# Tube Amp for Home Use - Ideal?



## Paul C (Jan 6, 2022)

Looking for a home set up. I will likely never play outside of a home environment. Right now, I'm using a Positive Grid Spark with good monitoring headphones. Really happy with this set up for practice. I can listen to a lesson or YouTube song/backing track and my guitar at the same time on my headphones. I'm satisfied with this sound. Once in a while I would like to play through speakers and I'm not pleased with the 4" speakers on the Spark.

Would a tube amp suit my needs to play at home through a speaker? My understanding is, you get the most out of a tube when you can hit the sweet spot (edge of breakup).

Considerations at this point.
1. I don't want to play through the computer or monitors/speakers.
2. 5 watt tube amp. Fender 57 Custom Champ - one knob - Volume. Edge of breakup level could get loud, but can dial down guitar volume. Or Marshal DSL 5cr - has reverb and crunch and attenuator built in so I can get some crunch and use the attenuator to bring the decibels to a satisfactory level. 
3. 15w Blue Junior - Volume knob to bring it to breakup, then master volume to control the decibels.
4. Fender Tone Master Deluxe Reverb - enough gain through knobs and it has an attenuator to bring the decibels down.
5. Wait for Fender to release more Tone Master amps hopefully in the Princeton or Blues Junior models.

How important is the natural sweet spot of the amp vs clean tone at low levels and pedals to get overdrive/distortion.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

The 5w tube amps are still really loud when they hit their sweet spot. I really like the Tone Master Deluxe and have really enjoyed it since I got it. I also have a Line 6 Helix and PowerCab, as well as a Trinity Tramp with VRM to control volume. All three can do home to jam to small stage fairly well. I also have a Vox AC4-C1 that sounds ok at home volumes, but does sound better when it’s cranked a bit.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Paul C said:


> Looking for a home set up. I will likely never play outside of a home environment. Right now, I'm using a Positive Grid Spark with good monitoring headphones. Really happy with this set up for practice. I can listen to a lesson or YouTube song/backing track and my guitar at the same time on my headphones. I'm satisfied with this sound. Once in a while I would like to play through speakers and I'm not pleased with the 4" speakers on the Spark.
> 
> Would a tube amp suit my needs to play at home through a speaker? My understanding is, you get the most out of a tube when you can hit the sweet spot (edge of breakup).
> 
> ...



I suggest just taking the headphone jack out and sending that to a full range powered speaker.

No need to go back to a tube amp.

You like the sound, just want it a bit bigger and louder?

Pump it through a bigger (clean) powered cab.

(sorry, your very first point said you don't want just what I suggested.)


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I have a 0.5 watt amp and it's still loud as F$%k when you crank it up.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

Paul C said:


> Looking for a home set up. I will likely never play outside of a home environment. Right now, I'm using a Positive Grid Spark with good monitoring headphones. Really happy with this set up for practice. I can listen to a lesson or YouTube song/backing track and my guitar at the same time on my headphones. I'm satisfied with this sound. Once in a while I would like to play through speakers and I'm not pleased with the 4" speakers on the Spark.
> 
> Would a tube amp suit my needs to play at home through a speaker? My understanding is, you get the most out of a tube when you can hit the sweet spot (edge of breakup).
> 
> ...


hi,

kevin o'conner of london power (canadian outfit) has true power scaling circuits one can put into an amp.
power scaling "dials in" maximum output for an amplifier and allows you to achieve "sweet spots" at a variety
of total amplitudes not just one. speaker output terminal based attenuators like power soak, hot plate etc are kind crude compared to the internal power scaling solution. you can dial up power output from 0 to max of the amplifier with a power scalar and "sag" circuit. sag permits "Sweet spot" over drive character from the power stage. scaling the ability to achieve "cranked tone" at home acceptable levels. cf. Power Scaling for Tube Amplifiers Q&A - London Power Tube Amps & Kits

i own a little vox acTV4 4 watt among other amps like the blues junior. the vox 4 watt .... it's LOUD. but it has a simpler cheaper circuit attenuation inside too. for any scaling type solution just ensure it will go to whisper quiet when you need it. 1 meter distance at a "mere" 1 watt can yield over 90 dB with a humble guitar amplifier which isn't "quiet".

if you want to try solid state roland had an amplifier in the cube series with "power squeezer" feature. it's similar to scaling and the simpler vox max output switch (1/4 watt 1 watt 4 watt). it mimic'd "sag".

if preamp overdrive is all you need then the situation becomes easier. 

but i think you are chasing more classic tube character by the sounds of it and that includes both preamp and powerstage overdrive.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

^^That shows you pretty well, a Class A tube amp don't need more than 1Watt. He does have the benefit of a large cab, but you don't need a lot of power to drive a speaker. Also that clean sound isn't too different from a regular Marshall clean. 
I have the Fender ProJRIII, its 15W class A, 10inch Speaker, and it's too much power for a speaker of that size. I use it mainly for clean practice as it does get a great reference-level sound out of any guitar. The volume never goes past 2.5 on the dial, as it starts to shake things loose in the room pretty quick. It's also a dark sounding amp, so effects through a single channel amp is its own sort of thing to contend with. 
I would second a choice of no more than 5Watts with a class A tube circuit. The affordable options may be scant but that makes things somewhat easier.
My preference is towards clean sound and to work overdrive/distortion in as magnifier of the clean sound rather than trying to work with a dirty tone and leashing it down towards clarity.


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## Paul C (Jan 6, 2022)

zach_s said:


> hi,
> 
> kevin o'conner of london power (canadian outfit) has true power scaling circuits one can put into an amp.
> power scaling "dials in" maximum output for an amplifier and allows you to achieve "sweet spots" at a variety
> ...


I am new to electric guitar and don't have any experience with amps. I'm not sure if preamp overdrive will satisfy me (no experience). Trying amps at a guitar store with gain turned up and master volume turned down sounded good, but I don't know what I'm missing. If it will then I think a tube amp with master volume should be fine. But I keep hearing you don't get the best that a tube amp could over if you are not overdrive preamp and powerstage. If that's the case, then I need an attenuator either built in/separate or scaling (thanks for the info). Not sure which route to go.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

you can also look into stacking overdrives to get a similar over drive effect. this permits total output to be well controlled.
but that's a different topic. you can consult "cranked amp tone at bedroom volumes" at the amptone archive.






Guitar Amp Tone and Effects Placement


guitar amps, effects, guitar amplifiers, tube amps, guitar amp, effects pedals, preamps, guitar effects, amp emulation, tube amp kits, guitar effects pedals, power attenuators, power soaks, power scaling, speaker simulators, amp modelling, modelling amps, amp tone, reamping, COSM, distortion...



www.amptone.com





"jacques" pedals has a *cascading overdrive* to achieve this in one pedal plus your tube amp. 

but definitely check out kevin o'conner's made in canada power scaling solution for the "tube purist" approach
at lower levels out of almost any amp.

fender champs are great lower watt amps for classic crunch. kits can be purchased to avoid collector pricing.
but like that ACTV4 vox low watt amp it's still loud at home.


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## Paul C (Jan 6, 2022)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> My preference is towards clean sound and to work overdrive/distortion in as magnifier of the clean sound rather than trying to work with a dirty tone and leashing it down towards clarity.


In that case, would you recommend a 5W amp with good clean sound, add dirt with a pedal and not worry about the natural breakup.


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## DavidP (Mar 7, 2006)

If I was in your situation (i.e., mainly home use), I'd consider other options. As others have noted, even a 5W tube amp can get ridiculously loud as you chase down its sweet spot. After decades of tube amps, ranging from Champs to Super Reverbs and AC30s, I've become a fan of Pat Quilter's creations given their size/power/sound and ability to keep your dialed-in tone across the volume range. IMHO, the recent Aviator Cub would be a great fit for your needs. However, it's difficult to demo one as there are still relatively few dealers here in Canada.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

Paul C said:


> I am new to electric guitar and don't have any experience with amps. I'm not sure if preamp overdrive will satisfy me (no experience). Trying amps at a guitar store with gain turned up and master volume turned down sounded good, but I don't know what I'm missing. If it will then I think a tube amp with master volume should be fine. But I keep hearing you don't get the best that a tube amp could over if you are not overdrive preamp and powerstage. If that's the case, then I need an attenuator either built in/separate or scaling (thanks for the info). Not sure which route to go.


in the store if you liked preamp gain turned up and master down to home levels then you can probably do that. more overdrive can be had with an overdrive pedal and that gets you some cascading gain. don't be in a hurry.

powerscaling installation might sound daunting but if you add up what people spend on over drive pedals
it's not so bad price wise for tube purist approach.

depends what overdrive character you seek allot of people use overdrive pedals plus higher gain on the amp and lower master output at home.

don't be in a hurry. try some configurations out when you can. we used to trade all kinds of pedals back and forth among friends when i was young to feel out what we liked. you can do that at brick and mortar stores who are good to potential customers and don't mind the experimentation.

traynor made some excellent tube amps about 20 years ago YCV20 YCV40 etc. the YCV20 is allot like the blues junior. sort of a forgotten quality tube amp today.
but with more features. cheaper than the junior and i'd peg at least as good. IMO. can find them used < $400.00
very loud amps at home though. 

but again if you liked the high preamp gain and low master sound that's an easy way to go. play with an overdrive pedal to compare. 

you can price the cost of london power scaling but as you said you might find an amp with that kind of power control built in as a feature.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

DavidP said:


> If I was in your situation (i.e., mainly home use), I'd consider other options. As others have noted, even a 5W tube amp can get ridiculously loud as you chase down its sweet spot. After decades of tube amps, ranging from Champs to Super Reverbs and AC30s, I've become a fan of Pat Quilter's creations given their size/power/sound and ability to keep your dialed-in tone across the volume range. IMHO, the recent Aviator Cub would be a great fit for your needs. However, it's difficult to demo one as there are still relatively few dealers here in Canada.


allot of progress has been made for this kind of situation since the amptone site years. home limits for final output being a major issue. quilter is a good recommendation to compare. good call.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

Paul C said:


> I am new to electric guitar and don't have any experience with amps. I'm not sure if preamp overdrive will satisfy me (no experience). Trying amps at a guitar store with gain turned up and master volume turned down sounded good, but I don't know what I'm missing. If it will then I think a tube amp with master volume should be fine. But I keep hearing you don't get the best that a tube amp could over if you are not overdrive preamp and powerstage. If that's the case, then I need an attenuator either built in/separate or scaling (thanks for the info). Not sure which route to go.


the quilter amp suggestion by another poster is an excellent suggestion. it has final speaker output control. 0-50 watts. built in. price is reasonable too for what you get. i'll second the quilter as a definitely try/consider.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Paul C said:


> In that case, would you recommend a 5W amp with good clean sound, add dirt with a pedal and not worry about the natural breakup.


