# How many amps are hampered by poorly-chosen speakers?



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

This is not a specific complaint about any given amp. rather, it is a general query concerning something that may happen more often than we suspect.

If you look back through the annals of amp history, there have been all sorts of amps that shared the same basic structure and tube/control complement as the legendary amps, but they have none of the reputation of those other amps. Why did this happen? In some cases, there was simply not enough public profile, and these gems show up as "pawnshop prizes". But in other cases, the speakers, or output transformer, prevented the amp from showing its best side. Given that considerable production-cost savings could be realized by cutting some corners in those two areas, many amps were marketed that had good guts, but poor showroom sound.

So, as the market fills up with ever more amp manufacturers, both high and low end, I wonder how many amps there are out there that have poorly-chosen speakers or cabinets that either play up the poor features of the amp, or fail to show off the finer features.

Any experiences you'd like to share of ugly-duckling amps that sprang to life with a change of speakers?


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Your observation is right on the money. This should be an interesting thread. Thanks.

My first amp, a single volume control Harmony from the '60s, bought at a church rummage sale for $2.50, sprang to life when the stock speaker was bypassed and the signal sent to...I think it must have been a Garnet cabinet. It really should not have failed to impress, it had the most basic of tube circuitry, and sounded okay when cranked on its own, but had nothing at less than full volume through its own speaker.

Those awful '70s solid state Yamaha bass and guitar combo amps, of which I had several right up to the mid '90s, sounded like supreme crapola until I blew the original speakers and replaced them with whatever I could get me hands on, most often Celestions if I remember correctly. That usually happened fast as the stock speakers were horrid trash. Then they sounded passable, given what they were. I was playing dives back then, so it didn't matter to me or the terrible rooms.

Virtually every second stock amp seems to be mis-matched with the speakers, even my beloved Traynors sometimes.

I look forward to more in this thread.

Peace, Mooh.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

_Especially_ Traynor (at least the old ones). 

(I have to say though, my old Trace Elliot bass stack sounded great with its stock speakers, which I think were unbranded Fanes, so it's hardly surprising.)


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Ya speakers seem to be an afterthought in a lot of cases. But that is how they keep the prices low on the newer amps, and that seems to be what a lot of people want. But nothing will ruin the sound of a good amp like a badly chosen speaker. I like how some companies like Vox offer some choices with the speakers in some models.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

devnulljp said:


> Traynor! _Especially_ Traynor (at least the old ones).


I knew someone would beat me to it. Oh well, it still has to be emphasized. My 70s YGL-3a was an hidden gem to me until I tried it through a friend's 2x12 cab. It always floated between crappy and bearable. I don't even know what those soon-to-be-blown speakers in his old Garnet cab were, but suddenly my old Traynor sounded great! I wasn't in as desperate need of a new amp nearly as much as I thought; I just needed different speakers.


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## FrankyFarGone (Dec 8, 2008)

Hi!
Does jensens C12q's and C10q's are consider good drivers?
And what do you pepole think of those?
Thanks
Frank


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

I think they make more difference than any other single componant.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

When I bought my Dr Z Stangray I also ordered the 2X12 Openback with Celestion Blues as that was the recommendation. The cabinet got back ordered so in the meantime I used my Z best closed back cab with the V30 and G12H30. It was ok but when I played it through the blues that amp just came alive. 
As well when I bought my Carmen Ghia I had intentions of using the Z best closed back but a few days of playing it through the blues and I realized that was the magic I was looking for. So now I've ordered an openback 2X12 with Golds for the ray and I'll use the blues specifically for the Ghia. I've only been learning in the past couple years how much speakers matter.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> When I bought my Dr Z Stangray I also ordered the 2X12 Openback with Celestion Blues as that was the recommendation. The cabinet got back ordered so in the meantime I used my Z best closed back cab with the V30 and G12H30. It was ok but when I played it through the blues that amp just came alive.
> As well when I bought my Carmen Ghia I had intentions of using the Z best closed back but a few days of playing it through the blues and I realized that was the magic I was looking for. So now I've ordered an openback 2X12 with Golds for the ray and I'll use the blues specifically for the Ghia. I've only been learning in the past couple years how much speakers matter.


