# Desperate for workers.



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Today in the mail I got a mail out card from Tigercat, a factory with a few locations, one being in my hometown. It stated jobs were available, good pay benefits, etc. I've never seen a factory do that before.


----------



## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Too many people too used to sucking on the CERB tit who now see themselves as far too good to work a job like that (whatever job that is). I can’t tell you how many times I see lazy fuckers standing at highway exits and intersections begging for a handout….within 1 km of 30 “We’re Hiring” signs.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I received one as well.

Tigercat makes some of the products once produced at the old Koehring Waterous Factory on Market Street (now the Freshco Plaza). By that I mean forestry harvesting equipment such as feller bunchers, skidders and other tracked and wheeled harvesting gear, probably delimbers et cetera.

I worked there when I first got off the road.

Tigercat was started by Toni Iarocci who was one of the design engineers at Koehring Waterous.

When KW sold assets to Timberjack, a few of the brainier guys left to start their own things. Toni was a pretty sharp cookie by all accounts.

Anyway, pretty good outfit as far as I know.


----------



## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

JBFairthorne said:


> Too many people too used to sucking on the CERB tit who now see themselves as far too good to work a job like that (whatever job that is). I can’t tell you how many times I see lazy fuckers standing at highway exits and intersections begging for a handout….within 1 km of 30 “We’re Hiring” signs.


You mad bro?


----------



## Verne (Dec 29, 2018)

JBFairthorne said:


> Too many people too used to sucking on the CERB tit who now see themselves as far too good to work a job like that (whatever job that is). I can’t tell you how many times I see lazy fuckers standing at highway exits and intersections begging for a handout….within 1 km of 30 “We’re Hiring” signs.


Our neighbours haven't worked in 2 years. Why would they when I do. Right?!? Freeloaders. I mean the entire 4 person family, not just one of them.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

This ends well, calling it now.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Verne said:


> Our neighbours haven't worked in 2 years. Why would they when I do. Right?!? Freeloaders. I mean the entire 4 person family, not just one of them.


Why don't they work is the better question to ask. There must be some reason.

I could afford not to work for a few years if I thought that was where my priority was, it is not at present. Old + poor = sad


----------



## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Milkman said:


> forestry harvesting equipment


They are gonna require some fabricating and mechanical skills or at least aptitude in those areas. Could be an opportunity for a trade apprenticeship. Community colleges have great pre-apprenticeship programs.


----------



## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Thunderboy1975 said:


> You mad bro?


Actually, not really…but I have such a gigantic disdain for “takers” and people who just expect it handed to them.

People have hard times, I get it. I’ve been there. THIS is not that. This is someone who actual refuses to work because they get $ that comes from someone else’s pocket, willingly or unwillingly, usually from several sources, milking everything they can for as little effort as possible. Why should they bother to provide something for themselves…or better yet, give something back?

You know what t they call an organism like that, don’t you? A parasite.

I help people who help themselves. Believe me, my kids have heard the rant a million times…it’s like muscle memory.

I retract my first statement. Yeah it pisses me off…just not enough to ruin a moment of my day.


----------



## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Budda said:


> This ends well, calling it now.


I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again…there really needs to be a Like Like Like button.


----------



## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

Remember the "Shaking Lady" ?


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

KapnKrunch said:


> They are gonna require some fabricating and mechanical skills or at least aptitude in those areas. Could be an opportunity for a trade apprenticeship. Community colleges have great pre-apprenticeship programs.


Yeah they do lots of welding and general fabrication, assembly et cetera.
Back in the day (at Tigercat’s predecessor Koehring) we also did a lot of machining and even had a foundry with highly skilled pattern makers.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

JBFairthorne said:


> . This is someone who actual refuses to work because they get $ that comes from someone else’s pocket, willingly or unwillingly, usually from several sources, milking everything they can for as little effort as possible. Why should they bother to provide something for themselves…or better yet, give something back?


I figure you almost can't blame people for this. As long as other idiots facilitate their lifestyle, why not just take advantage. If I thought I could live my life without effort I cannot say I wouldn't wanna get on that ride.

So we are clear, I am not one of those people. Charity does not become me. I have lived in my car, a tent, a laundry room... you get the idea. I dont at all condone these leeches or parasites or whatever derogatory word applies (there are lots) but a part of me has to ask who really is to blame.


----------



## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

Time to sit back and let the migrants do all the work like it was supposed to be. 🤣


----------



## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

For years among my social circle, I seem to be in the minority of workers slugging it out. It never used to be like that. Many of the people I know, and I mean a majority lately, are on some sort of government assistance whether it's welfare, disability, EI, etc.. They would all cease to exist if they weren't given a handout.


----------



## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)




----------



## Choo5440 (Oct 24, 2020)

I'm sidestepping the current discussion about those not working... 
I wanted to point out that a lot of people I know have been getting promoted/getting new and better positions. This has been leaving holes that are difficult to fill in the current labour market.


----------



## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Yeah, that’s the problem…the “current” labour market. Lol.


----------



## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

a lot of places are hiring now
and not that many applicants it seems
i don't think it's the fault of sucking on the CERB tit although maybe that tipped the balance
people don't want to get paid a small amount to do sh!t work and they realized during the covid era that they don't have to and now it seems you can pick and choose from available jobs the employers who can't find workers gonna have to up their game either on compensation or working conditions to get people in the door
j


----------



## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Unemployment is currently st 4.3%, CERB stopped back in November. All the young folks in my daughter’s graduating class have jobs (many have more than one) - I’m thinking some people in this thread are guilty of confirmation bias. Noticing what you have a strong opinions about.


----------



## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

JBFairthorne said:


> Too many people too used to sucking on the CERB tit who now see themselves as far too good to work a job like that (whatever job that is). I can’t tell you how many times I see lazy fuckers standing at highway exits and intersections begging for a handout….within 1 km of 30 “We’re Hiring” signs.


I think a lot of those who took advantage of CERB and are still unemployed, were like that long before CERB came along.


----------



## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> a lot of places are hiring now
> and not that many applicants it seems
> i don't think it's the fault of sucking on the CERB tit although maybe that tipped the balance
> people don't want to get paid a small amount to do sh!t work and they realized during the covid era that they don't have to and now it seems you can pick and choose from available jobs the employers who can't find workers gonna have to up their game either on compensation or working conditions to get people in the door
> j


Agreed. Further, there's the issue of brain drain in some industries now. Neck-down employees are practically useless for some time until they learn and ultimately master the job. I'm seeing it in large-scale event production now. Guys who were experts in their given fields are gone....gone because they've re-trained and moved into other industries...2 years is a long time to wait for things to get re-started.


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Some looked at their paychecks and realized the after tax/deductions take home pay is less than what they can get through EI or welfare?

Also, growing weed is legal. How many use that as an income source (tax free)? I've had weed offered to some of my kijiji ads.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> I received one as well.
> 
> Tigercat makes some of the products once produced at the old Koehring Waterous Factory on Market Street (now the Freshco Plaza). By that I mean forestry harvesting equipment such as feller bunchers, skidders and other tracked and wheeled harvesting gear, probably delimbers et cetera.
> 
> ...


My son-in-law works for Tiger Cat in Woodstock. A few years back he underwent a double transplant, kidney and pancreas. He was near death. He exhausted his sick benefits and the owners started paying him his salary until he could return. My son-in-laws work ethic is such that he'd likely return too early rather than take advantage of the situation. He hates when he can't work. There were a couple times the plant was shut down due to an outbreak in the plant. He simply went to work as a dish washer at East Side Mario's where my daughter is a manager. He still does some part time shifts there in addition to working at Tiger Cat.
Anyway I thought that was above and beyond for Tiger Cat to pay him his salary after his sick benefits ran out.


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

guitarman2 said:


> I thought that was above and beyond for Tiger Cat to pay him his salary after his sick benefits ran out.


Some companies do value good workers.


----------



## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> above and beyond for Tiger Cat to pay him his salary after his sick benefits ran out.


That's awesone. Company policy? Or good team at that plant? Either way, if he is an asset, his loyalty should be secured.


----------



## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Mark Brown said:


> I figure you almost can't blame people for this. As long as other idiots facilitate their lifestyle, why not just take advantage. If I thought I could live my life without effort I cannot say I wouldn't wanna get on that ride.
> 
> So we are clear, I am not one of those people. Charity does not become me. I have lived in my car, a tent, a laundry room... you get the idea. I dont at all condone these leeches or parasites or whatever derogatory word applies (there are lots) but a part of me has to ask who really is to blame.


You had a laundry room....you lucky bastard.


----------



## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

laristotle said:


> Some looked at their paychecks and realized the after tax/deductions take home pay is less than what they can get through EI or welfare?
> 
> Also, growing weed is legal. How many use that as an income source (tax free)? I've had weed offered to some of my kijiji ads.


You've had weed offered to you for kijiji ads....You lucky bastard.


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)




----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

HighNoon said:


> You had a laundry room....you lucky bastard.


I didn't HAVE a laundry room.... I lived in someone else's. 

Punk band house, I think there were 8 people living there full time and god only knows how many people from time to time.... Privacy was not a privilege I was entitled to, but rent was cheap.


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

HighNoon said:


> You've had weed offered to you for kijiji ads....You lucky bastard.


I don't do that anymore.
If I did, I'd grow my own.
And sure wouldn't accept it as payment.


----------



## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Benefits of the CERB.....increase in fentanyl overdoses.


----------



## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Mark Brown said:


> I didn't HAVE a laundry room.... I lived in someone else's.
> 
> Punk band house, I think there were 8 people living there full time and god only knows how many people from time to time.... Privacy was not a privilege I was entitled to, but rent was cheap.


You had someone else's laundry room to live in....You lucky bastard.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

HighNoon said:


> You had someone else's laundry room to live in....You lucky bastard.


You know, if you wanna pay me 100 dollars rent, you could live in my laundry room. Then you too could be a lucky bastard.


----------



## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Mark Brown said:


> You know, if you wanna pay me 100 dollars rent, you could live in my laundry room. Then you too could be a lucky bastard.


Does that include cable?


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

HighNoon said:


> Does that include cable?


