# School me on buying a Les Paul



## screaminking (Feb 5, 2006)

I just went through a phase of getting rid of some of my old gear (nothing special at all) including an old LP studio I've had since I was a teenager. With all that stuff gone, I've been hankering to finally get that nice burst Les Paul I've always wanted.

Looking at the offerings from Gibson, it looks like there are still quite a few options even after they streamlined their products. I think I'd be most interested in something like a Les Paul Standard 60's, but would love some input from all you experts here.

Some of the important items:

Around of under 9 lbs. I've seen a couple of Standard 60's at this level. I know that's kind of the over/under line on LP's and they can hit that with and without weight relief depending on the quality of wood.
Slimmer neck profile
Would like a burst, but not a fan of cherry sunburst or tobacco sunburst. I'm more partial to lemonburst, iced tea burst, or orange bursts.
I know once you go above the Standard 60's LP's, you're looking instruments around the $4-$5k range. I'm not opposed to that either, but at that point should I be considering used instruments or custom/replica builders? Please PM me re: builders if that’s an issue. 

Any recommendations on shops with quality stock or builders? I'm in the Toronto area, but definitely willing to drive out within reason to find the right guitar.


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## Fuzzy dagger (Jun 3, 2016)

Check this forums for sale adds. L&m you can shop on line. I always buy used cause I’m cheap, and I find just what I’m looking for that way. Takes time ‘tho. I might as well say it first: try before you buy.


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## screaminking (Feb 5, 2006)

Fuzzy dagger said:


> Check this forums for sale adds. L&m you can shop on line. I always buy used cause I’m cheap, and I find just what I’m looking for that way. Takes time ‘tho. I might as well say it first: try before you buy.


Yeah, I absolutely want to try before I buy. That’s the main reason for asking about which stores might have a good stock. I find the Toronto L&M’s to be very hit and miss in terms of service, and was hoping some more experienced buyers could direct me to a store that is more discerning with what they stock.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

12th fret may be of help.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

L&M Bloor has a lot in stock. Just go there and play them to see what you like - no need to talk to anyone for that.

2019 Standards (?) come with slim 60’s neck or fatter 50s neck. $3,300.

2018 p90 gold top has thinner neck and on sale for 2200.

They have quite a few on sale now so worth checking out regardless how you feel about the staff.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

You might try Cosmo as well.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I’m going up there right now .. lol


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## Fuzzy dagger (Jun 3, 2016)

I bought my first Les Paul at ring music, 20 years ago.


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## DavidP (Mar 7, 2006)

This is one guitar that I would definitely want to play before buying -- big variables are weight and neck profile; you can always play around with pickups later...


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## madhermit (Dec 31, 2017)

I just went through this and got a Les Paul Standard Original 60s in Iced Tea. Narrowed down from the 50s versions. I already have a couple big necked guitars, so I was ok with the slim taper 60s.

I played 3. Two in Iced Tea, 1 Unburst. One of the iced tea ones was really narrow/midrangey sounding. The Unburst was ok. The second Iced Tea sounded WAY bigger/resonant to me. So much so I had other people verify it without telling them what I was hearing. This was unplugged too.

I bought the big sounding one. Sadly, it has a really plain top, the other one looked awesome but I couldn’t jive with the sound.

They all weighed around the same by feel. I weighed mine when I got home. It weighs 9.8 lbs. They save the lightest wood for the Reissue stuff apparently. But 9.8 lbs for non weight relieved isn’t bad.

I really love the sound. It is currently back with L&M getting a setup. The A and D saddles are out of whack, and the nut G slot is the worst I have ever come across. Pings constantly. Gotta love factory ‘setups’.

So yeah. Play a bunch.


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## madhermit (Dec 31, 2017)

JBFairthorne said:


> You might try Cosmo as well.


I like Cosmo, and I know a bunch of the people there, but they really gotta start keeping their higher-end guitars clean. I played a LP Standard and a PRS 594 there recently that were just plain filthy ($3300-$4800). Their special back room seems ok, but the expensive stuff in the main area is what I am talking about. By contrast, the Guitar Shop instruments were clean, polished, and no old/dead strings.


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## Tim Plains (Apr 14, 2009)

Used 1960 reissue (not the Classics), the R0. Plain top models can be had for under $2,500 US. Have it shipped to an address just south of the border and go pick it up to save on costly shipping, brokerage fees, and possibly Canadian sales tax.


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## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

Used Historic is the way to go.


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## screaminking (Feb 5, 2006)

Thanks for all the info. I’ll definitely look into used Historics, that’s a good plan. I also do have one of those US forwarding addresses and could go that route as well. 

