# Hospital burden



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

This is NOT any sort of political statement, nor is it complaint. Just a description of what is.

Yesterday, I spent from 8:30AM to 12:45AM trying to get a consult. I had called our family doctor's office on Thursday to try and get an appointment, but she's not "seeing" patients, just doing phone consults, so the office recommended a walk-in clinic instead. We have a bunch of Appletree clinics within a short distance of us. Two were entirely booked and a third allowed one to register for appointments, starting at 3:30, with one person allowed in at a time. I waited in line for 20min, outside in the searing heat. A guy two people behind me had two preschool-age kids with him. I couldn't wait any longer and didn't want to make that guy wait, so I left, figuring I'd return in the morning when it would be cooler.

So, Friday I'm back at 8:15 or so to wait for registration to begin at 8:30. Just me and one other person in the line, so registration proceeds smoothly. I'm booked for an appointment at 2:00PM, and the other person in line can't get an appointment because she doesn't meet the criteria of what they can examine.

I come back at 2, and "they" is one person in the entire place. Not even sure she is actually an MD. Might be a medical student. With just me and her in the entire place, it is dead silent in there. Turned out that what I had come for - a sharp pain in the vicinity of my liver - did not meet their inclusion criteria for examination. But, she took my info and history, cleared the referral with HQ in Toronto over video, prepared a referral document and directed me to the nearby hospital. Though the formal referral and paperwork was intended to expedite my being seen at emergency, in reality, it save about 10minutes out of 9hrs.

I get there a bit before 3:00. Emergency was packed to the gills. Everyone was spaced out in little "isolation booths" made with glass dividers between each chair. Mostly seniors with the odd younger person. No children, but one guy in his 30's who acted like a child and insisted on everyone knowing what music he had on his phone and how well he could sing. After much disruptive behaviour, he finally left after a 6hr+ wait and not seeing anyone.

People are rarely called in. Meanwhile I can see, just out of view of most people in the waiting area, that ambulances are bringing in gurney after gurney of folks who look in a bad way. Police bring in some kid with his hands tied behind his back, who looks like every single perp you've ever seen on COPS. No shirt, no shoes, and not much pant material.

Every now and then someone gets to go behind the magic doors to the second waiting area. I get my turn sometime around 10:00. Myself and a bunch who have been there as long as I have are directed to the smaller waiting area, where we wait. No food services, or even vending machines are available or open, so folks are a little grumpy. Nowhere nearby to walk to.

After being directed to the examining room and handed a smock to change into, I wait for another 90 minutes or so until a doctor comes in to see me. The staff are clearly busy. The wait has nothing to do with anyone just farting around. Meanwhile, the main emergency waiting area keep filling up, not emptying out in any visible way. Doc does a quick exam, and ultrasound. Can't see anything but books me for a more formal ultrasound on Monday.

What's my point? Many of the people producing the wait could have been at a family doctor's office or walk-in clinic, but emergency is the only place that is obliged to see them, so emergency is packed....AND slow as a result. I salute the patience of all who work there.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Sounds like a good time.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

What about your last blood work up. Throw in a liver panel. That can be done in a phone consult with your Doc. Just did it a while go. Call for app't....show up....cute little vampire takes a pint....two weeks later talk to my Dr. about the results. Of course this could be mitigated by the level of pain.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

They did a blood work-up at the hospital, and apparently the results were good. So I don't know what the hell it is, but you know when something just doesn't feel right in your body - "it's not supposed to do that!". And when you have pain in a very specific area and nowhere else, you want to know what's causing it and if there's something you can do to mitigate it. I'm not worried, but I would like to be able to drive and sleep and sneeze without feeling a jab. Hopefully the ultrasound will pin something down. And thankfully, I'll have an appointment, rather than a 9-1/2hr wait.

Of course, now when I am asked, as a screening question "Have you been around someone with Covid-19?", I have absolutely no idea. Vaccination rates in the city are high, so the odds are good that I haven't. But the folks in emergency didn't all come in because of a sprained ankle or shooting pain in their hip, and the per-square-foot density of people is a whole lot higher than at Loblaws, Home Depot, or even Giant Tiger.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

what ever is wrong, i hope it gets cleared up quickly. 

getting treatment up there (at least in toronto) was never fast to begin with, although i never waited more than 6 or 7 hours. 
you never really knew if you had been in contact with an infected person ever. you can say "oh i don't recall being around anyone who was acting sick" but you know that doesn't really tell you anything.

they put me on a waiting list to fuse my ankle. the wait began at 3 years. after those 3, i was told to wait 5 more. after those 5, i was told to wait 7 more. the entire time i was up there, i have 2 hernias. i would always ask the docs about fixing them, but they never would. they always said "oh, that surgery rarely works, so we don't do it. well, now they're starting to let go. i go for an ultrasound and some other lab stuff on tues. even here, things are different now. i have super good insurance through the local. but if i call my regular doc for an appointment, it''s 5 weeks out, and i don't actually get to see him, but rather a nurse practitioner. all the doctors offices operate this way now. i switched docs, but all i gained was quicker service. i still don't get to see a real doctor. things are different everywhere now. here. there. and everywhere else. what's that about the only constant, is change?


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

I hate going to the doctor. So far my visits with my family doctor has been almost on time. I also won't go to the emergency unless I'm dying. Too scared of all the sick people in there.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

I went to Kingston emergency by ambulance about a month ago for chest pains that turned out _not_ to be a heart attack. Took about 20 hours of triage and tests etc. to figure that out. Very jangly place. The two drug ODs who came in were the worst. Just imbeciles yelling and hollering "me me me." The staff were great and helpful and infinitely patient. I came out with something like low-level ptsd.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

I wait but it seems for some things it has sped up quite a bit from 20 years ago. Things like scans and appointments with specialists, some surgeries.


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## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

cheezyridr said:


> what ever is wrong, i hope it gets cleared up quickly.
> 
> getting treatment up there (at least in toronto) was never fast to begin with, although i never waited more than 6 or 7 hours.
> you never really knew if you had been in contact with an infected person ever. you can say "oh i don't recall being around anyone who was acting sick" but you know that doesn't really tell you anything.
> ...


You story and others here so far are exactly why I have gone to the USA on two separate occasions to see specialists and have treatment there. There will be a third occasion in the near future to have lower back fusion performed by a,... wait for it,... top notch Canadian Orthopedic surgeon who moved from Ottawa to the USA because he could not get enough operating room time in Canada to reach the level of surgeon he is aspiring to become.

I'll be utilizing Health Canada Form 4520 - 84E - Out -of-Country (OOC) Health Services program.The Socialized Medicine we have seems to have been crumbling for a couple decades or so and will probably continue to do so as the burden of a growing population advances. I would gladly take the opportunity if ever available to pay for a private healthcare plan to ensure I and my family can depend on a system that provides health services _immediately_ when serious/life threatening illnesses occur are required,... not in 1,3, 5 or 7 years after diagnosis.

Currently I do not believe the majority of Canadians are getting a fair return on their life long Social Healthcare investment,... which should be totally unacceptable by every tax paying Canadian.


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## Fred Gifford (Sep 2, 2019)

mhammer said:


> This is NOT any sort of political statement, nor is it complaint. Just a description of what is.
> 
> Yesterday, I spent from 8:30AM to 12:45AM trying to get a consult. I had called our family doctor's office on Thursday to try and get an appointment, but she's not "seeing" patients, just doing phone consults, so the office recommended a walk-in clinic instead. We have a bunch of Appletree clinics within a short distance of us. Two were entirely booked and a third allowed one to register for appointments, starting at 3:30, with one person allowed in at a time. I waited in line for 20min, outside in the searing heat. A guy two people behind me had two preschool-age kids with him. I couldn't wait any longer and didn't want to make that guy wait, so I left, figuring I'd return in the morning when it would be cooler.
> 
> ...


my wife has gone to Appletree for years, I hate the place with a passion, it's a friggin' joke ... a bad one


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Hospital Burden and the Animals


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

You're in Ottawa, right? For a much, much faster ER experience, go to Kemptville or Carleton Place. Less waiting. That is if you can make the drive.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Rollin Hand said:


> You're in Ottawa, right? For a much, much faster ER experience, go to Kemptville or Carleton Place. Less waiting. *That is if you can make the drive*.


Good idea, and appropriate caveat. We live a 5min drive from the hospital. It's not just whether one has a car or not, but also whether one feels up to such drives. And sometimes you don't. When I had a heart attack in '99, I drove myself to the hospital, figuring I'd be pissing away $10 on parking, only to have them say 5hrs later "It's nothing. Go home." My guitar-brother cousin was experiencing some cardiac symptoms. He was supposed to go out for a bike ride with the family in Gatineau Park. He told them "You go on ahead. I have some work to finish up, so I'll catch up with you in the car in a bit." He tried to, but had to pull off the road, where his own heart attack felled him. So, sometimes the extra drive can be worth it, and sometimes not. In my case, I came in to ER, said I thought I was having some cardiac symptoms, and within half an hour I was in a smock, on a gurney, in ICU with a bunch of tubes in me. You get VIP service when it's somethng like that. In the case on Friday, it was more "It hurts when I do this". I'm surprised no one there used the old Henny Youngman punch line "So don't do that".

Part of the bottleneck at hospital ERs is the large proportion of new Canadians who simply don't have a family doctor they can turn to. I know our own family doctor has a practice with three others, and their office door and website says explicitly they are NOT taking any new patients. For most new Canadians, the walk-in clinics ARE their "family doctor", so if walk-in clinics won't/can't take them, ER is their only choice. I would imagine that smaller towns tend not to have such large populations of under-serviced immigrants, so they are less of a contributing factor to ER build-up.

