# Flu vaccine



## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

I hear the regular yearly flu vaccine also has the H1N1 vaccine in with it..two for one.My wife got her shot today, and they did not tell her this, i read it in the paper.I think people should know what there getting.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I asked the doctor first if it was a two-in-one, after he said the flu shot was in. It was the singular use of shot that tipped me off. I've had it every year for at least 15 years. No problems, no flu. I work with a slightly higher risk group of people though.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

they can keep their monkee pox for themselves. i was paying attention last year. remember how they tried to shove it down everyones throats? then later we all learned how the leaders of the WHO decided not to get it themselves. 
[sarcasm]_gee that's not suspicious at all_[/sarcasm] 
i looked up a list of "ingredients". i may not be a health fanatic, but there were several disturbing items on that list. 
lastly, let's not forget that they (the cdc and the who) also drew up a plan for the military to come to your house and force you to take it, should they decide it neccessary. no thanks, i'll pass


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

Rick31797 said:


> I think people should know what there getting.


If people knew exactly what they were getting and the true efficacy of it, drug companies would have a much harder time pushing it. None for me, thanks. No flu for several years, either.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I saw something last year I had not seen before; big signs advertising flu shots, radio advertisements, fliers in the mail, TV promotion, etc. all pushing to get your flu shot. When the drug companies get this pushy and have enough money to spend on all this advertising, doesn't it make you wonder it it's a health scheme or a money scam?

I've also noticed a lot more people saying they or a family member have/had the flu, when it turns out they really had a cold which the flu shot does nothing for. A lot of people are so flummoxed with all the flu advertising and scare mongering that they don't know the difference between the flu and a cold for crying out loud. Sniff, sniff. I think I have another flold coming on.


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

FlipFlopFly said:


> I saw something last year I had not seen before; big signs advertising flu shots, radio advertisements, fliers in the mail, TV promotion, etc. all pushing to get your flu shot. When the drug companies get this pushy and have enough money to spend on all this advertising, doesn't it make you wonder it it's a health scheme or a money scam?


The pharmaceutical industry is bigger than the oil and the weapons industries. The top ten pharmaceutical companies on the Fortune 500 list make more money than the other 490 companies combined.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

Ontario Hydro must be also be trying too make the top 10.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I'll opt out again this year.

I used to get it every year and I seemed to get sick the very next week every year.

Yes, I know. There's no connection, blah, blah blah, but yet.....

I haven't had a flu shot for three years and guess what? The worst thing I've had has been a case of the sniffles that I beat up within a week or so. Compared to the annual bouts of bronchitis and once or twice, pneumonia I used to get this seems to be better.

Anyway, I prefer to keep my immune system on it's toes and fight things off myself. Clearly there are people for whom this is not a reasonable choice but I also think as a society, we tend to run to the chemist far too often in general.

I think partly as a result of taking so many anti-biotics and vaccines we're gradually weakening.


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

The thought of _anyone_ injecting the DNA of another species (bovine) directly into the bloodstream of infants and little children is totally repugnant to me, not to mention the other chemicals and noxious substances involved. They won't be touching me or my family _EVER_ with this sh!t.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I get my flu vaccine every year with confidence, and did so again this year.

As for pharmaceutical companies getting rich, they make FAR more money off men's anxiety about their peckers, people's inability to cope or support each other emotionally, and oppressive workplaces insisting that you show up to work no matter how you feel, than they do from vaccines that need to be constantly redeveloped every year because the viruses keep shape-shifting.

As for suspicions of "foreign DNA", then I suggest one avoid all antibiotics, and pretty much all life-saving medication. Human stomachs normally have all manner of foreign beasties living in them, which are essential to normal digestion. I have no problem with my body cohabitting with other DNA.


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

mhammer said:


> As for suspicions of "foreign DNA", then I suggest one avoid all antibiotics, and pretty much all life-saving medication. Human stomachs normally have all manner of foreign beasties living in them, which are essential to normal digestion. I have no problem with my body cohabitting with other DNA.


