# How do you deal with perfectionism?



## Yair Matayev (1 mo ago)

We practice, practice and practice. And when the time to record comes, we realize how much more we have to practice to reach the desired result.

I believe many other players here are trying to be less of a perfectionist regarding recording and performing. Still, they love their playing without getting upset later about the mistakes or imperfections.

Coping methods are different and depend on each person's personality type.

For example, as a person who analyzes things in depth, I can delve more and more into what can be improved, removed, or added. The answer is probably counterintuitive, which means thinking less and feeling more.

What do you think?


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

Have you heard the new Metallica song. 😆 Wouldnt worry too much about perfectionism, laid back behind the beat songs are the ones i enjoy. 

Unless Mutt Lange is producing your album.😜


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## terminalvertigo (Jun 12, 2010)

strive to be mediocre


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Yair Matayev said:


> thinking less and feeling more


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Being kind of the Luddite village idiot I don't overthink things, and very much subscribe to a guerrilla recording technique, ie, as few takes as possible, very little if any punching in, basic mixing, no FX beyond reverb (except perhaps on electric guitar), no auto-tune, everything mic'd (no interface), live-ish room, etc. The only times I've gone for more polish is for CD release, but that really only amounts to more mixing, and better attention to mic placement etc. If I was a painter I wouldn't be into realism. However, I want a good acoustic sound hitting the mic diaphragm in a decent room so I don't need to compensate for bad tone source. It relieves me of having to analyze, diagnose, troubleshoot, and fix.


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## Paul M (Mar 27, 2015)

Perfect is the enemy of good.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

terminalvertigo said:


> strive to be mediocre


You can't steal my mantra!!!
..... unless there is a strat in the mail?


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## Verne (Dec 29, 2018)

Mark Brown said:


> You can't steal my mantra!!!
> ..... unless there is a strat in the mail?


Sorry, but I used similar in poetry years ago.

I float in a sea of mediocrity
Skies as vibrant as the colour gray 


and so forth. So my Strat please Mark??


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## powrshftr (Sep 8, 2006)

Perfection does tend to crush spontaneity if you obsess over it. Some guys are going to laugh at this reference,but when I was in college, one of my favourite “guitar records” was Girlfriend, by Mathew Sweet….it was all raw as hell, 1st or 2nd takes of the songs, with a couple of really aggressive guitar players getting great tones out of minimalistic rigs.
That might not be everyone’s perfect album, but the mechanics of it were pure magic to me at the time, and left a lasting mark on my wee little hamster brain.😁


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## Verne (Dec 29, 2018)

powrshftr said:


> Girlfriend, by Mathew Sweet….


I love that song. I recall the video is animated as well if memory serves.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

I'll just come out and say it. I am a shitty guitar player. There. 
That wasn't so bad.

Now, if we measured success in enjoyment, well then I am a star. 

Now for a different point....


Yair Matayev said:


> I believe many other players here are trying to be less of a perfectionist regarding recording and performing.


I am not sure this guy isn't calling us hacks.....


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

Yair Matayev said:


> For example, as a person who analyzes things in depth, I can delve more and more into what can be improved, removed, or added. The answer is probably counterintuitive, which means thinking less and feeling more.


If we're talking obvious mistakes or shortcomings, then sure, I'm unhappy. But that also means I know what to work on.

If it's more subtle, or if I feel I'm being too picky, then I'll step back and let it breathe. Maybe give it a day or so. If I listen back and it still sounds terrible to me, I'll see if there's a way I can fix it.

I also make sure to consider whatever I contributed in the context of the rest of the band or ensemble. Because maybe those little things I'm worried about don't matter if everything else is cooking and the vibe is there.

If it's a live gig posted on YouTube, then you're screwed, unfortunately. 😆 Just don't watch it.

Having said that, remember that there are probably times when you were happy with your playing. Try to remember that as well. We aren't limited to our worst performances.

