# Time for a new LDC mic, thoughts..,?



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I returned the loaner Rode NTK and C414 yesterday so it is time for a new large diaphragm condenser. I've convinced myself a C214 is the right choice but I'm really drawn to the C4000B as well. Should I give serious thought to something else in the same price range? Uses will included, room mic for jams, capturing guitar cabs, acoustic guitar, drum overhead, ...not vocal stuff. Room is treated.

ps- not for professional use or results, just at home in the basement stuff


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Hard to go wrong with a C214, but the multi-pattern capability of the C4000B would appeal to me as well.


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

Vadsy, if you can ask your L&M to look for an Apex 550 (discontinued, unfortunately)
They’re based on the AKG. 1/4 of the price...


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

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Warm Audio - WA-87 Classic 87 Style Large Diaphragm Condenser Microphone


Warm Audio - WA-87 Classic 87 Style Large Diaphragm Condenser Microphone




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I’d also suggest jumping into a TLM 102/103 or an AEA ribbon if you can find one used.

The only thing I’d look at is it’s floor noise.
Don’t want to end up with an SM7B or ‘57 type mic that requires a shit load of boost. Because from far away. It’s hard to get clarity without huge floor noise.

This all depends on what kind of input / plugins you are using.

But ya, I’ve heard good things about Warm audio and antelope, I’ve also had a Royer R10 that would serve this application well in the past.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

bzrkrage said:


> Vadsy, if you can ask your L&M to look for an Apex 550 (discontinued, unfortunately)
> They’re based on the AKG. 1/4 of the price...
> View attachment 353045


I just gave an Apex a try, the 415, but it got moved along.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Always12AM said:


> Kijiji - Buy, Sell & Save with Canada's #1 Local Classifieds
> 
> 
> Visit Kijiji Classifieds to buy, sell, or trade almost anything! New and used items, cars, real estate, jobs, services, vacation rentals and more virtually anywhere.
> ...


I considered a couple of these, even that exact same SolidTube Kij ad. The AT stuff is on the list, have not heard of Antelope (thanks, will look), the Warm 87 is too much for my needs but I should have a closer look at their other stuff. Tried the Origin, didn't do it fo me. 103 would be killer but I can't justify it for my use. Ribbon is next on the list, Fathead is nice enough but would like to try the SE stuff. Had a SM7B on loan but I didn't bond with it, vocally it works and I've been around to witness that but I don't have much use for that at home.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

vadsy said:


> I just gave an Apex a try, the 415, but it got moved along.


I've been looking at a 415 - mainly so that I have something in the stable that will do omni and figure-8. What didn't you like about it?


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

vadsy said:


> I considered a couple of these, even that exact same SolidTube Kij ad. The AT stuff is on the list, have not heard of Antelope (thanks, will look), the Warm 87 is too much for my needs but I should have a closer look at their other stuff. Tried the Origin, didn't do it fo me. 103 would be killer but I can't justify it for my use. Ribbon is next on the list, Fathead is nice enough but would like to try the SE stuff. Had a SM7B on loan but I didn't bond with it, vocally it works and I've been around to witness that but I don't have much use for that at home.


I meant to mention SE as well.
That’s what’s Chris Stapletons tour kit is comprised of.

I haven’t tried most of the mic’s I mentioned, but I’ve seen them in use at studios and they all got the job done.

I only have $200- and $2000+ Mic’s at the moment. I skipped the 102-103 and went straight to a TLM49 and same with the royer, I went straight to the R122. The rest are shure staples. I do have one in the middle range, it’s an Earthworks SR20, it’s nearly impossible to blow out and it’s incredible quiet and HD. But it’s very honest and sterile compared to the other mic’s mentioned, definitely utilized for sibilance and detail capture.

I’m dying to land a C414 and a an AEA ribbon.
But I’m really intrigued by SE and Warm.

I’d love to try some warm and JDK compressors and preamps. 

