# Driverless car kills 2



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Why do we need driverless cars. Half the fun of going somewhere is driving the car. I love driving. Its a solution where there isn't a problem.









Two men killed in Tesla car crash 'without driver' in seat


One victim was found in the front passenger seat and the other was in the back after the accident in Texas.



www.bbc.com




.


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## crann (May 10, 2014)

I absolutely hate driving. More specifically, I hate driving amongst everyone else. Someone driving slower than I am? Get out of the way idiot. Someone driving faster than I am? Slow down you psycho.

Imagine sitting in your car, reading, playing guitar, sleeping etc while you take a daytrip somewhere a few hours away. Sounds blissful.

I also have this theory about cars that we'll see if it comes true. In many industries where technology has come and absolutely massacred the established regime, the old-guard rebrand as "luxury". Watches, handwired amps, mechanical keyboards, nitro finish etc. Gas based cars with manual steering in 50 years will be seen as chic and trendy with insanely high prices.

But to talk about the article, how many people who were driving died due to human error today? On average over 3k worldwide per day and over 100 per day in the US. I'd much rather a fleet of robocars on the road than people who can't keep their eyes off their phones.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I used to love driving. Nowadays there are too many speeders and too many slow pokes. Always getting cut off or tail gated on the hwy. I wake up 15 minutes early now so I can take the side streets to work. Last week some dumb ass decided that he needed to leave the hwy doing 150kph from the left lane. I don't know how he missed me. Now I take the Lakeshore and see maybe 3 cars on the way to work. Heaven!!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Why do we need driverless cars. Half the fun of going somewhere is driving the car. I love driving. Its a solution where there isn't a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Why?

Because so many people among us do NOT like to drive and are unwilling to pay attention to it.

The more of these reluctant and disinterested drivers we can take out of the equation the better it will be for those of us who DO enjoy driving.


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## Ricktoberfest (Jun 22, 2014)

Also the fact that Tesla’s are so far 10 times safer drivers than people. And that’s just during beta testing. 

I like to drive too, but not always. 15 hours on the road isn’t fun for long. There are many days on my way home from work where I’m dazed and tired from my day that I’m sure I would be safer with an AI driving me home, rather than getting home and wondering where the drive went. 


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

guitarman2 said:


> Why do we need driverless cars. Half the fun of going somewhere is driving the car. I love driving. Its a solution where there isn't a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Every time there's a news article talking about a driverless car killing someone they should have to state how many cars with drivers killed someone that day.


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## VHTO (Feb 19, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> Why do we need driverless cars. Half the fun of going somewhere is driving the car. I love driving. Its a solution where there isn't a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Seems like we have 2 candidates for the 2021 Darwin Awards...


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There are a lot of people for whom a car that takes care of most of the speed and direction control comes as an absolute blessing. I'm not thinking of people here, who find driving and other drivers exasperating, but rather people who either can't legally or physically drive. In the "legal" category, we have people with perceptual handicaps epilepsy, and elderly people who might be starting to dement. In the physical category, we have individuals with motor handicaps, amputations, and other physical limitations, and so on. Being able to have the freedom of having a vehicle at one's disposal that can simply be told where to go ("Alexa, take me to the drug store" "Take me to Marks' house."), is a real boon. I will also add that, among seniors, having one's driver's license taken away ranks among the things many are most afraid of. You can piss your pants, fill up your Depends, and you're still a "grownup", but not being allowed to drive anymore makes you a kid.

That said, autonomous vehicles tend to require fairly predictable contexts to safely operate in, and only a limited subset of roadways dovetail with that. In terms of the AI, there are still plenty of bugs to work out, as well as priorities in autonomous decision-making that meet ethical standards. Not every thoroughfare is compatible with maintaining a consistent speed. It will also be a VERY long time before roadways stop being a mixture of driver-controlled and autonomous vehicles, so the situational consistency required for optimal functioning of autonomous vehicles will only be present for a minority of roadways. I would imagine that, eventually, new communities will be planned/designed to anticipate such vehicles, but I can't see existing communities being torn up and re-engineered to mesh with such vehicles; particularly as long as they make up only a small fraction of vehicles.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Aren't these autonomous vehicles setup to operate on roads outfitted with the infrastructure to support the AI?

These two were on a residentual cul-dr-sac, at a high rate of speed it seems. Neither of them in the drivers seat either. 
I thought that there are onboard sensors to monitor that the drivers eyes are open and they're aware?