The human stomach is very acidic and is also protected by the mucous membrane, one of our best lines of defense against xenobiotics (foreign organisms). Also, you are an adult with a fully developed immune system. Injecting xenobiotics and other chemicals directly into the bloodstream of infants, bypassing the mucous membrane (their only fully developed line of defense) is, to me, very, very wrong. As for antibiotics, well, we know what is happening there. Their overuse is becoming a huge problem.

As it stands, the H1N1 swine flu vaccine is classified as a Class C drug, meaning that the vaccine has not yet been evaluated for carcinogenic or mutagenic potential. Nor have animal studies been conducted to investigate possible fetal harm.


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

The funny thing is more folks die from the reugular flu then they did with H1N1, my last flu shot was over 20 years ago and that was the last time I had the flu. But I do believe in childhood vacinations, having had polio at a very young age it is something I never want to see happen again and with the recent outbreaks in parts of the world where the vacination is available is scary to me, as we have recently seen with something like the outbreak of Whooping cough in California.ship...........................oh and I still remember the iron ling, its a sound you'll never forget


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Absenteeism is one of the biggest problems in industrial Canada right now. We're becoming a nation of malingerers. People are starting to view their sick days as an extension of their vacation days. When 8 to 10% of your workforce is off due to illness at any given time, being paid, it's tough to be competitive.

I'm entitled to 8 sick days per year. I've been lucky enough not to need them since 1994.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I hope to goodness you aren't basing that on a recent article about the absenteeism rate in the federal government. The guy who generated the numbers reported in those articles that sprouted like mushrooms throughout the Canwest chain works downstairs from me and we were chatting about it the other day. Apparently he received an access-to-information request for the numbers without any indication of what they were going to be used for. He supplied them, as requested, and when he saw the article that came out, he was livid about how they had been misinterpreted.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Big_Daddy said:


> As for antibiotics, well, we know what is happening there. Their overuse is becoming a huge problem.


No kidding. it shocks me how many otherwise intelligent foly have NO idea about antibiotics. That includes Dr's. The gwoman who sits next to me here at work is on antibiotics 3-4 times per year, as are her kids. Then she wonders why that cough just does not get any better! Every sore throat is "strep" this of course being diagnose without the Dr taking a swab (I asked) Another woman (with an engineering degree no less) Decided to stop her childs antibiotics after a couple of days cause he seemed much better. Normally I'm hesitant in voicing my opinion in such matters, but In that case I just had to. good thing is after I educated her, she went home and finished them off. There is a walk in that is very convienient to my house, after twice being told my daughter needed antibiotics (she did not) I no longer go there. It seems to be the old country Dr's that are still over prescribing. It's a scary thing. 

I only use antibacterials in my house when someon has had a cold (I lysol all the doors and banisters) otherwise they are NOT welcome in my house. We are chemically killing our immune systems. I recently read that young mothers are so afraid of the sun that children are developing autoimmune problems cause they are not being exposed to enough sunlight to absorb vitamin D. Scary stuff. Everything in moderation.


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

Ship of fools said:


> The funny thing is more folks die from the reugular flu then they did with H1N1, my last flu shot was over 20 years ago and that was the last time I had the flu. But I do believe in childhood vacinations, having had polio at a very young age it is something I never want to see happen again and with the recent outbreaks in parts of the world where the vacination is available is scary to me, as we have recently seen with something like the outbreak of Whooping cough in California.ship...........................oh and I still remember the iron lung, its a sound you'll never forget


Sorry you suffered from polio. That can't be the most fun a kid can have. 

OTOH, there are now cases of polio in places like Africa, where it never existed before vaccination was introduced there. It was created by the vaccine. Many of the outbreaks of things like measles in the USA are also directly linked to vaccinations.