If I ever get the chance, the Antelope would be awesome, it’s like the Kemper of mic’s.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

bw66 said:


> I've been looking at a 415 - mainly so that I have something in the stable that will do omni and figure-8. What didn't you like about it?


don't judge me, it was silly but in the end it just came down to that it wasn't an AKG of some sort(which is what I had in mind but kinda don't care as much anymore). ...and it helped me land a 421 and 57 for 90 bucks each as I bought it in a package and sold it to basically keep the other mic costs low.

it sounded decent enough, maybe a tad bit of floor noise I didn't like and I heard some early clipping once in a while recording loud cabs,., that probably could have been fixed with more attention to pads, lower gain, placement. I actually really liked the form factor, smaller overall so it didn't need a crane to support it. construction was a mix, inside it looked kinda budget, outside it looked and felt pretty good. the only thing legit to complain about was the tube of the body would rotate and mess with the switches for patterns/pad/rolloff, drove me nuts, but that could have been due to age or wear and tear


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Always12AM said:


> I meant to mention SE as well.
> That’s what’s Chris Stapletons tour kit is comprised of.
> 
> I haven’t tried most of the mic’s I mentioned, but I’ve seen them in use at studios and they all got the job done.
> ...


Have you ever tried anything by Advanced Audio?


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

vadsy said:


> Have you ever tried anything by Advanced Audio?


Not as of yet!
I’m always interested in more stuff to check out though.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

vadsy said:


> Have you ever tried anything by Advanced Audio?


Right now I’m on the look out for a 1 or 2 input compressor that is comparable to an LA2A but not 75 million dollars.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

vadsy said:


> don't judge me, it was silly but in the end it just came down to that it wasn't an AKG of some sort(which is what I had in mind but kinda don't care as much anymore). ...and it helped me land a 421 and 57 for 90 bucks each as I bought it in a package and sold it to basically keep the other mic costs low.
> 
> it sounded decent enough, maybe a tad bit of floor noise I didn't like and I heard some early clipping once in a while recording loud cabs,., that probably could have been fixed with more attention to pads, lower gain, placement. I actually really liked the form factor, smaller overall so it didn't need a crane to support it. construction was a mix, inside it looked kinda budget, outside it looked and felt pretty good. the only thing legit to complain about was the tube of the body would rotate and mess with the switches for patterns/pad/rolloff, drove me nuts, but that could have been due to age or wear and tear


Well I just pulled the trigger on a used 415 - should have it in a couple of days. Got it through L&M at a fair price and paid the extra two bucks so I can return it to my local store if I don't like it. Even if I keep it and upgrade one day, I should be able to re-coup most of my investment.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

bw66 said:


> Well I just pulled the trigger on a used 415 - should have it in a couple of days. Got it through L&M at a fair price and paid the extra two bucks so I can return it to my local store if I don't like it. Even if I keep it and upgrade one day, I should be able to re-coup most of my investment.


after posting about it yesterday I went back to have a listen to it in some of the saved mic comparisons I keep, sounded good. I think you'll be happy.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

vadsy said:


> .... I think you'll be happy.


Looks like a case of delayed gratification - just got a note from L&M - looks like someone was purchasing in-store as I placed my order.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

bw66 said:


> Looks like a case of delayed gratification - just got a note from L&M - looks like someone was purchasing in-store as I placed my order.


I don't know what the store was asking,., and I wish I had know earlier but I would have happily passed mine to you for a reasonable deal.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

vadsy said:


> I don't know what the store was asking,., and I wish I had know earlier but I would have happily passed mine to you for a reasonable deal.


Thanks! They seem to come and go on Gear Hunter fairly regularly - I'm sure that this won't be my last opportunity to pick something up.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

bw66 said:


> ... I'm sure that this won't be my last opportunity to pick something up.


It would seem that the Kingston store felt bad - they have located another one in Oshawa and are lowering the price to match. I'm just waiting on some pics to confirm that it's in decent shape. Oshawa is pretty much home turf for me, so it looks like I'll also save the shipping. Not getting my hopes up, but it sounds promising.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

hah. just like that the Gear Hunter repeats itself. 

