# A public service announcement



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Political threads or sub-forums in hobby-related forums (and this is one) have a way of ruining otherwise good relationships. It's not so much the fact that views on public policy are discussed. Rather, it is generally the _manner_ in which they are discussed. When it comes to gear, it seems we can easily declare "Here's why I like Telecasters, and am not so big on Les Pauls", rather than "Here's why you're a moron and degenerate for liking Les Pauls". When it comes to political views, we end up more likely so say "Here's where *YOU* are *wrong*", rather than "Here's what I think and why I came to that conclusion". The end result is that folks who get along suddenly find themselves calling each other names. I have to say that in the months following 09/11, the former AMPAGE site - normally a very amicable place from its earliest days - became _very_ unpleasant, with accusations flying around and people calling each other all sorts of unspeakable things. I felt bad for long-time moderator Steve Morrison.

Ironically, so many of us here feel we "know" each other - particularly since it does not normally draw on an immense global population for members - so when it comes to matters of public policy and current events, chewing over such matters here feels a lot like the lunchroom at work, or a donut place, or favorite watering hole. You can't think of anyone you'd rather discuss such matters with than "the regulars". Even if you know they will be contrary. there's nothing wrong with a good substantive challenge (one of the reasons why I love the CBC show The 180 - sometimes it's good to realize "Hmmm, I never quite looked at it _that_ way before".)

But the faceless and nameless internet has a way of bringing out the most unsavoury characteristics of people. Some folks are not especially articulate so they can mis-express themselves. We forget that so many social cues that permit amicable exchange in conversation are missing in posts, and emojis don't take up all the slack. Others are more than articulate enough, but anonymity only encurages them to say things they wouldn't say to anyone's face. Others - and this is a small minority - are true trolls who delight in aggravating. But the vast majority, I believe, simply lose track of how their post might be perceived, and it goes off the rails from there. Verbal shots get fired, and pretty soon everyone's shooting.

It takes work to stay on the rails. Some of that is done by moderators, but that can be draining if people don't take on the responsibility to do some of the work themselves. And in truth, "getting along" is _everybody's_ business. There's a lotta good folks here; some locals and some CFAs (a Newfoundland expression for "come from away" - i.e., from another region or country). I suspect if the site went down for 6 months (heaven forbid!) and then we all met up in some arena with name/handle badges on, we'd all have forgotten whatever caused irritation on the political forum, and get along fabulously. We'd see a handle and think "Oh you're the person who has a thing for Egnater amps/Dr. Scientist pedals/Kay guitars, aren't you? Nice to finally meet in person.".

Mark


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Perhaps we should just close it down. We have lost more than a few members from that forum. Unfortunately not every one can have fun with it and not get personal. I like to throw around some jabs now and again but to me it's all in fun.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

mhammer said:


> Political threads or sub-forums in hobby-related forums (and this is one) have a way of ruining otherwise good relationships. It's not so much the fact that views on public policy are discussed. Rather, it is generally the _manner_ in which they are discussed. When it comes to gear, it seems we can easily declare "Here's why I like Telecasters, and am not so big on Les Pauls", rather than "Here's why you're a moron and degenerate for liking Les Pauls". When it comes to political views, we end up more likely so say "Here's where *YOU* are *wrong*", rather than "Here's what I think and why I came to that conclusion". The end result is that folks who get along suddenly find themselves calling each other names. I have to say that in the months following 09/11, the former AMPAGE site - normally a very amicable place from its earliest days - became _very_ unpleasant, with accusations flying around and people calling each other all sorts of unspeakable things. I felt bad for long-time moderator Steve Morrison.
> 
> Ironically, so many of us here feel we "know" each other - particularly since it does not normally draw on an immense global population for members - so when it comes to matters of public policy and current events, chewing over such matters here feels a lot like the lunchroom at work, or a donut place, or favorite watering hole. You can't think of anyone you'd rather discuss such matters with than "the regulars". Even if you know they will be contrary. there's nothing wrong with a good substantive challenge (one of the reasons why I love the CBC show The 180 - sometimes it's good to realize "Hmmm, I never quite looked at it _that_ way before".)
> 
> ...


Who are you calling, "not especially articulate"?

Thems be fighting words...


