# Messed up warranty repair??



## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

A while ago I took my D18(1976) into a well known repair shop in Toronto. A
friend, after looking closely at the guitar, suggested its' value is lowered because of a messy neck reset.
-the heel had cracked during neck removal, the crack mark is visible as a line in the finish
-the rosewood at either side of the 12th fret has very dark filler to repair the, I assume, damage caused by pulling 12th fret
- the side edges, top and bottom, of the fretboard sitting on the body have no clear finish( just bare rosewood)
-the heel( neck)where it joins the end of the body and top area has a small 1/8" long gap the thickness of a sheet of paper.

Is it normal, after a neck reset, the procedure will look obvious that work was done.....or will it appear as it left the factory?

Correction:
dark filler is at 15th fret
gap is at body binding and heel


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

without a bit of refinish work, id call that normal.
the cosmetic work will not only cost more, but may also devalue your guitar-
thats just my take on it.
a neck reset is about as invasive a procedure as you can get- for a perfect result some finish work is needed- 
if the finish on yur martin is not nitro, shellac, or oil based, then fixing it would require almost a full refinish-


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

*It may be well know*

But it sure doesn't sound like they did a very good job, unless they can prove to you that the heel was cracked before hand I am hoping that you didn't have to pay them, while I think there are very good tech's out theri I would think that a luthier might have been a better person to do this job, because what you are describing certainly doesn't qualify as even a decent job, I hope that you guys are negotiating soem sort of settlement for the mess they created and that you are looking for a luthier who might be able to fix the mess they made for you.
For me considering the value of a D18( is there an S there also )I would be seeking something, because you just lost some real value and it will always be lower then it was before the neck re-set.Ship


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

As mentioned, a neck reset is a very invasive procedure and without refinishing work it's never going to be an invisible repair. Consider this- how bad was the situation before the reset? If it was unplayable than the reset made a 'worthless' guitar a playable instrument again.

Was the repair discussed at length with the shop to determine exactly what was going to be done, what they were able to deliver on and what your expectations were? Normally I would have spent time talking with them so that everyone was on the same page. 

gtrguy


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

*This is how it should have been done*

http://www.guitarspecialist.com/neck.htm
and none of the poblems you have experienced should have happened.Ship
If you click the pictures it would become larger for you to see of each step taken, now this is what it should have looked like.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Nice link, thanks for posting that one. For the original poster- what did they charge you for the job they did? I'd expect a job like the one pictured in the link to run at least $550-650 Canadian, perhaps a bit more.

gtrguy

*nevermind- I just realized the title says it was a warranty repair. That's a tricky one as you probably don't know what they were paid by the manufacturer but based on what I know, it's probably a less than they would charge a customer for a non-warranty neck reset. In most cases the manufacturer determines the price schedule for warranty repairs and it's rarely generous.


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## Mike MacLeod (Nov 27, 2006)

Very interesting website. One of the things that I find interesting is that the guitar had been subject to a previous neck reset and they seem to have been unaware of this at the outset of this repair. This suggests that other folks are able to do a very invasive repair without resulting in a visible invasion. Very Cool. It's nice to see that you don't have to saw through the fingerboard any more. This used to be the method of choice for many years and I always thought it was foolish.

It's been my experience that most folks repairing acoustic guitars are just not up to the task. All the good ones seem to want to do the "elite" thing and go make guitars. What we need are a bunch of really committed intelligent repair people and a few less mediocre guitar makers. Harrumph!! :-(

I'm sorry your repair was a disappointment to you. I would certainly download a few photos from the website and take them with you to show the repair shop when you lob in your molotov cocktail.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

Have you talked to the repair person or Martin about the issue?


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

Ship of fools said:


> http://www.guitarspecialist.com/neck.htm
> and none of the poblems you have experienced should have happened.Ship
> If you click the pictures it would become larger for you to see of each step taken, now this is what it should have looked like.


yup- but if you look, there is a bit of finish touch up going on there to make the repair as invisible as possible- he brushes lacquer onto the heel, sands and then buffs it out-
i would agree that the cosmetic issues should be dealt with properly, but many, even well known and highly respected repair shops, dont possess the skills or care enough to do a perfect job- the fact that its a warranty job creates an even larger grey area-
and as gtrguy points out, the work done in that link isnt your average $300 reset-