Good sanitation and access to healthy food and clean water is, without any doubt, the key to the eradication of most of these diseases. I remember studying this at university and the professor saying, "Ok, with clean water, such-and-such diseases are no longer a problem . . . which is why it is so important to continue to provide medication to developing countries". Huh? 1 + 1 = 5


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

mhammer said:


> I hope to goodness you aren't basing that on a recent article about the absenteeism rate in the federal government. The guy who generated the numbers reported in those articles that sprouted like mushrooms throughout the Canwest chain works downstairs from me and we were chatting about it the other day. Apparently he received an access-to-information request for the numbers without any indication of what they were going to be used for. He supplied them, as requested, and when he saw the article that came out, he was livid about how they had been misinterpreted.



I'm basing it on first hand experience with plants my company has throughout North American and around the world.

Attendance in our Canadian plant is the worst of all of our branches, by a wide margin.


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## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

I must be weird.. I get my flu shot (including last year and this year) and I never get "sick" after getting the shot.

I did get the real flu about 4 years ago, surprisingly the year I did not get the vaccine and it put me out for 4 days of work (being self employed that cost me a lot of income). I always get the flu shot now, I dont think its a conspiracy and I dont believe the negative hype.. but then again I dont put a lot of merit in a lot of controversial things in today's society. Just me 

AJC


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

I suppose if I were getting the flu shot I would want to believe it was OK and as well but I have done too much research on the topic over the years and I can't believe that anyone taking an objective look at BOTH sides of the debate (listening only to the PRO flu shot camp promoting and defending is not the same as scrutinizing both sides of the debate), would go near the stuff... good luck with that.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I dont know about the flu, which I got a shot for, but I just picked up my second chest cold in 2 months. Brutal


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## the_fender_guy (Jul 22, 2008)

I have compromised health and am in the group that is advised to be immunized. Flu shot works for me.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

That's why I get them too.


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## geezer (Apr 30, 2008)

I read somewhere recently that 60% of Canadians and 80% of Americans refused to get flu shots last year.Apparently the shots contain toxic additives that can cause severe neurological and other problems.This leads to the conspiracy theory that the economic leaders of the world are trying to set us up, to reduce the world population...making it easier to control.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

geezer said:


> I read somewhere recently that 60% of Canadians and 80% of Americans refused to get flu shots last year.Apparently the shots contain toxic additives that can cause severe neurological and other problems.This leads to the conspiracy theory that the economic leaders of the world are trying to set us up, to reduce the world population...making it easier to control.


well, you gotta admit, there is/was alot about that "vaccine" that's suspicious. i'm normally not one of those foil hat guys, but that one was impossible for me to ignore.


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## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> well, you gotta admit, there is/was alot about that "vaccine" that's suspicious. i'm normally not one of those foil hat guys, but that one was impossible for me to ignore.


And yet myself, my wife, my dad, and many others I know got the H1N1 shot last year and are surprisingly still alive, and well! Wow, those govnt guys will have to try a little harder next time 

AJC


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

ajcoholic said:


> I must be weird.. I get my flu shot (including last year and this year) and I never get "sick" after getting the shot.
> 
> I did get the real flu about 4 years ago, surprisingly the year I did not get the vaccine and it put me out for 4 days of work (being self employed that cost me a lot of income). I always get the flu shot now, I dont think its a conspiracy and I dont believe the negative hype.. but then again I dont put a lot of merit in a lot of controversial things in today's society. Just me
> 
> AJC


You were out only 4 days with the real flu? Did a doctor do the diagnosis or was it someone else?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I have a friend whose daughter who got a vaccination for one of the childhood diseases (mumps, I think). She has been a total invalid for 18 years, ever since she turned 14. She can't speak stand, is incontinent and is fed 99% by a tube. This is a known reaction with it happening to some every year. Thankfully, it is very rare, with only 1 in several million. However, it does show there are serious dangers to vaccinations.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

My reasoning for not getting the flu shot has nothing to do with any conspiracy theory.

1. I think we weaken our immune systems when we seek chemical intervention for every ailment. Anti-biotics and flu shots are what I'm referring to.

