# What is the "Ultimate" Aftermarket Strat Style Trem?



## Milkman

Lately as I explore the hobby of building up partscasters I'm hearing a lot of buzz about this drop in trem to replace the old Fender vintage style (6 point synchronized) bridges.






Vega-Trem – Guitars tremolo







vegatrem.com





The YouTube clips are impressive.

Have you seen or used one of these? They're not cheap, but still less than a decent Floyd Rose, and seemingly as stable.

I have a Babicz 2 point that is also really good. Which others would you suggest looking at?


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## crann

I saw this in Dweezil's Gibson collection video. Seems interesting. I think us guitar nerds get too heavy into the minutia of guitar parts. I used to think 6-screw vintage trems were garbage, until I started cutting my own nuts, which ended up solving most, if not all of my issues with strat trems. YMMV.

I'd be a bit wary getting this, I'm sure we all have a box or two labeled "guitar parts" that at one time or another we thought "THIS WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING" only to have it replaced by the next whim.

Back on topic though, the word "ultimate" is too vague, what characteristics are you looking for? Tuning stability? Pop in arm? Are you a decker or floater? Jeff Beck style intervals on the up push? Spongy or tight trem action?


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## Paul Running

Here's a link to his patent for this tremolo system...it's in Spanish however, it could be translated...looks like he allows a lot of movement:



https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/d6/86/eb/8579aaf9685113/ES1119430U.pdf


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## loudtubeamps

Paul Running said:


> Here's a link to his patent for this tremolo system...it's in Spanish however, it could be translated...looks like he allows a lot of movement:
> 
> 
> 
> https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/d6/86/eb/8579aaf9685113/ES1119430U.pdf


Trying to reinvent the dweezil wheel...
You can’t beat a good quality block , plate and saddles with Leo’s design if it has to be a screw down mount.
I am partial to the 2 point mount.
The one in the patent??? Wilkinson makes a varient...the hold down bolts for saddle intonation are a dumb idea IMHO.
The threaded bolt through the back of the saddle make a lot more sense and are much easier to adjust.
Have a look at the Gotoh line of trems or Graphtech.
There are some very good trems on eBay from sellers in Korea.
I have one on a parts build...excellent quality and rock solid.
Look for steel,brass, stainless materials....etc.
I would stay way from systems using zinc components.


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## Milkman

crann said:


> I saw this in Dweezil's Gibson collection video. Seems interesting. I think us guitar nerds get too heavy into the minutia of guitar parts. I used to think 6-screw vintage trems were garbage, until I started cutting my own nuts, which ended up solving most, if not all of my issues with strat trems. YMMV.
> 
> I'd be a bit wary getting this, I'm sure we all have a box or two labeled "guitar parts" that at one time or another we thought "THIS WILL SOLVE EVERYTHING" only to have it replaced by the next whim.
> 
> Back on topic though, the word "ultimate" is too vague, what characteristics are you looking for? Tuning stability? Pop in arm? Are you a decker or floater? Jeff Beck style intervals on the up push? Spongy or tight trem action?


For ANY trem, surely the most important characteristic is tuning stability.

At least for me that's a simple reality.

Yes, I understand that a six point trem can be made to stay in tune well.

I just sold a guitar with a standard trem (and tusc nut and retainer) that stays in tune extremely well.

I'm not as much of a gear nerd as I am a pragmatist in this context.

For me a decked trem means you've more or less given up on really using it as a vibrato, so mine have to float.

So really, how well do they stay in tune and how smooth do they feel are the two most important parameters for me.

If the word "ultimate" bugs you, how about your favourites?

Some of these new bridges have really interesting designs and adaptations.

Personally I find that sort of thing interesting. YMMV.


