# I hate empty bars!



## james on bass

We played last night in Thamesville. Really nice restaurant / bar. Kind of an odd set-up for live music, but it works.

We got set-up while the restaurant crowd was eating and leaving. Bar never did fill up. We played to about 15-20 people, all at the pool table end of the bar.

Man does it suck playing to no-one. You just can't get inspired, and as a result, the music suffers.

The DJ popped in and loved us.  Most bar owners / staff really like us and always book us again right away, so I know our music is good. 

It just reall sucks when there is no-one around to enjoy it. We're back again tonight, and we're obviously hoping for a better turn-out.


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## Wild Bill

*This must be a hoax!*

James, you must have imagined the sparse turnout!

I have it on good authority that there were thousands of non-smokers just waiting for the stink of tobacco smoke to clear out so they could come out in droves! Not only would they replace any lost business but going smoke-free would drastically increase it!

So either you were imagining things or it was a plot by the big tobacco companies to make the smoke-free folks look bad.

Or maybe it's the fault of George Bush or those seal-clubbers in Newfoundland...

Sorry James, I just couldn't resist! ;_)


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## james on bass

Wild Bill said:


> James, you must have imagined the sparse turnout!
> 
> I have it on good authority that there were thousands of non-smokers just waiting for the stink of tobacco smoke to clear out so they could come out in droves! Not only would they replace any lost business but going smoke-free would drastically increase it!
> 
> So either you were imagining things or it was a plot by the big tobacco companies to make the smoke-free folks look bad.
> 
> Or maybe it's the fault of George Bush or those seal-clubbers in Newfoundland...
> 
> Sorry James, I just couldn't resist! ;_)



Well, you pretty much hit the nail on its sarcastic head! :tongue: 

The singer and I were telling the other guys what it used to be like back in the late 80's / early 90's when you would play in a bar and they were pakced on a regular basis. Of course you'd lose your singing voice and go home reaking of smoke.


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## Xanadu

james on bass said:


> Well, you pretty much hit the nail on its sarcastic head! :tongue:
> 
> The singer and I were telling the other guys what it used to be like back in the late 80's / early 90's when you would play in a bar and they were pakced on a regular basis. Of course you'd lose your singing voice and go home reaking of smoke.


hey james you have a + beside your name on the bottom of the main page.


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## james on bass

Xanadu said:


> hey james you have a + beside your name on the bottom of the main page.


is that a bad thing?


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## james on bass

Well, it was no better last night.  

Last song of the night, at 2:00am, this guy runs up and says how awesome we were and could we play some more. Well where the hell was he and everyone he knew the night before?!

Oh well - the Derby should be rocking in 2 weeks!!!


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## david henman

...thank you for starting this thread - you beat me to it!

i am so sick of playing empty rooms. i'm sure that will all change once the word gets out that my band is made up of a bunch of aging crossdressers  but in the meantime, we're stuck feeling like we should be apologizing to the club owner after every gig.

its somewhat reassuring to know that i'm not the only one but, damn! what are we going to do?

it doesn't help that most club owners go to great lengths to make their venues inhospitable - filthy washroom facilities, etc.

i would also like to see a few club owners be adventurous and try running the bands from 8:00 pm to midnight, with a post-show "party" after that.

there is a club in newmarket called fitzy's crabshack. the owner, larry, is actually a great guy. he wants to run live bands virtually every night of the week, but he's scratching his head wondering how in the hell he can get people to attend.

-dh


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## keefsdad

james on bass said:


> Well, it was no better last night.
> 
> Last song of the night, at 2:00am, this guy runs up and says how awesome we were and could we play some more. Well where the hell was he and everyone he knew the night before?!
> 
> Oh well - the Derby should be rocking in 2 weeks!!!


I agree an earlier start and finish is a great idea, especially on weeknights. Who can stay out till 2 am on a Monday?


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## james on bass

I know what you mean about apologizing to the bar owners, but in many cases, they are pretty embarrassed as well that they bring in a fantastic band (their words) and no-one shows up to watch. We keep hearing it was busy the weekend before.

The idea of an early start is nice as well. I liked it when everyone got the bars at 9:30-10 at the latest and last call was at 1:00am. That extra hour really sucks. Can't see how the bars would get people in at 8 or 8:30 though.


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## Milkman

I agree that starting at 10:00 and finishing at 2:00 is madness.


9:00 ~ 1:00 was much better.


Empty bars? Well, I guess it's our job to get the bodies in the seats. That's why bars hire bands. It surely isn't out of some noble interest in supporting live music.


It does suck playing to an empty room but fortunately it doesn't happen to me often. Then again, we probably don't gig as much as some folks around here. We do one or two weekends a month and never play weekdays.


My favourite shows are all ages shows. I love seeing kids in the crowd. They're generally really impressed that old guys can rock out.


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## david henman

Milkman said:


> Well, I guess it's our job to get the bodies in the seats.


...i don't agree. i think its our job to play music. i will not work for any club owner/manager who puts the onus on ME to fill HIS venue.

however, for arguments sake, if it IS our job to fill the seats, how do we accomplish that? 

first of all, the amount of money that bars pay will not allow for any advertising. secondly, you can only call up your friends so may times and plead with them to find a babysitter and come out and support your band.

-dh


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## Milkman

david henman said:


> ...i don't agree. i think its our job to play music. i will not work for any club owner/manager who puts the onus on ME to fill HIS venue.
> 
> however, for arguments sake, if it IS our job to fill the seats, how do we accomplish that?
> 
> first of all, the amount of money that bars pay will not allow for any advertising. secondly, you can only call up your friends so may times and plead with them to find a babysitter and come out and support your band.
> 
> -dh


Well, that's a bit like saying it isn't an employee's responsibility to ensure that his company is profitable.

Literally, that's true, but if the company isn't profitable the employee loses his job.

Lamenting that it wasn't his fault doesn't change the fact that he's no longer employed.


I do agree that the money isn't there and that bars could do much more to promote live music, but at the end of the day, bars will tend to hire bands that draw, not bands that are better musicians.

I hate that it's this way, but it is.


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## david henman

Milkman said:


> Well, that's a bit like saying it isn't an employee's responsibility to ensure that his company is profitable.
> Literally, that's true, but if the company isn't profitable the employee loses his job.
> Lamenting that it wasn't his fault doesn't change the fact that he's no longer employed.
> I do agree that the money isn't there and that bars could do much more to promote live music, but at the end of the day, bars will tend to hire bands that draw, not bands that are better musicians.
> I hate that it's this way, but it is.


