# Should we make killers famous?



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Another psycho goes on a ramage and kills one and injures 19 in a school.


WHY do we insist in having his face and name all over the front pages of the paper, TV and internet?


Are we not granting these bastages the fame many of the crave and by doing so, ensuring that others will follow their lead?


Why don't we just call them "the gunman"? 


It's a matter of supply and demand. When we as consumers stop lapping this crap up the media will in all liklihood stop shovelling it.



I make a point of NEVER mentioning the names of the guys who killed Lennon or Dimebag.


Your opinions?


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

Agree with you on this one.

Absolutely, no picture, no name nothing. "The Gunman" is perfect.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Some would say the absolute opposite, citing the way young offenders act works to hide the identities of young criminals..........


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Some would say the absolute opposite, citing the way young offenders act works to hide the identities of young criminals..........




I think the difference is that I would not propose that killers receive leniency. It's a matter of not granting them bizarro stardom. I also understand the public's right to know, but I think there's a morbid hunger for details regarding the killer's life and what made him tick and blah blah blah.


It just bothers me that every year on the anniversary of Lennon's murder his killer's name is once again spoken and printed all over the media.

He doesn't deserve to be remembered.

Lennon does.


Same goes for this most recent incident in Montreal. Anastasia was slaughtered by a complete stranger. Her name will likely be forgotten but his will be repeated and remembered.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

So, would you apply that to all criminals like the YOA does? The YOA is great because your next door neighbor could have been 17 and raped a bunch of 4 year olds, and you would never even know about it. I say plaster all criminals faces and names everywhere so you know who they are. Put a tattoo on their forehead.............


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## elindso (Aug 29, 2006)

Yeah but this putz is dead. Let him stay dead. let the psychologists have a field day. Let the psych students read about him. Don't give him glory in his and others suffering.

*Anastasia died for no reason at all *other than some sick f*ck hadn't the guts to comfront his demons. He went to a school and shot children for the glory of going down in a hail of bullets.

He was 25 time to get over high school. He was an adult. At least he is dead.

My friends have kids that go to Dawson. My daughter has frineds with older siblings that go there. It's now a scary place for them.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> So, would you apply that to all criminals like the YOA does? The YOA is great because your next door neighbor could have been 17 and raped a bunch of 4 year olds, and you would never even know about it. I say plaster all criminals faces and names everywhere so you know who they are. Put a tattoo on their forehead.............



Do you not see the downside of turning guys like this into folk heros?


Some other sick f%#k is right now reading all about this guy and imagining himself becoming a martyr to the cause of insanity.

It's not like this guy is going to find it easier to commit more crimes shielded by anonymity (he IS deceased).


Do you think the piece of crap who killed Lennon should be a media celebrity?


If you do, that's ok I guess.


I don't.


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## zao_89 (Feb 17, 2006)

SCREEM said:


> LOL....mmmm spicy shrimp flavored icecream


 I think you quoted the wrong post? Guessing that shouldve been in the thai food thread?


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## SCREEM (Feb 2, 2006)

ummm yeah...dunno what happened there?

+1000 on Milkman's post, the damn media is probably a contributing factor in these tragedies.


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## elindso (Aug 29, 2006)

He should be gone from the news. We don't need a trial. Thank God.

Clifford Olson, Willie Pickton, and the rest of them should be dead also. 

There is a morbid fascination with these sickos. It's hard to explain, but had he lived someone would have shown up at the jail and married him.

It's tough he was bullied and felt different and had a sh*tty life. He blew all that though. He grew up to be dead. And took someones child with him.F*ck him and his problems.

Selfish POS.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

elindso said:


> He should be gone from the news. We don't need a trial. Thank God.
> Clifford Olson, Willie Pickton, and the rest of them should be dead also.
> There is a morbid fascination with these sickos. It's hard to explain, but had he lived someone would have shown up at the jail and married him.
> It's tough he was bullied and felt different and had a sh*tty life. He blew all that though. He grew up to be dead. And took someones child with him.F*ck him and his problems.
> Selfish POS.


...while i doubt that the police had much choice but to shoot the guy, i don't see the point in celebrating his death. one of the reasons we don't have capitol punishment in canada is that we believe that killing murderers makes us no better than the murderers. 

