# 1) Modeling amps versus 2) Clean amp + effects pedals



## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

In the past 6 months, I've bought & returned 2 well known modeling amps. I think I'm through with that route, it just doesn't work for me.

My intention is to explore the second method of tone chasing: clean amp + pedals (no computers at this time). I've researched the clean-amp threads here but the suggestions are 5 to 10 years old and some of these amps aren't available anymore. Or maybe someone can point me to a thread I've overlooked.

Any current suggestions for a clean all-tube amp? Lunchbox preferred but not mandatory (cab top is only 18" wide). 6V6 or 6L6 preferred but also not mandatory. Budget is no more than $1K. I'm entertaining the PRS MT-15 (but it's Chinese made, grrrr). I know it's got a heavy gain channel, but I've played through its clean channel and it's impressive.

Lonely cab seeking non-Chinese head (ahem).


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

On of my friend, a very good guitar player, never use modeling amps. He tried fews amps Mesa Boogie, Fender..
Since 2-3 years he own a Marshall DSL15C with some effect pedals.

The new model is a DSL20CR. $850 at L&M
Ok it is not 6V6 or 6L6 but sound is great to my ears and I'm a Fender anf Traynor guy.

By the way, a distortion pedal he use and ( we ) like very much is a Fender Distortion Pugilist. A very good deal IMO


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

If you are looking for a head, why not a second hand Traynor head ? 
After a good check up by a amp tech, these amps are good for all of your life and more.


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

Write your location in your profile.
In North York , Ont;








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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

I'd suggest the Marshall Origin 20 - believe it or not. Made in Vietnam, great effects loop, hardish to find.

Marshall Origin 20C Review


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

BlueRocker said:


> I'd suggest the Marshall Origin 20 - believe it or not. Made in Vietnam, great effects loop, hardish to find.
> 
> Marshall Origin 20C Review



I don't know. OP looking for a clean amp ....

Read on your link:

*There is some clean headroom, but not much, *and the output valves will contribute an element of crunch if you crank the master level; as with any master-volume Marshall, balancing this with the preamp gain is key to controlling the overdrive’s intensity and the amp’s overall meatiness. This isn’t a metal amplifier by any means but it does get plenty feisty enough for the rest of us – and the output switch does a fine job of scaling things down without getting all limp and fizzy. Half a watt is never going to sound as engaging as 20 watts or even three watts, but for late-night practice in the same room as a sleeping cat, it’s more than acceptable.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

For a clean amp with pedals, generally people go for high headroom. 50W+ ,100W preferred. 

Sell the cab and buy a fender twin.


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

No need a so powerfull amp to have a good clean headroom.
And a Twin is a way toooooo heavy.


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## MetalTele79 (Jul 20, 2020)

You may want to consider doing what I just did. Pick up a power amplifier and use a variety of pedal or rack based preamps for your tone chasing. You may even find those modellers you returned work well through a poweramp into your 2x12 (make sure you turn off the cab sim block).


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## John123 (Jul 22, 2020)

Latole said:


> If you are looking for a head, why not a second hand Traynor head ?
> After a good check up by a amp tech, these amps are good for all of your life and more.


I definitely second this opinion. You can't go wrong with a Traynor!! Furthermore, it will only increase in value!!


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## Jalexander (Dec 31, 2020)

They’re wider than your cab, but two of the last affordable vintage Fenders are the black panel Bandmaster and the silver panel Bandmaster Reverb.

Sometimes on Reverb you’ll find a Princeton Reverb that has been converted into a head too.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Latole said:


> a second hand Traynor head





John123 said:


> You can't go wrong with a Traynor!!


I really like my Ironhorse (EL34).
There's the Darkhorse (6V6) as well.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Latole said:


> No need a so powerfull amp to have a good clean headroom.
> And a Twin is a way toooooo heavy.


Try a drri with a ts7. Now try a twin with a ts7.

Usually the point of using a clean amp with pedals is you dont want _any_ breakup from the amp. High headroom is how you get that.

OP didnt say if he plans on moving the amp. Get a twin. Hate the weight? Get the new tonemaster twin.

A twin is way too heavy _to you_.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

Latole said:


> I don't know. OP looking for a clean amp ....
> 
> Read on your link:
> 
> *There is some clean headroom, but not much, *and the output valves will contribute an element of crunch if you crank the master level; as with any master-volume Marshall, balancing this with the preamp gain is key to controlling the overdrive’s intensity and the amp’s overall meatiness. This isn’t a metal amplifier by any means but it does get plenty feisty enough for the rest of us – and the output switch does a fine job of scaling things down without getting all limp and fizzy. Half a watt is never going to sound as engaging as 20 watts or even three watts, but for late-night practice in the same room as a sleeping cat, it’s more than acceptable.


That was not my experience - I had one and found it had a lot of headroom. YMMV.


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## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)




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## Verne (Dec 29, 2018)

I love the clean from my Tubemeister 36. The crunch and lead channel are nice as well, but I generally play the clean most often. I got mine for $700 a few years back. EL84, but it's also switchable 36/18/5/0 with redbox out if you want silent recording. I run mine through a darkhouse 112 with the original greenback and it sounds awesome!!


