# Another Cities question..



## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

I got a guy in the USA that really want to buy my guitar , but I will not ship it because of the rosewood fret board.
I cannot drive across the border, I have no papers or passport.
If the guy comes across the border and picks up the guitar , what does he need to get through customs...

If I need to get forms can you get them from Service Canada..


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## losch79 (Jul 11, 2016)

Nothing at all as far as I know. I've bought a half dozen guitars in the US with rosewood since Jan. 2017 and have had no paperwork with the exception of the receipt. He will need a receipt so he can declare value. The De Minimis threshold in the US is $800US so if the guitar is less than that he won't be paying taxes. It is my understanding that if you are travelling with the instrument on your person you are fine... again that has been my experience travelling back into Canada with a rosewood necked guitar.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I bought a guitar from "My Favorite Guitars" in Florida. A Martin D-18GE that had a Brazilian Rosewood head stock overlay. Jon at MFG said not to worry as it wasn't enough that the border would care. There was no paperwork for it and I was a little worried but had no issues. With a used guitar and a braz fretboard I think I'd worry a little more. 
I'll ask on the Martin forum for you as they seem to be well educated on these matters.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

In case you actually need it...
You'd have to choose the right form on Canada website :
Application for permit to export protected plants - Canada.ca


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

On the Martin forum the consensus is get the paperwork to be on the safe side. I think its one of those things that you could most likely cross over the border without paperwork but legally they have the right to confiscate the guitar. For me, I wouldn't take a chance.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

This guy is driving 22 hrs to come to Canada to buy a guitar that is being sold for 1400.oo USD ...I do not want him driving all that way . To end up the guitar being taken by customs...

I went to the application web site and it won’t come up, anybody else having problems accessing the form..I don’t think I could even fill the form out, I remember seeing it awhile ago, and they are asking question like ,what species of rose wood , and how much does it weigh....The government has gone crazy...


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## Zifnab (Dec 1, 2017)

shipping a guitar with a rose wood fret board is an issue? One would think that the manufacturer of the guitar would have taken care of all the procurement and procedures needed to build with the rose wood. I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong here) that it's because of the non-ethical wood harvesting or however you say it. So wouldn't the issues all be taken care of when the guitar was manufactured?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Zifnab said:


> shipping a guitar with a rose wood fret board is an issue? One would think that the manufacturer of the guitar would have taken care of all the procurement and procedures needed to build with the rose wood. I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong here) that it's because of the non-ethical wood harvesting or however you say it. So wouldn't the issues all be taken care of when the guitar was manufactured?


Unfortunately not.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

I called to see if I could get any answers, and they told me as long as the rosewood is under 20 lbs and is not Brazilian rosewood and it’s for personal use you do not need a permit..


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## Zifnab (Dec 1, 2017)

Even if the guitar was built years ago it is an issue? Or is it not an issue if it is a recently built guitar with today's standards? I do not understand the issue here if you can forgive my ignorance on the scene. I had no idea this was actually a thing.


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## Lull (Aug 30, 2017)

Zifnab said:


> Even if the guitar was built years ago it is an issue? Or is it not an issue if it is a recently built guitar with today's standards? I do not understand the issue here if you can forgive my ignorance on the scene. I had no idea this was actually a thing.


It doesn't matter when the guitar was built. If CITES paperwork is not provided, there is a chance it will be seized at customs if the guitar_ is shipped _across the border. It is different when one crosses the border in person with the instrument, then no CITES documentation is required.


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## Lull (Aug 30, 2017)

Rick31797 said:


> This guy is driving 22 hrs to come to Canada to buy a guitar that is being sold for 1400.oo USD ...I do not want him driving all that way . To end up the guitar being taken by customs...


If you really want to be safe, have him fill the form US Customs form 7523, available online. He should have no problem crossing the border back to the US if he presents this filled document to the custom agent. 
Form 7523 - Entry and Manifest of Merchandise Free of Duty, Carriers Certificate and Release


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## Zifnab (Dec 1, 2017)

CITES....to the google box I go. This all makes sense to me now. Thanks for the knowledge peeps. Knowledge is Power!


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Lull said:


> It doesn't matter when the guitar was built. If CITES paperwork is not provided, there is a chance it will be seized at customs if the guitar_ is shipped _across the border. It is different when one crosses the border in person with the instrument, then no CITES documentation is required.


again, for the slow like myself. if I buy rosewood guitars or parts in the US and carry them over the border while travelling, I do not require CITES paperwork, correct?


