# power tube/amplifier distortion - a discussion...



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...whenever i listen to one of the greats, whether it be page with zeppelin, or joe bonamassa (okay, i think he's great) or whomever, i am consistently amazed by the overdriven tone they get, a tone that is free from the buzzy/fuzzy/mushy artifacts introduced by most o/d pedals.

i used to get tone like that, back in the 70s. i plugged an sg with p90s straight into an ampeg half stack, and cranked it.

these days, many of us are trying to find a way to get "that tone" at a civilized volume level.

there are pedal recommendations galore, of course. sometimes pre-amp distortion can help, as well as power attenuators/scaling.

i guess the question here is this: what is the state of the art alternative to cranking an already loud tube amp?


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## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

I'm going out on a limb here because I'm no expert, but my answer to your query would be a *good* low wattage amp. I'll leave the definition of *good* up for debate. There are a lot of amp manufacturers today with this goal in mind and in my opinion they are making excellent progress (65 is a great example of this). Problem is they aren't cheap (or inexpensive).


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

david henman said:


> ...whenever i listen to one of the greats, whether it be page with zeppelin, or joe bonamassa (okay, i think he's great) or whomever, i am consistently amazed by the overdriven tone they get, a tone that is free from the buzzy/fuzzy/mushy artifacts introduced by most o/d pedals.
> 
> i used to get tone like that, back in the 70s. i plugged an sg with p90s straight into an ampeg half stack, and cranked it.
> 
> ...


I've tried many, many, many OD pedal and a few attenuators in my time and the best solutions I've found so far are:

1) Ho/Ultimate Attenuator - of all the attenuators I've tried, this one offers the best tone as lower volumes. I regularly use mine to tame my JTM45 for shows and recording and it does a GREAT job of capturing how the amp actually sounds. With this, you're still missing the speaker being pushed really hard, but it's as close as I have come to a cranked amp that won't get me evicted. Every amp I've tried it with sounds fantastic. The ONLY caveat is that the input impedance of 30 ohms is a pretty steep mismatch on some amps. My YGM2 (8ohms out) didn't like the UA as much as my JTM45 (16ohms out). It still sounded great, but the amp was working way too hard and volume suffered. But if you have a 16 ohm out amp, the UA/Ho is tough to beat.

2) Timmy/Z.Vex SHO - Out of all the pedals I've tried over the last few years, this combo gives me the absolute best tone when it comes to overdrive. Most of the time, I use the Timmy for overdrive and the SHO for lead boosts, but I've tried it the other way around and had great success that way too. In some regards, the SHO pushing an amp is better than the Timmy, but it's also louder. I used to set my YGM at around 3-4 on the volume, which is right where it started to break-up and use the SHO to push it to overdrive, then set the Timmy to clean boost for leads. Sounded amazing. Using it the other way around, I'd set the YGM around 2 or so, use the Timmy for overdrive (volume at unity or wherever I needed it, gain up a good amount - usually 3pm) and then use the SHO for lead boosts. Again, sounded amazing.

3) Z.Vex Box of Rock - It's been a while since I used this pedal, but I remember it through my YGL3 as an absolute monster. The Distortron engine gave awesome Marshall sounds and the modified SHO side was great as well. Not as good on it's own as the actual SHO, but it provides an amazing amount of output. Also a bonus, the channels were independent, so you could use the distortron side or the SHO side independently or cascade them together.

With pedals, I always find that the amp has to be in a good spot as it is. If it's just barely up and then you slam an OD pedal in front, it doesn't sound as good as if you have an amp that's on the verge of breakup (or past it) and then you hit it with a pedal. Unfortunately, this means that to get the ideal sound, you're still too loud for "civilized" volume levels, so the UA/Ho is the be-all-end-all for me in terms of a tool to get your tone at any volume level. I still have my Timmy (3rd one now!) and SHO to do what I need them to do just in case, but the UA is what I use most. I can bring it down to quieter-speaking-voice and it still sounds pretty good, so that works for me.

However, none of these are state-of-the-art. For that kinda funky techno-stuff, you might want to look into the AxeFX units, or something similar, like maybe the new POD HD series.


