# Canadian Doctor’s Perfect Response to Employers ..



## Guest (Dec 13, 2014)

.. Who Require Doctor’s Notes for Sick Days

Some companies in Canada require their employees to get a note from their doctor when they take 
time off work for health reasons. This is obviously extremely annoying to those who have to go to 
the doctor instead of simply recuperating at home, but, as it turns out, it really bugs doctors, too.

And at least one has decided to do a little something about it.

Here is one Nova Scotian doctor’s form response that he uses as his “doctor’s note” whenever a 
company requires one…


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

I've always wondered what logic, if any, prompts an employer to ask for a doctor's note for an employee who calls in sick.

Not only does it encourage sick people to come in to work to spread their plague to everyone else in the office, but it projects a lack of respect for the employee which will be surely returned in kind.

If I was ever asked for a doctor's note, I'm not sure I wouldn't just hand in a note from myself that says "Fuck you. I'm too sick to get out of bed to go see a doctor. Please find a bag of my puke attached. If you are going to be rude enough to call me a liar to my face, I will respond with calling you an asshole to your face."

It's a good thing no one ever asked.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Only $30?
I've heard of three or more times that much.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

A doctors note is requested so goofs don't take advantage.

I dont put that behavior passed any one at any age.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

My wife is a supervisor at a popular Canadian coffee shop. Almost every week she is called in on at least one of her two days off to cover for someone who has called in sick. It's surprising how some of the same people are sick almost every Friday or the like. Unfortunately, you can't just fire people because they miss shifts. There has to be proper documentation, written warnings given etc.etc etc. or the employer suddenly finds himself being sued or getting a visit from the board of labour due to improper dismissal. There's got to be some sort of balance between a person's rights to be free from unlawful termination and an employers rights to see that people actually show up for their job.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Of course people will lie to their employers to take a sick day. They think there is nothing wrong with that because "everybody else does it". But I still say asking for a doctors note is pretty stupid in practical terms.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I have worked with some folks that would drag their dying carcass in so they would not miss a shift and ruin their record. Then, of course, a week later, all kinds of folks are calling in sick because of the nice present that person gave to bring home and spread throughout the family and everywhere they go (other jobs, schools, etc).

When I needed a doctors note, for any reason, it was $20 and I would be asked; "What do you want it to say? You are paying for it, so whatever you like". It didn't need the truth because it was a paid for statement. My doctor at the time used to shake his head, and would likely enjoy the response of the Dr. in the OP.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2014)

write your own.
signed 'Epstein's mother'.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Where I work we have a lot of people who phone in sick on Mondays and Fridays. Our policy is very strict, you take a day off and you get dinged a point unless you bring in a doctors note. Once you accumulate 7 points you get a one day suspension, 8 points 3 days, 9 points 5 days and 10 points termination. For the average worker it isn't a big deal and I've never got a doctors note for being sick. The policy is for the people who just don't feel like coming to work. Who don't care they have a responsibility to be at work. The small minority that ruin it for everyone. Getting a doctors note costs money, usually 20 bucks but it also forces the bad employee to think twice about phoning in sick once they accumulate enough points to be suspended. Maybe doctors should start writing notes stating the truth when asked for a note for work? Believe it or not most doctors will write a note stating a person unfit for work without really examining the person. You can be in and out in 5 minutes.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I'm mixed on this.
On the one hand I think it's typical of the superiority complex that Drs have in this country that he thinks he has the right and knowledge to tell an employer how to run their business, as if his little office is at all similar to a larger workplace, and the difficulty an employer can have with absenteeism and productivity.
but on the other hand, I do think for a liberal country like Canada, we frankly, work too much and should be entitled to more personal time off. 2 weeks minimum vacation is tantamount to slavery in this day and age. We've just gotten used to it.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

I think a better idea is to bring up excessive absenteeism during a regular performance review, letting the employee who is abusing their responsibilities know why they are not getting the promotions and raises. Any issues between employers and employees should be discussed to avoid festering problems becoming big problems on either side.

To me, it's an individual issue and good employees who actually do get sick with flu or have other health problems shouldn't have to spend $50 - $80 to produce a meaningless, counter-productive doctor's note for an untrusting employer.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

bluzfish said:


> I think a better idea is to bring up excessive absenteeism during a regular performance review, letting the employee who is abusing their responsibilities know why they are not getting the promotions and raises. Any issues between employers and employees should be discussed to avoid festering problems becoming big problems on either side.
> 
> To me, it's an individual issue and good employees who actually do get sick with flu or have other health problems shouldn't have to spend $50 - $80 to produce a meaningless, counter-productive doctor's note for an untrusting employer.


what is "excessive absenteeism"? How do you determine they are "abusing their responsibilities"? I would question the legality of that. It would be very reasonable to argue human rights discrimination (against someone with a disability/ illness) in such a case. An employer can't really question sick days and accuse them of abuse without proof. They actually can't even inquire into the nature of the illness. Employers have to be cogniscent of both labour law and human rights code.

thats the crux of the problem: there really is very little control/ recourse this an employer can legally do to minimize frivolous abuse of sick days...other than the sick note. So, they do it, with the hopes to make it as unappealing as possible. It sucks, but it's not all on the employer. Some of the blame for the situation has to fall on ourselves and/ or our co-workers.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

It's frustrating when individual rights always trump responsibilities. It's become a sick world. Maybe we should all get a doctor's note.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

bluzfish said:


> It's frustrating when individual rights always trump responsibilities. It's become a sick world. Maybe we should all get a doctor's note.