Again, NOT any sort of policy/political assessment; just an explanation of how things can be different from this place to that.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

Yeah, I'm not sure what is going on with deployment in the current situation but it's not working well. I had some heart/chest pain/fatigue issues that landed me in the ER by ambulance a couple months ago. Got there at midnight, place was almost empty apart from maybe 5 people waiting. It seemed like only one or two triage staff were present.
I had an EKG done within a couple of hours and was told blood work would follow. I left at 6:00 after overhearing the wait was 9 hours. 
Outside of the Emergency dept, I was taken care of fairly quickly. I had blood work, chest X-ray done within a couple of days and then full stress test at the Heart Institute after a bit of follow up on my own behalf. All is fine and the trouble I had was likely due to a stronger than normal reaction to the Pfizer vaccine. This was before there were few reports of Myocarditis. Not saying I had this but it was a month of fatigue and chest pains after my first dose. 
ER wait times have never been good. @mhammer is correct IMO about the system currently funneling too many to the hospital when much could be mitigated at the clinics or family medicine. However, if you are in family medicine, you have to weigh the risk that comes with in person visits with the greater good in a fully functioning healthcare system. I'm not qualified to make a judgment call on that but a couple of months ago I would've appreciated an in person visit with my doctor. If you have multiple issues to cover it's much more difficult to track everything over the phone or even zoom.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Zoom makes everything look bigger.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

In BC I have had the complete opposite experience. Three years ago I went for an eye exam to get new glasses. I was told I had high pressure in my eyes and was referred to an ophthalmologist. I had an appointment two weeks later. He prescribed some drops and setup a follow up appointment. After a couple of months of tests and trying different drops it was determined I was allergic to all the drops and they weren’t working. I was referred to a surgeon. I had an appointment a week later at VGH. After a few tests I was scheduled for surgery a month later. The delay was because of Christmas. I had the surgery on my right eye then COVID hit. The surgery didn’t go well and I had weekly visits to VGH during COVID restrictions. They needed to perform the same surgery on my left eye but until I had decent sight in my right eye I wouldn't agree to the surgery. They scheduled me for cataract surgery on my right eye. Once that decision was made the surgery was scheduled for a week later. The cataract surgery was a success and I was scheduled for the trabeculectomy surgery. Long story short over a three year period I spent a lot of time in the medical system. I never once felt like I had to wait unnecessarily. Even with COVID restrictions in place I had prompt service. I had three surgeries with no waiting. My wife recently went to the local emergency room. She did have to wait for a couple of hours. She was referred to local specialist who saw her that day. After a couple of daily visits to monitor her condition it was determined she needed to see a different specialist in Vancouver. She saw him that afternoon. I don’t know what is happening in Ontario but my experience in BC has been very good. If it is something that is time sensitive treatment is immediate. If it is not time sensitive you may have to wait but the wait time is not unreasonable.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

My experience in Ontario has traditionally been very much like your own, Kerry. Fortunately, I have not had reason to avail myself of it these last two years, apart from phone "checkups" with our family doctor and going for bloodwork, preparatory to those checkups. This most recent use was an exception, but a conspicuous one nonetheless. I hope it has given responsible parties pause for thought as to how to make handoffs more seamless, efficient, and hopefully cost-effective. Maybe it's time for medical schools to start offering language training in minority languages, such that immigrant populations - especially seniors - are not solely dependent on those few individuals from their ethno-linguistic group who decided to go to med school and open a practice in their city or town. Just a thought.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

The only way to control cost is to control access, and that's controlled by having limited services. It won't get better until voters agree that co-pays or a 2nd tier of private services is allowed like in the UK. (IMHO)


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

There has to be something wrong with what we find acceptable these days. I could call the emergency vet's right now and have my dog on the examination table within 20 minutes.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

allthumbs56 said:


> There has to be something wrong with what we find acceptable these days. I could call the emergency vet's right now and have my dog on the examination table within 20 minutes.


But you pay the bill. Health care is free and open access for anyone.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

mhammer said:


> Maybe it's time for medical schools to start offering language training in minority languages ..


Dumb as a bag of hammers.

Yeah, med school is a cruise vacation. Students have lots of time to study obscure dialects. Anatomy and physiology can be learned on the job so drop that from the curriculum in favour of language courses.


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## Jimmy Fingers (Aug 17, 2017)

tomee2 said:


> But you pay the bill. Health care is free and open access for anyone.


I don't understand why Canadians feverishly protect the poor health system we use. It is broken and dangerous. 12 hrs in a waiting room because Jimmy the hobo and bill the hobo are in for a cold night and free lunch. I have two son in laws that are police officers and 1 daughter who is a nurse. Stories of abuse and over use of the "free" system are absolutely ridiculous. 
Give me back all the taxes I pay in every way that goes to health care and I would be glad to spend it on proper insurance. My wife has had to use the US system a couple of times. Absolutely no comparison between the two.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Careful, now. We're straying into political territory, which I'd rather avoid. Like I said, I wasn't trying to complain, merely describe the state of things, foisted on us by the need to keep family doctors and staff safe, while still providing the health services needed. As for differences between vet and human health care, remember Chris that nobody's pet is ever going to self-refer ("Doc, I don't know what's wrong. I've never had this difficulty coughing up a furball before."), so the sheer volume is going to be much lower. I've waited at an animal hospital before, and the lineup was NEVER as long as what I witnessed on Friday...or on previous visits to the walk-in clinic in pre-pandemic times, for that matter.


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

allthumbs56 said:


> There has to be something wrong with what we find acceptable these days. I could call the emergency vet's right now and have my dog on the examination table within 20 minutes.


The care model for pets is different. An emergency vet call/visit is fully at your own expense, usually at a premium rate.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I'll bet you it would be much easier to get on an open stage, or get through on an open-line call-in show, if you had to pay for it. Money has a way of shortening line-ups for anything and everything.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

Trying to keep politics out of this conversation is impossible. I notice the majority of the posts with complaints are from Ontario. Your government has a lot to do with the problems you are experiencing. In BC despite the pandemic wait lists are way down. We still have wait lists but the government has pumped a lot money into health care to reduce them. Different government priorities different results.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I suspect that the "provincial distribution" of complaints has more to do with how many members are from Ontario, rather than anything attributable to politics. Canadians complain about health care the way grandparents complain about "kids today".

There was a guy waiting in emergency the other night who was a royal pain in the ass. I kept waiting for security to be called. The guy insisted on talking loudly, playing his music loudly (anyone for loud distorted Harry Belafonte?), singing loudly, and complaining for all to hear that all he wanted was a letter and that "all it would take was five minutes"; his five minutes apparently being more important than anyone else's, including the 103 year-old man seated near me whose daughter thought he was having heart issues. The guy kept threatening to leave and it was a blessed relief when he finally did. Staff seemed to know him by name, so I gather he is a "regular". We hear bitching from the people waiting, but the folks doing the actual work just do the work. and keep their complaints to themselves. They're not represented here very much.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

Kerry Brown said:


> Trying to keep politics out of this conversation is impossible. I notice the majority of the posts with complaints are from Ontario. Your government has a lot to do with the problems you are experiencing. In BC despite the pandemic wait lists are way down. We still have wait lists but the government has pumped a lot money into health care to reduce them. Different government priorities different results.


Hey look, I'm glad for you that your experience has been positive but it's not the same across the board in B.C. I have seen some contradictory experiences from elder in-laws in need of surgery for hip and knee and other things. My wife and her sister have had to constantly advocate on their parent's behalf. The publicly funded system has challenges everywhere.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

I had a heart attack in March. Paramedics here within 5 minutes; at Kingston hospital about 20 minutes later (it's a half hour drive normally) and on the table as quickly as they could get me in place -- maybe another 5 minutes and they were running a tube into my wrist. Smokin' fast and, thankfully, effective.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

zztomato said:


> Hey look, I'm glad for you that your experience has been positive but it's not the same across the board in B.C. I have seen some contradictory experiences from elder in-laws in need of surgery for hip and knee and other things. My wife and her sister have had to constantly advocate on their parent's behalf. The publicly funded system has challenges everywhere.


I agree the health system everywhere has problems. In BC shortages of surgeons in some specialties has caused long waiting lists. The time on those lists has decreased but the times are still unacceptable. I didn’t vote for the current government and I don’t like many of their policies. Health care is one place they have done a good job. Could they do better? Of course they could.

Like many others here I am very grateful for the patience of health care workers. I spent too much time as a patient over the past three years. I was always treated with dignity and care. I saw some patients who I would have told to F off treated with the same compassionate care I was. The health care workers are amazing.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

I guess I'm lucky I live in a small town. Yes it has been phone consults with my doctor re blood pressure meds and nerve pain damage from carpal tunnel syndrome, but it is reasonably quick. The ER in town is pretty good too, I've never waited more than 2 hours. I'm writing this from a hotel in Newmarket because I'm having my wrist surgeries in the morning, originally (pre covid) it was a 6 month wait, Covid stretched it to almost 2 years.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Jimmy Fingers said:


> I don't understand why Canadians feverishly protect the poor health system we use. It is broken and dangerous. 12 hrs in a waiting room because Jimmy the hobo and bill the hobo are in for a cold night and free lunch. I have two son in laws that are police officers and 1 daughter who is a nurse. Stories of abuse and over use of the "free" system are absolutely ridiculous.
> Give me back all the taxes I pay in every way that goes to health care and I would be glad to spend it on proper insurance. My wife has had to use the US system a couple of times. Absolutely no comparison between the two.


I agree. I'm not defending it, I fully think there should an access fee per visit as minimum.

The trouble with the US system is if you don't have insurance, or good insurance, and get cancer or other serious condition, the bills can be horrendous. Plenty of news articles on NPR about the hospital bills after being seen for pretty ordinary stuff, like a broken arm, that ended up in 5 digit Bill's. All driven by for profit hospitals and insurance providers.