No, but you can use my WiFi.
Hell, you could probably even do laundry once in a while.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Some people know what they want to do, train for it, pursue it doggedly, and do it happily (and productively) for the rest of their working days; sometimes well past when they maybe should have retired. Some folks don't have a clear idea, trip and stumble into a career path they never really thought about, but learned to love, because it fed a previously undiscovered side of themselves. And other folks trip and stumble into whatever is in front of them and available. Maybe they had dreams, but they don't really have a "calling", just the need for a paycheck.

During the various lockdowns, many people who could not continue working, and went on CERB, had the timeout to ask themselves "Do I _really_ want to go back to doing *that*?". And while they may still not have had a calling, they could not honestly see themselves as thrilled to back to "that". But if you don't want to be, and don't need to be "there", where _*should*_ you be?

The picture gets even more complicated by the sudden leap of inflation. Can the jobs that are available to you, suddenly, pay the bills? Some folks really ARE unmotivated, but a great many are simply lost at the choice point. It's a fork in the road with 500 tines.


----------



## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

mhammer said:


> Some people know what they want to do, train for it, pursue it doggedly, and do it happily (and productively) for the rest of their working days; sometimes well past wean they maybe should have retired. Some folks don't have a clear idea, trip and stumble into a career path they never really thought about, but learned to love, because it fed a previously undiscovered side of themselves. And other folks trip and stumble into whatever is in front of them and available. Maybe they had dreams, but they don't really have a "calling", just the need for a paycheck.
> 
> During the various lockdowns, many people who could not continue working, and went on CERB, had the timeout to ask themselves "Do I _really_ want to go back to doing *that*?". And while they may still not have had a calling, they could not honestly see themselves as thrilled to back to "that". But if you don't want to be, and don't need to be "there", where _*should*_ you be?
> 
> The picture gets even more complicated by the sudden leap of inflation. Cab the jobs that are available to you, suddenly, pay the bills? Some folks really ARE unmotivated, but a great many are simply lost at the choice point. It's a fork in the road with 500 tines.


CERB....totally unnecessary, unwarranted and a waste of your tax money. Same with lockdowns. This form of welfare was a race to the bottom and the results are reflected in the original post.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

mhammer said:


> Some people know what they want to do, train for it, pursue it doggedly, and do it happily (and productively) for the rest of their working days; sometimes well past wean they maybe should have retired. Some folks don't have a clear idea, trip and stumble into a career path they never really thought about, but learned to love, because it fed a previously undiscovered side of themselves. And other folks trip and stumble into whatever is in front of them and available. Maybe they had dreams, but they don't really have a "calling", just the need for a paycheck.
> 
> During the various lockdowns, many people who could not continue working, and went on CERB, had the timeout to ask themselves "Do I _really_ want to go back to doing *that*?". And while they may still not have had a calling, they could not honestly see themselves as thrilled to back to "that". But if you don't want to be, and don't need to be "there", where _*should*_ you be?
> 
> The picture gets even more complicated by the sudden leap of inflation. Cab the jobs that are available to you, suddenly, pay the bills? Some folks really ARE unmotivated, but a great many are simply lost at the choice point. It's a fork in the road with 500 tines.


It is literally a perfect storm out there right now between all of the points you make, peoples complete change in perspective (It is amazing what happens when the slaves get to think) and let us not forget to chuck in there the largest demographic ever to be leaving the workforce. All I can say is it is a great time to be in trades as I can do what others cannot and there are not a lot of me out there. Thank you poor lifestyle decisions for pushing me into a career I never wanted in a field that I didn't care about into a life that I love!!


----------



## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

CERB: 

Certainly Earned a Rest Bro


----------



## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Desperate for workers... pay them more money.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Mark Brown said:


> It is literally a perfect storm out there right now between all of the points you make, peoples complete change in perspective (It is amazing what happens when the slaves get to think) and let us not forget to chuck in there the largest demographic ever to be leaving the workforce. All I can say is it is a great time to be in trades as I can do what others cannot and there are not a lot of me out there. Thank you poor lifestyle decisions for pushing me into a career I never wanted in a field that I didn't care about into a life that I love!!


It's a catch 22. With the minimum wage where it is, it's hard to attract decent apprentices. You get a lot more responsibility, and not a lot more money.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Okay Player said:


> It's a catch 22. With the minimum wage where it is, it's hard to attract decent apprentices. You get a lot more responsibility, and not a lot more money.


4 years ago when I hired my first apprentice the minimum wage was 13.60 (I could be misremembering but that would be close). I paid that guy 20 dollars an hour, out of the gate, stat pay, vacation pay (also a lie, I numerated into a percentage on top of his wage which I want to say was 7.2% but I could be wrong) and then I subsequently taught him how to swing a hammer. 

You can always afford to pay people a decent wage, you just have to adjust your business to accommodate them accordingly. Most days he would have been cost neutral, some days of course he cost me money however the long term pay off was that in short order I was generally making money off of his labour. 

When I started in trades my Journeyman gave me a pay raise scale. Every 6 months over the course of 3 years, the time it would take to be a Journeyman. I left a job in Calgary making 12.60 an hour (somewhere around 2002) to work with him making 10.50 and since that day, I have never been out of work. I have made some rather poor life choices, so there were points I was out of money but that was mostly beer's fault. 

Here we are 20 some years later, mortgage free, no debt, 6 figure bank account and 10 guitars hanging on the wall (None of them are Gibsons, I cannot afford that shit  ).

You have to be able to explain the value of the position beyond the starting wage sometimes for them to really see the light. 

My old apprentice, well he installs for himself now, has employees (maybe just one, I cannot say) and is making bank.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Mark Brown said:


> 4 years ago when I hired my first apprentice the minimum wage was 13.60 (I could be misremembering but that would be close). I paid that guy 20 dollars an hour, out of the gate, stat pay, vacation pay (also a lie, I numerated into a percentage on top of his wage which I want to say was 7.2% but I could be wrong) and then I subsequently taught him how to swing a hammer.
> 
> You can always afford to pay people a decent wage, you just have to adjust your business to accommodate them accordingly. Most days he would have been cost neutral, some days of course he cost me money however the long term pay off was that in short order I was generally making money off of his labour.
> 
> ...


What was the standard journeyman wage when you were paying him $20/ hour?


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Okay Player said:


> What was the standard journeyman wage when you were paying him $20/ hour?


32.50 if you asked the union. I was not in the union, but that was the number they listed. It is the only reference I have as I have not been hourly for 20 years


----------



## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

@Mark Brown

Money, money, money. If that's the deal they can eff off right now.

The true value of any trade is that you will *always* be needed. Even when there is no money.


----------



## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

LOL why take a job and put up with ignorant Karens for minimum wage? If CERB is enough to make someone not want a job, that job must pay complete shit. CERB works out to like $11/hour with no benefits and still taxable. Not much of a life anywhere in Canada on that much money as a full-time worker. Sure, there will be a few people who don’t ever want to work, but most people want to work and make a living. Maybe cut the shareholder payments by a few percent and bump those wages to attract workers.


----------



## Stephenlouis (Jun 24, 2019)

JBFairthorne said:


> Too many people too used to sucking on the CERB tit who now see themselves as far too good to work a job like that (whatever job that is). I can’t tell you how many times I see lazy fuckers standing at highway exits and intersections begging for a handout….within 1 km of 30 “We’re Hiring” signs.


I still have some hope that will be recouped from the million freeloaders and cheaters. Canada is a strange, great, but quasi socialist country. I accept I am paying for 7 or 8 families through our welfare system with my taxes, and try not to be bitter as my standard of living drops lol. Cerb was being taken advantage off by the greedy, not so much the lazy, as they are on welfare. We are still a great place to live in spite of a personal tax rate of between the 2nd to 7th highest in the OECD counties. It is at the point that it discourages people from trying to earn more as they take home less.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Some folks have a head for business, and a solid plan. Some folks want to be in business for themselves but their business plan is shaky, and may even rely on cutting the sort of corners that simply can't offer employees a living wage. My own father, as sweet, honest, and industrious a guy as he was, had no head for business whatsoever. His "staff" consisted of me - who he'd give a fiver to every now and then - and a young guy who he'd have to wait to pay, and even then had to pay him before he could pay himself. Sometimes I think if it weren't for me working for free, he would have gone bankrupt....again.

It's like some folks experience with landlords. Years back, I shared a place in downtown Hamilton with our band's drummer. Our landlord had his own house elsewhere, plus a second property (where we lived) that he couldn't really afford to maintain in decent shape. It was a side-by-side double with a shared middle wall, and each side had a different owner. When the owner of the other side decided she didn't want to keep paying property taxes on a rundown property she couldn't rent (because it wouldn't meet safety specs), she decided to demolish it, and hired a bunch of guys from Six Nations, whom I gather weren't particularly experienced in "orderly" demolition, but were cheap. The resulting holes in the middle shared wall resulted in our heating bill going through the roof (actually, out the holes in the side). She and our landlord bickered for months about who was responsible for the repairs to the middle wall, and neither wanted to accept responsibility, largely because they couldn't afford it.

Some folks run businesses like that, and depend on employees to put up with crap wages and working conditions in order to make a go of it, the way that some landlords rely on tenants who have no other affordable choice and pay rents that make the landlord's mortgage payments...barely. Lots of folks are simply not equipped to competently, and fairly, carry out what they intend on carrying out. They're not evil, just not up to the task they set for themselves, and others suffer as a result.

Ya gots to have a solid plan, and you can't depend on others' willingness to put up with crap. That's a two-legged stool.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

mhammer said:


> Some folks have a head for business, and a solid plan. Some folks want to be in business for themselves but their business plan is shaky, and may even rely on cutting the sort of corners that simply can't offer employees a living wage. My own father, as sweet, honest, and industrious a guy as he was, had no head for business whatsoever. His "staff" consisted of me - who he'd give a fiver to every now and then - and a young guy who he'd have to wait to pay, and even then had to pay him before he could pay himself. Sometimes I think if it weren't for me working for free, he would have gone bankrupt....again.
> 
> It's like some folks experience with landlords. Years back, I shared a place in downtown Hamilton with our band's drummer. Our landlord had his own house elsewhere, plus a second property (where we lived) that he couldn't really afford to maintain in decent shape. It was a side-by-side double with a shared middle wall, and each side had a different owner. When the owner of the other side decided she didn't want to keep paying property taxes on a rundown property she couldn't rent (because it wouldn't meet safety specs), she decided to demolish it, and hired a bunch of guys from Six Nations, whom I gather weren't particularly experienced in "orderly" demolition, but were cheap. The resulting holes in the middle shared wall resulted in our heating bill going through the roof (actually, out the holes in the side). She and our landlord bickered for months about who was responsible for the repairs to the middle wall, and neither wanted to accept responsibility, largely because they couldn't afford it.
> 
> ...


