# Ottawa LRT



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

council approved the "ride for free" new years eve 
leave your car at home , experience the LRT for free on new years eve .

the brand new system broke down early in the evening for 30 minutes 
later in the night it failed completely for 2 hrs ... 

extra buses were dispatched to cover the system , but wait ! most of the bus drivers were out celebrating new years eve ... 

once again , ottawa is the butt of many rightly earned jokes .


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

Showing off usually ends with beaver tail on your face ( no not that beaver tail ). The pastry. .


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)




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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

This reminds me of the fast ferry fiasco bc went through in the 90’s

“Well we tried, time to sell it for half what it cost and go back to the old system”


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Rip up the tracks and turn them into bicycle trails.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

well they did a 50/50 for a week or so , it looked good to them , did a hard switch over and it fell flat on its' face the first week 

they recalled the bus drivers and did a re-set and ran parallel for another couple of weeks ... "got all the bugs worked out " ( still smiling faces )
did the switch again ... fell flat on its face with the shoe laces tied together .

red faces all around , sorry , sorry , sorry .... bring back the buses on standby in case the system fails 
no longer "on time and on budget" ... millions in the red and still not trustworthy .



player99 said:


> Rip up the tracks and turn them into bicycle trails.


 yeah ... a 2.5 billion fiasco ... just add another 2 billion to tear them up and pave it so a few die hard bikes can use it (and a 4 KM tunnel without lights )


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

Just watch the oc transpo union will use this as an opportunity to strike in the winter again “we got em by the short n curlys now lads”


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

It's so bad they bought the wrong type of cars. Why did they not talk to Toronto about what works and what doesn't? Could it be that mayor Oogly Woogly Watson was getting money kickbacks for using SNC? He must have taken cash from the owners of the Laurier Hotel, otherwise why would he have blocked the councilors who were trying to get the design reviewed and have it approved in one day? There is no legitimate reason for that behaviour other than cash in a briefcase.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

designed by a model train guy with an oval in his basement , round and round ... how hard can it be ?
no real sidings to shuttle broken trains onto , except at the far reaches 
no real heaters in the trains ( who'da thought it gets cold in winter ?)
if one train goes down , they all grind to a halt ( remember the oval ? )
built and already at capacity ( with only 1 backup train )
council not allowed to see the actual first contract they approved ( too confidential ?)
urged to sign phase 2 before phase 1 was completed and signed off ( it may cost us more later if we delay... OK take our money )
not seeing the second phase contract before approving it too. (take more of our money SNC )

they did consult other places AFTER they failed again and again ... 
they were laughed at " you did what ?"


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

laristotle said:


>


I gotta send that to a buddy.

Glad my brother and his gf have cars.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

Budda said:


> Glad my brother and his gf have cars.


 so do they ...


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

A lot of fanciful conspiracies to go around.
Rapid and public transit systems are subject to a number of mitigating factors that can screw up even the best and best-intentioned of plans of otherwise competent people:
1) Like many big cities these days, developers seem to dictate the layout of the municipality, and consequently where public transit is and isn't cost-effective.
2) Rivers, canals and other geographic factors can make for bottlenecks that are difficult to engineer around. Consider Hamilton's general inability to have something between the mountain and the downtown core, other than buses. Ottawa has rivers and canals that limit the connections available. A reality, not an excuse.
3) The two major employers in the city - feds and telecomm - have either disappeared or moved around too much to make planning a simple task. Once upon a time, the objective was to get people downtown from the east end, or around Kanata. No more. 
4) Then there's the bugaboo of having not only two provinces to contend with, but also the National Capitol Commission, when it comes to what land and services each body has jurisdiction over. No other municipality in Canada has that hurdle to clear.

Justifiable public impatience over missed deadlines, broken promises, NIMBY debates, sinkhole intrusions, and poorly-designed bus-train handover points is understandable. My kid studies these things as a (semi) professional, and feels there is much blame to be spread around. Really and truly, the "trial period" should have been in the spring, but folks couldn't wait. The municipal budget couldn't really handle an extended trial period AND parallel bus system until the long trial was over, so the trial period was shorter than it should have been, and the passenger problems resulting from not enough bus drivers and parallel buses resulted. A friend wrote to the chair of the transportation committee with a suggestion that, until all the bugs were worked out, the 200-series express buses that make a half-dozen runs in the morning from collector routes to the terminals at the end of the LRT continue on for the 8-12 stops past the terminals to downtown, such that the passengers might be divvied up between buses and the trains. The chair wrote back that they estimate this would cost an additional million bucks a week and they simply couldn't afford it. Moreover, they laid off so many drivers to meet their budget that they don't have enough to provide that service, and don't even have enough trainers to train up new drivers were they to ever spring the bucks to augment the bus service.

As per usual, citizens are going to bitch about real and potential tax increases. You can't have it both ways.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

LRT seems to be a good decision. Too bad when problems like the one in Ottawa happen.

It seems like the one in K-W turned out well.

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/light-rail/kitchener-waterloo-lrt-an-in-depth-look/


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

so the nation's capital Councillors , are not smart enough to say ... "whoa ! , can't see the contract? ... too confidential? ... NO !, we won't sign !"
none of the city retained lawyers or Councillors looked over the contract and read the fine print .

then they do it all over again with phase 2 ? ...
with the same consortium that FAILED to meet the original bidding requirements and failed to deliver a working phase 1 ... 
I'm entitled to say they're not the sharpest tools in the shed 
and paying "Top Dollar" to get the best hasn't got us the best.

rail lines that snap in the cold , computers that shutdown like they're running Windows ( for a mission critical system ) , switches that fail and derail the trains 

rank amateurs.

back in the 60'- 70's downtown ottawa was the place to be ( and the workforce was concentrated there ) 
the commuter system was wheel (hub) topography , so everything ran to downtown ... the satellite communities didn't count.

the downtown has been left in the dust as companies move away from the high costs of the core ... 
relocating in more favourable outlying areas with less traffic congestion , an airport and parking for their employees.

but the core still clings to the idea that they still matter and are the end all and be all .
so they build a tunnel to no where , a transit system without parking at the end terminals to entice folks to take the LRT 
then cancel useful bus routes to concentrate on the core service ( that most people don't need any more , just simplton servants ) 
trips that took buses 45 minutes to complete , now take 3 transfers and 2 hours each way ( when everything IS running right )
all trips go downtown then back out to where you have to go .

forget the fact that they should have run the system east and west outside the core ... and had spurs running north and south , with local buses to collect/disperse the people as they use the system.

that would be way too simple and cost effective. (and efficient)


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## dtsaudio (Apr 15, 2009)

This one of the reasons that Hamilton's LRT got de-railed (pun intended).
It was the train to nowhere and was going to cost 5 times what they estimated, and another 5 times that to maintain it over 20 years. 
KW's works because it joined two areas that had limited road access and a minimum of disruption to existing business and infrastructure. 
The exact opposite of Hamilton's and Ottawa's.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

mike_oxbig said:


> This reminds me of the fast ferry fiasco bc went through in the 90’s
> 
> “Well we tried, time to sell it for half what it cost and go back to the old system”


Half? We coulda been so lucky. Try less than 5c on the dollar. 'NDP' and 'sound financial policy' tend to be oxymorons, IME.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...ferries-for-below-scrap-value/article1011974/


