# Ladies what do you think?



## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Hey I'm just looking for validation I guess. But it seems to me that the gear industry as a whole caters exclusivley to men. Not that there aren't more men playing guitar than women, however I'm SO tied of being forgotten, ignored (except for the up and down) or just plain disrespected cause I could not possibly know anything about guitars and their makers. When I bought my Taylor GSRS, I shopped around the GTA and not once did anyone approach me about what I was looking for, with no exceptions every salesperson approached my husband to ask "what do you play man"? He had heard my complaints about such things on numerous occasions, but was completely surprised to see it first hand. I actually had one guy hand me a Gibson Dove saying "Sheryl Crow plays one of these" 

I rarely buy guitar mags cause mostly they are crap, but sometimes it's nice to read about new gadgets and gizmos and for the most part I don't have anyone to talk to about such things. I just bought guitar world and I'm so sick of the half naked models on the inside who could not possible know a thing about playing guitar, at least not with nails like those. I know all you men out there enjoy the occasional eye candy but....

Anyway, sorry I'm a bit long winded, but if there are any of you out there who work in a music store, please don't assume that the women coming in are shopping for their Husbands or their sons...


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

I second everything you just said.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

The average age of a Guitar World reader is 16 so half naked women makes sense as a marketing tool. Unfortunately the other magazines do it as well. Silly concept to sell any guitar product for sure.

That said it makes us men look for a second at least, otherwise we might not pay attention to the add at all.

The last time I checked, I don't think the acoustic guitar magazine allows any of those types of adds. Might be a good alternative for you to check out.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Right you are, and I am an avid reader of GW acoustic. The music stores however? That is another story. Like I said, only occasionally do I like to check out the new gear....


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

What she said.

Back in the mid '70s there was a huge outcry at Guitar Player Magazine about the use of women in advertising to sell guitars to men. Seems worse now. Besides all that, I don't think there are any more female players per capita either. There are some great role models, but not so may followers it seems.

www.kateschutt.com for one role model.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

What about guitars themselves? Is there anything noteworthy in the design of the guitar that makes them more comfortable or appealing to female players?

I once made a strat for my old girlfriend as a Christmas present that had a slightly smaller than usual body, but I'm not sure that it was all that important thinking back though.


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## Robboman (Oct 14, 2006)

*100 to 1? At least?*

Firstly, I know your thread was titled "Ladies, what do you think?", and I am a man last I checked... but I'll chime in anyway.

This is no excuse for lacking professionalism from any salesma.. uhh, sales-person, but I think you may have REALLY understated that part about how there's more guys playing guitar than girls. Having worked in a music store in the past, and having sold many a guitar during that 3 or 4 year period, I honestly can't remember EVER selling one to a female guitar player! Closest I got was selling beginner guitars to moms for their male children. Maybe it was just me and I have no idea if there's industry stats on this to prove me wrong, but from my personal experience it seems that men must outnumber women by 100 to 1 or more when it comes to guitar players. I've never understood why it's such a male-dominated thing.

So if a man and a woman walk in together and the sales-person assumes that the man is the guitarist, 99% of the time it would be the correct assumtion. I'm sure female sales-persons would make the same wrong assumption. 

The lesson - Never 'assume', it makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'!


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

Robboman said:


> I've never understood why it's such a male-dominated thing.


We think playing it will help get the ladies? :rockon2:


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## Michelle (Aug 21, 2006)

Hey Roboman, I saw your edit info, funny!

It's not only guitar stores Starbuck, you must get this anytime you enter the traditional male 'domain'. Auto parts, bldg supplies, etc. Happens to me all the time. They too assume you're picking up something for the man and have absolutely no concept or understanding of what_it_is. Some guys act pretty weird when a female shows her smarts/talents in these areas.

There is a lot of misunderstanding and stereotyping towards what is gender-related, gender-specific, or gender-appropriate throughout our societies. Anyone who deviates from the norm can be labeled 'deviant' or viewed with suspicion, or worse. It works both ways of course with different results/implications, this is dangerous territory for some.

Certainly though, there are not a lot of female guitarists. What's the #1 reason guys take up the guitar? There hasn't been much role-model type influence towards females until recent years. Certainly there is/was parental pressure to abide by perceived gender norms, "this is not something women do". For me, the first time I saw/heard a bass player in a rock band live I dug it and decided that is what I was going to do. Suzi Quattro impressed me later on but I never liked her music much, I just liked her outfits. 

