# Car Recommendations?



## Guest (Mar 20, 2010)

I think it's time to consider a new vehicle. I'm pouring too much money into my '01 Pathfinder to keep it running.

Help me with some recommendations. Want a car this time. Not an SUV. I'm thinking a wagon would be nice. Subaru WRX hatch maybe or a Volvo XC70? Anyone drive a Passat Wagon? Nice?

Bigger sedans are interesting too. A Pontiac G8 is pn my used list to hunt down.

Has to hold 2 car seats. A double stroller. 2 adults.

I prefer used to new. New would have to be a heckuva deal. Otherwise I like 1-2 year old used cars.

Let's hear those recs!


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

My only knowledge of those specific models is that people I know who have the Subaru's swear by them.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2010)

torndownunit said:


> My only knowledge of those specific models is that people I know who have the Subaru's swear by them.


Yea. Two coworkers drive 'em and they're super nice. Might also look at the Outback. Little bigger than the WRX, but not as much fun to drive.


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## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

my wife drive VW's.....and they have been positively fantastic.....they look nice - they ride nice - the interior is shared with Audi in its look / feel and material (we've owned an A4 - no different than the Jetta)...she has an EOS now and it's really nice.....so the passat wagon would be a nice option.........I'm pretty sure a golf will hold what you're talking about too - they're a lot "cooler" than a wagon..get one with the 2 litre turbo .....VERY nice acceleration.....or a TDI would also be cool


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Chrysler has an unbelievable deal on caravans right now. 7500 dollars cash back - the model I tried yesterday has a base price of 27845 (A Grand Caravan SE FWD with the usual appointments) has an after taxes/shipping price of 25313, which works out to 208.94 bi-weekly for 60 months with bank rate financing. That's better than most mid-size wagons!


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2010)

Can't do a minivan. Just can't.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

We got a Toyota Rav4 because there are no local Volvo, VW, or Subaru dealers. (Best car I ever owned was a '74 Volvo, my friends with VWs and Subarus love them, and we love the look of them.) Those would have been our first choices but we've been more than happy with the Toyota. Last weekend we noticed a lot of Ford Flexs on our trip to Ottawa, and I dig the sort of updated International Harvester Scout/Rambler Wagon vibe. I'd like to test drive the Flex. Also noticed a lot of Volvos.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Just go out and do some test drives. I once tested 30 cars in 30 days to pick one, and the one I picked wasnt even on my list.............


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

iaresee said:


> Can't do a minivan. Just can't.


I hear ya! Once you go minivan, it's hard to go back, at least while you have growing kids. I didn't buy the van because I wanted to look for something less "middle aged!" Unfortunately, I probably will end up with it.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

iaresee said:


> Might also look at the Outback. Little bigger than the WRX, but not as much fun to drive.


You haven't tried an Outback XT then. Standard 2.5l boxer engine but turbocharged to 250HP. The Legacy GT wagon has the same specs. For $200, I addded an AccessPort (plug-in engine tuner) to mine which bumped it up to around 300HP. My XT's past warranty now so I could add an uppipe/downpipe (another $200 or so) for 30 more horses. Anyway, I've been enjoying mine for 4 years now and it's also been i_nsanely_ reliable.

Actually, come to think of it, I purchased mine from someone in Connecticut and saved a _bundle_, at least $10,000 less than anything I could find here. The dollar's near parity now. Just sayin....


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I'm not going to answer this because car recommendations can get as nasty a politics or religion.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2010)

StevieMac said:


> You haven't tried an Outback XT then. Standard 2.5l boxer engine but turbocharged to 250HP. The Legacy GT wagon has the same specs. For $200, I addded an AccessPort (plug-in engine tuner) to mine which bumped it up to around 300HP. My XT's past warranty now so I could add an uppipe/downpipe (another $200 or so) for 30 more horses. Anyway, I've been enjoying mine for 4 years now and it's also been insanely reliable.
> 
> Actually, come to think of it, I purchased mine from someone in Connecticut and saved a bundle, at least $10,000 less than anything I could find here. The dollar's near parity now. Just sayin....


Cool. I had no idea you could get it with the turbo 2.5! There's a 2 yr old Legacy I might just have to take a look at...


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2010)

Robert1950 said:


> I'm not going to answer this because car recommendations can get as nasty a politics or religion.


I'm pretty open minded. Except when it comes to minivans.


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## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

MY wife has an 07' Subaru Forester. Nice car, a little small for me but I am used to driving full size trucks all my life. The Subaru is her 2nd, and we got it with the standard 2.5 litre non-turbo engine. Speed and pickup are excellent, you can accelerate more than fast enough and its very sporty to drive. The all wheel drive is amazingly good, especially here in Northern Ontario with the winter roads. I drove the Subaru to work and back (300 km daily) when gasoline was up to $140+ 2 years ago... I liked it but I wish I had more leg room. The newer models (2008 and up) are supposed to have a bigger cockpit.

Or you can do like me, I am looking at a 2010 Ford Expedition Max - to replace my 2002. 

AJC


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## Andy (Sep 23, 2007)

Don't touch Volvo. Anything newer than a 240 racks up astronomical repair costs, and the all wheel drive system in the XC70 can't even touch that of Honda, let alone other luxury manufacturers. I'm not sure if they've fixed it by now, but their turbo motors (which are in almost everything) tended to be very prone to uneven wear in the cylinders. Our 940 Turbo developed a nasty knock at only 200k, when the naturally aspirated motor in our 740 was solid right until 400k.

My recommendation? A Honda CR-V (I know, it's a small SUV, but it drives and rides like a car -- I drive a 2003 on a daily basis). Great on gas, holds an insane amount of stuff, very safe, bulletproof AWD system. I'll be driving one as long as Honda makes them.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Lot of used Toyota's going around right now, cheap


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2010)

Andy said:


> Don't touch Volvo. Anything newer than a 240 racks up astronomical repair costs, and the all wheel drive system in the XC70 can't even touch that of Honda, let alone other luxury manufacturers. I'm not sure if they've fixed it by now, but their turbo motors (which are in almost everything) tended to be very prone to uneven wear in the cylinders. Our 940 Turbo developed a nasty knock at only 200k, when the naturally aspirated motor in our 740 was solid right until 400k.


