# Theory or music. One and the same?



## wnpgguy (Dec 21, 2007)

I've been playing guitar for two years roughly and I have pushed myself as a bedroom dweller on my own to learn alot of theory. I seem to know my way around the guitar although when it comes to producing music with other players it seem to be a whole different story. Sure I can through down any scale or arpegio pattern but its tt's like I'm all bark and no bite.

I'm thinking its time I just take a break from theory work and focus on learning songs or creating songs. What do you guys think?


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## GuyB (May 2, 2008)

I went through something similar. Theory is important and, in my view, essential. It helps you understand but it's not what's gonna make your fingers sing and transmit the music you have in you. Learning songs or creating them, as you say, is O.K. But, from my experience, playing with others, on a regular basis, just jamming, will help greatly to bring you to simply let the music flow.


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## wnpgguy (Dec 21, 2007)

I see what you mean. Theory although very dull sometimes is really usefull. I guess I just feel like I hit a musicians plataue were you just feel lost and utterly useless as a player. 

But...over the last couple of days I've gotten to play with other guitar players and just jam/mess around. I can finally see my theory coming to use. He (the other guitar player) would play a couple chords and I would just solo over that and it would evolve to a sweet random jam. 

I can see my hard work learning theory is paying off. I really just needed a reminder to take a break from it once in a while. Just practicing scale riffs and stuff over and over is dull. Let loose and create.


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## soundhound6 (Jun 30, 2008)

*Music Theory*

:smilie_flagge17: Hey Folks, Newbie from The Peg here for my first pitstop.
Just wanted to say HI and make a comment or 2.I'm a soundhound who loves to noodle with blues,jazz and of course, rock of various kinds. The last time I took any theory,was in the late 60's, when I took bagpipe lessons and joined a pipeband! 
I can really appreciate the idea of learning the "language" to be a total pro. For my needs, my ears have been my buddies for years and just play what
sounds/feels right.I've learned my way around the neck and have a sense of the chords I pull my runs of notes from. Ask me to play an A9th augmented,
I'm lost! I've come to believe that if it sounds right,then it probably is 
right.Do what you feel is the best course of action for YOU! Like the Beatle
song says..." Life's what happens to you ,while you're busy making other
plans..." The circumstances of our lives also creep into all these choices!
Last year, the factory I worked in for 26 years,shut down and moved to California.These circumstances ended in my having to sell my PRS Custom 22!:frown: My prized possesion got sold to a great guy in Belgium, who's a pro and endorser for Brian May guitars in europe.I'm glad he had the winning bid, 'cause I know it went to a good home.Well...time to hit the sack.See you later, Jan:food-smiley-004:


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I think they're inter-related but not the same. 
To me, theory is akin to math or physics, whereas music is akin to engineering and architecture. Although the latter can get by without the former, its rarely pretty. And the former without the latter is pretty boring.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Every thing you do has a theoretical side and a practical side. The better versed you are at theory the better you'll be at the practical side. Theory + experience = accomplished. Through my theory lessons I am now taking I am quickly realizing the vast potential.
The OP made mention that they were going to take a rest from theory and create. Seems like a bit of a contradiction.


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## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

You learn theory to get to know your instrument, the scales, modes etc. To play music is an expression of you, you take the theory and mix it with feel. When I play I hear the music in my head and then attempt to transfer it to my hands. Sometimes when I practise I try to play with my vocal, a thing a lot of guitars players have incorporated into there acts. If you can understand where I am coming from here it is a nice break from the humdrum of theory practise and can hone in your jamming skills. :rockon:


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## dbts808 (Sep 5, 2020)

wnpgguy said:


> I've been playing guitar for two years roughly and I have pushed myself as a bedroom dweller on my own to learn alot of theory. I seem to know my way around the guitar although when it comes to producing music with other players it seem to be a whole different story. Sure I can through down any scale or arpegio pattern but its tt's like I'm all bark and no bite.
> 
> I'm thinking its time I just take a break from theory work and focus on learning songs or creating songs. What do you guys think?





wnpgguy said:


> I've been playing guitar for two years roughly and I have pushed myself as a bedroom dweller on my own to learn alot
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Music is a language.
You can become a good speaker without ever learning the rules of grammar, syntax, and punctuation.
However, you would sometimes make big mistakes that an educated person would not.
Blend theory and practice.
Learn about Pentatonic, Blues and Mixolydian scales, practice them, play along to Blues jams on video (see Kirk Fletcher), and THEN go and apply all of that in a real-life situation.
It’s not either/or; it’s “both” when it comes to theory and practice.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Another necro post... this one is 12 years old. I wonder how the OP has improved. He hasn't been around since 2011. LOL


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

Learn melodies. And write melodies. All
Music is accompaniment to melody. Theory will always make you a more
Confident player. Just have fun. Your ear doesn’t lie.


