# Something is up with the Toronto District School Board



## Guest (Jan 31, 2008)

Okay,

Yesterday (Jan/29) the TDSB trustees voted in favour of Afro-centred schools.

A link to the Star's article on the subject: http://www.thestar.com/article/297001


How does everyone feel about this? 

Torontonian or not, please comment. After all, what ever results from this decision will have an impact on all Canadians.


(I don't think this thread is in violation of the forum rules)


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## Graham (Jan 26, 2007)

I have listened to some of the debates on the radio about this, and I disagree with the idea.

After all of the babble is over it just sounds to me like another social agenda item for some. Where will they be, or better yet, who will they blame when this doesn't achieve their goals?


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

I think it's a definite step in the wrong direction. One parent said - "It's not a segregated school. Anyone can attend," she said. "It's become a racial issue. It's become divisive." - duuuhhh yes it is a segregated school and they have made it a racial issue. I thought we had a standardized curriculum for everyone? I thought we preached diversity and universal acceptance of everyone. 

My 2 cents


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

I don't get it either. Isn't everyone supposed to be learning the same thing? On our newscast they stated that the students would be learning about their own culture/history. Well, that's all fine and dandy but where is that going to take them? They're still going to be competing with everyone else from other schools when it's time to get a job. I see this as a bad move and I'm really surprised it received approval. I hope I'm wrong.


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## Rumble_b (Feb 14, 2006)

I didn't know time was going backwards!! The whole idea is stupid. So whats next, the TTC is going to have "special" seating on the busses??? If I remember anything from history class, wasn't this kind of thing done away with. After a lot of fighting and many other bad things??? Wow!! This is screwed up.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2008)

I figure people should be allowed to have their own schools where they teach whatever they want, *so long as they pay for it with their own money*. 

Private money for private education.


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## co-intelpro (Jan 11, 2008)

Paul said:


> Not in Ontario where the Catholic School system is 100% funded with public money. The Catholic system has the right to discriminate when hiring staff, a right not extended to any other employer.


Yes, but this is somewhat different than basing an entire school on skin colour/race (notwithstanding all the normative content tied up with race/colour). 

Besides, if you aren't Catholic, why would you want to be part of their system anyway? If one doesn't share in a particular system of beliefs, why would it bug anyone that an insitution hire based on that system? I suppose it's the publicly funded part of it.

Would an international chemical lab hire someone who, based on personal reasons, insisted on using only the inch-pound system of measurement over metric? Likely not. Similarly, would a church or religious insitution hire/take on a priest, rabbi, or minister if that person didn't share in the belief system that is part and parcel of that institution? Of course not! 

Insofar as many religious beliefs are "set in stone" for most people, beliefs are malleable and are open to change. This simply is not the case for skin colour/race, and so discriminatory practices based soley on colour/race are more suspect to me... 

BTW, I've learned by experience that the seperate school system usually doesn't exercise their "right" anyway...


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

Well, an important part of education is catering to the needs of the students and finding ways to do so. A 60% drop out rate is a strong indication that their needs are not being met.


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## Graham (Jan 26, 2007)

Paul said:


> "Usually doesn't" = "Sometimes does", and in the context of the Catholic School system in Ontario, and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, that's wrong.
> 
> Be that as it may, (and it might not), the topic here isn't a faith based school system, but one school within a system that is tailored to meet the needs of an identifiable, (and currently at risk), group. There are over 30 "alternate schools and programmes" in the Toronto system so far:
> 
> ...


Education systems cannot or at least should not be the nannies of the kids. The education system should be that, a system that teaches kids skills they need as set out by the Education ministry to help them progress in life.

A high dropout rate, and the numbers have been exaggerated but none the less, a high drop out rate is cause for concern, but the education system does not necessarily need to be held accountable.

As far as teaching cultural importances, many faiths have their own "Heritage Language Classes" held on weekends in our public schools for that purpose.

