# Chinese Strat Teardown (Pepto Bismol Special)



## GuitarsCanada

This guitar was advertised as a Custom Shop 60's Strat. Total price was $183.00 CDN shipped to the door. Guitar arrived today in a very secure, form fitting hard foam case. I did not order a guitar case with it. Right out of the box the first thing I noticed was the neck. This guitar was advertised via pictures with a birdseye maple neck. This one clearly does not have birdseye.

The decals are all clear now and they are all Fender decals.

PS: There were no duty or taxes collected.


----------



## Hamstrung

Don't even go there without pics man!!!!


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Packaging was solid.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Body pics here


----------



## greco

Thanks for taking the time (and expense) to do all of this. 

I'm sure that the thread will will be the "hottest" in recent memory and will be of historic significance for GC

Looking forward to all the pics and comments.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## GuitarsCanada

The weight as carried seems right enough. I will get an official weight shortly. The feel is good. No sharp frets. The paint job is as good as anything I have seen here. Only two items stick out right now. Some type of glue or gum on the fretboard










And the neck to body pocket could have been much better.


----------



## bagpipe

I forgot to ask earlier. Can you provide the link to the guitar you bought on Tradetang? I went looking for it a while back, but couldn't find the one you described.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

bagpipe said:


> I forgot to ask earlier. Can you provide the link to the guitar you bought on Tradetang? I went looking for it a while back, but couldn't find the one you described.


 Here is the link to this guitar 

http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/f...-S-GUITAR-Electric-Guitar/123962-2474452.html


----------



## GuitarsCanada

there is no serial number on this guitar anywhere. As for the other brand markings see below


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Pick-ups have the "Noiseless" script on them


----------



## hollowbody

GuitarsCanada said:


> Pick-ups have the "Noiseless" script on them


I noticed that. I just bought some Hot Noiseless pups on CL this weekend and now I'm a little leery, but they came with the orig packaging, so I'm hoping I didn't get fleeced. Haven't installed them yet.

Looking forward to hearing how this works out.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Initial plug in report.

Strings were loose for shipping. After an initial tuning and stretching it appears to be staying in tune. Tuner are not loose but appear to be cheap. Action is way high but the posts on the bridge do not appear to have ever been adjusted. They are all in the furthest position so the bridge is way high right now. Neck is straight and true. No warping anywhere. Strings lined up properly. The guitar sounds perfectly fine. Have to be honest there. Sounds very nice actually. Running it clean through my '67 Super Reverb. All controls, switches and knobs work as they should.


----------



## blam

I'd like to see he control cavity. does the neck have a working truss rod?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Official weight on the guitar is just over 7 lbs


----------



## Alex Csank

GuitarsCanada said:


> there is no serial number on this guitar anywhere. As for the other brand markings see below


Note the use of the word "INSURE". INSURE applies to insurance. The correct word is "ensure". 

_*To ensure*_ that something will be done means to make it certain to happen._“When amending the contract, the lawyer *ensured *that her client received a better deal.”_ _*To insure*_ someone or something means to protect the person or object against risk by regularly paying an insurance company a sum of money. In the event the person is injured or killed or the object is damaged or lost, the insurance company will then pay out a sum of money to cover the injury or loss. _“The company was *insured *against accidents in the workplace.”_

The neck pockets are not very good looking, but actually I think the way they did it makes sense! That is a pretty good solution to the problem of stressing the paint when messing with the neck.

Just my initial observations. Nice colour choice dude!


----------



## Petey D

Looks almost exactly like my chinese Buddy Guy sig Strat. Mine sounds pretty decent too. Can't wait to see it in pieces!


----------



## GuitarsCanada

blam said:


> I'd like to see he control cavity. does the neck have a working truss rod?


It has the truss rod access on the top of the neck, also came with an adjustment wrench. Unknown if it works. However the pocket end is solid.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Body appears to be laminated plywood to me. Maybe some wood people can chime in here


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Pots and pick-ups all appear to be junk to me


----------



## blam

looking at the neck pocket, it does not look like plywood.

looks like 3 or 4 layers of pine.


----------



## keto

Got an exacto knife? Try taking the paint off one of the side protrusions of the pickup routes, (better yet, over where the route is deeper for the controls, where you can see more striations and 'levels') see if you can shave it to bare wood. If not, a drill with a 3/8 bit will accomplish essentially the same thing, though there might be some chipping. Could also try taking the jack out, though I imagine it's painted under there too. 

**DUH MOMENT** wait, the neck pocket - that looks like a solid piece of wood to me, no? The striations in the routing could be purely tooling marks.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Thats the initial teardown folks. Please comment wherever you think you see something worth noting


----------



## Mooh

The butt end of the neck looks pretty sketchy. Are those sanding marks?

Peace, Mooh.


----------



## keto

Mooh said:


> The butt end of the neck looks pretty sketchy. Are those sanding marks?
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


I'll guess 'yes but greatly accentuated by flash or other light source'.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

keto said:


> Got an exacto knife? Try taking the paint off one of the side protrusions of the pickup routes, (better yet, over where the route is deeper for the controls, where you can see more striations and 'levels') see if you can shave it to bare wood. If not, a drill with a 3/8 bit will accomplish essentially the same thing, though there might be some chipping. Could also try taking the jack out, though I imagine it's painted under there too.
> 
> **DUH MOMENT** wait, the neck pocket - that looks like a solid piece of wood to me, no? The striations in the routing could be purely tooling marks.


Funny thing is, the neck pocket does look like a solid piece of wood, but looking at the body cavity you can easily see several layers. Unless when they used the router they made three passes and it left the marks?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Mooh said:


> The butt end of the neck looks pretty sketchy. Are those sanding marks?
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


The butt appears to have been very quickly passed over a belt sander. Very lightly by what I can tell


----------



## GuitarsCanada

blam said:


> looking at the neck pocket, it does not look like plywood.
> 
> looks like 3 or 4 layers of pine.


Actually I think the whole body is one piece of wood. Upon close inspection those appear to be router marks, not pieces of wood joined together


----------



## bagpipe

Did you take any pics with the rear cover removed - the springs and bottom of the bridge? 

Those pickups and pots are very cheap n'nasty looking.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

bagpipe said:


> Did you take any pics with the rear cover removed - the springs and bottom of the bridge?
> 
> Those pickups and pots are very cheap n'nasty looking.


Thought I already posted that.


----------



## keto

That would be another good spot to do some 'digging', if you really wanted to know the construction. Pull the trem and do a little gouging along the wall that runs the whole way from top to bottom. I'm certainly curious, not that I'll ever own one.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

So my final evaluation would be this:

1) It was dirt cheap. $183 delivered to the door.
2) It looks great other than the two items pointed out. The neck pocket and what appears to be some glue on the fretboard (might come off)
3) It sounded fine as delivered. 
4) Weight was good at just over 7 lbs
5) All hardware and electronics appear to be junk, but work

So the question is, where do I go from here. Since I will never sell it do I drop in some good parts and take it from where it is to a decent guitar? Or should I just use it for kindling?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

keto said:


> That would be another good spot to do some 'digging', if you really wanted to know the construction. Pull the trem and do a little gouging along the wall that runs the whole way from top to bottom. I'm certainly curious, not that I'll ever own one.


I will most likely do that once I start to play around with it some more. Will keep you updated


----------



## Hamstrung

GuitarsCanada said:


> So my final evaluation would be this:
> 
> 1) It was dirt cheap. $183 delivered to the door.
> 2) It looks great other than the two items pointed out. The neck pocket and what appears to be some glue on the fretboard (might come off)
> 3) It sounded fine as delivered.
> 4) Weight was good at just over 7 lbs
> 5) All hardware and electronics appear to be junk, but work
> 
> So the question is, where do I go from here. Since I will never sell it do I drop in some good parts and take it from where it is to a decent guitar? Or should I just use it for kindling?


I'd hold off on final evaluation until you've had it for a bit. It's funny how some things aren't obvious right away and you discover them down the road. For the overall question of what to do, If I had it I'd probably get a loaded pick guard with the real deal and keep it as a player or use it for experimentation and mods that you wouldn't dream of doing to a real one.


----------



## TheRumRunner

I would love to see the build process of this on the other side of the pond. That in itself would be an eye opener.

DW


----------



## bagpipe

I have a SX bass that I bought from Rondo a couple of years ago - its a Precision copy. I think it cost me around $200. It'd be interesting to take it apart to see if they were so careless with the body routing on that one. I suspect that they used those same shitty small pots, as they already crackle like crazy when I adjust them. I'll take it apart and take some pics - be interesting to compare the two.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Hamstrung said:


> I'd hold off on final evaluation until you've had it for a bit. It's funny how some things aren't obvious right away and you discover them down the road. For the overall question of what to do, If I had it I'd probably get a loaded pick guard with the real deal and keep it as a player or use it for experimentation and mods that you wouldn't dream of doing to a real one.


I want to make a decision though before I put it back together. Right now it is totally stripped other than the removal of the bridge, which is basically two screws. I have to figure out of I want to dump in the parts. Once I put it back together I don't want to be bothered stripping it again.


----------



## Alex Csank

GuitarsCanada said:


> So the question is, where do I go from here. Since I will never sell it do I drop in some good parts and take it from where it is to a decent guitar? Or should I just use it for kindling?


I believe that this guitar should be kept absolutely the way it is and played. By evaluating it over time (say 6 months or a year), you will have better insight into its qualities and faults. Keep it and play it once in a while... see if you bond with the bugger!


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Alex Csank said:


> I believe that this guitar should be kept absolutely the way it is and played. By evaluating it over time (say 6 months or a year), you will have better insight into its qualities and faults. Keep it and play it once in a while... see if you bond with the bugger!


Essentially, if I redid it the only thing that would be kept would be the neck and body. I would replace every other part on it including the nut.


----------



## torndownunit

GuitarsCanada said:


> I want to make a decision though before I put it back together. Right now it is totally stripped other than the removal of the bridge, which is basically two screws. I have to figure out of I want to dump in the parts. Once I put it back together I don't want to be bothered stripping it again.


I'd be really curious to know how well 3rd party parts work with it. But unless you have some, or someone is willing to donate some for this experiment, it would likely cost more than you want to spend for the experiment. If 3rd party parts are basically plug and play, that holds a ton of potential for modders. EG, 3rd party parts are definitely not a straight swap on SX's. If I was buying something solely for modding, I'd spend $50 more and get one of these if parts were fairly easy to swap (I believe an SX Strat with shipping is about $130 or so). Some people keep some stock parts on the SX, but most people replace pretty much everything on them including the nut.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

torndownunit said:


> I'd be really curious to know how well 3rd party parts work with it. But unless you have some, or someone is willing to donate some for this experiment, it would likely cost more than you want to spend for the experiment. If 3rd party parts are basically plug and play, that holds a ton of potential for modders. EG, 3rd party parts are definitely not a straight swap on SX's. If I was buying something solely for modding, I'd spend $50 more and get one of these if parts were fairly easy to swap (I believe an SX Strat with shipping is about $130 or so). Some people keep some stock parts on the SX, but most people replace pretty much everything on them including the nut.


I think I have everything to do it other than pick-ups already here. So the question would be, would the parts fit?


----------



## shoretyus

It appears to me like three plunges with the router. And by the way some of the cavity edges are it may have been done by hand and not with a CNC machine. The wood to me looks like some kind of softer hardwood. 



GuitarsCanada said:


> Body appears to be laminated plywood to me. Maybe some wood people can chime in here


----------



## jcayer

GuitarsCanada said:


> .....
> So the question is, where do I go from here. Since I will never sell it do I drop in some good parts and take it from where it is to a decent guitar? Or should I just use it for kindling?


You could give the guitar to a kid !!! just a tought...


----------



## torndownunit

GuitarsCanada said:


> I think I have everything to do it other than pick-ups already here. So the question would be, would the parts fit?


I guess more do they look like they would be an easy swap? EG on an SX Tele or Strat for example, you need specific 3rd party bridges. Fender pickguards never seem to line up remotely correctly on the ones I have owned either. I generally have to shave material off to make room for the neck. I was curious if it looks like you could just add a new pickguard and new bridge with little effort.

I'd be really curious to know if a Fender neck is a pretty straight swap as well.

I am even more curious about the counterfeit Teles, but curious about Strats as well. On an SX Tele, not part seems to be an easy swap. Especially the bridges.


----------



## Hamstrung

Shouldn't there be a skunk stripe on that neck?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Hamstrung said:


> Shouldn't there be a skunk stripe on that neck?


Yes, the picture in the ad was a birdseye maple with skunk stripe. Clearly I did not get that. I don't think I will bother arguing with them though. I am surprised I even got a guitar


----------



## jmaysen

looks like a typical Jay turser type $99 retail (60 wholesale ) strat .... This guitar cost around 10$ to manufacture in china. If you order a container load you can get them for 15-20$ each. total garbage.....


----------



## GuitarsCanada

torndownunit said:


> I guess more do they look like they would be an easy swap? EG on an SX Tele or Strat for example, you need specific 3rd party bridges. Fender pickguards never seem to line up remotely correctly on the ones I have owned either. I generally have to shave material off to make room for the neck. I was curious if it looks like you could just add a new pickguard and new bridge with little effort.
> 
> I'd be really curious to know if a Fender neck is a pretty straight swap as well.
> 
> I am even more curious about the counterfeit Teles, but curious about Strats as well. On an SX Tele, not part seems to be an easy swap. Especially the bridges.


Got a set of gotoh tuners here. They line up perfectly. I was thinking that if I could replace the parts on the existing pickguard I might be better off. That way the I can just put it back on and the holes will line up. Provided that the cavity would be big enough for the replacement parts. Which it should be.


----------



## Jaybo

I think that looks awesome. I say keep it, and have fun with it. 

Or don't tell some bandmates that it's a copy, then smash it after a great solo and totally blow their minds.


----------



## jmaysen

well if you replace the tuners, the bridge, the pickups, the buttons, the pickguard, the body, the neck, and the strap pins and all the screws you might have a decent guitar.... Provided the strings are half decent of course.... lol


----------



## shoretyus

A pair of these maybe in order 

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/LUCCHESE-CLA...04010?pt=US_Women_s_Shoes&hash=item2c62f9e00a


----------



## Guest

GuitarsCanada said:


> Thats the initial teardown folks. Please comment wherever you think you see something worth noting


Shouldn't the fretboard overhang the end of the neck at the point where it goes in to the pocket by a little bit?

Like this: http://www.stewmac.com/product_images/1lg/5715/Replacement_Neck_for_Strat_Guitar_sm.jpg

Is it missing a fret because of that? Maybe very old Strats don't have that overhang?


----------



## keto

2 comments:

1) I would email them about the skunk strip + birdseye, just to see if you get a response.

2) I'd put it back together and set it up as close to your sweet spot as you can. Get an impression for nut cut, adjustability of bridge, check for burrs or machining marks on metal parts, overall fit and finish of all parts. Use it for an 'around the house strummer' for a couple of weeks, see how it holds tune, any dead spots (Strats are famous for them), see if you get any unexpected early fret wear or early signs of electronics failure. How noisy are the pups (it is, after all, a Strat-style so it should be fairly noisy in 1-3-5 BUT it does say noiseless), how do the pups respond to adjustments - all the picky 2 bit evaluation stuff.

If you're thinking of replacing parts, you could take measurements (bridge width & spacing, etc) before you slapped em back in.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

keto said:


> 2 comments:
> 
> 1) I would email them about the skunk strip + birdseye, just to see if you get a response.
> 
> 2) I'd put it back together and set it up as close to your sweet spot as you can. Get an impression for nut cut, adjustability of bridge, check for burrs or machining marks on metal parts, overall fit and finish of all parts. Use it for an 'around the house strummer' for a couple of weeks, see how it holds tune, any dead spots (Strats are famous for them), see if you get any unexpected early fret wear or early signs of electronics failure. How noisy are the pups (it is, after all, a Strat-style so it should be fairly noisy in 1-3-5 BUT it does say noiseless), how do the pups respond to adjustments - all the picky 2 bit evaluation stuff.
> 
> If you're thinking of replacing parts, you could take measurements (bridge width & spacing, etc) before you slapped em back in.


It appears that there would be a slight routing job required to get a Fender vintage bridge in there. The pickups actually sounded pretty good. Although I had a Jeff Beck with the noiseless and they ain't sounding like that.

So far, the experience is just about what I expected. A Strat style guitar, nice paint job and all junk underneath the hood.


----------



## cheezyridr

might be a good guitar to have around if nieces and nephews come over. that way you don't have to worry about dirty hands, or getting dropped.


----------



## bagpipe

I just took apart my Rondo SX Bass and it does look to be finished a little neater on the inside. On the first pic though you can see a similar "two step" process to the way the body is routed. As I thought, it also has those shitty little mini-pots.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Yes, that appears to be a tad neater


----------



## GuitarsCanada

jmaysen said:


> looks like a typical Jay turser type $99 retail (60 wholesale ) strat .... This guitar cost around 10$ to manufacture in china. If you order a container load you can get them for 15-20$ each. total garbage.....


Right on man. BTW are you not the dude that has the whole room full of Chinese made Ibanez? Or am I thinking of someone else.


----------



## torndownunit

jmaysen said:


> looks like a typical Jay turser type $99 retail (60 wholesale ) strat .... This guitar cost around 10$ to manufacture in china. If you order a container load you can get them for 15-20$ each. total garbage.....


I guess one difference is they seem to have pretty much every configuration imaginable on TradeTang. Although if you don't get what you order like in GC's case with the neck, that is kind of irrelevant.

From what I have read in other places, if you complained about the neck they would likely just send you another guitar free lol. I'd try it to see what happens.

A question for everyone regarding GC's question regarding what to do with the guitar. If all mention of this guitar being "Fender" was removed from the guitar, do you think it's unethical to sell it as a partscaster? I see plenty of partscasters with Fender headstocks, but no mention of them being Fender on them. Or what about selling the neck and body separately with all branding removed? I mean, if I was looking for a decent Strat style neck for cheap, I'd be interested in that one based on GC's review...

One other point, there are a lot of people who are totally happy with their Jay Tursers as a modding platform. They are all the buzz as a budget Strat for modding along the lines of a Bullet on other forums I use.


----------



## keto

By the way, I've sorta encouraged further evaluation of this thing but feel like I may be encouraging the wrong thing. I have no desire to see ANY more of them in North America, at least not the Fender (or Gibson, or Martin, or ....) branded ones. I'd hate to see anyone reading this teardown be encouraged to the point of either a) geeze, great value, I should have one too! or b) holy marketing bonanza opportunity boy wonder! I'm ordering a dozen/hundred and flogging them on kijiji/craigslist/forums and gonna be eeeeeeeezzzeeeee money$$$!

I stand firmly in the corner of the trademark/patent/copyright holders. And nobody deserves to get fooled and ripped off, which they only come to learn when they try and flip one they've bought way overmarket.

To answer TDU, I suppose if there were either debranding OR full disclosure, fill yer boots and go to town. I just don't trust 'us' enough to encourage it. More people are trustworthy than not, by far, but the damage potential from the 'nots' is pretty substantial. Saying that I feel like a hypocrite and a bit confused though, as it goes against what I think on another 'hot button' topic.


----------



## rollingdam

Are those wood screws holding the pickups in the pick guard?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

torndownunit said:


> I guess one difference is they seem to have pretty much every configuration imaginable on TradeTang. Although if you don't get what you order like in GC's case with the neck, that is kind of irrelevant.
> 
> From what I have read in other places, if you complained about the neck they would likely just send you another guitar free lol. I'd try it to see what happens.
> 
> A question for everyone regarding GC's question regarding what to do with the guitar. If all mention of this guitar being "Fender" was removed from the guitar, do you think it's unethical to sell it as a partscaster? I see plenty of partscasters with Fender headstocks, but no mention of them being Fender on them. Or what about selling the neck and body separately with all branding removed? I mean, if I was looking for a decent Strat style neck for cheap, I'd be interested in that one based on GC's review...
> 
> One other point, there are a lot of people who are totally happy with their Jay Tursers as a modding platform. They are all the buzz as a budget Strat for modding along the lines of a Bullet on other forums I use.


I filed a dispute just for the hell of it. See what they say about that neck


----------



## GuitarsCanada

rollingdam said:


> Are those wood screws holding the pickups in the pick guard?