Yeah I would. A nice little class-A amp will challenge you, it won't give you wings but it'll give you more accurate impressions of what's happening with the sound. It's also not as "mission-critical" as it would seem to hit a "sweet-spot" with the amp (unless you're playing a bandstand and trying to get through the mix). It's as much of a misnomer as any others regarding playing guitar, technical approaches, preferred sound-settings etc. What you should focus on most is getting good technique built up in your hands, and developing good form in your playing. This doesn't cost you nothing, so most gearheads won't even mention it. Do a lot of practicing unplugged, get the feel of your guitar. Learn to listen closely with your ears and make physical connections to the process of playing the instrument. A lot of beginner aspirations go a very long way but most people, wanting to improve faster, fall down one rabbit-hole or another thinking they can edge out the process. You cannot hurry up to be a more musical person. You have to _live_ with the sound. No gadgets or equipment will shortcut that process. It sounds like you already have a terrific guitar to work with, and you listen to yourself with line-in sound via headphones. You're already very close to the sound so the rest of the work should be in developing your technique, good form, and feeding your ears (consider all the ways you can internalize the music: singing the notes you're playing is a great way to really "feel" how different harmonies come together/vibrate, learn to have an opinion and considerations of these things). You'll find that some things will become second-nature. Much of the work that will do the most for you can be done without an amp, and once you have a firmer grasp, can be done without the guitar in your hand. Anyone can "git-good", that's a byproduct of time and effort. But really having a say-so in music is that all-illusive unicorn, and you ain't ready until you are. That's my ten cents.


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## DaddyDog (Apr 21, 2017)

Are you near a Long & McQuade? Rent a few amps.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

You could do a lot worse than buying a Boss Katana (50 or 100). There are people with a ton of experience playing tube amps who are completely satisfied at low (and high!) volumes using one. You mentioned Fender's Tone Master series, so I imagine you know already that those aren't tube amps and you're open to digital components like those present in the Katana.


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## Paul C (Jan 6, 2022)

DaddyDog said:


> Are you near a Long & McQuade? Rent a few amps.


Good suggestion. I find stock to be an issue. I'll pursue this further.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

The classic rock sound is power tube overdrive which can only be achieved by turning the amp up really loud.

If you want power tube overdrive at bedroom volumes you need an attenuator where good ones are probably the same price as the amp.

That being said I'm playing my Fender Bassbreaker 15 at bedroom volumes with preamp gain and it sounds good to me.

If I had the money though I would get a nice attenuator.

I am referring to this.
3. 15w Blue Junior - Volume knob to bring it to breakup, then master volume to control the decibels.
Turning up the volume knob turns up the preamp gain.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Sound proof the bedroom and turn it up to 11 baby!

... sorry, I am a headphone warrior these days because even my kids yell at me that it is too loud. I am building the garage this summer and if not, I am insulating my shed and putting environmental controls in. There just is no substitute for loud.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

AC4TV and a distortion pedal.

There is no such thing as playing any amp at the edge of natural breakup inside of a residential dwelling and having that be a pleasant experience.

Any small marshall or orange with a master volume and gain or a distortion pedal on any amp will do the same thing as a 4x12 Marshall in an arena. Simply place the microphone close and adjust the EQ and input gain accordingly.

A champ is fantastic, but it isn’t going to give you natural breakup at indoor volumes. It will still be louder than 22 children screaming at the top of their lungs.


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## Abiguitar (May 28, 2009)

I've tried a variety of low watt tube amps and found them all to be too loud (I live in a condo). My last tube amp was a 3 watt Carr Raleigh and I even found that to be too loud. 

Funny enough, I picked up a Spark amp and it suits my needs perfectly. Mind you, I play almost exclusively through headphones. You're correct that the speakers are not very good. 

Have you considered a higher end solid state amp? My sense is that most tube amps are going to be tool loud if you want to get it to natural breakup.


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## Paul C (Jan 6, 2022)

Always12AM said:


> AC4TV and a distortion pedal.
> 
> There is no such thing as playing any amp at the edge of natural breakup inside of a residential dwelling and having that be a pleasant experience.
> 
> ...


This is what I am starting to think as well. If I want a tube amp at home, a master volume or attenuator will have to be my solution. I'll compare a couple of options at the store then decide from there. I'll see if I can try the Marshal DSL 5cr with a built in attenuator, and a couple of amps with Master Volume (Quilter as mentioned, Blues Jr. etc.)


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## Paul C (Jan 6, 2022)

Abiguitar said:


> I've tried a variety of low watt tube amps and found them all to be too loud (I live in a condo). My last tube amp was a 3 watt Carr Raleigh and I even found that to be too loud.
> 
> Funny enough, I picked up a Spark amp and it suits my needs perfectly. Mind you, I play almost exclusively through headphones. You're correct that the speakers are not very good.
> 
> Have you considered a higher end solid state amp? My sense is that most tube amps are going to be tool loud if you want to get it to natural breakup.


Starting to think, I need to explore Solid State as well.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I have amps ranging from a half watt up to 100 watts.
Any and all of them can easily become too loud.

I almost always use the Spark these days because I mostly play in my home office.

I really don’t mind the onboard speaker. Frankly most of the tones seem to have more bass than I want so I have to dial it back.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

I've owned both the AC4TV and AC10 (as well as an AC30 but not in the same ballpark). I think the AC10 is a better choice for home use.


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## Paul C (Jan 6, 2022)

Milkman said:


> I have amps ranging from a half watt up to 100 watts.
> Any and all of them can easily become too loud.
> 
> I almost always use the Spark these days because I mostly play in my home office.
> ...


I usually have the bass at 0. Sound is on the boxy side.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Paul C said:


> I usually have the bass at 0. Sound is on the boxy side.


I guess in a band situation I think differently than I do at home. At home I use my iPad connected to the Spark and dial my sounds in that way. It's a cool app.

If I'm playing with a drummer, bass, keys et cetera, these days I would go direct with IEMs, but back in the day it was always 2 X12 or more often 4 X 12 celestions for dirty tones and then often a Roland JC120 for cleans.

So I get the appeal of moving a little air.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

You don't need to crank a tube amp to get drive at low volumes. Most lower watt amps have a preamp circuit that sounds quite good at bedroom volumes. I played my 15-watt Peavey Classic 20 and my Bugera 6262 combo (120 watts) at home at relatively low volumes, both with plenty of gain, and the power tubes didn't bust a sweat.

May I ask what type of music you are planning on playing? If it's classic rock or blues, a small tube amp with or without a pedal should work. Some of the lunchbox heads have power scaling, which helps.

As well, Marshall makes a 1W DSL in either head or combo form with more preamp gain than you will ever need.


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## g#m (Apr 12, 2021)

After much exploration - starting with 15watt BJ (too loud for home use), then Swart STR Tremolo (5 watts - lovely tone but very, very loud), I have happlily settled with a Vibro Champ (1973) where I use my Timmy pedal to adjust volume, eq and dirt as required. 

I find that this arrangement provides me with the right balance between awesome tube amp tone (clean and dirt as adjusted on the Timmy) and volume that is acceptable to my ears and family members. I would also look to new reissue Vibro Champs - they seem to be nice amps at 5 watts.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Paul C said:


> This is what I am starting to think as well. If I want a tube amp at home, a master volume or attenuator will have to be my solution. I'll compare a couple of options at the store then decide from there. I'll see if I can try the Marshal DSL 5cr with a built in attenuator, and a couple of amps with Master Volume (Quilter as mentioned, Blues Jr. etc.)


Try everything at the volume you plan on playing it at and buy what sounds best. Don't get caught up in "this is what you are supposed to do".

As I said I'm playing a Fender Bassbreaker 15 at bedroom volumes and I think it sound great. Mind you I haven't played a cranked amp in decades but it sounds good to me and that's all that matters.


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## Paul C (Jan 6, 2022)

Rollin Hand said:


> You don't need to crank a tube amp to get drive at low volumes. Most lower watt amps have a preamp circuit that sounds quite good at bedroom volumes. I played my 15-watt Peavey Classic 20 and my Bugera 6262 combo (120 watts) at home at relatively low volumes, both with plenty of gain, and the power tubes didn't bust a sweat.
> 
> May I ask what type of music you are planning on playing? If it's classic rock or blues, a small tube amp with or without a pedal should work. Some of the lunchbox heads have power scaling, which helps.
> 
> As well, Marshall makes a 1W DSL in either head or combo form with more preamp gain than you will ever need.


Yes, classic rock and blues rock. Thanks for the feedback.


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## Paul C (Jan 6, 2022)

g#m said:


> After much exploration - starting with 15watt BJ (too loud for home use), then Swart STR Tremolo (5 watts - lovely tone but very, very loud), I have happlily settled with a Vibro Champ (1973) where I use my Timmy pedal to adjust volume, eq and dirt as required.
> 
> I find that this arrangement provides me with the right balance between awesome tube amp tone (clean and dirt as adjusted on the Timmy) and volume that is acceptable to my ears and family members. I would also look to new reissue Vibro Champs - they seem to be nice amps at 5 watts.


This sounds interesting. Will look into the Timmy pedal. Thanks.


