# Resistors



## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I'm getting confused.
Carbon comp? Carbon film? metal film? fireproof?
Everything I read contradicts everything else I read. 
One guy says carbon comps are the work of the devil, the next guy
says they are just fine. Another guy says only use them in the signal
path, and then I read "don't use carbon comps in the signal path". Then I read
"don't use metal film in the signal path". 

Is there a set of rules I can follow?

Can I just use metal film in everything? They are the best, right? 

Can I use too large of a resistor? Are 1 watt resistors ok where 1/2 watts are
specified? 1/2 watt is the minimum right? Physical size is usually not an issue in amps?

:sSig_help:


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Carbon comp has undefined 'mojo'. Metal film will be fine in everything, and tend to drift less over time - or so I have read. 1/2 watt is certainly not the minimum, I used mainly 1/4 watt in building pedals, and there are fairly commonly available 1/8 watt.

Overvalued (1w instead of 1/2w) is fine - the resistance is the same, so the amount of electricity getting through is the same. Going lower is the dangerous way, as you could burn or blow up undervalued ones.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

I'm in agreement with all of what Keto said. The only time you shouldn't go bigger with resistors is when they are used for fusing, which is not very often, more likely in solid state stuff.
As to the carbon comp issue, most of it is hype, but there are a couple places where they can make a difference, RG Keen wrote a great article about it here:
http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/carbon_comp/carboncomp.htm


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Just to clarify. 

1/2 watt power rating, *specifically in tube amp building,* would be the typical minimum for most circuits...correct?

Cheers

Dave


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

greco said:


> Just to clarify.
> 
> 1/2 watt power rating, *specifically in tube amp building,* would be the typical minimum for most circuits...correct?
> 
> ...


Yes, but not in every position - as I'm sure you know, some positions call for much higher (5W/10W) ratings.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Time for some distraction and inspiration.....










Cheers

Dave


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

As a rule, if you must use carbon comp, always go bigger than 1/4 watt in the high voltage parts of the circuits. The 1/4 watt CC's are not really spec'd for high voltage.
Fender changed all their plate load resistors to 1/2 watt in the early '70's as they're less prone to failure in those circuits.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I worded it badly. When I said "1/2 watt is a minimum" what I meant was, if a schematic calls for all resistors to be 1/2 watt unless otherwise specified - that value is a minimum, not a maximum. I'd like to use all 1 watt if it's ok to. Of course things that require higher wattage resistors would get them. :smile-new:


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Lincoln said:


> ..... I'd like to use all 1 watt if it's ok to. Of course things that require higher wattage resistors would get them. :smile-new:


I'm reasonably sure that you would be fine. I'm just curious as to why you would want to spend the extra money and "overspec" to this extent. 

BTW...it is completely OK to tell me to mind my own @#%&^ business.

In addition, I found this sales pitch while surfing:


*Carbon Composition Resistors* are the choice of tube amp experts for excellent tone and sonical performance.
NO surprise that those have been used in Fender amps since the early 50s.
Used in many tube amplifiers (Fender, Matchless, Mesa Boogie, Dumble and many more) due to its superior sonical performance. Recommended for restoring vintage tube amplifiers with original specs and design resistors or for building your DIY amp with authentic components.
Compared with film type resistors, *carbon composition resistors have much better pulse endurance characteristics.

*What are "pulse endurance characteristics" ? (I did try finding the answer with Google...no real luck)


Cheers

Dave


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

greco said:


> I'm reasonably sure that you would be fine. I'm just curious as to why you would want to spend the extra money and "overspec" to this extent.
> 
> BTW...it is completely OK to tell me to mind my own @#%&^ business.
> 
> ...


I would never do that Dave!
The difference in cost of 1/2 or 1 watt resistors in very minimal. I figure why not go a little over for added reliability and good old piece of mind. (also the leads are longer and easier to work with)

Interesting right-up you found on carbon comps. I have no idea what pulse endurance is either.


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## cdayo (Jan 28, 2014)

This article gives good notes on the CC. What about the other types of resistors? I have trouble sourcing metal film to the places I have been in Toronto...(A1, Active) but I think I would use them in most situations if I had access to them. Is there not also another type of resistor that sells for $10 per unit!? Anyone had experience with these?


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I've been told that even metal film are "too perfect" & "too accurate" for tube amps. I imagine those $10 resistors you mention are the +/- .1% ones. We need to hear more from the pro's. I have way more questions than answers.
Is it the drift of carbon resistors that gives an amp it's mojo?


