# Which Non-Fender Tele Would Be The One You Would Choose



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

There are many telecaster models made by different manufacturers. Are there any ones that you like outside of the Fender brand? Here are some nice ones for a very decent price.

Gravity Thinline - Ash Body-$159.95 http://www.rondomusic.com/gravityntasvtn.html










Douglas Gravity - Ash Burly top - $139.95 http://www.rondomusic.com/gravitywfshtbs.html










SX Furrian-Alder Body-$99.95 or Ash Body-$109.95 http://www.rondomusic.com/furrianmnvwh.html


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I had a Suhr in mind when I saw the thread title, but I see you have something different in mind.
without knowing anything about the kind of music you play or your other equipment ,i'd say its pretty much personal preference for the above ones....I like humbuckers myself (middle one), although that kind of un-tele.

dont get too caught up in the "tops" in this price range, its probably just a graphic veneer, not actual wood. But if you like it, why not?

Also, if youre very price conscious, be sure and allow another $50-100. to get these properly setup, you cant expect much from a $150. guitar out of the box. You may end up also wanting to do some upgrades as well...that may put you back in Fender MIM territory, or something else on the used market.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

there can be only one: the dillion rosewood tele


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Diablo said:


> I had a Suhr in mind when I saw the thread title, but I see you have something different in mind.
> without knowing anything about the kind of music you play or your other equipment ,i'd say its pretty much personal preference for the above ones....I like humbuckers myself (middle one), although that kind of un-tele.
> 
> dont get too caught up in the "tops" in this price range, its probably just a graphic veneer, not actual wood. But if you like it, why not?
> ...


No, I don't have anything in mind, necessarily. I was just wondering what others have seen and like. Where can you get prices on Suhr guitars?


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## Intrepid (Oct 9, 2008)

I don't know what they cost, but having watched a couple of builds and listened to some audio, I am very tempted to try out a Canadian Breed Tele by our own Bill Schmelta (spelling???). I would have to sell a couple of guitars but I think it would be a worthwhile expenditure.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Mind you it is still a Leo Fender guitar,... G&L Bluesboy, chambered with no f-holes


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## starjag (Jan 30, 2008)

Disregard the one on the left... I am biased towards Ron Kirn. I have two of his Teles.


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## Hammertone (Feb 3, 2006)

These are nice if you can find one, as made in Washburn's Chicago Custom Shop in the early 1990s:


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Robert1950 said:


> Mind you it is still a Leo Fender guitar,... G&L Bluesboy, chambered with no f-holes


Drool. How about a plug for a Canadian builder? Alistair Miller's Barncasters are pretty darn cool.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Hammertone said:


> These are nice if you can find one, as made in Washburn's Chicago Custom Shop in the early 1990s:


They, unfortunately are not made any longer. I wonder why, since it is such a popular style guitar.


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## Fiveway (Mar 21, 2010)

This is where my head's at these days. Some call it blasphemy, I call it near-perfect.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Best tele I ever had was a non-Fender. Hamer T-51.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Another vote for Canadian Breed here.
Hand built guitar at a reasonable price, hard to beat.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

I have this old mid-80s Tele. Two humbuckers and the belly cut on the back (alder body). Did some custom work to her, appearance-wise. Just a fantastic guitar to play. Got the guitar for about $200 a couple of years back in a Craigslist deal.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

No question .. my main guitar these days .. Patty o" Caster # 7


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

sulphur said:


> Another vote for Canadian Breed here.
> Hand built guitar at a reasonable price, hard to beat.


I'm curious what makes them worth $1000.00 or more than a Peavey Generation EXP or similar guitar?


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## rockinbluesfan (Mar 3, 2008)

http://www.larrivee.com/instruments/electrics/bakersfield/bakersfieldspecs.php


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> I'm curious what makes them worth $1000.00 or more than a Peavey Generation EXP or similar guitar?


If you have to ask..then i's clearly not for you.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Good answer Al.



Steadfastly said:


> I'm curious what makes them worth $1000.00 or more than a Peavey Generation EXP or similar guitar?


Probably the biggest thing would be attention to detail.
Everything except the hardware is made by hand.
Handwound pups if you so desire. 
Made to your specs.

A thousand bucks over a production guitar is not a whole lot in my eyes.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

sulphur said:


> Good answer Al.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


LOL..did'nt mean it to sound like a dick answer..but when i get a client who brings me a MIM strat and asks me why he should pay 3000$ for a Custom Shop Strat of even 1500$ for a Standard one in store, it's hard to keep a straight face. I usually tell them they will learn the difference with experience overtime.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

lol

No, I actually meant it.


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## Fajah (Jun 28, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> There are many telecaster models made by different manufacturers. Are there any ones that you like outside of the Fender brand? Here are some nice ones for a very decent price.
> 
> 
> SX Furrian-Alder Body-$99.95 or Ash Body-$109.95 http://www.rondomusic.com/furrianmnvwh.html


I've had an STL-Ash with the old headstock for many years. With a minimal amount of work, it can be a really good player. I also happen to like the strat contours.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I have had a few, none were Fenders. The nicest one I ever had was the Lado. It was just perfect in every respect


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Wow Scott, what kind of top on that?


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

I just played a G&L "Tribute" Tele and was amazed. This guitar played beautifully, was setup perfectly, and sounds good too. For less than $500 it is a steal and I would easily put it up against any of the USA Fender Teles I have played lately. If I was actually at home, rather than the other side of the country, I would have been hard pressed to leave this in the store. I will be checking these out when I get home.

TG


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

sulphur said:


> Wow Scott, what kind of top on that?


Those were a mix of Brazilian Rosewood, Ebony and Mahogany


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## rockinbluesfan (Mar 3, 2008)

Sorry about the above link - somehow I got a word stuck on the end after php


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

Hammertone said:


> These are nice if you can find one, as made in Washburn's Chicago Custom Shop in the early 1990s:


If anybody sees mine out there please tell it to come home!


