# The aliens are coming?!?!?



## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Here is a real dandy. How many people here think that we share our galaxy/universe, other dimension, or whatever, with other 'advanced' life forms? 

I am not really into that stuff but there sure is a lot more reports in the main stream media these days. the Vatican's astronomer (yes they have a very sophisticated astronomy program and one of the most expensive telescopes at there facility in Arizona) has even gone public with statements about aliens and whether or not they have 'original sin' and if he would baptize them, seriously! 

then there are stories like these making the news:

Another UFO Shuts Down Another Airport in China

and even a retired Norad officer writing a book about it claiming they might even make their appearance on Oct 13 2010, so that would be: alien arrival, wednesday of this week.

Retired NORAD Officer's New Book Predicts a Tentative Worldwide UFO Display on October 13, 2010 - Yahoo! News

I think he claims they are going to intervene to save us from exterminating ourselves with too much CO2 emmissions... I guess the aliens haven't heard that the Global Warming thing is a scam (ducks and runs to hide). 

If there is some sort of official disclosure, or arrival event, all I know is that I would not believe what the government and main stream media are telling me about it... 

I like a quote that David H posted on another thread that went something like: "the proof that there is intelligent life out there is that they haven't tried to make contact" that pretty much sums it up for me. 

what do you folks think?


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

SO, if there are only two choices A: intelligent alien life that is sufficiently technologically advanced to travel interstellar distances (somehow circumventing relativity effects) and come here to make their presence known whilst solving our problems, or B: no intelligent life, I'm gonna go with B.

If there is or ever was an intelligent race advanced enough to explore the universe,they would have done it with self-replicating machines, and we would have seen evidence for this by now, given the age of the universe.

Faster than light travel would render any trip back home a virtual impossibility because your entire civilization would have time to radically change during the centuries (or more) that a short trip to the next star would take in the traveler's personal time.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

you can't get here from there, without folding space. you can't fold space, without the spice. 










in all seriousness though, i don't think it's a coincidence that aliens never shut down LAX, O'hare, BWI, YYZ, heathrow, or anywhere like that. it's always some crazy place no one ever really believes what they say anyhow.
when i see little green men shopping at scarborough town ctr or crappy tire, i'll believe. until then, the only aliens i know about are these:


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

I too will wait and see before I decide, but then, are you sure you can believe what you see?


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Only man would be so arrogant as to believe he is the only intelligent life form in the Univers. Because we don't know how to do interstellar travel yet, does'nt mean someone else has'nt figuered it out. Traveling faster then light is a bitch..yes..but it's not the solution really. Even NASA scientist have been looking at this problem for decades now.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

al3d said:


> Only man would be so arrogant as to believe he is the only intelligent life form in the Univers.


I'm not discounting the possibility of other intelligent life outside our solar system, I'm just saying that even if they did exist,and _even if_ they had the technology, they would never get here because of relativistic effects. It's a logical impossibility.

Carl Sagan believed that there was a very good chance that life had developed on other worlds, which makes some sense given the size and age of the universe. Even if he was right, I don't believe it even possible that we will EVER communcate with alien life.

Believing in aliens who will "come down" to "save us" is like primitive man believing in their anthropomorphic gods doing the same.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

There's hardly intelligent life here.... not hard to beat it...... just sayin'


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

mrmatt1972 said:


> I'm not discounting the possibility of other intelligent life outside our solar system, I'm just saying that even if they did exist,and _even if_ they had the technology, they would never get here because of relativistic effects. It's a logical impossibility.
> 
> Carl Sagan believed that there was a very good chance that life had developed on other worlds, which makes some sense given the size and age of the universe. Even if he was right, I don't believe it even possible that we will EVER communcate with alien life.


yes but your belief, or logical conclusion, is based on an assumption that excludes the possibility that there are realities, and 'laws' of the way things work that we are not aware of and/or don't fully understand. Even Sagan and Einstein allowed for that, and there are physicists today that are questioning these same assumptions about the laws of the physics and what is 'possible'.


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## dodgechargerfan (Mar 22, 2006)

Consider a species that comes into existence, lives, and dies before we have any opportunity to detect their existence. 

We can only measure what we think we know how to measure and detect. There HAS to be something outside what we know. It's always been that way. 

We need to expect something other than a humanoid life form arriving on a space ship. 

I'm not stating a belief in aliens here. I'm thinking more about how much we really don't know about everything because we can only know about that of which we are aware. 

You may have just inhaled a entire civilization with your last breath. 

Crazy. Probably, but prove it didn't happen. If you can't detect it you cant prove it doesn't exist just as much as you can't prove it does. 
Again, I'm not putting on a tinfoil hat, I'm just trying to point out a different way to think about things.

Edit: and I've only had a couple glasses of wine.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Aliens have arrived and they have been seen in Toronto !!!


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

"Consider a species that comes into existence, lives, and dies before we have any opportunity to detect their existence."

Definitely one of the many issues that surround the (un)likelyhood of an alien visit. My original post was partially based on this idea. In an infinitely large Universe that is about 13.75 billion years old, the odds of co-exiting at the same time with an otherworldly, superintelligent, and technologically marvelous race who is inclined to visit and save us from ourselves is pretty damn slim.

Occam's razor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is probably correct. 

I know that we, as a species, don't know squat about the universe, but we know enough to know what is not possible. Inventing the idea of transdimensional beings, or presupposing that there must be some unknown (to us) way of getting around relativity, to satisfy the _idea _that there "could be" a race (or why not a couple dozen) of intelligent beings who want to come for a Thanksgiving visit is pretty silly.

We see no credible evidence to support the hypothesis that alien visitors exist, why manufacture it?