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## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

The only overdrive pedal I have left is a Pearl unit from the early 80's. It's a 3 transistor style like the Tube Screamer. I have a FET Dream but I don't really consider that to be an overdrive on the level of the Pearl, more like something between a boost and an overdrive. Both do a very nice job but as Hollowbody mentioned the amp needs to be in the right spot. I think these days there's too much emphasis on high gain amp designs.

Another nice pedal I have is the Don Butler Rangemaster clone. Gooses the front end nicely.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...thanks, hollowbody. extremely close to a definitive response.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Swervin55 said:


> I'm going out on a limb here because I'm no expert, but my answer to your query would be a *good* low wattage amp. I'll leave the definition of *good* up for debate. There are a lot of amp manufacturers today with this goal in mind and in my opinion they are making excellent progress (65 is a great example of this). Problem is they aren't cheap (or inexpensive).


...at this point, price is irrelevant, especially given the amount of money i have invested in pedals.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

david henman said:


> ...at this point, price is irrelevant, especially given the amount of money i have invested in pedals.


The 65 Amps Lil Elvis looks like a really good amp that you can crank up and it probably has enough under the hood to be gig-worthy.

I tried a Vox AC4 the other day and was surprised by how good it sounded cranked up. As a grab and go, it could honestly work in a band, but you'd probably have to mic it up. I'm debating buying one for myself to see how I like it.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

i personally love the little night train at lower volumes. it has some really nice tones coming from it


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## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

I apologize in advance if I'm regurgitating well known information, but the whole pretense behind 65 amps was Cheryl Crow's frustration at having to scream over Marshall stacks. This led Peter Stroud and Dan Boul to design and build and amp that would do the Marshall thing but a lower volumes. If I understand your OP, this is what you're after. After a few years and many designs under their belt, they now have a wide variety of approaches to accomplish this (Vox, Marshall, Fender voicings, master volumes etc.). I have a SoHo head and 212, our other guitar player has a Royal Albert head and 212 as well as a L'il Elvis. Not trying to pump 65 here and have no affiliation other than owning one, but I can't say enough about their performance.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Swervin55 said:


> I apologize in advance if I'm regurgitating well known information, but the whole pretense behind 65 amps was Cheryl Crow's frustration at having to scream over Marshall stacks. This led Peter Stroud and Dan Boul to design and build and amp that would do the Marshall thing but a lower volumes. If I understand your OP, this is what you're after. After a few years and many designs under their belt, they now have a wide variety of approaches to accomplish this (Vox, Marshall, Fender voicings, master volumes etc.). I have a SoHo head and 212, our other guitar player has a Royal Albert head and 212 as well as a L'il Elvis. Not trying to pump 65 here and have no affiliation other than owning one, but I can't say enough about their performance.


I actually didn't know about the back story, so thanks for sharing!

They certainly seem like they're really great amps and I'd love to get my hands on one at some point.


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

One thing I found that lets loud amps be driven into power tube distortion at lower volumes are the THD Yellowjackets. I run a pair in my '74 Orange OR 80, with EL84s and it breaks up really good at much lower volumes than when it ran its original pair of EL34s. Supposed to cut wattage to about 40%. Also supposedly changes the output of Class AB amps to Class A, but not sure if this is actually true.


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## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

This gives an insight into 65's beginnings and their mission. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XT-9HGNjIQ&feature=related


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

washburned said:


> One thing I found that lets loud amps be driven into power tube distortion at lower volumes are the THD Yellowjackets. I run a pair in my '74 Orange OR 80, with EL84s and it breaks up really good at much lower volumes than when it ran its original pair of EL34s. Supposed to cut wattage to about 40%. Also supposedly changes the output of Class AB amps to Class A, but not sure if this is actually true.


I tried those in my YGL3 and my JTM45, but wasn't a big fan of them. Yes, it cuts power down, but I also found they dramatically altered the tone and feel of the amp, which makes sense, because your EL34/6L6 etc amp is now an EL84 amp, which sounds completely different to my ears.

It works in a pinch, but for me, there's better solutions.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There are low-tech solutions as well. For example, there are numerous "muffled cabs" out there, where a celestion 12, or whatever your weapon of choice is, sits in a closed box and a mic is pointed at it. Nothing comes out of the box except for what the mic hears.

Another solution is something like the Garnet/Bachman Herzog, which is essentially a Champ, modded to feed a second amp.

