# Will the pedal bubble ever pop?



## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

Tuesday morning coffee-fueled rant..

I'm continuing to see used 'boutique' pedals sell for at or above their original price. I understand how supply and demand affect the price, and also acknowledge how inflation is devaluing the dollar, but I can't help but think things have gotten out of control.

For example, there is currently a Vemuram TSV808 on reverb for *2000CAD*. Yes, 2 grand for a used overdrive pedal.

Perhaps this shouldn't trigger me, but it does.. Even as someone who is willing to fork out a lot of money for gear that currently does not leave my house.

I remember a thread a while back where someone asked if guitars were good investments to make. I'm honestly starting to wonder if limited edition pedals actually are, when I see people 2-3x'ing their money. I have no problem with people who flip gear as a hobby, but I wonder if the days of selling at an honest price to a fellow musician are limited.


----------



## bgreenhouse (Jan 4, 2014)

Subscribed with interest. No hard views on this, but I do think that there are still reasonably affordable pedals from mass production runs: EHX, TCE, etc. Then there are the Chinese manufacturers like Rowen, Donner, etc. that are likely just fine for musicians who can't afford more. I sometimes think the boutique market (which I eagerly watch and into which I occassionally dip) is the equivalent of extreme wine connoisseurs. You can get boxes of wine that get you 85% of the way there, but others will pay $$$$$ for that extra 15% and argue about it a lot. I guess that analogy carries over i to vintages...

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk


----------



## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

bgreenhouse said:


> Subscribed with interest. No hard views on this, but I do think that there are still reasonably affordable pedals from mass production runs: EHX, TCE, etc. Then there are the Chinese manufacturers like Rowen, Donner, etc. that are likely just fine for musicians who can't afford more. I sometimes think the boutique market (which I eagerly watch and into which I occassionally dip) is the equivalent of extreme wine connoisseurs. You can get boxes of wine that get you 85% of the way there, but others will pay $$$$$ for that extra 15% and argue about it a lot. I guess that analogy carries over i to vintages...
> 
> Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk


Good points. One thing that I will add is that there is a lot of talking down on certain pieces of gear, especially online. There's almost a mild shame in buying cheap gear, albeit some people see it as a virtue. 

If you believed every thread you read on the gear page, you'd think that a regular tube screamer just isn't good enough, and guitars with anything but a thin nitro finish sound like shit.


----------



## Peel Ferrari (Jun 22, 2017)

Asking prices are very high or at least higher than they were pre-Covid. Certain gear - Marshall JCMs are suddenly 2k more. Now this is asking on used classifieds. What the selling price is, I dont know. Guitars too, like customs that might have been $4500 are now 6-7K. 

Also noticed a real attitude these days - the " i know I have an in-demand piece of vintage gear" that the seller thinks affords him/her attitude to say "Do your home work, pics posted only for serious buyers" etc. I saw that with a guitar that was a $6k asking - no photos.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

"As long as some buyers with deep pockets are willing to pay the price, someone will be glad to take their money".

Signed,

Captain Obvious


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Milkman said:


> "As long as some buyers with deep pockets are willing to pay the price, someone will be glad to take their money".
> 
> Signed,
> 
> Captain Obvious


This is the thing that bothers me the most. As long as there is a willing buyer, there is no such thing as an over priced item. There are either people too poor to afford it and are being squeezed out of a market they are familiar with or folks with the adequate funds to afford what it is they desire. It is not the markets responsibility to be affordable to a buyer and any item in any circumstance is going to fetch the highest price someone is willing to pay.


----------



## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

Milkman said:


> "As long as some buyers with deep pockets are willing to pay the price, someone will be glad to take their money".
> 
> Signed,
> 
> Captain Obvious


I am aware, but that doesn't mean used prices will continue to climb forever. I'm seeing popular pedals selling for the same price as they cost new, or above.


----------



## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

TheGASisReal said:


> Tuesday morning coffee-fueled rant..
> 
> I'm continuing to see used 'boutique' pedals sell for at or above their original price. I understand how supply and demand affect the price, and also acknowledge how inflation is devaluing the dollar, but I can't help but think things have gotten out of control.
> 
> ...


But, great gear is still avaible to anyone, you don't have to take the "boutique" path to jam or play shows. EHX, Boss, MXR are still make solid products at great price especially on the used market. Vemuram and the like are not really for week-end warriors but more of a luxury item like high end watches or cars.


----------



## nman (Sep 14, 2019)

Check out the prices for gear, new, in stores. Often you can buy new for not that much more than used. Consider setting up "alerts" in Kijiji to receive emails when a specific pedal is posted. Google "Search kijiji Canada" to do comparisons. Maybe other such buy/sell resources have similar possibilities.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

TheGASisReal said:


> I am aware, but that doesn't used prices will continue to climb forever. I'm seeing popular pedals selling for the same price as they cost new, or above.


Again, the only reason people will charge prices that may seem unreasonable is because people with more money than me are willing to pay it.

If you're hoping that musicians will treat other musicians more gently I think you're going to be disappointed.

People will charge what the market will bear.

It's not dissimilar to scammers preying on old folks with CRA or any other of a hundred scams. They only continue if they have some success, even if it's only a tiny percentage.

Yes, that's greedy and that's humanity.


----------



## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

This is what the clone market is the answer to. Don't want to pay $5000 for a Klon? Get an EH Soul Food for $75. 

Boutique pedals are also mostly variations on existing designs. No one needs boutique or expensive pedals to put together a jam worth rig. I've got a friend who's been playing for 25 years and he's in the process of putting together an all Boss rig just for fun. Did you know that all the records you love had Boss, EH, MXR, Ibanez, Maxon, or other commonly available effects played on them? 

As for the market and people paying inflated prices for these pedals, as PT Barnum famously said, "A fool and his money are soon parted."


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I would add to that thought that very few thieves steal guitars or gear to use for themselves. They steal gear because some musicians are willing to turn a blind eye or knowingly buy hot gear.

When we all stop doing that, theft will decline dramatically.

And that unfortunately will never happen.

Supply and demand.


----------



## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

There is a lot of hype in the pedal world and every new boutique effect is the "next best thing" that will supposedly take your sound to another level. Or it sounds just like the one from a specific show that some guitar legend played in the 70s or 80s or whatever.

If we're following the YouTube shills and the forum hype, then yeah, they're expensive. I've been there. But if you want good-sounding effects to get decent sounds there are tons of options. They may not be 100% cork-sniffer-approved, but they will get you the sounds you need to play music at a decent price. The old reliables are still out there and can be had for reasonable money and there are some really good multi-effects units that will get you 100s of great sounds at the turning of a couple of dials. For example, my HX Effects was very reasonable and when we jam and rehearse it gets me all the sounds I need. If I really sit and listen in isolation at home, then maybe some of the effects aren't as great as they could be, but in a band situation when you're playing music, they are great. And I don't spend an inordinate amount of time dialling them in. I tweak a bit depending on which guitar I'm playing and off we go.


----------



## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Yeah, when people realize that delay and chorus is in the fingers...not the gear.


----------



## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




----------



## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Some great discussion so far. I would like to throw a couple of other thoughts into the mix:

First, our brains crave novelty. So we often perceive "different" as "better". A pedal that is a variation on what we are accustomed to hearing scratches that itch. A pedal that is widely available (and widely heard), not so much.

Second, I think that there is a subset of people out there who like to pay a lot for things. It gives them a sense of satisfaction to know that they have something that is perceived as superior - even if it is only superior in price. There seems to be a certain caché to being able to say "I paid XXXX dollars for that."


----------



## Jaime (Mar 29, 2020)

TheGASisReal said:


> Tuesday morning coffee-fueled rant..
> 
> *I'm continuing to see used 'boutique' pedals sell for at or above their original price.* I understand how supply and demand affect the price, and also acknowledge how inflation is devaluing the dollar, but I can't help but think things have gotten out of control.
> 
> ...


