# Rivian R1T



## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Electric truck, what do you think?


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## Fred Gifford (Sep 2, 2019)

front end looks like it should be a talking toy truck on a childrens cartoon show .. hard pass on looks alone .. back to the drawing board ASAP


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

The individual wheel drive is a practical feature for the off-roaders and would be handy as a PTO.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I actually like the styling. It has some cool features, that pass through storage under the front of the bed is a neat idea.
Seventy grand USD is a steep price for a truck though.


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## DeeTee (Apr 16, 2018)

We recently went all electric with the Kona, and I love the look of these. I'd have one. The extra gadgets certainly don't hurt either.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

DeeTee said:


> We recently went all electric with the Kona, and I love the look of these. I'd have one. The extra gadgets certainly don't hurt either.


How do you charge it? Just regular voltage, or a quick charge at home?
Are there many/any charging stations available in your area?


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

My nephew is an electrical engineer for that company. He also previously worked for Tesla.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

DeeTee said:


> We recently went all electric with the Kona, and I love the look of these. I'd have one. The extra gadgets certainly don't hurt either.


My buddy has a Tesla. He was showing me how when he does a long road trip the GPS will highlight all the charging stations and build breaks into his trip of where the best spots to recharge are.

Does the Kona have a good charging infrastructure?


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## Grainslayer (Sep 26, 2016)

sulphur said:


> Seventy grand USD is a steep price for a truck though.


Doesnt seem to be stopping Fiat/Jeep's gladiator sales.But thats canadian pricing.


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## Grainslayer (Sep 26, 2016)

Fred Gifford said:


> front end looks like it should be a talking toy truck on a childrens cartoon show .. hard pass on looks alone .. back to the drawing board ASAP


I think we are going to see alot more non traditional front ends on electric vehicles since you dont need venting for radiators.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Yeah, they're achieving over 90% efficiency with these motors now and when you tack in the recharge while braking, it's even better...a lot less heat transfer when you compare gasoline at 16% efficiency.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I hate the front end and it needs a bigger bed.
I also think the off-roading purposes arent relevant to 99% of pickup truck buyers....at least around here, and especially at that price point. Most pickup truck owners i know just want something good on gravel roads, potholes and snowy roads, that can pull a small boat and is very reliable. 
Range will always be the concern.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Weird vehicle. Given the fact that it's electric, costs a bundle, and the interior seems antithetical to work-sites and those who work at them, I'm not sure who it is aimed at. A little on the luxury side for a work vehicle, but yet seems to want to aim for the pickup-truck crowd. Or have I woefully misunderstood who buys a pickup truck? Do soccer moms bring their kids back and forth to Kumon in pickup trucks? Do guys (and gals) in hardhats and grease-covered jumpsuits want or even notice all those luxury touches? Not that soccer moms shouldn't be able to haul stuff out to the city dump or that guys in hardhats don't deserve a nice telescoping steering column. But it seems to me that the cost of the thing for a working man could be reduced substantially by eliminating a few things, and a more minivan-oriented design might better serve the soccer mom.

As for looks it's no more or no less homely than anything else on the road. 340 miles (just under 550 kilometres) on a charge is nice.

Not having ever driven an e-vehicle or visited a charging station, is the charging plug socket universal? That is, is there any compatibility issue such that a person might pull into a charging station and find they can't plug in the charging cable for/to their vehicle? Is it like diesel vs regular gas, where the nozzle is a different size so you don't fill your car up with the wrong stuff?


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

mhammer said:


> is the charging plug socket universal?


I don't have much faith in universal interfaces in any electronic equipment. What I've observed in my lifetime, concerning plugs and connectors has been frustrating; for example: the USB, the only part that's the same is that it uses serial protocol for communication and even that can be tricky. Maybe it's motivated by capitalism.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Grainslayer said:


> Doesnt seem to be stopping Fiat/Jeep's gladiator sales.But thats canadian pricing.


