# Wiring up a Cab



## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Hey guys, this is another dumb question. Tried google with no luck. People are terrible at explaining things. Anyway, I have this really cool vintage twisted wire in 18/2 gauge . I see most people twist 2 wires together but what they don't say is if they are using twisted pair for positive and a twisted pair for negative, or is the twisted pair split to pos and neg? I've read I can use 18 gauge for 4ohm up to about 25 feet, I know a lot of guys use 12, but for my setup and volume it is overkill. The cable from amp to cab will be 10 feet.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

knight_yyz said:


> .....the twisted pair split to pos and neg


This...One wire to positive and one wire to negative. 
Nice, fancy lookin' wire you got there.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Yep; just be careful you keep it straight which wire is which at both ends since the wires look to be both plain vs 1 marked for polarity (use a meter or some other continuity test to be sure; measure twice cut once sorta thing).


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

I cant believe that a question can be so confusing....
As best I can tell, your making up a 10' cable to go from your amp to the speaker box.

Speaker cable only have a positive wire and a negative wire...
The end that plugs in to the amp ( lets say its soldered to the tip portion) you can call it positive...
This same single wire needs to be soldered to the tip of the speaker box jack.
How you follow this wire in a twisted cable from your pic is up to you. MAybe only one wire has some printing on it. Most do.

Do the same for the negative wire and your done.

G.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Yep; just be careful you keep it straight which wire is which at both ends since the wires look to be both plain vs 1 marked for polarity (use a meter or some other continuity test to be sure; measure twice cut once sorta thing).


Excellent reminder.

Because I use continuity all the time, I forget that others might not be aware of how easy and important/beneficial it is to use...and then I forget to mention it.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

GTmaker said:


> How you follow this wire in a twisted cable from your pic is up to you. MAybe only one wire has some printing on it. Most do.


If you use continuity (as suggested), you don't have the pain of trying to follow one wire in a twisted pair. 

I doubt cloth covered wire (as pictured) will have any markings....especially on one wire only. 
Maybe I'm wrong...I was once...in 1963


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

GTmaker said:


> I cant believe that a question can be so confusing....


BTW...The *question* is not confusing at all and I'm sure the OP is pleased to get a variety of answers.


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## blueshores_guy (Apr 8, 2007)

The way I read the question, he's asking about using 4 wires to go from amp to speaker, not 2. Two twisted pairs, in other words.
For a run of 10 feet, it's hard to imagine you'd need 2 wires for the positive and 2 for the negative. Unless he's got a 300W amp, there's not a lot of current travelling down those wires.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

greco said:


> BTW...The *question* is not confusing at all and I'm sure the OP is pleased to get a variety of answers.


As I can see already by your 4 responses to a " simple question" I am sure you will add another 137 on how to wire up a 10' speaker cable.
You really should try and explain the "continuity" factor..... sounds interesting.
Maybe the tools needed ( type and quality of meters, setting for best results, where to buy good quality meters to insure a proper reading.)

I tend to use speaker cable that is marked ( printed) on one side and this provides all the continuity I need.
G.


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## mr trick (Sep 21, 2013)

can alway put some red heat shrink on the pos wire, both ends


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

GTmaker said:


> I tend to use speaker cable that is marked ( printed) on one side and this provides all the continuity I need.


Yes (obviously - you don't need to check if the wire is labelled), but the OP's question is about using this specific wire (which appears to not have such markings). 



mr trick said:


> can alway put some red heat shrink on the pos wire, both ends


Sure, but what we're talking about is figuring out which wire is positive at each end so you label them correctly in the first place. Frankly I wouldn't bother (labeling permanently) because you can always unscrew the jack's shell and see what's conected to tip, but I would use (e.g. ) a piece of masking tape to mark the +ve wire after checking with a meter so I don't get the leads mixed up again before soldering/crimping/etc.


To nobody in particular:
Seriously; if you have cables (never mind make them) you need a multimeter (or a cable tester; I rec a meter because more versatile and actually usually cheaper). Most will make a noise so you don't even need to look at the meter/tester, just touch the leads and listen. It takes 2 seconds to check, and then you KNOW. Not think you know, not hope it's right; certainty. Following a conductor in a twisted pair is such a pain - takes longer and half the time, and I know from experience, you get it wrong because of the twisting (when 2 like conductors as regards appearance, as in this situation - too easy to make a mistake) - there's no mistakes with a meter.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

GTmaker said:


> I am sure you will add another 137 on how to wire up a 10' speaker cable.


