# Negotiating Prices With Music Stores?



## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Just saw the other post about 12th Fret and it got me thinking of a conversation I had recently with some musician buddies.

I turn 33 this year and have mostly grown up in a world where price is non-negotiable. I've spent most of my life working in music stores in some fashion, and when I first started I never understood it when people would ask for a better deal than the sticker price. At first I thought it was just strange people doing strange things. But after seeing just how common of an occurrence it was, it made me curious.

So I decided to experiment. For a short time, I tried to negotiate better deals for everything I purchased. Literally everywhere I went, people gave me one of three responses:

1) The Laugher:









2) The Critical:









3) The "let me check with my manager":









Future Shop wouldn't give me an extra 5% off the TV because I flashed them the cash. I asked the guy at Staples really nicely, but he wouldn't throw in some free pens with my paper purchase. The Home Depot guy just walked away when I said I would take the table saw but only if he knocked $50 off. Moore's wouldn't give me a discount on the suit, even though it was "off the rack, which is basically like being used". In all cases, I was essentially laughed out of the store. The price was the price was the price. If I got a deal, it was because of a formal promotion (though not necessarily advertised) and that was it.

I got used to it. As in, "I guess this is just how it is in music stores." Still, to this day I don't really get it. Granted 10+ years ago, most music stores priced stuff however they wanted, so there was often some wiggle room. But thanks to the internet, these days most music stores are forced to price competitively (usually pricing at MAP) which cuts their margins pretty thin. In fact, after seeing the real numbers behind the scenes you don't have to be an economist to know that in most cases, it isn't sustainable to run a store solely selling music gear unless you overprice some items or find other ways to make up the difference like lessons, rentals, repairs, seminars, etc.

I guess my question is... Maybe it made sense at one point in time, but why do we still do it? I'm not saying it's wrong or anything, but it is certainly strange that we treat this one type of retail business so differently than others.

Thoughts?


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Speaking specifically for the Martin guitar I'm trying to buy, there is a lowest map price you're allowed to advertise. Certain authorized Martin dealers will then further discount up to another 20%. Some other music stores will price match that and some won't. Why wouldn't anyone try to get the best deal possible. Its competitive and a savvy consumer will try to take advantage. Of course there are some sectors where this doesn't make sense but you'd be kind of ridiculous to take the extreme approach and try to negotiate everything you buy. 
Would you go in to a car dealership and just pay what they are asking? Maybe its good if enough of you take the attitude to just pay what you're told to pay, then theres more of a margin for the rest of us looking for the bottom price.


----------



## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

For new merchandice I typically accept the price as the final price and seldom question it. When a store sells used items I'm more likely to try and negotiate a deal. I find L&M has pretty good deals on used stuff that they took in on trade so they're not likely to move too much but I did wrangle a setup and new strings on a used guitar recently.


----------



## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

guitarman2 said:


> Of course there are some sectors where this doesn't make sense but you'd be kind of ridiculous to take the extreme approach and try to negotiate everything you buy


In what sectors doesn't it make sense? What makes a music store different than a clothing store or even a grocery store?



> Would you go in to a car dealership and just pay what they are asking?


One of the reasons car dealers and other large product suppliers (furniture) have wiggle room on their prices is that they make a decent profit off of the interest. If you offer them cash up front for the car (a new car that is), they are much less likely to deal.



> Maybe its good if enough of you take the attitude to just pay what you're told to pay, then theres more of a margin for the rest of us looking for the bottom price.


I really don't mean this post as a criticism of those "looking for the bottom price". I'm honestly just curious why people treat music stores differently than other retailers. For instance, do you ask for a better deal at other retailers when you shop for other things, or is it unique to music stores?



Hamstrung said:


> When a store sells used items I'm more likely to try and negotiate a deal. I find L&M has pretty good deals on used stuff that they took in on trade so they're not likely to move too much but I did wrangle a setup and new strings on a used guitar recently.


That's essentially how I've always done things.
New = Find the best advertised price
Used = Negotiate the best price

Not saying that's right, it's just how I grew up. It's nice to learn about other peoples' perspectives.


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Retail shops are mainly a non negotiable situation. Especially the bigs like home Depot etc. Service industries will still talk. Our shop is mainly services and we get people asking for discounts all the time. We handle them on a individual basis. Depends on the customer and the service. Also on how they ask. We will often get people call up and tell us they can get the same service somewhere else for cheaper. Our response to those is usually "well if I was you I would go there". They want the better service but don't want to pay for it. 
If you ask nicely we will usually do something. But if you come in with an attitude it's not going to happen.


----------



## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i rarely buy a new guitar. i understand that there's not alot of room there. 99% of the time i buy used. if the guitar is in my price range, ok. it's often a little on the high side, so i will ask for a discount. my decision to buy then relies totally on their response. if they'll deal a little, i usually buy. if they refuse me, i roll, every single time. i know what a guitar's value is by the time i go shopping with money in hand. if they want to wait instead of throwing in a decent strap/cable/small discount, that's fine. i'll wait too, and get it priced at or closer to where i think it should be, some where else. they'll probably find someone willing to pay it, eventually. i just won't be that guy, is all. also, i should mention that i don't buy guitars that cost as much as a used car. not that i don't like them, but with my finances, i can only justify spending up to a certain amount on what is a hobby for me. there seems to be more action in the market between $800-$1200 for used anyways.

i notice this forum is not completely wysiwyg. i put in spaces to offset the lack of capital letters and the editor removes them when i post. is there a setting where i can change this?


----------



## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

I always haggle and typically get a deal. I find its all about repeat business. I typically always go to the same places and deal with the same people. When I built my house 3 years ago, I got an almost $1300 discount on my appliances at future shop. L&M is always good to me as well and will toss in string and cables ect with a purchase, knock off 10% here and there or waive stock transfer fees. But like I said I tend to always deal with the same people and get to know them and even become buddies with some of them.