...i see your point, but by that logic, since the bar staff are also dependent on the profitability of the venue, on a FULL TIME basis, wouldn't that put most of the onus on them?

in fact, many (if not most) of the bar owners i work for don't put the onus on me to draw a crowd. they actually do believe that its their responsibility to bring people into their venue, and my responsibility to not chase them away. 

not to revisit a very controversial thread, but one of the big enticements to going to bars was being able to drink AND smoke AND socialize. RIDE programs and smoking bans appear, at least, to have removed much of that enticement. however, i won't argue with any of you if you say this is a poor argument.

there was a time when all you had to do was hire a band and flash an open sign. _especially_ in suburban and rural environs. those days are definitely history, and club owners everywhere are scratching their heads and wondering what they could and/or should be doing to get people to come out.

-dh


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## Wild Bill

*It's all a conspiracy!*

I can only speak with experience from my neck of the woods but here's how it looks to me!

Back in the early 90's we had a bad recession and a lot of clubs folded or were sold to new owners. It seemed to me that these new owners didn't have a clue how bands fitted into their venue. They were "downsized" from Stelco or Proctor and Gamble so they took their severance and bought a club. No doubt they thought anybody could run one!

First off, they couldn't seem to make up their mind whether they were a club or a restaurant. Stages for the band disappeared to add a few tables. Dance floors now are rarely seen! The building is an old house converted into a club/restaurant. The band is shoved into a corner facing in absolutely the worst possible direction and there's only one electrical outlet for the entire band! The poor waitresses bravely try to push the food all night 'cuz the kitchen stays open in hopes of another $10 of chicken wings being sold.

The local paper has a free listing service. All the club owner has to do is dial the phone and tell them who he has playing on which night. Few of them ever do. I never see a marquee with a picture of next week's band. There's no consistency in the type of music offered so it's a crap shoot to find out if it's worth having come out.

In olden times we played 30-40 minute sets with 20 minute breaks. This meant that it was never that long before the band stopped and patrons could talk and pick each other up or whatever. Now sets are 90 minutes to two hours! I asked one of my customers why they do this and he told me the owners insist on it! 

That makes no sense to me at all. Obviously the owners don't know the difference between a club scene and a concert venue. They are quite different.

Clubs had most of a century of experience to refine how bands fitted in as entertainment. During the 90's for whatever reasons that experience chain seems to have been broken in most of the clubs around my town.

It's very simple - bands are there to help people to have a good time so that they will drink beer! Dancers will spend more on beer than they will on chicken wings. The people are out to have a good time and maybe pick each other up and go get laid!

Bands should NEVER let owners tell them how to do their show. I watched in disgust as one club manager actually tried to dictate a band's set list! Talk about power going to one's head...

The band is there to make the beer sales flow and the owner is there to count his till at the end of the night. If he's not happy with the count then he should not hire the band back. PERIOD! The band doesn't tell him how to cook chicken wings.

It's sad but I truly believe we are witnessing the death of the traditional club scene. There are more reasons than I've stated above (tobacco laws seem to have been a total failure as to bringing non-smokers INTO clubs! If you don't believe me go into a few clubs and count 'em.) Pay is so low that it barely pays gas money. One local club pays $100 a night - for the entire band!

What seems to be taking its place is slam-dancing palaces and hiphop clubs. Slam dancers seem to cost more in damages than they spend in a club and hiphop venues attract idiots with revolvers. Bling bling...bang bang.

An interesting trend is that country bands seem to get more and better paying bookings. I asked another of my customers why and he told me it's because unlike rock country never abandoned the dancers! In fact, they were seeing more and more younger folks coming to their country gigs because the young girls wanted to dance.

I don't see any point in flogging a dead horse playing bars anymore. We need to find different ways of making money playing professionally. Private clubs and parties might be part of the answer. In the early days of Buddy Holly and the Quarrymen bands would rent their own dance halls and charge admission. Some of that might work too!

One little chippie was in charge of booking bands at a club here in Stoney Creek. She phoned up a bluesman friend of mine to ask if he could play her club on Friday night. Before he could answer she started ragging at him that if they didn't pack the place she'd never have them back!

Now this being a Wednesday the gig was only 2 nights away. My buddy asked her if she usually had a good crowd. She answered "NO! That's why I'm gonna pay you. It's YOUR job to fill the place!"

He asked if they had done any advertising and she said "No, but I shouldn't have to. Doesn't your band have a regular following that will show up?"

That's why I now believe that bands should bail on these kinds of clubs. It's not worth playing for this kind of money and aggravation. The forces that have changed this scene are not going to change more positively in the foreseeable future. It's futile to be a rock against the waves, you only will get ground down. Much better to find a different approach and surf through them!


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## david henman

Wild Bill said:


> It's sad but I truly believe we are witnessing the death of the traditional club scene. There are more reasons than I've stated above (tobacco laws seem to have been a total failure as to bringing non-smokers INTO clubs! If you don't believe me go into a few clubs and count 'em.)


...again, not to stir up an old controversy, but i have to concur, bill. on any given night, the number of people smoking outside is, at the VERY least, DOUBLE the number of non-smokers inside!

great post, bill. i can easily identify with your every word.

the solution i am looking at is getting some product out there and then trying to get on the festival circuit.

-dh


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## james on bass

david henman said:


> ...in fact, many (if not most) of the bar owners i work for don't put the onus on me to draw a crowd. they actually do believe that its their responsibility to bring people into their venue, and my responsibility to not chase them away.
> 
> -dh


Exactly how I feel the onus is for us. I can only ask friends and family to travel so far so often to see us. We show up early, start and finish when the bar owner asks us to, we maybe have 2 drinks each, usually just water and we play a solid mix of tunes that impresses most everyone. Bar owners are always happy to book us back, but always a little embarrassed at turn-outs. I've even had bar-owners call other bars on our behalf (their suggestion) to get us gigs at other bars.


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## FrogRick12

My band does about 100 shows a year. Our ages: 45,48,48,48,52. 

Maybe 3 bars. The rest? CORPORATES!

Law firms, telecom companies, member/guest tournaments at golf courses (this is especially important: well-heeled members at private golf courses have money to burn - and they are all our age! They want classic and 60's rock), fundraising galas, municipal fairs, etc.etc.

Corporations either have to spend their excess profits on lavish parties or pay tax on it. Put the idea in their head first!

Suggestions:

1) Get cozy with a local sound/production company - find out where they have sound systems booked - try to get on the bill or at least get a name.

2) Produce your own show! We do a harbour boat cruise every year for the last 6 years and it's sold out clean every year. 150 tickets @ $60.00 each - do you know 150 people between the 4 or 5 of you? $$$$$!!

There's no reason you can't produce your own NYE gig even if you only have a modest following!

3) Look in the yellow Pages under "Event Planners"! Send them a package!

You don't have a "package"? (bio - marketing kit) - then make one.

Forget about the bars my brothers - those days are over....


