# Origins of Fender Tweed tone ?



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I have often wondered specifically which amps (or circuits) are being referred to when the term "Fender Tweed sound/tone" is used.

I assume that the term applies to a certain vintage, or model(s), of Fender amps as Fender has made many Tweed amps through time.

Thanks

Dave


----------



## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

The amps that best exemplify the "Tweed" era tone, would be the Bassman, Deluxe, Twin, and Champ. The Victoria amp company focuses on this era more or less exclusively. :smile:


http://www.victoriaamp.com/soundclips.htm

http://victoriaamp.com/amps.html


----------



## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Re-reading your question I realize you were interested in the circuit names. The Victoria amp company renames these I suppose for legal reasons. Here are the circuit names with their corresponding model.

5e3 = Deluxe
5e8 = Twin
5f6a = Bassman
5e1 = Champ
5e9 = Tremolux


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Thanks Shawn.

I was guessing that some of the amps you mentioned would be on the list you provided.

Interesting (albeit very logical) that Victoria Amps is focused on these amps.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The various amps listed are all great amps, but there is really nothing that connects them, electronically, other than the era they were made in, the company that made them, and the fabric used to cover them. I am the proud owner of two of them (and hope to celebrate their respective 50th birthdays in September and December, according to the manufacturing date code), and can vouch that they are nothing alike.

Virtually all of them, however, tend to be rated at less power than their contemporary counterparts, and were designed in anticipation of less potent pickups, and the total absence of any "enhancement" from pedals. As a result of whatever various design quirks accompanied that, they tend to distort a little easier, and in slightly different ways. Some of that I imagine may be a result of component differences over the decades, and some may be a result of changes to the original components over time.

But to lump them all together as if they have a certain tone signature is a gross overgeneralization. Not yours, but whomever wrote the ad copy you got it from.


----------



## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

mhammer said:


> The various amps listed are all great amps, but there is really nothing that connects them, electronically, other than the era they were made in, the company that made them, and the fabric used to cover them. I am the proud owner of two of them (and hope to celebrate their respective 50th birthdays in September and December, according to the manufacturing date code), and can vouch that they are nothing alike.
> 
> Virtually all of them, however, tend to be rated at less power than their contemporary counterparts, and were designed in anticipation of less potent pickups, and the total absence of any "enhancement" from pedals. As a result of whatever various design quirks accompanied that, they tend to distort a little easier, and in slightly different ways. Some of that I imagine may be a result of component differences over the decades, and some may be a result of changes to the original components over time.
> 
> But to lump them all together as if they have a certain tone signature is a gross overgeneralization. Not yours, but whomever wrote the ad copy you got it from.


I never suggested, nor meant to suggest that these amps are all alike. Together they were listed to cover what most people think of when Fender "tweed" is mentioned. I would argue these amps have more in common tonally than their Blackface relatives of the same name. I'm a big fan of these and Blackface Fenders and have many books and websites bookmarked regarding them. But thanks for the "ad copy" remark anyway. The amp I've most often heard mentioned regarding "Tweed" tone, is the 5e3 narrow panel Deluxe. I don't think you'll find to many folks that would argue the tweed Champ and Bassman are tonally similar.

Shawn


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I wasn't implying YOU had lumped them together. All you did was list the amps/circuits that others have lumped together under the "tweed tone banner". You did your job honestly.:bow:

To be fair, one _can_ make some distinctions between amp eras in the Fender stable...of a sort. A number of design changes transpiring over the blackface-to-silverface era, that were common to the vast majority of Fender amps, would have an impact on their collective sound. Much of that was part of the seemingly inevitable drive towards the perfect clean amp and transistorisation that took place under CBS. If anything, I suppose it might be fair to say that during the "tweed era", on up to the brownface era, Fender amps were even more idiosyncratic than during the black and silverface era. A greater variety of tube complements were used, and the nature and location of any tone-control circuitry (often a big factor in how much signal was hitting which stages) tended to be more idiosyncratic. Then there is that whole biasing, long-tail/short-tail/cathodyne stuff that I wish I understood more about. 

I have a copy of JC Maillet's book http://www.lynx.bc.ca/~jc/ifmta.html that he was kind enough to give me, but I'm afraid a lot of the math is way over my head. Some stuff is starting to gel, though. For instance he has proposed something he calls TSR as influential in resulting tone. This is the total series resistance of all fixed resistors in the power supply. For instance the 5F6-A Bassman has a 4k7 and 10k resistor in series in the power supply, while other amps have less TSR and others more. He suggests that greater TSR is associated with greater "raspiness". Interesting.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

So now I am a bit confused...after beginning the day feeling very enlightened.....:wave:

Do the "Tweed" amps have some degree of common, somewhat unique (i.e., to this "group" of amps) and identifiable tonal charactersitics? 

