# Singing lead tones, possible with low wattage amp?



## Stiman (Oct 17, 2010)

Hey everyone, first post here. Can't believe I never found this forum before.

I've searched for a long time for this information on other people's threads about small wattage amps...

I'm looking to get close to Petrucci's tone, singing leads and prog metal sounds. Vai and Satriani tones as well. I know that Petrucci uses the Mesa 5:50 or 5:25 combo for backstage practice, and I'm really considering getting one of these, but I'm worried about paying $1500 (+/-) for playing at home at low volumes.

My question is, would it be possible to get these tones with a Blackstar HT-5 or Ht20, JCA20h, Marshall Class5, or any other 5-20 watts tube amp?

For what it's worth:
I should mention that I have NO intentions of gigging or playing in a band.
I play a Jackson DK2M with Dimarzio Crunch Lab and Liquifire pickups (Petrucci's signature pickups).
I have an Epiphone Valve Jr. head with JJ el84 and EH 12AX7, which I love for clean, blues, jazz and rock tones. It doesn't do the singing lead tone thing, I've tried.

Thanks


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Welcome!

His tone is really in his fingers but not to hard to do gear wise.
A good boost or volume pedal will push your leads to the front, a tube screamer set up well can give you that singing lead.

The most imprortant thing is the level of gain, less is more in this case.
A two channel amp may also work well as you can have your rythem set on the dirty channel and your leads on the clean but with the boost. It would take a bit of dancing to switch channels and pedal but can be done.

Start with some pedals, rent or borrow till you find what works.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

With the pickups in the DK2M, you're already hot enough to goose a nice tube amp into overdrive. Like Bevo said, look for a nice overdrive pedal to push the front of your amp into more drive. There's no reason why the Valve Jr. won't give up nice singing lead tones. It already gets pretty crunchy, you just need to hit it a bit harder to get that nice sustain.

I'd suggest you start with something like a Tubescreamer, a Boss SD-1 or a Danelectro Cool Cat drive pedal and set it to low gain and high volume. That'll smack around the preamp of your Epi and cause it to breakup more. Voila, more sustain.

And the best part is, you can get any of these pedals for between $40-75. Nice, cheap fix! Mind, you, it won't sound like Vai or Petrucci on record, because you don't have the same rig or processing, but you'll definitely get a more singing lead tone.


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## Decibel Guitars (Oct 14, 2010)

The Mesa Express amps will do a singing tone really nicely.


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## Stiman (Oct 17, 2010)

Thanks for the replies.

I have tried to place an overdrive in front of it. I have the Modtone speedbox distortion, which imo is pretty mellow, more of an overdrive. I've played around with the settings quite a bit. The best settings I've found were Tone at 12:00, Volume at 4:00 and Gain at 9:00.

I think the lack of sustain might actually be coming from the shitty speaker I have in the 1x12 cab I'm using with the Valve Jr. I have a custom made 1x12 cab, with a Celestion Seventy 80 speaker. The speaker is rated at 80 watts I believe. I'm really convinced, as you guys have said, that I SHOULD be able to get a good lead tone with this amp and an OD pedal. So I'm concluding that the speaker is the problem.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Stiman said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> I have tried to place an overdrive in front of it. I have the Modtone speedbox distortion, which imo is pretty mellow, more of an overdrive. I've played around with the settings quite a bit. The best settings I've found were Tone at 12:00, Volume at 4:00 and Gain at 9:00.
> 
> I think the lack of sustain might actually be coming from the shitty speaker I have in the 1x12 cab I'm using with the Valve Jr. I have a custom made 1x12 cab, with a Celestion Seventy 80 speaker. The speaker is rated at 80 watts I believe. I'm really convinced, as you guys have said, that I SHOULD be able to get a good lead tone with this amp and an OD pedal. So I'm concluding that the speaker is the problem.


