# Riot in London



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I smell another youtube trial coming up

From QMI Agency



> LONDON, ONT. - The east end of London became a war zone Saturday night as hundreds of rioters in the Fanshawe College area of the city attacked police and burned vehicles.
> More than 50 officers in full riot gear surrounded by an alcohol-fuelled mob on St. Patrick’s Day held a one-block sector of Fleming Drive for more than an hour before being repelled by a downpour of broken glass from thrown bottle, rocks and even wooden planks torn off of fences.
> 
> 
> ...


With this kind of mentality, what can we expect in the future?



> “This is awesome, isn’t it?” one shirtless young man bellowed. “I’ve never seen anything like this.”
> 
> 
> He was asked what started it.
> ...


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

[video=youtube;aBRNEp3Px7M]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBRNEp3Px7M[/video]


It isn't a matter that society degrades, more that parents abdicate. 

Looking up vids on youtube of this today there are some interesting comments coming out already. That there were buttheads there is an assured state. But it sounds like the revellers were not the only ones that aided in escalation of this. Will be interesting to see more as this unfolds as the nations police are being shown more and more to be of the exact same stock as the people they confront.

[video=youtube;9mUpouzT1x8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mUpouzT1x8[/video]


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

It seems to me that as we get smarter we get dumber, if that is even possible or makes sense. We are close to understanding how the universe was created yet the things that we do to make ourselves look as stupid as possible get better and better all the time. I wonder if there is anyone watching us out there and thinking "these people are f*&#$%"


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Alcohol and assholes in a mob, not a good combination.

Earlier news reports, before the riot, spoke of how the cops were being fair and understanding, even showing them on patrol not busting them but asking them to dump their drinks when in public. The morons were given an inch and they took a mile by the sounds of it. 

Peace, Mooh.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

I have lived in Niagara Falls, Toronto, Thunder Bay, Hamilton and now Burlington. Except for Burlington which does not have a College or University, not one of these cities have a history without this kind of incident. The big problem really is kids for the first time fully outside of their parental units control imbibing on the vino and then doing the dumbest things imaginable. For a lot of reasons we (society) no longer raise parents, we now raise children. They grow up to be people unable to self-parent who then have babies and so on and so on.

Being youthful in your adulthood and being responsible are not mutually exclusive.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Look at our school systems. They are run by hippies. When I went to school, we had to know our math and science, run a certain amount of miles every day, march in a straight line. If we didnt, we would be chased around the 400m track with someone whacking us in the behind with a yard stick, if we went too slow. Or we had to do pushups until we dropped. When my little brother went to school it was like a fucking hippie commune. He had to be sent to the UK in order to get a basic education, because the schools here suck (except Ashbury). Our school systems are producing human garbage because they are run by human garbage. Oscar is now in charge............


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Accept2 said:


> Look at our school systems. They are run by hippies. When I went to school, we had to know our math and science, run a certain amount of miles every day, march in a straight line. If we didnt, we would be chased around the 400m track with someone whacking us in the behind with a yard stick, if we went too slow. Or we had to do pushups until we dropped. When my little brother went to school it was like a fucking hippie commune. He had to be sent to the UK in order to get a basic education, because the schools here suck (except Ashbury). Our school systems are producing human garbage because they are run by human garbage. Oscar is now in charge............


A brutal analysis. But one I cannot argue with


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Wouldn't it have less to do with how a school is run than how these kids are raised?


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Both in my opinion.

The thing here in London with Fanshawe has been building up for a few years, this was bound to happen. I feel particularly sorry for the few families that are left living in the area around the college. Their homes are now pretty much worthless and it used to be a nice area. I'm sure we can't blame it all on the kids at the college but we can't exempt them either. Essentially anybody who wanted to "party" would have shown up. 



sulphur said:


> Wouldn't it have less to do with how a school is run than how these kids are raised?


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

keeperofthegood said:


> It isn't a matter that society degrades, more that parents abdicate.


A significant number of kids in the UK are being brought up by single moms. Looks like maybe dad was good for something after all.

Also, kids are brought up with their entertainment being the most important aspect of their lives, basically. What else do people live for now? Even relationships are based on how they make you feel and what you get out of them. This creates people who have very little ability to deeply relate to others and an incessant itch for new and more powerful stimulation. That's a bad mix and it's just the tip of the iceberg.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

sulphur said:


> Wouldn't it have less to do with how a school is run than how these kids are raised?