For things that are no longer made, or have absolutely insane waiting list times (looking at you, 3-4 year KoT list), I can understand this. I paid well over "retail" for my KoT, after selling my first one for well over retail. I wasn't necessarily excited about this fact, but it is a pedal I use every day and it was worth spending a few hundred more vs waiting 2-3 more years. 

What really gets me is when things are selling above their original price and they're still readily available? Keeping with the Analogman theme, you see this all the time on Reverb and it's not just with rare transistor Sun Face's, etc, but with stuff you can still order directly from Mike with maybe 1-2 weeks wait time. I never follow these listings, but they do disappear so I have to assume they're selling eventually?

I truly have no idea who's driving the market, either. I remember scoffing at a $450 ask on a KTR maybe 2 years ago, and now look at them. And this is with the general consensus being that other high end clones are as good or often better. Who's buying these things?


----------



## jimmythegeek (Apr 17, 2012)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> This is what the clone market is the answer to. Don't want to pay $5000 for a Klon? Get an EH Soul Food for $75.
> 
> Boutique pedals are also mostly variations on existing designs. No one needs boutique or expensive pedals to put together a jam worth rig. I've got a friend who's been playing for 25 years and he's in the process of putting together an all Boss rig just for fun. Did you know that all the records you love had Boss, EH, MXR, Ibanez, Maxon, or other commonly available effects played on them?
> 
> ...


----------



## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

bw66 said:


> Some great discussion so far. I would like to throw a couple of other thoughts into the mix:
> 
> First, our brains crave novelty. So we often perceive "different" as "better". A pedal that is a variation on what we are accustomed to hearing scratches that itch. A pedal that is widely available (and widely heard), not so much.
> 
> Second, I think that there is a subset of people out there who like to pay a lot for things. It gives them a sense of satisfaction to know that they have something that is perceived as superior - even if it is only superior in price. There seems to be a certain caché to being able to say "I paid XXXX dollars for that."


I couldn't agree more...... The whole industry's outta whack. Where one really sees this theory in action is the ultra high-end vintage guitar market where folks who can't play a note buy them as blue chip investments and for social exclusivity....a substitute well-endowed penis if you will.


----------



## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

I'll take the 'people are shallow' explanation...in that part of it has nothing to do with special sound or tone.
I think some people want something unique and special that others can't have... and if they want to then brag about it on Instagram or whatever to get more likes or followers or maybe a paid endorsement or whatever, then they'll pay anything to have it now. 
Others are investing, given the hindsight of seeing Klons at 4 figures, better get in on the next big thing now....


----------



## NotFromToronto (Dec 10, 2009)

This is not a unique situation to pedals. I do think the largest driver is the degree to which people are sharing their lives online. Someone mentioned Instagram which is just one example. But the reality is that any hobby you can think of, if you spend any time looking into it online you are bombarded with imagery of the 'cool' stuff, which also happens to be the extremely expensive and rare stuff.

I struggle with this myself. Though I've been playing guitar for a very long time, I didn't really know anything about pedals. So when I decided I wanted to actually get into it and have a pedal board etc... I didn't have an existing community or peer group to rely on. (Very much a mancave/hobby player) And I definitely suffer from being influenced by the price and perceptions of rarity. And I know I'm being influenced by it but still can't shake it. The result, of course, is that I still haven't bought very many pedals... because my brain gets caught battling between the irrational desire for the pedal that costs $450 and versus the one that is pretty darn close and costs $150 (or less even).

And I could theoretically afford the more expensive stuff... so I feel even worse for those that aren't yet as financially capable.


----------



## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Paul Running said:


> View attachment 397037



"One louder".


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

One needs to distinguish between a solitary pedal-maker and a large-volume manufacturer. These days, anyone can be a "business", making pedals from their dorm-room or basement apartment. Two things come from this. One is that such persons work backwards from what they will need to charge, n order to make all their monthly overhead costs (rent, car, heat, food, health insurance, etc.), given how many pedals they can build and "move" per month. The other is that, as a 1 or 2-person operation, there are serious limits to how many pedals they can make in a unit of time. This is precisely why there was an 11 (or whatever) week waiting period for Klon Centaurs and King of Tone pedals, and countless others. The ridiculous resale prices are a function of people having more money (or credit limit) than patience, and the impact of internet rumour and legend.

Many 'economy" pedals are clones/copies of pre-existing commercial pedals. Not only does the maker not have to invest in R&D (and paying their overhead while they perfect the design, with nothing to sell yet), but such pedals are also produced using current automation techniques. And if the anticipated sales volume is big enough, you outsource the brunt of the work to China or some other part of East Asia (who will generally not welcome such orders unless they exceed some minimum number). Then there's other things one tends not to thing about. Consider the recent JHS "3" series. All the effects in the series use the identical chassis, with the only difference between them being the labelling of the controls. That allows JHS to get a good price on thousands of boxes, distributed across the various effects in the series, which knocks a couple of bucks off the retail price.


----------



## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

NotFromToronto said:


> This is not a unique situation to pedals. I do think the largest driver is the degree to which people are sharing their lives online. Someone mentioned Instagram which is just one example. But the reality is that any hobby you can think of, if you spend any time looking into it online you are bombarded with imagery of the 'cool' stuff, which also happens to be the extremely expensive and rare stuff.
> 
> I struggle with this myself. Though I've been playing guitar for a very long time, I didn't really know anything about pedals. So when I decided I wanted to actually get into it and have a pedal board etc... I didn't have an existing community or peer group to rely on. (Very much a mancave/hobby player) And I definitely suffer from being influenced by the price and perceptions of rarity. And I know I'm being influenced by it but still can't shake it. The result, of course, is that I still haven't bought very many pedals... because my brain gets caught battling between the irrational desire for the pedal that costs $450 and versus the one that is pretty darn close and costs $150 (or less even).
> 
> And I could theoretically afford the more expensive stuff... so I feel even worse for those that aren't yet as financially capable.


It had never occurred to me to change the pickups in my guitar, or that my gear wasn't good enough until I started following gear forums in the mid-00's. Prior to that I gigged for years playing guitar through a Zoom505 and a solid state Peavey TNT100 bass amp.


----------



## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

TheGASisReal said:


> Tuesday morning coffee-fueled rant..


Thanks for reminding me today is Tuesday.


----------



## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

mhammer said:


> One needs to distinguish between a solitary pedal-maker and a large-volume manufacturer. These days, anyone can be a "business", making pedals from their dorm-room or basement apartment. Two things come from this. One is that such persons work backwards from what they will need to charge, n order to make all their monthly overhead costs (rent, car, heat, food, health insurance, etc.), given how many pedals they can build and "move" per month. The other is that, as a 1 or 2-person operation, there are serious limits to how many pedals they can make in a unit of time. This is precisely why there was an 11 (or whatever) week waiting period for Klon Centaurs and King of Tone pedals, and countless others. The ridiculous resale prices are a function of people having more money (or credit limit) than patience, and the impact of internet rumour and legend.
> 
> Many 'economy" pedals are clones/copies of pre-existing commercial pedals. Not only does the maker not have to invest in R&D (and paying their overhead while they perfect the design, with nothing to sell yet), but such pedals are also produced using current automation techniques. And if the anticipated sales volume is big enough, you outsource the brunt of the work to China or some other part of East Asia (who will generally not welcome such orders unless they exceed some minimum number). Then there's other things one tends not to thing about. Consider the recent JHS "3" series. All the effects in the series use the identical chassis, with the only difference between them being the labelling of the controls. That allows JHS to get a good price on thousands of boxes, distributed across the various effects in the series, which knocks a couple of bucks off the retail price.


I don't think the question is so much about small production vs cheap mass produced, but why there is an 'irrational exuberance" for certain pedals to the point that they are snapped up on the secondary market at 2x, 3x, 10x etc the original price.

What was MSRP on this, and this isn't made by a guy in his garage is it? $2500?