If 137 or more are needed to help a fellow GC forum member...YES, I would indeed.




GTmaker said:


> You really should try and explain the "continuity" factor..... sounds interesting.


It is not a factor...it is a test. Google is your friend.



GTmaker said:


> Maybe the tools needed ( type and quality of meters, setting for best results, where to buy good quality meters to insure a proper reading.)


Again, if the OP wanted to look into getting a DMM, I would be happy to contribute and to learn what others suggest, etc. I find electronics oriented threads very interesting and learn a lot from them.



GTmaker said:


> I tend to use speaker cable that is marked ( printed) on one side and this provides all the continuity I need.


Yes...but the OP didn't!

I buy the twisted wire that is different colours and inside an external rubber coating ....made by Rapco.

@Granny Gremlin and I were posting at the same time..he won...LOL


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

That wouldn't be a choice for speaker cable for me, unless I needed something and it was all I had. 

18 gauge is a little light, but will be OK for short runs. But no dedicated indication of separate conductors is just asking for trouble. Plus, I find that cloth covering abraids very easily and can expose copper, which can let the smoke out. And we all know those cables are filled with smoke, because when the smoke comes out, they quit working. That stuff, IMO, is better for fixed installations like inside an amplifier. Even though it looks cool.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

High/Deaf said:


> That wouldn't be a choice for speaker cable for me, unless I needed something and it was all I had.
> 
> 18 gauge is a little light, but will be OK for short runs. But no dedicated indication of separate conductors is just asking for trouble. Plus, I find that cloth covering abraids very easily and can expose copper, which can let the smoke out. And we all know those cables are filled with smoke, because when the smoke comes out, they quit working. That stuff, IMO, is better for fixed installations like inside an amplifier. Even though it looks cool.


I'm assuming you mean 'frays' up there. This is a fair point, but shouldn't be a huge concern - I'd worry more if this would be running across the room on the floor getting stepped on, but not is down behind the amp, along the edge of the wall to the cab. Once could also use clear shrink tubing if worried or if the cable is to be exposed to abuse. Might make it a bit stiff, but it'll look cool.

Re 18 guage - I use it everywhere. Not an issue with amps 200 watts or less; 16 is a standard safe bet for any reasonably forseeable instrument amp situation (anything bigger than that is wasted money and frustration because of physical size - even 16 is difficult to fit into some connectors - and the main reason I stick to 18). 12 is insane unless you are running some serious power.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Granny Gremlin said:


> I'm assuming you mean 'frays' up there. This is a fair point, but shouldn't be a huge concern - I'd worry more if this would be running across the room on the floor getting stepped on, but not is down behind the amp, along the edge of the wall to the cab. Once could also use clear shrink tubing if worried or if the cable is to be exposed to abuse. Might make it a bit stiff, but it'll look cool.
> 
> Re 18 guage - I use it everywhere. Not an issue with amps 200 watts or less; 16 is a standard safe bet for any reasonably forseeable instrument amp situation (anything bigger than that is wasted money and frustration because of physical size - even 16 is difficult to fit into some connectors - and the main reason I stick to 18). 12 is insane unless you are running some serious power.


Oooops, spellded it rongly: 

*abrade* (_third-person singular simple present_ *abrades*, _present participle_ *abrading*, _simple past and past participle_ *abraded*)


(transitive) To rub or wear off; erode. [First attested in the late 17th century.][1]
(transitive) To wear down or exhaust, as a person; irritate. [First attested in the mid 18th century.][1]
(transitive) To irritate by rubbing; chafe. [First attested in the mid 18th century.][1]
(transitive) To cause the surface to become more rough.
(intransitive) To undergo abrasion.

Any use will cause it to ABRADE. Why choose something that will do that when so many better choices won't? Let alone screw around with the extra hassle of covering it to protect it. Heat shrink tubing would be horrible in the long run. It hardens and cracks. You'd go to those lengths but you're worried about the cost difference of 18 to 16 or 14? Anything with a rubber jacket will be better than this at everything - except looking cool. Personally, cool looking speaker cables are just below thread count in my amp covers but YMMV.