There ARE modellers in abundance, but I haven't worked with any enough to know, or offer an opiion, whether they capture the dynamic changes to tone resulting from pick attack, # strings, etc.

Personally, I am partial to invertor-based overdrives. These use CMOS chips in linear mode. Examples would be the Way Huge Red Llama, the original EHX Hot Tubes (resurrected in the Snarling Dogs Tweedy Dog), and Blackstone overdrive. These have a nice grunt to them that's very amp-like.

Runoffgroove is a website with a wide array of projects that are essentially attempts to emulate tube amps via FETs. ( http://www.runoffgroove.com/ ) They posted a wide array of soundclips, so I let you draw your own conclusions.

At the DIY stompbox forum, we've had many discussions about whether simply duplicating everything up to the power stage by replacing tubes with FETs "captures" such amps. I think the consensus is that they are a) musically valid even if they aren't absolutely accurate, and b) more representative of the front end than of what happens once you go past the phase-splitter stage. None of them attempts to implement or simulate output transformer distortion, although many will make some attempt to emulate speaker resonances and rolloffs.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...taking a serious look at the 65 amps lil elvis.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

i don't have anything fancy for an amp...i have the traynor YCS50 head...but i run it at 15W into a 2x12 closed back cab...the 15W, running through the clean channel on the british setting, i can get some real nice crunch, power tube tone that is still at a reasonable volume


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I vote crank the amp


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

Powerscaled amps have been the best solution for me. If I have to play quietly through a cleaner amp, I use one of my Mad Professor pedals (Sweet Honey Overdrive or Little Green Wonder).

When I'm using my Stephenson amp (powerscaled) amp, I rarely feel the need to kick in an overdrive pedal.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

I just watched that video on the 65 Amps Lil' Elvis and they actually do "Master voltage" which is the same idea as Power Scaling and VVR (which I ALWAYS use)

I installed VVR (variable voltage regulator) on all my amps 50 watts or less. I really prefer the distortion of non-master volume amps, and so the VVR knob becomes my Master Volume but in the sense of the term that means ACTUALLY turning down the volume, and not the usual Master Volume definition of turning down the tone.
Anyways, my life would be misery without it. It controls the amount of DC on the B+ rail so that it essentially retains the original tone. You can also insert it to only vary the B+ voltage for the power tubes and not scale the entire amp. I've heard that people that have existing PPIMVs installed often prefer this, but I always scale the entire amp in order to maintain the original balance of the non MV amp.
Anyways, I find it works much better than most attenuators. The Ultimate or Ho Attenuator probably sounds just as good, but costs 10 times the price. 
Also, I like VVR because it greatly increases tube life running them at lower B+ voltages.

This is the kit:
http://www.hallamplification.com/main.html?src=/#2,2
So, it is $30 for cathode biased amps and $50 for fixed biased amps.

Video examples?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Mta_unZSCo
Here's an idea of how the VVR works with my DC30 (removed Master Volume and put VVR in its stead):
Epiphone Dot with 4 heavy chords:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42R1uajFJnY
Light and heavy picking on a P90 in the neck of a Tele:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ppDAoTQVgI
The power was full first (and deafeningly loud-although the camera mic was set to take high spl so seems rather quiet). But then I turn down to about 1/3 voltage, which gets significantly quieter with the same tone. Sorry, nothing fancy in either video, with the channel volume set to go from clean to just more than breaking up with strumming strength. 
To give an idea, the 1/3 voltage is probably roughly below small bar gig volume, but you just turn the pot to where you want it.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

To echo some of what hollowbody said . . .


The absolute best I have heard also involves a Timmy set to low gain. For more dirt, I run a Fairfield Barbershop (sag down) into the Timmy. This combo is ASTONISHING! I have directly compared it to my vintage amps and was schocked.

Before you buy a new amp or get into mods or attenuators you must check out this combo.

Best part is that you can buy BOTH pedals new for less than $300 combined!

TG


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Good topic!

I have been starting to minimize my gear for many reasons mostly hearing related so this is timely.
My clean bass amp has been put to use with my distortion pedals into a 1-12 guitar cab just to experiment. Overall I have had good luck but I think the key is within more of a preamp pedal than a distortion pedal.

