# It's getting frustrating....



## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

I'm in my first band since 1986 and I can't remember ever running into this problem before (or maybe I just don't remember, lol). We are working on building our repertoire, one set at a time. We've been stuck on learning the same dozen tunes now for almost a month (maybe 6 rehearsals so far) and the same issue keeps cropping up. No matter what tempo we start at, every song speeds up. For example, we are doing Tracy Chapman's "Give Me One Reason", a simple, slow, 12-bar blues tune. I start it off with rhythm guitar, then our singer comes in for a verse, then the whole band comes in. And _every time_ the rest of the band comes in, the tempo jumps. Last night I got fed up with it and mentioned it to every one and they all said, "No way!" So I had the keyboard player start a click track at 96 bpm and started the song again and sure enough, as soon as everybody else joined in, we jumped ahead of the click track. We tried it four times and it happened every time. The bass player blamed the drummer, the drummer blamed the bass player and everyone else for "pushing him", the keyboardist just sat there in stony silence, and the lead singer just looked uncomfortable. This is a big problem for me. I won't even _consider_ playing in front of people if we can't resolve this. This is a pretty good group, personality wise. We get along pretty well, and, other then the drummer's occasional temper tantrums, there aren't any real conflicts in the band. I suggested to everyone that the drummer wear a headset with a click track running and we all work hard on following _him_. The idea seemed to go over alright but everyone left rehearsal kind of dejected.

So, am I expecting too much or being too anal about this? Any other suggestions how to address this? Any other personal insights from people who have experienced the same problem? Thanks for letting me vent.


----------



## zurn (Oct 21, 2009)

Maybe everyone should practice playing to a metronome by themselves between rehearsals?


----------



## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

The Drummer controls the tempo, so I'm gonna have to blame the drummer on this one.


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

It's a common problem. The conductor of an orchestra's main job at a performance is to keep time. All the musical nuances are scored and figured out ahead of time. That's the drummer's job period. But they can take it personally. You are on the right track setting a click track but even with seasoned performers it's hard to follow them because that is what they tend to do is follow the click track, then race ahead/behind . Time for the drummer to do some homework.

Another suggestion is to maybe incorporate a sound , recording etc that is not a click but is part of the music. This would give the band something to work around. You don't have to keep it forever but it will train everybody. Recording is the tell all non judgemental approach to this. Record it then set a click during playback.


----------



## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

I agree that it is the drummer's job to keep the beat and that everyone else has to follow him. Thanks for your comments and suggestions, guys. <sigh> Now I remember why being in a band can be such a challenge.


----------



## Guest (Feb 24, 2010)

Have your drummer play to a click. He should have a metronome that he practices with, right? We _all _have metronomes that we practice with regularly, right? Have him use that when you play.


----------



## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

when the song progresses - people get really into it - its a natural tendency to speed up....if our drummer didn't' keep us in check - we'd be playing at speed metal speed at the end of every song ......I will comment that I like a little bit of timing dynamics in a song....i.e. sometimes speeding up works well as an effect for parts of a song....then slowing down for the quieter parts....all part of the dynamic that makes live music really cool....but I agree - if its extreme than it can sound kinda silly


----------



## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

lbrown1 said:


> when the song progresses - people get really into it - its a natural tendency to speed up....if our drummer didn't' keep us in check - we'd be playing at speed metal speed at the end of every song ......I will comment that I like a little bit of timing dynamics in a song....i.e. sometimes speeding up works well as an effect for parts of a song....then slowing down for the quieter parts....all part of the dynamic that makes live music really cool....but I agree - if its extreme than it can sound kinda silly


Thanks.....excellent insight.


----------



## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

By the way, "Give Me One Reason" is one of my favorite songs!


----------



## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

The drummer holds the meter, end of story. He holds down the timing of the rythym section. In the past, you played with just much better drummers, or at least ones that did there homework! I know of many great drummers in my area, and one thing that they all have in common, is that they practice at home with headphones on, with the song they are trying to learn playing. If there is one thing that i can't stand, are people comming to rehersal unprepared. Rehearsals are meant to put songs together with parts learned, not to learn the parts while thier there! It just wastes everyone's time! It's all about commitment and the ability to commit. Perhaps his commitment level is not the same as everyone else's in the group, or simply lacks the ability (talent) to keep time, or because of the noise factor, practice at home. You need to do a heart to heart with your drummer. Not as a Kangaroo court at rehearsal, but a one on one and find out where his head is at. Tipping a glass or two with him will loosen him up enough to talk about it. JMHO.


