# Does Your Amp Have A "Presence" Knob?



## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

I figured something out. I usually keep the presence knob at 75-80% or 3-4 o'clock.
I got out my '60's Princeton and found it is easier to play than my high end amps. It sounds great too. (not as good in the higher registries though.) So I tried to make my Fuchs ODS and Bruno Underground 30 match up to the Princeton in tone, compression and attack. Eventually I discovered if I turn the Presence Knob all the way off, then adjust the bass, treble and mids to suit the Fuchs and Bruno became much more tame and way less hyped. I found the Mid Knob close to zero and the bass at 3 (9 o'clock) is the sweet spot. Removing the mids is important too. Now the amps sounds feel much more like the old Princeton.

I guess the new high end amps are hyped and the Presence Knob adds compression or something. By backing it right off, the amps are more like an old style amp. The reason I never tried this is when I back off the Presence the amp gets way darker. Adjusting the other knobs to compensate does the trick. Getting rid of the mids is also a big part of my new amp settings.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

Presence = mid scoop I believe


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

BlueRocker said:


> Presence = mid scoop I believe


I don't think mine are.


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## nbs2005 (Mar 21, 2018)

In their manual for the Cali Tweed, Mesa says presence adds high end sparkle, or some shit like that. I find less is more but often adjust it depending on the tone I'm after. Rarely past noon.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

The Presence adds high end on my RedPlate Blackline and I set it at around 2-3 o’clock. The amp is dialed in bright to accommodate the neck pickup on my guitars and I roll off the tone knob on my guitars for the bridge pickup to adjust for the brightness.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Sunns, like my 1200s have a Contour control witch is a mid scoop (vs a Mid control which is a boost... the Sunns of that era also had a mid boost switch). Just like Presence controls what these actually do can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and is rarely clear unless you look at a schem and understand it, but the idea behind presence is to enhance intelligebility or cutting power. This can be done in a few ways - medium Q (width of affected band) upper mid boost (vs the mid control which would be wider Q and lower center freq), or a narrow Q low treble control (vs the treble knob which would usually be a shelf), or even a supertreble control - like 'air' EQ. Depends on the make/model of amp. There is no industry standard for it.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I've seen presence knobs which are just the top band of a 4 band EQ and some that are part of the NFB circuit. I also think of the Cut control on a Vox/Matchless circuit as something akin to a presence knob. Probably best not to overthink it, but they really do act slightly differently and should probably be used slightly differently depending on how they are actually configured in the circuitry of the specific amp.


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## Markus 1 (Feb 1, 2019)

Presence preserves stiffness and highs genarally speaking. It re-injects signal into the Phase Inverter .
Cut in a Vox circuit tames highs at/post the Phase inverter. 

Opposite function


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Markus 1 said:


> Presence preserves stiffness and highs genarally speaking. It re-injects signal into the Phase Inverter .
> Cut in a Vox circuit tames highs at/post the Phase inverter.
> 
> Opposite function


So by not re-injecting the signal it removes the over hyped sound and feel?


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

My EVH III has a presence and resonance. 

The presence opens it up a bit, perhaps akin to removing a blanket that was placed over a speaker.


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/what-does-the-presence-knob-on-a-guitar-amplifier-do/

I have one on my Friedman head and have had it on a bunch of Marshall and Marshall style amps over the years. Its does exactly what they say, adds highs and upper mids (with a gain boost and a bit more tendency for harmonic feedback). Decreasing presence does make the amp sound a bit looser and darker, but most of that sound that you associate with metal panel Marshalls is gone as well.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Just turn it back n' forth till you find the sound you like.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

laristotle said:


> Just turn it back n' forth till you find the sound you like.


It's not just that knob though. You have to remove the bass and the mids and increase the treble when you dial it back.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

zdogma said:


> https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/what-does-the-presence-knob-on-a-guitar-amplifier-do/


First, you need to know that the EQ and gain controls of your amp are part of the preamp section of your amp. This means they do their tone shaping before the signal reaches the power amp and is amplified to drive the speaker(s).

The presence control, on the other hand, is part of the power amp section of your amp. Technically, it operates as a “high-frequency shelving boost,” which is a fancy way of saying that it can increase high frequencies but not decrease them. You can turn high frequencies up but not turn them down.