The moddler route I have tried but I found them to complex and expensive for home use.
Even these required the power amp to be in a sweet spot which I think has more to do with the speaker than the actual electronics. If the speaker is not moving then its not going to perform reguardless of its input. Smaller speakers may work better for low volume but I like the tones of a 12 so will stick with that.


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## amphead (Jan 9, 2007)

David - what is the objective that you are after? Are you looking for an amp with which to record in the studio? A live gigging amp that will provide power tube distortion at less volume than a cranked 100 watt Marsall? An amp for playing at home at midnight? Depending on what you are looking to do the answer to questions changes!

Don Mackrill
www.MackAmps.com


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...the 65 amps lil elvis seems to be the amp i'm looking for. i think 12 watts might be just about right. fx loop. i like the tremolo circuit, but that's not a dire necessity. but it is quite expensive - $1,850 for the head!

i think this would cover gigs, recordings, rehearsals..


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

david henman said:


> ...the 65 amps lil elvis seems to be the amp i'm looking for. i think 12 watts might be just about right. fx loop. i like the tremolo circuit, but that's not a dire necessity. but it is quite expensive - $1,850 for the head!
> 
> i think this would cover gigs, recordings, rehearsals..


I thought it was pricey too, but honestly, the $$$ you'll save taking a loss on buying and selling things that don't work may turn it into a wash. I'd be willing to pay top dollar for an amp that I can reliably crank up and get what I want out of. Of course, having said that, I don't actually _have_ top dollar 

I'd love to find one of these and give'r a go. I know someone sold one in the emporium not that long ago and the price was much more reasonable than $1800, but I bet they don't pop up used all that often. Maybe on TGP.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

david henman said:


> ...the 65 amps lil elvis seems to be the amp i'm looking for. i think 12 watts might be just about right. fx loop. i like the tremolo circuit, but that's not a dire necessity. but it is quite expensive - $1,850 for the head!
> 
> i think this would cover gigs, recordings, rehearsals..


I thought it was pricey too, but honestly, the $$$ you'll save taking a loss on buying and selling things that don't work may turn it into a wash. I'd be willing to pay top dollar for an amp that I can reliably crank up and get what I want out of. Of course, having said that, I don't actually _have_ top dollar 

I'd love to find one of these and give'r a go. I know someone sold one in the emporium not that long ago and the price was much more reasonable than $1800, but I bet they don't pop up used all that often. Maybe on TGP.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i'll probably try to arrange financing with a retail store. coming up with that kind of cash is probably not an option.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I just spend a few hours trying to get a good smooth overdriven sound out of a whack of Roland digital effects (contained in the DAW), we decided that we are going to try the '71 Pro Reverb, cranked next. Going to try my G-Dec too. But I am thinking the amp, cranked and mic'd will be the one.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Seriously, Timmy and Barbershop as noted above. I've tried almost every attenuator out there (including both versions of the Aracom) and this pedal combo is better. OTOH, a low watt amp may be amazing but if you need a decent amount of clean headroom you won't get it with a 12 watt amp.

TG


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

traynor_garnet said:


> Seriously, Timmy and Barbershop as noted above. I've tried almost every attenuator out there (including both versions of the Aracom) and this pedal combo is better. OTOH, a low watt amp may be amazing but if you need a decent amount of clean headroom you won't get it with a 12 watt amp.
> TG


...i dunno...i'm getting way more clean headroom than i could ever use with my 15-watt traynor combo (ycv15blue). 

i appreciate your advice re timmy and barbershop, and will definitely investigate that approach.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i hear ya! i spend hundreds annually experimenting with pedals.



hollowbody said:


> I thought it was pricey too, but honestly, the $$$ you'll save taking a loss on buying and selling things that don't work may turn it into a wash. I'd be willing to pay top dollar for an amp that I can reliably crank up and get what I want out of. Of course, having said that, I don't actually _have_ top dollar
> 
> I'd love to find one of these and give'r a go. I know someone sold one in the emporium not that long ago and the price was much more reasonable than $1800, but I bet they don't pop up used all that often. Maybe on TGP.


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## ThePass (Aug 10, 2007)

You can get GREAT tube amps from Carvin with GREAT prices.........I have the Vintage 16 which switches between 5 and 16W and is all tube......I plug straight into it and it sounds great, IMO.

But I use it for practice and small jams.