Oh, there already are six figure trucks in Canada. The top trim level diesel units are around that price.
I'm pretty sure some of those Raptors and such run a high price tag too.



mhammer said:


> Weird vehicle. Given the fact that it's electric, costs a bundle, and the interior seems antithetical to work-sites and those who work at them, I'm not sure who it is aimed at. A little on the luxury side for a work vehicle, but yet seems to want to aim for the pickup-truck crowd. Or have I woefully misunderstood who buys a pickup truck? Do soccer moms bring their kids back and forth to Kumon in pickup trucks? Do guys (and gals) in hardhats and grease-covered jumpsuits want or even notice all those luxury touches? Not that soccer moms shouldn't be able to haul stuff out to the city dump or that guys in hardhats don't deserve a nice telescoping steering column. But it seems to me that the cost of the thing for a working man could be reduced substantially by eliminating a few things, and a more minivan-oriented design might better serve the soccer mom.
> 
> As for looks it's no more or no less homely than anything else on the road. 340 miles (just under 550 kilometres) on a charge is nice.
> 
> Not having ever driven an e-vehicle or visited a charging station, is the charging plug socket universal? That is, is there any compatibility issue such that a person might pull into a charging station and find they can't plug in the charging cable for/to their vehicle? Is it like diesel vs regular gas, where the nozzle is a different size so you don't fill your car up with the wrong stuff?


The interior does seem upscale for a truck, maybe there are more practical options in other trim levels, I'm not sure.
Top trim level, expensive trucks do exist in the market already now though, but there are other options available by those makers.



Paul Running said:


> I don't have much faith in universal interfaces in any electronic equipment. What I've observed in my lifetime, concerning plugs and connectors has been frustrating; for example: the USB, the only part that's the same is that it uses serial protocol for communication and even that can be tricky. Maybe it's motivated by capitalism.


Ya, just look at what apple does with it's charging cables, making them unique to their products.


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## Grainslayer (Sep 26, 2016)

sulphur said:


> Oh, there already are six figure trucks in Canada. The top trim level diesel units are around that price.
> I'm pretty sure some of those Raptors and such run a high price tag too.


I think raptors are 100k.I was going to mention F350 types for luxury but those are diesel.i dont think my buddies will be using a Rivian to tow their escavators any time soon


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Grainslayer said:


> I think raptors are 100k.I was going to mention F350 types for luxury but those are diesel.i dont think my buddies will be using a Rivian to tow their escavators any time soon


No, especially outfitted the way they are in that review.

I don't think that they know of the range when towing yet, I think that's what I heard in that vid.
The upcoming battery with the higher range in another ten grand, yikes.


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## Grainslayer (Sep 26, 2016)

Ive been a lifelong offroad enthusiast so this was cool considering how much ive probably spent fueling jeeps over the years..


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

sulphur said:


> I actually like the styling. It has some cool features, that pass through storage under the front of the bed is a neat idea.
> Seventy grand USD is a steep price for a truck though.


There are a lot of trucks that can be optioned past the $70K mark in the US these days. Except one doesn't have to buy gas for the Rivian, and will likely get state and federal rebates.

The biggest issue is the F150 Lightning, which has the HUGE advantage of the F150 name and history.

For comparison, the electric F150 tops out at $90K USD.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Grainslayer said:


> I think raptors are 100k.I was going to mention F350 types for luxury but those are diesel.i dont think my buddies will be using a Rivian to tow their escavators any time soon


Why not? Do they hate torque?


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

I really like hybrids, but I'm really not sold on full electrics as a viable solution to climate change. There's also a lot of things they seem to sell electrics on that either aren't actually new technology, or are outright lies. I appreciate the pioneer spirit, but this movement strikes me very much as not the best solution, but the first one, and ultimately the one our kids will be dealing with the consequences of.


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## DeeTee (Apr 16, 2018)

sulphur said:


> How do you charge it? Just regular voltage, or a quick charge at home?
> Are there many/any charging stations available in your area?


We don't put a lot of distance on it per day, so we get by fine just charging by the outlet occasionally. It's not often we'd need a full "tank" as it were. 



