# duty on guitar from US



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I'm thinking of ordering a guitar from Gruhns in the US. The cost is about 7K. Does anyone have any idea what Duty charges might run me?


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

If the guitar was made in north america you won't have any true duty charges,however you will still have to pay HST on the value ,plus shipping and then factor in the exchange rate.
Different carriers have hidden handling charges that can screw you as well,I don't know who Gruhns uses for shipping.

I wouldn't b surprised if 7K US comes in at 9K CAN or over these days .


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I already converted the cost. 7K is the cost of the guitar and the shipping quote I was given in Canadian dollars. This is for a Martin D-28 authentic. The price from Gruhns is $6,800 CA + 150 shipping. The cheapest I've found it in Canada is at L&M for $7,225. And L&M won't be able to get it till maybe June as they are currently back ordered quite heavily. So my alternative is either the one sitting at 12th fret currently for $7,500 or order the one from Gruhns. 
So I can beat the L&M price by approx $250 and have it now. As well I'm beating the 12th fret price by $750. So I guess the only unknown is the hidden handling fees. Is there anyway to find that out ahead of time?


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

you're not saving anything. taxes on that guitar will be at least $900, then there's shipping costs, insurance, and brokerage. if it's coming by ups, brokerage can be up to 40%


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> you're not saving anything. taxes on that guitar will be at least $900, then there's shipping costs, insurance, and brokerage. if it's coming by ups, brokerage can be up to 40%



Yeah thats what I was afraid of. Taxes is taxes regardless of where you buy it. Shipping/Insurance was already quoted at $150. Which still makes the guitar under 7K. The closest quote on that guitar is at 12th fret for $7,500. 
Jon over at MFG said when they ship they declare a value of $500. I guess thats a way to get around the huge brokerage fees? I don't understand why these brokerage fees are so exorbitant. Why aren't costs like that passed to us when we buy a guitar from a music store? They have to get them shipped in to?


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2015)

if you go via 12th fret, is the 10% upcharge worth having it now? I'd also guess 
that if you slapped $6800 cash on the counter, you'd probably walk out with it.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

laristotle said:


> if you go via 12th fret, is the 10% upcharge worth having it now? I'd also guess
> that if you slapped $6800 cash on the counter, you'd probably walk out with it.


I called 12th fret and asked if they'd price match L&M. L&M has it listed on their site for $7,225. The guy hummed and hawed a bit because L&M doesn't actually have it in stock and would have to order it. I'd be happy slapping 7K on the counter and having them accept it.
I guess I'll have to wait till Saturday when I can get down there and hope they still have it. 
I was headed this past Saturday to grab a D-18 Authentic at the Guitar shop in Mississauga that had it at a price that beat L&M (and anyone else) by $700. I won't see that guitar for the same price again. Anyway after losing out on that I figured I'd just step up to the ultimate D-28 and worry about a D-18 later.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

So I'm thinking about this and heres what I've calculated to make an offer for the guitar at 12th fret. The bottom line is rather much less expensive than seems realistic. So what else should I be figuring in?

Martin List price $8,499 US ($10,628 CA)
Martin allows up to 40% discount MAP (Manufactures Advertised Price.
This would total $6,377
Say $150 for shipping the item in to the store
$200 miscellaneous (profit margin, etc)
Total $6,727. 
That sounds like a pretty low offer. Am I figuring this right? Is that realistic or is it just too much of a lowball? 12th frets price is 71% of list. 11% more than the lowest Martin allows.
L&M is charging about 68% of list which isn't bad.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

cheezyridr said:


> you're not saving anything. taxes on that guitar will be at least $900, then there's shipping costs, insurance, and brokerage. if it's coming by ups, brokerage can be up to 40%


I was going to say that...UPS BROKERAGE fees are approaching criminal. Many outfits in the US quote the shipping costs, but not the Brokerage fees. 
U.P.S. = ULTIMATE POSTAGE SCAM


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> Jon over at MFG said when they ship they declare a value of $500. I guess thats a way to get around the huge brokerage fees?


This is a _*terrible*_ idea. If they declare a value of $500 and the guitar is lost or destroyed in transit, you're out of luck with your $7000 claim. Declaring a lower value is probably mail fraud and a felony, too.