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

I've been negotiating better prices in music stores for more than 40 years and getting them. When I saw a little tear in the corner of the store owners eye, I figure I'd gotten them as low as I could.
It was harder back then but with price matching today, it's easy. You just have to ask and if you run into someone that's not interested in giving a better price, just move on. You do have to be able to walk away though.
As for big box stores, no problem. I just got an extra $40 off of a clearance belt sander and an extra $200 off of something else I bought recently. I honed my craft in Mexico many years ago.

I'll be negotiating a purchase at L&M in a few weeks and will let you know how that goes.

*Update:* Traded my Epi Les Paul without the case and a TS9 for the Seagull 12 string I had on lease. L&M put $29 back into my bank account. I bet that doesn't happen very often.


----------



## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

I know our L&M really shines with cutting deals with loyal customers on rentals. If your a frequent buyer and renter and need to rent gear for a big show, they'll cut you a big discount.


----------



## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

It really depends on the type of store (Mom and Pop or Chain), the product (big name like Fender or smaller less known brand), new or used, pristine or scratch and dent etc. That being said. Even on something like a new Fender Strat, in order to get around the regulations they impose on NOT lowering prices, I might try to get the store to throw in something for added value instead of a discount, some free strings, patch cables or something. Besides, whether they say yes or no, it can't hurt to ask. If someone looks at me funny because I ask for a deal...fk 'em. Maybe they're moneybags who piss away money like water, but I'm not. A deal is a deal. My Dad always told me, "Watch the nickles and dimes, and the dollars will take care of themselves."


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

jbealsmusic said:


> I guess my question is... Maybe it made sense at one point in time, but why do we still do it? I'm not saying it's wrong or anything, but it is certainly strange that we treat this one type of retail business so differently than others.
> 
> Thoughts?


I negotiate with my local music store for any significant purchase, but frankly it's a short and friendly negotiation.

They understand that I could easily drive a few km to another city and buy the same guitar or amp. As I have a long standing relationship with the store, they quickly cut to the chase if I find the guitar I want at another store for a lower price.

I don't expect them to match a store that has much higher volume, but they always come close enough.

When music stores all sell the same guitar for the same price, maybe people will stop negotiating.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

jbealsmusic said:


> One of the reasons car dealers and other large product suppliers (furniture) have wiggle room on their prices is that they make a decent profit off of the interest. If you offer them cash up front for the car (a new car that is), they are much less likely to deal.


How does a dealership make money off the interest when I go in with my own financing? Whether I finance it from another source or pay cash I always negotiate and come out farther ahead. I honestly hate the experience with dealerships as its always a 2 hour ordeal. I bought a brand new Honda CRV in 2015 and negotiated over 3k off the price. Went in end of year at the end of the month and they were very motivated to move stock. Sometimes they make very little on a car and they're motivation is bonus's for yearly\monthly performance. 
Some sectors of the industry are just set up for wiggle room negotiation and some aren't. You wouldn't go in to a Wendy's or Mcdonalds and negotiate but a Car dealership and music store I do. There are exceptions to the rule. Haldimand Motors in Cayuga is a strictly no diker used car dealership. I've bought there and its a great way buy a car. I've checked and their prices are very good. I like the fact that the back and forth games are cut out. I wish all places would be like this.
If I know one music store is selling a brand new guitar for a set lowest price, why would I pay more at another one just because its closer to me or has it in stock. Yeah maybe I have to go to that one place that will give it to me for that price since running a music store is a competitive business you think that a music store would be willing to match. Some do some don't.


----------



## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

There are some cultures where it is considered rude to not haggle.


----------



## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

I used to own a couple of consumer electronics and computer retail stores. I assume the music industry works the same. Generally the higher the price the larger the markup percentage is. I wouldn't expect it but I would certainly try for a discount on a $400 guitar. On a $1,000 guitar I would expect some movement. On a $4,000 guitar I wouldn't buy it if they wouldn't negotiate. You are more likely to get a discount the higher up the chain you go. If you are talking to a junior salesperson or the store manager you are more likely to find the manager amenable to negotiating. How long the item has been in inventory is another consideration. You are more likely to get a discount on a demo that has been on the shelf for two years than the current model that came in last week. My philosophy is it never hurts to ask. The worst that can happen is they say no. You need to be polite and accept no for an answer. If you blurt out that their price is too high and you can get it cheaper elsewhere you are setting up an adversarial encounter right off the bat. If you politely ask if there is any room to move on the price you are far more likely to get some movement. In many cultures bargaining is expected. Most salespeople know that and are used to it. A lot of Canadians are terrible at it and either are afraid to ask or do so in a manner that ensures they will not get a bargain.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Kerry Brown said:


> If you blurt out that their price is too high and you can get it cheaper elsewhere you are setting up an adversarial encounter right off the bat.


As many retailers price match how do you propose taking advantage of that without explaining you can get it elsewhere cheaper?


----------



## Woof (Jan 13, 2010)

The fact that they even have a MAP strongly suggests there is room to move on the actual selling price. Higher end stuff should have more room. If possible I try to bundle purchases, sometimes waiting patiently for that extra item that can give me a decent negotiating position.

Last trip to L&M I bought 2 of the E-V mics they were blowing out and a low level pedal. The mics were already selling at half the usual list price and the pedal was not expensive to start with. I didn't even consider haggling.

The trip before that they had put the Zoom Q4 on at an attractive price, they had the 2015 Les Paul doublecut on a "get rid of these" price and they had a nice Ernie Ball MusicMan Axis that was older stock. I had been waiting for a recording camera to come on sale, I had played the LP and didn't hate the 2015s like many do, and had been looking at the EB on the Local Deals section of the website for a while - kind of a perfect storm for me 
I simply told the guy what I wanted to pay to purchase all three items today. He started to tell me that the Q4 was selling at cost and couldn't get anything there. I said I didn't really care where the savings came from repeated my price.

