# Vintage or Modern



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

What is your main amp? Vintage or modern


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## Latiator (Jul 18, 2007)

A Mesa/Boogie Express 5:50 has been my main squeeze for close to 5 years. It's an incredibly versatile and reliable amplifier, nothing but love and respect for it! :wave:


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

Currently my main amps are modern vintage. 

They are both hand built by a fellow named Cox, one's a 57 Deluxe and the other is a 57 Super both finished in tweed. If I'm using one of them it's the deluxe.

I use to switch around between various vintage Fenders, my favorites being a 65 Princeton Reverb and a 58 Deluxe but I find them too delicate and valuable to be hauling around. I have a 63 Blond Tremolux and 65 Bandmaster that were great for filling large spaces. I really love both of them but hauling them around seemed a little crazy though they seem more stable perhaps because of the seperate head. 

In the end the Cox Amps work for me and in bigger spaces miking them works just fine. I'm sure there is many great sounding modern amps but I'm fond of the sound that Leo created.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Modern, Traynor YCV50 and YCV20, though I suspect there's not much modern about their design as they're tube amps with nothing fancy besides tone. I also have a nice solid state Traynor (DG30D) with some blendable fx built in, but it's not my main amp. 

Peace, Mooh.


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## zurn (Oct 21, 2009)

I voted modern event thought I use a reissue AC30. Are we talking vintage as in 60-70's amps or 60-70's designed circuits?


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

For a nice clean tone I use the '67 Fender Super Reverb. I do sometines run some pedals through it. But for everything ele I am using modern amps, some SS in there as well.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

zurn said:


> I voted modern event thought I use a reissue AC30. Are we talking vintage as in 60-70's amps or 60-70's designed circuits?


For the purposes of this poll I would say vintage as in made in the the 60's 70's timeframe


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

zurn said:


> I voted modern event thought I use a reissue AC30. Are we talking vintage as in 60-70's amps or 60-70's designed circuits?


thats a good question...i too have the YCS50H..but for the most part, cuz of the band i'm in, i leave it on the "clean" channel but in british mode...so i get good 70's and 80's noise


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

when you say vintage, do you mean vintage, or vintage voiced?


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

blam said:


> when you say vintage, do you mean vintage, or vintage voiced?


vintage as in old


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

in that case, I totally lied in the poll.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i have a modern amp, because that was what i can afford. but if money wasn't such an issue i doubt i would seek vintage soley for the cool factor. if i stumbled across something i liked, it wouldn't matter to me how old it is.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

It was modern when I bought it, but it's vintage now...


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Basically where I am coming from is if you have found the tone you were looking for, what was it that made that happen. If it was a vintage amp that you wound up with then that's where I was coming from. I have owned several vintage amps but the one I ended up keeping was the SR because it just fit in with what I was looking for. No modern amp I have owned can match its tone. Now for other types of music, like metal etc, that amp does not do it for me so I have ended up with modern amps for those applications. But for blues and moderate OD the SR can't be matched (so far)


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Two modern amps based on two vintage amps.

Mayfly BC30 - Vox AC30
Robinson 5 - Fender Champ


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## Built4Speed (Aug 31, 2009)

I guess you could call mine modern-vintage as well (and I voted both accordingly) - Fender Brown Deluxe clone


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## ThePass (Aug 10, 2007)

I have a modern amp. But, to it's defense it is somewhat 'aged'. I think it's a '97


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

The amps I use are made in Canada, pre 1975 so I guess you could say vintage Canadian.


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## bobb (Jan 4, 2007)

2 93's and an 84 so I guess that means modern.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Basically where I am coming from is if you have found the tone you were looking for, what was it that made that happen.


i find the tone i'm looking for almost every time i plug in, no matter the amp. all i'm looking for is the combination of knob positions that produces the least amount of suck. i'm not a tone chaser like some folks are. i'm busy enough just trying to build a little skill


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Modern all the way!


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Lately I've been using two Fenders in stereo. A 65' Deluxe Reverb Reissue (technically "modern" I suppose) and a 78' Princeton Reverb - which I'd definietly call vintage.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

bw66 said:


> It was modern when I bought it, but it's vintage now...


To get to the intent of this poll, I should add that I really don't prefer vintage over modern, its just that vintage is what I have.

When I was young I went through prolonged periods where I was unsatisfied with my amp because I couldn't get it to sound like so-and-so. Now I love it because it sounds like me...


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I got to play a show unmic'd last night. Put the Roadster to about 4 and change, adjusted the Solo to compensate - I was told we sounded pretty good! Having a wireless bandmate to walk around the venue while we play our soundcheck song really helps!