Re: gauges (correct spelling, since you're into that). I use 14 and 16 for most everything. It's what I buy lots of and have around, _I've _never had a problem fitting it into the two or three types of Switchcraft plugs I always use. PA speaker runs of longer than 20 feet, I would probably up it to 12 Ga. Again, no problem with the larger Switchcraft plugs. Many it's a handcraft thing?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Duplicate


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> ...I use 14 and 16 (with a rubber jacket) for most everything. _I've _never had a problem fitting it into the two or so types of plugs I always use.


Slight adjustment in my quote of what you wrote...but, for the most part, I agree with you.

Cheers


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

I don't know if it was discussed, or any intent by the manufacturer, but twisted pair does nothing for running power. I assume the 'twisted' part is just for looks.
Agree that for anything other than head to cab, cloth covered is not practical due to durability.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

if you look carefully you will see the wires are marked. That was never my concern. it was not the question i asked. I have 2 fluke meters, thanks anyway. 

So twisting the wire is purely for looks and does nothing at all to cleaning up the signal or whatever reason they use twisted pairs in an Ethernet cable.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

GTmaker said:


> I cant believe that a question can be so confusing....
> As best I can tell, your making up a 10' cable to go from your amp to the speaker box.
> 
> Speaker cable only have a positive wire and a negative wire...
> ...


There are actually 2 choices. I can run 2 18 gauge wires to the positive and 2 to the negative which would be the equivalent of about a #10 wire I would guess. Or i can hook the black wire to negative and white wire to positive. I didn't see the point of twisting 2 wires of any gauge and then separate them.

As for reliability/wear etc, I'm don't gig, my stuff doesn't move. The only movement this cable will see is if i unplug the Marshall and plug in the fender. Other than that its sitting up against the wall doing nothing. 

I find it hilarious that everyone says to use lamp cord for a cab. lamp cord is 18 gauge. This stuff is 18 gauge, and if i really want to be safe I could solder the wires like the pic below. Which was my original question

These two wires soldered together can carry more current than the single wire yes?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

knight_yyz said:


> if you look carefully you will see the wires are marked.


Colour coded...That solves that issue quickly. 
We didn't see that specific pic and hence the thread went off on a tangent...LOL



knight_yyz said:


> I have 2 fluke meters, thanks anyway.


Another tangential aspect of the thread has now been dealt with.
Very nice BTW...I'm jealous.




knight_yyz said:


> So twisting the wire is purely for looks and does nothing at all to cleaning up the signal or whatever reason they use twisted pairs in an Ethernet cable.


Maybe it will help with _"cancelling out electromagnetic interference (EMI) from external sources"_ to some extent. I'm not totally convinced that it is essential by any means....however, it certainly can't hurt anything. 

Here is an interesting diagram of the theory...just for fun and educational purposes:












knight_yyz said:


> I find it hilarious that everyone says to use lamp cord for a cab. lamp cord is 18 gauge. This stuff is 18 gauge, and if i really want to be safe I could solder the wires like the pic below. Which was my original question


Personally, I think you would be totally fine either way.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

knight_yyz said:


> So twisting the wire is purely for looks and does nothing at all to cleaning up the signal or whatever reason they use twisted pairs in an Ethernet cable.





greco said:


> Maybe it will help with _"cancelling out electromagnetic interference (EMI) from external sources"_ to some extent. I'm not totally convinced that it is essential by any means....however, it certainly can't hurt anything.
> 
> Personally, I think you would be totally fine either way.


Yes, and more specifically, CMRR (or common mode rejection ratio). Quite an important thing in very low voltage signal cables, like ethernet or UTP telephone cable, but for speaker cable, with at least 100's of mv, if not 10's of volts on the cable, RF interference is nothing to be worried about. Your pickups are picking up a lot more RF than your speaker cable will ever pick up.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

knight_yyz said:


> I find it hilarious that everyone says to use lamp cord for a cab. lamp cord is 18 gauge. This stuff is 18 gauge, and if i really want to be safe I could solder the wires like the pic below. Which was my original question
> 
> These two wires soldered together can carry more current than the single wire yes?