Ya. The thing is, there are some people with legitimate illnesses that lead to frequent absences. I used to work in a union shop, and one person there had legitimate crohns/ colitis and missed a lot of work....funny thing is, within 6 months of that (she was never particularly secretive about it and was also the union steward), 3 others suddenly came down with the same thing! I've never worked anywhere else that had such a high rate of crohns since


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

I think that is the crux of my point. Good employees with legitimate conditions and illnesses should be accommodated but without a mutual understanding through honest employer/employee discourse, the charlatans can't be separated from people with legitimate issues.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Where I worked in Manitoba, if you abused the system they'd give you a formal letter on your file.
After receiving that letter, any subsequent shift missed required a doctors note, I think that it would last for a year.
That's how you take care of a problem employee without a blanket policy that cocks everyone over.

I worked here for almost two years before missing a shift, I was required to bring in a doctors note.
That was long before I was aware of the Ontario labor laws, or the details in our CBA.
Ten days a year are allowed and there's wiggle room to nail problem employees through the labor law.
Over two consecutive days off require a doctors note, according to our CBA.

The first time I called in this year, in the middle of September, I was asked for "documentation".
I laughed at them and referred them to the CBA and labor laws.

It's idiotic, for the most part, the doctor is just taking your word for it and just rips you off a note to get rid of you.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

1) The requirement for a doctor's note varies in application. Where I work, we distinguish between certified and uncertified sick leave. People understand that if you wake up feeling like whatever is running out of the many bodily orifices and you just need a day to exhale and stop leaking, then fine, take a day here or there and then come back when you aren't sneezing all over your officemates. If it's going to be longer, then get a note to explain the length of the absence. If you think about it, if you happened to work in a building thathad technical problems which were making people sick, it would actually be a good idea to have someone monitoring those notes (coming from different examining physicians), and have notes to monitor.

2) Doctor notes is, in a way, and expression of mistrust between employer and employee. The employer wants some verification the employee isn't just goofing off, but by the same token, ther employee is more motivated to take advantage of the employer if they feel hard done by.

3) 40% of working days ARE Friday and MOnday. Sometimes people get sick on a FRiday because they've been holding out and holding out, and, given how they feel and how frequently nothing of any significance or imnpact happens on a Friday , they will take the Friday off in hopes that, with Saturday and Sunday added to that, they'll be right as rain and ready to deliver on Monday. It happens.

Conversely, people can call in sick on a Monday not because they were planning to make a long weekend out of it, but because they were expecting, and had, a "normal" weekend, and it got the better of them. It _could_ be because they got s**tfaced on Saturday night and still haven't recovered, but it could just as easily be because they had to clear the driveway Friday night so they could get the car out and drive the family members to all the different places they needed to be on Saturday, in addition to doing grocery and other shopping that needed doing, and it got the better of them. That also happens.

I've been asked to undertake statistical analysis of sick leave data and look for conspicuous patterns, and quite frankly I've not found anything that caught my eye. People can call in sick in order to prep and go for a job interview on a Tuesday or Thursday just as much as on a Monday or Friday. No compelling reason why days bordering on a weekend should be more suspect...unless there is poor labour relations to begin with.

4) I found the doctor's reason to be spot on. It's not good for the patient. It's not good for those in the waiting area. It's a waste of the doctor's time, and a burden on the system. But, I suppose for some employers it's simply too hard to hire people of good faith and maintain an honest relationship with them.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I have worked with some folks that would drag their dying carcass in so they would not miss a shift and ruin their record. Then, of course, a week later, all kinds of folks are calling in sick because of the nice present that person gave to bring home and spread throughout the family and everywhere they go (other jobs, schools, etc).


And then there are folks who consider their paid sick days to be a part of the vacation entitlement.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Which is precisely why I say it reflects the trust relationship between employee and employer. Employees have less compunction about doing what you describe if they feel they are hard done by their employer. Naturally, this assumes you hired right in the first place. If the employer pays little attention to who they hire, my guess is that they are unlikely to behave very conscienably towards their staff, which would simply end up bringing out the worst in them. As one of my former students put it so eloquently when we were discussing adolescents' earliest work experiences in class: "They didn't give a s**t about me, so why should I care about them?".

