# Getting schooled by Keef, Holly and others...



## Guest (Apr 21, 2008)

I thought it'd be fun, after 10 years or so of playing pretty much exclusively original material, to get into a cover band thing. Tried out for a mod-type cover band here in Ottawa. Audition was: Watching the Detectives, So Lonely and Jumping Jack Flash. I knew the first two already, the third one was easy enough but man...I cannot cop that Keef feel. Despite that the audition went well and the guys seem like very good players and nice guys to hang with so on to phase two: learn the first set.

Ack! I'm not going to say I'm god's gift to guitar players, but I'm a competent guitarist. Man, this stuff is kicking my butt. It's not hard music to play. It's not like it's screaming fast 1/128th note riffs. But the feel is, I find, just wicked tough to get right.

Take Buddy Holly's Not Fade Away. Simple chord progression, but I can't quite get the right jangle/strum thing happening. It's close, but not really quite right. And The Stone's Get Off My Cloud...ugh. Deadly slippery. I can't do that lose, echo-y thing.

If you're interested here's the set list: https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dftg82dp_4n9v8xdjh

Most of the second set, everything in the third set: no problem -- that's stuff I grew up and music I know well. But that early stuff, the "before I was born" rock, is kicking my butt. Anyone got any tips for channelling Keef or The Kinks?


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## mario (Feb 18, 2006)

As far as Keef is concerned, I would certainly learn how to play in G tuning. He played A LOT of classic Stones songs that way. Years ago, I played in a band that played quite a number of Stones tunes and I would have 1 guitar tuned that way. It is quite easy once you get it down. I once read a interview with him talking about it. LOL, he described it as 5 strings, 3 fingers and 1 asshole.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

i was just futzing around with street fighting man last night. the key there was downstrokes... lots of em. as mario says a lot of their tunes are in an open tuning (street fighting man's in open D). as paul says, with any R&B music (the stones certainly qualify), it's all down to the rhythm section.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

suttree said:


> with any R&B music (the stones certainly qualify), it's all down to the rhythm section.


and Keef is one of the best rhythm players around. I think it's hard to understand just how good until you try to recreate it. He smokes.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2008)

dwagar said:


> and Keef is one of the best rhythm players around. I think it's hard to understand just how good until you try to recreate it. He smokes.


I can definitely agree with this now. I'm not, never have been, never will be a big Stones fan but I have much respect for their abilities.



mario said:


> As far as Keef is concerned, I would certainly learn how to play in G tuning. He played A LOT of classic Stones songs that way. Years ago, I played in a band that played quite a number of Stones tunes and I would have 1 guitar tuned that way. It is quite easy once you get it down. I once read a interview with him talking about it. LOL, he described it as 5 strings, 3 fingers and 1 asshole.


Gah. I'm trying to avoid open tuning a guitar as there's only a few Stones tune on the list and everything else is standard tuning stuff. I'll try it though and see if it makes it any easier. I think though, it's not my tuning, but my feel and attitude.



Paul said:


> With songs like "Not Fade Away"....that's the Bo Diddley rhythm. If the drummer ain't got it, ain't nobody gonna get it. The trick is to get the rhythm in sync with everybody, with NO sense of rushing. A lot of times these songs end up like a runaway train.......


Oh, the drummer has got it. And it's tight. I've got the rhythm. But I haven't got the Buddy Holly feel. He's got some special, almost grace, notes in there that really make it a little more lively, less ho hum.



> Keef plays behind the beat a lot........he's not late, he's not slow, he's not dragging....but he's just enough behind that he gives the impression that the rest of the band has to wait for him before they all can go on. If you are just slightly late, no one will notice, if you are really behind the beat, the timing goes to shite,........Keef plays with an arrogant swagger that reminds the band that everything isn't said, until HE has his say. That's the difference between playing notes and playing music.


Yup, that really describes it: behind the beat. I've spent my life being an on-the-beat player. And there's no way you'd get arrogant swagger from me.

Thanks guys!


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

iaresee said:


> Gah. I'm trying to avoid open tuning a guitar as there's only a few Stones tune on the list and everything else is standard tuning stuff.
> Thanks guys!


We do one Stones song and one Black Crowes song in open G tuning. I just drop the A string down to G and leave the other strings in standard tuning. You then only have to dampen the high E string when banging out riffs (it sounds more difficult than it is). This also has the added advantage of leaving the top 4 strings (DGBE) in regular tuning for playing solos.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Which Stones' song do you thing gives a good example of Keef's off the beat playing?


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

bagpipe said:


> We do one Stones song and one Black Crowes song in open G tuning. I just drop the A string down to G and leave the other strings in standard tuning. You then only have to dampen the high E string when banging out riffs (it sounds more difficult than it is). This also has the added advantage of leaving the top 4 strings (DGBE) in regular tuning for playing solos.


Didn't Keef just string his axe with 5 strings at times (no low E)? Easier than damping it seems.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> Didn't Keef just string his axe with 5 strings at times (no low E)? Easier than damping it seems.


Yeah, I think maybe I confused everyone with my terminology. When I said dampen the "high E", I meant the thin E string - the one closest to the floor? You are correct that Keef removes the Low (thickest) E string, and then tunes the high E(thinest) to D. However, for me, its quicker and easier to use one guitar for everything, and then by dropping just the A string (I'm glad theres only one A string!) to G, I can play Stones tunes. AND, I can play still play solos, fills etc on the DGBE strings without having to think about different tunings.


