# Ponder this next time you buy more "stuff"!



## Swee_tone (Mar 23, 2009)

My daughter showed me this today. They were watching it at school. Although I knew most of it already it still is amazing.
Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLBE5QAYXp8


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I watched some of it and had to take a break to go hug a tree.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Too simplistic, and seems a bit like brainwashing to me...........


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

I will predict now this thread will be locked.

Economy, environment, and user goods are all too political. Consumer economy is a failed economy because it is a false economy. There are too many decades of proof of this. There are too many non consuming nations that prove North American consumption is wrong and damaging and simply a fail.

I will also say, when I was 5 and got a Viewmaster and it lasted till I was 12 and only because when 12 I accidentally stepped on it, well... that was far better than the one I bought my son a few years ago that was broken in a week and broke only from being used as intended and not being stepped on.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

keeperofthegood said:


> I will predict now this thread will be locked.
> 
> Economy, environment, and user goods are all too political. Consumer economy is a failed economy because it is a false economy. There are too many decades of proof of this. There are too many non consuming nations that prove North American consumption is wrong and damaging and simply a fail.
> 
> I will also say, when I was 5 and got a Viewmaster and it lasted till I was 12 and only because when 12 I accidentally stepped on it, well... that was far better than the one I bought my son a few years ago that was broken in a week and broke only from being used as intended and not being stepped on.



Hmmm

Failing for decades.

Centuries actually.


I suppose it will still be failing for a few more, LOL.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Hehe yes people are very slow to change. 

It could also be that everything fails to the point no one is in a position to pick it up again. GM workers are finding out no one will pay their pensions, pregnant mom's are being refused employment, and steel workers are finding no one wants their metal. What a loverly saturday paper I have today.

I am 40 years old today.  gosh the time flies by. I did the "what was the world like when you were born?" search. When I was born, the average income was around 10,000 dollars a year. The average car cost about 3,500. This year, the tax forms showed our family of 4 income to be 30,000 to 35,000 dollars (being non-specific of course, its the lower of those really). Up the road, the USED car lot has all these shiny used cars starting at 30,000 and going up to 94,000 dollars. Yes, cars. Not Lamborghini or Porch or Jaguar, but simple 4 door cars of no special note. Saturns and similar slowmobiles like those.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Ummmm ... Happy Birthday ? largetongue



keeperofthegood said:


> It could also be that everything fails to the point no one is in a position to pick it up again. GM workers are finding out no one will pay their pensions, pregnant mom's are being refused employment, and steel workers are finding no one wants their metal. What a loverly saturday paper I have today.
> 
> *I am 40 years old today. *  gosh the time flies by. I did the "what was the world like when you were born?" search. When I was born, the average income was around 10,000 dollars a year. The average car cost about 3,500. This year, the tax forms showed our family of 4 income to be 30,000 to 35,000 dollars (being non-specific of course, its the lower of those really). Up the road, the USED car lot has all these shiny used cars starting at 30,000 and going up to 94,000 dollars. Yes, cars. Not Lamborghini or Porch or Jaguar, but simple 4 door cars of no special note. Saturns and similar slowmobiles like those.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

keeperofthegood said:


> Hehe yes people are very slow to change.
> 
> It could also be that everything fails to the point no one is in a position to pick it up again. GM workers are finding out no one will pay their pensions, pregnant mom's are being refused employment, and steel workers are finding no one wants their metal. What a loverly saturday paper I have today.
> 
> I am 40 years old today.  gosh the time flies by. I did the "what was the world like when you were born?" search. When I was born, the average income was around 10,000 dollars a year. The average car cost about 3,500. This year, the tax forms showed our family of 4 income to be 30,000 to 35,000 dollars (being non-specific of course, its the lower of those really). Up the road, the USED car lot has all these shiny used cars starting at 30,000 and going up to 94,000 dollars. Yes, cars. Not Lamborghini or Porch or Jaguar, but simple 4 door cars of no special note. Saturns and similar slowmobiles like those.


hey keeper-
yup the world is going to hell. you turned 40 today? i turned 40 yesterday. cheers man!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Depending on your perspective, the world has be "going to hell" since WWI.