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## Baconator (Feb 25, 2006)

I've got three amps and all are modern:

Orange Tiny Terror
Dr. Z Carmen Ghia 
Mesa Boogie Mark IIC+

I'm not averse to vintage and I see the Dr. Z as a vintage-y amp anyhow. Good tone is ageless!


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Both for me. My main amps are a 1968 Princeton Reverb and an Orange Tiny Terror head. How is that for an odd combo? I use them both equally. 

I have a 1966 Ampeg Reverberrocket II that I think is the best sounding amp I have ever heard as well. Just a little powerful for some stuff I do. And I also absolutely love my Roland Microcube, and it's pretty much all I play at home.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I have a couple of Garnet Stencils--one of which I got used, and at least one of them is old enough to be vintage--I guess.
But I don't use them a lot anymore. In fact the bass amp isn't even at home--I lent it to somebody who still has it--I need to go pick it up some day.
Maybe I should sell them, but who knows.

However the poll was for main amp.
For years that was a Roland JC-60.
But since I tend to play in different areas around home, based on thee space & layout of my current home, I tend to mostly use a practice amp--so I voted for modern.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Well... I bought a used amp..... which is now vintage....


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

I wish I had the money to buy older Fender amps but just cant afford it anymore so I am playing some Peavey (1987),Yamaha( 1978) and Fender (1990) amps. Not sure I would call these vintage.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

Isn't vintage anything pre 80?


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

My main stage amp is a '75 SF Princeton Reverb with a 12" extension cabinet. It never goes above 4 and, mic'ed into the board, is all I need. (I keep a '67 Vibrolux Reverb around as a back-up, lol). I guess I'm a vintage guy.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

hummingway said:


> Isn't vintage anything pre 80?


That's generally the dividing line that I use - I get the impression that most people draw the line somewhere around there.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

bw66 said:


> hummingway said:
> 
> 
> > Isn't vintage anything pre 80?
> ...


I guess "vintage" does just describe a time period. I've always thought of it as referring to age AND quality.


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## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

Ok, so I thought this poll needed some pics. Shameless self indulgence of course. I voted modern because the big boy in the middle is what goes with me to most gigs. However, I took the '66 Deluxe Reverb to a small charity gig a month ago and was overwhelmed at the sound. Go figure.

Swervin


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

hardasmum said:


> I guess "vintage" does just describe a time period. I've always thought of it as referring to age AND quality.


True. I just assumed that if its that old and still being used, then good quality is implied.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

My main gigging amp up until a couple days back was a JTM45 RI, which is a modern amp, or is it vintage? The amp itself is only 10 years old, but the circuit is pure 60s (once I had it modded to match the original circuit and dropped some KT66s into it). 

I just got a Traynor YCS50 that I'm head over heels with, and that's definitely a modern amp, but I have it dialed in to mimic my JTM45.

I also ran a '71 Traynor YBA2, a '67 YGM2 and a '72 YGL3 for a while. Love the tone out of those old Traynors!

I'm open to both, but the JTM45 is my favourite, and I always try to get my amps or pedals to sound like _that_​ amp.


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

Swervin55 said:


> Ok, so I thought this poll needed some pics. Shameless self indulgence of course. I voted modern because the big boy in the middle is what goes with me to most gigs. However, I took the '66 Deluxe Reverb to a small charity gig a month ago and was overwhelmed at the sound. Go figure.
> 
> Swervin


Considering so many modern amps are trying to repro a blackface deluxe, no wonder


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## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

I like vintage Marshalls and dont like much post 1983... I own two vintage amps... and two modern amps... my chee is balanced


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Swervin55 said:


> Ok, so I thought this poll needed some pics. Shameless self indulgence of course. I voted modern because the big boy in the middle is what goes with me to most gigs. However, I took the '66 Deluxe Reverb to a small charity gig a month ago and was overwhelmed at the sound. Go figure.
> 
> Swervin


Forget the other ones--I'm interested in the Pignose...


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

washburned said:


> Considering so many modern amps are trying to repro a blackface deluxe, no wonder


Amen brother...... I do not take my blackfaced 72 deluxe for granted...... I say wow every time I turn it on


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

shoretyus said:


> Amen brother...... I do not take my blackfaced 72 deluxe for granted...... I say wow every time I turn it on


Isn't that a silverface?

Don't worry--I've encountered many silverfaces I like
Even by 72, they were still very good.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

They did do some black panels between 1980-82 but they were the same circuits as the silverface.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

zontar said:


> Isn't that a silverface?
> 
> Don't worry--I've encountered many silverfaces I like
> Even by 72, they were still very good.