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## loudtubeamps

Most of the trems out there are stable with their main job being :returning to rest at the same place...holding the strings securely and bridge saddles that stay put.
The quality ones do a better job of string transmission , ease of adjustment ,quality of the hardware and springs , ( fewer stripped bolt heads and gouged base plates) and a biggie for me...a solid block- thread or collar assembly that holds the trem arm securely.
Then there’s the little things like holes drilled the proper size so as not to bind the ball end of the string, a proper design so that the string exits the top plate and hits the saddle, not the sharp edge of the plate and proper spacing so the strings line up with the pole pieces.
I would have to say the smoothest are the 2 point systems.
Some players don’t like them because they can be too responsive and a lighter touch is required.


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## Milkman

As I mentioned above, I have Babicz that I like a lot. It's a two point and yes, very responsive and stable.

Also, I agree that the way the trem arm is mounted to / secured to the bridge was an area that left a lot to be desired when you look at the old style Fender six point trem.

Even older Floyds had terrible problems with "clunky " arms.

The Gotoh FR adaptations are really nice in that regard. You can adjust that arm so it is loose and drops away when you let go or tight and stays where you leave it but either way, almost zero clunk.

That's a big deal for me.


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## tdotrob

I converted a MIM 6 screw Strat to one of these Hipshot 2 point once and it was very good.



https://www.solomusicgear.com/product/hipshot-42100v-6-string-contour-tremolo-guitar-bridge/


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## zdogma

I've used tons of them over the years, overall quality and tuning stability is probably best with PRS-the Silver Sky is almost perfect even when floating. For six screw Strat replacement, I think I've had the best luck with Callaham. I've had three guitars with them, including my current Suhr, and it sounds great and stays in tune really well, even set up floating.

I've used the Gotoh and Mann Made "upgraded" tremolos, they stay in tune very well, but the sound and feel was quite different from the classic Strat.






Wilkinson/Gotoh VS-100N Tremolo - StewMac


Wilkinson has combined the tone of vintage tremolos with the adjustability and smoothness of modern designs in these innovative bridges.




www.stewmac.com


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## Milkman

tdotrob said:


> I converted a MIM 6 screw Strat to one of these Hipshot 2 point once and it was very good.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.solomusicgear.com/product/hipshot-42100v-6-string-contour-tremolo-guitar-bridge/


Nice looking bridge. I have one Hipshot bridge here awaiting installation to a Strat, but it's a hardtail.

What did you have to do to the guitar to adapt it from the six point to the two point trem? I's say at least two holes to drill and the inserts to press in, but what else?


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## tdotrob

Some of The MIM bridge holes on mine were stripped so we filled em in with dowel and made two new holes for the two point.

There were two options for the Hipshot, one with the correct spacing for a 90’s MIM and it fit very nice with the old screw holes just barely visible if you looked from the right angle up close the the guitar.

Everything about the Hipshot bridge was solid and seemed high quality, big heavy block, saddles were quality.


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## Grab n Go

There's the FR Rail Tail and Wudtone Holy Grail.


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## Latole

In my opinion the good functioning of a tremolo comes much more from its adjustment (and the well cut nut and more) and which few guitarists know how to do.


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## Shawn B.

In regards to the "better mouse trap" argument: I had the Floyd rail tail, and it was a big chunk of metal. It had some weight to it and (inevitably) changed the sound of the guitar a bit (not necessarily good or bad, but different). You also had to apply some synthetic grease/lubricant to the rail to keep it pivoting freely. You could only bend down; not really up. 

I ended up selling the rail tail and returning to a Gotoh vintage-style trem with a Callaham block. Worked for me. But I put the time into setting it up so it returned to pitch accurately. My two cents, for what they are worth.


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## knight_yyz

My Callaham is the best performer. But I'm comparing to middle of road MIJ stuff


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## Milkman

Latole said:


> In my opinion the good functioning of a tremolo comes much more from its adjustment (and the well cut nut and more) and which few guitarists know how to do.


I think most if not all of us would tend to agree, but all things being equal, some bridges take less effort to achieve similar results.