Sounds like the family watched them burn for four hours as they couldn't extinguish the fire as the batteries kept igniting.


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## Ricktoberfest (Jun 22, 2014)

sulphur said:


> Aren't these autonomous vehicles setup to operate on roads outfitted with the infrastructure to support the AI?
> 
> These two were on a residentual cul-dr-sac, at a high rate of speed it seems. Neither of them in the drivers seat either.
> I thought that there are onboard sensors to monitor that the drivers eyes are open and they're aware?
> ...


1. It’s not autonomous 
2. The sensors can be defeated by those who wish to do so. Tesla’s use sensors to detect if your hands are on the wheel, but a quick search finds wedging something in the wheel makes the car think it’s the operator. 
3. Lithium Ion battery fires aren’t something most fire departments are ready to handle despite the fact that the tech has been around for years. 

The only thing surprise here is the age of the Darwin Award winners. 


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> Why do we need driverless cars. Half the fun of going somewhere is driving the car. I love driving. Its a solution where there isn't a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I enjoy driving too. So much so, both my cars have manual transmissions, even though I know an automatic can shift faster and smoother than I possibly could. I like the sound of an ICE as well (preferably a flat plane crank V8).

But I get that some people dont...at this point, age-wise, I feel sandwiched by them....geriatrics and millenials.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

The cars are marketed as having a "Full Self-Driving" mode as a $10,000 option. Why would you expect it to not self drive anywhere you want it to when you paid $10k xtra for "Full Self-Driving" ? It does say "Full"

In some EU countries they can't use those nice marketing buzz words to describe what really is a pretty advanced driver assist mode. They realize some people might take it seriously.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)




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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Ricktoberfest said:


> 1. It’s not autonomous
> 2. The sensors can be defeated by those who wish to do so. Tesla’s use sensors to detect if your hands are on the wheel, but a quick search finds wedging something in the wheel makes the car think it’s the operator.
> 3. Lithium Ion battery fires aren’t something most fire departments are ready to handle despite the fact that the tech has been around for years.
> 
> ...


There was nobody in the drivers seat though. The one guy must've jumped in the back after the car was in motion.

The fire fighters had to call the company on how to extinguish the batteries after using thousands of gallons of water and they'd keep reigniting.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)




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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)




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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Guncho said:


> Every time there's a news article talking about a driverless car killing someone they should have to state how many cars with drivers killed someone that day.


This is from a sample of one maybe?
It’s a useless statistic at this moment. The article states there was no-one in the driver’s seat which is not the same as an autonomous vehicle, of which we currently have zero available.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

mhammer said:


> I can't see existing communities being torn up and re-engineered to mesh with such vehicles; particularly as long as they make up only a small fraction of vehicles.


Toronto and bicycle lanes / infrastructure.



mhammer said:


> ... autonomous decision-making that meet ethical standards.


Great, so if one these cars is parked and empty, sees me walking and there's no one around, it attacks and runs me over .. lol


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## Ricktoberfest (Jun 22, 2014)

Elon Musk roasts WSJ coverage of fatal Tesla crash, defends Autopilot


Tesla CEO Elon Musk roasted the Wall Street Journal for their coverage of the crash that killed two men involving a 2019 Model S. Mainstream media reports claimed that the vehicle was “driverless” in an attempt to cast bad press on Tesla’s Autopilot and Full Self-Driving systems. Musk shared new...




www.teslarati.com





Musk responds

TL;DR. This car didn’t have the full self driving feature and autopilot (the lesser version of lane keeping) wouldn’t have worked as there were no lines on the road. 

I do agree though they should rename their auto driving features until such a time as they are licensed to drive autonomously. Right now when people purchase that you are actually purchasing the ability to do this in the future when it becomes legally available. That something that can be confusing to those who don’t bother to read the instructions. 


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Wardo said:


> Toronto and bicycle lanes / infrastructure.
> 
> Great, so if one these cars is parked and empty, sees me walking and there's no one around, it attacks and runs me over .. lol


There are a few aspects to the ethical side of AI-based decision-making and subsequent action, which a number of informed observers have noted. One is with respect to emergency swerves/responses and "choosing" which of two outcomes, involving harm to humans (e.g., a child running out between two parked cars), is to be selected. The algorithm that decides the fate of a person or piece of property is not going to be all that much wiser than the algorithm that shows you what Youtube video to watch next, what Spotify tune to play, what Netflix show to recommend, or what political viewpoint will show up at the top of your Google hits.

