# So, who uses a buffer?



## zurn (Oct 21, 2009)

I've been thinking of buying a buffer from Roadrage to get some high end chime back in my signal, have any of you tried using a buffer?

http://www.roadrageprogear.com/guitar_buffers.html


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2011)

When I use a board, I use a buffer. With the Axe-Fx it's just one cable in, so no buffer. But board, buffer -- always.


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## zurn (Oct 21, 2009)

iaresee said:


> When I use a board, I use a buffer. With the Axe-Fx it's just one cable in, so no buffer. But board, buffer -- always.


So do you put one between the guitar and 1st pedal as well as between last pedal and amp ?


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

I have an Axess buffer on my board. I'm happy with it. I've got it right at the front of the line before any pedals.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2011)

zurn said:


> So do you put one between the guitar and 1st pedal as well as between last pedal and amp ?


Usually the first or second pedal in my chain is either a buffer or buffered.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

i've never thought of using a buffer before.

every single one of my pedals is true bypass, BUT i have a large distance to cover.... 

guitar
25' coily
turbo tuner
69 fuzz
RAT WF RI
OCD v4
Carbon Copy
12' cable

I don't *think* I am losing any signal, but my ears are not well trained.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

25' coily? To quote Robert Munsch, "YIKES!!"

On the other hand, I understand how and why some folks will rely on the loading and cable capacitance properties of a cable like that for tone shaping. Particularly if distorted sounds are a big part of what they do.

If, however, you aim for clean tones, and you do not have a pedal with a buffered input at the start of your chain, that is always on, then it help to have a buffer stage. The best location for it, in terms of maximizing what it has to offer, is in the guitar, or something like the Tillman preamp cable ( http://www.till.com/articles/PreampCable/ ), so that it buffers against the negative effects of ALL cables in your signal path, and not just whatever comes after theat first cable to the pedalboard.

There are different sorts of buffers. The one players tend to focus on is buffering against the loading that the guitar itself might pose, but there is also the buffering used to address long cables going to the amp, like this one from Jack Orman ( http://www.muzique.com/lab/superbuff.htm ).

Pete Cornish has an interesting and informative, if somewhat biased, page on buffers and true-bypass at his site: http://petecornish.co.uk/case_against_true_bypass.html One should keep in mind that many of his clients function in festival/arena-sized stage environments, rather than 3 guys in the corner of a bar, so he's thinking in terms of a LOT of cable. Still he makes a very fair point.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2011)

blam said:


> i've never thought of using a buffer before.


Do you like the way you sound?

Cool.

Don't touch a thing then.

Follow your ears.


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## zurn (Oct 21, 2009)

The reason I'm looking to buy a buffer one is because my cheapo Behringer vibrato pedal seems to have a positive effect on my tone when it's in the chain, I gain some high end back so I'm guessing it has a buffer in it. If I put the pedal in bypass mode, I lose that clarity. Although it does add a little hiss to my signal chain, I still prefer it when it's on.


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## TWRC (Apr 22, 2011)

I have a couple of Boss pedals in my chain, a DD-7 and a GE-7 and they have built in buffers. I also believe that the Whammy IV has a buffer (correct me if I'm wrong) and the rest of my pedals are true bypass (not too sure about the Line 6 Verbzilla). I was thinking about employing a buffer but figure that the Boss pedals might be enough. 

blam, you should definitely get some shorter cables, you'll notice a HUGE difference.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Any pedal that uses solid-state switching will have an input and output buffer in there, because it HAS to. May not be the best buffer in the world, but it's there. If one's pedal chain consists of 2 or 3 pedals, no problem with respect to cumulative hiss or any "tone-sucking". But if you have a board with a dozen such pedals, that's the cumulative hiss of some 24 active stages, which MAY require more aggressive treatment of cumulative hiss.

BBD-based pedals like choruses, flangers, and delays, in addition to many phasers, do their "bypass" by simply blocking the delay signal and leaving the clean signal as is. It's not a "bypass" as much as "effect-cancelling". The amount of hiss will not change appreciably in bypass mode.

A good buffer at the start of one's signal path provides the option to use whatever sort of bypass scheme you want for the rest of the way. Once the guitar itself is buffered, then no benefit is added by more buffer stages being inserted, unless we're talking about something intended to increase the current of a penultimate signal about to traverse 100' of cable on the way to a power amp. 

