# Economic Meltdown



## Beatles (Feb 7, 2006)

So the Bush administration failed to pass the $700 billion bail out plan. TSE is down another 800 points, Dow is down almost 500. Wonder where this is all going to end?. Almost apocolyptic.The the housing market look like its going in the crapper as well. Anyone care to share their thoughts on where things may be going and share some ideas how to hedge whatever money they got left?

Probably belongs in the political thread. Mods can move if they like. I have no idea.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

this has been coming for some time. the market prices are unrealistic, and the wages aren't keeping up with inflation. the straight-up profiteering has to end, it's killing us all in the name of BS "trickle down" economic theory that pretty obviously doesn't work. i'm glad the bailout failed, frankly. why should the taxpayers foot the bill for those thieves' failed world domination planning?


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## Beatles (Feb 7, 2006)

suttree said:


> this has been coming for some time. the market prices are unrealistic, and the wages aren't keeping up with inflation. the straight-up profiteering has to end, it's killing us all in the name of BS "trickle down" economic theory that pretty obviously doesn't work. i'm glad the bailout failed, frankly. why should the taxpayers foot the bill for those thieves' failed world domination planning?


I agree. The banks lost the first 700 billion and another 700 billion was going to be thrown at them. Although it would have been nice to see a cap put on the high flying execs severances.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I wouldn't jump to conclusions.

The 700 billion may ultimately pass. It sucks but the alternative could be MUCH worse. Right now with an election coming nobody wants to put their name on it but we'll see.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I wouldn't jump to conclusions.
> 
> The 700 billion will ultimately pass. It sucks but the alternative could be MUCH worse.


Damn straight, this is a HUGE crisis. You can say that the fatcats brought it on themselves ect, ect. But the reality is it's the chumps like us that ultimately lose everything.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Its been brewing for many years........

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html


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## Beatles (Feb 7, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Its been brewing for many years........
> 
> https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html


Yup that's for sure, but I am surprised at how quickly it happened. Yes, they will probably pass some sort of bll or whatever, but like Starbuck says, its the poor chumps like us who get hosed. And I guess that is my point. Inevitably, when th e U.S. sneezes, we catch the cold. Unfortuately I think there will be more job losses, higher interest rates for borrowing, and the house prices will see major declines in their value. If there is anyway to ride this out, I'm in.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

If I was the suspicious, cynical type, I'd say that a lot of House reps are making money in the market as we speak..........


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## Guest (Sep 29, 2008)

allthumbs56 said:


> If I was the suspicious, cynical type, I'd say that a lot of House reps are making money in the market as we speak..........


What? Didn't you all wake up and short the S&P 500 this morning? :wink:


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

I call it Karma


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## bobb (Jan 4, 2007)

Wonder if this will help:



> Subject: Urgent transaction - need your help
> 
> Bright Greetings Dear American:
> 
> ...


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## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

I heard Campbell Soup stocks were up today.:smile:

I'm glad the bailout (theft) didn't pass. All it would do is feed the monster that wants to eat us. We've been living in a hallucinated economy, now it's time to bite the bullet and face reality.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

bobb said:


> Wonder if this will help:


That is funny - almost makes the hurtin' worthwhile :food-smiley-004:


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Lester B. Flat said:


> I heard Campbell Soup stocks were up today.:smile:
> 
> I'm glad the bailout (theft) didn't pass. All it would do is feed the monster that wants to eat us. We've been living in a hallucinated economy, now it's time to bite the bullet and face reality.


Oh - it'll pass. Right now they're just playing politics .....


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

I don't have the solution, but I do believe the $700 billion bailout bill was a terrible idea...it would have enriched Wall Street, and given the Secretary of the Treasury unconstitutional powers.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

THE upside is it will end all those home reno and flip shows.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

I was always skeptical that low interest rates could ever somehow be a problem. They for sure aren't the only contributor (pirates n thieves being another big one, referenced above) but low rates for so long has meant cheap money = SPEND LIKE THERE'S NO TOMORROW IT'S CHEAP TO PAY [email protected]!

I'm also glad the big package today didn't pass and I hope that there never is one passed. Free market economy means letting the chips fall where they may, even if it means lots of short term hurt. I do believe that in the long term the markets will recover, and meantime my twice monthly contributions will be buying at a greatly reduced price = better for 10-15 years from now when I actually need the money. The downside, of course, is that I could be wiped out of savings and starting over 10-15 years from retirement - and that many retirees who are relying on their investments now will be in bad shape.