Ibanez TSV808 Vemuram Tube Screamer | Reverb


Reverb is a marketplace bringing together a wide-spanning community to buy, sell, and discuss all things music gear.




reverb.com





To quote a review...
" You’re broke, or maybe even poor.. you’ll see the $$ these are going for and audibly say something about how it’s not worth a fraction of the price it’s being sold for. You’ll plug in the Chinese pedal that you got used for $25 in a three-way trade with the kid who is selling all of his gear to buy little bags of green stuff and a guy who sells such things who started playing guitar in April of 2020, then say, “If I roll off my volume and stack my Chinese pedal with my other Chinese , it sounds EXACTLY like the VTSV!” But in your heart, you know you’re lying to yourself. Cut the bullshit and get a weekend job for a month and buy one."


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> It had never occurred to me to change the pickups in my guitar, or that my gear wasn't good enough until I started following gear forums in the mid-00's. Prior to that I gigged for years playing guitar through a Zoom505 and a solid state Peavey TNT100 bass amp.


And I bet you sounded better to you then than you do to you now. 
Gear is like heroine, it's never as good as the first time and you are chasing that elusive feeling the rest of your life.


----------



## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

player99 said:


> Thanks for reminding me today is Tuesday.


Why bother click the thread if you're uninterested?


----------



## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

mhammer said:


> One needs to distinguish between a solitary pedal-maker and a large-volume manufacturer. These days, anyone can be a "business", making pedals from their dorm-room or basement apartment. Two things come from this. One is that such persons work backwards from what they will need to charge, n order to make all their monthly overhead costs (rent, car, heat, food, health insurance, etc.), given how many pedals they can build and "move" per month. The other is that, as a 1 or 2-person operation, there are serious limits to how many pedals they can make in a unit of time. This is precisely why there was an 11 (or whatever) week waiting period for Klon Centaurs and King of Tone pedals, and countless others. The ridiculous resale prices are a function of people having more money (or credit limit) than patience, and the impact of internet rumour and legend.
> 
> Many 'economy" pedals are clones/copies of pre-existing commercial pedals. Not only does the maker not have to invest in R&D (and paying their overhead while they perfect the design, with nothing to sell yet), but such pedals are also produced using current automation techniques. And if the anticipated sales volume is big enough, you outsource the brunt of the work to China or some other part of East Asia (who will generally not welcome such orders unless they exceed some minimum number). Then there's other things one tends not to thing about. Consider the recent JHS "3" series. All the effects in the series use the identical chassis, with the only difference between them being the labelling of the controls. That allows JHS to get a good price on thousands of boxes, distributed across the various effects in the series, which knocks a couple of bucks off the retail price.


Let me be clear in that I have no issue with paying a premium to support a small business, or a business that strives to adequately compensate their employees. I just find it amazing that sought after pedals have gotten this crazy in price.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

tomee2 said:


> I don't think the question is so much about small production vs cheap mass produced, but why there is an 'irrational exuberance" for certain pedals to the point that they are snapped up on the secondary market at 2x, 3x, 10x etc the original price.
> 
> What was MSRP on this, and this isn't made by a guy in his garage is it? $2500?
> 
> ...


The magic of the internet is that sellers can always find an instance of where someone was asking an outrageously high price for something they own, and buyers can always find a ridiculously low price for something they'd like to have. Both are usually unrealistic and a product of fluke.

But I'll insist on low-production-output as a major source of price inflation. If Vemurams or Analog Mike pedals were getting produced at the rate of hundreds each month (and several thousand a year),no one would have difficulty finding one at an L&M or Guitar Center, and they'd be the same price as an EHX or MXR pedal. But when a pedal's reputation grows faster than its rate of production, sellers find that people will spend more to get something that is hard to find and might require extended waiting if bought from the maker. There's price markup because "they don't make these anymore", and there's price markup because "they're still being made, but you can either wait, or pay me more to have one now".

Do some of the outrageously-priced things sound the same as budget pedals? Yeah. Meh, it's rock and roll. After the first 40 or so overdrives, they all sound the same.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

TheGASisReal said:


> Let me be clear in that I have no issue with paying a premium to support a small business, or a business that strives to adequately compensate their employees. I just find it amazing that sought after pedals have gotten this crazy in price.


Again, the original maker only sees what they sold it for. Anything above that goes to the scalper attempting to profit from limited availability.


----------



## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

mhammer said:


> Again, the original maker only sees what they sold it for. Anything above that goes to the scalper attempting to profit from limited availability.


I don't disagree with that. My complaint is directed at the people selling pedals for 3x what they paid for them. But to a point which has already been made several times, _apparently _there are people willing to pay 300% the original cost.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> I don't think the question is so much about small production vs cheap mass produced, but why there is an 'irrational exuberance" for certain pedals to the point that they are snapped up on the secondary market at 2x, 3x, 10x etc the original price.
> 
> What was MSRP on this, and this isn't made by a guy in his garage is it? $2500?
> 
> ...



And after you've worked your nuts off at that weekend job and you can finally buy that holy grail pedal that is being sold for 10 X its original price, you plug in and the disappointment is evident on your face when your realize you still sound like your shitty self, no better than when you play through your chinese pedals.


----------



## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

TheGASisReal said:


> Why bother click the thread if you're uninterested?


Why bother bothering if you are bothered?


----------



## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

player99 said:


> Why bother bothering if you are bothered?


Troll elsewhere, please.


----------



## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

TheGASisReal said:


> Troll elsewhere, please.


Should I call you a wahmbulance?


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

player99 said:


> Should I call you a wahmbulance?


Only if it is a limited run production and I can scalp it later for 260% of msrp.


----------



## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Brunz said:


> Only if it is a limited run production and I can scalp it later for 260% of msrp.


That's the spirit lol


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

player99 said:


> That's the spirit lol


Gotta keep that bubble inflated


----------



## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

player99 said:


> Should I call you a wahmbulance?


I'm glad you edited this post, even though it was a super sick burn. Have a great night


----------



## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

mhammer said:


> The magic of the internet is that sellers can always find an instance of where someone was asking an outrageously high price for something they own, and buyers can always find a ridiculously low price for something they'd like to have. Both are usually unrealistic and a product of fluke.
> 
> But I'll insist on low-production-output as a major source of price inflation. If Vemurams or Analog Mike pedals were getting produced at the rate of hundreds each month (and several thousand a year),no one would have difficulty finding one at an L&M or Guitar Center, and they'd be the same price as an EHX or MXR pedal. But when a pedal's reputation grows faster than its rate of production, sellers find that people will spend more to get something that is hard to find and might require extended waiting if bought from the maker. There's price markup because "they don't make these anymore", and there's price markup because "they're still being made, but you can either wait, or pay me more to have one now".
> 
> Do some of the outrageously-priced things sound the same as budget pedals? Yeah. Meh, it's rock and roll. After the first 40 or so overdrives, they all sound the same.


I agree low output production can explain $250, $350 $400 ish .. for a pedal. And skipping the waitlist maybe ads another $100, maybe a bit more. 

But there are hundreds of low production, no longer made pedals worth the same or less than when they were new. But a few, for some reason, turn into tulips and suddenly the sky's the limit on asking price.


----------



## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

TheGASisReal said:


> I'm glad you edited this post, even though it was a super sick burn. Have a great night


I love you too. Goodnight dear.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

tomee2 said:


> I agree low output production can explain $250, $350 $400 ish .. for a pedal. And skipping the waitlist maybe ads another $100, maybe a bit more.
> 
> But there are hundreds of low production, no longer made pedals worth the same or less than when they were new. But a few, for some reason, turn into tulips and suddenly the sky's the limit on asking price.


I figure it's like Madonna: something that's only important to those who believe it _should_ be important.
That said, the one resource we will never have a shortage of is stupidity.

Is all of this nonsense unique to guitar players? For instance, is there any such hysteria for a specific product among drummers, keyboard players, bass players, horn players? I expect all of them to be partial to some vintage product that's hard to get, and priced a little higher because of that, but still not subject to the scalping we see with pedals. And even among guitar players, is there anything like what we see for pedals when it comes to amps or guitars themselves?


----------



## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

I think the guitar bubble will pop before the pedal bubble does and then they'll go down together and there will be little phase like in the early '80s when synths and keys and now CGI everywhere and you could hardly give a guitar away to pound posts with. 

