# Question for Canadian visit



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

Hi guys (and girls), I'm pretty new here as a poster. Long time lurker though. I bought a Larrivee D-03R because of this forum. lol 

Anyway, I live in California. This summer my sister and I are going to Canada for sort of a vacation because we've both always wanted to check it out. We're even thinking, if we really like it, about potentially moving up there in a few years. 

We're going to Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, and Toronto. So I'm wondering if anyone could tell me which places to go while we're there? Anything we should skip? Any input would be appreciated.


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Your itinerary is going to keep you pretty busy hitting all those cities. I live about an hour from Toronto so that is my main stomping grounds. The downtown core would keep you busy for a whole day at least. Niagara Falls is only 1.5 hour drive from Toronto so that would be a nice day for you if you have time. Hockey Hall of Fame is a great venue in Toronto, if you are in to hockey.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

It's all wonderful. What is your idea of something memorable about a place to visit? Do you want food, art, majestic scenery, "action", festivals, vegan hippy Berkeley-style weird stuff, small town, bright lights big city, pastoral scenes, stuff you've never seen before ever, "the classics"? And how do you plan to travel: bus, car, train, bike, plane?

As George Costanza would say, "Details, Jerry, I want details!!"


----------



## fudb (Dec 8, 2010)

Vancouver. Art gallery (on robson st VAG), be sure to people watch while sitting on the steps. Up and down Robson st to see the world class shopping and almost as many Starbucks as there is in some parts of California. head back to Granville st. head north three blocks to visit Tom Lee Music, one of Vancouver's two mega big box store type deals. Keep north but don't cross the bridge, go down to the water and take a seacab (cool little boat) to Granville island, there's basically a quay there that has another great gallery and the emily carr school as well as great shops and food. If you head north out of the island, three or four blocks around there are dedicated to high end auto sales, great stuff to stroll around. if you get up to Broadway, you'll pass NJAMS a great great store and get to the new L&M superstore (I haven't seen it yet myself, been a while since I was in vancouver). There's a lot of other great stuff. Ask locals if you have time.. Kitsalano has beautiful beach areas and relaxed strolling/shopping. Commercial drive has hippies. And tapas... North Van is beautiful.. PoCo... there's really a lot to see. One of the world's great cities I think. The best bar: the Cambie Hotel

Calgary you MUST rent a car, don't even try to see the city by transit, it's almost hopeless. There's a great downtown, there's the indoor gardens and the +10 system. There's Axe music and L&M superstore and several other great shops.. There's the Nose Hill parks, they're really nice walking in the summer. There's the Stampede if you're there at the right time. Lots of casinos. Calgary tower. Oh there's a really cool keyboard museum there. Best bar: the Ship and Anchor

Edmonton I've only visited a couple times don't know it. It famously has the world's largest shopping mall.

Toronto has the CN tower, CNE, the ROM (Royal ontario museum), Art gallery of Ontario, the downtown core is massive.. there's great music store,s, L&M superstore on Bloor, there's also 12th fret with great stuff and Capsule music. Best bar: I'm gonna say the Horseshoe, although there's a few good contenders.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

What type of thing are you most interested in? For example, are you interested in scenic views, history, art, night life, etc? Give us an idea and you'll get better input. Also, do you know how long you're going to be staying in each city?


----------



## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Hmm in the Toronto area places of interest could be:
Casa Loma GREAT view of the city from up there, and the tale of Casa Loma is as "Canadian" as Trailer Park Boys, Corner Gas, and Red Green.
Home | AGO Art Gallery of Ontario Art Gallery of Ontario. 
Royal Ontario Museum | Tourism attraction for family fun, group tours & school visits in Toronto The Royal Ontario Museum. We simply got the family membership, it is not a place you will see everything in one visit.
Ontario Science Centre: Home Honestly, it is an "ok" place to visit, but I wouldn't make it a "must see"

Burlington:
Royal Botanical Gardens - Home Royal Botanical Gardens. Not been there in years. Probably should go again, this is where the Mrs and I got married, and that at a time it simply wasn't done to be married there among the gardens LOL

Hamilton:
City of Hamilton - Dundurn Castle
City of Hamilton - Hamilton Museum of Steam & Technology

Niagara Falls:
Butterfly Conservatory | Niagara Parks, Niagara Falls Canada


Those are my "recommendations", but for each other them there are at least 10 more "other places to check out" too. Canada is a fair bit different than the USA for "show" and for "size", our attractions tend to be less overstated and smaller than many of the US attractions. Honestly, if you are in Toronto, I really would suggest a stop at Casa Loma simply for the superb view of the city  all other aspects aside the view I find to be very picturesque.


----------



## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

If your into Majestic Great scenery and the outdoors, I stongly recomend while in Calgary, when heading north to Edmonton take the HWY 1 west through Canmore, Banff, Lake Louise and then the Columbia Icefields Parkway to Jasper. Absolutely Breath taking views. Consider Renting a Rv in Calgary and take a couple of 3 days for the trip, for that matter. Lots of stops along the way to take Postcard quality Pics of the mountain scenery, Wildlife, Helicopter tours you name it. or rent the rv in Vancouver and drive east through the Canadian Rockies. It's some of the most Breathtaking scenery to be had in the world!


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

Wow, thanks for the input guys. I'm taking notes. lol 

I'm mainly into museums and scenery of any kind, like in Vancouver Gas Town and Stanley park sounds cool to me. My sister is into shopping and night life so we're going to do a combination. Two of my cousins are going with us, one has the same interests as me and one the same as my sister so it works out well. 

We'll be in Vancouver for 3 days, Calgary for 2, Edmonton for 2 and Toronto for 4 (3 1/2 really). I know we wont get to see everything in each city but that's alright. Thanks for all the help guys.


----------



## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

To bad you could not fly to Vancouver then Fly out of Calgary to Toronto, it the stuff in between those two citys that will blow your mind.

If it was me I would spend 1.5 days in Vancouver, a slow drive to Calgary stopping over night in the Okanagan visiting the ice feilds, Banff, Revelstoke and places in between. 1 day in Calgary then spend the rest of the time in T.O.

What time of year are you comming for your visit?
Once you get to Toronto feel free to get in touch with me, I can help you with your plans and show you around if you like.


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Just move here and be done with it


----------



## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i live in toronto (also an american) 

definitely follow keeper of the good's advice. it's spot on. i would only add that public transportation to all those attractions is pretty good, and it's easy to navigate. certainly makes visiting them easier than with a car. you can buy a day pass for $10 and on the weekends it allows 2 adults and 2 kids, all under the one pass.

that won't get you out to niagra falls though. and if you're this far, seeing the canadian side, even if you've seen it 10 times already, is something you should do. also, the butterfly conservatory rocks.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Is there anything more beautiful than this? (My kids in a wheat field, south of Regina)


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

mhammer said:


> Is there anything more beautiful than this? (My kids in a wheat field, south of Regina)


This comes to mind


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Hey keeper .. ever been to Whitehern? I could spend days in there. 

Whitehern Museum Archives - Home


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

Bevo said:


> To bad you could not fly to Vancouver then Fly out of Calgary to Toronto, it the stuff in between those two citys that will blow your mind.
> 
> If it was me I would spend 1.5 days in Vancouver, a slow drive to Calgary stopping over night in the Okanagan visiting the ice feilds, Banff, Revelstoke and places in between. 1 day in Calgary then spend the rest of the time in T.O.
> 
> ...


Sorry, I guess I should've mentioned how we're getting from city to city because actually we are doing something similar to that. 

Flying to Vancouver > Driving Calgary > Driving to Edmonton > Flying to Toronto > Flying back to California

So between Vancouver and Calgary there's a lot of stuff to see on a drive? 

We're going there this summer. I believe between June 13-24. 

Thanks for the offer! I might have to take you up on that. =)


----------



## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

Depends on which way you go there is so much to see out here in BC it boggles the mind especially once you go through the Rockies ( our mountain range that seperate BC from Alberta ). Heck 3 days here is not enough to see anything your first day will be Whistler village and Cypress Mountain and the lower mainland ( gas town and Stanley park, Van Dusen Gardens ) and lets not forget you need a day over in Victoria, BC's Capital city and the Museum there is spectacular along with the inner harbour and some of the boat tours ( whale watching and such, wow ).and then as you drive you'll need a day or three once you get to the Okanogan to visit all the wineries ( some of the very best in the world ) and the drive will just freak you out in terms of scenery on your drive to either Edmonton or Calgary first. Where else in the world can you go from mountains to desert to trees by the millions and the lakes and such in only 2 1/2 hours, no where else in Canada.Ship...........................oh the the airport here is something spectacular also when you come in over the Ocean and you can see a lot of the Vancouver area, UBC the Richmond area ( my area ) and then the drive through town to downtown if its sunny well those mountains to pretty to describe.


----------



## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

I have to concur on driving through British Columbia - many great vistas and excellent roads to boot. I recall reading some time ago about a guide to the best motorcycle tours in N. America and BC boasts something like 85% of the top Canadian roadways. Just sayin...