As for this snippet of wisdom: "Crazy. Probably, but prove it didn't happen." The burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The possibility that something exists does not make it exist for certain.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

"...we know enough to know what is not possible." Really? People have been saying that for hundreds of years only to be proven wrong at every turn.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

The earth is flat, there is no world outside Europe, the moon is made of cheese. Of course now that technology is starting to come about to allow us to travel extreme distances not thought possible even just 3 years ago, we may just find out sooner than anybody thought possible. Of course there are those who would prefer to invest in the political bureaucracy than to fund such projects.............


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## Guest (Oct 10, 2010)

cheezyridr said:


> you can't get here from there, without folding space. you can't fold space, without the spice.


Unless you're the 'Kwisatz Haderach'.









Call me a skeptic. What if they do come? Not to help, but, exploit.
We (mankind) have explored this planet (and recently, space) for
a few thousand years searching for new sources of food,land,minerals
.. etc. So, something from out there could be coming here for the 
same reason(?).

or .. scouting the area to build a hyperspace bypass?


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## dodgechargerfan (Mar 22, 2006)

mrmatt1972 said:


> As for this snippet of wisdom: "Crazy. Probably, but prove it didn't happen." The burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The possibility that something exists does not make it exist for certain.


 The point wasn't to say, "Prove it." it was more to point out that we can not possibly know how to measure and detect anything and everything. We only know what we know. 
Our awareness of even our immediate surroundings only goes as far as we are able to identify what we can detect and measure.

If anyone thinks that we are done figuring out every last detail, I wouldn't hesitate to call them short sighted.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

dodgechargerfan said:


> The point wasn't to say, "Prove it." it was more to point out that we can not possibly know how to measure and detect anything and everything. We only know what we know.
> Our awareness of even our immediate surroundings only goes as far as we are able to identify what we can detect and measure.
> 
> If anyone thinks that we are done figuring out every last detail, I wouldn't hesitate to call them short sighted.


You're shifting the goalposts here. The thread was asking if aliens were coming to visit or not. Any scientifically minded person will freely admit that we have barely scratched the surface of what it is that we CAN know. There are also many precluded posibilities simply because this world is where our brains evolved - we percieve things in ways suited to our own world.

But, to get back to the original question, I still maintain that an alien visit is impossible. I refuse to accept the idea that just because we're not sure of the existance of some imagined thing, we need to act as if that imagined thing exists. Logic dictates the opposite stance. 

Your idea that, becasue we can claim some level of ignorance, we need to act as if NOTHING we know is certain is absurd. Relativity is a robust mathematical theory that has stood the test of time. I.e., in our universe NOTHING can move faster than light (except perhaps sub atomic particles). Since Faster Than Light travel would be required to be an interstellar (or, more likely, intergalactic) traveller, the possibility of alien visitation is impossible.


Here's a Wiki about FTL, but remember to notice this bit:

"This article needs additional citations for verification."

Faster-than-light - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

mrmatt1972, your ideas about Space travel are kinda old man... the idea that Lightspeed travel is impossible due to relativity have been debunked for a while now. I don't recall the exact figure, but while watching Discovery Channel on this exact subject, a group of Astronomers from Nasa was saying that M-Class planets, yes they use the Star Trek Designation now..LOL, they were saying that just in our galaxy, we could have up to 10 000 M-Class planets, and that's a low estimate on their account. now for us to be the ONLY sentient been in that amout of planets, was just ridiculous basicaly. Would they have the means to do interstellar travel?...why not!, because we can't figure it out, does'nt mean someone can't. 

100 years ago, we were barely FLYING, let alone going into space. Breaking the Sound barrier was just fiction 60 years ago. Home Computers were just seen in Sci Fi basically 25 years ago. So you see, in less 100 years Technology just exploded. Imagine a race of folks just a few hundred years ahead of us...what they could have accomplished technologically. Space Travel with Space folding technology has been studied for a LONG time now, and while they are far from acheiving it, they know it's quite possible. Nasa is actually using terms like SubSpace, Warp Speed now to describe new ways of traveling faster then light. Witch is making the Trekkies QUITE happy i might add..LOL


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

al3d said:


> mrmatt1972, your ideas about Space travel are kinda old man... the idea that Lightspeed travel is impossible due to relativity have been debunked for a while now.


Umm, no.



al3d said:


> I don't recall the exact figure, but while watching Discovery Channel on this exact subject, a group of Astronomers from Nasa was saying that M-Class planets, yes they use the Star Trek Designation now..LOL, they were saying that just in our galaxy, we could have up to 10 000 M-Class planets, and that's a low estimate on their account. now for us to be the ONLY sentient been in that amout of planets, was just ridiculous basicaly.


If you read what I wrote earlier, you'll see that I did not discount the possibility that life may have evolved on other worlds. I just say that it is absurd to think that a) they exist during the same time as we do b) they are so technologically advanced that they can circumvent the fabric of the universe c) they're coming HERE!! d) they can communicate with us and we with them e) they're going to save us from CO2 pollution.



al3d said:


> Would they have the means to do interstellar travel?...why not!, because we can't figure it out, does'nt mean someone can't.
> 
> 100 years ago, we were barely FLYING, let alone going into space. Breaking the Sound barrier was just fiction 60 years ago. Home Computers were just seen in Sci Fi basically 25 years ago. So you see, in less 100 years Technology just exploded. Imagine a race of folks just a few hundred years ahead of us...what they could have accomplished technologically. Space Travel with Space folding technology has been studied for a LONG time now, and while they are far from acheiving it, they know it's quite possible. Nasa is actually using terms like SubSpace, Warp Speed now to describe new ways of traveling faster then light. Witch is making the Trekkies QUITE happy i might add..LOL


 Sure technology will continue to advance, but there are physical limitations in the universe.

