# Loud ass rock and roll. Orange + G12M or G12H?



## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

Loud ass rock and roll. I play mostly rhythm with the occasional lead. I'm looking for classic yet aggressive, with plenty of punch and tightness.

Orange + G12M or G12H?

And why?


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

I like the G12H myself. It matches really well with my JTM45 and the v30 I have it paired with. Never played an Orange, but I have no reason to think it would sound worse with it than with a Marshall.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Aren't these essentially the same speaker? Forgive me, I do occasionally get turned around when talking about Celestions and their codes. 

Never mind, went and looked it up. Yes indeed, they were originally *intended* to be essentially the same speaker, and do have some similar characteristics. 

G12M = Greenbacks. I haven't used them much. Depending on just HOW loud, can get looser in the bottom end.

G12H I have 4 of in a Marshall HW cab. Fantastic cab....sounds good with the Marshall, sounds good with the Hiwatt, sounds good with the Engl, sounded good with the Traynor I got rid of. Unfortunately, I didn't have this cab when I had my Orange. I did have an Avatar 2x12 with a V30 and a G12H30, loved how my Rockerverb50 sounded thru it. 

I think you'll be happy either way, the M will probably be a little crunchier at a little lower volume.


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## Cort Strummer (Feb 16, 2009)

I just like the tone of a 4x12 with Greenbacks in it.


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2010)

I'm going to say M but i really prefer an m + v30 combined. Best of all worlds.


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

You know, I've been trying to make this decision for about 2 years now and have been unable to decide which I want more. Numerous threads and polls on the internet have only produced a nearly split result.

Thus, I've decided that since I have 2 cabs... I'm going to load one with Ms and one with Hs.


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## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

4x12: all G12M (Greenback)
2x12: G12H & G12M


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

TubeStack said:


> 4x12: all G12M (Greenback)
> 2x12: G12H & G12M



i think this is key. Ina larger cab, the Greenbacks are ok and the cab will help with the low end. In a 2x12, you need the G12Hs to help provide low end possibly. This is my theory only partly researched.

In general, I am under the impression that greenbacks sound awesome with crunch but really lack in the bass on their own; so a bigger closed back cabinet is key to help with good tone for them.


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## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

bcmatt said:


> i think this is key. Ina larger cab, the Greenbacks are ok and the cab will help with the low end. In a 2x12, you need the G12Hs to help provide low end possibly. This is my theory only partly researched.
> 
> In general, I am under the impression that greenbacks sound awesome with crunch but really lack in the bass on their own; so a bigger closed back cabinet is key to help with good tone for them.


I found this recently with my new Z Best 2x12 cabinet. It's a huge sounding and thumping cab, but w/ two GB's it was lacking in chunk and bottom end definition. There was also speaker-breakup overkill - as much as I love GBs breakup and fuzz in a 4x12, in the 2x12 (using humbuckers) it took on an annoying, exaggerated level.

Mixed in one G12H though, and it sounds killer now.

Still love my 4x12 of Greenies, too. :rockon2:


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

I run mine trought a 4x12 Marshall 1060TV with Greenbacks..and i can say is DAMN..


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

TubeStack said:


> 4x12: all G12M (Greenback)
> 2x12: G12H & G12M


Makes a lot of sense, although I'd blow up a 2x12.

This is where I always run into problems. I look at Ms, and they're awesome for what I'm after. Then I look at Hs, and they're also awesome for what I'm after.

What I like about the idea of using all Ms is that the lower efficiency means I can get away with running my amp just a little hotter than I would with Hs, an with tube amps that's always a bonus. Plus, I have this theory that running a fullstack of Ms would mean 120w is being distributed such that each speaker is only taking 15w, which I assume will keep them below the point where they start to excessively break up and develop a loose bottom end (maybe this is why you prefer a 4x12 of them?).

(when running a 4x12 I typically pull 2x tubes and run the amp as an 80w)

The Hs on the other hand have the fuller frequency response. More bite and more bottom end. As a rhythm player I feel it's important to have a firm guitar tone, and I feel it's important to free up the midrange for the lead guitarist.

If I was made out of money I'd have three cabs (two loaded with Ms and one with Hs) so I could mix and match as appropriate.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Free up which part of the midrange? Low mid, center mid, upper mid?


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## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

+1 to the G12H30. The larger magnet structure will maintain the focus and punchiness at gigging volume levels long after the Greenback will be starting to get somewhat woolly/muddy, especially in 1x12 or 2x12 cabs. Greenbacks will have a higher threshold in 4x12, but I'd still opt for the H. A good compromise may be a combination of the two, the H and V30 might even be better...


