# Do you need big $ to sound good?



## GUInessTARS (Dec 28, 2007)

I am old. This gives me the ear to compare new and old. I wouldn't , for example, pay $400,000 for a '59 Les Paul. But I also don't want to pay $400 for a digital amp that simulates good tone. I think good tone can be achieved with a modest budget. I have an american tele and a boogie f-50 that can do anything. what do you have and what do you want?


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## Samsquantch (Mar 5, 2009)

I don't think you need big $ to sound good necessarily, but I think spending a little extra can go a long ways towards sounding much better than 'good'. I just bought a Suhr S3 for $3000, but it's a far better instrument than any guitar I've ever played, including all the high end Strats, Teles, Les Pauls, SG's, Ibanez etc etc...It actually inspires my creativity much more than any other guitar.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

It depends what you call "good" tone. Some people like cheap tone (punk rock or gritty blues for example), others like tone that can pretty much only be achieved with a lot of expensive high tech equipment.
its like whats a "good" car? Some would say something reliable like a Toyota camry...Other would say a performer like a $1M. Bugatti.

FWIW, although I like Teles and F-50's I wouldnt say that and only that can do "anything"...at least for my tastes. Not realistic, IMO. But if it does 80% of what you want it to do, then you're probably in a pretty good place musically.


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## snacker (Jun 26, 2008)

sometimes you can hit on something that's inexpensive and suits what you do perfectly. In my quest for the perfect amp, i found an old traynor guitarmate that i had restored and upgraded and it's great for what i do (and better than a number of expensive amps that i went through trying to find "the sound")

guitar-wise, my #1 is a custom shop heritage H576 that cost me a bundle, #2 an old furlanetto that is worth a fair bit too - my #3 is a classic vibe tele that was $300 new - #4 through whatever are great guitars, but don't do it for me the same way

i figure if the gear works for you, it doesn't matter how boutiquey it is


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## droptop88 (Aug 25, 2006)

Absolutely not. I've seen guys come to a jam and play a Series A Strat through a solid state Peavey Bandit and sound great. I've also seen guys pick up a 335, plug it into a nice Marhall 30 watt combo and sound crappy. I find my sound improves the most when I stay out of the emporiums and play the guitar! Who knew?:smile:

"Good" tone is obviously subjective. It sure is fun to try new stuff though, and I've learned a lot about sounds and how things work together to produce my idea of "good" tone by buying, selling and trading gear - some expensive and some not so expensive. For some reason, I always find that I gravitate toward higher dollar amps, and lower dollar guitars, if that makes any sense. I think one of the only brand new guitars I've ever purchased was ... yes, an American Standard tele! Don't have it anymore.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Diablo said:


> Some people like cheap tone (punk rock or gritty blues for example)


Them's fightin' words!:sport-smiley-002:

Finding a great, and unique, blues lead tone is like the search for the holy grail - impossible and never ending! I've spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours on the "tone" quest. Then I came to the conclusion that good enough is enough. After that I could actually play my guitar rather than fiddle with knobs, eq, pedals and amps all day.

So ultimately I think that good tone, sometimes bordering on great, can be achieved on a budget. for example, I'm running a Blackheart 5 watt head into a 2x8" cab with alnicos at the same time as my Peavey Windor studio. All told those 2 amps and the cab came in under 800 bucks. It plays at a reasonable volume and it sounds phenomenal!

That being said, if I could have all my money back I'm sure I would buy a Peters amp - or something else with channel switching and great tone in all settings. $ can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you _great _tone.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

GUInessTARS said:


> I am old. This gives me the ear to compare new and old. I wouldn't , for example, pay $400,000 for a '59 Les Paul. But I also don't want to pay $400 for a digital amp that simulates good tone. I think good tone can be achieved with a modest budget. I have an american tele and a boogie f-50 that can do anything. what do you have and what do you want?


I really dont think you need to spend a lot of money to sound good. I th ink higher end gear is made better, usually looks better and is more durable but I know lots of guys that dont have expensive gear and sound so good its sick.

Your American Tele and Mesa amp are damn nice pieces of gear. Nobody with half a brain would EVER consider your equipment to be second rate. I have lots of nice gear but toiled on cheap stuff for years...now that I have a good income I am treating myself. I have some expensive gear (though I am opportunistic and nearly always buy used) and am much happier with my stuff than I was back when I was young. If I had to go back to my old 70's Marshall Mark II half stack (desirable now I guess....in the late 80's it was cheap cheap cheap) and Kramer parts guitar I could do so and do just fine...but I dont want to.

Also. I am in a country band and a heavy rock band....I need 2 very different sets of gear to pull those 2 gigs off.

As for modeling stuff....I dont mind it at all. I prefer the sound and feel of tubes but Modeling stuff has come a long way since Line 6's early days.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

1) $ can = *more* quality, but doesn't necessarily. Generally, once you start spending over $1k for a guitar, what you're getting is the *assurance* of quality. That is, a $159.95 mail-order/pawn-shop/Craigslist special *might* be decent...or it might not. The difference in price is often a function of the attention to quality control and finishing touches. So, *maybe* the frets are nicely polished...but maybe not. *Maybe* it's a decent piece of wood properly dried out...but maybe not. *Maybe* the finish isn't too thick to affect resonance...but maybe not.

2) Personally, I just want something that plays more predictably than what I have. Other than an old Kalamazoo archtop, nothing of mine on the electric side really provides good intonation all the way up, proper string spacing, and a wide enough neck for my tastes. Once a major expense is out of the way this fall, I'm looking to finally buy something that has those qualities. Happily, the electronics are something I can easily attend to myself. The wood construction, neck joint, etc., is another thing.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

The guitar companies want you to buy the cheaper stuff, as they make way more profit when you do just that. Why do you think all the companies have import models, or import companies associated with them. In the end, it comes down to what you value. Some people buy expensive shit, because they know they only get one life so may as well enjoy it. Others have the same thoughts, but get satisfaction from saving money. Everyone just thinks different, and thats why there is no good. Whats good for one is shit for another...............


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

The best players I know can make a piece of crap sound fantastic. Scary really.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

The guys that have put the effort and time into lessons and learning are the ones that sound great regardless of what gear they use . I've seen pro players plug into a low end guitar and amp and make them sound like $1M :smile:
It's the player that makes the gear , the gear does not a great player make .

I know for a fact that if I had put the effort and money I have put into chasing gear into lessons and learning I would be a much better player now .


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

I think if you buy a bare bones model from a reputable maker, you'll have a great guitar at a good price. Knowing a good instrument when you've got one in your hands helps.....a lot. A friend owns a Jeff Beck Sig Strat. It's a nice guitar, but at twice the price of my Highway One is it twice the guitar? Not at all. This will sound strange, but electric guitar players are obsessed with their guitars. In high school an old friend was the first in our circle of friends to own a U.S. made Strat. He played it through an awful little solid state amp and it sounded like ass. I have seen this repeated over and over again, and still do to this day. If your inclined to spend a little extra for good tone, buy a tube amp.....a good one. No offense to anyone who owns them, but Epi Valve Jrs and the like are not good tube amps. A good rule of thumb I read in the Dave Hunter book "The Tube Amp Handbook", is to spend as much on an amp as you do on your guitar. 1K on a guitar, 1K on the amp. This is as close to a good tone formula as I've come across. One only has to go to an L&M and have a staff member plug the 2K Les Paul your considering into a Fender Frontman, to know what I'm talking about. When buying any guitar insist on plugging it into one of the better amps in the store. This will best reveal what you can do with it when played through good equipment.

Shawn :smile:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm one of those who can afford the gear I want, but who recognizes the reality that talent and good ears will have MUCH more of an impact on your sound than throwing money at your rig.

I think with guitars, once you get to a baseline quality level in the $600 ~ $1500 range (yes that's a big range) you will see dramatically diminished returns whe you spend more. Same goes with amps.

It's in the hands man.

And yes, I'm also old, LOL.


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## yobbos1 (Mar 16, 2009)

I have two MIM Strats, a Prestige heritage Classic and a Hagstrom Viking. That's all the guitar sound I need or want. Amps are a different story. The quest continues there. My cheap Peavy Rage is all i have right now(junk). Going with a fender in the next 6 months or so.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Rugburn said:


> I think if you buy a bare bones model from a reputable maker, you'll have a great guitar at a good price. Knowing a good instrument when you've got one in your hands helps.....a lot. A friend owns a Jeff Beck Sig Strat. It's a nice guitar, but at twice the price of my Highway One is it twice the guitar? Not at all. This will sound strange, but electric guitar players are obsessed with their guitars. In high school an old friend was the first in our circle of friends to own a U.S. made Strat. He played it through an awful little solid state amp and it sounded like ass. I have seen this repeated over and over again, and still do to this day. If your inclined to spend a little extra for good tone, buy a tube amp.....a good one. No offense to anyone who owns them, but Epi Valve Jrs and the like are not good tube amps. A good rule of thumb I read in the Dave Hunter book "The Tube Amp Handbook", is to spend as much on an amp as you do on your guitar. 1K on a guitar, 1K on the amp. This is as close to a good tone formula as I've come across. One only has to go to an L&M and have a staff member plug the 2K Les Paul your considering into a Fender Frontman, to know what I'm talking about. When buying any guitar insist on plugging it into one of the better amps in the store. This will best reveal what you can do with it when played through good equipment.
> 
> Shawn :smile:



I actually think that amps are more important than guitars. A Squier into a great amp will give anyone a good tone....the person may not like the feel of the guitar but it will sound good.

I have a couple lower value guitars but no low end amps.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Archer said:


> I actually think that amps are more important than guitars. A Squier into a great amp will give anyone a good tone....the person may not like the feel of the guitar but it will sound good.
> 
> I have a couple lower value guitars but no low end amps.


I agree to an extent, but I think it depends on your opinion about WHAT good tone is.

I think guys who like a more tube like tone with sag and that sort of natural spongy compression and who tend to favour a little "hair" on their cleans will tend to need to spend more on amps to get the tone they want.


Just my opinion of course.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Milkman said:


> I think with guitars, once you get to a baseline quality level in the $600 ~ $1500 range (yes that a big range) you will see dramatically diminished returns whe you spend more. Same goes with amps.
> 
> It's in the hands man.
> 
> And yes, I'm also old, LOL.


I agree with this price range. Talk of "it's in the hands" or "great players can make crap sound good" is all well and good, but durable, reliable and toneful equipment is nice to have. I relied on dirt cheap gear for years, and it did the job. The first time I plugged my Strat into my Fender amp was a sound I'll never forget. And *nobody* can convince me otherwise.

Shawn :smile:


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## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

True if you like tube tone in general it will cost you more up front and in the long run to maintain. However not all tube amps are great.

I agree that a great amp will make a mediocore guitar shine but cheap guitars usually have cheap electronics and some even lack good or any shielding... there's no making that sound good.

It's a close reace but I feel too that amps are more important in the search for good tone.

Manufacturing these days can yield a far better bang for you buck subsequently there is better quality and more choices reaching the average player. I believe that $1000 - $1500 spent really well can get you a good guitar, amp, and all the necassary things to make music.

Cheers!


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Milkman said:


> I think guys who like a more tube like tone with sag and that sort of natural spongy compression and who tend to favour a little "hair" on their cleans will tend to need to spend more on amps to get the tone they want.


Absolutely


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

*tone*

I agree with ya... tone is subject to so many variables.. And the ability to play well can be one of them.. You know you can play a chord on different fret levels, you can make it sound heavy rock or tone it down.

I have some great guitars, and i have had some really bad ones. so i believe in buying a decent player, but you don't have to spend 1000's One of my best players is a Dearmond 335 style.. you can rock out but it also has that hollowbody sound..

The gear you have is pretty impressive, and as far as tone goes with that combination i don't think spending huge amount's of money you will gain very much.

How many people buy amps , sell amps but guitars, sell guitars and effects pedals and is still searching.

I have Gibson , rickenbacker, fender , and i play a cheaper Dearmond . When i walk into a Jam with my old Yamaha amp and Dearmond guitar, i usually get a comment on how well it sounds, so why change.

And my Yamaha amp sounds better playing out 'cranked up, then at home. I think i play pretty good, but i have a complex about walking in a room full of pro musicians, with a 4,000.00 gibson and a 3,000.00 Mesa amp and playing like crap.. haha

I think when you have very expensive high end gear, they expect a high end performance.
So when i use my old yammy and Dearmond, i feel no pressure.. haha
If i play like crap that day i can blame it on the gear,, haha

Rick


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I have an old Squire Pro-Tone Strat (Korean). I plug into a Peavey Classic 30. Sounds great! I have heard some great tones out of some pretty clapped out gear, but I kinda like some cheesy tones sometimes.


