# NAD: First Garnet



## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

I've had a soft spot for vintage Canadian amps since a friend introduced me to Pepco amps. I've since owned a few Pepco products, but Garnets have eluded my grasp until now. They don't pop up for sale as often this far East.

This one is a 1970s Garnet Tripper PA head, that used to be the yard PA at a junkyard. Cool mojo for a car guy, like me. It certainly needs some love though, unless smoking output transformers was a factory feature.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Needs a heart transplant?


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

That's pretty cool! Thanks for saving her life 

2 x 6V6 power tubes?

I've got one that looks just like that control wise. Only difference is mine says "Rebel PA"


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

2x 6V6 and a pair of 12A family tubes in the front. SS rectified.

Model number is T90PA.

It supposedly still passed sound when buddy powered it up this morning, but the OT started to smoke. He immediately powered it down.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Oufff... Open her up and take pics. Any way to test the tubes ?

Nice amp !


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

cboutilier said:


> 2x 6V6 and a pair of 12A family tubes in the front. SS rectified.
> 
> Model number is T90PA.
> 
> It supposedly still passed sound when buddy powered it up this morning, but the OT started to smoke. He immediately powered it down.


A close eye ball inspection and then some continuity testing in the output section, measure both primary windings of the OPTFM with the 6V6s in circuit and then out of circuit and hope that it is a bad output tube.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Paul Running said:


> A close eye ball inspection and then some continuity testing in the output section, measure both primary windings of the OPTFM with the 6V6s in circuit and then out of circuit and hope that it is a bad output tube.


Bad 6V6 would be a lucky break! They are quite old tubes, of Japanese origin.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

cboutilier said:


> They are quite old tubes, of Japanese origin.


Hit-Rays?


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Paul Running said:


> Hit-Rays?


They are branded at Keldon Citation, and don't even have the tube type stamped on them!


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

@Frenchy99 Are the knobs on this PA amp early or later? I always thought these were the later knobs, now I'm wondering if I have it backwards. Got time for an *E*xpert opinion?


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Lincoln said:


> @Frenchy99 Are the knobs on this PA amp early or later? I always thought these were the later knobs, now I'm wondering if I have it backwards. Got time for an *E*xpert opinion?


These knobs came out around 74-75 if I remember correctly


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Frenchy99 said:


> These knobs came out around 74-75 if I remember correctly


75 I believe. This should be a 75-80 or so.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

cboutilier said:


> 75 I believe. This should be a 75-80 or so.


Your transformers date codes will help date your amp.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Lincoln said:


> That's pretty cool! Thanks for saving her life
> 
> 2 x 6V6 power tubes?
> 
> I've got one that looks just like that control wise. Only difference is mine says "Rebel PA"



The Rebel PA is 6L6s though, but yes otherwise same chassis (bigger iron).

The preamps on these are super clean (low gain; they only get a bit dirty at the very end of travel, like the last quarter turn maybe less) but not band limited as much as standard guitar amp preamps - the potential for more highs and lows. In fact for most guitars (barring super bright single coils) you're gonna wanna turn the master bass knob down especially in the mix vs solo practise. Great as a pedal platform (clean power or, if you push it which is not hard with 6V6s, power tube OD) or a bass amp. Leaves a little to be desired as a direct in guitar amp tonewise, but they are great mod platforms because you have 4 preamp triodes to play with (you only need 2 for a standard guitar input of just about any flavour you desire, as is each input uses 1, hence the low gain) or a great vocal /harp/mic'd acoustic amp (if you have a nice HiZ mic like a Shure Unydine era 57, or a lo to hi Z transformer/adapter).


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Granny Gremlin said:


> The Rebel PA is 6L6s though, but yes otherwise same chassis (bigger iron).
> 
> The preamps on these are super clean (low gain; they only get a bit dirty at the very end of travel, like the last quarter turn maybe less) but not band limited as much as standard guitar amp preamps - the potential for more highs and lows. In fact for most guitars (barring super bright single coils) you're gonna wanna turn the master bass knob down especially in the mix vs solo practise. Great as a pedal platform (clean power or, if you push it which is not hard with 6V6s, power tube OD) or a bass amp. Leaves a little to be desired as a direct in guitar amp tonewise, but they are great mod platforms because you have 4 preamp triodes to play with (you only need 2 for a standard guitar input of just about any flavour you desire, as is each input uses 1, hence the low gain) or a great vocal /harp/mic'd acoustic amp (if you have a nice HiZ mic like a Shure Unydine era 57, or a lo to hi Z transformer/adapter).


my Rebel PA has a pair of 6V6's in it, and as far as I can tell, that's how it came. The transformer numbers match what's on the schematics for the 6L6 version even. I think Gar did a lot of flying by the seat of his pants. Mine works great as an acoustic amp, it's ultra-clean.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Lincoln said:


> my Rebel PA has a pair of 6V6's in it, and as far as I can tell, that's how it came. The transformer numbers match what's on the schematics for the 6L6 version even. I think Gar did a lot of flying by the seat of his pants. Mine works great as an acoustic amp, it's ultra-clean.



