# May be laying lower for a while



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I got a call today about a possible job, after having been with the same organization for 17 years. No great surprise that my regular presence here is a result of being sorely underutilized at work by managers won't give me permission to start projects on my own, but can't get their act together to assign any. So, while the thought of changing organizations (especially where I would be going) is daunting, and I'd miss my time here, doing something more useful for a change would be nice. There's no promotion or pay change involved, but I'd be back to one bus to work, instead of 2, and once again able to have lunch with my wife, or stroll over to Spaceman Music when I'm not having lunch with her.

The job itself is kinda cool, though I suppose of rather narrow appeal, as intellectual challenges go. I'd be part of a team involved in this: http://www.tbs-sct.gc.ca/lrco-rtor/relations/consult/psecarpe-lerspres01-eng.asp The overriding task is to come up with methodologies for being able to identify equivalences (and justify nonequivalences) between federal jobs held predominantly by women, and jobs held predominantly by men, that might pay more. The legislation is sitting there, waiting to be put into effect. What is lacking is a methodology for doing so. It's the type of methodological/measurement challenge that I like: how would I know when and how _this_ is equal to_ that?_ And that sort of methodological challenge is also qualified by simultaneously feeling and _being_ fair to those affected by it, while not costing the treasury more than it should. In a sense, the most fairness for the lowest cost.

I hope this works out. I'll learn more next week. If it goes through, I'll still be around, just not as much during the day. If it doesn't work out, I still have my current job to come back to. Wish me luck.


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## Option1 (May 26, 2012)

The very best of luck to you. Certainly sounds like an interesting challenge.

Neil


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

Go for it Mark. Life is too short and sounds like there are a few perks i.e. Spaceman Music, lunch with your better half. Good luck in your decision making.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

TL;DNR 

(just kidding)

:sFun_dancing:

Good luck Mark! A change is as good as a rest so they say.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Best of luck, hope it works out as you desire.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Good luck. It sounds like you've been ready for change for a while.

(can't they just associate a value a job's worth and then place an income to it - and whoever works the job gets paid that amount regardless of sex?)

Hey, since I just solved this massive issue, does this mean you can spend more time on the forum????


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

adcandour said:


> (can't they just associate a value a job's worth and then place an income to it - and whoever works the job gets paid that amount regardless of sex?)


Thanks for the good wishes, gents. Much appreciated. I'm pathologically loyal, so when it comes to leaving my co-workers, I need all the encouragement (and shoving) I can get. BUt it will be nice to do something for people, for a change, instead of simply feeding the reporting machine.

And yes, they _can_ figure out a job's worth and place an income on it. The challenge is that the worth has not always been seen accurately, when mostly one sex or the other did that job, and there is a lot of catching up to do. Besides, there is the not-so-small matter of determining the true worth of the job well _after_ the person has been in it for a while. People_ do _get picky about back-pay owed, and the people who owe it to them get picky about how much it oughta be. "Fair" is always expensive, which is why it doesn't happen as often as it should, in a just world. And like I say, part of my mission would be to find the most fairness for the least cost. It's a bit like those puzzles where you have two pieces of rope hanging from the ceiling, long enough that they can be tied together, but just far enough apart that you can't reach the end of the second one while pulling the first out to its maximum length. For now, I guess I should start reading and committing the legislation to memory, since that will be the guiding force behind it all.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

all this talk about sex at work. if you saw the folks i work with, you wouldnt want any sex from them. good luck on your new job!


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## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

Hope it works out for you regardless of which way things go. As far as choosing a "fair" candidate, I don't think they could do better judging by your participation here.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

The place that I work had people in charge for decades who paid women less than men for doing the same job. They lost a huge pay equity case over 2 years ago and some people still haven't been paid...not in appeal, just crappy corporation doing crappy things to working people. Then, the corporation takes the numbers of the money owed and puts it on the books to make the current business look bad when it was just them being scum in the first place.

That aside, best of luck - I hope it works out for you. Nothing like having something to motivate you!


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Best of luck either way Mark!


