# Anti - Vaxers



## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

As far as I am concerned some of them should be put in jail if their children develop polio. As someone who contracted it back in 1955 I can tell you the downfall is so much that parents need to be charged with a crime of child abuse.








Why has polio been found in New York, London and Jerusalem?


Polioviruses recently found the cities were mutated versions of viruses that originated in oral vaccines meant to stamp out the disease.




www.cbsnews.com




At 69 I go to sleep crying and I wake up crying form the pain and the twitching of my nerves and muscles and when they fire the long nerves well I can only tell you that its excruciating. And we wont talk about the other things it does.
Polio was thought to be eradicated from almost the whole world so parents got complacent with vaccinating against it. 
And now we see it has morphed into something new.
To this day I still remember the old iron lung and the sounds in my head and thats never going to go away but because I spent so much time in it I now can't use positive pressure fore my other lung problems.
I can tell you that its one disease I wish they could completely eradicate from our planet so we never have to see kids in a iron lung or wear braces ( not cheap can run well over $5000.00 and kids will go through at least a dozen or more before they stop growing )
thats my rant hope that it doesn't get pulled but what can you do right.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

My cousin had polio and was an iron lung for a long time then he needed a bunch of surgeries. It all messed him real bad for life.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

My father-in-law had polio as a child, and lived with its impacts for the rest of his days. I would never inflict that on my kids.

But hey, these people "did their own research."


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I don't judge those who wish to forgoe vaccines. I'm not anti-vax. Had all mine as a kid and all my kids did. During the pandemic I got the first 2. After that no more. All the mixed information made me doubt the efficacy. When it comes to covid I'll be happy with keeping my self as healthy as possible but for those other things like polio and other diseases we're vaccinated against, they've been around a long time and are proven so every one really should get them. But if someone chooses not to thats their business.


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## Skynyrds Innyrds (5 mo ago)

guitarman2 said:


> I don't judge those who wish to forgoe vaccines. I'm not anti-vax. Had all mine as a kid and all my kids did. During the pandemic I got the first 2. After that no more. All the mixed information made me doubt the efficacy. When it comes to covid I'll be happy with keeping my self as healthy as possible but for those other things like polio and other diseases we're vaccinated against, they've been around a long time and are proven so every one really should get them. But if someone chooses not to thats their business.


But they aren't choosing not to for themselves, they are choosing for their kids and risking their kids' health. As the OP has made clear, Polio is for life and what kind of selfish SOB would subject their kids to that?


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## Verne (Dec 29, 2018)

How many of these anti-vaxxers that refuse to have their child/children "stuck", would run to the hospital for a tetanus shot after stepping on a rusty nail?!? Same thing in my eyes. Preventative. Science in general seems to be going by way of the old popular velour track suits.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Skynyrds Innyrds said:


> But they aren't choosing not to for themselves, they are choosing for their kids and risking their kids' health. As the OP has made clear, Polio is for life and what kind of selfish SOB would subject their kids to that?


Parents should have the right to choose for their children regardless of what you think. When I raised my children I didn't take a community poll on all my decisions. And I guarantee, just like every parent not all of my decisions were right. I would love to do some things over but I certainly wouldn't want government over reach telling me what to do. 
Not in a world where people are demonized for refusing their childrens vaccines but celebrated for putting them on hormone blockers.


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## markxander (Oct 24, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> Parents should have the right to choose for their children regardless of what you think. When I raised my children I didn't take a community poll on all my decisions. And I guarantee, just like every parent not all of my decisions were right. I would love to do some things over but I certainly wouldn't want government over reach telling me what to do.
> Not in a world where people are demonized for refusing their childrens vaccines but celebrated for putting them on hormone blockers.


i think this is a you problem
i am going to do my part to get this thread locked by telling you to go fuck yourself


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

markxander said:


> i think this is a you problem
> i am going to do my part to get this thread locked by telling you to go fuck yourself


I can just imagine what you teach your kids.


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## Jaime (Mar 29, 2020)

guitarman2 said:


> Parents should have the right to choose for their children regardless of what you think. When I raised my children I didn't take a community poll on all my decisions. And I guarantee, just like every parent not all of my decisions were right. I would love to do some things over but I certainly wouldn't want government over reach telling me what to do.
> *Not in a world where people are demonized for refusing their childrens vaccines but celebrated for putting them on hormone blockers.*


Ignoring the obvious stupidity of thinking that parents are some kind of god over their children, I'd love to hear you expand on this last part.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> I can just imagine what you teach your kids.


Dignity and respect. If you deny your kid vaccines and bodily autonomy (ex. transgender) you’re doing neither. Do you know the main suicide reduction treatment for lgbtq?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Budda said:


> Dignity and respect. If you deny your kid vaccines and bodily autonomy (ex. transgender) you’re doing neither. Do you know the main suicide reduction treatment for lgbtq?


Thinking children between the ages of 3 and 9 have the capacity to make intelligent decisions on their body has to be the definition of insanity.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> Thinking children between the ages of 3 and 9 have the capacity to make intelligent decisions on their body has to be the definition of insanity.