You must have some pretty strong beliefs on the matter, because that is over $1000 worth of speakers for those 2 2x12 cabs. I guess you put your money where your mouth is on that one.
I'm not criticizing. It makes sense that you would want to get the speakers that will bring the most out of your amp. If we are going to invest so much in our tone for the whole package, why limit it by skimping on speakers.
I have one Blue and one G12H in my DC30 combo and I love the sound. Of course, I would want to make pretty sure that the blue is the best for the job before getting any more for other applications. I hate wasting money for nothing.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The response so far is pretty much what I would expect. And just to make sure we are on the same page, what I'm talking about is not "crappy" vs "good" speakers, but speakers which are a good match to the qualities of the amp. For example, seems to me that a speaker with extended high end is much better suited to an amp intended to be played for glassy clean highs, than for an amp intended to be played for high-gain sounds.


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## ccuwan (Jul 9, 2008)

I got my education from the 80s consumer electronics industry and I remember how important the speakers and speaker cabinets were to the sound quality. Speakers (and their cabs) were the "weak link" in the hifi chain. Only the cartridge in a turntable had similar influence over the ultimate sound. Speakers and cartridges were the conversion points in the system where mechanical energy was converted to electronic or the opposite. Rule of thumb was, spend half your budget on speakers and the other half on everything else.

The musical amplifier industry alternatively, has put all the emphasis on the electronics....speakers are almost an afterthought. Fender in their vintage stuff used multiple speaker suppliers and the cab size was determined by the electronics requirement and economical slicing up of a piece of wood. The Deluxe Reverb actually came in different cabinet sizes in different years.

I'm trying to think this tone thing through from a speaker perspective. I'm using a basic push/pull 60w tube amp. My speaker cab however is solid pine (even the baffle board). There are no screws in the cab other than those holding the speakers in place and the baffle board is dadoed into the sides and top for a tight connection. I am constructing a removable sealing back panel for the cab to hear what sonic changes take place when its installed. I guessing that without proper muting material in the sealed cab it will sound like crap but who knows unless you try. I willing to bet Fender never did as sealing the cab would make the SR heavier, run hotter and not be as loud.

Anyone that has ever played an acoustic guitar knows that the amazing sound you get live from a quality instrument cannot be accurately recorded and reproduced....or amplified in fact. The same is true for amplified sound. The most musical part of the process is the final stage, the speaker cabinet and the drivers. I believe that the resonance and character of a great speaker cab cannot be recorded and is the ticket to the elusive tone we all speak of, not the amplifier.

I guess what I'm suggesting is that not only is it essential to properly match speakers to an amp but as well to match the cabinet properly to the speakers and of the three primary elements of the amplification process, the amplifier itself has the smallest impact on the final sound.

I believe that as musicians we are far too quick to ignore the speaker and cabinet portion of this process and I'm always curious to hear what others have learned. 

Ray (hope I'm still on topic)


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

This seems to be a manufacturer failing not just in guitar amps, but everything.

It never ceases to amaze me at how $4000 plasma TV's can come with.... $0.89 worth of speakers in them 

Cheers!


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

extremely important, and, as mentioned above, often ignored.

Our other guitar player dusted off his old Fender 100w tube PA amp head (looks like a Showman with 4 channels) awhile ago. It sounds really good as a guitar amp. In the search for a speaker cab, he ran it through everything we had around: my Marshall Celestion cab (which I thought would sound the best, me being a Marshall kinda guy), my '70 Dual Showman 2x15 JBL cab (this should have been the ticket, right?), a 2x12 EV Proline cab, a 1x15 JBL E130 cab, a 1x18 BW Traynor cab, a 1x18 Marsland cab, a couple of PA cabs, with and without horns, maybe a couple of others. What he finally decided on, and what sounds absolutely the best, is our bass player's spare 2x12 Fender Bassman cab.