2. In spite of endless reassurances that there can be no connection, every single time I have received the shot (three times) I have become sick as hell the next week and it has lasted for a month. 

I haven't had the shot for two years now and guess what? I haven't been sick once in two years, or if I have, it has been so mild a case that I wasn't even sure I was sick.


If you need it, get it.


I don't.


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## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

FlipFlopFly said:


> You were out only 4 days with the real flu? Did a doctor do the diagnosis or was it someone else?


My wife is an MD (emergency & fam pract), if she said I had influenza, I believe her.

I am self employed. In the past 16 yrs I have owned and run my business, I have missed a whopping 5 1/2 days TOTAL of work. I go to work often when I should probably not, but if I dont work I dont get paid. That week, I was so out of it - I was bed ridden for 4 days before I could even get up and dress myself.

Anyhow, its all good. We live in a country where we can decline any medical treatment or what have you, and get it if we desire (to a point of course).

AJC


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Milkman said:


> My reasoning for not getting the flu shot has nothing to do with any conspiracy theory.
> 
> 1. I think we weaken our immune systems when we seek chemical intervention for every ailment. Anti-biotics and flu shots are what I'm referring to.


Flu shots and other vaccinations should NOT be confused with anti-biotics. Two fundamentally different mechansms.

Anti-biotics interfere with a bacteria's ability to successfully divide and multiply. There are many different mechanisms in that process that can be interfered with by an assortment of chemical means, but the bottom line is this: 10 minutes from now, you won't have as many of bacterium X as you _might_ have had in the absence of that chemical interference. Since bacteria have short life-spans (as individual cells), by reducing their ability to successfully divide, you reduce their overall number. This also gives your own immune system a leg up in terms of the scope of what it has to respond to.

In contrast, vaccinations are essentially "warm-ups" for your own immune system. The vaccine is a disabled version of the bacteria or virus of interest. As a foreign body, your immune system reacts to it, acquires the capacity to identify it and form antibodies to it, but without having to battle a "live" version of the bacterium/virus that might outpace your body's ability to combat it.

In theory, vaccines give your *body* more capabilities with respect to the range of pathogens it can successfuly recognize and attack in future. Anti-biotics, on the other hand, run the risk of giving the *pathogen* more capabilities, by being specific in a way that permits mutations of the bacterium that are unaffected by that particular anti-biotic to develop/evolve and flourish. That's how you get your "superbugs". Keep in mind that "evolution" works a whole lot faster when your lifespan is on the order of hours, rather than decades.

Most competent physicians will discourage people from going nuts with the anti-biotics, for that very reason. They will not be so discouraging when it comes to vaccinations.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

mhammer said:


> In contrast, vaccinations are essentially "warm-ups" for your own immune system. The vaccine is a disabled version of the bacteria or virus of interest. As a foreign body, your immune system reacts to it, acquires the capacity to identify it and form antibodies to it, but without having to battle a "live" version of the bacterium/virus that might outpace your body's ability to combat it.
> 
> In theory, vaccines give your *body* more capabilities with respect to the range of pathogens it can successfuly recognize and attack in future. Anti-biotics, on the other hand, run the risk of giving the *pathogen* more capabilities, by being specific in a way that permits mutations of the bacterium that are unaffected by that particular anti-biotic to develop/evolve and flourish. That's how you get your "superbugs". Keep in mind that "evolution" works a whole lot faster when your lifespan is on the order of hours, rather than decades.
> 
> Most competent physicians will discourage people from going nuts with the anti-biotics, for that very reason. They will not be so discouraging when it comes to vaccinations.


As logical as it does sound, the scientific theory behind vaccines as you describe it is not considered valid by many experts in the field. Pasteur himself recanted his ground-breaking hypothesis late in his life claiming he was under pressure from the pharma corp to push it through. 

as for doctors not discouraging patients to take vaccinations, that may be true, still, 75% of doctors polled in the US would not take the H1N1 themselves.

tin-foil hat off...


