# Tapping on yer wood?



## plumber666 (Nov 25, 2007)

I'm in the middle of my 2nd build, and it's a weird semihollow thing. I've seen videos and heard lots about how luthiers will tap their guitar tops and backs and listen for just the right sound. Without becoming too esoteric, can anybody explain to me exactly what it is we're supposed to be listening for?


----------



## plumber666 (Nov 25, 2007)

No bites yet eh?


----------



## plumber666 (Nov 25, 2007)

I'll give you all a while, but I've got a really weird theory on this stuff. Not realy esoteric, but esotericish.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Spill the beans...I'm lurking.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## WarrenG (Feb 3, 2006)

They're supposedly listening for the fundamental bonk tone to disappear by thinning the wood to the point that there's nothing but resonance. Somogyi is really big on this, as are his students. However, I find their guitars sound like crap because they are bass heavy with very little mid. I won't even discuss those guys that sift around the wood pile clanking every piece with a small hammer searching for the grail...


----------



## Gazoo (May 3, 2010)

There is a fellow in Saskatoon that had a friend of mine come out and test some wood he was using to make a guitar. By tapping he felt pretty sure there was a dead spot in the wood and after using some of the high tech equipment my friend was able to prove the wood indeed had a dead spot. They then would steam and rest and steam and rest the area until resonance reached acceptable levels. Didn't witness it but based upon a very reliable source. Seemed pretty cool.


----------



## plumber666 (Nov 25, 2007)

This guitar making stuff is still very much in the experimental stage for me. Woodworking has never been a hobby or a job for me and I guess THIS is my mid-life crisis. I'm learning something every time I pick up a chisel.

The top and back of this project are cut pretty close to the final shape and are 3 pieces of 3/8" alder. I'm leaving a 1/4" band around the outside edge of the pieces full thickness and chiselling out the inside. On the back half I'm down to about 1/2 thickness and decided to do the knock thing and compare it to the top, which I've done nothing with.

The difference is quite noticable. I'd compare it to hitting a tuning fork vs smacking a metal chair. Sort of. But I'm getting the resonance part. The back half has a clearly defined ring to it. And sustain to the sound. The front goes thud. I'm by no means done my carving project but I'm starting to get it.

Now after I get the top and back to stop being peices of wood and start being guitar parts, how does this all translate into what the guitar might sound like? My esotericky theory is: a red colored piece of paper is just all the waves of the visible light reflecting back to your eye, less the red wavelengths. Now swap the piece of paper for a guitar body and the eyeball for your ears.......

And that's as far as I've gotten with my theory. Thanks for the input. I don't know any luthiers and really value this sight for all the tidbits of knowlege I've picked up from all of you. I built my first guitar a year ago solely because a friend bought a house and found a neck in a bedroom closet and gave it to me because I was the only guitar player he knew. I wish I'd started this 20 years ago.


----------



## Mike Potvin (Apr 30, 2009)

Tap tuning is something that some builders swear by and others dismiss as bunk. What I can tell you is that when I'm hunting through a pile of wood, I do occasionally hold the plank up and tap it. In my highly untrained in the art of tap tuning mind, I'm looking for something that has a pleasing ring to it. Whether or not a piece of wood rings depends on a lot of things, including where/how you hold it. When it comes to carving plates on an archtop, what the piece sounds like when you tap it is an indication of whether or not you've removed enough wood in the right places to allow the plate to do its thing on the finished guitar. Volumes have been written on this topic sparking more than a few battles!


----------



## Gazoo (May 3, 2010)

Sounds like it is as with so many things subjective. One man's guitar top is another man's brace. I guess the only way to develop this skill is to build guitars and through trial and error figure out the qualities then end up resulting in a great guitar. However just to throw a wrench in the gears I thought I'd mention that some builders believe that the wood isn't as important as other would have you believe but that it is the Luthier's ability that determines the quality of the finished product. I believe a master can make an extrodinary guitar out of a rather ordinary piece of wood. Bob Taylor's Pallet guitar is a good example of this.

For those of you unfamiliar with the story, the Pallet guitar by Bob Taylor was originally conceived to prove to the world that a great guitar builder can build an outstanding instrument regardless of the wood used. To prove this, Bob Taylor went to the back of the Taylor factory and proceeded to tear apart a few of the shipping pallets on the ground, and built himself a guitar using the weathered oak, and pine fir or hemlock (who knows its a 2x4 from a pallet!) or whatever these things are made of. This original pallet guitar was tested by many industry experts including C. F. Martin, and all agreed that Bob Taylor made his point. The Pallet guitar was awesome. Bob Taylor decided that it would be fun to make a limited run of these Pallet guitars for shows, and most were snagged by collectors. If you can find one for sale they usually run around $4000 to $8000 dollars. Not bad for some wood from a pallet.


