# Edumacate on pedal switchers



## Analogman (Oct 3, 2012)

I've been considering getting a pedal switcher for awhile and while doing some research I'm left with some unanswered questions. The issue I'm trying to resolve is I have a few pedals in the amps effects loop that I would like to control in conjunction with my pedals in front of the amp (ie. turning on overdrive and delay with 1 click). Is there a switcher in the $500 range that's capable of doing this?


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

You are looking to use something I think they call 4CM, 4 cable method.

Think of it this way, your amplifier [from input to effects send] is another pedal to switch in and out.

Your guitar goes to the pedal switcher, through a few loops, then using another loop to your preamp, back to the pedal switcher, more loops and the output to the effects return of the amp.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

How many loops do you need? How many effects are you using?

This company gets a lot of hate. JOYO PXL-PRO or PXL-Live.


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## Analogman (Oct 3, 2012)

8 including a volume pedal in the FX loop with the delay. I'd need 4 loops in front and 4 loops to the amps FX loop. Would it look similar to this?





  








4 Cable Method




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Analogman


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Sep 27, 2017


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## Analogman (Oct 3, 2012)

I guess where I'm losing a loop I could combine my volume pedal and delay and get away with 8 loops.


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## Analogman (Oct 3, 2012)

I've been looking at the Carl Martin Octaswitch or maybe a Gigrig Quatermaster, leaning towards the Octaswitch though.....simple and looks to be more functional?


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Boss and Voodoo Labs also make complex switchers


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

I really like thegigrig stuff having owned a Midi Pro 8, QMX 8 and currently own a QMX 6 - quiet, internal buffer that "pushes" the signal that works very well and sounds great. It adds a slight amount of compression and tightens up the sound and for me, makes everything sound better.

I haven't tried the Carl Martin unit. Btw, the QMX is super easy to use and the new flip/flop option is a nice feature.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

If the pedals use electronic switching, you could always do this. The advantage is that none of the required cables is carrying audio, and only one thin-gauge cable is needed for switching.:


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

mhammer said:


> If the pedals use electronic switching, you could always do this. The advantage is that none of the required cables is carrying audio, and only one thin-gauge cable is needed for switching.:


This is far from the simple solution a looper provides with its plug and play ease.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Yes and no. Combining pedals in an amp's loop with those in front of the amp can be tricky and cumbersome. If the amp includes remote loop-switching, it's less of a problem, but my experience is that most amps with an FX loop really only provide a pair of normalized jacks, a buffer, and maybe an attenuator pad on the receive, without any capacity to remotely engage or bypass the loop.

What I describe in the video does not require running any sort of audio cables to and from whatever is in the amp FX loop. Assuming the FX are amenable to remote switching, one simply leaves them where they are (presumably seated atop the head, with short connector cables for send and return), and runs any old 2-conductor cable from the effect out to a momentary switch, stage-front.

I made a remote switching unit a few weeks ago that I hope to put up a Youtube of in a week or two, demonstrating the principle. I took an old Marshall SS amp footswitch enclosure, and drilled some extra holes for two additional momentary switches, and the mini phonejacks in the back. It lets me select individual pedals, but the positioning of the switches also lets me hit several switches at once if I want. You'll see in a few weeks.

Again, I'm not saying it is better, and in some instances it won't even work. But for some contexts it can provide tremendous convenience, and avoid the nuisance of having multiple shielded cables running everywhere. What it _won't_ do, that considerably more expensive pedal-switcher systems can do, is save presets, and reverse order. All it can do is turn individual pedals on and off. But for some folks and some applications, having all the on-off switching in one central convenient spot is really all they want or need.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I think the biggest thing is having to modify the pedal, who wants to pull something apart, figure it out and solder stuff instead of just putting it in the existing loop. If this was a viable solution it would have caught on long ago.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

That it wasn't implemented years ago is no demonstration of anything. Some pedals actually DO have remote switching built in. For example, this one (which I know because I have one) besides, there are some things implemented decades back that deserved changing but were never implemented because of the sheer dead weight of historical precedent. Consider the tone cap values on Gibson's dual volt/tone guitars Using the same tone-cap value for neck AND bridge makes no sense whatsoever, but they stuck with it all these years.