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## aloysius (Feb 15, 2009)

> I think with guitars, once you get to a baseline quality level in the $600 ~ $1500 range (yes that a big range) you will see dramatically diminished returns whe you spend more. Same goes with amps.


I completely agree. I have a very basic setup, in a american standard strat(750$ new), fender 600 5w amp(220$), martin 00015s(~$1800) and 2 pedals. 

I get solid tone and really enjoy playing. At my current skill level, would playing a 10,000 $ Martin and a 5000 $ custom shop electric make a 12,000$ difference? 
nah
I'll eventually get a Traynor blue, but thats it really. 

michael


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

define "Big $$$" please.


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## Steve_F (Feb 15, 2008)

No, you absolutely do not need to spend alot of money to have a good sound. It's more important to know how to use your gear than to buy insanely expensive stuff. having your guitar set-up and intonated, learning how to EQ your amp to get the sound you are after, these are all important lessons.

A $5000 custom shop guitar and a nice shiny new boutique amp never hurt, and yeah, maybe they are better than the standard stuff, but if you take a serious guitar player who knows what they are doing and give them a MIM tele and a Fender deville or something middle of the road like that, it's going to smoke someone who owns a ton of expensive gear and has no idea how to use it.

I mainly use a Gibson SG and a vintage Hiwatt, which could be considered fairly expensive stuff, but I've played out using stuff as cheap as epiphones, squiers, danelectros, plugged into old traynor combos, fender champs, solid state mystery amps, you name it, and I can almost always find a sound that works for me.

I've got to say though, if you are planning on making a big investment, get yourself a really good amp before anything else. A cheap squier strat plugged into a nice fender twin is going to blow the snot out of Fender USA strat plugged into marshall MG amp.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Law of diminished returns operates here.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

*tone*

If u want to thicken your tone up, a cheap way is heavier strings, and i heard of some using the neck pickup, which i have a hard time using.. brand new heavy strings can make a big difference, in your tone.
Rick


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Rick31797 said:


> If u want to thicken your tone up, a cheap way is heavier strings, and i heard of some using the neck pickup, which i have a hard time using.. brand new heavy strings can make a big difference, in your tone.
> Rick


We're not talking about thickening tone though, we're talking about getting better tone.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

And one listen to a ZZ top album demolishes the notion that big strings are needed for big tone.

Gibbons uses a 7-36 set


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## keefsdad (Feb 7, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> The best players I know can make a piece of crap sound fantastic. Scary really.


Yes, a lot of the best players I have known had very funky gear, the guys that make a living at it.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

Well i guess when i think of a better tone i think, of a thicker tone budda, but maybe your right there are people that like that tiny tinny tone, like when you turn the treble way up and the bass way down 

Rick


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## Guest (Apr 6, 2009)

I've typed this story out before so rather than type it again here's a link: http://www.guitarscanada.com/Board/showthread.php?t=20288&page=3#post173519

In a nutshell: not really.


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## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

I have personally witnessed a great guitar player pick up what would be considered to most here a piece of crap guitar and amp and make it sound AWESOME!

Likewise, I have also witnessed someone who has very expensive guitars and amp (over $3K each) sound like absolute crap.

Having good equipment is like having a decent set of golf clubs, good tools, etc. They will help to some extent in making you sound/play/function well... but you still need to know what you are doing.

I am sure Tiger Woods can play a kick ass round of golf on a set of $200 clubs... as can many excellent guitarists sound just amazing on low priced rigs. Money doesnt buy skill or talent.

AJC


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

ajcoholic said:


> I have personally witnessed a great guitar player pick up what would be considered to most here a piece of crap guitar and amp and make it sound AWESOME!
> 
> Likewise, I have also witnessed someone who has very expensive guitars and amp (over $3K each) sound like absolute crap.
> 
> ...


I'm sure Robben Ford or Joe Bonamassa could make an Epiphone Les Paul plugged into a Crate amp sound good but it would be their jaw dropping skills and soulful playing more than their tone that we would appreciate. Plus I'm not Ford or Bonamassa so I need all the help that I can get. But in the end, both Ford and Bonamassa recognize that better gear will help you sound better and they actually play top-of-the-line gear.

I guess my conclusion is that great gear doesn't a great player make but it certainly helps. It's also a lot more fun and inspiring to play a great guitar than to play a so-so one. I've had hot-rodded Epiphones and had fun playing them but when I got my current (great) guitars, they took my playing to another level entirely.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Archer said:


> And one listen to a ZZ top album demolishes the notion that big strings are needed for big tone.
> 
> Gibbons uses a 7-36 set


Really!? I had no idea. How do you even find a set that light?


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## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

pattste said:


> I'm sure Robben Ford or Joe Bonamassa could make an Epiphone Les Paul plugged into a Crate amp sound good but it would be their jaw dropping skills and soulful playing more than their tone that we would appreciate. Plus I'm not Ford or Bonamassa so I need all the help that I can get. But in the end, both Ford and Bonamassa recognize that better gear will help you sound better and they actually play top-of-the-line gear.
> 
> I guess my conclusion is that great gear doesn't a great player make but it certainly helps. It's also a lot more fun and inspiring to play a great guitar than to play a so-so one. I've had hot-rodded Epiphones and had fun playing them but when I got my current (great) guitars, they took my playing to another level entirely.


Not saying that good gear (or at least the best one can afford) is not to be had, I appreciate what I consider good tone, etc and have some decent gear myself. My point is, good gear does not a good sound make, on its own. Likewise, cheaper gear played well still sounds good.

AJC


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I don't have good gear because I need it. I have good gear because I want it. End of story.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

i dont equate better with thicker or else mud would be the best .

you can use regular gauge strings and sound massive.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

It's also important to note that many players choose to pay premiums for aesthetic and ornamental features such as highly figured tops, inlays, binding and well, admit it or not, the name on the headstock.

Nobody has to rationalize why or how they spend their money, but to suggest that these features impact sound or playability is not something I can swallow.


This is an old debate but many of the good ones are.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

Billy is getting his tone from all those little distortion pedals, that is his way around it.. If you want to compare.. Look at Angus Young.. 11-52 on his SG, and most important NO EFFECTS.

And most impressive is his playing using heavy strings.. I believe his brother uses the same gauge on his Gretsch.

Its just common sense.. heavier gauge thicker tone. If your tone is muddy then you better look at your pickups and speakers your using.

But again you don't need to spend alot of money to have a good set up.. I think the more simplified the better.

A better guitar can make you a bit better player, only because of the set up. I can play faster leads on my Les-paul because the action is so low, unlike my hollowbody.
So i am a better player on that guitar but only when playing fast leads, and it has 9-42 gauge strings as my hollowbody is 10-42.

Rick


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> I don't have good gear because I need it. I have good gear because I want it. End of story.


Straight and to the point. Now, we just hope the wimminfolk understand!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Budda said:


> Straight and to the point. Now, we just hope the wimminfolk understand!



They will never understand it. End of story. :smile:


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## Steve_F (Feb 15, 2008)

Rick31797 said:


> Billy is getting his tone from all those little distortion pedals, that is his way around it.. If you want to compare.. Look at Angus Young.. 11-52 on his SG, and most important NO EFFECTS.
> 
> And most impressive is his playing using heavy strings.. I believe his brother uses the same gauge on his Gretsch.
> 
> ...


Angus uses .009-.042 gauge gibson strings, and Malcolm uses .012-.056 wound G Gibson L-5 pure nickel strings. Live, both guitarists tune down one half step.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Want a good tone with light strings...Ted Nugent uses a light set on a Byrdland, which has a scale of only 23". Goes against all common sense, but it works. On the other hand, I bet I can make a $10,000 rig sound like crap! lol


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Interpreting the question being asked literally as, Do *I* need big $ to sound good?
The answer: Yes, *I *do.

Because I know I am not Angus Young, EVH, or any other of a thousand great guitarists. I made different choices in my life and lack the creativity and dedication to be in music 8-12hrs every day. As such, I have no illusions about being a great guitarist. So if a piece of equipment happens to give me a leg up to achieving a better sound, and its within my discretionary income, I'll buy it...
For every great guitarist that chooses to play with a raw naked set of gear, there at least 3 with massive racks, container full of expensive guitars, and other assorted gear and individuals responsible for making that gear soud good, hiding in the back. I dont judge either more for their choices.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Them's fightin' words!:sport-smiley-002:
> 
> Finding a great, and unique, blues lead tone is like the search for the holy grail - impossible and never ending! I've spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours on the "tone" quest. Then I came to the conclusion that good enough is enough. After that I could actually play my guitar rather than fiddle with knobs, eq, pedals and amps all day.
> 
> ...


What I mean by it, is some players like a really stripped down type of tone, others like something more processed sounding.
Here's a vid to illustrate. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fM5-fj79jgg
One guitarist (Reb) has a really organic, gritty tone. The other (Doug Aldrich) sounds very processed. Different people may prefer one over the other. Both great players, and although I might even say Reb could be the better player, Dougs rig sounds better to my ears.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Diablo said:


> What I mean by it, is some players like a really stripped down type of tone, others like something more processed sounding.


Whether you like a basic roots tone or something heavily processed you can spend big dollars


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## jfk911 (May 23, 2008)

i dont think you need to spend alot. right now im using line 6 stuff which by no means sounds amazing but sounds decent and i can live with it for now until i save up for my orange. Now if some one could suggest an amp that sounds like the orange rockerverb 100 for less then its 2300 price tag then id buy it but right now its the only amp that has really jumped out at me when i plugged in and started playing


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> They will never understand it. End of story. :smile:


Unless they play an instrument, or are into hobbies that cost some pretty pennies as well . Or are simply understanding of *why* we spend the money. Not many of us get that luxury :'(


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Well, everyone has the right to spend their money as they see fit, but I personally despise those dudes that walk into a room with an expensive Ibanez JEM and a triple recto full stack and proceed to sound like ass.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

*gear*

Noobcake.. i agree..i think i said the same thing in a way..when u see a guy with an expensive set up your first impression before he plugs in, is > wow This guy must be a great player.
Rick


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

noobcake said:


> Well, everyone has the right to spend their money as they see fit, but I personally despise those dudes that walk into a room with an expensive Ibanez JEM and a triple recto full stack and proceed to sound like ass.



I'm about as interested in listening to a crappy player with good gear as I am a crappy player with bad gear. I don't know why people single out crappy players with good gear. A crappy player is a crappy player. The gear has nothing to do with it. 
If a crappy player wants to spend money on good gear I haven't got a problem with it. As long as I don't have to listen.


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> I'm about as interested in listening to a crappy player with good gear as I am a crappy player with bad gear. I don't know why people single out crappy players with good gear. A crappy player is a crappy player. The gear has nothing to do with it.
> If a crappy player wants to spend money on good gear I haven't got a problem with it. As long as I don't have to listen.


Like I said, people have the right to do whatever they want with their money. My statement about crappy players with expensive gear is simply my personal opinion on the matter. To me, a crappy player with hordes of amazing gear is like a person that can hardly drive that owns a Lamborghini. It just doesn't make any sense to me. 

Then again..."whatever floats your boat?"....


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

one of the biggest collectors here in Calgary is a SLAMMING good player. Lots of dickheads think he is all cash and no chops....when he slices them to ribbons at a jam they learn otherwise.

The notion that good players usually dont have fancy gear is b/s. Just as stupid and offensive as a rich guy looking down at a kid playing a Squier and judging that kid.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> I'm about as interested in listening to a crappy player with good gear as I am a crappy player with bad gear. I don't know why people single out crappy players with good gear. A crappy player is a crappy player. The gear has nothing to do with it.
> If a crappy player wants to spend money on good gear I haven't got a problem with it. As long as I don't have to listen.


Ya made me laugh. 

Where would the music industry be without crappy players? Searching for better.... has fueled the whole industry. Good gear is mostly a matter of opinion. You guys can talk for decades about X vs Y guitar. They are sticks with strings. They have to be setup properly yes but they are still sticks with strings. 


But it doesn't apply to all instruments
Organs are another thing. You can't make a cheap organ sound like a B3. It's more of a level playing field there. You can play or not. The instrument is the same.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

shoretyus said:


> But it doesn't apply to all instruments
> Organs are another thing. You can't make a cheap organ sound like a B3. It's more of a level playing field there. You can play or not. The instrument is the same.