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Not necessarily. Remember, they used carbon comp early on as they were one of very few types available and they were the cheapest. It had nothing to do with mojo at all. 
For instance, resistor drift can change bias values in a preamp circuit enough to change the gain. Sometimes it sounds good, sometimes not as it depends on how much change occurs. Where things get nasty is when the plate load resistors start to arc internally and cause that irritating frying egg sound emanating from the speaker. More nasty still, is when these resistors start drifting far off spec. in the power supply, screen supply, voltage divider circuits and in rarer cases, the bias supply circuits.

Another thing to take into account is that the problem is a progressive disease. You old amp's mojo may be high right now but chances are, it won't stay that way.
What some people do is measure the drift of their amp's original resistors and replace them with the exact values using new resistors so the tone is captured.



Lincoln said:


> I've been told that even metal film are "too perfect" & "too accurate" for tube amps. I imagine those $10 resistors you mention are the +/- .1% ones. We need to hear more from the pro's. I have way more questions than answers.
> Is it the drift of carbon resistors that gives an amp it's mojo?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd imagine that any "drift" is partly, or even largely, the byproduct of heat, and would not occur in the same resistor sitting unused in a bin for 20 years. As such, do consider that the wattage rating on a resistor reflects its susceptibility to heat. In the worst case, its inability to dissipate the heat generated by the current passing through it turns the resistor into a fuse. In less than the worst case, one might imagine that a resistor getting overheated over time may change its properties a bit.

So the conscious decision to use 1W, rather than 1/2W, resistors is one strategy for making the overall circuit's performance more immune to heat-related changes. Obviously, there are aspects to design and layout that can ameliorate or exacerbate heat management in an amp, but for what it costs to use 1W resistors instead of 1/2W, especially considering how much easier it is to read the colour bands, and the bigger stiffer leads that are a pleasure to work with, there's no strong rationale for NOT using them. I cannot see their use, over 1/2W types, amounting to more than $1-2 in the total cost of the typical amplifier.


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## Schmart (Jun 7, 2011)

This is a pretty good read: http://www.aikenamps.com/index.php/resistor-types-does-it-matter

For what it's worth, I recently built a JTM45 clone from a Weber kit using their cheap metal film resistors (9-27 cents a piece) and I think it sounds great. The Tweed Pro a friend built from a Weber kit using the same resistors is also great.

You can get the nicer audio grade PRP (metal film) or Riken (metal or carbon film) resistors from http://www.partsconnexion.com/ in Burlington if you're into that sort of thing. I'm looking forward to trying them.


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## Cups (Jan 5, 2010)

Carbon also add hiss. Use carbon comp if you want but don't use them where you need reliability.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

I have posted about this many times before. Since I was an industrial salesman who sold the last carbon comps ever made by a large, mainstream manufacturer I do have some "from the horse's mouth" experience. I sold them mostly to military accounts who were still using them long after the rest of the world had abandoned them, not because of any benefit but simply because the military would not or could not update its specs on resistors! Finally Allen-Bradley, the last manufacturer, told them to make a lifetime buy and then forget it! The machines would be scrapped and that would be the end of carbon comps!

This was the end of the 90's. I made great money selling carbon comps to military accounts. I charged them over a dollar A PIECE for a resistor that could have been replaced with a modern carbon film that I sold for $2 PER HUNDRED! Great commissions for me!

In the beginning carbon comps were the only resistors you could get, except for large wattage wire wound units. They were used in everything until the end of the 50's, when carbon and then metal film resistors appeared. Manufacturers couldn't get away from carbon comps fast enough! They drifted in value as they aged and yes Mark, heat made it worse but they also drifted sitting in the stock box!

Even more fun, if they were overloaded to the point of burnout they tended to burst into flame!

So for mainstream electronics carbon comps became history. There are a few small specialty manufacturers today. Carbon comps have some useful properties with very high frequency circuits. Also, the audiophiles have bullshitted each other that carbon comps have better "tone" and will pay ridiculous prices for them!

This idea really doesn't make any sense! Consider, resistance isn't a tone factor anyway! Changing tone requires making changes in the strength of different frequencies, like cutting highs or boosting mids. A resistor can't do this by itself. It opposes the flow of ALL frequencies equally! In other words, it will affect the VOLUME, not the TONE!

