# PA? Powered sub? need opinions



## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

hey guys.

I currently jam with a few guys. we are strictly jamming for fun. no plans or desire to gig.

the set up:

guitar 1: 18 watt amp (this is mine, I run the volume around 3)
guitar 2: 40 watt amp
bass: 300 watt amp
drummer: not heavy handed, but not quiet as a mouse either
vocals: fender acoustic amp

the problem, the vocals are far too quiet, turning the volume up on the amp produces feedback like crazy.

a couple of the guys want to pitch in (which is not a problem) for a full size PA, but i'm thinking this is a little overkill?

would a powered speaker be the answer for the vocals? what size?

is there another solution?

Jam hub?

suggestions?

I have no issues throwing money at the problem, as long as it's a worthwhile and non-frivolous expenditure.

with the PA, I imagine everyone will need mics on their instrument as well, which would be an additional cost.


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## Noise Supply (May 31, 2013)

In my opinion a PA would be a good investment, because it's something you could use down the road as a band. To start, you don't have to go nuts and get the whole thing in one shot. I'm assuming you're going to get powered mains and powered monitors, and not deal with amps, probably avoid having a rack at all. You could honestly just get the mixing console, and one monitor for now, and then upgrade to get the mains and more monitor. Or you could be really frugal and just get a starter mixer (8,4, or even 2 channels), since all you need is a mic in it for now - then get one monitor for start. And if you get a vocal monitor, 2 mains, and you still have your little mixer, you can just run vocals and kick through the PA - you wouldn't need to run everything through it, unless you start doing some huge shows.

All that being said, you may want to invest in a couple monitors, or the two mains, or two mains and a monitor. That way you can set up the speakers around the room so people can hear it, rather than just trying to crank one speaker. Because your problem is feedback. The louder you run the speakers, the higher your risk of feedback. So spreading the vocals to various speakers close to where people are is better than volume.

Another good thing about having a board, even if it's a small starter board, is you have an EQ to try and dampen down frequencies that are likely to feed back in the space you guys are using. You can work your way up to a rack EQ someday which will give you even more control.

That acoustic amp isn't ideal because it's probably accentuating frequencies that sound great on acoustic, but feedback readily on voice. So you could try something else, but I would lean towards getting starting down a path towards a PA to get several monitors/speakers to spread the sound, and have some EQ control. But as I said, there are lots of options, and I think you can do it on the cheap and/or in stages.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

If you wanted to ease it it, some powered monitors have a mic input, so you could just get a couple of powered monitors and run your mics directly into them. If you have more mics than monitors, a small cheap mixer would be a simple solution.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

thanks for the input guys.

how many watts should we be looking at for the speakers/monitors?

would be 200 be sufficient?


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

We use a fender passport 300 in our jam space fortified with a couple of powered speakers for floor monitors. Works good enough, we've had pro musicians play the garage using the same PA and it sounded great. As long as you don't need a ton of inputs these are good value.

With 1000 bucks you could get a mixer and 4 powered speakers (2 for mains 2 for monitors) pretty easily these days.

FWIW I played out with just 2 mains and no monitors for many years, just subsisting on the leakage from the mains for vocal monitoring. I've also used just 1 powered speaker and the xlr in for a mic on an acoustic gig or two. There are many ways to skin this particular cat.


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

IMHO, Many bands start out this way as far as investing in a PA together but it's inevitable that a pair of 15" Speakers with horns on stands and a powered mixer is a good start if you want a live sound to really shape your sound as a band. There are many used rigs on CL and Kijiji for under $1000 that would be more than adequate for what you need. 

I currently own a "Jamhub Tourbus" and It's very effective for rehersals, and in turn, recording song formats to distribute to everyone. It's portable and convenient as a silent rehersal tool, particularly with an electronic drum kit. The cons are
if your drummer isn't used to a Ekit, or has to rent one, it's frustrating for him, as well as you cant get that "live sound" out of the Hub as far as your live Amps provide. It's mearly a tool for rehearsal as far as I'm concerned, Nothing more.


Just my 2 cents


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

mrmatt1972 said:


> We use a fender passport 300 in our jam space fortified with a couple of powered speakers for floor monitors. Works good enough, we've had pro musicians play the garage using the same PA and it sounded great. As long as you don't need a ton of inputs these are good value.
> 
> With 1000 bucks you could get a mixer and 4 powered speakers (2 for mains 2 for monitors) pretty easily these days.
> 
> FWIW I played out with just 2 mains and no monitors for many years, just subsisting on the leakage from the mains for vocal monitoring. I've also used just 1 powered speaker and the xlr in for a mic on an acoustic gig or two. There are many ways to skin this particular cat.


we are pretty low brow. we don't need the latest and greatest.... currently the vocals are through a fender acoustasonic and i really don't have an issue with it, but the other guitarist says he can't hear the vocals at all.

we have no issue (well, I don't and neither does the bassist) relying on leakage from the mains for hearing the vocals. I can't speak for the others. the vocalist seems to be indifferent on what happens with the set up.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

urko99 said:


> IMHO, Many bands start out this way as far as investing in a PA together but it's inevitable that a pair of 15" Speakers with horns on stands and a powered mixer is a good start if you want a live sound to really shape your sound as a band. There are many used rigs on CL and Kijiji for under $1000 that would be more than adequate for what you need.
> 
> I currently own a "Jamhub Tourbus" and It's very effective for rehersals, and in turn, recording song formats to distribute to everyone. It's portable and convenient as a silent rehersal tool, particularly with an electronic drum kit. The cons are
> if your drummer isn't used to a Ekit, or has to rent one, it's frustrating for him, as well as you cant get that "live sound" out of the Hub as far as your live Amps provide. It's mearly a tool for rehearsal as far as I'm concerned, Nothing more.
> ...


