# Octave pedals



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I'm between pedals again, and before I run out and buy the usual Boss OC-3, what's the current wisdom regarding octave pedals? All I need it to do is drop my pitch one octave for the purposes of looping and/or jamming on the fly in the lesson studio and some live applications. I'm not interested in another multi-effects unit as I have one already plus a comprehensive selection of other pedals. Are there other options worth considering? 

Thanks in advance for your advice.

Peace, Mooh.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

First, read the issue of Stompboxology on frequency division here: http://www.moosapotamus.net/IDEAS/stompboxology/stompboxology.html Explains a great deal.

Second, there are few analog octave-down boxes that track flawlessly, simply because the guitar signal is damn inherently unstable. Digital boxes incorporate algorithms to get past that. In some instances, people can come to like the wackiness that comes with so-so tracking. Some folks love the old MXR Blue Box for exactly that reason. In other cases, people just want something that works, but they need to play ball with the box, whatever it is. That means picking where the strings are stiffest (higher up) and the fundamental stronger than everything else. It also means usually turning the guitar tone control down.

Third, people use octave boxes for a number of reasons. One is to inject a bit of weirdness into their tone. Another is to add synth-like thickness. Still another is to sub for another instrument (e.g., bass or baritone guitar). Depending on what you want it for, some pedals will be better and worse.

As the Stompboxology paper indicates, you can either use the guitar signal to *generate* a note one or two octaves below, or you can use the guitar+division circuitry to modify the actual guitar signal and *simulate* a suboctave by essentially gating out the guitar every other cycle. The former has more harmonic content associated with it (so it sounds fuzzier and synthier). The latter has only the harmonic content coming with the guitar signal, so it sounds smoother to most people's ears.

My personal fave is the PAiA Rocktave Divider. PAiA ( http://www.paia.com/ ) was one of the very best places for DIY kits for over 3 decades. Founder John Simonton passed away a few years ago, and it would seem that during the past few years their catalog of guitar effects (pretty much all Craig Anderton designs) has shrunk and been virtually eliminated. There is a project file for the Rocktave at my current site (http://hammer.ampage.org/files/rocktave.pdf) and a different layout available at www.generalguitargadgets.com if you are into rolling your own. The virtues of the Rocktave are that it incorporates companding in a way that provides better tracking across a variety of picking styles and pickup settings, and 95% sputter-free performance. This one uses a generated suboctave, but provides a tone rolloff to smooth it out so it's less fuzzy sounding.

From what I understand, the teeny Danelectro Chili Dog is essentially a Boss OC-2. This design uses the gated-guitar-signal approach for a smoother tone. Behringer makes a clone, too.

The Blue Box is a fun unit, but lacks flexibility unless you're willing to mod it, or make your own. I've done the latter several times, and can verify that the basic BB design can be improved upon.

If you want synthy sound and better tracking performance, you turn to the EHX Microsynth, or the EBS Octabass ( http://www.ebs.bass.se/2007/octabass.htm ).


----------



## Greenbacker (Mar 29, 2007)

I've owned an OC-2, MicroSynth (Older ver.) and an Octave Multiplexer. I found that the Multiplexer tracked the best of this bunch. The MicroSynth has a ton of other fun sounds in it too!

I found better results playing on a neck pickup.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Greenbacker said:


> I've owned an OC-2, MicroSynth (Older ver.) and an Octave Multiplexer. I found that the Multiplexer tracked the best of this bunch. The MicroSynth has a ton of other fun sounds in it too!


Which issue of the Multiplexer? There have been a number of revisions and wholesale changes to the circuit over the years.


> I found better results playing on a neck pickup.


EVERYBODY does!:smilie_flagge17:
What can also help is to stick some compression ahead of the octaver.


----------



## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

I have one of the FoxRox Octron pedals and it does both the octave up and octave down thing very well. It is an analog circuit BTW.

May be a bit of an overkill if you don't use the octave up feature.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

That's a nice pedal. Pearl used to make one like it (octave up and down), but I think those are only presently available as DIY or e-bay items.


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Seriously check out the Danelectro Chili Dog Octaver. It's one of the "mini" series pedals and is every bit as good as the Boss at 1/3 the price.

TG


----------



## Andy (Sep 23, 2007)

Check out the EH Micro POG. It's a little more than the Boss, but it's truly polyphonic and from the demos I've heard, it sounds great -- much better tracking than the Danelectro I used to have, or the Boss that I've played.


----------



## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

I have an EHX Octave Multiplexer and it's much better than the old Boss OC2. Tracks better, sounds more natural too. The sub-bass filter thing is good for getting a fuzzy bass tone and can be switched in and out.
I'd definitely go for one of those or the Octon before a Boss octaver. 
(Or an old MXR Bluebox, but they're also kinda weird as mhammer mentioned. Sound great to me though).
They're all mono though, unless you want to get into digital stuff like the POG.


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Thanks everybody! Very enlightening. I may go window shopping/tire kicking tomorrow, weather permitting. 

Peace, Mooh.


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2009)

I'm going to try and record a clip for you of an mhammer-modified Blue Box. Oh me oh my tis a beautiful pedal...give me a bit...


