# Richmond Guitars - belly-up



## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Didn't we have a big discussion about these Richmond Guitars a while back - the one that was vaguely like a Rickenbacker? Looks like they didn't make it. They have them reduced to sell at the Ottawa Folklore Centre:

http://ottawafolklore.com/2013/03/r...e884c-Resonate_Sept/Oct_2011&utm_medium=email


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Mine is a boat anchor in comparison to most guitars, but it's very well made, sounds great, plays great, and looks great if you like that sort of asthetic.

Will be in Ottawa on the weekend, and intend to stop by the Folklore Centre.

Peace, Mooh.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Richmond is actually Godin I believe. So it would appear they are going to drop the line. Never caught on I guess


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## Jimi D (Oct 27, 2008)

Wow, a sale on Richmonds at the Ottawa Folklore Centre means they'll finally be priced the same there as they've always been priced at Steve's or L&M... These guitars were priced right out of the gate, but the whole "retro-inspired" schtick was waning before they even hit the market; once again Godin shows up at the door with a great product, but the party's already over... Reminds me of the Radiator; great little guitar they intro'd after everyone had already bought a Danelectro...


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Yup,they are a Godin line,never played one myself.

No news on the Godin site .


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## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

Ha! Extinction Sale lol.
Also lol at dinosaurs.


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## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

The Godin site has Richmond as one of the model lines...

http://www.godinguitars.com/godinproductlistingp.htm


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Competetive business to be in - that much is no mystery. You need to have tired tested and true looks as well (classic) to appeal to enough customers to make a go of it.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I wouldn't take a name like the Ottawa Folklore Centre and associate it with guitars. I might associate it with medieval costumes. That might be why they aren't selling those Richmond guitars.


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## Intrepid (Oct 9, 2008)

I had tried out the Richmond Belmont with a Bigsby and I loved it. Even though I already have too many electrics I would have bought it immediately if my Wife wasn't with me.


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## OldGuitarPlayer (Feb 25, 2013)

meh..the chinese do it just as good for 1/2 the price anyhow...


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## Fiveway (Mar 21, 2010)

Saddening. I've played the Dorchester and the Belmont and they're both truly excellent guitars. Both the Belmont and Empire are on my "must have" list for my collection. When I can actually afford a collection.

I really don't get Godin's continuous product extension business model. They just keep spinning out new models, new brands, all the time trying to get edge into any crack they can find in the market, no matter how saturated. That strategy has a tendency to backfire because rather than making new customers, you just dilute sales among people who already know and like your products.

Don't get me wrong, I like Godin's products, and I'm a proud Canadian who will always support Canadian products first. But I sure question their product and marketing strategy.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> I wouldn't take a name like the Ottawa Folklore Centre and associate it with guitars. I might associate it with medieval costumes. That might be why they aren't selling those Richmond guitars.



Maybe to someone not clued into the local scene ,but they are a well known entity in the Ottawa market,primarily the acoustic market,but also teaching.
They have been a player in the Ottawa area for as long as I can remember.
That is besides the point however,what does the name of a store have to do with a manufacturer discontinuing a line ?
It's not the Folklore center that was the deciding factor in not producing a line that wasn't selling.
Just another example of Godin spreading themselves a little to thin perhaps
And I say that as a Godin fan/owner .


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

OldGuitarPlayer said:


> meh..the chinese do it just as good for 1/2 the price anyhow...


Debatable, at least the "just as good part".


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Bubb said:


> Maybe to someone not clued into the local scene ,but they are a well known entity in the Ottawa market,primarily the acoustic market,but also teaching.
> They have been a player in the Ottawa area for as long as I can remember.
> That is besides the point however,what does the name of a store have to do with a manufacturer discontinuing a line ?
> It's not the Folklore center that was the deciding factor in not producing a line that wasn't selling.
> ...


My thought was, that maybe Godin is not discontinuing the line but perhaps this store is going to stop handling them. Do you know for sure that Godin is discontinuing the line?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Bubb said:


> Debatable, at least the "just as good part".


Some of the Chinese guitars are as good as anything produced in any other part of the world. Some are not. This is true of any country. Anyone who doesn't think this is true is misleading themselves. The North American car mfrs. said the same thing for years until the Japanese were making better products.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> My thought was, that maybe Godin is not discontinuing the line but perhaps this store is going to stop handling them. Do you know for sure that Godin is discontinuing the line?


As per the link in the original post.

This is posted on the Ottawa Folklore Center website...

Richmond guitars have been discontinued! In other words, they’re extinct, no more, gone the way of the dinosaurs, the dodo bird and the wooly mammoth! Because of this we’re dropping the prices on these gorgeous Canadian made guitars. Drop by soon, or else the last of these instruments that you’ll see will be elaborate CGI recreations featured in sweeping, epic films by famed Hollywood director Steven Spielberg.

That's what I'm going by.

it doesn't say they aren't carrying them anymore,it says they are discontinued .


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Godin folks have great craftmanship...but the owner never really was big on actually DESIGNING great guitars...real shame.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> Some of the Chinese guitars are as good as anything produced in any other part of the world. Some are not. This is true of any country. Anyone who doesn't think this is true is misleading themselves. The North American car mfrs. said the same thing for years until the Japanese were making better products.


I have no doubt that some excellent quality guitars have come from China..
What I would like to see is some quality that is self promoting,ie not reliant on trademark infringement.
Obviously not parties contracted and employed by Fender/Gibson etc .

I don't know of any guitar companies that proudly proclaim "We are Original ,We are Chinese"


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Bubb said:


> As per the link in the original post.
> 
> This is posted on the Ottawa Folklore Center website...
> 
> ...


Thank you. I didn't examine their website. Regards, Steadfastly


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

al3d said:


> Godin folks have great craftmanship...but the owner never really was big on actually DESIGNING great guitars...real shame.


I don't think you have looked at the whole Godin line or you likely wouldn't say that.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Bubb said:


> Maybe to someone not clued into the local scene ,but they are a well known entity in the Ottawa market


Same with Halifax - the Folklore Center has been dealing in guitars forever and is well known.


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## The Lullaby (Dec 8, 2010)

Godin are always changing their line slightly every year.


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

Bubb said:


> That's what I'm going by.
> it doesn't say they aren't carrying them anymore,it says they are discontinued .


I saw that on their website but I haven't seen any mention of it on the Godin website, the Richmond website, the Richmond facebook page. If the whole line really is discontinued it seems like a strange way to announce it.