It has been " blackfaced" ...


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## Petey D (Sep 8, 2011)

Due to financial and spacial limitations, I play a small modern combo, a Johnson JT50. In modeling tech circles though it's a dinosaur, one of the first I'm told. Given the choice though I'd go vintage. Silverface Bassman 50 watt head/1960a cab loaded with greenbacks, and an OCD for the dirt. I'd also love to own a Super Reverb combo. Funny, because I'm not a fan of Fender Guitars at all, but the amps really seem to melt my butter.


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## Chubba (Aug 23, 2009)

I voted both, but too quickly - both i have are modern - Marshall JTM 60 that's about 15 yrs old, but has a nice warm vintage-y tone (and looks pretty vintage, probably fooled myself a bit...lol) - the other is a fender jazzmaster ultralite - acquired 2-3 yrs ago, mostly because it weighs less than 20 lbs (amp and speaker) and fairly versatile, and has a really nice clean sound, but volume is very sensitive and can be a pain to manage...recently switched back to my Marshall, generally works better with my current setup...


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## sadowsky13 (Feb 26, 2007)

neither  does an axe fx ultra count for modern amp


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

Does Virtual count?

Amplitude 3 with Stealth Pedal


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

What some people seem to forget is that old does not equal better. There have been a lot of crappy guitars and amps made from the fifties to present day. A lot of guitarists in the 70's loathed the low quality quality control standards and out of touch designs of what are now considered desired "vintage" instruments (particularly Fender to name one manufacturer). The bottom line is that your equipment should give you pleasure to play no matter what that equipment is. I personally think that whatever gets you there is what you should use - with or without the vintage cool factor.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

shoretyus said:


> It has been " blackfaced" ...


I've heard of that...

Amplifier talk is one area where Blackface is a good thing...


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

These days I'm using modern amps but I suppose they're based on old ideas. I have a Dr Z Maz 38 Sr 2 X 10 and a Blackheart Killer Ant driving a 1 X 12 closed back cab with a Celestion vintage 30.

If I ever find an old Fender combo that grabs my attention I'll certainly grab it.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...my primary reason for using a modern amp is the effects loop.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

These days I play through a modeler and although I don't use many fx with a real amp I do with this set up.I prefer modern amps more than classic but a classic with a TS is pretty damn nice.So I guess I go both ways!


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## Steve Adams (Dec 31, 2009)

I have a modern amp that looks and sounds classic. It's the best of all worlds.


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## JimiGuy7 (Jan 10, 2008)

New amp vintage voiced. Ceriatone 36RP


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Nice collection of amps there Swervin! My first amp was a Pignose. 8)
They have a Tweed special edition out right now for the PN.

My main amp is a Maz jr nr.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

1960 Champ (tweed)
1962 Princeton (brown)
1966 Vibrolux Reverb (blackface)
18W Marshall HW still counts as vintage since it's an accurate repro

Still on the fence about the PRS 25th Anniv "50 W Plexi" & the Cornford's up for sale so that would make me a vintage guy.


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## HarpBoy (Jun 10, 2009)

My main amp is a 1956 Magnatone. I guess that's probably vintage. My other one is the Traynor YGM reissue, which is a duplicate of a '69.


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## Emohawk (Feb 3, 2006)

My main amp right now is a Bad Cat Hot Cat 30 NR clone, so I guess you could say it's a modern amp with strong vintage roots.


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## Bruiser74 (Jan 29, 2010)

Combination here, but my moderns are vintage sounding.
PRS Rev B 50w = Vintage Plexi 
Carvin X100b iv reissue = Fender Twin-like clean and JCM800 meets Mesa Mark Series dirty channel
Xits X10 = Old school VOX
1959 Gibson GT-18 = Vintage all the way!


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## georgemg (Jul 17, 2011)

Moderns amps - two reissue Fenders. I'd love to get an original, but I'd probably be afraid to take it out on a gig in case it got wrecked.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Through sheer dumb luck, I acquired an original tweed Princeton some 35 years ago, and an original tweed Bassman 20 years ago. Since then, I have added some much smaller solid-state amps, simply for reasons of space and volume levels. I'd like to build a clone of an early blackface dual-6V6 of some form with a chassis I picked up cheap, but apart from that, I have little reason to want to change amps.

So vintage for real playing, modern for bench-testing stuff.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

mhammer said:


> Through sheer dumb luck, I acquired an original tweed Princeton some 35 years ago, and an original tweed Bassman 20 years ago. Since then, I have added some much smaller solid-state amps, simply for reasons of space and volume levels. I'd like to build a clone of an early blackface dual-6V6 of some form with a chassis I picked up cheap, but apart from that, I have little reason to want to change amps.
> 
> So vintage for real playing, modern for bench-testing stuff.


