# Winter Tires



## Luke98 (Mar 4, 2007)

Do you put yours on every year? Studded or not studded?
Don't bother?
I do, (but coincidently took the ditch with them before the snow hit anyways, but that was my own stupid fault.)

They've been proven to make a HUGE difference yet there's still alot of people who don't put them on... I don't get it.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

I do. Not studded.

My car came with performance summer tires, so not wanting to die, winters are a must.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

They have always been illegal in Ontario! I once asked a friend who worked for the provincial highways department for the reason.

He told me that the thinking was that studded tires cause excessive wear to the roads and highways, increasing their costs. Apparently the cost of accidents to the citizens of the province isn't considered important.

He further told me that he had seen studies which showed that studded tires DO increase road wear, but only to a significant degree at intersections, from braking and accelerating from the stop. Inbetween the wear was negligible.

Furthermore, the cost of all the extra salting and sanding that Ontario pays for not allowing studded tires is far more than the cost of repairing intersections!

Whatever, we are simply not allowed to use them in Ontario. My understanding is that we are the only province or state in North America with such a ban. 

:food-smiley-004:


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## Luke98 (Mar 4, 2007)

I don't use studded because of the noise one pair we had made, and the roads when the studded become illegal to still have on are still too bad to put summer tires on.

It's suicide on rural roads such as ours to not have winter tires... the roads aren't plowed often/well enough, and the clowns who drive the plows often don't know what they're doing... One rolled right through a stop sign on a side road onto the main road and it's plow crossed into my lane, i pulled almost onto the shoulder just so it didn't hit me.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Winter tires are winter tires because of the grade of rubber used. It remains pliable at lower temperatures, hence providing better grip. The thing is, it's like salt on the roads; below a certain temperature it doesn't do anything. I don't know all that much about the rubber involved, but my guess is that when it gets below -25C the rubber grade makes little difference. It gets just as rigid as all-weather types.

Of course, there is winter and there is winter, and the person driving an SUV or van who sits higher up and gets accustomed to higher speeds on winter tires at -12C might overestimate their braking power or manouverability on those same tires at -25C. Just because there is snow on the ground doesn't mean that your tires think it's the same season.

We travel the Ottawa-Hamilton route at least once a year, usually at christmas-time, and we often see vehicles sitting in ditches or spinning out on the 401 during those occasions when the temperature is sitting at the cusp of different road conditions at different places on the road. So, Bowmanville might be fine, but by the time people get to Coburg, there's patches of black ice that weren't there a few short kilometres ago. If they adjust their driving, they're okay. It's the ones who didn't adjust their driving to the new conditions whose heads are fused with the windshield by the side of the road.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I always use winter tires. I wish we could use studs. In alot of european countries, they allow not only studs but make all drivers take winter driving courses which involve alot of training on an ice skid pad. I dont buy into the bullshit about road wear. Its just an excuse to not use good grade ashphalt and an excuse not to take care of the roads. My winter shoes are 265 or 275s, dont remember, so they can easily slide sideways if you turn too fast, or give it too much gas. With studs, it would correct those things. I know a couple of people running studs eventhough they are banned here. They havent gotten caught yet, but I am very tempted to do the same. Just because something is against the law, doesnt always make it not right. I would rather be in more control than to put others at risk, because if I slide into a car with 5200 pounds, and riding high, the odds are not in their favour. Studs would prevent allot of accidents. Anyone who has seen their power on the rural, often unlowed, streets of Northern Europe is instantly sold of their awesomeness. They also help with the stoopid weight distributions of some cars and pickup trucks. 100/0 and 0/100 is not a safe distribution in the winter......


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2009)

So I _just _switched to winter tires this year on my Pathfinder. Previously, living in Toronto, getting by on some aggressive tread all seasons was find. Or so I thought. Last Winter, our first in Ottawa in a long time, showed me how wrong I was. But we rode it out and promised never to do it again. This year I got the winters on (Cooper Artic Claws IIRC) in early December so I had a chance to A/B them with snow on the ground against the all seasons.

*I will never again drive on snow with all seasons.* The difference is night and day. And that was in mild winter weather.

This long running -20 C weather has degraded the performance of my winter tires. You can definitely feel them slip a bit more when you first start out in the morning. Once the rubber warms up it's good, but after a night out in the cold their efficacy is noticeably reduced. Which has made me wonder how all seasons would be fairing in this cold weather -- my guess is: very poorly.

