# How to 'cut through' with lots of gain?



## canadiangeordie (Jan 10, 2009)

Hi
I recorded some videos with my band this past week and playing them back it was interesting to hear that the guitar really wasn't very audible. I had the mids 'scooped' (actually on 0, thought it sounded more death metal) but now have mids set to 3/4 and it has improved.
However, when my Randall RG100 2x12 needed fixed recently, i was forced to use an old 12" Peavey Bandit, from like 12 years ago. although the tone and general sound quality weren't comparable the Randall, it definately cut through everything else (drums, bass, vox etc) much better. I really just want some input on why this may be. What settings should i have on my amp to get it slicing through the jam? It has 3 channels.

Thanks


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

I would guess that turning DOWN the gain, which will/might/should lessen the compression somewhat, will help cut. Mids also cut, especially upper mids - every use an equalizer? It's a recent revelation for me (MXR 10 band) how much difference it can make to tone and cut.

I know there is a time and place for scooped, but if you're competing with the bass player at one end, maybe another guitar player, the singer (also mids), it's easy to get lost fast. Depends who's doing the mixing too, or was it live amps into one mic on the floor?


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## gerald guerrero (Oct 3, 2006)

Difficult at best. It may sound good on stage but when you get home its icepick in the ear.Good reason for keeping different guitars.BTW< that icepick that cuts through on stage is still blistering you eardrums even though there alot of bass mixed in and you may not notice it. Wear earplugs or go deaf.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

yah, mids is the answer. the bandit's single 12 combo will naturally be a much "mid-ier" setup. an EQ is in most pro metal guitarist's rigs. as keto says, turing down the gain may help as well. a mid boost pedal could do it, too.. are you using a pedal? if you have an MT-2, the best thing about that pedal is the parametric EQ.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

canadiangeordie said:


> Hi
> I recorded some videos with my band this past week and playing them back it was interesting to hear that the guitar really wasn't very audible. I had the mids 'scooped' (actually on 0, thought it sounded more death metal) but now have mids set to 3/4 and it has improved.
> However, when my Randall RG100 2x12 needed fixed recently, i was forced to use an old 12" Peavey Bandit, from like 12 years ago. although the tone and general sound quality weren't comparable the Randall, it definately cut through everything else (drums, bass, vox etc) much better. I really just want some input on why this may be. What settings should i have on my amp to get it slicing through the jam? It has 3 channels.
> 
> Thanks


To cut through with high gain, stop scooping the mids. It's that simple.

Scooped mids sound interesting in your room but that's about it in my opinion.


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## Tarl (Feb 4, 2006)

Milkman said:


> To cut through with high gain, stop scooping the mids. It's that simple.
> 
> Scooped mids sound interesting in your room but that's about it in my opinion.


+1000 on that......


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## Andy (Sep 23, 2007)

The scooped tone you hear on many metal records is simply unachievable with the 3-band equalizer on your amp. It's cutting at a completely different frequency (a frequency that you want -- generally about 1khz) with a wide bandwidth, which removes many of the frequencies that cut through. The sound you're looking for is cut at about 400hz.

Dial in something with plenty of mids and leave it to the engineer to streamline it and make it sound badass (while still audible in the mix). And, turn your bloody gain down -- I cut it down dramatically once I started dabbling in home recording.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Songbirds, and many other species (including humans) that vocalize, face the exact same problem: How does one signal get preferentially heard amidst all the other sources of sound? In the case of a bird, the other sounds are traffic, leaves, wind, other bird species, etc. The way that most species have solved this problem is basically to have their vocalizations occupy a certain range and pattern of frequencies that makes them easier to pick out from among the surrounding din.

One of the things that higher volume will do is generate a lot of harmonic content. Throwing drums in there adds to the general din above 2khz or so. With only two ears, your brain has to figure out what harmonics go with what fundamental (a bit like quickly sorting a shuffled deck of cards into suits), and in high-volume band situations that's a tough task to do.