Most guys, however, don't get the chance to mess with all these cabs. But ultimately it's well worth it if you can drag your head into the store and start testing different speakers and cabs.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I'd be really interested to hear from any contemporary amp makers regarding their decision model about what to include and how they go about selecting it. Not to attack it or anything, but really more to know how to complement it, or to know what might be left out OR included in that decision tree.


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

mhammer said:


> The response so far is pretty much what I would expect. And just to make sure we are on the same page, what I'm talking about is not "crappy" vs "good" speakers, but speakers which are a good match to the qualities of the amp. For example, seems to me that a speaker with extended high end is much better suited to an amp intended to be played for glassy clean highs, than for an amp intended to be played for high-gain sounds.


An interesting experiment is those limited edition Fender Hot Rod Deluxe amps that come with different speakers; a couple of Celestion models, a Jensen. The regular model has an Eminence. I'd be curious to hear of someone who works in a music store and has been able to compare them. The amps have only cosmetic differences otherwise.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

i think that a suprising amount of amps are probably hampered by poor speaker and cab specs.

i'd like to run my JSX through a wack of cabinets to see if i can find something that improves it further.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

mhammer said:


> The response so far is pretty much what I would expect. And just to make sure we are on the same page, what I'm talking about is not "crappy" vs "good" speakers, but speakers which are a good match to the qualities of the amp. For example, seems to me that a speaker with extended high end is much better suited to an amp intended to be played for glassy clean highs, than for an amp intended to be played for high-gain sounds.


The best example I can muster was with the mid '70's Deluxe reverb I use for gigging presently. When I got it, it had the dreaded Utah orange and silver labeled stock speaker in it....aka a piece of crap. I sold the amp to a friend who immediately put a Celestion in it...a few months later he came knockin' saying that he couldn't get it sounding right...just so happened I had a Deluxe Reissue on hand and we traded...he loved the reissue and I was stuck with this so-so sounding amp. I had previously blackfaced it and recapped it before he bought it so there wasn't any need to do more internal work.
I decided to drop a new Jensen P12N that I had in it and presto! the amp sounded amazing! So good in fact, that I haven't even considered swapping it out since.......a match made in heaven:smile:


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

nonreverb said:


> I decided to drop a new Jensen P12N that I had in it and presto! the amp sounded amazing! So good in fact, that I haven't even considered swapping it out since.......a match made in heaven:smile:


That out of a 125?


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

shoretyus said:


> That out of a 125?


nope...it was a new one.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

So what do you think would be the tone difference between the P12n and the C12n that I ripped out of the 125? 

I like it but at times think it is a bit much on the treble side. Well I find myself dialing it back a bit. I guess a side by side comparison is in order?


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Geek said:


> This seems to be a manufacturer failing not just in guitar amps, but everything.
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me at how $4000 plasma TV's can come with.... $0.89 worth of speakers in them
> 
> Cheers!


ohééi would'nt say it's true to all..my 46" new sony as INSANE sounding speakers in it. But in msot case these TV are met to be hooked to home theatre systems, that's the main reason some might have crappy sound.an some of the very high end TVs don't even have speapers, my uncle bought a 60" LCD from some weird German company i never heard of, and it does'nt even have speakers. you'de think that a 7500$ US tv would do!..but no...


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Earlier in the year I picked up a Deluxe Reverb Reissue with the (at the time) stock Eminence speaker. The amp sounds very, very nice - but doesn't blow my socks off anywhere near as much as my Princetons do.

I've not read much good about the stock Eminence anywhere..... the Jensen definitely has higher opinions. The only other 8 ohm 12's I have around are Celestion (4 holers). Any idea how to mount into the 8-screw baffle without drilling more holes in the speaker or cutting off the baffle screws?

