# Tone & Volume knobs



## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I'm STILL trying to figure out what factors make these knobs as useful as possible.

I had a Larrivee RS-2 with a tone pot that had a very smooth 'wah' effect to it.

I have the 1959 Melody Maker where using the volume knob doesn't kill the treble and the tone knob is very similar to one you'd find on an effect pedal.

There's also the usability of the volume knob. How much of this has to do with the amp's ability to handle the incoming signal accordingly and pleasingly?

Is it a combination of factors (i.e pups, amp)? Sorry for all the questions, but this has been a difficult one for me to solve. The actual wiring (50s versus modern(?) doesn't seem to be a factor. 

Thanks in advance.


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## dodgechargerfan (Mar 22, 2006)

I think what you're looking for lies in the combination of things, the amp especially.

If you can get a tone you like at a volume you like but with the guitar's volume set low, you gain a lot of tone control with the volume knob.

With it set low, the guitar is sending a very clean signal. If your pedals and amp then add the gain necessary to get you to the sound you want, then turning up the guitar's volume pot pretty much just adds a bit of 'hair' to the tone. That often doesn't translate to much increase in volume but does change the tone.

That's said, a different value of pot for your volume and/or tone might give the change you want. More range (higher value pot) will give you more control, but you have to be careful because you might find the sweet spot somewhere in the middle and then beyond that is not what you want. So before changing pots, see how close you can get dialled in with what's there now. If you feel like 10 isn't quite 'open' enough, then a higher value pot might be the trick.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

possibly the taper is a thing too. audio taper vs. linear taper. for me, i like it when my pots ARENT the kind that dont do anything at all outside of 20º of rotation. i dont really know why some prefer the those type, theyre hard for me to use properly


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

dodgechargerfan said:


> I think what you're looking for lies in the combination of things, the amp especially.
> 
> If you can get a tone you like at a volume you like but with the guitar's volume set low, you gain a lot of tone control with the volume knob.
> 
> ...


I tried that yesterday (starting off at about '6' and working from there). I wasn't very satisfied with the result. It just seemed that the RS-2 worked very well with my Marshall. I've contacted Larrivee to see if they can sell me a kit or guide me to where I could.

I never use '10' on my Monty. For some reason around 9 is notably better.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

cheezyridr said:


> possibly the taper is a thing too. audio taper vs. linear taper. for me, i like it when my pots ARENT the kind that dont do anything at all outside of 20º of rotation. i dont really know why some prefer the those type, theyre hard for me to use properly


Here's some info I got from elsewhere:

_Value and taper of the potentiometers and the value of the tone cap are the key factors. The way it is wired is also worth note. Either the tone is wired to the output Jack (modern) or the tone is on the output of the volume control (vintage) each wiring model has advantages. 

I like to have the lowest value tone cap that makes sense to get usefulness out of the full range of the tone control_.

You both touch on taper, and he mentions value. How do you shop for that? Are they sold with specs I can root through until I get the right one? If that is your preference (which sounds right up my alley), how do you get them?


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

adcandour said:


> The actual wiring (50s versus modern(?) doesn't seem to be a factor.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Something's wrong here... there's a definite difference between 50's and modern, it goes to whether or not the treble is bled off before or after the volume pot and the difference should show up both at the tone pot and the volume pot.

If you're not hearing a difference maybe the wiring isn't actually done as it was described to you.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Jimmy_D said:


> Something's wrong here... there's a definite difference between 50's and modern, it goes to whether or not the treble is bled off before or after the volume pot and the difference should show up both at the tone pot and the volume pot.
> 
> If you're not hearing a difference maybe the wiring isn't actually done as it was described to you.


Sorry. I wasn't too clear in that area. 

I realize that there's a definite difference in 50s versus modern, but I need to know why some guitars do it better than others. 

I'm going to snap a photo of the guts in my Monty and see if anyone can identify the wiring style. I believe Brian asked me and I went for 50s wiring. Maybe I'm asking for the wrong style (but I was told from the tech at Capsule music that 50s is for tweakers - which I am).

I would really like to know more about the wiring in my Larrivee RS-2 (I no longer own it).

