# Should Athiests work on Christmas Day?



## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

..........:wink:


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## Canman (Oct 21, 2007)

Why? If they dont have to.


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## Telenator (Aug 9, 2007)

If it falls on their regular shift schedule and it's necessary to have them at work than yes, otherwise it's a stat holiday for everyone in Canada regardless of religious affiliation.


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

No, atheists are discriminated against enough as it is.


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## Guest (Dec 23, 2007)

The worst are the pagan atheists!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I'd be happy to work on Christmas day as long as I get another day off at my discretion. Time off in December is a waste of time off IMO.


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## stratovani (Jul 1, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I'd be happy to work on Christmas day as long as I get another day off at my discretion. Time off in December is a waste of time off IMO.


For double-time-and-a-half, of course!:smile:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

stratovani said:


> For double-time-and-a-half, of course!:smile:


I'm on salary. 

There's no "double time and a half" for me.

I'm just saying Dec 25 is not significant to me. I'd be happier NOT being obliged to take that particular day. I'd rather have Thanksgiving week off.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

NB-SK said:


> No, atheists are discriminated against enough as it is.



Bingo!!! 

Christmas has become much more than Christian holiday in this country. It is also a secular statutory holiday. It has become part of mainstream secular culture in this country. You don't have to be a Christian to celebrate it. Pagan, heathen, polytheist, agnostic or whatever.


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Merry Chris.. I mean..Happy Hanu..ummm..Happy Holidays y'all! :food-smiley-004:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I think much (too much) is made of the perceived "offence" of wishing people a Merry Christmas.

I don't tend to say such things, but I sure as hell am not offended by it and I have not met anyone who is. Someone wants to wish me an auspicious and prosperous Diwali, I say thanks. They want to wish me a Merry Christmas, again, thanks. Same goes for any religious holiday. All are equal in my opinion. How can you be offended by that? I suspect MOST non Christians would agree.

I say Happy Holidays because I wish ALL of you to enjoy the time with your families, not because Christian holidays offend me.

:food-smiley-004:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

jroberts said:


> I've never actually met someone offended by the word "Christmas" or who wants to get rid of the word. I'm sure there are people like that out there, but I never really come across it.
> 
> What I *do* come across on pretty much a daily basis are people complaining about people who are offended by the word. I know many, many people who complain about the "war on Christmas" and go on about how terrible it is and how they *refuse* to say "Happy Holidays" and the like.
> 
> That whole persecution complex a lot of people seem to have this time of year is what gets *really* tiring.


That's my impression also. It's a tempest in a teacup. That's the society we live in.


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

When I was a teacher we used to get a memo every Christmas season telling us how offensive the word Christmas was to other religions and we were forbidden to us that word. So I suspect the "war on Christmas" is perpetuated by a very small group of people determined to ensure Political Correctness as a lifestyle choice for the rest of us. Like everyone here I have never met anyone offended by Christmas. I work with people of many different faiths and they always wish me a Merry Christmas. If there is a war, I would like to see it as a war against Political Correctness, which is far more damaging than most people would guess IMO.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

FenderMan said:


> When I was a teacher we used to get a memo every Christmas season telling us how offensive the word Christmas was to other religions and we were forbidden to us that word. So I suspect the "war on Christmas" is perpetuated by a very small group of people determined to ensure Political Correctness as a lifestyle choice for the rest of us. Like everyone here I have never met anyone offended by Christmas. I work with people of many different faiths and they always wish me a Merry Christmas. If there is a war, I would like to see it as a war against Political Correctness, which is far more damaging than most people would guess IMO.



I think if Christmas was still a religious holiday as it was originally intended and as such, was a personal family time, far less would be made of anti-christmas attitudes. I think much of the frustration and weariness many of us feel is because of the merchant related holiday Christmas has become, and let's face it, that's really what it's all about now.

I for one am looking forward to a time when this has receded to something celebrated in a more private way.

As for schools I am VERY sick of my children who attend public schools, hearing about their teachers religious beliefs and being scolded or ridiculed when they reply that they don't believe in god. It's not my imagination. I talk to my kids. The reason many of us are so vocal about our non religious opinions is because we are bombarded on a daily basis by the religious views of those who still believe and who seem desperate for others to believe as well. This is not acceptable in schools. This is not anti-christian. It's just that in our society no other religion tends to try to brainwash my kids.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2007)

"as it was originally intended"
It's 'original' intention was a way to pass the long winter nights.... Way before the X-tians got their grubby mitts on it... it had very little to do with 'religion'

"This is not acceptable in schools."
It isn't acceptable anywhere out side of a church. As George Carlin said, "Thou shalt keep they religion to thyself!"

I think it was part of him taking apart The 10 Commandments (The myth, not the movie)


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

FenderMan said:


> When I was a teacher we used to get a memo every Christmas season telling us how offensive the word Christmas was to other religions and we were forbidden to us that word. So I suspect the "war on Christmas" is perpetuated by a very small group of people determined to ensure Political Correctness as a lifestyle choice for the rest of us. Like everyone here I have never met anyone offended by Christmas. I work with people of many different faiths and they always wish me a Merry Christmas. If there is a war, I would like to see it as a war against Political Correctness, which is far more damaging than most people would guess IMO.


Well said. I have always maintained that I will not conform to PC. I'll engage in the debate whenever I happen to offend...And I always win. As for Xmas, for me it's a time to slow down and reflect and more importantly, spend quality time with those I love. Happy holidays to all!!


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I think if Christmas was still a religious holiday as it was originally intended and as such, was a personal family time, far less would be made of anti-christmas attitudes. I think much of the frustration and weariness many of us feel is because of the merchant related holiday Christmas has become, and let's face it, that's really what it's all about now.


I certainly agree with this part, I don't think it matters what beliefs you have, Christmas has been elevated to an impossible level of hype in order to induce the most profit and that tires everyone out. This is why Christmas was banned in the mid 1700's in Britain for a 100 years. It wasn't anti-Christian sentiment, though it is often portrayed that way by some factions, actually British parliament was genuinely concerned that people had lost sight of Christmas, were over spending (debtor's prison confinement was at a record high) and drunkenness had gotten out of hand. You should look this up, it is an interesting read.



Milkman said:


> I for one am looking forward to a time when this has receded to something celebrated in a more private way.


Also very good thought, it should really be about Family in my mind but that doesn't mean it has to be that for everyone else. I am finally starting to win the war of attrition with the family and now the focus is becoming more on family and less on extravagance. Let's face it, it can be overwhelmingly expensive if you let..but I rant :smile:



Milkman said:


> As for schools I am VERY sick of my children who attend public schools, hearing about their teachers religious beliefs and being scolded or ridiculed when they reply that they don't believe in god. It's not my imagination. I talk to my kids. The reason many of us are so vocal about our non religious opinions is because we are bombarded on a daily basis by the religious views of those who still believe and who seem desperate for others to believe as well. This is not acceptable in schools. This is not anti-christian. It's just that in our society no other religion tends to try to brainwash my kids.


This true in so many ways, sadly there are extremists in every religion and all they do is give their faith a visible black eye. There are many appropriate ways to evangelize and the schools are not the appropriate battle ground, particularly in Canada where we are guaranteed freedom of religion (which includes Atheism). 

Having been an insider to the public system(did I mention I much prefer being a programmer now for these reasons?) you do have a battle waging in some schools between those that are firmly Politically Correct and the rest of the staff. The result is an intense backlash from the rest that results in inappropriate behaviours on both sides (such as the brain-washing referenced above). In the end the student suffers, when the school experience should be about exposure to many ideas, open mindedness and learning to intelligently question and analyze a point of view all of which facilitates stronger learning experiences. Political Correctness of any kind is proven to inhibit learning. So between that and the forcing of beliefs on students you have a right to be concerned with this, it isn't helping the young. Talk about impeding our investment in our future.

What bothers me, is that the principal actually has a lot to do with this as schools where the principal doesn't tolerate this behaviour have less problems. In some ways it is a leadership issue. Unfortunately, if you have a very political principal, you get these types of issues because they can't afford to "offend" anyone.

My son is a self-confirmed atheist but I don't give him a hard time for it. Besides it would be hypocritical for me to do so because I used to be one as well. Rather I hope he learns from what I do and what he sees me do. If he only learns the values I still have done my job. Besides it is much easier to dialog if you show respect for both sides. He asks some very good and sometimes hard questions and I view them as a teaching/learning opportunity and try to focus my answers on values.

Stratin2traynor: Very well put!

Clinton: You are referring to the Sun worship of the Romans and you are right, Constantine picked this date as a way of supplanting that worship when he endorsed Christianity. The world is interesting that way. 

Sorry for going on so much here but these issues of non-tolerance really go against my core values. I much prefer a world where we are free of intolerance and can practice our faiths (whatever that may be) openly without being in fear of criticism or retribution.

:food-smiley-004:


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2007)

"You are referring to the Sun worship of the Romans"
Earlier.... They didn't invent the idea... 

"these issues of non-tolerance really go against my core values"
Except that faith is one of the leading causes of intolerance.... It sets up a "We're The Chosen People & Therefore Better Than You" bs mentality..... 

So, if you want to abolish intolerance, start by putting childish toys like faith and religion away for good.


"fear of criticism or retribution"
Nothing aught be exempt from criticism... If you can't stand to have it criticized, then you're probably taking it way too seriously....


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

ClintonHammond said:


> "You are referring to the Sun worship of the Romans"
> Earlier.... They didn't invent the idea...


