# Don't get stuck in Scales



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Anyone want to help me understand why it is that every video advertisement is some guy telling me to "break out of scales" and "who needs scales" my umpteen video course will BLOW YOU AWAY.

Well.. here is a funny thing about scales, they are the most important aspect in music, right?
I know them, they move around, I play them... I sound good. Saves a lot of guess work when 42% of the notes on the fretboard are wrong.

What am I missing, or are we just hopeful people are gullible. I mean, I understand everything is not exactly confined to a scale, but come on now.


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## Paul M (Mar 27, 2015)

In kindergarten we learn the alphabet, (scales), before we learn to spell words, (chords), and then learn to write simple sentences, (chord sequences). Over time our language skills improve, and we learn to write more complicated, more comprehensive sentences. 

It should be the same as we learn to be fully literate in music. The pentatonic scale has a very useful place, just like salt and pepper. But if it's the only scale under your fingertips, you are leaving a lot of spices in the drawer.

Edited to add...... I like jazz. In jazz there are no wrong notes, only better ones.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

So i am missing something here, are folks just playing straight scales? I suppose you don't know the answer to that question seeing as you did not produce the literature..
To me, it reads somehow scales pfft, who needs those. I'll teach you the way.

Well if I you don't know scales, how the hell are you supposed to know what notes go to what keys and where?

Maybe I need to buy this nonsense to see what they are on about.... maybe people are playing linear scales and that is not working???

I just don't understand what someone could be on about in regards to scales not being important. They are a fundamental part of music

I like your analogy though, that made me smile.

Perhaps I cannot get answers from folks that do not know either

Even chord progressions are based on scales, every bloody thing is based on scales. I III IV wouldn't make any sense without the scale behind it.

I am confused.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

I think some of those ads might be a bit gimmicky. Maybe they're aimed at people who either don't like learning scales (but end up doing so anyway) or are stuck in the rut of running scales (i.e. just reciting the alphabet).

Maybe these lessons end up being a re-packaged version of some very common teachings. That wouldn't surprise me either.

They might also be aimed at people who aren't necessarily looking to play with others, but just want to learn how to play a particular song. Since the pandemic, there's been a renewed interest in guitar.

Also, I recommend an ad-blocker.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Ok, that makes me feel better. I couldn't quite wrap my head around how the hell you play music without scales. 
I figure some caged method type thing, or some patterns that aren't linear scales.... I don't know.

All I know is that without scales I wouldn't know anything.

Charlatan selling snake oil, that makes sense to me.


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## Paul M (Mar 27, 2015)

To answer your question: Everybody is _playing_ scales. Not everybody is playing a "correct" scale for the chord of the moment. Depending on what music you are playing, there is a chance that there may be more than one "correct" scale. 

Scales are completely un-sexy to learn and practice. I can only think of two songs that have melodies that are essentially a scale. (Do-Re-Mi from The Sound of Music, or the descending major scale that opens Joy to the World.) But IMNSHO, scales are necessary and important to learn to be a complete musician. 

Before I come across totally dickish..... I know there are a lot of scales left for _me_ to learn. I rarely practice scales, or any of the scale patterns that are important to learn. That's why I typically sound like the self-taught hack that I am, and not like Joe Pass or Al DiMiola. By the same token, I can usually write clearly enough to be understood, but I'm not like F. Scott Fitzgerald, or Hunter S. Thompson. 

Musician heal thyself?


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

I think perhaps I am getting lost in translation somewhere between "scales" as a linear pattern and scales as in the notes that comprise a key. 

I don't practice a lot of scales, mostly because why.... unless there is metal shredding to be doing.

The Key of C Major let us say so I do not have to go hunting on the keyboard consists of

C D F G A B C

So in essence, that is the scale, or Major scale to stay on page. So lets keep it nice and simple and say we are playing a 

I, III, I, IV, I progression and wanted to run a solo over it.... and lets assume we are not playing Jazz or some Rush... most of the time you are running to the scale of C major or Am if you prefer as a reference. Even the modes are fundamentally built on the scales that correspond to the Major scale in the key with the notable exceptions of some augmented notes.

I just cannot wrap my head around how anyone comes to any of this without knowing scales.


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

think of scale knowledge as a type of dictionary thesaurus. You can take the simplest word and give it a name no one has heard of. Just like scales, and the knowledge to totally change the course of a style / feel / or mood of a song with just the touch of a finger.
I enjoy practicing scales daily, have been doing so for close to 40 years, it is my warm up routine before the song / improv practicing starts


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

You can also work on diatonic arpeggios. It's a nice way to develop more vocabulary with what you know. You can also practice different intervals, small motifs. Just different ways to make it more musical.

As an example:


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## mick.335 (Sep 23, 2020)

You can function as a guitarist without scales but you are functionally illiterate. I played for years in jam sessions and garage bands with no understanding of scales but I could figure out what notes sounded good in a particular song. The fact that I ended up playing a common scale pattern is not a coincidence.... I just didn't know what it was. The first time someone tried to explain that C and Am scales had the same notes it made no sense to me.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

It does not matter if you know what it is, you still knew them 

@mick.335 I suppose my next question would be, with being unaccustomed to what they formally were, how did you go about transposing the notes that sounded good into their respective keys in songs?? Honest question here too, just incase that internet thing goes and gets in the way.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

Brunz said:


> how did you go about transposing the notes that sounded good into their respective keys in songs??


