# Playing and singing



## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Since another thread threw in a possible mismatch between keys as singing and guitar arrangement are concerned, I wonder how guitar players manage this issue.

In other words, did you have to find your singing range and most comfortable key ?
Did it occur naturally or did you have to adjust because you did hit a wall ?

I once read one could take his guitar, vocalize along the notes to find his/her lower and higher notes and define comfortable key somewhere in the middle of these extremes.

How did you do ?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I always thought it strange when people said they 'could only sing songs in G and A' or whatever. 

IME, the melody of a song modulates around a key (that's the tune of the song). One song in G may use a very different range of notes above or below G that the next one won't. 

I'm not a great singer so I just find songs that work for my range and abilities, regardless of key. And I've been known to transpose songs to help either myself or other singers. For example, it's pretty common in my crowd to play Long Train Runnin' in E instead of G, because G's bloody high. Not Geddy Lee high, but pretty high none-the-less.


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## CathodeRay (Jan 12, 2018)

mawmow said:


> I once read one could take his guitar, vocalize along the notes to find his/her lower and higher notes and define comfortable key somewhere in the middle of these extremes.


Vocal range in the livingroom w/ an acoustic is a lot different than when belting it out 'live'. 
A vocal teacher taught me that first thing.
That was an aha moment, because previously I'd transpose to my livingroom range, and it wouldn't work at a jam.


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## CathodeRay (Jan 12, 2018)

High/Deaf said:


> I always thought it strange when people said they 'could only sing songs in G and A' or whatever.
> 
> IME, the melody of a song modulates around a key (that's the tune of the song). One song in G may use a very different range of notes above or below G that the next one won't.
> 
> I'm not a great singer so I just find songs that work for my range and abilities, regardless of key. And I've been known to transpose songs to help either myself or other singers. For example, it's pretty common in my crowd to play Long Train Runnin' in E instead of G, because G's bloody high. Not Geddy Lee high, but pretty high none-the-less.



Agreed, it's finding out if you're a comfortable Alto etc. not any particular key.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

CathodeRay said:


> Vocal range in the livingroom w/ an acoustic is a lot different than when belting it out 'live'.


Is that ever true!


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## nbs2005 (Mar 21, 2018)

As others have said; figure out what your most comfortable spot is and work around it. I had a big breakthrough when I took a couple of singing lessons. There's so much pressure (real or imagined) to sing at or near the top of your range. I'm a bass as a singer; my voice works better in the lower range. Once I got comfortable with that, my singing got much better.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Thanks for these experienced hints.

But how did you come to find your range ?
Trials and errors ?

I discussed that a bit with my guitar teacher (he also acts as back vocal) this morning :
He used to sing in a choir many years ago, so got help from the director.


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## nbs2005 (Mar 21, 2018)

My voice teacher took me through some exercises and we found the top and bottom of my range (we did it on the piano, but you can do it on a guitar). It was bit of an eye opener how low I could go and still get a solid tone (your notes do get a bit weaker and usually flatter at the extreme; that's OK and expected). Then it's just a matter of concentrating on singing in that comfort zone. I sing/play songs in all keys but I know I sound best if I sing a C (for example for the key of C) note in the middle of my range, not a higher C.

And I'm in no way an expert at this stuff. I'd suggest a couple of lessons with a dedicated voice instructor. I got 4 50min lessons for $180 and it was absolutely worth it.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Isn't this what a capo is for? Lol


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

I have been working on my singing for the past year or so. I am bored with trying to be a guitar god. 

No lessons, but I think I am getting better.

At my high range limit I just try to hit the note accurately with decent expression of feeling. I have not been a fan of "power" singing since Janice Joplin died. I like the way Dolly Parton hold back on her volume as her pitch rises on each reptition of the name "Jolene". Most singers rise in pitch AND volume effectively ruining the song.

I am working on breath control today. I use "Slip Sliding Away" (Paul Simon) and "VeraCruz" (Warren Zevon) as practice pieces. 

Also, I use the Bare Naked Ladies: "Say you'll never love another 'til you love yourself, well brother, I'm in love with everyone I see!" (All one breath, loud as possible) 

When going to falsetto, it's sometimes important to find the correct place to switch for a subtle transition. Therefore, work on the low end of your falsetto as well. Example: "Don't Dream It's Over" (Crowded House), I start my chorus in falsetto so there is no noticeable change at the word "dream". 

Be sure to carefully and respectfully try songs with melody that use tricky notes that could easily be changed to something else (by mistake). "Been to Canaan" (Carol King), "Loves Shines" (Ron Sexsmith), "VeraCruz".

These comments subject to revision by real singers of course. Lol.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

This guy has a lot of free videos out there you can check out. More about singing than playing and singing though.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

If your full singing voice (not indoor voice) gets thin and squeaky on the high notes, that's too high. Try the song in a lower key. If you're inaudible on the low notes, try raising the key. 

