# Effects Loop Mod



## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

I have a Traynor YGL-3 combo that I would like to add an effects loop to. I would prefer a switchable one. Does anyone know:

a) how to do this
b) on a scale of 1-10 how difficult this is (I would rate my electrical skills fairly low)
c) how much this would cost to do if I got a pro to do it
d) are there any huge drawbacks to modding my amp in terms of tone (i don't care about keeping it original)

I primarly would like to stick delay and chorus in there, but might also add reverb and trem in there as well, since I have pedals I find more practical than the 'verb and trem on the amp.


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## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

It can be done, effects loops can be put onto most any tube amp, given a tech that wants to/will do it and that you want to pay to have it done. It is something that an experienced tech should do, definitely not a first timer project.

Depending on what has to be done to the amp to add the effects loop they can be very expensive. 

I've never tried one on a Traynor and I don't have a schem for your amp handy, hopefully Wild Bill can add in to this on the ease/difficulty of doing it to a Traynor.

I put an effects loop in an older JCM800 for a fellow awhile ago and it cost him $350.00 and apparantly I was cheaper by a fair amount than a lot of other techs he checked out, plus he didn't have to ship the amp away (no one else in my part of the prairies that does tube amp work).

If done right it shouldn't hurt your tone.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Ripper said:


> It can be done, effects loops can be put onto most any tube amp, given a tech that wants to/will do it and that you want to pay to have it done. It is something that an experienced tech should do, definitely not a first timer project.
> 
> Depending on what has to be done to the amp to add the effects loop they can be very expensive.
> 
> ...


Zoinks! $350 is a bit more than I was hoping to spend, but thanks for giving me a ballpark. I'll do some research and see what's what.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The cost is going to reflect the sum total of a number of things. For instance, where would it be installed? It may well look like it consists, from the outside, of *only* a send and receive jack, but if the optimal location for those jacks requires drilling, and if the spot where the holes needs to be drilled requires substantial disassembly of the amp to avoid mishaps, then that adds to the bench time and cost.

Some send-receive loops are simply insertion points and the tacit assumption is that any and all switching will be done remotely. In that case, from an electronic perspective, all that needs to be added are a pair of closed-circuit jacks and maybe a cap or two to prevent stray DC. But what if your intention is to be able to remotely switch rackmount gear with non-guitar-level output, or to be able to remotely switch a whole loop of pedals? In that case, what is required could include not only a send and receive jack but some sort of input and output buffer, as well as an input attenuator and an onboard switching circuit of some kind that may involve a relay and adjunct circuitry. At that point, the cost includes not only the parts, but the design and implementation of circuitry, and figuring out where the hell to install it, etc., etc. You can see how an estimate of $350 starts to come about.

At the whole other end of the spectrum, though, it IS possible on many amps to identify an insertion point that, as I say, only requires a pair of jacks and a cap or two. Heck, in some instances, if you can find one, all that is required is the right sort of stereo switching jack that will let you use tip and ring connections for send and receive, so that only one hole is needed. Sometimes, that hole already exists in some form that you aren't typically using. For instance, I see the amp has two input jacks for each channel. Do you need both of them all the time? If not, then perhaps it is a trivial matter to install the aforementioned jack in one of the 2nd inputs to channel 1 or 2 and insert a send-receive point between *either* R9 or R10 and the Master Volume pot, or between their tie point and the Master volume (so that the loop is imposed on both simultaneously ( http://www.lynx.bc.ca/~jc/721020_YGL3_3A_Mk3.gif ). Something like that should cost significantly less than $350, unless the mod also includes a limo, hookers, and catering.

Take a gander at JC Maillet's Viva Analog site - http://www.lynx.bc.ca/~jc/. He has a soft spot for Traynor amps, and regularly does mods to them. Plenty of info there too.

Fundamentally, you need to think first about what your technical needs are, then learn what you need to about the amp. That will help identify exactly what needs to be done, which will cut down the actual bench-time required considerably.


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## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Some send-receive loops are simply insertion points and the tacit assumption is that any and all switching will be done remotely. In that case, from an electronic perspective, all that needs to be added are a pair of closed-circuit jacks and maybe a cap or two to prevent stray DC. But what if your intention is to be able to remotely switch rackmount gear with non-guitar-level output, or to be able to remotely switch a whole loop of pedals? In that case, what is required could include not only a send and receive jack but some sort of input and output buffer, as well as an input attenuator and an onboard switching circuit of some kind that may involve a relay and adjunct circuitry. At that point, the cost includes not only the parts, but the design and implementation of circuitry, and figuring out where the hell to install it, etc., etc. You can see how an estimate of $350 starts to come about.
> 
> At the whole other end of the spectrum, though, it IS possible on many amps to identify an insertion point that, as I say, only requires a pair of jacks and a cap or two. Heck, in some instances, if you can find one, all that is required is the right sort of stereo switching jack that will let you use tip and ring connections for send and receive, so that only one hole is needed. Sometimes, that hole already exists in some form that you aren't typically using. For instance, I see the amp has two input jacks for each channel. Do you need both of them all the time? If not, then perhaps it is a trivial matter to install the aforementioned jack in one of the 2nd inputs to channel 1 or 2 and insert a send-receive point between *either* R9 or R10 and the Master Volume pot, or between their tie point and the Master volume (so that the loop is imposed on both simultaneously ( http://www.lynx.bc.ca/~jc/721020_YGL3_3A_Mk3.gif ). Something like that should cost significantly less than $350, unless the mod also includes a limo, hookers, and catering.


