# Michael Jackson dead



## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

TMZ has reported that MJ died of a cardiac arrest this afternoon. Wow.


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## Rumble_b (Feb 14, 2006)

From what I hear he's still alive.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

it seems it's another hoax...they do it about every 2 years for some reason. TMZ is NOT exactly reliable news..LOL


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

Rumble_b said:


> From what I hear he's still alive.


Hence, the question mark in the title. The story after all came from TMZ.  Anyone know the real story yet??


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## Rumble_b (Feb 14, 2006)

Citynews.ca says he's dead but I think they got that from TMZ.


*Edit* CTV news just said that they are getting reports he's gone, but they also said nothing is confirmed.


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## puckhead (Sep 8, 2008)

LA Times has him in a coma
(via Nationa Post http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...25/report-michael-jackson-dead-at-age-50.aspx )


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

All of the networks are picking it up now. MSNBC say he has died.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Man..what he would'nt do to promote his new tour and album hwopv


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## Tarl (Feb 4, 2006)

CBS news and the LA Times confirm that he is dead.......


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

It's even on CNN..


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## Michelle (Aug 21, 2006)

IS he really dead? Like Ken Lay or Elvis? Or alive and well and living as Diana Ross in Nebraska? hmmmmm


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

It appears that MJ has passed away. I think it is a huge loss. Thriller and Bad are brilliant beyond measure. He was a very talented man.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

I hope his will includes restitution to all the young boys he abused.

Glad he's dead.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Theres two contrasting views! Its interesting that he draws such polarizing opinions.



Archer said:


> I think it is a huge loss. He was a very talented man.





mrmatt1972 said:


> Glad he's dead.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Well...this is my opinion only...but even if he was the king of pop and made some of the most incredible Pop music in the 80's, abusing underage children and then settling out of court with countless millions as made him a pedophile much more then the greath artist people make him to be...not to say the real freak in turned into over the years....No one recalls him dangling his new born over the balconly 3 stories high!...


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## montreal (Mar 25, 2008)

now I'll never get that $100million dollars he owes me...damn...


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

mrmatt1972 said:


> I hope his will includes restitution to all the young boys he abused.
> 
> Glad he's dead.


Moron.


al3d said:


> Well...this is my opinion only...but even if he was the king of pop and made some of the most incredible Pop music in the 80's, abusing underage children and then settling out of court with countless millions as made him a pedophile much more then the greath artist people make him to be...not to say the real freak in turned into over the years....No one recalls him dangling his new born over the balconly 3 stories high!...


They talked about his incidents on CNN today. he was never convicted of these charges. 
Leave a great man alone, he has helped out the youth of the world immeasurably.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

TDeneka said:


> Moron.
> They talked about his incidents on CNN today. he was never convicted of these charges.
> Leave a great man alone, he has helped out the youth of the world immeasurably.


they never convicted him because he gave 15 million to the first kid's parent, and 20 million to the second. that's why. you should know that MONEY talks and the law takes a hick in the US. he was guilty as charged and he walked that's pretty simple.

If you wanna admire a pedophile feel free to do so, but don't knock the ones that don't


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

TDeneka said:


> Moron.
> They talked about his incidents on CNN today. he was never convicted of these charges.
> Leave a great man alone, he has helped out the youth of the world immeasurably.


Out of court settlements and the best lawyers money can buy kept the bastard out of jail. Great musician - maybe. Great man - no chance.

matt


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

Its confirmed he is gone.. 
What gets me is how the news media can rip this guy apart when he was accused of sexual misconduct, and he was guilty before the trial even started..
Now he is an Icon... but isn't that the way it goes, when somebody passes away.
I was not a big fan, but did injoy some of his music..
Rick


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Great musician - maybe.
> 
> Great man - no chance.
> 
> matt


Well said.


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

Holy crap! Now I just read that Jeff Goldblum fell to his death while filming in New Zealand! WTF is going on?

http://jeff.goldblum.mediafetcher.com/news/top_stories/actor_new_zealand.php


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

TDeneka said:


> Moron.
> They talked about his incidents on CNN today. he was never convicted of these charges.
> Leave a great man alone, he has helped out the youth of the world immeasurably.


He helped himself to the youth of the world immeasurably!!  I'll miss Jeff Goldblum though.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Rick31797 said:


> Its confirmed he is gone..
> What gets me is how the news media can rip this guy apart when he was accused of sexual misconduct, and he was guilty before the trial even started..
> Now he is an Icon... but isn't that the way it goes, when somebody passes away.
> I was not a big fan, but did injoy some of his music..
> Rick


No matter which way you slice it he will go down as one of the greatest entertainers of our time. He is up there with Elvis, Sinatra and Oprah. Well, maybe not Oprah.

As for the molestation thing. Who knows what really happened. I think he was stupid and way too trusting with some of the people he let roam around that ranch of his. But there is no doubting he was bizarre. The marriage to Lisa Marie, his own kids and the bizarre way he went about getting them. The way too many cosmedic surgeries. Literally going from being black to white? He was a character for sure. But an entertainer, one of the best we will ever see. You can say OJ was pretty well a murderer but you cannot deny his gridiron accomplishments.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Rugburn said:


> He helped himself to the youth of the world immeasurably!!  I'll miss Jeff Goldblum though.


Good Job, Ignorance seems to be alive and well.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Hoo-hoo no more.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

And Farrah Fawcett dies of cancer - http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/656541


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

TDeneka said:


> Good Job, Ignorance seems to be alive and well.


We don't all have to give a damn. That's not ignorance, that's just another's opinion. I didn't call *you* ignorant or a moron, I simply voiced my feelings on his legacy. BTW Jeff Goldblum is alive and well. :smile:


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

Rugburn said:


> BTW Jeff Goldblum is alive and well. :smile:


That is a relief.:smile:


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## Spikezone (Feb 2, 2006)

I don't know...Thriller was an AMAZING album, but that's all of his music I ever listened to. As far as MJ the man, I think he was the tragic result of a combination of extreme fame and a domineering money hungry father. I think Michael had a good head start on the weirdness that his life turned out to be from his Dad and had a pretty slim chance of turning out to be anything resembling 'normal' at all.
-Mikey


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Well, I can't say I was ever a fan of his--except maybe for the Jackson 5 cartoon I saw as a kid--and the star of that one--in my eyes was Randy.

My main concern would be for those members of his family that will truly miss him in a real way & any friends--they have lost a loved one.

I got to the point where I ignored his weirdness, there's only so much time, why waste it on weird stuff.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

al3d said:


> they never convicted him because he gave 15 million to the first kid's parent, and 20 million to the second. that's why. you should know that MONEY talks and the law takes a hick in the US. he was guilty as charged and he walked that's pretty simple.
> 
> If you wanna admire a pedophile feel free to do so, but don't knock the ones that don't


I have never bought that payoff stuff. If someone rapes a kid in California the criminal charges can be filed AND a civil suit can be filed. Most parents that I know would want the person gutted and hanging from a spit FIRST.....and then take their money.

Also, there are statutes in California and US law that allows the state to press charges if warranted. That didnt happen in these cases which makes the circumstances dubious at best.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Archer said:


> It appears that MJ has passed away. I think it is a huge loss. Thriller and Bad are brilliant beyond measure. He was a very talented man.


I dont really see it as a huge loss (to the musical community). His best years were long gone, he hadnt done anything noteworthy in over a decade (short of bizarre behaviour, and legal/financial controversy). I dont believe we were going to get much more out of him. 

I'm mixed in a way...If he did the things he was accused of doing, then good riddance to the scumbag. if he didnt, then I feel sorry for what peope put him through out of greed. We'll never know.

At any rate, I feel at least a little bad for him, because he was obviously deeply troubled psychologically/emotionally, and money couldnt help him with that.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Rugburn said:


> We don't all have to give a damn. That's not ignorance, that's just another's opinion. I didn't call *you* ignorant or a moron, I simply voiced my feelings on his legacy. BTW Jeff Goldblum is alive and well. :smile:


It is ignorance when you enter a thread like this and troll, well that is what it is, trolling. 

Of course though you are entitled to your wrong opinion.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

I dunno about any of the "reality" behind the closed bedroom doors of the magic kingdom. However, I know of two things:

1a) Michael Jackson had a voice that was *to me* worse than nails on a chalkboard. Drove me nuts to hear him and that from the very first moment a friend of mine put an album on of his singing as a kid with the family band. 

1b) As to his dancing, never had I previously had a want to seriously tie a person down and bitch slap them stupid until I was subjected to his stage antics. Had it not been for MJ and his crotch grabbing one gloved shoulder jerked spirals I may have actually developed an interest in dances at school (grade 7 and on, and yes, by this time I liked classical dance, ballet and interpretive and I still do)... however, with all the kids wanting to crotch grab and moonwalk, school dances came and I simply stayed home. And gawd all the talent that followed him and just HAD to find ways of doing what he did. Dance became the single worst side of so many acts that followed. 

2) As a circus freak he was well worth the tabloid entertainment he gave the world (though not to me, I don't read the drivel).

Will I miss him?

:wave: No.


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## acdc54_caddy62 (Mar 12, 2007)

The only man who can fake his death and get away with it. He just didn't wanna do the upcoming tour in London.
:smilie_flagge17:


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## Stonesy (Oct 7, 2008)

Are singers musicians? Someone said he was a musician back there.


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## Stonesy (Oct 7, 2008)

King of Pop my ass! THE BEATLES rule in that realm. And in others.


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## Blue Apple (Feb 8, 2006)

My question is what will happen with the Beatles Publishing Rights that Jackson owned?


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Lots of folks wished him dead. They got their wish.

He was absolutely no influence on me (or mine) other than to repulse me. I heartily disliked his music from the start, and his persona reeked of self-servitude and self-absorption. There is doubt as to how much of his music was of his own composition, arrangement, or production (there were plenty of contributors on the recordings), and his actual influence beyond the pop entertainment world is negligible. For example, in ten years of music instruction I have never once been asked for his music, or had him listed as a like or influence by students. As king of pop he was a pretender who was dethroned years ago. 

That said, I understand that others admire him, and his demise will saturate the airwaves for a while. Another reason to avoid the "news" programs. 

Peace, Mooh.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Blue Apple said:


> My question is what will happen with the Beatles Publishing Rights that Jackson owned?



He had mortgages against the Beatles publishing catalogue so I assume they will now become part of the estate. Estimates put in at either 40 million of 400 million in debt depending on what one can believe. 

I can't see the rights not being sold to help settle Jackson's debt.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

When youre eccentric and have money, you become an easy target for accusations by the money hungry. If he really was what this accuser said he was, there would have been more victims. Ever see the counts when they get priests. He had even easier access to kids then they do, so its a little hard to buy unless you have something against him, and then anything bad becomes believable. I'm not a fan of his, other then a couple of songs, but the simple fact that he is leaving a young child without a father makes this a very bad thing. I think if people want to dance on his grave, they should at least do it in their own minds, or some place else. We celebrate music here, not death...........


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Archer..you don't have to get into anything..the payoff were all proven a long time ago and were part of the contreversy as well.


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## montreal (Mar 25, 2008)

Archer said:


> He had mortgages against the Beatles publishing catalogue so I assume they will now become part of the estate. Estimates put in at either 40 million of 400 million in debt depending on what one can believe.
> 
> I can't see the rights not being sold to help settle Jackson's debt.


Michael borrowed the money from Sony Publishing. The Beatles catalog was held as collateral. If the debt to Sony cannot be covered by the estate, full ownership would revert to Sony, who have been licensing the hell out of the catalog anyways, much to the chagrin of the Beatles. MJ had managed to give up much of his publishing over the last few years to pay for his lavish lifestyle.
His publishing assets were said to be worth close to a billion dollars at one time.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Did'nt paul Mcartney buy back a section of the cataloghe to Micheal at some point?. i mean Paul's net worth is over 1.5 billion.surely he can buy it back with ease


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

al3d said:


> Archer..you don't have to get into anything..the payoff were all proven a long time ago and were part of the contreversy as well.