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

Nice to see all these. Rockinbluesfan, I was able to follow the link and it is nice to see such beautiful work. Someone in another thread posted a link to this next guys site and I was blown away. Prairie Custom guitars: http://www.prairiecustomguitars.com/thetripincaster.htm. I love the spalted maple top.

Mike DeTemple's reputation has had me drooling over his instruments for a long time. It's all about the tone: http://www.detempleguitars.com/temp/CATALOG_ITEMS/DeTemple_52_over.php


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

hummingway said:


> Nice to see all these. Rockinbluesfan, I was able to follow the link and it is nice to see such beautiful work. Someone in another thread posted a link to this next guys site and I was blown away. Prairie Custom guitars: http://www.prairiecustomguitars.com/thetripincaster.htm. I love the spalted maple top.


Don't know how much Marty is doing anymore.. he had a run of bad luck ....between divorce and wind storms, I can truly say it can be addictive building them .. I have posted this several times but I got carried away one winter...


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

One cool thing about Tele style guitars is the "back yard mechanic" nature of the design. 

It doesn't take a luthier to come up with a great result.That's not to I ply that a skilled luthier won't do better than I will, but with good parts and careful assembly you can have a great Tele-ish guitar.


This one is:Mighty Mite bodyMighty Mite neckWilkenson compensated three saddle bridgeBill Lawrence pickups.It's solid, rings clean and sounds every inch a Tele.


http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b221/MikeLaPointe/?action=view¤t=S3000084.jpg&evt=user_media_share


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

This is the best Tele that I've owned over the years. It was made by Saul Koll and is definitely a rare bird since he builds mostly original designs. Not sure what I was thinking when I sold it, but pretty much regretted it right away.


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

I Just aquired this Beauty( "Becky") Fom Ken Arsenault at Diablo Guitars. (a local luthier) Features are; Warmoth neck with accessible truss adjustment, Lindy Fralin pups, mahogany back, swamp ash top, Ekki binding,(hence the name "Becky"), Solid Black Walnut pick gaurd. Plays like a dream!
http://i660.photobucket.com/albums/uu321/urko99/Becky002.jpg


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

> One cool thing about Tele style guitars is the "back yard mechanic" nature of the design.


The design itself is brilliant. By inventing string trees and building the headstock like they did totally changed the guitar industry, knocking off hours on a build. 

The body shape is also something that attracts my eye... even after all these years.. I am just drawn to it.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Here is a beauty if you have a few k laying around

http://stcatharines.kijiji.ca/c-buy...-by-Luthier-Freddy-Gabrsek-W0QQAdIdZ342057465


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## Latiator (Jul 18, 2007)

Milkman said:


> This one is:Mighty Mite bodyMighty Mite neckWilkenson compensated three saddle bridgeBill Lawrence pickups.It's solid, rings clean and sounds every inch a Tele.
> http://s20.photobucket.com/albums/b221/MikeLaPointe/?action=view¤t=S3000084.jpg&evt=user_media_share


That is one beautiful tele-esque guitar Milkman! Nice work.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

al3d said:


> LOL..did'nt mean it to sound like a dick answer..but when i get a client who brings me a MIM strat and asks me why he should pay 3000$ for a Custom Shop Strat of even 1500$ for a Standard one in store, it's hard to keep a straight face. I usually tell them they will learn the difference with experience overtime.


I don't believe this. Perhaps this experience will explain why.

I wanted a custom neck made and shopped around for prices. The best neck I could find from one who produced necks in bulk was from Warmoth which was just over $300.00. When I asked one of the custom neck builders what the difference was in his neck and the one from Warmoth, he agreed that Warmoth made great necks and there was virtually no difference. Then he said the reason his was more than twice the price was because he made one at a time and they made several at a time.

Winding things by hand, soldering by hand and doing some other things by hand does not make them better. Rather, they are made slower and therefore cost more. If the materials are the same, doing things by machine and computer are more accurate than those done by hand. That is a proven fact.

On the other hand, if you want something that is a one of and may be slightly different than the next custom one your luthier makes, then that is up to each individual. It just doesn't make sense that it's actually better. Regards, Steadfastly


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Steadfastly said:


> I don't believe this. Perhaps this experience will explain why.
> 
> I wanted a custom neck made and shopped around for prices. The best neck I could find from one who produced necks in bulk was from Warmoth which was just over $300.00. When I asked one of the custom neck builders what the difference was in his neck and the one from Warmoth, he agreed that Warmoth made great necks and there was virtually no difference. Then he said the reason his was more than twice the price was because he made one at a time and they made several at a time.
> 
> ...


I would agree with that statement when it comes to manufacturing things, for the most part. The main difference in the costs and quality are the components and materials. A guitar that cost $150 is going to have the absolute cheapest materials and components available. It has too or they could not sell it for $150

When you start to put in things like premium woods, binding, inlays. High end tuners, bridges and pick-ups etc that is where the cost is going to come in. Production guitar or hand made those things are going to cost you. But to me, that is where the $150 guitars wont do it for me because although the bodies and necks may be fine I would end up replacing just about everything else. So by the time you do that you may as well spend a moderate amount and have that guitar.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

But you're comparing a High End neck from Warmoth...wish are good..to a hand made one..not a 150$ guitar's neeck to a Luthier's hand made or Warmoth 300$ neck...BIG difference..so my point is still valid



Steadfastly said:


> I don't believe this. Perhaps this experience will explain why.
> 
> I wanted a custom neck made and shopped around for prices. The best neck I could find from one who produced necks in bulk was from Warmoth which was just over $300.00. When I asked one of the custom neck builders what the difference was in his neck and the one from Warmoth, he agreed that Warmoth made great necks and there was virtually no difference. Then he said the reason his was more than twice the price was because he made one at a time and they made several at a time.
> 
> ...


