# Advice needed!!!! Amp wattage.



## monson (Sep 27, 2010)

What would the minimum wattage be for gigging? crowd's range from 100 to 1000 people from clubs to bars to outdoor venues, need help deciding how big to go, from combo's to cabs and heads.


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

It really depends on the kind of PAs you'll be running across. You can pretty much mic an amp of any size and just use it for foldback and have the main sound go through the PA. It also depends on how loud your band is, what kind of foldback you want, and how much clean headroom you need. For me, personally, 25 watts is all I need for almost any situation. I've played low-volume gigs (but still with a drummer) with only a 15 watt solid-state amp, because it went through the house system. My preference is that more is better, though.  So I've always played larger gigs with 50W and 100W amps. But for me it has never made much difference, really, even with 1000+ crowds, since the PA has always picked up the slack from the amp volume.


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## monson (Sep 27, 2010)

Thanks mark allthough your right about playing through pa's but i want to make sure that i have enough power when we play with out a pa, right now the drums just drown me out and the bass player plays through a 300 wat cab enough said (too much) and i'm not going that powerful too much $$$$$$.


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

How loud the bass player is shouldn't make that much difference, unless you're treading on each others' toes frequency-wise. That comes down to arrangement and making sure you each have a frequency pocket to inhabit and not so much about volume. Ideally, his stuff will be more _felt_ and your stuff will be more _heard_. Well, kinda.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

What kind of music are you playing?

You may be better off with a 100 watt head with a 4-12 and a 2-12 to save some set up time. Also look for a DI out of the head direct to PA to avoid some miking issues.
One of my buds plays out tons and has the above set up with Mesa and also has a Mark5 combo, the combo gets used more than anything else he owns.
He writes in the contract or makes a deal with the venue that he has to have a specific type PA to play and 95% of the time gets it.

He played in the summer outside and the two bands before him had half stacks and he used his combo, no difference in sound other than those in front of the halfstack got a good dose of volume.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

40 watts is more than enough for ANY gig. Any situation that calls for more volume than a 40 watt amp should also have a PA to handle it.

While some players may prefer a 100 watt half stack, there's simply no practical reason to have that much power anymore. Let the PA do the heavy lifting.

Just my $0.02


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## monson (Sep 27, 2010)

the music were playing is classic rock/rock, modern, alternitive, and some metal


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I tend to prefer a 50 watt master volume tube amp as a sort of easily handled approximate maximum size in wattage and weight. That get's me enough stage volume independent of the monitor mix if necessary, and extension cabs if wanted. I'm with others here though, let the PA do the heavy lifting, especially if you want to control stage volume while getting your sound out front. The same rig can work for practices where less PA is used, and still have volume enough to mix with the band, especially if the rhythm section is loud. However, I find it helpful to have others turn down rather than having one player turn up, and in that sentiment I often use a 20 watt amp for quieter circumstances.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

As much as i like heads and cabs I think for jaming I might get a Fender combo and use my GSP1101 to get my metal and rock sounds.
My rig just keeps getting smaller and smaller and i find I never use the wattage of those heads.


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## NB_Terry (Feb 2, 2006)

Milkman said:


> 40 watts is more than enough for ANY gig. Any situation that calls for more volume than a 40 watt amp should also have a PA to handle it.
> 
> While some players may prefer a 100 watt half stack, there's simply no practical reason to have that much power anymore. Let the PA do the heavy lifting.
> 
> Just my $0.02


Agreed. 100 watt amps aren't much louder than 40 watt amps anyways. 

The old "you need 10 times the power to be twice as loud" rule holds true as long as speaker effiency and other things also are held constant. 

For 10 years I've been gigging with an 18 watt Tophat amp. 99% of the time I was fine with that. The other time was when i was sitting in with a band, and the stage volume was ridiculously loud and only vocals were coming through the monitors.

Also, a small wattage amp being run cranked up usually sounds better than a 100 watt amp being run at 1 or 2.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Yeah, I'll just echo what everyone else has said. A nice 20-ish watt tube amp is usually enough, though with more you can get some more headroom if that's your thing. I have a YGM2 that runs at 25 watts and a JTM45 that runs at 35ish watts. Both are plenty loud. I've never needed anything louder.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Yop! Smaller is better! I played trough a Traynor YGM-3 in a club without PA and was loud enough to make people died when I engaged my big muff!


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## funfun (Nov 6, 2010)

You can always run a small 20 watt amp that sounds sweet and just mic it up and run it through the monitors and the PA. Another option is two small 20 watt amps in stereo. Oh ya!


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## krelk (Nov 6, 2010)

Wattage and perceived audio will differ drastically - 20 watts from a fender will differ greatly from 20 watts from a mesa boogie. A good idea would be to borrow an amp or two for a rehearsal or even rent something if you really want a test run before purchasing.