Just because he settled out of court doesn't necessarily incriminate him. It's possible he just got sick of spending money on his lawyers, which must have cost an arm and several legs, or that he just wanted to get out of the spotlight.

Also, it's possible he was just following the advice of his legal team or other advisors.

I'm not the world's biggest MJ fan when it comes to him as a person, but I don't necessarily think it's right to assume he's guilty just because he settled out of court. 



al3d said:


> Did'nt paul Mcartney buy back a section of the cataloghe to Micheal at some point?. i mean Paul's net worth is over 1.5 billion.surely he can buy it back with ease


I also remember hearing that MJ sold some, if not all of the rights he purchased. I don't think his estate owns them anymore.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The guy had some good tunes, some great moves, some famous friends, but a lousy childhood, and a decreasingly impressive succession of noses.

He's one of a large number of showbiz folks, for whom the best thing I could have wished for them is that they move in to a bungalow down the block from me and live a normal life. It's remarkable what sanity cutting the grass, buying toilet paper at Giant Tiger, and getting the recyclables ready for pickup, can insert into one's life.

It's NOT remarkable what being surrounded by sycophants, accountants, managers, leeches, "beautiful people" and other psychically-damaged showbiz types, and similar types can do to warp your world.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

I always thought he was a victim OF money. Too much money. Treated it just like crack. When you have that much ( 80's) nobody will bitch slap you for being a screwup. It was downhill from there. 

Like it or not _Beat It_ is a really good example "the hook"


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

mhammer said:


> The guy had some good tunes, some great moves, some famous friends, but a lousy childhood, and a decreasingly impressive succession of noses.
> 
> He's one of a large number of showbiz folks, for whom the best thing I could have wished for them is that they move in to a bungalow down the block from me and live a normal life. It's remarkable what sanity cutting the grass, buying toilet paper at Giant Tiger, and getting the recyclables ready for pickup, can insert into one's life.
> 
> It's NOT remarkable what being surrounded by sycophants, accountants, managers, leeches, "beautiful people" and other psychically-damaged showbiz types, and similar types can do to warp your world.


Being famous is not all its cracked up to be. I will take my dull existence over it any day of the week.


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## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

Stonesy said:


> Are singers musicians? Someone said he was a musician back there.


hmmm - fodder for another thread maybe.....but - DUDE - Of course!

vocals is an instrument like any other - albeit harder to play for most. (myself included)

Robert Plant, Freddy Mercury, Paul Rogers, DLR, Sammy Hagar, Ozzy, Dio, Jagger and on and on and on.....singers - musicians alike.


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## roadman (Jun 24, 2009)

RIP MJ...thanks for the music


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

lbrown1 said:


> hmmm - fodder for another thread maybe.....but - DUDE - Of course!
> 
> vocals is an instrument like any other - albeit harder to play for most. (myself included)
> 
> Robert Plant, Freddy Mercury, Paul Rogers, DLR, Sammy Hagar, Ozzy, Dio, Jagger and on and on and on.....singers - musicians alike.




:wave:Since I seem to court controversy this week (and this simply made me chuckle):

http://www.guitarscanada.com/Board/showthread.php?t=24270


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

mrmatt1972 said:


> I hope his will includes restitution to all the young boys he abused.
> Glad he's dead.


...on every site i have been on or participate in, this kind of ignorant, hateful comment has come, predictably, from the usual suspects.

if you have proof that jackson was a pedophile, perhaps you should be speaking to the police. otherwise, its just more innuendo, speculation, gossip, rumour and conjecture.

some people just don't like anyone who is...you know..."different from you and me"....in another age i have little doubt that people like this would have burned jackson as a witch.

-dh


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Diablo said:


> I dont really see it as a huge loss (to the musical community).


...if you can handle a little irony, there are literally millions who would disagree with you, many of whom are musicians or in the music industry.

-dh


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

Well, in death as in life, MJ certainly has stirred up the pot. People seem to be in one of two camps...either glorifying his talent or gleefully dancing on his grave. 

Though I was never a big fan of his art, I don't for one second dispute that he has had a huge impact on pop music. His personal life appears to have been a shambles from early on and, whether he was receiving poor advice from his handlers (spelled enablers?) or was just a victim of his own poor judgement, his choices in the latter part of his life got him into a lot of trouble. Fame carries a heavy price.

I suppose the media orgy will carry on unabated until long after he is in the ground and, quite frankly, I am already sick of it. It bothers me to no end to see the depth to which the sycophants and gossip mongers will stoop, just to feed the public's ravenous appetite for dirty little details. It is events like this which make me think that there really is no hope for the human race. 

As the circus continues around MJ's death, thousands of other people, children included, are starving and dying under horrendous circumstances. 

Where are the news people to tell their story? 

And who wants to listen?


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Being famous is not all its cracked up to be. I will take my dull existence over it any day of the week.



...i am inclined to agree.

-dh


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

The whole thing about him been a pedophile is EXTREMELY well documented and proven, to thing otherwise just proves been closeminded to the idea that such a Famouns man could be a pedophile. the British Reporter uncovered all the evidence you can think of, and that's why the jackson clan tried everything to get him to NOT broadcast his documentary. Find it and watch it, it's a real eye opener on MJ and his lifestyle and sexual taste.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

david henman said:


> ...on every site i have been on or participate in, this kind of ignorant, hateful comment has come, predictably, from the usual suspects.
> 
> if you have proof that jackson was a pedophile, perhaps you should be speaking to the police. otherwise, its just more innuendo, speculation, gossip, rumour and conjecture.
> 
> ...


I am hardly being ignorant, and hateful may be too strong a word.

His out of court settlements are tacit admissions of guilt. I don't care about any of his other "quirks" or if he is "different from you and me." I'm typically really easy to get along with and I embrace diversity at every opportunity. But getting children drunk on "Jesus Juice" and raping them is reason enough for me to have disliked the man from afar. That and I couldn't stand his music.

matt


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

*Mj*

Michael Jackson was " Child Like" .. he never had a child -hood and was forced into the intertainment industry at a very young age.

He was living his child -hood as an adult. He once said, as he was looking out a window and seeing kids playing > I wonder what that is like..

You cannot expect a child like adult to balance a check book so to speak. he owed 400 million.. hard to believe a person capable of making so much money, could be so far in debt.
I don't very much there will be anything left for his children, which is a real shame.

Michael did very strange things, such as holding a baby over a Balcony, and also he admited to being in the same bed with small children. he didnt feel there was anything wrong with this because he is really a child inside a adults body.

Nobody will ever know if he crossed the line other than if there was a child involved.
When your in the media spotlight , you want to be very careful what you say and what you do.
It's too bad his family was able to give him more moral support over the years.
Maybe things would have turn out way different.
Rick


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

TDeneka said:


> Of course though you are entitled to your *wrong *opinion.


As you are equally entitled to your own *wrong* opinion(s)

Dave


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

al3d said:


> The whole thing about him been a pedophile is EXTREMELY well documented and proven, to thing otherwise just proves been closeminded to the idea that such a Famouns man could be a pedophile. the British Reporter uncovered all the evidence you can think of, and that's why the jackson clan tried everything to get him to NOT broadcast his documentary. Find it and watch it, it's a real eye opener on MJ and his lifestyle and sexual taste.


...if you and matt have proof that jackson raped children, many of us, including the police, would like to see it.

otherwise, its nothing more than innuendo, gossip, speculation, rumour, conjecture...

that said, it has been proven time and time again that if you repeat a lie often enough, people will accept it as the truth.

-dh


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

Man,,there are some ignorant people around, not to mention class-less. The man is dead. Have some respect. If you don't, then bypass the thread, unless you have a compulsion for showing your ignorance.


Oh, and spellcheck is your friend.

CT.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

david henman said:


> ...if you and matt have proof that jackson raped children, many of us, including the police, would like to see it.
> 
> otherwise, its nothing more than innuendo, gossip, speculation, rumour, conjecture...
> 
> -dh


Hey Dave,

I'm all for the "innocent until proven guilty" in a court of law thing. Unfortunately his out of court settlements included gag orders and the promise not to prosecute criminally. The DA and sheriff's offices could not gather enough evidence (not that there ever is much in such cases) in large part due to the confidentiality agreements MJ's staff signed. Money = Power. MJ had a lot of power. More than enough to silence his victims and foil the police.

The documentary that al3d is referring to is both stunning and heart wrenching. It was enough for me to stop giving MJ the benefit of the doubt.

matt

P.S. I'm out of this thread. I have better things to think about...


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

MJ admitted HIM self to having given alchool to children and having slept with some of them all night in his OWN bedroom!...you don't need to RAPE a kid to be considered a pedophile. 

If anyone has doubt, get your neighbor's kid over your house, get him drunk, get him in your bed, and wait for his folks to come by...then see what they think of it!...


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2009)

I'm liking what Bob Lefsetz had to say:



> He missed his childhood and now he’s gonna miss his old age.
> 
> How ****** up is that?
> 
> ...


The whole article from him is a good read. He was a product, for our entertainment, from start to end.

It also mentions the Sony - Beatles catalog connection:


> Sony can be thrilled that the digital marketplace insures there’s endless inventory for those sitting shiva to buy. And they’re going to end up with the Beatles catalog too. But we’ve lost something with the passing of Michael Jackson. A belief that America is a good-hearted place, a supportive place, where we want everybody to have a good life and be happy.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

al3d said:


> MJ admitted HIM self to having given alchool to children and having slept with some of them all night in his OWN bedroom!...you don't need to RAPE a kid to be considered a pedophile.
> 
> If anyone has doubt, get your neighbor's kid over your house, get him drunk, get him in your bed, and wait for his folks to come by...then see what they think of it!...


Maybe if you offer the parents 20 million, they wouldn't mind?


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

ne1roc said:


> Maybe if you offer the parents 20 million, they wouldn't mind?


yeah..that's what's sad realy


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

david henman said:


> ...if you and matt have proof that jackson raped children, many of us, including the police, would like to see it.
> 
> otherwise, its nothing more than innuendo, gossip, speculation, rumour, conjecture...
> 
> ...


Exactly , listening to the spin doctors and their theories can twist ones mind and opinion as well , don't believe everything you hear or read . 

MJ lived a strange life and a sad one at that not having a childhood plus his father was pretty hard on the family so the fact he had no real childhood had an effect on him that non of us can even begin to understand . He like a lot of others who became famous and in the lime light could not handle it and self destructed .

Thanks for the music and dancing MJ , you took it to a whole different place .


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

david henman said:


> ...if you and matt have proof that jackson raped children, many of us, including the police, would like to see it.
> 
> otherwise, its nothing more than innuendo, gossip, speculation, rumour, conjecture...
> 
> ...


Dude..HE admitted to it himself...jesus..what's so hard to understand!..i never said RAPED...


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

If he was really like that, he certainly had the means to travel and live in countries of the world where he could do what he wanted. Notice he never did...........


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

ne1roc said:


> Maybe if you offer the parents 20 million, they wouldn't mind?


Someone finally hit the nail on the head. The very fact that the parents were able to be silenced with money tells me everything I need to know. Would you take money for your childs innocence? No thanks. How does a person that has $500 million suffer if they give $20 million to someone to drop a law suit, real or made up. 

If someone raped or even cuddled up in bed with my child no amount of money would stop me from either beating the snot out of them myself or having them do time, or both.

Think about it long and hard.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Think about it long and hard.


Got your back there. The 500 mill didn't last that long. I tried to ( in my mind) spend $1mil and couldn't do it. My needs are that big. 

Can't replace my children's happiness and mental health with greenbacks


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Someone finally hit the nail on the head. The very fact that the parents were able to be silenced with money tells me everything I need to know. Would you take money for your childs innocence? No thanks. How does a person that has $500 million suffer if they give $20 million to someone to drop a law suit, real or made up.
> 
> If someone raped or even cuddled up in bed with my child no amount of money would stop me from either beating the snot out of them myself or having them do time, or both.
> 
> Think about it long and hard.