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## Milkman

FrogRick12 said:


> My band does about 100 shows a year. Our ages: 45,48,48,48,52.
> 
> Maybe 3 bars. The rest? CORPORATES!
> 
> Law firms, telecom companies, member/guest tournaments at golf courses (this is especially important: well-heeled members at private golf courses have money to burn - and they are all our age! They want classic and 60's rock), fundraising galas, municipal fairs, etc.etc.
> 
> Corporations either have to spend their excess profits on lavish parties or pay tax on it. Put the idea in their head first!
> 
> Suggestions:
> 
> 1) Get cozy with a local sound/production company - find out where they have sound systems booked - try to get on the bill or at least get a name.
> 
> 2) Produce your own show! We do a harbour boat cruise every year for the last 6 years and it's sold out clean every year. 150 tickets @ $60.00 each - do you know 150 people between the 4 or 5 of you? $$$$$!!
> 
> There's no reason you can't produce your own NYE gig even if you only have a modest following!
> 
> 3) Look in the yellow Pages under "Event Planners"! Send them a package!
> 
> You don't have a "package"? (bio - marketing kit) - then make one.
> 
> Forget about the bars my brothers - those days are over....



Good advice



We actually do a few such events each year including a couple of shows we organize ourselves. As a matter of fact our biggest show of the year is our annual summer bash (Saturday July 15 this year) which we hold on a farm in Mount Pleasant.

We have four bands including ours and it's always the most rewarding performance we do each year.


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## david henman

FrogRick12 said:


> My band does about 100 shows a year. Our ages: 45,48,48,48,52.
> Maybe 3 bars. The rest? CORPORATES!
> Law firms, telecom companies, member/guest tournaments at golf courses (this is especially important: well-heeled members at private golf courses have money to burn - and they are all our age! They want classic and 60's rock), fundraising galas, municipal fairs, etc.etc.
> Corporations either have to spend their excess profits on lavish parties or pay tax on it. Put the idea in their head first!
> Suggestions:
> 1) Get cozy with a local sound/production company - find out where they have sound systems booked - try to get on the bill or at least get a name.
> 2) Produce your own show! We do a harbour boat cruise every year for the last 6 years and it's sold out clean every year. 150 tickets @ $60.00 each - do you know 150 people between the 4 or 5 of you? $$$$$!!
> There's no reason you can't produce your own NYE gig even if you only have a modest following!
> 3) Look in the yellow Pages under "Event Planners"! Send them a package!
> You don't have a "package"? (bio - marketing kit) - then make one.
> Forget about the bars my brothers - those days are over....


...great post, brother! much appreciated!

btw, out of curiousity i started a similar thread on the american gear page:

http://thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=152755

-dh


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## james on bass

jroberts said:


> Just out of curiosity, for the guys playing to empty bars, what kind of music do you play?


Classic rock - Zep, Hendrix, Cream, Beatles, Rush, Floyd etc...

Was a little better when I was playing country, but not much.


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## david henman

jroberts said:


> Just out of curiosity, for the guys playing to empty bars, what kind of music do you play?


...classic rock, same as i used to play when the bars were full. 

then, as now, i carefully avoid the 

"mustangsallybrowneyedgirlsomekindofwonderfuloldtimerockandrollsweethomealabama" 

syndrome. 

and no one has ever complained about the fact that i play nearly one half original.

-dh


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## james on bass

david henman said:


> ...then, as now, i carefully avoid the
> 
> "mustangsallybrowneyedgirlsomekindofwonderfuloldtimerockandrollsweethomealabama"
> 
> syndrome.
> 
> -dh



 same as my "refuse to play" list!


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## Ripper

Same problem here in Manitoba. Sometimes the bars are good, sometimes not. From talking to the bar owners, since the smoking ban, crowds are down in general. Smokers hang out with non-smokers and it is seeming like both are staying away. I know some of the smaller bars are only staying open with the help of the VLTs. Also with our heavy drinking and driving laws, the rural bars are hurting, as people are staying home or going to friends, as there isn't a taxi service option.

We've been getting booked to alot more cooperate type functions. We have a house warming party next weekend that there will be over three hundred people at...go figure.

We bring out our own crowd when we can, but we can't always. The local bands have all gotten together and really started to get the word out to locals, friends etc and the crowds are coming back (summer is always good, people home for holidays, kids out of school etc.). I think it is a trend in general that Canadians aren't into the bar/music scene the way they were 20 years ago. Hopefully we can reverse it here. We have seen some of the effects of it with the younger crowd. We've put on free socials etc and it has helped get the names out and people listening. It is a tough road though.


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## PaulS

There is a roadhouse just outside of town, not too big. She usually books bands for Sat nites. She pays between 400-500 depends how smooth you are and the place usually packs. We use to get 500 when we played there a few years back on a regular basis.If anybodies interested i can get contact info.


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## FrogRick12

david henman said:


> ...great post, brother! much appreciated!
> 
> btw, out of curiousity i started a similar thread on the american gear page:
> 
> http://thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=152755
> 
> -dh


You're welcome Dave!

I responded to your post on TGP as it is here but those guys just want to do
the "cover/bar band" vs. "original" band debate and that is just a big bore for me. :zzz:


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## hoser

If you're not out there promoting and advertising your shows, you have no one to blame but yourself if the place is empty. I don't know how bands expect to build a following without doing the work required.
NEVER rely on the club to advertise and promote you. Chances are they won't much, if anything.


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## Ripper

Out where I am, the bands (ours included) DO get out and promote ourselves and each other and the gigs/events. Events that are for something (cancer fundraisers etc) always seem to do okay, but the rest, well. I also beleive that the onus is equally place on both the club/bar owner and the band. The owner needs to promote to keep his place going and the band needs to promote to get more gigs and keep working.

Now I realize I don't have the population base to draw on that some of you do, but people in general are more content to go to someone's house or just stay home that to go and see a show. It's also part of the reason why our area doesn't get the concerts in the main center the way they used to. People were not going.


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## david henman

hoser said:


> If you're not out there promoting and advertising your shows, you have no one to blame but yourself if the place is empty. I don't know how bands expect to build a following without doing the work required.
> NEVER rely on the club to advertise and promote you. Chances are they won't much, if anything.


...i agree, up to a point. if you are a YOUNG original band, its a given that no one is going to pay you to play your music unless you have, as you say, built up a following.

however, cover bands are under no such obligation. especially us *cough* older folks. i'm sorry, but getting a couple of hundred people to follow me to every club i play, every friday and saturday night, is not even in the realm of possibility.

i'm not even sure someone like, say, kim mitchell could pull that off!