I agree. My wife was a teacher for a couple of years. She got sick of being a babysitter which is what the teaching profession has been reduced to thanks to parents that refuse to take responsibility for their kids' actions. 

Thanks to coddling parents who are filled with a sense of entitlement for themselves and their offspring the education system has been reduced to a daycare right up to and including University. 



Accept2 said:


> Look at our school systems. They are run by hippies.


To say hippy teachers are to blame is a joke. Teachers are not allowed to do their jobs. A University professor should not have to reprimand a class for talking during a lecture, which I have seen first hand.

Manners and obedience are taught at home.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

A lot of what happened has to do with mob mentality fuel by booze.
Not an excuse, just an observation.

I think that we've all done stupid things while drunk.
This rioting foolishness though, had never been on my radar.
Maybe I was hanging with the wrong, or right mobs.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

You see if you'd all carried cameras around with you and could actually film the stupidity and get your 15 minutes of fame you "might" have reacted differently. The comment about stimula and entertainment hit pretty close to the mark I think. I keep reassuring myself that this is the minority, not the majority, but 1,000 is a pretty large minority. Pretty much the same as what happened in Vancouver, any excuse will do.



sulphur said:


> A lot of what happened has to do with mob mentality fuel by booze.
> Not an excuse, just an observation.
> 
> I think that we've all done stupid things while drunk.
> ...


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I get that the youngin's are an overstimulated bunch,
but do you think that this type of thing would happen if it wasn't a mob of people, drunk?

I think that if you were to take out either of those factors, no riot.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

No, I agree it's mob rule and drink that drives it. The two things together are just becoming more prevalent. Perhaps 21 wasn't a bad idea for legal drinking after all  How about banning alcohol and legalizing pot? 

btw so far only 11 arrested, 7 students among them.



sulphur said:


> I get that the youngin's are an overstimulated bunch,
> but do you think that this type of thing would happen if it wasn't a mob of people, drunk?
> 
> I think that if you were to take out either of those factors, no riot.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Dave for Prime Minister. 8D


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

hardasmum said:


> To say hippy teachers are to blame is a joke. Teachers are not allowed to do their jobs. A University professor should not have to reprimand a class for talking during a lecture, which I have seen first hand.
> 
> Manners and obedience are taught at home.


I said hippies run the schools. Teachers do not run the schools, so I dont know where the hippy teachers come into play...........


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Its the mob mentality that gets me. Plus the destructive side of things. We used to party, get drunk and then everyone stumbled home. There was never even a mention of overturning cars etc. This is the part that gets me. Kids getting wasted is a part of life but the changes that I see is the destructive side and the total lack understanding or care to the property damage or consequences, Like that hotel in the Falls last year. Just beyond any kind of reason and then they are dumb enough to post pictures of themselves in the act on a worldwide public forum/website.

This total disregard for any kind of authority or rules/laws is the scary part. They think its fun. My parents always said "don't EVER have the cops show up at this house". I used to say the same thing to mine. So far so good.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

London, Ontario ?!?!?!? The most boring city in Canada???


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## mario (Feb 18, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> London, Ontario ?!?!?!? The most boring city in Canada???



Please enlighten us Londoners'....why so boring? You're the guy that lived in Pickering:zzz:? As far as the riot is concerned this is a certainly a blackeye on our community. I hope these assholes are all brought to justice and are prosectuted to the full extent of the law.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Man, when did you go to school? In the 1880s ?



Accept2 said:


> When I went to school, we had to know our math and science, run a certain amount of miles every day, march in a straight line. If we didnt, we would be chased around the 400m track with someone whacking us in the behind with a yard stick, if we went too slow. Or we had to do pushups until we dropped.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

mario said:


> Please enlighten us Londoners'....why so boring? You're the guy that lived in Pickering:zzz:?


Pickering? Close but no cigar. I went to Western for 4 years.


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## mario (Feb 18, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> Pickering? Close but no cigar. I went to Western for 4 years.


I stand corrected!


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

mario said:


> As far as the riot is concerned this is a certainly a blackeye on our community. I hope these assholes are all brought to justice and are prosectuted to the full extent of the law.


Can't disagree with that. I have found that the mental conditions of chronic and acute assholism cover the entire political spectrum.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

bagpipe said:


> Man, when did you go to school? In the 1880s ?