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

Odd.

I've never really learned much from those I agree with 100%, and I've certainly never lost a friendship over a political dispute.

If someone wants to bail because they're feelings get hurt over a political discussion, well, that's probably okay...


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

As someone who has moderated forums since before there was an Internet (who remembers BBSs? Bix? Datapac? Usenet?) I can say it is a very hard and often thankless job. I have no problem when on a well moderated forum like this the moderator steps in and says enough. I'd hate to see part of the forum close because a few people can't get along but if the problem continues I can understand why it must happen. It's easy to just ignore a conversation when someone gets political. I never even looked at the conversation in question because of the title I knew exactly where it would end. Let's stick to talking about guitars.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Pretty much pointed at you, Steve. While I strongly agree with your views, your combative and very very troll like presentations just don't do it for most of us.

And I know full well I can get in trouble for pointing it out.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

keto said:


> Pretty much pointed at you, Steve. While I strongly agree with your views, your combative and very very troll like presentations just don't do it for most of us.
> 
> And I know full well I can get in trouble for pointing it out.


Oh.

I see.

I don't care.

I've certainly found myself in the crosshairs here for voicing my opinions. If someone doesn't like my opinions, that's fine. I really, really, couldn't care. But when someone takes a swipe at me, personally, for expressing them, well, I'll bring it back tenfold.

If that's the equivalent of being a troll, well, I don't care about that, either...


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Perhaps we should just close it down. We have lost more than a few members from that forum. Unfortunately not every one can have fun with it and not get personal. I like to throw around some jabs now and again but to me it's all in fun.


It seems a bit heavy handed closing down an interesting and often enlightening thread because of the actions of a few. It's kind of like having a teacher make everyone stay in after school because little Billy Marsden cheated on the spelling test.

We have rules here, so why not expel the culprits and move on. There's no room for trolls when people are engaged in a seemingly serious discussion. (incidentally I never visited the thread in question, so I'm not directing my comments to any individuals)

If we have to lose members, let's lose the ignorant ones and save the insightful ones.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

fdsgsdfg


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

Steve6D said:


> Oh.
> 
> I see.
> 
> ...


It's not your opinion that people don't like. In fact, having someone from Florida on a Canadian forum makes it even more interesting. 

It's how you phrase your post. 

You should care if it makes you sound trollish, this very "whatever you say, I have my opinion and I don't care" is what people don't like. 

Freedom of speech does not entitle people into being jerks. 
When posting makes someone sound like a jerk, it's not a good thing. 

Troll is the Internet word for jerk. And people don't like trolls, or jerk, and most forums just ban them being that the moderators have more interesting things to do that handle them. 

Like, say, post about guitars. 
Or play guitars. 

But don't listend to me, I'm just a dog, dogs can't play guitars.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Krelf said:


> It seems a bit heavy handed closing down an interesting and often enlightening thread because of the actions of a few. It's kind of like having a teacher make everyone stay in after school because little Billy Marsden cheated on the spelling test.
> 
> We have rules here, so why not expel the culprits and move on. There's no room for trolls when people are engaged in a seemingly serious discussion. (incidentally I never visited the thread in question, so I'm not directing my comments to any individuals)
> 
> If we have to lose members, let's lose the ignorant ones and save the insightful ones.


Billy cheated so he could play football for Wednesday.


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)




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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> Billy cheated so he could play football for Wednesday.


Hey,hey, let's not get personal here, LOL.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Jamdog said:


>


Where's the other two?


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

davetcan said:


> Hey,hey, let's not get personal here, LOL.


Well I guess we could get United about this if you want.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

It's sometimes hard to remember this is the faceless internet. I've said it before and I'll say it again, 99 times out 100 I answer everything with a smile on my face. I try to make my posts as clear as possible, which I don't always do, I'm only human. I wish some of these discussions could be had face to face over a cold, or hot, beverage, but alas distance prevents it. Taking things too personally on here, or any website, can be a stressful thing, I know that's why we lost a few regulars from the political forum. With the Liberals in power it's become the bastion of the Conservatives (I'm one of them). When Harper was in power it was the bastion of the Liberals. The complainers ALWAYS have more to say. nature of the beast.

