# Boutique pedals - Epiphany???



## b-nads (Apr 9, 2010)

My son's scout troop meets on Fridays nights, and it is pretty close to one of my preferred music stores. This gives me 2 and half hours of play around time when the shop isn't too busy. Because I've been eye-balling a specific pedal, I brought my guitar and amp with me last night to try it out in my own rig. Now, I have gone from a pretty simple set-up of your run-of-the-mill BOSS, MXR, and Way Huge pedals to a board composed of 7 or 8 high-$ boutique pedals. 

Business was especially slow last night, and my buddy who works there wanted to try a some of my pedals out and compare, so we started off with them, then started swapping in store stock on my board. In all honesty, the only TRUE stand-out on my board was a MRX - the 10-Band EQ. That things lets me fine tune the frequencies of my single-channel Valvetrain to get exactly what I want. My $250 compressor, which I had long considered my favorite pedal, didn't really do anything a MXR or BOSS couldn't for what I need - it would stand out as an always-on pedal because of its versatility, but then I would need another to kick into chicken mode. My Timmy - a beautiful sounding pedal - would probably be safe, although it is not a high-$ pedal anyway. That being said, I could fine tune the gain on the 10-band and get some hair on my cleans...and the BD-2 I swapped on did as good a job with a very low setting. 

Long story short, I am strongly considering going to a simpler, less pretentious set-up. Those boutique pedals look nice, and they do sound great, but I don't know if they're worth it for me...especially considering how much money I make playing them - lol.


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## JHarasym (Mar 27, 2007)

You didn't mention a delay pedal. Any insight?


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## b-nads (Apr 9, 2010)

Delays - I like my PCB Mad Professor Deep Blue - it is clearer sounding than the Aqua Puss MKII, but I only use one for a slapback anyway. I could get by with the Aqua Puss without a prob - or the Carbon Copoy, which is a better choice if you want versatility in a delay.


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## b-nads (Apr 9, 2010)

This is all just my humble opinion. Anyone who likes the boutique stuff - and I do as well - no knock intended. I just came to the realization that you can get great sound without blowing the entire farm on a few pedals. I have a great guitar with great pickups and a great amp - my pedals are more seasoning than tone changing, and I think I can do as well without a $1500 pedal chain.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

It's like everything else you can buy. There's some product that are junk, there's good products and there's high end products. You can use them all depend on your budget, preference and use.
Last year I've decided to stop this hype, I have to big prodction pedals, good ones, but not boutique and I am really happy! 
I am no pro or playing in a week basis so thos little units can get me nice sound at a good price!


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## ElectricMojo (May 19, 2011)

Hey,
I think pedals are highly depend on your ears, what you're looking for, etc.
It also depends on exactly what you qualify as a ''Boutique'' pedal... Some pedals are really overpriced for their looks, you're right (not that they don't look EXTREMELY cool).

I personnally had my ''big pedal moment'' when I jumped from regular pedals (Electro Harmonix, Boss, etc.) and bought my first MJM London Fuzz.
I had never been a fan of pedals before that.
When I received my London Fuzz, I discovered how much a quality pedal can be touch responsive, respond to your picking, respond to your guitar controls and be ''transparent''.
Those pedals (and my Les Paul) changed my whole approch to playing. I use my controls a lot more now and can get a whole new array of tone.
This is the reason I love them so much, and the reason why I wanted to carry Michael's pedals when I opened my shop.

But, if you're getting what you're looking for from regular pedals, I wouldn't go out buying a 400$ JMI or a 700$ D*A*M, you're right.


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## b-nads (Apr 9, 2010)

I'm talking more in the $200 - $300 range.


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## ElectricMojo (May 19, 2011)

Hey b-nads,
Okay. Well, pedals are really a matter of personnal preferences and there's nothing wrong with Boss, MXR or Electro Harmonix pedals.

I really like MJM pedals (and a bunch of other companies like Fairfield Circuitry, Lovepedal, Maxon, ...), they're under 200$ and really give me exactly what I'm looking for (touch sensitive and responsive to the playing and controls). Quality stuff handmade in Montreal.

