# Soundmen



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

A buddy of mine posted this on Facebook. Don't know where he grabbed it. I posted my response below this. Maybe most won't agree with me but this is my experience.

Listen to the sound man. 

You've got to hope the Sound Dude is there for a reason. If you're lucky, he's got at least a vague clue how to get a decent sound in the venue. Chances are he's on your side: the better you sound, the better he sounds. Until you piss him off, then all bets are off. He's likely to have some suggestions that will help get the best sound to the audience. Frequently this may include turning down an instrument. Guitarists often won't believe in turning down, thinking their sound will be compromised. But most small and medium venues weren't designed with acoustics in mind. The frequencies that travel well are the low mids and below; the louder you get, the muddier the sound away from the speakers. By paying attention to the sound man, you might be able to avoid the "wall of mud" syndrome. Maybe the stage responds sympathetically if the bass amp is in a certain spot. Maybe the kick drum slaps against the rear wall if pointed in the wrong direction. There's lots of things you can't possibly know if you're onstage. The sound man may be your best friend. Maybe your only friend.

*My Response: 
*
Being a guitar player Sound men are my natural enemy. They want us guitar players to turn down to a level that I'd have a hard time hearing in my music room at home at midnight when everyone is in bed and not a mouse is stirring. Soundmen don't understand why I have a hard time hearing my amp on 1. Maybe its because the monitors are on 10+ with the vocals, keyboards, acoustic guitar going through it. Maybe its because my ear is right next to the drums, which is an acoustic instrument that is impossible for anyone to control other than the drummer himself who pounds it as hard as he can with the fat end of his drumsticks. More times then I can count this wonderfully wise soundman will recommend he puts my guitar signal through the monitors. Yeah thats why I paid $2,000+ for a tube amp, also spending hundreds on NOS Tubes for that nice tone. To hear it through those crap ass monitors. I'm not asking to play ear splittling levels. But whats wrong with having equal stage volume to the drums, who pretty much establishes the stage level unless thier in a booth. I'm quite easy to work with. I'l sidewash my amp. I'll stick it in front of me beside my monitor. I"ll put a sheild in front of it if I have to, to cut down the spike out front. But it seems I always run in to that sound guy that power trips and his way is the only right way.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

As someone who has been on both sides of the equation, my opinion is that the sound man is right.

The biggest problem in getting a nice balanced FOH mix is getting the stage volume down to a manageable level.

When guys insist on blasting their Fender Twin or Marshall Half stack at the audience, you're done before you begin.

A good sound man WANTS you to sound good. He's the one out front with the audience and he knows MUCH better than the band what the mix sounds like out front.

If you think the sound man is your enemy, you should avoid gigging anywhere except a coffee shop.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> As someone who has been on both sides of the equation, my opinion is that the sound man is right.
> 
> The biggest problem in getting a nice balanced FOH mix is getting the stage volume down to a manageable level.
> 
> ...


"Soundman is my enemy", was more tongue in cheek humor. That being said I've run in to more than my share of soundmen that think a 15 watt amp with a single 12 should be run on 1. How does that compete on stage with blasting monitors and a heavy handed drummer. It gets a little ridiculous when I can start to hear my strings acoustically over the amp.
I have also run in to soundmen that are much level headed about it and realize this. but its rare.


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## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)




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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

loudtubeamps said:


>


Turn it up. I can't hear you.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

guitarman2 said:


> "Soundman is my enemy", was more tongue in cheek humor. That being said I've run in to more than my share of soundmen that think a 15 watt amp with a single 12 should be run on 1. How does that compete on stage with blasting monitors and a heavy handed drummer. It gets a little ridiculous when I can start to hear my strings acoustically over the amp.
> I have also run in to soundmen that are much level headed about it and realize this. but its rare.