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Good luck with the change in work, Mark.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

It does a person good to take on new challenges every few years in their career. Best of luck to you, Mark.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

Enjoy the change I've walked into and out of many positions, some 2 years long some longer. I always found the change renewed me as a person. My longest job???? was for 21 years and I had the privilege of spending the companies money on major and minor projects with no questions asked nor any complaint about how much I spent or what I spent the money on, as long as the value of the company grew from my endeavors. Sadly the owners decided to split the company up and sell off the pieces. Onward to the present day always something new.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

You gotta like what you do--best wishes for the new opportunity.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Best of luck.

Once upon a time I was involved in the implementation of employment equity in Ontario, labour side, as I was working as a union rep for a major (mostly) public sector union. It would seem that Ontario's efforts haven't been as successful as was hoped. I hope you do better.

Peace, Mooh.


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

Best of luck, hope it works out great for you!


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Best of luck and enjoy the change.

Cheers

Dave


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Best of luck sir.

I enjoy reading your posts.

Drop in when you can.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I think when to comes total number of words posted, you are way beyond first. I tried reading the executive summary of the job and half way through my brain exploded. Good Luck with the new work. Me? I'm cruising to the retirement finish line - only 329 days, 18 hrs, and 35 minutes.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Thanks. I've got a kid starting at Dal in 57 days. If there IS any sort of retirement finish line, I'll be crawling towards it in 4 years.

When I started in government, it took me at least 2-3 years to stop feeling like I was a social anthropologist parachuted into a jungle somewhere to observe a tribe that had not encountered "civilization" yet. So, exploding head? I empathize completely.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

Best of luck. I know the feeling of being underutilized at work. Makes for very long and unfulfilling days.


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## brimc76 (Feb 14, 2008)

Best of Luck to you mhammer.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

I hope the new job prospect works out for you Mark. Out of curiosity though, why would the methodology required federally be any different than the proxy comparison method already in use provincially? e.g. http://www.payequity.gov.on.ca/en/pdf/proxycomp.pdf

I worked through this process many years ago as a Personnel & Policy board member, albeit on a much smaller scale, with the organization I was with at the time and it wasn't rocket surgery. Again, just curious about what might be different with the situation you're interested in sorting out...


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I suspect it may have to do with the inclusion of "market factors" in the calculation, such factors being how pay would be adjusted to assist recruitment and retention where there was a skill shortage. But I guess I'll need to read the PDF you linked to in order to be sure. Thanks for that.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

You're welcome Mark, though that link was just a primer. For a fairly recent review of the pay equity experiment in Ontario after 2 decades, try this: http://yorkspace.library.yorku.ca/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10315/6303/HRM0025.pdf?sequence=1 

Again, best of luck.

Steve


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Thanks again. I should add that the federal legislation has an anticipatory component to it as well. As opposed to pay equity being adjusted on a complaints-driven basis, where $2B "surprises" crop up, the idea was to have a system in place that would allow departments to do long-term budgetary planning, based on the knowledge of what X number of FTEs in some brand new gender-dominated (but equitable-pay adjusted) occupational group would cost them.

But I think you've given me my coffee-break reading for the next few days! :sSc_eeksign:


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Should make you're math a lot easier with pay equity, no? You won't have to factor in percentage of male vs female, all you'll need to know is overall qty.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I'm told that it presently only pertains to about 5 or 6 "occupational groups" out of the 70-75 that exist in the federal public service. But since there will always be new groups added, as changes occur in technology or the services to be provided, any formula for determining equal pay for work of equal value will ultimately pertain to more than that handful of job groups over the long haul. That is offset by changes, over time, in the relative presence of men and women in many jobs.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Maybe I am way off here but wasn't pay equity dealt with 30 years ago


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I wish I could say "Yes", but nope. Certainly not 30 years ago, and not in any universal fashion. Been dealt with in patchwork fashion, employer by employer, as complaints came along. It took about 12 years for the federal government to settle on back pay in one case involving a single union about 12 years ago.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2014)

Mark, I'm a big fan of sweeping career changes -- I say go for it man!