I'm reading your posts and thought I'd check local listings, sure enough something cool and on my list to try. but it was already sold and they hadn't taken it down yet. not a large condenser but a cute little ribbon mic I read good things about


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

My advice: avoid cheap condensers (including budget models from respected brands). I have never found an LDC <1k that was worth owning. Look at a Peluso 414, if you can up your budget. Otherwise consider a large diaphragm condenser (Shure SM7, EV E20, Senheisser 421, even the Heil PR30 or 40 which are even cheaper), or a ribbon (the Apex 205 or 210 are great cheap mics - I use them on vocals, drums and guitar all the time). No they're not LDCs, but you'll get a mic without high end issues for the same price or less... if less get 2 very different mics and you have choice or can blend.

I own exactly 1 LDC now (have owned and used others, including budget models like Rode, Apex etc) - a Gefell UM70. Worth every penny but I can't afford another one (price has gone up on the used ones since I got mine; new ones are also good though a little different in the electronics hence name change to UMT70 but the important bit, the capsule, is the same; about the same price or a hair cheaper than a vintage/used UM70 ~2k). For a bit cheaper (and cardioid only) there's the UM(T)71. More Neuman than a Neuman


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Otherwise consider a large diaphragm condenser (Shure SM7, EV E20, Senheisser 421, even the Heil PR30 or 40..


do you mean dynamic cardioids?


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Granny Gremlin said:


> My advice: avoid cheap condensers (including budget models from respected brands). I have never found an LDC <1k that was worth owning. ...


Certainly, if I ever get to the point of recording for anything other than my own entertainment, I would start to look at investing in better mics, but for my purposes, the budget mics work just fine. My fingers and brain are currently the weak links in my recording chain so an expensive mic would be the equivalent of me buying a 14oz mountain bike - there are cheaper gains to be had above the belt. 😁


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

bw66 said:


> Certainly, if I ever get to the point of recording for anything other than my own entertainment, I would start to look at investing in better mics, but for my purposes, the budget mics work just fine. My fingers and brain are currently the weak links in my recording chain so an expensive mic would be the equivalent of me buying a 14oz mountain bike - there are cheaper gains to be had above the belt. 😁


You misunderstand, I'm not saying you have to own an expensive LDC to get amazing results; I'm saying you don't need an LDC _at all_ to get amazing results, and can in fact do better with a different mic type if you don't want to spend on a great LDC. ... and that cheap LDCs can make you sound worse and less pro (e.g anything Apex; OK for guitars if dirty; the harshnes and brittleness of the top end actually works for that, but for anything else it sounds a bit trashy/sibilant - LDCs are renowned for their amazingly extended high end, but what use is more high end if it's shitty? It's all about the capsule, and good condenser capsules cost $$$, period). That's the industry con; that you need an LDC to sound pro (and that a budget one will get you there); horse shit. Get a tried and true workhorse that isn't full of compromises to make it affordable and mass-marketable. And whatever you do avoid tube condensors if on a budget. Trust me, I learned that the hard way. For the price of a 214 you can get any of the dynamics I listed and be better off. This is not just my opinion; it's a pro secret.

There have been entire classic rock records recorded with no LDCs. Most modern metal and hip hop uses the SM7 exclusively for vocals (as does Bruce Springsteen and others). The Radiohead live album was recorded will all RE20s. Fuck, Bono only ever uses a fricken SM58 for chrissakes (yes, even in studio, and he could have anything he wants), not that I recomend that approach.



vadsy said:


> do you mean dynamic cardioids?


Well, I mean a lot of them (all the ones I listed) are cardioid, but just like condensors come in small and large diaphram flavours, so do dynamics. Large Diaphragm Dynamics are a category historically associated with broadcast use and exemplified by the models I listed, but there's others that are not cardioid (e.g. the 421's sibling, the 441 which is supercardioid - narrower front lobe for focus, but the trade off is a baby back lobe like a very asymetrical fig 8). These are not handheld vocal mics.

If your space is good and you know what you're doing supercards, omnis and 8s can be great. If not stick with cardioids, but be aware of proximity effect (the closer you get to the mic with a source the more exaggerated the bass will be; boomy and plosive vox for example). Some LD Dynamcs have bass rolloff switches for this (421, is really nice because progressive from mild to aggressive filter, Sm7 has 1 or 2 bass rolloff settings and a midrange - boost or cut forget now offhand) and others have acoustric chambers built in to nearly eliminate proximity effect (e.g. RE20... which also has a filter switch that it totally doesn't need, which is why the Heils that copy it don't). Then again sometimes that boominess is desired to enhance, e.g. a breathy intimate, low pitched and steady vocal. 

