dennis Deyoung wasn't there for Styx. They were still great shows.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

I managed to get tickets for the Foo Fighters by being a member of their fan club and being able to buy tickets through their "beat the bots" presale. 

My daughters wanted tickets to Ed Sheernan (I think that what his name is). Anyways, I looked into TM about 3 min after ticket sale started and could not get 2 tickets side by side. Only a handful of single seats were available. It's BS. Too many scams going on.

I told my daughters to sign up to fan clubs for pre-sale notices in the future. Seems like the only way to legitimately get tickets at face value nowadays provided the artist offers them for pre-sale.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Going to big name concerts has become a rich man's game. Glad I've seen all my favourite bands already. Still lots of up and coming acts that can be seen in clubs and soft-seaters for good prices.

As much as I despise the scalpers buying up all the tickets with their 'bots, I have managed to get a lot of great seats through TM without the hassle of camping out overnight for tickets. It's sure getting harder now.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Ticket Master has been caught scamming in the past to get higher prices for tickets. I don't remember what happened to the charges. 

With a scam like this it makes me wonder who owns Stubhub.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> With a scam like this it makes me wonder who owns Stubhub.


Do you really need to ask?


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## dodgechargerfan (Mar 22, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Well the scam continues with concert tickets. I don't know when this industry is going to get cleaned up and by whom. Tickets for two shows went on sale Thursday at the Niagara Fallsview Casino for Heart (two shows) and Boston (two shows) as Boston is one of my all time favorites I was on there the second they went on sale. My buddy wanted to see Heart so I tried for him to. The second I clicked on Boston 6 seats in the first row popped up and at quick glance there were plenty behind it. I selected two front row seats and hit the pay button (within 5 seconds) and got a pop up that someone beat me to the tickets. I hit the back button and every seat in the venue was gone for both shows. This all transpired within say 12 seconds. I switched over the Heart and all 3000 seats for both shows were gone. That's 6000 seats sold? in less that 10 seconds?
> 
> Within 20 minutes StubHub was full of tickets and more than double the face value.
> 
> I give up. This industry is rank with corruption, fraud and outright thievery.


I had the same problem trying to get Heart tickets for my wife and I.
She started calling about a minute before the sale started and I was on the web page. 
I saw a similar thing as you saw happen, but she got through with the voice recognition system and got a floor ticket. But just a single. She stayed on and asked for more tickets and got another floor ticket in a different row.

I would say that the fan pre-sales would be to blame for the lack of available tickets but the web flashed a lot of available seats... It doesn't smell right.


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

Stratin2traynor said:


> I managed to get tickets for the Foo Fighters by being a member of their fan club and being able to buy tickets through their "beat the bots" presale.


This. 

I did the same for Santana in Montreal a couple of years ago. It took a minute to join the fan club and get tickets in the third or fourth row from the stage at box office price. They had been for sale for a while too.

Another trick that I've used a couple of times, to see Joe Bonamassa for instance, is to buy through a PBS Plattsburgh or Burlington membership drive. They have great tickets for Montreal and/or Quebec City shows often just a little more than face value but much less than the resellers. If you live close to the US border, check the nearest station's website.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Arena ticket prices are insane. Joe bonamassa is coming to London, but i dont have $90 for a show.

Im glad I like bands where $20 is on the high end.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2015)

I stay at home and watch dvd concerts.
I can pause n' get a beer anytime.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

DVD, TV specials and even YouTube now have concerts. I wanted to go see Neil Young in Toronto about seven years ago. The cheapest ticket I could find was $750.00. I like a lot of Neil's music. I don't like it that much.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

I wouldn't worry about it. I saw him a couple of years ago and it was totally uninspiring. Luckily I only paid about $50 per ticket. 



Budda said:


> Arena ticket prices are insane. Joe bonamassa is coming to London, but i dont have $90 for a show.
> 
> Im glad I like bands where $20 is on the high end.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> With a scam like this it makes me wonder who owns Stubhub.


eBay owns StubHub.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> The cheapest ticket I could find was $750.00. I like a lot of Neil's music. I don't like it that much.


I don't like anyone's music that much. I guess I like my music that much though as thats almost a 1/3 of the price of one of the guitars I'll be buying this week.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

$75 is too much for me for a lot of acts...