Also, I've been watching the emporiums for something interesting to try but haven't seen anything lately - anybody sitting on a nice 12" taht would go well with my DRRI?.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

While I don't have any speakers that I'm ready to part with I can tell you that I have a DRRI and didn't like the stock speaker either. I tried a few different ones and really liked the Eminence Red White and Blues (only when it was cranked) I finally settled on a Tone Tubby Ceramic. Sounds awesome. I also hear that the Eminence Cannabis Rex is another favorite for the DRRI.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> Earlier in the year I picked up a Deluxe Reverb Reissue with the (at the time) stock Eminence speaker. The amp sounds very, very nice - but doesn't blow my socks off anywhere near as much as my Princetons do.
> 
> I've not read much good about the stock Eminence anywhere..... the Jensen definitely has higher opinions. The only other 8 ohm 12's I have around are Celestion (4 holers). Any idea how to mount into the 8-screw baffle without drilling more holes in the speaker or cutting off the baffle screws?
> 
> Also, I've been watching the emporiums for something interesting to try but haven't seen anything lately - anybody sitting on a nice 12" taht would go well with my DRRI?.


Same thing here. I put a Scumback H75 HP in and it made a WORLD of difference. It's become my #1 amp and I've got some nice stuff competing with it. The holes were already in the frame, I just had to poke through the gasket. I found the Jensen (came with it, it's the blonde version btw) to be just a little to shrill but the Scummie, which is already well broken in, was perfect.

edit: I also installed a Beam Blocker which I really like and have in all my amps and cabs.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Interesting thread... I did a speaker swap myself the other night. I got a backface super reverb in a trade a while ago and never really liked the amp that much... it was okay, but nothing special. I attributed that partly to the Jensen reissue C10R speakers that someone had put in it somewhere along the way... the CTS Alnicos were long gone.

Looking to improve the amp (and get some of that Alnico compression) I purchased a quad of Weber Signature 10S speakers that then sat on a shelf for 2 years as I didn't have opportunity or motivation to get around to swapping them. Well, after selling two of the C10R speakers out of the super recently, I decided it was time to swap in the Webers.. WOW!... different amp entirely... quieter (so I can crank it more), better balance of frequencies and a nice compression and break up when I crank the amp a bit. Why didn't I do this 2 years ago???

As to why manufacturers choose the speakers they do- I'd say it's a combination of factors:

-cost: these guys are in business to make money, cost certainly plays a part in the decision making process. Fender is a prime example... the Jensen speaker they put in a Deluxe Reverb is wayyy to heavy duty in my opinion. But, they also use it in the Twin, the Hot Rods, etc... and buying 1 model in bulk is cheaper than buying several models in smaller quantities.

-brand recognition: Celestion and Jensen are brand names that people recognize... they read about the players they like using these speakers in magazine articles, online etc. so it brings a legitimacy to a product to have a recognizeable brand of speaker in an amp. Webers, Scumbacks, etc. are great speakers but the majority of players don't recognize the names unless they are gearheads like a lot of us. Same as guitars that use Seymour Duncan pickups when there are lots of other great pickups out there from Fralin, Wolftone, JS Moore, etc, etc.

-tradition: This one is a bit different but I think it plays a part. If you're building a Marshallesque amplifier and you want a traditional Marshall type sound you probably want a Celestion in there. It's part of the recipe for that type of tone.. same as Fender/Jensen, PB&J, etc.

-tone: Obviously if you're chasing a particular tone as an amp designer/builder you want to select a speaker that's going to get you there. A Celestion Greenback and a EVM12L are radically different and a builder is going to choose the one (in combination with the other factors I've listed) that suits what he's looking for.