-dh


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...while i doubt that the police had much choice but to shoot the guy, i don't see the point in celebrating his death. one of the reasons we don't have capitol punishment in canada is that we believe that killing murderers makes us no better than the murderers.
> 
> -dh


Rreports indicate that he was wounded by the police but took his own life.

I don't celebrate anyone's death, but I think his dying saved him and society lots of money and time.

Capitol punishment? That's another issue, but I personally have only ONE problem with executing murderers.

What happens when our justice system makes a mistake? With such highly visible cases as we have seen where people have been jailed for decades and later found innocent, I just can't justify the risk that we would execute an innocent person.


Other than that, I would have NO compunction with throwing the switch on a killer. It's like putting a rabid dog down. Sometimes you have to do it.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Other than that, I would have NO compunction with throwing the switch on a killer. It's like putting a rabid dog down. Sometimes you have to do it.


...i have some qualms about killing people. i just think we are capable of better than that. at other times, i think i simply ended up on the wrong planet, because killing each other appears to be what earthlings do best.

-dh


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

When in doubt of any issue, always consult the 2 great ones............

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5342014491745804302&q=penn+teller


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...i have some qualms about killing people. i just think we are capable of better than that. at other times, i think i simply ended up on the wrong planet, because killing each other appears to be what earthlings do best.
> 
> -dh


Well, as much as I tend to be very softhearted I'm of the opinion that once you take a life in the process of committing a crime, yours is forfeit.

Again though, I don't support capitol punishment because I don't think we are at the stage where we can be absolutely certain we're executing the right person.

Executing ONE innocent person is enough to make it a bad thing in general to me.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Well, as much as I tend to be very softhearted I'm of the opinion that once you take a life in the process of committing a crime, yours is forfeit..


...probably, but i'm not sure that we humans, flawed as we are, get to decide who lives and who dies. but i want you to know this isn't about compassion. i want to see somone like paul bernardo live as long as possible and suffer as much as possible. you know, just in case there is no afterlife, and death, in effect, is therefore a (rather undeserved) reward. 

-dh


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Accept2 said:


> When in doubt of any issue, always consult the 2 great ones............
> 
> http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=-5342014491745804302&q=penn+teller



I love the one on recycling.... I was never sold on it.


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## rippinglickfest (Jan 1, 2006)

*Bad News*

The sad reality of the world is that Bad News sells...and its all about money and ratings.............the focus is always on what went wrong today or whats going wrong............small wonder all these berserkers are running around looking for their 15 minutes of fame..
Id like to see all the news networks worldwide report nothing but good news for a day................it wont happen though because we seem to feed off misery.
Ray


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Correct. Its a pull system, not a push system. You require fans to be famous. Its not a secret the word fan is derived from the word fanatical. I cant tell you the name of the guy who killed Lennon. I also dont remember the name of the shooter at this college. Why? It's just not something I'm fanatical about. I can recite the lyrics to alot of Lennon's stuff though. We choose what we want to remember, because we deem it to be important. Want it to go away, start tuning out........


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Correct. Its a pull system, not a push system. You require fans to be famous. Its not a secret the word fan is derived from the word fanatical. I cant tell you the name of the guy who killed Lennon. I also dont remember the name of the shooter at this college. Why? It's just not something I'm fanatical about. I can recite the lyrics to alot of Lennon's stuff though. We choose what we want to remember, because we deem it to be important. Want it to go away, start tuning out........



Well, my memory doesn't work that way. If I see, read or hear someone's name five or six times, I know it, plain and simple. I don't want to remember it, but if I say the word blue, blue, blue, blue blue over and over in this thread (well, like I just did) and I ask you what color I mentioned a week from now, surely you're not going to tell me that you can't remember it.

If that's the case, with all due respect, you may have a memory problem.


My complaint is that we collectively seem to treat real tragedies as entertainment, the ultimate reality television.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*"Oh Canada..."*



david henman said:


> ...probably, but i'm not sure that we humans, flawed as we are, get to decide who lives and who dies. but i want you to know this isn't about compassion. i want to see somone like paul bernardo live as long as possible and suffer as much as possible. you know, just in case there is no afterlife, and death, in effect, is therefore a (rather undeserved) reward.
> 
> -dh


Capital punishment or life in prison? The age-old question but here in Canada we give it a unique twist:

We do neither...

Murderers in Canada can and do get out in as little as 7 years, even less if we copped an insanity plea. 

