# No more fake Chinese Martins



## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

C.F. Martin & Co., Inc. Regains Ownership of the Company's Trademark Registration in China


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Now to see if it works. Let's see if Gibson and Fender are next.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Time will tell.


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## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

Hope this does have some impact. I absolutely loathe Chinese knock off guitars.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Lord-Humongous said:


> Hope this does have some impact. I absolutely loathe Chinese knock off guitars.


I've always read about people loathing Chinese knock offs in terms of guitars and pedals and much more, but how come nobody gives a damn when somebody from a Western country decides to copy and sell a famous amp circuit?


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

isoneedacoffee said:


> I've always read about people loathing Chinese knock offs in terms of guitars and pedals and much more, but how come nobody gives a damn when somebody from a Western country decides to copy and sell a famous amp circuit?


Good point. Kind of like a recipe you can't hide how it was cooked. I don't know how they draw the line.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

isoneedacoffee said:


> I've always read about people loathing Chinese knock offs in terms of guitars and pedals and much more, but how come nobody gives a damn when somebody from a Western country decides to copy and sell a famous amp circuit?


It's one thing to sell a 5e3 clone and call it Joe Bloe's Amp, or a strat copy and call it Joe Bloe's Strat-style Guitar. It's something else to put a Fender logo on it and try to pass it off as a real Fender product.

I think that's where people draw the line. At least, that's where I draw it.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

isoneedacoffee said:


> I've always read about people loathing Chinese knock offs in terms of guitars and pedals and much more, but how come nobody gives a damn when somebody from a Western country decides to copy and sell a famous amp circuit?


I have a bit of a bad taste on knock offs too, but amps are a bit different. Do I have this right?.... 

The first purpose built commercially available guitar amps were made by Leo Fender. He copied that circuit almost directly from a tube book. Marshall then copied Fenders, using different tubes as they are different in the UK. From there it was just a trickle down to all other manufacturers, adding and subtracting tone circuits, gain stages, reverb and the like, upping power, changing from tubes to transistors, then to modelling computers over the years, but a lot of folks would still swoon over getting one of those original ones, which, in itself, was a copy of something, used in a different manner.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

isoneedacoffee said:


> I've always read about people loathing Chinese knock offs in terms of guitars and pedals and much more, but how come nobody gives a damn when somebody from a Western country decides to copy and sell a famous amp circuit?


Similar to @Jim DaddyO , I would ask if you were referring to Leo or Jim or who. I don't think anyone really knows who wrote the book they all used. 

As for trademark control stopping Chinese fakers, I don't believe breaking the law is a big concern for them. This will have zero impact on the fakes being built and sold, IMO.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

High/Deaf said:


> Similar to @Jim DaddyO , I would ask if you were referring to Leo or Jim or who. I don't think anyone really knows who wrote the book they all used.
> 
> As for trademark control stopping Chinese fakers, I don't believe breaking the law is a big concern for them. This will have zero impact on the fakes being built and sold, IMO.


I think you are very likely correct in your assumption.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

High/Deaf said:


> Similar to @Jim DaddyO , I would ask if you were referring to Leo or Jim or who. I don't think anyone really knows who wrote the book they all used.
> 
> As for trademark control stopping Chinese fakers, I don't believe breaking the law is a big concern for them. This will have zero impact on the fakes being built and sold, IMO.


I hate to agree, but I think this holds a lot of truth


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## redman (Oct 18, 2016)

I don't think it will stop them either.who knows where they are getting their wood from aswell.


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## jimmy c g (Jan 1, 2008)

laws and regulation cant stop people from speeding, cant see anything stopping criminals from a profitable scam


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## Gary787 (Aug 27, 2011)

The target market is the USA. It's all about status and justification. Someone sees someone with a $45,000 D45 or Rolex watch or Michael Jordan runnning shoes or Channel handbag they think fame. When you get up close it's all crap. If you call them out they are defensive.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Marshall then copied Fenders, using different tubes as they are different in the UK.


Pretty sure it was Fender copying Marshall. This is how the Bassman was born. However, whoever stole from who, it really can't be said that anything was exactly copied as everything Fender or Marshall did it can be said there were enough circuit differences and voice differences to say that nothing was an exact copy. Just a different take on a similar design.


