# What truths have you learned in all your years playing, recording and gigging?



## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Inspired by this thread over TGP (What truths have you learned in all your years playing and gigging? ) I asking you, my canuk fellows what are some truths, tips, life changing experiences did you acquired over the years while playing/gigging/recording?

I don't have any life saving tips but I did learn that:

1) You better be the nicest and most professional person than the best musician in the room.
2) Enjoy what you are playing and enjoy people you are doing it with. No time for displeasure!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I never gave it much thought I guess. One thing I learned was, no matter the skill level of another player I can always learn something from them. 
I'm sure there are other truths I've learned but I'll have to give it some thought.


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## Paul M (Mar 27, 2015)

The best way to make a small fortune in the music business is to start with a big fortune.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Same thing as you @Ti-Ron. Here's how I put it: 

"There are only two kinds of music: sincere & insincere."


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

NOBODY cares about my mistakes more than I do. Hell, most of the time they don’t even notice.


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

Talent is often overrated and discipline and practice underrated.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Playing guitar does not guarantee hoards of chicks.


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

Dont matter how good you are if you are unbearable to be around then..
if you plug straight in then sir/maam you are a god among men.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Paul M said:


> The best way to make a small fortune in the music business is to start with a big fortune.


Or the best way to loose a big fortune is start a career in the music business.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

If you arent having fun, reroute. 

If you want to get paid, start a cover band

You can be the right fit and passed over

See #1


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## DaddyDog (Apr 21, 2017)

1. People want to be entertained.

2. People hiring you want you to do it for free... or very little. They don't know (or don't care) that it's 6 to 7 hours out of your day. And they don't care that you've spent days, weeks, and months learning your repertoire.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

1. I'm never going to be rich playing music.
2. When playing with others, having a good attitude is an asset much better than just having good skills.
3. The appreciation of music is widely varied depending on the demographic. 
4. A band/group always needs a leader who has a vision of what he/she wants out of it.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

don't be an a a**hole.
don't put up with a** holes.
life is too short for either.

play what you like but keep an open mind for other types / styles.
and don't be afraid to admit "we all make mistakes" , just learn from it and move on.

if it doesn't put a smile on your face, it is time to move on.

if you started the band and it wants to move in a different direction then let them,
cause you can always start a new band.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

Bringing a backup = probably won't use it.
Not bringing a backup = I'm screwed.

Listing back to a board mix of a gig is sobering.

Record your jams: Don't lose song ideas.


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

I remember a studio player on TPG that used to say: Your ear lies in the moment (ie: record yourself if you want to know what you really sound like). Great advice


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

It is about the music not the players.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Derek_T said:


> I remember a studio player on TPG that used to say: Your ear lies in the moment (ie: record yourself if you want to know what you really sound like). Great advice


Even recordings lie to me. The many times I've been in the studio many of my solos are pieces taken from several tracks that I recorded. The engineer makes me sound dam good.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Kerry Brown said:


> It is about the music not the players.


This hits strong with me. I haven't always liked all the material I've had thrown at me but I work hard to do my best on it. A lot of times I'll end up liking a song I didn't previously like.


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

guitarman2 said:


> Even recordings lie to me. The many times I've been in the studio many of my solos are pieces taken from several tracks that I recorded. The engineer makes me sound dam good.


Yes I've done it myself but always felt like it was cheating . When I say recording I meant just using a looper, nothing to hide.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Budda said:


> You can be the right fit and passed over


Yeah, I learned that one the hard way! I was so sad when I got the message that the band leader deceided to let me go after a little over a month enjoying my time with the bands and learning (and enjoying) the songs!


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## CathodeRay (Jan 12, 2018)

The ability to carve out a song is more important than a wealth of technical knowledge.

Everyone's goal should be to make the music more than the sum of its parts. It's a team sport, not a dunking competition.

That said, whoever is ON that night, whoever's got THE groove, the muse, the energy, the indefinable thing happening for whatever reason - tap into it and let them be the lead dog that gives everyone energy and direction.

Listening skills are underrated. 

It's been stated above but I'll add my vote - it's the people, they gotta energize you, make you feel good, put a smile on your face, make you want to practice.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

"Yes" is how you succeed.
There is such a thing as too late.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

you are only as good as the when, why and how of your vibrato.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

If you let them steal from you, they will. Hell is full of musical amateurs. In recording serve the song. On stage, serve yourself by serving the public. The singer sells the song.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Learn to read music...dots, tab, lead sheets, fake books...everything. Your ear isn't as good or as fast as you think it is.

Booze solves nothing. I thought it solved my stage fright issues. Yeah, right, it just made me an asshole.

Bring instrument back-ups for gigs, and alternatives for recording sessions. The number of times I've extended my usefulness by being a multi-instrumentalist is about half my sessions. Conversely, if you can't play something, don't pretend and embarrass yourself...instead refer the work to a known pro...referrals return.

Always lend a hand to others at load in and load out after very promptly dealing with your own shit. Do it, it's brownie points in the bank.

Hands off the womenfolk, menfolk, anyfolk...just keep your hands to yourself.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Shit happens. Be ready!


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

guitarman2 said:


> This hits strong with me. I haven't always liked all the material I've had thrown at me but I work hard to do my best on it. A lot of times I'll end up liking a song I didn't previously like.


