# My archtop journey... so far...



## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

The Loar LH-700 VS Deluxe I recently bought made me commit this... ;-)

The first instruments known as guitars were crafted in Europe for classical music by XVIIth century. C.F. Martin took cello as model to produce archtop guitars in America some two hundreds years later (XIXth century). The flat tops appeared later on.

From the early and now secular Gibson L-5 designed by Lloyd Loar, used by early jazzmen as well as reknowned country artist Maybelle Carter, through the modern electric versions, archtops now show many different models as different woods and bracings are used, with consequent sound modulations : Just think of that reknowned L-5 with longitudinal ladder bracing to modern archtops with X bracing like Eastman 805CE.

I came to the archtop world with my acoustic Godin 5th Avenue almost two years ago. it is my only laminate and left in the corner of the room as my minute practice instrument. As things go (blame it on my GAS !), I recently became interested in climbing the quality slope and got interested in solid woods, high end Loar LH-6xx (The Loar co.) and Eastman AR 6xx/8xx series that would be more budget friendly than more reknowned brands : these are made in China. So came on the market an unexpected Loar LH-700 VS Deluxe... and I grabbed it !

I have to say that looking for a 1 3/4" nut width greatly narrows my choice possibilities.

When I opened the box (after it was allowed to get to room temperature), I discovered inside The Loar semi-ridig gigbag a splendid sunburst archtop that appered clearly better than on the photos I had seen.

Unfortunately, as the brand is sadly reputated for, I did not have to look for finish flaws as they would catch my eyes when I seated in playing position : the body neck end under the fretboard and the inside edge of f hole suffer bad finish. I immediately though of my Godin that was declared "B stock" because of a little wood chip in a f hole, a thing that could have skipped my attention as it clearly happened at the shop before the finish was correctly applied. In fact, the "deluxe" is intended to qualify the use of AAA grade woods that differentiate the 700 from the 6xx series. But finding such flaws on the deluxe series casts serious doubts on the quality control process !

In addition, I sadly noticed that a curious construction mode already seen on pictures of many 6xx series model was also present on my new 700 : the neck has a joint at the junction with the body, while the overlying ebony fretboard is fortunately made of a unique piece.

The body dimensions are quite similar to the 5th Avenue but the Loar is clearly deeper. The Godin body is made of Canadian Wild Cherry (laminate?) while the Loar is made of solid AAA Maple back and sides and carved solid AAA Spruce top. The scales are identical.

The action was quite high, with a slight neck bow : I readily turned the knobs at bridge to lower the action a bit while nut adjustment is postponed to the moment I would change strings (as well as trus rod adjustment if still needed). I was pleased to see the bridge had much room to be lowered contrary to many other photos I had seen that testified of a reknowned bad neck angle insertion on some Loars in the past (I had asked the question to the prior owner). I will have to check the brige when I change strings : The Loar company site indicates it as ebony, but it seems doubtful to me as it does not show any wood grain : polymere ?
Add on : ebony bridge confirmed by fine wood grain and clearly not a polymere. 

Another thing to look at is the truss rod. I lift the cover to discover the Allen key included in the bag did not work : the short end does not engage while the long axis cannot reach the mandatory angle to get in the tunnel ! The Load website mention a compression truss rod : I will have to look at that with scrutiny ! This remerbers me of the Alvares AP66 that does not have a real truss rod though there is metal piece mimicking the tunnel entry to a truss rod under the neck inside the body !
Add on : The truss rod was seen midline when I lifted the nut to shave it ; the short limb of the key was too short; the one coming with Guild F-30 did the job easily. 

Finally, the tail piece is not perfectly centered so that the bridge is used to realign the strings more correctly. In fact, it is probably the neck that is not perfectly centered, but moving the tail piece a bit would realign the whole thing. Another flaw to be fixed when I change strings. By the way, this was correctly done at factory on the Godin !
Add on : Someone ése had try that before... quite easily fixed now.

After tuning, intonation is almost perfect at twelvth fret : Great !

It is my first encounter with a V neck : It is comfortable as well as the whole guitar on my right hip. I can play the scales up to octave without a cutaway : Great ! I must say the Loar offers the acoustic LH-600/700 with V neck and the electrified LH-650 with a C neck and a cutaway. No other choice, no hybrid !

At first try after unboxing, I found the sound dry compared to the rounder 5th Avenue sound. Said orherwise, Loar delivers briskiwr notes compared to Godin. Unfortunately the high action hampered my ability to fret the strings well. I will wisely postpone my opinion until a few weeks. These beasts really do not seem to sound like flat tops. I read that someone did not like the Loar LH-700 and preferred an Eastman 805 CE : he made it a bracing issue, ladder on Loar versus X bracing for the Eastman.