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

How about more Tele' pics and less opinions. Happy New Year to all forum members and users. 2012 is a few hours away. Whoopee!!!!!!


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I would agree with that statement when it comes to manufacturing things, for the most part. The main difference in the costs and quality are the components and materials. A guitar that cost $150 is going to have the absolute cheapest materials and components available. It has too or they could not sell it for $150
> 
> When you start to put in things like premium woods, binding, inlays. High end tuners, bridges and pick-ups etc that is where the cost is going to come in. Production guitar or hand made those things are going to cost you. But to me, that is where the $150 guitars wont do it for me because although the bodies and necks may be fine I would end up replacing just about everything else. So by the time you do that you may as well spend a moderate amount and have that guitar.


You took the words out of my mouth. Quality of parts, materials and attention to detail yields noticably better sound and playability. But, in the CNC era, if the company uses decent materials you can get very good build quality. Ultimately, maple is maple, alder is alder, ash is ash - who machines it or where doesn't make much difference if the price tag is under 1500 bucks. For example, the neck pocket/neck fit on my 170 dollar tele is as good as I've ever seen. Where it lacks is in the quality of the pickups, pots, tuners and the jack. I can replace all of that for about the same dollar figure as I paid for the guitar (used for some parts) and I'll end up with a tele that sounds as good as a USA tele. I admit it will never be as pretty or as cool as a USA tele though. 

_And _since the Chinese are powder coating their guitars, the finish is better than spray finishes - no user error or varience.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I have had a few, none were Fenders. The nicest one I ever had was the Lado. It was just perfect in every respect


That looks really nice! The wood grain is beautiful and something not usually seen on guitars. It looks fairly dark in the pics and I was wondering if it got darker over the years or is it lighter in person?


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Ultimately, maple is maple, alder is alder, ash is ash -


Actually..you could'nt be more wrong right there.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> I don't believe this. Perhaps this experience will explain why.
> 
> I wanted a custom neck made and shopped around for prices. The best neck I could find from one who produced necks in bulk was from Warmoth which was just over $300.00. When I asked one of the custom neck builders what the difference was in his neck and the one from Warmoth, he agreed that Warmoth made great necks and there was virtually no difference. Then he said the reason his was more than twice the price was because he made one at a time and they made several at a time.
> 
> ...


A CNC machine knows nothing about tone. People search out people who have a knack for winding pickups because it isn't reproducible by a machine. They get on a waiting list and pay Mike De Temple $5k for a more or less ordinary looking tele or strat because they sound and play like nothing coming off a CNC machine. Each to their own.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

hummingway said:


> A CNC machine knows nothing about tone. People search out people who have a knack for winding pickups because it isn't reproducible by a machine. They get on a waiting list and pay Mike De Temple $5k for a more or less ordinary looking tele or strat because they sound and play like nothing coming off a CNC machine. Each to their own.


I may be wrong but I don't think CNC machines are used to wind coils but rather just a winding machine. (See video below)

Now, are you telling us that 2000 turns on a pickup done by hand will sound different than 2000 turns on a pickup done by a machine? If you are, I would have a hard time believing this given they were wound the same. But the machine can be set up to wind in any configuration and do it over and over again in the same exact pattern. Regards, Steadfastly

[video=youtube;fZyDzfw_Rvc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZyDzfw_Rvc[/video]


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Here is a nice blonde that I missed out on. It's a J & D from Korea, sold by Fret City before they closed their doors.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

It would be hard to find a more interesting tele than this one.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

And the machine winds 10,000 pick-ups with 2000 winds and they are exactly the same.....right down to the sound. Same as a hand wound pick-up using exactly the same materials. And the machine can make a lot more pick ups in the same time as it takes one person to hand wind one. But, change the wire or the magnets or the amount of windings and you'll have a pick up that sounds different, and that could be worth the price. Yes, mass produced, machine made is ok; hand crafted is better.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Electraglide said:


> And the machine winds 10,000 pick-ups with 2000 winds and they are exactly the same.....right down to the sound. Same as a hand wound pick-up using exactly the same materials. And the machine can make a lot more pick ups in the same time as it takes one person to hand wind one. But, change the wire or the magnets or the amount of windings and you'll have a pick up that sounds different, and that could be worth the price. Yes, mass produced, machine made is ok; hand crafted is better.


Then, you simply change the same thing on the winder and you end up with the same thing. The only thing that is different between winding pickups by hand or with a machine is that it takes a lot longer by hand and they cost more. You can do anything with the machine that you can do by hand. We discussed this earlier. See post #45.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> I may be wrong but I don't think CNC machines are used to wind coils but rather just a winding machine. (See video below)
> 
> Now, are you telling us that 2000 turns on a pickup done by hand will sound different than 2000 turns on a pickup done by a machine? If you are, I would have a hard time believing this given they were wound the same. But the machine can be set up to wind in any configuration and do it over and over again in the same exact pattern. Regards, Steadfastly
> 
> [video=youtube;fZyDzfw_Rvc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZyDzfw_Rvc[/video]


Despite that fact the best pickups are still hand wound. The best guitars are still handmade. It's not an accident. To get it perfect with a machine you have to be able to give it all the information required and it would appear it hasn't been done yet. With pickups I presume it's some inconsistency that makes for a better pickup. With a guitar it's the ability to tune the wood and get the sort of playability that custom instruments can get; it would mean programming the machine for each guitar which would cost more then having a skilled luthier do it ranyway. 