----------



## Lab123 (May 27, 2007)

plumber666 said:


> I'll give you all a while, but I've got a really weird theory on this stuff. Not realy esoteric, but esotericish.


Welcome to the world of guitar making...all builders have seem to have a theory. Thats why when you ask a question to a bunch of luthiers you get a bunch of different answers...Some luthiers are into stuff that will boggle your mind with scientific equations that only a rocket scientist can understand. Some so simple that it only involves a slightly different bracing pattern...Everyone likes to believe that they are making a guitar thats has that " little different something " from other guitars... Do I believe tapping wood gives me the information that I need to make a good guitar?.....Yes I do...If you check out the harvesting of trees for guitar woods you will find that there are some people who do tests on the tree before they cut it to determine if it is of top guality tonewood....When I select a guitar top I look for a number of things...Properly quarter sawn wood, number of rings per inch, stiffness, runout, defects, and I tap the top to see how it resonates...Also you have to find the proper places on the top to hold it to get the top to resonate...When the top is braced the top is dampened and the top does not resonate, so you carve the braces to get the top to resonate again...you have to tap , carve ,tap carve until you get the sound you want....This is how I do it and am pleased with the reaction I get from the people who play and buy my instruments....By the way are you a plumber? .....Larry


----------



## Alain Moisan (Jan 16, 2010)

WarrenG said:


> I won't even discuss those guys that sift around the wood pile clanking every piece with a small hammer searching for the grail...


We're on the same boat Warren!

In a nut shell, I beleive tapping on wood and 'tuning' your top and back to get that note you are looking for or to get the back to resonate with the top would make a lot of sens if we would play guitar by tapping on them, like we do with bongos or drums. Unfortunately, we play guitar by struming strings that are attached to a bridge, itself glued on the top. A much different way to make a guitar vibrate.

That said, I believe the bridge should absorbe as few vibrations as possible and tapping on the wood I intend to use for bridges will tell me if it 'rings' a lot or not (also called the 'Q' factor). Droping it on a concrete floor is even better for that. Hunduran rosewood is the best I have found so far, closely followed by snake wood.

My 2 cents...


----------



## Lab123 (May 27, 2007)

I knew this would happen when I posted on this thread....But I'm glad i did...I have looked at the work done by Alain and Warren and there is no doubt in my mind they that they do indeed make very nice instruments...and we do look at guitar building a little differently...I would love to be in the area that these guys live in and be able to exchange ideas and listen to their work...I have to ask ...How do you get a consistant good sounding guitars...Do you follow the same plan for each guitar no matter what wood you are using ( which is the way factory guitars are made..hit or miss)..Would you brace a stiff top with the same size brace that you would a lesser stiff top? A guitars sound is not just made from the top but combination of a lot of things...Back and side wood, bridge, bridge plate ,etc....
I know that Taylor made some guitars out of Pallets , but I wonder what kind of wood was it and what did they do to the wood before they made it into guitars...and If it was such a success why didn't they keep and making this guitar?.....Great thread.....Larry


----------



## plumber666 (Nov 25, 2007)

Yes, I'm a plumber. And like I tell every apprentice I meet, you can ask 10 journeymen the same question and you'll get 10 different answers. And they'll all be right to varying degrees. Obviously the same is true with luthiers. Interesting feedback, guys. All responses will be treated with equal respect and as I make my way through this project I'll be back for more of your insights. For now I'll just keep tapping till I get what I think works.


----------



## Lab123 (May 27, 2007)

Keep on tapping and listen to what the wood tells you....LOL.....By the way I am a retired Steamfitter/Pipefitter/Plumber....I never want to work on a crap line again.....LOL....Take care...Larry


----------



## YJMUJRSRV (Jul 17, 2007)

gone fishing


----------



## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

well....knocking wood is important.. But if you can't do it yourself...there's always help..


----------



## Lab123 (May 27, 2007)

LOL......Ok...before this thread gets out of hand....I Think That I have not made myself clear here....I tap only the Spruce guitar tops to get the sound I want.(Tap tuning). I do not tap any other wood, back,sides, necks or bridges...Your guitar top is the main component that gives sound to the guitar..The other body woods does have some little effect on the sound but not that much to make me go around tapping everything looking for that magic wood...