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I would forget most of Calgary and spend more time in the Banff/Lake Louise area. It is beautiful there and lots of wildlife to see as well.

There is a pass available in Toronto that takes in the Royal Ontario Museum, the CN Tower, the Toronto Zoo, the Science Centre w/Imax Theatre and the Casa Loma for $59.00 or half price. Here is the link. Toronto CityPASS® | Visit 5 Toronto attractions for just $59, a $119.18 value!

There is also a Toronto Hippo tour bus that tours Toronto both by land and water. Link here. Amphibious Tours of Toronto - Toronto Hippo Tours

And here is another link for the top ten tourist attractions for Toronto. The old Distillery District is, in my opinion, something you should spend an afternoon or evening seeing. It's a pretty unique area. Top 10 Toronto Tourist Attractions and Highlights


----------



## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

If you have the time, do the southern route thru B.C......Van. thru Manning Park to Osoyoos thru Rock Creek to Ft. McLeod then north to Calgary and Edmonton. It's a bit slower paced and very scenic. It's a good trip on a motorcycle. Makes the north Cali. coast look like a straight road. Lot less traffic, interesting little towns, good food along the way with wineries and lakes about the time you plan to stop. If you want to see Banff, turn north just past Cranbrook then east at either Radium or Golden. Once past Calgary go to Drumheller. That should do about week if you do it right. 2 1/2 days if you're in a rush.


----------



## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Lots of beautiful scenery, Mountains and stuff between Vancouver & Calgary.
Skip Edmonton and spend more time in the mountains. If you can take Highway 40 through the Kananskis. Absolutely stunning.

The keyboard museum mentioned before is most likely a reference to the Cantos one


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Not to take anything away from Banff, but a short side-trip to Emerald Lake (a bit west of Banff on the BC side) is well worth the effort ( Emerald Lake Lodge - Romantic Mountain Getaways in Canada ).

At the same time, assuming the traveller is only going in the one direction, the trip along highway 3, near the BC/Washington border is quite nice, and the emergence from Crowsnest Pass into the rolling hills of southern Alberta is equally picturesque. It is a much longer drive than that along the Trans-Canada via the more northerly route, due to its twisty windy path and the generally slower speed limit, but lovely in its own way. Plus, it involves passing through Osoyoos, which will undoubtedly make any visitor from California scratch their head and wonder how in the dickens they ended up back in California.


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

You guys are awesome! 

You've given me a lot of places and routes to check out. I thank all of you for that. I do like scenery. I live in a rural part of California at the foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains so that stuffs just fine with me. 

I heard it gets humid in places like Toronto in the summer. Does that sound about right? It doesn't get like southern US humid does it because of it does I'll have to dress light. lol


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There is nowhere in Canada that gets as oppressively humid as New Orleans or, say, Houston/Galveston. Downtown Hamilton is one of the exceptions, and gets what is called a "pressure inversion" that can make you feel like you're wading hip-deep in Vaseline on some days. It might rain a lot in Vancouver (like it does in Seattle) but the west coast tends to have less oppressive temperatures to accompany it.

Although the trip can be mighty lonesome, and a might scary at night, the highway that skirts the north and eastern side of Lake Superior is really something. There are parts north of Sault St. Marie where you'd swear you were in the Pacific Northwest; but for the missing totems and whales, same wonderful vistas.

I recommend renting the film "one Week", starring Fringe's Joshua Jackson ( One Week (2008) - IMDb ). It's a drama, but it is also a wonderful travelogue, as Jackson's character, diagnosed with cancer, decides to take a motorcycle ride out to the coast to get his life sorted out. There are some truly wonderful moments of Canadiana in it, and a lot of inside Canadian jokes (e.g., a couple of guys from Newfoundland who bet a buddy back home a two-four that they could make it across the country on the bikes they bought from Canadian Tire), and serious, I mean *serious*, hommage to the Stanley Cup.

I drove my family from Ottawa to Victoria and back the summer of 2004, and the film provided many fine moments for us to reminisce over.

P.S.: If you're out Calgary way, headed east, the Royal Tyrrell Museum in Drumheller, about an hour east of Calgary in the badlands, is one of the finest and most extensive fossil collections anywhere in the world. English is a minority language in the parking lot and cafeteria there, since folks come from all over the world to see it. Royal Tyrrell Museum. And if you pass through Swift Current, ask around for "Gramma Bep's" Tea House. She makes a fabulous Saskatoon-berry pie, and although I doubt we're related, her last name is Hammer also (Swift Current appears to be the epicentre of the Hammer universe). http://www.grammabep.com/


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

mhammer said:


> There is nowhere in Canada that gets as oppressively humid as New Orleans or, say, Houston/Galveston. Downtown Hamilton is one of the exceptions, and gets what is called a "pressure inversion" that can make you feel like you're wading hip-deep in Vaseline on some days. It might rain a lot in Vancouver (like it does in Seattle) but the west coast tends to have less oppressive temperatures to accompany it.


How about humid compared to New York or Philadelphia in the summer? lol

I've taken everyones posts and put them in a word document to help us decide where to go and what to see. A fossil collection would be awesome to me and my cousin because we're into that sort of that, I don't know if my sister would be up for it but I'll try to convince her.


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Presto1202 said:


> You guys are awesome!
> 
> You've given me a lot of places and routes to check out. I thank all of you for that. I do like scenery. I live in a rural part of California at the foothills of the Sierra Nevada mountains so that stuffs just fine with me.
> 
> I heard it gets humid in places like Toronto in the summer. Does that sound about right? It doesn't get like southern US humid does it because of it does I'll have to dress light. lol


It can at times get horrendously humid in places like Toronto. But this is not the norm shall we say. We have had some really bad summers and some very nice. If you get the right conditions you will get the humidity.


----------



## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

When your see the sign for Rogers pass near Golden in BC stop at the fuel rest station at the bottom and go to the park behind.
Just sit back and look around and think of where you are, that is something else!

rogers pass bc - Google Search
Hey, we should tell him about the Wawa Goose and all the other roadside attractions..


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

GuitarsCanada said:


> It can at times get horrendously humid in places like Toronto. But this is not the norm shall we say. We have had some really bad summers and some very nice. If you get the right conditions you will get the humidity.


Is that because of proximity to Lake Ontario?


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

Bevo said:


> When your see the sign for Rogers pass near Golden in BC stop at the fuel rest station at the bottom and go to the park behind.
> Just sit back and look around and think of where you are, that is something else!
> 
> rogers pass bc - Google Search
> Hey, we should tell him about the Wawa Goose and all the other roadside attractions..


Is that a real goose or like going snipe hunting? lol


----------



## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Hahahaha No, no Boojums here.

Mark is SO RIGHT about the lower half of Hamilton (Oh there is a link, I gotta find it will post it shortly). The inversions in summer there are horrible!

Canadians, as I said, do things smaller and more understated than the USA. Fairly sure this started here and moved south, there are places in the USA that do the same SILLY and have a good time doing so 

Though I have been there a few times, I have none of my own photos to show, but they are about on the net. There are more than a few of such BIG sights to encounter here in Ontario, not sure if it is nation wide, be interested in hearing from the others on that


----------



## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

There is a feature here in Ontario that is ... hard to internalize until you see it. Most cities call the top of this feature a "mountain" but it is only about 500 feet up at the high points. What it is is the dirt ridge from the last ice age, called the Niagara Escarpment. Lots of features, exposures, and "etc" about it.

Niagara Escarpment Commission - Home



> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The Niagara Escarpment is recognized as one of the world's unique natural wonders. Essentially, it is a landform -- a ridge of rock several hundred metres high in some locations -- stretching 725 kilometres (450 miles) from Queenston on the Niagara River to Tobermory at the tip of the Bruce Peninsula. Today, in Ontario, the Escarpment contains more than 100 sites of geological significance including some of the best exposures of rocks and fossils of the Silurian and Ordovician Periods (405 to 500 million years old) to be found anywhere in the world. [/FONT]


There is simply too much to say in a post, some reading is needed to really get a sense of what there is for visitors. Since there are (according to the web site see that quote) some 100 points of interest along the Escarpment for visitors to see/engage some looking into it would be needed


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

keeperofthegood said:


> Hahahaha No, no Boojums here.
> 
> Mark is SO RIGHT about the lower half of Hamilton (Oh there is a link, I gotta find it will post it shortly). The inversions in summer there are horrible!
> 
> ...


I don't mind understated at all. Like I said, I live in a rural part of California right next to the Sierra Nevada mountains halfway between Fresno and Bakersfield. The town has 50k people and, though I like visiting big cities (lived in Orange County as a kid), I prefer towns of under 100k people for living in. Here's it's not unheard of to see someone riding horses down the street. In fact, some of the places in the pictures I've seen from you guys look kinda like the Yosemite/Sequoia National Forests which are a fairly short drive into the mountains for me. Except you guys seem to have more snow and bluer lakes. That's awesome to me.


----------



## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Totally awesome and true too! Interesting to note, here in Ontario, our MOST south point is Point Pelee which shares the same geography as the boarder of California and Oregon. Population wise, I have no idea how towns/cities sort themselves out here. Where I am, in Burlington (sorta the Toronto side of the drive between Toronto and Niagara Falls) is so built up that you dont really see one city after the other as you drive around this area.