The shape definitely has an impact Andy, for me anyway, I prefer smaller, solid bodies. (oops) 

:wave:


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## Marnacious (Dec 30, 2005)

I say it's time to start a revolution. :sport-smiley-002:


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## jane (Apr 26, 2006)

Honestly, I haven't really had this problem much, except for the one time I went into a guitar store and the salesperson pointed me to the acoustic guitars room without asking me what I was looking for. A lot of my interests are in fields that are very male dominated too... mathematics (22 guys and 2 girls in my class), planes and guitars/basses!


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Robboman said:


> Firstly, I know your thread was titled "Ladies, what do you think?", and I am a man last I checked... but I'll chime in anyway.
> 
> Ooops! Sorry Robboman, I was not trying to exclude you gentleman. Just wondering if there was anyone else out there with the same problem. Not to mention it's refreshing to get other womens opinions for a change on the subject.... Being in a male dominated Industry (Logistics/transportation planning and dispatch) has made me grow a somewhat thick skin and I generally do not offend easily. However, when I approach a sales person for advice and they talk to me like I'm a moron who knows nothing... I do get a bit offended. Even when I was buying my Taylor one guy had the audacity to turn to my Husband and ask him what the budget was. We left and they lost a hefty sale and possible life long customer. We bought from the 1st store to approach me directly and they even matched the lowest price we found! Now it's the only store I go to...


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

Different art/hobbies attract different genders. If I walked into a ballet store with my wife looking for some ballet slippers, I think they would approach my wife first? 

Personnally, I think your skin is too thin. Who cares about the sales person.
Next time any salesperson igores you, make him feel like a piece of shit. Complain to the manager, and you'll get a great deal.


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

Hamm Guitars said:


> What about guitars themselves? Is there anything noteworthy in the design of the guitar that makes them more comfortable or appealing to female players?
> 
> I once made a strat for my old girlfriend as a Christmas present that had a slightly smaller than usual body, but I'm not sure that it was all that important thinking back though.


With full size acoustics I notice my right shoulder hurts if I play for more than about 3 hours without taking a break. That could just be that I'm not used to the size. I can usually adjust the strap and find a comfortable spot. Electrics and classicals are small enough.


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## adamthemute (Jun 18, 2007)




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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

adamthemute said:


>


I know you are kidding but come on...


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## adamthemute (Jun 18, 2007)

Well, if that actually offends someone I pity you.

All in good fun!


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## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

adamthemute said:


> Well, if that actually offends someone I pity you.
> 
> All in good fun!


Hey it's not that it is necessarily offensive, but it does perpetuate the idea that items for ladies need to be all cutesy etc. By doing so, it helps keep the idea alive that there is one thing for a man and a different one for a woman.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2007)

Robboman said:


> The lesson - Never 'assume', it makes an 'ass' out of 'u' and 'me'!


I like John Travolta's line in 'Broken Arrow',
"Assumption is the Mother of all F**k-ups".


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

*Thin skin? Nahhhh!*



ne1roc said:


> Personnally, I think your skin is too thin.
> 
> Has nothing to do with thin skin Dude, it's the fact that as a female I object to someone handing me a guitar because "This one is pretty" I was just opening up a discussion to see if it was just me so to speak. I realise that it takes a long time for things to come around, but thankfully, the times they are a changin!


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## Michelle (Aug 21, 2006)

Ripper said:


> Hey it's not that it is necessarily offensive, but it does perpetuate the idea that items for ladies need to be all cutesy etc. By doing so, it helps keep the idea alive that there is one thing for a man and a different one for a woman.


Exactly! And no offense taken Adam BTW. There are some, I'm sure, who would love to have one of those 'Hello Kitty' guitars or Daisy Rock because they are fashionable. But it does perpetuate the myth that all females are 'Barbies', (and indirectly all males are 'John Wayne'). The guitars are really no different than the standard offering. And I hate pink!

Women and men are more alike than we are different, (patriarchal) society maintains the gender-gap to keep people in their 'assigned' roles. What about all those people that don't fit the Barbie/John Wayne stereotype? Thank god there is much more freedom of gender-expression today. And thanks to the gender-warriors for doing that.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I think different but equal may be a more balanced way to see it.

My opinion is that due to many factors including chemistry, biology, society, and history, men and women are quite different from one and other.

We can pretend this isn't so or face the reality.