No, they are flat screws


----------



## GuitarsCanada

keto said:


> By the way, I've sorta encouraged further evaluation of this thing but feel like I may be encouraging the wrong thing. I have no desire to see ANY more of them in North America, at least not the Fender (or Gibson, or Martin, or ....) branded ones. I'd hate to see anyone reading this teardown be encouraged to the point of either a) geeze, great value, I should have one too! or b) holy marketing bonanza opportunity boy wonder! I'm ordering a dozen/hundred and flogging them on kijiji/craigslist/forums and gonna be eeeeeeeezzzeeeee money$$$!
> 
> I stand firmly in the corner of the trademark/patent/copyright holders. And nobody deserves to get fooled and ripped off, which they only come to learn when they try and flip one they've bought way overmarket.
> 
> To answer TDU, I suppose if there were either debranding OR full disclosure, fill yer boots and go to town. I just don't trust 'us' enough to encourage it. More people are trustworthy than not, by far, but the damage potential from the 'nots' is pretty substantial. Saying that I feel like a hypocrite and a bit confused though, as it goes against what I think on another 'hot button' topic.


Good point. But I am hoping that any potential buyers out there also see this. It's pretty easy to determine that its fake for us. But for an inexperienced buyer, could be trouble


----------



## mario

Great thread GC! I think it's a valuable tool for anyone that has any interest in purchasing something like this. I would never buy one and hopefully the much younger members of this forum can see what they are getting if they are thinking about it. They are better off to save up a bit of coin and get a used MIM Strat.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

mario said:


> Great thread GC! I think it's a valuable tool for anyone that has any interest in purchasing something like this. I would never buy one and hopefully the much younger members of this forum can see what they are getting if they are thinking about it. They are better off to save up a bit of coin and get a MIM Strat.


Agreed. For anyone that wanted to make it a decent guitar you are looking at 300-400 in parts. May as well save up and get one that alerady has the parts in it. In terms of it being a "Custom Shop 60's Strat" it is a pile of junk.


----------



## torndownunit

keto said:


> By the way, I've sorta encouraged further evaluation of this thing but feel like I may be encouraging the wrong thing. I have no desire to see ANY more of them in North America, at least not the Fender (or Gibson, or Martin, or ....) branded ones. I'd hate to see anyone reading this teardown be encouraged to the point of either a) geeze, great value, I should have one too! or b) holy marketing bonanza opportunity boy wonder! I'm ordering a dozen/hundred and flogging them on kijiji/craigslist/forums and gonna be eeeeeeeezzzeeeee money$$$!
> 
> I stand firmly in the corner of the trademark/patent/copyright holders. And nobody deserves to get fooled and ripped off, which they only come to learn when they try and flip one they've bought way overmarket.
> 
> To answer TDU, I suppose if there were either debranding OR full disclosure, fill yer boots and go to town. I just don't trust 'us' enough to encourage it. More people are trustworthy than not, by far, but the damage potential from the 'nots' is pretty substantial. *Saying that I feel like a hypocrite and a bit confused though, as it goes against what I think on another 'hot button' topic.*


That was kind of my point lol. I am quite sure there are tons of cases of people selling unbranded partscasters with Fender headstocks that don't contain the parts they are listing. Either because they are lying, or because they were lied to when the bought it originally. And even more of a weird grey area, people apply Fender logos to these all the time. That's considered ok for some reason.

Personally, I'd love to buy a budget Tele neck from one of these guitars, unbranded, but with a Tele headstock. If someone was selling and disclosing what it was, I would buy it. I could buy the whole guitar for less than a neck from most places.

Speaking of necks, one more question GC. What is the radius and fret size of the neck??? If it's a RI, it should be a 7.25 radius and vintage frets. I have never seen a budget brand like SX or Jay Turser offer those specs. They go for what's cheapest/most common.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

I will get it back together before the GC get together in Toronto on March 3rd. I will bring it along so you guys can see it if you are going to be there.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

iaresee said:


> Shouldn't the fretboard overhang the end of the neck at the point where it goes in to the pocket by a little bit?
> 
> Like this: http://www.stewmac.com/product_images/1lg/5715/Replacement_Neck_for_Strat_Guitar_sm.jpg
> 
> Is it missing a fret because of that? Maybe very old Strats don't have that overhang?


Has 22 frets but definitely no overhang on the fretboard


----------



## marcos

My beef is that how can they pass this as a Custom Shop instrument? Lets say I have no idea how the real CS is constructed, how many people will be scammed into buying one of these? How do they do this. Any laws protecting the buyer.And as far as doing anything with it, I would just keep it as such and play it as much as possible.The price is attractive for sure,no taxes or duties.


----------



## torndownunit

marcos said:


> My beef is that how can they pass this as a Custom Shop instrument? Lets say I have no idea how the real CS is constructed, how many people will be scammed into buying one of these? How do they do this. Any laws protecting the buyer.And as far as doing anything with it, I would just keep it as such and play it as much as possible.The price is attractive for sure,no taxes or duties.


You should check out the other thread linked on the first page. It deals with a lot of these issues.


----------



## Chito

Excellent thread GC. I think it is a great 'educational' tool especially for newbies. Thanks for doing this.


----------



## hummingway

GuitarsCanada said:


> Body appears to be laminated plywood to me. Maybe some wood people can chime in here


A cheap router bit making multiple passes.



shoretyus said:


> A pair of these maybe in order
> 
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/LUCCHESE-CLA...04010?pt=US_Women_s_Shoes&hash=item2c62f9e00a


<snicker>


My 2c: Don't do a thing to it. It's not worth it. Who knows if it will stand up over time. I have to say, I'm amazed at the audacity of putting a Custom Shop sticker on it. I don't think it'll fool anyone though.


----------



## fredyfreeloader

If they look good and sound reasonable there are enough little what I call dollar music stores out there who will suck people in. Especially a grandpa buying his grandson the first guitar. It is a very interesting thread.


----------



## marcos

fredyfreeloader said:


> If they look good and sound reasonable there are enough little what I call dollar music stores out there who will suck people in. Especially a grandpa buying his grandson the first guitar. It is a very interesting thread.


Thats what i fear the most.


----------



## keto

Hmm, the 22 frets with no overhang - did you measure the scale length to see if it's 25.5"? Wonder if they cut the neck socket a little deeper into the body? Or have you got one of them newfangled 26.087" length scales 

Also, if you have calipers, could you measure both the width and the depth of the neck at the nut, and at the 12th fret?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

keto said:


> Hmm, the 22 frets with no overhang - did you measure the scale length to see if it's 25.5"? Wonder if they cut the neck socket a little deeper into the body? Or have you got one of them newfangled 26.087" length scales
> 
> Also, if you have calipers, could you measure both the width and the depth of the neck at the nut, and at the 12th fret?


I will check these out tonight when I get home


----------



## GuitarsCanada

hummingway said:


> A cheap router bit making multiple passes.
> 
> 
> 
> <snicker>
> 
> 
> My 2c: Don't do a thing to it. It's not worth it. Who knows if it will stand up over time. I have to say, I'm amazed at the audacity of putting a Custom Shop sticker on it. I don't think it'll fool anyone though.


Agreed on the multiple passes, thats what it looks like upon close inspection. The guitar did play pretty damn good right out of the box. So can't really complain there. But when you start to look close you start to see where all the corners were cut.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

fredyfreeloader said:


> If they look good and sound reasonable there are enough little what I call dollar music stores out there who will suck people in. Especially a grandpa buying his grandson the first guitar. It is a very interesting thread.


I hope no legitimate guitar store would ever try to pass one of these off as the real deal. Most people on here would recognize it for what it is about 30 seconds after picking it up. There are just too many little things that are not right. Now to someone that knows nothing... it could be a problem


----------



## ed2000

Alex Csank said:


> I believe that this guitar should be kept absolutely the way it is and played. By evaluating it over time (say 6 months or a year), you will have better insight into its qualities and faults. Keep it and play it once in a while... see if you bond with the bugger!


Yes, let time evaluate the quality.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

ed2000 said:


> Yes, let time evalulate the quality.


Yes, rest assured this will never leave my possession. I will fart around with it and put it out as my utility guitar. That way when the dogs knock it over 20 times I wont worry about it


----------



## hardasmum

Wow that's sort of scary....



GuitarsCanada said:


> there is no serial number on this guitar anywhere. As for the other brand markings see below


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Yep, from a distance very convincing. Upon scrutiny, not so much. Interesting that they did not even attempt a serial number


----------



## GuitarsCanada

GuitarsCanada said:


>



I just noticed something on this picture. Does that pickguard appear to be off a bit to you? On the bout


----------



## starjag

ed2000 said:


> Yes, let time evaluate the quality.


What quality?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

I would like to go back to the comment someone made on the original thread. The guitar is what it is, a cheaply made strat copy. So why bother putting the Fender logo's on it and trying to make it look like the real deal? I mean it's decently put together. Sell it for what it is and put a brand name on it. No real guitar player is going to buy it, so who is the target market? Young people that cannot afford a custom shop guitar and want to impress the band mates? 

They could probably do a good business selling the things without any need to put the Fender logo's on them. Just sell them for what they are. Put a "made in China" sticker on them. Half the shit we buy have them on the items anyway


----------



## shoretyus

> Put a "made in China" sticker on them.


" Crafted in China" would reap more $$$$ :bow:

ps ... thanks for doing this ....


----------



## Guest

GuitarsCanada said:


> Has 22 frets but definitely no overhang on the fretboard


methinks 21. that's why no overhang.


----------



## Hammertone

Fender (and Gibson) went to Japan, then Korea, then China, then Indonesia. They hired factories (or participated in the construction of factories) to build lower-cost versions of their own instruments. In China in particular, they brought in the sample instruments, drawings, files, expertise, and trained a workforce, whether unskilled, semi-skilled or highly skilled. 

China is a fascist country that has no belief in the concept of intellectual property and no interest in respecting the rights of foreign ip owners. The west has chosen not to prevent the abuse of trademarks, copyright or patents by the Chinese. So it stands to reason that counterfeit instruments like these would become available, especially since they are so easy to build. And easy to sell, enabled mostly by the internet. A small change at a sanding station and many of these instruments can and are sold legally under a variety of other brand names, but for less money. 

There is very little to be done about this, as the governments of the various countries in which the intellectual property owners live and work have little will to solve this problem. Fender and Gibson are making plenty money selling their own low-cost, branded, Chinese-built versions of their wares while protesting the existence of these forgeries. Yes, people will be fooled. Yes, the forgers are breaking the law. Yes, the margin on the this guitar is much higher than it would have been if it was not loaded with counterfeit labels, just as the margin is probably high for Chinese-built Fender and Gibson products loaded with bona-fide labels. 

It is thus up to individuals to educate themselves regarding such purchases. 
Caveat Emptor.


----------



## hummingway

GuitarsCanada said:


> I just noticed something on this picture. Does that pickguard appear to be off a bit to you? On the bout


Yeah, it does.


----------



## bobb

GuitarsCanada said:


> I just noticed something on this picture. Does that pickguard appear to be off a bit to you? On the bout


Not only does it appear to be a bit off but some of the screws look to be in the wrong place. On the rear spring cover, the middle screws are not supposed to be directly across from each other.


----------



## Robert1950

I'd like to see you take something to the pickup routes to see if it is real wood or laminate or whatever. The routing with cheap bits, as someone pointed out, seems to have obscured the ability to figure it out.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Robert1950 said:


> I'd like to see you take something to the pickup routes to see if it is real wood or laminate or whatever. The routing with cheap bits, as someone pointed out, seems to have obscured the ability to figure it out.


Yes, I will shave some of that paint off of there and see what we can see


----------



## fraser

laristotle said:


> methinks 21. that's why no overhang.


yeah, thats how it looks.
unless the dots start at the fourth fret lol.

aside from the pickup routing, everything ive seen in these pics looks just like the chinese bullet strat i fixed up.
it was a nice guitar, for the money.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

bobb said:


> Not only does it appear to be a bit off but some of the screws look to be in the wrong place. On the rear spring cover, the middle screws are not supposed to be directly across from each other.


Nice observation Bobb. Never noticed that back plate at all


----------



## bobb

On closer inspection of the ad, it looks like they used the pic of a real Fender. Check the heel end truss rod adjustor, raised pole pieces and a correct rear cover.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

bobb said:


> On closer inspection of the ad, it looks like they used the pic of a real Fender. Check the heel end truss rod adjustor, raised pole pieces and a correct rear cover.


That would not surprise me at all


----------



## GuitarsCanada

bobb said:


> On closer inspection of the ad, it looks like they used the pic of a real Fender. Check the heel end truss rod adjustor, raised pole pieces and a correct rear cover.


Oh yeah, a few things just jumped out of that pic. The tuners are vintage and correct tuners on the ad. The chrome plate on the back has a serial number and the custom shop stamp. This one has no serial number and a Corona California stamp on it, You are correct, the plastic back plate is not the same


----------



## bobb

Just noticed their pics also show a CS neck plate complete with serial number. Definitely not the guitar you received even though their ad states, "we send the guitar is what pictuer shown"


----------



## fraser

We send the guitar is what pictuer shown! 
You buy now!


----------



## GuitarsCanada

No question about it. The guitar we have here is not even close to what is pictured. Maybe the color, thats about it


----------



## jimmy c g

any point in sending pics and info to fender? to help stop the madness?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

jimmy c g said:


> any point in sending pics and info to fender? to help stop the madness?


Probably not. This has been going on for a very long time now. This builder/seller is only one of literally hundreds on that one site alone. You should see the amount of Les Paul's on there. 100 times more than Fender guitars


----------



## Fiveway

GuitarsCanada said:


> there is no serial number on this guitar anywhere. As for the other brand markings see below


One point to note when identifying these counterfeit guitars is the quality of logos and type. You can see in these images that the quality of the lines is kind of rough. The shapes of the letters is mostly right, but the line widths vary slightly, particularly the outline of "Fender" on the headstock. All the logos I've seen have been had a smooth quality to the edges of letters and even stroke weights.

The very small type starts to blur together a bit, where it's generally pretty crisp on the real deal. Also, in the word "original" the letter spacing is very poor. The O and R are crammed together, but the IGI are far apart. No self respecting graphic designer would tolerate kerning like that. 

I'm not sure if those are decals or silkscreen, but it would be good to check what real fenders have and see if there's any texture to speak of. That could certainly differentiate the the real from the fake.

The neck plate looks like a dead giveaway to me, just based on the quality of the engraving. The pic isn't doing it any justice, but the engraving looks shallow and sketchy. I think real Fenders have pretty deep embossing and feel more stamped than engraved. 

It's hard to tell for certain from the pics and without a real fender to compare, but my eye tells me something is off.

I've been a designer for a billion years and I've got a good eye for typography. No one on kijiji is going to see the routs when they come across one of these phoneys, but keeping an eye out for little stuff like the quality of the graphics and lettering could help people from getting burnt. No idea why counterfeiters can't seem to get type right.


----------



## shoretyus

> I'm not sure if those are decals or silkscreen


Silkscreen/laser printer for sure


----------



## greco

GuitarsCanada said:


> http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/f...-S-GUITAR-Electric-Guitar/123962-2474452.html


I had a lok at this site....77,000 products are listed !
Even if you subtract some for duplication, parts, cases, non-guitar ads, etc, that still leaves one heck of a lot of copies that are available.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## GuitarsCanada

There were literally hundreds of pages of guitars when I was sifting through. One thing I noticed though is that many of the sellers basically own little stores or work out of their houses. Very few of them are actual manufacturers. So they are buying the guitars or ordering them as required from one of the plants


----------



## keeperofthegood

Fiveway said:


> One point to note when identifying these counterfeit guitars is the quality of logos and type. You can see in these images that the quality of the lines is kind of rough. The shapes of the letters is mostly right, but the line widths vary slightly, particularly the outline of "Fender" on the headstock. All the logos I've seen have been had a smooth quality to the edges of letters and even stroke weights.
> 
> The very small type starts to blur together a bit, where it's generally pretty crisp on the real deal. Also, in the word "original" the letter spacing is very poor. The O and R are crammed together, but the IGI are far apart. No self respecting graphic designer would tolerate kerning like that.
> 
> I'm not sure if those are decals or silkscreen, but it would be good to check what real fenders have and see if there's any texture to speak of. That could certainly differentiate the the real from the fake.
> 
> The neck plate looks like a dead giveaway to me, just based on the quality of the engraving. The pic isn't doing it any justice, but the engraving looks shallow and sketchy. I think real Fenders have pretty deep embossing and feel more stamped than engraved.
> 
> It's hard to tell for certain from the pics and without a real fender to compare, but my eye tells me something is off.
> 
> I've been a designer for a billion years and I've got a good eye for typography. No one on kijiji is going to see the routs when they come across one of these phoneys, but keeping an eye out for little stuff like the quality of the graphics and lettering could help people from getting burnt. No idea why counterfeiters can't seem to get type right.


No idea why they just don't get 1000 units xy plotted laser engraved. So much easier than hand punches and item cost probably a lot less.



greco said:


> I had a lok at this site....77,000 products are listed !
> Even if you subtract some for duplication, parts, cases, non-guitar ads, etc, that still leaves one heck of a lot of copies that are available.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


It is nuts to me too Dave. I think makers like Fender are very much missing out on sales due entirely because they have put themselves into a price category three and more times higher than what these fakes are selling for. 

I do think that a lot of kids are no longer part of the "build it yourself" universe. However, they are part of the "I got a whole 200 bucks saved in my bank account and mom says I can get a guitar". Trouble with that is, not a lot of guitars for 200 bucks (in terms of variety). And if you go to places like the UK where a 99 dollar box of guitar like what we can get from walmart here goes for three times that and more to them this is a far lower price alternative. 

Sometimes it is hard to keep in mind we have 30 million of the richest people on the planet living here in Canada.


----------



## jcon

I say sand off the Fender logo on the headstock and replace it with, "Hentor Sportscaster", a la Alex Lifeson.

Thanks for all the effort you put into this, Scott.

Cheers,
Joe


----------



## allthumbs56

No micro-tilt. No skunk stripe & no nut on the neck base = no truss rod?

Love the colour ....... perfect for bubblegum music


----------



## Razbo

A legit Squire is looking like a better quality and better deal. I would be interested in the body wood and what that turns out to be. I had a Taiwan strat copy that had a hard 1/8" veneer but under that was some really soft type of wood I could easily dent and pick out bits with a fingernail. Real Alder (unlikely) or even Agathis would be a good deal consideing unfinished body blanks cost about $125 at Stew Mac.


----------



## Fajah

GuitarsCanada said:


> Here is the link to this guitar
> 
> http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/f...-S-GUITAR-Electric-Guitar/123962-2474452.html


Just out of curiosity, how did you first decide on this supplier? Seems to me that when you do a search for a particular guitar on Trade Tang, you get a bunch of suppliers, all with the same pictures.


----------



## torndownunit

Fajah said:


> Just out of curiosity, how did you first decide on this supplier? Seems to me that when you do a search for a particular guitar on Trade Tang, you get a bunch of suppliers, all with the same pictures.


You can sort search results by reliability. There are a few sellers mentioned constantly in youtube videos and other forums posts as being reliable. There is one mentioned in several videos that I checked out that clearly uses his own photos of the products, and has free shipping on all items. Most of the sellers clearly use photos from other sources that aren't of the actual product though.


----------



## al3d

I get the whole "counterfeit question" asked at least once a week from either friends or client. My answer is pretty much the same all the time, you get what you pay for in music.....................most of the time..LOL. Now, i get asked to fix, set-up or upgrade those guitars quite often actually. I always try to explain it's not worth it in any way. BUT..some still want to try it anyway. 

SO..last one i had was a Black Beauty copy...nice to look at really, decent case, to store a guitar..not to carry around much.. Kid payed 350$ in Montreal, wanted real pups (gibson classic 57 Gold), electronics, new tuners, nut adjustment, So total was quite a bit. BUT..i did told him this would'nt turn a POS into a real Gibson.

SO, after spending around 500$ in upgrade, it was actually playing ok..sounded...not quite like a real Gibby, but decent enough, remember something..a real custom is close to 10pounds if not more..this thing was barely 7pounds...so it does'nt really sound like a LP. 

ANYWAY..kid was happy......................................for a week or so. he was taking the guitar everywhere to school, band practice, etc etc....came back with it...freaking out. The back bow on the neck was crazy...so...let's work that trust rod...BAM...hit the wall fast, could'nt get the neck to come back at ALL.....then i realised the neck was totally warped as well. SO..kept the guitar for close to a month at my place to see if it would come back...back bow came back a wee bit...but stayed warp....SO...it's totally unplayable. 

SO..do all of those POS do that?...i can't say, Would you take a chance?....I sure would'nt!, Lesson learn for a kid who's REALLY pissed right now, but...now he gets it.


