# My First Strat - It will not stay in tune



## chiasson.matthew (Oct 20, 2021)

I recently bought my first stratocaster - A new American Professional II, olympic white. I love playing it, I love you how is sounds, I love how it looks. 

My problem is it just will not stay in tune.

I have been a Les Paul player since I started playing, but decided I wanted to get my hands on some single coils.

So I bought the guitar from Sherwood Music in Kitchener. I didn't notice any issues when I was playing in the shop. When I got it home the issues started.

As is usually the case, the G string is the main culprit. Any bends seem to send it flat. I couldnt make it through a single song while staying in tune. I don't live about 45 minutes from Kitchener in Milton, so I first took it to a local shop, get Loud Music, for the guys there to take a look at it. They slammed the bridge down, put a new set of strings on, and it seemed to to be ok. But after some more playing the same issues came back.

Next I took it back to Sherwood and explained my problem. They took it into their shop. They polished the nut slots, lubricated the nut and reset the intonation. After a quick test it seemed to mostly sorted out. But after some more rigorous playing, the same issues are back.

Here are some of my observations:

When I bend any string, it might go flat. The G can go really flat, the others to a lesser degree
When I pull on the tremolo, the strings return to approximately in-tune after being flat
The tremolo is set very low so I don't have much play to push it down, but with the play that I do have, I can send all strings very sharp
I have ordered some more lubricant to try re-lubricating the nut and add some to the bridge, but I am not convinced that will solve my problem. 

I have seen that such issues are not uncommon with strats, but I have not seen any concrete fix yet. 

So here I am canvassing the community for suggestions. What else should I try? Alternatively, any experts in the west GTA area that I should consider contacting?

Thanks for reading!


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

It probably needs a proper setup. When a strat trem is floating like it should you wont habe those problems.


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## Mikev7305 (Jan 6, 2020)

Sounds like you either need to drive the trem claw into the body a bit more, or add another spring. How many springs are in it right now?


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Are the strings wound around the tuning posts properly?


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## chiasson.matthew (Oct 20, 2021)

Thanks for the responses guys, I appreciate it. 



knight_yyz said:


> It probably needs a proper setup. When a strat trem is floating like it should you wont habe those problems.


It was set up when I bought it, and then looked at twice more. I don’t think it is a standard set up issue.



bw66 said:


> Are the strings wound around the tuning posts properly?


Yes, the string winding looks fine. Two separate techs have installed strings on the guitar, and the issue has not been resolved. 



Mikev7305 said:


> Sounds like you either need to drive the trem claw into the body a bit more, or add another spring. How many springs are in it right now?


I’ll have to confirm that, but whatever is stock on the American Pro II strats is what is in there


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Do you always tune "up" to pitch? If not, it could be as simple as a bit of play in the tuners.


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## Jeffery Young (Mar 5, 2019)

You may be encountering this effect.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

This is why I appreciate my Tremsetter, bend the nuts off strings all day long and right back to zero she goes.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

At the risk of being cyber-tarred and net-feathered…

Not to assume anything, but not every “tech” is created equal. Some techs aren‘t much more than glorified store clerks, others have Elora Gorge sized gaps in their knowledge and ability. 

Or perhaps I’m projecting…LOL


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Makes me wo Derek shy z


Brunz said:


> This is why I appreciate my Tremsetter, bend the nuts off strings all day long and right back to zero she goes.


You have a Strat Plus I think? LSR roller nut, locking tuners and no string tree help as well.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

What gauge of strings? Did you stick to the stock 9 42 or whatever it was?


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

tomee2 said:


> You have a Strat Plus I think? LSR roller nut, locking tuners and no string tree help as well.


I do... and they do, but even all that being equal, I dont think it hurts at all 
I have played on a lot of trems and they all seem to suffer the same fate... there is only one piece that is different.


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## chiasson.matthew (Oct 20, 2021)

Mooh said:


> At the risk of being cyber-tarred and net-feathered…
> 
> Not to assume anything, but not every “tech” is created equal. Some techs aren‘t much more than glorified store clerks, others have Elora Gorge sized gaps in their knowledge and ability.
> 
> Or perhaps I’m projecting…LOL


This is definitely true. I don’t have a go-to guy that I know will be able to diagnose and correct the issue. I had confidence that the guys at Sherwood were going to have it straightened away, alas that was not the case. To their credit they did not charge me. If I lived in Kitchener I would already be back there.

I found a place in Oakville, Gear Music, that seems to have many good reviews. That might be my next stop.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Did you stretch the new strings enough?


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

How far from Niagara on the Lake? Freddies Frets is where I go.