I had that same speaker in a Traynor combo. It definitely could be the issue. The Seventy 80 is Celestions cheapie OEM speaker that goes in anything that had to meet a price point. Something with good efficiency will help the amp come alive, like a V30, or something like a Greenback might help the amp breakup a bit earlier so that the amp is already crunchier prior to getting hit with the OD pedal. If you can swing it, buy a cab with a Greenback or similar in it (like the Traynor Darkhorse cab) and take it home for a trial and see what you think. You can also rent one, or take your amp in to the store, but you might not be able to turn up as loud as you need in this instance.


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## Stiman (Oct 17, 2010)

Yeah, I think I'm convinced now. I'm either going to rent a cab or two, or if I find a great deal on a used v30 or gb I'll just get it.

I was really starting to get confused when people say that when you krank a tube amp you get that sweet sagging sustain tone, only to get the opposite result when I go home and krank my amp.


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## Andy (Sep 23, 2007)

Yeah, a tubescreamer and a speaker may get you a *little* closer, but I've never liked the Valve Junior.

My new favourite small amp is the Vox AC-4. One of those, into a cab (make sure it's 16 ohms) with a good Brit-flavoured speaker (I bet the Private Jack would be a nice match) and a TS-808 out front would be an incredible low-watt rig for not much money. In fact, a good $100 clean boost could get you very similar results, and you save a good chunk there.


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## Stiman (Oct 17, 2010)

If I do end up getting a v30 or a GB, would you suggest the 8 ohms or 16 ohms?
Thanks


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Not sure if its the speaker although it may be holding you back for tone and quality.
Steamco is in your city, pick up a wharehouse brand speaker for less the $100 for a cheap improvement. If you using your VJ, look at the efficiancy rating of each, going up 3db is doubling your volume.

If you think of a 5150 or one of the high gain amps, you could hit a note put the guitar on the stand go have a beer come back and it will still be going crazy. Bad example but you get the idea, different speakers make less of a difference than the amp.

Look into a used Marshall tube head like the lower watt JCM 2 channels, tons of power but sustain for days and the two channels will give you a nice lead sound. Peavey in a 5150 would also be killer, they do play well at lower volumes so don't be scared.
Mesa's are great but you have to pay, also look for some of the older low watt heads they made, good stuff there for decent money.


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## Stiman (Oct 17, 2010)

Bevo, I know what you mean about the 5150. I'm wondering which 5-20 amp (that would be cheaper than a Mesa Express 5:50) that can do the lead tone best. I once owned a DSL40 (for about 2 hours) but I had to take it back because I couldn't get it to sound good at low volumes. It sounded amazing when pushed even a little bit, but not at the low volumes I needed.
Does anyone know if the Haze 15 or the Class 5 can get the DSL lead tone at low volumes?


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Stiman said:


> Bevo, I know what you mean about the 5150. I'm wondering which 5-20 amp (that would be cheaper than a Mesa Express 5:50) that can do the lead tone best. I once owned a DSL40 (for about 2 hours) but I had to take it back because I couldn't get it to sound good at low volumes. It sounded amazing when pushed even a little bit, but not at the low volumes I needed.
> Does anyone know if the Haze 15 or the Class 5 can get the DSL lead tone at low volumes?


Hmm, maybe your problem isn't the amp, it's the volume. How far up is your Epi VJ? You're not going to get good singing lead tones with sustain at low volumes. You're going to have to either turn up, or use an attenuator to bring the levels down after you turn up. Even thought it's 5w, the VJ can get pretty loud, so if you're only at 9 o'clock or 11 o'clock on the volume dial, you're gonna need to crank that sucker 'round a little more.

That's the problem with tube amps, they all have a sweet spot that you need to find before they really come alive and start to sound good. In your situation, if 5w is too much then I would back-up Andy's recommendation of the Vox AC4 with it's 1/4 watt setting, which will give you good crunch but at a significantly reduced volume.