Effects loops tend to eat alot of tone if not implemented properly. The best way to do a tube amp with one is to make and install a tube buffered loop like you mentioned. It probably requires cutting the chassis to install the new tube socket, and the building and installing of the loop. Finding the insertion point is easy, hooking up a couple of jacks is easy, making it sound good is the part where the time comes in. There were alot of companies in the 90's that just rammed an effects loop into a tube amp with less than desirable results. 
The Ampeg VL series is a great example. Fantastic sounding amps, JCM800 on steriods, but the effects loop is a tone sucking demon (from talking with Lee Jackson who designed the amps, ampeg forced him to redo the effects loop to a simplistic solid state one that saved money). He has done a ton of tube buffered loop mods for owners of these amps.

Just make sure whatever route you go, that you are going to be happy with the results. On an amp like the traynor that doesnt' produce tons of preamp gain, do you really need an effects loop? Effects loops became popular when preamp gain in amps was being raised to the moon and they allowed effects like delay and chorus to be put in after the preamp so they wouldn't be effected by the gain of that stage.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

mhammer said:


> The cost is going to reflect the sum total of a number of things. For instance, where would it be installed? It may well look like it consists, from the outside, of *only* a send and receive jack, but if the optimal location for those jacks requires drilling, and if the spot where the holes needs to be drilled requires substantial disassembly of the amp to avoid mishaps, then that adds to the bench time and cost.


Oh, I can fully understand the amount of work necessary, it was just higher than anticipated, but you get what you pay for.



mhammer said:


> At the whole other end of the spectrum, though, it IS possible on many amps to identify an insertion point that, as I say, only requires a pair of jacks and a cap or two. Heck, in some instances, if you can find one, all that is required is the right sort of stereo switching jack that will let you use tip and ring connections for send and receive, so that only one hole is needed. Sometimes, that hole already exists in some form that you aren't typically using. For instance, I see the amp has two input jacks for each channel. Do you need both of them all the time? If not, then perhaps it is a trivial matter to install the aforementioned jack in one of the 2nd inputs to channel 1 or 2 and insert a send-receive point between *either* R9 or R10 and the Master Volume pot, or between their tie point and the Master volume (so that the loop is imposed on both simultaneously


That sounds pretty reasonable to me, also, it would save me having to run cables into the back of the amp anyway, might as well go in the front like the guitar.



mhammer said:


> Something like that should cost significantly less than $350, unless the mod also includes a limo, hookers, and catering.


hahahaha, if that's all it costs, sign me up!


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Ripper said:


> Just make sure whatever route you go, that you are going to be happy with the results. On an amp like the traynor that doesnt' produce tons of preamp gain, do you really need an effects loop? Effects loops became popular when preamp gain in amps was being raised to the moon and they allowed effects like delay and chorus to be put in after the preamp so they wouldn't be effected by the gain of that stage.


The reason I want a loop is because I run separate clean and dirty effects loops, but I would like certain effects like delay and tremolo especially (reverb and chorus to a lesser extent) be available to each loop. I wanted to weigh out the cost of installing an effects loop on my amp vs. buying a new looper pedal.


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## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

hollowbody said:


> The reason I want a loop is because I run separate clean and dirty effects loops, but I would like certain effects like delay and tremolo especially (reverb and chorus to a lesser extent) be available to each loop. I wanted to weigh out the cost of installing an effects loop on my amp vs. buying a new looper pedal.



I would think the looper pedal would be cheaper and easier. For what's it is worth, I've never installed an effects loop in any of my amps. Looper pedals are fairly easy to build and the parts are pretty economical.

Check this out, definitely cheaper than having an effects loop put in and less cable to worry about at the gig. 
http://www.roadrageprogear.com/tb1003.html


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## Fubar (Oct 17, 2008)

*Confused.......*

I'm a lil confused here guys are you saying that the looper pedal takes the place of an effects loop.......if so how does it work if I wanna run a verb or chorous pedal after the preamp how does a looper pedal accomplish that.......thanx


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

Fubar said:


> I'm a lil confused here guys are you saying that the looper pedal takes the place of an effects loop.......if so how does it work if I wanna run a verb or chorous pedal after the preamp how does a looper pedal accomplish that.......thanx


No, I don't think so. The looper pedal would simply help keep unused effects out of the signal path until they are ready to be used. It would still all be put in front of the amp into the input. 

I do appreciate the effects loop on my DC30 clone and I think it is just a simple basic one (not a fancy tube-buffered one). I always use it for Reverb, Delay, and tremolo. It keeps a lot of other noise out that some of those effects seem to add when in front of the amp. However, I have not yet attempted to add one to my JCM800, and don't plan to add one to my soon to be built Liverpool because I don't plan on using any of those sorts of effects with them. Also, it is sacrilegious to mess with a Trainwreck (clone) like that.