SWLABR said:


> My buddy has a Tesla. He was showing me how when he does a long road trip the GPS will highlight all the charging stations and build breaks into his trip of where the best spots to recharge are.
> 
> Does the Kona have a good charging infrastructure?


There are three levels of charger - Level 1, which is plugging into your home outlet. It takes a long time to go from 0% to 100%. Level 2 takes about 6 hours, and you can get one of these installed at home for a reasonable amount. The dealership also has one they'll let us use if we need. Level 3 is the fast one - it goes 0% to 100% in about an hour. 

We find that on long journeys, we just make sure our usual rest stops are at stops with charging stations. Plug it in for half an hour while you get a sandwich and use the facilities, and you're ready to go. Not too bad. You do need to plan, but there are lots of really useful apps for it. 

Tesla has plans to let everyone use their chargers, and that'll be a game changer.


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## DeeTee (Apr 16, 2018)

One thing I will add: I plug my car into my house, and control everything with my phone. The future is weird.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Rollin Hand said:


> There are a lot of trucks that can be optioned past the $70K mark in the US these days. Except one doesn't have to buy gas for the Rivian, and will likely get state and federal rebates.
> 
> The biggest issue is the F150 Lightning, which has the HUGE advantage of the F150 name and history.
> 
> For comparison, the electric F150 tops out at $90K USD.


Ya, I had mentioned that later in the thread, it's still a steep price for a truck, no mater what the powertrain.

The Ford does have the track record of the truck and the clout of the company, but it's still new technology to them and that platform.


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## Grainslayer (Sep 26, 2016)

DeeTee said:


> One thing I will add: I plug my car into my house, and control everything with my phone. The future is weird.


It baffles me what you can do on your phone..I can text on mine...thats about it so far


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

sulphur said:


> Ya, I had mentioned that later in the thread, it's still a steep price for a truck, no mater what the powertrain.
> 
> The Ford does have the track record of the truck and the clout of the company, but it's still new technology to them and that platform.


Unfortunately they also have a recent history of screwing up big product launches. 

The price of these things is going to come down a lot, and quickly. Ford is investing big in electric cars. Wave of the future.


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## Grainslayer (Sep 26, 2016)

Rollin Hand said:


> Unfortunately they also have a recent history of screwing up big product launches.


After the 6.0 diesel, I dont think I could EVER trust or spend money on a ford product...


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Rollin Hand said:


> Unfortunately they also have a recent history of screwing up big product launches.
> 
> The price of these things is going to come down a lot, and quickly. Ford is investing big in electric cars. Wave of the future.


Yes, the Bronco for one has had a lot of hiccups on its release. 
Some of that had to do with the pandemic and the supply chain too though.
The top/roof, on the otherhand, was a design flaw that's holding things up.


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## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

Wow ... as usual there's so much misinformation in these discussions. Not enough charging stations, incompatibility, batteries will pollute when spent after 100,000 miles, long recharging times, etc, etc ...

You probably don't remember, I know I don't, I wasn't there, when the Ford Model T came on the market. Basically the same apprehensions from horse buggy riders. And it probably took what 20-40 years before there were even proper roads, gas stations, tires that wouldn't blow every 10 miles, etc, etc.

Now in Canada, a ton of Petro Canada gas station has fast chargers. The norm just last year was 50kW,you can now find 100kW chargers.

Once you get an EV, you'll scratch your head wondering why you waited so long. They're not automobiles or trucks, they're spaceships ! And NO maintenance like in no oil change, no radiator, no exhaust system, no gas tank, no transmission oil change. All you have to worry about is tires, suspension and wipers.

An auto parts store has 4 or 5 of them on the road, all have over 200 000 km and still have 85% of their battery range.

