# Too Bloody Complex - Song Writing



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Me again folks.

When writing music, do you ever find that you want things to be symphonically complex and struggle to get to that when most of the things you hear on a daily basis are all of 4 chords, a key change in some bridge somewhere, back to 3 or 4 chords some pentatonic soloing and voila, Paranoid is written and Ozzy and crew are millionaires.

I find that in my head, it is all there but either I lack the talent, knowledge or.... fortitude? to make it happen. 

I suppose ultimately the question is, when are you happy with something you have done? What are your goals when you set out?


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

I'm happy when it makes me smile. Seriously: I just know it's good once it's good. Then polish. Most don't make it to good and don't get finished or, often, even begun.

Dare to be simple.

This, for example, is fluff. But I think it succeeds at being fluff and it's fun to play.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

You can make things symphonically complex as you want - but when you distill it, you're still just going to have a handful of chords and a rhythm or eight.

What have you written so far? What dont you like about it? What do you like about it? Where do you want to improve? Great! Now write more.

I'm happy with what I've done when I go "yep" and never return to it. Goals when I set out? Usually none - if inspiration strikes, I hit record and go.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Kris Kristofferson (and many others) conveyed a lot of storys with just 3 chords. More complex does not mean better. If it's simple and it fits the song, so be it.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Kris Kristofferson (and many others) conveyed a lot of storys with just 3 chords. More complex does not mean better. If it's simple and it fits the song, so be it.


This is my problem mostly. I really just want to write songs that I can sing along to... but I cannot sing, so there is that problem to get over. Some of the best shit I ever write is me and my acoustic sitting in front of a mic belting out something straight out of the ether... but then I go back and listen to it and cannot sing and get mad and do it all over again... but I still can't sing LOL



Budda said:


> What have you written so far? What dont you like about it? What do you like about it? Where do you want to improve? Great! Now write more.


Now write more, you might be on to something. I think my problem is that I compare what I am doing to the things I like and well, what I am not is 4 or 5 professional musicians... I am one fat man with a guitar. I should be happy with the things I am doing, and I am... but I never feel like they are as great as they could be.



Doug Gifford said:


> Dare to be simple.
> 
> This, for example, is fluff. But I think it succeeds at being fluff and it's fun to play.


You could be on to something, but right this minute, I think I realized my problem is that I don't have and windows in this room


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

There’s some old saying about 3 chords and the truth which is fine as far as it goes but with my songs I’m usually aiming for 4 chords and a pack of lies.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Get some software that allows for easy arranging. Studio One has the Arranger Track, which lets you use your song tracks as more like a spreadsheet. You set the blocks on the top (arranger track). Intro, verse, bridge, lead, chorus etc. Then it's easy (once you learn how) to double parts, delete, move sections etc. The software will help by putting in crossfades. It's not going to be 100% flawless so it's more for creative writting than the finished tracks, but a good editor will be able to fit the parts together pretty much seamlessly for the most part. There are other programs that are based on this system.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

In case I wasn't 100% clear the arranger track automatically cuts up all the tracks into the sections you in which you specify the range. So when you want to double the verse, it will cut the start and end of the verse, then copy all the track sections below,


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Brunz said:


> ...I find that in my head, it is all there but either I lack the talent, knowledge or.... fortitude? to make it happen...


I think everyone gets like that once in a while, especially when the complexities n your head just can't make it out to your fingers. If you've got the tune in your head, IMO you're more than halfway there.

What I do if I just can't translate it to tone is I work it out one bar at a time - and if you have any, use your music buds to help too. Sometimes one bar can take an hour to get right. Once a sizable segment is recorded or built, then I sleep on it and see how I like it in the morning. The difficult and time consuming part for me is post production.

I know I've got it right when I catch myself humming my own tune in the shower.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

It just sounds like splicing tracks, am I missing something? What gets automated?
Suppose it does not matter because I'm downloading it now. I dont like what I am using now.... it blows.

I have a shit ton of experience with old fruity loops production seeing as I use to.... get the opposite of low, and write a LOT of beats so cutting up tracks and the like is something I am familiar with.