Now comes the big question : which strings will make the best compromise ? It seems clear that 0,013" string gauge put enough pressure on the bridge for better sound production. Loar company suggester D'Addario P/Br medium (EJ-17) while some forum members prefer Martins Retro Monel (MM13) for the sake of vintage sound, adding that Monel are less stiff. In fact, Martin sells three sets of 0,013-0,056, the difference lying in thinner mids on the MMLJ13 (Laurence Juber; apparently devoted to DADGAD tuning) and MMTR13 (Tony Rice, "bluegrass") versions. I would eventually try D'Addario flat tops (EFT-17 I lonce bought for my tricone) as well.
Add on : Did not have Martin Monel... dared try ernie ball Al/Br ! ))

I was practicing on Seagull Performer when I reminded (any reason why ?) I would record a compararive video of my archtops to stuff this topic. Here it is...






Ooops ! Action still too high for me on the Loar, sorry !
The last guitar played left me puzzled regarding the archtop topic... :-/
Guitars : Godin 5Th Avenue, Th Loar LH-700 VS Deluxe and... Seagull Performer...

Additional vidéos to stuff the topic :

Maybelle Carter’s «Wildwood Flower» with Gibson L-5 :









Gibson L-5 Montana acoustic "jazz" demo :


----------



## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

The Godin sounds much better than the Loar.


----------



## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

I bought a Gibson archtop with p90's in 1970. Disappointing. 

I found a 1939 Cromwell which was a licensed-by-Gibson L5 (?) copy. Had that restored. It sounded like a cardboard box to me. It sold quickly tho.

Tried a Godin 5th Ave in the store. Same thing -- sounded anemic like the Cromwell. Good with P90 tho. Nice price.

Archtop? Not for me, I guess... hmm... anyone have a vintage Stromberg I could try? Lol.


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Lots of effort in that review. Thanks!

Archtops seem so hit and miss to me.

I have an Epiphone Masterbilt Zenith which is okay when hammering out swing rhythm backup, but not very loud or complex sounding on single note lines. It was in my price range and available so I bought it. Frankly, I'm considering replacing the pickup with a K&K and a neck mounted humbucker if I ever put together the money...not a huge priority I guess.

The only other archtop I've had is a Gretsch Electromatic which was really good amplified but with a soundpost it didn't sound like anything acoustically. Sold it to a friend just to make him stop drooling over it in front of me...oh yeah, and I didn't play it much. I'd recommend it though, as long as it's plugged in.

(I'm not including the various Ibanez and Epiphone semi-hollows here, they're not the same thing to me.)

Many years ago, a friend and I went to Elderly (Lansing MI) and tried virtually every archtop they had. Price didn't seem to have much bearing on quality of tone and volume to my ears. I can't remember what all I played but if you know Elderly you can imagine. A Weber was the real standout. That thing would blow the gates off heaven and seduce choirs of angels...it would also empty my soul for payment. Regardless, I've rarely regretted as much not buying a guitar. Where's that freaking time machine when I need it?


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Mooh said:


> Many years ago, a friend and I went to Elderly (Lansing MI) and tried virtually every archtop they had. Price didn't seem to have much bearing on quality of tone and volume to my ears. I can't remember what all I played but if you know Elderly you can imagine. A Weber was the real standout. _That thing would blow the gates off heaven and seduce choirs of angels...it would also empty my soul for payment. _Regardless, I've rarely regretted as much not buying a guitar. _Where's that freaking time machine when I need it?_


Thanks for my (empathetic) laugh for the day.


----------



## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

I forgot about this one...

This is the only archtop I regret selling. Little budget job with a bolt-on neck. About 3" thick. $185 at a pawn shop in Thunder Bay. Perfect condition. Italian-made by Zerosette (accordians), and now displayed on the fetishguitars website (Italy). 

As I said before, I played this in a harmonica/guitar duo. Sold to Sled Dog in Winnipeg and re-sold from there to "Greg" at a modest profit. I would buy it back today.

The owner of Sled Dog said: "The whole city came in to see it." 

Best potentiometers I have ever owned.


----------



## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Did work the Loar this afternoon :
- Ebony bridge confirmed: could see fine wood grain and clearly not a polymere
- Lifted the nut to shave it a bit: Could see the truss rod under the middle of nut bed !!!
- The truss rod is working fine : the Allen key that was in the case had a too short short limb
***Note to myself : Use the Allen wrench devoted to the Guild F-30
- Adjusted the tail piece : Someone did try to work it just by pushing the strap button as tape on the peg showed; filled the screw holes with tooth pics and screwed besides these while enlarging peg hole and splinting the peg. This worked fine as mid strings are almost straight.
- Did not have the Martin Monel strings, and we (You and I !) were not satisfied with the sound :
"Well, let's do it !" Try ernie ball Al/Br ! 
Oh man ! What a nice afternoon in the operating room : Patient cured !