Expensive ? Like anything else, it depends on what you want. I have a 2016 Spark EV that cost me $1 350 before taxes. 140 hp and 327 lb-ft of torque ! ! ! That thing is FUN FUN FUN and fills 90% of my driving needs.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

BGood said:


> Wow ... as usual there's so much misinformation in these discussions. Not enough charging stations, incompatibility, batteries will pollute when spent after 100,000 miles, long recharging times, etc, etc ...
> 
> You probably don't remember, I know I don't, I wasn't there, when the Ford Model T came on the market. Basically the same apprehensions from horse buggy riders. And it probably took what 20-40 years before there were even proper roads, gas stations, tires that wouldn't blow every 10 miles, etc, etc.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to be the one to break this to you, but the maintenance difference between an electric car and a new gas car is pretty minimal. You're really only getting away from oil changes, which at this point at only once a year for virtually all manufacturers.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

BGood said:


> Wow ... as usual there's so much misinformation in these discussions. Not enough charging stations, incompatibility, batteries will pollute when spent after 100,000 miles, long recharging times, etc, etc ...
> 
> You probably don't remember, I know I don't, I wasn't there, when the Ford Model T came on the market. Basically the same apprehensions from horse buggy riders. And it probably took what 20-40 years before there were even proper roads, gas stations, tires that wouldn't blow every 10 miles, etc, etc.
> 
> ...


I was under the impression that Tesla chargers were unique to their vehicles, they aren't?
Why make them unique to your vehicle and setup charging stations? So people will buy your vehicle.
That's capitalism. Fun, ain't it?


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## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

sulphur said:


> I was under the impression that Tesla chargers were unique to their vehicles, they aren't?
> Why make them unique to your vehicle and setup charging stations? So people will buy your vehicle.
> That's capitalism. Fun, ain't it?


I'M with you that Tesla's business model is the worst of what capitalism has to offer, almost as bas as Apple.

But Tesla is about to share its charging station network with the rest of the industry.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

BGood said:


> I'M with you that Tesla's business model is the worst of what capitalism has to offer, almost as bas as Apple.
> 
> But Tesla is about to share its charging station network with the rest of the industry.


Yes, all that was mentioned in this thread. I'm just owndering what misinformation you were getting at.
A question was asked of owners of electric vehicles and their charging options and they answered.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Rollin Hand said:


> The price of these things is going to come down a lot, and quickly.


I agree, the PC sector is similar; when an upgrade model is introduced, the originals are price slashed...trailing edge technology is much cheaper and usually very little change in performance.


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## DeeTee (Apr 16, 2018)

Paul Running said:


> I agree, the PC sector is similar; when an upgrade model is introduced, the originals are price slashed...trailing edge technology is much cheaper and usually very little change in performance.


Yeah, there's a reason we leased this one. I suspect it won't be worth nearly as much in three or four years.


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## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

sulphur said:


> I'm just owndering what misinformation you were getting at.





Diablo said:


> Range will always be the concern.





mhammer said:


> ... is there any compatibility issue such that a person might pull into a charging station and find they can't plug in the charging cable for/to their vehicle?





Grainslayer said:


> ....i dont think my buddies will be using a Rivian to tow their escavators any time soon





Okay Player said:


> ... I'm really not sold on full electrics as a viable solution to climate change. There's also a lot of things they seem to sell electrics on that either aren't actually new technology, or are outright lies. I appreciate the pioneer spirit, but this movement strikes me very much as not the best solution, but the first one, and ultimately the one our kids will be dealing with the consequences of.


I said that there's much misinformation in "these discussions". Maybe I should have said in these "kind of" discussions. Lost in translation maybe ?


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

BGood said:


> I said that there's much misinformation in "these discussions". Maybe I should have said in these "kind of" discussions. Lost in translation maybe ?


I questioned about charging stations as the range would come into play if there was an issue.
I think the main utilization of EVs right now are in urban areas, but if that's your only vehicle, you may need to do a road trip with it too.
There is some compatibility issues, such as Tesla. I feel that the government dropped the ball on that not mandating a standardized system.

There are concerns with electric vehicles if your power is coming from a fossil fuel powered electric generating source.

It's a discussion and all points can be raised and dicussed. That's the point.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

BGood said:


> I said that there's much misinformation in "these discussions". Maybe I should have said in these "kind of" discussions. Lost in translation maybe ?