Haven’t been to Cosmo music is years. Will definitely check them out.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Spend enough time playing it unplugged.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Roryfan said:


> Spend enough time playing it unplugged.


i hear guys say this, and it makes no sense. if you buy a car, do you first have someone push you around a while with the engine off? i can't think of anything else i would buy where people do this.
it's not the way the guitar is going to be played, it's not the way the guitar was designed to be used. no one buys an electric guitar, and plays it live that way.
i could care less what it's like when not amplified. if it plays well and sounds good plugged in, that's all that matters. playing it unplugged is a waste of time.
some folks will say "if it sounds great unplugged it will sound great amped" you want to know the best way to see how it will sound amped? plug it in.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

cheezyridr said:


> i hear guys say this, and it makes no sense. if you buy a car, do you first have someone push you around a while with the engine off? i can't think of anything else i would buy where people do this.
> it's not the way the guitar is going to be played, it's not the way the guitar was designed to be used. no one buys an electric guitar, and plays it live that way.
> i could care less what it's like when not amplified. if it plays well and sounds good plugged in, that's all that matters. playing it unplugged is a waste of time.
> some folks will say "if it sounds great unplugged it will sound great amped" you want to know the best way to see how it will sound amped? plug it in.


You can tell a lot about an electric playing it unplugged.

The car analogy is more like driving a car with the 500watt stereo off and the windows rolled up.


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## Dan Caldwell (Feb 26, 2017)

I agree with playing unplugged but for me it’s less about the acoustic sound and more how it feels and plays. I’ve convinced myself to by a guitar because it sounded great even though it didn’t play how I wanted it to. Those guitars never stick around. 

And sometimes just sitting in a car will tell you it’s not the one for you.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

You see, you like, you buy !!! 

and repeat as necessary until you're happy….


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

player99 said:


> You can tell a lot about an electric playing it unplugged.
> .


you dont mention what any of it is.

anything you hear when you play unplugged that you don't hear amplified is pointless 
it's an electric guitar, meant to be played through an amp.

let me put the car analogy another way. 
you've decided to buy a top fuel dragster. . why would you evaluate it by driving it to the corner store?


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

cheezyridr said:


> you dont mention what any of it is.
> 
> anything you hear when you play unplugged that you don't hear amplified is pointless
> it's an electric guitar, meant to be played through an amp.
> ...


A guitar is not a car.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Let me just add that I know some players that will make any piece of shit sound good and I know other player that will make any instrument sound like shit...

Buy what you like. you will play it more...


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## Doug_M (Apr 29, 2019)

Frenchy99 said:


> Buy what you like. you will play it more...


Sage advise


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Doug_M said:


> Sage advice


+100


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

A few years ago, I picked up a used R8 from L&M for around $2200. The deals are out there.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

I’d suggest checking the back of the neck to make sure the nitro doesn’t feel “sticky”. Some Gibson guitars are really bad for this. 




Roryfan said:


> Spend enough time playing it unplugged.





cheezyridr said:


> i hear guys say this, and it makes no sense.


For me, it’s easier to listen for dead spots on the neck when it’s unplugged. Some amp compression might make these harder to hear.


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## screaminking (Feb 5, 2006)

Guess I’m going on a field trip to some L&M’s this week. 

Can anyone chime in on builders at all? I know a bit about Toronto and area builders from reading LPF and MLP, but would love to hear from the experts here  Please PM me, if you prefer not to post.


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## sillyak (Oct 22, 2016)

cheezyridr said:


> you dont mention what any of it is.
> 
> anything you hear when you play unplugged that you don't hear amplified is pointless
> it's an electric guitar, meant to be played through an amp.
> ...


What I get from playing unplugged before plugging it in:

- How does this thing feel and play? Is it even worth plugging in? Sometimes you know immediately it's not for you.
- Dead spots and buzz. This can be set up related but it's easier to catch this without being plugged in, and again, if it has dead spots then it's not worth the effort of tracking down a cord and amp.
- A guitar that is loud and sustains well unplugged most likely does plugged in as well, of course this needs to be verified by plugging in that cord.

If I'm guitar shopping I can weed out lots of guitars playing unplugged. I'm not going to waste time plugging in one I don't like (after playing unplugged.) Of course the ones I do like need to be evaluated through an amp.

I agree with the poster saying a guitar is not a car. If you want to use a car analogy though, you often axe a car by just sitting in the driver's seat. Is it uncomfortable? Feels cheap? I ain't wasting my time with a test drive.