I wan't suggesting CNC machines were used for pickups although I see how my post could be read that way.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

If you're winding one or two pickups at a time then it should be fairly easy to change the machine. Change the jigs, wire guides etc.. Takes longer and costs more to change a machine that will wind say a few hundred pick ups at a time. But if your only making a few pick ups at a time, then you're costs are higher because the cost of your materials among other things is higher. Oh, and if we're talking about a craftsman holding a jig with the plate and magnets in one hand and the wire in the other and actually winding the pick up, then his 2000 wind pick up might sound different than a machine wound one. A machine will give you smooth equal windings. A few more winds here and a few less there should affect the way the pick up acts. Not too sure but it does affect the way crystal radios, am radio antennas and electro magnets react. And yes, you can change the machine to do that but then you're custom making pick ups which will cost more. But to get back to the original thread for a minute, I'm actually in the market for a non Fender Tele Thin-line. Pre 1980's if possible. There,s some nice ones here, including the one in post #47. Who made it Steadfastly.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Umm, I think I might have made a small mistake in terminology and should probably have watched the video first. When you said "machine made" I thought you were talking about a large machine that made a lot of pick ups at one time. Interesting machine tho. Probably cost a few hundred dollars to make and is possibly similar to what a lot of custom pick up makers use. But then again, I could be wrong in the terminology again. Makes one p-up at a time, can be manually adjusted as it turns...including holding your finger against the wire to change the configuration of the windings....needs to be manually set up for each p-up, probably can only make 4 or 5 p-ups an hour and needs constant supervision. And only does the windings. I'd say that that could be considered the start of a hand-made pick up. Interesting machine tho. Aside from the wind counter I might be able to make something similar with what I have kicking around here.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

Costs are higher for quality hand made instruments and no one will argue that. There is also an argument to be made that in certain music the signal source only needs to be good enough. We see a $2000 dollar guitar put through a $10k rack and $20k worth of amps. On the other hand Segovia likely played an instrument that cost $40k.

By comparison, Clapton built a Frankenguitar and had Fender match it's neck then supply him with an apparently endless stream of Sig models to play. That's one way to get a great supply of necks you like. His current crop have the noiseless pickups which I don't like but the original was hand wound (explains the $1M price tag ). His amps are hand made however and designed to his specification. His acoustics have hand wound pickups.

It is what it is. Yes, I presume no-one truly hand winds pickups except hobbyists much like hand built instruments are built with a lot of machines (but hey Stradivarius built entirely by hand and look how his have stood the test of time). Point to point wiring in hand wired amp is a thing of beauty. By moving the wires you can adjust the tone of the amp and electrocute yourself. I figure the hand wound pickups (using a machine ) have something of the same working for them.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

In 18 years I've spent a helluva pile of dough on gear. Tens of thousands. I bought a Squier Classic Vibe Strat this year that's within 1%, pickups included, of the most expensive $3000 Strat I ever owned. My kid picks up and plays my cheap Gibson unfinished $800 Les Paul 99% of the time because it sounds way better than his $2500 USA model. I've reached the point of, instead of starting out from the point of, saying 'horsehockey' ('BS' for you old skoolers). It's in the hands of the player, who can make an ugly guitar sound purdy. I'm no pro but I've been at many gigs where an old Squier + a Peavey C30 or C50 sounds like angels from heaven.

Then again, I'm bombed on New Year's bubbly as I write this


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## Hammertone (Feb 3, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> It would be hard to find a more interesting tele than this one.


A Lindert tele body with a Fender neck is interesting. It would be more interesting with the original Lindert neck - his "thumb's up" headstock is even funnier than Tyler's.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

al3d said:


> Actually..you could'nt be more wrong right there.


Alain, I missed you. 

Don't you build guitars made from parts made by Allparts and Warmoth? It's not like you choose the particular boards the parts come from and they are using CNC.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Alain, I missed you.
> 
> Don't you build guitars made from parts made by Allparts and Warmoth? It's not like you choose the particular boards the parts come from and they are using CNC.


I don't use allpart..are you nuts?...LOL...those a indonasian made..and with the cheapest wood. And no warmoth either. i only use Musikraft, and i do actually can choose my wood. I have nothing against CNC by the way..


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Aren't we talking Teles here ?.... a guitar designed to be built in a factory of semi skilled workers? It also ended up being lowest cost model of Fender catalouge. No doubt it's lower price drove it's popularity. 

CNC has allowed fast reproduction of the original design with consistent results. 

Here is a picture of my 66' on top of the Terry Downe's paper template CAD Camera off of another 66" tele... 

Bit different huh


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## georgemg (Jul 17, 2011)

I've always liked Tom Anderson guitars. All of the ones I've tried have sounded great. They aren't in my price range at this time, but hopefully one day!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Electraglide said:


> If you're winding one or two pickups at a time then it should be fairly easy to change the machine. Change the jigs, wire guides etc.. Takes longer and costs more to change a machine that will wind say a few hundred pick ups at a time. But if your only making a few pick ups at a time, then you're costs are higher because the cost of your materials among other things is higher. Oh, and if we're talking about a craftsman holding a jig with the plate and magnets in one hand and the wire in the other and actually winding the pick up, then his 2000 wind pick up might sound different than a machine wound one. A machine will give you smooth equal windings. A few more winds here and a few less there should affect the way the pick up acts. Not too sure but it does affect the way crystal radios, am radio antennas and electro magnets react. And yes, you can change the machine to do that but then you're custom making pick ups which will cost more. But to get back to the original thread for a minute, I'm actually in the market for a non Fender Tele Thin-line. Pre 1980's if possible. There,s some nice ones here, including_* the one in post #47. Who made it Steadfastly.*_


I'm sorry, EG, I don't know about this one. I just saw it in another forum and thought it looked interesting. There was no name or information in the other post either. However, the neck, at least, is a Fender from what I can read.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

Hammertone said:


> A Lindert tele body with a Fender neck is interesting. It would be more interesting with the original Lindert neck - his "thumb's up" headstock is even funnier than Tyler's.