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

Budda said:


> Free up which part of the midrange? Low mid, center mid, upper mid?


I like it when the other guy uses a Marshall.



gtone said:


> +1 to the G12H30. The larger magnet structure will maintain the focus and punchiness at gigging volume levels long after the Greenback will be starting to get somewhat woolly/muddy, especially in 1x12 or 2x12 cabs. Greenbacks will have a higher threshold in 4x12, but I'd still opt for the H. A good compromise may be a combination of the two, the H and V30 might even be better...


Your last couple of sentences are hinting towards why after two years I still haven't made up my mind...


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

Would you guys say these descriptions are accurate?



> G12M
> classic, warm British tone. This is the speaker that defined “smoky,” that colouration of midrange tones sought after by blues and blues rock soloists. It has bass that manages to be fat and round-toned without being overpowering, strong mids, and nicely restrained highs. It may be one of the best speakers you can buy for blues tone.





> G12H
> The bass is firm, with an aggressive edge to it, not round like the Greenback. The highs are bright and crisp, also with an aggressive edge to them, like. And in true British fashion, the midrange is coloured, too. Not smoky, like a Greenback, but an interesting, textured tone, rich with harmonics. This is a very efficient, loud speaker and if your Blues Junior is getting buried, this might just be the thing to unearth it. If you like mellow, stay away. If you like to peel their eyelids back with your bridge pickup or put a serious edge on your neck or ‘bucker tone, this one’s for you.


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## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

Those sound pretty accurate, to me.

I have found G12H's on their own to be lacking in personality, a little boring, and overly punchy/aggressive. 

Can literally feel like someone's poking something in your ear when you snap or hit a note with a sharp attack.

Also, while I'm liking a G12M & G12H mix in my 2x12 right now, I have tried a mix of G12M's and G12H's in a 4x12 ('X' pattern) and found the two G12H's overpowered and killed all the Greenback personality of the cab. Really didn't like it and pulled out the G12H's right away, went to four G12M's and loved it.


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

I'm leaning more towards going with G12Ms.

The descriptions above have pretty much sealed the deal. The G12M quote is accurately describing how I hear my tone in my head.

The G12H quote is accurately describing what I'm trying to move away from.


Now... could anyone describe the difference in tone between the regular and heritage version of the G12M?

And, in your opinion is the difference worth paying nearly double the price?


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## tunebox (Oct 26, 2009)

*Neither ...*

Celestion Alnico Blues ONLY!! for this boy ... :bow:


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## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

screamingdaisy said:


> ... Now... could anyone describe the difference in tone between the regular and heritage version of the G12M?
> 
> And, in your opinion is the difference worth paying nearly double the price?


I haven't tried the Heritage version yet, but they're spoken of quite highly over at legendarytones.com. Actually, now that I think of it, there's a useful article  that discusses some major general Celestion types over there.

Their article discussing the Heritage Celestions specifically is here.

Down the road, I may give the Heritage and/or Scumback versions of the G12M a try, though I'm very happy with the regular RI, sounds absolutely killer (took some serious break-in, though). 

At some point, ya gotta stop obsessing and start rocking, eh? LOL!


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

TubeStack said:


> At some point, ya gotta stop obsessing and start rocking, eh? LOL!


I agree.

It's actually the efficiency that had me wondering. Heritages are 96db compared to the regular versions 98db. 96db means I can nudge my amp just a tad hotter while maintaining the same overall volume.

Not sure if 96db is worth the extra $400 to fill a 4x12 however...


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## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

screamingdaisy said:


> I agree...


I was mainly speaking to myself, there. 

Regarding the 2 db difference - if that's the only more appealing factor, I don't think it's worth the extra $$$.

If you do want to go the Heritage route, and don't mind buying used, you should check the classifieds here and at TGP - I've seen pairs of Heritage Greenbacks sell over there for reasonable prices (including shipping), pretty much the same price as a new pair of RI's.


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## Cort Strummer (Feb 16, 2009)

Here is another option that are cheaper, more efficient and higher quality. You should look at an Eminence Private Jack (101 dB @ 96 Hz) which is meant to be a clone of the Greenback: http://www.eminence-speaker.com/gui...odel=PRIVATEJACK&speaker_size=12&SUB_CAT_ID=4

IMO Eminence speakers are built way better then any Celestion, and as I have recently found out Celestion now makes most of their speakers in China. Eminence are Made in the USA and the Red Coat series cones are actually made in the UK.


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## Cort Strummer (Feb 16, 2009)

I forgot to add, if you order through loudspeakers.ca you get a 7 year Warranty.