The greatest advice I ever received in business oddly enough was to never worry about the money. Worry about the business first, or the work, or the job however you want to say it. This has been my mantra since day one. I work to succeed in what I do and in return, so far, I have largely been rewarded for my efforts. 

This advice came from the man I know who has the most money of the folks that I know so I figured I might just want to listen to him. 

Paying employees a living wage gives me the ability to sleep at night and without a good night sleep, I cannot help anyone


----------



## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Paying your employees a living wage for you =









Paying you employees as little as possible for you =


----------



## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)




----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

player99 said:


> Paying your employees a living wage for you =
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The way I see it brother is that we are all in the same boat and it is fucking sinking. We can all drown together or we can perhaps fix the boat.... but if people don't try then what the hell is it all for? I cannot overcome human greed and stupidity, I'm just one simple, fat, balding man.... but I'll be dammed if I don't do my part.


----------



## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

3 pages in and still an open thread... I'm stumped.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Always12AM said:


> I remember growing up thinking that I could probably buy a mediocre house from working part time at Blockbuster and then risking my mortgage payments every weekend at Sunset Speedway.


Back in the 80's a drummer friend of mine who's day job was a mechanic bought a nice house paid for from his weekend gig money.


----------



## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

player99 said:


> Desperate for workers... pay them more money.


And treat them decently. A lot of people in "the great resignation" are simply tired of being treated like garbage for garbage money.

And chances are pretty good that those people saying that young people don't want to work are those who want to treat them like garbage for garbage money.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

From what I see many people are flocking to jobs that allow them to work from home. My wife is in management at her company and they've had a big exodus of people leaving because they aren't allowed to work from home as much as they want to. The supervisors under her, through the pandemic were allowed 3 days to work from home and now that things are getting back to normal They want to scale it back to one day a week. Many supervisors just left.
The frontline union workers, some were allowed 2 days a week. Most of the frontline workers did a job that was impossible to do from home. The ones that were allowed to work from home, really couldn't do much from home other than paper work, that was 20% of their job. But weird things happened during the pandemic.
My wife has struggled with staff shortages for quite a while. Her field is health care and the salaries (including my wifes) are still very generously supplemented by the government and my wife still has a hard time keeping staff. Its like no one wants to work anymore. If CERB or any other government subsidy is discontinued, I'm not sure where they're getting their money. Unless theres these magic companies out there that are hiring and allowing them to work completely from home.
All through this while the staff was allowed to work from home, almost all of them are completely behind on paper work and have got nothing done.
I'm glad I have a job that can't be done from home. Of course I live a 4 minute drive from home, so the commute is nothing.
My last job I worked from home 2 days a week and the commute was terrible, so I liked it for that but I really didn't like working from home. I like having somewhere to go every day.


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I was talking to a business owner a while ago and she had the age old complaint of "no one wants to work" as she couldn't find anyone to hire. My thoughts were that perhaps "no one wants to work FOR YOU". You can't swing a dead cat in this town without hitting a help wanted sign. There are lots of jobs and no one will take the shit ones that pay the lowest wage they are legally allowed to pay when there are better gigs around. Personally, I'm glad that workers have a choice and have more control where they can tell the boss to go get stuffed and have a different job that afternoon. Hey, it's a capitalistic system, that works both ways and for everyone, if you want your business to succeed, then you have to put something in to get something out. That includes attracting and keeping workers with pay and how you treat them. They are people, not assets.


----------



## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

I think it's a combination of all of the above. Some workers gave up, some collected CERB.
300,000 people died in 2 years, some were in the work force. Immigration slowed down. 
People in Toronto and other places sold their homes and retired off the profits. Etc...
6 months ago there was a help wanted sign on nearly every fast food place we go to for lunch at work. Most of those places still have the signs out. Bonus is our daughter got 3 really good summer job offers... unheard of! 

Flip side is we just paid $5k for a 20 year old used car, and it took weeks to find that one overpriced car that was actually well maintained and might not need repairs too soon. A few years ago, it would've been $2k max car. Crazy economy right now...


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I was talking to a business owner a while ago and she had the age old complaint of "no one wants to work" as she couldn't find anyone to hire. My thoughts were that perhaps "no one wants to work FOR YOU". You can't swing a dead cat in this town without hitting a help wanted sign. There are lots of jobs and no one will take the shit ones that pay the lowest wage they are legally allowed to pay when there are better gigs around. Personally, I'm glad that workers have a choice and have more control where they can tell the boss to go get stuffed and have a different job that afternoon. Hey, it's a capitolistic system, if you want your business to succeed, then you have to put something in to get something out. That includes attracting and keeping workers with pay and how you treat them. They are people, not assets.


I'm all for workers being treated fairly and paid what they're worth. Too much power in the hands of workers is as equally bad as too much power in the hands of the employer. 
My wife and I both work in union environments (neither of us are in the union) and some of the things I hear about and see for my self just make me shake my head. Some of the crappiest, self entitled workers are in the union. Non union workers like that are easy to get rid of. With the union you're stuck with them.


----------



## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I was talking to a business owner a while ago and she had the age old complaint of "no one wants to work" as she couldn't find anyone to hire. My thoughts were that perhaps "no one wants to work FOR YOU". You can't swing a dead cat in this town without hitting a help wanted sign. There are lots of jobs and no one will take the shit ones that pay the lowest wage they are legally allowed to pay when there are better gigs around. Personally, I'm glad that workers have a choice and have more control where they can tell the boss to go get stuffed and have a different job that afternoon. Hey, it's a capitalistic system, that works both ways and for everyone, if you want your business to succeed, then you have to put something in to get something out. That includes attracting and keeping workers with pay and how you treat them. They are people, not assets.


There was a story on NPR recently about a well liked restaurant closing up not because of bad business, but no workers. Even offering more pay they could not find workers. This was in NY state.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> Flip side is we just paid $5k for a 20 year old used car, and it took weeks to find that one overpriced car that was actually well maintained and might not need repairs too soon. A few years ago, it would've been $2k max car. Crazy economy right now...


I'm so glad that my wife and I both bought brand new cars 5 years ago. And the years through the pandemic they basically accumulated no milieage. An now with my wife working from home 2 to 3 days a week (most likely permanent) and my very short commute, we should be able to hang on to our cars for as long as it takes to over come this micro chip shortage and it becomes easy to find a car at a reasonable price.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

tomee2 said:


> There was a story on NPR recently about a well liked restaurant closing up not because of bad business, but no workers. Even offering more pay they could not find workers. This was in NY state.


We've had a few well-established restaurants in Ottawa close up recently for the very same reasons.

It's a bit of a Catch-22. You can't attract customers if you don't have decent and quick service, but if the pay structure is that it's an hourly wage plus tips, how do you get the serving staff if there aren't enough customers to provide those tips? You _could_ switch to no tips, but a much better hourly wage. but you need the customer base and profit margin to be able to afford that.

The restaurants that seem to be surviving are those that had an extensive and efficiently-preparable menu, that was easily converted to take-out. I know the shawarma place near us always has a lineup. Thy have booths too, which had been cordoned off the last two years, but as pleasant as it was to sit down and eat there, folks in all the nearby apartment buildings were quite happy to bring the same food home.


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> a lot of places are hiring now
> and not that many applicants it seems
> i don't think it's the fault of sucking on the CERB tit although maybe that tipped the balance
> people don't want to get paid a small amount to do sh!t work and they realized during the covid era that they don't have to and now it seems you can pick and choose from available jobs the employers who can't find workers gonna have to up their game either on compensation or working conditions to get people in the door
> j


I know people in retail who ended up on mental leave due to the treatment they were getting through Covid. One of them was assaulted, and another had stuff thrown around the store by customers having hissy fits over needing to line up when there was capacity limits, or being asked to wear a mask. They went through literal hell. They aren't leeches, they got sick of being abused for a dismal wage and had to come up with a new plan.

I also know a lot of people who are training or went back to school as well for the same reasons.

People shouldn't judge a bunch of people they know nothing about. Yes, some were absolutely taking advantage of those Covid payments. But it's not every person. Also, I don't think a lot of people appreciate the cost of living. Most jobs have not adjusted to that in any way.


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

mhammer said:


> We've had a few well-established restaurants in Ottawa close up recently for the very same reasons.
> 
> It's a bit of a Catch-22. You can't attract customers if you don't have decent and quick service, but if the pay structure is that it's an hourly wage plus tips, how do you get the serving staff if there aren't enough customers to provide those tips? You _could_ switch to no tips, but a much better hourly wage. but you need the customer base and profit margin to be able to afford that.
> 
> The restaurants that seem to be surviving are those that had an extensive and efficiently-preparable menu, that was easily converted to take-out. I know the shawarma place near us always has a lineup. Thy have booths too, which had been cordoned off the last two years, but as pleasant as it was to sit down and eat there, folks in all the nearby apartment buildings were quite happy to bring the same food home.


The other thing a lot of the places here did was start making prepared frozen meals. They did extremely well with that.


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

lotsa lazy people on CERB
lotsa good people on CERB , just in a bad time with sh*tty jobs/ workplaces / bosses.

for those that finally shook their heads and said " what was I thinking " and moved on to better things ... good 4 'em.
for those just coasting ( cause they can ) ... the gravy train has left the station, welcome to reality.

businesses have to realize that when you hire and fire on a daily basis ( without regards to the employees ) , eventually you run out of employees willing to endure the lack of security.... and so the business eventually goes under.

didn't have a head for business when I struck out on my own , but I learned fast and never looked back.
no employees , but paid myself a decent wage for decent work done.

life got a lot better as my own boss . but retirement is THE BEST feeling of all.

never needed CERB , never cared about CERB


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> I'm all for workers being treated fairly and paid what they're worth. Too much power in the hands of workers is as equally bad as too much power in the hands of the employer.
> My wife and I both work in union environments (neither of us are in the union) and some of the things I hear about and see for my self just make me shake my head. Some of the crappiest, self entitled workers are in the union. Non union workers like that are easy to get rid of. With the union you're stuck with them.


