# Low Watt Amps



## Tarbender (Apr 7, 2006)

I know this subject has been covered before, but there are some new players out there and I'm contemplating purchasing another amp for home use. The one that has really grabbed my attention is the highly touted *Swart 6V6se *and I'm struggling with picking up the phone and buying it right this minute. However, I'm still smarting (financially) from the last low powered amp that I bought last year, an *Emery Superbaby*. At only 5 watts and the ability to mould your sound by swapping tubes on the fly, it promised to be the answer to my dilemma of rich tones and breakup without waking up the neighbours. No matter what tubes I used (I know I spent @ $150.00 on different ones), or speakers (again add $250.00), I couldn't get the volume passed 2. So while this might be a great amp in some peoples eyes, it is no bedroom amp. So as I'm doing my research, and making sure the Swart is the amp for me, I came across another amp, a *Gries 5*, which features a gain and master volume control. The limited reviews I've been able to find seem good, but the lack of overwhelming comments on them has made me put them on the bottom of my short list. Any comments opinions and/or suggestions are welcomed.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

If you are considering spending that much money anyway, have you ever thought about contacting a Canadian builder to see if they can build you EXACTLY what you want?

I read a great review in a magazine about the Swart, but have only seen one post on any of the forums I use about people actually getting one.

I have a Reverend Goblin which is 5/15 watts switchable. It also has a gain control, so you can get pretty decent tones out of it at low volumes. I think you'd definitely want something with a decent master volume. I have yet to hear a 5 watt amp I would consider quiet enough to be a 'bedroom' amp.


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## Tarbender (Apr 7, 2006)

These amps I'm looking at are around the $1000.00 CAD price point. I have contacted some of the Canadian builders and what they can basically offer me is thier version of a Tweed Champ which I have and enjoy. For something specifically built for me, with either master volume or power scaling, we are looking at a lot more money. I've also tried the attenuators and find that they just suck the tone out of the amp. Even master volume amps are not really a perfect solution. I have a Fender Blues Jr with master volume and still can't get the volume past 3 without widow ratllin'.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Tarbender said:


> I've also tried the attenuators and find that they just suck the tone out of the amp. Even master volume amps are not really a perfect solution. I have a Fender Blues Jr with master volume and still can't get the volume past 3 without widow ratllin'.



I hear you on that. The Blues Jr. has one of the worst master volumes I have ever heard though. I have owned 2 amps that actually had decent ones. The Peavey Classic 20 (GREAT gain tones at low volumes) and the Reverend Goblin. So they do exist.

Do you have any soldering skills? You could build a Weber kit. They are super cheap. They offer some pretty basic amps, which seems to be what you want. I think I could even figure one out hah. https://taweber.powweb.com/store/kits.htm . Some of the Weber Original Kits looks pretty cool. I have thought about making a Smokin' Joe. It's just a single EL84.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

I just picked up the Orange Tiny Terror. While it is an awesome amp at bedroom levels, I discovered yesterday at practice, that it even gets better as it gets louder. So, now I have come to a conclusion, it seems, that to get the tones that everyone wants at louder levels, its apparent that you need to get the speakers moving as well. This must be a big contributing factor......no?

Anyways, anyone looking for a really cool low wattage amp, do yourself a favor and give the Tiny Terror a try!


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Why not just get an attenuator?


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## Pauls2 (Jul 28, 2006)

I have one of these:

http://www.stephensonamps.com/stagehog.htm

It might be what you are looking for.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Noobcake said:


> Why not just get an attenuator?


Your answer is below.



Tarbender said:


> I've also tried the attenuators and find that they just suck the tone out of the amp.


I find a Tweed champ style at lower volume with a quality OD pedal or two seems to have some success. But there has got to be something else out there that won't break the bank.


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## GuitaristZ (Jan 26, 2007)

zvex nano is waht you want my friend haha


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## Tarbender (Apr 7, 2006)

Thanks for all the thoughts and ideas. 

:wave: The *Tweed Champ *that I have is a kit (*Marsh*) so I really don't want to go that route. 

:wave: And again, Ive tried an attenuator and feel that it's not a solution. 

:wave: I've looked at the *Stephenson Stagehog*, but again you're looking at over $800.00 CAD for essentially an effects pedal that can double as a practice amp, plus I'd have to buy a cab so that puts it well over $1000.00 and there is a minimum 4 month wait.

:wave: The only one out there that really has my interest is the *Swart 6V6se *so I curious to hear more from *jroberts* about it. I do like the sound of my Champ so if the *Swart 6V6se *is similar but lets me shap my sound more with the tone control I might be very interested.

