# Am Sick of the Chinese Crap being Sold as High End!!!



## Heralchemy (Jul 15, 2009)

more and more i look at it the guitar parts are all Chinese Knock offs that are not worth a $hit. I'm know Japnese and Korean products had their learning curve but not just place Quantity over Quality. Ebay is swarming with crap... IE: the guitar body projects with the neck removed to sell at a higher $$.
Thanks for letting me Rant but unfortunately are $hit rolls down the product hill from China ... i don't care if i stir the $hit 9kkhhd. anyone want to put their 2 Cdn cents on this.


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## james on bass (Feb 4, 2006)

Well, it's not all crap. Yeah it's cheap and rarely awesome product, but it's affordable, and that's probably helping people get gear that may otherwise not even take up an instrument.

I've had quite a number of Chineses basses the last number of years, and they are comparable to any other low-end product line out there, perhaps even better. With the low cost, it's no big deal to modify and make it my own.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

it's the counterfeits that bother me. 

I refuse to buy a used Shure mic anymore, I don't know exactly how to tell the knock offs.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

dwagar said:


> it's the counterfeits that bother me.
> 
> I refuse to buy a used Shure mic anymore, I don't know exactly how to tell the knock offs.


HHmm, I was unaware that Shure mics were getting copied. Good to know.


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

*My Knock Off Rant*

The Chinese are masters are reverse engineering. This is where they take a good quality popular product and build machinery to make an exact replica. Companies will spend years and years in research and technology to build a great product and stay ahead of the competition. They'll strive to build their business on the reliability and quality of their product. Then along comes a Chinese company with a micrometer, caliper and lathe and builds a similar looking product. 

The problem lies in the raw materials that are used to create the product. The Chinese products may look the same but they sure don't last, or feel the same to a person well educated in the original product.

Quality of wood, steel, paints, laquers and electrical components are major problems in their replicas. Pick up a Chinese guitar compated to a real USA built. If you can't tell the difference, sorry but you have not been around guitars enough. Same goes with a bazzillion other products they make. The stuff they make just keeps using the earth's resources and filling up our dumps or land fills. We rip the coal, natural gas, copper, trees, iron, molybdenum ect...From our land and ship it to China to satisfy their insatiable appetite for our resources. Then they build this crap. We buy it, then chuck it in our dumps when it breaks after a year. This makes no sense and is not sustainable. We won't live long enough to see the effect but future generations with wonder...WTF happened?

That's my .02 cent now I'll step down from my soap box.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

GuitarsCanada said:


> HHmm, I was unaware that Shure mics were getting copied. Good to know.


check here to tell real from fake...

http://sm58sk.com/


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## Guest (Jul 25, 2009)

keithb7 said:


> Then along comes a Chinese company with a micrometer, caliper and lathe and builds a similar looking product.


This isn't limited to companies based overseas. Why, just across the road from me is a company that makes a fortune reverse engineering semiconductor products for "competitive analysis". A _fortune_.

As for the OP's rant: don't like, don't buy it. It wouldn't keep existing if it weren't selling.


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## Heralchemy (Jul 15, 2009)

iaresee said:


> As for the OP's rant: don't like, don't buy it. It wouldn't keep existing if it weren't selling.


i know but this Walmart Bargain minded Smuch's have to stop thinking "what you give me for $10 bucks (in Quantity) and look for something that could be a heirloom of sorts to pass on to Jr or your nephew or niece. 
The thing i admire about Europe..they look for quality first and not the bang of the Buck...have yet to see Walmart take hold in them there parts.
Basis in the rant is there is a pollution of Guitars on Ebay for sale and one guy promoting his guitar parts and guitars insists that there are lost manufacturing processes that only Asia has and doesn't exist here!?!?...that is so much Bull $hit. i am an industrial woodworker by trade..that ebay listing just did it for me...if i could i would copy the link and post it (but i don't want to promote the lair) ...as if we are not skilled labour and minds in the western hemisphere.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

It's unfortunate how the Chinese have hit just about every area of the market and to me that is where the problem lies with what efect it has had on the economy . The Japanese and Korean invasion of goods was mostly limited to electronics , autos , motorcycles and other goods such as musical instruments . I can remember in the early 60's how if it was made in Japan it was junk . There were lots of little transistor radios and small electronic items which were some of the 1st made in Japan items to surface in north Am . Toyota made ther auto's known in the beginning of the 70's and although they rusted out they were reliable and fun to drive . Their good continued to improve as the years went on and now made in Japan and to a lesser extent ( but getting there ) Korean goods are respected and desired because of the quality . 