I was just directly referring to the Christian component. I was aware that it went earlier. Sun worship understandably shows up in many early belief systems. I am not even sure that we could trace the exact being of this belief as it so ancient.



ClintonHammond said:


> "these issues of non-tolerance really go against my core values"
> Except that faith is one of the leading causes of intolerance.... It sets up a "We're The Chosen People & Therefore Better Than You" bs mentality.....


Something I hate in all religions but I try to look past that and focus on the more important stuff. Even without these "toys", as you phrase it, mentality will always exist, it is a part of the human tribal nature. We abolish religion and it will manifest itself in other ways. An example would be the "Old Boys Clubs". Unfortunately elitism is parted of the human experience.



ClintonHammond said:


> So, if you want to abolish intolerance, start by putting childish toys like faith and religion away for good.
> 
> 
> "fear of criticism or retribution"
> Nothing aught be exempt from criticism... If you can't stand to have it criticized, then you're probably taking it way too seriously....


I should point out that your cynicism is just as intolerant when focused against faith. :smile: These things always cut two ways.

It is always good to remember that any institution (religious or otherwise) that involves humans will be flawed. You are right that criticism is healthy, I was referring to the aspect which is found in oppression. Maybe I should have stated that more clearly. Thanks for pointing that out.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2007)

Who decides what is human nature if not humans? If (WHEN) we decide to not LET it be a part of our nature, it won't take much work to MAKE it not part of our nature....


"your cynicism is just as intolerant when focused against faith"
There is nothing wrong with being intolerant of intolerance....


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

ClintonHammond said:


> Who decides what is human nature if not humans? If (WHEN) we decide to not LET it be a part of our nature, it won't take much work to MAKE it not part of our nature....


Recent studies show that it takes 21 generations to make that kind of a change. If only it were so easy.



ClintonHammond said:


> "your cynicism is just as intolerant when focused against faith"
> There is nothing wrong with being intolerant of intolerance....


What you say now makes sense, they original phrasing was less optimal.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2007)

"Recent studies show"
Meaningless unless sourced.... but... 

"it takes 21 generations to make that kind of a change"
A blink of the eye in the hundreds of thousands of years of human evolution...


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

All well and nice and everything, but what about atheists working on Christmas Day. What about non Wickens working on Summer and Winter Solstices, and the Equinoxes? Me? I take a legislated paid holiday anytime.


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

Robert1950 said:


> All well and nice and everything, but what about atheists working on Christmas Day. What about non Wickens working on Summer and Winter Solstices, and the Equinoxes? Me? I take a legislated paid holiday anytime.


I'm cool with all that. I don't think anyone should have to work a faith holiday,there are enough people around of varying faiths to cover it over for those that take their faith's holidays.


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## Guest (Dec 24, 2007)

"what about atheists working on Christmas Day"
I'll be @ work at midnight tonight, when it becomes X-mas Day.....


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

FenderMan said:


> I certainly agree with this part, I don't think it matters what beliefs you have, Christmas has been elevated to an impossible level of hype in order to induce the most profit and that tires everyone out. This is why Christmas was banned in the mid 1700's in Britain for a 100 years. It wasn't anti-Christian sentiment, though it is often portrayed that way by some factions, actually British parliament was genuinely concerned that people had lost sight of Christmas, were over spending (debtor's prison confinement was at a record high) and drunkenness had gotten out of hand. You should look this up, it is an interesting read.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My compliments for your restraint. My opinions typically raise the ire of many religious folk. 

FYI, the principal of the elementary school my kids attended is very religious and tolerates far too much in the way of faith biased information and comments from the teachers.

Faith belongs at home, in church and in the hearts and minds of those who believe. Evangalizing is much like telephone or door to door solicitation. It is an unwanted invasion of my privacy.

While I don't believe in god I try to keep an open mind on the subject, particularly in light of some very intelligent people whom I know to be believers, people whom I consider to be smarter than I am.

However, I do not try to convince others to disbelieve and all I want is the same in return for me and my family.

All in due time I suppose.:food-smiley-004:


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## sneakypete (Feb 2, 2006)

I never ask folks what denomination they are...none of my business. I only ask that people to not push their views on me. Religion is fascinating...praise the lord and pass the ammunition.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

Instead of complaining about being forced to take a day off for a Christian holiday, why don't you go do something useful instead of knocking us Christians and donate some of your time at a food bank or other charitable organizations?


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2007)

"why don't you go do something useful instead of knocking us Christians and donate some of your time at a food bank or other charitable organizations?"
Who says I can't do both?  

"I'm tired of Christians/Jews/Muslims assuming that athiests have no compassion or kindness or morality simply because we choose to follow reason instead of faith."
They have to assume that, because they are so afraid of what we atheists represent. Life without meaningless fear... without baseless beliefs... Our heads on our shoulders instead of in the clouds....

"I have yet to condemn a Christian"
Oh, but they make it soooo easy to do!! LOL 

In the end, do what you want. But make sure you're not hurting anyone with what you're doing. (Teaching children that the world is only a few thousand years old and that some big man in the sky cares what they do with their sex organs is tantamount to abuse! I oppose child abuse... don't you? ,-P )


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> Instead of complaining about being forced to take a day off for a Christian holiday, why don't you go do something useful instead of knocking us Christians and donate some of your time at a food bank or other charitable organizations?


????

Are _you_ "doing something useful today"?

Nobody's knocking anyone. Enjoy your christmas.


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## Guest (Dec 25, 2007)

" Are _you_ "doing something useful today"?"
I donno about anyone else, but I'm doing my bit to clear away the worlds excess of food and drink!


,-)


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

Milkman said:


> ????
> 
> Are _you_ "doing something useful today"?


Yup!



ClintonHammond said:


> Who says I can't do both?


Nobody!



Paul said:


> Who said that athiests or secular humanists don't do this all year long???? Why would selfless service to humanity be more meaningful on Dec. 25th as opposed to May 13th?


You are right, we should should be giving all year long. Maybe we should also stop celebrating Thanksgiving on a specific day because we should be thankful all year long. Screw Rememberance day as well, because we should honour our soldiers everyday. 

Screw the July 1st long weekend.......we should have a long weekend every week! :banana:


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

My birthday is May 13th. I'd go for statutory holiday on that day. :smilie_flagge17:


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

Milkman said:


> While I don't believe in god I try to keep an open mind on the subject, particularly in light of some very intelligent people whom I know to be believers, people whom I consider to be smarter than I am.
> 
> However, I do not try to convince others to disbelieve and all I want is the same in return for me and my family.


A reasonable request IMO. Besides this attitude can lead to mutual understanding, growth and in true Canadian spirit, generally good conversation :smile: I have enjoyed this thread and everyone should be commended for their conduct in expressing their opinions. Everyone has their own path to follow and should be respected for such. 

Merry Christmas by the way. Hope you all had a good day with friends and family :food-smiley-004:


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

Paul said:


> I do question people of faith to try and understand how they have made that leap of faith to live their life in the service of a supernatural being, in the absence of all evidence or reason. (Yes, that is essentially the definition of faith.) There is a difference between questioning and passing judgment. I have yet to condemn a Christian, but there over 1 billion Christians who feel obliged to condemn/threaten me.


It is good to question. It is an excellent path for understanding and growth, but I doubt you are persecuted by that many Christians. Unfortunately, _as in any other religion_, there are a few vocal ones that seem to be over zealous in their approach to non-believers. Trust me, that kept me away from the church for many, many years. I tend to hang more with the crowd that does the walk and less of the talk for that very reason. 



Paul said:


> I'm tired of Christians/Jews/Muslims assuming that athiests have no compassion or kindness or morality simply because we choose to follow reason instead of faith.


This statement reminds me in a sense of the story of the Good Samaritan (gentile that was not considered worthy or spiritually "clean" by first century Jews) who was elevated in a teaching Jesus passed onto the disciples. The Samaritan's compassion to someone who was circumstantially beyond the help of the Jews of the time because according to Mosiac law a person beaten almost to death would make a helper spiritually unclean so the passers who were concerned with following the letter of Mosiac law regarding spiritual cleanliness rather than the spirit of that law missed entirely the point of compassion and the greater good. To bring it back to point, a person outside of the main stream institution of the times showed greater compassion than those professing to practice a compassionate religion. 

One should never mistake compassion and generosity with faith. Certainly one's faith, and I am sure most main-stream faiths do this, can dictate that you should be generous and compassionate but it is also a personal virtue and in my experience more a matter of personal values than almost anything else. I would hold someone in higher regard if they gave from their heart than someone who gave for the sake of appearance.

:food-smiley-004:


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

ne1roc said:


> You are right, we should should be giving all year long. Maybe we should also stop celebrating Thanksgiving on a specific day because we should be thankful all year long. Screw Rememberance day as well, because we should honour our soldiers everyday.
> 
> Screw the July 1st long weekend.......we should have a long weekend every week! :banana:


All of this makes sense to me :rockon:


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

ClintonHammond said:


> (Teaching children that the world is only a few thousand years old and that some big man in the sky cares what they do with their sex organs is tantamount to abuse! I oppose child abuse... don't you? ,-P )


Of course any reasonable person does oppose child abuse. (I did see the smilie so go with me on this one :smile: )

Interesting over simplification of a belief. This is proof that the proponents of Intelligent Design have done more to hurt Christianity than help it. Most theologians seem to agree that Genesis is a metaphor (I am thinking of Borg and Sponge to name just a couple). I know from reading the Vatican web site that the Catholic church also sees it this way which is interesting. They actually have a press release on their site stating the the findings of science do not conflict with the teachings of the Bible. Disregarding science indiscriminately is not very helpful to any meaningful discussion of faith, which is what many ID followers have done IMO. Leads me back to an older point, education should be an open affair, which is what I see Clinton really saying.