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## chiasson.matthew (Oct 20, 2021)

Budda said:


> Did you stretch the new strings enough?


Oh yes. Stretched them hard, and often.




tomee2 said:


> What gauge of strings? Did you stick to the stock 9 42 or whatever it was?


Had the issue with the stock 9s, changed to a set of 10s. Both sets have been stretched more than I have stretched any set in the past. I can confidently say that the issue is not the strings settling.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

chiasson.matthew said:


> Oh yes. Stretched them hard, and often.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was wondering if you went up to much bigger strings without getting the nut slot checked.


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## chiasson.matthew (Oct 20, 2021)

tomee2 said:


> I was wondering if you went up to much bigger strings without getting the nut slot checked.


After the 10s were installed I had the nut polished and lubricated. I have never heard any pings that would come with strings binding in the nut, but it is possible I guess?

The fact that I can bend the G string to drive it flat, and then dump the tremolo to bring it back to the correct pitch makes me think it has to do with the bridge/tremolo system. Bending the string and releasing it reduced the tension on it, making it go flat. Then dumping the tremolo brings it back even though that is further reducing the tension on the string temporarily.
Possible that the strings are catching on the bridge somehow?
I just ordered some Nut Sauce that I will try on my bridge. Fingers crossed it will help, but I’m not holding my breath.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I wonder if @zztomato might have a comment.

I suspect my man Steve Blundon here in Brantford would be able to solve this quickly or at least correctly diagnose the problem.


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## chiasson.matthew (Oct 20, 2021)

Milkman said:


> I wonder if @zztomato might have a comment.
> 
> I suspect my man Steve Blundon here in Brantford would be able to solve this quickly or at least correctly diagnose the problem.


Thanks for the guitar tech recommendation. I’ll probably get in touch with him. It would be well worth a drive to Branford. If I can get this sorted out.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

I'd have to have a look at it to determine what the problem is but, the nut is important, proper general setup is important and the setup of the trem is super important. Is it a 6 screw mount or 2 point? Also, are you floating the trem? One thing that most techs do not pay attention to on a floating trem is the way the base sits. It really should not touch the body otherwise it drags and will get hung up. Even on a 6 screw mount, you let the outside screws take the weight and they should not be pressing the trem base into the paint.

If this is your first strat though, there is a learning curve to playing them. If you go a little out of tune, sometimes it's just a matter of a quick pull or bend to put you back in tune- you have to get used to which is which depending on the situation. I currently have two 2 point strats and one vintage. None of them give me any trouble and I don't do the nut sauce or and kind of lubricant. Just a well cut bone nut and proper setup with a slight float. If you don't need the string tree, that's a good thing to get rid of too.

If the strings sit deep in the nut, you should really get a new one cut. the more material touching the string, the more chance the string will get hung up in the nut slot.


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## chiasson.matthew (Oct 20, 2021)

zztomato said:


> I'd have to have a look at it to determine what the problem is but, the nut is important, proper general setup is important and the setup of the trem is super important. Is it a 6 screw mount or 2 point? Also, are you floating the trem? One thing that most techs do not pay attention to on a floating trem is the way the base sits. It really should not touch the body otherwise it drags and will get hung up. Even on a 6 screw mount, you let the outside screws take the weight and they should not be pressing the trem base into the paint.
> 
> If this is your first strat though, there is a learning curve to playing them. If you go a little out of tune, sometimes it's just a matter of a quick pull or bend to put you back in tune- you have to get used to which is which depending on the situation. I currently have two 2 point strats and one vintage. None of them give me any trouble and I don't do the nut sauce or and kind of lubricant. Just a well cut bone nut and proper setup with a slight float. If you don't need the string tree, that's a good thing to get rid of too.
> 
> If the strings sit deep in the nut, you should really get a new one cut. the more material touching the string, the more chance the string will get hung up in the nut slot.


Thanks for the reply. It is a two screw tremolo, that is just barely floating. I had it slammed down just about flush with the body so there’s hardly any play when pulling on the whammy bar.

I appreciate the learning curve of playing a new style of guitar, but there is no way anyone could play the guitar in its current state and be satisfied. Needing to dump the tremolo after every two semi-tone bend is no way to live.

I have a string tree for the first and second strings, those aren’t the main culprits here though.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

chiasson.matthew said:


> Thanks for the reply. It is a two screw tremolo, that is just barely floating. I had it slammed down just about flush with the body so there’s hardly any play when pulling on the whammy bar.
> 
> I appreciate the learning curve of playing a new style of guitar, but there is no way anyone could play the guitar in its current state and be satisfied. Needing to dump the tremolo after every two semi-tone bend is no way to live.
> 
> I have a string tree for the first and second strings, those aren’t the main culprits here though.


