# Gibson Month at L&M - did the math



## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Did the math for a ES339 at $47 biweekly, 26 payments per year, 3 years to pay... $3666. I don't think so.

http://www.long-mcquade.com/news/2244/


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Good for you, but nowhere does it say it's low or 0% interest. Typical for a merchant, like a credit card, is somewhere around 18%. I have a calculator and could work it backwards, I'm not saying it's 18%, but I can check it tomorrow if anyone's interested.

I wonder if the $47 includes taxes or factors in a down payment? Both of those would be important to figuring it all out.....though I suppose one could just call L&M and ask if they really needed to know.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

Robert1950 said:


> Did the math for a ES339 at $47 biweekly, 26 payments per year, 3 years to pay... $3666. I don't think so.
> 
> http://www.long-mcquade.com/news/2244/


yep...thats $900 for them in the 3yrs...worst part is...i can hear pawn stars in my head...


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

Typically Gibson or Fender or Yorkville month are correct % 0 but only if you finance for 6 months and the longer you finance the higher the interest gets. My memory has betrayed me before though.


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## Louis (Apr 26, 2008)

Robert1950 said:


> Did the math for a ES339 at $47 biweekly, 26 payments per year, 3 years to pay... $3666. I don't think so.
> 
> http://www.long-mcquade.com/news/2244/


Well you have the number of the beast in that number !...... lol


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Your tone..priceless 



Robert1950 said:


> Did the math for a ES339 at $47 biweekly, 26 payments per year, 3 years to pay... $3666. I don't think so.
> 
> http://www.long-mcquade.com/news/2244/


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## starjag (Jan 30, 2008)

They used to have the 12-month no interest program. Is that gone?


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## DrHook (Oct 28, 2013)

starjag said:


> They used to have the 12-month no interest program. Is that gone?


That's Yorkville month, Gibson, Line 6 etc....


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

starjag said:


> They used to have the 12-month no interest program. Is that gone?


In February they had a one day only 6 month no interest offer--so those things are for special sales, etc.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

It used to be that they would give you 0% over a year...but they also wanted a good chunk up front, perhaps 25% down. That's how it was when I did the Gibson month thing for my first Gib. After that I bought used all of the time. The one I bought new is still pretty much in new condition but I changed a lot on it.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

I was actually talking to someone in L&M the other day. what he explained to me was that on a 12 month term it's about 90$ per 1000 financed, over the year. on paper it is 18% interest, but you're only paying interest on how much you have left owing.

As far as i can tell the only thing special about Gibson Month aside from a couple minimal price breaks is that they extend the financing to a max of 36 months and give you a free t-shirt.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

mike_oxbig said:


> I was actually talking to someone in L&M the other day. what he explained to me was that on a 12 month term it's about 90$ per 1000 financed, over the year. on paper it is 18% interest, but you're only paying interest on how much you have left owing.
> 
> As far as i can tell the only thing special about Gibson Month aside from a couple minimal price breaks is that they extend *the financing to a max of 36 months and give you a free t-shirt*.


Yeah. Gives the impression of something special when it is not. My guess is that there is pressure from Gibson to promote it's product without offering much in return.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

mike_oxbig said:


> I was actually talking to someone in L&M the other day. what he explained to me was that on a 12 month term it's about 90$ per 1000 financed, over the year. on paper it is 18% interest, but you're only paying interest on how much you have left owing.
> 
> As far as i can tell the only thing special about Gibson Month aside from a couple minimal price breaks is that they extend the financing to a max of 36 months and give you a free t-shirt.


I have to agree with that. It certainly is different than it was when I 'participated'.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Robert1950 said:


> Did the math for a ES339 at $47 biweekly, 26 payments per year, 3 years to pay... $3666. I don't think so.
> 
> http://www.long-mcquade.com/news/2244/


OUCH...interest on top of at least 300% markup!! (or markup on top of G's absurd list prices)

AT $2450, an Epiphone Elitist arch top can be picked up for half that or less. 
Honestly, the best value in professional grade instruments hands down. 
I'll put my LP up against a custom shop G any day. It honestly blows me away every single time I pick it up.
Don't scoff, see for yourself...you will be surprised


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Scotty said:


> OUCH...interest on top of at least 300% markup!! (or markup on top of G's absurd list prices)


Huh? So you're saying that an ES339 is a $600 guitar? Get real...

I also don't understand the issue with L&M charging you to finance a guitar for 3 years.. do people really expect for them to float that debt to you for nothing? IF so... can I ask you folks for an interest free loan please? LOL


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

gtrguy said:


> Huh? So you're saying that an ES339 is a $600 guitar? Get real...
> LOL


No I just threw out a ridiculous number because that's what their prices are. Realistically though, by construction and finish, It should be a $1200-$1500 guitar. (List price) Think about it. I don't believe for a second that 90% of it isn't CNC made. Hand "assembled" maybe.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

gtrguy said:


> Huh? So you're saying that an ES339 is a $600 guitar? Get real...
> 
> I also don't understand the issue with L&M charging you to finance a guitar for 3 years.. do people really expect for them to float that debt to you for nothing? IF so... can I ask you folks for an interest free loan please? LOL


He may have miscalculated there. But the interest is $1216 over a three year period. I don't expect interest free, but that I don't want the guitar band enough to pay that much interest.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> But the interest is $1216 over a three year period. I don't expect interest free, but that I don't want the guitar band enough to pay that much interest.


Fair enough, I don't either... but there are some people for whom that is the only way they would be able to afford to get that guitar. I can't fault L&M in the least for that.

I'm also not certain that you're calculating the interest correctly. By my figuring (leaving taxes out for simplicity sake) 18% interest (the number mentioned elsewhere i nthis thread) on $2450 over 36 months on a descending balance with no downpayment would work out to just under $750 not $1216. Even including 12% tax to bring the total to $2744 after tax works out to about $825 in interest over 3 years.


I could certainly be incorrect however...


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

You are much better setting aside $200 per month and setting a timeline. Then shop with cash on the used market. There are so many guitars out there. I traded with a guy over a year ago who said he had 60 guitars (no low end crap either). People like that are everywhere...well, I figure that there are guys with hoards of 30 everywhere, 60 is a bit rare.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> You are much better setting aside $200 per month and setting a timeline. Then shop with cash on the used market. There are so many guitars out there. I traded with a guy over a year ago who said he had 60 guitars (no low end crap either). People like that are everywhere...well, I figure that there are guys with hoards of 30 everywhere, 60 is a bit rare.


This is the smart way to do it...


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Robert1950 said:


> Yeah. Gives the impression of something special when it is not. My guess is that there is pressure from Gibson to promote it's product without offering much in return.


 not special? are you kidding me? did you not see the words FREE T-SHIRT? dude! free t-shirt! what more could you possibly want from them? hell with you guys, i'm getting on the bus and going down to bloor and ossington right now, for my free t-shirt, comes with a guitar!


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> not special? Are you kidding me? Did you not see the words free t-shirt? Dude! Free t-shirt! What more could you possibly want from them? Hell with you guys, i'm getting on the bus and going down to bloor and ossington right now, for my free t-shirt, comes with a guitar!


lol .......


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

$47 biweekly, 26 payments per year, for three years = $3666. $2450 x .13 = $318.50.taxes. Interest could be $898 if tax is included in the monthly payment.



gtrguy said:


> Fair enough, I don't either... but there are some people for whom that is the only way they would be able to afford to get that guitar. I can't fault L&M in the least for that.
> 
> I'm also not certain that you're calculating the interest correctly. By my figuring (leaving taxes out for simplicity sake) 18% interest (the number mentioned elsewhere i nthis thread) on $2450 over 36 months on a descending balance with no downpayment would work out to just under $750 not $1216. Even including 12% tax to bring the total to $2744 after tax works out to about $825 in interest over 3 years.
> 
> ...


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## Stonehead (Nov 12, 2013)

One alternative would be to put the ego in check and not to buy into the hype around Gibson guitars. Gibby's are nice but man do they bend you over for them these days........ 

Truth be told I do own a gibson (ES339) but i don't play it much these days. I love my EC1000 deluxe better than any LP I've owned. I know that statement would be heresy to some but its just my opinion.....


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Scotty said:


> No I just threw out a ridiculous number because that's what their prices are. Realistically though, by construction and finish, It should be a $1200-$1500 guitar. (List price) Think about it.* I don't believe for a second that 90% of it isn't CNC made*. Hand "assembled" maybe.


You're off their a bit Scotty. I just spoke the the CEO and he told me 89.872%. However, they are working on getting it up over 90% so he can get a larger bonus since the profit margin will go up proportionately.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

Stonehead said:


> I know that statement would be heresy to some but its just my opinion.....



Not to me.
I've openly stated many times, I'd take an Ibanez over Gibson every time.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> You're off their a bit Scotty. I just spoke the the CEO and he told me 89.872%. However, they are working on getting it up over 90% so he can get a larger bonus since the profit margin will go up proportionately.


Lol...that does it!! Now the only GIBSON that I will ever purchase comes in a glass bottle.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> You're off *their* a bit Scotty.


That should be 'there'.

I'd let this go but you are the one always going on about other people's poor grammar and apostrophes & so on.


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## King Loudness (May 3, 2010)

I have actually been shopping for a Les Paul, and had been tempted to take advantage of the 0% interest deal to get ahold of a nice Historic. That is, until I saw that they weren't doing 0% interest this year.... PASS! I like the staff at my local L&M but I'll stick to buying/trading used instruments. It saves me so much money in the long run...

W.


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## ampjunkie (Jul 30, 2009)

1. Why buy a Gibson today when Ibanez and others make excellent alternatives that are better and cheaper?
2. Why consider L&M in the first place?
3. Did you hear the CEO of L&M this week dismiss Amazon.ca's advance into the music instrument business in Canada? He said something to the effect that people want to go into stores and try things out. Maybe he hasn't heard of the term "showrooming" ...