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> Half? We coulda been so lucky. Try less than 5c on the dollar. 'NDP' and 'sound financial policy' tend to be oxymorons, IME.
> 
> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/new...ferries-for-below-scrap-value/article1011974/


At least they sold the Ferries and they didn't just end up left to rot on the Fraser at Silverdale. Not too sure exactly when the Pacific Cats were sold but it seems they're mothballed in Egypt. Good place for them.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

or try the Bonaventure refit ... to the tune of 17 million (refitted in quebec of course ) 
refit finished in 1967 then scrapped in 1969 for less than $250,000 to the pacific rim.

our tax dollars hard at work


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Elected officials are elected on how popular they are. Not how smart, or experienced. So they fail a lot.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

Glad Hamilton got scraped. King street is way too narrow for it. I could see something like that on Cannon though. The plus would be less bus drivers to pay.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

so last thursday night , the overhead power cables for the trains snapped by a station ... whole system down overnight while they ran new wires for friday morning ...
4 months of use and the wires start to fail ... wonder how long before the rest of the wiring fails in sections.

lots of people have switched to cars 
most employers DON"T care how you get to work , just be on time each day or they will hire someone who can 
simpleton servants are exempt of course .


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

The mayor of Ottawa must have pocketed some big cash to use the corrupt SMC L to build this junk, considering they had never built one before. And it shows big time.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

player99 said:


> The mayor of Ottawa must have pocketed some big cash to use the corrupt SMC L to build this junk, considering they had never built one before. And it shows big time.


SNC built the Millennial Line portion of the Skytrain here I believe, early 2000s.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Can someone point me to a major infrastructure project that worked just fine on day 1? The bitching here, while entirely justified exasperation about what's not working, and how it buggers up your own life, seems to suggest that somewhere out there are similar major projects that ran absolutely smoothly right out of the gate, and use it as a basis for presuming corruption. I don't think folks understand just how many people and players are involved in such projects. Below the level of the major contractors are all the suppliers, and _their_ suppliers. Yes, SNC were the major contractor, but who supplied and/or installed the cable/wire? Who provided the materials for producing the wire/cable or devices for installing them? Which service installed them? Who did the environmental testing of the cables?

I'm not excusing anyone, but there are a whole lot of participants in this, and whenever you get something that big, something is bound to go wrong. Cripes, just _try_ coordinating a jam with 20 guitar players or deciding on what pizza or Chinese food to order if you have a group of 20 people. Now multiply that chaos by 5000x.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mhammer said:


> Cripes, just _try_ coordinating a jam with 20 guitar players or deciding on what pizza or Chinese food to order if you have a group of 20 people.


I'd choose to build the LRT over this.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

mhammer said:


> _try_ coordinating a jam with 20 guitar players


They need to follow a book with dots.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

mhammer said:


> Cripes, just _try_ coordinating a jam with 20 guitar players or deciding on what pizza or Chinese food to order if you have a group of 20 people. Now multiply that chaos by 5000x.


Chinese food is easy for 20 people just order 4 diner for 6. With extra rice.









Pizza is even easier. Three 18" house specials, 3 18" meat lovers, 2 18" with hamburger and Canadian Bacon, 1 med Hawaiian and in this day and age, 1 small vegetarian.....no cheese. If people want something different they can get their own.
As far as controlling the bitching goes, not my job; I just ride the ones here. They seem to do an OK job. So did the Skytrain when I occasionally rode it back in 1993. The cable breaking, shit happens.....doesn't matter how old it is, nothing you can do about it. Not too sure about Ottawa but around here, for various reasons, people get struck by trains. That stops things for quite a while and it takes a bit of time for them to get buses going.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

laristotle said:


> They need to follow a book with dots.


Which book?


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Electraglide said:


> Which book?


Like in the vid.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

oldjoat said:


> council approved the "ride for free" new years eve
> leave your car at home , experience the LRT for free on new years eve .
> 
> the brand new system broke down early in the evening for 30 minutes
> ...


Traffic is so much worse now since the launch of the LRT. More people are driving now that the system is so unreliable.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

I think the all-or-nothing approach to ditching almost all the buses for the LRT service was a disaster in wait. They should have taken a more prudent approach and phased out bus service over a longer period. I know there were reason for it, but in hindsight it was a mistake. If you are going to cut corners on testing, you better be confident or a good back up plan. They had neither.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

"_Traffic is so much worse now since the launch of the LRT. More people are driving now that the system is so unreliable_."

For now. The system is "so unreliable", compared to expectations, but will not stay that way forever. The trick will be persuading commuters to revert back to public transit once they've gotten accustomed to driving. Admittedly, that's one tough row to hoe during the winter months, when patience in sub-zero temperatures is in short supply, and bulky train/bus riders in parkas make for less capacity.

Citizens, like any consumer, have to learn to distinguish between the ad copy coming out of the manufacturer's and politicians' mouths, and the actual product. If you read research grant proposals, you'd think that cancer, Alzheimer's, muscular dystrophy, schizophrenia, and a host of other things, would have been cured several times over by now. And you'd think that every drive pedal that changed a single capacitor value on what's basically a Tube Screamer had invented a wholly new approach to overdrive. But, like Charlie Brown trying to kick the ball, we are lured and persuaded by the promises, only to get upset when Lucy pulls the ball away. Again, and again, and again.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> "_Traffic is so much worse now since the launch of the LRT. More people are driving now that the system is so unreliable_."
> 
> For now. The system is "so unreliable", compared to expectations, but will not stay that way forever. The trick will be persuading commuters to revert back to public transit once they've gotten accustomed to driving. Admittedly, that's one tough row to hoe during the winter months, when patience in sub-zero temperatures is in short supply, and bulky train/bus riders in parkas make for less capacity.
> 
> Citizens, like any consumer, have to learn to distinguish between the ad copy coming out of the manufacturer's and politicians' mouths, and the actual product. If you read research grant proposals, you'd think that cancer, Alzheimer's, muscular dystrophy, schizophrenia, and a host of other things, would have been cured several times over by now. And you'd think that every drive pedal that changed a single capacitor value on what's basically a Tube Screamer had invented a wholly new approach to overdrive. But, like Charlie Brown trying to kick the ball, we are lured and persuaded by the promises, only to get upset when Lucy pulls the ball away. Again, and again, and again.


Shouldn't take any longer to sort out than Phoenix did


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

laristotle said:


> Like in the vid.
> 
> View attachment 289922


Ok, I'll watch the vid. The book doesn't have dots. The books I use have dots. Works for me. And to go with the books with dots I'd like to have Dad's guitar in a right handed version.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

allthumbs56 said:


> Shouldn't take any longer to sort out than Phoenix did


The more players, the longer the tune. My kid is working on the restoration of the building where the Privy Council Office is situated, facing the War Memorial. The _inside _of the building belongs to "the Parliamentary Precinct". The _outside_ of the building belongs to, and falls under the jurisdiction of, the National Capitol Commission. What lies beyond the outside of the building, however, belongs to the city, and to a lesser extent the merchants association of the street it's on. Getting anything done requires the cooperation of multiple layers of governance. One can only begin to imagine just how many players are involved in the LRT.

