# Paying for Grocery bags



## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

While reading the "Tipping" thread, I was reminded of my frustration with certain stores starting to charge for bags. I'm not talking about the Superstore where that's always been the case for as long as I can remember. I'm talking about the new trend in BC Lower Mainland by stores like Price Smart (groceries) and Rona (hardware) now charging customers for their flimsy plastic grocery bags. 

I couldn't believe the first time they asked me to pay for my bag at Rona. I gave the cashier a confused look and asked her why they were charging for bags. She gave me the environmental fund spiel - I could tell that she didn't even believe what she was saying. That was the one and only time I paid for a bag. I complained to the manager the next day when I returned some items that I didn't need. I was so worked up over having to pay for the bag that I gave her back one of the bags and asked for my nickel back. The manager apologized for the company policy and admitted that it was simply a cash grab. 

I even asked the manager at Price Smart/Save-on-Foods. I was told that the money went to an environmental fund and that senior management didn't think it was "fair" to add the extra cost to the groceries in general because some people used the canvas bags and didn't destroy the environment with the plastic ones. I told him they should have opted to add it to the groceries in general.

It's not the 5 cents that bothers me. It's the fact that these stores want me to shop there and buy as much of their product as they can sell, then expect me to pay for a plastic bag to carry it! Especially since it's always been a courtesy to supply bags to the customer. I have a bunch of canvas bags that I use when I have them with me or a grocery run is planned, but if I'm on my way home from work and my wife asks me to pick a few things up then I'm hooped. 

I can't get over the number of people that just say "Ok" to this. IMO, it's not cool.

Next thing you know there will be a seating fee at restaurants, coin operated urinals and toilets, and a surcharge of some kind for talking to the staff. 

I'm fighting back the only way I know how - by not shopping there anymore. I've been a strong supporter of Canadian companies, locally owned stores, Canadian franchises and the maple leaf in general. I despise the Wal-Marts of the world and have refused to shop there until now. I live 10 minutes from the US border and had never gone shopping down south to save a few dollars - I supported our local economy instead. 

I now go to Home Depot instead of Rona and Wal-Mart Superstore instead of Price Smart/Save-on-Foods. I'll have to check out Safeway and see if they have taken to charging customers for bags. I've even started crossing the border every week to get gas and some groceries. 

Is the 5 cents plastic bag a national trend now??


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Stratin2traynor said:


> Next thing you know there will be a seating fee at restaurants, coin operated urinals and toilets, and a surcharge of some kind for talking to the staff.


 I've seen coin operated toilets--they sued to be quite common at one time I've been told.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

How did that double post?

I hope I don't have to pay extra for it...


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

in my opinion... its a good thing. there are WAY too many plastics bags floating around.

walking my dog today I saw at least a half dozen tangled up in trees.

id like to see more people using reusable bags, personally. And having to pay for plastic bags will encourage this.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

zontar said:


> I've seen coin operated toilets--they sued to be quite common at one time I've been told.


OOHHHH I remember those. MEMORIES THANKS for them, memories of the days I used to piss on the coin locked doors then leave 

*EDIT: The above statement refers to personal history on the factual side, and sarcasm in the extreme on the whole. I've not pissed on a toilet door in 37 years!! Tree's on the other hand...*

http://ejbags.com/grocery-tshirt-bags-toronto

Lets break it down from a plain jane size/bag:

11X14 1000 1-4/$26.90 5-9/$24.20 10+/$21.80
Ok, big shop, lets go the 10 box price

10 times 21.80 = 210.
10 times 1000 bags = 10,000
$210/10,000bags = 0.021 cents per bag.

5 cents charge on a 2.1 cent bag is better than 100% markup. Face it, as profit margins go, that IS SWEET and the customer is screwed if they opt not for the bag. Tell you though, trying to carry out 10 glass jars of pickles and olives and jams and dumping them on the floor at the till managers work station is worth SO MUCH more than the cost of the jars. Stores learn fast when to just hand you the bag. But like dogs you do have to train them.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

It's hard to tell what Rona's intent is, whether it's truly a cash grab or whether they are redirecting the bag fees to an actual fund of some sort, but I refuse to be defeated by some corporate shinanigans, or uninformed store staff. This is what they say about it, believe what you will:

http://www.rona.ca/content/policy-o...al-reports-other-documents_investor-relations

I carry a shoulder bag much of the time, and always carry cloth bags when shopping. Something as insignificant as a bag charge wouldn't make me change my loyalties or principles which have always been as local and national as possible. The bag fee is simply a step in the direction of removing disposable bags from society, a good thing I believe. Fishing plastic bags out of trees, shrubs, and snowbanks, and from public beaches is at the least an annoyance, plus the things are lethal to wildlife. I rarely if ever accept a store bag. At least a couple of local shops collect and reuse bags from other shops. 

As much as I dislike the ubiquitous plastic shopping bag, the bigger offence in my opinion is the ever expanding use of plastic bubble packaging, and other packaging that can't be refused by the consumer.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

keeperofthegood said:


> OOHHHH I remember those. MEMORIES THANKS for them, memories of the days I used to piss on the coin locked doors then leave


Are you kidding? Do you piss on other things you don't like?

Mooh.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Mooh said:


> Are you kidding? Do you piss on other things you don't like?
> 
> Mooh.


Actually Mooh I was 5 and REALLY had to go. You tell me, your mom's in "appointment don't disturb me" the secretary has horn rimmed glasses and the look of lemons and you have to GO and that means NOW!! That was both mortify AND embarrassing to me at the time and the very last time I ever saw a coin operated washroom. I still have the 'fear' when I walk into some places and smell that old wax and disinfectant smell that I would once again find a coin operated locked door because I did pick up that "description" when I was little.

