# Expensive versus cheap tubes and where to buy them?



## NGroeneveld

Okay - seems like my amp needs new tubes and I've had a look at some sites like tubedepot and amplified parts etc. Big price difference in some of the tubes. 

1. So where is the best place to buy tubes?

2. Now I will not be spending 50 or 100 bucks per tube, but does it make a huge difference? 

3. How about the gold pin tubes?

Thanks!


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## dtsaudio

For the most part I buy almost all my tubes from The Tubestore here in Hamilton. They may not be the cheapest, but they stand by their products. I have a bit of a bias here, but you'll find a lot of guys agree.
As for what to buy, is going to be a debate.


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## StevieMac

The best answer to the question "Are the more expensive tubes worth it?" is: It depends. IMO it really depends on the amp you're using, what you want to accomplish by re-tubing, and what tube types you're planning to replace (preamp, output, rectifier). You mentioned "gold pins" so I'd assume preamp tubes in that case. 

As a starting point then, I'd suggest offering some info on the 3 factors I mentioned (amp, expectations, tube types) and see what comes back to you from here. With luck, you'll get some straight advice & opinion...as opposed to a raging debate on whether tubes actually make a tonal difference. *:^ )*


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## 5732

I have no hesitation recommending thetubestore.com I've ordered from them many times and always fast delivery (to Nova Scotia). The have a value pkg for your ycv50 for about $75...ehx preamp and jj power tubes. Or just mix and match.


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## NGroeneveld

mud_guy said:


> I have no hesitation recommending thetubestore.com I've ordered from them many times and always fast delivery (to Nova Scotia). The have a value pkg for your ycv50 for about $75...ehx preamp and jj power tubes. Or just mix and match.


Thanks - I will prolly get the package deal from them.


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## JCM50

+1 on the TubeStore.com.

Great service and selection. Go by the descriptions on his site. They're pretty accurate from my experience.

In terms of price of the tubes, they're not really a factor in determining whether they'll sound good. What you should know is whether they will work well in your amp and if they're reliable. For example, you want to avoid EHX EL84s in a Vox AC30. JJs are a better, more reliable tube for that amp.


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## TWRC

Another Tube Store recommendation here as well. Like StevieMac says, what are you trying to accomplish? Tube prices obviously vary, but it does depend on what you're looking for (for example: low noise floor, headroom).


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## mhammer

The advantage that the Tube Store has is that they carry what is probably the widest selection of tubes in Canada, and are in a strng position to compare different types/brands in the same amp. They will readily make recommendations for various kinds of amps.


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## NGroeneveld

JCM50 said:


> +1 on the TubeStore.com.
> 
> Great service and selection. Go by the descriptions on his site. They're pretty accurate from my experience.
> 
> In terms of price of the tubes, they're not really a factor in determining whether they'll sound good. What you should know is whether they will work well in your amp and if they're reliable. For example, you want to avoid EHX EL84s in a Vox AC30. JJs are a better, more reliable tube for that amp.



It's a Traynor YCV50 Blue

The tubestore sells a value pack with two JJE34L and three Electroharmonix 12AX7. Cost is 75 bucks. They also sell a 'premium pack' with 2 Winged C SED EL34, and three Tung-Sol 12AX7 for 150 bucks.

I'd rather not spend the large amount right now but I prolly would if it would make a significant improvement in tone.


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## JCM50

NGroeneveld said:


> It's a Traynor YCV50 Blue
> 
> The tubestore sells a value pack with two JJE34L and three Electroharmonix 12AX7. Cost is 75 bucks. They also sell a 'premium pack' with 2 Winged C SED EL34, and three Tung-Sol 12AX7 for 150 bucks.
> 
> I'd rather not spend the large amount right now but I prolly would if it would make a significant improvement in tone.


The JJ EL34L is an allright tube but nothing special. I had them in a 1987x Marshall and one of them blew up (lost its vacuum) after 1 year of off and on use.

the SED =C= on the other hand is my favorite tube in terms of tone and reliability. The set I had lasted a good 10 years before I had to change them. The nice a well defined low end and strong mids, perfect for rock guitar.

For the 12AX7s, the Tung Sols are my favorite. They have a nice, clear tone and they sound great when overdriven. the EHX is a little darker and not as defined IMO.


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## Adcandour

dtsaudio said:


> For the most part I buy almost all my tubes from The Tubestore here in Hamilton. They may not be the cheapest, but they stand by their products. I have a bit of a *bias* here, but you'll find a lot of guys agree.
> As for what to buy, is going to be a debate.


Was that pun intended? Sometimes I just need to know these things (it helps keep me insane).


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## StevieMac

I also didn't realize the price difference was THAT much. I'd likely go with the Value Pack. Now that I think about it, I may have a set of Winged C EL34s that aren't been used. I can check if you like...

Steve

EDIT: Just checked and they're a new pair of Groove Tube EL34s sitting in boxes that are marked "Winged C"...ha ha!


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## NGroeneveld

StevieMac said:


> I also didn't realize the price difference was THAT much. I'd likely go with the Value Pack. Now that I think about it, I may have a set of Winged C EL34s that aren't been used. I can check if you like...
> 
> Steve
> 
> EDIT: Just checked and they're a new pair of Groove Tube EL34s sitting in boxes that are marked "Winged C"...ha ha!


According to the tubestore the Groove tubes are just rebranded tubes that come from the same factory as all the other tubes eg. GT-E34LS is the same tube as a JJE34L. The 
GT-EL34R is the same tube as the Electro-Harmonix EL34

http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/Groove-Tubes


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## parkhead

The tube store is great ... let their reviews be your guide 

Personally I always use new production VS vintage pulls or supposedly NOS ...

#1 I don't think I will be playing on an album scheduled for world wide release
#2 NOS may be pulls disguised as NOS 
#3 without a healthy new tube retail market the tube manufacturers will make other things and stop making tubes 

p


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## StevieMac

NGroeneveld said:


> According to the tubestore the Groove tubes are just rebranded tubes that come from the same factory as all the other tubes eg. GT-E34LS is the same tube as a JJE34L. The
> GT-EL34R is the same tube as the Electro-Harmonix EL34
> 
> http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/Groove-Tubes


Based on the bottle shape, mine appear to be the same as the JJs then (so GT-E34LS). From what I've read there though, the EH34s sound like a good bet at a reasonable price. Order a pair of those and a trio of Mullard 12AX7s and you should be all set...

Steve


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## JCM50

NGroeneveld said:


> According to the tubestore the Groove tubes are just rebranded tubes that come from the same factory as all the other tubes eg. GT-E34LS is the same tube as a JJE34L. The
> GT-EL34R is the same tube as the Electro-Harmonix EL34
> 
> http://www.thetubestore.com/Tubes/Groove-Tubes


I have the EHX EL34s in my JCM800 head and they sound great and have been reliable.


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## nonreverb

A little background on what's left on the market regarding tubes. There were, up until the last 10 or 15 years, five main manufacturers of tubes:

1. EI
2. Winged "C" (formerly known as the true Svetlana)
3. Xpo-Pul (Sovtek and all its derivatives such as Mullard, Genalex, Tungsol, EH, Svetlana)
4. JJ
5. Shuguang

I'm basing my ratings on reliability as to me, that's far more important than a marginally better sounding tube that lasts a month.
For power tubes, 

I'd put EI up at the top. Too bad the factory was basically shut down for good after the war in Yugoslavia.
They can still be had on occasion but are rare....and expensive.

Winged "C" is a great tube although I've seen my share of tube failures with them as well. More so in the last year as the factory has stopped producing audio tubes for the music market. I suspect that what's being sold out there now are the seconds that are part of the existing stock. For example, I got an amp in a couple of weeks ago with a recent set of 6L6's and one of the getters was disconnected and rolling around in the tube. 
Compound that with the fact that they've virtually doubled in price now that they're out of production, and they don't look so good.

JJ is a good brand. Yes they have some failures but I've put many sets in over the years and found the ratio of returns to be satisfactory.
Probably the best EL84 on the market and the most reliable 6V6.

Xpo-Pul This is a tricky one. They've made so many sub-brands that one would have to comment on a case by case basis. Since I haven't used all their brands, it's hard to comment. Suffice to say, the Tungsol seems pretty good so far although they've had problems with implosion due to the flat top glass construction. I haven't seen it myself however, it is documented. 
Not a huge fan of the EH EL34. A knock off of the venerable small bottle Siemens it's a tube that seems to succumb to rattle and in higher power amps, failure.
I like the Sovtek 5881 although I'm NOT a fan the the similar 6L6 (three small round holes through the plates). They sound like crap IMO.