If only that were the definition of insanity.

you didnt answer my question.


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## markxander (Oct 24, 2009)

this thread still not locked yet? all these boomers just wanna keep loving abusing prescription drugs and keep hating trans people


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## Griff (Sep 7, 2016)

Ship of fools said:


> As far as I am concerned some of them should be put in jail if their children develop polio. As someone who contracted it back in 1955 I can tell you the downfall is so much that parents need to be charged with a crime of child abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I share your sentiment, and I'm very sorry for your suffering.

Like the more recent vaccines, polio vaccines aren't 100% effective, so they rely on high uptake to keep the population safe. Our population tends to get complacent when problems aren't right in front of our eyes.

Obviously parents have a right to choose medical treatments for their children. What upsets me is that decisions about vaccines are made based on bad information, rather than reality.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Ship of fools said:


> As far as I am concerned some of them should be put in jail if their children develop polio


Maybe, first and foremost, should be drug manufacturers, which have immunity from prosecution, that more in the population are losing trust in?

From the article;

_The original source of the virus? The oral vaccine itself.

Genetic analyses showed that the viruses in the three countries were all "vaccine-derived," meaning that they were mutated versions of a virus that originated in the oral vaccine.

"We probably could never have gotten on top of polio in the developing world without the (oral polio vaccine), but this is the price we're now paying," said Dr. Paul Offit, director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. "The only way we are going to eliminate polio is to eliminate the use of the oral vaccine."

"In hindsight, maybe it would have been better not to use this vaccine, but at that time, nobody knew it would turn out like this."_


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

I did not write this to cause us to fight but to have an intelligent conversation. Guitarman2 you have a right to decide for yourself but what happens if the worst thing happens. You need to understand you are not only protecting your kids but the kids they play with and go to school with and such and can you imagine the shite if one of yours passed it on to someone else's kids.
Polio is not like our corona virus, this one is worse because I doubt very much that you could afford braces and let us not forget physio and water physio they are going to need and I can tell you that shoes well it costs me over $300.00 for a set and I get a great deal and how many shows do one set of kids go through before their feet stop growing so much to consider for such a small thing like a shot in the arm.
They don't use a live virus here in Canada and there isn't anything in the other to cause any harm so why not, please tell me what worries you so that I can at least understand your position


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

For the record the oral vaccine is only used in countries outside of the so called free world because it is so cheap but the price of the other vaccine is also gotten cheaper and is being made readily available through out the world.
And let us not forget this is one doctors opinion not completely based on all info.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Ship of fools said:


> And let us not forget this is one doctors opinion not completely based on all info.


One doctor's opinion?! Did we read the same article?

_Scientists have long known about this extremely rare phenomenon, officials in Israel, British authorities reported finding evidence in sewage that the virus was spreading, Genetic analyses showed that the viruses in the three countries were all "vaccine-derived," the World Health Organization and its partners._


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Uh oh, WHO...


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## Robhotdad (Oct 27, 2016)

markxander said:


> i think this is a you problem
> i am going to do my part to get this thread locked by telling you to go fuck yourself


I have a feeling your not so "vocal" in person face to face. Son, you have to accept that other folks don't always share your views. Four letter words and an inability to keep one's mind open are not the cornerstones of higher thought. What's that saying? Fast to anger, slow to reason. Now you can cancel me


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)




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## Jim Wellington (Sep 3, 2017)

I can`t believe someone would start a thread like this without realizing how it would turn out. One sided conversations only please. After all, social compliance is all the rage these days.


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## Jaime (Mar 29, 2020)

Robhotdad said:


> I have a feeling your not so "vocal" in person face to face. Son, you have to accept that other folks don't always share your views. Four letter words and an inability to keep one's mind open are not the cornerstones of higher thought. What's that saying? Fast to anger, slow to reason. Now you can cancel me


I have a feeling *you're not a hot dad in person face to face.


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## Robhotdad (Oct 27, 2016)

I can't believe this is a guitar forum.


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## markxander (Oct 24, 2009)

Robhotdad said:


> I have a feeling your not so "vocal" in person face to face. Son, you have to accept that other folks don't always share your views. Four letter words and an inability to keep one's mind open are not the cornerstones of higher thought. What's that saying? Fast to anger, slow to reason. Now you can cancel me


cancelled, get the fuck out of here


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Polio ain't one of them it's no different than a bad cold kinda things but yeah, it's all about ma freedums and them guitar faces - mostly it's probably about the faces .. lol


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Robhotdad said:


> I can't believe this is a guitar forum.


Well, don't believe it then. Lottsa other guitar forums around if this one doesn't meet your expectations.


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## Verne (Dec 29, 2018)

Robhotdad said:


> I can't believe this is a guitar forum.


I can't believe it's not butter!!


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

There are in vaccine market as other markets good and less necessary things, good use and abuse.