----------



## NB_Terry (Feb 2, 2006)

traynor_garnet said:


> Seriously check out the Danelectro Chili Dog Octaver. It's one of the "mini" series pedals and is every bit as good as the Boss at 1/3 the price.
> 
> TG


Yes it's a good pedal. You should be able to find one for $30 or less.

For a great cheap octave-up fuzz pedal, grab the Dano French Toast.


----------



## Peter (Mar 25, 2008)

I've got an EHX Micro POG, it tracks great and sounds very very synthey (is that word? it is now!). It's expensive though.


----------



## devil6 (Feb 24, 2006)

DeleriumTrigger said:


> I've got an EHX Micro POG, it tracks great and sounds very very synthey (is that word? it is now!). It's expensive though.


I had the original POG and loved it... and then sold it for some unimaginable reason, i've been sad ever since. And i've heard good things about the micro pog(it's on the extensive list of pedals to buy) But it is rather excessive for just needing an octave down.

I've also heard alot of good things about the Foxrox Octron as well but again that may be more than is needed.

I had a Boss OC-3 and didn't like it... actually i hated it, now I play bass so your experience may differ but I found the tracking to be awful and trying to play a chord just sounded like a boot stepping into manure.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

For the moment (it is being prepared for sale to The EH Man for his collection), I am the owner of something called a Guild Tri-Oct. I may have written about it here before. The Tri-Oct was ostensibly the first polyphonic octave divider ever produced, and is kind of the missing link between guitar pedals and the earliest guitar synthesizers. The semiconductors on-board would peg it as being hatched somewhere around the period where Electro-Harmonix was starting to take off. Better-informed readers will know that there was a bit of "cross-pollination" between Guild, Musitronics, and E-H around the end of the 60's.

The Tri-Oct is essentially six entirely discrete (not a chip to be seen) octave dividers, fed by a proprietary hexaphonic pickup. The sensitivity of each string's input is adjusted via a set of 6 trimpots on the rear of the main unit. The outputs of the 6 octaves are mixed down to mono for signal-blending purposes. The user can adjust the overall level of the mixed octave-down, as well as the level of a fuzz signal (called "treble"), and clean signal. There is no overall bypass footswitch, but there is a floor unit that has a switch for each of the three signals (octave, treble, and normal), so you can introduce or eliminate each type of signal as desired.

The pickup mounts to the surface of the guitar, but since the pickup's footprint is about the size of a P90 soapbar pickup, there are few choices of where to stick the pickup unless you have an instrument with only a neck pickup. Unfortunately, hex pickups work best when situated where the strings wiggle the least - near the bridge - meaning that this puppy was a great idea on paper but highly problematic in the field. I imagine that is why I have been unable to find anything about it anywhere on-line, other than my own persistent queries for info.

If you are able to stick it near a bridge, and pick just so, you actually can get polyphonic fat sounds. But trust me, it ain't no POG. I'll try and post some pictures soon.


----------



## Greenbacker (Mar 29, 2007)

mhammer said:


> Which issue of the Multiplexer? There have been a number of revisions and wholesale changes to the circuit over the years.


Not sure exactly what issue. it was an early reissue from what I understand. You might ask Dev on that because the same one he is talking about is the one I sold him. Great pedal.


----------



## Peter (Mar 25, 2008)

devil6 said:


> I had the original POG and loved it... and then sold it for some unimaginable reason, i've been sad ever since. And i've heard good things about the micro pog(it's on the extensive list of pedals to buy) But it is rather excessive for just needing an octave down.


Ya it's not the most versatile pedal but it can make some amazing sounds.


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I did manage a trip to L&M today but all they had was a shop worn OD-3, so I'm still looking. 

Thanks for all the great advice folks, keep it coming!

Peace, Mooh.


----------



## dolphinstreet (Sep 11, 2006)

I use a cheap Arion MOC-1 and it works pretty good for low octaves. Not perfect but it does the job for single note lines.

MOC-1 video clip here ->http://www.dolphinstreet.com/video_clips/video-44.php


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Looking at the schematic for the Arion MOC and the Boss OC-2, there isn't a heckuva lot of difference in their design. Both use the same means for extracting the fundamental and tracking the note. Both also use the gated-original approach (as opposed to direct synthesis approach) for producing the sub-octave. The DOD FX35 Octoplus also seems to be very similar to both of these, except that it also includes a tone control.


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

dolphinstreet said:


> I use a cheap Arion MOC-1 and it works pretty good for low octaves. Not perfect but it does the job for single note lines.
> 
> MOC-1 video clip here ->http://www.dolphinstreet.com/video_clips/video-44.php


I didn't like the MOC-1, however I've found that Octave pedals are really inconsistent; I've played some really good and really bad Boss OC-2 pedals, so maybe the Arion I had was just a bad one.

My vote still stands for the Dano Chili Dog.

TG


----------



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

iaresee said:


> I'm going to try and record a clip for you of an mhammer-modified Blue Box. Oh me oh my tis a beautiful pedal...give me a bit...


Do tell. What are the mods and how did they change the pedal?