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

A lot of good acts come to the casinos in Calgary and there in lies the problem. May 16th The Headpins are going to be at the Deerfoot Casino. Tickets $35 to $45. Open gate if there is any seating left. That will probably be at least a $700+ week end. And neither of us drink anymore. Plus I have 4 tickets on reserve to go see the Who in October. $460 just for the tickets. The Who tickets were bought over the counter....we might wing it for the Headpins. We've walked into the Deerfoot the night of a show and got tickets. If I can't get ticket at thru Ticketmaster or at the venue I don't buy tickets. The scam to me is when you buy tickets online and when you get to the concert the tickets "aren't worth the paper they are printed on.".


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Well the scam continues with concert tickets. I don't know when this industry is going to get cleaned up and by whom. Tickets for two shows went on sale Thursday at the Niagara Fallsview Casino for Heart (two shows) and Boston (two shows) as Boston is one of my all time favorites I was on there the second they went on sale. My buddy wanted to see Heart so I tried for him to. The second I clicked on Boston 6 seats in the first row popped up and at quick glance there were plenty behind it. I selected two front row seats and hit the pay button (within 5 seconds) and got a pop up that someone beat me to the tickets. I hit the back button and every seat in the venue was gone for both shows. This all transpired within say 12 seconds. I switched over the Heart and all 3000 seats for both shows were gone. That's 6000 seats sold? in less that 10 seconds?
> 
> Within 20 minutes StubHub was full of tickets and more than double the face value.
> 
> I give up. This industry is rank with corruption, fraud and outright thievery.


Sad, and maybe to some extent, a result of there being nothing else left for people to plunder now that so many consider recorded music free for the looting.

Since there no money to be made selling CDs anymore, the thieves must captialize on the remaining booty.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2015)

Honest question: what's the scam here? I get that tickets are expensive and that demand is high and online ticket buying means there's essentially no line any more for buying tickets. Their sold in parallel at a rate of sale that's unprecedented.

But how's that a scam?

The StubHub thing is kind of tagental to the rapid rales rate, right? It's...sort of an organized arena for scalping. But people trying to profit off scarcity and popularity isn't a new thing, right? If the market won't bear $700 for a $70 face value ticket, the practice will die off pretty quick, right? It's a pretty self-correcting market IMO. And none of the StubHub returns make it back to the promoter or the artist. StubHub gets a cut, but the bulk of the profit goes to the person who put the ticket up for sale (and, arguably, took the biggest risk so it kind of makes sense they'd reap the biggest reward).

The problem seems to be you can transfer tickets. It makes it easy to over buy and know that you can flip your excess tickets for a profit. I'm guilty of this. I just did it for The Hip show -- a friend and I both bought 4 tickets when they went on sale and we kept the 4 best (turned out to be mine) and sold the others (though we only marked them up enough to cover exactly what we paid for them after StubHub fees were applied). If we couldn't transfer tickets, we wouldn't have done that.

Or maybe it's just human greed? People can be scalpers from their armchairs now. No need to go get in line, pay people to line up, stand outside the venue and hawk your tickets now...


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I wonder how they get them so fast that others can't get them with a minute or so of going online. Do they have some super setup that allows them to do this?


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

I think it boils down to it being a shitty thing to do. It cuts the regular joe out of the market because they can't or won't pay 5 times face value for a ticket. My daughter desperately wanted to see Sam Smith and then Ed Sheernan. Unbeknownst to me she saved her money from babysitting so she could buy the ticket herself. Do you think I could get tickets when I logged in to TM a minute or so after tickets went on sale? Nope. Oh if wanted to pay 3 or 4 times face value I could. Best I could find were nose bleeds for 4 times face value. We both agreed that, even though I was paying, that was ridiculous. 

I'm sure true capitalists think that's just fine but I disagree. There are things in this world that are more important than the almighty dollar. 




iaresee said:


> Honest question: what's the scam here? I get that tickets are expensive and that demand is high and online ticket buying means there's essentially no line any more for buying tickets. Their sold in parallel at a rate of sale that's unprecedented.
> 
> But how's that a scam?
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> I wonder how they get them so fast that others can't get them with a minute or so of going online. Do they have some super setup that allows them to do this?


Possibly using the same type of software as Wall Street where millions of shares are traded in milliseconds.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> I wonder how they get them so fast that others can't get them with a minute or so of going online. Do they have some super setup that allows them to do this?


They write "bot" programs to buy the tickets by the sounds of it.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2015)

Budda said:


> They write "bot" programs to buy the tickets by the sounds of it.


Captchas make that very, very hard. I'm guessing they scale it with cheap, human labour. A room full of people in Vietnam buying tickets for you is fairly inexpensive. But I also think it's less organized, that you have more individuals who do it for some small side income now with less risk. Kind of like that thing where people would go to garage sales and then flip the shit they buy on eBay for a profit.