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## monson (Sep 27, 2010)

krelk said:


> Wattage and perceived audio will differ drastically - 20 watts from a fender will differ greatly from 20 watts from a mesa boogie. A good idea would be to borrow an amp or two for a rehearsal or even rent something if you really want a test run before purchasing.


Thats a really damn good idea i think i will rent a few amps for practice and see what i want that way when i buy i will make the right choice thanks krelk


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I own a 100W head and a 412 cab for the tone it gives me: that sound wont be coming from a nice EL84 30W 112 combo any time soon. For metal (old or new) you're going to want at least 50W for the headroom and punch it gives you vs. a lower wattage combo. It's not just the wattage of the high gain heads, it's the voicing. If you want to play Bison BC, get your JTM30 and an EQ pedal and an overdrive out and go to town. However, if you want Between The Buried And Me (no guys, NOT super high gain crap ) or even Alter Bridge (Mark Tremonti), you're going to want something else (in this case, a mesa triple rectifier would do nicely)

I recently picked up a 112 cab for jams, as I thought I'd be leaving my 412 at a rehearsal space and needed something to use at home.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...whatever you neded in order for you and your bandmates to hear you on stage is sufficient. let the sound engineer and sound system do the rest.
in a small venue, where the amp is not miked, 15-20 watts should be adequate. perhaps more if you need extra headroom.


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## krelk (Nov 6, 2010)

The main reason I mention perceived audio between different amps basically comes down to the amps tone stack, speaker choice, and the guitar of choice......then style of music. 

I used to own a Fender SuperSonic 60w 1x12 combo that was plenty loud - I also demo-ed a Carr Amplifier (mercury, I think) that was 8 or 9 watts and FRIGGIN' LOUD!!!! 

The Fender would probably achieve higher decibels in a 'clean' state but the Carr was pretty damn loud in it's own 'clean' state.

A good quality amp (some say hand-wired, the choice is up to you) can achieve some amazing sonic headroom with fairly low wattage. 

....a recent demo of the Egnater Tweaker showed me that it's capable of plenty of headroom @ 15 watts (head through 4x12 marshall cab)... 

I'm not endorsing anything in particular - an individuals sound is ultimately for that individual specifically......but i definitely endorse testing something out in a working environment before dropping significant $$$$$$$.

As a self-described tone junkie, I have done my fair share of trading up & down gear-wise and sometimes we are never tone satisfied....

Music/tone will always be the direct link to communicating on another level & sometimes our journey never reaches a destination but you will know soon enough if the direction you're going is the one that feels/sound right 

Good luck!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I just bought a Dr Z Maz 38 2 X 12 combo. It's basically a single channel 38 watt tube combo with reverb. Sounds like a Fender to me.

If THAT amp isn't loud enough for you, please do NOT EVER call me for a production gig.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

Milkman said:


> I just bought a Dr Z Maz 38 2 X 12 combo. It's basically a single channel 38 watt tube combo with reverb. Sounds like a Fender to me.
> 
> If THAT amp isn't loud enough for you, please do NOT EVER call me for a production gig.


hahahaha, yeah, I bet. My JTM is 37 watts at it's current bias running KT66s and man, can it ever get loud. I made the mistake of not turning on the attenuator at a sound check once and nearly knocked myself over with a power chord. It was like that scene in Back to the Future.










My YGM at 25 watts is plenty friggin' loud too. Anything over 20 watts should easily keep up with drums.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

My best thought on this is that you'll never have your "amp for life that does all things", as your first selection for so many reasons - an important one being that you will find, like us, that you are always chasing something better, or bigger ..... or just different, all of your playing life ...... and that's a fun journey. 

So, as said earlier, a good approach is to rent some things and see how they do. For me, the problem with that is that every amp I've ever owned was the "bestest amp in the world" well, for some period of time anyway and then somehow it would magically lose it's appeal, undergo a speaker change or tube change or mod from heaven. Ultimately though, it was replaced ( or supplemented) with something else which finally is truly the "Bestest amp in the world" .... for a while anyway.