Somewhere between the for profit US system and the 'free' system up here is some sort of goldilocks system. I wish someone would find it, then somehow get the public here to accept it.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

tomee2 said:


> I agree. I'm not defending it, I fully think there should an access fee per visit as minimum.
> 
> The trouble with the US system is if you don't have insurance, or good insurance, and get cancer or other serious condition, the bills can be horrendous. Plenty of news articles on NPR about the hospital bills after being seen for pretty ordinary stuff, like a broken arm, that ended up in 5 digit Bill's. All driven by for profit hospitals and insurance providers.
> 
> Somewhere between the for profit US system and the 'free' system up here is some sort of goldilocks system. I wish someone would find it, then somehow get the public here to accept it.


Yes a fee to discourage sick people with no money from accessing heath care would let people with money access heath care much easier.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Discussion about a class of people being discouraged from seeking health care because they have no money is political content; this thread should be locked and deleted as so many other political threads have been. It is not something that belongs on a guitar website.


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## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

tomee2 said:


> But you pay the bill. Health care is free and open access for anyone.


Free!?,... I break out into a belly laugh every time I hear a Canadian use the words "Free Heathcare".
I'm fairly confident that we have all been paying a lifetime for a system that once worked but is now in disarray.

Need a broken bone set, stitches, bloodwork, MRI, Cat Scan, X-ray,... ok, they can pull that off in a timely manner,... sometimes.

Need quick treatment for a serious illness in order to increase the percentage of your survival rate and full recovery before you turn the corner and start circling the drain,... shit out of luck,...a high percentage of the time.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

mhammer said:


> This is NOT any sort of political statement, nor is it complaint. Just a description of what is.
> 
> Yesterday, I spent from 8:30AM to 12:45AM trying to get a consult. I had called our family doctor's office on Thursday to try and get an appointment, but she's not "seeing" patients, just doing phone consults, so the office recommended a walk-in clinic instead. We have a bunch of Appletree clinics within a short distance of us. Two were entirely booked and a third allowed one to register for appointments, starting at 3:30, with one person allowed in at a time. I waited in line for 20min, outside in the searing heat. A guy two people behind me had two preschool-age kids with him. I couldn't wait any longer and didn't want to make that guy wait, so I left, figuring I'd return in the morning when it would be cooler.
> 
> ...


What a nightmare. Sounds like they’re modeling themselves after the airports. Sorry you had to go through that.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

What strings will make me play better?


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

How can I get the violin tone?


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Are JJ tubes the best?


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

One sensible comment and then back to the stupidity.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

mrmatt1972 said:


> I guess I'm lucky I live in a small town. Yes it has been phone consults with my doctor re blood pressure meds and nerve pain damage from carpal tunnel syndrome, but it is reasonably quick. The ER in town is pretty good too, I've never waited more than 2 hours. I'm writing this from a hotel in Newmarket because I'm having my wrist surgeries in the morning, originally (pre covid) it was a 6 month wait, Covid stretched it to almost 2 years.


Best wishes for improved hand mobility. When Les Paul was in a car accident he asked the doctors to set his broken arm in a position such that he could still play. Maybe you can ask the surgeon to set your wrist "for shred".

I've requested that this thread not go political, and that seems to go unheeded. I've said my piece, so if this gets deleted, so be it. The pandemic has resulted in many of us not being able to do things the way any of us would want, and that includes our jobs, which also includes health professionals. All the more reason for folks to cooperate and help in making this all go away.

And some rain out BC way would be nice, too.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

Midnight Rider said:


> Free!?,... I break out into a belly laugh every time I hear a Canadian use the words "Free Heathcare".
> I'm fairly confident that we have all been paying a lifetime for a system that once worked but is now in disarray.
> 
> Need a broken bone set, stitches, bloodwork, MRI, Cat Scan, X-ray,... ok, they can pull that off in a timely manner,... sometimes.
> ...


And yet we have one of the best life expectancy in the world. Average for both sexes is 4 years longer than in the United States- almost 5 years longer if you are male.
The USA sits just behind Cuba. 
The system has problems but it seems to keep people healthy enough to live a reasonably long life.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

mhammer said:


> Good idea, and appropriate caveat. We live a 5min drive from the hospital. It's not just whether one has a car or not, but also whether one feels up to such drives. And sometimes you don't. When I had a heart attack in '99, I drove myself to the hospital, figuring I'd be pissing away $10 on parking, only to have them say 5hrs later "It's nothing. Go home." My guitar-brother cousin was experiencing some cardiac symptoms. He was supposed to go out for a bike ride with the family in Gatineau Park. He told them "You go on ahead. I have some work to finish up, so I'll catch up with you in the car in a bit." He tried to, but had to pull off the road, where his own heart attack felled him. So, sometimes the extra drive can be worth it, and sometimes not. In my case, I came in to ER, said I thought I was having some cardiac symptoms, and within half an hour I was in a smock, on a gurney, in ICU with a bunch of tubes in me. You get VIP service when it's somethng like that. In the case on Friday, it was more "It hurts when I do this". I'm surprised no one there used the old Henny Youngman punch line "So don't do that".
> 
> Part of the bottleneck at hospital ERs is the large proportion of new Canadians who simply don't have a family doctor they can turn to. I know our own family doctor has a practice with three others, and their office door and website says explicitly they are NOT taking any new patients. For most new Canadians, the walk-in clinics ARE their "family doctor", so if walk-in clinics won't/can't take them, ER is their only choice. I would imagine that smaller towns tend not to have such large populations of under-serviced immigrants, so they are less of a contributing factor to ER build-up.
> 
> Again, NOT any sort of policy/political assessment; just an explanation of how things can be different from this place to that.


In my case, it was bursitis in the knee (or so it turned out -- all I knew was that O couldn't walk). After being told by my family doctor to got ot the ER, I waited 5 hours at the QCH, only to be told I would be waiting another 4 hours. I went home, slept, got up, and drove to Kemptville the next morning, and was in and out in 20 mins.

To be fair, I have been in and out quickly in other circumstances.

I agree that the ability to make the drive is a factor, as I noted. If I ever have cardiac symptoms, I am not going to Kemptville.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Midnight Rider said:


> Free!?,... I break out into a belly laugh every time I hear a Canadian use the words "Free Heathcare".
> I'm fairly confident that we have all been paying a lifetime for a system that once worked but is now in disarray.
> 
> Need a broken bone set, stitches, bloodwork, MRI, Cat Scan, X-ray,... ok, they can pull that off in a timely manner,... sometimes.
> ...


Free and open access. Of course it's not free. No one is charged any money to visit a dr or hospital in Canada. People are so used to the free bit that they complain that parking isn't free, so hospitals have to put up signs that say parking fees go to the hospital charity. 
US insurance usually has a copay system. 
That ALL I was stating. Not defending it or justifying it.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

player99 said:


> Yes a fee to discourage sick people with no money from accessing heath care would let people with money access heath care much easier.


I don't disagree with that, and that's always the arguement, and it's very justified, but how many sick people truly don't have any money? Yes some do, but there are solutions to this. Other countries found ways to have visit payments without limiting access to the poor or homeless. 
Another solution is what the UK did and that's to allow paid access to quicker care, and free to everyone else. But they're used to having a class system, we are not so that's not a popular idea here either, so we're going to live with free access for all and manage total costs by limiting access for all.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Wardo said:


> Dumb as a bag of hammers.
> 
> Yeah, med school is a cruise vacation. Students have lots of time to study obscure dialects. Anatomy and physiology can be learned on the job so drop that from the curriculum in favour of language courses.


Its unnecessary bc most of our Dr's seem to be coming from foreign countries anyway...at least around the GTA. I cant remember the last time I saw a Canadian born and educated Dr. 
So, pretty sure most of them speak other languages.


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## Jimmy Fingers (Aug 17, 2017)

tomee2 said:


> I agree. I'm not defending it, I fully think there should an access fee per visit as minimum.
> 
> The trouble with the US system is if you don't have insurance, or good insurance, and get cancer or other serious condition, the bills can be horrendous. Plenty of news articles on NPR about the hospital bills after being seen for pretty ordinary stuff, like a broken arm, that ended up in 5 digit Bill's. All driven by for profit hospitals and insurance providers.
> 
> Somewhere between the for profit US system and the 'free' system up here is some sort of goldilocks system. I wish someone would find it, then somehow get the public here to accept it.


Agree with everything said. One caveat....those who couldn't afford the $75 (hypothetical) would still wait the 12 hrs. Still be seen but the extra money goes to a different stream. There are lots of people who call an ambulance instead of paying for a cab to access free healthcare with nothing more than the sniffles. Many times in London...no ambulances because they have to stay with patients until they are seen in emergency department. It's a sad state of affairs until someone has the nuts to fix it. 
My daughter left the emergency department just for those and many other reasons. 
Unfortunately my son in laws, the police officers, spend many a shift baby sitting drug addicts, mental health patients, etc. 
Sorry folks, it is the sad truth.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

Diablo said:


> . I cant remember the last time I saw a Canadian born and educated Dr.


I'm pretty sure you have to be educated here or have at least done part of your training here to be able to practice in Canada.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

tonewoody said:


> The care model for pets is different. An emergency vet call/visit is fully at your own expense, usually at a premium rate.


I would gladly pay the same $180 premium if I could be seen in 20 minutes at the Emerg


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

zztomato said:


> I'm pretty sure you have to be educated here or have at least done part of your training here to be able to practice in Canada.


I think the medical degree is foreign, from certain countries only, but the residency is done here in the hospitals. Our savings, as a nation, is the reduced cost of running the medical schools. I guess in a sense we've "offshored" medical education?


