# How much wiggle room do dealers actually have on new cars?



## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

It seems the days of listening as my dad haggled to have a radio even put in the car, are over. You now pick a model and then pick which 'edition' you get. People keep telling me there is less negotiating room these days, but what are we talking?

Let's say the car comes up on the website for $50,000. Could you haggle down 10% and get it for $45,000? Is that dreaming, is that too little? I know everything is up for bargaining (perks, add ons, interest rates, trade in value) but at what point do you give?

Any advice appreciated,
TG


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## Alan Small (Dec 30, 2019)

this will be interesting...if we have a dealer in the group will he/she tell the truth?


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## Westhaver (Jul 26, 2015)

I think there are several sites that will show you dealer invoice and what people typically pay. Cars Cost Canada is one example.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

I like to pin the dealers between my bumper and a brick wall so they have very little wiggle room.


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## DavidP (Mar 7, 2006)

Even if you negotiate the dealer invoice price, remember there's a holdback amount (2-3%) the manufacturer repays back to the dealer when the car is sold that will fly under the radar. So if you buy at invoice, the dealer is still making some $$!


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

traynor_garnet said:


> It seems the days of listening as my dad haggled to have a radio even put in the car, are over. You now pick a model and then pick which 'edition' you get. People keep telling me there is less negotiating room these days, but what are we talking?
> 
> Let's say the car comes up on the website for $50,000. Could you haggle down 10% and get it for $45,000? Is that dreaming, is that too little? I know everything is up for bargaining (perks, add ons, interest rates, trade in value) but at what point do you give?
> 
> ...


Varies between manufacturers. As a general rule dealerships make FA from new car sales. As another general rule, the cheaper the car, the smaller the profit margin.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

DavidP said:


> Even if you negotiate the dealer invoice price, remember there's a holdback amount (2-3%) the manufacturer repays back to the dealer when the car is sold that will fly under the radar. So if you buy at invoice, the dealer is still making some $$!


Yeah, holdback is/was meant to offset carrying cost interest (on wholesale floor plan notes) originally and still by many, you don’t think all that inventory is bought and paid for, right? There may be other manufacturer to dealer incentives you never hear about (particularly but not exclusively on prior year stock) so “cost” is a moving number, and not accounted the same at all dealerships....where I used to work, cost was ‘packed’ with extra margin the salespeople didn’t have access to in negotiations, tho management had discretion to get into it. Some stores add monthly interest costs on the fly on each unit. So looking at an internet invoice may or may not have any relationship to how a particular dealer sees their pricing in house.

@Okay Player also correct in both statements. Used and back end (parts service body) are the profit centres, new is, speaking broadly, a break even or even a loss leader at lots of stores.

Lastly, you mentioned interest rate. Any advertised rate will very likely be non negotiable. If using standard rates, going to your own bank/whatever financial institution will, again highly likely, will net you the lowest cost. No harm in asking, of course.


Something I have lost track of, how much are doc fees (looking more for a range, I know they wont be the same everywhere) and will dealers waive them these days? Totally bogus pure profit item. Make sure your final price is your FINAL price before you get handed over to the ‘business manager’ or whatever they call the finance/paperwork person.


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## TVvoodoo (Feb 17, 2010)

I worked in the finance office and the sales floor (Auto dealership). I saw everything, was surprised on how little the dealer made on new cars. That's why the finance office and add-ons are so key to the dealer. Extended warranty, paint and upholstery protectants, anti-theft, loan insurance etc.
My particular dealership had all kind of discounts, military, police, student, etc. etc. that also cut into profits. Often the reserve from the banks on financing was nice... the banks are hungry for the loan business... but are choosy on types of customers also. Again, it is true that the service end is where they can try to make it back, via warranty and regular maintenance.

I could not believe how many people have REALLY bad credit are actively shopping for cars. Getting their credit checked time and time again by every dealership in town. Each time that is done, it is noted by the banks and nudges that score down even a little more. Even people who have very high (to me) income like a twenty grand a month flowing in, so deeply financed on home, toys, furniture etc... Then if they banks thought they were sketchy, there were the other "finance" options which to me looked like little more than loan sharking. It was a constant battle trying to finance people who in my opinion should have been bus people, or vastly lower their transportation expectations. I was a fish out of water in the finance office. LOL!


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Undercoat, Electronic rust prevention devices, scotchgard, extended warranties. I was always told these used to be the real profit makers and to avoid them. Not sure if those are still pushed.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Have you ever talked to someone who thinks their OEM rusproofing actually going to protect their car?


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## SG-Rocker (Dec 30, 2007)

Having worked at dealerships for a number of years, a number of years ago as a mechanic, I've observed a couple of tips on getting a good deal.

1) Do not indicate to the salesman that you are looking to buy, you are only looking to look, make him work for your interest.
2) If the perfect vehicle is sitting on the lot, winking at you.... do not in anyway indicate your fondness for it, they will be more likely to hold out on offering a deal if they know the vehicle is essentially selling itself.
3) Salespersons will always center the conversation on 'how much can you afford a month' and not how much you can afford overall. This is how schmucks end up with 9 year amortization period.
4) Back to point two, if the perfect vehicle is on the lot look at vehicles and even test drive vehicles that do not interest you. Make your ideal vehicle the last one you look at and make it clear that while it's ok, it's not exactly what you're after. After much humming and hawing, make a low (but not lowball low) offer, kinda like you're just throwing a price out there. Be prepared to walk away, and do walk away if they won't at least make a decent counter offer. It is not unheard of for dealerships to call you back in to take you up on your offer days later. When and if you go back in, and before you commit, demand an upgrade.... a free spray in bed liner or Krown are good examples. If they called you back in, they'll likely bite or at least split the cost on the upgrade.

Case Study.

I set out to buy a Ram 1500 in 2016. I wanted a reg cab, short box Express model. I found one at a dealership (they are astoundingly rare these days) and went in to check it out. As soon as I hit the lot, I was approached by a sales rep. I make it clear that I was just looking but if anything I was looking for a 4 door truck, which in Alberta is status quo. He wanted to show me a full-jam Longhorn model and we walked by the truck I wanted on the way. I joked that you rarely see reg cabs anymore on the lots and the salesman made a comment to the effect that they can't give them away because no one wants to buy them, particularly the lower trim models. I went on to road test 3 trucks but in the end I was prepared to walk away. The salesman asked if there was anything else I was interested in. I made an off the cuff remark that I should take that reg cab off his hands as a favour and asked for the bottom line price to make it go away. He said it listed at $42,000 (which was true) but could let it go for $35,000. I jokingly countered with $30,000 and he said that was too low. I thanked him for his time, left my number and said if they changed their mind to give me a call.
3 days later I get a call, it was the salesman calling to take me up on my offer. I told him I was ready to pull the trigger on a truck across town. He asked what it would take to get me to come in and I said a spray in bed liner and WeatherTech floor liners (~$1200 value). Two hours later I got a call to sign the papers. I also got 0% financing and a $200 in store credit for parts which I used towards a tonneau cover.