*Some things in life are better as a courtesy because the discourtesy is far far far worse. Or you can say a little honey gets you farther than vinegar or however that saying goes.**

EDIT: The above statement is directed to businesses and companies and is directed to how it is they treat their customers. It was not directed to any individual here. 
*


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

round here you have to pay for bags...so, we keep a stash of bags behind the seat of the car...bags vary in size between small and ikea bags...it doesn't bother me, i see it as doing a small part for the environment


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Getting back to the plastic bags, we're seeing the same thing in Ottawa. I don't mind it at Loblaws/grocery stores as it does force me to think about bringing my own canvas bags from home - it has now become part of my "mental checklist" before going to get groceries.. But I agree that it gets a bit much now that everyone is getting in on the action.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

keeperofthegood said:


> Actually Mooh I was 5 and REALLY had to go. You tell me, your mom's in "appointment don't disturb me" the secretary has horn rimmed glasses and the look of lemons and you have to GO and that means NOW!! That was both mortify AND embarrassing to me at the time and the very last time I ever saw a coin operated washroom. I still have the 'fear' when I walk into some places and smell that old wax and disinfectant smell that I would once again find a coin operated locked door because I did pick up that "description" when I was little.
> 
> Some things in life are better as a courtesy because the discourtesy is far far far worse. Or you can say a little honey gets you farther than vinegar or however that saying goes.


Sure didn't sound that way with your initial post. Sounded like you were rebelling by defouling the door, and your use of the plural sounded like it was something you did multiple times. Are you changing your story? Are trying to turn this back on me somehow? Or are you mortified and embarrassed now? As for your last statement, my calling you out on this is a response to your statement and is no more discourteous than your statement.

I suggest we take this to PMs if you want to pursue it further, rather than soil the otherwise useful debate.

Peace, Mooh.


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

Stratin2traynor said:


> I even asked the manager at Price Smart/Save-on-Foods. I was told that the money went to an environmental fund and that senior management didn't think it was "fair" to add the extra cost to the groceries in general because some people used the canvas bags and didn't destroy the environment with the plastic ones. I told him they should have opted to add it to the groceries in general.


So you are saying the rest of us should pay for the bags you are using?


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

Why dont they supply paper bags like they used to in the good old days? No problem with those as far as I can see. I always carry our canvas bags in the car at all times as part of my contribution to saving the planet but I agree,charging people for bags is an outrage.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

I do not drive. I walk and bus and at times take a cab (sometimes cheaper to cab than bus).

Paper, on a nice sunny day, is fine. There are environmental impacts in the processing of paper and tree farms do get some up in arms but I think it is a more renewable resource than plastic.

The side that I brought up here before (a year or two ago) was that the canvas/plastic tote bag that is typically sold for .79 to 2.99 is itself not recyclable. None at least here carry the materials content tag or stamp on them. Without that our programs will not actually touch them, they are de-streamed if they do make it into the recycle trucks or are not picked up. In any event they become landfill.

On the other hand, plastic bags are recyclable.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Well, paper bags were destroying trees. Plastic bags don't biodegrade and are a byproduct of the petroleum industry. I invested in reusable shopping bags, there are always some in my car and in the hall closet. I have no problem paying for plastic bags if i forget to bring my own. It's just one small thing, but if every one did it, we'd have less garbage.

AND ever see a bird trying to fly with a damn platic bag hadle looped around it's neck?


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Yes, bags and those plastic six-pack can plastic things. And it is not just birds, all manner of animal. Ive even caught fish with plastics around their heads!!

Thing about plastics is that they can be made to be biodegradable. Have been for 20 some years. I was in 1990 using biodegradable plastic trash bags. Plastics can also be made from hemp with is a far more stable product than either trees or petroleum but then so can 20 or 50 thousand other products. Hemp should be a staple crop across Canada we would do a lot better for its growth and use than the way things are now. The reusable bags get about 10 uses out of them before we throw them out. Seams split, bottoms abraid open, handles fall off or meat bleeds in them.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ezcomes said:


> round here you have to pay for bags...so, we keep a stash of bags behind the seat of the car...bags vary in size between small and ikea bags...it doesn't bother me, i see it as doing a small part for the environment


...same here. and really not much of a sacrifice at all. although at my age, remembering to grab bago or two before i head into the store is always a challenge.

why people make such a big deal out of it amazes me.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Ramblings........

The little 5 cent bags are biodegradeable. Many of the reuseables, which use 100's of times more plastic to make (they are NOT canvas), are not. I use the 5 cent bags several times over - in a million different ways. They are handy as "kitchen catchers" and save me from purchasing purpose-built "kitchen catchers" - at about 12 cents apiece.

The reusable ones are home to more germs than a toilet seat - especially when used for carying meats.

Don't forget that you not only pay the 5 cents ..... they add HST to that too.

Pure and simple it is a way to increase revenue while using a politically correct justification to do so.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

Retailers are free to do whatever they want with the money they collect from selling plastic grocery bags...the money usually remains in a personal bank account collecting interest...not used to save the environment...

read these by-law rules...

http://www.toronto.ca/garbage/packaging_reduction/pdf/faq.pdf

Merchants can keep the money they raise...

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...n-keep-the-5-cent-bag-fee-city-hall-says.aspx


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

allthumbs56 said:


> Ramblings........
> 
> The little 5 cent bags are biodegradeable. Many of the reuseables, which use 100's of times more plastic to make (they are NOT canvas), are not. I use the 5 cent bags several times over - in a million different ways. They are handy as "kitchen catchers" and save me from purchasing purpose-built "kitchen catchers" - at about 12 cents apiece.
> 
> ...


While some plastic bags are biodegradable, the vast majority are not - at least not in the true sense of the word - they may break down into tiny bits, but they never return to being organic material. They are also not _truly_ recyclable in the way that metals and glass are recyclable. "Recyclable" plastics can be reformed once into another single use non-recyclable plastic product.

For groceries, we use the plastic bins which can easily be washed in the event of contamination from meats or other liquid leakage. (Most of our re-useable bags can be easily laundered as well.)

I don't mind paying for bags. As you pointed out, they are cheaper than "kitchen catchers". Also, when our local Zehr's started charging for bags, they actually switched to larger stronger bags, which other chains have not done, so I give them a very tiny amount of credit for that.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

bw66 said:


> ...
> 
> I don't mind paying for bags. As someone else pointed out, they are cheaper than "kitchen catchers". Also, when our local Zehr's started charging for bags, they actually switched to larger stronger bags, which other chains have not done, so I give them a very tiny amount of credit for that.



BINS! I miss them from Knob Hills Farms though I still see them floating about in use. Food Basics here used to also sell bins. They do last a good long time and have a ton of uses from being bins for food to being bins for winter cloths to be stored.