Japan and Korea have stayed in a somewhat limited area in goods and I guess they did some copying too ( not counterfitting goods ) but if and when they do copy they have learned to do it right or better . China on the other hand just copies anything they want and seem to feel it is OK to counterfit and sell goods regardless of quality in a lot of areas of the market . They have pretty much flooded the market in every area of goods except automobiles although I understand that is coming too . I strongly feel there need to be more controls in place....hell there is even apple juice and honey coming from there hurting our own farmers . To me that is not right and it is the fault of companies here looking to make a bigger profit using inferior goods and produce at the cost of us losing our workforce and farmers .

I do think some Chinese goods will improve in quality but at this point it seems the Chinese are out to make anything and everything they can ( that suppliers here want them to make ) . It's more about quantity than quality and will be thay way for some time . 

I still try to by North Am goods whan I can find them , I feel better about supporting the workforce here :smilie_flagge17:


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Not everything made in China is crap--some of it is pretty good, but chances are it's not high end stuff.

Take for example my last guitar purchase, an Ibanez AF9995.

It's great looking guitar and a great sounding one that's fun to play.
Is it a high end archtop?
No--and I bought it knowing that, but is it a piece of crap?
No.

I wasn't looking to get a high end arch top--I can't afford them.
I play as a hobby and I wanted something different from what I have--I looked around for many months and most of what was in my price range that was something I was looking for was made in China.

There were exceptions, but the guitars didn't do it for me like the AF95 does.
They didn't play, sound or feel as good to me as that one does. So I went with it.

Chinese made goods are getting better--but yes they are not high end--and they do counterfeit a lot of stuff--that's the main beef I would have with made in China goods.


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

nitehawk55 said:


> I do think some Chinese goods will improve in quality


They're already starting to. Pick up a Tanglewood guitar in the $700+ range.


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## geezer (Apr 30, 2008)

Lots of products sold as "made in Canada"(or USA) have components manufactured in China.For example,just about all the cheap leather furniture sold as North American uses a cut and sew program with Chinese leather and labour ,then shipping it here to staple on and promote it as made here.Much of the leather is loaded with poisons they use in the tanning process.


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## bobb (Jan 4, 2007)

kat_ said:


> They're already starting to. Pick up a Tanglewood guitar in the $700+ range.


As well as Blueridge, Guild, Epiphone, Washburn. Chinese made acoustics from all of these companies have gained acceptance over the last few years.

There appears to be two different "Made in China" markets for musical instruments. There are the cheap counterfeits but there are also some very well made instruments under various brand names. The difference is that the companies producing the better quality guitars employ craftsmen who take pride in their work and QC is handled by the name brand(Saga, TML, Gibson/Epiphone, etc.) parent company.


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## Heralchemy (Jul 15, 2009)

bobb said:


> As well as Blueridge, Guild, Epiphone, Washburn. Chinese made acoustics from all of these companies have gained acceptance over the last few years.
> 
> There appears to be two different "Made in China" markets for musical instruments. There are the cheap counterfeits but there are also some very well made instruments under various brand names. The difference is that the companies producing the better quality guitars employ craftsmen who take pride in their work and QC is handled by the name brand(Saga, TML, Gibson/Epiphone, etc.) parent company.


the Violins made be over there make me want to Vomit. the wood selection and skill putting them together ....looks so rushed...but to each there own.
ok ...i'll cut and past what dumby on ebay worded in their auction:
"<quote>_Factory First A Stock, licensed by Fender, Stratocaster neck. This brand new $$$$$$$$ replacement strat neck is completely shaped, fretted, inlaid and finished in Oil Based Poly

These necks are made from the finest Northern Michigan or Canadian Hard Rock Maple and are comparable in quality and design to the best original factory necks. They use only the finest American and Canadian wood available.