Thanks for the tip. I've always thought the XC was a nice car but wasn't sure how they were to repair. Getting something, this time around, that's affordable to repair is important. Scratch the Volvo then. 



> My recommendation? A Honda CR-V (I know, it's a small SUV, but it drives and rides like a car -- I drive a 2003 on a daily basis). Great on gas, holds an insane amount of stuff, very safe, bulletproof AWD system. I'll be driving one as long as Honda makes them.


 Yes. Definitely going to look at the CRV. Not too keen to stay in a box-y vehicle. I kind of miss having fun in something a little sleeker when the kids aren't tagging along. But it'll get checked out for sure.


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## Guest (Mar 20, 2010)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Lot of used Toyota's going around right now, cheap


 And if the accelerator sticking doesn't kill me, surely death-by-boring-vehicle will?


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## snacker (Jun 26, 2008)

i have a '08 Subaru Forrester and it's great! - has lots of room for gear and drives really nicely


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

how about a dodge magnum? 










or maybe the mazda speed 3?


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2010)

cheezyridr said:


> or maybe the mazda speed 3?


Sweet car. Probably out of my price range (


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Had a Forester for a few years, very good vehicle. I liked it much better than all the other vehicles in that category (CRV, RAV 4, and other SUV's) because it was the only one with AWD, which is way better than any 4WD system for getting out of trouble, and becasuse of the motor design - it handles like a car instead of a truck - much more fun to drive. Also, it can pack alot of gear into it. I prefer the look of the Outback though, same engine and frame with a different body. 

Subaru is a bit overpriced for the basic type of vehicle that it is imo, but its a winner of a design for sure. 

Actually Ian, I don't know what your budget is but the Mazda 3's are alot cheaper than Subaru's. 

Also worth a look picking up a vehicle in the US, they are significantly cheaper. I know a guy who bought his Audi out of NY, He paid about 42K for what would have cost him around 70K in Canada. the dealer there said he sends 20 cars a week to Canadian customers. 

Enjoy, shopping for vehicles is as much fun as shopping for gear! I am sniffing around for a new vehicle too. Like you, I prefer to buy something a year or two old and let someone else take the big depreciation hit on the first few months.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

85 monte carlo
find a solid 305, pop it in there.
two straight pipes and a pair of cherry bombs.
you can repair those rocker panels by cutting them off and substituting a tar covered 2x4 and a couple big lag bolts.
change oil every 3 months.
drove one of these for 8 years- total cost excluding fuel under $800- and thats with a motor swap after 4 years.
i realize im not helping.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2010)

Monte's are two-door. Tough to slide the kids with their 
cars seats into the back. I've been driving my '84 caprice
for 2 years now with no problems. Before that, an '85
caprice for 11 yrs. I'll be buying a mint condition '87 later 
this spring and using the '84 as a winter beater. If you're 
light on the gas..these tanks will take you a long way. 
Plus a trunk that'll hold a 412 cab or 3 adult bodies.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

So, how does it work when you buy a new car from the US. Obviously there is shipping involved, but what about duty, taxes and customs . DO you pay the US taxes and the Canadian taxes at the border? I know from buying gear from the US that the sticker price savings often disappear by the time duty, taxes and customs are paid.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Chrysler has an unbelievable deal on caravans right now. 7500 dollars cash back - the model I tried yesterday has a base price of 27845 (A Grand Caravan SE FWD with the usual appointments) has an after taxes/shipping price of 25313, which works out to 208.94 bi-weekly for 60 months with bank rate financing. That's better than most mid-size wagons!


Don't do it man! I HATE my cramavan! I know lots of people love em, but they're not great on gas and the one I have requires me to spend 2-300 a month lately on repairs, it's 3 years old with 100K on it! I really don't drive fast nor do I beat the crap out of it. We've replace all tires, tie rods, oxygen sensor. you name it, once it turn over 80,000 it's been nothing but problems.


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## mario (Feb 18, 2006)

I know Toyota is getting a lot of bad press lately but my wife had a 1997 RAV4 that we bought new back then. It was a very reliable vehicle with pretty low mantience costs. We traded it in for a new Honda Fit last fall. Cool little car with fantastic fuel economy. I do not drive it much but I am impressed with it's handling and it is pretty roomy for a compact vehicle.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I love my HHR and it will do everything you want...good fuel mileage too


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

mrmatt1972 said:


> So, how does it work when you buy a new car from the US. Obviously there is shipping involved, but what about duty, taxes and customs . DO you pay the US taxes and the Canadian taxes at the border? I know from buying gear from the US that the sticker price savings often disappear by the time duty, taxes and customs are paid.


I haven't done it, but I know a few people who have and they saved a significant amount even after paying taxes and duties. You pay Canadian taxes only, duty as well and shipping is $1000 +. some people like to drive them back themselves of course. You have to shop around I am sure and the the dollar needs to be around par for you do get any real savings of course.


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## faracaster (Mar 9, 2006)

Hey Ian....... I know I might get flamed here but........Out of all the cars I've had.......many BMWs, VWs, Hondas (don't do it), and one Ford.......my 2007 toyota Prius is the king. I've had it 3.5 years now and over 137,000 kms.....not one issue.... or.....payment at service time. They have an UNBELIEVABLE warranty. That goes on for some aspects of the car for SEVEN YEARS !!!! 
It has a big interior (four big adults or two and two car seats with room to spare), a very substanial trunk area (I get all my gear in there) has the best stereo I've ever had in a car. My son calls it a spaceship. It's VERY cool. and you can monitor just about every little thing that goes on in the car with the onboard computer and screen. Add to that......over my last car ..... a 525 BMW......I save over $4500 a year in gas. The Prius has a 35 liter tank in the summer I get between 1000-1200 kms per tank. Now it does not handle like a BMW, but, with the family in there, who cares, why would you drive to experience handling? 
Look for used 2007-2008 (if you can find one). Or I bet they are offering some fantastic deals on a new one right now because of the B.S. that is happening.
Just my 2 cents......'cause you asked.
Cheers
Pete


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2010)

Pete: gotta say I'm a little iffy on Toyota right now. But I put a Toyota dealer on my list to visit tomorrow. I couldn't find any used Prius (Prii?) for sale in Ottawa via the dealers and I'm not about to buy a car that complicated on private sale. But I'll look at it. I think it's about $8k too expensive, but lets see what the dealer says tomorrow.

