# Kijiji PSA - Buyer Beware



## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

So I thought I'd post this in case anyone is interested. I was doing a guitar trade today with someone from Kijiji I've dealt with in the past. He had a Les Paul Standard and wanted to trade for one of my guitars. In the course of our conversation, he mentioned he got it from a young guy who financed it, but he told the guy to pay it off, and that was like four years ago so he's sure it's paid for.

This sounded blatantly stupid to me. So I called Long & McQuade and explained that I was looking to buy a used guitar, and I wanted to make sure they have no financial interest in it. I gave them the serial number, and they told me there was over $3000 owing on the guitar, so technically they own it.

I've done this many times, but not always. I've never had a problem with Long & McQuade doing the lookup, but this is the first time it was ever a problem. Needless to say the trade didn't happen.

I've always suspected when you see guitars for sale on Kijiji that are "brand new" and potentially within the return window that people needing cash for other purposes are financing instruments and flipping them. The L&M lending bar is lower than a bank, and they frequently have no payments or low interest (assuming these people ever intend to make a payment). Likewise, I'm sure their rentals get sold on Kijiji all the time.

I'd encourage anyone feeling the least bit uneasy about such a transaction to make the call.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Some people are ballsy. I knew a guy who owned a vhs and dvd rental store in the '90's. People would come in, rent a vcr or dvd player and a bunch of movies, then go to the bar and sell them and drink for a few hours.

This owner was smart enough to put claims into credit ratings. So years later the thieves would come back hat in hand because they are now getting married and want to buy a house, or finance a new car, and the banks wouldn't do business with the big nasty mark the vhs store would leave on their credit report. The contract they would sign also had late fees. So usually they would owe him $5K. Almost all of them came crawling back. The store wouldn't hold them to $5K, but would cover all costs, interest and a small amount for inconvenience and lost profits.

Edit: I remember now he would take them to small claims court, they would never show up so he would get a default win. Then this was posted against his credit rating.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

That is just shitty. Thinking about it now, I've not bought an expensive used guitar outside of GC. I've bought ones that are under $1k or I buy new. But surely it can happen. Would be crazy to think that I have this guitar at home and one day, the cops show up to tell me that I got a stolen guitar. Won't be too farfetched though. 

Thanks for this post. It is a a good reminder of the things that could happen wheelin and dealin gear.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

BlueRocker said:


> This sounded blatantly stupid to me. So I called Long & McQuade and explained that I was looking to buy a used guitar, and I wanted to make sure they have no financial interest in it. I gave them the serial number, and they told me there was over $3000 owing on the guitar, so technically they own it.


I find this situation super interesting. But if the financing was done with a contract signed by someone else. Why would a new buyer be on the hook? Wouldn't L&M just keep going after the original person who bought the guitar from them?

Interestingly, couldn't this open up scenarios where you buy a used guitar from L&M that was originally bought by the first owner with financing from Steve's, Cosmos, etc. and the people at L&M have no idea about the guitar's financing history? If the financing was never completed, by your logic, L&M at no point ever owned the used guitar they were trying to sell you.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

isoneedacoffee said:


> I find this situation super interesting. But if the financing was done with a contract signed by someone else. Why would a new buyer be on the hook? Wouldn't L&M just keep going after the original person who bought the guitar from them?
> 
> Interestingly, couldn't this open up scenarios where you buy a used guitar from L&M that was originally bought by the first owner with financing from Steve's, Cosmos, etc. and the people at L&M have no idea about the guitar's financing history? If the financing was never completed, by your logic, L&M at no point ever owned the used guitar they were trying to sell you.


That's a somewhat fair point. We all assume everything comes from L&M new, and it's a somewhat fair assumption, but doesn't cover other chains or even small shops.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

isoneedacoffee said:


> I find this situation super interesting. But if the financing was done with a contract signed by someone else. Why would a new buyer be on the hook? Wouldn't L&M just keep going after the original person who bought the guitar from them?
> 
> Interestingly, couldn't this open up scenarios where you buy a used guitar from L&M that was originally bought by the first owner with financing from Steve's, Cosmos, etc. and the people at L&M have no idea about the guitar's financing history? If the financing was never completed, by your logic, L&M at no point ever owned the used guitar they were trying to sell you.