The presence control of an amp is usually interactive with the other EQ controls. It directly adjusts frequencies above the treble control, but it does more than that. Most presence controls also change frequency roll off when adjusted. This means that the presence control can change the effect of the treble knob to sound like a peaking, rather than a shelving, filter because it causes the treble frequencies to boost into a peak. This can make the amp sound more aggressive and have more “bite.” This also means that when you turn the presence down, it can seem to enhance the bass and midrange because they’ll sound louder (relatively) if there isn’t a treble peak.

Some amps, such as Marshalls and Friedmans, sound very “present” even without their presence control turned up, so you might find the perfect, thick-but-still-present tone with a lower setting on the presence knob. But it depends on the tone you’re after, your amp, its speakers, the guitar and effects you play, and so on. Experiment to find the best setting for your particular rig!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Historically, Presence controls were added as a way to reduce distorted sound, by taking some of the output transformer's output and feeding it back to the stage driving the power tubes, and occasionally earlier, to _cancel_ harmonic content. Since output tubes and output transformers can generate harmonic content that wasn't in the input signal, the purpose of the Presence control was to "tame" things. Remember that the era when it came in *valued* pristine clean tone. It wasn't until at least a decade later that we started to think amp distortion was cool.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

player99 said:


> It's not just that knob though. You have to remove the bass and the mids and increase the treble when you dial it back.


That's something that I'll have to experiment with.
Recently picked up a '86 Mesa that I can't quite dial in that's pleasing to my ears .. yet.
Your follow up is informative. Tnx.


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## Markus 1 (Feb 1, 2019)

player99 said:


> So by not re-injecting the signal it removes the over hyped sound and feel?



The amp could feel more "loose" without Presence. Breaks up a bit earlier
Not sure what you mean by "over hyped" but clipping tends to be more gradual and with a softer transition. Like a Vox AC 30


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Markus 1 said:


> The amp could feel more "loose" without Presence. Breaks up a bit earlier
> *Not sure what you mean by "over hyped"* but clipping tends to be more gradual and with a softer transition. Like a Vox AC 30


When I played my old Fender Princeton then go into my Fuchs ODS 30 (Dumble clone) it feels overly touch sensitive, the strings are bright and punchy. Like it has a super compressor and it is right in your face. It is great for singing leads, but for chords and bluesy rock lead it is over the top and the chords do not blend. (It does sound and play great, but there is something about the feel and sound of the old Fender I like. The way chords blend.) There is also a hyped or overly present mid. It is very cool, but the Fender seems like it would be easier to sit in the mix, it is easier to play rhythm and have the chords sound really smooth and pleasing.

I do have a pedalboard with a Cali76 compressor with 40% compressor on the blend, a Kingsley Minstrel tube overdrive pedal as a preamp and giving me slight overdrive. I also have Boss RV6 reverb pedal on. The last in my chain before the amp is a passive 500K pot in a metal box I made to dial back a bit of the signal volume so I don't hit the amp too hard with the Kingsley pedal.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Markus 1 said:


> The amp could feel more "loose" without Presence.


Yes this is true.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

laristotle said:


> That's something that I'll have to experiment with.
> *Recently picked up a '86 Mesa* that I can't quite dial in that's pleasing to my ears .. yet.
> Your follow up is informative. Tnx.


LArry....wehat have you done and not told me?
G.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

GTmaker said:


> LArry....wehat have you done and not told me?
> G.


I didn't? Surely, I must have. 
@greco was with me when I made the deal last fall.


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## JayK (Feb 18, 2020)

As already mentioned by some, the "presence" control on tube amps has traditionally been part of the negative feedback loop (feeds speaker signal back in front of power stage). 
If you can play an amp without a NFB loop it might help understand what the NFB and presence knob does. An example is a tweed 5E3 cranked up, with that nasty/hairy top end distortion that one would describe as the opposite of "tame". If the 5E3 had a NFB loop and presence control, turning the presence down could take away some of this "hairy nastiness" (but why would you want to do that? ).