You probably just need to take it to someone who understands the little nuances of setting up a strat trem. Sometimes it's an accumulation of minor adjustments that add up to better performance.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

My “never fail” techs are at Folkway in Waterloo. They are more renowned for their acoustic knowledge, but they know electrics inside and out. I think Ryan is still with them. He’s the man! Not cheap, but that’s who would be handling this for me in this situation.


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## chiasson.matthew (Oct 20, 2021)

SWLABR said:


> My “never fail” techs are at Folkway in Waterloo. They are more renowned for their acoustic knowledge, but they know electrics inside and out. I think Ryan is still with them. He’s the man! Not cheap, but that’s who would be handling this for me in this situation.


Thanks for the recommendation! I’ll add it to my list of contacts. This is quite clearly beyond my level of knowledge, so I’m quite happy to get an expert to take care of it.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Try blocking the trem to see if it's the source of your problem (for the bends)?


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

chiasson.matthew said:


> Thanks for the recommendation! I’ll add it to my list of contacts. This is quite clearly beyond my level of knowledge, so I’m quite happy to get an expert to take care of it.


A little story… I bought a Silverburst Epi Les Paul Custom (An 06, new) Loved it, but could use a tweak. As we all know, L&M has “free set up” within a year of purchase. Took it to the guys at the Bloor store. Got it back and HATED IT!!!!!!!!! Like, HATED IT!!!!! I told them as much. “That’s Gibson factory Spec”. I said, “well put it back”. That will cost $X.
Folkway were still in Guelph (I miss that store) and had just set up an acoustic for me. I called and Mark said they’d take a look. I called my Mum and asked her to get the kids off the bus cause I was going to be late. (Priorities man!) and drove straight the to store. That was 15yrs ago and that thing still plays like butter! They’ve worked on my Strat style, Bigsby’s hardtail.


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## chiasson.matthew (Oct 20, 2021)

SWLABR said:


> A little story… I bought a Silverburst Epi Les Paul Custom (An 06, new) Loved it, but could use a tweak. As we all know, L&M has “free set up” within a year of purchase. Took it to the guys at the Bloor store. Got it back and HATED IT!!!!!!!!! Like, HATED IT!!!!! I told them as much. “That’s Gibson factory Spec”. I said, “well put it back”. That will cost $X.
> Folkway we’re still in Guelph (I miss that store) and had just set up an acoustic for me. I called and Mark said they’d take a look. I called my Mum and asked her to get the kids off the bus cause I was going to be late. (Priorities man!) and drove straight the to store. That was 15yrs ago and that thing still plays like butter! They’ve worked on my Strat style, Bigsby’s hardtail.


Hopefully after this I will have a “guitar guy” that I can count on. I’ll let everyone know how the ordeal turns out. Have reached out to Steve from Guitar Niche in Brantford. Hoping to hear from him soon.


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

As mentioned above, block the trem and see if it happens. Just use a small block of wood. 

Lube all points of contact as well (nut, saddles and pivot screws on the trem).


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I had the tech at Folkway look at a guitar I had last year to get a quote on a repair. Short version is he told me not to do anything right now as a fix could end up being a band-aid. I'll probably see how they do with Big Blue since it's been a bit since someone's had eyes on it.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

SWLABR said:


> A little story… I bought a Silverburst Epi Les Paul Custom (An 06, new) Loved it, but could use a tweak. As we all know, L&M has “free set up” within a year of purchase. Took it to the guys at the Bloor store. Got it back and HATED IT!!!!!!!!! Like, HATED IT!!!!! I told them as much. “That’s Gibson factory Spec”. I said, “well put it back”. That will cost $X.
> Folkway we’re still in Guelph (I miss that store) and had just set up an acoustic for me. I called and Mark said they’d take a look. I called my Mum and asked her to get the kids off the bus cause I was going to be late. (Priorities man!) and drove straight the to store. That was 15yrs ago and that thing still plays like butter! They’ve worked on my Strat style, Bigsby’s hardtail.


I had a similar experience with a free L&M setup on my EVH Striped series. The guy set the bridge up to float. I said this was not how it was supposed to be, and told him I wanted it decked, like it was when I brought it in. He couldn't get it right despite making a legit effort (the guy was very professional with me the whole time). 

