# A Fakai/Tokai consensus?



## Mutron

Last week I (knowingly) purchased one of the storied/infamous Canadian market only MIK "Fakai" Tokai Love Rocks. It is a gold top with P90's, damn heavy and plays and sounds totally amazing.
From what I can tell by doing some internet digging is that these were made to a higher spec than "official" MIK Tokais and they were only made for a couple years.
Anybody have extra info on this?
I don't even pretend to know the murky circumstances of why/how they were made and I'm not even sure I care all that much. I'm not really a brand purist and not too concerned about resale value. I do a lot of gigging and beat the hell out of my guitars so I mainly value solid workhorses that get the job done and I won't cry about if they knocked around or beer soaked. As much as I would love a real gold top, it would be almost useless to me as I would feel I couldn't bring it out of my house.
I've seen people on the Tokai registry site freaking out over these and calling them plywood fakes etc. but it seems none of them are from Canada and have not played them at all. I've had guitar store people who've seen them around tell me if you see one, grab it.
Fake, real - doesn't really matter as I really like it and it plays better than the Gibson studio 50's tribute (which felt like a plastic toy in comparison).
I'm just wondering if anybody else owns one of these and if there is a consensus as to their quality, mine seems great and it's a real player.
Feedback anyone?


http://s1122.photobucket.com/albums/l527/mutron77/


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## GuitarsCanada

Some info here for you

http://www.guitarscanada.com/electric-guitar/32867-my-canadian-fakai.html


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## bobb

GuitarsCanada said:


> Some info here for you
> 
> http://www.guitarscanada.com/electric-guitar/32867-my-canadian-fakai.html


That thread brings back memories. :smilie_flagge17:


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## Mutron

Thanks, lots of good info in that thread! I guess what happened behind the scenes is still a bit of a mystery but it seems that everyone who has one likes it, which is the important thing. I'm curious to see how they'll hold up over the years, apart from cheap tuners mine seems built like a tank. Can't wait for a sunburst with humbuckers to cross my path...


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## GuitarsCanada

Yes, I have not seen any real negative reports on them


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## Robert1950




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## sulphur

I have one that I picked up in this forum.

Quality is superb. Fit and finish is flawless.

I can't complain.


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## sulphur

OK, so after going through that whole thread, I'm a little confused.

So were Tokai originally built in Japan, then in Korea?

There was talk about the truss rod cover, either having one or three screws for the Fakais and MIKs.
Mine has two screws in the truss rod cover, is that MIJ then?


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## bobb

Tokai are Japanese. They also have budget models that were made in Korea, now China.


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## smorgdonkey

bobb said:


> Tokai are Japanese. They also have budget models that were made in Korea, now China.


That is completely not applicable to this specific topic - don't you think?


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## LowWatt

bobb said:


> Tokai are Japanese. They also have budget models that were made in Korea, now China.





smorgdonkey said:


> That is completely not applicable to this specific topic - don't you think?


Pretty sure he was trying answer one of Sulphur's questions above (quoted below)



sulphur said:


> So were Tokai originally built in Japan, then in Korea?


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## Robert1950

The Canadian Fakais were built in Korea at the factory that made guitars for Dillion Canada.


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## sulphur

Ya I kind of asked the question there smorgdonkey, thanks bobb and LowWatt.

I assumed that what I have is MIJ, then after this thread I wasn't too sure.
So, going through the older thread that was posted, I was kind of confused (not hard to do).
I'm kind of turned off about going to the Tokai registery after reading the other thread.
Maybe I'd be OK that it isn't a Fakai. 8P

I tried to research a couple of other MIJ guitars that I have and it was a frustrating and fruitless endeavor,
so I hadn't even looked around about the Tokai I have.


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## Mutron

Now into the realm of the slightly more hypothetical, does anyone think that after all the dust has settled on the issue that these guitars may be accepted as what they are and kind of take on their own unique value one day? There origins may be clouded and people outside of Canada generally don't accept them as real Tokais but they seem to be all made well and if their numbers dwindle it's conceivable there could be a kind of "outsider" desire for these. A limited run of a controversially made guitar of good quality kind of implies this scenario, if previous guitar history is anything to go off of.


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## sulphur

You'd think that a line of guitars, with better quality wood selection,
only made for a limited number of years would be quite desirable.

They'll be sought after like the MIJs have been in the last while,
after everyone else wakes up and realizes the quality, imo.


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## Robert1950

They will always be a bit of an outsider thing. But there will always be those who like outsider stuff. As for the Tokai Registry and the forum there, they will always take the Spanish Inquisition approach about the Canadian Fakai. I think their value will be unique, but so much in a monetary way.


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## Mutron

Which is fine by me! If I can buy more on the cheap and if they stay under the radar of guitar thieves and price jackers I will be quite happy.


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## smorgdonkey

LowWatt said:


> Pretty sure he was trying answer one of Sulphur's questions above (quoted below)





sulphur said:


> Ya I kind of asked the question there smorgdonkey, thanks bobb and LowWatt.


Uh...yes guys. I was obviously a little high strung this morning.

My apologies bobb, normally when I get bitchy, I at least know what I am getting bitchy about!:food-smiley-015:


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## sneakypete

Mutron said:


> Now into the realm of the slightly more hypothetical, does anyone think that after all the dust has settled on the issue that these guitars may be accepted as what they are and kind of take on their own unique value one day? There origins may be clouded and people outside of Canada generally don't accept them as real Tokais but they seem to be all made well and if their numbers dwindle it's conceivable there could be a kind of "outsider" desire for these. A limited run of a controversially made guitar of good quality kind of implies this scenario, if previous guitar history is anything to go off of.