But then it will come around again. Guitars and analogue circuit electronics are a fun respite from the world of all things digital. It will survive for the same reason that knitting and fine woodworking do.

j


----------



## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

If someone wants to spend a lot of money on something vintage or rare based purely on looks they are buying art. A lot of times old equipment sounds like shit but looks really cool or something that looks like shit sounds good.

Art is valued by different parameters than tools.

There may be an art bubble. But there is no shortage of supply when it comes to identical or even superior clones, so if someone wants to charge $350 or $700 and sell 12 pedals a year.. that is their right. But they won’t make as much money as Electro Harmonix.

If you can build something for $64 and market it to the point of obscurity and charge $500 for it, you are nothing short of an artist. If the pedal sounds good on top of that and adds some intrinsic value, that is icing on the cake.


----------



## hondamatic (Feb 5, 2019)

I play synth, and synths have gone way up. Roland Junos from the 80s have gone from $800-1000 in 2013-15 to $2k+ now. Yamaha dx7’s went from $200 to $500 or more in the same time.

With pedals, I’m surprised that their popularity isn’t more impacted by the helix-type effect units. They’ve gotten so much better.

I sold a guitar earlier this year for way more than I paid in 2018, but less than expected. There’s a lot of expensive gear on kijiji but it can sit for a while. Asking and exchange price are different.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

hondamatic said:


> I play synth, and synths have gone way up. Roland Junos from the 80s have gone from $800-1000 in 2013-15 to $2k+ now. Yamaha dx7’s went from $200 to $500 or more in the same time.
> 
> With pedals, I’m surprised that their popularity isn’t more impacted by the helix-type effect units. They’ve gotten so much better.
> 
> I sold a guitar earlier this year for way more than I paid in 2018, but less than expected. There’s a lot of expensive gear on kijiji but it can sit for a while. Asking and exchange price are different.


But weren't DX7's more than $500 new? I bought a dysfunctional Juno 106 for $50 a decade or more back, and it sits in the basement, needing repair. I vacillate between trying to get it repaired and selling it for parts.

I imagine that the Behringer and Korg reissues of most of the classics at budget prices will keep resale prices of the originals down. I have a Pro-One, as well, that I bought from the estate of a late friend of mine. The keyboard is wonky, but everything else works. I keep meaning to try it out with the Keystep 37 I bought 18 months ago. I've been helping his wife sell off his gear. I doubt we could fetch the money we did for his vintage MS-20 a few years ago, now that inexpensive reissues are available. Same thing if I tried to sell the Pro-One. I mean, one CAN ask a high price, if you're willing to wait and also willing to ship worldwide, but that's a much bigger nuisance than sticking a pedal in a bubble-wrap shipping envelope.

In the meantime, I've built a truckload of MFOS modules to use with the Keystep, and have to get back to troubleshooting and calibrating them.


----------



## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

Bran new in box $16


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

BGood said:


> Bran new in box $16
> 
> View attachment 397096


I need you to invest my money for me, that is a huge return in such a short time


Amazon.ca


----------



## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

Brunz said:


> I need you to invest my money for me, that is a huge return in such a short time
> 
> 
> Amazon.ca


You're really triggered over this thread aren't you?


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

TheGASisReal said:


> You're really triggered over this thread aren't you?


No? I am not even sure where one might get that idea. 
Clearly you missed what I was trying to inject as humor. I will reevaluate my ability to be funny and try again.


----------



## hondamatic (Feb 5, 2019)

mhammer said:


> But weren't DX7's more than $500 new? I bought a dysfunctional Juno 106 for $50 a decade or more back, and it sits in the basement, needing repair. I vacillate between trying to get it repaired and selling it for parts.
> 
> I imagine that the Behringer and Korg reissues of most of the classics at budget prices will keep resale prices of the originals down. I have a Pro-One, as well, that I bought from the estate of a late friend of mine. The keyboard is wonky, but everything else works. I keep meaning to try it out with the Keystep 37 I bought 18 months ago. I've been helping his wife sell off his gear. I doubt we could fetch the money we did for his vintage MS-20 a few years ago, now that inexpensive reissues are available. Same thing if I tried to sell the Pro-One. I mean, one CAN ask a high price, if you're willing to wait and also willing to ship worldwide, but that's a much bigger nuisance than sticking a pedal in a bubble-wrap shipping envelope.
> 
> In the meantime, I've built a truckload of MFOS modules to use with the Keystep, and have to get back to troubleshooting and calibrating them.


You are right about the DX7's, they were >$2k new? But they've come up 3-fold in price in the last 10 years, despite Dexed being a completely equivalent VST.
I'm sure that Junos and Prophets do sell for more than new.

You out-do me as a synthesist... I'm pretty jealous of your $50 Juno. 
I have heard stories of folks buying analog synths at Value Village in the '90s for $20-50.
I get by with a rompler and a virtual analog synth, along with a Keystep like you (which is awesome).

I'm not sure that the clones from Korg and Behringer do keep the price down. 
The same argument applies for pedals; you can replicate most circuits just fine with a kit, but the originals still sell for a ton of money.
Not that far off from synths either; VST's (free and premium) do a pretty good job of cloning the classics.


----------



## BobChuck (Jan 16, 2012)

.


TheGASisReal said:


> Good points. One thing that I will add is that there is a lot of talking down on certain pieces of gear, especially online. There's almost a mild shame in buying *cheap* gear, albeit some people see it as a virtue.
> 
> If you believed every thread you read on the gear page, you'd think that a regular tube screamer just isn't good enough, and guitars with anything but a thin nitro finish sound like shit.


Funny thing... There's almost a mild shame in buying *expensive* gear, albeit some people see it as a vertue.

Post #12 by Milkman is the best way to describe ... Supply and Demand.
It is that simple. You won't sell a 200$ for 400$ if you can find it everywhere.

Two different paintings, both of them has 10$ of paint and canvas, one of them worth millions,
the other zero.... not about the hardware. You always see someone complaining _*"Do you know how much worth of parts there are in that pedal/amp?"*_

The industry has evolved... the professionals, the hobbyists, the collectors, etc ... all good peoples.

Some manufacturers have made a name for themselves.
... and today some buyers want to try this pedal and there are only a few available.
OP mention a Vemuram TS... I won't be surprised if the seller finds a buyer at $ 2000, and I am at peace with the idea.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

TheGASisReal said:


> Perhaps this shouldn't trigger me, but it does.. Even as someone who is willing to fork out a lot of money for gear that currently does not leave my house. I guess I worry that the majority of players are being priced out of the market. What's considered an 'affordable' pedal in 2022? Is 199USD _cheap _for a drive pedal?


I can speak on this as somewhat of a subject matter expert. I'm a horrendous player, but I love pedals, and buy and sell a lot. Regarding "Will the bubble ever pop?" specifically, it already kind of has, or at least it's transient. There were some manufacturers that when this time last year they'd be gone within a couple hours of posting them, where others would sit. Now some of those hard to hold onto pedals will sit and the shelf warmers are the ones flying off Kijiji. The same way JHS or some other online entity can drive up the price of pedals, they'll also be forgotten about down the road and the prices do so just as quickly. Remember when KTR's were being listed for $2000 a couple months ago? Yeah, they aren't selling for 4 figures anymore. So there is an ebb and flow. But ultimately, you're talking about an increasingly growing pool of money chasing the same amount of goods. So in a sense it isn't so much a bubble as just good old fashioned inflation.

The being said, new TS-9's are still $150, DS-1's are still $80, and RATs are still under $100 and EHX's Big Muff's still hover in and around that $100 mark depending on what flavour you're interested in. So I think worrying about newbies being priced out of quality gear might be a little unwarranted.


----------



## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

BobChuck said:


> .
> 
> 
> Funny thing... There's almost a mild shame in buying *expensive* gear, albeit some people see it as a vertue.
> ...


That's definitely a mature way of looking at it. I'm curious to know if you feel the same way about car dealerships marking up vehicle prices up during the pandemic.


