# Les Paul: Kluson Deluxe or Grover?



## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

My Les Paul seems to be always out of tune after a song. Is the groovers update will fix that?
Thanks


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Ti-Ron said:


> My Les Paul seems to be always out of tune after a song. Is the groovers update will fix that?
> Thanks


I assume you are talking about Grover tuners? The Klusons are a good tuner. I would take a look at the nut first. Are you getting any string binding there


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## faracaster (Mar 9, 2006)

Ti-Ron said:


> My Les Paul seems to be always out of tune after a song. Is the groovers update will fix that?
> Thanks


It's not necessarily the tuners. Could be any one of a number of things. A trip to a good tech with the LP would be money well spent. 
New Klusons are good tuners, they should hold tune fine. If you go Grovers you get the bonus of having your tone change also. Which is something you may or may not want.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

Sealed or vintage style tuner?

It's probably the nut.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

You could try the 'graphite in the slots' thing, or actual nut lube (sounds funny!).

If you are handy, you could take a tiny file or some folded sandpaper and widen the nut slots ever so slightly...you don't want them deeper, just wider and only a tiny bit. I would look for some videos of nut slot adjustment or something along those lines.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I picked up a four pack of these abrasive cords, from Stewmac...

STEWMAC.COM : Mitchell Abrasive Cord

Any pinging while you're tuning is an indication of the string hanging up on the nut.
Nut sauce is supposed to help also, as stated already.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

faracaster said:


> If you go Grovers you get the bonus of having your tone change also. Which is something you may or may not want.


Pete, I own Gibsons w/ Klusons & Gibsons w/ Grovers. The ones w/ Grovers had already been modded when I acquired them, so I had no way of making a comparison. Would you be able to go into a little more detail? 

I've heard similar things said about small & large headstocks on Fenders, but chalked up those tonal differences to the higher output levels of early 60s vs late 60s pickups, nitro vs poly, body weight etc., never swapped a neck on a strat to A/B them.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Wow, that is a lot of good tips. I'll look for the nut problem. Thanks guyz, this why I love you all!


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

sulphur said:


> Any pinging while you're tuning is an indication of the string hanging up on the nut.


I have some on the G string. Always tought that was normal with the wound string.
Thanks for the tip


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

I've also heard that a nylon nut will prevent string binding. Always thought that bone was vintage-corect but apparently Gibson used nylon in the late 50s.


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## faracaster (Mar 9, 2006)

Roryfan said:


> Pete, I own Gibsons w/ Klusons & Gibsons w/ Grovers. The ones w/ Grovers had already been modded when I acquired them, so I had no way of making a comparison. Would you be able to go into a little more detail?
> 
> I've heard similar things said about small & large headstocks on Fenders, but chalked up those tonal differences to the higher output levels of early 60s vs late 60s pickups, nitro vs poly, body weight etc., never swapped a neck on a strat to A/B them.


I have had one very powerful example of the change and how it effects the tone. 
I had a (real) 61' SG/LP. it's original PAF's, tune-a-matic tailpiece .....Absolutely HUGE sounding guitar. Tons of output, dark-ish sounding but all the articulation you could want. It had Grovers and a later (heavier) Gibson tailpiece (as it was converted from a original sideways vibrato). I have owned this guitar three times.....it's absolutely killer. The PAFs sounded unlike typical 60-62 short magnet pickups. they sounded big and full like late 58's and 59's.
Last year I sold it to a pal that wanted to "restore" it. So he put Klusons on it and got a light weight vintage tailpiece. When I bought it back from him,, I was gob-smacked at how different it sounded.
That totally changed the tone and attack of the guitar. the PAF's now sound like 61's. brighter, articulate, quite pretty sounding. A great sounding guitar but, a different sounding guitar than it was. No longer a fire-breather. Now a cleaner but more defined version (probably more versatile).
That is one reason back in the late 60's and 70's people changed tuners. It was not because of holding tune, it was because of tone change. Some would change them back to Klusons after trying either Grovers or Schallers.

To each his own with this change, there is no better.

Pete


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## ElectricMojo (May 19, 2011)

Wow. 
Cool stuff faracaster!