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## Lull (Aug 30, 2017)

vadsy said:


> again, for the slow like myself. if I buy rosewood guitars or parts in the US and carry them over the border while travelling, I do not require CITES paperwork, correct?


That's correct. I contacted the head of CITES Permit Policy and Operations Unit / CITES Canada; a very helpful lady that very patiently answered all my questions. 

My plan was to have a used guitar mailed near the border (in the US) and then go pick it up by car and cross the border back with it to avoid having to deal with CITES issues. She confirmed that a CITES permit isn't required when crossing the border in person with rosewood, as long as the total weight is _*less than 10kg*_ and it's *not for *_*commercial purposes*_. The 10kg exemption doesn't apply for rosewood being shipped across the border by mail because then the authorities have no assurance the rosewood won't be used for commercial purposes. That's a somewhat rough translation of her answer; don't hesitate to PM me if you want more details about the entire email exchange for future reference.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Lull said:


> That's correct. I contacted the head of CITES Permit Policy and Operations Unit / CITES Canada; a very helpful lady that very patiently answered all my questions.
> 
> My plan was to have a used guitar mailed near the border (in the US) and then go pick it up by car and cross the border back with it to avoid having to deal with CITES issues. She confirmed that a CITES permit isn't required when crossing the border in person with rosewood, as long as the total weight is _*less than 10kg*_ and it's *not for *_*commercial purposes*_. The 10kg exemption doesn't apply for rosewood being shipped across the border by mail because then the authorities have no assurance the rosewood won't be used for commercial purposes. That's a somewhat rough translation of her answer; don't hesitate to PM me if you want more details about the entire email exchange for future reference.


Thank you very much for the detailed answer. I had read something like this before but it is always nice to confirm and clearly you are the right person to ask.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Lull said:


> That's correct. I contacted the head of CITES Permit Policy and Operations Unit / CITES Canada; a very helpful lady that very patiently answered all my questions.
> 
> My plan was to have a used guitar mailed near the border (in the US) and then go pick it up by car and cross the border back with it to avoid having to deal with CITES issues. She confirmed that a CITES permit isn't required when crossing the border in person with rosewood, as long as the total weight is _*less than 10kg*_ and it's *not for *_*commercial purposes*_. The 10kg exemption doesn't apply for rosewood being shipped across the border by mail because then the authorities have no assurance the rosewood won't be used for commercial purposes. That's a somewhat rough translation of her answer; don't hesitate to PM me if you want more details about the entire email exchange for future reference.


I question this information. And it wouldn't be the first time some person on the phone and the border guards on the front lines would disagree on an issue. Remember the border guards have a lot of power and there isn't anyone that can or will challenge them.
10kg is 22 pounds. You could easily have a guitar completely made of rosewood and be under that weight. So why is there an issue at all? An acoustic guitar with Rosewood back and sides will have a lot less than 10kg or rosewood weight. I have no skin in the game and the OP and buyer can do whatever they want and most likely there won't be an issue. But theres a gamble and if you don't mind taking the chance.
I have a Martin guitar with madagascar rosewood on it and I wouldn't take a chance crossing the border with it with out cities paperwork
This link here states that even a guitar with a rosewood fingerboard or any amount of rosewood must be accompanied by cities paperwork.
So this is the problem of taking one source of information as gospel. You can ask 10 different people in government who should know this and probably get 10 different answers. In the end its the owner of the guitar thats taking the chance.

New CITES Regulations For All Rosewood Species



> When shipping musical instruments that include any amount (i.e. fingerboard, back, sides, binding) of _Dalbergia_ or the other newly regulated woods out of your country as part of a commercial transaction, each one must be accompanied by a CITES re-export certificate.


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## Intrepid (Oct 9, 2008)

If you buy a Guitar with Rosewood in the US and carry it across the border into Canada, then it is a "Commercial Purpose". An exemption would potentially apply if it is your Rosewood guitar and you are visiting the States and certify that you will bring it back to Canada after your visit. If you tell them you are bringing it to the US to "sell" it is for a "Commercial purpose" and you need the Cites paperwork. Similarly, if you are going to the States to "buy", it is a "Commercial Purpose" and you better have your paperwork because you are exporting the Rosewood into Canada. Be safe and get the Cites permit.


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## Lull (Aug 30, 2017)

I agree there are grey zones that may result in a different interpretation from a custom agent to another, and thus it may be indeed safer to get the CITES permit.