And I don't dispute that a traditional trem can be made to work well, but I'm interested in incremental improvements people have made to the original designs over the years, and in particular, designs and makers I may not have heard of.


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## Milkman

Shawn B. said:


> In regards to the "better mouse trap" argument: I had the Floyd rail tail, and it was a big chunk of metal. It had some weight to it and (inevitably) changed the sound of the guitar a bit (not necessarily good or bad, but different). You also had to apply some synthetic grease/lubricant to the rail to keep it pivoting freely. You could only bend down; not really up.
> 
> I ended up selling the rail tail and returning to a Gotoh vintage-style trem with a Callaham block. Worked for me. But I put the time into setting it up so it returned to pitch accurately. My two cents, for what they are worth.


If you can't pull up it's pretty much out of consideration for me.

I've also had good results with both Calaham and Gotoh.


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## EchoWD40

Sophia 2:22 Tremolos .... Fits Fender® American Strat® or similar


Sophia 2:22 Tremolo Fits Fender American Strat ® or Similar Variable 2.22" Riser Post Spec. 422" [10.7mm] wide tiers for 2.11 [53.59 mm] E to B string Spacing 14” radius pre-radius — Shims available now. Nut to centerline of Riser Post @ 25.25" Standard Saddles - Dual Loading CNC Stainless...




sophiatremolos.com




The tech behind these trems are phenomenal.


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## crann

Milkman said:


> If the word "ultimate" bugs you, how about your favourites?


After years of mods/tinkering, buying this and that, I now tend to play whatever's on the guitar. I had an american deluxe strat with a 2 point set-up so that pushing the trem flat to the body bent the high e up a half step, the b a full step and g 1.5 steps (Jeff Beck). I could abuse the trem and had no issues returning to standard pitch. So any $'s spent after that seems unnecessary. With a partscaster I'd rather spend the extra $100-150 getting a nicer neck, body or pickups, but certainly your call.


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## Milkman

crann said:


> After years of mods/tinkering, buying this and that, I now tend to play whatever's on the guitar. I had an american deluxe strat with a 2 point set-up so that pushing the trem flat to the body bent the high e up a half step, the b a full step and g 1.5 steps (Jeff Beck). I could abuse the trem and had no issues returning to standard pitch. So any $'s spent after that seems unnecessary. With a partscaster I'd rather spend the extra $100-150 getting a nicer neck, body or pickups, but certainly your call.


LOL, well I'm not replacing anything. I'm building from scratch so I can choose a bridge in the first place.

Might as well be a really good one no?


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## Grab n Go

TDeneka said:


> Sophia 2:22 Tremolos .... Fits Fender® American Strat® or similar
> 
> 
> Sophia 2:22 Tremolo Fits Fender American Strat ® or Similar Variable 2.22" Riser Post Spec. 422" [10.7mm] wide tiers for 2.11 [53.59 mm] E to B string Spacing 14” radius pre-radius — Shims available now. Nut to centerline of Riser Post @ 25.25" Standard Saddles - Dual Loading CNC Stainless...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sophiatremolos.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The tech behind these trems are phenomenal.


I remember seeing these. They _do_ look amazing.

Also, this might help:


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## pat6969

Here's the best 2-point tremolo on the market.

Wilkinson Locking Tremolo Bridge - WVS 130 CR | Guitars And Music Gear From Schopp's Shop | Reverb


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## Milkman

pat6969 said:


> Here's the best 2-point tremolo on the market.
> 
> Wilkinson Locking Tremolo Bridge - WVS 130 CR | Guitars And Music Gear From Schopp's Shop | Reverb


Is that a locking bridge with no fine tuners? Looks great, but I'd counter with this one.