----------



## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

BobChuck said:


> Two different paintings, both of them has 10$ of paint and canvas, one of them worth millions,
> the other zero.... not about the hardware.


Bad comparison.


----------



## BobChuck (Jan 16, 2012)

TheGASisReal said:


> That's definitely a mature way of looking at it. I'm curious to know if you feel the same way about car dealerships marking up vehicle prices up during the pandemic.


Why not? Do you have an example? Same demand but short supply?


BGood said:


> Bad comparison.


No.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

TheGASisReal said:


> That's definitely a mature way of looking at it. I'm curious to know if you feel the same way about car dealerships marking up vehicle prices up during the pandemic.


Wut?


----------



## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Brunz said:


> No? I am not even sure where one might get that idea.
> Clearly you missed what I was trying to inject as humor. I will reevaluate my ability to be funny and try again.


He's a really serious dude. But I like him. Talk pedals or shut the fuck up. lol


----------



## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

TheGASisReal said:


> Tuesday morning coffee-fueled rant..
> 
> I'm continuing to see used 'boutique' pedals sell for at or above their original price. I understand how supply and demand affect the price, and also acknowledge how inflation is devaluing the dollar, but I can't help but think things have gotten out of control.
> 
> ...


Solution=don't buy boutique pedals. There's nothing wrong with Boss, MXR, etc.

I just put together a pedal board I could absolutely gig with for $420.


----------



## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

bw66 said:


> Second, I think that there is a subset of people out there who like to pay a lot for things. It gives them a sense of satisfaction to know that they have something that is perceived as superior - even if it is only superior in price. There seems to be a certain caché to being able to say "I paid XXXX dollars for that."


The notion of the product's history is a big factor. There is a great Ted Talk I saw years ago on how historical events determine pricing.

I recall in the Ted Talk the example of a young girl that was producing paintings and they became somewhat of a hit until it was found out that the parents were helping the young girl. The paintings had not changed but the history or story telling had changed. This example could apply to pedal builders as well and also appreciating in value e.g. Robben Ford using a pedal (I recall owning a Zendrive and Klon before the hype).

I think the satisfaction may be more by association than paying a high cost and knowing that your favourite player or a legendary player uses the widget # 2. Some of it can be incompetency and not knowing the service or product's value and by paying more, it's a "safer" purchase and perceived as better quality (which it may be).

In the end, justifying how people spend their money is a lost cause. We all want to be associated with or part of some group or collective and willing to pay a premium. Some people prefer spending big dollars on a membership, some on hookers and blow...me... I prefer K.K. Downing over Glenn Tipton......


----------



## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

I think people are not as good at playing as they want to be, and a big part of that is they can't get the sound they want, or hear in their head, or hear the sound their guitar idols get. So they buy gear. After years of tone chasing I've learned much of good tone is sheer volume. 100 watt amps cranked. SRV's tone was one I was chasing. I've read people who saw him said he was brutally loud. I saw Gordie Johnson playing a bar in Austin with Double Trouble around 2002. He was so fucking loud it was insane. A doubleneck SG into 2 Fender Twins dimed with a pedalboard. Most pedals put into that chain will be glorious.


----------



## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

player99 said:


> I think people are not as good at playing as they want to be, and a big part of that is they can't get the sound they want, or hear in their head, or hear their guitar idols get. So they buy gear. After years of tone chasing I've learned much of good tone is sheer volume. 100 watt amps cranked. SRV's tone was one I was chasing. I've read people who saw him said he was brutally loud. I saw Gordie Johnson playing a bar in Austin with Double Trouble around 2002. He was so fucking loud it was insane. A doubleneck SG into 2 Fender Twins dimed with a pedalboard. Most pedals put into that chain will be glorious.


I 100% agree with this. 100 watt amps rule. Most people in the basement tweaking their volume barely up and “chasing tone” buying a 100 pedals that won’t sound to their potential till the amp gets a little hair on the balls.


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

I know I am a lot worse than I want to be, it is why I only play clean. That way I can remind myself how shitty I am and not worry about buying expensive pedals. Lord knows buying an expensive guitar didn't make me any better.


----------



## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

BobChuck said:


> Why not? Do you have an example? Same demand but short supply?
> 
> No.





Okay Player said:


> Wut?


Car dealerships (particularly in the US) have been adding 5, 10, 20K to retail prices due to high demand, and reduced supply.

Just curious if you feel the same way about that type of situation.


----------



## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

I kind of regret making the comment about pricing out younger players. I meant for this thread to be focused on obnoxiously high used prices, in particular with sought after pedals.

*It doesn't bother me in the slightest if someone wants to pay 800$ for a pedal, or 10K for a guitar.* I would never criticize someone for dropping that kind of money on any other hobby, as it's their money. I myself have spent an incredible amount of money on music.

My metaphorical sigh is directed towards the sellers of these items who have been continually raising the prices up higher and higher. I remember seeing a thread quite a while ago about determining fair used prices, and it would seem that the old model no longer applies to boutique pedals.


----------



## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

player99 said:


> He's a really serious dude. But I like him. Talk pedals or shut the fuck up. lol


I like you too


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

TheGASisReal said:


> I kind of regret making the comment about pricing out younger players. I meant for this thread to be focused on obnoxiously high used prices, in particular with sought after pedals.
> 
> *It doesn't bother me in the slightest if someone wants to pay 800$ for a pedal, or 10K for a guitar.* I would never criticize someone for dropping that kind of money on any other hobby, as it's their money. I myself have spent an incredible amount of money on music.
> 
> My metaphorical sigh is directed towards the sellers of these items who have been continually raising the prices up higher and higher. I remember seeing a thread quite a while ago about determining fair used prices, and it would seem that the old model no longer applies to boutique pedals.



I think we agree to a large extent, but what is a "fair price"? 

We're not really talking about pedals here. We're talking about money.

When you consider that and just how high a priority that is to many (most?) people, no asking price ever surprises me. I may shake my head in disbelief for a minute or two but that's just the way humans are wired.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

TheGASisReal said:


> Car dealerships (particularly in the US) have been adding 5, 10, 20K to retail prices due to high demand, and reduced supply.
> 
> Just curious if you feel the same way about that type of situation.



As someone who worked at a dealership briefly, this has always been the case. To my knowledge there's no law against charging pretty much ANY price on a used car. You can charge whatever the customer is willing to pay.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

TheGASisReal said:


> Car dealerships (particularly in the US) have been adding 5, 10, 20K to retail prices due to high demand, and reduced supply.
> 
> Just curious if you feel the same way about that type of situation.


It's an entirely different situation because you're comparing a new market to a used one. We also don't live in America so the example is a bit of a stretch.


----------



## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

player99 said:


> I think people are not as good at playing as they want to be, and a big part of that is they can't get the sound they want, or hear in their head, or hear the sound their guitar idols get. So they buy gear. After years of tone chasing I've learned much of good tone is sheer volume. 100 watt amps cranked. SRV's tone was one I was chasing. I've read people who saw him said he was brutally loud. I saw Gordie Johnson playing a bar in Austin with Double Trouble around 2002. He was so fucking loud it was insane. A doubleneck SG into 2 Fender Twins dimed with a pedalboard. Most pedals put into that chain will be glorious.


Big Sugar is the only concert I ever left because it was too loud. It was painful.


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

It's all driven by collectors and people who define themselves through the things they buy. From what I have seen, most of these people are "ok" players at best. The online hype has skyrocketed during the pandemic since so many people are home with nothing to do. This seems to be driving prices crazy. JHS's little band of mouseketeers is also a problem.

OTOH, some prices seem to be coming down. RATs, for example, seem to have peaked and are not moving at previous highs. There is a ton of other boutique stuff that is no longer hip that holds value. Fulltone pedals seem to be falling. Xotic, Voodoo Lab, and others are available at decent prices. Stay away from the hipster trend of the millisecond and there is a ridiculous amount of gear floating around.

TG


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Guncho said:


> Big Sugar is the only concert I ever left because it was too loud. It was painful.



Yeah they were way too loud.

The loudest I ever experienced however was Nazareth playing at Lulu's in Kitchener.