I don't know the legalities, but I know if you have a guitar that's tainted in the computer system of the biggest music store in Canada, you better plan on keeping it forever.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

isoneedacoffee said:


> I find this situation super interesting. But if the financing was done with a contract signed by someone else. Why would a new buyer be on the hook? Wouldn't L&M just keep going after the original person who bought the guitar from them?
> 
> Interestingly, couldn't this open up scenarios where you buy a used guitar from L&M that was originally bought by the first owner with financing from Steve's, Cosmos, etc. and the people at L&M have no idea about the guitar's financing history? If the financing was never completed, by your logic, L&M at no point ever owned the used guitar they were trying to sell you.


The likelihood of a financed item ever being repossessed in terms of a guitar are extremely low, but the fact remains as long as there is a balance owed, ownership lies with the financer.

Title is a powerful tool.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

BlueRocker said:


> I don't know the legalities, but I know if you have a guitar that's tainted in the computer system of the biggest music store in Canada, you better plan on keeping it forever.


And yes @pat6969 I said "taint"


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## Pedro-x (Mar 7, 2015)

i had a similar experience, but right before i went to meet up with the guy he told me had just checked on his L&M account and still owed a few hundred bucks. I said no deal at the time but about two months later he followed up showing he paid it off and made the deal. My biggest concern is that if i took it to L&M for a set up or tried to trade it in they would try to hold it as technically they still own it. Im not sure if its legal for them to hold onto it but i wouldn't blame them for trying. Im sure it must happen with all the gear that gets financed and flipped.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

I will need to talk to my lawyer friend about this scenario. If I bought a guitar that has not been fully paid for, am I on the hook for whatever still needs to be paid? I did pay for it so isn't the onus still on the guy who bought it originally?


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Chito said:


> I will need to talk to my lawyer friend about this scenario. If I bought a guitar that has not been fully paid for, am I on the hook for whatever still needs to be paid? I did pay for it so isn't the onus still on the guy who bought it originally?


This reminds me. Don't try to trade in that pedal I sold you....


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Pedro-x said:


> i had a similar experience, but right before i went to meet up with the guy he told me had just checked on his L&M account and still owed a few hundred bucks. I said no deal at the time but about two months later he followed up showing he paid it off and made the deal. My biggest concern is that if i took it to L&M for a set up or tried to trade it in they would try to hold it as technically they still own it. Im not sure if its legal for them to hold onto it but i wouldn't blame them for trying. Im sure it must happen with all the gear that gets financed and flipped.


They DO still own it, and they CAN hold onto it. The agreement the buyer signed is called a conditional sales contract. It's a contract. Legally binding and all. If L&M are owed money, and the guitar shows up, it's all theirs. If you have it in your possession, they would view it as (without necessarily saying this to you, though they might) stolen property.



Chito said:


> I will need to talk to my lawyer friend about this scenario. If I bought a guitar that has not been fully paid for, am I on the hook for whatever still needs to be paid? I did pay for it so isn't the onus still on the guy who bought it originally?


See above. L&M don't have their portion, and don't really care where it comes from. YOU have recourse against the entity/guy who sold it to you, that's who YOU get to chase to be made whole. Bon chance, mon ami.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Okay Player said:


> This reminds me. Don't try to trade in that pedal I sold you....


hahaha.. You know what. I haven't even tried it yet. LOL Probably at some point this week to see if I am going to put it on my board at my next gig on Sunday. Not that I think it would matter as I play clean although there are times when I get tempted and just do a solo and I would need at least an overdrive for that. Now a fuzz pedal would be pushing it. Specially for the kind of music we play.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Chito said:


> hahaha.. You know what. I haven't even tried it yet. LOL Probably at some point this week to see if I am going to put it on my board at my next gig on Sunday. Not that I think it would matter as I play clean although there are times when I get tempted and just do a solo and I would need at least an overdrive for that. Now a fuzz pedal would be pushing it. Specially for the kind of music we play.


It tames up pretty good with the volume knob, so you might be surprised.


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## elburnando (11 mo ago)

From what I understand, it's treated much the same as stolen property, and could be considered "property obtained through fraud/crime" if they never made a single payment. I knew a girl who's younger sister was roped into working for a fraud ring. They'd go into cell phone shops with stolen IDs, get iPhones on a contract for nothing, and sell the phones. The girls got a small pay plus whatever promo items came with the phone to keep(gift cards, headphones, etc). They used that to help build credit, go through the retail chains getting store credit cards, and would get to the point of bank loans.