If you opt to buy from Gruhn, I see two options:

1) Use Fedex overnight for shipping. I think they include brokerage, but confirm with them. Twice.
2) Have it shipped to a location near the border and drive there yourself to get it. You'll pay taxes on re-entry into Canada but you will not pay brokerage.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

You live about an hour from the border. Have it shipped to the UPS Depot at Porter and Packard Rd. in Niagara Falls, NY (cross and Queenston/Lewiston bridge) and bring it back yourself. All you will have to pay is HST and $4.00 bridge toll.

- - - Updated - - -



pattste said:


> This is a _*terrible*_ idea. If they declare a value of $500 and the guitar is lost or destroyed in transit, you're out of luck with your $7000 claim. Declaring a lower value is probably mail fraud and a felony, too.
> 
> If you opt to buy from Gruhn, I see two options:
> 
> ...


With #1 you pay brokerage. It's just included in the shipping cost so you don't see it as a separate item.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Tomorrow I'm going to go up to the 12th fret and have a look at the D-28 Authentic they have there and see if I can swing a deal that makes sense so that I won't have to go through this border stuff.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

cheezyridr said:


> you're not saving anything. taxes on that guitar will be at least $900, then there's shipping costs, insurance, and brokerage. if it's coming by ups, brokerage can be up to 40%


incorrect.

brokerage on a $7000 item would be $130

on a side note, I _personally_ feel if I was buying a $7,000 guitar, I'd want to play it first....but that's just me....


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

blam said:


> incorrect.
> 
> brokerage on a $7000 item would be $130
> 
> on a side note, I _personally_ feel if I was buying a $7,000 guitar, I'd want to play it first....but that's just me....


Yeah taking this concept a step further some suggest I should play several of the same guitar as many think that inconsistencies in build are such that it takes several before you find "The One". However I'm lucky to find even one music shop with in hours that even stock a 7K guitar. So I've found one at 12th fret and even though I'll get a chance to play it, I have to hope its one of the good ones. In the end I'll have to simply trust that Martin has built these Authentic as close to the prewar Martins well and consistently.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2015)

guitarman2 said:


> So I've found one at 12th fret and even though I'll get a chance to play it, I have to hope its one of the good ones.


They don't have to know how many Martins you've played before trying this one.
Search for/find something wrong with it. Even if you have to complain about it's
sound quality or something. Your lower offer will reflect this. I'm sure they don't 
move high priced equipment too much. Worth a shot. However, if they kick you 
out of the store for being ridiculous, don't blame me for taking my advice. lol.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Bottom line ordering from Gruhns in Nashville

Guitar $5150
Shipping $1147.68
Pearl permit $100 (What is a Pearl permit?)
Total shipped insured to address you provided below is;
$5,397.68 This equates to $6,753.36 Canadian
I called UPS and got a rough estimate on brokerage fees comes to $150.

So total is $6,903.36 as long as there is no duty. UPS said there'd have to be some sort of certification that confirms that the guitar is made in North America. So thats a potential hassle. As well I have native status so could walk in to a store here and only pay 5% tax where as an online purchase may not apply so would either pay 13% or cause a hassle trying to pay only 5%.
So if I pay the 13% tax total is $7,800
Or if I can get 12th fret to come down from there asking price of $7,500 to $7,200 with tax total = $7,560
Even if I can get away with only paying 5% on the US import the total would be $7,249 a savings of $311. While it would be good to save $311 potentially the savings could be less and I see some possible hassles. I could order it and end up paying more.
Guess I'll have to wait and see what 12th fret can do for me tomorrow.

Either way. Can someone tell me what a "Pearl Permit" is?

Probably the biggest deal killer in this is the fact that I can't use my credit card. They accept bank wire transfer only.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

is there mother of pearl somewhere on the guitar?

they might be charging you to import it based on that.


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## Guest (Mar 24, 2015)

that's it. check it out here http://www.fws.gov/permits/faqs/FaqFGH.html
scroll down to guitar. which brings up the fingerboard. is it brazilian rosewood?


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

i believe its ebony.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

blam said:


> i believe its ebony.



Yes its ebony. And as far as I know there is no need for Cites on Madagascar rosewood. I had to recheck the specs: https://www.martinguitar.com/model/item/3273-d-28-authentic-1941.html I can't see anywhere that I would need a CITES permit. The guy from grhuns did get back to me and said: 



> The peal permit is for the US Fish and Wildlife Department. It has to do with the CITES treaty. Every instrument that has pearl and is being exported must have it by US law.