It's NOT personal but if you can't take it any other way it's best not to be there. Huge kudos to Mark for toughing it out as long as he has


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

Electraglide said:


> Where's the other two?


Hiding in the case


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Now I presume that you're talking about 'The Pub' and some of the threads that have been shut down.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Like I said: "getting along" is _everybody's_ business.

That also means biting one's own tongue when you feel someone has crossed a line, and trying to massage better behaviour out of them. If you perceive someone being as what seems to you troll-like, the situation is not improved by accusations of trolling. It is improved by shifting the focus to something less adversarial or confrontational, or perhaps encouraging elaboration of a point of view; facilitating discussion rather than argument.

The idea is to make the moderator's job _easier_, not harder. Lord knows he has a hard enough time just trying to get the software to work.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

davetcan said:


> It's sometimes hard to remember this is the faceless internet. I've said it before and I'll say it again, 99 times out 100 I answer everything with a smile on my face. I try to make my posts as clear as possible, which I don't always do, I'm only human. I wish some of these discussions could be had face to face over a cold, or hot, beverage, but alas distance prevents it. Taking things too personally on here, or any website, can be a stressful thing, I know that's why we lost a few regulars from the political forum. With the Liberals in power it's become the bastion of the Conservatives (I'm one of them). When Harper was in power it was the bastion of the Liberals. The complainers ALWAYS have more to say. nature of the beast.
> 
> It's NOT personal but if you can't take it any other way it's best not to be there. Huge kudos to Mark for toughing it out as long as he has


There's a political forum? It's a good thing some of these discussions aren't being had face to face over a few cold ones.....some one could get hurt.


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

mhammer said:


> It is improved by shifting the focus to something less adversarial or confrontational


For that to actually work, the other party must be willing to get into something less adversarial and less confrontational. It isn't always the case.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

True, but I think it's one's civic responsibility to at least try. If it doesn't work, walk away.
Like Bart Simpson says: A Simpson never gives up until they've tried at least one easy thing once. 

(I tried looking for the scene on Frinkiac - Frinkiac - but I must have the wording wrong)


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Sometimes it's just best to remove yourself from the situation. There will ALWAYS be someone that just goes on and on and on. At some point you just gotta call it a day.

I'm generally reluctant to call someone out (a few special cases excepted). There have been occasions when someone says something I think is so stupid and rude (sometimes maybe I misinterpret it) that I just wanna call 'em like I see 'em. However, if I did that all the time, there would be several people here who I genuinely like that I probably wouldn't be on speaking terms with.

That being said, there are other people here who generally know my mindset (and I them) that I feel comfortable calling a jerk (or them calling me) when they (I) say something stupid that I know they won't take it as anything more than what it is. (Did that make sense? Seemed convoluted to me).

There are a few people that DO say things I find offensive with a great deal of regularity, those, I just put them on ignore (hey Steve) or leave them un-ignored but just choose not to reply to anything they say which offends me.

Mostly though, when I do succumb to temptation...I sincerely do feel badly about it afterwards, whether it was justified or not. Along with that, part of honestly being sorry is making an attempt not to repeat the same behaviour.

It pretty much just comes down to self-control.


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## Jamdog (Mar 9, 2016)

mhammer said:


> True, but I think it's one's civic responsibility to at least try. If it doesn't work, walk away.
> Like Bart Simpson says: A Simpson never gives up until they've tried at least one easy thing once.
> 
> (I tried looking for the scene on Frinkiac - Frinkiac - but I must have the wording wrong)


I tought it was "can't win. Don't try". 


Lol


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

JBFairthorne said:


> It pretty much just comes down to self-control.


Sadly, one of the rarest of commodities. Sigh.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Any thread or comments that remotely set off a "Danger Will Robinson! Danger!!" alert with me, I try to keep light years away from.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

JBFairthorne said:


> Sometimes it's just best to remove yourself from the situation.


*SOMETIMES* is a key word. Saying nothing as the other extreme on that line is downright dangerous human behaviour -- dictators and totalitarians gain power under that framework, but passivity has major deleterious impact on humans every day even without that extreme.

I have an intellectual (if not always, or even often, emotionally successful) philosophy that extremes of anything and in particular behaviour are the most damaging, balances around the middle without fence-sitting paralysis is where all real human magic happens.