That said, I seriously doubt L&M is organized enough to link a guitar that comes in for warranty/repair to an unpaid credit account. The loan is likely just closed off and sent/sold to collections, and your name is in their black book.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

elburnando said:


> From what I understand, it's treated much the same as stolen property, and could be considered "property obtained through fraud/crime" if they never made a single payment. I knew a girl who's younger sister was roped into working for a fraud ring. They'd go into cell phone shops with stolen IDs, get iPhones on a contract for nothing, and sell the phones. The girls got a small pay plus whatever promo items came with the phone to keep(gift cards, headphones, etc). They used that to help build credit, go through the retail chains getting store credit cards, and would get to the point of bank loans.
> 
> That said, I seriously doubt L&M is organized enough to link a guitar that comes in for warranty/repair to an unpaid credit account. The loan is likely just closed off and sent/sold to collections, and your name is in their black book.


Around here, they bust someone like that over guns, every other month or so. Get their license, hand them a bankroll and a shopping list.

You are incorrect on part of the latter, hand them a guitar for trade (or service, though they might not do the check on the spot) and watch what they do first when they get near a terminal, you can watch them input your serial number. Correct, write off/agency/blackballed.


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## elburnando (11 mo ago)

keto said:


> Around here, they bust someone like that over guns, every other month or so. Get their license, hand them a bankroll and a shopping list.
> 
> You are incorrect on part of the latter, hand them a guitar for trade (or service, though they might not do the check on the spot) and watch what they do first when they get near a terminal, you can watch them input your serial number. Correct, write off/agency/blackballed.


Oh okay. Ive never seen them do that. Then again, I've only ever traded in 1 item, and have never gone there for service. 
The credit fraud is bigger than most people think. These rings employ dozens of girls(its always girls). They steal IDs from hospitals, jails, shelters etc. Sometimes they'll pay homeless people to go get drivers licenses, as whatever they owed on credit has long since been removed from the report. Its also easy to buy info on the black market to create IDs, or just get actual credit card numbers.


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## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

I have seen them spend 10 minutes trying to open a pedal I brought in to sell so they could check the serial number, everything I have brought in for service has the serial number on the receipt. They are all about the serial numbers at LM.

I never considered the outstanding financing aspect, I always thought they were doing it for tracking/warranty purposes and checking to see if it was reported stolen.


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## amp boy (Apr 23, 2009)

Conversely; anyone ever had L&M ask or check about the used gear you bring in, which they resell ?
It's a weird world when you are responsible for other peoples choices, signatures, and feelings.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

I know that L&M is the biggest game in town, but it's not the only one. Many of you are treating it like it's the only store that exists in Canada.

If L&M checks a serial number when a used item comes in, are you telling me through that serial # they can find out from which store the item was originally bought from (Steve's, RedOne, Cosmo, your local mom + pop, etc.)? Whether it was financed or not? And the remaining balance on the financing? It doesn't sound realistic to me. I think we need an employee from L&M to chime in here.

Numerous stores offer financing throughout Canada, so there are numerous options to buy gear beyond L&M. In fact, there are likely even scenarios where someone could have bought a guitar with financing from the US and it ends up on the used market in Canada. What would happen then?

I don;t have a lot of experience financing retail purchases, but the last time I did it it was clearly tied to my credit card where I would pay the sum through installments. So, my credit card paid the retail store, and I was on the hook to pay the credit card balance. Perhaps not all financing works like that. But if I would have bought something with financing tied to my credit card, I imagine I would be the sole person responsible for paying that off, and it's the credit card company that would come after me, not the retail store.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

L&M absolutely keeps info on financed sales through their own stores as they provide in house financing. They do not track items financed elsewhere through other lenders.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

isoneedacoffee said:


> I don;t have a lot of experience financing retail purchases, but the last time I did it it was clearly tied to my credit card where I would pay the sum through installments. So, my credit card paid the retail store, and I was on the hook to pay the credit card balance. Perhaps not all financing works like that. But if I would have bought something with financing tied to my credit card, I imagine I would be the sole person responsible for paying that off, and it's the credit card company that would come after me, not the retail store.