Get one of these:
Behringer: EUROLIVE B205D


Stick it on a Mic stand in front of you and run your line out from your amp to it, and then to the stage snake. You can adjust your own monitor to your heart's content.
Also
Get your band or Drummer to invest in isolation walls for the drum kit.:
Control Acoustics 5-piece Acrylic Drum Shield | Musician's Friend
They also have the side effect of the drummer playing more quietly because now his sound is semi-enclosed and he realizes how hard/loud he's playing.

I don't even use an Amp anymore. I go direct out of my Digitech multi-effect unit. 
Makes a Gigantic difference.

There are hundreds more tips that more bands should use, but don't. 

But the biggest one is the fact that no venue anywhere (unless its a concert venue) has a separate monitor mixing guy/station.

The guys on stage can't hear the monitors, so they turn it up.
The sound guy gets irritated cause the mix he's made is now off, and turns whatever down.


Individual powered monitors, that are controlled by the player/singer make a huge difference.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

djmarcelca said:


> Get one of these:
> Behringer: EUROLIVE B205D
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah I think the biggest challenge is that we don't play that many gigs where a soundman is used. The odd outdoor gig in the summer and the odd club that supplies its own sound system and soundman. The outdoor gigs usually aren't a problem. Those clubs that supply a sound crew are. I know its partly the bands fault as not working regular with a soundman you have to change how you normally do things. If there is no isolation booth for the drummer (which there never is) the drummer certainly isn't going to carry one for the occasional gig. Although I wish our drummer would invest in one for all gigs whether there's a soundman or not. I know my ears get ringing from those cymbals near my ears. 
As far as going ampless. I don't know if that is something I could ever do. Although I've never tried.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Getting everything over the drums is often a main obstacle in getting a good mix, but I find bassists to be more of a problem than either guitarists or drummers.

The problem with bass is that it tends to open up ten to fifteen feet from the amp. The player barely hears himself (standing next to the amp) but the bass blooms and over powers the room. It's not unusual for me to have to mute the bass channel altogether and mix to that level.

Personally I don't play shows without a good soundman. It's not worth it to me and if I've learned one thing it's that the guys on stage have no idea what it sounds like out front.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> The problem with bass is that it tends to open up ten to fifteen feet from the amp. The player barely hears himself (standing next to the amp) but the bass blooms and over powers the room. It's not unusual for me to have to mute the bass channel altogether and mix to that level.


Yes I've had this same problem using closed back theil ported cabinets. As much as I loved the thump of them they weren't worth the trouble.



Milkman said:


> Personally I don't play shows without a good soundman. It's not worth it to me and if I've learned one thing it's that the guys on stage have no idea what it sounds like out front.


And my concern is not what it sounds like out front. Its the stage sound. And so who's responsibility is that? If I can't hear my self its a difficult and joyless experience. I'm not wanting to turn up so that I hear nothing else. I'd just like to hear my self. 
If the soundman needs to manage stage levels why does he tell instruct the bass and guitar to turn down while the drummer is allowed to bash away at will?
I did play one gig with a drummer that played electric drums. AlthoughI didn't like the sound the stage levels were very easy to control. Thats when I knew it wasn't me. 
One pet peeve I have is a soundman helping me to adjust stage levels with just my guitar playing and no other instrument. Yeah sounds fine while we're doing it but as soon as the other instruments join in I'm completely drowned out.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Yes I've had this same problem using closed back theil ported cabinets. As much as I loved the thump of them they weren't worth the trouble.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again, I've worn both hats and I agree, it has to sound good on stage.

If you have a sound man who only controls guitar levels and lets the drummer bash away, you have the wrong sound man.

A good one will walk on stage during the sound check and hear what you hear. He will suggest amp placement and if he's really well equipped he may propose a plexi shield for the drum kit.

Side washing or even facing the guitar amps straight back is often a great solution to the problem of not hearing yourself. I always side wash my amp.

The biggest problem is almost always stage volume. Small amps, carefully positioned and musicians who actually want to hear the other players are important IMO.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> The biggest problem is almost always stage volume. Small amps, carefully positioned and musicians who actually want to hear the other players are important IMO.


