# 1949 0-15 Martin...



## Matthew Kelland (May 23, 2020)

Bought a dream guitar last week from Chicago Music Exchange....

Shipped from CME and arrived on a Monday. Gave it 32 hours (they said 24 should work).
Opened it, tuned-it, loved it.
Played again Wednesday and Friday, loved it.
Put it in the case with Humidipaks (recommended by CME) and kept in its case for all but about the hour I played it since getting it.
Opened it up Sunday evening and noticed the neck shifted forward (see photos)
It's a '49 and has had lots of work (see listing below) but was stable and given a clean bill of health from CME before I bought it.
I haven’t changed the strings since it arrived and it hasn’t left my apartment since I got it. It was tuned to standard tuning.
All of my guitars are stored away from any direct heat in the closet. Apartment is at about 20-21 and the weather outside has been mild (over 1-5 degrees Celsius) the past week.
I checked all my other Martins and Gibsons and no issues at all. All of them like this in their cases with humidipaks.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

That is heartbreaking. When it's an instrument that old, and makes it this far, only to have something like this happen, it's like those stories about a person who survives war zones and horrible refugee camps, and spends their life savings to come here, only to get fatally stabbed driving a cab, despite having 3 degrees.

The issue may not have been the weather in St. John's, but rather the contrast between the weather where you are, and what the guitar encountered along the way. Air cargo holds can be bloody cold.

Anybody have any received wisdom about how long to wait before exposing an acoustic shipped from/through the cold to local temperatures? I'm not saying that is _definitely_ the cause, but I can't imagine you're the first person to ever experience something like this. And I've watched enough medical emergency shows to know that you don't throw someone experiencing hypothermia immediately into a hot shower.


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## Mrserc (May 13, 2021)

Ouch, sorry that happened to you. I’m not a luthier, but seems likely there were cracks at the fingerboard extension already that weren’t noticed, and the cold shipping temperatures and then bringing it back up to temp however slowly made it worse resulting in that failure.

Check out this video from Mark Stutman at Folkway, around the 7:30 mark. Unless you use lighter fluid it’s really hard to tell whether there were cracks there initially.

Hope they do the right thing for you.


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## Matthew Kelland (May 23, 2020)

Mrserc said:


> Ouch, sorry that happened to you. I’m not a luthier, but seems likely there were cracks at the fingerboard extension already that weren’t noticed, and the cold shipping temperatures and then bringing it back up to temp however slowly made it worse resulting in that failure.
> 
> Check out this video from Mark Stutman at Folkway, around the 7:30 mark. Unless you use lighter fluid it’s really hard to tell whether there were cracks there initially.
> 
> Hope they do the right thing for you.


Thanks for the info and the video. Perhaps you're right. =(


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## Matthew Kelland (May 23, 2020)

From CME: "This puts us in a very tough position because it did not arrive this way. It is also outside of our return window, but the most important part is that it simply didn't arrive in this condition...even under normal string tension, this is not common. Looking deeper into my records and the history of this 0-15, we bought it in July 2021. During that time it was under the exact same string tension without any issue. It was thoroughly inspected when we received it, and it was also thoroughly inspected on departure, and again there were no issues so given all this we simply cannot take this back. Do you have a tech that you can get it to or a luthier who can do a repair on it? Again I'm very sorry and I 100% empathize here, I just can't take a return on this one."

I spoke to this rep (great guy, deal with him all the time) when it arrived (after the warm up period) and raved about the guitar, then it falls apart days later...ugh.


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## Mrserc (May 13, 2021)

Matthew Kelland said:


> It was thoroughly inspected when we received it, and it was also thoroughly inspected on departure, and again there were no issues so given all this we simply cannot take this back. Do you have a tech that you can get it to or a luthier who can do a repair on it? Again I'm very sorry and I 100% empathize here, I just can't take a return on this one."


He’s a rep not a luthier. Take his advise and take it to an experienced luthier and have him provide an opinion on how that happened and whether there had to have been a pre-existing issue for that failure to happen under those conditions. Then go back to CME armed with something and try again.


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## Matthew Kelland (May 23, 2020)

Mrserc said:


> He’s a rep not a luthier. Take his advise and take it to an experienced luthier and have him provide an opinion on how that happened and whether there had to have been a pre-existing issue for that failure to happen under those conditions. Then go back to CME armed with something and try again.


Fair enough, good call.


