# Are small builders really better?



## Cardamonfrost (Dec 12, 2018)

Saw this and it got me to thinking... For 8k I can buy a pretty fantastic Les Paul from Gibson that will have a (presumably) better resale value. Can it really be better? I gotta say, I love my R8..

Thoughts?

1959 Bobburst Les Paul Replica | Guitars | City of Toronto | Kijiji

C


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Depends entirely on the builder. For $8k it doesnt matter who made it, it better be to your exact specs IMO.


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## metallica86 (Aug 17, 2009)

Is it same guitar in our trade forum right now? Look exactly the same.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

I don't mind if the builder is over 5 feet tall !


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

I've owned a few small company guitars over the years and they were all good, but I wouldn't say better. I have a recent Fender CS Tele that I like better than the 2 boutique tele clones that I've owned. 

The R8s I've tried have been really good. I would just stick with that


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

That guitar is worth more than both of my cars. I am very poor.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Cardamonfrost said:


> Saw this and it got me to thinking... For 8k I can buy a pretty fantastic Les Paul from Gibson that will have a (presumably) better resale value. Can it really be better? I gotta say, I love my R8..
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> ...


They CAN be better, or worse. The small builders often have the liberty to do things that may not be feasible for a larger productions. 

For instance, old wood. Gibson couldn't feasibly procure enough century-old lumber to build 10,000+ guitars. However a small builder could, for the right price, build you a ES335 from a confirmed 10,000 year old slab of maple that Caesar bled out on.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

But you’d have to order it in March.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Cardamonfrost said:


> Saw this and it got me to thinking... For 8k I can buy a pretty fantastic Les Paul from Gibson that will have a (presumably) better resale value. Can it really be better? I gotta say, I love my R8..
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> ...


In a video by PRS guitars, their management said anything above about approximately $800.00 is bling. If you have any experience with manufacturing, you can understand why this is so. There are not that many parts to an electric guitar and only so many different parts as to quality are available. Also, those parts are all mass produced and very low costs.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

while that could be a fabulous guitar, if you are at all concerned with resale, I'd say stay away. You can always find someone to buy a Gibson, it's really hard to find someone to buy a replica.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

dwagar said:


> while that could be a fabulous guitar, if you are at all concerned with resale, I'd say stay away. You can always find someone to buy a Gibson, it's really hard to find someone to buy a replica.


Depends who did it. See: mylespaul forum.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Steadfastly said:


> In a video by PRS guitars, their management said anything above about approximately $800.00 is bling. If you have any experience with manufacturing, you can understand why this is so. There are not that many parts to an electric guitar and only so many different parts as to quality are available. Also, those parts are all mass produced and very low costs.


That $ figure aligns well with what my stripped down of all frills 2014 Les Paul LPJ went for when new. Flat no gloss finish, but the same parts that were used on some Classics and Traditionals that year.
No binding, cheaper neck wood (maple), multipiece body and almost no final finishing kept the costs down pretty far. I read one post on the web describing them as a kit, or an almost finished Studio. But they got the Plek treatment just like all others that year, and they play and sound pretty good.

I agree that for $8k I can buy 2 used CS Les Paul's, or 3 or 4 CS Strats. But it might get me one used Bartlett, when available.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Ditto on Budda's comment about the challenge of resale. There are some "small builders" that are known quantities, and others that may only be known locally, and even then only by a small number of folks.

As for quality and price, consider that a 1 or 2-person shop, unless it's someone who decided to build as a hobby in retirement and has a nice pension to depend on, needs to make all their overhead and living costs via sales. They don't have the luxury of having one guy to do the assembling, another to do the sanding, another to work the spray booth, another to do the fretwork, etc., so it takes a while to produce an instrument. And while it may take a while to get the guitar just right, car payments, mortgage/rent payments, insurance premiums, taxes, all tend to require being paid on a firm schedule, rather than "when it works best". So prices have to anticipate having enough liquid assets to content with that.

Small builders can certainly provide the same quality as big companies at their best.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Wow just noticed it's a full on copy headstock and inlay and all. There seems to be a market for these but I feel its based on knowing the builder extremely well, and that the builder is very well known in the right circles.