You would be sorely mistaken. There is no such thing as financing tied to your credit card. You might have elected to pay that loan agreement using the financial services of your credit card company, but you the person holds the liability. Mastercard doesn't give two hoots if you don't pay your financing off. Now, if the payments are charged to your credit card and you do not cancel those payments, then sure, your credit card holder will chase their money to the ends of the earth, but in that instance you have met the obligations of the financing by having it paid using other financial services. Your credit card company will never have a stake in tangible items. They do not want collateral for their services and have no stake in any agreement you make with a retailer.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

I always figured that checking with L&M is good because there's a good chance they sold it (particularly if you live outside Montreal, Toronto, Ottawa where there are not many options). You're right they're not the only game in town, but I'd bet if someone stole your guitar you're more likely to notify them than say Steve's Music, Lauzon, or the 12th Fret.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

__





Loading…






www.long-mcquade.com





Read the second page of that agreement. The first is mostly the specific terms applicable to L&M, the second is what most agreements will look like.


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## jfk911 (May 23, 2008)

Honestly I have never ever thought of this, I have bought some brand new gear but most of the time everything I buy is used. I let someone else take the initial financial hit, however I have always been of the mind set if I don't have the cash I don't buy it and have never even considered financing a guitar. Maybe I'm just too honest and a scam like this has never even crossed my mind, I'll definitely keep this in the back of my mind.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Mark Brown said:


> You would be sorely mistaken. There is no such thing as financing tied to your credit card. You might have elected to pay that loan agreement using the financial services of your credit card company, but you the person holds the liability. Mastercard doesn't give two hoots if you don't pay your financing off. Now, if the payments are charged to your credit card and you do not cancel those payments, then sure, your credit card holder will chase their money to the ends of the earth, but in that instance you have met the obligations of the financing by having it payed using other financial services. Your credit card company will never have a stake in tangible items. They do not want collateral for their services and have no stake in any agreement you make with a retailer.


Thanks for the details. I'm sure I have had financing tied to my Desjardins Mastercard credit card. But maybe, it's a unique offer in Canada. The details are here: Accord D financing | Desjardins

Looking over the Financing info at L&M, the info is here: Financing Options | Long & McQuade Musical Instruments

But, they refer to "pre-authorized" payments elsewhere (on flyers and such). If it's "preauthorized", what does that mean for our discussion? Does it not mean that they are guaranteeing that somehow they will get paid?


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

isoneedacoffee said:


> But, they refer to "pre-authorized" payments elsewhere (on flyers and such). If it's "preauthorized", what does that mean for our discussion? Does it not mean that they are guaranteeing that somehow they will get paid?


That quite honestly just means that you have a pre determined repayment plan. You have given express consent for the creditor to collect their money, however that can be cancelled on your end. That is where the agreement comes into play. 

I also have access to the Accord D financing, however in that instance, you would still not be financing directly from the retailer as you would be paying them in full balance. It also isn't really so much a financing agreement as much as it is a line of credit by any other name


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Mark Brown said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good on you to provide that link to this thread. It was needed! I looked it over. I could have read it in more detail and with more care, but what jumps out at me is the fact that the "Debtor" is the one they'll (the Creditor) go after. If the Debtor defaults, they will go after collateral, but that doesn't mean it's the same item that was originally bought through financing. I didn't get any sense from that document that a person is in danger when buying a used guitar that had previously been financed and was not paid in full. Again, it was a fast read. But, if you notice anything cite it as that would put the proverbial nail in the coffin here, at least when it comes to L&M financing.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

To be honest, I would expect a very low recovery rate on something like a financed guitar. I would almost wager against even an instrument that Long and McQuaid having a financial interest being recovered by them in an instance where a secondary individual brought it into them. I just don't see it being in their best interest to recover an instrument that way from another customer. I could be wrong, but I know I wouldn't want to pursue such an action. It would be shitty business. 

The probability of recovery on any item that comes without title registration like a house or a car is infinitely small, but that does not mean the possibility does not exist.


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## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

amp boy said:


> Conversely; anyone ever had L&M ask or check about the used gear you bring in, which they resell ?
> It's a weird world when you are responsible for other peoples choices, signatures, and feelings.


Yes, my local LM has looked over the guitars, amps and pedals I have brought in, and unless it’s someone I haven’t dealt with a LONG time there, they almost always will play test it to make sure everything is in order.