Also, if you're constantly comparing yourself to other people, it's a good idea to stop. Why beat yourself up because you're not so-and-so? It won't help.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

one thing that was an eye opener for me is that it's one thing to practice practicing

it's a different skill to practice performing and a different skill again to practice recording

j


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

Can you pick it up on the beat is the key. Even playing Bach it don't mean a thing if it don't swing and sing. If you do make note error so be it, after a time the urge to change notes will get the better of anyone with ears to hear the harmonic and voice leading possibilities that can come from a good rif.

I am not saying that this is fudging it at all but the truth is most of the great composers were great improvisers. Notes are not written in stone and for good reasons. If you can create a new version and admit that it just came out of your ears and your fingers the original composer would not be at all displeased. On the contrary if a musician is capable of creating there own version of a great piece and that version pays homage to the original composer then that is music.

The recording industry put a monkey wrench into creativity because the listening audience by and large wants to hear the same thing over and over or something completely new. This was not so in the Baroque era or the early Classical era of music and great jazz revived the ability of musicians to create on the spot.
Glen Gould hated live performance precisely because of the audience expectations not because he could not repeat exactly what he did the last performance. Perhaps that is why he made extraneous vocalizations that drove Columbia Records nuts. On top of that perhaps he was smart enough to do it so that no one else could claim his version of a master piece. Little did he know at the time that digitization of music was just around the corner and his recording would eventually be purified and purged of the obligato he made vocally by Sony digital technologies.

Great music is an act and the actor is good musician if they can invoke new expressions and feel with a piece of music when either recording or performing. Great music has humor and ever other human emotion in it, then there is schlock elevator performance where the musician is expected to repeat the same schtick over and over without variations at all. Computer generated music from score is such as are dynamically compressed digital recording of music suitable for fm radio in the car. I want to hear the sound of the sweat from the musician hitting the top of the violin when I listen to a musician I want to hear them sigh if they act out a passage that expresses angst not a reduced and purified MacDonald's hamboogerd' and fries performance and recording! Same thing with ensemble performances.

That is the beauty of great music like the compositions of Bach, every time you play a piece it can be expressed in a new way if you trust your musical spirit to sing and dance while you play and know every note of the piece.
Certainly learn a piece by playing it straight but find the depth in what is possible with even a single note of a great tune and music will never become staid and boring. The same thing applies if you write it down or record it always work diligently on the flow and line and let yourself go with good discipline to pick up the beat or play after the beat like Louis Armstrong and nail the melody and bingo you have the secret to great performance and recording.
If you listen to the recordings below the phrasing is not spot on the written music at all. On the violin the very same piece has a different sense of dance because the bass notes are implied. However if one only expects to hear the violin character of this piece then the potential of the music is put in a musical jail. Great composers like Bach fully understood this and deliberately wrote music so it could be interpreted differently every time you play it on different instruments. One cannot say one version is better than another or risk losing the potential to find different ways to express themselves while they are playing which is the key to good acting or musicianship.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Mark Brown said:


> Now for a different point....
> 
> I am not sure this guy isn't calling us hacks.....


Yeah, I caught that too, but thought I'd wait for his evidence that he is not a troll. 
More to the point, @Yair Matayev, show your work.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I wouldn't say I strive for perfectionism but it seems like I worry about the minor details of a song and getting it right more than anybody else in the band. Its kind of disappointing some times.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Mark Brown said:


> I'll just come out and say it. I am a shitty guitar player. There.
> That wasn't so bad.
> 
> Now, if we measured success in enjoyment, well then I am a star.
> ...



My natural tendency is to think I am a crap-ass hack because I can't play precise scales at speed like Yngwie with a snootful of Bolivian marching powder, but I am trying to accept that I can do some cool stuff.

But perfection doesn't matter when you are playing to have fun. And that should be the goal for a non-pro (HAH!) like me.


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

Yair Matayev said:


> For example, as a person who analyzes things in depth, I can delve more and more into what can be improved, removed, or added. The answer is probably counterintuitive, which means thinking less and feeling more.





Grab n Go said:


> Also, if you're constantly comparing yourself to other people, it's a good idea to stop. Why beat yourself up because you're not so-and-so? It won't help.


It's so true, that shit is killing the joy out of playing. And it's especially difficult to do when you do a lot of transcribing of great player because you kind of instantly hear how much you suck playing over the same tune note for note.

