# What if Chibson's weren't junk?



## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

So if there was such a thing as a high quality Chibson that was identified as such (meaning, could not be sold as an actual Gibson), would you buy one?
Seriously, there seems to be such a disdain about it due to the fact it is both poor quality and a forgery....but what if it was very well made, choice woods and finishes. Would you look down your nose?

The way I see it, North America has seen its heyday in being competitive in manufacturing. I do believe the wealth is shifting to the east, and our economy will never be the same, no matter what we do. Offshore technology is quickly matching our own and will surpass ours in a matter of decades.

Should we pledge our allegiance to a manufacturer who has had over-inflated prices for years? Why? 

before you vote, seriously think about it. If you could get the same for a 1/4 the cost, do you really care its authentic/legit?

EDIT; I never thought of the this as a poll question; What if it wasn't offshore? What if Godin said to hell with your patent, and created an exact knock off with the Godin name on it?


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## Disbeat (Jul 30, 2011)

Grabbing some popcorn for this one


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

I'll take the unpopular route. (flame away)
Our money is going overseas anyway, like it or not. I could care less about Gibson or the trade rules that protect it's unethical pricing. If it was a Canadian company, I'd think differently. (Although I don't see Godin raping people the same way, so they have that honour right there) Yeah, I'd be first in line, but I'd prefer an identical knock off with it's own name.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Yes, but a complete knock off, headstock included


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Scotty said:


> Yes, but a complete knock off, headstock included


Why would someone want Gibson on the headstock of a fake? So that other people think it's real? So that it can be sold to an unsuspecting buyer?

I don't know who is sadder, the person who drops $2000 on a Versace handbag or the person who buys a fake for $50 so that other people will think they paid $2000 for one.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## jayoldschool (Sep 12, 2013)

The Chinese factories will build you whatever you want. Low quality, cheap stuff (like Chibsons), or, high quality goods that are competitive on the world market. Like anything else... you get what you pay for.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

hardasmum said:


> Why would someone want Gibson on the headstock of a fake? So that other people think it's real? So that it can be sold to an unsuspecting buyer?
> 
> I don't know who is sadder, the person who drops $2000 on a Versace handbag or the person who buys a fake for $50 so that other people will think they paid $2000 for one.


I thought about this for a good 5 minutes. The wannabe is sadder.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

If someone has the cash to drop on a luxury item, I wouldn't hold that against them.
On the other hand, if someone is buying knockoffs, I'd question their motives.

If it's a quality guitar, branded with their own markings, I'd certainly consider it.

Japan once made lower end guitars available in department stores, those are even sought after, to a degree.
Now, I'd have no problem buying most anything made there.
Korean guitars were once considered garbage, now there are really good guitars made there.

It's probably just a matter of time.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Scotty said:


> I'll take the unpopular route. (flame away)
> Our money is going overseas anyway, like it or not. I could care less about Gibson or the trade rules that protect it's _*unethical*_ pricing.


You make a good point. Who is being the most wrong? The one gouging people (of course, people are letting them do it) or the one making copies and selling for less?

I would not support someone who was breaking the law. However, if someone (and there are some), who make a very similar product for less money, they would have my support.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## Disbeat (Jul 30, 2011)

Sorry slipped on the thumbs down.
But this is pretty much what it boils down to, if ya don't like the price don't buy em, but I don't think supporting counterfeit operations is the right way around that.
Like he said a lot of Gibson guitars are luxury items, but you can find many high quality guitars for a fraction of the price without buying illegal garbage.



nkjanssen said:


> There's nothing unethical about their pricing. They sell luxury items, not the essentials of life. Charging $5,000 for a bottle of water to a man dying if thirst is unethical. Charging $5,000 for an electric guitar is not.


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## Judas68fr (Feb 5, 2013)

I will buy one the day working conditions in China will be better, but that will mean that those Chibson guitars will be more expensive as well...


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

nkjanssen said:


> There's nothing unethical about their pricing. They sell luxury items, not the essentials of life. Charging $5,000 for a bottle of water to a man dying if thirst is unethical. Charging $5,000 for an electric guitar is not.


Charging $5000 for a guitar WORTH $2500 in product VALUE *IS* unethical. Ethics do apply to non-critical relations between man. Tell me that it cant be done by companies such as Godin, Heritage, FGN etc...nonsense.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

why not just buy a ESP LTD EC1000?