So the exhaust pipe on my Pathfinder let to this morning. Clean shear up under the front passenger seat. Damn thing is falling apart around me. Do I put $2k into it, bringing me up to about $8k spent in the past 12 months, or do I cut it loose? Tomorrow will tell. Got the SiL babysitting all day. I'm going to take the Pathfinder to a series of dealerships. If they meet or exceed the number I have in my head for trade-in value on the Pathfinder I'll talk to them. Otherwise, I'll readjust my strategy accordingly.

Thanks for the recommendations everyone. My shortlist so far is:

VW Golf Wagon (but god do I ever want a GTi)
Mazda3
Nissan Altima
Subaru Outback


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

Have you seen the Infiniti FX-35? They are starting to show up in the off lease market now.


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## Guest (Mar 21, 2010)

Hamm Guitars said:


> Have you seen the Infiniti FX-35? They are starting to show up in the off lease market now.


Yes. Servicing Infiniti stuff tends to be too expensive. Old man had a G35 and service cost was as bad as BMW.

Going to check out a Ford Fusion too.


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## faracaster (Mar 9, 2006)

iaresee said:


> Pete: gotta say I'm a little iffy on Toyota right now. But I put a Toyota dealer on my list to visit tomorrow. I couldn't find any used Prius (Prii?) for sale in Ottawa via the dealers and I'm not about to buy a car that complicated on private sale. But I'll look at it. I think it's about $8k too expensive, but lets see what the dealer says tomorrow.


Yes I'm sure every one is quite leery of Toyota right now. And I would only buy the Prius from a dealer (so you can get their warranty). It does not surprise me that there are none for sale right now. I've heard from my dealer (Scarborough toyota) that they have a waiting list for used ones and as they come in...they never make it to the used lot. One thing you can be sure of with all the crap that has been happening, is that you won't get a more fine toothed, gone through car than a used Toyota from dealer right now. 

Good luck there Ian....At least you will have made an educated decision with all the research you are doing.
Pete


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Check to see if anyone has a retire your ride program, Ford did and was giving some decent cash back.

Also take a look at a car off your radar, the Hyundai Elantra Touring, great car great price with great reviews. Hyundai Elantra Touring 2010 - G, GL, GLS, Sports - 5 doors Compact Cars


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## Guest (Mar 22, 2010)

Bevo said:


> Check to see if anyone has a retire your ride program, Ford did and was giving some decent cash back.
> 
> Also take a look at a car off your radar, the Hyundai Elantra Touring, great car great price with great reviews. Hyundai Elantra Touring 2010 - G, GL, GLS, Sports - 5 doors Compact Cars


Actually that's not off my radar! I wish there was a little more long term info on it though. Hyundais kind of go one of two extremes in my exprience: they're awesome for a long time, or they die quick. I do like the Mitsubishi motor they used in it.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...my girlfriend and i won't buy anything BUT toyota, despite the current troubles. 

nothing "boring" about reliability.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

I need that thanks button for the retire your ride thing. I'm trying out a Mazda 5 (another minivan, sorry) on Wednesday. They seem to have pretty great financing offers right now.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Bevo said:


> Check to see if anyone has a retire your ride program, Ford did and was giving some decent cash back.
> 
> Also take a look at a car off your radar, the Hyundai Elantra Touring, great car great price with great reviews. Hyundai Elantra Touring 2010 - G, GL, GLS, Sports - 5 doors Compact Cars


I didn't want to bring up Hyundai because it tends to start a war because people don't like that they don't do any manufacturing in Canada. But I love my current Hyundai Accent, and I loved my last Hyundai which was an Elantra. They come packed with features and a great warranty. Their entry to mid level models come with more features than the highest end models of some other similar brands. I bought the Accent to save on gas and stuff and love it for what it is. But the Elantra was a fantastic car. I really nice size, and a treat to drive. It seemed to fall somewhere between a sedan, and compact, and a sports car. You wouldn't have guessed looking at it, but it had some 'balls'.

2 family members, a neighbour, and my girlfriend have all bought Hyundai's after checking out and driving mine. They are all as happy as I have been.


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## james on bass (Feb 4, 2006)

I bought a used Ford Freestyle last summer. Excellent car. Loaded to the hilt. 3 rows of seating. Holds as much as a mini-van while looking and driving like a car. Fits my bass rig, basses, as well as my drummer and his full kit and accessories with room for a roadie. 










My wife drives a Ford Focus wagon, which, with scientific packing, got my drummer and I to a number of gigs.


Disclaimer - I am in no way affiliated with the Ford motor company, nor are any members of my family.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Yes, Hyundai have come a long way since they started out.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Seen an ad for the Elantra touring and you can get it loaded for well under $20,000 out the door. I even think they come well equiped at $13..
We sat in one last week at the dealer and it is a very big car, not like the accent or standard Elantra.

I had two Accents and would by another, that was why we were there actualy.


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## Xanadu (Feb 3, 2006)

james on bass said:


> I bought a used Ford Freestyle last summer. Excellent car. Loaded to the hilt. 3 rows of seating. Holds as much as a mini-van while looking and driving like a car. Fits my bass rig, basses, as well as my drummer and his full kit and accessories with room for a roadie.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah the freestyle is a good alternative to the minivan.
It's called a Taurus X now. You don't see an awful lot of them though


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

My friend's parents got a taurus X a few months ago - I should ask him to ask his dad what he thinks of it.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2010)

I'm done.

Today was HELL.

First: I suck balls at negotiating. I'm too honest. To straight. I'll lay my cards out, you lay your cards, we'll make the best mutual deal and everyone will be happy. Car salesmen clearly don't understand how to operate like gentlemen.

