# Guitars from China / thumbs up or down?



## grooveyard (Dec 3, 2012)

My friend Michael, a highly talented full time musician, just purchased a copy guitar from the Aliexpress website - for about 10 percent of the 'real' guitar's price - he claims it feels and sounds wonderful, and just may sell his 'real' guitar now...I'm wondering if there is any experience here with the Chinese-made guitars - or is there any bad vibe around supporting the off-shore copy-cats?

Now that I'm in my sixties I find myself looking at the instruments that were influential in my early years as a player - I recently acquired an 'Eastwood' guitar that is a Mosrite copy (remember The Ventures?)- as well I have an inexpensive copy of a guitar that looks like Jerry Garcia's "Tiger"

Lately i've been looking at George Harrison's first Gretsch duo-jet, and sure enough there is a copy available from China. 

It's not like (in my case) the real Gretsch company is loosing a sale - I could never afford the real one these days (planning on retiring soon!) ...plus I do have some 'real' guitars anyway -( Les Paul, Strat, Firebird, Tele )...so I'm just wondering what experience others may have had buying these kind of guitars.

Thanks,
Jim


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

I finally broke down and bought my first Chinese made guitar at 70. It's a reissue (with some changes) of the the old Ibanez AR series. I've also got a vintage 83 Ibanez Artist and I'm impressed to no end with this new Chinese one. I think just like here it depends on who in China makes the guitar but I will say that this one is a winner for sure.

AR 325


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

I wouldn't buy some no name copy from China but a Yamaha made in China sure.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

Guncho said:


> I wouldn't buy some no name copy from China but a Yamaha made in China sure.


+1


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

I had a friend who scoured the city for the perfect acoustic. He was shocked to find out he bought a chinese guitar. He shrugged it off. "It was the one I liked."


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

Buying a knockoff wouldn't really bother me but personally I couldn't buy one that has Gibson, Fender, etc on the headstock.


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## Avro Arrow (Dec 31, 2017)

My Washburn Strat is made in China and it's actually a great guitar. Nice tones and extremely easy to play. Its neck is maple with a rosewood fretboard but the body is poplar so the thing is so light that I can hold it by the base with one hand and wave it around. I couldn't do that with my Godin.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

grooveyard said:


> or is there any bad vibe around supporting the off-shore copy-cats?






grooveyard said:


> Lately i've been looking at George Harrison's first Gretsch duo-jet, and sure enough there is a copy available from China.
> 
> It's not like (in my case) the real Gretsch company is loosing a sale - I could never afford the real one these days (planning on retiring soon!) ...plus I do have some 'real' guitars anyway -( Les Paul, Strat, Firebird, Tele )...so I'm just wondering what experience others may have had buying these kind of guitars.
> 
> ...


As long as there is no copywrite/trademark infringement I don't have any issues with where it is made.
It's not that Gretsch is losing a sale,it's the fact that the guitar with Gretsch on the headstock is built to deceive.
They will almost inevitably find there way into the used marketplace.
The less of those type of guitars in the country the better.

Sites like Aliexpress will pretty much put anything you want on the headstock IIRC,so put something personal on it.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Theres no name chinese and then theres the beginner/budget lines from established companies.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

I spent some time with a knockoff Ricky 12 string last week. It played and sounded just as good as I would expect from an Epiphone. It was obvious to a trained eye that it wasn't a big dollar Ricky, but it was sufficiently good. 

A buddy of mine ordered it from Ali because he needed it for two songs in their live set, and he couldn't justify a real one for the light use it gets.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I have no problem with goods made in China. As long as they are labelled as such. I don't like when they infringe upon trademarked logo's. If you're going to build something, even if it is a knock off, put your name or original logo on it and be upfront about what you are selling.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

What Jim said.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Eastman make good instruments in China.

I have a Sigma DR28V which is an HD28V copy and made in China. Martin used to own the Sigma name in the 70s.

Anyway, the Sigma cost a little more than what the tax would be on an HD28V. I know this because I also have and HD28V.

I got the Sigma guitar because it approximates the playability and sound of a Martin but if I go to a field party and accidentally back my truck over the guitar - well I ain’t gonna be out that much.

I tried lottsa different guitars while looking for a good but less expensive guitar. The Sigma is closer to my Martin guitars than the cheap line Martins that I tried and it was half the price.

If the Sigma was the only guitar that I had I really couldn’t complain although I probably would anyway.

I liked the sound of the Eastman dreads that were about a grand but didn’t like the necks on them for some reason. They had their own sound which was very nice but not like a Martin sound.

Didn’t like any of the cheap Martins which weren’t exactly cheap at 12 to 15 hundred and some of them had the plastic fretboard which feels odd to me.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i had the exact same guitar as beach bum, and it was a really good guitar. the pickups were surprising. i liked them alot, they were very articulate. 
as for the chinese fakes, i would probably own one if i could play one in person, and it was a good guitar. i just don't have the guts to take a chance and order a new one. 
from what i have heard from others, and what i have read on some of their forums, you can get pretty decent quality if you are willing to spend a little more. also, i have read several complaints of bridges not properly aligned with the neck. all the threads i read, the company replaced those guitars. still, it meant prolonging the wait for the guitar, in the end. if i was going to do something like that, just my opinion, i would custom build a rondo, or build a warmoth guitar.


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

Mooh said:


> What Jim said.


Yep, they’re both right.
Hey, my Squier Vibes are MIC, both awesome.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

I just jumped ship and bought a Epi. Les Paul Standard plus top pro off a friend. Decent player. You would have to be into the Gibby studio price range to get a comparable Gibson for playability.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

Not sure about no name guitars but I do have a couple of MIC guitars. I have an Ibanez PM35 NT and an Epiphone es339 with p90s, Both are excellent guitars. The quality of some of the Chinese made guitars have come a long way. It won't be long before they catch up to Japan and Korea.