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## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

I'll stir the pot a bit by suggesting an amp that is a perfect blend of analog and digital technologies. Few people take the Fender Super Champ XD or X2 seriously until they play one. I've had a list of nice tube amps and still the SC stays. Amongst presently a Marshall Origin 20, an Egnater Rebel 30 and a Blues Jr, the SCXD could easily be the only one I own. I have a second one at the summer cottage where it is for the summer, the only amp around.

Specs

A good demo


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## g#m (Apr 12, 2021)

Also, the little brother/sister of the SuperChamp is the VibroChamp XD. I had one for many years and just sold it to a friend who was looking for a good tube amp that, with the digital voices, can sound awesome at reasonable volumes. These can be found for around $250 on Kijiji. Great amps.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

I didn't read any of the other comments.

Last year Mark Stephenson teamed up with a furniture maker to make the ideal home amp.

$1500 or $1800 or something -- I can't remember. There are good amps and then there are really good amps. If you have never owned one, you don't know what a pleasure it is! I have no idea how many were made.

Use the telephone and mention that amp. Mark is winding down, but was super enthusiastic about that special project. 



https://stephensonamps.com/


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Stop asking questions and just buy this. Best deal in the emporium right now. You don’t have to play it loud to sound good.  

FS: - Fender Hot Rod DeVille (PR 247)


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## fogdart (Mar 22, 2017)

The volume difference between a 5 watt amp and a 15 watt amp thru the same speaker is minimal. Often 5 watt amps have small speakers so that will help keep the volume down and trick people into thinking that they are perceptibly quieter. If volume is of concern for you you’re much better off with a 15w amp with a master volume than a 5w amp without one.


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## BobChuck (Jan 16, 2012)

Marshall 50th anniversary are great.

1watt or 0.1watt
10" speaker
look amazing
...and I agree with BGood, those Fender Super Champ x2 are also great.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

With a tube amp, you can use an overdrive/distortion/fuzz pedal for your dirt. That's what pedals are for. I used to play a 1988 The Twin and it was my only amp. Can't overdrive a 100watt tube amp without getting deaf. LOL So I use pedals for my dirt. With it, I am able to practice at home with my wife and 3 kids even late at night at a very low volume. I was using a set of Boss pedals then, and my overdrive pedal was the Boss SD-1, distortion with the DS-1. There are much better pedals now. Some even emulates amps. I guess all I'm saying is you can get any tube amp, regardless of wattage, and then use pedals for your overdriven sound. You could play at any volume level you want.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Chito said:


> With a tube amp, you can use an overdrive/distortion/fuzz pedal for your dirt. That's what pedals are for. I used to play a 1988 The Twin and it was my only amp. Can't overdrive a 100watt tube amp without getting deaf. LOL So I use pedals for my dirt. With it, I am able to practice at home with my wife and 3 kids even late at night at a very low volume. I was using a set of Boss pedals then, and my overdrive pedal was the Boss SD-1, distortion with the DS-1. There are much better pedals now. Some even emulates amps. I guess all I'm saying is you can get any tube amp, regardless of wattage, and then use pedals for your overdriven sound. You could play at any volume level you want.


Or get a tube amp with a master volume (like most amps have these days) and turn up the preamp gain.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Guncho said:


> Or get a tube amp with a master volume (like most amps have these days) and turn up the preamp gain.


That too. Difference Is you only get one tone without fiddling with knobs. If my smp has a master volume, I have that as one option. And have pedals for boosting or going on into the clean channel with overdrive pedals.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Chito said:


> That too. Difference Is you only get one tone without fiddling with knobs. If my smp has a master volume, I have that as one option. And have pedals for boosting or going on into the clean channel with overdrive pedals.


Tone or sounds? With the pickup selector and volume knob on my guitar and a boost pedal I have multiple tones and sounds going into my amp.


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## OttawaGuitarGuyGSA (Jan 13, 2020)

I have a spark and a tube amp for home use. 

The spark is a great headphone practice amp and I agree it’s not the greatest sounding amp through the speakers , I can’t believe how good it sounds on headphones , I have tried many and it’s still the best one I have found for that use .
I have a fender Princeton limited edition with the 12 inch speaker and pedals and I find it’s the best for me , 12 watts is plenty loud and with a Friedman small box pedal it can cover a lot of ground for flexibility


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Tube amp with master volume. Not all master volume amps are created equal.

If your looking for a wide range of tones with a sweet master volume that sounds great at low and high volumes with a wide range on the gain at either I would reccomend a Bogner Atma.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Guncho said:


> Tone or sounds? With the pickup selector and volume knob on my guitar and a boost pedal I have multiple tones and sounds going into my amp.


Both. Okay I give you that but if you have another dirt pedal that sounds different than your overdriven amp, you still got those extra options. I'm not arguing what you are saying. All I'm trying to say is that he can have any wattage tube amp and still play it at bedroom levels by using pedals.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Chito said:


> Both. Okay I give you that but if you have another dirt pedal that sounds different than your overdriven amp, you still got those extra options. I'm not arguing what you are saying. All I'm trying to say is that he can have any wattage tube amp and still play it at bedroom levels by using pedals.


He could yes or he could not use a pedal and use the preamp gain on the amp.

Both are equally valid options. I just bought and sold six OD pedals. None of them sounded as good as the amps preamp gain in my opinion.

Another option would be to get an EQ pedal to change the tone of your amp.

Lots of options.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

Guncho said:


> He could yes or he could not use a pedal and use the preamp gain on the amp.
> 
> Both are equally valid options. I just bought and sold six OD pedals. None of them sounded as good as the amps preamp gain in my opinion.
> 
> ...


I’m in the pedal camp. It is fun to dime out an AC15 on all cylinders and then adjust the master volume to iPhone volumes. But I prefer the pedal route in most cases.

That is me being lazy as well. I don’t like to have recalibrate microphones and input levels to go from the clean channel to the apocalypse channel. With a pedal, I can set it to its optimal clean and then drive it off a cliff or just enough to put some hair on it using a pedal. I also don’t ever really dime out a pedal. I really like the sparkly mean sounds of the earlier stages of a fuzz or dirt pedal.

I sat down and played an Orange head at a store recently and it was a place that I never go and will never go back to, so for the first time ever in a store, I plugged the first Tele on the wall and then stood behind the cab and dimed it out and played full balls to the wind until an employee jogged over and politely tried to gesture to me to turn it down at which point I said “HELL YA BROTHER” and kept playing until he manually turned it down. It felt a lot better than any pedal or master volume situation lol.


----------



## Pat H (Dec 19, 2020)

I have a Marshall Origin 20 and use what is basically a volume pot in the Effects Loop. Quiet as you want but still driven. Amazon https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00CIHB8FY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

From what I have on hand and would use in your circumstances. Orange Micro Terror which is a hybrid amp and headphones or smallish cab. It's kind of a one trick pony but with FX it blossoms. Traynor Quarterhorse (solid state, but pretty cool with some built in FX) and headphones or smallish cab. Boss ME-80 multi-FX and headphones. I really think though, as others have suggested, that a smallish amp with FX to suit is the ticket.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

Guncho said:


> Try everything at the volume you plan on playing it at and buy what sounds best. Don't get caught up in "this is what you are supposed to do".
> 
> As I said I'm playing a Fender Bassbreaker 15 at bedroom volumes and I think it sound great. Mind you I haven't played a cranked amp in decades but it sounds good to me and that's all that matters.


indeed don't get caught up in "supposed to". 
i think it's a hard lesson for people starting out to learn sometimes.
learning to tease apart marketing and guitar mythology seems to be an issue
for people not just starting out as well.

it's an ongoing process.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

KapnKrunch said:


> I didn't read any of the other comments.
> 
> Last year Mark Stephenson teamed up with a furniture maker to make the ideal home amp.
> 
> ...


stephenson also employs london power scaling IIRC.
kevin oconner's london power scaling is a bit like a good session musician.
invisible until you start to dig around.









Power Scaling Builders & Installers - London Power Amplifiers


Qualified Power Scaling installers, builders & manufacturers. Choose a skilled Power Scaling installer from this list.




londonpower.com


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Pat H said:


> I have a Marshall Origin 20 and use what is basically a volume pot in the Effects Loop. Quiet as you want but still driven. Amazon https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00CIHB8FY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


What would be the point of that? The amp already has a master volume. This would be like adding a second master volume. The drive you are hearing is preamp gain not power amp.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Guncho said:


> What would be the point of that? The amp already has a master volume. This would be like adding a second master volume. The drive you are hearing is preamp gain not power amp.


Where do you get the idea that a master volume is all it takes? I have Marshall amps that have master volumes that sound like absolute dogshit at anything below screaming melt your face off.

Not all master volume amps are ideal for playing at home levels. Some are designed much better than others and work/sound better at bedroom volumes.

On a couple of my bogners using the Fx level volume to act as the overall output master gives a very nice bedroom level tone, even better than just turning the master down. I then can keep my amp set close to what I play it with the band and when I bring it home I just turn the Fx loop volume down with the Fx loop on and voila, bedroom level bliss.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

tdotrob said:


> Where do you get the idea that a master volume is all it takes? I have Marshall amps that have master volumes that sound like absolute dogshit at anything below screaming melt your face off.
> 
> Not all master volume amps are ideal for playing at home levels. Some are designed much better than others and work/sound better at bedroom volumes.
> 
> On a couple of my bogners using the Fx level volume to act as the overall output master gives a very nice bedroom level tone, even better than just turning the master down. I then can keep my amp set close to what I play it with the band and when I bring it home I just turn the Fx loop volume down with the Fx loop on and voila, bedroom level bliss.


I feel like your quoting one thing I said but replying to multiple things I said.

Of course, not all amps with preamp knobs are going to sound good but many are and some sound great and better than any pedal. I'm just saying it's an option.

Why would putting a second master volume in your fx loop have a different tone than your master volume? 

Is it really that hard to adjust your master volume knob for home vs band? Hard enough it requires a second device?


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Guncho said:


> Is it really that hard to adjust your master volume knob for home vs band? Hard enough it requires a second device?