If it is unfeasible, that's one thing. But if it is feasible, and the manufacturer hems and haws because they don't want to have to change the way they do things, that's quite another.








I modified about a half-dozen pedals of my own to adapt to this switching approach. Nuthin' to it. Cheap and painless. I may offer it as a mod-service once I retire. Actually, I may start offering a bunch of mods once I retire. (Although I don't want to be too busy and I don't want to have to mail anything.)


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Well then I'll just say it isn't feasible.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mhammer said:


> Actually, I may start offering a bunch of mods once I retire. (Although I don't want to be too busy and I don't want to have to mail anything.)


You will be busy...absolutely no doubt about that.
Will you be considering FEDEX, UPS, etc rather than Canada Post?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Nah, I'll just do stuff for local clients. Once you factor shipping into things, it starts to get pricey, and people start to wonder if it's worth it. I'd rather be a bit of a "pedal evangelist", charge a modest hourly rate, and get cheap mods out to as many folks as possible. Of course, if I get an e-mail from Guthrie Govan or Joe Satriani or the guys from _That Pedal Show_, that says "Hey I was wondering if...", I might make the odd exception. 

Besides, *I* have a pension. There's plenty of other folks who will rely on such jobs as their primary revenue stream. I have no interest in stealing work from them.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

I'm kinda in love with the idea of the Boss ES-8, although it's too expensive as a toy and I just wont put transistors in my signal path that I can't switch out. And not that I would ever need one.

If you could find a used one!

Two four loop pedals would likely be less expensive and as easy to setup.

Carl Martin has a 10 loop version.

I'm liking the function of those Joyo ones. Stuff from that company is usually a copy of something else.


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## Analogman (Oct 3, 2012)

Hammerhands said:


> I'm kinda in love with the idea of the Boss ES-8, although it's too expensive as a toy and I just wont put transistors in my signal path that I can't switch out. And not that I would ever need one.
> 
> If you could find a used one!
> 
> ...


I've been watching some videos of the Joyo PLX Pro, probably the one I'll go with? There doesn't seem to be any other switchers with all those features unless I spent $1000+


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

There's that Loopmaster company and I think there's a similar Canadian company.

I like simple, just do one thing well. You can usually figure everything else out.

But I also like solutions, I love that ES-8.

I like cheap. I've never bought Joyo.

Tough decision. There's a Voodoo Lab Switcher for $199 in Halifax, but it's only 4 channels. There was a Hex switcher for about the same somewhere else.

You need to imagine yourself using it, or check Kijiji!

There's an Octaswitch, but you would have talk the guy down from $500.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

I had one of these that worked very well. there are newer versions out now for not a lot of money used if you can find one.

MOEN GEC9 Looper System a MUST if you like Stomp Pedals Ships Free


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## Analogman (Oct 3, 2012)

That looks to be better quality than the Joyo? However the downside is it appears you have to steal a loop to be able to switch amp channels which will leave me short. I like that the Joyo Pro has 4 trigger so I can run my channel switcher to it and I think my El Capistan and Dry Bell Vibe Machine to it for a second delay time and Vibe speed?


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

Hammerhands said:


> I'm kinda in love with the idea of the Boss ES-8, although it's too expensive as a toy and I just wont put transistors in my signal path that I can't switch out.


The ES-5 is cheaper and does almost everything the ES-8 does. If you can come across a used one, they are usually less than $500. If you use one of the loops to go to your amp, then you can definitely use the 4-cable method.

As far as I know, the ES-5 and ES-8 are true bypass or buffered bypass, so you aren't adding transistors in your signal path. On the other hand, the similar-looking MS-3 converts everything to digital.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

One Control Crocodile Tail Loop.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

No mention of Road Rage Pro Gear yet? Based in the GTA to boot.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2017)

I would want to be able to:

1: Store patches of different combinations of pedals and recall these presets.

2: Easily add or subtract pedals from a patch on the fly, plus play just the pedals using the switches on the board to turn them on/off.

3: Switch pedal order. ie Compressor before the OD or after the OD.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2017)

Player99 said:


> I would want to be able to:
> 
> 1: Store patches of different combinations of pedals and recall these presets.
> 
> ...


