# Vintage Martin vs new



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

This isn't a general comparison just my experience as it pertains to my experience this morning. I've been looking at picking up a D-18. My budget is about $3k CA ($2,300 US) but if I found a vintage that I might be interested I could maybe stretch as far 4K ($3,000 US) but really don't want to.
So I found this 1969 D-18 online at a music store a couple hours from me. But the owner also had a music store in the town where I work just a couple blocks from my office. So he arranged to send this 69 D-18 (asking $4,500 CA) down so that I could check it out. He also sent a 1960 D-28 ($10,000 CA) and a 1984 limited edition adi D-28 ($10,000 CA)
I said if I found something that could replace my HD28-V I could possibly sell it in favour of a better (to me) D-28 But I told him I'd never spend near $10K to do it. But he wanted me to check out these D-28s anyway.
So all I can say is "WOW". I never expected the vintage guitars to be so bad. The shape of the 69 D-18 was pretty rough for 4K mostly the back of the neck. It was like a bumpy gravel road sliding your hand up and down it. The body was pretty good for a 69 but I think I'd rather have visible roughness in plain sight rather than where I have to play it with my hand. 
My thoughts:


1960 D-28: I found this was the worst of the 3. To be fair the strings weren't great. They weren't dead but they weren't new. This goes for all 3 guitars. There was no bass to be had whatsoever. I was prepared for it to be much less than my HD28V but this was completely anemic. The high end was not sparkly just lifeless and dead. The shape of the guitar was pretty good for a 1960. I didn't like the neck profile on this and I found this guitar hard to play. The action was fine it just didn't feel good Nothing in the rosewood or any part of the guitar stood out as a looker. Very plain the rosewood didn't look as good as my HD28V




1984 Limited Edition Adi: Again the strings not the newest but still some life. The first thing about this guitar is what a beauty. The rosewood back had the most beautiful grain I've ever seen. It was sure a beauty. Playability was ok, better than the 1960. The bass again was kind of anemic but better than the 1960. The high end shimmer of this guitar was the one thing that beat my HD28V but the guitar it self was more mellow than my sitka top. I though Adi would have more in the mid range, more bite and stand out with more clarity but it didn't. When I strum chords accenting the high e and b though I could hear a really nice jangly sound. Again not the easiest guitar to play. I don't think I'm too influenced by the big V neck on my HD28V as I also like the low profile on my new OM28 and have no issues with it.




My opinion I wouldn't trade my HD28V for either of these D-28s as far as tone and playability. Obviously if I was offered a trade on the 1960 I'd be stupid not to take it as I could sell it and buy an authentic or something. But other than that they don't touch mine.




1969 D-18: As far as tone this was the best of the 3. It sounded like a D-18, had good clarity and fairly good volume projection. But again I've heard better standards off the wall of a music store. I hate the looks but thats personal preference. Don't like the double blackguard look The shape of the body was pretty good but the neck looked like somebody played it with gravel in the palm of their hands. So pitted and marked up. I don't get how that would happen, where all the dings marks and scratches happen only on the neck. The bridge didn't look original. It looked really new but I'm not an expert in vintage. These are probably the first vintage Martins I've played since 1980 When bluegrass was big here in Canada and just about everyone at the bluegrass clubs had one. Cept me. Couldn't even afford a new one then.




So I'm not sure what to make of this. I really expected to be wowed at least to some degree by these vintage guitars and the limited edition of which very few were made. So is it as much of a crap shoot with Vintages as they say it is with new guitars? Have I just played too many new modern Martins to even deserve to have an opinion? I've been playing for 40 years and have listened all my life to recordings of musicians using top notch guitars. I haven't heard a golden era or authentic but I can't imagine how much better they would sound than these vintage examples.
I talked to a guy this morning off of craigslist that has a 1957 D-18. He's a collector and I could tell he was very passionate about guitars and I would expect that the D-18 he has for sale sounds good. However I just can't justify the 7K he's asking
I contacted another seller of a Bourgeois country boy Adirondack which is basically a version of a D-18 with adi top. He's asking $3,200 and I probably should go give this guitar a go.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

Re: -old strings. Does the seller not realize that new strings are the cheapest thing to do to improve tone?
- Could the sweat from your hands eat through the neck back finish and cause pitting?

That's good the store is able to relocate guitars. Who is the retailer?


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

I should add that a 4th J45 I tried before my J45 purchase was a 60s J45 that, while it could have benefited with new strings, it was still not the guitar I expected it to be tone-wise. It goes to show me that old does not automatically mean better. All manufacturers have their good and bad production days and I suppose always have.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

ed2000 said:


> Re: -old strings. Does the seller not realize that new strings are the cheapest thing to do to improve tone?
> - Could the sweat from your hands eat through the neck back finish and cause pitting?
> 
> That's good the store is able to relocate guitars. Who is the retailer?