I like all the folks that work at my local one, they all seem to be really knowledgeable and easy to deal with, a few are gear guys that are most definitely fun to chat with, and the tech there is not only great, but very trustworthy, which is probably why there’s always a wait for his work.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

isoneedacoffee said:


> Good on you to provide that link to this thread. It was needed! I looked it over. I could have read it in more detail and with more care, but what jumps out at me is the fact that the "Debtor" is the one they'll (the Creditor) go after. If the Debtor defaults, they will go after collateral, but that doesn't mean it's the same item that was originally bought through financing. I didn't get any sense from that document that a person is in danger when buying a used guitar that had previously been financed and was not paid in full. Again, it was a fast read. But, if you notice anything cite it as that would put the proverbial nail in the coffin here, at least when it comes to L&M financing.


I am not a lawyer, or a scholar or for that matter smart. This clause says to me that they have the right

c) In addition to those rights granted herein and in any other agreement now or hereafter in effect between Debtor and Creditor and in addition to any other rights Creditor may have at law or in equity, Creditor shall have, both before and after default, all rights and remedies of a secured party under any Personal Property Security legislation of the jurisdiction in which the Collateral is situated. Provided always, that Creditor shall not be liable or accountable for any failure to exercise its remedies, take possession of, collect, realize, sell, lease or otherwise dispose of Collateral or to institute any proceedings for such purposes

I could be very incorrect. See my opening sentence


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## Mutron (Dec 28, 2011)

I've never seen or heard of L&M actually taking back a guitar from a secondary owner that hasn't been paid off.
Not saying it hasn't happened but it seems like it would be a very bad business move. I would generalize that most people who buy/sell/trade a lot of guitars on Kijiji and Marketplace also shop a lot for big and small items at L&M and if they came in to trade a used guitar and L&M took that guitar out of their hands I would assume that person would tell them to get bent and never shop there again. 
Recovering the owing balance on a used guitar that was no fault of the current owner vs. a lifetime of sales to the same owner seems like a horrible trade off.


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## Permanent Waves (Jun 2, 2020)

This is a very good point and interesting conversation - I have never considered this possibility when making a private deal. Granted, I have not made a sizable private purchase in a long time but if a guitar is traded with an amount owing, it can be considered as stolen and there is no statute of limitations. If a stolen guitar resurfaces and there is a police report with a serial number, it will go back to the rightful owner no matter how many years went by or how much the buyer paid for it. I don't see this being any different. I mean, I did a title search on the last used vehicle I purchased, and this is also done by the notary every time a property changes hands. Definitely a good idea to do this for a high-end guitar. 

Old-timers in Ottawa may remember the floor full of "used" guitars at Continental Music on Montreal Road. The store was known for high-pressure sales and in-house financing, and as a result had a high volume of re-possessed instruments getting cycled back through. I guess they were a bit more efficient in the repo side of the business. Maybe they also had a "high-pressure repo department" riding Harleys and carrying chains.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Wow, interesting thread! That's good of you to check up on it and good for putting the word out!

However, I just want to clear up something about what L&M said...



BlueRocker said:


> This sounded blatantly stupid to me. So I called Long & McQuade and explained that I was looking to buy a used guitar, and I wanted to make sure they have no financial interest in it. I gave them the serial number, and they told me there was over $3000 owing on the guitar, so technically they own it.


So the sales clerk you spoke to is incorrect. L&M does not "own" that guitar. If the person who bought it defaults on the loan, the guitar is not considered stolen and L&M would have no recourse or even any right to put it in their system as "stolen" or otherwise have any legal ability to seize it should it cross their path. The buyer did a financing arrangement - and that is ALWAYS through a third party lending agency (Citibank, Chase, Affirm, etc). L&M just acted as the agent to submit the financing application on behalf of the customer. The lender then paid L&M in full for the purchase of the guitar. The buyer then makes their payments to the lender. If they default, the lender is on the hook, not L&M.

ALSO, for the guitar to be repossessed it would have to be registered as collateral on the loan. This is HIGHLY unlikely as the only registered assets I'm aware of from my banking days are vehicles and real estate - because there is a registered title on those.

So any consumer goods you buy on financing cannot be repossessed as there's no title to register a lien against. All the lender can do is send it to a collection agency, and they will deal with trying to get money out of the purchaser.

