# Is anyone following the FTX fiasco?



## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

I'm not an expert by any stretch....just someone following the story. 

Thoughts?


----------



## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

I’m not expert either, but I’ve been following it as I have a buddy who is a crypto nut and I love to debate him.

Funny how crypto was supposed to take the financial control back to the people, free of government control and regulations…which is exactly what everyone is screaming for now.

Money, even pretend internet money does funny things to people.


----------



## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Parabola said:


> I’m not expert either, but I’ve been following it as I have a buddy who is a crypto nut and I love to debate him.
> 
> Funny how crypto was supposed to take the financial control back to the people, free of government control and regulations…which is exactly what everyone is screaming for now.
> 
> Money, even pretend internet money does funny things to people.


Yeah, I've been advised by people who actually know what they're doing to stay far away from crypto. Maybe they actually do know what they're talking about.


----------



## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

My buddy has been trying to convince me to invest since probably 2015 (?) I took a deep look, and tried to find a solid understanding of the market, in brief here’s what I was able to find and some of my opinions. I might be inviting a argument here, but here it is…

1) The technology is interesting, but is certainly not going to save the world as some belei.

2) There is almost no actual financial analysis that publicly available, that’s not produced by companies or influencers that are part of the crypto world.

3) 99.9% of investment advice are crypto bros on social media talking shit. They don strike me as educated investors, and twitter should not be your financial advisor.

4) I didn’t see lack of regulation as a plus, for reasons just like FTX.

5) Governments don’t seem to have any issues with stopping or seizure of crypto assets from bad guys, so the whole “your money is safe from the government “ argument is BS.

6) Mining operations seem like a total waste of resources and energy, unless you’re one of these giants in the mining world that’s running data centres 24/7.

7) Currencies are tied to state sovereignty, and there’s no way a G20 country will allow a currency it does not control become the standard inside its borders. They may very well make their own crypto, but they are not going to let open source, unregulated crypto lead that space.

8) Nobody is spending crypto in real life, everyone holds it. Nobody’s going to give a store $25 worth of crypto that might be worth $1000 in a month. It has no utility.

The biggest turn off for me was the unbridled greed, and the increase investor base of people who didn’t seem to know anything about money. That alone smelled like trouble to me. My buddies big thing is “see, look at all the banks and investment firms that are in it!”…of..course they are, they love to make money, and it’s practically no risk for them to explore the market in the way they were doing it.

Will it morph into something down the road? No idea? My money is essentially virtual right now anyways, numbers go in and out of my account, moved around virtually, I only see cash when I hit an ATM on occasion. Crypto has no practical use for me in day to day life.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Crypto is great..... as long as you enjoy speculation. Speculation can make you very rich or very poor and it can do both really quickly.

This really shouldn't surprise anyone, even though somehow it does. Who would have thought a completely speculative form of currency with no backing or regulation could ever possibly go wrong. Crazy.


----------



## crann (May 10, 2014)

Full disclosure: I love crypto

This is a classic case of a poorly run, over-leveraged company that was pulling a fast one on investors. The fact that they were based in the Bahamas and deal in crypto doesn't help matters at all. Those two pieces of information also allowed them to have an unscrupulous relationship between their exchange and a trading firm which would never be allowed on a traditional equity market. The absolute worst.

This isn't the first, or last of such events in the crypto world:

Mt Gox was a prominent exchange that went under in 2014 due to theft, mismanagement and a classic bank run https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mt._Gox
For some Canadian and conspiracy content, there's Quadriga, an exchange that went under when the founder died overseas (some believe it was a faked death), who was the only person who knew the passwords for several "wallets" containing access to all their clients funds. Turns out they probably never turned their client's cash into crypto and the assets are long gone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadriga_Fintech_Solutions

There's a saying in crypto world: "Not your keys, not your coins", meaning if you have your assets on an exchange and not in a personal wallet, they're not really your assets at all.


----------



## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

But PeePee said Bitcoin is the future and that the BoC is completely out of touch.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Mark Brown said:


> Crypto is great..... as long as you enjoy speculation. Speculation can make you very rich or very poor and it can do both really quickly.
> 
> This really shouldn't surprise anyone, even though somehow it does. Who would have thought a completely speculative form of currency with no backing or regulation could ever possibly go wrong. Crazy.


To be fair, it's crash is pretty directly tied to government interventions whether direct or indirectly.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Parabola said:


> I’m not expert either, but I’ve been following it as I have a buddy who is a crypto nut and I love to debate him.
> 
> Funny how crypto was supposed to take the financial control back to the people, free of government control and regulations…which is exactly what everyone is screaming for now.
> 
> Money, even pretend internet money does funny things to people.


I haven't heard anyone actually involved in crypto asking for government control or regulation. I'm hearing that from people who invested thinking it was guaranteed money, and of course, the government themselves.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

butterknucket said:


> I'm not an expert by any stretch....just someone following the story.
> 
> Thoughts?


One of my favourite things to watch since GameStop. Dude ran a scam and pulled one over on the people to whom this sort of thing isn't supposed to be able to happen.


----------



## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

Okay Player said:


> I haven't heard anyone actually involved in crypto asking for government control or regulation. I'm hearing that from people who invested thinking it was guaranteed money, and of course, the government themselves.


I’ve been reading a lot of comments in social media from people who are screwed now and are upset there was no regulation in place to protect against his happening, as I mentioned, the common investor base doesn’t seem to have a firm understanding of the space.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Parabola said:


> I’ve been reading a lot of comments in social media from people who are screwed now and are upset there was no regulation in place to protect against his happening, as I mentioned, the common investor base doesn’t seem to have a firm understanding of the space.


As I said, people who invested thinking it was guaranteed money. Most people consider the crypto base to be those who actually understand how it works, not those looking to get rich quick.