Another aspect is that, at present, AI for recognition of humans and human features, is largely predicated on Caucasians, and has difficulty with darker skin colours.

I'm not suggesting that the AI could *never* be improved, but like digital overdrive and distortion pedals, we're not quite there yet, and won't be for a little while.


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## Fred Gifford (Sep 2, 2019)

I hate driving and usually try to avoid it but once I get back into swing of things I love it ... nothing like jamming down Danforth on a Saturday night (pre-virus) with a standard tranny, weaving in and out traffic with the other cars .. my wife is from a different country, she was having a heart attack in the passenger seat ... she couldn't believe how close together the cars drive ... it's an adrenaline high ...
driving is fun


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I like driving.

I don’t want a truck that makes driving decisions and I don’t want a truck where I have to read instructions.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Why do we need driverless cars. Half the fun of going somewhere is driving the car. I love driving. Its a solution where there isn't a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm legally blind and can't drive. It would be a solution for my problem, even though I don't think we're quite there with driverless cars yet.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I enjoy driving too. I intensely dislike driving on commuter highways, because it puts the very worst of human tendencies on continuous display. But open road I find a pleasure. I thoroughly enjoyed driving the length of the country. If I didn't live so far east, I'd love to drive one of those highways that connects Northern Alberta to the NWT or Yukon.

So, a vehicle that "does the driving" is like being served a steak that a machine has chewed for me already.

But, as Butternucket illustrates, and as I noted in an earlier post, a vehicle that provides the independence of a car without requiring the perceptual or motor requirements to safely operate it, is a godsend for some folks.

As some folks who study traffic patterns have noted, the lack of _coordination_ between vehicles is a frequent slower of traffic. Car A cuts in front of Car B, leading Car B to tap their brakes which causes the cars behind to step on theirs. Having coordinated vehicular flow, where everybody keep moving at a continuous efficient speed, would ultimately depend on cars communicating with each other, and regulating both inter-vehicle distance and speed. BUt as I suggested, that would require a particular kind of select roadway, and either mostly or ONLY autonomous vehicles, with no interlopers.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

mhammer said:


> Another aspect is that, at present, AI for recognition of humans and human features, is largely predicated on Caucasians, and has difficulty with darker skin colours.


One would figure that 'human' shapes would be sufficient?


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

guitarman2 said:


> Why do we need driverless cars. Half the fun of going somewhere is driving the car. I love driving. Its a solution where there isn't a problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The long term goal of driverless vehicle developers is to remove personal vehicle ownership. It would lower cost of living for citizens, removes the need for parking spaces which by default creates more real estate and ultimately means fewer vehicles on the road which means regardless of what method of propulsion they use would reduce the carbon footprint of transportation. It also result in safer roads.

Before people get mad at me, these are not my personal opinions, this is what I've been told by people who work in the field.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

mhammer said:


> Another aspect is that, at present, AI for recognition of humans and human features, is largely predicated on Caucasians, and has difficulty with darker skin colours.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that the AI could *never* be improved, but like digital overdrive and distortion pedals, we're not quite there yet, and won't be for a little while.


They don't even really know how facial recognition works. They basically made a program that was then able to program itself. MIT's newspaper had an article on it a while back.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Okay Player said:


> They don't even really know how facial recognition works. They basically made a program that was then able to program itself.


That's very reassuring ..lol


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Okay Player said:


> removes the need for parking spaces


So, these vehicles would just continuously drive around waiting to service a customer?
Then there will be a congestion of empty cars on the roads. lol


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

laristotle said:


> So, these vehicles would just continuously drive around waiting to service a customer?


Yes. Carpooling will also become increasingly common place.



laristotle said:


> Then there will be a congestion of empty cars on the roads. lol


That gets sorted out pretty easily. Stop signs and lights become unnecessary and you know when you're driving and everyone does different speeds? Not anymore.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Wardo said:


> That's very reassuring ..lol


Exactly what I tell my acquaintances who work on these systems.

Here's a link to anyone interested:









The Dark Secret at the Heart of AI


No one really knows how the most advanced algorithms do what they do. That could be a problem.




www.technologyreview.com


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Wardo said:


> I like driving.
> 
> I don’t want a truck that makes driving decisions and I don’t want a truck where I have to read instructions.


You're not alone, and imho this is why self driving cars will take a generation or two, or even three, to "take over" in some parts of the world.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Okay Player said:


> They don't even really know how facial recognition works. They basically made a program that was then able to program itself. MIT's newspaper had an article on it a while back.