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## [email protected] (Jul 5, 2006)

What does this mean exactly, I know there is a company pedalling Sigma by Martin made in China 
Martin now has nothing to do with Sigma, heard they lost the rights or something like that.
Is this related?


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## jimmy c g (Jan 1, 2008)

I believe the op is referencing actual fakes, name and all, not copies with other company names or am I wrong ?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> Pretty sure it was Fender copying Marshall. This is how the Bassman was born. However, whoever stole from who, it really can't be said that anything was exactly copied as everything Fender or Marshall did it can be said there were enough circuit differences and voice differences to say that nothing was an exact copy. Just a different take on a similar design.


The JTM 45 first came out in 1963. It used 5881 power tubes rather than 6L6's. @Jim DaddyO got it right.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

From Wikipedia:

_The Sigma line was discontinued by C.F. Martin & Co. in 2007.

In 2011 the German company "AMI Musical Instruments GmbH" purchased the rights to the name and relaunched Sigma Guitars again, this time being produced in China.[1]

Since the U.S. rights to the Sigma brand name and trademark had been allowed to lapse by C.F. Martin & Co. prior to selling the brand to AMI, and had since been picked up by St. Louis Music of Missouri, AMI is not allowed to use the brand name "Sigma" in the U.S. for their current line of guitars. They are distributed and sold in the U.S. as *Kindred Guitars.* The sole current U.S. distributor is now Six String Brokerage LLC, Nazareth, Pa._


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> What does this mean exactly, I know there is a company pedalling Sigma by Martin made in China
> Martin now has nothing to do with Sigma, heard they lost the rights or something like that.
> Is this related?


The Sigma guitars currently being built by Saga have no mention of Martin on them.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

I just bought a Sigma made in China, and I think you would have to be a whole lot better guitarist than I am to tell the difference. Its very impressive, even down to the Grover butterbean tuners.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

How many Martin's have you played? I've directly compared a 2014 Martin D-18 and a Sigma DR1-ST and there was no comparison.

It was like comparing a Ford Fiesta to an Audi.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

I guess I'm lucky enough to have never played a "real" Martin. So, as a player, I am pretty impressed by the Sigma.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

All this started when a company in China registered itself as CF Martin and began selling their own Martin Guitars.-this Chinese CF Martin had no connection to the real company and the intent was to deceive.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Here's the comparison I did.


__
https://soundcloud.com/id%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fsoundcloud.com%252Fguncho%252Fmartin-d-18-vs-sigma-dr1-st-vs-yamaha-fg441s%252Fs-K9vgy%3Bsecret_token%3Ds-K9vgy%3Btrack_id%3D298641798


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

rollingdam said:


> From Wikipedia:
> 
> _The Sigma line was discontinued by C.F. Martin & Co. in 2007.
> 
> ...


Perhaps but there are a number of Sigma Guitars for sale in eBay in the USA. Here is just one you'll find in the link below.

Sigma SD18 Acoustic Dreadnought Guitar | eBay


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Guncho said:


> How many Martin's have you played? I've directly compared a 2014 Martin D-18 and a Sigma DR1-ST and there was no comparison.
> 
> It was like comparing a Ford Fiesta to an Audi.


Are those supposed to be comparative models? I'm just wondering as I have seen Sigma SD18's being offered for sale.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

The only differences in the specs I can see between the Sigma DR1-ST and the Sigma DM-18 are laminate rosewood back and sides and chrome die cast tuners vs laminate mahogany back and sides and Grover die cast tuners.

The only difference I can see between the DM1-ST and the DM-18 are the tuners.

Spec wise looks like the just add an "18" to the DM1-ST , some nicer tuners and used black binding instead of white binding oh and an extra $160 MSRP.

Sigma Guitars - The Sigma story goes on ...: DR-1ST
Sigma Guitars - The Sigma story goes on ...: DM-1ST
Sigma Guitars - The Sigma story goes on ...: DM-18

The key point was the person I was responding to said you'd have to be a really good guitarist to hear the difference between a Sigma and a Martin and hopefully by my audio example I have disproved that.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

Sounds to me like you paid too much for a Martin.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Are you listening on laptop speakers? It's night and day between the Martin and the other two on my Mackie studio monitors.


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