That's one thing I love about guitar, yet at the same time can be frustrating.

It's a very responsive instrument. It depends a lot on your touch.

It matters with organs as well--especially if they're touch sensitive--but it's different.

When I taught there were parents who thought their child playing guitar wasn't very good, when for the amount of time they'd been playing they were good, very good, or better.

They thought this because they compared that child to their other child playing the organ with touch sensitive turned off--so no matter how hard they banged the key it sounded the same. Then with an organ you can add your own accompaniment from the start--adding it yourself on the guitar takes time.

Not putting down organs-there are incredible organ players out there-just pointing out a learning curve difference.

Well maintained and well set up gear contributes more to good sound than $$ does. But having more cash shouldn't hurt--IF it's spent wisely.

As for paying more for ornamentation--sometimes the extra cost is merely for ornamentation, but sometimes the more ornate guitar is also a better made instrument. You just need to figure out the difference and whether it's worth it.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

zontar said:


> That's one thing I love about guitar, yet at the same time can be frustrating.
> 
> It's a very responsive instrument. It depends a lot on your touch.
> 
> Then with an organ you can add your own accompaniment from the start--adding it yourself on the guitar takes time.


I hear what your saying... A B3 is touch sensitive but you can't turn it off. Accompaniment is not on a B3. 

And yes a more ornate guitar is usually better because the builder is putting out more $$ for the raw materials and usually go the extra mile. There are exceptions though. Those really fancy inlayed instruments coming out of Vietnam come to mind.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

noobcake said:


> Like I said, people have the right to do whatever they want with their money. My statement about crappy players with expensive gear is simply my personal opinion on the matter. *To me, a crappy player with hordes of amazing gear is like a person that can hardly drive that owns a Lamborghini. It just doesn't make any sense to me. *
> 
> Then again..."whatever floats your boat?"....


Makes perfect sense to me. Some people like to collect, and some people just like beautiful things. What they do with them, or how effectively they use them is irrelevant. They buy them because they can afford to , and deserve everything they can afford to pay for, regardless of skill.

I dont personally get why someone who can drive would buy a Lamborghini and never drive it (Ferris Bueller), as to me it needs to be driven to be enjoyed, but I respect that others who can afford to, might enjoy simply owning it.

besides, who's to say all these "crappy guitarists with great gear" think they are crappy themselves? I can think of lots of famous guitarists that I think are crappy and that others think are Gods. I wont mention names as it will spark a whole new debate...but there are plenty of threads on the web of "over-rated guitarists" for example.
Noone wakes up in the morning looks in the mirror and thinks "I am one ugly MF". And yet, some of us must be


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

shoretyus said:


> I hear what your saying... A B3 is touch sensitive but you can't turn it off. Accompaniment is not on a B3.


Just commenting on the organs used where I taught--than B3's specifically.
But point taken.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

noobcake said:


> Well, everyone has the right to spend their money as they see fit, but I personally despise those dudes that walk into a room with an expensive Ibanez JEM and a triple recto full stack and proceed to sound like ass.


We all love the stories or movies of the poor kid who couldnt afford any good equipment, but had heart and perseverance and meets the arrogant rich kid with the sense of entitlement in the final round and beats him handedly and humbly in whatever competition is at stake (a la Karate Kid). 
But real life usually isnt so black and white. I dont begrudge anyone for their good fortune or commitment to starting off with good gear instead of crap. Theres no rule that says you have to start with crap gear and work your way up through endless upgrading and searching.


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## User_X (Feb 1, 2008)

Why can't a crappy player have good tone?

If the player can only bang out 3 chords and his gear sounds good he will sound good, too.

Tone is in the gear and expensive gear is not needed, either. The player just has to get it out.

Great playing ability is not required, a decent listening ear is, and a little gear savvy. Some gear sounds good with almost no adjustment and it all has limitations. Working within those limits keeps you sounding 'good.' It is, however, pretty easy to take good tone and screw it up.

The line between good and crap is not set by price, but getting that last 2% of personal goodness to your sound can be very expensive.9kkhhd


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

*guitar*

I have heard pro player's with the best gear sound bad...but you can blame it on the sound guy., he's the one they depend on to get it right.
Rick


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...tone is in the fingers.

not mine, unfortunately.



-dh


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

As a (dated) analogy, while I'm sure that Mario Andretti would be able to squeeze more out of a Pinto than I'd be able to squeeze out of a Ferrari, I'd expect that, as a professional, he would insist on using "professional-grade" tools in his profession and, as fun as it might be, I doubt you'd ever see him knocking about Mosport in a Pinto.

And, althought the Pinto may be all I need for my transportation needs, if my budget allows for me to drive a Lexus, or for that matter, a Ferrari, and it puts a smile on my face, makes me popular, or gets me laid then that's my choice and you're welcome to resent it at your lesure.

BTW, it is just an analogy .... the reality is that I have a reliable, well-built car that gets me from A to B with a few creature comforts - a very "workmanlike" car. 

I also have very "workmanlike" gear.


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## icronic (Jul 31, 2006)

> Why can't a crappy player have good tone?


They definitely can, but it's a lot tougher for a bad player to get good tone than a good one. Usually part of being a crappy player is having undeveloped ears, or simply being new to guitar. 

Also a lot of what we consider "good" tone, takes some real skill to properly handle. Steve Vai for example sounds like he's got great tone, but I can only imagine a crappy player on Vais setup would sound less pleasant than a screaming newborn put through a 1000watt amplifier with the treble and presence turned to 10. 

But it's certainly note impossible, I was actually a good example of this. I started playing gigs after only a year of playing the guitar. Yet I got tons of compliments on "how great" I was at playing the guitar. I wasn't great, I was a long LONG way from great. The only thing great about me was my tone. The funny thing was a lot of guitarists with far superior skills would try my setup because they loved my tone so much, and not a single one could sound good. 

I don't really think it's about technical know how, or proper EQing as much as it is finding the equipment that matches your "touch". This directly ties in with how much money you've got to spend. 

In my case I've progressively gotten better sounds as my amp gets cheaper. 

I started with a $3000 Mesa Roadster and just sounded awful with it. Downgraded to a $2200 Mesa Lonestar, which was better, but still really harsh and bright. Next was an $1800 Peavey JSX which I've still got. and it sounds great. Just because I got tired of carrying the JSX I went and bought an H&K Statesman for $1000, and as much as I love the JSX, the Statesman just blows the thing away. 

But I do think the better you are the less you have to spend to sound great. I remember one of my teachers some years ago used to play a stock squire through a one of those really cheap 15 or 20 watt fenders. An HRT maybe? Anyway, I've no idea how but he managed to get tones that sounded exactly like SRV with it. Nobody could figure out how he could do it, even the other teachers were amazed by it.


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2009)

allthumbs56 said:


> As a (dated) analogy, while I'm sure that Mario Andretti would be able to squeeze more out of a Pinto than I'd be able to squeeze out of a Ferrari, I'd expect that, as a professional, he would insist on using "professional-grade" tools in his profession and, as fun as it might be, I doubt you'd ever see him knocking about Mosport in a Pinto.


Hehehe...how about Nigell Mansell knocking about the Top Gear Test Track in a Suzuki Liana? :smile:


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## ben_allison (Sep 16, 2008)

If you can't play, you'll never have good tone. Hesitant playing, shaky fingers, horrible attack... blech.

But in response to the OP, just take pedalboards as an example; most pro boards are 75% Boss! Of the remaining 25%, half of that is made up of DL4's, Rats and Crybabys. The other half is miscellaneous.

A poor carpenter blames his tools.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

ben_allison said:


> ...just take pedalboards as an example; most pro boards are 75% Boss! Of the remaining 25%, half of that is made up of DL4's, Rats and Crybabys. The other half is miscellaneous.


With all due respect, that's a load of crap! Just look at the pedalboard thread on this site.

Matt


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

User_X said:


> Why can't a crappy player have good tone?


As violinists go, I would consider myself to be crappy, very crappy. I can move a bow and if I'm careful something musical comes out. To try and move that bow, or my fingers beyond my miserable fundamentals would make even the most toneful of million dollar Stratavarious' sound like a plywood cat.

In the same vein, a crappy guitar player is crappy because he doesn't know how to play the eight notes available to him with any sense of musicianship how to approach a note, how to bend it or choke it, or wiggle it's little head off. 

It will sound bad. And that's really all there is to it. Crappy is as Crappy does.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Of course you sound better. I plan to get a 1959 Gustavson DeTemple Rockmaster 3.5 and run it through a Three Rock Dumblator Mega Overdrive Super Special. I will sound better than Jimi-Jeff Clapton and Yngwie (I taught God haw to play Guitar) Malmsteen combined! :rockon2:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I sit behind a mixing console almost every weekend. 

My opinion based on this experience as well as one or two gigs as a musician is that the single most important factor in a good guitar sound is the player.

Again, once you get to a baseline of quality you really don't get much back in terms of improvements in your sound. I put that baseline at around $600 or so for guitars and probably twice that for amps.

No, you do not need big bucks to get big tone.

You need talent.


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Diablo said:


> We all love the stories or movies of the poor kid who couldnt afford any good equipment, but had heart and perseverance and meets the arrogant rich kid with the sense of entitlement in the final round and beats him handedly and humbly in whatever competition is at stake (a la Karate Kid).
> But real life usually isnt so black and white. I dont begrudge anyone for their good fortune or commitment to starting off with good gear instead of crap. Theres no rule that says you have to start with crap gear and work your way up through endless upgrading and searching.


Hence the reason why I started off my post by saying "Everyone has the right to do as see fit with their money"... More power to you if you have the dough to buy expensive gear. 

At the end of the day, it's more about attitude than the actual gear that you own. I have no problem with a humble, newbie player that plays through great gear. Hell, if he is really going to stick with it, starting off with great gear is going to save him money in the long run, since he will not need to replace any gear. On the other hand, cocky hot shots that flaunt their gear and suck ass tend to irritate me. I never express this irritation openly though, I keep it to myself.


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## ben_allison (Sep 16, 2008)

mrmatt1972 said:


> With all due respect, that's a load of crap! Just look at the pedalboard thread on this site.
> 
> Matt


I was talking about pro boards. Touring, signed musicians. In absolutely is what I said "crap." Exaggeration, yes, of course.

Check out HC's Pedalboards of the Stars thread. It's at what, 25,000+ posts? Some pro boards in there are _entirely_ Boss (Les Paul, the father of multi-track recording and, well, Les Pauls, included)! My point is that you do not need expensive gear to sound good. Often people pour loads of dough into their gear because, frankly, they can't hack it, and want to blame "teh toan," not some personal shortcoming.

I posted this on TGP today, and I think it applies: if you can't walk into a Long and McQuade, pickup any old Telecaster, a Blues Driver, and a DRRI, _you can't play_. I'm not saying this set up covers every need or every nieche (metal, shoegaze, etc), but as a player, you should be able to get some magical things happening with that setup. If not, my condolences.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

ben_allison said:


> Often people pour loads of dough into their gear because, frankly, they can't hack it, and want to blame "teh toan," not some personal shortcoming.


This sounds like someone's personal rant over their dissatisfaction at having to play their mexican guitar through a chinese amp.
The only thing worse than someone obsessed about their gear is someone obsessed about what others own.
Frankly I'm in clubs almost every week playing my gear and don't give 2 hoots to what others play.


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## ben_allison (Sep 16, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> This sounds like someone's personal rant over their dissatisfaction at having to play their mexican guitar through a chinese amp.


LOL! If you knew what gear I own, what gear I've been through, and what gear I've passed on, you'd realize how off base this observation was!

This is a gear forum right? We're allowed to talk about gear, and also the issues surrounding it... or have the rules changes?

If you don't give two hoots... what are you doing here?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

ben_allison said:


> LOL! If you knew what gear I own, what gear I've been through, and what gear I've passed on, you'd realize how off base this observation was!
> 
> This is a gear forum right? We're allowed to talk about gear, and also the issues surrounding it... or have the rules changes?
> 
> If you don't give two hoots... what are you doing here?



I don't give 2 hoots in the fact that I won't criticise (nor do I care) another musician for what they own. Whether its cheap expensive or whether they can play or not. I love talking gear but anyone who criticizes what someone owns is pretty lame.
You want to talk gear? I' all over that.


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## ben_allison (Sep 16, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> I don't give 2 hoots in the fact that I won't criticise (nor do I care) another musician for what they own. Whether its cheap expensive or whether they can play or not. I love talking gear but anyone who criticizes what someone owns is pretty lame.
> You want to talk gear? I' all over that.