I got the range of excuses on my trade in (01 Pathfinder LE, 4x4, new tires, new suspension, new brakes, 136k kms). From "it's too old and unsafe" to "we just don't see a market for 4x4 in Ottawa". So offers from $500 to $3000 (and that top offer was conditional on my buying some weirdly configured Mazda6 2009 they still had on the lot).

The worst was Ford. Which is too bad because I really like the Fusion.

Went and drove it and it held up to my expectations. I was looking at the SEL V6 with some specific options and they had that specific car on the lot. Exact match. Last night the Ford.ca site gave me an MSRP on that car, with those options, of $31,104. I figured that was the high water mark. From there it would get cheaper. And sure enough that was the number on the window of the car: the sticker, freaking, price.

The salesmen seriously tried to sell me that car for more than that. He went through big hoops, slicing things up and "breaking things down" and in the end said: $596 for 48 months at 6.99% if I gave $6000 down and they'd give me $1500 more for the Pathfinder. Add that up gang. He wanted $7500 + $24,900 (the amount they wanted me to finance) for the car. That's $32,400 -- MORE THAN THE STICKER PRICE ON THE CAR!!!!

I got up to walk he he started to say that he really shouldn't let me drive my Pathfinder off the lot. That it was unsafe and I was risking my life in it (seriously, because of a little rattling heat shield...).

Anyhow, I'm done. I'm keeping the Pathfinder. My conviction to drive it straight to its death has been renewed. Next time I shop for a car I do it over email, get quotes and just buy the one that's the cheapest. I'll also self-finance.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Buying a car, whether it is used or new, at a car lot has to be one of the most frustrating and deflating experiences known to man. The only piece of advise I can give you is to never trade in a car at a delearship. First off, they dont want it and if they do take it in they will pay you far less than you can get selling it privately. The only exception to that rule is if there is some kind of huge deal going on like the cash for clunkers thing, which happens very rarely and I dont see it happening again for a long time. But selling it privately is not a big hassle. Just look around at all the used car books and internet sites, get the going rate on your vehicle and list it at that price. At least you wont get hosed on it. 

If you get the safety done thats great or sell it as is. Good luck on the new car thing, I know it is a terrible ordeal. One I never look forward to. I was lucky for a stretch of 12 years where I was driving company cars and never had to deal with it. I got lucky on the truck I bought too, got a pretty good deal on it but had to search half Ontario to find it.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2010)

At this point I'm really loving my Pathfinder again. Although I will definitely sell it privately if I decide to try this fiasco again.

Some of the cars I had picked out (the Mazda3 for example) were disappointingly small inside. I ended up looking at a Mazda6 because there's no way 2 kids + double stroller + all the stuff the wife "needs" have to survive 10 feet from the house were going into that car.

And after that Ford experience I trust no one selling cars. No one.

No, better to get it right again and keep it going for a little while longer. I may also look into a broker next time to haggle for me. At least now I know I'd drive a Fusion SEL V6 or a Mazda6 I4-GT and be happy. So that makes it easier.

Ugh.

I need a beer.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

one thing you might consider is joining a credit union. the one i belong to is awesome for financing autos, and they also have access to some pretty sweet used stuff about every 4 months. i have bought all 3 motorcycles this way. i deal with the sales guy until i get the price i think is fair, then i ask him to write me a deal i can take to my bank. i come back the next day with a check, and ride off the lot on my new bike.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

iaresee said:


> At this point I'm really loving my Pathfinder again. Although I will definitely sell it privately if I decide to try this fiasco again.
> 
> Some of the cars I had picked out (the Mazda3 for example) were disappointingly small inside. I ended up looking at a Mazda6 because there's no way 2 kids + double stroller + all the stuff the wife "needs" have to survive 10 feet from the house were going into that car.
> 
> ...


I am not going to say all Hyundai dealerships are fantastic, but I have dealt with 3 of them and it's been a pleasure each time. The buying experience and the service after sale are key reasons I bought another Hyundai.

One of the reasons I ended up at Hyundai originally was because of the treatment I got at the Ford and GM dealerships when I was younger. Obviously they haven't changed their ways much. I haven't dealth with any of that crap at either of the 3 Hyundai dealerships I have dealt with. 

Another interesting thing is when I tried to trade in my Honda back when I bought my first Hyundai, the Honda dealership tried to take me to the cleaners on the trade. That was on a car I bought brand new from them! They offered me a ridiculous price. Hyundai gave me more than fair value on the trade. Close to what I would have got with a private sale in fact. Instead of trying to force a sale on me, they EARNED a sale.

You should at least go in and take a look. They are worth checking out.


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## Xanadu (Feb 3, 2006)

torndownunit said:


> Another interesting thing is when I tried to trade in my Honda back when I bought my first Hyundai, the Honda dealership tried to take me to the cleaners on the trade. That was on a car I bought brand new from them! They offered me a ridiculous price. Hyundai gave me more than fair value on the trade. Close to what I would have got with a private sale in fact. Instead of trying to force a sale on me, they EARNED a sale.


Sorry to burst your bubble, but both of those dealers would have sent your trade-in to the same auction. If Hyundai gave you close to retail on it, they buried the loss in the new car cost.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Xanadu said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble, but both of those dealers would have sent your trade-in to the same auction. If Hyundai gave you close to retail on it, they buried the loss in the new car cost.


Uh, you do not know what I paid new for my car, and you seem to be assuming I am stupid when it comes to buying cars or something. Since you don't know anything about the deal, it would be fair of you not to make assumptions like that since they come across as a little insulting. Not only have I bought a few new cars, I took someone with me how knows a ton about the dealership industry the last 2 times I bought cars. The deal I got was very good, and the trade value I got was very good. If I sent you an invoice for my deal, you could see their was nothing hidden or shady. If I gave you details on what Honda was offering, you would agree their offer was ridiculous. Hyundai wanted to sell me a car... Honda didn't.

Honda simply did not want my business because I was looking to buy new-used at the time (something a couple of years old). As soon as they heard that, they did everything they could to get me out the door. The price they offered me on trade was not 'a little low' it was thousands of $'s lower than even the median price for that car at the time. The fact is they only wanted to sell me a new car, and wanted nothing to do with me unless I was buying new. Again, I am not grouping all Honda dealerships together just like I wouldn't say all Hyundai dealers are great. But that is what I experienced at the Honda dealership up here. 