Our education dollars are stretched far beyond the breaking point as it is and using monies to try and fix a problem that isn't fully education related will just siphon more away from the areas that are.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...my biggest fear is that this will only serve to stir up the very same racism and prejudice that helped create this situation in the first place.

as well, as many have pointed out, it places blacks in a very unflattering light.

i think that if i were black i would campaign against this fervently.

on the other hand, i am reluctant to speak too loudly on an issue like this unless i am able to propose an alternative solution.

-dh


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

Graham said:


> As far as teaching cultural importances, many faiths have their own "Heritage Language Classes" held on weekends in our public schools for that purpose.


My Kids attend Hungarian Language School on Tuesday nights (My wife is Hungarian), so there are definately oportunities to make ethnic school programs available to kids outside of normal school hours.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Hamm Guitars said:


> My Kids attend Hungarian Language School on Tuesday nights (My wife is Hungarian), so there are definately oportunities to make ethnic school programs available to kids outside of normal school hours.


I would imagine quite a few of the drop outs would stay in just because they can learn about their culture. It might be a novelty for a short time but the allure of whatever caused them to drop out in the first place will most likely still be more attractive then staying in school and getting an education. I think its a ridiculous idea but on the other hand at least someone is trying something to find a solution. If it works then great but I don't think so. So much is done to create a multicultural society and this is something that goes against it. The core of my son's very good friends are from Columbia, India and are Afro Canadian as well as Caucasian. The social aspect of school is a very important lesson for the preparation of life. So depriving Blacks the opportunity to interact and learn to live with other races in the school setting is depriving them of a very important life lesson. I do believe they have a right to learn of their culture, what ever that may be. As any one does. I don't think the public school system should have to pay for it. Their are many cultures in the public system and its not fair they wouldn't have the same advantages. The public system could never afford to support every one's culture.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Paul said:


> No one is being deprived....this new programme is a _choice_.


Yes the deprivation of the social aspects of learning will be a choice given to young children that trust that the powers that be know what they are doing.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I would like to see the government allow tax credits for private schooling so parents would have a choice of either public or private schooling. In this case, this is like a private school funded by the public, and that is just plain wrong. If you want to make a school like this and make it private, then thats great, but as soon as public funds are touched its just a bad idea. It sets a precident for all others to say, "why not us too." But I would definately back it if it was private. Parents really should have a choice over the schooling of their kids.........


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

> What would YOU suggest to improve the dropout rate and academic performance of the identified at-risk students in Toronto?


I don't think there is much you can do. Like you said the new school is not mandatory and at age 16 school in general is not mandatory. If they don't wanna go and there is no law making them then what can you do? Its up to the parents to be the biggest influence in guiding a childs future. If this is where the problem lies well what can the school board do about that. You can put up all the special, segregated schools you won't but you most likely won't entice potential drop outs to stay in school.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...by the way, if anyone is under the impression that racism does not exist, or is not a significant factor in today's culture, take a peek at the rant and rave posts on craiglist:

http://toronto.craigslist.ca/rnr/

-dh


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

I just saw this thread... Ckrikey!!!! 

State of "Louisionto" in the works :frown:


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

david henman said:


> ...by the way, if anyone is under the impression that racism does not exist, or is not a significant factor in today's culture, take a peek at the rant and rave posts on craiglist:
> 
> http://toronto.craigslist.ca/rnr/
> 
> -dh


Wow! That is well and truly disgusting and dissapointing.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Starbuck50 said:


> Wow! That is well and truly disgusting and dissapointing.


...trust me, i don't spend any significant time reading those posts, and the little time i do makes me want to take a shower immediately.

as an embattled veteran of the harmony central forums, i am intimately familiar with the rhetoric of hate.

i have to admit, however, that i wasn't aware that american racists had adopted the word "canadian" as a coded substitute for the "n" word.

i certainly don't suggest we enter to a discussion of this kind of thing. it just makes everyone feel dirty. but, i think we have to at least be aware that it exists.

still, i wish i had a nickel for every time i tuned into a local talk show and heard some gruff voiced caller shouting: "if THESE PEOPLE think they can come to MY country...!!!"

-dh


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Paul said:


> But I applaud the Toronto School board for trying.