Yes I'm always willing to position the amp differently. I always try to position the amp off axis to the crowd to avoid any spike the amp may have.
I know my current amp probably scares some soundmen. Its a 100 watt Fender Dual Professional. Similar to a twin but in my opinion much different. Its got a nice fat tone even when played on 1. Most twins I've owned didn't sound good turned down. This one does. But I do have to at least hear it.
I tend to think that most clubs don't have the best soundmen and this is where I experience the most trouble. Big outdoor gigs is where the least trouble is experienced. Probably has a little to do with the outdoors not confining the sound as much and bigger out door venues seem to attract the better sound men. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems that way.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Low E on a bass is about 41 Hz. The wave length is around 27 1/2 feet. You would need a pretty big stage to have the full wave develop and to hear it correctly. Now add in reflections (and combinations from other instruments) so that the nodes start adding and subtracting each other.... Also....there are limited ways to mix the levels in the monitors for the musician to hear. There is always some give and take in the process, but the bottom line is for you to decide...do you want to sound good on stage, or do you want to sound good where the audience is? Both would be ideal, probably does not happen often, but like anything else, with practice, it can get better.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Yes I'm always willing to position the amp differently. I always try to position the amp off axis to the crowd to avoid any spike the amp may have.
> I know my current amp probably scares some soundmen. Its a 100 watt Fender Dual Professional. Similar to a twin but in my opinion much different. Its got a nice fat tone even when played on 1. Most twins I've owned didn't sound good turned down. This one does. But I do have to at least hear it.
> I tend to think that most clubs don't have the best soundmen and this is where I experience the most trouble. Big outdoor gigs is where the least trouble is experienced. Probably has a little to do with the outdoors not confining the sound as much and bigger out door venues seem to attract the better sound men. Maybe I'm wrong but it seems that way.


As long as you're not trying to overdrive the power amp on your Fender, hearing yourself should never be an issue. The biggest and most common mistake I see guitarists make in this sense is aiming their amps at their legs.

Guitar amps are extremely directional and they need to be pointed at your ear, not your rear. I always sidewashed my amp and kept it aimed so that I had to step back from the mic to be in the sweet spot.
If you do this correctly, the vocal monitors can be turned down a lot and hearing the guitar should not he a problem.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

As much as I love large wattage amps they are sort of relics from a bygone era when your stage sound was also your FOH sound. I recently downsized from a Hiwatt Custom 50 with 4x12 to a 30 watt 1x12 which is probably still too loud for the average club date.

Unfortunately we are at the mercy of the sound man and I accept that I often have to sacrifice decent stage sound to avoid killing the folks in the audience. I've finished many sets with ringing in my ears and lousy vocal monitors only to have a trusted friend tell me how great it sounded out front. 

If you watch any of those Premier Guitar Rig Rundowns it's interesting to see how many artists keep their amps offstage and occasionally even use isolation cabinets to reduce stage volume. Others have abandoned amps altogether and gone the Fractal route. 

There are many variables of course, many of these bands also use in ear monitors and have dedicated monitor sound men. 

I find some sound guys are really passionate about what they do and are willing to spend the time making adjustments to make the show pleasurable for everyone. Occasionally I've had them ask me to turn my amp up. To other sound men you are just one of five other bands making demands for "more vocals in the monitors" and they don't really care.

Whoever you end up with a "please" and "thank you" go a long way in ensuring he doesn't go for a cigarette during your set.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> As long as you're not trying to overdrive the power amp on your Fender, hearing yourself should never be an issue. The biggest and most common mistake I see guitarists make in this sense is aiming their amps at their legs.
> 
> Guitar amps are extremely directional and they need to be pointed at your ear, not your rear. I always sidewashed my amp and kept it aimed so that I had to step back from the mic to be in the sweet spot.
> If you do this correctly, the vocal monitors can be turned down a lot and hearing the guitar should not he a problem.