Yes, I am with you there. Unions started as a reaction to conditions. That being way too much power and greed in the hands of employers. I met and talked with Victor Ruether who was there on the line in the times the companies called in the police with the billy clubs swinging. It was that bad in those days. 

These days the violence has been less, but not the abuse. Look at corporate profits statements and a few other reports and you can see record profits over the last 2 years, not much of it going to employees, but rather things like buying back their own stocks and lining pockets of executives and shareholders. Some to the extent that even machinery/equipment was not maintained to keep the long term viability of the companies stable. Greed seems to have no bounds with some corporations, there is no such thing as "enough", and the only thing they are concerned about is a bigger dividend for the next quarter, even if than means killing the company in the process.


----------



## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

torndownunit said:


> I know people in retail who ended up on mental leave due to the treatment they were getting through Covid. One of them was assaulted, and another had stuff thrown around the store by customers having hissy fits over needing to line up when there was capacity limits, or being asked to wear a mask. They went through literal hell. They aren't leeches, they got sick of being abused for a dismal wage and had to come up with a new plan.
> 
> I also know a lot of people who are training or went back to school as well for the same reasons.
> 
> People shouldn't judge a bunch of people they know nothing about. Yes, some were absolutely taking advantage of those Covid payments. But it's not every person. Also, I don't think a lot of people appreciate the cost of living. Most jobs have not adjusted to that in any way.


My daughter worked at a garden centre last spring.... for 3 weeks. they had to hire a security guard because of the abuse directed towards a bunch of high school aged kids watering plants and helping people load potted plants into their cars. Seriously, people showed up each day to yell at people about wearing masks. They were convinced it was some sort if targetted action ...
My daughter quit.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Yes, I am with you there. Unions started as a reaction to conditions. That being way too much power and greed in the hands of employers. I met and talked with Victor Ruether who was there on the line in the times the companies called in the police with the billy clubs swinging. It was that bad in those days.
> 
> These days the violence has been less, but not the abuse. Look at corporate profits statements and a few other reports and you can see record profits over the last 2 years, not much of it going to employees, but rather things like buying back their own stocks and lining pockets of executives and shareholders. Some to the extent that even machinery/equipment was not maintained to keep the long term viability of the companies stable. Greed seems to have no bounds with some corporations, there is no such thing as "enough", and the only thing they are concerned about is a bigger dividend for the next quarter, even if than means killing the company in the process.


I just don't look at it that way. Workers have no claim to company profits. They work for what they agree to. They certainly don't partake in losses should the company have a bad year. Workers don't have risk. They get paid what they are promised and are free to negotiate what that is or work some where else. 
If I hire someone to do yard work for me they aren't entitled to a piece of my house. Especially this year as I've worked very hard to wipe out my mortgage and I got an amazing raise to start this year. Doesn't mean anyone I hire shares that. Corporations jobs are to take care of that bottom line and maximize profits. Workers jobs are to provide their services and be paid what they're satisfied with. I don't need a union for that. I am not bitter when I see a worker that has not invested in their education beyond grade 12 making close to what I make and I don't feel sorry if they're only making 50% of what I make.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

tomee2 said:


> My daughter worked at a garden centre last spring.... for 3 weeks. they had to hire a security guard because of the abuse directed towards a bunch of high school aged kids watering plants and helping people load potted plants into their cars. Seriously, people showed up each day to yell at people about wearing masks. They were convinced it was some sort if targetted action ...
> My daughter quit.


Covid definitly brought out some very interesting segments in our population. 

I never quite understood folks rage. I find rage is really, really low on my list of optionable responses to things. It isnt usually my first.

Sorry for your daughter's experience, hopefully she can shake that off and realize it isnt the norm.


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

guitarman2 said:


> I am not bitter when I see a worker that has not invested in their education beyond grade 12 making close to what I make


one was hired and was making more than me at one business.
when I queried management about it , I was given " be thankful you have a job "
wrong words to the wrong person ... 
they didn't have me for long afterwards , but another company did ( with a 10K increase in pay )

and as for that new employee ? they were given my old job and couldn't do it. 
the old company? ..... defunct is a good word to use.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

oldjoat said:


> one was hired and was making more than me at one business.
> when I queried management about it , I was given " be thankful you have a job "
> wrong words to the wrong person ...
> they didn't have me for long afterwards , but another company did ( with a 10K increase in pay )
> ...


I miss the enjoyment that came from working for "the man" as it were. I have always been under the impression of two particular trains of thought in my life

I was looking for a job when I found this one
.... so there goes that thankful bit.

You need me more than I need you
...see above. You didn't hire me because you didn't need employees.

Some of the greatest days of my life were just walking away from bunk jobs. Midshift... days before, it didn't matter, it was just those brief moments in time your mind realized you are not in fact shackled and are free to seek out new life and new civilizations... wait a minute, thats star trek.

The best was working at a call center, so basically hell on earth. A buddy called me and said "hey we're headed up to Halifax for the weekend you wanna come" my response was hell yeah... just hold on a second while I go quit my job. I was at work at the time 

The point I try and illustrate with my flippant attitude towards employment is that no matter what, it has to come second. You always come first. There are times in life (most times in fact) where gainful employment is probably your number one concern being the nature of our society but I'll be dammed if its every going to ruin my life.


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> Workers don't have risk. They get paid what they are promised and are free to negotiate what that is or work some where else.



Very true, and that's why some places are finding it hard to find and keep workers. You have to treat people like people in order to succeed at attracting them and holding on to them. If you don't, your bussiness (assuming you have to hire) will fail. There is a lot of investment in hiring a training someone new in a lot of cases. Just make sure you take care of ALL your investments. Happy employees don't leave.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Again, no business's success and sustainability should be predicated on treating staff like garbage, and/or compromising client safety. If it does, then you started out with a lousy business plan.

As for staff abuse, that played a significant role in the shutting down of business in downtown Ottawa during the truck convoy occupation. I'm sure there were some very pleasant jovial people whose objection to vaccine mandates had at least a smidgen of rationality and reasoning to it. But it didn't take very many mask-refusing, rule-breaking louts at the Rideau Centre, By Ward Market, and other downtown business areas to prompt store owners to close up shop because their staff were saying "Why do I have to risk putting up with being harassed and assaulted for minimum wage?".

As for police swinging billy clubs, interesting anecdote....

A dozen or more years back, there was yet another PSAC strike. Federal workers in that union were picketing buildings at the Tunney's Pasture campus here. Some of the picketers were fellow union members who were bused in from Montreal. Now, what few in the crowd seemed to be aware of is that labour laws, with respect to picketing, are a little different in Quebec and Ontario. In Quebec, apparently, picketers are allowed to express themselves closer to the building than they can in Ontario. I forget if the police in attendance were OPP, RCMP or simply municipal police,, but they all seemed to be unaware of Ontario/Quebec differences as well. When the picketers came closer to the building, this was interpreted by law enforcement as an infringement of the law, and they pushed back. When the Montreal picketers saw this, they interpreted it as their own picketing rights being infringed on. As they used to say in the TV Guide, "billy-club mayhem ensues".


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Very true, and that's why some places are finding it hard to find and keep workers. You have to treat people like people in order to succeed at attracting them and holding on to them. If you don't, your bussiness (assuming you have to hire) will fail. There is a lot of investment in hiring a training someone new in a lot of cases. Just make sure you take care of ALL your investments. Happy employees don't leave.


Yes I think some employers are going to have to improve things to get and hold on to employees.
There are some industries that are notorious for bad treatment of employess. 2 of which are restaurant workers and retail. When my youngest daughter was in high school she worked part time at Giant Tiger. She was an excellent worker but she and other employees were always in the line of fire if certain managers were in a bad mood and just wanted to take out anger on them in an unprofessional way. Add that customers that love to abuse workers. As far as I'm concerned they don't get paid enough for what they put up with. But if restaurant workers and retail get paid more it won't come out of the owners pockets.


----------



## GuitarT (Nov 23, 2010)

tomee2 said:


> Flip side is we just paid $5k for a 20 year old used car, and it took weeks to find that one overpriced car that was actually well maintained and might not need repairs too soon. A few years ago, it would've been $2k max car. Crazy economy right now...


I was looking to get rid of my wife's 14 year old mini van last week. It still ran okay but was in pretty rough shape and needed a fair bit of work to safety (lots of rust). My first thought was to take it to the wreckers but my mechanic said I could probably get $2k for if I tried to sell it. I listed it "as is" with full disclosure of what it needed to make it road worthy again. My ad got 61 inquiries in the first three days including several sight unseen cash offers. I ended up getting $2,400 for it. Five years ago it would have been a $750 as is special. Crazy used car market right now.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Two of the smartest people I've ever met in the area of studying employee turnover are Terry MItchell and Thom Lee at Univ. Washington in Seattle. They wisely note that everyone who leaves job A for job B always forfeits something. It could be the work itself, more favorable hours, pleasant work colleagues, a shorter or less onerous commute, etc. There's always *something* that kept them there past the first hour, that they were kind of sorry to say goodbye to.

Conversely, as much as the received wisdom is that people quit because of lousy bosses/managers, a large number leave jobs they like, with decent bosses, for other jobs, for reasons that can have little to do with pay, supervisor quality, or any of the annoying parts you'd suspect. It could be something like "My daughter has to switch to another school with a specific program, and I have to drive her there in the complete opposite direction of work". In other words, a life-related inconvenience that magically disappears when one switches from employer A to employer B. It could be a better-paying offer, you weren't really looking for, but fell into your lap. It's complicated but the gist of it is that people don't simply leave job X for job Y because X was awful, the management, pay, and coworkers were awful, and Y is everything you ever wanted in a job. There _will_ be costs to leaving X and taking Y. All jobs have "push" factors that drive you away, "pull factors" that draw you to them, and "sticky" factors that make it comfortable to stay. The job one stays at, or leaves, is a function of the sum total of all those factors. In fairness, the "sticky" factors - e.g., coworker friendships, seeing the impact of one's effort on clients or the general public - are generally ones that take a bit of time to establish. Small wonder that the greatest risk of turnover is generally from recent hires, for whom there is pretty much only push and pull, and not much sticky.


