# Live sound or, as a guitar player, what can I do about the band's overall live sound



## Sparrow Guitars (Mar 17, 2009)

Peter made a comment on the liquid metal thread that got me thinking, so I started a new thread.

Most of us have been to see a band that sounded phenomenal live. Their sound man was on top of his game, and the room was just right, etc. 

What are some of the factors that make that happen? As a guitar player, what can I do to make that happen more when my band plays out? From a sound technicians perspective, what are some things to think about to make his job easier? Anybody on here think they have some secrets? I don't want to tell the sound man how to do his job, but you're at his mercy basically, and he can really change the experience for the concert goer, so it would be nice to understand a little about his end of things.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

you'll want to avoid hiring this guy...


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## avalancheMM (Jan 21, 2009)

We're really lucky, we always get the same sound man from the production company that we use. He has a real ear for tone, and our guitar and bass tones are really important to him(as us). He has no problem telling us when our guitars don't reach his expectations. We also have similar tastes in what we all like, and we can request from him what we are looking for. It really helps to develop a relationship with the tech. I realize that we are in a smaller center, and see the same techs all the time, those of you in Toronto or Vancouver may not see the same guys regularly? Have all your band mates learn about mic placement, so that they can consistently get the same sound going FOH. We all carry our own mics, and pretty much have everything ready to just plug in to the snake. Try to set your stage up in a similar fashion when possible, so you are used to the stage noise and where everything is coming from. I guess the point is to remove any variables from the equation. The less messing around you have to do, the easier everybody's job is. And, be tactful, you absolutely should tell the sound man what you are looking for, technically, he is working for you, too. If you come off as a prima donna, you may not get his full cooperation. Check your ego at the door, no body wants to deal with arrogance. We've all talked to guys that know how certain 'artists' are to work with, I'd rather be known as good to work with than the other way. Just my opinion.

Regards


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## Brennan (Apr 9, 2008)

I think the most important thing you can do as a band (and something few bands ever do), is to adjust your stage volume *first*. Tape the drums, adjust the volume on the amps etc... Make sure everything is level on the stage before you ever start worrying about what it sounds like out front. 

Beyond that, try to keep the stage volume low and mic everything you can. If you can manage to find a good sound guy, treat him like gold ... because in my experience they're extremely few and far between.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

Brennan said:


> I think the most important thing you can do as a band (and something few bands ever do), is to adjust your stage volume *first*. Tape the drums, adjust the volume on the amps etc... Make sure everything is level on the stage before you ever start worrying about what it sounds like out front.
> 
> Beyond that, try to keep the stage volume low and mic everything you can. If you can manage to find a good sound guy, treat him like gold ... because in my experience they're extremely few and far between.


As a sound tech I wish I had more customers like Brennan! Keeping stage volume low, and knowing how to play dynamically, is the best way for a band to give the tech a fighting chance. You don't have to nail the back of the room, you just gotta be able to bring it to the mic.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

One thing that I find most frustrating when setting up for a band is players noodling around while I'm trying to set levels, etc. If you can keep quiet until the sound guy _asks_ you to play it saves a ton of time.

And don't be too fussy about the monitor mix - most systems give you a maximum of two different mixes - if you can play "in time and in tune" then the monitor mix is good. 

Also +1 for keeping the stage volume as low as possible. A small sacrifice in your "tone" can result in a huge improvement in the overall sound. 

Finally, a tight, well rehearsed band can make any sound guy look good.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

The single most important factor in making a band sound good from my perspective as a FOH sound man is stage volume.

If you can get used to side washing your guitar amps and if your bassist can be convinced to bring a small rig to the gigs you'll almost certainly have a better sound out front.

The key is to let the PA do the "heavy lifting". Think of your amps as stage monitors. It's not the task of your amp to get the sound to the crowd. That's the PA's job. Guitar amps are highly directional. Pointing them at the crowd will result in one or two tables getting slaughtered by guitar and if you happen to point it at the sound man, you can count on not being in the mix much.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

I remember seeing Bionic years ago supporting their first album. They were a three piece at the time and I thought they had a great mix going on despite only playing through a vocal PA. I think a lot of that had to do with Jonathan Cummins keeping his stage volume at a reasonable level. I'm pretty sure he was using a Hotplate or attenuator of some sort. A nice option for not sacrificing your tone.

I shared the bill with a band years ago that brought a full Marshall stack with them. It was so tall it couldn't fit on the stage at the small club and they ended up sticking it on the floor side stage and of course were asked to turn the volume down. I stopped carting my Hiwatt 4x12 around for that reason, it's overkill. I purchased a 2x12 and found sound guys asking me to "turn up".