----------



## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Yesterday heard an pm grilling the conservative govt for promoting crypto saying if someone invested $10K when the conservatives were advising Canadians to invest in it, today that $10K would be only $3K.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

player99 said:


> Yesterday heard an pm grilling the conservative govt for promoting crypto saying if someone invested $10K when the conservatives were advising Canadians to invest in it, today that $10K would be only $3K.


Sounds a lot like Shopify stock.


----------



## keto (May 23, 2006)

Okay Player said:


> I haven't heard anyone actually involved in crypto asking for government control or regulation. I'm hearing that from people who invested thinking it was guaranteed money, and of course, the government themselves.


]
Then you haven't been paying attention to the industry. Sam BF was a big lobbyist in DC, even. Many other industry insiders have been begging Washington for regulation, for years.
Here's a random google on the subject. Sam Bankman-Fried was the face of crypto in D.C. What would FTX’s acquisition mean for regulation?


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

main rules for investments of any sort:

do your own research........ then do some more.
invest only what you can afford to lose.
if it can go up in value , then it can go down.

just like anything else , (stocks / bonds /etc) the first ones in make the big bux , the rest of the pack gets the scraps.
the first ones in always have the inside track and know when to bail to keep their profits.... you don't.

sorta like going to the casino and planning to win big cause you're feeling "lucky" tonight.
then going home broke till the next paycheque


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

keto said:


> ]
> Then you haven't been paying attention to the industry. Sam BF was a big lobbyist in DC, even. Many other industry insiders have been begging Washington for regulation, for years.
> Here's a random google on the subject. Sam Bankman-Fried was the face of crypto in D.C. What would FTX’s acquisition mean for regulation?


The investment industry? I have, but crypto is supposed to live outside of it and it very clearly plays by different rules that they don't understand which is why every few years something like this happens. Ie, the Ontario teachers union was heavily invested in FTX. Their investors are supposed to be the kind of people who do their due diligence and this would never happen to. Now they look like a horse's ass and need to blame someone that isn't themselves.

@Parabola summed it up perfectly in one of his posts when he said that a government would never let crypto get a firm grip if they don't control it.


----------



## Craig Beck (2 mo ago)

Interesting, I am still trying to decide on crypto.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Craig Beck said:


> Interesting, I am still trying to decide on crypto.


My Klon is doing drastically better than my RESP, RRSP, or any form of crypto.


----------



## bbigsby (Mar 23, 2009)

My negative take on Crypto is this:

if you have a 59 Les Paul in your basement and through word of mouth thugs find out. They steal it at you have some hope for recovery via insurance or traceable via sn#.

if you are at a party bragging about millions you made in BITCOINS, thugs overhear, they go to your house and point a gun to your head, or worse yet a family member, and demand you transfer it all over to another BITCOIN wallet. They then Eliminate all witnesses and flee the country. Good luck getting justice.

Exclaimer to thugs: I have no Bitcoin and own a 98 Ibanez artcore hollobody and a Mexican Strat.


----------



## Craig Beck (2 mo ago)

bbigsby said:


> My negative take on Crypto is this:
> 
> if you have a 59 Les Paul in your basement and through word of mouth thugs find out. They steal it at you have some hope for recovery via insurance or traceable via sn#.
> 
> ...


Good point.


----------



## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Parabola said:


> I’ve been reading a lot of comments in social media from people who are screwed now and are upset there was no regulation in place to protect against his happening, as I mentioned, the common investor base doesn’t seem to have a firm understanding of the space.


"I didn't think lions would eat _MY_ face!"


----------



## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

This guy does incredibly accurate videos. His channel is Joe Blogs.


----------



## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




----------



## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

This reminds me of all the people who lost money on NFTs. Also the whole Gibson Rally fiasco where everyone lost their money.


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

ponzi scheme to launder taxpayer money sent to ukraine to be funnelled back to the dems as donations from SBF, second largest donator after george soros?


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> This reminds me of all the people who lost money on NFTs. Also the whole Gibson Rally fiasco where everyone lost their money.


Anytime there's the potential for quick and substantial gains in wealth, there will be balance.

I don't study statistical analysis or calculate betting odds, but I would think your chances of becoming wealthy on crypto are not much better than your chances of coming out ahead at a casino.

I could be wrong, but for every winner, there are many losers.


----------



## crann (May 10, 2014)

bbigsby said:


> if you are at a party bragging about millions you made in BITCOINS, thugs overhear, they go to your house and point a gun to your head, or worse yet a family member, and demand you transfer it all over to another BITCOIN wallet. They then Eliminate all witnesses and flee the country. Good luck getting justice.


I'm not sure this scenario is comparable and it also lacks some understanding of crypto. 

1. Why do you die when it's crypto but live when it's your guitar? Seems like an odd comparison 
2. Bitcoin, and most crypto have perfect fidelity, which means every time it moves, it's tracked with 100% accuracy. That doesn't mean you know who or where it's going, but you can infinitely track it. This property has been used to find and prosecute many crypto scammers/thieves








Canadian Police Arrest Teen for Allegedly Stealing $36M in Crypto


It is the biggest cryptocurrency theft ever reported in Canada, police said.




www.coindesk.com








__





Loading…






www.cbc.ca




3. It's far easier to steal cash than it is to steal crypto, especially considering how easy it is to offload cash

Not trying to advocate crypto at all, just addressing the claims in bbigsby's post


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

bbigsby said:


> My negative take on Crypto is this:
> 
> if you have a 59 Les Paul in your basement and through word of mouth thugs find out. They steal it at you have some hope for recovery via insurance or traceable via sn#.
> 
> ...


That seems like 2 slightly different scenarios.


----------



## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Okay Player said:


> My Klon is doing drastically better than my RESP, RRSP, or any form of crypto.


I have a few pedals and other things I was shocked to see the current value of. 

Of course, things are only worth a lot if someone is willing to pay that much for them.