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## Jaybo (Jun 3, 2010)

Jimi D said:


> Wow, a sale on Richmonds at the Ottawa Folklore Centre means they'll finally be priced the same there as they've always been priced at Steve's or L&M... These guitars were priced right out of the gate, but the whole "retro-inspired" schtick was waning before they even hit the market; once again Godin shows up at the door with a great product, but the party's already over... Reminds me of the Radiator; great little guitar they intro'd after everyone had already bought a Danelectro...


Too true. 

I hope it's just the Richmonds, and not indicative of how Godin is doing company wide.


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## Jimi D (Oct 27, 2008)

Bubb said:


> I have no doubt that some excellent quality guitars have come from China..
> What I would like to see is some quality that is self promoting,ie not reliant on trademark infringement.
> Obviously not parties contracted and employed by Fender/Gibson etc .
> 
> I don't know of any guitar companies that proudly proclaim "We are Original ,We are Chinese"


You obviously have NOT looked at Eastman Guitars.






































Why don't you do so now and maybe you'll stop talking out your ass.

http://www.eastmanguitars.com/


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

You are correct,I totally forgot about Eastman.
My ass apologizes.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Bubb said:


> You are correct,I totally forgot about Eastman.
> My ass apologizes.


Don't allow your ass to fully apologize...the second and third one are complete rip-offs. The rest of those are hideous.


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## TheRumRunner (Sep 29, 2011)

What a bloody shame, they had a few models that were nice interpretations of classics. 










DW


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## Jimi D (Oct 27, 2008)

smorgdonkey said:


> Don't allow your ass to fully apologize...the second and third one are complete rip-offs. The rest of those are hideous.


Oh bullshit... Re the second guitar, where can you get a small-bodied semi-hollow with a one-piece CARVED top and back made in the US? NOT from Gibson, that's for sure... In fact, not from ANY mass market guitar maker in America... And who first produced the small-scaled ES-335-alike anyway? Was it Gibson? No.... Heritage? uh-uh... It was IBANEZ, in like 1980... so the T184MX pictured is exactly like NOTHING ever made in America, based on a body size loosely derived from something Gibson designed in the '50s but much closer to an Ibanez design from the '80s... no company's tried to make anything like it before as a regular model that I can think of...

As for the third one, that's a John Pisano Signature design. Pisano designed it, incorporating the elements he wanted from established archtop guitars. Here he is playing one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhcMlE-5f3E. He's kind of a trad dude, so you can expect his guitar to be derivative, but in today's uber-litigious culture, you can be sure there is no copyright infringement going on with this design... 

Complete rip-off? You, sir, are also talking out your ass...

(Meanwhile, Godin produces "nice interpretations of classics" as in the post above... but of course, they aren't foul Commie Chinamen, so it's not theft, it's art...)


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## OldGuitarPlayer (Feb 25, 2013)

Bubb said:


> Debatable, at least the "just as good part".


True. I have seen excellent quality asian made guitars and ones that were suspect in workmanship. The country a guitar is made in is of no consequence to me anyway. If it is made well and I can get it inexpensively that's all that matters to me. My only electric is a Squier CV 50's BSB Telecaster that cost me $240 w/gigbag. It works just like a telecaster is supposed to and that's really all that matters to me.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Jimi D said:


> smorgdonkey said:
> 
> 
> > Don't allow your ass to fully apologize...the second and third one are complete rip-offs. The rest of those are hideous.
> ...



They are ugly though.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

hardasmum said:


> They are ugly though.


Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. How many times has a Manzer been included in lists of ugly guitars?..............


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## TheRumRunner (Sep 29, 2011)

Back on Topic.... from the horses mouth


Richmond Guitars Canada (Official) Hi Stuart, definitely not discontinued...simply put...The Richmond brand has now been merged into the Godin brand as a sub-series of Godin. This way, the guitars will get more exposure and be available through more dealers in our network of dealers throughout the world. Feel free to ask about the Godin Richmond Series at your local authorized Godin dealer today! Best Regards.

DW


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Well,there ya go .

Must have been some kind of miscommunication at OFC .


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Jimi D said:


> Complete rip-off? You, sir, are also talking out your ass...


Well, I think you are talking out of your ass so we're even...well, not really even - you are talking like a know it all so, I'm above you.

It looks identical to a Gibson. RIPOFF!! The intricacies of whether it has a one piece blah blah doesn't matter. If they are that innovative then why can't they come up with their own design?

Anyway...I'll leave you to your internet tough-guy act.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Lets try to skip the personal attacks going forward please


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## Jimi D (Oct 27, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Lets try to skip the personal attacks going forward please


Ya, it's so much easier to make broad accusations based on race or country of origin, regardless of their validity...


edit: which doesn't entirely say what I want to say so, let me be clear; I think the statements made about Chinese instruments by some members of this board are vacuous and unjustified. Anyone who claims that the Eastman T184MX is a "theft" of a Gibson design clearly doesn't wish to acknowledge anything about how this instrument is crafted or understand the history of electric guitar manufacture - because if you want to paint design "theft" with such a broad brush, then every electric guitar manufacturer since Gibson and Fender could be accused of the same degree of stealing, and the argument could be made that Leo stole from Bigsby and Henry from Rickenbacker, so there you have it; it's a faux argument used to camouflage nothing less than unjustified prejudice against the place of manufacture and its people... 

The Chinese make many great guitars, most of which we never see here... Are there counterfeit factories? Sure, just like there have been in Japan and Korea (and even the US and Canada for that matter, though here we call them "boutique"... What's a Max but a counterfeit? What about all those incredible totally original designs coming out of Canadian Breed?) The borderline racism painted as objective "fact" irritates me; it confounds my usually generous and forgiving nature... 

And I love the straw-man bit about "Internet tough guy"... just ignore the argument and pretend I'm just an asshole... whatever lets you sleep at night, I guess...


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## TheRumRunner (Sep 29, 2011)

Jim D, you are coming across rather ... strong & very defensive

Re: Eastman I'll let this factory tour speak for itself. Personally, I find quite a few issues with the builds and it confirms my beliefs that many Far East made instruments hide less desirable manufacturing techniques under lots of stain and lacquer.

Compare that video to the ones of Martin or PRS, or even Godin lol

http://youtu.be/mtBlGRmnmJE

[video=youtube_share;mtBlGRmnmJE]http://youtu.be/mtBlGRmnmJE[/video] 

DW


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Jimi D said:


> ... just ignore the argument and pretend I'm just an asshole... whatever lets you sleep at night, I guess...