I am 50 and I clearly remember the strap, big long wooden rulers across the back of the head (usually administered by nuns). Even in high school in the 70's my English teacher loved to sneak up behind you if you were goofing off and he would grab those really short hairs of your sideburns and give them a nice yank. You paid attention I can assure you. Today they would all be put in jail. Never hurt me or anyone I ever grew up with. What it signaled was you were in school to learn and not goof around. I can imagine what some of those teachers I had would do with a room full of texting students. I am positive they are all glad they have long since retired. Anyone that takes up teaching in our society today has the biggest pair of balls I can think of.


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## noman (Jul 24, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> London, Ontario ?!?!?!? The most boring city in Canada???


Hey, we resemble that remark!!

I actually like Dave's remark and I've said this for years.......we legalize booze but ban dope. I am not a smoker but have enough friends who are and they are all mellow dudes when they smoke; alcohol does the opposite. We should legalize marijauana and outlaw alcohol. Imagine those 1000 kids last night, all laughing and eating pizza instead of destroying property.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2012)

'_Man made_ _booze, God made grass. Who do you trust?_'


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

bagpipe said:


> Man, when did you go to school? In the 1880s ?


1970s and 80s. Back then they let the teachers teach, and stayed out of their way. They never took any crap either.........


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I am 50 and I clearly remember the strap, big long wooden rulers across the back of the head (usually administered by nuns). Even in high school in the 70's my English teacher loved to sneak up behind you if you were goofing off and he would grab those really short hairs of your sideburns and give them a nice yank. You paid attention I can assure you. Today they would all be put in jail. Never hurt me or anyone I ever grew up with. What it signaled was you were in school to learn and not goof around. I can imagine what some of those teachers I had would do with a room full of texting students. I am positive they are all glad they have long since retired. Anyone that takes up teaching in our society today has the biggest pair of balls I can think of.



Same age and pretty much the same at my school....my 2 cents....Screw Dr. Spock....spank your kids.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

what is worse, the child that is held in check by whatever reaches the childs mind or the one under the wheels of the car whos parent says "oh dear it isnt a good idea to run in traffic maybe you want to stop that now."

Interestingly I posted this not 24 hours ago. I don't think teachers are in any way qualified to do more than teach. From behind a glass wall please and thank you. Preferably with splody collars on 

_In response to:
http://www.kveller.com/blog/parenting/does-crying-it-out-screw-your-kid-for-life/
Ah controversy. I respect you, as a person, woman and mother. I am as much a person, a man a father.  which cry are we talking about? Every aspect of a humans life from birth to death contains a vocabulary of cries. Hurt cries, hunger cries, lonely cries and even wth or wtf cries. Each cry has to be understood to know what is more appropriate as a response no matter their age. Yes an infant can cry at being put down to sleep. Is it fear of being alone? Is it a gas bubble that has to come out pressing on their tummies? Is it a tooth coming that their face on the mattress is rubbing? Not every cry is a need to be cradled and hugged for the night, nor is every cry needed to be met with indifference either. A person that fails to learn the language of cries I think is a person that is failing at learning the art of being a parent.


_

*Does ‘Crying it Out’ Screw Your Kid for Life? | Raising Kvell* 
www.kveller.comI am taking a deep breath and entering the controversial arena (second only to the hoo-ha made over breastfeeding...and maybe ...


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Accept2 said:


> hardasmum said:
> 
> 
> > To say hippy teachers are to blame is a joke. Teachers are not allowed to do their jobs. A University professor should not have to reprimand a class for talking during a lecture, which I have seen first hand.
> ...


Apologies for misreading your post


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

And yes, I blame the parents. I know in the 1970s and back it was all MOMS fault or DADS fault that the kids were so into dope and disco and it became a bad thing to point at the parents "my jr is messed up in the d n a" etc. YES that is true, that when dealing with issues of genetics and abnormalities of birth and the brain a large portion is in no way a "fault" of anyones.

However, I do take the stance that you are as you are raised. At least until you have put a fair bit of time and distance between you and your nutjobs. My late grandfather left home on his 13th birthday never returned, it was the last time his dad beat him. He turned out ok by the time of his death.

[video=youtube;Y5--nhojkFQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5--nhojkFQ&amp;ob=av2e[/video]


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

There is a big bloody red herring here. This riot had nothing to do with teaching. It's about a huge bunch of drunks who have seen this before and the mob mentality takes over. "I can do this too, Diyaaaaah!"


