# Need advice buying car



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I'm one of those that usually like to buy a brand new car and drive it to the ground. The time has now come for my 2007 Chev Uplander. Even though its only got 270,000 km on it theres too much that needs to be done to make it worth it. Especially since the engine is burning lots of oil.
Right now I'm looking at either the Toyota Rav4 or Honda crv.
Just like to know if there are any other vehicles out there in this category I should be looking at. I'd like a small suv\crossover type. I'm leaning strong towards the Rav4 but would consider a vehicle that has a V6 option.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm biased as my company supplies the CRV among others, but my sister in law has a new CRV and loves it. I've had good luck with Honda and Nissan drive trains.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> I'm biased as my company supplies the CRV among others, but my sister in law has a new CRV and loves it. I've had good luck with Honda and Nissan drive trains.



I was almost all set on a Nissan Rogue but my mechanic warned me about their belt drive transmissions so I did some reading up and yes they've had lots of problems and settled a lawsuit.


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## ThatGingerMojo (Jul 30, 2014)

I am biased as my company also makes all the suspension components for the CRV, and the Rav4. I do know that when it comes to quality the CRV is unchallenged in its class. By far the best V6 SUV you can buy. I would recommend this over the Rav4 any day. As for Nissan and anything GM, they will not compare to the CRV. Just my recommendation, do your own research of course.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> I was almost all set on a Nissan Rogue but my mechanic warned me about their belt drive transmissions so I did some reading up and yes they've had lots of problems and settled a lawsuit.


We've had three Nissan's with CVTs. We swear by them. Amazing mileage, and very direct and instant power. We've had no issues.

We only keep them for the term of the lease and thn flip them.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Edmunds is one of the best places for auto reviews.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I have the benefit of driving a lot of rentals. I don't specify the make, just the class. I get in whatever is in the spot with my name on it.

That's a good way to bench mark without preconceived notions of what you like and dislike.

There are only a couple of cars I will lflatly decline if they are assigned to me, for safety reasons.

The CRV is a great little truck.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I'm biased, cause my dad oversees the design of a lot of ford transmission cases. That, and the high ups come over for dinner a lot and would piss on me if I drove anything else.


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## DrHook (Oct 28, 2013)

Although discontinued in 2013, a Mitsubishi Endeavor with low low kms might be the ticket especially with a 10yr power train warranty.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Milkman said:


> We've had three Nissan's with CVTs. We swear by them. Amazing mileage, and very direct and instant power. We've had no issues.
> 
> We only keep them for the term of the lease and thn flip them.


I'm not saying this to be a smart ass, but a 2 or 3 year lease cannot give you an indication of how a vehicle will last for the duration the OP will be using it as the thing is still nearly new at the end of your term (Compared to those of us who drive them to 300k, ten + years etc.)


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

We deliberated between the Venza V6 and the Rav V6, and chose the Venza. Same drivetrain I believe with the 6 speed auto and am glad we did. The engine is from their Tacoma truck line and has GOBS of power if you need it to tow like we did. Not that impressed with some of the interior fitup and layout in the Venza however. Snow tires are also NOT cheap due to size


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Scotty said:


> We deliberated between the Venza V6 and the Rav V6, and chose the Venza. Same drivetrain I believe with the 6 speed auto and am glad we did. The engine is from their Tacoma truck line and has GOBS of power if you need it to tow like we did. Not that impressed with some of the interior fitup and layout in the Venza however. Snow tires are also NOT cheap due to size



I had a Toyota Rav4 out tonight for a test drive. It seemed ok. I'd probably go with the fully loaded Limited model. But maybe I should take the CRV out now and give it a look.
The only thing I don't like about the Rav4 is there isn't a V6 option. I don't think there is on the CRV's either.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

I'm not comparing to Honda or Toyota - I haven't driven or read up on either. But I had a company vehicle 2011 Chev Equinox that, though it was underpowered, was otherwise trouble free for about 3.5 years and 120K. I just got a 2015 as a replacement, and my first impressions are that it is worlds better - almost everything I disliked about the 2011 is better on the 2015, so somebody somewhere was paying attention.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

guitarman2 said:


> I had a Toyota Rav4 out tonight for a test drive. It seemed ok. I'd probably go with the fully loaded Limited model. But maybe I should take the CRV out now and give it a look.
> The only thing I don't like about the Rav4 is there isn't a V6 option. I don't think there is on the CRV's either.


Correct, new Rav's are I4 only now as of this year and CRV never had a V6 (to my knowledge). The Rav with the V6 is like a scalded cat when you step on it


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

Love my 4runner, 285 000km and counting. It's starting to rust on the body a bit but the engine is still going strong. Solid vehicle even after 14 years on the road. Toyota's have a great 4 wheel drive system as well, perfect for wintermageddon.

Bottom line for whatever you choose, in our climate 4 wheel or all wheel drive makes the world of difference. My mom loves her Subaru's, great all wheel drive system for Northern Ont. where she is. I think I'd like to get a Tacoma when my 4runner dies.... might be a while still though.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

I'm an Auto Tech during the day (licensed and everything LOL)

Honda's: EVERY Honda starts to burn oil around the 150-200K mark. Just look for the puff of blue from the exhaust when starting or when pressing the gas down.

Toyota: Never met one that didn't leak oil. And rotten Exhaust. 

Chevy: Can't keep suspensions in them

Ford: That ECOBOOST is crap. Double turbo chargers do not give the same power and towing capacity of a V8. There's gonna be a whole heap of oil consuming engines from worn turbo shaft seals in the very near future, If it hasn't started already. When it comes to Pickup trucks......There ain't no replacement, For displacement.
5.4L spark plugs: That'll shock the hell out of you when you have to extract all the broken ones from the cylinder head.

Dodge/Chrysler: Can't build a transmission to save their life. I've lost count of the tranny's I've pulled and sent to be rebuilt. (Unless it's a manual - pretty damn good manual tranny's) 300 - Front end problems o plenty. Always seem to be rattling or wearing out outer tie rod ends.