But, I constantly have to remind myself of this, every musician is different, no matter how good you are you will never sound exactly like someone else.

THAT BEING SAID, comparing your playing is self punishment but identifying the things to work on to sound the way you want to sound is definitely worth it in my book. I record myself a lot for that purpose.
And it can sure feels overwhelming, I can play along Robben Ford but when I listen back the time feel is not there, the dynamic is lacking, the phrasing sucks...

Which leads to the (probably) second most detrimental things you can do after comparing yourself: expecting too fast.
If it seems like a lot of work, it's because it is a lot of work. 

You can lower your expectations, or accept that it is about the journey and not the destination.
But music does not have to be binary you can still enjoy your playing AND strive to be a better player, it's a (slow) process to repeat, the more you do it the better you get.

In a nutshell I don't think perfectionism is an issue, it's having unrealistic expectation that is.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Perfectionism isn't in itself a bad thing. Here's a handy chart from my buddy's counselling notes:









The classic adage, "It's about the journey, not the destination", is helpful here. Learning to embrace the process is far more important the celebrating the victories.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Rollin Hand said:


> My natural tendency is to think I am a crap-ass hack because I can't play precise scales at speed like Yngwie with a snootful of Bolivian marching powder, but I am trying to accept that I can do some cool stuff.


If Yngwie was the measure of what a good player should be then almost everyone would be a hack. My measure would be someone like Brent Mason who could probably do what Yngwie could do and so, so much more. None of us mere mortals have any right to compare our selves to either of those guys.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

guitarman2 said:


> If Yngwie was the measure of what a good player should be then almost everyone would be a hack. My measure would be someone like Brent Mason who could probably do what Yngwie could do and so, so much more. None of us mere mortals have any right to compare our selves to either of those guys.


Well, Yngwie was used as more of a known speed/precision indicator.

When I think of people who can do anything they want to do on the thing, I think of Eric Johnson and Joe Bonamassa. And I am not huge fans of either because there is no danger in their playing. 

It all comes down to songs. My reward to myself for getting through a portion of my practice when I was younger was I would allow myself to play a song or two. And I used to do exercises while listening to Monty Python tapes, which may be weird.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

I think you need to be who you are. If you are type A, overly analytical and driven to perfection, soak it up, go all in on that. Why would you be and do any different? 

I'll tell you though, as I age (now 58) I'm having to learn to accept limitations on physical ability. I don't have many aggressive rock guitar solos in me anymore.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Interesting discussion....I took practice very seriously at the beginning....probably due to starting late (19). Practice, practice and more practice was the key for me. It helped build good technique (along with following guitar players that used 4 finger technique as opposed to 3). It allowed me to explore more ideas as I grew as a guitar player. Would that constitute perfectionism? Maybe, but I'm thankful I did as I can and have played in bands of varying styles which I find very satisfying.🙂


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## string_cheese (2 mo ago)

To me, timing is everything. Therefore, you can't play a piece on guitar, until it is effortless. So easy that you almost never make any mistakes. In that sense, I think you need perfectionism. If you really want to master a song, and really play it with groove and feel. But also, there's nothing wrong with guitar just being a hobby, and whenever you've gotten satisfaction from learning a thing, that's great. So, it kind of depends on your goals. Perfectionism can get in the way, but for guitar, or any instrument, it also sort of IS the way.

Analytical might be cool for some people, and that's great. There is no right or wrong. For me music is felt. So, analytics don't come into it.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

Eric Reesor said:


> Glen Gould hated live performance precisely because of the audience expectations not because he could not repeat exactly what he did the last performance. Perhaps that is why he made extraneous vocalizations that drove Columbia Records nuts. On top of that perhaps he was smart enough to do it so that no one else could claim his version of a master piece. Little did he know at the time that digitization of music was just around the corner and his recording would eventually be purified and purged of the obligato he made vocally by Sony digital technologies.


I always thought it was just a thing that some musicians do. It's all over many of Keith Jarrett's recordings.

As a kid, my parents had me go see a famous pianist perform along with some childhood friends. We were way too immature to appreciate it at the time and had to work really hard at not giggling during his vocalizations.