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Robert1950 said:


> There is a big bloody red herring here. This riot had nothing to do with teaching. It's about a huge bunch of drunks who have seen this before and the mob mentality takes over. "I can do this too, Diyaaaaah!"


Agree'd

Teachers have a job and many do well and many do not. Like any paid employee not all are perfect and some are simply better than others. But that is the limit of who and what they are. Nothing more; they are not the mom's and dad's of their class charges. While the really good ones often end up being peoples personal mentors or heros and the really bad ones end up encouraging people to drop out of school entirely they are not the ones to be the primary shapers of the personalities of those kids and for the most part become forgotten by people by the time they are in their 20's (Mrs who? Did I have her? Oh yea, I forgot.). That is the job of mom and/or dad, or mom and/or mom or dad and/or dad. Family structure has nothing to do with it either, single moms and dads have been around for millennia too with well raised children that have been some of the people of note in history. What has everything to do with it is "well raised children".


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

I tend to put a lot of it down to respect, or the lack thereof. I was taught it. Todays youth seem to demand it and yet many don't give it.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> There is a big bloody red herring here. This riot had nothing to do with teaching. It's about a huge bunch of drunks who have seen this before and the mob mentality takes over. "I can do this too, Diyaaaaah!"


But what is the root of the problem? Clearly the forum feels that the schooling system and parents are producing a generation of kids who have no respect for anything. Maybe we need to fix it.........


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> But what is the root of the problem? Clearly the forum feels that the schooling system and parents are producing a generation of kids who have no respect for anything. Maybe we need to fix it.........


 You have left out part of the system that is at least as important... TV, the Internet, Social Media. All that is controlled by corporations that make billions selling these services and technologies. Anyone who believes the school system and parents are to blame for this without considering the massive influence and power of the Media and Entertainment Corporations really needs to rethink things.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> You have left out part of the system that is at least as important... TV, the Internet, Social Media. All that is controlled by corporations that make billions selling these services and technologies. Anyone who believes the school system and parents are to blame for this without considering the massive influence and power of the Media and Entertainment Corporations really needs to rethink things.


Well then I need to rethink things because I dont believe we are all just a bunch of morons who will do what the tv tells us to do. Maybe you would like all entertainment put through a committe to determine if it is acceptable or not? Didnt the PMRC and other groups try that?..............


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Accept2 said:


> Well then I need to rethink things because I dont believe we are all just a bunch of morons who will do what the tv tells us to do. Maybe you would like all entertainment put through a committe to determine if it is acceptable or not? Didnt the PMRC and other groups try that?..............


Nobody said the kids were morons, but they are easy to influence. Media of all kinds asserts a major influence on the way children think, the things they consume, and their ethical/moral compass. Advertising is very sophisticated and targets the young because they have less life experience and lower critical thinking skills than adults. Early influences tend to be lasting ones as well, that's why soft drink commercials target the very young. If you need to blame "society" or find a reason outside of the moment that was that alcohol fueled riot, media is a better target. It is well established that young people who are exposed to a lot of media tend to have a lot of misperceptions/misconceptions about reality and how society works, tend to be desensitized to violence and tend to act out violence they have witnessed. (Google the Bobo doll experiments for an early example) To blame teachers or education administrators (or just to blanket label them all hippies when they all make 100 000 dollars a year) for a riot is patently ridiculous. Teachers and administrators work to promote pro-social values, they are the people in this world who get young people to abide by social customs when the rest of their influences pushes them into selfish values.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

LOL I find people that grew up on Barney and Tellatubbies are a lot meaner and nastier than people that grew up on Rockford Files and Magnum PI.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Nobody said the kids were morons, but they are easy to influence. Media of all kinds asserts a major influence on the way children think, the things they consume, and their ethical/moral compass. Advertising is very sophisticated and targets the young because they have less life experience and lower critical thinking skills than adults. Early influences tend to be lasting ones as well, that's why soft drink commercials target the very young. If you need to blame "society" or find a reason outside of the moment that was that alcohol fueled riot, media is a better target. It is well established that young people who are exposed to a lot of media tend to have a lot of misperceptions/misconceptions about reality and how society works, tend to be desensitized to violence and tend to act out violence they have witnessed. (Google the Bobo doll experiments for an early example) To blame teachers or education administrators (or just to blanket label them all hippies when they all make 100 000 dollars a year) for a riot is patently ridiculous. Teachers and administrators work to promote pro-social values, they are the people in this world who get young people to abide by social customs when the rest of their influences pushes them into selfish values.