Have a nice weekend.
(I didn't see you're in Mirabel, I'm in Blainville by the way)


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## b-nads (Apr 9, 2010)

Cool - I'll have to check them out - the only pedal company I knew from our neck of the woods is Solid Gold.

Nice - you get out and play anywhere locally?


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## Samsquantch (Mar 5, 2009)

The Kingsley Jester is the best dirt pedal I've ever had or tried. It's just in a different league. The great thing is, Kingsley is a Canadian company (2 people), and their customer service is fantastic. Check them out if you get a chance. I don't get too caught up about whether a product is considered 'boutique' or not. If it sounds good, it IS good!


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## Guest (Feb 21, 2012)

You can spend $ on a new Boss etc. or buy used boutique for the same or less.


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## NB_Terry (Feb 2, 2006)

Three pedals come to mind as "cheap" pedals that replaced pedals costing 3 or 4 times as much.

Danelectro Tremolo replaced my Demeter Tremulator
Marshall ED-1 replaced my Diamond Compressor
Danelectro French Toast replaced my Fulltone Ultimate Octave

In all cases I liked the cheaper pedal as much or more than the pricier one. 
I don't use these particular pedals that frequently, so it didn't make sense for me to tie up a lot of money.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There are a few things one needs to understand about the "boo-teek" industry.

1) *Prices reflect economy of scale*, not necessarily circuit complexity or component rarity, or anything else you think makes something cost more. They cost more because it's a very small business, often less than 5-6 people (spouses/girlfriends included), and the number of units sold has to cover a LOT of overhead costs, many of them an aspect of starting up (e.g., all those books/mags you bought, that o-scope, a better soldering station, shop tools for machining, etc.). The brand name units are produced in the tens of thousands in factories that are already set up and have been functioning for years. Selling 10 units doesn't make the difference in whether rent is paid or not.

2) *Many boutique designs ARE actually standard designs*. There are designers doing some truly interesting things, but a significant share of boutique pedals are basically familiar industry-standard designs with a little twist here and there to provide something that either the designer or their customers felt added a little something extra. The number of products out there that are essentially a Tube Screamer or Big Muff or Fuzz Face or Dynacomp or Dr. Q or Distortion+ or CE-2 in a blonde wig, with a bit of makeup and high heels, is truly staggering. That is not to take anything away from them at all. None of those classic designs has more than 3 controls, and all of those controls are intended to provide enough variation to keep most consumers happy. They may not cover the range of tones that are of use to you, so providing a slightly broader palette becomes the raison d'être for many boutique pedals. But for 85% of users, some 90% of the time, the pedal does exactly what you need it to do in reliable fashion. For those occasions/people where it "doesn't do it", some will just bite their lip and bear it, and some will seek out custom solutions.

I have at least 60 working pedals, and probably almost as many sitting in not-yet-working form as a populated PC-board in my "bins of boards". A great many of them are re-imagined and tweaked classics, with a little component-value change here and there, a toggled option, or a traditionally fixed component turned into a panel-mounted control. But underneath, they are classic designs that are hard to diverge from, and often not worth diverging from.

3) *95% of it is distortion-related*. Distortion quality depends on so many factors, not the least of which is pick attack, pickups, amp, and amp volume level, that it is often the case that two people using ostensibly _radically different_ pedals get exactly the _same_ tone, and two people using ostensibly identical pedals get radically different tone. Being that distortions are usually the fastest build, I've worked my way through easily 100 over the years, whether commercial pedals, clones, magazine projects, or things I thought up myself. Maybe it's just my aging ears, but I am constantly struck by how similar so many of these things sound, even when they seem to be very different designs.

4) *The line between "production" and "boutique" is getting thinner and fuzzier*. Mainstream companies are building in more features and controls that you might have had to resort to boutique for previously. The wholesale migration to digital is assuring that. Moreover, the support systems that exist for startups or small operations to start churning out pedals in the hundreds, and maybe even thousands, have multiplied. Ten years ago it would have been unthinkable for a small company to have wavesoldered boards with surface-mount components and silkscreened graphics. Now its a no-brainer, and plenty of companies we used to think of as boutique are turning out pedals whose build quality is indistinguishable from a Boss or Yamaha product. Is a recent startup company like Strymon, or a slightly older one like T-Rex mainstream or boutique? Is Z-Vex boutique anymore?