We will never know for sure but it seems much more likely that a previous owner wanted a power drop. Even if vintage tubes (Gar didn't have Garnet - branded power tubes so no way to be sure those are the original tubes). Did you typo there cuz it only serves your point if you meant 6V6 transformers (otherwise you made my case for me). In any event the Txs for 6V6 and 6L6 Garnets were the same in the very early period (triangle chassis as a general rule). The tubes are also drop in replacements for each other (just rebias). Even though this amp case style was later than that, there may have been some overlap between new headshell and old trannies so its an academic debate at best, but I beleive I have a strong case vs just the 6V6s being vintage vs modern production.

As far as I have seen, the original (pre PA version) guitar/bass 90 series (model #) Rebels were indeed 6V6, but the PA head came later. I've only ever seen them with 6L6s, but maybe the very first ones (before the Tripper came out - that was a PA head only) and switched to 6L6s to differentiate it from the Tripper, but I am doubtful (the Rebel PA needed more power from the get go because the preamps are lower gain and even with 6L6s it was rough in anything but smaller venues; I suspect 6L6 from the start). Then the Guirtar/Bass Rebels moved up as well (model name changed to 100). The Tripper came relatively later (70, vs Rebel PA in 67) as a low cost alternative aimed at the garage jam market vs actual live show PA use (it's pretty much a stencil with a proper Garnet badge). To this end it did not even offer a reverb option until it's very last year of production (1975).

So if your Rebel is triangle chassis, I would be much more inclined to believe it was 6V6 from factory but since you say it looks the same as the pictured Tripper (early ones were also triangle chassis), it isn't (the headbox would be much shorter and I think diff knobs but not sure about that off the top of my head) and is therefore a later one and therefore prob 6L6 stock. That newer chassis predates the Rebel 100s (which had a TX change to match).

Gar did a lot of custom stuff and continuously improved things without detailed documentation, sure, but lets not diss the cat like that - never by the seat of his pants; dude always had the plane in control ;P


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

The first Rebel PA were PA90 with 6V6, shortly upgraded to PA100 with 6L6. Different transformers also.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Gar did a lot of custom stuff and continuously improved things without detailed documentation,


That doc stuff is very time consuming...especially the way he did it, those aren't cut and paste drawings and the BOMs are time robbers...more efficient with data entry clerks now.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Granny Gremlin said:


> We will never know for sure but it seems much more likely that a previous owner wanted a power drop. Even if vintage tubes (Gar didn't have Garnet - branded power tubes so no way to be sure those are the original tubes). Did you typo there cuz it only serves your point if you meant 6V6 transformers (otherwise you made my case for me). In any event the Txs for 6V6 and 6L6 Garnets were the same in the very early period (triangle chassis as a general rule). The tubes are also drop in replacements for each other (just rebias). Even though this amp case style was later than that, there may have been some overlap between new headshell and old trannies so its an academic debate at best, but I beleive I have a strong case vs just the 6V6s being vintage vs modern production.
> 
> As far as I have seen, the original (pre PA version) guitar/bass 90 series (model #) Rebels were indeed 6V6, but the PA head came later. I've only ever seen them with 6L6s, but maybe the very first ones (before the Tripper came out - that was a PA head only) and switched to 6L6s to differentiate it from the Tripper, but I am doubtful (the Rebel PA needed more power from the get go because the preamps are lower gain and even with 6L6s it was rough in anything but smaller venues; I suspect 6L6 from the start). Then the Guirtar/Bass Rebels moved up as well (model name changed to 100). The Tripper came relatively later (70, vs Rebel PA in 67) as a low cost alternative aimed at the garage jam market vs actual live show PA use (it's pretty much a stencil with a proper Garnet badge). To this end it did not even offer a reverb option until it's very last year of production (1975).
> 
> ...