Jeep: Pretty damn nice. Get one with a Hemi if you're doing the SUV thing. However the first Gen Liberty's are pretty nice little trucks. THe latest Liberty's are actually dodge nitro's. They just switched names on the truck.

Nissan - Lower intake leaks, timing belts, Catalytic Converter problems, CVT problems


Most problems with vehicles are universal, Tune up issues, brakes, belts etc.

Vehicles are pretty damn good compared to when I started in the trade. For the most part, what I tell customers is simply this. 
Find one you like the looks of, can sit in comfortably, and preferably chose domestic, Otherwise you'll get sticker shock on some of the prices on parts. Imports are always more.


In case you're wondering. I'm currently driving a 97 caravan


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Scotty said:


> I'm not saying this to be a smart ass, but a 2 or 3 year lease cannot give you an indication of how a vehicle will last for the duration the OP will be using it as the thing is still nearly new at the end of your term (Compared to those of us who drive them to 300k, ten + years etc.)


True enough, but generally anything major that is going to fail will do so within the first 10,000km.

- - - Updated - - -



Moosehead said:


> Love my 4runner, 285 000km and counting. It's starting to rust on the body a bit but the engine is still going strong. Solid vehicle even after 14 years on the road. Toyota's have a great 4 wheel drive system as well, perfect for wintermageddon.
> 
> Bottom line for whatever you choose, in our climate 4 wheel or all wheel drive makes the world of difference. My mom loves her Subaru's, great all wheel drive system for Northern Ont. where she is. I think I'd like to get a Tacoma when my 4runner dies.... might be a while still though.


That's a matter of opinion. I wouldn't own a 4WD unless I lived up North or out West or East. In Southern Ontario a car is better IMO and winter tires are good but not necessary.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

guitarman2 said:


> I'm one of those that usually like to buy a brand new car and drive it to the ground. The time has now come for my 2007 Chev Uplander. Even though its only got 270,000 km on it theres too much that needs to be done to make it worth it. Especially since the engine is burning lots of oil.
> Right now I'm looking at either the Toyota Rav4 or Honda crv.
> Just like to know if there are any other vehicles out there in this category I should be looking at. I'd like a small suv\crossover type. I'm leaning strong towards the Rav4 but would consider a vehicle that has a V6 option.


Unless you're dead set on fuel economy and Imports, both of those vehicles are gutless and expensive. My wife and I went to every dealership in Halifax shopping for an"SUV" before our daughter was born. (before I make my next statement, just so you know, the only vehicles I ever owned before this were Honda.) We ended up settling on a Ford Edge, I know it's not even in the same class. But by the time we got the options we wanted it actually cost less ($4000 Less) than the CRV and RAV4 and Ford was much more willing to haggle on price than Honda or Toyota. When buying options at Honda and Toyota you have to buy packages. Say you want to get A/C, which one would think would be around $1000 for arguments sake. With those import companies you have to buy the"Comfort package" which is a $4000 ad on. So by the time you get the one or two or three options you want there are $10k in extras or you give something up that you wanted to save money. Not only that, but when I am on the highway and want to pass someone before I grow a beard and without my car sounding like it giving birth I can. There is much more room and comfort features and my wife doesn't run into things when backing out of a parking lot anymore because of the camera. To top it all off the stereo sounds great! I'm not saying that you should buy a Ford by any means, but don't just go buy what's on paper, because that's what I always did. go out drive cars, haggle and be open minded. All dealerships are different so you might find a vehicle that surprises you and manage a good deal to boot! My only other piece of advise is to shop in December. It's a slow time for car sales (or at least it is here) and you're more likely to get a good deal. Good Luck with the search!


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

adcandour said:


> I'm biased, cause my dad oversees the design of a lot of ford transmission cases. That, and the high ups come over for dinner a lot and would piss on me if I drove anything else.



Piss on them and tell them to bring the jobs back to Canada... 'til then, tell them you are seeking best value within the global market so your household "stays competitive.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Moosehead said:


> Bottom line for whatever you choose, in our climate 4 wheel or all wheel drive makes the world of difference.


Being an avid skier, I have read countless ski mags. Every winter, there is usually an article on vehicles good for winter driving. One that has popped up a few times is what is better for winter driving, a four wheel drive with all-season tires or a two wheel drive with snow tires? The driving test proves that two wheel drive with snow tires wins every time.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> Being an avid skier, I have read countless ski mags. Every winter, there is usually an article on vehicles good for winter driving. One that has popped up a few times is what is better for winter driving, a four wheel drive with all-season tires or a two wheel drive with snow tires? The driving test proves that two wheel drive with snow tires wins every time.


I'm a rural guy and see lots of people in the ditch. 8 times out of 10, its a 4x4. 
I swear by fwd and snows. Never been stuck with it. My 2wd work truck?? POS in the snow even with 4 bags of softener salt sitting right at the tailgat


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Scotty said:


> I'm a rural guy and see lots of people in the ditch. 8 times out of 10, its a 4x4.
> I swear by fwd and snows. Never been stuck with it. My 2wd work truck?? POS in the snow even with 4 bags of softener salt sitting right at the tailgat


A lot of that is people's false sense of stability when drivng SUVs.

High center of gravity = Drive slow or flip over.

I don't get the appeal at all.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Scotty said:


> I'm a rural guy and see lots of people in the ditch. 8 times out of 10, its a 4x4.
> I swear by fwd and snows. Never been stuck with it. My 2wd work truck?? POS in the snow even with 4 bags of softener salt sitting right at the tailgat


Well, if you're rural, it stands to reason you'd see a lot more farm trucks and these days, at least out west, that's 98% 4x4s.