I set it up myself and got it right. EVH Gear sent me a pic of what they considered to be the ideal angle for the bridge, and I matched it.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

I will say the new Tech at L&M Cambridge (Ted) is knowledgeable. He’s done a couple things for me. And sometimes I just call to get his opinion. He’s a good dude. He’s talked me through a couple roadblocks.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Tuner bushings and screws are tight?


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## Larry (Sep 3, 2016)

Intonation ?


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

Video, answer #7 from Jeffery Young ,,do not help ?


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

gtrguy said:


> Tuner bushings and screws are tight?


+1 
2 "tech " work on the guitar, thy must do that.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

chiasson.matthew said:


> Thanks for the reply. It is a two screw tremolo, that is just barely floating. I had it slammed down just about flush with the body so there’s hardly any play when pulling on the whammy bar.
> 
> I appreciate the learning curve of playing a new style of guitar, but there is no way anyone could play the guitar in its current state and be satisfied. Needing to dump the tremolo after every two semi-tone bend is no way to live.
> 
> I have a string tree for the first and second strings, those aren’t the main culprits here though.


I own quite a few Strats, all floating. I’ve no issues with one string going flat. I don’t dive bomb the trem though. All this to say that what you’re experiencing isn’t normal.


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

Sorry this is happening on your first guitar man. Boo-urns.


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## chiasson.matthew (Oct 20, 2021)

cdntac said:


> As mentioned above, block the trem and see if it happens. Just use a small block of wood.
> 
> Lube all points of contact as well (nut, saddles and pivot screws on the trem).


Do you mean that I should slip a small piece of wood behind the block that comes down from the bridge such that it can’t move at all?


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

2 pieces of wood must be in the spring cavity not on the body


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)




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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

Good luck !


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

chiasson.matthew said:


> Do you mean that I should slip a small piece of wood behind the block that comes down from the bridge such that it can’t move at all?


Yes. You’ll have retune after doing it because your trem might be in a slightly different position due to the wood being up against it but this will allow you to then play it and do a test to see if your tuning changes.


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## chiasson.matthew (Oct 20, 2021)

Thunderboy1975 said:


> Sorry this is happening on your first guitar man. Boo-urns.


Not my first guitar, but my first strat. When it’s in tune I love it. Can’t wait to have it straightened out so I can just concentrate on playing rather than tinkering with the set up.


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## chiasson.matthew (Oct 20, 2021)

Update:

I shoved some shin stock behind my trem block to do a quick test.








The stability was much better as I delicately played with all that wood sticking out the back. I imagine if I have a properly cut piece of hardwood back there it would have been perfect.

So I guess the main suspect now is the floating bridge set up.

Here is a picture inside the back panel:









It looks to me like the plate holding the springs is not perfectly parallel to the back of the cavity, which would mean the tension is not equal across the whole tremolo system. Could this be contributing the the stability?


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## Verne (Dec 29, 2018)

Your left anchor screw is in deeper than the right, so it could be pulling slightly, but I doubt that'd be your overall issue. I doubt any Strat owner has their anchors perfectly aligned. I do know that if I have a string out of tune most often, it is ALWAYS the G string. That is a pesky little thing I've found on every one of my Strats. Even during setting intonation I find the G string is the most reluctant.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

chiasson.matthew said:


> Update:
> 
> I shoved some shin stock behind my trem block to do a quick test.
> View attachment 397911
> ...


OMG! Stop! 🥴  😁


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

zztomato said:


> OMG! Stop! 🥴  😁


I think that’s just a test fit. Err… at least I hope that’s not the final!


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## chiasson.matthew (Oct 20, 2021)

zztomato said:


> OMG! Stop! 🥴  😁


Did I do something wrong?!


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## chiasson.matthew (Oct 20, 2021)

SWLABR said:


> I think that’s just a test fit. Err… at least I hope that’s not the final!


Ha ha, this was just to try and isolate the problem to the tremolo set up. I just grabbed the quickest/easiest material available to run a quick test. At this point I don’t intend to block off the tremolo, that will be a last resort.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

chiasson.matthew said:


> Did I do something wrong?!


Never mind.


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## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

chiasson.matthew said:


> Update:
> 
> I shoved some shin stock behind my trem block to do a quick test.
> View attachment 397911
> ...


I’ve actually found strat trems more stable when the claw is angled.


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

chiasson.matthew said:


> Did I do something wrong?!


See answer # 40

The idea is to lock the tremolo block in its normal position. Not in an extreme as shown in your picture.
It also requires a piece of wood under the springs, it's not easy but if you want to do a good job it's the solution,
I also use Popsicle sticks that I insert between the springs without having to remove them.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Personally I wouldn't waste time blocking the trem to diagnose the problem. If the nut is hanging up when you use the trem ok, but the nut could STILL be the problem and blocking the trem will tell you what? That when you use the trem, SOMEthing is causing a hang up. It won't necessarily tell you that the bridge is the problem.

