# Curious, DOES size matter (OT size that is!)?



## RJP110 (Sep 15, 2020)

I have a 3rd power Citizen Gain 40W amp. Sounds great, but a b it lean in the bottom end and punch category. Has Mercury Magnetics transformers and choke but the OT is pretty puny looking. I never really thought much of it, but a buddy who builds amps says that's most likely why the amp lacks authority. Is there any truth to this? I always thought, if it is spec'd properly then that's pretty much all that matters.


----------



## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

As a general rule of thumb with OTs, in my experience at least, more iron = more balls. I'm not an EE so I can't explain or prove that but I don't think my ears have been wrong every single time. 

Best example I can think of is Super Reverb vs BandMaster Reverb: Essentially the same amps but the SR has a much larger OT than the BMR. Through the same cab, one sounds HUGE while the other does not. It's the iron IMO.


----------



## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

If you want an idea of what it takes to get bass response, just look at a picture of an SVT Classic chassis. Big iron = big bass.


----------



## Alan Small (Dec 30, 2019)

speakers play a huge difference in bass response as does the cabinet design....

also speakers accidentally wired out of phase can sound "punchless" and weak

look to this obvious cause first


----------



## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Seriously, there are a few factors at play. Speakers, rated power output and output transformer all contribute the dynamic range. One has to accept that clean bass power (I'm suspecting that's what you're after) is a function of watts into a transformer that has extended bandwidth capability into speakers/cabinet designed to translate that power into sound in the desired frequency range efficiently as possible.


----------



## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

Also...i've read, and experienced between my 18W and the 2204...bigger transformers do help with the sound/tone of down-tuned guitars...


----------



## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

You could check the specs on that Mercury Magnetics output transformer. There is no listing for it on the MM website. The output transformer may not be original or it could be proprietary to 3RDPOWER from Mercury, in which case they may not want people to know...there are manufacturers that are quite private about intellectual information.


----------



## RJP110 (Sep 15, 2020)

Thanks guys. Yeah, the trannies are all MM. I believe they are made for 3rd power though. And yes, I realize cab/speakers play a big role. Speaker and cab are not really the issue here though as I use multiple similar wattage amps through the same cab.


----------



## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Paul Running said:


> You could check the specs on that Mercury Magnetics output transformer. There is no listing for it on the MM website. The output transformer may not be original or it could be proprietary to 3RDPOWER from Mercury, in which case they may not want people to know...there are manufacturers that are quite private about intellectual information.


Indeed they're most likely purpose built Paul. Fender had MM do a line for them when they first introduced the hand wired Tweed Deluxe.


----------



## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

You said it's a 'bit' weak, so you can probably get a 'bit' of increase if the existing OT is choking off some of the power.
However, limitations of the power supply are usually most responsible for power output.
Big OT's are usually found together with big PT's.


----------



## Alan Small (Dec 30, 2019)

RJP110 said:


> Thanks guys. Yeah, the trannies are all MM. I believe they are made for 3rd power though. And yes, I realize cab/speakers play a big role. Speaker and cab are not really the issue here though as I use multiple similar wattage amps through the same cab.


some amps have an output that is out of phase and speaker leads need to be reversed


----------



## DavidP (Mar 7, 2006)

What StevieMac said... 
Another example: put in a larger OT in a Princeton Reverb than the stock one, and you'll be amazed at the better bottom end.


----------