What I've meant is I've seen amp schematics in Gar's book using the same transformer numbers for both 6V6 and 6L6 amps in the 45 & 90 series. 
My rebel PA is a wedge chassis with the old style knobs, but unfortunately the tube sockets were not marked like they are in most (?) Garnets. No reverb either. Checking the bias is what lead me to believe this amp was originally 6V6 equipped. It also has a 6SN7 PI, which I think means it was an early model.

I think Gar drew up a schematic when he first designed each model of amp, and as you said was constantly making changes but never bothered to update the drawings. As long as they were close enough a competent tech could figure it out, he was probably happy. "As built" could vary.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Frenchy99 said:


> The first Rebel PA were PA90 with 6V6, shortly upgraded to PA100 with 6L6. Different transformers also.



I understand that this is confusing, but my G90PAR is and always was 6L6. It is also not early ( I am not sure the PA heads ever updated the model name or not; I am inclined to believe not for the following reasons). Judging by the knobs on mine (same as the tripper above, and I assume the 6V6 Rebel PA in question), it's post 74, so the model number should have been updated by then if it ever was. I have only seen "G100" rebels in the guitar/bass version.

And yes, the change to 100 including a TX change as I said earlier.

If the Rebel PA ever was 6V6, it would have been the earliest ones with the triangle chassis, which none of these are.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

The idea that 6L6 and 6V6 are drop in replacements for each other can get you in trouble.
A 6L6 amp may have plate voltages that are too high for 6V6's.
A 6V6 amp's power transformer may not be able to handle the extra heater current required for 6L6's.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Lincoln said:


> What I've meant is I've seen amp schematics in Gar's book using the same transformer numbers for both 6V6 and 6L6 amps in the 45 & 90 series.
> My rebel PA is a wedge chassis with the old style knobs, but unfortunately the tube sockets were not marked like they are in most (?) Garnets. No reverb either. Checking the bias is what lead me to believe this amp was originally 6V6 equipped. It also has a 6SN7 PI, which I think means it was an early model.
> 
> I think Gar drew up a schematic when he first designed each model of amp, and as you said was constantly making changes but never bothered to update the drawings. As long as they were close enough a competent tech could figure it out, he was probably happy. "As built" could vary.


There were occasional updates to the documentation, the changes were either transitional (documented later, like the phase inverter change you mentioned ) or relatively minor. For some long lived/flagship models we have 3 distinct eras not including cosemetics. There is, however, a huge info gap for the later period (both the low end solid state stuff and the later tube stuff) - like I've never seen an official schem for either the Enforcer or a Sessionmaster, and that's 80s/90s. Weird because that's still before the book came out, but I suspect it was a variable spec and the bits and pieces (e.g. various OD and channel switching circuits) are sprinkled about in the relevent chapters (but no single whole unit schem). There was some custom stuff, but again mostly involved features from other amps being added on.

Yes it is earlier and I have no doubt it was 6V6 based. So cute and tiny those guys. I have a reverb unit from that period.

... so I double checked and there was a G100PAR Rebel - found a schem.... but it was (like the Pro of the same period) the console style large front panel unit (in 4 or 6 channel versions). And now that I think about it I vaguely recall seeing a Tripper like that at one point (because it was so weird... like if you want the added tone controls per channel, how much more expensive would a Rebel be? And it's PA, like take the headroom/volume). So that's why the 'regular' head version of the PAR had to remain a G90. ... but had 6L6s... because otherwise it woulda just been a Tripper.

And of course @jb welder is correct and I shoulda clarified that myself.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Granny Gremlin said:


> And yes, the change to 100 including a TX change as I said earlier.
> 
> If the Rebel PA ever was 6V6, it would have been the earliest ones with the triangle chassis, which none of these are.


Just verified mine, 1971 model, triangle chassis, PA90 model, pair of 6L6 with the 3K0979 transformer for the 6L6.

The name change to PA100 happened after 71. From 6V6 to 6L6 prior...


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Frenchy99 said:


> Just verified mine, 1971 model, triangle chassis, PA90 model, pair of 6L6 with the 3K0979 transformer for the 6L6.
> 
> The name change to PA100 happened after 71. From 6V6 to 6L6 prior...


Fuckin hell, Gar, why do you do this shit. ;p

I think the TXes changed again with the G100 designation though. ...and that actually strengthens the original hypothesis of 6V6s not likely to be stock in later non-triangle chassis Rebel PAs.