----------



## jmaysen

GuitarsCanada said:


> Right on man. BTW are you not the dude that has the whole room full of Chinese made Ibanez? Or am I thinking of someone else.


Yeah that's me..... the MIC Ibanez are actually fairly decent guitars for the money. And let the record stand that I actually think those Jay Tursers at 99$ are actually great deals for 99$.... but I've never been a proponent of forgeries. Whether it's Fenders, Gibson or Rayban sunglasses. Forgeries are bad...


----------



## Milkman

GuitarsCanada said:


> I would like to go back to the comment someone made on the original thread. The guitar is what it is, a cheaply made strat copy. So why bother putting the Fender logo's on it and trying to make it look like the real deal? I mean it's decently put together. Sell it for what it is and put a brand name on it. No real guitar player is going to buy it, so who is the target market? Young people that cannot afford a custom shop guitar and want to impress the band mates?
> 
> They could probably do a good business selling the things without any need to put the Fender logo's on them. Just sell them for what they are. Put a "made in China" sticker on them. Half the shit we buy have them on the items anyway


Exactly right. At this stage in the game not many people will raise a fuss about anyone copying a Strat or Les Paul. What pisses me and I would hope most people off, is seeing that misrepresentation on the peghead.


----------



## Fajah

torndownunit said:


> You can sort search results by reliability. There are a few sellers mentioned constantly in youtube videos and other forums posts as being reliable. There is one mentioned in several videos that I checked out that clearly uses his own photos of the products, and has free shipping on all items. Most of the sellers clearly use photos from other sources that aren't of the actual product though.


Thanks. If you could post some links, it would be appreciated.


----------



## jmaysen

Fajah said:


> Thanks. If you could post some links, it would be appreciated.


The last thing that should happen here is that we somehow promote the sellers of these forgeries.....


----------



## sulphur

Really good thread Scott, thanks for the effort.

I ordered one of these from tradetang...















kkjuw


----------



## torndownunit

al3d said:


> I get the whole "counterfeit question" asked at least once a week from either friends or client. My answer is pretty much the same all the time, you get what you pay for in music.....................most of the time..LOL. Now, i get asked to fix, set-up or upgrade those guitars quite often actually. I always try to explain it's not worth it in any way. BUT..some still want to try it anyway.
> 
> SO..last one i had was a Black Beauty copy...nice to look at really, decent case, to store a guitar..not to carry around much.. Kid payed 350$ in Montreal, wanted real pups (gibson classic 57 Gold), electronics, new tuners, nut adjustment, So total was quite a bit. BUT..i did told him this would'nt turn a POS into a real Gibson.
> 
> SO, after spending around 500$ in upgrade, it was actually playing ok..sounded...not quite like a real Gibby, but decent enough, remember something..a real custom is close to 10pounds if not more..this thing was barely 7pounds...so it does'nt really sound like a LP.
> 
> ANYWAY..kid was happy......................................for a week or so. he was taking the guitar everywhere to school, band practice, etc etc....came back with it...freaking out. The back bow on the neck was crazy...so...let's work that trust rod...BAM...hit the wall fast, could'nt get the neck to come back at ALL.....then i realised the neck was totally warped as well. SO..kept the guitar for close to a month at my place to see if it would come back...back bow came back a wee bit...but stayed warp....SO...it's totally unplayable.
> 
> *SO..do all of those POS do that?...i can't say, Would you take a chance?....I sure would'nt!*, Lesson learn for a kid who's REALLY pissed right now, but...now he gets it.


All I can say is that with say the SX Teles and Strats from Rondo, you get a really nice body and a really nice neck. And not just 'for the price' they are very good quality. I really think it comes down to the QC at the factory. And more importantly, what QC the company selling the guitar decides to use before shipping them. Which in the case of these counterfeits is basically none. But on the other end of the spectrum, there are companies selling some really nice Chinese made instruments that may very well be made in some of the same factories.

And Fajah, as mentioned above I am not going to post any links because that is not what the thread is about. While I am discussing some of the 'plus' sides, it's simply a discussion. I am not encouraging anyone to buy these guitars.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Fajah said:


> Just out of curiosity, how did you first decide on this supplier? Seems to me that when you do a search for a particular guitar on Trade Tang, you get a bunch of suppliers, all with the same pictures.


I basically just ordered the first strat that caught my eye. This one looked cool with the pink, the seller seemed to have a huge amount of feedback. Although after you buy something I could not find any place to actually leave feedback, so where they get it is unknown. Personally, I would not spend any money on these guitars. They are basically junk. I only got this one to tear it down and show everyone


----------



## GuitarsCanada

allthumbs56 said:


> No micro-tilt. No skunk stripe & no nut on the neck base = no truss rod?
> 
> Love the colour ....... perfect for bubblegum music


I would say that you are most likely right. There is a nut inside the top of the guitar, but I don't think there is actually a truss rod in the neck. You can move the nut with the supplied allen key but I don't think there is anything in there. No tension to speak of.


----------



## keeperofthegood

jmaysen said:


> Yeah that's me..... the MIC Ibanez are actually fairly decent guitars for the money. And let the record stand that I actually think those Jay Tursers at 99$ are actually great deals for 99$.... but I've never been a proponent of forgeries. Whether it's Fenders, Gibson or Rayban sunglasses. Forgeries are bad...



I love to mention this (and it is partly because I do remember this memory). A few years back there was a lot of problems with people buying candles at Christmas that then would catch on fire (the paint, not just the wick). That lead into those "investigative news reports" on forgeries in general. Places like Home Depot were found selling things like forged electrical extension cords. During this time too a number of people had their cell phones burst into flames and again forged batteries were to blame.

SO Hamilton Wentworth Police put a special officer on air on CHCH TV to educate the public about forgeries and how to see them. At one point he pulled out his police issued and police serviced cell phone to show what a real battery was compared to his selection of forged ones only to find while on LIVE TV that his cell had a forged battery in it


----------



## Intrepid

jmaysen said:


> The last thing that should happen here is that we somehow promote the sellers of these forgeries.....





> I would have extreme difficulty in ordering any of these guitars as it appears they are being "passed off" as Fender, Gibson etc in violation of those manufacturer's Trademarks. In essence, I would be assisting the counterfeiting efforts of the exporter. Too many of these get into Canada and the States and wind up on Ebay and end up in the hands of inexperienced buyers who believe it's the real thing. Sorry, not my cup of tea but I won't pass judgement on this until I see the branding on the Headstock. If it says Jones or Smith or China on the headstock as the brand, that may lessen my revulsion.




I agree 100% and have included a copy of my post in the original Thread on this topic. Though the intentions of this Thread are meritorious I wonder how many readers are now interested in ordering this "junk" for themselves. I noticed a number of posts inquiring about the exact url for this Forger's site. That can't be good. Though the tips on this thread certainly highlight the frailties of this copy, how many purchasers will have a realistic opportunity to check the neck pocket or pull the pups before they buy? Trademark laws mean nothing to unscrupulous vendors who clearly are "passing off" these pieces of firewood as the real deal. Purchasing these items for whatever reason just assists these thieves in perpetuating their criminal activity. I am now officially repulsed (not that my opinion means much in the real world).


----------



## GuitarsCanada

torndownunit said:


> All I can say is that with say the SX Teles and Strats from Rondo, you get a really nice body and a really nice neck. And not just 'for the price' they are very good quality. I really think it comes down to the QC at the factory. And more importantly, what QC the company selling the guitar decides to use before shipping them. Which in the case of these counterfeits is basically none. But on the other end of the spectrum, there are companies selling some really nice Chinese made instruments that may very well be made in some of the same factories.
> 
> And Fajah, as mentioned above I am not going to post any links because that is not what the thread is about. While I am discussing some of the 'plus' sides, it's simply a discussion. I am not encouraging anyone to buy these guitars.


I would agree that not everything guitar related coming out of China is junk. I think that they will build anything to the level that you specify. So for people like Rondo etc those specs are better than what we have here in this guitar. So for buying direct from Trade Tang or places like that I would be very concerned of the level of quality you are getting. This particular guitar is pure junk in my opinion and you would have to strip it clean to get anything decent out of it and you may as well buy a MIM strat.


----------



## Fajah

torndownunit said:


> And Fajah, as mentioned above I am not going to post any links because that is not what the thread is about. While I am discussing some of the 'plus' sides, it's simply a discussion. I am not encouraging anyone to buy these guitars.


Not a problem. I was just curious since I have no plans to buy something. If I was looking for Asian made product for price, I'd probably stick with Rondo for the service and the recourse. I'm at the point now where my next guitar will be a name brand, North American made, that can be played before purchasing.

Kudos for experimenting and reporting it in such detail. Very interesting.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Intrepid said:


> I agree 100% and have included a copy of my post in the original Thread on this topic. Though the intentions of this Thread are meritorious I wonder how many readers are now interested in ordering this "junk" for themselves. I noticed a number of posts inquiring about the exact url for this Forger's site. That can't be good. Though the tips on this thread certainly highlight the frailties of this copy, *how many purchasers will have a realistic opportunity to check the neck pocket or pull the pups before they buy? *Trademark laws mean nothing to unscrupulous vendors who clearly are "passing off" these pieces of firewood as the real deal. Purchasing these items for whatever reason just assists these thieves in perpetuating their criminal activity. I am now officially repulsed (not that my opinion means much in the real world).


Thats exactly why I hope a ton of people see this thread and spread the word. These copies, or at least this one here, is pure junk and should be avoided at all costs. If you look closely there are at least 5 tell tale signs you can use if you happen to come across one of these around here. For Kijiji and CL buyers I would NEVER buy a guitar without inspecting it in person. DO NOT have a guitar shipped to you from Kijiji or CL


----------



## torndownunit

Intrepid said:


> I agree 100% and have included a copy of my post in the original Thread on this topic. Though the intentions of this Thread are meritorious I wonder how many readers are now interested in ordering this "junk" for themselves. I noticed a number of posts inquiring about the exact url for this Forger's site. That can't be good. Though the tips on this thread certainly highlight the frailties of this copy, how many purchasers will have a realistic opportunity to check the neck pocket or pull the pups before they buy? Trademark laws mean nothing to unscrupulous vendors who clearly are "passing off" these pieces of firewood as the real deal. Purchasing these items for whatever reason just assists these thieves in perpetuating their criminal activity. I am now officially repulsed (not that my opinion means much in the real world).


This has been talked about in the original thread, but main problem is people buying these guitars aren't doing anything legally wrong. And ethics are an individual thing. These guitars are allowed through customs with no issues. I have never read a single mention on forums, youtube, or anywhere else of these guitars being refused at the border or held. So if there is nothing stopping people from buying them, they will buy them. I said it in the other thread, but even though ethics and legally are different things, a ton of people feel if they aren't doing something illegal, they aren't doing anything unethical either.

Obviously turning around and trying to sell them at a marked up price as the real thing is another issue. But the root problem is still the same. Anyone can buy these and import them.

Unless I am living under a rock, I haven't read or heard of any mass campaigns from Fender or Gibson to try to stop these guitars at the border. They can't stop them from being made, but they could work with whoever they need to work with to try to stop them from entering the country. My theory is that I don't think they even really care. Someone buying these guitars wasn't going to spend the money on the 'real thing' anyway. And they have no responsibility when it comes to someone buying a counterfeit. They simply care about money, and I don't think they are really losing money from these.


----------



## Milkman

GuitarsCanada said:


> I would say that you are most likely right. There is a nut inside the top of the guitar, but I don't think there is actually a truss rod in the neck. You can move the nut with the supplied allen key but I don't think there is anything in there. No tension to speak of.


Wow, a fake truss rod? That's appropriate I suppose.

As others have said, thanks for doing this. People need to know.


----------



## Intrepid

These guitars are being allowed into Canada because Customs Canada is not enforcing the Laws already on the Books. The Exporter of these items is committing crimes contrary to s. 406 (forging a Trademark) and s. 408 (passing off) of the Criminal Code of Canada. The Importer (the purchaser) is committing the same offence by aiding and abetting the exporter pursuant to s. 21(1) (a),(b) and (c) of the Criminal Code of Canada. The Law is there. It is not just an ethical consideration, it is indeed a legal one. Just because most people do not get caught and prosecuted for selling or importing such counterfeit goods does not mean it is lawful to do so. In fact, just possessing such a counterfeit item is illegal in Canada as Proceeds of Crime pursuant to s.354 of the Criminal Code. The law is there, we should respect it.


----------



## Milkman

Well if it's a matter of enforcing laws already in place, I hope they wake up and get to it.

I have no problem with the realities of a global economy, but fraud and forgery don't fly with me. Sell me a cheap knock off. Just don't try to con me into thinking I'm getting the real deal.

The real problem is when these pieces of crrrrrrrap get resold, particularly when the seller doesn't realize he or she is selling a fake.


----------



## torndownunit

Intrepid said:


> These guitars are being allowed into Canada because Customs Canada is not enforcing the Laws already on the Books. The Exporter of these items is committing crimes contrary to s. 406 (forging a Trademark) and s. 408 (passing off) of the Criminal Code of Canada. The Importer (the purchaser) is committing the same offence by aiding and abetting the exporter pursuant to s. 21(1) (a),(b) and (c) of the Criminal Code of Canada. The Law is there. It is not just an ethical consideration, it is indeed a legal one. Just because most people do not get caught and prosecuted for selling or importing such counterfeit goods does not mean it is lawful to do so. In fact, just possessing such a counterfeit item is illegal in Canada as Proceeds of Crime pursuant to s.354 of the Criminal Code. The law is there, we should respect it.


I will trust you since you seem to know the law, but find cases of this law being enforced for these guitars in the US or Canada though. People are importing these guitars with no issues whatsoever, and not being told they are doing anything illegal. A huge portion of them have no plans on scamming anyone, they are just 'buying a cheap guitar'. So if this is going on completely unpunished, without even any warnings to anyone as to the legalities of it, what do you think the answer to the problem is? Again, Gibson and Fender clearly don't seem to be doing much on their end either in the way of education, or attempting to stop the imports.

I am not a scammer. I honestly had no idea about the law you mention. I only know I can go onto a dozen web sites right now, and import one of these guitars within a week without any hassle whatsoever. It's realistic to assume there are a lot of people like me out there.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

torndownunit said:


> I will trust you since you seem to know the law, but find cases of this law being enforced for these guitars in the US or Canada though. People are importing these guitars with no issues whatsoever, and not being told they are doing anything illegal. A huge portion of them have no plans on scamming anyone, they are just 'buying a cheap guitar'. So if this is going on completely unpunished, without even any warnings to anyone as to the legalities of it, what do you think the answer to the problem is? Again, Gibson and Fender clearly don't seem to be doing much on their end either in the way of education, or attempting to stop the imports.
> 
> I am not a scammer. I honestly had no idea about the law you mention. I only know I can go onto a dozen web sites right now, and import one of these guitars within a week without any hassle whatsoever. It's realistic to assume there are a lot of people like me out there.


Judging by the success of some of these sellers and also a flood of youtube "check out my Chinese LP" etc that very little, if anything is being done


----------



## torndownunit

GuitarsCanada said:


> Judging by the success of some of these sellers and also a flood of youtube "check out my Chinese LP" etc that very little, if anything is being done


Well, and I'd venture to say a ton of people don't know they are doing anything wrong. I don't think it's being dense to assume that if you can import a product through standard shipping means with no problems, that there must not be legal issues. I had assumed if there was laws being broken, then there would be something being done about this. I use a lot of guitar forums though and have never even heard of one of these packages being delayed, never mind a warning from customs that it contained illegal content or the package being held/refused.


----------



## Milkman

Well, something should be done about it. Just wait until all these pieces of crap hit the market used. Careful and knowledgable buyers will not fall for this but many people will.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

torndownunit said:


> Well, and I'd venture to say a ton of people don't know they are doing anything wrong. I don't think it's being dense to assume that if you can import a product through standard shipping means with no problems, that there must not be legal issues. I had assumed if there was laws being broken, then there would be something being done about this. I use a lot of guitar forums though and have never even heard of one of these packages being delayed, never mind a warning from customs that it contained illegal content or the package being held/refused.


This one here came through without an issue, clearly was not opened for inspection either. The funny thing is if I order a hunk of wire from the States the packages are always opened up and inspected. This one flew into Toronto and was cleared.


----------



## Hamstrung

GuitarsCanada said:


> This one here came through without an issue, clearly was not opened for inspection either. The funny thing is if I order a hunk of wire from the States the packages are always opened up and inspected. This one flew into Toronto and was cleared.


Perhaps the governments of both U.S. and Canada are "looking the other way" with shipments from China so as not to ruffle any trade feathers. 
As for Gibson and Fender while they publicly decry the forgeries I wonder if they secretly feel the "muddying" of the secondary market is actually getting people to buy new just to be certain and is to some degree a benefit.


----------



## torndownunit

Hamstrung said:


> Perhaps the governments of both U.S. and Canada are "looking the other way" with shipments from China so as not to ruffle any trade feathers.
> As for *Gibson and Fender while they publicly decry the forgeries I wonder if they secretly feel the "muddying" of the secondary market is actually getting people to buy new just to be certain and is to some degree a benefit.*


I think there are a few reasons that they may not care that much at this time, and that is one of them. As I mentioned, unless say a store is importing these and fooling people selling them as new Gibsons/Fenders in stores, Gibson/Fender aren't losing any money to these forgeries. People ordering these online, or even people buying a used Gibson online where very likely never going to buy a new Gibson at a licensed retailer in the first place. And if people are scamming others selling them used, again the companies aren't losing money. They also don't really have any responsibility to that market, unless it was out of good will which I don't think those companies have much of lol. I just don't think they care that much about it right now.


----------



## Intrepid

There are a myriad of difficulties with enforcement. There are so few Customs Officers. It would be a Herculean task for them to open every parcel that comes into Canada or the U.S. Their primary concern right now are the importation of illicit Drugs, illegal firearms and explosives. The amount of illegal contraband that comes into this Country undetected is staggering. It would be delusional to think Customs Canada can make a serious dent in illicit drug and firearms importation without inside information. The same applies to trademark violations whether they be Gucci bags or Gibson guitars. Unless they receive a tip from a citizen they have no way of uncovering such scams and shutting them down. They need a "source" of information like they received when there was a crackdown on illegal importation of Videotapes and DVD's of major motion picture products. That was so long ago, but for a brief moment it had a major impact. Shortly after, a new importer ensured a steady supply of pirated films. It is a losing battle unless the citizens decide to respect the Law and not buy these products. We all know that is not going to happen.
I am not casting aspersions on anyone here for these Threads. As I said before, the intent is meritorious but I am concerned it may have the opposite effect. I have seen enough "copies" that were purchased by well intentioned buyers in Canada from want ads and on line sites that have been ripped off. They are everywhere. The only way to stop it, is to not support the product through purchases and to report it to Customs whenever you discover such an item. Sad, isn't it?


----------



## deadear

Hamstrung said:


> Perhaps the governments of both U.S. and Canada are "looking the other way" with shipments from China so as not to ruffle any trade feathers.
> As for Gibson and Fender while they publicly decry the forgeries I wonder if they secretly feel the "muddying" of the secondary market is actually getting people to buy new just to be certain and is to some degree a benefit.


 Excellent point . Want to have a genuine guitar you have to buy new off a authorized dealer. Glad I won't be buying for sometime.


----------



## torndownunit

Intrepid said:


> There are a myriad of difficulties with enforcement. There are so few Customs Officers. It would be a Herculean task for them to open every parcel that comes into Canada or the U.S. Their primary concern right now are the importation of illicit Drugs, illegal firearms and explosives. The amount of illegal contraband that comes into this Country undetected is staggering. It would be delusional to think Customs Canada can make a serious dent in illicit drug and firearms importation without inside information. The same applies to trademark violations whether they be Gucci bags or Gibson guitars. Unless they receive a tip from a citizen they have no way of uncovering such scams and shutting them down. *They need a "source" of information* like they received when there was a crackdown on illegal importation of Videotapes and DVD's of major motion picture products. That was so long ago, but for a brief moment it had a major impact. Shortly after, a new importer ensured a steady supply of pirated films. It is a losing battle unless the citizens decide to respect the Law and not buy these products. We all know that is not going to happen.
> I am not casting aspersions on anyone here for these Threads. As I said before, the intent is meritorious but I am concerned it may have the opposite effect. I have seen enough "copies" that were purchased by well intentioned buyers in Canada from want ads and on line sites that have been ripped off. They are everywhere. The only way to stop it, is to not support the product through purchases and to report it to Customs whenever you discover such an item. Sad, isn't it?