Shuguang Apparently, some of what they're making now is good although it's more of the audiophile stuff. The regular issue Chinese stuff is average at best. Higher than average failures, and microphonics are ever present issues. Priced right but no guarantees that they'll last for long. Particularly in high power amps.

One other thing that must be mentioned in defense of the manufacturers is shipping. Remember, the set of tubes you've just installed in your amp may have traveled 1000's of miles and been handled by several people some of which couldn't care less that they're fragile. It's an unfortunate aspect that can impact the end quality and reliability of the product.


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## smorgdonkey

NGroeneveld said:


> It's a Traynor YCV50 Blue
> 
> The tubestore sells a value pack with two JJE34L and three Electroharmonix 12AX7. Cost is 75 bucks. They also sell a 'premium pack' with 2 Winged C SED EL34, and three Tung-Sol 12AX7 for 150 bucks.
> 
> I'd rather not spend the large amount right now but I prolly would if it would make a significant improvement in tone.


I had that amp before and used the value pack when my tubes started to die. The new ones certainly made the amp sound great after the swap because I was getting accustomed to the sound of the amp as the tubes were getting weaker and weaker.


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## WCGill

Implosions for you!


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## dtsaudio

> Was that pun intended?


No pun intended, but it was a good one.

Nice synopsis nonreverb. A couple of additions though. You will still see the Xpo-Pul tubes referenced as Reflektor from time to time (they were once the same company). Same thing different name. I've also heard some rumblings and read some posts that the Winged C's are still in production. Not true. They have ceased audio tube manufacturer. There are still some excellent Winged C's out there. They had a huge inventory stock pile. But there are some clunkers too. Buy these only from reputable suppliers or you will get stung. The prices are starting to skyrocket too.
The Shuguang tubes are not bad for the money. Their EL34 and 6L6GC are pretty rugged. You will also see the Shuggies labelled Valve Art, and possibly several other brands.


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## Mr Boggie

me love tube store long time


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## Diablo

I once bought a set off an ebay store and they turned out to be gassy, so it'll be tubestore for me from now on.


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## jb welder

I'll agree with what has been said by most here. If you are going to spend a bit more, spend it on the extra surcharge for testing or "burning in", not for some promise of more golden tone.
Reliability and warranty, plus shipping are important factors to consider. Some big distributors will no longer warranty "microphonic" issues. The cost of shipping back defects may be prohibitive, what good is a warranty if you end up spending near as much to ship it back as buying a new tube.
Spending a bit more to source a tube locally from someone you know is good about warranty is worth it.


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## StevieMac

jb welder said:


> I'll agree with what has been said by most here. If you are going to spend a bit more, spend it on the extra surcharge for testing or "burning in", not for some promise of more golden tone.
> Reliability and warranty, plus shipping are important factors to consider. Some big distributors will no longer warranty "microphonic" issues. The cost of shipping back defects may be prohibitive, what good is a warranty if you end up spending near as much to ship it back as buying a new tube.
> Spending a bit more to source a tube locally from someone you know is good about warranty is worth it.


Smart thinking. Reliable tubes that come with some measure of quality assurance is paramount...


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## NGroeneveld

Thanks for all the advice - very helpful


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## blam

I also generally buy from the tube store. 

Interesting read in here on people's favorite tubes. 

I usually use JJ for 12ax7 preamp but mostly because that is what most people seem to recommend. Having said that, I'm not sure I like the way they break up. 

For el34s I've only tried =c='s and felt they sounded pretty darn good.


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## guitarman2

blam said:


> I also generally buy from the tube store.
> 
> Interesting read in here on people's favorite tubes.
> 
> I usually use JJ for 12ax7 preamp but mostly because that is what most people seem to recommend. Having said that, I'm not sure I like the way they break up.
> 
> For el34s I've only tried =c='s and felt they sounded pretty darn good.


The designer of the amp I just bought actually tests all current production tubes to find what he feels is the best match for the amp. In the manual he explains the process he went through and how he feels each tube type impacts the amp. Reading the reviews from the tubestore on the tubes that were put in my amp, they pretty much agree with what Mark Bartel says about them.


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## Wild Bill

Since I actually worked for Canadian Westinghouse tube division, the last manufacturers in Canada, I picked up a few tips from the old hands that were there.

Obviously, quality is a big issue. However, for those who believe that there are tonal differences between different brands of the same tube, I have some things to pass on.

First, choose a tube brand that uses ebony elements to make their grids instead of rosewood. Electrons flowing through the tube will have more sustain.

Second, the tube should be frozen with liquid nitrogen, then wrapped in rabbit fur under a full moon and allowed to slowly return to room temperature while minimizing vibration. The need for this treatment speaks for itself and anyone who didn't already know this must be truly ignorant and should accept this as unquestioned fact.

Third, special attention to the month of manufacture should be paid. Months like April (Aries) or December (Sagittarius) are Fire signs and will have significantly better highs. January is the Earth sign Capricorn. This means a stronger bass. 

Of course, an Air sign like Libra in October will have a more clean, distinct tone.

There is some dispute about tubes made in China. Some purists believe that attention should be paid to the Chinese astrological calendar concerning the month of manufacturer but the majority believe that since vacuum tubes were invented in the West they would follow the traditional astrological factors. Since no one seems to be interested in performing ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC TESTS there is no way to prove this idea one way or the other!

Myself, I worry more about tubes plugging up inside with coarse, country notes from truck driver music. Once a year or so it is a good idea to crank your amp to 11 and play Gerry Doucette's classic tune "Mama Let Him Play Some Rock and Roll". This will blow out any internal accumulations of crap out of them and restore them to their natural good tone.

Wild Bill/Busen Amps


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## guitarman2

Wild Bill said:


> Since I actually worked for Canadian Westinghouse tube division, the last manufacturers in Canada, I picked up a few tips from the old hands that were there.
> 
> Obviously, quality is a big issue. However, for those who believe that there are tonal differences between different brands of the same tube, I have some things to pass on.
> 
> First, choose a tube brand that uses ebony elements to make their grids instead of rosewood. Electrons flowing through the tube will have more sustain.
> 
> Second, the tube should be frozen with liquid nitrogen, then wrapped in rabbit fur under a full moon and allowed to slowly return to room temperature while minimizing vibration. The need for this treatment speaks for itself and anyone who didn't already know this must be truly ignorant and should accept this as unquestioned fact.
> 
> Third, special attention to the month of manufacture should be paid. Months like April (Aries) or December (Sagittarius) are Fire signs and will have significantly better highs. January is the Earth sign Capricorn. This means a stronger bass.
> 
> Of course, an Air sign like Libra in October will have a more clean, distinct tone.
> 
> There is some dispute about tubes made in China. Some purists believe that attention should be paid to the Chinese astrological calendar concerning the month of manufacturer but the majority believe that since vacuum tubes were invented in the West they would follow the traditional astrological factors. Since no one seems to be interested in performing ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC TESTS there is no way to prove this idea one way or the other!
> 
> Myself, I worry more about tubes plugging up inside with coarse, country notes from truck driver music. Once a year or so it is a good idea to crank your amp to 11 and play Gerry Doucette's classic tune "Mama Let Him Play Some Rock and Roll". This will blow out any internal accumulations of crap out of them and restore them to their natural good tone.
> 
> Wild Bill/Busen Amps



Yes I've heard you harp this before Bill. But guys like Mark Bartel who build amazing amps and paying special attention to every nuance at every aspect of design, including speakers, tube types, cabinet design, etc. With his engineering qualifications (as well as many others out there) I would tend to believe there is something to this. 
I also have experimented with different tube types\brands, NOS and current production and have heard the differences from higher gain, lower gain, affect on tone highs, lows, etc. Amp builders who proclaim the differences don't actually sell the tubes. Decisions to buy their amps aren't made based on what brand of tube or whether NOS or current production
You further hurt your credibility by using extreme examples (frozen liquid nitrogen, rabbit fur) to illustrate your argument. 
If you have a technical explanation to backup your opinions as to why you believe what you believe then state it. Don't ridicule those that might have a different opinion than you.


