# Goodbye Koch. Hello Axe-Fx.



## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

And how quickly things change. I got a good offer on the Koch from a super nice guy up visiting from Toronto. Humber grad who was really digging on the hi-fi clean tones the Koch produced and the nice, compact size -- he was killing these nice dissonant jazz lines on a headless Steinberger when he came over to try it out.

He took it away. I have no doubt he'll be making great music with it. Always nice when your gear moves on to a good home.

And today I picked up an Axe-Fx. And so I am back where I started. Back to technologies of my very first beginner rig: solid state and digital. They've come a long way in the past 16 years. A looooong way. Clips to flow. Tonight Ian gets to play. :smile:

*Edit: I'm pretty sure the gentleman I bought the Axe-Fx off is a forum member...if you are and you want to confirm my suspicion let me know via PM or a post here and I'll make sure to put a big +1 in the deal thread for you. That was truly a pleasant transaction.*


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## passenger (Feb 10, 2006)

congrats on the axe-fx!
Do record some clips plz. I've been longing for one but didn't get a chance to put my hands on em...


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Nice!

What or how are you going to use it..Amp, powered monitor?
A tube power amp will be best from what I have read..

Bev


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

passenger said:


> Do record some clips plz. I've been longing for one but didn't get a chance to put my hands on em...


I've had some serious lust for this thing since it came out. I've used modelers all along with great results. Even recording my Koch and Boogie's direct I'd touch up the sounds with modeled cabs and mics in post-production.

In short: this thing is everything they say it is.

I know I'm honeymooning here but I've got some decent perspective on modeling technology, from the early RP1000 and GT-6 stuff right up to the current GuitarRig (I run GR2 in my home studio) and the stuff from Waves (check it out: free for a year!).

Where it really excels is with low volume signals. In digital sampling this is something that's easy to get right if you spend the money on an A/D that has a top notch dithering algorithm and high resolution. The Axe-Fx's A/D has the right A/D in it.

When you roll down your volume the signal doesn't get glitchy. The A/D is able to sample even the lowest volume levels on my guitars with incredible good fidelity and resolution. Just a hair above off and I can hear a very well defined signal when I monitor the output at a high volume. Why is that a big deal you ask? Because it means the amp models can be programmed to respond amazingly well to volume changes. In other modelers I've used anything but full-on guitar signal started to fall apart. They didn't do what tube amps do: they didn't clean up as you rolled off your volume, they just got weird. The Axe-Fx does what a tube amp does so well it's scary.

So before I gush to much I will say it's not perfect. The company is a little slow delivering on things that I think are key when using complicated modelers: software. There's a third-party software package in the works now and they've got a beta but I couldn't get it to work on my Mac. It wouldn't find the Axe-Fx. And the thing doesn't have USB for computer connectivity -- it's MIDI-only -- which is a tad 1990. I think their software support woes would have been simplified with a USB-MIDI bridge. And the keys on the unit feel wrong to me. I would have preferred buttons with better tactile feedback.



Bevo said:


> What or how are you going to use it..Amp, powered monitor? tube power amp will be best from what I have read..


This is a pretty divisive part of this technology. The FRFR and Tube Amp + Guitar Cabs people are pretty divided. One of the things that attracted me to this was the weight. So I'm leaning towards a lower power FRFR monitor for me and running FOH if I play live. Specifically I'm looking at picking up an FBT Verve 8ma. For what I'm doing right now (Duran Duran Tribute) this is going to be used for personal monitoring only and I think that'll fit the bill. That's the right balance between power and weight/size. The 12ma is supposed to just _kill_ but they're big bi-amped beasts that I shudder when I think about hauling around.

Until I sort that out I'll just run straight into the PA with the keyboard player at rehearsal. Before I buy anything else I want to make sure this is the right thing for me. I'm running my Loopholic as a MIDI controller now and my FV-500 for expression control. I don't want to purge any more gear to build up the Axe-Fx setup unless I'm 100% certain this is the way to go for me.

I should also mention: it takes pedals very well. Specifically, it takes Mark Hammer's crazy fuzz pedals very well. Which surprised the heck out of me. I thought those fuzzes would melt its front end, but nope. As long as you don't clip the front end input they sound just as great as they did into the Koch.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

All reports I've heard are pointing to the Fractal as the next step.

I've been using Vox Tonelabs for awhile and have been happy with them but if the Axe FX is as good as people say, the Tonelab may be obsolete.