Specifically about bags though, I have seen the same thing here. The 'bigger stronger' change happening. I think that is, as I said, people getting into the "I have one bag to fill and will only shop that much" leading to the bigger part. More than one bag of milk or two bottles of pop is not easy to carry the block or more home, way too heavy so the bigger size is not always a deal for me, but the idea the handles wont separate or the bottom fall out is. I've lost my cans in the middle of intersections too many times from week bags.

Though last night at Value Villages half price sale day (about the only time of the year the kids or I get cloths) I bought an old coffee perk machine. The lady puts it in the bag and the handles both promptly fall apart. She apologizes and says "here I have some of our old bags still, they are bigger and stronger than the new ones"....


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

If you boycott stores that charge for bags, you'll soon run out of places to shop.

I don't like it, but it's becoming more and more common.

Bring your own bags I guess.


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## Jimi D (Oct 27, 2008)

bagpipe said:


> Getting back to the plastic bags, we're seeing the same thing in Ottawa. I don't mind it at Loblaws/grocery stores as it does force me to think about bringing my own canvas bags from home - it has now become part of my "mental checklist" before going to get groceries.. But I agree that it gets a bit much now that everyone is getting in on the action.


The first time they charged me for a bag at L&M I asked why and the clerk told me it was a Provincial Law! I told him he was an idiot and he could keep his bag. 

Ya, it's everywhere... but if it reduces the number of plastic bags needlessly dumped into the environment, I don't mind it... I'm with Mooh tho'; it's the amount of needless packaging we put on consumer goods that really needs to be addressed... Who needs plastic wrapped Cucumbers?!?


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

There's a plastic bag for bread...milk...junk mail flyers...car parts...you name it...we just focus on grocery bags...


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## Guest (May 17, 2011)

Jimi D said:


> The first time they charged me for a bag at L&M I asked why and the clerk told me it was a Provincial Law! I told him he was an idiot and he could keep his bag.


Definitely not a provincial law: http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/ResearchPublications/prb0827-e.htm

But that as article notes: there's not jurisdiction over "the environment" in Canada. In Toronto it's a by-law: http://www.toronto.ca/garbage/packaging_reduction/5centbag_bylaw.htm


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

1) A lot of things that merchants charge for have fees tacked on as a disincentive. That is, the merchant would rather not have to provide that service or item. So, rather than sink money into more staff to have to go and round up the shopping carts, many stores will oblige you to stick a quarter in the cart to be able to use it. Since people aren't glib about quarters the way they are about smaller amounts (and more easy-going than they'd be if the reclaimable fee was a loonie or twonie), the customer does the work of returning the cart to reclaim their quarter. You can see the impact of such things when you shop at two outlets of the same chain, and only one has the cart-rental fee.

2) Unless you operate a daycare (where they routinely wrap each disposable diaper up in a plastic bag), or have a dog-walking business and spend much of your day picking up doo-doo, a lot of folks have no real re-use for plastic bags, so they tend to resent having to pay for them. This is most especially true if the bag is weak and small, versus large and strong. Some chains have terrific bags that will let you carry all your produce in one, without breaking. Others make carrying nothing more than a 2L container of milk a risky venture.

3) Years ago, when we lived in Victoria, Monday magazine had an article on the paper-vs-plastic debate, and came to the surprising conclusion that, when you factored in everything that was involved in producing the paper bag, plastic had less environmental impact...if disposed of properly. In those days, no one talked of "carbon footprint", but was more concerned with industrial effluents that polluted. I don't know if the same smackdown would arrive at the same relative assessment today.

4) It'd be nice if there was somewhere you could bring your bags, and have them all melted down into a usable sheet of plastic. I know that bags can be recycled into commercial plastic building materials that are used for park benches and such.

5) I miss paper bags. In Ottawa we have Green bins for recycling organic waste, but the bins are too large. They sell bags that fit the bins, but these are essentially yard-waste size. One is remiss to spend a buck a bag for something that gets tossed out virtually empty, and one is similarly reluctant to let organic waste accumulate over a couple months just to fill the bag up. Besides, by the time the bag is full enough, the bottom is unlikely to hold.

6) I generally have a bunch of reusable shopping bags in the trunk, though I don't always remember to open the trunk and bring them into the store. And sometimes I "pop in for milk", thinking that I won't need a bag, and leave with more than I intended to buy. One doesn't always carry resuable bags around for those pedestrian purchases either. So, for me, the minimal fee for bags hits the right price-point. High enough that I am reminded to do the right thing, but low enough that when oversight backs me into a corner, the cost is not too high.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

The biggest problem with plastic bags is what people do with them after their use. If you go to India where the plastic bag revolution is in full swing, they are floating around everywhere. Even the cows are chewing on them. Soon that place is going to start looking like Toronto..........
If you shop in Switzerland, there is no packaging. It all sits on the shelf without the crap on it..........


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## bobb (Jan 4, 2007)

For those who insist on use the new so-called enviro bags:

- Wash the damn things once in a while. These bags collect bacteria just like everything else and become a health hazard.

- When shopping at a store where the cashier bags for you, only use the the type of bags designed to properly fit a checkstand bagging rack. If not, *offer* to bag your own groceries. 

Odd sized bags as well as ones that will not stand up on their own are a safety risk to the cashiers. To the customer, this might not seem like a big deal but look at it from the cashier's side. Wrestling with a customers attempt at going green not only slows down the line but adds to the chance of that cashier getting injured. Repetitive stress injuries due to trying to do impossible bagging in the name of customer service are very high these days. When you have to deal with this for 8 hours a day/40 hours a week, problems add up fast, especially in busy stores where the customers are all "in a hurry". Unfortunately, too many customers don't see the problem since they might pack their own groceries once every few weeks. That is not the same as doing it on a full time basis five days a week. What might seem like a small deal such as a tight shoulder or pinched nerve here and there can lead to permanent damage if not taken care of. Ever wonder why your favorite cashier was gone for a few weeks or is now wearing a wrist brace? Now you know.


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

I'm sure people can get themselves some strong bags that are machine washable.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

keeperofthegood said:


> BINS! I miss them from Knob Hills Farms though I still see them floating about in use. Food Basics here used to also sell bins. They do last a good long time and have a ton of uses from being bins for food to being bins for winter cloths to be stored.