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## jb welder

We know that old/worn tubes will change in their sonic characteristics. If you don't want to call that the "tone" of the tube, that is fine by me. But if the sound can change between new and used (and not just a simple even linear reduction across all frequencies), why couldn't it be different between brands of new tubes? Maybe not huge, but there must be some variation, or tolerance in the specs. And we know that modern tube manufacturers don't care much about the specs anyway. Some tubes are not even the actual type they are labelled as!!!
How about rather saying there is a difference in the tone, we say that some brands are more "pre-worn" than others? :smile-new:


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## StevieMac

StevieMac said:


> The best answer to the question "Are the more expensive tubes worth it?" is: It depends. IMO it really depends on the amp you're using, what you want to accomplish by re-tubing, and what tube types you're planning to replace (preamp, output, rectifier). You mentioned "gold pins" so I'd assume preamp tubes in that case.
> 
> As a starting point then, I'd suggest offering some info on the 3 factors I mentioned (amp, expectations, tube types) and see what comes back to you from here. *With luck, you'll get some straight advice & opinion...as opposed to a raging debate on whether tubes actually make a tonal difference.* *:^ )*


Ahem........


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## nonreverb

I've only observed one brand that I would call egregiously bad compared to other brands of the same type. As stated earlier, the EH/Sovtek 6L6. It was obvious, looking at the output on a scope, that their output was noticeably lower and it wasn't an isolated incident. They had an anemic, dull sound. Whether it be their sensitivity is lower than other brands or some plate impedance variation.....whatever it is, I refuse to use them because of it.

This leads into the larger argument raging here. I agree Bill that back in the day, there were fairly stringent standards governing tube production and based on a given circuit design, all should operate similarly. Problem is, we now have a situation were very few companies are producing the product and there really aren't any overarching regulations to keep them in check. Therefore, there's lots of room for variation when considering tolerances for any given tube.
Yes they "should" all sound the same but my single experience tells me that's not always the case.

Having said that, there is a preponderance of fluff talk out there such as chimey, dark, transparent sounding tubes which gives me pause for thought.


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## Wild Bill

guitarman2 said:


> Yes I've heard you harp this before Bill. But guys like Mark Bartel who build amazing amps and paying special attention to every nuance at every aspect of design, including speakers, tube types, cabinet design, etc. With his engineering qualifications (as well as many others out there) I would tend to believe there is something to this.
> I also have experimented with different tube types\brands, NOS and current production and have heard the differences from higher gain, lower gain, affect on tone highs, lows, etc. Amp builders who proclaim the differences don't actually sell the tubes. Decisions to buy their amps aren't made based on what brand of tube or whether NOS or current production
> You further hurt your credibility by using extreme examples (frozen liquid nitrogen, rabbit fur) to illustrate your argument.
> If you have a technical explanation to backup your opinions as to why you believe what you believe then state it. Don't ridicule those that might have a different opinion than you.


First off, it is not just my opinion but the opinion and belief of engineers and physicists who invented tubes and who designed with them for over 50 years. Only in the world of Internet mojo does this idea of different brands of the same tube having different tone exist.

Second, tone by definition refers to shaping different frequencies differently, i e a given brand of tube has better highs or "chimeyier" mids. A 12Ax7 amplifies up to some 10s of megacycles. How in hell could it even notice the difference between a guitar mids and highs to treat them differently?

Third, there is no sound inside a tube anyway! Just electricity! Electron flow!

Guitarman, it is YOU who is championing a mojo opinion totally unsupported by physics and also BY ANY ACTUAL TRUE SCIENTIFIC TESTING!

If you want to say that the earth is flat, then it is up to YOU to prove it!

Don`t just drag up the name of ONE guy who might not even be an actual engineer and expect that to outweigh the Laws of Physics!

If someone wants me to accept this mojo, there is a very simple way to get me to change my mind. All they have to do is pass a true scientific test. I keep offering to put up a bottle of scotch. It`s been several years now and no one has put up his own bottle and taken on the challenge.

Wild Bill Busen Amps


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## guitarman2

Wild Bill said:


> First off, it is not just my opinion but the opinion and belief of engineers and physicists who invented tubes and who designed with them for over 50 years. Only in the world of Internet mojo does this idea of different brands of the same tube having different tone exist.
> 
> Second, tone by definition refers to shaping different frequencies differently, i e a given brand of tube has better highs or "chimeyier" mids. A 12Ax7 amplifies up to some 10s of megacycles. How in hell could it even notice the difference between a guitar mids and highs to treat them differently?
> 
> Third, there is no sound inside a tube anyway! Just electricity! Electron flow!
> 
> Guitarman, it is YOU who is championing a mojo opinion totally unsupported by physics and also BY ANY ACTUAL TRUE SCIENTIFIC TESTING!
> 
> If you want to say that the earth is flat, then it is up to YOU to prove it!
> 
> Don`t just drag up the name of ONE guy who might not even be an actual engineer and expect that to outweigh the Laws of Physics!
> 
> If someone wants me to accept this mojo, there is a very simple way to get me to change my mind. All they have to do is pass a true scientific test. I keep offering to put up a bottle of scotch. It`s been several years now and no one has put up his own bottle and taken on the challenge.
> 
> Wild Bill Busen Amps


I think your mouth is flapping but nothings coming out. So your technical, scientific proof is your buddies who built tubes for 50 years (how many guitar amps did they design or even play) told you so.
And "There is no sound in a tube only electricity and electron flow". WTF!!! Ok so there is no sound in a speaker. Only magnets and coils. If the tube has nothing to do but power its respective component of the amp then why don't they just invent a solid state tube with more consistency to plug in to these sockets, then these unreliable glass tubes that they are trying to build the old way. 
And of course the tubestore is nuts posting all those reviews of the different tonal characteristics of the different branded tubes. Everybodies nuts except Wild Bill and his old tube building cronies.


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## greco

[h=2]Rules[/h]

To be a fair stand-up boxing match in a 24-foot ring, or as near that size as practicable.
No wrestling or *hugging *allowed.
The rounds to be of three minutes' duration, and one minute's time between rounds.
If either man falls through weakness or otherwise, he must get up unassisted, 10 seconds to be allowed him to do so, the other man meanwhile to return to his corner, and when the fallen man is on his legs the round is to be resumed and continued until the three minutes have expired. If one man fails to come to the scratch in the 10 seconds allowed, it shall be in the power of the referee to give his award in favour of the other man.
A man hanging on the ropes in a helpless state, with his toes off the ground, shall be considered down.
No seconds or any other person to be allowed in the ring during the rounds.
Should the contest be stopped by any unavoidable interference, the referee to name the time and place as soon as possible for finishing the contest; so that the match must be won and lost, unless the backers of both men agree to draw the stakes.
The gloves to be fair-sized boxing gloves of the best quality and new.
Should a glove burst, or come off, it must be replaced to the referee's satisfaction.
A man on one knee is considered down and if struck is entitled to the stakes.
That no shoes or boots with spikes or sprigs be allowed.
The contest in all other respects to be governed by revised London Prize Ring Rules.


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## JCM50

Wild Bill said:


> First off, it is not just my opinion but the opinion and belief of engineers and physicists who invented tubes and who designed with them for over 50 years. Only in the world of Internet mojo does this idea of different brands of the same tube having different tone exist.


Well, opinions are just that, opinions. Also, don't speak for engineers you don't know. 

I know for fact that a JJ 12AX7 sounds different than a Tung Sol 12AX7 or Shuguang 12AX7.

As you may or may not know, tubes do not have a perfectly flat frequency response and different construction of the same type will yield slightly different response. There's no mojo there. Its completely measurable.

- - - Updated - - -



Wild Bill said:


> If someone wants me to accept this mojo, there is a very simple way to get me to change my mind. All they have to do is pass a true scientific test. I keep offering to put up a bottle of scotch. It`s been several years now and no one has put up his own bottle and taken on the challenge.
> 
> Wild Bill Busen Amps


Its not mojo and I'll prove it. Do you have access to a frequency analyser? Its a pretty simple test. I used to have access to one but I don't anymore. That's all that's needed to prove that say a JJ 12AX7 sounds different than a Shuguang 12AX7.