I would love to do a video, but could need two guitars for reference.

Here's what I mean for wah-like on the tone knob (I set it up to start at *8 minutes*, so hope it works). This is a 50s guitar, so I suspect it's 50s wiring


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

adcandour said:


> You both touch on taper, and he mentions value. *How do you shop for that?* Are they sold with specs I can root through until I get the right one? If that is your preference (which sounds right up my alley), how do you get them?


An interesting article from 2008...

http://www.premierguitar.com/articles/diagnosing-volume-pots-1

Copied and pasted form the article...*(I did the bolding)*

*The taper
*
I imagine we've all experienced this problem – the volume control acts useless, more like an on/off switch, rather than having a smooth and even taper over the whole range of the pot. This is part of the game when using passive guitar systems – *some guitars suffer more from this problem than others.* As you know, everything always affects everything else when it comes to passive guitar systems, and there are a number of possible causes for this problem. Thankfully, there are some things you can do to get rid of it. First and foremost, it’s crucial to make sure that your volume pot has an audio taper. Modern audio tapered pots typically have a ratio of 90:10 or 80:20, which is not bad, but a ratio of 70:30 or 65:35 works much better inside a guitar. That’s one of the reasons why a lot of guys are looking for the 1950s Centralab pots, way back in the golden day of electric guitars. *These pots offered a ratio of approximately 65:35, which worked perfectly inside passive guitars. So, the goal is to find a pot with such a taper.*

The only company I know offering such pots is Hamer. Personally, I use the Hamer volume pots in all of my guitars, and I have to say that they are a huge improvement when you are using your volume controls a lot. The taper is very smooth, and every little movement of the pot causes an even reduction of the volume, down to zero. These pots are available as 250k and 500k versions, and both come in different sizes and shaft lengths with solid or knurled shaft versions. To get these, start with your local Hamer dealer. The gentleman who was kind enough to send me these pots for all of my guitars (in total, 60 pots or so), was Mr. Greg Platzer from BCR Music. If you can’t find these pots anywhere else, I''m sure that Greg will be able to help. RS Guitarworks offers a product called "the super pot"; I’ve never tried one, but I had some feedback from customers who reported that these pots have closer tolerances of the nominal value, but that the taper is more or less identical to the standard CTS pots.

I also found this on Wiki:

*Linear taper potentiometer[edit]*

A _linear taper potentiometer_ (_linear_ describes the electrical characteristic of the device, not the geometry of the resistive element) has a resistive element of constant cross-section, resulting in a device where the resistance between the contact (wiper) and one end terminal isproportional to the distance between them. Linear taper potentiometers [3] are used when the division ratio of the potentiometer must be proportional to the angle of shaft rotation (or slider position), for example, controls used for adjusting the centering of the display on an analog cathode-ray oscilloscope. Precision potentiometers have an accurate relationship between resistance and slider position.

*Logarithmic potentiometer[edit]*

A _logarithmic taper potentiometer_ has a resistive element that either 'tapers' in from one end to the other, or is made from a material whose resistivity varies from one end to the other. This results in a device where output voltage is a logarithmic function of the slider position.[4]

Most (cheaper) "log" potentiometers are not accurately logarithmic, but use two regions of different resistance (but constant resistivity) to approximate a logarithmic law. The two resistive tracks overlap at approximately 50% of the potentiometer rotation; this gives a stepwise logarithmic taper.[5] A logarithmic potentiometer can also be simulated (not very accurately) with a linear one and an external resistor. True logarithmic potentiometers are significantly more expensive.

Logarithmic taper potentiometers are often used in connection with audio amplifiers as human perception of audio volume is logarithmic.

I will be very interested in what others have to say on this topic.

This whole pot taper issue ticks me off as a smooth taper vs a "jumpy" taper seems to be a crap shoot when you are buying them.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Interesting. I came across something while I was looking for info on a casing for soapbox '79 PU's (Gibson LP) that would house it in a standard humbucker route.. Somehow I ended up in this thread with a post that is not exactly what you are looking for maybe, but very similar. It's quite a good one actually.