The strategy many adopt is to pick a range of frequencies that you'll more or less call your own, so that the listener (and band members are also listeners) can mentally sort all those different frequencies into the ones that go with this note from this source and the ones that go with that sound from that source. I remember reading an interview with Lindsay Buckingham years ago in which he noted that, as much as he loved the tone of a Telecaster, in Fleetwood Mac's typical concert situations, it didn't cut through. Or rather, it simply got lost in the mix. So, for live shows he found he had to go with a Les Paul, because it's more vocal sound allowed it to be heard in the mix more easily.

Your use of the midrange control is simply mimicking what so many other in the world of rock and the bird kingdom do. Being heard is not so much a question of volume as it is a question of being more distinct from everything else.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Want to cut through live?

Add mids and back off the gain. Playing with out tons of gain will make you a better player anyway....


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

mhammer said:


> Songbirds, and many other species (including humans) that vocalize, face the exact same problem: How does one signal get preferentially heard amidst all the other sources of sound? In the case of a bird, the other sounds are traffic, leaves, wind, other bird species, etc. The way that most species have solved this problem is basically to have their vocalizations occupy a certain range and pattern of frequencies that makes them easier to pick out from among the surrounding din.
> 
> One of the things that higher volume will do is generate a lot of harmonic content. Throwing drums in there adds to the general din above 2khz or so. With only two ears, your brain has to figure out what harmonics go with what fundamental (a bit like quickly sorting a shuffled deck of cards into suits), and in high-volume band situations that's a tough task to do.
> 
> ...



um.. ok i pretty much agree with you, but for two things: a) traffic noise most likely did not play a factor in bird's natural selection process, and b) a telecaster doesn't cut through any mix? au contraire. mon frere! besides, doesn't he use a tele still sometimes?


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## Zeegler (Jan 2, 2006)

Turn down the gain, and turn up your mids. The end.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

most metal bands dont use as much gain as you think.

1. lots of mids
2. not a lot of gain
3. boost the amp . this tightens low end (if you want it to) and focuses the mids and adds a little "extra", if you will. go grab a maxon OD808:

drive: 2
tone: 5
level: 8

I usually run the gain on 2 on the ultra channel of my JSX


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## Coustfan'01 (Sep 27, 2006)

Read this, it really helped me a lot.
http://www.homerecordingconnection.com/news.php?action=view_story&id=154

In a nutshell, the goal is to set every instrument on its own narrow band, so they kind of "fill the spectrum" instead of trying to drown each other out. When playing in your room, you usually dial in a "big sound" but in a band, you should try to "stay in your zone". Also, guitar and vocals are both midrange, so if you have two guitars try to have them sound different.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

suttree said:


> um.. ok i pretty much agree with you, but for two things: a) traffic noise most likely did not play a factor in bird's natural selection process, and b) a telecaster doesn't cut through any mix? au contraire. mon frere! besides, doesn't he use a tele still sometimes?


1) Birds don't evolve with traffic obviously, but they do compete to be heard amongst all the other sound around. Finding a niche where you can locate members of your species by sound almost always demands finding a frequency range, and distinctive vocalization type, that stands out amidts everything else. It's why the human hearing range is what it is, and why the hearing and vocalization range of other species are what they are.

2) I'm not arguing about whether Tele's can cut through in a mix. There are enough recordings that demonstrate they can. I'm echoing someone *else's* observation that, in their performance context, in order to be heard they had to shift to another guitar that had more lower mids. So, whether one switches guitars, amps, speakers, or simply EQ settings, the general consensus is that being able to be heard as a separate sound source (i.e., not just something that sounds like part of the drums or keyboards) often demands having a more "vocal" or rounder tone, and not just being louder.


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## sysexguy (Mar 5, 2006)

Most likely the tone you like from your prefered amp (the Randall) is being masked by the other instruments. I've had recording projects where the drummer wants Bonham, the guitars want Metallica and the vocals want Rob Zombie or whatever...... these things can't co-exist. 