Thanks again to all. I'm still open to other suggestions so keep em coming!


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

I'd recommend a L'il Dawg, but I think his waiting list is up to a year now. You could get his Champster with a tone control and a master volume added for WAY below the price of the Swart. Li'l Dawg's prices are really tough to beat especially considering the outstanding quality of the amps.

I didn't have the Master on my Champster, but I had the tone control. I know some of the purists aren't into that, but I found it to be quite useful.

it would be worth at least trying to contact him.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...my mind is completely open to change on this, but i have found that nothing beats solid state or digital for playing at very low volumes.

to get the kind of even response you need at such low volume, you end up pushing a tube amp to unacceptably high volume. that, at least, has been my experience thus far.

-dh


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...my mind is completely open to change on this, but i have found that nothing beats solid state or digital for playing at very low volumes.
> 
> to get the kind of even response you need at such low volume, you end up pushing a tube amp to unacceptably high volume. that, at least, has been my experience thus far.
> 
> -dh


I agree with you 100% on this. You can pick up something like a used Vox Pathfinder for under $100 and they sound so good I would put them up against a lot of tube amps. And they definitely sound better at super low volumes.

Unless you have a ton of cash, there just isn't a lot of practical choices. I mean, it would be cool to buy a 1 watt tube amp for my bedroom use what for me it would be ridiculous to spend that much money for it. A modelling amp or a SS amp is just way more practical. Plus, they usually have a headphone jack and a line out to the computer as well.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

I've tried every conceivable way of taming at tube amp to apartment levels and it just cannot be done (different attenuators, Smicz Tad tube adaptors, laying the amp on its face, blanets, pulling tubes, master volume etc etc). Tubes are simply loud when overdriven. Even a 1 watt tube amp can be too loud.

Either get a good od pedal for your champ or go digital. I bought a Vox DA5 practice amp. $150 new, several different amp models and effects, and the size of toaster! My tube amp with a Boss Blues Driver sound pretty good at low volumes, but it is still pretty loud. Tube amps seem to "bloom" in a way that ss and digital don't; that is great for playing live but bad for low volume practice.

About the only thing I haven't tried is power scaling. Given the limited success of my other attempts to tame the tube, I just cannot justify spending more money.

TG


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

traynor_garnet said:


> I bought a Vox DA5 practice amp. $150 new, several different amp models and effects, and the size of toaster!TG



...my girlfriend gave me a da5 last christmas. just an amazing little practice amp (its digital, so listen off axis..).

i also have a pathfinder 15r that is equally amazing.

-dh


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## I_cant_play (Jun 26, 2006)

another option maybe

http://www.matamp.co.uk/minimat.htm


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## Tarbender (Apr 7, 2006)

Thanks again for all the suggestions. I have tried the VOX DA5 and just didn't like anything about it - no offense to those that do. And I do have a small SS amp, a Fender GDEC, and can coax some not too bad sounds out of but I primarly use for backing traxs and a drum machine... but I'd never bring it to a jam or even consider it a "practice" amp. I guess short of building a unit with power scaling ( don't want to use any kind of attenuator), this is an on going search for "the" sound. Still might splurge on the Swart however. It just seems like its' got a lot more possibilities for shaping the sounds... Thanks everyone.:rockon2:


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

hi
geez ive been trying all kinds of things - i have the same problem
i ended up getting a valve jr combo- i put a master volume in it, but still no usable tone at low volume- so i went crazy and upgraded all the caps and did all the resistor mods- sounds incredible, cost about 20$ to upgrade- but is far too loud to use in my apartment. i built an attenuator to reduce it to .63 watts- sounds weak and anemic. i tried a hotplate on it and several larger amps- thats again no solution for me. an overdrive pedal sounds the same on any amp at low volume to me- might as well be using a ss amp then, and of course then i wouldnt need a pedal cause the ss amps clip fine at low volume, and pedals are bullshit anyway.
i tried a bunch of amps with master volumes and none sounds right at low volume.
ive been using software amps, but i dont want to record with them. 
ultimately i need the sound of a decent speaker bieng pushed
im going to try building an isolation box- that will perhaps be the answer- i could monitor the output through my mixer and/or pc at any volume- or use headphones-
still i will continue my hunt for the perfect home- itll be 2 blocks from work and no neighbours for at least 1/4 mile- and with grocery and beer store across the street............