I'd love to see a link to NASA that has anything to say about these ideas. You're confusing science fiction with reality, and frankly, making shit up.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Actually when you travel vast distances, you dont use light speed, or faster than light speed. Although there are advances in ion thrusters that could propel you to those speeds, there are too many problems associated with traveling that fast..........

Sci Fi Science: Traveling at Warp Speed : Video : Science Channel


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

mrmatt1972 said:


> I'd love to see a link to NASA that has anything to say about these ideas. You're confusing science fiction with reality, and frankly, making shit up.


Ask and ye shall receive...........
Breakthrough Propulsion Physics


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Accept2 said:


> Ask and ye shall receive...........
> Breakthrough Propulsion Physics


Thanks. Now read and you shall understand...

"Since existing technology is inadequate for traversing astronomical distances between neighboring stars (even if advanced to the limit of its underlying physics), the only way to circumvent these limits is to discover new propulsion physics."

"Objectively, the desired breakthroughs might turn out to be impossible..."

"All NASA support to sustain cognizance on these possibilities has been withdrawn as of October 1, 2008. "

"*Status of Research*

No breakthroughs appear imminent..."

"Cautionary note: On a topic this visionary and whose implications are profound, there is a risk of encountering, premature conclusions in the literature, driven by overzealous enthusiasts as well as pedantic pessimists."

NASA - So, can we do it?

Math doesn't lie folks.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

.........And its a good bet that aliens would be much stoopider than us. But thats a good thing, as I believe we would just lynch their sorry asses if they ever tried coming to our superior planet. We are ever so smart.........


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

I guess i'm just not close minded to the idea ..


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## geezer (Apr 30, 2008)

I believe 100% that we have been visited by objects that are not man made.Numerous military personnel and other very credible people have come forward with accounts of sightings .Some of these sightings have been tracked on radar.I have personally seen 3 ufo's...all at different times and all moving unlike anything possible with our current technology .Many ufo's could be experimental military craft or drones, but to dismiss the countless sightings made worldwide is close minded.I think that it's quite possible aliens have been coming here for 1000's of years and for all we know have bases in deep ocean trenches.We don't even know everything about our own planet(new species of life are discovered even now)how could be possibly know what a lifeform 1000's of years more advanced than us is capable of.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

geezer said:


> I believe 100% that we have been visited by objects that are not man made.Numerous military personnel and other very credible people have come forward with accounts of sightings .Some of these sightings have been tracked on radar.I have personally seen 3 ufo's...all at different times and all moving unlike anything possible with our current technology .Many ufo's could be experimental military craft or drones, but to dismiss the countless sightings made worldwide is close minded.I think that it's quite possible aliens have been coming here for 1000's of years and for all we know have bases in deep ocean trenches.We don't even know everything about our own planet(new species of life are discovered even now)how could be possibly know what a lifeform 1000's of years more advanced than us is capable of.


UFO = Unidentified Flying Object. Not Alien Spacecraft. With all due respet, the only thing you need to join the military is good physical health and the ability to follow orders (exceptions exist, I know) and there are _*few *_"very credible people" who have claimed to have seen *aliens*. Sure people see things in the sky that they can't explain, but IMHO they are earthly things. Earthly explanations are just more plausible that alien ones.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

I agree...and not to mention all the weird stuff on earth already that can't realy be explained and date 3000 BC basicaly. it's one thing to be sceptical...but at one point you got to say..ok, that's weird and does'nt make sens. Things built 5000 years ago for exemple that man today can not even EXPLAIN how it could have been made.



geezer said:


> I believe 100% that we have been visited by objects that are not man made.Numerous military personnel and other very credible people have come forward with accounts of sightings .Some of these sightings have been tracked on radar.I have personally seen 3 ufo's...all at different times and all moving unlike anything possible with our current technology .Many ufo's could be experimental military craft or drones, but to dismiss the countless sightings made worldwide is close minded.I think that it's quite possible aliens have been coming here for 1000's of years and for all we know have bases in deep ocean trenches.We don't even know everything about our own planet(new species of life are discovered even now)how could be possibly know what a lifeform 1000's of years more advanced than us is capable of.


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## geezer (Apr 30, 2008)

Fair enough.. while I'm enjoying a nice cup of space cocoa in 2012 (when they come out in the open)with my new alien friends you'll be jumping out of a highrise window because you can't handle the truth.ha ha


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## geezer (Apr 30, 2008)

mrmatt...Within the last few weeks a group of retired high ranking military officers held a news conference where detailed accounts of their experiences were documented...these were not people without a background in current military tech.Several astronauts have also reported seeing strange objects (of course what the hell do they know)In Mexico recently a farmer caught a creature in a trap that has been analyzed by scientists that could not identify it as a known species.In the 70's a man saw an object fall from a ufo ...he recovered the object and it has also been analyzed and found to be not from earth(it gives off energy that cannot be explained.)This could be BS but I don't bury my head in the sand and believe everything the US Government says is true...Many countries are making their information public on what up to now has been classified.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I think the UFO stories are funny, and the army dudes seem to me looking to sell their books, but the fact remains that research continues, and technology expands, so to rule out warp drive would be insane, especially considering the fact that some of the most prominent physicists believe it is coming to a Wal-Mart near you.............


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

I am skeptical about information coming from both governments and 'Alien advocates'. However, I KNOW that there are lots more things we are discovering every day...and I try to keep an open mind about science and everything else. I have seen what I think was a 'ghost', but I'm not sure if that was a manifestation in my mind or some actual apparition. I have also seen two UFOs which defy explanation, but I'm not ready to claim that they were alien spacecraft. Von Daniken and the rest have interesting hypothesis'...but they ain't facts (yet).