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## CDWaterloo (Jul 18, 2008)

Sorry to hear that. I hope you can somehow return it to CME. I have never dealt with them but I've always heard good things about them.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

That really sucks. Too bad you are not in Ontario... Folkway are considered one of the best, and Mark is (becoming) world renowned for his ability to see/fix this stuff. 

Good luck.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

So heartbreaking! 

IIRC, I have never seen anything like this before here in the forum.

I am following with interest.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

We occasionally buys plants, bulbs and other semi-grown things from Vesey's in PEI. They don't ship until they know the weather conditions will be hospitable where you are, and in transit. I wonder if CME should also adopt a similar approach. Obviously they can't know too far in advance what the temperature and/or humidity will be, but at least they can reduce the risk of things like this happening.


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## silvertonebetty (Jan 4, 2015)

Ouch sorry to see that


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## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

From the pics and your description..I'd say the block has let go.
Good chance the hide glue froze and lost it's adhesion.(changes in temps and humidity) 
I realize that hide glue can be frozen to be reused without consequence but glue this old ...who knows what it has been subjected to during it's life
Properly humidified instrument being subjected to freezing during transport can be problematic.IMHO
I would never ship an acoustic where there was a chance of being frozen .
Sorry to see this....
I've owned and cherished a couple of pre war 00's..they are special.
I'm confident the right person can bring it back.
Good luck....Cheers


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

When you first opened the case was the guitar properly packed inside the case? It should have had padding so that the guitar was well supported- forward, backwards, up and down. Was it detuned?

Here's what can happen in shipping. The guitar can take a fall and if the neck is poorly supported or, if it's a hard fall, could have a shock that cracks a support or around the neck block. The top would hang on for a few days and then finally give out.

Example; I have a customer that brought me a guitar that he sold and shipped to Florida that was subsequently shipped back because it likely got dropped and there was a little crack in the top between the endpin and metal plate (resonator guitar). Anyhow, I looked at it and inspected the guitar when he dropped it off. That's the only thing that seemed wrong with it. When I opened the case to do the work on the crack, the neck heel had a crack, the fretboard was coming off near the headstock and there was a split at the headstock.

Point being, it can take a considerable amount of time for a guitar that suffered some kind of shipping trauma to show you all its issues. If it was dropped on its back and the neck wasn't supported well supported inside the case, you could easily have that kind of thing happen.

Anyway, I would try again with CME. I think they need to do you a solid and make this right. Get it inspected and document the damage and any theories the luthier you take it to has.

Edit:btw, regarding the guitar I mentioned with all the late showing shipping damage, my customer was able to make a claim for around $2k after I wrote an assessment of damage and cost of repairs.


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## leftysg (Mar 29, 2008)

From the thread title I thought this had the potential to be a BeeGees ballad from the '60s.


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## Tom T (May 3, 2016)

Hey Matthew
That is terrible to see, sorry it happened to you. I’ve been buying and selling old Martins for a long time, and have had many shipped from the US. I think I’m lucky, but never had an issue in the past. I don’t want to speculate on the cause but I would suggest signing up on the Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum (UMGF) and post your experience in the ‘Technical Info’ section. There are a lot of very knowledgeable repair guys who will chime in.
Good luck!


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## John123 (Jul 22, 2020)

Really sorry to see this happen; really heartbreaking situation. Best of luck!


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## Matthew Kelland (May 23, 2020)

zztomato said:


> When you first opened the case was the guitar properly packed inside the case? It should have had padding so that the guitar was well supported- forward, backwards, up and down. Was it detuned?
> 
> Here's what can happen in shipping. The guitar can take a fall and if the neck is poorly supported or, if it's a hard fall, could have a shock that cracks a support or around the neck block. The top would hang on for a few days and then finally give out.
> 
> ...












CME are pros and I can’t say enough good things about them. I just think the guitars repairs weren’t stable enough for it to travel in winter. But I’m bringing it to a luthier today to check it out. I’m speculating of course.


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## alphasports (Jul 14, 2008)

Sorry to see this. I think you should move forward and get this repaired rather than spin your wheels in a futile attempt to prove that it's somehow CME's fault, I don't think they're going to budge (nor would I in their shoes). This is not a complicated repair but you may need to ship it off the Rock, I'd recommend Ted Woodford in Hamilton, or Folkway, or 12th Fret. Any of those guys will get this back to perfect playing condition.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

Matthew Kelland said:


> View attachment 403454
> 
> 
> CME are pros and I can’t say enough good things about them. I just think the guitars repairs weren’t good enough for it to travel in winter. But I’m bringing it to a luthier today to check it out. I’m speculating of course.