My Local IGA still sells them.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Canvas washables!!  Been there, done that. Got two from an enviro shop. The shop went under not too many weeks later (they were on the start of the economic down turn). I thought to myself "lets do this right, and get something solid and sturdy" and so I put down 10 bucks per bag. Canvas and cotton, machine washable etc. Solid and thick rope handles even so they would not cut into my hands!!! I was thinking WOO HOO!! SCORE!! DOING THE RIGHT THING!! The first bag fell apart after the first use, the second lasted three before it too unraveled and fell apart. Yes, I found the shop out of business when I went back to say "HEY 4 USES FOR TWENTY BUCKS??"

Now, I buy new ones for a buck evey other week or so, I toss them out after a few uses (that night if they had blood leakage in them) because they only last a few uses before they are falling apart OR as is more typical I forgot them at home when I left at 8am on my feet and didn't think that when I was shopping at 4pm I would need them. And I don't even bother to waste the money on the laundromat for them they get dirty or damaged out into the regular trash they go.



Starbuck said:


> My Local IGA still sells them.


Thanks  I will have to check them out here see if they do as well.


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## bobb (Jan 4, 2007)

NGroeneveld said:


> I'm sure people can get themselves some strong bags that are machine washable.


All the enviro bags that grocery stores sell are washable. The problem is that people don't wash them. Pack a fresh chicken in it this week, vegetables the following week, maybe a leaky pack of liver after that, I think you can see where this is leading.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

We sometimes bring boxes to the grocery store, and always cloth bags. We also have those old green bins that Zehrs markets used to use, but sadly, we use them for gardening, wood bins, and other things so we don't always have enough for the groceries. My wife is adamant, she won't use plastic.

2 years ago I had canvas book bags made for my music students. Most are still in use though a few have disappeared with departing students or have been lost by careless ones. Overall though, they've worked well to organize their stuff at lesson time and reduce the use of grocery bags that notoriously fail. A local embroidery shop made them and they have held up well. Inside pockets, web handles, embroidered with my business logo. I'm having more made right now, though the fabric won't be quite the same. Sure, they're a business expense, but I'm not sure how one would calculate it, but amount/years of use versus cost/environmental impact must come into play at some point in the equation. Waste sucks, organization doesn't. Good strong cloth bags are way more functional than cheap plastic ones.

Peace, Mooh.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

jimihendrix said:


> Retailers are free to do whatever they want with the money they collect from selling plastic grocery bags...the money usually remains in a personal bank account collecting interest...not used to save the environment...
> 
> read these by-law rules...
> 
> ...


And you can safely bet that they are keeping every penny


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

bobb said:


> All the enviro bags that grocery stores sell are washable. The problem is that people don't wash them. Pack a fresh chicken in it this week, vegetables the following week, maybe a leaky pack of liver after that, I think you can see where this is leading.


No I actually don't see where it's leading because i give people a bit more credit than that. It ain't rocket science here. Why all the barriers to just showing up at the store with your own bags?


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

Wow. I'm surprised at all the people willing to pay the 5 cents + for a bag and just accept all of the "environmental justifications" offered by the stores. It's simply a cash grab. If there was truly an environmental concern, they would stop offering bags altogether. Oh wait a minute, then people might not buy as much stuff. In my opinion, the stores have identified a situation they can take advantage of and have found a way to justify it. Sing the environmentally sensitive song and the busy people will eat it all up and sing along.

I also have a number of canvas bags that we keep in our family van. I use them as much as possible. I was in no way suggesting that plastic bags were awesome or necessary. Just that the 5 cent per bag surcharge was a ridiculously transparent money grab.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

Forgot to mention....I couldn't agree more with whoever said that a bigger environmental issue is the stupid packaging that we have to endure in North America. I end up slicing my hands up at Christmas and on birthdays when gifts come packaged in that rigid plastic shell. Let's not forget the styrofoam and bubble wrap as well.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

To be fair, the depth of dirt and bacterial debris inside of the reusable bags has been on both local and national news a few times the last year or three here in Ontario. It's become more or less a fill in sound bite to remind people to clean them etc.

One of the huge impacts on plastics was by 20/20 when they surveyed US kids water bottles. They found urine and fecal mater in grade school childrens water bottles. The cause was the reuse of them. Following that broadcast there has been a huge increase in people using metal water bottles instead and is big enough now to be pretty much a self sustaining attitude. Unlike plastics that are very porous and retain bacteria and "urine and fecal matter" even after washing the metal ones wash out clean and are easy to sterilize.



Stratin2traynor said:


> Forgot to mention....I couldn't agree more with whoever said that a bigger environmental issue is the stupid packaging that we have to endure in North America. I end up slicing my hands up at Christmas and on birthdays when gifts come packaged in that rigid plastic shell. Let's not forget the styrofoam and bubble wrap as well.


This I have to 100% agree with. One of my many medications comes in a factory sealed jar. The container is 2 inches tall and an inch and a half in diameter. The pills inside fill a tablespoon. I could easily fit in this one container 1000 or more pills, certainly far and above the 30 that come in it. Another one that makes me shake my head; coconuts in plastic wrap and not all the way around, just a middle band of it.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Stratin2traynor said:


> Forgot to mention....I couldn't agree more with whoever said that a bigger environmental issue is the stupid packaging that we have to endure in North America. I end up slicing my hands up at Christmas and on birthdays when gifts come packaged in that rigid plastic shell. Let's not forget the styrofoam and bubble wrap as well.


Plastic bags bad. Nature good. One problem at a time but that rigid plastic packaging is definetly on the endangered plastic species list. Styrofoam and bubble wrap however are reusable so it may take a little longer.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Stratin2traynor said:


> Wow. I'm surprised at all the people willing to pay the 5 cents + for a bag and just accept all of the "environmental justifications" offered by the stores. It's simply a cash grab. If there was truly an environmental concern, they would stop offering bags altogether. Oh wait a minute, then people might not buy as much stuff. In my opinion, the stores have identified a situation they can take advantage of and have found a way to justify it. Sing the environmentally sensitive song and the busy people will eat it all up and sing along.
> 
> I also have a number of canvas bags that we keep in our family van. I use them as much as possible. I was in no way suggesting that plastic bags were awesome or necessary. Just that the 5 cent per bag surcharge was a ridiculously transparent money grab.


