# Guitar shape determining sound



## crashaholic (Mar 3, 2010)

I was looking at another thread and someone mentioned that they'd never buy an acoustic with a cutout as they'd never be playing that high up on the neck anyhow and it got me to thinking (and Googling) about how a shape would effect the tone. 
I was under the impression that a cutout has a reason aside from aesthetics and it isn't for playing high op on the neck, instead it is for acoustic shaping and actually tames down some bass response.
It seems from what I've found that everyone agrees that there isn't any difference in sound between Venetian and Florentine cutouts, but there doesn't seem to be any straight answer on the cutout itself (or lack of).
So, without a change in strings or bracing, would my 12 string with a cutout be more bass-heavy or muddy in an equivalent model built of the same woods? 
Not that I'm looking for this, I'm just curious.

Taking that to archtops, do Gibson es150 and es175 sound the same or different? 
Anyone have any thoughts on this?


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## crashaholic (Mar 3, 2010)

nkjanssen said:


> I think that was me. .


Could've been, your post just started me thinking about shapes and woods.

Here's a graph from Breedlove on woods









It makes me wonder where my ash-body guitar fits on that graph.

Personally, I like cut-outs too.
I have an Epiphone ES-175 that I think is the best looking guitar I own. I look at a 150 and it just doesn't appeal to me as much.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

My observation is that it depends more on woods, construction quality, design principles, interior volume, top thickness, and God knows what all else than the presence of a cutaway. One would have to a/b several guitars that were virtually identical except for the cutaway to make even an educated deduction.

That said, I have several high end acoustics without cutaways expressly because I was interested in (supposedly) fatter tone, and only one with a cutaway, because I still need to get up there anyway.

Peace, Mooh.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

Check out this bad boy...Leonard Grigoryan with the Paul Kinny's Stereo Acoustic guitars...

















video here...

Leonard Grigoryan reviews the Kinny Stereo Acoustic Guitar for Gizmag on Vimeo

http://kinnyguitar.com/

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/newinventors/txt/s2486561.htm


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Jimmy .. what are you smokin"... pleeze pass dat dutchie .....

Dang you could pass out at the campfire and have a place to sleep ...


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

I don't know about tone because I've never done a direct comparison between otherwise identical guitars, but it seems to me that acoustic guitars with cutaways generally have less volume. This seems to be more the case with entry-level to mid-level guitars. 

Just my totally unscientific opinion.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

shoretyus said:


> Jimmy .. what are you smokin"... pleeze pass dat dutchie .....
> 
> Dang you could pass out at the campfire and have a place to sleep ...


Ha ha ha...I'm just pointing out that an outrageous unconventionally shaped acoustic guitar still sounds like a "normal" acoustic guitar...albeit...in stereo...!!!...


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## fudb (Dec 8, 2010)

The shape of a guitar, in my experience (whatever that's worth, lol) has far less impact than does the overall construction quality and wood selection. Another major component of any guitar is the neck's mass and resonance. Also the setup.

Most important of all of course is the fingers.


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## Stephen W. (Jun 7, 2006)

The short answer is, yes, body shape can greatly effect a guitars sound. However, as mentioned previously, construction has more of an impact then whether there is or is not a cut away.
As to your other point, reducing the top and total volume via a cutaway will not "tame down" the bass.
For a more in-depth look at this subject please read my friend Mike Doolin's answer page re his double cutaway design.
Double-Cutaway Design Technical Information


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## JHarasym (Mar 27, 2007)

jimihendrix said:


>


Good luck finding a case for that....


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## notjoeaverage (Oct 6, 2008)

Stephen W.

Thanks for the link, confirms my suspicions.

The difference between wether you are playing a Jumdo, Dread, GS, GA, OOO, Parlor, Thinline etc has a direct affect on sound volume and tone is a combination of wood choice and body shape/size. 

Sound is a frequency, a vibration in the strings transfered to the bridge and the top at the lower bout transfered to the air and to our ears. Any section of the top that is rigid absorbs less vibration and therefore transfers less vibration, resulting in less sound. So by inference we can assume the upper bout has only a modest affect on the over all sound transmitted and the presence or abscence of a cutaway has a minimal affect.

So often sound/tone is so subjective and a personal preference, the only time it is truly objective is when displayed on an osciliscope. I think it would take an osciliscope to know for sure.

So to any of you sound engineers or physics students/teachers with access to one please do a test with identical models with and w/out cutaways and answer the question once and for all. If guitars aren't available talk to your local guitar shop and setup a field test, please videotape and post to Youtube.

I only play Cutaways, I don't like the look of a non - cutaway or the restriction on what you can play. I think a big part too is my love of the Les Paul shape, but I do prefer a Venitian Cutaway.


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## Grenvilleter (Dec 22, 2007)

I had the chance to play 2 identical guitars fresh off the "truck" with the diff being 1 was cutaway and 1 a standard dread. Both solid top/lam b&s. My ear could not tell the difference on these 2 never before strummed axes. 
Not sure if time would make a difference however, I certainly hear huge differences between ...say a dread and a 000 style.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Interesting topic

The last time I was in the accoustic room I played and fell in love with the Taylor Parlor guitar, one thing that struck me was the volume that little fella had.
So all things the same with wood, why is this one so much louder than the others?


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

Here ya go: Guitar construction


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## Slowfinger (Jan 1, 2011)

Thanks Wasburned for that great link.
I believe body size affects volume. The misnamed sound hole also affects volume more than tone. The sound hole should be called the air-hole because its' main function is to allow the top to vibrate freely without the dampening effect of inside-body air compression without any hole. For tone, that may be soley up to the wood and strings. Maybe a large body will allow the bass to vibrate more freely. But is that a flabby bass or something tighter with a swifter decay on a smaller top? Perhaps dreadnaughts vs. a full body western style would have a tonal difference caused by the westerns' big round lower bout vs. dreadnaught wider waist and narrower lower bout. Any thoughts? I don't have both to compare.
Just a note on other factors. Firstly, how the guitar is held will affect tone and volume. With the back against your body a certain amount of dampening happens. Likewise for your forearm hanging across the upper portion, and picking hand if anchored around the bridge. Those are major things. IMHO, all other factors being equal, a cutaway should have the least impact on tone and volume.
A luthier I know regularly goes down for workshops at Martin guitars. He said they did blind listening tests on spruce top and maple top guitars. No one could hear any difference and/or guessed the wrong one when listening for the so-called bright tones of a maple top. Goes to show you that visuals have an impact on perception that doesn't translate in the real world. It comes down to (as mentioned already) construction methods and wood quality. The top is really a speaker cone and the more it vibrates the louder the sound created by the strings. Dead strings equal muddy tone. That said, I have an old Dana acoustic (small body) that my sister had when we were teenagers. It sat in a closet for 25 years. Nobody wanted it for 10 dollars at my parents garagesale. So 12 years ago I took it home and found the neck so bad that I turned it into a lap-slide guitar. It still has the same " Black Diamond" strings on it from all those years ago. The tone is terrific and I would despair if one of them broke.


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