You said it

and I am not pretending.

Consider this: In all of your verbose explanations, why do you have to tell people who you disagree with that they are 'talking ouit their ass'? <---rhetorical question (that means that you don't have to answer it - it's supposed to make you consider your actions).

You are welcome.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I think that most people take offense to the blatant forgeries coming out of China.
I'm sure that there are fine craftsmen in China, but we rarely/never see any examples.

Personally, I take offense to someone slagging another forum member.
Small builders such as Bill get their foot in the door and some recognition and exposure with traditional builds.
He is moving into original designs, only after he had established a reputation.
They are also well within the legal requirements to build these initial instruments.

Some of those Eastman guitars get pricey, personally, I'd go another route if I were spending that much cash.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Jimi D said:


> Ya, it's so much easier to make broad accusations based on race or country of origin, regardless of their validity...
> 
> 
> edit: which doesn't entirely say what I want to say so, let me be clear; I think the statements made about Chinese instruments by some members of this board are vacuous and unjustified. Anyone who claims that the Eastman T184MX is a "theft" of a Gibson design clearly doesn't wish to acknowledge anything about how this instrument is crafted or understand the history of electric guitar manufacture - because if you want to paint design "theft" with such a broad brush, then every electric guitar manufacturer since Gibson and Fender could be accused of the same degree of stealing, and the argument could be made that Leo stole from Bigsby and Henry from Rickenbacker, so there you have it; it's a faux argument used to camouflage nothing less than unjustified prejudice against the place of manufacture and its people...
> ...


There is nothing in this thread that has not been discussed, debated and flamed across every other guitar forum for the past 15 years at least. We have actually had lengthy and informative discussions regarding the whole Asia vs North America built guitars and it always breaks down to the same common denominator, materials. In terms of design. Every guitar worth owning that I have ever seen breaks down to about 4 basic designs from Fender and Gibson. A thousand little variations have all been implemented but behind them are the same 4 basic designs. 

So the only real argument left is the materials and components that go into a guitar. In terms of workmanship I will put together a guitar for you that would be on par with a $3500 Fender Strat. just tell me what your budget is. So workmanship, unless you are hand carving anything is a loose term. Some of the guys that are hand building guitars on here, necks and bodies included should be excused from this discussion as those truly are hand crafted instruments and one of a kind. 

I have yet to see a Chinese built guitar that had decent components in it at any price point. I mean everything from the nut to the pick-ups. All no-name junk, that's not a racial comment that is a statement of fact. even on the nicest of them. Even Epiphone uses cheap components on the majority of its models. So then comes price. What are you willing to pay for a Chinese guitar and then get it to a high end component guitar? I have stated a hundred times on here that a reputable Chinese manufacturer will build you a guitar to your exact specs. If you want it as tight as a $4000 Gibson they can do that. There is nothing wrong with the workers or equipment. They build to spec. I have an old Alex Chase guitar here that I picked up for $100 off a guy. This was another small guitar company that decided to have guitars built in China and put his name on them. I can tell you that he spent the money on these. The first time I held that guitar and ran my hands down the neck and body, the joints, the nut. You could tell the quality that went into it. The pick-ups and hardware were not even that bad but I changed them out anyway. That guitar right now is as nice as many PRS I have handled.

Now, I just got my whole story out and managed not to call one person an asshole.


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## Hammertone (Feb 3, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I have yet to see a Chinese built guitar that had decent components in it at any price point. I mean everything from the nut to the pick-ups. All no-name junk, that's not a racial comment that is a statement of fact. even on the nicest of them.


Mmmm...come to Toronto and spend some time examining and playing the Eastman guitars in stock at the Twelfth Fret. I do not think they conform to your assessment. They are excellent guitars, for the most part. As well, the Yunzhi factory (I suspect an ex-Eastman connection) is also making excellent guitars to order. Also, which are the four basic designs from Fender/Gibson to which you refer? 



TheRumRunner said:


> Re: Eastman I'll let this factory tour speak for itself. Personally, I find quite a few issues with the builds and it confirms my beliefs that many Far East made instruments hide less desirable manufacturing techniques under lots of stain and lacquer. Compare that video to the ones of Martin or PRS, or even Godin lol http://youtu.be/mtBlGRmnmJE DW


I don't understand what you are saying here in terms of the video. Also, what issues do you have with their builds?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I have yet to see a Chinese built guitar that had decent components in it at any price point. I mean everything from the nut to the pick-ups. All no-name junk, that's not a racial comment that is a statement of fact.


I don't believe, Scott, that this is true. You're only talking a few dollars difference in components, for these guys are buying in 1000 and 10,000 lot quantities. I've mentioned this before but in case you and others have missed it, I worked for a large international manufacturer and had access to their costs. I was amazed the first time I looked at some of the prices of items. I just couldn't believe how cheap they were buying them. We could have sold them to many of our competitors cheaper than they were buying them.

I could be wrong about this but I don't believe Fender, Gibson or PRS own a smelting factory which means they are not making their metal components but buying them. Don't be surprised if we find out they are having them made in Asia or China. And why not? That's where they will get the best price and they are in business to make _*money*_, not guitars and amps, though many would have us believe otherwise. Regards, Steadfastly


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Steadfastly said:


> I don't believe, Scott, that this is true. You're only talking a few dollars difference in components, for these guys are buying in 1000 and 10,000 lot quantities. I've mentioned this before but in case you and others have missed it, I worked for a large international manufacturer and had access to their costs. I was amazed the first time I looked at some of the prices of items. I just couldn't believe how cheap they were buying them. We could have sold them to many of our competitors cheaper than they were buying them.
> 
> I could be wrong about this but I don't believe Fender, Gibson or PRS own a smelting factory which means they are not making their metal components but buying them. Don't be surprised if we find out they are having them made in Asia or China. And why not? That's where they will get the best price and they are in business to make _*money*_, not guitars and amps, though many would have us believe otherwise. Regards, Steadfastly


Again, its the build and material spec. You can have absolutely anything built in China at ANY level of quality, you just have to put that into the build spec. You want cheap, you get cheap, you want high quality you get high quality. Its a question of how much the end seller is targeting as profit. So it makes no difference if Fender and Gibson have the hardware manufactured in China, its to what spec.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Hammertone said:


> Mmmm...come to Toronto and spend some time examining and playing the Eastman guitars in stock at the Twelfth Fret. I do not think they conform to your assessment. They are excellent guitars, for the most part. As well, the Yunzhi factory (I suspect an ex-Eastman connection) is also making excellent guitars to order. Also, which are the four basic designs from Fender/Gibson to which you refer?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't understand what you are saying here in terms of the video. Also, what issues do you have with their builds?