Most bands that are successful (sonically) with the scooped mids guitars have bass guitars that are mostly either low sub rumble or the mids the guitars gave up and the kicks are almost snare like (ie very quick and more click than whomp). This in turn allows the guitar the space required. Listen to anything from Dream Theatre to Opeth and then listen to the other guys in your band and you'll see why the guitar gets lost (allowing for the fact that those artists are at the top of their game and have access to the best studios and production) 

Andy


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## rwe333 (Feb 18, 2006)

Some amps do cut better than others - there is a difference between hi-gain a la Recto vs. a la VHT, for example (IMHO). 
I can't say I'm a fan of 'crank the mids', but also don't dig the typical 'scooped mid' thing... 
I often think the best decision is more articulate gear, from amp to cab to speakers to guitar.
Use an efficient rig and results improve (goodness, lotsa cabs/speakers don't throw/project)... 
And - yes - overdoing the gain won't help. Ya gotta dig in...


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

Vintage 30s.

I don't scoop mids, but I don't exactly run them any higher than I absolutely have to. V30s are an awesome live speaker that helps a not-mid-boosted tone cut.

Beyond that... without buying any new gear; reduce your gain to the absolute minimum level that has the saturation/compression you require to get your palm mutes to sound right. Then bump up your mids and lower your bass.


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## Justinator (Jan 27, 2008)

I can say that the charateristics of your amp can be a big part of it. I had the same experience with a peavey amp this weekend (similar to a bandit, just had 2 12's in it). It cut through the track I had playing under my guitar to the point where you could barely hear the track. When I switched to my fender the sound felt more "blended".


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Dare I suggest it? 

Standing by my suggestion in another thread, "I suspect most of you won't agree, but...The humbucker obsession is at least part of what's wrong with metal. Mushy timbre, muddy mixes, lack of clarity. Obviously just my aging rocker opinion, but be that as it is, there's a distinct lack of variety in metal guitar tones."

Maybe different pickups?

Peace, Mooh.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

usually its more an EQ thing or a "what all are you using, and how do you have it set up?" thing vs needing new pickups.

if you know your gear, and you know the guitar, then that's when people start hunting for new pickups.

the voicing of the amp counts for a lot as well.


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## FrankyFarGone (Dec 8, 2008)

With this!









The Mid-Hi knob!

Frank:smile:


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Frank where do you find this crazy shit?!! Does this pedal come with the naked girl stock?

LOL Shawn.


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## canadiangeordie (Jan 10, 2009)

cheers for all the feedback guys. Im beginning to notice a certain trend; less gain more mids (!). I do have the gain pretty beefed up, since the addition of an ISP Decimator ive been able to overdose on gain without the feedback and nasty noise it usually incurs. So these will be the first 2 things i try. I just hate the sound of having the mids too high. As for the amp, its the best i could afford, and was chosen over comparable Laney, Crate and Peavey 2X12's due to it having Celestions. And the earplugs thing is a love/hate relationship, i love not having the ring the next day, but hate the fact i sometimes cant make myself out, especially when playing lead. Is this just crappy earplugs?! I sound like such a novice...kqoct

As for the 3 channels, i realise im pretty limited and will not achieve the tone in my head with my pretty basic setup. I do not have any pedals/effects other than my noisegate currently. Would using any pedals aid me in my quest? Or instead of playing through the gain channel, if i played through the clean using a Metal Muff/Landmine etc?

Thanks again!


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## FrankyFarGone (Dec 8, 2008)

Rugburn said:


> Frank where do you find this crazy shit?!! Does this pedal come with the naked girl stock?
> 
> LOL Shawn.


Its from New-Jersey,The guy there is a real artist with circuitry,i turn on to them after having no reply from SolidGoldFX to my emails.