I love the tweeds. A tweed Bassman! What year? Now there's an amp to hold on to.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Latiator said:


> A Mesa/Boogie Express 5:50 has been my main squeeze for close to 5 years. It's an incredibly versatile and reliable amplifier, nothing but love and respect for it! :wave:


I'm glad to hear you say that. I almost traded mine in for a Lonestar Special today except L&M would only offer me $600 tradein for an 8 month old amp. They saved me from an expensive rash decision and I can keep the 5:50 which I really do actually like. LOL- now they get my $950 for a new TA-15 next week (which is what I traded in on the 5:50 for a big loss!). I should have posted this in the L&M Trade In Value thread!!!

Anyway I do like my modern Mesa amp.


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## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

Ha, guess it's vintage _and_ modern: Marshall Vintage Modern 2466 and 1960BX cab.


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

at some point I realized I had more than 50 amps. All but three were made pre 1979. 
Then I added a Dark Horse & a reissue YGM3 as well as few of the new chinese single ended 
amps... though they have been tweeked to sound like the 50's champ that got away! 

p


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## MarkusV (Sep 24, 2009)

I voted both:
Vintage Traynor YBA-4 ( I have a bit of a thing for Traynors)
Trainwreck Liverpool clone (my own take on it (more modern)
Trainwreck Rocket clone (my own 15 watt take on it - which is a more modern interpretation of a very vintage AC 15/30 design)

Markus V


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I had to vote modern, a G-DEC 3 - 15. But it has a lot of vintage tones in it. I use it with headphones when I do use it, been wondering about a new cabinet and a 10 or 12 inch speaker.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Modern.A vintage amp makes as much sense to me as a vintage computer.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

Diablo said:


> Modern.A vintage amp makes as much sense to me as a vintage computer.


Hm. I can make music by clappingmy hands but I suppose I really should stop since synthesizers have made it obselete. Then again I do like the tone I get from my hands - still I'd hate to be out of date.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

hummingway said:


> Hm. I can make music by clappingmy hands but I suppose I really should stop since synthesizers have made it obselete. Then again I do like the tone I get from my hands - still I'd hate to be out of date.


There's a pedal for that...


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Diablo said:


> Modern.A vintage amp makes as much sense to me as a vintage computer.


I don't understand. So you're into modeling amps? Line 6 stuff? I'm confused.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

http://i1000.photobucket.com/albums/af129/Electraglide49/Photo_090912_001.jpg
Nothing wrong with vintage/old amps or computers. The YGM2 sounds great and both the Toshiba 4020 CDT and the IBM Thinkpad 390 do what I want them to do and go on line. And for you Tech guys, the Toshiba has 32 mb of ram, a whopping 6 gig hdd and is running Windows ME. I up graded the IBM to 128 mb ram with a 20 gig hdd and windows XP 'cause I didn't need 2 laptops running 98 or 2000, tho it would be nice to have something running 95.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Diablo said:


> Modern.A vintage amp makes as much sense to me as a vintage computer.


The circuit boards of 2 of the modern amps I once owned (a Mesa LSS 112 combo & Fender CVR) crapped out on me within a couple of years, whereas the tweed Champ I recently picked up needed one of the caps changed. First time that anything had ever (i.e. in 52 years) been repaired on that wee screamer. I'll take hand-wired, point-to-point all day long.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Sneaky said:


> hummingway said:
> 
> 
> > Hm. I can make music by clappingmy hands but I suppose I really should stop since synthesizers have made it obselete. Then again I do like the tone I get from my hands - still I'd hate to be out of date.
> ...


Sweet! I've noticed that there's a niche in the marketplace for a Grand Funk Railroad cover band, that pedal could really come in handy (pun accidental yet acknowledged as horrible).


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Other than power attenuation and maybe effects loops, I don't know that modern technology has really improved guitar amps much over the years.

I think the best amps being made now are still point to point hand wired.

You don't need a computer to get a good guitar tone.


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## BEMUSofNrthAmra (Jun 9, 2012)

hardasmum said:


> > Originally Posted by *Diablo*
> > Modern.A vintage amp makes as much sense to me as a vintage computer.
> 
> 
> I don't understand. So you're into modeling amps? Line 6 stuff? I'm confused.


Lol, he doesn't use an amp. He runs his guitar into a USB audio interface 1/4 jack and gets sound through his computer speakers. Gotta love the tone that Pentium Quad Core gives ya.