I'm a little more optimistic than some.


We're going through an sdjustment right now, but the sky is still not falling and I expect I'll be living in the same house, doing the same job a year from now. Not everyone is so lucky of course, but I think we tend to be a bit melodramatic about life.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Lock it now before my left wing tendencies start oozing out. Or is it how much I despise the right. I still haven't figured that one out yet. Yes. Lock it.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

I show this movie in week one of a course I teach. We then spend 4 months "unpacking" it and investigating what it is really saying.

This isn't the place to really get into this, but the history, development, and "logic" of world wide production and consumption is astonishing. However, it takes a strong theoretical and historical framework to structure the discussion, supported by a plethora of systematically collected empirical evidence, to really analyze this stuff; internet forums are simply not conducive to having such a serious scholarly discussion.

To dismiss the clip as "political" is a farce. To reduce the analysis to a set of catch phrases (left or right leaning) is vulgar. It takes a lot of hard work and dedication to study this stuff, and most people simply don't have the privilege to pursue this type of investigation. Thankfully, there are some avenues available to those interested in learning.

TG


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Robert1950 said:


> Lock it now before my left wing tendencies start oozing out. Or is it how much I despise the right. I still haven't figured that one out yet. Yes. Lock it.


I don't see it as political at all. it's cultural. Thats what we are in North America. Where else on earth can you find 300 commercials a day on erectile dysfunction? it's what we have become. We are consumers, of almost anything that can be conceived. How many distortion pedals are there on the market?


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## Swee_tone (Mar 23, 2009)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I don't see it as political at all. it's cultural. Thats what we are in North America. Where else on earth can you find 300 commercials a day on erectile dysfunction? it's what we have become. We are consumers, of almost anything that can be conceived. How many distortion pedals are there on the market?


Thank-you.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> How many distortion pedals are there on the market?


Cool..a new index:

The Distortion Pedal Index of Consumerism and Consumer Confidence....also known as the DPI.

Dave


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

These "educational videos" are very one-sided... We should all just stop buying stuff and ruin the global economy even more...


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

I was skeptical while watching but then I stopped watching when she said the only thing that changes in PC's each year is one tiny piece in the corner.

She also presupposes that you "must" by a new computer, as if the old one just suddenly becomes unusable. In reality no one is forced to upgrade. In fact, I'm willing to bet the average consumer has no reason to... e-mail client, web browser, instant messaging app, word processing, spreadsheets, etc. don't exactly require much power.

Me thinks this video is filled with all kinds of fail.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Well, perhaps you should watch the whole thing before commenting and demonstrating that you didn't actually understand the argument. She doesn't "presuppose" that you "must" buy a new computer.

TG




violation said:


> I was skeptical while watching but then I stopped watching . . .
> She also presupposes that you "must" by a new computer, as if the old one just suddenly becomes unusable. In reality no one is forced to upgrade. In fact, I'm willing to bet the average consumer has no reason to... e-mail client, web browser, instant messaging app, word processing, spreadsheets, etc. don't exactly require much power.
> 
> Me thinks this video is filled with all kinds of fail.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

noobcake said:


> These "educational videos" are very one-sided... We should all just stop buying stuff and ruin the global economy even more...


Or perhaps, you've missed the point. What does "ruining" the economy mean? For that matter, what is "the economy." How is economic growth calculated, what is/is not included in those calculations, and what are the true (total) cost of production and consumption?

The issue doesn't revolve around a simple "stop buying stuff" argument (that position is an oversimplified, strawman attack of your own making). The real issue is to develop a _sustainable_ economy that isn't predicated upon two basic, fundamentally flawed premises (perpetual growth and the creation of money through debt) and a completely absurd form of economic calculations.