JBFairthorne said:


> It pretty much just comes down to self-control.


Amen, brother. I so wish I had so much more of it myself in daily life.

P.S. "I’m a Simpson. And a Simpson never gives up until he tries at least one easy thing." ("The Simpsons" Season 21 Quotes | Planet Claire Quotes)


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Krelf said:


> It seems a bit heavy handed closing down an interesting and often enlightening thread because of the actions of a few. It's kind of like having a teacher make everyone stay in after school because little Billy Marsden cheated on the spelling test.
> 
> We have rules here, so why not expel the culprits and move on. There's no room for trolls when people are engaged in a seemingly serious discussion. (incidentally I never visited the thread in question, so I'm not directing my comments to any individuals)
> 
> If we have to lose members, let's lose the ignorant ones and save the insightful ones.


I was not talking about a single thread, I was talking about the whole Political forum. It has led to more than a few people leaving our community. Some people don't like being called out, some can't take a rub and some take it way too seriously.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2016)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Some people don't like being called out, some can't take a rub and some take it way too seriously.


The pussies should stay out of that forum then. Simple.

As to the practice of shutting down a thread because of a couple of individuals who get out of control,
I'll re-recomend what I mentioned a couple of years back when this same topic came up then.
Put them in the 'penalty box'. _*They*_ are shut out from further comment on the thread.



Jamdog said:


> It's how you phrase your post.


Reminds me of a former boss who used to say something similar to shoot down a person's idea/proposal.
'It's not what you say, it's how you say it', was his line.
I once shot back, 'Well then, listen to what I say, not how I say it'.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

laristotle said:


> The pussies should stay out of that forum then. Simple.
> 
> As to the practice of shutting down a thread because of a couple of individuals who get out of control,
> I'll re-recomend what I mentioned a couple of years back when this same topic came up then.
> Put them in the 'penalty box'. _*They*_ are shut out from further comment on the thread.


I imagine that is hard to do on a selective basis. First off, why should Scott be saddled with the obligation of determining who is "most at fault"? I should think that determination is well above most of our pay-grades. Second, I'm not so sure the software allows , say, myself to be blocked from _this _discussion but not all others.



> Reminds me of a former boss who used to say something similar to shoot down a person's idea/proposal.
> 'It's not what you say, it's how you say it', was his line.
> I once shot back, 'Well then, listen to what I say, not how I say it'.


...and that particular interaction and suggestion has worked like a charm for virtually all interactions between parents and teenagers.
Nope, no real viable replacement for thinking and editting before one posts. It's a burden, I know, but we all reap the rewards.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Perhaps we should just close it down. We have lost more than a few members from that forum. Unfortunately not every one can have fun with it and not get personal. I like to throw around some jabs now and again but to me it's all in fun.


Probably a good idea.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2016)

mhammer said:


> .. why should Scott be saddled with the obligation of determining who is "most at fault"?


He doesn't have to decide who. Both (or 3/4/5) who cross the line are.



mhammer said:


> Nope, no real viable replacement for thinking and editing before one posts.
> It's a burden, I know, but we all reap the rewards.


After a few times in the 'penalty box', they may eventually learn to do that.
I've come back to apologize regarding some of my comments in the past.
I now take the time to re-read what I type prior to hitting 'post reply'.
I still put my foot in my mouth sometimes though. lol.
However, I do pay attention to the wisdom of a counter argument because, 'I did not know that!'.
That! is why I think the 'political forum' should remain.
It is 'enter at your own risk' after all.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

mhammer said:


> I imagine that is hard to do on a selective basis. First off, why should Scott be saddled with the obligation of determining who is "most at fault"? I should think that determination is well above most of our pay-grades. Second, I'm not so sure the software allows , say, myself to be blocked from _this _discussion but not all others.
> .


You are correct on both accounts. Kurt and I try our best not to inflict our personal opinions on others. Our motto here has always been that everyone is entitled to an opinion. If I banned everyone that I disagreed with what kind of a place would this be? Plus as you say the software does not allow for that. What we have done is moved any contentious threads into the political forum, which is a join at your own risk type of thing. But as mentioned some people can't take it in there. Its a personality thing. You my friend can get under my skin instantly. But I also know you speak from the heart and that you are a good person. So I can have it out with you today in there and would be more than happy to have dinner and drinks with you tomorrow. But thats me, not everyone can separate things.

