# good toronto guitar setup that actually includes fretwork?



## iblastoff (May 14, 2011)

i'm really surprised that most places will charge you $60 and all they do is restring your guitar/intonate and some minor nut adjustment.

are there any places that actually include some fret work done? (obviously not a refret but at least some fret dressing/crowning/polishing).

in the US, most shops will do all of that for even less than $60. up here its like they don't include anything at all besides extremely basic work.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

iblastoff said:


> i'm really surprised that most places will charge you $60 and all they do is restring your guitar/intonate and some minor nut adjustment.
> 
> are there any places that actually include some fret work done? (obviously not a refret but at least some fret dressing/crowning/polishing).
> 
> in the US, most shops will do all of that for even less than $60. up here its like they don't include anything at all besides extremely basic work.


A good reason to learn how to do this stuff on your own. Basic set-up, action, truss adjustment and intonation is actually pretty easy. I don't do fret or nut work because I don't have the right tools, but I would if I could. I started learning how to do this stuff because, like you, I was annoyed at paying $60 for what seemed like not that much work. Check out Dan Erlewine's Guitar Player Repair Guide it's pretty much the standard for guitar repair instruction books.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

GONE


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

gtrguy said:


> Personally I think that fret dressing and recrowning frets is well beyond the scope of a $60 setup. Here's my idea of a setup-
> 
> -truss rod adjustment
> -set bridge height
> ...


That sounds fair--giving a multi point checkup/inspection is still something most of us can learn--but if I had the cash to do so, I'd like my own personal guitar tech who did what I wanted to.

I've had guys lower my bridge when I've specifically said it's where I like it--but they don't listen and lower it and don't say why.
Then I try it, and it doesn't play as well.
So I end up raising it and it plays how I like it.

My main thing is that if you pay $60--then they should adjust it to how you like to play it.

I've never paid $60, but I've paid less in the past and after the frustration of the tech, if indeed he is a tech, not listening to what I like and just adjusting it to what he likes I got Erlewine's book, and do most of it myself.
Previously I had a friend who sometimes would adjust my guitars, and he did it how I liked it--but he didn't always have time, although I earned a few things from hm, and from trying out stuff myself on cheap guitars.

The best set up I ever got was when I bought a guitar from L&M many years ago--they said to play it for a couple of weeks and then bring it back for a free setup--and the guy had me play some stuff for him, and asked how I liked the guitar to play and he did a set up on that basis--and the guitar was even better to play.

Unfortunately he no longer works for L&M--sorry--I forgot his name.
I would pay that guy $60 to set up some of my guitars from time to time.


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## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

Generally speaking, a fret level and dress should be in addition to the cost of a set-up. Simply, it's about the time and labor involved. Shops have to cover their overheads (which vary between establishments). $60.00 for a set-up might be on the high side, but we're not told what it includes. If everything on gtrguy's list above is included (and strings) then I think it's fair value if done properly. Personal experience is that a fret level and dress can add at least an hour depending on the extent of work to be done.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

zontar said:


> The best set up I ever got was when I bought a guitar from L&M many years ago--they said to play it for a couple of weeks and then bring it back for a free setup--and the guy had me play some stuff for him, and asked how I liked the guitar to play and he did a set up on that basis--and the guitar was even better to play.


Yes, if you drop off your guitar for a set-up and they don't ask you to play it first, then its time to take your guitar somewhere else.


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## Lance Romance (Jun 4, 2009)