The key take away is to remember that they need you more that you need them.

Lastly I need to emphasize point 3 above: never, and I mean never fall into the "what kind of monthly payment can you afford" trap. There are far too many folks that get suckered into buying waaay more that they need at the expense of a amortization period that will outlive the vehicle and the interest that goes with it.

PRO TIP - If when you sit down with the salesperson, they take out a sheet of paper and draw two lines dividing it in to four squares (google '4-square sales'), they're preparing to mount you. You've been warned!


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

player99 said:


> Have you ever talked to someone who thinks their OEM rusproofing actually going to protect their car?


My neighbor! The guy was selling the thing to me after he got it.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> Undercoat, Electronic rust prevention devices, scotchgard, extended warranties. I was always told these used to be the real profit makers and to avoid them. Not sure if those are still pushed.


I sold them for a few years late 80s at a rural Ford store. Lust (Scotchguard) dust (paint protectant) and rust (proofing) are high profit low risk. Extended warranty, I’m too out of touch now but, back then, your odds were not that bad of getting your money’s worth, and the factory version wasn’t hugely profitable for the store, until the car hit the service department needing to use it. Life, dis, and unemployment insurance were very very profitable, if you had high sales penetration back then, you were probably making 6 figures, I didn’t but it was a conservative area.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I gotta wonder though, if someone actually uses the rust and paint protection they paid for, is it still a ripoff?


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Budda said:


> I gotta wonder though, if someone actually uses the rust and paint protection they paid for, is it still a ripoff?


No. It's just that the 'comeback with a problem' rate is so low it's ridiculous. Typically paint problems would be factory warranty anyways. Rust, I'm sure out east it's a different animal, but out in the west it's not an issue almost ever, in the timeline that the rustproofing guarantee would cover.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

With new cars, I dont think the margin is very high to negotiate down from.

Its the one industry I think where paying cash *usually doesnt help get a lower price because of the above, unless there are extenuating circumstances on the dealer end. They make more money from the financing side of things.

Always negotiate on the OTD price not initial price...all the other stuff that gets added in has high margin...upgrades/accessories, mats, tints undercoat whatever, so its to your advantage to negotiate with that stuff all in.

Lots of other factors like time of year, time of month, supply/demand, are the new ones about to come out (or is it a new one), other incentives like through Costco membership etc

if youre serious, buy the Kelley book which has costs listed. Always remember that they have to make some profit and going into a not for profit territory might not have you taken seriously.

I sometimes go against the "dont show too much interest" approach. Having worked in sales before, if theres a lot of tirekickers coming in and out, sales people dont often give their best price to every shmuck that comes in the door if they dont think theyre serious. so its sometimes better to try the other side of the coin. "I want to buy today IF I can get it at X price" etc. That turns the tables on the sales rep....they start thinking about their commission which could mean a new hot tub or simply keeping their job, and could result in them working harder to close the deal.

Go to more than 1 dealer, see what works.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Thanks to all with some industry knowledge who are posting.

I guess a key thing for me, reading the replies is this; find the absolute best deal you can on the car you actually want before even stepping onto the lot.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

traynor_garnet said:


> It seems the days of listening as my dad haggled to have a radio even put in the car, are over. You now pick a model and then pick which 'edition' you get. People keep telling me there is less negotiating room these days, but what are we talking?
> 
> Let's say the car comes up on the website for $50,000. Could you haggle down 10% and get it for $45,000? Is that dreaming, is that too little? I know everything is up for bargaining (perks, add ons, interest rates, trade in value) but at what point do you give?
> 
> ...



Yeah you can still haggle.

I bought a Cherokee in October 2019 and haggled then. I was going back and forth between two dealerships, playing them off against each other. When it came time to do finalize a deal, Salesperson A wanted me to come back to her with the deal worked out with Salesperson B on the promise that she would beat it. I had info on the dealer cost of the car from a neighbor who is a Chrysler retiree, and who was also letting me use his employee/retiree discount (I hadn't told the salespeople that).

When negotiating with Salesperson B he was far more upfront and easier to deal with than Salesperson A. He was also offering a better deal. When I was getting close to buying I let him know that my neighbor had recommended him, and that I would be using the employee discount. At that point, he knocked more money off and I liked, but didn't love, the price. I then played the final card in my hand. I said I was willing to sign if I got the car on the road for X amount. When he said he wasn't sure he could go that low I gave him an option - he could accept my offer and I would put down $5000 cash as a downpayment (I had the cash in an envelope in my hand so he knew I had the money on me), or he could stick to his price in which case I would put my downpayment on one of my credit cards. That particular card is a Black card (a World Elite card) and the banks charge merchants much higher fees when a customer uses one (not sure why they do this or whymerchants accept the cards with higher fees). I told him that the fees they would pay when I used my card would cut into their profit more than the discount he would be giving me for accepting cash. He went away for a couple of minutes, then came back and asked if he could count out the cash while I signed on the dotted line.

When the deal was being finalized (ie. while the paperwork was being drawn up and they were confirming that they could source the vehicle at another local dealership) the sales manager sat down with me. Before he did, my sales guy warned me not to accept anything he was offering (rustproofing, extended warranty, etc.) because it was all a ripoff. I told him I had no intention of agreeing to any of it. The sales manager tried, but after a few minutes I could tell he was just going through the motions because he realized I wasn't biting.

Salesperson A was pissed off that I had signed without giving her the chance to beat the offer, but by that time I was sick and tired of the whole process so wasn't about to keep it going.

During the buying process I had also looked at something from another manufacturer and spent a good bit of time negotiating with the sales guy. We couldn't come to an agreement (I'm now glad that we didn't) so I walked away. He kept calling me for several days offering to negotiate more, and only stopped when I told him I had purchased the Cherokee.