There's my 2 cents!

gtrguy


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

ccuwan said:


> I got my education from the 80s consumer electronics industry and I remember how important the speakers and speaker cabinets were to the sound quality. Speakers (and their cabs) were the "weak link" in the hifi chain. Only the cartridge in a turntable had similar influence over the ultimate sound. Speakers and cartridges were the conversion points in the system where mechanical energy was converted to electronic or the opposite. Rule of thumb was, spend half your budget on speakers and the other half on everything else.
> 
> The musical amplifier industry alternatively, has put all the emphasis on the electronics....speakers are almost an afterthought. Fender in their vintage stuff used multiple speaker suppliers and the cab size was determined by the electronics requirement and economical slicing up of a piece of wood. The Deluxe Reverb actually came in different cabinet sizes in different years.
> 
> ...


I admit that most of my experience is with solder but I have read some of the experts over the years and so maybe my .02 will prove useful.

The consensus seems to be that the dimensions of a cab for guitar use are not really critical at all. The reason is that a normal lead guitar puts out very little energy below 100 hz or so. Yet it is only at frequencies BELOW that point where wavelengths and dimensions become important! So for bass guitar, PA and hifi it is VERY important but for lead guitar its almost irrelevant. Nobody worries about the volume of a bass reflex cab or the size of its port if you only intend to mount a tweeter in it.

Still, there are some other factors that are very important even with regular guitar frequencies. First off, the cabinet must be as rigid as possible. If the walls can flex even a tiny bit they will flex in sympathy with the low notes and suck the life out of them. In the 50's some of the high end audiophiles would build large cabinets with two layers of 3/4" no-voids plywood spaced by at least another 1/2" and filled with dry sand. They weighed a ton as you could imagine but they sounded COSMIC! Yet they were normally driven with 40 watts or even 10-15!

Second, open or closed back will make a huge difference. Closed means tighter and more directional. Open fills all around the cab, making it seem louder.

Shiny wood surfaces will colour the highs by the way they reflect the waves. This can be both a good and bad thing, depending on whether or not you understood it was happening and if the placement of acoustic batting was random or by design. There was a rule about not putting the stuff on walls that faced each other but my memory may be faulty. Perhaps someone else can chime in on that one.

Grill cloth can block some highs. Old fashioned cloth was denser and gave more blocking effect. The new thin weave black gauze is virtually transparent. No wonder guys like Dave like using Beam Blockers! Vintage grill cloth might be more pleasing to them.

There's a wealth of material on this subject in books and on the Net but pretty well only from a hifi perspective. This makes it mandatory that you study it carefully to be sure that it applies to a guitar speaker application.

One thing's for sure, after reading up on this stuff you will quickly understand that there is no way on earth that these new girly man lame ass 4-10 bass cabinets can compete for both tone and volume with a vintage Traynor 2-15 box, the kind that was as big as a small refrigerator with wheels along the bottom edge and handles at the top so you could dolly it onto the stage!

Today those girly man cabs need a couple of hundred watts to be heard in even small clubs. The old vintage cabs were run with maybe 50 tube watts or less and would fill a high school gymnasium! While making some teacher chaperone scream at the band to turn down!:smile:

One final point, if the cab is not as much of a factor then the speakers themselves become even more so! 

Ah, nostalgia is never what it used to be...

:food-smiley-004:


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I always read about people putting in new speakers and saying "it sounds like a whole different amp!"

i went from stock peavey sheffield XXX's in my XXX slant cab to WGS British Leads. i did NOT notice any huge difference - the difference was audible, but not huge. they did not make my amp sound drastically different - nor did the retube (granted it hasnt been biased professionally). overall the amp sounds better then stock, yes - but i wouldnt say that a speaker swap and a retube drastically changed the sound. I can say with confidence, however, that the retube and the speaker swap have made the amp more into what i want - something that can play metal and hang with the big boys.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Budda said:


> I always read about people putting in new speakers and saying "it sounds like a whole different amp!"
> 
> i went from stock peavey sheffield XXX's in my XXX slant cab to WGS British Leads. i did NOT notice any huge difference - the difference was audible, but not huge. they did not make my amp sound drastically different - nor did the retube (granted it hasnt been biased professionally). overall the amp sounds better then stock, yes - but i wouldnt say that a speaker swap and a retube drastically changed the sound. I can say with confidence, however, that the retube and the speaker swap have made the amp more into what i want - something that can play metal and hang with the big boys.