Using TradeTang as an example though, could Gibson/Fender not report that site? And could customs not be red-flagged regarding parcels from TradeTang? They are a massive online retailer that deals only in forgeries.


----------



## Robert1950

GuitarsCanada said:


> This one here came through without an issue, clearly was not opened for inspection either. The funny thing is if I order a hunk of wire from the States the packages are always opened up and inspected. This one flew into Toronto and was cleared.


Like someone said, don't want to ruffle feathers, especially with Canada's new BFF. Remember, we're getting PANDAS!


----------



## Hamstrung

Robert1950 said:


> Like someone said, don't want to ruffle feathers, especially with Canada's new BFF. Remember, we're getting PANDAS!


.... and Chinese government tactics!


----------



## bagpipe

Robert1950 said:


> Like someone said, don't want to ruffle feathers, especially with Canada's new BFF. Remember, we're getting PANDAS!


Are they "actual" Pandas? Someone should check!


----------



## shoretyus

Robert1950 said:


> Like someone said, don't want to ruffle feathers, especially with Canada's new BFF. Remember, we're getting PANDAS!


dude .. check the fine print..RENTAL PANDA's.......


----------



## Intrepid

torndownunit said:


> Using TradeTang as an example though, could Gibson/Fender not report that site? And could customs not be red-flagged regarding parcels from TradeTang? They are a massive online retailer that deals only in forgeries.


Now that is a very good point. Does the parcel identify the exporter as TradeTang or is there some other name on it?


----------



## Guest

Hamstrung said:


> Perhaps the governments of both U.S. and Canada are "looking the other way" with shipments from China so as not to ruffle any trade feathers.


The US owes China $6 trillion .. shh.


----------



## torndownunit

Robert1950 said:


> Like someone said, don't want to ruffle feathers, especially with Canada's new BFF. Remember, we're getting PANDAS!


Pandas are pretty cool.


----------



## starjag

bagpipe said:


> Are they "actual" Pandas? Someone should check!


Pandas has being ensured.


----------



## Alex Csank

starjag said:


> Pandas has being ensured.


LMAO!!!! You're witty there Starjag!


----------



## Alex Csank

Poor Pandas!

[video=youtube;Cw7kDjMbUNI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw7kDjMbUNI[/video]


----------



## starjag

torndownunit said:


> Using TradeTang as an example though, could Gibson/Fender not report that site? And could customs not be red-flagged regarding parcels from TradeTang? They are a massive online retailer that deals only in forgeries.


Say that the packages are flagged and returned to China. Who pays for the return trip? Is the company producing the counterfeit products to be billed? Will they pay? Is the company going to refund the customer or tell the customer that is customs' fault?


----------



## Milkman

Alex Csank said:


> LMAO!!!! You're witty there Starjag!


He spokes Chinglish.


----------



## torndownunit

starjag said:


> Say that the packages are flagged and returned to China. Who pays for the return trip? Is the company producing the counterfeit products to be billed? Will they pay? Is the company going to refund the customer or tell the customer that is customs' fault?


If importing the items is illegal as pointed out by Intrepid, none of that matters. That would be the consequence of attempting to illegally import an item.


----------



## starjag

torndownunit said:


> If importing the items is illegal as pointed out by Intrepid, none of that matters. That would be the consequence of attempting to illegally import an item.


So it should be possible!


----------



## Abrasive

Seems that most of the items are pretty general about any names that could be copywritten, and don't show pictures of brand logos, etc. So it would be pretty easy to argue that you didn't know that the guitar was going to show up with "Gibson"/"Fender" on the headstock, or that you bought the item in anything other than good-faith.


----------



## keeperofthegood

starjag said:


> So it should be possible!


Prior to Mulwhosit yes. He ended all that (or most of all that) customs inspection on items coming into Canada. His party notion was that other governments wouldn't export anything bad so why take a second look at the mail coming in.


PANDA OMG NEVER SAY NO TO A PANDA!

[video=youtube;AwCWiDfr-fU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwCWiDfr-fU[/video]


----------



## Milkman

It takes two things to stop this nonsense.

1. The will on the part of customs to stop or at least hinder such imports

2. Awareness and avoidance by the consumer


----------



## tubetwang

Mainland China has come a long way since my first trip there 16 years ago...

They have no copyright laws in China...Everything is fair game. They have discovered Capitalism.

Leo copied Bigsby...nothing new here...

I was down in Vermont for a mini Amp Fest Geek-Freak last weekend and we tested some Joyo amps and pedals...namely a Joyo Reverb 22 and a Vintage 12 Tweed...handwired amp for seven bills...cool!

As for that 150$ guitar...better leave it as is...no need to change the mini pots, cheap switch and what not...they work fine!

I would put Sperzel Locking tuners and a bone nut, go over the neck and frets, intonate and plug and play.

You got a Super Reverb? It should sound just fine...


----------



## torndownunit

Milkman said:


> It takes two things to stop this nonsense.
> 
> 1. The will on the part of customs to stop or at least hinder such imports
> 
> 2. Awareness and avoidance by the consumer


I would personally say the third thing would be that the companies themselves would need to join the fight. As pointed out in earlier posts, it's really hard to believe they are doing much about it right now.


----------



## tubetwang

It is too BIG!

They cannot stop it!!

Do you have any idea how many guitar China sells everyday?


----------



## Frenchy

Great info on these.....Thanks for your effort.....


----------



## Milkman

Stopping it may be hard, but it could sure be made it a lot harder for them.

Again, if we stop buying them, the market will dry up quickly.


----------



## keeperofthegood

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population

We are placed in a position 35. Lots and lots of meat that moves ahead of us in line to buy things cheap. I cannot see that Canada's 1/10th the population of the USA's shopping behaviours would alter the Chinese secondary market in any way.


----------



## Milkman

keeperofthegood said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population
> 
> We are placed in a position 35. Lots and lots of meat that moves ahead of us in line to buy things cheap. I cannot see that Canada's 1/10th the population of the USA's shopping behaviours would alter the Chinese secondary market in any way.


Why separate Americans from Canadians in this context? When I say we, I mean North America (well, Turtle Island to be more accurate).


----------



## keeperofthegood

Ahh yes as a whole, North America is a large shopping block. I just do not think of our nation as blended with the USA in terms of shopping. Especially in terms of what kind of influence or pressure that we could bring to the table. If China lost Canada today as a trade partner they probably wouldn't notice much of an economic blip. I think that if Canada as a nation wants to "do something" the lobby effort would have to be directed towards the USA and not China to see any kind of improvements but right now the USA has far more serious problems with their internal economics :/

I am also pretty sure there was a few big articles about a year ago posted here (maybe two years now) on Gibson trying to bring charges against forgers in China. What ever became of that anyone know?


----------



## fredyfreeloader

I can remember at least 50 years ago when Japan first invaded the guitar market on a large scale here in North America, Wow! they where called every imaginable name you could think of, then the quality got better and then we went through the Law suite era, then Japanese guitars became acceptable and now they are considered really quite good. Does this sound familiar, here we go again. I'm not saying I like the crap that China is putting out right now but what will these guitars be like several years down the road are they going to follow the Japanese and improve to where everyone will accept them. Or will they still be crap. The pricing way back then for Japanese guitars was similar to the Chinese ones now and they were real cheap junk.


----------



## cheezyridr

i'm not sure how far back you mean, but i bought a japanese guitar back in 1982 that was a couple years old _then_, and it was a great guitar. according to the inflation calculator i googled, today that guitar would have cost $720. 
when i think of the quality of that guitar, i'd have a tough time getting something comparable for equal money.


----------



## smorgdonkey

Milkman said:


> It takes two things to stop this nonsense.
> 
> 1. The will on the part of customs to stop or at least hinder such imports
> 
> 2. Awareness and avoidance by the consumer


I'd just hit them with huge duty if I were running the show.

I completely agree with your point #2 though...and that would just stop the sensible people from buying them.


Then there are the ones that ship the Canadian choice wood over there, build the guitars only to want to ship them back to sell in the USA or here. Make them pay triple for the good wood.


----------



## keeperofthegood

fredyfreeloader said:


> I can remember at least 50 years ago when Japan first invaded the guitar market on a large scale here in North America, Wow! they where called every imaginable name you could think of, then the quality got better and then we went through the Law suite era, then Japanese guitars became acceptable and now they are considered really quite good. Does this sound familiar, here we go again. I'm not saying I like the crap that China is putting out right now but what will these guitars be like several years down the road are they going to follow the Japanese and improve to where everyone will accept them. Or will they still be crap. The pricing way back then for Japanese guitars was similar to the Chinese ones now and they were real cheap junk.





cheezyridr said:


> i'm not sure how far back you mean, but i bought a japanese guitar back in 1982 that was a couple years old _then_, and it was a great guitar. according to the inflation calculator i googled, today that guitar would have cost $720.
> when i think of the quality of that guitar, i'd have a tough time getting something comparable for equal money.



The days of Occupied Japan were not good days for the Japanese name in North America. The things from there were known for poor quality and no longevity. It was a common slur to say "made in Japan". Things turned around in the 60's of course and by the 1980's they were seriously giving the US economy a run for its money.


----------



## tubetwang

Please do not judge China's guitar production by this mail ordered 158$ Strat...

For a mail order...not knowing the seller...at 158$? it is a good purchase... especially if one's is willing and able to do it's own set-up...you could sell the neck for 120 and the body for 80$ tomorrow...

EMS is the best Chinese Postal Service...fast, efficient and secure...on par with Canada Post's best effort.
5 Days to Canada is a good deal. It will cost you close to 200$ to ship it back.

One can deal with Rondo and order special custom jobs for a little more and have something that will put Fender's Custom Shop to shame.

China build some great violin, piano, sax etc.

Find the right Shenzhen's man and, for 400$ you'll have a great guitar...

And this is exactly why they will never stop pumping them out...most folks like a...huh...er...good deal.

I'm being asked about the 700$ Joyo Deluxe Reverb amps, so here goes Amplifier - Joyo Amplifier - Guitar Amplifier - Amp - YooSmart.com


----------



## smorgdonkey

You sound like you are selling the stuff or getting kickbacks.

**pseudo-punt**


----------



## tubetwang

smorgdonkey said:


> You sound like you are selling the stuff or getting kickbacks.
> 
> **pseudo-punt**


In my experience (i was born in the late 40') there nothing better at 3x the price...if you know the market...


----------



## GuitarsCanada

tubetwang said:


> Please do not judge China's guitar production by this mail ordered 158$ Strat...
> 
> For a mail order...not knowing the seller...at 158$? it is a good purchase... especially if one's is willing and able to do it's own set-up...you could sell the neck for 120 and the body for 80$ tomorrow...
> 
> EMS is the best Chinese Postal Service...fast, efficient and secure...on par with Canada Post's best effort.
> 5 Days to Canada is a good deal. It will cost you close to 200$ to ship it back.
> 
> One can deal with Rondo and order special custom jobs for a little more and have something that will put Fender's Custom Shop to shame.
> 
> China build some great violin, piano, sax etc.
> 
> Find the right Shenzhen's man and, for 400$ you'll have a great guitar...
> 
> And this is exactly why they will never stop pumping them out...most folks like a...huh...er...good deal.
> 
> I'm being asked about the 700$ Joyo Deluxe Reverb amps, so here goes Amplifier - Joyo Amplifier - Guitar Amplifier - Amp - YooSmart.com


How come the price of this guitar keeps going down as we get further into this? The guitar was $183.00 CDN


----------



## tubetwang

Oups...sorry...my mistake...183$


----------



## fredyfreeloader

cheezyridr said:


> i'm not sure how far back you mean, but i bought a japanese guitar back in 1982 that was a couple years old _then_, and it was a great guitar. according to the inflation calculator i googled, today that guitar would have cost $720.
> when i think of the quality of that guitar, i'd have a tough time getting something comparable for equal money.


By the time you got into the 80's the quality had improved to the point where most Japanese guitars had become acceptable and some had gotten to the point of being very good. The ones from the 50's and early 60's were just crap and priced accordingly.


----------



## starjag

tubetwang said:


> Please do not judge China's guitar production by this mail ordered 158$ Strat...
> 
> For a mail order...not knowing the seller...at 158$? it is a good purchase... especially if one's is willing and able to do it's own set-up...you could sell the neck for 120 and the body for 80$ tomorrow...
> 
> EMS is the best Chinese Postal Service...fast, efficient and secure...on par with Canada Post's best effort.
> 5 Days to Canada is a good deal. It will cost you close to 200$ to ship it back.
> 
> One can deal with Rondo and order special custom jobs for a little more and have something that will put Fender's Custom Shop to shame.
> 
> China build some great violin, piano, sax etc.
> 
> Find the right Shenzhen's man and, for 400$ you'll have a great guitar...
> 
> And this is exactly why they will never stop pumping them out...most folks like a...huh...er...good deal.
> 
> I'm being asked about the 700$ Joyo Deluxe Reverb amps, so here goes Amplifier - Joyo Amplifier - Guitar Amplifier - Amp - YooSmart.com


... but wait! This is not all! It you call within the next 10 minutes...


----------



## deadear

$700 Deluxe Reverb knock offs I do not think will be a big hit when a original Fender is around $1100. If they were $300 you would sell tons.


----------



## tubetwang

Handwired at 700$ with Jensen?

i have'nt seen that in 40 years!


----------



## deadear

Anyhow didn't mean to highjack the original topic. I am real happy that all you got to do is take the back plate off to tell that it is a piece of junk made out of partical board of some kind. I thought they would be hard to detect.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

deadear said:


> Anyhow didn't mean to highjack the original topic. I am real happy that all you got to do is take the back plate off to tell that it is a piece of junk made out of partical board of some kind. I thought they would be hard to detect.


Which now makes me curious as to the levels of quality that these guitars come in. Are they all the same as this one or do different builders over there build to better or worse specs. I am not buying another one to find out, but if someone else has info let us know.


----------



## tubetwang

The ones i've got are top notch...

But they are one of built to spec.

Gretsch 6120 Orange
2 Maple Neck Strat in Blue and Yellow
Custom Tele Maple Neck
Epiphone Casino
Gypsy Petite Bouche
Jaguar
Black Ricky 325 Bigsby
Black 360 Ric
Handbuilt Matchless Spitfire + Delta Pro
Handbuilt Princeton Reverb + Private Jack
Handbuilt Tweed 5C3 Deluxe + 2 Private Jack
Handbuilt Tweed Princeton + 12¨Patriot


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Interesting article here on fakes.

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2009/Dec/The_Growing_Problem_of_Counterfeit_Guitars.aspx


----------



## keeperofthegood

Thank you Scott, that was an interesting read  The charges/sentences suggest that it is a crime treated more or less the same as shoplifting though. I would have to suspect that it has to be on or very near the bottom of any police departments radar.


 fun thread too. I KNEW I remembered some time back talking here about Gibson and plant raids and such. That must have been the payless one when that happened.


----------



## torndownunit

The last paragraph in that article confused me. They talk about the legalities of the counterfeits the whole article, but then ends with this:



> In closing, this author wrestled with thoughts of buying a counterfeit Les Paul copy as previously mentioned, but after much thought, decided against it. Admittedly, I’m not uncomfortable with the notion of “sticking it to the man,” but it became a moral issue when all was said and done. *While it’s not against the law to buy a counterfeit Gibson*,* Fender, PRS, Gretsch, Ibanez, or any other bogus guitar*, you will be supporting criminal activity. That is a matter of conscience, and a judgment call that only you can make.​


----------



## tubetwang

as an ex journalist i understand the writer...he's walking on eggs...

Gibson and Fender are walking on eggs...Chinese are a proud people...if they cut them, they stand to lose.

This guitar magazine article is biased and dated...China has come a long way in 3 years.


----------



## starjag

tubetwang said:


> as an ex journalist i understand the writer...he's walking on eggs...


What about activities that would take your journal articles, maybe translate them to another language, and publish them under a different name? Do you condone these activities as well?


----------



## tubetwang

starjag said:


> What about activities that would take your journal articles, maybe translate them to another language, and publish them under a different name? Do you condone these activities as well?


i do not condone anything.

as a Magazine Photographer...my pictures where owned by the magazine that employed me...this is the Canadian Copyright Law.

We live in a Global Economy where difference abound, and everything is fair game...

Nothing stops you from buying a Custom Shop in California, or, China...and some folks want to play guitars without tacking a second morgage.

As the 2009 Premier Guitar article, do you think the article would of been published if the writer wrote a raving Chinese guitar review?

The article would never been published...Premier Guitar's budget comes from Guitar related ads...


----------



## keeperofthegood

starjag said:


> What about activities that would take your journal articles, maybe translate them to another language, and publish them under a different name? Do you condone these activities as well?


I think there are a few kinds of responses to this:


You could look carefully at the personal wealth of the person in question, and depending on how much restitution (lawyers do cost money) you can expect to get you can either:


Do nothing at all
File a complaint, have a lawyer send a letter.

*OR* you may find by
looking carefully at the person you may decide that you simply would rather NOT tango with them. I mean, if say John Gotti was all a gaww and took your works to make mew-mew offerings to his wife I think I would be the kind of person that would very happily look the other way.

I think that may be part of the Chinese Problem. To tango with them is akin to swimming with sharks.


----------



## hummingway

tubetwang said:


> We live in a Global Economy where difference abound, and everything is fair game...
> 
> Nothing stops you from buying a Custom Shop in California, or, China...and some folks want to play guitars without tacking a second morgage.


You've always had the choice to buy something that fell off the back of the truck, to run a ponzi scheme, to lie, cheat and steal to get ahead or to not do these things. To claim that the internet or a global economy suddenly makes these things no longer immoral is BS. To claim that someone wanting a cheap guitar makes it ok is even lower. 

The guitar that spawned this thread is a clear example trademark theft and fraud. There's no excusing that away.


----------



## Bubb

hummingway said:


> You've always had the choice to buy something that fell off the back of the truck, to run a ponzi scheme, to lie, cheat and steal to get ahead or to not do these things. To claim that the internet or a global economy suddenly makes these things no longer immoral is BS. To claim that someone wanting a cheap guitar makes it ok is even lower. The guitar that spawned this thread is a clear example trademark theft and fraud. There's no excusing that away.


 Right,it's not about whether someone in China can make a good product,it's about the counterfeiting , period .


----------



## GuitarsCanada

hummingway said:


> You've always had the choice to buy something that fell off the back of the truck, to run a ponzi scheme, to lie, cheat and steal to get ahead or to not do these things. To claim that the internet or a global economy suddenly makes these things no longer immoral is BS. To claim that someone wanting a cheap guitar makes it ok is even lower.
> 
> The guitar that spawned this thread is a clear example trademark theft and fraud. There's no excusing that away.


One interesting thing to note on that guitar is that nowhere on the ad or in the pictures does it say Fender. I assumed of course that it was a fake including all the decals. But I would also assume that some people might not. Hard as that may be to believe.


----------



## tubetwang

Strat shape is in the public domain...

Most folks will want the decal...

In my experience, by looking at the poor routing, the OP strat is a at the very low end.

Those can be bought at 25-30$ at the factory...

Pay double and you've got a better mouse trap.


----------



## smorgdonkey

tubetwang said:


> The ones i've got are top notch...


In YOUR opinion.



tubetwang said:


> Nothing stops you from buying a Custom Shop in California, or, China...and some folks want to play guitars without tacking a second morgage.


You just posted a list of guitars - you could have had a fantastic stable oof 3 or 4 guitars with that budget.

*My opinion* is that you don't know the difference between a good one and a bad one...but you love to talk about it on the internet. This puts me in mind of this other fellow on another board, he is always recommending this product or that product and referencing the level of quality...then he posts videos of himself playing and singing & he is about a 5 or 6 month ability level.


Anyway, before twang had to show up talking about how Chinese products are so much better than everything else, I was quite enjoying the thread. Excellent pictures too.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

I would just like to chime in here and say thanks for the thread and putting your own cash on the line for the informative unbuild(????). It takes a bit of them hangy down things to do it in a public forum where you know you are going to draw some heat. Congratulations on being an educator.


----------



## Milkman

Tube twang,

So, nothing is off limits? 

Plagiarism, bootleg software, pretty much any intellectual property rights are completely meaningless?

Seems like rationalization of bad ethics to me.

The Strat body shape may be public domain, but the name Fender Stratocaster belongs to someone if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## starjag

Milkman said:


> So, nothing is off limits? Plagiarism, bootleg software, pretty much any intellectual property rights are completely meaningless?


Apparently it depends if you're proud people or not.


----------



## smorgdonkey

starjag said:


> Apparently it depends if you're proud people or not.