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Peavey JSX. The amp is literally designed to NEVER break up on the clean channel, regardless of volume. Satriani gets all of his gain from pedals, and Peavey modified the Triple XXX (the XXX XXX XXX?) design so that it couldn't break up, even with 120 watts cranked. They did heads and combos.

FWIW, Zakk Wylde used to run JCM 800s with 150 watt EV speakers so that amp couldn't break up, then put a Boss Super Overdrive in front.

EDIT -- Sorry, missed the lunchbox requirement. EVH LBX would seem to fit the description, and they can be had inexpensively used. 

I will also add that the PRS you mentioned sounds pretty damned ridiculous though an EVH 2x12. Like, "honey, please forgive me but I just bought a new rig" ridiculous.

I wonder why pedals though, when the TUBE overdrive on amps today is so wonderful.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Is it to play out or just at home play?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Rollin Hand said:


> Peavey JSX. The amp is literally designed to NEVER break up on the clean channel, regardless of volume. Satriani gets all of his gain from pedals, and Peavey modified the Triple XXX (the XXX XXX XXX?) design so that it couldn't break up, even with 120 watts cranked. They did heads and combos.
> 
> FWIW, Zakk Wylde used to run JCM 800s with 150 watt EV speakers so that amp couldn't break up, then put a Boss Super Overdrive in front.
> 
> ...


I owned a jsx and my stock lp studio broke up the clean channel. Ymmv.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Thanks all for your responses. This heat in my location is killing me, I've been off the computer.

I actually do own an older Fender Twin. I think it's a great amp, but those above who have commented it's heavy are spot on. And while I can connect the output to my cab, I don't want them married because the Traynor 2x12 is already heavy enough. Together they will dent floors! Looking for a head that stays w/ the cab, I want my Twin on its own.

I like the Tubemeister idea but didn't think of the 36, I was leaning towards the 18 but I think you're right - I need that headroom.

And correct, I'm really looking for no breakup at all, just a clean unencumbered guitar projection - I'll let my future pedals do all the dirty work. I like MetalTele79's idea of just a raw power amp, I saw that thread and was intrigued.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Peavey classic 400?

All the headroom you could ever want


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

tdotrob said:


> Peavey classic 400?
> 
> All the headroom you could ever want


Vht 2:90:2, mesa strategy 400, mesa mark coloseum.. Good times.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

I'm looking for a clean tube amp I can just go out and buy new - like right now. I don't want to wait & hunt & peck & bargain over a used amp.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

After owning around twenty various tube amps I've settled on a Quilter solid state amp. They play very much like a tube amp and have loads of headroom. I have a 101 Reverb head I bought used. It works well with every pedal I've tried but honestly I hardly ever use pedals with it. I can dial in tones from sparkling clean to a nice blues crunch with amp settings. They make a whole range of amps with slightly different voices. They don't have a lot of dealers in Canada so it's hard to find one to try.






Quilter Labs, LLC


Founded by Pat Quilter, Quilter Labs makes the world's finest instrument amplification and more!




www.quilterlabs.com


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## MetalTele79 (Jul 20, 2020)

If you want something you can pick up right now with no hunting get yourself an Orange Pedal Baby or Seymour Duncan Powestage 170/200 and they will stay nice and neutral so your effects can do the work. 

I saw Brant Bjork play live with a Catalinbread Dirty Little Secret into a Pedal Baby and I thought it sounded great.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

FatStrat2 said:


> I'm looking for a clean tube amp I can just go out and buy new - like right now. I don't want to wait & hunt & peck & bargain over a used amp.


Then walk into your local store and grab something lol.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

^ Hmm, not a useful post.

The Seymour Duncan sounds good, I'm going to look into that one - appreciate it, '79. I don't want anything rare that I have to chase down.


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## Seance (Jun 18, 2018)

FatStrat2 said:


> And correct, I'm really looking for no breakup at all, just a clean unencumbered guitar projection - I'll let my future pedals do all the dirty work.


Perhaps consider a solid state amp. 

The Orange CR120 is not a "lunchbox" amp head, but I'd imagine it would
pair pretty well with that Traynor 120watt cabinet.

For more "lunchbox" size solid state options you might look into Quilter.
They have lots of options from 200 to 25 watts.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

FatStrat2 said:


> ^ Hmm, not a useful post.
> 
> The Seymour Duncan sounds good, I'm going to look into that one - appreciate it, '79. I don't want anything rare that I have to chase down.


You said you want something today, not browse used ads, that's the fastest way. What did I miss?


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

^ I'm looking for new amp suggestions and real world experience by gifted and generous musicians - which I think this board has plenty of.

I'm tired of the hype on YouTube w/ companies just selling their goods, I want musicians truly happy with their purchases.