Polio vaccine, and other kids vaccines, were all good public health advancements and stil are.
These are nothing to fool with.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Vaccines are immunotherapy and carry the same risks of immune related and adverse effects as other biological drugs and immunotherapies. Vaccines are not single ingredient drugs (antigen only), but multi-ingredient preparations to intensively challenge the immune system in a manner of an actual disease. Contaminants (excipients) not removed by the manufacturing process remain in significant amounts.
For more than 70 years we have been stimulating the immune system with little monitoring to understand long term immune system response.
If you increase the number of interventions/vaccines, you increase the likelihood of adverse reactions. The MMR, polio, varicella live attenuated vaccines contain human contaminants (MRC5 cells, human WI-38 (aborted babies), lung cells, monkey kidney cells, guinea pig cell cultures, bovine serum. How many shots are kids up to nowadays?
Vaccine induced fever and immune stimulation can cause regressive brain disease with features resembling autism spectrum disorder. Vaccines drain mitochondrial reserves.....mitochondrial dysfunction is a highlight of autism.
By massive inoculations we have broken down the barriers between humans and animals. In the 30's French doctors in Africa used reusable glass syringes to treat sleeping sickness and later polio injections. Between 1957-60, in the Belgian Congo they killed and used chimpanzees and bonobos (pygmy chimps) kidneys and sera to grow the oral polio vaccine, which was then administered to a million Africans. Can you say cross reactive species contamination.
HIV came from the primate SIV (Simian immunodeficiency virus)....SV40 was found in live polio vaccines given to kids in North America in the late 50's (I remember this one).
Trace the patterns of Ebola cases around the world since first encountered in 1976. This is a fun one to look at.
Why do you think Africans were so hesitant to take the Covid shots.....They've seen this rodeo before and remember the fall out.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Robhotdad said:


> I can't believe this is a guitar forum.


I'm a moderator on a few forums: high-end audio, music, cars, etc. They all have OT and have varying degrees of intensity - this is as normal as blinking your eyes.


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## Jim Wellington (Sep 3, 2017)

Robhotdad said:


> I can't believe this is a guitar forum.


Actually, it`s a testing ground for social collectivism, not a guitar site, hence my previous post. 

Too bad they`ve shit on you, as you didn`t say anything unreasonable. You`ll have to forgive them,they drink, ya know...alot!


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Ship of fools said:


> As far as I am concerned some of them should be put in jail if their children develop polio. As someone who contracted it back in 1955 I can tell you the downfall is so much that parents need to be charged with a crime of child abuse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Polio vaccines have always been one of the more stable ones, conferring life long immunity for most. I wrote what I did above to show some variations of what has transpired in other countries. Wild polio is endemic in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Nigeria, so it's still circulating and campaigns of mass vaccination have run in to more than one obstacle. Here's a paper from Africa showing widespread re-emergence of vaccine derived poliovirus....lot's of variations out there nowadays.








Emergence of Vaccine-derived Polioviruses, Democratic Republic of Congo, 2004–2011


Vaccine-Derived Polioviruses, DRC




wwwnc.cdc.gov


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

The above CDC article was from 2015. Here's a news report from 2019 with a rather disturbing headline concerning Africa. 








More polio cases now caused by vaccine than by wild virus


More polio cases now caused by vaccine than by wild virus as 4 African countries report them




abcnews.go.com


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## hfisher3380 (Mar 5, 2006)

HighNoon said:


> Vaccines are immunotherapy and carry the same risks of immune related and adverse effects as other biological drugs and immunotherapies. Vaccines are not single ingredient drugs (antigen only), but multi-ingredient preparations to intensively challenge the immune system in a manner of an actual disease. Contaminants (excipients) not removed by the manufacturing process remain in significant amounts.
> For more than 70 years we have been stimulating the immune system with little monitoring to understand long term immune system response.
> If you increase the number of interventions/vaccines, you increase the likelihood of adverse reactions. The MMR, polio, varicella live attenuated vaccines contain human contaminants (MRC5 cells, human WI-38 (aborted babies), lung cells, monkey kidney cells, guinea pig cell cultures, bovine serum. How many shots are kids up to nowadays?
> Vaccine induced fever and immune stimulation can cause regressive brain disease with features resembling autism spectrum disorder. Vaccines drain mitochondrial reserves.....mitochondrial dysfunction is a highlight of autism.
> ...


The "link" between MMR - and any - vaccines - and autism has been debunked. It's not hard to do - look at the rate of autism between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals.

Don't have the time to determine how truthful the rest of your diatribe is but you lost your credibility with the autism nonsense.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

hfisher3380 said:


> The "link" between MMR - and any - vaccines - and autism has been debunked.


Sure would like to see some 'links' to back that up.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

hfisher3380 said:


> The "link" between MMR - and any - vaccines - and autism has been debunked. It's not hard to do - look at the rate of autism between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals.
> 
> Don't have the time to determine how truthful the rest of your diatribe is but you lost your credibility with the autism nonsense.


Wakefield's lawyer moved way too quick to get into court. There were a couple more years research and evidence that was needed before going that route. The rest of the diatribe as you call it, is easy to look at through historical records.


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## hfisher3380 (Mar 5, 2006)

laristotle said:


> Sure would like to see some 'links' to back that up.