----------



## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

I have a Loar LH-300 that I use for big band rhythm playing. As far as I’m concerned, that’s its great strength. I’ve used it as a sing along strummer as well, but it’s not a fingerpicking instrument in my considered opinion.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Merlin said:


>


Where was this filmed? It looks so familiar.


----------



## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

greco said:


> Where was this filmed? It looks so familiar.


That’s the Monarch Tavern in Toronto.


----------



## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Lots of detail in that--thanks.

In my case I am more than happy with my Ibanez AF95 as far as what I am looking for in an archtop.


----------



## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Merlin said:


> I have a Loar LH-300 that I use for big band rhythm playing. As far as I’m concerned, that’s its great strength. I’ve used it as a sing along strummer as well, but it’s not a fingerpicking instrument in my considered opinion.


As a matter of fact, that may be what my unconscious mind tried to tell me while I was playing the Seagull, and why I did put de Seagull after the Godin and the Loar : archtops may not be for fingerstyle. That's the question I will struggle with for a while, looking for an answer I am at ease with. 

There is a factor you did not mention : LH-300 is laminate while LH-700 is the high end solid wood grade AAA : could the difference be that significant ? I do hope so. Anyway, next months with some string tries will help me make an opinion about how I would use and like this new ax... or not.


----------



## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

mawmow said:


> As a matter of fact, that may be what my unconscious mind tried to tell me while I was playing the Seagull, and why I did put de Seagull after the Godin and the Loar : archtops may not be for fingerstyle. That's the question I will struggle with for a while, looking for an answer I am at ease with.
> 
> There is a factor you did not mention : LH-300 is laminate while LH-700 is the high end solid wood grade AAA : could the difference be that significant ? I do hope so. Anyway, next months with some string tries will help me make an opinion about how I would use and like this new ax... or not.


According to the Loar website, the LH-300 has a carved spruce top.


----------



## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

I'd wish I could play my Loar half as good as this guy...




















Nuages - Django Reinhardt fingerstyle


----------



## GuitarT (Nov 23, 2010)

Johnathan Stout knows how to handle those old archtops if you like old school.


----------



## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Here how it goes, well set with ernie ball's Al/Br (not so jazzy) strings...






Well, sounds weird with headphones on my PC though better on my iPad with good earplugs... :-(


----------



## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

I think you're making a mistake leaving the Godin in the corner. It's a better guitar than the other ones you mentioned even though they cost more. My Fifth Avenue with the two p-90s is a really fantastic guitar and with a bit of string swapping you can get a lot of wonderful tones out of it. I had 13 gauge Flats on it for a long time and I'm now playing 11 gauge half round. For me right now that's the sweet spot I like. It sounds really fantastic either through a tube amp or a super clean solid state or mic'd for acoustic sometimes.


----------



## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

GuitarT said:


> Johnathan Stout knows how to handle those old archtops


That man knows where all his fingers are and what they're doing


----------



## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> I think you're making a mistake leaving the Godin in the corner. It's a better guitar than the other ones you mentioned even though they cost more. My Fifth Avenue with the two p-90s is a really fantastic guitar and with a bit of string swapping you can get a lot of wonderful tones out of it. I had 13 gauge Flats on it for a long time and I'm now playing 11 gauge half round. For me right now that's the sweet spot I like. It sounds really fantastic either through a tube amp or a super clean solid state or mic'd for acoustic sometimes.


Ooops ! I was not quite clear... My guitars all sleep in their case while not played, while the Godin (no electronics) is always at hand, on its own stand, in the corner of the room : I play it any moment I want to. ;-)


----------



## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

mawmow said:


> the Godin (no electronics) is always at hand


I've heard that the 5th Avenues with no pickups have a thinner top than the ones with pups. So the acoustic ones are louder and brighter. Do you know if that's true?


----------



## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> I've heard that the 5th Avenues with no pickups have a thinner top than the ones with pups. So the acoustic ones are louder and brighter. Do you know if that's true?


Unfortunately, I did not compare. :-(


----------



## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Rainy days... :-(
Finally changed the strings for Martin Retro Monel (as suggested by AGF members) on my Loar LH-700 yesterday.
I was not sure to like the sound of d'Addario and ernie ball Al/Br were not any better. 
I agree that these Martin Retro do sound well ! ;-)
I now kind of recognize Mother Maybelle Carter sound. 

I shall have the arriving Summer to taste this archtop sound and decide whether I like it or not... :-/


----------