In any case all, I have gone on quite a bit in this thread so I apologize if I have bored you. I just feel both sides of the question should be addressed. I must admit that Clinton's thoughts in particular do provide a basis of interesting discussion for me, even when he baits the conversation :wink: If you make it out my way I would be pleased to buy you a beer :food-smiley-015: That pretty much goes for anyone in this thread, just not all at once, in which case it's dutch. :smile:

Have a good holiday!


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

> In the end, do what you want. But make sure you're not hurting anyone with what you're doing. (Teaching children that the world is only a few thousand years old and that some big man in the sky cares what they do with their sex organs is tantamount to abuse! I oppose child abuse... don't you? ,-P )


bravo clinton! you are having the nail by its head, and you are hitting it!
one of the most intelligent and insightful things ive seen anybody say in a while.

as an evolutionist who has made pretty thorough studies of the bibles contents, im always blown away by my christian friends lack of knowledge of the scriptures, and the way they just shrug off scientific arguments with condescending smiles and vague mutterings of faith-
thats pure indoctrination.


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2007)

*Looking to trade my SOUL for a Wii*

So this ad states.
I got a chuckle out of it.


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2007)

"education should be an open affair"
Not too open... we don't teach that the world MIGHT be flat... or that the moon MIGHT be made of green cheese... I see no reason to teach so called I.D. or any other mythology-masquerading-as-science... Especially not just because some people 'believe' it.... Some people BELIEVE we never landed on the moon... Is their paranoid raving to be given equal time and consideration as all other discussions of interplanetary exploration?!?!? Abso-FN-lootly not!

Somewhere there's a good quote about having an open mind, but not so open that your logic and reason escapes, but I can't put my finger on it.... Suffice to say we all know that religion and faith wither under the weight of logic and reason.

"They actually have a press release on their site stating the the findings of science do not conflict with the teachings of the Bible."
All that is, is a lame attempt to avoid criticism, and to try to sponge credibility off science... Neither one works... One is based on logic and reason.. the other is superstition and mythology....


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

ClintonHammond said:


> "education should be an open affair"
> Not too open... we don't teach that the world MIGHT be flat... or that the moon MIGHT be made of green cheese... I see no reason to teach so called I.D. or any other mythology-masquerading-as-science... Especially not just because some people 'believe' it.... Some people BELIEVE we never landed on the moon... Is their paranoid raving to be given equal time and consideration as all other discussions of interplanetary exploration?!?!? Abso-FN-lootly not!


I don't think ID should ever be taught in school. Fraser pretty much nails it when he says that many who put forward these ideas never study the scriptures. Another good argument to support Fraser's observation is where people are convinced that by accepting Jesus they can continue to sin and will remain saved. I have had a number of people tell me that is part of the scripture. It isn't. It is just justification for bad behaviour. I really wish more people would read the Bible before using it as an excuse.



ClintonHammond said:


> Somewhere there's a good quote about having an open mind, but not so open that your logic and reason escapes, but I can't put my finger on it.... Suffice to say we all know that religion and faith wither under the weight of logic and reason.


I seem to remember a quote along those lines and I would agree with you on the first part. Faith isn't necessarily about logic and reason (both are excellent traits to have and I have met many people with strong faith who rely on these traits to weigh what is being taught to them) so you can't necessarily argue the two. Faith tends to be experiential in many ways and not usually explainable, but rather "knowable". It is said that one can experience God without being able to explain Him. The same can be said for nature and the greater Universe. After all it is really believing in that which can't be proven.

But, definitely, the whole ID thing is a lot of BS IMO. Like I said earlier Genesis, to me at least, is a metaphor for creation and experiencing God written from a more ancient tradition's perspective.


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2007)

"I don't think ID should ever be taught in school."
ID shouldn't be taught anywhere... anymore than one aught to ever teach Holocaust Denial. It's an affront to human intelligence.


"It is said that one can experience God without being able to explain Him."
Schizophrenics say the same thing about their delusions too.... I put "God" on the same level as The Radio Man the dude in the home across the street claims to converse with through the fillings in his teeth.

There's some very interesting science that so far appears to link what goes on with a so-called "Religious Experience" with activity in the same brain structures that light up when someone is undergoing a Grand Mal [SIZE=-1]seizure[/SIZE]... 

There's nothing concrete yet, but I think it would make the world a very interesting place if Religion or Faith were ever 'tagged' as mental disorders.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

the desire to belong to something is not a mental illness, its just a human trait. some folks need to cling to something intangible, something better and larger then themselves- we acquired that trait by following and clinging to the smartest and most intelligent members of our human community, over thousands of years- its a survival reflex in any familial mammal society, follow the leader. its still seen today. thats why all the little girls are wearing fishing tackle in theyre faces.


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2007)

"the desire to belong to something"
Not the "Religious Experience" I was talking about at all... 

Read some of the work by V. S. Ramachandran...


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

ClintonHammond said:


> "I don't think ID should ever be taught in school."
> ID shouldn't be taught anywhere... anymore than one aught to ever teach Holocaust Denial. It's an affront to human intelligence.


We are on the same page. I think I have mentioned a few times that the creation story is a metaphor in most circles. It is only a small but powerful group that takes it as a literal teaching and quite interestingly that group is mostly relegated to the US. 




ClintonHammond said:


> There's some very interesting science that so far appears to link what goes on with a so-called "Religious Experience" with activity in the same brain structures that light up when someone is undergoing a Grand Mal [SIZE=-1]seizure[/SIZE]...
> 
> There's nothing concrete yet, but I think it would make the world a very interesting place if Religion or Faith were ever 'tagged' as mental disorders.


I don't think they would qualify as illnesses any more than extreme cynicism would. As far as the science you are referring to there are a number of things that seem to affect the same area of the brain and all of them are experiential. As far as what I have read on the Internet and seen on TV there are only a few things that light up those areas of the brain and are considered harmful, such as the seizures you mention. 

If you look at it objectively there has been much good done in the name of religion and there has been much evil done in the name of religion. The same can be said for non-belief or any other form of polarized belief. The reason this is equally true is because people are involved and people are flawed.

Here is a link to that describes the work Ramachandran  is doing. It is a PDF. It is a review of his book Phantoms in the Brain.

Other articles of interest: PBS Religion and the Brain
Cognitive Liberty


Here is a quote from the second article:
"For all the tentative successes that scientists are scoring in their search for the biological bases of
religious, spiritual and mystical experience, one mystery will surely lie forever beyond their grasp. They may trace a sense of transcendence to this bulge in our gray matter. 

And they may trace a feeling of the divine to that one. But it is likely that they will never resolve the greatest question of all-namely, whether our brain wiring creates God, or whether God created our brain wiring. Which you believe is, in the end, a matter of faith."

We could argue this forever and will never come to a consensus. You pretty much have to go with your experiences. Mine favour God.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

FenderMan said:


> We could argue this forever and will never come to a consensus. You pretty much have to go with your experiences. Mine favour God.



I think atheists tend to go with what can be proven as opposed to with our experiences. Just because I haven't experienced weightlessness doesn't mean I don't think it exists in space.

Again I have to compliment you on your manner of expressing your beliefs. You seem far less condescending and psuedo-omnicient(is that a word?) than many religious people I've met.

I would only find fault with one small word, a single letter in fact that I see missing in the statement I clipped above.


I would have liked to see "Mine favour "A" god".


After all, there are many.


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Again I have to compliment you on your manner of expressing your beliefs. You seem far less condescending and psuedo-omnicient(is that a word?) than many religious people I've met.


Thanks, I do try hard not to put my beliefs on others, I think that is a personal path each of us must tread. 

Well I am off to the skate shop, my son got some gift certificates and wants a new snow board


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## Guest (Dec 27, 2007)

"If you look at it objectively"
Impossible assertion... There's no such thing as a human being objective. We can only ever be subjective, as the sum of our experiences and perceptions.

"The same can be said for non-belief"
What atheists ever started a war... or a crusade? or a jihad? Or condones and indeed glorifies indoctrinating and/or mutilating children... 

"Which you believe is, in the end, a matter of faith."
There is nothing more immaterial than "faith" and "belief". One doesn't need to have faith in, or believe in, say, gravity.


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

ClintonHammond said:


> The same can be said for non-belief"
> What atheists ever started a war... or a crusade? or a jihad? Or condones and indeed glorifies indoctrinating and/or mutilating children...


There are many such cases in history of non-believers starting wars. Many wars have been started over land-claims, resources and for the simple sake of aggression not just because of religion. People have fought and will fight for a multitude of reasons, including belief (as per the recent wave of terror attacks). War is rarely if ever started for good reasons.


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Wow! I'm glad this topic has aroused so much feeling from everyone.
If you have no belief in a higher power, you walk around as empty & hollow as an old beer bottle.
If you believe ..you often feel tormented & challenged by the suffering you see in others or on the nightly news.
I'm sure on my deathbed I will be praying for 
god's welcome..as I do for his love & forgiveness now.
Peace on earth would be a fine start for humanity..wouldn't it?
We all have much to learn & do.