----------



## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

One thing I forgot to mention, was that CRA in 2014 positioned itself and tax laws to take full advantage of taxing it. To date the government doesn’t have a firm understanding of how crypto works in terms of financial institutions, services or legality, but they know exactly how to tax you for owning or using it!





__





Guide for cryptocurrency users and tax professionals - Canada.ca


Cryptocurrency is a relatively new innovation that requires guidelines on taxation so that Canadians are aware of how to meet their tax obligations.




www.canada.ca





So in reading this, if you own, use or barter with it, you can be taxed in a variety of ways, and the value of your crypto or transactions can be evaluated In several ways for the purposes of taxation.

Using FTX as an example of the risk from a tax perspective (I’m not a lawyer, financial advisor or anything) had I filed my 2021 tax return and paid taxes on $ X value of crypto, that’s now gone or lost much of its value, I’m screwed twice, because not only have I absorbed the market loss, but paid CRA probably crazy taxes on the value. You can write the loss off the next year, but yikes!


----------



## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

butterknucket said:


> I have a few pedals and other things I was shocked to see the current value of.
> 
> Of course, things are only worth a lot if someone is willing to pay that much for them.


This goes back to the idea of investing in things people buy or use, including services.

It’s like when you talk to preppers that are stocking up on silver and gold for,the zombie apocalypse. Precious metals will not be worth a thing when the zombies come, beef jerky, Ammo and paper porn will be the most valuable things you can possibly own!


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Parabola said:


> One thing I forgot to mention, was that CRA in 2014 positioned itself and tax laws to take full advantage of taxing it. To date the government doesn’t have a firm understanding of how crypto works in terms of financial institutions, services or legality, but they know exactly how to tax you for owning or using it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Current government is planning to do that on all assets.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Parabola said:


> This goes back to the idea of investing in things people buy or use, including services.
> 
> It’s like when you talk to preppers that are stocking up on silver and gold for,the zombie apocalypse. Precious metals will not be worth a thing when the zombies come, beef jerky, Ammo and paper porn will be the most valuable things you can possibly own!


Preppers love precious metals. Silver specifically. "It's always been currency!!!!"


----------



## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Okay Player said:


> ... the Ontario teachers union was heavily invested in FTX.


I know nothing about cryptocurrencies, but I do follow the Teachers Pension Plan a bit as it figures heavily in my future finances. The pension plan had less than half a percent of it's portfolio in crypto, so even if they lose it all, it really doesn't factor in to their overall performance in a significant way. They have certainly lost more, by times, in some of their more conventional investments. You win some, you lose some.


----------



## Noodles (12 mo ago)

bbigsby said:


> My negative take on Crypto is this:
> 
> if you have a 59 Les Paul in your basement and through word of mouth thugs find out. They steal it at you have some hope for recovery via insurance or traceable via sn#.
> 
> ...


Not directly on point, but:


----------



## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

bw66 said:


> I know nothing about cryptocurrencies, but I do follow the Teachers Pension Plan a bit as it figures heavily in my future finances. The pension plan had less than half a percent of it's portfolio in crypto, so even if they lose it all, it really doesn't factor in to their overall performance in a significant way. They have certainly lost more, by times, in some of their more conventional investments. You win some, you lose some.


No one's saying they've blown all their money but you can't really just shrug away lighting $130M on fire like it's no big deal.


----------



## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Okay Player said:


> No one's saying they've blown all their money but you can't really just shrug away lighting $130M on fire like it's no big deal.


Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't public pensions always kind of expected government to fund their failures?


----------



## Griff (Sep 7, 2016)

To me, bitcoin is an almost cult-like ponzi scheme. Those who own and hold it believe it is going to become the next currency- for everyone. So by buying and holding literally forever, they feel they will be able to cash in when that happens.

The ponzi scheme part is that this all requires other people to believe and buy in as well. But sadly nobody who doesn't own bitcoin thinks this way.

And I have a question - if I owned 100% of the bitcoin, literally ALL of it, what would it be worth?


----------



## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

Griff said:


> The ponzi scheme part is that this all requires other people to believe and buy in as well. But sadly nobody who doesn't own bitcoin thinks this way.


My understanding is that is true for all currency that isn't backed by silver or gold.

I listen to some poker podcasts, and under the heading of is it useful for porn, there was a time when the primary uses seemed to be gambling and fraud. One podcast often remarks on the 5-10 bitcoin games that were played at the time. There were people who accumulated thousands of bitcoin back then and basically forgot about them until a couple of years ago. One of the podcasters cashed out half his bitcoin at about $19,000.

That was the time to get in.


----------



## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Okay Player said:


> No one's saying they've blown all their money but you can't really just shrug away lighting $130M on fire like it's no big deal.


The fund is worth $220 Billion, so losing about 1/1700th of it, $130million, is like most of us losing $100 at the casino. A bad day, but not our life savings. Think of it as 2 xLarge pizzas from the fancy place, or a taxi to the Ottawa airport..


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

tomee2 said:


> The fund is worth $220 Billion, so losing about 1/1700th of it, $130million, is like most of us losing $100 at the casino. A bad day, but not our life savings. Think of it as 2 xLarge pizzas from the fancy place, or a taxi to the Ottawa airport..


A couple things to remember. Flushing $100 down the toilet is an incredibly stupid thing to do, even if you can afford it. The other would be that saying "It's only $100mil they have hundreds of billions." Kind of undercuts the teacher's negotiating position they've used forever. Just a thought.


----------



## Robhotdad (Oct 27, 2016)

I invest in things that have actual day to day value. For instance, today I bought an 8Kg bag of rice. It sits in a plastic bin in my cold room. I'm going to buy another one next week along with some flour. I'm buying some Mason jars too to can some veggies and fruits. Now, when the famine hits, and I'm pretty certain the elites are planning one, your gold, your bitcoin and your Disney stocks aren't going to be worth shit.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Robhotdad said:


> I invest in things that have actual day to day value. For instance, today I bought an 8Kg bag of rice. It sits in a plastic bin in my cold room. I'm going to buy another one next week along with some flour. I'm buying some Mason jars too to can some veggies and fruits. Now, when the famine hits, and I'm pretty certain the elites are planning one, your gold, your bitcoin and your Disney stocks aren't going to be worth shit.