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Lincoln said:


> why not just buy a ESP LTD EC1000?


That's Korean, not Chinese. It is also a thinner body and has a few other differences. Still a great singlecut option though, I am just nitpicking because the topic is about details really IMO.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

nkjanssen said:


> So how should makers of luxury products decide on the VALUE of their products so they can meet their moral obligations regarding pricing? Call you and ask?


lol...if they wanted to waste their dime. Then again, they have money to burn. Except for the fines they had to pay in the raid. 

Karma?


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Scotty said:


> Charging $5000 for a guitar WORTH $2500 in product VALUE *IS* unethical. Ethics do apply to non-critical relations between man. Tell me that it cant be done by companies such as Godin, Heritage, FGN etc...nonsense.


How did you arrive at $2500 product value ? Is that the ethical line ?Why not $1000 ?

Ethics don't even enter the conversation when dealing with luxury items.

A $39 Timex and $20,000 Rolex both do the essentially same thing, is Rolex unethical ?
What then is a $500,000 watch ?
Pretty much anything you can buy has extremes at either end,it's simply up to the individual to set his own value point .


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## Stonehead (Nov 12, 2013)

I took a fake on trade once, it looked cool but it was a piece of shit. Bad frets, knobs out of place, and it smelled funny. Traded it for a Mexi Strat. 
Point is there is lot of them out there, either you feel a moral or legal obligation to stay away from them or you don't.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

There are good, even great Chinese LP style guitars. 

They're called Ibanez, Epiphone, dean, esp/ltd, etc. 

Anything built in China, Indonesia, China, Korea, etc.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Disbeat said:


> Sorry slipped on the thumbs down.
> But this is pretty much what it boils down to, if ya don't like the price don't buy em, but _*I don't think supporting counterfeit operations is the right way around that.*_
> Like he said a lot of Gibson guitars are luxury items, but _*you can find many high quality guitars for a fraction of the price*_ without buying illegal garbage.


If you want a fine guitar to play and don't want to take out a loan, ^^^ that is the way to go.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Scotty said:


> Charging $5000 for a guitar WORTH $2500 in product VALUE *IS* unethical. Ethics do apply to non-critical relations between man. Tell me that it cant be done by companies such as Godin, Heritage, FGN etc...nonsense.


I understand where you are coming from, Scotty. The price Gibson, Fender, PRS and a few others charge is not necessarily the price of the guitar. These companies pay huge sums for their advertising and marketing plans. They also pay very large salaries to their executives with big expense accounts. That money has to come from somewhere. So their marketing campaigns "sell" people on how much better their product is and why it's worth 2-10 times what the competition sells a similar product for. Some people "buy" the hype and the product and some don't. To some people $5000.00 or $10,000.00 is not a lot of money. Heck, some people buy $200,000.00 cars and park them in their garage. It sounds ludicrous to the average person but there is a market for this kind of product and these companies supply it. I used to work for one. They had their large volume products and then their products that were 2, 3 & 4 levels up that cost them very little extra to build but charged big bucks for it. 

People like to buy things that few others have and boast about what they paid for it. Lola mentioned women buy Gucci purses for astronomical prices and bragging about it. Both sexes do the same thing with different products. Many people call it materialism.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

nkjanssen said:


> You know that two of those four aren't China, right? Only China and China are China.


Yes I do, the point was, there's many options for a good quality guitar that's made in Asia not just China and they're already here as the mid range products sold in stores already.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Scotty said:


> So if there was such a thing as a high quality Chibson that was identified as such (meaning, could not be sold as an actual Gibson), would you buy one?
> Seriously, there seems to be such a disdain about it due to the fact it is both poor quality and a forgery....but what if it was very well made, choice woods and finishes. Would you look down your nose?
> 
> The way I see it, North America has seen its heyday in being competitive in manufacturing. I do believe the wealth is shifting to the east, and our economy will never be the same, no matter what we do. Offshore technology is quickly matching our own and will surpass ours in a matter of decades.
> ...


Offshore technology surpassed the western worlds years ago and we'll never surpass it. For most new things it doesn't matter where it's made as long as the price is right. As far as chibson over gibson? Since most of my guitars are over 20 years old I wouldn't pay the price of a gibson and I doubt if I could find a good 20+ year old chibson.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Scotty said:


> nkjanssen said:
> 
> 
> > There's nothing unethical about their pricing. They sell luxury items, not the essentials of life. Charging $5,000 for a bottle of water to a man dying if thirst is unethical. Charging $5,000 for an electric guitar is not.
> ...