If the court declares you legally insane then you are put in the hands of the men in white coats. Note that it wasn't a doctor who decided you were too crazy to be criminally responsible. That was done by a judge and some are easier to fool than others.

So you're off to the bughouse and as soon as they decide you no longer have snakes living under your hat they can and do release you. 

This happened with a man who contracted for my father-in-law. He chopped up his wife with an axe when she told him she was leaving him. He was home in less than 2 years.

Even "sane" murderers typically spend only about 15 years behind bars.

So during the trial we hear "Capital punishment is wrong! But to satisfy you "mean" folks how about we let him rot in jail for life!"

Then once we put him in jail we decide that it was "a crime of passion, a momentary aberation and 'he's shown that he's rehabilitated!'" Out the door he goes but as quietly as possible. After all, we don't want those "mean" types to catch on...

Gee, I'm so impressed by our justice system today! I feel so much safer for my children under the way things are done!

BTW, wonder how Carla is making out these days...


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Capital punishment or life in prison? The age-old question but here in Canada we give it a unique twist:
> 
> We do neither...
> 
> ...



Sadly, what you say is true. We're WAY too lenient on violent criminals. He11 these guys can often come out opf prison with a college education. I'm not saying the pen is a holiday resort, but I do think we're too gentle with these folks.


Still, executing them is not something our legal system is capable or qualified to do with any assurance of getting the right guy everytime.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Milkman said:


> If that's the case, with all due respect, you may have a memory problem.
> 
> 
> My complaint is that we collectively seem to treat real tragedies as entertainment, the ultimate reality television.


My memory is fine. I just never read up on the shooting. When I surfed the Ottawa Sun, they had a big story and stuff, but I skipped it and went to the Money section. These shootings just dont interest me enough to want to read about them. If you dont like it in the media, change the channel, or go to another story, no one is forcing you to read it or watch. We arent powerless robots that have to watch or read what they show us. Besides, there was a much better story that day about someone running for cancer in memory of Terry Fox. I remember his name, but then I spent more time reading about him than any donkey who went out and shot up a bunch of people.................


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

If we, as a species, never made killers famous, then we never would have invented religion

Oh, what a wonderful world that wuold be... 

Besides... this guy isn't famous.... he's a flash in the media... in 5 years (Or even less) nobody who wasn't directly connected to the event will even be able to remember his name....


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> My memory is fine. I just never read up on the shooting. When I surfed the Ottawa Sun, they had a big story and stuff, but I skipped it and went to the Money section. These shootings just dont interest me enough to want to read about them. If you dont like it in the media, change the channel, or go to another story, no one is forcing you to read it or watch. We arent powerless robots that have to watch or read what they show us. Besides, there was a much better story that day about someone running for cancer in memory of Terry Fox. I remember his name, but then I spent more time reading about him than any donkey who went out and shot up a bunch of people.................



Really? You can selectively stop reading mid sentence and not see the name, or mute the audio on the TV in a similar fashion? What if the story is important? What if you know people who live in the area of the crime or even attend the school in question?


I'm sorry, but that doesn't really work for me and almost certainly not for the vast majority of people.

I watch the news. I read the news on the internet and in the paper. It's simply not realistic to surgically edit by ignoring a few words here and there.

The reason this stuff is printed and repeated is a simple matter of supply and demand. IT SELLS!!


My problem is that it sells. Why?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> If we, as a species, never made killers famous, then we never would have invented religion
> 
> Oh, what a wonderful world that wuold be...
> 
> Besides... this guy isn't famous.... he's a flash in the media... in 5 years (Or even less) nobody who wasn't directly connected to the event will even be able to remember his name....



I wish that were true, but the fact that the two individuals who committed the Columbine massacre are still regularly featured on A & E and other shows is evidence that that is not the case.

We still talk about Ch$%es Ma#$on. There are freaking T-SHIRTS with his likeness on them.


Maybe this guy will have less longevity in the limelight than others, but he's had more than his fifteen minutes already has he not?


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Milkman you watch way too much tv. Its very easy to avoid all this stuff. If it aint Star Trek, Lost, or a great cartoon, than I dont pay any attention to it. If it happens to someone I know, I am sure I would find out, and it wouldnt be from someone who is paid to run around saying the sky is falling.............


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Don't forget "House".. it is tough to avoid a lot of this stuff completley though. Just about every media outlet loves to jump on this stuff and milk it to death. I like to listen to the radio news and they will just keep going over it again and again. The more dead, the more they run it.