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Flu shots and other vaccinations should NOT be confused with anti-biotics. Two fundamentally different mechansms.
> 
> Anti-biotics interfere with a bacteria's ability to successfully divide and multiply. There are many different mechanisms in that process that can be interfered with by an assortment of chemical means, but the bottom line is this: 10 minutes from now, you won't have as many of bacterium X as you _might_ have had in the absence of that chemical interference. Since bacteria have short life-spans (as individual cells), by reducing their ability to successfully divide, you reduce their overall number. This also gives your own immune system a leg up in terms of the scope of what it has to respond to.
> 
> ...



And with all due respect to doctors, most of them will gleefully push pils for EVERY ailment as opposed to giving you a dose of truth.

I went to mine seven months ago and she pretty much ignored the reason I wanted to see her and prescribed blood pressure medicine. Yes, it was bloody high, but I was also too heavy and franklly, a couch potato.

I decided on a different course of action.

I lost 50 pounds by eating more sensibly and going to the gym.

My blood pressure is still a little high, but is drastically lower than it was. It's coming down and I suspect it will ultimately be normal.


Sometimes the easy answer is not the best answer.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Milkman said:


> And with all due respect to doctors, most of them will gleefully push pils for EVERY ailment as opposed to giving you a dose of truth.


I had the same doctor for about 40 years. He delivered my brother and I and for many years when we were young he would come to the house if we were sick. We were on a first name basis and he would usually send me home with some kind of pill. When he retired my file was passed on to a new doctor, not a young doctor, one that has been in practice for many years as well. But this guy pulls no punches and does not like handing out any pills. He listens to me and will test me if I complain about something but he tells it like it is. I went in a few weeks back because my ears have been itchy as hell and of course I am digging at them with Q-tips etc. He said "I will give you some stuff but if you are going to continue to dig at your ears with q-tips etc don't come in here and bother me" and he always adds "lose a few pounds too"

Thats actually when I got the flu shot. I was in there for the ears and they were jamming everyone so I just got it while I was there.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I had the same doctor for about 40 years. He delivered my brother and I and for many years when we were young he would come to the house if we were sick. We were on a first name basis and he would usually send me home with some kind of pill. When he retired my file was passed on to a new doctor, not a young doctor, one that has been in practice for many years as well. But this guy pulls no punches and does not like handing out any pills. He listens to me and will test me if I complain about something but he tells it like it is. I went in a few weeks back because my ears have been itchy as hell and of course I am digging at them with Q-tips etc. He said "I will give you some stuff but if you are going to continue to dig at your ears with q-tips etc don't come in here and bother me" and he always adds "lose a few pounds too"
> 
> Thats actually when I got the flu shot. I was in there for the ears and they were jamming everyone so I just got it while I was there.


I need a doctor like that. Sometimes the truth hurts a bit, but most doctors I've had have been too quick to prescribe drugs. Not ONCE has mine ever said, "you know, for someone your height, you should weigh......

There's no consideration of solving the root cause. Go in with a back problem...pills. Not, hey, your back is screwed up because you're carrying around 45 pounds of extra weight.

I'm amazed (although I shoudn't be) how many little "complaints" I used to have, seem to have completely disappeared in the past few months.

Things like heartburn, indigestion, low energy, headaches, dizzyness, shortness of breath, et cetera, et cetera used to come and go.

They're gone. No pills.

Ok, rant over.


I'm still not getting the shot.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Ironically, many doctors will complain that patients come to them _seeking_ a prescription, and won't leave until they've got one. And if your schedule permits you to allot 15min on average per patient, you write a prescription. And no, I'm not just talking about percodan or oxycontin. You can't just put it on the doctors. It takes two to tango, and often i's the patient who leads.