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

al3d said:


> mrmatt1972, your ideas about Space travel are kinda old man... the idea that Lightspeed travel is impossible due to relativity have been debunked for a while now. I don't recall the exact figure, but while watching Discovery Channel on this exact subject, a group of Astronomers from Nasa was saying that M-Class planets, yes they use the Star Trek Designation now..LOL, they were saying that just in our galaxy, we could have up to 10 000 M-Class planets, and that's a low estimate on their account. now for us to be the ONLY sentient been in that amout of planets, was just ridiculous basicaly. Would they have the means to do interstellar travel?...why not!, because we can't figure it out, does'nt mean someone can't.


don't take this personal but,

that's a popular line of thinking, and it's totally flawed. first of all, 10,000 is a really tiny number when you consider all the factors that were neccessary for life (of any kind) to occur right here on the big blue marble. then, when you add in all of the other things that had to occur, (in the proper order, no less) for that life to evolve as far as it has, the number 10,000 becomes microscopic. then add in all the things that had to AVOID happening, in order for our fragile selves to be here in our current state, and the number 10,000 becomes as big as a quark or some other particle. now, when i mention these events and such, most people include the proper number of planets, and the proper mass and speed and all that obvious stuff. but it's sooo much more. it's the blind chance that has allowed the important people in our history to achieve what they have. 
really - stop and consider all the inumerable things that had to happen exactly as they did, just for the world as you know it, to *be.* imagine putting that number up against what we believe to be 
"M class planets" within what is reasonable distance to us. then add in the effect of random chance. if one does think about it honestly, and does the research to consider things fully, the whole perspective changes. it becomes highly improbable that there is life of any kind within reasonable distance, and darn near impossible that it has evolved to the state of being that would allow it to manipulate time/matter/energy to the level neccessary for them to pay us a visit. 
on top of that, they get all the way here, after all that effort, and allow a handful of bureaucrats
to stop them from making themselves fully known to the general population? nobody comes all this way just to have a look and go home. they're here to say hello, or to take over, if they come. 
they're not going to turn around and go home because harper, obama, and cameron said so.
that's my opinion, fully worth what i charged for it. hahahaha


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)




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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Hey Cheezyridr: Resistance is futile! You will be assimilated!


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

al3d said:


>


And that's it. People who want to believe will do so regardless of what their senses or logic dictates.

BTW, this is one of my favorite nonsense arguments: "Things built 5000 years ago for exemple (sic) that man today can not even EXPLAIN how it could have been made." with the implied assumption that since we don't know how it was done, it must have been done by aliens, right?

I can't explain how o build a microchip or an analogue clock were built either, neither can most people. In 5000 years people will find examples of both and wonder how it was done. Will they assume alien intervention?


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I wonder what some of you would think about the theory that we evolved from a microscopic alien. I imagine you would claim blasphemy, and an insult to the perfection of man. How insulting.........


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Accept2 said:


> I wonder what some of you would think about the theory that we evolved from a microscopic alien. I imagine you would claim blasphemy, and an insult to the perfection of man. How insulting.........


Not blasphemy - that's a religious term. Untestable nonsense maybe. Man is far from perfect.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

mrmatt1972 said:


> You're shifting the goalposts here. The thread was asking if aliens were coming to visit or not. Any scientifically minded person will freely admit that we have barely scratched the surface of what it is that we CAN know. There are also many precluded posibilities simply because this world is where our brains evolved - we percieve things in ways suited to our own world.
> 
> But, to get back to the original question, I still maintain that an alien visit is impossible. I refuse to accept the idea that just because we're not sure of the existance of some imagined thing, we need to act as if that imagined thing exists. Logic dictates the opposite stance.
> 
> ...


Huh? you say: "Any scientifically minded person will freely admit that we have barely scratched the surface of what it is that we CAN know" then follow with: "the possibility of alien visitation is impossible"... and the statement: "NOTHING can move faster than light" which is based on the assumption that we know everything we need to know about the nature of space and time and 'speed' as we understand it. I wouldn't bet on that. 

Most 'scientifically minded' people speak in terms of probabilities based on current understandings, not "impossibilities."


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

bluesmostly said:


> Huh? you say: "Any scientifically minded person will freely admit that we have barely scratched the surface of what it is that we CAN know" then follow with: "the possibility of alien visitation is impossible"... and the statement: "NOTHING can move faster than light" which is based on the assumption that we know everything we need to know about the nature of space and time and 'speed' as we understand it. I wouldn't bet on that.
> 
> Most 'scientifically minded' people speak in terms of probabilities based on current understandings, not "impossibilities."


Special relativity has demonstarted unequivocably that nothing macroscopic can go faster than light. It would take *literally *an infinite amount of energy to make a macroscopic object reach _only _the speed of light. Nearly a century of experimentation has justified this claim. I'll change my tune if and when something plausible makes me change my mind, for now I'll bet on it. 

As for FTL travel, it certainly remains to be seen if it can be done, but our understanding and ability to manipulate space, time, gravity (itself still almost completely puzzling) and energy would have to change substantially. So far everything in that realm has been speculation and dead ends, so I remain extremely skeptical, skeptical enough to believe strongly that it can never be done.

This leaves the issue of probability. The probability that alien life exists at all. The probability that it became super intelligent and technologically advanced. The probability that it existed at the same time as we do (we've existed as a species for 50 000 years or so. 50 000/13 000 000 000 = .0004% of the time the universe has been around) The probability that aliens found us in this great big universe. The probability that they have or will visit us. All are pretty marginal probabilities. Multiply them all together and you get essentially impossible.

I would soften my stance somewhat by saying that visitation by aliens is _virtually _impossible if there was any reason for me to think that there was a snowball's chance in hell of it happening, but I don't, so I won't.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

mrmatt1972 said:


> I would soften my stance somewhat by saying that visitation by aliens is _virtually _impossible if there was any reason for me to think that there was a snowball's chance in hell of it happening, but I don't, so I won't.