I would take it to one of the trusted set up gurus referenced in this thread.The bridge, nut and tuners are all engineered to work together as a system. If it's going out of tune a good set up man will isolate the problem and fix it easily.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

chiasson.matthew said:


> Update:
> 
> I shoved some shin stock behind my trem block to do a quick test.
> View attachment 397911
> ...


That doesn't matter or at least wouldn't cause a tuning issue. The trem claw doesn't need to be perfectly parallel, in fact players (and set up men) frequently angle it to suit their likes. Carl Verheyan is one example.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

I agree with @Milkman. Don't block the trem. At least not as a permanent solution. It's one thing to do that to determine if it is the trem system that's causing the issue, but, you bought a Strat to do Stratty things, which include using the trem. Taking that away seems like a waste. Keep sleuthing till you get it sorted, and it ALL works as it was designed.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

SWLABR said:


> I agree with @Milkman. Don't block the trem. At least not as a permanent solution. It's one thing to do that to determine if it is the trem system that's causing the issue, but, you bought a Strat to do Stratty things, which include using the trem. Taking that away seems like a waste. Keep sleuthing till you get it sorted, and it ALL works as it was designed.



I understand the approach of blocking (eliminating) the trem for diagnosis. The process of elimination makes sense in many situations. I just don't think it's the way to go in this case.

But, blocking a trem permanenty is bsically waving the white flag. If you have to do that, I suggest you buy a hard tail.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Personally I wouldn't waste time blocking the trem to diagnose the problem. If the nut is hanging up when you use the trem ok, but the nut could STILL be the problem and blocking the trem will tell you what? That when you use the trem, SOMEthing is causing a hang up. It won't necessarily tell you that the bridge is the problem.
> 
> I would take it to one of the trusted set up gurus referenced in this thread.The bridge, nut and tuners are all engineered to work together as a system. If it's going out of tune a good set up man will isolate the problem and fix it easily.


Once the trem is blocked you could perform behind the nut bends to see if it still gets hung up in the nut.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> But, blocking a trem permanently is basically waving the white flag. If you have to do that, I suggest you buy a hard tail.


I've had many, many strats and I've never had one that would stay tuned using the trem. I almost always blocked the trem. But then I've never kept any of the strats for one reason or another. One of these days I'm going to buy another strat and spend some time trying to get it to stay in tune with the trem.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> I've had many, many strats and I've never had one that would stay tuned using the trem. I almost always blocked the trem. But then I've never kept any of the strats for one reason or another. One of these days I'm going to buy another strat and spend some time trying to get it to stay in tune with the trem.


Well then, either you have bought consistantly shitty Strats, or you need a new set up man.

Strats will stay in tune as good as any fixed bridge with a decent set up. Upgrade to one of the many improved trem bridges and you can easily be in Floyd Rose territory.

Come and play one of mine and try to put it out of tune with normal playing.

Like I said, blocking the trem is waving a white flag. You might as well buy a hardtail.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Well then, either you have bought consistantly shitty Strats, or you need a new set up man.
> 
> Strats will stay in tune as good as any fixed bridge with a decent set up. Upgrade to one of the many improved trem bridges and you can easily be in Floyd Rose territory.
> 
> ...



I buy fairly expensive guitars. The most expensive strat I ever bought was a Wildwood 10 and it was set up by Wildwood guitars. Still didn't stay in tune. I guess I could have taken it to a good tech here but the trem isn't all that important to me and I find it doesn't take me much to wave the white flag. 
Back in the 80's I owned several good quality shredder guitars with Kahlers or Floyd Rose and never had problems with those. 
I'm thinking when I'm ready for a strat again I'll look for something custom with humbuckers in the bridge and a floyd rose.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> I buy fairly expensive guitars. The most expensive strat I ever bought was a Wildwood 10 and it was set up by Wildwood guitars. Still didn't stay in tune. I guess I could have taken it to a good tech here but the trem isn't all that important to me and I find it doesn't take me much to wave the white flag.
> Back in the 80's I owned several good quality shredder guitars with Kahlers or Floyd Rose and never had problems with those.
> I'm thinking when I'm ready for a strat again I'll look for something custom with humbuckers in the bridge and a floyd rose.



Well, I'm afraid I probably came off poorly in that last comment.

I know you buy high end stuff, so, please accept my apology.