I eventually relented a small amount on the price but came away extremely satisfied with my haul and the price I paid. And he likely felt good by talking me back up a little in price...

Also I didn't need to buy anything but had we not been able to come to agreement I would have bought the Q4 at the sale price and left the guitars for another day.


----------



## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

guitarman2 said:


> As many retailers price match how do you propose taking advantage of that without explaining you can get it elsewhere cheaper?


It's all in how you ask. I've got better deals than a price match by politely asking if they can move on price. If I know of a store selling for a cheaper price and they decline to negotiate I would certainly then mention that I can get it cheaper elsewhere. At that point you'll probably need to be specific and provide proof. I've been on the sales end far more often than the buying end. Politeness will get you a long way. Adversarial bargaining will not. This is a learned process. Bargaining skills don't happen overnight. Many cultures are much better at it than most Canadians. For them it is an enjoyable part of the transaction process. Many Canadians look at it from the perspective that the store is trying to rip me off and come at it with an adversarial attitude. That rarely ends well for the buyer.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Yes I agree, that you should always be polite. I think thats a given. Why would I go in with an attitude. At the same time when you express what someone else will give it to you for and their answer is, "Well then go there and get it", I find that is rude and the salesperson could care less to make a sale. 
I figure a rapport is being established while I look at and try the guitar. From the interaction I have with the salesman I'll get a feel for how I approach negotiations.
Incidentally I negotiate hardware and software for my company all the time. I've had times where I've had to play hardball and detect whether a third party company is trying to extract as much company money as possible or is giving me good deals. So I'm quite adept at negotiating.


----------



## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

JUst a couple of things I can add to this conversation and they both pertain to my local L&M store...
First...
There was a small amp in the Cambridge store for sale (Used) so I went to my Local store and asked for the same price as the used for a new amp.
I did mention that it would be easy for me to drive to Cambridge and get the used model.
The salesman got on the phone right in front of me and called someone..After a minute conversation, he came back with a split price between the new and the used.
I thought that was fair and bought it.

Second ...I think this was far more interesting...
I asked if a specific used guitar was listed in any of the stores in Canada ( With the intention that if the price was right, I would ask to get it transferred to my store)
None where for sale BUT he did bring up a screen that showed all the same guitars that where sold in the last year.
Purchase price
Sale price
and percentage markup.
I wish I had a bit more time to look at that screen ...It was very interesting..most of the percentages where in the 20-30 range.

MAke of this what you want....
I think asking nicely about a price reduction can sometimes bring good results.

G.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

GTmaker said:


> JUst a couple of things I can add to this conversation and they both pertain to my local L&M store...
> First...
> There was a small amp in the Cambridge store for sale (Used) so I went to my Local store and asked for the same price as the used for a new amp.
> I did mention that it would be easy for me to drive to Cambridge and get the used model.
> ...


Concerning L&M I find them not bad to deal with. I got the best deals on a couple guitars that were in their inventory for a couple years. High end custom shops.
A couple months ago I tried to negotiate a Peavey Classic 50 4X10 down in price. It was already marked pretty good, well below most of the same amps listed on Kijiji. I tried to get it down even further but failed. The amp had just come in to the store on trade the day before I made an offer on it and it really was worth what they were asking. But to me it wasn't worth it. I had a price in mind that I would pay for it and new I could easily flip it for that price quickly if it didn't work out for me. But they didn't go for my price and I had no ill will. I tried and offered what it would have been worth to me. If it had been an amp I really knew I wanted then I would have had no problems giving their asking price.


----------



## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Ive negotiated price on a few things in retail...Once a $1800 guitar at L&M...I knew it had been on the shelf for a while, so i haggled a little for it. i think i got $150-200 off. I doubt you could do it with every item, but something that isnt moving, might have a biot more wiggle room.

The "Ill give you $X....CASH!" thing rarely works. we dont live in a barter economy. In fact, in a recent car negotiation I was told flat out, that if I financed through them they could do a bit better on price because of the kickback, than if I paid cash. So in the guitar world, see if theres an advantage to using their in-house financing vs your credit card.

Sometimes, if its a long shot, I'll just say something friendly like "do you have any room on this?" or "Is that the best you can do?".

but i think only a fool haggles without knowing what the cost to the seller is, and allowing a reasonable expectation of profit.


----------



## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> As many retailers price match how do you propose taking advantage of that without explaining you can get it elsewhere cheaper?


I think its in the way you say it. Nothing wrong with saying, "X store has this for Y...can you match that?". 
but dont be surprised if they wont if Store Y is in the US. Ive been told flat out, again in a car negotiation that "...we dont compete with US dealerships". I said, yes they do, and proceeded to buy from a US dealership


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Diablo said:


> but i think only a fool haggles without knowing what the cost to the seller is, and allowing a reasonable expectation of profit.


I make it part of my research to know what I can get for the item. "Reasonable expectation of profit", is not my concern. Thats up to the vendor to take care of his own business. If he sells lower than his cost and goes out of business thats his fault. I'm only concerned with getting an item for the lowest price I can. Other retailers might not like that. Of course not. They want to make as much money as they can and would be ecstatic if there was no competition to drive their price down. Nothing wrong with making money. Nothing wrong with getting the best deal you can. There have been things I've purchased in the past that I felt I couldn't live without and handed over asking price without flinching. Things I'm willing to walk away from and have patience to find the right deal, I will negotiate.


----------



## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

tbo, i hate haggling and asking for a discount. i do it because it's the way things are.


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

In most cases we're free to vote with our feet or wallets, though once when I got a mechanic to fix a wheel bearing on my boat trailer on a hot Sunday afternoon in the middle of nowhere, interrupting him as he was literally bouncing a grandchild on his knee, I paid what he charged and cut him off when he started to defend his price. I was surprised he even did the job until I saw his price, but understood entirely why he charged so much. 

