# Modes?!



## Mogley (Feb 19, 2012)

I am kind of stumped by the process of modes. To my understanding, a mode basically set an applied outline of which scales and the relationship between intervals and notation of the music. Is there anyone who possibly could fill me in on modes?


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## brent (Feb 18, 2012)

You got it. IMO it never hurts to learn, but pick the modes that apply to your style and go with them. Learning modes that will never be applied in your playing style might be good practice but won't do anything musically for you.


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## Mogley (Feb 19, 2012)

brent said:


> You got it. IMO it never hurts to learn, but pick the modes that apply to your style and go with them. Learning modes that will never be applied in your playing style might be good practice but won't do anything musically for you.


Right on ha, i usually play in very dark playing styles mixed with a bit of blues-like flavor. Besides that i play a lot of Dropped tuned music. I believe that is 
"d'dorian?" or something like that ha, all of most i know is from peer 2 peer discussion so i have a lot to learn yet. 

P.S. could someone possibly refer me to some sort of index of modes they prefer to be easy to work with? or at least list all of the modes. thanks!


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

Here's a recent thread that discussed it: http://www.guitarscanada.com/theory-technique/46562-modes-fill-blanks.html


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## Mogley (Feb 19, 2012)

I like the "I dont particularily lyke modes a lot" acronym. 



> C : ionian (major)
> D : dorian (minor)
> E : phrygian (minor)
> F : lydian (major)
> ...


I do not understand why the minor,major, dominant words were put in the text above^. is this because the root note is major or??
Besides that this all helps a lot... but when you are at entry level on theory, it is hard to read between the lines and make sense of all of these terms im not familiar with.


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## doriangrey (Mar 29, 2011)

Mogley said:


> I like the "I dont particularily lyke modes a lot" acronym.
> 
> I do not understand why the minor,major, dominant words were put in the text above^. is this because the root note is major or??
> Besides that this all helps a lot... but when you are at entry level on theory, it is hard to read between the lines and make sense of all of these terms im not familiar with.


the major, minor, dominant words were put in the text because those are the chords that each particular mode works well over. To gain a really good understanding of modes you need to understand chords as well. The chords in any key would include I (major) ii (minor) iii (minor) IV (major) V (dominant) Vi (minor) and Vii (diminished). So now if you have a I IV V progression that goes G to C to D and resolves back to G (the I major chord) then G Ionian will work well over that. If the progression goes D to C to G and resolves back to D then that is now a V IV I progression resolving back to the V dominant chord in which case D Mixolydian would work well over that. If your just soloing over a chord like B minor 7 then B Aeolian or B Dorian will work nicely. If the Bm chord then changes to a D9 (or dominant V chord) then the Bm is now being treated as a ii chord in that progression and B Dorian would work nice over that. If that's confusing then I would encourage you to learn more about chords and their relationships before you start giving yourself a headache over modes. Most people only use a few modes anyway - like Ionian (major) Aeolian (minor) and maybe some Dorian or Mixolydian here and there...Lydian is nice too...Locrian is used in about .5% of poplar music so I hardly ever hear anyone playing Locrian - that why I like the acronym for modes that goes 'I Don't Play Licks Made Around Locrian'. To learn more about chords click here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTWSfALpmzI 

One of the ways I like to teach modes is by getting people to do pedal point exercises where they play the low open e string as a drone tone and then play the modes over top of the open e string because you will never really understand how the modes differ in sound if you don't play them over a low note or chord.

Here are a couple of lessons that do that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbPIGnqt80&feature=related 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE0qLKHnflo 

Hope this helps...
Cheers,
Ron


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

Yes , technically the different modes are the major scale starting from different notes. So for C Ionian - CDEFGABDorian - DEFGABPhrygian - EFGABCDLydian - FGABCDEMixolydian - GABCDEFAeolian - ABCDEFGLocrian - BCDEFGASame notes, different starting point. So yes by learning these patterns you are learning modal "shapes". But the key differentiator is the starting tone. If it is Dorian the the note that is considered ONE becomes D. Therefore that chord (Dmin) MUST be the central tonality of the song for it to be a Dorian piece. The thing is the more chords you use from the key of C, the more they gravitationally pull it back to CMajor...that's just how notes work. They get grouped together because they pull naturally to a central tone.So you want to set up a D Dorian piece - It's just CMajor BUT from the perspective of D min being your home tone.Also the common misunderstanding among guitar players is that by changing how they finger a scale they can change the songs modality. Not true at all. It only becomes modal when the underlying chords dictate it to be so. You can hammer your brains out on "Phrygian mode" (meaning the finger pattern) all you want... You are only playing C major still.. BUT if the piece is centered around Emin, and your melodies are using notes from the key of C.... THEN it becomes Phrygian.Make sense?