I am not thrilled about playing with headphones for 3 hours to be honest. I practice at home with phones but i'm sitting down and it drives me bonkers. the drummer does not have an e-kit either, though we have access to one (other guitarist has one)


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

I know. My Senheiser headphones are like a Vice on my head after a while.
Definetly another Con for the Jamhub.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

nkjanssen said:


> A small mixer and a couple of powered floor-wedge monitors (like Mackie SRM450's) should give you everything you need. You don't need mains if it's just for monitoring vocals at rehearsal. *You don't need to mic all the instruments. You should be getting plenty of volume already out of the amps and the drums.* Maybe get a mixer with some built-in effects so you can put a bit of reverb on the vox. A graphic EQ might be the next purchase, so you can ring the system out a bit and control feedback a bit better.
> 
> A good quality system like that shouldn't set you back more than about $1k.


that was my argument. other guitarist wants to experiment with miking his amp for his own learning experience. i personally have no desire to mic my amp unless I was gigging in a venue where my amp can't hold up. (so basically never)

my amp is already at a lower volume than I prefer, lowering it more only to mic it seems a little back assward


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

nkjanssen said:


> I guess as a learning experience, just to see what it sounds like miked... sure. But ultimately, it's called sound "reinforcement" for a reason. If it doesn't need reinforcing, don't reinforce it. I've played my fair share of actual gigs without the amps being miked. We definitely don't do it in rehearsal. The goal in rehearsal is often to figure out how to make volume levels as low as reasonably possible, not as loud as possible.


I am glad other people agree with me on this subject. I thought maybe he was seeing something I didn't.

having said that, we play pretty damn loud at our jams and the other guitarist has a Dr Z route 66 on the way. so we may be getting louder.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

nkjanssen said:


> How big is the rehearsal space? Having to crank the monitors in a small room to hear the vocals is inevitably going to give you feedback problems.


it's quite large. larger than most coffee shops....

there was a Winnebago in it, along side a full living room set and that was only half the space.... probably 1500 sq ft with 20' ceilings.


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## bootbun (Mar 5, 2013)

blam said:


> it's quite large. larger than most coffee shops....
> 
> there was a Winnebago in it, along side a full living room set and that was only half the space.... probably 1500 sq ft with 20' ceilings.


I just bought an Alto Truesonic TS112a powered monitor to run my Eleven Rack to, 800w, lightweight, can be put on its side or mounted in any way. I bought mine for $299 with free shipping from PAShop in London. Sounds like it could be a solution for you,


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

At the point you are in, you could get away with 1 powered 15in speaker that you will use to monitor the vocals and then get a mixer. Here is a sample of the speaker you could buy:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/harbinger-aps15-15-powered-pa-speaker

As for the mixer, you could go from something like this Behringer to anything that would handle 16 or more channels:

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Behringer-XENYX-1202FX-Mixer-103845061-i1153503.gc

This setup is far better than what you have right now and would be good enough for what you are doing. And that'll only set you back at around $400. Later on you can just get another 15in either rent it or buy it outright, to use as your mains if you need something to use for a gig. You can also add two powered 12in speakers and use that as monitors. You can also replace the mixer with something with more inputs and you won't have to feel bad about replacing this Behringer as it only set you back $110.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

well, the jam space owner stepped up and got a PA off kijiji.

he apparently has been wanting one for some time, but never bothered since he was not previously jamming with anyone.

works much better than the previous set up.

thanks all!


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

Blam, you don't say how many vocals you need to support.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

Just 1 lead. We have 2 spare mics hooked up too for random backup


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

So hows it sound now? 

IMO for a decently loud band at practice a PA is a must for vocals. Mine is a phonic 740 powered mixer 300w with 2 wharfdale 15's. been meaning to get monitors for some time but for jamming there is no need.

That said I practiced with a new band last week who played pretty quiet in a small room and I sang through a small allen and heath mixer to a powered monitor on a stand. It worked fine but in a larger room the spread of 2 speakers helps. 

And for jamming PA should be just for vocals maybe a kick drum mic if its a small kick drum.


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## robare99 (Jan 9, 2012)

Nice. I was going to suggest kijiji. 

I wouldn't bother mic'ing amps at this stage. Maaaaaaaybe mic the kick. 


Maybe.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

LOL, if you have to mic drums for a band rehearsal, somebody may be a bit too loud.

You definitely want as much power as you can afford (within reason) for vocals however.

Trying to rehearse a rock band with less than 400~800 watts of PA is not the most productive situation.

I picked up one of these for my rehearsals. This little head and a couble of wedges (1 X 12 w horn) makes a dandy practice PA and costs less than a good guitar.

http://yorkville.com/mixers/micromix/product/m810-2/


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

I think we are running 500 or 600 watts and its holding up ok. we play pretty loud. the drummer has a pillow in his kick.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

blam said:


> I think we are running 500 or 600 watts and its holding up ok. we play pretty loud. the drummer has a pillow in his kick.


That's reasonable. As long as you can clearly hear the vocals you're good.


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