At my normal place of work, a new standard for office workplaces was implemented, that has people working in closer proximity, and has also removed walls and replaced them with waist-height barriers. I have it on good authority that the move was largely intended to reduce the real-estate footprint and reduce property-leasing costs. The same decision-makers that imposed this arrangement are also criticizing the "overuse" of sick leave by employees. Sadly, there is no way to document such use, but it would not surprise me in the least if there was an increase in sick day use resulting from coworkers instructing people to stay home until that cold clears up, because they do not wish to catch it. But like I say, there is no mechanism for documenting sick-day use for _preventative _purposes, as opposed to it's-a-miracle-I-could-even-wake-up-to-call-you-at-8AM-and-talk purposes.

If yu're interested, you shoud look up R.O.W.E. or "results-only-work-environment". Here, the objective is not face-time but accomplishing the task, on whatever timetable allows you to meet the specs on-time and on or under-budget. Admittedly, this can not function for every employer/enterprise, but it CAN work.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

JBFairthorne said:


> My wife is a supervisor at a popular Canadian coffee shop. Almost every week she is called in on at least one of her two days off to cover for someone who has called in sick. It's surprising how some of the same people are sick almost every Friday or the like. Unfortunately, you can't just fire people because they miss shifts. There has to be proper documentation, written warnings given etc.etc etc. or the employer suddenly finds himself being sued or getting a visit from the board of labour due to improper dismissal. There's got to be some sort of balance between a person's rights to be free from unlawful termination and an employers rights to see that people actually show up for their job.


Acutally you can fire anyone at any time on the spot... if they've been there for less than 3 months you have to pay to the end of the day you fire them, if they've been there more than 3 months and less than a year, you have to pay 1 week severance pay, two years = two weeks severance, and so on up to 10 years service...
That's it in a nutshell.

Warnings and notice etc are for employers who don't want to pay... you can fire an employee whose been with you for 10 months without giving them any severance, but you have to give a weeks notice.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

mhammer said:


> If yu're interested, you shoud look up R.O.W.E. or "results-only-work-environment". Here, the objective is not face-time but accomplishing the task, on whatever timetable allows you to meet the specs on-time and on or under-budget. Admittedly, this can not function for every employer/enterprise, but it CAN work.


That's how I handle things. I don't warn/penalize if the guys are late (I still think they are idiots, mind you); If they are sick, whatever. No such thing as too many holidays, if my company can still continue to run - which it always can. All I ask of them is that we get the job done within schedule, budget and without needlessly upsetting the clients. I'm a pretty easy guy to work for. There was one crackhead I gave a chance to and he did really well for about 3 years until a dumb-bitch cokehead messed up his life. I had to let _him_ go. That was a shame.

All of the above said, my only concern is that the guys could charge me for sexual harassment, but that's another story.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

adcandour said:


> All of the above said, my only concern is that the guys could charge me for sexual harassment, but that's another story.


That's messed up. Sexual harassment should be free.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

bluzfish said:


> That's messed up. Sexual harassment should be free.


hence my concern.


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

Diablo said:


> On the one hand I think it's typical of the superiority complex that Drs have in this country that he thinks he has the right and knowledge to tell an employer how to run their business


I think he has every right to tell the employer this if it is impacting on his ability to see legitimate patients. The employer's policies are affecting his ability to run his office.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Damn straight. Just how exactly does that employers policies and priorities take precedence over those of the physician, or ALL physicians. That's pretty arrogant, if you ask me. Medical offices are also places of business.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

If you are a doctor and call in sick, can you write your own note?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Way to go Doc!

With printers, computers and programs today, I would imagine some people just make up their own doctor's note.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

zdogma said:


> I think he has every right to tell the employer this if it is impacting on his ability to see legitimate patients. The employer's policies are affecting his ability to run his office.


Not really. Its not the employers fault the doctors office can't manage its own capacity. It goes both ways. Perhaps the employer should send a response back to the office advising him on how to better manage his time/clients? 
i know my former doctor worked a 3-4 day work week, so not hard to think of some efficiencies that could be had there.
lots of ppl don't go to Drs until it's too late, or they lived with an illness thinking it would cure itself when it could have been easily treated ie strep throat, bronchitis, etc so in some ways the employer is protecting its own interests, as well as doing a service for the employee by encouraging them to get a checkup when they feel ill. What if it's Ebola (facetious)? The employer prevented the employee from returning to work undiagnosed.

is there even a law that Drs have to provide note writing services? This Dr could simply post a sign in his office that he doesn't offer that service.

imo, the problem isn't the employer or the Dr, in most cases.
bottom line, our governments have done nothing for decades to meet the rising need for doctors. Canadian medical school admissions need to increase dramatically. Instead, all our governments do, is occasionally allow a few more immigrant doctors into the country from God knows where, while ensuring Canadians students continue to waste their money on useless BA's and B.Sc's before they seek out jobs in call centres and coffee shops.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The imposition and burden would still exist even if there were one doctor for every 20 Canadians.

A lot of doctors will charge a few for a note, although from the scanned note of the op, I imagine that varies by province.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

My doctor charges a minimum of $50 for any written form or note. I just paid $80 for him to fill out a one page form for my oral surgeon.


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