Merry Christmas to all. :smile:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

danbo said:


> Wow! I'm glad this topic has aroused so much feeling from everyone.
> If you have no belief in a higher power, you walk around as empty & hollow as an old beer bottle.
> Merry Christmas to all. :smile:



Wow, that's not too derogetory, LOL.

On the other hand one might say if you believe in a higher power you're full of _something_.

What if we're right and you're wrong?

See, that's where the friendly debate always breaks down. I'm quite willing to admit that those who believe in a god could possibly be right. Sadly the nature of faith or at least the faiths so commonly practised in North America, prevents followers from making the same concession.


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

YEP..but that's why ya gotta stick to your own gun's until totally swayed by a new option. :food-smiley-004:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

danbo said:


> YEP..but that's why ya gotta stick to your own gun's until totally swayed by a new option. :food-smiley-004:


Sticking to ones guns and totally denying the POSSIBILITY that an opposing point of view is true are not the same.

I'm not sticking to any guns.

Prove god exists and I'll fall to my knees now. _That's_ an open mind. 


I surely would NOT make a statement implying that those who believe in a god are deluded, crazy or "empty inside".


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

> If you have no belief in a higher power, you walk around as empty & hollow as an old beer bottle.


lol- say what? did they teach you this in the recruitment camps?


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Brothers & sisters..I don't know where to begin to prove the existance of God or how I came to my beliefs. I'm a 50 year old recovered drug/alcohol abuser with many a sad tale. I came from a broken/abusive home..I suffer from depression & am medicated for Bi-polar disorder..yet after it's all said & done . I've found out for myself through many others that have helped me heal..that you must never give up, enjoy your life & trust God for a better way of life.
Grieve your losses, forgive others & yourself for any wrong doings & crimes & sins. Help others in need & pray for the welfare of others..
I could type volumes of my experiences good & bad..but I'm not done yet! :banana: 
You want to meet God, go get hooked on crack for awhile..or go volunteer at some foreign disaster zone..or go paddle a canoe alone on a secluded lake or..


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

danbo said:


> Brothers & sisters..I don't know where to begin to prove the existance of God or how I came to my beliefs. I'm a 50 year old recovered drug/alcohol abuser with many a sad tale. I came from a broken/abusive home..I suffer from depression & am medicated for Bi-polar disorder..yet after it's all said & done . I've found out for myself through many others that have helped me heal..that you must never give up, enjoy your life & trust God for a better way of life.
> Grieve your losses, forgive others & yourself for any wrong doings & crimes & sins. Help others in need & pray for the welfare of others..
> I could type volumes of my experiences good & bad..but I'm not done yet! :banana:
> You want to meet God, go get hooked on crack for awhile..or go volunteer at some foreign disaster zone..or go paddle a canoe alone on a secluded lake or..


Well clearly religion filled a much needed void in your life, and that's great. It's very common for those in dire straits to "find god" and I'd say it does people in your situation a lot of good. It's also commonplace for convicted criminals to have such an "awakening", particularly those on death row.

I wish it was that easy for me (or that difficult I suppose). I would love nothing better than to gove my life and all the responsibility that goes with it to a higher power. Seems like it would be much less stressful than dealing with it myself, and I honestly don't mean that to sound like a shot.

Good for you. Take strength in your faith, but understand that not everybody can abandon reason and logic. Maybe it's us who are clinging to something, LOL.

And for the record, I'm not empty at all, in fact I often feel too full.


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

I only abandoned reason & logic when I was high.
Now my family,friends & hobbies fill my mind & heart with joy, peace & love.
I was empty when I had turned my back to God...I should not have made the generalized statement that offended you, friend.. :food-smiley-004:

P.S. that's root beer in my mug! lol!!


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## bluecoyote (May 18, 2007)

No, Atheists should be stoned and be allowed to burn in hell for all eternity!! OK maybe not ... Should be a bit more Christian about it!


As a truly devout and practicing atheist I really enjoy Christmas and all of its trappings. It brings family and friends together. It think it is a great time of year!

I do believe in the basic tenets of Christianity such as the basic commandments. However, I truly believe that the organized religion, and the Christian Church foremost, has perverted the message and has created a world of us and them. 

As an atheist, like my parents before me, I am a fairly compassionate person mindful of the plight of others and try to make this a better world through my actions. 

So in answer to the original question the answer is yes, atheists, agnostics, insurance salesmen, advertising executives, reality show contestants, morons, witches, zombies and other wanks should get Christmas off!

Check this out if you are an atheist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rq96ElgrHQE


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Yee haW!! :smilie_flagge17:


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## sneakypete (Feb 2, 2006)

bluecoyote said:


> No, Atheists should be stoned and be allowed to burn in hell for all eternity!! OK maybe not ... Should be a bit more Christian about it!
> 
> 
> As a truly devout and practicing atheist I really enjoy Christmas and all of its trappings. It brings family and friends together. It think it is a great time of year!
> ...


forgot door to door vacuum salesmen.


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## bluecoyote (May 18, 2007)

sneakypete said:


> forgot door to door vacuum salesmen.


You are right! I forgot Telemarketers and Air Canada employees too!


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2007)

"There are many such cases in history of non-believers starting wars."
Such as? Your assertion is pointless without citations.

"War is rarely if ever started for good reasons."
Bullskite... Every war ever started, someone thought it was the PERFECT thing to do!

"I'm sure on my deathbed I will be praying for god's welcome"
Your loss Danbo... But you can take your condescension and cram it with wall nuts... People who don't believe in the supernatural are 'empty' and worthless?!?! To that I can only respond, "Get stuffed, you arrogant FK!"

"Prove god exists and I'll fall to my knees now."
Prove "God" exists, and I'll tell him to suck my knob-that-goes-to-11!

"with many a sad tale"
Boo-frigg'n-hoo... you and everybody else in the world sings a sad sad song.... That's no reason to cash in your reason and logic turn your life over to 'stupidstition'... I don't care what happened to you, I could find a dozen people who had it way worse, for a dime.... 

"religion filled a much needed void in your life"
They call that, "Clutching At Straws" (Which is not just a great Marillion album).. Or like A.A... trading one destructive addiction for another.... 

Not that I really care... you can pump whatever nonsense you want into your brain.... Just make sure you're not inflicting it on anyone else.


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

you miss your meds today? The human mind is a terrible thing to waste.. :wave:


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)




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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)




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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Consider the finch..


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

>>Finally! A judge who is not afraid to make a decision which may not be
>>popular in the eyes of many!!!
>>
>>This is living proof that every moron in the world has a right to petition
>>the court--and tie it up with foolishness.
>>
>>Have you heard about this case? Great answer from the judge!
>>
>>In Florida, an atheist became incensed over the preparation of Easter and
>>Passover holidays. He decided to contact his lawyer about the
>>discrimination inflicted on atheists by the constant celebrations afforded
>>to Christians and Jews with all their holidays while atheists had no
>>holiday to celebrate.
>>
>>The case was brought before a judge. After listening to the long
>>passionate presentation by the lawyer, the Judge banged his gavel and
>>declared, 'Case dismissed!'
>>
>>The lawyer immediately stood and objected to the ruling and said, 'Your
>>honour, how can you possibly dismiss this case? The Christians have
>>Christmas, Easter and many other observances. Jews have Passover, Yom
>>Kippur and Hanukkah...yet my client and all other atheists have no such
>>holiday!'
>>
>>The judge leaned forward in his chair and simply said, 'Obviously your
>>client is too confused to even know about, much less celebrate his own
>>atheists' holiday!'
>>
>>The lawyer pompously said, 'Your Honour, we are unaware of any such
>>holiday for atheists. Just when might that holiday be, your Honour?'
>>
>>The judge said, 'Well it comes every year on exactly the same date---April
>>1st! Since our calendar sets April 1st as 'April Fools Day,' consider that
>>Psalm 14:1 states, 'The fool says in his heart, there is no God.' Thus, in
>>my opinion, if your client says there is no God, then by scripture, he is
>>a fool, and April 1st is his holiday! Now have a good day and get out of
>>my courtroom!!


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

ClintonHammond said:


> "There are many such cases in history of non-believers starting wars."
> Such as? Your assertion is pointless without citations.


Mao and Stalin come to mind. Both thought religion was a waste of time. 



ClintonHammond said:


> "War is rarely if ever started for good reasons."
> Bullskite... Every war ever started, someone thought it was the PERFECT thing to do!


Doesn't mean it was right.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

danbo said:


> >>Finally! A judge who is not afraid to make a decision which may not be
> >>popular in the eyes of many!!!
> >>
> >>This is living proof that every moron in the world has a right to petition
> ...


I think suits like the one discussed here are ridiculous. I also think the judge should be serving coffee at a Starbucks for making comments like he did. I wouldn't sue because Easter and Passover are observed. Those will ultimately die off on their own as the back of the herd finally evolves.

I would raise a pretty major stink over a judge preaching to me from the bench however. He (if this is even real) is a prime example of why religion should be kept in homes and churches and OUT of schools, government offices and especially courtrooms.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

danbo said:


> I only abandoned reason & logic when I was high.
> Now my family,friends & hobbies fill my mind & heart with joy, peace & love.
> I was empty when I had turned my back to God...I should not have made the generalized statement that offended you, friend.. :food-smiley-004:
> 
> P.S. that's root beer in my mug! lol!!



No harm, no foul.

I maintain however that when you place you life in the "hands" of an all powerful being you cannot prove exists, you are abandoning or at least placing in a secondary priority, reason and logic.