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## Electraglide

Wild Bill said:


> Since I actually worked for Canadian Westinghouse tube division, the last manufacturers in Canada, I picked up a few tips from the old hands that were there.
> 
> Obviously, quality is a big issue. However, for those who believe that there are tonal differences between different pbrands of the same tube, I have some things to pass on.
> 
> First, choose a tube brand that uses ebony elements to make their grids instead of rosewood. Electrons flowing through the tube will have more sustain.
> 
> Second, the tube should be frozen with liquid nitrogen, then wrapped in rabbit fur under a full moon and allowed to slowly return to room temperature while minimizing vibration. The need for this treatment speaks for itself and anyone who didn't already know this must be truly ignorant and should accept this as unquestioned fact.
> 
> Third, special attention to the month of manufacture should be paid. Months like April (Aries) or December (Sagittarius) are Fire signs and will have significantly better highs. January is the Earth sign Capricorn. This means a stronger bass.
> 
> Of course, an Air sign like Libra in October will have a more clean, distinct tone.
> 
> There is some dispute about tubes made in China. Some purists believe that attention should be paid to the Chinese astrological calendar concerning the month of manufacturer but the majority believe that since vacuum tubes were invented in the West they would follow the traditional astrological factors. Since no one seems to be interested in performing ACTUAL SCIENTIFIC TESTS there is no way to prove this idea one way or the other!
> 
> Myself, I worry more about tubes plugging up inside with coarse, country notes from truck driver music. Once a year or so it is a good idea to crank your amp to 11 and play Gerry Doucette's classic tune "Mama Let Him Play Some Rock and Roll". This will blow out any internal accumulations of crap out of them and restore them to their natural good tone.
> 
> Wild Bill/Busen Amps


Doucette? What the hell Bill, everybody knows that you gotta play the Troggs to clean the crap out a tube amp. As far as tubes from different manufacturers sounding different; well, to my ears, RCA's are fuller than Philips and Westinghouse is warmer. Mind you the newest tube anything I have is the '69 YGM2. I'm not too sure what the '36 deForest radio sounds like, I don't have a 90v dc power source for it yet. As far as where I get my tubes, yard sales, second hand stores , places like that.


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## Accept2

Old men arguing over ancient technology. You guys are dating yourselves....................


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## Wild Bill

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Just not their own set of facts!

All I ask is for someone to pass a true blind scientific test. If I can swap different tubes and someone with no way of knowing what has happened can tell me consistently `what tube and when`` then I would either have to accept that different brands sound different or that they are truly psychic.

That`s all I would need! Apparently, I am asking too much.

Wild Bill


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## Diablo

JCM50 said:


> Well, opinions are just that, opinions. Also, don't speak for engineers you don't know.
> 
> I know for fact that a JJ 12AX7 sounds different than a Tung Sol 12AX7 or Shuguang 12AX7.
> 
> As you may or may not know, tubes do not have a perfectly flat frequency response and different construction of the same type will yield slightly different response. There's no mojo there. Its completely measurable.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> 
> 
> * Its not mojo and I'll prove it. Do you have access to a frequency analyser? Its a pretty simple test. I used to have access to one but I don't anymore. That's all that's needed to prove that say a JJ 12AX7 sounds different than a Shuguang 12AX7*.


I don't know if I'd call that proof that something sounds different ie. to the human ear/brain. Its a bit like saying "Pepsi has more ingredient x, therefore it must taste better". Lab results are not the same as subjective human results. My wife makes grilled cheese using 5yr old Balderson cheddar, arguably a very good cheese. But it does NOT taste better to me than one made with a $.20 Black Diamond processed cheese slice, even though on paper the Balderson is superior.

Back to your example, while it would be interesting to see different frequency analysis reports, nothing would be more convincing to me personally than to hear the 2 in action against each other in a blind test with a significant sample size so as to rule out the possibility of batch variances. frequencies etc are tangible and objective, but sound quality is human and subjective. You cannot necessarily make a direct connection between the two.

Musicians are a funny bunch. I bet if you went back 50 yrs in time, the idea of good sounding distortion then would have probably been laughable. Of course, in classical music, it likely still is. That's where the subjectivity of it all comes in.

FWIW, I appreciated the humor of Bills post on several levels, even if it may have taken his point to absurdity.
Now excuse me, I have a jam tonight and need to get back to praying to the god of Guitar Mojo and the Great Unicorn of Singing for their blessings.


----------



## Lincoln

Mamma Let him play........I love that song! :sFun_dancing:


----------



## JCM50

Diablo said:


> I don't know if I'd call that proof that something sounds different ie. to the human ear/brain. Its a bit like saying "Pepsi has more ingredient x, therefore it must taste better". Lab results are not the same as subjective human results. My wife makes grilled cheese using 5yr old Balderson cheddar, arguably a very good cheese. But it does NOT taste better to me than one made with a $.20 Black Diamond processed cheese slice, even though on paper the Balderson is superior.


Well, tone is subjective. I don't think anyone here is saying that one tube sounds "better" than another. It really depends on the amp and application/expectations. In my Marshalls, I prefer the Shuguangs, for which most "internet opinions" are that they suck. I don't care what others say though, 'cos they sound good to me. 

In terms of running different tubes through a spectrum analyser, it would be sufficient proof that different tubes have different frequency responses. Whether or not you can hear all the nuances is a different story but with a 1db difference in response, you could hear the difference, so yes, there is a way to prove it. Its really not rocket science. 

BTW, Balderson tastes better... to me


----------



## guitarman2

JCM50 said:


> BTW, Balderson tastes better... to me


Without a doubt. And likely anyone who thinks the processed cheese slices taste just as good is not a Cheese connoisseur. Just like an amp repair guy who's primary purpose is to get amps to simply work may not have studied tube differences and nuances. But simply in their close minded method simply wrote it off as Electron flows and electricity and what tube factory workers told him.
An I doubt a simple blind test would accomplish much. In my testing and comparing of tubes over the years I've had to switch in and out several times, over several nights conducting little mini tests of my own. Not very scientific. I've heard an NOS Jan Phillips 12AX7 in the right position take out harshness that I've experienced with a current production Sovtek. Many other examples I won't go in to here. Mostly I agree that a primary objective is attaining reliability. But when you're trying to squeeze every bit out of a certain direction your trying to take your amp different brands can be experimented with. Along with other components of the amp such as speaker choice, etc.


----------



## NGroeneveld

greco said:


> *Rules*
> 
> 
> 
> To be a fair stand-up boxing match in a 24-foot ring, or as near that size as practicable.
> No wrestling or *hugging *allowed.
> The rounds to be of three minutes' duration, and one minute's time between rounds.
> If either man falls through weakness or otherwise, he must get up unassisted, 10 seconds to be allowed him to do so, the other man meanwhile to return to his corner, and when the fallen man is on his legs the round is to be resumed and continued until the three minutes have expired. If one man fails to come to the scratch in the 10 seconds allowed, it shall be in the power of the referee to give his award in favour of the other man.
> A man hanging on the ropes in a helpless state, with his toes off the ground, shall be considered down.
> No seconds or any other person to be allowed in the ring during the rounds.
> Should the contest be stopped by any unavoidable interference, the referee to name the time and place as soon as possible for finishing the contest; so that the match must be won and lost, unless the backers of both men agree to draw the stakes.
> The gloves to be fair-sized boxing gloves of the best quality and new.
> Should a glove burst, or come off, it must be replaced to the referee's satisfaction.
> A man on one knee is considered down and if struck is entitled to the stakes.
> That no shoes or boots with spikes or sprigs be allowed.
> The contest in all other respects to be governed by revised London Prize Ring Rules.


Got a good laugh outa this one!!


----------



## bluzfish

When I bought a YCV 80 some time ago, the more I played it, the more I realized how dull and lifeless it sounded. I replaced all the tubes with JJs and the amp came alive. I swapped the tubes several times and reached the same conclusion - the difference was obvious.

So I had several 2AX7s and an Epi Valve Jr that has one preamp tube. I blindly tried each of them (eyes closed as I chose and installed each one) to see if I could tell the difference. With a couple of them, I couldn't tell the difference but there were a couple that definitely sounded different, especially in the mids and highs.

Not a purely scientific test but enough of a difference in the results that I have to conclude that different brands of tubes can affect the overall sound coming out of the speaker. With power tubes I can't really say if there is a significant difference because I never have occasion to push them beyond lower power level applications.

Sorry Bill. I accept your experience and respect your expertise, but I have to disagree with your arguments.


----------



## Lincoln

bluzfish said:


> When I bought a YCV 80 some time ago, the more I played it, the more I realized how dull and lifeless it sounded. I replaced all the tubes with JJs and the amp came alive. I swapped the tubes several times and reached the same conclusion - the difference was obvious.
> 
> So I had several 2AX7s and an Epi Valve Jr that has one preamp tube. I blindly tried each of them (eyes closed as I chose and installed each one) to see if I could tell the difference. With a couple of them, I couldn't tell the difference but there were a couple that definitely sounded different, especially in the mids and highs.
> 
> Not a purely scientific test but enough of a difference in the results that I have to conclude that different brands of tubes can affect the overall sound coming out of the speaker. With power tubes I can't really say if there is a significant difference because I never have occasion to push them beyond lower power level applications.
> 
> Sorry Bill. I accept your experience and respect your expertise, but I have to disagree with your arguments.