I've been asking for many years, and nobody has answered to my intellectual satisfaction, if we have gone away from producing actual goods in North America and are focussed on intellectual property + making money out of thin air, where and when does the other shoe drop? Why are farmers poor and grain prices, until last year, hadn't moved up in 25 years? Just an example, but makes no sense to me whatsoever. 

On the other hand, unions have priced big labour out of the market (automotive anyone?) so that one I've seen coming from many years back and it's not going to be a shocker when the big 3 are either gone or consolidated down to maybe 1, and operating under radically different circumstances. And why so much of our consumer goods are produced overseas. Wouldn't have happened if we weren't quite so spoiled as a society :sport-smiley-002:


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## Tarl (Feb 4, 2006)

I think what we are seeing in the world economy is an early start to an evening out of wealth and economic power. Most of this has been brought about by US corporate greed and speculation. China and India will emerge as winners when all is said and done and I'm afraid our kids and grandkids will pay the price with a much lower standard of living than we enjoy.


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## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

rhh7 said:


> I don't have the solution, but I do believe the $700 billion bailout bill was a terrible idea...it would have enriched Wall Street, and given the Secretary of the Treasury unconstitutional powers.


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## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

Tarl said:


> China and India will emerge as winners when all is said and done ....


India maybe. China has to stop poisoning it's own children and producing dangerous products first. I'm really hesitant to buy anything made in China. Even the most innocent things could be dangerous in the long run.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

J S Moore said:


> India maybe. China has to stop poisoning it's own children and producing dangerous products first. I'm really hesitant to buy anything made in China. Even the most innocent things could be dangerous in the long run.


I know, it's ridiculous! Even when shopping for my kids clothes do you know how hard it is to find something "Made in Canada"? Then I get to pay $100 for a sweatshirt cause it's Made by Roots? The thing that's killing me now is this 100 mile diet, Wonderful David Suzuki, yeah I'll only eat food produced and grown with in a 100 miles of where I live. Yeah I'll be living on carrots and onions! We've sold all our farmland to developers now we eat crap that came from California.

The puppet that is George Bush has accomplished his mission. The cronies have all gotten (much) Richer. He's anxious for the bailout so he won't be know not only as the most reviled president in history, but the one who destroyed the country. (Yes I was watching Fox and CNN most of last night, makes me sick)


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

perhaps I'm mistaken, but does this not go back to Clinton's affirmitive action........everyone should be able to buy a home........Ui & Welfare can be used as income to qualify, longer terms on mortages etc...........


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Actually it started in the mid 90s when the US thought future wars could be economic. It will work, if the US goes down, everyone will go down. Do you really think China and India can survive producing goods that no one will buy? I guess the big question, if it does come here, is how happy will the carbon tax make you?..........


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## LowWatt (Jun 27, 2007)

It's no different from the days of Enron and Global Crossing going into the toilet. Companies overvaluing themselves on the overinflated money that they theoretically "could make" and spreading their growth and spending based on that instead of the reality of what they actually have.

It's the equivalent of us playing fast and loose with our credit cards on a much higher scale. Just like us, they get burned every time. 

The same organization that saw nothing wrong with allowing banks giving highly questionable loans and conducting all business and economic practice on the assumption that all loans would be paid back in full is now asking for $700 Billion with which no one can question their judgement and usage. Ridiculous.


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## rippinglickfest (Jan 1, 2006)

*Money*

Here's a Proverb for all that explains a lot.

"Only when the last tree has been cut down,
Only when the last river has been poisoned,
Only when the last fish has been caught,
Only then you will find that money cannot be eaten".


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## rippinglickfest (Jan 1, 2006)

*War Economy*



Accept2 said:


> Actually it started in the mid 90s when the US thought future wars could be economic. It will work, if the US goes down, everyone will go down. Do you really think China and India can survive producing goods that no one will buy? I guess the big question, if it does come here, is how happy will the carbon tax make you?..........


The United States knew a lot longer than before the 90's that war was big business.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Economic war theory is vastly different from war profiteering........


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## rippinglickfest (Jan 1, 2006)

*War Economy*

For all intents and purposes, a war economy is a thriving economy, and the U.S began profiteering back in WW2 when they began leasing ships to great Britain.
Wheres the vast difference?
To get back on track.......the current situation in the U.S is the result of one thing......GREED


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

The theory is that if you print enough money to buy up all the goods of other nations and become their primary customer, you can control their economy. If you want to bring them down, instead of firing missles, you cancel orders. Of course, there are numerous downsides, such as a deflation of your currency, and if you go down, you bring everyone else down too. It only works in a perfect world, which economic theory assumes we live in, but thats another story. Big difference from leasing ships for a profit...........


