# Tweed Speaker Suggestions



## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Just picked up a sweet Victoria 5512 today from a fellow Forumite (Champ in a tweed Deluxe cab) and I only have one complaint:

"De Italian Reissue Jensen speaker she's a likes a mia mamma in a da law. She's a screams a real a nasty and she's a farts a real a bad."

Any suggestions on a speaker to tame the ice pick? I once owned a Clark Beaufort (major seller's remorse here) that had a Celestion Alnico Blue...wow! Was considering going that route again, but I'm worried that the 5 or so watts that the 5F1 circuit pushes out won't be enough to properly drive an Alnico Blue.

I've been pretty happy with the Lil Buddy (10" version of a C. Rex) in my '62 Princeton & would gladly purchase another Eminence product. I have a Red, White & Blues kicking around, but I'm wondering if the RWB is too efficient (120W power rating) for the wee Vic? 

Any input would be appreciated.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

120 Watts in not the efficiency, but rather the power handling. I say there is no harm in trying the RWB... the same features that make it able to handle 120 watts may also tame some of the high end... and perhaps limit any low end farting. The speaker is quite sensitive (efficient) too at 101dB, but I would think that would be useful for a 5 watt amp... you won't know if you like it for sure unless you try it. 

Also, I wouldn't worry about the Celestion Blue. It is rated only at 15 watts, so it really handles low-powered amps just perfectly and is also very efficient (100dB) so it would be very ideal. Also, it should sweeten up that high end.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

What Jensen is in there now? They now ship with Emis.

TG


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## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

The key to reaching a 5F1's true potential is through using a 4 ohm driver. I have a 5F1 in a cab that accepts 10" speakers and am using a 50W Weber Blue Pup ceramic. Tons of volume and punch, but very un-Tweed like chime. No flatulence on the bottom end with the higher power rating, probably stiffer cone and/or heavier duty magnet responsible for this. Celestion Blue might sound good, but I think they only come in 8 and 16 ohm versions, so you'd probably be missing out the punch and volume that the 4 ohm delivers. Weber makes the 12" Blue Dog however in 4 ohm version, ceramic or alnico versions IIRC. Would probably recommend the higher power rated versions of those as well.

Several of the RI Jensens are noted for the icepick and the poor bass response you've indicated, and that was my experience with a P10R I had once. The icepick gets tamed a bit as the speaker breaks in and ages, but a) that takes a long time, and b) it doesn't tame it that much. I'd say there are far better options available, as you already suspect...


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

Anything with a hemp cone will dampen the highs also. Go Tone Tubby if your pocket book can handle it. Weber also offers hemp cones as an option on several drivers.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

traynor_garnet said:


> What Jensen is in there now? They now ship with Emis.
> 
> TG



It's an Italian-made P12Q, 8 ohm. Although it's in fantastic condition, I'm the third owner of this amp, so I have a feeling that the speaker is as "broken in" as it's going to get.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

gtone said:


> The key to reaching a 5F1's true potential is through using a 4 ohm driver. I have a 5F1 in a cab that accepts 10" speakers and am using a 50W Weber Blue Pup ceramic. Tons of volume and punch, but very un-Tweed like chime. No flatulence on the bottom end with the higher power rating, probably stiffer cone and/or heavier duty magnet responsible for this. Celestion Blue might sound good, but I think they only come in 8 and 16 ohm versions, so you'd probably be missing out the punch and volume that the 4 ohm delivers. Weber makes the 12" Blue Dog however in 4 ohm version, ceramic or alnico versions IIRC. Would probably recommend the higher power rated versions of those as well.
> 
> Several of the RI Jensens are noted for the icepick and the poor bass response you've indicated, and that was my experience with a P10R I had once. The icepick gets tamed a bit as the speaker breaks in and ages, but a) that takes a long time, and b) it doesn't tame it that much. I'd say there are far better options available, as you already suspect...



So today I ran the Vic through an open back Fuchs Mini 112 cab that has a UK Celestion G12M25 (8 ohm) installed. I had high hopes for this combination but it was pretty muffled. Is this because the measly 5W of the 5F1 circuit can't push the Greenback hard enough?

Based on how good my Clark 5E3 sounded with a Celestion Alnico Blue, I'm leaning that way again. The good news is that Weber makes a 4 ohm version of the Blue Dog in both Alnico & ceramic. Other options include paper or hemp cone, doping & power rating. Help!

The reason I sold the Clark is that I'm living in a condo (5E3 was too too loud - - couldn't hit the sweet spot w/out the neighbours calling security) so I don't need extra volume. This amp is an attempt to get the fullness of a Deluxe (vs. a Champ w/ an 8" speaker) but at a more reasonable volume.