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

ampjunkie said:


> _*Why buy a Gibson today when Ibanez and others make excellent alternatives that are better and cheaper?*_


1: Because you think the name on the headstock is worth hundreds of dollars to you.

2: Or you believe guitar making is akin to rocket science and Gibson's claims of superior rocket builders is true.

3: Or perhaps you believe Gibson has marked all the best trees in the world's forest for the last 100 years and have had specialist wood cutters harvest those trees, stamped "Gibson" on them and sneak them out of the woods and onto ships headed for Gibson's warehouse and that wood is clearly superior to all the other trees that grew beside them with the same amount of sun and rain on them.

4: Maybe it's because you feel the management team deserve larger houses, more luxury cars and increased salaries and bonuses.

5: Maybe you like those "worn" guitars they sanded the paint off and have added hundreds of dollars to the price so you can tell noobies and other unsuspecting ones that you are a guitar wizz who has been on the road so many times you've lost count.


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## DrHook (Oct 28, 2013)

Brand knocking gets boring....and old very fast.

On the upside....thank you to the people that traded in a JCM800 4211 combo on their new Gibson, it was quickly snatched up at $700


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

DrHook said:


> Brand knocking gets boring....and old very fast.
> 
> On the upside....thank you to the people that traded in a JCM800 4211 combo on their new Gibson, it was quickly snatched up at $700


Brilliant 

Brand knocking only makes the knocker look bad themselves ... nuf said 

if'n you don't like guitars this is the wrong hang out 

p


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

DrHook said:


> Brand knocking gets boring....and old very fast.
> 
> On the upside....thank you to the people that traded in a JCM800 4211 combo on their new Gibson, it was quickly snatched up at $700





parkhead said:


> Brilliant
> 
> Brand knocking only makes the knocker look bad themselves ... nuf said
> 
> ...


Good stuff guys. There are all kinds of brands out there whose CEOs and so on do the same stuff and all sorts of wrongs all over the spectrum. As an aside, you should have seen when 'Gibson hater' told a new fellow (and everyone who viewed the thread) that this company (Asian builder) made Gibson guitars and wouldn't retract or admit error when he was called on it. I suppose it's difficult to break a fixation. 

Hook...nice pickup on that JCM 800.

- - - Updated - - -



King Loudness said:


> I have actually been shopping for a Les Paul, and had been tempted to take advantage of the 0% interest deal to get ahold of a nice Historic. That is, until I saw that they weren't doing 0% interest this year.... PASS! I like the staff at my local L&M but I'll stick to buying/trading used instruments. It saves me so much money in the long run...
> 
> W.


I had heard that they gave up on fret nibs too...I haven't seen any 2014 models yet to verify but I am curious to see it for myself and wonder if it is true whether they are extending this to historics as well.


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## ampjunkie (Jul 30, 2009)

parkhead said:


> Brilliant
> 
> Brand knocking only makes the knocker look bad themselves ... nuf said
> 
> ...


I think you can definitely be a guitar lover while at the same time educate people about what some brands do to increase their market without really adding value. These are of course opinions, but isn't that what a forum is about? 

Many guitarists who are new to this industry, or even people who've been at it a while don't know what's going on with the big brands. Gibson has changed quite a bit since they hired their Harvard-MBA CEO Juszkiewicz. It's definitely run by businessmen -- less by musicians. They tried in the past to sue PRS for their single-cut model (infringes their Les Paul shape), but this suit was thrown out. People weren't convinced that you were confusing a PRS with a Gibson! Gibson also got caught illegally importing rosewood into the US. 

In any case, if brand knocking is bad, then by symmetrical principle, brand flattery is also bad. But isn't that what everybody does on this forum -- brag about their new guitar and how awesome it is? I see no difference in doing the same for a brand that sucks as well. Equally educational ...

So to counterbalance the knocking of Gibson, people should look at these brands -- run by luthiers and musicians who make excellent guitars at comparable prices as Gibson -- and IMHO, much better:

* Suhr
* Grosh
* Tom Anderson


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

smorgdonkey said:


> <snip> I had heard that they gave up on fret nibs too...I haven't seen any 2014 models yet to verify but I am curious to see it for myself and wonder if it is true whether they are extending this to historics as well.


Fret nibs are gone from 2014 regular-production models. They are still on the 2014 historics and other Custom Shop output, so far.

A large "120th Anniversary" inlay is installed on the regular-production models as compensation for the loss of nibs. Special and rare, the announcement following suggests:

http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/News/en-us/Gibson-120th-Anniversary-Inlay.aspx


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Thanks for that info boyscout. IMO this will only help counterfeiters.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

ampjunkie said:


> _*Many guitarists who are new to this industry, or even people who've been at it a while don't know what's going on with the big brands. Gibson has changed quite a bit since they hired their Harvard-MBA CEO Juszkiewicz. It's definitely run by businessmen -- less by musicians. *_


Some may think my posts about Gibson, Fender and PRS are brand knocking. I don't knock the brand because they all make excellent guitars, especially, IMO, PRS. What I do knock are the prices they sell them at and the lies they tell to make them seem like they are so much better than some guitars that cost a lot less (and many of these offering more). 

And I'll say it again, as you alluded to, Ampjunkie, that these companies are not there to make guitars, they just use that medium to make money.

I have to laugh at the dislikes some of my posts get because some can't face the truth of this.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> they all make excellent guitars, especially, IMO, PRS.


Show pics of your PRS guitars please. I bet you haven't played one for longer than 10 minutes.


Steadfastly said:


> And I'll say it again, as you alluded to, Ampjunkie, that these companies are not there to make guitars, they just use that medium to make money.


Every guitar company is in it to make money. If not, which ones are funded by the owners' pockets and just break even each year?


Steadfastly said:


> I have to laugh at the dislikes some of my posts get because some can't face the truth of this.


We just laugh at your posts because we know that you don't know what you are talking about.

Going to dislike your post now.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Myself, I am not trying to knock any brands... I'm only knocking the prices they command for them against what their true value really is. What I'd like to have a really sweet Gibson copy? Absolutely. At a price 3 to 4 times more than what the instrument is truly worth? Never in a million. Not when I can buy three or four used instruments of as good or better quality for the same money. 

Gibson listen up... Give us consistent quality and reasonable pricing and a lot more of us will buy your stuff. Bring back the Epiphone Elitist. Change the headstock to an open book and market it better... You should have a winner there.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Scotty said:


> Myself, I am not trying to knock any brands... I'm only knocking the prices they command for them against what their true value really is. What I'd like to have a really sweet Gibson copy? Absolutely. At a price 3 to 4 times more than what the instrument is truly worth? Never in a million. Not when I can buy three or four used instruments of as good or better quality for the same money.
> 
> Gibson listen up... Give us consistent quality and reasonable pricing and a lot more of us will buy your stuff. Bring back the Epiphone Elitist. Change the headstock to an open book and market it better... You should have a winner there.


We eventually come to feeding a North American or feeding an Asian.....you decide. I'd buy a Gibson because they designed it first ( that is a lie... I'd build it first .. but I can) I don't need one but I still think that the 339 is a hit.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

DrHook said:


> Brand knocking gets boring....and old very fast.


^ this. I'm yawning so much I'm drooling all over my Gibson.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

shoretyus said:


> We eventually come to feeding a North American or feeding an Asian.....


If you're going to go down that road I hope you buy all of your underwear at American Apparel.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

it's something i have given alot of thought to. it really bothers me, the branding and the overly priced offerings. not just gibson, all the ones who do it. i really like their guitars, largely because i don't think any of the big names make humbucker pickups as good as gibson does. ever. in my mind the 57 classic is the sweetest pick up ever invented. i like burstbucker 1&2 alot also. i like the paint jobs too. the bursts and the color choices appeal to me. but all the wood parts of the guitar i don't think are any better than most of what's out there. so i end being frustrated because i'd love to own some of them, but the price puts them out of my league. sure i could save up and buy a sweet ass 335 with quilty maple and creme binding and nice block inlays and locking tuners. but i couldn't live with myself if i did that. to have a $3000 toy in my living room, that is for me, and me alone? i can't help thinking how hard my wife works, and all the b.s. she puts up with, and she don't have no $3000 toy thats just for her. i can't have one for me until she has something like that for her. i just can't bring myself to do it. besides, i need more teeth. if i lose one more i won't be able to stay fat. i do have an ngd coming though. and it's probably going to be a les paul. but an entry level one, probably a 2014 studio pro. i thought long and hard about this. i nearly ordered a custom agile. what stopped me was resale value. if i choke on a slice pf pizza and my wife needs to sell my crap, that custom agile that would cost me $1250 incl taxes and shipping would have a resale value of about $300. even in pristine condish. 
but the studio pro, even though it will take a hard hit as well, it won't be as bad as the agile. and besides, i really want that 12th fret inlay. lastly,i have a connection that can get me a really sweet discount. what i will pay, will be somewhat closer to realistic money than what john q. public will pay. i can only get it once, so i figure i'm gonna make the most of it. call me a hypocrite if you want. it's not my first, i had clowny standard a long (eons) time ago. and a black studio (briefly) and i had a white vee that i returned after a couple days when i found a hairline crack in the neck. all were bought used, at a time when the branding wasn't as much of a thing. still alot of money, and i hate that, but you either pay the admission price or you don't.


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## Stonehead (Nov 12, 2013)

cheezyridr said:


> in my mind the 57 classic is the sweetest pick up ever invented.


+1 These are fantastic pickups!


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

"My (insert brand name) plays better than any Gibson out there....."

That is the statement, repeated constantly ad infinitum, that says it all. You only target the best.......................



PS: just traded my Testa Rossa off on a Fiero kitcar with similar body panels. The cars are vastly different underneath, as it turns out. Who'da thunk?


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I own a few Gibsons.
But TBH, for me any guitar in the $1000 price point AND up, feels/sounds about the same to me. I honestly don't value a $5k R9 more than my $1500 trad faded, aside from sex appeal. Its just not tangible in my case.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Diablo said:


> I own a few Gibsons.
> But TBH, for me any guitar in the $1000 price point AND up, feels/sounds about the same to me. I honestly don't value a $5k R9 more than my $1500 trad faded, aside from sex appeal. Its just not tangible in my case.