This is crystal clear in my mind


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

keeperofthegood said:


> To be fair, the depth of dirt and bacterial debris inside of the reusable bags has been on both local and national news a few times the last year or three here in Ontario. It's become more or less a fill in sound bite to remind people to clean them etc.
> 
> One of the huge impacts on plastics was by 20/20 when they surveyed US kids water bottles. They found urine and fecal mater in grade school childrens water bottles. The cause was the reuse of them. Following that broadcast there has been a huge increase in people using metal water bottles instead and is big enough now to be pretty much a self sustaining attitude. Unlike plastics that are very porous and retain bacteria and "urine and fecal matter" even after washing the metal ones wash out clean and are easy to sterilize.
> 
> .


Well maybe others should do as I do - don't let your kids piss on the bags! But seriously, there's been lots of stomach flu go around this winter that hasn't touched us. Maybe we've got some kind of built up resistance?


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## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

I guess I just might be a little more laid back than some of you guys...as this whole paying for bags isnt going to get me upset.

Compared to what I pay for a years worth of groceries (about $200 to $250), on average I might go to the grocery store 2X a week, an get maybe 3 or 4 bags. So, thats $0.30 to $0.40/ week. So, at best $20 a year onto my families $10,000 to $13,000 or so yearly grocery bill. Whatever... I use the bags for trash, etc so I figure its less money than buying a box of kitchen catchers.

I dont bitch about the price of gas, and I dont bitch about paying for a few grocery bags... I have far more important things in life to bitch about! 

I do carry some clath bags, but I actually like the plastic ones so I get them more often. They have always been perfect for the smaller garbage cans around the house.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

ajcoholic said:


> I guess I just might be a little more laid back than some of you guys...as this whole paying for bags isnt going to get me upset.
> 
> Compared to what I pay for a years worth of groceries (about $200 to $250), on average I might go to the grocery store 2X a week, an get maybe 3 or 4 bags. So, thats $0.30 to $0.40/ week. So, at best $20 a year onto my families $10,000 to $13,000 or so yearly grocery bill. Whatever... I use the bags for trash, etc so I figure its less money than buying a box of kitchen catchers.
> 
> ...


For me, its not a matter of bitching. Its just knowing the facts that 99% of merchants that are charging are doing so purely to increase the bottom line. They can lean on the green bandwagon all they want, I dont buy it. I also have never carried a bag "into" a store in my life. I pay the bag fee.


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## scotcdnlass (Apr 4, 2011)

*Paying for Plastic*

As a cashier in a store that charges for bags, I am sick and tired of customers taking out their frustration on me. I'm not the one that uses plastic bags, I'm not the one that changed the policy for payment and if you don't want to pay for a bag, DON'T BUY ONE!!!!!!!!!

Charging customers for bags keeps plastic out of landfill, the store I work for donates proceeds from the bags to Women's Cancers (after government taxes of course) and the days of throw away everything is coming to an end. This is not 1970; gas is not 35 cents, styrofoam is not used for food containers and environmental issues are no longer suppressed. In many cities, a new bylaw for plastic bags is in place and the stores MUST charge for the bags regardless of the items, i.e. Toronto. 

So if the five cents is too much for you to pay for your lazy convenience, purchase a reuseable bag and carry it with you (LIKE I DO) where ever you go. 

If you want to complain; phone the head office of the retail chain, stop bitching at the cashier or clerk, it isn't their fault they are only following policy and what you are doing is a form of harassment. 

BE GREEN AND BUY REUSEABLE BAGS!!!!!


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## the-patient (May 19, 2009)

I agree with scotcdnlass. 

Regardless of what is happening with the money at the end of the line with the 5 cents per bag, a goal is still being accomplished - keeping those bags out of landfills. My family ran a landfill in Northern Ontario, and I can tell you from experience, that no matter how you fence them in, those bags fly, and are a nightmare for the environment. A radius of about 6km of forest around the landfill is littered with them, stuck in trees from top to bottom. If stopping that by paying 5 cents is too inconvenient for you, I believe you need to reevaluate your ideals somewhat.

Also, I find you guys have a lot of gall to make assumptions about what these large corporations are doing with the money. The balance statements and income reports of companies this large can be enormous - where do you get off 'knowing' how the money is spent. Find the income statements of one of these stores if they're publicly traded, and find the "Plastic Bag Fee Revenue" row, since it would have to be reported. Even if it is there, and isn't matched with a donation, I hardly imagine it to be some astronomical value. I'd be shocked to see it at more than 2% of the bottom line. A local store manager has no idea what is a "cash grab" and what isn't, and will likely not have any control of where it would go.

Making up random statistics like 

"the facts that 99% of merchants that are charging are doing so purely to increase the bottom line." 

is simply sensationalizing, and I for one would like to know where you got that 'fact,' and how many merchants were surveyed. 

This is such a polarized debate, but no one seems to have any concrete facts either way, and we're ignoring the real positive about this - reducing our waste. We're going to be in a sorry state in another 40 years if (generously) 0.2% of your grocery bill is spent on reducing the use of one of our surface landfill's hardest wastes to effectively contain is too much.


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## the-patient (May 19, 2009)

Okay, so here's a quick bit of math.

So, Keeperofthegood found a source saying that plastic bags cost approximately 2.1 cents, leaving a profit of 2.9 cents for the company.

Now, Rona according to their 2008 policy page delivered 30 million bags for free, and hope that they can reduce that number by 70% by the end of this year.

Let's be conservative and say they reduced the use by 50% over 2010, and so sold 15 million bags at 5 cents a piece. 

At 2.9 cents per bag, that means they earned a whopping *$435 000* on the bags, not including the costs of stocking them in their stores, putting them on the racks, and the indirect wages of handing them to the customers. Plus disposing of the waste they invariably come with.

That may seem like a lot of money from our perspectives, but, in that same year according to the financial information found over at google finance, Rona had a revenue of almost
*4.8 BILLION CANADIAN DOLLARS*, 
bags accounted for 0.000091% of that number. * Not even one ten thousandth of a percent of revenue.*

Their net income though, was only about 140 million. If (and that's a big if) the bags were a cash grab, it earned them less than 0.30% of their final income, and probably less than that considering indirect costs. Less than 1%. 

In ONE DAY rona raised more money for a charity than they earned on selling those bags. Passing it off as a cash grab is just silly considering the scale of these stores.

Rona Plastic Bag Policy and Goals.