I look at it this way...if it plays good and sounds good...it is good...if this were Harmony Central I`d tell those people outside Canada what they can do to themselves but...this is not HC. If I only bought guitars based on what other people think, I wouldn`t have any, frankly I never bought one worrying about what a bunch of people on the inter net may or may not think....with all do respect. I please myself and could not care any less about what people I never met think...present company excluded, of course.


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## JHarasym

Perhaps these are appreciating in value :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tokai-Love-...al_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item19c9770fb4


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## smorgdonkey

JHarasym said:


> Perhaps these are appreciating in value :
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tokai-Love-...al_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item19c9770fb4


I don't think so. I don't think that is a 'Canadian' one (a Fakai) as they were known to have no serial number and I don't think that the Made in Japan ones are worth even close to that much. However, 'worth' is in the eye and the wallet of the purchaser and if someone buys one for that much...they used to say that there was one born every minute (IMO).


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## Robert1950

JHarasym said:


> Perhaps these are appreciating in value :
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tokai-Love-...al_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item19c9770fb4


That model is on par with the Gibson Historics, generally speaking. One piece Honduras mahogany body, etc. There are those who say it out performs the Historics, and those who will say not.


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## GuitarsCanada

JHarasym said:


> Perhaps these are appreciating in value :
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Tokai-Love-...al_Instruments_Guitars_CV&hash=item19c9770fb4


Seems like a hell of a lot of money to me


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## Alex Csank

sneakypete said:


> ...if it plays good and sounds good...it is good...I never bought one worrying about what a bunch of people on the inter net may or may not think....I please myself and could not care any less about what people I never met think.


Well said, very well said!!! That's exactly how I feel. 

I would love to find a nice 'Fakai' someday actually.


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## Gene Machine

Robert1950 said:


> That model is on par with the Gibson Historics, generally speaking. One piece Honduras mahogany body, etc. There are those who say it out performs the Historics, and those who will say not.


I remember playing a goldtop one in my youth (25 years ago?) and it was awesome. I had a buddy that bought one and it was stellar. I've played the fake ones too, and they were nice. Almost bought a Fakai sunburst myself (thought it was Tokai at the time...)


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## LexxM3

Alex Csank said:


> I would love to find a nice 'Fakai' someday actually.


You really don't have to wait. Normally *almost* all (but definitely *not all*) "Tokai" on Kijiji in SW Ontario is a fake of some form. Many are the Canadian "Fakai", others are just really silly China fakes of Tokai (why someone fakes a copy is a separate issue, justifiability of the Canadian "Fakai" reasoning non-withstanding).

For example, here are today's Canadian Fakai from a Kijiji search within 150km of KW (where I reside):

[Almost certainly a Canadian Fakai]: http://kitchener.kijiji.ca/c-buy-an...d-Green-Tokai-PRS-copy-kit-W0QQAdIdZ343891591
[Canadian Fakai, no question] http://kitchener.kijiji.ca/c-buy-an...-SET-NECK-with-Inlays-NICE-W0QQAdIdZ341836912
[Canadian Fakai, no question] http://kitchener.kijiji.ca/c-buy-an...Les-Paul-Electric-Set-Neck-W0QQAdIdZ341822726
[Canadian Fakai, no question] http://kitchener.kijiji.ca/c-buy-an...ments-guitars-Tokai-Guitar-W0QQAdIdZ337937757
[Canadian Fakai, no question] http://kitchener.kijiji.ca/c-buy-an...-III-15-watt-combo-500-obo-W0QQAdIdZ334771998

Most "Korean Tokai" over the last 3 years that I've paid attention on Kijiji in Ontario and nearly all "Tokai" I've seen at stores around SW Ontario in that timeframe have been the Canadian Fakai. They're the rule around here, not the exception. You have plenty of choice, they are good guitars. But I would skip the China fakes.


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## cheezyridr

the last one has a serial #. i thought fakais don't have them? 
also, i have a question - 
gtr at the top of your list is $1000. the next one is $450. i don't see the difference that makes up $550

i find it kind of annoying that grown people don't know the difference between _accepted_ and _excepted_.


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## smorgdonkey

cheezyridr said:


> the last one has a serial #. i thought fakais don't have them?


That is my understanding as well - and a few of them have that same marking on the back of the headstock (same as the Korean PRS)


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## Alex Csank

LexxM3 said:


> You really don't have to wait. Normally *almost* all (but definitely *not all*) "Tokai" on Kijiji in SW Ontario is a fake of some form. Many are the Canadian "Fakai", others are just really silly China fakes of Tokai (why someone fakes a copy is a separate issue, justifiability of the Canadian "Fakai" reasoning non-withstanding).
> 
> For example, here are today's Canadian Fakai from a Kijiji search within 150km of KW (where I reside):
> 
> [Almost certainly a Canadian Fakai]: http://kitchener.kijiji.ca/c-buy-an...d-Green-Tokai-PRS-copy-kit-W0QQAdIdZ343891591
> [Canadian Fakai, no question] http://kitchener.kijiji.ca/c-buy-an...-SET-NECK-with-Inlays-NICE-W0QQAdIdZ341836912
> [Canadian Fakai, no question] http://kitchener.kijiji.ca/c-buy-an...Les-Paul-Electric-Set-Neck-W0QQAdIdZ341822726
> [Canadian Fakai, no question] http://kitchener.kijiji.ca/c-buy-an...ments-guitars-Tokai-Guitar-W0QQAdIdZ337937757
> [Canadian Fakai, no question] http://kitchener.kijiji.ca/c-buy-an...-III-15-watt-combo-500-obo-W0QQAdIdZ334771998
> 
> Most "Korean Tokai" over the last 3 years that I've paid attention on Kijiji in Ontario and nearly all "Tokai" I've seen at stores around SW Ontario in that timeframe have been the Canadian Fakai. They're the rule around here, not the exception. You have plenty of choice, they are good guitars. But I would skip the China fakes.