There are likely a few exceptions as there always are but your $1000.00 price point has got to be pretty close.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

ampjunkie said:


> or even people who've been at it a while don't know what's going on with the big brands. Gibson has changed quite a bit since they hired their Harvard-MBA CEO Juszkiewicz


Yes, people sometimes don't know. He wasn't hired- he and two partners bought Gibson outright in 1986. It was a dying company at that point. Whether or not the complete turnaround was thanks to them or just luck and good timing (GnR Appetite for Destruction) is debatable. I think they have made some serious mis-steps in the last few years. As far as their pricing- it's obviously working for them or it wouldn't continue.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

gtrguy said:


> Yes, people sometimes don't know. He wasn't hired- he and two partners bought Gibson outright in 1986. It was a dying company at that point. Whether or not the complete turnaround was thanks to them or just luck and good timing (GnR Appetite for Destruction) is debatable. I think they have made some serious mis-steps in the last few years. As far as their pricing- it's obviously working for them or it wouldn't continue.


I think it was good luck and good timing.
And I think their successes far exceed their follies. Every company has some duds along the way if theyre trying new things.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Diablo said:


> I think it was good luck and good timing.
> And I think their successes far exceed their follies. Every company has some duds along the way if theyre trying new things.


I agree and while there are some definite duds (IMHO) I do applauded them for trying to do new things.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

today i went to the 12th fret to do a little recon work. i played a lp classic (black flame) it was nice, but needed a a set of strings and a good cleaning. the neck was sticky, the strings were coarse from oxidation. the action was nice, and it was lighter than i expected it to be. but at the end of the day, it wasn't what i want to spend $1500 +tax on. if it was red or honeyburst i may have given it more consideration. i'm just not big on black guitars. so that leaves the studio pro in cherry burst (it's not a clownie if the plastic is black, i say)

i also played heritage lp today. it played really well, and sounded awesome. it looked as if it was really nice once. it was a player - but the previous owner must have been a body builder. it weighed about 47 lbs. this thing could anchor the QE2. if it wasn't so heavy i might have bought it, because even though it looks a little used, i really liked the way it sounded and played. also, strings were oxidized and crusty. it's a shame it's so heavy. i keep wanting to talk myself into it, but i know better.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> i also played heritage lp today. it played really well, and sounded awesome. it looked as if it was really nice once. it was a player - but the previous owner must have been a body builder. it weighed about 47 lbs. this thing could anchor the QE2.


Yes, but the sustain.......................................................................................................................................................


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Scotty said:


> OUCH...interest on top of at least 300% markup!! (or markup on top of G's absurd list prices)
> 
> AT $2450, an Epiphone Elitist arch top can be picked up for half that or less.
> Honestly, the best value in professional grade instruments hands down.
> ...


If you love your Epiphone then knock yourself out. If plywood and veneer is your thing, then I'm not going to argue with that. As for me, I prefer a solid flamed maple cap over a flamed maple veneer, and I'll pay more for it... and it's awesome that options exist for both buyers!

I don't get all the Gibson hate on this... a guitar forum. There is like three threads going on right now with some form of Gibson hate going on.

People like them, and people buy them at all sorts of price points. Frankly, a Les Paul Traditional that can often be had for $1800 new is a heck of a buy and way outclasses the best Epiphone Les Paul.

If Gibson can build and sell a custom shop guitar to a willing market for $5k, then that is good business.

If L&M can finance the purchase of a willing buyer and make a profit, then that is good business.

Smart business is getting the max dollar that a market will burden for your product. Foolish business gives their products away at low cost and struggles along. Business deserve to make a dollar.

Are we a culture of guitar lover's or guitar hater's? No point in hanging around if it's the latter.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

cheezyridr said:


> it's something i have given alot of thought to. it really bothers me, the branding and the overly priced offerings. not just gibson, all the ones who do it. i really like their guitars, largely because i don't think any of the big names make humbucker pickups as good as gibson does.


A USA made Gibson SGJ is $549.00. That is great value for the money if you ask me and definitely not overpriced.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

dradlin said:


> If Gibson can build and sell a custom shop guitar to a willing market for *$5k, then that is good business.*
> 
> If L&M can finance the purchase of a willing buyer and make a profit, *then that is good business.*
> 
> ...


If you read the threads I don't see how you even think these are guitar haters. We wouldn't be here if we didn't have a love for guitars. 

It's not the guitars, be it Gibson, Fender, PRS or other companies selling high priced guitars but the greed behind it.

Yes, companies deserve to make a profit. That's how we put bread on the table for our families but that is greed, pure and simple, not just making a dollar. If you don't think so, ask yourself how much top level management makes. That's greed.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> If you read the threads I don't see how you even think these are guitar haters. We wouldn't be here if we didn't have a love for guitars.
> 
> It's not the guitars, be it Gibson, Fender, PRS or other companies selling high priced guitars but the greed behind it.
> 
> Yes, companies deserve to make a profit. That's how we put bread on the table for our families but that is greed, pure and simple, not just making a dollar. If you don't think so, ask yourself how much top level management makes. That's greed.


Fender and Gibson have been teetering on the edge if existence for years. They are not "greedy"... they are fighting to stay in the game. You are grossly mistaken about their "greed".


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> If you read the threads I don't see how you even think these are guitar haters. We wouldn't be here if we didn't have a love for guitars.


Quoting from another thread relating to the bourbon burst Les Paul... "Looks like crap."

Funny way to express love.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Not unlike the poor folks the buys them. I bet if there was a good economy a lot more people would buy gibson just because of the name. I would. But it would be a luxury item for me at this point. 

The whole market has changed. Never has it been easier to aquire, assemble or purchase something that doesn't have their logo's on it. 


dradlin said:


> Fender and Gibson have been teetering on the edge if existence for years. They are not "greedy"... they are fighting to stay in the game. You are grossly mistaken about their "greed".


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## Option1 (May 26, 2012)

dradlin said:


> ...
> 
> Are we a culture of guitar lover's or guitar hater's? No point in hanging around if it's the latter.


I'm sorry, but I don't get this "how dare you criticise what I believe to be the greatest guitars ever made." approach. They're guitars, they're a brand, some a good, some are great, some are rubbish. We're entitled to our opinions just as much as you are. They're just peoples' opinions; they're not taking a dump in your corn flakes.

Neil


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

dradlin said:


> Fender and Gibson have been teetering on the edge if existence for years. They are not "greedy"... they are fighting to stay in the game. You are grossly mistaken about their "greed".


I they are truly fighting to stay alive, perhaps the top management should relinquish some of their exorbitant salaries and put it into their company. If that would happen, I would backtrack my comments about the greed in the companies.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> I they are truly fighting to stay alive, perhaps the top management should relinquish some of their exorbitant salaries and put it into their company. If that would happen, I would backtrack my comments about the greed in the companies.


I saw a prank pulled on Paul of PRS - someone added an "A" to his parking spot.

The SUV in the spot was a Toyota.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> I they are truly fighting to stay alive, perhaps the top management should relinquish some of their exorbitant salaries and put it into their company. If that would happen, I would backtrack my comments about the greed in the companies.


You have no clue about the salary amount paid to Henry Juszkiewicz, his situation, or motivations.

Furthermore, Henry Juszkiewicz is a guitar player and his affinity for the instrument led him along with a group of investors to privately purchase Gibson from Norlin and turn the company around. He may not be liked by some (that don't even know the man), but he seems to be leading the company in a positive business direction.

Reward is commensurate with risk. If a guy like Henry Juszkiewicz owns a business and assumes the risk that comes along with that, he deserves all that the company can muster to pay him.

Find some Wall Street banker to direct your hate towards.


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## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

It's easy to knock on Gibson's prices if you don't time your purchase or look in the right places. L&M will give you plenty of chances througout the year to get one at a lower price than their regular prices. I walked into the Bloor L&M and picked up a Gibson LP STD for $1599 - brand new, with hard case. It was during the Attic sale, and I wasn't one of the early birds. The guitar just sat there with a giant sign next to it and nobody bothered to give it a look. The February inventory sale also featured some decent deals. If you talk to the sales people, they'll try and give you a deal. I heard guys left and right negotiating prices on Gibsons. Heck, the sales people were even encouraging me to give an offer!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

dradlin said:


> *If a guy like Henry Juszkiewicz owns a business and assumes the risk that comes along with that, he deserves all that the company can muster to pay him.*
> 
> Find some Wall Street banker to direct your hate towards.


I thought you would likely come back with that standard argument. I disagree and you are entitled to your opinion. 

As for hating people like him, I don't hate the person, I just have no use for those standards, bankers and some in companies I have worked for included.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> I thought you would likely come back with that standard argument...


It's a standard argument because it is true.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

High/Deaf said:


> "My (insert brand name) plays better than any Gibson out there....."
> 
> That is the statement, repeated constantly ad infinitum, that says it all. You only target the best.......................


Correction; You target what the *majority feel* is the best.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> Yes, but the sustain.......................................................................................................................................................


I prefer; Yes, but the sustain...........can be had by non-Gibsons for well under the cost.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

shoretyus said:


> We eventually come to feeding a North American or feeding an Asian.....you decide. I'd buy a Gibson because they designed it first ( that is a lie... I'd build it first .. but I can) I don't need one but I still think that the 339 is a hit.


Feeding _*CANADIAN *_:smile-new:would make me think differently. If Godin had a seriously sexy LP line, I'd be all over it. 