-dh


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## keefsdad

david henman said:


> ...i agree, up to a point. if you are a YOUNG original band, its a given that no one is going to pay you to play your music unless you have, as you say, built up a following.
> 
> however, cover bands are under no such obligation. especially us *cough* older folks. i'm sorry, but getting a couple of hundred people to follow me to every club i play, every friday and saturday night, is not even in the realm of possibility.
> 
> i'm not even sure someone like, say, kim mitchell could pull that off!
> 
> -dh


That's probably true, or he'd be playing in town more. I feel some responsibilty to promote my gigs, always have promo up in the club a few days before, and I use an e-mail list to inform people (a great tool, although it doesn't always work, it doesn't require a lot of effort, either.) However, I will never promise X amount of people, I don't have a crystal ball and I expect to be paid no matter what. Haven't been real busy lately, though:tongue: Good thing I have a day job.


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## david henman

jroberts said:


> You can say that it's not your responsibility to promote your own gigs, but if you don't and nobody shows up, you likely won't be invited back. It may not be fair, but it's definately the way it works. Get enough bands that don't draw and the venue owner will eventually switch to a different format. Self-promotion is just a survival strategy. It's all about selling yourself.
> On the issue of format, I suspect this may not be a general problem for bars so much as its a problem for classic rock bars. When I was younger, I went to classic rock bars. I don't do that now. Nor do my friends. I do take in a lot of live music, though, and the scene in my town appears to be generally thriving as far as I can tell from the venues I frequent. Indie pop/rock, folk/blues/country/roots music and open stages all seem to be very well attended. The bottom line is that tastes change. Just because something was popular yesterday doesn't mean that it will continue to be so today.


...again, i respectfully disagree. it is simply not in the realm of possibility for any 30+ cover band to get even 50-100 people to follow them to every show they play, twice weekly. its not even *remotely* possible.

nor is it necessary, unless you are playing in the downtown core. the vast majority of bar owners in the suburbs and, especially, in rural areas don't expect bands to "bring their own crowd". 

in fact, were it possible for 30+ cover bands to "bring their own crowd", i can guarantee you that we would not be playing for the measly $300-$400 that bar owners currently offer.

i would have no problem promoting myself as an original act, and plan to do exactly that. but promote/sell myself as a cover artist? why would i bother?

i agree that the indie scene is thriving, downtown. but you are no doubt well aware that many of those bands are not making a penny. in fact, in many cases it costs them to play.

many people, like you, have simply stopped going to bars to see classic rock bands, for any number of reasons.

-dh


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## david henman

keefsdad said:


> That's probably true, or he'd be playing in town more. I feel some responsibilty to promote my gigs, always have promo up in the club a few days before, and I use an e-mail list to inform people (a great tool, although it doesn't always work, it doesn't require a lot of effort, either.) However, I will never promise X amount of people, I don't have a crystal ball and I expect to be paid no matter what. Haven't been real busy lately, though:tongue: Good thing I have a day job.


...certainly, you do what you can. we always invite friends in the area out to our gigs. i very often send a "package" to the local weekly. and, i will always promote myself at every gig, walking around and getting to know people.

but when a club owner does ask: "do you bring your own audience", i am very likely to say "hey, if i could do that, you couldn't afford me!"

-dh


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## james on bass

jroberts said:


> Yah, but they're playing to full bars.
> 
> I think the real complaint is that it's no longer possible to make a decent living as a touring classic rock cover band. Fair enough. You're absolutely right. The business model of the music industry has changed drastically over the past 20 year in many, many respects due to numerous factors - some technological, some related to consumer tastes, some not even related to music (like the prevelance of other entertainment options - video games, most notably). One of the casualties of the changing industry has been the professional bar band. Those were fun times, but they are probably over.


I just hate playing to an empty bar. I'm not trying to make a living at music. That was my dream almost 20 years ago. I made the decision to pursue my education and a career, start a family and settle down and keep music as a hobby. 
In the year and a half I've been with this band, we've never had a bar not re-book us regardless of the crowd. We supply the bars with posters and such a week or 2 before gigs, and we usually have a couple of family members at each show, but we generally travel to the smaller SW Ontario towns, and I don't expect my friends to follow. They don't want to pay a babysitter to come see me, nor do I expect them to.


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## Wild Bill

*Anybody will buy what's free!*



jroberts said:


> I'm just pointing out the reality that if people aren't coming of their own accord, and if you're not bringing them in, you run the risk of the owner saying "Screw it, I'm getting a DJ!" If there isn't an inherent market for your product, you'd better either: (1) create one; (2) change your product; or (3) be prepared to go out of business. Relying on someone else to create the market for you is pretty risky.
> 
> 
> 
> Yah, but they're playing to full bars.
> 
> I think the real complaint is that it's no longer possible to make a decent living as a touring classic rock cover band. Fair enough. You're absolutely right. The business model of the music industry has changed drastically over the past 20 year in many, many respects due to numerous factors - some technological, some related to consumer tastes, some not even related to music (like the prevelance of other entertainment options - video games, most notably). One of the casualties of the changing industry has been the professional bar band. Those were fun times, but they are probably over.


I have nephews in the indie rock scene so by going out to see them I get some perspective. 

You're quite correct that these new bands draw a good crowd. Big deal! It's also true that they play for free! In fact, at some venues they have to sell enough beer tickets amongst their friends before they're ALLOWED to play for free!

So your point about playing to full bars has little to do with what the market wants. Anybody will take anything that's free! And you get what you pay for...

That's likely why these players are all so young. As soon as they leave their parents' nest and have to pay bills they won't be able to afford playing out anymore.

This may also be why much of today's indie music is simpler. In the 70's you could play for pay for weeks and months on end. You could really practice your chops. Playing in the basement and a few free gigs is just not the same opportunity.

As for marketability, we've discussed this before in other threads. Clubs are smaller and offer less. The people that liked coming out for a classic rock cover band drifted away because they liked the environment in the clubs less and less, not because they changed their taste in music. Do you really think that everyone over 30 suddenly lost all interest in the music they had grown up listening to? And bailed on clubs because they got addicted to Xboxes?

I think you left out one big factor in your reasons for changing tastes - social engineering! I cannot believe it was just coincidence that I saw attendance take a big hit in the early 80's when the RIDE programs kicked in and during the 90's with the tobacco bans. These factors have nothing to do with people voluntarily drifting off into new areas of entertainment. Their preferred areas of entertainment were deliberately made less attractive to them. There wasn't much this audience could do about it but there was no law that said they HAD to keep coming out!

I would say that perhaps half of my amp customers are Baby Boomer "Weekend Warriors". They used to play but got sidetracked by starting a family and climbing the corporate ladder with their job. Now the kids are old enough not to need a sitter and the job is mature so they start playing again. Virtually all of them tell me that they tried going back out to visit bars and couldn't find anything to their taste anymore.