My live rig has the Visual Sound Jekell & Hyde O/D ~ Distortion pedal, and it's okay.....I'm sure if my Lotto Max #'s come up I could find better, but I landed this as a cheap deal....it works.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i'm really curious about the carvin v3.



ThePass said:


> You can get GREAT tube amps from Carvin with GREAT prices.........I have the Vintage 16 which switches between 5 and 16W and is all tube......I plug straight into it and it sounds great, IMO.
> 
> But I use it for practice and small jams.
> 
> My live rig has the Visual Sound Jekell & Hyde O/D ~ Distortion pedal, and it's okay.....I'm sure if my Lotto Max #'s come up I could find better, but I landed this as a cheap deal....it works.


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## ThePass (Aug 10, 2007)

david henman said:


> ...i'm really curious about the carvin v3.


This is the one for me........switchable from 50 giggable watts to 5!

Can't be beat.

http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/single.php?product=V3M


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I prefer the punch of my mesa in 100W mode vs. 50W personally. YMMV with the whole switchable wattage thing


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Budda said:


> I prefer the punch of my mesa in 100W mode vs. 50W personally. YMMV with the whole switchable wattage thing


That depends more on the amp than anything. I'm assuming you're already on the overdrive channel of your amp. I think the OP was asking more about amps that are single-channel in nature, or taking the clean channel of a tube amp into saturation.


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

Great question: find a utility grade 15 watt vintage amp ie a traynor guitar mate 

play around with the pre amp to get a tonal range you like ie strip some of the bass out and tune the eq network 
find and remove the .001 cap on the volume control & the .1 presence cap in the power secton 

get a great guitar speaker 

then rebuild the powersupply very carefully and after the first B+ filter which you can go as high as 100mfd 
underfilter the rest of the stages 
done right you will have a small combo that sounds like a fender tweed or cranked plexi marshall

spend all your time experimenting with the power supply till you get the right combination of headrom and tweed deluxe style saturation 

you will then have a smooth natural distortion tone

http://youtu.be/hLhGeU4wb2U

you can do this stuff with any amp 

ie a deluxe reverb, princeton or tweed deluxe 

tweed deluxe change the first coupling cap to .02 
& get a bigger output transformer & better speaker for headroom the power supply is already compromised 

Deluxe reverb 

change the .1 and 047 in the tone controls to .02 caps 
blackface the amp if it's a later one &use 16 mfd filters just like blackface version
you can upgrade the OT as well 

princeton 
swap the OT to the deluxe type item 
& the tone caps to .02's 
and use a better speaker 


p


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## CSBen (Mar 1, 2011)

There are so many variables that to list them all would take quite a while!

Here’s my 2cents about it.

A high quality amp, with quality circuitry will be a purchase you will not regret. I have Dr. Z Amps. My go-to monster is a Maz 18Nr w/ convertible 2x10 speakers. I will not go into why Z’s are IMHO in the top 3 builder out-there, that’s a whole other discussion for another day! The other one in there is Dan @ 65amps. Top notch company and great guy. I’ve been emailing back and forth with Dan as I had a few questions for him and he’s been great to talk too. Excellent service from both Mike and Dan.

Power Tubes..El34, 84’s, 6v6, 6l6, KT-66, etc…they are all so different in so many ways. Really depends on what sound you’re after. 

Rectifier – tube or SS. If tube, there are quite a few choices available to you, each one having different efficiency, allowing earlier or later break up and compression.

Next in line, but perhaps most important one: your speaker choice! Take a 1x12 cab with a Celestion Blue in it, rated at what 15w & 100 dB and you’ll have yourself a speaker that’ll break up early. Or choose a much higher efficiency speaker like a V30, rated at 60w and 100dB also and it’ll be a totally different cab. My 2x10 cab is rated 140w total, as the two speakers are 70w each. If it'd be two Blue in there, it'd be quite different.

Single coils…humbuckers…vintage low winds…hot pu's…arg!!!! Just too much to cover, but my point still stands. If you want guitar-to-cord-to-amp OD, a quality amp w/ appropritate speaker choice is the way to go.