Regarding my own business, I don't mind folks asking for some sort of discount, they're free to ask for anything they like. Though I don't discount my price for anything at anytime for anyone, the request often opens the door for the customer to learn about what they get for their money. They can either accept the price and conditions, go elsewhere, or go without the service altogether. Whatever their choice I'm not offended.

Likewise, if I ask for some sort of break in the price at the car dealer, music store, or flea market and none is offered, I take it or leave it. Not offended. I don't ask for discounts everywhere, especially small businesses which may already have a tough time surviving, but large companies like L&M are free game. If L&M refuses to haggle, I figure they're being honest as my experience with the company is quite positive...again I can take it leave it, no offence.


----------



## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

JBFairthorne said:


> There are some cultures where it is considered rude to not haggle.


About 10 years ago in China, I went to the market and met with a dealer of fake watches. I was told by colleagues that this was the place to go. One of the colleagues told me the price of each watch and I went in with the expectation that it would be quick. I told the vendor that my colleague had paid $30 for each watch and I would do the same for 8 watches I had picked out (for friends and family). He responded that it would give me a deal and charge me $150 per watch. I repeated the same thing ($30 watch blah blah blah) and the vendor responded "ok, $145 per watch".

After an hour of negotiating, I was fed up and started walking out and the vendor gave me a price of $35 per watch. I conceded and took them. He always kept a smile on his face - the Chinese are master negotiators. Slow and steady - they have been raised to do this everyday of their life including their daily meals. I am going back to China next month and looking forward to some sight seeing - will not be buying watches or anything fake - the watches lasted from 1 week to two months!


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Alex said:


> About 10 years ago in China, I went to the market and met with a dealer of fake watches. I was told by colleagues that this was the place to go. One of the colleagues told me the price of each watch and I went in with the expectation that it would be quick. I told the vendor that my colleague had paid $30 for each watch and I would do the same for 8 watches I had picked out (for friends and family). He responded that it would give me a deal and charge me $150 per watch. I repeated the same thing ($30 watch blah blah blah) and the vendor responded "ok, $145 per watch".
> 
> After an hour of negotiating, I was fed up and started walking out and the vendor gave me a price of $35 per watch. I conceded and took them. He always kept a smile on his face - the Chinese are master negotiators. Slow and steady - they have been raised to do this everyday of their life including their daily meals. I am going back to China next month and looking forward to some sight seeing - will not be buying watches or anything fake - the watches lasted from 1 week to two months!


A few years back I was sent by my company to Bangkok for a month. Stuff that I bought in the markets I always took one of guys from the Thailand office to barter for me. When an expat negotiates the price is always higher cause they expect you have more money. When a local negotiates you get the best deal.


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

If you read through all these responses and the people that have negotiated successfully you will see a theme to them. Customer loyalty. It goes a long way. Back in my heavy buying days I used to deal mainly at one shop. I spent thousands and thousands of dollars in there. Shop owners will usually always take care of a regular customer and especially one that drops a lot of money in the store. That's how we handle a lot of discounts in our place even though the majority of what we do are services. But we take care of our regulars and most places will. Some people are just born lowballers. Come across them all the time. I have had people come in the store for the very first time and announce that they never pay a posted price for anything. That does not go over well with me. In a service industry people have to consider the TIME involved. A person is entitled to make some money. One example I can give at our shop that happens a lot is with the lashes my wife does. She took a course and learned how to apply what is considered in the industry the elite of the elite in lashes. The materials are not cheap either. For her to apply these it usually takes upwards of 3 hours. Every single lash has an extension applied to it. It is extremely delicate work and tedious. I could never do it. She charges $200 for that. Now you can go and have a set of cheap lashes put on at an Asian shop in about 25 minutes for about $60 and they look like it. When Marnie is finished with a set they are stunning. There are also some people around the area that do the Xtreme Lash like the wife but will only put a lash on every 4th or 5th to save time and material and they will charge around $80 for the job. Well everyone wants Marnie to do the lashes but they only want to pay the $60 or $80. Not going to happen.

Service industries cannot be compared by price. They need to be compared by the level of service and the equipment being used. Also, like any professional service some people are better than others. The Tattoo industry is a prime example. 

So in the end its always best to start off with some kind of relationship and some loyalty. Whether that's retail or service it goes a very long way with the shop owners.


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Alex said:


> About 10 years ago in China, I went to the market and met with a dealer of fake watches. I was told by colleagues that this was the place to go. One of the colleagues told me the price of each watch and I went in with the expectation that it would be quick. I told the vendor that my colleague had paid $30 for each watch and I would do the same for 8 watches I had picked out (for friends and family). He responded that it would give me a deal and charge me $150 per watch. I repeated the same thing ($30 watch blah blah blah) and the vendor responded "ok, $145 per watch".
> 
> After an hour of negotiating, I was fed up and started walking out and the vendor gave me a price of $35 per watch. I conceded and took them. He always kept a smile on his face - the Chinese are master negotiators. Slow and steady - they have been raised to do this everyday of their life including their daily meals. I am going back to China next month and looking forward to some sight seeing - will not be buying watches or anything fake - the watches lasted from 1 week to two months!


The secret to those and anywhere in the Caribbean/Mexico is head for the door, that gets the negotiations moving real fast. Until you head for the door the prices won't move much


----------



## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

Let's flip this and see what members will negotiate with their customers (bars, festivals, other artists, service groups, products and services)...

I will give my best price to...

1) Someone I like and will truly appreciate the deal
2) A person, organization or cause I believe in and support
3) A repeat customer who commits to a number of dates or events
4) A kid riding a unicorn

Everyone else pays a fair price or rate. 

I have also had enough "experiences" that I can usually see trouble coming, and for that extra work and hassle the price goes up or I am "busy".