TG


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Sustainability and a change in the direction of American consumerism are much needed. I totally agree with that, but before you start dismissing my comments as a "strawman's attack", my comment was more about how educational videos are one-sided rather than anything else. 

The nature of capitalism is responsible for the current state of affairs. It might not be perfect, but it's the best system that we've got...

I'm not against the fundamental message stated in the video. I just thought that the video was a bit oversimplified, childish and many of the claims that it made were inaccurate. Perhaps it was dumbed down for the targeted audience (youth), but frankly, I think today's youth should know how the world really works.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

traynor_garnet said:


> Or perhaps, you've missed the point. What does "ruining" the economy mean? For that matter, what is "the economy." How is economic growth calculated, what is/is not included in those calculations, and what are the true (total) cost of production and consumption?
> 
> The issue doesn't revolve around a simple "stop buying stuff" argument (that position is an oversimplified, strawman attack of your own making). The real issue is to develop a _sustainable_ economy that isn't predicated upon two basic, fundamentally flawed premises (perpetual growth and the creation of money through debt) and a completely absurd form of economic calculations.
> 
> TG


Most people in Canada and the U.S. don't want to change their ways. They're all waiting for things to "get back on track". My personal opinion is that we need to change tracks. I live in a city where virtually everyone drives an automobile. It's ridiculous the way they make their bitchy "hurry up" faces when I'm crossing the road with my 4 year old daughter. Forget about trying to get these folks to take public transit. They can barely wait for pedestrians to get out of their way. Drive thrus are not simply a convenience. There IMO a disgusting symtom of our self-absorbed lifestyles. What an impersonal, polluting and profoundly dumb way to go about it. I could sit here all day writing examples of how culturally ingrained many aspects of excessive consumerism have become......but I'll go play my guitar really, really loud instead!! :smile:

Shawn.


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## violation (Aug 20, 2006)

traynor_garnet said:


> Well, perhaps you should watch the whole thing before commenting and demonstrating that you didn't actually understand the argument. She doesn't "presuppose" that you "must" buy a new computer.
> 
> TG


Maybe I heard her wrong or I'm not thinking straight - I haven't slept in a little over 24 hours but - 

"Have you noticed that when you buy a computer now that technology is changing so fast that in just a couple of years it's actually an impediment to communication?"

If I heard her correctly, it sounds like she's presupposing that you must buy a new computer every couple of years otherwise your communication will some how be obstructed or disrupted. Since ditching 56k modems (which happened what, like 10 years ago?) this hasn't existed. With rapid growth of technology, communication has only sped up (the micro-blogging platform Twitter, for example).

It should be noted that I'm biased... there's currently 4 computers and an iPhone running in this room alone. 

It seems that you have some sort of emotional attachment to the subject, so I won't fight you... much. Plus I need sleep. :sport-smiley-002:


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

If anyone thinks capitalism is bad for the environment, go see some of the mess caused by the Eastern Bloc, and those of the Socialist African nations that have destroyed their environment. In the next 5 - 20 years we will have the next generation of solar power, stable fusion, programmable matter, and all kinds of things that will fix anything that we have damaged. The future is so bright, I gotta wear shades dudes..........


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Every one crying that the world is ending.....it won't for a long time.....people might end, but the world will just be fine for many thousands of centuries. With or without people.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

noobcake said:


> but frankly, I think today's youth should know how the world really works.


i wish my two would get it


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

violation said:


> If I heard her correctly, it sounds like she's presupposing that you must buy a new computer every couple of years otherwise your communication will some how be obstructed or disrupted. Since ditching 56k modems (which happened what, like 10 years ago?) this hasn't existed. With rapid growth of technology, communication has only sped up (the micro-blogging platform Twitter, for example).


Her point is that we live in a culture that is geared to nonstop consumption. _Why_ do people feel they need a new computer?