But, even a Squire CV Strat can be made to play and stay in tune if set up properly.

I wouldn't own one that didn't.

Being out of tune,......well, nothing else matters much unless you're Jimi. He could play out of tune and it was so out of this world, you could forgive it.

I guess I'm just saying that being in tune is absolutely the priority for me. I go to great lengths to ensure that and I think I've pretty much got it figured out.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Trem claw at an angle, or more springs on one side, only puts different forces on the posts. The tension on the strings


guitarman2 said:


> I buy fairly expensive guitars. The most expensive strat I ever bought was a Wildwood 10 and it was set up by Wildwood guitars. Still didn't stay in tune. I guess I could have taken it to a good tech here but the trem isn't all that important to me and I find it doesn't take me much to wave the white flag.
> Back in the 80's I owned several good quality shredder guitars with Kahlers or Floyd Rose and never had problems with those.
> I'm thinking when I'm ready for a strat again I'll look for something custom with humbuckers in the bridge and a floyd rose.


Is that going out of tune with regular playing, bends etc.. or out of tune after using the trem? (err .. vibrato?)


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> Trem claw at an angle, or more springs on one side, only puts different forces on the posts. The tension on the strings
> 
> 
> Is that going out of tune with regular playing, bends etc.. or out of tune after using the trem? (err .. vibrato?)


Just the trem. If I blocked the trem they'd stay perfectly in tune.


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## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

Tuning issues are usually nut or machine head related. Very rarely is it ever bridge related, but decking the bridge will make it easier to identify the issue.

Assuming your nut is correct slotted, try this:


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

TheGASisReal said:


> Tuning issues are usually nut or machine head related. Very rarely is it ever bridge related, but decking the bridge will make it easier to identify the issue.
> 
> Assuming your nut is correct slotted, try this:



That is what I always do.
There is a rolling string T at peg head


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Roller string trees (retainers) are an improvement over the old bent steel (stamped) retainers. Another option which I prefer is to use Graphtech Tusq retainers (as well as a Tusq nut or LSR Roller nut).

If you use staggered tuners, you can eliminate retainers altogether which is better yet.

The Mandolin method (AKA Luthier's Lock) described in @TheGASisReal 's post is the way I have strung all my guitars and any I have worked on for decades now. With this method, locking tuners are needless and a waste of money. In fact the added weight some locking tuners have may even be counterproductive.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

chiasson.matthew said:


> Update:
> 
> I shoved some shin stock behind my trem block to do a quick test.
> View attachment 397911
> ...


Yes and the trem claw is screwed in a lot closer to the body than on any of my Strats. That's a lot of tension.


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## chiasson.matthew (Oct 20, 2021)

1SweetRide said:


> Yes and the trem claw is screwed in a lot closer to the body than on any of my Strats. That's a lot of tension.


So here's a question: On a perfectly set up Strat, if you were to dive bomb the tremolo and then release it without pulling the bridge back up at all, should it spring back to its neutral/in-tune position? Or should you have to give it a pull to get the tension back to maintain the tuning? Right now if I dive the tremolo down, or pull is at all, it will not return to its neutral position, I need to compensate with a push or pull in the opposite direction to get it back where it should be, and I don't have the feel for it yet where I can do that accurately on the fly.

The claw is screwed in so close to the body to deck the bridge to try and stabilize it a bit more than if it were floating up an 1/8" or so. I'm not married to its position, just trying out some different things that people have suggested.

Again, thanks to everyone for chipping in their $0.02. This has been very helpful and educational for me so far.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

chiasson.matthew said:


> So here's a question: On a perfectly set up Strat, if you were to dive bomb the tremolo and then release it without pulling the bridge back up at all, should it spring back to its neutral/in-tune position? Or should you have to give it a pull to get the tension back to maintain the tuning? Right now if I dive the tremolo down, or pull is at all, it will not return to its neutral position, I need to compensate with a push or pull in the opposite direction to get it back where it should be, and I don't have the feel for it yet where I can do that accurately on the fly.
> 
> The claw is screwed in so close to the body to deck the bridge to try and stabilize it a bit more than if it were floating up an 1/8" or so. I'm not married to its position, just trying out some different things that people have suggested.
> 
> Again, thanks to everyone for chipping in their $0.02. This has been very helpful and educational for me so far.


On a well set up strat trem and even with a Floyd Rose, you sometimes have to give the bar a little tug to get the G string right back in.

Basically you can dive bomb and the guitar should return to pitch very well, but yeah, it's not unusual to have to give the bar a little jerk to the the G right in.