One of our band members is a John Mayer fan. I’ve always thought his music is just meh. He convinced us to play Something Like Olivia. It is now one of my favourite songs to play and it’s a crowd favourite.


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## Stephenlouis (Jun 24, 2019)

DELETED, MISREAD QUESTION DUE TO LACK OF COFFEE.


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## CathodeRay (Jan 12, 2018)

Doug Gifford said:


> "Yes" is how you succeed.
> There is such a thing as too late.


Oh man, that's a good one.
Passive "maybes" mean pretty much instant NO for me.

Just get off your butt and do it, we've only got a few years available in this life. This is the stuff we'll remember.


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## Pat James (5 mo ago)

In terms of hidden truths or wisdom, I think it would have to be what I learned at the very beginning and what has kept me motivated to keep playing which is: play and learn the stuff that sounds good to you. Listen to the guitar parts in new music and if something catches your ear that you like the sound of, look it up. For me, guitar and music isn't' about "thinking" as much as it is about, "feeling". I don't pick up the guitar unless I feel like it. That might sound bizarre, but I'm not going to do something as a hobby unless I enjoy doing it. I have enough things that I "have" to or "should" do. Guitar should be about freedom...at least for me.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

Mooh said:


> Always lend a hand to others at load in and load out after very promptly dealing with your own shit. Do it, it's brownie points in the bank.


This times two. Always be the guy that helps load out. It took me a while to realize not everyone is as organized as me. I always have extra cables, picks, strings, pliers, screwdrivers, flashlight, etc. I can load in and out in ten minutes tops. Once setup up I can be ready to play in five minutes. Not everyone is like this so no sense losing sleep over it. I use the time gained to help others set up or tear down. Always, always help the sound guy.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Adcandour said:


> you are only as good as the when, why and how of your vibrato.


Pro Tip, put a Evertune bridge set to lock position and never do vibrato again! 
Problem solved!


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

meet the sound guy in advance and treat them well

j


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Mooh said:


> Always lend a hand to others at load in and load out after very promptly dealing with your own shit. Do it, it's brownie points in the bank.


Its always been one of my strong work ethics to not shy away from the physical work. We currently had a drummer in the band who is 69 and not in the greatest physical shape. He doesn't help with any of the loading in or out. Just attends to his drums. Last Saturday night we had finished all the loading up (we have a lot of gear) and his drums were all packed up on the stage. When he went out to get his car pulled up I started grabbing drums to carry out. I've always considered the job not over to everyone is out. 



Mooh said:


> Hands off the womenfolk, menfolk, anyfolk...just keep your hands to yourself.


In the 80's when I toured this bit of advice was hard. But to be fair the women weren't keeping their hands off me either.


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## bluesguitar1972 (Jul 16, 2011)

Expensive gear is more for the musician than audience


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

There’s always going to be a guy (or girl) with better gear, better chops, or both. So what! Keep doing what you love.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Alcohol, classical music and firearms are not a good mix.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Use less gain.


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## PBGas (Jan 14, 2017)

something can and will go wrong - this is the gift of live music!
always have a backup! You don't have time to diagnose a tube amp at a gig....use the backup!
No one gives a crap as to what boutique amp or state of the art modeller you are using! They want to hear the songs! 
Someone will always ask you if that is a Les Paul (points to my Ibanez) "Yup! Sure is!" is what I say 
Smile through the mistakes and no one is the wiser...even when your singer starts on the wrong chord. 
Have fun because if you aren't then it is not worth it.
Enjoy the fact that we can do this now because a couple of years back, we could not!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

PBGas said:


> Smile through the mistakes and no one is the wiser...even when your singer starts on the wrong chord.


Over the years I've been in bands where there was that one guy (always a drummer) where if he heard anyone else in the band make a mistake, even a barely noticeable one, he'd shake his head, scowl and his drumming would get louder. Basically would throw a temper tantrum. I wanted so much to reach back and strangle him even if it wasn't me he was carrying on about.


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

My advice is to take all advice (including my own) given on a forum with a huge grain of salt.

Understand that advice is coming at you with different experiences, experience levels, genres, goals, and biases, then judge their advice accordingly.

Be prepared to try anything, but learn to stick with what’s reliable/works.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Wardo said:


> Alcohol, classical music and firearms are not a good mix.


If I were drunk, I might enjoy this more.... About 6:10 for cannon prep, 8:00 for deafening several hundred people in the crowd.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Pat James said:


> That might sound bizarre, but I'm not going to do something as a hobby unless I enjoy doing it.


IMO, that does not sound bizarre at all. I can't imagine having any hobby that I didn't enjoy.


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## Robhotdad (Oct 27, 2016)

1. If all you do is entertain, you've done your job. You'll get better over time, just keep doing it.
2. In terms of swinging rock music, the drummer is everything. If the drummer is good and sings well, you're gold.
3. Be professional, do your job, then go home. No drinking, no groupies. Those two lead to s**t.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Listen to, and learn from others, and other perspectives, but stay true to yourself and your strengths.
Many times less is more, simpler is better, and more is just annoying. Do your bit and get out of the way, so others can do theirs.
Sometimes you gotta turn up, and sometimes you gotta turn down. Learn to recognize the circumstances that demand each. Not just at a gig, but at work, and in relationships.