*EDIT: Apparently this is incorrect per other members and I stand corrected. Carry on.*


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> ALSO, for the guitar to be repossessed it would have to be registered as collateral on the loan. This is HIGHLY unlikely as the only registered assets I'm aware of from my banking days are vehicles and real estate - because there is a registered title on those.


You may wish to review the financing agreement from L&M. The item is directly described as collateral against the debt.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Mark Brown said:


> You may wish to review the financing agreement from L&M. The item is directly described as collateral against the debt.


That would be a first.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Typically I'm with you, no one really has a claim on a product based on your accurate description of most financing agreements.

This was a little surprising to me.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> If the person who bought it defaults on the loan, the guitar is not considered stolen and L&M would have no recourse or even any right to put it in their system as "stolen" or otherwise have any legal ability to seize it should it cross their path.


Unless it could be proven that the original buyer bought for the intended purpose to defraud. This would be "theft by conversion". For example if the buyer did not make a single payment and it was proven they listed it for sale a week or 2 after purchase. That might indicate the purpose for buying the guitar on credit was to sell it.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> The buyer did a financing arrangement - and that is ALWAYS through a third party lending agency (Citibank, Chase, Affirm, etc). L&M just acted as the agent to submit the financing application on behalf of the customer. The lender then paid L&M in full for the purchase of the guitar. The buyer then makes their payments to the lender. If they default, the lender is on the hook, not L&M.


This is not correct. L&M do not do their financing through a 3rd party. To quote Steve Long from a Globe and Mail interview-



> Any other big changes in retailing since you started in the business?
> 
> One big thing for us has been our in-house financing program. It is very different from most credit card financing, because we do it ourselves so it can be a lot more flexible.
> 
> ...


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

gtrguy said:


> This is not correct. L&M do not do their financing through a 3rd party. To quote Steve Long from a Globe and Mail interview-


Frankly that’s shocking to me. I’ve never seen any retailer do their own financing. It’s retail industry standard to partner with a third party lender for financing arrangements.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> Frankly that’s shocking to me. I’ve never seen any retailer do their own financing. It’s retail industry standard to partner with a third party lender for financing arrangements.


It’s always good to learn something new. I think it makes sense for L&M- they’re large enough to do it and as he mentions, it makes sense when you consider their customer base is musicians.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Aright, I've been proven wrong and I stand corrected. Pls ignore my previous assertions.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

March will be 40 years in banking & finance. PPSA varies a bit by province, but not much. Lots of misinformation here, alongside some clearly good info, let's see what we can unpack.



isoneedacoffee said:


> Thanks for the details. I'm sure I have had financing tied to my Desjardins Mastercard credit card. But maybe, it's a unique offer in Canada. The details are here: Accord D financing | Desjardins
> 
> Looking over the Financing info at L&M, the info is here: Financing Options | Long & McQuade Musical Instruments
> 
> But, they refer to "pre-authorized" payments elsewhere (on flyers and such). If it's "preauthorized", what does that mean for our discussion? Does it not mean that they are guaranteeing that somehow they will get paid?


Preauthorized payments - yes, you link your credit card. The payments get paid to L&M
-all the payments get made = L&M doesn't care any more, they have been made whole. If at this point you don't pay your credit card, the card co can sue you, but don't have a direct line or lien on the guitar.
-you screw up and the card gets cancelled before the payments are all made, L&M then is NOT paid in full (I mean, obv you can go in and make other arrangements, this assumes you are a dirtbag and walk away), they are after you AND the card company is after you, assuming there is a balance (usually an over limit balance) at the time the card is cancelled. Such fun!



isoneedacoffee said:


> Good on you to provide that link to this thread. It was needed! I looked it over. I could have read it in more detail and with more care, but what jumps out at me is the fact that the "Debtor" is the one they'll (the Creditor) go after. If the Debtor defaults, they will go after collateral, but that doesn't mean it's the same item that was originally bought through financing. I didn't get any sense from that document that a person is in danger when buying a used guitar that had previously been financed and was not paid in full. Again, it was a fast read. But, if you notice anything cite it as that would put the proverbial nail in the coffin here, at least when it comes to L&M financing.