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

Milkman said:


> All reports I've heard are pointing to the Fractal as the next step.
> 
> I've been using Vox Tonelabs for awhile and have been happy with them but if the Axe FX is as good as people say, the Tonelab may be obsolete.


As I was posting that last night I was wondering, "I wonder if Milkman has tried one yet..."

I've got to say: it's a pity a big store like L&M or Steve's hasn't picked these up for distribution because it's an awful lot of cash to outlay just to try it out and see if it's going to meet your needs. Especially when you start to consider you need a MIDI controller, expression pedals...it adds up fast. I'm going to have to purge more gear to afford a really slick controller so I'm treading cautiously here. Don't want gear selling regrets.

It also means a lot more cash to outlay if you want redundancy when gigging. A redundant Axe-Fx in the rack is a hefty cost to bear. Of course...you could carry the Tonelab as the back up. I'm going to have to come up with something if this Duran Duran thing takes off. Right now I've got nada to fall back on.

I think I really need to get on organzing the "amp fest" in Ottawa. So I can try Brennan's Polaris and the Axe-Fx can get used by an audience. If you're ever in town, hit me up and we can work out a time for you to try it. We may not see eye to eye on everything, but you're still a top notch guy in my book. :smile:

Tonight I'm going to try dialing in my own presets from scratch. Creating them from the ground up to cover the Duran Duran stuff. That'll be the real test of whether I can live with it or not. Especially since the software editor isn't working for me. It means I'm sitting in front of the little screen. See if it gets tedious or not.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

iaresee said:


> I'm going to have to come up with something if this *Duran Duran* thing takes off.



Never mind the AxeFx, do you have the hair right ?


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

bagpipe said:


> Never mind the AxeFx, do you have the hair right ?


Yes Iaresee, the audience won't know what you've got cooking under the hood, but if you get the hair right they won't care. :smile:


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

I've been using the Axe Fx for 2 years now. It is incredible but I have not been able to make the switch from amp to Axe Fx for gigs? In fact, I added two amps to my lineup over that time frame. 

Everytime I plug into the Axe, I ask myself why am I still using an amp. Then after a few weeks with the Axe, I plug back into my amp and I hear something that is missing with the Axe?


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

I'm growing out the back as we speak. ;-)

We're not at the point where we're ready to talk stage show yet, but I doubt we'll model a particular era of Duran Duran. It'll like be nice suits. Similar to what they're wearing now for the RCM tour, but minus all the blood.



bagpipe said:


> Never mind the AxeFx, do you have the hair right ?


bagpipe: worth noting that this flys in the face of my "I can't do cover bands" thing, eh? Lets see if I can keep my commitment and interest up for this to take off!


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## Guest (Jul 2, 2009)

ne1roc said:


> I've been using the Axe Fx for 2 years now. It is incredible but I have not been able to make the switch from amp to Axe Fx for gigs? In fact, I added two amps to my lineup over that time frame.
> 
> Everytime I plug into the Axe, I ask myself why am I still using an amp. Then after a few weeks with the Axe, I plug back into my amp and I hear something that is missing with the Axe?


There's a place for everything. No doubt I'll be building up the amps again in a few years. I'll find out I want something grab-and-go and that'll mean I need an amp with a few knobs. :smile:

One thing I forgot to mention: the other thing that really amazed me, rolling through the factory presets using headphones for monitoring, was the amount of sustain the higher gain patches had without a physical feedback loop present between the guitar and the modeler. The sustain and the decay were surprisingly nice. I can't wait to try it with a monitor.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Let me know when the amp try-out is, I'll see if i can't make the trip and bring the halfie out for a spin. And i have a hand-built compressor for you guys to check out too


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

Budda said:


> Let me know when the amp try-out is, I'll see if i can't make the trip and bring the halfie out for a spin. And i have a hand-built compressor for you guys to check out too


Will do. I think I'll just pick and date and organize from there. I'm thinking mid-August.


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## Guest (Jul 3, 2009)

*Creating Patches*

Right, so I sat down to create some patches last night. I thought I'd create from scratch to really get a feel for how you build things up. Started with an amp and a cab model. But I quickly found myself getting lost in the choices. I need more experience with the models first and I wanted a handful of patches for rehearsing done so I expited...

I threw that plan away and flipped through the presets until I found something that had an overdriven tone I thought was close to what I was after, copied that and worked from there.