Yes, lamp cord is 18 guage.... but the exact same stuff is also sold as basic speaker wire (one conductor tinned; one copper, in order to label polarity).

And yes, if you're worried, you can double up the wires. Lots of "higher end" or DIY hifi speaker cables do that cuz the braid looks cool (e.g. you can use CAT5/6 ethernet cable for speakers - 4 of 8 wires for positive and negative.... not that I recommend that specifically, but in a pinch at a gig I might consider it).

Sorry about the tangents; you don't always know where the OP is at.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

So, I just got my switchcraft pancake plugs and they don't have terminals!! You have to solder directly to the pin and the case. What a waste of money.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

knight_yyz said:


> So, I just got my switchcraft pancake plugs and they don't have terminals!! You have to solder directly to the pin and the case. What a waste of money.


You would think that, with all the offshore competition, Switchcraft would improve their designs.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

All pancake jacks have the ground connection soldered to the bottom half of the shell (coulda swore that even the Switchcrafts had a tab for the tip tho). Generic ones put a triangular punchout (one side left attached) on the shell there which makes it much easier to solder to. Basically, good luck with a pen type iron, but if you have an iron with a proper supply and temp regulation, just turn her up as you would for a pot casing.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Lava and GLS have way better pancakes. All I have is a center hole and a piece of insulation


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I'll post a photo tomorrow


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I've used those pancakes dozens of times. They work great - and no parts to break off. I've never used them with speaker cables (most amps and cabs work better with straight plugs anyways) and soldering shielded (guitar) cable to them is easy-peasy - if you have the right kind of soldering irons. The right tool for the job. 

Brilliant, simple, last for ever.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I want right angle plugs so the 2x12 can stay close to the wall. Stupid thing is the lava and GLS brands are better made, they have the insulation disc and tabs with holes to solder and they are cheaper if you don't count shipping. Instead of a 228 it's called a 229


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

knight_yyz said:


> View attachment 72057
> I want right angle plugs so the 2x12 can stay close to the wall. Stupid thing is the lava and GLS brands are better made, they have the insulation disc and tabs with holes to solder and they are cheaper if you don't count shipping. Instead of a 228 it's called a 229


That is a picture of a Switchcraft - perhaps rebranded as a GLS or Lava? Or I misread your post.

I've never used this version but it would seem to solve your issue with not having a tab connected to the tip. 

Soldering the ground to the body of the plug is no problem if you use a large enough soldering tip. Heat (or temp) has very little to do with it. Mass and the ability to transfer a lot of heat quickly is the trick to soldering to plug bodies or pot backs or whatever. There's a reason why the 400 degree air in your oven won't burn you, even the 400 degree aluminum foil won't hurt much - but the 400 degree rack will leave a mark and you may not be able to play guitar for a couple days.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

From what I was able to gather, it looks like Lava and or GLS approached Switchcraft and said we can make this better, are you on board? So they still say switchcraft, but now you can get colored backs as well. I don't care about the colors as it will be up against a wall. Only problem with the Lava plugs is they are hard to find in Canada. Lava wants 22 dollars to ship 2 of these. 8 bucks for the parts and 22 us to ship.... Not happening. I found the GLS on amazon as they refuse to ship to Canada.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Have you tried looking for a Switchcraft 229 in Canada. May be the same thing as those. And with that number, perhaps it was put out the same time as the 228? 

I usually pay about $5 or $6 for 228's (comparable to $4US) - and the last time I ordered some, it may have been from one of our GC-local suppliers. Or Electrosonic. I buy from where I can find them and usually bundle with other things to get the shipping price down.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Googling switchcraft 229 gives you the lava website. I went to mouser and they want 12 each plus 20 shipping. So 45 plus tax for 2. I already ordered the GLS through Amazon.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Here's what I find for SC 229. A totally different right angle plug. I was going to look for others, out of my own curiosity, but their website quit working (probably night maintenance).

229 SWITCHCRAFT | Electro Sonic

That is not an actual 229 (which is a Switchcraft part number), more likely a 226. And yet, they get the 228 part number correct - because I've ordered them. It looks like some American suppliers have 229's but shipping is going to hurt the price. 