I'm sure they pack well. 
Thing is, the guitar has survived a long time without that happening to it. It was shipped, and within a week it looks like it does now.
To me, that is damage caused by shipping. It may not be the typical "here's where the dude smashed the box with the forklift" kind of thing but still, they do insure for damage and loss. I'm just really surprised that they are not willing to pursue a claim. If it was caused by the guitar freezing during shipping then that's not your fault, you fulfilled your part of the deal when you paid for the guitar and shipping. I bet the guitar would still be in great shape if it wasn't shipped. 
Anyway, good luck with it.


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## Matthew Kelland (May 23, 2020)

alphasports said:


> Sorry to see this. I think you should move forward and get this repaired rather than spin your wheels in a futile attempt to prove that it's somehow CME's fault, I don't think they're going to budge (nor would I in their shoes). This is not a complicated repair but you may need to ship it off the Rock, I'd recommend Ted Woodford in Hamilton, or Folkway, or 12th Fret. Any of those guys will get this back to perfect playing condition.


Thanks, I agree. I more so wanted to get initial thoughts from some experts on GC who may have had similar experiences given that time is of the essence in chatting with the seller. I'm going to move forward with an assessment locally here today and then will determine the best spot to fix it. CME will offer me $200 USD to help towards the repairs.


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## Matthew Kelland (May 23, 2020)

zztomato said:


> I'm sure they pack well.
> Thing is, the guitar has survived a long time without that happening to it. It was shipped, and within a week it looks like it does now.
> To me, that is damage caused by shipping. It may not be the typical "here's where the dude smashed the box with the forklift" kind of thing but still, they do insure for damage and loss. I'm just really surprised that they are not willing to pursue a claim. If it was caused by the guitar freezing during shipping then that's not your fault, you fulfilled your part of the deal when you paid for the guitar and shipping. I bet the guitar would still be in great shape if it wasn't shipped.
> Anyway, good luck with it.


Appreciate it, some very good points. The main thing they say is that it was "fine" when it was opened but I know that's a tangle and UPS/shipper is going to say they did everything right. Cheers


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

alphasports said:


> I think you should move forward and get this repaired rather than spin your wheels in a futile attempt to prove that it's somehow CME's fault


It's not really about fault, it's nobody's "fault". Obviously CME packed and shipped professionally but they also insure for the unfortunate time when something like this happens. It's worth getting a quote and making a claim. I'm really surprised that they just dismissed it and essentially said "you bought and it broke in your care". Within a week of shipping in mid winter? Lame.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

Matthew Kelland said:


> Appreciate it, some very good points. The main thing they say is that it was "fine" when it was opened but I know that's a tangle and UPS/shipper is going to say they did everything right. Cheers


Keep in mind, CME has experts there that will understand how this could happen. There's always risk in shipping and especially in the winter. That's why you have insurance.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Matthew Kelland said:


> Thanks, I agree. I more so wanted to get initial thoughts from some experts on GC who may have had similar experiences given that time is of the essence in chatting with the seller. I'm going to move forward with an assessment locally here today and then will determine the best spot to fix it. CME will offer me $200 USD to help towards the repairs.


That's sort of the compromise I was just about to suggest. NO doubt shipping it back...safely...could almost amount to the same dollar figure. And if it doesn't have to suffer the indignities of winter travel in shipping, any repairs should hold up better.


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## CDWaterloo (Jul 18, 2008)

Matthew Kelland said:


> Thanks, I agree. I more so wanted to get initial thoughts from some experts on GC who may have had similar experiences given that time is of the essence in chatting with the seller. I'm going to move forward with an assessment locally here today and then will determine the best spot to fix it. CME will offer me $200 USD to help towards the repairs.


I would first try Chris Kearsey at O'Briens Music. I've never seen a bad job done by him so far. very good at vintage/old acoustic guitar restoration.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

mhammer said:


> That's sort of the compromise I was just about to suggest. NO doubt shipping it back...safely...could almost amount to the same dollar figure. And if it doesn't have to suffer the indignities of winter travel in shipping, any repairs should hold up better.


This isn't a Seagull or Taylor we're talking about here. I'm not sure what the purchase price was but this is a vintage Martin that is now severely compromised. Regardless of the cost of repair, this guitar has now lost at least a thousand dollars or more in value and would no longer be of interest to a collector nor many players. With a vintage guitar it's not about the cost of the repair, it's about the loss of value due to the repair, as well as the cost of repair, of course.

Anyway, I'm feeling like I'm poking my nose in other people's business now so I'll leave it at that.