That approach worked well actually. The first patch was a med-high gain patch for Hungry Like the Wolf. Ended up using the Budda amp paired with a Bogner 2x12 cab set for medium drive. A little light chorus placed after the cab. I put a Rat model out in front, bypassed, that I can bring in that brings the gain up to a really nice lead setting. I was building the patch while A/B'ing with the 2004 Live in London CD and man...I am darn close. It was maybe 30 minutes of work, start to finish, and most of that was just figuring out what the different parameters in the blocks did -- experimenting. With the Rat pedal being toggle-able via MIDI this'll probably be the rhythm/lead patch for a good deal of DD tunes.

I duplicated this patch. Dropped the chorus and the Rat. Brought the preamp drive down on the amp. Plunked in a Big Muff Pi model in front of it and dialed up the gain for a Rio patch. I had to fiddle with some of the really deep parameters on the Pi model to loose the low-end woof. It was pretty random knob turning until I figured out how to make it really sing. I'll probably try something experimental tonight for the chorus, single-line notes. He used an eBow on the album -- there might be some synth-type thing I can pull out of the Axe-Fx to help me out here.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

pshaw, just get an ebow - those things are fun! 

mid-august should be doable.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

check out sevenstring.org lots of users over there to help you out.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

This amp obviously isn't for the guy who finds spending more than a couple minutes EQing his amp, setting the reverb and throwing a couple of pedals in front way too much work.


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2009)

Robert1950 said:


> This amp obviously isn't for the guy who finds spending more than a couple minutes EQing his amp, setting the reverb and throwing a couple of pedals in front way too much work.


You are spot on there man. There's no doubt you can learn to move quickly with the Axe-Fx but it's going to take some serious time and commitment to get there. It's like your pedal board but so not like. It's like your amps and cabs but so not like. And the less experience you've got with MIDI and really deep effects gear the steeper the curve for sure.

Tonight I got my expression pedal working with it. That was simple actually -- it has a learn mode. The response time for the expression pedal is stellar. 

Tougher was getting my Loopholic to act as a program switcher. I was banging my head against the wall in frustration until I realized I'd plugged in the wrong line on my PedalSnake to the MIDI out on the Loopholic. Tee hee. Worked perfectly after that BUT (and it's a big BUT): it turns out the Loopholic doesn't let you see a PC-per-patch-per-bank. Instead you can only have it send a PC message for each of the 5 patches. So no matter which bank you're on Patch1 sends the same PC message. Which means, as a standalong MIDI controller, you can use to pick between 5 patches. Kinda lame. But for the purposes of evaluation it will suffice.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Hi Ian, I have been using the AXE for a couple of years. I love it. I ended up buying a second one for back-up and other purposes. 

The tones and different sounds you can get with this thing are amazing. and at any volume. and what versatility! 

One of the biggest ++ for me is how well it behaves for live playing. no more cranked amp on stage, and everyone else turning up to keep up. I was getting headaches.no more lugging around heavy amps and cabs. The sound that comes out of FOH is stellar and it is a soundman's dream. 

I was a total newbie to midi when I got it and it didn't take me long to get it up and running with lots of workable tones. it does require some work initially. No more than putting together a good rig with amps and cabs and pedals, just different. there is still alot you can do with it that I don't bother with but it is there if I want to tinker. 

enjoy!


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## Guest (Jul 4, 2009)

So some really good news: I talked to Jang, who makes the Loopholic, and he gave me an undocumented setting that lets me send a different PC# for each switch for each bank. That means my Loopholic is fully capable of acting as a switcher for me for now. A huge bonus. If I pair it up with some of my stranger analog pedals this is a _monster_ rig. Epic.

I started a patch exchange thread over here: http://www.guitarscanada.com/Board/showthread.php?t=24484


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

Congrats on the AXE FX.....it is a great unit. I sold my AXE FX rig recently but i would like to get another one down the road ideally a unit already integrated in an amp.


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## Guest (Jul 5, 2009)

Alex Dann said:


> Congrats on the AXE FX.....it is a great unit. I sold my AXE FX rig recently but i would like to get another one down the road ideally a unit already integrated in an amp.


There's a Fractal-Atomic collaboration going on now and all the speculation is saying it'll be a Reactor platform with a built in rack for the Axe-Fx. Handy indeed.


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

Couple of quick clips.