Man..please don't take this the wrong way...but you are one closed minded dude..LOL. You most be the fun of the party..-) U should think about joining the Church..they love folks like you at the Vatican..


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

al3d said:


> Man..please don't take this the wrong way...but you are one closed minded dude..LOL. You most be the fun of the party..-) U should think about joining the Church..they love folks like you at the Vatican..


Trust me, they wouldn't like me at the Vatican - I'd get burned at the stake. 9kkhhd 

I'm not closed minded, just rational. I take exception to what I see as ridiculous claims, especially when very pedantic logic shows how ridiculous the claim is. I'm a libertarian though, so i don't really care if you want to believe in stuff you can't see. I'm just having fun today 'case I have the time.


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## geezer (Apr 30, 2008)

Matt..I hope for the sake of your students you are more open minded ,or do you teach only within your narrow realm of understanding?


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

mrmatt1972 said:


> TI'm a libertarian though, so i don't really care if you want to believe in stuff you can't see. I'm just having fun today 'case I have the time.


So, i understand that you do not beleive in the Wind..since you can't see it, or Atoms, or Sound...all can't be seen realy!...


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Special relativity has demonstarted unequivocably that nothing macroscopic can go faster than light. It would take *literally *an infinite amount of energy to make a macroscopic object reach _only _the speed of light. Nearly a century of experimentation has justified this claim. I'll change my tune if and when something plausible makes me change my mind, for now I'll bet on it.
> 
> As for FTL travel, it certainly remains to be seen if it can be done, but our understanding and ability to manipulate space, time, gravity (itself still almost completely puzzling) and energy would have to change substantially. So far everything in that realm has been speculation and dead ends, so I remain extremely skeptical, skeptical enough to believe strongly that it can never be done.
> 
> ...


Brilliant! I love it Matt! You are very articulate and thoughtful. I am not a big fan of linear logic but your postures are clever as they are entertaining. Cheers, D


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Its good that probability has entered the thread. We all know that some of the greatest physicists calculated that the probability that we are actually living in a computer program to be 1. In that case, alien visits will only occur if the program allows it............


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

bluesmostly said:


> Brilliant! I love it Matt! You are very articulate and thoughtful. I am not a big fan of linear logic but your postures are clever as they are entertaining. Cheers, D


thanks, I think.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

geezer said:


> Matt..I hope for the sake of your students you are more open minded ,or do you teach only within your narrow realm of understanding?


I teach the curriculum that I'm required to teach. But, I'm a rational empiricist, not a post modernist, so when I teach science that's what I teach. When I ask for opinions, I expect them to be well formed and well defended. Not every opinion is equal. It is not always true that there is "no wrong answer." But I teach grade 4, so this kind of debate doesn't ever come up. If I'm asked about my beliefs I say that I don't discuss them, and whatever you and your parents believe is OK.

I hope for your sake you can take a short course in logic.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

on this particular subject, my views and yours are very similar. i just said it differently than you did, and probably not as well.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

al3d said:


> So, i understand that you do not beleive in the Wind..since you can't see it, or Atoms, or Sound...all can't be seen realy!...


You'd like David Hume.

David Hume (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

One of his ideas (and I'm sure I'm getting this wrong) was that there was absolutely nothing that we could be certain of because our senses are faulty. Another was that there is no such thing as cause and effect, but only our judgement and expectations based on our personal experiences.

In all seriousness, the word "see" was used in a more general sense than simply what our eyes and brains do together, i think you knew that... I accept evidence too. Like the water that is suddenly pooling in my basement. I can see evidence of past condensation on the cold water pipe that leads to the bathroom above, and I can't see a leak. I'd like to believe there is no leak, but I've never seen a pool of water there in three years. The evidence suggests that there is a leak that I can't see.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I like that we're interested in life from beyond our world, and that we theorize, search, and wonder. However, I don't spend any significant effort or time on it as I believe our immediate concerns are more important right now. 

Peace, Mooh.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

As far as other lifeforms in the universe go, I think it's pretty much guaranteed. The probability we'll find very basic lifeforms in our own solar system are actually being seriously investigated. The basis for this research have their origins in our oceans. Microscopic lifeforms that live in the deepest ocean waters under great pressure and free of oxygen are being studied today. Of course these are not the kind of lifeforms that tantalize the UFO set. As far as "warp drives" go, I'll leave that to all the guitar players/advanced propulsion experts here at GC. LOL

Will Saturn's Titan Yield 1st Evidence of Life Beyond Earth?

Shawn.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Good one about it leaving it to the guitar players to figure out warp drive Shawn. 

I am not a follower of the UFO movement but I do find it facinationg and entertaining. I have listened to a few 'experts' and researchers on the topic and to claim that there is no credible evidence can only come from someone who hasn't looked into it at all imo. 

There is a big difference between evidence and proof. There are tens of thousands reports and accounts and mounds of credible 'evidence', as for credible 'proof', there is none. Now that is an interesting phenomena. 

If you listen to someone like Steven Greer (The Disclosure Project) he explains that apparent anomoly (tons of evidence but no proof) by arguing that there has been a very well organized cover up agenda on that part of national governments and that that program is being dismantaled worldwide as governments continue to release classifed information of ET's and prepare for 'official disclosure'. 

I can hardly wait...


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

bluesmostly said:


> Good one about it leaving it to the guitar players to figure out warp drive Shawn.
> 
> I am not a follower of the UFO movement but I do find it facinationg and entertaining. I have listened to a few 'experts' and researchers on the topic and to claim that there is no credible evidence can only come from someone who hasn't looked into it at all imo.
> 
> ...