Cheers
Ben


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## Lance Romance (Jun 4, 2009)

David, if even the 15 Blue is too much, maybe look at a used Suhr Badger or something with real power scaling. I love that amp, and you and I share similar tastes in Tone.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Lance Romance said:


> David, if even the 15 Blue is too much, maybe look at a used Suhr Badger or something with real power scaling. I love that amp, and you and I share similar tastes in Tone.


...its on my wishlist, eric:

suhr badger
traynor iron horse
mesa-boogie transatlantic 30
carvin v3
65 amps lil elvis
egnater tweaker

based on youtube clips, the lil elvis is leading the pack. probably try and match it with a traynor dark horse or vox night train speaker cab - both have a celestion greenback, i think.


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## CSBen (Mar 1, 2011)

Once you've tried the Suhr and the 65amps lil elvis (or any of them), your list will be done!

The build quality of these two companies is second to none. The comparison with amps like the Egnater is just not fair.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

CSBen said:


> Once you've tried the Suhr and the 65amps lil elvis (or any of them), your list will be done!
> The build quality of these two companies is second to none. The comparison with amps like the Egnater is just not fair.


...i'm not suprised to hear that. i'm going to audition the lil elvis at boutique tone in montreal at easter. hopefully they stock the badger, as well.

i already have a really good amp (traynor ycv15blue), so i'm looking forward to experiencing 'extraordinary'.


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

Don't Boutique Tone have a Toronto store now?


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## CSBen (Mar 1, 2011)

david henman said:


> ...i'm not suprised to hear that. i'm going to audition the lil elvis at boutique tone in montreal at easter. hopefully they stock the badger, as well.
> 
> i already have a really good amp (traynor ycv15blue), so i'm looking forward to experiencing 'extraordinary'.


Jeremy is a real great guy to deal with. I do believe that he stocks the Badger 18 and 30. 

My prefered 65amp was the Monterey (6v6) - killer amp. The London, can't go wrong. I have not tried the Empire, but from the weekly webcast with Dan, it really seems like a great amp.

Swarts are awesome, awsome amps.

If you're looking to spend a tad more - check out the CarolAnn.

And last but not least, do check out the Dr.Z amps - can't beat those.


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## CSBen (Mar 1, 2011)

washburned said:


> Don't Boutique Tone have a Toronto store now?


I do not believe so no - unless it has just opened!

Wouldn't be a bad thing for Toronto as I don't believe there's any store of that level correct?


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

I was thinking of Moog Audio...they have a good selection of high end stuff, but not 65 amps.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

CSBen said:


> And last but not least, do check out the Dr.Z amps - can't beat those.


...perhaps this one should go on my wishlist:

http://www.drzamps.com/amp/maz18jrnr/


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## amphead (Jan 9, 2007)

http://www.mackamps.com/products-Heatseeker-HS18/

Don Mackrill
www.MackAmps.com


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## amphead (Jan 9, 2007)

EDIT - Deleted duplicate post. Must have hit reply twice!

Don Mackrill
www.MackAmps.com


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## CSBen (Mar 1, 2011)

david henman said:


> ...perhaps this one should go on my wishlist:
> 
> http://www.drzamps.com/amp/maz18jrnr/


I've had one for two years now, with the convertible 2x10 cabinet and it's been tonal-bliss since then. Absolutely LOVE that amp.

There are so many great amp builders out there, it can be a real headache to choose 1 amp from all of them! My vote still does go to Zs, especially the Maz. Come check out the discussion on the Ztalk forum.

Good luck in your search : )

Ben


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## Fader (Mar 10, 2009)

amphead said:


> http://www.mackamps.com/products-Heatseeker-HS18/
> 
> Don Mackrill
> www.MackAmps.com


I have to say that Macks are great amps and excellent value. Don is just a super guy to deal with.

My Skyraider (6V6s) produces very warm, smooth, and musical distortion with very little fuzz or buzz. I'm using my overdrive pedals less and less because I just want to hear only the guitar and the amp.


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## Vox71 (Mar 25, 2008)

david henman said:


> ...i'm not suprised to hear that. i'm going to audition the lil elvis at boutique tone in montreal at easter. hopefully they stock the badger, as well.
> 
> i already have a really good amp (traynor ycv15blue), so i'm looking forward to experiencing 'extraordinary'.