As for offshore, I don't begrudge those people for feeding their families. North American owned companies are making a tidy profit outsourcing, don't kid yourself. As for wealth shifting overseas, we cannot stop it. It's been the cycle of mankind. North Americans greed for buying as much cheap crap from Wal-mart, costco and dollar stores and turning into a "buy, use briefly, throw away and repeat" society is what has accelerated the cycle.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

dradlin said:


> If you love your Epiphone then knock yourself out. If plywood and veneer is your thing, then I'm not going to argue with that. As for me, I prefer a solid flamed maple cap over a flamed maple veneer, and I'll pay more for it... and it's awesome that options exist for both buyers! Frankly, a Les Paul Traditional that can often be had for $1800 new is a heck of a buy and way outclasses the best Epiphone Les Paul.
> 
> If Gibson can build and sell a custom shop guitar to a willing market for $5k, then that is good business.


Read my post again a little more closely. Not being smart, but do your research...Google Epiphone *Elite or Elitist. *They are a discontinued line, but are available all the time if you watch for them. Solid top, no veneer, US made pickups. Japanese made and exquisitely so. It's a must play instrument. Can be had for $600-900 range, with a sought after resale crowd. Ads are gone from kijiji in a matter of weeks. I'm so impressed, will never buy new US made again.

Since becoming a Japanese made convert, I have to say that I have never seen such beautiful finishes on any LP's than the vintage Japanese made guitars such as Greco, Tokai, Burny etc...Gibson can't top that at 5K. They are truly astounding


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Scotty said:


> Read my post again a little more closely. Not being smart, but do your research...Google Epiphone *Elite or Elitist. *They are a discontinued line, but are available all the time if you watch for them. Solid top, no veneer, US made pickups. Japanese made and exquisitely so. It's a must play instrument. Can be had for $600-900 range, with a sought after resale crowd. Ads are gone from kijiji in a matter of weeks. I'm so impressed, will never buy new US made again.
> 
> Since becoming a Japanese made convert, I have to say that I have never seen such beautiful finishes on any LP's than the vintage Japanese made guitars such as Greco, Tokai, Burny etc...Gibson can't top that at 5K. They are truly astounding


I agree that some very high quality guitars have come out of Japan over the years.

Used MIJ Fenders are as valued as used MIA Fenders.

I've got a Japanese made '79 Ibanez Artist Model 2630 in my possession that is a very fine instrument. They sold for prices nearly on par with a Gibson 335.

I've owned a couple of Japanese made Charvel's that were very well built guitars.

However, the Epiphone Elite and Elitist are not representative of the majority of the Epiphone produce line and quality. It is my understanding, and maybe it's wrong, that the Elite and Elitist models sell new for similar prices at which many Gibsons sell.

Also, $5000 is not the entry point for a Gibson. $1800 for a new Les Paul Traditional is a good value, and many more offerings are available for less.

Consider the Ford Motor Company for a moment, the have the standard Ford brand and the luxury Lincoln brand. The standard and luxury brands are built on the same platform with only cosmetic upgrades being the fundamental difference. People still pay more for the luxury Lincoln brand even though it is effectively the same car from a manufactured cost perspective. Do I fault Ford? No, that is good business!

Clearly Gibson has been able to establish and maintain themselves as a luxury brand and command higher costs for their product as a result. They offer Epiphone as their value brand for those who choose to go that route. That is good business. To hate them for charging $5000 for a custom shop Les Paul (while there is a market demand) is just punitive. 

If you prefer any other brand than Gibson for whatever reason then fine, exercise your purchase choice and play on. But to tear down Gibson for supplying a market demand is not justified.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Scotty said:


> OUCH...interest on top of at least 300% markup!! (or markup on top of G's absurd list prices)
> 
> AT $2450, an Epiphone Elitist arch top can be picked up for half that or less.
> Honestly, the best value in professional grade instruments hands down.
> ...


........and you are in that majority.

Unless you were referring to a Custom Shop Guild? Or Gretsch? 

When people start comparing every LP-like guitar out there to the Elitist or a Japanese 'lawsuit' guitar (instead of the other way around), it is what it is. And I am in no way denigrating those other products - I own a very nice Japanese LP that I take out as much or more than my Custom. There is lots of very good product out there and I am not even saying one is necessarily better than the other just because of its brand name. But there is a reason we say "handles as good as a Ferrari" or "plays/sounds better than a Gibson".


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Scotty said:


> Epiphone *Elite or Elitist. *They are a discontinued line, but are available all the time if you watch for them. Solid top, no veneer, US made pickups. Japanese made and exquisitely so. It's a must play instrument. Can be had for $600-900 range,


I have bought a bunch of USA Gibson LP Studios in that price range...none of the worn or faded models either. If the Elitist has the binding but no nibs, fancy finish but that ugly Epi headstock, I'd rather the USA Studio. Personal preference. They do have their legion of fans though and I understand that.



Scotty said:


> Since becoming a Japanese made convert, I have to say that I have never seen such beautiful finishes on any LP's than the vintage Japanese made guitars such as Greco, Tokai, Burny etc...Gibson can't top that at 5K. They are truly astounding


I have been a 'Japanese made convert' since 1987 when Japanese manufacturing rose to the top of quality control. Honda makes a superior quality machine than Harley but Harley still sells for more and pulls emotional responses from people aged 5 to 85. Gibson does somewhat the same thing. 

I bought all of my USA made guitars after having Japan made guitars. It doesn't diminish my respect for Japanese manufacturing or many of their products. One the same note though, I hear complaints about 'quality' all of the time but I have only seen one true finish flaw in a USA Gibson and never anything more than a finish flaw....all of the others were 'customer made' flaws - I have even owned 12 USA made Gibsons. Now, the headstock weakness? Definitely a design flaw...but don't drop it or knock it over and you'll be all right.

As for Greco, Burny and Tokai...I KNOW there are great examples out there but I do recall back in the '80s that a lot of those sat in corners and they were nothing special but now many of the fans of those guitars lose their shit when they hear about one..."WHAT? A 1082 Tokai in someone's attic?!! HOLY BAJEEZIZ!!!" I played a hoard of those. Now people are always jamming Gibson but I have played a hoard of Gibsons too and none of those '80s Japanese guitars I played were anything like any of the random USA Studios I picked up.

Once again...personal opinion but gained from experience. Also, that's not to say that there wasn't a special one now and then from back in the day. I know some of the modern production is completely different but you will pay through the nose for that too. Prices of them are through the roof and same with ESP - just fill out the online order form and see what it totals. YIKES!


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## DrHook (Oct 28, 2013)

Another vote for MIJ or CIJ instruments. I would definitely take a CIJ over a MIM any day because the quality is there and I'm guaranteed not to need bandaids from the fret ends  As far as CIJ vs USA...it's close...very close.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

smorgdonkey said:


> I have bought a bunch of USA Gibson LP Studios in that price range...none of the worn or faded models either. If the Elitist has the binding but no nibs, fancy finish but that ugly Epi headstock, I'd rather the USA Studio. Personal preference. They do have their legion of fans though and I understand that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree. A lot of hype around the 80's Japanese knockoffs just because they're old. There where often good reasons why few ppl wanted them in those days.


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## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

Diablo said:


> I agree. A lot of hype around the 80's Japanese knockoffs just because they're old. There where often good reasons why few ppl wanted them in those days.


Actually, I find the 80's MIJ stuff to be quite good. What about prejudice? I wasn't around at that time, but wasn't there the stereotype that import guitars were just crap, even if they weren't? It's the only thing I can think of, seeing as to how the 80's MIJ stuff was far superior than some USA stuff in that period (CBS Fender... yuck). I'm going to offer the flip side of your statement: There are often good reasons as to why there is hype for 80's MIJ guitars. 

Think Vantage, Westone, Burny, Greco, Tokai, Aria, and quite possibly the holy grail of 80's MIJ guitars, Daion. 

Don't get me wrong. I own 2 Gibsons and they're awesome. I think MIJ guitars deserve respect though.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Scotty said:


> Read my post again a little more closely. Not being smart, but do your research...Google Epiphone *Elite or Elitist. *They are a discontinued line, but are available all the time if you watch for them. Solid top, no veneer, US made pickups. Japanese made and exquisitely so. It's a must play instrument. Can be had for $600-900 range, with a sought after resale crowd. Ads are gone from kijiji in a matter of weeks. I'm so impressed, will never buy new US made again.
> 
> Since becoming a Japanese made convert, I have to say that I have never seen such beautiful finishes on any LP's than the vintage Japanese made guitars such as Greco, Tokai, Burny etc...Gibson can't top that at 5K. They are truly astounding


I hear they also make very good cars that the North Americans are now trying to emulate. I wonder what is more difficult to make; an automobile (thousands of parts) or a guitar (a couple dozen parts)?


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> I hear they also make very good cars that the North Americans are now trying to emulate. I wonder what is more difficult to make; an automobile (thousands of parts) or a guitar (a couple dozen parts)?


The Americans are second at both and have been for decades (IMHO of course)


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Scotty said:


> The Americans are second at both and have been for decades (IMHO of course)


With the cars for sure. Even the Koreans are beating the North Americans with some of their cars. As for guitars, I don't know enough about all the Japanese models to have an opinion but I will take your word for it.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> I don't know enough about all the Japanese models to have an opinion


That's never stopped you before.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

dmc69 said:


> Actually, I find the 80's MIJ stuff to be quite good. What about prejudice? I wasn't around at that time, but wasn't there the stereotype that import guitars were just crap, even if they weren't? It's the only thing I can think of,


When I was playing all of those guitars, I didn't know nor care where any of them were made. I didn't know Gibsons were all made in USA...I didn't look for a 'made in' label ever.




vadsy said:


> That's never stopped you before.


I was going to say that!! In fact, MOST of the time I just verbally respond to his posts...so when you see me responding negatively to him on here, that's only about 10% of the actual responses. Most are verbal and short.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

I have a made in Mexico Fender Stratocaster, a made in China Ibanez AS-73, a made in Canada/US Godin LG, a made in USA Gibson SGJ, and a made in Japan Morris acoustic. They are all good guitars, a couple of them are great guitars but I don't really see any difference in them because of where they are made. The prettiest and nicest to play of the bunch is the made in China Ibanez. You'd have a very hard time prying that away from me. As far as Gibson competing check out the SGJ's and LPJ's. They can be had on sale for $499.99. Best value on the market today. Even at full list they are a good buy.