...as do i. and i am very disheartened to see people try and turn it into a partisan issue. 

i worry that this is a bandaid solution that doesn't really address the roots of the problem.

-dh


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

david henman said:


> i worry that this is a bandaid solution that doesn't really address the roots of the problem.
> 
> -dh


It doesn't. It opens the floodgates for a million more 'band aid' solutions.


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## Guest (Jan 31, 2008)

I can only imagine the horrors that will result from this decision.

I went to Vaughan Road Academy, and that place was, and still is, falling apart. There will be a lot of public funds going to this program (after all, they can't have just one school, right?), public funds that will be stolen from our already struggling public school system.

This is the same as the religious schools debate, though many don't want to admit it. Because, as soon as they create an Afro-centred school that is publicly funded, other groups will demand their own, and that is not reasonable nor is it fiscally plausible. It's the same reason why no religion can have their schools funded by public money. That, and it's discriminatory to give one group publicly funded schooling and not give other groups the same treatment.

If we don't stop this, we'll end up like the bloody Americans, blathering on and on about race issues.

THIS IS CANADA! 

We should not even be thinking like this!


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

I just want to straighten out something here...........when my daughter changed from from public to the separate school system, I had to re-direct my landtaxes towards the separate school board. The people who choose to support the public system do the same. I would say this is fair. 

Who is paying for this black system?


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

Graham said:


> Education systems cannot or at least should not be the nannies of the kids. The education system should be that, a system that teaches kids skills they need as set out by the Education ministry to help them progress in life.
> 
> A high dropout rate, and the numbers have been exaggerated but none the less, a high drop out rate is cause for concern, but the education system does not necessarily need to be held accountable.
> 
> ...


Actually, accountability is also a big part of the education system. For example, teachers spend an awful lot of time prepping their lessons, putting everything down on paper, despite the fact that they will need to stray from their lesson plan. On top of that, they know the book inside out, too (How hard is grade 10 math if you've done 4 years of math at university?). So why waste so much time doing paperwork? Accountability. They need something to show to the parents and the school's administration.

Think of that school as in investment in the kids' future. If it is successful in reducing the drop out rate, even by one percent, it will pay for itself over the years as the students will earn a greater amount of taxable income and fewer of them will rely on social assistance to make ends meet...and that's without counting the direct affect they will have on their communities. One of them might become the doctor or the nurse that saves your life one day.


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

Yeah, education is extremely important, so if this new strategy works, that's great. I guess time will tell. It might be an expensive *experiment* but what else are we going to do? I saw a bumper sticker years ago that I've never forgotten. It went something like this: "If you think the cost of education is expensive, wait til you see the cost of no education."


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> I don't think there is much you can do. Like you said the new school is not mandatory and at age 16 school in general is not mandatory. If they don't wanna go and there is no law making them then what can you do? Its up to the parents to be the biggest influence in guiding a childs future. If this is where the problem lies well what can the school board do about that. You can put up all the special, segregated schools you won't but you most likely won't entice potential drop outs to stay in school.


Yes, but it's easier said that done. It's hard to convince a 16 year-old that he should stay in school if you've never graduated yourself from high-school. Besides, some parents are very suspicious of educators and don't take too kindly to suggestions that they might not be raising their kids properly. By opening up the school they are taking pro-active steps to ensure that the students' needs are met in a manner that will be less threatening to the parents.


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

Gilliangirl said:


> Yeah, education is extremely important, so if this new strategy works, that's great. I guess time will tell. It might be an expensive *experiment* but what else are we going to do? I saw a bumper sticker years ago that I've never forgotten. It went something like this: "If you think the cost of education is expensive, wait til you see the cost of no education."


Bingo! It's total BS that we are made to believe that we are spending so much money on education...can you spend too much on education? As long as it's spent wisely, it is never a waste.


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

david henman said:


> ...as do i. and i am very disheartened to see people try and turn it into a partisan issue.
> 
> i worry that this is a bandaid solution that doesn't really address the roots of the problem.
> 
> -dh


What if it breaks the cycle of dropping out of school and getting on welfare? For some, that's practically the family business.