LOL and this year England has beaten us for snow :B hahahaha Even New Mexico and Florida has had more snow than we have here!!


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

keeperofthegood said:


> Totally awesome and true too! Interesting to note, here in Ontario, our MOST south point is Point Pelee which shares the same geography as the boarder of California and Oregon. Population wise, I have no idea how towns/cities sort themselves out here. Where I am, in Burlington (sorta the Toronto side of the drive between Toronto and Niagara Falls) is so built up that you dont really see one city after the other as you drive around this area.
> 
> LOL and this year England has beaten us for snow :B hahahaha Even New Mexico and Florida has had more snow than we have here!!


I just realized you guys spell boarder differently than we do (border). Do you also put a u after your o's like they do in England? I better get used to that so I don't misspell things while I'm there. lol 

In LA, San Fracisco and San Diego it's like you describe there, where you go right from one city into another. Where I live it's not like that. Once you leave LA and travel north you'll see a small town (except Bakersfield and Fresno) every 20-30 miles or so from the mountains through the valley it basically stays like that until you reach the outskirts of San Francisco about 6 hours later. My town is one of those towns in between. 

New Mexico and Florida had more snow? That's funny. I keep telling my family members it's not like it's always snowing up there with a bunch of polar bears running around but I don't think they'll shake that image until they're there.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Presto1202 said:


> I just realized you guys spell boarder differently than we do (border). Do you also put a u after your o's like they do in England? I better get used to that so I don't misspell things while I'm there. lol


Yes, we spell things *properly* (nyuk nyuk), if that's what you mean. And although we do have "boarders", the term refers to people like Shaun White, or alternatively, if you're from down east, single guys who rent a room from an old grumpy lady. The boundaries between nations or provinces are "borders". (Consider your chain officially yanked)



> In LA, San Fracisco and San Diego it's like you describe there, where you go right from one city into another. Where I live it's not like that. Once you leave LA and travel north you'll see a small town (except Bakersfield and Fresno) every 20-30 miles or so from the mountains through the valley it basically stays like that until you reach the outskirts of San Francisco about 6 hours later. My town is one of those towns in between.


There are plenty of regions where there is simply no letup between municipalities, similar to the northeastern seaboard. But there are also places that are every bit as barren and unpopulated as Montana. The stretch between Medicine Hat and Swift Current is about 4 solid hours of horizon and nothing else.


> New Mexico and Florida had more snow? That's funny. I keep telling my family members it's not like it's always snowing up there with a bunch of polar bears running around but I don't think they'll shake that image until they're there.


We lived in Victoria for 5 years, and in that time, we had a grand total of 3 weeks altogether where there was snow on the ground, and believe me there wasn't enough to shovel. There are actually deserts in the middle of BC.

If you pass through Saskatchewan, there is a drive-in theatre in Wolseley. We missed watching Spiderman 2 by about 30 minutes when we drove through there. That must be something to watch a movie under the prairie sky. It is a VERY big sky.

The Royal Tyrrell is quite the experience, as is the entire town of Drumheller. The badlands surrounding it are very much like what you see on the western edge of North Dakota. Here's a trucker's video of the place, from his dashboard. YouTube - DRUMHELLER IN A PETERBILT


----------



## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

mhammer said:


> The Royal Tyrrell is quite the experience, as is the entire town of Drumheller. The badlands surrounding it are very much like what you see on the western edge of North Dakota. Here's a trucker's video of the place, from his dashboard. YouTube - DRUMHELLER IN A PETERBILT


Some cool stuff in & around Drumheller--but don't ignore Dinosaur Provincial Park--less touristy, and every bit as cool as the Drumheller area--in some ways even more so. This is a picture from that area.
And here are some more.
It's not too far off the TransCanada--north of Brooks.


----------



## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

shoretyus said:


> Hey keeper .. ever been to Whitehern? I could spend days in there.
> 
> Whitehern Museum Archives - Home


Not yet but soon now :B


LOL Yes, boarders and borders is my they're and there and their.

Weather is a national past time in Canada, one of our big celebrities is a climatologist. 



> *David Phillips (climatologist)*
> 
> From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> Jump to: navigation, search
> *David Phillips*, CM is one of Canada's most knowledgeable weather experts. He is a Senior Climatologist for Environment Canada, a spokesperson for the Meteorological Service of Canada, and the author of several books. He has received several awards for his work. He is widely known both for his knowledge of weather and climate, and for his ability to convey information to an audience.


When I was little, we used to say "if you don't like the weather here, cross the road", and in Niagara Falls where I grew up it was very common to have sunshine on one side of the street and downpours on the other with a sharp line of wet/dry down the tarmac.

Every time Mark talks about going cross Canada I wish I was still driving!! Here in the "Golden Horseshoe" region a LOT of build up has happened, and coming to Toronto you will see that build up. Outside the region there is less. If I recall, something like 99% of the population of Canada is in a 110 mile stones throw of the US/Canada border (>_>)


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

mhammer said:


> We lived in Victoria for 5 years, and in that time, we had a grand total of 3 weeks altogether where there was snow on the ground, and believe me there wasn't enough to shovel. There are actually deserts in the middle of BC.
> 
> If you pass through Saskatchewan, there is a drive-in theatre in Wolseley. We missed watching Spiderman 2 by about 30 minutes when we drove through there. That must be something to watch a movie under the prairie sky. It is a VERY big sky.


Ya, I heard the Vancouver area doesn't get much snow. I'd like to go up there when there's snow but it'd be more complicated we're anxious to go this summer.

Do they have many drive-ins up there? When I was a kid I used to love watching movies at the drive-in near Disneyland and watching the fireworks. Many of the drive-ins here have been sold for real estate. 

I want to ask you guys a question but I don't want to turn this into a political debate. I don't know if it's a heated topic to you guys like it is to many Americans so if it stirs a debate between some of you I apologize. 

Anyway, here's the question: How do you like your health care? I know two Canadians locally that both preferred yours to ours so it seems to me yours must be fine. I only ask because, like I said, if we like it on our trip then my sister, 2 cousins and I are considering making a move up there. However, they've heard horror stories about Canadian health care and if you guys could set the record straight so my sister and cousins know it's fine that'd answer one of their questions. They'll believe you more than me since you live there. lol


----------



## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

lots to see and experience in Canada.............too bad you have such a tight schedule..........you'll miss the annual RIFF WRATH JAM........lol.........


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Presto1202 said:


> Do they have many drive-ins up there? When I was a kid I used to love watching movies at the drive-in near Disneyland and watching the fireworks. Many of the drive-ins here have been sold for real estate.
> 
> ..... How do you like your health care? I know two Canadians locally that both preferred yours to ours so it seems to me yours must be fine. I only ask because, like I said, if we like it on our trip then my sister, 2 cousins and I are considering making a move up there. However, they've heard horror stories about Canadian health care and if you guys could set the record straight so my sister and cousins know it's fine that'd answer one of their questions. They'll believe you more than me since you live there. lol


1) There ARE drive-ins, but they are disappearing from the landscape, sadly. Those remaining ones, however, make it a real ritual outing when you go.

2) Health care here is every bit as good, on average, as what Americans can expect when they have coverage, although it is getting harder and harder to find a family doctor, particularly if you live in a small town or outlying area. The big name doctors and surgeons, and the big ticket cutting edge procedures ARE likely to be found south of the border, but the overwhelming majority of anyone's year-in/year-out health needs don't demand much more than someone looking down your gullet, or that of your kid, and giving you a prescription for amoxylin to get rid of the strep throat. You want a flu shot? You don't have to go to Walgren's to get it for $25; you get it for nothing. The biggest complaints will be heard from seniors who both have health issues that involve prolonged pain (e.g., folks needing knee or hip replacements), and who also remember a time when doctors would come to your house and the lineups were shorter. Understandably, they are impatient; pain does that to people. If you have something serious and life-threatening that demands immediate attention, you'll get it. I've strolled into emergency rooms on several occasions complaining of cardiac symptoms and been on a gurney with wires and tubes everywhere within a half hour of the front door shutting behind me. As investments go, there is simply no way I could ever match what all the medical attention I and my family have received over the years through our puny federal and provincial tax contribution. So yeah, it may not be haute cuisine all the time, but you could survive happily for a long time on what Guy Fieri eats, right? And that's what we have, good diner-food medicine, off the hook and knocked out of the park 24/7....for everybody.

Re: Dave Philips

Before there was Dave Philips, there was Percy Saltzman, whose chalk toss at the end of the forecast was as iconic to Canadians as Ed Murrow's or Walter Cronkite's signoff. And here's Percy: http://archives.cbc.ca/arts_entertainment/media/clips/6758/


----------



## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Presto1202 said:


> Ya, I heard the Vancouver area doesn't get much snow. I'd like to go up there when there's snow but it'd be more complicated we're anxious to go this summer.
> 
> Do they have many drive-ins up there? When I was a kid I used to love watching movies at the drive-in near Disneyland and watching the fireworks. Many of the drive-ins here have been sold for real estate.