> *How to Use the Controls on a Les Paul*
> Because a couple of people asked about it, here is the stuff I wrote in another thread about using the controls on a Les Paul. The OP asked how to use the controls to get sounds like Page and other classic players. My reply includes some alternative suggestions on how you might EQ your amp to get a different range of noises, and get a little bit more out of the neck and middle positions.
> 
> Hope it's of some use. Here it is:
> ...


Sorry if this doesn't apply specifically to the question, but I thought it may be worth sharing for some people.

Link: http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tonefreaks/48038-how-use-controls-les-paul.html


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

So, I ended up purchasing these pots. The communication wasn't the greatest (I did receive them quite quickly though), so I'm not certain of the ratio. I do know that they meet my criteria re comments above.

How hard is it to install this on my own?


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## Guest (Mar 26, 2016)

I never seen pots like that before.
What are they?
As to installing them, if you've honed your soldering skills,
you should have no problem doing it. Heck, I'm soldering 
stuff now too .. and you remember when we met for coffee?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

laristotle said:


> I never seen pots like that before.
> What are they?
> As to installing them, if you've honed your soldering skills,
> you should have no problem doing it. Heck, I'm soldering
> stuff now too .. and you remember when we met for coffee?


I think these are Alessandro pots:

*Guitar Potentiometers*






Finest guitar pots available. Alessandro proprietary custom audio taper. This audio-taper pot eliminates the "jumpiness" of the lesser-quality pots. Alessandro custom 1W Military-Specification Carbon Custom Taper Pots Come Standard with:


1/2" bushing
1/4" solid Stainless Steel shaft
Requires 3/8" mounting hole


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

I had a bunch but only have a few PEC pots left...they don't look anything like those and one thing for sure...
on mine, you cant solder to the body housing...it just wont stick.
I'm too lazy but PEC pots are made in Toronto...
look up the web site ....if I remember right its very extensive..
Maybe now they have those Alessandro pots where it does seem like you can solder to the casing.
IF they do and someone wants to place an order....count me in...the specs on those PEC pots are military grade and as good as it gets.

G.

ps
as to a previous post where a specific optimum ration is stated....sounds like a great idea BUT
I have never seen a pot that was accompanied by its ratio number.

**** late night update*****
Ok so I looked up the web site for Precision Electronics Corporation.
I didnt see and Alessandro pots but they are obviously made by PEC.
By the way...on the Alessandro web site, those cute looking pots sell for $50 US each.

Again, I didnt see any notification anywhere on this infamous 65:35 ratio,
or whatever ratio the pots have. Must be one of the best kept secrets in the industry.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

laristotle said:


> I never seen pots like that before.
> What are they?
> As to installing them, if you've honed your soldering skills,
> you should have no problem doing it. Heck, I'm soldering
> stuff now too .. and you remember when we met for coffee?


Greco is correct. They are Alessandro pots.

I opened up the cavity on my Monty LP to check out the wiring. Actually, I just wanted to see if I had to solder to a pot itself. I've had a hard time doing that in the past, so don't really want to chance messing it up. It's my understanding that you can damage the pot, if you over-heat it (I would likely do that).


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2016)

adcandour said:


> It's my understanding that you can damage the pot, if you over-heat it (I would likely do that).


Use a heat sink.


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

laristotle said:


> Use a heat sink.


AKA Roach Clip!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There are two aspects to the feel of a volume pot. One is certainly the stability, smoothness of the movement, and responsiveness to touch -very similar to the difference in the way some car doors feel cheap and flimsy and others just feel solid and well-made.

The other aspect to feel is the taper of the pot. Everybody here owes it to themselves to read the now-classic piece on RG Keen's GEOFEX website, entitled "The Secret Life of Pots". One of the things you quickly realize is that the various _nominal_ tapers are simply a standard to aim for. Sometimes, amanufacturer nails it, and sometimes they don't. In my own experience, the larger the diameter of the pot, two things are usually true: the wiper is of higher quality, and the taper has a hgher probability of being very close to spec. Larger pots distribute the resistive material that forms the strip over a wider and longer area, nd the wiper usually has enough room to be designed differently, such that is is less abrasive to the strip.