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## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

smorgdonkey said:


> I didn't know Gibsons were all made in USA...


_Almost_ all Gibsons are USA. The Gibson Songmaker was made in... Canada!


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

I rented an SG, glad I didn't buy it - the neck dive is atrocious. Disclaimer, I have to try it with a different strap. Sure sound MEAN though, amazing bark that a LP doesn't have, tho the SG doesn't have the thump.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> With the cars for sure. Even the Koreans are beating the North Americans with some of their cars. As for guitars, I don't know enough about all the Japanese models to have an opinion but I will take your word for it.


Just to think it all started with a lowly Honda or Toyota. Now look. And Hyundai? From junk to approaching Toyota quality. Kia is another to watch. I wish Canada would enter the market. We make enough parts for everyone else...why not our own? Oh yeah...we're puppets to the south


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

keto said:


> I rented an SG, glad I didn't buy it - the neck dive is atrocious. Disclaimer, I have to try it with a different strap. Sure sound MEAN though, amazing bark that a LP doesn't have, tho the SG doesn't have the thump.


I have read comments from SG owners similar to yours above and some comments that there is no neck dive on the ones they own. The ones that don't must have a very thin neck with a heavier than average body.

In addition to a different strap you can add some weight to the strap at the rear strap button. I've seen an item for sale that you can attach to your strap in this area with weights in it. I guess that would work if you weren't standing with it for long periods.

- - - Updated - - -



Scotty said:


> Just to think it all started with a lowly Honda or Toyota. Now look. And Hyundai? From junk to approaching Toyota quality. Kia is another to watch. I wish Canada would enter the market. We make enough parts for everyone else...why not our own? Oh yeah...we're puppets to the south


We just don't have the population base to be much of a player is one of the problems isn't it?


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

dmc69 said:


> _Almost_ all Gibsons are USA. The Gibson Songmaker was made in... Canada!


I am completely unaware of that model.

I would guess it was made at the old Garrison facility if I were on Jeopardy or something...Gibson trivia for $200 Alex...uh...what is the old Garrison facility?


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Scotty said:


> Just to think it all started with a lowly Honda or Toyota. Now look. And Hyundai? From junk to approaching Toyota quality. Kia is another to watch. I wish Canada would enter the market. We make enough parts for everyone else...why not our own? Oh yeah...we're puppets to the south


you sound like a whiner junkie blaming the dope man for his habit. don't forget it's your citizens that refuse to demand accountability from their own government. if you don't like america treatin you like a bitch, then stop bein a bitch. if you guys have any other problems you can't figure out, lemme know. i'm here all week.
:stirpot:


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

cheezyridr said:


> you sound like a whiner junkie blaming the dope man for his habit. don't forget it's your citizens that refuse to demand accountability from their own government. if you don't like america treatin you like a bitch, then stop bein a bitch. if you guys have any other problems you can't figure out, lemme know. i'm here all week.
> :stirpot:


Yeah, that's stirring it up...not biting though because I am one who _actually writes_ my MP. I encourage more of that from others. 

I'm not US bashing, I'll let Rick Mercer take that role; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFgPX0hnNfA


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> We just don't have the population base to be much of a player is one of the problems isn't it?



I don't know enough about economics to answer that...I'd like to know that myself
If Sweden can build cars, and very fine ones, what is stopping Canada? Sweden has a population of about 10 million.
We have enough technology and a large enough manufacturing base to do it. Every single part of a vehicle be it small up to the largest off road truck are manufactured in Southern Ont.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

dmc69 said:


> Actually, I find the 80's MIJ stuff to be quite good. What about prejudice? I wasn't around at that time, but wasn't there the stereotype that import guitars were just crap, even if they weren't? It's the only thing I can think of, seeing as to how the 80's MIJ stuff was far superior than some USA stuff in that period (CBS Fender... yuck). I'm going to offer the flip side of your statement: There are often good reasons as to why there is hype for 80's MIJ guitars.
> 
> Think Vantage, Westone, Burny, Greco, Tokai, Aria, and quite possibly the holy grail of 80's MIJ guitars, Daion.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I own 2 Gibsons and they're awesome. I think MIJ guitars deserve respect though.


My best friend bought an Aria V in the mid '80's. Bottom of the barrel components. It cost him less than $300 BNIB then because that's all it was worth, while still leaving profit margin for the retailer and of course import costs. I wouldn't give him $200 for it today.

I guess in 25 yrs jay tursers will be revered for being over looked as well, because of all that great wood from the 2000's.

are all 80's MIJ junk? No. There were some great ones from Ibanez for example. But a lot of the ones I played from the labels you mentioned above, were between unremarkable and junk, and just feeding off the associative hype from the few that were worth noting in that era/ category. No better than a current mid grade Epiphone, and in many cases much worse. 
Now if affordability is a big concern, then I can understand their appeal. But paying a premium for them, is for me, personally absurd.

Not to mention the stigma that will always taint them for some of us ie. even if a fake rolex was really well made, I wouldn't want it.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

i dunno - truth is often stranger than fiction. The way things are going, certain tonewoods may no longer be affordable for use in guitars - they'll either be protected species or the market for them will have collapsed altogether thanks to insane pricing and the ravages of extreme weather. Who knows what kinds of wood they'll be using in two or three decades - might make _anything_ made today look rather attractive. We might even be getting away from wood altogether in favour of composite materials - although I kind of doubt this because the guitar market is essentially quite conservative and while there are nice composite guitars out there they are very much a niche market thing. We'll probably see different tonewoods coming on stream to replace the classic stuff that's become fragile and protected thanks to aggressive over-harvesting to feed the market.

But back to Japanese guitars. Your friend's mid-80s guitar missed the boat - the sweet spot for those cheap but very nicely built Japanese guitars was the late 70s and early 80s. By the mid to late 80s a lot of Asian guitar production was shifting to Korea, leaving Japan for the upmarket stuff. Back then I don't think the Koreans were all that great with this stuff. Since then they've come a long way. 

A guitar is, after all, a pretty simple thing to build. The devil is in the details, sure - but it's not as if North America has a lock on making the world's greatest guitars. I certainly don't believe that hype, anyway.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Maxer said:


> i dunno - truth is often stranger than fiction. The way things are going, certain tonewoods may no longer be affordable for use in guitars - they'll either be protected species or the market for them will have collapsed altogether thanks to insane pricing and the ravages of extreme weather. Who knows what kinds of wood they'll be using in two or three decades - might make _anything_ made today look rather attractive. We might even be getting away from wood altogether in favour of composite materials - although I kind of doubt this because the guitar market is essentially quite conservative and while there are nice composite guitars out there they are very much a niche market thing. We'll probably see different tonewoods coming on stream to replace the classic stuff that's become fragile and protected thanks to aggressive over-harvesting to feed the market.
> 
> But back to Japanese guitars. Your friend's mid-80s guitar missed the boat - the sweet spot for those cheap but very nicely built Japanese guitars was the late 70s and early 80s. By the mid to late 80s a lot of Asian guitar production was shifting to Korea, leaving Japan for the upmarket stuff. Back then I don't think the Koreans were all that great with this stuff. Since then they've come a long way.
> 
> A guitar is, after all, a pretty simple thing to build. The devil is in the details, sure - but it's not as if North America has a lock on making the world's greatest guitars. I certainly don't believe that hype, anyway.


I'd agree with that. ESP the last paragraph. I do own some import guitars as well. It's mostly the valuation of some of the older imports that I have a hard time with. I think a lot of the value in them is attributed to some mythical best kept secret mojo thing that I just haven't experienced. I personally wouldn't pay a dime more than a current similar Epi for one, and in most cases, a whole lot less. The same way North Americans don't have a lock on building g good guitars, I don't bUy it that 70-80's Asian factories did either.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Sure. But I would also extend that scepticism and suggest that the big-name American companies also rely on a carefully-cultivated mythology to sell their products. It's a lot of smoke and mirrors. People like to think they've bought into some kind of holy grail of musicianship - it's an ego and status thing as much as it is an appreciation for nice finishes, iconic apperances, blingy materials, etc. The basic guts of a guitar have changed very little over the decades but the marketing would suggest that these things are just what you need to perfect your life. It'd be ludicrous if the marketing wasn't so effective.

All that happened in the early 80s was American guitar production slipped in quality thanks to complacency and a perceived lack of competition. Import guitars started getting traction, doing stuff that was as good or better than the American gear, but at more affordable prices. In time, the American companies became embarrassed and alarmed, realizing they had to pull up their socks. In the late 70s and early 80s I think Tokai tended to build better Fender clones than Fender did the real thing. But it was only for a certain period of time.

Anyway, yeah, I agree with you - the funny thing is nowadays people praise certain legendary Japanese factories as if high priests built the guitars there. It just amounts to more myth-making, but it doesn't mean that many of those guitars from that era weren't perfectly respectable guitars for pros and amateurs alike.

I think what happens is if you let enough decades back, people start to covet funky old instruments regardless of their quality. Rarity itself tends to slowly but surely drive values up, if only for collectors - even if a given instrument was made with questionable woods and shoddy build methods, had crappy electronics and were never particularly held in high esteem. I think that helps explain why certain off-brand Asian instruments from the 60s and 70s continue to have a market at all - it's because they are windows onto a vanished era and because they tend to have a particular look that sets them apart from typical output we see from the likes of Fender, Gibson, Gretsch, Rickenbacker, and a handful of other legendary American companies.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

Always wanted to make a guitar body from Canadian white birch. 
Technically a softwood but almost as hard as maple


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

djmarcelca said:


> Always wanted to make a guitar body from Canadian white birch.
> Technically a softwood but almost as hard as maple


Birch is a hardwood.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Maxer said:


> Sure. But I would also extend that scepticism and suggest that the big-name American companies also rely on a carefully-cultivated mythology to sell their products. _*It's a lot of smoke and mirrors. People like to think they've bought into some kind of holy grail of musicianship - it's an ego and status thing as much as it is an appreciation for nice finishes, iconic apperances, blingy materials, etc.*_ The basic guts of a guitar have changed very little over the decades_*but the marketing would suggest that these things are just what you need to perfect your life.*_ It'd be ludicrous if the marketing wasn't so effective.