----------



## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

Thanks, John. I appreciate your comments.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

lbrown1 said:


> when the song progresses - people get really into it - its a natural tendency to speed up....if our drummer didn't' keep us in check - we'd be playing at speed metal speed at the end of every song ......I will comment that I like a little bit of timing dynamics in a song....i.e. sometimes speeding up works well as an effect for parts of a song....then slowing down for the quieter parts....all part of the dynamic that makes live music really cool....but I agree - if its extreme than it can sound kinda silly


Volume changes for dynamics = cool. Speeding up and slowing down would not be cool.


----------



## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> Volume changes for dynamics = cool. Speeding up and slowing down would not be cool.


an opinion.....

.my opinion is it CAN be cool...but as my original post noted...it has to be subtle - otherwise it can sound silly...I suppose I should also add that it wouldn't be effective in all songs...but for some - it can be very very effective


----------



## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

I hope I'm not hijacking the thread but this problem brings to mind a similar frustrating "dynamics" issue that I've had with bands. Volume control! Why is it that after a short time everybody is playing "balls out" loud. I'm as guilty as the next guy but don't know how to get everyone to dial it down a notch so that there are proper dynamics in the song. Vocals get buried (and suffer 'cause the singer can't hear himself) lead breaks are lost in the wall of noise. It's like everyone is competing to be heard above everyone else. What's the best way to broach this subject and keep everyone in line?


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Hamstrung said:


> What's the best way to broach this subject and keep everyone in line?


Tattoo..less is more on your forehead. That's one of the hardest things to control on stage. Especially in tight situations when bass is hid behind drums etc etc. I am just as guilty but having my amp tilted at me is my way of keeping it down. But not hearing the monitors is the obvious sign that ALL members have to be consious of. It's a band not a collection of one man shows.


----------



## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

It's _always_ the drummer's fault.kkjuw


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Hamstrung said:


> I hope I'm not hijacking the thread but this problem brings to mind a similar frustrating "dynamics" issue that I've had with bands. Volume control! Why is it that after a short time everybody is playing "balls out" loud. I'm as guilty as the next guy but don't know how to get everyone to dial it down a notch so that there are proper dynamics in the song. Vocals get buried (and suffer 'cause the singer can't hear himself) lead breaks are lost in the wall of noise. It's like everyone is competing to be heard above everyone else. What's the best way to broach this subject and keep everyone in line?


I strongly agree this is a problem. I always listen to the drummer to set the dynamics. He can bring up the volume and pull it back. I listen to the drummer for just about everything.


----------



## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

this again - is a natural thing - we're all guilty of it - we're all getting excited and want to be heard....sometimes it works really really well - calm the whole thing if you throw acapella moments into the arrangement of a song....at the most - drums and bass only with vocals.........lets you start off with a build to that wall of noise again


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

I listen to the drummer for just about everything. 

amen to that .....musically ....9kkhhd


----------



## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Big_Daddy said:


> It's _always_ the drummer's fault.kkjuw


That needs to be a T-shirt.


----------



## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

My recent solution to the issue of overzealous dynamics (i.e., constantly increasing volume from some members) has been to show up to rehearsal with a guitar and a cord - no effects. I can no longer compete with increasing volume by stomping on pedals. I just say - I can't hear my guitar... They need to turn down so I can sing and play.


----------



## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

On the other hand you are going off time together.

When I taught and we had bands I knew they were starting to gel when they went off time together.
Then I knew we could work on staying on time.


----------



## Fajah (Jun 28, 2006)

Big_Daddy said:


> No matter what tempo we start at, every song speeds up. So, am I expecting too much or being too anal about this? Any other suggestions how to address this? Any other personal insights from people who have experienced the same problem? Thanks for letting me vent.