There are some areas where a carbon comp will have a slight effect on the tone by changing its value minutely in a guitar amp. This was covered in an excellent article by R G Keen that sadly, everyone quotes but apparently few have actually READ! He pointed out that not only is the effect very small, but it requires big gobs of changing current to become measureable. This is only found in the plate resistors of the typical longtail phase inverter. Again, it is so small that it is doubtful if human ears could hear it. It would sound like a slight thickening or compression to the note, ONLY AT HIGH VOLUMES!

Lastly, carbon comps were the greatest hiss and spit noise generators ever invented! I can't remember how many times I had to change out a carbon comp resistor that made an amp sound like it was frying bacon.

I don't fight this argument anymore. People are going to believe whatever cockamamie thing they want! What's more, since they swallow such mojo because they know little or nothing of electricity and electronics you can't argue with them using electrical/electronic theory! They don't understand and frankly, they don't WANT to understand!

This is another case where I would love to have a blindfold test, especially if I could get some self-appointed "guru" to "pony up and put his money where his mouth is". In his corner would be unprovable mojo.

I have every electronic engineer who ever lived in mine!

Wild Bill/Busen Amps


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Nicely answered.

Is there any rational basis to my suggestion that over-specing a resistor (whichever type one places faith in) by using 1W, rather than 1/2W, provides any added value?


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

mhammer said:


> Is there any rational basis to my suggestion that over-specing a resistor (whichever type one places faith in) by using 1W, rather than 1/2W, provides any added value?


Yes. The Aiken article linked in post #15 mentioned how the higher wattage resistor will have less contact noise. It should also be less prone to any heat induced drift in value, and they are often rated for higher voltage use.
Also, if memory serves, there was a study done by the tone lizard that found higher wattage resistors were much more likely to retain their measured value when heated in use, aside from the issue of long term drift.


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## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

I never could resist her.:sFun_dancing:


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

gtone said:


> I never could resist her.:sFun_dancing:


It takes a lot of power.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

..and sometimes it hertz.



greco said:


> It takes a lot of power.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

.....and you end up getting your fingers burnt every time


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Nicely answered.
> 
> Is there any rational basis to my suggestion that over-specing a resistor (whichever type one places faith in) by using 1W, rather than 1/2W, provides any added value?


+1 to what JB said, Mark. I would just add that you also have to consider where the resistor is used in the circuit. Only plate and cathode resistors see any significant current so changing out grid and tone stack resistors for higher wattages wouldn't show any benefit.

I tend to use higher wattage ratings as plate resistors and most of all as the dropping resistors between filters in the power supply. The power supply affects everything and any noise from a dropping resistor will show up in all the stages following it down the line.

This seems to be missed a lot by even so-called "guru mod shops". I just installed a kit for mods for a Custom Vibrolux Reverb that a customer had already bought. Personally, I thought most of the kit was rather expensive for little real benefit but hey - whatever the customer wants! I did insist on making one change, however. The kit supplier had bumped up the plate resistor value for the reverb driver triode. However, the new resistor he had supplied was only a 1/2 watt. The reverb driver stage passes a fair bit of current. It is really like a 1 watt or so Champ amplifier circuit. You could plug the reverb input line into a speaker and play it no problem! Techs often do this in order to check the driver stage.

The new value being much higher meant that if the same amount of current was flowing the resistor would have to dissipate a lot more heat! I had a 2 watt unit in my junkbox so I used it instead. Overkill on my part but the kit supplier had made a noob mistake, in my opinion.

Wild Bill/Busen Amps


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Fender did this to the plate load resistors in the early '70's to all their amps. Solved a lot of the hiss/frying egg sounds endemic to the earlier amps.


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## ampaholic (Sep 19, 2006)

Not to beat this to death but I think there is a difference between NOS carbon comp and current manufacture.
I'm not disputing or agreeing with any of the points for or against carbon comp, I'm only saying the new stuff is junk riding on the coat tails of the carbon comp hype but I've had pretty good luck with some military grade NOS Allan Bradley carbon comp resistors when I've been lucky enough to get my hands on them. And if you're dealing with repairs to a valuable vintage amp this would be my preferred route.
OK Wild Bill, have at me!


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

ampaholic said:


> Not to beat this to death but I think there is a difference between NOS carbon comp and current manufacture.
> I'm not disputing or agreeing with any of the points for or against carbon comp, I'm only saying the new stuff is junk riding on the coat tails of the carbon comp hype but I've had pretty good luck with some military grade NOS Allan Bradley carbon comp resistors when I've been lucky enough to get my hands on them. And if you're dealing with repairs to a valuable vintage amp this would be my preferred route.
> OK Wild Bill, have at me!