Now these folks have much more disposable money for entertainment than the average slamdancer. What's more, they're Boomers! There's a LOT of them!

So why do we not see clubs catering to them?

The sad answer is that the clubs either can't afford to change or have new laws preventing them.

Which is why a winery held an open house party in Beamsville, Ontario with a rockin' blues band. And the popularity of those other corporate gigs mentioned.

Boomers still want their music, with beer and dancing. They have the money to pay for it and they're far from dead yet! But they are NOT going to adapt to new offerings they don't like but rather will find another offering more to their taste.

We Boomers have been spoiled as we used the weight of our numbers to get whatever we wanted for decades now. I find it difficult to believe this factor is over yet. As long as we can wave numbers and money someone somewhere will find a way to give us the entertainment we want. I'm not sure just what new business model is coming down the pipe but I don't believe that it will be alt.hardcore, at least not in its present form. The slamdancing crowd simply doesn't have the money to be an attractive enough market.

Maybe the next few years will prove interesting after all...


----------



## Lester B. Flat

I've noticed since the indie scene took off over the last fifteen years that the whole dynamic of the bar scene has changed from one of a place for bands to "earn a living" to a place to "promote yourself". Us older guys find that hard to deal with but the younger guys see playing for free as a way to get seen and heard and sell CD's. They're looking beyond. 

You can see the bar as an end or merely the means to an end. If the club owners can pack a bar with a free band as opposed to paying for one, they are in most cases going to be swayed by economics unless they are patrons of the arts.

If both the band and the club do their own promotion, it's best for both parties. The bar shoudn't blame the band for a bad turnout and vice versa, but ultimately both are responsible for their own fates.

I just joined a blues band of 50 somethings. These guys have the attitude of being "done". They are happy playing for fun once a month and don't care about money. I'm cool with that. On the other hand, I am "not yet done" and the current bar scene has me hesitant on starting another serious project. Doing corporate gigs may be fine if you are puttin' on the hits but if you are doing original material, or heaven forbid, an undefined genre, I don't think it would fly. The audience can't find you at a corporate gig, the audience comes with the gig.

As always, it's heads-up hockey in the music biz! :rockon:


----------



## Wild Bill

*There's always a reason behind everything...*



jroberts said:


> You seem to have missed the title of this thread.


Not at all! Saying "I hate empty bars!" implies you'd favour a change. Discussion evolves from the reasons that generate the statement. Why are the bars empty and what can you do about it? Otherwise its just mindless bitching to no useful purpose.

And when the only venue that can fill does it with free music that means that it cannot survive indefinitely. SOMEONE has to pay the bills!

It's like downloading. Everybody does it but if a band doesn't make some money sometime from somewhere the guys will have no choice but to quit and find a paying job. You can't live on air.

In your scenario, the bar owner gets money or the suits at a label get money. 99% of the musicians get diddley-squat.

If you think that it's ok for musicians to never be able to make a living just by playing and have to always have a day job then that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. I happen to disagree. If we took a vote amongst players I think I'd likely outdraw you in support. 

Especially at rent and mealtimes!


----------



## david henman

jroberts said:


> I'm just pointing out the reality that if people aren't coming of their own accord, and if you're not bringing them in, you run the risk of the owner saying "Screw it, I'm getting a DJ!" If there isn't an inherent market for your product, you'd better either: (1) create one; (2) change your product; or (3) be prepared to go out of business. Relying on someone else to create the market for you is pretty risky.


...you make it sound it sound so easy. if its so easy, then surely you can educate us all: HOW is it done? give us a surefire formula to get even TWENTY people to follow a 30+ band to two gigs per week, and we'll all blow you...a kiss:tongue:!!!

you can only do what is realistic. ultimately, you have to rely on your hard-earned skills, not as a marketer, but as a player and entertainer. i never picked up the guitar so that i could become a marketer. 

-dh


----------



## david henman

Lester B. Flat said:


> I've noticed since the indie scene took off over the last fifteen years that the whole dynamic of the bar scene has changed from one of a place for bands to "earn a living" to a place to "promote yourself". Us older guys find that hard to deal with but the younger guys see playing for free as a way to get seen and heard and sell CD's. They're looking beyond.


...because they can, and more power to them!

-dh


----------



## david henman

Lester B. Flat said:


> I just joined a blues band of 50 somethings. These guys have the attitude of being "done". They are happy playing for fun once a month and don't care about money. I'm cool with that. On the other hand, I am "not yet done" and the current bar scene has me hesitant on starting another serious project. QUOTE]
> 
> ...i hear you! get with it, brother. don't make the mistake i did and wait until you're, like, 55, to start your own project.
> 
> -dh


----------



## david henman

james on bass said:


> I just hate playing to an empty bar. I'm not trying to make a living at music. That was my dream almost 20 years ago. I made the decision to pursue my education and a career, start a family and settle down and keep music as a hobby.
> In the year and a half I've been with this band, we've never had a bar not re-book us regardless of the crowd. We supply the bars with posters and such a week or 2 before gigs, and we usually have a couple of family members at each show, but we generally travel to the smaller SW Ontario towns, and I don't expect my friends to follow. They don't want to pay a babysitter to come see me, nor do I expect them to.


...couldn't have said it better!

:food-smiley-015: 

-dh


----------



## david henman

jroberts said:


> I think the real complaint is that it's no longer possible to make a decent living as a touring classic rock cover band. Fair enough. You're absolutely right. The business model of the music industry has changed drastically over the past 20 year in many, many respects due to numerous factors - some technological, some related to consumer tastes, some not even related to music (like the prevelance of other entertainment options - video games, most notably). One of the casualties of the changing industry has been the professional bar band. Those were fun times, but they are probably over.


...you're probably not going to get an argument on this because, the truth is, you may be right. but, if you are right, then is there any point in flogging a dead horse (see thread title)? 

like your younger bands, i'm looking "beyond". i know there's no "future" in playing covers in a bar (and never has been) - the only reason to do it is to get paid to play or, simply, to play. now that my own band is complete, i'm entering a period of intense recording, with the goal of getting some product out there so that i can get on the festival circuit and, eventually, promote my own shows. but i'll still rely on the bars to fill in open dates, because its about playing as much and as often as possible, otherwise it IS "just a hobby".

-dh


----------



## Lester B. Flat

> ...i hear you! get with it, brother. don't make the mistake i did and wait until you're, like, 55, to start your own project.
> 
> -dh


I guess I'd better get at it since I'm already 52!
:food-smiley-015:


----------



## Milkman

I guess a lot really depends on what you want out of the playing experience.


It would seem that the glory days of club bands playing covers (and a few originals mixed in) to packed houses all over Canada may be gone.