Having said all that there is someone itching to get banned here and I have not "pulled the trigger" in a long time. It's coming


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Religion and politics are something I leave alone. I know that sometimes I do take things personally. Hell, it's the internet and I should know better!


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I wouldn't remove it. The arguments will simply take place in the Pub - first under the guise of harmless chit-chat and then it'll turn sour.

Some member(s) just want to argue. I don't mind - I like seeing people get fired up, but it tends to get adolescent which is kinda lame (coming from me?).


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2016)

It all depends on how funny the comeback is.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2016)

Lola said:


> Religion and politics are something I leave alone.


So do I.
Until we have at least 4 beers in us. lol.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

laristotle said:


> So do I.
> Until we have at least 4 beers in us. lol.


I gladly leave them alone if only they'd leave me alone.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Posting politcally charged topics in the Pub is one problem.
I'm not sure that a lot of people are even aware that there's a political forum, it took me a while to realize that.

At least with the political forum, those threads aren't just nuked but simply moved to that private area.
I thought that forum added another dimension to this place, not found in other forums.
If you're so inclined, you do have the opportunity to discuss such topics.

Under the old software, you used to be able to opt in or out at your leisure.
I bailed out of there nearing our election last year, I had enough.
Now that you have to bother Scott to get in or out, I won't bother.

I can only imagine the fun times in there now!


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Lola said:


> Religion and politics are something I leave alone. I know that sometimes I do take things personally. Hell, it's the internet and I should know better!


This is the reason I don't post in the Political Section, I do take things personal and I know I would respond in a bad way. Why get all pissed off because someone is being a troll or just simply has a different opinion then you? Not worth the aggravation in my opinion. I wouldn't close it down, sometimes there is some good reading there, lol.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

this is because of the missing thead discussing the thread that was temporarily closed? you guys can say what you want but there are 2 solid facts none of you can hide from

1) the o/p shouldn't have posted that thread in the pub. no one can pretend for one second they didn't see this coming.
2) staff here should not have allowed the thread to remain in the pub. again, no one can state with any real conviction that the outcome wasn't entirely predictable.

how bout we just play by the rules and see how that goes? some of you guys (one of whom doesn't even post in the political forum) want to close it, and blow it for everybody else.
if someone goes into the political forum, it's enter at your own risk. if someone quits over that it was their own fault. they knew what they were getting into.
i like it in there. i know dam well i'm not going to change anyone's mind. i just enjoy the debate. now some of you guys want to puss out and take it away because the rules designed to keep order were not followed by the members, and not enforced by the staff here. i'm not always critical of the personnel, but truth is, the ball was dropped, like it or not. i said before things got ugly didn't i ?
i'm not wiley coyote, i know dam well i'm not the only one who saw this coming a mile and a half down the road. i say we just stick to the established rules, and avoid problems like this in the future.
leave the political forum the way it is. i like it there. others do as well, or it would be empty and silent. if this place is going to become tgp, what the hell good is that? someone else is out there already running an overly moderated forum. if this place is going to become a place where i have to walk on eggshells, it loses much of its appeal. 

*don't close the political forum, just follow and enforce the fricken rules*


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm ok with the existance of a political forum, but the relentless back and forth crap between the right and left just got aggravating.

That doesn't mean I want to deny others the option of having such "discussions".

It's not difficult to take yourself out of the political forum.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

"Discussion" allows us to recognize, reflect and realize views we may not be familiar or comfortable with. Many of us have lost the will for, and the art of, meaningful discussion. We are all the poorer for that.

dis·cus·sion
dəˈskəSH(ə)n/
_noun_

the action or process of talking about something, typically in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas.
"the proposals are not a blueprint but ideas for discussion"
a conversation or debate about a certain topic.
plural noun: *discussions*
"discussions about environmental improvement programs"
synonyms: conversation, talk, dialogue, discourse, conference, debate, exchange of views,consultation, deliberation; More


a detailed treatment of a particular topic in speech or writing.
synonyms: examination, exploration, analysis, study; 
treatment, consideration
"the book's candid discussion of sexual matters"


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

See...now I'm wondering who the offending party Scott has been putting off booting is. I mean, I have a good idea but...(of course I'm not asking who it is. That's Scott's business).