Babicz FCH2PTCH Full Contact 2-Point Strat Tremolo | Reverb Canada


Reverb is a marketplace bringing together a wide-spanning community to buy, sell, and discuss all things music gear.




reverb.com


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## pat6969

Milkman said:


> Is that a locking bridge with no fine tuners? Looks great, but I'd counter with this one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Babicz FCH2PTCH Full Contact 2-Point Strat Tremolo | Reverb Canada
> 
> 
> Reverb is a marketplace bringing together a wide-spanning community to buy, sell, and discuss all things music gear.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reverb.com


IMO the Wilkinson is the best on the market right now, if tuning stability is important to you. The string locking saddles work as advertised, especially if you're using locking tuners as well. Darn near Floyd Rose stability. I installed one on my last Strat and it was simply amazing. No degradation of tone, and rock solid tuning.


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## Milkman

pat6969 said:


> IMO the Wilkinson is the best on the market right now, if tuning stability is important to you. The string locking saddles work as advertised, especially if you're using locking tuners as well. Darn near Floyd Rose stability. I installed one on my last Strat and it was simply amazing. No degradation of tone, and rock solid tuning.


Tuning stability is the single most important element for me.

The Wilkinson looks like a good choice and one I had not considered so thanks.

I think there are several bridge designs now that approach Floyd Rose tuning stability. The Babicz is one. The PRS six point is remarkable too.

I still think a properly installed and adjusted Floyd may be the ultimate in that department. I don't know how it could be more stable.


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## pat6969

Milkman said:


> Tuning stability is the single most important element for me.
> 
> The Wilkinson looks like a good choice and one I had not considered so thanks.
> 
> I think there are several bridge designs now that approach Floyd Rose tuning stability. The Babicz is one. The PRS six point is remarkable too.
> 
> I still think a properly installed and adjusted Floyd may be the ultimate in that department. I don't know how it could be more stable.


If that's the most important thing to you, you owe it to yourself the try the Wilkinson.

WHAT'S UP WITH THAT BRIDGE ON YOUR BLUE SUHR? Pete Thorn/Suhr/Wilkinson - YouTube


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## stereofx

Callaham


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## Milkman

The Calaham bridges I've seen all look like copies of the old Fender trems. They look well made, in fact I've used one on at least one strat but really no different than the Fenders.

It's a better mousetrap I'm looking for.


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## Milkman

I'm thinking I'll buy one of the Vega-Trems and one of the Wilkenson locking trems and try them.

I really can't see tuning stability being a factor when choosing between those two and indeed even among many of the other bridges. 

Really you can say that almost any well made trem bridge can be made to stay in tune fairly well. It's just a matter of doing certain things along the path of the string to ensure it doesn't get hung up and returns to pitch and maybe also a little playing technique.

But some of these new designs seem to make it much easier.

I think it now comes down to feel and responsiveness. 

I love whammys. I love being able to apply a vibrato to a chord. I love that Jeff Beck thing where he never hits a note dead on, and always seems to have the whammy in his hand.

But I frigging HATE being out of tune.

The Babicz are really nice but a bit bulky. These two seem really low profile and worth a try.


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## zztomato

The Gotoh/Wilkinson VSVG is my favourite replacement trem. Adapts to vintage or modern mount. Has a big block with offset string through, lock down saddles with adjustment screws that go through the 'foot' of the saddle so they don't stick up into your hand. Precision fit arm with no wobble.


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## Milkman

zztomato said:


> The Gotoh/Wilkinson VSVG is my favourite replacement trem. Adapts to vintage or modern mount. Has a big block with offset string through, lock down saddles with adjustment screws that go through the 'foot' of the saddle so they don't stick up into your hand. Precision fit arm with no wobble.
> View attachment 356939


You forgot to mention, looks slick as hell. Another notable bridge to consider.


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## stereofx

Gotoh are great tooo VSVG, it's all in the setup cuz they all can suck if not done correctly.


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## troyhead

pat6969 said:


> Here's the best 2-point tremolo on the market.
> 
> Wilkinson Locking Tremolo Bridge - WVS 130 CR | Guitars And Music Gear From Schopp's Shop | Reverb


You can also buy just the locking saddles and turn any strat trem (6 point or 2 point) into a locking trem.