On the issue of tempo:

This is something that is not uncommon and let me first refer you to a thread I posted some time ago:

http://www.guitarscanada.com/low-down/29482-tempo-cool-tool.html

Your drummer, in combination with your bass player, has to take control of this. I would suggest that your drummer pick up an electronic metronome (as our drummer has) that can show a silent flashing light. My drummer has it mounted to his high hat stand and he periodically looks down at it to see if we're on tempo....or fairly close. Since the drums and bass are the backbone and back beat, they have to be on the same page first and foremost.

Volume levels vs. dynamics:

Again, drums and bass are the key when it comes to volume levels. I find that the individual drummers I've played with each have their own "natural" volume level. The bass should be matching this. All the other instruments should start on the quiet side and then bring their "rhythm" volume levels up slowly until the mix sounds right. When it comes to soloing, players should be reminded to bring their volume up during a solo and most importantly, bring it back down when they're done. 

Dynamics in a song shouldn't be confused with volume levels. Changing dynamics within a tune is a function of playing harder or softer without having to adjust volume levels. It's a technique rather than a physical thing.

All my opinion of course


----------



## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

Awesome little tool! Thanks!!!


----------



## Orcslayer (Feb 2, 2009)

I agree it's a common problem - used to run into it often, except in my last band where the drummer was a former pro & always kept good tme. 

Now I'm in a three piece - we all knew each other from other bands. When our various bands all were on the verge of breaking up around the same time, we formed our three piece. Since most bars we play in are not that large & since we all found that the larger a band, the more problems seem to happen, we decided to go with a drum machine. This had worked & now we are always on tempo. Audiences don't even seem to notice that our drummer is "Ringo in a box".


----------



## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

Orcslayer said:


> I agree it's a common problem - used to run into it often, except in my last band where the drummer was a former pro & always kept good tme.
> 
> Now I'm in a three piece - we all knew each other from other bands. When our various bands all were on the verge of breaking up around the same time, we formed our three piece. Since most bars we play in are not that large & since we all found that the larger a band, the more problems seem to happen, we decided to go with a drum machine. This had worked & now we are always on tempo. Audiences don't even seem to notice that our drummer is "Ringo in a box".


We may have to resort to this as well, if we survive. Tempers are getting to the breaking point with the band. The drummer keeps picking on the bass player as the cause of the problem. The bass player is totally losing confidence in his playing and told me yesterday that he's thinking of quitting. If he goes, our lead singer (his niece) will likely quit as well. The keyboard player is internalizing everything and totally uncommunicative. Gawd, this is becoming a soap opera. Stay tuned for the next episode of "As The Turd Whirls". kkjuw


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...this can be an even bigger issue when you perform live, because nreves and adrenalin tend to kick the tempos up even faster.

my brother solves this problem by rehearsing the songs at a slower tempo and a lower volume than anticipated.

on stage, the tempos and volume levels are usually dead on.

another rule of thumb - the volume level of the instruments should always drop by 25-40% when someone is singing.

-dh


----------



## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

david henman said:


> ...this can be an even bigger issue when you perform live, because nreves and adrenalin tend to kick the tempos up even faster.
> 
> my brother solves this problem by rehearsing the songs at a slower tempo and a lower volume than anticipated.
> 
> ...


Good points. Thanks!


----------



## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

Well, the soap opera continues, LOL. Just to update the situation...our original bass player finally quit back in June. We immediately found another one who also was a pretty good vocalist. So we carried on, in a more of a classic rock direction, which resulted in our girl singer quitting a couple of weeks later. She wants to be a Country and Western star (and I hope she makes it, sweet girl that she is). Now a four-piece band, we started getting some pretty good material together and fairly quickly, too. Until, at work today, I get an e-mail from the bass player. He has decided to quit because he has a new job driving for UPS from 10PM-4am, four nights a week.At this point, all I can do is shake my head and chuckle. Musicians are such a bunch of flakes.:banana:


----------



## Guest (Sep 10, 2010)

The drummer keeps the time, for sure even if everyone else is rushing he's the one who should hold back and keep the song at the right speed...IMO


----------

