# 2 questions i am stuck on.



## TempoGuy (Jun 11, 2021)

Hello again folks,

I am taking a free music theory course online. It is pretty cool, but their are a couple questions I just can't figure out. So far.

In picture 1, I keep getting 18 quarter notes. So 4.5 bars. But apparently that is not correct. What do you get?

The next one I don't understand is question C in the next picture. Are the values equal in the 2 examples? The whole note with the dot is 6 quarter notes. What does the other example equal? What does the 3 mean under the 2 half notes and 2 quarter notes?

Thanks for looking!


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

4.25 when I count it, but there is a chance I am wrong 

1.5 0.5 1 1 1 1 (0.5+0.5) 0.5 0.5 0.5 1 0.5 1.5 0.5 0.75 0.5 0.5 0.75 0.5 2

The three there denotes a triplet, but I don't know how to count it with different times in it. Sorry.

.... can you tell it has been a long time since I dialed into music theory

What course. I clearly need an update.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

I did some internet sleuthing for you (us) and found out this...

In summary, the triplet there maintains its rhythmic or note valuations, however instead of spanning the entire of the time it typically would the "triplet" gets played in the value of 2 of the notes.

Typically we see triplets written as things like 3 quarter notes, or eight notes and the like.... or at the very least the same bloody value.

let's use quarter as an easy example.

A 3 quarter note triplet gets played in the space of 2 quarter notes

A 3 eighth note triplet gets played in 2 eight notes.

A 4 note triplet of quarter notes gets played in 2 quarter notes, sneaky bastards.

Your example then would have the half, half, quarter, quarter play in one whole.

So the anwser for the whole measure is 6 beats or YES.

Hopefully someone comes along who can explain it better than I can.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

there are 4 bars in the 1st example. And then in question C the notes in the triplet time are equal to a dotted whole note, and the remainder is equal to one more half note. Triplet time is a feel so, as Mark had mentioned above, it equates to playing "odds over evens" in a consistent meter. 
If you touch upon jazz in your studies, someone might refer you to standards with vocals (Sinatra, Bennett etc.) because singers can usually spell out the time and feel of a melody without too many embellishments, and you can mimic that sense of breath in your playing.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> there are 4 bars in the 1st example. And then in question C the notes in the triplet time are equal to a dotted whole note, and the remainder is equal to one more half note. Triplet time is a feel so, as Mark had mentioned above, it equates to playing "odds over evens" in a consistent meter.
> If you touch upon jazz in your studies, someone might refer you to standards with vocals (Sinatra, Bennett etc.) because singers can usually spell out the time and feel of a melody without too many embellishments, and you can mimic that sense of breath in your playing.


Well son of a bitch, I really do need to brush up on stuff. 

I missed the bars tying the beam. My bad.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> And then in question C the notes in the triplet time are equal to a dotted whole note


I might not be in a position to argue... but I am going to anyway 

Are you sure about that? The way I understand them, it would be equivalent to being played in the space of a whole note. Now I am definitely not saying I am right, but would you care to explain the how of your counting, quite possibly to prove me wrong but mostly so I can understand


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mark Brown said:


> I might not be in a position to argue... but I am going to anyway
> 
> Are you sure about that? The way I understand them, it would be equivalent to being played in the space of a whole note. Now I am definitely not saying I am right, but would you care to explain the how of your counting, quite possibly to prove me wrong but mostly so I can understand


I am sure as far as there are no bar lines nor a meter to suggest where the cut off is, its only asking if a dotted whole note is equal to this sum of notes on the right. In 4/4 time a dotted whole note would be held for 1 and a half bars just the same. If in 6/4, we could get 1 dotted whole note to a bar. 
At this stage, it looks like these exercises are designed to help a learner read notation and perform some arithmetic without compositional elements.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Me again...

So basically a triplet plays in two thirds of its metered time right?

So in this example the triplet counts at

half half quarter quarter
2 2 1 1

For 6, however it gets played in 4 beats, no?


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

The triplet tie tells you that the 2half2quarts are part of a single phrase and will be played over/through the bar-line if we're talking 4/4. We could prescribe a different meter, but the length/duration of the notes does not change. They are not a ratio of our meter, but a consistent length across any chosen meter (which dictates how many of these notes we have in 1 bar)
So 6 quarter notes in a 4/4 will only fit in 2 bars. We can rhythmically subdivide these notes, but then they would have been compositionally changed.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

The length of notation in a triplet does change though.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mark Brown said:


> The length of notation in a triplet does change though.