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

Cort Strummer said:


> Here is another option that are cheaper, more efficient and higher quality. You should look at an Eminence Private Jack (101 dB @ 96 Hz) which is meant to be a clone of the Greenback: http://www.eminence-speaker.com/gui...odel=PRIVATEJACK&speaker_size=12&SUB_CAT_ID=4
> 
> IMO Eminence speakers are built way better then any Celestion, and as I have recently found out Celestion now makes most of their speakers in China. Eminence are Made in the USA and the Red Coat series cones are actually made in the UK.


More efficient is the total wrong way. Last thing I need is something that'll make a 120w amp _louder_.

That, and the extra power handling means it'll be harder to overdrive the speaker.


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## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

screamingdaisy said:


> More efficient is the total wrong way. Last thing I need is something that'll make a 120w amp _louder_.
> 
> That, and the extra power handling means it'll be harder to overdrive the speaker.


Exactly. And it's "like" the real thing, but not the real thing.


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## Cort Strummer (Feb 16, 2009)

Actually it is better then the real thing, I dont know why some people want to push the speaker to distortion. Why not go with a good speaker that wont distort or break up and leave the natural distortion to pushing the power tubes. It actually sounds about 10x better and a lot easier on your gear. Otherwise if you gig\tour a lot you will be replacing speakers quite often, compared to a speaker that wont break up.


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

Cort Strummer said:


> Actually it is better then the real thing, I dont know why some people want to push the speaker to distortion. Why not go with a good speaker that wont distort or break up and leave the natural distortion to pushing the power tubes. It actually sounds about 10x better and a lot easier on your gear. Otherwise if you gig\tour a lot you will be replacing speakers quite often, compared to a speaker that wont break up.


My power amp's ability to handle power far exceeds my preamp's ability to create power. I think that's why Oranges are known for their aggressive breakup... the power amp won't squash enough to give a creamy overdrive.

I'm also thinking that a little bit of cone breakup will be alright. Since it'll add it's own crunch to the mix it might let me clean up my preamp a bit further. 

Besides, it's not like I'll be able to drive them to the ratty edge... I'll get told to turn down long before that happens.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Cort, not 'getting it' is perfectly OK.....but speaker breakup is a component of _good and desirable_ distortion, that we've all heard a gazillion times on the radio. I want it, and have multiple cabs that do it. I think SD is after the same thing  That said, I'm no touring pro but there are lots who have speaker breakup integral to their sound 9kkhhd sdsre :wave:

edit: had this open a while, written before SD's reply was seen.


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## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

Cort Strummer said:


> ... I dont know why some people want to push the speaker to distortion...


It sounds so sweet when you get it happening right.


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## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

What I'm wondering now, with my own setup (G12M/G12H mix in 2x12), is which speaker to mike when gigging. I've always had a 4x12 with four of the same speakers at gigs, with a mic on one of them.

I'm thinking the G12H would be a more clear, punchy tone to cut through and project, as much as I love the vibe of the Greenback.

Would miking both speakers be possible, with one mic on each speaker? Would this create feedback/mix/phase problems, or whatever?


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## Andy (Sep 23, 2007)

Just to mention something about the Private Jack, most Eminence speakers have a higher resonant frequency -- usually around 95hz, versus the Celestions' 75hz. A higher resonant frequency means the speaker will break up much sooner, especially when coupled with a very short linear excursion (<1mm usually). This is why EVM-12L or Delta Pro 12s don't break up at all -- they have a resonance of 55hz and a 3mm Xmax, which allows them to handle incredible amounts of power without breaking up at all.

Anyway, you might want to try some Private Jacks out -- despite their higher efficiency, the earlier breakup may be appealing to you.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i suspect you may have an issue with inverse reactive current due to the offset unilateral phase detractors in your unit. the phetronolic loop in that particular amp requires a very specific pariscosity. 
you can find it by using the formula P=2.5C X 6.7/n 
*"n"* being the diethical evolute of retrograde temperature - phase disposition, and "*C*" standing for the chalmondoloid angular grid coefficient written on the back panel somewhere. anyhow, i think if you employ the careful use of a synchronized cogneal grammeter (a setting of 4 or 5 should get you pretty close for starters) you'll find a cryptonaptic polling shear within the wavelengths where sinusoidal deplenaration would _normally_ occur. after that, it's just a matter of shifting the pariscosity along the grid until you reach a point just before the output stator begins framling and becomes unstable. i usually adjust to that point and back off 1/4 turn and that does the trick for me every time. ymmv of course, tone being subjective and all.


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