I like e-sonic because their $10 shipping to Canada, but they fail on that part number. Or maybe it's just the pic. I'm tempted to order a couple and see what I get. I'd use either kind eventually, although I like the flat ones a lot more for pedalboard cables.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

That's a 226 AFAIK. The 227's look cool too, they have screw terminals though. The switchcraft website has the 229, but the description says it is red. But there is no drawing or picture. Mouser shows the same unit for 226 actually. 

The GLS were 5 bucks a pop plus 6 bucks shipping. If you go to the Lava sight they actually put the trademark symbol. Lava 229™ Plug

I would have ordered from Vision guitar, I've ordered from them in the past, they have decent shipping prices. But out of stock.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Switchcraft


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Yes, that I believe is the 228. I've used those many times, but for signal (guitar) wiring, not speaker wiring. It's easy to attach a small wire to that central pin but I could see it being a bit of an issue with 14 ga or bigger. I think amp companies (like Mesa) use these on their combo speaker wires, which is usually smaller gauge speaker wire (16 or 18?).

As is said, I'm tempted to order a few 229's from e-sonic, just to see what I get. But that GLS price is pretty good - is that for the same plug or something similar?


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

High/Deaf said:


> I've used those pancakes dozens of times. They work great - and no parts to break off. I've never used them with speaker cables (most amps and cabs work better with straight plugs anyways) and soldering shielded (guitar) cable to them is easy-peasy - if you have the right kind of soldering irons. The right tool for the job.
> 
> Brilliant, simple, last for ever.


You and I have the exact opposite experience, dude. I refuse to use them unless a client insists or it's a vintage amp's footswitch or speaker connect wire in a combo (nothing else fits sometimes; not a lot of room between back of chassis and back edge of cabinet). For one thing; there's very poor strain relief, so I don't get the whole robustness comment; I have had to rework so many of these for that reason when I was younger (and they were more common).



knight_yyz said:


> View attachment 72057
> I want right angle plugs so the 2x12 can stay close to the wall. Stupid thing is the lava and GLS brands are better made, they have the insulation disc and tabs with holes to solder and they are cheaper if you don't count shipping. Instead of a 228 it's called a 229


Yeah, there is a tab for tip. As for the shield, try soldering it in that bumpy area just to the right of the round part. Don't spare the flux and turn the iron up (if direct to wall plug, let it warm up for half an hour - it will be a pain, but doable). Tin the spot on the shell you gonna solder to (and the wire) first; don't go light on the solder.



knight_yyz said:


> Switchcraft
> 
> View attachment 72177



Wait whaaaaat? Ok, it's workable, but why would one intentionally make life harder for themselves by using that? Forget the lack of tip solder tab; there's no insulation strip like any other pancake I have ever used (high risk of short). Don't back away; turn around and run.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

That's what I am saying, these are 11 or 12 bucks at Mouser and Digikey, but the Lava and GLS sell for like 3.50 each, and they have all the bells and whistles. As for strain relief I will put a nice 4" long piece of shrink wrap at both ends. 

I have a Hakko 888 so there is no problem with temperature. But I always find it a major pain to solder something that thin, and applying a ton of heat. Hard to hold it with a cheesy alligator clip


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

On another note, I am meeting Derrick Bell to pick up the empty cab Sunday morning!! Speakers came from Nextgen guitars last week. Can't wait to wire it all up and test it


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Granny Gremlin said:


> You and I have the exact opposite experience, dude. I refuse to use them unless a client insists or it's a vintage amp's footswitch or speaker connect wire in a combo (nothing else fits sometimes; not a lot of room between back of chassis and back edge of cabinet). For one thing; there's very poor strain relief, so I don't get the whole robustness comment; I have had to rework so many of these for that reason when I was younger (and they were more common).
> 
> Yeah, there is a tab for tip. As for the shield, try soldering it in that bumpy area just to the right of the round part. Don't spare the flux and turn the iron up (if direct to wall plug, let it warm up for half an hour - it will be a pain, but doable). Tin the spot on the shell you gonna solder to (and the wire) first; don't go light on the solder.
> 
> Wait whaaaaat? Ok, it's workable, but why would one intentionally make life harder for themselves by using that? Forget the lack of tip solder tab; there's no insulation strip like any other pancake I have ever used (high risk of short). Don't back away; turn around and run.