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## Cardamonfrost (Dec 12, 2018)

Only pick up guitars that aesthetically please you.

Personally, I play unplugged first. I can always change PU if its too hot. You cant fix bad fingerboards or no resonance. 

I would look at playing a lot of Standard Historics. I know its expensive, but you don't want to really love your Standard and be wondering how much better the R series is.... I know you think a thin neck is for you, but I would still spend a lot of time with the thicker R8/9 profiles. Just to make sure. Personally, the R8 neck is for me, FWIW, there seems to be some differences in R8/R9 necks between production years. 

The right guitar is out there, its your job to find it. For me it was the 7th R series I played (over the course of a month), and it happened because a store manager at L&M went beyond the call of duty and found a guitar that was in the Yorkville warehouse and called me. Happens to be a 2016 R8 in Royal Tea Burst. Couldn't be happier.

C


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## Fuzzy dagger (Jun 3, 2016)

Bartlett guitars in Guelph supposedly builds good stuff. No personal experience but you can google him.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

Cardamonfrost said:


> Only pick up guitars that aesthetically please you.


I have a theory that ugly guitars have to try harder to be liked, so they play and sound better.  I've owned a couple that I don't personally care for the colour, but they play and sound so good!


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

I wouldn't be presumptive enough to try to school you but since you asked here's lesson number one. Don't by a Gibson Les Paul. There are a ton of outstanding Les Paulish guitars for 1/2 to 1/4 the price of a Gibson. I own an 08 Studio which is a perfectly fine over priced example of the breed. I also own a number of much lower priced 2x humbucker guitars made in Korea, Indonesia and China that do exactly the same thing as a Gibson.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

BEACHBUM said:


> I wouldn't be presumptive enough to try to school you but since you asked here's lesson number one. Don't by a Gibson Les Paul. There are a ton of outstanding Les Paulish guitars for 1/2 to 1/4 the price of a Gibson. I own an 08 Studio which is a perfectly fine over priced example of the breed. I also own a number of much lower priced 2x humbucker guitars made in Korea, Indonesia and China that do exactly the same thing as a Gibson.


In what world is $750-$850 for a usa les paul w/ hsc overpriced?


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I’m no LP expert but my experience tells me you just have to play a lot of them. I’ve picked up brand new $3500 LPs and found weird rattles from the bridge or a strange texture on the fretboard or any number of small issues that just shouldn’t be present on a guitar in that price range. Now, a flawless example is worth every penny but they can be...uncommon.

Make a day...or a weekend out of it. Plan a route hit a bunch of stores without being in a hurry. Play a bunch. Don’t pull the trigger until you KNOW it’s the one.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

misposted


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

OP, if you want a Gibson les paul, buy a Gibson les paul. If you want the les paul shape and tone, you have a few more options.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Budda said:


> In what world is $750-$850 for a usa les paul w/ hsc overpriced?


In the world I live in new Studios aren't wort $1500 and used ones aren't wort $850. Not even this one even if I do like it.

https:/


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

BEACHBUM said:


> In the world I live in new Studios aren't wort $1500 and used ones aren't wort $850. Not even this one even if I do like it.
> 
> https:/


You must live in a weird place where market value isnt real.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

BEACHBUM said:


> In the world I live in new Studios aren't worth $1500 and used ones aren't wort $850. Not even this one even if I do like it.


 Did you convert to Canadian dollars in this post?


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

BEACHBUM said:


> I wouldn't be presumptive enough to try to school you but since you asked here's lesson number one. Don't by a Gibson Les Paul.







> There are a ton of outstanding Les Paulish guitars for 1/2 to 1/4 the price of a Gibson.



While there are outstanding guitars available for less, they aren't the same.





> I own an 08 Studio which is a perfectly fine over priced example of the breed.



I don't consider Studios to be examples of the breed as they are lower end models.




> I also own a number of much lower priced 2x humbucker guitars made in Korea, Indonesia and China that do exactly the same thing as a Gibson.



Yeah, sure they do. Try a real, high end Gibson and then tell us that.


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## screaminking (Feb 5, 2006)

Think I’m going to hit up L&M Bloor and maybe a couple of other locations to see what’s out there. Went to one of the other locations and played a couple of 60s Standards that didn’t speak to me at all. 

Barring finding a good one readily available, will likely go with a builder. I’d say the custom route is probably more likely.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

One well known mfr. of high quality guitars admitted a few years ago that anything over $700.00 is mostly bling. When looking for a guitar it may be something we might want to keep in mind when setting our budget.