I've done this for years in stores and am now private. The realities of busy music store shops usually mean frets only get touched if they really offend, or are dealt with at extra cost over a setup. Fretwork isn't rocket science, just time-consuming. Time equals the all-consuming money in retail. The last shop I ran I usually averaged about 45 guitars myself in a a five-day work week. Just do the math.
Now I'm in private practice again, which allows me to do it the way it should be done. The first thing I check after neckbow and action height is fret level. My philosophy is that you cannot do a great setup WITHOUT STARTING FROM A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD! Once the fretwork is done properly, the setup is a breeze after that. However, it means that a setup takes me a minimum of one-and-a-half hours. I'm currently charging way too little for the time involved, but this being my first year in a new city am writing it off to getting established with a reputation for doing it the right way regardless of time. Come September 1st I'm raising my rates a bit (I did my books, ouch!!!), but am happy I'm doing the work the way I would do it for myself and take to a gig myself. I've been making guitars play killer for 40-odd years now; you raise your own standards not lower them. Most of my customers tell me straight out I don't charge enough money for the work I do, but I will not compromise work for money. 
People constantly complain about what a shop's hourly rate is. This is extremely skilled labour backed by decades of experience, with a substantial investment in excellent tools and a shop to work in. Half of the hours I spend in a week are answering peoples phone calls and emails, so that drops your hourly rate to half right there. Have you had to call a plumber recently? Most of these guys have way less experience than me, less investment in tools, and survive primarily because when your toilet is running all over the floor you will pay whatever to make it stop. When they have you by the cojones your heart and mind will follow (ask any Marine). There's also shop supplies: I bought three setups worth of steelwool and sandpaper this past year. Sourcing parts is an unbelievable drain on your time. I don't charge people to drive all over town, or in some cases to Toronto (2+ hours). Unfortunately the local music stores here seem to consider parts more of a nuisance than anything, so I go where I have to to get the right stuff. Maybe I'm old-fashioned, or just plumb crazy, but I actually enjoy the immediate gratification of taking someone's guitar from barely-functional to way better than the manufacturer ever intended (with some rare exceptions). Another thing people miss the point on is that almost without exception every single instrument out there, particularily the new ones, needs professional setup work. The first casualty of cost-cutting in todays hyper-competitive guitar market is human labour, spelled simply "setup". Guitars cannot be setup by machines. Even Gibson's Plek Pro fretdressing and nut-cutting machines which cost upwards of $130,000. each are still only as good as the people programming them, which is why 95% of new Gibsons need to have the nut slots recut right from the factory because they're too tight and the guitar won't go into tune or stay in tune. This includes the Custom Shops and the Historics. Not singling Gibson out, everyone on the Net already does that, but they seem to be the worst offender. I can understand it on a $150. Pacific Rim guitar, but not on an $8000. CS offering.
The single best thing a guitarist can spend a little money on is a professional setup. The return on your paltry investment is a lifetime of playing satisfaction. Don't buy that aftermarket pickup, get TWO of your guitars setup properly. Why do I hear "Gee, why did it take me so long to get this done?" so often.
Rant over. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.-Eric Pykala/"Lance Romance"


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Lance Romance said:


> *Half of the hours I spend in a week are answering peoples phone calls and emails, so that drops your hourly rate to half right there.*
> 
> The single best thing a guitarist can spend a little money on is a professional setup. The return on your paltry investment is a lifetime of playing satisfaction. Don't buy that aftermarket pickup, get TWO of your guitars setup properly.


Sounds like someone could use some office help.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

I was on a tear around here recently, about the guitar service industry in Ontario and what a joke I think it is in general.

It’s been suggested by some that if you can’t leave your guitar at a “pro” tech (and he won’t be a pro unless he’s real expensive and has a 4 month wait list) that you’re foolish, needless to say I disagree and in the posts above are some good stat’s to consider.

Above is a good list for what should be included in a basic set up; 

-truss rod adjustment
-set bridge height
-set intonation
-file nut slots if needed
-clean volume and tone pots and switches
-clean and polish fretboard and frets
-tighten tuning machines, lubricate if necessary
-tighten strap buttons if necessary
-polish guitar
-vacuum guitar case

Let’s use the hourly rate that’s been thrown around of $60 (for that money the guy would be properly equipped).

Here’s my issue – I can do at least 2 of those basic set-ups per hour and so could any “pro”, therefore I could see that basic set up costing $36.00 (including a set of strings), but not $60.

At the end of the day though, the “pro” spends at least half the day doing what’s been mentioned in the world’s longest paragraph above, and someone has to pay…

So to my original point, if the guitar service industry would join the modern business world, the people in the business would actually make money and a lot of players would be much better off – which is not the case in Ontario right now, hence the constant need for threads entitled “where to find a good tech in…”. 

Me, I’d remove my liver with a shrimp fork before giving my cash to a “pro” at the end of a 4 month wait.