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## Gene Machine (Sep 22, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I have no problem with goods made in China. As long as they are labelled as such. I don't like when they infringe upon trademarked logo's. If you're going to build something, even if it is a knock off, put your name or original logo on it and be upfront about what you are selling.


+1

I played a few fake Chinese Gibson’s a.k.a. Chibson, and the build quality is low. Not to mention the illegality. You can’t trust a crook, and that’s what they are. Stay away. 

Ibanez, Epiphone, etc. All have great guitars made in China. Even used, they are good deals and there is no shame in a Chinese made guitar, as long as it’s not a fake.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Factories around the world all function pretty much the same. Give the customer what he wants, no more (or you lose money), no less (or you lose customers). You build to the customers specs. 

So if AliExpress gives you a set of plans with specs, that is what you build, it doesn't matter if it is good or bad, that is not your call. If Epiphone gives you the same plans with better specs, then that is what you go by. In fact, it works fantastic when you have the same product going to multiple customers with different specs because then the runs can be sorted/graded while in process. You set up for your high spec customer and, while running, those that fall outside their parameters, get assigned to where they fit other customers, then, when the high spec customer's order is filled, you just run off what you need for the rest (it's a lot cheaper to just keep running as is than to make adjustments to make shitter parts). In my factory life we always had 2 bins at the end of the line, one OEM and one Aftermarket. Some of the aftermarket parts didn't meet OEM specs, but most of them still fall well into the range spec'd by OEM because the line just keeps running until the orders are met.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Yeah, my MIC Squier CVC is pretty sweet straight out of the box as well. They aren't exactly "super cheap" neither, apart from some of the small elecronics that can easily be replaced. The biggest surprise for me with that one is the tuning pegs. They're fantastic. Like @Budda stated, a lower line/beginner guitar made by an established company. I'm not sure how much "Made in America" actually means any more in many cases.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> i had the exact same guitar as beach bum, and it was a really good guitar. the pickups were surprising. i liked them alot, they were very articulate.
> as for the chinese fakes, i would probably own one if i could play one in person, and it was a good guitar. i just don't have the guts to take a chance and order a new one.
> from what i have heard from others, and what i have read on some of their forums, you can get pretty decent quality if you are willing to spend a little more. also, i have read several complaints of bridges not properly aligned with the neck. all the threads i read, the company replaced those guitars. still, it meant prolonging the wait for the guitar, in the end. * if i was going to do something like that, just my opinion, i would custom build a rondo, or build a warmoth guitar.*


I have thought about getting a guitar from Aliexpress but I reasoned, why do that when you can get one from Rondo for the same price or less that has the quality guaranteed or you can return it. As for custom ordering, it is hard to beat for what you can get at that price point.



Chito said:


> Not sure about no name guitars but I do have a couple of MIC guitars. I have an Ibanez PM35 NT and an Epiphone es339 with p90s, Both are excellent guitars. The quality of some of the *Chinese made guitars have come a long way. It won't be long before they catch up to Japan and Korea.*


A number of factories already have. Eastman is one I can name off the top of my head and that comes not from me but from pros who have played just about everything under the sun.



Jim DaddyO said:


> Factories around the world all function pretty much the same. Give the customer what he wants, no more (or you lose money), no less (or you lose customers). You build to the customers specs.
> 
> So if AliExpress gives you a set of plans with specs, that is what you build, it doesn't matter if it is good or bad, that is not your call. If Epiphone gives you the same plans with better specs, then that is what you go by. In fact, it works fantastic when you have the same product going to multiple customers with different specs because then the runs can be sorted/graded while in process. You set up for your high spec customer and, while running, those that fall outside their parameters, get assigned to where they fit other customers, then, when the high spec customer's order is filled, you just run off what you need for the rest (it's a lot cheaper to just keep running as is than to make adjustments to make shitter parts). * In my factory life* we always had 2 bins at the end of the line, one OEM and one Aftermarket. Some of the aftermarket parts didn't meet OEM specs, but most of them still fall well into the range spec'd by OEM because the line just keeps running until the orders are met.


Jim, I started reading your post and said to myself, "this guy has got some manufacturing experience". And a few more lines down confirmed it. Very viable points for those that don't have your experience.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I recently bought an Alvarez Masterworks dreadnought with some of you may remember. These are top notch guitars. If they had a better dealer network, you would see them all over N. America.

Someone mentioned a Gretsch copy. I have always liked Gretsch hollow bodies and have never ordered one because the necks are too narrow. I looked into this with a Chinese manufacturer and they can make me a copy with the neck specs I like. If I go ahead, I would like some reference to Gretch on the headstock but obvious to everyone that it is a copy and not the real thing. I was thinking about misspelling Gretsch or Gretsch with "copy" in smaller letters. I don't want to break the law and don't think anyone should infringe on copyright. I would never buy a real Gretsch for the reasons stated about so they would not be losing a sale. I even emailed them to ask about the neck and they couldn't help me. Any suggestions for the headstock?


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## DavidP (Mar 7, 2006)

I've been quite impressed with the Classic Vibes, especially the thinline tele and 50's strat. Controls and switches are easily swapped out but The 50s strat pickups are oustanding.


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## Guest (Jan 16, 2018)

Steadfastly said:


> I was thinking about misspelling Gretsch or Gretsch with "copy" in smaller letters.


GRETSCHen?


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## Tone Chaser (Mar 2, 2014)

laristotle said:


> GRETSCHen?