-L&M has a direct line to the guitar thru the sales slip you sign, which has the description including serial number(s, it can cover multiple items on once contract), and includes the financing terms. This is known as a conditional sales contract. It does not tie into any other collateral, HOWEVER
-if (and they don't, but hear me out) they were to sue you, get judgement, locate other assets, (someone will make a note here about other liens like car financing, yes if they exist they need to be dealt with) and have them seized and sold, all that is legal up to the point that they satisfy their debt. So, yes indeed you could lose a different guitar, or a car, or any other asset of value that you own and they can get their hands on to sell.



Mark Brown said:


> I am not a lawyer, or a scholar or for that matter smart. This clause says to me that they have the right
> 
> c) In addition to those rights granted herein and in any other agreement now or hereafter in effect between Debtor and Creditor and in addition to any other rights Creditor may have at law or in equity, Creditor shall have, both before and after default, all rights and remedies of a secured party under any Personal Property Security legislation of the jurisdiction in which the Collateral is situated. Provided always, that Creditor shall not be liable or accountable for any failure to exercise its remedies, take possession of, collect, realize, sell, lease or otherwise dispose of Collateral or to institute any proceedings for such purposes
> 
> I could be very incorrect. See my opening sentence


^that's where it says they can sue you and take away your stuff, and if they choose not to, they aren't penalized in law is what the last part says. IE, they don't HAVE to sue you, to still have rights under the contract.



Powdered Toast Man said:


> Wow, interesting thread! That's good of you to check up on it and good for putting the word out!
> 
> However, I just want to clear up something about what L&M said...
> 
> ...


OK I see your mea culpa. You're right, L&M don't own the guitar, however they do have an enforceable contract covering the guitar. And, they DO do their own financing in house, it is not shopped out to a third party. They even report to the credit bureau themselves, or did at one time.

So, they could repo it via a bailiff etc, (we know they don't) but they WOULD have to file a lien first. Other than that, they're pretty much banking on it showing up in shop to have any hope of reclaiming it.



guitarman2 said:


> Unless it could be proven that the original buyer bought for the intended purpose to defraud. This would be "theft by conversion". For example if the buyer did not make a single payment and it was proven they listed it for sale a week or 2 after purchase. That might indicate the purpose for buying the guitar on credit was to sell it.


True but rarely enforced, it would likely have to be a serial theft for the cops to act,.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

keto said:


> True but rarely enforced, it would likely have to be a serial theft for the cops to act,.


In 1980, in my young criminal days, I did it to a music store. The police came to my door, giving me the opportunity to make it right on instruction by the music store or I would be charged with theft by conversion. Thats the only reason I know its a thing.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

guitarman2 said:


> In 1980, in my young criminal days, I did it to a music store. The police came to my door, giving me the opportunity to make it right on instruction by the music store or I would be charged with theft by conversion. Thats the only reason I know its a thing.


Props for honesty


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## MetalTele79 (Jul 20, 2020)

Thanks for the warning. Now you have me scared to make trades outside of this forum


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> Frankly that’s shocking to me. I’ve never seen any retailer do their own financing. It’s retail industry standard to partner with a third party lender for financing arrangements.


That's the polite way of saying "Musician are broke and instruments are expensive"


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

.


MetalTele79 said:


> Thanks for the warning. Now you have me scared to make trades outside of this forum


You're not necessarily safe even doing that, unless the member purchased the instrument new (and didn't finance it and not pay it out). I'm sure lots of guitars and other gear gets listed here that came from a private sale somewhere else.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

BlueRocker said:


> .
> 
> You're not necessarily safe even doing that, unless the member purchased the instrument new (and didn't finance it and not pay it out). I'm sure lots of guitars and other gear gets listed here that came from a private sale somewhere else.



I mean, if you REALLY want to protect yourself completely, not many private guys will want to sell to you, because you'll be asking a lot of semi-personal questions.
-seller's name & address
-instrument serial number
-where and when was it bought - if used bought private, it's almost impossible for you to do comprehensive research and full due diligence, so you never ever buy that
-you talk to the place where it was bought, see if it was financed. Privacy, they might claim they can't tell you, you have to have the seller call in and give permission.
-some would go so far as to run a lien check at the registry office, costs like $25 or something here in AB

And I'm probably missing a step or 2. Want to call the cop shop and have them run the serial number thru their database? It would be insanely difficult to give yourself 1000% assurance that you are buying a 'clean no legal issues' instrument. So, each has their own comfort level, assessing the seller etc., mostly we just ignore 95% of the risk.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

I ignore 100% of the risk on the hope that people are honest. So far it is working!