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## nman (Sep 14, 2019)

Takes time to physically learn how to play. More time to learn theory. Even more time to sit with a guitar and apply theory. Bonus: your ear will develop and you'll find it easier, and inspirational, to play and create music. It's all good.


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## Waldo97 (Jul 4, 2020)

Theory is a description of what musicians actually do. Can't imagine it's any harm and is probably good for filling in gaps in your experience and understanding.


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## dbts808 (Sep 5, 2020)

nman said:


> Takes time to physically learn how to play. More time to learn theory. Even more time to sit with a guitar and apply theory. Bonus: your ear will develop and you'll find it easier, and inspirational, to play and create music. It's all good.


Like an athlete trains different muscle groups, we can work on sub-categories of music.
So for ear training starters, download an ear training app or two. “Good Ear” has “Melody” and “Chords”.
Those 2 apps (free?)
will get your ears in shape.
In shape, like an athlete.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

there's no theory substitute for the experience of playing with other people
even if you only ever plan to play solo there's no theory substitute for performing for an audience
even an audience of one - conscript your partner or kid or a buddy
or even an audience of none set up your phone and record yourself performing a piece from start to finish
it's kinda cringe inducing the first bunch of times but you cannot swap that experience out for more theory
theory is great to the extent that it adds to music but it doesn't ever replace that relationship between players or between player and audience
j


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## dbts808 (Sep 5, 2020)

There is indeed no substitute for playing live, jamming with other people.
That is where you apply what you have “woodshedded”.
After decades of playing live and studying Jazz, I finally figured out how to always know the “function” of the note I’m playing against the “chord-of-the-moment”.
Just as you know when you are playing the root/1 of the chord, you can know the function of every note against that chord.
Here is both E strings, frets 0 to 5, analyzed against an E chord:
1-b2-2-b3-3-4.
I’d love it if somebody could show me this makes sense to them by analyzing 0 to 5th fret of the A string against an E major chord.
I’d love to see that.
I want to communicate this idea to others.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

dbts808 said:


> I’d love it if somebody could show me this makes sense to them by analyzing 0 to 5th fret of the A string against an E major chord.
> I’d love to see that.


I think I'm understanding this.
E major continuing on A string; 4-♭5-5-♭6-6-♭7, continued on G string ♭7-7?


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

dbts808 said:


> no substitute for playing live, jamming with other people.


those are also two almost completely separate skills 
jamming - figuring stuff out on the fly in musical conversation with other players and performing to a high level for an audience are not the same 
your buddy who is funny as hell over coffee break at work with 4 friends can't necessarily give an eloquent speech before an attentive audience of strangers 
j


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

What f'n algorithms are going on here with these old threads popping up all the time?

Good topic I guess so I'll leave a comment.

Here is a truth to take with you;

When you make the break-out from private theoretical work to playing with others, the very first order of business is the groove. If you don't have that- and most don't- you need to practice timing drills. You have to know that when you play a note- assuming it's not a wrong note- it is placed in a specific moment in time. Know where it is and where you are putting it and why you are putting it there. Helping the groove will take you far. Playing fancy notes? Not so much.


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## Waldo97 (Jul 4, 2020)

zztomato said:


> What f'n algorithms are going on here with these old threads popping up all the time?
> 
> Good topic I guess so I'll leave a comment.
> 
> ...


Amen, halleluja.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

zztomato said:


> What f'n algorithms are going on here with these old threads popping up all the time?
> 
> Good topic I guess so I'll leave a comment.
> 
> ...


You can just play the root note and sound ok if you are in the groove. You play an incredible run and sound like crap if you’re not.


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## nman (Sep 14, 2019)

There is no substitute for learning theory. And I'm glad for this "f'n" thread. Don't be grumpy men.


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## teleboli (Aug 19, 2009)

Music came first and then theory was developed later to explain what was happening musically. There's the answer really.

But ya, know as much theory as is useful to you. Ask Paul McCartney about reading music or music theory. I've heard him give some humorous answers.