GRETSCHINA


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

My Epiphone Black Beauty was made in China. On the outside it looked immaculate, but when I removed the pickups and electronics I found large chunks of the Mahogany were missing. It almost looked like a crack the size of the grand canyon. I think China is getting better, but still not up to spec with what is made in Korea. Comparing the Chinese Epiphone to my Korean made Prestige Heritage? No comparison, the Prestige is a much better built guitar then the Chinese Epiphone.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

My MIC guitar is an 2015 Epiphone Casino Coupe. Some frets had popped when it was new, but that was such an easy fix, I don't consider it a problem as they have stayed in place since. So far it is a thumbs up. Had the pickups rebuilt and it now more of a thumbs up. The only Gibson equivalent was the ES390 at $2500+


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

You get what you pay for with the budget lines and some people may accept it but I personally wouldn't. I'd stay away from the copies for sure but even the legit lines of instruments from China and the like turn me off. polite no thanks


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

knight_yyz said:


> My Epiphone Black Beauty was made in China. On the outside it looked immaculate, but when I removed the pickups and electronics I found large chunks of the Mahogany were missing. It almost looked like a crack the size of the grand canyon. I think China is getting better, but still not up to spec with what is made in Korea. Comparing the Chinese Epiphone to my Korean made Prestige Heritage? No comparison, the Prestige is a much better built guitar then the Chinese Epiphone.


And yet, they are two different guitars and two different companies and two different price points.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

It can be hit and miss. Sometimes you get what you for, sometimes you don't, sometimes you get something more. I scored with latter. Besides I don't have the F-ing $$$ let alone the justification to get the alternative.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Well, we were used to bad copies from China. But I was surprised some years ago, while looking closely at the back of guitar headstocks on eBay, how frequently I saw the "Made in China" sticker on guitars you would otherwise believe they were made in USA because they were sold by known american companies. Even guitars of a knowned UK brand (sorry, name slips off my mind) bear a curious sentence hiding the fact they are not made in UK... Some have their parts made in China while the whole instrument is built in USA. I saw my findings comfirmed in 2014 (search the net for "Acoustic Guitar magazine chinese vs american") and by my former luthier (before I moved) who made some trips in Asia where he could get a close look at what was going on in the guitar world and told me that chinese industry has now learned to make good guitars and their guitars would soon get on north american market. 
So, the general rule stay "try it" ! And have a good friend look at it before you buy.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

mawmow said:


> ... Even guitars of a knowned UK brand (sorry, name slips off my mind) bear a curious sentence hiding the fact they are not made in UK...


That would be Tanglewood. They put "Tanglewood Guitar Company United Kingdom" on the back of the headstock. Mine has "Designed in the United Kingdom, handcrafted in China" on the label inside the body, but I have seen some with absolutely no indication that they are made in China. Nevertheless, they seem to be good value.


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## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

Some bozo in Ottawa is selling a Chibson on Kijiji and he keeps reposting it. He has no price now, but it was $600 at first which is ludicrous. His ad says that the pickups have been replaced and they are real Gibson pickups so it’s worth ‘more’. But it’s a Chibson, how would someone know that the pickups are real Gibson’s when it also says Gibson on the headstock on the knockoff. 

I would never buy a piece of garbage Chinese made guitar off of Aliexpress much less try and sell one second hand for good money locally. There are plenty of real Gibson’s for the same money. 

I ordered a thermometer on Aliexpress once. After about three months, it hadn’t arrived so I opened a dispute. Then, to my surprise, it mysteriously arrived in my mailbox after about six months of waiting. However, it was DOA and when I opened the battery compartment, there was a non standard battery in it that had leaked acid. What a waste of time.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

Anybody that says the chibsons from Ali- express are as good as the real deal, have very low expectations of what they are looking for. 
But I have a couple made in China guitars that are surprisingly good ,and would have no problem playing them Out at a show.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I was assuming this thread was about legitimate MIC guitars


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Lord-Humongous said:


> I would never buy *a piece of garbage Chinese made guita*r off of Aliexpress much less try and sell one second hand for good money locally. There are plenty of real Gibson’s for the same money.


The reason they are selling so many to N. America, though, is they are not all garbage. Some of them are very good guitars for a lot less money than you would pay here, so you can't blame people for buying them direct from China. Many simply can't afford the prices in N. America.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Any wise words on the latest Epiphone offerings? My first acoustic (Classical) was an Epi. That would've been low to mid 80's vintage. Really nice guitars then. They seem to be uping the Ante a bit lately.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Cheap "Gibson"? Excellent decoy for thieves.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

My big concern is that, while I am ..ahem..."parsimonious"...I am also too cheap to risk $300+ bucks on an AliExpress deal. As well, the sourcing of woods is a concern: I would prefer they were sourced legally and ethically.

Now there are some big manufacturers that make guitars in China, such as Fender (Modern Players), Gibson (Epiphone) and ESP (some of the LTDs) that get good products from there, but they make sure they control as much of the process as possible.

That said, realistically, websites like rondomusic.com sell Chinese (and Korean and Vietnamese) stuff with a guarantee for a very reasonable price. Less risk for a similar price works better for me.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Poor build quality keeps repair guys in business. Although to be fair, just about every new guitar bought needs a set up and some tweaking. I don't think many retailers do that before they go on display any more. Not sure why that is, margins can't be that close on profit and a well set up guitar would sell better than just throwing them out there.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Steadfastly said:


> The reason they are selling so many to N. America, though, is they are not all garbage. Some of them are very good guitars for a lot less money than you would pay here, so you can't blame people for buying them direct from China. Many simply can't afford the prices in N. America.


The reason people buy them Steadfastly is because people just don't want to pay for quality anymore. The knockoffs are great looking guitars but to the people that own the real thing they can spot the differences right away. They are know where close to being the same guitar as a real Gibson, Fender etc.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

TA462 said:


> The reason people buy them Steadfastly is because people just don't want to pay for quality anymore. The knockoffs are great looking guitars but to the people that own the real thing they can spot the differences right away. They are know where close to being the same guitar as a real Gibson, Fender etc.


I respectfully disagree. When you buy from a manufacturer with a big name you are paying a huge premium for that name. I used to work for one of those manufacturers and had access to costs. In our case, the same thing excepts cosmetics could be had for almost half price. Why? Because we had the big name, corporate structure with the salaries, huge advertising and marketing budgets, etc, etc. That's why the big name companies product costs so much. 