It's simply a different culture and market now than when I ws touring through the 80s (with an overlap into the 70s).

Clubs used to run bands six and sometimes seven nights a week. All the bands on the circuit I was on brought in full production (PA, Lights, crew).
The money was there because the audiences were there.

Now, clubs pay a fraction of what they used to, and bands (most bands) that are out there have scaled back production accordingly.


I suppose, although I AM shopping a CD of original music around, the reality is that industry types want a sexy young front man. The music is really secondary to marketability.

We do our best to let our fans know when and where we're playing and a percentage of them generally do show up.
Playing once a month makes this more practical than if you're playing every weekend.

Tommorrow night I'll be playing to several hundred people at our own independant (annual) summer bash. I expect to have a ball, make a few bucks and wake up (if I go to bed) feeling pretty good about the whole thing.


----------



## Lester B. Flat

I agree with FrogRick's advice, if you are playing in a classic rock band then corporate type gigs are the way to go. I did that back in the mid 80's and made lots of money and had lots of fun.

However, in 1989 I decided I'd had enough and didn't feel like playing Smoke on the Water anymore than Ritchie Blackmore did. I started a new band doing mostly original material and re-arranged covers. That band played the bars through most of the 90's. We also did some Jazz and Blues festivals although the material covered other ground as well.

It seems that guys like me, mature musicians who are still interested in introducing something new to the world, are particularly stifled by the dwindling bar scene. It's not going to stop me from writing and recording but it severely limits growing an audience or generating any sort of income.

If money is the object, there are certainly ways of making it by playing what sells, but if music is the object, gigging opportunities have been drastically cut in number and frequency.


----------



## david henman

jroberts said:


> Well, there are two separate issues. Playing to decent sized crowds and making decent money playing music are two different goals that don't necessarily have the same solution. There are ways to play to good sized crowds if you don't care about the money.
> If you want to make money from music, though, the ways to accomplish that now are different than the ways people accomplished that 15 years ago. And I'm talking about the whole business of music, not just playing live (though that's a big part of it). These days, you have to be much more entrepreneurial about it (see FrogRick's post). There's no longer an industry machinery that you just plug into.


...i agree with much of this. as well, i think someone here suggested that poor quality classic rock bands regurgitating the same six classic rock songs for the past forty years may have contributed to the demise of the bar scene. that is probably true, as well.

-dh


----------



## CocoTone

There is no easy answer. Ideally, your band would be, tight, rehearsed, have something new to offer every time they come out to see you , have some sort of show, and if not, be real whitty and have a good repartee with the audience. The sound would be at least good,,,not too loud, not too quiet. 
Now for the venue owner. Advertise on a regular basis. Have the $$$ to be able to run throught the skinny times, long enough to get a rep for having great live entertainment. Offer some sort of keys to us service, so that people can drink a few and get home with license intact. You get the pic. Our own morals and societal priorities have created our dillema.
My band is pretty good as a cover, and blues band. And we play oin a pretty small market. The only venue that we can fill on a regular basis is a club that we've been steady at for almost two years now. They come, because they are our age, we are good, and we try to fufill the reqwuirements I laid out in the first paragraph. Doesn't always work out that way, but we get aces fer tryin`. 

CT.


----------



## james on bass

CocoTone said:


> There is no easy answer. Ideally, your band would be, tight, rehearsed, have something new to offer every time they come out to see you , have some sort of show, and if not, be real whitty and have a good repartee with the audience. The sound would be at least good,,,not too loud, not too quiet.
> Now for the venue owner. Advertise on a regular basis. Have the $$$ to be able to run throught the skinny times, long enough to get a rep for having great live entertainment. Offer some sort of keys to us service, so that people can drink a few and get home with license intact. You get the pic. Our own morals and societal priorities have created our dillema.
> My band is pretty good as a cover, and blues band. And we play oin a pretty small market. The only venue that we can fill on a regular basis is a club that we've been steady at for almost two years now. They come, because they are our age, we are good, and we try to fufill the reqwuirements I laid out in the first paragraph. Doesn't always work out that way, but we get aces fer tryin`.
> 
> CT.


I like your attitude. Need a bass player? :wave:


----------



## CocoTone

james on bass said:


> I like your attitude. Need a bass player? :wave:


Ya never know. Actually looking for a drummer right now.

CT.


----------



## david henman

...good post, cocotone. i'm beginning to think the decline of live rock bars (aside from the indie scene, about which i know far too little) is the result of a number of factors:

1. RIDE programs
2. smoking bans
3. mediocre bands regurgitating the same six songs decade after decade
4. bar owners that don't realize that times have changed
5. bar owners that render their venues inhospitable

this last one bugs me a lot. how can you expect people to come into your establishment and contribute to your profit margin if you hire poorly trained staff and keep the place looking like a pigsty, especially the facilities?

addendum to item 4: bar owners must realize that you can no longer hang an "open" sign on your door and expect people to magically appear, or expect the bands to do all the promoting for you.

-dh


----------



## Milkman

jroberts said:


> What is a RIDE program? Is that an Ontario thing?



It's a police acticity that helps to remove drunks from the road and helps to deter other drunks from driving.


----------



## james on bass

jroberts said:


> What is a RIDE program? Is that an Ontario thing?


Checkstops. Usually around peak bar hours, and always during the holidays.


----------



## Milkman

james on bass said:


> Checkstops. Usually around peak bar hours, and always during the holidays.



That would be when there are the most drunks on the road.

Nothing wrong with the RIDE program in my opinion. I'm always glad to be stopped by them and offer my thanks and encouragement.


----------



## Chito

IMO, as opposed to what most people perceive as the main reason why people don't go to bars nowadays which is the smoking ban, the ride program has been the biggest factor in the diminishing number of people going out to bars/pubs. Not that I have issues with the ride program, I think it's an excellent deterrent for people who drink and drive. But it's not always easy to find a designated driver and getting a cab can become very expensive specially if you live in the suburbs. So most people stay home.


----------



## Milkman

Chito said:


> IMO, as opposed to what most people perceive as the main reason why people don't go to bars nowadays which is the smoking ban, the ride program has been the biggest factor in the diminishing number of people going out to bars/pubs. Not that I have issues with the ride program, I think it's an excellent deterrent for people who drink and drive. But it's not always easy to find a designated driver and getting a cab can become very expensive specially if you live in the suburbs. So most people stay home.



I don't know that it's either the smoking ban OR the RIDE program.

After all, the RIDE program is really only in effect for holidays and long weekends and bars have never really been busy at those times.

I think it's a changing world and there are many modes of entertainment available that weren't years ago.


It may well be that the day of the cover band playing to packed houses is behind us. I'll keep playing until it's no longer fun and hopefully it won't be to empty houses.