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## Speck_WFTR (2 mo ago)

(mistakes aside)

To me re-doing something because one doesn't _like_ it is not perfectionism. That is re-doing something because ya don't _like_ it. Liking & loving come from feelings.

Seems to me perfectionism requires judgment, which is a mind/ego thing ... which again seems counter-productive/intuitive with regards to music (creativity).

To me creativity (music, art) is a "heart & soul" thing. It's feeling(s).
Not a mind/ego thing.

Basically where the mind/ego is, love cannot be, and vice-versa.

So then to me ... if someone is talking about perfectionism, maybe the problem is having the mind/ego "over involved" in the first place, hence the problem.


[edit: also, perfectionism can be viewed as a personality disorder as "who among us can actually claim perfection"]

... and totally agree with @zztomato gotta BE who you are, for better or worse. *OWN* it man. Anything else invites all manner of issues. Besides ... who the %&@# can tell you yer doin' it wrong?


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

For me perfection comes when play Bach and finding a groove that you didn't read in the score. There are many tabs of this tune floating around on the interweb. But the truth is that if you can't just do your own thing with it every time you play the structural head of the changes and vary the tune greatly and just try to copy a recording you miss the point of the music. For me if I get caught in a perfectionism trap learning a new piece or bringing up one that I have played well in the past then I go back to improvising on easy riffs like this one. On classical guitar especially if you think that the written music anything more than a guideline to learn a piece then the ability to express one self becomes lessened greatly. That is why it is important to listen to other musicians and not judge and over analyse either their playing or your own. This especially goes for those who must analyse every chord and move in modality that a jazz musician plays or which notes to and cadences to accentuate in a fully written out tune. If you think of the music of Maurice Ravel as only chord changes and not movement in interwoven musical lines then the true power of what one can do with even the simplest of music is inevitably lost. As Burton Cummings so aptly put it "take a rhapsody and cleverly disguise it so its not been heard before" is what musical expression in pure form is all about. 

Try ones best to study studies yes, but play music and things become much easier when either recording or playing in public. Above all do not fear making note errors always pick up the music immediately in a relaxed manner and let go of the self recriminations of not being able to play a piece perfectly. The truth is there is no such thing in the auditory art of creating music.
One of the most panned of all guitarists with finger noises and extraneous expression while playing was this fellow that had no trouble expressing a tune differently and capturing the spirit of what playing freely is all about.
I loved his take on this tune by the folk legend Davy Graham and also appreciated the more refined approach to the same riff by Paul Simon who recorded it more cleanly. Both approaches are equally valid in my mind, Jansch was much more raw and cutting Simon refined and almost pure. Both capture the essence of what the tune does emotionally and that is all that can be expected from a musician.


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## blueshores_guy (Apr 8, 2007)

Perfection, for me, is not a realistic goal, because I know I'll never achieve it. Not even close. Just for a bit of background, I don't play in a band, and hardly ever play anybody else's songs. On the rare occasions when I do play somebody else's work, it's usually altered so much that it becomes unrecognizable. My enjoyment comes from creating my own compositions (I use that term loosely), then recording them to the point where I can actually derive some meagre amount of pleasure from listening to them. For many reasons, none of them ever approach perfection, and I'm quite aware of that. Thankfully, when I'm recording, the opportunity to correct obvious flubs is always available. Usually many, many re-do's happen. All part of the recording process for me, I'm afraid.
So I live with my imperfections, and am happy enough with my efforts to date that I keep playing, keep writing, and keep recording, always trying to improve during the process.


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

I respect the pursuit of perfection. Defining perfection is another matter. Obviously, performance vs recording are two different things. Expectations/ What is appropriate, for various genre's differ as well.

The random imperfections of an inspired performance are usually more interesting (IMO) than listening to someone executing "just like the record/a perfect regurgitation of the original".

Having transcribed and performed some fairly challenging material, I appreciate the time and skill involved. Yet...

In a way, "nailing" a piece of music is more like a sports activity, coordination/execution. A true achievement but hard to argue that you are anything more than a human jukebox. All good though, transcribing really is one of the best ways to build chops and expand your musical understanding.