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

B said:


> I can only imagine the horrors that will result from this decision.
> 
> I went to Vaughan Road Academy, and that place was, and still is, falling apart. There will be a lot of public funds going to this program (after all, they can't have just one school, right?), public funds that will be stolen from our already struggling public school system.
> 
> ...


I mean no disrespect, but I have a problem with that argument. It reminds me of the disingenuous argument some people have been using for years to justify depriving francophones who live outside of Quebec of an education in their first language.


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## Luke98 (Mar 4, 2007)

Will these kids be treated better than the last time a race had their own school? a lot of hush money was given to some unfortunate natives. Alot of them wont really choose to go. their parents will.


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

No they won't. We've proved this time and again as humans. Black schools in the south, native schools in the north.... it will lead to more hate, more racism, more gangs and more violence. Every single time they have tried this throughout history, it has ended wrong.

They're playing the "It can't happen to us..." card by trying this.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

NB-SK said:


> I mean no disrespect, but I have a problem with that argument. It reminds me of the disingenuous argument some people have been using for years to justify depriving francophones who live outside of Quebec of an education in their first language.


I believe there is a French language board in Ontario, and I would figure New Brunswick as well. If I'm not mistaken, they are both publicly funded. After all, French is one of our two official languages. Though I may be wrong.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Here's cynical old me again!

To cite a principal in Doonesbury: " In the 60's we marched in solidarity with them under Dr. Martin Luther King. Now they want their OWN drinking fountains!"

It's apartheid, by definition. You can argue about an all black school but they will eventually graduate to a mixed race world and they will have to deal with it.

Besides, the reasons for the poor graduation rate are not just racial. Race is probably the smallest factor. Culture is the main one. Most of these kids are from immigrant families, from underdeveloped countries. Their parents often have financial problems and they are poorly equipped to help their children cope in a western society if they had no such experience themselves. This won't change if you "ghetto" them all into one school.

What WILL happen is that some "community leaders" will be given power and money! Only the naive would assume carte blanche that this is automatically a good thing for the students. The kids may get black history and some activist's particular ideology instead of the three R's. Everyone will get a diploma but universities, colleges and employers may not respect it.

Hope not, but it sure sounds like this is the case.

:food-smiley-004:


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> It's apartheid, by definition. You can argue about an all black school but they will eventually graduate to a mixed race world and they will have to deal with it.


Its not aparteid, its by choice, and thats what is being lost in the arguement. People should have the choice and freedom to associate and be with whomever they choose. If a group of any color wants to only associate with the people of their own color, then that is their choice. It seems misguided to identify yourself solely by the color of your skin, but if thats the choice, no one should take that away. As for the graduation, its also a choice to get stoned rather than learn and then graduate to a somewhat educated world. Its been done many times before, and people cope..............


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> I just want to straighten out something here...........when my daughter changed from from public to the separate school system, I had to re-direct my landtaxes towards the separate school board. The people who choose to support the public system do the same. I would say this is fair.
> 
> Who is paying for this black system?



...dalton mcguinty says he won't support it, nor will the province fund it.

-dh


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

NB-SK said:


> What if it breaks the cycle of dropping out of school and getting on welfare? For some, that's practically the family business.


...i have no problem keeping an open mind and, if that happens, i would enthusiastically applaud it. these are our black brothers and sisters and, if they need help, we should all be ready to pitch in.

so far, however, it is certainly stirring the flames of racism. check the blogs on am640.

-dh


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Its not aparteid, its by choice, and thats what is being lost in the arguement. People should have the choice and freedom to associate and be with whomever they choose. If a group of any color wants to only associate with the people of their own color, then that is their choice. It seems misguided to identify yourself solely by the color of your skin, but if thats the choice, no one should take that away. As for the graduation, its also a choice to get stoned rather than learn and then graduate to a somewhat educated world. Its been done many times before, and people cope..............