I know there are ALL kinds of "Fakais" out there. What I actually meant was that I would love to get one of the older Canadian "Love-Rock" models which have developed a pretty good reputation as 'quality' guitars. I am not currently engaged in any active search as my 'guitar and gear budget is still recovering from the holidays (and I'm running out of space too!). I am completely uninterested in any of the others.

Nevertheless, thanks for your suggestions.


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## LexxM3

There is lots of misinformation and confusion in this thread, related threads, and in general about these Canadian Fakai -- I advance that frustrating contribution to this confusion is what's really getting people upset with the Canadian Fakai story, not the guitar quality. Non-fake Tokai are already hard to date and identify properly for several reasons (Tokai labeling inconsistency over the years, lawsuits that caused subtle design changes and inconsistent supply in North America due to the lawsuits, Tokai's approach of assigning model number after that year's yen price rather than guitar features, etc.) this just doubled the confusion for short term profitability.

Anyway, Canadian Fakai do have serial numbers in white impressed ink on the headstock. But by far the simplest way to identify a Canadian Fakai from other fakes and genuine Tokai is the misspelled "Make in Korea" in impressed white ink on the back of the headstock (and other words, but just look for that label). That results in two lines of text on the back of the headstock, so you can often see this much text even in bad angle photos. There are quite a few other telltales, but with such an obvious one, there is really no need to get into more subtle ways to identify Canadian Fakai from other Tokai fakes and genuine Tokai.

Regarding the variety in prices, that's for each individual to consider and negotiate, I won't vouch for anyone else's virtues of common sense, realism, honesty, or business savvy.


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## Robert1950

This is the back of a Cdn Fakai. It is just like mine, except my serial # is 03****. The 'Ma*k*e in Korea' is what nails it.


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## Alex Csank

Robert1950 said:


> This is the back of a Cdn Fakai. It is just like mine, except my serial # is 03****. The 'Ma*k*e in Korea' is what nails it.


The pic link isn't working for me.


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## LexxM3

Robert1950 said:


> This is the back of a Cdn Fakai. It is just like mine, except my serial # is 03****. The 'Ma*k*e in Korea' is what nails it.


Yap, that is it exactly. The photo URL link is http://media.photobucket.com/image/fakai back of headstock/faldhimself/DSC00041.jpg. Also to note, the two leading digits indicate datecode of these Canadian Fakai and are always 02, 03, 04, or 05 (i.e. 2002-2005); I am not 100% on 02 (i.e. 2002), but definitely 03-05 range. That's another indication of quality of these fakes -- the faker made the effort to even properly date/serialize them; that's more than you can say about genuine Tokai over their history .

Ugh, I gotta mention two variations here as well. There is also a DLX-2004 and the MM2001 models, both Canadian market oriented and both made in Korea, but it's not clear to me whether these two variations are really Canadia Fakai per above. Both of these are perhaps even better than the "standard" Canadian Fakai. The MM2001 doesn't say "Make in Korea" and does have a single serial number. Not sure about the DLX-2004 either, never seen one live. Anyways, what a mess.


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## Mutron

So to clarify, what version of Fakai would this be? No "make in Korea" printing...

http://s1122.photobucket.com/albums/l527/mutron77/?action=view&current=IMG_0799.jpg


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## LexxM3

Mutron said:


> So to clarify, what version of Fakai would this be? No "make in Korea" printing... http://s1122.photobucket.com/albums/l527/mutron77/?action=view&current=IMG_0799.jpg


 So, you're trying to get back on topic, are you?  This one is a little harder, but looking at this and your original post photos:

back of headstock doesn't look like a Canadian Fakai from 2005 (no "Make in Korea", etc.)
the "MADE IN KOREAN" label is a transparent stick on -- never seen that on a genuine Korean Tokai (usually black imprinted lettering on the same location of the headstock)
the Tokai font on the front of the headstock doesn't look genuine Tokai (the telltale is the shape of the O) and it seem to me identical to Canadian Fakai
the TRC is Canadian Fakai standard
I believe the white/cream switch and pot covers on the back indicate MIC Tokai
for that matter, the back of the headstock and serial number look like MIC Tokai
I think I am at my knowledge limits, but it doesn't look right for a genuine Korean made Tokai (which are very rare as it is). If I had to guess, I think it's a China made Tokai that has been messed with to make it seem "more Korean". I don't think it's a Canadian Fakai. It may well be a great guitar regardless, however.


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## Mutron

Hmm, the confusion continues. I was under the impression that the "Make in Korea" printed ones were from the first batch and then after that they just put the serial number on. I thought the white/cream covers were also standard MIK Fakai. The MIC serial numbers usually start with CNxxxxx don't they?
Whoever made it, it is a great guitar. Not sure why anybody would try and fake a fakai, that's insane! This thing was barely touched when i bought it, plastic was still on the pick guard and no mods as far as i can tell were done.