I mention all of this to emphasize that there are legitimate reasons for people to seek out specialized pedals. After all it is hard to provide a pedal with 3 or 4 knobs that does everything you could ever want for everybody. But there are _equally_ legitimate reasons for people to be extremely happy with 99% of what their pedals do for them. If it is worth it to them to spring the cash to cover somebody else's rent, car payments, health insurance, cat litter, and cable for that extra 1%, fine. Just understand what you're paying for, and what you do and don't get.


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## Jeff B. (Feb 20, 2010)

I had no idea Kingsley was Canadian.:smilie_flagge17: 

Pretty much any cheap overdrive pedal paired with an EQ and maybe a booster will cover just about every boutique dirt box tone. There are not very many different starting points for dirt pedals and most of them can and do sound very similar or identical regardless of their pedigree or lineage. The pedal world has so much cross pollination and inbreeding in it at this point that it's gene pool needs some chlorine added to it in addition to a heavy dose of common sense. Boss and EHX are lightyears ahead in originality and unique circuit design than most of us solder jockeys could ever hope to be. 

I'll spill some of the beans about why things cost what they cost in the pedal world and list some of the potential expenses a builder may incur. This doesn't take into effect the greed factor some builders have when they buy into their own internet hype machine. This isn't a reflection or a specific reference to how I do things, I DIY just about everything so my operating costs are lower that they would be otherwise. DiscoFreq asked me to do one of his brand interviews where I'll go into my specifics once I finish it and submit back to him. 

I fell into this asylum of an industry by accident and originally had no intention of building and selling stompboxes but that's a story for a different day. I'll run through some of them from my experiences in the costs of going from a hobby to a business. 

_*removes pedal builder hat and takes off double secret League of Tone germanium powered decoder ring._

The costs it takes to run even a small pedal business _properly_ is quite high as it takes a lot of capital tied up in inventory and other expenses before you even turn on your soldering iron. 

*Inventory*. You need enclosures, footswitches, jacks, potentiometers, knobs, resistors, capacitors etc. all in different values and sizes. You have to buy this stuff in large quantities to get a good price on it which costs more money up front and since it all comes from several different places you pay shipping costs several times over. You need the inventory because you can't wait for weeks for one silly part to show up or when you're prototyping you need to be able to walk over to your parts stash and pull out exactly what you need. If something breaks or goes wrong you need to be able grab another off of the shelf and keep going. This is very expensive and it takes a lot of money and time to get to the point of usually having whatever you need on hand. You also need a lot of cabinets, drawers and labels to keep it all organized.

*Website*. You need a website obviously. Recurring costs for that are name registrations, site hosting, if you use a shopping cart system you need a SSL certificate to keep you customer's info safer.
If you can't build or maintain a website then you have to pay someone for that service as well as any functionality add-ons or modules that you need on your site. 

*Business registration, fees, rent, utilities, insurance, taxes etc.* These are ongoing recurring costs. If you can't do your own accounting or finances then that's more money you have to spend.
Utilities and materials. Internet, computers, software, paper, ink, shipping labels and materials like tape and those little white boxes pedals come in. That's more money tied up in inventory.
A lot of small builders are not registered businesses so some of these costs wouldn't apply and most work out of their home so a lot of that overhead is covered. Your "world headquarters" is usually a small room in your house.

If you're a registered business and draw a paycheck out of it the government is going to want it's cut of it too don't forget. 

*Paint, powder-coat and graphics.* Paint isn't cheap and neither is powder-coating, even if you can do it yourself and get good results. As for graphics if you can't design your own you'll have to pay someone to do it and you still need a way to label them whether it be decals, ink stamps or silk screening. Costs vary depending on method used. 