TG


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

From speaking with other guitarists, there seems to be some confusion between the Boss OC-2 and OC-3. I confess that I too don't know the difference, though I suspect the OC-3 is the better unit. 

But what about the Boss PS-5? Does it have similar abilities? Will it drop my pitch down one octave too?

Peace, Mooh.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

traynor_garnet said:


> Do tell. What are the mods and how did they change the pedal? TG


Nothing that glorious or ingenius, I'm afraid, though they certainly add to the sonic options.

1) The stock unit provides a tone two octaves down. It does so by dividing once by 2, and then dividing by 2 a second time. I installed a toggle that taps at each stage of division, giving one OR two octaves down.

2) The stock unit has a cap on the output, just before the volume control, which trims the treble for the whole pedal, though only moderately. I added a variable treble cut on the octave-down side only so that it can be made much mellower. It has no effect on the fuzz side.

3) I may have done something to the envelope follower section to help it handle end-of-note-sputter better, but I'm not certain.

A standard Blue Box is a bit like a very large puppy. It wants to play, and doesn't ever really calm down. Much like a puppy, that can be fun, or it can become exasperating. Having said that, if you own a BB, a coupla easy mods can squeeze more fun out of it....something that Ian seems to be having.:smile:


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Update: L&M had a second hand Boss OC-3 for $75 this morning so I brought it home. Haven't plugged it in yet, but I don't expect any issues. Love those L&M gift cards!

Peace, Mooh.


----------



## z0z0 (Feb 19, 2009)

DeleriumTrigger said:


> I've got an EHX Micro POG, it tracks great and sounds very very synthey.


Is it synthey only when you turn it to the extreme or always too synthey?

I am looking for something with Octave Up capability that sounds natural


----------



## exhausted (Feb 10, 2006)

z0z0 said:


> Is it synthey only when you turn it to the extreme or always too synthey?
> 
> I am looking for something with Octave Up capability that sounds natural


if you're looking at it mostly for the octave up, you might be disappointed as it's not natural sounding at all. totally synthy even on fairly subtle settings. sounds more natural doing the octave down. 

are you looking for an octave fuzz sort of thing?


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The POG (not Micro POG) that I tried was quite natural sounding to my ears. It is essentially a harmonizer tailored specifically to octaves. In the realm of octaving, it is very hard to get more natural-sounding than a harmonizer.

There is a new POG2 coming out from EHX, in the smaller package than the original POG, with more control (including storable presets), at a price between the original and the Micro POG. Looks like a winner.


----------



## exhausted (Feb 10, 2006)

this is a good sample, as always, of the micro pog.

http://www.proguitarshop.com/product.php?ProductID=474&CategoryID=

i quite like it for swells and things but the attack has a "poing" to it when picking.


----------



## Alien8 (Jan 8, 2009)

I'll throw this in there just since it hasn't been covered yet. 

The EHX HOG also does octave down, 2 octaves down, and has a wammy ability that will take you into 3 octaves down, just in case you wanted to sub octave your violin I suppose. Going further it does many octaves up as well.

Of course this is overkill if you just want one octave down. I didn't, and it is nothing near a one trick pony. It also has a filter section and a swell / decay effect, which can really fatten up the bottom end when playing octave down.

I do agree with Mark that they are quite natural sounding, but they still do sound like you are using an effect - especially in the higher octaves. When you blend the natural tone of the guitar back in it really can 'mask' some of the side effects.


----------



## Buzz (May 15, 2008)

mhammer said:


> For the moment (it is being prepared for sale to The EH Man for his collection), I am the owner of something called a Guild Tri-Oct. I may have written about it here before. The Tri-Oct was ostensibly the first polyphonic octave divider ever produced, and is kind of the missing link between guitar pedals and the earliest guitar synthesizers. The semiconductors on-board would peg it as being hatched somewhere around the period where Electro-Harmonix was starting to take off. Better-informed readers will know that there was a bit of "cross-pollination" between Guild, Musitronics, and E-H around the end of the 60's.
> 
> The Tri-Oct is essentially six entirely discrete (not a chip to be seen) octave dividers, fed by a proprietary hexaphonic pickup. The sensitivity of each string's input is adjusted via a set of 6 trimpots on the rear of the main unit. The outputs of the 6 octaves are mixed down to mono for signal-blending purposes. The user can adjust the overall level of the mixed octave-down, as well as the level of a fuzz signal (called "treble"), and clean signal. There is no overall bypass footswitch, but there is a floor unit that has a switch for each of the three signals (octave, treble, and normal), so you can introduce or eliminate each type of signal as desired.
> 
> ...


Mhammer, do you have some pictures and sound clips of this wild thing? I like the old stuff. I hope EHman does an article on it.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I have some pictures, but need to edit them for posting. I'm waiting for the canadian dollar to drop in value so I can send it to Ron "The EH Man" and still make a couple of bucks. We agreed on a price several years ago, and I'm sticking to it, and to the promise to sell it to him and him alone. Trouble is, that whenever I get ready to ship it, the stupid dollar goes up, and when it goes down, I forget to ship. Doh!


----------