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Jeremy...True.

My pre-guitar music experience was all conservatory piano, home taught theory (Dad was a musician), and choral experience. Transferring that knowledge to the guitar was a matter of mapping notes on fretboard diagrams. I found that mode playing ability was a direct side benefit of having learned every note in every location along the strings plus memorization of fingerings, some of those fingerings courtesy of '70s era Guitar Player Magazine. With the subsequent obvious major scales came the less obvious modes and their "chord scales" (for lack of a better descriptive term). This method worked so well for me that for every guitar student with prior lessons in piano I encourage them to exploit their ability/knowledge in that area by transferring it to guitar. It doesn't surprise me then that they become much better arrangers too.

I believe in scales. "The study of scales will solve a greater number of technical problems in a shorter amount of time than the study of any other technical exercise." according to none other than Andres Segovia. I would qualify that by adding that it includes intervalic ear training. Playing in any mode is aided immensely by the ability to hear and identify intervals.

Peace, Mooh.


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## aftermidnight (Oct 11, 2009)

There are a few different ways to approach modes but the easiest way for me was to think of them in terms of complete songs ....... i.e. what is the vibe/feel of a given song? ........ and what scale(s) do I need to be playing as a soloist?

So, you are at a jam and someone plays ’Scarborough Fair’ (Simon and Garfunkel) as follows ...... 

Em D Em
Are you going to Scarborough Fair
G Em G A Em
Parsley sage rosemary and thyme
G D
Remember me to one who lives there
Em D Em
She once was a true love of mine

As a soloist on guitar, keys, harmonica (or whatever) you need to make some quick decisions.

There is definitely a minor vibe happening ....... but do I play Em scale (which is really G major scale where you lean on the E notes) ....... or do I play E Dorian scale (which is really D major scale and lean on the E notes)?

In this case, primarily due to the choice of chords used by the songwriter, I believe E Dorian scale (or D major but lean on the E notes) is the correct answer.

This guy ....... http://www.torvund.net/guitar/index.php?page=mode&ModeID=2 ....... gives a pretty good explanation and provided the following list of songs with a Dorian vibe going on.

Recordings with Dorian mode

Allman Brothers – Dreams
Allman Brothers – In Memory of Elizabeth Reed
Allman Brothers – Whipping Post
Beatles – Eleanor Rigby
Beatles – Love You Do
Bee Gees – Stayin’ Alive
Jeff Beck - Greensleeves
...... etc.

Check out any of these songs and see if you can figure out which scale to use for soloing. This should give you a good handle on the Dorian mode which along with the Mixolydian moded are probably the most used in popular music today.

Other diatonic modes can then be looked at from the same perspective. 

Here are some examples from the same site for the Mixolydian mode ......

Eric Clapton – Cocaine
Eric Clapton – I Feel Free
Cream – Sunshine of Your Love
Dire Straits – Money for Nothing
..... etc.

(As well, an understanding of the history of modes from their start in Gregorian chants to their use today in fiddle, pop, folk and jazz music might shed some light ..... hope this helps.)


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## aftermidnight (Oct 11, 2009)

To the OP,

I just re-read my last post and took a closer look at the web page that was provided.

If you are indeed just getting your feet wet with modes, the web page explanation of modes is really way more complicated than it needs to be.

It is easy to get overwhelmed by all these strange scales and we don’t want that to happen ...... believe me, I have been there!

The concept of modes is really not complicated ......... modes are fun and a necessary tool for soloing ........ especially when asked to solo in a song where the songwriter has purposely created a modal vibe.

So, (and IMHO) for a first step into the world of modes, the most important thing on the web page provided is probably the list of Dorian pop songs at the bottom.
Try and find a few songs from the list that you like ........ give the songs a close listen ..... find the chords to play along ...... try and get a sense of the Dorian modal vibe that is happening ......... and then pick out the correct Dorian scale to use if you are ever asked to solo.

Once you get your head around Dorian, then use the same approach and maybe move on to Mixolydian, Aeolian, etc.

(In one of your posts you mention ‘drop tuning’. I will assume you are probably referring to drop D here or perhaps double drop D tuning. This tuning sounds cool and different but does not automatically get you into modal playing. You really need to make your drop D tuning work in a modal song, bridge, chorus etc. to correctly capture the ‘modal’ vibe the songwriter has created ..... hope this helps.)