In many cases, people would like to buy a those products but can't afford it.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Steadfastly, if you truly believe that a knockoff Gibson is as good as a real one then your not the guitar player you think you are. The Chinese make some great products but knockoff guitars aren't one of them. Forget the cost of both of them and lie them side by side and then play them both and the real one will win every time, even out of tune.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

TA462 said:


> Steadfastly, if you truly believe that a knockoff Gibson is as good as a real one then your not the guitar player you think you are. The Chinese make some great products but knockoff guitars aren't one of them. Forget the cost of both of them and lie them side by side and then play them both and the real one will win every time, even out of tune.


I think you need to go back and reread the posts.


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## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

Don’t forget with the name, you get the intellectual property and trademarks. In the case of a Chibson, they have simply stolen that off of the backs of hard working of Gibson employees. I don’t have as significant objection to MIC Epiphone and Ibanez guitars, but I do when it comes to the liberal view that Chinese business has taken on forgery and counterfeiting. 


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

I agree with you Lord-Humongous. Epiphone for example are great guitars. Their higher end LPs are as good as a Gibson Studio LP in my opinion.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Steadfastly said:


> I think you need to go back and reread the posts.


Don't think I do, you've answered my question.


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## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

TA462 said:


> I agree with you Lord-Humongous. Epiphone for example are great guitars. Their higher end LPs are as good as a Gibson Studio LP in my opinion.


I think this is where I’ll diverge. I’ve had both and prefer the USA Gibson much more. The glossy poly finish on imports doesn’t work for me, it’s too sticky. Nor to skinny profile necks. A US built Gibson can be had with many different subtlest differences in the neck profile, which is a big thing for me. 


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

I've owned both as well. Once I bought my first Gibson I knew I would never buy another brand of LP ever again. I still have my first, a Studio and have since added two Traditionals and a Classic to the collection.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I agree with the previous two comments. 

We all have different abilities, needs and expectations. Not everyone can sense the difference and not everyone can justify the price of the better guitar (yes, it is a better guitar). I don't criticize them for their requirements and their choice. But some of them (and you know who you are) seem to really be offended that some of us can tell the difference - and are willing to spend the money to enjoy the step up in quality and sound. 

Play what you love - and love what you play. It's really that simple, right?


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

High/Deaf said:


> I agree with the previous two comments.
> 
> We all have different abilities, needs and expectations. Not everyone can sense the difference and not everyone can justify the price of the better guitar (yes, it is a better guitar). I don't criticize them for their requirements and their choice. But some of them (and you know who you are) seem to really be offended that some of us can tell the difference - and are willing to spend the money to enjoy the step up in quality and sound.
> 
> Play what you love - and love what you play. It's really that simple, right?


And I agree with this post,
however,
The question asked in the OP was specifically about the Aliexpress(basically counterfitters) type of sellers and that perhaps it isn't bad to buy from them because one can't afford to purchase a Gretsch or whatever.




Steadfastly said:


> The reason they are selling so many to N. America, though, is they are not all garbage. Some of them are very good guitars for a lot less money than you would pay here, so you can't blame people for buying them direct from China. Many simply can't afford the prices in N. America.


How many people would buy from Aliexpress if they didn't put Gibson or Fender or Gretsch etc. on the headstock ?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Bubb said:


> And I agree with this post,
> however,
> The question asked in the OP was specifically about the Aliexpress(basically counterfitters) type of sellers and that perhaps it isn't bad to buy from them because one can't afford to purchase a Gretsch or whatever.
> 
> ...


I don't know. Do you? I think what's worse is people buying from them with a manufacturer's name on the headstock with the intention to pass it off as coming from the OEM.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Lord-Humongous said:


> Don’t forget with the name, you get the intellectual property and trademarks.* In the case of a Chibson, they have simply stolen that off of the backs of hard working of Gibson employees*. I don’t have as significant objection to MIC Epiphone and Ibanez guitars, but I do when it comes to the liberal view that Chinese business has taken on forgery and counterfeiting.


Of course, when the laws on international trade and patents are ignored, that is morally and legally wrong and no one should accept this.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> I don't know. Do you?


Safe to say,a lot less,or they wouldn't do it.


Steadfastly said:


> I think what's worse is people buying from them with a manufacturer's name on the headstock with the intention to pass it off as coming from the OEM.


What other reason could there possibly be ?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Bubb said:


> Safe to say,a lot less,or they wouldn't do it.
> 
> What other reason could there possibly be ?


Bubb, if you read this post, there were at least a couple of us would buy one for ourselves with no intention of passing it off as an OEM product. A number of YouTube videos exclaim the same thing and have not name or a custom name put on the headstock.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Bubb said:


> And I agree with this post,
> however,
> The question asked in the OP was specifically about the Aliexpress(basically counterfitters) type of sellers and that perhaps it isn't bad to buy from them because one can't afford to purchase a Gretsch or whatever.


Sure, if I could't afford $3k for a Japanese Gretsch I would happily pay less than $1k for a Korean one. Fine instruments.

I expect to pay a certain amount for a usable, crafted musical instrument. I don't believe the price of admission should be less than $50. Maybe that's just my old school philosophy. If people have done that and been happy with it, more power to them. I would not be happy with it. I've played cheap guitars and life is just too short. YMMV



> How many people would buy from Aliexpress if they didn't put Gibson or Fender or Gretsch etc. on the headstock ?


Yes, that is the worst. A few people probably buy these as end users but I think far too many are buying them to cheat people on Kijiji or Craigslist or wherever. We laugh about their ads, but I bet they are selling to unsuspecting people, who then think x-brand guitars are shit because they bought a fake. And it probably kills their interest in the instrument - maybe in any instrument. Those are sad ramifications of these Aliexpress fakes, IMO.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Steadfastly said:


> Bubb, if you read this post, there were at least a couple of us would buy one for ourselves with no intention of passing it off as an OEM product. A number of YouTube videos exclaim the same thing and have not name or a custom name put on the headstock.