I know my doctor always looks for things we can do to avoid medication or upping dosage, and cheerfully accepts my unwillingness to maintain a particular dosage or medication. Certainly the number of patients that many doctors have to deal with in a day makes it highly unlikely they will have the clarity of thought to engage in treatment regimens that are more comprehensive and lifestyle-management-oriented, unless they've known you for a while, or you're one of those really good patients who provides useful information and solicits the conversation about lifestyle approaches. Most aren't.

Louis Pasteur under pressure from big pharma? in the 1890's? Sorry, not buying it. Pasteur missed the emergence of big pharma by about 25 years.

Vaccines *work*. That's why you don't have polio, and probably don't know anyone with it....or smallpox, or diptheria, or whooping cough, or.... Like anything we have come to rely on - cars, spouses, hydro, cable, Blackberrys, recipe books, TV listings - they aren't 100% perfect. And there may be some pathogens for which a workable vaccine is either difficult to find or ultimately unworkable for reasons we have yet to understand. We're still a ways away from an HIV vaccine despite several decades of trying. Hastily-prepared vaccines with less rigorous quality-control during preparation and/or distribution may not work quite as well. And since the key is to render the pathogen inactive but not SO different that your immune system develops antibodies to the wrong target, it can happen that once in a while the virus fragments can still "do" something. Immune systems can also vary, and as anyone with lupus can tell you, your own immune system can f** up your day pretty darn well on its own, thank you. So there is a risk it does nothing, and a risk it does something unexpected, and a risk something worse befalls you by NOT being vaccinated. Public health officials always weigh those three possibilities before they recommend a course of action.

As for doctors being unwilling to be vaccinated for H1N1:

1) Even when effective, flu vaccines can often knock you down for a coupla days; doctors can't afford that, and some justifiably said they would rather provide service than not.
2) Some were skeptical of that specific vaccine, given how hastily it was produced in response to the scare, even though not apprehensive about vaccines or even flu vaccines, in general. Professionals expect other professionals to put things through their paces, and when that seems not to be the case, they may wonder.
3) The word "estimate" all too often seems absent from the vocabulary of pollsters or people who peddle surveys. There is no mechanism to survey all doctors, but plenty of mechanisms to take a quick poll of an unrepresentative sample, and estimate what the preponderance of doctors might be thinking. To be able to provide uninterrupted care, particularly given their risk of exposure, health professionals were recommended to be among the first in line for vaccination, and a great many complied. Not because they were forced, but because they knew it was the only sensible thing to do.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Ironically, many doctors will complain that patients come to them _seeking_ a prescription, and won't leave until they've got one. And if your schedule permits you to allot 15min on average per patient, you write a prescription. And no, I'm not just talking about percodan or oxycontin. You can't just put it on the doctors. It takes two to tango, and often i's the patient who leads.
> 
> I know my doctor always looks for things we can do to avoid medication or upping dosage, and cheerfully accepts my unwillingness to maintain a particular dosage or medication. Certainly the number of patients that many doctors have to deal with in a day makes it highly unlikely they will have the clarity of thought to engage in treatment regimens that are more comprehensive and lifestyle-management-oriented, unless they've known you for a while, or you're one of those really good patients who provides useful information and solicits the conversation about lifestyle approaches. Most aren't.


In my case, as I presume you can tell, I do NOT go in looking for a prescription. I want to know what's wrong, what the root cause is and how I can correct it. chemical intervention is always my LAST resort, but I can assure you it's the frirst thing most doctors I've met will reach for.



mhammer said:


> 1) Even when effective, flu vaccines can often knock you down for a coupla days; doctors can't afford that, and some justifiably said they would rather provide service than not.


The flu itself has never "knocked me down for a couple of days"

If doctors feel that the effects of the vaccine are that bad, why the heck would my time and tasks be any less vital than theirs?

I'm sorry to seem argumentative. I just don't buy what most medical pros are selling. I'm of the opinion that there are better solutions than a syringe or some witches brew of chemicals in a pill.