As I stated earlier, god often fills a void in people with serious medical, emotional or drug (including alcohol) related issues. Not all of us have that void. 

You'll RARELY find anything other than water or coffee in my mug either.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2007)

"Mao and Stalin come to mind. Both thought religion was a waste of time. "
Again, that's just an assertion... do you have any citations to back that up?

"Doesn't mean it was right."
What's right? To someone it was 'right'... Or do you just mean, it wasn't right to you?

"I think suits like the one discussed here are ridiculous."
I think calling that example a 'suit' is insulting to the law everywhere... It reads more like a bad attempt at a lame joke. 
But I guess it's o.k. to be bigoted enough to call atheists "Fools" in public. I guess that's the freedom that being religious affords "danbo". In my specific case, it's earned him a one-way trip to my ignore list.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> "Mao and Stalin come to mind. Both thought religion was a waste of time. "
> Again, that's just an assertion... do you have any citations to back that up?


Do you have any citations to back up there is no God?


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

bluecoyote said:


> No, Atheists should be stoned and be allowed to burn in hell for all eternity!! OK maybe not ... Should be a bit more Christian about it!
> 
> 
> As a truly devout and practicing atheist I really enjoy Christmas and all of its trappings. It brings family and friends together. It think it is a great time of year!
> ...


Very well said! :food-smiley-004:


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

bluecoyote said:


> As a truly devout and practicing atheist I really enjoy Christmas and all of its trappings. It brings family and friends together. It think it is a great time of year!
> 
> I do believe in the basic tenets of Christianity such as the basic commandments. However, I truly believe that the organized religion, and the Christian Church foremost, has perverted the message and has created a world of us and them.
> 
> ...


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Math can prove that God doesnt exist. However, math cant prove absolute death without life beyond. Therefore using math to prove the existence or the non-existance of God is futile, and wont work. And who was it that said, without math, there is no science. If the evidence were that strong, there wouldnt be a debate, and all the tv dudes wouldnt live in huge mansions........


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

bluecoyote said:


> No, Atheists should be stoned and be allowed to burn in hell for all eternity!! OK maybe not ... Should be a bit more Christian about it!
> 
> 
> As a truly devout and practicing atheist I really enjoy Christmas and all of its trappings. It brings family and friends together. It think it is a great time of year!
> ...



Great post. I particularly enjoyed the YouTube clip. Think I'll dust off Altas Shrugged and curl up with a cup of tea.


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

Paul said:


> Simply put, the "proofs" of God are not proofs. Some are, at best, word games.


As are many of the non-proofs. That is a great segue to you next sentence below...



Paul said:


> It's called "faith" because faith *is* belief without reason or proof. The thing with Christianity is that you _have_ to believe that The Bible is the inerrant word of God. That means everything in The Bible is an absolute literal truth. The problem with that is that there are sooooo many contradictions in the bible itself, (without having to put anything to the test of logic, reason or examination) that believing the bible is the inerrant word of god means having to believe to contradictory ideas, concepts or even facts.
> 
> But if you choose to decide that the bible, or even parts of it, is not meant to be taken literally, then who decides which parts? You? The Pope? The Archbishop of Canterbury? Billy Graham? Oral Roberts? Who????
> 
> The Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John do not agree with each other on basic facts as to the life of Jesus. If the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, shouldn't these four accountings of the life of the son of God, (who is also God himself) at least agree on the basics????



Somewhat of a misconception of the bible being acted upon here. Extreme Fundamentalists often view the Bible as literal. Based on personal experience most Catholics, Anglicans and United Church members don't. They are encouraged to view the Bible with a critical eye. Most theologians, including most of the pastors I have dealt with, see the Bible as experiential, that is divinely inspired but more of a human book describing Isreal's experiences with God. Naturally that leaves lots of room for interpretation but it is what it is, a Holy book of the Human experience with God. As for the Gospels, the synoptic Gospels were written for different audiences at different times and all written several decades after Jesus so the experiences will have changed due to time and geography. The Gospel of John is often viewed as completely metaphorical and more stylized and is often set on its own and is particularly noted for its addressing the Roman audience (and its high style of prose for the time). You can refer to Borg, Wills, Eisenmann for more on this if you like. There is also some discussion on the Vatican web site regarding this but it is a little on the dry side.

I can't answer your other questions other than to say that is between the reader and God and its really a matter of faith.

:food-smiley-004:


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Paul said:


> The science is strong, and testable. What the science isn't is understandable by children.


Science strong? Science is just a way for the human race to interpret nature. Science and religion, no matter how loud they pound their chests are infantile fantasy compared with nature. Science has given us Shake n' Bake but cant even produce the recipe for the formation of a human being. A thing that is only $20 of chemicals and some water. We are 98% Hydrogen, and science is still confused! Strong? Sorry, it aint, its weak and tepid. Think of God as being a TV set. Religious fanatics would be worshipping TV Guide, whicle Science would worship the chemical process taking place in the brain that makes anyone with half a brain want to put a gun in their mouth after enduring a movie like Dumb and Dumber. Both absolutely miss the point, but Im sure that both would beat their chests and say that the other is wrong, and they are right. Nature, or the Universe exists beyond the comprehension of science and religion, yet both make unsubstantiated claims that they understand........


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

Paul said:


> Christians, by definition, already disbelieve in the exisitance of hundreds, if not thousands of supernatural Gods. What evidence is there that all of the other Gods are "false" Gods?, and why doesn't that evidence apply to the Abrahamic God of Christianity?


You make some great points but I like the quoted question the best. Even when you embark on a journey of faith, I personally believe you should question everything. I think it is healthy. I also like that you can equally quote books from both sides of the argument, that shows a solid approach to the question.

One comment I have on the force feeding of the young is that the pablum based approach to religion is why many of us left religion in the first place (I came back but that is another issue). Marcus Borg wrote an excellent book that outlines this issue called Reading the Bible Again for the First Time. He asserts that young people often lose their religion because the pablum version of the teachings no longer make sense when you enter the stages of critical thinking. He's right. It also explains why some people never leave that state and continue with an immature view of the teachings in the Bible. Those people he further asserts can annoy a lot of people, believers and non-believers alike. He comes down really hard on both Fundamentalists and Evangelicals (US style specifically). Once he describes all this he then takes a more reasoned approach to the Bible, some of which I alluded to in my previous post, and shows you how to view the Bible in terms of Critical thinking. It was an excellent book for me as I tend to be more logic minded and like to test everything (yes, I tend to learn the hard way sometimes but when I learn it, I _really learn_ it). 

Just my two cents worth on the feeding of the young but I think it provides some interesting background to your statements.

:food-smiley-004:


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Paul said:


> Both Science and Religion may currently have unsubtantiated claims. The difference is the Science is continually looking for that substantiation.


If they were both in a car race, they would both have baby pedal cars with no steering wheel. Lets just say I wouldnt feel too good betting the farm on either one at this stage. Science and Religion are far from explaining even the most basic things. Science is mostly guess work. I guess, I test, it must be right. Wasnt it Newton who guessed and proclimed himself right when he said sight was acheived because of beams coming out of your eyes and touching objects? Must of been touching the booze too much...........


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

Paul said:


> I was raised Catholic. After every reading from the Bible in mass, the priest, (or whoever does the reading) always says, "The is the Word of The Lord". Not "this is the word of some human individuals experience with God."



As was I, but every priest I spoke to, except one, explained things to me as allegorical in nature. So that was my experience.



Paul said:


> The strict view of Christianity is that The Bible is The Inerrant Word of God, and that God is both omniscient and omnipotent.
> 
> I know that most modern Christians tend to treat The Bible as allegorical, but doing so conflicts with the basic tenets of the faith. If you believe in God, then the word of God _must_ be true. Not mostly true, but absolutely true. That many Christians are willing to suspend some belief in the absolute truth of The Bible shows that their faith in God is not 100%. That doesn't make them bad people, but it does make them sinners in the eyes of their church.


I think a lot of people struggle with that very thing but something that keeps popping up for me is that even with a non-literal view the truths is still there. A classic example is that with all the "rules" put forth in Numbers and Leviticus that we can no longer follow (single fabric cloth, etc) there is a lot in those two books that define Western morality (bad to sleep with close relatives and so on). So, really there is a lot of truth that comes out of it even if we can't literally follow everything in the Bible.

Something interesting, to me at least, is the fact that the Vatican often on their web site and in some of their literature refers to God as the Universe. (I came across this on the posted Catechism teachings). It's not everywhere on their site but it does provide some invaluable insight to the teachings we are trying to discuss.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Science is mostly guess work.


I have science degree. I didn't pursue a career in science, rather social services. But that's not the point. To say that science is mostly guess work, is an extremely inaccurate oversimplification. Consider this an extremely restrained comment on my part.


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Gee whiz! I wonder how you guys decide which colour of socks to wear each day? What with the Earth being round & everything..


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

Time to let the thread die I think....


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

agreed :zzz:


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2007)

This thread is fine...


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

ClintonHammond said:


> This thread is fine...


i agree- some fascinating and intelligent points bieng made here by all of you.
ive always held my own in any theological discussion, but im clearly outclassed here.
:rockon:


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## bluecoyote (May 18, 2007)

There is no place for religion or politics in most boards unless they are about religion and politics. This one is not about either topics. I know it says that it is wide open, but these two topics do not lead to any respect for the opinions of others. These are just too loaded a topic. I would have closed this one as soon as I saw it.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

You know, religion and politics discussion aren't that much different from debate on Barney the Dinosaur.