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## Tarbender (Apr 7, 2006)

You're from Hamilton aren't you? :rockon2:


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## Tarbender (Apr 7, 2006)

Appreciate your input *jroberts* and I'm thinking that if I sell my other amps, my Champ, my Valve Jr, it won't be that much of a leap for me $ wise. I really wish there was a dealer here that so I could try one. But if I didn't like it (yeah, like that'll happen) my loss is still cheaper than a trip to Montreal (but with out Lafleur hotdogs or Schwartz’s smoke meat). OK - here it is, I guess I was waiting for someone to talk me out of buying a Swart 6V6se. No one has yet. Even jroberts qualified his response about my needs and this amp, but even still, I think some of his exuberance shone thru. So, unless some one can give me a reason not to buy this amp.....


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## NB_Terry (Feb 2, 2006)

There's a guy on TGP asking about the Gibson GA-5, from his sig. it looks like he owns a half dozen really nice small amps, including the Swart. You should PM him.

Edit: The guy's handle is farlowhigh


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

I must have missed something, but why again do you think this amp will be low volume whereas the other tube amps are not? This isn't a rhetorical question.

If this is just a small tube amp it will be too loud. Sorry, it is the sad truth. It may be a great amp but it won't be a quite great amp and you will end up looking for something else in a few months.

There, Don't buy it! (as you requested) None 
TG



Tarbender said:


> Appreciate your input *jroberts* and I'm thinking that if I sell my other amps, my Champ, my Valve Jr, it won't be that much of a leap for me $ wise. I really wish there was a dealer here that so I could try one. But if I didn't like it (yeah, like that'll happen) my loss is still cheaper than a trip to Montreal (but with out Lafleur hotdogs or Schwartz’s smoke meat). OK - here it is, I guess I was waiting for someone to talk me out of buying a Swart 6V6se. No one has yet. Even jroberts qualified his response about my needs and this amp, but even still, I think some of his exuberance shone thru. So, unless some one can give me a reason not to buy this amp.....


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

fraser said:


> still i will continue my hunt for the perfect home- itll be 2 blocks from work and no neighbours for at least 1/4 mile- and with grocery and beer store across the street............


I'm beginning to think that is the only answer too.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

traynor_garnet said:


> I must have missed something, but why again do you think this amp will be low volume whereas the other tube amps are not? This isn't a rhetorical question.
> 
> If this is just a small tube amp it will be too loud. Sorry, it is the sad truth. It may be a great amp but it won't be a quite great amp and you will end up looking for something else in a few months.
> 
> ...


Ya IMO the posts pretty much conclude that you won't be getting anything a heck of a lot different then what you have, and something that likely won't do a thing to solve your volume issues. I think you are about to drop a ton of cash on something you haven't tried, and that likely won't solve any of your problems.

Again, as TG said "There, Don't buy it! (as you requested)"


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## Tarbender (Apr 7, 2006)

I surrender... points taken...but that income tax refund is still burning a hole in my pocket! Just a bad case of GAS None


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## jcayer (Mar 25, 2007)

Tarbender said:


> I surrender... points taken...but that income tax refund is still burning a hole in my pocket! Just a bad case of GAS None



Well,

how about a cash down on a sound proof house were you can use more powerful amps :tongue: 

:food-smiley-004:


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## Brian G (Aug 17, 2006)

A big interest for me as well. From my digging into this topic, I think a good amp using Power Scaling is worth investigating. Seems like you can truly get the tubes sounding like they're working (albeit without the character of speakers being pushed hard), and still enjoy the character of a truly world-class amp.

Unfortunately, the only amps I know of that fill this bill are the new Suhr Badger head (combo coming supposedly), or a Reeves. A Reeves 6 without PS won't do it, like the Valve Jr., still way too loud on its' own, but you can get a Reeves 18 stock with PS.

Apparently Fuchs will do Power Scaling as a custom order add-on.

I also have a DA-5 and an ADVT-15, and they're neat toys, and certainly have their place in the universe, but even at low volumes, my Fandango eats them alive. (Some of the Riveras have level controls on the loop send and return, and you can use these, in conjunction with the Master, to get better sound at lower volumes. The trick is to set the return at a lower level.)

Have also read interesting things about the Fender Princeton Recording amp in this regard.

Just more fuel to the fire.

Brian


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Brian G said:


> Have also read interesting things about the Fender Princeton Recording amp in this regard.
> 
> 
> 
> Brian



Ya that's an option as well. It's a pretty pricey amp too though.