Yes it came with the naked girl stock...but he alway does a None raw graphical version of his stuff 

Hear it!
http://www.metalpedals.com/hard_core_sample.mp3

Frank:smile:


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

boosting Might help you.

adding effects wont make you cut through better .

you dont need to have your mids on 10, you just need to have them at 5 or higher, generally.

also, resonance/presence knobs play a factor too. is your amp open or closed back? what guitar are you using, and how thick are your strings?

there's a few variables


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

FrankyFarGone said:


> Its from New-Jersey,The guy there is a real artist with circuitry,i turn on to them after having no reply from SolidGoldFX to my emails.
> 
> Yes it came with the naked girl stock...but he alway does a None raw graphical version of his stuff
> 
> ...


That is a nice sounding distortion pedal.


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## canadiangeordie (Jan 10, 2009)

Budda said:


> boosting Might help you.
> 
> adding effects wont make you cut through better .
> 
> ...


Regarding the effects, i didnt know if the disortion/settings from a pedal would cut through better than the amp's gain. The amp is partially closed at the back, i play an Agile 3000M and a Mexican Strat with an Invader in the bridge. 
Would it be something like a Tube Screamer i'd be looking for in regards to a boost?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

tubescreamer, boss SD-1 - two different flavours.

When you are boosting an amp, you are not using the pedal for your distortion - you are simply changing the tonal characteristics of the amp's onboard distortion. I use a modded tubescreamer, as stock tubescreamers take some of the low end when giving the mids a boost - my pedal was modded to change the bass cutoff, as the mod was designed by a 7-string user (and who doesnt like low tunings? ). I actually feel that I get more bass when my TS is on vs when it's off.

go to your local ibanez dealer, and see if you can bring it back in a couple of days, and try these settings on a TS9:

drive: 2
tone: 5
level: 8 or 10

what this does is tightens the low end, makes the mids more prominent, and by this "sucking in of the gut" so to speak, you perceive more gain. My unboosted settings are great for rock, and the second i turn on my pedal its a metal tone. The reason people uses boosts is to tighten up an amp - focus the low end a bit more.

www.soundclick.com/thebuddaproject - if you listen to "metal is best played by the professionals" and then "12 bar" or whatever i called it, that is the amp boosted and quite possibly the same channel unboosted.

I hope that clears up the whole boosting thing!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Paul said:


> That may be "a" reason, but it ain't "the" reason.:smile:
> 
> I use a clean boost sometimes. On the rare times I use pedals, compression is before boost. I have the compressor level set so the output level is essentially the same with the effect on or off. The outcome of that is the perception that the quiet parts are louder. If I need a bit of a boost for a solo section with the compressor on, I can't get it by playing louder or harder, so I need to hit the amp a wee bit harder. It ain't about focus or tightness for me.
> 
> Boosts can also be used to hit the input of the amp so hard that the 1st gain stage can't help but overdrive. Again, that's more about dirt than focus/tightness.



My only reason for using a boost pedal is for solos. My overdrive and compressor pedals are set to the same volume (and sometimes a bit less) as my amp.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

paul, you mentioned clean boost - this aint no clean boost


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

touche, good sir!


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## canadiangeordie (Jan 10, 2009)

Man im such a novice when it comes to various effects/pedals and what they do...all i know is ive always wanted a Metal Muff or a Landmine as the distortion they provide is brewtal.

I found this though, is this the kind of thing i'd be wanting?;http://cgi.ebay.ca/Ibanez-TS-9-Tube...14&_trkparms=72:1215|66:2|65:12|39:1|240:1318

Would the tonelok Ibanez TS7 work? Or the TS808 by Cool Cat? Theyre just a tad cheaper, though i assume they wouldnt do the job quite as well?