On guitar? Easy as pie. Just shift the shapes up and down the fretboard. That's the beauty of the instrument. Transposing can be done without much effort or awareness.

Edit: or use a capo


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Grab n Go said:


> On guitar? Easy as pie. Just shift the shapes up and down the fretboard. That's the beauty of the instrument. Transposing can be done without much effort or awareness.


There is a chance I over think things 
but shapes represent scales..... this is a conundrum


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

are you struggling with something in particular?


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

I think that there is a segment of the beginning-self-taught-guitarist demographic that get hung up on playing scales without knowing how to use them or that they are not an end in themselves. Needless to say, many of these will get bogged down quickly as they find that they know the scales, but aren't actually making music. These ads will appeal to that demographic.

I would also quibble with your assertion that scales are the most important thing in music. I would argue that rhythm is the most important thing in music, but that's probably another thread.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

I am not knocking scales but I've been playing guitar for 30 years and the only scale I know is the concert scale I learned in high school band class. I was even the lead guitarist in bands. I just learned by trial and error and memorized patterns that work. Really on the guitar if you hit a bad note and go one fret up or one fret down it's a right note.

Out of curiosity this is me playing a solo. What scale(s) am I playing?


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https://soundcloud.com/guncho%2Fit-might-be-true-solo


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> are you struggling with something in particular?


I am not struggling at all.... I am just failing to understand what the hell these advertisements could possibly be alluding to that are not scales 
I love me some scales, arpeggios get me hard and well... that is more information than anyone needs to know lol


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

bw66 said:


> I think that there is a segment of the beginning-self-taught-guitarist demographic that get hung up on playing scales without knowing how to use them or that they are not an end in themselves. Needless to say, many of these will get bogged down quickly as they find that they know the scales, but aren't actually making music. These ads will appeal to that demographic.
> 
> I would also quibble with your assertion that scales are the most important thing in music. I would argue that rhythm is the most important thing in music, but that's probably another thread.


That makes sense!!

... also I would agree with you because without rythm, they are just notes 



Guncho said:


> Out of curiosity this is me playing a solo. What scale(s) am I playing?


I don't know because the link is broken. 

Just so we are all clear, I was curious if anyone knew what was being offered in the random ad's I am sure we have all seen, that is all.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Brunz said:


> I am not struggling at all.... I am just failing to understand what the hell these advertisements could possibly be alluding to that are not scales
> I love me some scales, arpeggios get me hard and well... that is more information than anyone needs to know lol


Definitely, keep it all to yourself and pray to baby Moses.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

I'll just say learn the scales and where to apply them. It'll come together. With 30 + years of practice.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

bw66 said:


> I would argue that rhythm is the most important thing in music, but that's probably another thread.


Would you please consider starting a thread about rhythm?
It would be a great topic to discuss and I'm sure many of us need suggestions to help us in this area...especially non-metronome based approaches.

I honestly don't remember seeing a thread dedicated to this topic in the past.

Thanks in advance.


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## mick.335 (Sep 23, 2020)

Brunz said:


> It does not matter if you know what it is, you still knew them
> 
> @mick.335 I suppose my next question would be, with being unaccustomed to what they formally were, how did you go about transposing the notes that sounded good into their respective keys in songs?? Honest question here too, just incase that internet thing goes and gets in the way.


Never transposed from key to key just learned the songs from the LP. We weren't playing "Giant Steps". If it turned into a jam, I just noodled around to see what notes fit. The patterns would become obvious over time..... I just didn't know what they were. At one point a friend said: "You should add this note to the minor Pentatonic". Figured it was time to figure out what the hell I was doing.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Playing the right note at the right time is important. Knowing scales is not…unless you need it to find the right note at the right time.

Something to remember, even if it’s not the right note, you’re rarely more than a tone or semi tone away. A little slide or bend and you’re there.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

"Lose weight while you sleep!"
"Read a book in 2 hours with these 3 easy tips!"
"Wrinkles gone overnight if you do this!"

The modern world is full of crap we have to just ignore...completely.

OK, maybe these scales ads are not that bad.. I'm guessing they're selling a lesson package that has patterns to learn, without telling you that those patterns are parts of a scale.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

I look at scales as a way to connect chord tones.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

greco said:


> Would you please consider starting a thread about rhythm?
> It would be a great topic to discuss and I'm sure many of us need suggestions to help us in this area...especially non-metronome based approaches.
> 
> I honestly don't remember seeing a thread dedicated to this topic in the past.
> ...


I never realized how important rhythm was until I started playing bass in my current band. I knew the chord tones and scales and how to connect them most of the time. Playing bass is teaching me the rhythm part of the equation. It is very much about feel. Sometimes you are ahead of the beat, sometimes behind, it is very much feel. It helps if you have a really good drummer


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Brunz said:


> That makes sense!!
> 
> ... also I would agree with you because without rythm, they are just notes
> 
> ...


Better now?


__
https://soundcloud.com/guncho%2Fit-might-be-true-solo


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Scales?!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

greco said:


> Would you please consider starting a thread about rhythm?
> It would be a great topic to discuss and I'm sure many of us need suggestions to help us in this area...especially non-metronome based approaches.
> 
> I honestly don't remember seeing a thread dedicated to this topic in the past.
> ...



I don't think there should be any "non metronome" approaches to music, especially rhythm.


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