# Soundperson language



## Mooh

Inspired by previous threads and digressions, I ask you, what does a struggling performer tell the sound folks in order to get good sound?

Specific instructions? Generalities? 

What do soundpeople want to hear? How do they want the issues described? What words work best?

I've been playing in front of people for 40 years and I still struggle a little to describe, on the fly, what I or the band needs.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Guest

Mix 12, ground zero, with the melody guitars up .3, bass up .4, kick down .5, overheads up .4, less gate on the snare and 3db added at 10k on the Pultecs to the rhythm guitars.

We're rolling.​
I say it every time and for some reason no soundman has ever made it happen. :smile:


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## Mooh

Haha...My point exactly. What *can* we say that makes sense to them?

Peace, Mooh.


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## wayne

In an ideal world, "pay attention" should do it.

Then again, in an ideal world, it wouldn't be necessary.

With one particular soundman locally, I have asked on several occasions that he surrender his Blackberry to me until after the performance but so far, no dice!

W


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## kw_guitarguy

Mooh said:


> Haha...My point exactly. What *can* we say that makes sense to them?
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


Over the 12 years that I have done mixing in live church environments, I want to know what you want in your monitor, and I will let you know what I want in the house 

For your own monitor mix, the sound guy should give you what you want unless it interferes with the house sound. Depending on the skill level of your sound guy, you may need to be very general "make me louder", or you can get specific like Ian does  However, I have worked with sound guys that would argue with specifics like that as they would feel that they know better.

I try and give the instr. and vocals what they need to perform well, and I do my best to balance with what I need in the house...

My $0.2

~Andrew


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## Guest

kw_guitarguy said:


> I want to know what you want in your monitor, and I will let you know what I want in the house


This is exactly how I talk to sound guys -- I don't ever try and tell them what the house mix should sound like. I let them know what I want to hear, hope they can give it to me, and mention that do I step on a boost for solos (so they don't need to ride faders to push me out front). And I try very, very, very hard to never touch my amp's volume after sound check without letting them know first.



> or you can get specific like Ian does  However, I have worked with sound guys that would argue with specifics like that as they would feel that they know better.


Hehe. That was a joke.  I pulled that from the intro to Vai's Greasy Kid's Stuff off Passion and Warefare. Whenever I think about giving mix instructions that vocal intro always pops into my head.


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## kw_guitarguy

Guys like me, like guys like you! 

I have had to argue with guitarists before about touching their volumes etc..."well can't you just keep adjusting me?" umm NO!!! haha

~Andrew


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## Guest

kw_guitarguy said:


> Guys like me, like guys like you!


There's a reason me and my old band (http://www.theapolloeffect.com/) always got invited back to choice venues (check the number of times they've played The Hard Rock at Dundas Square -- for relative unknowns it's _very_ high): we always made a point of getting to know the staff names, listening to and working with the soundman, and treating them like the team we all were. It works 100% of the time. I've encountered some of the crustiest old MoFos behind the boards and after a handshake, a name exchange and a beer: you're all set.

We can all get along. Honest.


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## Milkman

I want to know what is to be mixed in each monitor mix, who does most of the lead vocals, who take most of the solos and if there are any special requests or requirements I'm happy to hear them. 

Typically if an act needs anything more specific than that they provide a technical rider in advance of the show.


It doesn't need to be complicated and it shouldn't be difficult to get a good sound with a little mutual respect and positive attitude.


As for levels "changing" during the set, I don't sweat that too much. I watch the meters very closely on all strips. It's not a big deal to adjust the input gain on a stip if someone really feels the need to tweak their volume a little.


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## hollowbody

I have a huge amount of respect for sound dudes. At the end of the day, they are responsible for how I sound to the audience. One of the last shows I played was pretty abysmal. I thought the band was sloppy and uninspired - it was one of those off nights. But thanks to the sound tech, who did a great job with the in-house mix, we actually got compliments about how good we sounded.