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## metallica86 (Aug 17, 2009)

It's saying Gibson on head stock, is it even legal? not sure, nice guitar though, but very curious if they are from real Gibson or not


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

"Builder Bob has an original Gibson winder and hand winds each pickup based on PAF winds."

Huh?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

colchar said:


> "Builder Bob has an original Gibson winder and hand winds each pickup based on PAF winds."
> 
> Huh?


I gather the "original Gibson winder" is a Leesona machine, which provided a certain degree of scatter winding from what I understand. As I also understood it, the winding process was not _entirely_ automated - the 1950's not having much in the way of micro-controllers - but may have required varying degrees of manual control; for example, controlling tension. Of course, the phrase "hand winds each pickup based on PAF winds" is not particularly precise or devoid of voodoo hand-waving for marketing purposes, so it gets a "Huh?" from me too.

I hand-wind my pickups as well. From first to last turn. Of course I'm not aiming for, or claiming, any particular standard. But if someone is able to replicate some particular desirable tone, consistently, and bring it in at a reasonable price, more power to 'em.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

metallica86 said:


> It's saying Gibson on head stock, is it even legal? not sure, nice guitar though, but very curious if they are from real Gibson or not


Doesnt Slash have "Gibson" les pauls that were actually ghost built?


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

This is the best type of winders on the market ! 


Tested and certified !!!


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## MarkusV (Sep 24, 2009)

mhammer said:


> I gather the "original Gibson winder" is a Leesona machine, which provided a certain degree of scatter winding from what I understand. As I also understood it, the winding process was not _entirely_ automated - the 1950's not having much in the way of micro-controllers - but may have required varying degrees of manual control; for example, controlling tension. Of course, the phrase "hand winds each pickup based on PAF winds" is not particularly precise or devoid of voodoo hand-waving for marketing purposes, so it gets a "Huh?" from me too.
> 
> I hand-wind my pickups as well. From first to last turn. Of course I'm not aiming for, or claiming, any particular standard. But if someone is able to replicate some particular desirable tone, consistently, and bring it in at a reasonable price, more power to 'em.




I am in the slow process of building (with the help of a tech and engineering wizard) a winder with tweakable micro controls for scatter winds, tension and so forth. Will keep y'all updated as we progress. There is a lot of snake oil in this game.
PAF's were somewhat inconsistent - Leesona or not. So winding on that machine guarantees the same inconsistencies as PAF's displayed way back and that's that. Unless he includes new refinements. Well then- the Leesona machine is cachet- not the true differentiator.

IMHO
(puts on flame suit and runs like a little girl)

Markus


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Budda said:


> Doesnt Slash have "Gibson" les pauls that were actually ghost built?



Yes. He sold his LP for drug money and was given a copy which he used on AFD. It was that copy which Gibson copied for their Slash reissues!


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

colchar said:


> "Builder Bob has an original Gibson winder and hand winds each pickup based on PAF winds."
> 
> Huh?


And Jennifer Lopez sits beside Builder Bob rolling cigars for him.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Wait, THIS guy makes pickups? He's more versatile than I gave him credit for.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Wardo said:


> And Jennifer Lopez sits beside Builder Bob rolling cigars for him.


only using her thighs


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> In a video by PRS guitars, their management said anything above about approximately $800.00 is bling. If you have any experience with manufacturing, you can understand why this is so. There are not that many parts to an electric guitar and only so many different parts as to quality are available. Also, those parts are all mass produced and very low costs.


not only have you not posted the vid but the number seems to be going down and the year keeps getting longer according to your posts below




Steadfastly said:


> There was a video last yard with the management at PRS. One of them said the price after about $900.00 reflected bling. That is likely true of all manufacturers. Having worked for an international manufacturer for many years, my experience was the same. Once you hit a certain price point you are paying for marketing costs and bling and usually the marketing costs start as soon as the name goes on the product.