The only real misinformation I've seen in the thread is those people claiming the maintenance burden is substantially lower.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Okay Player said:


> The only real misinformation I've seen in the thread is those people claiming the maintenance burden is substantially lower.


Yeah, I believe that the bill of material for this model would consume a fair bit of hard drive space...many parts.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Paul Running said:


> Yeah, I believe that the bill of material for this model would consume a fair bit of hard drive space...many parts.


They still have all the parts a traditional car has less the engine. You still have, coolant, transmission fluid and brake work. If you live in a cursed place that uses road salt electrics/hybrids are typically harder on brakes than their fuel burning counterparts because the brakes sit inactive most of the time which leads to seized brake pads. Contrary to the misleading sales literature, there's no free lunches.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

BGood said:


> I said that there's much misinformation in "these discussions". Maybe I should have said in these "kind of" discussions. Lost in translation maybe ?


For the record, concerns aren’t misinformation.
In my post you quoted re:range, I didn’t post any imformation at all. Just the common observation that a car with a range of 300ish kms is a deal breaker for many, as people don’t want to be forced to take an hour break several times in a day if they drive a lot, or may have concerns with finding chargers in remote places.


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## DeeTee (Apr 16, 2018)

I don't think there's any misinformation here. I was asked some questions about electric car ownership, and I was happy to answer them. I'd be happy to answer more. Not everything is an attack.


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## Grainslayer (Sep 26, 2016)

BGood said:


> You probably don't remember, I know I don't, I wasn't there, when the Ford Model T came on the market. Basically the same apprehensions from horse buggy riders. And it probably took what 20-40 years before there were even proper roads, gas stations, tires that wouldn't blow every 10 miles, etc, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ​


​This sounds like misinformation to me


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## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

Okay Player said:


> If you live in a cursed place that uses road salt electrics/hybrids are typically harder on brakes than their fuel burning counterparts because the brakes sit inactive most of the time which leads to seized brake pads. Contrary to the misleading sales literature, there's no free lunches.


Here's one ... You don't HAVE TO use regeneration only, you can choose to use your brakes like on a regular car, with the added function that when you press the pedal, it still regenerate the battery. So this way your brakes get used like any other car.


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## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

Grainslayer said:


> ​This sounds like misinformation to me


What is ?


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

BGood said:


> Here's one ... You don't HAVE TO use regeneration only, you can choose to use your brakes like on a regular car, with the added function that when you press the pedal, it still regenerate the battery. So this way your brakes get used like any other car.


I'm aware. I work on the systems. I also spend a lot of time explaining to customers why "Not using the brakes as much." doesn't equate to "Not requiring less service."


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

It looks like something out of Thomas the Tank Engine - which is still better than the Tesla.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Not much daylight showing through the front-end of the chassis on the Rivian:


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## polyslax (May 15, 2020)

Pretty in-depth review of the Rivian here:


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

polyslax said:


> Pretty in-depth review of the Rivian here:


A lot of cool features. Not bad looking except that I wish the headlight clusters were horizontal rather than vertical. There's a lot of little motors and switches to break and I absolutely detest the screen-based controls - talk about accidents waiting to happen. I also wonder at how many things not driving-related are sucking up juice that you might need to get home. As I did say there are a lot of very handy features (love the flashlight in the door) - I wonder how many are standard features as they must add to the cost pretty substantially. I was also surprised that 38 minutes of the review were given over to the gimmicky stuff and only 7 to the actual driving - its main function is transportation after all. A far cry from "here's what's under the hood and in the trunk. Ok let's take her for a spin!".

It's a cell phone that goes 100 mph!

Despite my reservations I take it over the Tesla hands down.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

It's a 140 mile trip through mountains to the city for me. Plus the running around town. 300 mile range just ain't going to do it. That range is when the batteries are new with no degradation too. Start running the heater, wipers, etc at the same time and a day trip becomes a weekend adventure, so add in the price of over night accomodation. The price of electricity isn't cheap either.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Jim DaddyO said:


> It's a 140 mile trip through mountains to the city for me. Plus the running around town. 300 mile range just ain't going to do it.