^^^^This is spot on. 

The point about the marketing making people feel that this is what you need to perfect your life is a common one. Did you ever see a beer commercial with old, fat, ugly people? It's basically the same with guitars. 'Improve your life by buying from us'.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> ^^^^This is spot on.
> 
> The point about the marketing making people feel that this is what you need to perfect your life is a common one. Did you ever see a beer commercial with old, fat, ugly people? It's basically the same with guitars. 'Improve your life by buying from us'.


You guys are right, guitar companies should only build plain old guitars from cheap materials and sell them for peanuts so to not be complicit in profit taking or bringing anyone joy!


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

dradlin said:


> You guys are right, guitar companies should only build plain old guitars from cheap materials and sell them for peanuts so to not be complicit in profit taking or bringing anyone joy!


Huh? You are responding to posts about the power of marketing here, not guitar construction or the validity of company profit.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

bluzfish said:


> Huh? You are responding to posts about the power of marketing here, not guitar construction or the validity of company profit.


Read the whole thread...

Edit - Actually don't waste your time.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

dradlin said:


> bluzfish said:
> 
> 
> > Huh? You are responding to posts about the power of marketing here, not guitar construction or the validity of company profit.
> ...


^ this. Hahaha


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

dradlin said:


> Read the whole thread...
> 
> Edit - Actually don't waste your time.



I did. Post by post.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> ^^^^This is spot on.
> 
> The point about the marketing making people feel that this is what you need to perfect your life is a common one. Did you ever see a beer commercial with old, fat, ugly people? It's basically the same with guitars. 'Improve your life by buying from us'.


Theres a lot of psycho social issues at play in marketing/ selling guitars.

Guitars are tools so theres the practical aspects to them. functionality, durability, serviceability, sound, etc.
Guitars are a from of art in themselves in many cases, so esthetics come into play
Guitars have socio-economic aspects i.e. Buy American! And, make environmentally sound choices
Playing guitar also has a fantasy/sexualized side i.e. Be rock star /guitar god.

Point is, guitars do make a personal statement about their owners/players. Not entirely dissimilar to the way cars do. So, its not surprising to see them marketed in similar ways. The Fender/Gibson thing reminds me of the Ford/Chevy rivalry from my younger days. 
I kinda think of an R9 LP as a Corvette...marginally better than some cars that cost half as much, but sexy as hell, tied to a lot of American nostalgia, and aimed at ppl that can afford them anyway even if they don't necessarily need them, and who will likely leave them in their garages (cases) a lot


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Yeah, I was gonna say motorcycles but same thing.

Why does every discussion that remotely involves Gibson end up like this, the horse is dead stop wasting your energy flogging it. (not you, D)


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Diablo said:


> Theres a lot of psycho social issues at play in marketing/ selling guitars.
> 
> Guitars are tools so theres the practical aspects to them. functionality, durability, serviceability, sound, etc.
> Guitars are a from of art in themselves in many cases, so esthetics come into play
> ...


a good post, imo. not all there is to it, but you did succinctly cover alot. (if only i could learn the same brevity) that said, i wanna go down a bunny trail just a little bit - 

the corvette of the past, say, pre late 90's before they put out the C5 the corvette became a different car than it was. someone apparently had a vision, because since then the vette has steadily improved, and at this time, the vette is a pretty sweet ride, comparable to many euro and asian offerings. really, the vette was just as comparably favorable in all the yrs before 1976, when they became subject to emissions laws, and were de tuned. 
so when you think about it, 30 not that great yrs out of 65-70 yrs. only a couple shitty ones. so, in all a good batting avg. (truth is, i'm not really a corvette guy. i like firebirds. talk about over priced...)




keto said:


> Yeah, I was gonna say motorcycles but same thing.
> 
> Why does every discussion that remotely involves Gibson end up like this, the horse is dead stop wasting your energy flogging it. (not you, D)


hahaha man, you know, i have spent alot of time on motorcycle boards too. and you're soooo right. i've seen guys AND gals get so heated over the hardly vs. rice thing. and the points they use in argument is almost exactly the same, too.

but that said, i still argue the dark side of that argument, even though i'm buying one next weekend almost for sure. and if you want to laugh a little, think about the flight sim nerds i hung out with for all those years. they would argue just as heatedly over whether microsoft flight simulator was a simulator or a game.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Diablo said:


> _*There's a lot of psycho social issues at play in marketing/ selling guitars.*_
> 
> Guitars are tools so there's the practical aspects to them. functionality, durability, serviceability, sound, etc.
> Guitars are a from of art in themselves in many cases, so aesthetics come into play
> ...


Very well put. Unfortunately, the marketing excites some people to the point of buying them even when they can't afford them. How many ads have we seen that say _"I'm selling my ________. I don't want to but I need the money"._ These people have bought the hype and got themselves in trouble financially.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Very well put. Unfortunately, the marketing excites some people to the point of buying them even when they can't afford them.


That's their own fault, not the fault of the company or the marketing campaign. You can't blame somebody else for your own lack of discipline and self control.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

dradlin said:


> That's their own fault, not the fault of the company or the marketing campaign. You can't blame somebody else for your own lack of discipline and self control.


Knowing there are people who will do that and still marketing in that way, they are to blame.

If you know someone is a recovering alcoholic and is susceptible to losing his self-control and you invite him to a party where there is alcohol and he succumbs to the temptation, the person inviting him would be partly to blame. 

Even illegal groups take advantage of others in this way. From a human standpoint, is it not wrong to take advantage of other humans just to benefit yourself? Is that not selfish and self-serving?


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Knowing there are people who will do that and still marketing in that way, they are to blame.
> 
> If you know someone is a recovering alcoholic and is susceptible to losing his self-control and you invite him to a party where there is alcohol and he succumbs to the temptation, the person inviting him would be partly to blame.


That is completely absurd!

Edited to add... yes, marketing exists to sell products that a consumer may or may not need and often use questionable tactics. However, the ultimate responsibility remains with the consumer to educate themselves to guard themselves against the tactics. Barring false advertising, it's all fair game and an irrevocable part of our culture. When I watch TV with my kids, we talk about the commercials so that they can see through the tactics. Magazine covers are photoshopped, you know that unless you've been living under a rock. Understanding media is a fundamental survival skill in today's culture.

I don't blame Gibson for building a beautiful guitar, marketing it with attractive photos and maybe even nurture ones illusion of becoming a rock star, and selling it at a handsome profit. That's good business!


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

You have got to be kidding!

I don't even know where to start. With your reasoning its a woman's fault she gets raped for being/dressing attractive, its a gun manufacturers/store owners/gun itself fault people get shot and killed by a deranged lunatic, it's vodkas fault for drunk driving.

Somewhere a therapist has an opening today.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> Very well put. Unfortunately, the marketing excites some people to the point of buying them even when they can't afford them. How many ads have we seen that say _"I'm selling my ________. I don't want to but I need the money"._ These people have bought the hype and got themselves in trouble financially.


Now you are saying you know why people need some money ?
Must be nice to be aware of everybody's motivation to sell something .
Maybe you should wash windows for free,you know,just in case people need a little cash down the road sometime .

ridiculous



Steadfastly said:


> If you know someone is a recovering alcoholic and is susceptible to losing his self-control and you invite him to a party where there is alcohol and he succumbs to the temptation, the person inviting him would be partly to blame.


I would suggest if you know someone is a recovering alcoholic and is susceptible to losing his self-control,that you not invite him to the party in the first place .


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Your analogy is way off Steadly.

Something closer would be: Because there may be alcoholics out there, 
they should stop advertising liquor.

That, would be closer to what you're saying about Gibson and a susceptible buyer.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

sulphur said:


> Your analogy is way off Steadly.
> 
> Something closer would be: Because there may be alcoholics out there,
> they should stop advertising liquor.
> ...


No, that is not what I said.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Bubb said:


> Now you are saying you know why people need some money ?
> Must be nice to be aware of everybody's motivation to sell something .
> Maybe you should wash windows for free,you know,just in case people need a little cash down the road sometime .
> 
> ridiculous


Indeed...COMPLETELY ridiculous. I see people selling Squiers, Jay Tursers and all manner of guitars because the 'need the money'...but it's only Gibson's fault in Steadfastly's bizarro world.

I see commercials for awesome cars all of the time but I don't go out and buy them. I love horsepower, I love speed and I love cars with appeal (on a variety of levels) but I am just keeping my KIA Rio and it has none of the aforementioned. However, if I do succumb to the Veloster or an Audi or Porsche...I'm taking Gibson to court.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> No, that is not what I said.


I know that's not what you said, it's a closer analogy than what you portrayed.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

_____________


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I hope this leads to Steadly getting a Twitter account to share his wisdom with the world.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

_____________


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

nkjanssen said:


> Could turn into an international phenomenon...
> 
> "$hit Steadly Says"


HAAA!! I tried to 'thumbs up' that 5 times!!


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> Knowing there are people who will do that and still marketing in that way, they are to blame.
> 
> If you know someone is a recovering alcoholic and is susceptible to losing his self-control and you invite him to a party where there is alcohol and he succumbs to the temptation, the person inviting him would be partly to blame.
> 
> Even illegal groups take advantage of others in this way. From a human standpoint, is it not wrong to take advantage of other humans just to benefit yourself? Is that not selfish and self-serving?


This is strange thinking. Why absolve the owners of blame for buying something they can't afford? It's their dime, their time - they're the ones who stepped into the guitar store and shelled out the bucks. Guitar companies don't pimp their products - they pretty much sell themselves.