Die Thread,Die Die Die!!


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2007)

Here's an idea.. if someone here doesn't want to take part in this thread, why not just bog the FK off!?!?!? No one has to open and read this thread, and you sure as FK don't have to post to it.... 

So how about this... if you have nothing of substance to offer the thread, keep your virtual lip buttoned.

Too much to ask?


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## Vincent (Nov 24, 2007)

Im not religous or anything however I would never say there isnt a god of somekind...obviously something happened 2008 years ago that was big enough to reset the calendar...I was born in 1970...that was 1970 years AD...even if I dont belive in religion or whatever i have to believe something big happened back then...to be honest nobody really knows...we cant even figure out how long man has been on earth...Is it hundreds of thousands of years or millions of years?...we dont know shit.


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2007)

"obviously something happened 2008 years ago that was big enough to reset the calendar"
Actually it wasn't reset 2008 years ago.... 

"we dont know shit"
Speak only for yourself eh.


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Yep, it's way more fun to fight here than with boots & fists in person! :sport-smiley-002:

It's quite obvious that we humans agree on very little. 
No wonder wars & racism & stuff never ends.
Rich or poor, gay or straight, pink or blue...it really doesn't matter.. kjdr


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

as i hear it julius ceasar reset the calender- in 46 bc lol


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## Guest (Dec 29, 2007)

You might wish to read this, fraser... 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar#History


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

lol- well i considered the pope gregory changes to be more an adjustment then a reset so i didnt mention it. but ya, a good point.


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## Vincent (Nov 24, 2007)

ClintonHammond said:


> "obviously something happened 2008 years ago that was big enough to reset the calendar"
> Actually it wasn't reset 2008 years ago....
> 
> "we dont know shit"
> Speak only for yourself eh.


I can admit i dont know shit...doesnt bother me to be wrong on something...like I said Im not religious so im not aware of the facts or background of how many years or whatever it was...I guess I was just trying to say that to ignore that god exists is to ignore that jesus existed and to ignore that means that you dont believe what year it is either because its almost 2008 AD.

Like I said im not religious however I would never say there isnt a god or whatever it is.


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## sneakypete (Feb 2, 2006)

I saw on the History Channel that almost every new Roman Emperor changed the calendar `til pope Gregory put his foot down. The Japanese still use the old lunar calendar as well as the Gregorian...gets a bit confusing sometimes.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

yup it is confusing lol- but it helps to remember that the calender is based on astrological cycles- some variance is made in different ones, but essentially, no true calendar has any religious significance, any significance that remains was that which was forcibly applied, or put into our heads through centuries of indoctrination. the fact that jesus is said to have been born 2008 years ago is just a matter of convenience- where are his birth records? remember that christianity was a cult, and not a religion, for hundreds of years- and was basically an illegal practice until 313ad- for perspective, had charles manson not been such a violent little feller, hundreds of years from now he could be the one worshipped. 
christianity, and jesus are important to humankind, because they appease our human fear of death, and god himself acts as a replacement for all the adults who watched over us when we were young. all religions prey on this human need to be a part of something. and for a long time, and for many peoples, church was the only place to meet chicks.


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2007)

"however I would never say there isnt a god"
I would, with conviction and impunity!


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## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

fraser said:


> yup it is confusing lol- but it helps to remember that the calender is based on astrological cycles- some variance is made in different ones, but essentially, no true calendar has any religious significance, any significance that remains was that which was forcibly applied, or put into our heads through centuries of indoctrination. the fact that jesus is said to have been born 2008 years ago is just a matter of convenience- where are his birth records? remember that christianity was a cult, and not a religion, for hundreds of years- and was basically an illegal practice until 313ad- for perspective, had charles manson not been such a violent little feller, hundreds of years from now he could be the one worshipped.
> christianity, and jesus are important to humankind, because they appease our human fear of death, and god himself acts as a replacement for all the adults who watched over us when we were young. all religions prey on this human need to be a part of something. and for a long time, and for many peoples, church was the only place to meet chicks.


I just have to comment on the cult comment a bit... :wink:

Most of the histories I have read state the Christianity wasn't a cult, but was considered a Jewish sect. Early Christians, for at least the first few decades saw themselves as Jews, hence the emphasis on the Old Testament teachings in the letters of the Apostles. The difference just happened to be that they believed that the Messiah was Jesus while the rest of the Jewish sects were, and still are, waiting for the Messiah. Overtime, a fairly short period of time if memory serves me correctly, the developed their own identity. The word Christian was actually first used around 100AD which leads me to guess that they had established this identity mid-century. I am sure from the Roman perspective that the early Christians were a cult as they were outside the legal religions of their time.

There are some interesting details here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity

Not sure how your Mason analogy works though, you lost me there....his intent was violence from the beginning, not change...


----------



## kous (Apr 12, 2007)

One Christian told me that god is you and its in yourself. When you pray you pray to yourself. When you ask for forgiveness, you are forgiving yourself. It gives us faith. Inner strength. Hope. But for many, its more assuring, if someone or something, whom or whatever it may be, is with them. To cheer them on. To say, "hey, you can do this".
As a non-Christian, I agree.

Science and Belief are the answers to questions that neither can't answer. They counteract one another and therefor; creates a balance. Some people have their own beliefs. Others have a hard time finding it so they seek with the help of others. 
I have an engineering background, so like Robert1950 I have a strong connection with Science. But you know, sometimes in life, I find myself asking myself for miracles.


----------



## kous (Apr 12, 2007)

sneakypete said:


> I saw on the History Channel that almost every new Roman Emperor changed the calendar `til pope Gregory put his foot down. The Japanese still use the old lunar calendar as well as the Gregorian...gets a bit confusing sometimes.


I hate how they try to keep the old stuff but try to bring in the new.
Even some cultural things I find is just old and they should get rid of it!


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2007)

"When you pray you pray to yourself."
My grandfather was fond of saying, "You can pray in one hand and crap in the other, and see which one piles up first."

There was IIRC a study done a couple of years ago that indicated that prayer was, in fact, harmful... I'll dig it up if I can lay finger to it.


----------



## FenderMan (May 24, 2007)

A recent study on prayer: 

You may have to register to view this article. It outlines the results and the results were mixed. Interestingly it seems to be tied to when a patient was told they were being prayed for. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html

Clinton, you may be thinking of the 1997 study by the University of New Mexico where patients got worse after prayer. It was widely publicized however that study was later invalidated because it failed the rigor test.

Here is another take on the study of prayer: http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0709/p10s01-woeu.html

It would seem that there are (Google Search) results to prove either side of the argument:
http://www.google.ca/search?q=studies+on+effects+of+prayer&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.mandriva:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

jroberts said:


> I've never actually met someone offended by the word "Christmas" or who wants to get rid of the word. I'm sure there are people like that out there, but I never really come across it.
> 
> What I *do* come across on pretty much a daily basis are people complaining about people who are offended by the word. I know many, many people who complain about the "war on Christmas" and go on about how terrible it is and how they *refuse* to say "Happy Holidays" and the like.
> 
> That whole persecution complex a lot of people seem to have this time of year is what gets *really* tiring.



...man, don't get me started!

some school in ottawa dared to change the word "christmas" to "holiday", and i swear the world was coming to an end, if local talk radio was any indication.

it might be good, once in a while, to simply accept that these are attempts to be inclusive, misguided though they may be, and not a "left wing attack on christmas".

you would have a very difficult time finding someone who is actually offended by christmas.

the growing number of xenophobes who are absolutely outraged by the substitution of the word "holiday", however, speaks volumes.

it is utterly transparent, and all under the guise of "political correctness".

-dh


----------



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...man, don't get me started!
> 
> some school in ottawa dared to change the word "christmas" to "holiday", and i swear the world was coming to an end, if local talk radio was any indication.
> 
> ...


I dunno, David. I think it's actually a reaction TO political correctness! 

Some folks feel that removing Christmas is an attack on their culture. They feel that today every minority's culture is valued except the original "mainstream", whatever that is.

I'm not saying they're correct in their fears. I'm not a christian myself but Christmas is part of my own culture. Still, there is lots of evidence of reasons for them to feel they're under attack. The word "Christmas" has been conspicuously absent from the elementary school that both of my daughters attended and do attend. Sometimes the contortions to avoid saying the "C" word at the Christmas recital are actually funny, in a black humour sort of way!

:food-smiley-004:


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

To anyone who asks, "What's wrong with being religious?", I'd say what Stan said to John Edwards...

"Because the big questions in life are tough: Why are we here? Where are we from? Where are we going? But if people believe in asshole douchey liars like you, we're never gonna find the real answer to those questions. You aren't just lying, you're slowing down the progress of all mankind, you douche!"


Derpey derpa derpidy doop....


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Yo Hammond..do you kiss your Mother with that mouth?


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

Aaaaah... That's a beautiful sight...

"This message is hidden because *danbo* is on your ignore list."


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

*I dunno, David. I think it's actually a reaction TO political correctness! *

...meaning what, exactly? in the post 9-11 world we have developed a morbid fear of the slightest perception of political correctness. it has become a blanket phrase that seems to apply to any attempt by those pesky lefties to be inclusive. in an age where we are so afraid of other cultures, inclusiveness is now a bad thing.