Due to certain manufacturing processes that are no longer available here in the US, the wood is shipped all the way to Korea for processing, and then shipped back to $$$$$$$ for distribution. Why? Tone! Some material from over-seas is moist, and doesn't resonate well at all. Our product...AWESOME!

Adjustable truss rod at the headstock, installed pre slotted nut, dot position markers, side dot markers and nickel silver frets are installed.

Stock photos are used, but we do hand select and inspect each neck before we sell them . This ensures that the neck you get is just as stunning if not more impressive than the one in the photos.<quote>_

nontheless... not to point fingers a Korea ..their instrument making have a good reputation...but its total bull$hit that Asia has processes that can't be found in America manufacturing companies!


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

if their product is better than why no pic? any 12 year old with $50 can get a digital camera


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

I think "you get what you pay for" is a good general rule. If you do shop discriminately, I think some Asian guitars and cheapo modelling amps can be really decent quality. It's unreasonable to suggest all the stuff coming out of China is junk. I do usually buy U.S. and Canadian made gear. 1) because I like older amps and guitars. 2) because I think the business model of manufacturing half way around the world for lower wages and temporary profits is morally bankrupt. My $0.02 worth


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

keithb7 said:


> The Chinese are masters are reverse engineering. This is where they take a good quality popular product and build machinery to make an exact replica. Companies will spend years and years in research and technology to build a great product and stay ahead of the competition. They'll strive to build their business on the reliability and quality of their product. Then along comes a Chinese company with a micrometer, caliper and lathe and builds a similar looking product.
> 
> The problem lies in the raw materials that are used to create the product. The Chinese products may look the same but they sure don't last, or feel the same to a person well educated in the original product.
> 
> ...


This is more or less true, but it is *OUR* insatiable appetite for saving a few bucks and amassing *stuff* for the sake of it, that they are producing all these products. Wal-Marts are crammed with stuff that's made in China. Most of the garlic at the supermarket comes from China. If you bought a Roland Micro Cube that was made in Canada or the U.S. it would cost $300 or more, not $160. Western companies/corporations moved their factories to China and elsewhere to make big profits. When energy prices spiked in 2007-2008, it quite suddenly had an adverse effect on the profitability of this business scheme for many industries. Why do you think Fender put their prices up by 20-30% in the midst of one of the worst economic downturns in U.S. history? Sure China makes some real junk, but if you want to lay blame I think it's a lot closer to home than most care to admit.

Shawn.


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## starjag (Jan 30, 2008)

rugburn said:


> sure china makes some real junk, but if you want to lay blame i think it's a lot closer to home than most care to admit.


+1 +1 +1 +1!!!


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## Jimi D (Oct 27, 2008)

Rugburn said:


> This is more or less true, but it is *OUR* insatiable appetite for saving a few bucks and amassing *stuff* for the sake of it, that they are producing all these products. Wal-Marts are crammed with stuff that's made in China. Most of the garlic at the supermarket comes from China. If you bought a Roland Micro Cube that was made in Canada or the U.S. it would cost $300 or more, not $160. Western companies/corporations moved their factories to China and elsewhere to make big profits. When energy prices spiked in 2007-2008, it quite suddenly had an adverse effect on the profitability of this business scheme for many industries. Why do you think Fender put their prices up by 20-30% in the midst of one of the worst economic downturns in U.S. history? Sure China makes some real junk, but if you want to lay blame I think it's a lot closer to home than most care to admit.


Okay, so our Consumer Culture is unsustainable, morally bankrupt and generally distasteful when we pause to look at it closely. I say we should all go shopping and buy stuff to make ourselves feel better, then we can sit on the couch and cackle in moral superiority at all the attention-seeking dimwits inhabiting reality TV. After all, He Who Dies With The Most Toys, WINS!!! 