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## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

WRT the volume issue, my 5F1 running a 4 ohm Blue Pup at around 5W is almost as loud as my '51 Deluxe with 8 ohm USA P12Q putting out around 12W. Based on that, you might opt for a less efficient driver option if you want to push your amp into breakup in your condo. Just sayin'...


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

My Victoria 20112 (5e3) has a Jensen p12q and I very much like that combination. I prefer it over an Eminence 1258 and GB128, both oth which I tried.

I also have a Valvetrain Tallboy (5f2) which came with an Eminence 1258. I tried a Jensen p12q and an Eminence GB128 in it, and settled on the GB128.

The Victoria/p12q favors humbuckers and the Valvetrain/GB128 favors single coils... to my ear anyways.


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## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

dradlin said:


> My Victoria 20112 (5e3) has a Jensen p12q and I very much like that combination. I prefer it over an Eminence 1258 and GB128, both oth which I tried.
> 
> I also have a Valvetrain Tallboy (5f2) which came with an Eminence 1258. I tried a Jensen p12q and an Eminence GB128 in it, and settled on the GB128.
> 
> The Victoria/p12q favors humbuckers and the Valvetrain/GB128 favors single coils... to my ear anyways.


No doubt about it, a P12Q is a good match for a Tweed Deluxe - nice breakup characteristics, classic airy AlNiCo tone and the bottom-end is a little less farty than a P12R. Notwithstanding that, there's still a lot of sag/looseness in the lower register going that route, but that is very characteristic of that amp's sound. 

Two things that impressed me with the Blue Pup in the 5F1 were it's chiminess and also how tight/full the lower frequencies sounded. Matter of fact, it made my Champ the least "Tweed" sounding Tweed I've ever heard.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Getting some chime & a tighter/fuller bottom end from a tweed amp is appealing. My Clark 5E3 came with a Celestion Alnico Blue, which I preferred over a late 50s P12Q, which was still a tad "farty" w/ humbuckers. 

I understand the concept of using a less efficient speaker to get breakup at lower levels, however please pardon my ignorance about speaker ratings. Does this mean that I should increase the ohm rating &/or the wattage to obtain the desired effect?


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

Roryfan said:


> Getting some chime & a tighter/fuller bottom end from a tweed amp is appealing. My Clark 5E3 came with a Celestion Alnico Blue, which I preferred over a late 50s P12Q, which was still a tad "farty" w/ humbuckers.
> 
> I understand the concept of using a less efficient speaker to get breakup at lower levels, however please pardon my ignorance about speaker ratings. Does this mean that I should increase the ohm rating &/or the wattage to obtain the desired effect?


No, it is neither of those. If you look up the speaker's specs there is a stat called "sensitivity". It is measured in dB at 1 watt of power. The number can really range but I sort of consider everything over 98 or so as getting pretty loud anfd efficient.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Thanks for the clarification. What, if any, effect do ohm & wattage ratings have on tone & volume?


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## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

Roryfan said:


> Thanks for the clarification. What, if any, effect do ohm & wattage ratings have on tone & volume?


WRT a Champ circuit, running a 4 ohm speaker will give you more volume, presence and punch than an equivalent 8 ohm. This is probably a generalization here, but speakers with higher wattage ratings tend to break up later and offer more headroom (specially where heavier cones and magnets are responsible for the higher rating, but not necessarily the case where a large v. coil applies) and have tighter lower frequency response (a good thing where a Tweed is concerned).


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## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

Here's my 5F1 with the 4ohm 10" Blue Pup ceramic.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

sigiifaPicked up a 12" Celestion Alnico Blue from a forum member but it doesn't fit into the 5112. The extra preamp tubes in a 5E3 push the larger power amp tubes further to the left, but in this particular 5F1 circuit, the 6V6 is smack dab in the middle of the chassis and thanks to the larger magnet of the Blue it doesn't fit (yes, we tried removing the bell from the back of the magnet but still no dice). Oh well, I've got a line on a vintage Jensen, hopefully that tames the ice pick a little.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

gtone said:


> Here's my 5F1 with the 4ohm 10" Blue Pup ceramic.


That shore is purty.


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

I had a Trinity 5E3 that I built. I used a vintage '64 C12N in there. It sounded great. There is clip on You Tube if you search for Trinity 5E3. - Keith


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## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

C12N is great speaker for a vintage Fender tone (albeit, more BF-era than Tweed) with it's slight mid-scoop, without doubt would be a good choice. Might be hard to find a Jensen 12" in 4 ohms however and a 4 ohm driver is KEY to getting great tone out of a Champ.

