# Will the North American car industry survive?



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I worked for GM in St Catharines from 1983 to 1994. At it's peek, GM employed just over 11,000 people in St Catharines. There were 4 plants here at one time. When I left they were down to about 3400. Today they are around the 3000 mark. They closed two plants and the remaining two are barely alive. Across NA they are closing plants and trimming the workforce at alarming rates. Some financial experts believe that it is only a matter of time before they will have to file a bankruptcy claim. They are dumping their interest in Isuzu and are actively seeking to drop 50% of GMAC (about the only division that made money)

Ford and DCX are not in that much better shape. DCX is making a little money but are like number 4 or 5 now. Ford pulled the trigger on the layoffs and plant closures a little sooner than GM but too late to really impact the future. 

Today, we have many of the offshore makers building and assembling vehicles in North America. The profits going back home. I have been working for and with the auto industry, mainly GM for about 23 years and I have never seen it as bad as it is today. The future, at least for the next 10 or so years is in China, not only for the savings in manufacturing but for the emerging market as well.


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

How come Toyota , Honda, and Hyundai can come to North America, build cars, and increase market share whilst the traditionals lose?? I'll narrow it down for you. For years they built crap, and force fed it to us. They kept giving us 75 year old engine technology, and giving us suv`s, vans and trucks that were not safe. Trucks are not required to be built to the same safety standards as passenger cars, so the profit margins were bigger, because they didn't have to engineer them to the higher levels of safety. The unions strangled the companies, and demanded huge benefits and pensions. Now they're gonna pay the price. I think its time for a good feed of humble pie, what do you think??

CT.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Well Coco, here is my take on it. I listed the effect in my opening post, but not my "cause". You have a few points that I would agree with but not all. Firstly, the car game is not a "if you build it they will come" type of business, at least not since Ford was rolling model T's of the assembly line. The industry is driven by demand. Japanese imports have been around since the late 60's and if you recall, anything that you purchased from Asia throughout the 70's and into the 80's essentially disintigrated from the outside inward within about two years. They were using lawnmower engines and expoxy to build them. What happened was the price. They brought them in so low that a lot of people could not turn them down.

Now there is no argument that through the 70's the big three quality was terrible as well. I can think of about 7 cars in particular that were real lemons. But that changed dramatically in the mid 80's and today the quality of the cars coming out of the big three are on par with anything in the world. In terms of engine technology, a 5.3L or 6.0L Vortec from GM is going to run 300,000 KM for you with regular maintainance. Can you think of any engines in the past doing that.

The reason they build gas guzzling SUV's and Trucks is beacuse "we buy them" the same reason that the margins are so high on them is because "we are willing to pay for them". Do you think that if people did not buy them, that they would make them? Up until a few years ago when the oil started to get out of control again, people were gobbling them up left and right. I have never in my life seen so many 1/2 ton trucks on the road that have never seen, nor ever will see a load in them... what fool buys a 1/2 ton truck and then sits around polishing it everday? Only here in North America. It's the public that drives what the car companies do.

Yes, the foriegn car companies are all here. A large part of the components are brought in from foriegn sources. What they do here is assemble and sell. Thats exactly where the big three are headed, they will eventually move as much of the manufacturing as they can offshore, then bring it back, assemble and sell. This reduces cost. 

A prime example of the cause and effect is the company I work for today. The pressure is so intense from the big three on price that we, and any other North American based supplier are being forced to set-up manufacturing facilities in China, India, Mexico etc to utilize the cheap labour. Build the parts bring them back and sell them for North American consumption. All contribute to job losses. Do the Union's fight it, of course. In the global economy the unions will lose. But in the long run who is really losing?


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I really, really want to buy an American car, but they never build them the way I want them. American cars are cheap to drive, cheap to fix, cheap to insure. If only they could build a car for me, I would be happy. I've tried Japanesse cars, and I really cant stand them. I dont like my tach needle higher than my speedometer. Things go in cycles. At one time VW had 67% of the import market, then they changed their cars, and their market share evaporated. The same will happen to everyone who is a leader in the car business. They only stay at the top for awhile, and then someone else takes over. They will be back.............


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

I finally moved to import with my last vehicle. I don't think I'll go back. It's been a year without a hickup, my last american product would have been recalled 3 times by now.