This "Choice" argument has little do with this argument. Yes it is a choice that these students can make. A whole congregation went to Jonestown by choice to.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

So is this something the Black Community has requested? 

(or did the politicos decide it on their behalf?)


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

B said:


> I believe there is a French language board in Ontario, and I would figure New Brunswick as well. If I'm not mistaken, they are both publicly funded. After all, French is one of our two official languages. Though I may be wrong.


Francophones literally had to fight to keep those schools. Some people were killed. 

http://www.umce.ca/~clio/precle/Evenemen.htm

Besides, francophones don't only live in Quebec, Ontario, or New Brunswick, right?

I've worked for the Canadian government, so I could tell you a thing or two about that. For example, we had a small minority of the unilingual Anglophones in our office cause a stink once because they had been asked not to answer the phones unless they were able to communicate in the two official languages (fair request given it was the Canadian government and we received calls from all over Canada. Besides, there had been some complaints from customers). "Oh, but they all understand English", they protested (yeah, some people really are that clueless or selfish).


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> So is this something the Black Community has requested? (or did the politicos decide it on their behalf?)



...as i understand it, this is a decidly non-political and non-partisan issue, despite the relentless attempts by the right to hang it on liberals.

as for the black community, i get the sense that they are strongly divided.

i do believe that it is well-intentioned.

-dh


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

Wild Bill said:


> Here's cynical old me again!
> 
> To cite a principal in Doonesbury: " In the 60's we marched in solidarity with them under Dr. Martin Luther King. Now they want their OWN drinking fountains!"
> 
> ...


It's by choice. Kids of any ethnic background are free to register, or not. 

Do the kids spend all their time in the classroom? Of course they will be able to interact with other ethnic groups.

The rest are all good points.


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> This "Choice" argument has little do with this argument. Yes it is a choice that these students can make. A whole congregation went to Jonestown by choice to.


How is that so? And what does Jonestown have to do with a school in Ontario?


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

NB-SK said:


> How is that so? And what does Jonestown have to do with a school in Ontario?


Exactly, some people dont want you to make choices that they disagree with.......


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Sometime in the future I'd be curious to see poll results showing 1) if the student or parent or both made the decision to attend, 2) if the student had the same belief in the system as the parent, 3) if, in hindsight, the student and parent believed it was the right decision, 4) if the community believes the new school should continue or slowly be integrated with the "old" system, 5) and general performance standards after there's been a graduating class, etc.

I can't see any untimate good in the new school, but in rural and very white southwestern Ontario, even with lots of media coverage, I'm not sure I've got perspective. However, so far it seems pretty stunned to me.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Graham (Jan 26, 2007)

Accept2 said:


> Its not aparteid, its by choice, and thats what is being lost in the arguement. People should have the choice and freedom to associate and be with whomever they choose. If a group of any color wants to only associate with the people of their own color, then that is their choice. It seems misguided to identify yourself solely by the color of your skin, but if thats the choice, no one should take that away. As for the graduation, its also a choice to get stoned rather than learn and then graduate to a somewhat educated world. Its been done many times before, and people cope..............


I have no issue with people making choices, it's learning from those choices that plays a very large part in how you develop. However you need to be accountable for the choices you make. It doesn't get easier as you go through life, you make some very difficult choices, choosing to look after your own kids for example, choosing to ask for help if and when you need it, choosing to skip school and hang out at the mall, etc, etc.

If this school is purely optional, which it is at this point, what makes anyone think that the ones that skipped out of "regular" school that all of their friends and peers had the ability to attend are going to attend this one? Did they stop going or drop out because they weren't learning about black culture or what they were learning was a skewered translation of the facts by white European society? Somehow I doubt it.

And again the students that do strive to achieve will suffer from the diversion of funds.


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

Africentric isn't in the dictionary therefore the school automatically fails, lol. 

Too much reading but every post I skimmed over says it's their choice to go to the school. It's their choice to drop out and/or go back in the first place. I fail to see how an African centered education program will make those who dropped out want an education anymore than before or keep any potential drop outs in school. 