All of my cabs have recessed jack panels, so right angle plugs don't work for me. I don't have one speaker cable with them, except for my combos. If I were to make speaker cables with right angle plugs, I'd probably use the 229's, mostly for the insulation (although I suppose a lick of electric tape would work in a pinch). I use those 228 pancakes for about 1/2 of my guitar cables (one end only) and just about every pedalboard cable - so small wires, nothing bigger than 20 ga. As for strain relief, I think Mr. knight answered that question. The steel of the plug and the screws are such good quality, I can really tighten the connector down on cable that is either the right size or built up to be.

As for shorting problems, never had them. Never will. Those connectors are so strong, you would have to pound them with a mallet to deform the top and touch the center conductor inside. I don't use big blobs of solder, all my joints have the correct amount of solder and filets. I spent 10 years soldering for a living, soldering things far more complicated than guitar or PA related gear.

As for soldering on to the connector itself (the gnd connection), you seriously wait a half hour for a too-small tip to get hot enough? Wow, you have patience. I use a large spade tip, no hotter than my small pencil tip, it gets warm in less than three minutes (I heat both irons at the same time). Then I put the connector in a vise, heat it from underneath (so heating through the connector) and wet, or tin, the inside surface. Then I attached the tinned gnd wired to that wetted surface and remove the heat. In ten seconds it's set and I'm on to the next thing (usually the center conductor, which I do after the gnd, since the gnd is larger and will take any strain I may exert before I get the center attached).

It's all about the right tool for the job and a bit or handcraft.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

High/Deaf said:


> As for strain relief, I think Mr. knight answered that question. The steel of the plug and the screws are such good quality, I can really tighten the connector down on cable that is either the right size or built up to be.


I didn't want to argue about this (again), which is why I just said we have a diff experience. The rest was aimed at the OP as help, but here we go anyway.

That clamp is not satisfactory, one look at what you wrote makes it clear how much of an apologist for poor design you are being (i.e. having to build up the bulk of some cables that are too small - this is a workaround and an imperfect one as it can give over time depending on what you've used and conditions). Who's really patient and doing too much work?

Look, it's OK; you can use whatever you want and like it, but you don't get too tell me this primitive design is the best (when it could so easily be improved to resolve the weaknesses; in fact, when I use them, I often do a few things to make them easier to work with).



High/Deaf said:


> As for shorting problems, never had them. Never will. Those connectors are so strong, you would have to pound them with a mallet to deform the top and touch the center conductor inside. I don't use big blobs of solder, all my joints have the correct amount of solder and filets. I spent 10 years soldering for a living, soldering things far more complicated than guitar or PA related gear.


Argument from authority is a logical fallacy. Nobody attacked you or your credibility; your preemptive defensiveness here is curious and I will now proceed to use it against you to prove my point. Again, the proof is in the pudding: the designer and manufacturer of this jack put in an insulating strip - why, because there was no chance of such an occurrence and just wanted to charge more? I can accept that proper care taken during soldering by a person of your experience and diligence would all but eliminate that possibility, but that should not be a requirement. It should be quick and easy so that a monkey could do it (as some other jacks are). Again, you are doing extra work (not a lot, for someone like you who knows what they're doing, but still - more effort than should be required) to make up for the jack's design weaknesses.

As mentioned, this bit was aimed at helping the OP since I noticed in his pic there was no insulating strip and it is best to do something about that as you yourself have said.




High/Deaf said:


> As for soldering on to the connector itself (the gnd connection), you seriously wait a half hour for a too-small tip to get hot enough? Wow, you have patience. I use a large spade tip, no hotter than my small pencil tip, it gets warm in less than three minutes (I heat both irons at the same time). Then I put the connector in a vise, heat it from underneath (so heating through the connector) and wet, or tin, the inside surface. Then I attached the tinned gnd wired to that wetted surface and remove the heat. In ten seconds it's set and I'm on to the next thing (usually the center conductor, which I do after the gnd, since the gnd is larger and will take any strain I may exert before I get the center attached).
> 
> It's all about the right tool for the job and a bit or handcraft.