See I don't have time to fiddle around with knobs when I'm gigging. When songs go one after the other, you can't just say, hey guys, gotta wait I have to setup my gear for a sec. Doesn't work that way. Specially when you are playing over 35 songs. That's why people like having options like just stepping on a pedal to get the sound that you want. That's just my experience. And we're just talking about overdrives/dirt, there's the other pedals that work in conjunction with each other. I guess its more to simplify things with me.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Chito said:


> See I don't have time to fiddle around with knobs when I'm gigging. When songs go one after the other, you can't just say, hey guys, gotta wait I have to setup my gear for a sec. Doesn't work that way. Specially when you are playing over 35 songs. That's why people like having options like just stepping on a pedal to get the sound that you want. That's just my experience. And we're just talking about overdrives/dirt, there's the other pedals that work in conjunction with each other. I guess its more to simplify things with me.


You're quoting one thing and replying to another and I was under the impression we were talking about playing at home by yourself.

I never said anything about touching any knobs on the amp while playing. I said pickup selector on the guitar, volume knob on the guitar and a boost pedal. If I needed a radically different "tone" I could get an eq pedal. To each his own of course. You do you I'm just saying preamp gain is a valid option for playing at bedroom levels.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Paul C said:


> Looking for a home set up. I will likely never play outside of a home environment. Right now, I'm using a Positive Grid Spark with good monitoring headphones. Really happy with this set up for practice. I can listen to a lesson or YouTube song/backing track and my guitar at the same time on my headphones. I'm satisfied with this sound. Once in a while I would like to play through speakers and I'm not pleased with the 4" speakers on the Spark.
> 
> Would a tube amp suit my needs to play at home through a speaker? My understanding is, you get the most out of a tube when you can hit the sweet spot (edge of breakup).
> 
> ...



Bigger amps sound better at low volumes than smaller amps do.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

colchar said:


> Bigger amps sound better at low volumes than smaller amps do.


“Go big or go home”? 

Ironically, he just wants to play at home.


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## Paul C (Jan 6, 2022)

isoneedacoffee said:


> “Go big or go home”?
> 
> Ironically, he just wants to play at home.


More appropriately: "Go big at home"


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Vox AC4
j


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

zach_s said:


> indeed don't get caught up in "supposed to".
> i think it's a hard lesson for people starting out to learn sometimes.
> learning to tease apart marketing and guitar mythology seems to be an issue
> for people not just starting out as well.
> ...


Something that made me feel like a chimpanzee a couple of years ago was the first time I invested some legit money into really high quality plug ins:

(These plug ins are not the real deal, but in some cases they are as good or even better because they have a ton of processing recreating the behaviour of the original circuits blah blah..)

I had just built a pedal board with all of the things that YouTube gear gods said “I needed for a pedal board”..

I was using the pedal board to track a non reverb Princeton with zero plug ins. It sounded pretty good.

I then turned off all of the pedals and tried plug ins.. I recorded the Princeton dry through a single ribbon mic. I used a Neve 1073 as the preamp pumping the signal into a Teletronix LA2A. For those of you who have played a NR blackface Princeton, you know they don’t exceed bedroom volumes on 10 and barely break up at that volume, but going into the console and compressor simulator, it sounded insane.

The point of this blurb is to say that, most of the sounds that I’m in love with from music in the golden era are not a product of the amp or the pedals that we have now, it was simply a dinky amp exceeding it’s clean perimeters barely but punching into an RCA or Neumann room mic and being smashed into submission by a Pulteq or some other unit that would cost someone more than a used vehicle today.

So I try to use amps and guitars with the same topology as the old records I love and then find a pedal or two for living room use that recreate the sounds that would come out of the other end while tracking it through the old, beautiful dirty warm consoles and rack units.

For reference, this is what I mean when I say “old” or “golden era” recording sounds:


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Todays term is “fletcher munson”


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Budda said:


> Todays term is “fletcher munson”


Wasn't he in Malcolm In The Middle?


----------



## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Guncho said:


> I feel like your quoting one thing I said but replying to multiple things I said.
> 
> Of course, not all amps with preamp knobs are going to sound good but many are and some sound great and better than any pedal. I'm just saying it's an option.
> 
> ...


Your right i quoted the wrong post my apologies.

Just saying get a tube amp with a master volume like you said in an earlier post could be a bit misleading as lots of amps with master volumes will not sound good or even have the ability to be played quiet at home.

Also some amps with Fx loops have a level control on the Fx loop that can be worked as a global master.

I found my Helios 100 to feel and sound more like a cranked plexi at home when I had the channel and master volume set nice and high and used the Fx loop volume control to bring the volume down to home levels.

I also found this to be the Case with my Bogner XTC.No extra device required.


----------



## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

tdotrob said:


> Your right i quoted the wrong post my apologies.
> 
> Just saying get a tube amp with a master volume like you said in an earlier post could be a bit misleading as lots of amps with master volumes will not sound good or even have the ability to be played quiet at home.
> 
> ...


I'm saying using an amps preamp gain is an option for home use. That's it. An option. I'm not saying it's the best option black and white 100% of the time on any amp no matter what. I'm just saying it's an option and depending on the amp and your taste, could be the best option for you. It is for me right now and I just bought, tried and sold six pretty standard OD pedals.

If all you had to do to run a tube amp flat out at bedroom volumes is a level switch on the effects loop then there would be no need for all these attentuators out there. A master volume controls the amount of signal going to the power amp. A volume device in the fx loop controls the amount of signal going to the power amp. It's like having two dams in series in a river. If you close one dam 98%, it doesn't really matter that you have the next dam one wide open.


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## Pat H (Dec 19, 2020)

Guncho said:


> What would be the point of that? The amp already has a master volume. This would be like adding a second master volume. The drive you are hearing is preamp gain not power amp.


You are correct. I was brainwashed by YouTube reviews but after using it for a couple of days I have realized the futility of the thing. My wallet is now $85 lighter for a new doorstop.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

Always12AM said:


> Something that made me feel like a chimpanzee a couple of years ago was the first time I invested some legit money into really high quality plug ins:
> 
> (These plug ins are not the real deal, but in some cases they are as good or even better because they have a ton of processing recreating the behaviour of the original circuits blah blah..)
> 
> ...



well put. the topology matters. when helping early adventurers with these matters there's often confusion (at it was with me when i started) why what came out of the amp didn't match the record. ALLOT of work goes into forging those sounds and so they hang together properly.

i think this man is a swedish (?) amplifier "obsessive" and he demonstrated pretty much what you've stated regarding recording equipment in the signal chain.

EG.




*This is where those PUNCHY and NATURAL 1970s Recordings came from!!*

speakers matter allot too but it's a luxury to have a few alternate cabinets if one wishes to avoid digital augmentation.
plug ins like impulse response profiles are impressive vs models and speaker emulations of 15 years ago.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

zach_s said:


> well put. the topology matters. when helping early adventurers with these matters there's often confusion (at it was with me when i started) why what came out of the amp didn't match the record. ALLOT of work goes into forging those sounds and so they hang together properly.
> 
> i think this man is a swedish (?) amplifier "obsessive" and he demonstrated pretty much what you've stated regarding recording equipment in the signal chain.
> 
> ...


I spent a lot of time debating between a Cali76 pedal which is a very nice 1176 style compressor VS the 1176 plug in bundle from Universal Audio.

It was a really tough decision to make because the Cali76 is a tangible unit that I could take with me and use outside of recording and the two options weren’t far off in terms of price.

What sold me on the plug ins was that I can now 1176 the living hell out of any source with any microphone and quite honestly, I’m able to leave behind recordings or keep tangible recordings VS living room jamming that disappears into thin air.

I always try to avoid making expensive suggestions to new players because I don’t want to make anyone think that throwing money at something will fix everything. But after locking myself in a dungeon for years and making discoveries, I like to share my findings lol.

There are a lot of sonic mirages that are born from translation between the source and the video or audio recording made.

It’s really hard to know what something is going to sound like naked.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

You guys keep debating, i’ll enjoy the constant updates to my digital unit.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

i learned allot playing with filter/eq ---> gain stage ---> filter/eq ----> compression ---> gain stage. (roughly)
chaining used pedals and including amp preamp as gain stage. pickups as filter/eq. speaker as filter and literal EQs. you get the idea.

i can never suggest spending allot of money. i just recall myself wondering why the record sounded so different and i got the same responses helping out friends who were picking up the hobby later in life. allot in that signal chain as you described well.

sometimes i modified equipment (now impossible due to "collector vintage" pricing) on old reel to reels that didn't work (the transfer mechanism) but the recording and line out features worked. ... to make it guitar usable. $10 pawn shop 90s. sorry i gave that away now. it has limiting circuits in it ... very useful. all tube too.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Guncho said:


> Wasn't he in Malcolm In The Middle?


Maybe not. I think he was a bowling wiz in the Woody Harrelson flick (Kingpin).


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Budda said:


> You guys keep debating, i’ll enjoy the constant updates to my digital unit.



You know, I can understand the appeal, but believe it or not, any gear that needs firmware updates pisses me off. It's never easy for me and I'd prefer if they would get it closer to "right" in the first place.

I suck at that sort of thing. If it was good enough when I bought it, don't give me frigging error messages for trying to continue using it.

In that context, I'm with the tube guys.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Milkman said:


> You know, I can understand the appeal, but believe it or not, any gear that needs firmware updates pisses me off. It's never easy for me and I'd prefer if they would get it closer to "right" in the first place.
> 
> I suck at that sort of thing. If it was good enough when I bought it, don't give me frigging error messages for trying to continue using it.
> 
> In that context, I'm with the tube guys.


it hasnt needed a firmware update since it was released. But the designer feels he can improve, so he does. Most people see it as a win. If there was a disclaimer saying “this is it” i still would have bought it lol.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

Budda said:


> You guys keep debating, i’ll enjoy the constant updates to my digital unit.


not so much a debate as learning over time and being open to newer tech. i'm not in a "camp" digital or analogue. have kits on "both sides" of the equation.
allot of digital solutions make sense. really depends.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Budda said:


> it hasnt needed a firmware update since it was released. But the designer feels he can improve, so he does. Most people see it as a win. If there was a disclaimer saying “this is it” i still would have bought it lol.