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## Mogley (Feb 19, 2012)

I understand the i ii iii iv v vi vii concept of a chord progression, and that a G C D is a i iv v. and vise versa (D C G = v iv i). But how is it that D mixolydian works well over it?
(i apologize if everyone elses posts feel disreguarded, i have read the whole thread over but what i grasped onto is this concept and i want to clearly understand it first) 
and p.s. is a B9 a B chorded with the 9th interval from B?? also, Bm7 a B minor diminished?


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## Mogley (Feb 19, 2012)

jeremy_green said:


> Yes , technically the different modes are the major scale starting from different notes. So for C Ionian - CDEFGABDorian - DEFGABPhrygian - EFGABCDLydian - FGABCDEMixolydian - GABCDEFAeolian - ABCDEFGLocrian - BCDEFGASame notes, different starting point. So yes by learning these patterns you are learning modal "shapes". But the key differentiator is the starting tone. If it is Dorian the the note that is considered ONE becomes D. Therefore that chord (Dmin) MUST be the central tonality of the song for it to be a Dorian piece. The thing is the more chords you use from the key of C, the more they gravitationally pull it back to CMajor...that's just how notes work. They get grouped together because they pull naturally to a central tone.So you want to set up a D Dorian piece - It's just CMajor BUT from the perspective of D min being your home tone.Also the common misunderstanding among guitar players is that by changing how they finger a scale they can change the songs modality. Not true at all. It only becomes modal when the underlying chords dictate it to be so. You can hammer your brains out on "Phrygian mode" (meaning the finger pattern) all you want... You are only playing C major still.. BUT if the piece is centered around Emin, and your melodies are using notes from the key of C.... THEN it becomes Phrygian.Make sense?


@ Jeremy_green 
What i get from your post is the fact that the relationship between these modes dictate the starting point (i = 1) aka the note it starts from. And in order of the "I dont particularily lyke modes alot", the chronological order of the variations of modes from the primary mode. (always Ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, locrian)

But the important key your telling me is that the mode is only a specific mode when it is played in a piece centered around a different key. Ex. G lydian mode would be if the piece is in D major. If this IS true, what if it was a D minor, or D diminished??


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

Mogley said:


> But the important key your telling me is that the mode is only a specific mode when it is played in a piece centered around a different key. Ex. G lydian mode would be if the piece is in D major. If this IS true, what if it was a D minor, or D diminished??


That's a good question. I always have assumed that G lydian is G lydian, whether you play it over a G vamp or a Dm vamp. The main practical difference being that it will sound pretty out of place over the Dm (esp. with the major 3rd). This is assuming that you are playing the mode as though it starts and ends with the G notes. If you played a G lydian in the key of Dm and started and ended on D notes, then that is now the D ionian mode. So, as far as I know it's not so much the context of the rhythm key as it is the tonal centre of the lead notes that defines which mode you happen to be soloing in. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Then again it's kind of silly to think to yourself, "Here I am soloing in E phrygian", over a C F G chord progression. Much more sensible to think of it as the C ionian mode with a focus on certain notes. I think. I'm going to bed. It's been a long day.


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## jeremy_green (Nov 10, 2010)

Mogley said:


> @ Jeremy_green
> What i get from your post is the fact that the relationship between these modes dictate the starting point (i = 1) aka the note it starts from. And in order of the "I dont particularily lyke modes alot", the chronological order of the variations of modes from the primary mode. (always Ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, locrian)
> 
> But the important key your telling me is that the mode is only a specific mode when it is played in a piece centered around a different key. Ex. G lydian mode would be if the piece is in D major. If this IS true, what if it was a D minor, or D diminished??


D minor, diminished and D Major are not the same at all.... They all need to be treated differently.

Couple things:

Yes the order of the modes is always the same - as you stated.

The modes correspond to the chords of the major key. So in C you get:

C Major
Dmin
Emin
F Maj
G Maj (dominant)
A min
B Dim (min7b5 - if you extend to the 7ths)

The modes carry a connection to these chords - as I said it really is ALL about the chords. So the first mode (Ionian) is a Major mode... The second (Dorian) is a minor mode, they move with the chords = Major, min, min, Maj, Maj, min diminished.

Ionain - Major
Dorian - minor
Phrygian - minor
Lydian - Major
Mixolydian - Major (dominant)
Aeolian - minor
Locrian - diminished (min7b5)

So to answer your question... for a Dmin chord you could be in D Dorian (Key of C) or D Phrygian (Key of Bb) or D Aeolian (key of F)... The answer to which would be held in what other chords are in the sequence. D diminished would be D Locrian (key of Eb).

I actually did a blog post on some of this with a neck diagram you can download if you like. Here is the link:

http://sixstringobsession.blogspot.com/2010/11/build-your-own-box-patterns.html


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