The way Honda treated me is the same way I have always been treated at Ford and GM dealerships. It's what drive me into looking at Honda's in the first place. When their service went downhill, I looked elsewhere again. I was actually treated like a human being at the Volkswagen, Hyundai, and Toyota dealerships. Honda could have kept someone who was a loyal customer at the time, but they didn't give a crap.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...car salesfolk are a particularly nasty breed. when i went to purchase my first car, i visited a honda dealer in richmond hill. the sales person was a very beautiful and very pregnant black woman. we were doing fine, but i wanted to leave, so that i could shop around, and give further thought to the deal that was being offered. however, she asked me to wait, whereupon several of her male superiors came to talk to me, trying to convince me that i had to make a deal there and then. finally, a tall, handsome and immaculately dressed senior executive came over, sat atop the desk at which i was waiting, leaned down and intimated that the reason that i wasn't ready to buy might have something to do with the fact that my salesperson was black, and female, and pregnant.
from there i ventured onto the lot at downtown honda. by now, i had in mind what i wanted, and how much i wanted to pay. they couldn't meet my terms, so i thanked the sales guy and left before he had a chance to protest. the next morning he calls me at work. i took the call in the accounting office. he asked me if i had found a car. in order to get him off my back, i told him i had taken over the lease on my friend's volvo, which was only half true - my friend had offered, i had declined. then he informed me that, just that morning, honda had announced a huge deal on the car i wanted, a deal that was almost exactly what i wanted, and what i wanted to pay. i didn't know what to say, so he thanked me for my time and hung up. the girls in the accounting department were giggling and said, "you've just been snowed!" so, i went back to my office (okay, cubicle..) and called the guy back to tell him my friend had let me out of the volvo deal and that i was on my way down to see him. cue the sound of a truck backing up...beep! beep! beep! beep! he even told me that honda head office had misled him.
i called the honda head office to report the scam, for whatever that might have been worth.



iaresee said:


> I'm done.
> 
> Today was HELL.
> 
> ...


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...wow! looks like torndownunit had similarly bad experiences like mine at honda.

i ended up buying a honda for my first car, anyway, from a salesguy who turned out to be a former montrealer. he gave me a great deal. i found honda service to be a bit of a scam, but the car was indestructible.

my next car was a hyundai. again, a great deal for the money. but, the service was also underhanded, and the car really fell apart after 200k.

i visited saturn, as well. couldn't afford the deal they offered, but really appreciated the straightforward, no-pressure sales technique of the young salesguy in levis.

my girlfriend's last car was a mazda. after about 150k, it was really falling apart, and all the hub caps had fallen off (evidently that happens a lot with mazda's - take a look around you next time you're out driving).

last week she bought a brand new yaris - looks like a great car!


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...wow! looks like torndownunit had similarly bad experiences like mine at honda.
> 
> i ended up buying a honda for my first car, anyway, from a salesguy who turned out to be a former montrealer. he gave me a great deal. i found honda service to be a bit of a scam, but the car was indestructible.
> 
> ...


Ya in my case I haven't had any bad luck with Hyundai yet though. No issues with service in any regard yet whether it's the people in the dealership or the service department. Another huge factor is the Hyundai's have improved design wise by leaps and bounds over the last few years. So I haven't had any issues with the cars.

The bottom line for me is there are too many comparible/competitive options available out there now to be treated like crap by a dealer though. I am not going to be mistreated or ripped off just because of brand loyalty.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

sorry you had a frustrating experience Ian. Dealers sure do piss off, and rip off, alot of people with their tactics it seems. 

I go into dealerships with a plan, I know exactly what I want and what I am willing to pay and as soon as I get any crap I either walk or ask to talk to a senior manager. Integrity and fairness in interactions are not part of the game most of the time like you say, so I am ruthless with them from the start, including hanging up on them when they phone me with follow up crap. I have always got good deals at dealerships. 

I don't think you can get as much as you can get with a trade in as you can selling yourself though, with rare exception perhaps. I prefer to sell privately and then make my best deal for what I want. 

good luck.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2010)

Unfortunately I didn't know what I wanted. Hence the searching yesterday. Although now I do know exactly what kind of Fusion I'd buy. The manager called me this morning and I laid out my experience. I think he was suitably embarrassed. He asked for a second chance and I said bring me a number, but at this point I'm just going to keep the Pathfinder going.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

iaresee said:


> At this point I'm really loving my Pathfinder again. Although I will definitely sell it privately if I decide to try this fiasco again.
> 
> Some of the cars I had picked out (the Mazda3 for example) were disappointingly small inside. I ended up looking at a Mazda6 because there's no way 2 kids + double stroller + all the stuff the wife "needs" have to survive 10 feet from the house were going into that car.
> 
> ...


Hey you know Ian, I think we've all been there. My husband too would never ever trade in and he is a stubbord kind of man. When I replaced my 2000 civic (in 06) with all the original parts, he put it on the front lawn and in the autotrader and waitid till someone came along and gave us exactly what we were asking, took a couple of months, but it worked out. BTW, 6.99% fianacing sounds terrible! You'd think dealerships would give some better deal already! Good luck!


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Starbuck said:


> Hey you know Ian, I think we've all been there. My husband too would never ever trade in and he is a stubbord kind of man. When I replaced my 2000 civic (in 06) with all the original parts, he put it on the front lawn and in the autotrader and waitid till someone came along and gave us exactly what we were asking, took a couple of months, but it worked out. BTW, 6.99% fianacing sounds terrible! You'd think dealerships would give some better deal already! Good luck!


Wow I missed the 6.99%. It's crazy that that's the best they are offering. I got my car less than a year ago, and it's 2%. If I had shortened the term, it would have been 0%.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2010)

Starbuck said:


> Hey you know Ian, I think we've all been there. My husband too would never ever trade in and he is a stubbord kind of man. When I replaced my 2000 civic (in 06) with all the original parts, he put it on the front lawn and in the autotrader and waitid till someone came along and gave us exactly what we were asking, took a couple of months, but it worked out. BTW, 6.99% fianacing sounds terrible! You'd think dealerships would give some better deal already! Good luck!


