# My Old Guitar



## 64phil (Jan 16, 2016)

I've been cleaning up my basement and finally uncovered the guitar (and amp) that was my second electric guitar purchased back around 1963/64/65. This guitar was very inexpensive (i.e. cheap) . The guitar was purchased new in St. Catharines, Ontario. The only markings are on the headstock which says GRANGE B & S Toronto. Does anyone have any information about this make. A Google search really doesn't provide many clues. Here are some photos:




























Phil


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

http://www.guitarscanada.com/index.php?threads/id-a-cheapie-acoustic-b-s-grange-toronto.15701/

Here's some info from a previous thread but seems to be more about acoustics.


----------



## SGJones (Sep 13, 2015)

Looks like it is made by Framus.


----------



## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

Can we see a picture of the amp too? What a tease.


----------



## Gearhead88 (Nov 7, 2013)

Cool for sure ! , it even has flat wound strings . I 'd buy something like that if it showed up for sale around here. 

The sign in the background is a teaser too.


----------



## 64phil (Jan 16, 2016)

Lord-Humongous said:


> Can we see a picture of the amp too? What a tease.


Ha! Ha!. I didn't want to get side tracked since the amp is something special according to another guitar forum . The amp is a Princeton by Fender which I also purchased new in the early to mid 60's. From other posters on the 'acoustic guitar' forum (electric guitar section) it is a "no-verb" blackface Princeton manufactured in Feb, 1965 (see this thread http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=415102 ) . Here are a few photos.





































Phil


----------



## Gearhead88 (Nov 7, 2013)

Drool !!!


----------



## SGJones (Sep 13, 2015)

Gearhead88 said:


> Drool !!!


Yep.


----------



## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

How does it play and sound through that Princeton?


----------



## 64phil (Jan 16, 2016)

The amp hasn't been turned on for about 30 years so I may have it checked out by a tech before I flip the switch. The guitar used to play and sound great with that amp. I am tempted to just plug it in and try it out but don't want to wreck the amp. Any thoughts on this?

Phil


----------



## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

64phil said:


> Ha! Ha!. I didn't want to get side tracked since the amp is something special according to another guitar forum . The amp is a Princeton by Fender which I also purchased new in the early to mid 60's. From other posters on the 'acoustic guitar' forum (electric guitar section) it is a "no-verb" blackface Princeton manufactured in Feb, 1965 (see this thread http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=415102 ) . Here are a few photos.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


DAMN, why cant I find basement finds like that IN MY OWN BASEMENT?


----------



## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

It would drive me crazy but I would wait until it was checked out.


----------



## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

Nice one Phil. Hope you get a clean bill for health on the amp.
The guitar looks like a late 60's Sears number.
Not that I'd know, being a 70's Aussie kid.


Sent from my Other Brain


----------



## Thornton Davis (Jul 25, 2008)

The guitar was most likely manufactured by either Klira or Framus in Germany. I'm leaning more toward Klira due to the vinyl wrapped body which Klira did a lot of during the early-mid 60's something that Framus never did. Headstock shape is Klira.

Klira exported most of their guitar lines off shore during the 60's as an OEM manufacturer, so you'll find them out there with different brand name on the headstock. This too was something that Framus didn't do, as all of their instruments were clearly identified with the Framus name on the headstock.

TD

PS - Nice Princeton!!


----------



## 64phil (Jan 16, 2016)

Thornton Davis said:


> The guitar was most likely manufactured by either Klira or Framus in Germany. I'm leaning more toward Klira due to the vinyl wrapped body which Klira did a lot of during the early-mid 60's something that Framus never did. Headstock shape is Klira.
> 
> Klira exported most of their guitar lines off shore during the 60's as an OEM manufacturer, so you'll find them out there with different brand name on the headstock. This too was something that Framus didn't do, as all of their instruments were clearly identified with the Framus name on the headstock.
> 
> ...


Thanks very much, I think you've nailed it. When I google Klira I come up with photos of Klira guitars 'almost' identical to mine. There is one in particular that has 3 pickups instead of 2 and thus has more knobs than mine but the wrapping, body shape, tremolo bar, headstock and tuner plastic knobs are the same. I would think that there must be some hidden identification somewhere on it that would confirm at least that it is German. Any ideas where to look?

Phil

P.S. Here is a link to a YouTube video with a similar guitar.


----------



## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

Beauty re-Find!

Welcome to the GC Community.


----------



## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

That amp is a museum piece!