----------



## keto (May 23, 2006)

Here is an excellent summary. The problem was nothing to do with crypto, per se. FTX did bad financial things, and got caught out over leveraged.








From $32 billion to criminal investigations: How Sam Bankman-Fried's crypto empire vanished overnight


Two weeks ago, Sam Bankman-Fried was seen as the respectable face of crypto. It all went up in smoke. Here's how.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)




----------



## GuitarTalk (Dec 25, 2018)

Parabola said:


> My buddy has been trying to convince me to invest since probably 2015 (?) I took a deep look, and tried to find a solid understanding of the market, in brief here’s what I was able to find and some of my opinions. I might be inviting a argument here, but here it is…
> 
> 1) The technology is interesting, but is certainly not going to save the world as some belei.
> 
> ...


But you can hold tethered digital assets ("crypto").... tether to Euro, USD etc... it's value is supposed to be always trading at parity with the currency/asset it is pegged to / backed by (for example USDT is supposed to be always worth $1 USD). This way you can use the technology without holding anything too speculative. Now the question as to whether a specific tethered digital asset is ACTUALLY properly backed and getting proper audit paperwork (that would allow you to do your diligence to make sure you're not getting scammed)... that's a different story.

Also, "mining" and the argument that crypto is bad for the environment only applies to proof of work blockchains (i.e. bitcoin). On the other hand, proof of stake doesn't require the same hardware computing power and therefore has very little affect on the environment/energy etc.


----------



## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

GuitarTalk said:


> But you can hold tethered digital assets ("crypto").... tether to Euro, USD etc... it's value is supposed to be always trading at parity with the currency/asset it is pegged to / backed by (for example USDT is supposed to be always worth $1 USD). This way you can use the technology without holding anything too speculative. Now the question as to whether a specific tethered digital asset is ACTUALLY properly backed and getting proper audit paperwork (that would allow you to do your diligence to make sure you're not getting scammed)... that's a different story.
> 
> Also, "mining" and the argument that crypto is bad for the environment only applies to proof of work blockchains (i.e. bitcoin). On the other hand, proof of stake doesn't require the same hardware computing power and therefore has very little affect on the environment/energy etc.


As you point out the concept of stable coins vs the reality are different things, they are probably less than 10% of the market, and I think lack of regulation undermines confidence in it for non crypto folks.

The US government estimates global energy consumption for all crypto environments to be between 120-240 billion kilowatt hours. Canada is estimated to have used 65 million kilowatt hours this year, and China about 850 million kilowatt hours, so I’d say it most definitely is having an impact, as much of that electric generation is coming from coal fired plants in China and India. What percentage of that are mining costs? No idea, but even if it’s a percentage Of 1%, it’s still having an environmental impact, the IEA estimates only 17% of global energy production comes from hydroelectric generation , with around another 15% coming from renewable resources like solar etc. that means the other 70% is coming from hydrocarbon or nuclear fuelled generation. It’s a huge consumer of electricity.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

GuitarTalk said:


> Also, "mining" and the argument that crypto is bad for the environment only applies to proof of work blockchains (i.e. bitcoin). On the other hand, proof of stake doesn't require the same hardware computing power and therefore has very little affect on the environment/energy etc.


The mining argument also disregards that every industry uses large amounts of electricity. If memory serves IT will use like 25% of the Earth's total electricity produced within the next couple of years.


----------



## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

Okay Player said:


> The mining argument also disregards that every industry uses large amounts of electricity. If memory serves IT will use like 25% of the Earth's total electricity produced within the next couple of years.


It’s probably getting close to that already if you include things like cooling when talking about IT. Systems, especially crypto mining systems generate a ton of heat, so data centres typically have very sophisticated cooling systems that consume lots of energy. That’s why you were seeing lots of crypto mining data centres built in cool climates like Canada, Iceland, Northern Europe etc..usually cooler climates with access to cheap and stable electricity.

I’d also include cellular/data/telecommunications networks under the IT banner.

If you wanted to really stretch it, you could include the natural resources, processing, and manufacturing industries needed to mine raw materials, and convert them to materials used to make technology components.

Humans consume vast quantities of resources In our pursuits.


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

FTX's new CEO blasted Sam Bankman-Fried over 'a complete failure of corporate controls' in a scathing bankruptcy filing


"Never in my career have I seen such a complete absence of trustworthy financial information as occurred here," John Ray said on Thursday.




www.businessinsider.com




_"Never in my career have I seen such a complete failure of corporate controls and such a complete absence of trustworthy financial information as occurred here," John J. Ray said in a declaration on Thursday as part of the company's Chapter 11 bankruptcy proceedings.

Ray has overseen the aftermath of the "largest corporate failures in history" in his 40-plus years of legal and restructuring experience – including the liquidation of Enron.

"From compromised systems integrity and faulty regulatory oversight abroad, to the concentration of control in the hands of a very small group of inexperienced, unsophisticated and potentially compromised individuals, this situation is unprecedented," Ray wrote.

Some entities associated with FTX Group may have also bought homes for their staff and advisors using corporate funds, he said._


----------



## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

laristotle said:


> FTX's new CEO blasted Sam Bankman-Fried over 'a complete failure of corporate controls' in a scathing bankruptcy filing
> 
> 
> "Never in my career have I seen such a complete absence of trustworthy financial information as occurred here," John Ray said on Thursday.
> ...


I read a similar article on CNBC this morning. It's sounding like this is worse than they thought.