To help a bit more, I play lost of clean and lots of crunch, not really a blues player.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

You have had lots of good suggestions. Every major manufacturer has amps that do what you want and fit your price range. Take your guitar and a couple of pedals to a guitar store and try them until you find one that you like. They will all have a warranty so don’t worry about getting a lemon. They all have slightly different personalities but with pedals they can all sound however you want them to. Look for the one that has the features you want, i.e. on board reverb, tremelo, two channels, etc.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

Not a lot of tube amp head options sub $1000 and available in store.
Fender Bassbreaker
Orange Rocker 15
Marshall Origin
Vox AC15
EVH 5150 LBX
Laney Cub, Ironheart

If you're okay with a hybrid amp, I recommend the Victory Duchess. Slightly over your budget, but made in the UK. I have a V4 Countess that I use with a solid state power amp and it sounds great.

+1 on Quilter. Get one with the limiter control. It helps with the tube-like feel and clean sustain. I really dig my 101 Mini Reverb.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Excellent suggestions, Grab. I will look into. Sans LBX. I find the LBX isn't that clean though.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Latole said:


> I don't know. OP looking for a clean amp ....
> 
> Read on your link:
> 
> *There is some clean headroom, but not much, *and the output valves will contribute an element of crunch if you crank the master level; as with any master-volume Marshall, balancing this with the preamp gain is key to controlling the overdrive’s intensity and the amp’s overall meatiness. This isn’t a metal amplifier by any means but it does get plenty feisty enough for the rest of us – and the output switch does a fine job of scaling things down without getting all limp and fizzy. Half a watt is never going to sound as engaging as 20 watts or even three watts, but for late-night practice in the same room as a sleeping cat, it’s more than acceptable.


On the Marshal forum the consensus is that you can't get these things to break up and need pedals. Or maybe they were talking about the bigger Origin models.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

FatStrat2 said:


> Thanks all for your responses. This heat in my location is killing me, I've been off the computer.
> 
> I actually do own an older Fender Twin. I think it's a great amp, but those above who have commented it's heavy are spot on. And while I can connect the output to my cab, I don't want them married because the Traynor 2x12 is already heavy enough. Together they will dent floors! Looking for a head that stays w/ the cab, I want my Twin on its own.
> 
> ...



If you plan to play out then weight is an issue. If you plan to play at home stick that Twin in one spot, sell everything else, and use the money to buy pedals for the Twin.


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## DavidP (Mar 7, 2006)

As noted above, if solid state is an option, you should definitely look at the Quilter heads.


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

FatStrat2 said:


> ^ I'm looking for new amp suggestions and real world experience by gifted and generous musicians - which I think this board has plenty of.
> 
> I'm tired of the hype on YouTube w/ companies just selling their goods, I want musicians truly happy with their purchases.
> 
> To help a bit more, I play lost of clean and lots of crunch, not really a blues player.


Fender Princeton Reverb. 

I'd suggest "hunting" for a used silverface 70's model, but they aren't cheap anymore and you don't want to do that anyway. 

So go to the shop and get a re-issue. You could finance it even. 

It's probably right up your alley if you like clean and crunch, it's possibly the best amp of all time for someone who's playing at home or gigging pubs etc.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

colchar said:


> On the Marshal forum the consensus is that you can't get these things to break up and need pedals. Or maybe they were talking about the bigger Origin models.


I can confirm that for the Origin 20


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

What about a Traynor yba200? Should be plenty clean on guitar.

(Edit, or the newer and cheaper yba100)


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

I'm not sure where I can try those amps, haven't seen any Traynors around here. The shops I frequent only have the same stuff like Mesa, Fender, Marshall, etc.. I'm resolute that I won't be buying any amps I won't try first.



SmoggyTwinkles said:


> Fender Princeton Reverb...


I thought of that, it's a great suggestion - but I don't think that amp comes in a head. Otherwise, I think that's a top 5 idea. I'm determined to make my Traynor cabinet part of this new "clean amp/dirty pedal" path - and I'm not sure (yet) I want to use a combo as a head. I did that on & off with my Twin for a long time and I don't like it much.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

For a clean amp I always say Fender anything especially 40 watts plus


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Long and Mcquade?


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

2


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

FatStrat2 said:


> I'm not sure where I can try those amps, haven't seen any Traynors around here. The shops I frequent only have the same stuff like Mesa, Fender, Marshall, etc.. I'm resolute that I won't be buying any amps I won't try first.
> 
> 
> I thought of that, it's a great suggestion - but I don't think that amp comes in a head. Otherwise, I think that's a top 5 idea. I'm determined to make my Traynor cabinet part of this new "clean amp/dirty pedal" path - and I'm not sure (yet) I want to use a combo as a head. I did that on & off with my Twin for a long time and I don't like it much.


Well, here's an idea, can you afford an actual vintage Fender Princeton Reverb? I know I can't.

And if you get a re-issue, trust me as someone who has played vintage ones and the re-issue, close but no cigar. 

Yet it's easy to suggest a re-issue FPR because it's amazing. It's loud and clean, but can also be pushed, it just sits in that right area where you can do anything with it and not be too loud, or feel like you're lacking. And the reverb on it is amazing. 

So, why not look into building a head format Princeton Reverb circuit? Or pay the extra to have it done for you. 

Of the top of my head Allen Amps, Mojotone, but there's probably dozens of small companies that make Princeton Reverb circuits to meet your needs.


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

Another idea that you won't like, is a solid state amp specifically a Roland Jazz Chorus. 