Steadfastly said:


> If you remember the video from PRS a little over a year ago, one of the owners admitted that anything over $900.00 was bling, marketing, etc. So when you see a guitar for $2000.00, $3000.00, $4000.00 and more you are not paying for a better guitar; perhaps a nicer guitar but not better.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

vadsy said:


> only using her thighs


Yeah, good that you mentioned that because Steadley may not know how it’s done.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Wardo said:


> Yeah, good that you mentioned that because Steadley may not know how it’s done.


solid chance he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground, cigar rolling may be a something he doesn't to focus on right now


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## Cardamonfrost (Dec 12, 2018)

I'm not planning on buying it. I think its ridiculous.

Just wanted to hear some other opinions.

There were a couple posts that had great info in them. I may look into pickup winding machines - I LOVE machines that don't really have a purpose in modern times.

C


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## JonnyD (Sep 20, 2016)

Cardamonfrost said:


> I'm not planning on buying it. I think its ridiculous.
> 
> Just wanted to hear some other opinions.
> 
> C


This was the main focus on this thread. Yeah it is a crazy amount for a replica, I definitely agree. 

Take a look at Slash(already mentioned) used a well built les paul replica and probably helped sell a lot of les Paul’s. That builder was a small builder, now try to buy any les Paul replica that he made during that time period. That’s a ridiculous price.


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## Cardamonfrost (Dec 12, 2018)

metallica86 said:


> Is it same guitar in our trade forum right now? Look exactly the same.


Yup, it is. Just found it. No disrespect to the seller intended. Just jealous that I couldn't afford something like that!



RBlakeney said:


> That guitar is worth more than both of my cars. I am very poor.


yeah, my cars too. I have some expensive pieces of gear, but that's next level. Everyone has money, just have to figure out where to spend it!

C


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

It's just a good thing that expensive guitars don't depreciate in value as fast as cars do!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

mhammer said:


> It's just a good thing that expensive guitars don't depreciate in value as fast as cars do!


*sideyes PRS USA used guitars* Are you sure?


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

If someone wants to buy me a 2019 LP 50s P90 Gold Top they can have my 83 Trans Am which has a lot of expensive race car junk on it as well as a ZZ4 crate motor.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Wardo said:


> If someone wants to buy me a 2019 LP 50s P90 Gold Top they can have my 83 Trans Am which has a lot of expensive race car junk on it as well as a ZZ4 crate motor.


Still have the 400 in it?


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

cboutilier said:


> Still have the 400 in it?


Has a zz4 (5.7 litre) crate with a built TH350. Original tranny was the POS metric 200C which blew up after I installed the ZZ4.

Next step was to do the 5 speed Tremic conversion but I bought a Martin HD35 Custom Shop instead. 

The guitar was the last of a limited run for the 12th Fret which they’d forgotten they had and it sat in their basement for 3 or 4 years untouched from the factory so kind of a barn find as guitars go.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Wardo said:


> Has a zz4 (5.7 litre) crate with a built TH350. Original tranny was the POS metric 200C which blew up after I installed the ZZ4.
> 
> Next step was to do the 5 speed Tremic conversion but I bought a Martin HD35 Custom Shop instead.
> 
> The guitar was the last of a limited run for the 12th Fret which they’d forgotten they had and it sat in their basement for 3 or 4 years untouched from the factory so kind of a barn find as guitars go.


Oh yeah, it's a 3rd gen! I'll keep an eye out for the Les Paul


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

cboutilier said:


> Oh yeah, it's a 3rd gen! I'll keep an eye out for the Les Paul


Fly porter, spend a week in TO, drive the car home. Done.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Interesting thread. I'm in the group that would prefer a brand name. One exception for a custom/smaller shop build for myself would be a Crimson. But that's because I've followed Ben Crowe for a while and am a fan of his work and aesthetic.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I tend toward known brands and solid basics - I almost always go with American Standards/Standards/Core models. Two exceptions I have made are my Tokai LP and an American Deluxe Tele. As a buyer or a seller I know that the quality and price are pretty consistent this way.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> In a video by PRS guitars, their management said anything above about approximately $800.00 is bling. If you have any experience with manufacturing, you can understand why this is so. There are not that many parts to an electric guitar and only so many different parts as to quality are available. Also, those parts are all mass produced and very low costs.