According to the chart I compiled, the Guitar version Rebel II (G100) came out in 72 (head only, combo later) so that fits with everything. We still don't know if any Rebel PA90s** were even ever made with 6V6s stock (as an offical item off the model list, I'm sure he did it at some point as a one off at least) like the guitar versions were or not; I'd very much like to be sure about that one way or the other. The fact that the PA version of 6L6 head would fit in a triangle chassis makes it possible that they were always so - yours is 4 channel - not 2 channel (4 jacks)+phono like the early Tripper? ... Also now curious if the Tripper was ever anything other than a PA amp.

** Does yours actually say that ("PA90") because mine and all the other ones I've seen, and schems, all seem to be labeled G90PA(R)s; I have seen PA as a prefix in the model name for the bigger amps though and its useful shorthand. ... interestingly the later console style 6 channel Trippers were also G90PAR like the pre-console Rebel PA heads.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Fuckin hell, Gar, why do you do this shit. ;p


I know...lol

The entire Rebel series was hard to follow...


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Frenchy99 said:


> I know...lol
> 
> The entire Rebel series was hard to follow...



I'm tryin ova here!

So while you were posting that I editted my last post above so you may have missed it:

Does your 71 PA90 have 4 channels, or 2 (maybe 2 jacks each for 4 total, but only 2 gain knobs... plus maybe an optional phono input)?

Is yours actually labelled "PA90" on the serial number sticker?


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Does your 71 PA90 have 4 channels, or 2 (maybe 2 jacks each for 4 total, but only 2 gain knobs... plus maybe an optional phono input)?


Yep, 4 channels !












Granny Gremlin said:


> Is yours actually labelled "PA90" on the serial number sticker?


Yep !


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Frenchy99 said:


> Yep, 4 channels !
> 
> View attachment 352048
> 
> ...


That's exactly what mine looks like! It's also a model PA90. Power Transformer #6K2952, date code? DGJ1
Output transformer #3K0979 also with a date code of DGJ1


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Garnets are cool.

Enjoy!


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Lincoln said:


> That's exactly what mine looks like! It's also a model PA90. Power Transformer #6K2952, date code? DGJ1
> Output transformer #3K0979 also with a date code of DGJ1


I am curious to know if anybody has the detailed specs for those power and output TFMs or has anybody characterised them?


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Also now curious if the Tripper was ever anything other than a PA amp.


You are on to something !

Just finished checking all my files, every Tripper was a PA or Sound Console. Never an actual guitar or bass head. 

You had the Swinger head and Lil' Rock head with the same specks.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Frenchy99 said:


> Yep, 4 channels !


Interesting, so the Rebel PA was always 4 chan and probably always 6L6; the Tripper in the triangle period was 2 chan (sometimes + phono, which I assume was mono but may have been stereo):











I say optional phono input because it really looks like an afterthought here being outside the silkscreened box. I wonder if the choice was master volume or phono line in with these things (like the Sessionman FTR vs later; Fuzz or Master, you didn't ever get both).



Frenchy99 said:


> [PA90] Yep !


FAK! Just when you think you have a handle on it. So current thinking is early (triangle chassis) ones were PA90, then for some stupid reason they went to G90PA for the larger shell and new knobs era, and stuck with that even into the console era. Looks like this was consistant accross the range as regards Pro and BTO vocal amps.

The rebel PA head never changed from G90PAR to G100 because that was the designation for the Rebel Sound Console. The Tripper stayed as G90PAR as well.... except when Gar noticed he done goofed and changed it to T90PAR (at least by the time of the book ) to differentiate it from the later Rebel PA head.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Paul Running said:


> I am curious to know if anybody has the detailed specs for those power and output TFMs or has anybody characterised them?


How could a person characterize them? Does it need more stuff than a good selection of resistors and a multi-meter or two? 
I lifted one of the HV leads on the PT, 707 volts open circuit, 475V rectified, no load.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

I'm assuming someone could check with Hammond - they should have records and/or know which of their current line is roughly equivalent (what Garnet used was not weird; a lot of it based off the specs for Fender iron, and even those, initially at least, weren't Fender's specs but what most NA hifi and instrument amp makers were using. Sometiems Gar used Marsland trannies though so that's a dead end. 