*Some folks feel that removing Christmas is an attack on their culture. They feel that today every minority's culture is valued except the original "mainstream", whatever that is.*

...time to organize a pity party for all those poor, misunderstood and downtroddeen white folks, don't you think?

*I'm not saying they're correct in their fears. I'm not a christian myself but Christmas is part of my own culture. Still, there is lots of evidence of reasons for them to feel they're under attack. *

...its a sign that the white male christian conservative majority may soon become a minority. for me, it cannot happen soon enough, but i don't blame them for worrying that they may soon get a taste of their own medicine.

they will.

*The word "Christmas" has been conspicuously absent from the elementary school that both of my daughters attended and do attend.*

...welcome to a multicultural world. despite the post 9-11 xenophobic protestations, there is no turning back now.

the future is here - say goodbye to your "white" christmas.

:smile:

-dh


----------



## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

What have I done! 


I think this whole topic has exposed the saddest reality of all..

How GODLESS our world has become. 

Forgive me :bow: Clinton Hammond & all your followers.. NOT!


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

From the same episode (just cause I think it's funny as hell)

Stan- You're a douche.
John- I'm not a douche. What if I believe I really talk to dead people?
Stan- Then you're a stupid douche.

LOL

The saddest thing about that episode is the vast numbers of people such attitudes (As expressed by the John Edwards character) represent. People who wallow willingly in their own ignorance and 'stupidstition'... and who then have the audacity to try to act superior to people who are rational, logical and open minded.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

david henman said:


> *I dunno, David. I think it's actually a reaction TO political correctness! *
> 
> ...meaning what, exactly? in the post 9-11 world we have developed a morbid fear of the slightest perception of political correctness. it has become a blanket phrase that seems to apply to any attempt by those pesky lefties to be inclusive. in an age where we are so afraid of other cultures, inclusiveness is now a bad thing.
> 
> ...


Are you being serious???? 
Man, you might as well bend over and let Allah have his way with you now. Why wait?


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Here's a link for the athiests that miss-out on the Rapture..

http://www.primitiveways.com/index.html


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## The Kicker Of Elves (Jul 20, 2006)

danbo said:


> Here's a link for the athiests that miss-out on the Rapture..
> 
> http://www.primitiveways.com/index.html



The Rapture (and it's associated media like Left Behind) is a disturbing and creepy idea. Talk about an inclusive/exclusive concept. <shudder>


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

What IF.. Sylvia Browne isn't nuts ? :banana:

Or Nostradamus,etc..

What IF Armageddon is a not-so-distant reality? 

What if Ozzy was right when he sang "WAR PIGS"?

What if your Aunt had balls.. LOL


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

"The Rapture is a disturbing and creepy idea."
The Rapture is a prime example of how desperately ignorant some people are... They'll believe any nonsense that comes down the pike. Through the entire course of human history there have been countless doomsayers and predictions of apocalypse.... Know how many of them have even come close to being right?

Zero.

"Talk about an inclusive/exclusive concept"
That's the bigotry of religion for you.... that's just one reason to abolish it.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> Are you being serious????
> Man, you might as well bend over and let Allah have his way with you now. Why wait?



....the true legacy of 9-11: a fervent return to racism and xenophobia, fueled by the usual suspects: fear and ignorance.

i have a question for you:

in any given war, which side defines itself as "the good guys"?

-dh


----------



## The Kicker Of Elves (Jul 20, 2006)

danbo said:


> What IF.. Sylvia Browne isn't nuts ? :banana:



Then she's either lying or the worse psychic ever...


----------



## The Kicker Of Elves (Jul 20, 2006)

david henman said:


> ....the true legacy of 9-11: a fervent return to racism and xenophobia, fueled by the usual suspects: fear and ignirance.
> 
> i have a question for you:
> 
> ...


Sucker question, it's both.

The idea that anyone twirls their mustache and goes "bwuahaha I am incredibly eeevil" is one born of fiction.

The mentally damaged notwithstanding.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

danbo said:


> What have I done!
> I think this whole topic has exposed the saddest reality of all..
> How GODLESS our world has become.



...it can't happen soon enough for me.

in an ideal world, religion and spirituality would be deeply PERSONAL matters, NOT a medium through which the masses can be brainwashed, manipulated and controlled.

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

The Kicker Of Elves said:


> Sucker question, it's both.
> The idea that anyone twirls their mustache and goes "bwuahaha I am incredibly eeevil" is one born of fiction.
> The mentally damaged notwithstanding.



...exactly!

so, are you one of "the good guys", too?

-dh


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

"The idea that anyone twirls their mustache and goes "bwuahaha I am incredibly eeevil" is one born of fiction."

I do it all the time!


Heh

(Because I've seen what it means to be "Good" and my response was "FK THAT!". )


----------



## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Man this thread is worse than riding a bicycle with no seat! LOL!!

WE are all lost..Peace brothers :smilie_flagge17:


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

david henman said:


> ....the true legacy of 9-11: a fervent return to racism and xenophobia, fueled by the usual suspects: fear and ignorance.
> 
> i have a question for you:
> 
> ...


The side that allows freedom of choice! :smilie_flagge17:


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> The side that allows freedom of choice! :smilie_flagge17:



...your opinion is...um...utterly fascinating. 

any chance you might try answering the question?

-dh


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## The Kicker Of Elves (Jul 20, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> The side that allows freedom of choice! :smilie_flagge17:


Interesting answer.

You are right if you mean they define themselves the "good guys" by their actions.

I think the question was geared towards "who claims to be the good guys."


----------



## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)




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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...your opinion is...um...utterly fascinating.
> 
> any chance you might try answering the question?
> 
> -dh


The question can only be answered by matter of opinion, just like the question,
"Does God exist?" 

Ask me this question on the battlefield dodging bullets and mortars and I can give you the true answer to your question.

"There are no atheists in a foxhole"


----------



## The Kicker Of Elves (Jul 20, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> The question can only be answered by matter of opinion, just like the question,
> "Does God exist?"
> 
> Ask me this question on the battlefield dodging bullets and mortars and I can give you the true answer to your question.
> ...


I see your oft-cited quote and counter with James Morrow's:

"'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn’t an argument against atheism, it’s an argument against foxholes."


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

The Kicker Of Elves said:


> I see your oft-cited quote and counter with James Morrow's:
> 
> "'There are no atheists in foxholes' isn’t an argument against atheism, it’s an argument against foxholes."


There are also VERY few atheists on death row or in prison in general.

That's not a relection on the merit of religion. It's just human nature to grasp desperately at any hope when logic is no longer of any help.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> The question can only be answered by matter of opinion, just like the question, "Does God exist?"


...why?

you don't think al queda believe they are "the good guys"?

you don't think that they believe they are on god's side?

and, of course, in just about any conflict, each side hates the other side, and believes the other side is evil, and is "the enemy".

its a vicious and violent circle. would you like to see it continue?

-dh


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

"It's just human nature to grasp desperately at any hope..."
They call it "clutching at straws" don't they?

"matter of opinion, just like the question,"Does God exist?"
Opinion doesn't outweigh evidence.... There is not a single shred of evidence that supports the existence of ANY "supernatural being".


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> Opinion doesn't outweigh evidence.... There is not a single shred of evidence that supports the existence of ANY "supernatural being".


What is the evidence that supports it doesn't exist?


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> "It's just human nature to grasp desperately at any hope..."
> They call it "clutching at straws" don't they?
> "matter of opinion, just like the question,"Does God exist?"
> Opinion doesn't outweigh evidence.... There is not a single shred of evidence that supports the existence of ANY "supernatural being".



...we are all born into a spiritual vacuum. without some sort of spirituality, some form of faith, we are lost.

sadly, however, once we find a way to fill that vacuum, we immediately decide that one size fits all, and turn our personal convictions into a religion.

-dh


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> What is the evidence that supports it doesn't exist?


Rap "artists"?


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> What is the evidence that supports it doesn't exist?


...what evidence is there that i am not god?

-dh


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Rap artists?


...brittany spears.

-dh


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...what evidence is there that i am not god?
> 
> -dh




:bow: Well as I can find no other more reasonable and proveable explanation for the existance of man and the world around us, I must concede that you could indeed be god and in light of how much I dig "Fast Train" I'm prepared to go with it.

:bow:


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

Ha ha.................funny answers, but none of it scientific evidence, just opinions, like my answer to Mr. Henman's question.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> Are you being serious????
> Man, you might as well bend over and let Allah have his way with you now. Why wait?



...can you recite the xenophobe mantra?

here, say it with me:

"if THESE PEOPLE think they can come to MY country...!!!!"

and, yes, i am quite serious about fighting hatred, fear, ignorance, hypocrisy, racism, xenophobia etc etc etc in a post 9-11 paranoid world.

-dh


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

Paul said:


> This is one of my problems with religious folks. You don't know me, you've never met me, but you've got enough faith in your personal God to judge my life meaningless.
> 
> How many people do you have to step on to climb up on your high horse? Do you wipe your feet?


Anybodys posts here justify these comments?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

danbo said:


> Man this thread is worse than riding a bicycle with no seat! LOL!!
> 
> WE are all lost..Peace brothers :smilie_flagge17:


I'm struggling to see the connection between a cold shaft of steel up the anus and non religious perspectives.

Perhaps the analogy would be more apropos if we were talking about the preponderance of VERY religious folks on death rows all over the world.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> :bow: Well as I can find no other more reasonable and proveable explanation for the existance of man and the world around us, I must concede that you could indeed be god and in light of how much I dig "Fast Train" I'm prepared to go with it.
> 
> :bow:




...oh, man, i only WISH i had written that song. absolutely killer.

