# Melodic minor - use and internalizing



## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

Hey Guys,

Just wonder how many of you guys use the melodic minor and it's modes?

I have been pretty intensely focusing on it for a bit, as I'd really love to have neck-wide command of it. I have always LOVED the minor7#5 chord (which is the 3rd chord in the harmonizing of this scale). Some of the dense harmony is just great.

What is your experience with using and internalizing it? 
What chords/applications do you find it works really well with?


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## GuyB (May 2, 2008)

Isn't the third mode of the melodic minor scale a maj7#5 instead ??

C melodic minor : C, D, Eb, F, G, A, B
The third mode (Lydian #5) : Eb, F, G, A, B, C, D
When stacked in third you get : Eb, G, B, D wich is a Ebmaj7#5

The minor 7b5 comes from the sixth mode (Locrian Nat 2 or Aeolian b5) : A, C, Eb, G wich is a Am7b5

As for the use of the MM and its modes, there is too much to be said and I don't have the time right now. Just to mention the most frequent : the use of the seventh mode (Altered scale) on dom7 and alt7 chords when they resolve to the I chord; or the use of the fourth mode (Lydian dominant) on non-resolving dom7 or alt7 chord. It's truly a swiss knife in jazz.


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

Yes maj7#5 sorry, typo. Fingers apparently going faster than my brain!

"Swiss knife in jazz" is a great way to put it!


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## Fajah (Jun 28, 2006)

jeremy_green said:


> Hey Guys,
> 
> Just wonder how many of you guys use the melodic minor and it's modes?
> What is your experience with using and internalizing it?
> What chords/applications do you find it works really well with?


Specific to the melodic minor itself, I find that I use it very rarely. When I do, it's in creating lines over a minor/maj7 chord when it's prominent in the tune. A perfect example (and when I first ran into it) is the tune Nica's Dream (Horace Silver). Here's one of my favourite versions:

[YOUTUBE]SbXrdm63OAA[/YOUTUBE]

On the issue of modes in general, I stopped thinking about them in my improvising (or developing lines using chord scales) a long time ago when I started studying jazz guitar online at the Jimmy Bruno Institute. I focus more on developing lines over key centers which freed up my playing. Not that studying traditional theory is a bad thing for I did for years. I just liked Jimmy's approach.


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## GuyB (May 2, 2008)

[QUOTE
On the issue of modes in general, I stopped thinking about them in my improvising (or developing lines using chord scales) a long time ago when I started studying jazz guitar online at the Jimmy Bruno Institute. I focus more on developing lines over key centers which freed up my playing. Not that studying traditional theory is a bad thing for I did for years. I just liked Jimmy's approach.[/QUOTE]

I follow you on this also Fajah. As someone said (a great jazz guitarist but I can't remember his name) learn these things - scales, modes, etc. - and then, when you play, forget them ! After lots of practice, when I play over an alt7 chord, I don't say to myself : "Now, I have to play the altered scale wich is the melodic minor a half-step above the root of the alt7 !" That's impossible ! It's just that after some time, your fingers know where the good notes are on the fretboard and they can follow your mind more easily... well, sort of, most of the time !


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## Fajah (Jun 28, 2006)

GuyB said:


> It's just that after some time, your fingers know where the good notes are on the fretboard and they can follow your mind more easily... well, sort of, most of the time !


LOL... you're right. My best solos have been when my fellow bandmates have said after we finish a tune "hey, that was great, what did you do there?" My response has been, "I have no clue. I just got into the tune and played."

Unfortunately, it doesn't happen as often as I would like it to


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

GuyB said:


> It's just that after some time, your fingers know where the good notes are on the fretboard and they can follow your mind more easily... well, sort of, most of the time !


I envy you guys so much when I read things like this. I only started seriously learning to play leads a little while back, having always been a rhythm player. I have a good sense of leads and dynamics, and I can usually _hear_ interesting things in my head, but they don't always translate to my fingers so well. I find that I'm "stuck" in the pentatonic and blues scales mostly, and I throw in some minor-to-major shifts when appropriate, but I just can't wrap my head around getting into different scales and modes.

Any of you have any online resources? Preferably something really easy-to-understand!


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Hollowbody don't underestimate yourself... good rhythm players are very important. Bobby Weir still blows me away. The lead player needs some backing. With one slight change of rhythm you can change the whole texture, tempo and feel of the song.


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## GuyB (May 2, 2008)

I got seriously into theory about 3 years ago. I learned a lot. It doesn't make you a better "player" but it makes you understand things and help you save some time. I learned about scales, modes, arpegios, harmony, etc. and how to use these tools. But in the end, it's all about letting the music in you get out freely : playing what you hear. So you can't get there without constant and organized practice. Something I do frequently is to make a backup track of a simple progression, sometimes even just one chord, and practice different pool of notes on it to let my ear learn how good or not they relate. Once every 2 years, approximatively, I take a series of lessons with a good teacher that I know : invaluable. And, mainly, I get to play with others as often as I can.

One of the best book I can suggest is "Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing" from Joe Elliot (from Def Leopard). Very well structured, extensive explanation on the use of arpegios and more :

http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Jazz-Guitar-Soloing-Book/dp/0634009702


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

Hollowbody, Not sure about online but I really like Mark Levine's "Jazz Theory Book", it has some contentious points but honestly it is so well laid out. I think it is a must have for anyone interested in theory.


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## Fajah (Jun 28, 2006)

hollowbody said:


> I have a good sense of leads and dynamics, and I can usually _hear_ interesting things in my head, but they don't always translate to my fingers so well. I find that I'm "stuck" in the pentatonic and blues scales mostly.