I'd use studded tires if we could. I've used chains in the past when traveling. They were mandatory when we were in the Tahoe area one Christmas. They have little rest areas going up the mountain into Truckee where you can stop and put your chains on. And friendly little signs reminding you that if it's snowing you _have_ to have them on. They worked great. Couldn't have done that trip without them. And that's some _heavily_ traveled road. Can't be all that bad for the road if they require you use them there.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2009)

Accept2 said:


> 100/0 and 0/100 is not a safe distribution in the winter......


Obviously nothing is as good as adaptive all wheel drive, or even the 50/50 scenario in a 4x4, but 100/0 and 0/100 are not comparable. 100/0 is much safer, more controlled, when accelerating than 0/100. It is always better to be pulling your weight forward than pushing it from far behind.


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## Guest (Jan 26, 2009)

mhammer said:


> Of course, there is winter and there is winter, and the person driving an SUV or van who sits higher up and gets accustomed to higher speeds on winter tires at -12C might overestimate their braking power or manouverability on those same tires at -25C. Just because there is snow on the ground doesn't mean that your tires think it's the same season.


Having gone from driving this to driving this I have to say I don't understand the "person driving an SUV" comment. Going fast in the car was easy -- you felt the road, you felt glued to it, but you didn't "feel" the speed on account of the stability of the vehicle. It was like driving on rails. But going fast in the Pathfinder is hard -- you "feel" the speed because the whole thing wobbles and sways a lot more, it does not feel like you're driving on rails so to speak. I'll often think I'm doing 100, but look down and find out I'm really hovering in the low 90's.

I think most SUV drivers end up in the ditch because they think:

A) All season truck tires are a good substitute for winter tires;
B) 4 wheel drive means you've got SuperAwesomeTraction;
C) They don't understand their 4 wheel drive system (less of a problem if they have an AWD equipped SUV) and forget to turn it on;
D) They think traction control systems will save them;

I remember driving back from Toronto to Ottawa one Christmas after we got the Pathfinder and it was a horrible blizzard. I did 30 km/hr on highway 7 all the way from Tweed to Carp. Ugh. Someone made a comment about how I should have just been flying by everyone in "my truck" -- which struck me absurd. I couldn't drive any faster in that weather than I could have in a car. The 4WD just saved me from having to push a rear wheel drive vehicle in that kind of snow. I would have been pulled over, waiting it out, if it had been the base rear-wheel-drive-only model. The 4WD mode just put me on par with a FWD car. I certainly didn't feel it offer me any more traction on that trip.


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## Michelle (Aug 21, 2006)

I haven't had winter tires since I started drivin these new-fangled front wheel drive cars.  Really though, we don't get much snow here, I live 8Km from work, 2Km from everything else. Haven't need them and since NB will probably follow Quebec's lead, I will have them next winter, whether I want them or not.

At least without winter treads, I am more careful.


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## sgiven (Jul 31, 2007)

The other thing about being over-confident with AWD or 4WD is that neither of them make you stop any faster.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

No, but with the newer AWD/4WD traction control systems and their links to the ABS, you have more control making it sometimes unnecessary to stop...........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3m24bjkfg0


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

iaresee said:


> I have to say I don't understand the "person driving an SUV" comment. Going fast in the car was easy -- you felt the road, you felt glued to it, but you didn't "feel" the speed on account of the stability of the vehicle. It was like driving on rails. But going fast in the Pathfinder is hard -- you "feel" the speed because the whole thing wobbles and sways a lot more, it does not feel like you're driving on rails so to speak. I'll often think I'm doing 100, but look down and find out I'm really hovering in the low 90's.
> 
> I think most SUV drivers end up in the ditch because they think:
> 
> ...


Your 4 reasons are sound. I base my "SUV comments" on my experiences driving minivans, which may well be different from what I think the SUV experience is. I will say that the viewing angle subtended by sitting higher up DOES change one's sense of movement, terrain covered, and hence, "subjective velocity". You're likely quite right that the handling of the vehicle will mediate whether that *feels* faster or slower. But I stand by the basic premise of subjective speed being related to what you can see in the distance.