As far as closing a forum. I'm definitely against it if someone doesn't mid enforcing the rules.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There is a fuzzy line between "Open Mic" and "Political". Obviously, matters of public policy, public opinion, government, etc., are, by definition, not music-related. At the same time, there are a lot of non-music-related topics - e.g., events in the news - that can quickly turn _into_ matters of public policy. Folks may post a thread in Open Mic, under the assumption that it's the most suitable place for a didja-hear-about thread, and after a dozen posts it has turned squarely into a political thread. 

Witness this one. It was intended as simply a reminder to behave in a manner that keeps threads of pretty much any kind from getting overheated, although it was prompted by a different thread that started out here and had to be moved to the political forum when temperatures rose.

It happens.

I'm not sure what advice to give, because, like I said, it's a very fuzzy line. I guess the best advice is to ponder how touchy the subject might be, and the likelihood that it will evoke strong opinions about what's right, wrong, laudable, or contemptible. Place the thread accordingly, and behave accordingly.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

The Political forum has no rules. It is an unmoderated forum. Of course it is best to try and conduct ourselves in somewhat of a civilized manner. A little common courtesy goes a long way. But in the end whatever goes on in there is not going to be monitored or moderated


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I don't I don't think that there is a fuzzy line. You either say something religious or political or you don't.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

adcandour said:


> I don't I don't think that there is a fuzzy line. You either say something religious or political or you don't.


I think where he is coming from is a lot of threads dont start out that way but then become political. I have had to move tons out of there into the political forum.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I think where he is coming from is a lot of threads dont start out that way but then become political. I have had to move tons out of there into the political forum.


I understood, but the thing is at some point within that thread someone chooses to say the wrong thing


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

And, and, just to be clear, the real issue here isn't the content of the post, it's the delivery.


When you call someone an idiot because they don't share the same view, it rubs people the wrong way. None of us do that here, save the person we're beating the bush around.

It's never been about the content


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

We're beating the around the bush because...well...he's an (insert your own applicable description here) and most of us here share a certain level of personal courtesy that is completely unknown to him.

Honestly, I'm in the "a fat lip is a good learning opportunity" camp. Most of what I learned regarding how to behave growing up came from either witnessing, getting or trying to avoid a punch in the mouth.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I, personally, like the political forum.

Some of the posts not so much. In general though, I like seeing others points of view. I occasionally contribute and try to state my opinion and the reasons why.

There are things in this world that ought to be discussed and out it the open. Banning them, or not talking about them is not going to make the issues disappear. The topics are enlightening, if the thread stays on track. Intelligent debate over the issues is a lot better than not talking about it and letting feelings get pent up. At least with discussion, those feelings can be expressed and vented instead of being repressed and allowed to fester into something that is worse.

It does not matter what political stripe you come from. Each side has its merits and faults. We are all in this together, and only through debate and discussion can we form reasonable conclusions. Just keep the personal swipes out of it.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

Jim has nailed it. Topics shouldn't be banned. Bad behaviour should be discouraged by intelligent and carefully constructed rebuttal.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

The age discrepancy in members is a big factor as well with the levels of maturity being blind. I recall on another forum, an argument when someone lashed out "childish" and the reply was" "well, i'm sixteen". That ended that pretty quickly.


I participated on the thread that got deleted - I believe the other individual got what he wanted and I got what I wanted - for him to state his position. What is interesting is that after all is said and done, we are fairly close on our views. Too bad it went sideways and I broke my own rule - don't get in the mud with the pig.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

I see that a thread is gone. I was busy and offline most of yesterday so I'm not sure what happened, but I was engaged in a debate there myself, so if anything I said is part of what's being discussed here I apologize. I did not say anything in anger, and was just trying to have a discussion, but it is the internet (no benefit of non-verbal clues as to one's tone or intent) so I understand that things can be misconstrued and lead to escalation. I think it is incumbent on posters in such threads to police themselves in that regard and walk away (at least temporarily) if they feel they are starting to get too emotionally engaged. 