This is the most common thing I run up against with students who want to improve on their soloing. The pentatonic scale is a physical shape that we can mimic without any theoretical knowledge. It works with a ton of tunes, especially if you're into the blues. What my students want to know (in the most simplistic terms) is "how do I get (and find) the extra notes in there to make my solos more interesting". This for me is the signal that it's time to start teaching some theory. However, how it's taught is very important which goes to your next comment below. 



> I just can't wrap my head around getting into different scales and modes.


Allot of players find it overwhelming to point of frustration. How theory is taught is more important than the "spoon feeding of information". So, to the next point...... 



> Any of you have any online resources? Preferably something really easy-to-understand!


I think you'd be best served by seeking out a guitar teacher first (or someone you know who has knowledge). Maybe a series of lessons just to start you off. He/she can assess your current playing level which will in turn, help you to get the right online and/or physical material you need to work with. To keep it interesting, this should be in the context of the music that you like to play. It's great to acquire the knowledge but let's not forget that timing, phrasing, technique, etc also has to come into play. There's allot you can do within the confines of a pentatonic scale. 

In context with Jeremy's original post and my subsequent reply, you should know what a melodic minor scale is and how it compares to other (minor) scales. Practically, you may never use it.

All IMO of course


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

I really enjoy the Jazz Guitar Forum: The Jazz Guitar Forum - Powered by vBulletin


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

Fajah, thanks for your feedback

In complete honestly, I am pretty comfortable personally with melodic minor. Full disclosure: My actual intention with starting the thread was to get some discussion going on this board. It seemed so quiet I wanted to add something maybe we could all chat about and learn from each other. Which has happened so very cool - thanks all!

I will also say to your "Practically, you may never use it" comment that; although typically correct, I think when we don't use something, it's because maybe we stopped working with it too early. I think in order for a scale to get inside you need to spend a significant amount of time with it and its associated harmony (i.e. write several pieces using it.) For me, often times, at first the sounds of a new scale are odd and not maybe indigenous to my ears. But the more I use it, the more those kinds start to creep into my playing.

Having said that, I have always been interested with how others learn new scale forms; both physically and aurally. 
Maybe, I would be better served by asking some direct questions. So here goes!

When you learn a new scale how do you do it: 
- Do you compare it to the major scale making the associate alterations (melodic minor first mode = "Ionian b3" type thinking - minMaj7)? 
- Or do you learn it coming off chord forms? (i.e. CAGED type thinking)
- Or do you work the sound first and try and find notes based on that?
- Do you use it only ever as fragments? 
- Or do you learn the whole scale end to end?

What say you?


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

jeremy_green said:


> When you learn a new scale how do you do it:
> - Do you compare it to the major scale making the associate alterations (melodic minor first mode = "Ionian b3" type thinking - minMaj7)?
> - Or do you learn it coming off chord forms? (i.e. CAGED type thinking)
> - Or do you work the sound first and try and find notes based on that?
> ...


Whole fingerboard, end to end.

When I initially learned scales, I literally sat on the piano bench and compared notes. Two things happened right away, (1) I discovered that my Dad always had the family piano tuned down a semitone, (2) that one (whole fretboard) pattern fit every major and natural minor scale (and related modes), it simply shifted according to the tonic. The second point I should have realized sooner since I knew fully the construction of scales, however I related so much to piano I didn't get it on guitar for a day or two. I mapped out scales and chords according to what I knew, but didn't know that guitar music was written an octave higher than it sounds, or that it was written only in the treble clef. Imagine my confusion when I received my first guitar sheet music and there was no bass clef! The guitar was not a piano and that scared the pants of me...but what the hell, I was 14. 

Peace, Mooh.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

jeremy_green said:


> Hollowbody, Not sure about online but I really like Mark Levine's "Jazz Theory Book", it has some contentious points but honestly it is so well laid out. I think it is a must have for anyone interested in theory.


I'll look into it, thanks!



Fajah said:


> I think you'd be best served by seeking out a guitar teacher first (or someone you know who has knowledge). Maybe a series of lessons just to start you off. He/she can assess your current playing level which will in turn, help you to get the right online and/or physical material you need to work with. To keep it interesting, this should be in the context of the music that you like to play. It's great to acquire the knowledge but let's not forget that timing, phrasing, technique, etc also has to come into play. There's allot you can do within the confines of a pentatonic scale.
> 
> In context with Jeremy's original post and my subsequent reply, you should know what a melodic minor scale is and how it compares to other (minor) scales. Practically, you may never use it.
> 
> All IMO of course


I had a teacher for a little while a couple years back, but I ended up getting so busy that I couldn't make time for it. I think your'e right, it's probably time I looked into that again.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Once I messed around on the keyboard... a whole bunch of things made way more sense to me.


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## Fajah (Jun 28, 2006)

jeremy_green said:


> Fajah, thanks for your feedback


Always a pleasure. Love a good musical discussion.



> I will also say to your "Practically, you may never use it" comment that; although typically correct, I think when we don't use something, it's because maybe we stopped working with it too early.


For someone like me who doesn't write original music, the musical situation pertaining to a particular tune would have to arise for me to get into a specific chord scale. Now, if I was writing original music, I may want to venture into some of the obscure and rare chord forms and their associated chord scales. Fusion in many forms for example is perfect for this. 



> When you learn a new scale how do you do it:
> 
> - Or do you work the sound first and try and find notes based on that?
> - Do you use it only ever as fragments?
> ...


Sort of a combination of all 3 of the above. 

1) I first listen to a tune a million times to get it into my head.

2) I then follow the tune along with the chart and pick out the key centers for a frame of reference.

3) Next, I learn the head. The head tells me allot.

4) Lastly, in working on "creating improvisational lines" I'll start looking at individual chord scales when a passage calls for it and when the more common lines over changes aren't quite fitting. 

5) Once I got the basics of what I'm looking for, I'll play it everywhere on the neck.


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