Having said that, Brit-voiced speakers like the Weber Blue Pup/Blue Dog will deliver more bell-like chime though with their enhanced mids, however. A chimey Tweed Champ circuit is a treat, IMHO and most Weber models are available in 4 ohm versions. The tighter, more attenuated bass response of those speakers will help reduce the inherent "farty" Tweed low-end. Again, the Celestion Blue would also make a good choice if it came in a 4 ohm version (and if it fit, as you mentioned...).

You might want to contact member WCGill (Bill) here about Weber speakers, as I understand he's a Cdn distributor (I have no affiliation with Bill or Weber). He might have a line on a 4 ohm Blue Dog or be able to recommend something else suitable for your needs.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

gtone said:


> C12N is great speaker for a vintage Fender tone (albeit, more BF-era than Tweed) with it's slight mid-scoop, without doubt would be a good choice. Might be hard to find a Jensen 12" in 4 ohms however and a 4 ohm driver is KEY to getting great tone out of a Champ.
> 
> Having said that, Brit-voiced speakers like the Weber Blue Pup/Blue Dog will deliver more bell-like chime though with their enhanced mids, however. A chimey Tweed Champ circuit is a treat, IMHO and most Weber models are available in 4 ohm versions. The tighter, more attenuated bass response of those speakers will help reduce the inherent "farty" Tweed low-end. Again, the Celestion Blue would also make a good choice if it came in a 4 ohm version (and if it fit, as you mentioned...).
> 
> You might want to contact member WCGill (Bill) here about Weber speakers, as I understand he's a Cdn distributor (I have no affiliation with Bill or Weber). He might have a line on a 4 ohm Blue Dog or be able to recommend something else suitable for your needs.


Just snagged a vintage Jensen P12P. Now that the magnet cover is removed I think it will fit:bullbeg:. 

Methinks this came from an organ as there are 2 electric plug receptacles on the sides of the magnet cover. The cover is held in place with a screw and the logo on the back of the cover is stamped metal (there are no markings on the magnet itself). It reads Jensen Manufacturing Company, Chicago Ill. USA, Alnico 5, Concert Series, PM Speaker & "see model and specification number on speaker". There's a bit of rust obscuring the numbers, but here's what I can make out: Date code 22001?, 5394 on the basket & P12P C53??2?166 on the outer edge. Any idea how old this is?

But I'm still thinking that I might suck it up & order something from Weber. There are a plethora of choices in the 4 ohm Brit camp: Blue Dog/Silver Bell, AlNiCo/ceramic mag, paper/hemp cone, power rating. What would you choose?


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## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

4 ohm compared to 8 ohm in a early Champ is like the difference between night and day.

Hemp cone speakers are a non-starter with a Champ. I've run mine through a 2X12 loaded with Tone Tubby H1E Alnico Reds and the result was toneful and smooth, but way too dark and "brown" for most people's tastes. 

Alnico vs ceramic is a matter of personal taste, but I think ceramic gives a little tighter and more extended high and low frequency response. Alnico tends to compress and smooth the highs - not a bad thing at all, but it can take away a bit of articulation. Alnico does have that instantly identifiable Tweed tonal quality, however, so it depends on what you're gunning for. 

My pick would be for the Weber Blue in ceramic, but the Silver Bell might also be a strong contender. I've never heard one by itself in a cab, but Bill Gill (wcgill) had a cab loaded with Blues/Silver Bells that he demo'd one of his designs through and it was a very nice, tight, articulate and chimey combination. You could ask his opinion - he's very knowledgeable about speaker selections as he runs into a lot of toneful stuff coming across/from his bench.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Thought I'd provide an update as I think the experimentation is done for a while. Thanks to everyone for sharing their knowledge & experience.

Loaded the vintage P12P into the Victoria 5112 & it was a definite improvement over the RI Jensen, ice pick is gone. SC pups sound fantastic, humbuckers are good provided you don't push the amp too hard. It almost sounds like a fuzz pedal on the verge of melting down when you crank it up w/ a Lester, good for NYCH tones I guess.

Also reacquired an open backed Fuchs Mini 112 cab & replaced the stock Emi RWB (which sounded pretty good) w/ the Celestion Alnico Blue that didn't fit into the Vic (the magnet was hitting the power amp tube). It's 8 ohm, not 4 ohm as suggested, but it was here & paid for so why not try it.

Oh. Hot. Damn.

As predicted it's chimey but not harsh, the bottom end isn't as flabby & it loves humbuckers. Also running an AC4 head through this cab, I think my hunt for indoor amps is done. Plugging the Vic into the Blue turns it into a completely different amp, lots of flavours to play w/ right now.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Swapped the NOS Mullard (?) 12AX7 for a JJ ECC81/12AT7 and thanks to the lower gain preamp tube, the Jensen doesn't mind humbuckers now.


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