On my YBA-1, I can get a hint of that hairy sound with presence turned up.
With presence all the way down, the amp tames up a bit and feels stiffer in the highs, but might be better for using high gain pedals or a more "hifi" clean sound.
I usually have the presence somewhere between noon and full on my YBA-1. But this sound might be harsh for someone else's tastes.


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## Markus 1 (Feb 1, 2019)

player99 said:


> When I played my old Fender Princeton then go into my Fuchs ODS 30 (Dumble clone) it feels overly touch sensitive, the strings are bright and punchy. Like it has a super compressor and it is right in your face. It is great for singing leads, but for chords and bluesy rock lead it is over the top and the chords do not blend. (It does sound and play great, but there is something about the feel and sound of the old Fender I like. The way chords blend.) There is also a hyped or overly present mid. It is very cool, but the Fender seems like it would be easier to sit in the mix, it is easier to play rhythm and have the chords sound really smooth and pleasing.
> 
> I do have a pedalboard with a Cali76 compressor with 40% compressor on the blend, a Kingsley Minstrel tube overdrive pedal as a preamp and giving me slight overdrive. I also have Boss RV6 reverb pedal on. The last in my chain before the amp is a passive 500K pot in a metal box I made to dial back a bit of the signal volume so I don't hit the amp too hard with the Kingsley pedal.



Dumbles - I believe I am correct- have a stiffer power supply than traditional Fenders. That makes a huge difference in attack. Especially clean and low volumes. So it is not merely the Presence - although that is a contributor.
It's like the note ambushes you. I jumps out and says" Hey, Muthafucka!!!" Disclaimer- I suck as a player but I have built amps and I find with Dumbles and Trainwerecks you play differently. For chord work dial the Volume back on the guitar just a tad. They force you to be way more exact and they are unforgiving. As a result I always say that they make me suck more loudly.
Tweed cicuits, AC30 types and old Gibsons have a squish in the attack. In my experience Traynors can be a bit stiffer but I detect a "bounciness" (if ever there is such a thing) in the attack. I had a YBA4 15 inch combo with this charactristic. Simply loved it and can't believe I sold it. Same with an old YBA1 and a YGL Mark 3 I had. Although in _some _of those circuits you have a 4 Meg volume pot- which if you replace with a more Marshall like 1Meg- the bounce diminishes in my experience

So all to say - this is a whole circuit thing. And as another poster alluded- these amps typically do their best from about 4 on the volume or gain and if there is a master volume- open it up as much as you can. The whole circuit becomes optimally engaged- especially the phase inverter and power amp....That is their happy spot- though your wife and neighbours will want to kick you in your happy spot
Markus


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Markus 1 said:


> Dumbles - I believe I am correct- have a stiffer power supply than traditional Fenders. That makes a huge difference in attack. Especially clean and low volumes. So it is not merely the Presence - although that is a contributor.
> It's like the note ambushes you. I jumps out and says" Hey, Muthafucka!!!" Disclaimer- I suck as a player but I have built amps and I find with Dumbles and Trainwerecks you play differently. For chord work dial the Volume back on the guitar just a tad. They force you to be way more exact and they are unforgiving. As a result I always say that they make me suck more loudly.
> Tweed cicuits, AC30 types and old Gibsons have a squish in the attack. In my experience Traynors can be a bit stiffer but I detect a "bounciness" (if ever there is such a thing) in the attack. I had a YBA4 15 inch combo with this charactristic. Simply loved it and can't believe I sold it. Same with an old YBA1 and a YGL Mark 3 I had. Although in _some _of those circuits you have a 4 Meg volume pot- which if you replace with a more Marshall like 1Meg- the bounce diminishes in my experience
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation. My ears are retired. No more loud amps anymore. I keep the amps at a very modest 64 - 78 dB.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

JayK said:


> As already mentioned by some, the "presence" control on tube amps has traditionally been part of the negative feedback loop (feeds speaker signal back in front of power stage).
> If you can play an amp without a NFB loop it might help understand what the NFB and presence knob does. An example is a tweed 5E3 cranked up, with that nasty/hairy top end distortion that one would describe as the opposite of "tame". If the 5E3 had a NFB loop and presence control, turning the presence down could take away some of this "hairy nastiness" (but why would you want to do that? ).
> 
> On my YBA-1, I can get a hint of that hairy sound with presence turned up.
> ...