----------



## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> I make it part of my research to know what I can get for the item. "*Reasonable expectation of profit", is not my concern. Thats up to the vendor to take care of his own business. If he sells lower than his cost and goes out of business thats his fault. I'm only concerned with getting an item for the lowest price I can.* Other retailers might not like that. Of course not. They want to make as much money as they can and would be ecstatic if there was no competition to drive their price down. Nothing wrong with making money. Nothing wrong with getting the best deal you can. There have been things I've purchased in the past that I felt I couldn't live without and handed over asking price without flinching. Things I'm willing to walk away from and have patience to find the right deal, I will negotiate.


sure it may not "be your concern", but it sure seems like an exercise in futility. theres negotiating....and theres negotiating _effectively_. The former, your method, im willing to bet only works with items at the bottom of a clearance bin that theyve pretty much already written off. i cant think of many other scenarios where a seller would want to sell an item for less than their cost. My time has a value as well...running around throwing out ridiculous less than cost lowballs in the hopes that 1 in 100 will be crazy enough to accept it, isnt an effective use of my time. But i know ppl value their time differently. My mother will waste a half day and bus fare going to a car dealership grand opening just so she can get a couple free hot dogs. "Getting one over somebody" makes her feel good.


----------



## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

JBFairthorne said:


> There are some cultures where it is considered rude to not haggle.


perhaps, but i daresay... this is Canada, not Morocco or Shanghai.
But when in Rome....


----------



## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

There seems to a be a slew of new providers now offering to negotiate on your behalf. I used unhaggle.com to buy a car two years ago and it was a great service. They provide (for free) a detail listing of the cost of a given car and options - it was 100% accurate when matched up to the dealer quote/spec sheet. It also helps dealers since the cost model clearly shows that margins are tight for a dealer and keeps consumer expectations in check.

I paid $100 to get the quotation service - within a couple days, I had 8 quotes for the same car and options with a $2K difference between the top and low asking prices.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Diablo said:


> sure it may not "be your concern", but it sure seems like an exercise in futility. theres negotiating....and theres negotiating _effectively_. The former, your method, im willing to bet only works with items at the bottom of a clearance bin that theyve pretty much already written off. i cant think of many other scenarios where a seller would want to sell an item for less than their cost. My time has a value as well...running around throwing out ridiculous less than cost lowballs in the hopes that 1 in 100 will be crazy enough to accept it, isnt an effective use of my time. But i know ppl value their time differently. My mother will waste a half day and bus fare going to a car dealership grand opening just so she can get a couple free hot dogs. "Getting one over somebody" makes her feel good.


I am quite capable of effective negotiating. I have made out quite well. If it didn't work for me I wouldn't do it.


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

"If you read through all these responses and the people that have negotiated successfully you will see a theme to them. Customer loyalty."

Customer loyalty? What's that. That would mean I have to buy quite a bit of stuff from someone. My purchases are few and far between and I buy from the person that gives me the best deal.


----------



## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Guitar101 said:


> Customer loyalty? What's that. That would mean I have to buy quite a bit of stuff from someone. My purchases are few and far between and I buy from the person that gives me the best deal.


Can't tell if you're serious or being tongue in cheek. Either way, you're right. One of the biggest business trends is that consumers are no longer brand or business loyal. People vote with their wallet, and best price always wins.

The retail/sales industry is now a perpetual race to the bottom. The businesses that can survive on the thinnest margins will inevitably be the only ones left standing. Last year L&M had 80 or so stores. What are they at now? Over 100? Much of that growth was taking over other music stores. Nothing against L&M. They are doing a lot of things right.

But we're starting to see the same thing happen to music stores that already happened in the hardware/department/grocery stores. Mom & Pop shops will be all but gone and we'll only have L&M and maybe some American competitor trying to come into Canada like Guitar Center or something. Granted, it will take a lot longer, but it's already happening.


----------



## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> At the same time when you express what someone else will give it to you for and their answer is, "Well then go there and get it", I find that is rude and the salesperson could care less to make a sale.


You've expressed that you're only interested in the lowest possible price you can find.

Why should a retailer try to keep your business?


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steve6D said:


> You've expressed that you're only interested in the lowest possible price you can find.
> 
> Why should a retailer try to keep your business?


A retailer can't keep my business unless they're the lowest price.


----------



## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> A retailer can't keep my business unless they're the lowest price.


You've made that clear.

My question is _why _should they offer you the lowest price?


----------



## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> A retailer can't keep my business unless they're the lowest price.


i think you over estimate your influence when buying at razor thin margins. why do you think they care to retain unprofitable business? just to give themselves something to do to pass the time?
its a bit like going into a restaurant and just ordering a glass of water. dont expect them to cvalue your business very much, because there is no business without profit.
Respectfully, some retailers have expressed that theyd prefer if that sort of customer go elsewhere.
Analyzing Customers, Best Buy Decides Not All Are Welcome

not picking on you, just that your viewpoint is an interesting one. Im as cheap as probably anyone...but i still wouldnt expect anyone to open their doors much less speak to me, if there wasnt something in it for them. I know I wouldnt.


----------



## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Well, all I can say is...if a business is doing so well that they can turn away potential profit (albeit small), then good on 'em.


----------



## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

JBFairthorne said:


> Well, all I can say is...if a business is doing so well that they can turn away potential profit (albeit small), then good on 'em.


I think its recognizing that an attempt to revisit the way they do business in the long term is better than a long slow inevitable death by a thousand cuts. with big companies, esp publicly traded ones, small profits just may not be enough to be viable. Investors like bargains just as much as we do. Why would i buy stock in a company with tiny profits or frequent losses when I can invest in one that is more profitable? 
In fairness, retailers like these created their own problems many years ago when they used their tactics to run smaller businesses into the ground. I cant say i feel sorry for them. But rationally, I understand the predicament.