You don't want to get me started on Phoenix, Chris. Or...maybe you did.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

LRT systems work in a lot of places around the world so why not in Ottawa? BART and MUNI work, the Skytrain and the C Train work. Edmonton's work.
Toss in subway systems and that's a lot.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

"Works" is a relative term. BART was way behind schedule and went overbudget. C-train used to snag people with their doors when it was cold out. And Skytrain (SNC project) also has ongoing problems in the cold and snow. Just had problems last week with the oldest system (35 years old now - you think they would have sorted it out by now).



mhammer said:


> Can someone point me to a major infrastructure project that worked just fine on day 1? The bitching here, while entirely justified exasperation about what's not working, and how it buggers up your own life, seems to suggest that somewhere out there are similar major projects that ran absolutely smoothly right out of the gate, and use it as a basis for presuming corruption. I don't think folks understand just how many people and players are involved in such projects. Below the level of the major contractors are all the suppliers, and _their_ suppliers. Yes, SNC were the major contractor, but who supplied and/or installed the cable/wire? Who provided the materials for producing the wire/cable or devices for installing them? Which service installed them? Who did the environmental testing of the cables?
> 
> I'm not excusing anyone, but there are a whole lot of participants in this, and whenever you get something that big, something is bound to go wrong. Cripes, just _try_ coordinating a jam with 20 guitar players or deciding on what pizza or Chinese food to order if you have a group of 20 people. Now multiply that chaos by 5000x.


Sure, large projects are rife with complication and difficulties. If it was easy, everyone would do it.

But politically-driven projects seem to be the worst of the worst. IME, private industry is much better at getting these things done - and is why many govts are opting towards partnerships with private industry for large-scale projects (called PPP's out here). 

In private industry, a budget is a budget and a deadline is a deadline (quite often with bonus' if the project is completed early. Nothing motivates private industry like a bonus). In govt projects, budgets and deadlines are like suggestions or starting points, with more negotiation to follow when things go sideways.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> "Works" is a relative term. BART was way behind schedule and went overbudget. C-train used to snag people with their doors when it was cold out. And Skytrain (SNC project) also has ongoing problems in the cold and snow. Just had problems last week with the oldest system (35 years old now - you think they would have sorted it out by now).


BART has been running for 40+ years. MUNI for more than 100. Skytrain for 35 years and the C Train for almost 40. The West Coast Express, tho limited, for 25 years. Edmonton LRT for 40+ years. I'd say they work. As for problems with cold and snow they still have those on the Rogers pass. BTW C Train doors snag people when it's warm out too and so do the rear doors of most of the buses. The systems still work. Sounds like for some reason Ottawa's system doesn't work.....or at least to some people's satisfaction. Maybe it's just an Ottawa thing.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The "problems" with Ottawa's LRT, when they crop up, are always of a different nature from each other. The most recent uproar stemmed from a cable that snapped. Previous issues stemmed from doors being held open, tracks being problematic, and software having issues. Each of them are connected with different services/suppliers. That's not to brush any of it off as negligible, but fundamentally it's a game of whack-a-mole, such that there is no real point where one can declare with confidence that it's going to be problem-free from now on.

As for the private/public thing High/Deaf raises, who do you think built these projects? Governments put out requests for proposals, eventually call for tenders, and private companies bid. Governments budget for what they think it ought to cost. They may go with the lowest bid, or get raked over the coals for going with something pricier than the lowest bid because they had (potentially misplaced) confidence in the bidder/service-provider, based on track record. Lowest bids can be anything from complete fictions (much like air ticket prices that don't include this, that, and the other fee/surcharge), to simple wishful thinking. Working on a government infrastructure project, but for a private-sector contractor, my son gripes to me about BOTH government officials who make unrealistic post-contract requests, and subcontractors who provide unrealistic bargain-basement bids that will simply not deliver as pitched. The stupidity is in great abundance and spread out over a large swathe of all those people who think they're doing the right and conscienable thing, no matter who they work for.

If there is a weak link in all of this, I think it is that, by assuming the details will all be anticipated and taken care of by conscientious and knowledgeable professionals in the private sector, there may not be enough resident expertise within governments to assess the realism and quality of those proposals/bids offered up. I'm not saying the officials are stupid or ignorant, but no municipal, provincial, or federal government retains the entire expertise required to do everything BUT the labour involved. And citizens seem to want it that way. "Why can't it be privatized, or done by the private sector?" is regularly heard. On the surface, that makes perfect sense.

But here's an example of why it doesn't always work. The federal government runs a LOT of public opinion surveys, whether to find out if a program is working as intended, whether citizens prefer policy option A over B, or what the public's priorities are. And because departments don't maintain their own individual specialized public-opinion research teams, they contract out to the private sector. There's a call for bids, and a pick is made. The opinion-research firm contracted with does some consulting with the department (though generally not very far down the hierarchy), tends to assign their very best undergrads to it, designs a survey, carries it out, and supplies a shallow report back to the department, that has lots of groovy graphics for your Powerpoint presentation, but not much meat for the money. The requesting department was not in a strong position to decide whose bid was truly best, and Public Works was also not in a position to decide if the winning bid was going to truly address the requesting department's needs. The Auditor General, in a report about a decade back, found that the entire system was weak and there seemed to be nothing in place to determine if contracting departments were actually getting their money's worth (and many weren't). Again, departmental folks didn't have enough expertise or capacity to do it themselves, and by consequence, not enough expertise to adequately separate the wheat from the chaff. And Public Works, as the agency handling bigger-ticket purchases, didn't have the requisite expertise either. * IF* it was the case that a department could actually design and run the thing themselves, but simply decided to pay someone to do the low-level stuff so their expertise could be allocated to something more pressing, that would be one thing. But when the mindset is "We're not actually going to pay for this sort of ongoing capacity ourselves. We'll contract out, and rely on _*their*_ judgment.", you run a very high risk of the contracted provider not really understanding your needs, not adequately communicating why they're changing what they're changing, and perhaps more importantly, not thinking about your long-term needs. And remember, their judgment is also influenced by anticipated profitability, which can be a serious contaminant of reasoning. I'm sure anyone who has relied on a contractor for home renovations has experienced this very thing.

So, to sum, my position here is that if a public institution relies _too much_ on the expertise of private-sector providers, and can't furnish enough expertise internally, there is a higher risk of problems occurring....just like Ottawans are finding out.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> *So, to sum, my position here is that if a public institution relies too much on the expertise of private-sector providers, and can't furnish enough expertise internally, there is a higher risk of problems occurring....just like Ottawans are finding out*.


My experience is somewhat the opposite. The government is so concerned about what they're getting that they spell out the deliverable and all it's parameters far too precisely. If they acted like a customer and spelled out their needs and left the provider to determine the rest they'd all be better off. Problems arrive when the RFQ not only details what is needed but how the provider is going to do it's job as well. Then there are the "soft" requirements - satisfying political objectives (locales, racial, gender requirements, etc).

** edit ** Don't misunderstand me, this behaviour is not restricted to government. My Maggs loves to Google her ailments before going to the doctor. It's not unusual for her to not only tell the doctor what's wrong with her but how she should be treated as well. Homeowners hire contractors and then look over their shoulders telling them how to do their jobs (that's mostly a guy thing I think)


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I think we probably agree more than you think we do. The public sector requester can spell out the deliverables in as much detail as they want to, but if they don't have the internal expertise to assess whether they are achievable within budget, or achievable at ANY budget, then they're simply not going to get what they want and need from the private-sector contractor. Your wife is certainly smart to go to her doctor with a _bit_ of information, and inquire if those symptoms _could_ be X or Y and ask her doctor what she/he thinks. That's a whole lot better than walking in declaring "I don't feel so good", and expecting the physician to engage in 20 questions or more to find out just what the heck prompted the visit. But unless she's a doctor herself, she should leave the diagnosis up to the professional. Her role is to simply provide good and through information so the professional can do their best job.