Tundra. I talked to him on the phone and he's going to restring them. I told him there is zero chance I'll buy either of the 10k d28's and the d-18 with that rough neck is a deal breaker even if it was priced fairly. But he still wants me to retry them with new strings. Its only a 5 minute walk from my office so I'm game


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Wow, I just can't believe he is so poor of a salesman that he didn't put new strings on to begin with. Dealing with someone with that mentality would be a big turnoff in dealing with him unless the guitar and the price was a real deal.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

How would you feel about buying a guitar with a refinished neck? If damages were caused by honest wear I'd accept it but not if it was hiding abuse. How were the frets and the fretboard on the vintage guitars?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

ed2000 said:


> How would you feel about buying a guitar with a refinished neck? If damages were caused by honest wear I'd accept it but not if it was hiding abuse. How were the frets and the fretboard on the vintage guitars?


Not great. The playability on all 3 was not good. The D-18 being the worst with all that neck abuse. The price on them guitars was outrageous.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

I don't understand why the guitars are in bad playing condition, Eddie has many decades of playing experience and I'm sure he must have tested these vintage Martins. Surely, he must not think well heeled customers have the bucks to lock these guitars away in showcases, unplayed!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

ed2000 said:


> I don't understand why the guitars are in bad playing condition, Eddie has many decades of playing experience and I'm sure he must have tested these vintage Martins. Surely, he must not think well heeled customers have the bucks to lock these guitars away in showcases, unplayed!


He wants me to try again with brand new strings. I told him I would have no interest in the D-18 because of the shape of the back of the neck. The only one I'd have hope for would the 1984 limited edition but no where near the 10K he's asking. He told me the top was adirondack but on the phone today I asked if he was sure and he sort of back pedaled and became uncertain but said he could try and find out. So he's not even really sure what the top is, kind of shakes my confidence in his pricing structure. 
The vintage guitars were surprisingly underwhelming used strings aside. With all the hype on the net towards vintage Martins I was really let down. Maybe I just prefer the sound of modern Martins despite many saying that the Vintage half to be better.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

Who is to say older or vintage plays better...take a look at me, for example.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

There are very few vintage Martins in good shape in Canada-12th fret and Folkway may be your best bet but be prepared to pay.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

Slightly off topic
--------------
I have a problem with the way this business (Tundra) and perhaps others operate when it comes to buying your used gear.(My one experience, my point of view)
Many years ago I had my LP Pro Deluxe advertised online. I received a call from a Tundra rep asking me to bring the LP in. I gave an honest description of the guitar and *I was assured* I could get '*good money'* for it. This convinced me to give them a chance to resell it. At the store I was told it would be hard to sell, was not desirable and was given a lowball offer. All this after being told over the phone they would love to have that guitar in their stock.....felt like bait and switch by a used car salesman.
Two weeks later I completed a private sale at my asking price.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

I have heard a number of fantastic vintage Martins - not surprisingly, none of them are for sale. Unless you get one from an estate, I suspect that most of the good ones are taken.


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## YellowBrick (Mar 7, 2015)

I have heard many vintage Martin guitars sounding great. I also have seen a lot of wrecked ones. They had "some life" in them if I might say : battered finishes, frets gone, neck reset required, splits, cracks... You name them. And they were selling for a good amount of money. I understand the collectors value but most would have required a lot of attention and repair work to make them playable up to today standards.

From what you are telling us I would say the Bourgeois (amazing guitars btw) would be a better purchase, and a better value as well. 

I am not sure with Tundra neither. I never dealt with them but I got in touch when I got my PRS electric and they also left me with a strange feeling. I ended up buying from The Guitar Shop. My 2c.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

I hear ya // why just this morning I threatened to kill my buddy for his 77 D28.. this thing is my current mecca... I have tried several guitars in last 30 days. He came over last night.... still hands down one of the best I have ever heard 



bw66 said:


> I have heard a number of fantastic vintage Martins - not surprisingly, none of them are for sale. Unless you get one from an estate, I suspect that most of the good ones are taken.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

Look beyond the name on the headstock and buy the guitar that makes you want to make music. I see lots of instruments that would be practically worthless if they were any other brand/model/year, but command a high price simply because of the name on the headstock.

I love nice D18s. A buddy of mine owned a 60s model for years, but strangely he almost never played it, playing a plywood topped MIA instead. I always though that it was because he was "saving" his prized possession. When he passed away suddenly last year I thought about approaching his family to see if they would sell it to me. I didn't want a deal, I just wanted a D18 and thought it would be nice to give it a friendly home and something to remind me of our friendship when I played it. Long story short... his family wanted his guitars on stage at his memorial event that I hosted. Perfect, a chance to give the old gal a good play when no one was around as I was setting up. What a POS it turned out to be! I know now why he never took it out.