Moreover, there's no need to solely blame the big name companies that charge top dollar for their gear. You can get in over your head buying tons of cheap and/or used guitars. Again, if you couldn't actually afford those purchases, that would be _your_ problem, _your l_ack of self-control, not the fault of the seller. The alcoholic analogy is flawed. The guitar store (or private seller) is not "enabling" you. You're the one in control, making the purchase. They're just there to close the deal and do business. There's no need to drag morality into this.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

I'm going to play David Bowie's advocate & say that the truly evil marketers are the manufacturers who try to pass off substandard instruments (i.e. shoddy hardware & electronics, photo flame tops, sharp fret ends etc.) as the same thing at a lower price point. Just because the spec sheet for 2 guitars reads similarly (i.e. solid wood construction, humbucking pickups, 6 tuning keys, intonatable bridge etc.) doesn't mean that they're alike.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Maxer said:


> This is strange thinking. Why absolve the owners of blame for buying something they can't afford? It's their dime, their time - they're the ones who stepped into the guitar store and shelled out the bucks. Guitar companies don't pimp their products - they pretty much sell themselves.
> 
> Moreover, there's no need to solely blame the big name companies that charge top dollar for their gear. You can get in over your head buying tons of cheap and/or used guitars. Again, if you couldn't actually afford those purchases, that would be _your_ problem, _your l_ack of self-control, not the fault of the seller. The alcoholic analogy is flawed. The guitar store (or private seller) is not "enabling" you. You're the one in control, making the purchase. They're just there to close the deal and do business. There's no need to drag morality into this.


Whatever happened to the concept of free will & personal responsibility? To quote Glenn Frey, "Your momma's too thin & your daddy's too fat. Get over it!"

Agree about the alcoholic analogy being flawed. There's a difference between the liability of a bartender over-serving a patron who then drives drunk vs. having alcohol available at a party where an alcoholic may attend. My Dr. says I need to lose a few lbs. It's up to me to make smarter food choices & get more exercise.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

My Dr. told me to lose some pounds years ago ,I just switched to a fat Dr .


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Bubb said:


> My Dr. told me to lose some pounds years ago ,I just switched to a fat Dr .


I wasn't very hip & cool, so I switched to a PHAT Dr.

- - - Updated - - -

The is the best kind of Dr. (one with 2 degrees).

[video=youtube;aAhFKB2hoIU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAhFKB2hoIU[/video]


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Ridiculous. Manufacturers offer you options. You have the free will to chose which option you wish. Period.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

vadsy said:


> I hope this leads to Steadly getting a Twitter account to share his wisdom with the world.


Where's the "Ironic Like" button?

- - - Updated - - -



gtrguy said:


> Ridiculous. Manufacturers offer you options. You have the free will to chose which option you wish. Period.


[video=youtube;YpCASVFyQoE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpCASVFyQoE[/video]


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Hey everyone! FYI April is Gibson Month at Long & McQuade!


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## neldom (Apr 29, 2009)

Some days I don't miss Shawn Lane at all.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Roryfan said:


> I'm going to play David Bowie's advocate & say that the truly evil marketers are the manufacturers who try to pass off substandard instruments (i.e. shoddy hardware & electronics, photo flame tops, sharp fret ends etc.) as the same thing at a lower price point. Just because the spec sheet for 2 guitars reads similarly (i.e. solid wood construction, humbucking pickups, 6 tuning keys, intonatable bridge etc.) doesn't mean that they're alike.


Sure. But buyer beware still applies. It comes back to you always having choices in how you go about purchasing a guitar.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Maxer said:


> Sure. But buyer beware still applies. It comes back to you always having choices in how you go about purchasing a guitar.


Agreed. I would never buy a guitar w/out playing it first & try to bring along one of my favourites for comparison's sake prior to opening my wallet. 

My point was that the ankle-biters will copy some vagaries of a spec sheet in an attempt to fool folks who don't know any better into thinking that it's the same thing. For example, somebody who doesn't know much about cars might think that a Kia Optima & Audi A4 are the same thing because they both have alloy wheels, automatic transmission & air conditioning. But if you can actually drive......


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Steadfastly said:


> Knowing there are people who will do that and still marketing in that way, they are to blame.
> 
> If you know someone is a recovering alcoholic and is susceptible to losing his self-control and you invite him to a party where there is alcohol and he succumbs to the temptation, the person inviting him would be partly to blame.
> 
> Even illegal groups take advantage of others in this way. From a human standpoint, is it not wrong to take advantage of other humans just to benefit yourself? Is that not selfish and self-serving?


This has to be the stupidest thing I've ever read on every forum I go to. :sSig_Idontgetit:


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## DrHook (Oct 28, 2013)

And it's precisely that thinking that has brought society to it's knees and in a pseudo police state. While we are our brother's keeper, we do so at the expense of our own liberties and common sense, and instead have become a knee jerk reactionary society that invents new presidence (sp) for every instance of someone calling foul....thereby choking and limiting the rest of society. Now we just look at blaming OTHER people instead of taking responsibility for our own actions.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Hey guys, I've really enjoyed meeting various GC members & would like to meet more so I'm having a party & you're all invited. 

But just to make sure that nobody gets into trouble because of me there will be no alcohol, cigarettes (of any kind!!!), sugary sodas, cancer-causing diet pop, salty snacks, fatty foods or sweet desserts. Have no fear, there will be plenty of filtered tap water, quinoa & raw vegetables for all! 

Loud music is obviously verboten along with card playing, lest somebody be inspired to drive to the casino.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Roryfan said:


> Hey guys, I've really enjoyed meeting various GC members & would like to meet more so I'm having a party & you're all invited.
> 
> But just to make sure that nobody gets into trouble because of me there will be no alcohol, cigarettes (of any kind!!!), sugary sodas, cancer-causing diet pop, salty snacks, fatty foods or sweet desserts. Have no fear, there will be plenty of filtered tap water, quinoa & raw vegetables for all!
> 
> Loud music is obviously verboten along with card playing, lest somebody be inspired to drive to the casino.


I'll bring gluten free dip and my Perry Como albums !!!!:sFun_dancing:


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Bubb said:


> I'll bring gluten free dip and my Perry Como albums !!!!:sFun_dancing:


No Perry Como. His music is representative of an era when the record industry stole from & oppressed African-American artists. Besides, he's just a gateway to Pat Boone.


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## DrHook (Oct 28, 2013)

Roryfan said:


> Hey guys, I've really enjoyed meeting various GC members & would like to meet more so I'm having a party & you're all invited.
> 
> But just to make sure that nobody gets into trouble because of me there will be no alcohol, cigarettes (of any kind!!!), sugary sodas, cancer-causing diet pop, salty snacks, fatty foods or sweet desserts. Have no fear, there will be plenty of filtered tap water, quinoa & raw vegetables for all!
> 
> Loud music is obviously verboten along with card playing, lest somebody be inspired to drive to the casino.


Let me run that by my lawyer first, we may have have to draw up a liability contract 

I see how it goes...from Perry to Pat...next thing you know...Frankie and Annette...then *gasp*...Sonny and Cher...


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

DrHook said:


> Let me run that by my lawyer first, we may have have to draw up a liability contract
> 
> I see how it goes...from Perry to Pat...next thing you know...Frankie and Annette...then *gasp*...Sonny and Cher...


NO NO NO!!! All those songs about twisting & itsy witsy teeny weeny polka dot bikinis will drive libidos through the roof & then I'll be liable for the rash of sexual assaults that will surely occur. 

And if you put Cher on the HiFi you know who will show up..... When I said that "everybody" was invited that obviously didn't include "the gays". What if they brought their leader? Can you imagine if David Bowie came to my house?!? What kind of a party would that be?


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Roryfan said:


> NO NO NO!!! All those songs about twisting & itsy witsy teeny weeny polka dot bikinis will drive libidos through the roof & then I'll be liable for the rash of sexual assaults that will surely occur.
> 
> And if you put Cher on the HiFi you know who will show up..... When I said that "everybody" was invited that obviously didn't include "the gays". What if they brought their leader? Can you imagine if David Bowie came to my house?!? What kind of a party would that be?


Sounds like my type of party since I don't drink, smoke or do drugs....right now. I've been married long enough that sex is all in my imagination and I can't stand diet pop. Or sunny and share. Just as long as there's a sacrifice; a nice chicken or a goat or someone like that. I'll pass on the filtered water, i've heard what they put in those filters.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Electraglide said:


> Sounds like my type of party since I don't drink, smoke or do drugs....right now. I've been married long enough that sex is all in my imagination and I can't stand diet pop. Or sunny and share. Just as long as there's a sacrifice; a nice chicken or a goat or someone like that. I'll pass on the filtered water, i've heard what they put in those filters.


Adult sex is either boring or dirty.....I bet sunny didn't like to share with Gregg Allman.

A goat sacrifice sounds like a wonderful idea. My GF's father makes a mean roti, so nothing will be wasted. And I'll tell him not to make it too spicy in case anyone with IBS attends. When Dave Stieb said that "Only you can strike out ileitis & colitis!" I knew that he was talking directly to me. 

Although that may not be my fault as I once read on the internet that explosive diarrhea is genetic. Apparently it runs in people's jeans.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

____________


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Roryfan said:


> Adult sex is either boring or dirty.....I bet sunny didn't like to share with Gregg Allman.
> 
> A goat sacrifice sounds like a wonderful idea. My GF's father makes a mean roti, so nothing will be wasted. And I'll tell him not to make it too spicy in case anyone with IBS attends. When Dave Stieb said that "Only you can strike out ileitis & colitis!" I knew that he was talking directly to me.
> 
> Although that may not be my fault as I once read on the internet that explosive diarrhea is genetic. Apparently it runs in people's jeans.