The way I figure it is: it's their gear and their venue. They're not going to intentionally make us sound assy. Let them do their job as best they can and I'll do my best to stay the heck out of the way.


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## Milkman

iaresee said:


> There's a reason me and my old band (http://www.theapolloeffect.com/) always got invited back to choice venues (check the number of times they've played The Hard Rock at Dundas Square -- for relative unknowns it's _very_ high): we always made a point of getting to know the staff names, listening to and working with the soundman, and treating them like the team we all were. It works 100% of the time. I've encountered some of the crustiest old MoFos behind the boards and after a handshake, a name exchange and a beer: you're all set.
> 
> We can all get along. Honest.



Sage words indeed.

Being professional and courteous is job #1 for both bands and technical guys and if you follow Jarese's suggestions above you'll do well.


I'm pretty serious when I'm on the job, but give me a little respect and I'll work my a$$ off to make you sound good.


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## shoretyus

Milkman said:


> I don't sweat that too much. I watch the meters very closely on all strips. It's not a big deal to adjust the input gain on a stip if someone really feels the need to tweak their volume a little.


I take it your Blackfurry is in the off position if your watching meters 9kkhhd


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## Milkman

shoretyus said:


> I take it your Blackfurry is in the off position if your watching meters 9kkhhd



It's in my briefcase. I would never take a call or read a text message during a set. 

No way. 

When I'm behind the board I give my full attention to the mix.


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## Mooh

Milkman said:


> It's in my briefcase. I would never take a call or read a text message during a set.
> 
> No way.
> 
> When I'm behind the board I give my full attention to the mix.


Man, do I ever wish *that* was always the case! Some of my "acoustic" gigs are such that I have to switch song by song from 6 to 12 to baritone to bouzouki to keys, and it's maddening to look for the soundfolk and keep one's composure. Usually I just try to compensate if the board is vacant...I hate to cause a scene...but I've witnessed performers publicly berate the soundstaff, and that's absolutely not necessary.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Jim DaddyO

I've been in a lot af bars where the mix was crap. Do those sound guys ever get their nose out of joint when you tell them something like "Hey, I can hardly hear the lead guitar" or similar.


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## kw_guitarguy

I don't tend to listen to the audience, mainly because the audiences I have experienced are so varied...one person can say I can't hear X, then the person right beside them says to turn X down..so I mix it for me and what I think sounds best (also mixing so it sounds good for the performers as well)

However, if I knew someone with the right knowledge was in the audience and they pointed out something I missed, then I would certainly entertain the suggestion  (I just hope I never run sound with Milkman in the audience, I would have to be dead on!! haha)

~Andrew


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## Milkman

Mooh said:


> Man, do I ever wish *that* was always the case! Some of my "acoustic" gigs are such that I have to switch song by song from 6 to 12 to baritone to bouzouki to keys, and it's maddening to look for the soundfolk and keep one's composure. Usually I just try to compensate if the board is vacant...I hate to cause a scene...but I've witnessed performers publicly berate the soundstaff, and that's absolutely not necessary.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.



...if the board is vacant....


The only event I ever do where the boards are occasionally vacant is a county fair where I'm running five or six stages at once. In that case I sound check each stage and the board remains on stage. I make sure the performers know exactly how to make adjustments. Then I patrol the grounds and stop at every stage on an ongoing basis all day. I use a radio to stay in communication and if there's any trouble I come a'runnin.

That's not a typical event though. 

For a normal show, if there's anyone on stage, either speaking or performing, I'm behind the board, period.


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## david henman

...i like the politically sensitive "soundperson" smile!

many years ago i worked at a cheap electronics store across from sam the record man in downtown toronto. one day a rather feminist lady walked up to the counter and and asked if i could show her my sony walkpersons.

david henperson

(just slightly off topic...)