The advantage of a stand-alone always-on buffer on the pedalboard or guitar or cable is that you don't have to rely on use of any effect to benefit from it. So, let's say you have a Boss compressor at the start of your chain, and a bunch of TB pedals after it, with a 20' cable to the compressor, and another from the board to the amp. Now, as long as your compressor is on, great, your signal is buffered, and regardless of what state the remaining pedals are in, whether on (all will have a low-impedance output when on) or in bypass mode, your guitar WILL be buffered, because the compressor has an always-on buffer. Should you take that compressor out of the path, for whatever reason, and all you have left are your TB pedals, your buffering is gone.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I have a Dr Scientist Cleanness, a booster/buffer.
I run it last in the chain going into the front of the amp.

It's kind of the master control for my dirt section, two birds.


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## zurn (Oct 21, 2009)

mhammer said:


> Any pedal that uses solid-state switching will have an input and output buffer in there, because it HAS to. May not be the best buffer in the world, but it's there. If one's pedal chain consists of 2 or 3 pedals, no problem with respect to cumulative hiss or any "tone-sucking". But if you have a board with a dozen such pedals, that's the cumulative hiss of some 24 active stages, which MAY require more aggressive treatment of cumulative hiss.
> 
> BBD-based pedals like choruses, flangers, and delays, in addition to many phasers, do their "bypass" by simply blocking the delay signal and leaving the clean signal as is. It's not a "bypass" as much as "effect-cancelling". The amount of hiss will not change appreciably in bypass mode.
> 
> ...


Thanks mhammer, btw I have read all your other posts on the subject as well (there are a lot of them). Since I don't want my Behringer pedal at the start of my chain, I'll probably get the Roadrage buffer then.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2011)

To clarify for me, I have a TS9 turbo near the start of my chain. Even when off it is a buffer?

So if I had a buffer and this pedal what happens? Does the pedal's buffer make the dedicated buffer redundant?

Is it possible to measure my signal to tell if I would benefit from a buffer or if something is not correct?


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2011)

Player99 said:


> To clarify for me, I have a TS9 turbo near the start of my chain. Even when off it is a buffer?


Yes.



> So if I had a buffer and this pedal what happens? Does the pedal's buffer make the dedicated buffer redundant?


Kind of. There are varying qualities in buffers. A dedicated buffer generally aims to be sonically neutral, linear across all frequencies. A buffered pedal...who knows?



> Is it possible to measure my signal to tell if I would benefit from a buffer or if something is not correct?


Sound good? Is good. Follow your ears!

It can be cool to play around with buffers to see what they can do to your tone though. In most cases they'll restore a lot of high end frequencies for you. Some people will like this (I do) some people won't.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

mhammer said:


> 25' coily? To quote Robert Munsch, "YIKES!!"
> 
> On the other hand, I understand how and why some folks will rely on the loading and cable capacitance properties of a cable like that for tone shaping. Particularly if distorted sounds are a big part of what they do.


 25' is the full stretched length. not the coiled length. its also low capacitance. (Lava cable) I've done A/B testing, and I did not notice a difference, but as mentioned, I do not have great ears for stuff like that. I did have a Radial A/B/Y at one point and DID notice the B channel sucked a lot of tone. but other than that I've never noticed tone sucking. not to any appreciative level anyways. 



iaresee said:


> Do you like the way you sound?
> 
> Cool.
> 
> ...


I actually have no problems with how my rig sounds  which is probably why I've never looked into a buffer.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Player99 said:


> To clarify for me, I have a TS9 turbo near the start of my chain. Even when off it is a buffer?
> 
> So if I had a buffer and this pedal what happens? Does the pedal's buffer make the dedicated buffer redundant?
> 
> Is it possible to measure my signal to tell if I would benefit from a buffer or if something is not correct?


pedals like the TS9 actually have TWO always-on buffers, one on the in and one on the out. Whether your pedal/LED is on or off, the signal path always goes through them. Keep in mind that manufacturers design these things under the working assumption that you have absolutely NO other pedals.

As Ian correctly notes, that does make an outside buffer redundant....BUT...

As more people opt for more such pedals, opt for lots of them,, and also opt for complex conjunctions of effects, what they increasingly turn to are loop selectors that allow one to patch in a bunch of pedals (of whatever bypass format) and select/deselect all of them at once. Over on the DIY stompbox forum and at the Music Electronics Forum, we regularly see posts from people who want to know how to rehouse pedal X, Y, and Z in a new chassis to change over to true bypass, or to place something like a cheaper pedal than came in a plastic chassis into something with a stompswitch that provides better tactile feedback. The equally regular recommendation is to leave the effect in its current chassis, and look into building or buying a loop selector, where you can deselect the loop to let you "prep" one or more pedals in series, and then bring the whole lot of them in with one stomp, with all of the "purity" of true bypass, and without having to risk problems if rehousing a board.