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## LexxM3

Mutron said:


> Hmm, the confusion continues. I was under the impression that the "Make in Korea" printed ones were from the first batch and then after that they just put the serial number on. I thought the white/cream covers were also standard MIK Fakai. The MIC serial numbers usually start with CNxxxxx don't they?
> Whoever made it, it is a great guitar. Not sure why anybody would try and fake a fakai, that's insane! This thing was barely touched when i bought it, plastic was still on the pick guard and no mods as far as i can tell were done.


 :-((( Yes, you may well be correct. That's the real issue here, mass confusion, not quality. So I guess this supports the concept that the confusion undermines (or reinforces?) collector value and buy/sell/trade capability, but for an actual guitar player, every single guitar is unique and it's branding/lack of it is irrelevant.


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## Mutron

"but for an actual guitar player, every single guitar is unique and it's branding/lack of it is irrelevant."
Exactly! It could be made in Somalia and say "cheeseturd" on the headstock but if its well made and plays good for me then that's all that matters!


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## Alex Csank

Mutron said:


> "but for an actual guitar player, every single guitar is unique and it's branding/lack of it is irrelevant."
> Exactly! It could be made in Somalia and say "cheeseturd" on the headstock but if its well made and plays good for me then that's all that matters!


I have a really nice Somali "Cheeseturd"! It's much better than those cheap, poor quality fake Sri Lankan "Cheeseturds"!


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## cheezyridr

got plenty of authentic american made-in canada cheezturds, if they're of interest to those with cash....
local p/u only, of course


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## Alex Csank

Sorry, I never travel to scary hoods like Scarberia!


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## LexxM3

cheezyridr said:


> got plenty of authentic american made-in canada cheezturds, if they're of interest to those with cash....
> local p/u only, of course


Is that the business that the "cheez" part of your handle refers to? Hm, I just don't understand where turd-riding fits in ... or even what that activity might be .


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## smorgdonkey

So, Lexx...how have you compiled the info that you know of the Canadian Fakai guitars? Many of the things that you are stating are opposite of what I have believed to be true. 

#1 that the ones in question, supposedly ordered by a guy who wanted to sell Tokai guitars, have no serial number. 

Anyway, I'm no expert but I was told that mine was one of the Canadian Fakai guitars by people on the Tokai forum and that was issue #1 with them as it related to the photos and such that I posted there, so I was wondering where you got your info.

To me, the info on that headstock stamp looks like the ones from legitimate production runs.


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## Robert1950

Mutron said:


> So to clarify, what version of Fakai would this be? No "make in Korea" printing...
> 
> http://s1122.photobucket.com/albums/l527/mutron77/?action=view&current=IMG_0799.jpg


Oh, never mind. I'm tired and will answer this in detail tomorrow. Short answer - it is still a Fakai.


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## GuitarsCanada

Lets get the definitive details listed on this thread for generations to come


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## LexxM3

smorgdonkey said:


> So, Lexx...how have you compiled the info that you know of the Canadian Fakai guitars? Many of the things that you are stating are opposite of what I have believed to be true.
> #1 that the ones in question, supposedly ordered by a guy who wanted to sell Tokai guitars, have no serial number.
> Anyway, I'm no expert but I was told that mine was one of the Canadian Fakai guitars by people on the Tokai forum and that was issue #1 with them as it related to the photos and such that I posted there, so I was wondering where you got your info.
> To me, the info on that headstock stamp looks like the ones from legitimate production runs.


I'd like to see Robert1950's comments (tomorrow, I guess) first, before I try to answer in any detail, but suffice it to say for now that while I am speaking from multiple observations and my best knowledge, I am by no means authoritative. Frankly, only Tokai themselves could be authoritative and then only on what is and isn't genuine Tokai, not the various flavours of fakes and other unauthorized reproductions with their name on it, and I haven't asked them (they apparently do respond). Each class of fakes/reproductions could only be authoritatively identified by the parties that caused them to come into existence, and past history is not favourable to get any clarity from that directions.

I'll also suggest to be careful with TokaiForum; it's owner has repeatedly acted irrationally. Regardless any other Tokai (or not) opinions expressed, repeated mass and selective deletions are really intollerable on a public forum. Those actions caused a lot of real experts to leave and while many member who are left are more experienced than I, most are not as precise or experienced as past members that would no longer be caught dead anywhere around TokaiForum.

Anyways, looking forward to Robert1950's comments ...


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## smorgdonkey

LexxM3 said:


> Those actions caused a lot of real experts to leave and while many member who are left are more experienced than I, most are not as precise or experienced as past members that would no longer be caught dead anywhere around TokaiForum.


For claification: my questions there were 3 and a half years ago.


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## JeremyP

They are great guitars, I had one and sold it off trying to pay for some new gear. Now kind of wishing I didn't. I did have a neck issue with it but it was my fault (whacked it off my mic stand pretty hard) but performance wise it was great. It had tons of sustain right up there with an LP. I think like most of the overseas stuff it seems to be hit and miss. Sometimes you get a gem and sometimes a turd lol. I have an Ibanez art600 that I wouldn't trade for the world, weighs about the same as an anchor but after I switched out the crappy factory active electonics it rocks. Go with your gut and how it feels. who cares what the git snobs say lol


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## sneakypete

Unless the info on MIJ guitars comes directly from the people who are actually involved in building them, it`s all just stuff on the web to me. Tons of opinions and conjecture on the inter net...very little if any, at least that I`ve found, from the companies who make them. Fun to read, but I don`t lose sleep over any of it, I buy em to play em though I must say I haven`t been playing much lately, been painting and drawing much more than playing.