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## GUInessTARS (Dec 28, 2007)

I have owned 9 Gibson Les Pauls over the last 30 years. I currently have 2, a 2016 Standard and a 2016 Studio.
The Standard has a fancy top and some other features but I wouldn't call it better, just different, from the Studio.
I have also owned Les Paul formula (single cutaway, maple top mahogany body) guitars from other manufacturers including Ibanez, Hamer, Dean, Epiphone and currently own a PRS singlecut.
The Gibsons were not the best for staying in tune, but they had the sound.
If you really want a Les Paul, 
buy a Gibson. There are a ton available used.
If it is the Les Paul formula you want, shop around, there are many great options from many manufacturers.
When you find one, play the shit out of it.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> One well known mfr. of high quality guitars admitted a few years ago that anything over $700.00 is mostly bling..


Esteban ?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> One well known mfr. of high quality guitars admitted a few years ago that anything over $700.00 is mostly bling. When looking for a guitar it may be something we might want to keep in mind when setting our budget.


you started at $1500. your production must be getting much more efficient and profitable these days



Steadfastly said:


> Correctamungo. Pretty much all bling after $1000-1500.00.





Steadfastly said:


> One of them said the price after about $900.00 reflected bling.





Steadfastly said:


> In a video by PRS guitars, their management said anything above about approximately $800.00 is bling.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

screaminking said:


> Think I’m going to hit up L&M Bloor and maybe a couple of other locations to see what’s out there. Went to one of the other locations and played a couple of 60s Standards that didn’t speak to me at all.
> 
> Barring finding a good one readily available, will likely go with a builder. I’d say the custom route is probably more likely.


It’s a pretty easy loop to hit the Markham store, go down Markham rd and hit the Scarborough storealso on Markham rd. then hit the Bloor store, then go to the Steeles west store. If you’re feeling frisky you could hit Cosmo first then go across Major Mackenzie to the Markham store.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Budda said:


> You must live in a weird place where market value isnt real.


Actually I live in a world where value is calculated by specs and empirical facts rather than being inflated by the name on the head stock.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Budda said:


> In what world is $750-$850 for a usa les paul w/ hsc overpriced?


As I've already said that would be in the world of Korean, Indonesian and Chinese guitars that are every bit as good and can be had new for 1/2 the price of a used Gibson.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

colchar said:


> 1. While there are outstanding guitars available for less, they aren't the same.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Why do they have to be the same?

2. Are you saying that Studios are not Les Pauls?

3. OK. Here's my even more over priced Gibson that I also like. This is the one with uneven binding transitions and numerous factory finish flaws. 
They list on ebay for $2000 to $2500 used. Like I said I like the guitar but if it wasn't a gift from my Wife it would be on the auction block because for that money I could go Japanese and end up with a better/flawless guitar and new to boot.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Mistaken post.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

BEACHBUM said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1. Why do they have to be the same.


If you want the LP sound and vibe, you get a real LP. The others, while similar, are not the same thing in terms of sound, quality, etc.




> 2. Are you saying that Studios are not Les Pauls?


You know damned well that I didn't. I am saying that they are not representative of all LPs. Your Studio is not in the same league as a Historic.




> 3. OK. Here's my even more over priced Gibson that I also like. This is the one with uneven binding transitions and numerous factory finish flaws.
> They list on ebay for $2000 to $2500 used. Like I said I like the guitar but if it wasn't a gift from my Wife it would be on the auction block because
> for that money I could go Japanese and end up with a better guitar and new to boot.



Binding transition flaws?


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

^^
1. If you want to sound like a Gibson Les Paul then buy a set of Gibson pick ups which by the way I think are some of the best made.

2. Actually I don't know damn well that you didn't. A Studio is either a Les Paul or it is not. You don't get to arbitrarily exclude it from the breed.

3. You're missing my point. I'm not saying that a Studio is an Historic. I'm saying that although Gibsons are perfectly fine guitars no matter what model you are talking about from bottom to top they are all astoundingly over priced for what they actually are.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Yeah but Korean, Indonesian and Chinese are NOT Japanese. Nor are they every bit as good as an American Gibson, the the cheap pots and switches alone make them inferior even if only to a small degree. To say they’re just as good...nonsense and everyone knows it. The best argument that can be made without me breaking into laughter is that the minor improvements (if that’s your opinion) don’t justify the exponentially added cost. That’s true for all sorts of things though. Cars, bicycles, power tools...as you look for more minor improvements, refining the product, those improvements start getting ridiculously expensive.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

BEACHBUM said:


> Actually I live in a world where value is calculated by specs and empirical facts rather than being inflated by the name on the head stock.


So very wrong.