If you haven't found any evidence then you are either ignorant, biased to begin with or haven't tried.

Here is a large peer-reviewed study published in one of the world's top medical journals:

*Jain, Marshall et al, "Autism Occurrence by MMR Vaccine Status Among US Children with Older Siblings With and Without Autism". JAMA 2015 313(15) 1534-1540

Conclusions and Relevance *In this large sample of privately insured children with older siblings, receipt of the MMR vaccine was not associated with increased risk of ASD, regardless of whether older siblings had ASD. These findings indicate no harmful association between MMR vaccine receipt and ASD even among children already at higher risk for ASD.

There are TONS of others but I've done enough of your homework for you. I'd love to see some credible evidence of a link between MMR and autism. Please show us what ya got that has eluded all of the world's experts!


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

I'm just here to learn from all the experts. Who knew there were so many on a guitar forum. 🤷‍♂️


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## Griff (Sep 7, 2016)

zztomato said:


> I'm just here to learn from all the experts. Who knew there were so many on a guitar forum. 🤷‍♂️


It's a funny thing about the internet. We SHOULD all be getting smarter, but mostly it's just made the stupid people louder and more confident in their stupidity.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

hfisher3380 said:


> If you haven't found any evidence then you are either ignorant, biased to begin with or haven't tried.


No, I haven't looked because I didn't make the claim.
You're referencing private, western studies.
How about the ones in Africa that Highnoon talks about that were not the same?
That's what you challenged.


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## hfisher3380 (Mar 5, 2006)

laristotle said:


> No, I haven't looked because I didn't make the claim.
> You're referencing private, western studies.
> How about the ones in Africa that Highnoon talks about that were not the same?
> That's what you challenged.


No - I provided ONE study for you from the medical literature. From JAMA - one of the premiere medical journals in the world. There are a TON more but it's a chore to copy and paste them all. Honestly, look it up yourself. Conversely, other than Andrew Wakefield's completely discredited fraudulent study, no evidence whatsoever has been provided for a link between any vaccine and autism - because there actually IS no evidence. None.

Unless you can provide some. I'm willing to believe ANYTHING provided sufficient evidence is provided.


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

Perhaps being able to accept consequences of ones own actions and then learn from that as a starting point rather then qouting internet cyber claims. The internet has certainly elevated misinformation to the extent that we can all sound like experts with ZERO education required.
Trust in peer reviewed science is NOT a bad way to research and learn.


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## hfisher3380 (Mar 5, 2006)

dgreen said:


> Perhaps being able to accept consequences of ones own actions and then learn from that as a starting point rather then qouting internet cyber claims. The internet has certainly elevated misinformation to the extent that we can all sound like experts with ZERO education required.
> Trust in peer reviewed science is NOT a bad way to research and learn. Keep a thesaurus handy for the big words.


For sure. The internet HAS made it far easier to spread misinformation. And in the case of medical misinformation it can literally kill you. Vaccination rates have been decreasing and we are now seeing more and more measles outbreaks. This all started because of Wakefield's fraudulent study which the misinformation spreaders continue to latch onto despite the fact that the entirety of the medical community actually familiar with the literature has moved far beyond that nonsense.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

As to the original post by Mr. Ship Of Fools it was about anti vaxxers. This polio has nothing to do with anti vaxxers (whatever that is). This polio is derived from oral polio vaccines. I included a paper from the CDC in 2015 mapping out such events in Africa (and a little history about inoculations in Africa). No surprise, 7 years later it finds it's way to North America, especially a large city on the coast. Given the fact that most cases don't lead to paralysis, and that most people and kids have been inoculated with the injectable given in N. America, it shouldn't be a problem.
However there are always mutations and given the state of the recent mass inoculations in North America. and subsequent repeated inoculations, who knows what will transpire.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

hfisher3380 said:


> No - I provided ONE study for you from the medical literature. From JAMA


I asked for it because it dealt with your disagreement with Highnoon.
Your link doesn't deal with anything about Africa, which you challenged in his post.
That's all.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

markxander said:


> i am going to do my part to get this thread locked by telling you to go fuck yourself





markxander said:


> this thread still not locked yet? all these boomers just wanna keep loving abusing prescription drugs and keep hating trans people





zztomato said:


> I'm just here to learn from all the experts. Who knew there were so many on a guitar forum. 🤷‍♂️





Griff said:


> It's a funny thing about the internet. We SHOULD all be getting smarter, but mostly it's just made the stupid people louder and more confident in their stupidity.


Sure would be nice if people that choose to comment would stick to a topic, pro or con, rather than be that obnoxious child that interrupts the adults.


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## Griff (Sep 7, 2016)

laristotle said:


> Sure would be nice if people that choose to comment would stick to a topic, pro or con, rather than be that obnoxious child that interrupts the adults.


Ah yes, the adults who believe vaccines cause autism, rather than reducing or eliminating infectious and dangerous diseases. Sorry!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

My favourite part about these threads is it shows who should be on the ignore list pretty quick.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Griff said:


> Ah yes, the adults who believe vaccines cause autism, rather than reducing or eliminating infectious and dangerous diseases. Sorry!