I'm still trying to figure it out, but, this is basically what I should be able to do with my Digitech RP1000.


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## Guest (Sep 30, 2017)

Mastermind PBC Programmable True Bypass Loop Switcher – RJM Music


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Analogman said:


> I've been considering getting a pedal switcher for awhile and while doing some research I'm left with some unanswered questions. The issue I'm trying to resolve is I have a few pedals in the amps effects loop that I would like to control in conjunction with my pedals in front of the amp (ie. turning on overdrive and delay with 1 click). Is there a switcher in the $500 range that's capable of doing this?


When I saw the title, I said, "that member has to be from New Brunswick.


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## Analogman (Oct 3, 2012)

Ha! Yup.....Fredericton


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

I think I'll likely pick up something like this in the near future. The flip flop feature will allow me to do what I want with my OD's and I don't see my board getting any more complicated than it is now. A QM 6 would likely be big enough for me.

The GigRig | Guitar Effects Switching and Modular Power Solutions


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

I'm jonesing for something similar. Didn't know the ms3 is all digital though.. even before the output to the amp or just the effects? That may be a deal breaker for me..

Sent from my SGH-M919V using Tapatalk


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

Player99 said:


> Mastermind PBC Programmable True Bypass Loop Switcher – RJM Music


But the size, and cost... A grand... May as well mount everything in drawers and go with midi switching. 

Sent from my SGH-M919V using Tapatalk


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

troyhead said:


> As far as I know, the ES-5 and ES-8 are true bypass or buffered bypass, so you aren't adding transistors in your signal path. On the other hand, the similar-looking MS-3 converts everything to digital.


Buffered means transistors (or more likely ICs; chips). Also if it takes power chances are it's buffering signal. Could just be for the display and relay control (digitally controlled switching; no effect on tone if done right).

Anyway, dayum. I should get into this game; it just never occurred to me cuz I have no desire to use these personally. Pretty easy, and could be made to custom specs as regards how many loops and integrated amp channel switches etc.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

troyhead said:


> As far as I know, the ES-5 and ES-8 are true bypass or buffered bypass, so you aren't adding transistors in your signal path. On the other hand, the similar-looking MS-3 converts everything to digital.


To me, there's a big difference between a buffered signal and a digitized signal. 

Buffering is still analog all the way through. It can be with IC's or discrete transistors, or with tubes. And it really isn't about voltage gain (they should be unity gain), it is about impedance change. They are taking a high Z input and converting that to a low Z output that will drive longer cables without any of the inherent problems that is associated with. But the signal remains analog without any artifacts associated with digital.

Digitizing is a much more complex process of tearing your waveform down (sampling, quantizing and feeding it into a codec), converting that to numbers and then back the other way. Of course, these new pedals require that digital payload to manipulate - that's what the effects are - a manipulation of the coding before being passed back through the DAC. 

I'm sure most, if not all, digital pedals allow an analog pass-through (true bypass) mode. When no effects are selected a relay will pass the input to the output without buffering or the ADC/DAC process. But you lose verb/delay trails and little issues like that when in TB mode. 

I'd be surprised if the MS-3 didn't have the option of buffered or TB. Both of my cheaper L6 digital pedals had this, and they're a 15 year old design.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Also if it takes power chances are it's buffering signal


The ES-5 and ES-8 pedals can switch the buffer off and on, just like some other pedals these days that offer true bypass and buffered options in the same pedal.



High/Deaf said:


> To me, there's a big difference between a buffered signal and a digitized signal.


Agreed. Again, the ES-5 & ES-8 have all-analog signal paths, which can be buffered or true bypass. The MS-3, on the other hand, digitizes everything so there are D/A converters at the beginning and end of the signal chain.


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## sorbz62 (Nov 15, 2011)

I have a Boss ES-8 which allows for everything you want - pre/post pedals, changing FX order, switchable buffers, Instant Access (switching fx on/off on the fly), keeping your signal analogue.

I love mine which also switches my amps and midi effects by midi. It is awesome and there is now a computer editor to do your patches.

I had a Gigrig QM6 which was great but very simple, just 6 loops and no patches. It is not what you're after.


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