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## Fubar (Oct 17, 2008)

I didn't think so I couln't believe that I hadn't heard of this wonder pedal.......I just acquired a ygm 1 signature and tr 1 reverb Traynors, I haven't seen old school gear like this in a hundred years and while it drips mojo I miss my Marshalls and the loops......


With the reverb out front it puts to much gain on the amp and changes the tone completely, it would be too good if I could loop this in behind the power section where it should be in the chain......but I'm not sure how practical having a loop modded in is........hopefully some of the more venarable members will pop by with some info or I 'm going to have a tr 1 sitting around gathering dust........thanx for the clarification bc


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## FortinAmps (Oct 10, 2008)

hollowbody said:


> I have a Traynor YGL-3 combo that I would like to add an effects loop to. I would prefer a switchable one. Does anyone know:
> 
> a) how to do this
> b) on a scale of 1-10 how difficult this is (I would rate my electrical skills fairly low)
> ...


You could also consider a passive fx loop. That would very inexpensive and as long as you used rack or line level effects, you should be ok. Insert point would be at the treble pot wiper, wire up the send and return jacks that when nothing is plugged in, it will pass the signal through the jacks completing the path. 

When you start going the tube buffer way, it can get expensive and involved.:food-smiley-004:

Cheers,
Mike


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

FortinAmps said:


> You could also consider a passive fx loop. That would very inexpensive and as long as you used rack or line level effects, you should be ok. Insert point would be at the treble pot wiper, wire up the send and return jacks that when nothing is plugged in, it will pass the signal through the jacks completing the path.
> 
> When you start going the tube buffer way, it can get expensive and involved.:food-smiley-004:
> 
> ...


Hey Mike, thanks for the suggestion.

Right now I've decided to live with my setup the way it is, and I've downsized my board (slightly). It suits what I need right now, but I will consider your suggestion if I decide to mod my amp.

:rockon:
Saro


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

You have inspired me again to try a simple passive effects loop on my JCM800 today.
I plan to bring it with me to Calgary next week for a song competition, and I don't want to have to worry about extra noise that the tremolo and reverb add in front of the amp for the parts of the song that I use them.


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## Fubar (Oct 17, 2008)

bcmatt said:


> You have inspired me again to try a simple passive effects loop on my JCM800



What is a "passive loop", I know basically what series and parallel loops are but this terminology "passive loop" are new to me......:rockon2:


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

Fubar said:


> What is a "passive loop", I know basically what series and parallel loops are but this terminology "passive loop" are new to me......:rockon2:


Oh, I just mean a simple loop that's not tube buffered or anything. It will just interrupt the signal to go outside the amp then come back in.
I made some attempts yesterday with no real success. I think I will try a bit more today. I have a couple ideas what to try next.

Update:
I got the effects loop working on my JCM 800. I ended up leaving off the 220K resistor in series with the send and the 100k to ground. The only problem I ran into was that my reverb pedal seemed to boost the signal a bit when I engaged it. I put a Boss eq pedal after my effects before the return and the buffer in it seemed to do the trick. I don't even know if this makes sense. 
Anyways, after all that work, I found a new love for my YGL-3a and am considering taking it to the show instead. The tremolo and reverb that I was going to use in my effects loop are built into this amp and I was impressed with the nice tone and clean to gainy sound I can get by using my pickup selector. It's a little disillusioning to have built some amps, but in the end planning to take something someone else made (with no purpleheart wood on the cab). But, I am trying limit the amount of gear I have to take and I will only have to carry my wah instead of a whole pedalboard. I'll mount some wheels to my 2x12 cab and I can set the Traynor on that and wheel it in. I just loved the tone I was getting out of the Traynor today.


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## Fubar (Oct 17, 2008)

Had a look at your new cabs on your blog Matt you and your dad have done an awesome job........when we gonna see Matt Amps?:food-smiley-004:


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## Fubar (Oct 17, 2008)

Had a look at your new cabs on your blog Matt you and your dad have done an awesome job........when we gonna see Matt Amps?:food-smiley-004:


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

Fubar said:


> Had a look at your new cabs on your blog Matt you and your dad have done an awesome job........when we gonna see Matt Amps?:food-smiley-004:


Thanks for the compliment. I don't think you will see that though. There are enough amp builders out there who actually know what they are doing, there's no need for another hack like me. I just build for me and my friends as a hobby. I wouldn't presume to ever make profit. It's definitely fun though.

By the way, I did get an effects loop into my JCM800 and I did take it with me, I didn't use any resisters; I just interrupted the signal off the MV knob wiper for the loop. It can introduce changes in volume as effects are activated, but putting my boss equalizer last before the return, seemed to act well as a buffer. I'm happy with it in the end. I just drilled a single hole for a a single TRS jack and used my stereo 1/4" plug on a cord that splits into two mono 1/4" plugs (I use this same cord for my DC30 effects loop)
Anyways, I'm happy with it. It's simple and the only parts used were some shielded cable and a 1/4" stereo jack. and a couple centimeters of 20 AWG wire.


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