# a question for you sound guys



## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

There is a room in town that we have played several times. The acoustics are horrific. We are playing there again coming up and I have an idea I would like to get some feedback on from some of you more experienced sound guys. 

The room holds 200-300 people, it is a simple rectangular shaped room with the stage at one end about 4 ft off the ground. The dance floor will be set up right in front as usual. 

The problem with this room is that when the folks are sitting around talking, esp if the room is full, it is really loud, muddy and loud. You have to yell at the person sitting next to you because the sound of the crowd is that loud, a giant buzz/humm. With the speakers pointed out towards the room there is no way to get enough clean volume to rise above the noise floor of the voices without driving everyone out of the room, it would be too much. And unless you are on the dance floor close to the speakers the music sounds like a big noisy wash of mush from anywhere else in the room. 

by the time we are playing the last set and alot of the people are done chatting or gone home and most everyone is on the dance floor, it is fine. 

My idea is the put the mains out in front of us pointing back at the stage from the other side of the dance floor, maybe 40 ft away. That way we don't have to try to compete with the sound of the crowd, they don't have to compete with the noise of the music if they want to chat and we can turn down our stage monitors and feed more off the mains pointing back at us. I tought there might be some issue with the sound coming back that way and messing with the stage sound... I don't know, we have never tried this sort of thing. 

The idea is to play to the dance floor and leave the rest of the room alone rather than just adding to the noise. 

any ideas? I am open to any other suggestions as well, thanks.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

I'm thinking that it should work fine. It will probably mess with the listeners perception of where the band is located, but otherwise should solve your problem. It shouldn't mess with the band too much - really no different from a side-fill monitor, as long as the speakers aren't so far away that you can perceive the delay. If you keep getting invited back there's no harm in trying it.


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## R.S.Fraser Sr. (Aug 15, 2009)

I have to point out that _"I would like to get some *feedback * from some of you more experienced sound guys"_ is a good pun line to start with. 
Maybe I am missing something in your description of the room size and the crowd placement, but as well as creating a perceptual problem from the crowd's p.o.v., you will still be competing with a loud crowd, whichever direction you point your spkrs. The crowd noise will be evrywhere in the room since it is non-directional. One question to ask yourselves is are you adding too much bottom end to your re-enforcement? 
bob


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## fudb (Dec 8, 2010)

When you say "the acoustics are horrific", do you mean the room is very bright sounding? Are there lots of shiny surfaces everywhere? What is your PA setup, how many speakers and how much power?

Oh and putting the speakers at the other end won't likely work out well, you're going to have feedback problems, and the time delay will probably make things sound chorused.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

R.S.Fraser Sr. said:


> ... you will still be competing with a loud crowd, whichever direction you point your spkrs. The crowd noise will be evrywhere in the room since it is non-directional.


I think that the idea here is to set things up so that the crowd doesn't have to compete so much with the band so they will be quieter.



fudb said:


> When you say "the acoustics are horrific", do you mean the room is very bright sounding? Are there lots of shiny surfaces everywhere? What is your PA setup, how many speakers and how much power?
> 
> Oh and putting the speakers at the other end won't likely work out well, you're going to have feedback problems, and the time delay will probably make things sound chorused.


Yes, its possible that you could drastically improve things just by hanging some cloth banners on the walls - or even by turning down the mains a bit.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I wouldn't recommend pointing the mains back at the stage. Some rooms sound like ass. The best you can do is keep your stage volume down and get as much gain before feedback as you can. The traditional set up is best. 

If people want to hear the band they'll have to shut their cake holes and listen. That seldom happens but it is what it is.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

From the sounds of it, the room and setup is a clear candidate for standing waves and unpalatable resonances. Right off the bat, that clearly points to a need for effective EQ-ing and notch-filtering to optimize the music-to-honk ratio.

The idea of essentially isolating the music from the crowd that want to gab is a good one. And, speaking as someone who doesn't dance, one of the things I always hate about attending affairs where there is dancing is that the speakers make it impossible for anyone NOT on the dance floor to have a conversation without screaming. So I think your strategy will not only prevent an escalation of the shouting match between band and audience, but I think a number of people will appreciate it besides you.

One of the things to be concerned with, when the speakers are facing back at you is obviously feedback. EQ-ing can help, but one of the aspects that can be productively used is phase. The risk of feedback is increased when the sound being recirculated to the mics from the PA is in phase with what is going in to themics, such that they sum. Hard to judge that when the speakers are 40ft back, but consider having some means to either invert the signal hitting the mixer, invert it between mixer and power amp, or simply flip the leads to the speakers. I'm not saying it is a guaranteed solution, but do consider it as a possible one if things get out of hand....soundwise.

Do you guys have only two big cabs, or are you able to distribute the sound in some way other than that?

Finally, space exists in 3 dimensions. That you have speakers facing from the front outwards is entirely separate from having them face outward from the stage but _not beaming straight ahead_. Indeed, I've seen plenty of performance spaces where the house PA is a bunch of Bose cabs angled slightly downward from the ceiling. Is it at all possible to direct them slightly downward so that they don't beam straight out to the end of the room?


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Put this logo on your drummers kick drum


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## fudb (Dec 8, 2010)

Milkman said:


> I wouldn't recommend pointing the mains back at the stage. Some rooms sound like ass. The best you can do is keep your stage volume down and get as much gain before feedback as you can. The traditional set up is best.


This is very good advice. Use the PA to do the job it's supposed to, and resist the urge to crank up loud. If you really want to tame a bad room, you need a lot of speakers. The acoustic coupling of multiple speakers will essentially allow you to take control of the movement of air within a given space. Of course, this means you have to rent more equipment ($$$$), and also resist the urge to part people's hair with volume.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

some good advice and things to consider here guys, thanks. 

the room is not bright with lots of glass or shinny surfaces, it is rather dull and boomy instead. 

We have 2 1000 watt cabs for the mains but can add 2 more 1000 watt speakers, and point them differently if that helps. I will push the gain as much as possible and we always keep the volume down as much as we can. I want people to be able to chat comfortably if they aren't on the dance floor. we sometimes get people from the back of the room coming up to tell us they can't hear this or that... but I prefer that to having a whole bunch telling us to turn down.


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

Assuming the dance floor is in front of the stage, I would suggest trying to get the mains as high as possible off the floor and focused at a point in the center of the dance floor. Then use just enough volume to provide a good level for the dance crowd and let those in the seats talk away.


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## kibby (Feb 8, 2011)

I agree with washburned. Clothing soaks up sound like a sponge and you cannot get through people in front to the back. The sound needs to go over them.


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## Chopper (Feb 3, 2011)

The suggestion to get the speakers up high and tilt them down is on the money! Also, you mentioned you could get a second set of cabinets...maybe using them for more coverage so you can turn the mains down a bit might help?(I could be wrong here though)...and of course, some good eq's will help a bit!


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

I would also suggest at getting the cabs up. But concentrate on having a good monitor mix so that YOU know you sound good. If you sound good and are having fun then they may pay attention... 

Ain't bars fun .. ha ha


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