Gotcha. Of course I agree; people can spend their money as they chose. I just think most people would be better off investing some more in lessons than in toys, as far as being a better player in concerned. But again, you earn the dollars, you decide where they go.

I was just making an observation about what some people do (from experience), not making any sort of generalization.


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## icronic (Jul 31, 2006)

ben_allison said:


> I posted this on TGP today, and I think it applies: if you can't walk into a Long and McQuade, pickup any old Telecaster, a Blues Driver, and a DRRI, _you can't play_. I'm not saying this set up covers every need or every nieche (metal, shoegaze, etc), but as a player, you should be able to get some magical things happening with that setup. If not, my condolences.


If you're going to make an overstatement of such monumental proportions could you have at least picked an Epiphone of some sort and a tubescreamer? There is only one person on this planet that has ever made a tele sound good to my ears, and I've yet to hear a blues driver sound even remotely pleasing.

Also, most of those pros that use all the boss pedals have had them modified in some way or another. Also, how many of them really have what you'd call great tone? Passable sure, but great? 

What factor even determines if you can or cannot play? Technique? Knowledge? Ear? 

I've seen a lot of technically gifted guitarists with shit tone, and a lot of sloppy players with great tone. Some people just have an ear for it and some don't.

No you shouldn't need to spend a ton of money to sound good, and if you've got to spend $3000 to sound good then you're obviously doing something wrong. But at the same time, a little extra money can certainly give someone with good tone, great tone.


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## ben_allison (Sep 16, 2008)

icronic said:


> If you're going to make an overstatement of such monumental proportions could you have at least picked an Epiphone of some sort and a tubescreamer? *There is only one person on this planet that has ever made a tele sound good to my ears*, and I've yet to hear a blues driver sound even remotely pleasing.




Page? Muddy Waters? Johnny Greenwood? Frisell? Etc etc etc. A Tele is _the_ essential guitar.



icronic said:


> Also, most of those pros that use all the boss pedals have had them modified in some way or another. Also, how many of them really have what you'd call great tone? Passable sure, but great?


Modded? You'd be surprised; many aren't.

Great tone? Absolutely. We don't establish our idea of tone from bedroom wankers. Going to shows and listening to records... that's what inspires all of us.



icronic said:


> What factor even determines if you can or cannot play? Technique? Knowledge? Ear?


No. It's so much simpler than all of that: you know if you can play if people want to listen to you.



icronic said:


> But at the same time, a little extra money can certainly give someone with good tone, great tone.


I fully agree. I've spent a lot of time and money on fancy boxes with lights and knobs. Sometimes it's splitting hairs, other times it's profound change. I tend to prefer booteek pieces. I just don't think they're necessary to producing listenable, enjoyable music.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

icronic said:


> I've seen a lot of technically gifted guitarists with shit tone,



Danny Gatton. But thats just my opinion.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

david henman said:


> ...tone is in the fingers.


I used to tell my students that everything in the path from their hands to the amp-for electrics-affected their tone--and the most important part was their hands.

Still, money spent wisely will help.

It make s a bigger difference in acoustics--but the hands are still #1


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## Spikezone (Feb 2, 2006)

I have some pretty nice guitars that I love a lot, a '75 Les Paul Standard that I have had since it was new, and a '95 G&L Legacy Standard, also since new. They are great guitars, and I do love them, but the guitar I go to most often is my $499 Yamaha SA500 (everybody will be tired of hearing about it-I post about it on here quite often, I know) played through my $750 Traynor YCV50BLUE. This to me is a great-sounding set-up at around $1300-not that expensive really compared to what else there is out there to choose from, but it works for me and I don't feel the need to spend any more dough on gear (but of course I'm sure I will LOL!).
-Mikey


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

icronic said:


> If you're going to make an overstatement of such monumental proportions could you have at least picked an Epiphone of some sort and a tubescreamer? There is only one person on this planet that has ever made a tele sound good to my ears, and I've yet to hear a blues driver sound even remotely pleasing.
> 
> Also, most of those pros that use all the boss pedals have had them modified in some way or another. Also, how many of them really have what you'd call great tone? Passable sure, but great?
> 
> ...




I don't think it was an overstatement at all. Regardless of which guitar, pedal and amp he used as a reference, I think his point is right on the mark.

Remember, the original topic is do you NEED to throw big bucks at a rig to get good tone? (I'm paraphrasing of course)


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

ben_allison said:


> I posted this on TGP today, and I think it applies: if you can't walk into a Long and McQuade, pickup any old Telecaster, a Blues Driver, and a DRRI, _you can't play_. I'm not saying this set up covers every need or every nieche (metal, shoegaze, etc), but as a player, you should be able to get some magical things happening with that setup. If not, my condolences.


Very true. Most of us could get a great Country or Blues tone out of that mix. Those of us that know Teles and DRRIs ( or have a good ear and a few minutes) could get a pretty fine Rock tone as well.

However, if you were "Mr. Crappy Player Personified" you would sound absolutely dreadful because you wouldn't realize that Teles actually have usable tone knobs (in fact - you *have* to use them) nor would you realize that a DRRI is naturally bright with potentially flubby bass and starts to come to life around "4", and adjust accordingly. 

So when Mr. CPP plugs in to the rig, turns the Tele volume and tone to full, the gain on the overdrive pedal up all the way, the level and tone at 1/2, DRRI Vibrato Channel, all knobs straight up - except the bass on "10" (cause he loves bass) and hits that big E chord....... well, my teeth are itching just thinking about it.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

When someone says this:


icronic said:


> If you're going to make an overstatement of such monumental proportions


...and follows up with this:


icronic said:


> There is only one person on this planet that has ever made a tele sound good to my ears,


Well, I just don't know what to say!!


Anyway, regarding the rest of the thread...I see a lot of interesting points being made and one of the things that I notice is when people speak of 'tone' but they are really talking of someone's 'sound'. I know that musicians have a bunch of terms that are used all of the time and such but to me the tone is the gear and the sound is what the player does with it. The 'tone is in the fingers' thing to me is untrue. I can pick up a guitar and plug it into an amp and hit one note or chord and it will have great tone. There even could be great tone if I sit the guitar down in front of the amp at the proper distance without my intervention.

Now when the technique, touch and phrasing enter into it all...THAT is someone's sound. The guitarist's SOUND is in their fingers...their TONE comes from the gear. 

Take a 15 watt s.s. amp and try to get 40 watt tube tones from it. Tube tone...it's tone. 

Get a good player who knows some well-known players' techniques and get him to get a certain player's sound from the 15 watt s.s rig. That can be done...but it doesn't have the tone. If the little thing is tweaked the right way it can put out a decent enough tone so that when someone plays it and imitates the SRV phrasing, vibrato, and attack then it sounds a lot like SRV.

I don't know...I suppose it is all semantics but when I go from my 1989(ish) KMD s.s. 100 watt combo to my 2005 Traynor Custom Valve 40 watt tube amp, my TONE changes but my SOUND is the same.


I also have to say that I agree with Milkman's $600 guitar theory.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Give me $500 for a guitar and $500 for an amp and I can probably come up with a rig that sounds as much like me as a $1500 amp and $1500 guitar would.

I'm not selling my rig to save some money though


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> Danny Gatton. But thats just my opinion.


I really like the stuff I've heard you post and trust that seeing you live would be a pretty impressive show, but I'm a BIG, BIG Danny Gatton fan and I have to say WHAAATTTT!!!?!!!? The stuff on YouTube is hit and miss, but the CDs I have are really good. To my ears an old school Tele through Blackface, Tweed, Brown and Blonde Fender amps with a Leslie thrown in would sound good in the hands of a chimp!! But that's just my opinion.

Shawn :smile:


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Danny Gatton. But thats just my opinion.


...and rory gallagher. and roy buchanan. very often, clapton has terrible tone.

usually, it just doesn't matter.

i do agree that your equipment _can_ inspire you but, of course, if you are _relying_ on your equipment to inspire, you will inevitably be disappointed.

-dh


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

*Is it April Fool's Day Or What?*



david henman said:


> ...and rory gallagher. and roy buchanan. very often, clapton has terrible tone.
> 
> usually, it just doesn't matter.
> 
> ...


I guess it's a miracle these guys ever got famous. Here I was thinking they sound amazing, when they were really duping me the whole time!! LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMcjPZgK9GM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IeXtjoOwus&feature=related

I think the kids call this "The White Stripes" these days

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33Jaodra7AY&feature=related

Enjoy, if you can Shawn :wave:


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

nkjanssen said:


> I'm sure nobody thinks that Clapton playing "Crossroads" on an SG through a Marshall sounds exactly the same as Clapton playing "Crossroads" on a Strat through a Twin. I suspect most people would greatly prefer one of those tones to the other. Yet the player is the same, the song is the same, the fingers are the same. They may both sound like Clapton, but one sounds better (to me) than the other.
> 
> Bottom line is that gear is part of the equasion. It's not the whole answer, but definitely part of it.


couldn't agree more!


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## icronic (Jul 31, 2006)

> Page? Muddy Waters? Johnny Greenwood? Frisell? Etc etc etc. A Tele is the essential guitar.


I like the music, but the tone just does nothing for me. I admit that I probably exaggerated when I said there is only one guy who I think sounds good with a Tele, but that's all I could actually think of at the time. I've thought of two others so far. Still even when Billy Gibbons goes and pulls out a Tele, a part of me cringes and wonders why the hell he isn't just playing his Gretsch instead. 

As far as it being the essential guitar, well the same argument can be made for both the Les Paul and the Strat as well. 



> Modded? You'd be surprised; many aren't.
> 
> Great tone? Absolutely. We don't establish our idea of tone from bedroom wankers. Going to shows and listening to records... that's what inspires all of us.


Well the music usually provides me with inspiration. Very rarely actual tone. That said, I don't quite understand what you mean by not establishing our idea of tone from bedroom wankers. If it sounds good, it sounds good, be it a bedroom wanker, a street busker or a pro musician. 

But again, I've seen my fair share of concerts, and the vast majority of guitarists out there just don't have that great of tone. Not bad by any means, and certainly functional, but it's an uncommon occasion when I find myself inspired by their tone, and most of the ones that do inspire me don't use boss pedals  Well except the DD-3 I see a lot of those, and how I wish mine weren't broken. 


> No. It's so much simpler than all of that: you know if you can play if people want to listen to you.


That's a great answer, and something I'd never really considered before. 

Although, there are plenty of people out there who want to listen to terrible modern rock bands who play unoriginal formula music that can't stay in key or play in time. So the standards are being set pretty low. Still this is probably an argument for another day in another thread. 



> When someone says this:
> ...and follows up with this:
> Well, I just don't know what to say!!


Why? One was a response to a blanket statement that basically said "you suck if if you can't sound good with this exact setup", and the other was purely my own personal opinion. 



> However, if you were "Mr. Crappy Player Personified" you would sound absolutely dreadful because you wouldn't realize that Teles actually have usable tone knobs (in fact - you have to use them) nor would you realize that a DRRI is naturally bright with potentially flubby bass and starts to come to life around "4", and adjust accordingly.
> 
> So when Mr. CPP plugs in to the rig, turns the Tele volume and tone to full, the gain on the overdrive pedal up all the way, the level and tone at 1/2, DRRI Vibrato Channel, all knobs straight up - except the bass on "10" (cause he loves bass) and hits that big E chord....... well, my teeth are itching just thinking about it.


This right here is why I even bothered making the argument at all. It's an unfair statement. Why are you a crappy player if you don't know about using the Teles tone knob, or if you have no idea about the characteristics of a DRRI?

It's about as fair as me saying that you're a crappy player if you can't sound good through a Dual Rectifer with an Ibanez JEM. I'm willing to put money on the fact that most people just couldn't get a good sound without spending a good many hours fiddling with it. 

The key point I agree with. You should be able to pick up a reasonably priced guitar and plug into a reasonably priced amp and sound good. I just didn't like the way he made the point.

Anyway, I guess I took the statement somewhat personally, he chose my least favorite guitar and least favorite OD pedal. Given that and I know for a fact I'd sound terrible. While I'm certainly not going to revolutionize the way people look at playing a guitar, I'd like to think that I'm somewhat beyond "crappy". 



> Now when the technique, touch and phrasing enter into it all...THAT is someone's sound. The guitarist's SOUND is in their fingers...their TONE comes from the gear.