Answering that question is twofold. First, we need a sociological and historical investigation of the nature of contemporary consumerism. How and why do we, in the span of just over 100 year, go from a society where most people produce most of the stuff they use and consume, to one in which we buy almost everything we have (and have more and more stuff). The answer isn't simply a problem of "morals" or "restraint". It took immense social changes to foster the type of consumption common today (including Government, Business, and cultural values).

The second part of the answer entails an understanding of planned obsolescence. While we are culturally conditioned to assume newer is better, the commodities we now buy _are_ built, planned, and designed with obsolescence in mind. In fact, obsolescence was actually seen as the great solution to 20th century over-production! Now, while we may not _need_ a new computer (for example) the computer we have is built to become obsolete as quickly as possible without deterring potential buyers.

Case in point. The Dell computer I am working on does everything I need. Essentially, all I use are word and excel and I also surf the net. However, my computer is running Windows ME so I cannot install updates for software bugs and errors. I cannot run most virus checkers because they don't support my OS. Web pages often crash my browser because it is no longer supported; apps like Java and Adobe Reader don't integrate or display pages properly. Despite having upgraded to high speed internet, pages take forever to load because more and more advertising is streaming video and audio as I surf; some cites I cannot even look at because they immediately crash my system.

Now, on top of that, the computer is physically falling apart. My floppy drive fell out, my cd rom won't stay closed, the keyboard has keys that don't work (had to _buy_ a cordless), the mouse pad doesn't track properly, the battery won't charge. All of this happens because Dell builds computers that last about 3-4 years tops. Yes, Dell will argue that consumers "want" a new computer in that short time (a "want" that Dell and others create by spending millions on marketing each year), Yet Dell has no interest in creating a computer that lasts longer than that time; they have a vested interest in fostering more consumption because it increases their profits.

Now, neither Dell nor myself _really_ pays for the true cost of this production. All the toxins, contaminants, and resources that go into the computer are passed on to the public during the production and consumption of the commodity (check out how much water is required to produce a batch of CPUs). The pollution goes into landfill, ends up in our water, and poisons our environment. Old electronics are also quietly shipped off to China where urban peasants disassemble the stuff with complete disregard for the environment. Cancer rates are soring in these communities, child labour is used, and the Chinese government keeps it hush hush. Most people have no idea this is going on, or, don't really care what happens to extremely poor brown people on the other side of the world.

What's bizarre about this entire situation? Everything  above is counted and calculated as economic "growth" and, in turn, such economic growth is assumed to be good for society. The economy grows because commodities are purposefully designed to fall apart and not work, it grows as more and more advertising messages are created to entice us to buy, it grows as old computers are shipped around the world (shipping, global trade), it grows as "jobs" are created for people who disassemble computers in dangerous ways (in reality, poor people who are so desperate that they will accept any work regardless of its consequences), it grows as cancer patients receive treatment and buy drugs, it will grow as people buy water because their local stream is contaminated, it grows despite the wealth of natural resources we extinguish to make stuff designed to fall apart and often serves no real purpose . . . 

Yes, the GDP goes up and up, and people celebrate economic "growth" and helping "the economy." Meanwhile, the gap between rich and poor is expanding both within and between countries (the Canadian middle class is shrinking), cancer rates are through the roof, and environmental destruction is threatening our planet. These stark realities inform the quest for a "sustainable" form of economy because, quite simply, our current system is not sustainable; it _will_ kill us unless we rethink our way of life and make the necessary social and economic changes.

All of this is sold under the guise of our luxurious modern lifestyle of ease, despite that fact that we now work more than we ever have in human history. Real wages have fallen since 1970 and many of the positive gains achieved by the middle class in the 20th century are eroding even though global wealth continues to make astronomical gains. This isn't "political" issue but a scientifically demonstrable reality. The solutions to the reality, will nonetheless require political will and change.

Man, instead of marking my student's essay I ended up writing one! 