And what if you're wrong?


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Budda said:


> My favourite part about these threads is it shows who should be on the ignore list pretty quick.


Go for it. But then, why bother advertising it?


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

You fellows, this is exactly why we aren't allowed to talk about things that aren't guitars..... 

Perhaps instead of insulting one another, just offer some opinions and or facts, try maybe to see what it is that the other side is talking about and have a genuine discourse. It would be much more beneficial than an argument and name calling.

We can still agree to disagree and perhaps even learn a thing or two from each other. It is ok to hold opposing views, it is not ok to oppose one another because of your views


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## Griff (Sep 7, 2016)

laristotle said:


> And what if you're wrong?


I'm not.

But if you're asking if I'd rather my kids have autism instead of being dead, well what do you think?


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## Griff (Sep 7, 2016)

Mark Brown said:


> You fellows, this is exactly why we aren't allowed to talk about things that aren't guitars.....
> 
> Perhaps instead of insulting one another, just offer some opinions and or facts, try maybe to see what it is that the other side is talking about and have a genuine discourse. It would be much more beneficial than an argument and name calling.
> 
> We can still agree to disagree and perhaps even learn a thing or two from each other. It is ok to hold opposing views, it is not ok to oppose one another because of your views


The problem is that there are now 2 realities in the world. Facts no longer matter because so many people believe an alternate set of them.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Griff said:


> Ah yes, the adults who believe vaccines cause autism, rather than reducing or eliminating infectious and dangerous diseases. Sorry!





Griff said:


> Ah yes, the adults who believe vaccines cause autism, rather than reducing or eliminating infectious and dangerous diseases. Sorry!


This is what I wrote....
Vaccine induced fever and immune stimulation can cause regressive brain disease with features resembling autism spectrum disorder. Vaccines drain mitochondrial reserves.....mitochondrial dysfunction is a highlight of autism 
Not quite what you wrote. But given the results, the reasons that many have looked into a co-relation. Personally I think more study is needed.
Stable vaccines can be quite effective at reducing or eliminating infectious diseases as you say. Too bad in this case as posted, the oral polio vaccines have not proved to do so.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Griff said:


> The problem is that there are now 2 realities in the world. Facts no longer matter because so many people believe an alternate set of them.


So convince them of the counter argument, don't try and convince them they are wrong. Thst is just a poor position from which to launch a debate.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Mark Brown said:


> So convince them of the counter argument, don't try and convince them they are wrong. Thst is just a poor position from which to launch a debate.


And this is why you play a Strat Plus.....the complexities of sound therein are endless.


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## Griff (Sep 7, 2016)

Mark Brown said:


> So convince them of the counter argument, don't try and convince them they are wrong. Thst is just a poor position from which to launch a debate.


You're right, of course. Sorry for my poor behaviour, but I've wasted so much time on that over the last 3 years.

About 6 years ago, I went down a deep rabbit hole of flat-earthism. I tried to figure out how people could believe such an outlandish theory while ALL available evidence suggested they were wrong. My work is in a field in which the curvature of the earth is one of many basic assumptions. I realized then that people have become willfully ignorant. Essentially flat-earthers know so little about general science, that they don't even realize how little they know. While the extremity of that situation isn't paralleled here, the general idea stands true.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I'm vaxxed, my kids are, and my grandkids. I have no dog in this race.
Got people in the family that are not of the "old fashion" sexual orientation that I have no issue with, and am actually quite fond of.
I'm a boomer.
Do what you think is best for you and good luck to you all.


Gosh, I'm a minority.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Griff said:


> You're right, of course. Sorry for my poor behaviour, but I've wasted so much time on that over the last 3 years.
> 
> About 6 years ago, I went down a deep rabbit hole of flat-earthism. I tried to figure out how people could believe such an outlandish theory while ALL available evidence suggested they were wrong. My work is in a field in which the curvature of the earth is one of many basic assumptions. I realized then that people have become willfully ignorant. Essentially flat-earthers know so little about general science, that they don't even realize how little they know. While the extremity of that situation isn't paralleled here, the general idea stands true.


I can understand your frustration. I really can. There are many thing I disagree with my wife on, the preceding conversation is a lot of it however at the end of the day, you cannot change what someone thinks. All you can do is present evidence to the contrary. It is up to people to decide for themselves what they are want to believe, be that right or wrong in your eyes or contrary to what you know is true. It is easy to get frustrated, it is in our nature, especially when our beliefs are challenged to their core. The thing everyone forgets in most debates, especially where ones belief is concerned is that while what you say may seem so self evident to you, to the person across from you, the same could be said of exactly the opposite of what you believe. It can get heated very quickly, it is in our higher nature to overcome the base instinct to persecute those of us that are not of our tribe. 

As for flat earthers, well, they are just having a gas at everyone. They know the world is round, but man it must be fun to watch everyone jump up and down and get so upset about what they believe


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Each new day.
Is just a sliver through the blinds.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

zztomato said:


> I'm just here to learn from all the experts. Who knew there were so many on a guitar forum. 🤷‍♂️


Well, they've done the research....