The 120 is famous but it's also a back breaker like the Fender Twin.....but there are other Jazz Chorus models and I'm not experienced with them, I just know they're highly touted especially considering they're solid state, which is apparently the worst thing you can ever say. 

Just throwing ideas out there for you. 

What kind of pedals are you using out of curiosity?


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

SmoggyTwinkles said:


> Another idea that you won't like, is a solid state amp specifically a Roland Jazz Chorus.


I'd avoid the JC-22. I got one as a loaner when my YCV50 was in for repair, found it noisy.


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

And then I go and offer up another idea (I'm actually talking to myself at this point)

Boss Katana 50w. 

Rave reviews. Watched a ton of videos of it....can be had pretty cheap. Best of both worlds.....

But modeling vs the real deal? No contest for me. I've messed with virtual shit and it just doesn't come close to real life open air amplification and effects into that. It's emulation vs the real thing and the real thing is always going to be more satisfying.


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

BlueRocker said:


> I'd avoid the JC-22. I got one as a loaner when my YCV50 was in for repair, found it noisy.


I was really contemplating that when it came out and immediately started hearing complaints from people who got one so didn't even try it.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

FatStrat2 said:


> I'm not sure where I can try those amps, haven't seen any Traynors around here. The shops I frequent only have the same stuff like Mesa, Fender, Marshall, etc.. I'm resolute that I won't be buying any amps I won't try first.



No Long & McQuade stores within driving distance?


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

FatStrat2 said:


> I'm not sure where I can try those amps, haven't seen any Traynors around here. The shops I frequent only have the same stuff like Mesa, Fender, Marshall, etc.. I'm resolute that I won't be buying any amps I won't try first.
> 
> 
> I thought of that, it's a great suggestion - but I don't think that amp comes in a head. Otherwise, I think that's a top 5 idea. I'm determined to make my Traynor cabinet part of this new "clean amp/dirty pedal" path - and I'm not sure (yet) I want to use a combo as a head. I did that on & off with my Twin for a long time and I don't like it much.


I apologize in advance for coming completely out of left field....but...I had my 65 reissue converted into a head and cab. It occurs to me this might be a solution for you. If you want to use the Traynor cabinet, you can just have the Twin chassis turned into head and sell off the speakers.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

colchar said:


> No Long & McQuade stores within driving distance?


Yes, there are 2 close by, but they don't have amps like that. Whenever I ask about their stock, they always say the same thing: "We carry that, but we have to order it in - could take 3 to 6 weeks". So, I figure what's the point?



Okay Player said:


> I apologize in advance for coming completely out of left field....but...I had my 65 reissue converted into a head and cab...


Don't apologize, you da man! I think that's a good idea. But I may even buy another Fender and make the conversion on that one. Thanks so much for a great idea.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

I've been dicking around with the Fractal FM-3 lately. I bought it mainly to get a good recording for guitars and Bass through the DAW. For the last couple of years I've been messing around with an SM57 and a Sennheiser E906 in front of my Blackstar 212. I run both the BS 20W head and a Fender BJ 3 through them but I'm in a situation where I cannot crank it so I figured the FM3 would work. It does. Didn't take me long to get a number of good tones. I've also managed to cobble live and studio sounds thanks to some good advice I've gotten here and in other forums. In the end it depends on what you need it for I guess. My pedal board is staying put as well.

I have idears.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

FatStrat2 said:


> Yes, there are 2 close by, but they don't have amps like that. Whenever I ask about their stock, they always say the same thing: "We carry that, but we have to order it in - could take 3 to 6 weeks". So, I figure what's the point?


Two L&Ms and no Traynors? That can't be right.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

I've got golf this afternoon but I'll check out both L&Ms the day after. I don't ever remember seeing a Traynor head at L&M, possibly a combo or cabinet, but not a head.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Another thought -- Blackstar makes some nice stuff. I heard a Classic Vibe Tele through one once....admittedly the guy plauing was a factor but....mmm, that sounded nice.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

^ I thought about that, but still not sure about trendy amps like Blackstar. That's of course completely unfair and discriminatory, but I stand by my bias.

I'm still liking the idea of a Fender Princeton Reverb and converting it to a head. That's genius and I appreciate the suggestions & posts which lead to that.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

SmoggyTwinkles said:


> ...Boss Katana 50w.


I've already returned its big brother, the Katana 100 head. Sounds like ass at lower volumes - too 'electronic', no bass resonance, carboard-y. But beautiful sound & no complaints at mid to upper volumes (the kind that would get me evicted or arrested).


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

FatStrat2 said:


> I've got golf this afternoon but I'll check out both L&Ms the day after. I don't ever remember seeing a Traynor head at L&M, possibly a combo or cabinet, but not a head.


See what they have to rent, you might find something to try out without buying.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

^ Agreed, I've found some pretty nice stuff in the rental room over the years and all in great shape because if it's not returned that way, the player gets dinged.

Forgot it's Canada Day tomorrow, no L&M (sob). Stupid Canada Day, gear is more important...j/k


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## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

No one else has chimed in on these so....Ampeg.....all day long.


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

Guy was selling on FB a few days back....... (no affiliation) EDIT: he's in Hamilton ON.