Yes, several across the country. Niagara Falls and Hamilton both do I know for sure (and Hamilton is about 30 mins drive from Toronto, and Niagara about 60 mins give or take 20 mins).



Presto1202 said:


> I want to ask you guys a question but I don't want to turn this into a political debate. I don't know if it's a heated topic to you guys like it is to many Americans so if it stirs a debate between some of you I apologize.
> 
> Anyway, here's the question: How do you like your health care? I know two Canadians locally that both preferred yours to ours so it seems to me yours must be fine. I only ask because, like I said, if we like it on our trip then my sister, 2 cousins and I are considering making a move up there. However, they've heard horror stories about Canadian health care and if you guys could set the record straight so my sister and cousins know it's fine that'd answer one of their questions. They'll believe you more than me since you live there. lol


Not much to debate. It is a reverse monopoly. There are Dr retention issues as "the grass is greener" syndrome is a realty where ever you go in the world. There are issues in remote communities for access to services, and traditional First Nations vs the non-traditional conflicts at times too. Some regions are far more "mismanaged" than others, some communities seem to get better treatment from the governments.

HOWEVER and this is a biggies: Last years flu joke, Canada had some 10,000,000 infection cases, and 71 deaths. The USA had 100,000,000 and 71,000 deaths (from memory, but the WHO has all these numbers on their site). The BIG difference between the humans of the USA and Canada is the access to health care, and I have to believe the difference in numbers relates directly to that. While Obama can be the best or worst President in the HISTORY OF THE REPUBLIC I have to fully support his intention to bring at least a modicum of universally accessible health care to Americans.

On misconception I do hear from my US friends is that "everything" is covered. Not so. Elective, cosmetic, optional etc care is not generally covered by the government, usually people have private policies for that. Medication is only covered while in hospital, or if you are on a pension, otherwise we have to pay for our pills  So, yea, I honestly have lots of issues with health care, but mostly due to it being a reverse monopoly. Ten companies each making scalpels may sound great, but with only one purchaser, none of those ten companies have a worry their 1000 dollar disposable blades wont be bought :/ (thats an egregious exaggeration but illustrates the point).



Thank you Mark  



mhammer said:


> Re: Dave Philips
> 
> Before there was Dave Philips, there was Percy Saltzman, whose chalk toss at the end of the forecast was as iconic to Canadians as Ed Murrow's or Walter Cronkite's signoff. And here's Percy: http://archives.cbc.ca/arts_entertainment/media/clips/6758/


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Perhaps the strongest feature of Canadian health care is that there are no "brands". Inter-provincial agreements mean that if you live in one province, and get sick or otherwise need immediate health care while in another, you just show them your health card, and they'll take care of all the paperwork and billing; essentially one transferable "plan" for the nation.

Funny story.

About 15 years ago, I was having an issue with kidney stones, and the specialist in Ottawa indicated that I was a viable candidate for lithotripsy (the stone has to have a certain minimum size and composition for lithotripsy to work). I was given a choice of going to the nearest place with a lithotripsy machine in either Montreal or Toronto (we had a machine in town, but no one trained in operating it at that point, so it sat in a crate). I chose Montreal because it was only a 90+ minute drive away, where Toronto was 5hrs. Going to Montreal meant crossing provincial boundaries, though.

Foolishly, I didn't check to see whether I had my health card with me, and when it came time to do the billing, I couldn't give them a card number. Well, yes and no. I had a hospital-specific card from the place near my home which also had my provincial health card number embossed on it, but apparently that did not satisfy their requirements. The nurse said that I cold simply put the procedure on my VISA and would get reimbursed when I went back home. In passing she mentioned that many Americans came to Montreal for the procedure, because they could easily have to pay $20k for it back home.

So, I took the invoice down to the accounting office to get cleared before the did the procedure. The teller at the wicket takes my VISA card and hands me a receipt for $5,000 (ironically, with a "Have a nice day" caption automatically printed at the bottom; I laughed when I saw it, but she thought I was nuts). I was somewhat taken aback, but it was still a *lot* lower than the $20k the nurse had described, so I figured that was the tab. I paid it, assuming I'd get it all back, and went back upstairs for the procedure, then went home. When I contacted my provincial health office in town, I was informed that they only reimburse $274 for that procedure, interprovincially, and that if I wanted the remainder, I would have to obtain an itemized invoice indicating why the cost was so high. I called the hospital back in Montreal, and was told that the information was confidential patient information, and they would not give it out over the phone. I had to be there in person. I wasn't about to rent a car and make a day trip yet again, so I pressed my case. Eventually, after multiple phone transfers, it came to light that the nurse had billed me the out-of-country rate by mistake, and not the out-of-province rate. The $5000 was what the Americans came for. The guy at the other end of the phone indicated he would make a couple of calls to head office in Toronto and take care of it, but he needed my health card number. So I read it to him over the phone from, you guessed it, the very card they would not accept in person at the hospital.

I did get my $5000 back. Unfortunately, it took about 8 weeks, and there was really no means to be able to either be reimbursed for the VISA interest tab, or claim it on taxes as a health expense, so I was out the $125, or whatever it was. Apart from that, it was an altogether pleasant, and relatively efficient experience. Of course, the screwup that resulted in the extra headache could have happened under any system. It was a human error, not a system flaw.


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

Ya, I figure everywhere has good stories and bad stories. I changed my view on a national provider type option in health care back in 2003 when I wrote a paper on it for economics and it opened my eyes. Since then I'd prefer something you have to something we have. But many Americans are overly paranoid of anything like that. But we have horror stories too. Like, for example, my dad fell of a roof and broke 5 ribs. He had to do 2 CTscans and was in the intensive care unit (just for observation mind you, nothing else) for 3 days and it cost about $30,000. One of the women I work with has a teenage son that has testicular cancer. They went to 4 doctors before it was found. But since you guys live there, your view of your own health care system will help my sister and cousins get a better picture of your system than what you hear in the media here.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I suspect a lot of the resistance to a change in health care that exists in the US stems from a number of factors. In no particular order:

1) There are a LOT of states, and many fewer provinces, such that obtaining the sort of consensus to create any kind of national standard and transferable inter-state agreement, is a lot harder to obtain in the US than it is/was in Canada.

2) The US is a republic, whereas Canada is not. Despite some strong pushes for independence and more provincial authority/autonomy in the past 25 years, the US has a much longer track record, and more entrenched approach to the autonomy of states to do things as they see fit. Yet another reason why it would be difficult to get everyone on board with a federal health agreement. Having said that, I should note that Canadian provinces DO vary with respect to what they cover in their health plans, in some cases by virtue of religious considerations (e.g., access to subsidized abortion).

3) So much is already predicated on the way things are in the US, that restructuring it seems, and probably is, much too disruptive and risky for some folks' liking. It is a very big ship to turn around. Conversely, medicare is so entrenched into the way we do things here, that it would be awkward to undo it. Hell, there is a substantial segment of the population who think of it as one of the defining features of being Canadian.

4) We have issues with questionable immigration and refugees here too, but nothing like the challenges you folks face on the border with Mexico. I think any approach to social medicine likely will vary with the number of undocumented people to contend with.

5) Historically, social medicine had its birth in the prairies, drawing on the farmers-helping-farmers mentality. In the US, social policy tends to be driven by those states with the largest population, and biggest GDP. which is of course where the big HMOs have deep and strong roots. I don't see Iowa or Nebraska suddenly shaming the rest of the nation into changing their way of doing things.


As I'm fond of reminding folks here, health-care policy and systems have a funny way of infiltrating so many walks of life that you wouldn't ordinarily think of. Are Americans more litigious than Canadians? Possibly. But certainly the fact that they cannot emerge from an accident or other tragedy and know they will have most of their health care needs provided by the state leads them to need to sue for large amounts. If you lose your job due to disability in the US, you may well lose your health care coverage with your employer, and it may take a while until welfare kicks in. While there may be specifics of what is covered that are supplemented by the employer (e.g., dental plans), here, your health care is not contingent on whether you have a job or not. So, while it happens, litigation in anticipation of health-care costs is somewhat rarer. 

Similarly, health care policy infiltrates labour law in the US. For example, a number of state supreme courts have upheld the rights of employers to insist on a never-ever-smoked condition of employment, maintain snitch lines, and fire you if you are found out to have smoked, even off the job. Why? Because, the higher insurance premiums imposed on the employer when they cannot assure their staff are uniformly low risk for lung cancer are considered an undue hardship under the law. Hence such actions on the part of the employer is considered defensible under law. Such requirements would make no sense here, because any treatment for cancer would not be on the employer's nickel.

Something folks never think of.


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

mhammer said:


> I suspect a lot of the resistance to a change in health care that exists in the US stems from a number of factors. In no particular order:
> 
> 1) There are a LOT of states, and many fewer provinces, such that obtaining the sort of consensus to create any kind of national standard and transferable inter-state agreement, is a lot harder to obtain in the US than it is/was in Canada.
> 
> ...


I agree with all those points. Especially #5.