That being said, I recall a study discussed on "As It Happens" several years ago. The researchers had given some university athletes the same kinds of running shoes. They told one group that the shoes were high-end expensive ones (no particular brand), but made no such claims about the shoes for the other group. When they got back to them later, they found the ones who thought they were using high-end expensive shoes had significantly more sports-injuries, largely because they placed more faith in the shoes and took bigger risks as a result. A similar thing happens, of course, with the advent of more protective gear in pro sports; people take bigger chances and get hurt worse as a result. I have little doubt that similar things happen in vehicles that people THINK will be so foolproof that they will always be able to brake in time or steer out of the way. As I insist on another thread here (idiot drivers), all too often there is insufficient time for the driver to make good decisions when driving, and especially to adapt to initial bad decisions. Two hundred milliseconds might provide a nice slapback sound, but it doesn't lead to effective driving decisions or braking capacity.


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## sgiven (Jul 31, 2007)

Accept2 said:


> No, but with the newer AWD/4WD traction control systems and their links to the ABS, you have more control making it sometimes unnecessary to stop...........
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3m24bjkfg0


"Sometimes" is the key word. Sometimes there's nowhere else to go. But yeah, it is an advantage, I'd rather have AWD.

I watched that video. It bugs me how when they're demonstrating the benefits of ABS, they compare it to someone using standard brakes just stomping on the pedal and holding it down. Some of us actually know how to use standard brakes and can stop faster than ABS. It's not even that difficult to control the direction of the car (with a little practice). 

I don't like ABS, If I'm pushing the pedal it's because I want 100% brakes not half and half.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Actually the video is about stability control, which ABS plays a small part. ABS alone is actually worthless. If you have a good winter driving education system like many european countries, with stability control, studded winter tires and AWD/4WD, you get less accidents. Its when people over here get only some of those compnents, that they feel invinsible. We seem to think, throw salt down, get AWD, and you wont have any problems. Salt also causes so much problems over here. Its really a poor thought process..........


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...if i lived in thunder bay, i'd install winter tires.

if i lived in timmins, i'd install winter tires.

if i lived in sudbury, i'd install winter tires.

if i lived in barrie, i'd install winter tires.

i live in toronto. installing winter tires would be a bit silly.

i often pass cars in the ditch that have winter tires.

there is no substitute for being able to drive.

-dh


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I generally don't bother. All seasons are more than adequate for Southern Ontario.

This year I put winters on the back (rear wheel drive) and good all seasons on the front. I don't think the winters are necessary but they do help.

Studs and chains are prohibited in Ontario.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> i often pass cars in the ditch that have winter tires.
> 
> there is no substitute for being able to drive.
> 
> -dh


Truer words were never spoken.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

david henman;170245there is no substitute for being able to drive.
-dh[/QUOTE said:


> yes ok, but think about it, how many people actually learn how to drive in the winter?
> 
> On the East coast I never had winter tires. I don't have them here either. There should be some sort of mandatory training provided for new drivers (a la the graduated license system) that you must pass in winter prior to being let loose.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

Regardless of what tires you have on your vehical , driving as to the conditions ( SLOWING DOWN and NOT TAILGATING !! ) is your best way to make it to where you are going safely . I don't know how many times you will see people going way faster than they should be passing or sitting right on your ass when conditions are poor . I'm not one that creeps along either , those drivers are somewhat annoying and should not be driving if they are that uncomfortable with the roads . 

I see vehicals pass me that are being thrown around due to snow or ice on the roads....I mean you can tell their vehical is on the threshold of loosing control yet they don't seem to realise that . Those drivers really scare me :sport-smiley-002:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

nitehawk55 said:


> Regardless of what tires you have on your vehical , driving as to the conditions ( SLOWING DOWN and NOT TAILGATING !! ) is your best way to make it to where you are going safely . I don't know how many times you will see people going way faster than they should be passing or sitting right on your ass when conditions are poor . I'm not one that creeps along either , those drivers are somewhat annoying and should not be driving if they are that uncomfortable with the roads .
> 
> I see vehicals pass me that are being thrown around due to snow or ice on the roads....I mean you can tell their vehical is on the threshold of loosing control yet they don't seem to realise that . Those drivers really scare me :sport-smiley-002:



I agree, but I feel even more strongly that slow and frightened drivers are every bit as dangerous as reckless ones.

I drive a lot. It's a part of my job. In fact, I drove to and from Chicago this week (around 1500k all told) and saw more dangerous tortoises than hares.