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> I don't disagree with that, and that's always the arguement, and it's very justified, but how many sick people truly don't have any money? Yes some do, but there are solutions to this. Other countries found ways to have visit payments without limiting access to the poor or homeless.
> Another solution is what the UK did and that's to allow paid access to quicker care, and free to everyone else. But they're used to having a class system, we are not so that's not a popular idea here either, so we're going to live with free access for all and manage total costs by limiting access for all.


That's how the "lowest common denominator" works - the only way to be equal is if everybody is at the bottom 😢


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

zztomato said:


> I'm pretty sure you have to be educated here or have at least done part of your training here to be able to practice in Canada.


Depends. A former colleague went to work for the Royal College of Physicians and Surgeons, working primarily on developing licensure exams for specialists. One of the things he was tasked with was assessing the particulars of foreign medical-school programs and curriculum in order to identify what gaps existed between those programs and Canadian ones. Identified gaps would guide what sorts of additional training were necessary to be credentialed. The individual still has to probably land an internship and pass licensure exams.

Getting an internship/practicum and residency is difficult, though. A classmate in graduate school was trained as a child psychiatrist in China, and did a post-doc at Brown University in the US. His wife was trained and licensed in China as a pediatrician. Neither could practice in Canada, which is why he was a classmate of mine in the graduate psychology program. She worked as an X-ray technician for several years until she was able to get an internship.

Anyone can get "training". Threading the needle to be licensed is a whole other can of worms.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Diablo said:


> Its unnecessary bc most of our Dr's seem to be coming from foreign countries anyway...at least around the GTA. I cant remember the last time I saw a Canadian born and educated Dr.
> So, pretty sure most of them speak other languages.


Having spent many years reading physicians clinical notes and records practically every day I would tend to agree with you.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Diablo said:


> Its unnecessary bc most of our Dr's seem to be coming from foreign countries anyway...at least around the GTA. I cant remember the last time I saw a Canadian born and educated Dr.
> So, pretty sure most of them speak other languages.


There's whole lotta "other languages".


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

mhammer said:


> There's whole lotta "other languages".


I would argue, its highly likely that languages of the most new canadian patients is also reflected in the languages of the most new canadian Dr's as well.
At least in the GTA, which may be more diverse than Ottawa or other parts of the country.

Additionally, at least some burden of communication should also fall on new immigrants as well, not just those that serve them.

On that note, out where you are, how common are french speaking Dr's? They arent particularly needed around here as much as some more "exotic" languages are, but I would think there would be more demand for them further east, and that there may not be as many francophone Dr's immigrating to Canada?


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Diablo said:


> and that there may not be as many francophone Dr's immigrating to Canada?


 Or none, maybe even?


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

allthumbs56 said:


> I would gladly pay the same $180 premium if I could be seen in 20 minutes at the Emerg


For sure. $180 to jump to the front of the line, sounds like a no brainer, right?

Realistically, the "vet model" of care is based on "you pay for everything". X-rays, tests, medications, operations, overnight stays etc. $180 easily turns into $1,000/$5,000... or in neighboring countries, multiply the number by 10... or (x bankruptcy).

The "real cost" of health care is frightening. Many Canadians are blissfully unaware. For instance, when a Canadian gets cancer, they get treatments, specialized doctors and follow up support, basically for free. Our neighbors to the South, either forgo treatment or can easily end up $500,000 in the hole. The reality of being sick and living with/passing on a massive debt burden to their loved ones is not a healthy situation.

Canada Health system: not perfect by any means. As mentioned by previous posters, it is not fair that hospital emergencies get stuck with the additional workload of babysitting psychiatric patients. It is a bad situation that drags the good people down.
.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Spent another 3hrs at emergency today. The joint was packed even more than Friday night. Long waits do NOT bring out the best in people. And the staff....my word, the MOST patient people in the world. The crap they had to put up with.

And I, apparently, have some gallstones, that I have to put up with.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

The hospital in my town has a no abusing the staff or you're out policy.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

mhammer said:


> Spent another 3hrs at emergency today. The joint was packed even more than Friday night. Long waits do NOT bring out the best in people. And the staff....my word, the MOST patient people in the world. The crap they had to put up with.
> 
> And I, apparently, have some gallstones, that I have to put up with.


Lucky old you! Really nothing to be done?


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## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

Doug Gifford said:


> Lucky old you! Really nothing to be done?


Gallstones don’t go away on their own. If they start to hurt or cause other symptoms, your doctor may decide to remove your gallbladder. This type of surgery is called a cholecystectomy. It’s one of the most common surgeries doctors perform.
About 80% of people who have gallstones will need surgery. My grandfather had this surgery decades ago and had many good years of health afterwards,... he passed away at age 103,... my wife is concerned that she may have to put up with me for that length of time as well as her grandmother passed away at age 98,... looks as if we may both be doomed, lol, ⏳


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Midnight Rider said:


> Gallstones don’t go away on their own. If they start to hurt or cause other symptoms, your doctor may decide to remove your gallbladder. This type of surgery is called a cholecystectomy. It’s one of the most common surgeries doctors perform.
> About 80% of people who have gallstones will need surgery. My grandfather had this surgery decades ago and had many good years of health afterwards,... he passed away at age 103,... my wife is concerned that she may have to put up with me for that length of time as well as her grandmother passed away at age 98,... looks as if we may both be doomed, lol, ⏳


The doctor I finally saw after the ultrasound said that the stones found were not large enough, or my gallbladder affected enough to require or warrant surgery. My wife had hers taken out a few years ago. At least these gallstones are not as bad as kidney stones. Still, very unwelcome visitors.



player99 said:


> The hospital in my town has a no abusing the staff or you're out policy.


Also true of the hospital I was at. The line between "abusing staff" and simply being a pain in the neck is a fuzzy one, though. There was a "couple", for want of a better word, seated near me, that was about as dysfunctional as it is possible to be. The woman would simply not let up on the guy, accusing him of various things and insisting "the doctor said" she could not be away from him for a moment. The scope of his strategy was basically to tell her to shut up and leave him alone. When he tried to get a moment's peace by going to the washroom, she insisted on following him there. I couldn't see, but from the sounds of it, she was going to go into the men's room with him, and he kept trying to stop her. They weren't directing any abuse toward staff, but the not-so-hidden drama was getting louder and upsetting to a lot of the people who had no other choice but to sit near them. Security eventually came and separated the two, leading them off elsewhere. From what I could see and hear, the woman had some sort of personality disorder. The guy was simply socially inept, and seemingly burnt out from dealing with her. I told one of the security staff that I saluted them for their patience. He was appreciative.

Waiting in emergency has more drama and stories than Netflix.


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

2 weeks ago I carved up my leg pretty bad while doing a simple saturday morning dump run. Shorts and sandals are not proper attire for dump runs fyi, even on a blazing hot saturday morning. Broken mirror felt like it just barely touched my shin, I looked down and it was a 10-15 cm gash and flap of skin hanging on my shin. I saw white underneath and managed to hold it together and patch myself up. Guy beside me had given me a hand taping the gauze up and helped me empty the rest of my shit out of my truck. Dump workers were turning white at the sight of my injury. 

Drove myself to GNGH in Niagara, asked how long the wait was (6 hrs) and turned around and drove to Fort Erie urgent care. 2 hr wait was more acceptable, there were about 3 people ahead of me. 2 hrs and 24 stitches later I was outta there and driving back home. I had been to ft erie urgent care once before for repairs and it was definitely worth the 20 min drive to a smaller town for a shorter wait time. If you can make the drive.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Moosehead said:


> 2 weeks ago I carved up my leg pretty bad while doing a simple saturday morning dump run. Shorts and sandals are not proper attire for dump runs fyi, even on a blazing hot saturday morning. Broken mirror felt like it just barely touched my shin, I looked down and it was a 10-15 cm gash and flap of skin hanging on my shin. I saw white underneath and managed to hold it together and patch myself up. Guy beside me had given me a hand taping the gauze up and helped me empty the rest of my shit out of my truck. Dump workers were turning white at the sight of my injury.
> 
> Drove myself to GNGH in Niagara, asked how long the wait was (6 hrs) and turned around and drove to Fort Erie urgent care. 2 hr wait was more acceptable, there were about 3 people ahead of me. 2 hrs and 24 stitches later I was outta there and driving back home. I had been to ft erie urgent care once before for repairs and it was definitely worth the 20 min drive to a smaller town for a shorter wait time. If you can make the drive.


One of the problems with centralizing services into a "Super Hospital" like GNGH and its "Million Square Feet of Care", I guess.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Not that I'm nixing it, but I wonder what sort of staff complement such smaller facilities have, and what sort of increment to cases would result in them turning into 6hr waits. Removing 4 people from the ER waiting area in a large hospital might shave 20min off a 6hr wait but add 2hrs to the wait in a smaller facility. I obviously don't know this for sure, but there is some cases-per-doctor math involved and encouraging people to avail themselves of smaller facilities might eventually work against one.

As always, tell enough people about a great short-cut, and it stops being one, as more people use it.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

mhammer said:


> Spent another 3hrs at emergency today. The joint was packed even more than Friday night. Long waits do NOT bring out the best in people. And the staff....my word, the MOST patient people in the world. The crap they had to put up with.
> 
> And I, apparently, have some gallstones, that I have to put up with.


Glad to hear you're OK, ie nothing too serious.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

As for covid effects on care... I have close family as an MD, in ON, so I asked a few questions. If they see a patient in person that later tests positive for covid, they're closed for 2 weeks. So they screen for covid first and if it's serious enough and you have no covid symptoms, they might see you. But the list of covid symptoms is so long, and abdominal pains are one of them, that most people wont be seen except by phone. 
Once a few of these restrictions are removed, in person visits should pickup. 
At the start of covid they had no PPE and have had to source it themselves for their clinic. In fact patients stole all their hand sanitizers and masks in the first few weeks, after which they closed their doors to phone only for about 8 months.