HAHAAA!! That cracked me up fully!!

Cheers for that!


----------



## tubetwang

I really don't understand why i annoyed Donkey...

I understand that China bashing is popular these days but...

We are talking about Chinese guitars here...i've visited many Chinese shops, my daughter is Chinese, i've built 25+ tube guitar amps and guitars + i've been playing guitar since the early 60's and am one of the founding father of Qc-Vermont Ampfest...so my opinion is as good as anybody else...and it is just an opinion...

But being the respectfull type...i'll restrain my visit here in the future...

So long folks!


smorgdonkey said:


> In YOUR opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> You just posted a list of guitars - you could have had a fantastic stable oof 3 or 4 guitars with that budget.
> 
> *My opinion* is that you don't know the difference between a good one and a bad one...but you love to talk about it on the internet. This puts me in mind of this other fellow on another board, he is always recommending this product or that product and referencing the level of quality...then he posts videos of himself playing and singing & he is about a 5 or 6 month ability level.
> 
> 
> Anyway, before twang had to show up talking about how Chinese products are so much better than everything else, I was quite enjoying the thread. Excellent pictures too.


----------



## smorgdonkey

Well, it isn't my place so don't let me influence you to leave - I'm just a member like any other.


If it had been my place I would have kicked you out the last time we 'chatted'.


----------



## Intrepid

tubetwang said:


> I understand that China bashing is popular these days but...
> So long folks!


I really do not think this Thread is about "China bashing" at all. I think our illustrious founder would have authored this Thread if the source of these counterfeit guitars was Germany, England, Australia etc. It is the fact that these companies are profiting from distributing illict musical instruments that we find troubling. I am sure there are many excellent factories in China and elsewhere that manufacture fine instruments and sell them under a legitimate brand name. I have no quarrel with that. I draw the line on "passing off" and "fraud" as a source of revenue and pride for any nation.
What has started as an educational thread on spotting counterfeit junk has devolved into a quasi "race card" argument. I now gracefully bow out of this topic.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Intrepid said:


> I really do not think this Thread is about "China bashing" at all. I think our illustrious founder would have authored this Thread if the source of these counterfeit guitars was Germany, England, Australia etc. It is the fact that these companies are profiting from distributing illict musical instruments that we find troubling. I am sure there are many excellent factories in China and elsewhere that manufacture fine instruments and sell them under a legitimate brand name. I have no quarrel with that. I draw the line on "passing off" and "fraud" as a source of revenue and pride for any nation.
> What has started as an educational thread on spotting counterfeit junk has devolved into a quasi "race card" argument. I now gracefully bow out of this topic.


It's unfortunate that it went that way. Certainly not the original intention


----------



## Alex Csank

Boys and girls, let's play nice OK? I am really glad that Scott put this thing together.


----------



## jmaysen

Let's not forget that this is about FORGERIES not legitimately made Chinese guitars.... Paying a wee bit more and get a name brand guitar from china is not a bad idea..... They're are some real gems out there. I have a few all solid acoustics that are made in china. for the money, not much comes close for tone and play-ability. By careful with your humidity levels though....


----------



## Robert1950

As jmaysen says, this thread was about COUNTERFEITS, FORGERIES. Not legitimate operations like Epiphone and such.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Robert1950 said:


> As jmaysen says, this thread was about COUNTERFEITS, FORGERIES. Not legitimate operations like Epiphone and such.


That would be a correct statement. I for one, have no issues with the Chinese making and selling guitars or anyone buying them. Just think the whole forgery thing needs to go


----------



## torndownunit

The other factor is that we are talking about a country who basically completely allows counterfeiting to run rampant. It's not 'bashing China' to take exception to that.


----------



## keeperofthegood

Yes, thank you Scott for bringing this discussion to the floor. I don't see the "fake guitar from China" as the only problem but one part of a much larger overall issue. Not only do fake guitars make it into Canada but fake light bulbs, fake batteries (as I mentioned) and recently there was a slew of fake medications. 

Policing of Chinese businesses is up to the Chinese police, but policing of goods entering Canada is the business of Canada Customs. I may not feel we as Canadians can do much to stop China's business practices, we can bring out issues to our political leaders. Also, we can talk to other nations and collectively (a joint effort of the USA and the EU and the UK and Canada etc etc) may be something we as "joe public" should be calling our MP/P over.

BUT That all takes money and money is something not a lot of governments have. I think I heard last night that Ontario has a 16 billion dollar budget shortfall. Be it an individual who is thefted by copyright/trademarks or a major corporation or a government to fight back does take money and does take knowing that the person/organization/nation you are fighting back against isn't of the mind and disposition to simply make your life a living hades for it. It would suck to be an American when the Chinese say "ok, we accept your fight, but first you owe us a lot of money and your payment is due in full."


----------



## GuitarsCanada

laristotle said:


> methinks 21. that's why no overhang.


It is actually 21 frets



Fiveway said:


> One point to note when identifying these counterfeit guitars is the quality of logos and type. You can see in these images that the quality of the lines is kind of rough. The shapes of the letters is mostly right, but the line widths vary slightly, particularly the outline of "Fender" on the headstock. All the logos I've seen have been had a smooth quality to the edges of letters and even stroke weights.
> 
> The very small type starts to blur together a bit, where it's generally pretty crisp on the real deal. Also, in the word "original" the letter spacing is very poor. The O and R are crammed together, but the IGI are far apart. No self respecting graphic designer would tolerate kerning like that.
> 
> I'm not sure if those are decals or silkscreen, but it would be good to check what real fenders have and see if there's any texture to speak of. That could certainly differentiate the the real from the fake.
> 
> The neck plate looks like a dead giveaway to me, just based on the quality of the engraving. The pic isn't doing it any justice, but the engraving looks shallow and sketchy. I think real Fenders have pretty deep embossing and feel more stamped than engraved.
> 
> It's hard to tell for certain from the pics and without a real fender to compare, but my eye tells me something is off.
> 
> I've been a designer for a billion years and I've got a good eye for typography. No one on kijiji is going to see the routs when they come across one of these phoneys, but keeping an eye out for little stuff like the quality of the graphics and lettering could help people from getting burnt. No idea why counterfeiters can't seem to get type right.


They are not decals for sure. They look pretty good, whatever process they used but you can tell they are not decals. The engraving on the back plate is extremely light. Maybe one pass, not deep at all


----------



## Guitar101

GuitarsCanada said:


> So my final evaluation would be this:
> 
> 1) It was dirt cheap. $183 delivered to the door.
> 2) It looks great other than the two items pointed out. The neck pocket and what appears to be some glue on the fretboard (might come off)
> 3) It sounded fine as delivered.
> 4) Weight was good at just over 7 lbs
> 5) All hardware and electronics appear to be junk, but work
> 
> So the question is, where do I go from here. Since I will never sell it do I drop in some good parts and take it from where it is to a decent guitar? Or should I just use it for kindling?


I’ve been reading these threads on Chinese guitars with interest. Since the goal of this project is to help potential buyers be aware of what’s out there so that they don’t get ripped off while buying their new guitar. It’s seems to me that so far, the thread has failed to do so. We have posters who want to impose their will on anyone who is even considering buying one of these guitars and we have posters that would be very happy with purchasing one of these guitars. I personally don’t care what you do. It’s your decision either way. I do care if someone gets ripped off thinking they are buying a original Gibson or Fender when they are in fact, purchasing one of these counterfeit’s.

Here are a few concerns I’ve come up with that we need answers too but we need more:

If someone changes out the electronics and hardware on these counterfeit guitars. Could we then be fooled into thinking that we are buying an original Gibson or Fender? I don’t have an original Gibson or Fender so you people that do will have to answer this one.

There was some mention of labelling but the Chinese labels on the guitar in the pics could have fooled me.

There was mention of the neck pocket not being a perfect fit. Are the original Fender Strat neck pockets a perfect fit? (Check your neck pockets and let us know). I checked a Chinese made Squier Strat for sale at Costco today and the neck pocket was a tight fit, however, there was glue on the guitar around the neck pocket. This is probably not an issue with set necks.

Fret count. Do Gibson’s & Fender’s have 22 and Chinese counterfeit have 21. That would be too easy but who knows.

Please don’t comment on this post. Let just get down to the business at hand... Hopefully we can come up with a list of Do’s and Don’ts for potential buyers at the completion of the thread.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Guitar101 said:


> I’ve been reading these threads on Chinese guitars with interest. Since the goal of this project is to help potential buyers be aware of what’s out there so that they don’t get ripped off while buying their new guitar. It’s seems to me that so far, the thread has failed to do so. We have posters who want to impose their will on anyone who is even considering buying one of these guitars and we have posters that would be very happy with purchasing one of these guitars. I personally don’t care what you do. It’s your decision either way. I do care if someone gets ripped off thinking they are buying a original Gibson or Fender when they are in fact, purchasing one of these counterfeit’s.
> 
> Here are a few concerns I’ve come up with that we need answers too but we need more:
> 
> If someone changes out the electronics and hardware on these counterfeit guitars. Could we then be fooled into thinking that we are buying an original Gibson or Fender? I don’t have an original Gibson or Fender so you people that do will have to answer this one.
> 
> There was some mention of labelling but the Chinese labels on the guitar in the pics could have fooled me.
> 
> There was mention of the neck pocket not being a perfect fit. Are the original Fender Strat neck pockets a perfect fit? (Check your neck pockets and let us know). I checked a Chinese made Squier Strat for sale at Costco today and the neck pocket was a tight fit, however, there was glue on the guitar around the neck pocket. This is probably not an issue with set necks.
> 
> Fret count. Do Gibson’s & Fender’s have 22 and Chinese counterfeit have 21. That would be too easy but who knows.
> 
> Please don’t comment on this post. Let just get down to the business at hand... Hopefully we can come up with a list of Do’s and Don’ts for potential buyers at the completion of the thread.


First of all is it just me or is there a ton of little blocks in that post? 

As far as the guitar goes I have personally owned at least 7 strats and 2 very high end ones. If I were to meet someone that had this one for sale as a custom shop strat I would be able to tell it was nowhere near it in about 30 seconds.

It's not even close to the lowest end Strat I have ever owned. Now there may be some Chinese fakes out there that are a lot better, but this one is terrible. When you hold a very high end guitar it just feels that way. Everything about it is smooth and perfect. These guitars are total junk


----------



## mario

Guitar101 said:


> I’ve been reading these threads on Chinese guitars with interest. Since the goal of this project is to help potential buyers be aware of what’s out there so that they don’t get ripped off while buying their new guitar. It’s seems to me that so far, the thread has failed to do so. We have posters who want to impose their will on anyone who is even considering buying one of these guitars and we have posters that would be very happy with purchasing one of these guitars. I personally don’t care what you do. It’s your decision either way. I do care if someone gets ripped off thinking they are buying a original Gibson or Fender when they are in fact, purchasing one of these counterfeit’s.
> 
> Here are a few concerns I’ve come up with that we need answers too but we need more:
> 
> If someone changes out the electronics and hardware on these counterfeit guitars. Could we then be fooled into thinking that we are buying an original Gibson or Fender? I don’t have an original Gibson or Fender so you people that do will have to answer this one.
> 
> There was some mention of labelling but the Chinese labels on the guitar in the pics could have fooled me.
> 
> There was mention of the neck pocket not being a perfect fit. Are the original Fender Strat neck pockets a perfect fit? (Check your neck pockets and let us know). I checked a Chinese made Squier Strat for sale at Costco today and the neck pocket was a tight fit, however, there was glue on the guitar around the neck pocket. This is probably not an issue with set necks.
> 
> Fret count. Do Gibson’s & Fender’s have 22 and Chinese counterfeit have 21. That would be too easy but who knows.
> 
> Please don’t comment on this post. Let just get down to the business at hand... Hopefully we can come up with a list of Do’s and Don’ts for potential buyers at the completion of the thread.


How has this thread failed to do so? The OP has posted a ton of pics and yet you feel it's a fail? Just looking at the pics you can tell what a POS it is.


----------



## torndownunit

Guitar101 said:


> I’ve been reading these threads on Chinese guitars with interest. Since the goal of this project is to help potential buyers be aware of what’s out there so that they don’t get ripped off while buying their new guitar. It’s seems to me that so far, the thread has failed to do so. We have posters who want to impose their will on anyone who is even considering buying one of these guitars and we have posters that would be very happy with purchasing one of these guitars. I personally don’t care what you do. It’s your decision either way. I do care if someone gets ripped off thinking they are buying a original Gibson or Fender when they are in fact, purchasing one of these counterfeit’s.
> 
> Here are a few concerns I’ve come up with that we need answers too but we need more:
> 
> If someone changes out the electronics and hardware on these counterfeit guitars. Could we then be fooled into thinking that we are buying an original Gibson or Fender? I don’t have an original Gibson or Fender so you people that do will have to answer this one.
> 
> There was some mention of labelling but the Chinese labels on the guitar in the pics could have fooled me.
> 
> There was mention of the neck pocket not being a perfect fit. Are the original Fender Strat neck pockets a perfect fit? (Check your neck pockets and let us know). I checked a Chinese made Squier Strat for sale at Costco today and the neck pocket was a tight fit, however, there was glue on the guitar around the neck pocket. This is probably not an issue with set necks.
> 
> Fret count. Do Gibson’s & Fender’s have 22 and Chinese counterfeit have 21. That would be too easy but who knows.
> 
> Please don’t comment on this post. Let just get down to the business at hand... Hopefully we can come up with a list of Do’s and Don’ts for potential buyers at the completion of the thread.


No trying to he harsh, but did you read the first posts? As soon as someone looked at the sample being discussed they would immediately see issues. Those issues/differences in the real thing were pointed out in several posts.

Say we ignored all the crappy hardware on the sample Scott got, or for the sake of argument say it had been replaced.... just take one look at that photo of the routing job and it's a dead giveaway. No custom shop Fender (and likely not even a production run Fender) is going to have routing that bad. And even if someone changed the hardware, other aspects of the neck are a dead giveaway as well (the truss rod issues).

The early part of the thread has a pretty clear list of the 'do's and don'ts' you are mentioning. I am only repeating the info already posted in the first 3-4 pages of the thread.


----------



## fredyfreeloader

Unless I'm a regular to GC how would I see that list of Do's and Don'ts.
Suppose I'm that Granpa who goes out and buys his grandson that very first guitar, as such I don't know dick all about guitars and I'm going to get hosed.
Most of the people who are on GC have a fairly good knowledge of guitars so why do they want or need a list of do's and don'ts they only have to ask here on GC and get answers. A list of do's and don'ts should be available to the general public and GC is a forum for guitar oriented people not an information center for the general public.
I am a little more fortunate than a lot of Grandfathers as I have been around music for over 50 years, but in all that time I never owned a Fender guitar of any kind until Sept. 2011 with out my previous knowledge of guitars and personal connections. Yes, I could very easily have been sucked in.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

We are hoping the junior members read this and look at the pictures so they can see what we are talking about. Also, a lot of people will do searches or try and read up on something before they buy. So hopefully someone in that position may stumble upon this thread.


----------



## mario

GuitarsCanada said:


> We are hoping the junior members read this and look at the pictures so they can see what we are talking about. Also, a lot of people will do searches or try and read up on something before they buy. So hopefully someone in that position may stumble upon this thread.


^^^^^This! I would hate to see some kid saving his or her money and end up with a POS guitar.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

fredyfreeloader said:


> Unless I'm a regular to GC how would I see that list of Do's and Don'ts.
> Suppose I'm that Granpa who goes out and buys his grandson that very first guitar, as such I don't know dick all about guitars and I'm going to get hosed.
> Most of the people who are on GC have a fairly good knowledge of guitars so why do they want or need a list of do's and don'ts they only have to ask here on GC and get answers. A list of do's and don'ts should be available to the general public and GC is a forum for guitar oriented people not an information center for the general public.
> I am a little more fortunate than a lot of Grandfathers as I have been around music for over 50 years, but in all that time I never owned a Fender guitar of any kind until Sept. 2011 with out my previous knowledge of guitars and personal connections. Yes, I could very easily have been sucked in.


Also, I think the best advise I can give anyone that is in this position. Someone that is maybe buying a guitar for someone else. Someone that knows nothing about guitars... STAY AWAY FROM KIJIJI AND CL !!!!

Go to a guitar store or have someone that knows what they are doing go and look at it for you. The free boards are where these knock-offs are going to show up 99% of the time.


----------



## Milkman

That's my biggest concern. With so many of these fakes flooding the market, the chances of bad transactions in the used market is going to explode.

Not everybody is an expert. People are getting ripped off and unless something is done it's likely to get a lot worse.


----------



## torndownunit

fredyfreeloader said:


> Unless I'm a regular to GC how would I see that list of Do's and Don'ts.
> Suppose I'm that Granpa who goes out and buys his grandson that very first guitar, as such I don't know dick all about guitars and I'm going to get hosed.
> Most of the people who are on GC have a fairly good knowledge of guitars so why do they want or need a list of do's and don'ts they only have to ask here on GC and get answers. A list of do's and don'ts should be available to the general public and GC is a forum for guitar oriented people not an information center for the general public.
> I am a little more fortunate than a lot of Grandfathers as I have been around music for over 50 years, but in all that time I never owned a Fender guitar of any kind until Sept. 2011 with out my previous knowledge of guitars and personal connections. Yes, I could very easily have been sucked in.


This thread will be available through Google searches, just like any other forums threads. The more popular the thread gets, the more people are likely to see it. Search any question on Google nowadays, and forum threads will be some of the top results.

I am not sure what the complaint is here. Are you implying that this thread servers no purpose? Someone on the forum bought the guitar to do a test/experiment. What else exactly can this forum do about the problem? If no one takes the time to spread the word with the platforms they have available to them, how is the information going to get out?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

torndownunit said:


> This thread will be available through Google searches, just like any other forums threads. The more popular the thread gets, the more people are likely to see it.
> 
> Are you implying that this thread servers no purpose? I am not sure what the complaint is here. Someone on the forum bought the guitar to do a test/experiment. What else exactly can this forum do about the problem?


I think it's two fold. One it gives everyone a chance to see some of the things to look for if they come across one used but secondly, it certainly shows people that even at $200 or so are you really getting a deal? I mean this thing does not even have a functioning truss rod. Lord knows what the body is made out of


----------



## torndownunit

GuitarsCanada said:


> I think it's two fold. One it gives everyone a chance to see some of the things to look for if they come across one used but secondly, it certainly shows people that even at $200 or so are you really getting a deal? I mean this thing does not even have a functioning truss rod. Lord knows what the body is made out of


Having owned an SX, there is not even a comparison between what you got and an SX. You can get a whole lot more guitar for less. You can get a Squier Bullet for less, and from the photos even it would be a better guitar. So you can get a decent guitar for that price if that's your limit... but buy from a reliable source/brand.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

torndownunit said:


> Having owned an SX, there is not even a comparison between what you got and an SX. You can get a whole lot more guitar for less. You can get a Squier Bullet for less, and from the photos even it would be a better guitar. So you can get a decent guitar for that price if that's your limit... but buy from a reliable source/brand.


I will take your word for it but "a whole lot more guitar" for under $180 is really stretching it. Unless you are looking at a lot of upgrade parts, then it's not $180 anymore.


----------



## Robert1950

Hey Scott. I dare you to saw a chunk out of body to see what it's really made of. Or the tip of the lower horn.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Robert1950 said:


> Hey Scott. I dare you to saw a chunk out of body to see what it's really made of. Or the tip of the lower horn.


I have to get back inside it soon. I wired something up wrong and it is not working. So when I open it back up I will get into that cavity and clear out some wood and see what we have there. I will bring it up to the Hard Rock and you can check it out. If you have ever had a bottle of Pepto Bismol, thats exactly the colour of this guitar.


----------



## J-75

Milkman said:


> Tube twang,
> 
> 
> The Strat body shape may be public domain, but the name Fender Stratocaster belongs to someone if I'm not mistaken.


I'm always seeing "Fender" Stratocasters/Partscasters on CL & Kijiji that can be considered extremely misleading to the uninitiated.

I replied to one recently, challenging his misuse of the Fender name. I got an aggressive response, justifying the use of the name "Fender" in the ad title, as well as on the instrument: because the neck was made by a "Fender-licensed" company.
All the rest of it was assembled with assorted aftermarket parts. This instrument _has never been inside a Fender factory_, _nor has any part of it ever been handled by a Fender employee_, yet the owner insists on referring to it as a "Fender" - that's just not right.
Build quality? - chances are good that it was assembled and set up by some amateur, perhaps as his first project.