----------



## Thornton Davis (Jul 25, 2008)

64phil said:


> I've been cleaning up my basement and finally uncovered the guitar (and amp) that was my second electric guitar purchased back around 1963/64/65. This guitar was very inexpensive (i.e. cheap) . The guitar was purchased new in St. Catharines, Ontario. The only markings are on the headstock which says GRANGE B & S Toronto. Does anyone have any information about this make. A Google search really doesn't provide many clues. Here are some photos:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Phil, Looking back through some of my Klira literature I found your guitar in the 1966 catalog. It's a Klira model 608 "Sioux". They only made this model for two years, 1965 and 66.

Mystery solved, now you know. Enjoy.

TD


----------



## 64phil (Jan 16, 2016)

Wow! Thanks so much for looking this up for me. Any chance you could scan that page (or take a photo) and pm it to me?

Phil


----------



## King Loudness (May 3, 2010)

I had an acoustic marked B&S Grange, Toronto, that looked to be from the fifties or sixties. My guess is that they were imported guitars from Europe or Japan that were sold very cheaply in a Toronto based dealer (likely a department store). The amp is definitely a worthwhile find, too! Those are reasonably sought after now, seeing as the Princeton Reverbs go for $2,000 in many cases.

W.


----------



## 64phil (Jan 16, 2016)

Now that the make of my guitar has been determined, my next questions on this guitar relate to how to preserve it.

1. The fret board is very dirty (black gunk) and dry. What should I use to clean it and then preserve/refresh it afterwards?

2. The tuners have open gears. How to clean and lubricate?

3. The vinyl wrap on the body is dirty feeling but intact. Should I just use mild soap and a small amount of water to clean?

4. The chrome bits are very dirty and dull. Just use an automotive chrome cleaner with extra fine steel wool or something like Brasso?

I do intend to re-string it and play it periodically









Phil


----------



## Thornton Davis (Jul 25, 2008)

64phil said:


> Wow! Thanks so much for looking this up for me. Any chance you could scan that page (or take a photo) and pm it to me?
> 
> Phil


Phil, PM me your email address and I will send you a scan of the page with the 608 Sioux on it. It's very basic.

TD


----------



## 64phil (Jan 16, 2016)

Thornton Davis said:


> Phil, PM me your email address and I will send you a scan of the page with the 608 Sioux on it. It's very basic.
> 
> TD


Done. Thanks again Thornton. Much appreciated.

Phil


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

64phil said:


> Now that the make of my guitar has been determined, my next questions on this guitar relate to how to preserve it.
> 
> 1. The fret board is very dirty (black gunk) and dry. What should I use to clean it and then preserve/refresh it afterwards?
> 
> ...


I'll be interested in the responses to these questions also.


----------



## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

64phil said:


> Now that the make of my guitar has been determined, my next questions on this guitar relate to how to preserve it.
> 
> 1. The fret board is very dirty (black gunk) and dry. What should I use to clean it and then preserve/refresh it afterwards?
> 
> ...


The first thing that I always try to use when cleaning a guitar is warm to hot water and a soft cloth, with a fair amount of patience. Cleaning open tuners, bridges, and other chrome, even if it is rusty and crusty: I use warm to hot water with an old tooth brush and some patience. Careful use of compressed air to remove loosened debris and to dry. It might look 90% better just by doing simple things.

I never use steel wool or cleaners. The steel wool will wind up on anything magnetic. Cleaners tend to dry white or other colors and discolor anything gold plated. The hot water and a tooth brush makes it look much better. This method also removes old cleaners that have dried and look downright crappy.

I lube open tuners and bridge components with "big bend nut sauce" or other similar instrument lube.

The harshest chemical that I ever used on a rosewood fret board is acetone on a clean cloth with great care not to get it on other finished surfaces. Then re-oil the rosewood fret board. I know some have used lighter fluid on maple fret boards, once again with care.


----------



## LPhilippe (Jan 6, 2016)

If you want to have great tips to refresh you fret board , look at this thread http://www.guitarscanada.com/index.php?threads/fretboard-maintenance.75853/

It's always nice to find old treasure like that!


----------



## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Great find. Nice guitar and excellent amp. Best to get the amp checked first before turning it on. You probably need a 3-prong plug to begin with.