For the money you are looking to spend you should be able to find a guitar that makes you smile every time you pick it up. It just may not say Martin on the headstock.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Ocean7 said:


> I have heard many vintage Martin guitars sounding great. I also have seen a lot of wrecked ones. They had "some life" in them if I might say : battered finishes, frets gone, neck reset required, splits, cracks... You name them. And they were selling for a good amount of money. I understand the collectors value but most would have required a lot of attention and repair work to make them playable up to today standards.
> 
> From what you are telling us I would say the Bourgeois (amazing guitars btw) would be a better purchase, and a better value as well.
> 
> I am not sure with Tundra neither. I never dealt with them but I got in touch when I got my PRS electric and they also left me with a strange feeling. I ended up buying from The Guitar Shop. My 2c.



I found a great D-18 Authentic at a Mississauga store that I played last Saturday. I liked it a lot but the strings were dead so to judge it critically was a little hard. The price on it is great at about $600 less than other stores
So I was talking to the guy from Tundra and he's going on about how Tundra has the best prices and no one can match him. I told him what I could get the D-18A for and he looked it up on the website. He said he couldn't come close to it. He had initially asked if it was used but he could see by the website it was a brand new Martin. I'll be going back this Saturday to give the D-18A a second look and have arranged for them to restring it with my preference of strings. Then on the Monday I will be checking out a D-18 Golden Era. 
There's also a guy on Kijiji selling a Bourgeois Adirondack Country boy which is Dan Bourgouis version of the D-18 but I haven't decided if I'm going to check it out or not.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

ronmac said:


> Look beyond the name on the headstock and buy the guitar that makes you want to make music. I see lots of instruments that would be practically worthless if they were any other brand/model/year, but command a high price simply because of the name on the headstock.
> 
> I love nice D18s. A buddy of mine owned a 60s model for years, but strangely he almost never played it, playing a plywood topped MIA instead. I always though that it was because he was "saving" his prized possession. When he passed away suddenly last year I thought about approaching his family to see if they would sell it to me. I didn't want a deal, I just wanted a D18 and thought it would be nice to give it a friendly home and something to remind me of our friendship when I played it. Long story short... his family wanted his guitars on stage at his memorial event that I hosted. Perfect, a chance to give the old gal a good play when no one was around as I was setting up. What a POS it turned out to be! I know now why he never took it out.
> 
> For the money you are looking to spend you should be able to find a guitar that makes you smile every time you pick it up. It just may not say Martin on the headstock.


There can be bad sounding or playing examples from any maker. Although I hear the small builders tend to be more consistent. I grew up with the Martin sound and the new ones may or may not be the same (although obviously vintage has the edge of a age) but Martin does have their own sound. When I bought my first D-28 I spent about 3 hours in the music store going back and forth between the 28 and a Taylor 810. The Taylor played effortlessly but I could not get passed the thin sound. As well I've compared Martins against Collings and Santa Cruz and always preferred the tone of the Martin. Although the Collings neck were some of the most comfortable I've ever played. Nothing seems to match the power and bass that I get from a Martin. Ok yeah I'm a Martin fanboy. Of course it does well to go out and try as many as possible till you find the one.


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## YellowBrick (Mar 7, 2015)

I just checked Kijiji for that Bourgeois. Did you see on the first pic there is something strange near the edge of the top (left lower bout) like a big ding, or cigarette burn or something? That said I would love an Bourgeois Country Boy! I really like those guitars. Good luck with the restrung D-18. Let us know how it goes!


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I'm not surprised that a vintage guitar won't play better than a newer one.

The playability of ALL the vintages guitars I've owned or played have been worse than newer ones. This is my experience with some teles, LPs, and strats - not acoustics. Perhaps it's the set-up, strings, year of manufacture. Who knows. I think 'vintage awesome' is a myth in most cases.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

There are vintage guitars that are in amazing condition and play well. Blue dog Guitars in Vancouver have a 1947 D18 that looks like it just came out of a time capsule. I have played older Martin and Gibson instruments that looked every bit like a worn out old pair of shoes, but still played well. of course opposite has also been true.

Searching for a particular instrument can be rewarding or disappointing, depending mostly on the searchers tenacity and patience. There are still some great old gems out there, and as our population ages and a newer generation has a somewhat different value system many will come available for sale. 

Buy the steak, not the sizzle.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Just a random thought but...

In my experience, guys who own vintage guitars rarely own one. If they own several and decide to sell some, which ones do you think they sell?

Personally, I prefer a new-ish guitar over a vintage. If I wanted vintage I would be more likely to go with a reissue.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

adcandour said:


> I'm not surprised that a vintage guitar won't play better than a newer one.
> 
> The playability of ALL the vintages guitars I've owned or played have been worse than newer ones. This is my experience with some teles, LPs, and strats - not acoustics. Perhaps it's the set-up, strings, year of manufacture. Who knows. I think 'vintage awesome' is a myth in most cases.