I've been waiting a long time to hear someone say that. 

And the real key here is to find the right equipment to properly match your sound. It's not going to matter if you've got a $10,000 rig if all the equipment you've bought is totally and completely unsuitable to your sound. 

A big problem with a lot of players is that they are throwing a ton of money into their rigs to "fix" their tone instead of improve it. If you don't like the sound of your Mesa Lonestar 1x12 combo, then upgrading to a Head with a 4x12, and adding a bunch of studio rack gear is probably not going to make you like your tone and better. 



> I also have to say that I agree with Milkman's $600 guitar theory.


Absolutely. I think in reality the difference between a $600 guitar and a $3000 guitar as far as tone is concerned is reasonably minimal. Most of the difference in price really comes from the quality of materials and craftsmanship, and while with better electronics and pickups certainly comes better tone, it's not nearly enough to change bad tone to good tone. Unless of course the cheap guitar you bought happens to be a fake chinese Gibson.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Rugburn said:


> I really like the stuff I've heard you post and trust that seeing you live would be a pretty impressive show, but I'm a BIG, BIG Danny Gatton fan and I have to say WHAAATTTT!!!?!!!? The stuff on YouTube is hit and miss, but the CDs I have are really good. To my ears an old school Tele through Blackface, Tweed, Brown and Blonde Fender amps with a Leslie thrown in would sound good in the hands of a chimp!! But that's just my opinion.
> 
> Shawn :smile:



Don't get me wrong I love Danny Gattons playing. I have one of his instructional DVD's. But mostly I think he has a somewhat ugly tele tone. Not smooth. Very mid centric and rough sounding. But thats just my opinion.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> When someone says this:
> 
> ...and follows up with this:
> 
> ...


+1000!!! I agree and I had a hard time posting this because simply stating +1000 I get a message too short error so I'll just continue typing till its not too short.kqoct


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...and rory gallagher. and roy buchanan. very often, clapton has terrible tone.
> 
> usually, it just doesn't matter.
> 
> ...


After reading a thread about Roy Buchanan I thought I should go up to youtube and give a listen as I had never really listened to him. The first thing I noticed is I did not like his tone. Although it was evident why he was great for his playing. I was a bit aprehensive to say anything negative on a forum about Roy Buchanan as some can be fanatical about this player.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

I guess tone is a funny thing. I've ordered some early 50's spec Tele pickups because I love the tone both Danny and Roy get. It's true that most country pickers like the more modern twangier Tele pickups (i.e. Brad Paisley).


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> After reading a thread about Roy Buchanan I thought I should go up to youtube and give a listen as I had never really listened to him. The first thing I noticed is I did not like his tone. Although it was evident why he was great for his playing. I was a bit aprehensive to say anything negative on a forum about Roy Buchanan as some can be fanatical about this player.



You're not alone. I don't like Roy's sound at all, but I'm sure he would sound the same with most gear. It's what he wants to sound like. Never be reluctant to speak the truth. I do it regularly and face the heat.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

OK, how about this for a compromise. You do not NEED to spend big $ for tone. But if you can afford it, wouldn't it be a gas to go into the guitar shop and just pick out whatever you wanted? If you could, would you? Rhetorical question...


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> OK, how about this for a compromise. You do not NEED to spend big $ for tone. But if you can afford it, wouldn't it be a gas to go into the guitar shop and just pick out whatever you wanted? If you could, would you? Rhetorical question...


Not to put too fine a point on it, but no. I can afford most guitars within reason. No, not $250,000, but $5000 is no problem. Would I? Not likely. There's simply no rational reason in my opinion, other than to impress somebody else.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

ive never been a tone chaser- just strat into tube amp, crank it up. if it sounds bad, theres something wrong with the amp, use a different one.
when it comes to tones i admire and enjoy, its stuff like rory gallaghers tone on his first couple solo albums. strat into vox ac30 really. hendrix are you experienced- strat into a marshall or fender twin- coulda been some primitive fuzz as well, who cares. ritchie blackmore- strat into a cheesy tape deck amp, then into whatever amp. clapton with his strat into a champ.
so for me, i can get exactly the tones i want with a second hand japanese strat and a decent silverface fender amp(these are cheap). i can get the same tones with a $100 squier strat through the same amps- so long as the pickups are right- just to clarify.
theres nothing wrong with wanting those sounds that a $5000 setup gets you- as long as thats the sound you want. 
id hate like hell to sound like some guy with a prs and a boutique amp and a raft of expensive pedals, but thats because i dont personally want to sound like that. nothing wrong with somebody else sounding like that tho.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Not to put too fine a point on it, but no. I can afford most guitars within reason. No, not $250,000, but $5000 is no problem. Would I? Not likely. There's simply no rational reason in my opinion, other than to impress somebody else.



This type of attitude I have a problem with. Yes I agree you don't need to spend big $$'s to get good tone but don't fool your self in to thinking you're not going to get something extra special with spending extra. No simply spending more money doesn't gaurantee better tone but if you do the research there is some great boutique amps and guitars that will give you amazing tones. I've been playing for close to 30 years and have played everything from vintage (when it wasn't vintage) to expensive to cheap. I'm not trying to impress anyone because no one that would know, ever sees my gear. Patrons in clubs and even the other band members wouldn't know my gear from cheap gear. When I play through my Dr Z stangray or Victoria Victorilux there is definitely a difference then when I've played through a fender hot rod deluxe or chinese made Vox ac30. I'm not putting that type of equipment down. They are very good for what you pay for them. 
I admit to being a gearaholic. I've put a lot of research in to my rig this past year or so to come up with a sound that I envisioned with my playing ability. I've experimented with different types of NOS tubes and on and on. Yes I put lots of time in to this and yes its cost me money. Did I need to do this? No. But its all part of the hobby for me. Some people are in to photography and spend thousands on lens and camera bodies and filters. I have friends that are in to golf and spend thousands on equipment. I have a brother that was in to cars and spent thousands on chrome engine parts etc. 
I happen to be in to music and music gear. When it comes to actual gigging I could easily get away with a used 3 or 4 hundred dollar amp an $800 guitar and a few cheap effects. But simply gigging is only a part of the fun of it.
So don't hate on us that like our Suhrs and andersons or Fender Custom shops.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> This type of attitude I have a problem with. Yes I agree you don't need to spend big $$'s to get good tone but don't fool your self in to thinking you're not going to get something extra special with spending extra. No simply spending more money doesn't gaurantee better tone but if you do the research there is some great boutique amps and guitars that will give you amazing tones. I've been playing for close to 30 years and have played everything from vintage (when it wasn't vintage) to expensive to cheap. I'm not trying to impress anyone because no one that would know, ever sees my gear. Patrons in clubs and even the other band members wouldn't know my gear from cheap gear. When I play through my Dr Z stangray or Victoria Victorilux there is definitely a difference then when I've played through a fender hot rod deluxe or chinese made Vox ac30. I'm not putting that type of equipment down. They are very good for what you pay for them.
> I admit to being a gearaholic. I've put a lot of research in to my rig this past year or so to come up with a sound that I envisioned with my playing ability. I've experimented with different types of NOS tubes and on and on. Yes I put lots of time in to this and yes its cost me money. Did I need to do this? No. But its all part of the hobby for me. Some people are in to photography and spend thousands on lens and camera bodies and filters. I have friends that are in to golf and spend thousands on equipment. I have a brother that was in to cars and spent thousands on chrome engine parts etc.
> I happen to be in to music and music gear. When it comes to actual gigging I could easily get away with a used 3 or 4 hundred dollar amp an $800 guitar and a few cheap effects. But simply gigging is only a part of the fun of it.
> So don't hate on us that like our Suhrs and andersons or Fender Custom shops.


You really don't need to rationalize your opinions. I stated mine. They have nothing whatsoever to do with you and yours.

I've also played for more than 30 years. I have also owned gear from junk to boutique and have formed my opinions based on that

I don't hate anyone for how they spend their cash, but I'm not your wife. You don't need to try and convince me that your gear money is well spent.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Milkman said:


> You really don't need to rationalize your opinions. I stated mine. They have nothing whatsoever to do with you and yours.
> 
> I've also played for more than 30 years. I have also owned gear from junk to boutique and have formed my opinions based on that
> 
> I don't hate anyone for how they spend their cash, but I'm not your wife. You don't need to try and convince me that your gear money is well spent.



Milkdude, with all due respect you *do* pass your thoughts on as if they're truths. That's fine, but don't complain when someone else responds to them. You seem to have put a fair amount of effort into convincing others that more than X amount of $$ is a waste of money on gear. I doubt your posting this to impress this notion upon yourself. This kind of talk seems unnecessary IMHO. Just "face the heat" without the sass LOL


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Rugburn said:


> Milkdude, with all due respect you *do* pass your thoughts on as if they're truths. That's fine, but don't complain when someone else responds to them. You seem to have put a fair amount of effort into convincing others that more than X amount of $$ is a waste of money on gear. I doubt your posting this to impress this notion upon yourself. This kind of talk seems unnecessary IMHO. Just "face the heat" without the sass LOL


I'm sorry but I honestly do not know what you're talking about. Milkman passes his opinions for what they are...opinions and he's always been very clear about that.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

noobcake said:


> I'm sorry but I honestly do not know what you're talking about. Milkman passes his opinions for what they are...opinions and he's always been very clear about that.


yup- i agree. all he said was-
"Not to put too fine a point on it, but no. I can afford most guitars within reason. No, not $250,000, but $5000 is no problem. Would I? Not likely. There's simply no rational reason in my opinion, other than to impress somebody else."

the only way i could rationalize spending more than $1000 on a guitar would be to impress others. ive been at it almost 30 years myself, and high dollar stuff never made any sense to me.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

noobcake said:


> I'm sorry but I honestly do not know what you're talking about. Milkman passes his opinions for what they are...opinions and he's always been very clear about that.



Were all passing opinions! If you go at length to tell everyone that spending more than an average amount of money on your gear is a waste, then be prepared to hear an oposing view without lamenting it. I mean if you make a strong statement, which I'll stress again is fine with me, then don't say that the retort has nothing to do with you.....that's disingenuous. Stating something and walking away is one thing, but continuing to maintain a position infers a debate. It also suggests strongly that you believe it to be true. Sorry if this seems arrogant or misguided, but that's my call. 

Shawn.


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## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

I have spent some decent money on gear. To impress who? I live in a small town, and there are only a handful of players. I buy what I like to buy, for whatever I decide is a "good" price for me to spend. If someone thinks that I spent too much $$, they are entitled to their opinion, yes - but dont tell me why I bought my gear for XX dollars, thanks.

I thought this was a discussion on whether or not expensive gear is necessary to sound good? Not deciding for others why they spent what they did on gear.

AJC


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

ajcoholic said:


> I have spent some decent money on gear. To impress who? I live in a small town, and there are only a handful of players. I buy what I like to buy, for whatever I decide is a "good" price for me to spend. If someone thinks that I spent too much $$, they are entitled to their opinion, yes - but dont tell me why I bought my gear for XX dollars, thanks.
> 
> I thought this was a discussion on whether or not expensive gear is necessary to sound good? Not deciding for others why they spent what they did on gear.
> 
> AJC


I'm with you on that. I buy stuff because I want it, cause I think (wish) it may sound good in my hands, or maybe I just want to try it out. I don't gig. I don't play in a band (although I have to admit, I would like to) and none of my regular friends and associates play the guitar or any other instruments for that matter. They wouldn't know the difference between boutique and run of the mill or Gibson VOS and Epi. If I'm happy with how much I paid, I'm good with that even if I later find out I may have paid a little too much (I do get pissed if I get ripped off though!). 

I've spent many many days working my a$$ off and telling myself I didn't need something right away, save, invest, wait until tomorrow...Well tomorrow is now today. I'll buy whatever I want (within reason, I'm definitely not rich... not even close) and enjoy it for what it is. :food-smiley-004:


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Milkman said:


> but I'm not your wife. You don't need to try and convince me that your gear money is well spent.


great line...

As to the question that sparked it all--if I could afford to go in to a store & buy anything I wanted--I would--because it's what I want--not because it was flashy or expensive or whatever.


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## User_X (Feb 1, 2008)

On side "A" we have opinion: "You're deluded!"
On side "B" we have opinion: "You lack perception!"
:sport-smiley-002:

Continue.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Rugburn said:


> Were all passing opinions! If you go at length to tell everyone that spending more than an average amount of money on your gear is a waste, then be prepared to hear an oposing view without lamenting it. I mean if you make a strong statement, which I'll stress again is fine with me, then don't say that the retort has nothing to do with you.....that's disingenuous. Stating something and walking away is one thing, but continuing to maintain a position infers a debate. It also suggests strongly that you believe it to be true. Sorry if this seems arrogant or misguided, but that's my call.
> 
> Shawn.