----------



## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

mhammer said:


> Again, no business's success and sustainability should be predicated on treating staff like garbage, and/or compromising client safety. If it does, then you started out with a lousy business plan.


Unfortunately, this seems to be the predominant business model for many retail and service employers predicated on a constant supply of cheap labour that turns over frequently because of low wages, part-time hours, no benefits, no job security and treated like cattle not valued employees all for maximizing the owners' profitability. Take away that stream of resources and those businesses crumble.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

ZeroGravity said:


> Unfortunately, this seems to be the predominant business model for many retail and service employers predicated on a constant supply of cheap labour that turns over frequently because of low wages, part-time hours, no benefits, no job security and treated like cattle not valued employees all for maximizing the owners' profitability. Take away that stream of resources and those businesses crumble.


Speaking to retail and hospitality\restaurant in general, I don't think the margin of profits is any where near a corporation. If restaurant or retail wages go up then so does the cost of those services and products for all of us, affecting the cost of living.


----------



## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> Speaking to retail and hospitality\restaurant in general, I don't think the margin of profits is any where near a corporation. If restaurant or retail wages go up then so does the cost of those services and products for all of us, affecting the cost of living.


They run on thin margins, high volume model in a highly competitive price-sensitive environment. Disrupt either of those as we have seen and they are headed for closure. A major factor is labour cost which everyone, consumers alike who love their cheap prices, depend on at the expense of under-valued workers.


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Very true, and that's why some places are finding it hard to find and keep workers. You have to treat people like people in order to succeed at attracting them and holding on to them. If you don't, your bussiness (assuming you have to hire) will fail. There is a lot of investment in hiring a training someone new in a lot of cases. Just make sure you take care of ALL your investments. Happy employees don't leave.


This is what people who aren't currently in the work force don't get. The "Work hard and you will get ahead" philosophy just doesn't widely exist now. Everyone needs service and retail workers, but people treat them like they are disposable garbage. There are no rewards. And, and good education can mean dick all nowadays as far as improving that and moving to a new job. It's really grim out there. Seeing that there are a ton of jobs doesn't mean those jobs can provide anyone a living wage or any form of job security.


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> My daughter worked at a garden centre last spring.... for 3 weeks. they had to hire a security guard because of the abuse directed towards a bunch of high school aged kids watering plants and helping people load potted plants into their cars. Seriously, people showed up each day to yell at people about wearing masks. They were convinced it was some sort if targetted action ...
> My daughter quit.


I am not exaggerating saying my one friend ended up with PTSD. She was the manager in a pet food store and had to call the cops on a guy trashing the store and trying to get at her while she was protecting herself behind the counter. The reason? The guy was pissed about having to line up at the door when the capacity limits were in effect. This was after several verbal confrontations with other customers over masks and capacity limits. She just broke. 

My sister in law is a respiratory therapist, and the hospital had to deal with people running into the emergency department screaming with their phone cameras on to prove Covid was a hoax (not understanding the ICU patients are not in the emergency department clearly). 

It's hard to believe how awful people can be.


----------



## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

torndownunit said:


> There are no rewards. And, and good education can mean dick all nowadays as far as improving that. It's really grim out there.


The days of an almost guaranteed job after a post secondary education are long past. I only need to look at my son and many of his friends and classmates that are un or under employed. He has two degrees, the second after going back because he couldn’t find a job after the first, fully bilingual, well mannered, reasonably worldly and only a handful of calls after literally hundreds of resumes and applications. He works retail to get by.


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)




----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)




----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


>


Not everyone is cut out to work a trade. I agree that trades are great careers. I wish they pushed them when I was in high school, but it was almost shunned as a career. It's not a solution to think everyone can do that kind of work though.


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

ZeroGravity said:


> The days of an almost guaranteed job after a post secondary education are long past. I only need to look at my son and many of his friends and classmates that are un or under employed. He has two degrees, the second after going back because he couldn’t find a job after the first, fully bilingual, well mannered, reasonably worldly and only a handful of calls after literally hundreds of resumes and applications. He works retail to get by.


The thing I am noticing is that depending on what someone went to school for, they are more in demand in the States. I have had quite a few people I know (or their kids) take this route. The wage difference for some tech jobs is crazy.


----------



## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

torndownunit said:


> The thing I am noticing is that depending on what someone went to school for, they are more in demand in the States. I have had quite a few people I know (or their kids) take this route. The wage difference for some tech jobs is crazy.


Tech is as fickle other sectors. I’ve been through cycles of lean and good, several employers not always at my choosing, and at the end of it, I’m still just a number towards the bottom line. In that respect, it’s no different than a trade, construction, manufacturing, or mining for example. When it’s good, you’re on top of the world, when it’s not, you could be out the door.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


>


That guy on the right is me, although it would read "Spent years on the road as a musician, at the age of 34 went to tech school for new career". I taught at the school for a few years then went out in to the industry. So from the time I entered the tech school I had never been unemployed.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

ZeroGravity said:


> Tech is as fickle other sectors. I’ve been through cycles of lean and good, several employers not always at my choosing, and at the end of it, I’m still just a number towards the bottom line. In that respect, it’s no different than a trade, construction, manufacturing, or mining for example. When it’s good, you’re on top of the world, when it’s not, you could be out the door.


I've had 3 jobs in IT. 8 years at the first, 15 at the second and 3 at my current with no unemployment in between. I only have to make it 3 more years to retirement age but as long as my health holds up I plan to go 6 more years. My wife technically won't be able to retire for another 7 years. I like my job so no point sitting home by my self. 
The company is doing well so crossing my fingers it stays that way till I'm out. 
It was scary at the end of my last job. They went down hill, lost some major clients and eventually went bankrupt. Luckily I got out just before that happened.


----------



## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

_*Interesting history related in this KapnKrunch Story:*_

A kid was getting a degree in Chemistry. He didn't like it and wanted to quit. His Dad told him: "God has ordained that you get outa bed and go to work... your job is attending class. And always finish what you start!" The kid got the degree, but taught guitar until he got married. With a family to support he took an electrical apprenticeship. He loved the construction life, but health problems weakened him. With a journeyman certification AND a Bachelor of Science he easily snagged a job at a community college where he made more money in half the time and came home every night.

Moral of the Story: *Get outa bed, go to work and always finish what you start*. It's that simple for everyone, never mind the details, exceptions and analysis.


----------



## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> So from the time I entered the tech school I had never been unemployed.


Ditto. 

[Self-employed for twelve years and then went back to the trade when I had enough.]


----------



## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

As a manager of people, I can tell you I (I won't speak for other managers, in other fields, and businesses, but) have never asked someone to do something for free. EVER! If I have an open position, I am looking for someone to fill it. I will compensate them. I do not know if it is a "handsome compensation" or an insulting one. I can't tell anymore. A whole other story. What I do expect is a full, honest days work. I am paying you, you should do something to earn it. A job is not a gift. Yes, I probably do need you more than you need me, but that should not hold me hostage to lower output. 
My boss measures how successful I am by carrying out the companies wishes through you. It's not all that glamourous. But I have bills, and I like to be productive. So I have a job. If you choose not to work, that is 100% on you. But I will not pay you not to work. 
When you have a job, show up, do it the best you can, do it safely, and go home. I'd like it if you cared and had an interest, and I will do my best to actively engage you to have that interest, but I can't actually compensate you more for it. Unless your reward is working somewhere you do not hate. I do not hate my job, but I've had plenty where I did.


----------



## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> I've had 3 jobs in IT. 8 years at the first, 15 at the second and 3 at my current with no unemployment in between. I only have to make it 3 more years to retirement age but as long as my health holds up I plan to go 6 more years. My wife technically won't be able to retire for another 7 years. I like my job so no point sitting home by my self.
> The company is doing well so crossing my fingers it stays that way till I'm out.
> It was scary at the end of my last job. They went down hill, lost some major clients and eventually went bankrupt. Luckily I got out just before that happened.


I started in tech when it was a good but not great job and progressed through 8’ish average years until the boom happened and they couldn’t keep people because someone else was throwing bags of money at them. I still don’t make as much as I did in 2000. Then came the crash where fortunately I had enough experience to keep me employed albeit in several 15-18 month stints but still being laid off a few times. Then onto my current where it’s been over 10 years and now less than a year to retiring. In that time I saw a lot of people come and go and in lean times leave the sector altogether. I’ve been lucky, longest I’ve been out of work was 3 months, shortest 10 days. I think it is pointless to argue white vs. blue collar or trade school vs college vs university because nothing is recession proof and all go through good and bad times. Going into a job that doesn’t interest you simply because it pays well is a recipe for a long unhappy, unfulfilling career.


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)




----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


>


I get the analogy. But personally I don't give a "$15 an hour" option. 
I got asked in the interview for my current job what I'd like to make. I told them and they paid what I asked without hesitation. It was far more than the job I was leaving but I somehow thought I under priced my self. The president of the company came to me last Christmas on my last day before starting holidays and gave me the biggest raise I'd ever had. 16% and said "we always thought you were underpaid a little and wanted to correct that".
I had considered asking for a raise for a while but I'm not good with that type of aggressiveness. So I'm glad I didn't have to.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

guitarman2 said:


> I get the analogy. But personally I don't give a "$15 an hour" option.
> I got asked in the interview for my current job what I'd like to make. I told them and they paid what I asked without hesitation. It was far more than the job I was leaving but I somehow thought I under priced my self. The president of the company came to me last Christmas on my last day before starting holidays and gave me the biggest raise I'd ever had. 16% and said "we always thought you were underpaid a little and wanted to correct that".
> I had considered asking for a raise for a while but I'm not good with that type of aggressiveness. So I'm glad I didn't have to.


It is always nice when you can mange to get what you want while still maintaining some decorum. 

I have always set my own prices for service. It is above the market rate. When folks tell me it is higher than the next guy, I just say call that guy. Has to be one of my favorite things to hear in industy.

"I got someone who will do it for half that price"

.... then why in the hell did you call me??