Steadfastly but its against the law. It is illegal to import counterfeit anything into Canada. Why would you want to break the law just to say you own a counterfeit Gibson that is a piece of garbage compared to the real thing? This I don't get. Honestly I don't understand why people just want to go against the grain. I think its for their own amusement sometimes because they can't really be that dumb to want to risk getting caught.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> Bubb, if you read this post, there were at least a couple of us would buy one for ourselves with no intention of passing it off as an OEM product. A number of YouTube videos exclaim the same thing and have not name or a custom name put on the headstock.


I assure you,I have read the posts.
I'm not referring to the nameless headstocks or the custom named,I'm fine with that,knock yourself out.
My original post on this thread stated as much.

The fact is Aliexpress,and those of it's ilk,came to peoples attention because they do in fact put brand names on guitars that are direct copies.
You/they may have no intention of passing one off,but some do,and frankly , shit happens that you have no control over.

Say buddy George buys a LP copy with Gibson on the headstock,sure he may have no intention of ever selling it ,or if he does with full disclosure.
George then loses his job,or gets sick and needs cash, whatever,sells what he can,buyer is now in possession of a "Gibson LP",whose to say the buyer's intent ?

or George dies,family that doesn't necessarily know anything about anything musical must deal with the estate,via auction house perhaps.
There are a multitude of ways a guitar can enter the marketplace no matter the intentions of the original buyer.



High/Deaf said:


> Sure, if I could't afford $3k for a Japanese Gretsch I would happily pay less than $1k for a Korean one. Fine instruments.
> 
> I expect to pay a certain amount for a usable, crafted musical instrument. I don't believe the price of admission should be less than $50. Maybe that's just my old school philosophy. If people have done that and been happy with it, more power to them. I would not be happy with it. I've played cheap guitars and life is just too short. YMMV
> 
> ...


100% agreement.


----------



## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Who the f*** in Canada would be buy from Alexipress, let alone this forum? If they do the I wonder how really large the numbers are in Canada. Since this is the Guitars Canada Forum, the United States numbers are irrelevant.


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## Bubb (Jan 16, 2008)

Robert1950 said:


> Who the f*** in Canada would be buy from Alexipress, let alone this forum? If they do the I wonder how really large the numbers are in Canada. Since this is the Guitars Canada Forum, the United States numbers are irrelevant.


Well,apparently a friend of the OP for one,although it's not clear to me how it was labeled.
I've also seen more than a few on Kijiji,so they are out there for sure .


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Bubb said:


> I assure you,I have read the posts.
> 
> 
> *or George dies,family that doesn't necessarily know anything about anything musical must deal with the estate,via auction house perhaps.
> ...


Yes, I thought of that too. That's why, if I go ahead and buy the Gretsch "copy", I will do something with the headstock so that doesn't happen.

We may get upset at others who don't care or expressly buy these to try and fool people. The fact remains, as much as it upsets us, there is little we can do about it. There are so many larger issues facing governments these days, they are seemingly turning a blind eye to it. They can't contend with the opioid epidemic which is killing hundreds every year, so why would we expect them to be able to contend with patent fakes.


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## Guest (Jan 18, 2018)

Here's a thread documenting a thorough teardown of a counterfeit strat.
'Pepto Bismol Special'


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Steadfastly said:


> Yes, I thought of that too. That's why, if I go ahead and buy the Gretsch "copy", I will do something with the headstock so that doesn't happen.
> 
> We may get upset at others who don't care or expressly buy these to try and fool people. The fact remains, as much as it upsets us, there is little we can do about it. There are so many larger issues facing governments these days, they are seemingly turning a blind eye to it. They can't contend with the opioid epidemic which is killing hundreds every year, so why would we expect them to be able to contend with patent fakes.


So your fine with breaking the law? Your OK with stealing from Gretsch? I'm curious to know why you think that Gretsch copy will be just as good as the real thing.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

TA462 said:


> So your fine with breaking the law? Your OK with stealing from Gretsch? I'm curious to know why you think that Gretsch copy will be just as good as the real thing.


You didn't read my previous posts so you are speaking with less than full knowledge. I won't bother going over what I did. If you want, you can go back and read them or continue ranting; your choice.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> You didn't read my previous posts so you are speaking with less than full knowledge. I won't bother going over what I did. If you want, you can go back and read them or continue ranting; your choice.


I totally get it, when it suits your needs then breaking the law is ok and cheating that business is fine because they are large evil marketing machines taking advantage of people. When it is someone else doing the same thing you judge and call them criminals, did I get it right?


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## jayoldschool (Sep 12, 2013)

I bought one of the second gen Monoprice gold tops. Looks good, plays decent. It only took one tweak of the truss rod to get the neck nice. It was on sale, and I had a coupon, and, I had it shipped to the US for pickup so it cost around 100. A ridiculous deal. Not fooling anyone, it doesn't have the G word on the headstock. I keep it in Eb drop Db for when I need it.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Yes, I thought of that too. That's why, if I go ahead and buy the Gretsch "copy", I will do something with the headstock so that doesn't happen.
> 
> We may get upset at others who don't care or expressly buy these to try and fool people. The fact remains, as much as it upsets us, there is little we can do about it. There are so many larger issues facing governments these days, they are seemingly turning a blind eye to it. They can't contend with the opioid epidemic which is killing hundreds every year, so why would we expect them to be able to contend with patent fakes.


Hacking up a logo/headstock afterwards doesn’t change the fact that someone bought an illegal counterfeit. Just because you’ll probably get away with it since the gov’t is too busy to enforce the law doesn’t make it right either.

There are enough good-quality, affordable “copies” of iconic guitars made offshore by the original manufacturer/under license (i.e. Epiphone, PRS SE, Squier CV etc.), why/how anyone would/could justify buying a fake is beyond me.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Roryfan said:


> Hacking up a logo/headstock afterwards doesn’t change the fact that someone bought an illegal counterfeit. Just because you’ll probably get away with it since the gov’t is too busy to enforce the law doesn’t make it right either.
> 
> There are enough good-quality, affordable “copies” of iconic guitars made offshore by the original manufacturer/under license (i.e. Epiphone, PRS SE, Squier CV etc.), why/how anyone would/could justify buying a fake is beyond me.