First up is a nice demonstration of how great this thing responds to changes in volume and attack. In this clip, based around the Bogner XTC amp model, all I'm doing is running through the same lick and just rolling up the volume between itterations. I've never touched any modeler before that worked this well when my guitar volume was on 1 (where I start out). They usually fall apart with anything less than a really high output signal, getting all digital and grainy as you attempt to "clean up" the model with your guitar's volume. There's amp -> cab -> a little stereo chorus so it sounds a little more fun in cans. And that's it.

http://files.getdropbox.com/u/870088/AxeFx/buttery1.mp3

Second clip is some work on a crazier Duran Duran sound I need to cover for the tribute project. I'm still missing some touch wah underneath all this. I'm still working on nailing this. But the bubbly, watery phaser his hitting this track in spades. All you're hearing in this track, delays, reverbs, phaser, and so on is Axe-Fx. Nothing added in the mix. The delay and reverb are routed in parallel to give it that space, but keep it from getting mushy. This 80's clean guitar heaven here.

http://files.getdropbox.com/u/870088/AxeFx/comeundone.mp3


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## mcgriff420 (Sep 30, 2008)

http://files.getdropbox.com/u/870088/AxeFx/buttery1.mp3



Damn! If I could get just that tone from a pre-amp > direct to the board I
would be one happy camper!

..


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

mcgriff420 said:


> Damn! If I could get just that tone from a pre-amp > direct to the board I
> would be one happy camper!


The really brilliant thing here is how consistently you get that tone. Every time. There's no dying tubes. There's no warm up period. There's no cold speakers. The only variable is the guy at the board and even he can be reasoned with or bribed. :smile:


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## messenger (Jul 14, 2007)

I picked one up about a month ago and love it. :sport-smiley-002: I find it pretty easy to build basic patches (my main rythym tone is the slo and nothing else). I'm currently running it into a carvin power amp into a 4x12 greenback loaded cab. I ordered a FBT Verve 12ma which should be here in a few weeks. When the sound guy (a guitar player) at recent gig heard it (and was asking about it, whether or not hit tubes, ect) finished off by saying "You Asshole" When I told him I dialed in my patches in about 30 seconds each, he just shock his head. He said its been my best tone so far (followed closely by my Stiletto).


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## Guest (Jul 28, 2009)

messenger said:


> I picked one up about a month ago and love it. :sport-smiley-002: I find it pretty easy to build basic patches (my main rythym tone is the slo and nothing else). I'm currently running it into a carvin power amp into a 4x12 greenback loaded cab. I ordered a FBT Verve 12ma which should be here in a few weeks. When the sound guy (a guitar player) at recent gig heard it (and was asking about it, whether or not hit tubes, ect) finished off by saying "You Asshole" When I told him I dialed in my patches in about 30 seconds each, he just shock his head. He said its been my best tone so far (followed closely by my Stiletto).


I'd really like to hear what you think of the 12ma and whether it was worth the cost. I'm currently running my with a Yorkville E10P -- sounds great but only if you're very near the monitor. So far it's not been a problem at rehearsal, and live it looks like we'll be using the house or our own system. But if I ever had to use the E10P in a small club to fill the room I think I'd be pushing it to its limits pretty quickly.

Who did you order the 12ma from? Moog?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

apparently the XTC makes Electric Cellos sound awesome.

looking forward to hearing this in person


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## messenger (Jul 14, 2007)

iaresee said:


> I'd really like to hear what you think of the 12ma and whether it was worth the cost. I'm currently running my with a Yorkville E10P -- sounds great but only if you're very near the monitor. So far it's not been a problem at rehearsal, and live it looks like we'll be using the house or our own system. But if I ever had to use the E10P in a small club to fill the room I think I'd be pushing it to its limits pretty quickly.
> 
> Who did you order the 12ma from? Moog?


I'll let you know how it is when I get it (supposed to be towards the end of August). I ordered it from Springtree. I got a fantastic price on it ($699US), but it now says on their website that after this next shipment they aren`t going to be carrying them any more.


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

messenger said:


> I'll let you know how it is when I get it (supposed to be towards the end of August). I ordered it from Springtree. I got a fantastic price on it ($699US), but it now says on their website that after this next shipment they aren`t going to be carrying them any more.


That is ridiculously cheap. Moog wanted $900 for 8ma and $1400 for the 12ma!

I was playing the E10P tonight with a monster drummer and that little sucker kept up just fine in the rehearsal space. But no way is it going to fill a club.


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## axepilot (Aug 31, 2006)

Ecstatic Axe FX user since February........................Fractal Audio hit it out of the park with the Axe FX. :smile:


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## Gizmo (Aug 7, 2008)

*Mixed feelings about selling*

Hi Ian. 

