# Stang Ray alternatives?



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Considering the possibility of moving on from my Dr. Z Stang Ray, it sounds good but its often a bit too loud. I'm still toying around with attentuators but would rather not use an outside unit. 

Does anyone know of similar sounding amps that come in with those wonderful country, doesn't always have to be country, cleans but without the high volume? I guess I'm in Vox territory at the moment and would probably prefer staying with an EF86 in the preamp and EL84's in the power. Morgan AC20 Dlx? Dr. Z M12? Suggestions?


----------



## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

Before I make another suggestion, I'll honor your specific question with an amp suggestion:
The Ceriatone Creme Brulee is basically a half power (2xEl84) and single channel (EF86 channel only) version of the Matchless DC30. I have a Ceriatone DC30 and absolutely love the cleans on my EF86 channel.
http://ceriatone.com/productSubPages/CremeBrulee/CremeBrulee_Complete.htm
http://www.ceriatone.net/ceriatone-signature-amps/muchle/creme-brulee_81

Trinity Amps has their TC15 which again is a half powered DC30, but with both channels:
http://www.trinityamps.com/Product_Trin15.htm
I've built one of the TC15 kits for a friend and it does very good as well.

But here's what I would do. I would install the basic VVR for cathode biased amps into your Stangray:
http://www.hallamplification.com/main.html?src=/#2,2
If it is only volume reduction you after and not specifically weight reduction, VVR does it extremely well in my opinion on this style of amp. I do sort of feel like there is something lost when you reduce the number of tubes from 4 to 2. More glass seems to even things out a bit more and give a bit more complex and 3D character... I'll stop there at the risk of sounding crazy. The differences are subtle, but I always seem to prefer the 4xEL84s over the 2xE84s. But, even if I did get a 2xEL84 amp, VVR is still a no-brainer addition I would always make.


----------



## CSBen (Mar 1, 2011)

IMO I would go with the Morgan Dual 40.

Why?

Allows you to select either an EF86 or 12AX7, so best of both worlds pre-amp wise and it comes with power scaling as a standard option on the amp, two of the criteria you mentioned. 

TGP is where you'll want to look for one in the used market though. 

Good luck with your search.


----------



## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

FWIW I have a Matchless C30 head and it sounds NOTHING like a Stang Ray. Even though the tubes are very similar, its a different beast. A Maz 18 or M12 would be a LOT closer to that sound at lower vols. The EF 86 channel on the Matchless/clones is very dirty and fat sounding, where the Stang is a lot clearer with way more headroom. With the master off, my c 30 gets dirty on the EF86 channel at about 9 o'clock. My Maz has more headroom, honestly. The 12AX channel on the C30 has a bit more headroom, and is a more typical AC 30 sound, but still not a like the Stang.

I also really like the look of the new Bad Cat Cub 15, switchable EF86/ax7 with 15 watts AND a master, but the Bad Cats I have played have also been very dirty on the EF86 side, like a Matchless.


----------



## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

Honk, honk!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBK7cJA5A1w


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Some great suggestions here, thank you.

I'm going to look in to the VVR, I'm not familiar with it but it's been recommended before and I just want to check/research that it won't harm the amp. I like the idea of limiting power rather than soaking it up after the fact with an attenuator.

Before jumping to the Morgan 40, doesn't the AC20 Deluxe have some kind of power cut and the 12AX7/EF86 option as well? I've always had Morgans on my radar so I would not be opposed to owning and playing one. On an unrelated note, I take it the AC20 is 20 watts and the AC40 is 40 watts, why do they ship it with a single Blue which to my understanding is a 15 watt speaker?

I briefly tried a Maz 18 and it didn't strike me as the amp to have at the time, maybe I should try it again but I'm also really intrigued by the M12. I know the tube compliment is similar but the tone stack is more like the Route 66, still folks say it stays clean longer and comes in the right size. Where the heck do I find one locally to try though?

Bill, you and your amps actually came up in conversation last night. I was at the Yardbird Suite and a friend says I have to come back and see Ryan Davidson play, tells me I'd like his sound and gear. I remembered meeting Ryan when he was demoing some of your builds including this amp at the last show, funny that my friends have me pegged for loving the Tele/Foxy Lady sound. Anyways, the folks that have heard Ryan agreed he sounds good so I mentioned you build some of Ryan's gear, pat on the back for WCGill.


----------



## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

Yes Ryan has a Foxy Lady, sans channel-switching and the EF86, which I'm a big fan of. Forum member Axestronomer also has one, with the EF86. I haven't heard from either of these guys in awhile, which in my books is good news. Just doing an 18w with the same preamp, a little quieter for a local guy who's doing cafe gigs. With a decent master volume, I think you'll find the VVR isn't necessary. I haven't done one in years.