I had to look that up! In case anyone else is curious: http://lindert.vintageusaguitars.com/


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not trying to be, or never was a tone or gear snob.
I've never been one to spend, or want to spend tons of cash on a guitar. 
I couldn't justify spending over say two grand on any guitar, new or used.
If I were a pro making a living with the instrument, it might be different.
Also, if a guy wants to buy an inexpensive guitar and is happy with it, that's all that matters.

This kind of went off on a tangent about winding pickups. Which is only one aspect of a custom build.

I think what I was driving at was that you can spec out the whole guitar, to your liking.
Furthermore, a Canadian builder, that doesn't charge gobs of money to custom build, is fantastic.

If I want a Tele with a belly cut, arm taper, choice of radius and thickness on the neck.
Choice of woods, pickups, hardware, colour, finish, etc., you're not buying that off the wall at a music store.
How much would that cost you from Fender? Lots o' dough.

Nothing against guys that have custom shop Fenders either, it's their choice.
I own a MIM Fender, btw. It had to go back to the shop after I recieved it to repair some issues. 
It wasn't a "cheap" guitar either. You shouldn't have this problem with a custom build.

My original point was, if I'm going for another T type, or even an S type, 
it'll come from Bill for the reasons stated above, and I won't have to sell a kidney.

Sorry for the long post, I just thought that I should clarify a bit.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

IMO, best bang for the buck: today's mass produced gearPotential to be the best overall: handmade. *caveat* also, potential to be the worst. Humans have greater chance to have bad days, be distracted, not care etc than machines. Machines have pretty good days, everyday I care more about a company's quality control processes than whether or not something was wound by hand or machine.Being hand wound isn't a great thing, esp if those hands are paid only slightly more than minimum wage, and never have time to actually test, listen, play, the results of their work.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

> Machines have pretty good days, everyday


Not so..... a machine is as good as it's mechanic. And even then... the closer to a deadline, the more a machine want's a day off or a new part.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Back to the old "CNC is bad - made by hand is better" argument, it seems obvious to me (as someone who programs cnc's and has 35 years in the millwork industry) that if you believe making a guitar on a cnc is bad and that making one with a Hitachi router with a template is better, you have no idea what you're talking about - that's why the comments denouncing cnc machining are never backed up with any quantifiable reasons.

In terms of machining parts the cnc is light years ahead of any other method and the end result is better in every possible way.

PS, cnc machining centers do not have bad days but they do occasionally take a day off.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

Jimmy_D said:


> Back to the old "CNC is bad - made by hand is better" argument, it seems obvious to me (as someone who programs cnc's and has 35 years in the millwork industry) that if you believe making a guitar on a cnc is bad and that making one with a Hitachi router with a template is better, you have no idea what you're talking about - that's why the comments denouncing cnc machining are never backed up with any quantifiable reasons.
> 
> In terms of machining parts the cnc is light years ahead of any other method and the end result is better in every possible way.
> 
> PS, cnc machining centers do not have bad days but they do occasionally take a day off.


Results are better in every way? Not if your building fine instruments. Every piece of wood has to be tuned; an expert luthier isn't just producing a shape they are creating tuned resonance. You may be able to perfectly machine parts that fit but that's a long way from building a great instrument.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

hummingway said:


> Results are better in every way? Not if your building fine instruments. Every piece of wood has to be tuned; an expert luthier isn't just producing a shape they are creating tuned resonance. You may be able to perfectly machine parts that fit but that's a long way from building a great instrument.


Quantify something, anything, then you'd have a shot at making a point. 

Define "tuned resonance" and how it's ill effected by cnc machining, then we'll have something to discuss.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I don't know if there's any argument about CNCing anything, at least not from me.
Half of us here probably wouldn't have an instrument if everything had to be made by hand.
Maybe all but one of my guitars have been made that way.

My point that I tried to make, after adding my opinion on a guitar maker in this thread,
is that it is a "reasonably" priced custom made guitar. Reasonable is a relitive term.
I find it a good deal compared to other small builders and the big boys custom shops.

Now let's see some more Teles!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Yes, let's get back to posting some nice tele's. Some people won't change their mind despite the evidence anyway and that may be because of how the butter gets put on their table.

Here's another nice tele. Note the different pickup arrangement on this one.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Does anyone know if K-Line has a Canadian distributor yet?

http://www.k-lineguitars.com/theguitars_truxton.php

I'd like to try one of these also...

http://www.larrivee.com/instruments/electrics/bakersfield/bakersfieldspecs.php


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

Jimmy_D said:


> Quantify something, anything, then you'd have a shot at making a point.
> 
> Define "tuned resonance" and how it's ill effected by cnc machining, then we'll have something to discuss.


Have you ever been in the shop when a skilled luthier is making an instrument? With the top instruments they spend as much time select the wood as they do machine it. As they work the wood they are testing the resonance of the wood. They tune it by removing wood in certain areas to improve the harmonic frequencies. The discussion of what affects the tone of a guitar like a Telecaster is better left for elsewhere but there are things that a master builder does on an instrument by instrument basis to improve the tone. 

Your argument would be more convincing if you were able to point to the CNC manufactured guitars that are considered amongst the worlds best instruments. Where is the factory popping out a thousand guitars a day at the $30,000 price tag some of Ron Wickersham's instruments are rumoured to fetch?


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

> The discussion of what affects the tone of a guitar like a Telecaster is better left for elsewhere


Ya a discussion about that in a Telecaster thread is not appropriate.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

shoretyus said:


> Ya a discussion about that in a Telecaster thread is not appropriate.


Ok. 