Well, the other side of the coin could be "9 out of 10 accusations don't make it to court, and 9 out of ten of those fail to get a conviction, and of the convictions 9 out of 10 see no monitory rewards or anything more than probation for the accused". I really do not recall the exact figures, but rape/assault/molestation have always been presented as the least likely to succeed in going to court and usually receive some of the lightest sentences and judgements when they do and are successful. I mean, wasn't there a judge that let a rapist off on time served because he "had the decency to use a condom"? Wan't that about the same time as the MJ accusations? 

As a dad, I don't know, this is not an easy call, and times are different now than 20ish years ago. Could I live with trying to convict with the real chance of failing in court, or would I take the money and simply deal with the lifetimes fallout that will happen anyway? Most of my life experience does suggest taking the money is the better option.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

It's interesting how many people here and in other online discourse have lamented his loss of childhood, his abusive relationship with his father/family etc. A man-child who was treated badly by the press, and who's best friend was a chimp and on and on and on. This is as speculative and as full of rumour as anything that's been said about him. All gleaned from tabloid bios and such. While serious police work is discredited as speculation and inuendo....please. Who the hell knows what went on at Neverland Ranch from day to day. I mostly don't care, but none of his "sad" life would excuse what he was charged with by the LA Sheriff's Dept. Members in this thread have called each other names, been incredibly hostile to the extent of suggesting to an obviously francophone member of the forum that "spellcheck is his friend". Yes, to quote some here, ignorance is alive and well.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

keeperofthegood said:


> Most of my life experience does suggest taking the money is the better option.


Not had dealt with mental issues in your family? Leaves you feeling helpless. Waving money will add to the aggrevation.


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## YJMUJRSRV (Jul 17, 2007)

gone fishing


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2009)

YJMUJRSRV said:


> I saw him working the register at Macs in Etobicoke.
> 
> :wave:


I hear he bought a nice place in Tweed, ON. On the water. Near Elvis.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

shoretyus said:


> Not had dealt with mental issues in your family? Leaves you feeling helpless. Waving money will add to the aggrevation.



I spent 5 years in long term care actually.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

iaresee said:


> I hear he bought a nice place in Tweed, ON. On the water. Near Elvis.




And he plays at the Tweedsmuir 

http://www.ruralroutes.com/327.html


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

keeperofthegood said:


> Most of my life experience does suggest taking the money is the better option.


 Not impressive. I wouldn't want you on my team dude. 

What impresses me, is the Goldberg Family in the OJ case. No amount of money would buy them out until OJ was behind bars or financially destroyed.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

david henman said:


> ...if you can handle a little irony, there are literally millions who would disagree with you, many of whom are musicians or in the music industry.
> 
> -dh


I'm sure there are. I dont fabricate my opinions to conform with populism.

I would presume that these music industry types you speak of could be (and probably are) the same people that regurgitate the same formulaic pop music that propels multimillion dollar empires ....err, I mean "musical" careers like Miley Cyrus, Jonas Brothers, Hillary Duff, Aaron Carter, Pussycat Dolls, Beyonce Knowles among many others. So yes, in their eyes they lost the godfather of their genre.
Me? meh...
I can live without formula pop, disco beats, tons of dancing, gimmicky red leather jackets and shiny gloves, and songs consisting of little more than repetitive chants like "I hate this part right here, I hate this part right here".
sounds more like Vaudeville to me.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

Diablo said:


> I'm sure there are. I dont fabricate my opinions to conform with populism.
> 
> I would presume that these music industry types you speak of could be (and probably are) the same people that regurgitate the same formulaic pop music that propels multimillion dollar empires ....err, I mean "musical" careers like Miley Cyrus, Jonas Brothers, Hillary Duff, Aaron Carter, Pussycat Dolls, among many others. So yes, in their eyes they lost the godfather of their genre.
> Me? meh...
> I can live without formula pop, disco beats, tons of dancing, and songs consisting of little more than repetitive chants like "I hate this part right here, I hate this part right here".


If you are comparing Micheal Jackson to the likes of Miley Cyrus, Jonas Brothers, Hillary Duff, Aaron Carter, Pussycat Dolls, then you truly are an idiot. 


Yes....I said idiot. I could say alot worse, but it means nothing on the internet.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

shoretyus said:


> Not had dealt with mental issues in your family? Leaves you feeling helpless. Waving money will add to the aggrevation.


Different people handle things/react differently. 

Some think whats done is done, you cant un-ring a bell, so if some money can make coping with the future better, why not? Psychiatrists dont come free in the US. Plus, after enduring the media circus that goes with going public, you'd want to be able to relocate and start over.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

ne1roc said:


> If you are comparing Micheal Jackson to the likes of Miley Cyrus, Jonas Brothers, Hillary Duff, Aaron Carter, Pussycat Dolls, then you truly are an idiot.
> 
> 
> Yes....I said idiot. I could say alot worse, but it means nothing on the internet.


Over-react much?kksjur
Oh please, dont censor yourself for my behalf :bow:
Say your darnedest, because I couldnt care less whatever name calling a stranger on the webs stoops to, over a topic like Michael Jackson. lol. Superghey.

Was he not called the "King of Pop"? Are those mentioned not pop artists?
Go give your head a shake before talking like a wannabe tough guy.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Putting aside the weirdness factor of the post 80's and the dubious yet very damaging charges of the 90's I would have to say (from experience seeing him live) that he was one of the most electrifying "performers" of our time. I have seen a shit load of concerts in my time and the Jackson 5 at Buffalo Memorial Auditorium on Aug 2nd, 1981 is still rated up there in my top 3 concerts of all time. The whole family are born entertainers and MJ was the cream of the crop. Not this nonsense like these lip sync Britney Speers things, which are 100% show and no reality. Back then you got it both. 

The only artist I can think of that creates that same kind of thing on stage is Prince, who happens to be another one in my top 3 concerts. Totally worth every penny you have to pay to see them. There are not many bands or performers I can say that about. Most of them I have a price limit on. 

We live in a pretty messed up world where money can make people do some pretty bad things. So whenever there is huge money involved you have to always question motives. I give MJ the highest marks available for being one of the greatest performers of all time. I can't comment on the other stuff as I was not there and again, you have to question the motives and characters involved.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I don't think he was that well. When I think about it, MJ had been looking a little pale the last few years.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Someone finally hit the nail on the head. The very fact that the parents were able to be silenced with money tells me everything I need to know. Would you take money for your childs innocence? No thanks. How does a person that has $500 million suffer if they give $20 million to someone to drop a law suit, real or made up.
> 
> If someone raped or even cuddled up in bed with my child no amount of money would stop me from either beating the snot out of them myself or having them do time, or both.
> 
> Think about it long and hard.





I will label anyone that would trade punishment against a person that hurt their kids in ANY WAY for cash an unfit parent and a second rate human being. 

People that hurt kids are human scum, so are people that will sell their kids well being. 

Michael Jackson? I dont know if he did or didnt do what he was accused of....I have more doubts than I do damns. He may have been a scumbag, I dont know and I never will. Neither will anyone here.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

*Mj*

Just thinking here , if my Dad had pushed me harder, when i was young, maybe i would beable to sing in Key.. 
Rick


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Rick31797 said:


> Just thinking here , if my Dad had pushed me harder, when i was young, maybe i would beable to sing in Key..
> Rick


hey..it's never to late to get a good ass woopin...if you're dad's is not around amymore, sure your wife would gladely take his place..LOL..i know mine loves to do so..LOL...


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

This thread is coming perilously close to a lockdown, which is a shame.

However...

To follow on a previous poster's point, between the passing of James Brown (another person of occasionally dubious personality traits and behaviours), the aging of Bruse Springsteen, and now the passing of Michael Jackson, there aren't many left who are what one might call "electrifying" performers, in the sense of those who can perform musically and move in amazing, near surrealistic ways. Prince probably has a few good years left in him, but those joints can only take so much more punishment before he'll end up like Brown did in later years - essentially vibrating on the spot and "threatening" moves as a substitute for the more spectacular.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

mhammer said:


> This thread is coming perilously close to a lockdown, which is a shame.
> 
> However...
> 
> To follow on a previous poster's point, between the passing of James Brown (another person of occasionally dubious personality traits and behaviours), the aging of Bruse Springsteen, and now the passing of Michael Jackson, there aren't many left who are what one might call "electrifying" performers, in the sense of those who can perform musically and move in amazing, near surrealistic ways. Prince probably has a few good years left in him, but those joints can only take so much more punishment before he'll end up like Brown did in later years - essentially vibrating on the spot and "threatening" moves as a substitute for the more spectacular.



We still have David Coverdale :smile:


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Archer said:


> I will label anyone that would trade punishment against a person that hurt their kids in ANY WAY for cash an unfit parent and a second rate human being. If I just offended anyone I am not sorry and you probably need to be offended.
> 
> 
> People that hurt kids are human scum, so are people that will sell their kids well being.


I agree with everything you are saying, except that I think what some people meant was, the system in the US in particular is so stacked in favour of the rich, that *there was no "trade" of $ to avoid punishment, b/c there was most likely not going to be any punishment meted out anyways.* Although I admire your faith in the legal system, many people have become jaded in the legal system, and for good reason.

*MJ could afford the same could afford the same lawyers or better than OJ, who had a lot more evidence stacked against him, who a yr after the murders was out on the golf course.
Paris Hilton cries and doesnt eat her lunch, and gets to go home from jail after 1 day.*
Clarence Thomas, William Kennedy Smith, Bill Clinton, and so on. 
The odds are stacked heavily against the average person. Thats the message the public receives.

Short of Martha Stewart and Mike Tyson, it seems different rules apply to the rich.
*So I could see how someone might think that a settlement is the closest thing to a win that they are likely to get, and with the least amount of collateral damage to the victim. * Plus, you'd be gettting a lot of pressure from your lawyers whom you probably couldnt afford, to go for the cash, and leave setting examples of justice to someone else.

So many talking big about principles, justice, etc., but when you look down at your kid whos been taking advantage of, and think about what they would have to be put through while chasing justice to the bitter end, with a good chance nothing will become of it, other than adding disappointment, confusion, humiliation, and becoming public enemy number 1 to millions of blinded fans, I wonder what many would really do.

I dunno, I'm just saying its too easy to come to conclusions about people we dont know anything about, based on a few facts.

I personally have more criticism of the parents not for the outcome of the lawsuits, but for why they put their kids in those odd unsupervised circumstances in the first place.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

ne1roc said:


> Not impressive. I wouldn't want you on my team dude.
> 
> What impresses me, is the Goldberg Family in the OJ case. No amount of money would buy them out until OJ was behind bars or financially destroyed.


You did not read what I wrote in full then. 

Sex cases, especially 20 years ago and quite probably now are a VERY different ball of wax than murder ones. Of the many friends whom I have known over the many years that have so far gone to court, the only ones to have succeeded are a girl who would be about 18 now, who's multi year abuser received a sentence of 6 weeks suspended, and a male friend who was part of the priests events in Newfoundland and you know that outcome from the news (and I am not sure if the church has paid out damages yet the last time it was on the news a year or so ago was because they had not). One friend, who was gang raped at a party thrown by her uncle and raped by her uncle as well who went to court with physical evidence of the rape and was not only branded by the court to be a liar she was put into juvenile custody care for bring "false allegations" into the court. Another had to pay the legal costs of the man that raped her. Yet another was called a wanton hussy and asked for it. I could go on, the point being, these cases are NOT usually known for being ones that in any manner succeed in court. The two girls that failed so badly were SO negatively affected by the loss that their lives went WAY over board and out of control from that failing. Winning might be good for the soul (one young lady finally won in court when she was 27. Her 10+ year long abuser only got 4 months and nothing else. Though it was a pittance, she was happy for about a year, then she went on random screaming fits because it was unfair and not enough etc etc etc.), losing can be far more devastating (my friend that was gang raped had her life go so far out of control, last I saw her she was unable to live without filtering her existence through LSD and other hallucinogens).