As to advertising, I would love to hear from our Quebec members where it is illegal to target advertising to people 12 and under.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Well then I need to rethink things because I dont believe we are all just a bunch of morons who will do what the tv tells us to do. Maybe you would like all entertainment put through a committe to determine if it is acceptable or not? Didnt the PMRC and other groups try that?..............


I really have no idea how you came to than conclusion. Sounds like something Harper's magical spin doctors would come up with.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

It's clearly a far wider reaching problem then just the education system. It's a whole bunch of stuff and it's mostly bad. Absent parents and parents that are far to lenient around the house are more to blame. Kids today think they have far more rights and a say on what goes on around the house then they actually do. Marnie's kids found that out when they moved in here with me a year or so ago. The boy turned 18 a few months back and figured that gave him full decision making rights on what he was going to do around here and when. To coin a phrase he likes to use. " ah... False"


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

I think that people have to remember that drinking has changed quite a bit too. In the last 20yrs, between drinking trends and marketing of shooters, cold shots and high alcohol content drinks has changed things from having a couple of drinks to "powerdrinking " or getting blotto as fast as possible. I suspect that being a " drinking based holiday i.e St Patty's day " had a lot to do with the general condition if the rioters. 

It was never my vision of drinking to take a funnel and hose and pour down 2 or three beers... but then again my father died of alcohol poisoning when I was an early teen. That has always stuck with me.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

About time I chimed in.

There are around 3-4 principle tasks that youth between, say, 14 and 24 need to accomplish, some kids with greater efficiency than others. One is certainly a sense of self and identity; knowing who you are and what you want/need, apart from what everyone else tells you about yourself. A second is the capacity for intimacy, and being emotionally close to others, which also subsumes the art of measured self-disclosure, and of being able to read others feelings. 

A third, often-overlooked developmental task includes the self-management of affect, and learning to separate how you feel from the dry factual information at hand. I happen to take the stance that this particular developmental challange is probably one of the harder ones to master for some people, and a great many never really master it for the duration of their lives, making bad choice after bad choice. The inability to manage affective information (and how you feel or feel about something at the moment IS simply information to be processed and incorporated into decision-making, like any other kind) lies at the heart of a lot of things. Indeed, the greater propensity for people that age to both engage in risky behaviour AND be highly risk averse in many contexts ("my parents will kill me", "my friends will laugh at me") reflects the common element of being too influenced by the emotion one feels at the moment and placing drier cognitive information at a lower rank. Teens and youth have higher suicidal behaviour largely BECAUSE their emotions more easily persuade them that they have absolutely "no way out" and are "doomed". Though I imagine he doesn't get into it, because he's not a developmental type, Dan Kahneman's ideas on thinking fast and slow are probably germane here, with much of the behaviour of young people a reflection of gradually learning how to think slow, instead of being led by fast thinking.

If you think about it, when one sees a person of that age group whom you consider to be "mature", your judgment of their maturity is not so much a product of the various responsibilities they have taken on (though I imagine that come along with it), but rather their capacity to separate emotion/affective information from other sources. The mature youth is able to say "I'd really like to do that, but it wouldn't be smart/appropriate/safe at this time (or at any time)", or "I really don't like that person, but I can see they have a point". They have better impulse management - the very crux of what happened in London and in Vancouver and anywhere you get young people infused with emotion and alcohol - largely because they are not as easily persuaded by how they feel. That is not to say they have no feelings; they just don't take their lead from those feelings the moment they pop into consciousness.

So, I see a sort of reciprocal effect here. Young people engage in alcohol over-consumption because they can't manage their impulses and the affective information that directs those impulses, and the alcohol consumed simply gives the emoptional "fast thinking" even more weight. Throw peers into the mix, and it is a deadly combination. I would wager to say that VERY few of those same indiviuals would have done what they did had their not been either alcohol overconsumption OR a bunch of their friends present. The same people in isolation but every bit as wasted would have behaved differently.

And as for who runs education, it is run by far too _many_ parties. We're talking about so many cooks in the kitchen that they are stabbing each other and beating each other senseless with rolling pins. Some are undoubtedly "hippies", some are other sorts of idealogues, some are policy wonks a little too detached from reality, and some are just basically angry about taxes. I could go on ad nauseum about the negative impact that the increase in adolescent employment since the late 1970's has had on education, rampant irresponsible consumerism, and frayed family roles, but I won't.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Thank you Mark, I think that was what I meant by being able to "self parent". 