That's where you have to wonder if the dead sounding tubes you replaced would have failed or scored very low on a tube tester. Certainly we've all had our share of bad tubes/crappy tubes/tubes that just never seemed right. Do those type of things show up on a tube tester? 
What about a dirty socket? Does that effect tone/mojo/freq. response? Everytime you change tubes the socket pins get cleaner until suddenly it's all good?


----------



## bluzfish

All very true. But the bottom line for me is that whether it's due to quality control, slack tolerences or differences in materials used, different tubes can affect the overall tone of an amp. Perhaps even the same tube in different amp circuits would have different results. That I haven't played around with.


----------



## Diablo

JCM50 said:


> Well, tone is subjective. I don't think anyone here is saying that one tube sounds "better" than another. It really depends on the amp and application/expectations. In my Marshalls, I prefer the Shuguangs, for which most "internet opinions" are that they suck. I don't care what others say though, 'cos they sound good to me.
> 
> In terms of running different tubes through a spectrum analyser, it would be sufficient proof that different tubes have different frequency responses. Whether or not you can hear all the nuances is a different story but with a 1db difference in response, you could hear the difference, so yes, there is a way to prove it. Its really not rocket science.
> 
> BTW, Balderson tastes better... to me


fair enough.

And I like Balderson too, but a 5yr is just too sharp for a grilled cheese sandwich. IMO.
proc cheese aint classy, but theres something to be said for comfort food done the way you had it growing up, sometimes


----------



## nonreverb

There's one other factor which I forgot to mention in my previous post which lends itself to the difference in how two tubes sound with the same number.
It's a sneaky trick some manufacturers did back in the day and I suspect, still do now. That is misbranding tube types.

I remember several years ago getting a bunch of Westinghouse 12AX7A's for stock at the store I was working at back then.
I installed them in a customer Marshall and let it go. Not long after, he came back to me and insisted that it didn't sound as punchy as it had before.
After investigating the circuit along with everything else I could think of, I concluded it was the preamp tubes.

It turns out, based on other peoples posts and my own observations, Westinghouse had rebranded a bunch of 5751's as 12AX7"s. You can imagine the lack of output gain with two of these plus the phase inverter installed in a JCM800!

All to say, most cases tubes do operate the same BUT there are cases where production variation or in this case, by pure greed/laziness, tubes can indeed sound different.


----------



## gtrguy

We've visited this debate previously. Waste of time. People have their opinions and won't be convinced otherwise. I know what I hear and that's all that matters- to me. Someone else can say that there's no difference until they are blue in the face... doesn't make a difference.. to me.


----------



## nonreverb

It's like religion: A religious person will emphatically voice a belief in God regardless the proof or lack thereof. Faith is a powerful thing


----------



## loudtubeamps

Here we go.............again


----------



## sulphur

Tone and mojo aside, is there any difference in the reliability of the more expensive tubes?

Is it worth the dough to get the premium package than the economy package at the TubeStore?
It's not mojo I'm after, a tube that will last is my main concern.


----------



## jb welder

nonreverb said:


> It's like religion: A religious person will emphatically voice a belief in God regardless the proof or lack thereof. Faith is a powerful thing


 Yes it is powerful. And whether or not there is any real tonal difference, the belief is still going to impact the playing of the user.


----------



## greco

loudtubeamps said:


>


Many thanks for my laugh for the day!

Cheers

Dave


----------



## jb welder

sulphur said:


> Tone and mojo aside, is there any difference in the reliability of the more expensive tubes?
> 
> Is it worth the dough to get the premium package than the economy package at the TubeStore?
> It's not mojo I'm after, a tube that will last is my main concern.


 I don't believe the difference is worth double the price. I think someone may have mentioned elsewhere that your amp is auto-bias. That is not the case, some of them have auto-_balance_, but there is still a bias adjustment. Bias it to the factory spec. and I think you should be ok with the lower price set. Unless you have specific defects, save your old tubes for spares or comparisons.


----------



## nonreverb

Where I've found reliability is critical and therefore better tubes are a must is with amps with very high plate voltages. SVT's, PS400's, some Hiwatts, Stramps and some Marshalls come to mind. Cheap tubes in these tend to fail prematurely....even regular stock can sometimes succumb when plate voltages get beyond 500V.



sulphur said:


> Tone and mojo aside, is there any difference in the reliability of the more expensive tubes?
> 
> Is it worth the dough to get the premium package than the economy package at the TubeStore?
> It's not mojo I'm after, a tube that will last is my main concern.


----------



## Wild Bill

nonreverb said:


> It turns out, based on other peoples posts and my own observations, Westinghouse had rebranded a bunch of 5751's as 12AX7"s. You can imagine the lack of output gain with two of these plus the phase inverter installed in a JCM800!
> 
> All to say, most cases tubes do operate the same BUT there are cases where production variation or in this case, by pure greed/laziness, tubes can indeed sound different.


I simply do not believe this story!

I worked for them! I know how they operated! They were a long established huge industry player that operated with integrity. 

Plus, it makes no sense!

You see, Westinghouse supplied to large volume customers. If they had substituted 5751s for 12AX7s they could have pissed off an established, volume customer. It wouldve made no business sense to do such a thing.

Besides, with their low hum wound filaments, 5751s cost MORE than 12AX7s!

Even more, as I said before when I wrote about small differences in voltage gain being swamped out in a preamp chain, if you have a total gain of a bazillion what difference does 70% of a bazillion make!

You guys must understand, to Westinghouse the musician market was mice nuts! It would cost more to screw around than to operate legitimately.

Wild Bill Busen Amps

- - - Updated - - -


----------



## Wild Bill

guitarman2 said:


> Without a doubt. And likely anyone who thinks the processed cheese slices taste just as good is not a Cheese connoisseur. Just like an amp repair guy who's primary purpose is to get amps to simply work may not have studied tube differences and nuances. But simply in their close minded method simply wrote it off as Electron flows and electricity and what tube factory workers told him.
> An I doubt a simple blind test would accomplish much. In my testing and comparing of tubes over the years I've had to switch in and out several times, over several nights conducting little mini tests of my own. Not very scientific. I've heard an NOS Jan Phillips 12AX7 in the right position take out harshness that I've experienced with a current production Sovtek. Many other examples I won't go in to here. Mostly I agree that a primary objective is attaining reliability. But when you're trying to squeeze every bit out of a certain direction your trying to take your amp different brands can be experimented with. Along with other components of the amp such as speaker choice, etc.


WOW!

First you rewrite history and say that I learned from factory workers. For the record, I learned from engineers. 

Of course, I have no doubt you learned all about the subject from engineers yourself.

Then you effectively state that blind, scientific tests don`t matter anyway, referring to a purely subjective test of your own.

I give up! It`s like arguing with a Jehovah Witness!

Life is too short!

Let`s go back to how with Rob Ford in rehab Olivia Chow will now lower taxes in Toronto!

Wild Bill


----------



## nonreverb

With all due respect Bill....you're dead wrong on this one! We looked at these tubes in detail. Plates were definitely the same as 5751. These were very late production with bright red Westinghouse labels. Tested them against true 12AX7's and they were NOT the same gain!!



Wild Bill said:


> I simply do not believe this story!
> 
> I worked for them! I know how they operated! They were a long established huge industry player that operated with integrity.
> 
> Plus, it makes no sense!
> 
> You see, Westinghouse supplied to large volume customers. If they had substituted 5751s for 12AX7s they could have pissed off an established, volume customer. It wouldve made no business sense to do such a thing.
> 
> Besides, with their low hum wound filaments, 5751s cost MORE than 12AX7s!
> 
> Even more, as I said before when I wrote about small differences in voltage gain being swamped out in a preamp chain, if you have a total gain of a bazillion what difference does 70% of a bazillion make!
> 
> You guys must understand, to Westinghouse the musician market was mice nuts! It would cost more to screw around than to operate legitimately.
> 
> Wild Bill Busen Amps
> 
> - - - Updated - - -


----------



## guitarman2

Wild Bill said:


> WOW!
> 
> First you rewrite history and say that I learned from factory workers. For the record, I learned from engineers.
> 
> Of course, I have no doubt you learned all about the subject from engineers yourself.
> 
> Then you effectively state that blind, scientific tests don`t matter anyway, referring to a purely subjective test of your own.
> 
> I give up! It`s like arguing with a Jehovah Witness!
> 
> Life is too short!
> 
> Let`s go back to how with Rob Ford in rehab Olivia Chow will now lower taxes in Toronto!
> 
> Wild Bill



I don't know Bill. Not many that I see support your theory. Maybe your the one thats the Jehova Witness.