I believe one piece bodies resonate more freely. Freddy Tavares claimed that when the truss rod was accessed from the headstock on strats it reduced the resonance of the middle strings. I know that loose truss rods can rattle so the preparation of the truss rod channel is important. A tight neck pocket and well secured neck. These are all things that a CNC machine can do a superior job of. Shielding and wiring are areas where the tone and overall sound can be affected. A dense nut, bridge and tight ferrules are important.

Tuning the body and neck becomes a different story though. The traditional methods of tap tuning are being used by some builders and this is where wood is removed from specific areas of a body and neck to improve the tone. It's a real joy to watch someone who builds archtops carving the top with a scorp as they carefully tune it but it isn't just for archtops and violins. There are guys doing it with Tele style guitars as well though I can't say I've watched to see how they are removing the wood and from where.


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

hummingway said:


> Ok.
> 
> The traditional methods of tap tuning are being used by some builders and this is where wood is removed from specific areas of a body and neck to improve the tone.
> 
> There are guys doing it with Tele style guitars as well though I can't say I've watched to see how they are removing the wood and from where.


 
My gut feeling on this is that we are entering the realm of the ridiculous when tap tuning and Telecaster tone are mentioned in the same sentence. That's just a feeling I have though. I'd like to look into this further for my own curiosity - Would you be so kind as to supply the names of some builders who are employing this technique?


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i would most whole heartedly concur with the notion of that level of tuning being entirely ludicrous when speaking not just of a tele, but ANY electric guitar. no one will care down at the corner bar if you play "mustang sally" with a squire or one-off custom. literally no one. in fact, i would go so far as to bet a hundred bucks that at least 49 out of 50 random people, _are completely unable to hear the difference between the two, all other things being equal. 

_in m mind, the sort of thinking that we are talking about here is what perpetuates myths that cost the end user money. 
it's not like foreigner's "jukebox hero" where a magical guitar will make you suddenly turn into a rock star. it's just wood and metal and plastic and some paint. go buy a kit from carvin and see for yourself. you can get a pretty nice guitar as a kit, for fairly cheap.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

i'M totally with Jimmy_D here. CNC are'nt evil....The how thing about luthiers choosing their wood as nothing to do with doing a Body by hand or by CNC. When the luthier of CNC guy get it's wood, they will both try to maximise the wood, taking it's best parts. you'll either get a large one piece blank piece of say Mahogany, or a 2 pieces blank, NOT to much room to work with anyway. I know a few guys still doing it by hand...and their biggest dream is to get a small CNC machine really. I read in a former post something like.."removing some parts of the wood to perfect the resonance"...huh I really don't see how even a luthier would do that!...you have a blank..and you'll fit your template on it..for either neck or body. U can start by checking a blank's resonance..but once you start cutting, be it with CNC or a hand tool, the result, tone wise, will be the same, except the CNC carved instrument will be 200% more precise then the hand made one...specially when speaking about a neck. 

With a CNC..you can have a very specific neck shape and profile that can be reproduce perfectly over and over...when you look at old fenders for exemple...the necks were all over the place profile wise and size wise. Gibson was a bit more on the money doh. 

Now WOOD selection is a lot more important then how it's cut. in asia...for cheap stuff, they get boat load of really ordinary maple and such and just cut it..as long has it does'nt have holes or nuts in them...they are "go" for necks and such. In a place like Gibson or PRS more specially...they have whole departments of folks just managing the wood....that tells ya a lot.

Not saying a Hand Built guitar can't be an insanely good instrument....it can be. But i would trust a perfectly tuned CNC over any hand in the world to reproduced a specific body or neck for an instrument...first, it can be done in an afternoon..so not to have to wait 1 month is good...


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

> It's a real joy to watch someone who builds archtops carving the top with a scorp as they carefully tune it but it isn't just for archtops and violins.


I get that part and understand what you trying to point out but don't think that applies to a Tele. 



> There are guys doing it with Tele style guitars as well though I can't say I've watched to see how they are removing the wood and from where.


I think that most are doing body cuts for comfort only and hollowing for weight reduction.... I own a 66' and totally understand the quest for a lighter body 



> I believe one piece bodies resonate more freely


I have never play or built a one piece Tele body. Being a long time woodworker I do find it a stretch to find a difference. Yes there is a difference between types of wood used. There also is a difference between hollow and solid. I don't find it huge but it is there. 



> A dense nut


 agreed



> bridge and tight ferrules are important.


That I don't buy. I put a cheap $20 copy bridge on my 66' and noticed no difference. Ferrules I also have a hard time with. The favourite of my builds ( the cedar one posted here ) is top loaded. I have the option of top loading one have here but I doubt you could tell the difference if I recorded it. 

A loose truss rod ... yes it will rattle. A heel exiting truss rod compared to a headstock rod... first I have heard of that. It's a total pain in the a$$ to pull a neck off a body to adjust a truss rod. 

Shielding cavities... probably, but I have felt the need to. 

I think that we can all agree that it does take skill to properly install a neck and setup the bridge. A lousy job can ruin any guitar.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

> Now WOOD selection is a lot more important then how it's cut. in asia...for cheap stuff, they get boat load of really ordinary maple and such and just cut it..as long has it does'nt have holes or nuts in them...they are "go" for necks and such. In a place like Gibson or PRS more specially...they have whole departments of folks just managing the wood....that tells ya a lot.


I think that Fender probably had control over their kilning process, or at least monitored it closely. The original selection of Ash and maple I suspect had more to do with price and building a hard enough product to out live the warranty. Weren't the first prototypes out of Pine? 

The neck design was all about saving money. Changing the truss rods around like they have were about making them work better.


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

hummingway said:


> Where is the factory popping out a thousand guitars a day at the $30,000 price tag some of Ron Wickersham's instruments are rumoured to fetch?