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## Guest (Mar 16, 2015)

Stratin2traynor said:


> I think it boils down to it being a shitty thing to do.


What is (honest question) a shitty thing to do? I ask because I see two things being discussed here:

Thing 1: The new world of buying tickets online means the ticketing agency can sell all the tickets almost simultaneously. That means things sell really, really, really f'ing quickly. In the not-too-distant past, physical line ups and less-than-optimal ticket sales kiosks limited the rate at which tickets could be sold. You had a natural rate limit between the time something went on sale and the time it sold it. We've pretty much removed that completely now. Things sell out as fast as the ticketing agency's back end can handle the parallel sales and validate the credit card transactions. Which is: very freakin' fast.

Thing 2: StubHub and its ilk have basically made scalping so damn easy and profitable it's hard not to do it. Anyone can scalp without ever having to do a face-to-face transaction. They even provide _insurance_ for purchasers making the risk of buying scalped tickets lower than ever. It's both an awesome thing and a stupid thing all at the same time. I know I've used it last-minute to get tickets (saw an AWESOME St Vincent show in LA last year that I wouldn't have been able to get tickets to otherwise because the weekend trip was pretty last minute) and I've used to sell of my extra tickets in a handy way. But we're also seeing it drive prices through the roof for in-demand concerts from people who are just floating the expense and had no intention of going to see the show to being with -- pure scalpers you could say.



> It cuts the regular joe out of the market because they can't or won't pay 5 times face value for a ticket.


I think only Thing 2 above is doing this, maybe, right? Thing 1 is arguably better for everyone, even though it sucks for everyone at the same time, because it's about as fair and fair can be when it comes to getting tickets. You're not limited to on sale access by how many days you could take off work to line up in advance.

And Thing 2 -- I feel like that's a super self-regulating thing. Those tickets wouldn't sell for 10x if there weren't people willing to pay that. But apparently there are (crazy!) so it's not out of the reach of the average joe then by induction, maybe? I think we're just on the cusp of StubHub being a "thing" and it's peaking, but will quickly taper off as it's unsustainable. That's my wholly gut-feeling based assessment and not based on reality, facts or figures in any way, shape or form.



> My daughter desperately wanted to see Sam Smith and then Ed Sheernan. Unbeknownst to me she saved her money from babysitting so she could buy the ticket herself. Do you think I could get tickets when I logged in to TM a minute or so after tickets went on sale? Nope. Oh if wanted to pay 3 or 4 times face value I could. Best I could find were nose bleeds for 4 times face value. We both agreed that, even though I was paying, that was ridiculous.


That sucks. Big time.



> I'm sure true capitalists think that's just fine but I disagree. There are things in this world that are more important than the almighty dollar.


I am far, far from a "pure capitalist" or libertarian or anything like that. And I love live music and want to see it, affordably, when I have the time. I just think these systems are temporarily throwing things out of whack and they'll come back to reality. It only takes one or two times where you can't sell your $120 Beyonce tickets for $1200 before you stop trying to do that.

Also: consider still planning to attend the show but missing the first 10 minutes. You can buy those tickets often _below_ face value once it starts because then people are just trying to cut their losses; stem the bleeding. In one sense, StubHub and scalping economies show Laffer-type curves on such a cool, short and aggressive time scale.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Budda said:


> Arena ticket prices are insane. Joe bonamassa is coming to London, but i dont have $90 for a show.
> 
> Im glad I like bands where $20 is on the high end.



$90?

Obstructed view behind the toilette?

I agree. Ticket prices are out to lunch.

When live music finally becomes the domain of the rich, it will move back into the kitchens and basements, where average people can enjoy it again.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I feel like Joe and his crew are worth $90 to see, i just dont have it available for that specific use. Thats a lot of $5 shows!


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Maybe I'm lucky but I've seen so many arena shows and stadium shows that I don't care about them anymore. Pretty well any band I haven't seen at that level, I don't want to. And most of those bands have a DVD or two I can buy. Kick-arse hi-fi and TV and I can enjoy it over and over again. So can my neighbors!!!

I still like to see the occasional new band on the way up or old guys on the way down at a casino or theatre show, and they're usually not overly expensive or that much in demand to attract the professional scalpers. As someone said, if this keeps going on, pro's will price themselves out of business (except for the wanna-be-scene crowd) and people will come and hear us muckers. They might even like it.