----------



## nonreverb

A little light reading for you Bill just so we're clear. I suspect that the tubes we had were counterfeit like these. Only difference was ours were US made however they had the exact same label.
http://vintageamps.com/plexiboard/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=104093&p=1013257



Wild Bill said:


> I simply do not believe this story!
> 
> I worked for them! I know how they operated! They were a long established huge industry player that operated with integrity.
> 
> Plus, it makes no sense!
> 
> You see, Westinghouse supplied to large volume customers. If they had substituted 5751s for 12AX7s they could have pissed off an established, volume customer. It wouldve made no business sense to do such a thing.
> 
> Besides, with their low hum wound filaments, 5751s cost MORE than 12AX7s!
> 
> Even more, as I said before when I wrote about small differences in voltage gain being swamped out in a preamp chain, if you have a total gain of a bazillion what difference does 70% of a bazillion make!
> 
> You guys must understand, to Westinghouse the musician market was mice nuts! It would cost more to screw around than to operate legitimately.
> 
> Wild Bill Busen Amps
> 
> - - - Updated - - -


----------



## Wild Bill

nonreverb said:


> With all due respect Bill....you're dead wrong on this one! We looked at these tubes in detail. Plates were definitely the same as 5751. These were very late production with bright red Westinghouse labels. Tested them against true 12AX7's and they were NOT the same gain!!


Well, I will agree its possible that a mistake was made, particularly in the final years when there were only a couple of people left in the department.

In the final 5 years, all the engineers were retired and pretty well all the other experienced people as well. I was fortunate to have caught the last of the `greats`to benefit from their experience.

I`m taking exception more towards your implication of laziness or outright dishonesty. That simply doesn`t jive with what I knew of the people involved or the logic of subbing a more expensive tube.

Wild Bill


----------



## jb welder

This is somewhat beside the point. Westinghouse no longer makes tubes, nor do RCA, GE or any other companies who once made them.
What may have been true is no longer so. 

Tolerances are no where near as tight, there is no need for industrial or military tubes. 
Many of the tubes available since before the turn of the century are _not_ what they are labelled as, rather, many are Russian surplus with Russian numbers that were _close_ or _similar_ to actual US tube numbers. The sellers/distributors will not even deny it.
So how can a Russian numbered 6P something (whatever, you need actual Russian fonts) relabeled as 5881 or 6L6 be expected to sound the same as the actual item? 6V6 would be another example, or the "new" 7189, here's the sales blurb "Our Preferred Series 7189 starts life as a NOS (New Old Stock) Russian 6P14P-EV as translated from Cyrillic". Well, it says 7189 right on the bottle, does anyone want to guarantee it will sound exactly the same as a 7189?
If I can install 2 new tubes of the same type and same brand in the same spot of the same amp and get the exact same DC voltage readings I am amazed. With that kind of variation between tubes of the same _batch_, I sure don't expect tubes of different brands to sound exactly the same. Especially considering one may be a real 6L6, while they other may be something that "started life" as something else. :congratulatory: 
New JJ 6V6 would be another example, somewhere between a 6V6 and a "true" 5881, higher wattage and withstands higher voltage than a "real" 6v6.
Consider also that most vintage schematics have notes that say "all voltages +/- 20%." Why the big variation?
These are some of the reasons tubes _labelled_ as the same type may sound quite different from one another.

Personally I think of tubes almost like organic beings :smile-new:, I don't even expect them to sound the same from one day to the next!


----------



## Wild Bill

nonreverb said:


> A little light reading for you Bill just so we're clear. I suspect that the tubes we had were counterfeit like these. Only difference was ours were US made however they had the exact same label.
> http://vintageamps.com/plexiboard/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=104093&p=1013257


Counterfeiting I could buy! It`s ridiculously easy to do. At the location where I worked, we rebranded tubes all the time, since the factory had been shut down for over 10 years. We bought on the surplus market and rebranded the tubes under the Westinghouse name.

Even when original production was going on, rebranding was exceedingly common between all manufacturers of known quality. If RCA or Motorola got caught short on an order for a few skidsful of 12AX7s they would routinely order from Westinghouse or whoever. They would always order from competitors they respected because when you rebranded a tube under your own name you immediately became responsible for all guarantees and warranties. Legally speaking, it was the same as if you had made that tube yourself.

By the time I worked there in the mid 80s the original manufacturing equipment from all North American plants had been bought up by eastern European countries. Russia still was decades behind in making semiconductors and because of the Cold War western countries could not sell them ICs, computer chips and the like. Vacuum tubes were still being used in Russian MIGS and lunar probes! Those countries were like the old Wild West as far as counterfeiting products and selling fake tubes was rampant.

Incidently, the USSR had been running under their communist system since 1917 and their miserable level of technology proved that once they nationalized a shoe factory they could make lots of shoes but never, ever design and build new machinery to make shoes in a better fashion! Yet despite their self-imposed limitations they still managed to put the 1st man into space, before the Americans!

Another example of good people under a bad government. Reminds me of our own country sometimes!

Wild Bill


----------



## loudtubeamps

▶ 12AX7 Current Production Vacuum Tube Comparison - YouTube:sFun_cheerleader2:

testing.....testing..............1.......2.......3 ............ into V1 with a looper.
a bit crude, but it does demonstrate and illustrate the differences, which does translate into "the mojo factor" down the line, to your transducer of choice.
▶ Jim Lahey's Shit Storm - YouTube


----------



## nonreverb

What or whom is charting the graph though? I agree it's a great test bed but is that graph being charted real time? Doesn't look like it...



loudtubeamps said:


> ▶ 12AX7 Current Production Vacuum Tube Comparison - YouTube:sFun_cheerleader2:
> 
> testing.....testing..............1.......2.......3 ............ into V1 with a looper.
> a bit crude, but it does demonstrate and illustrate the differences, which does translate into "the mojo factor" down the line, to your transducer of choice.
> ▶ Jim Lahey's Shit Storm - YouTube


----------



## jtienhaara

Some interesting details early on in this thread!

Now, to scientifically solve the dilemma once and for all:

5 year old cheddar is better. Even for grilling.

Balderson is far from the best 5 year old cheddar.

And 10 year old cheddar is best.

QED.


----------



## NGroeneveld

jtienhaara said:


> Some interesting details early on in this thread!
> 
> Now, to scientifically solve the dilemma once and for all:
> 
> 5 year old cheddar is better. Even for grilling.
> 
> Balderson is far from the best 5 year old cheddar.
> 
> And 10 year old cheddar is best.
> 
> QED.


What is this 'Balderson' you speak of? I've never heard of it. One of the common brands, no doubt. I suggest you hie with all good speed to your local fromagerie, and inquire within as to the availability of some fine Welsh cheddar. 'Colliers' can only be highly recommended, I must say. Must run, the latte cools. 

PS. Thanks for all the info on tubes folks


----------



## bluzfish

Sorry Robert...

[video=youtube_share;vJhq9eq_eJg]http://youtu.be/vJhq9eq_eJg[/video]

I'm a big fan of Baldersons cheese. It's like candy for me.


----------



## jtienhaara

I'm going to have to shoot you.

+1 on the Collier's!

Just stumbled on this "6L6C Comparison of Current Made Tubes":

http://www.tubesandmore.com/tech_corner/6l6gc-comparison-current-made-tubes










To me the frequency graph makes it look like the various tubes output slightly different overall levels, but the response dips and peaks are, for all intents and purposes, the same. It's nothing like comparing speaker response graphs, where the peaks and valleys are often vastly different from model to model.

Thoughts?


----------



## rhh7

My thoughts are that this lends support to Wild Bill's theory.


----------



## vadsy

rhh7 said:


> My thoughts are that this lends support to Wild Bill's theory.