*Tools*. As Mark mentioned you need a good soldering station, which isn't cheap but it's worth every penny and it is a purchase you will never regret. You also need a supply of solder and iron tips for when they wear out and a fume extractor is an absolute necessity now. If you drill your own enclosures you also need a drill press and a good set of drills and you need to know how to use them properly and accurately.

*Circuit boards*. Perfboard and veroboard is fine for very low volume work but you need PCB to make anything at a reasonably quick pace. Again, if you can't do it yourself it will cost you money in addition to the costs of having the boards made for a product that may or may not sell. There's that money tied up in inventory thing again.

*Warranty*. Sh!t happens sometimes and these are costs you have to cover.

*Dealers*. If you have dealers or plan on having dealers keep in mind that dealers need to make money off of your products too and have other expenses to cover associated with carrying your products so your dealer price will be substantially less that your list price. 

*R and D costs.* These can be considerable and is money and time spent before you even have something for sale if it ever even gets to the for sale point. That money has to come from somewhere. 

*Pedal Demos. *You need gear to record them yourself or be willing to give pedals away in exchange for someone else doing it.

*Advertising*. Running ads online or in print as well as fees for places like ebay can add up. Forum memberships can add up if you pay for membership on a lot of forums. 

*Going to Trade shows?* Fuel, hotel, food, gear rental, promo materials etc, with no guarantee of a return on all the money you spend to do it. 

*Paypal and bank charges*. Paypal fees are high and they take a percentage of every dollar you make as well as occasionally withholding your payment under some circumstances (money you need for capital) for weeks. If you're dealing in Canadian Dollars they'll screw you on the exchange rate too and you need a bank account to put all the burlap sacks with dollar signs on them full of money in.

Most importantly you need a day job (almost all of us have one) or other source of income as you can't sustain yourself or your family long term on this alone unless you are selling a lot of pedals _consistently over a long period of time_ and you need to balance your work/family/pedal builder life and have time to do all the administration duties of owning a business like emails, finances, inventory, ordering etc. If someone has delusions of grandeur of making it rich building pedals with legions of fanboys they need their head checked and their soldering iron taken away from them.

It is fun though.

_*Puts hat and ring back on.


_Devi Ever made this and posted it a while back which has a lot of truth to it.

_










_


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

While I certainly acknowledge everything Jeff has on his list, there are some aspects that are in many respects easier and cheaper for pedal-makers to get into, than for amp makers or guitar-makers. Obviously, things like setting up a website or travel costs to attend trade shows, or business fees, are going to cost you the same pretty much regardless of what you are making. But inventory costs and tool/supplies related costs for a timid foray into pedal-making ARE decidedly cheaper than entering into amp or guitar-making. I have this pet theory that, with few exceptions, one of the reasons why amp-makers are so forthcoming with their methods and designs, while pedal-makers are often very guarded and use things like epoxy-covered circuits or sanding off component identifying info, is because they have a pretty good sense that no one is going to venture into it unless they either can provide a top-quality build or have some clear innovations to offer, simply because it is that much more costly to start up.

Pedal-making as a primary revenue stream IS a gamble.


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## k tone (Oct 7, 2008)

I sold off/ traded most of my boutique stuff a while back for MXR/ Boss/ Line 6/ Hardwire/ EHX type stuff. I had found some reliablity/ noise issues with some of them but as the OP stated I did not find they added much over the off the shelf stuff.


I do however have one of Maritime's prototype Ge Fuzzfaces (the red one that he modded for me w/ an adapter jack) that will never leave!


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

I'm not sure if you would classify Earthquaker Devices, MJM, HBE, Barber and Fairfield Circuitry "boutique" pedals but I acquired them all for about the same prices as BOSS, Line 6, EHX equivalents.

I recently took apart my pedalboard and started from scratch. With the exception of one pedal they all came in between $100-150. Some used, one trade and the HBE Germania was brand new for $115.

Personally I prefer them to the EHX, BOSS, Danelectro Marshall pedals they replaced.

Having said that it's all about the guitarist in the end, not the gear. I think many of us get caught up in GAS and forget that.