I've had to upgrade firmware for my Spark and for my QSC Touchmix30pro and I've had trouble doing it especially on the QSC. Ok, maybe I'm mentally challenged or something, but my never too humble opinion is, it should not be that difficult. I've had to bring it back to the store to have them do it and even they struggled.

I get that stuff can be improved. I work for a Japanese company and Kaizen is a daily fact of life, but when the thing won't even link up to the app because I haven't downloaded the new and improved firmware, that sort of pisses me off.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Fractal line6 and to my knowledge kemper dont have that issue.

Fire up the fractal editor and it will ask if you want to update the firmware or editor. A few folks found their sound and stopped.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

Paul C said:


> How important is the natural sweet spot of the amp vs clean tone at low levels and pedals to get overdrive/distortion.


this might be of interest to you.




preamp vs poweramp distortion. demo.

as well as
compressor or another gain before the amp ?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Vids are deadsies.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

Budda said:


> Vids are deadsies.


trying again


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

I have used a bunch of things to try to get my BIG tube amps to work at home. COVID has been a big motivator since in person gigs and jam sessions have been rare for the last couple of years. At home schooling has been an issue as well-its hard to record tube amps when you have a couple of high school/university students who are home most of the time.

My 3 main amps are a 100 watt Two Rock Bloomfield with a 212, a Matchless C-30 reverb head (also with the 212) and a Morris 69/70 head (modded plexiglass)

I've tried various solutions to get good recorded and headphone sounds. I started with a Suhr RLIR (a good box)-it recorded well but had a fizzy compression on the recordings that I didn't like and the clean sounds were a bit distorted. I then tried a Boss TAE-it gave me a lot more options and sounded very good, both for headphones and recorded sound but was a bit complicated to use and wire up. Next I tried the Mesa Cab Sim IR+, its what I'm currently using and I think its my favourite so far. It is great for dirty sounds with minimal fizz or compression, but is a bit flat for cleaner sounds-the TR sounds a bit dead unless you turn up the gain. The attenuator function is a GREAT feature, so I can use it for recording, headphones, or to attenuate-and the attenuated sound is very, very good. Up to about 8dB it is almost perfect.

Recently I've been trying amp sims as well-I have a set of Boss Waza air headphones-they sound really nice if a bit artificial-and the app is garbage-but they're quick and portable, and work great with pedalboards. I also have a Strymon Iridium on the way


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## Paul C (Jan 6, 2022)

zach_s said:


> this might be of interest to you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for sharing this. Learned a lot. Both preamp and power amp clearly adds richness to the tone. Would a gain/distortion/drive pedal act like a preamp? Or would I get the same richness that a power amp gives? 

And I’m a fan of compression pedals.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

Paul C said:


> Thanks for sharing this. Learned a lot. Both preamp and power amp clearly adds richness to the tone. Would a gain/distortion/drive pedal act like a preamp? Or would I get the same richness that a power amp gives?
> 
> And I’m a fan of compression pedals.


problem is when you try and engage the power stage of a tube amp you really have to crank it.
that's why power scaling feature is very useful. you control the max power of the amp so you can engage the power stage overdrive at low levels..

chaining overdrive and distortion pedals ... i've learned allot. plus EQ and compression.... stacking pedals.


others have noted that for the home a nice "dirt" pedal (or two but don't spend money. borrow and experiment) can help get multiple cascading gain stage kind of sound at reasonable volumes.

so say a boss blues driver or other overdrive you like + the preamp gain in the amp gives you multiple overdriven stages.
which kinda substitutes for pre and power overdrive stages in a tube amp.

without having to dial the amp way up.

you an also experiment with cmpressor up front or another dirt pedal.

hint: don't crank the overdrive pedal way up. start with modest drive/gain. depends what kind of music you want to play.
the preamp gain in the amplifier too. keep both modest at first.

then play with high overdrive pedal "dirt" and lower preamp gain in the amp
and the other way around until you get what you want.

the master or overall volume controls the final amplitude to keep it reasonable at home.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

Paul C said:


> Thanks for sharing this. Learned a lot. Both preamp and power amp clearly adds richness to the tone. Would a gain/distortion/drive pedal act like a preamp? Or would I get the same richness that a power amp gives?
> 
> And I’m a fan of compression pedals.


you may also find this tutorial on "Stacking" pedals useful. cascading gain experiments with muliple pedals.


----------



## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Always12AM said:


> at which point I said “HELL YA BROTHER” and kept playing until he manually turned it down.


that was pure gold, it made me cheer inside. 











zach_s said:


> speakers matter allot too


they do matter alot.
over the years, i tried 10 or 12 different small amps, both combo and head/cab. i also tried several s.s. and hybrid amps. i was living in an apt, and noise was a real issue. i never really found the sound i wanted, at a volume that was acceptable to my neighbors, and the others in my unit. i found a few good compromises though, and learned to live with it. the 2 that seemed to work best for me were a special 6 on a good 1x12, with pedals, and the roland cube 30 with or without them. i also have a line 6 pod gx on my computer, it comes with pod farm. that worked probably better than the amps. i think the reason for that is speakers. 

(insert usual disclaimers here, ymmv, etc.)

i don't think i can hear the nuances that make a tube amp great, until the speaker is moving a good amount of air.
with s.s. i didn't like the way it does break up because it's not very...i don't know how to say it... it just doesn't act the same with attack and sustain. but i could get a liveable compromise at fairly low levels. the pod farm came out through a good set of 5" monitors. making the speaker move at a lower volume was easier. i think that's why i used it more than the others.
these days i can get as loud as i want. and i do. the 12" speaker in my mesa is allowed to breathe properly, and i can get exactly what i was after the whole time. i still have the amp on the 15w setting, and it will go much louder than i normally push it. but now the speaker can move like it should, and i can hear the nuace from the tubes that i couldn't hear at apt. volumes.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

Paul C said:


> Thanks for sharing this. Learned a lot. Both preamp and power amp clearly adds richness to the tone. Would a gain/distortion/drive pedal act like a preamp? Or would I get the same richness that a power amp gives?
> 
> And I’m a fan of compression pedals.


on the inexpensive side used check out the vox AD30VT combo. can find them $120 to < $200.00 it has an output (not just master) final power control on the back of the amp. it isn't a typical modelling amp either. hybrid tube, solid state and analogue and digital. though it has digital effects, the models are analogue tube and transformer driven then passed onto the power stage solid state though an output transformer model. so it's like digital control OVER an analogue signal path. different than pure digital modelling like boss/roland. the potential advantage is that one can really push the tube stage naturally with both preamp gain and master volume BUT keep the watts at apartment friendly levels with the final output management on the back of the amp. worth a shot trying out in a pawnshop or used near you. if you can get the "cranked" character with low real output to your liking. attached is the vox manual for it. a unique and interesting effort on vox/korg's part.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

zach_s said:


> on the inexpensive side used check out the vox AD30VT combo. can find them $120 to < $200.00


addendum. it also has a compressor modes and parameter adjustments for the compression IIRC.
worth checking out IMO.


----------



## Paul C (Jan 6, 2022)

Thanks, will check it out.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

vox demo. 





anderton's demo for the newest version. "VTX" series. but the previous AD30VT is easily purchased cheap.





you can find independent demos too. the higher gain models need some finesse like using the compressor IMO. in this demo i admit the higher gain stuff isn't as good as the older amp models. at least not as an easy to tune into the character you want. the more blues and rock models are easy to tweak in. higher gain might take more work from what i've noticed. also if you want to play modern metal a bigger speaker version might be your choice. the 30 watt version has a 10" and it's made by celestion. the 50 watter has 12". the 50 watt version also has an external speaker jack for an independent cab.

maybe the 30 watt can be modded for a safe output to an external cab. i haven't looked into that yet.

but for $120-$180.00 used this amp does allot well Inexpensively. not short on performance either IMO. beats spending loads on an array of pedals to finesse another amplifier.

it has independent gain, volume and master controls.
plus a total hard limiter for final power on the back. that lets you get "high volume cranked" character at bedroom levels.

allot cheaper than a tube amp and a powerscale and pedals.

the vox has a special tube stage for output but that's there to mimic a high watt tube stage but solid state
is guided by the tube behaviour.

it's a very interesting and smart design. suspect it's an underappreciated amplifier. it took me a long time
to check it out after a recommendation. i'm slow to the party so to speak.

i like the "use like analogue" controls. sometimes you'll have to tweak the parameters but you can save them. again the higher gain models might need some extra effort to get what you want.

but for out of the box analogue work flow hybrid modelling and real tube ... for that price i suggest people check it out.

for the price of of a boss pedal or boutique pedal you get a real amp with lots of flex and a celestion speaker built to vox's spec.

kinda of a sleeper amp for now.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

3rd party demo of vox ADVT 30. gives the amp a different run.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

ADVT30 was my first amp and I remember it being a fun and decent practice amp. But it sounds canned in a live situation when you have to crank it, and it gets completely drowned out with drums. It's totally fine though if you want to play it at bedroom volumes or with another guitarist/bassist...as soon as drums come in, that amp falls way below the radar and it becomes really difficult to get proper feedback from it.


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## diyfabtone (Mar 9, 2016)

Vox AC-4. Use a big cab. Cranked it sounds fantastic in your room. Also maintains great tone down to very low volume. Best touch response I've ever heard. Put a mike in front of it and patch it through PA if you need stage volume. Use two of them! I built one from scratch using original circuit minus the Tremelo. Vox-AC4-Schematic.pdf (thetubestore.com). A Champ would work just as well but with less of that Brit chimey vibe.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

diyfabtone said:


> Vox AC-4. Use a big cab. Cranked it sounds fantastic in your room. Also maintains great tone down to very low volume. Best touch response I've ever heard. Put a mike in front of it and patch it through PA if you need stage volume. Use two of them! I built one from scratch using original circuit minus the Tremelo. Vox-AC4-Schematic.pdf (thetubestore.com). A Champ would work just as well but with less of that Brit chimey vibe.