Ultimately, it's a matter of balance. You gotta start from somewhere, and know enough to have somewhere to start from, so you you can't enter into a contracting relationship completely naive and ignorant. But you also gotta be consultative, and work with people. I'm reminded of the frugal/cheap grandmother on the Indo-British comedy show _Goodness Gracious Me_, who would always be scandalized by the cost of something, declaring "That? I could make that at home, for nothing. All I need is a little aubergine." If you have the capacity to do it all yourself, but simply wish to avail yourself of someone else's labour, then you have the right to tell them how to do it. Not much different than telling your 16 year-old with a learner's permit "Okay, now turn here. Slow down as you approach the intersection." The problem is when you don't have the expertise or capacity to provide detailed instruction.

Did the Ottawa city managers know enough about rail-based transit systems intended to operate in this climate in order to ask all the right questions up front? My sense is "No". Did they consult with anyone who would be their intervenor and knew enough to be able to ask all the right questions on their behalf? I have no idea, but the result suggests "No" as well.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

well, they're at it agin .
who'da thought that it would get cold in Ottawa ?
down to 10 LRT units (from the minimum 13 required ) due to "unforeseen problems with the cold conditions".

jam packed stations , too few buses to pickup the stranded rush hour commuters .
20-30 minute delays .... ahhh isn't progress wonderful !

just glad that I drive to where I need to go , and get there ON time.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

now down to 8 of 13 as of this morning ...


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

oldjoat said:


> now down to 8 of 13 as of this morning ...


All they have is 13 cars? Hell, the little trains in Stanley Park had/have more than that.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Not 13 _cars_, but 13 _trains_. Remember, they're running closely spaced, in two directions. Train A arrives, loads up and moves on, train B comes 3 minutes later, etc.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

mhammer said:


> Can someone point me to a major infrastructure project that worked just fine on day 1? The bitching here, while entirely justified exasperation about what's not working, and how it buggers up your own life, seems to suggest that somewhere out there are similar major projects that ran absolutely smoothly right out of the gate, and use it as a basis for presuming corruption. I don't think folks understand just how many people and players are involved in such projects. Below the level of the major contractors are all the suppliers, and _their_ suppliers. Yes, SNC were the major contractor, but who supplied and/or installed the cable/wire? Who provided the materials for producing the wire/cable or devices for installing them? Which service installed them? Who did the environmental testing of the cables?
> 
> I'm not excusing anyone, but there are a whole lot of participants in this, and whenever you get something that big, something is bound to go wrong. Cripes, just _try_ coordinating a jam with 20 guitar players or deciding on what pizza or Chinese food to order if you have a group of 20 people. Now multiply that chaos by 5000x.



Confederation Bridge
Majority of ferry services
TransCanada
3G to LTE
New Champlain Bridge in Montreal


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Latest excuse - the train wheels are no longer round and have flat spots on them. They have to take them out of service to machine the wheels round again. /facepalm


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Chinese metal?


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

I see a pedestrian was run over by the LRT in Kitchener recently. A whole new can of worms. Pedestrians and railway tracks and trains in the core of the city.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

mhammer said:


> Not 13 _cars_, but 13 _trains_. Remember, they're running closely spaced, in two directions. Train A arrives, loads up and moves on, train B comes 3 minutes later, etc.


13 trains makes more sense. Here I think it's between 16 and 20 on both lines depending on what time it is. After 8 pm it drops from a train every 10 minutes to one every 15 minutes. Doesn't sound like much except for the downtown core where both lines use the same tracks. There the trains are constant in both directions and about 5 minutes apart. Not too sure what's going to happen when they add another line. Everything works quite smoothly and if there's a hang up there's buses to get around the problem. If the regular buses can't handle things they put on extra buses. Every LRT station is a bus stop. If a train breaks down they just put on another train......they have enough.


ZeroGravity said:


> Latest excuse - the train wheels are no longer round and have flat spots on them. They have to take them out of service to machine the wheels round again. /facepalm


It happens on the big guys so why not LRTs. Same as brake drums especially on semis. They get out of round.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

How it's done.




Another thing they do around here is track grinding. 


1SweetRide said:


> Confederation Bridge
> Majority of ferry services
> TransCanada
> 3G to LTE
> New Champlain Bridge in Montreal


3G to LTE? What's that, a ring road around Ottawa?


Distortion said:


> I see a pedestrian was run over by the LRT in Kitchener recently. A whole new can of worms. Pedestrians and railway tracks and trains in the core of the city.


Toss in cars and trucks too. This happens all the time. 








The arm comes down on the roof of the car. Around here there are level crossing with both LRT and regular train tracks.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

the consortium is being PAID to do regular maintenance ... but they aren't .
they are being PAID to routinely check the system for potential problems ... they aren't.

they are supposed to have spare (backup) trains ready to roll if one goes down ... nope on that too.

heaters for the "track switches" aren't working well either ... and they were warned about it earlier in the season.

flat spots on wheels that are 4 months old ... and no one noticed till rush hour in the morning.

platforms are too small for the rush hour crowds
steps are slippery during the cold / wet weather at the stations
not enough strap handles for passengers ( none were installed at first )


"bloody amateurs" keeps coming to mind .


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Electraglide said:


> It happens on the big guys so why not LRTs. Same as brake drums especially on semis. They get out of round.


I don't doubt that this is a legitimate maintenance thing, what I don't get is after only 4 months of service and that there should be a suitable maintenance plan in place that doesn't significantly reduce your service. 

I'll see if I can get more info. My niece's husband is a civil engineer and just moved from CN to SNC to work on phase 2. Maybe he has some insight.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

ZeroGravity said:


> I don't doubt that this is a legitimate maintenance thing, what I don't get is after only 4 months of service and that there should be a suitable maintenance plan in place that doesn't significantly reduce your service.
> 
> I'll see if I can get more info. My niece's husband is a civil engineer and just moved from CN to SNC to work on phase 2. Maybe he has some insight.


Was this new equipment or used? Not too sure when it has to be done so maybe 4 months is the norm. I think it would have to do more with the mileage than time. BTW, how long has Ottawa's LRT been going? 4 months? You would figure that they would have enough equipment around that they could pull a car or a complete train and replace it too keep things running 'normally'.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

oldjoat said:


> the consortium is being PAID to do regular maintenance ... but they aren't .
> they are being PAID to routinely check the system for potential problems ... they aren't.
> 
> they are supposed to have spare (backup) trains ready to roll if one goes down ... nope on that too.
> ...