Fortunately one of my guests was a smoker so I mooched a couple of cigarettes and used the filters as protection.

It was still way too fu#king loud. Manny Charton wasn't even in the band.


----------



## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Not to get too analytical about the economics, but if you pay attention to North American economic reports and the Consumer Price Index, labor market participation rates, supply shortages and inflation numbers, generally, the consensus seems to be that price inflation will continue to rise until mid-2022 and probably longer. This is on top of the fact that most western nations already artificially inflate their currencies 2-3% annually in order to offset debt payments. So, as the currency is devalued, shortages persist and demand outpaces supply, the price of new gear increases. As this happens, you force more people into the used market and have more people competing for the same supply of used gear which creates a supply shortage and, also, drives up prices. And all of this doesn't even factor in limited-run products with no future production where the only limitation on price is literally what the absolute highest outlier bidders of the market will bare and what the likely future price of the product will be based on market trend.

Honestly, this may be one of the only times in recent history where its strategically beneficial to buy any and all gear that you want or will want in the future now. It will cost more. Likely for another couple of years and maybe for the foreseeable future. The only real possibility of price decline is when the Covid 19 pandemic is officially over and supply and labor catch up or demand drops off (this could take a couple of years after the fact). Even then, the inflated price index could just end up being a permanent fixture of life and wages will just have to slowly keep pace.


----------



## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

traynor_garnet said:


> It's all driven by collectors and people who define themselves through the things they buy. From what I have seen, most of these people are "ok" players at best. The online hype has skyrocketed during the pandemic since so many people are home with nothing to do. This seems to be driving prices crazy. JHS's little band of mouseketeers is also a problem.
> 
> OTOH, some prices seem to be coming down. RATs, for example, seem to have peaked and are not moving at previous highs. There is a ton of other boutique stuff that is no longer hip that holds value. Fulltone pedals seem to be falling. Xotic, Voodoo Lab, and others are available at decent prices. Stay away from the hipster trend of the millisecond and there is a ridiculous amount of gear floating around.
> 
> TG


Its a hobby item. I dont think skill/ability is or should be a factor in any of it. I've lifted weights since I was 17 and am still average at best in the grand scheme of things. Its about fun and the price someone spends on that fun is and should only be limited by the market, their desire and financial situation. That varies for all of us.


----------



## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> Not to get too analytical about the economics, but if you pay attention to North American economic reports and the Consumer Price Index, labor market participation rates, supply shortages and inflation numbers, generally, the consensus seems to be that price inflation will continue to rise until mid-2022 and probably longer. This is on top of the fact that most western nations already artificially inflate their currencies 2-3% annually in order to offset debt payments. So, as the currency is devalued, shortages persist and demand outpaces supply, the price of new gear increases. As this happens, you force more people into the used market and have more people competing for the same supply of used gear which creates a supply shortage and, also, drives up prices. And all of this doesn't even factor in limited-run products with no future production where the only limitation on price is literally what the absolute highest outlier bidders of the market will bare and what the likely future price of the product will be based on market trend.
> 
> Honestly, this may be one of the only times in recent history where its strategically beneficial to buy any and all gear that you want or will want in the future now. It will cost more. Likely for another couple of years and maybe for the foreseeable future. The only real possibility of price decline is when the Covid 19 pandemic is officially over and supply and labor catch up or demand drops off (this could take a couple of years after the fact). Even then, the inflated price index could just end up being a permanent fixture of life and wages will just have to slowly keep pace.


100%. Everything is going up. If you want a custom ordered guitar, you best order it now.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Alex said:


> In the end, justifying how people spend their money is a lost cause.


So true!


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

traynor_garnet said:


> It's all driven by collectors and people who define themselves through the things they buy. From what I have seen, most of these people are "ok" players at best.


This strikes me as a very gross over simplification.



traynor_garnet said:


> OTOH, some prices seem to be coming down. RATs, for example, seem to have peaked and are not moving at previous highs. There is a ton of other boutique stuff that is no longer hip that holds value. Fulltone pedals seem to be falling. Xotic, Voodoo Lab, and others are available at decent prices.


Any RAT that isn't a MIC RAT 2 will generally sell for about $300. Even the RATs with the much maligned OP07 are starting to crest $250. Fulltone on Reverb is through the roof since them and Guitar Center decided to boycott them. Even here DejaVibes frequently sell for "Save the tax" prices. The OCD is his only pedal I can think of that can frequnetly be found for close to the $100 mark.



traynor_garnet said:


> Stay away from the hipster trend of the millisecond and there is a ridiculous amount of gear floating around.


You hit that nail firmly on the head.


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> Its a hobby item. I dont think skill/ability is or should be a factor in any of it. I've lifted weights since I was 17 and am still average at best in the grand scheme of things. Its about fun and the price someone spends on that fun is and should only be limited by the market, their desire and financial situation. That varies for all of us.


I never said it wasn't a hobby nor did I imply people were stupid to pay high prices. Of course anyone can pay what they want for what they desire; as long as they don't spend the next 2 months trying to convince the world their new toy is simply the be all and end all in terms of pedals, I really don't care what they want or spend. The constant and absurd levels of price justification, however, does wear thin with me quite quickly.

As for skill/ability, I find that _musicians _are busy making music whereas _guys who play guitar _are busy shopping, reading reviews, and chasing the rare and elusive. Of course there are exceptions to this, but it works as a generalization. Unfortunately, I fall under the "guy who plays guitar" category more than I like to admit.

TG


----------



## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

BobChuck said:


> No.


Ha ... so to you a pedal put together with previously molded plastic and metal parts on a production line where everybody is told to do the same and the only talent required is to be able to perform relatively well the task at hand, is the same as a piece of art sprouting in the mind of a creative individual and made entirely by hand (can't get more custom made than that) with colors that were mixed to just the right color and can't possibly be reproduced exactly the same ever again ?


----------



## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Collecting pedals takes up less room than collecting guitars and amps/cabs, it will be interesting to see if and when there will be a peak in value.


----------



## bgreenhouse (Jan 4, 2014)

mhammer said:


> I figure it's like Madonna: something that's only important to those who believe it _should_ be important.
> That said, the one resource we will never have a shortage of is stupidity.
> 
> Is all of this nonsense unique to guitar players? For instance, is there any such hysteria for a specific product among drummers, keyboard players, bass players, horn players? I expect all of them to be partial to some vintage product that's hard to get, and priced a little higher because of that, but still not subject to the scalping we see with pedals. And even among guitar players, is there anything like what we see for pedals when it comes to amps or guitars themselves?


I have a bandmate who repairs and resells high end (like super high end) orchestral string instruments. I was surprised to learn that - unlike guitars where everything is known and it's hard to find gems in the rough - you can find unknown violas and cellos from significant makers at auction and scoop them up for a fraction of their value once properly repaired/shined up and marketed. 

That may be a small market, but it was interesting to note that the possibility still exists.

Sent from my Pixel 3a XL using Tapatalk


----------



## BobChuck (Jan 16, 2012)

BGood said:


> Ha ... so to you a pedal put together with previously molded plastic and metal parts on a production line where Ieverybody is told to do the same and the only talent required is to be able to perform relatively well the task at hand, is the same as a piece of art sprouting in the mind of a creative individual and made entirely by hand (can't get more custom made than that) with colors that were mixed to just the right color and can't possibly be reproduced exactly the same ever again ?


You miss the whole idea... You said it was a comparison, it was not.

This thread is about the value, is it really worth 2000$ ?

I used the painting / artist exmple to show how the value is not always in the hardware and the material. Remember, Supply and Demand was the core idea of my post.

For exemple...
A dead artist set the supply... it's done, no more will be made.
His talent, his style, the clients, etc will set the demand.
The paint and cavans has nothing to do in the selling price.

Same with pedals\ amps\ guitars.., Epiphone<Gibson<Monty<Bartlett<Gustavsson.
There might be a difference in the wood and parts, but not enough to explain the price range.
Supply and demand my friend!

ps: I really really like your 2016 portfolio, from your website. Very dynamic.

Cheers mate!