For power trannies it's pretty easy because most Garnet schema give you the output voltages. You'd also be good enough using the closest Fender style PT/OT for the given power section (e.g. Champ iron for a Herzog or a Gnome). Where it gets difficult is the quad/sextet 6CA7 big guns, but still there are comparables to look at.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Lincoln said:


> How could a person characterize them? Does it need more stuff than a good selection of resistors and a multi-meter or two?
> I lifted one of the HV leads on the PT, 707 volts open circuit, 475V rectified, no load.


The physical size of the TFM can fool you. I prefer to do a few tests...the size of the iron determines the magnetic flux capacity. A large iron core may not have a high current capacity...I've had a few unmarked 25Hz TFMs throw me off. For the PTFM, Static check the HV secondary DCR, a low DCR typically indicates higher current capacity. Load testing is a suitable dynamic method to determine current capacity. For the filament capacity, I use a rheostat to provide extra load to the winding...when you see the voltmeter drop quickly...you are past the surge load rating, back off a bit and then calculate the AC current or if you have an AC current meter, use it.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Paul Running said:


> The physical size of the TFM can fool you. I prefer to do a few tests...the size of the iron determines the magnetic flux capacity. A large iron core may not have a high current capacity...I've had a few unmarked 25Hz TFMs throw me off. For the PTFM, Static check the HV secondary DCR, a low DCR typically indicates higher current capacity. Load testing is a suitable dynamic method to determine current capacity. For the filament capacity, I use a rheostat to provide extra load to the winding...when you see the voltmeter drop quickly...you are past the surge load rating, back off a bit and then calculate the AC current or if you have an AC current meter, use it.


ah, a rheostat. That would work well. I was thinking of providing a load with resistors and then measuring voltage drop. 

Will a DC carbon pile work on AC?


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

As long as the resistance is low enough to force up to about 10A current flow @ 6.3VAC or 5A @ 12.6VAC...old alternator carbon stacks would work too.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

I think it is neat that the Tripper PA has a Slave Out too.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

cboutilier said:


> I think it is neat that the Tripper PA has a Slave Out too.



That is neat and frankly, it could really use it due to low power internally.

My Rebel PA has a headphone out (switchable with speaker out not concurrent). I always assumed that was not stock (also it is stoopid loud, can't play guitar dirty at all with those on), but I am planning on going in there to do some things so I'll have a better look. It would be super usefull if I could pad that a bit so can listen on cans with higher gain.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Granny Gremlin said:


> That is neat and frankly, it could really use it due to low power internally.
> 
> My Rebel PA has a headphone out (switchable with speaker out not concurrent). I always assumed that was not stock (also it is stoopid loud, can't play guitar dirty at all with those on), but I am planning on going in there to do some things so I'll have a better look. It would be super usefull if I could pad that a bit so can listen on cans with higher gain.


I wonder where in the circuit the Slave is drawn from.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

cboutilier said:


> I wonder where in the circuit the Slave is drawn from.



Gar usually did that before the phase inverter (just like master volumes; post PI was not a thing yet). Pretty common on larger Garnets (weird on a amp as small as a Tripper, though I think all console PA amps had echo sends which are pretty much the same thing + a return).


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## MarkM (May 23, 2019)

I sure wish I even had a basic knowledge of what you folks are taking about. I am struggling to mod a Ephiphone Jr. Gotta say I have learnt a lot and messed up a couple times. I haven't quit yet!

Carry on folks, I will continue to read through and learn.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Gar usually did that before the phase inverter (just like master volumes; post PI was not a thing yet). Pretty common on larger Garnets (weird on a amp as small as a Tripper, though I think all console PA amps had echo sends which are pretty much the same thing + a return).


The send and return are 6JW8 tube driven on the console.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

MarkM said:


> I sure wish I even had a basic knowledge of what you folks are taking about. I am struggling to mod a Ephiphone Jr. Gotta say I have learnt a lot and messed up a couple times. I haven't quit yet!
> 
> Carry on folks, I will continue to read through and learn.


My knowledge of tube amps comes from an Epiphone Valve Junior, and a propensity for reading everything I could find about topics of interest. I had studied 1930s RCA tube circuit manuals before I'd ever changed my first tube.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

cboutilier said:


> I had studied 1930s RCA tube circuit manuals before I'd ever changed my first tube.


Yes, I recommend RCA manuals and application notes...you will learn a lot from them. Plenty of practical info and engineering notes, if you wish to get right inside the tube:





__





RCA Application Notes






www.one-electron.com


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

For shits and giggles, I threw my spare 6V6s in this amp and fired it up again. There was some crackling sounds through the speaker, and I may have spotted some sparks inside the OT casing. There was a slight smokey smell that started to develop after a moment.