TG


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

traynor_garnet said:


> Her point is that we live in a culture that is geared to nonstop consumption. _Why_ do people feel they need a new computer?
> 
> Answering that question is twofold. First, we need a sociological and historical investigation of the nature of contemporary consumerism. How and why do we, in the span of just over 100 year, go from a society where most people produce most of the stuff they use and consume, to one in which we buy almost everything we have (and have more and more stuff). The answer isn't simply a problem of "morals" or "restraint". It took immense social changes to foster the type of consumption common today (including Government, Business, and cultural values).
> 
> ...


Not really rocket science. Almost any electronics falls into that category. Companies already have the next 3-4 versions designed, planned and in the queue. This is not new and I hope most everyone understands that. Even the car companies used to get away with it, for many years too. Some people still wont keep a car for much more than a few years. This is where leasing came in. No more than a scam to keep the production lines running. Remember back in the day when your oil was black and your driveway used to be filled with just about every fluid a car could leak. Check your driveways today, they are all clean. Rust is a thing of the past for the most part. 

A good V6 or V8 engine produced by Ford or GM today will last you at least 300,000 KM with very little maintainance other than keeping your oil fresh.

We are a society of buyers, we cannot stop ourselves. More clothes than we need, more shoes than we can wear. 5 televisions in a three bedroom house. 14 telephones, disposable cell phones (practically). Two and sometimes three vehicles.

I took 2 (two) truck loads of household `stuff`to the dump last week. just stuff that had accumulated over the years that was either an ill advised purchase or some gadget that never got used. It`s a real tragedy in my opinion. 

I tell you right now that if I lived in the states I would be broke. If you think we have shopping here you have seen nothing. I doubt there is a thing on earth that is not available in the USA. Even the stores that we have here like Home Depot, Costco, etc are nothing compared to their cousins in the States. There are ten times the items on the shelves that we have here.

When will the madness end


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

I see where you are coming from, but there are also many good things being done as we speak. Alternative energy sources have come a long way, soon we won't be so dependent on fossil fuels, also recycling technology has been drastically improved. Sustainability and the environment are very big issues, but sometimes it seems like the issue just gets overblown by environmentalists and such. Personally, I think nuclear disarmament is a much bigger issue than people upgrading computers too often and buying too many clothes.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

noobcake said:


> I see where you are coming from, but there are also many good things being done as we speak. Alternative energy sources have come a long way, soon we won't be so dependent on fossil fuels, also recycling technology has been drastically improved. Sustainability and the environment are very big issues, but sometimes it seems like the issue just gets overblown by environmentalists and such. Personally, I think nuclear disarmament is a much bigger issue than people upgrading computers too often and buying too many clothes.


Maybe nuclear disarmament is a bigger, or at least more immediately frightening issue, but who says you need to pick only one issue? The thing about rampant consumerism and environmental damage is that YOU have immediate control over at least some small part of the problem. 

It is an adjustment, but consciously avoiding "the new" for the sake of newness is liberating. For example parsing any new electronics into "cool" and "useful" categories - and scrupulously avoiding the merely cool - is easy, effective and entertaining. Trimming the excess fat from your lifestyle (e.g., living on one income and allowing a significant other to stay home, raise kids and pursue artistic endeavors) significantly decreases one's stress level and simultaneously forces one to be very careful about consumption.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not immune to avarice (however, most of my gear is pre-owned) but becoming conscious of your own consumerism is a good thing on many levels.

matt


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Don't get me wrong either, I'm not vouching for the greedy or anything. I'm probably the most frugal and cheap guy that I know. Being aware of the bad habits of consumerism is a great thing, I'm not trying to disprove that or anything. We're all on the same page here, I just don't think that it's as big of a deal as some make it out to be, nevertheless I do think that the current state of society regarding consumerism and wasting things is quite despicable and should be changed.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

:wave: Thanks for those b-days guys!



fraser said:


> hey keeper-
> yup the world is going to hell. you turned 40 today? i turned 40 yesterday. cheers man!


w00t! Cheers right back!