As for rudeness, our daughter had a temp job at a garden center in May and they hired a security guard because people were getting nasty towards the teenage help staff about wearing masks and if you can believe it, the low quality of the flowers and trees.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Not that I'm nixing it, but I wonder what sort of staff complement such smaller facilities have, and what sort of increment to cases would result in them turning into 6hr waits. Removing 4 people from the ER waiting area in a large hospital might shave 20min off a 6hr wait but add 2hrs to the wait in a smaller facility. I obviously don't know this for sure, but there is some cases-per-doctor math involved and encouraging people to avail themselves of smaller facilities might eventually work against one.
> 
> As always, tell enough people about a great short-cut, and it stops being one, as more people use it.


What was the wait time 50 or 60 years ago when there was a small hospital in just about every town?. How long did it take to get in to see your doctor? How long to have him come to your house?

** edit: I couldn't find any data answering the above - but I did find this article. Apparently 2019 was the worst year for wait times - except they seem to keep getting worse.









Ontario Emergency Wait Times Just Reached A Record June High


Many Ontarians have experienced wait times when it comes to visiting an emergency room in a local hospital. With doctors attempting to see a variety of different patients in a variety of states of health, some less injured patients can sometimes be found waiting long hours to see a doctor...




www.narcity.com





Oh yeah, if you have the choice, best go to Grey-Bruce and definitely avoid my area (Niagara) at all costs.


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## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

Moosehead said:


> 2 weeks ago I carved up my leg pretty bad while doing a simple saturday morning dump run. Shorts and sandals are not proper attire for dump runs fyi, even on a blazing hot saturday morning. Broken mirror felt like it just barely touched my shin, I looked down and it was a 10-15 cm gash and flap of skin hanging on my shin. I saw white underneath and managed to hold it together and patch myself up. Guy beside me had given me a hand taping the gauze up and helped me empty the rest of my shit out of my truck. Dump workers were turning white at the sight of my injury.
> 
> Drove myself to GNGH in Niagara, asked how long the wait was (6 hrs) and turned around and drove to Fort Erie urgent care. 2 hr wait was more acceptable, there were about 3 people ahead of me. 2 hrs and 24 stitches later I was outta there and driving back home. I had been to ft erie urgent care once before for repairs and it was definitely worth the 20 min drive to a smaller town for a shorter wait time. If you can make the drive.


Ouch!,... hope you have a quick and uncomplicated recovery. Had a similar event a number of years ago when I cut my hand wide open on a soup can lid,... yes, it involved an evening of adult beverages and a late night snack, lol.

That scenario of running from hospital to hospital searching for a shorter emergency room wait time is all too common,... unfortunately. I learned the shopping around for a shorter wait time lesson about a decade ago. Now I try to call ahead if possible to find the shortest wait time. Now about 90% of the time I find myself at the smaller hospitals in the area if I or someone in my family needs emergency care rather than going to the larger city centre hospitals.

On a couple occasions I have taken myself or a family member to the small surrounding town hospitals only to have been told that the medical situation required that we should go to one of the larger city centre hospitals. The advantage with that was the ER doctors at the small town hospital call ahead and let them know in the city centre hospital that we were transferring over and explained the medical situation which eliminated the potential lengthy wait times.

However, more times than not the small town hospital emergency department was near empty and wait times are under and hour. Still, this emergency musical chair dance Canadians sometimes have to engage in is unacceptable to me. Perhaps it's time to invest in some new brick and mortar hospital facilities in certain regions of the country.

One such fairly new hospital is the North Bay Regional Health Centre in North Bay, Ontario which I believe opened in 2011. The state of the art 750,000 sq.-ft. hospital has 275 acute, 52 forensic psychiatry and 61 specialized mental health for a total of 388 beds.

I have absolutely no issues with my tax dollars going towards this type of investment anywhere in Canada. These are the types of investments our politicians of every stripe should be implementing,... not the endless perpetual chain of excuses of why it can't be done.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Ninety minutes to see a doctor? Luxury! Pure luxury!

It bears noting - and this is the reason why I started the thread - that current wait times to be seen are a reflection of the siphoning of all patients to the ER, instead of distributing them across multiple services. And while lotsa beds is a wonderful thing, and lying on a gurney in the hallway is not, staff is the bigger issue. I'd rather be on a hallway gurney with a doctor or nurse to treat me than wait for a few days for someone other than the lunch lady to come by in a state of the art bed in a private room.

I'll be curious to see what happens to wait times once things go back to normal. It may be the case that people adopt the mindset of "No fricking way I'm _ever_ going back to Emergency unless my arm gets cut off in a freak chainsaw accident at 2:00AM", and the wait times at walk-in clinics start to go up and up as people flood their waiting rooms.

Hope your leg heals up fast, moose. Careful with that axe, Eugene!


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Ninety minutes to see a doctor? Luxury! Pure luxury!
> 
> It bears noting - and this is the reason why I started the thread - that current wait times to be seen are a reflection of the siphoning of all patients to the ER, instead of distributing them across multiple services. And while lotsa beds is a wonderful thing, and lying on a gurney in the hallway is not, staff is the bigger issue. I'd rather be on a hallway gurney with a doctor or nurse to treat me than wait for a few days for someone other than the lunch lady to come by in a state of the art bed in a private room.
> 
> ...


I love the ER shows on TV - dozens of doctors and a hundred nurses rushing everywhere. Last overnighter I spent in ER there was only one doctor on duty and I think 2 nurses.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> I love the ER shows on TV - dozens of doctors and a hundred nurses rushing everywhere. Last overnighter I spent in ER there was only one doctor on duty and I think 2 nurses.


I had a medical emergency a bunch of years ago while in the States on business. Drove myself to the hospital, which was immaculate, stepped up to the emergency counter, "name, address, problem, do you have insurance?"

"Step right this way"

This was in the middle of the night, around 3:00 AM. I was out by 5:00 AM with a full diagnosis and a copy of all the charts.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

With respect to medical records, charts and such; I order a lot of clinical notes from specialists and general practitioners in ontario; it's like thousands of pages per month and the price they can charge is set by the college yet about once a week I get some joker trying to bill me $400.00 for 20 pages 4 or 5 of which will be his/her copies of my request letter, fax cover and authorisation to release the records etc. They refuse to release records w/out payment first which I would be OK with if they were charging the proper price. We immediately file a complaint to get the records and about a week before the scheduled hearing date the material arrives with an invoice magically reduced to what they are allowed to charge and the hearing is cancelled. This is basically ripping off their own patient because the cost of obtaining records is billed to our file and passed on to the client.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

davetcan said:


> I had a medical emergency a bunch of years ago while in the States on business. Drove myself to the hospital, which was immaculate, stepped up to the emergency counter, "name, address, problem, do you have insurance?"
> 
> "Step right this way"
> 
> This was in the middle of the night, around 3:00 AM. I was out by 5:00 AM with a full diagnosis and a copy of all the charts.


Like I said before, money makes lineups shorter.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

mhammer said:


> Like I said before, money makes lineups shorter.


I should amend that. Depends on who gets and gives the money. If the patient gives the money, the lineups get shorter. If the medical staff _*don't*_ get the money, the lineups get longer, simply because there's less staff to make the lineups shorten. No different than music and bands. Pay for tickets? Band has keyboards, brass, and maybe even backup singers. Band gets a portion of the door? It's a power trio.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> I should amend that. Depends on who gets and gives the money. If the patient gives the money, the lineups get shorter. If the medical staff _*don't*_ get the money, the lineups get longer, simply because there's less staff to make the lineups shorten. No different than music and bands. Pay for tickets? Band has keyboards, brass, and maybe even backup singers. Band gets a portion of the door? It's a power trio.


O a solo act with a whole manangement/marketing team getting their piece.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Like I said before, money makes lineups shorter.


Not sure I understand you, I pay insurance here in Ontario also.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

davetcan said:


> Not sure I understand you, I pay insurance here in Ontario also.


What I meant was that when people have to pay more for health care, that tends to filter out a lot of folks for whom those costs are prohibitive, making the lines shorter.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

mhammer said:


> What I meant was that when people have to pay more for health care, that tends to filter out a lot of folks for whom those costs are prohibitive, making the lines shorter.


I think the solution for Canadian Health care is to focus on providing more GP's and then hopefully get GP type issues out of the "emergency" rooms. Wishful thinking, of course.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

More GPs would be great. Their geographic distribution is a critical element, though. Plenty of people in smaller municipalities can't get a family doctor. And I suppose it goes without saying that not everyone is cut out to be a GP.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

You have to like some of the good doctors we have up here. They could be making 3X the money south of the border. Nurses, of all kinds....well, the ones I have met over the past few years have part time jobs at 2 or more different places because budgetary constraints are preventing medical institutions from hiring them full time (although the heads of the hospitals make really good money and bonuses for saving that money), they also could at least get a steady gig at one place (and probably more money) south of the border too. They are here mostly due to family and such and are just waiting and hoping to get enough seniority to get a full time at one place.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Not helping when we cut their pay, for any reason.

TORONTO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Ontario hospital workers who are predominantly women, are deeply upset that instead of rewarding them for their pandemic work over the last 18 months, the ... is handing them *a $1500 a year wage cut*, now that inflation is on the rise.Jun. 19, 2021

I am posting a link so this information to verify it is not fake news, we are cutting nurses pay in Ontario.