So yeah, you can definitely negotiate.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I fucken hate the "Car buying from dealership" experience. There nothing more than shysters. in the past 20 years I've bought brand new cars and run them in to the ground, driving them as long as I can. And the primary purpose of this is so I can avoid having to deal with car salesman. When I buy a car I reject all add-ons. Not a single one. If I'm buying a car, I'm buying a car and nothing else. The car I'm driving now I bought brand new in 2016 and I expect I'll drive it till 2026 and maybe beyond. It helps that 2 years ago I landed a job thats a 3 minute drive from home. I could probably go with out a car being that close to work.
My wifes car we bought new in 2015 and we'll like have that until atleast 2024. Although she works in the next town 25 minutes away, she only goes in to the office 1 to 2 days a week due to Covid. The longer this pandemic lasts the longer our cars last I guess. Both of them we splurged on the top trim levels as this was our last treat before retirement (Me in 2025\26) Both cars have been paid off for a while.
I had the dealership pull the "we want your car_ spiel on me a couple of times and I went in to hear what they had to say. They didn't offer me anything extraordinary. for my car in trade and I really couldn't care less about buying a brand new car at this point so I declined what they were offering.
I hate dealerships because for the most part they make the buying experience very, very unenjoyable.
On both my vehicles I negotiated a very good price. But it took a lot of negotiating (3 hours in the dealership over my wifes car and over 2 days of negotiating for mine.
With my car the salesman gave me one price that I thought right away was fair (used the words in that ball park) then when we get in to the office his ball park was about $8,000 more than he said. Ended up being a big fight for reeling me in and went home and emailed a strongly worded letter to his manager. Then I dealt with him back and forth and was actually on my way out of town to buy another car when he called me to come back in. I ended up getting the car for a little bit less than originally quoted (the ball park quote)
So in the end I got it at a bit lower price than I thought was good but it was a fight.
My wifes was an even better deal but I was at the dealer ship at the end of December when they're really motivated to sell but we negotiated right down to me having them throw in custom $300 mats in place of the factory crap ones. They almost walked away over the mats until I showed them I was willing to walk away to. Guess they figured after 3 hours back and forth it was better for them to throw the mats in.
Yeah I imagine they hate seeing me coming as much as I hate them.
One thing they really hate is when I refuse to entertain the old "How much do you want your monthly payment to be?" and I redirect them to concentrating the bottom line price of the car. I tell them don't worry about what I can afford a month. When I know the price of the car is and interest rate its quite easy for me to figure out what the monthly payment will be based on how many years.


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## Jalexander (Dec 31, 2020)

You can purchase dealer invoice pricing online. The markup is surprisingly small. Last I checked, markup on a Civic was under $2k. That leaves little room for negotiation. These reports are updated based around manufacturer incentives that give the dealer more wiggle room. Also, remember the end of the month/quarter stuff where the dealer might be willing to sell an individual car at or even below cost because it pushes them into certain incentivized targets from the manufacturer.

There are lots of resources online to help you strategize. Also, with used cars there is far more wiggle room. I’ve bought my last two cars with the phone method and it works great. I decide what I want, research fair pricing and decide what I’m willing to pay. Then find any dealers with that model and start calling. I offer a one time deal, let them know I won’t be negotiating and that I’m buying the car today (or this week). If they say no, you say thank you and call the next one. Usually takes less than three phone calls. Once when I called out of town and got a yes, I found a CAA mechanic down the road who went and did a safety on for me too (it was a six month-old Acura from the dealer so I wasn’t too worried).

Also consider demos but know the difference between dealer and corporate demos.

Take a $28k Civic. A dealer demo was purchased at $26k invoice. Then the dealer uses it for a few months.If they sell it for $22k, they’re losing $6k.

A corporate demo was driven by someone at head office for a few months and sold off cheap to a dealer (say for $20k). If the dealer sells this for $22k, they’re making money. But it still comes with a new car warranty and new car financing and incentives.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

colchar said:


> So yeah, you can definitely negotiate.


Only within the dealer's parameters though. They won't lose money to sell you a car.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I sold cars for a few years back in the early 2000's. I was not very good at it - I was too honest. There's a lot of misconceptions that float around. Ask me a question and I'll give you an answer.

I'll say this - my Maggs is an amazing shopper. When we sit down with a salesperson these days he has my sympathy. The last guy was appealing to me as a "brother who knows how it works" to talk sense in to her. I just smiled and said "Your on your own chum". Maggs walked out the door over $32.00. The sales manager got the difference down to $20 and she grudgingly accepted. She still talks about how she left that $12 on the table.

I don't negotiate with my Maggs. It's an "Up on Cripple Creek" kinda thing 😊


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Here's how you can tell: sign up for a membership to http://www.carcostcanada.com I've got a membership and they give you the MSRP and the dealer wholesale.

Now, you can't expect a dealer to sell a vehicle to you at wholesale. They do need to make some money. The general rule is usually 3% is a fair deal for them. 

The margins depend on the vehicle. Some are marked up significantly, other's not so much. Last new vehicle I bought I was surprised to see the MSRP was only about 6% above the dealer cost. That isn't actually a whole lot of wiggle room on the price. I remember the sales manager telling me at the time that he's had customers argue with him because they think he's gouging them and that there's still thousands of dollars of room left to discount. He said he's even pulled out his invoice and shown it to the customer and they still don't believe him.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

some good info here.

my tactic is to either wait until they need to make room for next years models or buy in the slower months, like Jan/Feb. the easiest thing for me has been to just pit them against each other and be honest about it. find a window sticker for something I like, take a picture and send it to 3 or 4 salesfolk, tell them to find me something similar. discuss price as far as it will allow over email, I hate seeing anyone face to face unless I absolutely have to. 

just like everything else having to adapt and change with the times, so will car sales. adapt or die


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Personally for me it's not worth the stress involved to get the rock bottom lowest price. The last used car we bought, the price was in the average range. He offered me $500 off, I countered with free snow tires ($1000 value if I had to buy them) he agreed, done. Could I have gotten him down another $500, $1000 by playing super I'm walking out of here hardball? Probably but I just can't be bothered. Life is too short. Same as Kijiji. If I see something I want and the price is fair, I just pay the asking price.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I know that if you get up and walk away from a deal and leave the dealership, your cell phone will start ringing about 20 minutes later and not stop.

I think where they make their money is all that extra crap they try and sell you on while doing up the paper work. I don't take any of it. It makes them cry really big tears.

I have zero love for car salesmen btw.


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## nman (Sep 14, 2019)

Last two cars I bought, I went to dealer 1 and got their final price, then told them I would shop around and get back to them, even though it was a fair price. Went to dealer 2, found a great car, told the sales person that I had another deal lined up for 6K less gave him the dealership info, and if you take the sticker price down by 6K we have a deal right now, no BS. So I felt good for being honest, and got a brand new car for 6K off.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

allthumbs56 said:


> Only within the dealer's parameters though. They won't lose money to sell you a car.


I've seen it many times. One auto group in the city went into bankruptcy protection because of it at the beginning of covid.


