# Ibanez Tube Screamer TS808 reissue .... vs ..... TS808HW which is Hand Wired



## dino

Do you think the TS808HW is more of a collectors item than a sound difference? The price is Approx. $400 + with tax vs the Reissue 808 at 200 + with tax. 
Is the Hand Wired Tube Screamer worth the extra $200 dollars. 

Thanks, Dino


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## GuitarsCanada

They are both pretty expensive in my view, but lets see if someone can tell us if that wiring is worth the increase.


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## Gene Machine

I did a mod on my TS9, and I think there is a significant difference, but not $300 worth.

There is a mod to the output filter (can't remember it now, but google search would find it) and you change the frequency of the output filter to be a bit brighter, less muddy. I did it with a spare resistor I had lying around, and to my ears there was a noticeable difference. But this mod is really easy witha bit of electronics know how.

I don't believe that the IC Amplifier inside makes any difference in tone. Unless there is a huge difference in noise characteristics, any bandwidth / slew rate differences between the two chips would be indistinguishable to human ears. (or dogs ears, or bat ears). So I personallyy don't buy the snake oil of a new chip. 

But a used TS9 and a simple mod. yeah, I think it will get you close enough to a TS808 that no one would know the difference.


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## hollowbody

I forget who it was, but an online guitar site (maybe Legendary Tones) did a review of a bunch of different TS pedals and the handwired did VERY well. It was a blind test if I recall correctly.


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## dino

So now were on the subject of the 808's , has anybody tried the maxon OD808 ? would it give the TS808 reissue a good run for its money?


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## jimihendrix

[video=youtube;WtEGu1ag0-k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtEGu1ag0-k&feature=related[/video]


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## hollowbody

dino said:


> So now were on the subject of the 808's , has anybody tried the maxon OD808 ? would it give the TS808 reissue a good run for its money?


I've heard that the Maxon 808 is "better" than the TS808, but I have not experience with either directly. I've used reissue TS9s, modded TS9s and vintage TS9s, so I'm really familiar with what they can do, but 808s are uncharted territory for me. I do want a Maxon OD808 though.


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## screamingdaisy

808s are a bit darker/smoother than TS9s, which are a little brighter/clearer.

As for which is better, it depends on your amp. My one amp (Dual Rectifier) loves the OD808 but doesn't perform as well with brighter TS style pedals (I don't have an actual TS9 any more... just some pedals that are somewhat similar). My Mark V on the other hand doesn't like the OD808 all that much and prefers the brighter TS style pedals.

It's probably why there's about a million tubescreamer clones out there, all with someone claiming that this one blows away that one while someone else thinks they both suck...


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## mhammer

The difference between the original 808 and the TS9 is a couple of component values on the output. The original 808 tends to load a little more, and that slight shaving off of high end makes it seem "warmer" to some people in some circumstances; largely, I suspect, when the pedal is driving the amp directly, and not passing through another pedal first.

The trouble with any and all TS models and derivatives is that they rely fundamentally on toneshaping before and after the clipping stage, and the caps used to do that have considerable variation within their stated tolerance. Perhaps (and I have no confirmation or knowledge thereof) the "handwired" TS uses components that are selected to be spot on their nominal value, and the extra time/labour involved in picking things out of a bin and measuring them is built into the price (though not enough to justify it).

Either way, there is nothing to stop any of you from picking up the cheapest TS clone/model you can find (e.g., an Ibanez Soundtank) and simply replacing the offending parts with 808-spec ones.

You can also start by reading RG Keen's timeless classic _The Technology of the Tube Screamer _( The Technology of the Tube Screamer ), wherein all secrets (of both the TS and pretty much all subsequent derivatives) are revealed.


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## hollowbody

screamingdaisy said:


> 808s are a bit darker/smoother than TS9s, which are a little brighter/clearer.





mhammer said:


> The difference between the original 808 and the TS9 is a couple of component values on the output. The original 808 tends to load a little more, and that slight shaving off of high end makes it seem "warmer" to some people in some circumstances; largely, I suspect, when the pedal is driving the amp directly, and not passing through another pedal first.


Hmm, based on that, I probably won't like the 808s as much as the TS9. I like the bite in a TS9 and if I got something missing that, I'd probably be disappointed. Besides, my JTM is a pretty dark amp to begin with and the overdrive it creates is of the "smooth" variety already. That's probably why I liked using my vintage TS9s with it so much. I'll have to hunt down one of the newer Maxon TS-9s maybe, so try to find another Analogman one.


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## mhammer

Oh I'm sure you can get all of the "bite". Don't necessarily equate "smooth" with dull-sounding.