The new Peavey Windsor Studio that comes out soon has some of the same features. It will also run almost any type of tube. I am looking forward to trying one when they are available.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Tarbender said:


> I surrender... points taken...but that income tax refund is still burning a hole in my pocket! Just a bad case of GAS None


I think you mentioned something about a condo or something. (I know, I shouldn't be interfering with GAS)


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## old crow (Aug 17, 2006)

I've also been on the hunt and sofar tried a Carr Mercury that I liked. However I think speaker size very much comes into play here as I've found my Champ w/ 8" sounds better at low vol. than any of my other amps at similar levels. Maybe this indicated that not only do you have to push the power tubes but also get the speaker moving. I've not tried any amps with smaller speakers than 8" but maybe that's the answer. A small speaker, smaller than 8" , that you can put really close to your head, cause I also think what we really like, are loud guitars in our ears :wave: You know those nice harmonics and overtones you get when you play those Keef bends :confused-smiley-010 
So...other than some of the "vintage" very cheap cheesy amps with 6" or smaller speakers, is there anything like that available on the "boutique" market? Does anyone even make a decent less than 8" guitar amp speaker ??


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## Brian G (Aug 17, 2006)

The new Fender Champion (Champ?) 600 has a 6" speaker - don't know if it's "quiet" enough though. 5 watts like the Valve Jr.

Brian


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

I find the 6 inch speakers a bit tinny sounding, but for a low fi/low volume practice amp that could be just the ticket.

I have been trying to find the big tube amp sound at low volumes for years. Here's what i'm going to try next:

http://www.londonpower.com/amps.htm

The new Aurora (0-25 watts variable output) with some less efficient speakers (weber makes some, or a greenback celestion) could be just the ticket. The trouble with a lot of small amps is that it takes at least a watt to make the speaker sound "right" and at 1 watt they are already really loud.


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## GuitaristZ (Jan 26, 2007)

this might help:

http://www.amptone.com/under20wamps.htm


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## old crow (Aug 17, 2006)

Great list Z....but I don't see Kingsley and it's Canadian :banana: in fact I've been coresponding with Simon and I think I'll have him build me one of his 3 watt amps with an ef-86 ( Vox style ) preamp. Not sure what power tube to go with. He offers 6v6 or el 84. Prb. the el would be a more trad. combo, but I really like 6v6's so ???
His 3 watter comes w/ 12" Celestion. I'll go with that cause I can always easily baffle down to an 8 " later if I find the 12 too loud or bassy.
Here's a link, keep in mind I don't have any affiliation with Kingsley and only recently stumbled across thier amps via TGP.
http://www.kingsleyamplifiers.com/design/design.html


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

old crow said:


> Great list Z....but I don't see Kingsley and it's Canadian :banana: in fact I've been coresponding with Simon and I think I'll have him build me one of his 3 watt amps with an ef-86 ( Vox style ) preamp. Not sure what power tube to go with. He offers 6v6 or el 84. Prb. the el would be a more trad. combo, but I really like 6v6's so ???
> His 3 watter comes w/ 12" Celestion. I'll go with that cause I can always easily baffle down to an 8 " later if I find the 12 too loud or bassy.
> Here's a link, keep in mind I don't have any affiliation with Kingsley and only recently stumbled across thier amps via TGP.
> http://www.kingsleyamplifiers.com/design/design.html


I have a D1, and Simon is a very talented builder. Ask him about the switchable dual single ended mod he did on mine. Be a bit wary of the EF 86 unless you have a good stock of NOS tubes, the new production EF86's are still so so at best. Feel free to PM me if you have questions

Scott


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## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> I just picked up the Orange Tiny Terror. While it is an awesome amp at bedroom levels, I discovered yesterday at practice, that it even gets better as it gets louder. *So, now I have come to a conclusion, it seems, that to get the tones that everyone wants at louder levels, its apparent that you need to get the speakers moving as well*. This must be a big contributing factor......no?
> 
> Anyways, anyone looking for a really cool low wattage amp, do yourself a favor and give the Tiny Terror a try!


I think ne1roc is onto it. Tone and volume are at a certain point inseparable. Your losing tone at extremely low volume because the speaker isn't moving enough to produce it. I don't know if using a less efficient speaker would help but it would at least allow you to run the amp a little higher.

I think using a stomp box as has already been suggested is the cheapest and surest solution.

If you run a fan or something that produces white noise in the room your amp won't _seem_ as loud!