Really I just need a damn singer, or possibly to go deaf so my singing sounds good =)


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

is the stuff you listen to complex? rheostatics? '70s prog? symphonic and chamber music arrangements? jazz?
and you're trying to reach that level?

or is the stuff you listen to simple and you're trying to avoid those cliches?

i think the solution is different depending on whether you're feeling pulled toward something or pushed away from its opposite

and ... do you start with a songwriting core and then struggle to expand it or do you blast out way too much stuff and the struggle to reduce to something that makes sense?

j


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> ... do you start with a songwriting core and then struggle to expand it or do you blast out way too much stuff and the struggle to reduce to something that makes sense?


I write complex rhythms and melodies and struggle to moosh them into concise thoughts.

I blame my musical interests.... there was a lot of late night CBC radio 3 back when that was a thing  Way too much prog rock, God Speed You Black Emperor and Tim Reynolds. Then when I can't make that, I get angry. I have always been a self critical perfectionist, which is why I struggle with "good enough".

I must have laid down about 20 different melodies/rhythms today, threw in some lead work and DELETED IT ALL lol 

Oh well, I'll always have jamming.

I have this hope, maybe a dream that if I can complete one thing then all the other things will come flowing along.

Also, experimental elecrronic music has rotted my brain 

Mostly I think I'm not good enough to make the music in my head.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Brunz said:


> Me again folks.
> 
> When writing music, do you ever find that you want things to be symphonically complex and struggle to get to that when most of the things you hear on a daily basis are all of 4 chords, a key change in some bridge somewhere, back to 3 or 4 chords some pentatonic soloing and voila, Paranoid is written and Ozzy and crew are millionaires.
> 
> ...


It varies considerably. Sometimes there's a complete thing in my head before I start, sometimes not, but in both cases the end result will be at least a little different. Usually I start with an idea and flesh out lyrics and chord structure as I go, modifying melody to suit, but sometimes the lyrics or melody will be pre-established. In recent years I've taken a dislike to writing lyrics (weird, since I used to write poetry a lot) and really prefer to write instrumental, traditional sounding, melodies.

I'm never completely happy with something. It's kind of like mundane fantasy, rather than post-coital euphoria. Over time I may go back and re-record something to help finish it off but that can be like break-up sex, a little unsatisfying.

My only goal at the outset is to write something, anything. I refuse to write on demand, but my brain is afloat with ideas plus I write down ideas for future use.

There's a lot you can do with a few open chords on the guitar. Here are two examples, about 25 years apart, one with a full band and major practice and arranging (that's not my voice...we had a much better singer...pretty sure I've posted this before), the other one a rough solo recording the day it was written. I would arrange and play them a little differently today.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

Well every morning at the mine you can see him arrive, he stood 6’6 and weighed 245..

Kind of broad at the shoulders and narrow at the hips..

And everyone knew you didn’t give no lip to Big John.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Brunz said:


> but I still can't sing


That never stopped Springsteen...lol.

Or a plethora of other auto-tuned artists.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> That never stopped Springsteen...lol.
> 
> Or a plethora of other auto-tuned artists.


Or Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan. Like Springsteen, great songwriters, but I struggle to listen for long.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

ITS HAPPENING!!
Woke up this morning and all the pieces started to fit... I'll post something up later. Apparently the key to writing is to air your frustrations


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

Brunz said:


> ITS HAPPENING!!
> Woke up this morning and all the pieces started to fit... I'll post something up later. Apparently the key to writing is to air your frustrations


A lot can happen when you're sleeping or even just lying down for a nap. When you get stuck, lying down away from your guitar and just letting your imagination go can be a good thing.