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Mark Brown said:


> Ss for flat earthers, well, they are just having a gas at everyone. They know the world is round, but man it must be fun to watch everyone jump up and down and get so upset about what they believe


Myuncle knew a guy that joined the Flat Earth Society for the fun of it. He was fully Team Ovoid, but thought some skepticism was healthy. Also, I think they served drinks....


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Rollin Hand said:


> Myuncle knew a guy that joined the Flat Earth Society for the fun of it. He was fully Team Ovoid, but thought some skepticism was healthy. Also, I think they served drinks....


I can honestly say that personally, I cannot faithfully state that I have definitive proof that the earth is round (or close enough). I can however claim that there is sufficient evidence for be to believe it.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

The earth is round through the week and it is square on Sundays. I thought everyone knew that. I don’t really give a fucking rats ass what shape the earth is it ain’t no matter to me… lol


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## Jim Wellington (Sep 3, 2017)

Budda said:


> My favourite part about these threads is it shows who should be on the ignore list pretty quick.


But at that point, you would have no one to insult. Where`s the fun in that for you?
Please start with me, you`ll miss nothing of value...according to you.

On a brighter note...

I like the guys who offered something of value in this thread. They weren`t many in number , but a couple of links and posts were interesting and worth the time.
Thanks.


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## Griff (Sep 7, 2016)

Mark Brown said:


> As for flat earthers, well, they are just having a gas at everyone


Yeah, no you are very wrong about that.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Griff said:


> Yeah, no you are very wrong about that.


Sadly I know, but it is much easier on me to believe what I believe. See how that can work to ones benefit. The truth is not always beneficial


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

laristotle said:


> Sure would be nice if people that choose to comment would stick to a topic, pro or con, rather than be that obnoxious child that interrupts the adults.


Ok man, I was just making light of all the divisiveness. Don't take so hard- as Keef would say.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Wardo said:


> The earth is round through the week and it is square on Sundays. I thought everyone knew that. I don’t really give a fucking rats ass what shape the earth is it ain’t no matter to me… lol


In my younger days I had an Italian girlfriend who was shaped like the earth.....round in all the right places and in places I had never imagined.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

zztomato said:


> Ok man, I was just making light of all the divisiveness. Don't take so hard- as Keef would say.


The Winos were the tightest sloppy band I've ever heard....Damn they were good.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

HighNoon said:


> In my younger days I had an Italian girlfriend who was shaped like the earth.....round in all the right places and in places I had never imagined.


when I was grade 11 or maybe 12 I had an Italian girlfriend and she lived in Willowdale and she was under age. I had a 66 impala, she was lean and hot and on probation we had a good time but she was dumb as a bag of hammers and when the summer came rollin down the line i packed my bags and went to Europe.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Wardo said:


> when I was grade 11 or maybe 12 I had an Italian girlfriend and she lived in Willowdale and she was under age. I had a 66 impala, she was lean and hot and on probation we had a good time but she was dumb as a bag of hammers and when the summer came rollin down the line i packed my bags and went to Europe.


283 or 327?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

laristotle said:


> Go for it. But then, why bother advertising it?


not advertising, suggesting to others. 



Mark Brown said:


> You fellows, this is exactly why we aren't allowed to talk about things that aren't guitars.....
> 
> Perhaps instead of insulting one another, just offer some opinions and or facts, try maybe to see what it is that the other side is talking about and have a genuine discourse. It would be much more beneficial than an argument and name calling.
> 
> We can still agree to disagree and perhaps even learn a thing or two from each other. It is ok to hold opposing views, it is not ok to oppose one another because of your views


this assumes people are willing to change their minds on a subject. We all know this is not always the case. It is also fairly obvious 9 of 10 times whether someone will even change their minds when presented with proof. This thread is a fine example.

when I was a kid, I thought most adults must be smart. It turns out I was wrong!


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

HighNoon said:


> 283 or 327?


283 … lol


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Wardo said:


> 283 … lol


Nice! First engine I ever bought. Was looking for a Vega Kammback to put it in but I sold it first.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Budda said:


> this assumes people are willing to change their minds on a subject. We all know this is not always the case. It is also fairly obvious 9 of 10 times whether someone will even change their minds when presented with proof. This thread is a fine example.


It does not specifically assume you can change someone's mind. Quite the contrary in fact. The object of debate is not to change the mind of the person with whom you are debating. The purpose is simply to state your case, to the best of your ability and then let people choose. Now I will agree that this exercise has become increasingly futile, or maybe it has always been futile but what I hate to see the the art lost. There is a fine line between a debate and an argument however neither should really devolve to insults. 

I do take your meaning quite plainly however and would tend to agree with the sentiment.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Nice! First engine I ever bought. Was looking for a Vega Kammback to put it in but I sold it first.