I highly doubt their logic was "there's not enough talk about African's, I quit!"... if they've got the drive to want to learn more about African-centered studies I'm willing to bet they're smart enough to stick it out for the few years, graduate high school and go off and study what they want. Or maybe they'd protest the current curriculum before quitting... phone up the school board and whoop some ass, lol.

Doesn't make sense to me... but I'm barely awake right now. I'll check back in 10 hours and see if I made sense lol.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

NB-SK said:


> How is that so? And what does Jonestown have to do with a school in Ontario?


Did I say that jonestown had anything to do with a school in Ontario. OK I guess I'll spell my point out for you since you have trouble comprehending what I'm saying. Some have argued that it shouldn't matter because it really is their choice. I say just because its a choice doesn't mean it won't be harmful. Then I used an extreme example to illustrate that just because something is a choice doesn't mean it won't end up bad. If you still don't get it send me your mailing address and I'll send you pictures using crayons.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Here is a solution. In the Native community. ( I am native) the practice of paying students to attend school exists. Personally I think its a stupid idea but it does work. Now if this doesn't work for the black students I guarantee that having their own school will not.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Did I say that jonestown had anything to do with a school in Ontario. OK I guess I'll spell my point out for you since you have trouble comprehending what I'm saying. Some have argued that it shouldn't matter because it really is their choice. I say just because its a choice doesn't mean it won't be harmful. Then I used an extreme example to illustrate that just because something is a choice doesn't mean it won't end up bad. If you still don't get it send me your mailing address and I'll send you pictures using crayons.


I think you are confused with the facts. They made the choice to be there, and its not a bad choice to leave society, go to a country and live a meagher exitence. They were killed by their leader, and that wasnt a choice. Im confused as too how this even relates to the public/private school debate. Is there something in the water over there? Choices can be harmful, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt make them. Some people are afraid to make choices, they sit and home and hide from everything. They need help to relaize that making a choice is better than having choices made for them.....


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> Did I say that jonestown had anything to do with a school in Ontario. OK I guess I'll spell my point out for you since you have trouble comprehending what I'm saying. Some have argued that it shouldn't matter because it really is their choice. I say just because its a choice doesn't mean it won't be harmful. Then I used an extreme example to illustrate that just because something is a choice doesn't mean it won't end up bad. If you still don't get it send me your mailing address and I'll send you pictures using crayons.


I got what you were saying. You're the one who misunderstood.

PS. Your extreme example was not an appropriate one. Cult members are systematically stripped of their free will.


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> Here is a solution. In the Native community. ( I am native) the practice of paying students to attend school exists. Personally I think its a stupid idea but it does work. Now if this doesn't work for the black students I guarantee that having their own school will not.


Interesting. I imagine the kids you are talking about live in an ethnically homogeneous community, whereas the school in question will be located in a multicultural community. Your suggestion might work, but it might also inflame racial tension as a result of jealousy. Basically, the solution needs to be catered to the context in which the problem occurs. A solution that works in one community might create a new set of problems in an other.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> If you still don't get it send me your mailing address and I'll send you pictures using crayons.


...i'm thinking this doesn't exactly move the debate forward in any meaningful way.

-dh


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

NB-SK said:


> Interesting. I imagine the kids you are talking about live in an ethnically homogeneous community, whereas the school in question will be located in a multicultural community. Your suggestion might work, but it might also inflame racial tension as a result of jealousy. Basically, the solution needs to be catered to the context in which the problem occurs. A solution that works in one community might create a new set of problems in an other.


Yeah I see what you are saying. Paying them to go to school might show some sort of racial favourtism. Where as giving them there own school doesn't?


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

NB-SK said:


> Besides, francophones don't only live in Quebec, Ontario, or New Brunswick, right?


I know that there are francophones outside of those three province, sheesh. But those three provinces have higher populations of francophones than other provinces, particularly the western provinces. 

Besides, I figure francophone schools should be publicly funded, so long as there is a mandatory grade 9 English course and optional courses throughout the senior years in high schools. After all, that's what publicly funded English schools do for French.