Those loop selectors, in turn, MAY have a buffer in them, but many will not, especially if they are homebrew things. In which case, if you completely true bypass all your pedals, including those with always-on buffers in them, you're back to the guitar->cable->bypass station->cable->amp scenario, which is exactly what the buffering is intended to mitigate against.

So, in that sense, a single no-way-you're-ever-getting-around-it always-on buffer stage, whether in the guitar, cable, or pedalboard, offers the greatest flexibility as to what sorts of pedals and configurations you may use in the future. True, it may be redundant, but it won't be counterproductive, and will assure that you can monkey around with everything else and never find yourself in a situation where, oops, you're suddenly feeding a long cable with a high impedance signal.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

I am pretty sure the Boss pedal tuners have buffers in them. It makes my Germanium fuzz sound like poop!


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2011)

hardasmum said:


> I am pretty sure the Boss pedal tuners have buffers in them. It makes my Germanium fuzz sound like poop!


They do. True of all Boss pedals.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

hardasmum said:


> I am pretty sure the Boss pedal tuners have buffers in them. It makes my Germanium fuzz sound like poop!


You mean a buffer can turn a Boss pedal into a Metasonix pedal? Just kidding. You gotta admit, though, that some of their ad copy sorta sounds like that!: http://metasonix.com/TX2.htm


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

out of curiousity, of those of you using buffers how long is your chain? 

i have a 20' lava coil
tuner
fuzz
OD
Dist
delay
12' cable
amp


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Usually it is like this:

Guitar>
> 20' Cable>
> BS2 buffer>
> loop selector/tuner out> 
> tuner (not in the signal chain)
Loop send > wah/OD/Leslie Sim/OD/Si Fuzz/Ge Fuzz/Univibe> Loop Return>
> delay>
>6' cable>
>amp

That's at least 40' of cable and 20 connections.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

wow O_O

that's quite the chain... I guess mine isn't much shorter. 32' of cable and 5 pedals connections. I was considering a looper last month and now you guys are all up in my head about this buffer business now.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2011)

blam said:


> out of curiousity, of those of you using buffers how long is your chain?
> 
> i have a 20' lava coil
> tuner
> ...


30' of cable (20' + 10') and then 4-5 pedals and their interconnects. Easily 40'. Lots of plugs (crossing interfaces is terrible for signals). And then don't forget the wires in the pedals, those count too.


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## Guest (Oct 28, 2011)

mhammer said:


> You mean a buffer can turn a Boss pedal into a Metasonix pedal? Just kidding. You gotta admit, though, that some of their ad copy sorta sounds like that!: http://metasonix.com/TX2.htm


I would not put a pedal on my board that has a large cartoon of a guy bent over, naked,pants around his ankles with his butt in the air about to have an alien shove something up it... not my style.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Player99 said:


> I would not put a pedal on my board that has a large cartoon of a guy bent over, naked,pants around his ankles with his butt in the air about to have an alien shove something up it... not my style.


Maybe the Scrotum Smasher would be more to your liking...

http://www.sonicftp.com/news/images/metasonix_scrotumsmasher.jpg


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## Guest (Oct 29, 2011)

Sneaky said:


> Maybe the Scrotum Smasher would be more to your liking...
> 
> http://www.sonicftp.com/news/images/metasonix_scrotumsmasher.jpg


Much better, I just ordered 3.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The ad copy on their stuff is just plain weird, as is their product naming and graphics. If your idea of a guitar solo is the cacaphony in the Matthew Good song "Hello Time Bomb" (which I actually like, but it's not the sort of thing you listen to all the time or play all the time), then Metasonix stuff is for you.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

mhammer said:


> The ad copy on their stuff is just plain weird, as is their product naming and graphics. If your idea of a guitar solo is the cacaphony in the Matthew Good song "Hello Time Bomb" (which I actually like, but it's not the sort of thing you listen to all the time or play all the time), then Metasonix stuff is for you.


Trent Reznor uses a bunch of their, um... "junk" in his rack. They do take the silly names and graphics a bit too far IMO.


I'll bet he has a buffer too. :banana:


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## georgemg (Jul 17, 2011)

blam said:


> out of curiousity, of those of you using buffers how long is your chain?