So these guys are out of a job now. Geez


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## dodgechargerfan (Mar 22, 2006)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Trust me, they wouldn't like me at the Vatican - I'd get burned at the stake. 9kkhhd
> 
> I'm not closed minded, just rational. I take exception to what I see as ridiculous claims, especially when very pedantic logic shows how ridiculous the claim is. I'm a libertarian though, so i don't really care if you want to believe in stuff you can't see. I'm just having fun today 'case I have the time.


I think we're paddling the same canoe - I don't think there's any proof of alien life - or more specific to this discussion, visits from other planets.

..and I think that's what I left out of my point earlier - visits from other planets via some means of transport - that earned me your scorn  .

I was merely thinking outside of the "physics that we know" and of course there's no way to prove, but you can't not think about stuff like that just because it doesn't fit into our current rational.
What got me thinking about this in that way was the mayfly, which could live as short a life as a half hour and not usually more than 24 hours.
What else could there be that might have a much shorter existence? Bacteria, for one. How far can we keep looking until we can say we've found it all. That was really my point, we just haven't found out everything. One day we may figure out to measure an event of an infinitesimally short period of time. 
That's why I said "species" rather than "race" but the argument could be expanded to include some of the things that you brought up such as dimensions, etc.. but I don't believe that we have any where near a real handle on what that means, so I would hesitate to ascribe any kind of theory based on such things - so I didn't take it as far as a race visiting us and saving us..... that's what the Grilled Cheesus is for.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

geezer said:


> I believe 100% that we have been visited by objects that are not man made.Numerous military personnel and other very credible people have come forward with accounts of sightings .Some of these sightings have been tracked on radar.I have personally seen 3 ufo's...all at different times and all moving unlike anything possible with our current technology .Many ufo's could be experimental military craft or drones, but to dismiss the countless sightings made worldwide is close minded.I think that it's quite possible aliens have been coming here for 1000's of years and for all we know have bases in deep ocean trenches.We don't even know everything about our own planet(new species of life are discovered even now)how could be possibly know what a lifeform 1000's of years more advanced than us is capable of.


I totally agree, while I myself have not been witness to anything otherworldly, I personally know two people who have, neither of which are wierd or strange in anyway. My girlfriend was in her tenst with her two (at the time) young children. Her daughter later drew a picture of the trianguilar space ship without prompting from anyone. Why not? Maybe they can save us from ourselves?


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

i had kind of been thinking about this stuff today...with the new cloud cover being caused by pollution and depleting the planet...what if the other planets in the system, that are gaseous and that have been deemed "uninhabitable" have been like our own? ran the planet into the proverbial ground...

wouldn't it be wild if that was the case...but...they had "evolved" to either live in the gas or underground??


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## geezer (Apr 30, 2008)

In the mid 70's I saw a bright white light traveling along the top of a mountain range approximately 60 miles away ...it suddenly turned 90 degrees and silently flew overhead within a second or a second and a half.It was dark out and it lit up the area like midday.I would like to hear a logical explanation as to what it could have been... or is it easier to say how ridiculous it is to claim it wasn't from earth ..or maybe I'm making it up.I have tried my whole life not to follow the common path..it's the people who think outside the norm who have accomplished the most in this world and they have faced ridicule in many cases, only to prove popular belief to be flawed..


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

geezer said:


> In the mid 70's I saw a bright white light traveling along the top of a mountain range approximately 60 miles away ...it suddenly turned 90 degrees and silently flew overhead within a second or a second and a half.It was dark out and it lit up the area like midday.I would like to hear a logical explanation as to what it could have been... or is it easier to say how ridiculous it is to claim it wasn't from earth ..or maybe I'm making it up.I have tried my whole life not to follow the common path..it's the people who think outside the norm who have accomplished the most in this world and they have faced ridicule in many cases, only to prove popular belief to be flawed..


Hey Geezer,

Many folks I know including me and my Dad saw the same thing you saw...and at about the same time (in the '60s and '70s). Our 'encounter' was a bit further away as it was way up in the night sky, but the actions were the same. I know it was weird, and I am not going to give you a satisfactory explanation for your experience as I do not have one. However, to make a 'leap of faith' and claim that it must have been a spaceship of 'non-earth origin' just because you haven't yet found a logical explanation for the event is a stretch in my opinion. I don't know what you saw, or what we saw. But it does sound cool and I'd love to hear an explanation.


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## geezer (Apr 30, 2008)

I didn't say it was a spaceship...but if there is no explanation for an earthly origin ,where else do you look?


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

At least six of this species are running for municipal office throughout Ontario this month, with four of them being spotted in Ottawa and area. A number of them are currently leading due to their platforms of clearing up the streets of criminals and the homeless, by eating them.


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## geezer (Apr 30, 2008)

Ya,that's one of the dudes I saw


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

hey if those guys are eating the homeless, ask them to hang out at price chopper on saturday morning, and loblaws the ones near vic park and gerrard. after that, they can go to queen st and have an all-you-can-eat buffet


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

K, so what about the Philidalphia Experiment? If even half of that S%&t is true then We know squat about physics. I'm sure alot of the lights and strange things in the sky are gov't experiments, not to mention things like ball lightening and just odd electromagnetic happenings...


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

well it's wednesday, nothing out of the ordinary out my way yet... 

If you want a real kick on ET life forms and future civilizations take a listen to the famous theoretical physicist Michio Kaku (you can find lots of interviews on youtube)... oh man, he has some interesting ideas, and seemingly based on evidence he pulls out of his @#$$... sometimes he seems more intent on promoting a global geo-political society rather than science.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

These have been seen around parts of the country. A pair of them apparently go by the names of Joseph and Margaret Harper.


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## Guest (Oct 14, 2010)

cheezyridr said:


> .. vic park and gerrard ..