One day, your children will be on their own. It could be like how I went, moving out to college at 18 or it could be like my friend Megan who's father died of a heart attack the day after her 16th birthday. No matter how or when that day arrives, your kids do need to have that self regulation/parenting/emotional consanguinity skill in hand.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I remember when I first started teaching Adolescent Development, about 15 years ago. I had a teaching assistant who was a bit older than myself. She had a wise saying that "you start raising an adolescent the day they're born". I used to supplement that in class noting that, they will be larger and probably stronger than you, better informed than you, and financially non-dependent on you. You'll have basically two things you can use to shape their behaviour at that point: "I'm proud of you", and "I'm disappointed". And those two phrases will count for nothing unless you've laid the groundwork extensively, and early.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I had the privilege of being 21 for 2 1/2 months when the drinking age was lowered to 18. I well remember drinking in early 70s,... well not the specifics, but I have no doubt the amount consumed was no less than it is today. I learned many things about over consumption, first hand, aside from the usual mega hangover. The first one is never try to match a guy from Fiji beer for beer, even if he offers to pay if you do - that results in a mega, ultra, super three day hangover. Another, is never try to walk 3 km home in the middle of February - got rescued there. The only difference between the drunken stupidity then and now, is the level of violence and destruction. The one thing I do know is that hippies were not responsible for violence now, though I have no doubt that conservative hippy-haters will find a way to spin that into a way finding them at fault for today's voilence.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Nobody said the kids were morons...


Well, actually, I did. LOL! Stand by it too. Morons inasmuch as they exhibited an extreme lack and judgment and self control. These people had the means and opportunity to behave badly and did so without concern (at the time) for being caught. I'm sure they will admit that they were wrong, after the fact. I'm also sure that they were taught by professional teachers that this kind of behavior is wrong. I'm also sure that most of them received similar instruction on the home front. However, it seems abundantly clear that in spite of what they know they chose to do otherwise. Not everyone is willing to take the risk, and I suspect the ones that do are the ones who have trouble with the concept of repercussions. For that, parents, education systems (as opposed to just teachers), societal norms, and the law, are to blame. I wouldn't go so far as to say any of this excuses them, they still knew they were wrong.

As for the strap, a long heavy rubber thing, I got it twice in the late '60s. Once for entering the school through the girls' door (segregated entrances), and once for something I think I said when I was bullied by the principal. I couldn't win. The principal was a brutal man and he had a henchman on staff who liked to administer the strap as well. I was a good and well behaved student who they picked out to set an example. After the second strapping there was a conversation between my father and the principal that basically had the principal kissing my ass for the last couple of years of elementary school. What I would give to know what was said in that meeting! (Dad was a clergyman who sometimes taught religious ed, and a war vet who often did the Remembrance Day stuff at my school. If my guess is right, he called the jerks out, in a manner of speaking. I wouldn't have wanted to cross him, having learned about repercussions by then.)

Peace, Mooh.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

London got off easy. In Ottawa (well, the perimeter of Ottawa, basically), a young mom was walking back from a St. Paddy's Day event on Saturday night with 5 friends and someone else driving back from what one can only assume were similar festivities struck and killed her with his vehicle, then ran off, leaving two 5 year-old boys momless.

The Fanshawe kids should be ashamed, but at least they only destroyed property and reputations, not lives.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

mhammer said:


> London got off easy. In Ottawa (well, the perimeter of Ottawa, basically), a young mom was walking back from a St. Paddy's Day event on Saturday night with 5 friends and someone else driving back from what one can only assume were similar festivities struck and killed her with his vehicle, then ran off, leaving two 5 year-old boys momless.
> 
> The Fanshawe kids should be ashamed, but at least they only destroyed property and reputations, not lives.