IN MY LIFE EXPERIENCE YES the settlement is probably the better choice.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Diablo said:


> I agree with everything you are saying, except that I think what some people meant was, the system in the US in particular is so stacked in favour of the rich, that *there was no "trade" of $ to avoid punishment, b/c there was most likely not going to be any punishment meted out anyways.* Although I admire your faith in the legal system, many people have become jaded in the legal system, and for good reason.
> 
> *MJ could afford the same could afford the same lawyers or better than OJ, who had a lot more evidence stacked against him, who a yr after the murders was out on the golf course.
> Paris Hilton cries and doesnt eat her lunch, and gets to go home from jail after 1 day.*
> ...


I agree there is a strong bias....BUT Bill Clinton got a blow job he didnt force himself on anyone. He banged a groupie while he was the president. He wasnt the first Pres to bang a groupie and wont be the last one to get some tail out of the title. Also, a judge had Paris returned to Jail after a few hours. Scott Weiland spent a year behind bars, TOmmy Lee has done time....Celebs do wind up in Jail. OJ finally got his and a real prosecuting team would have put him away in the first place.

In California these buyoffs with the families do NOT prevent the state from using its child protection act (my wife is a former assistant DA in Sacramento county)

If there was a strong enough case then the deals would have meant exactly nothing.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Archer said:


> I agree there is a strong bias....BUT Bill Clinton got a blow job he didnt force himself on anyone. He banged a groupie while he was the president. He wasnt the first Pres to bang a groupie and wont be the last one to get some tail out of the title. Also, a judge had Paris returned to Jail after a few hours. Scott Weiland spent a year behind bars, TOmmy Lee has done time....Celebs do wind up in Jail. OJ finally got his and a real prosecuting team would have put him away in the first place.
> 
> In California these buyoffs with the families do NOT prevent the state from using its child protection act (my wife is a former assistant DA in Sacramento county)
> 
> If there was a strong enough case then the deals would have meant exactly nothing.


Do you mean like in the case of OJ? Everyone knew he was guilty but he got off in criminal court. 

And just because MJ got off in court does not mean he was not guilty. The legal system in Canada and the US has some serious flaws. In my opinion and and the opinion of many others he was guilty but the justice system doesn't always allow itself to put the criminals in jail. Let me ask you; if MJ was still living and asked you if your young son could come over for the weekend, would you let him go? Regards, Flip.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I've been reading and watching way too much about MJ, but what strikes me are 2 things: the over-the-top hyperbole describing his accomplishments, and the apologists for his actions, especially on all the news channels. 

From what I can discern, the man was a head case who never got his personal life together, blaming others for things, excusing his behavior, victimizing employees and others in positions of trust, being irresponsible with his considerable fortune, self-aggrandizing like a dictator, manipulating personal and sexual relationships. He was no role model, yet he seemed to show no outward shame. 

We are what we make of ourselves, and if he was such a tortured soul, he only had himself to blame.

_An aside: A society which allows itself to descend into the kind of celebrity fixated hero-worship that we see here is truly misguided and deluded. 
_
Peace, Mooh.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

*Mj*

Yes the Justice system has it's problems but in most cases the US system is a good one. better than Canada, becuase i believe in the death pentally.

I also agree, that money can set you free.Thats a proven. Watch Court TV Canada, all the people involved in the legal system agree.

Then there are plea deals that make you sick to your stomach, like Carla.

In MJ case i can't say one way or another if he was really guilty.Like i said before MJ was child-like in mind and did some pretty dumb things over the years, and not even think about the backlash he would get.. like hanging the baby over the balcony.. You could ask a 10 yr old to do that and they would know better not too.

As far as leaving my child with him, i would not leave my child with anybody i didnt know very well., and we have never left our kids overnight with anybody other then grandparents.
Most sexual assult happens very close to home.

This thread is really getting no where, people have there own thoughts and some are very harsh.
Rick


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

LOL..funny to see Clinton mentionned in a MJ Thread, come on, the guy got a blowjob from a Fat groupie!...as mentionned, pretty sure every US president did FAR worst, i mean the Holy Grail of US President, aka Kennedy was reported to be a real ladie's man and had more affaires then one could count. 

Getting a Bj is nowhere near in the same ballpark to MJ's behavior, only person Clinton hurted, was his wife realy. 

MJ was not the first Superstar...many were there before him, maybe not to his level, but the beatles, Elvis were damn near it. and i don't recall the Beatles going Apeshit like MJ did. Elvis was exentric, but man, MJ got first place on EVERY weird shit ever done. Best friend was a Chimp..then befriended underage kids all over, slept in an oxygen tank, built neverland, for more plastic surgery then Cher, his whole illness was always treathed as a joke and he used it to get whiter then snowhite, Gets marride to Maie Lisa Presley as an attempt to get his carreer back on track, gets a divorce from Lisa for unconsummated marriage, gets his maid or something like to make him kids!...makes kids ware masks everytime they leave the house..and i don't mean only in public, just OUTSIDE the house, dangles new born over balcony, and we can go on forever like this realy.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

FlipFlopFly said:


> Do you mean like in the case of OJ? Everyone knew he was guilty but he got off in criminal court.
> 
> And just because MJ got off in court does not mean he was not guilty. The legal system in Canada and the US has some serious flaws. In my opinion and and the opinion of many others he was guilty but the justice system doesn't always allow itself to put the criminals in jail. Let me ask you; if MJ was still living and asked you if your young son could come over for the weekend, would you let him go? Regards, Flip.


The notion that the rich can do whatever they want and get away with it isnt really the case. I consider it a primitive way for those without money to keep up their hatred and jealousy of t hose who have money.

Also, not everyone that gets off in court is secretly guilty. OJ got off because the DA's office were completely inept and out of their league. Things like 'the glove' mattered more than many may suspect.

Wouldnt let my kids sleep over with anyone in the music or entertainment biz unsupervised...with one notable exception: Frank Zappa.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Mooh said:


> I've been reading and watching way too much about MJ, but what strikes me are 2 things: the over-the-top hyperbole describing his accomplishments, and the apologists for his actions, especially on all the news channels.
> 
> From what I can discern, the man was a head case who never got his personal life together, blaming others for things, excusing his behavior, victimizing employees and others in positions of trust, being irresponsible with his considerable fortune, self-aggrandizing like a dictator, manipulating personal and sexual relationships. He was no role model, yet he seemed to show no outward shame.
> 
> ...


If it is on CNN etc then it MUST be true.

The extreme good and extreme bad things being mentioned are likely bullshit. The true man lies somewhere in the middle of these extremes.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

al3d said:


> LOL..funny to see Clinton mentionned in a MJ Thread, come on, the guy got a blowjob from a Fat groupie!...as mentionned, pretty sure every US president did FAR worst, i mean the Holy Grail of US President, aka Kennedy was reported to be a real ladie's man and had more affaires then one could count.
> 
> Getting a Bj is nowhere near in the same ballpark to MJ's behavior, only person Clinton hurted, was his wife realy.
> 
> MJ was not the first Superstar...many were there before him, maybe not to his level, but the beatles, Elvis were damn near it. and i don't recall the Beatles going Apeshit like MJ did. Elvis was exentric, but man, MJ got first place on EVERY weird shit ever done. Best friend was a Chimp..then befriended underage kids all over, slept in an oxygen tank, built neverland, for more plastic surgery then Cher, his whole illness was always treathed as a joke and he used it to get whiter then snowhite, Gets marride to Maie Lisa Presley as an attempt to get his carreer back on track, gets a divorce from Lisa for unconsummated marriage, gets his maid or something like to make him kids!...makes kids ware masks everytime they leave the house..and i don't mean only in public, just OUTSIDE the house, dangles new born over balcony, and we can go on forever like this realy.


The baby incident was f'n stupid but doesnt make him a horrible person....makes him a dumbass that needed a few really hard smacks to the head. The masks in public were a brilliant idea and your contention that they wore masks in the house is not backed up by any data...in fact people that were in the circle of Jacksons friends say that the masks were not worn in the house or in private. His skin color? who cares? He isnt the only person to do strange things with plastic surgery...turned himself into plastic but, again, that doesnt make him a demon. 

Elvis got to grow up and see life outside of complete shelter, Elvis was in the Military.....he got to live. The beatles lives pre-band are all well documented, as are the really, seriously f'ed up shit they used to do.

Michael is distinctly different from those examples.

As for what you say about Lisa Marie. Your facts are wrong she wanted to help him to grow up and become a man...when she couldnt she left him. She blames herself for him being dead:

_Friday, June 26, 2009

He Knew.

Years ago Michael and I were having a deep conversation about life in general.

I can't recall the exact subject matter but he may have been questioning me about the circumstances of my Fathers Death.

At some point he paused, he stared at me very intensely and he stated with an almost calm certainty, "I am afraid that I am going to end up like him, the way he did."

I promptly tried to deter him from the idea, at which point he just shrugged his shoulders and nodded almost matter of fact as if to let me know, he knew what he knew and that was kind of that.

14 years later I am sitting here watching on the news an ambulance leaves the driveway of his home, the big gates, the crowds outside the gates, the coverage, the crowds outside the hospital, the Cause of death and what may have led up to it and the memory of this conversation hit me, as did the unstoppable tears.

A predicted ending by him, by loved ones and by me, but what I didn't predict was how much it was going to hurt when it finally happened.

The person I failed to help is being transferred right now to the LA County Coroners office for his Autopsy.

All of my indifference and detachment that I worked so hard to achieve over the years has just gone into the bowels of hell and right now I am gutted.

I am going to say now what I have never said before because I want the truth out there for once.

Our relationship was not "a sham" as is being reported in the press. It was an unusual relationship yes, where two unusual people who did not live or know a "Normal life" found a connection, perhaps with some suspect timing on his part. Nonetheless, I do believe he loved me as much as he could love anyone and I loved him very much.

I wanted to "save him" I wanted to save him from the inevitable which is what has just happened.

His family and his loved ones also wanted to save him from this as well but didn't know how and this was 14 years ago. We all worried that this would be the outcome then.

At that time, In trying to save him, I almost lost myself.

He was an incredibly dynamic force and power that was not to be underestimated.

When he used it for something good, It was the best and when he used it for something bad, It was really, REALLY bad.

Mediocrity was not a concept that would even for a second enter Michael Jackson's being or actions.

I became very ill and emotionally/ spiritually exhausted in my quest to save him from certain self-destructive behavior and from the awful vampires and leeches he would always manage to magnetize around him.

I was in over my head while trying.

I had my children to care for, I had to make a decision.

The hardest decision I have ever had to make, which was to walk away and let his fate have him, even though I desperately loved him and tried to stop or reverse it somehow.

After the Divorce, I spent a few years obsessing about him and what I could have done different, in regret.

Then I spent some angry years at the whole situation.

At some point, I truly became Indifferent, until now.

As I sit here overwhelmed with sadness, reflection and confusion at what was my biggest failure to date, watching on the news almost play by play The exact Scenario I saw happen on August 16th, 1977 happening again right now with Michael (A sight I never wanted to see again) just as he predicted, I am truly, truly gutted.

Any ill experience or words I have felt towards him in the past has just died inside of me along with him.

He was an amazing person and I am lucky to have gotten as close to him as I did and to have had the many experiences and years that we had together.

I desperately hope that he can be relieved from his pain, pressure and turmoil now.

He deserves to be free from all of that and I hope he is in a better place or will be.

I also hope that anyone else who feels they have failed to help him can be set free because he hopefully finally is.

The World is in shock but somehow he knew exactly how his fate would be played out some day more than anyone else knew, and he was right.


I really needed to say this right now, thanks for listening.


~LMP
_


That is a post she put up on her myspace. People like to speculate on their relationship but everyone that actually knew them said it was a completely real, albeit odd, marriage. LMP has been saying for years that she never got over Michael Jackson.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

the ebay freaks are in full swing as well. You can now get yourself a used jackson concert ticket for $7500 US

Jackson Ticket


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> the ebay freaks are in full swing as well. You can now get yourself a used jackson concert ticket for $7500 US
> 
> Jackson Ticket


and the worst thing..some idiot will pay for it.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

*Mj*

I would hate to be accuse of sexual asault, as in the world we live in you are guilty before you are innocent.