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## Matthew Kelland (May 23, 2020)

CDWaterloo said:


> I would first try Chris Kearsey at O'Briens Music. I've never seen a bad job done by him so far. very good at vintage/old acoustic guitar restoration.


Thanks, he's the man who will indeed be looking at it for me. He's already been in the loop. Cheers


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

zztomato said:


> Anyway, I'm feeling like I'm poking my nose in other people's business now so I'll leave it at that.


Poke away...we are learning something valuable.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

If it’s not original and has been repaired before then additional repairs, if done well, shouldn’t affect the value much if at all.


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## Mrserc (May 13, 2021)

Sounds like you loved the guitar before this happened, so hopefully you can get it back to where it was without too much additional investment in repairs and still be happy with the end result.

The response from CME still doesn’t sit well with me though. I strongly agree with zztomato, it’s clearly a result of the shipping and nothing you did wrong so I still hope they’ll take a more reasonable position when presented with some additional information from a luthier who has inspected it in person.

Please let us know how it goes and best of luck. I look forward to the after repair photos when it’s back in top shape.


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## Matthew Kelland (May 23, 2020)

Mrserc said:


> Sounds like you loved the guitar before this happened, so hopefully you can get it back to where it was without too much additional investment in repairs and still be happy with the end result.
> 
> The response from CME still doesn’t sit well with me though. I strongly agree with zztomato, it’s clearly a result of the shipping and nothing you did wrong so I still hope they’ll take a more reasonable position when presented with some additional information from a luther who has inspected it in person.
> 
> Please let us know how it goes and best of luck. I look forward to the after repair photos when it’s back in top shape.


Appreciate it! I agree, I couldn't have been more careful with it.


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

In my opinion it looks like bad transport conditions caused by the climate.


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## Matthew Kelland (May 23, 2020)

CME stepped up and offered a partial refund to fund the repair and then some which was very appreciated. I do a lot of business with them and will continue to, great crew down there. The 0-15 is with Chris Kearsey (O'Briens Music) here now. Will post a repair update when complete.

Thanks to everyone who chimed-in over the past few days.


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

https://www.martinguitar.com/on/demandware.static/-/Library-Sites-MartinSharedLibrary/default/pdf/2020-humidity-bulletin.pdf


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I repaired a Gibson classical years ago that had damage very similar looking to that Martin. Friend of mine, playing a nightly duet gig with a violinist at the time, played it that night, put it away, in the morning this is what it looked like.










The front brace had come up-glued at some point, no telling when. The top supported it for a while, and then suddenly gave up the fight.

The guitar was very dry due to wood heating in his home. I'm sure that had a lot to do with it.


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## DrumBob (Aug 17, 2014)

You may want to consider sending this guitar right back to Martin and have them handle the repair. Take it to the source. I'm sure it will cost more, but they have the facilities and know how to repair it right.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

There are authorized repair places here, or there were.


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

player99 said:


> There are authorized repair places here, or there were.


You never know if these guys are competent or not, who the store is dealing with, an in-house handyman or a very experienced luthier. I've read some pretty scary stories about this.

A badly repaired guitar is even more difficult to repair again


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Latole said:


> You never know if these guys are competent or not, who the store is dealing with, an in-house handyman or a very experienced luthier. I've read some pretty scary stories about this.
> 
> A badly repaired guitar is even more difficult to repair again


You mean an authorized Gibson or Martin repair shop will not have to meet any standards to get that designation? I am not refuting you, just asking. Cheers!


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

player99 said:


> You mean an authorized Gibson or Martin repair shop will not have to meet any standards to get that designation? I am not refuting you, just asking. Cheers!



You can never know how and how seriously a seller is licensed and if it is monitored in case the seller loses his technician, the one who has been licensed.
And how is the monitoring done over the years?

To repair a $100 Epiphone it doesn't matter but a 1949 Martin!


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

player99 said:


> You mean an authorized Gibson or Martin repair shop will not have to meet any standards to get that designation? I am not refuting you, just asking. Cheers!


Quite by chance, a new customer has just brought me a Randal head that has been twice to the authorized service, a big box that I will not name and the repair does not last.

I will try to do better


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## Jay E Morritt (Nov 17, 2017)

I just looked at the original CME listing and was troubled by this (see pic). I am thinking putting that much tension on the neck of a really old lightly built 0-sized guitar was a bad idea. It likely needed another neck set and they tried to cheat it. Of course it will be impossible to prove, but i can tell you i sure would not be putting 13s on that guitar!


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