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

Roryfan said:


> I've also heard that a nylon nut will prevent string binding. Always thought that bone was vintage-corect but apparently Gibson used nylon in the late 50s.


Nylon was used on a lot of the bursts. All the latest reissues are coming with nylon as well. 

Nylon is hard, consistent and self lubricating. Overall an excellent nut material. I have a bunch of blanks I'm going to use on my guitars.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Thanks Pete, very insightful. Am I correct in assuming that the increased mass of a larger CBS-style headstock would have the same effect on a strat?


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## weldaar (Feb 20, 2015)

*Pencil. I use the graphite from a pencil to lube the nut. Very inexpensive. Also I have both new Kluson Deluxe on my 59 and Grover Deluxe tuners on all of my other guitars. The stock Gibson tuners always slipped. I do not believe in locking tuners. If the strings are locked upon installation, they should never slip. Maybe stretch a tad, but not slip. Just my 2 cents.*


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I assume you are talking about Grover tuners? The Klusons are a good tuner. I would take a look at the nut first. Are you getting any string binding there


I would look there first as well. I have a LP with Kluson's and it stays remarkably well in tune


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Pete, do you think a good portion of that tonal change was the stop bar though?

My studio has the gibson/kluson tuners, and it goes out because i wail on it. If I'm gentle its not nearly as bad, but wheres the fun in that?

Edit: if this is your drop A# guitar, then make sure the nut is slotted correctly for the gauge.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Budda said:


> Pete, do you think a good portion of that tonal change was the stop bar though?


I was wondering about this as well but Budda beat me to it. I'll just look forward to the answer.


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

Ti-Ron said:


> I have some on the G string. Always tought that was normal with the wound string.
> Thanks for the tip


Unfortunately, this is very typical of Gibson guitars. My Memphis ES-335 Dot exhibits this _problem_ and so did my Gibson USA Les Paul Standard when I owned it. Always the G string. My Historic LP doesn't or at least not as much as I have not noticed.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i dunno why but every guitar i have ever owned with a conventional nut pings on the D & G strings. in my experience , tuning instability comes from the nut, or from the string slipping inside the post/winding tighter around the post, 99% of the time. the tuner never actually turns in reverse. that's why there are schallers on my strat, and soon an lsr nut. 
oh and while we're on the subject i don't believe in string stretch either. the string length does not actually increase when you "stretch" them.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Budda said:


> Edit: if this is your drop A# guitar, then make sure the nut is slotted correctly for the gauge.


Yep, it is, but back then (almost two years aho) my LP was tuned in standard.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

In addition to nut concerns already mentioned, equally important is to stretch your strings out. Even with a properly cut nut, a guitar won't hold tuning if the strings are not stretched out.

Tug a string (it goes flat), tune it to pitch, repeat until it no longer goes flat when tugged.

If you tug lightly, you will have to tug many times before it settles in. Tug too hard and you can break the string. A string may settle in after maybe 10 moderate tugs, just as a ballpark figure.

Even if the strings have been on the guitar for a while, stretching them will still improve stability.





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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

cheezyridr said:


> oh and while we're on the subject i don't believe in string stretch either. the string length does not actually increase when you "stretch" them.


Revisit that... it's real and necessary.

Tug a string and it goes flat, turn the tuning key to bring back to pitch... the length taken up by turning the key has to be coming from somewhere, right? It's coming from the string stretching, the coil on the tuning post tightening, loop at the ball end tightening, bend over saddle becoming more defined, so a variety of places.




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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

faracaster said:


> I have had one very powerful example of the change and how it effects the tone.
> I had a (real) 61' SG/LP. it's original PAF's, tune-a-matic tailpiece .....Absolutely HUGE sounding guitar. Tons of output, dark-ish sounding but all the articulation you could want. It had Grovers and a later (heavier) Gibson tailpiece (as it was converted from a original sideways vibrato). I have owned this guitar three times.....it's absolutely killer. The PAFs sounded unlike typical 60-62 short magnet pickups. they sounded big and full like late 58's and 59's.
> Last year I sold it to a pal that wanted to "restore" it. So he put Klusons on it and got a light weight vintage tailpiece. When I bought it back from him,, I was gob-smacked at how different it sounded.
> That totally changed the tone and attack of the guitar. the PAF's now sound like 61's. brighter, articulate, quite pretty sounding. A great sounding guitar but, a different sounding guitar than it was. No longer a fire-breather. Now a cleaner but more defined version (probably more versatile).
> ...