Not enough strap handles! Oh No Mr. Bill. Around here short people get shafted when it comes to strap handles. Slippery steps? Awe. Too small platforms? Oh dear. If they are like around here there's only a certain amount of space you have to work with. I can see flat spots on wheels after 4 months old. Same with no one noticing.....how exactly to you check? Sounds like it's a new system and they are still getting the bugs out.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

@Electraglide all good questions but this is all new equipment and 4 months may be the service interval of the steel wheels, but that sounds low for both time and distance to me. From what I just gleaned from the news this is an issue with the Rideau Transit Group, who built and runs it


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

Electraglide said:


> You would figure that they would have enough equipment around that they could pull a car or a complete train and replace it too keep things running 'normally'.


yeah ... any normal person would consider this 

supposed to have 14 "ready to go" ... 13 on line and a spare to jump in.
so we're down 2 , then 3 , then 5 (so only 8 running during rush hour) and back up 2 after the rush hour to 10 .

2 trains out of commission on new years eve ( dirt on the train connectors to the overhead wires )
then the overhead power wires snapped (ground the whole system to a halt for 18 hours )

kinda feels like a submarine with a screen door installed 
every time they bail it out , it sinks again.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

ZeroGravity said:


> @Electraglide all good questions but this is all new equipment and 4 months may be the service interval of the steel wheels, but that sounds low for both time and distance to me. From what I just gleaned from the news this is an issue with the Rideau Transit Group, who built and runs it


You have to figure these trains put a fair bit of distance each day at a high rate of speed both running and stopping. Each trip a train starts and stops more than 30 times....stations and if it's like here level crossings at times. Because it's a short line lets say each train does what 3 round trips an hr. 3X30x20 is what more than 1800 stops in a day.....probably a lot more unless they go to full brake for each stop. So it's been running for 4 months, let's say 120 days so 120x1800 is????? 216,000 stops. Throw in the weight of the cars and the little jolts everytime you hit a join and that will put flatspots on the wheels. And that's all without lubrication between track and wheel. That's per wheel.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

I guess I am thinking of freight trains that run at speed, fully loaded for thousands of kilomtres at a time but they don't have to endure the stress of stops and starts nearly as often. The few details that keep coming out is that this is and some of the other problems are pretty much a maintenance, or lack there of, issue by RTG.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

ZeroGravity said:


> I guess I am thinking of freight trains that run at speed, fully loaded for thousands of kilomtres at a time but they don't have to endure the stress of stops and starts nearly as often. The few details that keep coming out is that this is and some of the other problems are pretty much a maintenance, or lack there of, issue by RTG.


It's the hard stop and slide that does it. And the weight it's trying to stop. Truing the wheels is a maintenance thing, same as grinding the track.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

There are plenty of videos on turning wheels and grinding track on Youtube. It looks like, at the least the few that I watched, that it is a fairly major operation as it involves removing the wheel-axle assemble from the trucks to machine them, not an in-place operation. It sure looks like it is a well-known maintenance thing that RTG has ignored or missed.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

I posted a video of the wheel machine......done on the car. Probably takes the car out for a while. I think here they replace the trucks and then grind the wheels. A few of the Maintenence yards have trucks with wheels waiting. Doesn't take the car out as long. From what I've seen they have quite a few 4 car trains just waiting. If the swap out a car it's no big deal. Grinding track here is done in sections. They either run both trains on one section of track or shut it down between stations and buss people around.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

the tracks are "seamlessly welded" (no joint / cracks unless the welds break ... and they did )
they only run at 60 - 80 KPH ( and slower coming into / out of stations ) so very little sliding 
no level crossings (yet) , have their own dedicated (isolated) tracks and tunnels .

the "repair stations" ????? who would have thought LRT trains need repairs.
spares ? ... but it's brand new ! 

track maintenance happens at night when the system closes between midnight and 5 AM ... 
oh wait , they're sleeping at that time , unless something actually broke during the day.

just one big oval ( and pretty well impossible to to run 2 on the same remaining track section ... )
that would involve some "system programming" to control the trains to stop/ wait/ and allow only one train / direction on the track section at a time 

at 5-7 minutes between trains , there isn't time to switch tracks without big delays while switching directions

designed by a person with an oval train set in his basement ...


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Electraglide said:


> I posted a video of the wheel machine......done on the car. Probably takes the car out for a while. I think here they replace the trucks and then grind the wheels. A few of the Maintenence yards have trucks with wheels waiting. Doesn't take the car out as long.  From what I've seen they have quite a few 4 car trains just waiting. If the swap out a car it's no big deal. Grinding track here is done in sections. They either run both trains on one section of track or shut it down between stations and buss people around.


 I didn't watch that one the first pass through the thread and the first few videos I saw were all off-train maintenance. So cool and makes total sense that the railway industry would have operations to minimize the time trains are offline.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> It's the hard stop and slide that does it. And the weight it's trying to stop. Truing the wheels is a maintenance thing, same as grinding the track.


I get that, but it's not like there are tens of thousands of subway cars and street cars that are equipped with steel wheels and running on steel tracks that make frequent starts and stops day in and day out. The concept is not ground breaking unless they've chosen to use new/odd/cheaper materials for the components. Perhaps they are vegan wheels?


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

allthumbs56 said:


> I get that, but it's not like there are tens of thousands of subway cars and street cars that are equipped with steel wheels and running on steel tracks that make frequent starts and stops day in and day out. The concept is not ground breaking unless they've chosen to use new/odd/cheaper materials for the components. Perhaps they are vegan wheels?


It may not be the materials used, rather they haven't been serviced at the prescribed intervals, which is what it sounds like.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

ZeroGravity said:


> It may not be the materials used, rather they haven't been serviced at the prescribed intervals, which is what it sounds like.


4 months in. What possible servicing could one imagine that would include the removal/truing of train wheels already? As has been said before, dealing with a problem like this is not routine maintenance - those trucks and wheels must weigh tons upon tons and require special equipment and weeks of downtime to service out-of-round wheels.

From the L.A. MetroNews Blog:

_"Metro rail wheels can travel as far as 700,000 miles before they need to be replaced. Good thing because changing the wheels on a single rail car can take more than a week, depending on the design of the car."_​
How do they do that? Change a flat on a steel train wheel - The Source


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

The wheels, and most likely many more parts, were probably sourced from China.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

More LRT mess for phase 2. SNC-Lavalin should be ejected from Trillium Line bid: evaluation team | CBC News


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

oldjoat said:


> the tracks are "seamlessly welded" (no joint / cracks unless the welds break ... and they did )
> they only run at 60 - 80 KPH ( and slower coming into / out of stations ) so very little sliding
> no level crossings (yet) , have their own dedicated (isolated) tracks and tunnels .
> 
> ...


Not being a smart ass but do you ride the LRT much.....like at least twice a day or are you just basing what you are saying on something you read. You can feel some of the welds and also the switches. They slide, a lot. From the sounds of it Ottawa should shut down their LRT system until they can get someone who knows how to run one. Hopefully, tho I doubt it, Ottawa's system is being paid for out of the Ottawa municipal budget and not out of Canada's pocket.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> 4 months in. What possible servicing could one imagine that would include the removal/truing of train wheels already? As has been said before, dealing with a problem like this is not routine maintenance - those trucks and wheels must weigh tons upon tons and require special equipment and weeks of downtime to service out-of-round wheels.
> 
> From the L.A. MetroNews Blog:
> 
> ...


There's a difference between replacing wheels and truing them. That is routine maintenance. As far as servicing out of round wheels, it doesn't take that long, relatively speaking. Sounds like they are just doing regular maintenance...."4 months in".


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> There's a difference between replacing wheels and truing them. That is routine maintenance. As far as servicing out of round wheels, it doesn't take that long, relatively speaking. Sounds like they are just doing regular maintenance...."4 months in".