Goggle Finance - Rona Inc

Rona Charity


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I still think there are far worse uses of throw-away plastics out there........ bottled water probably being the worst, then there's product packaging (ever buy an Ikea bookcase?), disposable diapers. How about garbage bags? Does anybody put their trash directly into a can anymore?

Popular thought or not, I think the store-supplied plastic bag is an easy case for both business and politicians to bandwagon over.


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## the-patient (May 19, 2009)

Fine but it's a step in the right direction.

Sorry if it's the wrong step in the right direction, and that we have to make a small payment for it. 

Also, the university I'm in is making huge strides in eliminating plastic bottles and other types of waste. 

This is also a bandwagon for cheap people to jump on. The 5 cent cost seems to be used as an excuse to hate on a reasonably successful policy. If they eliminated 70% of the plastic bag waste in only 3 years i think it's a resounding success.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

the-patient said:


> Okay, so here's a quick bit of math.
> 
> So, Keeperofthegood found a source saying that plastic bags cost approximately 2.1 cents, leaving a profit of 2.9 cents for the company.
> 
> ...


Good on ya, bro, for doing the math! I'm impressed.
There are a lot of things that can initially strike people as a "cash grab" that have completely different motives and implications. And as you so eloquently illustrate, when you take a step back and look at the bigger picture, you realize that something you don't feel like paying for is NOT really anything that anyone would construe as a revenue stream.

Case in point. I regularly hear complaining about the insistence by some companies that you use THEIR AC adaptor with their pedals and ONLY their AC adaptor. Some pass it off as a cash grab for that company's wallwarts. The reality is that they don't make enough on those to justify their production. The underlying rationale is that there is such negligible standardization of adaptors out there that the pedal manufacturer would be saddled with teaching consumers what to look for in a third-party adaptor so that the pedal it was used with didn't end up returned for repairs, or receive a hasty reputation on-line as a "piece of crap" because the consumer didn't understand enough about the adaptor. It is simply easier for them to say "Here, use this.", and be done with it.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

the thing is, if you go to the toronto solid waste authority website, you'll see that the bag fee is a law. the merchant has to charge you, like it or not. then read the law. they are prohibited from offering you a biodegradable alternative such as paper, or the bags we use in the states that are made from a polymer chain that breaks down over time and actually disintegrates in a few months. the monies collected are not sent to the government, nor are they earmarked by law to any conservation fund. even more fun is paying hst on the bag fee. crap like this is why america revolted from england in the first place.
regardless of what the store does with the monies, regardless of what fraction of a % that money is to the bottom line, collectively speaking, it's a hell of alot more than anyone on this forum is worth. in my book, that makes it alot of money.
no matter how small, it's still a cost increase that was forced upon you, and it's ill-concieved. how the hell did they manage to avoid that being an election issue? if you ever needed evidence that john Q Public is fast asleep, look no further than this.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

the-patient said:


> Okay, so here's a quick bit of math.
> 
> Now, Rona according to their 2008 policy page delivered 30 million bags for free,
> 
> ...


One flaw in the argument. Rona never "gave the bags away for _free_." The cost of those bags was included in the retail price of the products we buy; IOW, the consumer, (not Rona) was already paying for the bag. Funny that all the prices didn't go down 5 cents after the bag policy went into effect . . .

While it may "only" be $435,000, it is $435,000 _every_ year. Suddenly, that is a lot of $ in 10 years.

My beef with the bag charging is this. My grocery store wants 5 cents a bag. Fine. But why did the two heads of broccoli I bought yesterday come wrapped in plastic, sitting on a Styrofoam base? This isn't a hypothetical situation, this happened yesterday. I'm all for reducing bag usage but the program is classic green washing since many stores have actually done nothing to reduce waste but wrap themselves in a green flag. When it cuts into their profits, how many stores are leading the way (without simply raising prices)?


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

The other interesting thing lost in this entire discussion . . . 

Who here now buys garbage bags instead of using old grocery bags in their household garbage cans? How many fewer bags actually end up going to landfill if everybody still uses some form of plastic bag for garbage disposal?


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Remember when the internet was free? TV was free? Museums were free? Just wait until they start charging for parking at the grocery store............


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

traynor_garnet said:


> One flaw in the argument. Rona never "gave the bags away for _free_." The cost of those bags was included in the retail price of the products we buy; IOW, the consumer, (not Rona) was already paying for the bag. Funny that all the prices didn't go down 5 cents after the bag policy went into effect . . .
> 
> While it may "only" be $435,000, it is $435,000 _every_ year. Suddenly, that is a lot of $ in 10 years.
> 
> My beef with the bag charging is this. My grocery store wants 5 cents a bag. Fine. But why did the two heads of broccoli I bought yesterday come wrapped in plastic, sitting on a Styrofoam base? This isn't a hypothetical situation, this happened yesterday. I'm all for reducing bag usage but the program is classic green washing since many stores have actually done nothing to reduce waste but wrap themselves in a green flag. When it cuts into their profits, how many stores are leading the way (without simply raising prices)?


This is very obvious to those that can see past the green flag


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

traynor_garnet said:


> The other interesting thing lost in this entire discussion . . .
> 
> Who here now buys garbage bags instead of using old grocery bags in their household garbage cans? How many fewer bags actually end up going to landfill if everybody still uses some form of plastic bag for garbage disposal?


We're only allowed to use clear plastic bags, as far as I'm aware.

For what it's worth, we only put our garbage out for pickup when we have a couple of large full bags, so that the truck doesn't stop and idle any more often. We compost everything that will rot, recycle everything that the system will accept, refuse packaging whever possible, try not to drive unnecessarily, keep the heat down, use as little AC and ac as possible, take our yard waste for municipal recycling if it doesn't fit in any or our 3 composters, blah blah blah...and still it's not enough. It's not easy being green...but we try.

Peace, Mooh.


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## the-patient (May 19, 2009)

The reduction in plastic bag usage is a significant one, regardless of what is happening with the rest of the food. They can't simply eliminate all plastic without finding some alternative.

The argument about the trash bags at home is moot, since Stores report up to a 70% reduction in plastic bags delivered. That is a factual reduction in waste.

Even in ten years it is still only one ten thousandth of a percentage of their revenue, if everything remains similar. I supplied one charity article about Rona, showing they've donated more than that figure in a single charity event.