----------



## 64phil (Jan 16, 2016)

Just a quick update. The amp is in to get checked out. In the mean time I just did some cleaning of the guitar. Before unwinding the strings I applied one drop of 3 in 1 oil to the gears and this loosened and cleaned them up really well. Of course when I removed the strings the plastic nut broke so this has to be replaced. I first used a plastic card to scrape some of the crud off the finger board followed by a very light scraping with a razor blade. Then I took a piece of white pot scrubber and went along the fret board full length to clean the top of the frets. This worked o.k. but not perfect. I may still go over it with some extra fine steel wool. I'll decide on that later. I do have to get some sort of treatment to wipe the rosewood with to freshen it up. I used some mild detergent and a sponge to wipe down the guitar plastic wrap and the pick guard. It was filthy. Then I took some automotive chrome polish and cleaned up the chrome bits. It is starting to look not bad. Here are a few photos showing one before and the rest after photos. Oh and also I found some numbers stamped on the back of the headstock. Not sure what they signify but they are there.


----------



## big frank (Mar 5, 2006)

I was going to say Hofner. Does look German though.


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

The sign in the background may be worth more than both put together. LOL


----------



## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

What a find. Great to hear. The guitar not only looks, but sounds vintage just listening to that You Tube on the guitar. I'm really liking the throwback tones I heard for some reason. And it's not even my cup of tea. The amp is a whole other beast. That has to be a pretty rare find considering the makes of both instruments.


----------



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Hly crap I take that back. Reverb shows that 60's Princetons are selling upwards of 4k..... dayum!! Great basement find!!


----------



## 64phil (Jan 16, 2016)

Don't get too excited. If you look at my specific model of Princeton they have been selling for between $1200. and $2000. It really doesn't matter since it is staying with me .


----------



## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

I have an attic find amp that I've kept quiet about on here, but I might post a pic soon.


----------



## 64phil (Jan 16, 2016)

Where can I purchase a new nut for this guitar? The dimensions of the old (broken) one are approx. 1 5/8 in. long, 1/8 in. high X 3/16 in. deep with a 1 7/16 in. E to E string spacing. The nut just buts against the end of the fret board (i.e. no slot) and at some point it was glued in place. I have looked online and can't seem to find the right combination of dimensions, of course considering that a new one will have to be sanded to the final dimensions but the string spacing has to be correct.

Phil


----------



## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

64phil said:


> Where can I purchase a new nut for this guitar? The dimensions of the old (broken) one are approx. 1 5/8 in. long, 1/8 in. high X 3/16 in. deep with a 1 7/16 in. E to E string spacing. The nut just buts against the end of the fret board (i.e. no slot) and at some point it was glued in place. I have looked online and can't seem to find the right combination of dimensions, of course considering that a new one will have to be sanded to the final dimensions but the string spacing has to be correct.
> 
> Phil


Stewart MacDonald might have something. If you don't see what you need on the website, you can call them and they're very helpful with something that might work for you. 

http://www.stewmac.com/?gclid=CLHXtvjui8sCFQMQaQodC8IJKA


----------



## 64phil (Jan 16, 2016)

Thanks very much. I'll give them a try.

Just sent them an e-mail.


----------



## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

Nice find. Funny how times change. 20 years ago I would have thrown up a little in my mouth seeing this post. Now I think it's very cool. I'd be interested in knowing the body wood and whether that was the reason they covered it in Tolex.
I have to say the guitar in the video had some great tones for a "catalog guitar". Don't skimp, get a nice bone nut for it.

http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Onlin...nd_Kits/Does_this_bone_nut_fit_my_guitar.html


----------



## 64phil (Jan 16, 2016)

BSTheTech said:


> Nice find. Funny how times change. 20 years ago I would have thrown up a little in my mouth seeing this post. Now I think it's very cool. I'd be interested in knowing the body wood and whether that was the reason they covered it in Tolex.
> I have to say the guitar in the video had some great tones for a "catalog guitar". Don't skimp, get a nice bone nut for it.
> 
> http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/Onlin...nd_Kits/Does_this_bone_nut_fit_my_guitar.html


Sorry I don't know what wood was used for the body but thanks very much for the link. I seem to have trouble finding things on their web site.

Phil


----------



## Thornton Davis (Jul 25, 2008)

I'd take the guitar to a well trusted local luthier and have him make a new nut for it.

BTW, the body is most likely Mahogany. 

TD


----------



## alwaysflat (Feb 14, 2016)

You can measure the marks on your zero fret for string spacing. That plus width of the nut slot would be good start. You could compare to nuts at Graphtech once you have dimensions. They also offer blanks and custom cuts if I recall.
My Klira acoustic is from St Catharines too ('70), small world. Took me 3 blanks to get it right. ( I still saved not having to buy a file set, used dental bits in my dremel for some of the work. ) Ground bone dust stinks by the way, wear a mask, or let your luthier sort it out.


----------