-dh


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...oh, man, i only WISH i had written that song. absolutely killer.
> 
> -dh


Not to stray from the topic, but did you play on it? I saw your name on the early AW albums, including if I'm not mistaken "On Record".


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

"What is the evidence that supports it doesn't exist?"
Try getting an education so you'll understand how evidence works....

" How many people do you have to step on to climb up on your high horse?"
Anyone who doesn't share their delusions. Anyone who doesn't bow to the same stupidstition as they do becomes 'fair game' because 'we' won't be 'saved' by their 'ghawd'.

I've read about their 'ghawd' and what his followers do in his 'name'.... I'd MUCH rather burn in their 'pit' than live my life they way they'd have me live it.....


----------



## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)




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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...what evidence is there that i am not god?
> 
> -dh


The world's a bit of a mess. If you were God, I'm sure it would be a much better place. :smile:


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> "What is the evidence that supports it doesn't exist?"
> Try getting an education so you'll understand how evidence works....


What a copout!


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

"If you were God, I'm sure it would be a much better place."
Be glad that -I'm- not, cause I woulda burned the whole thing down a LONG time ago! LOL


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)




----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Not to stray from the topic, but did you play on it? I saw your name on the early AW albums, including if I'm not mistaken "On Record".


...just the acoustic and electric rhythms on "fast train". however, i am completely to blame for that insipid lead solo on "coulda been a lady", although kelly jay from crowbar likes it, so i guess it can't be too bad.

-dh


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

DANG now I want an autograph on my guitar! :food-smiley-004:


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> Anybodys posts here justify these comments?


...yep. and, i would have to say that my mom deserves these comments, as well.

she believes that she has every right to indoctrinate others with her christian beliefs, while at the very same time insisting that others have no right to "shove their beliefs down her throat".

religious folks simply do not get that you cannot have it both ways.

-dh


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...just the acoustic and electric rhythms on "fast train". however, i am completely to blame for that insipid lead solo on "coulda been a lady", although kelly jay from crowbar likes it, so i guess it can't be too bad.
> 
> -dh


Thanks for clarifying that. I LOVE the acoustic rhythm in Fast Train and the solo in Could Have Been a Lady is simple but perfect. I can't imagine hearing that song any other way. In fact I remember hearing the song on the radio when i was a kid (sorry) and not knowing the song name, searching for weeks through the 45 bins trying to find it.

:smilie_flagge17:


----------



## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

ClintonHammond said:


> "What is the evidence that supports it doesn't exist?"
> Try getting an education so you'll understand how evidence works....


If it doesn't fit you must acquit! THAT'S how evidence works!


----------



## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

david henman said:


> i am completely to blame for that insipid lead solo on "coulda been a lady", although kelly jay from crowbar likes it, so i guess it can't be too bad.
> -dh


Ah Man, that's a great solo! Instantly recognizable!


----------



## The Kicker Of Elves (Jul 20, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> What is the evidence that supports it doesn't exist?



Wow, this is just going around and around isn't it? What's next, Pascal's Wager?

Why not ask for the evidence that unicorns don't exist? The burden of proof is carried by the group claiming something exists, not the other way around.


----------



## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

"You have to believe in yourself when no one
else does. That's what makes you a winner."
- Venus Williams


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

danbo said:


> "You have to believe in yourself when no one
> else does. That's what makes you a winner."
> - Venus Williams



...so, like, what if everyone believes in you? what then, mister? huh?

-dh


----------



## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

Requiring that one does their own basic education is hardly a cop-out.... It's unreasonable to expect anyone here to be your Critical Thinking professor.


----------



## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Love you all!


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

FEAR is man's ruler too..


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

"The burden of proof is carried by the group claiming something exists, not the other way around."
+1!

It's a basic structure of logic.... and I'll say it again, in hopes that maybe it sinks into some here

The burden of proof is carried by the group claiming something exists, not the other way around.


----------



## The Kicker Of Elves (Jul 20, 2006)

danbo said:


> FEAR is man's ruler too..


Can you clarify? Do you mean a ruler as a instrument of measure, or a ruler as "one who rules"?

Or ruler as in "watch out for the nun with the ruler"?


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

danbo said:


> FEAR is man's ruler too..



...the twin towers of evil: fear and ignorance.

-dh


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Fear of failure, fear of starvation,fear of abandonment, fear of snakes, fear of ex-wives, fear of poverty, you name it.
We all have fears to face or run from..

This is why God is sought for solace,protection,guidance, love & hope. The desire to have an everlasting peace after death is very appealing.
TO ABIDE BY THE RULES OF THE bIBLE & SOCIETY'S LAWS, ETC. To LIVE a fulfilling & decent life is the ideal. YMMV..


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> The burden of proof is carried by the group claiming something exists, not the other way around.



...again, mister hammond nails it.

i cannot claim that i am god and then put the burden on you to prove that i am not.

only yngvie malmsteem can do that.

-dh


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

danbo said:


> Fear of failure, fear of starvation,fear of abandonment, fear of snakes, fear of ex-wives, fear of poverty, you name it.
> We all have fears to face or run from..



...and, especially in this post 9-11 paranoid world, fear of anyone who is "different from me and you"...

-dh


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

danbo said:


> Fear of failure, fear of starvation,fear of abandonment, fear of snakes, fear of ex-wives, fear of poverty, you name it.
> We all have fears to face or run from..
> 
> This is why God is sought for solace,protection,guidance, love & hope. The desire to have an everlasting peace after death is very appealing.
> TO ABIDE BY THE RULES OF THE bIBLE & SOCIETY'S LAWS, ETC. To LIVE a fulfilling & decent life is the ideal. YMMV..



LOL, well yes, an insurance policy against death would indeed be very appealing, but frankly the insurance salesman in this case seems to be selling policies out of the back of his van with no real assurance that he can pay the claims.


----------



## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Lynyrd Skynyrd Lyrics

Simple Man Lyrics


(Gary Rossington - Ronnie Van Zant)

Mama told me when I was young
Come sit beside me, my only son
And listen closely to what I say.
And if you do this
It will help you some sunny day.
Take your time... Don't live too fast,
Troubles will come and they will pass.
Go find a woman and you'll find love,
And don't forget son,
There is someone up above.

[Chorus:]
And be a simple kind of man.
Be something you love and understand.
Be a simple kind of man.
Won't you do this for me son,
If you can?

Forget your lust for the rich man's gold
All that you need is in your soul,
And you can do this if you try.
All that I want for you my son,
Is to be satisfied.

[Chorus]

Boy, don't you worry... you'll find yourself.
Follow you heart and nothing else.
And you can do this if you try.
All I want for you my son,
Is to be satisfied.

[Chorus]


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## The Kicker Of Elves (Jul 20, 2006)

Danbo,

I don't think Lynyrd Skynyrd lyrics are really an effective debating technique...it's probably less effective than the Mr Limpet poster.


----------



## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Yo bro..I only got my Grade 12 diploma back in '75 ..I'm not Einstein :banana:


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

danbo said:


> Yo bro..I only got my Grade 12 diploma back in '75 ..I'm not Einstein :banana:



:rockon::rockon2:

-dh


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Education does NOT necessarily make one wiser and does not a make an opinion more valid than another in most cases, particularly in one that comes down to beliefs.


My Grandfather was one of the wisest men I have ever met and didn't finish highschool (few did back then).

I'm not knocking education (I'm college educated) but using it to put others down is not cool in my eyes.

As for being "Einstein", I'd be happy to be Epstein.


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Yo Kicker of lil' people..ya gotta admit we're truly having fun here.
Live Love Laugh..make of life what you will.


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Paul was a great apostle..you must be proud of the name your parents gave you?
I wouldn't challenge GOD too earnestly..lest you get a reply you aren't ready for. :bow:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

danbo said:


> Paul was a great apostle..you must be proud of the name your parents gave you?
> I wouldn't challenge GOD too earnestly..lest you get a reply you aren't ready for. :bow:


Any reply would be most gratefully accepted, but we want to hear it from your boss.


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

He's yours too!


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

"Only those who dare to fail greatly
can ever achieve greatly."
- Robert F. Kennedy


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

danbo said:


> He's yours too!


Nope. 

I don't acknowledge his authority or existance. A simple burning bush or booming voice from the sky will suffice however.


MY boss is real. He's sitting across from me and I can reach over and touch him. I also know he exists because he sends me e-mail.


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)

Paul..if you let some of the air out of your head..you would allow some much needed space for changes..:wave:


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

danbo said:


> He's yours too!



...no, danbo, and that is precisely where you religious folk cross the line.

and anyone who objects is immediately accused of bashing religion.

my suspicion is that if your faith was a solid and secure as you think it is, you not be a victim of this need to proselytize.

-dh


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## The Kicker Of Elves (Jul 20, 2006)

danbo said:


> Yo Kicker of lil' people..ya gotta admit we're truly having fun here.


I'm enjoying the thread.


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## Guest (Jan 3, 2008)

"I wouldn't challenge GOD too earnestly"
Right here... right now... I spit in the face of "God"! (OR I would if there was any 'god')


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## The Kicker Of Elves (Jul 20, 2006)

danbo said:


> Paul..if you let some of the air out of your head..you would allow some much needed space for changes..:wave:


And you were doing so well...


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

Thread has lead to personal attacks and is being closed for that reason.


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