----------



## Delores Streisand (Nov 4, 2018)

I can see a lot of uses for blockchain technology. I have yet to hear anyone explain to me why using it to create “crypto currency” makes any sense at all. Makes more sense to invest in tulips.


----------



## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




----------



## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

Okay Player said:


> Current government is planning to do that on all assets.


Don’t get me started…


----------



## Delores Streisand (Nov 4, 2018)

Paul Running said:


> View attachment 448936
> 
> View attachment 448937
> 
> View attachment 448938


If that was a response to my comment, you just reinforced it. I can see a lot of uses for blockchain technology, but still haven’t had anyone explain why crypto currencies make any sense.


----------



## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

Delores Streisand said:


> If that was a response to my comment, you just reinforced it. I can see a lot of uses for blockchain technology, but still haven’t had anyone explain why crypto currencies make any sense.


People these days don’t trust institutions and are super paranoid about government over reach, so the crypto industry definitely caters to that market And exploits that distrust.

I’m not convinced that I want my private information , financial information or medical records hosted on an open source “transparent“ platform. I’ve yet to see a use case or business case that successfully argues the point, “if only we had blockchain!”. It’s another technology that’s looking for a path to being commercialized and sold to consumers. I’m sure i has useful applications, but like anything else, just because you can do something, doesn’t mean you should do it.

I want my information on proprietary and secured technology, designed and maintained using NIST and ITSG standards, under continuous monitoring, with well funded security operations and regulatory oversight…so essentially what the banks and government are mostly doing right now. If my bank announced Tomorrow they were moving to blockchain, I’d close my account.

I think we may very well see a day when nation states develop and use their own digital currencies, but they will do it mostly as a cost savings measure probably as minting and printing money is very expensive, in fact many countries don have a capability to do it. You’d be surprised at how many countries have their currency made by the Canadian Mint.

Currently I don’t see any problems being experienced with banks or international financial institutions, including governments, being able to move money around. When it comes time to go digital, they will do it in a secure and methodical process, and frankly that’s what you want. Stability is the most critical thing in financial systems, FTX is a prime example of what happens when you run too far out ahead of the policy and regulatory frameworks…or ignore them.


----------



## Skynyrds Innyrds (5 mo ago)

The whole mining aspect of crypto makes no sense as they are literally creating money from thin air. But never underestimate people's greed.


----------



## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Skynyrds Innyrds said:


> The whole mining aspect of crypto makes no sense as they are literally creating money from thin air. But never underestimate people's greed.


Absolutely. 

I don't understand how young generations can cry for our environment while simultaneously committing a huge percentage of our electrical capatcity to essentially a computer game.


----------



## Delores Streisand (Nov 4, 2018)

Parabola said:


> People these days don’t trust institutions and are super paranoid about government over reach, so the crypto industry definitely caters to that market And exploits that distrust.


it seems so. Take some general paranoia, combine it with the appeal of “sticking it” to governments and banks and a generous helping of FOMO, and you have all the makings of a crypto bro.


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

What ever happened to coffee tins buried in the back yard?


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Skynyrds Innyrds said:


> The whole mining aspect of crypto makes no sense as they are literally creating money from thin air.


This is not really how it works. They are solving equations for the lack of a better term that are already predetermined to exist. Take bitcoin for example, the maximum amount of coins that can exist is 21 million. This was determined during the programming and cannot be altered.


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Buy something that doesn't exist, has no value outside it's own parameters, and is not backed in any way what so ever. Sounds like a Ponzi scheme, pyramid scheme, or the stock market. They may say it is worth X dollars, but if everyone is selling it, it's worth nothing.
There is no such thing as free money.


----------



## bentwire17 (Sep 7, 2011)

Maxine Waters head of finance committee is going to head the investigation on FTX. Lol.
She’s taken money from Sam .
Sam bathed Democrats with cash.
Sam took huge money from Ukrainian/USA bailouts
And invested it in god knows what.
There’s money buried somewhere?
Bigger scandal then Enron .
You can’t make this up but the Democrats will bury this or Sam?!


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

FTX's Sam Bankman-Fried bought off media outlets, including The New York Times, to publish puff-piece propaganda articles about him


Democrat mega-donor Sam Bankman-Fried (SBF), the brainchild behind the now-imploded FTX cryptocurrency money laundering Ponzi scheme, appears to be buying positive coverage about himself in major corporate-controlled media outlets. One of them is The New York Times, which published a softball dam




www.naturalnews.com


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

bentwire17 said:


> There’s money buried somewhere?











Sam Bankman-Fried shifts blame for FTX collapse to ex-girlfriend’s crypto firm


Bankman-Fried and Ellison were reportedly part of a group of 10 roommates that controlled operations at FTX and Alameda from a penthouse in the Bahamas.




nypost.com


----------



## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

What is the case for suing Larry David?


----------



## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

Mark Brown said:


> This is not really how it works. They are solving equations for the lack of a better term that are already predetermined to exist. Take bitcoin for example, the maximum amount of coins that can exist is 21 million. This was determined during the programming and cannot be altered.


 I’ve read conflicting things on the finite number of bitcoin, but again there is so much stuff out there, who really knows. Even the origin story of the mysterious Satoshi seems like it might be a fairytale.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Parabola said:


> I’ve read conflicting things on the finite number of bitcoin, but again there is so much stuff out there, who really knows. Even the origin story of the mysterious Satoshi seems like it might be a fairytale.


Ok... so everything is an assumption when talking about Bitcoin, ill give you that. The theoretical cap is 21 million and will likely never be reached for various coding phenomenon in the ledger. But that aside, it isnt like folks are just pulling it out of thin air. There is a finite number of commodity and the value is derived purely from speculation.

I think that's better


----------



## Delores Streisand (Nov 4, 2018)

Mark Brown said:


> Ok... so everything is an assumption when talking about Bitcoin, ill give you that. The theoretical cap is 21 million and will likely never be reached for various coding phenomenon in the ledger. But that aside, it isnt like folks are just pulling it out of thin air. There is a finite number of commodity and the value is derived purely from speculation.