What these pedals do provide me is inspiration to play and not because they're Boutique but because they're "new" to me. I also have a $40 Behringer delay pedal on my board which is just as fun as my $180 EQD Bit Commander....well maybe not quite as much fun.


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## NB_Terry (Feb 2, 2006)

hardasmum said:


> I'm not sure if you would classify Earthquaker Devices, MJM, HBE, Barber and Fairfield Circuitry "boutique" pedals but I acquired them all for about the same prices as BOSS, Line 6, EHX equivalents.
> 
> I recently took apart my pedalboard and started from scratch. With the exception of one pedal they all came in between $100-150. Some used, one trade and the HBE Germania was brand new for $115.
> 
> ...


Those are all boutique. Used boutique is the way to go most of the time. 

Lots of great pedals for around $100 out there.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Good thread. Great posts from Mark and Jeff, should be stickied.

I went hog wild starting a little over a year ago, obtaining, powering and filling a pedalboard.
Mostly new (whoops), mostly spendy. I figured, frick it, just do it.
One of the bigger problems I found, was finding the right distortion. That took a few tries.
Then I went on a bit of a fuzz binge. I'm happy with what I've ended up with though. 
I better be.

I lolled at your "hat and ring" comment Jeff, good stuff.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Though I'm not sure what it adds to the discussion, I think one ought to make a distinction between boutique-makers that produce pedals AS their full-time gig, and pedal-makers that do it *on top of* a full-time job. As far as I know, Guillaume Fairfield and Tim Larwill have full-time jobs. Greg at Solid Gold FX does it as a full-time gig, and so does Steve Bragg at Empress. In some instances, the income may well be tantamount to a part-time gig, but the individual is doing all the building themselves. I know Tim was initially contracting out the PCB-making and chassis machining/finishing, but he was the person doing all the soldering. That has since been replaced by jobbers doing wave soldering, leaving Tim more time with his family.

Once the fabrication gets turned over to others, the options for custom work, and tailoring the build to a specific customer, become limited, even though the product itself may be distinctive in many other ways.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

That's interesting Mark, I wasn't even aware that some of these guys have other gigs.

So do you think that it's a reason for the pedal boom?
Lower start up, as opposed to amp or guitar building and the ability to do it on the side?
Would being able to give up the 9 to 5 job be the goal of a side job pedal builder?


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

I can't find the full movie at the moment but in the "Fuzz - Sound that Revolutionized the World" documentary there's a couple interesting bits with the guys behind Death by Audio. 

I think of their pedals as being a little expensive but from this doc I get the impression they're probably breaking even (maybe!) and are in it because of a passion for music, guitars and electronics.

Worth a view if you can find the full length film.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWlecBc2cfQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Yes, that's a good vid.

[video=youtube;FN9ZERWgw0o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FN9ZERWgw0o[/video]


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## ElectricMojo (May 19, 2011)

That's really a cool movie!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

sulphur said:


> That's interesting Mark, I wasn't even aware that some of these guys have other gigs.
> 
> So do you think that it's a reason for the pedal boom?
> Lower start up, as opposed to amp or guitar building and the ability to do it on the side?
> Would being able to give up the 9 to 5 job be the goal of a side job pedal builder?


Oh I think the reason for the boutique boom is pretty clear. At least it is to me.

1) Increased availability of materials: The omnipresence of Hammond boxes and clones, 3PDT stompswitches, knobs, etc., and sourcing of semiconductors and passive components, is way beyond what I could do in 1978, and even in 1990. Any doofus can get their hands on all the materials needed to produce pedals. Heck, you can even save yourself the step of machining and painting enclosures by buying predrilled powder-coated boxes. 

2) Toner transfer and PCB design/fabrication. Even as hobbyist, I can go from seeing something I'd like to make to having it etched, drilled, populated and wired, in under 90 minutes in some instances, for something that might have taken me a few days in bygone years. The software for PCB layout, and the miracle of toner-transfer and small-order PCB fabrication houses, makes entry into PCB-based pedal-making ridiculously easy. Not all that hard for someone who imagines starting out with maybe 50 units each of 2-3 products.