The other point I was trying to make way back up at the top was "value", that what we are consuming today is of either diminishing value (breaks faster like the viewmaster) or is of rising cost for the same product (cars now being more than a years income). These two forces only force people to either over-extend themselves, or to have to have a more frequent replacement cycle. If you get overextended on one item (say a car, because we do need to work, even if a new car will cost you an entire years salary, it is better than being saddled with someone's failed emissions test out of warranty beast) well, you still need to eat, you still need a toaster to toast your bread for instance. So, being out of pocket more so for the car puts people in the position of needing a cheaper toaster. You can easily buy $99 dollar toasters, but you can also buy $9 dollar toasters. The 9 dollar one will make it to land fill far sooner than the 99 dollar one (I'd say metal recycle but there is so much plastic in on toasters these days the metal in them is minimal). This is where the 'low end' shops I think became popular. Dollar stores, discounters, liquidators etc. They sell or re-sell a lot of very poor quality merchandise at low price and short functional lifespan to people that are already overdrawn on too many life needs otherwise.

They need more stuff to replace the easily broken stuff.

>.< and cars. My last 'car' was a 2001 Mazda MPV, bought as an inheritance from my late grandfathers estate (we all got new vehicles). That vehicle had 14 warranty repairs. That vehicle used tiers up every 5000Km. That vehicle used 3 alternators up. That vehicle lasted 3 years, and 179,000Km. Three cylinder walls melted out on the engine and the computer had fried (I could not drive it at night by this time anyway as all the dash lights had burnt out, one at a time over 4 months pop pop pop pop and they were 10 dollars a bulb, 11 bulbs, and 2 or more labour hours to replace them >.<). I sold it. I paid 30,057 for it new (I had all the packages YAY), and three years later I sold it for 1,000. Amazingly, every 6 months or so, I still get notices on it for a recall of one kind or other.

My first vehicle was a 1979 Ford E-150 Van. It had well over 1,000,000Km on the clock and it was still purring like a (BIG) kitten when I sold it. I miss that van :/


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## Gene Machine (Sep 22, 2007)

*we try*

My family and I try to be smart consumers. I'm certainly no tree hugger, but when there is an island of plastic floating around the pacific ocean killing sea life, I think it's time to start thinking about things.

So, we chose a smaller car, we use cloth diapers, we make our own baby food, we try to repair instead of replace. Most of our baby clothes are hand-me -downs and will be going to a deserving home once we are finished with them.

I haven't decided on a next vehicle. I do lke the idea of a vehicle I can repair, rather than a disposible one. I'm not convinced that exists anymore. Maybe a bicycle....

I don't think we have to be unreasonable. On the contrary, if we are reasonable, I think we can find a lot of areas in life that a little change or decision in lifestyle would help, especially when thousands or millions of people all do it.

A few years a go i took the 'live earth challenge' and stopped using disposible Tim Horton's cups... I did it for a couple of years, but lately noticed I have been using a lot of paper cups again. That's my new initiative (all over again)... reusable coffe mug for Tims. Anyone want to join me?

G.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

keeperofthegood said:


> :wave: Thanks for those b-days guys!
> 
> 
> My first vehicle was a 1979 Ford E-150 Van. It had well over 1,000,000Km on the clock and it was still purring like a (BIG) kitten when I sold it. I miss that van :/


Good points Keeper... we try to get most of our stuff through second hand sales and etc. 

The vehicle thing is such a crap shoot. I personally think that the auto was at its best at Chevy Nova. Hard to beat small, simple, easy to fix. Being a buyer of used vehicles, I really resent going into a purchase knowing several weaknesses.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Gene Machine said:


> I haven't decided on a next vehicle. I do lke the idea of a vehicle I can repair, rather than a disposible one. I'm not convinced that exists anymore. Maybe a bicycle....
> 
> 
> A few years a go i took the 'live earth challenge' and stopped using disposible Tim Horton's cups... I did it for a couple of years, but lately noticed I have been using a lot of paper cups again. That's my new initiative (all over again)... reusable coffe mug for Tims. Anyone want to join me?
> ...