A guy in our town was charged a few years ago and he was found not guilty, but too this day people will see him, and not know his name , and not remember the outcome of the case but they do remember he was charge was sexual assult and that is his label, from now until he leaves the earth, and forgotten.
The public will find you guilty everytime.


As for MJ, i here there is a Family Doctor on the run.. he gave him a shot of demerol ( pain killer). The police has taken his car but if the tests show that this drug caused his heart to go into arrest, then the Drs in deep crappola.
Rick


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

It was asked before about the Beatles songs that Michael (and now Sony) owns or owned, well here's something that was posted on January 5th of this year: http://www.gigwise.com/news/48518/M...-McCartney-The-Beatles-Back-Catalogue-In-Will

And in case you don't believe it, one day later on a Canadian :smilie_flagge17:website: http://www.spinner.ca/2009/01/06/jackson-leaving-beatles-songs-to-mccartney-in-will/

I only have one more thing to add. I'm seeing some hostility, insults and name calling in this thread and it bothers me. I don't want to see this thread get locked so let's try to keep things classy.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Much like the phrase "harassment", the term "sexual assault" covers an incredibly broad spectrum of behaviour and impacts. Unfortunately, some here, and many elsewhere, seem to think that everything lumped under each heading is identical in its severity. I'm not trying to whitewash anything, but I hasten to remind folks that incidents as benign as a kindergarten boy attempting to kiss a female classmate have resulted in "sexual assault" charges being laid and upheld. Now, obviously the law distinguishes between degrees of severity, but the terms used to describe it are unfortunately the same for brutal rape as they are for a brief inappropriate touch that left the "touchee" a little bewildered about what the heck THAT was all about, muttering "ewww" to themselves, but otherwise unharmed and thoroughly able to continue with their lives. The law is, to my mind, and that of many others, quite appropriate in deeming such behaviour as crossing the line and _potentially_ placing children at risk for worse. But many of the accusations here verge on assuming that Mr. Jackson is guilty of the absolute very worst and most heinous that falls under that heading. Was he weird? Yeah. A little unsettling to the parents of kids who knew him? Probably. But GG Allin with curls? Not by a long shot.

It is the case that a great many celebrities are "damaged goods". Indeed, it is their willingness to be impulsive, and hunger for approval, that makes them so appealing to the very industry that feeds off them. The industry seeks out such people. In Jackson's case, here was a kid whose overwhelming desire to be like his idols had him perfecting James Brown and Jackie Wilson moves before grade 5. That's cute to some, but let me ask you, if your 8 year-old kid spent all day imitating Frank Sinatra or Freddie Mercury in front of the mirror instead of playing with other kids, wouldn't you worry just a little? Wouldn't you start thinking that maybe he oughta spend more time with kids his own age? The people around him, his family, managers, and all the rest, only saw him as having worth WHEN he was able to act that way.

Yeah, we should expect people to make the right decisions all the time, but the world is chock full of kids who have simply never seen a "right decision" growing up, and wouldn't know one if it bit them on the ass and drew blood.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2009)

mhammer said:


> Yeah, we should expect people to make the right decisions all the time, but the world is chock full of kids who have simply never seen a "right decision" growing up, and wouldn't know one if it bit them on the ass and drew blood.


Looking at his father and the way they were raised it's a wonder he was able to function at even a semi-normal level.

All well said Mark.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Rick31797 said:


> As for MJ, i here there is a Family Doctor on the run.. he gave him a shot of demerol ( pain killer). The police has taken his car but if the tests show that this drug caused his heart to go into arrest, then the Drs in deep crappola.
> Rick



THe Dr isnt on the run. He is cooperating with investigators.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Mooh said:


> I've been reading and watching way too much about MJ, but what strikes me are 2 things: the over-the-top hyperbole describing his accomplishments, and the apologists for his actions, especially on all the news channels.
> 
> From what I can discern, the man was a head case who never got his personal life together, blaming others for things, excusing his behavior, victimizing employees and others in positions of trust, being irresponsible with his considerable fortune, self-aggrandizing like a dictator, manipulating personal and sexual relationships. He was no role model, yet he seemed to show no outward shame.
> 
> ...


+1 Well put. 
One day he's an aging, creepy, freaky, financially ruined laughing stock of the entertainment world, the next he's a dead saint who could moonwalk on water and bring us all to the musical promised land.

i'm not in favour of speaking ill of the dead, but I also dont think his passing should completely wipe away all of what was known of him, much of it, unfavourable.

Speaking objectively, I liked some of his songs, although I believe he peaked in the mid-90's and was pretty much washed up after that. I'm not particularly moved by the recent events, because I think he died muscially, in the mid-90's, and based on his deteriorating physical condition, his passing was not completely shocking. Did anyone really picture him living into his 80's???

Looking back, I'll remember MJ for some great dance hits and groundbreaking videos during the MTV years, and on the negative side, ridiculous gimicky outfits/costumes (red leather jackets, shiny gloves, flood pants, zippers and fake military accessories) and a bizarre and often highly questionable personal life, shrouded in mystery and lies (does anyone see any resemblance in any of those kids to him?). 
Oh ya, and the moonwalk 


As to my comments on Clinton that seemed to strike a chord, I agree what he did was not illegal, and still see him as one of the best presidents in history. BUT the reason why I cite him in my post, is because he among many celebs in recent years set a terrible example for society, is the LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY and honesty. Since then we've seen inappropriate or illegal celeb behaviour blamed on every little thing, sexual addictions, even "wardrobe malfunctions", but never admitting any sort of accountability or responsibility for their actions. Things just "happened", therefore the celebs shouldnt face any sort of judgement or punishment for their acts.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

I can pretty much guarantee that Hillary ripped Bill's nuts off, showed him them with a warning that read like "these are mine f"er" then called a surgeon to reattach them.

He paid for the scandal.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Archer said:


> The notion that the rich can do whatever they want and get away with it isnt really the case. I consider it a primitive way for those without money to keep up their hatred and jealousy of t hose who have money.
> 
> Also, not everyone that gets off in court is secretly guilty. OJ got off because the DA's office were completely inept and out of their league. Things like 'the glove' mattered more than many may suspect.
> 
> Wouldnt let my kids sleep over with anyone in the music or entertainment biz unsupervised...with one notable exception: Frank Zappa.


I didn't say ALL the rich and I didn't say EVERYONE that gets off in court is secretly guilty. I only mentioned OJ and MJ. Your post is an over generalization.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

mhammer said:


> Much like the phrase "harassment", the term "sexual assault" covers an incredibly broad spectrum of behaviour and impacts. Unfortunately, some here, and many elsewhere, seem to think that everything lumped under each heading is identical in its severity. I'm not trying to whitewash anything, but I hasten to remind folks that incidents as benign as a kindergarten boy attempting to kiss a female classmate have resulted in "sexual assault" charges being laid and upheld. Now, obviously the law distinguishes between degrees of severity, but the terms used to describe it are unfortunately the same for brutal rape as they are for a brief inappropriate touch that left the "touchee" a little bewildered about what the heck THAT was all about, muttering "ewww" to themselves, but otherwise unharmed and thoroughly able to continue with their lives. The law is, to my mind, and that of many others, quite appropriate in deeming such behaviour as crossing the line and _potentially_ placing children at risk for worse. But many of the accusations here verge on assuming that Mr. Jackson is guilty of the absolute very worst and most heinous that falls under that heading. Was he weird? Yeah. A little unsettling to the parents of kids who knew him? Probably. But GG Allin with curls? Not by a long shot.
> 
> It is the case that a great many celebrities are "damaged goods". Indeed, it is their willingness to be impulsive, and hunger for approval, that makes them so appealing to the very industry that feeds off them. The industry seeks out such people. In Jackson's case, here was a kid whose overwhelming desire to be like his idols had him perfecting James Brown and Jackie Wilson moves before grade 5. That's cute to some, but let me ask you, if your 8 year-old kid spent all day imitating Frank Sinatra or Freddie Mercury in front of the mirror instead of playing with other kids, wouldn't you worry just a little? Wouldn't you start thinking that maybe he oughta spend more time with kids his own age? The people around him, his family, managers, and all the rest, only saw him as having worth WHEN he was able to act that way.
> 
> Yeah, we should expect people to make the right decisions all the time, but the world is chock full of kids who have simply never seen a "right decision" growing up, and wouldn't know one if it bit them on the ass and drew blood.


AND add to that, this same person could never ever go anywhere without being recongised. EVER Much like Elivis. Wouldn't that make you a little wierd? Not to mention that any parent who would willingly leave their children with someone so very strange, then ask for the big payout? sounds like some sort of setup to me. I"m not absolving him of anything, but you have to admit the Man was a genius, lets just allow him to rest in peace, he never had much in life.


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## Younggun (Jul 2, 2008)

Wow! This turned out to be a very controversial Thread. I was never a big fan of any of his music but have to acknowledge that he enjoyed considerable success and admiration from the masses. I make no comment on his personal life as I don't believe I have enough real reliable information in regards to that. Essentially I'm indifferent to the whole MJ life/death situation. However I do have great sympathy for his family and for those who truly loved him.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i was never a fan, although i did see him perform live in concert many years ago, and he was truly phenomenal. as well, my brother worked on his crew for a few weeks, although he never got to meet him. 

there is no question that he re-wrote the book on pop music forever.

-dh





Diablo said:


> +1 Well put.
> One day he's an aging, creepy, freaky, financially ruined laughing stock of the entertainment world, the next he's a dead saint who could moonwalk on water and bring us all to the musical promised land.
> 
> i'm not in favour of speaking ill of the dead, but I also dont think his passing should completely wipe away all of what was known of him, much of it, unfavourable.
> ...


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I do wonder how the passage of time will affect the memories of him. The memory...um, history...of music may record his contributions more accurately than the current hyperbole. In my mind he was no Frank Zappa, Ella Fitzgerald, Jimi Hendrix, J.S.Bach, Glenn Gould, or Django Reinhardt, all of whom, I suppose, had eccentricities. I suspect that he will be the longest footnote in history, rather than the influence many believe. Time will tell.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Mooh said:


> I do wonder how the passage of time will affect the memories of him. The memory...um, history...of music may record his contributions more accurately than the current hyperbole. In my mind he was no Frank Zappa, Ella Fitzgerald, Jimi Hendrix, J.S.Bach, Glenn Gould, or Django Reinhardt, all of whom, I suppose, had eccentricities. I suspect that he will be the longest footnote in history, rather than the influence many believe. Time will tell.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


Agreed. 
All except the inclusion of Reinhardt on that list, who I have to admit, I have never heard of outside of this forum, and I'm no teenager, so its a heck of a compliment to give the guy...esp. considering Elvis, Beatles, Muddy Waters, Johnny Cash, BB King etc. didnt make the cut 
But its your list, after all


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I was never really sure how much of the greatness of his best work was Quincy Jones' doing or Jackson's. I'm not taking anything away from Jackson himself, but Quincy Jones had a VERY humbling track record as arranger and producer long before "Off the Wall" and "Thriller" (hell, before Jackson was even born), so it would be naive to think he just went "Yes, Mr. Jackson" and twiddled knobs.

Personally, I think Jackson will leave a much bigger footprint, historically, than Madonna will, though perhaps not quite as big a footprint as James Brown. brown's contribution was principally musical, while Jackson's was more in the realm of how music is to be _experienced_. While several decades of Motown taught us that some music is lessened in the absence of choreography, the idea of choreography as *essential* to pop music was brought to its zenith by Jackson. As essential to pop as Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly made dancing to film.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I was never a big fan but I liked him when he was young; of course, so was I. However, when he started getting weird, I changed the station.