An arbitrarily finite amount of nothingness. Great. Now I see lots of value there. 🙄


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Delores Streisand said:


> An arbitrarily finite amount of nothingness. Great. Now I see lots of value there. 🙄


Oh I never said there was value. 

I think the whole thing is bananas, even if I find the technology fascinating. Blockchain as a tool has great utility, as an investment vehicle, I cannot say I would ever feel secure.


----------



## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

...


----------



## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Mark Brown said:


> Oh I never said there was value.
> 
> I think the whole thing is bananas, even if I find the technology fascinating. Blockchain as a tool has great utility, as an investment vehicle, I cannot say I would ever feel secure.


Smartest guy in the thread.


----------



## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




----------



## carboncopy (4 mo ago)

I personally would never invest in crypto, seems like another way for the wealthy to manipulate markets in their favour and extract more money out of regular folks. Blockchain is definitely an interesting concept, but crypto currency turned into basically Beanie Babies, but at least with those you got a stuffed animal when your investment evaporated.


----------



## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

bentwire17 said:


> Maxine Waters head of finance committee is going to head the investigation on FTX. Lol.
> She’s taken money from Sam .
> Sam bathed Democrats with cash.
> Sam took huge money from Ukrainian/USA bailouts
> ...


MTG will save us!


----------



## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)




----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

The riveting train wreck of a Sam Bankman-Fried interview


"I’ve had a bad month," said the former CEO of FTX, speaking at his first public interview since his crypto exchange went up in smoke.




www.vox.com




_Bankman-Fried attempted to clarify and soften some of the comments in that interview at the DealBook Summit, saying that he genuinely cared about important issues such as animal welfare and pandemic prevention. But he stood firm on the idea that “doing good” was often a PR game that companies played. “There’s a bunch of bullshit that regulated companies do,” he said. “It’s just a PR campaign masquerading as do-gooderism.” He acknowledged that he, too, had participated in such PR campaigns. “Yeah. We all did.” 

When asked whether he had been honest during the interview, Bankman-Fried’s answer was a perfect encapsulation of the vagueness and word-twisting he’d displayed during the interview. “I was as truthful as, you know, I am knowledgeable to be,” he said. And then, as if he was thinking better of the hedging, he added: “Yes, I was.” _


----------



## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

The interview and other interviews with his girlfriend really illustrate the dangers of greed and being a uneducated investor. I don’t know how anyone could watch any of these characters and think they could be trusted with vast sums of their money.

It’s been interesting to watch the fallout, weeks now, since the original post. The market has been impacted in some expected and unexpected ways, but it’s been interesting to watch governments circle the wreckage with what I sense will be their regulatory hats on.

It’s also interesting to watch many people double down on crypto now, saying this is the time to strike and get in, or get in deeper. It reminds me of people with gambling problems that are just needing one more big win to be on top.


----------



## polyslax (May 15, 2020)

Parabola said:


> I don’t know how anyone could watch any of these characters and think they could be trusted with vast sums of their money.


Indeed. I would extend this mass delusional behaviour to many of the completely unqualified, obviously sketchy political hopefuls that (some of) the populace seems to be dying to hand the keys of power to. Is it lack of critical thinking skills? Why are so many people not seeing through the machinations of hucksters and snake oil salesmen these days?


----------



## keto (May 23, 2006)

Parabola said:


> The interview and other interviews with his girlfriend really illustrate the dangers of greed and being a uneducated investor. I don’t know how anyone could watch any of these characters and think they could be trusted with vast sums of their money.
> 
> It’s been interesting to watch the fallout, weeks now, since the original post. The market has been impacted in some expected and unexpected ways, but it’s been interesting to watch governments circle the wreckage with what I sense will be their regulatory hats on.
> 
> It’s also interesting to watch many people double down on crypto now, saying this is the time to strike and get in, or get in deeper. It reminds me of people with gambling problems that are just needing one more big win to be on top.


SBF will go to jail for a long time, like Elizabeth Holmes.

Cathy Wood (big investment guru in tech) calling for bitcoin to be a MILLLLLLYUN DOLLLLARSSSS









DOJ asks for independent probe into FTX bankruptcy, a likely tactic to gather evidence on alleged fraud


FTX's bankruptcy protection case requires an independent review, the DOJ said in a court filing. It could be used to gather evidence on alleged fraud.




www.cnbc.com


----------



## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

keto said:


> SBF will go to jail for a long time, like Elizabeth Holmes.
> 
> Cathy Wood (big investment guru in tech) calling for bitcoin to be a MILLLLLLYUN DOLLLLARSSSS
> 
> ...


He comes from money and his family is very well connected politically. I’m not sure he’ll see any time.

It’s funny you mention Woods. A year or so I made a very small investment in one of her ETF’s as an experiment of sorts. While I don’t believe in crypto, I do think States and core financial institutions like the BIS, will probably move to a digital currency at some point, if for no other reason than the huge cost of printing and maintaining a physical currency capability. In fact The Canadian Mint produces physical currency for many countries because it’s so expensive, it’s cheaper to outsource it to us.

Anyways, I was interested in that ETF, because they have companies that are exploring financial services in the digital space, and I figured it was worth a bit of risk to see what they did (imagine being the Visa or Mastercard of the digital space). So far, I’ve lost 50% of my money, but I’m going to hang onto it to see where it goes.


----------



## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

bbigsby said:


> My negative take on Crypto is this:
> 
> if you have a 59 Les Paul in your basement and through word of mouth thugs find out. They steal it at you have some hope for recovery via insurance or traceable via sn#.
> 
> ...


The FEDs are the thugs. A tweet by a crypto millionaire stated the CIA and some ped ring associated with the CIA was after him and he'd likely die. It was recent - and he was found dead 4 days later. Read part below - "civil forfeiture" - fucking insane. 