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

rippinglickfest said:


> To get back on track.......the current situation in the U.S is the result of one thing......GREED


Yes indeed. Pirates in VERY expensive suits....


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Yeah, no kidding.

Last night 500 or so workers at Volvo (road graders) were told the plant will be closing by 2010. In a town of 8000 that's a big hit. The US economy tanks and industry moves south to shore it up...at least it looks that way to me...no matter their rationale.

Peace, Mooh.


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

Mooh...re Volvo/Champion.......was going to pm you with a "heads up" just received a notice here on the fax a few minutes ago...1010 they say..........probably sooner.......we make some castings for them, and just recently they set up a US parts destributor.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

Since Clinton, or perhaps before, supported by bills in Congress, they've been running a fake economy based on smoke, mirrors and greed.

It had to end. Our economy is sort of protected, our banks have to retain equity, can't be quite as loose as US banks, but investments are so interrelated that everything is going to take a kick in the ass.

I heard a term for the first time on the news a couple of days ago - Ninja borrowing, No Income, No Job, No Assets. But you want a mortgage, sure, no problem.

Hell they were lending OVER 100% mortgages. Everyone betting that the smoke and mirrors would keep pushing housing up, then these people could sell their homes at some future date for a profit.

WTF.

And now they are holding a gun to the heads of the American Taxpayers to bail them out of their greed. But if they don't, everything, not just in the US, is going in the tank.

Again, WTF.


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## soundhound6 (Jun 30, 2008)

I really hope that if the bailout passes it's at a much lower level than the $7B
the fat cats want.The *only*trickle down effect will be that the fat cats will have their millions stashed and the heavy cost will be "trickled down" on the rest of us peons!!

Politics and greed rear their ugly heads...I read this morning that the price of oil has dropped a bit and is on shaky ground.No wonder Bush has his nickers in a knot and is crying "patriotism"...he knows he will be effected in this mess of obscene greed that they call the "American Dream".

This has been a long time coming and will be with us for a long time to come!
"We may not all be guilty...but we are all responsible" Abraham Hershel.
This problem is not only an American problem...It's everyone's problem.
A small amount of personal greed is magnified big time by large corporation's
greed.I think we have to adjust our own priorities.

My father asked me one time.."How many houses can a man live in?"(We were discussing some peoples obscene wealth and some peoples abject poverty.)

We will all be biting the bullet for some time to come.I even suspect that this
is only the tip of the iceberg and there's more to come.Ah well...

Jan


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Well here's why... Can you imagine your company FAILING and stillll

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,428641,00.html

No wonder they're in such a pickle..


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

not bad for 17 days of 'work'.

nuts.

I was watching a guy on CNN yesterday, he said the $700 Billion isn't based on any data, they 'just wanted a really big number' - was reported in Forbes.

He thinks the real bailout is going to have to eventually equal, no shit, two TRILLION dollars.

I think us normal folk really don't like to see the uber rich whining on TV, telling us why they need more money. It's going to be ugly before it clears up.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Couple of sobering numbers I've heard: The U.S. stock market lost *1.2 trillion *yesterday alone, and that was with the Feds quietly *injecting 630 billion*. So yeah, 700 billion is just a number and it's emphasis is not financial so much as emotional in objective.

Make no mistake that Congress will pass a "bailout" by the end of the week - Members are currently caught between the politics of being re-elected by the residents of Main Street and the necessity of being seen to take action for the sake of Wall Street.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

They're having problems passing it because of the election so close - the members who are voting on it are getting overwhelmed with phone calls from their constituents saying, in effect, 'NO VOTES FOR JOO IF YOU ENACT THIS'.


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## sneakypete (Feb 2, 2006)

I dunno...to me the words Bush and administration just don`t go together.
Over here, the Japanese gov`t has been quietly pumping billions into their system recently. Amazing how this crunch has affected most of the globe, but I don`t own any money...credit card has been at zero for 4 years... and don`t plan on borrowing any in the near future, and have become used to getting nearly no interest on my savings, it`s been less than 1% for years in Japan, still, watching the exchange rate has been a plus since we`ll have to change our yen into loonies eventually.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

RIFF WRATH said:


> Mooh...re Volvo/Champion.......was going to pm you with a "heads up" just received a notice here on the fax a few minutes ago...1010 they say..........probably sooner.......we make some castings for them, and just recently they set up a US parts destributor.


Thanks man.

It's been suspected for a while, though I won't say publicly why I know this. 500 direct jobs likely means that number again in spin-off and service jobs. 

Peace, Mooh.


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