I can't find any pearl stated on the specs. The only possibility is this:


> Fingerboard Position Inlaysiamonds & Squares - Long Pattern golden Era - Circa 1941


 The only thing I can think is that the position inlays are pearl but you think Martin would say that. Especially as a selling feature.
Anyway I think its now a deal breaker as the guy from Gruhns says in his 10 years there shipping many guitars to Canada that there is always a duty. So based on not much if any potential savings, if not more expensive and potential hassles I'll either grab the one 12th fret if its still there tomorrow and can be negotiated to at least match L&M or I'll just order from L&M and wait till June or whenever. Or maybe wait till Folkway or someone else gets one in. Some music stores already have orders in for one dating back a while and would probably get them quicker than a new order from L&M
Wonder why anyone would order from the US when there doesn't seem to be any benefit. I was in Nashville about 3 weeks ago. Wish I'd gone to Gruhns then.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> the guy from Gruhns says in his 10 years there shipping many guitars to Canada that there is always a duty.


Frankly, he doesn't know what he is talking about. If it's purchased in the USA and you pick it up you pay HST. I have done it many, many times including items from China. He may be mixing up some of the other charges with duty. I have found that several times with USA dealers. They have no idea about shipping product to Canada and call extra shipping charges and other fees, duty when it's not duty at all.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

A Martin dealer is telling me (not 12th fret) that if I buy a Martin from a US dealer that I will not receive the life time warranty. If true another reason not to buy from the US.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> A Martin dealer is telling me (not 12th fret) that if I buy a Martin from a US dealer that I will not receive the life time warranty. If true another reason not to buy from the US.


Is that a Canadian Martin dealer? If you buy from the USA and have a problem with it, he is under obligation to honour the warranty even if he sold the guitar to someone living in the basement of the Taj Mah-al.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> Is that a Canadian Martin dealer? If you buy from the USA and have a problem with it, he is under obligation to honour the warranty even if he sold the guitar to someone living in the basement of the Taj Mah-al.



I learned from the Martin forum that only Martin guitars purchased in the US or Canada are entitled to the lifetime warranty. There are people in Europe that purchase Martin guitars from the US simply for the warranty. So I imagine if I buy from the US I'm covered.


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## Guest (Mar 25, 2015)

Verify for sure through email. 
For that kind of money, I'd make sure.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

guitarman2 said:


> .
> Anyway I think its now a deal breaker as the guy from Gruhns says in his 10 years there shipping many guitars to Canada that there is always a duty.


UPS, although they are the devil's spawn, gets a really bad rap for "duty". if you know their system, they can be a great service. I've been using UPS often in the last 4 years and have not given them much money for brokerage or duty. for example, I've purchased about 10k in camera gear from the states over the 5 years or so and ALL of it was shipped via UPS and I have not paid a single penny in duty or brokerage to them.

anyways, i digress, my point is simply because of UPS's bad reputation, the majority of people do not understand what they are paying when UPS give them a bill and many will just assume it's a duty charge or a brokerage fee, when in fact, most of the time it's just Canadian sales taxes that make up the majority of the bill.

the guy from Gruhns is 100% mistaken, as anything made in the USA is free of duty.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

blam said:


> UPS, although they are the devil's spawn, gets a really bad rap for "duty". if you know their system, they can be a great service. I've been using UPS often in the last 4 years and have not given them much money for brokerage or duty. for example, I've purchased about 10k in camera gear from the states over the 5 years or so and ALL of it was shipped via UPS and I have not paid a single penny in duty or brokerage to them.
> 
> anyways, i digress, my point is simply because of UPS's bad reputation, the majority of people do not understand what they are paying when UPS give them a bill and many will just assume it's a duty charge or a brokerage fee, when in fact, most of the time it's just Canadian sales taxes that make up the majority of the bill.
> 
> the guy from Gruhns is 100% mistaken, as anything made in the USA is free of duty.


I would think you've paid brokerage but it's included in the shipping charge. These companies can charge what they like and invoice it how they like. FedEx does the same on their air shipments and a lot of people think they don't charge brokerage. It's there but you don't see it; you only pay for it.


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