Market value doesnt give a damn what you think.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

mispost


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

JBFairthorne said:


> Yeah but Korean, Indonesian and Chinese are NOT Japanese. Nor are they every bit as good as an American Gibson, the the cheap pots and switches alone make them inferior even if only to a small degree. To say they’re just as good...nonsense and everyone knows it. The best argument that can be made without me breaking into laughter is that the minor improvements (if that’s your opinion) don’t justify the exponentially added cost. That’s true for all sorts of things though. Cars, bicycles, power tools...as you look for more minor improvements, refining the product, those improvements start getting ridiculously expensive.



To each his own. You've got your opinion and I've got mine. When I compare my Korean, Indonesian and Chinese guitars against my Gibsons I find absolutely nothing about the off shore models that makes them inferior. Pots? Who cares about pots. They cost almost nothing and if you can save buckets of money and get just as good a guitar by replacing a couple of bucks worth of pots why wouldn't you? You can say that everyone knows something but then you're not everyone so you don't get to say that.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Budda said:


> So very wrong.
> 
> Market value doesnt give a damn what you think.


Now that you mention it I was just talking to Market Value on the phone and he says that he values my opinion highly. All kidding aside market value and the actual value of an instrument as a tool for making music aren't always the same thing.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Well then perhaps it’s that YOU can’t tell the difference. I can (at least with respect to this product, there are lots of products I haven’t the sense to spot or care about the differences). Or perhaps you can but they just don’t matter to you. There’s a big difference between not being able to spot the difference or caring about it and saying the difference isn’t there.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

^^ Well it's all just a matter of opinion based on our own personal experiences isn't it? You have one, I have one and everybody has one. That's why these discussions seldom resolve anything.


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## Cardamonfrost (Dec 12, 2018)

screaminking said:


> Think I’m going to hit up L&M Bloor and maybe a couple of other locations to see what’s out there. Went to one of the other locations and played a couple of 60s Standards that didn’t speak to me at all.
> 
> Barring finding a good one readily available, will likely go with a builder. I’d say the custom route is probably more likely.


I have a hard time with any thin neck LP. I would consider using a builder after I had owned several LPs so I was sure what I really wanted - because a custom built has limited resale, so you will have it for a long time, unless its one of the super boutique builders that have multiyear waitlist. One of my custom guitars was not my best purchase, for those, and other reasons...

Gibsons have better resale, because they are real LPs. That's the logic I used to scratch my itch anyways. I always chuckle when people talk about the "real Burst LPs" and the how they cost 6 digits - I think to myself, I have a real burst, it was built in 2016.

C


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

BEACHBUM said:


> ^^ Well it's all just a matter of opinion based on our own personal experiences isn't it? You have one, I have one and everybody has one. That's why these discussions seldom resolve anything.


Well no, the empirical data you mentioned earlier shows that higher end guitars use higher quality parts...


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Double.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Budda said:


> Well no, the empirical data you mentioned earlier shows that higher end guitars use higher quality parts...



Like what? Most of the off shore moderately priced guitars these days are using brand name reputable hardware such as Grover, Gotoh and equivalents. So what's the real world difference other than a few pots and caps which may well be just as good as Gibsons and being suspect only because we aren't familiar with the brands that the off shore builders use. We automatically assume that the parts must be inferior because the guitar costs less but I don't know that to be fact based and I don't believe you do either. I've got guitars with brand unknown pots and caps and I've got others with all that Switchcraft, Griggs etc. junk and frankly I don't hear any qualitative difference between them at all. If you are also wondering whether I'm capable of hearing the difference or not all I can say is that I've been playing for over 50 years so I honestly believe that I can. Of course my hearing ability and yours will never be known to anyone other than ourselves so I guess we'll have to live with that.

As far as Gibsons "high quality" parts and materials go I've got an outstanding sub $400 LP'ish guitar with Grover tuners, an ebony board and genuine MOP inlays and I've got a Gibson Studio with those cheap Klusons with the snot green plastic tuner buttons, pick up rings that are cracked in half out of the box because Gibson was to cheap to fit them to the curve of the body and genuine mother of toilet seat inlays which Gibson likes to use on even their most expensive guitars. At the prices Gibson charges they can do better but simply choose not to. Thanks anyway but from this point on I'm spending my money on actual specs rather than the myth and legend of a name.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

JBFairthorne said:


> Yeah but Korean, Indonesian and Chinese are NOT Japanese. * Nor are they every bit as good as an American Gibson,* the the cheap pots and switches alone make them inferior even if only to a small degree. To say they’re just as good...nonsense and everyone knows it. The best argument that can be made without me breaking into laughter is that the minor improvements (if that’s your opinion) don’t justify the exponentially added cost. That’s true for all sorts of things though. Cars, bicycles, power tools...as you look for more minor improvements, refining the product, those improvements start getting ridiculously expensive.