Now you're just being condescending in an effort to dismiss my argument as invalid because I do not know what I am doing (and now posting your CV earlier makes more sense). When did I say that I "wait a half hour for a too-small tip to get hot enough?" I didn't; you did not read what I wrote but skimmed it, saw a phrase and jumped on it in isolation. I have a proper iron with temp regulation; I turn it up - no waiting. Again this was explicitly a recommendation to the OP _in the case_ of only having a cheap pencil iron (plugs direct into wall, no temp control, often no variety of tips, if changeable at all) - in that case they get hotter as they are on and it's a matter of waiting (and unplugging them every hour or so so they don't get too hot - kill transistors that way, which doesn't apply here); you can solder some plain wires with them after a minute or so of warm up but forgetaboutit when it comes to pancake grounds and pot casings unless you wait longer (and you got me - half an our was a random guess; I haven't used one of those cheap irons in multiple decades so I have no idea how long it takes anymore, but teenage me cursed a lot at them, especially before I discovered eutectic solder).

You just shouldn't need exceptional soldering skills or anything but the most basic equipment to solder up a jack without difficulty or having to think about it too much (as you yourself said; this is basic stuff and hardly the rocket science you worked on professionally); you have just agreed (brought it up yourself actually) that this is the case with pancakes. That is my entire basis (well, more like 90% - they're also ugly and jagged in a way I don't like from a tactile perspective) for not liking them. I can wire up the jacks I like (nothing special, just not pancakes) in less time, they look nicer and I find them more robust and reliable. I can accept that pancakes have their fans, and I understand that there are some valid reasons for this - I myself said that I do see a few tasks where I myself use them despite my opinions above. Why can't you accept that other people have valid reasons for not liking them? It really just seems that it's down to habit and what you (not the proverbial you; you specifically) are used to, and that's fine, keep using them; it don't confront me.

Lastly, they are stupid expensive ; you'd be hard pressed to find a more expensive r angle jack (that isn't gold plated or has other deluxe features). The ones I use (also brand name) are half or less depending on where you get your pancakes.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I would be very fascinated to see what design the engineers at Neutrik would come up with if they were tasked with redesigning the pancake plug.

Admittedly, I am biased...I like their products.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

It's here, but isn't all ready to go. Worked a midnight shift, stayed awake to meet Derrick in TO, then came home. Been awake forever time for bed...


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

greco said:


> I would be very fascinated to see what design the engineers at Neutrik would come up with if they were tasked with redesigning the pancake plug.
> 
> Admittedly, I am biased...I like their products.


It's been years since I've tried Neutrik, but I hated their clutch strain relief. Overly finnicky. And plastic. I saw no improvement over SC, just more problems, so I haven't tried one since.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Granny Gremlin said:


> I didn't want to argue about this (again), which is why I just said we have a diff experience. The rest was aimed at the OP as help, but here we go anyway.
> 
> That clamp is not satisfactory, one look at what you wrote makes it clear how much of an apologist for poor design you are being (i.e. having to build up the bulk of some cables that are too small - this is a workaround and an imperfect one as it can give over time depending on what you've used and conditions). Who's really patient and doing too much work?
> 
> ...


Sure, you're just trying to help the OP and so am I. You obviously don't like SC and I do.

But I think recommending a too small tip turned up way too hot is bad advice for what he is asking about, plain and simple. I would not recommend anyone do that - for some of the reasons you yourself specified. For the price of another tip or another iron (easily justified, if you're going to solder for a few years), you can get the right tool for the job of soldering on larger surfaces. A large tip is the only thing that works well for that. Do what you want, but I will refute bad advice every step of the way.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

High/Deaf said:


> Sure, you're just trying to help the OP and so am I. You obviously don't like SC and I do.
> 
> But I think recommending a too small tip turned up way too hot is bad advice for what he is asking about, plain and simple. I would not recommend anyone do that - for some of the reasons you yourself specified. For the price of another tip or another iron (easily justified, if you're going to solder for a few years), you can get the right tool for the job of soldering on larger surfaces. A large tip is the only thing that works well for that. Do what you want, but I will refute bad advice every step of the way.


1. SC make so many other 1/4" jacks other than the pancake (see below, my response to greco). I use their thick panel female jacks for example. I would use more of their products (e.g. again as below) if they weren't so much more expensive than other quality brands. I don't use Neutrik (for 1/4" - I do use them for XLR and RCA). I understand about the chuck type strain relief being annoying sometimes - though I do find it better with most common sizes of modern cable (cable jackets were thicker back in the day, which is why pancake strain relief isn't so good nowadays), occasionally you will find some wire that doesn't work well with it (not as often as with Pancakes though, and the fix for that is more robust vs taping up/heat shrinking the wire to make it thicker with pancakes), but I do not mean to be an appologist for them. The right tool for the job as you said earlier; I will use a pancake when there is good reason to, and at no other time.

