# The end of tubes?



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

With solid state making great progress towards mimicking tubes to the point of getting harder to distinguish and the nutube technology being actual tubes, does anyone think that the old school tubes is finally on its way out? I know we've been hearing this for decades but is there a point where it will be a no brainer?
I'm especially intrigued about nutube technology. Is this a real tube or is it just some kind of solid state trickery that pretends to be a tube? I will be jumping in to this new technology with a smaller combo amp. 
Although I won't be giving up on conventional tubes yet. I've got a nice tube head that I love and I'm currently in the process of adding a 1x12 combo amp to my collection. 
I'm also seriously looking at this:

Vox - MVX150C1 150W 1x12 Combo Amp with Nutube

It uses nutube tubes for both pre and power. Although its 150 watts so I suspect that it is utilizing class D power in combination with the tube. How does that work? Some kind of hybrid. So will this be exactly like our old beloved tubes. I am skeptical.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Nope. It won't be out until more than half of the people playing guitar don't remember or care about tube amps and they were raised on their phones/ipads/laptops as means to amplify their guitar. Perhaps tubes will stop being manufactured before that happens, but *that* would also depend on the hi-fi audio world.

Given there's a lot of guitarists in their mid 20's who still prefer tube amps, you'll see them around for a while yet.

The hard part will be finding competent people to work on them


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Tubes will be around until solid state technology can accurately emulate the effects of natural tube distortion. When you can use a SS amp and go from clean to a modeled tube distortion by simply adjusting guitar volume, attack and how hard you hit the strings...then people might start to switch. There's an organic factor with tube amps that SS has never been able to capture despite the continued improvement they've undergone.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

JBFairthorne said:


> Tubes will be around until solid state technology can accurately emulate the effects of natural tube distortion. When you can use a SS amp and go from clean to a modeled tube distortion by simply adjusting guitar volume, attack and how hard you hit the strings...then people might start to switch. There's an organic factor with tube amps that SS has never been able to capture despite the continued improvement they've undergone.



Many say that that time has come. I cannot remember if they were talking about SS or high end modellers.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Not sure if anyone knows but this nutube technology is that some sort of solid state trickery or is it the next evolution of tubes? A more efficient implementation of tubes much like LED lights as opposed to incandescent? When I illuminate a room with a 2700k LED light I can't tell the difference between that and incandescent. So is this nutube technology the same sort of thing. Its being marketed as an actual tube but I wonder if thats just marketing bull. Maybe it hasn't been around enough for anyone here to try. I wonder if this might be a better path for people like me who like to keep it simple. 
In the past I've used modelers or guitar processors that took a lot of configuration (Roland GP8\16 - D50) But at this point I like to keep it simple. Turn it on and go. This is what has kept me from getting in to Kemper. Just seems to be a learning curve I have no desire to enter in to. 
With this nutube technology it seems to keep it simple as they seem to be built like a tube amp and these little nutubes are supposedly tubes.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)




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## dtsaudio (Apr 15, 2009)

Not solid state trickery, but the use of cold cathode technology. A company called Noritake manufactures Vacuum Fluorescent Displays (VFD). Korg discovered you can get voltage gain from this technology, and developed the Nutube. FYI, Korg and Noritake are owned by the same company.
Here's a pretty good write up on the tubes and an application. 
Design of a Korg Nutube Amplifier Part 1: Tube Basics


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

dtsaudio said:


> Not solid state trickery, but the use of cold cathode technology. A company called Noritake manufactures Vacuum Fluorescent Displays (VFD). Korg discovered you can get voltage gain from this technology, and developed the Nutube. FYI, Korg and Noritake are owned by the same company.
> Here's a pretty good write up on the tubes and an application.
> Design of a Korg Nutube Amplifier Part 1: Tube Basics


I wonder if we would ever see this technology evolve in to building replacement tubes utilizing nutube technology for our existing old school amps. Or if that is even possible.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> I wonder if we would ever see this technology evolve in to building replacement tubes utilizing nutube technology for our existing old school amps. Or if that is even possible.


Don't think so - significantly lower voltages with nutubes IIRC.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Don't think so - significantly lower voltages with nutubes IIRC.


Yes so then I'm wondering if this nutube technology would then not be a good replacement for our conventional tubes. I know that Simon at Kingsley pedals designs his pedals for high voltages to get the tube tone. I'm not educated enough to know the ins and outs of tube design but I'm wondering if high voltages is the recipe for the sound we love.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

It is a requirement to make old style tube technology work. I haven't used nutubes so I can't comapare performance or tone-wise, but there were, towards the end of the classic tube era, a number of miniature tubes (see Nuvisors) that used significantly lower voltages than standard tubes (e.g. again with the nuvistors - 110V on the plate vs 300 or more for a 12A_ series - also simplifies the power supply; smaller and cheaper).


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2018)

Granny Gremlin said:


> It is a requirement to make old style tube technology work. I haven't used nutubes so I can't comapare performance or tone-wise, but there were, towards the end of the classic tube era, a number of miniature tubes (see Nuvisors) that used significantly lower voltages than standard tubes (e.g. again with the nuvistors - 110V on the plate vs 300 or more for a 12A_ series - also simplifies the power supply; smaller and cheaper).