Mutual respect solves most problems in this context.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I think different but equal may be a more balanced way to see it.
> 
> My opinion is that due to many factors including chemistry, biology, society, and history, men and women are quite different from one and other.
> 
> ...


Exactly! Well said and I think that's what I'm getting at. We just want the same common courtesy in that particular situation. Applies to both genders.


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## Michelle (Aug 21, 2006)

Milkman said:


> I think different but equal may be a more balanced way to see it.
> 
> My opinion is that due to many factors including chemistry, biology, society, and history, men and women are quite different from one and other.
> 
> ...


I agree of the differences there Milkman but what I'm sayin' is that basically we are all human and society artificially creates some of the differences. This is not pretend, and when you have lived both sides you see the reality.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Michelle said:


> I agree of the differences there Milkman but what I'm sayin' is that basically we are all human and society artificially creates some of the differences. This is not pretend, and when you have lived both sides you see the reality.


If I understand you correctly, you probably have a more informed persepctive than I do.

I do agree that some of the differences are un-necessary and artificial. I do think that as with many issues there tends to be a bit of a pendulum effect. Women have been opressed and subjucated since the dawn of recorded history and there has been a reaction to that, in some cases an overreaction.

At some point the pendulum will (hopefully) stop in the middle.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Women have been opressed and subjucated since the dawn of recorded history and there has been a reaction to that, in some cases an overreaction.
> 
> At some point the pendulum will (hopefully) stop in the middle.


Yes indeed and I think in some cases we women come to expect certain gender stereotypes and can live with it. However for some reason this one strikes a nerve with me cause really, why should I have any less ability than a male, musically speaking? It doesn't take the extra strength say of carrying someone out of a burning building? I also agree with you on some people's over reaction to some things. I try to avoid that at all costs cause in some respects feminism ruined alot of common courtesy we as women used to enjoy, such as having doors held open for us and things like that. I've actually known some women who have gotten offended by that! Ahh but that's a whole different topic... Thanks for the great discussion!


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## Michelle (Aug 21, 2006)

Milkman said:


> If I understand you correctly, you probably have a more informed persepctive than I do..........
> At some point the pendulum will (hopefully) stop in the middle.


Then we can all get along no matter what the church/state/TPTB dictate. Pretty sure you understand me correctly. :smile: It was bound to come out eventually.

I really gotta get to work :wave:


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## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

Starbuck50 said:


> I try to avoid that at all costs cause in some respects feminism ruined alot of common courtesy we as women used to enjoy, such as having doors held open for us and things like that. I've actually known some women who have gotten offended by that!


Oh yeah, I've been chewed out, sworn at and a few other things on a couple of occassions, just for holding the door open etc. The thing is, it is something I would have done in the situation regardless of gender, it's just the way I was raised (please, thank you, yes sir, yes ma'am...help others where you can). 

I stopped one day to offer to help change a tire, the lady informed me that just because she was a woman didn't mean she couldn't change a tire. I told her that I had no idea till she got out of the car that she was a lady( I just saw a car with a flat and the trunk up, and was just stopping as I do when I see other motorists in trouble. She got this really strange look on her face, and then apologized.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Ripper said:


> Oh yeah, I've been chewed out, sworn at and a few other things on a couple of occassions, just for holding the door open etc. The thing is, it is something I would have done in the situation regardless of gender, it's just the way I was raised (please, thank you, yes sir, yes ma'am...help others where you can).
> 
> 
> On behalf of those of use who still appreciate Chivalry.. Thank you!


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

I think it's relevant to compare this to other instruments too. Prior to the 1870s the violin was a male only instrument in England. It was considered grotesque for a woman to stand and move her arm that much. This belief began to change in 1869 when the Czech violinist Wilma Norman-Neruda first performed in London. In 1872 the Royal College of Music began allowing female violin students. (Previously they only allowed women to study voice, piano, and harp.) Over the next two decades the violin became a completely acceptable instrument for women.

It took much longer for wind instruments to become acceptable for women. If you look at any high school band nowdays you'd think that flute = girls, but even just 100 years ago that wasn't the case. It was completely unacceptable for women in Victorian England to play any instrument controlled by breath for fear that it would make their cheeks red and puffy. As of 1888 the Royal College only allowed female students in composition, piano, organ, harp, violin, and singing.

How many of you now would consider it shocking if a girl wanted to play the flute or the violin? Probably none. In another 20 or 30 years the guitar will be balanced between the genders also.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

Starbuck50 said:


> ne1roc said:
> 
> 
> > Personnally, I think your skin is too thin.
> ...