This kind of back and forth discussion has gone around and around many times but there is a lot of nationalism and personal preference in that statement. When you look at spec for spec, there are guitars as good and better than Gibson, Fender and PRS. Just because the tone is slightly different when measured in an anechoic chamber doesn't make them less of a guitar, but a guitar as good or better with a slightly different tone that is worse or better depending on the ears and brain of the listener. 

People used to have the same argument with North American vehicles, Most have realized that is no longer true and often just the opposite.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

BEACHBUM said:


> Like what?


Here's one you haven't mentioned: finishing process. You really believe the finishing process on a $300 squier (because that's what they cost new now by the way) is going to be better than a $3000 Gibson?

Yes you can find dogs and gems in any product line, that's known. But you keep talking up cheap imports as if they're something they're not.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Budda said:


> Here's one you haven't mentioned: finishing process. You really believe the finishing process on a $300 squier (because that's what they cost new now by the way) is going to be better than a $3000 Gibson?
> 
> Yes you can find dogs and gems in any product line, that's known. But you keep talking up cheap imports as if they're something they're not.


It's certain that a quality lacquer finish takes more time and costs more to do and for that Gibson should be able to charge a premium to those who think that's important. The problem is that poor finish is one of the biggest complaints Gibson owners who are honest about it have. When I was shopping for my new 08 Studio virtually every example I looked at suffered from poor finish prep and lack of proper final buff out resulting in various areas with "orange peal" and lacquer that was sucked into the grain. It was obvious that the factory wasn't sealing the wood properly and was buffing out the headstock, the top and the back of the neck only leaving the rest of the guitar with no buff out at all. My ES 137 Custom was better but never the less showed a few finish dimples and overall binding that didn't transition to the body smoothly. Obviously Gibson feels that their lacquer finishes are one of their best selling points but in my humble opinion they're screwing up far to many of them and if they can't or won't do them right they should be honest about it, go to poly and have done with it.

Then why did you buy them you might ask? Well there was a time when I just had to have a Gibson. I was wrong but that doesn't mean I have to stay that way.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

So you think that a thick poly coat is better than any other finish type?

Because that's what's on the imports you're touting.

I'm not saying that other cheaper options aren't good guitars. I'm even saying some of those cheaper guitars *can* be incredible - but that isn't the norm.

You've been playing for 50 years and a $500 Epiphone is now as good or better than a brand new LP standard? It can be, but it generally isn't. And I pick up the odd epiphone when I'm in stores to see if I'm still right. Also, if you think that PRS SE's have access to the PRS wood library, I have a bridge to sell you.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Budda said:


> So you think that a thick poly coat is better than any other finish type?
> 
> Because that's what's on the imports you're touting.
> 
> ...


A thick poly coat is better than any other type of finish? I didn't say that you did. What I said was that Gibson to often is not doing their lacquer finishes properly. A $500 Epiphone is as good or better than a brand new LP Standard? I didn't say that either. Whether that is true or not may be a matter of opinion but I didn't say that so let's try to stick to what I've actually said. PRS SE's? What's that about? I gave no opinion on PRS nor would I since I've never played one. If I recall my end of the conversation has been about reasonably priced off shore guitars with excellent specs vs. over priced Gibsons made by a company with a less than stellar QC reputation.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

You said this:

"There are a ton of outstanding Les Paulish guitars for 1/2 to 1/4 the price of a Gibson. I own an 08 Studio which is a perfectly fine over priced example of the breed. I also own a number of much lower priced 2x humbucker guitars made in Korea, Indonesia and China that do exactly the same thing as a Gibson."

Which led to the subject of market value and reasons for price differences aside from the brand.

1/4 of a Gibson is generally epiphone pricing. So you did skirt around saying an epiphone LP is better than a Gibson LP, but we both know an implication when we see one.

I brought in PRS when you keep saying there's magical $500 that are routinely just as good as the good Gibsons out there.

You keep saying there's guitars that are just as good as a Gibson Les Paul for 1/4 the cost and I'm saying they are one in 10,000.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

BEACHBUM said:


> A thick poly coat is better than any other type of finish? I didn't say that you did. What I said was that Gibson to often is not doing their lacquer finishes properly. A $500 Epiphone is as good or better than a brand new LP Standard? I didn't say that either. Whether that is true or not may be a matter of opinion but I didn't say that so let's try to stick to what I've actually said. PRS SE's? What's that about? I gave no opinion on PRS nor would I since I've never played one. If I recall my end of the conversation has been about reasonably priced off shore guitars with excellent specs vs. over priced Gibsons with a less than stellar QC reputation as a whole.