However, the information I reported was obtained through email communications with the head of CITES Permit Policy and Operations Unit / CITES Canada, and I kept the email thread for future use if needed. Also, this applies to crossing the Canadian border with a musical instrument that contains rosewood.

This is an excerpt from the CITES documentation - Changes to international trade controls for Rosewood :


> _CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN THE 10KG RULE? DOES 10KG REFER TO THE TOTAL WEIGHT OF THE ITEM OR THE WEIGHT OF PORTION OF THE ITEM THAT IS MADE OF ROSEWOOD? Paragraph (b) shown in the previous section indicates that specimens that weigh under 10kg and are traded for non-commercial purposes are outside the scope of CITES controls. Specimen refers to the weight of the rosewood species in the item and not the overall weight of the item. For instance, in the case of a musical instrument transported for personal use, a 12 kg instrument containing 5 kg of parts made from Dalbergia would be outside the scope of CITES controls._


When I contacted CITES representatives in Canada, I especially inquired about the "_specimens that weigh under 10kg and are traded for non-commercial purposes are outside the scope of CITES controls_" statement above. The answer I got was that buying a used guitar in the US and personally crossing the border to Canada with the instrument did not mandate a CITES permit, and was not considered commercial in scope. 

Note that the 10kg exception does NOT apply to Brazilian rosewood.


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

TL; DR

He doesn't need any paperwork if he is escorting it across the border personally. Just the bill of sale. CITES is only for shipped guitars.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

You don't need a Cites certificate to bring a guitar which you own across the border.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

BSTheTech said:


> TL; DR
> 
> He doesn't need any paperwork if he is escorting it across the border personally. Just the bill of sale. CITES is only for shipped guitars.





knight_yyz said:


> You don't need a Cites certificate to bring a guitar which you own across the border.


I highly doubt this is the case. If it were so the CITIES regulations would have no teeth. We could easily have Brazilian Rosewood guitars built with up to 10kg worth of illegal rosewood have them shipped to a po box on one side of the border and escort them across the border. 
Internet advice is worth what you pay for it. OP, let us know how it goes. Just remember, you might get across the border successfully nine times out ten. Then its that one time you find your self having your guitar confiscated and all of a sudden there is a valid reason why in your case it was legal for them to do so. 
You're not supposed to cross in the the US with a criminal record either. But many do. Until that one time they check and you don't.


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## Tim Plains (Apr 14, 2009)

22 hour drive for a guitar? What is it? 



guitarman2 said:


> I highly doubt this is the case.


Read up on CITES. You don't need a permit if you cross the border and have the guitar in person.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

"A new regulation takes effect on January 2, 2017 that calls for documentation when shipping instruments internationally that contain any amount of _any kind_ of rosewood or certain types of bubinga.
*It does not apply* *to instruments shipped within the borders of your country* *or instruments carried for personal use while traveling internationally *[unless they contain more than 22 lbs. (10 kg) of the regulated woods]."


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i crossed the border on june 1 2017with my LP, which has a rosewood board. no one asked my intentions, no one asked to see the guitar or any paperwork. i have gone through toll booths slower than crossing the border that day. be paranoid all you want to. border agents are not stopping guys with one guitar. you guys really think they have time to screw around with every single person that crosses the border? they have better things to do.


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## Yamariv (Jan 15, 2018)

Lull said:


> That's correct. I contacted the head of CITES Permit Policy and Operations Unit / CITES Canada; a very helpful lady that very patiently answered all my questions.
> 
> My plan was to have a used guitar mailed near the border (in the US) and then go pick it up by car and cross the border back with it to avoid having to deal with CITES issues. She confirmed that a CITES permit isn't required when crossing the border in person with rosewood, as long as the total weight is _*less than 10kg*_ and it's *not for *_*commercial purposes*_. The 10kg exemption doesn't apply for rosewood being shipped across the border by mail because then the authorities have no assurance the rosewood won't be used for commercial purposes. That's a somewhat rough translation of her answer; don't hesitate to PM me if you want more details about the entire email exchange for future reference.


This ^^ No permit for the owner to cross the border for regular rosewood.. If it's Braz, that's a whole different story!


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## Percy (Feb 18, 2013)

I just bought a 1991 Fender AVRI Strat rosewood fret board on Ebay from Japan.
I have never done this before[bought a guitar online]but the seller assured me there would be no problems.
I won the auction Jan.4 2018 and the Strat was at my door Jan. 7 2018......I was amazed at how quick it got to me....
This is my one and only rose wood experience....I am sure Brazilian rose wood would be a different story....