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## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

The following is a description that I posted on a car forum back in 2009 when I bought a new Dodge Challenger R/T. I bought a membership at Carcost Canada and recommend others to do so as there is very valuable information that will help negotiate a fair deal. I have use the same tactics when helping negotiate fair prices for family members over the last several years using the approach that is listed below. Be patient and never walk in drooling over the vehicle you are interested in,... hold your cards close to your chest.
Carcost Canada: How It Works | CarCostCanada

















I paid $37,700 CAN out the door,... everything
included,taxes,freight etc..

It took 8 weeks of shopping for the best deal with 5 separate
dealerships before putting my order in to the factory in
Brampton,Ontario.The following will explain how I found out the
tricks of how to get the best deal,...but I would just like to say
that for a $30 membership at CarCost Canada it ultimately saved me
over $4,000.

With the above membership I was able to have access to the
Retail(MSRP) and Wholesale( Dealer Invoice,Dealer Factory,Dealer
Cost,they are all the same thing) price.

The Retail price was $36,395 and the Wholesale price was
$34,456,this included the freight at $1,300 and Federal Air
Conditioning Excise Tax at $100.

Also,a figure of $700 is for the Holdback amount which is used as a
deduction off of the wholesale price.The holdback is what the
dealership will get from the manufacturer on every vehicle they sell
for the company.

Now,the following is the formula to use to find out what figure the
buyer should start the negotiations with, anything less than that
figure is a bonus and most certainly can be realized.

2009 challenger R/T:

Wholesale Price: $34,456
Minus Holdback: -$700
------------
=$33,756(net dealer wholesale cost)
+$1,350.24(4% dealer profit/markup of the $33,756.Profit/Markup is
3%-6% on most cars.)
----------------
=$35,106.24
+$4,563.81(13% GST/PST sales tax)
--------------
=39,670.05

I was able to lower my cost by an additional $1,970 brining it to
the $37,700.It took a while to do but it is possible,...anyone can
do it,...beleive me when I say that I am not a negotiating
genius.You just have to walk sometimes just to let the sales person
know that they are not the only ones who sell that particular
vehicle you are interested in.

One other important point to consider is to never let the sales
person know if you intend to finance or pay cash.Just let them know
you will decide later,...after you have agreed on a final price,...
otherwise their starting figures will change dramatically!

I hope this helps in your quest for the best deal.

Cheers,

PS-I have also included a calculation for a 2009 Charger R/T that I
was looking at last year before I decided on the Challenger.The
formula differs as it includes the consumer incentives offered at
that particular time by Dodge.

2009 Charger R/T:
Wholesale price: $38,067
Minus Holdback -$700
-----------
=$37,367(net dealer wholesale cost)
+ $1,494.68(4% dealer profit/markup of the $37,367)
---------------
=$38,861.68
- $5,500.00(Consumer Cash Discount Incentive)
----------------
=$33,361.68
+ $4,337.01(13% GST/PST Sales Tax)
----------------
=$37,698.69
- $1,250.00(We'll Pay Your Way Program Incentive)
-----------------
Total $36,448.69

Also keep in mind that if you are a relative of an employee that
works at a manufacturing plant that you may qualify for the Employee
Pricing Program that is lower than the Dealers Cost.It will show up
on the bottom left hand corner of the Factory Invoice and must be
signed by the buyer as per company policy.The individual who
qualifies for the EP(employee pricing discount)must sign and has the
right to see the factory invoice with the stated amount.
The first person who is currently looking for a new vehicle and sends me a PM with the model and options they are interested in I will run that information through my Carcost Canada account and post it free of charge to give you an idea of what the stealer-ship pays for it wholesale.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Is it just a given that when someone looks to buy a new vehicle it's to try and grind down to the lowest price?

Is this worth one's time always?

Curious because the last couple of vehicles we purchased there was very little haggling and we paid what we felt was fair and had a decent enough experience with no drama.

With some makes too there is no negotiating.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Guncho said:


> Personally for me it's not worth the stress involved to get the rock bottom lowest price.


No, but getting a good price is worth the effort. Had I wanted to rock bottom price I would have gone back to Salesperson A again after dealing with Salesperson B.




> I countered with free snow tires ($1000 value if I had to buy them) he agreed, done. C


I'm still kind of pissed off at myself that I didn't negotiate for a set of snows as I had to buy them a couple of months later.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Midnight Rider said:


> View attachment 352650
> 
> 
> View attachment 352654



That is where the neighbor who gave me his retiree discount worked.

It is about 3km from my place and I drove by it earlier today.






> One other important point to consider is to never let the sales
> person know if you intend to finance or pay cash.Just let them know
> you will decide later,...after you have agreed on a final price,...
> otherwise their starting figures will change dramatically!


My understanding is that they are willing to deal more if they think you are financing because they figure they'll make money on the financing end. I usually tell them I'm financing, but we can deal with that after we've reached a final price, then once we have I tell them that I am paying cash.


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## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

LanceT said:


> Is it just a given that when someone looks to buy a new vehicle it's to try and grind down to the lowest price?
> 
> Is this worth one's time always?
> 
> ...


I look at it as,... nothing ventured,... nothing gained. I enjoy the dance,... it's a great one on one competition.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Midnight Rider said:


> I look at it as,... nothing ventured,... nothing gained. I enjoy the dance,... it's a great one on one competition.



And saving a couple of grand is always worthwhile. I earned that money, better that it be in my possession than theirs.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

colchar said:


> Yeah you can still haggle.
> 
> I bought a Cherokee in October 2019 and haggled then. I was going back and forth between two dealerships, playing them off against each other. When it came time to do finalize a deal, Salesperson A wanted me to come back to her with the deal worked out with Salesperson B on the promise that she would beat it. I had info on the dealer cost of the car from a neighbor who is a Chrysler retiree, and who was also letting me use his employee/retiree discount (I hadn't told the salespeople that).
> 
> ...


I had a similar experience with real estate agents when i was selling my rental property...a guy I had used before was similar to your Salesperson A...he got undercut by another guy, whom I kind of liked better. "A" came back and wanted to counter "for gratitude for my loyalty".
I said if he really valued my loyalty he would have come in with his best price from the start. I went with the 2nd guy.


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## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

Here's some additional information on how the Employee pricing works for Chrysler,... other manufacturers may vary.
Also included some pics of a Carcost Canada search I did in 2018 before I bought a Jeep Cherokee Trialhawk 4x4. This will clearly show what information you have access to.


























*Chrysler Canada Employee Pricing Overview*
Employee Pricing enables you - the Chrysler Canada Employee, Retiree or eligible family member to purchase or lease virtually any 2007, 2008 or 2009 Chrysler, Jeep or Dodge vehicle at Dealer Cost!