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

*Well okay fraser*

But the heel should not have been broken and there should be no gap, with all of the tools available it just comes down to them wanting money and not doing the job correctly and ruining his guitar in value and if the jobs calls for a touch up well them being the authorized repair for Martin should be able to do a neck re-set and any touch ups necessary or else they should have sent it to Martin and had them do it.
And the work done on that Martin is your average neck re-set, if you go to the link you can e-mail him and ask about the work he is very open to any questions and you'll see that a lot of repair shops maybe shouldn't be doing it if they can't complete the job, most luthiers will tell you that it is all part of their package of doing a neck re-set touch ups and all.Ship..............sorry fraser it just upsets me when you see that kind of work, when really it is not called for and de-valuing a guitar and not even a Hey I am sorry but it snapped.I wouldn't want that for anybody.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

Their website
www.12fret.com

I have a feeling either the repair person had a bad few days or/and (I know this is the case) they were extremely busy. Will post pics soon.


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## Adirondack (Mar 14, 2009)

Any chance to see some pics?


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## Mike MacLeod (Nov 27, 2006)

Let's try another path. 

It was repaired under a Martin Warranty by a Martin Warranty approved shop. Martin is therefore responsible for the job. Call Martin in Nazareth and chat with them. I would have some pictures ready for e-mailing their office and I would have your original receipt at hand to prove your Warranty.

If I were Martin, I would like to know that there is a doofus out there ruining my reputation. I know people who have sent 50 year old Martins back to the factory for repair. If it is a valid Warranty ie. you bought it new and can prove it, then you should be in fine shape.

In fact, I would box it up, drive across the border to a UPS depot and ship the guitar to Nazareth. With proof of warranty, they are obligated to fix any warrantable issues. 

But a phone call to Martin is cheap. Knowledge will also stand you in good stead when you approach your local guy.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

Mike MacLeod said:


> Let's try another path.
> 
> It was repaired under a Martin Warranty by a Martin Warranty approved shop. Martin is therefore responsible for the job. Call Martin in Nazareth and chat with them. I would have some pictures ready for e-mailing their office and I would have your original receipt at hand to prove your Warranty.
> 
> ...


+1

Your best chance for a satisfactory resolution is to stick to the facts and be armed with evidence that supports your case. You will get farther, faster, by being firm, but nice.

Before semi-retirement and shifting careers I spent my working life in Senior Mgmt. for multi-national electronics manufacturers. I was often seconded by the Pres. to resolve nasty customer service issues that had spiraled out of control. 

Consumers that came at me with both guns blazing caused me to pause and make sure I had all sides of the story before I made any commitment to resolution. My 30 years of experience taught me that "screamers" generally weren't presenting a balanced representation of the facts. 

On the other hand, someone who approached me with the facts (a good time line of events along with copies of work orders, notes and photos) and could articulate clearly what they would like done about the situation usually got tracked towards a speedy resolution.

A company that has spent years establishing a good reputation generally wants to protect it.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

*pics added*


































The flash accentuates scratches the tech caused.
The crack in the heel is not as visible to the nacked eye...the flash enhances it.

Re: How to complain....
I used to service photocopiers for over 3 decades - I know complaints and how to best present them.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

With the neck cracking like that it should have had the neck replaced....period .

I would be contacting Martin .


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## Adirondack (Mar 14, 2009)

ed2000 said:


> -the heel had cracked during neck removal, the crack mark is visible as a line in the finish-the rosewood at either side of the 12th fret has very dark filler to repair the, I assume, damage caused by pulling 12th fret- the side edges, top and bottom, of the fretboard sitting on the body have no clear finish( just bare rosewood)-the heel( neck)where it joins the end of the body and top area has a small 1/8" long gap the thickness of a sheet of paper.Is it normal, after a neck reset, the procedure will look obvious that work was done.....or will it appear as it left the factory?Correction:dark filler is at 15th fretgap is at body binding and heel


Tracing your input, this is what came to me, but I might be wrong.

- Looks like they did not steam enough & force it out too early.

- The dark filler might not be damage or chipped rosewood but filled to patch up 2 hole from steaming it out. looks like they drilled more than 2 holes OR a high watts soldering iron stayed too long at some point on the fret while trying to loosening it out. Chipping rosewood & Maple f/b are common when re-frettings.
- Should have re-finish the unbound neck at the "TOUNGUE" area. Is that white wood glue that they use judging from these pics? 1st & last are quite obvious.
* - I can't identify from the pic.Any way, the bottom of the toungue might not be thoroughly cleaned from the old glue and was reglued or not sufficient clamping beneath it. The guy might have forgotten to backup with a small wooden block beneath the tongue & clamp at the Traverse brace unknowlingly. 

It is 'NOT NORMAL' after a neck reset.