I've seen you post this a few times, but you've never shared a link to the video. It would be great if you'd post a link.


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## BobChuck (Jan 16, 2012)

They are not better instrument from an objective POV, they are not an investment either...

To me, it's all about the spirit.

To be there, to choose your specs, to see the wood, to see every steps....
Nothing beats having a discussion face to face, with a small *"local"* builder. 
Bonus if he offers you a beer (mega props to Brian Monty)


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

jdto said:


> I've seen you post this a few times, but you've never shared a link to the video. It would be great if you'd post a link.


Yes, me too. I looked for it once but couldn't find it. It wasn't posted by PRS but someone else who interviewed them and I can't remember who produced the YouTube video. I don't know how far the history goes back on this site but it was about four years ago as I believe it was when I still lived in St. Catharines and that will be four years ago in November. There were quite a few comments on the video at the time. Perhaps some other members remember the video. If someone can find it, I would like to save it for future reference.


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## Fuzzy dagger (Jun 3, 2016)

I bought a used MiM Tele blackout at l&m for $600.00 + tx. Came with a decent hard case. It’s a great guitar. My other Tele is a 10 year old squire that I have modded a lot. I agree that Teles are harder to find used than other guitars. That’s based on looking on local Kijiji for the last year or so.


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## BobChuck (Jan 16, 2012)

Fuzzy dagger said:


> View attachment 254702
> I bought a used MiM Tele blackout at l&m for $600.00 + tx. Came with a decent hard case. It’s a great guitar. My other Tele is a 10 year old squire that I have modded a lot. I agree that Teles are harder to find used than other guitars. That’s based on looking on local Kijiji for the last year or so.


Wrong thread???


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## Fuzzy dagger (Jun 3, 2016)

Yes.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I like their cookies, so I'm gonna go with a blanket statement "YES, all small builders always make better products always, in every situation, everywhere, all the time". This place loves broad generalizations, blanket statements and absolutes. I'm just here to serve.


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

those Bobbursts are great guitars

as far as the thread topic, I guess it depends on the builder?

a one man shop can give you more attention to detail, and more customized features

try ordering anything customized from Gibson...good luck!

but if the guy doesn't know what the hell he's doing, and pretends/thinks he does, or is a crook or a flake, you can get burned


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

I made an ugly guitar with a rattley truss rod. I will sell it for $4000


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

RBlakeney said:


> I made an ugly guitar with a rattley truss rod. I will sell it for $4000


you forgot to include the word LUTHIER in that offer

I'll only give you $4,000 if you call yourself a LUTHIER


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

bolero said:


> you forgot to include the word LUTHIER in that offer
> 
> I'll only give you $4,000 if you call yourself a LUTHIER


Sold. One of Luther the luthiers finest.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Scottone said:


> I've owned a few small company guitars over the years and they were all good, but I wouldn't say better. I have a recent Fender CS Tele that I like better than the 2 boutique tele clones that I've owned.
> 
> The R8s I've tried have been really good. I would just stick with that


I had a Crook T style made for me. The advantage is that it was made with my specs. As for being better than a Fender, I'd say not. I've had a couple custom shops that were better and a couple that were as good.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

High/Deaf said:


> I like their cookies, so I'm gonna go with a blanket statement "YES, all small builders always make better products always, in every situation, everywhere, all the time". This place loves broad generalizations, blanket statements and absolutes. I'm just here to serve.


I think the question is better asked "*Can *small builders build a better guitar". Then the answer could be "Definitely its possible". Small builders can give a particular instrument more attention to detail. 
When it comes to acoustics some say that Collings or Bourgoies puts out a better product than Martin. I've found fit and finish can consistently be superior. When it comes to tone however if you want a Martin tone or a gibson tone you're better off with those brands. The small builders usually have their take on what the tone should be. If it happens to be what you like then definitely the small builder would be better for you.
With electrics its easier to copy a strat, tele or gibby tone.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Certainly small builders _*can *_build great instruments. It doesn't require huge factories, overhead cranes, complex technology, so why not? Some of the great instruments, from centuries ago till now, came out of one man shops. But that doesn't preclude the fact that some large companies make many fine instruments as well.