But none with a 1 3/4" nut. I checked with Gretsch on this and they don't make a neck like that. So It's not a copy. It's a custom guitar that Gretsch doesn't make.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> But none with a 1 3/4" nut. I checked with Gretsch on this and they don't make a neck like that. So It's not a copy. It's a custom guitar that Gretsch doesn't make.


Then it wouldn’t say Gretsch on the headstock and/or use the Gretsch headstock shape. Otherwise it’s a counterfeit & you’re using semantics to rationalize buying a fake.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Roryfan said:


> Then it wouldn’t say Gretsch on the headstock and/or use the Gretsch headstock shape. Otherwise it’s a counterfeit & you’re using semantics to rationalize buying a fake.


I'll tell you the same thing I told TA462. Go back and read my posts.


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

jayoldschool said:


> I bought one of the second gen Monoprice gold tops. Looks good, plays decent. It only took one tweak of the truss rod to get the neck nice. It was on sale, and I had a coupon, and, I had it shipped to the US for pickup so it cost around 100. A ridiculous deal. Not fooling anyone, it doesn't have the G word on the headstock. I keep it in Eb drop Db for when I need it.


jayoldschool, I bought one of those back in 2015. I'm surprised at how much sustain you can get out of it. I posted my unboxing and review here:

https://www.guitarscanada.com/index.php?threads/ncggd-lots-of-photos.68514/


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Steadfastly said:


> Go back and read my posts.


Like to the beginning of time?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

vadsy said:


> I totally get it, when it suits your needs then breaking the law is ok and cheating that business is fine because they are large evil marketing machines taking advantage of people. When it is someone else doing the same thing you judge and call them criminals, did I get it right?


You just don't understand manufacturing! In fact, only one person here does. Really, just ask him. Ducts, guitars - same bloody thing. Right?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> You just don't understand manufacturing! In fact, only one person here does. Really, just ask him. Ducts, guitars - same bloody thing. Right?


perhaps the most interesting man in the world,.. they say to not meet your heroes so I'd just like to be a fly on the wall while things like ducts and guitars are discussed


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

Feed your own economy.

If you can't feed your own economy then feed the economy least likely to threaten your own economy and most likely to feed your economy.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Steadfastly said:


> I'll tell you the same thing I told TA462. Go back and read my posts.


I can go back and read them all I want and I still get the same answer, BLAH BLAH BLAH. You still haven't said why you think its OK to break the law and steal. Your character and your guitar playing ability are really coming into question here.


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## Larry (Sep 3, 2016)

Licenced, Legit Made in China Guitars - YES, Absolutely.

DH Gate , Ali Express , Fake Rip Offs. - Not A Chance.


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## Fuzzy dagger (Jun 3, 2016)

I lived in Shanghai in 1998 and gigged a bit there. I sat in with a lovely duo in a massive mall atrium in Pudong a couple of times and with a reggae band downtown. Those players had mostly Fender Squire stuff I think, and it was crap. Early days for that part of the world. But you know...it was awesome, off brand shit sounds good in the right hands. And as much as we fetish-ize it, guitar making is not rocket surgery. I hope that the whole world gets to make electric guitars. I feel that strongly about it. 

My Tele was "Crafted in Indonesia" and it plays, sounds and looks sick. Cheapest guitar I play but it's all there. Weight, scale length, neck. Bit of file work and a neck mini-hum. Wo shiun Zhong Guo! ( I love China ),


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

TA462 said:


> I can go back and read them all I want and I still get the same answer, BLAH BLAH BLAH. You still haven't said why you think its OK to break the law and steal. Your character and your guitar playing ability are really coming into question here.


@Steadfastly


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Of course, the Chinese government does not see that there is any evidence of copyright infringement happening too. Which does not help the situation at all.

China Seriously Doubts Objectivity of US 'Pirate Site' List - TorrentFreak


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Of course, the Chinese government does not see that there is any evidence of copyright infringement happening too. Which does not help the situation at all.
> 
> China Seriously Doubts Objectivity of US 'Pirate Site' List - TorrentFreak


They also subsidize shipping costs in order to get sales from other countries by giving them another cost advantage. As an example, I ordered a replacement pickguard for my acoustic. The cost was $1.05 with free shipping to Canada. To mail a letter within Canada costs us $1.00. The real shipping costs must be at least $10.00. The same is true of guitars, amps, etc. The shipping costs are free or very low.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

BLAH BLAH BLAH, Steadfastly.


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

Whats the difference between a CNC'd PRS or CNC'd PRChina? 

As long as its a fraction of the cost to reflect the labor costs, who cares?


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Nothing is different. The only issue is it’s against the law to import counterfeit goods into Canada. So if you buy that PRChina you are breaking the law and stealing from PRS. Some people think that’s ok and some people have better character then to do that.


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2018)

TheYanChamp said:


> Whats the difference between a CNC'd PRS or CNC'd PRChina?


Wood vs fancily painted particle board.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

It's not just guitars either. The Chinese are making copies of everything imaginable and flooding the market with them.

One I'm familiar with is Honda small engines. The materials used are of lesser quality of course, so the moving parts wear out quite quickly. Good thing is they copied the Honda so closely that you can use Honda replacement parts in the knock-off engine and make them live a little bit longer.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Yeah, a counterfeit copy is exactly like a PRS, just cheaper...


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

My friend told me about a six million dollar concrete pump counterfeit. Right down to the German logo on the heads of the bolts.

The importer shipped parts in the original oriental crates instead of switching to fake european crates. Busted!

This info was received through some other professional in his field. I tried to verify this online but found nothing in a few minutes and gave up. Good story anyway.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

All good


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

All good.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

All good


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Good point.

No harm meant.

Please delete from your post.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

See steady. Thats how its done. You just admit you were wrong.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

KapnKrunch said:


> See steady. Thats how its done. You just admit you were wrong.