Time to rip it open for proper troubleshooting.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

cboutilier said:


> I may have spotted some sparks inside the OT casing


Sparks indicates that the electron flow is bypassing the insulation to ground. That could indicate insulation breakdown or some mischievous activity is taking place in your output tubes...and what could that possibly be? Make sure the secondary is properly loaded...visually check...are you using a resistive load? Does it spark with the tubes removed?


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Congrats! It's too bad these are getting harder to find. I remember when old Traynors and Garnet's were plentiful and cheap!


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

butterknucket said:


> Congrats! It's too bad these are getting harder to find. I remember when old Traynors and Garnet's were plentiful and cheap!


that must have been the days before @Frenchy99 got rolling


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Lincoln said:


> that must have been the days before @Frenchy99 got rolling


Ha!

I also remember going into used guitar shops and there were walls of Silverface Fenders stacked three high, all of them well under $1000.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

butterknucket said:


> Ha!
> 
> I also remember going into used guitar shops and there were walls of Silverface Fenders stacked three high, all of them well under $1000.


Yup.
I remember going to pawn shops amp hunting as a "kid" with my dad, and seeing Fender tweed amps. Nobody wanted those ugly old things at the time. That would have been late 60's, very early 70's. I don't know how many tweeds I turned my nose up at. 😞 

But my eyes lit up when I saw a Garnet!


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Lincoln said:


> Yup.
> I remember going to pawn shops amp hunting as a "kid" with my dad, and seeing Fender tweed amps. Nobody wanted those ugly old things at the time. That would have been late 60's, very early 70's. I don't know how many tweeds I turned my nose up at. 😞
> 
> But my eyes lit up when I saw a Garnet!


People in the know back then used tweeds though. A lot of recordings from the 70's that people think are Marshalls are actually Tweed Fenders.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

It wasn't that long ago either that you would see Garnet heads full of Mullards for $300.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Paul Running said:


> Sparks indicates that the electron flow is bypassing the insulation to ground. That could indicate insulation breakdown or some mischievous activity is taking place in your output tubes...and what could that possibly be? Make sure the secondary is properly loaded...visually check...are you using a resistive load? Does it spark with the tubes removed?


The load was the speakers in my Twin Reverb 

No sparks without tubes. But happens with known good tubes from my other 6V6 amp.

Being a literal junkyard it is very dusty and rusty. Be interesting to see what I find when I open it up.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

butterknucket said:


> People in the know back then used tweeds though. A lot of recordings from the 70's that people think are Marshalls are actually Tweed Fenders.


unfortunately, 14 year old kids in my neighborhood didn't know about tweed amps. They were old, ugly, and they smelled funny.

A Garnet was the biggest bang you could get for your buck back then too.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Lincoln said:


> Yup.
> I remember going to pawn shops amp hunting as a "kid" with my dad, and seeing Fender tweed amps. Nobody wanted those ugly old things at the time. That would have been late 60's, very early 70's. I don't know how many tweeds I turned my nose up at. 😞
> 
> But my eyes lit up when I saw a Garnet!


Reminds me of all the Brown and Blonde Fenders that were painted Blackface in the 60s.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

cboutilier said:


> No sparks without tubes. But happens with known good tubes from my other 6V6 amp.


How's the DC resistance look for the primary windings of the output TFM. Each side should be close in readings...maybe 75 - 125 ohms per plate side...150 - 250 ohms plate to plate. Lincoln or Frenchy99 could probably tell you exactly what to see for readings. It's worth it to disassemble the TFM, to see where it was arching, could be an easy fix, depending on have much you value that TFM.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Paul Running said:


> How's the DC resistance look for the primary windings of the output TFM. Each side should be close in readings...maybe 75 - 125 ohms per plate side...150 - 250 ohms plate to plate. Lincoln or Frenchy99 could probably tell you exactly what to see for readings. It's worth it to disassemble the TFM, to see where it was arching, could be an easy fix, depending on have much you value that TFM.


I haven't had a chance to open it up yet. I'd be stoked if I could salvage the transformer. I won't be heartbroken if it gets retired, but it would be satisfying to save it


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

cboutilier said:


> I haven't had a chance to open it up yet. I'd be stoked if I could salvage the transformer.


Depending on how sure you were that the sparks were coming from the OT, you could get lucky and maybe there is some arcing at one of the power tube sockets. Especially if there is lots of dust in there.


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