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

Another amp you could try and track down is a THD Univalve. Pretty sure you can roll different tubes etc. 

Anyway, you want a Princeton style amp in head format, plenty of those out there, might not even be a Princeton circuit necessarily, but yeah, I'd just do some research and try to track something down like that. 

Basically, it sounds like you want something lower wattage, sounds full and clean at bedroom levels, aka a unicorn.....they're out there though. Good luck.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

+1 on the univalve recommendation really cool amps


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## MetalTele79 (Jul 20, 2020)

Again not tube but I've seen a thread on TGP about a cheap TC bass head being great as a poweramp for your effects/modellers.


TGP Thread


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

^ Like that idea, thank you - will look into. I did that many years ago and had forgotten. You guys are great for jogging my memory.



SmoggyTwinkles said:


> ...Basically, it sounds like you want something lower wattage, sounds full and clean at bedroom levels, aka a unicorn.....they're out there though. Good luck.


I wouldn't say what I'm looking for is unicorn, far from it. I don't want a rare amp I have to hunt for. Just like my other thread looking for a replacement LP, I don't want something rare - just off the shelf awesomeness is fine.

Most clean amps usually sound very good at low volumes to me, it's when the built-in crunch enters the equation is where it gets all sucky at low volumes (on many amps, not all). I'm going to let external pedals take care of that instead. I've already got the guitar + dirty amp setup already and I'm happy with it, now I want the clean amp + effects format next - nice to choose between the 2 type of tone.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Rollin Hand said:


> Another thought -- Blackstar makes some nice stuff. I heard a Classic Vibe Tele through one once....admittedly the guy plauing was a factor but....mmm, that sounded nice.





FatStrat2 said:


> ^ I thought about that, but still not sure about trendy amps like Blackstar. That's of course completely unfair and discriminatory, but I stand by my bias.
> 
> I'm still liking the idea of a Fender Princeton Reverb and converting it to a head. That's genius and I appreciate the suggestions & posts which lead to that.


If this is any help. I love the sound I get out of my BS-HT20 head but the there have been multiple issues with quality of work. They're cheaply manufactured units (Made in China) and apparently use the wave soldering method in the manufacturing process. I bought mine used off of Ebay a few years ago and still have random crackling issues when it's fired up for the first 20 minutes. I should be applauding it's sound but the tech issues outweigh that benefit. Their customer service leaves a lot to be desired as well apparently, though I've never used it. They go with the "go to the nearest qualified Blackstar dealer/tech" line. Just an honest heads up. I'd go with something else.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Thanks for the heads up, not surprising. You gotta ask yourself, will there be many Blackstars around 30 years from now? I think that's easy to answer.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

FatStrat2 said:


> I'm determined to make my Traynor cabinet part of this new "clean amp/dirty pedal" path


May I ask why? Seeing your initial post about being dissatisfied with a number of options already, I wonder if it is the speaker cab you are actually unhappy with. Does it still have the original speakers? With it being the last thing in your whole signal chain, it arguably makes for 50% of your overall tone. If the cabinet is a significant contributing factor to the sound you are not liking, it's possible that no amp will make the cabinet sound like you want it to.

One way to know for sure is to plug in into your Twin, and then you can determine if the cab *can *sound like you want.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

^ Thanks for your input. Appreciate it.

My dissatisfaction comes from those 2 modeling amps at low volume - not really low, reduced volume is what I should be writing. I have several cabinets and they didn't work with any of them. I wasted an entire day for each amp trying to get them to work, they both worked well at much louder volumes in my parking garage and at the shop where I bought them.

My Traynor 2x12 has been a star. I've plugged in my 2 Fenders along with another Marshall into that cab and it has very nice sound projection, resonant bottom end, good crunch dynamics and a bright presence too. The fatness of its bottom construction really bring out the bass, I'm quite happy with it. I've tried it with multiple amps. It even sounds great with my Fender Frontman 25R, an underrated amp which also has a speaker out (rare for such a small amp).

That's why I want the Traynor as part of a team with a good clean head. I'm tired of using my combos (including my Twin) to 'feed' it, the Traynor deserves its own meal.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

FYI: the 2 modeling amps were a Fender Superchamp X2 head and a Boss Katana 100 head. Great amps, but not at reduced volume.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

FatStrat2 said:


> FYI: the 2 modeling amps were a Fender Superchamp X2 head and a Boss Katana 100 head. Great amps, but not at reduced volume.


I may be in the minority but I had a Katana Artist (100 watt) and hated it - could not get that digital sound out of my ears. People rave about the Katanas, but I don't get what the fuss is about. And I always thought the Superchamp sounded like ass.


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## danielSunn0))) (Dec 28, 2015)

Another great fly-rig ready amp could be the BluGuitar Amp1. I had the Iridium edition for a while, which is the most modern metal version, so if high gain isn't your bag then you can save money getting one of the older models (standard & mercury) on the used market for a good price. Regardless, all of the versions seem to have an impressive clean channel that worked well with gain/boost/fuzz/etc... Plus it was every bit as loud as most 100watt amps too, but with a nice low volume thing. 



DavidP said:


> As noted above, if solid state is an option, you should definitely look at the Quilter heads.