This program also ensures simplicity as you must initial the Dealer Invoice indicating that you have received the Employee Price. The price is visible on the Dealer Invoice as 'EP', and it includes Freight and Air Tax. This creates a 'no haggle' buying experience for every Chrysler Canada employee / retiree.
*2008 Dodge Ram 1500 Quad Cab SXT 4x4 HEMI (26B) - Sample Only *

Purchase​MSRP$39,775​+ Freight & Air Tax$1,450​- EP Discount-$3,950​- Consumer Cash Discount-$10,500​- ERBONUS-$2,600​- 'We'll Pay Your Way' Rebate*-$1,250​(Total discount)($18,300)​Employee Price$23,069​
_*Includes 'Take a Free Ride' Bonus Cash Rebate Alternative of $1,250 ($1,106 used in calculations)
See Dealer for Details. Price includes Freight & Air Tax, but excludes all other Taxes & Admin. _


*What is Employee Pricing?*

It's pricing that is equal to Dealer Cost
You have six (6) control numbers you can use yourself or provide to eligible family members within a calendar year
There is simply no better deal available! You initial the invoice at the dealership ensuring you have received these special savings. There is no negotiation required to obtain these savings!
It's combinable with all other retail offers presently available, including Delivery Allowance and Finance / Lease rates as low as 0% and the Employee Bonus Cash!
As a Chrysler Canada Employee, Retiree or eligible Family Member, you are also entitled to exclusive EP Bonus Cash savings not available to the general public! This represents additional savings of up to $2,500 over and above all other offers! These Bonus Cash offers vary each month, so please visit our EP Bonus Cash section to learn more.

As an active, full-time Chrysler Canada Employee (CAW or Salary) with more than one year of seniority, you are also entitled to the CAW-negotiated $2,000 EBONUS! Visit the EBONUS section to learn more about this great savings opportunity.

Employee Pricing, EP Bonus Cash and EBONUS are in addition to all other retail incentives presently available in the market. This means that you can combine the Employee Pricing with 0% Finance or Lease Rates, Delivery Allowance, Bonus Cash, Lease Pull-Ahead, Targeted Direct Mailings and much more.*

*There simply is no better deal available!
Chrysler Canada Employee Pricing StepsPRINT*
It's very simple to take advantage of this special offer. Just follow the steps below:

You will need:
Your Employee / Retiree Master Number
Your Employee / Retiree Date of Birth

Call the automated New Vehicle Purchase Hotline at *1-866-785-8783*
Follow the prompts to generate a Control Number
Press 1 for English; 2 for French
Press 1 for Employee Purchase
Continue to follow the prompts

Write down the Employee Purchase Control Number
This control number is to be presented to a Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge retailer in Canada to receive the Employee Pricing on the purchase or lease of an eligible new vehicle
If you have any questions about this offer, please call the Chrysler Canada Customer Service line at 1-800-465-2001 (English) or 1-800-387-9983 (French) and identify yourself as a Chrysler Canada Employee / Retiree.

*Chrysler Canada Affiliate Employee Pricing Details
Offer*

Purchase or Lease an eligible Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge vehicle at Dealer Cost (Dealer Invoice less holdback)
The purchase or lease price of any vehicle purchased or leased under this Program is called the "Employee Purchase" price. It is printed on the factory invoice and is identified with "EP," regardless if sold from dealer's stock or specified orders. The customer has the right to see the factory invoice and verify the "EP" price.
EP price is calculated with destination charges and A/C tax included
Dealers are allowed to charge an Administration Fee, subject to local and provincial regulations
*Program Period*

Eligible vehicles must be delivered between January 3rd, 2008 - January 2nd, 2009
Vehicles must be delivered by a Chrysler Canada retailer
*Eligible Participants*

All participants must be Canadian residents
Chrysler Canada Full-Time Permanent Employees
With a minimum of 90 days service
On Leave of Absence
On Layoff for less than one year
Of the C.A.W. and/or their Regional Offices

Chrysler Canada Retirees
Under a regular pension plan or retirement grow-in program
Of the C.A.W. and/or their Regional Offices

Eligible Family Members of Chrysler Canada Employees / Retirees as listed below:
Spouses & Surviving Spouses
Parents, Parents-in-law & Stepparents
Son / Daughter, Son/Daughter-in-law & Stepchildren
Brothers & Sisters, Brothers/Sisters-in-law, Half-brothers/sisters
Grandchildren
Stepchildren
Grandparents

Note: Employee Pricing & EP Bonus Cash is not transferable to friends
*Eligible Control Numbers*

Each Employee / Retiree / Family Member is able to use a *maximum of six (6) Control Numbers* during the program period (January 3rd, 2008 - January 2nd, 2009)
These control numbers may all be used by any combination of Employee/Retiree and Eligible Family Member
*Eligible Vehicles*

All 2007, 2008 and 2009 Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge vehicles are eligible, excluding only Dodge Sprinter and Dodge Challenger
This means that everything from a 2008 Dodge Viper SRT10 with a 600 hp V10, a Dodge Charger SRT8 with a 425 hp HEMI V8, a 2008 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited, a Jeep Grand Cherokee Diesel, a Jeep Patriot 4x4 and a 2008 Chrysler Town & Country are all eligible.
*What is this Program Combinable With*

Chrysler Canada Employee Pricing (0890) is combinable with all current retail programs in effect, including but not limited to:
Special Finance & Lease Rates as low as 0%*
Delivery Allowance*
Finance Cash or Lease Cash*
EP Bonus Cash (0857)*
EBONUS*
Lease Pull-Ahead or Lease Accelerator*
Targeted Direct Mailings, Coupons, Certificates*
Consumer Cash Discount
*Rules & Provisions *

The Employee/Retiree New Vehicle Purchase/Lease Program ("Program") is made available by Chrysler Canada Inc. to encourage its eligible employees, retirees and their family members of Chrysler Canada Inc. to drive new Chrysler products.
Vehicles may be purchased or leased from participating authorized Chrysler, Jeep®, Dodge Dealers in Canada.
Chrysler Canada reserves the right to modify or discontinue the program at any time without notice and retains discretionary authority to interpret the Rules and Provisions of the Program.
If the eligible employee, retiree or surviving spouse is deceased, the eligibility ceases.
*Who is Not Eligible*

Temporary employees, contract workers, service agreement workers, part-time employees, terminated employees and former employees eligible for, or receiving, deferred vested pension benefits under a Chrysler-sponsored pension plan.
Nieces, nephews, cousins, aunts, uncles, neighbours and friends.
Upon the death of an Employee or Retiree, all Eligible Family Members except the Employee or Retiree's Surviving Spouse, Sons, Daughters, Stepsons and Stepdaughters.
Upon the death of the Employee or Retiree's Surviving Spouse, all Eligible Family Members.
All other individuals determined to be ineligible to participate in the Program at the discretion of Chrysler.
*Conditions*