Incidentally the woman I know whose son has testicular cancer does not have health insurance. She works part time (about 30 hours a week) and her husband was laid off from his plant manager job a few months before the diagnosis and wasn't able to get a full time job before they found out. 

It also affects the number of part-time/full-time employees a company will hire here. In most states, if an employee works 34-40 hours a week (depending on the state) they are considered full-time and in most jobs must be offered health insurance by the company so companies often avoid hiring full-time. I used to work for a large drug chain that is now part of CVS, who does this. They kept most workers under 24 hrs/wk in case someone was a 24 hr/wk employee and they needed to call them in to cover the shift of a sick worker (at 32 hours they are still part time). That way the person couldn't consistently cover other peoples shifts and reach the point of full time hours. 

In addition to what you said, one reason we don't have a more universal system is that Americans are overly afraid of anything considered socialized. Most of them totally lose sight of the fact that our military, police, fire, postal service, national park system, and some other areas are socialized and consider anything outside the free market to be borderline evil. I'm not one to believe everything shoudl be socialized but I also do not believe that the same type of ideological system is the best choice for every issue, no matter what that ideological system is. Still, many here believe pretty much exclusively in the free market and they have a pretty strong influence.

I think people should do what they can to be self-sufficient, carry their share of the load, and not want to leech off the nation or others, but I think it's nice when a nation believes citizens have a right to basic affordable health care. I think on that you guys stand brighter than we do.


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

You guys seriously are awesome. I appreciate all the advice and the links keeper, flip and everyone else provided. That Emerald Lake Lodge mhammer linked to looks awesome. You're really helping me out. 

Does anyone know a good area to get nanaimo bars? I was told I need to try those. lol


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Presto1202 said:


> Does anyone know a good area to get nanaimo bars? I was told I need to try those. lol


No they are called Saskatchewan bars....... ( Corner Gas joke)


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Presto1202 said:


> Does anyone know a good area to get nanaimo bars? I was told I need to try those. lol


No they are called Saskatchewan bars....... ( Corner Gas joke)


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Nanaimo bars do not have to be obtained in Nanaimo. They can be obtained pretty much anywhere these days, the same way poutine is. It's no different than getting something "cajun" or "Mexican" in the US; what may have once been regional is now national.

There ARE still some regional specialties, though. For example, McDonalds has "McLobster" (lobster on a bun, or what is normally called a "lobster roll") in the Atlantic provinces, while the other provinces might have somethng else, like McRib. It's quite possible that Maine also has McLobster, but I can't vouch for it.

There is a soft drink indigenous to Quebec called "spruce beer" (biere d'epinette), that I have to say tastes like sweetened carbonated Mr. Clean. Although I suppose that people might have made a face at ginger beer or root beer at one time, so flavouring a carbonated drink with spruce rosin probably isn't any wackier than flavouring food with rosemary or drinking gin (both involving plants with needles).

I mentioned Saskatoon-berry earlier, and of course those will be indigenous to Saskatchewan. Newfoundland (and Labrador) have partridge berries. There are ongoing debates about whether Atlantic salmon is better than Pacific, but certainly people on both coasts are well-informed about what it takes to bring out the very best from their respective salmon. With Alberta being or Texas, you'll generally find restaurants touting "Alberta beef" on the menu. I can't speak to whether it has any particular unique or redeeming qualities.

Many of the fast-food chains you are familiar with will not be in evidence, except for maybe a few locations near the Canada-US border in certain high-density locales. Carls Jr. does not exist here, nor does Churches or Checkers, although there are Popeye's in a few select places, and Taco Bell's scattered around. Most Wendy's will have a Tim Horton's adjacent or very nearby, since Wendy's bought out Tim Horton's. There may be a TCBY and the odd Ben & Jerry's in Toronto or Vancouver, but for frozen treats, most of Canada is either Dairy Queen or Baskin-Robbins, with the odd local place here and there. We have the same infestation of Starbucks (and in Vancouver it is not uncommon to find several on the same intersection) but we also have Second Cup, which I don't think you folks do. Borders and Barnes&Noble do not exist here. Instead we have Indigo and Chapters (the same company). There is no, I repeat, NO Guitar Center in Canada. the closest we get is a Toronto-based chain called Long & McQuades. Two smaller chains (Mother's Music in the west and Steve's Music in the east) also exist.

Even though it is no longer a "Canadian" company, Canadians have an umbilical-cord connection to "Timmy's", such that the establishment of a Tim Horton's on the Canadian bases in Afghanistan was perceived as having a tremendous consoling effect on troops stationed there. In 1990, during the 2-week period when the first Gulf War was on, and the "Oka Crisis" had hit full swing in Canada, I had the pleasure of driving across the continent, from Victoria to Fredericton, over a 6-day stretch. The first leg of the trip to Sault St. Marie was done state-side, and the second leg, from Sault St. Marie to Fredericton, was on the Canadian side. One of the lessons I learned on that trip was that Americans *like* donuts, but Canadians *need* them. What is the difference? In the US, if you want to bitch about the government, your spouse, your kids, your boss, your lack of a job, your life, etc., you'd probably do it under a fuzzing intermittent Budweiser/Coors/Schlitz sign in a dingy place akin to Moe's Tavern on the Simpsons. Here, you are more likely to have such conversations over a double-double (2 cream, 2 sugar) and a cruller at Tim's, or a Country Style. Maybe it has to do with getting licenses, but for whatever reasons, small bars in small towns are not nearly as numerous as donut places are here. So, Canadians *need* donuts, because that's what they stick in their mouths when griping. The Tim Horton's at the corner of King and Regent in downtown Fredericton is probably the most politically powerful location in that province because it is where all the civil servants go for coffee. I used to joke with folks that if the former American embassy in Ottawa, just across from Parliament Hill (and sitting empty since the new one was built a decade or so back), was converted into a multi-storey Tim Horton's, it would be the most Canadian place on earth....even more than the Parliament across the street. I could just see Senate committees meeting over coffee and Timbits in private "tatami rooms".

My wife and son happened to be in Times Square the day that the first Tim Horton's opened there, and were surprised to see one. I'm curious to see whether that gamble will pay off. My guess is no better than that other experiment when Krispy Kreme tried to move into Canada.

And in case no one has told you, Tim Horton's was a defenseman for the Toronto Maple Leafs, and the very first Tim Horton's Donuts was in Hamilton.

Is there a town in Canada *without* a Chinese restaurant? I have my doubts, though I have to admit to never having visited the Arctic. Honestly, sometimes it seems as if there is some Kruschyev-era office that "assigns" Chinese-Canadians to towns, based on the need for a restaurant. "But, but, I have a Master's in African history from U of T!". "Sorry, Estevan/Salmon Arm/Chatham/Kapuskasing needs a Chinese restaurant....STAT! No arguments. Off you go." As you can imagine, Vancouver and Toronto are considered the epicentres of fine Asian cuisine in Canada, though Edmonton has a big Korean population, and Montreal has a big Vietnamese population, with accompanying restaurants.

Finally, you will notice a distinct absence of Hispanic culture. The service jobs that would likely be filled by Hispanic people in California will not be so here. There is a good chance those same positions will be filled by South Asian or East Asian persons. 

Another funny story....

In the late 80's when we were living in Victoria, they were filiming the Goldie Hawn/Mel Gibson movie "Bird on a Wire", with downtown Victoria posing as Racine Wisconsin. My wife was working downtown, so I'd go to pick her up after work each day, and we'd watch a bit of the shoot. One day, I get there early, and I'm watching the 2nd unit shoot part of a chase scene involving Fan Tan alley ( http://images.travelpod.com/users/sarzmc/vancouver_islnd.1195956240.fan-tan-alley.jpg ). The scene they're shooting involves Gibson's body double emerging from Fan Tan Alley and escaping on a motorcycle from the bad guys. The motorcycle passes over a freshly-paved piece of sidewalk and the bad-guys are supposed to get caught in it as Gibson gets away. It might be shown here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8NcoZ8aJjo - but I can't see this at work so I may be wrong. 

As I'm watching them do take after take, I start thinking "Boy, something feels...different. Can't quite put my finger on it, but it just feels not right somehow." Then it hit me. In an effort to make the municipal workers in the scene look more "American", they had cast at least half of them to African-American bit players. Locals would have yielded too "white" a road crew and it would have felt wrong to American viewers. Weird.


----------



## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

mhammer said:


> 1) There ARE drive-ins, but they are disappearing from the landscape, sadly. Those remaining ones, however, make it a real ritual outing when you go.
> 
> 2) Health care here is every bit as good, on average, as what Americans can expect when they have coverage,


completely untrue. being an actual american, i can tell you from personal experience that our health system was awesome before they went and messed with it. in no way does socialized medicine anywhere in the world compare when quality of care is taken into account. the very idea you put forth has no basis in fact. treating the sniffles is no big deal. i saw what they did to my wife when she had cancer. 2 hours after removing her breast they woke her up and put her in a wheelchair and pushed her into the lobby for me to take home. i was naturally appalled, so i asked the nurse, what would you have done if i wasn't here to take her home? 
the nurse replied "we would have put her in a cab. in america THAT WOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED. i could tell you all about how they butchered my leg, and post the actual x-rays as proof, and any one of several other horror stories about the health care here when it comes to serious illnesses. i could recite recent news stories that speak of people with serious issues who are in a bed in the hallway because there is no where else to put them. (toronto sun, about 1 month ago) i could tell you many awesome stories about how well i have been treated in the states, as well as family and friends. uninformed people are the ones who came up with the ridiculous idea for the states to abandon our current system system in the first place. 
worse still, the plan they drew up isn't even as nice as what is here.


