# NGD - 1951 Gibson J-50 (and my CITES journey)



## fogdart (Mar 22, 2017)

I don’t normally post NGD threads, but I figured aside from seeing my sweet new axe I could also help to answer questions regarding the CITES import process...

About 6 weeks ago I bought this beautiful guitar from Chicago Music Exchange. After playing every pre 1955 Gibson J-45/SJ/J-50 for sale in the GTA (and be underwhelmed by all of them) I took to the internet. I called all of the shops south of the border that I figured would have a few Gibby slope shoulders to chose from. I asked the sales guys to describe the tone of the guitars in question. Most of them were described as “punchy” or “mid pushed”. I was waiting for one to be described as bright, balanced, and open. David at CME described a whack of Gibby’s to me and only one of them he described the way I wanted him to (without any prompting). I asked him to tell me more about it, and he said that it was the best J45/50/SJ that he’s played in his time at CME. Anyway, we quickly struck a deal and the next thing you know I’m applying for a CITES import permit from the Canadian gov.

When browsing the gov website it seemed as if the CITES stuff was in a dusty corner that was almost forgotten about. After trying to download the PDF version of the application form and finding that it was not available, I called a 1-800 and left a message for the CITES office. A few days later my call was returned and I was emailed the application form (this seemed like standard practice). The form was tricky to figure out, and obviously targeted to importers of lumber. Not your average one-time shopper like me. After some back and forth with an employee at the CITES office I submitted my application form along with an original copy of the sales ad from CME, photos of the guitar, a picture of the serial number, and a copy of the US export permit (provided by CME).

Fast forward 6 weeks and my import permit arrives at my door. CME had been holding the guitar while I waited for the paperwork to come thru. Along with the permit there was a vague instruction sheet stating that the ORIGINAL COPY of the import permit had to accompany the item (my guitar in this case) as it crossed the border. I was about to FedEx overnight the paperwork to CME, but given how the whole thing had gone up to this point, I figured I’d better call the CITES office and double check. The CITES office actually had no idea how this worked and put me thru to the Canadian Border Services Agency. The supervisor at the CBSA told me that I needed to hold on to the import permit and that I would be contacted by the courier when my guitar got stopped at the border. I expressed that I wanted to have my guitar shipped directly to my house, and he said that’s not possible. The way it works is that the guitar gets stopped at customs and then the importer has to bring his permit to customs in person to pick up the guitar.

So, I sent an email to CME and told them to ship the guitar. Within an hour it was on the move with UPS. Much to my surprise, three days (and a massive HST charge) later the guitar arrives at my door. Unopened by customs. Completely ignored. All of that CITES garbage for nothing.

If any forum members would like help filling out the CITES import paperwork I’d be glad to help. Though I now know it’s a bit of a farce. I think the last thing customs officials care about is a hundred grams of Brazilian Rosewood. A shipment of 30 logs is different story.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

that "accompany the guitar" refers to people traveling with the instrument / species/ specimen/ etc 

as in personally buying it in the US , travel across the US border and stop at Canadian customes , declare the item , they inspect and verify with the permit, assess duties / taxes ... and you're on your way .

yes , it's supposed to work as the border agent told you ... but like anything else it probably went like this at 2 AM :

courier, package. 
what is it ?
just a guitar
OK , hold on a minute .... what's the price on it ?
$$$$ US 
yeah , (typing in the background ) that's $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ HST Canadian , there ya go ... now where's my coffee.
nite 
yeah , nite... slurp.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Man, that is a killer! Congrats!


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## StratCat (Dec 30, 2013)

Does it sound as you had hoped/was described compared to all the GTA trials?


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## fogdart (Mar 22, 2017)

oldjoat said:


> that "accompany the guitar" refers to people traveling with the instrument / species/ specimen/ etc
> 
> as in personally buying it in the US , travel across the US border and stop at Canadian customes , declare the item , they inspect and verify with the permit, assess duties / taxes ... and you're on your way .
> 
> ...


“Accompany the guitar” means no matter how the guitar crosses the border it needs the import permit. So whether it’s brought back in hand, or shipped, the permit is supposed to be with it. Obviously that’s difficult to coordinate when having an item shipped, so the CBSA’s solution is to stop the item and have the importer come pick it up with the import permit in hand. 

As for your guess as to how it went down between the courier and CBSA official.... I bet you’re pretty damn close to being bang on. I also think it’s like that no matter the time of day. A single guitar with a tiny sliver of rosewood is not worth the paperwork for them.



jdto said:


> Man, that is a killer! Congrats!


Thanks Jack!


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## fogdart (Mar 22, 2017)

StratCat said:


> Does it sound as you had hoped/was described compared to all the GTA trials?


It sure does. Beautiful depth, lots of top end sparkle. The guitars that were for sale locally felt stiff and lifeless. This one is open and alive. Bouncy and clear.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

fogdart said:


> “Accompany the guitar” means no matter how the guitar crosses the border it needs the import permit. So whether it’s brought back in hand, or shipped, the permit is supposed to be with it. Obviously that’s difficult to coordinate when having an item shipped, so the CBSA’s solution is to stop the item and have the importer come pick it up with the import permit in hand.
> 
> As for your guess as to how it went down between the courier and CBSA official.... I bet you’re pretty damn close to being bang on. I also think it’s like that no matter the time of day. A single guitar with a tiny sliver of rosewood is not worth the paperwork for them.
> 
> ...


First off, great looking guitar.

To clarify - when crossing the border accompanying the guitar, you don’t require a CITES permit. There is an exemption for a permit requirement when quantities of rosewood are under 10kgs, which no guitar has that much Rosewood.

The issue at hand, which was explained to me by a senior CITES rep., is when goods are shipped, the border agents cannot be expected to open all shipments. See response from the senior CITES rep. below:

_If you pickup and bring the guitars home yourself, there would be no permits required. When items are shipped, it is difficult for us to validate the claim of personal use, so we do not allow shipments to travel under the exemption allowed for rosewood items. It is too difficult to implement correctly._

I have done it both ways; picked up guitars at CBI USA which specializes in receiving goods for Canadians at a US warehouse which requires no permits and, receiving the guitars directly from the foreign music shop which requires the permits. It took roughly 45 days from the time the merchant applied for the permit(s) until I received the guitar(s). 

I agree, I think not much care is done by the border agents and it appears that this is going all away in the next couple months and guitars being shipped will no longer require CITES permits.


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## StratCat (Dec 30, 2013)

Just saw this on Reverb: “musical instruments with rosewood exempt from CITES restrictions, except those with Brazilian Rosewood”


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## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

Your experience with anyone working in the government that deals with CITES is very similar to mine. It feels like they just don't give a crap about a guitar with rosewood on it. The recent exemptions for guitars is pretty much just validating what everyone thought all along.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

please note the "Brazilian" rosewood instruments still requires a document during cross border travel , for any amount 
other rosewood species are now exempt ...


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

That is quite the find! Too bad you had to have it shipped via UPS I imagine they charged a handsome fee for brokerage on your guitar. Just a heads up. I have friends on the border who will pick things up for me and bring them across to Canada. I feel obligated to give them a bit for their trouble but it would be a lot less then paying the fees that UPS and FedEx charge. If that is a help to anyone, let me know and I will help you out.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I have a couple kilos of ... ummmm,,,,,errrr .... baking powder on the other side of the border. I wonder if he'd pick that up and bring it across for me. I'd pay him $5k for his trouble. But we don't know each other if the border guards are 'baking powder' fans, K?


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

Great looking J50....good to hear that it lived up to the salesman's description.


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