Though I did have a Pontiac Grand Prix GTP that treated my right for 6 years, only an alternator replacement.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Jeff Flowerday said:


> I finally moved to import with my last vehicle. I don't think I'll go back. It's been a year without a hickup, my last american product would have been recalled 3 times by now.
> 
> Though I did have a Pontiac Grand Prix GTP that treated my right for 6 years, only an alternator replacement.


Those 3.8L Grand Prix's and Bonnies were notorios for alternators. I had a Bonneville for a few years and had three alternators replaced. I currently have the Grand Prix GTP and have had no issues at all with it. I turn them over every 2.5 years so I have not had the opportunity to see what they will do in the lomng run. But the 3.8L pushrod from GM has to go down as one of the best engines thay have ever made. That thing will run forever.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Those 3.8L Grand Prix's and Bonnies were notorios for alternators. I had a Bonneville for a few years and had three alternators replaced. I currently have the Grand Prix GTP and have had no issues at all with it. I turn them over every 2.5 years so I have not had the opportunity to see what they will do in the lomng run. But the 3.8L pushrod from GM has to go down as one of the best engines thay have ever made. That thing will run forever.


Mine was a 96', I think it was the 3.6L.

Had an Envoy after that, seemed to get recalled every 2 months. Tranny problems, stalling problems. Collapsed cat. The list goes on and on.

I'm in a G35 now with the VQ35 engine which may be the best motor ever produced, period!


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Bizarre how that works, I just rolled over an Envoy when I got this GTP. I remember a few recalls, but nothing serious. Other than that it was great. I miss the room in it for sure. The brakes were a little weak in my opinion, but again, I had no issues with mine.


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

My day gig is a sales manager in a Honda store, so I'm pretty close to the pulse of the auto biz. The folks at Honda Motor Co. are masters at creating a niche for a product, and then producing the perfect vehicle for that niche. Look at the CR-V, and how sucessful that has been. The Accord back in `77 was the first in that intermediate size, and they own that segment. What GM has to do now to survive, is downsize, which they are doing at a furious pace, but they also have to slash product lines. They certainly don't need all the shared models that they have. I really don't see them survivng and coming out the other end remotely resembling the company that we know now. I don't want to get into a pissing contest, because that would get us nowhere at all, but they are doomed. The writings` on the wall.


CT.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

CocoTone said:


> My day gig is a sales manager in a Honda store, so I'm pretty close to the pulse of the auto biz. The folks at Honda Motor Co. are masters at creating a niche for a product, and then producing the perfect vehicle for that niche. Look at the CR-V, and how sucessful that has been. The Accord back in `77 was the first in that intermediate size, and they own that segment. What GM has to do now to survive, is downsize, which they are doing at a furious pace, but they also have to slash product lines. They certainly don't need all the shared models that they have. I really don't see them survivng and coming out the other end remotely resembling the company that we know now. I don't want to get into a pissing contest, because that would get us nowhere at all, but they are doomed. The writings` on the wall.
> 
> CT.
> 
> CT.


No pissing contest on this side, I happen to agree with you. In the end GM will have to emerge as a much smaller, leaner company. it's the only way they can survive. Some of this can be put down to bad decisions, stupidity etc. But a lot of it is pure global economy and the lack of preperation for doing business in it. You cannot apply the 70's and 80's business model to today's market. Your comments on those Honda models goes to what I was saying. The buyer drives the market. Build something that people "want" to buy and you will succeed. My concern is that I would like to see these NA companies back on their feet. I do not want to see them die.


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## Xanadu (Feb 3, 2006)

well I drive a 95 cavalier, and love it, my dad drives a 98 corolla and my car was way cheaper, faster, better handling, especially in the winter, and the only thing i've had to do with the car in the past 3 years (when i got it) was the brakes once. And the stereo. 

I think that the reason that people are buying import is because they have a better reputation than domestic. But chevy has a better reputation than chrysler and ford. My dad also has a Ford and it's in the shop every other month.

Basically i'm sticking with Domestics, chevys, for a while until either the imports drop in price or domestics start to lose reputation again. When we buy stuff made in our own country, we are helping our economy.