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## Mooh

david henman said:


> ...i like the politically sensitive "soundperson" smile!
> 
> many years ago i worked at a cheap electronics store across from sam the record man in downtown toronto. one day a rather feminist lady walked up to the counter and and asked if i could show her my sony walkpersons.
> 
> david henperson
> 
> (just slightly off topic...)


That's a hoot! 

Soundfolk, soundstaff...maybe I need to get away from the folk festival influence!

Peace, Mooh.


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## Milkman

david henman said:


> ...i like the politically sensitive "soundperson" smile!
> 
> many years ago i worked at a cheap electronics store across from sam the record man in downtown toronto. one day a rather feminist lady walked up to the counter and and asked if i could show her my sony walkpersons.
> 
> david henperson
> 
> (just slightly off topic...)



Perfect.:smile:


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## kw_guitarguy

I should tag along to one of your shows Milkman...would be interesting to work with ya!!


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## keefsdad

iaresee said:


> There's a reason me and my old band (http://www.theapolloeffect.com/) always got invited back to choice venues (check the number of times they've played The Hard Rock at Dundas Square -- for relative unknowns it's _very_ high): we always made a point of getting to know the staff names, listening to and working with the soundman, and treating them like the team we all were. It works 100% of the time. I've encountered some of the crustiest old MoFos behind the boards and after a handshake, a name exchange and a beer: you're all set.
> 
> We can all get along. Honest.


I did a gig at a large venue on Queen West a couple of years ago. The sound guy looked like a Hells Angel who had been on a 3 week meth binge. Virtually no teeth. He did a fantastic job, was polite and professional, and ended up giving me a guitar stand and speaker cord at the end of the night. He was the only good thing about the gig, actually.


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## bagpipe

keefsdad said:


> I did a gig at a large venue on Queen West a couple of years ago. The sound guy looked like a Hells Angel who had been on a 3 week meth binge. Virtually no teeth. He did a fantastic job


Was it Milkman >? kkjuw


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## ronmac

bagpipe said:


> Was it Milkman >? kkjuw


hwopv OUCH!


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## Milkman

kw_guitarguy said:


> I should tag along to one of your shows Milkman...would be interesting to work with ya!!


You would be most welcome. I'm always happy to exchange information and approaches.


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## Milkman

bagpipe said:


> Was it Milkman >? kkjuw


I suppose I do look a bit bikerish if I show my tatts, but I'm able to make the transition to a suit and tie for my day job (no tatts that can't be covered).



still have quite a few teeth too, LOL.


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## greco

kw_guitarguy said:


> I should tag along to one of your shows Milkman...would be interesting to work with ya!!


*Milkman and kw_guitarguy* ....I would also enjoy the opportunity to observe and (try to) understand what is involved in being a "soundperson". This type of work has always been of interest to me.

Problem is, I'd likely have to pay you to answer all my dumb questions....it could get very expensive...LOL

Dave


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## keefsdad

Milkman said:


> I suppose I do look a bit bikerish if I show my tatts, but I'm able to make the transition to a suit and tie for my day job (no tatts that can't be covered).
> 
> 
> 
> still have quite a few teeth too, LOL.


Wasn't you, then:smile:


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## mhammer

I suppose the first thing to say is "*HEY!!!* She already HAS a boyfriend/girlfriend, so keep your mind on your work."

Jocularity aside, there is often a discrepancy between what the soundperson is hearing from their location, what the musician themselves is hearing, and what the crowd is hearing. One of the many reasons why I try to seat myself as close to the soundboard as possible on those rare occasions when I go to see live music.

I find a lot of musicians are unfamiliar with EQ-ing, and so are unable to make recommendations about a little more at freq X or a little less at freq Y. It's a bit like cooks being able to say "It needs more tarragon". Worth getting to know what frequency bands are responsible for what tonal qualities.

Sometimes I think it pays to stick a mic on the stage and another in the crowd, just to monitor what it is that others are hearing. At the very least, walk around and get some perspective. This is certainly one of the problems with festival sound. The wavelength of those big subwoofer bins is so long that the folks at the sounddesk can't hear them, but the neighbours two blocks away sure can! In those instances, no amount of advice from the musician to the soundman is able to rectify the situation, because they can't hear it either.