Much like the difference between budget and high-end guitars, smaller cheaper pots can be hit and miss, with some being very good, while higher-end usually provide an attention to, and assurance of, quality and consistency.

Four-control guitars present a particular kind of case. Consider that when the volume pots are both up full, and both pickups are on, the output jack is effectively connected directly to both pickups. However, in parallel with those pickups are two volume-pot resistances to ground (let us say 2 x 500k = 250k in parallel), and two tone pots, whose treble bleed actually combines.

Some 4-knob guitars are wired up such that the selector comes after the controls, and some are wired up such that the selector comes before the controls. When the selector comes last, the settings for pickup A have no impact on the settings for pickup B, *unless both pickups are on*. When the signal has to pass through the selector to get to the controls, the controls for pickup A are always impacting on the settings for pickup B. I suspect - though cannot confirm - that "50's wiring" is intended to provide less interaction between controls when the selector comes first.

As for whether the tone pot is tied to the input lug vs wiper of the volume pot, you can expect a LOT more control-interaction when the tone comes "after" the volume pot, and the selector switch comes first. I would imagine that any guitar using two volumes and one tone likely has the single tone pot tied to the wipers (which are connected to each other and the output jack), and the selector first.


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## StratCat (Dec 30, 2013)

laristotle said:


> Use a heat sink.


That's some nice looking solder! I have much to learn and practice. 

I've been struggling with pots lately as well as I installed Dimarzio Fast Track and Tone Zone pups with a single coil in the middle on my 1990 Squire Strat. I wondered if I needed 250k or 500k tone pots given the track pups are humbuckers in a single coil size. Dimarzio web page with all their schematics did not state the recommended pot rating (I guess it's subjective). I also spoke with tech at Capsule and did not walk away with any revelations prior to installation.

So I went for 250k CTS pots from L&M (volume, tone, tone) and reused the capacitor that was in the guitar. I followed the same schematic as that of my 57 Reissue hot rod strat* that has the bridge pup wired to tone control (which i like) but the results were not to my liking. The tones were acting more like on/off blankets to the point that below 3 there is virtually no sound (with volume on 10). 

The markings on the back of the pots are E085 250K CTS. There is no indication of A (audio taper) or B (Linear taper).

Just this weekend I swapped out the FT and TZ for Dimarzio Virtual Vintage Heavy Blues single coil pups, and they sound really nice but the drop in volume using the tones controls still occurs below 3. I don't have an explanation. My thinking is it's either the taper (unknown) or the quality of the pots. Perhaps the capacitor is pooched. I specifically sought out CTS pots given their quality reputation. Those Alessandros definitely look several steps up in the QA department though (and price).

*57 Reissue Hot Rod Strat originally came with 2 SCN pups (neck, mid) and the Dimarzio Tone Zone. I swapped these out for Lollar Blackface Single coils. The pots on this strat are all 250k (originally from Fender with the TZ installed), which was why I went with 250k on the Squire.


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

laristotle said:


> Use a heat sink.


Nice! So where would you use a heat sink to solder to the back of the pot?
P.S. Something for giggles(not mine!)


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

@adcandour...Did you find that harness used somewhere? 
I have always been curious about Alessandro pots.

I would suggest practicing your soldering on an old pot ....and possibly refreshing your memory by watching a YouTube video.

Please keep us updated regarding the pot swap/soldering and the "taper" characteristics of the new pots. Thanks.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

PRS uses some impressive pots. I don't know if they manufacture them in-house or farm it out. Likely the latter. The rotation feels smooth with just the right amount of resistance and the taper is very, very good. They have always had excellent pots and they've been working on perfecting their tapers for a couple of decades. I don't know for certain but I would imagine it's a less expensive route to go than choosing Alessandro and easier to source as well. Any time I've seen pricing on Alessandro products or services I shake my head in wonder. Any L&M will have PRS pots in stock or else have access to them. I put them in my Epi LP and the difference was night and day.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

bzrkrage said:


> Nice! So where would you use a heat sink to solder to the back of the pot?
> P.S. Something for giggles(not mine!)