The theory he lays out in this thread or the one in the link below?

http://web.archive.org/web/20080515121129/http://thetubestore.com/6l6costello.html


----------



## bluzfish

Although, I would think that even small differences in a 12AX7 which are amplified and affected many times in the preamp circuitry would have the end tonal differences which might be very audible to the listener. For instance, a 12AX7 with slightly brighter character in a preamp circuit designed to compensate the lack of brightness in another tube might sound harsh or ice picky in that application. Whereas the tube the circuit was designed with may sound just fine.

http://www.tubesandmore.com/tech_corner/12ax7_comparison_of_current_made_tubes


----------



## jb welder

Some of the difference in the mids is in excess of 3db. This is certainly significant/noticeable. Remember, we are talking about subtle differences that people hear and whether the tubes sound "exactly" the same. The graphs show they do not.
For those who can't hear 3db worth of difference, there is a truck that goes around and will check your hearing for free....:smile-new:
There really is a price many have paid for those years of stadium rock without hearing protection.


----------



## nonreverb

Which further lends credence to the debunking of the percieved variations in tubes. Sure they might be some subtle differences but there are so many other variables at play including distortion pedals, effects, transfomers, speakers, component drift, playing at 10, the size of the room, the guitar you're playing the hearing loss of both the listener and player etc etc etc etc.....
I'm sure if one looks hard enough, they'll find yet another test that shows a completely different result....it is the internet after all.
With three basic manufacturers to choose from, we all should thank our lucky stars we're gettin' any tubes at all.....



jb welder said:


> Some of the difference in the mids is in excess of 3db. This is certainly significant/noticeable. Remember, we are talking about subtle differences that people hear and whether the tubes sound "exactly" the same. The graphs show they do not.
> For those who can't hear 3db worth of difference, there is a truck that goes around and will check your hearing for free....:smile-new:
> There really is a price many have paid for those years of stadium rock without hearing protection.


----------



## StevieMac

vadsy said:


> The theory he lays out in this thread or the one in the link below?
> 
> http://web.archive.org/web/20080515121129/http://thetubestore.com/6l6costello.html


Still one of my favourite lines from that review:_ 

"I switched between the other brands and even had someone else do the switching and re-biasing while I closed my eyes to keep the test "blind" yet my ears could always hear that little bit extra that told me it was the Philips tubes driving the speakers."

_


----------



## Wild Bill

StevieMac said:


> Still one of my favourite lines from that review:_
> 
> "I switched between the other brands and even had someone else do the switching and re-biasing while I closed my eyes to keep the test "blind" yet my ears could always hear that little bit extra that told me it was the Philips tubes driving the speakers."
> 
> _


I've covered this a number of times before. Still, I guess some would rather ignore the graph given in the post and just attack ME! 

If you make me look bad or the butt of your jokes, does that make you right?

Once again, that review was given when I first started out professionally. At the time I accepted the prevailing internet mojo, thinking that if so many believed it things must be true!

My test was not as scientific or as blind as it should have been. I didn't think it needed to be, since I assumed that such an idea would have some real science behind it or there would have been no way it would have spread so widely.

Man, was I wrong! I should have known - look at how astrology has spread and lasted!

I also had enlisted the aid of some of my musician customers to listen for differences. They insisted they could hear them and I believed them without properly checking. I even believed I could hear them myself!

Still, the idea never sat right with me and so I started doing more research. I remembered again what the old Westinghouse engineers had told me. I remembered what I had learned about the physics of vacuum tubes and electron flow.

Eventually I came to the realization that not only had I accepted an idea that was dead wrong but there was ZERO true scientific evidence to support it!

I say again, all someone has to do to convince me is pass a true blind test!

If the idea is indeed true it should be easy as pie for someone to demonstrate it.

Once again, I'm willing to pony up a bottle of GOOD scotch!

No one has yet done the same to put the idea to the test. All I get are personal attacks and more references to internet mojo.

If it can't pass a scientific test, it HAS to be BS!

So Stevie, Vadsy and the others championing the idea, why don't you put your money where your mouth is?

If you prove me wrong I will cheerfully hand you the bottle!

If you fail, will you reciprocate?

Wild Bill


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## vadsy

You know if you aren't having much luck with getting anyone to take you up on the test maybe try a different forum. We've obviously exhausted this on here and it seems to be at a stalemate. If you want to be a martyr for the cause maybe it's time for some new blood and a bigger venue plus someone might be able to take that scotch off your hands.


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## guitarman2

jtienhaara said:


> I'm going to have to shoot you.
> 
> +1 on the Collier's!
> 
> Just stumbled on this "6L6C Comparison of Current Made Tubes":
> 
> http://www.tubesandmore.com/tech_corner/6l6gc-comparison-current-made-tubes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me the frequency graph makes it look like the various tubes output slightly different overall levels, but the response dips and peaks are, for all intents and purposes, the same. It's nothing like comparing speaker response graphs, where the peaks and valleys are often vastly different from model to model.
> 
> Thoughts?



I'm not up on the science but I'm willing to bet if you consider only the tubes them selves with no consideration for the impact on any other component of the amp then maybe its the same. But otherwise millions of ears will tell you, when you switch tubes there's a difference to be heard. To me someone who preaches the science alone and stands by that maybe just aint listening to the music.

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nonreverb said:


> we all should thank our lucky stars we're gettin' any tubes at all.....


Which alone probably makes this argument pointless.

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Wild Bill said:


> If you make me look bad or the butt of your jokes, does that make you right?
> 
> 
> Wild Bill


Oh cry me a river. You're the one who started the condescending ridicule.


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## nonreverb

Ok....now that we're all experts on both sides of this ridiculous fence, it's time to put this thread to sleep.....may we'll all sleep well tonight comforted in the thought that somehow kinda, sorta, something was won here today...and maybe, just maybe something was actually learned along the way.


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## Wild Bill

vadsy said:


> You know if you aren't having much luck with getting anyone to take you up on the test maybe try a different forum. We've obviously exhausted this on here and it seems to be at a stalemate. If you want to be a martyr for the cause maybe it's time for some new blood and a bigger venue plus someone might be able to take that scotch off your hands.


Yep! More personal attacks!

And no offer to pass a test.

What else is new?

Maybe I don't get any takers because no one thinks they could pass.

Wild Bill


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## jtienhaara

There was this cheddar I used to eat, it might have been Red Leaf, I can't remember the name. Anyway It was awesome, very sharp and very crumbly (unlike Balderson's, which is at the more buttery end of the cheddar spectrum). It was also cheap, which was nice. Unfortunately it smelled like a dirty sneaker. So my cubicle neighbour asked me to stop eating it for lunch.

I miss that cheese.


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## guitarman2

Wild Bill said:


> Yep! More personal attacks!
> 
> And no offer to pass a test.
> 
> What else is new?
> 
> Maybe I don't get any takers because no one thinks they could pass.
> 
> Wild Bill


I don't see a valid offer. I'd consider you far from qualified to conduct a test. Maybe we could find someone that's completely biased towards the "there is a difference between tubes", camp.


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## jtienhaara

I guess it's past time to unsubscribe.

If anyone wants to start a thread about cheddar, though, I'll be all over that like a beagle on a slice of pizza left half-eaten in the grass.

Johann


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## bluzfish

guitarman2 said:


> I don't see a valid offer. I'd consider you far from qualified to conduct a test. *Maybe we could find someone that's completely biased towards the "there is a difference between tubes", camp.*


That, a free plane ticket to Hamilton along with hotel and meals, and I'd be there Bill. I'm perfectly willing to have my observations tested whether I am proven wrong or not. It's just not a practical challenge to all comers.


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## vadsy

Don't give me the "he's mean to me, make him stop". You're a grown man who goes out looking for this kind of attention.

I truly don't give a rip about the test or the scotch! I'm sure I couldn't pass it blind but I'm also comfortable with the tubes I've got running in my amps, be it new or old, manufacture X or Y. The years and tests of my own have brought me to contentment and to terms. I truly didn't want to get involved in another dead horse beating tube thread but you keep at it and for the record I waited until post 73 to get involved. 

You know what... I'll take the test but you come to me, if you win I'll give you two bottles and a handwritten apology for being mean to you. Bring your tubes, amps and scientific gear, it'll be fun, we can have a BBQ. I'm actually debating between a Weber and a Napoleon right now, any say on that? I'd also like to see you take your science to the next stage, let's see you post this on TGP and follow the debate through. I bet you don't have it in you but if you do I'd love to follow it along and see you win people over with the science and not the mojo in sound.



Wild Bill said:


> Yep! More personal attacks!
> 
> And no offer to pass a test.
> 
> What else is new?
> 
> Maybe I don't get any takers because no one thinks they could pass.
> 
> Wild Bill


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jtienhaara said:


> I guess it's past time to unsubscribe.
> 
> If anyone wants to start a thread about cheddar, though, I'll be all over that like a beagle on a slice of pizza left half-eaten in the grass.
> 
> Johann


A thread about cheddar? No, but how about one about BBQ's, Weber or Napoleon?