2. You are the one who is assuming too small a tip; I never said what tip I was using, the OP never said either and it's kinda funny because we now know he uses a Hakko so non-issue cause he can regulate the temp. Fact is those plug in irons (no matter the tip, which I also explained are not always replaceable with a more appropo one) take a while to warm up enough to the point where you can easily heat up a pot casing (and I did not mean sitting there holding the iron to the casing for a half hour, I meant idle waiting for the iron to get hot before even picking it up so you don't have to sit there holding it to the casing for what feels like forever... which I thought was clear but you won't let it go so clarifying again - apparently it has also been a while since you used one of those things as well... don't get me started on soldering guns - all those are good for is dabs ;P ... just make sure they weren't used for actual soldering first). They are what most people (esp non-pros) use however, so it is relevant info.



greco said:


> I would be very fascinated to see what design the engineers at Neutrik would come up with if they were tasked with redesigning the pancake plug.


Switchcraft themselves released an updated r angle jack design which is very good and solid but neither 'vintage correct' nor quite as low profile as a pancake (but far from large or obtrusive), called the 226:










They coould have made them smaller not that I think about it, but in most situations these are small enough. The places they aren't are the places I'd still use a pancake.

Used them for a bit, but they got pricier so moved to a knock off (a little different; shorter barrel because the cap comes apart), which were good too but again got pricey so I moved to Amphenol ACP series (the 'higher end' Amphenols have chuck type strain relief like Neutriks and are much more expensive; these don't and are cheap, rock solid and very easy to work with - I spend less time at the bench with these than most other jacks).


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Here's the SC 227 Harder to find these ones though


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Even worse than a pancake ( bigger, less robust due to plastic, and even poorer strain relief; all the drawbacks, none of the advantages). I have 1 or 2 on the odd inherited ccable. I think I can get those ( or copies) at a local store but would have to check. It was not ddesigned to be an improvement so much as a lower cost jack


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Yea, I hate those plastic SC's. Won't use them for anything. I'm a big fan of Amphenol connectors but they are usually crazy expensive compared to SC or Neutrik. I'll have to check in to the ACP series - I haven't shopped for different plugs for years because what I use has worked for me for a long time (and last a long time, like a lifetime as far as I can tell).

As for soldering guns, the only thing I'll use them for is cutting styrofoam. I wouldn't do any electrical or electronics work with one - they are awful, IMO. But you are right, a lot of people do use them. 

I have 3 Weller irons, 2 W60P's with small tips and an old double insulated one with the large tip in it. All take replacement tips and tips come in various physical sizes and regulated temperatures (the temps are stamped on the inside magnet that regulates the temp - you can hear it clicking on and off). I don't recall them being very expensive, maybe $50 and another $10 for tips? But I've had them a long time so my prices might be out. If you're going to solder for a decade or two, they will last that long (especially with replacement tips) and are worth the expense. IMO. Just like good Excellite or Snap-on hand tools, it's hurts for a sec when you buy them but then you enjoy the quality for decades to come.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Well, it turns out that 2 #12 wires have no hope of fitting inside these pancakes. Actually, 2 of #14 won't fit well. Definitely made for patch cables. Decided to go with neutrik 90 degree plugs instead. And I'm using 14 gauge as I have tons of it and the run is only 5 feet long. 
I'll post pics tonight, I used 2 pieces of 14 gauge and twisted them with twisting pliers. Then I took some expandable braiding from Tech flex and ran the twisted pair through that. So they are extra protected by the tech flex, and it looks cool too.


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## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

High/Deaf said:


> Yea, I hate those plastic SC's. Won't use them for anything. I'm a big fan of Amphenol connectors but they are usually crazy expensive ...


At $1.76 US, they're not what I'd call crazy expensive. You have to order a bunch though to counter shipping.

"Amphenol ACPM-RN 1/4" Mono Right Angle Phone Plug Connector Satin" from www.parts-express.com!


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