The sales manager from Ford called this morning and was shocked I wasn't interested any more. I laid it all out for him. I can't believe that thought that was a deal. Anything more than the interest rate on my line of credit is silly to consider.

But yea: little disappointed I don't get a new toy to drive, but my bottom line is better keeping the paid for vehicle. I think.

Did I mention my Father in Law helped me fix the pipe and cat converter cover last night? $10 in pipe clamps. Sweet.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2010)

torndownunit said:


> Wow I missed the 6.99%. It's crazy that that's the best they are offering. I got my car less than a year ago, and it's 2%. If I had shortened the term, it would have been 0%.


I would have gone as high as two, every other place was offering 0%. Ford was off their nut.


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## Brennan (Apr 9, 2008)

First rule of buying a new car: *Never* discuss financing until the details of the purchase are finalized. Make sure you have a solid price for the car with the options you want *in writing* before ever looking at a monthly cost or financing rate. The very first thing any car salesman will try to do is sell you on a monthly cost that *looks* like you're saving money, when in fact you're spending more. This works for them more often than not, so make sure you ask for the real numbers and don't let up.

Other things to note: 

Always be ready to walk away, and never sign anything on your first visit. No one is going to offer you a deal today that you can't get tomorrow.


Dealerships very rarely deal in used vehicles anymore, 90% of the used cars they take in go immidiately to auction, so don't expect a decent trade in value. If you're not willing to take 50-75% market value on your trade in, you're probably going to have to sell it privately (you also want to take into consideration the tax savings from trading in your vehicle over selling it privately when making your decision, not to mention your time and effort).


Research the cars you want to see ahead of time; there are plenty of sites available online which list invoice prices of any new cars currently on the market. Negotiations are always much easier when you know their bottom line.


Get every offer in writing, and use that offer in your negotiations with other dealers.


Don't be afraid to visit multiple dealers to look at the same car, and let them know if another has given you a better deal. You should have no problem getting them to undercut their competition.


If you're looking to save money, look for last year's models (or even the year before). There's still tons of them brand new sitting on lots or in warehouses at huge discounts. If you don't see any on the lot, ask them to check their national inventory. It's costing them money at this point, and they'll practically give them away.


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## james on bass (Feb 4, 2006)

Xanadu said:


> Yeah the freestyle is a good alternative to the minivan.
> It's called a Taurus X now. You don't see an awful lot of them though


They only made the Taurus X for 2 years (the Freestyle for 3). Replaced by the Ford Flex, which I wish I could afford.


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## james on bass (Feb 4, 2006)

torndownunit said:


> Uh, you do not know what I paid new for my car, and you seem to be assuming I am stupid when it comes to buying cars or something. Since you don't know anything about the deal, it would be fair of you not to make assumptions like that since they come across as a little insulting. Not only have I bought a few new cars, I took someone with me how knows a ton about the dealership industry the last 2 times I bought cars. The deal I got was very good, and the trade value I got was very good. If I sent you an invoice for my deal, you could see their was nothing hidden or shady. If I gave you details on what Honda was offering, you would agree their offer was ridiculous. Hyundai wanted to sell me a car... Honda didn't.
> 
> Honda simply did not want my business because I was looking to buy new-used at the time (something a couple of years old). As soon as they heard that, they did everything they could to get me out the door. The price they offered me on trade was not 'a little low' it was thousands of $'s lower than even the median price for that car at the time. The fact is they only wanted to sell me a new car, and wanted nothing to do with me unless I was buying new. Again, I am not grouping all Honda dealerships together just like I wouldn't say all Hyundai dealers are great. But that is what I experienced at the Honda dealership up here.
> 
> The way Honda treated me is the same way I have always been treated at Ford and GM dealerships. It's what drive me into looking at Honda's in the first place. When their service went downhill, I looked elsewhere again. I was actually treated like a human being at the Volkswagen, Hyundai, and Toyota dealerships. Honda could have kept someone who was a loyal customer at the time, but they didn't give a crap.



I don't know that he was really trying to insult you. It's true. If your car is worth say $5,000 black book, no dealer is going to give you more than that give or take a few hundred. Doesn't matter if it's a Honda, Chrysler, or the used lot down the street. A car in "X" condition is worth "Y" $, period. If they offer you $6,000, that just means they had another $1,000 they could have taken off the new car. True, a shady dealer could offer you $3,000 for a car he knows is worth $5,000 that he can sell for $7,000 hoping to find that you are a sucker. 
I sold cars for about 6 months a number of years ago before the dishonesty I saw finally turned my stomach and I walked out. Now, with the internet, it's pretty easy to get a fair deal. I now deal with a Ford dealership owned by a family I know, but even then, I shop around and do my homework. I also take good care of my cars and drive them into the ground (or until someone runs a light and drives it into the ground for me). My last car, I was hoping to get $100 trade-in value for it - I got $150.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

james on bass said:


> I don't know that he was really trying to insult you. It's true. If your car is worth say $5,000 black book, no dealer is going to give you more than that give or take a few hundred. Doesn't matter if it's a Honda, Chrysler, or the used lot down the street. A car in "X" condition is worth "Y" $, period. If they offer you $6,000, that just means they had another $1,000 they could have taken off the new car. True, a shady dealer could offer you $3,000 for a car he knows is worth $5,000 that he can sell for $7,000 hoping to find that you are a sucker.
> I sold cars for about 6 months a number of years ago before the dishonesty I saw finally turned my stomach and I walked out. Now, with the internet, it's pretty easy to get a fair deal. I now deal with a Ford dealership owned by a family I know, but even then, I shop around and do my homework. I also take good care of my cars and drive them into the ground (or until someone runs a light and drives it into the ground for me). My last car, I was hoping to get $100 trade-in value for it - I got $150.