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

I'de never even heard of Tim Horton. lol I rarely even watch hockey. My sister is actually a big hockey fan which is funny to me because (and it's funny you mention hispanics) my sister and I are part-Mexican (Mexican/German/Cherokee/French) and if you look at her she doesn't look like a hockey fan being a mid-30's hispanic female. Still, she drives about 3 hours to LA a couple times a year to watch a game. Do they sell donut holes? 

Actually we don't have Churches or Checkers here either. Nor do we have White Castle. We do have Carls Jrs and love them. The two most popular burger chains around where I live are Carls Jr and In & Out. I'd much prefer Dairy Queen and Baskin Robbins to TCBY. 

What are the best burger chains there?


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Presto1202 said:


> Do they sell donut holes?
> 
> What are the best burger chains there?


"Donut holes" are sold under the name "Tim-Bits" at Tim Hortons. Not sure if they sell them at any of the other donut establishments, but you'll be alright with Timbits.

I'm certain that there are regional chains I've never heard of, but as far as nationally advertised burger chains, there's the usual McD's, Wendy's and Burger King. A&W (which started out on the prairies) is reasonably well represented in swiss cheese fashion across the country (a hole here and there). Harvey's is a decent Canadian chain that serves a char-broiled burger with a mountain of condiments available.

If you're starting out on the coast, I cannot recommend highly enough getting yourself an ice-cream bar from Purdy's. It is principally a west-coast-based chain of chocolate shops, generally found in shopping malls, but they sell this ice-cream bar that is really something. Vanilla ice cream bar, dipped in molten dark chocolate, and then quickly rolled in wads of crushed almonds before the chocolate sets. Puts the Good Humour man to shame. Boy, do I miss 'em.

Since I'm not really partial to alcohol in any form, I shall leave it to others to extol the virtues of their regional beers, of which there are a great many.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

cheezyridr said:


> completely untrue. being an actual american, i can tell you from personal experience that our health system was awesome before they went and messed with it. in no way does socialized medicine anywhere in the world compare when quality of care is taken into account. the very idea you put forth has no basis in fact. treating the sniffles is no big deal. i saw what they did to my wife when she had cancer. 2 hours after removing her breast they woke her up and put her in a wheelchair and pushed her into the lobby for me to take home. i was naturally appalled, so i asked the nurse, what would you have done if i wasn't here to take her home?
> the nurse replied "we would have put her in a cab. in america THAT WOULD NEVER HAVE HAPPENED. i could tell you all about how they butchered my leg, and post the actual x-rays as proof, and any one of several other horror stories about the health care here when it comes to serious illnesses. i could recite recent news stories that speak of people with serious issues who are in a bed in the hallway because there is no where else to put them. (toronto sun, about 1 month ago) i could tell you many awesome stories about how well i have been treated in the states, as well as family and friends. uninformed people are the ones who came up with the ridiculous idea for the states to abandon our current system system in the first place.
> worse still, the plan they drew up isn't even as nice as what is here.


That's awful what happened to you. I certainly can't refute your experience. What I do know is that I've lived in 6 different provinces, and with only one exception involving a small town doctor (which would have likely happened under any system of billing) have never had anything but terrific care for me and those I care about, whether it involved major surgery, cancer, broken bones, or maternity/obstetrics.

But like Presto1202 said, he didn't want to start a political thread, so I'll back off.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Presto1202;330772My sister and I are part-Mexican (Mexican/German/Cherokee/French) [/QUOTE said:


> Hey, that sounds like a lovely mix. I'm just a boring old white guy myself but have lots of friends who are of some Spanish background, either from South America or Mexico. They have a natural warmness that is harder to find in the average white/angle Canadian.
> 
> If I had the time for a long trip, it would be out west to Vancouver by car, but through the rocky mountain states, up to British Columbia then down the Pacific coast to Mexico and then across the middle of the USA and back to Canada. Friends of ours did it a few years ago and used up 7 weeks, but even then that's a lot of miles for 7 weeks.


----------



## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

mhammer said:


> There is no, I repeat, NO Guitar Center in Canada. the closest we get is a Toronto-based chain called Long & McQuades. Two smaller chains (Mother's Music in the west and Steve's Music in the east) also exist.


From my experience there is a difference between L&M's across the country.
Some are better than others--but I have only been in a few--the one in Calgary still seems to employ some people who worked at the local store they took over--Keen Kraft--(but that could be my imagination.)

Axe Music is kind of a chain--with stores in Calgary & Edmonton--and a big show room.


----------



## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i have to give props to toronto about guitar stores. i like them much better here that in the states. there just seems to be a
different atmosphere. selection is better than what i'm used to as well


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I know that Songbird in Ottawa turned into Spaceman Music, and there are web indications that the Toronto half went bankrupt. What ever happened to their stock? Did it get picked up by any of the other stores in Toronto, and if so which store/s?


----------



## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

They had a blow out sale with people who had no clue, I tried to get a cool little head and they would not budge on the price.
Was there for some time and not one person bought anything, it was packed with a line outside.

Hope it all went to a good home.


----------



## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

On your drive to Calgary from Vancouver...IF it is in July or August, make sure that you stop at Takakkaw Falls and maybe stop at the Chateau Lake Louise for the night.

Takakkaw Falls is glacier fed so it is really only great to see in the heat (July and August) and in fact the road is closed most of the year:
YouTube - Takakkaw Falls, Canada 2007

Chateau Lake Louise is fantastic any time:
YouTube - Fairmont Chateau Lake Louise hotel

I also recommend previous posters' mention of Dinosaur Park/Royal Tyrell Museum


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

What kind of taxes do you guys pay? I saw that you have federal and provincial taxes but are there any other like property taxes, sales taxes, etc.?


----------



## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

I think about 75% of our total cash earned in life goes to pay for our governments, any money they collect that they dont use, they go on golf trips with, except for the few really enterprising politicians that went the next step and built their own golf course with those unused tax monies


----------



## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

keeperofthegood said:


> I think about 75% of our total cash earned in life goes to pay for our governments, any money they collect that they dont use, they go on golf trips with, except for the few really enterprising politicians that went the next step and built their own golf course with those unused tax monies


If you are a low or middle income earner, what keeperofthegood says is about right. 

If you are a doctor or a business person or make big money then Canada is a great place for you in regards to taxes. Alberta is the lowest load taxation province.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

A less cynical reply....

Taxes are paid at the cash register in the form of one of the following:
- the Goods and Services Tax (GST), same rate for the whole country
- the Provincial Sales Tax (PST), whose amount varies by province
- the Harmonized Sales Tax (HST), which is a blending of GST+PST

Alberta has no PST (they have oil so they've never implemented a PST) so you only pay GST there. Some provinces have separate PST and GST, while others have HST. The max sales tax in whatever form you get it will be between 12 and 15%. You can find out more here: Goods and services tax/harmonized sales tax (GST/HST)

In many instances, the taxes will be buried in the price. So, at work, when I go downstairs for a coffee, they charge me a buck, and they take care of all the tax stuff; easier than saying the coffee is 87 cents or whatever "plus tax"....or dealing with change for two bucks. Same thing with gas; the tax is embedded in the sticker price and not added at the till. 

In most provinces, food is taxed differentially depending on how much and what kind. In Ontario, buy 1 donut and you're taxed because it's a treat. Buy 6 or more and it's considered groceries and not taxed. Buy a scoop at Baskin-Robbins and you're taxed. Buy 500ml or more and its groceries, so you're not taxed.

If you earn less than a certain amount, annually, you're eligible to get a GST rebate from the feds. It's not huge, but its nice to know folks are mindful that some people ought not to be paying as much tax at the cash register. Like everywhere, tax forms keep getting more and more complicated, and formulae to calculate for purposes of determining if you get a rebate or a deduction, get more and more complex. FWIW, here's the 2010 general tax info: 5000-G - General Income Tax and Benefit Guide 2010 - All Provinces Except Non-Residents

Municipal taxes are, of course, always a bone of contention because property valuation is always subject to debate, none of the municipal transit systems are in the black, and every school board everywhere doesn't have nearly enough money. What else is new?

Like everywhere, people who make enough to afford an accountant will pay less in taxes because they have someone who learns enough about revisions to tax laws in advance to provide advice about what you can do to keep your tax burden lower. T'was ever thus. I make a decent salary, pay union dues and a bunch of other non-tax related deductions, and have somewhere around 24% deducted from each paycheck in federal taxes. I think the sum total of all my deductions is around 1/3 but truthfully, I don't look at my pay stub, so don't take my word for it.