Ok, you can cook the goat....after. Don't worry about stuffing it, it won't be empty.
And you should write a song with that first line in it. It's pretty catchy. Just no pictures please.
As far as the op goes, it sounds like a good deal if it's the only way you can buy the guitar. And a better deal than if you put it on a high interest credit card information make the same payments.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Roryfan said:


> Hey guys, I've really enjoyed meeting various GC members & would like to meet more so I'm having a party & you're all invited.
> 
> But just to make sure that nobody gets into trouble because of me there will be no alcohol, cigarettes (of any kind!!!), sugary sodas, cancer-causing diet pop, salty snacks, fatty foods or sweet desserts. Have no fear, there will be plenty of filtered tap water, quinoa & raw vegetables for all!
> 
> Loud music is obviously verboten along with card playing, lest somebody be inspired to drive to the casino.


What if I get in a car accident driving there? Do you have insurance for that? :sCh_odie:


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

I think we should have this party. We could rent one of these:









and put ol' Steadfastly in the chair. I am sure that would keep people occupied for hours - may have to reinforce the fence a bit though.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

smorgdonkey said:


> I think we should have this party. We could rent one of these:


i say we grab some random ceo, black van style, and put him/her on the chair. but we put a few pirranas in the water. not enough to kill them. just maybe 2 or 3. just to keep 'em on their toes. we charge $20 for 3 baseballs. we'd all be driving new cars the next day


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## DrHook (Oct 28, 2013)

smorgdonkey said:


> I think we should have this party. We could rent one of these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No need to rent, just invite me...I'll bring that and one of those strong man sledgehammer things that makes a bell go DING DING when the weight goes all the way to the top, I'll bring tents, popcorn machines, slushy machines, snow cone machines, industrial 8ft long bbq's, propane deep fryers.....oh wait...this is getting into an area of liability...hmmmmm....maybe not  Pity.....


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Robert1950 said:


> Did the math for a ES339 at $47 biweekly, 26 payments per year, 3 years to pay... $3666.


If it's $3666 for a ES339 financed, what will this '59 end up costing in the end? I think the price tag currently says $6599 and maybe that's why I haven't seen many of these just hanging in store.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i picked up my les paul tonight. i left my phone at work so i can't post pics. but be warned, i am about to post a ngd thread. holy smokes i gotta good'n


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

cheezyridr said:


> i picked up my les paul tonight. i left my phone at work so i can't post pics. but be warned, i am about to post a ngd thread. holy smokes i gotta good'n


Waiting...waiting...waiting...waiting.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

vadsy said:


> View attachment 8029


WTF is that LP on the right? Looks like Koa or something... beautiful!


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I agree it's very nice but I don't have much info on it. Here is a picture a friend texted me of it last week, might not be the best quality since it's being used from a text message.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Yeah, they made Standards in Koa last year, at an upcharge from the 'regular' maple top. Takes the ticket from around $2800 to around $3300 IIRC. There are quite a few of them around.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Nice, hadn't seen one of those before... beautiful... pricey...


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## neldom (Apr 29, 2009)

I'm sure you could find one from Ibanez for 1/10th the price and twice the quality with next to no effort.


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## ampjunkie (Jul 30, 2009)

I bought an Ibanez AS153 late last year, and at $899 (it is now $999), it compares favorably (I would venture to say -- better) than a Gibson ES-335 that might be priced new at $3.5K. Ibanez's lower models offer even more bang for the buck. This just shows that Chinese made guitars can be excellent depending on the quality control of the company.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

ampjunkie said:


> I bought an Ibanez AS153 late last year, and at $899 (it is now $999), it compares favorably (I would venture to say -- better) than a Gibson ES-335 that might be priced new at $3.5K. Ibanez's lower models offer even more bang for the buck. This just shows that Chinese made guitars can be excellent depending on the quality control of the company.


I have had a few and played a bunch. They are nice guitars but they feel like toys to me. Better? Well, that's a jumbo can of worms...I like women who are 5 feet tall and have dark hair - they are the best for me. Blondes are nice but...

See?

As for Chinese: rarely is the quality the entire story/subject/angle when discussing Chinese made guitars. Almost anyone who ever made anything got better at doing it as time passed (ask anyone who had a 1977 Honda Civic how fast it rusted out) and Ibanez has always been known for tight quality control.

Speaking of Ibanez, I heard someone say one time that they don't actually own any manufacturing facilities and that they just contract out all of their manufacturing & that they just have a bunch of QC people. True? I don't really know but it was an interesting story considering that I had heard another tidbit one time that said that Ibanez has 5-7 QC people for every person in manufacturing. My theory, after hearing that was that perhaps they have no 'hands on' guitar construction people but count their set-up people and managers/inventory control people under the manufacturing umbrella.

It would be great info to have to corroborate or deny those unsubstantiated stories. More interesting than the usual stuff though isn't it?

I now return the readers of this thread to their regularly scheduled 'Gibson sucks' programming.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

smorgdonkey said:


> I have had a few and played a bunch. They are nice guitars but they feel like toys to me./QUOTE]
> 
> I share that sentiment...


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

dradlin said:


> smorgdonkey said:
> 
> 
> > I have had a few and played a bunch. They are nice guitars but they feel like toys to me./QUOTE]
> ...


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> I would like to hear your specific reasons on why they feel so inferior to you if you don't mind.


One can't use words to describe subtleties of sensory stimulus.

Go feel for yourself... you are welcome to your opinion.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

last year when i bought my strat i originally left the house looking for an ibanez semi hollow, or some semi hollow that was of what i consider to be acceptable quality _for what i planned to spend_. i tried 3 guitars, and i didn't like any of them. it seemed like a nice guitar, but in my hands, i did not like the way it felt at all. having owned 335 copies that i did like, i know that the body style is one i can enjoy. but the ibanez guitars were not comfortable for me. they were all real pretty though.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> they were all real pretty though.


That works against them for me as I just don't like the bling. Is 'bling' still part of the modern vernacular? I would not completely discount a guitar solely on how 'tarted-up' is was though. They have a certain plastic sort of feel and a certain feel of fragility to me as well. I have heard them sound pretty good - no doubt about that.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

dradlin said:


> One can't use words to describe subtleties of sensory stimulus.
> 
> Go feel for yourself... you are welcome to your opinion.





cheezyridr said:


> last year when i bought my strat i originally left the house looking for an ibanez semi hollow, or some semi hollow that was of what i consider to be acceptable quality _for what i planned to spend_. i tried 3 guitars, and i didn't like any of them. it seemed like a nice guitar, but in my hands, i did not like the way it felt at all. having owned 335 copies that i did like, i know that the body style is one i can enjoy. but the ibanez guitars were not comfortable for me. they were all real pretty though.


Interesting points from you both, especially when some who have owned both and reviewed them liked the Ibanez as much or better. Many of them gave specific points of why and I was looking for something specific from others who feel the other way. Maybe someone else can share some specifics they have come across.

For me, there is nothing wrong with the Gibson and there shouldn't be; they've been making this model for over 50 years now. I don't like it, personally because of the thin body, but I don't like anyone's guitars of that style with the thin body.


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

Must say my recent experiences with Long & McQuade have been quite positive. Don't know if this is the best place for this, but here goes a true story. Made my first trip to a Fender dealer's shop in 1956, handled all the Strat's and Tele's that I now see in the Fender books. Was not impressed, but I was young and dumb, lusted after Gibson's. Fast forward to about 1980. Still could not play much, but I had a good job, and a credit card. Negotiated hard, and actually purchased a brand new cherry red Gibson ES-335...And...a black and ivory Les Paul Standard...$1,800.00 for both, out the door. Six months later, mounting bills, sold them both to a gigging band leader, for a loss of several hundred dollars. Ah, well, my one chance to be a [email protected]


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

rhh7 said:


> Must say my recent experiences with Long & McQuade have been quite positive. Don't know if this is the best place for this, but here goes a true story. Made my first trip to a Fender dealer's shop in 1956, handled all the Strat's and Tele's that I now see in the Fender books. Was not impressed, but I was young and dumb, lusted after Gibson's. Fast forward to about 1980. Still could not play much, but I had a good job, and a credit card. Negotiated hard, and actually purchased a brand new cherry red Gibson ES-335...And...a black and ivory Les Paul Standard...$1,800.00 for both, out the door. Six months later, mounting bills, sold them both to a gigging band leader, for a loss of several hundred dollars. Ah, well, my one chance to be a [email protected]


Well, that can happen to anyone.


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## ampjunkie (Jul 30, 2009)

dradlin said:


> One can't use words to describe subtleties of sensory stimulus.
> 
> Go feel for yourself... you are welcome to your opinion.


It definitely would be interesting to do a double-blind test on electric guitars like they recently did with Strad violins. Is it the brand name or price tag that is making you feel like it's a toy? :smile-new: I certainly don't get that sensation with the AS153. And that's after playing some custom guitars worth much more (like 10X).


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

ampjunkie said:


> It definitely would be interesting to do a double-blind test on electric guitars like they recently did with Strad violins. Is it the brand name or price tag that is making you feel like it's a toy? :smile-new: I certainly don't get that sensation with the AS153. And that's after playing some custom guitars worth much more (like 10X).


Perceptions, prejudices, emotional ties, etc. can play such a large part of how we feel about something, often giving it more value than it really has. 

We see this in the example of people who can't throw anything away. Their homes are virtually littered with stuff. To us it's junk but to them they perceive it as something of value.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

ampjunkie said:


> It definitely would be interesting to do a double-blind test on electric guitars like they recently did with Strad violins. Is it the brand name or price tag that is making you feel like it's a toy? :smile-new: I certainly don't get that sensation with the AS153. And that's after playing some custom guitars worth much more (like 10X).


It isn't the brand name that makes them feel like toys. I have played a lot of Ibanez that didn't feel like toys so I was expecting the same from their hollows and semi-hollows. They just do (to me).

Blind tests don't do anything for me. Things are what they are.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

more on topic, my recent guitar purchase was at L&M on bloor. so far i have purchased a guitar, amplifier, a few pedals, and the usual stuff like cables picks and strings. they also serviced my amp under warranty. although i like shopping at 12th fret more, there isn't one negative thing i could say about L&M.


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