----------



## torndownunit

GuitarsCanada said:


> I will take your word for it but "a whole lot more guitar" for under $180 is really stretching it. Unless you are looking at a lot of upgrade parts, then it's not $180 anymore.


Well, the SX have great construction in general, a functioning truss rod, and can really be used stock (I kept an STL stock for a year). They even just plain look better than the one in the photos. So that classifies as a 'whole lot more guitar' compared to the forgery I think? Though anything with a functioning truss rod would lol.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

torndownunit said:


> Well, the SX have great construction in general, a functioning truss rod, and can really be used stock (I kept an STL stock for a year). They even just plain look better than the one in the photos. So that classifies as a 'whole lot more guitar' compared to the forgery I think? *Though anything with a functioning truss rod would lol.*


Can't argue with that my man


----------



## torndownunit

J-75 said:


> I'm always seeing "Fender" Stratocasters/Partscasters on CL & Kijiji that can be considered extremely misleading to the uninitiated.
> 
> I replied to one recently, challenging his misuse of the Fender name. I got an aggressive response, justifying the use of the name "Fender" in the ad title, as well as on the instrument: because the neck was made by a "Fender-licensed" company.
> All the rest of it was assembled with assorted aftermarket parts. This instrument _has never been inside a Fender factory_, _nor has any part of it ever been handled by a Fender employee_, yet the owner insists on referring to it as a "Fender" - that's just not right.
> Build quality? - chances are good that it was assembled and set up by some amateur, perhaps as his first project.


I think this is a massive grey area as well. As I mentioned earlier, the other issue is how do you even know the parts are what they say they are? If the person selling it bought it used themselves, they might not even know what they are selling. There are all kinds of issues with partscasters on the used market.


----------



## allthumbs56

GuitarsCanada said:


> I have to get back inside it soon. I wired something up wrong and it is not working. So when I open it back up I will get into that cavity and clear out some wood and see what we have there. I will bring it up to the Hard Rock and you can check it out. If you have ever had a bottle of Pepto Bismol, thats exactly the colour of this guitar.


Real Pepto Bismal ......................... or the no-name stuff?


----------



## Milkman

J-75 said:


> I'm always seeing "Fender" Stratocasters/Partscasters on CL & Kijiji that can be considered extremely misleading to the uninitiated.
> 
> I replied to one recently, challenging his misuse of the Fender name. I got an aggressive response, justifying the use of the name "Fender" in the ad title, as well as on the instrument: because the neck was made by a "Fender-licensed" company.
> All the rest of it was assembled with assorted aftermarket parts. This instrument _has never been inside a Fender factory_, _nor has any part of it ever been handled by a Fender employee_, yet the owner insists on referring to it as a "Fender" - that's just not right.
> Build quality? - chances are good that it was assembled and set up by some amateur, perhaps as his first project.


A guitar with a neck made by a Fender licensed company is a far cry from an actual Fender Strat.


That's like putting a Rolex wristband on a Timex.


----------



## Guest

Guitar101 said:


> Fret count. Do Gibson’s & Fender’s have 22 and Chinese counterfeit have 21. That would be too easy but who knows.
> 
> Please don’t comment on this post. Let just get down to the business at hand...


Sorry, just have to comment. After all .. you asked (and you want to know). 
The original confusion re; 21/22 fret versions, related to the (non)overhang of the fretboard. 
Nothing at all regarding legit/fake. It also brought to attention the lack of a truss rod (by
studying the pic .. no truss nut). It took me a long (and expensive) time (in my life)to finally 
take advantage of the wisdom of others. IMO (and others) this experiment does just that.


----------



## greco

allthumbs56 said:


> Real Pepto Bismal ......................... or the no-name stuff?


This could go on forever !...now I'm no longer 100% sure that this is the REAL GuitarsCanada forum.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## tubetwang

greco said:


> This could go on forever !...now I'm no longer 100% sure that this is the REAL GuitarsCanada forum.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave



Right!

A gentleman orders a 158$ Chinese Strat copy from TradeTang (of all place).

The 158$ include EMS shipping, wich is equivalent to Canada Post's fastest, best ad most expansive service...shipping that same guitar back will cost you 200$!

Dude who purchase a guitar from a Chinese reseller will usually do their homework...i.e. ask around, read about and/or at the very least go with the best Asian ebayish organisation (DhGate).

Then if you do not have a tip from an experience friend...you would go with a reseller who sold a lot of Guitar and who has the best feedback. You would read them feedback and from there you would take your chances...

You would also write on your order..."the guitar has to be exactly like the one being shipped"...you may not get it, but, at the very least you will get a 120$ DHGate refund after you excalate with them. Refuse the seller 20$ proposal and escalate to 120$...make him wait...his total guitar order is not getting paid by DhGate as long as it is not settle by YOU!

The seller's usual response is...¨no, no, no...this is the Chinese version¨. The fucker had put a picture lifted on Ebay and sold you a dud!

The biggest name in the guitar business have been swindled in Asia...DO NOT BUY FROM ASIAN COUNTRY IF YOU HAVE NO EXPERIENCE THERE...Few exception is South Korea and Japan.

That being said, if you know your way, the best buy is in China.

When the Moral Majority steps in...the discussion ends...but, if guitar is the mood, there's lot to be learned!

Befo-i-go...about the reselling to newbi caper...here's an easy tip!

This tip will work even if your blind.

Works on any un-bound guitars.

Pass your hand on the fret ends...

By the way...most newbie buy from store.

Tourlou!


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Sounds like you have a lot of experience with them


----------



## Robert1950

When buying from TradeTang, remember what this guy was suppossed to have said...

View attachment 669


----------



## greco

greco said:


> This could go on forever !...now I'm no longer 100% sure that this is the REAL GuitarsCanada forum.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


*tubetwang*...this was meant to be a joke. You seem to have taken much more seriously than I intended.

Sorry about my sometimes unusual/warped sense of humour.

*No offense was intended towards GuitarsCanada.*

Mods.....Please feel free to delete my posts if you think some members might interpret them as being offensive in any way.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## GuitarsCanada

greco said:


> *tubetwang*...this was meant to be a joke. You seem to have taken much more seriously than I intended.
> 
> Sorry about my sometimes unusual/warped sense of humour.
> 
> *No offense was intended towards GuitarsCanada.*
> 
> Mods.....Please feel free to delete my posts if you think some members might interpret them as being offensive in any way.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


I took it as intended.


----------



## JHarasym

greco said:


> This could go on forever !...now I'm no longer 100% sure that this is the REAL GuitarsCanada forum.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


How can we be sure you are the genuine "Dave"? 

If that's even your real name.


----------



## greco

JHarasym said:


> How can we be sure you are the genuine "Dave"?
> 
> If that's even your real name.


You can't !!

Cheers

Frank


----------



## keeperofthegood

greco said:


> You can't !!
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Frank


ZOMG I was eating when I read that HAHA almost needed the heimlich maneuver HAHAHAHA


----------



## tubetwang

Hey Dave, i'm on your side man...we think alike... and, i too, am always in a humour mode...under a serious blanket.

I will not discuss moral issues or politics here...talking guitar i like but...



greco said:


> *tubetwang*...this was meant to be a joke. You seem to have taken much more seriously than I intended.
> 
> Sorry about my sometimes unusual/warped sense of humour.
> 
> *No offense was intended towards GuitarsCanada.*
> 
> Mods.....Please feel free to delete my posts if you think some members might interpret them as being offensive in any way.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


----------



## starjag

... and you tell me that you are _not_ discussing morals here! You're funny!



tubetwang said:


> Right!
> 
> A gentleman orders a 158$ Chinese Strat copy from TradeTang (of all place).
> 
> The 158$ include EMS shipping, wich is equivalent to Canada Post's fastest, best ad most expansive service...shipping that same guitar back will cost you 200$!
> 
> Dude who purchase a guitar from a Chinese reseller will usually do their homework...i.e. ask around, read about and/or at the very least go with the best Asian ebayish organisation (DhGate).
> 
> Then if you do not have a tip from an experience friend...you would go with a reseller who sold a lot of Guitar and who has the best feedback. You would read them feedback and from there you would take your chances...
> 
> You would also write on your order..."the guitar has to be exactly like the one being shipped"...you may not get it, but, at the very least you will get a 120$ DHGate refund after you excalate with them. Refuse the seller 20$ proposal and escalate to 120$...make him wait...his total guitar order is not getting paid by DhGate as long as it is not settle by YOU!
> 
> The seller's usual response is...¨no, no, no...this is the Chinese version¨. The fucker had put a picture lifted on Ebay and sold you a dud!
> 
> The biggest name in the guitar business have been swindled in Asia...DO NOT BUY FROM ASIAN COUNTRY IF YOU HAVE NO EXPERIENCE THERE...Few exception is South Korea and Japan.
> 
> That being said, if you know your way, the best buy is in China.
> 
> When the Moral Majority steps in...the discussion ends...but, if guitar is the mood, there's lot to be learned!
> 
> Befo-i-go...about the reselling to newbi caper...here's an easy tip!
> 
> This tip will work even if your blind.
> 
> Works on any un-bound guitars.
> 
> Pass your hand on the fret ends...
> 
> By the way...most newbie buy from store.
> 
> Tourlou!


----------



## rollingdam

25 pages and still going-I suggest our fearless leader give this guitar away in a contest-one post per participant in 100 words stating positive reasons why they should win it and what they will do with it when they win.

Oh and one has to be or become a supporting member to enter. I am sure this will defray the cost of the guitar by getting more supporting members and will prevent the ignorant who have been dissing the guitar and the Chinese from entering,


----------



## tubetwang

rollingdam said:


> 25 pages and still going-I suggest our fearless leader give this guitar away in a contest-one post per participant in 100 words stating positive reasons why they should win it and what they will do with it when they win.
> 
> Oh and one has to be or become a supporting member to enter. I am sure this will defray the cost of the guitar by getting more supporting members and will prevent the ignorant who have been dissing the guitar and the Chinese from entering,


Now...there is a constructive positive and different reply!

Rollingdam...You Sir...are my kind of human being!!!


----------



## torndownunit

Here's a potential example of the worst case scenario:

http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/bra/msg/2853645525.html



> I have a Gibson Les Paul COPY guitar for sale. It comes with a Yorkville molded case. The guitar is in 9.5% condition. It plays awesome, feels awesome and sounds HUGE. I personally made it a project and put two gibson pickups in it as well as all gibson hardware/electronics. The bridge pickup is a 498T & the neck pickup is a 490R. The volume pots are up graded to a hotter 500k set and the tone pots are taken out of the circuit to give even more bite, but left in for cosmetic appeal. Im posting it for $800 because i know how much i paid for the guitar and how much i put into the guitar but, i am letting it go at best offer. Thanks for looking, feel free to txt or call me to answer any questions.


In case the ad vanishes, it's a goldtop LP with the Gibson logo on it. He has it listed as a "Copy" but it's a counterfeit, not a copy. If it has the Gibson logo/markings on it and it's not a Gibson it's a counterfeit. No mention of where it came from either, and I'd venture to guess it's from on the site sites we are discussing.

That one also makes me question the seller's other ad here: http://toronto.en.craigslist.ca/bra/msg/2853678911.html . (A) because he has another counterfeit guitar posted, and (B) who the hell would do something like this to a real SG lol.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Makes you wonder where we are going to be in a few years with all of these floating around


----------



## torndownunit

GuitarsCanada said:


> Makes you wonder where we are going to be in a few years with all of these floating around


I would never consider buying a used Gibson from anywhere but a trusted source. I wouldn't even considering buying one off Kijiji or CL. I think a lot of people that buy higher end guitars at the same way. It could lead to unfortunate effects for uneducated buyers though.


----------



## Guest

Here's another questionable one. He does give full disclosure though. he's asking $450.
http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-musical-instruments-guitars-MIM-Strat-W0QQAdIdZ355325119

This is a rare pink MIM Strat. The neck may or may not be the original - I suspect that it is not because it is a one-piece, 
flat-sawn maple neck with a quarter-sawn maple cap and there is no serial # that I could find.
The guitar has been completely shielded to minimize noise and has been set up so that it has the right amount of neck bow 
with the action set so that you can dig in for bending. Intonation has also been set and is nearly perfect - which is unusual for a MIM guitar.
It does not have noiseless pickups. The person I bought it from told me that it did but he lied. Beware of guitarplayer2323 @ yahoo.com
It has a great "quack" in positions 2 and 4 as well as good solid tones in 1, 3 and 5.
If you're looking at a guitar to buy as a present for someone, this one is setup great and ready to go.

PS - does NOT include the case in the picture.


----------



## JHarasym

torndownunit said:


> The guitar is in 9.5% condition


Personally I try to stay away from guitars that are not in AT LEAST 11.5% condition.


----------



## tubetwang

this strat is a Chinese copy...


----------



## shoretyus

GuitarsCanada said:


> Makes you wonder where we are going to be in a few years with all of these floating around


Out of Mahogany, too many crappy guitars floating around ... and not enough Gibsons for those who want one that comes with a warranty. 

Too bad the 100 mile diet doesn't include guitar..


----------



## torndownunit

tubetwang said:


> I see your point...but to me a copy and a counterfeit are the same shit...wether "Branding" you brand on it...
> 
> Beside, every guitar is different and has it's own personnality.
> 
> I disagree on the resale value thingy but...a Gibson "Counterfeit" that plays as well... and sound as well... and is set up as well as a Gibson (Gibson) will find a buyer at 600$...and that you can be sure of.


Not when it's clearly a *counterfeit* Gibson though. I agree, a good *copy* is worth it. But most people don't want a blatantly counterfeit guitar. And if they do, they are looking to get one at the rates they can import them from those Chinese sites. 

You seem to be missing a huge point of this thread which is that most people take issue to counterfeit guitars. They don't have a problem owning a guitar that is 'like' another guitar. They have a problem with one that is a counterfeit and illegally uses another companies brand name. You write that off as some small issue in all of this lol. It's the KEY issue in all of this. 

Your issue of 'each guitar being it's own thing' is not really relevant to this thread. It's the legality that is. No one would have any issues with these guitars whatsoever if they didn't steal another companies branding and attempt to pass them off as the real thing.


----------



## cheezyridr

of everyone on this board, i may be the biggest cheapskate when it comes to gear. i don't really care what the headstock says if the instrument is up to my personal standards, and is in a price range i feel is acceptable. however, the guy who pays $600 for any counterfeit guitar is a fool soon parted with his money.


----------



## torndownunit

cheezyridr said:


> of everyone on this board, i may be the biggest cheapskate when it comes to gear. i don't really care what the headstock says if the instrument is up to my personal standards, and is in a price range i feel is acceptable. however, the guy who pays $600 for any counterfeit guitar is a fool soon parted with his money.


I don't care about brands etc. But I won't knowingly pay $600 for a guitar is a a counterfeit guitar of unknown origins for the very reason you pointed out lol. The name on the headstock only matters to me when it's a forgery.


----------



## tubetwang

You are right but sadly...you are swimming against a tidal wave...and are not looking at the big picture.

They make them as good for way cheaper and there's is more of them...(read = less affluent in another parts of the world i.e. Asia, Africa, South America) customers...

Do you really think that a guy in Africa making 400$ a month will pop 3600$ for a Gibson (Gibson)?
Believe me...in MOST part of the world they don't cork sniff much...i travelled on 5 continents and seen the human condition...

They vote with their wallets...

A guitar is a luxury item, meant to play music, and, most would-be-guitar-player-will-try-to-pay-less-for-more...that is just the way it is...right or wrong...

I think that the Craiglist dude should sell them for what he paid for and be done with it...that is what i would do...but he probably feels that he can get more for it...and he is probably right...

Forget about the glossy magazine ads and your rock star endorsee...in a recession folks go were they cannot lose...

My old man was driving American cars in the 50's and 60's...

In 1972, he came home with a brand new Datsun 510...every neighbour were laughing their ass of...a year later he got a new BMW and mom got the Datsun...

It's the Dragon man...it's the Dragon!


----------



## Hammertone

Copy...counterfeit....forgery....hmmmm. Where do the Derrig / Max / Keebler / Guitar Clinic / Monty / Bob / etc. guitars that were branded as Gibsons fit into this ethical and legal framework? I know that many of them were specifically marked inside, that many of them have intentionally incorrect features, that the intention of the builders was not to deceive the original buyers, that what they have done actually enhances the value of the Gibson brand, but that is not the point. The point is that they were guilty of trademark infringement, and Gibson did send cease and desist letters to them when they appeared above the radar. 

But these guys are a shot glass of high-end homegrown legerdemain in a tsunami of craptastic Furutama, and they all live in a continent that recognizes the legal rights of trademark, copyright and patent holders. Yes, less educated consumers will be fooled, for now, and that sucks, and it's illegal, and the authorities in China do not care. Will the quality of some of these forgeries get good enough to fool a more savvy consumer? Not a rebadged Edwards cooked up by a local entrepreneurial crook, but out-of-the-box Chinese goods? Has anyone seen such a thing yet?


----------



## torndownunit

tubetwang said:


> You are right but sadly...you are swimming against a tidal wave...and are not looking at the big picture.
> 
> They make them as good for way cheaper and there's is more of them...(read = less affluent in another parts of the world i.e. Asia, Africa, South America) customers...
> 
> Do you really think that a guy in Africa making 400$ a month will pop 3600$ for a Gibson (Gibson)?
> Believe me...in MOST part of the world they don't cork sniff much...i travelled on 5 continents and seen the human condition...
> 
> They vote with their wallets...
> 
> A guitar is a luxury item, meant to play music, and, most would-be-guitar-player-will-try-to-pay-less-for-more...that is just the way it is...right or wrong...
> 
> I think that the Craiglist dude should sell them for what he paid for and be done with it...that is what i would do...but he probably feels that he can get more for it...and he is probably right...
> 
> Forget about the glossy magazine ads and your rock star endorsee...in a recession folks go were they cannot lose...
> 
> My old man was driving American cars in the 50's and 60's...
> 
> In 1972, he came home with a brand new Datsun 510...every neighbour were laughing their ass of...a year later he got a new BMW and mom got the Datsun...
> 
> It's the Dragon man...it's the Dragon!


But there is a huge point you are missing. If these guitars are good guitars, they don't need to illegally use another companies branding. That is the ONLY issue going on here and the one you continually gloss over. A good $600 guitar will sell for that price on it's own merits. There doesn't need to be any lying about it's brand name and country of origin (they are stamped Made in USA on the headstock).

I own some great Chinese made guitars. It's not a knock on the country or their manufacturing. It's solely a knock on blatantly using another companies branding illegally.


----------



## tubetwang

Hammertone said:


> Copy...counterfeit....forgery....hmmmm. Where do the Derrig / Max / Keebler / Guitar Clinic / Monty / Bob / etc. guitars that were branded as Gibsons fit into this ethical and legal framework? I know that many of them were specifically marked inside, that many of them have intentionally incorrect features, that the intention of the builders was not to deceive the original buyers, that what they have done actually enhances the value of the Gibson brand, but that is not the point. The point is that they were guilty of trademark infringement, and Gibson did send cease and desist letters to them when they appeared above the radar.
> 
> But these guys are a shot glass of high-end homegrown legerdemain in a tsunami of craptastic Furutama, and they all live in a continent that recognizes the legal rights of trademark, copyright and patent holders. Yes, less educated consumers will be fooled, for now, and that sucks, and it's illegal, and the authorities in China do not care. Will the quality of some of these forgeries get good enough to fool a more savvy consumer? Not a rebadged Edwards cooked up by a local entrepreneurial crook, but out-of-the-box Chinese goods? Has anyone seen such a thing yet?


Shure...but not on Chinese web sites you will...You have to travel there to find the right jeweller...you are looking at serious dineiros, cuz travelling to China is costly...

Best to order a custom job from one of our members list...a man like Jean Godbout can put together your dream guitar...


----------



## tubetwang

torndownunit said:


> But there is a huge point you are missing. If these guitars are good guitars, they don't need to illegally use another companies branding. That is the ONLY issue going on here and the one you continually gloss over. A good $600 guitar will sell for that price on it's own merits. There doesn't need to be any lying about it's brand name and country of origin (they are stamped Made in USA on the headstock).
> 
> I own some great Chinese made guitars. It's not a knock on the country or their manufacturing. It's solely a knock on blatantly using another companies branding illegally.


I'm not trying to gloss over anything...i agree with you.

I'm saying that there is nothing that you can do in the actual circomstance...

It is like...like...huh...er...you know!!! it's like telling them to say no to drugs...

You can shuved it down their throat all you want Nancy!!!BUT they come back for more...