Whatever blows your skirt up! :smiley-faces-75:

As I said, on one side we have mojo coming from people who usually are the ones selling carbon comps.

On the other we have every electronics engineer who ever lived!

It's like arguing about astrology. If someone wants to believe they don't care about facts.

Even if we had a blindfold true scientific test it wouldn't change the mind of a believer.

I'm too busy to beat my head against the wall.

Wild Bill


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

greco said:


> Compared with film type resistors, *carbon composition resistors have much better pulse endurance characteristics.
> 
> *What are "pulse endurance characteristics" ? (I did try finding the answer with Google...no real luck)
> 
> ...


Any answers to this question?

Thanks

Dave


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Well, I got all the information I needed to come to a well informed decision on what kind/size resistors to use. Thanks to every one who posted! I am now a little more armed and a little more dangerous :sFun_dancing:


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

One more question if I may please...........as long as I buy from US/Canadian sources, do I still run the risk of getting Chinese resistors? Where are resistors being made these days anyway?


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## cavemusic (Jul 8, 2013)

greco said:


> Any answers to this question?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dave


The 1/4 W, 1/2 W, etc., power rating for resistors generally means a steady power dissipation rating. It can handle that power dissipation for a long period of time. However, since heat dissipates slowly and they usually fail when subjected to high energy (Joules), electronic devices can often handle higher than rated power for a short period of time - a "pulse". This is of little concern in most types of circuits - you get a resistor correctly rated for the job and you're fine. I don't think I've seen it specified on most low power carbon film resistor spec sheets. There usually is a maximum overload voltage given.


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## cavemusic (Jul 8, 2013)

Lincoln said:


> One more question if I may please...........as long as I buy from US/Canadian sources, do I still run the risk of getting Chinese resistors? Where are resistors being made these days anyway?


It seems to me that the location of manufacture is dependent on the manufacturer - Ohmite, Vishay, Panasonic, etc. - rather then the distributor. Check into that. I'm not sure if it matters much anyway, does it?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Thank You *cavemusic!....... *and a hearty welcome to the forum.

I hope we see you here more often. 

Always enjoyable to have posts from forum members knowledgeable about electronics.

Cheers

Dave


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

cavemusic said:


> It seems to me that the location of manufacture is dependent on the manufacturer - Ohmite, Vishay, Panasonic, etc. - rather then the distributor. Check into that. I'm not sure if it matters much anyway, does it?


Welcome sir! There's some chatter on the internet about Chinese "knock-off" resistors. Leads are under sized and break easily, values are just barely within spec, etc. I try and avoid buying components direct from Chinese sellers on ebay, but places like Newark don't stock all the values used in amps so I go looking in other places.
Being "hobbyist" level, I'm not really confident in my ability to tell a good resistor from badly made one. About all I can do is test them and cross my fingers. Can I trust carbon film and metal film resistors sold on ebay direct from China?


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Lincoln said:


> Welcome sir! There's some chatter on the internet about Chinese "knock-off" resistors. Leads are under sized and break easily, values are just barely within spec, etc. I try and avoid buying components direct from Chinese sellers on ebay, but places like Newark don't stock all the values used in amps so I go looking in other places.
> Being "hobbyist" level, I'm not really confident in my ability to tell a good resistor from badly made one. About all I can do is test them and cross my fingers. Can I trust carbon film and metal film resistors sold on ebay direct from China?


It's simple really, Lincoln. Modern carbon and metal films are used by manufacturers in HUGE quantities! In that world, you either have quality or you can't play!

Poor quality parts mean big problems for the guy who made your 50" LED TV or your IPad. The guys who make that stuff simply won't put up with it. Someone selling them crap will not only be stricken from the buyer's list but will likely have his ass sued off!

So if you buy resistors from the mainstream world of supply you can be confident that they are quality resistors.

Nowadays, EVERYTHING is made in China! Especially electronic parts. However, the demand for carbon comps is very small. The industrial suppliers would likely lose more resistors on their floors than the amount needed for the entire mojo audiophile or guiltar amp market! Remember, only some audiophile has the luxury of putting inferior resistors like carbon comps into his amp. A volume manufacturer would be crazy to do such a thing! It's hard to keep believing in mojo when your home theatre systems all hiss and customers all over the world are screaming at you and demanding warranty action.