For the most part that hasn't been the case, but it does happen.


----------



## david henman

Milkman said:


> That would be when there are the most drunks on the road.
> Nothing wrong with the RIDE program in my opinion. I'm always glad to be stopped by them and offer my thanks and encouragement.



...same here. i always get a little chuckle out of answering "well, i've spent the last eight hours in a bar but, no, officer, not a drop." they look a little confused until they see all the gear piled in the back seat of the little toyota.

-dh


----------



## Milkman

david henman said:


> ...same here. i always get a little chuckle out of answering "well, i've spent the last eight hours in a bar but, no, officer, not a drop." they look a little confused until they see all the gear piled in the back seat of the little toyota.
> 
> -dh


Hmmm, I thought I was one of the very few players who don't drink.


:food-smiley-004:


----------



## Chito

Milkman said:


> Hmmm, I thought I was one of the very few players who don't drink.
> 
> 
> :food-smiley-004:


Have been stopped quite a few times actually and when asked if I have had a drink, I tell them no. Most times they use their flashlight to check whats in the car and when they see the gear and stuff, they just let me go. I've stopped drinking alcohol during gigs for about 13 years now.


----------



## Milkman

Chito said:


> Have been stopped quite a few times actually and when asked if I have had a drink, I tell them no. Most times they use their flashlight to check whats in the car and when they see the gear and stuff, they just let me go. I've stopped drinking alcohol during gigs for about 13 years now.



I've stopped almost entirely. No particular reason. I just lost the taste for it.


----------



## PaulS

Count me in, it's a rare occasion I have a drink in the bar and if I do it's just one. Years back I figured out I was giving them back there money and it really doesn't do much for the playing....


----------



## james on bass

I rarely drink during gigs, other than lots of water. I find it unprofessional to be boozing on stage.

I actually had a bartender yell at me for ordering water when he had paying customers he could be serving.


----------



## Milkman

I just freeze six bottles solid at home and bring them to the gig. They thaw as the night wears on and it's a lot cheaper. Bloody bar owners. Maybe one in ten will give the band free water. Most will charge you $2.00 a bottle.


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## david henman

Milkman said:


> Hmmm, I thought I was one of the very few players who don't drink. :food-smiley-004:


...been there, done that, for way too long. in almost every band i've been in, i tried to institute a policy of partying AFTER the show but, eventually, you end up thinking "can't beat 'em, might as well join 'em." as well, now that i'm the singer, i _can't_ drink. 

for me, its enough knowing that there's a double whiskey, a fattie and a live performance dvd waiting at home.

when you're young, you can get away with a lot. i think, when you're older, booze really does impair your performance.

-dh


----------



## Milkman

david henman said:


> ...been there, done that, for way too long. in almost every band i've been in, i tried to institute a policy of partying AFTER the show but, eventually, you end up thinking "can't beat 'em, might as well join 'em." as well, now that i'm the singer, i _can't_ drink.
> 
> for me, its enough knowing that there's a double whiskey, a fattie and a live performance dvd waiting at home.
> 
> when you're young, you can get away with a lot. i think, when you're older, booze really does impair your performance.
> 
> -dh



Right on.

I've never been a big drinker, but I have had one or two during a performance on rare occasions.

One thing I've never done is walk on stage stoned. I like a nice doobie when the time is right, but not when I have to play.


After the show?

What's the harm?:food-smiley-004:


----------



## Lowtones

I played a gig with a buddy of mine in Pretoria, South Africa last Friday. it was like going back 20 years. It was a large pub full of happy, smoking drinkers. People kept bringing me beer and shooters right up till the end. The place started to clear out at around midnight and we played until 12:30. By the end of the night I had a table full of beer & shooters that went untouched. I couldn't drink that much in a week. I had a great time and it just reminded me of a better time for players a while back.:food-smiley-015:


----------



## james on bass

Had a gig last night at the Derby in Strathroy, and it was quite busy! Lots of fun playing to a busy bar with people singing along, dancing, screaming etc...

Broke my own rules about drinking though. The bar owner had a 2-4 of beer on ice in the back lounge for us, so I had to have a few.


----------



## PaulS

Once in a while it's ok to slip James, sounds like the atmosphere in the club led you a stray . Sounds like it was a good one....


----------



## ne1roc

Smoking laws definitely have something to do with smaller crowds. Competition is probably the biggest factor though. 15-20 years ago, there were much fewer bars around. Less choices for the audience. Today your choices of where to go for a good time are almost unlimited. Also, bring in the factor that kids over the last 15 years have been brought up with crap as far as music is concerned. Live music is once again on a resurgence, thank God. Its refreshing to see all these kids really starting to get into instruments and bands once again. Maybe that will liven up the live music scene in the near future.

For any of you guys/gals who play the covers that everyone wants to hear, there are to very good venues in Mississauga. "On The Curve" and "The Mustard Grill" are hopping. Always a big crowd that likes to dance. I wish my band was good enough to play there. 

Of course, Van Halen, AC/DC, LedZepplin just don't cut it at the bars these days.:frown:


----------



## hammer744

ne1roc said:


> .....
> 
> For any of you guys/gals who play the covers that everyone wants to hear, there are to very good venues in Mississauga. "On The Curve" and "The Mustard Grill" are hopping. Always a big crowd that likes to dance. I wish my band was good enough to play there.
> 
> Of course, Van Halen, AC/DC, LedZepplin just don't cut it at the bars these days.:frown:


We find that AC/DC still goes over quite well (we have 4 that we do), and we get requests for Zeppelin, but Van Halen doesn't seem to go over very well...


----------



## axepilot

Wow!

Looks like my brothers up north are experiencing the same pain we are here in the States. New Jersey enacted it's smoking ban this past April, and it *tanked* the bar business. Before the ban, we were offered too many gigs to accept, and we played to packed houses. Now, we work our tails off getting the word out to get folks in. At some bars, we'd do better playing outside in the smoking area - that's where everyone is!


----------



## elindso

Interesting thread. Sounds like the same problem right across Canada and down in the states also.

My friends son plays in a band in Montreal, they get pretty good crowsa and have a following. They are all about 25 and only do origional stuff.

The bands gets around $500 to a grand a gig and they sold 1000 ep CDs at the gigs and stores in town.

I've been to lots of their gigs and the places are usually crowded.

Maybe Montreal is similar to Toronto for the young folks.


----------



## david henman

...i'm about to try an experiment.

i have a classic rock trio of guys in our forties and fifties. we have been beating our heads against this wall for a couple of years, and we are really, really tired of playing empty bars. realizing that we have virtually nothing to lose, we are going to make the transition from cover band to original act. 

immediately.

stay tuned...