You do the return trip and the running around town all with no breaks? It's not hard to stretch a bite and a whiz into the time it takes to do a quick charge.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Seeing who started this thread, I don't recall seeing @sulphur around for a bit. You OK, Jock? Or am I just missing the right threads 😶


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

jb welder said:


> You do the return trip and the running around town all with no breaks?


Pretty much. In, 3 or 4 places to shop, gas up, maybe grab a quick bite, back home. Too many people in the city for my comfort level. We usually stop at Walmart first, then Food Basics, by that time I have had enough of people, traffic, noise and the city in general.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

The people who these won't work well for think everyone else lives like them.. in the country, mountains, pulling horse trailers to market etc.. keep your gas engine trucks.

The people that these work well for think everyone else lives like them.... under 100km per day, seldom leave the city, short trips, etc.
Get an EV.

The 2nd group outnumber the first group, and the market is huge.

And yes, "soccer moms" do drive big fucking trucks to soccer, hockey, groceries school etc.
Especially in the US, and in the big cities where everyone is rich because their houses are now worth 2 million dollars. And these trucks never see a 2x4 or a bag of cement. This EV truck is meant for them. And where there's a truck, there is soon a luxury SUV.

Oh, and maintenance... short term, the same. Long term, well, fuel pumps, water pumps, plugs, and timing chains, fuel injector systems... these things cost money. On a well maintained car they typically last 100, 000 miles or so now. Skip a few oil changes, or let the oil get low while pulling a boat up a mountain, and things can get costly pretty fast. 
Not sure what EV batteries cost to replace, or the motors.. time will tell I suppose.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

tomee2 said:


> The people who these won't work well for think everyone else lives like them.. in the country, mountains, pulling horse trailers to market etc.. keep your gas engine trucks.
> 
> The people that these work well for think everyone else lives like them.... under 100km per day, seldom leave the city, short trips, etc.
> Get an EV.


I don't agree with that generalization.

I think the EV is a good idea and for those it suits, it probably is a better idea. Even if you need the range of a gas vehicle, as in my case, a small commuter EV would be good for local running around. It better be good in snow though. I wouldn't want an EV truck, I have a truck. It has 4 wheel drive, that I use, and studded winter tires. Personally, a small car would suppliment in nicely. 

Now if I could recharge it with solar (inexpesively and uncomplicated), that would be a nice next evolution of them. My vehicle sits days at a time often because I don't go anywhere. There are already places with grid problems, brown outs, rolling blackouts. Plugging in cars isn't goin to help that situation at all. Not here, we have tons of hydro electric, but there are places where the infrastructure is already taxed.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I don't agree with that generalization.
> 
> I think the EV is a good idea and for those it suits, it probably is a better idea. Even if you need the range of a gas vehicle, as in my case, a small commuter EV would be good for local running around. It better be good in snow though. I wouldn't want an EV truck, I have a truck. It has 4 wheel drive, that I use, and studded winter tires. Personally, a small car would suppliment in nicely.
> 
> Now if I could recharge it with solar (inexpesively and uncomplicated), that would be a nice next evolution of them. My vehicle sits days at a time often because I don't go anywhere. There are already places with grid problems, brown outs, rolling blackouts. Plugging in cars isn't goin to help that situation at all. Not here, we have tons of hydro electric, but there are places where the infrastructure is already taxed.


You're right about taxing the grid if the majority of cars went electric, but the bulk demand gets placed overnight when demand dips. So yes the grid needs upgrading but not as much as the "what if everyone plugged in at once" scenario suggests. Solar provides about 1kW maximum energy to the earth's surface. A few square meters might charge a car in a few days, but it might take weeks too. Haven't worked that out.

And it was a mostly tongue in cheek generalization based on most of the previous comments, and frpm discussion I have with people or reading comments on YouTube videos etc.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Grid will need updating regardless.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I can't help but think that for anyone who genuinely wants an EV for their daily transportation there must be (or should be) a Public Transit option. I mean, aren't these the people who want self-driving autos so they can use their iphones?


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