I strongly agree with what ronmac said re: discussion on the previous page in this thread.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I think it was simply moved, not eliminated.

RE: the 16 year-old comment

I intermittently have to remind people that there is no central scrutinizer that determines who is and isn't allowed on the internet. And it is a VERY big world, chock full of very different sorts of people, and all you need to get on the internet is a net connection..

We had an "incident" about a dozen years back on the stompbox forum, where an individual began posting on a single topic...frequently, and near obsessively. The writing style was immediately recognizable to me as someone with Asperger's Syndrome, but not equally recognizable as such to all. Many members were convinced the posts were some sort of software "bot". Others were convinced it was malicious trolling. And flames were getting lit. The poor bugger had little clue how he was making members irritated. In his mind, he was just "participating", and people were spewing all this venom at him. I contacted him off-line and gave him some explicit instructions for how to structure and limit his posts so that people would be friendlier and more helpful. For instance, he would ask a succession of dozens of questions in a single paragraph, making it impossible for people to be able to answer him without dedicating an afternoon to crafting a reply. I told him to limit his posts to no more than 5 questions, which he complied with, and got some calmer replies.

For those who were getting ready to go medieval on the guy, I would contact them offline and direct them to an Asperger's information site, at which point the lights would come on and they'd realize what they and the (initially) offending person were dealing with. Everyone would calm down, and responses were less hostile.

The guy eventually went away (not that this was the purpose of my intervention), and we think came back briefly a few years later under another handle. But his continuing presence/absence and his particular condition are not the important point here. What matters is that anyone can be on the internet and leap into this forum (or any other), and one always needs to be prepared for the perspective of people who can be very different from oneself in all sorts of ways: age, sex, language, socio-economic status, culture, cognitive status, personal experience, and so on. Patience becomes as critical a utility as a working keyboard.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Oh, just read the thread about that in Open Mic - gotta request access or I can't see it.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

JBFairthorne said:


> See...now I'm wondering who the offending party Scott has been putting off booting is. I mean, I have a good idea but...(of course I'm not asking who it is. That's Scott's business).
> 
> As far as closing a forum. I'm definitely against it if someone doesn't mid enforcing the rules.



I don't even participate very much on the PF but I already know who the offending party is. And...........Sherlock Holmes I am not!

Just carry on in an adult manner and those who can't stand the heat should get the hell out of the kitchen. It's your choice to be there. No twisting of arms required!

I have a couple of people take shots at me outside of the PF. I don't care. For me to give them recognition is like taking the bait. I don't really give a shit anymore. I have more important things to contend with in life. C'mon people it's the internet. You shouldn't pour your heart and soul into what others think of you or even care for that matter!

It's all in how you deal with it!~


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Lola said:


> I don't even participate very much on the PF but I already know who the offending party is. And...........Sherlock Holmes I am not!
> 
> Just carry on in an adult manner and those who can't stand the heat should get the hell out of the kitchen. It's your choice to be there. No twisting of arms required!
> 
> ...


Can't stand the heat is one way to say it.

Don't need the friction is another.

I can get stress and aggravation almost anywhere.

I don 't come here for that.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Alex said:


> The age discrepancy in members is a big factor as well with the levels of maturity being blind. I recall on another forum, an argument when someone lashed out "childish" and the reply was" "well, i'm sixteen". That ended that pretty quickly.


+1 to that. When I was 20, I would get in a fist fight with someone if they didn't like Yes. And there were a lot of people who didn't like Yes (kind of my Boy Named Sue training....). Now I realize it's me that's got the problem, not them. With age, experience and maturity, my buttons are much smaller and much harder to access. And I'm a happier dude - although my foitin' skills have gone to shite.

I can probably predict the age of some of the poster by their response to the guy riling them up. Because I can see where I was at certain ages.

I used to be on the defensive when the C's were in power, now it's fun (and damned easy) putting the L's on the defensive. But this too will change back and forth. If you can't take it, you shouldn't be dishing it out.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i dunno, but i always just liked the back and forth. there isn't anyone here i wouldn't have at my dinner table, even if he isn't smart enough to know i'm always right.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

cheezyridr said:


> i dunno, but i always just liked the back and forth. there isn't anyone here i wouldn't have at my dinner table, even if he isn't smart enough to know i'm always right.