----------



## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

vadsy said:


> Does anyone know of similar sounding amps that come in with those wonderful country cleans but without the high volume?


Vadim: I may be missing something here in the interpretation of what you're looking for so bear with me. By lower volume I suspect you mean the same cleans but with less power? Problem as I see it is, less power translates into less headroom which will ultimately limits your cleans. Kind of a catch 22. What I'm thinking is that because you seldom have the opportunity to open up your Stangray, you're considering something with less power that will give you reasonably the same cleans at a lower volume. You might want to try my 65 Soho, master volume/voltage, 18-22W, (2) EL84's, EF86 with pretty good headroom for it's power, sparkling clean to a point and then it has a bump circuit to give you that little extra when you're outta headroom. Just thinkin'....

By the way, there's something magical about a EL84/EF86 circuit and P90's.


----------



## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

vadsy said:


> Some great suggestions here, thank you.
> 
> I'm going to look in to the VVR, I'm not familiar with it but it's been recommended before and I just want to check/research that it won't harm the amp. I like the idea of limiting power rather than soaking it up after the fact with an attenuator.


Regarding harming the amp, it is not something that could happen. As far as I know, the worst case is that the mosfet in the VVR circuit can't get rid of heat enough and it gets damaged; I think this happened on my JCM800 2204 (but VVR is not recommended on amps above 50 watts without additional mostfets. Properly attached to the chassis with a heat sink, there shouldn't be any problem. But, again, it would only damage one of the 5 components in the VVR and they are all cheaply replaced. 
In truth, it is healthier for your amp and tubes especially. It is used to regulate your B+ voltage. When you run your tubes at lower plate voltages, you drastically increase their lifespan. Turning the VVR all the way up is like it is out of the circuit altogether (not that it is ever in the signal path like an attenuator or master volume).
Also, regarding drilling a hole for the knob; That is not necessary. You could replace both your power and standby switches with a single 3 position centre-off toggle and put the VVR knob in place of the missing toggle. Totally reversible! The only hole you might drill would be to mount the mosfet to the chassis with a tiny screw.


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Swervin55 said:


> Vadim: I may be missing something here in the interpretation of what you're looking for so bear with me. By lower volume I suspect you mean the same cleans but with less power? Problem as I see it is, less power translates into less headroom which will ultimately limits your cleans. Kind of a catch 22. What I'm thinking is that because you seldom have the opportunity to open up your Stangray, you're considering something with less power that will give you reasonably the same cleans at a lower volume. You might want to try my 65 Soho, master volume/voltage, 18-22W, (2) EL84's, EF86 with pretty good headroom for it's power, sparkling clean to a point and then it has a bump circuit to give you that little extra when you're outta headroom. Just thinkin'....
> 
> By the way, there's something magical about a EL84/EF86 circuit and P90's.


I'm going to the studio tonight to pick up my Stang Ray, I can swing by and we can start an amp exchange program, I also have your guitar that needs to make it home because its painful to keep teasing myself by holding on to it.


----------



## the5chord (Oct 7, 2011)

You'll probably want to trade me your stang ray for my hand wired Vox AC15 H1TV. It has an ef86 channel and will obviously save your hearing


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

@ Swervin


With your Tele collection you need to try everyone of them through that amp, rigorously.


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

So.. I found an M12 and took it for a test drive. In reading that it was a tame version of a Stang and a Wreck combined I was exited to hear one. It didn't disappoint, clean for a surprising portion with a nice breakup at the end at very reasonable volume. Flipping back and forth between the Stang and M12 the the volume difference is huge but so is the fullness even through a single 12 cab. The Stang at 10 o'clock with the THD hotplate at -4 dB is pretty much the same as the M12 at 2 o'clock volume wise. I found the Stang has more chime and a broader sound, all of this while attenuated. It also stayed cleaner, that 30 watts might have something to do with it. I think I would rather have an amp stay cleaner and use pedals to push it beyond. The M12 took pedals very well, it seemed effortless and smooth for every piece I have mounted to my board. The Stang is great with certain overdrives but is finicky with others and I know it has trouble getting along with fuzzes, at least the ones I have. I've decided that as much as I want an M12 at this point it would be silly since I still love the Stang even with an attenuator. I might look further in to the power scaling option but am waiting a bit to see if it's worth it. Still.... when a good M12 combo pops up on the used market one day I might quickly change my tune.


----------