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## lbrown1

I'm performing in a show next Friday eve (charitable gig - Relay For Life Oshawa Civic Fields) - this will be the first time in my so far limited history of live performing where I'll have a pro sound guy .......this thread has been very helpful - many of the things and habits that I (and the rest of my band) tend to exhibit (i.e. paying around with our volumes and boosts etc) might need to be quelled for this event.

thanks folks.


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## Milkman

mhammer said:


> I suppose the first thing to say is "*HEY!!!* She already HAS a boyfriend/girlfriend, so keep your mind on your work."
> 
> Jocularity aside, there is often a discrepancy between what the soundperson is hearing from their location, what the musician themselves is hearing, and what the crowd is hearing. One of the many reasons why I try to seat myself as close to the soundboard as possible on those rare occasions when I go to see live music.
> 
> I find a lot of musicians are unfamiliar with EQ-ing, and so are unable to make recommendations about a little more at freq X or a little less at freq Y. It's a bit like cooks being able to say "It needs more tarragon". Worth getting to know what frequency bands are responsible for what tonal qualities.
> 
> Sometimes I think it pays to stick a mic on the stage and another in the crowd, just to monitor what it is that others are hearing. At the very least, walk around and get some perspective. This is certainly one of the problems with festival sound. The wavelength of those big subwoofer bins is so long that the folks at the sounddesk can't hear them, but the neighbours two blocks away sure can! In those instances, no amount of advice from the musician to the soundman is able to rectify the situation, because they can't hear it either.



When working in an unfamiliar room, I always walk around the room during sound check and sit down in a few chairs to assess the differences and find the nodes.

It's really not possible to make it sound the same in all areas of the room, but you can compensate to find a reasonable balance.


I know that obviously it's a LOT louder ten feet from the stage than it is at the board so I try to take that into consideration when I'm mixing.


Add a few hundred bodies......everything changes again.


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## kw_guitarguy

Exactly....in my current church, the first 5 rows, sound drastically different from the last five!

I have always taken Milk's approach as well during sound check to see where the holes etc... may be, has saved my butt a few times!!

~Andrew


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## Milkman

kw_guitarguy said:


> Exactly....in my current church, the first 5 rows, sound drastically different from the last five!
> 
> I have always taken Milk's approach as well during sound check to see where the holes etc... may be, has saved my butt a few times!!
> 
> ~Andrew


I had an idea that I thought would be neat for a REALLY high end concert club.

It would be cool to have a couple of powered satellite speakers and a small sub at each table with a level control. 


With good isolation at the stage, folks could set the volume to their own taste.


Of course, it would be cost prohibitive, but interesting.


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## kw_guitarguy

I like the idea...as you say, very pricey, but easy for the sound guy!!

~Andrew


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## Milkman

kw_guitarguy said:


> I like the idea...as you say, very pricey, but easy for the sound guy!!
> 
> ~Andrew


You would still have to mix, but nobody could really bitch that it was too loud or not loud enough.

Sort of like a drive in movie without the car




and the movie


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## Milkman

And here I go again


Back to back one nighters this weelend. Tonight I'm doing a concert called Hope Rocks Paris, at the Paris (Syl Aps) Arena. 12 bands.

Tomorrow night it's a CD release event in Dundas for a band called Top Dead Center (look em up on Youtube).

The trailer is hitched up and I'm ready to go. Should be a great weekend.


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## kw_guitarguy

Sounds great Milkman...have fun!!!

~Andrew


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## Milkman

kw_guitarguy said:


> Sounds great Milkman...have fun!!!
> 
> ~Andrew


It was a fantastic weekend.

Top Dead Centre was fantastic. Great band and treated me with much respect and courtesy. Lots of aches and pains today though.:rockon2:


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