Have never even seen an Eastman personally so can't comment on them. I am only speaking of the ones I have seen so far. Again. You can have any level of quality out of China, you just have to specify what level you want.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Again, its the build and material spec. You can have absolutely anything built in China at ANY level of quality, you just have to put that into the build spec. You want cheap, you get cheap, you want high quality you get high quality. Its a question of how much the end seller is targeting as profit. So it makes no difference if Fender and Gibson have the hardware manufactured in China, its to what spec.


To date, you have literally hundreds of people in North America buying guitars for around $79 a piece and selling them here for $300 and upwards. Those are cheap guitars. if someone wants to have the higher quality woods and hardware they have to pay more. Carparelli Guitars is a prime example of that. When he first started out he was buying the budget level guitars out of Asia. Pricing around $300 to $500 tops. He is now pricing guitars at $2500 or more. Clearly we have upgraded the specs and materials


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

You cannot lump all "Made in China" instruments into a generic heap. While I've never played an Eastman guitar I do own a beautiful Eastman mandolin. It says right on the label inside "Handcrafted in the workshop of Eastman strings Beijing China" - they're not trying to fool anyone. Eastman mandolins are highly regarded over on the Mandolin Cafe. Someone recently posted a blind A-B comparison of a high end Eastman mandolin verses a super high end Gibson. No-one could pick out which was which. No-one is claiming that the Eastmans are "as good as" the Gibson, just that they are both high quality instruments. Just because there is lots of junk coming in from China, it doesn't mean that they are incapable of making the good stuff.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

bagpipe said:


> You cannot lump all "Made in China" instruments into a generic heap. While I've never played an Eastman guitar I do own a beautiful Eastman mandolin. It says right on the label inside "Handcrafted in the workshop of Eastman strings Beijing China" - they're not trying to fool anyone. Eastman mandolins are highly regarded over on the Mandolin Cafe. Someone recently posted a blind A-B comparison of a high end Eastman mandolin verses a super high end Gibson. No-one could pick out which was which. No-one is claiming that the Eastmans are "as good as" the Gibson, just that they are both high quality instruments. Just because there is lots of junk coming in from China, it doesn't mean that they are incapable of making the good stuff.


Which is exactly what I am saying. You can have anything you want made in China to any level of quality. You just have to spec it that way and pay accordingly. The Chinese are immensely talented manufacturers they will build whatever you want. They are also THE worst country on earth for stealing products designed and manufactured else where in the world. For every single popular product on earth there is an equivalent low quality Chinese counterfeit. Was reading a story the other night about the guy that designed the X-mini speaker. He selected China as his manufacturing base. Several months into production he was contacted by several of his dealers demanding a price cut. He asked why and they told him they had another source for half the price. His own patented product.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Indeed...the Canadian Government was recently talking about cheap Chinese knock-off parts in some of their military aircraft. It's all inter-related (HA!).

Back to guitars...I have not yet found a Chinese pickup that is decent. It seems like 90+% of people who buy Chinese guitars get decent pickups put in shortly after. The woodworking and so on was only a matter of time and they have already eclipsed many of their hurdles so soon they will begin tightening their tolerances so that their product(s) pass more rigorous inspection(s).


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## TheRumRunner (Sep 29, 2011)

Hammertone said:


> I don't understand what you are saying here in terms of the video. Also, what issues do you have with their builds?


On one hand they show someone carefully shaping a neck joint, however when placed in the body there was large gaps and the neck was glued using wood glue as opposed to hide glue, thus not allowing for future neck resets. I would describe the overall workman ship in critical areas of that video as crude.

Now watch this video - at min 14:45 onwards watch the care taken in joining necks to bodies.

http://youtu.be/fXGV31hOYhs

[video=youtube_share;fXGV31hOYhs]http://youtu.be/fXGV31hOYhs[/video]

DW


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## TheRumRunner (Sep 29, 2011)

When reading Fender's SEC IPO Filing last year, I found this...

_We rely on our OEMs to maintain production quality that meets our standards. Our OEMs may not continue to produce products that are consistent with our standards as a result of the use of lower-quality raw materials, changes in production methods, a shortage of qualified employees or poor financial condition. For example, as of December 31, 2011, more than 11,000 guitars manufactured by one of our Asian OEMs had failed our quality control inspections because the OEM began using a lower-quality component without our permission, and several thousand additional guitars manufactured by that OEM may fail our inspections as well. Our quality control measures largely consist of inspecting samples of products shipped to us and visiting our OEMs. We do not, however, base any of our employees at these manufacturing sites. Our inspection methods may prove inadequate to detect defects in our products before they reach consumers. If OEMs do not maintain adequate quality control measures, or if the quality control inspection measures that we employ fail to detect quality control issues, our reputation and the value of our brands could be harmed, and we could incur increased returns and warranty expense, which would harm our business and operating results. _

DW


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

> _You're only talking a few dollars difference in components, for these guys are buying in 1000 and 10,000 lot quantities._





GuitarsCanada said:


> Again, its the build and material spec. You can have absolutely anything built in China at ANY level of quality, you just have to put that into the build spec. You want cheap, you get cheap, you want high quality you get high quality. Its a question of how much the end seller is targeting as profit. So it makes no difference if Fender and Gibson have the hardware manufactured in China, its to what spec.


That just doesn't make sense. There is not that much money in the difference in quality between cheap components and expensive components. Are you saying on the top quality Ibanez guitars they are using cheaper materials than on a Gibson or PRS?


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Steadfastly said:


> That just doesn't make sense. There is not that much money in the difference in quality between cheap components and expensive components. Are you saying on the top quality Ibanez guitars they are using cheaper materials than on a Gibson or PRS?