I think a lot of 4WD drivers are idiots. There's no doubt they can get going faster in slippery conditions, just none. The problem comes when they suddenly realize it's a heavier vehicle and takes much longer to slow down. The quick acceleration - and maybe the thought that if they get stuck, they can get out of anything - breeds false confidence.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> Being an avid skier, I have read countless ski mags. Every winter, there is usually an article on vehicles good for winter driving. One that has popped up a few times is what is better for winter driving, a four wheel drive with all-season tires or a two wheel drive with snow tires? The driving test proves that two wheel drive with snow tires wins every time.


Yes I also heard that. But then I heard that AWD+snow tires trumps all.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> But then I heard that AWD+snow tires trumps all.


except...


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I went with the gf to buy her new little suv. It was the Rav vs the crv. She chose the crv. I thought it takes its utilitarian scope more seriously than the rav, so I liked it much better. Toyota dealer was kinda douchey as well...........


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Talking to my local Honda dealer on the phone they have a 2014 CRV demo with about 16,000 km on it that they've heavliy discounted. Sounds like they're willing to entertain lower offers as they're motivated to clear it out.
One of the discounts I was quoted is the waiving of the freight and PDI. Is that something that would be charged on a demo with that much mileage any way?


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

They'll just charge you for whatever they can get you to agree to.


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2014)

Does TrueCar work in Canada? If so, I recommend it. No sales people to deal with. Find the price you're comfortable with on the car you like. Print amount, walk in, buy. NO upsells on anything. If that doesn't work try working with their Internet sales dept. I find it much easier to negotiate over email than in person.

Also check out this NPR TAL podcast: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/513/129-cars -- buy late in the month is my takeaway from that one. Late in the year even.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

That's one drawback of buying a used Honda. CRVs and Civics hold their value surprisingly well.

But yes, Smorgy's right. They'll charge you with whatever they can get you to agree to.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

djmarcelca said:


> I'm an Auto Tech during the day (licensed and everything LOL)
> 
> Honda's: EVERY Honda starts to burn oil around the 150-200K mark. Just look for the puff of blue from the exhaust when starting or when pressing the gas down.
> 
> Toyota: Never met one that didn't leak oil. And rotten Exhaust. <snip>


Appreciate all the insight (really!) but have to say that my wife is on her fourth Toyota and I have hardly ever had to do anything but oil, brakes and tires. Two Avalons and then two Highlanders have each gone 150K-230K without any oil leak.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

keto said:


> Well, if you're rural, it stands to reason you'd see a lot more farm trucks and these days, at least out west, that's 98% 4x4s.
> 
> I think a lot of 4WD drivers are idiots. There's no doubt they can get going faster in slippery conditions, just none. The problem comes when they suddenly realize it's a heavier vehicle and takes much longer to slow down. The quick acceleration - and maybe the thought that if they get stuck, they can get out of anything - breeds false confidence.


I have an AWD vehicle and I can take it places none of my cars could ever go, however people are morons............ if it's slippery out it doesn't matter if 2 or 4 wheels are moving if there is little to no traction then more moving tires help nothing. It is however really nice to be able to drive over than big pile of snow that the asshole plow operator dumped in the end of my driveway 30 seconds after I have finished shoveling!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

boyscout said:


> Appreciate all the insight (really!) but have to say that my wife is on her fourth Toyota and I have hardly ever had to do anything but oil, brakes and tires. Two Avalons and then two Highlanders have each gone 150K-230K without any oil leak.


That is really nothing special for many of the new vehicles today. I never think about replacing any of my vehicles until I am in the 200K and over range. None of them have been Toyota's or Honda's.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Chitmo said:


> I have an AWD vehicle and I can take it places none of my cars could ever go, however people are morons............ if it's slippery out it doesn't matter if 2 or 4 wheels are moving if there is little to no traction then more moving tires help nothing. It is however really nice to be able to drive over than big pile of snow that the asshole plow operator dumped in the end of my driveway 30 seconds after I have finished shoveling!


You live in Nova Scotia. The OP lives in Southern Ontario.

Just pointing out the obvious differences in driving conditions.


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## YellowLedbetter (Nov 26, 2014)

I used to sell cars. December is usually a pretty good time to buy. Every dealership has target sales for the year, and if they make them they get kick backs from the manufacturer. If a dealership hasn't hit their target they will often sell for cost or even a small loss in Dec. just to try and hit that kick back (trust it's worth their while. they get big money back)

The other thing is for the love of god please don't finance a year or 2 old vehicle. It's the dumbest thing you can possibly do. 

People are idiots when it comes to this. They see a 1 year old car that's 8k less than the new one and only has 30km on it. What a great deal! NO!!!! You are going to pay 6% interest financing a used car. They all finance at standard bank rates. If you buy a new car you can often get under 1% interest, and in the end wind up paying the exact same for the used car as you would a new one. 

I'm not against used cars, especially if you are paying cash it is great to see that depreciation in value. I just hate when people get screwed into paying a shit load for a used car when they could have a new one on the same term for lower payments.

And speaking of payments, yes it is a scam, but there's truth to it too. Don't buy a car on the monthly payment alone, but don't but a car on the purchase price alone. My favorite way is to use monthly payments then multiply by the number of payments. That will tell you exactly how much money comes out of your pocket to own this vehicle.

And all of the above is why I was not a big enough asshole to be a successful car salesman haha. People don't want the truth. They don't want the salesman to help them find the best deal for them. They want to be lied to, and convinced that whatever they were thinking when they walked in the door is right


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## Guest (Nov 28, 2014)

Milkman said:


> You live in Nova Scotia. The OP lives in Southern Ontario.
> 
> Just pointing out the obvious differences in driving conditions.


Having experienced both places in Winter the climates are actually very comparable.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

Milkman said:


> You live in Nova Scotia. The OP lives in Southern Ontario.
> 
> Just pointing out the obvious differences in driving conditions.


Thanks for the tip, but I have lived in 5 provinces including Ontario. I can tell you that the condition in all of them are equally crappy in different ways. NS may not get as much snow but there is a lot of icy weather which is just as bad or worse sometimes, not to mention you completely missed my point.


