# XLR versus Balanced Line in



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I just bought a powered stage monitor for use in the band I'm in. Its a Yorkville YX10P. On the back its got an XLR input labeled "Mic" and a 1/4" input labeled "Balanced Line in". The lead singer has the exact same monitor and where he bought it the music store owner through in a cable that could connect to the XLR input then to the unpowered board, the other end is 1/4". My thought was just to use one of my extra guitar cables (as I was told with a powered monitor that was ok). My question is. Would the modified XLR cable be a better signal, hotter, etc? Or would there be no difference just using 1/4" to 1/4"? The board doesn't have XLR for the monitors so simply using a regular mic cable wouldn't work.


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## R.S.Fraser Sr. (Aug 15, 2009)

MIC inputs are expecting a lower electrical level than LINE inputs are.
LINE inputs are expecting a higher electrical level than MIC inputs are.

A mic level signal into a line level input will appear much too low.
A line level signal into a mic input will appear much to high.

Both inputs are balanced.

But just because you can make it physically fit together by way of adapters or special cables,
does not mean it will fit electrically.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

R.S.Fraser Sr. said:


> MIC inputs are expecting a lower electrical level than LINE inputs are.
> LINE inputs are expecting a higher electrical level than MIC inputs are.
> A mic level signal into a line level input will appear much too low.
> A line level signal into a mic input will appear much to high.
> ...


So just to clarify, because the unpowered board, I can only connect output 1/4" I should simply use the 1/4" Balanced line in?


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## R.S.Fraser Sr. (Aug 15, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> So just to clarify, because the unpowered board, I can only connect output 1/4" I should simply use the 1/4" Balanced line in?


See the reponses in your cross post.
They are more complete than here.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Yes, you can connect a guitar cable from the board output to the line in. It won't be quite as hot, and there might be a slight loss in fidelity, but over that short a distance, the loss in fidelity will be very small. 

The YX10P will probably forgive you for plugging line level into the mic input, but its not ideal.

The optimal solution is to get a balanced 1/4" cable (I.e. TRS connectors on both ends), but the difference will be slight compared to a standard guitar cable.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

R.S.Fraser Sr. said:


> See the reponses in your cross post.
> They are more complete than here.


I read the other post. I get it now. Thanks. Thank you as well bw66. Now I know what to get from L&M today.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

bw66 said:


> The optimal solution is to get a balanced 1/4" cable (I.e. TRS connectors on both ends), *but the difference will be slight compared to a standard guitar cable*.


Not necessarily true. First, the differential input may mean some level loss if you use an unbalanced line - depends on the input circuit there. Second, unbalanced lines will be much more susceptible to noise and interference - the longer the cable the worse it gets. It's HiZ pro line level vs LoZ mic level or amped speaker level where this is less of an issue.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I talked to a guy at Long and Mcquade Hamilton that seemed to know what he was talking about. He was saying that on the YX10P the mic input is only for a mic directly connected to the monitor. If you try to use that for a line level that it would be a very hot signal and distort easily.
I'm reading the manual and it seems like its saying there is no difference between the XLR (mic) input and the balanced 1/4". The manual says they are both balanced. It doesn't say anywhere that its to be used for a mic only. But it does refer to it as a mic input.
I did end up buying a Yorkville Balanced (TRS) 1/4" to 1/4" cable. But from what I see in the manual I'm not sure I understand why a balanced XLR male to 1/4" wouldn't work. The only reason I ask is, if there is a reason that it doesn't work then I have to explain that to the lead singer as thats the cable he is using for his YX10P. The manual states that both inputs XLR and 1/4" are balanced which is my source of confusion.

*From the Manual:*


> *1. Mic In:*
> The balanced XLR microphone input can be used with any dynamic microphone.
> *2. Line In:*
> The balanced XLR & 1/4-inch input can be used with any line source such as an iPod, CD player or an electronic instrument with a line-level signal. It’s always recommended to use balanced sources, this helps prevent the risk of hum or buzz associated with unbalanced connections (especially if the cable is long or the source is operated from a separate AC power connection). The CH2 level control affects both the Mic Input as well as the Line In; it is not recommended to use both at the same time





> *5. Mic Gain Control:*
> The microphone level control adjusts the mic level of the loudspeaker. It also adjusts the mic level on all YX10P enclosures in the chain (if multiple YX10P enclosures are used). The main Level control should be set to maximum when the microphone is being used. *6. Level Control:*
> The level controls (ch.1 & 2) set the level of all sound coming out of the YX10P enclosure. If using multiple enclosures via the link jacks, the first YX10P will control the volume level of the rest of the cabinets. This is true unless another cabinet in the chain has an input signal connected from another source, in which case that level control will also affect the subsequent units down the chain. Please note that if your using the first YX10P as master to slave another YX10P, the level control on the slave unit will not affect the volume level, only the level control on the master will set the volume level on the slave YX10P.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

They are both "balanced", but the voltage of the incoming signal is very different.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> The manual says they are both balanced. It doesn't say anywhere that its to be used for a mic only.


Whaddayamean it doesn't say - it says right there in the pics you posted "Mic" input and "Line" input. Those words actually mean something; the XLR input is NOT labelled "Mix/Line" (which is what they do if that is the intended use).