Oh so THAT'S it! I _*knew *_there was something I was missing. My undying gratitude for clearing things up. The pieces finally fit together.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

adcandour said:


> I wouldn't remove it. The arguments will simply take place in the Pub - first under the guise of harmless chit-chat and then it'll turn sour.
> 
> Some member(s) just want to argue. I don't mind - I like seeing people get fired up, but it tends to get adolescent which is kinda lame (coming from me?).


I agree, sh1t can happen anywhere. We lost a great craftsman & guitar builder over an argument in guitar building section about Titebond glue once. Friggin wood glue......that's all it takes.

And I know I'll get a nasty PM from the guy who didn't leave the forum over the glue disagreement because he always sends me one whenever I bring this up. Even years later he can't let it go.

and obviously I can't either B#(*


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2016)

Lincoln said:


> Friggin wood glue...


Two part epoxy is the best to work with.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> there isn't anyone here i wouldn't have at my dinner table, even if he isn't smart enough to know i'm always right.


Me either - but you have to check your gun at the door


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

mhammer said:


> Oh so THAT'S it! I _*knew *_there was something I was missing. My undying gratitude for clearing things up. The pieces finally fit together.



well, i'm relieved to hear that all my hard work with you will pay off! i saw your potential early on, so...
but what your REALLY missing, is my sausage and potato soup, and german apple cake. when you have those, THEN you will know _true _enlightenment


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

allthumbs56 said:


> Me either - but you have to check your gun at the door


i never bring guns to dinner. it gets in the way of my eatin hand


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Some people just love to be argumentative and obnoxious. They're always right. They will pick a fight over anything and I really do mean anything.

Trolls are everywhere~~ Life is just too damned short for sh1t like this!

Now homemade Ukranian perogies are true enlightenment!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

For true enlightenment, good fresh salmon sashimi is the way for me.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Milkman said:


> For true enlightenment, good fresh salmon sashimi is the way for me.


I know you're not likely to ever be in the Newmarket area, but if you are, there's a sushi place that will out-do all (save-one that the owner says is comparable).

It's a small shithole, but it's an experience like no other. If he doesn't boot you out for no reason, he's a pleasure (he's kinda like the soup nazi, and seems to have lost his mind, unfortunately). 

Ask for Chef's Choice. It'll cost about $100 with no saki/drinks, but it's well worth it (especially if you are enlightened by high quality sashimi).

If you didn't hate people, I'd take you


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

adcandour said:


> I know you're not likely to ever be in the Newmarket area, but if you are, there's a sushi place that will out-do all (save-one that the owner says is comparable).
> 
> It's a small shithole, but it's an experience like no other. If he doesn't boot you out for no reason, he's a pleasure (he's kinda like the soup nazi, and seems to have lost his mind, unfortunately).
> 
> ...


Hate is a bit strong, but yes, I prefer being around animals or at least, away from crowds.

I do appreciate high end sashimi though. PM me the name of the place if you don't mind. I have some Japanese friends who would be interested.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Hey, don't keep that a secret (is it Solo Sushi Ya; not been yet, but wanna).


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

Milkman said:


> Hate is a bit strong, but yes, I prefer being around animals


I would rather hang out with my dog then most people I know. I prefer my own company anyways!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

If you can't stand being alone, how can you expect others to want to be around you?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

cheezyridr said:


> i dunno, but i always just liked the back and forth. there isn't anyone here i wouldn't have at my dinner table, even if he isn't smart enough to know i'm always right.


"People who think they're always right really bug those of us that are."


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

This thread is turning into a collection of quotes, which is a good outcome in my opinion.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Milkman said:


> Hate is a bit strong, but yes, I prefer being around animals or at least, away from crowds.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> I know you're not a hater - I'm just messin' and will continue to over-exaggerate in the future
> ...


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Hey, don't keep that a secret (is it Solo Sushi Ya; not been yet, but wanna).


That's the one - I'm glad it's on your radar; it's a must for sushi lovers.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Nice. Apparently they have a second location downtown called Solo Sushi Bekkan. Not sure if as good, but I will try that first because it's close to my workplace.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

High/Deaf said:


> "People who think they're always right really bug those of us that are."



that's so true


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