# An Acoustic That Hates Capos



## gurianguy (Nov 20, 2007)

My main acoustic that I play is a vintage Gurian S3R (medium body size, spruce top, rosewood back and sides) It is in top playing codition, just having been re-fretted, new bone nut and new oversize bridge pins installed. It is intonated as close to perfect as you can get. 

The problem I have is that the sound, which is harmonically very rich, seems to deteriorate badly when I capo it. This was happening before the recent upgrades as well.

I have used a G7th Performance capo, a G7th Nashville capo (clamp type), and a Planet Waves one which has a little knurled wheel on it which allows for fine tuning the degree of damping on the strings. Of these, the Planet Waves seems to come closer to still allowing for a satisfactory tone.

I don't seem to have the same problem with my Yamaha FG 720S. Could it be the neck profile on the Gurian? All comments and advice welcome.

Craig


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## timberline (Nov 22, 2008)

*capo troubles*

That's an odd sort of problem. Given that you say you can hear a difference in tone from one capo to another, it sounds almost like it's the mass of the capo which is damping neck vibrations rather than any problems with how the capos fret the strings.

If that's the case, the lightest capo would theoretically give you the least damping. Those little Planet Waves rigs are very light and unobtrusive, which is what makes me think along those lines. 

You could test that theory by sticking your various capos on the peghead one at a time. Not on the strings, just hang 'em on the middle of the head and see if the weight gives any noticeable damping effect without any interaction with the strings.

Haven't had a Gurian through the shop in years now. I wonder if Mike is still at it?

KH


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## timberline (Nov 22, 2008)

*capo*

Right after I responded to this thread I came across another post in a 'Vintage' thread from gurianguy in which he mentions that a neck pin had come loose in that guitar due to low humidity. For those who aren't familiar with Gurians, they have a unique neck setting system in which a tenon is cut on the end of the neck and fitted into a mortise in the head block. Two holes are drilled sideways through the block, one above the other. The holes go through the tenon as well when it is assembled into the block.

The holes are tapered, and two ebony pins are tapered to match and are pushed through the holes from one side of the block to the other, in effect pinning the tenon firmly into the mortise and snugging the neck heel up against the body in a solid manner without having to use glue in the joint.

If the instrument is allowed to dry out, the pin-to-hole fit can get a little sloppy which allows a tiny bit of movement in the neck joint. Any movement at all here can have a very negative effect on sound, since the connection of the neck and strings to the body is not solid. Vibrational losses can reduce the overall sound long before there is enough movement there to affect tuning or be obvious to the player. You get the same effect in banjos that have been poorly set up. Unless that neck is properly fitted and snugged up hard to the shell, the banjo won't produce nearly the snap it should.

Adding weight to the neck in the form of a capo could aggravate that situation.

With the strings off the instrument check very carefully for any movement at all in the neck to body joint. If there is any, there's the answer to your loss of horsepower when capoed. Chances are good you are losing tone and power when there is no capo on as well, but you won't notice that because the change presumably came about gradually.

Re-fitting those pins can be a dog of a job, since you're working blind in there. Gurian made a special tool like a pair of vicegrips especially for setting the pins, but very few repairshops have similar tools these days.

Good luck,
KH


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

that's something i wouldn't have thought of. i've played a couple gurians over the years, but i didn't know they were built that way..


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

I don't know about the construction of your guitar, but I use a Shubb capo because I can adjust the tension precisely. I had issues with capos pulling the strings sharp before I switched. I'll never use another kind again.

Good luck
Matt


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

i use a hamilton capo, once i clamp it into place i move it until all notes play cleanly- usually it sits in a slanted position. not perfect, but easy peasy:smile:


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## timberline (Nov 22, 2008)

*Gurian and capo*

Given gurianguys' description of the problem and his mention in the other thread of the gtr. having loosened one of his neck retaining pins it really sounds like the condition is symptomatic of a physical problem with the gtr. rather than just the choice of capo. He's mentioned that he has tried various capos with ample adjustment for tension. The one which gives the best performance is the little Planet Waves unit with good adjustment. It also happens to be the lightest of the bunch, and a lot lighter than the excellent Shubbs.

There is almost always a change in tone when using a capo, partly due to the elimination of the nut, but what the o.p. is describing is a clear loss of performance, for which there has to be a rational explanation. Without seeing the instrument the best I can do is suggest the weight of the capo has something to do with it, which indicates it is damping vibration in the neck. If the pins in Gurians' screwball neck mounting system are even slightly loose that would be consistent with that conclusion.

Michael Gurian was a great one for new, innovative jigs, fixtures and novel methods of construction. Very bright guy. His neck mounting system is really interesting and makes neck removal easy, but only for those techs who are familiar with the system and who have the appropriate tool. These days that is probably a dozen or less shops in N.America.

While it is a technically interesting method of hanging on necks, it can cause trouble in the field. A number of experienced techs who have not been aware of Gurians' system have damaged such instruments in their efforts to get the necks off in more 'conventional' ways, since it is almost impossible to see the pins unless you know they are there.


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## gurianguy (Nov 20, 2007)

Hi Timberline,

First of all, thank you to all who replied. The neck pin was reinstalled at the same time the other work was done. The Luthier tested the neck joint both before and after the reinstall. He actually had a book with a sort of blueprint for the type of vice grip looking device that Mike Gurian used to install the neck pins. 

The neck seems very stable, but we continue to monitor this. I am wondering about the issue of the weight of the capo. As you pointed out, the Planet Waves is quite a bit lighter than the others, and the wheel allows for maybe more precise adjustment. 

I will try the tests you suggested about mounting them separately on the peg head area to see what happens.

I suspect that the way the neck responds is part of how the guitar is constructed and voiced, and maybe it doesn't respond the same way with any capo on it. I have owned this particular Gurian for about three years now, and play it regularly. It still sounds great to me, and anyone who has heard it or played it always is impressed with how it sounds.

Craig


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## Tony Burns (Dec 20, 2007)

Its really hard to nail down a solution to your problem- id find a decent luthier and them examine it - when it comes to capos the two I favor are the shubb or the dunlop with stap and adjustment . but the way you describe it might just be a neck adjustment -or a fret leveling - but take it to someone reputable - by the Way Gurian are wonderful guitars - almost bough one back in the eighties - but decided on a Greven ( who use to work for Gurian )


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

gurianguy said:


> I suspect that the way the neck responds is part of how the guitar is constructed and voiced, and maybe it doesn't respond the same way with any capo on it. I have owned this particular Gurian for about three years now, and play it regularly. It still sounds great to me, and anyone who has heard it or played it always is impressed with how it sounds.
> 
> Craig


hey craig. just noticed you're in calgary. have you taken the guitar to jim mozell yet? he'll sort out even the most unusual of issues, that's just the kind of guy he is.


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## gurianguy (Nov 20, 2007)

Hi Suttree,

Thanks for that. I have not taken the Gurian to Jim Mozzell. I have used him before. He did much of the work on my '63 SG Jr, and it is sublime. I have talked to the Luthier who did the recent work on the Gurian, and he feels the biggest reason is the neck radius on the Gurian is much smaller than most ( Say Martin or Gibson ) acoustics. He custom bends some capos when he wants to have them used on most electrics, which usually have a smaller neck, like the Gurian. 

The neck integrity itself is fine. In standard tuning alone, he says there is about 150 lbs tension applied to the neck. I will mainly use my Planet Waves one on the Gurian, as it seems to work the best. Again, thanks to all who responded to this thread.

Craig


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