That said, you can probably do it, but protect things by setting the input trim/gain to the absolute minimum setting, and also the mixer output at -infinity before plugging in and turning on. Then gradually bring up the source and input gains and see what happens. Depending on the circuit, it may be able to take it at a given mixer output level and input gain setting on the monitor but you are living dangerously (mixer output level can change unexpectedly). Personally I would not attempt it unless you have a dedicated soundguy sitting at that board the whole time ... or a brick wall limiter across the mixer output. Best case the occasional signal peak gets distorted; worst case you blow a speaker.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Granny Gremlin said:


> *Whaddayamean it doesn't say - it says right there in the pics you posted "Mic" input and "Line" input. *Those words actually mean something; the XLR input is NOT labelled "Mix/Line" (which is what they do if that is the intended use).
> 
> That said, you can probably do it, but protect things by setting the input trim/gain to the absolute minimum setting, and also the mixer output at -infinity before plugging in and turning on. Then gradually bring up the source and input gains and see what happens. Depending on the circuit, it may be able to take it at a given mixer output level and input gain setting on the monitor but you are living dangerously (mixer output level can change unexpectedly). Personally I would not attempt it unless you have a dedicated soundguy sitting at that board the whole time. Best case the occasional signal peak gets distorted; worst case you blow a speaker.


In the manual it states that the mic input and line input are both balanced. Thats where I was bit confused. That being said I'm going with the information on this forum and I bought a balanced TRS 1/4' to 1/4" cable for the monitor.
The guy at L&M said that using the mic input the signal would be hot and you couldn't move the trim pot up at all. And I remember the lead singer saying that he couldn't move it off 1 or 2 as it was so loud. And he's thinking this is a good thing.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

And I find it a bit annoying that the YX10P is the only powered monitor in the Yorkville line that you don't use the XLR for connecting to a mixer. The other bigger speakers are designed to connect to the mixer with XLR At least thats what I was told at L&M. I realize the YX10P is an entry level powered monitor but this is a bit confusing.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> In the manual it states that the mic input and line input are both balanced. Thats where I was bit confused. That being said I'm going with the information on this forum and I bought a balanced TRS 1/4' to 1/4" cable for the monitor.
> The guy at L&M said that using the mic input the signal would be hot and you couldn't move the trim pot up at all. And I remember the lead singer saying that he couldn't move it off 1 or 2 as it was so loud. And he's thinking this is a good thing.


See what @bw66 said just above my last post there. The signal level is one thing; it's the electricity that is being transmitted. Whether the mechanism used to transmit that signal is balanced or not does not change the actual signal being sent (balanced just means the signal is sent twice, 1 conductor out of phase with the other as a mechanism to reduce noise and interferance) - anything can be balanced (just not everything needs to be). Sometimes mic inputs are unbalanced. Mic and line cables are the same product (whether balanced - XLR or TRS connectors using 2 conductor shielded cable, or unbalanced using TS cables or XLR with pin 3 unconnected on single conductor shielded cable). Think of it this way, both guitars and amp speaker outs are unbalanced on 1/4" TS jacks, so it's totally fine to plug the speaker out into another amp's input right? Randy Bachman learned the hard way (and line into mic isn't nearly as bad, but to illustrate a point dramatically).

I won't even comment on whether the opinions of retail staff and vocalists regarding technical issues deserve any further consideration. The point you raise in your last post just above this one is probably relevant to that discussion, where one to have it.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Granny Gremlin said:


> I won't even comment on whether the opinions of retail staff and vocalists regarding technical issues deserve any consideration in this discussion.


I've never had bad advice from a L&M employee. Other retailers not so much. And vocalists? Well, we've all heard the stories about guitarists who started singing so they didn't have to deal with them. ;-)


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

bw66 said:


> I've never had bad advice from a L&M employee. Other retailers not so much. And vocalists? Well, we've all heard the stories about guitarists who started singing so they didn't have to deal with them. ;-)


There are a lot of L&M employees I think, that don't know maybe as much as they should. However I can usually tell when I'm talking to a knowledgeable L&M staff, and there are many of those as well. I usually can confirm what I'm told by doing my own research and questions on forums like these where many knowledgeable people visit. 
Funny comment about the guitarists who become singers. I've started to take a bigger part in singing my self this year. I didn't think it was to go off on my own so I wouldn't have to deal with singers.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

I did not mean to disparage them (L&M employees); but every company has it's Joes and even the good ones are sometimes in a rush or having a bad day or not paying full attention because they're short staffed that day etc.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

One thing that was not mentioned is what kind of outputs the mixer has. If the 1/4 inch out of the mixer is not balanced, then you would just use a regular 1/4 inch guitar cable to connect to the powered speaker. TRS cable would be pointless is the source is not TRS balanced.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

jb welder said:


> One thing that was not mentioned is what kind of outputs the mixer has. If the 1/4 inch out of the mixer is not balanced, then you would just use a regular 1/4 inch guitar cable to connect to the powered speaker. TRS cable would be pointless is the source is not TRS balanced.


I'm pretty sure I mentioned it there somewhere. The mixing board has 4 balanced monitor auxiliary outs, 1/4"


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