Very interesting.

To tell you the truth if I had heard this from someone with less experience and credibility I might have dismissed it as cork sniffing.

I've swapped tuners on lots of guitars and never really detected a major change in tone, but in fairness I never replaced Klusons with Grovers.

Usually it was vintage style Fenders (for which I have no use) replaced by, well almost any other tuner, but usually Schallers or Grovers.


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## TWRC (Apr 22, 2011)

I've never been one to swap out tuners, but I can see how this would work. I'm guessing this is related to mass; for example, I have noticed subtle sustain differences on my acoustics by placing my capos on the headstock.



Milkman said:


> Very interesting.
> 
> To tell you the truth if I had heard this from someone with less experience and credibility I might have dismissed it as cork sniffing.
> 
> ...


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I still think it was the bridge far more than the tuners, tbh.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

On reflection, almost every time I've changed tuners, I've also changed other components so yes there was a tonal impact but I suppose I just never associated much of that with tuners.

I guess I figured if I was swapping out a bridge and pickups plus tuners and the tone changed, it was most likely the pickups and bridge. The tuners I usually change for tuning stability.

I've never found Klusons to be a problem in terms of tuning and I love the look of them so.....


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

dradlin said:


> Revisit that... it's real and necessary.
> 
> Tug a string and it goes flat, turn the tuning key to bring back to pitch... the length taken up by turning the key has to be coming from somewhere, right? It's coming from the string stretching, the coil on the tuning post tightening, loop at the ball end tightening, bend over saddle becoming more defined, so a variety of places.
> 
> ...


agreed, it tightens around the post, and at the saddle end. however, _the actual wire of the string does not stretch and become longer and thus thinner_. if you can show me something scientific i'll believe it. but if it's some youtube video in some guys basement it's not real.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

cheezyridr said:


> agreed, it tightens around the post, and at the saddle end. however, _the actual wire of the string does not stretch and become longer and thus thinner_. if you can show me something scientific i'll believe it. but if it's some youtube video in some guys basement it's not real.


I agree with this. It is not possible in my my mind to stretch the string as you say, or somewhere, it has to thin. (Which would not be along its length, but in one spot, which I believe is called necking in destructive tests)

"Stretching" strings has to be nothing more than the coil wrap tightening, adjusting and finding its "home" as well as any slack being settled at the bridge/saddle

- - - Updated - - -



pattste said:


> Unfortunately, this is very typical of Gibson guitars. My Memphis ES-335 Dot exhibits this _problem_ and so did my Gibson USA Les Paul Standard when I owned it. Always the G string. My Historic LP doesn't or at least not as much as I have not noticed.


Thats what I have noticed...always the G

- - - Updated - - -



blam said:


> Nylon was used on a lot of the bursts. All the latest reissues are coming with nylon as well.
> 
> Nylon is hard, consistent and self lubricating. Overall an excellent nut material. I have a bunch of blanks I'm going to use on my guitars.


How does nylon compare to bone or tusq?


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Gentlemen, steel is elastic in its tensile properties. Once it is stretched beyond its elastic limit (a measurable property) it won't return to its original state. Beyond the elastic limit a thinning of the cross section will result. It is fundamental applied science of materials. Be assured, your strings do stretch.

Edited to add:

https://www.google.ca/search?q=elastic+limit&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en&client=safari


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

More for your reading pleasure...

http://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=AW&lc=eng&ckey=866703&id=866703

"It is possible for the guitar string to pass its elastic limit, much like pulling taffy. If the string doesn’t recover its original tension at rest, it has stretched and must be re-tuned. The musician wants the guitar string to act in its linear region so that when the tuning peg is turned the vibration frequency (tone) goes up or down proportionately. If the string is in its plastic region, as strings often are when they are new, then this relationship is nonlinear; in other words, Young's Modulus is no longer a constant. If a guitar with new strings is played vigorously, the strings will stretch past their linear range and the guitar will require re-tuning."


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