“We Can’t Eat Platitudes or Accept a $1,500 a Year Wage Cut From the Ford Government” Ontario Hospital Workers Say at Saturday, June 19 11 a.m. Virtual Rally


Ontario hospital workers who are predominantly women, are deeply upset that instead of rewarding them for their pandemic work over the last 18 months,



www.businesswire.com


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

player99 said:


> Not helping when we cut their pay, for any reason.
> 
> TORONTO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Ontario hospital workers who are predominantly women, are deeply upset that instead of rewarding them for their pandemic work over the last 18 months, the ... is handing them *a $1500 a year wage cut*, now that inflation is on the rise.Jun. 19, 2021
> 
> ...


Is this how we treat our Hero's. Shameful.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> You have to like some of the good doctors we have up here. They could be making 3X the money south of the border. Nurses, of all kinds....well, the ones I have met over the past few years have part time jobs at 2 or more different places because budgetary constraints are preventing medical institutions from hiring them full time (although the heads of the hospitals make really good money and bonuses for saving that money), they also could at least get a steady gig at one place (and probably more money) south of the border too. They are here mostly due to family and such and are just waiting and hoping to get enough seniority to get a full time at one place.


IIRC sometime in the mid-80's the nurses negotiated a huge increase - like 40% or more. Their top eligible pay went from $45K to $75K overnight. That's when the staffing fun began.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

They're offering the nurses here -3% as well, though when you go look at our sunshine list, by the time you finish 'A' last names, you've seen dozens making $200K+ and many at $250K plus


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I spent several years studying turnover and what gets called "employee engagement" by consultants (surprisingly, or maybe not, organizational psychologists rarely use the term). Consultants will generally define it in terms of what the employer seeks (since that's who is paying them). So its "definition" typically includes a degree of commitment to the organization, expressed in one's productivity and how you throw yourself into your work, and how long you stick with that employer. 

I look at it differently, and link it to theories of burnout. "Engagement" on the part of any worker results from a sense of *justified effort*. That effort could be focus on the work itself, focus on acquiring greater skill and knowledge about the work and/or about the organization, yes sticking around but also self-grooming for positions of greater responsibility, and so on. The answer to the question of "Why bother?" each morning has to be "Because ultimately it's worth it".

What makes it "worth it" will depend on the person, the nature of the job, and organization mandate, and I suppose one's age and situation. For some, remuneration and job stability are the primary reasons for justifying one's efforts. Give someone a little more money and they'll give you their all and their commitment. We know from most studies that jumping ship usually requires at least a 7% difference in pay, but we also know that people will jump ship for _less_ pay if their current working conditions are intolerable.

Public-sector jobs are often, though not always, attached to some collective social mission. Health, education, social work, and public safety/security (police, military, firefighters, paramedics) are the big ones, and public office standing in line behind them. People tend to go into those lines of work because they care about those objectives. They certainly don't seek out _punitive_ wages or working conditions, but the social objectives are important enough to them that, as long as the compensation and conditions doesn't feel punitive, they tend to be reasonably okay with that. What matters in those types of jobs is often the sense that their effort is justified by making progress in the mission they signed up for. That's why they don't quit and go into selling chair-lifts or condo timeshares. You can imagine that if every fire they attended resulted in lives lost and each building totally razed, a firefighter would soon start asking themselves "Why the hell am I putting myself through this?" - the wrong answer to the question "Why bother?". Disengagement would soon be followed by burnout (no pun intended, but noticed afterward).

When ICUs get quickly filled up by patients who didn't need to be there, but for the failure of collective action, and especially when they either die or don't seem to ever get completely well, the attitude of "Nothing I say or do seems to matter anymore" can quickly become the default reply to "Why bother?". A little bit more money can tide you over, but when public benefit is the true goal, lack of any success, and maybe even losing ground in that pursuit because you don't have the resources to tackle it, becomes a motivator to leave, or at least burn out. The effort HAS to be justified, and the justification comes in the degree of success in accomplishing the mission, or at least signs and omens that it _could_ be accomplished eventually.

The irony is that, in a time of greater need for health professionals, the failure of many members of the public and elected officials to *assist* in accomplishing those health objectives that justify staying in the job and giving it one's all, risks eroding the very health care we so desperately need.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

player99 said:


> Not helping when we cut their pay, for any reason.
> 
> TORONTO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Ontario hospital workers who are predominantly women, are deeply upset that instead of rewarding them for their pandemic work over the last 18 months, the ... is handing them *a $1500 a year wage cut*, now that inflation is on the rise.Jun. 19, 2021
> 
> ...


The problem with this post, same as the last one you made, is that it's complete bullshit. They're actually getting a 1% wage increase, not a cut. They're claiming a $1500 "real wage" cut because of inflation. When they were getting 3%/year while inflation was 1% did they offer to give 2% back? My pension, unlike that of a public sector employee, doesn't increase due to inflation, it's not indexed. I don't see anyone stepping up to to raise OAS and CPP to match inflation rates. I don't like it either but when governments go on spending sprees, raise taxes and add things like a carbon tax to everything that moves, then inflation is inevitable.


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## Choo5440 (Oct 24, 2020)

mhammer said:


> I spent several years studying turnover and what gets called "employee engagement" by consultants (surprisingly, or maybe not, organizational psychologists rarely use the term). Consultants will generally define it in terms of what the employer seeks (since that's who is paying them). So its "definition" typically includes a degree of commitment to the organization, expressed in one's productivity and how you throw yourself into your work, and how long you stick with that employer.
> 
> I look at it differently, and link it to theories of burnout. "Engagement" on the part of any worker results from a sense of *justified effort*. That effort could be focus on the work itself, focus on acquiring greater skill and knowledge about the work and/or about the organization, yes sticking around but also self-grooming for positions of greater responsibility, and so on. The answer to the question of "Why bother?" each morning has to be "Because ultimately it's worth it".
> 
> ...


Yep, I have had a number of job offers to go to ICU due to the number of folks leaving.

and this just feeds into the extended wait times in ED. Clients are to flow from ED to inpatients units as needed. If those beds are clogged up, then people spend more time in ED, meaning more waits to open up beds/have people seen.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Choo5440 said:


> Yep, I have had a number of job offers to go to ICU due to the number of folks leaving.
> 
> and this just feeds into the extended wait times in ED. Clients are to flow from ED to inpatients units as needed. If those beds are clogged up, then people spend more time in ED, meaning more waits to open up beds/have people seen.


 Thank you for doing what you do !!!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Listening to a CBC call-in show for Ontario on this very topic right now, and I swear, it's like all the guests and calls are reading from a script I wrote.

Sometimes one likes to be vindicated, and other times you'd like to be dead wrong. It gives me little pleasure to be right, here. But I'll echo Dave's gratitude. We appreciate the sustained dedication in spite of all good reasons to walk out.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

davetcan said:


> I had a medical emergency a bunch of years ago while in the States on business. Drove myself to the hospital, which was immaculate, stepped up to the emergency counter, "name, address, problem, do you have insurance?"
> 
> "Step right this way"
> 
> This was in the middle of the night, around 3:00 AM. I was out by 5:00 AM with a full diagnosis and a copy of all the charts.



Six or seven years ago I had an infection in the outer ankle of my left foot. Me being me, I ignored it so it got much much worse. I had a doctor send me for nursing care and those nurses dressed the wound, measured it (it was tunneling up my leg), and did what they could all the time encouraging me to go to the hospital.

When I could no longer put any weight on it and was almost in tears from the pain I finally went (the pain was excruciating). When the person doing the admitting saw the wound she had me rushed right into emergency. When the doctor came he said "I don't like the look of this" (just what you want to hear from a doctor!) and immediately had me hooked up to IV antibiotics. They also cleaned out the wound (debrieding I think they call it). It turns out I had a strep infection, a form of that flesh eating disease. He told me that if they couldn't get the infection under control using antibiotics they would have to amputate because if the infection went into my lymph nodes or bloodstream I would die. He said the fact that it was tunneling up my leg was not a good sign.

While lying there they came and arranged home care for me. I was discharged after four hours (this from Brampton Civic, one of the most overburdend hospitals in Ontario), with the IV connection still in my arm. A couple of hours later I received a delivery of medical supplies from a specialist pharmacy that only delivers to homes through hospitals, LHINs, etc. A couple of hours after that a nurse showed up. She dressed the wound and hooked my IV connection up to two bags of antibiotics. I was only 5000mg per day of two different kinds, the bags for both being held in a pouch that was strapped over my shoulder like a woman would carry a purse.

The nurses visited daily to dress the wound and change the IV. This went on for a couple of months. After that, treatment went to every second day but had to go back to every day because the infection came back as bad as it had ever been. After a few more weeks of that, they went to every second day again. Eventually it went to every third day, then every fourth, until they were only coming once a week for about a month.

My parents had the same family doctor as me and had been to see him for their own appointments just after I had been in hospital (he had been on vacation prior to me going to emergency so didn't know what was going on with my leg). He called them both into his office and said "you'd better pray for that son of yours, because he's probably going to lose his foot if not his leg". Altogether I had home nursing care for just over nine months. The personnel in emergency and the nurses who came to my house saved my leg.

There is only a small round scar on my ankle now but my foot is fucked. All of the muscles, ligaments, nerves, tendons, bone, etc. were damaged by the infection. They will never repair themselves. I have lost range of motion, my foot/ankle no longer flexes properly, and I have almost constant pain. Whenever I take my dog hiking, I know I am in for two or three days of particularly bad pain afterwards (I took him earlier this week and the foot is still sore). Actually, even on normal grass or pavement long walks aggravate things. My left foot simply cannot handle ice or hard-packed snow because it is too uneven and it lack flexibility now.

But still, nothing was amputated so I will forever be in debt to our hospital system and the people who work in it. To this day though I don't like anyone touching my ankle in any way because I flash back to the pain from all of the procedures I had done over those many months.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

mhammer said:


> More GPs would be great. Their geographic distribution is a critical element, though. Plenty of people in smaller municipalities can't get a family doctor. And I suppose it goes without saying that not everyone is cut out to be a GP.