I went to high school south of there (neil mc neil) late '70's.
So many gluebags .. and they're still there?!?


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

ok, so earlier, when i was still in a mood to approach this topic in a more serious manner, i stated why i thought that the aliens some of you folks are looking for is highly improbable. this is a more involved and coherent way of putting that argument:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rare_Earth_hypothesis

here is another facet of my argument, stated much better than the way i said it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I'm fairly sure I've seen alien aircraft, and it was pretty damn far away - this has been on at least 2 occasions. Maybe it was some new-age flying gear, but I'm doubtful.

I believe they probably do exist. Past that, I don't worry about it too much. Also, a coworker of mine saw something weird outside her apartment window - and promptly got her quality camera and recorded it for at least a good 30 seconds. I watched the video, I zoomed in: that sucker is not a satellite.


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## dodgechargerfan (Mar 22, 2006)

All right. Which one of you did this? 

Mystery shiny objects floating over Manhattan spark UFO frenzy


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

This is the one referred by Frank Zappa on 'Live at the Roxy and Elsewhere'











I believe this is the one that has been lurking in the basement of Parliament Hill.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Here's the dude I don't want to meet...but I hear he's arriving at the end of this month!


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Alex Csank said:


> Here's the dude I don't want to meet...but I hear he's arriving at the end of this month!


Dude could use a little work


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

they have the hearing aids covered though! with LED's too!


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

so there was a UFO phenom on wed as predicted, over NY city. not as thrilling as we had hoped but, there you have it:


[video=youtube;X2FO8vjkdOg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2FO8vjkdOg[/video]


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

They're just looking for someone to jam with...


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## xuthal (May 15, 2007)

we are a foolish species to believe we comprehend science within our limited minds
I for one am waiting to see whats up with what,with all these governments coming out and releasing classified material it makes you wonder.If there are aliens going to make themselves known to us it probably won't be what we expect.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Peter MacKay will be stepping down as Minister of Defense. This will be his replacement:


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## Shiny_Beast (Apr 16, 2009)

One could argue, there's probably older civilizations than ours in this galaxy, they've probably got around the speed of light as a barrier and know how to look for signs of "intelligent" life, ergo, we've been investigated...


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Shiny_Beast said:


> One could argue, there's probably older civilizations than ours in this galaxy, they've probably got around the speed of light as a barrier and know how to look for signs of "intelligent" life, ergo, we've been investigated...


One could argue that, but one would be imagining things then assuming that they are true. 

One could also imagine that there is an invisible elephant in my garage that only speaks to me on tuesday afternoons, or a Flying Spaghetti Monster.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Starbuck said:


> K, so what about the Philidalphia Experiment?


A hoax

http://www.parascope.com/en/articles/allende.htm


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

mrmatt1972 said:


> One could argue that, but one would be imagining things then assuming that they are true.
> 
> One could also imagine that there is an invisible elephant in my garage that only speaks to me on tuesday afternoons, or a Flying Spaghetti Monster.


Yar!! Now, don't ye be talkin' trash about 'Pastafarians', mrmatt1972 (yeah,like that be yer real name!!). He of 'many noodly appendages' knows where ye lives!!


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Sorry man..but you're one stuborn SOB. all along this thread you've basicaly told anyone who does'nt agree with your close minded view of things that they are WRONG and you are RIGHT. REALLY getting old. 



mrmatt1972 said:


> One could argue that, but one would be imagining things then assuming that they are true.
> 
> One could also imagine that there is an invisible elephant in my garage that only speaks to me on tuesday afternoons, or a Flying Spaghetti Monster.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

So, Alain, are you saying that mrmatt1972 should not state his opinion? His opinion may disagree with yours, but he still has the right to state his opinion. That's what these internet forums - and indeed a free society - are all about.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

I think what really cracks me up is that as Humans we are so arrogant to NOT believe there could possibly be more intelligent life than ours somewhere BUT billions of folk believe in some omnipotent being or another who created us out of the ether. Not Logical.


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## Alex Csank (Jul 22, 2010)

Starbuck said:


> I think what really cracks me up is that as Humans we are so arrogant to NOT believe there could possibly be more intelligent life than ours somewhere BUT billions of folk believe in some omnipotent being or another who created us out of the ether. Not Logical.


Well, I'm definitely with you there! It's all about being human. Humans have always had an unstoppable desire to find an explanation for things they do not understand (illness, death, healing, the moon and stars, gravity, dinosaur bones, natural disasters, plagues, etc.). In the absence of a clear and logical 'scientific' answer, there is still a strong desire to come up with some explanation, and that has often resulted in the creation of superstitions, gods, myths, alien visitors, ghosts and other non-scientific explanations for unusual objects and phenomenae. It's also true however, that we as a species are (though to a lesser extent) skeptical and somewhat cynical. And therefore, some of our kind has always asked the pertinent questions which have enabled us to investigate and discover more plausible, 'provable' explanations. 

As I have previously written, although I have not seen, read or heard any definitive proof that intelligent alien life exists, nor that any aliens have actually visited us, I do not exclude the possibility. I just do not support the '1+1 (and then something magic happens) = 11' conclusions supported by those who 'believe'. I guess I am just an old skeptic.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Alex Csank said:


> So, Alain, are you saying that mrmatt1972 should not state his opinion? His opinion may disagree with yours, but he still has the right to state his opinion. That's what these internet forums - and indeed a free society - are all about.


Stating his opinion..for sure....to laught at others...no


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

In response to the aforementioned change in the Minister of Defense portfolio, the Liberals have named the following as their defense critic.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

al3d said:


> Sorry man..but you're one stuborn SOB. all along this thread you've basicaly told anyone who does'nt agree with your close minded view of things that they are WRONG and you are RIGHT. REALLY getting old.