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## Pat James (5 mo ago)

greco said:


> IMO, that does not sound bizarre at all. I can't imagine having any hobby that I didn't enjoy.


I just have a difficult time understanding the people who have the mindset of, "every morning I practice for 60 minutes, even if I don't want to."


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Don't expect producers and engineers, or band leaders for that matter, to know if everyone is in tune. 

For example, at a session I took a break while a flautist added their parts. When I came back and heard how sharp they were I had to say something. Apparently the player didn't know they could tune and the control room were clueless. It's a much more common problem than I would have dreamed. Having some negotiation skills helps and being kind when addressing the problem is essential. In this instance, I taught them how to tune, and luckily there were no bruised egos.

A similar thing happened on a session where both the upright bass player and 12 string guitarist were out of tune. They didn't like being told, and took offence. I was appalled at the time but I learned not to be surprised. I got the boot, but was called back when they realized my intentions were good. I'm not a control freak on someone else's session but I don't want to be associated with crap. One has to balance quality and dignity with ego and paying the mortgage. 

What's that old t-shirt? Tune it or die!


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## GuitarT (Nov 23, 2010)

The audience doesn't care whether you're playing through a $200 pedal board or a $2,000 pedal board.

A bass player can make or break the sound of any band.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Pat James said:


> I just have a difficult time understanding the people who have the mindset of, "every morning I practice for 60 minutes, *even if I don't want to*."


The "even if I don't want" does come in to play sometimes. If I'm getting ready for a show and have a lot of originals and covers to learn for that show, I will be down in my music room every night before hand, even if I don't want to. Sometimes I only have a week or 2 notice and maybe one band rehearsal. In those circumstances I really have to do my homework. And I don't always have the desire to spend the night after work in my music room, although mostly I do.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

guitarman2 said:


> Over the years I've been in bands where there was that one guy (always a drummer) where if he heard anyone else in the band make a mistake, even a barely noticeable one, he'd shake his head, scowl and his drumming would get louder. Basically would throw a temper tantrum. I wanted so much to reach back and strangle him even if it wasn't me he was carrying on about.


Imagine how much easier it would have been to smile through those mistakes if you actually did strangle that drummer. You would have been grinning from ear to ear!





Mooh said:


> For example, at a session I took a break while a flautist added their parts. When I came back and heard how sharp they were I had to say something. Apparently the player didn't know they could tune and the control room were clueless


Wait a second.... you're telling me a session flautist did not know how to tune a flute?
This seems crazy to me. I believe you... but still, crazy.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> A lot of times I'll end up liking a song I didn't previously like.


Good for you! I wish I could cop that attitude.

It's bad enough for me that I hate the song more & more, but when changing the repertoire, and those two never got axed.. well, time to split (_Dead or Alive_ by Bon Jovi & _Can't You See_ by Marshall Tucker) 



Sketchy Jeff said:


> meet the sound guy in advance and treat them well


Says the sound guy.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

KapnKrunch said:


> Good for you! I wish I could cop that attitude.
> 
> It's bad enough for me that I hate the song more & more, but when changing the repertoire, and those two never got axed.. well, time to split (_Dead or Alive_ by Bon Jovi & _Can't You See_ by Marshall Tucker)
> 
> ...


No I'm with you in the circumstances where old standards are thrown in. I think adding those old, over used standards (Think Sweet Home Alabama) is lazy. I understand it when a band is first forming and you've got gigs relatively quick and don't have time to fill out a strong set list but a good band should be doing everything they can to eliminate them fast. Its fine to do the odd request as for the most part you can jam them.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> to learn for that show, I will be down in my music room every night


Yup. I learned fifty songs in a month to get in one band. Funny thing is that I really enjoyed the challenge that once. Wouldn't even consider it at 72 years old.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

KapnKrunch said:


> Yup. I learned fifty songs in a month to get in one band. Funny thing is that I really enjoyed the challenge that once. Wouldn't even consider it at 72 years old.


I'm 62 and I've been doing it for the last couple years. Its been tougher to get them tighter as gigs have been far in between. At 72 I expect to be retired from live gigging. I don't plan on any longer than 70. I do feel as good as when I was 40 but who knows how long that will last.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

guitarman2 said:


> Basically would throw a temper tantrum. I wanted so much to reach back and strangle him even if it wasn't me he was carrying on about.





Mark Brown said:


> Imagine how much easier it would have been to smile through those mistakes if you actually did strangle that drummer. You would have been grinning from ear to ear!


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Mistakes. Gonna make 'em. I quote my son's advice... 

"The only thing that is embarassing is if you are embarassed." 

I have seen some great shows where they capitalized on the humour of a mistake. 

"This ain't Milli Vanilli," said Stompin' Tom.

"The mood has been ruined," Gord Lightfoot when a fire door slammed during a sensitive intro. 

Plus maudlin "attempts" to make it look like nothing happened. 

You get the idea


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

laristotle said:


>


The other guitarist like to hit the drummer's cymbals with his Strat headstock. The drummer told him: 

"I just got this one. it was expensive. You can hit the others, but don't hit this one!" 

Of course he made that mistake. The song stopped dead. The drummer was burly dude with a genuine appreciation of petty violence. He summoned the guitarist to come over. The guitarist sheepishly approached. The drummer took the guitar and hit him on the head with it. Not too hard, though, and the show went on. One of my fave all-time band moments.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Play what you like and have fun, without regard for what others think.