What to do? Best advice, hit the Emporium here for amp........ If it turns out that you're a gear-whore like the rest of us you'll tire of that "bestest amp in the whole world", you'll sell it, or trade it here ...............in the end, you'll get to try a lot of stuff, for as long as you like, and when you think you want something else, you'll sell it/trade it and recover pretty much your entire investment.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> My best thought on this is that you'll never have your "amp for life that does all things", as your first selection for so many reasons - an important one being that you will find, like us, that you are always chasing something better, or bigger ..... or just different, all of your playing life ...... and that's a fun journey.
> 
> So, as said earlier, a good approach is to rent some things and see how they do. For me, the problem with that is that every amp I've ever owned was the "bestest amp in the world" well, for some period of time anyway and then somehow it would magically lose it's appeal, undergo a speaker change or tube change or mod from heaven. Ultimately though, it was replaced ( or supplemented) with something else which finally is truly the "Bestest amp in the world" .... for a while anyway.
> 
> What to do? Best advice, hit the Emporium here for amp........ If it turns out that you're a gear-whore like the rest of us you'll tire of that "bestest amp in the whole world", you'll sell it, or trade it here ...............in the end, you'll get to try a lot of stuff, for as long as you like, and when you think you want something else, you'll sell it/trade it and recover pretty much your entire investment.


He may be allthumbs but he speaks the truth.
I have been through so many amps its not funny, Mesa to Marshall, cheap SS to expensive SS, Low watt, High watt all of it.

End of the day I play through not an amp but a moddler and could not be happier, I have every tone I played with ready to go at the touch of a mouse.
The gear game is a journey, have fun with it and buy so you get your full money back eventualy you may settle on something.


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

I have amps that range from 5w, 30w, 45w, and 100w. The 100w amps get the nod most of the time, mostly because they produce the tone that I'm after. 100w is simply thicker sounding than 30w, regardless of the volume (or lack thereof). It's also why I prefer my 4x12 to my 2x12 or 1x12s.... 4x12s sound thicker, which is a boon when you have to play at lower volumes.

Some people mistakenly believe that wattage = volume when it's simply not the case. It's more about sound and headroom. Kind of a right tool for the job kind of thing. If you're after vintage overdrive tones, complete with a saggy response, you probably want a lower powered amp... maybe even with a tube rectifier. If on the other hand you want an articulate rhythm tone with less vintage mush, then maybe you want something with a bit more headroom. How much headroom is up to you... it's one of those things you need to experiment with to find out.

My main amp produces about 45w on the clean channel, jumps up to 90w on the rhythm channel, then drops to around 70w on the lead channel. It's kind of cool... and oddly enough, all three channels are pretty much the same volume. Funny how those volume knobs can do that....


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## Andy (Sep 23, 2007)

screamingdaisy said:


> I have amps that range from 5w, 30w, 45w, and 100w. The 100w amps get the nod most of the time, mostly because they produce the tone that I'm after. 100w is simply thicker sounding than 30w, regardless of the volume (or lack thereof). It's also why I prefer my 4x12 to my 2x12 or 1x12s.... 4x12s sound thicker, which is a boon when you have to play at lower volumes.
> 
> Some people mistakenly believe that wattage = volume when it's simply not the case. It's more about sound and headroom. Kind of a right tool for the job kind of thing. If you're after vintage overdrive tones, complete with a saggy response, you probably want a lower powered amp... maybe even with a tube rectifier. If on the other hand you want an articulate rhythm tone with less vintage mush, then maybe you want something with a bit more headroom. How much headroom is up to you... it's one of those things you need to experiment with to find out.
> 
> My main amp produces about 45w on the clean channel, jumps up to 90w on the rhythm channel, then drops to around 70w on the lead channel. It's kind of cool... and oddly enough, all three channels are pretty much the same volume. Funny how those volume knobs can do that....


Agreed. I got lazy and took my 15 watt Traynor to band practice the other day, instead of the Marshall. I could hear myself well enough, but my band plays harder rock that requires a firm response, and the Traynor was sagging way too much, even for leads. I can imagine if I was strictly playing rhythm, I'd be after a 412 and 100 watter (I'm running a 212 and a 50) for the dynamic response.


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## monson (Sep 27, 2010)

stupid question what do you mean by head room?


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## krelk (Nov 6, 2010)

I'll take first shot....

I perceive HEADROOM as the ability to have more gas or volume if you want it at any given tone on your amp............It would suck to find THE tone you were looking for and realize that you couldn't turn your volume up any more - possibly getting drowned out by the rest of the band and not being able to hear yourself play.

I've played a few gigs with amps that don't get as loud as you need - they SEEM loud on their own but when other frequencies are added to the mix (bass,drums,vox,other guitars,etc), the added volume of all instruments means you can't hear your own amp.........and that is very UNCOOL!!!!!! If you don't have another amp or means of mic-ing your amp and running it back through the monitors, you are sh*t out of luck!!!!

- also I think it's important to add you'll need more wattage for CLEAN & loud vs DIRTY & Loud. You might find an amp that CRANKS at 30 watts when it's in full overdrive, but what if you realize you like the sound of that amp at 1/3 of the amps gain but you want it loud??? It's always a good option to see how loud an amp can get BEFORE it starts to break-up/distort/go into overdrive....

Cheers!