Since the mojo market IS so small, there are only a few hole in the wall manufacturers that cater to it! I've seen carbon comp resistors arrive with leads that have fallen off in the package! They get away with it because they have so little competition. Where else can a mojo believer get resistors that big companies like Samsung or LG know are just crap?

If you absolutely have to have carbon comps your best bet is to find surplus stock made years ago.This is getting harder to find every day since Allan Bradley, the last CC manufacturer, stopped making them in the late 90's. Prices of course are exorbitant.

As an old hippy, the ripoff of the carbon comp mojo scene bothers me. It is just taking advantage of the average person's ignorance - everything that we hippies were against!

Wild Bill/Busen Amps


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

I agree Bill....to a point. 
There are countless examples now and historically, of inferior parts being installed in electronic equipment. The old saying " If it gets us past warranty, then it's good". A great example of this mentality is when Fender used those terrible brown/yellow lettering coupling caps in their early Siverface amps. They were cheap and they got the amps through warranty. They of course, replaced them with a better type eventually. That said, there were at least a years worth of amps with them.
Another more nefarious change was due to a smokin' deal on a shipment of CC's made in a Jamaican factory during the Silverface run. They were so bad they had to quickly switch as the resistors were complete garbage. 

Fast forward to today and we still see the same bad habits from Fender. Lelon electrolytic capacitors which in my opinion, should not be allowed on the market as they have a low life expectancy. 

Therefore the idea that you have to have quality to play in the big leagues is just not true. We have just witnessed a HUGE recall from GM over shitty ignition assemblies that should have been dealt with years ago....The same can be applied to many things, including amp parts. Not all are bad, but there still are plenty that are. 
Caveat Emptor!!





Wild Bill said:


> It's simple really, Lincoln. Modern carbon and metal films are used by manufacturers in HUGE quantities! In that world, you either have quality or you can't play!
> 
> Poor quality parts mean big problems for the guy who made your 50" LED TV or your IPad. The guys who make that stuff simply won't put up with it. Someone selling them crap will not only be stricken from the buyer's list but will likely have his ass sued off!
> 
> ...


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## cdayo (Jan 28, 2014)

Wild Bill said:


> As an old hippy, the ripoff of the carbon comp mojo scene bothers me. It is just taking advantage of the average person's ignorance - everything that we hippies were against!


[email protected] right Bill!


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## cavemusic (Jul 8, 2013)

Lincoln said:


> Welcome sir! There's some chatter on the internet about Chinese "knock-off" resistors. Leads are under sized and break easily, values are just barely within spec, etc. I try and avoid buying components direct from Chinese sellers on ebay, but places like Newark don't stock all the values used in amps so I go looking in other places.
> Being "hobbyist" level, I'm not really confident in my ability to tell a good resistor from badly made one. About all I can do is test them and cross my fingers. Can I trust carbon film and metal film resistors sold on ebay direct from China?


Hi. Yes that's true - there are definitely some cheap components out there so you have to be careful. I don't have any experience buying electronic components from ebay sellers, and have never bought carbon composites. I generally buy from digikey or mouser, and I just checked - they list carbon composite from a few manufacturers including Ohmite. Not sure about the specific values you need - perhaps it's limited as well. They certainly are more expensive. I would probably trust an long-time established manufacturer like Ohmite more than others. 

Here are a couple of links:

http://www.digikey.ca/product-searc...t=0&page=1&quantity=0&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25
http://ca.mouser.com/Passive-Components/Resistors/Carbon-Composition-Resistors/_/N-5g9p
http://www.welwyn-tt.com/pdf/application_notes/CCR_AN_A.pdf
Here is a datasheet for Ohmite which specs the pulse handling capability: http://www.ohmite.com/cat/res_od_of_oa.pdf

I hope this helps some.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

nonreverb said:


> I agree Bill....to a point.
> 
> Therefore the idea that you have to have quality to play in the big leagues is just not true. We have just witnessed a HUGE recall from GM over shitty ignition assemblies that should have been dealt with years ago....The same can be applied to many things, including amp parts. Not all are bad, but there still are plenty that are.
> Caveat Emptor!!


NR, remember, we are talking about resistors!

Carbon and metal film low wattage resistors are cheap and in the manufacturing world are sold by the millions! I am not saying that there is never a bad batch. I am saying that you better maintain quality or no one will buy from you!

Remember, I sold in that world for over 26 years. I know how it works. Manufacturers don't buy from any Tom, Dick or Harry. They insist on a quality name and they also have departments that test any new offering. If your parts don't past muster they don't give you a purchase order.