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

At the risk of sounding kind of racist;

Who wants to bet that the black school has the best track, basketball and football teams in the area?

I was always under the impression that high dropout rates were most common in those that lived below the poverty line. Could the bigger problem actually be poverty?


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Well, some folks seem to feel that the students are entitled to their choice, even if it proves a harmful one.

This is a scary thing, at least by my lights. If a student comes out with a worthless diploma because racial ideology was stressed more than the 3 R's then he's screwed for years, if not life. This is an assumption on my part, I know, but these things tend to work out that way. Even if this is NOT the result, it's a dangerous experiment for the kids. If it fails, it's the kids that suffer and not the lobbyists.

Oh well, as long as they're not allowed to smoke I guess things will work out all right! Allow them the right to choose a segregated school but not nicotine, gord forbid!:smile:

:food-smiley-004:


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2008)

Hamm Guitars said:


> At the risk of sounding kind of racist;
> 
> Who wants to bet that the black school has the best track, basketball and football teams in the area?


Well, the students may just end up focusing on sports like many Afro-Canadian students at regular public schools do. Then again, we may just be stereotyping, and that's never good.






Unless it's positive stereotyping. :smile:


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## Graham (Jan 26, 2007)

Wild Bill said:


> Even if this is NOT the result, it's a dangerous experiment for the kids. If it fails, it's the kids that suffer and not the lobbyists.


Similar experiment, IMO, to destreaming and whole language. It doesn't show the ill affects for many years then it needs to be undone and the ones that brought it in are long gone. The kids caught up in it cannot go back.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> This is a scary thing, at least by my lights. If a student comes out with a worthless diploma because racial ideology was stressed more than the 3 R's then he's screwed for years, if not life.


You mean like diplomas in English Lit, Art history, Religion, Women's Studies, Aboriginal Studies, etc? Sure you can get a diploma that doesnt carry $$$ weight, but that doesnt mean it is worthless. Its just worthless in the eyes of corporations. Being worthless in the eyes of corporations doesnt screw one for life...............


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> You mean like diplomas in English Lit, Art history, Religion, Women's Studies, Aboriginal Studies, etc? Sure you can get a diploma that doesnt carry $$$ weight, but that doesnt mean it is worthless. Its just worthless in the eyes of corporations. Being worthless in the eyes of corporations doesnt screw one for life...............


Well, that depends!:smile:

If you got that diploma solely for the interest and education then I would agree. If you intended to use it as a tool to get a particular job or career then it's a different story.

Women's studies aren't much help with engineering or accounting.

:food-smiley-004:


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> Yeah I see what you are saying. Paying them to go to school might show some sort of racial favourtism. Where as giving them there own school doesn't?


To the parents, maybe. To the kids, I don't think so. What do you think? Kids will be more jealous if they don't get a new school or if they don't get money? Besides, it's already been made clear the any kid, regardless of his or her ethnic or racial background, will be able to attend the new school.


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

B said:


> I know that there are francophones outside of those three province, sheesh. But those three provinces have higher populations of francophones than other provinces, particularly the western provinces.
> 
> Besides, I figure francophone schools should be publicly funded, so long as there is a mandatory grade 9 English course and optional courses throughout the senior years in high schools. After all, that's what publicly funded English schools do for French.


Food for your thoughts...

When I was in school, English was mandatory in the French language schools starting in grade 2, whereas it was only an optional course starting in grade 9 in English schools (if I remember correctly).


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Paying kids to go to school sends the message that certain people play by different rules and that makes things much worse. I qualified for the whole government paying for native secondary education thingamabober. My brother jumped on it took the money, I told them to get stuffed, I would pay for my own education..............


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2008)

NB-SK said:


> Food for your thoughts...
> 
> When I was in school, English was mandatory in the French language schools starting in grade 2, whereas it was only an optional course starting in grade 9 in English schools (if I remember correctly).


I was just giving my thoughts. That's all.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Hamm Guitars said:


> I was always under the impression that high dropout rates were most common in those that lived below the poverty line. Could the bigger problem actually be poverty?


...!

-dh


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