Somewhere between the two extremes there's a safe balance.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I agree, but I feel even more strongly that slow and frightened drivers are every bit as dangerous as reckless ones.
> 
> I drive a lot. It's a part of my job. In fact, I drove to and from Chicago this week (around 1500k all told) and saw more dangerous tortoises than hares.
> 
> Somewhere between the two extremes there's a safe balance.


I mention those as the ones that creep (? ) along . If they are that scared to be on the roads then they should not be......a disaster waiting to happen not to mention it gets traffic all backed up and people passing/tailgating no matter what the conditions .


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Starbuck said:


> yes ok, but think about it, how many people actually learn how to drive in the winter?


Thats the difference between Europe and here. They have real winter driver training. Actually there is a great winter driver training school in Colorado. They even get people from Europe to come over. Its all done on the golf course, and they put ice down, and you spend 3 days learning great driving techniques, including the infamous Scandinavian flick. They also teach using front, rear and mid engined cars, so you get the feeling of all. I believe the instructor to driver ratio is 3:1, so its not something the MOT can run, as they would prefer an administrator to driver ratio of 3:1.......


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...whenever the topic of bad driving comes up, there is always a chorus of complaints about left lane bandits and slow drivers. does anyone have the latest stats on how many on how many fatal/injurious accidents these drivers cause, annually?

:wave:


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

It depdns on how you interpret the stats. If you take the Autobahn stats where everyone drives fast and compare them to the US and Canadian stats where everyone drives relatively slow, you find that slow drivers cause more fatal accidents than fast ones. Its because speed is generally irrelevant to fatal accidents. The world is much more complex than that...............


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2009)

mhammer said:


> Your 4 reasons are sound. I base my "SUV comments" on my experiences driving minivans, which may well be different from what I think the SUV experience is.


Comparing my experience driving a minivan in my teenage days (a late 80's Grand Caravan) to my Spec V Sentra to my Pathfinder the Pathfinder definitely is the least stable of the lot -- and it feels that way. You have step up into that vehicle. The Sentra you crouched down into. And the Grand Caravan you slid straight in to. So in terms of how high your butt from the road is it's definitely: Sentra -> Grand Caravan -> Pathfinder. I'll venture a guess that that's true for most minivans -- they tend to be built on car platforms and ride lower to the ground, but use a more upright seat. You're higher, but not as high as an SUV or full on truck.



> But I stand by the basic premise of subjective speed being related to what you can see in the distance.


No argument there. But it's only one piece of the experience. For me, sitting higher is of little help if I feel the motion of the vehicle, especially from side-to-side, is unsettling.



> I have little doubt that similar things happen in vehicles that people THINK will be so foolproof that they will always be able to brake in time or steer out of the way. As I insist on another thread here (idiot drivers), all too often there is insufficient time for the driver to make good decisions when driving, and especially to adapt to initial bad decisions. Two hundred milliseconds might provide a nice slapback sound, but it doesn't lead to effective driving decisions or braking capacity.


That is my feeling as well: people get told these technologies (4 wheel drive, ABS, traction control, etc.) make them safer and instead of continuing to drive the way they had driven without these technologies they push the envelope more, negating any (I'll contend minor) safety advantages these technologies provide.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> ....slow drivers cause more fatal accidents than fast ones. Its because speed is generally irrelevant to fatal accidents.



...i would love to see the stats to back up that one!

yes, folks, thousands of people die every year because drivers are just not going fast enough.

kkjuw


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...i would love to see the stats to back up that one!
> 
> yes, folks, thousands of people die every year because drivers are just not going fast enough.
> 
> kkjuw


Dave, you need to prove where speed is actually having a cause and effect on fatalities or accidents. There is none that I can see. Unless you can prove that going over or under the speed limit has a direct effect on crashing, all stats are open to interpretation. Its like the arguments of how old the earth is. Some say 5000 years, others say billions. It just depends on which data you value, and how much interpretaion of that data you allow.........


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

Lots of comments on tempature, but I feel it has more to do with the snow itself.

Winter tires get great traction in wet snow. They can grab the stuff and drive through it really well. Both breaking and accelerating are great.

Winter tires don't work as well in dry (frozen) snow. They can't grab the stuff, and even if they could the snow doesn't stick to itself. Driving through powder feels like your driving through loose sand. You tend to slide to a stop and accelerating is best done slow and controlled or else you'll slip sideways as you move forward.