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Maybe I am way off here but wasn't pay equity dealt with 30 years ago


Yes and no. To some extent, the situation _at that time w_as addressed on an ad hoc basis but gender divisions in the labour market continues to change so I believe this new initiative would be aimed at addressing future considerations _proactively_...unless I'm talking out my ass again.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

StevieMac said:


> Yes and no. To some extent, the situation _at that time w_as addressed on an ad hoc basis but gender divisions in the labour market continues to change so I believe this new initiative would be aimed at addressing future considerations _proactively_...unless I'm talking out my ass again.


No, that's a pretty fair summary. As I understand it, the challenge is to generate systematic methods that would allow for any new category of job that ends up being mostly women (e.g., the way that HR currently is) to be easily pegged as being equal in value to existing male-dominated job X, in a way that lets the unions say "Yeah, that sounds about right", and lets the employer (Treasury Board) say "Yeah, that sounds like something we think we can afford over the long haul.", receives the blessings of Status of Women Canada, and does right by everybody, even though neither party may have thought about it before, and nothing had to go by a tribunal.



> Mark, I'm a big fan of sweeping career changes -- I say go for it man!


I wouldn't call it a "sweeping career change" - that would be getting my dream job at Lee Valley Tools or returning to university teaching - but it _will_ be a nice vacation.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Umm, you may have noticed that I have NOT been "laying low". This is just to assure you that I will _eventually_ be doing so, as promised, but am presently waiting for my security clearance, before I can start, which can take a while - up to several months in some instances. In my own case, I don't expect it to take quite that long, since I've been in the same job, and living at the same address for the 10-year period they inquire about, and have not travelled outside Canada or the US for any purpose, during that time. If I had gone abroad to university in Kiev or Tripoli, or emigrated from Sudan 7 years ago, it would take CSIS a lot more time and effort to check up on me. In the meantime, I am just hanging around, making a pest of myself, both here and at work.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

It can be rushed in an emergency but usually takes 2 or 3 months for a level 2, if that's what you need. A stable background certainly helps.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Umm, you may have noticed that I have NOT been "laying low".


You're the yappiest "laying low" person I've ever seen.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Which is why I felt compelled to clarify that I'm still waiting. :sSig_DOH:

Co-workers keep asking me "Hey, I thought you were going over to...?", and I have to tell them "Soon. I'm waiting."

In the meantime, little work to do, and lots of time to blab here. It will change. I promise.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

mhammer said:


> Which is why I felt compelled to clarify that I'm still waiting. :sSig_DOH:
> 
> Co-workers keep asking me "Hey, I thought you were going over to...?", and I have to tell them "Soon. I'm waiting."
> 
> In the meantime, little work to do, and lots of time to blab here. It will change. I promise.


Keep blabbing here as long as you can, many of us enjoy your knowledge base and insight.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Finally here. My security clearance has finished, and I start work tomorrow. I'll be around in the evenings, and maybe over lunch, but should be racking up fewer posts-per-day for the next while.

Thanks for everyone's patience, and all the good wishes.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

You got security clearance?!?!? God help us all...

Sorry, just kidding. Wishing you all the best in your new position.


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2014)

mhammer said:


> Finally here. My security clearance has finished, and I start work tomorrow. I'll be around in the evenings, and maybe over lunch, but should be racking up fewer posts-per-day for the next while.
> 
> Thanks for everyone's patience, and all the good wishes.


Best of luck with the new position!


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I wish you all the best. I've enjoyed your contributions here as much or more than anyone's. You're an asset here and I'm sure you will be on your new job.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

Enjoy the new position and keep us in the loop when possible. I too appreciate your contributions.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Congrats on the new job! 

Like Mooh, I've always enjoyed your posts, but I guess our loss is someone else's gain.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

The very best in your new job.:congratulatory: I hope it works out very well for you. Don't forget us back here at GC, though.


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## Option1 (May 26, 2012)

Congratulations on the clearance finally coming through, Mark. Enjoy the new job, and I'm sure after you've settled in (i.e. in a week) and convinced them of your value you can come back here and post constantly. 

Neil


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