It has less to do with geography and more to do with people being fucking stupid.

Every year during flu season the TV news shows stories of overcrowded hospitals. They always interview people complaining about the wait, all of whom describe symptoms that have me screaming at the TV because those people could easily have been dealt with by a GP. And if they don't have one, there are walk-in clinics they could go to. But no, these fucking idiots go to the damned hospital buggering things up for the rest of us. And you just _know_ each and every one of them spends the next few days telling everyone they know that they were in the hospital. Idiots.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

colchar said:


> Six or seven years ago I had an infection in the outer ankle of my left foot. Me being me, I ignored it so it got much much worse. I had a doctor send me for nursing care and those nurses dressed the wound, measured it (it was tunneling up my leg), and did what they could all the time encouraging me to go to the hospital.
> 
> When I could no longer put any weight on it and was almost in tears from the pain I finally went (the pain was excruciating). When the person doing the admitting saw the wound she had me rushed right into emergency. When the doctor came he said "I don't like the look of this" (just what you want to hear from a doctor!) and immediately had me hooked up to IV antibiotics. They also cleaned out the wound (debrieding I think they call it). It turns out I had a strep infection, a form of that flesh eating disease. He told me that if they couldn't get the infection under control using antibiotics they would have to amputate because if the infection went into my lymph nodes or bloodstream I would die. He said the fact that it was tunneling up my leg was not a good sign.
> 
> ...


Holy crap, that's quite the ordeal.
How long ago did this happen?


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

mhammer said:


> Holy crap, that's quite the ordeal.
> How long ago did this happen?



As I mentioned right at the start of that post, about six or seven years ago.

On the bright side, they sent so many medical supplies here that I still have a bunch of the non-perishable stuff.


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## Choo5440 (Oct 24, 2020)

colchar said:


> As I mentioned right at the start of that post, about six or seven years ago.
> 
> On the bright side, they sent so many medical supplies here that I still have a bunch of the non-perishable stuff.


Heh, every single time I do laundry, I find loose gloves and alcohol wipes floating around after. 

And glad to hear they saved the leg and foot. Even hampered the way it is, it's light years better than losing parts :/


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

colchar said:


> As I mentioned right at the start of that post, about six or seven years ago.
> 
> On the bright side, they sent so many medical supplies here that I still have a bunch of the non-perishable stuff.


I got so engrossed in the rest of it that I plum forgot that first bit. Thanks for a patient reply.


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## Choo5440 (Oct 24, 2020)

davetcan said:


> The problem with this post, same as the last one you made, is that it's complete bullshit. They're actually getting a 1% wage increase, not a cut. They're claiming a $1500 "real wage" cut because of inflation. When they were getting 3%/year while inflation was 1% did they offer to give 2% back? My pension, unlike that of a public sector employee, doesn't increase due to inflation, it's not indexed. I don't see anyone stepping up to to raise OAS and CPP to match inflation rates. I don't like it either but when governments go on spending sprees, raise taxes and add things like a carbon tax to everything that moves, then inflation is inevitable.


 and regarding this (and staying away from the political side) - what's really tough is seeing the wage increase capped, but then having firefighters and police still get their full increases. It's resulted in a whole lotta wtf amongst nurses I know.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Choo5440 said:


> and regarding this (and staying away from the political side) - what's really tough is seeing the wage increase capped, but then having firefighters and police still get their full increases. It's resulted in a whole lotta wtf amongst nurses I know.


Completely understandable from your POV, and mine actually. When you get to my age there is not much more important than health care


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

tonewoody said:


> For instance, when a Canadian gets cancer,


i saw first hand how they treated my wife's cancer when i was up there. they should be ashamed of themselves for what i saw. 



allthumbs56 said:


> I love the ER shows on TV - dozens of doctors and a hundred nurses rushing everywhere. Last overnighter I spent in ER there was only one doctor on duty and I think 2 nurses.


last overnighter i had was at toronto east general. i had surgery where they put 10 screws and a plate in my right ankle. they put the iv in wrong, and i got no pain meds at all for 6 hours after surgery. i hope no one who reads this can understand that kind of pain



colchar said:


> Six or seven years ago I had an infection in the outer ankle of my left foot


if you are in or near toronto, i know someone there who may be able to help you. when i had my ankle surgery, i could not walk on it. i had to go from the couch to the toilet with a walker. once she began treating me, i was back to work in the shop after a few months. in less than a year, i was climbing ladders again. she treated me for about 3 years, and i still don't have the function i used to, but the pain has been dramatically reduced. i owe my quality of life to her.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Choo5440 said:


> and regarding this (and staying away from the political side) - what's really tough is seeing the wage increase capped, but then having firefighters and police still get their full increases. It's resulted in a whole lotta wtf amongst nurses I know.



Way too many factors to account for to call that an equal comparison. Starting points, etc, I bet their contracts have vast differences.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Guitar101 said:


> Is this how we treat our Hero's. Shameful.



No, that is just the union spin - and I say that as a steward in my own union.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

player99 said:


> Not helping when we cut their pay, for any reason.
> 
> TORONTO--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Ontario hospital workers who are predominantly women, are deeply upset that instead of rewarding them for their pandemic work over the last 18 months, the ... is handing them *a $1500 a year wage cut*, now that inflation is on the rise.Jun. 19, 2021
> 
> ...



Only you could be so stupid as to read a union press release and think it was actually true, and not a severely distorted version of the truth. I bet you believe Ontario's teacher's unions too eh?


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

colchar said:


> Only you could be so stupid as to read a union press release and think it was actually true, and not a severely distorted version of the truth. I bet you believe Ontario's teacher's unions too eh?


I know you seem to be quick to insult people.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

player99 said:


> I know you seem to be quick to insult people.



I wasn't insulting you, I was offering an honest assessment of the stupidity required to believe that a union press release is true.


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## Choo5440 (Oct 24, 2020)

keto said:


> Way too many factors to account for to call that an equal comparison. Starting points, etc, I bet their contracts have vast differences.


Agreed that there are different starting points. But it's a huge slap in the face when it's mandated that everyone needs to cut back, and then exceptions are made for these groups and not nurses. Either say it needs to be done and cap everyone, or say it's case by case. (apologies if this is skewed political)


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Choo5440 said:


> Agreed that there are different starting points. But it's a huge slap in the face when it's mandated that everyone needs to cut back, and then exceptions are made for these groups and not nurses. Either say it needs to be done and cap everyone, or say it's case by case. (apologies if this is skewed political)


People quickly notice lack of parity. Decision-makers at whatever level, from governments right down to parents, are often neglectful of this.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Choo5440 said:


> Agreed that there are different starting points. But it's a huge slap in the face when it's mandated that everyone needs to cut back, and then exceptions are made for these groups and not nurses. Either say it needs to be done and cap everyone, or say it's case by case. (apologies if this is skewed political)



It all depends on how their contracts are worded, and that is down to the individual unions and what they managed to bargain for in past negotiations. There is a police force in Ontario (OPP? Toronto?) in which its member's contract states that they must be the highest paid force in Ontario. So they don't even have to negotiate, they just let all other forces do it and then, legally, their members have to get a pay increase that puts them at the top of the pile.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

You would think that with those who won't take the vaccine (without medical reasons), those who use dangerous, unapproved "alternatives" (Invermectin hospitalizations are on the rise), won't wear a mask, etc. that we would be running out of stupid people. It just doesn't seem to happening though. Seems there is an endless supply of idiots.

Speaking of idiots, I need a smoke.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Jim DaddyO said:


> those who use dangerous, unapproved "alternatives"


At the risk of straying into political territory, the current group of vaccines haven't been fully approved by the FDA either.
They are only authorized for 'emergency use'.
Maybe, many non-vaxxed are waiting for this for safety assurances?
Especially with reports of breakthrough cases, efficacy drop rates six months after second jab etc.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Seems there is an endless supply of idiots.


I have paid little attention to the screeds and confessions which permeate this thread and in particular I have ignored the pedantic wind-baggery of the OP.

However, with respect to your quotation as reproduced above I would maintain that no truer words have ever been spoken.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

cheezyridr said:


> 3)even if you have the vax, they still want you to wear a mask and social distance. what good is the vax at that point?


This is a very common misunderstanding. Vaccines are not all-or-nothing, masks are not all-or-nothing, and immune responses are not all-or nothing. We are always being infected with something - probably a lot of things all at once - but we have enough of an immune response to hold the line, fight it off, and not get sick. That is, we can contract virus and it can replicate to some degree, but the bacterium or virus is prevented from replicating enough to make one sick. The objective is to dramatically reduce the probability of getting infected enough, or producing enough virus, to be ill or infecting others. Yes, there are breakthrough infections, especially with the Delta variant (known to produce a substantially greater "viral load" - virus particles produced - than previous variants), but those jurisdictions keeping track and publishing their numbers will note that well over 90% of Covid hospitalizations (and often over 97%) are the unvaccinated. As the epidemiologists note, vaccination improves one's odds of staying Covid-free enough to stay out of hospital by roughly 30x. I like those odds.

One vaccination reduces the risk, Two reduces it further. Masking drops it a bit more. Depending on the type of mask, more for others than for oneself, but the variants come about because people spread the virus to each other, so anything that prevents spread also reduces the probability of a new variant emerging. Let the damn thing know it has no home whatsoever in the community.

Buy one lottery ticket, you might win something. Buy ten tickets, your odds improve. Buy 100 and your odds get pretty good. Vax and mask is like buying a few hundred tickets. The "prize" is continued health.

I have no great love for "big pharma", but the odds of anyone developing a suitable vaccine in their garage, in the time frame everyone was hoping for, and in the production volumes needed, were slim to none. You don't have to like Gibson's legal department, but irritation at "big guitar" doesn't stop us from appreciating their products. You have to separate your distaste for big business from the sensible thing to do for the safety of yourself and those you love. Once we're all healthy and this pox is just a memory, feel free to go back to hating big pharma for all the right reasons.