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## Robert1950

Okay. The guitar with the serial 05**** on the back of the headstock and a simple Made in Korea stickier. Tokai never numbered their MIK guitars like that. IIRC, it started with a letter. However the number 05**** is consistent with Fakai serial numbers, starting with the year, 03, 04 or 05, even though there was not all that "Under License from... Make in Korea" stuff emblazoned in white on the back. If you go through his other photos and look at the truss rod cover, it has one screw which is consistent with the Fakai. MIK Tokais have three screws. Also, there was someone on this forum who posted one with an 05**** serial number. His research claimed it was a Fakai.

So, it is very likely that was one of the later Fakais built during 2005, the last year they were made.


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## LexxM3

So I concur that this is probably a fake of a Tokai. But considering that there are definitely fake Tokai that are not of the Canadian Fakai variety and those other fake Tokai are not of consistently good quality compared to either genuine Tokai or Canadian Fakai, I propose that we start being a bit more precise about our naming conventions. That is, rather than paint all fake Tokai with same brush, why don't we try to consistently sub-classify the fakes.

In that context, I question what manufacturing events would have occurred for there to exist 2 variations of 2005 Canadian Fakai, and no 2006 Canadian Fakai? Isn't it more likely that these are actually two different varieties of fakes? I know there is no certainty here by any stretch of the imagination, but I am hoping to apply a little logic to this chaos.


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## smorgdonkey

When I put the questions about mine up at the Tokai Forum with the #1 being about no serial number and posted photos, the people there told me of:
*
There was a Canadian importer that couldn't get the models he wanted from Tokai so he commissioned another Korean factory to make fake versions of Tokai guitars 

*They went on to say that the headstock was a dead giveaway that it was from Canada.

So, in essence, that is what I base my belief that this is a 'Canadian Fakai' on. I am sure that there are any number of fakes out there and there was a 'specific' run of guitars that have become known as 'Canadian Fakai' but I don't know about the other runs. 

As I said, it seemed to me to be people who definitely knew what they were talking about who told me what mine was and #1 it is a Fake #2 it was from Canada so to me, they could tell right away and therefor Canadian Fakai. If someone has evidence otherwise, that the guitars that are supposed to be known as Canadian Fakai have serial numbers then so be it but that is not what I have heard 3 and a half years ago nor since until this thread. 

Regardless, anyone who has a 'Tokai' that isn't a real 'Tokai' has a fake. I know how to judge the quality of a guitar after being around them for between 25 and 30 years so I really don't care whether this one is from an identifiable run or not - it would be cool to have clarification though because it seems that the story gets bigger as time goes on and people add to it, etc.

One thing that I did recognize is that a PRS SE that I had, had the same 'droplet' under the clearcoat on the headstock in almost the same place as my 'Tokai' which looks like perhaps lacquer thinner was splashed on it and it wasn't wiped off then the clear was applied.


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## Alex Csank

Thought: There have been at least two variants of copies of Tokais - which are themselves copies of other guitars, and it is possible that there have even been copies of the original fake Tokais. I would really enjoy building a Canadian replica of the Chinese copy of the Fakai Korean copy of the Japanese Tokai copy of the American Lester style guitar!
:banana:


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## LexxM3

Alex Csank said:


> Thought: There have been at least two variants of copies of Tokais - which are themselves copies of other guitars, and it is possible that there have even been copies of the original fake Tokais. I would really enjoy building a Canadian replica of the Chinese copy of the Fakai Korean copy of the Japanese Tokai copy of the American Lester style guitar!
> :banana:


I know you're making a joke, but one thing really bugs me in these kinds of discussions and that's the occasional lack of distinction between *FAKE* and *COPY* (or, an even better term, *REPLICA*). Most models of genuine Tokai are high quality *COPIES/REPLICAS* of specific models/years of other manufacturers guitars. Genuine Tokai didn't pretend to be Gibson, never marketted or branded as a Gibson, for example. *FAKE* Tokai pretend to be Tokai. This is a huge difference.

More to your point, yes, faking a copy is stupid. Multiple variations of fakes of a copy is ever dumber. But here we have it.


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## LexxM3

smorgdonkey said:


> When I put the questions about mine up at the Tokai Forum with the #1 being about no serial number and posted photos ...


I think I am confused. I thought were were discussing the 05**** numbered guitar by Mutron i.e. here http://s1122.photobucket.com/albums/l527/mutron77/. I somehow missed that smorgdonkey appears to be talking about another guitar and I am not sure of his guitar details. Perhaps, smorgdonkey, you can point us to your guitar background.



smorgdonkey said:


> *There was a Canadian importer that couldn't get the models he wanted from Tokai so he commissioned another Korean factory to make fake versions of Tokai guitars.*


This part of the story appears to be consistent, with a slight uncertainty that it was "another Korean factory". It may well have been the same Korean factory that was making the genuine Tokai at the time.