There have been pedals made with those mini tubes. From what I remember reading I don't think they were spectacularly better than SS pedals.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Player99 said:


> There have been pedals made with those mini tubes. From what I remember reading I don't think they were spectacularly better than SS pedals.


I used to own an Effectrode compressor that used a mini tube. I ended up selling it as I didn't think it sounded as good as the Diamond compressor that replace it or the Wampler Ego that I now have. 
I find the Kingsley OD pedals are amazing in tone. Whether that has anything to do with the tube or not, I don't know. They are my favorite OD pedal.


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2018)

guitarman2 said:


> I used to own an Effectrode compressor that used a mini tube. I ended up selling it as I didn't think it sounded as good as the Diamond compressor that replace it or the Wampler Ego that I now have.
> I find the Kingsley OD pedals are amazing in tone. Whether that has anything to do with the tube or not, I don't know. They are my favorite OD pedal.


I was able to try out Gerome's (Glebe Guitar Repair) Kingley OD and it is really nice.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Player99 said:


> There have been pedals made with those mini tubes. From what I remember reading I don't think they were spectacularly better than SS pedals.


I doubt it was nuvistors but rather the russian subminis, which are like smaller 12a_s vs the thimble-like nuvistors. Nuvistors were used in some pro audio gear back in the day including Ampex tape machines (the mic preamps) as well as later versions of classic era Neuman U47 and AKG C12 microphones (not well regarded, but that's because in both cases it was a retrofit when the original tube went out of prod - kinda shoehorned in to the existing circuit which is never ideal; the Ampexes are well regarded - I have 2 of them I use as stand alone mic preamps). I cannot tell if the Nuvistors sound good or not because the Ampexes also have 4 tube stages after them (12AX7 and 6AN8) so the magic (I love these preamps) could be from those (I do think the 6AN8 in particular is a part of it; as in the most desired tube mic amp ever made, the V72/V76, it has a pentode section vs 12A_s which are dual triodes).

There may be a few reasons the submini tube pedals don't sound very good (I never tried one, but checked them out generally a while back, mostly DIY vs readymade):
- many of them are still starved plate designs (not all)
- the tubes are not well documented (it's all in Russian) and the designs may not be optimal
- no iron (this is a major part of the tube amp sound)
- most of them are triode based (the tube amp sound we all love tends to involve trtrodes if not pentodes.... incidentally there are tetrode Nuvistors)

I mean 12a_ based pedals don't exactly impress much either do they (even the few that claim to run proper voltages, which is a partial truth - I've seen like 250V but not much more but I have not checked them all).


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2018)

Granny Gremlin said:


> I doubt it was nuvistors but rather the russian subminis, which are like smaller 12a_s vs the thimble-like nuvistors. Nuvistors were used in some pro audio gear back in the day including Ampex tape machines (the mic preamps) as well as later versions of classic era Neuman U47 and AKG C12 microphones (not well regarded, but that's because in both cases it was a retrofit when the original tube went out of prod - kinda shoehorned in to the existing circuit which is never ideal; the Ampexes are well regarded - I have 2 of them I use as stand alone mic preamps). I cannot tell if the Nuvistors sound good or not because the Ampexes also have 4 tube stages after them (12AX7 and 6AN8) so the magic (I love these preamps) could be from those (I do think the 6AN8 in particular is a part of it; as in the most desired tube mic amp ever made, the V72/V76, it has a pentode section vs 12A_s which are dual triodes).
> 
> There may be a few reasons the submini tube pedals don't sound very good (I never tried one, but checked them out generally a while back, mostly DIY vs readymade):
> - many of them are still starved plate designs (not all)
> ...


Try a Kingsley Jester out. Memorable.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Player99 said:


> Try a Kingsley Jester out. Memorable.


Workin on a DIY Herzog + Stinger; think I'll be OK ;P


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2018)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Workin on a DIY Herzog + Stinger; think I'll be OK ;P


I didn't say build one, just try it out...


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

This has been noted before. The only factories making vacuum tubes are in Russia and China. They are old and unsafe and not too efficient. They manufacturing methods have not been updated in 50 to 60 years. It is just a matter of time. I am not optimistic about new technology and streamlined manufacturing in the future to keep making them.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

This nutube discussion has come up before, here is one of the previous:
https://guitarscanada.com/index.php?threads/future-of-tube-amps.169409/


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## MarkusV (Sep 24, 2009)

jb welder said:


> This nutube discussion has come up before, here is one of the previous:
> https://guitarscanada.com/index.php?threads/future-of-tube-amps.169409/




I have a Vox MV 50 Clean
Honestly- I have built many tube amps in the past and am in the process of doing an AC30 clone. ...>So I LOVE tubes.
But if they can do the Korg Noritake Nutube for power tubes I am on board.
The MV50 sounds very convincing and feels like a proper tube amp when you play it. Saggy response and soft clipping breakup.
CAll me a heretic.
Go on. Do it


Markus


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

You can't get any kind of power out of a nutube. You would need to build an array with millions of them.
Fluorescent display tubes are designed to light up, not make sound.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

jb welder said:


> You can't get any kind of power out of a nutube. You would need to build an array with millions of them.
> Fluorescent display tubes are designed to light up, not make sound.