Yep, been there and done that. Please read all my posts in this thread and explain why I am wrong and if so, I will acquiesce.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

KapnKrunch said:


> Good point.
> 
> No harm meant.
> 
> Please delete from your post.


Done and thank you.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Yep, been there and done that.


hmm, I don't believe you


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Steadfastly said:


> Yep, been there and done that. Please read all my posts in this thread and explain why I am wrong and if so, I will acquiesce.


No you won't.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

KapnKrunch said:


> No you won't.


Your choice.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Steadfastly said:


> Yep, been there and done that. Please read all my posts in this thread and explain why I am wrong and if so, I will acquiesce.


Your wrong because you supposedly contacted a Chinese manufacturer to produce you a knockoff Gretsch knowing that it is against the law and is stealing from another person. You don’t need to admit your wrong now. Your character says more about you then a fake oops, sorry I made a mistake.


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## Eyeban Ezz (Jan 19, 2018)

As far as name brands go, I don't know what the conditions are like in the factories where some guitars are made. I have read in other forums that Cort should be avoided because they apparently treat their employees like shit until they suicide. I have a couple of name brand guitars that were made in China and they are fine. Anything built to be cost-effective or affordable is coming out of China these days. I have a LTD as well as a set-neck Ibanez ARC that were made in China and they play absolutely fine. I don't really think too much about what the working conditions at the factory are. 

I don't think anybody should be buying counterfeit anything, whether it's musical instruments or not. Fake stuff is hideous and awful, I'd be ashamed to show a knockoff to any of my friends. See the video below


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Eyeban Ezz Syndrome said:


> As far as name brands go, I don't know what the conditions are like in the factories where some guitars are made. I have read in other forums that Cort should be avoided because they apparently treat their employees like shit until they suicide. I have a couple of name brand guitars that were made in China and they are fine. Anything built to be cost-effective or affordable is coming out of China these days. I have a LTD as well as a set-neck Ibanez ARC that were made in China and they play absolutely fine. I don't really think too much about what the working conditions at the factory are.
> 
> I don't think anybody should be buying counterfeit anything, whether it's musical instruments or not. Fake stuff is hideous and awful, I'd be ashamed to show a knockoff to any of my friends. See the video below


the video speaks to me, well done finding it, I have a feeling that is our very own @Steadfastly

edit- oops my bad, it can't be him, the dude in the vid seems to dislike the counterfeit


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

TA462 said:


> Nothing is different. The only issue is it’s against the law to import counterfeit goods into Canada. So if you buy that PRChina you are breaking the law and stealing from PRS. Some people think that’s ok and some people have better character then to do that.


Just using prs as an example. I dont support unlicensed copies, but PRS have been using cnc for a couple decades.

Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

TheYanChamp said:


> Just using prs as an example. I dont support unlicensed copies, but PRS have been using cnc for a couple decades.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G900W8 using Tapatalk


Using CNC is all well and good, but it doesn’t mean the fakes are even close to the legit ones.

The PRS guitars made in Korea are really good, but the Core line are just amazing. Well, I like them, anyway.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Eyeban Ezz Syndrome said:


> As far as name brands go, I don't know what the conditions are like in the factories where some guitars are made. I have read in other forums that Cort should be avoided because they apparently treat their employees like shit until they suicide.


. 
I hope you didn't write that post from an iPhone.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2018)

Eyeban Ezz Syndrome said:


> See the video below


_.. as fake as the tits on a stripper._ lol.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Lincoln said:


> It's not just guitars either. The Chinese are making copies of everything imaginable and flooding the market with them.
> 
> One I'm familiar with is Honda small engines. The materials used are of lesser quality of course, so the moving parts wear out quite quickly. Good thing is they copied the Honda so closely that you can use Honda replacement parts in the knock-off engine and make them live a little bit longer.


i bought one this year. it cost me $700 u.s. shipped to my front door. to buy the equivalent honda would cost $3000, and i have to pick it up at the dealer. the bike runs like a sewing machine. yeah, alot of the parts are cheap. even if i replaced them all tomorrow i wouldn't be anywhere near 3 grand. i'd say it's waaayyyy worth it, in this case.



laristotle said:


> _.. as fake as the tits on a stripper._ lol.


personally, i really like fake stripper tits.


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## Guest (Jan 23, 2018)

cheezyridr said:


> personally, i really like fake stripper tits.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> i bought one this year. it cost me $700 u.s. shipped to my front door. to buy the equivalent honda would cost $3000, and i have to pick it up at the dealer. the bike runs like a sewing machine. yeah, alot of the parts are cheap. even if i replaced them all tomorrow i wouldn't be anywhere near 3 grand. i'd say it's waaayyyy worth it, in this case.


maybe they improved, but it was always the valve train parts that went first. Things that should have been heat-treated/tempered and weren't. Valve spring retainers, rocker arms, push rods, push rod guide plates, valve stems, etc. Like you say, you can buy a hell of a lot of Honda valve train parts for $3000


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## James (Jul 3, 2007)

I was looking into a Gretsch duojet - realized I couldn't afford a real one - then my friend showed me the Aliexpress copy guitars - looks like i could get a fake for $500-600 Canadian - then I looked at the Gretsch projet - its about $675 Canadian when purchased from Gretsch, and it turns out the projet is made in China anyway!
what to do.....I'm leaning towards buying the 'real' Gretsch, even if it is made in China....


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

James said:


> I was looking into a Gretsch duojet - realized I couldn't afford a real one - then my friend showed me the Aliexpress copy guitars - looks like i could get a fake for $500-600 Canadian - then I looked at the Gretsch projet - its about $675 Canadian when purchased from Gretsch, and it turns out the projet is made in China anyway!
> what to do.....I'm leaning towards buying the 'real' Gretsch, even if it is made in China....


You buy the real thing from the actual company.

If you want to save money, buy a used one.


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

laristotle said:


>


Or Canadian Tire money.