I realize what a trade-in is and what the dealer is trying to achieve. I know trade-in value does not equal private sale value. Again, the post clearly states the Honda dealership weren't even in the ballpark of what the normal trade in value would be. What the Hyundai dealership offered was fair trade-in value, plus a little more to try to get the sale. Honda was offering thousands of $'s below TRADE-IN value, not the value of private sale. And that was on a car I bought new from that dealership, and had serviced there the entire time I owned it. Other dealerships offered me $2000 more on trade, not just Hyundai. Hyundai was just who I ended up going with because again, they were great to deal with and offered what I wanted for a price I wanted.

Again it was bad service from a bad dealership. I am not grouping all Honda dealers together.


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## Xanadu (Feb 3, 2006)

james on bass said:


> They only made the Taurus X for 2 years (the Freestyle for 3). Replaced by the Ford Flex, which I wish I could afford.


Once you get past the fridge look, they're really nice vehicles.


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## Stratocaster (Feb 2, 2006)

fraser said:


> 85 monte carlo
> find a solid 305, pop it in there.
> two straight pipes and a pair of cherry bombs.
> you can repair those rocker panels by cutting them off and substituting a tar covered 2x4 and a couple big lag bolts.
> ...


Lol monte with a 305? I don't think chevy's ever made a weaker small block v8. Fuel Injection i'm guessing since they never matched TPI with that year old Monte Carlo...

the 305 is terrible on gas, and puts out a whopping 160 HP...Is that really worth it if you're getting a muscle car? 
OP, if you're getting a chevy v8 car, get atleast a 350 (5.7L). This has been my car for a long time now, 86 firebird 










chevy 350 5.7L, th700r4 tranny
tuned port injection 
355 headers, edelbrock
flowmaster exhaust system
sitting on hoosier street race radials

i've eaten many of montes/mustangs/japanese cars from stop lights
yes I realize I'm not helping either , especially since I don't drive cars with less than 8 cylinders


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

the front springs on that firebird look a little high. are those camaro wheels? i had an 87 with the 305 and tpi, cat back, chip, worked tranny. it wasn't that slow. i beat my buddy's 390 pick up, it had headers, a cam and an edlebrock intake. shame you can't see the faint gold metalflake. it was a nice lookin car


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2010)

Solid family cars guys. 

Did I mention I'm keeping the truck? Just going to wait on it. Maybe next year we'll become a two car family. We'll see.

I did pass the enviro test. Only took $10 in pipe clamps to close up the exhaust and keep the heat shield on the cat from rattling.


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## Stratocaster (Feb 2, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> the front springs on that firebird look a little high. are those camaro wheels? i had an 87 with the 305 and tpi, cat back, chip, worked tranny. it wasn't that slow. i beat my buddy's 390 pick up, it had headers, a cam and an edlebrock intake. shame you can't see the faint gold metalflake. it was a nice lookin car


Haha yeah, they are a little high. One day I went over a typical Toronto street pothole at a high speed, and bottomed out my left spring at the front. Took it into the shop, and they didn't have the specific firebird springs, and would have needed to order them. Instead the guy had some aftermarket springs for some other car which fit no problem, but now the front sits about an inch and a half higher. Yeah 87 z28 wheels 

Nice GTA though, what happened to it?




iaresee said:


> Solid family cars guys.
> 
> Did I mention I'm keeping the truck? Just going to wait on it. Maybe next year we'll become a two car family. We'll see.
> 
> I did pass the enviro test. Only took $10 in pipe clamps to close up the exhaust and keep the heat shield on the cat from rattling.


Good to hear man, around here we can just find some shady shop, pay the guy $100 and pass the e-test no problem


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i sold it before i came to canada. i was already leaving a motorcycle and some other stuff behind, and could only drive one car to get me here. i did give the guy who bought it a sweet deal though, because he seemed so excited, and it really wasn't a matter of $$ for me at the time. i sold it for $1000


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

US pro car sales folks just love mooks like you, who think they know how to stickhandle us. You read the Edmonston book on how to buy cars. We make the most money off lot lawyers like you.

CT.



Brennan said:


> First rule of buying a new car: *Never* discuss financing until the details of the purchase are finalized. Make sure you have a solid price for the car with the options you want *in writing* before ever looking at a monthly cost or financing rate. The very first thing any car salesman will try to do is sell you on a monthly cost that *looks* like you're saving money, when in fact you're spending more. This works for them more often than not, so make sure you ask for the real numbers and don't let up.
> 
> Other things to note:
> 
> ...


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2010)

CocoTone said:


> US pro car sales folks just love mooks like you, who think they know how to stickhandle us. You read the Edmonston book on how to buy cars. We make the most money off lot lawyers like you.
> 
> CT.


 You sell cars? Cool. Can I buy one from you? Are you in Eastern ON?


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Funny, I just went from an 01 Durango (suv like yours), to a new Audi A5 S-line.
Not b/c of repair bills on the Dodge (its was actually incredibly reliable even with 250k kms on it), but I just didnt feel like being in a big bouncy 7 seater truck anymore that usually only has me in it.
The A5 has taken 10 yrs off my life, it is such a blast to drive. But of course, not nearly as versatile as an SUV.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Check Consumer Reports and JD Power for reviews.
Hyundai Sonata sounds like your ticket.


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## Brennan (Apr 9, 2008)

CocoTone said:


> US pro car sales folks just love mooks like you, who think they know how to stickhandle us. You read the Edmonston book on how to buy cars. We make the most money off lot lawyers like you.
> 
> CT.


Looks like I hit a nerve. 

It has nothing to do with "stick handling" sales people, and everything to do with being informed and prepared ahead of time so you don't get raked over the coals (which many, but not all, car sales people are inclined to do). I can't tell you how many people I've seen get conned or preasured into paying well above sticker, all the while thinking they were getting a great deal ... only to find out how much money they really lost after it was too late to do anything about it. A little preparation and information can save someone thousands of dollars. As far as making money off of "mooks" like me, my business goes to the dealerships who are up front and honest with me from the start (which seems pretty rare, at least around here). I don't pinch pennies and I have no trouble meeting a dealer half way. I go in knowing the value of the car, and we work out a deal that benefits both parties.