Electraglide said:


> A lot of good acts come to the casinos in Calgary and there in lies the problem. May 16th The Headpins are going to be at the Deerfoot Casino. Tickets $35 to $45. Open gate if there is any seating left. *That will probably be at least a $700+ week end.* And neither of us drink anymore. Plus I have 4 tickets on reserve to go see the Who in October. $460 just for the tickets. The Who tickets were bought over the counter....we might wing it for the Headpins. We've walked into the Deerfoot the night of a show and got tickets. If I can't get ticket at thru Ticketmaster or at the venue I don't buy tickets. The scam to me is when you buy tickets online and when you get to the concert the tickets "aren't worth the paper they are printed on.".


Why a weekend? It can't be more than a 20 minute drive from Red Deer to the Deerfoot Casino on Hwy 2. 30 min if your vehicle can't sustain 250 kph, I suppose.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> Maybe I'm lucky but I've seen so many arena shows and stadium shows that I don't care about them anymore. Pretty well any band I haven't seen at that level, I don't want to. And most of those bands have a DVD or two I can buy. Kick-arse hi-fi and TV and I can enjoy it over and over again. So can my neighbors!!!
> 
> I still like to see the occasional new band on the way up or old guys on the way down at a casino or theatre show, and they're usually not overly expensive or that much in demand to attract the professional scalpers. As someone said, if this keeps going on, pro's will price themselves out of business (except for the wanna-be-scene crowd) and people will come and hear us muckers. They might even like it.
> 
> ...


Why a week end? Hit Kanes, some other Harley places, a few pawn shops and music shops, Army and Navy and of course the casinos. Plus see my son and his girlfriend and take the adoptive daughter out for the show. If we take the bikes we might go thru Cochrane and down to Bragg Creek. Edmonton is the up, see the show and then back to Red Deer.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> Why a weekend? It can't be more than a 20 minute drive from Red Deer to the Deerfoot Casino on Hwy 2. 30 min if your vehicle can't sustain 250 kph, I suppose.


Then you add the speeding ticket to the cost of the weekend (at 250...)


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Budda said:


> I feel like Joe and his crew are worth $90 to see, i just dont have it available for that specific use. Thats a lot of $5 shows!


I think $90 would be fine. When I was pricing tickets to one of his shows last year, for half decent seats it was much more than $90.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I think $90 would be fine. When I was pricing tickets to one of his shows last year, for half decent seats it was much more than $90.


I dont know what the seats were, I just remembered the price. I was very excited to find out hes coming.

I may just loiter by the trailers and hope to see him haha.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

It's the free market at work, even if the fix is in, and no one is forced to pay the price. I vote with my pocket book.

Support your local music market and feed a local musician in the process (and have enough money left over to feed yourself).


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Pot, meet kettle http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12584885/stubhub-sues-golden-state-warriors-alleging-monopoly


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

keto said:


> Pot, meet kettle http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12584885/stubhub-sues-golden-state-warriors-alleging-monopoly


Greed is still alive and prospering.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

It all comes back to supply and demand in my opinion.

As others have pointed out, as long as someone is willing to pay more than I am for a concert ticket, that's what the tickets will sell for and I'll be relegated to watching the concert DVD at home.

The side effect of that is that many of us will get accustomed to this condition and will eventually lose interest in driving to another city, parking, paying for dinner and maybe a hotel just to pay hundreds of dollars to sit in the same room as a performer.

I can still afford to go to Stratford to see world class performances. I guess it's Man of La Mancha or Tommy for me.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2015)

same here. heck, you don't even need to buy a 
dvd anymore. you can find full concerts on YT.


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## fretboard (May 31, 2006)

https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/20...ub-cyberscalper-will-be-extradited-to-the-us/


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2015)

fretboard said:


> https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/20...ub-cyberscalper-will-be-extradited-to-the-us/


Lol at that article -- selling them in person, at the venue is heinous, but selling them online is not.

The world is a funny place.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

The CBC had a new item on this very thing today.

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/Canada/BC/ID/2661662739/


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

wow $800 to see maroon5. Are they that good?


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> wow $800 to see maroon5. Are they that good?


No.
I saw them last year for $40 with Kelly Clarkson, on Groupon. The price was about right. Parking likely costed almost that much as well. Pretty generic show. but if you like their songs (they do have a fair amount of hits), YMMV.
I don't really go to concerts if they aren't on Groupon. I just don't value them that much, and am just as happy with a DVD concert instead.
I cant think of very many bands that do anything special in their live shows really, and that includes some of the greats like the Stones.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i just want to point out something no one likes to mention. you're favorite artist knows all about this practice, and is doing NOTHING about it.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> i just want to point out something no one likes to mention. you're favorite artist knows all about this practice, and is doing NOTHING about it.


Actually they are. They are letting it continue by doing nothing about it and supporting it by thus doing nothing.


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