Wilkinson WLS130/S "F" For OFF SET Intonation | Reverb Canada


These WLS130/S "F" saddles are a direct retro fit for your OFF SET intonation screws on your Fender Modern Bridge!! We couldn't leave you hundreds and thousands of Fender lovers out there out and we think you deserve the same tuning stability of everyone else! This is the answer to all...




reverb.com


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## pat6969

troyhead said:


> You can also buy just the locking saddles and turn any strat trem (6 point or 2 point) into a locking trem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wilkinson WLS130/S "F" For OFF SET Intonation | Reverb Canada
> 
> 
> These WLS130/S "F" saddles are a direct retro fit for your OFF SET intonation screws on your Fender Modern Bridge!! We couldn't leave you hundreds and thousands of Fender lovers out there out and we think you deserve the same tuning stability of everyone else! This is the answer to all...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reverb.com


Yes, modern day marvels!


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## Milkman

troyhead said:


> You can also buy just the locking saddles and turn any strat trem (6 point or 2 point) into a locking trem.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wilkinson WLS130/S "F" For OFF SET Intonation | Reverb Canada
> 
> 
> These WLS130/S "F" saddles are a direct retro fit for your OFF SET intonation screws on your Fender Modern Bridge!! We couldn't leave you hundreds and thousands of Fender lovers out there out and we think you deserve the same tuning stability of everyone else! This is the answer to all...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> reverb.com


Do they offer these for six point (vintage) trems or just for the modern (I assume that means two point) trems?


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## Milkman

I'm sure I'll try a few of the new "better mousetrap" trems including the Wikinson and Gotoh offerings eventually.

But the Vega-Trem really intrigued me watching the clips.

They're not cheap, but I suppose I'm not really seeking cheap. There's lots of that available.

I priced one direct from their website and I was into $750 CAD delivered.

Changed my undies, found a local internet seller. More in line or just a bit less than a Floyd.


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## Haroun el Poussah

Vigier 2010/2011... Well, prepare to spend €279 for a new one... But these are custom made for Vigier by Schaller. Needle-bearings used on Airbus landing gears which take 10,000 RPM replace the usual knives. They also have rolling saddles that will avoid frictions as well as spare about 500 strings a year if you play a Strat for 6 hours a day...








VIBRATO EXCALIBUR VIGIER CHROME VIGIER


Moderne 2 points 56mm



www.emma-music.com




Add about €60 if you want a golden one








VIBRATO EXCALIBUR VIGIER DORE VIGIER


Moderne 2 points 56mm



www.emma-music.com




Considering the specs of such needle beatings, you can shake the trem bar for 12 hours a day for your whole life, you won't even get metal-fatigue before you die.
Note that the system is patented, and these are not cheap ball-bearings as seen on some guitars in the last decades... 
This is the famous Excalibur's "classic trem system. Teamed with Spertzel locking tuners and a graphite or rolling nut, it's close to be as efficient as a Floyd Rose unless you really shake the trembar as a maniac


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## zztomato

Haroun el Poussah said:


> Vigier 2010/2011... Well, prepare to spend €279 for a new one... But these are custom made for Vigier by Schaller. Needle-bearings used on Airbus landing gears which take 10,000 RPM replace the usual knives. They also have rolling saddles that will avoid frictions as well as spare about 500 strings a year if you play a Strat for 6 hours a day...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VIBRATO EXCALIBUR VIGIER CHROME VIGIER
> 
> 
> Moderne 2 points 56mm
> 
> 
> 
> www.emma-music.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Add about €60 if you want a golden one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VIBRATO EXCALIBUR VIGIER DORE VIGIER
> 
> 
> Moderne 2 points 56mm
> 
> 
> 
> www.emma-music.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Considering the specs of such needle beatings, you can shake the trem bar for 12 hours a day for your whole life, you won't even get metal-fatigue before you die.
> Note that the system is patented, and these are not cheap ball-bearings as seen on some guitars in the last decades...
> This is the famous Excalibur's "classic trem system. Teamed with Spertzel locking tuners and a graphite or rolling nut, it's close to be as efficient as a Floyd Rose unless you really shake the trembar as a maniac


😆.
I just set up a 1961 strat recently. Trem still works like a charm after 62 years. F'n hilarious the lengths people will go to to sell a new bridge.