This is very true. Had an ac4 briefly and ran it through a 412 Marshall cab and it sounded great.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> ADVT30 was my first amp and I remember it being a fun and decent practice amp. But it sounds canned in a live situation when you have to crank it, and it gets completely drowned out with drums. It's totally fine though if you want to play it at bedroom volumes or with another guitarist/bassist...as soon as drums come in, that amp falls way below the radar and it becomes really difficult to get proper feedback from it.


thanks for that additional info. i'd guess the 12" and 50 watt version is more friendly live. i have an AC4TV i love but really pleasantly surprised by this used score for easy living room access.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

diyfabtone said:


> Vox AC-4. Use a big cab. Cranked it sounds fantastic in your room. Also maintains great tone down to very low volume. Best touch response I've ever heard. Put a mike in front of it and patch it through PA if you need stage volume. Use two of them! I built one from scratch using original circuit minus the Tremelo. Vox-AC4-Schematic.pdf (thetubestore.com). A Champ would work just as well but with less of that Brit chimey vibe.


for sure. though i do like the power control on the AD30VT. i have an AC4TV as well. the AD30VT is 2010 2011 ? improved modelling since early 2000s. they hybrid approach seems to make a difference too though i think vox and yamaha use discrete modelling vs boss/roland composite object modelling to get "tubey" behaviour out of modellign maps.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

diyfabtone said:


> Vox AC-4. Use a big cab. Cranked it sounds fantastic in your room. Also maintains great tone down to very low volume. Best touch response I've ever heard. Put a mike in front of it and patch it through PA if you need stage volume. Use two of them! I built one from scratch using original circuit minus the Tremelo. Vox-AC4-Schematic.pdf (thetubestore.com). A Champ would work just as well but with less of that Brit chimey vibe.


even more fun putting an negative feedback control in the champ vs fixed. some people use toggles with fixed resistors others use a pot. be careful though. really gets loud and dirty more quickly.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

zach_s said:


> thanks for that additional info. i'd guess the 12" and 50 watt version is more friendly live. i have an AC4TV i love but really pleasantly surprised by this used score for easy living room access.


Certainly, NP


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

true. ACTV4 to external properly sized speaker(s) can sound great.

though i wanted to mention the ADVT30 watter because it has a final power output control on the back of the cabinet.
a big part of the thread was "love the tube amps but even champs and vox 4 watters are too loud for home".

great sound too loud.

so nabbed an ADVT30 for fun at a good price and it has nice control over final output.
can get "cranked" character without neighbors calling the police.

there's preamp gain control, preamp output control, master volume control AND power scale. no power soak requred.

dial 0.1 to 30 watts
so maybe it's not 100% there for some ears but some models are so close it's a who cares scenario given the upsides and price.

the bedroom midnight / apt. friendly volume issue is solved if one likes most of the amp characters you can get out of this thing. plus it's hybrid not just a pure model. it's a staged model with discrete stages controlled to get "tubier" behaviour than a straight up modeller.

one can use a classic analogue workflow pretty much.

so one can "crank" the gain and preamp and master but play at 1/10th of a watt real output and get
that pre and power tube dirt mix. it even mimics class A or AB depending on the model chosen.

also depends what kind of music you like to play. i'm sure not all models will thrill every player but 
allot of inexpensive bang for buck here IMO. and again i have tube amps. but this was a fun inexpensive find.
beats another pedal ! : )

a friend of mine who was in a band and used to sell allot of used gear (less so now) tried to tip me of to it when it came out.
and i never got around to checking it out. 

all this time later ...

he was right. surprising results for the price and features.
seems the higher metal gain stuff needs a little more work than just twist some basic knobs
vs the older model choices.

but can get there with a little more effort. eg good use of a compressor (there's one onboard too).





diyfabtone said:


> Vox AC-4. Use a big cab. Cranked it sounds fantastic in your room. Also maintains great tone down to very low volume. Best touch response I've ever heard. Put a mike in front of it and patch it through PA if you need stage volume. Use two of them! I built one from scratch using original circuit minus the Tremelo. Vox-AC4-Schematic.pdf (thetubestore.com). A Champ would work just as well but with less of that Brit chimey vibe.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

@zach_s You nailed it. It's a good value proposition, especially for a bedroom practice amp. Tonally its limitations are on the surface, and if you don't need the boom and air-flow of a real tube amp, it'll do just fine. I remember that it did benefit greatly from a decent overdrive pedal (I had purchased an OCD v1.3 w/ 18W adapter) and it lifted the ceiling a lot...almost like taking a magnifying glass to the output.


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## diyfabtone (Mar 9, 2016)

So many options! I also use powered scaled amps (installed London Power kits in a AC-30 clone and YBA-1) to get cranked tone at low volume.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

"big fan" of kevin oconner's scaling at london power. yes if one has the money and patience and is a tube purist that scaler is worth it. cheaper than a power soaker and better. power soakers are kinda rube goldberg vs the london power scaling designs IMO.

the original poster wanted some hints for decent home amp and many chimed in low watt tube amps. though they are loud even as "mere" 4-5 watt vox4 and champ like combos. many people noted. i agree.

so scaling is an option. the vox AC4TV has a switched basic sorta scalar in it but not an even tone/overdrive profile.

but the ADTV30 / 50 have all the gain volume and master controls to dial in preamp and power amp overdrive character PLUS a power control (like the scalar but no sag control) from 0.1 watts to 30/50 watts depending on the amp model.

the power control in that hybrid amp is fairly neutral. from whisper to neighbours call the cops,

so i suggested low cost, very good performance, home use and power limiting a used ADTV30 is worth checking out.
especially for beginners. it has minor negs as mutant noted but for home tubish and controlled power output independent of master and gain ... wow. a bargain used at $120-180 IMO.

love the all tube stuff. it can get pricey no rush to buy that when good used can be had with bedroom control in it.

the adtv30 is also a hybrid. employs tube for tube behaviour but passes on the heavy lifting to the solid state power stage. a tube and transformer like transfer function. that's vox's goal anyway. it's not a typical modeller like boss/roland.

it has minor downsides but for the price used ... can't complain. it's quite a pleasant surprise kicking this thing around for fun.

i can't recall if the yamaha TH "desktop" (small heads) amp series has a final power control or not.
yamaha does good models differently too. it has a small built in speaker too. used market can be reasonable.










diyfabtone said:


> So many options! I also use powered scaled amps (installed London Power kits in a AC-30 clone and YBA-1) to get cranked tone at low volume.


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## MadCarrot (10 mo ago)

I was on the exact same boat. I end up with a Marshall DSL40CR and my mom got a Blackstar HT5R mk II. I must say the black star is great and pleasure to play. Steves music and cosmos have them on demo.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

further to the home level but "Cranked tone" asepcts of this dicussion later on.

traynor DG65R and traynor DG60R have "dial a watt" features built in !
they are solid state but not typical solid state. traynor really worked on 
the dynamics to get more "Tubish" behaviour from those amps.

there may be others.

the "master" is not a traditional master.

it's a total power output control. which is different.

so dial zero watts to 60 watts.
but you set the gain and volume to get your tone
and the "master" to get your total watt output
to suit your practice space.

at home quietly you likely need less then one watt
as guitar speakers are 90dB or more 1 meter away 
putting 1 watt power into it.

but full tilt is loud enough for stage use.

well designed amps and under appreciated.
cruise used.

EG
dial a watt feature pic on the traynors.
"master" is not what most people think it is in this amp.
it's "powr output" from zero to 65 watts.













manuals attached.
you can cruise the "Dyanagain" series by traynor for more models that _might_ have the powerscale feature.
these are REAL amplifiers. well designed. well thought out. well built.





Paul C said:


> Looking for a home set up. I will likely never play outside of a home environment. Right now, I'm using a Positive Grid Spark with good monitoring headphones. Really happy with this set up for practice. I can listen to a lesson or YouTube song/backing track and my guitar at the same time on my headphones. I'm satisfied with this sound. Once in a while I would like to play through speakers and I'm not pleased with the 4" speakers on the Spark.
> 
> Would a tube amp suit my needs to play at home through a speaker? My understanding is, you get the most out of a tube when you can hit the sweet spot (edge of breakup).
> 
> [...]


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

zach_s said:


> further to the home level but "Cranked tone" asepcts of this dicussion later on.
> 
> traynor DG65R and traynor DG60R have "dial a watt" features built in !
> they are solid state but not typical solid state. traynor really worked on
> the dynamics to get more "Tubish" behaviour from those amps.


Yes these amps are fantastic.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

zach_s said:


> further to the home level but "Cranked tone" asepcts of this dicussion later on.
> 
> traynor DG65R and traynor DG60R have "dial a watt" features built in !
> they are solid state but not typical solid state. traynor really worked on
> ...


I've kept the smaller DG30 around for student use mostly, though it's lots enough for most home uses. I swapped out the speaker for a Cannabis Rex to tame the treble a bit.

For home tube amps I've been using a pair of small Laney amps, a Cub10 and a Cub Super 12. The 12 has a 1 watt input that's very useful.


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## gphfxns (6 mo ago)

g#m said:


> After much exploration - starting with 15watt BJ (too loud for home use), then Swart STR Tremolo (5 watts - lovely tone but very, very loud), I have happlily settled with a Vibro Champ (1973) where I use my Timmy pedal to adjust volume, eq and dirt as required.
> 
> I find that this arrangement provides me with the right balance between awesome tube amp tone (clean and dirt as adjusted on the Timmy) and volume that is acceptable to my ears and family members. I would also look to new reissue Vibro Champs - they seem to be nice amps at 5 watts.


Use a '78 Vibro Champ with an old Boss GT-3. Gives me loads of tone options, at comfortable volume for home use.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

zach_s said:


> improved modelling since early 2000s. they hybrid approach seems to make a difference too though i think vox and yamaha use discrete modelling vs boss/roland composite object modelling to get "tubey" behaviour out of modellign maps.