*The perpetrator of this Canadian Fakai creation event is apparently based in Stoney Creek, Ontario and is still operating other guitar manufacturing operations there. I bet he is reading all these posts. I call on him to come clean with an official, precise, and detailed story with enough background to be informative in identifying these guitars accurately. Enough time has passed that I can't expect there to be negative financial impact to his operations and I would assert that his credibility would skyrocket as a result -- he did, afterall, generate great spec, even if unauthorized/fake, guitars.*



smorgdonkey said:


> As I said, it seemed to me to be people who definitely knew what they were talking about who told me what mine was and #1 it is a Fake #2 it was from Canada so to me, they could tell right away and therefor Canadian Fakai. If someone has evidence otherwise, that the guitars that are supposed to be known as Canadian Fakai have serial numbers then so be it but that is not what I have heard 3 and a half years ago nor since until this thread.


I agree that TokaiForum 3 years ago had some very substantial expertise. Is there any chance that you can link to those discussions on TokaiForum as background? Are those posts still there or were they wiped in the great TokaiForum purges?


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## Alex Csank

LexxM3 said:


> I know you're making a joke, but one thing really bugs me in these kinds of discussions and that's the occasional lack of distinction between *FAKE* and *COPY* (or, an even better term, *REPLICA*). Most models of genuine Tokai are high quality *COPIES/REPLICAS* of specific models/years of other manufacturers guitars. Genuine Tokai didn't pretend to be Gibson, never marketted or branded as a Gibson, for example. *FAKE* Tokai pretend to be Tokai. This is a huge difference.
> 
> More to your point, yes, faking a copy is stupid. Multiple variations of fakes of a copy is ever dumber. But here we have it.


OK, let me rewrite that statement I made: I would really enjoy building a Canadian 'replica' of the Korean 'fake' of the Canadian-contracted Korean 'fake' (Fakai) of the Japanese Tokai copy of the American Lester style guitar! Is that better?


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## GuitarsCanada

Alex Csank said:


> OK, let me rewrite that statement I made: I would really enjoy building a Canadian 'replica' of the Korean 'fake' of the Canadian-contracted Korean 'fake' (Fakai) of the Japanese Tokai copy of the American Lester style guitar! Is that better?


That cleared it up for me...


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## Alex Csank

Alex Csank said:


> OK, let me rewrite that statement I made: I would really enjoy building a Canadian 'replica' of the Korean 'fake' of the Canadian-contracted Korean 'fake' (Fakai) of the Japanese Tokai copy of the American Lester style guitar! Is that better?


Hmmm, maybe I'll buy the parts from Gibson.


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## smorgdonkey

LexxM3 said:


> *The perpetrator of this Canadian Fakai creation event is apparently based in Stoney Creek, Ontario and is still operating other guitar manufacturing operations there. I bet he is reading all these posts. I call on him to come clean with an official, precise, and detailed story with enough background to be informative in identifying these guitars accurately. Enough time has passed that I can't expect there to be negative financial impact to his operations and I would assert that his credibility would skyrocket as a result -- he did, afterall, generate great spec, even if unauthorized/fake, guitars.*


I think that would be cool.


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## smorgdonkey

LexxM3 said:


> Most models of genuine Tokai are high quality *COPIES/REPLICAS* of specific models/years of other manufacturers guitars. Genuine Tokai didn't pretend to be Gibson, never marketted or branded as a Gibson, for example.


 *The plot thickens...from the net when researching a Bradley that I once had:*


According to an interview with vintage guitar magazine Ted McCarty the old CEO of Gibson took some comments made by Fenders Representatives about the folks at Gibson being "old fuddie duddies" rather personal and then ordered the the designers at Gibson to come up with some exotic designs such as the flying V, the explorer, and the Moderne. All of these guitars appeared on the scene in 1958.However as any reasonable person knows the design of new guitars in a company such as Gibson takes about 2 to 3 years from the drawing board to the manufacturing process. So I then began to research executive trade journals on Ted McCarty, who after all was a corporate executive and not a musician.I found an interview in a trade magazine called "Executive Decision" published in 1955. In which McCarty lamented how the retooling costs for Gibson's exotic line was so cost prohibitive that Gibson farmed the whole manufacturing process out to Tokia in Japan. This was a common process for US companies at the time.Tokia while manufacturing the Gibson exotic line began to manufacture "house guitars" under the name of "Bradley" that they inported through a licensing agreement with mitsubishi, from 1959 through 1963.The Gibson Moderne disappeared almost immediately and the explorer fared almost as well. Gibson turned somewhat of a blind eye to what Tokia was doing until Tokia began to import a house version of the flying V at which point Gibson sued and the relationship desolved.In 1976 Gibson reissued both the Moderne and the Explorer, since modern re-tooling had made it less cost effective.At any rate the Bradley's were made with all of the same components and specifications as the Gibson's with the only difference being the Headstock....And Gibson did indeed contrary to all of their claims otherwise import foreign made guitars for a few short years.

*Now this was posted by another person who was researching for themselves...I assume that by 'Tokia' he means Tokai.*


​


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## smorgdonkey

LexxM3 said:


> Perhaps, smorgdonkey, you can point us to your guitar background.
> 
> I agree that TokaiForum 3 years ago had some very substantial expertise. Is there any chance that you can link to those discussions on TokaiForum as background? Are those posts still there or were they wiped in the great TokaiForum purges?