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## amphead (Jan 9, 2007)

Hey Tarbender,

Couple of questions:

I haven't been able to find a post where you describe the sounds/tone that you're after. What's top of the list? Overdriven tones? Distorted tones? Cleans? All of the above?

You mention in one post that you would never take a particular type of amp to a jam or rehearsal. Is that a criteria too? Are you looking for great tone at whisper quiet bedroom volume and a rehearsal amp?

I think answering those questions will give us enough insight to really dial in some recommendations.

Cheers!


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

*low wat amp Sources*

found a site that talks about low wattage amps. www.amptone.com/g112

a few different Low W amps are mentioned. (by the formula 10mW is 1% as loud as 50W; 5W is 50% as loud as 50W)

here are some names to check out:
3W: Clark Lil Bit
Signature 284
AX84 project
1W: Moonlight amp
1/2W or 20mW LXH2 EL84 amp
10mW London Power Studio amp. (these may be kits?)

hope this is useful
cheers
RIFF

according to the article 15W is 70% as loud as 50W
20 = 76% " ""
25 = 81 "" ""
30 = 86% "" "" ""
I kind of wished they had compared to a 100 & 200W amp.Just thought I'd throw some more #'s in.Very interesting comparisons, tubes only I think.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

RIFF WRATH said:


> I kind of wished they had compared to a 100 & 200W amp.Just thought I'd throw some more #'s in.Very interesting comparisons, tubes only I think.


From what I've been reading, I think the main difference would be clean head room. And because of this, it can _cut through_ better. So there is both a modest increase in real volume and perceived volume - am I on the right track ???


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

hi 
i resurrect this thread, because i found that the new fender champion 600 is much less loud- it has a 6 inch speaker, so it sounds small- and it is about 2/3rds the size of valve junior- i shove mine under a shelf- i can leave it at full volume without it bothering anyone- late at night a pillow in front of the speaker and its ok-
at first it was kinda anemic sounding, but as it breaks in its sounding pretty nice for what it is
its cheap- i paid 225$ cdn
i think that it could be tweaked cheaply, once info starts showing up 
it does not distort much as it sits- maybe it will open up more, or maybe it needs some tweaking- but id like just a bit more dirt- 20% more and itd be great


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## Emohawk (Feb 3, 2006)

I often wonder if it's even physically possible to win this battle. There's just so many factors involved. Most of the technical ones have been discussed (driving tubes, speaker movement, etc, etc), but we've missed one very important one.

The human ear.

Our ears hear things differently at different volumes. Much like a speaker cone or a microphone diaphragm, the eardrum moves differently as things get louder. There's a sensitivity curve that has the characteristic "bell" shape you see in any speaker or mike. That's part of the reason attenuators seem to "suck" tone, especially when heavily attenuated. There is the speaker factor also, of course (and other issues), but a lot of it is because at lower volumes we hear less bass & treble and more midrange so the tone sounds "thinner", even though the actual sound reproduced may be very close to how it sounds with more amplification.

And remember this too. You also _feel_ a cranked amp. evilGuitar:


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

torndownunit said:


> Ya that's an option as well. It's a pretty pricey amp too though.
> 
> The new Peavey Windsor Studio that comes out soon has some of the same features. It will also run almost any type of tube. I am looking forward to trying one when they are available.


Anyone have any idea when this one is coming out. I know the head is out but what about the combo???

I want to try one out!!


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

If anyone here could design the best amp for their situation, 8 watts or less, what would it be like?

Combo? Head? Speaker? Circuit? Voice? Controls???


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## GuitaristZ (Jan 26, 2007)

http://www.voxamps.co.uk/heritagecollection/ac15h_head_and_cab.asp

just had to post that there...not exactly 8 watts...but 15 watts isnt so bad. Nice looking handwired vox...wow


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

robert
im thinking that the little champion is pretty much what id build for my home playing/recording- as i said, it could use a bit more dirtiness- but thatll be easy done with a resistor swap or two. i havent seen any schematics of it yet, and wont tear into it until i see one. a resistor costs about 40 cents so its cheaply done.
i had originally intended to build a champ from scratch- then the valve jr came out- its a champ for 150$ lol- but a really loud champ unfortunately.
so i was again gathering parts to build a champ- and i found the new fender, and im happy with it- my purposes are fulfilled
but im still going to build a champ- 
for playing anywhere other than home id like the amp on guitaristz link- but in combo version- im a huge rory gallagher listener, and want to buy every ac30 i see, but its too much amp- id rather make a 15 watter hop around the floor screaming its guts out


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