WHO WILL STOP THE BOATS??????


----------



## torndownunit

tubetwang said:


> I'm not trying to gloss over anything...i agree with you.
> 
> I'm saying that there is nothing that you can do in the actual circomstance...
> 
> It is like...like...huh...er...you know!!! it's like telling them to say no to drugs...
> 
> You can shuved it down their throat all you want Nancy!!!BUT they come back for more...
> 
> WHO WILL STOP THE BOATS??????


I agree with you that not much is being done. And it's clearly creating a a crazy grey area where people don't even know what's legal and what's not.

What I am questioning in your posts that is quite a few of them do come across like you are saying the counterfeiting itself is ok. Or at a minimum downplaying it. If you aren't meaning that, then sorry. But if you read over your posts, you can see why one would get that impression. You basically say 'keep morals out of it' but then you seem to imply that counterfeiting is not big deal. That technically IS taking a moral stance tough based on your own morals lol.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

If you are going to build something, build it with pride, build it so that you are happy to put your name on it. If you are putting someone else's name on it, then you are not proud of what you have made and you are trying to get ahead on a false pretense. There are a lot of copies of a lot of guitars and each maker had faith enough in the instrument that they put their own name on it. I would rather have a Cort or a Tokai copy than a forgery of a Gibby or Fender.


----------



## fredyfreeloader

I don't know how many of you have seen the guitars that Future Shop is selling on their website, they have a Squire by Fender same colour as the one purchased by GC it looks the same as well and it costs $119.00. If you want the Squire package, guitar and amp it will cost you $179.00. Where do you think parents are going to go for a guitar for junior when the time comes, my guess is Future Shop. Are these guitars copies or fakes are they legal or not I don't know. 
GC said early on that he hoped no major retailer would start selling these cheap units well I guess some one has started. 
I know people will make the point that the ones at Future Shop may be made in a Fender plant in China, how do we know where they came from. My point is people will buy the least expensive product they can get and most of the time they don't give a damn where it comes from. You can't change that.


----------



## hummingway

tubetwang said:


> They make them as good for way cheaper and there's is more of them...


Instead of just adding to global warming why don't you take apart one of these cheap but exceptional forgeries you own, photo, post and prove you're not just full of hot air?


----------



## Hamstrung

fredyfreeloader said:


> I don't know how many of you have seen the guitars that Future Shop is selling on their website, they have a Squire by Fender same colour as the one purchased by GC it looks the same as well and it costs $119.00. If you want the Squire package, guitar and amp it will cost you $179.00. Where do you think parents are going to go for a guitar for junior when the time comes, my guess is Future Shop. Are these guitars copies or fakes are they legal or not I don't know.
> GC said early on that he hoped no major retailer would start selling these cheap units well I guess some one has started.
> I know people will make the point that the ones at Future Shop may be made in a Fender plant in China, how do we know where they came from. My point is people will buy the least expensive product they can get and most of the time they don't give a damn where it comes from. You can't change that.


Once again the point is how it's labeled and marketed. My expectations of the Squire brand are a far cry from what I'd expect from something labeled "Fender Custom Shop!"
We all know that Squire is the bargain brand of Fender and that they're made overseas. There's no deception here regardless of the actual quality. Not to mention, Fender owns the rights to the name Squire and can market it how they wish.


----------



## tubetwang

torndownunit said:


> I agree with you that not much is being done. And it's clearly creating a a crazy grey area where people don't even know what's legal and what's not.
> 
> What I am questioning in your posts that is quite a few of them do come across like you are saying the counterfeiting itself is ok. Or at a minimum downplaying it. If you aren't meaning that, then sorry. But if you read over your posts, you can see why one would get that impression. You basically say 'keep morals out of it' but then you seem to imply that counterfeiting is not big deal. That technically IS taking a moral stance tough based on your own morals lol.


I agree with you a 100% that knock offs are'nt nice and folk should not buy them...

I'm am not endorsing the Chinese, Indonesian and Indian forgeries...

I'n MY OWN opinion and SOLE PRIVATE EXPERIENCE, i do beleive that SOME OF THEM "FORGERIES" "CLONE" "COPY" are really good guitars...the basic is there if you will...

And i'm only saying that because i have read folks on this forum write that Chisese guitars are crap...

Yes you may get fret buzz and sharp fret ends, but that is expected with any guitar that has travelled the world and cost 238 Shipped to yo-do-no-tax...Put a good set of tuners, a bone nut, work on the neck and you are ready to roll...I shave the neck and refret myself, only because i love to work on guitars and amps and have purchased all the tools over the years, but one does'nt have to go to that extreme to have a good playing axe.

It always sadden me to read guys putting 400$ of new pick-ups, changing the pots and switch...;?(

The ceramic pick-ups in them are good if you plug into a good amp...The cheap pots are the same as the ones in your stomp box and the really cheap switch will work fine in you room at night...

Whut ??? You are on a retainer with Paul McCartney and you... TOUR ? 

OK well then...You have permission to put a Lester Switch on, then!...;!) LOL


----------



## tubetwang

hummingway said:


> Instead of just adding to global warming why don't you take apart one of these cheap but exceptional forgeries you own, photo, post and prove you're not just full of hot air?


Ho! we have a pissing contest here...

OK i'll unzip first...

When rockin's the mood!

www.twangsters.blogspot.com


----------



## hummingway

tubetwang said:


> Ho! we have a pissing contest here...
> 
> OK i'll unzip first...
> 
> When rockin's the mood!
> 
> www.twangsters.blogspot.com


I'm not looking for a pissing contest but it seems that's all you have to offer so we'll have to go with the evidence here, which is that you get what you pay for.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Let's see it


----------



## Robert1950

I would buy an Epiphone ES 339


----------



## Robert1950

Take a chunk off that thing Scott. I want to see the wood (or pseudo-wood).


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Robert1950 said:


> Take a chunk off that thing Scott. I want to see the wood (or pseudo-wood).


That's what we should do. Get back into that guitar. I might get that done tomorrow some time


----------



## Robert1950

Epiphone is dropping the price of the ES339.

Sorry Dave..


----------



## greco

Robert1950 said:


> Epiphone is dropping the price of the ES339.
> 
> Sorry Dave..


To what?...I paid $425.00

Cheers

Dave


----------



## PaulS

Still lovin' my ES339


----------



## Jim DaddyO

I can't see ever buying any guitar off the internet. I have to hold it in my hands and try it before I would lay down my hard earned cash. That being said, even in my hands I could probably be easily fooled by a forgery. Maybe it is a good thing I can't afford another guitar, but if I could, I would buy from a reputable dealer in a real bricks and mortar building.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Thread has been cleaned up. Discussion about the importing, legalities, quality etc etc are good. But lets try and stay away from any political, cultural discussions. At least in this thread. That includes myself...


----------



## Hired Goon

Sorry chief. Got a little carried away with the Chinese business practice rant. Apologies.


----------



## Alex Csank

GuitarsCanada said:


> Thread has been cleaned up. Discussion about the importing, legalities, quality etc etc are good. But lets try and stay away from any political, cultural discussions. At least in this thread. That includes myself...


Thanks Scott. If I had that Strat, I think I would eventually just add another decal which says: "NOT" and just add it over the word Fender.


----------



## Guitar101

Alex Csank said:


> Thanks Scott. If I had that Strat, I think I would eventually just add another decal which says: "NOT" and just add it over the word Fender.


 Letter Stamp Set

Here's another option. Stamp "copy" or "china copy" on the back of the headstock and in the pickup cavities. You could still fool your friends but the guitar would never be able to be sold as legit.


----------



## keeperofthegood

And give it to the local school or stage arts for a prop. Like candy glass there is always a use for a fake.


----------



## Robert1950

greco said:


> To what?...I paid $425.00 Cheers Dave


 I'm not sure if this applies to Canada or not,.... 

http://www.epiphone.com/News/Featur...Announces-Price-Reduction-on-Top-Sellers.aspx


----------



## MusicShopperCA

Very interesting thread. I'll chime in with my own experience with these kinds of deals. I bought a guitar off of AliExpress.com, which is basically the exact same kind of idea. The guitar I purchased was basically a "Fender" Richie Sambora sig strat, or an American Deluxe with star inlays. As with this test, I bought it purely to see what kind of quality the money would get you, and maybe to hang it up for display. I believe my total cost was around $280 Canadian but I may be off on that.

The guitar in the photo on the sales page _looked_ incredible, like a near perfect copy of the Sambora strat, with some notable difference like a clearly no-name licensed Floyd. This told me that their sales page shots weren't just stolen pics of the real thing (as many sellers use), which made me curious. Could the guitar they sent me really look that good? I made a point to continually (literally over and over again) tell the seller that if the guitar wasn't exactly like the one pictured, that I'd be returning it, would expect them to cover the return costs, and would dispute it with AliExpress

The guitar came _very_ quickly, so kudos to the seller on that part I guess. Like with this one, it was shipped EMS. That's where the positives ended. First of all, the guitar was far from exactly as pictured. The stars looked like crap, and didn't have the dark outline that the ones in the picture (and the real thing) had. The "Fender" logo was about a mile out of place, and the decal near the end said "Original Couture Body". These aren't such big deals as I never intended to sell the guitar as a Fender, so it's almost better off, but it shows the lack of attention to detail in the manufacturing. Other than that, lookswise it was ok, but just ok.

Now to the important parts, the functionality. The neck heel did _not_ have the comfort heel carve like it should have and was pictured on the sales page. Two of the saddle screws on the no-name Floyd grinded bad and could barely be turned. The neck was bowed significantly, but the truss rod worked, so that was fixable. The best part of all though was that the guitar could not be tuned. Literally. The locking nut shelf had been improperly cut, and when you screwed down the bolts for the string clamps, they'd actually hit the nut shelf before they were fully tightened, so that when they _were_ fully tightened, the locking nut would actually _lift up_ off of the shelf partially. This of course a) immediately put the guitar out of tune and b) put the action on the treble side about a mile high.

So you could unlock the nut, tune the guitar up (which in itself was difficult because of how shoddy the tuners were), but then as soon as you locked the nut down again, it'd life and the guitar would immediately be unplayable. 

Needless to say I disputed the sale, provided them with photos of everything I claimed, as well as a video on YouTube showing where the problems were. Despite this _overwhelming_ evidence to show that the seller had not lived up to their end of the agreement in any way (except I suppose shipping time), and the fact that the seller was entirely uncooperative and refused to post anything but copied and pasted responses, it still took weeks for AliExpress to come to a decision, and when they did, their arbitrator only awarded me back about 50% of what I paid in total, and the seller received the rest.

That guitar now lives with my 9 year old nephew who asked if he could have it when I told him it was a piece of junk. I'm not saying that every guitar that comes off of these kinds of sites is going to be like that, but just always remember that if you're buying one of these things, you _are_ buying a counterfeit (whether you want to call it a copy, or a replica or whatever), meaning that you have absolutely no protection of any kind, from anyone but the site you're dealing with, and their customer service is hit or miss at best. If you decide to buy one of these guitars, treat it like a night out at the casino, and only spend as much as you can afford to lose, because you very well might lose it and end up with a piece of firewood.


----------



## zontar

> Would you buy a guitar from the online Chinese dealers?


Under normal circumstances, I wouldn't buy a guitar from any online retailer.

But there are exceptions, and I have enjoyed this thread.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

OK, sorry guys. Been redoing kitchen , halls etc upstairs and have not been on a lot last few days. Took a break and seen that this one has gotten out of control again. Cleaned it up and will leave it open for now if everyone wants to continue in the spirit it was originally intended. Goodbye Twang. Time to head back to HC or wherever you came from. You were warned.


----------



## fredyfreeloader

GuitarsCanada said:


> OK, sorry guys. Been redoing kitchen , halls etc upstairs and have not been on a lot last few days. Took a break and seen that this one has gotten out of control again. Cleaned it up and will leave it open for now if everyone wants to continue in the spirit it was originally intended. Goodbye Twang. Time to head back to HC or wherever you came from. You were warned.


Thank you Scott it was time for this to stop


----------



## starjag

fredyfreeloader said:


> Thank you Scott it was time for this to stop


+1

Thanks!


----------



## starjag

I am curious to know which branded guitars are produced in the factory that produced this guitar. Probably impossible to know. But it would be interesting to compare the quality of the branded vs. the quality of the unbranded (potentially counterfeit).


----------



## J S Moore

starjag said:


> I am curious to know which branded guitars are produced in the factory that produced this guitar. Probably impossible to know. But it would be interesting to compare the quality of the branded vs. the quality of the unbranded (potentially counterfeit).


I would say you're looking at a pretty minimal setup to produce these things. These are not factory made guitars, these are hack jobs done by people looking to pry a few dollars out of someone else's hand. Probably outfitted with "borrowed" parts to keep costs down. Why would a factory bother to do something like this when they can produce guitars that people will happily pay $400 to $500 for? It makes no economic sense at all and the Chinese are anything but stupid.


----------



## greco

fredyfreeloader said:


> Thank you Scott it was time for this to stop


An additional thanks, Scott.

Also, I offer my apology for breaking GC forum rules. 
However, I did indicate that my rule-breaking post could be deleted (which it was).

Cheers

Dave


----------



## bagpipe

The one giveaway that I did notice from Scotts original pics was that the pickguard shape was wrong on the lower horn - the pickguard shape seemed not to be an exact match for the horn. From looking at the pics that Laristotle posted of his, the pickguard seemed to look correct on the lower horn. Just trying to figure some things to look for when trying to spot these fakes.


----------



## torndownunit

I can't see in the photos, but does the writing on the pickups look correct?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

torndownunit said:


> I can't see in the photos, but does the writing on the pickups look correct?


The writing does, but as pointed out here by someone the pickups do not have staggered poles, they are flat


----------



## starjag

J S Moore said:


> I would say you're looking at a pretty minimal setup to produce these things. These are not factory made guitars, these are hack jobs done by people looking to pry a few dollars out of someone else's hand. Probably outfitted with "borrowed" parts to keep costs down. Why would a factory bother to do something like this when they can produce guitars that people will happily pay $400 to $500 for? It makes no economic sense at all and the Chinese are anything but stupid.


I remember reading somewhere that some of these factories do produce branded and unbranded products in order to use all their available capacity, which actually makes sense from a productivity perspective since the variable cost is low but the fixed cost of having a plant dormant (even for a single shift) is high. The unbranded 3rd shift could be using parts rejected by the branded 1st and 2nd shifts. Just curiosity.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Besides Gibson and Fender, what other brands are being forged, and is it limited to electric guitars?

I really like the idea of having each item that tells you it is a forgery pointed out with photos and descriptions. Thank you for the valuable service.


----------



## smorgdonkey

GuitarsCanada said:


> Goodbye Twang. Time to head back to HC or wherever you came from. You were warned.


Bravo.

I'm all for giving people chances and all too but only if they are not morons.




starjag said:


> I remember reading somewhere that some of these factories do produce branded and unbranded products in order to use all their available capacity, which actually makes sense from a productivity perspective since the variable cost is low but the fixed cost of having a plant dormant (even for a single shift) is high. The unbranded 3rd shift could be using parts rejected by the branded 1st and 2nd shifts. Just curiosity.


That is true (the philosophy). I have many years of manufacturing experience and machines do not make money while not running. If it isn't preventative maintenance then the machine should be running.


----------



## fredyfreeloader

I seem to remember an article about the Chinese Govt. shutting down a plant producing Gibson guitars, not because the plant per say was doing something wrong but because some employees where going back after the plant was closed and making instruments and allegedly selling them. I think I saw it on another thread here a couple of months back. I'm not really sure where I saw it, sometimes I just see things.


----------



## torndownunit

Jim DaddyO said:


> Besides Gibson and Fender, *what other brands are being forged, and is it limited to electric guitars*?
> 
> I really like the idea of having each item that tells you it is a forgery pointed out with photos and descriptions. Thank you for the valuable service.


I have seen forgeries of pretty much every major guitar brand. Gretsch, Ric, Ibanez. As far as I know, TradeTang is a site that only really deals in counterfeit goods of all kinds.


----------



## J S Moore

fredyfreeloader said:


> I seem to remember an article about the Chinese Govt. shutting down a plant producing Gibson guitars, not because the plant per say was doing something wrong but because some employees where going back after the plant was closed and making instruments and allegedly selling them. I think I saw it on another thread here a couple of months back. I'm not really sure where I saw it, sometimes I just see things.


Gibson owns it's plant in China and produces Epiphone guitars there. The only place that Gibson guitars are legitimately produced is in the US.



> I remember reading somewhere that some of these factories do produce branded and unbranded products in order to use all their available capacity, which actually makes sense from a productivity perspective since the variable cost is low but the fixed cost of having a plant dormant (even for a single shift) is high. The unbranded 3rd shift could be using parts rejected by the branded 1st and 2nd shifts. Just curiosity.


While that makes a certain kind of sense on the surface, look at the quality of that guitar. I don't believe for a second that any serious manufacturer would build anything like that to use up capacity unless that's the best they could build. And if that's the best they can do they aren't building guitars for anything other than counterfeiting.


----------



## starjag

J S Moore said:


> While that makes a certain kind of sense on the surface, look at the quality of that guitar. I don't believe for a second that any serious manufacturer would build anything like that to use up capacity unless that's the best they could build. And if that's the best they can do they aren't building guitars for anything other than counterfeiting.


No, the manufacturer would not use it like that. If Gibson owns the resources then they have full control. I think my assumption relates to cases where the manufacturer leases the resources. And the plant managers have a special crew that takes care of business after hours. I will try to find this article -- it was in a business-related publication.


----------



## shoretyus

Thanks Scott... as a forum we are a very patient bunch.... but there is a time when the bowl gets full and the chain needs a pull.


----------



## hardasmum

shoretyus said:


> Thanks Scott... as a forum we are a very patient bunch.... but there is a time when the bowl gets full and the chain needs a pull.


Very interesting analogy.


----------



## Rumble_b

Well I must say that this thread has done two things for me. First it confirmed what I thought about these fakes, they are junk. And second, it has made me really want to go buy a new guitar!!!!


----------



## sulphur

Hey Scott, I actually found a use for the guitar!


----------



## GuitarsCanada

sulphur said:


> Hey Scott, I actually found a use for the guitar!



Thats perfect


----------



## HarpBoy

sulphur said:


> Really good thread Scott, thanks for the effort.
> 
> I ordered one of these from tradetang...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kkjuw


Rascal. 

Well played,


----------



## Bubb

I'm disappointed to find out there are at least 8 people I don't want to buy anything from here .


----------



## Milkman

Bubb said:


> I'm disappointed to find out there are at least 8 people I don't want to buy anything from here .


Really?

Which 8?


----------



## noman

That guitar body is the exact colour of my 2008 Squier Bullet. Also made in China and the necks are actually really nice (if you like chunky necks). But the colour is definitely not shell-pink as they claimed when I bought it. But no complaints since it came to a whopping $85 brand-new, plus $20 for shipping. Still have that body sitting around somewhere and the neck is on a real shell-pink MIJ Stratocaster........


----------



## GuitarsCanada

I am still debating on what to do with this one. Burn it or maybe use it as a wall decoration of some kind


----------



## keeperofthegood

Fake or crap either way it would be sad to outright destroy it but passing the hat via Canada Post is probably out :/

Kinda feels like buying a pound of butter and then throwing it out because its unhealthy ya know, you got it in hand it can be good for SOMEthing.


----------



## bobb

GuitarsCanada said:


> I am still debating on what to do with this one. Burn it or maybe use it as a wall decoration of some kind


Could do your best Pete Townsend imitation at the next jam you go to.


----------



## Robert1950

IF it's made of wood,....

[video=youtube;yp_l5ntikaU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yp_l5ntikaU[/video]


----------



## bagpipe

Bubb said:


> I'm disappointed to find out there are at least 8 people I don't want to buy anything from here .





Milkman said:


> Really?
> 
> Which 8?


Yeah, I didn't understand that remark either.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

bagpipe said:


> Yeah, I didn't understand that remark either.


I believe he is referring to whomever voted `yes`to buying a chinese guitar


----------



## keeperofthegood

GuitarsCanada said:


> I believe he is referring to whomever voted `yes`to buying a chinese guitar


At the historic moment when that comment was left there were 8 votes saying yes to buying fakes. Now there. Are more. The intimation I read into is is that members happy to purchase fakes are not to be viewed as trustable people to buy/sell with.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

keeperofthegood said:


> At the historic moment when that comment was left there were 8 votes saying yes to buying fakes. Now there. Are more. The intimation I read into is is that members happy to purchase fakes are not to be viewed as trustable people to buy/sell with.