I guess that may be, as they say, because tone is in the fingers.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

and i have so much tone in my fingers that no matter what i run, i sound exactly like me?

someone hand me a beer *L*


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

*speakers*

The speakers can be the weak link, and it blows me away why a company would built a decent amp and then cut costs on the speaker.

I got a Orange 30R and after using it awhile, i have came to the conclusion that, the 10 inch speaker in this a a no name.
I want to change it out.

I have a Vox amp and the little 8 inch bulldog speaker in it, and it can take everything i can give it. But the orange cannot.its not bad for cleans, but dont dare try to drive it hard.

So i hope to find a decent 10 inch speaker, sometime and see if i can bring this amp back to life.

Rick


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## JSX/6505 (Nov 18, 2007)

A big reason why I play half stacks. Cabinet/speaker swaps in an instant.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

provided that you can find the cab or speaker in a cab stock, or know a friend who's swapped his .


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## JSX/6505 (Nov 18, 2007)

Budda said:


> provided that you can find the cab or speaker in a cab stock, or know a friend who's swapped his .


Nah, I just own three different cabs all loaded with different speakers. Or if you want to experiment, buy and load any combination into a cab.


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## ccuwan (Jul 9, 2008)

Thanks for the feedback Wild Bill. 

In reading your post, it appears that I may have been further ahead to do the cab in particle board as it would be more rigid than the pine and the resonance of the pine has no impact on the frequencies generated by a 6 string electric. Possibly I will add some reinforcement to the pine cab.

But this brings me back to my original point. Has anyone ever taken the time to plant more than one head in front of the same cab to determine how much of a difference exists from one head to the next. Granted, various heads will have different features (and overdrive characteristics) but I’d be curious to hear a Fender head driving an top quality speaker cab followed my a Marshall into the same cab. Is the difference as great as that of driving either head into more than one speaker enclosure. 

Are primary tonal differences Marshall to Fender or are they actually Celestion to Jensen. 

Ray


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## Guest (Dec 30, 2008)

I think the most mismatched amp/speaker combination I ever had was back in the mid 90's I tried one of those tube/solid hybrids. It was called a Rock-Pro 1000 I think. 1X12 S/S 100 watt combo with a 12AX7 in the pre-amp. It had an Emminece speaker in it which is almost always a bad choice anyway. It was acceptable at lower volumes with a fairly decent and passable Fendery chime but once you started to push the amp it would start to fart and flab all over the place. Diming the amp produced absolutely horrible abominations of bad sound. I had a couple of spare Celestions around and decided to swap in the V30. (I think it was a V30) Voila! Problem solved and the amp rawked at volume. I never would have known it could rawk if I hadn't done the swap. Actually that was a pretty good little amp for a solid state. If they had put a better speaker in it the amp might still be in the line-up today.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

A reasonable question.

Speakers have "personalities" (as do cabs, to some extent), but folks like yourself would like to know if the personality of the speaker is so strong as to override the personality of the amp, or whether the amp's personality is strong enough to still show itself over and above what the speaker does.

The answer to that is, I suppose, yes and no.

Would any two or three amps, set to clean, at modest volume, yield fundamentally different sounds from the same speaker/s? Not likely, in my view. Any sonic differences would stem from small differences in toneshaping (easily overcome with EQ adjustment), and from the extent to which the player themselves is exploiting either the top or bottom end.