Employees may not sell or receive any form of benefit/compensation for providing a Control Number or information needed to obtain a control number.
Employees and their families should never solicit gifts or accept other personal benefits from Chrysler Suppliers, Dealers or other customers.
Only provide the Program Control Numbers when you have had contact with a specific customer who will benefit from the Program and you have determined that the customer is eligible to participate.
Program Control Numbers may only be provided directly to potential customers, not to dealers or other third parties.
All information provided by an Employee, Retiree or Eligible Family Member in connection with the purchase or lease of a new vehicle must be accurate.
Purchased vehicles must be licenced and titled in the name of the Employee, Retiree or Eligible Family Member. (Joint signing is allowed)
Eligible persons purchasing a vehicle must:
(1) Take delivery of the purchased vehicle.
(2) Maintain title to the vehicle in their name
for a minimum of six months from the date of delivery.
Eligible persons leasing a vehicle must possess the vehicle for a minimum of one year.
Only retail consumer incentive programs available on a vehicle at the time of vehicle order or delivery apply, unless specifically excluded.
A Control Number assigned under the Program is only valid during the calendar year in which it is issued.
*Non-Compliance*

In the event of any non-compliance with the Program Rules and Provisions:

The Employee, Retiree and Surviving Spouse of the Employee or Retiree voluntarily authorize Chrysler to recover any sales fees paid or owing by Chrysler to a dealer from wages, pension or other monies in such amounts and with such frequency as is permitted by law.
There are significant potential penalties in the event of non-compliance with Program Rules and Provisions, up to and including suspension from Program participation, reimbursement of the discounts or fees, and/or discharge from employment.



*Offers may change at any time and may not be available on all vehicles or model years. Excludes Fleet Programs in effect. See your Chrysler, Jeep, Dodge Retailer for full details. Refer to your official Employee / Retiree New Vehicle Purchase / Lease Program Guide for full details and restrictions.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Midnight Rider said:


> I look at it as,... nothing ventured,... nothing gained. I enjoy the dance,... it's a great one on one competition.


Ya I get that, depending on what you are interested in buying, there may not be a dance. Some makes have no negotiation. I don't mean typical Chevy, Dodge, Ford either.


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## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

LanceT said:


> Ya I get that, depending on what you are interested in buying, there may not be a dance. Some makes have no negotiation. I don't mean typical Chevy, Dodge, Ford either.


Yes, I fully understand that. I was looking to buy a 2018 Dodge Challenger Demon and there was no wiggle room at all as Chrysler/Dodge only set up to run them for that one year,... I really needed that 840 HP too,... for the track of course. I guess I'll settle for the Challenger Hellcat with a measly 707 HP,


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Midnight Rider said:


> Here's some additional information on how the Employee pricing works for Chrysler,... other manufacturers may vary.
> Also included some pics of a Carcost Canada search I did in 2018 before I bought a Jeep Cherokee Trialhawk 4x4. This will clearly show what information you have access to.


I bought a 2019 Cherokee Sport but got the Upland edition. It has many of the same features as the Trailhawk but costs less (I didn't get leather seats, sunroof, or tow hitch).





> View attachment 352664
> 
> View attachment 352665
> 
> ...


My best friend's Dad also worked at Chrysler. When buying a new vehicle he would haggle for shit to be thrown in for free (upgraded stereo, snow tires, etc.) and only when they were about to sign would he say "oh by the way, I'm a Chrysler employee so get the discount".

Apparently they've clamped down a bit because employees were giving those numbers to everybody, and some were selling access to theirs. My neighbor said I could use his anytime I wanted (our families have been neighbors for decades) but he had to go into the dealership to sign stuff, etc. because they had clamped down.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Diablo said:


> I had a similar experience with real estate agents when i was selling my rental property...a guy I had used before was similar to your Salesperson A...he got undercut by another guy, whom I kind of liked better. "A" came back and wanted to counter "for gratitude for my loyalty".
> I said if he really valued my loyalty he would have come in with his best price from the start. I went with the 2nd guy.



I went in specifically looking at 2019 Cherokees, in specific trim levels. She immediately tried to sell me on a 2020 Trailhawk (as mentioned above, mine is a basically a Trailhawk minus a couple of features and for a lower price) and kept trying to tell me they couldn't get 2019s (this was in October 2019). She was full of shit and I knew it because my neighbor could check through Chrysler every vehicle available in the province. When I told the other guy what I was after, he said "let me check the inventory to see what we have plus what we can get elsewhere". So I basically just used her to play off against the other guy, and had little intention of buying from her.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Seems worth noting that most people cant pay cash for a new car, no?


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Budda said:


> Seems worth noting that most people cant pay cash for a new car, no?


Dealers and manufacturers have known that since forever. I did not know just how early!






Car Loan | Encyclopedia.com


Car LoanWhat It MeansA car loan (also known as an automobile loan, or auto loan) is a sum of money a consumer borrows in order to purchase a car. Generally speaking a loan is an amount of money that is lent to an individual, a business, or another entity. The party that lends the money is known...




www.encyclopedia.com





"The car loan officially originated in 1919, when the General Motors Corporation (an automobile manufacturer founded in 1908 in Flint, Michigan) established the General Motors Acceptance Corporation, or GMAC. GMAC arose in response to the growing demand for automobiles among American consumers after World War I. In 1919 GMAC established offices in five North American cities; a year later it opened its first office in Great Britain. As the car loan business expanded, other automobile manufacturers began to develop their own financing divisions. One of the most prominent was the Ford Motor Credit Company, founded in 1923. Although car loans were available most American consumers during the first half of the twentieth century paid cash for their automobiles."


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

@keto whoa.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Budda said:


> Seems worth noting that most people cant pay cash for a new car, no?


However, if you’ve pre-arranged financing from your bank or another source, as far as the dealer is concerned, you’re paying cash.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

JBFairthorne said:


> However, if you’ve pre-arranged financing from your bank or another source, as far as the dealer is concerned, you’re paying cash.


True.


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## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

Budda said:


> Seems worth noting that most people cant pay cash for a new car, no?


Sure anyone can pay cash,... just be diligent and start putting a little away starting,..................Now! Then, the day you buy your first vehicle by paying cash,....start saving again the minute you leave the dealership, Complete the cycle and rinse every 5 to 8 years depending on cash flow. Remember, you don't always have to buy new,... there are tons of great used vehicles sitting on auto lots everywhere. Many people trade their vehicles in for a new one every 5 years with low mileage.