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Okay Player said:


> This strikes me as a very gross over simplification.


How so? Hobbyists and amateurs make up the bulk of the market. A lot of these people are as much collectors as they are musicians. Collectors want the rare and exotic.



> Any RAT that isn't a MIC RAT 2 will generally sell for about $300. Even the RATs with the much maligned OP07 are starting to crest $250. Fulltone on Reverb is through the roof since them and Guitar Center decided to boycott them. Even here DejaVibes frequently sell for "Save the tax" prices. The OCD is his only pedal I can think of that can frequnetly be found for close to the $100 mark.


I don't even bother looking on Reverb. Too many prices are a joke (not just pedals) and lots of stuff (not all) never moves. From what I have seen, the prices on Kijiji are stagnant for some things, RATS included. The OCD, Plimsoul, Fulldrive, and a host of other Fulltone pedals can be found for cheap. The big box fuzz pedals still command a good price but, having sold a few in the last year, they take awhile to move unless you uncut the market considerably. OTOH big Dunlop fuzzes seem to have gone through the roof!!!

People can spend what they want but, once again, as long as they don't feel the need to justify their purchase to themselves and the world (there is NO other pedal that can touch the magic and mojo bla bla bla) what do I care.

TG


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

traynor_garnet said:


> How so? Hobbyists and amateurs make up the bulk of the market. A lot of these people are as much collectors as they are musicians. Collectors want the rare and exotic.
> 
> 
> > Thats true of anything. It's actually less true of pedals than most things. It seems like an odd target to make such a blanket term.


----------



## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

traynor_garnet said:


> I never said it wasn't a hobby nor did I imply people were stupid to pay high prices. Of course anyone can pay what they want for what they desire; as long as they don't spend the next 2 months trying to convince the world their new toy is simply the be all and end all in terms of pedals, I really don't care what they want or spend. The constant and absurd levels of price justification, however, does wear thin with me quite quickly.
> 
> As for skill/ability, I find that _musicians _are busy making music whereas _guys who play guitar _are busy shopping, reading reviews, and chasing the rare and elusive. Of course there are exceptions to this, but it works as a generalization. Unfortunately, I fall under the "guy who plays guitar" category more than I like to admit.
> 
> TG


Lol I fall under that category too. The gear that I own and the time I invest talking about this stuff and researching it far exceeds my ability. Why? Because its fun and some gear is just interesting, unique, inspiring or just right for you. Sometimes even just trying a bunch of new things is awesome for experience sake. Regardless, I don't think any one use or type of owner is any more 'legitimate' than the other, even if its just collecting. This stuff is all just a product that's intended to be owned and used as you see fit. But I get it, everyone has opinions about gear but some people take it too far and think that their perspective is objective reality or that any gear not preferred by them is garbage.


----------



## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

I'm definitely a guy who plays guitar LOL. I don't really post NGDs much anymore and especially not with pedals, but I still appreciate the enthusiasm for sharing new gear acquisitions with like-minded gear geeks. I do enjoy sharing my gear experiences with others where I think they are relevant. I share NGDs (mostly guitars and amps) with one of my buddies at work who is a killer guitar player, as we each geek out over the other's acquisitions. This is more about how much fun getting new gear is, rather than to presume how expensive or exclusive it is.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

traynor_garnet said:


> I don't even bother looking on Reverb. Too many prices are a joke (not just pedals) and lots of stuff (not all) never moves.


Reverb is a different universe than Kijiji. Reverb sellers assume an international (or at least national) market, who are interested in a specific item. In contrast, some Kijiji sellers will consider shipping, but the majority assume you'll come over with cash or similar, and pick it up. Moreover, where Reverb posts are not discernibly ordered in terms of recency, Kijiji posts *are*. So if you don't post a plausible-enough selling price to have it move quickly, it gets displaced by more recent posts and falls to the bottom of the stack, requiring you to repost and repost in order to keep it closer to the top of the stack and visible. You CAN do a specific search, but the simplest approach is to just scroll down, looking for a bargain that catches your eye.

So Reverb offers the "luxury" of waiting for a buyer who doesn't mind spending more and expects things to be shipped, where Kijiji is more supportive of priced-to-sell, as well as try-before-you-buy.

Personally, looking at Reverb just now is the only time I have done so in the last few years.


----------



## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

BobChuck said:


> ps: I really really like your 2016 portfolio, from your website. Very dynamic.
> 
> Cheers mate!


Thanks


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Okay Player said:


> Thats true of anything. It's actually less true of pedals than most things. It seems like an odd target to make such a blanket term.


I never claimed this was exclusive to pedals, but I certainly don't think it is any less true when it comes to pedal prices. Dudes buy spots on the Spaceman waiting list without even knowing what kind of pedal they are going to get! LOL

At any rate, I need to go and check to see if my new pedal has shipped yet (Not kidding!)

TG


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Yes, this is why I said I don't think Reverb is the best measure of the market in general. Sometimes I wish listing on Reverb wasn't free. 

TG 



mhammer said:


> Reverb is a different universe than Kijiji. Reverb sellers assume an international (or at least national) market, who are interested in a specific item. In contrast, some Kijiji sellers will consider shipping, but the majority assume you'll come over with cash or similar, and pick it up. Moreover, where Reverb posts are not discernibly ordered in terms of recency, Kijiji posts *are*. So if you don't post a plausible-enough selling price to have it move quickly, it gets displaced by more recent posts and falls to the bottom of the stack, requiring you to repost and repost in order to keep it closer to the top of the stack and visible. You CAN do a specific search, but the simplest approach is to just scroll down, looking for a bargain that catches your eye.
> 
> So Reverb offers the "luxury" of waiting for a buyer who doesn't mind spending more and expects things to be shipped, where Kijiji is more supportive of priced-to-sell, as well as try-before-you-buy.
> 
> Personally, looking at Reverb just now is the only time I have done so in the last few years.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

mhammer said:


> Reverb is a different universe than Kijiji. Reverb sellers assume an international (or at least national) market, who are interested in a specific item. In contrast, some Kijiji sellers will consider shipping, but the majority assume you'll come over with cash or similar, and pick it up. Moreover, where Reverb posts are not discernibly ordered in terms of recency, Kijiji posts *are*. So if you don't post a plausible-enough selling price to have it move quickly, it gets displaced by more recent posts and falls to the bottom of the stack, requiring you to repost and repost in order to keep it closer to the top of the stack and visible. You CAN do a specific search, but the simplest approach is to just scroll down, looking for a bargain that catches your eye.
> 
> So Reverb offers the "luxury" of waiting for a buyer who doesn't mind spending more and expects things to be shipped, where Kijiji is more supportive of priced-to-sell, as well as try-before-you-buy.
> 
> Personally, looking at Reverb just now is the only time I have done so in the last few years.


Personally I think for those reasons Reveb is more indicative of a products actual value.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

traynor_garnet said:


> I never claimed this was exclusive to pedals, but I certainly don't think it is any less true when it comes to pedal prices. Dudes buy spots on the Spaceman waiting list without even knowing what kind of pedal they are going to get! LOL
> 
> At any rate, I need to go and check to see if my new pedal has shipped yet (Not kidding!)
> 
> TG


Ironically, I'm currently waiting on a RAT I bought from Reverb that was about 100 bucks cheaper than anything I've been able to find on Kijiji.


----------



## BobChuck (Jan 16, 2012)

A problem with Reverb is that you can see ads from China, Turkey, and other countries, all mixed up.

Some product are very hard to find in a remote location. You can see inflated prices but only from our point of view. Those inflated prices are their reality. For that very reason, I will never use Reverb price guide.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Was listening to an interview with a noted painter on CBC-Q this morning. He noted that he summed up the auction prices of all his works, painted after a particular point in his career. They added up to roughly 250 million dollars. His price, when he sold them at galleries? $65,000 in total.


----------



## BobChuck (Jan 16, 2012)

mhammer said:


> Was listening to an interview with a noted painter on CBC-Q this morning. He noted that he summed up the auction prices of all his works, painted after a particular point in his career. They added up to roughly 250 million dollars. His price, when he sold them at galleries? $65,000 in total.