This sounds similar to some of the Gibson conversations I've had with Gibson lovers. The hearts gets in the way of reality and reasonableness.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> This sounds similar to some of the Gibson conversations I've had with Gibson lovers. The hearts gets in the way of reality and reasonableness.


Or you argue with people who've actually played and owned the guitars in question, but who's following...


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Budda said:


> You said this:
> 
> "There are a ton of outstanding Les Paulish guitars for 1/2 to 1/4 the price of a Gibson. I own an 08 Studio which is a perfectly fine over priced example of the breed. I also own a number of much lower priced 2x humbucker guitars made in Korea, Indonesia and China that do exactly the same thing as a Gibson."
> 
> ...


Skirt around? Tell you what. Since you've decided to speak to yourself on my behalf I'll check back a little later so you can fill me in on what else I've had to say.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

BEACHBUM said:


> Skirt around? Tell you what. Since you've decided to speak to yourself on my behalf I'll check back a little later so you can fill me in on what else I've had to say.


Man, you said there are comparable les paul style guitars to gibson for 1/4 the price, I said not so much.

Where is the lie?


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Budda said:


> Man, you said there are comparable les paul style guitars to gibson for 1/4 the price, I said not so much.
> 
> Where is the lie?


Slow down. You're still doing it. Lie? I never said that either. If you honestly believe in your opinion as I do mine then you can't be a liar. You could be wrong as I believe you are but I would never call someone a liar under those circumstances. Anyway I'm thinking this horse is about as dead as it's going to get.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

BEACHBUM said:


> If you honestly believe in your opinion as I do mine then you can't be a liar.



Do you even know the definition of 'opinion'?

The dictionary defines ‘opinion’ as:
1. A personal belief or judgment _*that is not founded on proof*_ or certainty.
2. A message expressing a belief about something; the expression of *a belief that is held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof*.
3. *A vague idea in which some confidence is placed*.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

BEACHBUM said:


> I've got a Gibson Studio with those cheap Klusons with the snot green plastic tuner buttons, pick up rings that are cracked in half out of the box because Gibson was to cheap to fit them to the curve of the body and genuine mother of toilet seat inlays which Gibson likes to use on even their most expensive guitars.



And yet you bought that Studio..............................


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

BEACHBUM said:


> ^^
> 1. If you want to sound like a Gibson Les Paul then buy a set of Gibson pick ups which by the way I think are some of the best made.


The guitar plays a role in their sound.




> 2. Actually I don't know damn well that you didn't. A Studio is either a Les Paul or it is not. You don't get to arbitrarily exclude it from the breed.


I never excluded it, I said it is not representative of all LPs - because it isn't and you damned well know that.




> 3. You're missing my point. I'm not saying that a Studio is an Historic. I'm saying that although Gibsons are perfectly fine guitars no matter what model you are talking about from bottom to top they are all astoundingly over priced for what they actually are.


No, they are not. Maybe you think so, but your opinion is not fact. Some of us thing Historics are worth their price, other will think the same about Standard or Traditionals (which I prefer over Standards).

And I'd still like an explanation of these binding transition flaws you mentioned. I think I know what you are referring to, but want to be sure...so what are you talking about?


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)




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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Ignorance is bliss. Honestly, sometimes I wish I couldn’t tell the difference between a run of the mill offshore Epi LP and a USA Traditional (that I eventually chose after playing several). Then I would have an LP instead of pining for one that I really can’t afford.

The same can be said for my current Squier CV vs. American Professional Jazzmaster dilemma. I REALLY wanted to love the Squier but it just wasn’t up to snuff. Frankly, I would just rather not have one than have an inferior example and play it wishing I had something better.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I have a Gibson Firebird V. I tried a couple of the Epi bonamassa FBs thinking I’d like to have single pickup version as well etc.

Passed on the epiphone - just didn’t feel as playable or whatever as the Gibson.

But either way y’all gotta knock over your own outhouse.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

colchar said:


> Do you even know the definition of 'opinion'?
> 
> The dictionary defines ‘opinion’ as:
> 1. A personal belief or judgment _*that is not founded on proof*_ or certainty.
> ...