I was actually considering grabbing up a Quilter Overdrive 202. They seem like a pretty cool pedal and I like the form-factor.


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## Warren Gibson (Jun 9, 2018)

FatStrat2 said:


> In the past 6 months, I've bought & returned 2 well known modeling amps. I think I'm through with that route, it just doesn't work for me.
> 
> My intention is to explore the second method of tone chasing: clean amp + pedals (no computers at this time). I've researched the clean-amp threads here but the suggestions are 5 to 10 years old and some of these amps aren't available anymore. Or maybe someone can point me to a thread I've overlooked.
> 
> ...


Your price point makes it difficult but i have been using REVV amps for a few years now and love them. I recently traded a REVV Dynamis 7-40 and 2x12 matching cab for their new G20 with Two notes torpedo built in and incredible cleans but they are about 1700


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

The Vox AC15 Custom tube amplifier head


The VOX AC15 is the amp that started it all. Boasting both a Normal and Top Boost channel, this EL84 driven workhorse delivers authentic British tone.




voxamps.com





How about that?


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

^ Hmm, I think I like that, thanks. Why can't I find these things? You guys are good. I think they're flying under or over my radar.

Going to go to L&M soon, hopefully they won't have to 'order in' this one. If I get it though, it's going to overhang my cabinet.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

BGood said:


> View attachment 371887
> 
> 
> View attachment 371888​


I just love this!!! Amazing.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

^ Yes, thanks for reposting that from BGood. And it's got 6V6 tubes too, like it...a lot. I'd prefer all clean, but they seem to be quite expensive and not as popular.


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

FatStrat2 said:


> ^ Hmm, I think I like that, thanks. Why can't I find these things? You guys are good. I think they're flying under or over my radar.
> 
> Going to go to L&M soon, hopefully they won't have to 'order in' this one. If I get it though, it's going to overhang my cabinet.
> 
> View attachment 372096


(EDIT: Yeah pretty sure they are new products that release in September. Crap, I want the AC15C2 Twin combo. Really don't need another amp though.......)

Yeah.....already looked into that.....it's out of stock on the L&M website and not expected back until September.

And yeah, I'm not sure why an AC15 head is this big. The combo is pretty small.

I guess this a new thing, but the way you're describing what you're after, and hey it's hard to know what someone else is hearing and wants, but I immediately thought "Vox" when you corrected me that it wasn't the lower volume clean tones you were after, but the lower volume "crunch" well, that sounds like an AC15 to me, yet they are still very loud amps, so I see this thing and you can change the wattage on it,

I kinda want one myself but I already have two amps I love, I'm definitely gonna try it out if I see it in stock at my local L&M.

Curious why it seems to be backordered, is it that good? Covid effecting the manufacturing? Is it simply that it hasn't even been released yet and was just announced?

Anyway, you'll find what you're after eventually.


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## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

FatStrat2 said:


> ^ Yes, thanks for reposting that from BGood. And it's got 6V6 tubes too, like it...a lot. I'd prefer all clean, but they seem to be quite expensive and not as popular.


I luckily got mine in a trade for a Traynor YCV20WR I had paid $400 for.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

A lot of stuff is back ordered I find lately - it's the strange economy and the post-recovery from COVID. That was almost like a small world war we had in the last 18 months, so we need to give things a chance. Unfortunately, IMO a huge recession is coming that will make 2007 look like a birthday party.

Getting back on topic, my choices so far (in no order) thanks to you guys are:

Princeton Reverb (head conversion w/ spring reverb)
Traynor Darkhorse (6V6)
Tubemeister 36 (EL84)
PRS MT-15 (6V6)
Seymour Duncan Powerstage
Quilter (solid state, willing to give it a chance)
Victory V4 (like to try this somewhere but fat chance on that)
Marshall ORI20H
Really appreciate this, guys. I've got a lot of homework to do now. It's the good kind of homework though!


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

FatStrat2 said:


> A lot of stuff is back ordered I find lately - it's the strange economy and the post-recovery from COVID. That was almost like a small world war we had in the last 18 months, so we need to give things a chance. Unfortunately, IMO a huge recession is coming that will make 2007 look like a birthday party.
> 
> Getting back on topic, my choices so far (in no order) thanks to you guys are:
> 
> ...


I'd really suggest going the Princeton Reverb route. 

I have a vintage 1979 Fender Deluxe Reverb, it's awesome. It ended my search for an amp just like that. 

They are notorious for LOVING pedals up front, especially OD, distortion etc. 

A pedal heads perfect platform basically. 

I do have one thing to ask, why are you so hung up on a head and using your big Traynor? because you CAN buy a Princeton Reverb RI and plug the "head" of the combo into that traynor (assuming the Ohms are good and all that) but you might go "wait, this thing sounds so good with this 10" speaker, who needs that giant cab?"

Just saying. But you gotta do you because there are no rules. 

I think you'd be over the moon with a Fender Princeton Reverb RI, and they should be right there at your local shop. Just need to decide if you want silverface or blackface. I like Silverface even though it's less desirable because I love the clean headroom on it, but most people want Blackface because they want to wank it like they're Stevie Ray Vaughn or something. That's not my thing but might be your thing. 