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## Lance Romance (Jun 4, 2009)

Jimmy, sorry I forgot to hit Enter.
My turnaround is "while you wait" or "next day".
Office help costs money too.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Lance Romance said:


> Jimmy, sorry I forgot to hit Enter.
> My turnaround is "while you wait" or "next day".
> Office help costs money too.


While you wait or next day, the only way to go for set-ups, good on you.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Jimmy_D said:


> While you wait or next day, the only way to go for set-ups, good on you.


Agreed, any tech that can get you your instrument back the same day or next is a definite keeper! I get that stores are busy, but really, 2 weeks? 4 weeks? Are you kidding me? That's why I decided to teach myself how to do the basics. Sure, if I need crowning or leveling, I'll send it to a pro and wait, but for a seasonal truss adjustment? No way!


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## iblastoff (May 14, 2011)

gtrguy said:


> Personally I think that fret dressing and recrowning frets is well beyond the scope of a $60 setup. Here's my idea of a setup-
> 
> -truss rod adjustment
> -set bridge height
> ...


See to me, there is absolutely no real work here. Maybe if getting a fresh cut bone nut were thrown in there then ok. Cleaning and polishing fret board? Tighten strap buttons? Vacuum case? Intonation? 90% of this list requires absolutely no skill or time. I fail to see how this could possibly cost $60 and 2 weeks of waiting. 

Everyone i know in the US gets setup that's less than $60 and receives way more actual (fret) work done.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

GONE


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

iblastoff said:


> See to me, there is absolutely no real work here. Maybe if getting a fresh cut bone nut were thrown in there then ok. Cleaning and polishing fret board? Tighten strap buttons? Vacuum case? Intonation? 90% of this list requires absolutely no skill or time. I fail to see how this could possibly cost $60 and 2 weeks of waiting.
> 
> Everyone i know in the US gets setup that's less than $60 and receives way more actual (fret) work done.


You may think intonation, bridge height and truss adjustments take no skill, but if that's the case, give your guitar to someone who's never done it before and see what happens. Sure, these things are relatively easy, but hey, if they're that easy, do it yourself. You don't want to do it yourself? Then don't gripe about prices.

Having said that, I had a tech for a while a few years back that did regular setups for $30 and turnaround was reasonable (not great, but not 2+ weeks either, usually 1 week or so). Unfortunately, he moved out of the city. Since then, I dropped $30 on the Erlewine book and never looked back because I also thought $60 was too much. 

Additionally, I'd pretty pretty leery of any tech that said they'd set up my guitar and do fret leveling and crowning for $60. I can just imagine what kind of shape it would be in when I got it back. Gouges in the fretboard, uneven frets, etc. I'm sure there's a couple magical fairies out there who work for peanuts, but you generally get what you pay for.

Lastly, the reason leveling and crowning isn't included is because it's not regular maintenance. How often do you set up a guitar? Once a year, twice? Twice is pretty average, with seasonal changes in this climate. Do you really need your frets done twice a year? If so, what the heck are you doing to them? If not, pretty soon you'll be griping about having to pay for fretwork when it's not necessary.


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## Lance Romance (Jun 4, 2009)

Some good points here. When I see an instrument the_* first *_time I try to what I call "optimize" it. This means getting the fretwork level and generally doing everything that is neccessary to play really well. From that point on, it might need a seasonal trussrod adjustment, and that's pretty much it. I do trussrod adjusts while-you-wait for free, as it allows me to stay in touch with my clients, but more importantly prevents them doing some really dumb things to their guitar. I also recommend the Erlewine book to everybody, because it prevents them from doing a lot of things they're not ready to do. It actually saves me work in the long run not having to undo some guys botchjob, no matter how good his intentions. 

Another good point here about education and humidity. I have a printed handout for people about keeping their guitars happy in the extremes of Canadian weather which is rough on guitars. From about March to July about 70% of the work I do is directly related to things caused my lack of humidity. This is all preventable with a little knowledge and conscientious use of proper guitar humidifiers. Most people just don't know, and a lot of shops don't bother to educate them.