In any band, the right drummer gets you a good chunk of the way there.

In terms of effects, keep it simple.

But the single most important lesson: I was deep into shredding as a teen, and I got pretty effing fast. I got to university, and the girls all went for the guy who could play "The Joker" by Steve Miller. Lesson learned.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

Pat James said:


> I just have a difficult time understanding the people who have the mindset of, "every morning I practice for 60 minutes, even if I don't want to."


Yeah, it's because exerting willpower, or forcing yourself, isn't sustainable in the long run. But if you make it a habit, it becomes more automatic.

If it becomes a habit, then it's easier to stick to. A habit kind of overrides what you do/don't feel like doing.

Some people use the microhabit approach to help develop a habit more easily. (This is the closest thing I could find for musicians.)


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

Pat James said:


> I just have a difficult time understanding the people who have the mindset of, "every morning I practice for 60 minutes, even if I don't want to."


It just depends on where playing guitar sits in your life priority. No right or wrong answer here.
I want to get better at guitar, because I found improving ones skills in a craft to be a sustainable source of fulfillment.

It does not mean it's always shit and giggles, sometimes I don't feel like it, but I feel good for having done it, because it gets me closer to my long term goal of being a well rounded guitar player.
Certain genre of music requires more time and dedication than others, so depending on what you play you might have to work harder before you can have fun.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Mark Brown said:


> Wait a second.... you're telling me a session flautist did not know how to tune a flute?
> This seems crazy to me. I believe you... but still, crazy.


The flute is in several pieces, one of them being the embrochure/mouthpiece. One can lengthen or shorten the total tube length by moving it around...a bit.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

mhammer said:


> The flute is in several pieces, one of them being the embrochure/mouthpiece. One can lengthen or shorten the total tube length by moving it around...a bit.


I know this. I am just amazed someone who plays the instrument does not know this.

I suppose one might never have the need if they mostly casually play alone?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Pat James said:


> I just have a difficult time understanding the people who have the mindset of, "every morning I practice for 60 minutes, even if I don't want to."


All expertise requires practice. You don't get to be Guthrie Govan by sitting on your keister and watching Tik-Tok. The key aspect is what *kind* of practice. Even body-builders know you can't just do the same limited array of exercises. You have to vary it up. A good musician will find ways to engage themselves in that day's practice and get something more out of it than mere repetition. Good practice should result in an a-ha moment or two every time. If it's boring, you're not doing it right.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Mark Brown said:


> I know this. I am just amazed someone who plays the instrument does not know this.
> 
> I suppose one might never have the need if they mostly casually play alone?


Knowing the fingering and playing the notes is not the same as having a good ear for pitch, or rhythm for that matter. Some of us will listen to a band or performer and declare "I can't stand it! He's always just this annoying bit flat.", while others won't notice.

No doubt you're familiar with the quote attributed to Neil Young, where someone told him, as he was leaving the recording session for "Tears Are Not Enough", that he had sung a bit flat. Young replied "That's my sound, man".


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

mhammer said:


> Good practice should result in an a-ha moment or two every time. If it's boring, you're not doing it right.


If you have a shortcut to repetition to master the instrument I'll take it .


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

mhammer said:


> Knowing the fingering and playing the notes is not the same as having a good ear for pitch, or rhythm for that matter. Some of us will listen to a band or performer and declare "I can't stand it! He's always just this annoying bit flat.", while others won't notice.
> 
> No doubt you're familiar with the quote attributed to Neil Young, where someone told him, as he was leaving the recording session for "Tears Are Not Enough", that he had sung a bit flat. Young replied "That's my sound, man".


Knowing if and knowing of are two very separate things. I wouldn't know IF I was sharp or flat without a reference but I do know of this. I also know how to correct it.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Rollin Hand said:


> But the single most important lesson: I was deep into shredding as a teen, and I got pretty effing fast. I got to university, and the girls all went for the guy who could play "The Joker" by Steve Miller. Lesson learned.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

guitarman2 said:


> No I'm with you in the circumstances where old standards are thrown in. I think adding those old, over used standards (Think Sweet Home Alabama) is lazy.…


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Mark Brown said:


> Wait a second.... you're telling me a session flautist did not know how to tune a flute?
> This seems crazy to me. I believe you... but still, crazy.


What often happens, especially in smaller studios specializing in low budget productions, is a friend, associate, or just an apple polisher, gets the call. "Oh, we need a flute on this!", leads to "I'll call my friend from high school." Well intentioned and heart warming though it may be, it's rarely a time saver and is often based on saving costs.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Mooh said:


> What often happens, especially in smaller studios specializing in low budget productions, is a friend, associate, or just an apple polisher, gets the call. "Oh, we need a flute on this!", leads to "I'll call my friend from high school." Well intentioned and heart warming though it may be, it's rarely a time saver and is often based on saving costs.


Thanks! That clears that up. When you said you were there as a session man, I ran off and assumed everyone was.

An amateur flautist not knowing about tuning a flute, that I can get behind.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Doug Gifford said:


>


Clearly, the message is "You can't have a functional band with an Australian in it."


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

appreciate what each musician has to offer as there are always pleasant outcomes when playing together in the long term.