Components and hardware can vary hugely in cost. Go and price out a cheap pair of Chinese made tuners and a set of Kluson Deluxe tuners. Price out a no name brand stop tail bridge spray painted silver and a real chrome plated or nickle bridge. Price out a real nice set of pickups vs a cheap Chinese set. I can get a set of pick-ups out of China for $10.00 and that's what they will sound like. Cheap plastic nuts vs bone or a nice TUSQ nut. Etc etc etc right on down the list of hardware and components. Please don't try to argue that the cheap hardware is as good as the expensive stuff. There is no argument there


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

TheRumRunner said:


> When reading Fender's SEC IPO Filing last year, I found this...
> 
> _We rely on our OEMs to maintain production quality that meets our standards. Our OEMs may not continue to produce products that are consistent with our standards as a result of the use of lower-quality raw materials, changes in production methods, a shortage of qualified employees or poor financial condition. For example, as of December 31, 2011, more than 11,000 guitars manufactured by one of our Asian OEMs had failed our quality control inspections because the OEM began using a lower-quality component without our permission, and several thousand additional guitars manufactured by that OEM may fail our inspections as well. Our quality control measures largely consist of inspecting samples of products shipped to us and visiting our OEMs. We do not, however, base any of our employees at these manufacturing sites. Our inspection methods may prove inadequate to detect defects in our products before they reach consumers. If OEMs do not maintain adequate quality control measures, or if the quality control inspection measures that we employ fail to detect quality control issues, our reputation and the value of our brands could be harmed, and we could incur increased returns and warranty expense, which would harm our business and operating results. _
> 
> DW


Great post RumRunner!!


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Steadfastly said:


> That just doesn't make sense. There is not that much money in the difference in quality between cheap components and expensive components. Are you saying on the top quality Ibanez guitars they are using cheaper materials than on a Gibson or PRS?


Let me try to explain it this way. They use what they are told to use by the buyer. The buyer selects the materials and components not the manufacturer. You can for example tell the manufacturer that you want genuine Kluson tuners installed on the guitars they are making for you. GM and Ford make cars. The components are sourced from all over the world made to the exact specification ordered. Not decided upon by the manufacturer but by GM and Ford. If you create Steadfastly guitars you tell them to what level of quality you want and they make it. If you say use plywood they will use plywood. If you say use mahogany they will use mahogany. So the level of quality you receive from any seller of guitars over here that has them made in China is decided by them not the Chinese


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Components and hardware can vary hugely in cost. Go and price out a cheap pair of Chinese made tuners and a set of Kluson Deluxe tuners. Price out a no name brand stop tail bridge spray painted silver and a real chrome plated or nickle bridge. Price out a real nice set of pickups vs a cheap Chinese set. I can get a set of pick-ups out of China for $10.00 and that's what they will sound like. Cheap plastic nuts vs bone or a nice TUSQ nut. Etc etc etc right on down the list of hardware and components. Please don't try to argue that the cheap hardware is as good as the expensive stuff. There is no argument there


I'm not arguing that the cheap is as good as the better quality ones. What I'm saying is the difference is minimal. What's costing you $10.00 is costing the manufacturer $1.00-2.00. There is not a lot of money in components in a guitar, so there is no reason that should be making a guitar thousands of dollars more than one that is using cheap components. This has been an ongoing marketing ploy used by guitar manufacturers for a long time. It simply is not true. The cheap hardware may be $20.00 on a cheap guitar. The expensive may be $50.00-$100.00 when bought in quantity. 

The point I am making is that there is no big difference on Asian and Chinese guitars and quality guitars build elsewhere. The component and build cost just isn't high enough to make much of a difference. The difference is in the marketing and profits taken by the large companies and trying to satisfy the shareholders.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

TheRumRunner said:


> When reading Fender's SEC IPO Filing last year, I found this...
> 
> _We rely on our OEMs to maintain production quality that meets our standards. Our OEMs may not continue to produce products that are consistent with our standards as a result of the use of lower-quality raw materials, changes in production methods, a shortage of qualified employees or poor financial condition. For example, as of December 31, 2011, more than 11,000 guitars manufactured by one of our Asian OEMs had failed our quality control inspections because the OEM began using a lower-quality component without our permission, and several thousand additional guitars manufactured by that OEM may fail our inspections as well. Our quality control measures largely consist of inspecting samples of products shipped to us and visiting our OEMs. We do not, however, base any of our employees at these manufacturing sites. Our inspection methods may prove inadequate to detect defects in our products before they reach consumers. If OEMs do not maintain adequate quality control measures, or if the quality control inspection measures that we employ fail to detect quality control issues, our reputation and the value of our brands could be harmed, and we could incur increased returns and warranty expense, which would harm our business and operating results. _
> 
> DW


This is nothing new. This has been going on since the beginning of time. How many automobiles have been recalled because of faulty products that have not met spec? Millions and millions. And these products come from many different countries, including Canada and the USA.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Steadfastly said:


> I'm not arguing that the cheap is as good as the better quality ones. What I'm saying is the difference is minimal. What's costing you $10.00 is costing the manufacturer $1.00-2.00. There is not a lot of money in components in a guitar, so there is no reason that should be making a guitar thousands of dollars more than one that is using cheap components. This has been an ongoing marketing ploy used by guitar manufacturers for a long time. It simply is not true. The cheap hardware may be $20.00 on a cheap guitar. The expensive may be $50.00-$100.00 when bought in quantity.
> 
> The point I am making is that there is no big difference on Asian and Chinese guitars and quality guitars build elsewhere. The component and build cost just isn't high enough to make much of a difference. The difference is in the marketing and profits taken by the large companies and trying to satisfy the shareholders.


Partly true. But the final cost of a guitar sold by Gibson or Fender also has to include the costs of thousands of employees all over the world, the marketing and sales branches, the advertising budgets etc etc. 

I would agree that if you spec a guitar out and give it to the people at Fender to build and a quality shop in China to build you will get a comparable product. The old saying we always had in manufacturing was "garbage in garbage out". There is no two ways around that


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## Hammertone (Feb 3, 2006)

TheRumRunner said:


> On one hand they show someone carefully shaping a neck joint, however when placed in the body there was large gaps and the neck was glued using wood glue as opposed to hide glue, thus not allowing for future neck resets. I would describe the overall workman ship in critical areas of that video as crude. Now watch this video - at min 14:45 onwards watch the care taken in joining necks to bodies. http://youtu.be/fXGV31hOYhs
> DW


I see what you're suggesting, but I disagree with a lot of it. 