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

*Nahhh*

Ne1roc,


None whatsoever. Like I said, I don't offend easily.. I spent a lot of years in the trucking industry telling (mostly male) drivers what to do... No room for thin skin there! :smile:


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

I have had this theory....

Ever notice how women are flocking to Jazz, Blues and Classical in droves? Seems to be the cultures more accepting of their talents.

Just my $0.02


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## bryguy9 (Jul 13, 2007)

Starbuck50:

I am a beer drinking, steak eating, Bruce County ******* and I have no trouble with my lifestyle. So it's best to take my opinion for what it's worth. Here is $0.01.

It is damn shame you had to face the attitudes that you did, in going out to buy a new guitar. I would have thought in this day and age, we'd all be passed that. A customer is a customer is a customer regardless of XX or XY chromosomes.

Now your trouble was with sales staff at music stores. I didn't know so many music stores could afford to throw away business. But that is what these businesses did.

It seems to me you did exactly the best thing you could have done, you took your money elsewhere. You might have taken it further and asked to see the owner/manager to discuss it. A Manager may not realize what his sales staff is doing wrong unless it's brought to his attention by a lost customer. And unless a problem is brought to light, it can't be fixed.

Anyway, I thought you might like to know that music store attitude is not just a gender problem. 

From my observations, music store staff mostly fall into two categories: The slow-hand who loves music and the instruments and will sit down with anyone for hours and talk shop. And then there is music store idiot. 

Unfortunately there are fewer of the former every day. 

I despise going into some music stores because talking to the staff is mind-bendingly painful or they have "the music store attitude". 

The situation isn't unique to music stores alone. For what's it's worth, as a man, finding a hair dresser in when moving to a new town, can be especially traumatic. It's twistedly similar to your guitar store experience - a gender-reversed case of, "Yes I do know what I want, save your product-goo and your full-of-manure attitude and try listening to me if you want me to come back..."

Finally, I wanted to ask, do you experience the same kind of prejudice when dealing with other musicians outside of a store setting? 

It's been my experience that most musicians see outside of age, race or gender boundaries with respect to other musicians. Even regardless of ability most musicians are just happy to interact with other musicians. I guess it's important to remember that a music store jockey is not necessarily a musician.

Ok, here is another $0.01. That makes two cents. Thank-y'all fer listening! Have a fine day, Ma'am.

giggles,
Bry


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

bryguy9 said:


> Starbuck50:
> 
> Finally, I wanted to ask, do you experience the same kind of prejudice when dealing with other musicians outside of a store setting?
> 
> ...


Hey BryGuy great note! thanks for your observations. no, I have not come upong the same situation outside the store setting. That said, I find a different problem of finding people to play with once they find out I've only been playing a few years.. It seems alot of people think they wanna be rock stars!! tee-hee.... I just love to jam and sing and play that's all...


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## bryguy9 (Jul 13, 2007)

My Dog thinks I am a rock star! I mean that's why she is always scratching at the door and howling when I fire up the Marshall isn't it?


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## bryguy9 (Jul 13, 2007)

Starbuck50:

More seriously, I had to use google maps to find Bond Head. It looks about as big as Denfield where I grew up. I can understand how it would be difficult to find someone to jam with if that's the case.

So here's an idea...

Maybe we can get the moderators to start a new group called:

"Looking for a Jam in..."

Whadd'ya think?

Bry


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## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

It's rather odd why some people think its odd for a woman to play the guitar. The guy who invented the solid body electric, and his wife...Les Paul and Mary Ford were the hottest recording act of the '50's. Nobody thought it was odd then. Are we going backwards?


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

Lester B. Flat said:


> It's rather odd why some people think its odd for a woman to play the guitar. The guy who invented the solid body electric, and his wife...Les Paul and Mary Ford were the hottest recording act of the '50's. Nobody thought it was odd then. Are we going backwards?


That example reinforces the idea that women should be married to guitar players, not that women should play.


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## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

kat_ said:


> That example reinforces the idea that women should be married to guitar players, not that women should play.


Well, maybe, but it was also the '50s when most women were still stuck in the kitchen surrounded by 10 kids. Mary Ford was definitely moving women away from that subservient role to a role of (almost) equality with her husband.

I guess that was also pre-Elvis. Elvis was probably the guy who first turned the guitar into a symbol of male virility, even though he was just a poser. Before that it was just a sexless musical instrument. After that there is a whole slew of "guitar gods" reinforcing the image. That's what women are fighting today, but it _is_ changing.


