# talking about necks...



## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

The thread in the main electric guitar forum - where the one member suggested "his luthier" (I wish I had my own private luthier  ) told him most (thats a Lot of necks) newer Fender guitars will develop twisted necks. Even a small percentage of warped necks would mean huge losses due to warranty issues. And besides that, in all my years playing and building, I have had very few experiences seing a twisted neck (I have - but very very few).

My experience, with both bought and home made necks - and thousands of board feet of maple lumber turned into furniture (if that counts as experience) is this:

Flat sawn VS quarter sawn does NOT matter. Either is equally stable, assuming a good piece of straight grained, properly seasoned lumber that doesnt have an internal stress from, say, being in a tree that grew crooked. 

He suggested hanging a guitar from a hook will somehow be "better" than keeping it in a case. Hogwash... I need some scientific explination of that one...  String tension is the same in all orientations.

IMP what makes a neck go, is:

- a bad piece of wood. It happens, generally when youuse a piece with internal stresses either natural, or introduced during kiln drying.

- a piece of wood that has excessive grain run out

- having the guitar too close to a direct source of heat, like an exchange duct or fireplace, etc. Too much heat too fast over time will/can warp a piece of wood

Anyone want to comment/discuss their own experiences or thoughts? 

AJC


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## Hypno Toad (Aug 1, 2009)

Ah, good, we can carry this into the designated forum for arguing 


I personally think that the largest contribution to neck deforming is what glue you use. It is the most likely thing to cause the neck to warp under stress, IMO (unless the wood is really bad). Not really sure if it's factual. Best way to test that would be make a few identical necks out a mid range grade of wood with different types of glue on the fretboard and keep them in the same condition to see which ones warp first.

I've made 4 necks, the only one that has warped is a solid maple one that I used a different wood glue on. I'm going to be using epoxy from now on to be safe.


As for the hanging the guitar solution, I'm skeptical and think he's selling snake oil theories.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

i agree ajc-
only twisted fender necks ive seen where from extremely bad storage methods- like sitting unstrung for years in a cold damp basement or a hot ass attic, orsomething like that.
only one i had twist on me was because i never finished it and it soaked up sweat and stuff until the wood started rotting.
newer fender necks are not much different from older ones. very stable, simple and solid.
theres a load of bad info out there. too many "luthiers" are just simple set-up guys with a head full of myths and personal biases.

this is why you have "techs" and "luthiers" as two seperate things. sure they can overlap in many cases, but a 23 year old guitar player with a bench at the back of some guitar shop with a few screwdrivers and a ruler isnt a luthier lol, although he may be the best set up guy in his city.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I can't see a neck twisting after it's been built unless it was built from green wood. I'm sure Fender is very carefull about moisture content, grain, knots, etc of the wood they use to build necks from. I could see cracking being more of a problem than twisting.

I had one chinese neck with a twist. Drove me crazy. I had it mounted on the third guitar (gave up on it twice) before *I learned *how to properly level a neck. It's been good every since, one of my favorite players in fact.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

You mean that letting my guitar sit in the back of a hatcback, strung up, in the sun, with hot days and cold evenings and the humidity skyrocketing is bad for the guitar? lol


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

i just found the original thread you guys were alluding too-
if all the newer fender necks were warping, wouldnt we have been seeing posts about this all over the internet by now?
wouldnt a bunch of us have experienced it by now?
i mean, what about a place like the tdpri? thered be hundreds of warped neck threads. wouldnt there?


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## Hypno Toad (Aug 1, 2009)

I think a lot of people just get weird ideas about things some times.


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## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

fraser said:


> i just found the original thread you guys were alluding too-
> if all the newer fender necks were warping, wouldnt we have been seeing posts about this all over the internet by now?
> wouldnt a bunch of us have experienced it by now?
> i mean, what about a place like the tdpri? thered be hundreds of warped neck threads. wouldnt there?


you'd think....

As for glue, again, remember I am a woodworker by trade, and even though I am only 39, I have over 20,000 hours working full time, building mainly custom furniture. I have tried pretty much every wood glue in every application. Regular water based PVA or aliphatic wood glue doesnt warp wood. Trust me... Epoxy is great, but not necessary. I use the same PVA (white wood glue) for my guitar building as I do for my other furniture work. Epoxy is higher strength, and wont hurt - other than being much, much harder to get apart if you ever need to remove the board. Unless you are using watered down glue, the moisture the wood is absorbing from the glue is negligable and should not cause any issues. Its gone in a short period of time.

I would also just like to say, everything I say is of course just my opinion - but I try and base that opinion on factual experience rather than what I "think". If that makes sense. Doesnt mean I am always right... 

AJC


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

fraser said:


> .
> theres a load of bad info out there. too many "luthiers" are just simple set-up guys with a head full of myths and personal biases.
> 
> this is why you have "techs" and "luthiers" as two seperate things. sure they can overlap in many cases, but a 23 year old guitar player with a bench at the back of some guitar shop with a few screwdrivers and a ruler isnt a luthier lol, although he may be the best set up guy in his city.


