# Nitro...



## SUBnet192 (Mar 8, 2009)

Local luthier offered to complete my build and do the finish on it, with nitrocellulose... What do you guys think of that vs poly or whatever else they use? I was going to order everything pre-finished from USA Custom Guitars and they don't use nitro but I'd rather my $$ stays in Canada 

He says the nitro doesn't smother the tone like the other stuff does...

Marc


----------



## kazzelectro (Oct 25, 2007)

Hey Marc
I am a big fan of Nitro vs Poly. Despite Nitro taking much longer to dry and being rather toxic to apply...IMO it does not inhibit the sound of tonewoods like poly plastic finishes do. Poly finishes is like a plastic coating lamination that I feel does not allow the guitar to shine and is usually found on cheaper guitars.


----------



## SUBnet192 (Mar 8, 2009)

kazzelectro said:


> Hey Marc
> I am a big fan of Nitro vs Poly. Despite Nitro taking much longer to dry and being rather toxic to apply...IMO it does not inhibit the sound of tonewoods like poly plastic finishes do. Poly finishes is like a plastic coating lamination that I feel does not allow the guitar to shine and is usually found on cheaper guitars.


That's what he told me as well... It's just that it's easy for someone to say "my way is better" when you are selling something 

What about the crackling/peeling of nitro? How "bad" is it? years before it does or...

Any downsides to using nitro?

Marc


----------



## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

nitro is a really easy finish to apply- easier than poly, and in my experience, faster drying and much more forgiving. thing about poly is, its easy to spray on a good thick coat, and its easier to buff out afterwards- much more geared towards mass production at a cost effective level- nitro is a much better finish from an aesthetic point of view, and it feels better. your guitar might sound better acoustically, but i dont buy into the theory that finish affects an electric guitars sound in any discernable way. but given a choice, ill use nitro or oil before any poly- its easier, it feels better, and it wears better from my point of view.
downsides- not as durable as poly- itll wear with use, while a poly guitar will look new forever-


----------



## SUBnet192 (Mar 8, 2009)

fraser said:


> nitro is a really easy finish to apply- easier than poly, and in my experience, faster drying and much more forgiving. thing about poly is, its easy to spray on a good thick coat, and its easier to buff out afterwards- much more geared towards mass production at a cost effective level- nitro is a much better finish from an aesthetic point of view, and it feels better. your guitar might sound better acoustically, but i dont buy into the theory that finish affects an electric guitars sound in any discernable way. but given a choice, ill use nitro or oil before any poly- its easier, it feels better, and it wears better from my point of view.
> downsides- not as durable as poly- itll wear with use, while a poly guitar will look new forever-


Thanks for the input!


----------



## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

Any finish applied in a thin coat will behave similarly.

Most people "hate" ployester due to the fact on cheaper guitars it is applied in a heavy, thick coat in order to make up for poor prep (sanding, filling etc) and acts like body filler on a car.

I really dont think that anyone can convince me that nitrocellulose sounds better or lets the wood "breathe" better (thats a crock) than many other far superior wood finishes available today.

For instance, even a good quality catalyzed lacquer will look & feel like traditional NC but has far greater durability (from wear and tear and also from water/alcohol damage) and resistance to cold checking, etc.

Not too many small builders/finishers are going to use anything that requires exotic application equipment, special curing ovens or lights, etc due to the cost. 

NC lacquer, as far as sprayed on finishes go are still the most simple finish to apply, work with and clean up - and are no more toxic than a spray bomb of tremclad. Lots of myths about lacquer still abound... its a very forgiving finish, requires no mixing, requires nothing special in bewteen coats as it burns in every layer to another, etc. It does require an exceptionally long dry time and that is a PITA. Also, much less resistance to damage than many other finishes, but it is easier to repair in the future as well.

I think many small luthiers use NC, say its due to "this and that" but really because it is cheap and easy to apply. But it sounds more convincing if you say its becuase it allows tyhe wood to breathe, and resonate, etc...

Its the THICKNESS of the finish, not the type of finish that affects the tone.

AJC


----------



## SUBnet192 (Mar 8, 2009)

I spoke to Tommy at USA Custom Guitars and they use a poly finish on the guitars they sell. He told me that he himself prefers nitro (which they don't sell). That's a pretty bad selling point for them, but a really honest opinion 

I decided to follow my luthier's suggestion and he'll do it with nitrocellulose.

Thanks for your input.

Marc


----------



## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

I prefer the look and feel of nitro. I like the way it wears as well.

I think there is a tendency to use poly as a catch all for poor work and corner cutting and that is probably where most of the bad rep comes from.


----------



## kazzelectro (Oct 25, 2007)

All I can add about Poly vs Nitro finishes is that I've owned a played a whole lot of guitars and I can pretty much tell just by picking up a guitar whether it's poly or nitro. Poly to feels like your guitar has been laminated in a shiny plastic coating..and imo looks cheaper and I would go so far as to claim that it adversely affects the sound. I do believe the claim that nitro sounds better...you can even see the pores and the wood grain coming through the finish.
Another fact from a collectibility point of view...any vintage guitar with a nitro finish is preferred to poly. I suppose I just have a pretty nasty bias against poly finishes..especially on high end guitars.