We could do the same with AnalogMike and all the KOT he sold...


----------



## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

Guncho said:


> Big Sugar is the only concert I ever left because it was too loud. It was painful.


Saw them live outdoors. I got the impression the guitar was simply _swimming_ in feedback. And there's only one way to get that -- play really loud. It really did sound pretty great.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

BobChuck said:


> We could do the same with AnalogMike and all the KOT he sold...


Same for Bill Finnegan and the Klon Centaur.


----------



## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

I've been playing guitar for 42 years, some times people over price things due to " Gear Snobbery " or nastalga.

I have three Univox Univibes and Vibra- Chorus's from the 1960's, I sold one that was in near mint condition for over $ 5000.00 US.
I mean ( gees) , people will pay for things they believe in.

I mean, they are classic and sought after, but my DigiTech RP-12 has a great Univibe preset, that IMO, is quieter and doesn't lower the volume by 3 db , like the Univibe.


----------



## Seance (Jun 18, 2018)

traynor_garnet said:


> From what I have seen, most of these people are *"ok" players* at best.





Okay Player said:


> This strikes me as a very gross over simplification.


@traynor_garnet So you're saying that most people are @Okay Player at best?

Does that mean that they actually are *Okay Player*, or fit into the type of
person that *Okay Player* is?

If a person selling a guitar pedal had to post a video illustrating their usage
of that pedal in order to establish the level of their guitar-proficiency so as to
establish the sale price... then there'd be even more ads demanding "No low-ballers".


----------



## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

I own two Univox Univibes and three Univox Vibro- Chorus's.

I went Los Angeles to sell on off, the buyer wanted it so bad, that he paid a ridiculous amount for it.

Heck, my DigiTech RP-12 has a more better sounding Univibe than the real deal .

Gear snobbery is pretty expensive. Dumble amps, Klon Centurion s, 50', 60's Led Paul's and Strats are outrageously priced. You could get newer ones that play a lot better.

Personally, I wouldn't pay those prices.

Go to Reverb or eBay, they are selling older used Gear , priced like as if new.
Three years ago, used Epiphone Led Paul Customs were between $ 275.00 to $ 400.00, now they are going for $ 400.00 to $ 900.00.
While a new one is $ 730.00 US Dollar.


----------



## BobChuck (Jan 16, 2012)

AJ6stringsting said:


> I own two Univox Univibes and three Univox Vibro- Chorus's.
> 
> I went Los Angeles to sell on off, the buyer wanted it so bad, that he paid a ridiculous amount for it.
> 
> ...


Jesus, would you stop? Half your post is about the price of things. For you, expensive = snob.

You did post the exact same thing on Fev 5, here on this very same thread. All these posts
make you look so bitter.

You are officially on my ignore list,
Cheers!


----------



## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

Thank you very much 😃👍


----------



## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

JHS did a video on "under rated EHX pedals" or maybe just lesser known. 

The Tube Zipper was one of those. I got a v1 from my L&M for $80 from their used section long ago (along with a bunch of the EHX tube series)

I knew instantly these were gonna sky rocket. So I nabbed another one for $180, with the intention to sell one.

But what I _really _need, is for John Mayer to start rocking the TubeZipper. They're listing on reverb for $530 canadian. 

I'm gonna wait it out a bit more, I feel like Mayer is gonna play the TubeZipper and I can flip one or both of mine (wood box and warranty cards included) and take a trip to Hawaii or something. 

-first pedal I ever bought. green Sovtek Big Muff, traded for a 6 pack of beer at a party when I was a teenager, later was going for $400+ because Billy Corgan so many years after he was using it....

-King of Tone first run, sold it for $20 less than the retail and free shipping, trying to be a nice guy you know? cuz there was a 6 week waiting list back then. Don't want to be immoral!!!!! That's evil trying to make a profit on something you didn't make yourself!!!

-Marshall Bluesbreaker (original big box) $60 again L&M, nice pedal but only good when cranked, Sold it for $80. 

Honestly right now, why WOULDN't you sell something you don't love if the return price has skyrocketed? And if you're good at flipping stuff, all the power to you!

People spend stupid money on all kinds of stupid stuff and it's up to them. Take advatage. If someone is selling a pedal or amp/guitar whatever for some crazy money, well guess what? They own that. You are not entitled to something you don't own, and if something is hyped up and you can't afford it, tough shit. 

You want a pair of vintage Jordan sneakers? Pony up. That's the market. Take advantage of it if you can, or don't.


----------



## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

Bump:









Kijiji - Buy, Sell & Save with Canada's #1 Local Classifieds


Visit Kijiji Classifieds to buy, sell, or trade almost anything! New and used items, cars, real estate, jobs, services, vacation rentals and more virtually anywhere.




www.kijiji.ca


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

TheGASisReal said:


> Bump:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm calling him right now!!!!


----------



## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

TheGASisReal said:


> Bump:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Completely insane if it ever sold for anything near that. I mean I guess if you were a multi-millionaire?

But dang, boutique amp or guitar, or a "boutique" Ibanez Tube Screamer?

LOL!


----------



## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

SmoggyTwinkles said:


> Completely insane if it ever sold for anything near that. I mean I guess if you were a multi-millionaire?
> 
> But dang, boutique amp or guitar, or a "boutique" Ibanez Tube Screamer?
> 
> LOL!


Right? 4K can buy you a rather luxurious guitar. I lold

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk


----------



## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

Up for sale, my 1979 MXR Dyna Comp


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Midnight Rider said:


> Up for sale, my 1979 MXR Dyna Comp
> 
> View attachment 410494
> 
> ...


Do you think you might take 500k??? I know its a lot to ask, but i neeeeeeeed it.


----------



## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

Mark Brown said:


> Do you think you might take 500k??? I know its a lot to ask, but i neeeeeeeed it.


*"SOLD!!!"*,... will that be cash or cheque?


----------



## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Midnight Rider said:


> *"SOLD!!!"*,... will that be cash or cheque?


promissory note, payable when and if I win the lottery gonna work? I knew I should have gone lower.... but on reverb they were listed for $750 000 and I didn't want to miss my chance.


----------



## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

TheGASisReal said:


> Bump:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does it come with one guaranteed #1platinum selling chart topping single song inside?,


----------



## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

Mark Brown said:


> promissory note, payable when and if I win the lottery gonna work? I knew I should have gone lower.... but on reverb they were listed for $750 000 and I didn't want to miss my chance.


Looks like you made the right decision. Reverb sellers seldom drop the price of this particular effects pedal below that $750,000. I'm a little short on cash at the moment which is the reason why I dropped the price so low.

You sound like a trustworthy fellow so I'll send it out with one of my pilots by Lear-Limo-Jet tomorrow.


----------



## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




----------



## 2N1305 (Nov 2, 2009)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> Did you know that all the records you love had Boss, EH, MXR, Ibanez, Maxon, or other commonly available effects played on them?


*BAM!*

assuming that we are talking about the era most of us consider "classic", which is probably everything before 2000.


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

2N1305 said:


> *BAM!*
> 
> assuming that we are talking about the era most of us consider "classic", which is probably everything before 2000.


and pre-1970.


----------



## 2N1305 (Nov 2, 2009)

Speaking of classic albums, are there any that have came out since (I'll use my reference) 2000?


----------



## BobChuck (Jan 16, 2012)

2N1305 said:


> Speaking of classic albums, are there any that have came out since (I'll use my reference) 2000?


*Whatever People Say I Am, That's What I'm Not... 2006*


----------



## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

2N1305 said:


> Speaking of classic albums, are there any that have came out since (I'll use my reference) 2000?


Continuum


----------



## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

I find it crazy how much people spend on pedals--but it is their money.
But my advice would be if they can afford it and still pay bills & fulfill any other commitments, expenses, etc--that's up to them.
Although if they drive prices up to what I can't afford I amy not like that.
But maybe that's me.


----------



## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

Bump. It's safe to say the used market has cooled off... Substantially 

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk


----------