"The Biden Administration called for a dramatic expansion in the federal government’s ability to seize and keep cryptocurrency in a 61-page recent report by the US Attorney General. If passed, the proposed changes would strengthen both criminal forfeiture, which requires a conviction to permanently confiscate property, and civil forfeiture, which does not require a conviction or even the filing of criminal charges."

Also, anyone with millions in one wallet should have it stolen.


----------



## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Oh, and I'll say it again...

RBC uses Ripple's XRP
China uses Vechain (VET)

and now Alibaba uses Avalanche (AVAX).

I need you guys to understand that you are out-of-the-know (for the most part). Picture people who buy guitars at Best Buy...that's you.

(or people who prefer strats)

People who are PROPERLY involved in Crypto (more importantly Web3) have Norm (from Norm's Rare Guitars) on speed dial.


----------



## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

keto said:


> SBF will go to jail for a long time, like Elizabeth Holmes.


Unless his political connections come to his aid. The guy's a crook.


----------



## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

Some clever person once said "Never invest in something you don't understand."


----------



## Delores Streisand (Nov 4, 2018)

Adcandour said:


> I need you guys to understand that you are out-of-the-know…


If you NEED people to understand that, then perhaps you should explain to us why someone who has no interest in gambling/speculating should own crypto currency. And in that explanation try not to:

Seem paranoid about global cabals and other alt-right shit
Rely entirely on “Bro… you’re missing out! I’m gonna be rich!” as an explanation
Talk about the benefits of blockchain technology, pretending that the benefits of crypto currency are then self-evident
Bet you can’t do it!


----------



## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Delores Streisand said:


> If you NEED people to understand that, then perhaps you should explain to us why someone who has no interest in gambling/speculating should own crypto currency. And in that explanation try not to:
> 
> Seem paranoid about global cabals and other alt-right shit
> Rely entirely on “Bro… you’re missing out! I’m gonna be rich!” as an explanation
> ...


Well, I agree with you though.

1) People who don't understand any method of investing probably should have someone else handle their portfolio.

2) People who are looking to gamble/speculate shouldn't own crypto unless they can afford to lose money and just want to have fun.

I'm just saying that you forumites have limited knowledge re crypto (embarrassingly little), and, more importantly, it's applications in Web3. The benefits become evident with only a little research - you know...the same effort you might put into research stocks?

As mentioned in another thread that was shitting on NFTs, I research companies in Web3 for a venture capitalist firm in my spare time. I am insanely well equipped to discuss this shit, but having a conversation with you guys is like...the best buy thing.


----------



## Delores Streisand (Nov 4, 2018)

Adcandour said:


> Well, I agree with you though.
> 
> 1) People who don't understand any method of investing probably should have someone else handle their portfolio.
> 
> ...


Yes, I’m sure you’re too smart to discuss it with us dullards. Best to just keep posting about how smart you are rather than saying anything substantive,

You seem like as big an a-hole as every other crypto bro I’ve met.


----------



## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)




----------



## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Delores Streisand said:


> Yes, I’m sure you’re too smart to discuss it with us dullards. Best to just keep posting about how smart you are rather than saying anything substantive,
> 
> You seem like as big an a-hole as every other crypto bro I’ve met.


im a huge asshole. and you're dumb. I get why you're upset.


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

One person, Adcandour, gets dumped on because he wont breakdown what crypto is, like using a 'dick and jane want to invest' book.
If one is smart enough to care about investing, they should already know how to do their research.


----------



## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

My take on crypto is that it is number line theory but runs the line backwards by increasing numbers of segments as the coins become ever more divided. Some of us old farts that were taught "the new math" in school get the concept but also fully understand crypto will do nothing but deflate against standard currencies, it is imaginary gold not a tangible asset. When a coin costs more it does not matter how many units it is divided into it simply becomes unaffordable and like a bloated star it will explode when no one can afford to trade their imaginary asset. 

Spending tangible currency on fad currencies that deflate in units in reverse is speculation and will not serve to stabilize economic issues in any way. What if no one wants to exchange real physical assets for what is in an imaginary wallet that goes up and down in exchange value worse than real currencies. The inevitable crashes occur when holders dump coins and the whole pyramid scheme comes down in little building blocks like a house of cards during an earth quake. The same way dumping gold into the market decreased the value of it when Russia needed cash during the cold war. So today wealthy people are hording imaginary crypto gold and gold instead of creating new capitol by producing or investing in production of goods, the result is inflation in the value of real goods and especially these days staples like food. 

Most so called "crypto professionals" want to be able to just plant their assets in a chairs instead of actually working to make a living, this causes inflation and crypto currency failures as much as "professional" speculation in real currencies and real estate has done and is about to do again. 

How easily people forget the fundamentals of economics which caused the crashes of 1928 and the depression experienced by our parents, grand parents and for the young great grand parents. It was speculative greed. 

Crypto is just a new high tech version of Wall Street paper loans on margins that caused the 1928 crash and subsequent depression. Same nonsense as selling futures as stock on mortgage loans, which caused the recent financial institutional bust created by the deregulation of imaginary asset exchanges on the stock market.


----------



## Delores Streisand (Nov 4, 2018)

laristotle said:


> One person, Adcandour, gets dumped on because he wont breakdown what crypto is, like using a 'dick and jane want to invest' book.
> If one is smart enough to care about investing, they should already know how to do their research.


I’m not looking for an explanation of what crypto is. I’m looking for a rationale as to why anyone should buy it other than as gambling/speculation. Because I’ve done plenty of research and have never come up with one, But rather than answering that simple question Adcancour responds by telling us all how much smarter he is than everybody else here. Of course he doesn’t do anything to demonstrate how smart he is. He just hopes we’ll take his word for it.