For example, in 2016 I helped my mother purchase a used 2016 Chrysler 200C. The dealership had 4 of these used vehicles that were part of a rental car fleet. I test drove all four and picked the one that had the lowest kilometres,...13, 400km. The car was built on May 20, 2016 and went into service as a rental car on May 31,2016. My mother bought the car on November 18, 2016,... so only 6 months old. As part of the purchase agreement I had the dealership agree to replace a faulty right front headlight and turn down the front rotors for no charge under the existing factory warranty.
The 2016 Chrysler 200C with the optional 6 cylinder engine retailed for $38,590 + $5,016.70HST = $43,606.70. My mother purchased the car for $26,980.67 all in,... a savings of $16,626.03. Not bad for a 6 month old vehicle with 13,400km on it at time of purchase,...almost 5 years later the car only has 49,400km and has never had any issues. Just regular oil change and tire rotation maintenance. Those deals are everywhere out there if can find one before they sell off. Those four vehicles the dealership had all sold in less than a week. Sometime you will see them advertise these vehicles on their websites or local paper.

Also, for those who have or are going to purchase a Chrysler, Dodge or Jeep and want to review and download the original factory build sheet go to the following website and enter the vehicle V.I.N. (Vehicle Identification Number).
Chrysler Build Sheets: Build Sheet Database

































BUILD SHEET
Equipment Listing
Vehicle Description 2016 CHRYSLER 200C

200C Decor Group,Monotone Paint,160 Amp Alternator,730 Amp Maintenance Free Batter,Battery Run Down Protection
Brake Assist,Electronic Stability Control,Traction Control,Highline Door Trim Panel,6-Way Power Passenger Seat
2-Way Reactive Front Seat Headrests,60/40 Rear Seat w/Trunk Pass-Thru,Child Seat Anchor System-LATCH Ready
Drvr Inflatable Knee-Bolster Air Bag,Advanced Multistage Front Air Bags,Pass Inflatable Knee-Bolster Air Bag
Passenger Height Adjuster Seat,Supplemental Frt Seat Side Air Bags,Supp. Side Curtain Frt/Rr Air Bags
4 Cargo Tie Down Loops,Decklid Liner,Three Rear Seat Head Restraints,Rear Adjustable Headrests

STANDARD EQUIPMENT

Rr Seat Armrest w/Storage Cupholder,Front Seat Back Map Pockets,Passenger Assist Handles,Overhead Console w/Sunglass Holder,Full Length Flr Console w/Storage,Front Center Sliding Armrest,Engine Dress Up Cover
Solar Control Glass,Laminated Acoustic Front Door Glass,Tinted Acoustic Windshield Glass,Rear Window Defroster
Sun Visors w/Illum Vanity Mirrors,RR View Auto Dim Mirror w/Microphone,Power Heated Fold-Away Mirrors
Passive Entry Driver, Pass & Trunk,Keyless Entry with Panic Alarm,Engine Immobilizer,Keyless Enter 'n Go
Air Cond ATC w/Dual Zone Control,Prem 7" Driver Info Display Cluster,280 KPH Primary Speedometer,Compass Gauge
Tachometer,Outside Temperature Gauge,Var Intermittent Windshield Wipers,Dual Note Electric Horns,12V Outlet on Pass Side Lwr Console,Lit / Locking Glove Box,Inside Emergency Trunk Lid Release,Power Accessory Delay
Speed Sensitive Power Locks,Heated Front Seats,Power 8-Way Driver Seat,Pwr Front Windows, 1-Touch,Up & Down
Front Passenger Seat Belt Alert,LED Taillamps,Vehicle Information Center,Front O/Head Incandescent Map Lamps
Footwell Courtesy Lamp,Front Door Map Pocket LED Lamps,Ambient LED Interior Lighting,Trunk Lamp,Headlamp Off Time Delay,Bi-Funct Halogen Proj H/Lmp w/ LEDs,Automatic Headlamps,Daytime Running Headlamps, Low Beam
Front Fog Lamps,Security Alarm,200C Body Colored Fascias,Front License Plate Bracket,Active Grille Shutters,Dark Gray Grille,Bright Door Handles,Lower Bodyside Cladding,Satin Interior Door Handles,Chrysler Badge,200C Badge
15.8 Gallons Fuel Tank,Engine Block Heater,Speed Control,Heated Steering Wheel,Billet Silver Metallic Clear Coat
Uconnect 3C with 8.4" DisplayI,Integrated Window Antenna,Steering Wheel Mounted Audio Ctrls,ECO Feedback Display,SiriusXM Satellite Radio,Audio Jack Input for Mobile Devices,Remote USB Port,Electric Power Steering
Leather Wrapped Steering Wheel,Ride & Handling Suspension,Tilt/Telescope Steering Column,Compact Spare Tire
ParkView Rear Back-up Camera,Remote Start System,Occupant Classification System,Coat Hooks,Electric Park Brake
Universal Garage Door Opener,Tire Pressure Monitoring Display, A/C and Heat Ducts,Electronic Shift,Body Aero Enablers,Integrated Center Stack Parts Module,Steering Column Cover Parts Module,Rear Brake & Knuckle Parts Module,Center Console Parts Module,Front Fascias Parts Module,Brake & Knuckle Parts Module,Headliner Parts Module,Seat Parts Module,Instrument Panel Parts Module,Door Parts Module,Front End Parts Module,Front Suspension Parts Module,Rear Suspension Parts Module,Power Train Parts Module,Tire & Wheel Parts Module,Front Suspension Damper Parts Module,Rear Suspension Damper Parts Module,Build To Canada Mkt. Specifications,Canada Fleet,Zone 29-Canada-Fleet/Lease,UF/5780 Vehicle Family,Left Hand Drive (LHD),2016 Vehicle Specifications,Front Wheel Drive (FWD),Vehicle Order Tracking,Canada Specifications Label,Ontario Province Code,Canada Country Code,Leather Trimmed Bucket Seats Black.