Or am I missing the whole enchilada here? (I have frequently been known to be famous for that)

Cheers

Dave

I missed post 7 while typing this....I need some time to catch up now


----------



## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

When Mark Baier of Victoria Amps was asked to describe the "tweed mystique" there were a few key points he listed. First and foremost was the simplicity of design. Less components = purer sound. Ken Fischer made a similar point using the tape to tape analogy. If we make a recording and then make a copy of this recording and so on and so on, eventually we'll have a very low quality recording. In these simple circuits the varied pick attack, which creates varied signal voltage across the grid of the V1 tube is able to be translated through the rest of the circuitry. The cabinets tend to be more elastic in their contsruction as well, compared to the later Fenders. Another interesting facet of these amps is the material used for the eyelet boards. It's a vulcanized fibre board that's actually a *poor* material for mounting high voltage components. They're prone to microphony and allow voltage to creep across them. apparantly tapping on coupling caps while operating is often audible through the speakers. Of course using 12AY7s in the V1 on many of these amps was unique to this period of Fender amps as well.

Shawn :smile:


----------



## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Correct me if I'm wrong (which is usual), but weren't the tweed amps more or less designs right out of the RCA manual?

Matt


----------



## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

greco said:


> So now I am a bit confused...after beginning the day feeling very enlightened.....:wave:
> 
> Do the "Tweed" amps have some degree of common, somewhat unique (i.e., to this "group" of amps) and identifiable tonal charactersitics?
> 
> ...


Well, I think it's like this. A Princeton Reverb sounds closer to a Deluxe Reverb than it does a Tweed Deluxe But, they don't really sound the same either. BTW this would be a whole lot easier if you had *SPEAKERS!!*. I'm working with broad generalizations because it's simpler. Mhammer's right, but for simplicity's sake I'm going with the main differences.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Rugburn said:


> BTW this would be a whole lot easier if you had *SPEAKERS!!*.


This is an inside joke....Shawn is always teasing me that I need to get a sound card and speakers for my computer. 

The sound card I have uses NOS tubes and replacements are really hard to find...:sport-smiley-002:

Thanks for all the cool discussion guys.

Cheers

Dave

<<Remember ...must buy speakers, must buy speakers>>


----------



## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

YOu can't talk about tweeds without mentioning the old Pro and vibrolux as well. Both incredible sounding amps.


----------



## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

Rugburn said:


> Re-reading your question I realize you were interested in the circuit names. The Victoria amp company renames these I suppose for legal reasons. Here are the circuit names with their corresponding model.
> 
> 5e3 = Deluxe
> 5e8 = Twin
> ...


hey there...just to toss a wrench into the works...when jim marshall...*cough*...*cough*...um..."borrowed" the 5f6a Bassman circuit...do you think he was chasing the tweed tone...???...


----------



## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

jimihendrix said:


> hey there...just to toss a wrench into the works...when jim marshall...*cough*...*cough*...um..."borrowed" the 5f6a Bassman circuit...do you think he was chasing the tweed tone...???...


Hey Jimi, I'm not going to try and guess what Jim Marshall was chasing tone wise in 1962. I will say that the earliest JTM45s were powered by 5881s rather than 6L6s. Of course it was a head pumped into a 4x12 closed back cab loaded with Celestions, rather than an open-backed combo with 4X10 Jensens. Otherwise the schematics are identical. I don't think there's much doubt that Marshall was building a "super" Bassman of sorts. Others may have more insight. I like vintage Marshalls, but I'm not as experienced or as excited by them generally speaking, as I am with Vox amps as far as the British thing goes.


----------



## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

hey there...from what i've read over the years...leo was a radio repairman that saw an opportunity to produce amps for a new untapped guitar market...being that he came from a radio background he was trying to come up with amp designs that that were distortion free...no matter what circuit he experimented with...the final goal was the same....the cleanest purest tone..."tweed tone"

with successive circuits though the years and through the various amps he was always chasing clean tones...no matter what the circuit...

these days...when it comes to modelling amps...and due to copyright laws...they always refer to fender models as "tweed tone"...not referring to any specific circuit or amp...and it's usually the cleanest model...whereas marshall models are called "crunch tone"...mesa boogies are "recto tone"

so in answer to your question about what specific amp/circuit "they" refer to as the "tweed tone"...i'd have to say that it was any/all amps that leo fender designed and produced...


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

jimihendrix said:


> so in answer to your question about what *specific amp/circuit "they" refer to as the "tweed tone"...*i'd have to say that it was *any/all amps that leo fender designed and produced*...


OK....now I am VERY confused. kqoct (stop laughing)

"they" are defined as the makers/designers of modelling amps...Correct?