Of course, once the amp starts to get cranked, the rules of the game change considerably. Speaker breakup is added to whatever distortion is provided by the pedal chain, the preamp stage, the power stage, and the output transformer (if there is one). Consider, though, that speakers not only respond to the amp, but they also serve a sort of filtering function, by introducing not only limits to the bandwidth at the top and bottom, but resonances and dips. As many of us here have found over the years, effects like phasers, wahs, autowahs, and flangers tend to have more pronounced effects - more "in your face" tonal consequences - when the signal they receive is already chock full of harmonic content. The very same phenomenon is true of speakers, when it comes to that filtering role they serve. The net effect is that speaker personality will begin to show itself more robustly as amp clipping goes up. On top of that, as volume goes up, the manner in which, and the extent to which, the speaker breaks up will also colour the tone.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

shoretyus said:


> So what do you think would be the tone difference between the P12n and the C12n


Any help on that question?


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## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

First off my hats off to mhammer for asking one of the best questions I've seen on any gtr related forum... good observation bro.

Crate amps spring to mind as some of their tube amps are not that bad art all... however in my experience the speakers were of poor quality and did not shine with the amp. Another is Randall in some of their amps the speakers could be a lot better. Now that they hve Eminence in their boxes it's improoved them immensly and IMHO has allowed randall to really shine in tha last few years... and yes Traynor definetly Traynor. 

Amp design in general up until the last 10 years or so and even now has not really changed that much. I've allways been a big supporter of the right speaker for the right amp for the right purpose... and to my ears it's Tubes, Power Tranny, and Speakers that effects tone the most.

Craig


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

shoretyus said:


> Any help on that question?


Here Pat...check this article out. It might help answer your question.
http://www.webervst.com/sptalk.html


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

KHINGPYNN said:


> First off my hats off to mhammer for asking one of the best questions I've seen on any gtr related forum... good observation bro.


Thanks, Craig.

My first decent amp was a 2 x 12" Peavey Classic I bought brand spanking new from Steve's in 1973 (they were solid-state/tube hybrids in them days). Good amp but the speakers were awful. Well, not *awful* awful, but just plain weird. They had one set of characteristics until the volume got up to 3 or 4, and then turned into something else entirely different above that. So, you'd practice in someone's basement at the one volume and memorize the tone control settings, then when you'd gig you'd have to change everything around on the fly. Irritating to say the least. So, I've been grumbling about this issue for 35 years. If it's a good question, it's because it has had a lot of time to "ripen".

My very best for '09.

Mark


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## Michelle (Aug 21, 2006)

I'm just glad I can turn off those cheesy horns in my bass cabs, my girly-girl cabs I guess.  :smilie_flagge17:


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

While some speaker changes may be benificial , too often I see changes made when the amp/cab is new and the speaker(s) has not had a chance to break in . I think it's important to take the time to get those new speakers loosened up before making a decision .


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

That's a good and entirely fair point.

So how much breaking in do amp manufacturers do before deciding that amp X really shines when using speaker Y?


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## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

break in time is minimal if done right... check out the celestion site they have a really well described breakin technique that works... it take only a few minutes.

Taken from the Dr Decibel Q&A on the Celestion site...



> How do I break in my speakers?
> 
> Important Note! Before breaking it in it's advisable to "warm up" the speaker gently for a few minutes with low-level playing or background hum.
> 
> ...


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

mhammer said:


> That's a good and entirely fair point.
> 
> So how much breaking in do amp manufacturers do before deciding that amp X really shines when using speaker Y?


Good question and I guess it depends on the manufacturers R&D dept. and how thorough they try different speakers and break them in in their research . Production amps probably not so much and cost being a factor too but it is common for a lot of boutique builders to mention the breaking in of the speaker and some other components such as the signal caps before the amp will be at it's best . I know I found this to be true with my Carr Slant 6V and a Dr. Z Maz jr . 