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I don't know what's going on in the world today. Jobs are to be found easy, so it can't be lack of opportunity, but people are dying more than ever from drug and alcohol abuse. I know enough that getting into the trap of addiction is to, in part, releive some sort of pain or anguish. I just don't know what it is that is hurting people so much that they find the need to escape somehow.
A little off topic I know, but it is related. Lots of places want people, but some people just don't feel wanted?


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I don't know what's going on in the world today. Jobs are to be found easy, so it can't be lack of opportunity, but people are dying more than ever from drug and alcohol abuse. I know enough that getting into the trap of addiction is to, in part, releive some sort of pain or anguish. I just don't know what it is that is hurting people so much that they find the need to escape somehow.
> A little off topic I know, but it is related. Lots of places want people, but some people just don't feel wanted?


My son was in a car accident when he was 16 (someone ran over his foot) and he was prescribed pain medication for which he got addicted. Further complicated with being diagnosed Schizophrenic. My wife and I tried to manage his medication for many years. He is currently on the street at the age of 33, homeless and still manages to get fentanyl\opiates. We feel helpless. We try to help but its near impossible as he is hostile and aggressive mainly against his mother. We feed him when he comes around and we let him stay the night when the winter nights are not survivable and the shelters have kicked him out due to being unruly.


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I don't know what's going on in the world today. Jobs are to be found easy, so it can't be lack of opportunity, but people are dying more than ever from drug and alcohol abuse. I know enough that getting into the trap of addiction is to, in part, releive some sort of pain or anguish. I just don't know what it is that is hurting people so much that they find the need to escape somehow.
> A little off topic I know, but it is related. Lots of places want people, but some people just don't feel wanted?


Between killing yourself working a job with wages that barely allow you to live never mind afford a home or anything to treat yourself...or giving up killing yourself with drugs... A lot of people will pick the latter. People are hurting because they don't see a future for themselves. Some have no support at all. For some people it motivates them to do anything they can to break out of it. But many just lose the battle. 

I know this will just bring up the argument from people that it's always been like this and that people just need to do better. I can only say it sure as hell hasn't been this bad while I've been around. And one thing that makes it worse is that drugs are easier to get then at anytime in my life, and they are nasty drugs. Meth and Fentynol are a massive problem in so many small towns.


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

When people jump from job to job, are they considering how that looks on their resume?


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

laristotle said:


> When people jump from job to job, are they considering how that looks on their resume?


It is no wonder they cannot find a job they like if they haven't learned how to lie on a resume.


----------



## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

laristotle said:


> When people jump from job to job, are they considering how that looks on their resume?


I see stuff like that all the time.


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

laristotle said:


> When people jump from job to job, are they considering how that looks on their resume?


Right now for a lot of jobs I don't think it even matters. Even places that factored that in previously would probably hire even a person just had even some of the qualifications that they need.


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

the old fall back ... I was offered a much better job and compensation , 
I approached management and they couldn't match it, we parted ways and I moved on.

or if there were many short term jobs , just leave them off the resume and say you took a sabbatical during that period.


----------



## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

[


guitarman2 said:


> on the street at the age of 33,


I read your post. I am sad. Best wishes for something good in a situation that I can only imagine.


----------



## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

laristotle said:


> When people jump from job to job, are they considering how that looks on their resume?


I look at that. I scratch my head if I just see jumping without growth or (a chance of personal) growth.


----------



## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Mark Brown said:


> It is no wonder they cannot find a job they like if they haven't learned how to lie on a resume.


Yeah, I get some real prize winners in that regard; claim they worked at some local firm that doesn't exist or, if it does, then when you call their last ER no one there has heard of them.

The presumption is that employers are evil but people have left my firm for better wages in large firms and then have asked to come back because they didn't like the large firm pressure cooker environment. One of my assistants has come and gone 3 times and she holds the record for lasting half a day at a new job before calling me at noon to ask if she can come back...lol. I said yeah, see you tomorrow.

I've been self employed pretty much since I finished art college way back but I had to drive a truck for about 5 years to get the money to go back to school for a mid-life career change. 

I have my own business, I like what I do, I work with great people and I have no intention of retiring; if people don't like that they can fuck off .. lol


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Wardo said:


> Yeah, I get some real prize winners in that regard; claim they worked at some local firm that doesn't exist or, if it does, then when you call their last ER no one there has heard of them.
> 
> The presumption is that employers are evil but people have left my firm for better wages in large firms and then have asked to come back because they didn't like the large firm pressure cooker environment. One of my assistants has come and gone 3 times and she holds the record for lasting half a day at a new job before calling me at noon to ask if she can come back...lol. I said yeah, see you tomorrow.
> 
> ...


The idea of lying on a resume is unbelievable to me. I know people do it, but I never could. Any decent job I've had the places followed up on my previous employment references. Plus, with some of the past jobs, they would know pretty damn quick if I was lying about my qualifications.


----------



## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

torndownunit said:


> The idea of lying on a resume is unbelievable to me. I know people do it, but I never could. Any decent job I've had the places followed up on my previous employment references. Plus, with some of the past jobs, they would know pretty damn quick if I was lying about my qualifications.


We get some that are bizarre.

We hired a guy a good few years ago who had done a masters at a local law school but I was concerned about his english so I asked to see some of his course work from the masters; it seemed pretty standard academic work when I reviewed it. Later on it became apparent that his writing was terrible and he could not possibly have written the stuff that he showed to us. He moved on and got a teaching position; I was pleased to provide a glowing reference because the thought of this guy teaching was fucking hilarious and too good to pass up .. lol


----------



## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Meanwhile, in Silicon Valley massive cuts to job perks are happening. You actually have to park your own car now if you work at Google. Even do your own laundry.

Meta employees left to do their own laundry as perks get cut

These are definitely strange times we are living in. For once I’m glad I’m old.


----------



## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Sneaky said:


> Meanwhile, in Silicon Valley massive cuts to job perks are happening. You actually have to park your own car now if you work at Google. Even do your own laundry.
> 
> Meta employees left to do their own laundry as perks get cut
> 
> These are definitely strange times we are living in. For once I’m glad I’m old.


From the outside, these look like perks and were at first but eventually they have come to represent another way to tilt work life balance towards work. Take care of certain tasks means those hours were to be spent working, not free time off. Shopify here is very guilty of it and a culture of shaming staff into 60+ hour work weeks as “normal”


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

Sneaky said:


> For once I’m glad I’m old


not me , but I'll take each day as it comes (for as many as there are)
I sound like a bowl of rice krispies in the morning.


----------



## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

ZeroGravity said:


> From the outside, these look like perks and were at first but eventually they have come to represent another way to tilt work life balance towards work. Take care of certain tasks means those hours were to be spent working, not free time off. Shopify here is very guilty of it and a culture of shaming staff into 60+ hour work weeks as “normal”


I’d rather put in 40, and wash my own cargo shorts and golf shirts.


----------



## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

oldjoat said:


> not me , but I'll take each day as it comes (for as many as there are)
> I sound like a bowl of rice krispies in the morning.


Yeah, me too. I still love waking up every day but these days I can’t help but think this whole planet Earth thing may not end so well. I hope I’m wrong.


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

one shop was "under the gun" and the company tried to insist that employees work overtime without claiming it 
the company offered to bank it for them for future time off with pay 
when they approached me , i said "shall we call CRA and see if they agree?" they backed off.
the handwriting was on the wall that the company wasn't going to make it , time to say so long guys .
they folded 8 months later, and all that banked overtime? , yeah , nobody got a cent except for those in upper management and their golden handshakes.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Wardo said:


> The presumption is that employers are evil but people have left my firm for better wages in large firms and then have asked to come back because they didn't like the large firm pressure cooker environment. One of my assistants has come and gone 3 times and she holds the record for lasting half a day at a new job before calling me at noon to ask if she can come back...lol. I said yeah, see you tomorrow.


That is awesome!! You are right, and a point I have tried to illustrate myself. Money is hardly everything and for the most part I do not really find it my driving force.


----------



## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Sneaky said:


> I’d rather put in 40, and wash my own cargo shorts and golf shirts.


Me too, I often ran afoul of my management over the years because I didn’t regularly spend evenings and weekends at work. I was told that as a “professional” it was part of job. Sorry, you rent my time 40 hours a week. I never walked away leaving work undone, but I never stayed late to “show my dedication” mostly because at the end of the day, it didn’t matter when lay offs happened


----------



## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I've had a real good time and maybe seen the best of it in the west; if it ended tomorrow I couldn't complain but I would anyway .. lol


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

Sneaky said:


> this whole planet Earth thing may not end so well. I hope I’m wrong.


just remember , earth doesn't need any of us .
it was here before us and will continue after us.
the dinosaurs lasted a lot longer than us , 
was hit by a really big rock and still managed to be productive again. 

if we scr*w it up, just give it a thousand or so years and no one will ever notice it happened.


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

ZeroGravity said:


> I often ran afoul of my management over the years


one place wanted everyone in a suit
""a suit makes the man" they'd say 
the rest of the saying was " but if you put a monkey in a suit , you just have a well dressed monkey"
they tended to hire monkeys for management .

another place I applied to required "a tie" at all times 
when questioned if it was a deal breaker , was it worth 10k more for me to wear a tie? They admitted it wasn't .

I negotiated that I would wear a tie IF I was ordered to, but it would incur a $10,000. penalty for them.
I would hang a clip on tie on the work station wall "just in case" .
sure enough , another supervisor informed me I would have to put on a tie or go home
told him to check with head office first , it might get expensive.
1/2 hour later he came back and said "it's OK , skip the tie".


----------



## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

guitarman2 said:


> Back in the 80's a drummer friend of mine who's day job was a mechanic bought a nice house paid for from his weekend gig money.


I think that right now, the economy has a lot of people thrown off. Things looked like they would be obtainable for a lot of folks but then we all get hit with a really competitive and hostile market to start out in.

Thats why as much as I tend to not agree with free loaders, I can understand why a lot of people are feeling defeated or taking some time to reboot.


----------



## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Always12AM said:


> ... we all get hit with a really competitive and hostile market to start out in.


If this place had been run a bit better and less reliance on the idea that unicorn farts and sunny ways gonna save the day then that might not have happened. The country seems to have the resources to be self sufficient and it's parked beside the US economy but it keeps shooting itself in the foot.