The fact that nobody was seriously hurt or killed I would put down as pure luck really. Someone could easily have been killed. The gas tank blew on that van, some kid took a beer bottle to the eye. So more luck than anything


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

I wouldn't begin to compare the two. Drunken accident vs drunken violent mindless mob. The outcome in London could have been significantly worse but very fortunately was not. The hit and run was equally reprehensible with a much more seroious outcome but the only two things the events likely had in common was the date and alcohol. Assuming the Ottawa incident was alcohol related and not just some idiot texting while driving.



mhammer said:


> London got off easy. In Ottawa (well, the perimeter of Ottawa, basically), a young mom was walking back from a St. Paddy's Day event on Saturday night with 5 friends and someone else driving back from what one can only assume were similar festivities struck and killed her with his vehicle, then ran off, leaving two 5 year-old boys momless.
> 
> The Fanshawe kids should be ashamed, but at least they only destroyed property and reputations, not lives.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Chances are pretty good he was DUI and not texting. He didn't drive off, he ran off, with the car smashed into a tree. Turns out the driver, and the woman who was killed were celebrating St. Paddy's at the same establishment and actually knew each other.
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/charged+deadly+Constance/6324573/story.html


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Well that's just terribly sad. Glad he turned himself in but I suspect he had little choice. I've lost a best friend and also an uncle thanks to DUI. Probably lucky to still be here myself in retrospect. We had a pretty cavalier attitude towards it in the 60's and early 70's.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

mhammer said:


> I remember when I first started teaching Adolescent Development, about 15 years ago. I had a teaching assistant who was a bit older than myself. She had a wise saying that "you start raising an adolescent the day they're born". I used to supplement that in class noting that, they will be larger and probably stronger than you, better informed than you, and financially non-dependent on you. You'll have basically two things you can use to shape their behaviour at that point: "I'm proud of you", and "I'm disappointed". And those two phrases will count for nothing unless you've laid the groundwork extensively, and early.


Very true, it's how I raise my 2 kids.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news... RSS/Atom&utm_source=Home&utm_content=2373694

Interesting article. Some interesting comments and observations there. Student ghettos happen when there is an absence/shortage of on campus housing or on campus housing that is way way way over priced for what it offers (why pay 10 grand a year when you can pay 4 grand for the same thing group renting a house) and has lead to the issues as spelled out in this article in many other cities. Hamilton's McMaster built a LOT of on campus housing following similar festivities there.




> Throughout the afternoon, the crowd kept growing, until more than 1,000 people filled the streets. Police arrived, hoping to control the festivities. As evening fell, officers held riot shields and advanced on revellers. Those who were in the way, eyewitnesses said, were pushed to the ground.
> 
> 
> The crowd fought back, pelting police with beer bottles and wrenching two-by-fours from fences to smash cruisers. Officers retreated, with revellers chasing their cars.
> ...


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Conveniently left out the fact that a "brush fire" started by some of the mob was what initially brought the fire department to the scene. The firemen were the first to get pelted with beer bottles etc and then they called in the police. The CTV truck was flipped and burned after the police had left the scene failing to bring any kind of order and thinking that it would only get worse if they stuck around. Language like "the crowd fought back" is laughable.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

>.< yes, sounds more and more that the police really dropped the ball on this one. However, a fire-hose is a good means of pushing back a crowd and firemen typically will go through things to get to the fire (try parking in front of a fire hydrant), maybe they should have turned the hoses on the kids.

Trying to zone students out of their houses though is a poor solution. There really have been similar 'hot spots' in Hamilton and yes it came down to available campus housing at an affordable cost. McMaster built like mad and since then there have been almost no issues with students at all (or that have made area news at least). As to the booze situation Mohawk College changed its policies on students and the bar, including the bar hours and that seemed to fix them up pretty good too.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Not to make light of the situation, but since this is a music forum and everytime I see the title of this thread I think of this song:

[video=youtube;YojOTrjQ9WM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YojOTrjQ9WM[/video]


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

One wise comment said the reason for things like this is because they "have come to be past all moral sense". When we see things like this, is it not hard to disagree?


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

No argument from me.




Steadfastly said:


> One wise comment said the reason for things like this is because they "have come to be past all moral sense". When we see things like this, is it not hard to disagree?


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> One wise comment said the reason for things like this is because they "have come to be past all moral sense". When we see things like this, is it not hard to disagree?


True that.

Peace, Mooh.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i have noticed that practically every news item is veritable proof that it is the end of times, the sky is falling, society is in decline, we are all headed down that slippery slope, or to heck in something called a "handbasket". 

and why not? it generates ad revenues, and people are stupid enough to buy into it.

probably no different a hundred years ago...


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

More to follow



> The names and charges are as follows:
> 
> 
> Jacob Biggelar, 19, is charged with: being a member of an unlawful assembly
> ...