Winter tires don't work on ice for sh*t.... although they are better than summers or all seasons (which should really be called 3 seasons 'cause they're not so hot in winter). If you want/need good ice traction you need studs or chains. Studs are nice because they're permanant and they don't have the drawbacks associated with chains. The trade off is that you need to swap them out come summer to avoid wasting the life of the studs. Chains are good on ice and in deep snow, but they suck on pavement since they slide where rubber would grab, and you really shouldn't be driving very fast with them. The trade off is that they're removeable.... so they're handy if you only need that kind of traction every once in awhile.

I think winter tires are worth it. Southern Ontario is the one place where I probably wouldn't bother with them. Either way, they're cheaper than the increase in your insurance premium should you wind up in an accident that could've been avoided with better tires.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Dave, you need to prove where speed is actually having a cause and effect on fatalities or accidents. There is none that I can see. Unless you can prove that going over or under the speed limit has a direct effect on crashing, all stats are open to interpretation. Its like the arguments of how old the earth is. Some say 5000 years, others say billions. It just depends on which data you value, and how much interpretaion of that data you allow.........


...sure, mate. step right up. i'm going to hit you twice: once with a slow-moving left fist, the second time with a much faster moving right fist.

okay, you tell me, which one does the most damage.

kqoct

ps....for the record, YOU are the one who made the ridculous assertion, not me.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Dave, you need to prove where speed is actually having a cause and effect on fatalities or accidents. There is none that I can see. Unless you can prove that going over or under the speed limit has a direct effect on crashing, all stats are open to interpretation. Its like the arguments of how old the earth is. Some say 5000 years, others say billions. It just depends on which data you value, and how much interpretaion of that data you allow.........


...i'm sure the police have no idea what they are talking about when they state that "speed was a factor".

obviously, you know much more about these things than people who make their living at it.

:bow:


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Please learn cause and effect, its so important, and so many people dont understand it in todays world. Its simple, on a macro level, an action causes an effect. If you speed, the effect is you travel faster. If you drive slow, the effect is you travel slower. Only in science fiction would the effect be an accident........


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...i'm sure the police have no idea what they are talking about when they state that "speed was a factor".
> 
> obviously, you know much more about these things than people who make their living at it.
> 
> :bow:


You said it yourself, "factor." There can be 1000 factors in any accident, yet underfunded police forces have found a way to to increase their revenues by touting bullshit. You want to get drunk and kill some one with your car, its AOK by them, but dont you ever speed. Its a factor.........


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

Well I have to agree that I see way too much uncalled for speeding out there vs slow drivers which in the opinion of most drivers are ones actually travelling at the posted speed . I mean , do these drivers actually know why they have to speed....is there a reason ? , are they late for work...emergency...WHAT ?? Bottom line is it's a disregard for their safety and any others out on the road....they just have to be going faster then the other guy no matter the road conditions or visability . I will add that I'm not a doddler , I usually do 10km over the posted speed just to keep from being rear ended by speeders wanting to do 20-30 km or more over the posted speed and I'm not talking 4 lane highways , these are 2 lane secondary roads . We see people killed every year in head on collisions .
Just this morning the roads were greasy and I'm doing the posted speed of 90 and feel comfortable at that but no....dude in his big 4X4 pickup has to pass on snow covered road and do at least 100 or better . 

For as many safety gadgets they build into modern vehicals I wonder if they will ever have something that subs for the brain of the aggressive drivers behind the wheel ?


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

nitehawk55 said:


> For as many safety gadgets they build into modern vehicals I wonder if they will ever have something that subs for the brain of the aggressive drivers behind the wheel ?


Its called smart roads, but unfortunately here, we wont be able to afford them. They will be cool though. As they get better and better we should be able to travel at very high speeds and have the road's computer brain sort everything out..........


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2009)

Accept2 said:


> Its called smart roads, but unfortunately here, we wont be able to afford them. They will be cool though. As they get better and better we should be able to travel at very high speeds and have the road's computer brain sort everything out..........


As a guy who works all day long trying to make computers smarter I have to say I'd be very uncomfortable allowing a computer to drive me very fast on an open road. On a rail track: no problem. It's an environment with much more control. But on a road: no way.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

In the words of every left lane bandit.

"been driving for thirty years and never been in an accident"



What they don't tell you is how many they've caused.


Same goes for those who ride their brakes down snowy hills. Some poor schmuck comes down he hill behind them driving carefully but not in absolute terror piles into their rear end and who gets blamed? 

Not the person who caused it that's for sure.