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

A 2 X 12 can still be WAAAAAAY too loud. It's a matter of pointing it at your ear instead of your rear. Too many guys put an amp on the floor and point it straight at the audience. It hits the player nicely in the back of his or her legs and continues on to slaughter the table the amp is pointing at.

If you play a Fender combo and it has those neato little tilt legs.....USE THEM. As I said before, side washing is my first choice for guitar amps, both from a players and from a soundman's perspective.

A Fender Twin or similar can be punishingly loud, particularly if you point it away from your ears and then turn up top the point where you can hear it.


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

An old trick for those who don't have the luxury of a sound man and fully micing the band is to use double cabinets, one on each side of the stage pointing out. This distributes the sound evenly over the audience and lets your band mates 'cross stage hear what you are doing. I also like the idea where possible of using the PA as the main FOH source and using your amp as apersonal side wash monitor. Another thing you can do in less than ideal situations is to have everyone try to point the center of their amps towards the center of the house, so that folks on one side don't get all guitar, all bass etc.....everyone gets a mix of some sort.


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## Gizmo (Aug 7, 2008)

I find when I use a beam blocker, the sound distributes more evenly and avoids that really narrowly focussed ice pick high. Makes it better when your amp is pointed at your ears.
Also, if you don't have a sound guy, a really long cable or wireless so you can go walkies and take a listen is often very revealing!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Ok, taking off the soundman's hat and putting on the guitarist's hat, I pretty much never play without evrything mic'd and a soundman out front. Honestly, I don't see having a soundman as a luxury. I started out that way. Any time a band sounds good without production, they would sound much better with a good soundman out front.

I realize that when a venue pays $400 ~$600 for a band for a night, the money is just not there to pay for production.

That's a shame. Things have changed a lot since the seventies. Club bands on the circuits I was playing ALL had full production and that included a good light show. It usaed to be like seeing a small concert. Now it's like watching a garage rehearsal. The musicians are every bit as talented now, but there's no attention to the finer details that make a good band a great show. 

Anyway, that's why I pretty much play only ticketed events. I'd rather play less often and have a memorable and exciting show each time, than to play every week and hope for the best out front.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> I realize that when a venue pays $400 ~$600 for a band for a night, the money is just not there to pay for production.


Where's this venue that pays $400-$600 per night!?! Is it some magical place called Narnia?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

hardasmum said:


> Where's this venue that pays $400-$600 per night!?! Is it some magical place called Narnia?


Perhaps I'm not getting you here, but if you're playing for less than that, you're giving it away.

I'm nothing special, and I don't leave the house for less than $500. for a club night.


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## Brennan (Apr 9, 2008)

It really depends where, and what you're playing. Cover bands playing outside the major cities can generally pull in some decent coin for a gig (there are a couple note-for-note cover bands around here who can pull 500-1200 a night in the smaller outskirt towns). Original bands (in Ottawa at least, but it's even getting difficult in Toronto and Montreal lately) are lucky to get a percentage of the door, if they can get booked at all.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Brennan said:


> It really depends where, and what you're playing. Cover bands playing outside the major cities can generally pull in some decent coin for a gig (there are a couple note-for-note cover bands around here who can pull 500-1200 a night in the smaller outskirt towns). Original bands (in Ottawa at least, but it's even getting difficult in Toronto and Montreal lately) are lucky to get a percentage of the door, if they can get booked at all.


That's probably true of most cities. When I do all original shows I generally work with a promoter and set it up as a ticketed event. If you do the leg work and draw the people, you can potentially bring in a lot more than $400 ~ $600.

At any rate, to get back on topic, the consensus here seems to be that keeping your stage volume down may be the single biggest factor in achieving a good FOH sound.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Perhaps I'm not getting you here, but if you're playing for less than that, you're giving it away.
> 
> I'm nothing special, and I don't leave the house for less than $500. for a club night.


I was just kidding around. I guess we're just giving it away but I don't know how a brand new band is going to make more than $100 a night in Toronto doing originals. You're lucky to even get a gig at all in this town.


This probably deserves a new thread about band promotion. I'm very curious to know what "legwork" you do to get people to your show.

I know how to write a song, play in a band, record, mix, master, album artwork and webdesign etc. but when it comes to promotion I'm at a loss...actually I'm going to start the thread now!

here it is....

http://www.guitarscanada.com/band-lounge/34248-band-promotion.html


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