Omni mics (or a multipatterns set to omni) have no proximity effect at all. Figure 8s have the biggest proximity effect (part of why ribbons sound so cool but dangerous; they also have much more dynamic range which can be usefull, as can the null points in a figure 8 pickup pattern).

So yeah, a lot of these started off as broadcast mics, but found their way into studios for almost every other application you can think of, e.g. RE20s are legendary on vocals as well as kick drum and bass cabs. You'll see 421s used as vocal mics as far back as 60s Hamburg (LDCs were too delicate/expensive/feedbacky, and handhelds weren't as good yet) and still today as go-to tom mics; I love them for guitar and bass cabs too.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

> Otherwise consider a large diaphragm condenser (Shure SM7, EV E20, Senheisser 421, even the Heil PR30 or 40 which are even cheaper)


You mean Dynamic Cardoids right?


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Granny Gremlin said:


> You misunderstand...


Yes I did misunderstand. Thanks for the clarification.

For me, the appeal of the 415b is the ability to have a figure 8 polar pattern and, to a lesser degree, omni. Are there large diaphragm dynamic mics with switchable polar patterns?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Chito said:


> You mean Dynamic Cardoids right?


lol, do you have me in ignore?

I’m sure you don’t.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

vadsy said:


> lol, do you have me in ignore?
> 
> I’m sure you don’t.


LOL Oops, I missed your post. I don't think I have anyone in ignore.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Granny Gremlin said:


> You misunderstand, I'm not saying you have to own an expensive LDC to get amazing results; I'm saying you don't need an LDC _at all_ to get amazing results, and can in fact do better with a different mic type if you don't want to spend on a great LDC. ... and that cheap LDCs can make you sound worse and less pro (e.g anything Apex; OK for guitars if dirty; the harshnes and brittleness of the top end actually works for that, but for anything else it sounds a bit trashy/sibilant - LDCs are renowned for their amazingly extended high end, but what use is more high end if it's shitty? It's all about the capsule, and good condenser capsules cost $$$, period). That's the industry con; that you need an LDC to sound pro (and that a budget one will get you there); horse shit. Get a tried and true workhorse that isn't full of compromises to make it affordable and mass-marketable. And whatever you do avoid tube condensors if on a budget. Trust me, I learned that the hard way. For the price of a 214 you can get any of the dynamics I listed and be better off. This is not just my opinion; it's a pro secret.
> 
> There have been entire classic rock records recorded with no LDCs. Most modern metal and hip hop uses the SM7 exclusively for vocals (as does Bruce Springsteen and others). The Radiohead live album was recorded will all RE20s. Fuck, Bono only ever uses a fricken SM58 for chrissakes (yes, even in studio, and he could have anything he wants), not that I recomend that approach.
> 
> ...


dude, you are a lot of information and I appreciate it. that being said, I'd like to try owning/using a LDC (and not the friggin tubed ones) in my space. I am starting to second guess my C214 choice, maybe something different (still LDC) but with more patterns perhaps. recommend away but I've always had success with finding a deal on something well known enough to sell with minimal 'rental fees' if I decide not to keep it

also. what would you say if I wanted to record a room (treated to some degree) with bass, drums and guitars using a couple of mics in the centre, set to figure 8(?), set up on top of each other at 90 degrees to cover the whole room. a couple of ribbons or LDCs?

ps- and this is not for pro results, lets call them loose jams
pps- the 421 is a killer mic, I dig what youre saying about it


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

bw66 said:


> Yes I did misunderstand. Thanks for the clarification.
> 
> For me, the appeal of the 415b is the ability to have a figure 8 polar pattern and, to a lesser degree, omni. Are there large diaphragm dynamic mics with switchable polar patterns?