3) Availability of information. Not just forums like this, but the widespread availability of schematics collected over the years, and the generous sharing of advice and ideas, makes it that much easier for people to come up with stuff, which leads me to....

4) The glut of product. Go to pedalgeek or musictoyz or any other site that caters to folks with refined or expanded tastes, and you'll see so much product that it becomes unbelievably easy for any doofus to think they have something new and different, and portray themselves as such with their ad copy (I dare you to be able to tell what is different and similar about a great many pedals based on their promotional descriptions). Moreover, since there are so many small-time builders whose product will _never ever _be available for a test run in your home town or favourite store, it becomes that much harder for folks to realize they have a redundant product, but also that much easier to do small runs and sell locally as if it _was_ unique. 

I'm not trying to sound cynical. I'm just saying that the circumstances are ripe for people thinking there is a market for what they'd like to make, maybe thinking it is bigger than it really is, and having very few material obstacles to getting started doing it. I make a pretty mean grilled cheese sandwich on occasion. Happily, I don't translate that into the sense that I can open a restaurant making them. The glut of pedal-makers comes partly from the same thing that leads to front-lawn lemonade stands: its easy to make lemonade, and you don't have to invest or risk much to sit in front of your house on a hot day and sell it to neighbours. Making a go of a full-time business is a whole other thing.

As I keep reminding folks, you will never get rich or pay your mortgage making fuzzboxes. You MIGHT make a decent living if you are a good businessman who just _happens_ to make fuzzboxes. People keep suggesting to me "Hey Mark, you should start a pedal business". I* can *make a very decent pedal, to be sure, but I'm no businessman.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Mmmmmm....

The Grilled Cheese Overdrive.


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## b-nads (Apr 9, 2010)

All great points, Hammer. I think marketting, itself, adds a great deal to the hype. Tell me Wampler didn't take off like mad since Mason and Paisley started endorsing him. Now don't get me wrong - I have 2 of Brian's pedals, and they are excellent, and this thread was never to suggest that boutique pedal are not good or worth the money for someone - I hope it didn't come across that way. It was more about whether or not I feel like I need to go that route.


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## Jeff B. (Feb 20, 2010)

hardasmum said:


> I can't find the full movie at the moment but in the "Fuzz - Sound that Revolutionized the World" documentary there's a couple interesting bits with the guys behind Death by Audio.
> 
> I think of their pedals as being a little expensive but from this doc I get the impression they're probably breaking even (maybe!) and are in it because of a passion for music, guitars and electronics.
> 
> ...


 It's an interesting movie, I usually watch it a few times a year. I believe the footage was shot wayback in 2006 so a lot of things have changed for some of the builders by now. 
I like the segments Jeorge Tripps the best, if they shot that movie today I'm sure there would be more of him in it but the DBA guys are quite amusing. I wish the filmmaker would release the raw footage or put it all up on Youtube as I'm sure there is a lot of interesting things waiting to be seen. My favorite comment in the movie is when David Main of D*A*M holds up a vintage OC81D transistor and says "that these are what people like to see." Those 8 words speak volumes if you can read between the lines. 

Once a builder gets to the point of being able to outsource most of the work it becomes a lot easier.
You can get order enclosures already finished and silk-screened as well as a populated and assembled PCB so then all you have to do is really just install the PCB in the enclosure, perhaps a very small bit of off-board wiring, put the knobbies on it and test it. If you're at this point you could potentially do all of this in your living room and easily keep up with demand and have more time for other things like jobs and family. As resistance to surface mount components continues to decline and with the increasing obsolescence of more and more "traditional" through hole parts it is likely that more builders will adopt this method of production building over time assuming they are willing or capable of adapting and changing. I suspect that this along with a few other factors will be the eventual "chlorine in the pedal gene pool" I alluded to in the previous post. 