Eek... he's gotta be trying to Troll the vintage amp users, because his comparing of vintage amps with vintage computers makes NO sense at all.


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## BEMUSofNrthAmra (Jun 9, 2012)

I would play a modern all-tube amp. Most, if not all of them are based on vintage designs anyways.

If I wanted a true modern amp, I would get a tube pre-amp with a brand new high wattage solid state power amp.


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## robare99 (Jan 9, 2012)

1984 100w jmc800
1981 50w jmp


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## Steve Adams (Dec 31, 2009)

I use mintage. A fender mustang III. Has all the vintage tone and feel with solid state lightness and reliability. I'm getting great dumble tones from it using a digitech bad monkey in front.

Sent from my ARCHOS 80G9 using Tapatalk 2


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## Fuzzy Picklez (Apr 20, 2011)

I'm a younger guy using vintage stuff.
I find I can really stretch my buck with a lot of this stuff.
I have a hard time paying for new gear that's only made to last for a few years, when I could buy older gear that's made to last forever. I find so many modern amps look and feel so fragile.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Main amps are a DRRI and a Classic 30. So modern with one that is vintage sounding for me.


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

My current line-up


1. Carr Sportsman( based on a Princeton Blackface and early 60's tweed circuits). I can't say enough about this one.
2. A newly aquired 50's Deluxe Tweed Klone. I just picked this one up and liking it so far.
3. New construction, 5 watt, 5f1 Tweed chassis in a Laquered Pine Box combo, loaded with a 4 ohm Webber 12" (Wow, this is a Beast!)
4. ValveTrain Lexington Reverb (6 watt, 1.5 watt). a great little grab and go amp for rehearsals.

All amps are Hand Wired, Point to Point, based on Vintage circuits. I think it's the best of both worlds with Vintage tone, but with modern reliability.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

As of today 

1. Clark Beaufort Reverb - Best sounding DR I've ever played through plus new construction - pricey but worth it imho.
2. Fryette Memphis 30 - great 2 channel combo with fx loop, both channels are awesome
3. Egnater Renegade 60 Head - Inexpensive, chinese construction, no issues, sounds great
4. THD Bivalve 30 (just picked up from Urko) - Love it. Ability to run just about any kind of tube or combination of tubes is awesome. Lots of fun.
5. '67 Traynor YSR-1 - modded, sounds great when it's working but I can't really trust it anymore.
6. Blues Junior - modded but not by me. Has a couple of things not quite working right (treble control above 7 and fat switch) but really does sound good.


Bottom line is I love vintage stuff, and have owned quite a bit of it over the years, but you can buy amps today that sound just as good and probably won't go south on you when you really need it not to.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

+1 on the Clark, especially w/ Fender charging bigger bucks for PCB. I had a tweed Beaufort that was fantastic, kinda regret trading that one. What speaker is in your BF Dave?


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## RobQ (May 29, 2008)

Modern. Bogner shiva and ZT Lunchbox. Key factors are reliability and refinement


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Weber Classic Alnico.

Don't know about Fender charging bigger bucks, Last one of these listed on TGP was $2350 used 




Roryfan said:


> +1 on the Clark, especially w/ Fender charging bigger bucks for PCB. I had a tweed Beaufort that was fantastic, kinda regret trading that one. What speaker is in your BF Dave?


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

davetcan said:


> Weber Classic Alnico.
> 
> Don't know about Fender charging bigger bucks, Last one of these listed on TGP was $2350 used
> 
> ...


I was thinking of the well over $3K price tag on a Vibro King. My tweed Beaufort had a Celestion Alnico Blue (incredible speaker in a 5E3, much better than the vintage P12Q I tried), think I snagged that one for $1500.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

$1500 is a heck of a deal.

I've looked all over the speaker for some form of ID but there is nothing other than Classic Alnico on the back cover and an "8" on the gasket telling me it's 8 ohms I assume 

I'm going to drop my Scumback M in there to see how it sounds.



Roryfan said:


> I was thinking of the well over $3K price tag on a Vibro King. My tweed Beaufort had a Celestion Alnico Blue (incredible speaker in a 5E3, much better than the vintage P12Q I tried), think I snagged that one for $1500.


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## ColForbin (Sep 10, 2012)

I find that silverface amps are a steal of a deal and sound top notch, my current lineup:

1972 Twin Reverb
1973 Deluxe Reverb

My main gigging amp is the Twin, but for smaller more intimate shows, I have no problem using the Deluxe. They both sound magical.


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## SaviArt (Mar 1, 2012)

My amp is modern like one. Unfortunately, I can't consider about which amp is better to me, maybe because I haven't listened and compared. But at this time my amp is modern one


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