Extremely thankful for sound engineers that understand increased volume does not improve sound quality


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Always go pee before you go on stage
Always mark up music sheets in pencil
Always take a pencil and eraser to the gig (when using music sheets)
Never buy an amp you can't comfortably carry on your own
Crazy singers never change
Electricity at the gig is never guarenteed (I once showed up to the gig to find out someone had shorted out all the outlets)
Leard the other guitar players parts


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

1. Be prepared. (Bring all the equipment you will need - that includes cables, capos, picks, pens, set lists, power cords, amps, instruments)
2. Be professional. (A gig is a job you have been hired to do - act like it. Work with the venue staff, work with the sound tech. Shit happens - don't throw a tantrum when it does).
3. Show up on time.
4. Strike the stage immediately upon completion of the gig. Don't hold others up from going home so you can mingle with the crowd/your friends.
5. If you think you had a bad set/gig, don't say anything about it to anyone who was in attendance. Chances are they didn't notice and thought you were great. It's off putting to have a performer say how much they sucked tonight when you enjoyed the show.
6. Presentation matters. Sell your product. Show you care. Don't look like you just rolled in from an afternoon of sitting on your deck or a trip to Wal-Mart.
7. Your friends & family & coworkers don't want to go to your show.
8. Attitude and effort are just as important as ability. I've met a lot of kick-ass players that I absolutely would not want to be in a band with.
9. "Yes I'll be there!" means maybe. "Oh, yeah I'll try to come!" means I'm not coming even if you paid me to. Also "interested" or "going" to your event clicks have about a 5% conversion rate.


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## 2N1305 (Nov 2, 2009)

Ti-Ron said:


> Yeah, I learned that one the hard way! I was so sad when I got the message that the band leader deceided to let me go after a little over a month enjoying my time with the bands and learning (and enjoying) the songs!


sh*t
What did you do after that?


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

No one wants to hear you tune your guitar at 110dB.


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## paraedolia (Nov 26, 2008)




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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Mark Brown said:


> Thanks! That clears that up. When you said you were there as a session man, I ran off and assumed everyone was.
> 
> An amateur flautist not knowing about tuning a flute, that I can get behind.


Bizarre, ain't it? But so are pro string players who don't change or carry their own strings, something else I've done in the interest of expediency.

(I also don't get singers who don't own or carry their preferred live microphone/cord/stand, but that's rage inducing and I want to have a nice evening.)


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Mooh said:


> Bizarre, ain't it? But so are pro string players who don't change or carry their own strings, something else I've done in the interest of expediency.
> 
> (I also don't get singers who don't own or carry their preferred live microphone/cord/stand, but that's rage inducing and I want to have a nice evening.)


I have a strong inkling we would be very good friends


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## Pat James (5 mo ago)

mhammer said:


> All expertise requires practice. You don't get to be Guthrie Govan by sitting on your keister and watching Tik-Tok. The key aspect is what *kind* of practice. Even body-builders know you can't just do the same limited array of exercises. You have to vary it up. A good musician will find ways to engage themselves in that day's practice and get something more out of it than mere repetition. Good practice should result in an a-ha moment or two every time. If it's boring, you're not doing it right.


Did you read my post? I didn't say I wanted to be an expert? I play because I feel like it. Not interested in Tik Tok? What are you even going on about? I've been playing the guitar for 20 years and have never once "struggled" to "want" to play. Consider whatever you just said "in one ear and out the other".


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## Noodles (12 mo ago)

This thread could easily be turned into a business management book.

Such good stuff. 

Thanks all.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

I wish I had something profound to add. The only thing I do know for certain where the whole thing is concerned is that I have discovered my self criticism prevents me from enjoying something at a level that I would like.


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## Paul M (Mar 27, 2015)

Mark Brown said:


> I wish I had something profound to add. The only thing I do know for certain where the whole thing is concerned is that I have discovered my self criticism prevents me from enjoying something at a level that I would like.


I think most of us are quite self critical. I was never the best technically proficient musician in any band of which I was a part. Quite often I was obviously the worst musician in the group. At the same time I was always completely aware that I bring a somewhat unique skillset to any band. Even as the worst musician, I made every band better.

Not only, but also..... I have never not enjoyed music at whatever level I was functioning at. Trombone in grade 7 was just as enjoyable as a main stage opening slot for Kim Mitchell. Since I quit live music my skills have eroded, but the joy is still there.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Paul M said:


> I think most of us are quite self critical. I was never the best technically proficient musician in any band of which I was a part. Quite often I was obviously the worst musician in the group. At the same time I was always completely aware that I bring a somewhat unique skillset to any band. Even as the worst musician, I made every band better.
> 
> Not only, but also..... I have never not enjoyed music at whatever level I was functioning at. Trombone in grade 7 was just as enjoyable as a main stage opening slot for Kim Mitchell. Since I quit live music my skills have eroded, but the joy is still there.


Grade 7 getting my very first clarinet was and always will be my most memorable musical moment.

Not my mothers.


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## Paul M (Mar 27, 2015)

Mark Brown said:


> Grade 7 getting my very first clarinet was and always will be my most memorable musical moment.
> 
> Not my mothers.


There was more than one clarinet?


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## Derek_T (10 mo ago)

Mark Brown said:


> I wish I had something profound to add. The only thing I do know for certain where the whole thing is concerned is that I have discovered my self criticism prevents me from enjoying something at a level that I would like.