Yes I do and now that you've looked it up I guess I can rest assured that we both do. Oh, and while you've got your dictionary handy you might want to look up the definition of "sarcasm".

sar·casm
/ˈsärˌkazəm/
Learn to pronounce
_noun_

the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.
"his voice, hardened by sarcasm, could not hide his resentment"


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Just admit you cant find an LP studio in an epi LP special ii. That's all we are saying.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

OMG an Epi LP Special II. What a hunk of crap.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

There are lots of choices. EPI's are not the only other LP out there.


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## brokentoes (Jun 29, 2014)

Kinda depends on what you are looking for really. 

I got this one for $400 U.S. plus shipping from Japan.

I like LP's though so i have 5. 

3 Tokai's and 2 Greco's 

I mod them as i see fit. They suit me.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I love threads like this. It really reinforces the fact that just because somebody has an internet connection, it doesn't mean they know shit from shinola wrt guitars. Or that they even know what to look for in a guitar. Or even if they know how to play one. 

I will never rely just on the internet for sage advice regarding just about anything. It's a useful tool but it is so full of useless tools.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Ah but @brokentoes $400usd is more like $525 and that is not even close to half the price of the cheapest Gibson .

MIJ tokai's are a good time, but their pricing lately has made a well loved classic a close competitor.


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## brokentoes (Jun 29, 2014)

If you can afford it i say buy what makes you happy as well. Most guitars with a good setup and pups to your liking can be a great guitar. However, if in your mind a LP HAS to have certain things, make sure those boxes are checked or you'll never be quite satisfied.


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## madhermit (Dec 31, 2017)

High/Deaf said:


> I love threads like this. It really reinforces the fact that just because somebody has an internet connection, it doesn't mean they know shit from shinola wrt guitars. Or that they even know what to look for in a guitar. Or even if they know how to play one.
> 
> I will never rely just on the internet for sage advice regarding just about anything. It's a useful tool but it is so full of useless tools.


Agreed!

(See signature below)


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## screaminking (Feb 5, 2006)

It’s unfortunate this thread went to hell. Too bad I guess. Just wanted some tips on the best place in a Toronto to look for high end LP’s, clarification on the Gibson product line, and if it’s better to get a custom built guitar at that price point. 

I’ve spoken to a couple of builders, but you know never know when you’re making deals kind of off the books. Also, have started considering a Frank Brothers guitar now too. It’s so tough making the decision to spend this amount of cash.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Fortunately I think most of your questions were answered prior to the crazy talk.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Good luck with your LP hunt. All I know is that when I try LP's in L&M without looking at the "tagger", the ones vastly out of my price range also happen to be vastly superior in sound, feel and performance than many of the other ones. Some people seem to make up their minds on a guitar before even trying one. weird.


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## screaminking (Feb 5, 2006)

Dorian2 said:


> Good luck with your LP hunt. All I know is that when I try LP's in L&M without looking at the "tagger", the ones vastly out of my price range also happen to be vastly superior in sound, feel and performance than many of the other ones. Some people seem to make up their minds on a guitar before even trying one. weird.


Thanks. I totally agree with you. While I'm sure there are definitely gems when it comes to mid-range guitars, my experience has been that higher-end/higher priced guitars (at least Gibson's) are generally superior and superior more often. I always thought I had a "good" LP studio....it even had a one piece back (found out when I got it refinished). As much as I liked it, it just didn't sing like any of the "better" Les Paul's I had played.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Have brian monty build you one. Done.

If i may comment re the shit show...

Keep in mind that some people who talk a talk, can't play for shit. When you suck, the opinion is essentially irrelevant - unless youre talking to another shit player.

As there are different degrees of shite, there's a corresponding degree of info that wont sink in or matter. It would be nice if there was a little button next to our avatar where we could hear someone play their best little ditty. That way we can say," you'll probably be fine with a stringless Les Pong made in Kazakhstan". if you can't strum a G chord, who gives a f*** what you buy?

Also, play a guitar unplugged. Listen to gary moore tell you why. Thats all you need to hear re that.

My intent wasnt to insult anyone.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Yeah...I can tell more about the feel of the guitar when I play unplugged. Different guitars (even the same model) resonate differently with different chords. I swear I have guitars that just sing with an A and others that really like an E. (Am I imaging things ?)

If it sounds/feels good unplugged and the neck/fretboard is good then anything else can be changed if necessary to get the sweet spot. Sure it’s nice to not have to change a thing but some small changes can really take it to the next level sometimes. 

I too wish you well in your search. I’ve been following this thread because I’m also really wishing for an LP.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

@JBFairthorne you are talking about resonant frequency, which changes guitar to guitar.


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## Fuzzy dagger (Jun 3, 2016)

I like Gibson guitars.


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