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## soldierscry (Jan 20, 2008)

I think what would really help your sound and help you cut through th emix better would be to get rid of the Randall RG100 2x12, and look into a good used tube amp (metal wise i would go for a peavey 5150, peavey classic 50 with a good boost can do some nice metal tones, peavey windsor, orange tiny terror in to a 4x12 cab, fender twin with a heavy distorion pedal, or a traynor ycv50 blue to name a few)


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

www.bodenhamer-electronics.com - TSoVChaos (modded TS7) - still very affordable, and offers a whole lot more then the stock TS7. I love mine 

gordie, you're in london - there is a peavey 6505 212 combo for $700 on Kijiji, and this amp will do metal better then pretty much any other amp for $700.

I suggest you buy it if you can.


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## soldierscry (Jan 20, 2008)

thats a great price, if i was in london I would buy that in a heart beat


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## canadiangeordie (Jan 10, 2009)

Yes, in an ideal world i'd have that snapped up. But ive just shelled out $700 CA for my Agile, which almost turned out to be a 'spare room' offence, salvaged only by dinner at The Keg. Ive also recently acquired a Washburn acoustic, pedal etc without the wife acquiring so much as a new mascara, so i dread to consider the consequences.
Even if i got $400 for the Randall, which seems to be the going rate for used ones in good nick, it wouldnt be possible to stump up the extra at this point, though i realise that i need to be heading towards some lovely tubes sooner rather than later to achieve what im looking for in my tone.

I guess for now at least i need to make the most out of what ive got, which emans increasing my mids, lowering my gain, and the possible purchase of a pedal.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

In addition to all the other great suggestions made in this thread, I'm going to suggest one other, the 80's hair metal shredders best kept secret: a parametric EQ. 
Furman makes a great one that a lot of the scooped sounding guys used back in the day for a screaming sound (think Stryper, White Lion, etc). I found a more affordable one on ebay previously used by a dj made by Rane.
I miss the 80's "big rack=big sound" attitude, lol.

FWIW, I used to have an old Randall RG120 amp...great SS amp, but kind of shrill, yet doesnt cut very well (as you've noticed) compared to a tube amp, even though I had a 4x12 with it. But I might have kept it if I had a my Bodenhamer "Bloody Murder" OD pedal then. Its what that amp needed. My 6505+ isnt really dependent on it at all.


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## Orcslayer (Feb 2, 2009)

Since you have a Strat, trying replacing the Invader with the original Strat single coil pup. That's what great about Fenders & single coils - they cut thru!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Gordie, see if you cant somehow fandangle an even trade on the 6505. I'm not sure why he's selling it, but chances are that your amp sounds better at house volumes - which may be what he's looking for


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## canadiangeordie (Jan 10, 2009)

he doesn't play guitar anymore and needs the cash kqoct

makes you wonder how keen someone must've been to spend $1500 on an amp only to put the instrument down?...

Maybe im just bitter coz he wont trade!


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Budda said:


> Gordie, see if you cant somehow fandangle an even trade on the 6505. I'm not sure why he's selling it, but chances are that your amp sounds better at house volumes - which may be what he's looking for


Thats pretty ambitious 
I dunno, my 6505+ sounds great at home volumes (by design, it doesnt need to be cranked to get great tone), and 5150 class amps move pretty well in the resale market. I'd rather have to sell a 5150/6505 than a Randall RG. They just seem to be more in demand.
If you do try and sell the Randall RG, make sure you mention in the ad all the rumours that Dimebag and George Lynch used them (at least the RG ES amps) -google it- in their early days. You can pretty much sell anything to kids if its been linked to Dimebag, for some reason.

My only criticism of the 5150/6505's is some of the components are pretty cheap. I guess thats why it costs half of what a Soldano does . Mine sounded like a bag until Wild Bill changed the charge couplers or capacitators (or some similar sounding word) to better quality, non-leaking ones, and replaced my brand new but gassy, tubes.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

it's ambitious but no loss if he says no lol.

the great gear depression!


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...easy!

cut back on the gain!

kqoct

-dh


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