The small builders suffer from lack of economy to scale, usually leading to higher initial costs. Which generally means resale value suffers, unless you pick the right builder and his stuff becomes desirable. We all shoulda bought a Languedoc two decades ago.


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

I'm on the fence. I've owned two very nice 100km rule guitars and while they were great instruments, from what I saw on some sellers ads they could spend months on Kijiji or craigslist with no interest regardless of them destroying custom shop guitars. You don't buy one on a whim. Even carvin falls into that category and they probably make thousands of guitars a year.

And on a certain instrument there is something to be said by workers that bang off flawless fret jobs every day or dedicated painters etc. that a one man show doesn't have the time in to master. 

Sent from my H3223 using Tapatalk


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## nikkisixx100 (Feb 2, 2013)

Cardamonfrost said:


> Saw this and it got me to thinking... For 8k I can buy a pretty fantastic Les Paul from Gibson that will have a (presumably) better resale value. Can it really be better? I gotta say, I love my R8..
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> ...


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## nikkisixx100 (Feb 2, 2013)

Cardamonfrost said:


> Saw this and it got me to thinking... For 8k I can buy a pretty fantastic Les Paul from Gibson that will have a (presumably) better resale value. Can it really be better? I gotta say, I love my R8..
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> ...


That’s mine it is amazing I have some collectors choice and historic makeovers R9s and R7s it’s right there with those and they are between $8k-$13k respectively. This thing will blow away any regular run R8,R9 I guarantee you that!


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## reckless toboggan (Mar 9, 2019)

Budda said:


> Doesnt Slash have "Gibson" les pauls that were actually ghost built?




You take that back!

Blasphemer!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

reckless toboggan said:


> You take that back!
> 
> Blasphemer!


Cant tell if sarcasm, but pretty sure its heavily documented.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

I think even better is 3 or 4 workshops teaming up.
One guy builds necks and frets them and only does that, perfectly.
One guy builds bodies and only does that, really well.
One guy does only finishing, extremely well.
4th dude puts it together and does a perfect setup.
Throw in a pickup winder, and hardware builder...done. 

If they do this under separate buildings I guess you'd call this a craft build. If all under one roof, now it's a factory.
If one builder can do all this is good too of course.


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## weener (Apr 9, 2009)

That Bobburst is a replica , its as close to a real burst as you can get . Check out Gil Yaron ,or Bartlett replicas $10K+ ,I think the Bobburst at now $7500 is a deal .


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## Cardamonfrost (Dec 12, 2018)

weener said:


> That Bobburst is a replica , its as close to a real burst as you can get . Check out Gil Yaron ,or Bartlett replicas $10K+ ,I think the Bobburst at now $7500 is a deal .


Lol, could be. Id love to own it just because I'm sure its fantastic. However, "its as close to a real burst as you can get" is out there for me. For the same money you can get a TH or even CC models which, by all units of measure, are _real_ bursts. They even say Gibson on them. Hell, some of the original machinery is being used for the manufacture of them.

C


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## keefsdad (Feb 7, 2006)

RBlakeney said:


> That guitar is worth more than both of my cars. I am very poor.


You have a car?!


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

keefsdad said:


> You have a car?!


Yes. But my wife is getting a new one this week so I'll probably get a new one too.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

RBlakeney said:


> Yes. But my wife is getting a new one this week so I'll probably get a new one too.


Get me one too while you're at it please.


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## Cardamonfrost (Dec 12, 2018)

RBlakeney said:


> Yes. But my wife is getting a new one this week so I'll probably get a new one too.


Cars are for schumcks that don't know how to spend all of their credit on guitars. I give lessons on that kind of thing if you are interested.

C


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

Cardamonfrost said:


> Cars are for schumcks that don't know how to spend all of their credit on guitars. I give lessons on that kind of thing if you are interested.
> 
> C


I generally only spend money I have for gear and not credit. With few exceptions. 



Budda said:


> Get me one too while you're at it please.


Hyundai accents for all.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Those new ones look good.


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