The problem with decking the trem, even if it's only to the extent that you can still use it (as opposed to completely blocked), is that the vibrato is jerky sounding. If you can't pull up, you'll never get what I would call a smooth vibrato.

I believe EVH had his trems set up to dive only, so what can I say?

Any time I have decked a trem, it was with the understanding that I would only use the trem for effects at the end of a song when I was either going to change guitars or tune up again.


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## chiasson.matthew (Oct 20, 2021)

Milkman said:


> On a well set up strat trem and even with a Floyd Rose, you sometimes have to give the bar a little tug to get the G string right back in.
> 
> Basically you can dive bomb and the guitar should return to pitch very well, but yeah, it's not unusual to have to give the bar a little jerk to the the G right in.
> 
> ...


I am coming from a Les Paul to this strat, so I have never really incorporated vibrato via a trem system in my playing. My use case will probably be similar to what you described. We'll see how it goes.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

chiasson.matthew said:


> On a perfectly set up Strat, if you were to dive bomb the tremolo and then release it without pulling the bridge back up at all, should it spring back to its neutral/in-tune position? Or should you have to give it a pull to get the tension back to maintain the tuning?


See, this is part of the problem here. People have this expectation that the guitar should stay in tune even doing things like dive bombing the strings until they are slack and then letting it go. Then you think "oh no, it's a bit out of tune" and you perseverate about it for hours. This is not realistic. If you have to dive bomb all day, get a Floyd.
Pictured below is a "strat" that I play quite a bit. I can really give it a good workout with the arm and it stays in tune great. I'm used to playing it though- I don't even think about it. I do some heavy work with the bar and I end with a light little movement of the arm and it's still in tune. Maybe I do some other thing and then I give the strings a little flourish of finger vibrato or a bend here but it's all incorporated into the music. It's all stuff that you have to get used to when you play a guitar with a floating bridge.








A strat can't be played like a Les Paul. It's its own thing. Like learning a new instrument.
Once you have your guitar set up by someone who know what they are doing, the rest is up to you to figure out. Some people just do not get along with a vibrato bridge though. I have many of customers who just want me to deck the bridge because they can't stand the detuning on double stop bends and other floating bridge related issues. I often have people play one of my guitars to see if they might get used to it and it becomes plainly evident that there's no intuitive connection made with the varying pitch that happens with a floating bridge. They grab the bar and it's like someone else has suddenly taken control of their arm. Not everyone is good with a strat.


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## chiasson.matthew (Oct 20, 2021)

zztomato said:


> See, this is part of the problem here. People have this expectation that the guitar should stay in tune even doing things like dive bombing the strings until they are slack and then letting it go. Then you think "oh no, it's a bit out of tune" and you perseverate about it for hours. This is not realistic. If you have to dive bomb all day, get a Floyd.
> Pictured below is a "strat" that I play quite a bit. I can really give it a good workout with the arm and it stays in tune great. I'm used to playing it though- I don't even think about it. I do some heavy work with the bar and I end with a light little movement of the arm and it's still in tune. Maybe I do some other thing and then I give the strings a little flourish of finger vibrato or a bend here but it's all incorporated into the music. It's all stuff that you have to get used to when you play a guitar with a floating bridge.
> 
> A strat can't be played like a Les Paul. It's its own thing. Like learning a new instrument.
> Once you have your guitar set up by someone who know what they are doing, the rest is up to you to figure out. Some people just do not get along with a vibrato bridge though. I have many of customers who just want me to deck the bridge because they can't stand the detuning on double stop bends and other floating bridge related issues. I often have people play one of my guitars to see if they might get used to it and it becomes plainly evident that there's no intuitive connection made with the varying pitch that happens with a floating bridge. They grab the bar and it's like someone else has suddenly taken control of their arm. Not everyone is good with a strat.


Just to be clear, I don't dive bomb all day. In fact I don't really dive bomb at all. I think the next step in my quest is coming to terms with the guitar as it is, and see how it goes. I am determined to figure it out.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I rarely dive bomb but it’s nice to know I can once in awhile without going out of tune.

I do use the bar a fair bit however for vibrato and to try and make the notes more vocal-like.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

chiasson.matthew said:


> Just to be clear, I don't dive bomb all day. In fact I don't really dive bomb at all. I think the next step in my quest is coming to terms with the guitar as it is, and see how it goes. I am determined to figure it out.