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## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

A drummer friend told me years ago that there were three places to place a beat and still be on beat and that there was a distinct difference between American and British drummers. American drummers tend to hit behind the beat while British drummers hit on top or ahead of the beat. The Stones were trying to sound more like an American band than most other British bands. In fact, Jimmy Miller, an American producer who worked with the Stones, was concerned with getting a good groove happening and actually played drums on some of their recordings when Charlie Watts couldn't quite get the feel for the song.

If you grew up listening to the Police and Elvis Costello I can understand why you might have trouble with an R&B feel.

This is the reason I don't like click tracks and programmed drums, they can really kill the groove which is really dependant on feel.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

I never really rated Keef of the Stones for the longest time--it's just so engrained in our culture that it doesn't really sound as special as it is--then I had a go playing some for fun and you're absolutely right, the feeling, the timing is really hard. That behind the beat thing is spot on though, and once you get into it anything else sounds pedestrian (I played with a rock/metal band for a while in the 90s and it was all very much a 1-2-3-4-1-2-3-4 , and really boring). 
I wonder how much Keef actually thought about it, or whetehr it just happens for him...


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

playing the snare behind TDC (to use paul's excellent description) is also known as a "pocket", and when people say "in the pocket" they mean to be playing just behind the beat... the ultimate example of this would be bob marley and the wailers. 

the other end of the spectrum is a "push", and everything feels hastened slightly. the ultimate example of this is the police, especially "synchronicity live", by the end of each song they're going faster.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

I think this is a good thread to open up guys eyes that think solo guitar is all that matters. It isn't so flashy and glittery to the chick up front (well, unless you are Keef) but rhythm guitar is equally as important and equally as hard to play.


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## Guest (Apr 21, 2008)

dwagar said:


> I think this is a good thread to open up guys eyes that think solo guitar is all that matters. It isn't so flashy and glittery to the chick up front (well, unless you are Keef) but rhythm guitar is equally as important and equally as hard to play.


My personal approach when learning covers is to focus on the rhythm. I don't sweat about coping solos note for note, but I do worry about getting the rhythm and feel just right.


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## mario (Feb 18, 2006)

iaresee said:


> Gah. I'm trying to avoid open tuning a guitar as there's only a few Stones tune on the list and everything else is standard tuning stuff. I'll try it though and see if it makes it any easier. I think though, it's not my tuning, but my feel and attitude.


Really...give it a try. It is not as hard as you might think. Once you get a couple of their songs under your belt that call for it, there is no turning back. I seem to remember you having a Les Paul Special or Junior...PERFECT!


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

mario said:


> Really...give it a try. It is not as hard as you might think. Once you get a couple of their songs under your belt that call for it, there is no turning back. I seem to remember you having a Les Paul Special or Junior...PERFECT!


I spent ages rattling through Led Zeppelin pieces that were almost impossible to play in standard tuning (Rain Song anybody) until a friend showed me D-G-C-G-C-D.


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2008)

mario said:


> Really...give it a try. It is not as hard as you might think. Once you get a couple of their songs under your belt that call for it, there is no turning back. I seem to remember you having a Les Paul Special or Junior...PERFECT!


Yup. There's an LPS sitting the closet that might need to come out and play. I tend to rely heavily on my PRS. Time to break that perhaps. So for the following songs:

Get Off My Cloud
Paint It Black
Sympathy For The Devil
Lets Spend The Night Together
Jumping Jack Flash

What would you recommend? Open G (DGDBD)?


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## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

iaresee said:


> Yup. There's an LPS sitting the closet that might need to come out and play. I tend to rely heavily on my PRS. Time to break that perhaps. So for the following songs:
> 
> Get Off My Cloud
> Paint It Black
> ...


Just to confuse you, most of those tunes are early songs before he started using open tunings.

Keith's words on Jumpin Jack Flash:

"I used a Gibson Hummingbird acoustic tuned to open D, six string. Open D or open E, which is the same thing - same intervals - but it would be slackened down some for D. Then there was a capo on it, to get that really tight sound. And there was another guitar over the top of that, but tuned to Nashville tuning. I learned that from somebody in George Jones' band in San Antonio in 1964. The high-strung guitar was an acoustic, too. Both acoustics were put through a Philips cassette recorder. Just jam the mic right in the guitar and play it back through an extension speaker."


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## Guest (Apr 22, 2008)

Lester B. Flat said:


> Just to confuse you, most of those tunes are early songs before he started using open tunings.
> 
> Keith's words on Jumpin Jack Flash:


I don't whether that's genius or a cruel joke! That was an audition song and when I sat down with Hot Rocks to learn it I spent a good 20 minutes curing them for playing with the tape speed like that. Bastards! It's slowed down so the recording is not quite 2 steps lower.


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## mario (Feb 18, 2006)

iaresee said:


> Yup. There's an LPS sitting the closet that might need to come out and play. I tend to rely heavily on my PRS. Time to break that perhaps. So for the following songs:
> 
> Get Off My Cloud
> Paint It Black
> ...


 Like Lester said, most of those songs are in standard tunings except Juming Jack Flash and Sympathy for the Devil. Sympathy for the Devil is played in G tuning. Good Luck!
EDIT: I know these are not on your set list, but some great examples of Keef playing in G tuning are Honky Tonk Woman, Brown Sugar, Can't You Hear Me Knockin' etc...


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## mario (Feb 18, 2006)

Paul said:


> Uhhhh, the only guitar on "Sympathy..." is the solo, and that is very achievable in standard tuning.


I stand corrected! I had the live version from "Get yer Ya Ya's" in my head. Sorry about that.


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