Hey Dave, don't Gear Music in Oakville have a 'Lil Elvis in stock? A little closer than Montreal. Also, if you are ever up in the Alliston area you could always stop by my place, and try out the 'Lil Elvis. I have a 'Lil Elvis combo, and it is the best amp I have ever owned. I absolutely love it, and can't say enough good things about it. I swapped out the stock speaker for a Celestion Blue alnico. It sounds amazing very versatile, and as discussed sounds great cranked or at low volumes

Cheers,
Alfie


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...true, alfie, that is probably where i will go to purchase the amp (IF they offer financing).

but i'm visiting family in montreal easter weekend, and i also need to visit boutique tone in order to check these out:

www.henmanguitars.com


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i've chatted with don, and i am very intrigued by his amps but, alas, no fx loop.



Fader said:


> I have to say that Macks are great amps and excellent value. Don is just a super guy to deal with.
> 
> My Skyraider (6V6s) produces very warm, smooth, and musical distortion with very little fuzz or buzz. I'm using my overdrive pedals less and less because I just want to hear only the guitar and the amp.


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## CSBen (Mar 1, 2011)

How much were you looking to spend for a new or used amp David? Preferences towards combo or head&cab setup?

I think you're after the British flavours, but any particuliar power section is of interest? EL-84/34? Or more towards the American 6L6/6V6? 

Fx Loop - check!


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

Personally, I think a lot of the tonality comes from the speakers rather than the power amp.

For instance, I've run various amps into V30 loaded 4x12, and even a 100w Plexi with the volumes on 8 wasn't giving up what I'd call "power tube overdrive". I mean, it sounded good... but it didn't have that old school character to it. I found it sounded remarkably similar to many other preamp gain/master volume amps with the volume turned way up.

However, if I plug pretty much anything into a G12M-25 I get that old school tone quite easily, even when running an amp well below it's peak output. I think the natural clone breakup and the harmonics that come with it are a big part of the equation, and you don't necessarily need to drive the piss out of that speaker to achieve it. It probably helps that the G12M-25 is a somewhat inefficient speaker itself, which lets you goose the volume just a little bit more than you could with a louder speaker.

Long story short... I feel that it's important to consider the entire signal path... guitar to amp to speaker to speaker enclosure... without focusing on any one part of the signal path as the "holy grail" that'll solve all your issues.


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## CSBen (Mar 1, 2011)

Absolutely right Screamingdaisy.

I can't recall in which thread it was, but I had also mentioned the same thing - speaker choice and speaker efficiency is a big key part in the quest for that "tone" we each personally are looking for.

I've never used the g12M-25 myself, but have heard good things about it.

Cheers
Ben


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## CSBen (Mar 1, 2011)

david henman said:


> ...true, alfie, that is probably where i will go to purchase the amp (IF they offer financing).
> 
> but i'm visiting family in montreal easter weekend, and i also need to visit boutique tone in order to check these out:
> 
> www.henmanguitars.com


David - seeing you are looking at the Henman guitars and abviously like the body shape, have you considered looking into the Don Grosh guitars? IMHO, Don is putting out there some of the best built guitars you can let your hands on. 

I think you'd really like the ElectraJet model.

The only thing I never liked with the Henman was the headstock design. Other than that, they are also a really high quality piece there's no question about it. Thought perhaps I'd pitch in another suggestion : )

Cheers
Ben


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...any guitar that has my name on the headstock warrants close inspection, methinks!



CSBen said:


> David - seeing you are looking at the Henman guitars and abviously like the body shape, have you considered looking into the Don Grosh guitars? IMHO, Don is putting out there some of the best built guitars you can let your hands on.
> 
> I think you'd really like the ElectraJet model.
> 
> ...


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i don't know, anymore. i've always loved that legendary fender clean sound, but i was less than thrilled with the hot rod deluxe and blues jr when i owned them. my last two amps have been traynor. the ycv40wr used 6L6s. and it sounded great. but i seem to be gravitating to EL84s (YCV15BLUE) and british flavours, for some reason. at least, i "think" i am. i probably don't know the difference. and now i'm curious about screamingdaisy's appraisal of the G12M-25.




CSBen said:


> How much were you looking to spend for a new or used amp David? Preferences towards combo or head&cab setup?
> 
> I think you're after the British flavours, but any particuliar power section is of interest? EL-84/34? Or more towards the American 6L6/6V6?
> 
> Fx Loop - check!