Even on Howard Stern yesterday they were talking about this on in Montreal. It appears that fat Artie Lange was on Conan the night before and this freak that did the shooting posted a blog 12 hours before he flipped his lid. Said something about Lange's appearance on the show. 

These people always have a "I want to be important" complex it appears. Now he is just dead.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Milkman you watch way too much tv. Its very easy to avoid all this stuff. If it aint Star Trek, Lost, or a great cartoon, than I dont pay any attention to it. If it happens to someone I know, I am sure I would find out, and it wouldnt be from someone who is paid to run around saying the sky is falling.............



No, I don't think so. I watch news for less than an hour a day (the major stories are featured in the first five minutes) and one or two days a week I'll watch something on Discovery or similar. That's it.


I haven't watched a sit com since Seinfeld ended and avoid reality TV like the plague.

Nevertheless, unless you live in the woods.....


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

" I watch news for less than an hour a day"

So, you're the one creating the exact problem that you're complaining about.......


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> " I watch news for less than an hour a day"
> 
> So, you're the one creating the exact problem that you're complaining about.......



That's a bit extreme wouldn't you say?


I want to know what's happening in the world around me. That doesn't mean I want to see murderers treated like rock stars.


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## Guest (Sep 19, 2006)

Hey... you started this thread didn't you?

So, who is it, treating whom like a "rock star"?

While we're at it, have you ever called a complaints hotline to complain about how many people complain?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> Hey... you started this thread didn't you?
> 
> So, who is it, treating whom like a "rock star"?
> 
> While we're at it, have you ever called a complaints hotline to complain about how many people complain?



Whatever man. I practice what I preach. Find a post I've made where I quote the name of such a criminal.

Your second question is beyond my understanding. I presume it's a joke, in which case, I'll commence holding my sides now. Please confirm so I don't laugh inappropriately.:confused-smiley-010


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Gee, I'm so impressed by our justice system today!


...you won't get much of an argument here. we tend to punish the victim and reward the criminal. makes no sense. its not even a political thing, as nothing changes when there is a conservative government in power.

-dh


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## keefsdad (Feb 7, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...while i doubt that the police had much choice but to shoot the guy, i don't see the point in celebrating his death. one of the reasons we don't have capitol punishment in canada is that we believe that killing murderers makes us no better than the murderers.
> 
> -dh


I don't believe in capital punishment either, but in this case it seems like he saved us a lot of time and money.


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2006)

"Find a post I've made where I quote the name of such a criminal."

Now you're just splitting hairs.... You're the one who wants to talk about criminals.... you started this thread.... You're the one creating (Or exacerbating at least) the problem.....

And no... it wasn't a joke... it was sarcasm... used to ridicule you


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## synop7 (Feb 2, 2006)

*We should name names*

Take it from an insider. I've been in tv news for over 20 years

People do wanna know names, details and the whole story

And as long as f***** morons will write s*** like ms Wong of the Globe (that the Dawson killer shot students because he could'nt speak french):rockon2: , the media has the right and the obligation to tell the story and the whole story.

And please guys, don't tell me you don't wanna know. You'll be the first to look ont the web for details, or slow down to take a good look at the car crash.

Don't worry, you're not sick, you're humans.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

The Leafs lost last night. Gerber was sharper than Raycroft..............


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

synop7 said:


> Take it from an insider. I've been in tv news for over 20 years
> 
> People do wanna know names, details and the whole story
> 
> ...


"People do wanna know names, details and the whole story"


Perhaps people do, but I don't. Rationalizing the practice based on supply and demand doesn't change the reality that whackos are inspired by the notoriety of like minded individuals to commit their own moments of glory.


I don't think we should make these nuts famous.

That's a simple statement and I stick by it.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ClintonHammond said:


> "Find a post I've made where I quote the name of such a criminal."
> 
> Now you're just splitting hairs.... You're the one who wants to talk about criminals.... you started this thread.... You're the one creating (Or exacerbating at least) the problem.....
> 
> And no... it wasn't a joke... it was sarcasm... used to ridicule you


Talking about criminals in general terms and publishing their names and faces are somewhat different in my opinion.

If I'm splitting hairs, you're generalizing.

As for your "joke", yeah I'm still sore from laughing. Keep working on that.


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