Agreed. I hear so many of these weird ideas from students who either speak with the wrong "authorities", make it up themselves, or simply misunderstand what they've heard and read.

For example, student one thinks that *Traynor* amps are *trainer* amps; student two thinks electrics are better than acoustics; student three thinks electrics are harder to build than acoustics; student four thinks tab was invented by and for rockers; student five thinks Les Paul is pronounced as if it was the French _les_; student six thinks maple is a softwood because it's light coloured; student seven thinks that strings have to be slackened after every use (well, that's what granddad says); student eight thinks classical guitars are cheap because they have plastic strings; student nine thinks a pickup makes an acoustic better; student ten thinks bolt on necks are inferior to dovetails or set-necks; student eleven thinks truss rods are for adjusting action (without regard for the saddle); student twelve thinks the fretboard should be flat;...

You get the idea. 

I have friends who are luthiers but I don't have a personal luthier. "My luthier" is a laugh and a half. Funny how we say "my" for plumber, mechanic, priest, king...All hail KING MOOH and his court luthier...

Peace, Mooh.


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## Hypno Toad (Aug 1, 2009)

ajcoholic said:


> you'd think....
> 
> As for glue, again, remember I am a woodworker by trade, and even though I am only 39, I have over 20,000 hours working full time, building mainly custom furniture. I have tried pretty much every wood glue in every application. Regular water based PVA or aliphatic wood glue doesnt warp wood. Trust me... Epoxy is great, but not necessary. I use the same PVA (white wood glue) for my guitar building as I do for my other furniture work. Epoxy is higher strength, and wont hurt - other than being much, much harder to get apart if you ever need to remove the board. Unless you are using watered down glue, the moisture the wood is absorbing from the glue is negligable and should not cause any issues. Its gone in a short period of time.
> 
> ...


Well, I'll take it into account obviously. You've been doing it a lot longer than I have. Still, just to be safe I'd like to try epoxy a bit and see what results I get. If I had the tools I'd be making one piece necks anyways, so I don't really intend for the fretboard to be taken off 


I actually used gorilla glue last time for the fretboard and I thought that might have been the culprit due to the fast drying time and composition of the glue. Epoxy is a chemical reaction that does not require air to dry, and I don't think it looses much volume while drying, so I always figured it was the best thing to use.


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## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

Hypno Toad said:


> Well, I'll take it into account obviously. You've been doing it a lot longer than I have. Still, just to be safe I'd like to try epoxy a bit and see what results I get. If I had the tools I'd be making one piece necks anyways, so I don't really intend for the fretboard to be taken off
> 
> 
> I actually used gorilla glue last time for the fretboard and I thought that might have been the culprit due to the fast drying time and composition of the glue. Epoxy is a chemical reaction that does not require air to dry, and I don't think it looses much volume while drying, so I always figured it was the best thing to use.


Well, here is my take on glue... again, based upon my experience.

Epoxy, yes indeed it doesnt contain any solvents, basically 100% solids. It doesnt shrink when curing because of this. It comes in many forms however... the best type of epoxy for gluing wood (by best meaning strongest) is a thin, slower cure time resin made expressly for gluing wood. The worst stuff is the 5 minute epoxy sold in hardware stores - too thick to penetrate into thge wood and too fast curing as well. And they cure to a rubbery state, not hard. The best IMO are products such as West Systems resins and hardeners, expressly made for gluing high strength wood to wood joints. You can tailor the cure time by using different hardeners. But the standard 105 resin and 205 or 206 hardeners are awesome. They also cure to a hard "fully cured" state. VERY strong.

Polyurethane glues like "gorilla" - are not very strong in my experience, and I have tested them out in my business. WHen they came out (I used a few industrial versions, marketed and sold to woodworking companies like mine vs what you get in the hardware store) they were interesting. But I have had mixed results after much use. The glue itself is pretty weak. If you dont have a very good wood to wood contact, the glue is gap filling but also offers very little strength. The glue doesnt penetrate into the wood as well as a traditional wood glue or thin epoxy and again, isnt the best IMO for our purposes.

I would really steer clear of these types of adhesives - they look good, and they are sold as being the "best" or "strongest" kind of glue but they really are not...

Again, if you have a good wood to wood mating surface, and use the correct amount of glue (not too much, not too little - you should always have just a small amount of squeeze out, and have the surface fully clamped) regular white or yellow woodworking adhesive is IMO the best bet. Something like Titebond I or II, you cant really go wrong with.