Dont worry you’re not alone . Same for me.
Even Julian Lage confessed in an interview with Josh Smith to having the same issue with harsh self criticism.
No matter how good you objectively are it does not seem to go away. ( I know it does not sound like it at all but it’s meant to be hopeful )


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Mark Brown said:


> I have a strong inkling we would be very good friends


I’m thinking of starting a new religion. Would you like in on the ground floor?


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

This week I re-learned some guitar solos I wrote twenty-years ago. Technically, I have never made it out of the intermediate zone into the advanced. 

But today my song-writing is miles ahead. Where I was once embarassed, I am now quite proud. Where I once was alone, now I have others seeking my help. Both with lyrics and with guitar. Even with singing. Why? Imagination. (I started the week with five separate collaborations. Two down, three to go. Not bad for a mediocre musician.) 

"I realized that I would never be Steve Vai, and decided to concentrate on writing the best songs I could." -- _a guy from Jimmy Eat World._


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Great thread! 

I'm going to post before reading it thoroughly... in no particular order... and I reserve the right to make additions:

Learn to sing. Even if you never do it in front of an audience, it is the most efficient way to communicate musical ideas.
Never practice faster than you can play it perfectly.
The guitarist is the most replaceable member of the band, so...
- Learn to sing
- Learn to play bass
- Own the PA, and a van
- Be a good human
Show up early.
Alcohol makes everything worse. 
Dress the part.
If a Cajun accordion player asks you to jam, say "Yes!" (Tomorrow morning - I'll let you know how it goes.)

Yes, help the sound guy, but ask how you can help. Coiling cables badly is not helpful. As a sound guy I'm pretty anal about my stuff - if you show up on time for the sound check and help load the van, that's all the help I need.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

bw66 said:


> Never practice faster than you can play it perfectly.


I would argue against this. Not because I think it is wrong, but because it only tells half the story. I play (write) a lot of parts that I cannot play even remotely perfectly, however by forcing myself to that speed I learn. Sometimes, without forcing yourself, you limit your potential. At least that is my two cents.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

2N1305 said:


> sh*t
> What did you do after that?


Nothing. I smiled, thanked them and wished them success.

They were nice guys and the scene is small, last thing I need is an ennemy. I will wait for the next project. I play music for fun and I generally don't get involved into drama or, at least, I try.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

When I was five or six I was given a harmonica. I remember being out on the street playing it and making all kinds of god-awful noise when suddenly the notes came together into a coherent piece of music. To this day, I still remember that going off in my head. I went running home to tell anyone that would listen that I made music. Shortly thereafter the harmonica mysteriously disappeared. So, what I learned from that is that you are one step up the ladder in life once you realize that no one gives a goddamn.. lol


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

One more I thought of: The lead vocals make or break a band. A mediocre band can sound great with a good singer. An absolutely amazing band can sound like amateur open mic night with a lousy singer.

Also, if you can't sing harmonies, don't.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Paul M said:


> There was more than one clarinet?


There have been many clarinets my friend. If you ever take the time to look closely behind all the guitars on my wall you will spy one lovingly placed, largely forgotten Bb clarinet hanging in his own wall hanger. Mind you, you have to look closely.

.....then there was the clarinet I left in Wasaga Beach because somehow there just wasn't enough room in the '95 dodge Neon for me, my ex girlfriend the cars owner and his buddy. Hitch hiking across the country has its price. Fortunately there are always more clarinets!

Can I change my answer, what I have learned from years of playing music is that there are always more clarinets. Now that is a lesson no one can do without. Also you make way more money busking with a clarinet than guitar. I dont know if it is the novelty or that people just feel bad for you, but they fill that hat.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Mark Brown said:


> I would argue against this. Not because I think it is wrong, but because it only tells half the story. I play (write) a lot of parts that I cannot play even remotely perfectly, however by forcing myself to that speed I learn. Sometimes, without forcing yourself, you limit your potential. At least that is my two cents.


Okay, "never" might be too strong a word, but the fastest way to better is usually slowly.

Another musical truth: The only way to get good is to be bad.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

bw66 said:


> Another musical truth: The only way to get good is to be bad.


Then I good sir am on my way to fantastic!


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Mooh said:


> For example, at a session I took a break while a flautist added their parts. When I came back and heard how sharp they were I had to say something. Apparently the player didn't know they could tune and the control room were clueless. It's a much more common problem than I would have dreamed. Having some negotiation skills helps and being kind when addressing the problem is essential. In this instance, I taught them how to tune, and luckily there were no bruised egos.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

No one has mentioned these two things:

play like the room is packed, even if it’s just the sound person
know the level you’re at (manage expectations). Be professional yes but also dont expect a light rig and crazy PA at the basement show . Conversely, know how to set up and tear down in 5m regardless of rig size so the big venues dont hate you.

Know the level also goes for work and personal relationships. Dont expect the dude you met at the show to help you move a week later etc.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I have learned that for me, it's best to keep business and music as separate and unconnected entities and hope for the best.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

This is one of my pet peeves specially with bands that are just starting. Please don't noodle on stage. I've seen 'newish' bands, that go on stage and then they start playing around with their guitars either before the set begins or in between songs. It is really annoying. Try to be more professional, after all you are getting paid to perform.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Pat James said:


> Did you read my post? I didn't say I wanted to be an expert? I play because I feel like it. Not interested in Tik Tok? What are you even going on about? I've been playing the guitar for 20 years and have never once "struggled" to "want" to play. Consider whatever you just said "in one ear and out the other".