Fair enough. There are omni and very nearly 8ish supercardioid dynamics but not much switchable (the only ones I can think of are vintage). That said, ribbons are 8. And cheap. And great.

There is the argument that a Swiss Army knife is neither a very good knife nor a very good can opener, but I get the value and utility side of the debate as well.



vadsy said:


> dude, you are a lot of information and I appreciate it. that being said, I'd like to try owning/using a LDC (and not the friggin tubed ones) in my space. I am starting to second guess my C214 choice, maybe something different (still LDC) but with more patterns perhaps. recommend away but I've always had success with finding a deal on something well known enough to sell with minimal 'rental fees' if I decide not to keep it
> 
> also. what would you say if I wanted to record a room (treated to some degree) with bass, drums and guitars using a couple of mics in the centre, set to figure 8(?), set up on top of each other at 90 degrees to cover the whole room. a couple of ribbons or LDCs?
> 
> ...


Also fair.

I am a fan of minimal stereo room-at-once micing techniques. Mid/side is a personal fave, and what you describe sounds like Blumlein (google it adding "stereo mic technique" for some how toos). For M/S you need a proper figure 8 (symetrical, so none of the Apexes - I've tried), as well as a cardioid. For Blumlein you just need 2 identical fig 8s (does not matter if they are perfectly symetrical 8s, so rock those cheap Apexes here) and it's basically like an x/y pair but with figure 8s, as you say, oriented at 90 deg to each other with the midpoint (45 deg) being center (vs M/S where the front of the cardioid is center, and the 8 is Left AND right... and you need to 'decode' that later, but which has the added advantage of allowing you to tweak the stereo spread in post and 100% mono compatibility, but lets not get side tracked with that business).

The benefit of Blumlein (vs regular x/y coincident pairs) is that you get more room ambiance (from the rears of both 8s) vs just direct sound from coincident cardioids (and it's cool bc you get direct front left L and then ambiance from whatever is on the rear right, on the left channel and vice verse - can be nicely atmospheric... I mean I do that anyway when mixing guitars discretely recorded - dry signal panned to some degree one way and the reverb send for that guitar the other... or more of it the other way; you get the idea). Unlike coincident onmis you have those usefull side null points of the 8s so things don't get too murky or nearly mono; wider stereo spread is possible. The disadvantage is you're gonna hear the room at least a bit so you better like the way that room sounds. You can adjust this to some degree with how close to the band the mic pair is, but you don't want to get too close to the drums (usually centerish) vs guitars to either side so may not be too much wiggle room in your case. Have everyone jam and walk around (or on your knees rather because that's probably the mic height) and find where the balance is good in the room; put yer marker for the pair there.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

yes, I was referring to the Blumlein method. and what you're saying about capturing the room ambience is my goal but you are right, it may be too much in a small space. either way, I just got a line on a pair of cascade fatheads that I can grab on loan to try this out. will still have to wait for the Rona to give us a break


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Check out Advanced Audio. He's in western Canada. I bought a U47 clone many years ago after reading some good reviews. I talked with him. He has been repairing mics for many many years. Neumann, all the top brands. He told me in the 90's there were only really expensive mics, and really bad cheap mics. He talked to the manufacturers of the cheap mics in China and found that they could make good mics, but the customers were saying cheaper cheaper cheaper. So he went there and got them to build mics to his specifications. 



I bought this one and it's a really nice mic.















Microphones - FET | Advanced Audio Microphones







advancedaudio.ca


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

that’s too funny. I sent them a mic to repair this morning. and my neighbour just got his 47 from them a few weeks ago. He loves it


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

vadsy said:


> that’s too funny. I sent them a mic to repair this morning. and my neighbour just got his 47 from them a few weeks ago. He loves it


Why are you even asking about mics? Get one from Advanced Audio.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

player99 said:


> Why are you even asking about mics? Get one from Advanced Audio.


lol. not really what I’m after and it’s silly to get the same thing, or so closely similar, as the next door guy I swap gear with constantly. need something different


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

vadsy said:


> lol. not really what I’m after and it’s silly to get the same thing, or so closely similar, as the next door guy I swap gear with constantly. need something different


Get a different model? Everybody likes a U87


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