1. 
Hide glue is only used on a tiny percentage of guitars for neck body joints. It's a lovely product. Eastman uses a water-soluble wood glue, as do many others, including Martin and Gibson on most of their guitars. I believe that the Eastman necks are just as capable of being reset as any other brand of guitars with dovetail neck/body joints. I don't see Eastmans as crude at all - I see them as largely hand-made. I think their craftsmanship is actually quite good. They haven't adopted the level of automation that American producers have, and they make far fewer guitars than Gibson/Godin/Martin/Fender etc.

2.
There is a gap in the dovetail joint on the front face where it faces the neckblock. I've reset and seen resets being done on the dovetail necks of many older American-made guitars that showed gaps in that spot, and almost all the resets I have done have been the result of glue failure due to age, not due to gaps in that spot. Could the Eastman joint be cut to minimize this gap further - yes. Should they tighten up the tolerance if they can - yes. Does it make them bad guitars? No. 

I have played quite a few Eastman acoustic guitars and quite a few Godin/Norman/Lapatrie/Seagull/Simon&Patrick/etc. guitars over the past few years and as recently as this year. In general, I would pick the Eastman flattop acoustic as a better sounding and better feeling guitar than the Godin. I would definitely pick the Eastman 371CE/372CE/403CE (all-laminated) archtops over the various Godin 5th Avenue guitars.

3.
I think Godin is all about automation and production efficiency - Robert Godin and his team are very smart and I have huge respect for what they have accomplished. Their instruments showcase all sorts of interesting innovations. However, I like their business better than I like their guitars. With Eastman, I like their guitars better than I like their business.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> This is nothing new. This has been going on since the beginning of time. How many automobiles have been recalled because of faulty products that have not met spec? Millions and millions. And these products come from many different countries, including Canada and the USA.


You can apply this to any comment that you made here too so what's the point? 



Steadfastly said:


> The point I am making is that there is no big difference on Asian and Chinese guitars and quality guitars build elsewhere. The component and build cost just isn't high enough to make much of a difference. The difference is in the marketing and profits taken by the large companies and trying to satisfy the shareholders.


There's where you are off track (and by the way - marketing and shareholders have been around for a long time too). The big salaries and the marketing are huge expenses (they are for all big companies). The Chinese companies don't have wages to deal with (they pay so little - let's just call it nil), benefits, environmental controls/policies, permits, licenses, taxes. There are many, many things that businesses in the developed world have to pay for that Chinese companies don't have to pay for and as has been said...this has been covered over and over.

Your issue is your hatred for Gibson...you are a zealot when it comes to anti-Gibson rhetoric and it comes out whenever the topic is up. It even when it isn't the topic (like when you were taslking about some other guitar's pickguard but you had to throw in the 'ugly triangle thing' and mention 'some other manufacturer' and then another thread mantion how they are 'notorious' for their ugly pickguards. I think that you should look up notorious in the dictionary. 

There is no point to it. I don't like many things about their corporate structure/attitude/etc (or many corporations' practices) but the constant whining is TIRESOME. I hate Apple's constant BS but you never see me trashing the company.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Partly true. But the final cost of a guitar sold by Gibson or Fender also has to include the costs of thousands of employees all over the world, the marketing and sales branches, the advertising budgets etc etc.


I heartily agree.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Hammertone said:


> I see what you're suggesting, but I disagree with a lot of it.
> 
> 1.
> Hide glue is only used on a tiny percentage of guitars for neck body joints. It's a lovely product. Eastman uses a water-soluble wood glue, as do many others, including Martin and Gibson on most of their guitars. I believe that the Eastman necks are just as capable of being reset as any other brand of guitars with dovetail neck/body joints. I don't see Eastmans as crude at all - I see them as largely hand-made. I think their craftsmanship is actually quite good. They haven't adopted the level of automation that American producers have, and they make far fewer guitars than Gibson/Godin/Martin/Fender etc.
> ...


A very interesting post and thoughtfully written.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

smorgdonkey said:


> The Chinese companies don't have wages to deal with (they pay so little - let's just call it nil), benefits, environmental controls/policies, permits, licenses, taxes. There are many, many things that businesses in the developed world have to pay for that Chinese companies don't have to pay for and as has been said...this has been covered over and over.


I believe this viewpoint is overstated. As China's economy rises, to too does pressure exerted by a new middle class for higher wages and better working conditions (both of which most the company significantly). Also, with China's centrally-controlled economy framework coupled to their own unique distortion of pure capitalism, there's plenty of room for corruption. This is especially true via middle and high-ranking party officials in the gargantuan bureaucracy, whose official permission for all manner of things is necessary for Chinese companies to secure if they want to ship goods abroad - everyone gets in line for their take, you see). So bribes and kickbacks to ensure the wheels of commerce are sufficiently oiled are _also_ a cost of doing business. Heck, this stuff is as old as the hills and is not limited to China. Take a good look at Montreal's construction industry, and the scandals arising from the billowing costs of that new super-hospital they're building. There's the official cost associated with designing/manufacturing/marketing and, finally, selling a product... and there's the true costs. The second tally rarely gets any notice.

Bottom line, I don't think it's as cheap as it used to be for stuff to be made there. The success of Chinese-made goods being sold abroad also hinges on fuel costs... if oil prices continue to rise it's going to kill them in shipping costs. But that's down the road. Meantime yes, Chinese-made guitars are cheaper because wages are lower (but calling them nil is also ridiculous since Chinese workers manage to feed, clothe and shelter their families with such wages, and I'm sure you'll agree that's no small thing). Expect to hear more and more about the middle class in China wanting more money and safer conditions in exchange for their labour and technical know-how. It's inevitable.

Meanwhile, back to Chinese-made guitars in general. In my experience, a good chunk of wood is a good chunk of wood. I have a Washburn X series, a cheapie guitar, that is a fantastic player... it looks great and doesn't disappoint. But it's been the exception; most of the time it's the hardware that's not up to par. Crappy electronics, not great tuners, that sort of thing. I've only ever owned entry-level Chinese stuff, so I can't comment on the quality of the higher-tier instruments.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Corruption indeed would be a part of the 'true cost'. That's everywhere...even here. Our provincial government gave millions away to Irving and it is common public information. So, one of the richest corporations in Canada gets a forgivable $260 million loan as long as they create 4000 jobs. That's corrupt as it gets.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/story/2013/03/15/ns-shipbuilding-jobs-loan.html 



Maxer said:


> Meantime yes, Chinese-made guitars are cheaper because wages are lower (but calling them nil is also ridiculous since Chinese workers manage to feed, clothe and shelter their families with such wages, and I'm sure you'll agree that's no small thing).