Thank you for noticing. I'm not closed minded though, I'm just not intellectually prepared to accept junk thinking.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

al3d said:


> Stating his opinion..for sure....to laught at others...no


I've never been disrespectful or laughed at anyone (in this thread). Are you upset because you disagree with me but can't explain why?


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

al3d said:


> Sorry man..but you're one stuborn SOB. all along this thread you've basicaly told anyone who does'nt agree with your close minded view of things that they are WRONG and you are RIGHT. REALLY getting old.


Actually all opinions are derived by your background. Matt is a teacher, therefore he only accepts proven things that exist in the present. You are a sci-fi fan, so you believe in things that have the possibility to exist in the future. All of our backgrounds determine how we perceive things.............


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Starbuck said:


> I think what really cracks me up is that as Humans we are so arrogant to NOT believe there could possibly be more intelligent life than ours somewhere BUT billions of folk believe in some omnipotent being or another who created us out of the ether. Not Logical.


And so arrogant that the being looks exactly like us. Its all foolishness as the highest form of life in the Universe in the inanimate carbon rod..............


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

a man once said "you're welcome to have you're own opinion, but you can't have you're own facts"


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

mrmatt1972 said:


> I've never been disrespectful or laughed at anyone (in this thread). Are you upset because you disagree with me but can't explain why?


Jesus..i don't want to see you been disrespectful then...


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

And the Green Party has introduced their defense critic...


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I've just taken the time to read this entire thread. I've got a pretty scientific background, including university-level Astronomy. Any scientist I've ever known would tell you that anything is possible - maybe not yet - but NEVER IMPOSSIBLE.

I am reminded of Harry Chapin's song, Flowers Are Red.

Wow.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Now the Bloc has introduced their new defense critic...


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

xuthal said:


> we are a foolish species to believe we comprehend science within our limited minds
> I for one am waiting to see whats up with what,with all these governments coming out and releasing classified material it makes you wonder.If there are aliens going to make themselves known to us it probably won't be what we expect.


This is a good representation of my view. I don't choose to believe anything, I will wait for the proof. 

Until now there is a ton of evidence but no concrete proof - some believers might state otherwise but that won't cut it. Conversely, to dismiss things as impossible without looking at the enormous amount of evidence puts a person in the same category as those who just want to believe...


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

xuthal said:


> we are a foolish species to believe we comprehend science within our limited minds


I land in this camp, as well as with those who consider us as arrogant to think we are the only sentient species in the universe. It's fun to imagine/fantasize about whether aliens exist/have already visited/will visit again. I personally believe it is illogical to think that we are are the only planet among millions in the universe to develop intelligent life. I find it even hard to comprehend the scope of the _known_ universe, let alone what we can't even see yet through our limited technology. If one believes the Big Bang theory, and that the universe is still expanding outward, who of us is certain that the original "big bang" wasn't just the sneeze of a monstrous sentient being, a millenium ago to us with our limited concept of time, but a microsecond to the sneezer. In that context, we are all just microcosmic germs on an electron (earth) spinning around a nucleus (our sun), all part of an atom of cosmic snot, infinitesimally small and insignificant in the grand scheme of things. We are limited by the size of our brains, the depth of our intellect, the strength of our beliefs and our restricted sense of the laws of the universe. I love thinking about this stuff and wondering about what is and what could be, but I don't for an instant think it is anything but conjecture. Who really knows?


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

A lot of people do not realize how absolutely mind-boggling big, huge and massive the universe is. Given the mega-gazillion star sytems there are now, not counting the ones that have been born, lived, gone red giant and have morphed into anything from a red dwarf to a black hole in the past 13.6 billion years, the odds that intelligent life has evolved, existed and even disappeared, are pretty good. The odds that humanity will encounter other intelligent life given how absolutely mind-boggling big, huge and massive the universe is, is unlikely. It's all about numbers.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

you should read the links in post #66

then read #91


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I find the Rare Earth theory smelling a little to close to the beliefs of the Pope, but then he has the majority of those in the Science field on his side............


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> you should read the links in post #66
> 
> then read #91


What post are you referring to ???


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

these links:

Rare Earth hypothesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fermi paradox - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

they explain why the notion of using probability numbers to judge wether or not aliens have visited earth, or even exist, is a poor method, at best. it's a long read, but says it all better than i could. _it doesn't mean that there isn't any aliens, only that the idea that the number of planets being so large virtually garanteeing them is flawed_, and explains why. that's why i said that people can have their own (meaning unique) opinions, but they can't have their own facts.


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## xuthal (May 15, 2007)

Big_Daddy said:


> I land in this camp, as well as with those who consider us as arrogant to think we are the only sentient species in the universe. It's fun to imagine/fantasize about whether aliens exist/have already visited/will visit again. I personally believe it is illogical to think that we are are the only planet among millions in the universe to develop intelligent life. I find it even hard to comprehend the scope of the _known_ universe, let alone what we can't even see yet through our limited technology. If one believes the Big Bang theory, and that the universe is still expanding outward, who of us is certain that the original "big bang" wasn't just the sneeze of a monstrous sentient being, a millenium ago to us with our limited concept of time, but a microsecond to the sneezer. In that context, we are all just microcosmic germs on an electron (earth) spinning around a nucleus (our sun), all part of an atom of cosmic snot, infinitesimally small and insignificant in the grand scheme of things. We are limited by the size of our brains, the depth of our intellect, the strength of our beliefs and our restricted sense of the laws of the universe. I love thinking about this stuff and wondering about what is and what could be, but I don't for an instant think it is anything but conjecture. Who really knows?


Right on,that's my thinking of the universe,a big sneeze.I sometimes wonder the same thing,within that context it's possible we have multiple universes inside our own bodies.:food-smiley-004:


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