BALANCE is the key. The extremes on both sides of the equation are the ones who scare me.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...again, i have yet to see any stats on how many deaths/injuries are caused, annually, by "so-called" left lane bandits and slow drivers.

i believe these claims are figments of the fertile imaginations of me-first drivers who are simply in way to much of a hurry but, hey, feel free to enlighten me, at any time.

-dh




Milkman said:


> In the words of every left lane bandit.
> 
> "been driving for thirty years and never been in an accident"
> 
> ...


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Its called smart roads, but unfortunately here, we wont be able to afford them. They will be cool though. As they get better and better we should be able to travel at very high speeds and have the road's computer brain sort everything out..........




...the vast majority of drivers cannot handle such simple tasks as stopping for red lights and stop signs, or turning on their lights when the visibility is poor.

hey, here's a great idea - lets encourage them to drive faster!

kksjur


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...this is nothing more than a theory, but here it is nonetheless:

i believe that the vast majority of speeders, aggressive drivers and red light runners are actually not in a hurry. they are, simply put, impatient, and victims of a misguided delusion that they are somehow more important than everyone else.

they are also the first to whine about "so-called" left lane bandits and slow drivers.

-dh




nitehawk55 said:


> Well I have to agree that I see way too much uncalled for speeding out there vs slow drivers which in the opinion of most drivers are ones actually travelling at the posted speed . I mean , do these drivers actually know why they have to speed....is there a reason ? , are they late for work...emergency...WHAT ?? Bottom line is it's a disregard for their safety and any others out on the road....they just have to be going faster then the other guy no matter the road conditions or visability . I will add that I'm not a doddler , I usually do 10km over the posted speed just to keep from being rear ended by speeders wanting to do 20-30 km or more over the posted speed and I'm not talking 4 lane highways , these are 2 lane secondary roads . We see people killed every year in head on collisions .
> Just this morning the roads were greasy and I'm doing the posted speed of 90 and feel comfortable at that but no....dude in his big 4X4 pickup has to pass on snow covered road and do at least 100 or better .
> 
> For as many safety gadgets they build into modern vehicals I wonder if they will ever have something that subs for the brain of the aggressive drivers behind the wheel ?


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Please learn cause and effect, its so important, and so many people dont understand it in todays world. Its simple, on a macro level, an action causes an effect.........



...couldn't agree more. you drive too fast and too agressively, you cause accidents, the effect of which is to kill and maim people at an absolutely alarming rate.

ironically, thanks to our love affair with the automobile and our innate ability to rationalize stupidity, _there is no alarm._
-dh


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I generally don't bother. All seasons are more than adequate for Southern Ontario.


Not around this part of southern Ontario! Winter tires are vital in Huron, Bruce, Grey, Perth counties and beyond, even if one doesn't leave town. Since I often travel highways 21 and 8 I wouldn't trust all season tires.

Your milage (literally) may vary.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...again, i have yet to see any stats on how many deaths/injuries are caused, annually, by "so-called" left lane bandits and slow drivers.
> 
> i believe these claims are figments of the fertile imaginations of me-first drivers who are simply in way to much of a hurry but, hey, feel free to enlighten me, at any time.
> 
> -dh


Nor would you. How would such a stat be compiled? Volunteer phone line? 



We all see things from our own perspective.

Whether or not you agree, I have seen numerous accidents caused as a direct result of timid, frightened drivers who should be staying off the roads in winter.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Mooh said:


> Not around this part of southern Ontario! Winter tires are vital in Huron, Bruce, Grey, Perth counties and beyond, even if one doesn't leave town. Since I often travel highways 21 and 8 I wouldn't trust all season tires.
> 
> Your milage (literally) may vary.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.


Point conceded.

I travel the Windsor and Sarnia corridors and conditions are typically much worse there than in Brantford.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

*Nor would you. How would such a stat be compiled? Volunteer phone line? *

...same as any other stats.

*We all see things from our own perspective.

Whether or not you agree, I have seen numerous accidents caused as a direct result of timid, frightened drivers who should be staying off the roads in winter.*

...what do you have against sharing the road with people who pay the same taxes? is this not a form of discrimination?

i just moved from the suburbs (newmarket), where drivers are pretty savvy, to the danforth/victoria park, where there are a lot of unskilled, inexperienced and timid drivers who probably only use the car to get to the pharmacy, the grocery store and the doctor. for better or worse, these people have as much right to be on the road as you or i.


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