Ron Wickersham was very fortunate when Jerry Garcia chose to use an Alembic guitar because he had it custom built with a myriad of switching options. Otherwise, Alembics probably would not be around today as they were "unpopular at the time due to their very harsh bright tone". ( That's a quote from one of my guitar books)


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

I always thought that Jerry's tone with that guitar .. sucked....for a lack of better word. He got great tone on out of a Martin.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

First, I didn’t raise the topic of CNC in this thread, I just responded when I saw people who have nothing to base their opinion on making statements that have no basis in reality and who obviously don’t know anything about the world of cnc.
Second, I have nothing to prove as my bread gets buttered in many ways, not just by programming a cnc. Comments about cnc machining that are based on air have been made and I suggested they’re wrong – the proof they’re wrong comes in the fact that nobody has offered even a single word of informed commentary to the contrary.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> i would most whole heartedly concur with the notion of that level of tuning being entirely ludicrous when speaking not just of a tele, but ANY electric guitar. no one will care down at the corner bar if you play "mustang sally" with a squire or one-off custom. literally no one. in fact, i would go so far as to bet a hundred bucks that at least 49 out of 50 random people, _are completely unable to hear the difference between the two, all other things being equal.
> 
> _in m mind, the sort of thinking that we are talking about here is what perpetuates myths that cost the end user money.
> it's not like foreigner's "jukebox hero" where a magical guitar will make you suddenly turn into a rock star. it's just wood and metal and plastic and some paint.


Add to this that in relative terms, the wood of the guitar, especially on an electric is not even close to being the major source of sound. First comes the amp or speakers and then the amp, pedals/effects unit, then the pickups, tone controls, neck and then the bridge of body. 

Then the overall difference between one piece of wood and the next piece of wood in overall tonal *difference *is minuscule. And will the tone be better or worse? That depends on each individual person. And when a person has overpaid for anything, including a guitar, they will almost always be the last one to admit that it's not much superior to the one that cost 1/4 or less than their custom one. Regards, Steadfastly


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

shoretyus said:


> I always thought that Jerry's tone with that guitar .. sucked....for a lack of better word. He got great tone on out of a Martin.


I liked Jerry's playing but never liked his recorded tone but I didn't like it even when he played a strat through a twin. I only saw him live once but can say his live tone was a different experience; Wickersham built that one a long time ago. 40 years? I'm guessing given the price he gets his guitars are more then just a fancy preamp. You see more Alembic basses around then guitars, or I have anyway. 

Whether there is much you can do to the construction of a tele to improve its tone is a always going to be open to interpretation and the persons ear. Also whether you care or not, as some have mentioned. I've heard all kinds of discussions take place from finish materials to chambers and caps and their effect on tone. In my experience you can outfit a tele like a strat and it still won't sound like a strat which makes me think the body and neck must be influencing the tone to a significant degree. A long time ago I had both and acoustic and an electric that I removed the finish from and oiled. While the the oil was fresh and through the drying period the both guitars would sound soggy. It was most noticeable with the acoustic though. Some people believe a finish that breaths gives a better tone and ages better then one that completely seals the wood. I doubt anyone who has played much is going to argue that wood choice makes a big difference to tone. Build a tele out of mahogany and it will be dark, swamp ash will be airy, alder gives a denser tone, maple is bright; cap mahogany with a .25 inches of maple and you can brighten it up. Does anyone think all teles coming off the same machine of the same wood have equivalant tone? If one piece of the same species wood can sound different from another why do you think adjusting the resonance of the wood doesn't affect the tone?

None of this argues against "good enough". I've got no problem with the idea of the tele as a slab. I've owned a lot of them. The two electrics I play the most right now are Fender factory jobs. It was my dissatisfaction with the strat I was playing that sent me looking for something else, at a time when I was making a good money, and the irony is I'm playing that same strat more then anything but I'm also looking for more. When a guy like Van **** Parks chooses a De Temple instrument I doubt it's because he's been sold a bill of goods and has $5k burning a hole in his pocket. Jim Triggs is a pretty popular luthier who has very reasonable prices and is said to tap tune. I'd be surprised if Rick Turner doesn't tap tune but he doesn't do a tele that I'm aware of.

Here are five guys who do make great teles: http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2009/Jan/5_Tele_Style_Builders_You_Should_Know.aspx?Page=1

It's a good article and they even mention a couple of things they do to make their product sound better though tap tuning isn't mentioned. Check out the finish on the guitar Brad Crook is holding!


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## starjag (Jan 30, 2008)

hummingway said:


> Here are five guys who do make great teles: http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2009/Jan/5_Tele_Style_Builders_You_Should_Know.aspx?Page=1
> 
> It's a good article and they even mention a couple of things they do to make their product sound better though tap tuning isn't mentioned. Check out the finish on the guitar Brad Crook is holding!


Big fan of Ron's work!


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazi...le_Style_Builders_You_Should_Know.aspx?Page=1


> It's a good article and they even mention a couple of things they do to make their product sound better though tap tuning isn't mentioned. Check out the finish on the guitar Brad Crook is holding!


No it isn't mentioned. Of the 5 builders two mention using old growth wood. That I can relate to. Two are using anchors for the neck. An improvement .. rocket science no. A change in the neck radius .. a good thing as Martha would say. 

Don't get me wrong I have seen these guys on the Tele forum and I have nothing against them. All these builders got started as the vintage market started to take off. They have established their reputations before CNC really took off. They all have perfected their ability to handle a spray gun. Right time , right place. With the number of backyard CNC machines around I doubt if would be the same story today. 

But they haven't reinvented the wheel. Which kind of speaks to the original design. 


Google Jay Montrose and you may come up with another opinion and the infamous " thread " 

Sorry I am ranting a little..... but I am lucky enough to have the ability to do one from scratch myself so a customer I am not.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I like the comment that Jay Montrose of Vintique Guitars makes about "handwound" pickups. Notice below than he says they are done on a winding "machine". That kind of misleading language is just spinning a tale. It shows a lack of integrity and I would never buy anything from someone with that attitude.