----------



## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Lab123 said:


> LOL......Ok...before this thread gets out of hand....I Think That I have not made myself clear here....I tap only the Spruce guitar tops to get the sound I want.(Tap tuning). I do not tap any other wood, back,sides, necks or bridges...Your guitar top is the main component that gives sound to the guitar..The other body woods does have some little effect on the sound but not that much to make me go around tapping everything looking for that magic wood...


LOL...yes..i usually check the top myself to make sure i got wood.......usually the rest is fine..






Just kidding man..


----------



## YJMUJRSRV (Jul 17, 2007)

gone fishing


----------



## Lab123 (May 27, 2007)

YJMUJRSRV said:


> Thats a whole other can of worms. I would totally disagree that is all top. Back and sides changes things tremendously and in my opinion the neck is at least 50%. Of course everyone's going to have an opinion here and I doubt everyone will ever agree on this one.


Read the post again.........( when I post about guitars,Its acoustic guitars, I have never built an electric....hope this is not causing some confusion


----------



## Alain Moisan (Jan 16, 2010)

Lab123 said:


> I knew this would happen when I posted on this thread....But I'm glad i did...I have looked at the work done by Alain and Warren and there is no doubt in my mind they that they do indeed make very nice instruments...and we do look at guitar building a little differently...I would love to be in the area that these guys live in and be able to exchange ideas and listen to their work...I have to ask ...How do you get a consistant good sounding guitars...Do you follow the same plan for each guitar no matter what wood you are using ( which is the way factory guitars are made..hit or miss)..Would you brace a stiff top with the same size brace that you would a lesser stiff top? A guitars sound is not just made from the top but combination of a lot of things...Back and side wood, bridge, bridge plate ,etc....
> I know that Taylor made some guitars out of Pallets , but I wonder what kind of wood was it and what did they do to the wood before they made it into guitars...and If it was such a success why didn't they keep and making this guitar?.....Great thread.....Larry


Larry, I want to make myself clear here. Although I do no believe in tap tuning, I do not think any less of who ever believes in it. As much as it can't be proven that tap tuning helps a guitar, it can't be proven that it doesn't.

That said, regarding how I make my guitars sound the same (as much as possible), it's a combination of things. I 'feel' the overall stiffeness and weight where it's important (top and back, mostly) and for the rest, I follow specs. Some are more important than others: bracing pattern, body dept, bridge material, distance between top and strings at the bridge, for example. I must be doing something right because my guitars sound quite the same from one to the other.

Oh, and thanks for the nice comments about my guitars. I'd be happy to talk lutherie with you if you ever pass by Montreal!


----------



## gearbox (May 10, 2010)

> Everyone likes to believe that they are making a guitar thats has that " little different something " from other guitars... Do I believe tapping wood gives me the information that I need to make a good guitar?.....Yes I do...


I have to agree with you on this. Although I am not a "seasoned" builder, I found that "tapping the wood" is very important. After i finished my first successful acoustic build and moved on to another, i decided to make parts for 2 guitars at the same time since i would have jigs and tools out already. When it came to cutting the backs and sides out i went with maple for one and birch for the other. 
Once the braces were glued on i gave it the tap test and WOW!! Even though both guitars were the same size, same bracing, both good quarter sawn wood.....the maple had a nice ring to it while the birch just gave me a dull thud. Me being an idiot decided to keep going with the birch and long story short......... The one made with maple is sitting in my den and sounds great and the birch guitar found its way to my funace. I couldnt belive the difference in the sound quality. So since then i been using the tap test on all my woods and i find that even with quallity tone woods, i can see a dif in tap tone. I would guess tis is from grain density, difference in grain angle an so on but i dunno for sure.
However tho.....I was talking to a 78 year old man who has been building guitars, fiddles, banjos for years and when i told him about that his words were......."If someone boxed up some birch and sent it to me to make a guitar, I would throw out the birch and use the box instead" HAHAHA.


----------



## YJMUJRSRV (Jul 17, 2007)

gone fishing


----------



## Lab123 (May 27, 2007)

Alain Moisan said:


> I'd be happy to talk lutherie with you if you ever pass by Montreal!


Thanks...I'd love to some day, ....Maybe sometime I wll attend a Montreal Guitar show and drop by

Gearbox....."If someone boxed up some birch and sent it to me to make a guitar, I would throw out the birch and use the box instead" HAHAHA. 
LOL....The old man is probaly right....


----------



## Alain Moisan (Jan 16, 2010)

Lab123 said:


> Thanks...I'd love to some day, ....Maybe sometime I wll attend a Montreal Guitar show and drop by


Good luck! I've been waiting for three years and they still haven't a place for me there.


----------