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## CSBen (Mar 1, 2011)

david henman said:


> ...any guitar that has my name on the headstock warrants close inspection, methinks!


LOL!

I hadn't even noticed that. You may be entitled to a good discount ; )


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## CSBen (Mar 1, 2011)

david henman said:


> ...i don't know, anymore. i've always loved that legendary fender clean sound, but i was less than thrilled with the hot rod deluxe and blues jr when i owned them. my last two amps have been traynor. the ycv40wr used 6L6s. and it sounded great. but i seem to be gravitating to EL84s (YCV15BLUE) and british flavours, for some reason. at least, i "think" i am. i probably don't know the difference. and now i'm curious about screamingdaisy's appraisal of the G12M-25.


I think you'll be thrilled with the Z Maz Jr NR (non-reverb model) and the Lil Elvis, though the Fx Loops on the Lil' Elvis is an option I believe.

I am sure you'd be able to hear the differences between an EL-84 and a 6L6. There are things that one can that the other can't, and vise versa, but they do cross paths. Obviously the circuit design will have a lot to do with it. I don't know Traynor amps - not at all actually, so I am in no position to compare the 3 companies. I can tell you however that either of the Maz or Lil Elvis will blow the HRD and Blues Jr right out of the water - it's not even a fair comparison, especially with the Maz (IMHO).

Good luck over the weekend at BoutiqueTone & make sure you put a limit on you bank card or you may just empty it all in one afternoon!!


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...would it be fair to ask you (or anyone) to describe the essential difference in tone between EL84S and 6L6S?




CSBen said:


> I think you'll be thrilled with the Z Maz Jr NR (non-reverb model) and the Lil Elvis, though the Fx Loops on the Lil' Elvis is an option I believe.
> 
> I am sure you'd be able to hear the differences between an EL-84 and a 6L6. There are things that one can that the other can't, and vise versa, but they do cross paths. Obviously the circuit design will have a lot to do with it. I don't know Traynor amps - not at all actually, so I am in no position to compare the 3 companies. I can tell you however that either of the Maz or Lil Elvis will blow the HRD and Blues Jr right out of the water - it's not even a fair comparison, especially with the Maz (IMHO).
> 
> Good luck over the weekend at BoutiqueTone & make sure you put a limit on you bank card or you may just empty it all in one afternoon!!


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## CSBen (Mar 1, 2011)

david henman said:


> ...would it be fair to ask you (or anyone) to describe the essential difference in tone between EL84S and 6L6S?


Very quickly..and a very crude way to look at it - tone wise - would be to consider EL84 to be of British flavour, whereas 6L6 to be American flavoured tubes. The differences? 

Tough question is there ever was one when you don't consider the amp design (voicing, preamp, a pair or quad in the power section), speaker used, etc. I would be tempted in only saying that EL84 are glassier, sparklier sounding tubes, with great low-end (again when used in a well designed amp). An overall brighter tubes typically and that will break up into OD quicker than say a 6L6. A pair of EL-84 Vs a pair of 6L6 will yield a big difference in the amp power output, but more importanly, the headroom available. Why these work SO well in the 18w design and in a quad setup, in the AC30 type design amp. Why they are labelled or thought of as heavier rock tubes I don't know. There are alot of builders out there using EL84 in their amp design that yield some killer clean tones.

6L6 is the typical high headroom, Fender-like clean tones. Less "gain" than the EL84, so they will give up the OD much later and at a much louder spl level. Darker than most EL84s. They have typically great bottom end also. Some will say it's THE tube for country and blues. I honestly and fully dissagree with that. Some great Blues player and Country players are using EL84 based amp. 

Tube constructions are completely different also. Voltage capacities between the two are quite difference also. Used in cathode-biased or not makes a difference also. EL84 are mostly used in cathode-biased amp (meaning you can swap power tube out as you wish - for the same type of course) where as 6L6 are mostly used in fixed-bias as again their construction is different (tetrode not a pentode). 

One thing is for sure - you WILL hear and recongnise the differences in tone between amps designed with EL-84 and 6L6.

Then throw in there EL-34...6V6...KT-66..and it's a whole other discussion.

Again - refer to me comment above...a very quick and crude way to put it if there ever was one.

Cheers
Ben


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