I'm not saying that you are incorrect in your interpretation of what he has stated but I'm just going to say that I didn't take his statement that way at all. I took it to simply stand for the law of diminished returns or whatever the term is. 'The sound of the $600 guitar is inferior to the $700 or to the $1500 guitar in which way' sort of thing. I know that it would be very difficult to place a number on or anything but I think in most cases it is likely such a small (or refined) difference as to be unnoticeable.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> I'm not saying that you are incorrect in your interpretation of what he has stated but I'm just going to say that I didn't take his statement that way at all. I took it to simply stand for the law of diminished returns or whatever the term is. 'The sound of the $600 guitar is inferior to the $700 or to the $1500 guitar in which way' sort of thing. I know that it would be very difficult to place a number on or anything but I think in most cases it is likely such a small (or refined) difference as to be unnoticeable.


Unnoticable to some not to others. But remember you don't just spend money on tone alone. Quality, craftsmanship, features, looks etc. Milkman is being very judgemental and ignorant in his opinion that people buy expensive simply to impress. And as much as he states he's not generalizing, he infact is. Now I'm just calling it the way I see it, honestly. If that ruffles a few feathers well so be it. I certainly don't make any generalizations as to why people buy cheap gear or that their cheap gear can't produce great sounding music.
The law of diminishing returns can't possibly apply. Expensive gear isn't going to hold the same value or priority to everyone.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Rugburn said:


> Milkdude, with all due respect you *do* pass your thoughts on as if they're truths. That's fine, but don't complain when someone else responds to them. You seem to have put a fair amount of effort into convincing others that more than X amount of $$ is a waste of money on gear. I doubt your posting this to impress this notion upon yourself. This kind of talk seems unnecessary IMHO. Just "face the heat" without the sass LOL


If you read this into my words, that's your misterpretation. I try my best to be clear, but not everybody gets it.

My opinions are exactly that, OPINIONS. I have stated that ad nauseum but some people just seem to want to ignore that. Stating so after every sentence really makes for awkward reading.

Spending more than X amount of $$ IS a waste of money on gear, a waste of MY money.

Spend yours as you see fit. 

Need I remind you of the question in the original post? That's what we're supposed to be discussing, and after all, this IS a forum.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Unnoticable to some not to others. But remember you don't just spend money on tone alone. Quality, craftsmanship, features, looks etc. Milkman is being very judgemental and ignorant in his opinion that people buy expensive simply to impress. And as much as he states he's not generalizing, he infact is. Now I'm just calling it the way I see it, honestly. If that ruffles a few feathers well so be it. I certainly don't make any generalizations as to why people buy cheap gear or that their cheap gear can't produce great sounding music.
> The law of diminishing returns can't possibly apply. Expensive gear isn't going to hold the same value or priority to everyone.



I make statements of my opinions and you continuously feel the need to defend yourself. It's as clear as the nose on my face. Relax. Spend your money how you see fit, and don't worry about my opinions. I'm not judging you or anyone else. For me, $5000. for a guitar would be a waste of about $4000. I know I won't sound or feel any better for the extra money. For you it may be beneficial or even necessary. That's up to you to decide.


My feathers are fine. You're the one who keeps quoting me and defending yourself.


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## ben_allison (Sep 16, 2008)

smorgdonkey said:


> When someone says this:
> 
> ...and follows up with this:
> 
> ...


You said it all right there 

:rockon2:


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## ben_allison (Sep 16, 2008)

icronic said:


> Well the music usually provides me with inspiration. Very rarely actual tone. That said, I don't quite understand what you mean by not establishing our idea of tone from bedroom wankers. If it sounds good, it sounds good, be it a bedroom wanker, a street busker or a pro musician.


When we start listening to music, what we hear to affects our perceptions, desires, and preferences. This all sarts _before_ you even take an interest in music; it starts in infancy. What is it you are listening to? The performances of professional musicians.

The Beatles. Zeppelin. Abba! Whatever you happen to be in close proximity to will affect your opinion, one way or another.

So when it comes time for you to make your own tonal choices, your doing so with an established grammar and vocabulary, so to speak, based on what you have already heard; again:

Professional performances.

Of course, you through consciousness, self-awareness, and intentionality, can intervene (somewhat); but your development as a _hearer_ has depended almost entirely on the sum total of everything you have _heard_ up to that point

By the time you make it to your first bedroom wank fest, your mind is large part, already made up – the neurons have been firing for years.


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## ben_allison (Sep 16, 2008)

The simple answer is this:

_You get what you pay for, BUT, a poor carpenter blames his tools; as with most things in life, there is a point of diminishing returns._

Axioms!!1!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> I make statements of my opinions and you continuously feel the need to defend yourself. It's as clear as the nose on my face. Relax. Spend your money how you see fit, and don't worry about my opinions. I'm not judging you or anyone else. For me, $5000. for a guitar would be a waste of about $4000. I know I won't sound or feel any better for the extra money. For you it may be beneficial or even necessary. That's up to you to decide.
> 
> 
> My feathers are fine. You're the one who keeps quoting me and defending yourself.



I'm not defending my self. I respond to what you say. You are in fact the one thats on the defense. You now change your tune to these are your opinions based on what you decide to spend for your self. When originally you stated "people who spend large amounts of money are just trying to impress others". Lets at least stay with the facts. There were other statements made by you that enforce this type of attitude but I'm not gonna bother going back to quote them. 
Since we got really off track I think the original question was "do you need to spend large amounts of money to sound good"? Answer: No you don't. But lets not forget that a large amount of money is different to everyone. Its nothing for some to drop $4,000 on a guitar as that might constitue pocket change to them. Others, $800 may represent a large amount of money.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> After reading a thread about Roy Buchanan I thought I should go up to youtube and give a listen as I had never really listened to him. The first thing I noticed is I did not like his tone. Although it was evident why he was great for his playing. I was a bit aprehensive to say anything negative on a forum about Roy Buchanan as some can be fanatical about this player.



...i should have added that, for me at least, a guitarist's tone is secondary and, to a great degree, purely academic. i listen first and foremost to the playing. if he/she has great tone, all the better.

-dh


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...i should have added that, for me at least, a guitarist's tone is secondary and, to a great degree, purely academic. i listen first and foremost to the playing. if he/she has great tone, all the better.
> 
> -dh


To me everything is secondary to the playing skills. Tone is a part of the consideration. I do put time in to my sound, combining my technique with different types of equipment. Since I no longer depend on music to make a living it really doesn't matter what I own. So in that way I own what I own clearly for my enjoyment. I'm not entering the PGA tour any time soon but I enjoy my pricy golf clubs.


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## ben_allison (Sep 16, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> To me everything is secondary to the playing skills.


Through my various rigs, I've had people come up to me who know nothing about guitar gear or tone, and go "Wow, those sounds were so beautiful."

Afterward I'll set someone wank around on my rig; thing sounds AWFUL. Unlistenable...

The only thing that accounts for that difference in tone, on the same rig, is the player. And the difference can be rather drastic.


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## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

when I first started I had (still have) an indonesian squier strat and fender frontman 25 watt amp....I thought it sounded like the angels had descended from above....till I got better - and I started to think more about the tone I wanted vs the whole beginner's "look - I pluck the string and the noise comes outta that little black box" thing....

fast forward to today - I am very keen on the tone and find myself like many of you - on a quest for that certain tone. I personally love the tone that I get out of my MIM strat and the traynor amp......neither were particularly expensive....so I personally have found that great sounding tone can be achieved with inexpensive gear (now to work more on the playing ability )

would I still like to get a brutally expensive custom flashy guitar - YOU BET!..the tone may improve - but my reasoning would be more for look, feel, owning a beautiful piece of art.


as far as the amp goes - pretty happy right now....but that'll change I am sure.

the lead guitarist that plays in my group......he plays on very inexpensive squiers through a peavy classic 30 and the tone is unbelievable...that guy could make a 2X4 with binder twine sound incredible...supporting the "tone is secondary" - playing ability is first note in previous posts


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

no you don't have to spend big $. Unless you want to.

I have a friend in Edmonton (I'm in Calgary) that I jam with maybe a couple of times a year. I found hauling an amp back and forth was a real pain, and was in my local geetar shop one day, he had a little (don't laugh) Harte mini stack in there for $399. 2 channels, 12AX7 on the pre, I thought it sounded okay, and the price was definitely right. So I bought it to keep at my buddy's house. 

One night I was in Edmonton on business, didn't bring a guitar with me, and they wanted to get together for a jam. His neighbor brought over a PRS Santana SE for me to play. He'd paid IIRC $300 for it, used. Luckily for me it had the early round neck profile - I dislike the thin flat necks. And he let me take a screwdriver to it to get it set up.

So I'm playing a total rig that's worth $700. And it sounded just fine.

The gear I normally use is worth a lot more. A lot. But that's because I enjoy music as a hobby, I will spend what I consider reasonable on gear. 

It's really the little things you pay for when you start getting up in gear prices. That extra little bit of guitar tone can cost a lot. To some it's worth it, to most it really isn't.

Long and McQuade don't keep their doors open selling $6500 '59 Reissue Les Pauls. They keep them open selling the lower priced gear day in and day out.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

ben_allison said:


> Through my various rigs, I've had people come up to me who know nothing about guitar gear or tone, and go "Wow, those sounds were so beautiful."
> 
> Afterward I'll set someone wank around on my rig; thing sounds AWFUL. Unlistenable...
> 
> The only thing that accounts for that difference in tone, on the same rig, is the player. And the difference can be rather drastic.


That's the thing though...the people who 'know nothing about gear or tone' can't listen through the playing to analyze tone.

You can't listen through the 'wanking around on your rig' to hear that the tone is not the problem...it's the wanking.

People who can't play normally are too impressed by the musicality to be able to analyze tone and people who can play typically can't stand to hear someone who can't play regardless of tone.

It's like just about every kid that gets their first 15 watt practice amp and puts the treble on 10 because they hear all of these guitar players with singing high notes. They know d!ck about playing and they know d!ck about tone. Both are areas that require the acquisition of knowledge and skill through practical application.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> I'm not defending my self. I respond to what you say. You are in fact the one thats on the defense. You now change your tune to these are your opinions based on what you decide to spend for your self. When originally you stated "people who spend large amounts of money are just trying to impress others". Let's at least stay with the facts.



That' agreat idea. When you put quote marks around a statement you should make bloody sure it's actually a quote and not your spin on what was said.

I did not say what was indicated in your "quote". In fact I said, 


Originally Posted by Milkman 
Not to put too fine a point on it, but no. I can afford most guitars within reason. No, not $250,000, but $5000 is no problem.* Would I?* Not likely. There's simply no rational reason in my opinion, other than to impress somebody else.

Notice the word "I" stated several times there? I didn't say "People". This completely changes he meaning of the statement.


If you want to have any credibility you should get your facts straight.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

dwagar said:


> Long and McQuade don't keep their doors open selling $6500 '59 Reissue Les Pauls. They keep them open selling the lower priced gear day in and day out.


Absolutely, but those 6500 dollar guitars sell like hotcakes out of the Calgary L&M.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

If you hang the odd picture around the house, a $5 Mastercraft hammer works just fine. If you have a woodworking hobby you probably have a $20 Stanley. If you are a professional carpenter then you have a $65 Estwing.

If you're Liberace then you have no idea what a hammer is for, but you own a one-of-a-kind diamond encrusted million dollar one because it must be the best.

:smile:


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## gibsonlp04 (Apr 26, 2007)

I have read a few of people say that a great guitar player can make anything sound good. Which I do agree with to a certain extent. IF you take a great guitar player with a squier strat or epiphone les paul through a descent amp and then A/B that same player with a cutsom shop guitar(or something else the house down payment bracket) and a great amp, i honestly cant beleive someone would be able to say that they didn't sound better. So, no you don't HAVE to spend big bucks to sound good but I think you need to spend big bucks to sound Great. IMO of course. 

ps. guitarman2 never give up on the tour! we're all only a few good shots away  :2guns:


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> That' agreat idea. When you put quote marks around a statement you should make bloody sure it's actually a quote and not your spin on what was said.
> 
> I did not say what was indicated in your "quote". In fact I said,
> 
> ...