I have a 5F2-A tweed Princeton. Although it is a single-ended 5-6W amp, it uses negative feedback from the speaker side of the output transformer, though it isn't made variable like a true Presence control. It's the 22k resistor from the output transformer. If I lift one end of that resistor, the amp reverts to icepick-through-the-forehead tone. A true Presence control generally provides more negative feedback at higher frequencies. The Princeton provides it for all frequencies.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

laristotle said:


> I didn't? Surely, I must have.
> @greco was with me when I made the deal last fall.
> 
> View attachment 307134


That's a great little amp.

I tend to leave Presence at zero and work with the traditional EQ knobs on pretty much any amp that has it.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Presence removes upper mids & highs from NFB as far as I know (at least in the traditional Marshall sense). 
So by removing negative feedback in upper mids, you actually boost it relative to everything else. Like JayK said. The presence allows some of the frequencies (upper mid) through with no negative feedback. It's a bit confusing as it is 'double negative'. 
This type of circuit is part of the power amp rather than preamp, and only found in amps with NFB loop.



JayK said:


> As already mentioned by some, the "presence" control on tube amps has traditionally been part of the negative feedback loop (feeds speaker signal back in front of power stage).
> If you can play an amp without a NFB loop it might help understand what the NFB and presence knob does. An example is a tweed 5E3 cranked up, with that nasty/hairy top end distortion that one would describe as the opposite of "tame". If the 5E3 had a NFB loop and presence control, turning the presence down could take away some of this "hairy nastiness" (but why would you want to do that? ).


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

davetcan said:


> That's a great little amp.
> 
> I tend to leave Presence at zero and work with the traditional EQ knobs on pretty much any amp that has it.


You should have told me earlier. I just found this out a few days ago on my own.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

My early K&M (Two Rock) has a toggle switch labeled “Negative Feedback” with the option of “Zero”, “Normal”, or “Presence”. So I think presence has to do with negative feedback.

Edit: just read JK’s, Markus’ and JB’s post above and agree. Posted before reading.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

player99 said:


> You should have told me earlier. I just found this out a few days ago on my own.


LOL, sorry, just saw the thread  Most people would disagree with me anyway.


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## Markus 1 (Feb 1, 2019)

player99 said:


> You should have told me earlier. I just found this out a few days ago on my own.



Yup! I agree with low settings on presence if you want some more natural vintage sounding warm breakup.
Still..... keep in mind _some amps will do this better than others_. There was a "Hi-Fi" trend in the 90's boutique circles that tended to keep the signal stiff and clean and rely more on ultimate power amp breakup (but at the cost of really pushing the amp)
Very often certain output transformers and especially very beefy ones tend to hold on to clean signal longer
I once "overbuilt" a tweed deluxe this way, by accident.
Standard schematic, but decided to splurge on the output transformer and got something a bit beefier than the standard tweed tranny.
It was loud and really punchy. Only got that squishy greasy deluxe character at about 7 on the dial. But it was loud by then!!


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

davetcan said:


> Most people would disagree with me anyway.


Fools. Do they not know of your ban hammer?


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

player99 said:


> Fools. Do they not know of your ban hammer?


They likely know i don't have one, and probably wouldn't use it if i did. Although i do have a direct line to the guy who does.


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## PBGas (Jan 14, 2017)

1 amp has one presence knob. The other amp as 3


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

On my DSL50 Presence is pretty much at zero for Fender guitars and maybe at 3 for Gibsons. Treble is similarly set low. The presence control saw more action on my YCV50 though.


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## Markus 1 (Feb 1, 2019)

Waaaay back I had my first YCV 40 and could not understand the Presence knob as - at the volumes I played (very low with a young baby in the house)- it was irrelevant. Had no discernible impact.
One day my wife and my daughter were away for an extended period- it was the middle of the week with most neighbours gone and I pushed the volume to about 8.
Suddenly things became crystal clear!!
I had at the time read a lot about people considering taking out the Presence on these amps and wiring master volumes and discovered that most of them also played at bedroom volumes as I did


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

Been reading this thread for 5 days all the while confusing "contour" with "presence". I guess I need a one-knob amp.


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