----------



## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

While I tend to agree in principle...I can't help but come back to "some profit is better than no profit". Especially when many of your expenses are fixed.


----------



## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

thats the problem though...if my expenses are fixed, I must meet a certain profitability threshold in order to pay for those operating expenses....i cant say to my landlord, employees, suppliers, utilities, insurance company etc "well, it was a bad year, I got lowballed a lot, so I can only afford to pay you X on the dollar compared to what we agreed on"...well I suppose you can, but it probably wont go well. suppliers will stop shipping you product or revoke your credit terms which will screw up your cashflow or just focus on their better customers, employees will quit, some landlords will evict, etc.

businesses are cannibalistic. Things have a way of going real bad when theres blood in the water.


----------



## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Woof said:


> The fact that they even have a MAP strongly suggests there is room to move on the actual selling price.


That's not really how it works.

About 10 years ago while I was working the desk at a small store, a customer walked in and showed me a product that L&M had priced at $209 and asked if we'd match it for him. I looked it up and our cost on the same product was $219 from the supplier (MSRP $309). This particular supplier had different tiers of discounts for different volumes of buying. We didn't order much from them, so we were on the lowest tier. The highest tier (probably where L&M would have been) got a price of $175 for the same product. So, at $209 they were able to seriously undercut other dealers while still turning a profit. Basically shutting other dealers completely out of the market.

MAP policies exist for several reasons. One of which is to prevent the above from occurring. Eventually the company that made that product came out with a MAP policy and set that product price at $249. Even at $249, after shipping and transaction fees, there is barely any profit on that product for small stores. But, at least they have a chance. Asking for a better deal is taking their chance away.


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Diablo said:


> thats the problem though...if my expenses are fixed, I must meet a certain profitability threshold in order to pay for those operating expenses....i cant say to my landlord, employees, suppliers, utilities, insurance company etc "well, it was a bad year, I got lowballed a lot, so I can only afford to pay you X on the dollar compared to what we agreed on"...well I suppose you can, but it probably wont go well. suppliers will stop shipping you product or revoke your credit terms which will screw up your cashflow or just focus on their better customers, employees will quit, some landlords will evict, etc.
> 
> businesses are cannibalistic. Things have a way of going real bad when theres blood in the water.


That's about the size of it. You have to put a value on your time as well. There are a lot of small businesses out there just getting by. It's nice to be your own boss and maybe what you are doing is fun or engaging but if it is just paying the bills then you are essentially working for free. The volume discounts offered to big retailers put the little guys into single digit margins and in the long run you won't last. Costs keep going up and revenue keeps going down. It's simple math. If you try and get the same margins as the big guys nobody will come near the place.


----------



## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> That's about the size of it. You have to put a value on your time as well. There are a lot of small businesses out there just getting by. It's nice to be your own boss and maybe what you are doing is fun or engaging but if it is just paying the bills then you are essentially working for free. The volume discounts offered to big retailers put the little guys into single digit margins and in the long run you won't last. Costs keep going up and revenue keeps going down. It's simple math. If you try and get the same margins as the big guys nobody will come near the place.


ya, and at that point, without profitability, the small business turns into a hobby. and theres a lot more fun hobbies than dealing with asshole customers. even golf.


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

My time is worth a lot to me so I won't necessarily shop for the lowest price if it takes much more time than a simply fair price. I've never understood the folks who rush across the border to Michigan to shop for shit they don't need, or could have bought locally, just because it's cheaper, and without regard for the cost of travel, meals, their time, and even accommodation...never mind the hassle.

Also, I figure profit margin sustains businesses and jobs, and those businesses that always undercut the competition are also the ones that don't pay their employees as well, don't retain better employees, and therefore lack the quality service found at better establishments. Quite willingly I'll pay a little more to help the deserving businesses. If there's wiggle room, fine, but somebody pays eventually.


----------



## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

JBFairthorne said:


> Well, all I can say is...if a business is doing so well that they can turn away potential profit (albeit small), then good on 'em.


It gets to the point where it's simply not worth the effort.

Working with a customer for over two hours, so I can personally make ten bucks, isn't worth it. I'd rather watch paint dry. The store would rather I watch paint dry. They need to see profit on their investment in stock. Without that, they go under.

In fact, that's exactly what happened to the store where I worked. About three years ago, the owner seemingly adopted a "whore it out" policy. It didn't matter how much profit he made. He also started buying "scratch & dent" and "second" guitars from manufacturers. His reasoning was that he could buy them cheap and sell them at a discount off of the regular price for an unscathed model. This was driven largely, he said, by the fact that there was a growing customer base of people who only were concerned with price.

Well, it all backfired on him. He couldn't pay his bills. He couldn't pay his vendors or his staff. He made a public appeal for an investor because he said he needed $500,000.00 to keep him from having to close. It was customers who were only concerned with price who were the genesis of the store's demise. Had he, instead, opted to not cater to those people and deal with customers of value, the store would still exist today.

A good deal is a fair deal, and a fair deal is only fair if it's fair to both parties. If someone continuously treats you unfairly, are you going to want to continue dealing with him?


----------



## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Steve6D said:


> A good deal is a fair deal, and a fair deal is only fair if it's fair to both parties.


