# New fees for international musicians traveling in Canada



## Brennan (Apr 9, 2008)

http://www.calgaryherald.com/entertainment/fees+international+touring+musicians+threaten+smaller/8842759/story.html



> The regulations require that any venue with a primary business other than music but which also books bands or performers must now pay an application fee of $275 per musician and those travelling with the band (tour manager, sound person, guitar tech, etc.) when it applies for a Labour Market Opinion, or LMO, to allow those outside workers to perform and work in their establishment. That’s also in addition to an extra $150 for each approved musician and crew member’s work permit.
> 
> Prior to the changes, the fee was simply $150 per band member, maxing out at $450, and that was a one-time fee for them to simply enter the country, which allowed venue owners across Canada to share the nominal cost or book them separately at no extra charge.


I'm surprised I haven't heard more (or any) outrage about this here. This new regulation will essentially kill any chance for lesser known international musicians to tour in Canada (and also any chance for Canadian musicians to gig swap with international bands).

There is of course an online petition to reverse the regulation, but these are generally pretty useless.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

> “They are targeting the little guy, they’re targeting small venues, they’re targeting small business,”


As a former small business owner, this is familiar territory to me. A business license costs more for a home-based business where I live than it costs for a large chain store. 

On the other hand, as someone who used to travel for about three months of the year for work, I have to say that this is nothing compared to what it's like trying to legally get into the USA for work.


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## -ST- (Feb 2, 2008)

I read the article in the Calgary Herald, and I can't help wondering what perceived need triggered the change.



Brennan said:


> http://www.calgaryherald.com/entertainment/fees+international+touring+musicians+threaten+smaller/8842759/story.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

-ST- said:


> I read the article in the Calgary Herald, and I can't help wondering what perceived need triggered the change.


Well obviously musicians are making so much money that the government wants a sliver of that enormous pie.



Brennan said:


> There is of course an online petition to reverse the regulation, but these are generally pretty useless.


A single letter written to the appropriate elected official will have way more impact than all of the on-line petitions ever produced.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## puckhead (Sep 8, 2008)

absolutely retarded protectionist bullshit.


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

Maybe they should eliminate the fee all together and just let foreign musicians flood into the country. By the way, have any of you guys had problems finding gigs lately?


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

From what I understand (hearing from a sound engineer that works a few different mid-sized venues in Toronto), this only applies to places that would be open whether or not they have a band playing. Music venues like Phoenix, Rockpile, Mod Club, etc. are exempt. So are placed that have a back room for music that is usually closed unless there's a band playing. Also, it's apparently not hard for a bar to get exemption status. Horseshoe has been exempt for years.

Since touring bands aren't likely to be coming to your local pub, this legislation seems to be moot. Though, if the above were truly the case, you'd wonder why they'd bother passing it in the first place. Again, I'm only passing on what I've heard from someone in the biz.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

My understanding is "touring bands" includes even those small folk groups/duos/soloists who tour small halls, house concerts, festivals. This is no small number of acts. 

Peace, Mooh.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Mooh said:


> My understanding is "touring bands" includes even those small folk groups/duos/soloists who tour small halls, house concerts, festivals. This is no small number of acts.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


Though given what I'd heard, the halls and festivals should be exempt too, since they're not normally open for business.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## Brennan (Apr 9, 2008)

nkjanssen said:


> That's what I've heard too. My understanding is that's always been the case. Performers playing shows in concert halls or at festivals (other than as part of long term engagements) have always been exempt. Permits are only required for bars, restaurants and like venues. That's how I read the regulation anyway, but I'm no immigration expert by any means.


That's correct, it only affects bars and restaurants and the like, dedicated music venues are exempt. There will always be venues paying cash under the table, but on the whole I think this is a huge step in the wrong direction.



nkjanssen said:


> Does anyone know if the government itself has issued any clarification on any of this? I hate to rely on news reports about legal issues. They're usually wrong in a lot of material respects. I can't find any government-sourced information that specifically addresses performers.


I've been looking, but haven't found anything yet. Jason Kenney has been tweeting about it though. He's touting this as "part of our effort to ensure Cdns get 1st crack at jobs". What he doesn't seem to understand is that musicians don't play these types of venues as a source of income, they play them for exposure ... and the best way to get exposure as a Canadian musician is to be playing alongside other bands who have established followings, and gig swapping with other touring musicians looking to expand their own audience. These new fees are going to limit that drastically and I think do more to hurt committed Canadian bands than help them. It's unfortunate, but the best chance an original Canadian band has at making a living playing music is to leave Canada; and I think that this is going to make it even harder.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

If this gets any worse, the only performers that will be affordable will be Canadian ones. Which means the only ones coming up from the States will be Justin Beiber and Celine Dion....what a horror story! Could you imagine that as a double bill? (I just threw up a little bit)


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## puckhead (Sep 8, 2008)

Krelf said:


> Maybe they should eliminate the fee all together and just let foreign musicians flood into the country. By the way, have any of you guys had problems finding gigs lately?


as a consumer, I want an open market. let the best musicians play where they can, let the widest variety of musicians play where they want to.
looking at it the other way - imagine if you were an on the rise musician, and were limited from accessing the US market.