I'm interested in this answer


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## Guest (Mar 27, 2016)

I really don't know. Vice grips? lol.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

davetcan said:


> I'm interested in this answer





laristotle said:


> I really don't know. Vice grips? lol.


There's enough thermal mass in the pot body itself you wouldn't need a sink, unless you're soldering with a torch.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

...which is why it's so hard to solder to the back of pots.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

mhammer said:


> ...which is why it's so hard to solder to the back of pots.


Indeed. It helps to have an adjustable iron, so you can get it hot and tinned before you try and solder any components on.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

greco said:


> @adcandour...Did you find that harness used somewhere?
> I have always been curious about Alessandro pots.
> 
> I would suggest practicing your soldering on an old pot ....and possibly refreshing your memory by watching a YouTube video.
> ...


Sorry for the delay.

I will definitely keep you posted. I haven't decided whether I'm doing it myself or not. All my free time is going to packing or getting ready for our move.

I bought these new from Alessandro.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

cboutilier said:


> Indeed. It helps to have an adjustable iron, so you can get it hot and tinned before you try and solder any components on.


So it's just a matter of taking time with it? It seemed to take forever (I was worried I was doing damage).


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

You shouldn't have any issue soldering to the back of pots, or spring clamps like a strat bridge ground wire or any other heavy parts.

1. Use a large hot iron with freshly tinned and fluxed tip - mine is an 80 watt Fuller and for CTS pots I use a 1/4" wide tip which is supposed to develop about 75% of that 80 watts.

2. Sand with 1200 and flux and tin the location on the pot - also tin the wire you're joining.

If you did your tinning and fluxing and if you're using the right iron and right tip, and if you're touching both the pot and the wire you want to join and heating them both at the same time, they'll be hot enough to add solder in a few seconds, a few more seconds and you're done.

Pots get cooked by under powered irons left in place for far too long, still not hot enough when you add the solder you then further cook the pot waiting for the solder to melt. No no no, I like a super hot iron for a few seconds, it works perfectly for me and I can't find an easier and faster way.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

adcandour said:


> (I was worried I was doing damage).


Personally, I think this thread is now going a bit in circles.
I think the key to good soldering is to make the joint as quickly as possible...and yes, if you take forever on any joint, you risk having the heat damage something...including a pot. I literally cooked a pot when I first started trying to solder the ground wire to them.
Personally, FWIW, I would wait until you move and then try to solder in a relaxed situation where you can focus. Again, I advise practicing on an old potentiometer. Start by first cleaning the back of the pot where you want to solder (THIS IS IMPORTANT!) with some emery cloth and put a small "puddle" of solder there by touching your soldering iron that has a bit of"melted" solder on it and then fed the solder into the iron. When it flows, lift the iron and stop. You can then tin the end of the wire and hold it onto the "puddle" of solidified solder and bring your iron (again with a bit of melted solder on it) onto the wire and puddle and heat it until the solder flows. As soon as it flows, lift your iron and let it cool. Don't move anything and don't blow on the joint. The finished joint should have a shine and not look "dull".

Here is a quick video:






Jimmy_D posted while I was typing....he wins...LOL


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Jimmy_D said:


> You shouldn't have any issue soldering to the back of pots, or spring clamps like a strat bridge ground wire or any other heavy parts.
> 
> 1. *Use a large hot iron with freshly tinned and fluxed tip *- mine is an 80 watt Fuller and for CTS pots I use a 1/4" wide tip which is supposed to develop about 75% of that 80 watts.
> 
> ...


Yes, yes, yes. I can't overstate how important the size of the tip is - more so than just using higher and higher temperatures. 

If you are soldering to little surface area (pads in pcb's, lugs on pots) a small very tapered tip, about the size of a pencil, works fine. If you are trying to heat something large, like a heatsink or the back of a pot, a large spadelike tip is the best. You want something with mass that will transfer a lot of heat energy in a short time. That's why good soldering irons come with with the ability to change tips for different sizes.

In both cases (pot lugs or pot backs), you should be applying heat for the same amount of time - about 2 seconds at most. Any more than that, and you are transferring the heat all the way through the device. This is from the PACE Mil-spec soldering course I've attended a couple of times.


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