Since resistors are so cheap, you MUST have high volume sales to stay in business! Hell, you have to run maybe 100 thousand resistors just to grease your machines! So you must pay attention to quality. If bad luck strikes, you had better address it quickly. A customer WILL sue you!

As I had said, carbon comps are a small, specialized market consisting mostly of audiophiles who will pay grossly inflated prices. A crappy manufacture CAN survive in such a market! The competition is extremely small. WhoopassLiar Hifi Amps is not at the same level as Samsung Home Theatre Equipment or LG LED TVs.

You have to appreciate the scale things in the manufacturing world operate. When I was on the order desk, I used to give a hobbyist a free microprocessor chip simply because I had no way to take his payment and my system would not allow a onesy-twosy order! It was faster and easier just to give him the damn thing as a free sample to politely get him the hell off my phone! The time spent on him cost me BIG commission money! I was dealing with accounts spending thousands and hundreds of thousands every day. A hobbyist call was about as welcome as a Witness knocking on your door on a Saturday morning. Nothing but an expensive waste of your time keeping you from making real money.

Wild Bill


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

That's why I mentioned the Lelon electrolytic cap issue regarding Fender. They're shitty caps....Fender knows they're shitty caps and I'm sure Lelon knows they're shitty caps. Fender buys them hedging their bets that they'll make warranty before they go boom. They COULD spend an extra 2 cents on a better more reliable cap, but that hurts their bottom line.

Point is, Lelon isn't going anywhere. Does the failure of their product reflect badly on them and Fender? To me and the others who service them.....probably. But hey, if they fix the problem, I won't get the biz...:smile-new:


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

nonreverb said:


> That's why I mentioned the Lelon electrolytic cap issue regarding Fender. They're shitty caps....Fender knows they're shitty caps and I'm sure Lelon knows they're shitty caps. Fender buys them hedging their bets that they'll make warranty before they go boom. They COULD spend an extra 2 cents on a better more reliable cap, but that hurts their bottom line.
> 
> Point is, Lelon isn't going anywhere. Does the failure of their product reflect badly on them and Fender? To me and the others who service them.....probably. But hey, if they fix the problem, I won't get the biz...:smile-new:


It's just another symptom of the race to the bottom in overseas MFG... the parts are used because the MFG was the lowest bidder. The long term costs are not a factor in the decision just like the GM scenario. These companies have to show quarterly performance for shareholders even at the expense of longer term positive outcomes or long term retenion of customers and market share. We are now at the point where amps in stores have broken handles and knobs, before they can even get sold. 

on the other hand .... 
Vintage coupling caps are the sound of an old amp. Very few are made the way the old ones were. Forget the resistors find the right caps, new or NOS and your clone amp will sound right. 
just my .02c 

FWIW If your thing is high gain distortion sounds, the newer caps will sound tighter. 


p


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

That's not necessarily true. Wax coupling caps are vintage caps and by most accounts, are shit. They absorb moisture via humidity and go waayyy off spec. I know as I have to change about 85 of them in Hammond B3 tone generators made prior to 1964.
Same goes with most 40's. 50's and even some '60's amps. Much like the CC resistors, they were the only quality thing around at the time. That doesn't mean they're better. There are some excellent caps being produced today that rival or exceed any vintage vintage cap IMHO.



parkhead said:


> It's just another symptom of the race to the bottom in overseas MFG... the parts are used because the MFG was the lowest bidder. The long term costs are not a factor in the decision just like the GM scenario. These companies have to show quarterly performance for shareholders even at the expense of longer term positive outcomes or long term retenion of customers and market share. We are now at the point where amps in stores have broken handles and knobs, before they can even get sold.
> 
> on the other hand ....
> Vintage coupling caps are the sound of an old amp. Very few are made the way the old ones were. Forget the resistors find the right caps, new or NOS and your clone amp will sound right.
> ...


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

nonreverb said:


> That's why I mentioned the Lelon electrolytic cap issue regarding Fender. They're shitty caps....Fender knows they're shitty caps and I'm sure Lelon knows they're shitty caps. Fender buys them hedging their bets that they'll make warranty before they go boom. They COULD spend an extra 2 cents on a better more reliable cap, but that hurts their bottom line.
> 
> Point is, Lelon isn't going anywhere. Does the failure of their product reflect badly on them and Fender? To me and the others who service them.....probably. But hey, if they fix the problem, I won't get the biz...:smile-new:


I listened to an interview with Ralph Nader, this morning,on CBC's The Sunday Edition. The general focus of the interview was on how and why major automobile manufacturers don't seem to pay attention to auto safety, and more particularly, what happened in the case of GM, the Chevy Cobalt, and the recent disclosure of their long-time awareness of problems.