Yes I used to be one of those guys that had my combo amp on the floor cause I liked the added bottom end it seemed to have. But over the years I've been using an amp stand to bring it up and tilted back a bit. I then turn it slightly off axis so I don't get that mid spike my Celeston V30's have. I also make sure its not pointing directly out front where someone else might hear that on axis harshness. Sidewashing is my favorite way as I can keep any sound from directly radiating out front. And when I have the room I do that.
Very rarely can I open my amp up but I get all my grit from pedals so I don't really need to. And as I said my amp sounds great at very low volumes. With the older twins I used to own I could never get them sounding good till about 3 and by then it was too loud for anywhere.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Fundamentally, I think what we're dealing with is differential attention. The musician is paying attention principally to their own sound, which is somewhat masked by all those other pesky instruments and voices. The sound person is attending to the overall sound. They are trying to be a bit like a recording engineer AND producer, making the overall blend work well.

In many respects, they are both right. BUt since it is the customer at the gig who is paying for it, not the individual musician, the sound man is going to have trump the usician, however unsatisfying it is for the musician.

In an ideal world, everybody on stage would be wearing sound-isolating earphones for monitors, and their monitor feed would be a mic at the back of the performance space. Maybe then, musicians and soundmen would be on the same page.


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## OldGuitarPlayer (Feb 25, 2013)

This is the sound of a 1953 Telecaster through a dimed (volume on 10) Fender Twin. There is no pedal or effects other than the amp's built in reverb. It's hard to tell from the video but Roy's amp is not facing the audience.. Roy also used to lay his amp down on it's back with the speaker pointing at the ceiling as to not kill the people in the audience. No soundman was ever gonna tell Roy to turn down... 

[video=youtube;DDOIL5OqvYs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDOIL5OqvYs[/video]


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

OldGuitarPlayer said:


> This is the sound of a 1953 Telecaster through a dimed (volume on 10) Fender Twin. There is no pedal or effects other than the amp's built in reverb. It's hard to tell from the video but Roy's amp is not facing the audience.. Roy also used to lay his amp down on it's back with the speaker pointing at the ceiling as to not kill the people in the audience. No soundman was ever gonna tell Roy to turn down...
> 
> [video=youtube;DDOIL5OqvYs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDOIL5OqvYs[/video]


Ah now you did it. Now I'm off to youtube for the next couple of hours to watch videos of Roy. Take this over SRV anyday.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

In this one I can see his twin facing backwards at 1:25

[video=youtube;deeBQZ8Aklc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deeBQZ8Aklc[/video]


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

As a player, I've used everything from a ridiculously high powered half stack (no, not 100 watts, 200 watts or even 300 watts. Try 800 watts), to going direct via Vox tonelab and everything in between.

I can honestly say that overall, the best mix I ever had both onstage and offstage was with the Tonelab.

These days I tend to enjoy small tube amps but playing at home or in the studio and playing live are entirely different animals.

I never had any trouble hearing myself when going direct. I had my own monitor mix with two nice wedges.

Anyone else who wanted to hear me had their own mix (four mixes altogether).

Obviously with all the guitar coming out of the wedges, not much was blasting out at the sound man or the audience.

Controlled, clean, stereo guitar.

I think if many players tried the rig I used they would be more receptive to the technology.

The Fractal stuff is widely reputed to be much better than what I used.

It no longer sounds like a cheesy transistor radio.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

OldGuitarPlayer said:


> This is the sound of a 1953 Telecaster through a dimed (volume on 10) Fender Twin. There is no pedal or effects other than the amp's built in reverb. It's hard to tell from the video but Roy's amp is not facing the audience.. Roy also used to lay his amp down on it's back with the speaker pointing at the ceiling as to not kill the people in the audience. No soundman was ever gonna tell Roy to turn down...
> 
> [video=youtube;DDOIL5OqvYs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDOIL5OqvYs[/video]


I didn't watch this in its entirety but I was wondering if the drummer ever used any of those Toms?