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## Disbeat (Jul 30, 2011)

I was gonna say the same thing, I've lived here 6 years now and last year was probably the worst winter I've seen since living here.



iaresee said:


> Having experienced both places in Winter the climates are actually very comparable.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

Steadfastly said:


> That is really nothing special for many of the new vehicles today. I never think about replacing any of my vehicles until I am in the 200K and over range. None of them have been Toyota's or Honda's.


Read carefully. My comment about the four Toyota's we've owned was in response to mechanic djmarcelca who said that he'd never met a Toyota that didn't leak oil.

Coincidentally, I drove my wife's car tonight, hardly ever do, and learned that she has over 260K on it, not the 230K I believed. Still no leak.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

boyscout said:


> Read carefully. My comment about the four Toyota's we've owned was in response to mechanic djmarcelca who said that he'd never met a Toyota that didn't leak oil.
> 
> Coincidentally, I drove my wife's car tonight, hardly ever do, and learned that she has over 260K on it, not the 230K I believed. Still no leak.


Its hard to believe djmarcelca's gerneralization on every vehicle. I think if every toyota leaked oil at high mileage and every Honda burned oil that they wouldn't have earned the reputation they did. 
In the past 25 years Most every car I've owned (mostly GM) has been reliable overall. I had a Cavalier for over 10 years that racked up close to 300,000 km. It needed about $1,200 worth of work, mainly regular maintenance, brakes, water pump and tires but the engine and tranny were solid. No oil leak, no burning oil and no rust. I did opt to get rid of it instead of fixing the minor stuff as the AC didn't work for the last 2 years I had it and I didn't want to face another summer without AC.
The chev uplander has probably been the worst vehicle I've ever owned. A couple years ago I spent $2,000 on the transmission and in the past year close to $2,000 on various stuff related to the front end and emissions. As well brakes, tires, etc. Now I have suspension issues an oil leak and oil burning and the brakes need to be fixed. I knew it was a fairly cheaply built vehicle when I bought it but was hoping to get more than 270,000km out of a V6. In my opinion the Cavalier was a budget car as well but it was one of the better vehicles I've owned.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Chitmo said:


> Thanks tips, but I have lived in 5 provinces including Ontario. I can tell you that the condition in all of them are equally crappy in different ways. NS may not get as much snow but there is a lot of icy weather which is just as bad or worse sometimes, not to mention you completely missed my point.


Comparing Nova Scotia to Ontario really is difficult because if you live in the Halifax area or west of there, you will have very little snow. But if you live in the Cape Breton area or close to the New Brunswick border you'll get blasted with snow on a pretty regular basis. It really depends on *where* in Nova Scotia you live. It is quite a long province from end to end and once you get away from the ocean the weather is completely different.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Disbeat said:


> I was gonna say the same thing, I've lived here 6 years now and last year was probably the worst winter I've seen since living here.


Last year was the worst we have seen in S. Ontario - at least 25 years. Still didnt need a 4x4 or tow truck. 
Its all about learning to drive what you have and staying off the roads when you should not be on them. Roads closed? Stay home.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Chitmo said:


> Thanks for the tip, but I have lived in 5 provinces including Ontario. I can tell you that the condition in all of them are equally crappy in different ways. NS may not get as much snow but there is a lot of icy weather which is just as bad or worse sometimes, not to mention you completely missed my point.



Ok, no offence intended. Perhaps you also missed MY point.

I have also lived and driven all over Canada.

My experience is completely different than yours. Winters on the east coast (I was born and raised in New Brunswick) were MUCH more severe, with colder temps and ten times more snow than I have ever seen on Southern Ontario.

The winters here are typically mild and we have melts between each major snowfall.

We simply don't need 4WD here. That's not to say it doesn't help, but it's really no trouble driving a normal passenger car with all seasons here all winter long.


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

Milkman said:


> We simply don't need 4WD here. That's not to say it doesn't help, but it's really *no trouble driving a normal passenger car with all seasons here all winter long*.


This is simply not correct. While its true we dont need 4x4, fwd is fine but It can be big trouble if you dont have good tires for the conditions. Winter conditions deserve snow tires. A mild winter you can get away with all seasons but your taking a big chance. A little bit of wet snow on the road and its slip and slide time.

I have driven small/med sized cars, euro's (BMW and M-B), rear wheel drive trucks, AWD cars and 4x4's. All performed exponentially better in winter conditions with good snow tires. The rear wheel drive Euro's were absolutely useless with all seasons. I didnt think I needed snows on my 4Runner untill I moved to Quebec, the first winter there we couldnt see the stop signs on the street(buried). 

My wife works with clients that have had traumatic injury (most from car accidents) and on top of being fubar'd in an accident you then have to fight the insurance companies for everything from rehab services to cash for a new vehicle (that is if the accident hasnt caused some driving anxiety and you arent afraid to get back on the horse). So if something like that can possibly be prevented with 600-800 bucks worth of good rubber its money well spent. As Michelin says "you have a lot riding on your tires".

P.S. OP, sorry for the hijack and forget about a new car, buy new snow tires lol

BTW - Tires I have used are Blizzaks DMz-3(favorite but soft rubber) and Michelin x-ice (good all round ice/snow/hwy)


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I go back and forth whether to buy a car with AWD or not. As I'm considering the Honda CRV it seems that AWD comes on automatically as needed and I've been told that it most likely gets used about 1 or 2% of the time. For an $1,800 option I'm wondering if thats even worth it. Is that 1 or 2% of the time it may engage crucial. If so maybe its worth it.
Any way the demo I'm going to look at today is FWD so maybe if its a good enough deal I'll not worry about it. Either way I go its a certainty that I'm going to buy a good set of brand new snows.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

Relatives bought a loaded Toy Rav4, AWD. I found the ride harsh. I did suggest to buy a less loaded 2 wd model and take the money they save and buy four winter tires. Four wheel drive is more expensive on gas and maintenance. The owners feel strongly that winter tires are not needed because of the 4 wheel drive. All 4wd does is help to accelerate slightly faster in snow/ice but does not help in cornering or braking. Winter tires and 2 wheel drive for me.