The LG4 was another run forever small 8. Good enough power for every day and did the job. I have a ZZ4 crate sittin around that I need to get rid of. Old vette aluminum heads with no EGR.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Mark Brown said:


> It does not specifically assume you can change someone's mind..


we’re talking about cars now and hot looking young Italian women. Fuck the vaccine and the horse it rode in on .. lol


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

If you vote in the United States using a computer, major league baseball will give you monkey pox.

i’ve done my research.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

traynor_garnet said:


> If you vote in the United States using a computer, major league baseball will give you monkey pox.
> 
> i’ve done my research.


Do go on, I am intrigued by the prospect as I have long distrusted major league baseball and their reluctance to automate umpires.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Mark Brown said:


> Do go on, I am intrigued by the prospect as I have long distrusted major league baseball and their reluctance to automate umpires.


Or provide vision coverage in their health insurance package...


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## hfisher3380 (Mar 5, 2006)

laristotle said:


> I asked for it because it dealt with your disagreement with Highnoon.
> Your link doesn't deal with anything about Africa, which you challenged in his post.
> That's all.


As I said…my link is from the medical literature. Knowing the medical literature is part of my job.

I challenged his post because I’m familiar with the medical literature and knew he was posting BS.

Why did you ask me for evidence but not Highnoon, out of curiosity?


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Mark Brown said:


> Do go on, I am intrigued by the prospect as I have long distrusted major league baseball and their reluctance to automate umpires.


only if you know the secret handshake

but not secret in the elitist way. ‘Real people’ type secret


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## hfisher3380 (Mar 5, 2006)

HighNoon said:


> This is what I wrote....
> Vaccine induced fever and immune stimulation can cause regressive brain disease with features resembling autism spectrum disorder. Vaccines drain mitochondrial reserves.....mitochondrial dysfunction is a highlight of autism
> Not quite what you wrote. But given the results, the reasons that many have looked into a co-relation. Personally I think more study is needed.
> Stable vaccines can be quite effective at reducing or eliminating infectious diseases as you say. Too bad in this case as posted, the oral polio vaccines have not proved to do so.


Study has been done. I even gave you a reference. There is NO credible evidence of any link between any vaccine and autism. None. 

You clearly don’t want to believe that, but it doesn’t make it any less true.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

I had a 283 and 2 speed slushbox in a 64 Custom Sport (Parisienne but not badged as such) convertible. Big boat, would do 70-75 comfortably in first, cruise/float down the highway in 2nd at that speed all day with 1 finger on the wheel. I had more adventures with that car than any other I owned. I heard many good stories about the rpm and durability of 283s back then. Run in circles all day.


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## hfisher3380 (Mar 5, 2006)

Griff said:


> You're right, of course. Sorry for my poor behaviour, but I've wasted so much time on that over the last 3 years.
> 
> About 6 years ago, I went down a deep rabbit hole of flat-earthism. I tried to figure out how people could believe such an outlandish theory while ALL available evidence suggested they were wrong. My work is in a field in which the curvature of the earth is one of many basic assumptions. I realized then that people have become willfully ignorant. Essentially flat-earthers know so little about general science, that they don't even realize how little they know. While the extremity of that situation isn't paralleled here, the general idea stands true.


Actually yes, it is paralleled here a bit. Anyone who suggests that vaccines cause autism knows so little about medicine and science that they don’t even realize how little they now and how actively ignorant they are. It’s the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.


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## Griff (Sep 7, 2016)

hfisher3380 said:


> Actually yes, it is paralleled here a bit. Anyone who suggests that vaccines cause autism knows so little about medicine and science that they don’t even realize how little they now and how actively ignorant they are. It’s the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.


Hmmm maybe you're right.... but I didn't say it


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## tuumbaq (Feb 5, 2014)

Wtf is this crap ?


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

hfisher3380 said:


> Study has been done. I even gave you a reference. There is NO credible evidence of any link between any vaccine and autism. None.
> 
> You clearly don’t want to believe that, but it doesn’t make it any less true.


This is what I wrote...
Vaccine induced fever and immune stimulation can cause regressive brain disease with features resembling autism spectrum disorder. Vaccines drain mitochondrial reserves.....mitochondrial dysfunction is a highlight of autism. 
A lot of people were looking at thimerosal (as an adjuvant) and mercury in general as a form of neuro toxin, which it is, and depending on amount can do some damage. There was a study in Denmark that said it wasn't the sole culprit in all the drama of the day concerning vaccines/autism, although it could be a trigger. And sure enough when it was removed it didn't stop the trend of an increase in the autism numbers.
I went through this one a long time ago (2002).... 40 years of data.... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/277241195_Vaccines_and_Autism
It's a real good study on a multitude of levels, from environmental (vaccines are part of the environment) to biological agents as factors in determining the development of autism. It focuses a lot on inflammatory responses and the cascading effects neurologically as there is little data on the neurodevelopment effects of vaccines over the years. It's a good read.
Biomarkers in autism include mitochondrial function, oxidative stress, and immune function. Russel Blaylock, a now retired neurosurgeon, focused on the effects of over stimulating the microglia (macrophage like cells that live in the Central Nervous System). They are like sentinels for the immune system, and can create a very strong inflammatory response. His paper from 2008 is here....the other papers on the page are interesting as well...