Fair enough. I was just trying to make a point/ trying to help.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

chiasson.matthew said:


> So here's a question: On a perfectly set up Strat, if you were to dive bomb the tremolo and then release it without pulling the bridge back up at all, should it spring back to its neutral/in-tune position? Or should you have to give it a pull to get the tension back to maintain the tuning? Right now if I dive the tremolo down, or pull is at all, it will not return to its neutral position, I need to compensate with a push or pull in the opposite direction to get it back where it should be, and I don't have the feel for it yet where I can do that accurately on the fly.
> 
> The claw is screwed in so close to the body to deck the bridge to try and stabilize it a bit more than if it were floating up an 1/8" or so. I'm not married to its position, just trying out some different things that people have suggested.
> 
> Again, thanks to everyone for chipping in their $0.02. This has been very helpful and educational for me so far.


I never go that extreme on a Strat. I have Floyd Roses for that. My guess is that it would need some assistance after extreme movements in either direction depending on how tight the front screws on the bridge are and how sharp the bridge blades are.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

zztomato said:


>


What are those pups?
They look like goldfoil mudbuckers.


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## Verne (Dec 29, 2018)

TheGASisReal said:


> Tuning issues are usually nut or machine head related. Very rarely is it ever bridge related, but decking the bridge will make it easier to identify the issue.
> 
> Assuming your nut is correct slotted, try this:


I've been stringing my guitars this way for a while now. Works great, and is quick and easy once you do it a few times.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Verne said:


> I've been stringing my guitars this way for a while now. Works great, and is quick and easy once you do it a few times.


I was unaware there was any other way. It is how my old man taught me and well, I stopped learning right then and there.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

laristotle said:


> What are those pups?
> They look like goldfoil mudbuckers.


They are Ronin Foilbuckers. Awesome pickups.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Hey @chiasson.matthew did you ever get this sorted. I noticed on mine the other day it wasn't really staying in tune as well as I had thought, rose colored glasses and all. Then I realized that it wasn't really staying in tune at all... those pesky glasses. I fiddled around with the tension on the trem for a wee bit tightening it up substantially from where it was, but nowhere near decked, more of the 1/8th that fender recommends and a lot like @zztomato has in that image from what I can tell. 

The issue is most likely in that tension/counterbalance equation. Just fiddle with it until you get it right. The only difference in a tech and you is that they have fiddled with enough of them that they don't have to mess around as much to get the results they want, they are still just gonna turn a thing here and turn a thing there. 

I do hope you get it sorted, I know I was getting a little frustrated once I realized that I was having issues. Now I am satisfied knowing that I fixed them.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Brunz said:


> Hey @chiasson.matthew
> 
> The only difference in a tech and you is that they have fiddled with enough of them that they don't have to mess around as much to get the results they want, they are still just gonna turn a thing here and turn a thing there.


I think there's more to a good tech than merely trial and error. My tech uses carefully established dimensions and tolerences as well as specialized tools. Also, he's kind of masterful at making repairs and making them invisible.

I'm not saying the average player can't learn to do much of that, but you can fuck up a lot of guitars to get to the knowledge and skill level of a @zztomato or Steve Blundon.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Milkman said:


> I think there's more to a good tech than merely trial and error. My tech uses carefully established dimensions and tolerences as well as specialized tools. Also, he's kind of masterful at making repairs and making them invisible.
> 
> I'm not saying the average player can't learn to do much of that, but you can fuck up a lot of guitars to get to the knowledge and skill level of a @zztomato or Steve Blundon.


To be frank, that is exactly what I said  
There is a strong difference in a guitar set to spec and one that is set the way you like. Following the spec's on something is not a difficult task, it is where I start on all my setups. From there, there is a lot of trial and error to make something as close to your preference and the guitars tolerance as you can before the intersection of failure. Tremolo set up, intonation, action and neck relief are all things that a player should feel comfortable with however and should not be discouraged to attempt. There really is not a lot of harm that can be done as long as one isn't taking their power drill to the truss rod so see what happens.... 

As for repairs, well that is a whole other kettle of fish. One has to be rather adept and have a lot of skills before I would recommend just diving in and going to town.


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## BigStringer (12 mo ago)

chiasson.matthew said:


> I recently bought my first stratocaster - A new American Professional II, olympic white. I love playing it, I love you how is sounds, I love how it looks.
> 
> My problem is it just will not stay in tune.
> 
> ...


RE: Going out of tune issue (Strat)... Of course you could make the trem tighter or have your tuning machines checked. However, I noticed when I switched to a Dunlop Heavy Core "G" string it became much more stable tuning-wise. It should be noted that I do not downtune with that string (which those strings are often recommended for). I am referring to the Heavy Core set with 50 for the 6th. I find these strings less bright than for instance D'Addario, so that may be a "dealbreaker" for some... Good luck!


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