As to the differences between my guitar and the others, well, it is not an issue really...aside from the guys telling me that 'Canadian Fakai' the headstock was a giveaway for Canadian origin and the definite insinuation that the lack of serial number also corroborated that - here is a link to the thread:
​http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=11240&highlight=

​


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## sneakypete

smorgdonkey said:


> *The plot thickens...from the net when researching a Bradley that I once had:*
> 
> 
> According to an interview with vintage guitar magazine Ted McCarty the old CEO of Gibson took some comments made by Fenders Representatives about the folks at Gibson being "old fuddie duddies" rather personal and then ordered the the designers at Gibson to come up with some exotic designs such as the flying V, the explorer, and the Moderne. All of these guitars appeared on the scene in 1958.However as any reasonable person knows the design of new guitars in a company such as Gibson takes about 2 to 3 years from the drawing board to the manufacturing process. So I then began to research executive trade journals on Ted McCarty, who after all was a corporate executive and not a musician.I found an interview in a trade magazine called "Executive Decision" published in 1955. In which McCarty lamented how the retooling costs for Gibson's exotic line was so cost prohibitive that Gibson farmed the whole manufacturing process out to Tokia in Japan. This was a common process for US companies at the time.Tokia while manufacturing the Gibson exotic line began to manufacture "house guitars" under the name of "Bradley" that they inported through a licensing agreement with mitsubishi, from 1959 through 1963.The Gibson Moderne disappeared almost immediately and the explorer fared almost as well. Gibson turned somewhat of a blind eye to what Tokia was doing until Tokia began to import a house version of the flying V at which point Gibson sued and the relationship desolved.In 1976 Gibson reissued both the Moderne and the Explorer, since modern re-tooling had made it less cost effective.At any rate the Bradley's were made with all of the same components and specifications as the Gibson's with the only difference being the Headstock....And Gibson did indeed contrary to all of their claims otherwise import foreign made guitars for a few short years.
> 
> *Now this was posted by another person who was researching for themselves...I assume that by 'Tokia' he means Tokai.*
> 
> 
> ​



...and by desolved I assume he meant dissolved. And yeah, it would be nice if the honorable gentleman from Stoney Creek would come clean but this is the internet fellas...how could we possibly know it`s him writing and not some pimple faced kid who is supposed to be doing his homework? There are already enough people posting their observations as fact and even more people evidently believing everything they read on the web. Maybe my views have been distorted by being in Japan for so long where BS is a national pass time but confidentially, I`m at the point where I don`t believe anything I read on line anymore. Even what I just wrote.


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## smorgdonkey

sneakypete said:


> ...and by desolved I assume he meant dissolved. And yeah, it would be nice if the honorable gentleman from Stoney Creek would come clean but this is the internet fellas...how could we possibly know it`s him writing and not some pimple faced kid who is supposed to be doing his homework? There are already enough people posting their observations as fact and even more people evidently believing everything they read on the web. Maybe my views have been distorted by being in Japan for so long where BS is a national pass time but confidentially, I`m at the point where I don`t believe anything I read on line anymore. Even what I just wrote.


I don't even believe that there is a person in Japan who just posted.

Skeptical me!!


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## sneakypete

I don`t blame ya.


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## LexxM3

smorgdonkey said:


> As to the differences between my guitar and the others, well, it is not an issue really...aside from the guys telling me that 'Canadian Fakai' the headstock was a giveaway for Canadian origin and the definite insinuation that the lack of serial number also corroborated that - here is a link to the thread: http://www.tokaiforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=11240&highlight=​


Well, I don't know what to say. Ozeshin and Mick @ TokaiForum were definitely the pros, I definitely don't have more experience than they do. The only thought I can offer is that this whole faking of Tokai situation pissed off a lot of people and there really was never much desire to sub-classify the fakes, causing all fakes to be lumped together and mixed up. But it does seem likely that we are discussing 3 fake Tokai varieties in this thread, not just one. I am out of ideas ...

... except, if I was thinking like the Stoney Creek fellow, I'd talk down and buy up all of my well-spec'd guitars that I could find, then come out with a full explanantion and some kind of proof of my authenticity, and then cleanup (again) as identification becomes reliable and demand explodes ... hm.​


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## sneakypete

Well, you`re in Ontario...go ask him.


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## Buzz

So I found a Fakai Love Rock at a pawn store today. It was a later 05 serial number with the one screw truss rod cover. I rocked it out in the store! It had a really nice flame maple top ( I think lemon drop color) with a mahogany body. The action needed to be higher but it played ok. The neck was beefy and round. They wanted $1000 bucks but he said he would go for $800. I dunno but that seems a bit much. Whats the value for these things?


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## LexxM3

Buzz said:


> So I found a Fakai Love Rock at a pawn store today. It was a later 05 serial number with the one screw truss rod cover. I rocked it out in the store! It had a really nice flame maple top ( I think lemon drop color) with a mahogany body. The action needed to be higher but it played ok. The neck was beefy and round. They wanted $1000 bucks but he said he would go for $800. I dunno but that seems a bit much. Whats the value for these things?


Definitely way way way below $800. Early 2000s mid-range MIJ Love Rock is around $800-900 CAD if in good shape and likely with a genuine Tokai case. A Canadian Fakai in great condition should go for a max of around $350, but really likely closer to $300 range (a bit more with hard case).


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## Robert1950

LexxM3 said:


> Definitely way way way below $800. Early 2000s mid-range MIJ Love Rock is around $800-900 CAD if in good shape and likely with a genuine Tokai case. A Canadian Fakai in great condition should go for a max of around $350, but really likely closer to $300 range (a bit more with hard case).


I assume you mean stock. These are surprising good guitars, especially with a set of Rio Grande pickups.


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## LexxM3

Robert1950 said:


> I assume you mean stock. These are surprising good guitars, especially with a set of Rio Grande pickups.