Take advice from Mike MacLeod, ronmac & nitehawk55.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

C'mon guys, it was only a $500 guitar in January 1977.

picky, picky.
This is my first and last good acoustic and there is sentimental value in it(2 years later, though, my girlfriend split) and I'm hesitant in making structural changes.

If the neck 'were' to be replaced - what would that do to the collectibility factor ( keeping in mind it's a low end Martin from the 70's) . To me the neck is as important as the body and replacing it would make it a 'franken-martin)


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

How's it play/sound post surgery?

gtrguy


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

*No it would*

Give you value to the guitar, and it would make the guitar look like it did before that crappy job, that to me my friend would be unexceptable by any strech of any imagination the neck was force and the fret baord was broken off as evident in the pictures , take it back and have them do it right, it might have cost you $500.00 back then but try to replace it today and see waht it would cost you in todays $'s you'll be unpleasnatly surprised to see the lost value because now you'd be lucky to get $300.00 for it the way it is, but it is up to you. and this will be my last word on the subject.Ship


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

looking at the pics- i agree that its not good- 
the guy didnt wipe off the glue that squeezed out of the joint when he clamped it? those scratches? geez.
the filler on the fretboard, thats not so bad, the guy couldve matched it better, but no biggee-
again, the finish touch ups, i can see, thats not a huge deal-
but that crack in the heel- the guy didnt take his time. thats shoddy workmanship- providing there was no fracture there to begin with.
it looks to be well repaired and stable tho-
if the guitar plays well, id send a email to martin, enclosing those pics. express your dissatisfaction, and enforce your sentimental attachment to the guitar- and unwillingness to replace it.
perhaps theyll make it up to you, you never know-


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

Ship of fools said:


> Give you value to the guitar, and it would make the guitar look like it did before that crappy job, that to me my friend would be unexceptable by any strech of any imagination the neck was force and the fret baord was broken off as evident in the pictures , take it back and have them do it right, it might have cost you $500.00 back then but try to replace it today and see waht it would cost you in todays $'s you'll be unpleasnatly surprised to see the lost value because now you'd be lucky to get $300.00 for it the way it is, but it is up to you. and this will be my last word on the subject.Ship


was the fretboard broken off? ed2000, from the pics it looks to me like they pulled the fret sloppily, took wood with it and filled the chips with something that doesnt match- the crack in the lacquer at the side of said fret could either be from again- a sloppy fret pull, or actually breaking the fretboard.
from your pics of that area, its a bit hard to tell- i just assumed they filled the fretboard chips and cracked the side lacquer in pulling the fret. 
if the fretboard was broken- then yeah lol- wow what a shitty neck reset.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

ed2000 said:


> C'mon guys, it was only a $500 guitar in January 1977.
> 
> picky, picky.
> This is my first and last good acoustic and there is sentimental value in it(2 years later, though, my girlfriend split) and I'm hesitant in making structural changes.
> ...



Replace it now and see what it's worth . 

If a replacement neck was done right I'll bet you could hardly tell . I'm sure Martin could match one up very close .


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

gtrguy said:


> How's it play/sound post surgery?
> 
> gtrguy


Other than the E and B having a little fret buzz when played hard, it sounds like always.
Time really flies...the reset was done in 2001, according to the statement, never really played it more than a couple of times a year, and in fact, still has the same strings from 2002 when the pins and saddle were replaced.
I have to admit that I never took a close look at the workmanship. He admitted he had problems with the neck. I felt they are the experts and did not question their integrity. It wasn't until recently when I started wearing reading glasses that I saw, close up and clearly, how messy the work was.
Is it normal for the fretboard to fall away quickly once you pass the 12th fret?
There seems to be a gently 'S' curve to the fretboard...when the first string is checked for relief there is clearance at the 7th fret...when fretted at the 12th the string gap at fret 20 is 1/8".

To quote the owners' booklet:
"All Martin Instruments are warrented to the original owner, without time limit, against defective material or *imperfect workmanship*"
We'll see soon.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

nitehawk55 said:


> Replace it now and see what it's worth .


How much? I've been out of the loop.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

ed2000 said:


> How much? I've been out of the loop.


Looks like the replacement cost would be around $1600 for a new one . Not sure on a 1977 if it would be considered vintage yet but if you do some Google searches you will see some older ones bringing some pretty big $$'s . Saw one from the late 40's for $8K


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

*Okay I know I said, ed2000*

But according to the blue book of acoustics it would run you around $1200 USD to replace it in todays market and possibly more.ship.........call Martin directly and explain and get an e-mail address and send then the pictures and I am sure they'll want to replace that neck and it will look as if it did when you first got it.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

It's going to be a tough ask to go looking for resolution on a problem that has gone unreported for ~8 years, don't you think?