Diablo, great choice with the A5 ... it's one of the sexiest cars on the road today imho. If they move the cabrio to a hard top, it'll likely be my next car.


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## Peter (Mar 25, 2008)

Hey Ian, read most of the thread. I noticed you didn't mind the Mazda 3 earlier - I've got one now and it's fantastic, but trust me you do NOT want to try to haul everything you posted in the OP around in a 3, even a wagon. They're smaller than you think.

Have you checked out the 6 wagon? It's pretty sweet!










But if places are offering you only $1500 for your Pathy I think your on the right track to drive that [email protected]#$er straight into the ground!


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

It is illegal to sell a car above MSRP. I sell Hondas, because it is a very good product, with an outstanding reputation for reliabily, quality, value, and a very high fun-to-drive ratio, and I pride myself in making sure my customers get the right deal, and go away happy. M personal CSI rating is 100%. I am in Ontario, just east of Oshawa, if your interested , pm me.

CT.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Diablo said:


> Funny, I just went from an 01 Durango (suv like yours), to a new Audi A5 S-line.
> Not b/c of repair bills on the Dodge (its was actually incredibly reliable even with 250k kms on it), but I just didnt feel like being in a big bouncy 7 seater truck anymore that usually only has me in it.
> The A5 has taken 10 yrs off my life, it is such a blast to drive. But of course, not nearly as versatile as an SUV.


I'm with Brennan, the Audi 5 looks great. I have an Audi Allroad now and I love the way they drive. I am looking at another Audi or something comparable for my next vehicle. 

Hey CT, I am curious about the new Accord Crosstour, we have an 06 Accord and it is a great car. I like the idea of 4wd, though I am used to AWD, which I love - what is the main difference?


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

Quite a bit more car than your '06. It has the same Reasltime 4WD that comes on the CRV, but the only engine choice is the big 3.5 V6. Very nice car to drive. Comes with all the amenities that are standard on the EXL trim level of the regular Accord. 

CT.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

CocoTone, I hope you'll still be at your Honda dealership in a few years when I can get my next car  (our family is on Honda #3 and Accord #2, I like to think it's doing well)


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

I just got home in my new Dodge Journey. I love it. It's big enough for a family vehicle, yet small enough to be a good commuter. Lots of great features (I feel a little like captain Kirk talking to my car) and very comfortable. I doubt I'll get 3007000 km out of it like I did my Caravan, but I'm sure I'll get farther than the warranty numbers.

It's my first new car ever!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

mrmatt1972 said:


> I just got home in my new Dodge Journey. I love it. It's big enough for a family vehicle, yet small enough to be a good commuter. Lots of great features (I feel a little like captain Kirk talking to my car) and very comfortable. I doubt I'll get 3007000 km out of it like I did my Caravan, but I'm sure I'll get farther than the warranty numbers.
> 
> It's my first new car ever!


congrats 

...but..

THERE IS SNOW IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH! :/


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Budda said:


> congrats
> 
> ...but..
> 
> THERE IS SNOW IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH! :/


Yeah, it snowed a couple days last week. Life in Northern Ontario is like that. It was a very warm spring though, so it was a bit of a shock when it came. Believe it or not, I've seen snow in mid May.


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

2009 Dodge Journey - Consumer Guide Automotive


hmmm....!


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## Xanadu (Feb 3, 2006)

CocoTone said:


> 2009 Dodge Journey - Consumer Guide Automotive
> 
> 
> hmmm....!


The CVP and SE Plus are definately lacking compared to the SXT. For the price though they're a fantastic vehicle.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Never judge a car from reviews. They dont know what you look for in a car, and assume that what they need is what you need................


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Nice ride!

Do yourself a favour and read all the warrenty requirements, may have a loophole that your not aware of.
Most manufacturers will accept oil changes from a certified company but not at inspection times. If you miss those dates your warrenty may be void.

Trust me, getting the front end of my Civic alinged at 35,000K was really stupid but was part of the inspection. They strongly suggested I do it, VERY strongly.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Bevo said:


> Nice ride!
> 
> Do yourself a favour and read all the warrenty requirements, may have a loophole that your not aware of.
> Most manufacturers will accept oil changes from a certified company but not at inspection times. If you miss those dates your warrenty may be void.
> ...


Thanks, and thanks for the tip. I needed some light reading tonight anyway. 

Mine is the SE plus with a couple extra packages that really make a nice vehicle (I'm calling it a van, but it's a "crossover") into a very nice one. And, as mentioned, there's nothing in the price range (base MSRP 19500) , at least tht I saw, that even comes close in terms of storage capacity, ride and comfort.


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## grumpyoldman (Jan 31, 2010)

I realize I am a bit late to join the fray, but....

Even though there seems to be a bit of reluctance to consider the "mini-van" idea, perhaps you might want to consider looking for another used vehicle...You can't get new ones, but I have had a few GMC vans (either GMC Safari or Chevrolet Astro) that I swear by. I am currently driving my 1995 Safari into the earth - it has 340,000km of hard worked kilometres on it, at least a third of which were travelled hauling the band's equipment trailer (6X10 enclosed, full of PA gear) behind it and up to six of the band members' behinds in it at the same time. Excellent vehicle, as both of my others were as well (well worn out when they left my ownership - 312,000km on one, and 205,000km on the other). 

Should this suggestion end up being entertained, you will be in the same boat as me - trying to find one without high mileage already provided! I stand to be corrected, but I believe the last model year they were available was 2005, so you start out with a vehicle AT LEAST 5 years old....

Our second vehicle is a 2005 Jeep Liberty, by the way - also a great vehicle, but haven't towed with it yet, and tends to have just a tad less storage area than the Safari ;-)

John
thegrumpyoldman


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Chrysler has an unbelievable deal on caravans right now. 7500 dollars cash back - the model I tried yesterday has a base price of 27845 (A Grand Caravan SE FWD with the usual appointments) has an after taxes/shipping price of 25313, which works out to 208.94 bi-weekly for 60 months with bank rate financing. That's better than most mid-size wagons!


Yes, and you can buy a used one with 40,000 clicks for about $10,000.00. I don't think 40,000 KM is worth $15,000.00.


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