It depends on how many beats the triplet is meant to occupy, but it is not meant to add or subtract time, only subdivide an even count. Tri-ple-et is a feel, and so you could have 2 notes occupying the breadth of a triplet instead of three, and the beat would remain consistent while the time-feel changes. 
At the end of the day, theory is the afterthought or the explanation for our musical choices, but it is not the music itself. So we have to try to interpret it in a practical context...in this case, we have no example to apply this idea to, and from a purely notational standpoint we don't want to complicate our lives by counting triplets a bunch of different ways in a single score. We have to assume that we have a consistent meter, be that 4/4 or 6/4 or anything else, and then we see how many quarters or 8ths etc fit into the bar. The triplet tie tells us that these notes are together and they may overlap the bar line; the tied notes have their own jurisdiction for the moment, but they do not change the meter we have hypothetically stated at the beginning.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

The triplet does change the beats counted against those notes in whatever measures they are written in.

I am at a loss to understand you, or explain differently what I am trying to say.

This page demonstrates my understanding quite well









How to Count and Play Triplets in Music


A triplet is a group of three notes played inside another note-length. Understanding how triplets work is key to counting them.




www.liveabout.com




.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mark Brown said:


> The triplet does change the beats counted against those notes in whatever measures they are written in.
> 
> I am at a loss to understand you, or explain differently what I am trying to say.
> 
> ...


Hehe, it's an interesting problem. What I am emphasizing is this: "the total length of the note-grouping remains intact ": the beat itself is intact/unchanged, but the notes within it can be subdivided ad-infinitum. The important thing to note : what is the space that a triplet is meant to occupy. Ensure that the space is felt in metered proportion to the rhythm even if subdivided into a triplet. Your count may change in order to better feel the triplet, but it doesnt change the duration of the bar itself.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

At the risk of sounding like a dillhole, I have to say I think you are over complicating the simplicity the OP is asking for in the qurstion.

How many beats does the half half quarter quarter triplet occupy.

The answer is 4 beats.

The total length of the note grouping does not remain intact and in fact becomes 2/3 of its written length if we were to remove the triplet.

Of course it does not change the length of a bar, this is true, but in this instance we do not even have a bar, or a time signature, or any other thing to denote any changes in the phrasing.


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## TempoGuy (Jun 11, 2021)

Wow, I feel like you guys are kneading my brain. 

They got into triplets in the lecture, but it was using eighth notes. So it was easier to understand, but I think it is becoming clear.

Here is the course i am taking Mark I am finding it to be very interesting. I work things out on my keyboard first, it's good for chords and then take it to my bass because it is much cooler.









Fundamentals of Music Theory


Offered by The University of Edinburgh. This course, revised in 2022, will introduce you to the theory of music, providing you with the ... Enroll for free.




www.coursera.org


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## TempoGuy (Jun 11, 2021)

Btw, all responses have been very helpful, thank you guys for your efforts.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

TempoGuy said:


> Here is the course i am taking Mark I am finding it to be very interesting. I work things out on my keyboard first, it's good for chords and then take it to my bass because it is much cooler.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for that.

I have clearly forgotten as much as I know as is evident here, I need to get back into it and see if my brain can catch back up.

Long time ago in the far away, it was as familiar as the English language.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

It's just my Broccolihead making a mash of a perfectly simple concept.
That is right, if that grouping is felt as a triplet it will occupy 2 halfnotes, but the notation presents an error in writing it as 4 compound notes tied. So I concede a slight misunderstanding.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> It's just my Broccolihead making a mash of a perfectly simple concept.
> That is right, if that grouping is felt as a triplet it will occupy 2 halfnotes, but the notation presents an error in writing it as 4 compound notes tied. So I concede a slight misunderstanding.


Above all else I appreciate that we can have a disagreement without having an argument.

Always a good time bantering with you.

I'm sure there will be more to come


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mark Brown said:


> Above all else I appreciate that we can have a disagreement without having an argument.
> 
> Always a good time bantering with you.
> 
> I'm sure there will be more to come


I'm all keyed up for savagery. Just watched The Northman last night. We can take a pint of each others blood and toast to Odin by the fire.


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