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

The lady I talk to about the cities permit said Brazilian rose requires a permit no matter how much you have....


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Rick31797 said:


> The lady I talk to about the cities permit said Brazilian rose requires a permit no matter how much you have....


From what I understand Brazilian is the highest level of CITES restriction. All other rosewoods are of a less restriction. So you roll the dice that you won't get a border guard that knows the difference. The problem, from what I've heard is, that if he decides it is Brazilian, whether it is or isn't, who's going to challenge him? I say the best protection is proper paperwork. If there is even a 2% worry that there could be a problem I think going over with the right paperwork is worth it.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

I am bumping the subject...
I received Winter edition of Steel, the Taylor co. quarterly.
Bob Taylor wrote a full page about the mess in the guitar world resulting from CITES application on rosewood.
As I understand it, the guitar industry is trying to get to the point that when a guitar is legally manufactured, there would be no problem thereafter, be it travelling or selling it accross borders.
Unfortunately, this cannot be achieved until 2019.


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## Yamariv (Jan 15, 2018)

guitarman2 said:


> I highly doubt this is the case. If it were so the CITIES regulations would have no teeth. We could easily have Brazilian Rosewood guitars built with up to 10kg worth of illegal rosewood have them shipped to a po box on one side of the border and escort them across the border.
> Internet advice is worth what you pay for it. OP, let us know how it goes. Just remember, you might get across the border successfully nine times out ten. Then its that one time you find your self having your guitar confiscated and all of a sudden there is a valid reason why in your case it was legal for them to do so.
> You're not supposed to cross in the the US with a criminal record either. But many do. Until that one time they check and you don't.


Sorry Guitarman2 but all you are doing is making the Cites issue more complicated by challenging all the correct info that it being posted on this thread. It's frustrating to me when uninformed people bring up all these "What if" scenarios and you've done minimal research on your own.. I've personally spoken to the only Cites Lady in Canada and she confirmed all what Lull said. To sum it up simply below for all my fellow Canadian Guitar players:

Braz needs an Import permit and an export permit from each country Canada/US to be shipped across the border as it's in a different/higher Cites schedule (same as ivory). Non Braz Rosewood only needs an export permit from the Country it's being shipped from. Now if you are the owner of a non braz guitar and it's under the 10kg and it's not for commercial purposes, you can cross the US/Can border with no Cites paper work at all with no hastle at all as the owner of the guitar. Same goes for your personal guitars you want to bring to the US on Vacation or for a gig, if it's not braz, you can carry it across without a permit at all.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Yamariv said:


> Sorry Guitarman2 but all you are doing is making the Cites issue more complicated by challenging all the correct info that it being posted on this thread. It's frustrating to me when uninformed people bring up all these "What if" scenarios and you've done minimal research on your own.. I've personally spoken to the only Cites Lady in Canada and she confirmed all what Lull said. To sum it up simply below for all my fellow Canadian Guitar players:
> 
> Braz needs an Import permit and an export permit from each country Canada/US to be shipped across the border as it's in a different/higher Cites schedule (same as ivory). Non Braz Rosewood only needs an export permit from the Country it's being shipped from. Now if you are the owner of a non braz guitar and it's under the 10kg and it's not for commercial purposes, you can cross the US/Can border with no Cites paper work at all with no hastle at all as the owner of the guitar. Same goes for your personal guitars you want to bring to the US on Vacation or for a gig, if it's not braz, you can carry it across without a permit at all.


I'm mostly going on information gained on extensive threads in the Martin guitar forum. I'm not spreading any definitive information one way or the other so I don't know where you're getting that from. I'm just warning caution when you go by information even when obtained by supposedly authoritative sources. I work in IT and have for 25 years. I know when I call Microsoft support, I can 5 different Microsoft reps and get 5 different answers to the same issue.
All I said basically, is if it were me I'd exercise extreme caution. If a border guard exercises his right to confiscate on the spot do you think your cries that he doesn't know the law is going to get you anywhere. They have a lot of power at the border.
For me its better to have CITES documentation and not need it then to not have CITES documentation and need it.


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## hag99 (Mar 2, 2009)

Looking for an update - does CITES on rosewood still able to shipping used guitars across the border?


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

not without paperwork


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

They’ve agreed to rescind it for musical instruments but no word on a date yet.


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## hag99 (Mar 2, 2009)

This is what I thought but hadn't heard a date. Thanks.


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