We're not talking about polio here. This is the common flu.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Milkman said:


> I need a doctor like that. Sometimes the truth hurts a bit, but most doctors I've had have been too quick to prescribe drugs. Not ONCE has mine ever said, "you know, for someone your height, you should weigh......
> 
> There's no consideration of solving the root cause. Go in with a back problem...pills. Not, hey, your back is screwed up because you're carrying around 45 pounds of extra weight.
> 
> ...


I have all of those symptoms Mike, did they go away from losing the weight? Basically thats what the doc told me to do. I need to knock off about 20 for sure


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Milkman said:


> If doctors feel that the effects of the vaccine are that bad, why the heck would my time and tasks be any less vital than theirs?
> 
> I'm sorry to seem argumentative. I just don't buy what most medical pros are selling. I'm of the opinion that there are better solutions than a syringe or some witches brew of chemicals in a pill.
> 
> We're not talking about polio here. This is the common flu.


It's not that your time and task are less vital than theirs. It's that they're the portal for everyone else's health, and if there is the presumption of a pandemic you can't afford to lose doctors or nurses. That was the rationale for urging them to get vaccinated, but was also part of the rationale why some declined to do so. Other side of the same coin, really.

As for it being "the common flu", this whole H1N1 thing erupted because this influenza virus was a complete unknown quantity and epidemiologists were scared s***less by that. They had NO assurances that it would NOT be worse than other seasonal flus, and it did not appear to respond to the weapons we had at our disposal at the start of the outbreak. All signs pointed to this being another SARS or avian flu, or maybe both. And of course, one of the consequences of increased human migration is that no diseases stay in one place anymore. The odds of things equivalent to what blankets with smallpox did to First Nations happening several times a year are substantial now, and you can't just stop people from flying and airlines from going beyond their borders without serious economic repercussions.

Hindsight, of course, is cheap. H1N1 turned out to be a bit less than we were afraid it might be. But it was no Comet Kahoutek, by any means; people DID die from it. In part that was because we were prepared, and even if we over-reacted a bit, we reacted quickly and comprehensively, and I credit public health officials for that.

And no, you're not being argumentative. Far too much is medicalized these days. If it's not boner pills, it's make my kids behave pills, or its let me get back to work faster without looking sick pills, or its let me be a glutton pills, or let me be thinner pills. Sometimes people just need a smack upside the head and a dose of realism. Not all doctors are able to do that, or do it when called for.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I have all of those symptoms Mike, did they go away from losing the weight? Basically thats what the doc told me to do. I need to knock off about 20 for sure


In my case, yes. At the risk of offending folks who struggle with their weight, I am of the (untrained) opinion that a great many of the maladies we face can be directly or indirectly linked to overweight or obesity as the case may be.

My blood pressure is way down. I can't remember the last time I had heartburn, and I used to keep zantac or lodec next to my bed at and in my brief case at all times.

Sorry to derail this thread to an extent, but frankly, I wake up almost every day and stop and realize just how good I feel. If I didn't know better, I'd swear I was "on" something.

That doesn't even address the difference in self confidence and self image, which is considerable.

It's important to note, that I did NOT simply take the easy way out and starve myself or go on some fad diet. I go to the gym everyday I can, even when I'm on the road (which is pretty much every week). I've changed my mindset to realize that an hour in the gym is not punishment or pennance. It's the reward I deserve for a hard days work. The energy boost I get from that is very real.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

At the risk of sounding cynical, I think there may be a 4th reason why doctors are happy to prescribe - $ 

In Pasteur's supposed deathbed confession recanting the germ theory of disease he said: "If I could live my life over again, I would devote it to proving that germs seek their natural habitat---unhealthy tissue---rather than being the cause of unhealthy tissue." and: Claude Bernard (his colleague/rival) was right... the microbe is nothing, the terrain is everything." 