*What kind of pickups are you using in the 5394?
*
The two basic options available are the “vintage- style” handwound single coils _*spun on Danny Gatton’s homemade pickup winding machine*_ that he had wound on since 1967.​


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> I like the comment that Jay Montrose of Vintique Guitars makes about "handwound" pickups. Notice below than he says they are done on a winding "machine". That kind of misleading language is just spinning a tale. It shows a lack of integrity and I would never buy anything from someone with that attitude.
> 
> *What kind of pickups are you using in the 5394?
> *
> The two basic options available are the “vintage- style” handwound single coils _*spun on Danny Gatton’s homemade pickup winding machine*_ that he had wound on since 1967.​


It is a common idiom. Hand made instruments are usually built with quite a bit of hand work. A better reason to not buy from him would be the that he seems to be a thief!


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

Is Jay Montrose totally full of himself or what? 

Some quotes...

"Others have tried and failed to match my quality of craft or tone, but it all starts in my hands"

"Mass producers can’t do it my way. The handmade quality comes from being a true craftsman and artist. I have total command of my skills and tools. Most guitar guys don’t have the same expertise, knowledge and creative ideas. The ones that do can’t execute it in the same way. We’re all unique in our talents; I happen to be a player and a builder. I’ve never understood builders who can’t play on a professional level or push the envelope of their designs." 

I get why he doesn't understand other builders - he suffers from narcissistic personality disorder! He can't understand anything but himself!


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

This article from GP reviews one of the guitars listed in the five above. Especially interesting is the last paragraph describing a comparison of the Hahn with the testers '57 Tele, and his comments about neck fit and wood density, and playability. I found it very interesting when I first read it, and it may be relevant to the discussion at hand. http://www.hahnguitars.com/page3/page3.html


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

hummingway said:


> It is a common idiom. Hand made instruments are usually built with quite a bit of hand work. A better reason to not buy from him would be the that he seems to be a thief!


Yes, I understand. He would have to hook up the wire and turn on the switch by hand.


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> Yes, I understand. He would have to hook up the wire and turn on the switch by hand.


 And control the flow of wire onto the bobbin, at least as I understand it; the machine controls the flow of wire but a person needs to guide the wire onto the bobbin unless you've seen his machine in operation and know otherwise?


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

washburned said:


> This article from GP reviews one of the guitars listed in the five above. Especially interesting is the last paragraph describing a comparison of the Hahn with the testers '57 Tele, and his comments about neck fit and wood density, and playability. I found it very interesting when I first read it, and it may be relevant to the discussion at hand. http://www.hahnguitars.com/page3/page3.html


DeTemple gets mentioned down the page as "quite possibly the best damned Strat-style made today". These guys are doing something to get through to folks. Are they worth the money and the wait? I guess that's a personal choice.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Back on track ... 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/neverslim/2366477469/in/photostream/


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## hummingway (Aug 4, 2011)

shoretyus said:


> Back on track ...
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/neverslim/2366477469/in/photostream/


Here it is in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Apx_bASwlWM&feature=related


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## jetavana (Feb 2, 2010)

I like the SX Furrian-Alder Body, they feel like they could take a major snot kicking and still purr like a kitten on Ritalin.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

shoretyus said:


> Back on track ...
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/neverslim/2366477469/in/photostream/












Wow, that is real nice. I have a Dean Boca with a very similar top, but the tele seems a little brighter in the pic, which I like. Also, the 3 P-90's are interesting. I think that's the first one I saw with that combination. It looks like they tried to match the headstock with the body making another nice touch. I'd rate this one at a 9.5 out of 10 for looks.


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

These are the nicest boutique Telecasters that I've had the chance to see:

http://www.hahnguitars.com/


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

pattste said:


> These are the nicest boutique Telecasters that I've had the chance to see:
> 
> http://www.hahnguitars.com/


There are some pretty heavy hitters using those suckers!


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## theroan (Oct 7, 2008)

Morgan or Suhr


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

pattste said:


> These are the nicest boutique Telecasters that I've had the chance to see:
> 
> http://www.hahnguitars.com/


I'm getting dizzy
http://www.hahnguitars.com/page13/files/page13-1011-full.jpg


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

hummingway said:


> And control the flow of wire onto the bobbin, at least as I understand it; the machine controls the flow of wire but a person needs to guide the wire onto the bobbin unless you've seen his machine in operation and know otherwise?


Machines now do this as well. There is no way a human would do this exactly the same way every time anyway.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Ooops, sorry about that . Didn't notice the word "non Fender". Anyway it's Korean. Maybe that qualifies.

After I bought my American Standard I came across this Special Edition at GC used for $320 out the door. Duncan alnico II pups, birdseye maple neck, koa top, mother of pearl fretboard dots. Swapped out the pick guard and put a Gotoh modern bridge on it. I hardly play the American Standard anymore.


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

BEACHBUM said:


> Ooops, sorry about that . Didn't notice the word "non Fender". Anyway it's Korean. Maybe that qualifies.


That's a great looking tele - love the Koa top on that one


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

BEACHBUM said:


> Ooops, sorry about that . Didn't notice the word "non Fender". Anyway it's Korean. Maybe that qualifies.
> 
> After I bought my American Standard I came across this Special Edition at GC used for $320 out the door. Duncan alnico II pups, birdseye maple neck, koa top, mother of pearl fretboard dots. Swapped out the pick guard and put a Gotoh modern bridge on it. I hardly play the American Standard anymore.


BB: That's very nice!


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I owned a U.S. Peavey Tele that was oustanding. The neck was 2-piece, split right down the middle,quite exceptional nonetheless.


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