----------



## martyb1 (Aug 5, 2007)

Well I will add my two cents.I will also say I like a lacquer finish better than poly.To say there is a difference in sound I cant really say.I am sure with the thick poly finishes on a lot of guitars now days it has to do something to the tone,however saying that..........
Consider the sequence of events leading to the finish.Lets take an ash body for example.Now I know some people will spray right on to the ash but the vast majority do not.What is the first thing you do,grain FILL,hmmm filling the pores of the wood,usually at least two coats on a ash body with sanding in between.If done correctly all that is filled is the grain.Now what is the next step,sanding SEALER.This is to seal the wood and FILL any nicks,voids etc in the wood to give you a nice smooth surface to apply your topcoat.
I am sure you can see what I am getting at.The wood is pretty much sealed before any topcoat gets applied.Now you apply your top coat.Other than the fact that most poly finishes are much thicker than a lacquer finish,I really cant see where it would make a lot of difference to the sound.One reason poly finishes are so thick is like stated above,they are used to cover a poorly prepped surface.Because poly does not burn in, it takes many more coats to get it to where it can be buffed without going through the final coat
Not sure if it has been mentioned that the biggest difference between poly and lacquer is the burn in characteristic.A guitar with 10 coats of poly on it has 10 coats.A guitar with 10 coats of lacquer has 1 coat thus making repairs much easier and buffing easier too because you do not have to worry about buffing through the final coat and getting witness lines.
There have been great improvements in the new water based lacquers and that is what I use pretty much use for everything now.It has the look,burn in and almost the same feel as real nitro.It is much safer and easier to clean up and is,I think a bit more durable than nitrh and it cures totally in 72hrs,unlike nitro,which some say takes years


----------



## zeebee (Nov 2, 2008)

I have a nitro Santa Cruz. Wnen I get a chip I pull out a can of lacquer, a fine Artist brush and simply drop fill the nitro over the course of a few days. After letting it cure I sand, buff and its like new. Cant do that easily with Poly based finishes.


----------



## Lowtones (Mar 21, 2006)

I also will add my thoughts on the matter. I use both poly and lacquer. I tend to agree with a couple of the others that I don't think it makes much difference when applied properly. Other than personal preference. I prep guitars the same regardless of which finish I use, grain filler, sanding sealer and then the clear coat. Either a coat of lacquer or Poly as thin as a piece of computer paper can look 1/2 " thick if you finish it properly and I don't think one effects the tone or resonance more than the other if applied in the same thickness. That being said, Ive seen some cheaper guitars were the coating is rediculously thick. They almost looked like they were dipped (several times). I do believe that would have an effect on the sound. The big advantage of Poly to me is, usually only one coat required, although I have wet sanded through it with 2000grit on far too many occasions and no long wait times for wet sanding and buffing. Just my $.02


----------



## Fajah (Jun 28, 2006)

*More Questions*

Informative discussion. Whether you prefer to use lacquer, poly, or nitro, are you guys talking about both body and necks? Would you finish a neck differently then the body on the same guitar? Do you prefer one type of finish specifically for necks and one for bodies?


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Fajah said:


> Informative discussion. Whether you prefer to use lacquer, poly, or nitro, are you guys talking about both body and necks? Would you finish a neck differently then the body on the same guitar? Do you prefer one type of finish specifically for necks and one for bodies?



Not me .. I'm too lazy and that would require cleaning the gun and changing material.


----------



## SUBnet192 (Mar 8, 2009)

Fajah said:


> Informative discussion. Whether you prefer to use lacquer, poly, or nitro, are you guys talking about both body and necks? Would you finish a neck differently then the body on the same guitar? Do you prefer one type of finish specifically for necks and one for bodies?


Our EBMM Petrucci has a poly body, oiled neck and poly headstock. It looks really sharp and plays like a charm. That's more than likely what I'm going for on our custom build, except with nitro instead of poly.

When you guys are talking lacquer, I thought you meant nitro was a lacquer? Or is that a 3rd option?

Marc


----------



## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

SUBnet192 said:


> When you guys are talking lacquer, I thought you meant nitro was a lacquer? Or is that a 3rd option?
> 
> Marc


Yes ... generally instrument lacquer like 
http://www.mohawk-finishing.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=223

But I use this for work and get it easily and have it around. 


http://www.mlcampbell.com/pages/starpage.asp?star=MAG


----------



## Lowtones (Mar 21, 2006)

Fajah said:


> Informative discussion. Whether you prefer to use lacquer, poly, or nitro, are you guys talking about both body and necks? Would you finish a neck differently then the body on the same guitar? Do you prefer one type of finish specifically for necks and one for bodies?


I really like using tung oil on the neck. Very easy to apply and a great feel.


----------