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## The Kicker Of Elves (Jul 20, 2006)

Andy said:


> Yeah, a tubescreamer and a speaker may get you a *little* closer, but I've never liked the Valve Junior.
> 
> My new favourite small amp is the Vox AC-4. One of those, into a cab (make sure it's 16 ohms) with a good Brit-flavoured speaker (I bet the Private Jack would be a nice match) and a TS-808 out front would be an incredible low-watt rig for not much money. In fact, a good $100 clean boost could get you very similar results, and you save a good chunk there.


It's always interesting how different people have different experiences...I tried out the AC-4 and didn't mind it. My Valve Jr head sounds great to me however, both into the stock 1x12 and into an ooolllld 1x12 that I got from greco that has...a Private Jack. That cabinet lives, with a mic in front of it, under a heavy quilted shipping blanket.

It's sad that the Jr (that I spent $100 on) sounds far better than the ver1.0 YCV20 I spent far too much for used, and then spent a pile of $ upgrading...

Back to the OP, I've found that just about any tone is available with my Valve Jr, it all depends on what pedal is in front of it.

I will admit I haven't found the ideal pedal for super modern metal tones, but I haven't tried a lot so far.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

You may need to learn how to cheap the amp by using pedal or better a volume pedal.
By having the amp in the sweet spot with tons of sustain yet super loud you use the pedal to roll back the volume.

The tone stays the same, well for the most part as you lose some punch from the full power.
If you roll back your guitar volume you lose the tone so keep it full on.

I also think if you can handle a decent amount of volume, say you have to raise your voice over the music to be heard then a 50 watt amp is ok.
A 20 wall amp is only a bit over 3db louder than a 20 watter.

If you can get a bigger amp to play low then it would be perfect, think of it this way.
Low watt is like a 4 cylinder car, to get the power you have to turn it up, the opposite is true with a bigger amp. Its like an 8 cylinder with lots of torque, power down low without having to rev it. So on a small amp at a louder volume a palm mute sounds thin, a larger amp at the same volume the palm mute sounds fat and powerful enough to move your pants!
This also translates to a nice lead tone.

My Jet City 20 watt head playing at the same volume as my 6505 was night and day different, the JC sounded good but the 6505 was damn!


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## Stiman (Oct 17, 2010)

At what volume are you making that comparison of the JCA20 and the 6505? If it's around the talking loud sort of volume, then that makes things really interesting for me.

Maybe the DSL40 was just ONE bad experience. Perhaps I should just go to the guitar stores and try all the tube amps at the volume I would play them at home, and see what happens.


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## Andy (Sep 23, 2007)

Believe me, you don't want a DSL401 -- they need a *lot* of modification to be reliable amps. A DSL50 head, however, is much more solid, and sounds great. Personally, I prefer the DSL50 to the 6505, but they're both excellent amps, very common both as recording and touring amps.

I also agree with Bevo, low watt amps aren't necessarily your only option. A 50 or 100 watt amp can have great tone and tons of balls at low volume.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

not sure if it matches the sound of the artists you mentioned, but my valve junior does only one thing- and thats best described by "singing lead tones".
it has been extensively modified though- stock tubes and speaker, but a bunch of resistor and cap swaps.
im going to start sounding like a broken record soon, but a rangemaster style boost gives me that sound through just about any amp.
im not familiar with anything other than the germanium treble boosters- theyll do it for sure, but there may be others im not aware of thatll work.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

Stiman said:


> Perhaps I should just go to the guitar stores and try all the tube amps at the volume I would play them at home, and see what happens.


It definitely can't hurt the process if you have the time. It's probably the best idea.
It's weird; guitar shops don't seem to mind you playing the amps at lower volumes.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

My 6505 had better tone at low volume than my JCA20, by low volume i mean you can hear your strings slighlty rattling as you play above the sound from your cab.
Peaveys are know for this, Mesa's and Marshalls not so much.

Head up to Cosmo in Richmond hill and if they don't have a 6505 in the sound room get them to put one in, a 5150 will also work.
Play as low as you can and form your own opinion.