Traynor_Garnet, at least for me, there are far fewer bags going in the dump. It's easy to have 10 plastic bags if you're doing a grocery, and you then put them in the garbage can, since the old bags were often too weak. The bags in the garbage can existed before this debate.

I don't really care about the PR angle with the companies, the fact is, that if it's a cash grab, it's completely insignificant, and far less than most billion dollar + revenue corporations charitable donations. The other fact is, that within one company being used as an example, plastic bag usage was reduced by about 20 million bags a year, and so does make a difference on my environmental impact.

If you're that concerned about waste, head to the farmer's market. 

Regardless of the ethical and moral goals of these campaigns, if companies see public success with them, other companies have to follow suit and try to innovate. That competition will lead to a great reduction in wastes. It has to start somewhere.

I know I sound very pro corporate, but lobbying isn't as powerful up here as it is in the states, and our corporate culture is much more considerate to the general populace.

I'm not some suit lobbying for your support for these companies, but I think regardless of why, or how it's done, the money taken is insignificant in scope, and it is a step in the right direction.

@Mooh, I try my best as well - it's really difficult to try and reduce the waste, but running and organizing a dump first hand really opened my eyes to the damage small things like plastic bags do. They're one of the most disgusting pollutants around, visually at least. They spread like a plague, even with 15 foot fences.



traynor_garnet said:


> One flaw in the argument. Rona never "gave the bags away for _free_." The cost of those bags was included in the retail price of the products we buy; IOW, the consumer, (not Rona) was already paying for the bag. Funny that all the prices didn't go down 5 cents after the bag policy went into effect . . .
> 
> While it may "only" be $435,000, it is $435,000 _every_ year. Suddenly, that is a lot of $ in 10 years.
> 
> My beef with the bag charging is this. My grocery store wants 5 cents a bag. Fine. But why did the two heads of broccoli I bought yesterday come wrapped in plastic, sitting on a Styrofoam base? This isn't a hypothetical situation, this happened yesterday. I'm all for reducing bag usage but the program is classic green washing since many stores have actually done nothing to reduce waste but wrap themselves in a green flag. When it cuts into their profits, how many stores are leading the way (without simply raising prices)?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The problem with plastic shopping bags is the same problem with virtually every other policy or law you want to point to: they are frequently developed in complete isolation of other laws and/or policies. So, laws about shopping bags are not developed in consideration of all potential needless sources of plastic waste in the supermarket. Small surprise, then, that people can point to any number of ways such laws don't make sense. T'was ever thus. If you're expecting a retail chain to have a constellation of "green" policies and practices that weave together flawlessly with the right degree of emphasis on all the right things, you better pack a lunch and a change of clothing.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I believe that the whole free grocery bag thing is primarily an American and Canadian thing. You bring your own bags in Europe and most other parts of the world. Correct me if I'm wrong here.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

i live beside a grocery store-
used to be you could buy a bag, or else use a box. all the used boxes that the stuff the store sold came in was piled up just past the registers.
someone else runs the place now, and the boxes are gone because it didnt look professional.
i usually dont buy enough that i cant carry it in my hands or pockets.
but if i buy a bag i put my other plastic garbage in it and throw it in the plastic recycling bin.
then i just sit around thinking about boobs.
big ones mostly.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

the-patient said:


> @Mooh, I try my best as well - it's really difficult to try and reduce the waste, but running and organizing a dump first hand really opened my eyes to the damage small things like plastic bags do. They're one of the most disgusting pollutants around, visually at least. They spread like a plague, even with 15 foot fences.


It's really disheartening to find bags drifting in the lake, birds tangled in them, bags tangled in trees (we had a few this spring again), bags blowing like tumbleweeds across the countryside...

Peace, Mooh.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

Mooh, while I agree with what you posted, I don't see how charging me 5 cents for a bag will change that. The people that let their bags float away will still do it. I'm just down a nickel per bag. If there is such a concern for the environment, I say don't have any bags at all.



Mooh said:


> It's really disheartening to find bags drifting in the lake, birds tangled in them, bags tangled in trees (we had a few this spring again), bags blowing like tumbleweeds across the countryside...
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

Time for a nostalgia break...

[video=youtube;DH0U2AsyoWU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DH0U2AsyoWU&feature=related[/video]


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Stratin2traynor said:


> Mooh, while I agree with what you posted, I don't see how charging me 5 cents for a bag will change that. The people that let their bags float away will still do it. I'm just down a nickel per bag. If there is such a concern for the environment, I say don't have any bags at all.


Charging a fee for bags will change availability and volume. That reduction will be reflected in the numbers let loose. Hopefully it will also change public habits, but I don't hold any hope for the asswipes who litter. In fact, I believe they (the bags and the asswipes) should be banned altogether, even then it will be years before they eventually disappear from memory, never mind experience. The fee is simply a step in that direction because industry and society generally doesn't like abrupt change.

Peace, Mooh.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Seems to be a fairly polarizing issue.

Tell you what I dislike about it most: I dislike how both government and business alike are trying to mask increases by itemizing "add-ons". My Enbridge bill has separate charges for "Delivery to Enbridge", "Delivery to Home", and "Supply Cost". Horizon is famous for it's Debt Retirement charge. My Vet itemized fixing my pup down to optional charges for post-operation pain medication and IV "in case these's a problem during surgery" (when I just asked them to do the job right they told me it was my responsibility to select these things). The Ontario government has put a freeze on public service wages but the OPP get 14% somehow, eHealth gets performance bonuses ........ and of course no new taxes - just fees and HST up the wazoo. Buy a can of paint: the contents have fallen from 4.54 litres to 4 to 3.78 to 3.6. "Great news! We're reducing our services and need to charge you more for the improvement (Cogeco). Gas goes up a dime because a cow farts somewhere.........., on and on and on .....

Listen, I understand that costs go up. I also understand government and business need/want to increase revenue. Go ahead and do so ....... just dont treat me like an idiot by calling it something else, blaming it on something else or telling me it's all for the latest greatest cause and calling me out because I haven't drunk the koolaid.


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

Why am I seeing product and services ads in some peoples posts? I'm not on this forum to get more junk mail ad spam. Is this some kind of cheap money grab by GC administrators? 

(Please note - tongue is firmly planted in cheek on this one - lol


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Well, as I say: I buy ten items that need ten bags it's either the thin recyclable ones at a nickle or the heavy non recyclable ones at a buck in either case it is still ten bags and nothing has changed.