At the same time, it is always important to keep in mind that any distortion-oriented device provides *harmonics of what you feed it*. So the harmonic content of Strat pickups may sound somewhat harsh to a person using a TS-9 but suitably round and vocal with a TS808 output structure, while a TS-9 may well liven up humbuckers more than a TS808 does. I don't think either one is "better", but it is easy to imagine any given player may find the one more suited to what they feed it and what they hope to hear than the other one. Same goes for chip choices in a TS clone.


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## hollowbody

mhammer said:


> Oh I'm sure you can get all of the "bite". Don't necessarily equate "smooth" with dull-sounding.
> 
> At the same time, it is always important to keep in mind that any distortion-oriented device provides *harmonics of what you feed it*. So the harmonic content of Strat pickups may sound somewhat harsh to a person using a TS-9 but suitably round and vocal with a TS808 output structure, while *a TS-9 may well liven up humbuckers more than a TS808 does.* I don't think either one is "better", but it is easy to imagine any given player may find the one more suited to what they feed it and what they hope to hear than the other one. Same goes for chip choices in a TS clone.


Agreed. Thanks for calling me on ambiguity and generalization 

I'm using humbuckers most at the moment, so I think maybe the section of your post that I bolded applies best to me. Also, I am familiar with the TS9 and know what it does and what it can and cannot do in conjunction with my amp, my guitars and my pickups. I do still want to give an 808 a go and see what I think, but I have the luxury of falling back on the TS9 sound if I don't like the 808.


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## Greenbacker

I've owned them all. This includes a TS9, TS808, two OD808s, a Keeley TS808 and an Aanalogman/Maxon OD9 Silver (plus many variants). They are all very similar. Unfortunately I owned them all at different times so it is hard to tell the subtle differences between them. I feel like the TS9 has more drive; more of a distortion like quality. 

Not that you asked, but what I kept for a while at the end of my searches was a Jekyll & Hyde (The one side is a super nice sounding 808 clone believe it or not). Really nice though and a great buffer. I eventually bought an Xotic AC Booster though. That was the end of the line for me. I've also got a FullDrive II which is, of course, another 808 variant.


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## mhammer

The guy who penned tha rticle on Tube Screamers, that I linked to, is the guy who does a big chunk of the designing for Visual Sound these days. I don't think he designed the J & S, but he did design the Open Road overdrive they now sell, which is an optimized TS. So, of course, are things like the Hermida Zendrive, etc.


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## dino

More info needed please on the tubescreamer! I have a chance to purchase a TS9 modded to the 808. The person says it has the more or less mod done also. Can someone explain what this more or less mod is and what difference it makes to the sound of the pedal.
Thanks, Dino


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## mhammer

"More or less" what?


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## hollowbody

mhammer said:


> "More or less" what?


I'm guessing either mids or gain. 

Dino, the seller should really be the one to explain the mods to you. If they are mods he's come up with himself, no one else can help you. If it's a popular mod that he's done, he can provide you with a link to the mod on the net, or at least the name of the person who designed it.


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## dino

The seller told me the more or less mod is quite well known by people who have had their tube screamers modded. He explained it as it has less squeal or treble so a bit more bass and it has more gain .....


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## Greenbacker

I've always heard of the _More and Less_ mod referring to the Gain sweep: More drive than stock on one end of the dial and cleaner than stock on the other.


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## mhammer

Ahhhh, okay now I get it. That's a very simple thing to achieve if you have described it accurately.

In the stock TS7/9/808, the 500k gain pot is in series with a 51k fixed resistor. A stock TS will have a minimum gain of 11.9x, and a maximum gain of 118.2x. If you replace the 51k fixed resistor (green-brown-orange) with a 39k (orange-white-orange) and a 1 meg pot, the gain will now range from 9.3x to 222.1x. Note that, unless you change the 51pf cap as well, at maximum gain the treble rolloff will be greater; moving from 5.6khz down to 3khz. That in itself is not a problem, but you will need to adapt your tone setting as a result. Perhaps best to replace the 51pf cap with a 33pf or 27pf cap.

That change does nothing to the bottom end, though. Increasing the bottom end requires making the value of the .047uf cap larger/higher. Stock, they roll off the bass starting around 720hz. That's high up, but keep in mind it is a shallow rolloff. The purpose of the rolloff is to compensate for the fact that the guitar signal is generally much higher amplitude lower down in the spectrum, and will result in more clipping for bass notes than for upper ones as a result. The "smoother" clipping of the TS results from achieving a similar degree of clipping for all notes across the fretboard, albeit at a cost of bottom end.