I have always had a travel mug. Who wants a hot crotch anyway? ( only in the last couple of years have I had a vehicle with a cup holder) 

Ya I posted above about a Chevy Nova but we have had amazing luck with Saturn. 45 mpg, 300km -2 bearings and 2 sets of brakes - just passed and Etest. My brother-inlaw saw how well we have done and has purchased 3 in the last year for under 3k's.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

[youtube=Option]JLoge6QzcGY[/youtube]

followed by

[youtube=Option]OZbTXDkrD1o[/youtube]


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

HAHA Starbuck! Yes, that is an issue for sure. You know, when I was 10, my buddies and I went to heck and back with bikes, wagons, shopping carts we had pinched. We made MONEY because we went out and picked up loads and loads of bottles 

No Deposit, No Return. That took the fun out of being a kid 

It also made a mess of road side ditches that don't get cleaned up.

At least with car batteries you do get 5 dollars on them (provided you can bs the shop guys into thinking it was your trade in). Wish there was the same on car tires too


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## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

I think I'll try to start early in the race to buy less consumer goods so that I'll be saving money now - and therefore have enough money to last a while when the economy falls apart because nobody's buying consumer goods and the companies that make consumer goods go out of business....tongue planted firmly in cheek.

the video may have been a little "high level".....but the general message is a little more important than the accuracy of the detailed facts.

I personally feel the video was dumbed down for OUR generation - not the youth...we're the ones caught up in this....WE and our previous generation created this......in my observation, a vast majority of today's youth are keenly aware of the problems outlined in the video....and many are prepared and VERY determined to do something about it.

one thing that should be noted as a the most relevant point in the video (IMO) - that this vicious cycle is not a thing like gravity that's just there....people created it........corporations aren't a "thing" that just "POOF" appeared - they were created by people.........

people can fix this.......we just gotta change....man - it's a gonna be tough though.

but for now, I think I'll go play that guitar that was made by a large corporation who employes poor factory workers in Mexico using wood that came from the Amazon (or wherever).....but I'll feel better cause I bought it used.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

keeperofthegood said:


> HAHA Starbuck! Yes, that is an issue for sure. You know, when I was 10, my buddies and I went to heck and back with bikes, wagons, shopping carts we had pinched. We made MONEY because we went out and picked up loads and loads of bottles
> 
> No Deposit, No Return. That took the fun out of being a kid
> 
> ...


There is a great kids' book by Canadian writer Ken Roberts (now the children's librarian in Whitby) called "Pop Bottles" ( http://www.amazon.com/Pop-Bottles-Ken-Roberts/dp/0888990596 ) where some depression-era kids luck into a huge stash of bottles that they try to parlay into a candy-filled future.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Years ago I began to take an interest in American made musical intsruments and related gear. Of the U.S. gear I own and the U.S. gear friends had bought or collected, one thing was always evident.....the quality. Both in terms of build and tone. Not to say that I don't own gear that was made in China that I love...I do. I can imagine that my guitar and amp that were made in China, were likely built under conditions and for a pay rate that would be unacceptable to an American worker. Otherwise what would be the point from a cost savings perspective. Here's the issue: This was done to increase profit, hence boosting a company's worth and stock value. Not unusual by any means. Not all the gear built in Asia is entry/beginner level stock, but much of it is. The build quality spans from generally lower to essentially cheap junk. Again, this is not unusual or unexpected. Last year energy prices spiked dramatically, increasing shipping costs beyond anything likely budgeted for. Fender grew it's line of products on the beliefs that 1) it's customers wanted all different kinds of it's famous guitars and amps, at a lower price point. 2) shipping costs would stay relatively stable for the forseeable future. This led to a price increase of 20-30% clear across the board for all it's products during the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression. Quite suddenly, the advantages of building in Asia became a fiscal nightmare for one of the biggest musical instrument makers in the world. Now is this a sound, sustainable and profitable business practice that was hit by a "perfect storm" of sorts? One could answer "yes", but in my opinion it's the chickens coming home to roost. I own gear that was built well before I was born in the good 'ole U.S. of A, that's still going strong, can be easily repaired and sounds GREAT!! The men and women who made these items were well paid and worked for reasonable hours in decent conditions. Does this have something to do with the fact that they've stood the test of time and still sound great? Well, that's impossible to say for sure, but I believe that it is. A strong domestic market isn't just good for business. It's good for the environment and the morale of a given workforce. The auto sector IS our domestic market and it's turmoil or potential demise has caused Canada's economy to falter. I don't think we need cheap crap built a half a world away and then crammed into a Wal-Mart. Generally Canadians are well paid and can afford to pay for what things are worth. If carbon taxes were implemented we'd soon see the fallacy of this economic model. As with any big change, there would be an adjustment period, but it would likely result in greater prosperity for Canada's manufacturing sector in the long run. I want to buy soy sauce and tea from China, not Barbie dolls and garbage pails.