What's the difference between "discrete" vs "composite object" modelling... I've never heard of this before.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

isoneedacoffee said:


> What's the difference between "discrete" vs "composite object" modelling... I've never heard of this before.


hi. sorry for the delay. composite goes along the lines of input ----> a bunch of stuff among many components happens ----> output.
and you correlate input and output in the model.
discrete object is along the lines of modelling the behaviour of some of the key components and incorporating those in a digital model. EG discrete models might include transformer interactions with speaker for the output transformer among other stages the designer deems important. so parts of the "black box" between input and output are considered.

composite object just treats the system as a black box and maps input to output of the amp they are modelling.

even in analogue solid state amps ... designers like traynor mimic the behavouir of the intereactions among output stage transformer and speaker as the volume goes up. like the dynagain 65 and dynagain 60.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

zach_s said:


> hi. sorry for the delay. composite goes along the lines of input ----> a bunch of stuff among many components happens ----> output.
> and you correlate input and output in the model.
> discrete object is along the lines of modelling the behaviour of some of the key components and incorporating those in a digital model. EG discrete models might include transformer interactions with speaker for the output transformer among other stages the designer deems important. so parts of the "black box" between input and output are considered.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the explanation. Where did you read that Vox and Yamaha uses discrete modelling while and Boss/Roland uses composite? I have both a Yamaha THR10 and a Katana and am just curious about that difference in approach and would love to look more into it.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

isoneedacoffee said:


> Thanks for the explanation. Where did you read that Vox and Yamaha uses discrete modelling while and Boss/Roland uses composite? I have both a Yamaha THR10 and a Katana and am just curious about that difference in approach and would love to look more into it.


i know a musician in vancouver who didn't like modelling but he admitted they've come a long wayin 20 years. in part using FPGA 
technology to better finesse touch reponse and lag etc. he has a THR and gets some good tone out of it in small spaces like at home or busking. his stage amps are usually in storage or lent to others.

anyway COSM is the boss/roland tag for its technology. it stands for composite object sound modelling. probably more on the website.

the vox writeup for the valvetronix series notes how it uses both digital control over analogue and modelling
to mimic some "tube amp like" behaviour.

yamaha also has its writeup that mentions discrete component topology.

you can find the writeups on the websites and i think in the manuals for at least vox and yamaha digital modellers.


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## MarkM (May 23, 2019)

It’s odd how these “tube amp for home use” threads always go to SS amps then modelling!


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

i think the features best mentioned for home use are those with universal output control.
attenuation or scaling below 1 watt.

that can be any. SS tube or modelling. this is seperate from "master". it's power scaling.
i have both SS and tube amps with scalars or attentuation on the output stage.

can have both preamp gain and master and power scaling too.

a tube amp with power scaling to zero watts can dial in "cranked tube" kind of breakup 
while being "house broken" for home use without cops.

the traynors i mentioned are both solid state but have the SAME feature. zero watts to full.
so it's not just a tube vs ss vs modelling affair. in the case of traynor they behave like tube amps 
and are desgined that way. of course traynor also builds tube amps.

no all solid state or modellers are designed to mimic powerstage behaviour of tube amps when "Cranked".

vox vavetronix (at least the 30 watt version) is tube with control over solid state power stage and object modelling. it's hybrid.
it has both gain master and universal output like a power scalar. similar.
design is supposed to mimic an all tube re power stage. it has a zero to 30 control on the the back.

yamaha DG80 with the midi controlled motorized knobs also has gain, volume/master AND a total universal output control. kinda of a digital modelling scalar to mimic powerstage compression. have yet to audition one myself.

there are tube options for home use easily. not limited to SS or digi.

if tube amps don't have the feature built in kevin o'conner at london power
has reasonablly priced scalars for various amp designs. from zero to max.

some are a better fit
than others and you'd need to hire someone to install it unless you have high 
tube amp skills.

check out kevin o'conner's london power site for scaling.
i think they are offered as OE options in amps like shur and others.
i can't keep track. some boutique stuff anyway.

tone king used to have a london power like scalar in it's "metro" combo vs the attenuator.
dunno what happened there. nice amp. now dead. tone king seems to have found a niche
in high end classic amps. just wish they didn't cost so damn much.

kevin's scalars and sag circuits are frankly more refined than attenutators IMO.
they control at the amplification stages not in place of a speaker load. loads are too rube goldberg
in my opinion.

not slagging tone king products. i quite like them. can't afford. sound great. but very pricey for me.
i don't know why tone king went "ironman" method only vs something like london power's 
scaling as in the metro. now discontinued.

and scalars can cost less. even installed (though that varies).
vs something like a tone king attenuator.

additionally there are allot of low watt tube amps with attenutation.
not scaling (continutious zero to max) but stepped swtiched.

like vox ACTV combo. 1/4 watt. 1 watt 4 watt or thereabouts.

SS vs model vs tube really depends what the player wants.
tube sound in home can be done but the scaling needs to be very low watt capable.

EG something like 15 watts vs 7.5 watts ... 7.5 is way too loud for housebroken levels.

remember 1 watt at 1 metre away brings over 93dB for guitar speakers.
that's loud. not slight.

so you can see why scaling from zero is the best home use fit for tube amps.

there are options out there. but scalars as opposed to "power brake" like attentuators
aren't very well known for some reason.

i guess something like ironman is popular because it's p[ortable from amp to amp
unlike integrated scaling and some people like to turn over their gear allot.

hope that kinda widens the playing field.










MarkM said:


> It’s odd how these “tube amp for home use” threads always go to SS amps then modelling!


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

dare i mention use of impulse reponse tech?
but this was a thread about amps and home levels.
not DAWs through monitors.

though that can be an option these days. cost, space, 
home volumes ... 

chaining overdrive and/or distortion pedals were also mentioned
before a tube or SS amp
though not quite the same as power stage can yield results suitable for some.

the range of overdrive character one can get with a parametric EQ and a pedal then the amp
is eye opening.






MarkM said:


> It’s odd how these “tube amp for home use” threads always go to SS amps then modelling!


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

MarkM said:


> It’s odd how these “tube amp for home use” threads always go to SS amps then modelling!


Been there, done that, lived to regret it. I still prefer guitar > tube amp (or two). Or if I need FX, guitar > multi-FX > tube amp (or two). The tone I hear in my head is pretty old school/my teenage bedroom set-up. Can't help it, I'm like a salmon that has imprinted on a stream.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

fun way to put it. home stream is tube.

just listing options i've run across.
i have more than one tube amp. surprise surprise !





Mooh said:


> Been there, done that, lived to regret it. I still prefer guitar > tube amp (or two). Or if I need FX, guitar > multi-FX > tube amp (or two). The tone I hear in my head is pretty old school/my teenage bedroom set-up. Can't help it, I'm like a salmon that has imprinted on a stream.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Mooh said:


> Been there, done that, lived to regret it. I still prefer guitar > tube amp (or two). Or if I need FX, guitar > multi-FX > tube amp (or two). The tone I hear in my head is pretty old school/my teenage bedroom set-up. Can't help it, I'm like a salmon that has imprinted on a stream.


I guess the question would be what device did you try in what year? 2020’s modelling is not 2010’s modelling.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

couldnt' afford a tube amp in high school VERY long time ago. SS was affordable used. very.
and pedals were expensive so i learned simple circuits, how to over drive tape decks
and make so etc.

then toying with a pedal and other methods. i find the experience worth it to craft tone
but don't know how patient young players are today with that "old school" stuff given all the options.

tube amp was a reward as young adult for landing decent job but still a modest buy.




Mooh said:


> Been there, done that, lived to regret it. I still prefer guitar > tube amp (or two). Or if I need FX, guitar > multi-FX > tube amp (or two). The tone I hear in my head is pretty old school/my teenage bedroom set-up. Can't help it, I'm like a salmon that has imprinted on a stream.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

zach_s said:


> couldnt' afford a tube amp in high school VERY long time ago. SS was affordable used. very.
> and pedals were expensive so i learned simple circuits, how to over drive tape decks
> and make so etc.
> 
> ...


1972. $0.25 for a Harmony amp at a church rummage sale. They thought it was a radio that didn't work. SS in 1972 was so much blech, imho. I also had two Seabreeze reel-to-reel recorders, one of which especially got bastardized as a sort of pre-amp, though I wouldn't have called it that then.



Budda said:


> I guess the question would be what device did you try in what year? 2020’s modelling is not 2010’s modelling.


Fair enough, but I can't afford to flip back and forth as new tech appears, I can barely afford what I have so I stay put in arrested economic development.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Fortunately some companies update their product for years before the next piece is released. I know there are still many happy axefx 2 owners even though we are on version 2 of the iii.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Budda said:


> Fortunately some companies update their product for years before the next piece is released. I know there are still many happy axefx 2 owners even though we are on version 2 of the iii.


Hell man, we been updating Tube Amps for almost 100 years and they are still the bloody same 🤣


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Mark Brown said:


> Hell man, we been updating Tube Amps for almost 100 years and they are still the bloody same 🤣


Exactly!


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

When or does technology mature? Nowadays, I believe that products become obsolete before they fully mature. Is there a demand for rapid change, now?


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

personally i'm about options. there is a diff with current modelling either device or DAW vs 2000 2010.
a digital path these days can get you to "produced" or "like on record" sounds fast. have to acknowledge the newer stuff.

when i grew up trying to "get that sound" was a real mystery and challenge. part of the skill and fun for sure but then that opened the door to obessing over what to buy vs becoming a better player and i'm guilty of overbuying stuff when i got a "real job" later in life. gear fetish is a common issue today no matter what one uses.

but i'll say there was and is value experimenting with EQs and overdrives and compressors in the signal chain to a tube amp or a quality solid state. or if a modeller offers that kind of component control.

any tech can be abused and it depends on the player but "paint by numbers" is a real threat.
though for people starting out a solid tone base easily chosen does open up time for practise practise practise.
and that's important.

to stick back to the original topic ... iv'e said it before but tube amps can be home friendly with proper control of the output.
past "master" volume. meaning scaling, attentuation or power soak from fractions of a watt to over 1 watt.

some have that. some have "half power" but 7 watts vs 14 doesn't help.




Budda said:


> I guess the question would be what device did you try in what year? 2020’s modelling is not 2010’s modelling.