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## Beatles (Feb 7, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> I don't think he was that well. When I think about it, MJ had been looking a little pale the last few years.


Actually he died of food poisoning......he ate a twelve year old weiner


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Actually MJ got his wish. You remember in the movie Men In Black II MJ wanted to join, but was cut off by Zed? Well, they finally let him in. Yes the MIB movies are a diversion - because they really exist. But as you know, when you join the MIB all records of your previous existence must be erased. But with such a public profile, they needed to do it different. So the MIB faked his death, just like they did with Elvis. Except that Elvis was already an alien and he just wanted to go home. So they used the Clonamatic III from the planet Zaknodorf to create a freahly dead clone, just like they did with Elvis. The MIB make sure there was just enough residual demerol and stuff for a tox screen, etc. They also created enough MJ impersonators, so that if he was ever spotted on the street in his black suit and shades - he would just be taken for another impersonator. If anyone get too suspicious, I guess they could just neurolyze them.

This is what really happened to Michael Jackson.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

The Staples Center parking lot is probably still half full and there is at least 30 of the memorial programs listed on eBay already. It's all about the money freinds.


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## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

Breaking News! Michael Jackson is still dead!


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

I guess a few children finally got a good nights sleep. One less child-molester in the world now.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

*Mj*

I don't think its all about the money, the tickets where free. but of course Greed sets in and people that don't even care if they go, try to make a fast buck.
Ebay was pulling off the ads last night.One person wanting 30,000 another wanting one million.

It was a nice tribute today, not a big fan of MJ's but i forgot how good this guy really is.\He may be dead, but his spirit will live on forever.

Rick


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

danbo said:


> I guess a few children finally got a good nights sleep. One less child-molester in the world now.


YOu know? I don't know if he did or he didn't. But let me tell you something, if someone molested MY daughter? There's no amount of money in the world that would make it ok.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

danbo said:


> I guess a few children finally got a good nights sleep. One less child-molester in the world now.


...interesting _opinion_. it IS an _opinion_, is it not? i've noticed a lot people share your _opinion_. not the kind of people i generally take seriously, much less their _opinions_. oddly enough, these very same people expect their _opinions_ to be accepted as fact. like the big lie that, if repeated often enough, eventually gets accepted as truth, because people think, oh yeah, i read that somewhere....must be true, then.

is that what happened to you?

-dh


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...paris jackson......they've played her goodbye to her dad several times on the radio. i haven't been able to listen to it. its just too heartbreaking. i'm just not that strong.

-dh


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...paris jackson......they've played her goodbye to her dad several times on the radio. i haven't been able to listen to it. its just too heartbreaking. i'm just not that strong.
> 
> -dh


That was truly a heartbreaking moment.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

danbo said:


> I guess a few children finally got a good nights sleep. One less child-molester in the world now.


We live in a free society. That gives me the right to accuse you of anything I want, publicly. But then I or someone has to prove those allegations. I have not seen that in the case of MJ. I am the first to say he went a little weird there for awhile. Certainly made some bad choices along the way. But he was a prime target for that kind of thing (accusations) and I believe that it was a large part of his untimely passing. Again, none of us can say what kind of person he really was, none of us has ever spent any time with him. We go only by what we read and see on TV and that, in any respect, is just guessing.

I know that in terms of a life he may have been rich beyond any of our dreams. But to not even be able to leave your own home to run to the corner store without being hounded can't be much of a life. Fame? you can have it.

I will bet you my Heritage Gary Moore that when it's said and done that Debbie Rowe takes more money to sign off (again) on those kids. Give it a month or two. Those are facts, documented and real. You will not see the Jackson family turn those kids away and they are not even his biological kids. As for MJ the entertainer and humanitarian? He was one of the best in our time. Thanks for giving your life up for the entertainment of the rest of us Michael.

[youtube=Option]gRsM_rU_80g[/youtube]

1971: "Got to Be There" #4 
1972: "Rockin Robin" #2 
1972: "Ben" #1 
1979: "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough" #1 
1980: "Rock With You" #1 
1980: "Off The Wall" #10 
1980: "She's Out Of My Life" #10 
1983: "The Girl Is Mine" (with Paul McCartney) #2 
1983: "Billie Jean" #1 
1983: "Beat It" #1 
1983: "Wanna Be Startin' Somethin'" #5 
1984: "Human Nature" #7 
1984: "P.Y.T." #10 
1984: "Say Say Say" (with Paul McCartney) #1 
1984: "Thriller" #4 
1985: "We Are The World" #1 
1987: "I Just Can't Stop Loving You" (with Siedah Garrett) #1 
1987: "Bad" #1 
1988: "The Way You Make Me Feel" #1 
1988: "Man In The Mirror" #1 
1988: "Dirty Diana" #1 
1989: "Smooth Criminal" #7 
1991: "Black or White" #1 
1992: "Remember The Time" #3 
1992: "In The Closet" #6 
1993: "Will You Be There" #7 
1995: "Scream"(with Janet Jackson) #5 
1995: "You Are Not Alone" #1 
2001: "You Rock My World" #10


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

This is just an observation, but I'm struck by how personally people are taking this.

Anyone here ever met MJ? Anyone here ever been within ten feet of him?


Yes, he was a great talent. That's undeniable, whether you're a fan or not. I was a fan of the J5 WAAAAY back but really I haven't enjoyed anything since then.

But for people who have no relationship with him other than listening to his music, watching the videos or maybe attending a concert, to get all emotional over this just stymies me.

It seems all out of proportion to me.


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...interesting _opinion_. it IS an _opinion_, is it not? i've noticed a lot people share your _opinion_. not the kind of people i generally take seriously, much less their _opinions_. oddly enough, these very same people expect their _opinions_ to be accepted as fact. like the big lie that, if repeated often enough, eventually gets accepted as truth, because people think, oh yeah, i read that somewhere....must be true, then.
> 
> is that what happened to you?
> 
> -dh


Dave,,he's not that much of a deep thinker. Just another mindless parrot, following the opinions of the masses. I could sum it up in much simpler terms that he could understand, but it would get me banned. He is, just like an opinon, the other thing we all have one of.

CT.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Milkman said:


> This is just an observation, but I'm struck by how personally people are taking this.
> 
> Anyone here ever met MJ? Anyone here ever been within ten feet of him?
> 
> ...


My wife and I waded through 17 #$%*ing minutes of MJ detritus the other night on the CTV Nightly News. Finally, the second to last item regarding the deaths of 140 Uigers in NW China, the whole reason I tuned in in the first place, was reported. Love Mr. Jackson or not, his death and the circumstances surrounding it are a sad showbiz cliché. People can't get enough. Just as they couldn't get enough of it with Elvis. For me, it borders on dangerous and is certainly tasteless to relegate the deaths of so many to the final momemts of the news program. People who almost certainly had much greater hardships and far less hopes and dreams than the late Mr. Jackson ever endured.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Rugburn said:


> My wife and I waded through 17 #$%*ing minutes of MJ detritus the other night on the CTV Nightly News. Finally, the second to last item regarding the deaths of 140 Uigers in NW China, the whole reason I tuned in in the first place, was reported. Love Mr. Jackson or not, his death and the circumstances surrounding it are a sad showbiz cliché. People can't get enough. Just as they couldn't get enough of it with Elvis. For me, it borders on dangerous and is certainly tasteless to relegate the deaths of so many to the final momemts of the news program. People who almost certainly had much greater hardships and far less hopes and dreams than the late Mr. Jackson ever endured.


Just wait till the sightings start! kkjuw


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Rugburn said:


> My wife and I waded through 17 #$%*ing minutes of MJ detritus the other night on the CTV Nightly News. Finally, the second to last item regarding the deaths of 140 Uigers in NW China, the whole reason I tuned in in the first place, was reported. Love Mr. Jackson or not, his death and the circumstances surrounding it are a sad showbiz cliché. People can't get enough. Just as they couldn't get enough of it with Elvis. For me, it borders on dangerous and is certainly tasteless to relegate the deaths of so many to the final momemts of the news program. People who almost certainly had much greater hardships and far less hopes and dreams than the late Mr. Jackson ever endured.



I can dig it.

In a thread awhile back about Swine Flu, the need for a big news event to supplant the overblown flu panic was discussed.

This is it.


I must be a pod or something, because I'm embarrassed by the tears flowing from complete strangers.

Yes, it's a tribute to the impact MJ had on people, but more so in my opinion, it's a reflection on the morbid curiosity and the desire to grieve over ANYthing that many people seem to have.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

*Mj*

I don't believe in degrading a person at death, There is a time and place for " most everything, but now is not the time.

Why do people dwell on the negitive.. Why don't they see, even though MJ was strange and did some pretty weird things, he did so much good.

I didn't realize, he is in the book of world records for donating to so many orginzsations.
Even in death his will states 20 % will go to Charites.. 20 % is alot of millions.

He was always in the camera, and if a Camera was on you every time you where in your home in front of a window or out and about, 
Somewhere, sometime, they would pick up on something weird that you did, and it would be all over the world, for weeks and there's nothing you could do about it. That alone would drive me crazy.

What MJ did on stage was nothing short of amazing.After seeing all the footage i wish i had seen one of his concerts.

Rick


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Rick31797 said:


> I don't believe in degrading a person at death, There is a time and place for " most everything, but now is not the time.
> 
> Why do people dwell on the negitive.. Why don't they see, even though MJ was strange and did some pretty weird things, he did so much good.
> 
> ...


I don't believe in a highly successful and publicity happy pop icon's passing obfuscating dire and truly heartbreaking occurences. But let me make it clear that I don't blame MJ, just everybody else. By this rationale, I should feel sorry for the Rolling Stones, The Beatles, Britany Spears, Brad Pitt and all the rest.......save me Jebus.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Milkman said:


> I can dig it.
> 
> In a thread awhile back about Swine Flu, the need for a big news event to supplant the overblown flu panic was discussed.
> 
> ...


I agree with you in terms of the level some people go. Outright crying is probably taking it a bit too far. Then again, I have never understood crying over any star, alive or dead. I guess some people are just more emotional than others. Some people are always looking for the next thing to latch on to. Perhaps to fill some void. These efforts are typically short lived and they move on to the next thing pretty quickly. A month ago there must have been 200 Tori Stafford Facebook pages pledging "we will keep your memory alive forever". Although sincere and meaning well to begin with, time passes and new things replace the old. A year from now the MJ story will have died down and all the court cases will have been concluded. Then it's on to the next big event.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I agree with you in terms of the level some people go. Outright crying is probably taking it a bit too far. Then again, I have never understood crying over any star, alive or dead. I guess some people are just more emotional than others. Some people are always looking for the next thing to latch on to. Perhaps to fill some void. These efforts are typically short lived and they move on to the next thing pretty quickly. A month ago there must have been 200 Tori Stafford Facebook pages pledging "we will keep your memory alive forever". Although sincere and meaning well to begin with, time passes and new things replace the old. A year from now the MJ story will have died down and all the court cases will have been concluded. Then it's on to the next big event.


I think you understand where I'm coming from. I mean no disrespect to MJ or to his family.

And yes, that's a good observation about Tori Stafford. I was asked to do a free benefit (provide sound and lights for an entire day) this past Saturday for a benefit for Child Find in memory of this little girl. 

I gave them a great price but they wanted the gear and my services for free. I do three benefits each year for cancer research. That's the cause I have chosen. 

As you pointed out, people latch on to things and get carried away with their emotions.


When it comes to MJ however, I don't see this dying down so quickly. In fact I would be surprised if we don't see an impersonator industry similar to the Elvis thing spring up.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Milkman said:


> I think you understand where I'm coming from. I mean no disrespect to MJ or to his family.
> 
> And yes, that's a good observation about Tori Stafford. I was asked to do a free benefit (provide sound and lights for an entire day) this past Saturday for a benefit for Child Find in memory of this little girl.
> 
> ...


I support your decision on the benefit. You can only go so far. 

On the MJ impersonator thing.... I never even thought of that but I bet you are dead on. Next time we visit Vegas I am sure there will be at least one full time act going.