Did you read the attached article? It takes a week to do one car and the L.A. Metro gets 700,000 miles out of a wheel on average.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> Did you read the attached article? It takes a week to do one car and the L.A. Metro gets 700,000 miles out of a wheel on average.


Before they have to be replaced. "Metro rail wheels can travel as far as 700,000 miles before they need to be replaced." and "Newer light-rail cars — the AnsaldoBreda P2550 cars that run on the Gold Line — have steel tires that can be removed while still on the car. This takes only about one day and is, obviously, a huge labor saving enhancement."
This is truing up a wheel on the car.








You don't have to take the wheel off......it's just normal maintenance and the wheels get flat spots all the time. So yeah, I read the whole article and not just skipped around. The Stanray® Underfloor Wheel Truing Machine is one way to do it.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> Before they have to be replaced. "Metro rail wheels can travel as far as 700,000 miles before they need to be replaced." and "Newer light-rail cars — the AnsaldoBreda P2550 cars that run on the Gold Line — have steel tires that can be removed while still on the car. This takes only about one day and is, obviously, a huge labor saving enhancement."
> This is truing up a wheel on the car.
> 
> 
> ...


So just so I understand, your position is that there's nothing wrong with the Ottawa LRT and it's just business as usual?


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> So just so I understand, your position is that there's nothing wrong with the Ottawa LRT and it's just business as usual?


Aside from not haveing a maintenance program and probably using my tax dollars to fix their screw ups, the Ottawa LRT system is just what Ottawa needs. And to understand your position, it says you live in Niagara which, if I remember my Canadian social studies from the early 60's, is a fair distance from Ottawa. Do you ride the Ottawa system much? And, are you saying that a regular maintenance program is a bad thing? Kind of a wait until it breaks outlook?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Occam's razor. SNC Lavalin are holding Ottawa hostage until the fine is reduced and they get their DPA. KISS principle.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

It was SNC-L that was on the project, after all.


ZeroGravity said:


> More LRT mess for phase 2. SNC-Lavalin should be ejected from Trillium Line bid: evaluation team | CBC News


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

laristotle said:


> It was SNC-L that was on the project, after all.


It is incredulous that they failed the technical evaluations more than once, underbid by leaving out fundamental pieces (who knew trains needed control systems) and not knowing others (Trillium line is an extension of the existing O-train line with diesel trains not electric) and still were chosen. It's so bad that it is hard to comprehend the lack of oversight by the City and city council other than gross negligence and/or wrongdoing by the transport committee, the Mayor and the evaluation committee (a lawyer, a finance person, and a procurement officer), ignoring the technical committee's evaluation.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

As we have learned, SNC-L has a tight political connection in Ottawa.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

You can't blame the contractors. They are just playing the game and making as much money as possible, either for themselves or the shareholders. It's called capitalism, look it up.

It's the spec writers that need to be blamed. Govt and crown corporations are horrible at this (and thus the pic I posted a couple pages ago). In my experience, technical ability no longer leads to promotions. The path to get ahead was kissing ass, being political, playing _that_ game. But guess what? The best ass-kissers, the ones who move on up, can't write a technical spec to save their lives. So we end up with train systems without controls or substations without cable trenches or bridges without railings.

No one's to blame except for those of us who still support this way of doing things. You'd think in the long run those doofus' writing the tech that lead to the mistakes would be called out on it, maybe reprimanded or fired ------ instead of just being given more promotions, moving higher and promoting more ass-kissers below them. Pathetic.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> Aside from not haveing a maintenance program and probably using my tax dollars to fix their screw ups, the Ottawa LRT system is just what Ottawa needs. And to understand your position, it says you live in Niagara which, if I remember my Canadian social studies from the early 60's, is a fair distance from Ottawa. Do you ride the Ottawa system much? And, are you saying that a regular maintenance program is a bad thing? Kind of a wait until it breaks outlook?


No, what I am saying is that wheels going out of round within four months is not acceptable. Brief research indicates that this is not normal.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> No, what I am saying is that wheels going out of round within four months is not acceptable. Brief research indicates that this is not normal.


Flat spots can happen at any time and they grow. The LA system has 2800 or so wheels. Calgary has at least that many if not more. Some of those, for what ever reason are going to go out of round. They have to be replaced. The ones with flats pots, that can lead to a rough ride, happen all the time.....they can be ground. It might not be normal or acceptable but it happens. Who's to say what's normal and acceptable anyway. Especially if the spare wheels on axles sit around for a while.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

"There [are] flat spots appearing on the wheels, so they're not perfectly round," Councillor Allan Hubley told The Rob Snow Show on 1310 NEWS. "[Rideau Transit Group] has to run these trains through what's called a lathe, that rounds out the wheels again."

"They're having problems with getting the work done that they were told ahead of time had to be part of the maintenance program," Hubley said.

Hubley said that Rideau Transit Maintenance, the company that maintains the light rail line for the city, has not provided an explanation for why the train's wheels are no longer round, but he hopes they'll have more details by Thursday.

This was Thursday

When LRT train wheels don't turn, they drag.

It's an issue known as wheel flats and it's something crews with Rideau Transit Maintenance are supposed to be keeping a close eye on.

The city blamed wheel flats as the main reason OC Transpo couldn't run enough trains during rush hour this week.

The chair of Ottawa's transit commission, Coun. Allan Hubley, said Tuesday he doesn't believe Rideau Transit Maintenance has been doing a thorough enough job watching for flats.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

From the sounds of it Ottawa is stuck with this for the next 30 years. 
Maintenance company falling down on the job: Transit chair | CBC News


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

allthumbs56 said:


> No, what I am saying is that wheels going out of round within four months is not acceptable. Brief research indicates that this is not normal.


Out of interest, not trying to say you are wrong, but I have looked and cannot find a maintenance interval in time or km for wheel resurfacing other than the article that you posted that stated "replacement" on a rail system that operates in a very different environment. Some quick math puts the mileage around 60K with about 62K stop/start cycles in regular service, during fall-winter weather and doesn't include any testing done before the opening. Is this unreasonable, I can't find anything that says it is or isn't. Anything not properly inspected and maintained is going to wear faster than it should. I personally do not think that this is a materials problem with Alstom trains, because they make a lot and they are widely used. I believe it is an operations/maintenance causing premature wear by an unqualified operater (RTG - RTM)


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Electraglide said:


> From the sounds of it Ottawa is stuck with this for the next 30 years.
> Maintenance company falling down on the job: Transit chair | CBC News


I haven't seen the outcome, but part of yesterday's "Emergency Transit Meeting" at city council had some asking the terms to terminate RTG's plum contract. Apparently those parts of the documents with respect to the termination were heavily redacted when provided to Councillors.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

ZeroGravity said:


> I haven't seen the outcome, but part of yesterday's "Emergency Transit Meeting" at city council had some asking the terms to terminate RTG's plum contract. Apparently those parts of the documents with respect to the termination were heavily redacted when provided to Councillors.


No wonder shares in Unilever jumped.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Electraglide said:


> The chair of Ottawa's transit commission, Coun. Allan Hubley, said Tuesday he doesn't believe Rideau Transit Maintenance has been doing a thorough enough job watching for flats.


I suspect that will change now.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

mhammer said:


> I suspect that will change now.