These work on neural networks that you train at first, then it begins learning on it's own. The trouble is that when it will fail is not predictable because the programmers don't really know what's it hasn't learned yet. At least, that's my Scientific American like understanding of it all.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

tomee2 said:


> These work on neural networks that you train at first, then it begins learning on it's own. The trouble is that when it will fail is not predictable because the programmers don't really know what's it hasn't learned yet. At least, that's my Scientific American like understanding of it all.


That's also my basic, unfrozen cavemen level of understanding. In either case, it doesn't fill me with optimism about Skynet.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Wardo said:


> Great, so if one these cars is parked and empty, sees me walking and there's no one around, it attacks and runs me over .. lol


Well, you ARE a lawyer after all


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> Well, you ARE a lawyer after all


are you saying he deserves it?


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

laristotle said:


> Then there will be a congestion of empty cars on the roads. lol


some states have already outlawed "zombie cars" ....
those just driving around empty , looking for a parking spot , until their master calls for them.

all of this can be a blessing for some and a curse for the rest of us.

anyway , I agree that the Darwin Award should go to these two this year .... they deserve it.


they should change the title to "2 idiots killed themselves through stupidity"
the car didn't kill them , they did it to themselves 

if they jumped off a bridge , would we blame the bridge ?


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Okay Player said:


> That's also my basic, unfrozen cavemen level of understanding. In either case, it doesn't fill me with optimism about Skynet.


Ya, when scifi becomes a documentary...


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> Well, you ARE a lawyer after all


No, I figured it would be the hat and my generally offensive demeanor .. lol


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

AI cars ... hummmmm 
so do they go through a period of burning tires and donuts as they mature? 
do they crave a bigger and better battery pack ?
faster is better ... wheeeee! wind in my grill.

do they learn to park by feel ?... R-bump, F-bump, R-bump. 
do they ever get fed up with stupid pedestrians walking against the no walk sign?

since every one has to "learn" and they all learn at different rates , do they get p*ssed off at the slow learners?
do they make jokes about the "other" brands ?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

tomee2 said:


> These work on neural networks that you train at first, then it begins learning on it's own. The trouble is that when it will fail is not predictable because the programmers don't really know what's it hasn't learned yet. At least, that's my Scientific American like understanding of it all.


Human faces are pretty much designed to be readily interpretable. Newborns absolutely LOVE eyebrows, and prefer faces whose spacing of features comes closest to the average spacing of human facial features.

But the ability of humans to be drawn to faces and find them absolutely captivating from the get-go is entirely separate from what allows face A to be distinguished from face B or C, whether the distinction is being made by a human or by an algorithm. That said, there are enough easily measurable parameters that can serve to differentiate faces. It doesn't have to be Marty Feldman googly eyes. Indeed, it is remarkable how much we detect and incorporate the tiniest of differences in our interpretation of faces. Small differences in tilt of eyebrows or pupil size are perceived as conveying emotion, and we can assess age on the basis of small changes to distance between this and that feature.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Christine was notorious for taking lives.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)




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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)




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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

vadsy said:


>


The Black Ghost?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

sulphur said:


> The Black Ghost?


careful
it'll make a ghost out of you


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## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

Kind of reminds me of the beta testing for the vaccine,... uh-oh,... there goes the hair pin trigger again,


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## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

deleted.


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## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

vadsy said:


>


Had one of these during the 70's,... drove it hard which resulted in *me killing it*.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Midnight Rider said:


> Had one of these during the 70's,... drove it hard which resulted in *me killing it*.


Dude that I knew back then had one of those and he wracked it up; killed the passenger and the guard rail came in and took his leg off. He owed me $100.00 at the time; I didn’t like him all that much but I let it go on the hundred.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)




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## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

Wardo said:


> Dude that I knew back then had one of those and he wracked it up; killed the passenger and the guard rail came in and took his leg off. He owed me $100.00 at the time; I didn’t like him all that much but I let it go on the hundred.


Sad to hear those types of stories especially when the lives that were lost were so young. Had the same experience with some friends from high school. Lost four friends due to car accidents which were do to reckless driving.