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

puckhead said:


> as a consumer, I want an open market. let the best musicians play where they can, let the widest variety of musicians play where they want to.
> looking at it the other way - imagine if you were an on the rise musician, and were limited from accessing the US market.


Is the US market really that wide open? If an up and coming Canadian musician told US immigration he was going to be paid to play at a bar stateside and didn't have the proper visa, what kind of treatment would he get? It was always easier for internationally known stars to perform, but for ordinary musicians if was tough.

When I worked for Canada Customs many years ago, I saw a 16 year old boy who was going to visit his grandparents in Florida for the summer denied entry because he told the US Immigration officer he was going to cut a few lawns for pocket money. If an American can do a job in the US, they will certainly restrict "aliens" from taking his place.

There are a lot of fine musicians in Detroit and Buffalo who would love to seek work in Southern Ontario. If one country imposes restrictions, the other has to counter them. Yes, wide open access both ways is fine with me, but unless the US opens it's borders to Canadian bar bands, it won't happen. (I'm not saying some musicians don't lie to the authorities and rent local equipment, but they would be bounced back if discovered and their names put into the system)


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## puckhead (Sep 8, 2008)

Krelf said:


> Is the US market really that wide open? If an up and coming Canadian musician told US immigration he was going to be paid to play at a bar stateside and didn't have the proper visa, what kind of treatment would he get? It was always easier for internationally known stars to perform, but for ordinary musicians if was tough.
> 
> When I worked for Canada Customs many years ago, I saw a 16 year old boy who was going to visit his grandparents in Florida for the summer denied entry because he told the US Immigration officer he was going to cut a few lawns for pocket money. If an American can do a job in the US, they will certainly restrict "aliens" from taking his place.
> 
> There are a lot of fine musicians in Detroit and Buffalo who would love to seek work in Southern Ontario. If one country imposes restrictions, the other has to counter them. Yes, wide open access both ways is fine with me, but unless the US opens it's borders to Canadian bar bands, it won't happen. (I'm not saying some musicians don't lie to the authorities and rent local equipment, but they would be bounced back if discovered and their names put into the system)


So we agree. Protectionism is a shitty thing, culturally and economically, from both sides of the border


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

i'll try to find the article i read...but...it went on that previously, the applications were free to fill out as the Canadian taxpayers footed the money required...the only difference now is, instead of taxpayers footing the bill, the band has to pay for their own application...

edit...here's the link...
http://ohjusteatit.ca/new-fees-for-international-touring-musicians/


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

That is almost impossible for small bar and coffee shops to make any money they already tend to loose money on each venue and then for the musicains well they are going to get dinged at each venue they have to play, so its almost impossible for them to come to Canada and have the music heard here.
I can't for the life of me understand what prompted this to happen but it will kill the open music as we know it now and so for the jazz festival and every other venue we have out west who will be left to play, only gods know for sure because we don't really have enough known Canadians.ship


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Anyone found "the letter of the law" yet? I'd like to see it in print and interpret it myself. Couldn't find it.

Peace, Mooh.


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

Mooh said:


> Anyone found "the letter of the law" yet? I'd like to see it in print and interpret it myself. Couldn't find it.
> Peace, Mooh.


http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/jobs/foreign_workers/lower_skilled/index.shtml

An interesting side note - musicians who don't perform in bars or restaurants can apply under the Higher Skilled Workers category, but anyone playing in a bar or restaurant falls into the Lower Skilled group.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanks for the link. Those two"groups" are not mutually exclusive. Even more BS.

Peace, Mooh.



kat_ said:


> http://www.hrsdc.gc.ca/eng/jobs/foreign_workers/lower_skilled/index.shtml
> 
> An interesting side note - musicians who don't perform in bars or restaurants can apply under the Higher Skilled Workers category, but anyone playing in a bar or restaurant falls into the Lower Skilled group.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Sign petition here

https://www.change.org/en-CA/petiti...campaign=33665&alert_id=JiczjdPpUI_vdhEGzXZfO


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Already signed and distributed on FB. Kill that idiotic cash cow!

mmmmm..... cow....


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## Woof (Jan 13, 2010)

The cfm seems to support this http://www.cfmusicians.org/news/cfm-press-release-concerning-changes-to-lmo-procedures


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