I have not worked at all with surface mount parts yet but likely will in some capacity eventually. Some of the benefits of using SMT are being able to put more features and parts into a smaller pedal in addition to easier and less expensive manufacturing a great benefit to SMT is not having to cut off all the excess leads sticking out the bottom of the PCB's. One or two PCB's isn't bad to do but when your faced with snipping off 1000's of wire leads it does get tedious and messy. For builders that are concerned with keeping their designs private SMT makes it much harder to trace without the need for gooping the pedal. Gooping a circuit is for either the unimaginative or those who have something shameful to hide. The plastic cased remote control for my TV isn't gooped and that has received more abuse than any aluminum boxed pedal ever will and it still works fine. All gooping does it draw attention to the pedal's circuit, usually for all the wrong reasons. 
If someone want to make their pedal hard to trace all they have to do is use a 4 or 6 layer PCB with a blank plane on the top and bottom, this way has no goop and can still be easily repaired and if using SMT in part or in whole makes it harder still. A multi-layer PCB also makes it much easier to do the PCB layout and design as you are not as limited with your parts placement. Unless your pedals are going to be used underwater, subject to an ongoing beer bath or subject to extremely violent physical shocks any builders argument for gooping a pedal has just been rendered irrelevant. 
A well thoughout and produced PCB is a work of art to me and other pedal geeks it's a shame to hide it under a mess of hard slime. Sorry for the gooping rant, I'm not sure how I ended up on that topic. 

For those who also make their own boards the Dollarama has some great photo paper for toner transfers. It's the Polaroid kind for inkjet printers 8.5" x 11" sold in 15 sheet packages for $2. It's probably the best I've used in my experience, better that the Staples brand and almost as good as the PNP blue. I find it transfers really well and quickly and the paper backing comes off really easy when it's wet.

To get this thread somewhat back on topic evaluating your tone needs (not wants) and using your ears will guide you as to whether you buy a "boutique" pedal or a "regular" pedal. 
Write down your requirements for what you need and will use (true bypass or buffered, low or high gain, tap tempo or not etc.) stick to that and then go out and research some brands that have what you need and try them in person if you can or find demos on Youtube with a similar setup to yours. Use your ears and not your eyes as it is all about the sound after all that matters and not what's on the outside of the box.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Sorry to repost this a second time but I think it is relevant to the OP's comments. My apologies if you've already read it. 



hardasmum said:


> There are too many choices which makes it impossible to decide what to buy and once we do make a purchase we second guess ourselves because with all the choices there must be another pedal that is 2% better.
> 
> Up until recently I had the same five pedals on my board for 15 years. I recorded records and played live and no one ever told me my tone sucked.
> 
> ...


Since I first posted this I have finished my new board. I am happy with my new pedals and getting back to playing with less tweaking.

Was it worth the journey and investment of time and money? 

The jury is still out on that one.


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## ElectricMojo (May 19, 2011)

Jeff B. said:


> To get this thread somewhat back on topic evaluating your tone needs (not wants) and using your ears will guide you as to whether you buy a "boutique" pedal or a "regular" pedal. Write down your requirements for what you need and will use (true bypass or buffered, low or high gain, tap tempo or not etc.) stick to that and then go out and research some brands that have what you need and try them in person if you can or find demos on Youtube with a similar setup to yours. Use your ears and not your eyes as it is all about the sound after all that matters and not what's on the outside of the box.


Best suggestion so far.


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## b-nads (Apr 9, 2010)

LOL - you just nailed me to a T, Hardasmum:

_''So I have gone about buying and selling a bunch of pedals and got a new amp and overall I don't think my tone has improved. If anything I am overwhelmed by gadgets and options and can't focus on my playing because I am constantly tweaking knobs and watching YouTube videos for other, newer, better pedals. 

I miss those old days and my mass produced pedals."