The vast majority of TS-derived pedals that aim for greater bass use a larger cap value than .047uf. There are two ways you can do this. One is to provide two gain-setting paths - stock, and a separate one for lower-end - or to change the existing gain setting path. If you replace the .047uf cap with a .22uf component, that drops your rolloff point down to 154hz. That gives you your low end but keep in mind that the differential gain applied across the fretboard will be eiminated and at higher gain settings it will stop sounding TS-like. If you leave the 4k7/.047uf network in place, and simply tack on a 10k/.1uf network in parallel, you end up with a lesser amount of gain applied to the bottom end at all gain settings. If you plot out the function, its like the difference between a hill the slopes and just keep going at an angle, and one that descends at an angle, but flattens out 2/3 of the way along. Not sure if that's clear.

You can see the location of that .047uf and 51pf cap here:


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## ONFLOOR AUDIO

dino said:


> More info needed please on the tubescreamer! I have a chance to purchase a TS9 modded to the 808. The person says it has the more or less mod done also. Can someone explain what this more or less mod is and what difference it makes to the sound of the pedal.
> Thanks, Dino


Whats he asking for the pedal , and who did the mod work ??


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## mhammer

Rereading the thread made me realize that I may have misinterpreted things.

Unfortunately, that stems from the widespread misuse of the term "gain". When I think "gain", I think how much the amplitude of the incoming signal is increased. Because that is loosely associated with the likelihood of clipping, a lot of less-informed musicians take "gain" to be equivalent to distortion, even though you can get distortion with very modest amounts of gain, or high gain with little clipping, if you play your cards right (e.g., many ultra-clean voice mic preamps apply more gain than is found in a lot of distortions).

So, the less-and-more mod may well involve simply replacing the 500k pot with 1 meg and sticking 4 clipping diodes in to replace the 2 currently in there. This will have the effect of raising the clipping threshold, such that you can still get reasonable boost before clipping sets in. By use of a 1 meg gain pot in this configuration, though, the increased gain available will be sufficient to exceed the clipping threshold of those 4 diodes, yielding more distortin than a stock TS. You might realize that a stock Boss SD-1 utilizes 3 clipping diodes, rather than 2, and a 1 meg gain pot. Some folks prefer the SD-1 to the TS.


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## Tyler Savage

My guitar player has a jtm45 and it responds incredibly well to Keeley Modified TS9. Anytime someone borrows his setup they are blown away at how organic they work with each other.
He eq's his amp fairly dark, and the ts9 reacts quite well .. however, his clean sound isn't that great when he rolls off the volume. He never plays clean, so - problem solved!

But I often have to go back and forth, and I find the OD808 is better suited to this. It's got some great crunch, but is a bit "fuzzier" when compared to the ts9 as "edgier". I would say the od808 sounds more 'vintage' with the ts9 sounding more 'modern', but the differences are fairly subtle.
I just like how the od808 responds to low volume as well. I find it adds a nice warmth to my clean playing so much that I just keep it on all the time


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## mhammer

What I find funny about your post is that the only difference between a TS9 and an OD808 is the input and output buffers, which are not intended to colour the sound in any way. Personally, I think many of the comparisons people make tend to be between one copy of this pedal and one copy of that one, rather than between multiple copies of pedal X and multiple copies of pedal Y. I'm not making fun of anyone or dissing them. Rather, it's a matter of having a realistic appreciation of the role component tolerances play, the tricks ears play, and the difference between an example of something and the constant features of all instances of that thing. Few of us ever get to sit down with 10 copies of of a given pedal and A/B them with 10 copies of another one. And let's face it, if you were from some obscure province in China and had never been outside your village, comparing Pamela Anderson and Louie Anderson would not give you the most accurate reflection of what typical male-female differences were in non-Asians.


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## dino

I am copying the previous owner of the TS9's pedal response to the question I asked about the 898 mod and the more/less mod.
The more/less mod is pretty self-explanatory... It widens the range of the drive pot. If you research it on the web you will find some info... Here's what Robert Keeley says about it:
"It allows you to have less distortion in the lower settings of the Drive control and more distortion and saturation in the higher setting of the control. All of the stock TS9 settings are possible throughout the midrange of the control. Plus, none of the singing sweet midrange tone is gone! CLEANER when turned down and TWICE THE GAIN AND DRIVE when turned up with all of the stock TS808 sounds in the middle. Beautiful vocal sweet woman tone in the mid-section!


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## mhammer

Okay, then it IS only a change in the value of the pot and fixed resistor in series with it. After looking at a number of other pedal designs, there is an excellent (95% or better) chance that the resistor is change from 51k to 33k and the pot changes from 500k to 1meg. That will do absolutely everything Bob Keeley describes.


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