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## MarkM (May 23, 2019)

MarkM said:


> It’s odd how these “tube amp for home use” threads always go to SS amps then modelling!


All I am saying is why can’t a “tube amp for home use” discuss tube amps for home use?

we could also have a “SS amp for home use” and a “IR for home use” thread to discuss these amps.

I get it you are getting great results, I am still using tube amps!


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

you're right. the orignal thread was tube amp for home use.
it morphed. thanks for the refocus.

i suspect lack of knowledge about scaling and like methods
and knowing you have to control the total output from zero to 1 watt
to get "cranked tube" sound without "disturbing the peace"
in apts condos and many homes.

attenutators like ironman are expensive.
turns people off perhaps.

the london power scaler by kevin oconner seems reasonable to me.
tames total output from zero to max without sacrificing "master" "volume" and "gain" settings.

there are amps with "1/2 power" but that's not reduced enough. eg 14 to 7 watts.
really need zero to 1 watt control for dB sensitive areas.

not dumping my tube amps personally. modding them and learning to install scalling. that's my path.
not trying to talk anyone out of their preferred tech.

also trying out a tonebone trimode i bought used reasonably but that's still not scaling.
scaling permits pretty much "Same character at any output level" when done well.

using premaps like a tonebone is a different way to go but i expeirment with it. compression can help
but the dynamics vs powerstage "squash" differ.

maybe it hard for people to understand when starting out ? that
93dB at 1 watt ain't quiet but that's not intuitive.
it's LOUD.

and some speakers output more than that at 1 watt.







MarkM said:


> All I am saying is why can’t a “tube amp for home use” discuss tube amps for home use?
> 
> we could also have a “SS amp for home use” and a “IR for home use” thread to discuss these amps.
> 
> I get it you are getting great results, I am still using tube amps!


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

I thought my Dr Z Maz 18 was a good home amp. Wife went out tonight and I turned the master to noon. Who knew 18 watts was so loud. Still a great amp, but it certainly has an unruly side. now I have to go find the cat.


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## MarkM (May 23, 2019)

BlueRocker said:


> I thought my Dr Z Maz 18 was a good home amp. Wife went out tonight and I turned the master to noon. Who knew 18 watts was so loud. Still a great amp, but it certainly has an unruly side. now I have to go find the cat.


Cat will come back when it is hungry!


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## PowerChord (6 mo ago)

Digital into quality monitors or tube amp > load box > interface > monitors. Good sound with tube amps at low volume is tough because a lot of that sound is from the speaker being pushed, and the speaker won't get pushed unless the amp is cookin.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

At home volume levels the only difference I can hear between my 65 Princeton Reissue and this one on that setting is although the Super Champs reverb is pretty darn good the Princetons reverb can't be beat. Other than that with a 12AX7 and two 6V6's it's got tube tone to spare.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

further to component (discrete) vs composite ...
yamaha and korg used to share tech before korg merged vox.
both analogue days and digital.

the korg D3200 digital mixer and recorder (and maybe the korg D1600 not sure about the older one)
has a "tube bias" control. that's very low level discrete component modelling there. bias "hot" or not.

that's another example of discrete vs COSM.
it's hard to find in the manual but the manual is easy to find.
korg D3200 digital recorder and mixer.

the tube bias is buried in the preamp settings.
the mixer has many tube amp models on board.

it's older tech. 2005 or so.

attached is a preamp settings bit form the D3200 manual. that's discrete/component level control. atypically low level too. bias that is.






isoneedacoffee said:


> Thanks for the explanation. Where did you read that Vox and Yamaha uses discrete modelling while and Boss/Roland uses composite? I have both a Yamaha THR10 and a Katana and am just curious about that difference in approach and would love to look more into it.


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## munrodeo (Feb 17, 2021)

As someone who’s needed totally silent rigs for apartment and home use, the best compromise I found a few years ago was to run my pedalboard into a tube amp head, connected a Suhr reactive load box with an IR for headphone use.

Moved on to using an HX Stomp for headphone use, because it’s just easier to travel with.

When I do crank my tube amps now, I honestly use 3M hearing protection with earplugs underneath. Being in the same room as a cranked tube amp is amazing, but also damaging to your ears.


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## Rooster69 (4 mo ago)

Paul C said:


> Looking for a home set up. I will likely never play outside of a home environment. Right now, I'm using a Positive Grid Spark with good monitoring headphones. Really happy with this set up for practice. I can listen to a lesson or YouTube song/backing track and my guitar at the same time on my headphones. I'm satisfied with this sound. Once in a while I would like to play through speakers and I'm not pleased with the 4" speakers on the Spark.
> 
> If you are looking for that tube amp sound, you only have one option that is to invest in one that will give you what you want at home in your room and will also provide you with the ability to take up a notch for practice with a band then up another notch for live performance!
> For example: you could invest in a Mesa Express 5:50 this amp is a full tube amp that allows you to select 5watts 25watts or 50watts so this will cover most bases. One unit tube sound variable wattage! That particular amp is versatile in that it also has 4 channels and covers just about every genre of music! These are also quite affordable on the used market!
> ...





Paul C said:


> Looking for a home set up. I will likely never play outside of a home environment. Right now, I'm using a Positive Grid Spark with good monitoring headphones. Really happy with this set up for practice. I can listen to a lesson or YouTube song/backing track and my guitar at the same time on my headphones. I'm satisfied with this sound. Once in a while I would like to play through speakers and I'm not pleased with the 4" speakers on the Spark.
> 
> Would a tube amp suit my needs to play at home through a speaker? My understanding is, you get the most out of a tube when you can hit the sweet spot (edge of breakup).
> 
> ...


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## hatspin (Aug 19, 2019)

No amount of power scaling or attenuation will make a tube amp sound as good at apartment-friendly volumes as a modeler.

Most complaints people have about the tone or feel of modelers at this point is entirely misguided/uneducated/outdated. The playback system is the only remaining difference - i.e. if you played a modeler through a clean power amp and a cab, it'd be completely indistinguishable from a tube amp, while still giving you more flexibility over volume because the power amp distortion/sag is not dependent on volume.

Our perception of tone changes a lot with volume, as does the way the guitar sustains when hit with a wall of sound. Neither of these are a detriment to modelers but are a direct consequence of the playback system.

If you need flexibility over your volume, get a modeler. If you're always going to be playing at low volume, get some monitor speakers. If you want something simple to use and can always play at high volume, get a tube amp. Don't get the wrong tool for the job 

Sent from my SM-G970W using Tapatalk


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## Rooster69 (4 mo ago)

Correct on all accounts Professor!


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

if interested. cf laney LA studio. 3 watt. 0.1 watt. direct out and cab out. torpedo modelling. midi. usb.
3 watts not 30.

if there are those interested in tube amps for home, home studio, practise ....
reasonable demo


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## Simon Peterson (Aug 20, 2019)

In my experience a big amp at lower volumes sounds better than a small amp at lower volumes. If you want to crank a small amp into sounding good territory then it's loud as hell, but a bigger amp will still sound great at bedroom levels. For distortion you're gonna need a pedal. I have a Traynor YBA-1A, running into two super twin 2x15s, and it's currently in my bedroom, played at bedroom levels. It sounds fucking fantastic. Get an amp that you can play at home AND in large venues.


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## elburnando (11 mo ago)

The 1watt marshall heads are excellent. I have a JCM1 mini stack, and i usually use it on the 0.1w setting. 1 watt cranked is quite loud. They make the DSL1 which sounds great at home volume levels, and also has the 0.1w setting. As said, Laney is a great choice too.


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## zach_s (Jan 6, 2022)

jc maillet added attenuation and other mods.
the "TV" vox has switched attenuation for "3am" noodling OE.

but it's a bit muddy with humbuckers. that's been modded among other parts of the circuit.

jc is in / around vancouver. he's a musician and enginner.
his mods are not just "feature for feature's sake" but useful and progressive for the musician.

so here's an example of enhanced low dB tube output without sacrificing tone.
he's done the same kind of thing with fender champs.

dig this video with the voxACTV4.
10" speker version.






JC's site.





-







viva-analog.com





the AVCTV4 had a short run and some lucky people picked 'em up cheap end of line.
they've since become silly priced on the used market but they go up and down.

the monoprice tube amps are supposed to be decent but i assume require mods as well.
to really get what you want in terms of dirt and final dB control for 3am practice sessions at home.

so for those interested in tube amps at home.
this is a way to go.

also champ modded for fine tuning.
or champ kit and JCs mods.

it's great stuff IMO.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I think the most important feature in an amp for lower volume home use is having a master volume. I’ve got a ‘94 Twin (with the high/low power switch on the back) and an ‘82 Deluxe Reverb II. You wouldn’t think either is particularly bedroom volume suitable but the master volume, artificially pushing the tubes without necessarily increasing the volume, but they work excellently. In fact the Twin I have is the most versatile amp I own. I can play clean at ear bleed levels all the way to playing with an over driven sound at bedroom levels just by turning a few knobs.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

zach_s said:


> if interested. cf laney LA studio. 3 watt. 0.1 watt. direct out and cab out. torpedo modelling. midi. usb.
> 3 watts not 30.
> 
> if there are those interested in tube amps for home, home studio, practise ....
> reasonable demo


Cool and interesting. I often use the 1 watt input of my Laney Cub Super 12.






Laney Amplification - Since 1967


Laney is the signature of high quality British guitar and bass amplifiers. When Lyndon Laney needed an amp for his band in 1966, little did he know that the amp he made was the start of a long journey, a journey spanning over 50 years and every continent on the planet.




www.laney.co.uk


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## elburnando (11 mo ago)

Mooh said:


> Cool and interesting. I often use the 1 watt input of my Laney Cub Super 12.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1watt is great for home. I have a JCM1 marshall mini stack, and usuallly just ha e it on the 0.1w setting. The Laney L5 studio is a great home amp too.I


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

elburnando said:


> 1watt is great for home. I have a JCM1 marshall mini stack, and usuallly just ha e it on the 0.1w setting. The Laney L5 studio is a great home amp too.I


This tells me 0.10W is great for home use.


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