What, RTM will start doing their jobs or the good Coun. will say that he now believes they are doing a good enough job watching for flats. If RTM hasn't been looking for flats and doing other maintanence things then someone somewhere along the way is going to have to foot the bill for more equipment and space and training etc.. I wonder if I can trade my Kraft Food shares for more Unilever shares.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

They should rename NoRT


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Electraglide said:


> From the sounds of it Ottawa is stuck with this for the next 30 years.
> Maintenance company falling down on the job: Transit chair | CBC News


_Hubley said he's fully aware of the frustration boiling over among passengers, and assured them he's feeling it himself.

"I don't know the word but I'm going to have to invent one because there is really no good description of how upset I am about this," he said._


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> Flat spots can happen at any time and they grow. The LA system has 2800 or so wheels. Calgary has at least that many if not more. Some of those, for what ever reason are going to go out of round. They have to be replaced. The ones with flats pots, that can lead to a rough ride, happen all the time.....they can be ground. It might not be normal or acceptable but it happens. *Who's to say what's normal and acceptable anyway*. Especially if the spare wheels on axles sit around for a while.


There is a whole discipline focused on Maintenance Management. I spent 15 years designing software specifically helping professionals keep their machines running.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

Electraglide said:


> Not being a smart ass but do you ride the LRT much.... From the sounds of it Ottawa should shut down their LRT system until they can get someone who knows how to run one.


nah , wouldn't go near it ... it only goes downtown for 1/2 the city ( east side to the center and a bit ) and I NEVER go downtown.
I'm out the west end and there is no LRT , or much of any bus service anymore.
but from the nightly news from real riders , it s#cks donkey balls ( even the "LRT ambassadors " call it pathetic )
even city council is steamed over the lack of maintenance and lack of any action on the existing known problems.

they are now bringing in EXPERTS from the UK to sort out the problems 
more $$$$ and I wonder who will foot the bill?

and YES 1/3 came from the feds , 1/3 from the province and 1/3 from the "revenue tools" in ottawa 
geee , so I pay 1/3 to the feds,/ 1/3 to the province , and they nail me 1/3 on my city taxes ... one pocket 
but I have to thank you for "chipping in " to help pay for this fiasco ( fed side )

heads should roll for this disaster ... but who am I kidding , the idiots responsible will just get a promotion and a pay raise.

latest news is that it will take 1 week for each car to get the wheels back in shape ( no grinding / truing facilities here )

so in the meantime , I'll continue to turn the key on my beater and drive anywhere I want to go, and on my time schedule.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> There is a whole discipline focused on Maintenance Management. I spent 15 years designing software specifically helping professionals keep their machines running.


What kind of machines? I've spent almost 50 years doing maintenance on all sorts of machinery, no software involved, just various tools of the trade and sometimes a calendar. I have yet to see software replace eyes and ears when it comes to something like this. Or replace a properly maintained maintenance book and operating the machine either. On the big machinery one book per machine. #1 rule, have a maintenance program. 
I looked up maintenance management and saw that there are actual certificates you can get......nothing on working on actual machines tho.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> What kind of machines? I've spent almost 50 years doing maintenance on all sorts of machinery, no software involved, just various tools of the trade and sometimes a calendar. I have yet to see software replace eyes and ears when it comes to something like this. Or replace a properly maintained maintenance book and operating the machine either. On the big machinery one book per machine. #1 rule, have a maintenance program.
> I looked up maintenance management and saw that there are actual certificates you can get......nothing on working on actual machines tho.


Think bigger. I left the company in 2001 but they're still around:

Invensys History - Schneider Electric

I didn't turn a wrench but Asset Management (physical) was something I was pretty good at.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

I said before there had to be bribes and payoffs from SNC. Tonight on CBC Ottawa news recently discovered documents show how SNC fail the bidding, left out all sorts of crucial infrastructure etc. but still got recommended by the bid committee. This was a $1.3 billion dollar contract. The councilors that voted never knew about the skullduggery.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

SNC getting negative coverage from the CBC!?
Wonder how many lobbyists are pounding on JT's door about now.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

laristotle said:


> SNC getting negative coverage from the CBC!?
> Wonder how many lobbyists are pounding on JT's door about now.


Wasn't Harper in power when all the papers were signed for the confederation line.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

SNC-Lavalin's 'poor' LRT bid should have been tossed, evaluators found | CBC News

Who took the bribes?


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Another thing I remember is something about the first tracks are diesel and the second line is electric so the trains aren't interchangeable and cannot run on each other's line.

Yesterday trains passing on separate lines reportedly hit each other.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

player99 said:


> Yesterday trains passing on separate lines reportedly hit each other.


Googled. Nothing.
Link?


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

laristotle said:


> Googled. Nothing.
> Link?


It was reported by the cbc reporter on the 6:00 news, but that was all she had on it was witness reports. Wait until tomorrow.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

player99 said:


> Another thing I remember is something about the first tracks are diesel and the second line is electric so the trains aren't interchangeable and cannot run on each other's line.
> 
> Yesterday trains passing on separate lines reportedly hit each other.


OC Transpo trains damaged in collision at Belfast Yard | CBC News
Seems they were both LRT trains and scrapped. Minor damage. They weren't on the main tracks.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

player99 said:


> SNC-Lavalin's 'poor' LRT bid should have been tossed, evaluators found | CBC News
> 
> Who took the bribes?


There don't have to be bribes, just a mistaken impression that "big" companies will _necessarily_ do a much better job. Just watch the Grammies tomorrow night, and you'll see awards given out on the basis of who has simply sold more, rather than artistic merit. Purchasing agents are no different than the rest of us; we're easily influenced by reputation and glitz.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

mhammer said:


> There don't have to be bribes, just a mistaken impression that "big" companies will _necessarily_ do a much better job. Just watch the Grammies tomorrow night, and you'll see awards given out on the basis of who has simply sold more, rather than artistic merit. Purchasing agents are no different than the rest of us; we're easily influenced by reputation and glitz.


They went to great lengths to get SNC the contract. Not the sort of things normally done. Plus there was $1.6 Billion dollars on the line, and SNC is known to operate in the bribe zone. The mayor of Ottawa acted so weird when the Chateau Laurier addition was being approved at the end it is very suspect. There is something rotten in Ottawa.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

awwww.
more trains down today just after the freezing rain started ( loss of power from overhead wires ) ... over an hour wait for replacement buses.
"one section of the system is down ,more details to follow" ... zzzzzzz
more "heated switches" failed to switch lines.

no response from city hall or LRT.

it is a mild winter here this year , what would be happening if we had a cold , snowy season like last year ?
any time anyone rides it , it's like a turn at the roulette wheel.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

player99 said:


> They went to great lengths to get SNC the contract. Not the sort of things normally done. Plus there was $1.6 Billion dollars on the line, and SNC is known to operate in the bribe zone. The mayor of Ottawa acted so weird when the Chateau Laurier addition was being approved at the end it is very suspect. There is something rotten in Ottawa.


Watson is bulletproof


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

1SweetRide said:


> Watson is bulletproof


Doesn't mean he isn't crooked.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

player99 said:


> Doesn't mean he isn't crooked.


There were many rumours surrounding his approval of the ugly, baby-shit coloured building that now blocks the view of parliament hill from the parkway.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

1SweetRide said:


> There were many rumours surrounding his approval of the ugly, baby-shit coloured building that now blocks the view of parliament hill from the parkway.