And then you chime in with ”do your own research”? Seriously? That’s the closing statement of every Q-Anon follower that has their hair-brained theories torn to shreds by rational people. That’s the best you can do?


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Delores Streisand said:


> That’s the best you can do?


Guess that you'll just have to take my word for it.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Parabola said:


> The interview and other interviews with his girlfriend really illustrate the dangers of greed and being a uneducated investor. I don’t know how anyone could watch any of these characters and think they could be trusted with vast sums of their money.
> 
> It’s been interesting to watch the fallout, weeks now, since the original post. The market has been impacted in some expected and unexpected ways, but it’s been interesting to watch governments circle the wreckage with what I sense will be their regulatory hats on.
> 
> It’s also interesting to watch many people double down on crypto now, saying this is the time to strike and get in, or get in deeper. It reminds me of people with gambling problems that are just needing one more big win to be on top.


A lot of establishment investors got taken by this kid. That's the main reason it's a story and why the government's are circling the wreckage. If me and you got duped like this they'd be bailing out FTX as too big to fail.

As the saying goes "Not your keys, not your coins"...


----------



## Delores Streisand (Nov 4, 2018)

laristotle said:


> Guess that you'll just have to take my word for it.


Don’t think so. You two seem more like suckers than geniuses.


----------



## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Delores Streisand said:


> I’m not looking for an explanation of what crypto is. I’m looking for a rationale as to why anyone should buy it other than as gambling/speculation. Because I’ve done plenty of research and have never come up with one, But rather than answering that simple question Adcancour responds by telling us all how much smarter he is than everybody else here. Of course he doesn’t do anything to demonstrate how smart he is. He just hopes we’ll take his word for it.
> 
> And then you chime in with ”do your own research”? Seriously? That’s the closing statement of every Q-Anon follower that has their hair-brained theories torn to shreds by rational people. That’s the best you can do?


Well, you're obviously a fucktard - and a liar. You've done worthless research (or none at all). And, answer me this, Delores- how am I supposed to educate someone without seeming well...uh...educated? Kinda fucking retarded if you ask me, but I honestly don't expect much from someone whose name rhymes with Mulva.

Further, I never said I'm smarter than anyone - but I did say I'm more knowledgeable when it comes to cryptocurrencies, NFTs and Web3. I also said that I agree with you on specific points, so how am I supposed to move forward? You literally highlighted the questions I agreed with (which increases my doubt in your ability to comprehend - let alone research). You're RIGHT you moron. You're probably not used to hearing that and understandably glazed over my submission.

Is there a particular way you'd like me to demonstrate? At the risk of sounding "smart" ...how about you choose ONE topic, and I'll tell you why you should invest in it. Or, better yet, go eat a dick somewhere, because I honestly don't want to deal with you. 

1) IoT (Internet of Things) and the associated tokenomics 
2) Crypto gaming and the associated 2-token system and land rental.
3) peer-to-peer positioning systems accurate to the millimeter. This tech is currently being used in multiple areas within the US military and is ultra interesting.


----------



## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Delores Streisand said:


> Don’t think so. You two seem more like suckers than geniuses.


If that's your way of asking for a tag teaming, you better go off and remove some of your ribs. Larry and i have high standards. No fucktards.

Also, if you want to go back and forth like children...let's do it. I'm such a better asshole than you.


----------



## Delores Streisand (Nov 4, 2018)

Adcandour said:


> If that's your way of asking for a tag teaming, you better go off and remove some of your ribs. Larry and i have high standards. No fucktards.


Genius-level stuff right there.

Now I’m convinced.


----------



## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

Adcandour said:


> Well, you're obviously a fucktard - and a liar. You've done worthless research (or none at all). And, answer me this, Delores- how am I supposed to educate someone without seeming well...uh...educated? Kinda fucking retarded if you ask me, but I honestly don't expect much from someone whose name rhymes with Mulva.
> 
> Further, I never said I'm smarter than anyone - but I did say I'm more knowledgeable when it comes to cryptocurrencies, NFTs and Web3. I also said that I agree with you on specific points, so how am I supposed to move forward? You literally highlighted the questions I agreed with (which increases my doubt in your ability to comprehend - let alone research). You're RIGHT you moron. You're probably not used to hearing that and understandably glazed over my submission.
> 
> ...



Thanks for demonstrating the professionalism and courtesy that you no doubt bring to the industry,

Good to see the ethos of the Web3 vision alive in your heart. You have the soul of a poet.


----------



## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Delores Streisand said:


> Genius-level stuff right there.
> 
> Now I’m convinced.





Parabola said:


> Thanks for demonstrating the professionalism and courtesy that you no doubt bring to the industry,
> 
> Good to see the ethos of the Web3 vision alive in your heart. You have the soul of a poet.


Looks like I found someone to suck your dick, Mulva.


----------



## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

Adcandour said:


> Looks like I found someone to suck your dick, Mulva.


Looks like I found someone whose didn’t get enough hugs as a kid, and sought attention in inappropriate ways.

Again, thanks for showing us all who you are.

Get some help.


----------



## Delores Streisand (Nov 4, 2018)

I’ve never met a true expert in any field who isn’t able to (and happy to) explain concepts from their field of expertise in layman’s terms. Sure, they may have to simplify a few concepts, use some analogies and gloss over some extraneous info. But almost all are happy to do it for someone who shows interest.

The fundamental question people have about crypto currency is “Why should a regular person want to use this as currency?” When a self-proclaimed expert responds to that question with “You’re too dumb to understand that and I’m too smart to explain it. Figure it out yourself, fucktard! Suck my dick!!”, it’s reasonable to assume that self-proclaimed expert is just some asshole who hangs out in crypto-bro forums and actually doesn’t know shit.


----------



## fogdart (Mar 22, 2017)

You guys can’t keep this civil, posts have been flagged, and I have no desire to go thru and clean up. Closed. Congrats fellas, way to ruin an interesting topic.


----------