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## Milkman

Haroun el Poussah said:


> Vigier 2010/2011... Well, prepare to spend €279 for a new one... But these are custom made for Vigier by Schaller. Needle-bearings used on Airbus landing gears which take 10,000 RPM replace the usual knives. They also have rolling saddles that will avoid frictions as well as spare about 500 strings a year if you play a Strat for 6 hours a day...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VIBRATO EXCALIBUR VIGIER CHROME VIGIER
> 
> 
> Moderne 2 points 56mm
> 
> 
> 
> www.emma-music.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Add about €60 if you want a golden one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VIBRATO EXCALIBUR VIGIER DORE VIGIER
> 
> 
> Moderne 2 points 56mm
> 
> 
> 
> www.emma-music.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Considering the specs of such needle beatings, you can shake the trem bar for 12 hours a day for your whole life, you won't even get metal-fatigue before you die.
> Note that the system is patented, and these are not cheap ball-bearings as seen on some guitars in the last decades...
> This is the famous Excalibur's "classic trem system. Teamed with Spertzel locking tuners and a graphite or rolling nut, it's close to be as efficient as a Floyd Rose unless you really shake the trembar as a maniac



It's worth looking at. The price of 279 Euros converts to approximately $400 CAD which is very close to the price of the VegaTrem Ultra Trem.

So far I've installed 6 Vegas and I haven't detected a downside. The Vigier looks like you can't pull up much. Is that so?

One of the cool things about the VegaTrem uis that you can pull up quite a lot, you don't have to have your bridge leaning forward as you do with a vintage style 6 point. It balances just like a Floyd.


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## Midnight Rider

Not sure if you already have done so but if not take a look at the _'G&L Dual Fulcrum Vibrato'_ designed by Leo Fender. I have a couple G&L guitars with this design and right from the get go I was extremely impressed with the way it functions,...always brings the strings back to where they belong. Mind you I don't hit it like SRV or EVH. 

*Video*: Dual Fulcrum Vibrato


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## Milkman

Midnight Rider said:


> Not sure if you already have done so but if not take a look at the _'G&L Dual Fulcrum Vibrato'_ designed by Leo Fender. I have a couple G&L guitars with this design and right from the get go I was extremely impressed with the way it functions,...always brings the strings back to where they belong. Mind you I don't hit it like SRV or EVH.
> 
> *Video*: Dual Fulcrum Vibrato
> View attachment 391871
> View attachment 391872
> View attachment 391873
> View attachment 391874
> View attachment 391875
> View attachment 391876
> View attachment 391877
> View attachment 391878
> View attachment 391879
> View attachment 391880



Looks like a very good version of the modern two point trem. I'm sure it works as well as any with that design. The only drawback I can see is that the range of travel (upwards) is limited by the top on the body.


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## tomee2

Haroun el Poussah said:


> Vigier 2010/2011... Well, prepare to spend €279 for a new one... But these are custom made for Vigier by Schaller. Needle-bearings used on Airbus landing gears which take 10,000 RPM replace the usual knives. They also have rolling saddles that will avoid frictions as well as spare about 500 strings a year if you play a Strat for 6 hours a day...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VIBRATO EXCALIBUR VIGIER CHROME VIGIER
> 
> 
> Moderne 2 points 56mm
> 
> 
> 
> www.emma-music.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Add about €60 if you want a golden one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> VIBRATO EXCALIBUR VIGIER DORE VIGIER
> 
> 
> Moderne 2 points 56mm
> 
> 
> 
> www.emma-music.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Considering the specs of such needle beatings, you can shake the trem bar for 12 hours a day for your whole life, you won't even get metal-fatigue before you die.
> Note that the system is patented, and these are not cheap ball-bearings as seen on some guitars in the last decades...
> This is the famous Excalibur's "classic trem system. Teamed with Spertzel locking tuners and a graphite or rolling nut, it's close to be as efficient as a Floyd Rose unless you really shake the trembar as a maniac


Looks a lot like this Schaller from the 1990s. It's got some issues that I think make it hard to setup well. 
