"Had it not been for the mass selling of vaccines, Pasteur's germ theory of disease would have collapsed into obscurity."--- E. Douglas Hume

"We must infer that at least some and probably all three of those Russian peasants died because of Pasteur’s vaccine, as did uncounted people later on....Only one thing is sure: ever since Pasteur developed his "vaccine," the cases of death from rabies have increased, not diminished."--Hans Ruesch


"There is no convincing scientific evidence that mass inoculations can be credited with eliminating any childhood disease. The greatest threat of childhood diseases lies in the dangerous and ineffectual efforts made to prevent them" ROBERT S. MENDELSOHN, M.D.

"The greatest lie ever told is that vaccines are safe and effective" Dr. Leonard G. Horowitz



The main thesis of the two positions regarding health and disease are outlined here: the Pasteurian Germ theory (main stream medicine) and the so-called 'cellular theory, I subscribe to the later:

GERM THEORY (PASTEUR) VS CELLULAR THEORY (BECHAMP).

1. Disease arises from micro-organisms outside the body VS Disease arises from micro-organisms within the cells of the body. 

2. Micro-organisms are generally to be guarded against VS  These intracellular micro-organisms normally function to build and assist in the metabolic processes of the body. 

3. The function of micro-organisms is constant VS The function of these organisms changes to assist in the catabolic (disintegration) processes of the host organism when that organism dies or is injured, which may be chemical as well as mechanical. 

4. The shapes and colours of micro-organisms are constant VS Micro-organisms change their shapes and colours to reflect the medium 

5. Every disease is associated with a particular micro-organism VS  Every disease is associated with a particular condition. 

6. Micro-organisms are primary causal agents VS Micro-organisms become "pathogenic" as the health of the host organism deteriorates. Hence, the condition of the host organism is the primary causal agent. 

7. Disease can "strike" anybody VS Disease is built by unhealthy conditions. 

8. To prevent disease we have to "build defences" VS  To prevent disease we have to create health.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Milkman said:


> In my case, yes. At the risk of offending folks who struggle with their weight, I am of the (untrained) opinion that a great many of the maladies we face can be directly or indirectly linked to overweight or obesity as the case may be.
> 
> My blood pressure is way down. I can't remember the last time I had heartburn, and I used to keep zantac or lodec next to my bed at and in my brief case at all times.
> 
> ...


I think I told you this in another thread but GOOD FOR YOU Milkman! You should be proud of yourself, it is no small or easy accomplishment to change your health and habits in the way that you did.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

bluesmostly said:


> I think I told you this in another thread but GOOD FOR YOU Milkman! You should be proud of yourself, it is no small or easy accomplishment to change your health and habits in the way that you did.



Thank you kindly. The rewards are evident every minute of the day. I worked out this morning before I headed to the airport. I'm walking on eggshells right now because I'm rushing back to Canada to be there when my first grandchild arrives this afternoon.

What a great year this has been for me!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

ajcoholic said:


> My wife is an MD (emergency & fam pract), if she said I had influenza, I believe her.
> 
> I am self employed. In the past 16 yrs I have owned and run my business, I have missed a whopping 5 1/2 days TOTAL of work. I go to work often when I should probably not, but if I dont work I dont get paid. That week, I was so out of it - I was bed ridden for 4 days before I could even get up and dress myself.
> 
> ...


When I saw your post, I thought to myself, this guy either runs his own business (as I do) or he didn't had a cold and not the flu. When you work for yourself it's often a whole different ballgame, is it not? Regards, Flip.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

FlipFlopFly said:


> When I saw your post, I thought to myself, this guy either runs his own business (as I do) or he didn't had a cold and not the flu. When you work for yourself it's often a whole different ballgame, is it not? Regards, Flip.



Definitely working for yourself or as a part of a small team changes how you assess illness.

I was a touring musician for many years and that's precisely where I developed the "suck it up" sttitude. When you take a sick day on tour, it's not only YOU who doesn't get paid. In the bands I was in, there was no such thing as hiring a sub. If someone couldn't make it to the stage, the whole band had the night off as well as the crew.

We learned to tough it out through all but the worst sicknesses.


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