The most up to date info that I have seen is about 2 years old when a teacher was making about $200 per month and that is for 6 days per week and 12 hours per day.

Factory/assembly workers about $1 an hour and in many locations they live on site so the company deducts about half of their wage for food and a dorm room.

Information from last month:
One of Apple's suppliers...$17 per day according to this article:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/24/the-ieconomy-how-much-do-foxconn-workers-make/

It may be going up but I still call that nil.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

You may call it nil - relative to your own situation it makes sense. But I doubt that a Chinese worker who feels fortunate to even have a job calls it nil. 

Too, Chinese-made guitars are only the latest in a long story. Used to be most electrics were made States-side, but that's a long time ago. The simple cost of living, better and still-improving working conditions and relatively high wages in North America steadily drove up the prices. Not every budding guitarist can afford a Mexi-Fender, let alone an American one or, even worse, a Gibson. There's lots of well-made guitars to be had at prices lower than a Mexican Fender - made in places like Taiwan, Indonesia, South Korea and, yep, China. The total market for guitars includes options at all the price points - from cheapie to boutique and all points in between. It's gotten so that even Gibson and Fender long ago saw the value of controlling the market for budget and lower-tier stuff as much as they could - hence their investments in lines that are created exclusively overseas by the same folks whose original guitars were, at one time and in certain cases, so fiercely competitive with American-made instruments that their market dominance was being threatened. Guitars exclusively on American soil are in for an uphill battle - it's slowly becoming a niche market.

Maybe an even larger looming problem is that the kids these days aren't very interested in playing guitar. They're big time into sequencing and sampling and slamming together loops, doing mash-ups, using auto-tune and roll-your own software packages. The market or guitars of any sort may well find itself shrinking.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Maxer said:


> You may call it nil - relative to your own situation it makes sense. But I doubt that a Chinese worker who feels fortunate to even have a job calls it nil.
> 
> Too, Chinese-made guitars are only the latest in a long story. Used to be most electrics were made States-side, but that's a long time ago. The simple cost of living, better and still-improving working conditions and relatively high wages in North America steadily drove up the prices. Not every budding guitarist can afford a Mexi-Fender, let alone an American one or, even worse, a Gibson. There's lots of well-made guitars to be had at prices lower than a Mexican Fender - made in places like Taiwan, Indonesia, South Korea and, yep, China. The total market for guitars includes options at all the price points - from cheapie to boutique and all points in between. It's gotten so that even Gibson and Fender long ago saw the value of controlling the market for budget and lower-tier stuff as much as they could - hence their investments in lines that are created exclusively overseas by the same folks whose original guitars were, at one time and in certain cases, so fiercely competitive with American-made instruments that their market dominance was being threatened. Guitars exclusively on American soil are in for an uphill battle - it's slowly becoming a niche market.
> 
> Maybe an even larger looming problem is that the kids these days aren't very interested in playing guitar. They're big time into sequencing and sampling and slamming together loops, doing mash-ups, using auto-tune and roll-your own software packages. The market or guitars of any sort may well find itself shrinking.


Your post nails the present manufacturing and marketing situation as it truly is. I don't understand why so many won't accept this as it is very evident in all phases of production in today's markets. Is it perhaps nationalism (our country is the best syndrome) that prevents people from seeing things as they truly are?


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Inflation drove the prices up in my opinion. People have talked about prices going up for years but I bought a brand new Gibson in 2005 and the price did not change for years before that and it still has not changed. Now Gibson is dropping some of their prices and Fender is raising theirs. 

I don't think many people aren't aware of the realities in manufacturing any more...almost nobody that I speak to personally but the majority of those people still don't want to buy from China because of the political situation. Some people don't care about that and some people do.

I know that the people over there will work for very little and they will be 'happy' to have very little but they are indoctrinated and oppressed. On a related note: one of the Apple suppliers is now encouraging the employees to sign a non-suicide oath. That speaks to 'feeling fortunate to have a job'. They aren't happy to work for so little - they just have little choice.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

smorgdonkey said:


> Inflation drove the prices up in my opinion. People have talked about prices going up for years but I bought a brand new Gibson in 2005 and the price did not change for years before that and it still has not changed. Now Gibson is dropping some of their prices and Fender is raising theirs.
> 
> I don't think many people aren't aware of the realities in manufacturing any more...almost nobody that I speak to personally but the majority of those people still don't want to buy from China because of the political situation. Some people don't care about that and some people do.
> 
> I know that the people over there will work for very little and they will be 'happy' to have very little but they are indoctrinated and oppressed. On a related note: one of the Apple suppliers is now encouraging the employees to sign a non-suicide oath. That speaks to 'feeling fortunate to have a job'. _*They aren't happy to work for so little - they just have little choice.*_


As for them having little choice, you are right. Fortunately, the cost of living is much lower there than in Western society. Unfortunately, though, having little choice is a worldwide problem for billions of people. Many of those, too, are indoctrinated. 

I had not heard about the "non-suicide oath". Could working wages and/or conditions be any worse when companies are pushing this? 

Guitars and the manufacturers of them aside, it's a sad world indeed, when we think of the plight the capitalist system has put many of our fellow human beings in.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

smorgdonkey said:


> I don't think many people aren't aware of the realities in manufacturing any more...almost nobody that I speak to personally but the majority of those people still don't want to buy from China because of the political situation. Some people don't care about that and some people do.
> 
> I know that the people over there will work for very little and they will be 'happy' to have very little but they are indoctrinated and oppressed. On a related note: one of the Apple suppliers is now encouraging the employees to sign a non-suicide oath. That speaks to 'feeling fortunate to have a job'. They aren't happy to work for so little - they just have little choice.


They are happy insofar as when your options are don't work and starve or work under dreadful conditions for meagre pay, most people are going to take the former. Happy as in, _happy to be alive,_ to have a roof over one's head, to be able to feed and clothe your children, to dream of a better figure. The most basic kind of contentment.

As for indoctrination, what makes you think North Americans aren't suffering under some form of indoctrination or delusion? I don't get it - it sounds like a comic book summation of the world. You might as well say we're been indoctrinated to wallow in materialism and am embarrassment of choices. There's some truth to that, after all. We worship at the alters of Costco, Walmart, Best Buy, Bulk Barn, Home Sense, Fannie May and Freddy Mac.