Damn, let me know if you actually grab a Princeton Reverb, I will be jealous and want to know all about it


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

^ Thanks for your input.

You have a point about my Traynor, maybe I shouldn't be so stubborn about having it as part of the equation. I was looking at it needing to be part of its own self-contained pair rather than always feeding off my combos. Maybe not though considering it's about the sound, not what I think the hardware should look like...(though I can still convert the Princeton to a head, heh heh)

Yes, I am leaning towards the Princeton Reverb. I think it's an amp that transcends style and is timeless. It's just a good all-around amp that can be used for a lot of styles & genres (sort of like my Fender Twin but not as specific). Maybe what I truly want is a Fender Twin head, its clean channel is impressive.

I'll definitely post what I buy, hopefully it will be in the next month or two. Appreciate the input, I've got work to do on this.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Anyone have experience with these kits? Are they similar to the real deal? Are they relatively straightforward to assemble? Do they sound good?


















Blackface Princeton Reverb® Style Amplifier Kit


Kit Build Difficulty:EasyDifficultIf this kit shows as out of stock please check here for more information.Please read our article 'Mojotone Amp Kit Building Primer' along with our amp kit disclaimer located in the Specs tab before buying this kit. The Blackface Princeton Reverb has been a...




www.mojotone.com


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

FatStrat2 said:


> Anyone have experience with these kits? Are they similar to the real deal? Are they relatively straightforward to assemble? Do they sound good?
> 
> View attachment 372147
> 
> ...


You know what's kind of hilarious? I got a new amp recently (Check out my thread, Garnet stencil amp project)

The dude that sold it to me for a song literally told me he was selling it because he got a Mojotone Princeton Reverb kit. 

The amp he sold me? I don't even need a Princeton Reverb anymore, and I'm about to re-house it in head format, and might actually do that today because I just got back from my brother in laws house and made the cuts. 

Keep an eye on it, and I say GO FOR IT with the Mojotone! 

Yes, it's absolutely going to sound awesome, easy build? Yeesh, do you make your own pedals or even cables? If not I'd say spend the extra to have it pre-built.


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

FatStrat2 said:


> Anyone have experience with these kits? Are they similar to the real deal? Are they relatively straightforward to assemble? Do they sound good?
> 
> View attachment 372147
> 
> ...







__





mojotone blackface princeton reverb - Google Search






www.google.com
 




google is your friend. I'd imagine it sounds incredible and better than the reissues. but there's probably tons of user reviews out there.


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

Is this your amp? Holy crap that sounds amazing to me.


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

Bias Shitting


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

It's been a tiring week involving lots of amp testing, but the good kind of tired.

Even though no one suggested it and it wasn't on the list, I stumbled across this 5/25. It has a very nice clean channel and was well within my budget, so I bought it. I was shooting for 6L6 tubes, but this amp does an excellent job w/ its EL84 tubes. Not a glassy clean like my Twin, but shimmery, bright and free of distortion - it will be perfect w/ pedals. A decent gain crunch too, and sounds good at low volumes. The 5 band EQ really helps shape the tone and the kicker for me was the genuine spring reverb, that's a no-brainer. My biggest complaint of lunchbox amps is lack of reverb - or if they have it, it's electronic.

I'd like to thank everyone for their comments in this thread. Case closed!


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

The Mesa Express 5:25 plus is the amp I enjoy playing the most. I have the combo and have the widebody closedback Mesa extension cab for a little more punch. It makes the guitars and pedals I own their impressive best for the variety of music that I try to play. The cleans are very, very good. It has very effective master volumes, stellar low volume tube tone, and punches beyond my expectations. I still have a few high wattage, big iron amps. I have sold off a dozen keepers since this amp came into my life. I am seriously considering selling off another dozen. I think that it is that good, for my purposes.


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## Petunia (Jul 17, 2021)

The Victory Duchess is a great amp, the Victories have the best low watt option (something like 44/ down to 7) I’ve ever heard.


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

I picked up a used Katana Mk1 100 combo 6 days ago.

I am thoroughly impressed with the clean, crunch, and acoustic channels. However, dialing in great sound consistently is not as immediately satisfying as one would hope. It depends on the guitar, and it depends on the panel settings. It has only been a few days, and my memory isn’t what it used to be. Being able to A/B the Katana vs. what amp you think sounds stellar, quickly reminds me that the Katana panel knobs of gain and volume need some readjustment.

Pedals, built in effects, whatever, I manage to get the Katana to sound every significant bit impressive as the other amp is, that I am comparing to. If you can’t get a Katana to sound great clean, it is user error.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

^ Agreed, just out of the box the Katana 100's clean section is ia no-brainer to setup. I found its semi-scooped clean tones typical Boss/Roland sounding to me, which I love. It's the low volume distortion side of that amp that had me in fits, disappointing (though I have no complaints at higher volumes).

Speaking of distortion, my brother passed along these pedals to me with the caveat that if I ever got bored of them, I would give them back to him and not sell them. So far, the undersize ammoon AP-15 pedal on the right has an admirable distortion effect. I really like it through the 5:25's clean channel, it's a gem. I like it enough that I'll probably give him back the other 2 pedals which I find not only lacking in top end, but don't have enough gain.