Really glad you're enjoying the AxeFx. I had really mixed feelings about selling it to you, simply because I loved the tremendous capability but hated the amount of "headspace" it took from me.
I'm a bit of a tech head too, used to design synths back in the early days but somehow I found the Axe just pre-occupied me with too many things (especially what to play it through!!)
I probably will get another one day but for now I'm happy again with my tube amps.
By the way, the Mac beta editor worked just fine for me. If you can't get it to work, you could try the earlier version which was ok too...just not quite as slick.
Anyway, thanks for a smooth deal and good luck with the AxeFx
Ken



iaresee said:


> And how quickly things change. I got a good offer on the Koch from a super nice guy up visiting from Toronto. Humber grad who was really digging on the hi-fi clean tones the Koch produced and the nice, compact size -- he was killing these nice dissonant jazz lines on a headless Steinberger when he came over to try it out.
> 
> He took it away. I have no doubt he'll be making great music with it. Always nice when your gear moves on to a good home.
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Jul 29, 2009)

Gizmo said:


> Hi Ian.
> 
> Really glad you're enjoying the AxeFx. I had really mixed feelings about selling it to you, simply because I loved the tremendous capability but hated the amount of "headspace" it took from me.
> I'm a bit of a tech head too, used to design synths back in the early days but somehow I found the Axe just pre-occupied me with too many things (especially what to play it through!!)
> ...


Hey Ken!

Yea, I'm past the nervous stage and well into the honeymoon. Last night's rehearsal with it, running through a Yorkville E10P, was glorious. The only thing that annoyed me was tweaking patches in the field meant menu diving. More dials and knobs would be cool.

I did get the Mac beta editor to work. I had to buy a new MIDI interface. But really: that editor is horrific. It's an affront to good software design.  I'm just using SysEx Librarian to save and restore patches for now, doing my editing from the Axe-Fx. I gave them a pretty big beta and usability report on the software. I'll wait a few more months before I try it again. 

Thanks again!


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## Guest (Aug 9, 2009)

Well into the honeymoon here now and it's still going strong. The love I feel for digital now is like love I've not felt before for digital. There's an analog warmth to the love that just can't be described, it must be felt.

Anyhow, the forum around the unit is decent. And if owning one isn't cool enough, you can triple the cool factor by posting in the forum and possible having Dweezil Zappa help you out with your problem. Check it: http://www.fractalaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=8754 -- yes, that is he. He's using Axe-Fx units on the ZPZ tour. Cooooooooool.


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## JMann (Feb 18, 2007)

Hey Ian

Std or Ultra? Sorry if I missed it. Regarding the differentiating features between the 2 units, do you utilize those extra features on the Ultra (if that's what you own)? I know it is all subjective but would appreciate a users opinion on the Std and Ultra.

Man, I am on the fence big time for one of these. And I see there is one f/s here which increases gas pressure. 

Thanx,
Jim


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2009)

JMann said:


> Std or Ultra?


Standard for me. Twas all that I could afford on the used market. 



> Regarding the differentiating features between the 2 units, do you utilize those extra features on the Ultra (if that's what you own)? I know it is all subjective but would appreciate a users opinion on the Std and Ultra.


Right, so thus far, making my own patches, I haven't even come close to hitting the ceiling for processing power on my Standard. It's been fine. And while it sounds like cool stuff, I'm not missing the multi-band compressor, the extra sequencer steps, or the synth stuff that the Ultra comes with. I do dig the flash area for patch back up (something the Standard has but not the Ultra).

Will I own an Ultra in the future? Nah. I'll wait until the next thing from Fractal comes out and jump all over that.



> Man, I am on the fence big time for one of these. And I see there is one f/s here which increases gas pressure.


That package deal here is very, very good. I sat where you were for a year. Hummed and hah'ed over things. I couldn't afford the Axe-Fx and my pedal board and tube amp. It was a hugely scary leap.

And there's no way I'd go back now. This thing is what they said it would be and more.

I hung on to a few pedals. The one-off's, DIY and special sentiment ones. And I'll probably buy a little tube amp this fall for no other reason than I'm a gear slut. But the main rig is now:

Lexicon R1, Guitar --> Axe-Fx --> Yorkvile E10P

I've got a Boss FV-500 and another external switch I can run into the Lexicon but right now I just don't need two pedals and the extra switch. There's enough on the Lexicon to keep me massively happy when it comes to switching options.

And I'm mulling over building my own controller now. Something around an Arduino chip. That'd be a lot of fun.


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