Yes, I mean stock. And I agree that they are great guitars and certainly upgrades can push up the price if they are desirable for the buyer.


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## Mutron

I got mine for $400 including a setup and 1yr warranty, it was used but never even touched - plastic was still on the pickguard and seems like a totally fair price. Me and some guitar shop nerds AB'd it with a Gibson custom shop historic to see how it stood up, obviously the gibby had way more expensive components/wood but the Tokai totally held its own playabilty and "mojo" wise. The pick ups were the weak spot and the Gibson P90s were brighter and louder. Against a gibby Studio 50's tribute the Tokai won hands down.


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## smorgdonkey

Blue Tokai the 335 Gibson replica - Kitchener / Waterloo Musical Instruments For Sale - Kijiji Kitchener / Waterloo Canada.


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## Robert1950

smorgdonkey said:


> Blue Tokai the 335 Gibson replica - Kitchener / Waterloo Musical Instruments For Sale - Kijiji Kitchener / Waterloo Canada.


Need to see more, but the three screw truss rod cover says it is not a Fakai. They had* one screw*, unless the last few in the 2005 run used a three screw.


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## LexxM3

smorgdonkey said:


> Blue Tokai the 335 Gibson replica - Kitchener / Waterloo Musical Instruments For Sale - Kijiji Kitchener / Waterloo Canada.


There isn't a clear consensus on that one: it's either a fake Tokai (maybe even another type of a Canadian Fakai) or it's a specific market (UK) MIC Tokai (references to discussions below) -- either way, it's not worth anything approaching $700 asking price, that's a joke -- best case was $300 new. I am inclined to think it's a fake -- I played one very much like it in a TO pawn shop last year and I thought it was crap.

- Tokai Forum - a subsidiary of TokaiRegistry.com :: View topic - Anyone help me identify this model? [somewhat confusing discussion]

- Tokai Forum - a subsidiary of TokaiRegistry.com :: View topic - New Tokai 335 copy, please help! [long and confusing discussion, note: see in particular comments by topgs aka Tokai Germany]

Proper Tokai 335 copies look along these lines: Tokai Forum - a subsidiary of TokaiRegistry.com :: View topic - Don't know model of my tokai, can anyone help?.

But who knows ... this is such a mess. It caused me to only ever consider carefully verified MIJ Tokai.


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## smorgdonkey

I don't know Lexx...you can go back to our conversation on page 7. I'm not saying that I know, but the guys who told me that it was a Fakai are the ones who you knew to be experts were they not?

Anyway, the blue one in the ad looks identical to mine aside from colour.


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## smorgdonkey

So...anyway...I had long planned to change the headstock on this and I had a few ideas. One of the ideas really jumped out at me so I went with it...
Original:









I have a squillion projects that are house-related so the guitar-related projects often get pushed to the back. This was a long time coming to fruition. 
I would never put a normal Gibson logo on a non-Gibson guitar...that just isn't me. Anyway, I sanded the headstock down until the gloss was off of it and I sprayed it black. After applying a Gibson label face down, I hit it with clear. It turned out better than I had expected. I also took this opportunity to use one of StewMac's pre-slotted bone nuts.


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## Robert1950

*This ....*


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## The Lullaby

Mij and Mik Tokai products 
(is there Chinese Tokais?)
are both collectively "fakes" so one is no more real than the other.

Very nice guitars for the money though.

Use whatever gear you have to do something original,or slightly original or at least entertaining.

A good pal (who is an "musical electrician to the stars") 
plays a Mik Loverock Paul and it is a wonderful guitars.
The wood grain looks great under the paint and it plays well, sure is a heavy one though.
He swears by it,so,his boat is floating and he has a decent axe to Rock on.

Not the original or even the fake original or even a fake-fake original but it works pretty darn good.


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## sulphur

Awesome job on that headstock smorgdonkey!


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## LexxM3

The Lullaby said:


> Mij and Mik Tokai products
> (is there Chinese Tokais?)
> are both collectively "fakes" so one is no more real than the other.


I feel very strongly that this is a completely careless interpretation of reality. Genuine Tokai models that are modelled after other makers guitars are *not fakes*, they are *copies*. *Fakes* are those that pretend to be something else. Tokai never tried to deceive anyone that they made Gibsons. *Fakes* and *counterfits* (and not just guitars) deceive you by pretending to be genuine products of other entities. *Copy* vs. *fake/counterfit* is a critical distinction.

This thread is about *fakes/counterfit* Tokai, which are in turn, yes, *copies* of other maker's guitars (and very good copies). Tokai did nothing wrong (arguably, depending on your view of intellectual property such as shapes of headstocks and fonts). Guitars not authorized by Tokai and are promoted as genuine Tokai are *fakes* and that's, frankly, wrong (if for no other reason as to cause us to argue about this kind of nonsense, but there are actually many other reasons).

And yes, there are genuine MIC Tokai.


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## The Lullaby

good point..."copy" make sense actually, many of those Tokai---Kokai--Chokai guitars are very nice.


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## The Lullaby

very nice copies and/or very nice fakes of the copies...or is that copies of the fakes?


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## smorgdonkey

Let's not fight...let's just look at the cool headstock!


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## sulphur

So you used a stensil to spray that logo through smorg?

Did you purchase the stensil, or make it?

That's too cool.


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## smorgdonkey

I ordered a waterslide from one of the many out there making them and just applied it *carefully* face-down.


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