Shawn :smile:


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## noobcake (Mar 8, 2006)

Well, Rugburn when it comes to the automobile industry, it's "the good ol US of A" that's now producing the crap and the Asian companies are producing the good stuff.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

mhammer said:


> There is a great kids' book by Canadian writer Ken Roberts (now the children's librarian in Whitby) called "Pop Bottles" ( http://www.amazon.com/Pop-Bottles-Ken-Roberts/dp/0888990596 ) where some depression-era kids luck into a huge stash of bottles that they try to parlay into a candy-filled future.


:wave: The Missus has put this on the "will be bought" list! Thank you


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

noobcake said:


> Well, Rugburn when it comes to the automobile industry, it's "the good ol US of A" that's now producing the crap and the Asian companies are producing the good stuff.


Your right noob, but the Asian cars we buy are built here. This isn't an Asian products suck/North American products are great argument. The design and reliability of most Asian car models are superior. My point was about shipping things from half a world away that could be manufactured here. That most of it is poorly made crap that most of us don't really need, only makes it seem all the worse. FWIW anyone who knows me, knows I say "the good 'ole U.S. of A" with my tongue planted firmly in my cheek.

Peace Shawn


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

noobcake said:


> Well, Rugburn when it comes to the automobile industry, it's "the good ol US of A" that's now producing the crap and the Asian companies are producing the good stuff.


I personally think thats an outdated myth. People are sour on domestic vehicles for whatever reason...maybe hearkening back to the 70's and early 80's when they were crap, but these days, all the companies are getting engineers from around the world, they all use the same computers, software etc, most parts are outsourced to companies like Magna, TRW, and MANY others who make parts for whatever OEM they get contracts for (which could be domestic or foreign), and most of the companies assemble in North america. The only difference I might buy into is more stringent quality control on the part of the asians, as well as taking responsibility for their products (asian companies will do a recall fairly openly) whereas it seems from my experience that some domestics will deny problems, blame the issue on the owners, etc. in order to save costs on the recall.
It amazes me how many people I know with Honda's, VW's etc who passionately love their vehicles, swear they will always buy them, and seem to be in the shop once a year to the tune of $1500-2000..  It must be b/c they are a pleasure to drive, which admittedly they are.
My 2001 Dodge Durango has 240k on it, and has had maybe $1000. in repairs its entire lifetime (not including oil, filters and tires). It is however, not a pleasure to drive.

Back to the topic, I'd like to see a moderate solutiuon to this problem of consumerism that we all agree exists. It sickens me when I see how much junk people throw out that they probably should never have bought anyways.

Even small things like the new initiative to make all cellphone chargers from the various manufacturers standardized is a great step in the right direction, and a win for everyone.


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