Three perished in one accident including my brother-in-laws sister due to excessive speed by the driver. He had a 1970 Plymouth Cuda with the 7.0L 426 cu in Hemi engine. There was a serious bend in the road as you entered our town and he lost control of the car crossing the over into the opposite lane and initially hitting a cement block in a parking lot which broke the steering system about 50 feet before the car went straight through a banking institution brick wall. It was ugly,... the cars front end was pushed up to the windshield. I knew someone who was at the scene of the accident and what he described seeing jolted me for weeks,... all three caskets at the funeral were closed. Actually, if it wasn't for the fact that I had a high school exam the next day I would have landed up in that car on the night of the accident and attended the party they were coming from.

The fourth was a female friend who lived in our neighbourhood. A friend and me were taking a late night canoe paddle on the nearby lake when we heard some sort of a collision that literally sent a low deep thud that you could feel in the air like thunder. We stopped paddling but didn't hear anything afterwards. We paddled a bit further then turned around to head back to the landing where my truck was parked and while doing so could hear sirens in the distance.At the landing we put the canoe in the back and headed for home. After a few miles of driving we could see flashing lights up ahead on the road. As we got closer there was an OPP cruiser and a tow truck. I pulled off to the side of the road got out and noticed it was another friend driving the tow truck that night and asked what had happened. With a shocked look on his face he said that Brenda Mackie had died in the accident,... I stood their paralyzed and speechless for a spell then turned towards where the collision had taken place. It was where the local golf course met the road,... I walked towards the crash scene and saw what looked like her 1969 white Camaro. As I got closer I noticed what appeared to be another white vehicle in the distance,... but it turned out to be the back end of the same car. She had drove off the road at what must have been a very fast speed and hit a sturdy and mature maple tree and in doing so the impact split the car in two.

I was in disbelief initially until it fully sank in. The one thing I will never forget is the blood stained grass next to the drivers side door that was open. A few days later the story came out of what had happened. Turns out she and her boyfriend had got into an argument at the local bar just up the road from the accident scene upon which time she left and jumped in her car to head home. He jumped in his car to chase her down which resulted in the disaster. Couldn't imagine what he went through emotionally and psychologically while witnessing what unfolded in front of him.

Needles to say these events left me with a sense of just how fragile life was and definitely transformed my driving habits to be much safer and more responsible.

I now have one of the new Dodge Challengers with 425 HP,... and I drive it like it's made out of glass on the roadways.
However,... when I feel like raising hell with it I go to the 1/4 mile track on the weekend in a controlled environment with all my piston head friends.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

vadsy said:


>


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I think it's worthwhile to note that this is a guitar forum, and by that I only mean that we are not necessarily representative of society as a whole.

Guitarists have tendencies. That's a deep rabbit hole and it's not my intention to go there, but let's just say that, based on working in the industry and what I read in trade publications, the general population embraces autonomous or semi-autonomous driving much more strongly that what I'm reading in this thread.

I'm also one who loves driving (and bumper to bumper traffic in the GTA or any major center is not my idea of driving by the way).

I have a little car I only drive in the summer and it's a joy, exciting, fun all that jazz.

But, even though it may be a major step, we're really only one step away from self driving cars being pretty widely adopted.

It isn't one major innovation. It's a succession of little ones that have all led us to this point.

All automakers are rushing to add technologies that relieve responsibility from the driver.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Midnight Rider said:


> Sad to hear those types of stories especially when the lives that were lost were so young. Had the same experience with some friends from high school. Lost four friends due to car accidents which were do to reckless driving.
> 
> Three perished in one accident including my brother-in-laws sister due to excessive speed by the driver. He had a 1970 Plymouth Cuda with the 7.0L 426 cu in Hemi engine. There was a serious bend in the road as you entered our town and he lost control of the car crossing the over into the opposite lane and initially hitting a cement block in a parking lot which broke the steering system about 50 feet before the car went straight through a banking institution brick wall. It was ugly,... the cars front end was pushed up to the windshield. I knew someone who was at the scene of the accident and what he described seeing jolted me for weeks,... all three caskets at the funeral were closed. Actually, if it wasn't for the fact that I had a high school exam the next day I would have landed up in that car on the night of the accident and attended the party they were coming from.
> 
> ...


Those are chilling stories, bro. As one gets older, you kind of get used to people disappearing from your life through this or that tragedy or illness. It starts with grandparents, and bit by bit moves down through parents, aunts and uncles, and so on. But when you're young and people your own age are there one minute, and in a closed casket the next, that's different, and sometimes life-changing. It's hard to get used to peers dying too young. And I imagine it's not easy being a paramedic who comes upon such scenes all too regularly.


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