NO ONE in any democratic nation is "suppressing news" about side-effects. You might recall that here in Canada, there was even a recommendation *against* the AZ vaccine _because_ of the (still low) risk for side effects. If you think that any country with a full publicly-funded health care system is going to shrug off side-effects of any recommended treatment that might burden hospitals beyond what the virus itself is doing, think again.

If your own personal risk, due to the clotting aspect, warrants in favor of not vaxing (though it is not at all clear if the mRNA vaccines pose any risk of clotting), so be it. But masking and distancing is as helpful now as it has traditionally been for other epidemics. Do what you can to stay virus-free. SOMEBODY has to feed those puppies, bro  .


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Naturally, as more people get the vaccine, the percentage of breakthrough cases will go up. If everyone had the vaccine, all the cases would be breakthrough cases. It's just the way numbers work.
There will likely have to be a booster shot (3rd dose), and maybe more after that. But these meds, like birth control, are not 100% effective, and never are. No vax is like relying on the withdrawal method, 1 dose is like using a condom, 2 doses is like the pill. None is perfect, all have failed their intention, but the better methods are just that...better, not perfect.
As this virus lingers, and the longer it does, the more likely it is to mutate. So it would be prudent to use the best practices we have at hand with the knowledge we have at hand at the moment. That's about all we can do. 
The best minds we have are stymied on this to some extent, but I think they would put out the best advice they can. They're probably confused and frustrated by the fact that some will not listen to that though, and as long as that happens, variants are more likely to pop up.
On one of the original threads on Covid I had mentioned that a severe and almost dictatorial shut down and health guidlines would be the shortest way out of this. Yup, it would have cost a lot, but I think that we would be in a lot better shape now if we all had no choice but to stay home for a few months with severely limited contact and cloistering the country for a while. Being extra vigilant as we opened up to anything that could threaten the population.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

mhammer said:


> .I have no great love for "big pharma", but the odds of anyone developing a suitable vaccine in their garage, in the time frame everyone was hoping for, and in the production volumes needed, were slim to none.


as someone who builds the labs things like that are invented in, i can tell you they are absolutely not invented in someone's garage. the comparison is so far off as to render your point worthy of a pancake bunny, but i will spare you this time 



mhammer said:


> NO ONE in any democratic nation is "suppressing news" about side-effects


you are wrong about that, but for various reasons, some obvious, i will avoid posting the voluminous amount of information to the contrary. it would likely get this thread killed off. the information is out there if you care to look.



Jim DaddyO said:


> On one of the original threads on Covid I had mentioned that a severe and almost dictatorial shut down and health guidlines would be the shortest way out of this. Yup, it would have cost a lot, but I think that we would be in a lot better shape now if we all had no choice but to stay home for a few months with severely limited contact and cloistering the country for a while. Being extra vigilant as we opened up to anything that could threaten the population.


china, australia, (they're actually doing it again right now) and the phillipines tried it, and the results were terrible. by contrast, sweden did almost no mandates at all, and did pretty well in terms of overall numbers.

in any other situation, anyone can readily tell you that panic is the wrong course of action every single time. for reasons i'm not sure about, this time, people seem to strive to remain in a state of fear, and allow that to make their decisions. i can't think of any time in history where panicking was the right move


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I think you misunderstood me, cheezy. My point was that the sort of R&D and production capacity to produce the vaccines was not going to come from anywhere OTHER than big pharma. We don't have to like it, but we do have to acknowledge it.

A distant cousin of mine has refused to get vaccinated, and his rationale seems to be that Pfizer has a history of shady dealings, so he doesn't trust anything from them. His mother told me he has contracted Covid twice. Genius.

I hear about side-effects from reputable sources on a regular basis. Indeed, every bit as regularly as I hear about unexpected long Covid difficulties. The thing is that risk of side effects pales in comparison to the benefits. Electrocution and deafness are side-effects of playing electric guitar. But take the appropriate safety precautions and the benefits of playing electric far outweigh the risks.

Stay well. Like I say, someone has to feed those two puppies.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

cheezyridr said:


> sweden did almost no mandates at all, and did pretty well in terms of overall numbers.


But then you look at Florida and Texas, who are almost mandating no action, and that's Covid central right now with frightening numbers. So, what is the difference between Sweden and Florida/Texas? Something cultural perhaps with differing societal habits?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Actually, Sweden has reported just under 3x as many cases, and twice as many deaths, per capita, as Canada. I don't consider that "doing pretty well".


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

mhammer said:


> I think you misunderstood me, cheezy. My point was that the sort of R&D and production capacity to produce the vaccines was not going to come from anywhere OTHER than big pharma.


that's really obvious this morning, i am at a loss to explain why i didn't see that last night. 

that said, you're right that i don't trust them, because so many things about all this don't make any sense. for example, why are we hearing absolutely nothing at all about research for a true vax, one that is better than the stop gap we currently have? why are therapeutics being suppressed? (i am not talking about invermectin) why aren't we researching them? you'd think if we had anything going in that regard, they would shout it from the rooftops in order to regain some of the credibility they've thrown away with their current and previous behavior. no one can deny there is ALOT of public distrust for the vaxxes we have. being able to better treat the virus makes good sense even before you factor in the distrust people have for the vax, and would definitely have a giant effect on hospital burdens as well as the greater cost to society. this delta variant has been around for a long time, starting in india, if i'm not mistaken. why has no one done anything for this variant specifically?



Jim DaddyO said:


> But then you look at Florida and Texas, who are almost mandating no action, and that's Covid central right now with frightening numbers. So, what is the difference between Sweden and Florida/Texas? Something cultural perhaps with differing societal habits?


number of cases is not important. the number of deaths not due to co morbidities is. asymptomatic spread is a media myth.
i think part of what drives texas' numbers is the huge number of illegals pouring through our borders that are not being tested nor quarantined florida could very well be a cultural thing. florida has always been a bit...different. however, i would point out that they protected their elderly population better than anyone else, right from the start. those being the most vulnerable are not who's driving their current numbers. 
something else i think is a factor - and this is just a hypothesis on my part, i have nothing solid to back this up - is the florida weather and it's effect on behavior, and transmission of the virus. florida is hot and super humid. in the dog days of summer, people tend to avoid the heat by staying indoors in the air condish. people in more temperate zones spend less time indoors during this time, so their numbers would naturally rise in the colder months for the same reason. on top of that, warm and humid air is pretty comfy climate for an aerosol virus. 

i think if we wait a few weeks, we'll see numbers decline sharply as the weather begins to turn.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

mhammer said:


> Actually, Sweden has reported just under 3x as many cases, and twice as many deaths, per capita, as Canada. I don't consider that "doing pretty well".


Swedish politicians admitted late last summer that their response turned out to be a bad idea. Swedes simply stayed home even though businesses were allowed to stay open. Covid spread anyway, as it will.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There's a LOT of medical and science research we don't hear about. It's not "suppressed", just ignored by the majority of news outlets because it's not sexy enough to be clickbait. That's one of the things I like about John Campbell's Youtube channel. He scans the research reports and journals and summarizes the main points in an objective manner. A lot of it is content that _could_ be reported by news outlets but is largely ignored. But then that's true of a LOT of news. You'd think with 24hr news and so many outlets, everything would get covered eventually. But in the fight for eyes and clicks, lots of potential news about a lot of things, especially the nonsensational, gets left on the shelf. I'm sure there is plenty of potential news about multiple sclerosis, muscular dystrophy, and cystic fibrosis, but we don't hear about it. No one is suppressing it. They're just persuaded it doesn't have enough interest to enough viewers/readers to justify publication.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

big pharma is not in the business to cure you, but to keep you as a customer.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

laristotle said:


> big pharma is not in the business to cure you, but to keep you as a customer.


Check your investment portfolio. You might be in the business of keeping people as customers without realizing it.
That said, distinguish between the financial management and board-of-directors side of big pharma, and the people who pursued and graduated from quality programs in pharmacology, microbiology, virology and immunology who were happy to get a job where they were provided with the resources to work towards cures and preventative treatments for diseases. Few, if any, go into the health sciences to do anything other than eradicating misery. Do any of us walk into an L&M because we really really really want to increase profitability for Fender, Gibson, Behringer, Dunlop, et al.? Do we somehow reject any music made because Henry J. got to walk away from Gibson with money in his pocket? And I don't see many people rejecting boner pills because they came from "big pharma". People can get tunnel vision when it comes to causes.

As an aside, I just saw an ad on CNN that looks like it came directly from one of my posts or Youtube comments. It simply said, on an otherwise blank screen: Do you know anyone with polio? Do you know anyone with smallpox? Vaccines work. Get vaccinated.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Jim DaddyO said:


> But then you look at Florida and Texas, who are almost mandating no action, and that's Covid central right now with frightening numbers. So, what is the difference between Sweden and Florida/Texas? Something cultural perhaps with differing societal habits?











As COVID-19 surges in Mississippi, some people are ingesting an unproven livestock dewormer


Between March and this month, Fox News hosts Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity and Laura Ingraham promoted the use of ivermectin as an alternative COVID treatment…




nationalpost.com


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Viral mRNA Found In Organs Of Deceased Man Vaccinated For COVID-19 | Citizens Journal


by: Cassie B. (Natural News) A groundbreaking postmortem study on the corpse of a man who had been vaccinated with an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine prior to his death revealed that every organ in the 86-year-old’s body was infested with spike proteins thanks to the jab. This is according to an article...




www.citizensjournal.us


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## jayoldschool (Sep 12, 2013)

We've strayed far enough from the original topic here to call it a day.


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