A possible central mechanism in autism spectrum disorders, part 1 - PubMed


The autism spectrum disorders (ASD) are a group of related neurodevelopmental disorders that have been increasing in incidence since the 1980s. Despite a considerable amount of data being collected from cases, a central mechanism has not been offered. A careful review of ASD cases discloses a...




pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov




And yes I've read some of the papers saying there is no link between vaccines and autism. Quite a few of them focus on the mercury connection, which as I mentioned above is only one factor. I try to stay away from the 'smoking gun' approach and look at multiple factors involved. It's difficult to say vaccines are not responsible, since autism has increased by 200% since the 80's which coincides with the ramp up of the number of shots for kids. Is it necessary to give a Hep B shot to a newborn, when the mother is not at risk....not a drug user etc. 
Can we over vaccinate....over stimulate the immune system to the point of exhaustion or create an inflammatory cytokine storm through constant inoculations. And there's always the question of money involved, along with numerous law suits over the years that address negative drug interactions, and vaccine injuries (a topic in the forefront today).


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

Some people don't want get vaccinated, due to their flawed Political and Religious beliefs.
Seems like a suicidal / Rapture Death Cult belief system.
Sadly, Darwinism wins again .


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## hfisher3380 (Mar 5, 2006)

HighNoon said:


> This is what I wrote...
> Vaccine induced fever and immune stimulation can cause regressive brain disease with features resembling autism spectrum disorder. Vaccines drain mitochondrial reserves.....mitochondrial dysfunction is a highlight of autism.
> A lot of people were looking at thimerosal (as an adjuvant) and mercury in general as a form of neuro toxin, which it is, and depending on amount can do some damage. There was a study in Denmark that said it wasn't the sole culprit in all the drama of the day concerning vaccines/autism, although it could be a trigger. And sure enough when it was removed it didn't stop the trend of an increase in the autism numbers.
> I went through this one a long time ago (2002).... 40 years of data.... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/277241195_Vaccines_and_Autism
> ...


You are giving links to laboratory research and quoting hypotheticals. Again, this has actually been looked at in humans. There is NO LINK between vaccines and autism. Again, these are straightforward studies - compare the rates of autism between vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. There is no difference.

If there were a difference, then it would be time to do lab research and try to figure out why. But there is no difference.

End of story.

Edit - here are a few studies from Denmark encompassing more than a MILLION patients in two of the most high-impact journals that exist in medicine:









Measles, Mumps, Rubella Vaccination and Autism: A Nationwide Cohort Study: Annals of Internal Medicine: Vol 170, No 8


Background: The hypothesized link between the measles, mumps, rubella (MMR) vaccine and autism continues to cause concern and challenge vaccine uptake. Objective: To evaluate whether the MMR vaccine increases the risk for autism in children, subgroups of children, or time periods after...



www.acpjournals.org













A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism | NEJM


Original Article from The New England Journal of Medicine — A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism



www.nejm.org





To repeat…NO DIFFERENCE in autism rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated. None. This is as close to ”definitive” as you can get in medicine.


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

a quick google search of the "Autism research Institute"
and I find this:





Autism Research Institute


The Autism Research Institute is an organization that promotes the idea that autism can be "cured" through extensive behavior modification. They were formerly known as Defeat Autism Now![1] They appear on Quackwatch's list of "questionable research entities".[2] Even Jenny McCarthy's Generation...




rationalwiki.org


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## hfisher3380 (Mar 5, 2006)

HighNoon said:


> This is what I wrote...
> Vaccine induced fever and immune stimulation can cause regressive brain disease with features resembling autism spectrum disorder. Vaccines drain mitochondrial reserves.....mitochondrial dysfunction is a highlight of autism.
> A lot of people were looking at thimerosal (as an adjuvant) and mercury in general as a form of neuro toxin, which it is, and depending on amount can do some damage. There was a study in Denmark that said it wasn't the sole culprit in all the drama of the day concerning vaccines/autism, although it could be a trigger. And sure enough when it was removed it didn't stop the trend of an increase in the autism numbers.
> I went through this one a long time ago (2002).... 40 years of data.... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/277241195_Vaccines_and_Autism
> ...


One more thing. The mercury-containing preservative thimerosal was never a clinically significant concern in the amounts that it was used in multi dose vaccine vials. Sure, mercury is theoretically potentially toxic - everything is potentially toxic depending on how much is consumed. Even water. But in the amounts contained in vaccines, mercury / thimerosal never was.

Despite this, we removed all of it from vaccines and switched to single-dose vials (despite the increased cost) mostly because the thought was that perhaps this would decrease vaccine reluctance amongst the uneducated. It is NO surprise that there has been no clinically significant effect of removing thimerosal.


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## hfisher3380 (Mar 5, 2006)

dgreen said:


> a quick google search of the "Autism research Institute"
> and I find this:
> 
> 
> ...


LOL - even the “expert” Jenny McCarthy thinks they’re quacks.


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