I sympathize with the OP, and certainly don't condone the sloppy work performed, but it should have been dealt with a lot earlier, IMO.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

ronmac said:


> It's going to be a tough ask to go looking for resolution on a problem that has gone unreported for ~8 years, don't you think?
> 
> I sympathize with the OP, and certainly don't condone the sloppy work performed, but it should have been dealt with a lot earlier, IMO.


I've gotta agree here... 8 years later you notice it's not very good work?!

gtrguy


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

ed2000 said:


> Other than the E and B having a little fret buzz when played hard, it sounds like always.
> Time really flies...the reset was done in 2001, according to the statement, never really played it more than a couple of times a year, and in fact, still has the same strings from 2002 when the pins and saddle were replaced.
> I have to admit that I never took a close look at the workmanship. He admitted he had problems with the neck. I felt they are the experts and did not question their integrity. It wasn't until recently when I started wearing reading glasses that I saw, close up and clearly, how messy the work was.
> Is it normal for the fretboard to fall away quickly once you pass the 12th fret?
> ...


i did see a bit more fall away at the neck joint to body then seems normal- it shouldnt really be visible in a pic like that-








but then the pic could be exaggerating it, and as well, it couldve been an issue with the geometry of the rest of the guitar that necessitated such a drastic fall away.
ive never dealt with guitar warranty in any shape or form, if i had a lifetime guarantee on a guitar id still just fix it myself- but 8 years? i dunno-
good luck.


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

*well 8 years ago*

Unfortunately thats how they fixed them, they cut throught at the 15th fret and peeled off the fret baord from the top and they didn't have a neck puller that they have now, but I would still call Martin and see if they can do anything for you, as it was an authorized repair, they might make it good, unknown for sure, everybody I knew there are now gone so can't even ask for you, but its worth the drop of a quarter.Ship


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

Ship of fools said:


> Unfortunately thats how they fixed them, they cut throught at the 15th fret and peeled off the fret baord from the top and they didn't have a neck puller that they have now, but I would still call Martin and see if they can do anything for you, as it was an authorized repair, they might make it good, unknown for sure, everybody I knew there are now gone so can't even ask for you, but its worth the drop of a quarter.Ship


im not a martin tech, but 8 years ago i sure as hell didnt cut thru the fretboard. 18 years ago i wouldnt even have done that- Dan Erlewines books were available by then lol.
if yu have hands yu dont need a neck puller- not then, not now.
the fretboard extension is always peeled from the top, regardless, but there is no need to cut the neck, unless its a spanish heel- which that aint-:smile:


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Doesn't look cut to me... looks cracked. May have even happened while the neck was off as opposed to during the removal.

gtrguy


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

gtrguy said:


> Doesn't look cut to me... looks cracked. May have even happened while the neck was off as opposed to during the removal.
> 
> gtrguy


yeah, its a strange mystery that one- could just be the lacquer cracked from the fret removal-


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

The warranty will carry over regardless of time since the work was done . The Martin "lifetime" means just that and covers workmanship which is the issue here plain and simple . 
It was not done right so contact Martin , I would not bother with the 12th Fret at this point , explain it to the Martin rep and let them make the call on what will be done . This is nothing for a big company like that and my understanding is Martin is pretty good with looking after problems that may make their guitars/reputation look bad which this does . 

Perhaps they will give you a D45 just to make you happy :smile:


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

*Well I was wrong*

If you actually go back and look at the pics you'll see the crack was at the 14th fret ( not the 15th that I thought it was at ) and if you look at the bottom and the top pics you'll see that it is on both sides of the fret board, so when they peeled the fretboard it looks as if cracked off.
But none of this really matters, its just us looking at a poor repair. And hoping he manages to get it fixed.Ship


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

*The 12th Fret is happy with their repair*

Had a 12th Fret look at the repair and to quote the tech:
1) neck is stable with good alignment
2) area around bridge is good
3) in the 70's Martin used too much glue which resulted in the heel cracking during neck removal
4) spaces at neck joint - ok
5) unfinished edges on fretboard - ok
6) black marks at 15th fret - they can be removed (planed out) when a re-fret is done (in 2025, haa, haa).

When I mentioned the lowered resale value, the reply was " Well, it's had a neck reset".

Wonder what Martin will say when they are presented with the info from the 12th Fret repair.

ps. The D18 sounds and plays well...it just doesn't re-sell well.