Perfection is a foundational concept but IMO, a performer's ability to impart their musical personality/ability to play in the moment is equally important.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

If we can play at a level where an accomplished player doesn't notice out mistakes, that should make us feel very good about our playing. Of course, we are the ones who usually notices all of our mistakes. It's essential that we are not too hard on ourselves. Just work on the part where we make the mistakes and that will improve.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Steadfastly said:


> If we can play at a level where an accomplished player doesn't notice out mistakes, that should make us feel very good about our playing. Of course, we are the ones who usually notices all of our mistakes. It's essential that we are not too hard on ourselves. Just work on the part where we make the mistakes and that will improve.


Man, you got it all wrong. Just make nothing but mistakes and if anyone has the gall to question you, look them dead in the eye and say if they don't understand free form jazz then it isn't up to you to explain it.

Got me out of a bind or two if I am being completely dishonest.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I don’t give a tinkers toss about perfectionism. I started playing guitar in grade 5 or 6 been at it ever since and somewhere along the way I learned a bit of theory. I can play and sing and make up riffs and lead parts and I write songs about imperfect situations some of which are downright hopeless but the happier songs involve stolen kegs of beer and a gutted deer hangin from an oak etc. I can down six cans of beer, line them up on a rail fence and knock them all off with a .38 revolver from 40 feet. That’s as near as I need to get to perfection…


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Mark Brown said:


> Man, you got it all wrong. Just make nothing but mistakes and if anyone has the gall to question you, look them dead in the eye and say if they don't understand free form jazz then it isn't up to you to explain it.
> 
> Got me out of a bind or two if I am being completely dishonest.


^^^^^^^^^^ Your post above deserves this.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

I think at a certain stage, like @zztomato said, you get to be you; playing becomes an extension of your character, and manner of speaking.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

There's a huge difference between being a performer and a recording player. I think you are just finding this out. 

I was watching a yt video yesterday with Tim Pierce playing to a backing track. Guys like him can hear a song once and have everything charted. Then right after play an amazing solo flawlessly. And do this all day. 

It's a skill to play without errors, extraneous string noise etc. 

But if you are able to record your parts on a loop with takes to layers you should find out of 10 takes one or two will be 90% and the other takes will have what you need to edit the perfect track.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Joe Diorio expressed something to the tune of "you can't get it all, but you try to get what you can and move on". I think it to mean that perfection is the body of work, and not any one single thing inside of it. And a body of work is alive and temporal, rather than some thing caste in unflinching stately perfection.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Sometimes you need a little tough love intervention on the perfectionist. 

I played at an event on Friday evening with several others. 

After the show the guy who organized it complimented one of the groups on their performance and one of the group members started right in on his list of mistakes they had made and how bad it was compared to what they were capable of yada yada 

Didn't take long and a guy from another band interrupted him and said, "The man just complimented you. Now you say thanks and that's all."

Little pause and the conversation moved on to other things. 

Got to break the cycle and it worked. 

j


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

I found a quick video from Bob Reynolds this morning on his practice routine, it's 5' (link below). He unintentionally touches upon this topic when he describes how he transcribes: analysing his tone, finger position, time... and I find it's a good example healthy perfectionism.

Sure, Bob is a pro and a great player. As a hobbyist, we can enjoy guitar any way we want, there's no one and unique way to have fun, true. But if part of the pleasure is getting better at the instrument, then there's a stronger consensus on what works and what does not.

If you've heard Bob play "Can't wait for perfect" (ironically ), it's hard to argue he's not being creative or playing with feel. One can be both analytical AND play with feel, they just don't happen at the same time, what many musicians, like Tim Pierce for instance, refer to as practice and performance mode.

There's no issue with perfectionism itself, it's only a problem if it became maladaptive as @jbealsmusic illustrated in his post.

I've seen many time the topic of "feel vs thinking" or "creative vs analytical", like one diminishes the other, but in my experience this black and white approach is detrimental.
No one is arguing how anyone should enjoy playing guitar, but there's a place for healthy perfectionism in your practice if you want to get better. Being yourself does not mean giving up on the idea to improve as a musician (or an individual).

And Bob's video:


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