Our department is scheduled to move to the other side of the river in 2 years, at which point we will technically be working in Quebec. Quebec's provincial taxes are higher, but apparently you fill out a form and get back the difference come tax time. I get taxed provincially and federally at source and always get money back at tax time from assorted deductions, and our municipal taxes are embedded into our mortgage payments, so I have no complaints because I never really have the experience of having to cut someone a cheque. I imagine those folks who have to save all year so as to be able to cut the Receiver General a huge cheque will have more negative things to say than I will, and I completely understand; that's a big chunk of change to wave goodbye to all at once.


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

mhammer, I tried to send you a PM but your inbox is full. 

I was trying to do some research on taxes but it looks like you guys don't pay much more than us unless I'm missing something. Then again I do live in California and we're one of the most heavily taxed states in the US. lol


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I got a notice about that, and emptied as much of my inbox and outbox as I could, so unless the limit is something like 50k or 8 messages, there should be space now. If not, let me know and I'll give you another address to send to.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Presto1202 said:


> I was trying to do some research on taxes but it looks like you guys don't pay much more than us unless I'm missing something. Then again I do live in California and we're one of the most heavily taxed states in the US. lol


As always, it's never really a question of how high your taxes are, but rather whether you get what you feel is enough in return for your taxes. I've watched both my parents, and several other family members have extended health care, and went in for a triple bypass myself, all without any expense other than whatever portion of taxes goes to health care. I've had what I feel is a decent education on the public nickel, and seen my kids get the same. I have no complaints about taxation levels. I imagine if I was a small businessman, employing a couple of people, and taxes were eating into my ability to grow the business I might feel otherwise.


----------



## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

mhammer said:


> As always, it's never really a question of how high your taxes are, but rather whether you get what you feel is enough in return for your taxes. I've watched both my parents, and several other family members have extended health care, and went in for a triple bypass myself, all without any expense other than whatever portion of taxes goes to health care. I've had what I feel is a decent education on the public nickel, and seen my kids get the same. I have no complaints about taxation levels. I imagine if I was a small businessman, employing a couple of people, and taxes were eating into my ability to grow the business I might feel otherwise.


I agree with Mark here though yes I have a fair bit of cynicism too. Tax is a four letter word no matter where you are but here the four letters are usually reserved not for what is taken (or why) but what is misused or simply poorly used. I was not joking about Golf in my post it is a part of Canadian Political History  that is one of many times our national bone heads have had less smarts than kindergarten kids  but then, election time comes around and we get to fire them YAY. That is a good thing in Canada, we don't celebrate past fired employees be they public leaders or the janitor that left the doors unlocked they are equally fired here


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

I don't mind paying taxes, within reason, as long as they are going toward good use. Here in America many of us don't like paying taxes no matter what they're going toward and others just want them to go toward something we feel is useful. I was looking at a website I found with an income tax calculator by province so I could get an idea and I wondered what taxes I might be missing. 

So the road through Roger's Pass (Highway 1) is a well-traveled path? 

I showed my sister and cousins some pictures from the links you guys provided and they were impressed with the beauty but they wanted to make sure we weren't going to be going on some dangerous narrow road but I'm assuming since it seems that highway is well-traveled their fears are unwarranted. Although we have roads going up through Camp Nelson and Ponderosa here in the mountains that are pretty narrow and have accidents, especially in the winter.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Well, there ARE a number of areas where you probably don't want to be driving at night. Having a truck come around a blind turn with its high-beams on, or a deer come dashing out, is not the sort of thing you want to be doing on such roads. But they are NOT logging roads.

Still, my wife said she would rather fly back home than drive back through there again (and she hates flying). Depends on your tolerance for roads that are high up and have naught but a railing between you and a watery death 100 metres down. I didn't think it was any big whoop, and neither do the thousands of vehicles that pass through there every day.

When I was in Berkeley a couple summers back, my buddy there took us for a drive up the mountain overlooking UC Berkeley and the Bay area, and that was a lot more hair-raising than the #1 highway through Golden and Rogers Pass.


----------



## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Just past Takakkaw Falls (going East) is the steepest part of the railway coast to coast (or the site that used to be). Many trains had wrecked there according to the tales but the steep hill was replaced by a spiral tunnel through the rock. It is quite a marvel of engineering but practically, it is a method of changing elevation without simply going up or down a steep incline/decline.


----------



## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Its not dangerous at all, i have even done it in the winter and even with roads snow covered it was no problem

Summer at day time is when you want to drive, can't see much at night, its also not a huge drive if you stop in the middle.


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

Hey guys, I've purchased plane tickets and will be flying up there next month with my sister and my cousin. 

I was wondering if someone could tell me if there was a cheap way to get from Toronto to Kingston and/or Ottawa? Besides hitch-hiking. lol


----------



## ThePass (Aug 10, 2007)

Presto1202 said:


> Hey guys, I've purchased plane tickets and will be flying up there next month with my sister and my cousin.
> 
> I was wondering if someone could tell me if there was a cheap way to get from Toronto to Kingston and/or Ottawa? Besides hitch-hiking. lol



http://www.viarail.ca/en

Try the train. No red lights, traffic jams or the like. I've never traveled with VIA but I do use the GO Train from Burlington to Toronto all the time.

I'm sure VIA can get you there but I don't know what it would cost.


----------



## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

I lived in Sacramento for a year and most of the roads in B.C. are no worse than the ride from Sac. to Tahoe or around the Weed area. The roads in the prairies are, for the most part, flat and straight. Boringly straight. East of the Peg I can't say, never been there. If you can drive in Sac or 'Frisco during rush hour, you can drive here.
If your looking for a good burger, a lot of the small bars in B.C. and Ab. have good kitchens. JT's in Spruce View Ab. and the hotel in Falkland B.C. are good, so is Slacks in Penticton and the Legion in Canmore....remember to take off your hat. If your over 21 your good anywhere in Canada; under, it depends where you are.
But right now the sun is shining, the coffee has kicked in and it's breakfast time so I'm gonna roll the bikes out and see if JT's is open. They do a mean steak and eggs too.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Well, first, thanks for choosing to visit Canada. My only regret is that you won't see what are among our most beautiful places (Montreal, Quebec City, Halifax).

But, I understand it's a big place and costs a lot to travel. I have been very fortunate to have travelled from coast to coast extensively and spent lots of time in all ten provinces and one of our territories. It's a country with an amazing diversity of cultures and natural beauty. The differences between the west coast, the prairies, central Canada, Quebec and the east coast (or as I like to call it "The Best Coast") are what makes it such an interesting place to live.

Others have already suggested most of the places I would see in the cities you'll visit. I hope you have a safe and enriching trip and bring back fond memories of your northern neighbors.


----------



## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

BACK FROM CANADA

Hey guys, thanks to everyone who gave me some info. I just spent 10 days in your country with my sis and cousin. We went to Vancouver, Edmonton, and Toronto. 
I didn't get to do or see everything I wanted to. I wasn't the only one deciding where to go and we only had a limited amount of time. No worries though.

If anyone is interested, here are some things I noticed about the places I visited. This is just from my perspective for the short time I was there.

Vancouver is a really cool city. We were foolish enough to fly in the day after the NHL finals ended so reserving a hotel for 4 days wasn't easy. The riots are something that happens in America all too often whether the sports team wins or losses. What was surprising were the reactions of people afterward which isn't something that has happened after riots here. Seeing people going out to clean up and turning in asshats from the riot was awesome. The city was much cleaner than ours tend to be and the public transportation system was superb by our standards. Stanley Park was beautiful. The Vancouver Aquarium was small but I enjoyed it. It was kinda surreal because I used to watch Danger Bay as a kid so seeing that statue out front I had to get a picture in front of it and my sister and cousin thought I was weird for being so excited. lol We went to Capilano Bridge. I don't know what was funner: going across the bridge or watching how scared my relatives were. Two things we noticed that we thought were funny was the total lack of hispanics. It was as if all the hispanics were replaced with Asians. There were also few morbidly obese people than here in the US. Most things weren't as expensive as I thought they'd be. Cigarettes were outrageous. Almost 3x our price. I didn't care since I don't smoke. My sister was lamenting over the price of Bud Light but I told her it was probably partly because it wasn't a domestic beer. I questioned her sanity in wanting an American beer while she was in a country known for producing good beer. Regardless, alcohol cost more than it does here but I don't drink often so it wasn't a big deal. We didn't get a chance to check out Victoria or other places I'd like to see. My cousin fell in love with Vancouver. She's seeing if it'd be possible to move there in a few years. 