The only real advantage to 4wd is that you get stuck further away from the road.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Moosehead said:


> This is simply not correct. While its true we dont need 4x4, fwd is fine but It can be big trouble if you dont have good tires for the conditions. Winter conditions deserve snow tires. A mild winter you can get away with all seasons but your taking a big chance. A little bit of wet snow on the road and its slip and slide time.
> 
> I have driven small/med sized cars, euro's (BMW and M-B), rear wheel drive trucks, AWD cars and 4x4's. All performed exponentially better in winter conditions with good snow tires. The rear wheel drive Euro's were absolutely useless with all seasons. I didnt think I needed snows on my 4Runner untill I moved to Quebec, the first winter there we couldnt see the stop signs on the street(buried).
> 
> ...



Ok, it's not correct for you and your missus.

It IS correct for me and those I associate with most closely. I haven't installed a set of winter tires since I moved up here in 78. I don't commute, well only ten minutes across town, but do a fair bit of driving. I guess maybe I'm just lucky and don't live in a snow belt.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Ok, no offence intended. Perhaps you also missed MY point.
> 
> I have also lived and driven all over Canada.
> 
> ...


I agree. I have driven with all season tires for over 30 years and not even close to an accident. I too am from NB and smile when people say we're getting a snow storm and it's 2-3 inches. Back in NB, we don't blink at that.

As Milkman says, winter tires can help but I agree, it is not necessary, at least not for these two NBer's.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> I agree. I have driven with all season tires for over 30 years and not even close to an accident. I too am from NB and smile when people say we're getting a snow storm and it's 2-3 inches. Back in NB, we don't blink at that.
> 
> As Milkman says, winter tires can help but I agree, it is not necessary, at least not for these two NBer's.


I used to scoff at winter tires, but since switching, we will never be without them. I think it should be law in every province and not just Quebec. It is beyond night and day in difference


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

guitarman2 said:


> Its hard to believe djmarcelca's gerneralization on every vehicle. I think if every toyota leaked oil at high mileage and every Honda burned oil that they wouldn't have earned the reputation they did.


I didn't say they were not well made. They're pretty decent quality. 

But pull up behind any older Honda civic and watch the tailpipe when starting. Watch for the puff o blue, that's buring oil. When driving and you step on it to pass something, puff o blue, burning oil. 

it's not not much, normally does not affect the level on the dipstick. 

Just like a toyota leaking oil doesn't affect the operation of the engine, unless it's a real severe leak. 
They all leak. Especially around the spark plug wire wells, front crank seal, and camshaft seals. 
These usually get mistaken for oil pans leaking.

the japanese engines are pretty forgiving for operating relaibly with small issues, so owners neglect the little things until, the engine completely craps out. Then yell at me for telling them the bad news.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Scotty said:


> I used to scoff at winter tires, but since switching, we will never be without them. I think it should be law in every province and not just Quebec. It is beyond night and day in difference


I tend to agree with this (maybe not so much on the law part, but it sure is a great idea if you can swing it financially) - I was in my mid-40's when I got my first ever set of winter tires (on a Taurus). They make a HUGE difference in traction, in both directions of the speed plane and even just on the straight and narrow if you hit icy conditions. They're so much softer (ergo, why they wear faster and aren't for use generally on dry pavement) that they grip tremendously better even in very cold conditions, on any sort of snow or ice. I just buy the Canadian Tire cheapies, so like $500 a set including rims last I checked...4 sets over 4 vehicles, been awesome. That said, my last and current vehicles are awd so haven't been able to justify the cost though I probably should do anyways.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Well it's done. I went in to look at a 2014 demo CRV EX (midline) and ended up walking out with a 2015 CRV Touring. Had them both out for an extensive test run and the Touring just felt better. Lots of toys, leather seats, etc. 
Boy do I hate car shopping. This is why I drive them in to the ground. Not necessarily because I get attached to a particular vehicle (though I get used to them and love them) but because I hate the car shopping experience. I spent 2 hours getting the car from almost $38,000 to $35,000 with some minor extras thrown in. Even though they made me believe that they were going it a little bit at a loss they most likely still made lots from me.
Even though this is an AWD I'll still probably throw snows on it. My wife and I commute back and forth to Hamilton and even though I have the option to wake up in the morning to a snow storm and work from home, my wife has no choice and has to go in. So I want every ounce of protection for her. That being said, I too am one that in 30 years has never put snows on a car.
I would like to thank everyone here for the comments, suggestions and advice.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Snow tires dont cost much more in the long run because it extends the interval for replacing new tires by double. Your only real extra is in buying a second set of rims.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Scotty said:


> Snow tires dont cost much more in the long run because it extends the interval for replacing new tires by double. Your only real extra is in buying a second set of rims.


That is pretty much true and an excellent point. Snows do wear quicker because they are a softer compound but if you're driving them on snow rather than pavement they will last much longer. My standard tires are quite a bit more than my snows as they are an 18" low profile so even if the snows wear out quicker the price difference likely will match about dollar for dollar.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> That is pretty much true and an excellent point. Snows do wear quicker because they are a softer compound but if you're driving them on snow rather than pavement they will last much longer. My standard tires are quite a bit more than my snows as they are an 18" low profile so even if the snows wear out quicker the price difference likely will match about dollar for dollar.



The way I understand it is, yes the snows are softer but to account for the cold weather. If you're to drive them in the summer, yeah you're going to chew them up pretty quick as the heat will make them too soft, whereas in the colder winter they remain soft enough to still hug the road as well as a summer tire hugs the road in the summer heat.
So therefore, the way I understand it a winter tire should not wear any faster than a summer tire as long as you're not driving on them in the summer. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> The way I understand it is, yes the snows are softer but to account for the cold weather. If you're to drive them in the summer, yeah you're going to chew them up pretty quick as the heat will make them too soft, whereas in the colder winter they remain soft enough to still hug the road as well as a summer tire hugs the road in the summer heat.
> So therefore, the way I understand it a winter tire should not wear any faster than a summer tire as long as you're not driving on them in the summer. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


You are using way too much reasoning here!:smile-new: That makes sense. Now someone can correct us both if that is wrong.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

I have a full set of winter tires on all my cars. They are great insurance to help me avoid these barely in control morons who feel all seasons is all you need to drive in GTA winters. My Dad. a retired mechanic and car expert never had winter tires and felt his great driving skills is all he needs. I got him a deal on used winters last year and to quote him, " Wow, what a difference winter tires make!" He drives an AWD SUV.