I'll give up now as you're being quite ridiculous.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> I'll give up now as you're being quite ridiculous.


I'm calling a spade a spade.

If you're going to quote someone, quote them. If you want me to stick to facts, do so yourself.

Ridiculous?


If you live in a glass house, don't throw stones.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

nkjanssen said:


> To be fair, to say "I would not...because there is no rational reason..." means that _you_ would not, because _in the general sense_ there is no rational reason. That is most definitely passing a judgement on others. Or that's certainly how I read it anyway. Maybe you didn't mean that.



If you interpret it that way, I think you are leaning that way.


"I would not.....because there is no rational reason" (for me to do so) is also a logical way to interpret the statement and more appropriate based on the generous use of "I" in the statement leading up to that point.

Misinterpretation is one thing. Completely misquoting someone to spin it your way is another, wouldn't you agree?


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

nkjanssen said:


> I'm not sure what that means, since I'm not sure what "leaning that way" means.
> 
> Regardless, guitarman2 read your post in the same sense I read it. Your post seemed rather condescending to anyone who had spent any appreciable amount of money on a rig. You certainly seemed to me to say that the only reason anyone would spend a lot of money on a rig is to impress others. Apparantly that wasn't what you meant and you've clarified that. I guess you meant that the only reason _you_ would spend a lot of money on a rig is to impress others and that _you_ wouldn't do that. I'm not entirely sure that makes sense, but I think we can probably leave it at that.
> 
> At this point we are way off topic.



Leaning that way? It means having an inclination toward a certain point of view and viewing things from that perspective. Nothing wrong with that. We all lean one way or another. As for condescending, whatever. I make no apologies for stating my opinions. I don't decide what anyone should do with their cash, but if a question is posed in an open guitar forum and I have an opinion based on experience.....




Onward.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

I own a nice vintage tube amp. It's 43 years old and in pretty damn good shape. These amps sell for about $1500-$2000 in the shape mine's in. I didn't pay that much for it, but I can see why someone would. I've given it's reissues a test drive, and though they're decent, they don't have "it" IMO. So to answer the OP's question....if you want "that" tone, you may just have to pay for it. Having said that, I play my little Micro Cube just about every day. As an example that little $190 amp and my $600 Ibanez archtop sound like this:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=917786&songID=7353635

Decent enough for $800 IMHO.

Shawn :smile:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

nkjanssen said:


> I'm just not sure what "way" you're talking about. I stated previously that, in my opinion, you don't need to spend a lot of money to get great tone. I think that's what you said and that guitarman2 also said. Aren't we all "leaning" the same "way" in that regard? It seems to me you want to provoke, inflame and accuse rather than discuss. It's more fun, perhaps?
> 
> Onward.


Nah I just don't take crap from people.

Onward.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Rugburn said:


> I own a nice vintage tube amp. It's 43 years old and in pretty damn good shape. These amps sell for about $1500-$2000 in the shape mine's in. I didn't pay that much for it, but I can see why someone would. I've given it's reissues a test drive, and though they're decent, they don't have "it" IMO. So to answer the OP's question....if you want "that" tone, you may just have to pay for it. Having said that, I play my little Micro Cube just about every day. As an example that little $190 amp and my $600 Ibanez archtop sound like this:
> 
> http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=917786&songID=7353635
> 
> ...



love the clip. Nothing wrong with that rig for sure.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> love the clip. Nothing wrong with that rig for sure.



Thanks very much Terry. I'm not trying to advocate any particular gear or my playing. I just wanted to show that at 1/3 the price of my #1 amp and guitar combo, you can still get a decent sound.

Shawn :smile:


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## starjag (Jan 30, 2008)

I like it when people finish a posting with the word "onward" and then post again regarding the same topic.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I was actually beginning to think, "OMG, here were go again." But the thread got back in line. Pheww!


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Rugburn said:


> I own a nice vintage tube amp. It's 43 years old and in pretty damn good shape. These amps sell for about $1500-$2000 in the shape mine's in. I didn't pay that much for it, but I can see why someone would. I've given it's reissues a test drive, and though they're decent, they don't have "it" IMO. So to answer the OP's question....if you want "that" tone, you may just have to pay for it. Having said that, I play my little Micro Cube just about every day. As an example that little $190 amp and my $600 Ibanez archtop sound like this:
> 
> http://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_songInfo.cfm?bandID=917786&songID=7353635
> 
> ...


Yeah, Micro Cubes are solid little amps. I played one for about a year or two to hold me off until I could piece together a giggable rig. The jc clean channel records beautifully with the line out :smile:


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Uggghhh 15 ugly pages.

of course money helps tone.

All i know is, when I play my 5150 based amp and Charvel, I sound just like EVH. When i tried a Carvin VL100 a couple weeks ago I sounded so much like Vai it was scary. When I play my Les Paul, do you know who I sound like?? Wait for it....LES PAUL! I'm sure when I get my new Randall Lynch Box next week I'll sound like George as well. Its not rocket science boys, they even name the amps to tell you what you're going to sound like! C'mon, these are billion dollar companies, they know what they're doing....they can start wars if they want!





Ok seriously, I dont even get why we've all gotten caught up in a thread with such an obvious response. *Noone* believes the sound is 100% in the gear. Everyone knows skill and taste is critical.

if I buy a Montblanc pen, it does not mean I will be able to right beautiful poetry or ink multi-million dollar real estate deals, and everyone knows that. Chances are I wont be Shakespeare or Buffett no matter what pen I write with. But if I choose to buy one because I like the way it looks and its more enjoyable for me, why should all the Bic users hate / resent me? jealousy is so petty. And all this talk sounds like reverse snobbery.

This was considered one of the best commercials of all time... but I doubt 90% of the posters in this thread would get it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GURTHAw86aw


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

lately my poetry isnt happening. it lacks the punch and direction it used to have. obviously i need a Montblanc pen.
:smile:


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Diablo said:


> if I buy a Montblanc pen, it does not mean I will be able to right beautiful poetry or ink multi-million dollar real estate deals, and everyone knows that.


You are correct...BUT...you WILL be able to write in exactly the same colour as anyone who uses the same pen.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

smorgdonkey said:


> You are correct...BUT...you WILL be able to write in exactly the same colour as anyone who uses the same pen.


Might that not depend on how hard you press when you write?:smile:


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## icronic (Jul 31, 2006)

zontar said:


> Might that not depend on how hard you press when you write?:smile:


Don't forget that the weight and colour of the paper could also have a slight effect on the shade of ink!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

starjag said:


> I like it when people finish a posting with the word "onward" and then post again regarding the same topic.


Do you? Me too.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

zontar said:


> Might that not depend on how hard you press when you write?:smile:


It isn't a crayon!!!


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## waynekp (Aug 9, 2008)

After reading all 15 pages of this, I may as well weigh in with my two cents. My gear is cheap by most standards, even my own. I would love to own really expensive gear, for various reasons, including to impress others, so i really don't have a high horse to sit on with respect to these matters. Owning top of the line equipment will not make me a better player. It will slightly influence the sounds that come from the things that I do, but it won't make the things that I do any more effective. I think that there is a minimum for the amount that you should spend to try to achieve good tone. I have a little Randall practise amp here, the cheapest one i could find at the time, and the sound is just terrible. I firmly believe that is the amps fault. I don't believe that I need the $2500 boutique amp, but I also think that $99 was too little to spend. It really does sound like ass. In my own personal experience, I sat down with a Taylor 814 acoustic, and a Taylor 214. There was a subtle difference between when I played the $4000 guitar, vs. the $1000 guitar, side by side. Was it enough for me to justify spending an extra $3000 on a guitar? I went home with the 214. The difference was so small, that I wouldn't have been able to tell unless they're played side by side. I strongly believe that everyone has to justify their expenditures to themselves and their family. It all depends on the individual, their tastes and their personal situation. I can't afford the $4000 Gibson Les Paul Supreme that I've been lusting after, hopefully it won't always be that way. I wouldn't begrudge anyone else for buying that same guitar, even if it never leaves their bedroom. They can afford it, they want it, why not? My only opinion on that matter would be, nice guitar, make sure you take good care of it. As for the little war thats been going on for the last several pages, I think that you're all splitting hairs. Whether it was stated as fact or opinion, does it really matter? Its really not worth getting that upset over these discussions. You've all made your points, and whether you're right or wrong and everyone else is right or wrong, we'll have all likely forgotten about this whole discussion in two weeks anyway.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Well said Wayne. I think you are right on with the diminishing returns on the equipment too. I have a '93 Pro-Tone Squire, a Peavey Classic 30, an '81 tube screamer and a '93 Simon and Patrick acoustic. In all I have about $1300 invested and could probably get it all back if I sold it all, but that would make me cry. I would love some great equipment, even though my playing does not warrent it, and I never play in front of people. I guess it is just the "gear whore" part of me, or, I think that they are just beautiful. Probably a bit of both.


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## elindso (Aug 29, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Danny Gatton. But thats just my opinion.


Ed Bickert.

Me. 

I've got great tone. 

Not good great.

Sometimes.

I was in a store with in PA a friend a while ago. We played everything there. I played a Taylor that cost 768 on sale. It sounded better to me that all the Martins, Gibsons and expensive Taylors and some ofr them were over 4 grand U.S.
I shoulda bought it but I already have to nice flatops. It's not always price. I'm no pro, but I can get by. This sounded great.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Oops, made a mistake on the dates of my guitars, they are both '96's. I just did some reading up and found the bill and the squire's were actually made by Cort in Korea.
I paid $700 for both the S&P acoustic and the Pro-Tone. I had a $200 trade in on a Cort Strat. I guess, from what I read, the Pro-Tone is actually quite collectable because of the quality. There goes my mod plans, lol. It has quite a thin neck, but has been stable as a rock.


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## Samsquantch (Mar 5, 2009)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Well said Wayne. I think you are right on with the diminishing returns on the equipment too. I have a '93 Pro-Tone Squire, a Peavey Classic 30, an '81 tube screamer and a '93 Simon and Patrick acoustic. In all I have about $1300 invested and could probably get it all back if I sold it all, but that would make me cry. I would love some great equipment, even though my playing does not warrent it, and I never play in front of people. I guess it is just the "gear whore" part of me, or, I think that they are just beautiful. Probably a bit of both.


I've got a Peavey Classic 30 as well and it's an incredible amp for the money. I like it better than most Fenders I've played. I find most Fenders to be too 'woofy' sounding...


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## Corrode (Apr 8, 2009)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Well said Wayne. I think you are right on with the diminishing returns on the equipment too. I have a '93 Pro-Tone Squire, a Peavey Classic 30, an '81 tube screamer and a '93 Simon and Patrick acoustic. In all I have about $1300 invested and could probably get it all back if I sold it all, but that would make me cry. I would love some great equipment, even though my playing does not warrent it, and I never play in front of people. I guess it is just the "gear whore" part of me, or, I think that they are just beautiful. Probably a bit of both.


Gear whoring is an essential part of being a guitar player. It comes right before practicing.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I wouldn't actually classify myself as a "guitar player" , hobbyist maybe. lol


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

elindso said:


> Ed Bickert.
> 
> Me.
> 
> ...



I wonder if that is the Taylor 110 you tried. I tried one up at pongettis in hamilton and I was very impressed for a guitar under a grand. It sounded great.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

nkjanssen said:


> I'm just not sure what "way" you're talking about. I stated previously that, in my opinion, you don't need to spend a lot of money to get great tone. I think that's what you said and that guitarman2 also said. Aren't we all "leaning" the same "way" in that regard? It seems to me you want to provoke, inflame and accuse rather than discuss. It's more fun, perhaps?
> 
> Onward.



I'm suspicous of people that say something then when you call them on it they plead loopholes like no exact quote even though the meaning is the exact same, then argue to the nth degree to get you to "lean" a different way then they say you are leaning blah blah blah. Arguing with this type of person is futile. Backpedaling is obvious.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

*tone*

You have to agree that, tone is subjective to the person listening. You have to agree that some post's there is no real clear answer. You have to agree this is one of them..
Because ???
There are way to many variables that can effect your tone., and the bottom line is it depends on the individual.

I just heard a band play, that had all high end gear,$$$$$ mesa amps, Vox amps ,Gibson. Fender, and there own sound tech, and they sounded like crap.. what happened along the way??

But if you took a survey, of the concert. about the tone, you would probably get in the high 90 % that it was good.
AS a Muscian i am more fuzzy, about tone .. I want to hear the tom's and high-hat on a drum kit.