Then I should have substituted the term "better at". I doubt anyone wants to simply spin their wheels (although there is something to be said for hanging onto, rather than losing, any skill one has). People may not aspire to lofty peaks, but we all do want to be at least a tiny bit better this week than we were last week. That is a big part of what makes us"want" to play. Self-assessed competence/success with a desired goal is motivating, and increases persistence, while for many people, failure is demotivating.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

KapnKrunch said:


> This week I re-learned some guitar solos I wrote twenty-years ago. Technically, I have never made it out of the intermediate zone into the advanced.
> 
> But today my song-writing is miles ahead. Where I was once embarassed, I am now quite proud. Where I once was alone, now I have others seeking my help. Both with lyrics and with guitar. Even with singing. Why? Imagination. (I started the week with five separate collaborations. Two down, three to go. Not bad for a mediocre musician.)
> 
> "I realized that I would never be Steve Vai, and decided to concentrate on writing the best songs I could." -- _a guy from Jimmy Eat World._


That's why I said to play, and stay true, to your own strengths. Of course, it can take some time before a person realizes just _what_ those strengths are.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

The band's inside jokes don't always go over well with the audience.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Mooh said:


> The band's inside jokes don't always go over well with the audience.


Further to this: Pick ONE PERSON in the band that's going to speak to the crowd through the mic. This should usually be the lead singer. All other band members shouldn't be talking. There shouldn't be conversations between band members through the mics.
In addition: Crowd interaction should consist of:
-"HOW'S EVERYONE DOING TONIGHT?!"
-"YOU FEELING GOOD?!"
-"THANK YOU!"
-"This next song is called *___*!"
That's basically it. Unless you're pulling a big crowd of fans specifically there to see YOU, then no one wants to hear the story of what this next song is about or your bassist's comedy routine. The ONLY time any crowd interaction should be any longer is to cover dead air while the band has to do something to get ready to play the next song.

AAAAAAND: You should not have to retune your guitars between every song. If you're unable to play more than one song without having to retune your guitar then there is something wrong with your guitar and you need to get that rectified. There's exceptions of course but generally you should be able to tie 2 or 3 or more songs together without having to stop.

Finally: Dead air is deadly. I remember how I learned this lesson. Back in my first band (originals) we did shows and thought we were awesome. One gig we set up a video camera and recorded the whole thing. We learned a LOT when we watched it later. I remember realizing how excruciating it was with how much gap there was between songs. You don't even realize it on stage but having more than 20 seconds from the time one song ends to the start of the next song kills the entire momentum of your show. So dinking around up there for 1-2 minutes while you take a drink, tune your guitar, make a few jokes in the mic - it's fucking painful to watch from the crowd. We immediately set about practicing song transitions in rehearsal. Pick songs that pair well together so you can end one and immediately go "1 2 3 4!" and launch into the next one.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> we set up a video camera and recorded the whole thing. We learned a LOT when we watched it later. I


Friggin ditto!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> Further to this: Pick ONE PERSON in the band that's going to speak to the crowd through the mic. This should usually be the lead singer. All other band members shouldn't be talking. There shouldn't be conversations between band members through the mics.
> In addition: Crowd interaction should consist of:
> -"HOW'S EVERYONE DOING TONIGHT?!"
> -"YOU FEELING GOOD?!"
> ...



I think you make good points.

But, that whole canned mantra:

-"HOW'S EVERYONE DOING TONIGHT?!"
-"YOU FEELING GOOD?!"
-"THANK YOU!"
-"This next song is called *___*!"

comes off as pretty disingenuous / phony.

It kind of makes me smirk a bit, sort of like "Are you ready to rock?!?!?!"


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Tune as often as you need to but it shouldnt affect the show. Worked for me lol.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Milkman said:


> I think you make good points.
> 
> But, that whole canned mantra:
> 
> ...


True, but what else needs to be said? Singer needs to pump up the crowd. Space between songs shouldn't require much more than this. Unless it's singer/songwriter acoustic night.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> True, but what else needs to be said? Singer needs to pump up the crowd. Space between songs shouldn't require much more than this. Unless it's singer/songwriter acoustic night.


If you adhere to the gig = party, yes, the singer needs to pump up the crowd.

That doesn't feel right for many bands.

What else needs to be said really depends on the band and their audience, but that's just my opinion.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Budda said:


> Tune as often as you need to but it shouldnt affect the show. Worked for me lol.


Yes, as long as you tune silently.