The rollers don't seem to roll on mine. Maybe being 25 years old doesn't help.
The intonation has no setting screw. You have to loosen the lock down screw, move the saddle, then retighten. The easy adjustment of intonation was perfected in the 1950s...this design abandons it.
The twin height screws work against the rear saddle hinge. Its hard to get the saddle level without binding that rear hinge. Why is that hinge there? Because of the lock down screw to hold the saddle intonation, which is there because they didn't use a rear access saddle intonation screw. One "idea" snowballed into a mess. 
I can't believe it's still made and costs $400.


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## tomee2

zztomato said:


> 😆.
> I just set up a 1961 strat recently. Trem still works like a charm after 62 years. F'n hilarious the lengths people will go to to sell a new bridge.


See my post above. Overly complex and hard to work with...


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## zztomato

tomee2 said:


> See my post above. Overly complex and hard to work with...


Yeah, any saddle that uses a roller, on top of the usual hight adjustment screws, basically robs the string of energy. Simple is best for tone and sustain.


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## Milkman

zztomato said:


> Yeah, any saddle that uses a roller, on top of the usual hight adjustment screws, basically robs the string of energy. Simple is best for tone and sustain.


That makes sense to me. I always thought that was one of the drawbacks to a Kahler trem. Most Kahlers are not really trem bridges. They are trem tailpieces and by actuating the trem arm, you move the strings' point of contact back and forth across a roller. That seems to dampen vibrations to some extent. Once I moved to a Floyd Rose style trem I noticed an improvement in sustain.


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## Midnight Rider

Milkman said:


> Looks like a very good version of the modern two point trem. I'm sure it works as well as any with that design. The only drawback I can see is that the range of travel (upwards) is limited by the top on the body.


True,... however one could remedy this issue with a good quality Crescent Nicholson double cut brass file to take down the leading edge of the vibrato block to preference if so inclined.


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## superfly

Do you use the tremolo floating, decked or blocked?


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## superfly

zztomato said:


> Yeah, any saddle that uses a roller, on top of the usual hight adjustment screws, basically robs the string of energy. Simple is best for tone and sustain.


This is nonsense, and I have a guitar to prove it. Replaced a standard (I guess on the cheaper side) tune-o-matic with a Schaller STM on a semi-hollow ash Tele, and it's like I bought a new guitar. Way louder, more articulate and gained a lot of mids (I guess a good thing, to fill in the ash's twang...).


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## zztomato

superfly said:


> This is nonsense, and I have a guitar to prove it. Replaced a standard (I guess on the cheaper side) tune-o-matic with a Schaller STM on a semi-hollow ash Tele, and it's like I bought a new guitar. Way louder, more articulate and gained a lot of mids (I guess a good thing, to fill in the ash's twang...).


Well, you put on a better quality bridge so I guess that makes sense. Roller bridges in general do not retain string energy as well as a bridge with fixed saddles. Try putting a roller bridge on a Gretsch and compare the sound to a Compton or Tru-arc. You'll hear what I'm referring to.


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## Milkman

Midnight Rider said:


> True,... however one could remedy this issue with a good quality Crescent Nicholson double cut brass file to take down the leading edge of the vibrato block to preference if so inclined.



That takes care of the block. What about the back of the bridge contacting the top of the body? They do have limited upward range. For many player that's fine. Some people deck the trems and still use them.

Personally I like them free floating.