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

Xanadu said:


> well I drive a 95 cavalier, and love it, my dad drives a 98 corolla and my car was way cheaper, faster, better handling, especially in the winter, and the only thing i've had to do with the car in the past 3 years (when i got it) was the brakes once. And the stereo.
> 
> I think that the reason that people are buying import is because they have a better reputation than domestic. But chevy has a better reputation than chrysler and ford. My dad also has a Ford and it's in the shop every other month.
> 
> Basically i'm sticking with Domestics, chevys, for a while until either the imports drop in price or domestics start to lose reputation again. When we buy stuff made in our own country, we are helping our economy.



Hondas and Toyotas are made here. You new?

CT.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Honda's and Toyota's are assembled here. Where is the money going?


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Honda's and Toyota's are assembled here. Where is the money going?


...no sir,,they`re manufactured here. Over 80% domestic content on Odyssey, Ridgeline, Civic and Element. Even the engines are cast and built here in Ohio. Nice try tho ...  Sure, a percentage of the net goes back to Japan, but remember, this is very much a global economy, so at this point in history, that is very much a moot point.

CT.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

CocoTone said:


> ...no sir,,they`re manufactured here. Over 80% domestic content on Odyssey, Ridgeline, Civic and Element. Even the engines are cast and built here in Ohio. Nice try tho ...  Sure, a percentage of the net goes back to Japan, but remember, this is very much a global economy, so at this point in history, that is very much a moot point.
> 
> CT.


So you are of the belief and understanding that Toyota and Honda are a North American company? This is where it's all gone wrong my friend. The assimilation continues.

Do some checking into the companies based in North America that supply this 80% content and you will discover that many of them are also foriegn owned. The Japanese take care of their own. Most of them are part of the Keiretsu and are told what their components are worth. They are offered lifetime contracts to supply but must meet the target pricing and are essentially without creative freedom on design or pricing. It's like Dieter Zetsche at DCX running around having his picture taken in Cowboy hats and shaking hands with all the charities. The bottom line is DCX is now German owned. 

The 80% content is what the sales dudes are given to make the buyers feel that they are truly buying a North American product. Once the 3% profit is banked by these "suppliers" the profits on the sale of the vehicle get put on a plane and are flown out.

Which one is not the *******?


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

Facts of life. Deal with it. The fact is that the domestics are being beaten at their own game. The fact that Hondas are being built here was because of the import tariffs of the 80`s.

CT.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Right on Coco, I guess thats a fair argument


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## Xanadu (Feb 3, 2006)

CocoTone said:


> Hondas and Toyotas are made here. You new?
> 
> CT.


i know hondas and toyotas are made here, but it doesnt mean that they're a north american company


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I find it funny that Japan is closed to almost all import cars, and they only allow a certain amount of them in each year. The people of Japan want to buy an import too, but they cant. Japan also makes them buy new cars every few years, as they force older cars off the road, and stimulate their economy. The grass is always greener on the other side. In terms of reliability, the leader for the past 10 years for building unreliable junk is a Japanese company. They may not be in the car business any longer so Scott will be happy, although the Japanese government has mentioned that they will try to rescue it and take it national, so they'll be around to cause havoc for another 10 years. The car industry in Japan is a big pride thing, so they dont like embarrassments..........
A big thing in Japan is to buy a classic American car, invite your friends over, pay someone to drive it around the race track as you all watch, and then have dinner inside the car. They are strange people. My car has 1% North American content. Maybe I should find out what that 1% is and remove it, then I'll be really evil..............


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## walden (Feb 5, 2006)

i know my companies production is increasing huge, i work for a tier one supplier though. we mostly supply to the "big 3" but now we're trying to get more asian customers. i dont think the "industry is dying"... maybe north american owned industry. but there'd still be jobs here supplying to foriegn companies.

needless to say, i work for an italian owned company. haha.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Here is an intersting article from Peter DeLorenzo of The Auto Extremist. he tells it like it is.

http://www.autoextremist.com/page2.shtml#Rant


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

He doesn't really say much in that article. I've never heard of his outfit or him for that matter, and I watch the trades(Automotive News etc) as I'm in the biz. Pretty lame broad stroke article if I do say so. He doesn't bring up any ground breaking info.

CT.