I was driving on a dry highway with fairly worn winter tires one March. The temperature was about 4 degrees C. I had to make a, bum off the seat, all my weight on the brake pedal, emergency stop from 60 kph. ABS did not even have to kick in due to no tire slippage. I stopped with cm's to spare - unfortunately Mr All Seasons behind me, tapped my bumper while doing a squealing stop. Winter tires are not only for snowy conditions - they are also amazing on cold roads.

So yah, winter tires are cheaper than paying deductible from an accident claim


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I haven't yet heard back about credit approval through Honda financing but I'm thinking of backing out of the deal as I'm not reading good things about Honda financing. I'm thinking of just going to my own bank for a loan (which will be higher interest) and going and negotiating a new lower price. Either with the same Honda dealership or a different one.
Anyone else have experience with Honda financing?


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

Milkman said:


> Ok, no offence intended. Perhaps you also missed MY point. I have also lived and driven all over Canada. My experience is completely different than yours. Winters on the east coast (I was born and raised in New Brunswick) were MUCH more severe, with colder temps and ten times more snow than I have ever seen on Southern Ontario. The winters here are typically mild and we have melts between each major snowfall.
> 
> We simply don't need 4WD here. That's not to say it doesn't help, but it's really no trouble driving a normal passenger car with all seasons here all winter long.


Tell me where you were last winter, I want to move there! Last winter was BRUTAL, frequently including the driving conditions, north of Toronto.

I am VERY glad that both my wife and I drive AWD vehicles, not only for our winter conditions when they provide very good traction with all-season tires but even in the summer. Even on dry pavement, AWD (not 4WD, that's different) provides noticeable improvements in handling in cornering, and the improvement gets more noticeable as the road surface and/or condition deteriorates. I now wouldn't buy a vehicle without it.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

boyscout said:


> Tell me where you were last winter, I want to move there! Last winter was BRUTAL, frequently including the driving conditions, north of Toronto.
> 
> I am VERY glad that both my wife and I drive AWD vehicles, not only for our winter conditions when they provide very good traction with all-season tires but even in the summer. Even on dry pavement, AWD (not 4WD, that's different) the improved handling is noticeable in cornering, and gets more noticeable as road surface and/or condition deteriorates. I now wouldn't buy a vehicle without it.


Last year was the worst winter in more than 20 years. I wouldn't use that as a benchmark.

I was located in Brantford as indicated in all of my posts.

I have an AWD vehicle this winter but honestly I prefer a normal FWD car. In summer I drive only RWD but that car will NEVER see a Canadian winter as long as I own it.

If you perceive that you have better control with your AWD cars, the confidence alone will provide added safety.

But, even with last winter being abnormally severe, I still drove an Altima with all seasons and had no trouble at all.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> That is pretty much true and an excellent point. Snows do wear quicker because they are a softer compound but if you're driving them on snow rather than pavement they will last much longer. My standard tires are quite a bit more than my snows as they are an 18" low profile so even if the snows wear out quicker the price difference likely will match about dollar for dollar.


I forgot, I actually get an insurance discount because of my snow tires. So really in the long run it might actually be cheaper (Or no more expensive) to own two sets of tires.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Scotty said:


> I forgot, I actually get an insurance discount because of my snow tires. So really in the long run it might actually be cheaper (Or no more expensive) to own two sets of tires.


That is something we should all check out. Surely, the insurance companies make enough off of us as it is. Another discount is always welcome.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Well it's done. I went in to look at a 2014 demo CRV EX (midline) and ended up walking out with a 2015 CRV Touring. Had them both out for an extensive test run and the Touring just felt better. Lots of toys, leather seats, etc.
> Boy do I hate car shopping. This is why I drive them in to the ground. Not necessarily because I get attached to a particular vehicle (though I get used to them and love them) but because I hate the car shopping experience. I spent 2 hours getting the car from almost $38,000 to $35,000 with some minor extras thrown in. Even though they made me believe that they were going it a little bit at a loss they most likely still made lots from me.
> Even though this is an AWD I'll still probably throw snows on it. My wife and I commute back and forth to Hamilton and even though I have the option to wake up in the morning to a snow storm and work from home, my wife has no choice and has to go in. So I want every ounce of protection for her. That being said, I too am one that in 30 years has never put snows on a car.
> I would like to thank everyone here for the comments, suggestions and advice.


Congrats and good choice!

I think you'll be happy.


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

Every Honda burns oil??? Where are you a tech, so I can avoid the place!! To the OP, don't buy new, as your just throwing $$$ away in depreciation. Buy a well maintained lease return, and if you are buying German (at your own peril) or domestic, buy an extended warranty from the manufacturer, not an outside company. If your looking at mCRV, which is the best of the small SUV's, you will be a pretty happy camper.


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

djmarcelca said:


> But pull up behind any older Honda civic and watch the tailpipe when starting. Watch for the puff o blue, that's buring oil. When driving and you step on it to pass something, puff o blue, burning oil.
> 
> it's not not much, normally does not affect the level on the dipstick.


If the oil level doesn't go down, then it isn't burning enough oil to worry about! If you want to split hairs, all engines burn oil. You're doing the backstroke now pal.

T.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Not all engines burn oil. Mine burns trioxygen. Youre living in the past now pal................