-dh


----------



## Milkman

david henman said:


> ...i'm about to try an experiment.
> 
> i have a classic rock trio of guys in our forties and fifties. we have been beating our heads against this wall for a couple of years, and we are really, really tired of playing empty bars. realizing that we have virtually nothing to lose, we are going to make the transition from cover band to original act.
> 
> immediately.
> 
> stay tuned...
> 
> -dh


I'd love to hear some of the material David.

Good luck with this.

We sort of walk on both sides of that street.

If a gig presents itself that is better suited to all originals, we have the CD and can do it.

I do enjoy playing the classic rock tunes that I grew up with though. There still seems to be enough bodies in the seats to keep us coming back.


----------



## david henman

Milkman said:


> I'd love to hear some of the material David.
> Good luck with this.
> We sort of walk on both sides of that street.
> If a gig presents itself that is better suited to all originals, we have the CD and can do it.
> I do enjoy playing the classic rock tunes that I grew up with though. There still seems to be enough bodies in the seats to keep us coming back.


...it will certainly present some new challenges. we will have to go the extra mile to promote our gigs. as well, we will no longer be able to simply walk on stage and churn out the covers - we'll have to pay special attention to presentation, ambience, pacing etc etc.

it could be interesting and challenging. or, we may discover that no one will book us until we have a video in high rotation...

-dh


----------



## Milkman

david henman said:


> ...it will certainly present some new challenges. we will have to go the extra mile to promote our gigs. as well, we will no longer be able to simply walk on stage and churn out the covers - we'll have to pay special attention to presentation, ambience, pacing etc etc.
> 
> it could be interesting and challenging. or, we may discover that no one will book us until we have a video in high rotation...
> 
> -dh



Well, again I wish you the best of luck.

Maybe we can learn from your experiences if you care to share them.


----------



## Guest

"I hate empty bars!"
Really? I look at it as getting paid to do what I'd most likley be doing at home anyway.... If the room is empty, I can spend the night doing what -I- want, trying new stuff, trying new takes on old stuff, and generally entertaining myself.... If the room is packed, then I gotta whore myself playing whiskeyinthejarwildroverblackvelvetbanddrunkensailorlukeysboat crap all night.... Don't get me wrong, I don't mind at all (And I have fun doing it... It's gotten me laid) but I'd rather play for myself sometimes.... 

"Smoking Laws"
If anything, my local is seeing MORE people out FOR THE MUSIC since smoking was banned... It's great! And it smells a hellavalot better!

Gimme a small, non-smoking, listening crowd ANYTIME over a room full of loud stanky drunks, who request loud fast garbage and then don't even listen to it


----------



## james on bass

ClintonHammond said:


> "I hate empty bars!"
> Really? I look at it as getting paid to do what I'd most likley be doing at home anyway.... If the room is empty, I can spend the night doing what -I- want, trying new stuff, trying new takes on old stuff, and generally entertaining myself.... If the room is packed, then I gotta whore myself playing whiskeyinthejarwildroverblackvelvetbanddrunkensailorlukeysboat crap all night.... Don't get me wrong, I don't mind at all (And I have fun doing it... It's gotten me laid) but I'd rather play for myself sometimes....
> 
> "Smoking Laws"
> If anything, my local is seeing MORE people out FOR THE MUSIC since smoking was banned... It's great! And it smells a hellavalot better!
> 
> Gimme a small, non-smoking, listening crowd ANYTIME over a room full of loud stanky drunks, who request loud fast garbage and then don't even listen to it


I must disagree with you on some of your post. Because the room is nearly empty doesn't mean you can go all avante-garde and techy - you still need to have music the patrons and bar-owner/manager likes, or you will not be invited back. Crowd or no crowd, you are being paid to provide the entertainment you said you would.

I do agree that empty or not, I'm getting paid to play music which beats sitting at home, or spending money elsewhere, but the original rant of my post was that I (and my band) play so much better, and feel so much more inspired to play well when there is a room full of people.

And yes, I too love not having to change clothes in the garage when I get home from a gig and that my gear does not reak of stale smoke!


----------



## Ripper

the smell of spilt beer, stale smoke ahhhh. I guess is must be the old roadhouse hound in me.


----------



## Guest

"You never got laid in any bar singin' no songs"

Shows what you know....

"you still need to have music the patrons..."
And a bar with no patrons is a paid rehearsal.... 

" and bar-owner/manager likes"
I know bar owners/managers that book music they don't personally like all the time....


----------



## james on bass

ClintonHammond said:


> " and bar-owner/manager likes"
> I know bar owners/managers that book music they don't personally like all the time....



Don't mis-quote me if you disagree with my statement. I said "...Patrons and bar-owner/manager likes".


----------



## Guest

And I address both patrons and bar owners/managers separately....

As far as patrons go, the renown acting teacher Michael Shurtleff once said

"You can't do a fkng thing about the audience, so why worry about them."


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## Seaners

ClintonHammond said:


> And I address both patrons and bar owners/managers separately....
> 
> As far as patrons go, the renown acting teacher Michael Shurtleff once said
> 
> "You can't do a fkng thing about the audience, so why worry about them."


HHmm, perhaps a bad attitude for being a performer. Without the audience, would there be anything?


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## Guest

One cannot have 'artistic integrity' and succumb to every whim of every person who ever experiences your 'art'.... 

One must perform first and foremost for ones self.... Otherwise there is no sincerity (Not that there always HAS to be sencerity.... )


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## elindso

Sincerity, yeah right!

I'm ripe to sell out.  :wink: 

No offer will be turned away.

All offers will be considered.:smile:


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## Guest

LOL!!

Well, that's a certain kind of sincerity too!!


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## Ripper

ClintonHammond said:


> One cannot have 'artistic integrity' and succumb to every whim of every person who ever experiences your 'art'....
> 
> One must perform first and foremost for ones self.... Otherwise there is no sincerity (Not that there always HAS to be sencerity.... )



So what exactly is artistic integrity? I've seen alot of people over the last 40 years use alot of different takes on that phrase to explain everything from incredibly strange behaviour to just a plain reason as to why they didn't want to do something? Playing music, just like any other trade, craft or job, sometimes entails playing or doing things you might not exactly want to. 

The patrons are ultimately those that determine your success.


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## PaulS

Ripper said:


> The patrons are ultimately those that determine your success.


I agree, if you can keep them coming back you have to be doing something right.. :food-smiley-015:


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## david henman

ClintonHammond said:


> "Smoking Laws"
> If anything, my local is seeing MORE people out FOR THE MUSIC since smoking was banned... It's great! And it smells a hellavalot better!


...i'm definitely not seeing that here in the gta. the number of people in the outdoor smoking area easily doubles, triples or quadruples the number of non-smokers inside.

-dh


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