_I've really only been using pedals for the last two years - that's how long I've been playing and electric guitar I'll be the first guy to admit I am far from great, and that is probably a big part of the reason I'm starting to feel this way. Without starting a big - should lesser players play lesser gear - debate, the fact is, I don't think I bring enough to the table to demand anything from a $250 Paisley drive that a $90 MXR Badass OD wouldn't do. I'm leaning towards cutting back to 5 or 6 pedals because I want to focus more on the playing, and less of the stomping...and yes, I've emptied some very good rum and scotch bottles while exploring the plethora of pedal vids on Youtube.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

And I think it is also worth saying that a great many users don't understand enough about the workings of their pedals to be able to extract the most out of them, and may get frustrated prematurely and perceive their solution to be "fancier" pedals at the perimeter of the industry. Their plain vanilla name brand pedals may well offer them a great deal more than they believe. Heck, I used to get some great reverse-tape effects in the 70's from my Univox compressor, MXR 6-band, and MXR Envelope Filter. Who woulda thunk it? I have never found anything lacking in Prince's guitar tones, and the guy is pretty much 95% Boss pedals.

In some respects, the urge to migrate to boutique pedals is a bit like the way some folks feel compelled to upgrade their computers regularly. It may be the case that they have not yet exhausted the capacity of their system, but the specs on the new stuff are SOOOOOOO compelling, that they feel the need to abandon the old and acquire the new.

The tone may not be 100% in your hands, but between your hands and the pedals you have, there is often a whole lot more in there that's unexplored. Try it out.

There is also the misperception that there is only one way to connect the pedals one has. New sounds can be achieved from otherwise unexceptional pedals by changing their order, or running them in parallel, or patching them some other way.

Sometimes what lets you get more out of a pedal can be very simple. Here's something I built for myself the other day (hope the image shows up, I can't see it at work). It is a simple modulated delay, using a cheap (is 51 cents cheap enough?) Princeton delay chip. The number of budget hybrid (analog+digital) modulated delays on the market is huge. Since this one has a "tails" function (i.e., stuff in the delay path spools out even when you hit bypass), I built in a couple of momentary buttons that increase its performance capabilities. The green button on the left, labelled "punch in", lets me engage the delay for a phrase or even a single note, and the moment I lift my foot, nothing more is added to the delay path. Naturally, the first thing I had to try with it was the solo at the end of "Don't Stop Believing", where Neal Schon has the 3 overlapping notes where he briefly harmonizes with himself. Worked like a charm. I'm pretty confident this could be implemented on loads of other industry-standard pedals, perhaps as a remote footswitch plugging into a jack on the side.:


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Mark...just to let you know that the image does show up. Great looking pedal with cool functions !!

I hope you don't mind me asking, but using your Echo-Base Delay as an example, could you sell the design (or concept, or both) for this pedal to one of the major pedal manufacturers? Is this done often?

Cheers

Dave


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Well *I* certainly wouldn't, because it's someobody else's design from the DIY Stompbox forum. And of course, now that there is a schematic and PCB layout posted publicly, I'm not so sure it represents a commercial prospect anymore.

The added switches are more in line with after-market mods like what Robert Keeley or Brian Wampler do in adding a slight change to an existing pedal. Frankly, I'm surprised no one out there is providing a service whereby they drill a hole into the side of your Boss or DOD pedal and install a mini phone jack for people to connect their pedals up to a row of momentary switches. It is a trivial matter to add a momentary switch, in parallel with the foot treadle, in another location, so you can patch/locate your pedals where you need to stick them but have their bypassing organized better.

The bypassing does NOT have to be true bypass via the hard-click stompswitches. The switches used by Boss, Ibanez, DOD, and so many others are a simple SPST momentary switch that one can implement is a multitude of ways. Moreover, using remote actuation involves less nuisance and "audio risk" than running shielded patch cords to and from a loop selector, since you're only routing one cable (not two) that doesn't carry any audio. All it would take is a simple 1/8" mini phone jack on the side to do the job, with a mini phone plug and a simple 2-conductor cable (just like what you see on wall warts - no shielding needed) coming out and connecting to a momentary switch somewhere else.

There, if somebody wants a sideline business, offer to mod commercial pedals for remote bypassing.

Oh, and thanks for the compliment. Much appreciated.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mhammer said:


> Well *I* certainly wouldn't, because it's someobody else's design from the DIY Stompbox forum. And of course, now that there is a schematic and PCB layout posted publicly, I'm not so sure it represents a commercial prospect anymore.


I didn't realize the above from reading your initial post (i.e., #32).

Cheers

Dave


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