What about charging $20 for a $2 dollar t-shirt? Is that unethical? If so every retailer in the country is guilty.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

If it said Gibson on it--no--it's a counterfeit--no matter how you feel about Gibson's prices, QC, etc--it's a counterfeit and illegal and wrong.
A copy or an influenced guitar with a different name--I'd consider it.

(Hmm I have a LP copy--but it doesn't say Gibson on it. I once printed a fender logo on paper and taped it on the headstock as a joke--it certainly wasn't to fool anybody.)


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## Taylor (Oct 31, 2014)

I had, for a couple years, a Chibson I took on a trade. It wasn't at all badly built. I had to replace _all_ the electronics, the nut, the tuners and the bridge, but the guitar itself was structurally sound, the finish was nice, for poly, and the truss rod worked and kept the neck straight and true.

That being said, the first order of business (for me) upon taking it in was to strip the "Gibson" overlay off the headstock and replace it with some nice flamed anigre veneer, stained and bursted to match the body as closely as possible. I knew I wouldn't be keeping it forever, and I couldn't in good conscience risk someone down the line trying to pass it off as real.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Does anyone know a good luthier who can help me with a headstock swap? 

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Electric-Guitar-Comer-Series-_1079927732.html

With our combined knowledge, we can build an empire...who's in?


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

My argument in railing against counterfeit goods is this... If we accept that it is ok to allow counterfeit goods to circulate why not look the other way on counterfeit currency, as well. Let's face it, we can probably have our paper money produced cheaper overseas, it will look the same and buy the same products (as long as it is accepted as "just as good").

Think about it.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

nkjanssen said:


> Would I own a high quality guitar that was made in China that was in a Gibson style but didn't purport to be a Gibson?
> 
> Sure. Why not? I own all kinds of things that are made in China - cell phones, computers, air conditioning units, lamps, etc., etc.


I agree. When you put someone else's brand logo on your product, you've crossed a line IMO.

My concern is that so many people have almost zero respect for intellectual property.

The poll demonstrates this.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

I don't care about chibson's because I'd never buy one, nor would I buy any new gibby. One thing I would like to know is how come everyone hates on chinese counterfeits but the guys on MLP can build fakes all day long with rave reviews?


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Jimmy_D said:


> I don't care about chibson's because I'd never buy one, nor would I buy any new gibby. One thing I would like to know is how come everyone hates on chinese counterfeits but the guys on MLP can build fakes all day long with rave reviews?


I am on MLP often but I am not in the camp that raves about those copy makers ...they should use their own brand.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

It seems to me that we get alot more upset over fake Gibsons than fake Fenders. All the time I see guys putting together Partscasters with Fender logos on the headstock and it doesn't seem to be as wrong - if you know what I mean.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

allthumbs56 said:


> It seems to me that we get *alot more upset over fake Gibsons than fake Fenders*. All the time I see guys putting together Partscasters with Fender logos on the headstock and it doesn't seem to be as wrong - if you know what I mean.


That is very true, even around here we had that counterfeiter called Lashing parading his fakes including Fender decals taking a shitfit when I mentioned it, then I had a few clowns send me PM's telling me same.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

nkjanssen said:


> China and Korea are as different from each other as Canada and Mexico. Only here in the west do we seem to lump every Asian country together like they're all the same.


In this situation, they pretty much are. 
They all have a vibrante counterfeit market. 
90% comes from China, but the rest do as well


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## Wileyone (Jul 23, 2011)

This is a silly thread. 

I may start one titled... "What if Gibson's weren't junk?"


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Wileyone said:


> This is a silly thread.
> 
> I may start one titled... "What if Gibson's weren't junk?"


I think Porsches are ugly, expensive, poorly designed and unreliable ........................ but man - do I want one.......................


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

korea may escape that image? how much do you know about them? my assesment is, they ain't sweatin an image shed long ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korea


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

it's probable. it's been one of those days, this week. hahahaha


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

smorgdonkey said:


> I am on MLP often but I am not in the camp that raves about those copy makers ...they should use their own brand.


I don't go there anymore, for a variety of reasons, but I do remember the discussions there --some people felt as if it was a right to have a Counterfeit, others were more reasonable.


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