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## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I support your decision on the benefit. You can only go so far.
> 
> On the MJ impersonator thing.... I never even thought of that but I bet you are dead on. Next time we visit Vegas I am sure there will be at least one full time act going.


Doesn't' that already exist - i.e. Usher, Timberlake, the rest of MJ's bro's and sisters :0)

ok - I'll shut up now


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I just watched what that asshat Bill O'Rielly had to say about the whole thing on turning points and I actually agreed with most of what he had to say. I won't post it as it may be offensive to some, but he hit the nail on the head for the most part and I CANNOT STAND BILL O'RIELLY or Fox News for that matter. You can look for it on youtube if you so wish, but I wouldn't bother watching past 3:15 mark.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Starbuck said:


> I can't believe I'm going to say this, but I just watched what that asshat Bill O'Rielly had to say about the whole thing on turning points and I actually agreed with most of what he had to say. I won't post it as it may be offensive to some, but he hit the nail on the head for the most part and I CANNOT STAND BILL O'RIELLY or Fox News for that matter. You can look for it on youtube if you so wish, but I wouldn't bother watching past 3:15 mark.


He is bringing up some very good points. The Al Sharpton piece at the memorial was clearly just an opportunity for "him" to advance his own agenda. He and Jesse Jackson both attach themselves to any issue that can be used to advance their own agenda's. I don't mind so much that they are standing up and trying to battle racism, thats a good thing. But sometimes they will distort the facts to gain that position.

O'Reilly points out the flip flopping by the media. Well thats natural and becoming worse every year. Thats why you can never go with what you read and see as total fact. For the media it's all about the ratings and they will stoop to some pretty low levels to get them. 

I guess you have to break down the whole MJ thing into several parts. He was one of the greatest entertainers of our time. He was someone's brother, son and father. Lastly, the private life. This is where it gets so messy. A lot of bizarre activity, allegations and possibly lies mixed with some truths. That part is hard to figure out.

The black vs white thing is pretty wild. I said years ago that he was trying to turn himself white on purpose. Many people I know take the vitiligo story as gospel. I still say he did it intentionally. Why? I have no idea. He certainly lived a priviledged life. One that cannot be compared to some of the horror that black people have had to endure over the years trying to fight for equality.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Sharpton is not on my Christmas card list. I think he's a self serving media hound with strong anti white tendencies.


But hey, that's just my impression.


Too many people are lining up the grab a piece of the spotlight resulting from Jackson's death.


Shameful really.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Sharpton is not on my Christmas card list. I think he's a self serving media hound with strong anti white tendencies.
> 
> 
> But hey, that's just my impression.
> ...


Yes it's nothing short of tawdry, just wait for all the informercials for Commerative collections, from plates to coins to the full discography, there are lots and lots of vultures out there.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Rugburn said:


> My wife and I waded through 17 #$%*ing minutes of MJ detritus the other night on the CTV Nightly News. Finally, the second to last item regarding the deaths of 140 Uigers in NW China, the whole reason I tuned in in the first place, was reported. Love Mr. Jackson or not, his death and the circumstances surrounding it are a sad showbiz cliché. People can't get enough. Just as they couldn't get enough of it with Elvis. For me, it borders on dangerous and is certainly tasteless to relegate the deaths of so many to the final momemts of the news program. People who almost certainly had much greater hardships and far less hopes and dreams than the late Mr. Jackson ever endured.


...i have heard that the media has been going overboard (hey, don't they always?) with MJs death. unfortunately, i missed it all because i won't watch television or read newspapers. i'm not a huge fan of celebrity worship, either. from listening to talk radio, however, i am aware that the michael jackson bashers are obsessed with all the media coverage - they eat it up.

-dh


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Wow this site has it's own little Gossip corner too?


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

david henman said:


> ...i have heard that the media has been going overboard (hey, don't they always?) with MJs death. unfortunately, i missed it all because i won't watch television or read newspapers. i'm not a huge fan of celebrity worship, either. from listening to talk radio, however, i am aware that the michael jackson bashers are obsessed with all the media coverage - they eat it up.
> 
> -dh


Yes, there's no question that the MJ media blitz is secretly a dream come true for his detractors. I felt the same way about the OJ trial, Princess Diana's car accident and the 9/11 trajedy. Openly dismissive of the media orgies that ensued, all the while keeping my delight and intrigue closeted.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Rugburn said:


> Yes, there's no question that the MJ media blitz is secretly a dream come true for his detractors. I felt the same way about the OJ trial, Princess Diana's car accident and the 9/11 trajedy. Openly dismissive of the media orgies that ensued, all the while keeping my delight and intrigue closeted.


...hey, its my favourite osmonds fan!

-dh


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

The media seems to shine the spotlight on those who have always drawn media attention to themselves through their lives , be it good but mostly bad ( everyone loves dirty laundry ).

We have lost many performers and artists of late that have hardly got a mention on the news because they lived private lives outside of who they were so they were not interesting subjects that the media could play on.
MJ did some great things as a performer but the media played his passing to the max.....way overdone IMHO , he deserved recognition but not to the level they raised it to . 

Yes , we will see all kinds of items market now in the memory of MJ.......a big ca$h grab kqoct


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

One sad thing is that they will spend hundreds of thousands now in testing and manpower to "get down to the bottom" of why he died. Unfortunately, if it was one of our family members the case would have been closed.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> One sad thing is that they will spend hundreds of thousands now in testing and manpower to "get down to the bottom" of why he died. Unfortunately, if it was one of our family members the case would have been closed.


Money talks. It provides a higher level of "justice" and medical care, particularly in the USA.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

nitehawk55 said:


> The media seems to shine the spotlight on those who have always drawn media attention to themselves through their lives , be it good but mostly bad ( everyone loves dirty laundry ).
> 
> We have lost many performers and artists of late that have hardly got a mention on the news because they lived private lives outside of who they were so they were not interesting subjects that the media could play on.
> MJ did some great things as a performer but the media played his passing to the max.....way overdone IMHO , he deserved recognition but not to the level they raised it to .
> ...


In a way, its almost a fitting end...his whole life was a media spectacle, and he perpetuated it at every opportunity (the bizarre persona, garrish costumes even when in public and NOT performing, plastic surgery obsession, breakdancing on top of a car minutes before going into a courthouse, highly publicized outlandish purchases of exotic wildlife and elephant man bones, and the list goes on...), so why should his passing be any different?

This wasnt a guy who got rich/famous and then moved to Muskoka where he went about normal daily activities in public in a plain t-shirt, ball cap and sunglasses.
He didnt want to be normal even if he could.
At some point, Michael jackson became a character/cartoon he played 24/7 and lost the identity of who he was born as.
To me, its as if Johnny Depp started walking around sea towns wild-eyed and soaked in rum in full pirate garb, while talking in an accent and flailing a sabre. Oh wait...


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

Diablo said:


> In a way, its almost a fitting end...his whole life was a media spectacle, and he perpetuated it at every opportunity (the bizarre persona, garrish costumes even when in public and NOT performing, plastic surgery obsession, breakdancing on top of a car minutes before going into a courthouse, highly publicized outlandish purchases of exotic wildlife and elephant man bones, and the list goes on...), so why should his passing be any different?
> 
> This wasnt a guy who got rich/famous and then moved to Muskoka where he went about normal daily activities in public in a plain t-shirt, ball cap and sunglasses.
> He didnt want to be normal even if he could.
> ...


Well said!


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Diablo said:


> To me, its as if Johnny Depp started walking around sea towns wild-eyed and soaked in rum in full pirate garb, while talking in an accent and flailing a sabre. Oh wait...


Not THAT I wouls truly, love to see!!! And yes very well said and true enough isn't it? He likly would have loved the garishness ofthe spectacle..


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Diablo said:


> He didnt want to be normal even if he could.


....that is an "opinion", yes?



Diablo said:


> At some point, Michael jackson became a character/cartoon he played 24/7 and lost the identity of who he was born as.


...yes, that was sad to watch. i saw him perform back in the early 80s. he was a damn good looking man, and an absolutely brilliant entertainer.

-dh


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

david henman said:


> ....that is an "opinion", yes?
> 
> 
> -dh


Yes, that is my opinion, as is most of what I write (except for what I plagiarize)...much the same as everyone else on this site. A bit obvious isnt it?:zzz: After all, this is an internet discussion forum, not a court of law.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

In spite of MJs whining that he couldn't lead a normal life, he definitely sought and reveled in the media spotlight.


He got what he wanted and then bitched about it.


Sorry, but I can't feel any sympathy for him in that sense.


I take no pleasure in his death, but enough with the poor little rich boy stuff. He never had to deal with the day to day problems and worries the rest of do.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Diablo said:


> Yes, that is my opinion, as is most of what I write (except for what I plagiarize)...much the same as everyone else on this site. A bit obvious isnt it?:zzz: After all, this is an internet discussion forum, not a court of law.


...exactly, and kudos for having your feet planted firmly.

i've encountered so many that expect to have their _opinions_ about mj accepted as fact.

-dh


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

david henman said:


> ...
> i've encountered so many that expect to have their _opinions_ about mj accepted as fact.
> 
> -dh


......or The Osmonds for that matter.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Rugburn said:


> ......or The Osmonds for that matter.


...don't be trashin' the osmonds, dude. 

they rawk!

:rockon2:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...don't be trashin' the osmonds, dude.
> 
> they rawk!
> 
> :rockon2:


I liked the Osmond Brothers.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

Let the jokes carry on!

If you hear a "loud rumble" tonight in the sky, don't worry. It's not thunder. It's Elvis beatin' the shit out of Michael Jackson for marrying his daughter.


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## Luke98 (Mar 4, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I liked the Osmond Brothers.


Oxymoron.

You mean the Allman Brothers :smilie_flagge17:


Michael Jackson's kids were apparently purchased for four million by his family, on the condition that debbie rowe never attempts to gain custody.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Latest news is that the death is now being investigated as a homicide. They are going after that doctor that was apparently doping him with IV's.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Latest news is that the death is now being investigated as a homicide. They are going after that doctor that was apparently doping him with IV's.


Ya figure? .... he went and got a lawyer first...


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Last week, the top five selling CDs on amazon.ca were ALL MJ.


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## Luke98 (Mar 4, 2007)

Robert1950 said:


> Last week, the top five selling CDs on amazon.ca were ALL MJ.


Because all it takes to come back into the spotlight is to die


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Luke98 said:


> Because all it takes to come back into the spotlight is to die


...hmmm...interesting idea.

is there a downside?

:smile:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Luke98 said:


> Oxymoron.
> 
> You mean the Allman Brothers :smilie_flagge17:
> 
> ...


I can handle the Allman Brothers in small doses.

I'm struggling to find the oxymoron in my post though.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Luke98 said:


> Because all it takes to come back into the spotlight is to die


This is in no way a new phenomenon. This is my favourite expression of the insanity that follows the death of someone famous.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08Zc17YQzdk

The first three verses, I think it opens the topic well.



> At the record company meeting
> On their hands - a dead star
> And oh, the plans they weave
> And oh, the sickening greed
> ...


I do not, never did, never will, in any way like MJ or pretty much 99.999% of any of the works of any point of the entire sum careers of the entire J family. This phenomenon is another matter and the person at the root of it is irrelevant to me; this is where we as a race of beings on the planet fail.


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## xuthal (May 15, 2007)

well put and said


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

*Michael*

I decided to buy the Dangerous DVD the other day, as i have never seen the show he puts on.
Somebody here i think said they seen him live and it was one of there top 5 best shows they ever seen. Lucky you....
I can see why.. Just amazing..i can't even imagine what it would be like being at the front of the stage.

Well i guess you could say very overwhelming, as i lost count of the guys and mostly girls they took away, on a stretcher,,as the passed Out..
Thought i was watching a Beatle concert.

He is no doubt the King of Pop. and i really have to wonder if he lived, if he could have did the performance he did on DVD last night at age 50.