And find a voice teacher. A good voice teacher is worth his/her weight in gold and you will never lose what you've learned.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

I can sing while playing guitar, including tough syncopations like Hendrix/Lynott, but,
I find it a more difficult with bass. I'm comfortable with back up/harmonies there.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

knight_yyz said:


> Isn't this what a capo is for? Lol


Yep, I actually never used a capo until I started singing


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

So what's this about a living room voice and a difference if you are at a jam or something and maybe requiring a transpose for this.

I switch some songs into to different keys for vocal but not many and I sing fairly loud at home on either electric or acoustic - but I'm not finding any big difference at a jam other than what the PA adds and nothing that would suggest to me that I need to switch that to a different key if there's a band involved.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

If you cant hit the note. Get right up to the mic and cut your volume. Not great but will get you through a lot of times.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Doug Gifford said:


> ... And find a voice teacher. A good voice teacher is worth his/her weight in gold and you will never lose what you've learned.


Yup.



laristotle said:


> I can sing while playing guitar, including tough syncopations like Hendrix/Lynott, but,
> I find it a more difficult with bass. I'm comfortable with back up/harmonies there.


Yup. Except that I'm still working on being able to sing harmonies.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

bw66 said:


> Yup.
> Yup. Except that I'm still working on being able to sing harmonies.


Not sure what the connection is. A good harmony singer is a good singer. And a teacher can help you with that.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Doug Gifford said:


> Not sure what the connection is. A good harmony singer is a good singer. And a teacher can help you with that.


Absolutely. I was referring to Larry's comment that he finds it easier to sing harmony than melody while playing bass. I also find it harder to sing while playing bass than while playing guitar, but I find singing harmonies very difficult at the best of times, Singing harmonies is actually one of the main things that I have been working on with my vocal coach lately.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I have trouble singing & playing at the same time.
Especially on guitar.
I find it less difficult when playing bass.
But then I'm not a greta singer either.

I've tried all the tricks, methods, practice, etc--none of it works for me.
I have trouble counting out loud while I play.
I can do it in my head, but add the saying the numbers outlaid while playing? It adds a whole new layer to things.


Thats aid the thing that I sometimes don't lie about switching keys for the singer (& I get that sometimes it is necessary, although sometimes it is laziness not he part of the singer & sometimes it is out of their range.) Is that some songs just sound better in certain keys, but I've learned to adapt--although there are keys I am not a fan of playing in.
(And I don't like using capos)

Oh well, enough of that.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

I keep my guitar tuned down 1/2 step to Eb. I find this helps a lot.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I learned to sing (to an extent) out of necessity. I can transpose if needed, but with covers, a lot of times there are open chords or notes that really impact the sound of the song when you change the key.

I tended to try and stay with the original key, or find other songs that I could do well as written.

I like being close to but not at the limit of my comfortable range (when singing 20~40 rock songs, that definitely matters).

I find my voice sounds best when pushed a little.


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

mawmow said:


> Since another thread threw in a possible mismatch between keys as singing and guitar arrangement are concerned, I wonder how guitar players manage this issue.
> 
> In other words, did you have to find your singing range and most comfortable key ?
> Did it occur naturally or did you have to adjust because you did hit a wall ?
> ...


For me: 

- find range by doing the do-so 5 major notes up and down. Then move a semi-tone up and do again. Keep
Strong air tension in the diaphragm. Take note of the “Sol” not where you crap out on the high side and the “do” note on the low side. 
- find the range of all the songs you want to sing and transpose them into a key that works given your new info. 


Voila. ex: for me I’m ok singing low Eb (just under the 6th string) and G (3rd fret 1st string). I can do the Ab above when I’m warmed up.


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## brucew (Dec 30, 2017)

player99 said:


> I keep my guitar tuned down 1/2 step to Eb. I find this helps a lot.


Keep mine in std D a whole step down, but I just sing to the walls and the wife.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

zontar said:


> But then I'm not a greta singer either.


Not many are. It takes a certain amount of chutzpah (and other traits......).










And it looks like she doesn't memorize the words?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Wardo said:


> So what's this about a living room voice and a difference if you are at a jam or something and maybe requiring a transpose for this.
> 
> I switch some songs into to different keys for vocal but not many and I sing fairly loud at home on either electric or acoustic - but I'm not finding any big difference at a jam other than what the PA adds and nothing that would suggest to me that I need to switch that to a different key if there's a band involved.


I think they were two separate thoughts:
- finding it hard to sing as hard in the living room as we do bellowing it out at a jam or live gig (bigger room, more people, louder band behind you, etc)
- sometimes transposing songs to suit your vocal range

I don't prefer transposing either, but sometimes it seems to be a good option. I'd transpose a tune before I'd tune my guitar down a semi-tone or tone to compensate. That a) makes it hard to play with others and b) really screws up the harp and piano players.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Thanks a lot guys for sharing your thoughts and experience.