AJC


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## copperhead (May 24, 2006)

i use good old yellow carpenters or tight bond for gluing fingerboards .but i make sure its new & it did not freeze, it kind of goes like cottage cheese, & it don't seem to spread the same after frozen its kind of lumpy , i had to remove one of those fingerboards & i used a steam iron and a hot knife. i hope never encounter a problem with glue warping the neck


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## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

copperhead said:


> i use good old yellow carpenters or tight bond for gluing fingerboards .but i make sure its new & it did not freeze, it kind of goes like cottage cheese, & it don't seem to spread the same after frozen its kind of lumpy , i had to remove one of those fingerboards & i used a steam iron and a hot knife. i hope never encounter a problem with glue warping the neck


Oh yes... I was going to mention that.

Water based PVA should NEVER EVER be frozen, and if it does get frozen, it should be discarded.

You can usually tell when white glue has been frozen even if it doesnt go lumpy. When it cures, it goes chalky.

Some newer formulations, like Titebond III (IIRC) claim a zero degredation bond when frozen, and a selling point is shipping to customers in winter.

I always buy a few 20 litre pails of glue in the late fall before winter sets in. That way I am sure to get it here knowing it wasnt sitting in the back of a transport in -20 degree weather.... and that lasts me through until spring.

How the hardware stores do it I dont know... thats why I am always leary about buying wood glue from a store in the winter.

AJC


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Here we go... Aj do you get those free trade magazines for industrial woodworkers? There used to be one of them that had a Dear Abby type article but the man's name was Jerry Mertz. Wonderful columns. One of his biggest things was to physically test the moisture content of random boards in *every* lift . Even in the best kilns there were boards that were killers.... you know the ones that are casehardened and go wild when you cut them bind the blade etc. 

I don't think that the neck problem is really as bad as stated in the other thread but with the speed of which stuff is processed at the Fender plant I don't doubt that boards like that slip through the QC section or twist later. I am assuming that it's just cheaper for Fender to give out new necks for the warranty (hey that's what made Fender successful is the bolt on necks) 

Small guys/girls had the advantage of keeping their wood around for awhile amd keep an eye on it BEFORE using it. I wonder how long a 1000 mbf lasts in the neck plant? You follow my line of thought.


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## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

shoretyus said:


> Here we go... Aj do you get those free trade magazines for industrial woodworkers? There used to be one of them that had a Dear Abby type article but the man's name was Jerry Mertz. Wonderful columns. One of his biggest things was to physically test the moisture content of random boards in *every* lift . Even in the best kilns there were boards that were killers.... you know the ones that are casehardened and go wild when you cut them bind the blade etc.
> 
> I don't think that the neck problem is really as bad as stated in the other thread but with the speed of which stuff is processed at the Fender plant I don't doubt that boards like that slip through the QC section or twist later. I am assuming that it's just cheaper for Fender to give out new necks for the warranty (hey that's what made Fender successful is the bolt on necks)
> 
> Small guys/girls had the advantage of keeping their wood around for awhile amd keep an eye on it BEFORE using it. I wonder how long a 1000 mbf lasts in the neck plant? You follow my line of thought.



Yeah, we get all the trade mags.. they are like a cult, once they send them to you you cant get em' to stop!

I always check wood coming in with my moisture meter. I am paying for quality, select kiln dried lumber, and if I dont get it, it goes back. Woodworking is funny... you have to stayon topof things. If I make something, and sell it to a customer, then have to goback a year later and repair/remake a piece due to a crack or twist, that is BAD for business, financially and otherwise. I am very cautious of my wood.. 

Thats it for tonight guys... time to hit the sheets. Wife went to sleep an hour ago. Not a bad start to 2010.. lets keep this forum interesting and sharing of our ideas for the next 364 1/2 days.. 

AJC


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## Hypno Toad (Aug 1, 2009)

ajcoholic said:


> Well, here is my take on glue... again, based upon my experience.
> 
> Epoxy, yes indeed it doesnt contain any solvents, basically 100% solids. It doesnt shrink when curing because of this. It comes in many forms however... the best type of epoxy for gluing wood (by best meaning strongest) is a thin, slower cure time resin made expressly for gluing wood. The worst stuff is the 5 minute epoxy sold in hardware stores - too thick to penetrate into thge wood and too fast curing as well. And they cure to a rubbery state, not hard. The best IMO are products such as West Systems resins and hardeners, expressly made for gluing high strength wood to wood joints. You can tailor the cure time by using different hardeners. But the standard 105 resin and 205 or 206 hardeners are awesome. They also cure to a hard "fully cured" state. VERY strong.
> 
> ...



I used titebond III to glue up a body blank and the thing just didn't hold, even after the given amount of time. Might have been the cold weather, because it worked fine when I used it during the summer. Not sure what happened.

The gorilla glue seems like it's a good glue for laminating and capping a body. It fills in any slight gaps there might be, and it's very clean and easy to sand. Just to test the blank, I put it on my knee and put a lot of force on it (didn't give it my best because you can probably break any glued joint doing that) but It'll definitely be good enough to hold the body together against anything a player can throw at it.

I'm not going to use it for a neck ever again, though. I think I'll be using epoxy for neckwork from now on because all things considered the wood will probably break before it does. I would like to keep a sturdy neck.


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