Nader's analysis was that the individual managers, closer to the shop floor, are generally held accountable for materials expenditures, rather than the safety/functioning of the overall product. So even though the part that would have likely prevented many deaths purportedly accounted for less than 50 cents of the car's manufacture, managers were focussed on being able to demonstrate to _their_ management that they had deployed the most economical solution.

If a supplier can undersell a competitor - even at the cost of quality and reliability - it can happen in organizations that low materials cost will seduce the purchaser, even at the cost of final product quality, or in the case of GM, lives.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

mhammer said:


> If a supplier can undersell a competitor - even at the cost of quality and reliability - it can happen in organizations that low materials cost will seduce the purchaser, even at the cost of final product quality, or in the case of GM, lives.


Perhaps in general, Mark. However, the op was about resistors. A resistor manufacturer in the mainstream world sells BILLIONS of resistors! You cannot ship billions of a product into a marketplace of poor quality and expect to stay in business.

In the electronic manufacturing world, if I had supplied poor quality resistors to a customer like Celestica and a problem had resulted, my distribution company would have immediately gotten its ass sued. Likely the costs would have put it out of business, along with my job.

The original manufacturer who had made the resistors would also have been named in the suit. Making resistors is a lot like making nails. If one batch is crap then ALL your production is likely crap! That's because the machines roll them out so fast and in such vast quantities. That means he would have supplied those resistors to many other customers, all of whom would be suing him!

The nature of the product makes it different than something turned out in small quantities at higher costs, like cog wheels for tank treads.

As for electrolytic capacitors, there are actually only a handful of manufacturers in the Hong Kong area that make ALL the electrolytic caps sold around the world! They are referred in the industry as the "Con" companies, like Electro-Con or Chemi-con.

The brand names we see, like Illinois caps, are made in one of those factories. The sleeves will be of different colours and the brand markings will be different but they will be the same cap as sold by many other names.

Manufacturers will place an order for a year's supply. If they run out of one particular value and voltage early then they have to wait until the next annual order to have any more to sell. Most of them will "timeshare" their production run at a factory. They can then legally claim that they made their own caps! They did, just at the same machines in the same factory as a lot of other folks!

This system has the drawback that if a fault develops in a production line a big part of the market will get flooded with poor quality caps. This happened back in the late 90's. Electronic devices like TVs and hifi gear around the world suffered failures due to bad electrolytic caps. The lawyers got rich from everyone suing each other!

Maybe Fender can afford to pay for warranty work due to shoddy cheap parts but LG can't with all the LED Flat Screen TVs they sell! The cost of fixing the customer's problem is FAR greater than the savings from buying cheap parts. Moreover, how could those cheap parts have hit the market? If a cap manufacturer has a bad batch and he knows about it, he will destroy the batch! Allowing bad caps that can be traced to his factory to hit the market could drive him out of business!

All I know is that I sold such parts to high volume manufacturers for a quarter of a century and never even heard of crap resistor product in the marketplace until the Internet audiophile mojo about carbon comps started happening. That market is for the ignorant and is the only one I can imagine where you could sell such dreck to people that think they are getting something wonderful!

Wild Bill


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

While its safe to say that the majority of uber mass produced electronic parts are going to meet spec... there are multiple ongoing examples of consumer goods that fail 
due to cost cutting measures and lowest bid production decisions...


"This system has the drawback that if a fault develops in a production line a big part of the market will get flooded with poor quality caps. This happened back in the late 90's. Electronic devices like TVs and hifi gear around the world suffered failures due to bad electrolytic caps. The lawyers got rich from everyone suing each other!

Maybe Fender can afford to pay for warranty work due to shoddy cheap parts but LG can't with all the LED Flat Screen TVs they sell! The cost of fixing the customer's problem is FAR greater than the savings from buying cheap parts. Moreover, how could those cheap parts have hit the market? If a cap manufacturer has a bad batch and he knows about it, he will destroy the batch! Allowing bad caps that can be traced to his factory to hit the market could drive him out of business!" 