I'm not trying to come off here as some repair demi-god, but I've been in the Biz so long that now I'm private I'm not going to make the same mistakes the other guys do. The situation is one I'm trying personally to help fix, but the fact remains that skilled tech help is few and far between. I hope forums like this one can help educate people and at least send them to the competent, caring people.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

bw66 said:


> Yes, if you drop off your guitar for a set-up and they don't ask you to play it first, then its time to take your guitar somewhere else.


Well otherwise the tech is going to set it either
1-the way he likes it
2-Some sort of "Standard" he adheres to
either of which may not work for you.

or 
3-the easiest/laziest way that involves the least amount of work.


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## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

iblastoff said:


> See to me, there is absolutely no real work here.* Maybe if getting a fresh cut bone nut were thrown in there then ok*. Cleaning and polishing fret board? Tighten strap buttons? Vacuum case? Intonation? 90% of this list requires absolutely no skill *or time*. I fail to see how this could possibly cost $60 and 2 weeks of waiting.
> 
> Everyone i know in the US gets setup that's less than $60 and receives way more actual (fret) work done.


Absolutely no disrespect intended, but based on these two statements, you've never done you own set-up or cut a bone nut. Correct?


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## Lance Romance (Jun 4, 2009)

Yeah, I'll make a new bone nut, minimum hour-and-a-half to do properly and just throw it in. My time is worth nothing.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Lance Romance said:


> Yeah, I'll make a new bone nut, minimum hour-and-a-half to do properly and just throw it in. My time is worth nothing.


For someone who's never done it and think it's just filing 6 slots into a pre-cut blank, it seems like something that shouldn't take more than 10 minutes. Of course, I can't imagine what kind of tuning stability a guitar with a nut cut that carelessly will have, but maybe that's the kind of setup the OP is looking for 

As I mentioned, I do all my setups and electronic work, but it takes me forever. I'm no pro, so I don't have the experience, but doing a setup usually take a while for me. At least a couple hours, especially if I'm adjusting the truss, which need time to settle every time you move it, so it might take a bit before the results are evident. I don't care though, I enjoy doing it and I know I'm getting better at it too. Saves me having to take it in and saves me having to wait on someone else to do a job I know I can do.

I spent a Sunday a couple weeks ago setting up and gutting/installing new electronics on two guitars. The whole thing took me 7 hours or so. I'm sure a pro would do it much faster, but it would still take time.

There's a giant divide between what you _think_ something is worth and how much it is _actually_ worth when you take into account everything that goes into it.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

No need to panic, I think we all know you can’t get the bone nut thrown in with the set up (as noted above) and expect it to cost $60 here in Canada, unless you’re dreaming, especially if it’s being done by a legit business.


But let’s hear what the pro’s have to say about what the new nut and set-up is really worth.


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## n.milburn (Apr 5, 2011)

Lance Romance said:


> Yeah, I'll make a new bone nut, minimum hour-and-a-half to do properly and just throw it in. My time is worth nothing.


What Lance said is right, although I think an hour is correct.

Don't forget, a set of nut files will cost you a pretty penny (check out stew-mac for pricing), as does a belt sander (for making bone nuts & saddles - well, you can make them with sandpaper, and I have done several this way, but it sure takes a lot more time).

Oh, and cutting nut slots, for example, is not quite as straight ahead as one would think. Cut them poorly, then you gotta get someone to make you a new bone nut.


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## n.milburn (Apr 5, 2011)

hollowbody said:


> For someone who's never done it and think it's just filing 6 slots into a pre-cut blank, it seems like something that shouldn't take more than 10 minutes. Of course, I can't imagine what kind of tuning stability a guitar with a nut cut that carelessly will have, but maybe that's the kind of setup the OP is looking for
> 
> As I mentioned, I do all my setups and electronic work, but it takes me forever. I'm no pro, so I don't have the experience, but doing a setup usually take a while for me. At least a couple hours, especially if I'm adjusting the truss, which need time to settle every time you move it, so it might take a bit before the results are evident. I don't care though, I enjoy doing it and I know I'm getting better at it too. Saves me having to take it in and saves me having to wait on someone else to do a job I know I can do.
> 
> ...


Very well said.


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