Edmonton reminded me a lot of Bakersfield. I can't say much about it because we were only there for 2 days and just there cuz my sister and cousin wanted to check out the mall. lol Basically, if you take Bakersfield and make it a little greener, a little cleaner, and cut the night in half - that's Edmonton. That's ok though because I like Bakersfield (which is less than an hour from me). The mall was cool but, being a guy and trying not to spend too much shopping, it wasn't something I would've chosen to do of my own accord. The public transit system was more confusing than Vancouver and the city is so spread out it was hard to get far in a decent amount of time. We were going to eat at a Red Lobster when I had to, again, point out that we have Red Lobster's at home and should probably eat somewhere that we didn't have at home. So we went to Earl's. By the way, if I chose a restaurant or went somewhere that Canadians shudder at, forgive me. I'm ignorant of the local culture. The food at Earl's was very good. Now here's something funny. We woke up to a sunny day in Edmonton. My sister said "Hey, it looks like a really nice day outside." Before the trip I didn't have a suitcase (I have a habit of just using a gym bag when I travel) so I borrowed an old one from my parents. When we arrived in Edmonton at the hotel I noticed the zipper came off track (I think the driver did it taking it out of the back). I managed to fix it but noticed the thread tying the zipper to the suit case had unraveled too. We decided to walk down to Zeller's so I could buy some needle and thread. We went into Zeller's and they happened to have a bunch of luggage marked down so I bought one. My sister and cousin both bought some too (for carryons, and because they are women lol). When we walked out of the Zeller's...and it was raining. lol We were all wearing shorts, dressed for summer, and here we were walking 3/4 of a mile back to the hotel carrying luggage. Then we heard thunder. We could hardly contain our laughter and the look on the faces of people driving by who seemed to have a mix of confusion and pity for our situation. On the walk back to the hotel my sister said "Just so I'm sure, it WAS sunny when we went into that Zeller's right?!" I guess she didn't see the rain clouds on off to the west. Back at the hotel, soaked, I tried to figure out what to do with the old suitcase. My sister said I should throw it away. I didn't want to do that though because I didn't know if it had any sentimental meaning to my parents who I borrowed it from. I tried to call them that night but was unable to get a hold of them. I decided to take it with us. I moved all my belongings into the new suitcase and took the old suitcase, empty, with us to the airport in the morning. I checked it and paid the extra $20 a second suitcase required. We arrived in Toronto and my sister and cousin wer laughing when I picked up the old empty suitcase at baggage. We laughed as they teased me for checking an empty suitcase and wondered what security must've thought. In Toronto we managed to get a hold of my mom who told me it didn't have any sentimental value and I should throw it away. I'll never forget how much she was laughing when we told her the story.

Toronto seemed more like a US city than Vancouver but was till a little different. Incidentally, I decided to listen to YYZ while landing in YYZ. My sister and cousin reitterated that I was a dork. Getting off the plane I said to my cousin "Hey, I'm not the only one who likes Rush." only to be supported by the pilot who was walking behind us and said "Rush is great. I'm a big Rush fan. You know they have a song called YYZ written about this airport, right?" to which I replied "Yes! Thanks for backing me up". Toronto was interesting to me because I was surprised how many parks there are. Most US cities do not have so many nice parks. We rented a car there and was wondering how the traffic was going to be. Though probably bad by Canadian standards it was not bad compared to LA which I've driven in hundreds of times. I'd say it was comparable to Fresno or maybe Sacramento, but then I only drove in it for 4 days. We drove to Niagara Falls. It was a pleasantly surprising drive to me because I thought the whole way would be heavily populated but it wasn't (compared to California) and there were so many trees and nice scenery that the drive more pleasant. Niagara Falls was beautiful. My cousin, wishing she was born under a Maple Leaf by now, pointed out "Even the Canadian falls are nicer than ours". We went on one of the cruises that take you up to the falls. It was like taking a shower. We tried to video tape it but we got so wet we had to put our cameras away. My sister accidentally left her camera phone on when she put it in her pocket so she recorded the audio. All you can hear is me saying something like "Mother of God!" followed by all of us laughing because, despite wearing the panchos, we were getting absolutely drenched. Getting back to our hotel my sister was pleasantly surprised to find the price of beer in Toronto to be significantly cheaper than Vancouver so she bought a case of Bud Light (ya ya, I know) and took it back to the hotel room. The next day we went to the Hockey Hall of fame and the CN tower which I thought was amazing. My sister was scared but went up with me. My cousin was too scared so she stayed at the Baton Rogue bar at the base and waited for us. I would go in that tower probably a couple times a year if I lived there. I just wish we would've gone in again at night time. Next time. We met up with my cousin in the Baton Rogue after. The bartender was really friendly and helpful. She didn't strike me as the type of person that was typically a bartender, at least like in the US (I mean that in a good way). She pointed out some places for us and said we should check out Toronto Island cuz they have some cool stuff like a petting zoo (which is right up my alley). lol After that we went to some nearby bars, Badali's, the Loose Moose, etc. The bartender at Badali's, Liam, was really friendly too. This isn't to say the others weren't. These two just seemed to go above and beyond to try to help inform some clueless Americans. We checked out Nathan Phillips center and Queen Street. My sister and cousin were hung over twice in Toronto so I went to some nearby parks (Centennial Park and Colonel Smith Park) and walked around taking pictures waiting for them to wake up. You guys have some nice parks there. It seems like darn near everyone in Vancouver and Toronto was walking/biking/jogging which was cool. Toronto Island was cool and I wish we had something like that here. Anyway, this is getting too long so I'll cut this short. 

Anyway, I know you guys have your problems too but overall I think you have an amazing country. I think in many ways its better than mine. 

The trip was great overall and I'd really like to go back to Vancouver and Toronto to see more of the stuff I missed. I have a better idea how to plan and get around - and I know not park in a garage next to the Hockey Hall of Fame! I'd also like to drive or take a train through BC to Banff which we opted not to do this trip because my relatives didn't want to sit in a car that long. I heard Quebec City and Ottawa were places I should check out. I'd like to check out Montreal but quite a few people said it was nice but the people were generally not fond of non-Francophiles. Any ideas on that? 

Oh, incidentally, if anyone is a smoker and I'm making a trip to your city I'd be happy to bring in as many cigarettes for you as customs will allow. lol


----------



## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Bypass all cities and head straight for Montreal. 

The only world class city in Canada


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

1) People forget how far north Edmonton is. I mean, it isn't exactly past the tree-line, but it IS far enough up there that the difference in day-length can be jarring for those more accustomed to 14hrs of day in the summer and 10hrs of day in the winter (like me). The part I hated about winter there was going to work in the dark and coming home in the dark. 8:30AM in December was barely dawn, and 3:30pM was dusk. It,s the exact reverse in July, when the sun is straight-arming its way into your bedroom at 5AM, and you can still read outside by natural light at 10:30PM.

2) Toronto Island is lovely. In fact there are many very nice green spaces in Toronto. One of my friends has a great work address: #1 Yonge St. He is right down where Yonge meets the waterfront, right by the ferry to the island. If that wasn't enough, he and his wife live in an apartment not far from Casa Loma that lets you see the entire skyline of the city and surrounding area. I stayed with them recently, and on a clear day you could see from damn near Oshawa to Hamilton. Amazing.

And yes, Toronto IS probably the most American city in Canada.

3) Montreal - the city of my birth - is also a wonderful city, full of quirks, amazing architecture, many many cultures and languages, and mystery. So many places to eat. The "language war" is slightly different in Montreal than elsewhere in Quebec. If you show up in Trois Rivières, or Québec City, and you speak English, it is more likely to be presumed that you aren't from around those parts, and can be cut some slack. By contrast, in Montreal, if you don't at least make an honest effort to begin by speaking French, it can be readily assumed by some that you're a lazy-Anglophone-bastard-who-will-speak-French-over-your-dead-body. The fact that, for so many years, the bosses were English, and the workers were French, and you had to speak the language of the bosses, has resulted in a certain antipathy that doesn't exist elsewhere in Quebec in quite the same way or to the same extent.

That being said, my younger son and I popped in for a day-trip and stroll around downtown a couple months ago, and we were both struck by how much more English we heard on the streets in that part of the city that we normally hear in downtown Ottawa. Still, there are English and French parts of the city. The same way there are chunks of greater Vancouver and Toronto where just about everything is in Mandarin or Punjabi.

4) " _head straight for Montreal.  The only world class city in Canada _" Not to take anything away from Montreal, but have you even BEEN to George Street in St. John's? If not, you have no idea what clubbing is. Take all of Mountain and Crescent and St. Denis, and cram it into 3 short blocks. Intense, my friend, intense.

5) Glad our country did right by you and gave you some pleasant memories. We'll be waiting here for ya, should you ever feel like swinging by again.


----------



## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

mhammer said:


> have you even BEEN to George Street in St. John's?


After getting "screeched" in it was all a bit of a blur.


----------



## copperhead (May 24, 2006)

The last time i was on George Street 
I woke up on someones lawn hanging on for dear life ,I was afraid of falling up ......Good Times


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

hardasmum said:


> Bypass all cities and head straight for Montreal.
> 
> The only world class city in Canada


Maybe not the only one, but in my opinion, the best.

"Clubbing" is not what I would bother with. Rather I would focus on fine dining, art, music and the extraordinarily beautiful women which seem abundant.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

hardasmum said:


> After getting "screeched" in it was all a bit of a blur.


My experience of getting "screeched" was something akin to a ball peen hammer upside the head. I seem to recall it going down pretty smooth, though. It's the "afterwards" that gets you!


----------