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## Mr. David Severson (Feb 3, 2006)

I think the North American auto market is in trouble because of poor design. Look at GMC/CHEVY/GM/PONTIAC/BUICK for instance. They have 15 of the same but different cars. Why don't they concentrate on the vehicels that were somewhat selling and improve them and evolve them. The imports have defintly done this. Look at the Honda Civic, when did that come out?, 1976? it has evovled and is a major player in the auto market. I personally drive a Nissan Altima. I used to drive a second gen Chrysler intrepid. I liked my car but when it came to re sale of a domestic $25000.00 car it is quite sad. The Altima and other imports seem to retain there resale value. Is it due to quality? Maybe..

Just my .02


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Everyone views it differently I guess. You have the perspective of the average guy that just sees what is on TV and in print. The buying public that is not involved with the auto industry. The people that sell cars for a living, which by virtue of a paycheque may have a little lean towards one brand over another. Beleive it or not but I have talked to salesmen at dealerships that did not know what engine was in particular vehicle. I leased a Chevy Aveo (which is a riding lawnmower with seatbelts and a jigsaw motor in it) for the GF last year and the dude had no idea that car was made in Korea by Daewoo. Then there are those that work with the manufacturers of all these brands and hang out at the world headquarters every week. It's good to hear all views. But from my end, living and working in Detroit it's auto culture extreme. 24/7. Media spies hiding in the bushes outside the proving grounds to snap pics of anything new coming down the pipe.

Being searched going in and out of any of the world headquarters... working with design engineers on what will eventually be on the road in 2010 and beyond. Thats what I do for a living so my take on things is a bit different. I have been hanging around these people for 23 years. So when I read stuff by a guy like Pete DeLorenzo I say to myself.... Pete knows what he is saying.


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## PintoMusic (Feb 5, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> In terms of engine technology, a 5.3L or 6.0L Vortec from GM is going to run 300,000 KM for you with regular maintainance. Can you think of any engines in the past doing that.


Ask anyone with a Toyota 22R engine.









I never quite understood what GM was doing - in particular with their cars. People used to make fun of Chrysler for how almost their entire line-up selection in the 80's was made up of Dodge Aries' in disguise. Now I look at a current mid-size GM and they're pretty much still offering the same V6 that débuted in the 1980 Citation.









Having said that, aside from the odd head-gasket or transmission-failure, at least GM's seem to age a little better than Chryslers or Fords.


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## mick7 (Mar 20, 2006)

i had a ford and it broke down like an @$$ it cost so much to fix i ended up buying another car and it lasted longer


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## guitarzan (Feb 22, 2006)

i don't wory about the North American companies. i don't have anything against them either. i look at it as they are in control of thier destiny.
i drive a Toyota Matrix and love it. go ahead and stick it to me with gas prices.
i seen the writing on the wall with greedy oil companies and said enough allready.
i know my motor isn't going to die, i have seen lots of Toyotas with major kilometres on them still going.
as far as which companies are getting the profits i don't care. 
it is our greed that is screwing us anyway.
N.A. company wants higher profits and farms work out to lower wage countries so N.A. consumer can get stuff cheaper. then we bitch about the job losses.
you can't have it both ways.
this isn't as big a deal in the auto industry but as for every other manufacturer in N.A. it is a reality. 
i would say the biggest problem with the auto industry is the yoyo's at the top.
if they had some real fresh thinking common sense Managers maybe they would see the real problem.
i have wondered what sense it made for Gm to have 4 models ( of course that has changed a little) of the same car.
that is 4 times the advertising bucks and it makes no sense.
we do rely a little too much on hype for our domestic products.
N.A. is really into hype, nostalgia, advertising that says nothing.
that is only going to get you a result for awhile.
who is to blame. we all are.
we want it all and we want to pay nothing for it.
awhile back our company (major tire maker) had a manager come to our plant and clean house of all the dead wood we had.
if you didn't add value to the product you were an expense.
smart man. we ended up with less middle management and more production resources. 
i would bet most N.A. auto makers could benefit from similar housecleaning.
Canadians built my Matrix, but that wasn't a selling point for me. i bought it because it filled my needs.
it is sad to see people lose thier jobs. 
but i doulbt the industry is going to die. already there are better american cars lately than a few years back.
as mentioned the Japanese have a very different way of handling thier autos in thier land. if i recall the thier cars get inspected at the actual manufacturer and as the car gets older it is more expensive to inspect.
one of the benefits of this is the maker learns what is wearing out and needs improving. and they don't have 20 years old smog bucket death traps on the road either.
why do we assume we are smarter than every other society?
everyone can benefit form learning from the competition. the Japanese have learnt from us. we are slower to learn.
and we pay the price.
we seem to be driven a little more by money than substance.
we would do better if we focused more on making the best product at the best price. as opposed to the most profit we could squeeze out of a reskinned car. 
i am amazed at how many N.A. companies use the "made in america, apple pie blah blah" crap in ads. so f'n what?
we also live in a time where standard feature lists are a big selling point.
my requirements for standard features are these..
1. reliabilty
2. quality
3. durability
i could care less if a competitors model had standard air conditioning if the car was breaking down regularly later on down the road.
all i have ever wanted was a car the had the basics down. i gave up on polished turds with bells and whistles.
i am done ranting now.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Actually North American cars still lead in one area, and thats repair costs. I once had a Chrysler and was amazed how cheap it was to fix. Of course I always say, mechanics bill you based on the retail price of your car, not on the actual work they do.......