If you're fronting the show, tuning stability is that much more important.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

KapnKrunch said:


> Good for you! I wish I could cop that attitude.
> 
> It's bad enough for me that I hate the song more & more, but when changing the repertoire, and those two never got axed.. well, time to split (_Dead or Alive_ by Bon Jovi & _Can't You See_ by Marshall Tucker)
> 
> ...


i ended up as the sound guy as a sort of penance after years of playing either by myself or with others and being ... less than gracious let's say ... with those on the board

turns out i sounded bad in the monitors because i sounded bad and years of sound guys were accurately representing back to me what i was providing damn them 

if i could go back to being 20 with one lesson learned from later years that might be it. i made my own life and the lives of others more difficult and i squandered some great opportunities by blaming my own shitty playing on others' inability to polish it up

thus concludes confession ... forgive us our sins as we forgive the sins of others 

no outdoor show on the yard this fall i ran out of fuel. i did start a community music series once a month beginning in october that will rotate between events called Quiet, Loud, and Choral. We had the first Quiet a couple weeks ago including a couple of local men in their 90s who play harmonica together and a 45 year old metalhead who had never played an acoustic guitar before but sounded really great. The first Loud will be later this month and appropriate for the season the first Choral will be mid-December. Then I guess we'll see if it's got legs under it and up for another round. 

j


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> Unless it's singer/songwriter acoustic night.


Yup. The smaller the venue the better I enjoy the show. I really like the stories.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

It's better to know 35 songs really well than 200 songs kinda sorta.
Sometimes it's better to know 5 songs really well than 200 songs kinda sorta


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> -"HOW'S EVERYONE DOING TONIGHT?!"


I played briefly with a lead singer that said "How y'all doing tonight" after almost every song. It would have done us good if someone other than the lead singer fronted the show.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I've never enjoyed being a front man, it's not my style or personality, so I'm happy that someone else gets the band leader/front man job. That said, if I'm directed to speak, I'm cool to introduce something/someone. No chatter though.

The Neil Young tribute I was in was fronted by a singer/guitarist who rarely spoke to the audience. Typically, "Hi, we're The Unknown Legends, here's Unknown Legend." or "You might know this one." then kick off Heart Of Gold, sort of thing. Thanks were reserved for the end of the set or if the audience was particularly enthused, but just one or two words. His relaxed demeanour made up for any lack of speech. A smile and a nod go a long way. Sometimes...well, almost always...less is more.


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

If you keep being told to turn down because you’re too loud, it might not be because you’re too loud.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

_Azrael said:


> If you keep being told to turn down because you’re too loud, it might not be because you’re too loud.


Oh you can bet. Its because I'm too loud.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Protect your hearing.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

_Azrael said:


> If you keep being told to turn down because you’re too loud, it might not be because you’re too loud.


No, if you're told to turn down, it's because you're too loud. If the sound man turns you down in the FOH mix, _that's _probably for other reasons.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

greco said:


> Protect your hearing.



What was that?

Actually, I'm 100% behind this, but I suggest a root cause analysis to really solve the problem.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Doug Gifford said:


> It's better to know 35 songs really well than 200 songs kinda sorta.


A bassist that I know was in a band that played a weekly 'live karaoke' at their local bar.
Their set list was 300+ for singers to choose from. 😲


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

It also depends on which songs. If the 35 are all 2:00 long, a person can run out of material real quick. If at least half of them can be played with no complaint or boredom for 5-6 minutes apiece, that's a lot more material.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Another important consideration might be the complexity and technical difficulty of the songs.

Mastering Foreplay and Long time on the keys took a lot more work for me than say, Let it Be or something by Tom Petty.

And, please don't rush to defend those artists, because I love them. Complexity doesn't necessarily make it a better song.

It does however make it more difficult to remember and to keep tight in an ensemble.


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

Milkman said:


> No, if you're told to turn down, it's because you're too loud. If the sound man turns you down in the FOH mix, _that's _probably for other reasons.


Nah. Some people just sound bad and get told to turn down before sound check begins.


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## bgreenhouse (Jan 4, 2014)

JBFairthorne said:


> NOBODY cares about my mistakes more than I do. Hell, most of the time they don’t even notice.


On this - never apologize (to the audience) for a mistake. Chances are no one noticed it anyway.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

After having taught guitar lessons for a few years both in local stores and at Mohawk College, there came a point where any time I played in this city, there would be at least a half dozen of my students as well as a few other local guitar guys in the audience.

I'm sure others here will have had similar experiences.

One little trick / attempt at humour I used to trot out, was to inform the audience that I was aware there were lots of talented players in the audience and that I would be carefully playing a few wrong notes in the set so, keep an ear out and let me know if you spot them.

(I may have stolen that one from Lester Polfus)


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

mhammer said:


> It also depends on which songs. If the 35 are all 2:00 long, a person can run out of material real quick. If at least half of them can be played with no complaint or boredom for 5-6 minutes apiece, that's a lot more material.


Valid point.

We used to joke that Neil Young’s Like A Hurricane made a good set. (Incidentally not in the NY tribute band but in another cover band called Bag Of Hammers.) It had tempo changes, dynamics galore, an epic solo, prolonged intro, and I think I used three distortion pedals plus amp gain and an Ebow. In truth, it probably only ran about ten minutes, but was likely much too long for most audiences, and too publicly self indulgent for the band. Sometimes when the band is having fun it’s great and infectious, other times it’s a snore-fest.


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

I can tell when a guitar player fudges because they scowl at the drummer then wink at the bass player. Every time😄


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Jam band I was in around 1980 the drummer who was my best friend had an issue with the bass player about getting back to one. So the drummer gets up, walks through his rented kit, toms and cymbals rollin on the ground, goes over and lays a beatin on the bass player. I'm laughin my ass off and yellin at the bass player "hit him back ya fuckin panzy" .. lol


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## whyarecanadiangirlshot (2 mo ago)




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