> Now, Rona according to their 2008 policy page delivered 30 million bags for free,
> 
> Let's be conservative and say they reduced the use by 50% over 2010, and so sold 15 million bags at 5 cents a piece.


The other side of this is, 15,000,000 bags instead of being 5 cent bags became 1 dollar re-use bags. That puts up the half million profit line on plastic bags a fair and tidy amount. Being fair, it seems the divide is 50/50 here for those that remember and those that forget their bags, so, that leaves 7,000,000 in re-purchased re-use bags again at a dollar each...


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

keeperofthegood said:


> The other side of this is, 15,000,000 bags instead of being 5 cent bags became 1 dollar re-use bags. That puts up the half million profit line on plastic bags a fair and tidy amount. Being fair, it seems the divide is 50/50 here for those that remember and those that forget their bags, so, that leaves 7,000,000 in re-purchased re-use bags again at a dollar each...


It seems that you're assuming that the re-useable bags only get used once. Once you've used a cloth bag 20 times, you're ahead of the game, and these days it seems that everybody and their brother is giving away good quality cloth bags with their logo on them so you don't even have to buy them anymore.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

bw66 said:


> It seems that you're assuming that the re-useable bags only get used once. Once you've used a cloth bag 20 times, you're ahead of the game, and these days it seems that everybody and their brother is giving away good quality cloth bags with their logo on them so you don't even have to buy them anymore.



Yes, half way. I am making the assumption that others are like me and at least half the time out shopping forget or are unable to bring reusable bags. That leaves either bag purchase or repurchase of the reuse bags. In the comments here in this thread it is not an uncommon thing to wind up repurchasing reusable bags so I don't think I am 'too' far out of line.

What IS needed though is a good and accurate assessment on the repurchase rate of reuse bags, as well as the profit margin on those bags. Also an accurate count on times reused for those bags. I rarely have mine last 20 uses, only the strangest oddball bags will like the ones from LCBO for intance. But those I think I paid 5 dollars for too. I have gone to a fair number of bag manufacturer pages and they are ALL "minimum orders 200 to 250 bags" and they are all "Please call for a price quote".


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

the-patient said:


> The reduction in plastic bag usage is a significant one, regardless of what is happening with the rest of the food. They can't simply eliminate all plastic without finding some alternative
> The argument about the trash bags at home is moot, since Stores report up to a 70% reduction in plastic bags delivered. That is a factual reduction in waste.


.

I'm not against reducing plastic bag usage and we use reusable bags all the time. What I _do_ find problematic is seeing stores wrap themselves in the "green flag" when it is convenient, doesn't cost them anything, or even requires them to do something. If you are truly committed to the green movement, you are willing to make some sort of sacrifice (commitment entails sacrifice) rather than seeking praise for adding a new (albeit small) revenue stream. No, stores cannot entirely get rid of plastic in the entire store, but there is absolutely no reason to have fresh broccoli heads wrapped in plastic and Styrofoam. You cannot have these types of practices while flying the green flag.

The argument against trash bags at home is NOT moot. If you have to go buy boxes of "Glad bags" for your kitchen garbage, instead of using plastic grocery bags, you are still throwing out plastic bags into landfill. Stores may be reducing the number of bags they give out/sell to customers, but people still need to put their garbage in something at home.



> Even in ten years it is still only one ten thousandth of a percentage of their revenue, if everything remains similar. I supplied one charity article about Rona, showing they've donated more than that figure in a single charity event


.

The stuff about charities is moot (and tax deductable) and the percent of revenue still doesn't matter if it generates nearly half a million a year. That is still a lot of money, regardless of its percentage, although obviously stores are not betting the farm on this new revenue stream. 



> Traynor_Garnet, at least for me, there are far fewer bags going in the dump. It's easy to have 10 plastic bags if you're doing a grocery, and you then put them in the garbage can, since the old bags were often too weak. The bags in the garbage can existed before this debate.


????




> I don't really care about the PR angle with the companies, the fact is, that if it's a cash grab, it's completely insignificant, and far less than most billion dollar + revenue corporations charitable donations. The other fact is, that within one company being used as an example, plastic bag usage was reduced by about 20 million bags a year, and so does make a difference on my environmental impact.
> 
> Regardless of the ethical and moral goals of these campaigns, if companies see public success with them, other companies have to follow suit and try to innovate. That competition will lead to a great reduction in wastes. It has to start somewhere.


The problem with these programs is that they don't really address the greatest sources of pollution and environmental destruction. They continue to posit 'the market' as the grand solution to our social problems but have actually asked nothing of business accept to make a bit more money. While it is great to see fewer shopping bags being used (but perhaps not less ending up in landfill), changing your shopping bag really doesn't rethink the role of consumerism and “economic growth” in environmental problems.



> If you're that concerned about waste, head to the farmer's market.


We do that every week. Good local food at WAY lower prices. 


Anyway, this thread is about to spin out of control so I will probably just bow out now.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Small surprise, then, that people can point to any number of ways such laws don't make sense. T'was ever thus. If you're expecting a retail chain to have a constellation of "green" policies and practices that weave together flawlessly with the right degree of emphasis on all the right things, you better pack a lunch and a change of clothing.


Why not? If you are going to post "green" posters and preach about green corporate responsibility, why shouldn't I take a look at your entire business and daily practices?


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Robert1950 said:


> I believe that the whole free grocery bag thing is primarily an American and Canadian thing. You bring your own bags in Europe and most other parts of the world. Correct me if I'm wrong here.


Let's remember that nothing is free. It was calculated in the cost of the items sold. Only difference now is you are paying for it twice. Those that bring their own bags are just paying for it once and receiving nothing in return.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

I refuse to buy bags when asked...I tell the cashier I've learned how to juggle my items instead of carrying them in a bag...


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

aside from what was mentioned in previous posts, another thing that makes the bag fee ridiculous is all the packaging on other items. milk comes in a bag here. stupidest idea i've ever seen, in my entire life. i guarantee there are alot more milk bags in the landfill than grocery bags, when you consider that every time you buy a 3 litre of milk you get 4 heavy plastic bags. how about the mountains of diapers? blister packs that you're not even supposed to put in the blue bin? the bag fee is a good example of how industry can use political action committees against the consumer.


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