This also reminded me that transposing key is easily done with a capo 
which also allows to keep signature guitar effects a real transposition could loose.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Yeah, I used to drop a half tone for vocal when I first started singing but it was no good for playing with different people every week. Eventually my range got better and I have no problem with standard now.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

Wait a minute. Could everyone tune down so I can sing. You got a strat with a floating bridge. I will wait ten minutes.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

Distortion said:


> Wait a minute. Could everyone tune down so I can sing. You got a strat with a floating bridge. I will wait ten minutes.


Have a guy I play with who believes in the magic power of tuning to A = 332. Oh ffs.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Personally I find playing, singing and playing while singing to be 3 completely different skills.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

JBFairthorne said:


> Personally I find playing, singing and playing while singing to be 3 completely different skills.


I occasionally sing with the cathedral choir in Kingston -- I take lessons from the organist/choir director. He will play organ on three manuals and pedals, switch organ voices, direct the choir, sing parts where we need support and watch the church for cues. All at once. Amazing musician.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

uhhhh , take cues from someone playing with his organ in church ? ( gotta stop trying to speed read )


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I was having no problem playing and singing until I decided to learn Roy Orbison's Pretty Woman. Near the end of the song it repeats the riff over and over about 15 times and when it gets there I turn into Porky Pig and my fingers stop obeying commands


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## SG-Rocker (Dec 30, 2007)

AC/DC's Brian Johnson sings at normal speaking volume.










Sent from my SM-G965W using Tapatalk


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

knight_yyz said:


> I was having no problem playing and singing until I decided to learn Roy Orbison's Pretty Woman. Near the end of the song it repeats the riff over and over about 15 times and when it gets there I turn into Porky Pig and my fingers stop obeying commands


I find that playing repeated patterns and singing at the same time is particularly hard. Not sure why.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Doug Gifford said:


> I occasionally sing with the cathedral choir in Kingston -- I take lessons from the organist/choir director. He will play organ on three manuals and pedals, switch organ voices, direct the choir, sing parts where we need support and watch the church for cues. All at once. Amazing musician.


I’ve known folks like that, have page turned for them too. Freaky stuff.

Several years ago I was in a somewhat experimental band called The Bag Of Hammers. We were all multi instrumentalists, but the most talented was our drummer who would sing (headset mic), play a full kit with two feet and one hand while playing keys (he had a degree in piano) with whatever hand he had available. It would have been tough for us to do Stevie Wonder’s Sir Duke as a three piece otherwise.


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

Not the greatest signer but i do my share and get by. It came naturally when i started playing back in early 60's. We had amazing bands, Beatles, Rolling Stones,Animals etc... The only thing i struggle with is lyrics. been signing the same songs forever and still cant do it without my book.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> Not many are. It takes a certain amount of chutzpah (and other traits......).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then there was the Fender Greta amp--and lots of typos of the Fender Great Amp (Not a comment on it--I know some people really liked it, and I wouldn't have turned one down.)

(Odd I type "Greta" and auto correct changed it to "Great", but when I mistyped "Great" as "Greta" it doesn't?)


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)




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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

if you heard me , you'd pay me NOT to sing.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

mawmow said:


> But how did you come to find your range ?
> Trials and errors ?


yup

plus some failure for motivation. 

some songs the instrumental line only works in a certain key so then you're stuck either doing it or not

i learned by T&E (mostly E) that the range that makes sense for me practicing alone at midnight by a candle with an acoustic guitar is about a major third lower than what makes sense at a solo live show that i'm excited to be playing at especially if i'm also putting it on

simple songs with repeated notes in a fairly wide range that are playable in a bunch of keys are good tests

the jason isbell song "24 frames" works pretty well and so does adam baldwin "living proof" and they're both good songs anyway

some songs need to be pushed past the end of your comfortable range. try singing U2 "Where the Streets ... " down at the bottom of your range some time it's weird sounds like a parody

and your range singing into a mic is different than your range belting it out acoustically or in a choir

j


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

oldjoat said:


> if you heard me , you'd pay me NOT to sing.


That is how my father wished he had closed bars at night ! ;-)
I mean paid to sing just after last call )
That is why I do not sing either. :-/


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

ya don't have to be able to sing to enjoy good music !


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

oldjoat said:


> if you heard me , you'd pay me NOT to sing.


It's a living.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Singing intervals and sight singing are common methods to improve vocals. Takes a bit of work though.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

Dorian2 said:


> Singing intervals and sight singing are common methods to improve vocals. Takes a bit of work though.


I recall how I avoided that part of my homework in university. It showed.


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