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

CocoTone said:


> Every Honda burns oil??? Where are you a tech, so I can avoid the place!! To the OP, don't buy new, as your just throwing $$$ away in depreciation. Buy a well maintained lease return, and if you are buying German (at your own peril) or domestic, buy an extended warranty from the manufacturer, not an outside company. If your looking at mCRV, which is the best of the small SUV's, you will be a pretty happy camper.


I wrestled with my decision to buy new. I ended up buying new because I wanted the next 3 years to be fairly worry free driving. As in the manufactures bumper to bumper 3year\60k and 5 year\100k powertrain.
I bought Honda because I am relying on the reliability reputation and I will do to this car what I do to every car. Drive it in to the ground. I hate car shopping and usually my car is being stopped by my feet and burning 4L of oil a week before I'm motivated to replace it. I've driven almost exclusively GM for the past 25 years and I can usually get 10 years or close to it out of a brand new car. So with Honda I'm hoping to get at least that or maybe even 12 years. The vehicle I'm replacing is a gm (chev uplander) and I only got about 7 1/2 years out of it so it hasn't been my best vehicle. Since I've replaced the transmission 2 years ago among other things over the years its been about the worst. So I'm hoping for better from the Honda CRV. I spoiled my self a little by going with the Touring. I really didn't have to do that.
As for depreciation, I guess if I'm going to drive it in to the ground I'm not sure how that affects me. As well I did contemplate used and was quite amazed what people are asking for their used Hondas. Seems they hold their value pretty well.
On a side note its been a shock to not have driven a new car for the past almost 8 years. I now feel like I've got a computer on wheels. The technology is almost overwhelming. And I work in I.T.


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

guitarman2 said:


> I wrestled with my decision to buy new. I ended up buying new because I wanted the next 3 years to be fairly worry free driving. As in the manufactures bumper to bumper 3year\60k and 5 year\100k powertrain.
> I bought Honda because I am relying on the reliability reputation and I will do to this car what I do to every car. Drive it in to the ground. I hate car shopping and usually my car is being stopped by my feet and burning 4L of oil a week before I'm motivated to replace it. I've driven almost exclusively GM for the past 25 years and I can usually get 10 years or close to it out of a brand new car. So with Honda I'm hoping to get at least that or maybe even 12 years. The vehicle I'm replacing is a gm (chev uplander) and I only got about 7 1/2 years out of it so it hasn't been my best vehicle. Since I've replaced the transmission 2 years ago among other things over the years its been about the worst. So I'm hoping for better from the Honda CRV. I spoiled my self a little by going with the Touring. I really didn't have to do that.
> As for depreciation, I guess if I'm going to drive it in to the ground I'm not sure how that affects me. As well I did contemplate used and was quite amazed what people are asking for their used Hondas. Seems they hold their value pretty well.
> On a side note its been a shock to not have driven a new car for the past almost 8 years. I now feel like I've got a computer on wheels. The technology is almost overwhelming. And I work in I.T.


Congratulations on the new CRV, I bought a new Civic a couple of months ago... coming from my 97 Chev C1500 the dash in the Honda is like you said "a computer on wheels". How do you find the CVT so far?


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

The CRV holds its value because its a solid good product. I think its Hondas best product, but then it all depends on where you drive...........


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> On a side note its been a shock to not have driven a new car for the past almost 8 years. I now feel like I've got a computer on wheels. *The technology is almost overwhelming. And I work in I.T.*


Congrats on the new car! 

The continual increase in technological bells and whistles in cars will certainly scare me when I go to trade-in /purchase. 

Have fun with your new Honda.

Cheers

Dave


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Morkolo said:


> Congratulations on the new CRV, I bought a new Civic a couple of months ago... coming from my 97 Chev C1500 the dash in the Honda is like you said "a computer on wheels". How do you find the CVT so far?


The CRV doesn't have CVT.

- - - Updated - - -



Accept2 said:


> The CRV holds its value because its a solid good product. I think its Hondas best product, but then it all depends on where you drive...........



And based on what you need.

Definitely a global platform for Honda. They make them in three plants in North America alone.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> The CRV doesn't have CVT.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -


As of 2015 it does.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

CocoTone said:


> don't buy new, as your just throwing $$$ away in depreciation.


I hear this sentiment expressed a lot but I have bought new and used...a few of both. By far, in my experience, buying new has been a major advantage even after factoring in depreciation.

#1 - a car that has not been treated well can still be well-maintained and that often ends up in problems that appear later on. This doesn't mean that you cannot get a good one but I don't like to gamble on something that takes me years to pay for.

#2 - after the multiple cars that I have bought used and new, I have decided that *I want to break-in the engine myself*. To me, that is the most critical aspect of a vehicle and its longevity.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Morkolo said:


> How do you find the CVT so far?


I'm not one to drive a car and notice the performance differences, etc. I hear reviews that criticize the CR-V as being disconnected from the road and that the CVT just makes it worse. If there hadn't been such a controversy over CVT I might not have even noticed. And thats saying something because when I did pay attention the difference is quite obvious. But I don't drive a car to be connected to the road. I drive it to get reliably from point A to point B. If I could get in a car lay the seat down and go to sleep while the car drove me to my destination automatically I'd do it in a heartbeat. It doesn't get any more disconnected than that. 
I find the CVT great. Just like one long gear. But its not its going to be a feature that I'll outwardly enjoy. It is what it is. Some call the CR-V boring. But I guess I'm not looking for exciting. I've also seen the reviews that say the CR-V Touring is a car that has a feature rich set that you'd mainly find in a car twice its price. I'd have to agree with that.

- - - Updated - - -



smorgdonkey said:


> #2 - after the multiple cars that I have bought used and new, I have decided that *I want to break-in the engine myself*. To me, that is the most critical aspect of a vehicle and its longevity.


I've been told that engine break-in is somewhat of a myth. Although in the same breath the dealership told me that it will take a few kilometers before you realize the maximum fuel efficiency.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> But I don't drive a car to be connected to the road. I drive it to get reliably from point A to point B. If I could get in a car lay the seat down and go to sleep while the car drove me to my destination automatically I'd do it in a heartbeat. It doesn't get any more disconnected than that.