Music and theory. In that order I suppose.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Saw some talk of groove and rhythm. That's ties directly into the applied theory principle in my experience. Dig into the theory of rhythmic structure and see where it takes you in your "random jam". May not be as random as you think. Depending on the players of course.


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## Waldo97 (Jul 4, 2020)

Dorian2 said:


> … May not be as random as you think. Depending on the players of course.


_sigh_


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Waldo97 said:


> _sigh_


Not sure I understand this. Also not sure why you left the rest of my post out. Can you explain?


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## Waldo97 (Jul 4, 2020)

Dorian2 said:


> Not sure I understand this. Also not sure why you left the rest of my post out. Can you explain?


My own experience at jams is that far too many players have no great understanding of groove and rhythm. That's all.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Waldo97 said:


> My own experience at jams is that far too many players have no great understanding of groove and rhythm. That's all.


Exactly. That's why I suggested that some basic theory, or understanding, of basic time signature and rhythm theory would be very beneficial to anybody playing with others. As far as the "not as random as you think" quotation, I was referring to specific circumstances in the understanding of this basic principle. I'm not sure if someone without a relatively sound knowledge of music and time theory would do well in a Jam consisting of say....Prog Metal musicians or Jazz players, etc.... Even with seemingly basic Blues certain techniques like playing just ahead or before the beat to create tension or a more relaxed feel is pretty key. Especially when attempting to create specific moods. Of course this theory is also heavily dependant on experience and style of music.


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## Waldo97 (Jul 4, 2020)

My theory is fine, I studied music in university, but I also put a lot of emphasis on listening. Listening to the other players and listening to the kind of music you're playing. When I'm gigging early jazz, that's what I listen to. Just makes sense. At the same time, I'm very interested in the history of the songs I sing and in how they are put together. There's the theory part. I'm working on a "better" graphical system for understanding chord progressions. Like this:


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Yes...the listening part is extremely important. I wasn't talking specifically about your own theory and understanding. My initial point was to relate that having some theoretical knowledge, even in its most basic form, can really up pretty much any players game in specific situations 

Interesting chart concept with the AABA form included. Curious how you find changing the current Roman numeral system being used now to a number system with ascending and descending chords? It can make things clearer though. How do you propose to include key signatures?


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## Waldo97 (Jul 4, 2020)

Dorian2 said:


> …
> Interesting chart concept with the AABA form included. Curious how you find changing the current Roman numeral system being used now to a number system with ascending and descending chords? It can make things clearer though. How do you propose to include key signatures?


I haven't used Roman numerals in forty years. I'm taking my lead here from Nashville Number System notation which is in fairly widespread current use. As with NN, this format is key-agnostic. The whole point of the design is to clarify the _relationships_ between chords and groups of chords within the current key, whatever it may be. This is simpler for country songs than for old pop songs but it's not really daunting. I keep trying out these charts on the piano and it's harder than what I've been using for 45 years but I'll get there with time and I'll be just a little bit more multilingual. Currently, the key I actually play the song in is beside the composer and date line of the chart.

I ordered and just received _The Nashville Number System Fake Book_ which has a nice description of that notation and 200 country standards in NN. I'd hoped to learn how to deal with minor keys but the description isn't backed up by any examples. In 200 country songs there are _none_ in minor. "Jolene" would have served.

The project itself is teaching me quite a bit. For example, there are _very_ few AABA songs before the mid-20s and then suddenly there's hardly anything else. I'd love to take a close look at that.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Thanks for clarifying. I'm not at all familiar with the Nashville system so appreciate the feedback.


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## Waldo97 (Jul 4, 2020)

Dorian2 said:


> Thanks for clarifying. I'm not at all familiar with the Nashville system so appreciate the feedback.


It's an interesting notion. Apparently very popular (maybe standard) in Nashville. I certainly get why it makes transposing simpler -- useful for studio players and sidemen of all sorts. It has some other features that make it very compact so that the entire song can be shown on a single page with directions for the sidemen and all that, verse by verse.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Waldo97 said:


> It's an interesting notion. Apparently very popular (maybe standard) in Nashville. I certainly get why it makes transposing simpler -- useful for studio players and sidemen of all sorts. It has some other features that make it very compact so that the entire song can be shown on a single page with directions for the sidemen and all that, verse by verse.


After looking up the Nashville system, my above quote about not being familiar to me is false. lol. I've been doing the same thing for years except that I'm visualizing and writing it down with the Roman Numerals instead. It's great to know because now if someone that needs a progression explained in a way that they're more used to... using the Nashville system, or something like yours, might prove to be a little easier as that's the numbering system we use on a daily basis. I'm speaking from a teacher/student perspective here. I'll test this with my daughter to see if she can see progressions more clearly than the numerals.