I watched this DVD on my old 19 Samsung, through a non stereo 2 inch speaker.. ( sad isn't it)
But even though i don't have a big screen and 5.1, it still is an awesome concert to see.

Rick


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## jb007 (Dec 6, 2006)

Big_Daddy said:


> TMZ has reported that MJ died of a cardiac arrest this afternoon. Wow.


When did this happen????? OMG!!!!


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

June 25.... you got to be kidding.. u live under a rock..LOL Elvis is dead too ( 1977)


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Rick31797 said:


> .... Elvis is dead too (1977)


Are you sure about that? hwopv


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

Well not 100% sure, it was reported on CNN the other day, that Elvis was seen pushing Buddy Holly in a wheel chair, somewhere on a Island in the middle of the Andaman Sea.
Rick


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

greco said:


> Are you sure about that? hwopv



here is the proof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBiLFEI82Ww


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Rick31797 said:


> Well not 100% sure, it was reported on CNN the other day, that Elvis was seen pushing Buddy Holly in a wheel chair, somewhere on a Island in the middle of the Andaman Sea.
> Rick


I heard that wheel chair was a loner from Jim Morrison


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

*Coroner rules Jackson's death a homicide*

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090824/entertainment/us_michael_jackson_investigation

If anyone is still up on the this slice of drama:__)



> "Forensic tests found the anesthetic propofol combined with at least two sedatives to kill Jackson, according to the official, who spoke Monday on condition of anonymity because the findings have not been publicly released. Based on those tests, the Los Angeles County Coroner has ruled the death a homicide, the official said. "


9kkhhd been a few years, wonder if CNN will do as much coverage as they did of OJ.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

This should be media fodder for a good two years anyway


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Rick31797 said:


> Well not 100% sure, it was reported on CNN the other day, that Elvis was seen pushing Buddy Holly in a wheel chair, somewhere on a Island in the middle of the Andaman Sea.
> Rick


If you've never seen it, you owe it to yourself to see the cult film Bubba Ho-tep.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0281686/

Elvis and JFK, living in a 3rd-tier small-town nursing home in Texas, fighting a soul-sucking mummy from their walkers. Features a terrific soundtrack with a sort of Ventures-meet-Mark-Knopfler-to-jam-in-a-spaghetti-western feel.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

As for the followup on the actual medical facts of Jackson's demise, my guess is it will turn out that the physician in question had insufficient grounding in the pharmacology of what he was administering to Jackson, but was trusted anyway for reasons known only to Jackson, and simply did as was asked by a client he could not refuse. Manslaughter charges will probably be successful, but the 2nd degree murder being discussed now seems unlikely. If it was the case of the physician abusing his authority, that would be one thing, but it's Hollywood, so I get the sense that the abuse of authority will likely run in the other direction, from client to physician. He'll lose his license (and deserves to), but will likely plead down to manslaughter and get a couple of years max.

Bottom line, though: Jackson wasn't "murdered" as the family would like to believe. He was "mis-treated".

So much for the many touted virtues of private medicine.:smilie_flagge17:


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

mhammer said:


> Bottom line, though: Jackson wasn't "murdered" as the family would like to believe. He was "mis-treated".
> 
> So much for the many touted virtues of private medicine.:smilie_flagge17:


Well, when you consider that medical mistreatment (unnecessary surgery, misdiagnoses and prescription drug) deaths are now the third leading cause of death in the US after heart disease and cancer, is any of this surprising?



"This article in the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA) is the best article I have ever seen written in the published literature documenting the tragedy of the traditional medical paradigm.

This information is a followup of the Institute of Medicine report which hit the papers in December of last year, but the data was hard to reference as it was not in peer-reviewed journal. Now it is published in JAMA which is the most widely circulated medical periodical in the world.

The author is Dr. Barbara Starfield of the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health and she desribes how the US health care system may contribute to poor health.

ALL THESE ARE DEATHS PER YEAR:

* 12,000 -- unnecessary surgery
* 7,000 -- medication errors in hospitals
* 20,000 -- other errors in hospitals
* 80,000 -- infections in hospitals
* 106,000 -- non-error, negative effects of drugs 

These total to 225,000 deaths per year from iatrogenic causes!!

What does the word iatrogenic mean? This term is defined as induced in a patient by a physician's activity, manner, or therapy. Used especially of a complication of treatment.

Dr. Starfield offers several warnings in interpreting these numbers:

* First, most of the data are derived from studies in hospitalized patients.
* Second, these estimates are for deaths only and do not include negative effects that are associated with disability or discomfort.
* Third, the estimates of death due to error are lower than those in the IOM report. 

If the higher estimates are used, the deaths due to iatrogenic causes would range from 230,000 to 284,000. In any case, 225,000 deaths per year constitutes the third leading cause of death in the United States, after deaths from heart disease and cancer. Even if these figures are overestimated, there is a wide margin between these numbers of deaths and the next leading cause of death (cerebrovascular disease).

Another analysis concluded that between 4% and 18% of consecutive patients experience negative effects in outpatient settings,with:

* 116 million extra physician visits
* 77 million extra prescriptions
* 17 million emergency department visits
* 8 million hospitalizations
* 3 million long-term admissions
* 199,000 additional deaths
* $77 billion in extra costs 

The high cost of the health care system is considered to be a deficit, but seems to be tolerated under the assumption that better health results from more expensive care.

However, evidence from a few studies indicates that as many as 20% to 30% of patients receive inappropriate care.

An estimated 44,000 to 98,000 among them die each year as a result of medical errors.

This might be tolerated if it resulted in better health, but does it? Of 13 countries in a recent comparison, the United States ranks an average of 12th (second from the bottom) for 16 available health indicators. More specifically, the ranking of the US on several indicators was:

* 13th (last) for low-birth-weight percentages
* 13th for neonatal mortality and infant mortality overall
* 11th for postneonatal mortality
* 13th for years of potential life lost (excluding external causes)
* 11th for life expectancy at 1 year for females, 12th for males
* 10th for life expectancy at 15 years for females, 12th for males
* 10th for life expectancy at 40 years for females, 9th for males
* 7th for life expectancy at 65 years for females, 7th for males
* 3rd for life expectancy at 80 years for females, 3rd for males
* 10th for age-adjusted mortality 

The poor performance of the US was recently confirmed by a World Health Organization study, which used different data and ranked the United States as 15th among 25 industrialized countries.

There is a perception that the American public "behaves badly" by smoking, drinking, and perpetrating violence." However the data does not support this assertion.

* The proportion of females who smoke ranges from 14% in Japan to 41% in Denmark; in the United States, it is 24% (fifth best). For males, the range is from 26% in Sweden to 61% in Japan; it is 28% in the United States (third best).
* The US ranks fifth best for alcoholic beverage consumption.
* The US has relatively low consumption of animal fats (fifth lowest in men aged 55-64 years in 20 industrialized countries) and the third lowest mean cholesterol concentrations among men aged 50 to 70 years among 13 industrialized countries. 

These estimates of death due to error are lower than those in a recent Institutes of Medicine report, and if the higher estimates are used, the deaths due to iatrogenic causes would range from 230,000 to 284,000.

Even at the lower estimate of 225,000 deaths per year, this constitutes the third leading cause of death in the US, following heart disease and cancer.

Lack of technology is certainly not a contributing factor to the US's low ranking.

* Among 29 countries, the United States is second only to Japan in the availability of magnetic resonance imaging units and computed tomography scanners per million population. 17
* Japan, however, ranks highest on health, whereas the US ranks among the lowest.
* It is possible that the high use of technology in Japan is limited to diagnostic technology not matched by high rates of treatment, whereas in the US, high use of diagnostic technology may be linked to more treatment.
* Supporting this possibility are data showing that the number of employees per bed (full-time equivalents) in the United States is highest among the countries ranked, whereas they are very low in Japan, far lower than can be accounted for by the common practice of having family members rather than hospital staff provide the amenities of hospital care. "

Journal American Medical Association July 26, 2000;284(4):483-5


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

While there is much to be said in favour of having medical care from a team of people who are each specialists in their field, one always runs the risk of miscommunication between care-providers, "I thought *you* packed the kids' swimsuits" misunderstandings/assumptions/gaps, conflicts in interpretation, unintended overlaps or conflicts in medications prescribed, and many other ways where a patient can fall through a crack. So, a health-care team is a good thing, but neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for ideal care and management/oversight of a health problem. Just as having one care-provider can mean an integrated co-ordinated approach....if only the care-provider had enough hours in the day and few enough clients to follow your progress closely.

Similarly, it is wonderful that pharmaceutical companies develop new drugs with more targetted effects and fewer individual side-effects. However, as the number of possible medications increases, it becomes that much more difficult to engage in the exhaustive research required to identify ideal conditions for use of all those drugs for all possible users, difficult to know about or foresee all possible interactions with other meds, diet, or pre-existing health problems, and more difficult for patients to successfully manage self-administration in consistent fashion.

So, in many ways, the superficial indications of medical progress - more specialists and specialized knowledge, and more drugs - are not, by themselves any assurance of overall better population health. It all has to be co-ordinated and properly used. In a sense, the contemporary health professional and administrator has to be tuned to what one might call the "ecology of medicine".

What does this have to do with Michael Jackson's death? Well, when one has a multiplicity of care "platforms" - private hospitals, public hospitals, veterans hospitals, walk-in clinics, private doctors, etc. - how does one proide the sort of oversight that assures some basic minimum level of professionalism and adherence to standards? What should those standards be and who should define them? Is someone like Jackson free to request whatever he wants and can afford from a personal physician? Is there a need for the state to poke its head into private care like that once and a while and ask "Is everything up to standards here?", or is post hoc (and post tragedy) litigation the only usable mechanism for the private sector?


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

mhammer said:


> While there is much to be said in favour of having medical care from a team of people who are each specialists in their field, one always runs the risk of miscommunication between care-providers...


My late grandmother and father were part of the generation that either hated or loved medical science. While my grandfather was a hater and waited till it was many years too late to discuss his prostate with a doctor, my grandmother was a lover and frequently had walked into random doctor offices, made appointments, and would come home with a different medical prescription. 

I would say she had an issue, but I know that she was not an isolated case; her own medical merry go round came to light during that time when doctors here in Ontario realised it was happening to a lot of people. I believe there was a high profile death of such a person. Following that pharmacies started to do their health watch tracking and doctors developed some better communications with pharmacies too. 

At the end, my grandmother had 18 different doctors >.< I think there is everything good in having a cluster of professionals, doctors. For myself, I have an audiologist for the deaf ear, a rheumatologist for the arthritis, a dermatologist for the psoriasis. They dont talk to one another as much as I feel they should either :/ I think they need to maintain more open communication with each other, and they need to refer/forward/recordmirror all treatments or prescriptions or whatever through one main care provider my GP. Its that lack of communication and record keeping that I think could lead to issues because each of my doctors relys on ME to tell them what the other doctors have perscribed for me and my memory is the craps >.<


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## xuthal (May 15, 2007)

*Mj alive?*

http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/25/michael-jackson-alive-video/
Probably a hoax but this video surfaced today,apparently it shows michael jackson stepping out of the coroner van he left in.:sport-smiley-002:


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

mhammer said:


> If you've never seen it, you owe it to yourself to see the cult film Bubba Ho-tep.
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0281686/
> 
> Elvis and JFK, living in a 3rd-tier small-town nursing home in Texas, fighting a soul-sucking mummy from their walkers. Features a terrific soundtrack with a sort of Ventures-meet-Mark-Knopfler-to-jam-in-a-spaghetti-western feel.



a really interesting film to be sure. i have always been a fan of "the chin", though. should i mention he is in town this week, doing some kinda thing on fri here in toronto? i read it in the metro yesterday.



xuthal said:


> http://www.tmz.com/2009/08/25/michael-jackson-alive-video/
> Probably a hoax but this video surfaced today,apparently it shows michael jackson stepping out of the coroner van he left in.:sport-smiley-002:



he was on his way to the studio to do some stuff with tupac


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