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

*And isn't it funny*

Ain't it funny how everybody there will take no responsibility for a messed up job, if I were you I would forward the pics directly to Martin and see what they can do for you instead, and ask if they used to much glue to hold the neck on, that has to stand out as the dummest excuse I have ever heard in my lifehwopv and just because it had a neck re-set doesn't mean that value is lost, to me that would be the exact opposite because it already had a neck re-set means I don't have to worry about getting it done later down the road.Ship


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## Mike MacLeod (Nov 27, 2006)

Ship of fools said:


> ...and just because it had a neck re-set doesn't mean that value is lost ...Ship


I agree. A guitar is either; going to have a neck reset, or has already had one!! I would much rather have a playable 'Bone than an unplayable "original" guitar!! This makes a neck-reset a necessity - when required.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

*Value after neck reset*

What I meant to say:
If the neck reset had been done cleanly and without breaking the heel the resale value would not be affected.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

*Semi seized tuner*

I also mentioned about the very stiff 'B' string Grover tuner..he loosened the knob screw and said it's a little harder to turn than the others. Never said anything about the grease seeping out the cover. It still is considerably harder to turn. Seems to me performing warranty work for Martin is not worth their effort.
Are there any other Martin repair shops in the Toronto area?


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

ed2000 said:


> What I meant to say:
> If the neck reset had been done cleanly and without breaking the heel the resale value would not be affected.


Exactly !!....contact Martin with pics and info .


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

My email to Martin:

Hello
I bought a new D18 in '76.
Serial# 3562xx
In 2001 it needed a neck reset. I had it done at the 12th Fret in Toronto.
During the reset procedure the heel of the neck separated. When I questioned the tech about this mishap he stated that Martin used too much glue during the mid seventies which made it difficult to remove the neck. The repair has held well but I have no been able to find a buyer because of this repaired line in the heel. At this time I took the guitar back to them and I hope they can clean up the glue from the fretboard which had seeped from the 14th fret area. Also they will try to fix the bits of gap at the heel to body joint. 
Did that repair shop permanently mess up the appearance of the guitar? It still plays well, though. I can provide pics if you're interested.
Thanks
Ed 
Toronto





And the reply:



Thank you for contacting Martin with this inquiry.
As your guitar is back with the Service Center at this
time I am certain they will correct any that can be
corrected. Otherwise, they will contact Martin if they
feel it needs to come back to the factory.
Please keep in mind, when repairs are completed 
and everything is structurally sound, some repairs
may be visible due to the type of material we are 
working with.

Thank you for your interest in C. F. Martin & Co., Inc.

Sandy Trach
C. F. Martin & Co., Inc.
Customer Service



I just picked up the D18 from the 12th Fret from the re-repair.
-the fingerboard was tinted darker to hide the black seepage at the 14th
-the little neck to body gaps were filled
-the seized tuner was lubed

Conclusion: it sounds fantastic...when I play with my eyes closed!
I'll leave it for now because any more tinkering by 'techs' is sure to cause further woody woes.

ps: the pics make it look bad. It's only when you inspect it closely (as a prospective buyer would) that the slip ups show.
Thanks pickers, for all your input.
Ed


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## tinman (Feb 27, 2011)

I had my old d28 reset by autherized Martin repair person in London On. He strained the finish on the top, chipped and peiced the spruce at the fretboard extension, lifted half the rosset, lifted the binding near the neck, left cut marks in the sound hole, 1/4" chip in the finish on the back, used hide glue (should be carpenters glue) that was slopped inside the sound hole puddled on the inside back and to finish it off the neck was the wrong angle. I was furious and called Martin. Most athorized Martin repairmen are the very best however they will not let this guy do anymore repairs for them. I had no problem to get the damage repaired, however it did need a new neck and I got an Adirondak top upgrad. I took the guitar to Martin in Nazereth PA. took in the tour of the factory and then returned to pick it up. Great Company no Warrenty problems. Call Martin, if you can work out the issues and I feel you have a good case, take it to PA or pay the shipping both ways. I will never let anyone but Martin ever do a reset for me again. I lost a beautiful 23 year old top but now have a nice Adi top to play with. The guitar is now a D28P M M meaning modified.


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## cougar2 (Mar 10, 2007)

Wow! that really sounds bad, there is no reason for that mess. Maybe it's time for me to contact Martin to see if they need another tech for that area. They wouldn't give it to me before since he was taking care of that area already. 

Kwasnycia Guitars :: Handcrafted in Chatham, Ontario


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