Thanks for that.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Waldo97 said:


> I haven't used Roman numerals in forty years. I'm taking my lead here from Nashville Number System notation which is in fairly widespread current use. As with NN, this format is key-agnostic. The whole point of the design is to clarify the _relationships_ between chords and groups of chords within the current key, whatever it may be. This is simpler for country songs than for old pop songs but it's not really daunting. I keep trying out these charts on the piano and it's harder than what I've been using for 45 years but I'll get there with time and I'll be just a little bit more multilingual. Currently, the key I actually play the song in is beside the composer and date line of the chart.
> 
> I ordered and just received _The Nashville Number System Fake Book_ which has a nice description of that notation and 200 country standards in NN. I'd hoped to learn how to deal with minor keys but the description isn't backed up by any examples. In 200 country songs there are _none_ in minor. "Jolene" would have served.
> 
> The project itself is teaching me quite a bit. For example, there are _very_ few AABA songs before the mid-20s and then suddenly there's hardly anything else. I'd love to take a close look at that.


I would really like to know your thoughts on that book, when you've had time to look it over. Advanced players only? (Which would rule me out..) 
If the NN system is like the Roman numerals as Dorian2 says then I think I can follow it.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

tomee2 said:


> I would really like to know your thoughts on that book, when you've had time to look it over. Advanced players only? (Which would rule me out..)
> If the NN system is like the Roman numerals as Dorian2 says then I think I can follow it.


Beyond learning the notation, the book is as simple or difficult as you make it. You get the chords (which are generally pretty straightforward) but how you actually play them is your affair. The book was worth the money to me even though I mostly don't need charts for the songs in the book. Just interested in notations.


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

Back when midi notation came out I started trying it for guitar notation instead of simply writing things out on the staff. The result was interesting because the exercise of drawing bar code lines to notate polyphony and harmony produces some interesting pictures that look almost like some modern art. 

The whole point of this post is: regardless of which system one uses for the guitar or any instrument nothing comes close to standard notation in ease of describing a melody with harmony in time. 
Bach was forced to use organ tablature quite frequently, but only when he started to run out of paper. He would do it so that he could write out long pieces on two large sheets for the next service he had to create music, but that was only with his liturgical compositions. The marvel is that Bach also had the ability to notate a groove in such a way that it jumps off the paper. When I study some of his music from a reliable urtext source I come to realise that there can be ambiguity deliberately notated in some of his music. The genius of his harmonic ideas is that they can at times be very ambiguous and the notation of harmony that was used by baroque composers was frequently deliberately ambiguous. Sometimes by simply shifting accents while playing the music of Bach the player can discover all kinds of new and wonderful harmonic possibilities. 

To play the exact harmonies, melodies and rhythms of Jerome Kern is wonderful in itself but to find the ambiguities possible in the structure is the real job of the musician. Build your groove within a groove, that way what is old becomes new again. An old soft shoe groove from a composer with as much taste as Kern is a great place to start.

Theory and music are one and the same, in answer to the OP of this long standing interesting thread. Studying the history of music is as important as just taking for granted what creates harmony and dissonance. If one then listens to music from all over the world, it becomes clear that so called Western music is ready for anything that a musician can throw at it, minor modes do not have to be sad, major sounding modes do not have to be all bright and cheery. And most importantly the accent does not have to be on the beat all the time and 9/8 can swing just as hard as 8 to the bar if you get in the groove! Just watch out for the 3 in the time of 2 group and 2 in the time of 3, learn to do hemiola in compound duplemeter and bingo a whole world of music harmony and theory opens up. Except perhaps creating tone rows from the chromatic scale or whole tone tonalities or micro-tonal playing.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

tomee2 said:


> I would really like to know your thoughts on that book, when you've had time to look it over. Advanced players only? (Which would rule me out..)
> If the NN system is like the Roman numerals as Dorian2 says then I think I can follow it.


I looked over the book then lent it to my guitar player so we can talk about it. It's got a good description of the notation and rationale behind it. There are iirc 100 songs. They are the kind of songs you'd expect in a country fake book, which is fine by me. I was bemused to find that there were no examples in minor keys, though. Not one.

And yes, at heart the NN system is like Roman numerals and what we used to use for "harmonic analysis."


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