Or, we could try and change... maybe start by swearing off shopping at Walmart. For anything. Ever. :wave:


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## Heralchemy (Jul 15, 2009)

Jimi D said:


> Okay, so our Consumer Culture is unsustainable, morally bankrupt and generally distasteful when we pause to look at it closely. I say we should all go shopping and buy stuff to make ourselves feel better, then we can sit on the couch and cackle in moral superiority at all the attention-seeking dimwits inhabiting reality TV. After all, He Who Dies With The Most Toys, WINS!!!
> 
> Or, we could try and change... maybe start by swearing off shopping at Walmart. For anything. Ever. :wave:


i swore it off a long time ago as it seems (imho) to devalue what things really should be worth. Checks and balances...what can you buy at WalFart that can be heirloom worthy down the road!?


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Agreed about the Chinese counterfeits, totally illegal and usually really crappy in terms of quality. But there are some pretty decent instruments coming out of China. I have a Cort acoustic that's MIC and it's a pretty damn good guitar period. Perfect intonation, good playability, nice fit and finish and good sound. I also own a Martin and some MIA instruments, for those of you who are skeptical.. Heck, apparently my bass is made in Indonesia, it's a Squier VM P-Bass, the VM series seem to have a great rep for awesome quality at a low price. 

Anyways, not to fuel the fire, but I've seen a lot of MIA junk in the local shop these days. I won't name the store, because I don't wanna hurt their business, but this particular store I'm talking about has a bunch of absolutely crappy MIA strats. They all look, play and sound crappy. I've yet to see an absolute lemon from some MIA builders like PRS or any of the boutique builders. But I have seen a bunch of MIA lemons from Fender and Gibson. I guess that just goes to show that every company has drastically different quality control, regardless of in what country the guitar is made.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

noobcake said:


> Agreed about the Chinese counterfeits, totally illegal and usually really crappy in terms of quality. But there are some pretty decent instruments coming out of China. I have a Cort acoustic that's MIC and it's a pretty damn good guitar period. Perfect intonation, good playability, nice fit and finish and good sound. I also own a Martin and some MIA instruments, for those of you who are skeptical.. Heck, apparently my bass is made in Indonesia, it's a Squier VM P-Bass, the VM series seem to have a great rep for awesome quality at a low price.
> 
> Anyways, not to fuel the fire, but I've seen a lot of MIA junk in the local shop these days. I won't name the store, because I don't wanna hurt their business, but this particular store I'm talking about has a bunch of absolutely crappy MIA strats. They all look, play and sound crappy. I've yet to see an absolute lemon from some MIA builders like PRS or any of the boutique builders. But I have seen a bunch of MIA lemons from Fender and Gibson. I guess that just goes to show that every company has drastically different quality control, regardless of in what country the guitar is made.


I had a hell of a time finding a Strat. From a batch that included MIMs, American Standards and Highway 1s, I finally settled on a Highway 1. I honestly could not justify the American Standard's price tag over the others I tried for the most part. For me it's all about the sound and the feel of the guitar unplugged. Everything else can be changed/modified. Other than some of the CS models, the woods are the same in the Highway 1 line.


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## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

Heralchemy said:


> i swore it off a long time ago as it seems (imho) to devalue what things really should be worth. Checks and balances...what can you buy at WalFart that can be heirloom worthy down the road!?


sometimes you don't need heirlooms - sometimes you just need fruit of the looms - so when ya got a bunch of little rugrats runnin around - cash is in short supply....WAlFart looks pretty attractive....I'll continue to feel bad about it though


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## bobb (Jan 4, 2007)

It seems that acoustic instruments built for the world market are where Chinese build quality(yes, I said it) shines. Guitars and mandolins imported by Saga(Blueridge, Kentucky, Rover), The Music Link(Recording King, The Loar), Fender(Guild GAD series), Tanglewood, Eastman, etc. are not only gaining market share but acceptance within the community. As I mentioned in a previous post, the difference is that these import companies have people watching over the QC at all times to make sure that we good a good product, not just a cheap product. Nothing like "buying 95% of a Martin for 25% of the price". That is a common quote about Blueridge guitars

Personally, I find it funny that Fender appears to be doing a good job with quality control for their sub-brands like Gretsch and Guild, including the Chinese made instruments, but their own line has such a high proportion of dogs regardless of place of origin.