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Keep in mind that 99.9% of the gigs I play use P.A.'s AND I always carry a mic around with me... but I have been gigging all year with an Orange Tiny Terror. I mainly use a 1x12 cab, but have run it into 2x12 or 4x12's as well. It seems to hold up fine. I have even used it in 2 unmic'd rooms with around 100 people with a 4x12 and was hardly straining it. There are smaller shows where I have even run it in 7 watt mode. I do however feel that Orange amps have a unique bass tone to them. Even their smaller amps have huge amounts of bass response. Especially when you put some better tubes in a Tiny Terror. It's kind of shocking to hear.

I play with at least some overdrive at all times. We play a weird mix of Rockabilly, Surf, Rock, with even a touch of metal. It's not a rig geared for clean tones. It's a rig that combines a great compromise of portability and power. There are some videos posted somewhere on here of me playing the Tiny Terror through a Bogner 4x12 at a show, and you can hear it has no problem whatsoever holding up. I believe I posted the video in the Band Lounge section. EDIT (if it's of any use to you: http://www.guitarscanada.com/band-lounge/37187-torn-down-units-live-orangeville-video.html)

I gigged with a twin for years, and will never do that again. It was overkill for 90% of my gigging situation and mangled my back.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Think of it this way, the best clean most amps make is at less than 50% volume. With a band it may not be possible and with a tube amp you are either into break up or right there. This is where some guys love but if your playing jazz clean you don't want any unless you call for it.

For Metal the higher the volume the less gain, the tubes again start distorting when you get over a certain volume and your gain picks up.
Also with Metal and a low watt amp palm mutes sound thin with a higher watt amp the palm mutes can kick you in the belly!
Now that same palm mute with a 2-12 will sound different than a 4-12 because of the air moving.

Another way to think of it is like a car, low watt is like an economy 4 cylinder on the highway compared to sporty V-8. one is almost flat out and the othe is in the sweet spot with lots of power if you need to step on it.


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

monson said:


> stupid question what do you mean by head room?


The other dudes hit it on the head.

It's basically how loud you can turn an amp up before it starts to breakup, and 'running out of headroom' means having to turn the amp up past the point you find musically pleasing.

Myself, I'm typically a high gain player. I get most of my distortion from the preamp and if I'm lucky I'm allowed to play loud enough that I can also get some compression from the power amp. My 100w amp can easily get as loud as a Marshall 100w Super Lead... but it would've run out of headroom long before that happens because the power tubes would've added so much compression that the results would've been musically unpleasant to me.

Conversely, to get any drive out of that Marshall Super Lead you have to crank the volume pretty f*ckin' loud... so unless you intend on using it relatively clean or you're lucky enough to play in the worlds loudest venue (or you intend on using pedals for most of your distortion) the 100w version might not be the greatest option for you. It may be a better option to choose an amp with less headroom that will achieve it's own natural overdrive at a somewhat lower volume.

I use 100w high gain amps because they're the most practical for my application. If I were playing in a classic rock band I'd happily run a 30w amp and a couple of pedals.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

The rythem player in AC/DC uses no pedals on a clean amp setting, his distortion is from the tube compression and the cranked amp.
I never ever ever get to play like that for more than a second or two.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Bevo said:


> The rythem player in AC/DC uses no pedals on a clean amp setting, his distortion is from the tube compression and the cranked amp.
> I never ever ever get to play like that for more than a second or two.


The perfect head I owned for that was an old Traynor Bassmate lunchbox head. It was about 20 watts (2 EL84's), and seemed to be a perfect size to to get that tone without being too loud. My Tiny Terror gets very close to that, but does start to sag a tiny bit more at those volumes. I wish I still had that little Bassmate, but at the time I sold it I wasn't gigging live and didn't think I would be again.


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## monson (Sep 27, 2010)

Krelk, Bevo, Screamingdaisy.

Thanks for the lesson that knowledge is now permently in the head and will be usefull when i go to purchse a amp, right now im looking at a fender frontman 2x12 100 watt loaded with effects, i wouls stay with my 66 traynor 35 watt 1x12 and i do love it clean is beautiful even cranked but we play heavyer rock and it just doesent have the umpth to keep up with the lead and bass btw the bass player plays through 300 stupid watts and the lead plays with 100 watts and i get dround out i know im just rythm but i still need to be heard.

P.S. i have my amp always turned to 10 i use my pedals to control volume.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Monson

That amp is holding you way back and not that the Frontman is a bad amp but for what you are playing you need more of a metal amp.
Marshall, Peavey and Randall have what your looking for, a 100-200 watt solid state head like this Marshall 100 watt VS100 Head
That or one of them a 2-12 or 4-12 will be less than $500 and blow that Fender out of the water!

Holding that 35 watter on 10 will make for a great fire, be carefull!


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