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## bluzfish

Mmmmmm... BBQ...

... AND stinky cheese?...


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## vadsy

bluzfish said:


> Mmmmmm... BBQ...
> 
> ... AND stinky cheese?...


Perfect... right?

- - - Updated - - -

I shouldn't say no to a cheese thread but I think I'll seriously start a BBQ thread. Maybe a poll, it's time for a new one in this household.


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## nonreverb

Weber...100%
Too bad I can't enjoy it more with this shitty weather....


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## guitarman2

nonreverb said:


> Weber...100%
> Too bad I can't enjoy it more with this shitty weather....


100% agree. Weber all the way. Of course my science is unproven as I've only ever owned Weber.


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## loudtubeamps

I find Weber's to be a bit warmer in the top end.:stirpot:


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## Wild Bill

guitarman2 said:


> I don't see a valid offer. I'd consider you far from qualified to conduct a test. Maybe we could find someone that's completely biased towards the "there is a difference between tubes", camp.


Science is science, guitarman! That's the point of a scientific test. It should eliminate all biases. What difference does how the tester feels matter? As long as he's not a crook, that is. 

I certainly understand that a cross country meet is not practical, but who says it has to be YOU who takes the test? Over the years I have found NO ONE! Not in my home town or anywhere else.

We had some talk here before about organizing a jam night at some local club but no one seems to have the time to organize it. I think it could be a lot of fun! We could also test guitar cables and speaker wire.

Whatever, as I keep saying, people will believe whatever they want and no test or facts will change that.

However, I would expect that if the effect of different brands of tubes affecting tone is true there must have been a scientific test somewhere, some time! There should be all kinds of them and also you should be able to find references in electronic textbooks. The testing methodology should also have been published, MANY TIMES! It should be a simple thing for anyone to look up the information and run the test themselves to get the same answers.

Yet I can find no reference to one on the net. Lots of purely subjective "tests" and lots of mojo talk but nothing REAL!

Perhaps I am just poor at googling. If you can give some links that prove this tone idea I would appreciate reading them.

Wild Bill Busen Amps


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## WCGill

Wild Bill said:


> Over the years I have found NO ONE! Not in my home town or anywhere


Methinks it's the Scotch.


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## bluzfish

Wild Bill said:


> Science is science, guitarman!


Live long and prosper, Mr. Spock. :smile-new:


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## vadsy

Wild Bill, have you considered getting together with Myles Rose? He seems to be knowledgeable, tests all kinds of tubes and publishes results. I don't know if you guys would get in a fist fight or possibly publish a book and make a million dollars.


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## WCGill

Myles who shilled for Groove Tubes telling everyone the reason their Mullard reissues were failing was because of their amplifiers, that Myles?


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## vadsy

Same guy I believe.


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## Wild Bill

WCGill said:


> Myles who shilled for Groove Tubes telling everyone the reason their Mullard reissues were failing was because of their amplifiers, that Myles?


I'm familiar with Myles and Groove Tubes. 

I'm too much of an old hippy, I'm afraid. I just would not be comfortable having anything to do with him or that company.

I like to sleep at nights!

Wild Bill


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## WCGill

loudtubeamps said:


> I find Weber's to be a bit warmer in the top end.:stirpot:


But still tasty.


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## Roryfan

loudtubeamps said:


> I find Weber's to be a bit warmer in the top end.:stirpot:


Lots of guys like JJs, but IMHO it's pretty hard to beat a JM for top end.....


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## gtrguy

WCGill said:


> But still tasty.
> 
> View attachment 8242


Ha, good one! :applouse:

I like it!


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## loudtubeamps

WCGill said:


> But still tasty.
> 
> View attachment 8242


Nice photo shoot.........I see u have all the models.............and wayyyy too much time on yer' hands!:slash:


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## Lincoln

I don't want to start this debate up again, I just want to ask a question about Groove Tubes. 

GT's don't seem to get much love. Are they one of the poorer brands? not talking tone, just reliability


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## JCM50

I recently bought some Groove tube 6L6s, because that's all that L&M had in stock. I installed 'em in a Fender SuperSonic and they sound nice. No complaints here.
Groove Tubes is owned by Fender.


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## nonreverb

Groove tubes are a second tier vendor like Ruby or Mesa. They're using all the same tubes everybody else is....except they're charging more for them.


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## JCM50

nonreverb said:


> Groove tubes are a second tier vendor like Ruby or Mesa. They're using all the same tubes everybody else is....except they're charging more for them.


I don't know... comparing online prices of Groove Tubes vs other alternatives, they seemed to be in line, price wise. I paid 55.00 for the matched pair (6L6GC), which are similar to the TAD 6L6.


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## WCGill

The price may be similar, but they aren't the same tubes. TAD has their tubes manufactured in China to their specs and sells them exclusively, as do Ruby and some others.


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## nonreverb

Groove tunes and Mesa are...
Can't really comment on TAD however, I suspect Ruby tubes aren't really that much different than regular issue Chinese stuff. They're all made in the same factory. They just do runs of their tubes. Not particularly great power tubes either IMO.


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## Church-Audio

Wild Bill said:


> First off, it is not just my opinion but the opinion and belief of engineers and physicists who invented tubes and who designed with them for over 50 years. Only in the world of Internet mojo does this idea of different brands of the same tube having different tone exist.
> 
> Second, tone by definition refers to shaping different frequencies differently, i e a given brand of tube has better highs or "chimeyier" mids. A 12Ax7 amplifies up to some 10s of megacycles. How in hell could it even notice the difference between a guitar mids and highs to treat them differently?
> 
> Third, there is no sound inside a tube anyway! Just electricity! Electron flow!
> 
> Guitarman, it is YOU who is championing a mojo opinion totally unsupported by physics and also BY ANY ACTUAL TRUE SCIENTIFIC TESTING!
> 
> If you want to say that the earth is flat, then it is up to YOU to prove it!
> 
> Don`t just drag up the name of ONE guy who might not even be an actual engineer and expect that to outweigh the Laws of Physics!
> 
> If someone wants me to accept this mojo, there is a very simple way to get me to change my mind. All they have to do is pass a true scientific test. I keep offering to put up a bottle of scotch. It`s been several years now and no one has put up his own bottle and taken on the challenge.
> 
> Wild Bill Busen Amps


Where to start??? I am not a design engineer but I am a guitar player for over 35 years and a sound engineer for major touring acts for over 20 years... I also have been fixing amps since I was 15. And I can tell you tubes absolutely sound different and anyone that says they dint should get his or her ears checked. I don't know how you can even fix an amp with our being able to tell that. Personally I find it offensive that anyone would even want to argue this point. Physics yes let's talk about physics..... Differences in capacitance resistance inductance and last but not least heat of the tube all effect tone... That's physics..... Not only that but gain also changes the perception of tone... "Fletcher Munson curve.


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## Church-Audio

I exclusively use thetubestore for all my customers amps. They never let me down. My fav orate tubes for tone and long lasting service for touring musicians ? 
Tad for 6l6 short or tall bottle or jan Philips if the client has deep pockets.
Tungsol el84 eh el84 and preferred series el84 and tad el84 for clean tones.
Tungsol el34 for anything. Great tube!!! I love the green base tubes but you can't find them anymore. Never had a return on these tubes.
for 6v6 eh tubes sound great so do tads.
Tungsol for 6550 they work in Svt amps and seem to last.
JJ kt88 because they are rugged.
For preamp tubes... Tungsol for the tone I also love tad but they are expensive. 
For 12at7 Nos jan Philips.
every time I see a failure in a preamp tube its a JJ or a eh every single time.....


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## Church-Audio

jtienhaara said:


> I'm going to have to shoot you.
> 
> +1 on the Collier's!
> 
> Just stumbled on this "6L6C Comparison of Current Made Tubes":
> 
> http://www.tubesandmore.com/tech_corner/6l6gc-comparison-current-made-tubes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To me the frequency graph makes it look like the various tubes output slightly different overall levels, but the response dips and peaks are, for all intents and purposes, the same. It's nothing like comparing speaker response graphs, where the peaks and valleys are often vastly different from model to model.
> 
> Thoughts?


i would have to disagree with you analysis of these frequency graphs there is major problems with this test or there is major differences in these response curves. The plots show huge differences when you magnify it also the steps of 5 db are huge they should be using 1 db steps and also make sure the amps outputs are all the same then rerun the tests....just my two cents.


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