Can't hurt and its FREE!!!


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## Stiman (Oct 17, 2010)

You're saying the 6505 is better at low volumes eh.. that 6505+ 1X12 sells for pretty cheap, I think I will go and give it a try.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Sorry, I thought you were in Toronto.

Check out the reviews, there was one here as well.
Give it a try before you buy just so you know.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

I'm not really familiar with Patrucci's tone (or how to spell his name) but I don't think the Valve Jr. is really designed to get you the high gain sound. In theory, it is supposed to be easier to get power tube overdrive with a low watt amp, but gain on the front end is a BIG part of Santana/ Gov't Mule singing lead type tones, so I assume Patrucci too. Ganging together a boost and a couple of overdrive pedals will probably get you close.


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## Stiman (Oct 17, 2010)

Yeah I mean, that was the basis for starting this in the first place. I think I need to look at amps that are design for the higher gain.

I really do love the valve jr, and I just bought an eminence wizard speaker today off of a guy on this board. I'm really looking forward to replacing the celestion seventy 80 speaker. I'm not the type to "collect" gear really, but I understand that no amp can do it all.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Stiman, i just noticed you are in Winterpeg. Try to find a Garnet Pro, Session Man or BTO, you won't be sorry. I play through a Garnet Stencil amp called a Mann. It rocks.


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

Stiman said:


> I'm really considering getting one of these, but I'm worried about paying $1500 (+/-) for playing at home at low volumes.
> 
> My question is, would it be possible to get these tones with a Blackstar HT-5 or Ht20, JCA20h, Marshall Class5, or any other 5-20 watts tube amp?


I just went through three low-watt amps before settling on the Mesa Trans-Atlantic. The other two, including the Marshall Class 5 you mention, were just not what I was looking for. Nice sounding amp, but not really my sound (though I love the heavier Marshall sounds). The TA has an awesome sound, without any pedals needed. Great cleans, crunch, and heavy stuff. I'm not really a pedal person, so it's a great setup for me.


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## Stiman (Oct 17, 2010)

***UPDATE***

Just got the Eminence The Wizard speaker in my cab and it is a huge improvement! I can really tell that with the right pedal, I'll be able to get pretty close to the tone I'm looking for.
I'm really surprised how much that seventy 80 speaker was holding me back!


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## funfun (Nov 6, 2010)

Definitely. I have a Fender Princeton that achieves singing lead tones on the verge of feedback at low volumes.
All you need is a fairly high gain overdrive or distortion pedal with a compressor pedal in front of it. I use a BB Plus pedal made by Exotic that can do that with my Keeley four knob compressor in front of it. Try it out.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Stiman said:


> ***UPDATE***
> 
> Just got the Eminence The Wizard speaker in my cab and it is a huge improvement! I can really tell that with the right pedal, I'll be able to get pretty close to the tone I'm looking for.
> I'm really surprised how much that seventy 80 speaker was holding me back!


Definitely. I had one of those in a Traynor amp and it was really uninspiring.


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## krelk (Nov 6, 2010)

Congrats on the speaker purchase!

I am a definite fan of using different speakers for tonal differences, maybe that's why I like heads more than combos sometimes....9kkhhd

I think you might want to try a compressor with your set-up...

Find a decent tone from your present rig and then make it sustain with a compressor.....If that's not enough, then try a overdrive/distortion with the compressor...

The compressor will change your drive characteristics depending how much you compress/sustain it but you can remedy that by changing eq, amount of drive, etc,....

The compressor can make those tones sustain as long as you want and it won't be so dependent on pinning your amp.

An easy option would be to rent a line 6 pod from L&M for a month (ends up being cheaper than weekly) and experiment with the compressors and distortions....just an option.....I'm not trying to push the vendor or the product, I just like having lots of options!

kkjuw


I think your tone is well within your reach without having to shell out major $$$$$$$$$$

Cheers & Good Luck!!


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