I'm in agreement with you. A lot of these vintage snobs will try to make you feel bad for owning a standard series Martin (3 - 4K instrument) saying "they're no good vintage only way to go". So far Vintage hasn't impressed me that much. And neither has the more expensive Collings or Santa Cruz that I've tried. I mean those small builders guitars are definitely great but I haven't preferred them compared to the Martins. And theres been a couple Collings and Santa Cruz that I've wanted to like better. I had to agonize over not liking a Collings better than a Martin. The Collings had one of the best feeling necks I've ever played.


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

To me, a vintage acoustic that someone may offer for sale is different than a vintage electric. I can usually use my experience to decide if I can personally get an electric into playable condition. That is something that that I can and will do. I know when to ask for a luthiers' help when it comes to a wood issue.

A vintage acoustic is something that a good luthier (with years of crafting and reworking wood), can turn into a desirable and prized player. I may be able to adjust a neck, some fret work, and maintenance; but I won't get into skilled repairs on a fragile, high dollar, vintage, acoustic. The cost of this kind of work is usually quite high.

When you buy a vintage acoustic, you are really buying aged, cured tone woods, or the best wood that was available 50-80 years ago, or so for the price point at that time. Magic, or mojo should be in there somewhere. I think these kinds of guitars are better when they are played regularly, rather than stored. 

I also think that 'today' guitar technology, and building savy is at an all time high.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I've heard and played a few newer D-18s that put many older ones to shame. The current Martin idea of a D-18 is pretty good. That doesn't mean that some post purchase tweaking isn't required, but a simple personal set-up from a decent tech or luthier should do the job nicely. The D-18 is one of the classic and best sounding dreadnoughts to my ears. Dollar for dollar, a new one is hard to beat.

All that aside, it would be worth your while checking out some other brands of similar guitars, Collings, Santa Cruz, Bourgeios, Larrivee, or some small shop builders. 

Peace, Mooh.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Mooh said:


> I The D-18 is one of the classic and best sounding dreadnoughts to my ears. Dollar for dollar, a new one is hard to beat.
> 
> All that aside, it would be worth your while checking out some other brands of similar guitars, Collings, Santa Cruz, Bourgeios, Larrivee, or some small shop builders.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


Side by each.. D21 and D28 on Monday... I'd Still grab the D28 guess my hearing ain't what it used to be


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## alphasports (Jul 14, 2008)

If you've already got an HD28V not sure why you're looking to dump it for a D18. Different animals but the HD will eat most of them alive. Sold 2 monster Collings last year but kept my HD...no contest.


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## toby2 (Dec 2, 2006)

I had an early 70's D-18 that needed a bunch of work ( neck reset , bridge repair and brace resets ) . The work 
set me back about $500 . The guitar really sounded amazing once it was repaired . I would recommend finding an older instrument and getting it repaired or setup by a top notch repair shop .


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

alphasports said:


> If you've already got an HD28V not sure why you're looking to dump it for a D18. Different animals but the HD will eat most of them alive. Sold 2 monster Collings last year but kept my HD...no contest.



If your referring to me, my HD28V isn't going anywhere. The D-18 Authentic 1939 that I'm going to see this weekend is nothing like my HD28V
HD28V - Sitka top, East Indian Rosewood back and sides, forward shifted x bracing
D-18A 1939 - Adirondack top, Mahogany back and sides rear shifted x bracing
Quite a different guitar.
Those 2 with my OM28 should provide a good palette of Martin tones. Although I'm on the fence as to whether the OM28 will stay long term.
Being a dread player all my life I'm still on the fence. Its a great guitar to carry around the house from room to room, noodling infront of the TV and its currently the one I most play around home.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/archive/201005A33.html



guitarman2 said:


> If your referring to me, my HD28V isn't going anywhere. The D-18 Authentic 1939 that I'm going to see this weekend is nothing like my HD28V
> HD28V - Sitka top, East Indian Rosewood back and sides, forward shifted x bracing
> D-18A 1939 - Adirondack top, Mahogany back and sides rear shifted x bracing
> Quite a different guitar.
> ...


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Well the D-18 Authentic got sold before I was able to get down to see it for the second time. So I've decided I'm going to order a D-28 Authentic 1941 from L&M tomorrow. I figure I'm mostly a D-28 (rosewood) preference. I do want a D-18 eventually but since I missed out on this good deal, I'll bide my time and wait for another to show up at a good discount new or possibly even used.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

Maybe Tundra bought the D-18 Authentic seeing it was a great price!


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

ed2000 said:


> Maybe Tundra bought the D-18 Authentic seeing it was a great price!


In which case it will show up on their site tomorrow at double the price.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> In which case it will show up on their site tomorrow at double the price.


...and with old strings


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