They haven't built it yet have they?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Electraglide said:


> Wasn't Harper in power when all the papers were signed for the confederation line.


What the fuck does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

Harper reduced CBC funding. The current Liberals put it right back - and then increased it (and the CBC is back begging for more welfare again).

No Conservative govt will ever be able to remove the welfare these corporations enjoy, it is too far entrenched. They would fail without it - so the Liberals keep giving it to them. Any wonder why the Liberals do so well out there and they Conservatives don't? It really isn't that hard to figure out, is it?

But yea, keep blaming Harper. Maybe if that don't work out for ya, you can start screaming at the bad orange man down south. Both are about as logical targets.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

This thread is about to be locked methinks


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

1SweetRide said:


> This thread is about to be locked methinks


Or moved to the political forum.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Bye Bye. 








conservatives.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

this LRT has been decades in the planning /making under all sorts of political leaders .
watson just got enough council support ( coerced/ bullied or any other words you want to use ) to get it funded 
numbers were fudged along the way to make it palatable to the masses and other levels of government. 

sadly, that's all politics and back room deals .

the real travesty is the actual system ... poorly planned , poorly executed, poorly built, poorly maintained ... 
toss in the "special wood" for the stations that was left out in the elements and was unusable (only to be replaced by new special wood)
the limited number of wash rooms ( only some stations got them ) 
the plans for "exceptional art for the walls " ( read expensive )
artsy fartsy station designs ( that just cost a whole lot more and don't add to the usefulness of anything)

oh look ! I'm standing in a station with no running trains , no info , late for work , freezing, but it's a beautiful design !

so we get put in the poor house for this disaster ( I believe WE will end up paying for all the mistakes regardless of who is at fault)
the "contracts" will surely shift the blame over to the city as soon as council accepted delivery .


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

oldjoat said:


> watson just got enough council support ( coerced/ bullied or any other words you want to use ) to get it funded
> numbers were fudged along the way to make it palatable to the masses and other levels of government.
> 
> sadly, that's all politics and back room deals .
> ...


There's washrooms in some of the stations.....well I'll be damned, AFAIK none of the stations here have washrooms. Not even handicapped. And art on the walls......here it's almost all free. Some people are good with rattle cans. We do have Buskers and at some stations you can save your soul if you're so inclined. 
"this LRT has been decades in the planning /making under all sorts of political leaders ." Are you saying that you can't put the blame on just one party?








So it sounds like the system it self is Ok, just needs a little upgrading. What it needs is some responsible group to run it. Someone who is not afraid to get in touch with other LRT/HRT/Subway etc. groups and ask for advice.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

oldjoat said:


> so we get put in the poor house for this disaster


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

Electraglide said:


> Are you saying that you can't put the blame on just one party?


no party had anything to do with it... strictly city council ( or mayor )

a "legacy" thing ... that'll keep costing more and more each year.

a p*ss poor design initially and an even poorer excuse for a "transit system"
"but we gotta have it to keep up with the rest of the big cities " they paid Cadillac prices for a Hugo system.
told to sign on the dotted line , no time to read the contract !
and council are "not allowed" to see the contract that they signed !.... 
and the same for phase 2 ... ????? am I the only one to question their reasoning?

if this was a car company selling cars , they would probably be sued back to the stone age. 
would any of us "just sign" a 1.2 Billion $ deal without reading the contract for details ?


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

so down to 8 trains from 13 again this afternoon 
4 out with flat spots on the wheels 
the rest down to debris on the tracks and computers resetting ( no know reason for it yet )

just more grovelling from city hall and the inept keepers of the holy rail.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

I heard a snip-it on CBC radio the other day something about how the city has been secretly paying for maintenance, I assume for repairs on the defects. I think everybody assumed the goofy problems were/are covered under warranty.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Isn’t it time to declare a loss and start the hell over?


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

instead of a watson legacy , might be his swan song .


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

I hope he goes. What he’s done to our roads is a travesty.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Watson used to be Oogly Woogly, a boy worm who lived in an apple.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

simple ... make him ride "public transit" everywhere he has to go this winter (to / from work and on ANY official business)
no taxis / limo/ carpooling / personal vehicle allowed . ( same for all council members )

no pay if they are late or don't show up for work. ... let them experience it first hand (and how bad service really is )

OW was on CJOH was at the corner of merivale and clyde back then (uncle chit and holly too) 
till it burned down and they moved to the downtown area.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

ANALYSIS: How SNC-Lavalin went from hero to zero to winning bidder for the Trillium Line contract

SORRY FOR THE DELAY: Inside Ottawa's $9-billion LRT disaster


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

1SweetRide said:


> I hope he goes. What he’s done to our roads is a travesty.


He hasn't done anything to our roads. But maybe that's the issue.

Personally, I'm unclear about which roads fall under municipal jurisdiction and which are provincial. E.g., are all non-highways within city limits necessarily municipal, and highways provincial?


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

mhammer said:


> He hasn't done anything to our roads. But maybe that's the issue.
> 
> Personally, I'm unclear about which roads fall under municipal jurisdiction and which are provincial. E.g., are all non-highways within city limits necessarily municipal, and highways provincial?


He has actually. It was he who decided to fill in all the bus stops and force traffic to halt behind buses every block. It was he who decided to take away many right turn options at traffic light controlled intersections. It was he who turned O'Connor into a travesty of a mix of car, bike and pedestrians with over $5M spent on little traffic lights for the bikes. I could go on...


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

please do ... he deserves all the credit for the fiascos

and elgin street is going to become another desolate sparks street in the near future.
they don't seem to learn from the mistakes of the past. "let's do it again ! " mentality.

simple ... just ban all powered vehicles of any sort within 20 blocks of parliament hill ... use just the LRT.
NO exceptions ....

let them ALL ride the LRT to their meetings / work / appointments / conferences ....
then walk the remainder of the way.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Certainly all those things took place under his administration, but I seriously doubt it was his unilateral decision. Remember that, even when Mayors and Ministers sign off on stuff, they do so based on the recommendations of the people tasked with doing the analysis, budgeting, and policy development. All of that might be done under vague directives from the top ("We need to find XX million in the budget for YY"), but the folks at the top are always too busy to have the specific ideas and policies. That doesn't mean the folks underneath who do the specific policy development have all the best info themselves.

I still think the LRT was launched prematurely, in response to public impatience. Much like the Phoenix pay system, once the decision is made to simply proceed and "we'll fix whatever problems occur as they occur", THAT's when the heartaches begin. Somewhere in politician school, they need to give lessons on how to get the public to wait a little longer, without being snooty, condescending, or mean-spirited about it. 

You know, the losing team in any pro sport championship is made up of seasoned pros on the team and coaching staff, with tons of experience and motivation, and a great game plan. And yet, they end up being the losing team for reasons they could not have predicted. I don't see why public initiatives should be completely immune to that sort of thing....unless we insist that the folks leading it have a demonstrable gift of prophecy before they are assigned the responsibility.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

unless it's LRT and Jim's baby 

"on time and on budget" 
"no time to stop and read the new second phase contract ... no debate ... just sign off so we can get on with it "

he is known as a "my way or the highway " kind of mayor ... and he has his band of "yes men" on a tight leash most of the time.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

.


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