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I might add to this story by mentioning the fact of this "Fleming Drive Ghetto" or so they are calling it. I am not familiar with it nor London really, other than driving through it a thousand times.

But I can speak as a life long resident of the Niagara Region and specifically, Thorold. We are known as the Brock Housing Project here. My first home was a semi in a fairly new subdivision known as Confederation Heights. We purchased that place in I think 1986 or 1987. It was on a quiet little Crescent and it was really nice. About 2 years after we were there the semi across the street was turned into a student residence. The first thing you have to know about these places is that they are bought up by investors for the sole purpose of jamming as many people into them as possible at $500-$700 per person a month. You do the math. They charge them for a full year as well, there or not. 

We sold before it got out of control, around 1993. Sometimes if I am up that way I take a drive by the old place and I can't put into words what that street looks like today. Nothing I could print here would give you a clear understanding of what has been done to those homes and the streets. If I told you, you would call me a liar or that I was exaggerating. A bombed out war zone is the closest I could come to in description. The place I owned looks like a dilapidated shooting gallery. The landlords could care less. Every year at the end of school they go in with a few barrels of plaster and patch the holes in the walls and its ready for another year. I am not exaggerating. 

Last summer I helped out with the census and was on the ground in those hoods for a few months. It was shocking, positively shocking. We have a MAJOR problem here in this city and the politicians do nothing. Slowly, year by year they are moving out and across the more established areas of the city. Our population here is aging. The street that I live on now the avg age is about 65 so we are going to have a bunch of turnover in the next 5-10 years and I am terrified of whats going to happen.

So if this Fleming is anything like what we have here they need to take a flamethrower to it and wipe it from the face of the planet.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Scott, haveing seen Hamilton's Westdale community before and after I do not think it at all unreasonable to say to Universities and Colleges "you may only enrol as many undergraduate students as you have campus housing for". I think Universities and Colleges look at these kids as cash cows, signing them up left and right and then running classes day and night to get them all in and then they spend no time whatsoever on dealing with the social issues so many young people all at once on their own in one spot creates. To me that is eating the cake and I think they simply should not be allowed to operate in that manner.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

keeperofthegood said:


> Scott, haveing seen Hamilton's Westdale community before and after I do not think it at all unreasonable to say to Universities and Colleges "you may only enrol as many undergraduate students as you have campus housing for". I think Universities and Colleges look at these kids as cash cows, signing them up left and right and then running classes day and night to get them all in and then they spend no time whatsoever on dealing with the social issues so many young people all at once on their own in one spot creates. To me that is eating the cake and I think they simply should not be allowed to operate in that manner.


I would agree. It's all about the money. Brock's enrollment has steadily grown for years yet the available student housing on campus is totally inadequate. Estimates are anywhere between 6000 to 10,000 living off campus in these places. The city of thorold is only 18,000 itself

The enrollment for 2010 was over 17,000 and the campus housing capacity is 2389.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

david henman said:


> ...i have noticed that practically every news item is veritable proof that it is the end of times, the sky is falling, society is in decline, we are all headed down that slippery slope, or to heck in something called a "handbasket".
> 
> and why not? it generates ad revenues, and people are stupid enough to buy into it.
> 
> probably no different a hundred years ago...


No, Dave, it wasn't like that when we were kids (we're about the same age). There was less reporting, of course, but we still had radio and newspapers and there was nothing like the news we see now and what we had when we were kids or 100 years ago. Here are some comments early in the 1900's before WW1.

“The spring and summer of 1914 were marked in Europe by an exceptional tranquillity,” wrote British statesman Winston Churchill. According to Winston Churchill, a member of Britain’s 1914 cabinet: “Germany seemed with us, to be set on peace.”


People were generally optimistic about the future. “The world of 1914 was full of hope and promise,” said Louis Snyder in his book World War I.

“The war,” explains Professor Eksteins, “assaulted moral standards.” Men on both sides had been taught by religious, military, and political leaders to view mass killing as morally good. This, admits Eksteins, “was merely the crudest of assaults on a moral order that claimed to be rooted in a Judaeo-Christian ethic.” “On the Western Front,” he adds, “brothels were soon regular appurtenances of base camps . . . On the home front morality loosened its corsets and belts too. Prostitution increased strikingly.”

Historian Barbara Tuchman observes: “Illusions and enthusiasms possible up to 1914 slowly sank beneath a sea of massive disillusionment.”


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