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## james on bass (Feb 4, 2006)

Mr. David Severson said:


> I think the North American auto market is in trouble because of poor design. Look at GMC/CHEVY/GM/PONTIAC/BUICK for instance. They have 15 of the same but different cars. Why don't they concentrate on the vehicels that were somewhat selling and improve them and evolve them. The imports have defintly done this. Look at the Honda Civic, when did that come out?, 1976? it has evovled and is a major player in the auto market. I personally drive a Nissan Altima. I used to drive a second gen Chrysler intrepid. I liked my car but when it came to re sale of a domestic $25000.00 car it is quite sad. The Altima and other imports seem to retain there resale value. Is it due to quality? Maybe..
> 
> Just my .02


I agree to an extent. N.American auto manufacturers have been caught asleep at the switch in the past. I think they have a much better handle on things now - they are getting better for sure.

As for resale values - I believe they are high on Japanese brands because there are people out there willing to pay the money with the perception they are getting a much better car.


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## faracaster (Mar 9, 2006)

Well I'm going to buy a new car soon. I own a 13 year old vehicle with over 300,000 kms on it. No problems, really great car. Looking at my spread sheet I spend very little in car maitenance, but my gas consumption is not great by today's standard. Looks like I'm in the 10-12 litre per 100km range.
but I'm spending 500-700 a month in gas, at last year's prices!!!! So it is going to be worse than that when I figure out 2006. That combined with the Federal Government's new green house gas policy (yep, when the going gets tough, we Canadians sit back, crack a cold one, and say,"We can't do that") was enough to get me out to the lots, online and magazines to see what was a "comfortable" non-gas guzzling vehicle.
I have looked at everything. And there (at this time) is nothing made by GM/Ford/Chrysler that approachs what a few non-North American based companies have done in getting the litres per 100kms down. Honda has a couple of really good contenders. The hybrid Civic and Accord. Although their only true Hybrid vehicle, The Insight, was conspicuously absent from the lots I went to. As a matter of fact, none of the dealers even had literature on it. I knew more about it than the sales staff did! But I was surprised that there was not more of an effort from Ford in getting good hybrid vehicles out there. I know they invested in Ballard fuel cell systems over a decade ago and I think they are the most forward thinking North American company. 
What I'm saying here based on what I look for in a vehicle, the big three are not where I am going. I mean I really don't see this as a US vs. THEM debate anyway. Many companies have manufacturing facilities here. Which employ us Canadians. And this number seems to be growing as opposed to the plant closures and shut downs from our N/A based companies. And really there are no CANADIAN car companies to support. Just manufacturing plants of American interests. So really who cares if it is Ford or Kia that gives you a job to support your family. All I want is a good car that pollutes less.
By the way, I'm buying a Toyota PRIUS. A really great car that uses 4 litres or LESS per 100kms in the CITY!!! Also a lot of fun to drive with it's computer screen control and no engine sound when at a stop. Now it does not FEEL like my BMW 525 and I didn't expect it to. But it has more space in the cockpit and more in the back seat according to my son. And he really digs the futurist aspects of the car. Which is important to a 10 year old and therefore important to his Dad. When I figured out what I would pay with nothing down and my gas savings, I'm going to pay the same or less than I do now for gas alone. Here's another little item, I get the almost ALL of the PST ($2000) back from the province and their incentives for greener cars. So this summer when we have our record 90th day with temps above 30 degrees C, I can feel a little better about driving so much. 