My path is tuner > buffer (Axess BS2) > comp > OD > distortion > delay. Not that long really, but if I take the buffer out it's a noticable difference (to me at least). It's duller without a buffer. 

I use the unaffected sound quite often (just the amp, no pedals), so the buffer helps get the sound closer to being plugged in straight to the amp. It's not identical, but it's a lot closer. I find the OD and distortion sound better with the buffer in the chain as well, since they're affecting a tone that is more 'neutral' sounding.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The test I always recommend to people is to plug your guitar in directly to the amp using the shortest possible cable you own/have. Then plug the guitar in using the longest cable you have, and where possible, cascading two long cables through a true-bypass pedal so it acts like an even longer cable. You'll hear quite a difference. THAT's what buffers do for you.


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## Guest (Oct 30, 2011)

Is it possible to eq your amp to compensate for the loss, or is it just tone gone bad?


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## georgemg (Jul 17, 2011)

It's hard to add back something that's not there. If you try to artificially add high end back, it won't sound as full or natural (in that range) since your amp will emphasis certain frequencies differently than what was in your original signal. Plus, adding high end tends to add noise. 

If you find the buffer is making your sound too bright, or at least brighter than you are used to, it's easier to roll off some of the high end. There's less of a negative impact if you do that.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

+1 to george's comments. Spot on.

As an aside, I'll simply note that AFAIC, one of the many reasons why exciter pedals (Aphex, etc.) never took off was because you needed to feed them with top end to get anything noticeable out of them, and all that extra top end needs to be able to reach the guitar amp. People would plug into them with some long cable, using humbuckers, strum, and go "Is this thing on?".


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## Clean Channel (Apr 18, 2011)

Quite some time ago I decided to add a buffer to the start of my chain. It made a HUGE difference! I vote you pick up that buffer from Roadrage. I currently have the Little Buffer from Montreux:


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## Twanger (Mar 21, 2008)

...


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

mhammer said:


> The test I always recommend to people is to plug your guitar in directly to the amp using the shortest possible cable you own/have. Then plug the guitar in using the longest cable you have, and where possible, cascading two long cables through a true-bypass pedal so it acts like an even longer cable. You'll hear quite a difference. THAT's what buffers do for you.


I was afraid to try it to be honest, but as it turns out, I've been losing A LOT of my high end. 



Twanger said:


> If I always have at least one pedal on near the beginning of the chain does this work to buffer the signal?
> 
> I don’t have a bufferat the start of my chain but I do have one at the end, provided by an XoticX-Blender that’s always on.
> 
> ...


my tele is also very bright sounding even with lots of high end roll off


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

blam said:


> I was afraid to try it to be honest, but as it turns out, I've been losing A LOT of my high end.


Scary, isn't it? There IS something to be said for better vs worse cables, but a decent buffer can help to overcome the effects of lesser cable.

What I can't figure out is how a guy like Albert Collins could use an "unassisted" 100 foot cable to walk out into the audience (and sometimes outside the club!) and still get an unbelievably stinging tone from his Tele. Not clear in a Robert Cray kind of way, mind you, but bright enough to singe your eyebrows.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I hadn't noticed it before, but Jack Orman has a nice little "lab note" on implementing buffered bardwire bypass.: http://www.muzique.com/lab/tsbuff.htm

The document focusses on the TS9, but the logic is actually applicable to a great many pedals. The notion is that one can make productive use of *one* of the buffers in an otherwise JFET-switched pedal, using a DPDT switch. Keep in mind that the buffers within an electronically-switched pedal are designed under the presumption that there will not be any disconnection from the input or output jacks. Disconnecting and reconnecting to the .027uf input cap shown in the diagram would produce a fairly audible pop with each switching action, because the cap is not provided with a path to drain off *until* something is plugged into the input jack. 

If the (added) bypass switching disconnected the input and output jacks, as in the "true bypass" approach, that (otherwise unterminated) .027uf cap would be popping just the way it thumps every time you plug in. jack's suggested mod allows for the buffer stage to do its thing, without requiring that input AND output buffers be used, and without any audible popping. neat idea.


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## georgemg (Jul 17, 2011)

mhammer said:


> I hadn't noticed it before, but Jack Orman has a nice little "lab note" on implementing buffered bardwire bypass.: http://www.muzique.com/lab/tsbuff.htm


Interesting. I'm redoing my grab-and-go pedalboard, which is on a PT Mini. I don't have room for a dedicated buffer, so I was planning on using my Boss TU-2 to provide a buffered signal - this may be an even better option. Thanks!


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