Well then why would anyone do it?


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

No


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I repeat: _"This has been noted before. The only factories making vacuum tubes are in Russia and China. They are old and unsafe and not too efficient. They manufacturing methods have not been updated in 50 to 60 years. It is just a matter of time. I am not optimistic about new technology and streamlined manufacturing in the future to keep making them"
_
If this upset vacuum tube purists, well, tough. If you think they will always be able to keep making vacuum tubes into the 22nd century, well, you are welcome to your delusion. Beside I have always found purism irritating.


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

what about Blackburn UK, aren't they gearing up to make tubes again?


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## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

Don't know whether it'll happen or not, but rumours of "the death of tubes" have been going on since I started playing guitar in '74.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> I repeat: _"This has been noted before. The only factories making vacuum tubes are in Russia and China. They are old and unsafe and not too efficient. They manufacturing methods have not been updated in 50 to 60 years. It is just a matter of time. I am not optimistic about new technology and streamlined manufacturing in the future to keep making them"
> _
> If this upset vacuum tube purists, well, tough. If you think they will always be able to keep making vacuum tubes into the 22nd century, well, you are welcome to your delusion. Beside I have always found purism irritating.


As long as the demand is there they will continue to make and sell tubes no? Personally I don't see tubes going away in the short term- 22nd century? Who knows... None of us can predict the future.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

And they will always be able to find workers for those dirty and unsafe factories.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> And they will always be able to find workers for those dirty and unsafe factories.


Probably so... Oh, and if I'm not mistaken there are still tubes being made in the Czech Republic.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Robert1950 said:


> And they will always be able to find workers for those dirty and unsafe factories.


you’re starting to sound like Steadly. plenty of things coming back in to production and being made better than ever. look at the resurgence in vinyl


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

vadsy said:


> you’re starting to sound like Steadly. plenty of things coming back in to production and being made better than ever. look at the resurgence in vinyl


OUCH !!


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

After having 1/3 of my vinyl got destroyed in a basement flood some 20 years ago, I gave the rest to my brother. I have never missed them. I have absolutely no interest in vinyl now. I have slowly become less and less of fan of owning stuff. I have owned many, many books in the past. I have given most all of them away. I use the library and listen to audio books a lot. I find three electrics, one acoustic and a bass sometimes a little too much. One is always in hibernation for at least a few months.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> After having 1/3 of my vinyl got destroyed in a basement flood some 20 years ago, I gave the rest to my brother. I have never missed them. I have absolutely no interest in vinyl now. I have slowly become less and less of fan of owning stuff. I have owned many, many books in the past. I have given most all of them away. I use the library and listen to audio books a lot. I find three electrics, one acoustic and a bass sometimes a little too much. One is always in hibernation for at least a few months.


I love my vinyl. Yes I have everything digitized and have a high quality DAC and a lot of hi rez files but vinyl is just a different experience that I really enjoy.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Vinyl (and the hardware) is an indulgence that I cannot really afford.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

jb welder said:


> *You can't get any kind of power out of a nutube.* You would need to build an array with millions of them.
> Fluorescent display tubes are designed to light up, not make sound.


Exactly. It's sad that some companies are going out of their way to confuse the issue, saying they are using nutubes in their power section. If anything, they may be used as a driver stage to the actual power section (like a PI) but all the heavy lifting is either done by power transistors (Class A/B or D) or power tubes. And if it's power tubes, why not just use HV pre tubes as well, since the power supply is already there - and why almost everyone is still doing it this way. All the nutube amps I've seen are hybrids, not full-on tube amps. 

There's a reason power tubes are bigger (often much bigger) than pre tubes. It isn't just so you can see them at the back of the pub, it's because they have to be bigger to flow enough electrons to actually do work and dissipate the heat generated in doing that work. 

And being as preamp tubes take decades to wear out (because they only produce voltage gain and not power), I don't think we're worrying about the end of preamp tubes. It's power tubes we may eventually run out of. But I don't see that in my lifetime either.


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## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

Believe Russia still uses tubes in much of its' military equipment (tanks, subs, missile launchers, etc.) presumably to mitigate the threats posed by EMP weapons and/or potential solar flares on the scale of the Carrington Event.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

If I have to learn to build them myself, I will learn.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

This is a Korg product, and for keyboards I suppose it is a good fit. (assuming keyboard players are demanding "tubes" in their signal chain)
For keyboards, you don't want people going inside them. So a permanent fixture soldered to the circuit board means not user replaceable, and no socket so no tube "rolling". No special power supply needed and no excess heat created.
Also a good fit for pedals for the same reasons.
But you're really not adding much tube character, similar to comparing a Marshall Valvestate to a Marshall all tube amplifier.


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

I don't see tubes going away any time soon. If anything, tube amps are probably more popular/common today than they were 20 years ago.


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