So i am happy with the tone i have through my cheap amp, and guitar even though there may be people put there , that says it sounds like crap.

Rick


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## z0z0 (Feb 19, 2009)

I just found out that you do not need to spend big $ on big brand names.

I just bought a Carparelli S2 at DoS in Barrie that sounds absolutely fantastic. It sounds as good if not better than the guitars that some of m friends have that cost twice as much.


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## canadiangeordie (Jan 10, 2009)

ben_allison said:


> I posted this on TGP today, and I think it applies: if you can't walk into a Long and McQuade, pickup any old Telecaster, a Blues Driver, and a DRRI, _you can't play_. I'm not saying this set up covers every need or every nieche (metal, shoegaze, etc), but as a player, you should be able to get some magical things happening with that setup. If not, my condolences.



Had to get involved here. Mr. Allison, opinionated self-promoters like you are the very reason i stayed away from the instrument for several years. You appear to be putting forth your input for all the wrong reasons.

The guitar is about enjoyment, ambition, and aspiring to hopefully create something akin to what make you pick the axe up in the first place. 
the Tele is *not* the essential instrument to me or many others, nor will it ever be. 

Keep your criticisms and knock-backs to yourself. Some of us are here for help, advice and assistance, not to be patronised. Dont be so egotistic.


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## Samsquantch (Mar 5, 2009)

canadiangeordie said:


> Had to get involved here. Mr. Allison, opinionated self-promoters like you are the very reason i stayed away from the instrument for several years. You appear to be putting forth your input for all the wrong reasons.
> 
> The guitar is about enjoyment, ambition, and aspiring to hopefully create something akin to what make you pick the axe up in the first place.
> the Tele is *not* the essential instrument to me or many others, nor will it ever be.
> ...


+1. Love to hear a clip of Ben's magical playing...


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## Jimi D (Oct 27, 2008)

canadiangeordie said:


> Had to get involved here. Mr. Allison, opinionated self-promoters like you are the very reason i stayed away from the instrument for several years. You appear to be putting forth your input for all the wrong reasons.
> 
> The guitar is about enjoyment, ambition, and aspiring to hopefully create something akin to what make you pick the axe up in the first place.
> the Tele is *not* the essential instrument to me or many others, nor will it ever be.
> ...


Being a tad defensive aren't we?

ftr, I largely agree with Ben - and being somewhat abrasive of temperament myself, I don't find offense in his admittedly direct delivery. But I absolutely concur with his initial post in which he quotes the old adage that it's a poor Carpenter that blames his tools. That's something my father drilled into me, and I personally believe that a large part of the gear market we know today is driven by people searching for a Holy Grail of "tone" that is likely completely unattainable through the acquisition of ever more expensive gear. As Ben (and others) mentioned in earlier posts, technique and ability are far more important than gear in defining your tone... And technique and ability can easily be improved at no cost by any guitar player who wants to do the dirty and get down and practice... not 'noodle' mind, but practice... Probably the most expensive bit of gear a beginner would need to buy to really improve their tone is a metronome. But then they have to _use_ it... 

People talk about "good tone" like its something fixed and consistent and I just don't get it. One of the things that amazes me about my own modest rig (essentially a AmDlx Ash Tele, a '80 SFDR, a Full-Drive 2 and a Budda Wah) is how different it can sound to me from day to day - hell, from hour to hour - depending on... ???? crap I dunno... phases of the moon? barometric pressure? the will of the Gods? take your pick... Last night, for ex., I came back from break and spent two minutes fiddling with my tone knobs to get the sound I wanted out of my amp again (hell, I only got 2 tone knobs!!) because somewhere between when I put my guitar on the stand and hit the standby switch to take a break and let our drummer replace a rototom skin he'd poked a hole in (hehehe) and the time we came back 40 minutes later my rig didn't sound the same it had for the first 10 songs we'd played... Nothing had changed... well, maybe the salad I wolfed down had affected my hearing, I dunno... regardless, my tone was fine first set, and I had to tweak it second set, and then it was fine again... must be the gear... maybe I need a new amp... more likely after thirty years of standing beside our exuberant drummer I need new ears... 

Now, in my own defense, I'm as much a gear-a-holic as anyone. I have a handful of guitars I hardly ever play (including a rather dusty Rickenbacker and EBMM Axis), a set of V-Drums I seldom touch (though my daughter spends a lot of time on them), a new Gretsch Power Jet I had to have just because it's so damned cool! and I recently bought a piano because I feel on some base level that every house should have a piano, but I can't play the piano, but I like to plunk away on it... Bottom line: I like gear, I like shopping for gear, I like owning gear - it's fun! It appeals to my "hunter/gatherer" instincts, but it doesn't have much to do with making music any more... So, I think we should all go out and buy whatever gear we want and can afford - that's great - we have fun, we play what we like, we enjoy whatever aspects of the hobby we care to (whether it be gear whoring or memorizing modes)... but I don't need anyone trying to tell me I have to "buy" good tone - beyond the basics, I really think that's crap... 

Oh, and imho, I think Ben's on the money: if you can't sound good playing a Tele through Blues Driver into a DR you're not likely to sound very good playing anything; whether it's your dream rig or not, if you've got the chops, it will suffice. Flat picker to shredder, this rig will give you what you need to kick butt, no question, no bull, no excuses... 

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go put a new battery in my metronome and break out my Petrucci "Rock Discipline" tape...


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

I LOVE Fender Strats and Teles, but I'd say they've got a feel to them that may be off-putting at first. Especially if you've become used to another style of guitar (acoustic, LP/SG etc). I understand what Ben was getting at, but the cheesy dismissiveness implicit in his statement has unsurprisingly ruffled some feathers. It's a little like saying, "if you play with metronomes and listen to John Petrucci, well my condolences........"

Shawn


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## Perkinsfan (Oct 17, 2007)

I don't know alot about the more expensive gear because I don't own any.
I have read a interview with Eddie Van Halen back in the day of his original "brown sound" craze when alot of people were trying to duplicate his tone.
He said that several times he had people ask him to play thru his rig after it was set up for a show.With the other person playing his equipment it sounded totally different even though it was EVH's rig.
Just my 2 cents.
Eric


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

Q. Do you need big $ to sound good?

A. No


Q. Do you need to practice to sound good?

A. Yes


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

so its decided then, isnt it?
cheap guitars can sound good, but if you can afford expensive ones, youll sound just as good, but look cooler doing it. 9kkhhd


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

fraser said:


> so its decided then, isnt it?
> cheap guitars can sound good, but if you can afford expensive ones, youll sound just as good, but look cooler doing it. 9kkhhd


In a nutshell, yes:smile:


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## Jimi D (Oct 27, 2008)

noobcake said:


> fraser said:
> 
> 
> > so its decided then, isnt it?
> ...


And no one in the audience is likely to notice either way. :rockon:


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Unless they are gear whores like some of us! (me included)


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

fraser said:


> so its decided then, isnt it?
> cheap guitars can sound good, but if you can afford expensive ones, youll sound just as good, but look cooler doing it. 9kkhhd


Exactly.

Truthfully though, you'll only look cooler to other guitarists who are so inclined.


The audience, that frequently overlooked group of people sitting in chairs watching and listening to the band will not notice or care whether you're playing a $10,000 rig or a $2000. one.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

*Sound*

COOL after 18 pages we finally got the question answered


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Jimi D said:


> Being a tad defensive aren't we?
> One of the things that amazes me about my own modest rig (essentially a AmDlx Ash Tele, a '80 SFDR, a Full-Drive 2 and a Budda Wah)
> 
> Last night, for ex., I came back from break and spent two minutes fiddling with my tone knobs to get the sound I wanted out of my amp again (hell, I only got 2 tone knobs!!) because somewhere between when I put my guitar on the stand and hit the standby switch to take a break and let our drummer replace a rototom skin he'd poked a hole in (hehehe) and the time we came back 40 minutes later my rig didn't sound the same it had for the first 10 songs we'd played... Nothing had changed...


Typical for a Deluxe. The band swore I turned up for the second set but really it got warm.


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## faracaster (Mar 9, 2006)

Yep.......all depends on the player. I have heard great players sound FANTASTIC with standard American Fender guitars through run of the mill everyday Fender amps. Nothing vintage or boutique just walk into L&M and sound great.


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## elindso (Aug 29, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Truthfully though, you'll only look cooler to other guitarists who are so inclined.
> 
> ...


They really care about whether your guitar is a relic or a REAL vintage (that they can get big bucks for) piece.

Truthfully sounding nice is as important as having fun.

Those folks out there can tell if you're having fun.


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

faracaster said:


> Yep.......all depends on the player. I have heard great players sound FANTASTIC with standard American Fender guitars through run of the mill everyday Fender amps. Nothing vintage or boutique just walk into L&M and sound great.


True that, best live tone I've ever heard was a smokin' local player running a Mexican Tele into a Peavey Classic 30 with a Boss SD-1. Very modest rig, but the tone was phenomenal.


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## Samsquantch (Mar 5, 2009)

noobcake said:


> True that, best live tone I've ever heard was a smokin' local player running a Mexican Tele into a Peavey Classic 30 with a Boss SD-1. Very modest rig, but the tone was phenomenal.


The stock SD-1 into a Classic 30 is a killer combo, especially when you turn the gain on the pedal down to almost nothing and crank the level up...


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Truthfully though, you'll only look cooler to other guitarists who are so inclined.
> .


Most guitar players have never heard of the boutique brands either :smile:

Currently, all of my electrics are boutique models and they really insprire me to play more...that's what it's really all about.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

Last time I saw Jeff Healey he was tearing it up on a few Boss pedals into a Deluxe Reverb. When we were chatting he said it was all stock Boss.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

iaresee said:


> Last time I saw Jeff Healey he was tearing it up on a few Boss pedals into a Deluxe Reverb. When we were chatting he said it was all stock Boss.


I hope you told him that it was impossible to get good tone out of that combo! :smile:

The first concert I ever attended in Canada was a Canada Day concert at Lansdowne Park in Ottawa, in 1989 or thereabouts. The one thing I remember from that day was being blown away by Jeff Healeys guitar tone - just _*stunning*_. I think it was his Strat, into Boss pedals, into a Marshall amp. :rockon2:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Scottone said:


> Most guitar players have never heard of the boutique brands either :smile:
> 
> Currently, all of my electrics are boutique models and they really insprire me to play more...that's what it's really all about.


In that case, you won't look cooler at all.


You may _feel_ cooler though and that can't be discounted.


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## Guest (Apr 27, 2009)

bagpipe said:


> I hope you told him that it was impossible to get good tone out of that combo! :smile:


It was cables he bought at Steve's. All driven by a franken-Strat with three, hot pink, 'buckers in it. And it roared and purred and grooved like nobody's business. He was playing with the Healey's house band, Virgil Scott was on vocals. Largely big band tunes with a little blues thrown in. Magical. 



> The first concert I ever attended in Canada was a Canada Day concert at Lansdowne Park in Ottawa, in 1989 or thereabouts. The one thing I remember from that day was being blown away by Jeff Healeys guitar tone - just _*stunning*_. I think it was his Strat, into Boss pedals, into a Marshall amp. :rockon2:


And no doubt it sounded like Jeff. It always sounded like Jeff. I always sound like me no matter what I'm playing through. Some things are easier to do on some pieces of gear (vibrato is easier on my PRS' vibe setup than on my Schecter's vibe setup), something are only possible on some pieces of gear (I can only pull up on my PRS, the Schecter setup sits flush to the body)...but none of it makes me sound more or less amazing.

I'll blow your mind playing any guitar gear. :rockon2:


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

bagpipe said:


> I hope you told him that it was impossible to get good tone out of that combo! :smile:
> 
> The first concert I ever attended in Canada was a Canada Day concert at Lansdowne Park in Ottawa, in 1989 or thereabouts. The one thing I remember from that day was being blown away by Jeff Healeys guitar tone - just _*stunning*_. I think it was his Strat, into Boss pedals, into a Marshall amp. :rockon2:


At that time, Healey was frequently playing guitars equipped with Evans pickups. ( http://www.synapticsystems.com/studios/evans/models.htm ) Colin James was using them too, and you can hear similarities between their tones. To my mind, they have a very characteristic sound, almost as if they come equipped with the TS mid-hump. They are designed very much like the G&L Z or fender Precision pickups with two coils RWRP, each handling half the strings. The two coils fit yin/yang fashion inside the cover. I had the pleasure of visiting their facility at that time and seeing how they were made.


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