----------



## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

oldjoat said:


> just remember , earth doesn't need any of us .
> it was here before us and will continue after us.
> the dinosaurs lasted a lot longer than us ,
> was hit by a really big rock and still managed to be productive again.
> ...


I like the line a Steve Bruton song…
This old worlds gonna shake all the fleas off it’s back.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Always12AM said:


> I think that right now, the economy has a lot of people thrown off. Things looked like they would be obtainable for a lot of folks but then we all get hit with a really competitive and hostile market to start out in.
> 
> Thats why as much as I tend to not agree with free loaders, I can understand why a lot of people are feeling defeated or taking some time to reboot.


Lucky for me, I was never encouraged. Came from a hard life, saw that as a pretty shitty option and decided it wasn't for me and did what I could to avoid those downfalls. 

You might be on to something here with this idea. So many people were handed the thought of the world on a silver platter they forgot that it isn't a right they are born with but a state that is possible. 

I still can hardly fathom what must be an extremely hard situation for a lot of people starting right now. When I moved out to BC 15? years ago, I remember looking for an apartment, I was making 24.75 an hour and when someone told me they wanted $675 I said get stuffed and lived in my car instead. I lived in that 92 civic hatchback for 10 months until I had a down payment saved for a house. That same apartment now would be between 1400-1800 dollars and minimum wage is still only 15 bucks. That is a hard pill to swallow. Home prices have done about the same. When we were first looking, a Place in Nanaimo that we deemed too "expensive" was around 320K, that same place today is going for around 680K. It is bananas. I won't say I was lucky, I put in a lot of effort. I worked 8 days a week for just about 7 years, building a business and paying off every debt to my name. It was not easy, it was a lot of sacrifice but on the other side of it, I would say worth it. The goal was to be mortgage free by 35 and keep my wife at home with the kids because that is what she wanted and what we both thought was best.

The world never was particularly an easy place, but the golden age is long over and this is where we are at now. People can still have the things they want, they just have to work for them. Working at Starbucks or the Sunglasses Hut at the mall are probably not the best vocational choices and if people do not have marketable skills or talents what did they think was going to happen?


----------



## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Mark Brown said:


> I lived in that 92 civic hatchback for 10 months ..


This is why I always have a truck. Might not need it's capacity every day but more room if I have to live in it when the shit hits the fan and I can take more stuff with me if I have to slide out of town at 3 am .. lol


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Wardo said:


> This is why I always have a truck. Might not need it's capacity every day but more room if I have to live in it when the shit hits the fan and I can take more stuff with me if I have to slide out of town at 3 am .. lol


That would have been a much better option. So picture this.... in that car I had:

Acoustic guitar
12" Head Djembe
12" Sealed box sub-woofer
10" Sealed box sub-woofer
15" Laptop
Tools
All my clothes
A wok, propane hibachi and accoutrements 
..... and somehow made that work.

Now I have a 170 wheel base high box sprinter. I am future proofing


----------



## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

The Sprinter get you through the Apocalypse no problem .. lol


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

and you can run it on any veg oil , no gas required .


----------



## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

Wardo said:


> If this place had been run a bit better and less reliance on the idea that unicorn farts and sunny ways gonna save the day then that might not have happened. The country seems to have the resources to be self sufficient and it's parked beside the US economy but it keeps shooting itself in the foot.


I am competing for resources and jobs against people with man buns who wear sandals and think they are investors because they convinced their dad to invest in their 2023 Dodge Ram.

I’m afraid to even shake hands with most men my age now. Might break right off their fuckin arm. I’m not too concerned about what the future holds if it’s me VS Muskoka Ken and Barbie. Eventually their parents will die and nobody will be around to pay for their CBD muffins or pay the lease on their vegan soap store lol.


----------



## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Always12AM said:


> I’m afraid to even shake hands with most men my age now. Might break right off their fuckin arm.


That and a lot of them gonna have the Monkey Dick Virus pretty soon best to avoid any contact.


----------



## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

Wardo said:


> That and a lot of them gonna have the Monkey Dick Virus pretty soon best to avoid any contact.


If a man’s shorts don’t have at least 8 pockets and go a minimum of 3 inches beyond his knee, I assume that they have a low grade fever and just finished milking some Portuguese guy.


----------



## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Always12AM said:


> If a man’s shorts don’t have at least 8 pockets and go a minimum of 3 inches beyond his knee, I assume that they have a low grade fever and just finished milking some Portuguese guy.


... lol


----------



## keto (May 23, 2006)

ZeroGravity said:


> From the outside, these look like perks and were at first but eventually they have come to represent another way to tilt work life balance towards work. Take care of certain tasks means those hours were to be spent working, not free time off. Shopify here is very guilty of it and a culture of shaming staff into 60+ hour work weeks as “normal”


But, for a young growing company, I would very much expect it’s full of ambitious young folk looking to get ahead and prepared to do the time, is that wrong? Sounds to me more like mismatched expectations, bye bye.



ZeroGravity said:


> Me too, I often ran afoul of my management over the years because I didn’t regularly spend evenings and weekends at work. I was told that as a “professional” it was part of job. Sorry, you rent my time 40 hours a week. I never walked away leaving work undone, but I never stayed late to “show my dedication” mostly because at the end of the day, it didn’t matter when lay offs happened


I’ll give you this one, I got lucky and seem to have good job security with a similar but flexible when, rarely, needed work. I’ll answer the company phone almost 24/7, but it’s people calling to arrange to pay past dues, so I certainly consider that worthy of my time.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

oldjoat said:


> one place wanted everyone in a suit
> ""a suit makes the man" they'd say
> the rest of the saying was " but if you put a monkey in a suit , you just have a well dressed monkey"
> they tended to hire monkeys for management .
> ...


I refer to ties as "the male burqua". It is a restrictive article of clothing intended to convey "propriety". That is, wear one and you're now "respectable". Don't put one on, and you're just riff-raff scum.

It's one of the reasons why I never pursued the management track, or politics for that matter. I mean, there ARE places where parliamentarians don't wear ties and are free to govern the nation in a short-sleeved shirt or even a dashiki, but I wouldn't want to live there.


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

the original tie came from the great plains of europe and asia.
a RAG tied around the neck to wipe the sweat and dirt away.
converted to the cravat by the french for the same purpose
then endorsed by the brits , later turned into the regimental tie to tell troops apart

so the tie is really nothing more than a sweat and nose wipe.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

I can honestly say that I do not own one, more of a bandana guy.


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

oldjoat said:


> so the tie is really nothing more than a sweat and nose wipe.


and I forgot to add ----- a leash , just like a good dog , good dog, good dog.


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

At my last place I was actually employed I had enough seniority to have 5 weeks of vacation time. I took a 2 week block in the summer and every friday before a long weekend. When manditory overtime came it threw a wrench in the gears because I couldn't be mandated if the day previous was a vacation day. When asked "why don't you like working overtime?", I replyed "I don't even like working regular time". During one week they were asking people to work overtime and one of the managers asked if I was going to come in. Of course I said no. The manager asked why so I said "you don't need to know why, all you need to know is that the guy who isn't here will be me.". They loved me there...lol.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Jim DaddyO said:


> When asked "why don't you like working overtime?", I replyed "I don't even like working regular time"


YES, one million time yes. I like my job, I enjoy what I do... but there are probably an infinite amount of things I would rather be doing. I work to live, not live to work. 

What the hell is mandatory overtime anyhow? How did that become a thing?



Jim DaddyO said:


> The manager asked why so I said "you don't need to know why, all you need to know is that the guy who isn't here will be me."


That made me smile too if we are being honest. It is none of your business what I do outside of your business. SO pffffft to you.


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Mark Brown said:


> What the hell is mandatory overtime anyhow? How did that become a thing?


An employer can require an employee to work 8 hours of overtime per week. They even get it in writing from the gubment. At least in Ontario that's the rules.

If it were up to me the work week would be 32 hours (4 eight hour shifts) and wages would be adjusted so the worker wouldn't lose any money. Labour laws may be changing to a 4 day work week. Employers are actually requesting it. There were a few stories about it, this is just the first one that came up on Google.

Ontario to mandate all businesses switch to 4 day-work week starting in 2023


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

oldjoat said:


> and I forgot to add ----- a leash , just like a good dog , good dog, good dog.


good frog, good frog


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Jim DaddyO said:


> An employer can require an employee to work 8 hours of overtime per week. They even get it in writing from the gubment. At least in Ontario that's the rules.
> 
> If it were up to me the work week would be 32 hours (4 eight hour shifts) and wages would be adjusted so the worker wouldn't lose any money. Labour laws may be changing to a 4 day work week. Employers are actually requesting it. There were a few stories about it, this is just the first one that came up on Google.
> 
> Ontario to mandate all businesses switch to 4 day-work week starting in 2023


There has been a lot of action on that in Europe, I want to say the story I read was from France most recently but I could be mistaken. It probably isn't the stupidest idea as it seems like it increases productivity. I would even be in favor of four ten hour shifts, but then again it is all moot to me. I told myself when I paid off my house I would knock back to a four day work week because I can but then I got sucked into a mega project that has come to be the demise of my happy. I can assure you when it is done, I will be going to a 4 day work week and will never look back. I do not know how many times I need to be taught that I hate work.... but I know now that I do


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Mark Brown said:


> There has been a lot of action on that in Europe, I want to say the story I read was from France most recently but I could be mistaken. It probably isn't the stupidest idea as it seems like it increases productivity. I would even be in favor of four ten hour shifts, but then again it is all moot to me. I told myself when I paid off my house I would knock back to a four day work week because I can but then I got sucked into a mega project that has come to be the demise of my happy. I can assure you when it is done, I will be going to a 4 day work week and will never look back. I do not know how many times I need to be taught that I hate work.... but I know now that I do


Since I started working for myself I don't get a day off, or, I get a whole bunch off, just depends on how I feel. I work when and for how long I want. Naps in the middle of the work day are a beautiful thing. I do what needs doing and all the other things to be done are optional and at my leisure.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Since I started working for myself I don't get a day off, or, I get a whole bunch off, just depends on how I feel. I work when and for how long I want. Naps in the middle of the work day are a beautiful thing. I do what needs doing and all the other things to be done are optional and at my leisure.