----------



## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

As a small independent consumer electronics retailer (2 stores, 1.2 million in sales) for over 20 years I can definitely say it is very hard to compete on price for smaller stores. My competition was mostly the Future Shop. At the time they ran a two page ad in the local papers every day. Almost every day I had people ask me to match prices. I usually did. The only way to do this is to have a very good relationship with your distributors. I only dealt with manufacturers that would sell direct to independents. Going through a middle man there is no way you can compete with volume based chains who buy direct. Most manufacturers have buying shows once or twice a year where you would order your stock for the coming six months. I would spend a lot of time finding out what models Future Shop bought in bulk and make sure I had minimal stock of those models and maximize my stock of the next model up. I would price match the base model, often at little or no profit, until I was sold out. I would then try to up sell to the model I had lots of. That may seem like a rip off to the customer but I didn't feel that it was. We ran our own repair shop so for warranty work the customer dealt with us. Future Shop customers had to deal with a third party. We also had some video rental stores so we would offer a package of free rentals with most purchases. We would deliver the VCR, TV, Stereo, etc. to the customers home and set it up no charge. The only way small retailers can compete with chains is on service. The service has to be exemplary. You have to have a no question return policy, in store warranty service, etc. etc. As far as bargaining goes we have a large east Asian population in our town. I learned to bargain very early on. I found it quite enjoyable most of the time. I was never offended at a customer wanting a deal. Very rarely I would decline but 90% of the time we would reach a deal. Eventually Wal-Mart moved into town. There is no competing with them. I sold off the businesses and changed careers.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steve6D said:


> It gets to the point where it's simply not worth the effort.
> 
> Working with a customer for over two hours, so I can personally make ten bucks, isn't worth it. I'd rather watch paint dry. The store would rather I watch paint dry. They need to see profit on their investment in stock. Without that, they go under.
> 
> ...


And this is the consumers fault how? If you're one of those that blame customers for all your troubles then I understand your bitter attitude.
Like I said countless times, if you as a retailer, don't want to take on offer that is your choice. My choice is whether I want to accept your bottom line or walk away. Its a free enterprise. You seem to take this thick headed approach that its the customers fault that they want to try to find what the bottom line is. You seem like you'd be quite happy if everyone would come in and simply pay the listed price no questions asked. Once we get everyone on board with that then the retailers could creep them list prices sky high.
You should just skip all this crap and go straight in to real estate. People are paying over asking right now.

And just to clarify. With the Martin I just bought I never negotiated anything. He has an advertised lowest MAP price he's allowed to advertise. When I sent an email inquiring if he had the guitar in stock he told me that it would be in stock in a few days and he gave me his price. I thought about it for a few days in which it came in, then I simply ordered it paying the price he quoted me. I got the lowest price I could get anywhere and I didn't negotiate price at all. 
I negotiated for over 2 hours on my last car. Big pain in the ass. This is the #1 reason I drive cars in to the ground. I hate buying cars so I don't until I absolutely have to. They make the process so hard and lose business because of it. I'd likely replace a car sooner if it wasn't such a fiasco.


----------



## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> And this is the consumers fault how? If you're one of those that blame customers for all your troubles then I understand your bitter attitude.


I've always had a problem with a lack of fairness, regardless of the situation. With regards to selling guitars, I've always taken issue with no-value customers thinking they have value.

If I'm a retailer, and I know all you're interested in is the lowest price you can find, why do I want you as a customer?


----------



## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

My question is ,Has any music stores out right banned some people from coming in the store. You know the waist of time customer that try's out everything in the store then lowballs all items and when he does not get his way goes and buys somewhere else. I would.


----------



## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

While the discussion is certainly getting interesting, this is all pulling a bit from the original question. Based on some of the comments in this thread, I'll re-phrase a bit.

If we compared the prices of 10 different stores and they were all pretty much the same, there is probably a MAP policy on the price of that product. If the small local shop already has the same price as the large competitor, why would you try to further negotiate an even better price? Why is this unique to music stores compared to other retailers?

The closest comparison I can think of would be a hobby shop. I'm not a hobby shop guy, but I imagine they have some expensive stuff in there. Remote control airplanes and the like. Do people try to negotiate better prices with them on new products that sell for the same price almost everywhere?


----------



## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

JBM, i think theres always going to be some ppl that try to neg a better deal than the next guy. Prob even someplace like the Apple store which tightly controls its prices lol
I suspect their thought process is, 1) the smaller guy has less over head so can afford to give up a few points. 2)its easier to reach a decision maker at a small shop who has the authority to override a price 3)the small shop might be more desperate to take whatever they can get, and live with it, as posters above alluded to. 4) in some cases, smaller shops do have higher markups, which justified or not, may give the shopper the impression of gouging.5) shoppers try to leverage the "you'll be building a new long term relationship with me that will be good for your business" angle....as though the shop has never heard that one before then never seen the guy again, or only until the next time he needs a bargain, at which point he'll leverage the "come one, im a long time customer" argument.

is it unique to music stores/musicians? I dunno. If it is, i suspect its because my hunch is, musicians may have less disposable income than other demographics. Obviously a generalization, because we know lots of them buy $10k guitars, $5k amps etc., but thats a subset within a subset.


----------



## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

Distortion said:


> My question is ,Has any music stores out right banned some people from coming in the store. You know the waist of time customer that try's out everything in the store then lowballs all items and when he does not get his way goes and buys somewhere else. I would.


I did it four times in the three years I worked guitar retail.

Certain folks just aren't worth the time, regardless of what their ego tells them...


----------



## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Diablo said:


> I suspect their thought process is, 1) the smaller guy has less over head so can afford to give up a few points.


If people actually think that, they need to learn about economies of scale. The smaller guy has less overhead, but less sales volume as well. That makes an enormous difference.



> 3)the small shop might be more desperate to take whatever they can get, and live with it, as posters above alluded to.


That's a truly unfortunate reality. If their price is already fair (ie: competitive), trying to dig into their margin is borderline cruel.



> 4) in some cases, smaller shops do have higher markups, which justified or not, may give the shopper the impression of gouging.


I will be the first to admit this is true. One store I worked at was absolutely criminal in their pricing. That's why I specified shops that already price competitively. If they don't already price competitively, I'm all for negotiating a better deal.



> 5) shoppers try to leverage the "you'll be building a new long term relationship with me that will be good for your business" angle....as though the shop has never heard that one before then never seen the guy again, or only until the next time he needs a bargain, at which point he'll leverage the "come one, im a long time customer" argument.