I would concur, with the thinking, maybe not to the validity of it


----------



## keeperofthegood

GuitarsCanada said:


> I would concur, with the thinking, maybe not to the validity of it


Yes. It is a tough call I think. As I said in an earlier posting, sometimes a cheap 100 guitar is just the thing needed for something like a High School performance. No need to get a "real" Fender, just a prop and as a prop a fake is probably what I would do. So, I can see moments where "real" just does not matter against "looks real enough and dirt cheap" does. But does that mean my character as a person is less because I don't mind some kids dropping a 100 knock-off off a 5 foot tall stage rather than a 600 dollar real? I am undecided in that matter.

For me though, I simply don't or can't care where things are made the way some people care. Commerce is global, once you get down to the brass tax on things many parts can easily be made in many different countries and the end finished deal is "assembled in" and not "fully made in". It does depend on what the item is. My daughters new violin is Made in China, I got it for 250 plus taxes (financed of course cant afford it at one go) from Long and McQuade.


----------



## Guest

GuitarsCanada said:


> I am still debating on what to do with this one. Burn it or maybe use it as a wall decoration of some kind


Periodically, there's church/charity ads in kijiji looking for guitar donations 
for youth groups. Is it playable? Felt like a guitar when I held it at the 
Hard Rock. Just brand 'fake' on the back of the headstock first.


----------



## Bubb

Lemme explain my point of view.



keeperofthegood said:


> At the historic moment when that comment was left there were 8 votes saying yes to buying fakes. Now there. Are more. The intimation I read into is is that members happy to purchase fakes are not to be viewed as trustable people to buy/sell with.


Yes,basically.
These guitars are built to make money based on deception.They are trying to fool somebody .Why buy it if not to deceive ?
Once it is in this country there will always be a chance it could be sold as the real thing .
Label it as made in China and the problem disappears,put Made in USA on it and the temptation for some will always be there.
NOT necessarily the original buyer.




GuitarsCanada said:


> I would concur, with the thinking, maybe not to the validity of it


Valid maybe not,but at the same time maybe so.
Not everyone who would buy one is dishonest to be sure,but I don't see many other points in buying outright counterfeits .



keeperofthegood said:


> Yes. It is a tough call I think. As I said in an earlier posting, sometimes a cheap 100 guitar is just the thing needed for something like a High School performance. No need to get a "real" Fender, just a prop and as a prop a fake is probably what I would do. So, I can see moments where "real" just does not matter against "looks real enough and dirt cheap" does. But does that mean my character as a person is less because I don't mind some kids dropping a 100 knock-off off a 5 foot tall stage rather than a 600 dollar real? I am undecided in that matter.
> 
> For me though, I simply don't or can't care where things are made the way some people care. Commerce is global, once you get down to the brass tax on things many parts can easily be made in many different countries and the end finished deal is "assembled in" and not "fully made in". It does depend on what the item is. My daughters new violin is Made in China, I got it for 250 plus taxes (financed of course cant afford it at one go) from Long and McQuade.


As far as props for stage use etc..although I concede that is a plausible reason to buy,pretty much any cheap pawnshop guitar would do the trick just the same wouldn't it?
Not many people would be able to tell(or care)what kind of guitar they saw little Johnny throw of the stage.

I have no problem at all with any country of manufacture,this isn't about point of origin,its about counterfeiting.

Integrity means a lot to me,maybe others not so much .

If you aren't trying to deceive,label it as "made in wherever" .


----------



## hardasmum

Bubb said:


> Lemme explain my point of view.
> 
> 
> 
> keeperofthegood said:
> 
> 
> 
> At the historic moment when that comment was left there were 8 votes saying yes to buying fakes. Now there. Are more. The intimation I read into is is that members happy to purchase fakes are not to be viewed as trustable people to buy/sell with.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes,basically.
> These guitars are built to make money based on deception.They are trying to fool somebody .Why buy it if not to deceive ?
> Once it is in this country there will always be a chance it could be sold as the real thing .
> Label it as made in China and the problem disappears,put Made in USA on it and the temptation for some will always be there.
> NOT necessarily the original buyer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GuitarsCanada said:
> 
> 
> 
> I would concur, with the thinking, maybe not to the validity of it
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Valid maybe not,but at the same time maybe so.
> Not everyone who would buy one is dishonest to be sure,but I don't see many other points in buying outright counterfeits .
> 
> 
> 
> keeperofthegood said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. It is a tough call I think. As I said in an earlier posting, sometimes a cheap 100 guitar is just the thing needed for something like a High School performance. No need to get a "real" Fender, just a prop and as a prop a fake is probably what I would do. So, I can see moments where "real" just does not matter against "looks real enough and dirt cheap" does. But does that mean my character as a person is less because I don't mind some kids dropping a 100 knock-off off a 5 foot tall stage rather than a 600 dollar real? I am undecided in that matter.
> 
> For me though, I simply don't or can't care where things are made the way some people care. Commerce is global, once you get down to the brass tax on things many parts can easily be made in many different countries and the end finished deal is "assembled in" and not "fully made in". It does depend on what the item is. My daughters new violin is Made in China, I got it for 250 plus taxes (financed of course cant afford it at one go) from Long and McQuade.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> As far as props for stage use etc..although I concede that is a plausible reason to buy,pretty much any cheap pawnshop guitar would do the trick just the same wouldn't it?
> Not many people would be able to tell(or care)what kind of guitar they saw little Johnny throw of the stage.
> 
> I have no problem at all with any country of manufacture,this isn't about point of origin,its about counterfeiting.
> 
> Integrity means a lot to me,maybe others not so much .
> 
> If you aren't trying to deceive,label it as "made in wherever" .
Click to expand...

Well said. Agreed.


----------



## rollingdam

GuitarsCanada said:


> I am still debating on what to do with this one. Burn it or maybe use it as a wall decoration of some kind


In an earlier post I suggested you give it away and restrict the giveaway to supporting members and have those who wish to be entered become supporting members.


----------



## keeperofthegood

hardasmum said:


> Well said. Agreed.


 I don't disagree either. Thought that last post was a good post all the way through  I look for "whats the best that can be made of this bad situation" and honestly there isn't a lot. Counterfeit products all across the planet cost many lives on a daily bases. There were counterfeit pacemakers a couple decades ago that was a real nasty situation for many. Counterfeit cell phone batteries that caught fire. Baby food that was in fact paint, and when that wasn't far enough dog and cat food too.

I have a bowl of glass fruit, I used it in still life sketches for a time. When I was younger my grandmom had a bowl of wax fruit. The wax fruit tasted awful and when she stopped laughing she showed me where it said "DO NOT EAT".


----------



## greco

laristotle said:


> Periodically, there's church/charity ads in kijiji looking for guitar donations
> for youth groups. Is it playable? Felt like a guitar when I held it at the
> Hard Rock. Just brand 'fake' on the back of the headstock first.


I fully support this suggestion from laristotle. 
Someone young and learning could enjoy this guitar and put it to good use.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## sulphur

Though I agree with Bubb, the poll is not a public one. Maybe it should have been.

I think that's what the others were getting at, you don't know who voted on what.


----------



## Robert1950




----------



## The Lullaby

so my jag tanna sig strat from china is a fake?


----------



## sulphur

The Lullaby said:


> so my jag tanna sig strat from china is a fake?


Does it say MIA? If so, yes. If not, no.

Is that so hard?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Need to do another teardown anyway. When I put it all back together I was getting no sound so obviously wired something up wrong.


----------



## hummingway

Been there, done that.


----------



## Rick31797

A great thread and you accomplished what your goal was in the first place to dissect a counterfeit fender strat, well done, and i have certainly learnt alot.And i never thought of these companies using the real deal pictures and then sending the customer there model. Maybe this was mention, but in the picture on there web site does it look like the neck truss rod adjustment is at the heal..instead of the headstock...and if you had really got a birds eye maple neck that alone would have been worth 200.00... i see they say this fender is no longer available..


----------



## justneal

if you ignore the blatant fender rip-off would it be worth the money spent, or would you better off with a squier or the like ?

also how is the neck quality, i'm bouncing around the idea of ebaying some neck that have a china origin, for a project for myself


----------



## GuitarsCanada

justneal said:


> if you ignore the blatant fender rip-off would it be worth the money spent, or would you better off with a squier or the like ?
> 
> also how is the neck quality, i'm bouncing around the idea of ebaying some neck that have a china origin, for a project for myself


In my honest opinion. Being the one that actually owns it, I would say its not worth $40 tops. The neck is total garbage


----------



## justneal

good enough, thanks man


----------



## Robert1950

Scott, have you thought of doing this...


----------



## Old_Fart

I'm late to the party, but can't resist chiming in.

I live in China most of the year. I'm a retired business professor who had researched the manufacturing industry in China, with a focus on musical instruments. Now, aside from riding motorcycles (my other "drug"), I dabble in the guitar industry (but the very top end of the market). I know many of the key players here, including the executive representatives from the big American companies.

Anyways, yes, forgeries are prevalent here. Not just guitars. Fake Rolex, LV, etc are definitely the big sellers; far, far, far more than guitars.

There are differing grades of forgeries: C, B, A, AA, AAA, and AAA+. Most of what you will find online through alibaba, or whatever, will be the very low end ("C" grade). The perfect forgeries are found elsewhere. No, I will not say where, but it isn't terribly difficult for someone to find them inside China.

How can they be perfect?

Well, here is a poorly-hidden secret. Many guitar manufacturers do have components manufactured in China. Also, many of the Korean-made, Japanese-made, etc guitars are subcontracted to Chinese factories. The American companies attempt to maintain very close production control, quality control and inventory control in the contracted factory. Often, the company will have its own expat staff on the factory floor, watching everything that is going on.

Great, in theory, but completely useless.

The problem is that the factory owner might have a brother running another factory across town. Or maybe the owner has multiple factories. Or maybe the Korean/Japanese/whatever factory owner also owns a factory in China. All of the "manufacturing secrets" are far from secret. In one case, it was discovered after a few years of operation that the "authorized" factory workers were double-shifting at a second factory across town. The first shift, at the licensed production facility (with the eyes of the expats) ... the second shift, at the cloned factory. Same workers, same tooling, same woods, same everything. This was one publicized case ... which, in China, means that there are a LOT more.

Another difficulty is that a guitar is actually very easy to copy. It is not rocket science. Lower end factories can easily slap product together without much effort.

Who buys them? Well, the Chinese, of course ... but it seems that they are only a minor consumer of the forgeries. Gibson & Fender have developed names for themselves, but the Chinese consumer is smart enough to know that most "Gibsons" and "Fenders" in the marketplace are fake. Chinese consumers buy their guitars overseas. There are some outstanding Chinese manufacturers of quality guitars (Eastman, for example), but they are NOT sold inside China. The reason - it says Made In China ... and the Chinese consumer prefers Made in the USA. Rickenbacker is trying to come into China, but it will have an uphill battle dealing with forgeries. BTW, I think Ric is the last major manufacturer that is indeed 100% USA made.

The major consumer of forged guitars are foreigners. This is the same with the Rolex, LV, Burberry, etc. products. There is a shopping mall (in Beijing) that specialized in fake products (hundreds of stalls), and convoys of packed tour buses roll in/out every day. The place is packed with tourists, and the only Chinese people you see are the vendors. It seems no one can have a vacation in China without some hardcore "forgery" shopping on the agenda. These fakes (and some of them are perfect copies) obviously make their way back into Canada, the USA, Europe, etc.

A week doesn't pass without some foreigner asking me to help them find a great fake Gibson/Fender/Gretsch. At first, I diplomatically declined. Now, I'm so damn tired of it, I am considerably less friendly.

A good friend of mine is a senior exec with Gibson, in China, on an expat posting. We purchased an A-grade Les Paul a few years ago and took it apart. Damn, neither of us could see any difference and, sadly, there were a few betterments. Price? About $400. And we probably paid too much.

I doubt things will change soon.


----------



## Clean Channel

Very insightful post. Thanks very much for taking the time to write it. I'll copy the text on to my computer for future reference...


----------



## Old_Fart

Clean Channel said:


> Very insightful post. Thanks very much for taking the time to write it. I'll copy the text on to my computer for future reference...


Thanks for the compliment.

Guitar & Bass magazine (UK) did a cover story on the Chinese fakes, back in February, 2012 (I'm guessing at the month). Anyways, John Hall (the CEO of Rickenbacker) and I were interviewed by the journalist. It is a reasonably well-written article that covers some of what is going on in the industry.

Earlier in this thread, a few people commented about Canada Customs failing at its duty to prevent the fakes from coming into Canada. Definitely true, but Customs probably needs to be pressured by complaints before acting. The major guitar manufacturers appear to be surprisingly quiet. I can only hypothesize why. But here is one silly little theory I have ...

Inside China (the land of fakes), for a person to sell their used, genuine Gibson or Fender (or Rolex, or whatever), they need to show all the verifiable documentation that the guitar was purchased through a well-known, legitimate, authorized dealer, preferably overseas, and with the documentation preferably in English (the counterfeiters still can't quite get the English part right! haha). Hence, this works in the legitimate dealers' and manufacturers' interests. Back home (Canada), if there is a notable risk that the eBay/CL guitar is a fake, I'll just go buy it from L&M. Also, by having the L&M paper trail, I should be able to prove that my guitar is genuine when it comes time to sell it. Both L&M and the manufacturers benefit from having the notable-risk-of-fakes in the Canadian marketplace. This is a common strategy the large drug companies use against generics ... "are you sure that drug is genuine? Lots of fakes in the marketplace! Buy our genuine, name-brand drugs, to be sure."

Second, China has virtually no rock & roll history. There is no Clapton on a Strat, Jimmy Page on a LP, Keith Richards on a Tele. The big-boy manufacturers learned quickly that a flood of fakes inside the domestic Chinese marketplace actually helped develop the brand-name recognition. Even as recent as the late 1990s, virtually no one in China had heard of Gibson, Fender, Marshall, etc. These unknown brand names needed to become prominent in a consumer market that was developing at a break-neck speed. And this is a huge market - mind-numbingly huge - for example, just one city (Chongqing) has the population of all of Canada.

Third, the average monthly income in China is still only about $300. It is unrealistic for Gibson to break into this massive consumer market, and develop its brand, with a LP selling for eight times the average monthly income. As a comparative illustration, would you buy a Les Paul if its MSRP was $40,000 (Canadian)? I certainly would not. The fakes, selling at about $50 (domestically, in China), allowed the name "Gibson" to be put in the hands of young, aspiring musicians. Hook them when they are young, and one day they will aspire to "own the real thing." Now, I am NOT saying that Gibson, or Fender, or any name-brand company actively got involved in the counterfeit business ... definitely not ... but there hasn't been a whole lot of big-boy resistance to the fake market's development. A bit of tokenism, but not much, from what I have seen. There are currently a lot of factories, making a lot of money, employing a lot of people, manufacturing a lot of fake products ... this will be a very tough genie to put back in the bottle.

My "theory", despite my disjointed ramblings, is that having these fakes in the marketplace has actually helped the manufacturers & dealers.

It is great that this thread highlights the risk of fakes. And the original author very correctly raises the concern that the newbie might not know that even a cheap copy is fake, and not only get ripped off, but also perhaps get turned off Fender for life. That would be sad, as Fender makes quality guitars, regardless of its name on the headstock.

PS: It is not only fake guitars that are readily available in China, but virtually everything else ... fake case candy, fake COAs, fake cases ... and, again, of varying degrees of quality. One can even order a perfect, fake COA, for about $2 ... with whatever you wish written on it. Driving licenses, marriage certificates, degrees, you name it ... it is available ... a COA is a piece of cake. And no, I will not tell you where to find them.


----------



## greco

"There are currently a lot of factories, making a lot of money, employing a lot of people, manufacturing a lot of fake products ... _*this will be a very tough genie to put back in the bottle*_."

This one made me laugh !! Great expression !

Thanks for your insight and "disjointed ramblings" ....much appreciated and very educational.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## aftermidnight

Old_Fart said:


> ...... I'm a retired business professor who had researched the manufacturing industry in China, with a focus on musical instruments ...... I doubt things will change soon.


Thank-you OF for taking the time to write your very informative posts.

Very unfortunate, but it would appear 'caveat emptor' rings louder and truer than ever ..... makes me somewhat reluctant to ever buy anything with Fender or Gibson on the headstock again ....... supporting paperwork or not.


----------



## smorgdonkey

I have still not seen a fake Gibson with the fret nibs.


----------



## bobb

smorgdonkey said:


> I have still not seen a fake Gibson with the fret nibs.


or a non-screwdriver bridge.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

I ended up mounting this on the wall over at our shop as decoration.


----------



## Steadfastly

Old_Fart said:


> There are currently a lot of factories, making a lot of money, employing a lot of people, manufacturing a lot of fake products ... this will be a very tough genie to put back in the bottle.


Very interesting post. And you are right about trying to stop it or as you aptly say "_*to put back in the bottle.*_" When someone says, we should do this or that and stop this, they don't realize the impossibility of this in today's economy.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Steadfastly said:


> Very interesting post. And you are right about trying to stop it or as you aptly say "_*to put back in the bottle.*_" When someone says, we should do this or that and stop this, they don't realize the impossibility of this in today's economy.


I would say its virtually impossible


----------



## Steadfastly

GuitarsCanada said:


> I would say its virtually impossible


And, Scott, I would say you are at least 100% correct.


----------



## J-75

There is some possibility of a future convergence of the _quality_ of the imitations with their originals. What do you think?
I mean, the "Made in Japan" evolution went from the Teisco 60's (better as wall-art than music), on to Tokai, Fender Japan, Gretsch - where quality matches or exceeds their copied counterparts. Japan adopted a zero-failure policy in their manufacturing processes which perhaps became a "cultural" philosophy.
China can do this too - problem is, they have to want to. As I understand it, they build guitars all over the country, in smaller facilities, so that makes any assurance of quality control, or _any_ consistency, nearly impossible. Currently, they seem to be more interested in slinging out cheap fakes for a quick buck than fussing over fret nibs.


----------



## cheezyridr

J-75 said:


> There is some possibility of a future convergence of the _quality_ of the imitations with their originals. What do you think?
> I mean, the "Made in Japan" evolution went from the Teisco 60's (better as wall-art than music), on to Tokai, Fender Japan, Gretsch - where quality matches or exceeds their copied counterparts. Japan adopted a zero-failure policy in their manufacturing processes which perhaps became a "cultural" philosophy.
> China can do this too - problem is, they have to want to. As I understand it, they build guitars all over the country, in smaller facilities, so that makes any assurance of quality control, or _any_ consistency, nearly impossible. Currently, they seem to be more interested in slinging out cheap fakes for a quick buck than fussing over fret nibs.



from what i know of japan, i would say it was the other way around. their culture influenced their manufacturing goals.
either way, for us as consumers, its a win


----------



## GuitarsCanada

cheezyridr said:


> from what i know of japan, i would say it was the other way around. their culture influenced their manufacturing goals.
> either way, for us as consumers, its a win


I think, that for right now, the vast majority of the Chinese makers are simply providing a cheap product to make money. The Japanese may have started out that way but it was soon evident that you had some real craftsmen there. I think that is possible in China, its just having the desire to do so. I don't see that right now.


----------



## cheezyridr

agreed. but that's what i sorta mean by the cultural influence. japan wanted to be the best they could be. china wants to make money. different goals 
i dont know why this thread showed up as unread for me today.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

cheezyridr said:


> agreed. but that's what i sorta mean by the cultural influence. japan wanted to be the best they could be. china wants to make money. different goals
> i dont know why this thread showed up as unread for me today.


Somebody must have voted on the poll. Each time a vote is placed it will send the thread back to the top


----------



## Milkman

Steadfastly said:


> And, Scott, I would say you are at least 100% correct.


We can't put the genie back in the bottle, but we can stop rubbing the f#%king lamp.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Pictures reloaded to thread. After all this time and re-evaluating it closely. This guitar was a total piece of shit and worth maybe $25


----------



## Guest

worth a Townsend swing for video at least.


----------



## Robert1950

laristotle said:


> worth a Townsend swing for video at least.


Here is some inspiration...


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Sounds like a nice summer project there


----------



## Guest

how'z about coming up to Riff Wrath's jam in june with it?
or the hardball (if it's happening).


----------



## Distortion

Get out the lighter fluid and light it up at your next gig like Hendrix did.


----------



## vadsy

Distortion said:


> Get out the lighter fluid and light it up at your next gig like Hendrix did.


I’d sell it to an unsuspecting senior intending a gift for one of their stupid grandchildren


----------