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

OldGuitarPlayer said:


> This is the sound of a 1953 Telecaster through a dimed (volume on 10) Fender Twin. There is no pedal or effects other than the amp's built in reverb. It's hard to tell from the video but Roy's amp is not facing the audience.. Roy also used to lay his amp down on it's back with the speaker pointing at the ceiling as to not kill the people in the audience. No soundman was ever gonna tell Roy to turn down...
> 
> [video=youtube;DDOIL5OqvYs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDOIL5OqvYs[/video]


that video is my proof of the worst blues singer I have ever heard.
Thank god he can play guitar casuse sure as hell he cant sing.
I'll assume there are those out there that will blame the sound man for his uninspired attempt at singing.
But then again its only rock en roll..

for those interested in the position of his amp, there are clear shots in this video..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMcjPZgK9GM

Does a fender Twin realy sound that clean on 10? ....I would thing it would break up nicely on 9....lol
G.


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## the_fender_guy (Jul 22, 2008)

Of the half dozen or more times I saw Roy he never had his amp facing the ceiling but he always had it facing away from the audience. It didn't seem overly loud. One of my favourites.


OldGuitarPlayer said:


> This is the sound of a 1953 Telecaster through a dimed (volume on 10) Fender Twin. There is no pedal or effects other than the amp's built in reverb. It's hard to tell from the video but Roy's amp is not facing the audience.. Roy also used to lay his amp down on it's back with the speaker pointing at the ceiling as to not kill the people in the audience. No soundman was ever gonna tell Roy to turn down...
> 
> [video=youtube;DDOIL5OqvYs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDOIL5OqvYs[/video]


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

Folks who understand they are but one of a group that must sound good together have a better chance of doing so, on stage and FOH. There is no way that a tech can make a group sound their best if the demands of one individual are put ahead of the group.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ronmac said:


> Folks who understand they are but one of a group that must sound good together have a better chance of doing so, on stage and FOH. There is no way that a tech can make a group sound their best if the demands of one individual are put ahead of the group.


Very true. A band should make an effort to meet and befriend the sound man whenever possible and vice versa. What should happen is an open discussion between the band and the tech to establish the sound the band is looking for and the steps the tech thinks should be taken to accomplish that.

It takes cooperation to get a good sound for the guys on stage and the people in the seats.


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

the_fender_guy said:


> Of the half dozen or more times I saw Roy he never had his amp facing the ceiling but he always had it facing away from the audience. It didn't seem overly loud. One of my favourites.


Haha...great video of Roy. Regarding it being "overly loud" though, did you notice the hippy right in front of Roy at about the 4:18 mark? He sticks his finger in his right ear to block it. Probably pretty loud where he is sitting, lol.


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## OldGuitarPlayer (Feb 25, 2013)

GTmaker said:


> that video is my proof of the worst blues singer I have ever heard.
> Thank god he can play guitar casuse sure as hell he cant sing.
> I'll assume there are those out there that will blame the sound man for his uninspired attempt at singing.
> But then again its only rock en roll..
> ...


Roy was never known as a singer. This was one of the very few tunes he sang. If you new anything about Roy Buchanan you would know that already. He was a session player (and one of the best) for years before he got his due.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

GTmaker said:


> OldGuitarPlayer said:
> 
> 
> > This is the sound of a 1953 Telecaster through a dimed (volume on 10) Fender Twin. There is no pedal or effects other than the amp's built in reverb. It's hard to tell from the video but Roy's amp is not facing the audience.. Roy also used to lay his amp down on it's back with the speaker pointing at the ceiling as to not kill the people in the audience. No soundman was ever gonna tell Roy to turn down...
> ...


I thought Roy usually played a Vibrolux? FWIW his guitar volume was rarely full up.


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