That and, "I send all my friends here". If I didn't know the customer, I always tried to give them the benefit of the doubt. But that only lasted so long. Fool me once and all.



> is it unique to music stores/musicians? I dunno. If it is, i suspect its because my hunch is, musicians may have less disposable income than other demographics. Obviously a generalization, because we know lots of them buy $10k guitars, $5k amps etc., but thats a subset within a subset.


That's possible. I wonder if we can dig up any statistics on that kind of thing.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

jbealsmusic said:


> If we compared the prices of 10 different stores and they were all pretty much the same, there is probably a MAP policy on the price of that product. If the small local shop already has the same price as the large competitor, why would you try to further negotiate an even better price?


I wouldn't. When MFG quoted me his price it would have been ridiculous to try and negotiate further. I wouldn't have been that foolish. How did I know he was the lowest. I've been on a D-18 hunt for 2 years.
Too bad the price wasn't simply laid out. Especially cars. It would be so much better if a car price was the price, same everywhere. But its not. So we're subject to the pain in the ass game of, "ok I'll take this offer to my manager and see what he says", for 2 hours or more.
When I got the final price from MFG I didn't even ask a Canadian retailer to match because that would have been impossible.
I did try to get a few within a couple hundred but they weren't motivated and thats understandable. Since I pretty much had to order one in no matter where I went I figured why not get it from the least expensive.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

One thing I hate about some retailers is they'll whine that they can't do better and even though I'm negotiating for a low price they're trying to get as much as they can but when the shoes on the other foot and you want to trade something in, don't even think customer loyalty gives you anything. They will lowball the hell out of you. All of a sudden this supposed item that was so valuable and worth so much is worth pennies on the dollar to them coming back. Even though we all know the used market has better value than the market on new items. I realize they need a certain margin to make money but some retailers can really be ridiculous.
And this is the problem. There is much confusion because of the variance on how different music stores operate. So its hard for a retailer to blame a customer for coming in and trying to negotiate an already fairly priced item when most music stores aren't fairly priced. The customer is just playing the game they've learned along the way. The only real way around that is to study the market and know the products and market of what you are after. But according to Steve6D I'm in the very small minority of consumers who do that. According to him they need a really good salesman (I'd say crafty) to navigate them through the retailer-consumer process.


----------



## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> One thing I hate about some retailers is they'll whine that they can't do better and even though I'm negotiating for a low price they're trying to get as much as they can but when the shoes on the other foot and you want to trade something in, don't even think customer loyalty gives you anything. They will lowball the hell out of you. All of a sudden this supposed item that was so valuable and worth so much is worth pennies on the dollar to them coming back. Even though we all know the used market has better value than the market on new items. I realize they need a certain margin to make money but some retailers can really be ridiculous.


There's a formula a dealer will use on trade in gear.

If something costs $1,000.00 new, the dealer cost was $500.00 (generally speaking, most items are an "A" mark). You can expect to get an offer of $250.00 on something if it's in perfect condition. That's not just this store or that store that does that; it's an industry standard. If it's not in perfect condition, you're going to be offered less. 

You sure do seem to be whining about the deal you'll be offered on a piece of used gear, yet you're quite comfortable insisting that the retailer should just accept it when the shoe is on the other foot...



> And this is the problem. There is much confusion because of the variance on how different music stores operate.


Oh, do explain!



> So its hard for a retailer to blame a customer for coming in and trying to negotiate an already fairly priced item when most music stores aren't fairly priced. The customer is just playing the game they've learned along the way. The only real way around that is to study the market and know the products and market of what you are after.


You're talking out of both sides of your mouth here. First you say that the item is fairly priced, but then say most music stores are fairly priced. What do you base that on? By what metric are you at all qualified to determine what is "fair pricing" on an item? And, as a tip, the amount you wish to spend doesn't enter into this equation..



> But according to Steve6D I'm in the very small minority of consumers who do that. According to him they need a really good salesman (I'd say crafty) to navigate them through the retailer-consumer process.


No, according to Steve6D you're a customer who simply brings no value to a retailer. 

I thought I'd covered that.

You've still failed to explain how you have any value to a retailer as a customer. I could rattle on for an hour explaining something like that about myself. 

I guess you don't have that much to draw upon...


----------



## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Steve6D said:


> There's a formula a dealer will use on trade in gear.
> 
> If something costs $1,000.00 new, the dealer cost was $500.00 (generally speaking, most items are an "A" mark). You can expect to get an offer of $250.00 on something if it's in perfect condition. That's not just this store or that store that does that; it's an industry standard. If it's not in perfect condition, you're going to be offered less.
> ...


50% is about fair IMO....a buyer won't be willing to pay more than 75% for used vs new, so that leaves 25% margin for the store to pay for shelf space, time and admin, and opportunity cost (the possibility that the used item will deter someone from buying a new one).

Unfortunately, some other industries like jewelry for instance, are more likely to offer 15% of the value of an item, which is plain old robbery IMO. I wish women would realize how terrible of an investment jewelry is.


----------



## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

Diablo said:


> 50% is about fair IMO....a buyer won't be willing to pay more than 75% for used vs new, so that leaves 25% margin for the store to pay for shelf space, time and admin, and opportunity cost (the possibility that the used item will deter someone from buying a new one).


When I was in retail, our general rule was that, unless it was an American made piece, we wouldn't take it in if we sold the new models. Mexican Strats? Never bought one in three years. I think I bought one Epiphone, but it was an older one. "Faded" Gibsons? Nope...


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

From a previous post:
I'll be negotiating a purchase at L&M in a few weeks and will let you know how that goes.

*Update:* Traded my Epi Les Paul without the branded case and a TS9 for the Seagull 12 string I had on lease. L&M put $29 back into my bank account. I bet that doesn't happen very often.


----------