Cheers
Pete


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

faracaster said:


> Well I'm going to buy a new car soon. I own a 13 year old vehicle with over 300,000 kms on it. No problems, really great car. Looking at my spread sheet I spend very little in car maitenance, but my gas consumption is not great by today's standard. Looks like I'm in the 10-12 litre per 100km range.
> but I'm spending 500-700 a month in gas, at last year's prices!!!! So it is going to be worse than that when I figure out 2006. That combined with the Federal Government's new green house gas policy (yep, when the going gets tough, we Canadians sit back, crack a cold one, and say,"We can't do that") was enough to get me out to the lots, online and magazines to see what was a "comfortable" non-gas guzzling vehicle.
> I have looked at everything. And there (at this time) is nothing made by GM/Ford/Chrysler that approachs what a few non-North American based companies have done in getting the litres per 100kms down. Honda has a couple of really good contenders. The hybrid Civic and Accord. Although their only true Hybrid vehicle, The Insight, was conspicuously absent from the lots I went to. As a matter of fact, none of the dealers even had literature on it. I knew more about it than the sales staff did! But I was surprised that there was not more of an effort from Ford in getting good hybrid vehicles out there. I know they invested in Ballard fuel cell systems over a decade ago and I think they are the most forward thinking North American company.
> What I'm saying here based on what I look for in a vehicle, the big three are not where I am going. I mean I really don't see this as a US vs. THEM debate anyway. Many companies have manufacturing facilities here. Which employ us Canadians. And this number seems to be growing as opposed to the plant closures and shut downs from our N/A based companies. And really there are no CANADIAN car companies to support. Just manufacturing plants of American interests. So really who cares if it is Ford or Kia that gives you a job to support your family. All I want is a good car that pollutes less.
> ...


The Hondas are not true Hybrid vehicles? How so?? I think the Civic Hybrid has the Prius beat, not only in price, but fuel milage as well. The only thing the Prius will do that the Civic can`t, is run on electrcity alone, which is pretty much a moot point. How much time will you spend in that mode?? 

CT.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I think this Ford beats them all for gas milage at 4 oz. / 100 miles........
http://www.jeffchabotte.com/waterfuel.wmv

I still prefer to drive my gas guzzler though..............


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

It will survive for awhile, but the big three will not likely ever be GM/Ford/Chrysler again.


The global economy is having major effects on the industry. I believe it will eventually balance out but in the mean time we're in for some rough sailing.


As more and more of the supply base is in China, Thailand, Malaysia et cetera, there are less and less people here in NA earning enough to buy the cars.

Relentless cost reduction pressures by the OEMs have had disastrous impacts to domestic suppliers. This in spite of record profits at Nissan and Honda. Fortunately they're starting to understand that this cannot go on forever and are making efforts to work in a more cooperative way with their suppliers.

Ford and GM are making noises to that effect as well, but I have always tried to stay at arms length from them. They don't manage their inventory in such a way as to protect their suppliers.


I'll take Honda, Nissan and Toyota in terms of how they manage their resources.


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## Welladjusted (Feb 19, 2006)

i think the switch to alternative fuel sources (which is now inevitable) will determine the fate of many auto makers, regardless of nationality. that's where the industry is headed, and anyone who takes too long to get on board will be SOL.

of course, i could be wrong on this.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

It all has to do with,... naw I'm not even going to try. My brother works at DC in Bramalea. He was laid off for years. He refused the buy out package. Then he finally got called back when they started making the 300 and Magnum and Charger. Last year he was working 6 days, 10 hour shifts ( or something like that) He earned $98m. They are easing back to normal hours since they caught up with demand and sales have leveled out for that model line. In a few months theyll start the Challanger - they've already got enough orders to for well in to 2007.

P.S. My dad worked at Chrysler for 30 years. He retired at 59 and live to 84. 25 years of retirement and a Chrysler pension.


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## faracaster (Mar 9, 2006)

CocoTone said:


> The Hondas are not true Hybrid vehicles? How so?? I think the Civic Hybrid has the Prius beat, not only in price, but fuel milage as well. The only thing the Prius will do that the Civic can`t, is run on electrcity alone, which is pretty much a moot point. How much time will you spend in that mode??
> 
> CT.