As for Gibson/Epiphone, the only products that I have seen with consistent quality are from Epiphone's Masterbilt acoustic guitar line, which is Chinese made.


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Rugburn said:


> I had a hell of a time finding a Strat. From a batch that included MIMs, American Standards and Highway 1s, I finally settled on a Highway 1. I honestly could not justify the American Standard's price tag over the others I tried for the most part. For me it's all about the sound and the feel of the guitar unplugged. Everything else can be changed/modified. Other than some of the CS models, the woods are the same in the Highway 1 line.


Haha that's funny, the EXACT SAME thing happened to my friend. He saved up and set out to buy an American Deluxe, but the highway ones in the store were flat out better guitars. So naturally, he got a highway one and saved some cash.:smile:


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Quality, like crapola, knows no political, geographic, cultural, or stylistic boundaries, only the boundaries of human taste and consumption.

Most of my acoustics, and all of my good ones, are Canadian. About half of my electrics are now Canadian too. It's a choice based on many things (quality, national pride, taste, acceptance, and interest, the self-defined "cool" factor) much like a collector of topical postage stamps, antique cars, or fine china. 

Something's existence in the market does not give it value, solely. What gives it value is the degree to which it is accepted, ie purchased. But that only speaks to consumer and monetary value, often due to marketing cons. Give it time to establish it's actual historically significant cultural, musical, and stylistic value. There's no question that the Les Paul and Telecaster have value by all definitions...the jury is still out on the value of cheap variations with sub par hardware, suspect fit and finish, goofy designs, questionable employment ethics, and a gullible buyer.

Peace, Mooh.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Mooh said:


> There's no question that the Les Paul and Telecaster have value by all definitions...the jury is still out on the value of cheap variations with sub par hardware, suspect fit and finish, goofy designs, questionable employment ethics, and a gullible buyer.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


They have value because they were the first on the market. Also the design's were very good. The labour saved by Leo's one piece neck with string trees was brilliant from a manufacturing perspective. The Telecaster has beauty from it's simplicity. 

Once the design got marketed and received acceptance the relatively low numbers of production also has fueled the rise in prices. 

Computers and Cnc has changed all that. There will be no new collectors IMHO. Still blows me away on just how many guitars that are being made in the world. Where are they all going? And now with internet there is whole new market created for the home builders like me. When you see guys on Ebay like reliablefender tearing apart guitars to feed that market makes you wonder if it has reached a saturation point. 

None of this offshore stuff is new from an instrument perspective. It's just fine tuning the manufacturing process.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I've had my eye on a couple of Tanglewoods for a while now--except I think I'll need to spend the money on a new computer instead--they've got some nice stuff.


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## Heralchemy (Jul 15, 2009)

zontar said:


> I've had my eye on a couple of Tanglewoods for a while now--except I think I'll need to spend the money on a new computer instead--they've got some nice stuff.


all them dam computers come from Red China...we is screwed if we go to war with them...no cloths no shoes no computers...the bloody truth kqoct


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## Jimi D (Oct 27, 2008)

Heralchemy said:


> all them dam computers come from Red China...we is screwed if we go to war with them...no cloths no shoes no computers...the bloody truth kqoct


Lessee... China owns sufficient US Treasury bonds to allow them to bankrupt the world's largest economy, utterly devalue the US dollar and subsequently destroy the national economies of pretty much all of Western Civilization in an afternoon should they be so inclined, and you're worried about not having computers to buy if we "go to war with them"...

China is arguably positioning itself to conquer the world without firing a shot - and its far better than even money at this point that they're going to do it. If you have kids that have any interest or natural ability with languages and you want them to be set for really exciting careers in the near future, get them learning how to speak Chinese...

kqoct indeed...


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