One thing that surprised me was when I was told by Paul Rixon or Robin Amps in Florida that Mercury Magnetics had an artical on their site about how their transformers actually had a breaking in period too......something I would have never considered . It's possable like guitars that use and age can improve the sound of an amp when you factor in different components and how use/breaking them in effects them :smile:


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## Aesop (Jan 3, 2009)

I had a GK bass rig c/w 800RB with 41T and 115RB. I sold the head seperate to some guy who was going to use it with an old traynor cab. One week later he called me to see if I still had the cabs as his traynor sound bad with this head. When you get a properly matched rig it should remain together. I still had the cabs and he now has the complete unit.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

One thing that surprised me was when I was told by Paul Rixon or Robin Amps in Florida that Mercury Magnetics had an artical on their site about how their transformers actually had a breaking in period too......something I would have never considered . It's possable like guitars that use and age can improve the sound of an amp when you factor in different components and how use/breaking them in effects them 

Hmmm, this is similar to that discussion regarding coupling capacitors and whether they sound different...Since a transformer is not a mechanical device, the only way it's tone could be altered was if it's core somehow got permanently magnetized or it suffered some heat related alteration. I suppose it's possible but I can see how this subject could be hotly debated...


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

I've heard where amp techs say rust on the plates is a good thing too . Very debatable subject I agree , but maybe some of these guys know more then we do about some of the magic that effects amps . :smile:


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

I've heard where amp techs say rust on the transformer plates is a good thing too . Very debatable subject I agree , but maybe some of these guys know more then we do about some of the magic that effects amps . :smile:


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

nitehawk55 said:


> I've heard where amp techs say rust on the transformer plates is a good thing too . Very debatable subject I agree , but maybe some of these guys know more then we do about some of the magic that effects amps . :smile:


True, but as stated with the capacitor debate on here, these guys are also in the biz. of makin' money...suffice to say it's subjective and I'm sure many on here could chime in with differing opinions on the subject.:food-smiley-004:


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

nonreverb said:


> One thing that surprised me was when I was told by Paul Rixon or Robin Amps in Florida that Mercury Magnetics had an artical on their site about how their transformers actually had a breaking in period too......something I would have never considered . It's possable like guitars that use and age can improve the sound of an amp when you factor in different components and how use/breaking them in effects them
> 
> Hmmm, this is similar to that discussion regarding coupling capacitors and whether they sound different...Since a transformer is not a mechanical device, the only way it's tone could be altered was if it's core somehow got permanently magnetized or it suffered some heat related alteration. I suppose it's possible but I can see how this subject could be hotly debated...


That's the thing. What exactly IS it that is being "broken in"? Until one knows, it can be the case that the straegy for breaking in is doing no such thing, or that the break-in is sub-optimal.

I remember a number of years ago, a guy I knew in Montreal relayed a story, perhaps apocryphal, that he had heard while studying classical guitar under Alexander Lagoya in Europe. It is common knowledge that guitars need to be "broken in" too. It seems one luthier in Europe decided to automate the process, and set up a jig/bracket that would hold a number of his guitars in a circle, while a mechanical hand in the centre revolved and gently "strummed" each guitar in succession as it moved around. The builder inferred that if he left the instruments set up this way over, say, a weekend with the motor/hand running 24/7, that would be equivalent to many months of playing. By all rights the guitars should be "broken in" over the space of a weekend. When he returned to try them out, he found them to be largely unplayable and terrible sounding. The moral was not THAT they had been strummed, but rather WHAT gets strummed, which supposedly accounts for the breaking in. True? I can't say.

In the case of speakers, it is fairly clear that the surround of a speaker can start out fairly stiff and needs to be "worked" a bit to produce maximum compliance/responsiveness and bandwidth (although one would think this is easily done at the factory). In the case of larger electrolytic caps, there is a period of "charging" that is needed. In the case of guitars, perhaps there is something in body heat that further cures the finish, or in "magic finger juice" that seeps into the fingerboard (if it is unvarnished) to give just the right resonance. In the case of transformers, I have no idea what the hell it could be, unless som,ehow heat "settles" the windings in some way or, as suggested, does something to the core. I might point out that in his explorations of what makes Fasel inductors so desirable for wahs, RG Keen observed that the properties of the core change over time and use, Some folks have attempted to expedite this using magnets placed atop the inductor.


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