No they are not. The hybrid Civic and Accord And the Toyota Camry and Ford Escape etc. etc. are vehicles that are converted. The Prius is built from the ground up as a hybrid vehicle. The materials used in construction, the alloys, the design etc. are all brand new technology. This is not based on another car's platform. Which is why it gets better numbers than the conversions. Actually I read an article a few months ago with the president of Toyota that said that they do not break even on the Prius. That building that car was like starting a new car company from scratch. New building, computers, robots, everything. How they are financing it is by selling the technology to other car manufacturers (in North America and elsewhere). I would have liked to have driven a Honda Insight (another true hybrid), but like I said, no sales person at the Honda dealerships I went to knew anything about it. I guess that is because they have discontinued it as they sold only five of them in Canada last year.
To your point about what you think is moot concerning the electric nature of the Prius, I drove one for about 70 minutes in a small town setting, and along with highway. In the town, every time I slowed down, stopped, or did not attain speed over a certain number, all I was using was the electric portion of the car. So for me, driving in downtown Toronto rush hour traffic twice a day, running from meeting to shop to studio, 6 days a week, I'm expecting the electric part of the car to be a large part of why I'm buying one.
But that is just me. I'm not trying to convince anyone here that it is the best car, or they should buy one. The question was asked, "will the N/A makers survive?" Well my answer would be not unless they get smarter. I've never bought N/A. I've only bought three different manufacturers all my life. BMW (4 cars) VW (two cars) Honda (three cars) and it looks like I'm not going to this time because they don't offer what I want.

P. S. check the mileage Civic vs. Prius I think you'll find they are close. but the Prius beats it. Yes the Civic is cheaper, but not significantly. and the Civic is much smaller inside. Don't get me wrong, I like the Civic and good on Honda for offering hybrid vehicles.

Cheers 
Pete


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

The "cancer" at GM has been cut out. Kirk Kerkorian sold his 9.9% share of General Motors and will no longer be a thorn in the side of the brass at GM. Or maybe he was the only sane one connected to the Big Blue Machine. Time will tell. He purchased his shares for a total of $1.7 Billion dollars. He wound up with a profit of $100 million. Well below his expectations.

GM lost $10.6 Billion dollars last year. It's bonds are junk rated and it's US market share is now below 26%.

So long Kirk.... we hardly knew ye


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

Milkman said:


> It will survive for awhile, but the big three will not likely ever be GM/Ford/Chrysler again.
> 
> 
> The global economy is having major effects on the industry. I believe it will eventually balance out but in the mean time we're in for some rough sailing.
> ...


 Well said Milkman!

China is killing North America. I truly believe their goal is to destroy the US economy. They want to be #1 and will prove it at the 2008 Olympics.

In the 80's -90's there were 2000+ Tool & Die shops in the Windsor area alone supplying the auto industry. Today there are 200. The last 3 years for my company, which was started by my father 40 years ago, have been brutal.
We actually got away from the auto industry in the mid 90's as we saw better opportunities in other markets! It turned out to be a smart move but now, those better opportunities are also disappearing overseas as well. The government tells us to explore manufacturing in China? I am Canadian and would prefer to employ Canadians here at home. 

As Milkman said, things should balance out eventually, but when that is, no one is sure. In order for things to balance out, wages will have to drop and along with that, standards of living. 

Chrysler is in overdrive with the Magnum? Maybe.......but can you explain what they are going to do with the 85000 vehicles parked at Downsview that dealers are refusing to take because they can't sell what is on their lot?

All this being said, I'm guilty............I drive a G35 and my last two vehicles were Japanese as well. I really would like to support North American vehicles if they could build something I want with quality.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...my first car was a honda civic. it was practically indestructable. my second was a hyundai accent. it was no honda civic, but still incredible bang for the buck. currently i have a 2001 toyota echo. i'm closing in on 200,000 clicks, and STILL no major problems, in spite of the fact that it was a rental before i owned it.

north american cars just don't seem to offer that kind of value and reliability coupled with great gas consumption.

and then there are the lincoln navigators, cadillac escalades, hummers and other vehicles that completely redefine "stupid".

-dh


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