I don't think anyone can really afford to pay the real cost of warranty work... yet the problems are persistent. Results are often measured in current sales. 
In many cases the customer absorbs the extra costs of the poor product not being fully aware that the failure was a manufacturers defect. The examples cited are clear enough... as indicated in the Ralph Nader interview if the managers are rewarded for cost efficiency they will get these at the expense of quality. The 2008 credit crisis was directly created by the bankers rewards being for sales & deals instead of writing quality mortgages. For the most part the risk takers involved in that one kept their large sales bonuses. 

So while modern resistors and caps will meet spec. That cheaply made $35 effect pedal will be DOA 2/3 of the time, and that same companies mini "EURO MIXER" will last about 2 years. 

as Noted modern signal capacitors are of amazing quality, however the right old mullard caps will help a Marshall clone sound right & an authentic sprague 160p or bumble bee 

is absolutely essential if your are seeking vintage Gibson PAF tones. 

If you do not believe me do this simple test ... assuming you play guitar take any modern hum-bucking guitar with easy control access, epiphone, dillion, PRS SE or USA, Gibson USA 

or even custom shop, obtain one or more authentic .02 bumble bee caps or sprague 160p .02 caps, pulled from a radio or amp ... install them and play the guitar 

do not change anything else ... fancy repros and "just as good caps" will not do... BTW these are crappy caps by modern standards and are unique because no one not even the 

russian military would make or use them now...

you can thank me later 


re the original post 

Bottom line use modern quality components and you will be fine 99% of the time. Sometimes some odd "defect" of an older style part adds some inadvertent sonic element to the build. 

99% of people talk about this without having done any real listening or testing... those who have may be onto something but won't often spill the beans if there is some mojo to be found. 

now go and try those sprague caps people !!

p


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

I don't see how there's any mojo in a cap that bleeds certain frequencies to ground, ie a guitar tone control. I do see (and hear) it in coupling caps in amps however. Damnit, I didn't want to get into this again.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

This conversation is going the way of the dodo.

Parkhead and Bill are diametrically opposed to each other regarding component mojo.
I tend to side with Bill on this one. I have TONS of old caps...boxes of them and I wouldn't use them over new production orange drops unless you accepted the fact that they're old and drifty. Like I said, wax caps of old are now mostly garbage and although I keep a stock of Mullard yellows etc. lying around, their there to make a customer amp look stock. Not because it going to give it's mojo back.

It's the same tired argument about the "mojo" around PAF's and old Strat pickups. They can make pickups exactly the same as old PAF's. Throback even has a couple of the old winding machines from Gibson and the original wire too. Besides, which PAF has the mojo? The one with a short magnet or the long magnet? If using the prevailing theory, they both are.....which further proves my point.

There really needs to be a blind test done for all this. That will solve it forever.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

parkhead said:


> as Noted modern signal capacitors are of amazing quality, however the right old mullard caps will help a Marshall clone sound right & an authentic sprague 160p or bumble bee
> 
> is absolutely essential if your are seeking vintage Gibson PAF tones.
> 
> ...


Sorry Park, but your test needs some changes!

You can't make the changes yourself! It makes your test totally unscientific, since now your own psychology will influence what you think you hear.

You need to have someone ELSE change caps, or even NOT change caps so that you have no way of knowing what cap is involved or even if the original was left alone!

As for bumble bees, I laugh ever time I hear this! Somewhere in my files I have a Zenith service note from the 50's, advising all field servicepeople to routinely change out any and all bumblebee caps they come across in the course of repairing Zenith products. They state (politely) that bumblebees are crap!

When it turns up I will see about posting it here.

Wild Bill/Busen Amps


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Well, no surprises.......I bought all carbon film and metal film, 1 watt & up as required.


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## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

Wild Bill said:


> Sorry Park, but your test needs some changes!
> 
> You can't make the changes yourself! It makes your test totally unscientific, since now your own psychology will influence what you think you hear.
> 
> ...


+1 Absolutely! Capacitance is capacitance - that's all. Back in the days of paper caps, only tolerance, leakage, breakdown voltage and thermal coefficient defined, (and limited) the effect a capacitor had on a circuit. They were sealed in either wax or molded plastic (or bakelite) to control the dielectric properties of the paper.
The bumblebee stripes did not affect the performance of the component. Sprague, Mallory, Aerovox, etc. all gave the same performance when new, assuming similar characteristic values. The only distinction would be their stability over time, and ambient conditions - capacitance would drift, leakage would increase.

You can measure one foot using an old ruler from your seventh grade classroom, or a new stainless steel one - it's still a foot long.


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