You took those words right out of my brain!

However, because I CAN'T do that, I do want to be 'connected', as I have to ultimately control what the vehicle does in unexpected situations...but, the main point is: *when can we get those cars that drive us automatically!!?*

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guitarman2 said:


> I've been told that engine break-in is somewhat of a myth. Although in the same breath the dealership told me that it will take a few kilometers before you realize the maximum fuel efficiency.


Yes, sounds like you got a bit of 'dealership double-talk' there. I would say that my car started getting better fuel economy after about 35 or 40 thousand KM. 

My thing with break-in is that I want to seat the piston rings early. 

This guy's theory is what I believe:
http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> As of 2015 it does.



Sorry, I stand corrected. I know Honda had put the brakes on their CVT development for awhile. Nissan moved ahead full speed. I have driven the Nissan CVTs for a few years now and love them.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> You took those words right out of my brain!
> 
> However, because I CAN'T do that, I do want to be 'connected', as I have to ultimately control what the vehicle does in unexpected situations...but, the main point is: *when can we get those cars that drive us automatically!!?*
> 
> ...


Yes I'm the first one to be highly skeptical of anything a dealership tells me. Dealerships are a big reason I hate the "car shopping" experience. However we live in a world where many of us believe there's a break-in period for everything even when it doesn't make logical sense. So there's a fair amount of skepticism there as well.
I'll most likely take care not to abuse the car too much as long as I own it so I'm not going to worry about extra pampering it for a supposed break-in period.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> I'll most likely take care not to abuse the car too much as long as I own it so I'm not going to worry about extra pampering it for a supposed break-in period.


Don't give it 'extra pampering'...early on, warm it up fully by driving easy and then run it hard. Hard to do this in daily traffic so that's why I take a specific run to do it...no errands, just break-in.

After that, just make sure it warms up fully before any sort of aggressive acceleration. Most people start it up and then race away-worst thing that can be done.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Sorry, I stand corrected. I know Honda had put the brakes on their CVT development for awhile. Nissan moved ahead full speed. I have driven the Nissan CVTs for a few years now and love them.


I went to a styx concert a couple weeks ago and my wife and I drove up with friends in their Nissan Murano and I loved it. I was seriously considering the Nissan Rogue but decided against after finding out about all the problems that Nissan experienced with their CVT including a lawsuit. This is the major reason I dropped Nissan as a possibility. I'm not sure if they have the same concerns with their 2015 models but once it gets in your head...
It came down to the Toyota Rav4 Limited which doesn't have CVT and the Honda CR-V Touring. I liked the Honda better and the engine seemed much more adequate. I felt the Rav4 seemed a bit underpowerd even though its only about 15 hp less.

- - - Updated - - -



smorgdonkey said:


> Don't give it 'extra pampering'...early on, warm it up fully by driving easy and then run it hard. Hard to do this in daily traffic so that's why I take a specific run to do it...no errands, just break-in.
> 
> After that, just make sure it warms up fully before any sort of aggressive acceleration. Most people start it up and then race away-worst thing that can be done.


This morning was the first morning for it and I had fully warmed it up in the driveway for about 15 minutes. Then my commute is right on the 403 to Hamilton. So pretty much every morning it will get a good run on the highway. Even if I don't fully warm it up it takes about 5 to 7 minutes to get to the highway from my house.
Recomended oil and the oil it comes with is ow-20 synthetic so it should warm up a little quicker.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

I don't like idle warm up. Very little oil pressure. 30 seconds of idle is all...the only time you need more is if the windows aren't clear. Smooth and easy acceleration... Granny drive...until fully warm then some half throttle acceleration and some full throttle acceleration. Rings actually need this early on.


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## FreewayJam (Sep 4, 2012)

guitarman2 said:


> Talking to my local Honda dealer on the phone they have a 2014 CRV demo with about 16,000 km on it that they've heavliy discounted. Sounds like they're willing to entertain lower offers as they're motivated to clear it out.
> One of the discounts I was quoted is the waiving of the freight and PDI. Is that something that would be charged on a demo with that much mileage any way?


If its a demo, then there is no freight PDI charge, so they are not really offering a discount with that as it is done automatically.
( at least it was in the days when i was with Ford, and we sold demo's ) They cannot charge a PDI - Pre Delivery Inspection - on a car that has been on the road / licensed,
same goes for the freight. So if they are saying they will drop that as a "deal" hmmm....


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## FreewayJam (Sep 4, 2012)

Just saw that my post was too late to the party !
Congrats on the new CRV, think its a great choice - and i'm a Ford guy ! - Excellent quality, as good a resale value as anything in that range / class,
many years of happy motoring !


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

FreewayJam said:


> Just saw that my post was too late to the party !
> Congrats on the new CRV, think its a great choice - and i'm a Ford guy ! - Excellent quality, as good a resale value as anything in that range / class,
> many years of happy motoring !


Thank you. Yeah they sold the demo before I even had a chance to test drive so I went new with a 2015. I was told by other people in the industry that even if its a demo as long as it has been registered as sold that PDI and freight can still be applied. I did once buy a demo about 20 years ago but I can't honestly remember if I did pay PDI and freight.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

smorgdonkey said:


> I don't like idle warm up. Very little oil pressure. 30 seconds of idle is all...the only time you need more is if the windows aren't clear. Smooth and easy acceleration... Granny drive...until fully warm then some half throttle acceleration and some full throttle acceleration. Rings actually need this early on.


30 secs. doesn't cut it right now, here. Takes about 10 min. for the windows to clear in the truck.....with me scrapping the outside, and to warm up the inside. Then it's stop and go for 20 min., to do all of 7 km from house to work. A long run might be 3 blocks and maybe 50 kph. By then the air blowing out of the defroster is getting comfortably warm. If I don't let the truck warm up, aside from the windows not clearing, the clutch sticks and it's a bitch to shift.


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