You call the Chinese people indoctrinated but I would counter that much of the difference is more culturally rooted. In Asia the individual comes distinctly second to the group/family/clan. It's been that way for centuries. Their roots are more about behaving in according to a norm of the masses rather than here in the west, where we tend to revere, even glorify the individual. Both systems have their own strengths and pitfalls.

In my experience, when people as consumers sometimes talk disparagingly about so-called evil Chinese communists, reading between the lines they're also privately upset that we've lost so many good-paying manufacturing jobs in the West - jobs that got outsourced to nations we used to casually relegate to third world status. Part of that anger and outrage comes out in dissing the Chinese for their political system - even though in reality that very system is itself rapidly changing. The old guard that rules China is having an increasingly harder time exerting their authority over the Chinese people - who've had a taste of middle-class living and crave much more of it.

The Chinese are not going to turn into Westerners however - that would be reading the situation wrongly. I guess time will tell. I suspect that, as the world gets smaller and more intimately tied together, we'll all be meshing our cultures mores. I already feel a microcosm of that now in the city I live in... just came back from a walk along a boardwalk along the lake and heard Russian, Chinese, Italian, French, Spanish... I think people learn to take what traditions and norms they like from one culture and bolt it onto their own individual world view. If that means cobbling together a Frankenstein take on politics, religion, morals, whatever, so be it. People are already going there.

_________________________________

Back to guitars and their future. I think guitars and all their related hardware are going to become ever more a boutique pursuit. Already I can plug a guitar into my computer and summon up a boatload of very sophisticated emulated tones. I don't need a [email protected] amp - I use near field monitors. I don't need a fancy studio costing me an arm and a leg to record in - I compose and master in a tiny little back room in my own house. Is it perfect? Nope. But it sure doesn't stop me from being creative, and the investment to get me here relative to what it would have cost me even a decade ago is quite low indeed. And although I have many guitars, I could probably get away with one or two and ditch the rest. If I _wasn't_ a guitarist but still wanted to compose using guitar tones, I could sample the guitar from other recordings, or I can buy or otherwise get ahold of a pile of guitar loops and make stuff with that.

More importantly, if I was a 13 year old kid and never knew what the world was like before iPhones and Google and cloud this and that,_ I wouldn't notice the difference, I wouldn't know what I was missing at all_. I'd still be making music. There's an excellent chance I just wouldn't care if I didn't know how to play guitar... in time I might become curious and actually want to learn how to really play one, sure. Or I might decide that it's just too old school and I want to do today's music with today's tools. Guitars could become something belonging to dusty generations past.

I hope not, of course. But we're moving into a world where music is essentially becoming very plastic and fluid. People's notions of how to make it are changing. Music itself is not a static thing. The electric guitar is the undisputed king of rock and roll, and the blues. But every movement has its day. Are we ready for what comes next, I wonder?


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

I think that a lot of people who are rural and for decades and centuries have been subsistance farmers and so on probably go in to larger centers to work due to the allure of "there is something better for you" and in a 'follow' society like that many people are going to do it and stick with it even if they never get ahead...but that's just my personal take on it.

The cultural part of the family and do for the group yes, that is admirable but the OBEY part is the part that I have empathy for. Their government is fortunate that they have shaped the people over time to think that way - if they tried that on people of Irish descent I would bet that they would have been overthrown ages ago. That's just my personal take as well.



Maxer said:


> In my experience, when people as consumers sometimes talk disparagingly about so-called evil Chinese communists, reading between the lines they're also privately upset that we've lost so many good-paying manufacturing jobs in the West - jobs that got outsourced to nations we used to casually relegate to third world status. Part of that anger and outrage comes out in dissing the Chinese for their political system - even though in reality that very system is itself rapidly changing. The  old guard that rules China is having an increasingly harder time exerting their authority over the Chinese people - who've had a taste of middle-class living and crave much more of it.


There is no doubt that this is one of the most interesting aspects of the discussion. I openly begrudge the loss of manufacturing jobs for 2 reasons:
1) the powers that be in the developed world lost them when they didn't have to and for the most part let them go because the top people could make way more money that way
2) it isn't a level palying field in the obvious aspects of manufacturing (IE: things I mentioned previously like environmental policy, safety, permits, etc 'just the cost of doing business')

I don't hold that against the Chinese people though, because I know that it won't be reversed. I place all of the blame on the corporate greed in our own '1st world' countries.

As to the Chinese government changing due to pressure from the people - I'll believe it when I see it. Just look at Tibet to see how little China cares about what other people think and as for what their own people think, you'll see a repeat of Tiananmen Square if the 'middle class' over there tries to actually apply public pressure. 

I'm not saying that I can't be wrong but I just can't see China ever rolling over like Russia did with the Berlin Wall.

I do also wonder if we are ready for what lies ahead.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

smorgdonkey said:


> Their government is fortunate that they have shaped the people over time to think that way - if they tried that on people of Irish descent I would bet that they would have been overthrown ages ago. That's just my personal take as well.


Sure, it's your personal take on it. It's a given. That's all we're doing; jawboning back and forth about our personal takes. But I don't give the Chinese authorities anywhere near the credit you do for having "shaped the people over time to think that way." It's just too simplistic. It puts too much power in the hands of the few and makes the Chinese masses look like sheep. My counter argument is that no one nation has a lock on sheep, or sheep-like tendencies. Again, I think it goes back to profound cultural differences/disticntions between Asia and the West.



smorgdonkey said:


> I don't hold that against the Chinese people though, because I know that it won't be reversed. I place all of the blame on the corporate greed in our own '1st world' countries.



To me, that's perhaps a little closer to the truth; but even then, I think it's far more complex than that. More factors/variables working in the background. But I will say this: the rise of Walmart and Costco and bargains-at-all-costs shopping venues are _directly_ tied to the loss of local manufacturing. They come hand in hand. We might say one thing as citizens of our the West and as job holders, but as _consumers_ we often say something else entirely. We rarely look at how those two things are linked.

But hey, it's a good conversation to have.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Went to the OFC on Saturday. Played a couple of Marc Beneteau flattops, a 12 string and a 6 string, both were very nice. Also played a couple of ukuleles. Bought a Gold Tone banjo-ukulele, with hardshell case. 

http://www.goldtone.com/products/details/w/instrument/431/BUS-Soprano-Banjo-Uke Mine has more hooks but is otherwise alike.

Still like the OFC.

Peace, Mooh.


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