"So you see, imagination needs moodling - long, inefficient, happy idling, dawdling and puttering." _Brenda Ueland_

Song titles and chord progressions cannot be copyrighted (so I'm told) which suggests that they are the common-property building blocks of songs. Feel free to steal cliché chord progressions if you feel like it. They're clichés for a reason. Then make them your own.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Brunz said:


> always have jamming


jamming is kind of the opposite of the music you describe 

i think for a lot of people there's a bunch of frustration that comes from wishing to sound like tosin abassi with a process that's more like jj cale / grateful dead / phish 

but it's not that way. you'll never get a super tight very complex orchestrated arrangement out of a stoner jam process. each of them is cool in their own way but they are different ways

the big thing is the ability to notate somehow. tab or score or your own invented language doesn't matter. i was talking the other day to ben reimer who is the drummer on nicole lizee's composition for electronics and kit called 'katana of choice' . every hit and every sample trigger is scored and it's a detailed painstaking deep dive process that every participant needs to be fully immersed in for the thing to work

j


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

It comes down to practice. Once you get better at writing what you want to write, it will become easier.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> jamming is kind of the opposite of the music you describe


Isn't that the truth. What I have come to realize in the last 36 hours is that I have lots of groove, a bunch of soul and a hole where my precision use to be 

I am not a composer and frankly that is what I want to aspire to so I suppose it is just down to getting a lot better at the concepts I am trying to project and a lot less time noodling around. Insert serious face here. 

One thing I would like to do is get something pumped out, anything really, and have someone who is impartial (yous guys) lie to me and tell me they like it, so I have have faith in my false hope and become resolved to make more lol That or some honest criticism, I hear that helps too


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Could always hire a producer.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Budda said:


> Could always hire a producer.


oh sweet merciful hell, I am not in that league at all


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Brunz said:


> oh sweet merciful hell, I am not in that league at all


That's what they do. They work with you on the material you have to shape it into what you want. I didn't mean do it today haha.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

While getting in acoustic delta blues, I tried two write two pieces on my own, one quite mainstream Blues in E and another one in A I had stuffed with plenty of bends, slides, pull offs and hammer ons and it turned out to be too heavy, sounding more jazz study than delta blues.
It was fun to write, putting all those ornaments in there, and rewarding to use all my newly acquired technical skills to "perform", but it was clearly not deemed to be a success : too complex and not that much palatable for the usual crowd, too basic or scholar for the connoisseurs I guess. But my freinds and I appreciated my effort...

I got a glance toward the Berkeley school and the main rule seems to write a short motive to knit around to be successful : We are clearly not in the orchestral music there.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Brunz said:


> someone who is impartial (yous guys)


Hahahahahaha ... impartial ... WTF ... hahahahaha 

Ever listen to Mary Halvorsen? That stuff is great ... according to me ... and she makes her living at it somehow or other so evidently there are others who agree. Ready set go on the 'what kind of unlistenable nonsense is that' from the rest of the crowd and living where I do I have yet to meet another fan of hers in person. 

If you make it and get it into ears there will be ears who think it's great 

j


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

You could always write about the Boston Brunz.

Jamming is almost always a part of my compositional style, whether it’s simply running through variations for a phrase or recording several solos from which to choose the ideal one; and if I add chords later it’s usually because I’ve been jamming along and adding passing/transitional chords.

Often it helps to use an alternate instrument.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

mawmow said:


> While getting in acoustic delta blues, I tried two write two pieces on my own, one quite mainstream Blues in E and another one in A I had stuffed with plenty of bends, slides, pull offs and hammer ons and it turned out to be too heavy, sounding more jazz study than delta blues.


When I think of bends, slides, pull offs and hammer on I think more blues than I do jazz.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

guitarman2 said:


> When I think of bends, slides, pull offs and hammer on I think more blues than I do jazz.


That was the idea for sure, but at the end of the day, it sounded quite in between...


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

player99 said:


> In case I wasn't 100% clear the arranger track automatically cuts up all the tracks into the sections you in which you specify the range. So when you want to double the verse, it will cut the start and end of the verse, then copy all the track sections below,


This is my method, but basically just doing the same thing in GarageBand. I use Logic for when I actually record stuff, but I love GarageBand as a tool for mapping my stuff out. I don't consider myself some amazing writer, but I do think I am really good at arranging and it's such a key thing.


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