If I had a dollar for every nap I have had in the back of my van during work, well, I wouldn't have enough to retire but I might have enough for a new guitar. It got to the point where I contemplated building a fold down bunk. As it is, there is permanently a sleeping bag, yoga mat and interlocking foam tiles that make a decent bed


----------



## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

Mark Brown said:


> If I had a dollar for every nap I have had in the back of my van during work, well, I wouldn't have enough to retire but I might have enough for a new guitar. It got to the point where I contemplated building a fold down bunk. As it is, there is permanently a sleeping bag, yoga mat and interlocking foam tiles that make a decent bed


I did this when I was a delivery man. I fell asleep one time for 5 hours. Surprised I didn’t get scouted by Canada Post.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Always12AM said:


> I did this when I was a delivery man. I fell asleep one time for 5 hours. Surprised I didn’t get scouted by Canada Post.


It wasn't the full 8 boss, you were never in the running


----------



## Paul M (Mar 27, 2015)

Jim DaddyO said:


> <snip>...If it were up to me the work week would be 32 hours (4 eight hour shifts) and wages would be adjusted so the worker wouldn't lose any money. Labour laws may be changing to a 4 day work week. Employers are actually requesting it. There were a few stories about it, this is just the first one that came up on Google.
> 
> Ontario to mandate all businesses switch to 4 day-work week starting in 2023


That was published on April 1st...... just sayin'.

That said..... I work 6 days, 44 hours in retail. A four day on, 3 day off, 32 hour schedule would be awesome.


----------



## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

oldjoat said:


> the original tie came from the great plains of europe and asia.
> a RAG tied around the neck to wipe the sweat and dirt away.
> converted to the cravat by the french for the same purpose
> then endorsed by the brits , later turned into the regimental tie to tell troops apart
> ...


Pointless. That’s what sleeves are for. Left for sweat, right for nose.


----------



## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

JBFairthorne said:


> Pointless. That’s what sleeves are for. Left for sweat, right for nose.


ya never wear T shirts ?


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

at one place I was contracted to, I had a strict 8 hours per day and 4 days per week ... 
no overtime. ( my terms)
the contract also specified double time for anything beyond 8 hrs and triple time for work on my days off ... and it had to approved by the owner, no one else. ( he hated anything that ate into his margins as much as I hated the extra work )

some of the inside workers would schedule me for 10-12 hrs and also on my days off.
the answer was "here's the tools , here's the paper work , let me know how that turns out"


----------



## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

oldjoat said:


> ya never wear T shirts ?


Short sleeves work just fine and I don’t wear tank tops.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

JBFairthorne said:


> Short sleeves work just fine and I don’t wear tank tops.


Short sleeves work better 'cause you can hook your thumb under the sleave and really get in there good!

Maybe there is a reason I am desperate for workers.....


----------



## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

oldjoat said:


> some of the inside workers would schedule me for 10-12 hrs and also on my days off.
> the answer was "here's the tools , here's the paper work , let me know how that turns out"


I wish I could do this part….

I start at 5:30am. That puts an 8hr day (less 1/2 lunch) at a home time of 2:00pm.

The amount of meeting requests I get that start at 3 or 4 is maddening. 
I used to just decline them. Then I was asked why. “Well, at 3:00 I have already been here 9hrs. It would be like you taking a meeting at 6 or 7 in the evening”. 
Someone actually had the audacity to try to say it’s not the same thing because of “normal business hours”. 
They may not be your normal, but they’re mine. Someone else suggested I log in from home. 
“Sure, do you want me to turn the camera off, or would you like to see the family?”


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

SWLABR said:


> Someone actually had the audacity to try to say it’s not the same thing because of “normal business hours”.


Reminds me of when I used to work an overnight shift (m-f, 10:30-6:30).
Get home Saturday morning while the neighbour's setting up a yard sale.
Do my usual, change and grab a beer to wind down.
Go outside to chat/scope out what she's putting out.
She starts in on 'how can you have a beer this early?!'
'I just got off of work. I usually have a drink after work. Don't you?'
'Yeah, but .. it's too early, don't you think?!'
So, I go back in the house and pour my beer into a large coffee mug.
'That's better' she said.


----------



## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

laristotle said:


> Reminds me of when I used to work an overnight shift (m-f, 10:30-6:30).
> Get home Saturday morning while the neighbour's setting up a yard sale.
> Do my usual, change and grab a beer to wind down.
> Go outside to chat/scope out what she's putting out.
> ...


I worked overnights as well. I couldn’t bring myself to drink a beer that early. But, that’s why God invented Ceasers!


----------



## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

My son (19) has been working at a busy restaurant for a while. He started in the dish pit and they also trained him on the line. Full time. They have him start at 4 or 5pm, and he closes at least two nights a week which means he's at work until 4 am- 11 hour shift with very little break time. They are always short staffed. My son does several hours on line cook duty and at close has to wash dishes. He had to leave twice due to exhaustion and mild heat stroke- the kitchen is hot, the dish pit is hotter. 
Anyway, he's quitting because there is no end in sight for their staffing issues and It's becoming very unhealthy so I don't blame him at all- he also go Covid working there.
I think this is a common issue with that industry. That's a tough job in normal times, these days, way worse and a lot more pressure on those employees who stick it out. You can't retain staff if you expect them to do the job of two people while paying for one. Catch 22.


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

SWLABR said:


> I couldn’t bring myself to drink a beer that early.


That's just it. It's _not _early for me. It's late in the day.


----------



## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

laristotle said:


> That's just it. It's _not _early for me. It's late in the day.
> View attachment 418816


I know. I worded it wrong... that _time_ of day. Regardless of how long I'd been up.


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

SWLABR said:


> I know. I worded it wrong... that _time_ of day. Regardless of how long I'd been up.


I know what you meant. She argued that point too. lol


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

SWLABR said:


> at a home time of 2:00pm.


mine was 7:00 AM to 3:00 PM to miss the hour traffic (to and from) on purpose.
supposed to get a 1/2 hr lunch break (non paid) ... never got to see it, 
so they got charged full pop and quitting time was 3:00 PM sharp......... period.
"read the contract" .
strange how they tried "job creep/scope" daily  
sure , let's open the contract and negotiate more money .... crickets.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

zztomato said:


> My son (19) has been working at a busy restaurant for a while. He started in the dish pit and they also trained him on the line. Full time. They have him start at 4 or 5pm, and he closes at least two nights a week which means he's at work until 4 am- 11 hour shift with very little break time. They are always short staffed. My son does several hours on line cook duty and at close has to wash dishes. He had to leave twice due to exhaustion and mild heat stroke- the kitchen is hot, the dish pit is hotter.
> Anyway, he's quitting because there is no end in sight for their staffing issues and It's becoming very unhealthy so I don't blame him at all- he also go Covid working there.
> I think this is a common issue with that industry. That's a tough job in normal times, these days, way worse and a lot more pressure on those employees who stick it out. You can't retain staff if you expect them to do the job of two people while paying for one. Catch 22.


My daughter is one of the managers at East Side Marios and she experiences similar over work schedules. She has already talked to the owner to go part time 3 days a week. She'll likely quit if they turn her down.


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

sister-in-law was manager of a restaurant in a big city complex just off the 417 , a whole 40 cents more than regular staff.
she had to open up ,and close each day after the staff went home . responsible for the cash and organizing staff shifts , filling in where ever there was a worker shortage , and keeping customer happy.

there was a big storm one winter and she called in to say the roads were closed and she couldn't make it in to open the shop.
they told her " be here in 20 minutes to open or you're fired "
she said "fine, you fired me, come and collect your keys and bring my final pay cheque while you're at it"
a week later , she became a cashier at a supermarket 10 minutes from home and paid a dollar more per hour than the old job.


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I was listening to an article today and the problem is basically global.

The crux of the situation is that for the last 40 to 50 years people have been having less kids. People are now retiring in droves, which was expected, but that means you have less production, less investment and less buying. Economies, whether capitalism or comunism or any other kind of ism, is based on an expanding population. What is going on is the world is running out of 30 year olds basically. That is, the workers of the world. There is more to it than that, the coming to the end of globalization mixes in too. The economy must shift away from industrial based over time, likely going back to a more agrarian society, so anyone pining for the good old days, well, they're coming, maybe in ways you don't expect.


----------



## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Jim DaddyO said:


> …. People are now retiring in droves, which was expected…


It was expected but don’t think for a minute that the healthcare system is going to be expanded to accommodate an ageing population.


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Wardo said:


> It was expected but don’t think for a minute that the healthcare system is going to be expanded to accommodate an ageing population.


I don't think they will expand it either. Retirement rates are just another indication that the world is changing. Every change comes with it's own set of problems and it's own set of benefits. This is just one piece of the puzzle of how and why the world is the way it is, and that is temporary too, because this world just keeps on changin' for the better or the worse, to steal a Kristoffersson line.


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

Wardo said:


> It was expected but don’t think for a minute that the healthcare system is going to be expanded to accommodate an ageing population.


why should they ? wait long enough and the problem goes away by itself .


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Wardo said:


> It was expected but don’t think for a minute that the healthcare system is going to be expanded to accommodate an ageing population.


My dad is approaching a point were he will need a care home at some point. And the situation with those right now is terrifying in Ontario (and likely the rest of the country).


----------



## Choo5440 (Oct 24, 2020)

torndownunit said:


> My dad is approaching a point were he will need a care home at some point. And the situation with those right now is terrifying in Ontario (and likely the rest of the country).


ugh, I have a lot of friends in healthcare who have gone to the states to work because of the increase in pay there. 
And then there are those that have just left the field altogether after getting burned out.

it's going to be a bleak few years for healthcare


----------



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Choo5440 said:


> ugh, I have a lot of friends in healthcare who have gone to the states to work because of the increase in pay there.
> And then there are those that have just left the field altogether after getting burned out.
> 
> it's going to be a bleak few years for healthcare


Ya Covid did in a lot of my friends in the field. They were already burned out, and that was the final straw for them.


----------



## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

One million job vacancies in Canada now…

Job vacancies hit record in Canada’s tight labour market - BNN Bloomberg


----------