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

keto said:


> I mean, if you REALLY want to protect yourself completely, not many private guys will want to sell to you, because you'll be asking a lot of semi-personal questions.
> -seller's name & address
> -instrument serial number
> -where and when was it bought - if used bought private, it's almost impossible for you to do comprehensive research and full due diligence, so you never ever buy that
> ...


I didn't suggest you do any of that. And it really has nothing to do with the seller being honest like @Mark Brown suggests. For example:

1. Mark accepts the risk and buys a guitar from a Kijiji seller. It was financed through L&M and never paid off.
2. Two years later, Mark tires of the guitar and lists it for sale here. We all know Mark is a stand-up guy and a great seller, so nobody questions it. You buy it, and have a guitar with a questionable ownership.

If any of this worry's you, all you need is the serial number and five minutes. Call L&M and have them check, and perhaps run it here Search property - Canadian Police Information Centre (cpic-cipc.ca) 

I've had people do this when buying from me, and it doesn't bother me in the least (mostly because I've probably already done it before I put it up for sale). You'll never be able to eliminate all risk, and if you can't accept it, there's always the buying new option.


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## elburnando (11 mo ago)

One thing that really astonished me is the lack of any credit check, or any type of proof requirement when I financed a guitar at L&M. I gave my CC, Driver's License, told them I'm self employed, wrote down some friends names and numbers, and walked out paying $500 on $3300 guitar. I imagine they've worked out that a credit/employment(paystubs) check would exclude many musicians who are paid cash per gig, and haven't had enough non-payments to end the practice.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

elburnando said:


> One thing that really astonished me is the lack of any credit check, or any type of proof requirement when I financed a guitar at L&M. I gave my CC, Driver's License, told them I'm self employed, wrote down some friends names and numbers, and walked out paying $500 on $3300 guitar. I imagine they've worked out that a credit/employment(paystubs) check would exclude many musicians who are paid cash per gig, and haven't had enough non-payments to end the practice.


Check your credit report, they do a credit check.


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## elburnando (11 mo ago)

BlueRocker said:


> Check your credit report, they do a credit check.


I check it regulary, and there havent been any inquiries from L&M or anything close. Its likely a soft check, if that. I was financed a guitar there at a point where I had horrible credit, but an active credit card. Unless the threshold is a 500 credit score, or it's only done for a certain amount.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

elburnando said:


> I check it regulary, and there havent been any inquiries from L&M or anything close. Its likely a soft check, if that. I was financed a guitar there at a point where I had horrible credit, but an active credit card. Unless the threshold is a 500 credit score.


They did one on me a couple of years ago when I financed a part of a guitar for a day - cost exceeded my debit card daily limit. Not since though.


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

I bought a guitar via Kijiji from a guy who said it was recently bought but he couldn’t take it back to L&M because he had returned too many guitars and was going to be hit with a large restocking fee (which I’ve heard of them doing). 

He didn’t have the receipt (never did ever send it via email afterwards like he said he would) but now I do kinda wonder if it was a scenario like this post describes.

But I suppose any “Bought new in 2022!” Kijiji guitar ad could be a scenario such as this.


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## elburnando (11 mo ago)

cdntac said:


> I bought a guitar via Kijiji from a guy who said it was recently bought but he couldn’t take it back to L&M because he had returned too many guitars and was going to be hit with a large restocking fee (which I’ve heard of them doing).
> 
> He didn’t have the receipt (never did ever send it via email afterwards like he said he would) but now I do kinda wonder if it was a scenario like this post describes.
> 
> But I suppose any “Bought new in 2022!” Kijiji guitar ad could be a scenario such as this.


I've sold a new guitar because of this reason. I had returned 2 guitars to L&M, totalling about $6k, out of my total $11k purchase history. The first was actually a trade-in, but they took it in as a return because it was like new, had all the tags and packaging, and was still a current model. The second guitar had QC issues, but they wrote the reason as "customer's choice" rather than QC. I was going to have to pay a 10% restock fee next time. I bought one i really didnt like after a while. I sold it for $50 less than I paid, rather than a $415 restock.


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## GuitarTalk (Dec 25, 2018)

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