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## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

kat_ said:


> That example reinforces the idea that women should be married to guitar players, not that women should play.


How about Mary Kay and Memphis Minnie and Lady Bo? 50's and earlier. Same as Maybelle Carter.


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## simescan (May 15, 2007)

No Way is it different from anyone else ...however,,, let's just rock anD ROLLLLLL


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

bryguy9 said:


> Starbuck50:
> 
> More seriously, I had to use google maps to find Bond Head. It looks about as big as Denfield where I grew up. I can understand how it would be difficult to find someone to jam with if that's the case.
> 
> ...


I think that's a Great idea! I've had a posting up here for a while and so far no go's.. Bond Head is just easier to say than Bradford West Gwillimbury, but it's pretty much the same thing. Newmarket, Barrie, Maple where ever, It's all in close general proximity...


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

bryguy9 said:


> Starbuck50:
> 
> More seriously, I had to use google maps to find Bond Head. It looks about as big as Denfield where I grew up. I can understand how it would be difficult to find someone to jam with if that's the case.
> 
> ...


We have more than enough forums already. Everyone posts looking to jam thread in "The Band Lounge".


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

It's too bad that there are not any Canadian Drumer and Vocalist forums that you could share RSS feeds with. I'm not sure that we get many drummers hanging out here, but I could be wrong.


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## Lowtones (Mar 21, 2006)

Well the last I heard Daisy Rock Guitars were doing a tremendous volume of business. I will asume that most of that is to young girls and young ladies. However, Lets assume that these young musicians will grow up and be buying not quite so cute guitars. There are going to be a lot of gals buying guitars a few years down the line. So you may find that when you walk into a music store that the staff sit up and take notice. In the mean time just walk in and say I'm looking at buying another guitar could I have some service please. Hope it improves for you gals soon. If not drinking heavily can help take it off you mind.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

It is very disappointing, discouraging, rude, immature (I could keep going here...but I think I made my point) to know that the staff in any music store would ever treat male customers differently or make ANY assumption(s) about female customers for ANY reason(s). This is so sexist and stereotypical. Wake up..It IS 2007 !! It has never been the correct approach in the past either...but history cannot be changed. 

Everyone entering a music store should be treated with respect and courtesy and as a potential customer/buyer. This lack of respect for female customers certainly doesn't appear to be obvious at the music store where I do my gear shopping.

Ladies, you deserve to be respected as fine musicians.

Dave


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## I_cant_play (Jun 26, 2006)

> Ooops! Sorry Robboman, I was not trying to exclude you gentleman. Just wondering if there was anyone else out there with the same problem. Not to mention it's refreshing to get other womens opinions for a change on the subject.... Being in a male dominated Industry (Logistics/transportation planning and dispatch) has made me grow a somewhat thick skin and I generally do not offend easily. However, when I approach a sales person for advice and they talk to me like I'm a moron who knows nothing... I do get a bit offended. Even when I was buying my Taylor one guy had the audacity to turn to my Husband and ask him what the budget was. We left and they lost a hefty sale and possible life long customer. We bought from the 1st store to approach me directly and they even matched the lowest price we found! Now it's the only store I go to...


the attitude from the salesperson I think is inexcusable. I worked in sales for a short while and I would never just assume that the guy is paying. Either way, I think you could just use this to your advantage. Yes you have to put up with some crap from idiots, but people do really get impressed when they see a woman play the guitar (assuming the playing is good), partly because it's so rare (I know I do...). Just be good at your instrument and then make their faces turn red when they realize you can play circles around them. If you're secure about your own playing, no one can touch you..


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## I_cant_play (Jun 26, 2006)

> Different art/hobbies attract different genders. If I walked into a ballet store with my wife looking for some ballet slippers, I think they would approach my wife first?
> 
> Personnally, I think your skin is too thin. Who cares about the sales person.
> Next time any salesperson igores you, make him feel like a piece of shit. Complain to the manager, and you'll get a great deal.


I agree about different arts attracting different genders but can you not imagine why she is frustrated about this? I don't think the salesman assuming that her husband is buying a guitar for himself is a big deal. But when they find out that it's for her and they assume that she doesn't know anything and ask HIM about the budget while completely ignoring her?? I can understand it not being a big deal one time but if it happened many times I can definitely see how someone would get frustrated.


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