Could we just be talking semantics here?

Cheers

Dave


----------



## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

jimihendrix said:


> so in answer to your question about what specific amp/circuit "they" refer to as the "tweed tone"...i'd have to say that it was any/all amps that leo fender designed and produced...


This is not true. My modelling amp refers to the Fender type sounds it was modelled after as "Black Panel". This refers to the Blackface era (60's). The Brownface era is one where Leo was the most "idiosyncratic" or unsettled in his designs. This and the brevity of this period is likely why we don't see any reissues or digital models of these Fender amps. They are highly sought after and priced accordingly on the vintage market. Some of these amps have a particular tremolo/vibrato circuit that IMO is the best Fender ever made. 

Shawn :smile:


----------



## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

5E7 = Bandmaster
5F4 = Super


----------



## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

Rugburn said:


> This is not true. My modelling amp refers to the Fender type sounds it was modelled after as "Black Panel". This refers to the Blackface era (60's).
> 
> Shawn :smile:


hey there...my tech 21 amp has ;

california = mesa 
british = marshall
tweed = fender

my line 6 amp uses the term "twang" for it's fender model...yet lists the amps as;

blackface '65 twin reverb
blackface '64 deluxe reverb
'53 fender tweed deluxe
'58 fender tweed bassman
'60 gibson explorer

guitar rig uses the terms ;

tweedman = fender bassman
tweed delight = fender tweed deluxe
twang/twang reverb = fender twin reverb

each company uses different albeit similar terms


----------



## sliberty (May 17, 2008)

Tweed era Fenders do have certain characteristics in common, even though the circuits are not "all the same". For example, most had tube recitfiers, and undersized filter caps. The result is a somewhat flabby bass response, and a lot of compression. [This even carried over to the Marshall JTM45 which was largely a copy of the Bassman]. Additionaly, many of the earlier amps [C, D and E series] didn't have the long tail pair phase inverter, but instead used a variety of cheaper, less efficient phase inverters. The results were lower power tube gain, and somewhat unbalanced power tubes. 

Probably the most representative sound from the Tweed era Fenders would be the 5e3 Deluxe. Listen to Neil Young on almost anything.

The 5f6 and 5f6a Bassman amps were already starting to evolve (they had the long tail pair), and so they started to depart from the "Tweed sound".

Steve


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The simplicity of design also results in different signal levels, to some extent. Many of the tweed-era amps (including my own Princeton and the famous 5E3 Deluxe) used a simple tone control, rather than the tone stacks found on later amps. You can see an example of it here: http://www.schematicheaven.com/fenderamps/princeton_5f2a_schem.pdf (the tone control is the one with the ground arrow pointing up)

The control operates like a combination guitar tone knob (i.e., treble cut) and variable bright switch. As you turn in one direction, the control adds resistance in series with a .005uf cap to ground, reducing passive treble bleed, and decreases resistance in series with a .0005uf cap straddling the volume pot, allowing more treble to bypass the volume control when the volume control is at less than maximum (just like on a Tele). Turn it the other way and you lose the treble bypass, while at the same time introducing more treble bleed. The same control is used on the 5E3 Deluxe, 5E9 Tremolux, and 5E11 Vibrolux, among others.

This type of control, while not particularly flexible, introduces significantly less passive signal loss than a tone stack does, with the result being that an amp with the same preamp gain structure in the front end has more signal hitting the tubes down the line. This results in more distortion.

Later amps using 2-control and 3-control tone stacks lose a lot of signal through them, requiring an additional triode stage or two to make up the lost signal. So, for instance, the blackface Champ shown here: http://www.schematicheaven.com/fenderamps/champ_aa764_schem.pdf has the identical tube complement to my 5F2-A Princeton, and the same gain structure. If one were to lift the connection between the 15k resistor (near the bass control) and ground, you'd hear a substantial increase in volume resulting from the elimination of passive loss through the tonestack. Though I haven't tried one, my gut sense is that I get far more grind from my Princeton than one could get at similar levels in the AA764 Champ, simply because the signal hitting the second triode, and power tube, is greater than what the Champ provides on its own.

Again, remember that distortion, and the desire for it, is a child of the late 60's. The transition we see from the early 50's towards the mid 60's is part of a systematic march by all companies/designers towards cleaner tone from amps at higher volumes. That's why the presence control on the 5F6A Bassman and others seems to work backwards. It is wired up to "rein in" unwanted distortion as you turn it up; all part of that urge for cleaner sound than was obtained during the tweed era.

So, the "simplicity" of the tweed era amps is not so much just a shorter signal path from input jack to power tube/s, but rather sometimes it is the manner in which signal level is managed along the path. Those early amps provided for, among other things, less passive loss and a more efficient path as a result.


----------