Useless fact of the day: that little AP-15 physically weighs more than either of the other 2.


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## metallica86 (Aug 17, 2009)

Sorry to dig up the thread, I was in similar situation and end up with Fender Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb + Line6 Podgo, I can get a good clean tone with less than a minute and all the effect and distortion from the Pod go, Very light weight rig and easy to transport, We just had a driveway jam and it sound great!


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

No apology needed, I welcome other suggestions - and yours is awesome. A Deluxe Reverb was definitely in my head before I went with the Express 5:25.

Yes, I've definitely learned over the past few months that a good tube amp with an external distortion pedal (whether in the effects loop or not) is really the way to go for reduced volume levels. A clean tone or even slightly dirty plus the distortion pedal is just great stuff. I know that sounds fundamental, but I've used the gain on the amps for most of my music playing and it's fine loud, but not low to medium volume.

Lately I've been playing through another pedal my brother sent me, probably his last shipping load as he's had yet another stroke (this one minor). Regardless, it's a cheap Chinese pedal I would have never bought myself, but I really like it. I find companies that use analog circuitry produce the nicest tones for me.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)




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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

I'm not one for modelling amps. I know they're getting pretty good.

For good clean pedal platforms I rec:

On a budget:
Traynor YVM-1
Garnet Rebel PA or Pro Vocal

Higher priced:
Sunn (tube era, any model with 3 digits or word as the model name; it'll only be a bit cheaper for a 3-4 vs 7 knob model - 7 knob having trem and reverb)
Mesa 50/50*
Marshall 9100*

Solid state (but good and cheap):
Peavey Mark IV
The higher model number Traynor TS series heads (e.g. TS-120) but these are now a thing and asking prices are getting stupid
Sunn Beta or Alpha series (difference is wattage)
Traynor Monoblock (yes a bass amp - pretty neutral if you want it to be)

Solid State but expensiver:
Gibson Lab Series L5

DIY if ya handy:
MusicPCB Tiny Giant Amp ( Tiny Giant Amp (PCB+components kit) — MusicPCB ) *
I just built an amp for a portable speaker using a Tea2025 chip (see attached pic), unlike the above it's stereo (bridging to mono for more power is probably possible but I didn't look into it); also unlike above runs off 9V pedal supply or battery.*

* all such marked suggestions are power amps only, pedals can work as a preamp (a boost/gain pedal and/or an EQ pedal), or you can get a dedicated separate preamp either pedal or rack. If ya handy I highly recommend the various preamp PCBs/kits from Aion (especially the L5, IVP, FA-1, and Echoplex preamp copies). Projects


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## Jeff MacKillican (Jan 23, 2021)

A surprisingly good cheap head is a fender super champ xd or x2 if you can find one. Clean channels make a good pedal platform, plus it has decent reverb and delay in a pinch. Hybrid Amp, but very close to all tube. You can also get it for under 500.
I have a handwired Princeton head built by a local guy in TO, is a fantastic pedal platform. A little pricey, but worth it!
Another cool idea is a Fender Pro Jr. You can run it through your cab, but also have it for portable use. Works great with pedals. Should be able to get one for 500 or less.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

I owned a Superchamp XD head for a couple of months and managed to get it for $350. Good but not great cleans. It sounded excellent at mid to high volume levels, but its gain was terrible at low volumes - so I sold it.

The Princeton head unit is something I've been salavating after for a while, but agreed it's pricey. On the flip side, you only have to buy it once.


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## Jeff MacKillican (Jan 23, 2021)

A guy named Brian Luckhurst built it for me, has also built 2 amps for my friend. Excellent amps!


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## Jalexander (Dec 31, 2020)

FatStrat2 said:


> I owned a Superchamp XD head for a couple of months and managed to get it for $350. Good but not great cleans. It sounded excellent at mid to high volume levels, but its gain was terrible at low volumes - so I sold it.
> 
> The Princeton head unit is something I've been salavating after for a while, but agreed it's pricey. On the flip side, you only have to buy it once.


I must say, I’ve never warmed to my PRRI. However, plug it into my 1x15 cab, and it’s great. The reverb isn’t as good as my 1968 Bandmaster Reverb (which I normally play through that cab), but all in all it’s a great sounding amp that way. Also good through my 1x12 cab. I’ve thought many times that I might want to just convert it to a head.


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## Jeff MacKillican (Jan 23, 2021)

Just got a mojotone based 5f1 clone this week, fabulous little amp with gorgeous tone. Hard to imagine a solid state matching it. 10 inch Wgs speaker and Derrick Bell tweed cab.


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

I use two Crate Power Blocks as a power amps , I have it set like an old Hiwatt amp head, to only project my DigiTech 2112 SGS ( has 2 12AX7 tubes, Control One pedalboard ), DigiTech RP-12 and DigiTech RP-1.
I created some nice replicas of my Fender, Marshall, Mesa Boogie, Carvin, Peavy and Rectified amps too.
The 2112 SGS for me, is still relavent to the point my Rack Eleven is going on Reverb for sale.


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