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## superfly

zztomato said:


> Well, you put on a better quality bridge so I guess that makes sense. Roller bridges in general do not retain string energy as well as a bridge with fixed saddles. Try putting a roller bridge on a Gretsch and compare the sound to a Compton or Tru-arc. You'll hear what I'm referring to.


Could very well be, I will have to experiment some more and see if the quality was in the question, or the design itself. I am actually inclined to believe that the roller bridge offers more surface for the string to rest on and thus transfer bigger partial energy to the bridge unit itself, rather than all of it going to the tailpiece. 

But if I took the statement "roller bridge robs string's energy" at face value (which I've read countless times when researching the bridge), I would have never bought it, and would have not enjoyed my new guitar (seriosely, the tone, feel and sustain are changed so much so, it feels as if I'm playing a different guitar, and I've had it for 10 years prior to the change).

Btw, I bought the bridge to be able to change the string spacing, I like vintage Strat spacing better than the standard tune-o-matic one, and it worked great...


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## Midnight Rider

Milkman said:


> That takes care of the block. What about the back of the bridge contacting the top of the body? They do have limited upward range. For many player that's fine. Some people deck the trems and still use them.
> 
> Personally I like them free floating.


Taking into consideration that the G&L Dual Fulcrum Vibrato is floating system one could route out the bridge pattern on the guitar deck to a predetermined depth to reach the pitch increase desired during back bends. I have my G&L Strats set to a height that allows a whole step pitch increase from G to A,... when measured on the G string. 

Also, instead of taking a file to the leading edge of the tremolo block to increase the movement of travel, as I mentioned in my previous post, one could remove material by routing the front of the cavity. An option if wanting to maintain the original block mass if concerned about sacrificing any sustain or resonance.


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## Milkman

Midnight Rider said:


> Taking into consideration that the G&L Dual Fulcrum Vibrato is floating system one could route out the bridge pattern on the guitar deck to a predetermined depth to reach the pitch increase desired during back bends. I have my G&L Strats set to a height that allows a whole step pitch increase from G to A,... when measured on the G string.
> 
> Also, instead of taking a file to the leading edge of the tremolo block to increase the movement of travel, as I mentioned in my previous post, one could remove material by routing the front of the cavity. An option if wanting to maintain the original block mass if concerned about sacrificing any sustain or resonance.
> View attachment 392394
> View attachment 392395
> View attachment 392396
> View attachment 392397
> View attachment 392398
> View attachment 392399
> View attachment 392400
> View attachment 392401
> View attachment 392402


You can raise pitch by one whole tone. That’s probably similar to many two point terms.

And yes, with any two point, you could I suppose take a router and make a cavity on the top.

That would work, but it’s a bit drastic and certainly not reversible.

My experience tells me that the Impact of the mass of the block is overstated.


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## Midnight Rider

Milkman said:


> You can raise pitch by one whole tone. That’s probably similar to many two point terms.
> 
> And yes, with any two point, you could I suppose take a router and make a cavity on the top.
> 
> That would work, but it’s a bit drastic and certainly not reversible.
> 
> My experience tells me that the Impact of the mass of the block is overstated.


Yes, routing the the top would for most be drastic and a last resort but not entirely irreversible. A bandmate performed the top routing approach some 25 years ago on his G&L Broadcaster to install a 1980's Kahler 2600 vibrato bridge. He had a change of mind a few years later and filled in the cavity with a block of soft maple. He then brought it to LRC Music to have one of the luthiers match the black paint and try to mask the insert. Of course you can still see the lines of the insert but overall it looks quite good for a guitar that went through open cavity surgery. Yes, he still regrets doing such a modification to this day as it has devalued his guitar as compared to others of the same model in the original condition.

I agree that the impact of losing any significant amount of sustain or resonance due to decreasing the mass of the block is overstated,... especially for the amount of material we are discussing here that would require removal. 

Theses pics are similar to what had been done to my buddy's G&L.


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