OPTIONAL EQUIPMENT

Sun/Sound Group,Anti-Lock 4-Wheel-Disc Brakes (HD),Front Floor Mats,Rear Floor Mats,Leather Seat Cushion,9-Spd 9HP48 Auto Transmission,3.251 Final Drive Ratio,3.6L V6 24V VVT Engine,Dual-Pane Panoramic Sunroof,12V Aux Power Outlet in Console,NAV-Capable! See Dealer for Details,GPS Antenna Input,Power 4-Way Driver Lumbar Adjust,ECO Driving Feedback Display,Ext. Mirrors w/Supplemental Signals,Heated Exterior Mirrors,Accessory Switch Bank,Rear Fascia Chrome Appliques,Lower Grille Chrome Surround,Lower Mesh Grille, Upr Grille & H/Lamp Bezels,Lower Grille Gloss Black Accents,Flex Fuel Badge,50 State Emissions,Dual Integrated Exhaust Tips,Engine Oil Cooler,Billet Silver Metallic Clear Coat,ll Radio Equipped Vehicles,9 Amplified Speakers w/Subwoofer,506 Watt Amplifier,8.4" Touchscreen Display,Harman Radio Manufacturer,All VP3 Radios,235/40R19XL BSW All Season Tires,Nexen Brand Tires,All Aluminum Wheels,19X8.0 Gray/Polished Spoke Alum Wheels,Steering Wheel Mounted Shift Control,Front/Rear Climate Control Outlets,Flex Fuel Vehicle,English/USA Language,ntegrated Voice Command w/Bluetooth,Underbody Aerodynamic Treatment,Humidity Sensor,For More Info, Call 888-539-7474,SiriusXM Radio Service,3 Additional Gallons of Gas,Spring - Left Front,Spring - Left Rear,Spring - Right Front,Spring - Right Rear,GVW Rating - 4737#,FAM: UF TRACKING: 50825S38 MY:2016,Customer Preferred Package 2DN,Customer Preferred Package 26N,CAN-AM Warranty,Price Allowance Tracking,Federal A/C Excise Tax,Ontario Tire Surcharge,Exempt From Holdback,Sold Vehicle,Fleet Daily Rental Sale,Fleet Option Edition,Special Scheduling Condition VII,Canadian Priority Vehicle Tracking,ClC Lease Car - Direct Leasing,Avis Rent-A-Car (Canada),PSP Tracking,Canada Region Group,NAFTA Region


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## Gene Machine (Sep 22, 2007)

SG-Rocker said:


> Having worked at dealerships for a number of years, a number of years ago as a mechanic, I've observed a couple of tips on getting a good deal.
> ...
> Case Study.
> ...
> 3 days later I get a call, it was the salesman calling to take me up on my offer. I told him I was ready to pull the trigger on a truck across town. He asked what it would take to get me to come in and I said a spray in bed liner and WeatherTech floor liners (~$1200 value). Two hours later I got a call to sign the papers. I also got 0% financing and a $200 in store credit for parts which I used towards a tonneau cover.


You win.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

keto said:


> No. It's just that the 'comeback with a problem' rate is so low it's ridiculous. Typically paint problems would be factory warranty anyways. Rust, I'm sure out east it's a different animal, but out in the west it's not an issue almost ever, in the timeline that the rustproofing guarantee would cover.


Not sure what the rustproofing guarantee timeline is but you see a lot of trucks out here like this. 








and worse. Cars too. All makes, all ages.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> Not sure what the rustproofing guarantee timeline is but you see a lot of trucks out here like this.
> View attachment 353454
> 
> and worse. Cars too. All makes, all ages.


And the warranties usually cover only "rust through". Nothing wrong with that wheel well. 😕


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> And the warranties usually cover only "rust through". Nothing wrong with that wheel well. 😕


True but you see worse.








Won't take too long before the FX4 looks the same.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> True but you see worse.
> View attachment 353489
> 
> Won't take too long before the FX4 looks the same.


But how old are they? 2 things:
-warranty of rustproofing often limited to the original purchaser
-if original owner still has it (i dunno the year on those 2 trucks, 2000?) 20 years later, the company offered the warranty very often no longer around. Of course, a very high % of cars/trucks have changed hands by then, I would guess a massive majority.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Electraglide said:


> Not sure what the rustproofing guarantee timeline is but you see a lot of trucks out here like this.
> View attachment 353454
> 
> and worse. Cars too. All makes, all ages.


youre exaggerating, not nearly as many like that as you would have us believe


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> True but you see worse.
> View attachment 353489
> 
> Won't take too long before the FX4 looks the same.


Still amazes me to see a rusted chrome bumper - that just shouldn't happen unless there's something wrong with the original materials in the first place.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> Still amazes me to see a rusted chrome bumper - that just shouldn't happen unless there's something wrong with the original materials in the first place.


plating isn’t all that thick, one ding and the area around starts to lift, rust spreads underneath.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

keto said:


> plating isn’t all that thick, one ding and the area around starts to lift, rust spreads underneath.


I suppose so - thinner coating, poorer bonding mixed with recycled steel and a minor bump. 

The chrome on my 72' B is original. A bit "smokey/swirly" finish - but no rust


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

vadsy said:


> youre exaggerating, not nearly as many like that as you would have us believe


What's a lot AH? 20 or so in a drive around a city? Depending on where you are you will probably see 'a lot' more.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

so @traynor_garnet what happened?


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> What's a lot AH? 20 or so in a drive around a city? Depending on where you are you will probably see 'a lot' more.


Maybe you guys could hook up and go for a drive together to count 😊


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

keto said:


> so @traynor_garnet what happened?



Still doing the dance! I would like to thank everyone here for chipping in. It’s been great to hear insiders, personal experiences, successful and failed strategies. 

I’m going to see if I can get a few dealers working against each other and see who offers the best deal. I’ll report back in the coming week/s. 

Thanks again everyone.

TG


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## VHTO (Feb 19, 2016)

@Midnight Rider thumbs up on your Challenger license plate. Kowalski would approve,


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Electraglide said:


> What's a lot AH? 20 or so in a drive around a city? Depending on where you are you will probably see 'a lot' more.


drove from Edmonton to Calgary today, one rusted wheel well in the highway, one in Calgary. Counted like a thousand cars



allthumbs56 said:


> Maybe you guys could hook up and go for a drive together to count 😊


Covid. I’m probably a carrier and Electric is frail. It would be irresponsible


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> Maybe you guys could hook up and go for a drive together to count 😊


Nah, he does't dumb things like counting cars.....and probably texting to keep count.....while driving as a carrier. Talk about irresponsible.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Electraglide said:


> Nah, he does't dumb things like counting cars.....and probably texting to keep count.....while driving as a carrier. Talk about irresponsible.


saw one in Canmore. I'll report further once in BC


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Time for an update. I just bought the car!

Thanks so much to everyone who helped out. I think I did OK. I emailed a few of the closest dealers and made them compete for my business. I probably could’ve taken it one step further but to be honest at this point I was just tired of the dance.

I managed to negotiate the following: winter floor mats, an extra $500 on our trade-in, $3000 off the initial price, 20 inch winter tires on their own rims, a factory installed trailer hitch.

Everything I read online said to really go over the final paperwork before signing off. It suggested that there is always a mistake and “coincidentally” the mistake always works to the dealer's favor. Surprise surprise, that’s exactly what happened when I went over the final offer! Somehow, $1000 in savings wasn’t deducted from the price . “Oops, our bad”. 🙄👎

Thanks again everyone for chipping in. Much appreciated.
TG


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