----------



## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

James said:


> I was looking into a Gretsch duojet - realized I couldn't afford a real one - then my friend showed me the Aliexpress copy guitars - looks like i could get a fake for $500-600 Canadian - then I looked at the Gretsch projet - its about $675 Canadian when purchased from Gretsch, and it turns out the projet is made in China anyway!
> what to do.....I'm leaning towards buying the 'real' Gretsch, even if it is made in China....


The issue isn't the made in China part of the discussion. 

The issue is people knowingly supporting counterfeiters --- and making excuses for doing so. 

Who here has their own manufacturing business? Care to share your thoughts on how you'd feel --- or how it would affect your business --- if people starting buying a counterfeit copy of your product with your company's actual name emblazened upon it?


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Steadfastly has lots of manufacturing experience, so he says. He says a lot of things but he is fine with it. Me on the other hand I would be pissed and would do everything in my power to bring the counterfeiters to justice. It would not only hurt my bottom line but it could potential ruin my business because of poorly made, cheaper products with my name on it. It could hurt potential new business as well.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

cdntac said:


> The issue isn't the made in China part of the discussion.
> 
> The issue is people knowingly supporting counterfeiters --- and making excuses for doing so.
> 
> Who here has their own manufacturing business? Care to share your thoughts on how you'd feel --- or how it would affect your business --- if people starting buying a counterfeit copy of your product with your company's actual name emblazened upon it?


I have met Kevin O'Connor from London Power for coffee a couple of times. He has developed a couple of amp technologies that he needs to protect. 

"Once you get into the world of patents, it changes everything. You spend a lot of time looking over your shoulder to see if someone is ripping you off." 

He sells a $5 license to use any of his inventions on your smp. Use as many as you like. No need to give him credit. You would think that every amp manufacturer would just pay the $5. Simple. Cheap. Honest. Fair. I will have to ask him how that works for him. I wonder how many big names are just pretending to have something similar? Copying it with just enough difference to create a legal doubt? Waiting for the patent to expire? Options that are costing them $6 because its their nature to steal. 

BTW, the late Glenn McDougall told me that a major asian brand ripped off more of his guitar ideas than the rest put together. I am afraid to mention their name. Yeah, the shredders probably own one. But they don't realize it, so they can't be blamed. 

In the case we are discussing here, with the name right on the instrument.... c'mon. Talk about manipulating your own morality (if you have any).


----------



## James (Jul 3, 2007)

So i went to our local Gretsch dealer, who had a gold top Projet on the wall - about $680 i recall ? As expected, it really needed a fret dressing / nut change right off the bat - Sadly, the bigsby felt kind of 'cheap' - I don't mean to be disrespectful - the whole guitar just didn't feel 'substantial' Does that make sense? There are some pics of a beautiful Ibanez at the beginning of this post - now that is a 'substantial' / beautiful guitar! Anyway, this Projet said "made in China" - so the whole experience re learning about Ali express etc has lead me full circle - I'll put my Gretsch 'jones' on hold for a while - i'd only ever consider a 'real' one now anyway - I'm old enough that George's duo jet is a big part of my early guitar 'experience' - To actually own one these days would be such a trip! But only under the right circumstances, and Aliexpress would not be involved...


----------



## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

TA462 said:


> Steadfastly has lots of manufacturing experience, so he says. He says a lot of things but he is fine with it. Me on the other hand I would be pissed and would do everything in my power to bring the counterfeiters to justice. It would not only hurt my bottom line but it could potential ruin my business because of poorly made, cheaper products with my name on it. It could hurt potential new business as well.


Good luck.
The amount of pending litigations occuring against many of these counterfitters would set you back a few years. By the time you'd even be able to bring your case before a judge, they would simply disappear. You can't sue someone who doesn't exist.


----------



## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

cheezyridr said:


> i bought one this year. it cost me $700 u.s. shipped to my front door. to buy the equivalent honda would cost $3000, and i have to pick it up at the dealer. the bike runs like a sewing machine. yeah, alot of the parts are cheap. even if i replaced them all tomorrow i wouldn't be anywhere near 3 grand. i'd say it's waaayyyy worth it, in this case.
> 
> 
> 
> personally, i really like fake stripper tits.


I just like strippers, real or fake.


----------



## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

What's the ethical difference between buying a 500 dollar Chinese Rick clone with no decal, and a 2-3000 dollar vintage Telecaster clone from Dano, Nacho, etc.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

cboutilier said:


> *What's the ethical difference *between buying a 500 dollar Chinese Rick clone with no decal, and a 2-3000 dollar vintage Telecaster clone from Dano, Nacho, etc.


The difference is what's on the headstock and what it is being sold as. If it's being passed off as being the real thing, that is fraud and an infringement on the patent if it is still applicable.

Personally, I would have something on the headstock because if it's plain, a fake could be applied later and passed off as the real deal. Mostly, it comes down to each person's moral compass because the authorities do not have the resources to stop it.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2018)

Dano, Nacho, etc. have their reputation on the line.
A chinbacker only wants your money. There most likely will be no follow-up if there are problems.
I agree with Steadly's 'no decal' point.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

laristotle said:


> Dano, Nacho, etc. have their reputation on the line.
> A chinbacker only wants your money. There most likely will be no follow-up if there are problems.
> I agree with Steadly's 'no decal' point.


I'm of course ignoring quality in this idea. My point is just that the boutique builders (some leave the headstock bare), and the Chinese factories are both producing the same product. They are selling very close clones of someone elses IP. 

The biggest difference I see between the boutiques and the Chinese is marketing. The boutiques are marketed from within countries who care about such things, and as such are careful to avoid using the F, T, S, G, LP words on their clones. The Chinese dont have to worry about that so they dont.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

The biggest difference I see between all the made in China (or Korea, Indonesia etc..) guitars is that the ones from REAL companies like Squier, Epiphone, Gretsch, etc.. are ALL trying to maintain brand recognition and consumer faith in the brand, to maintain or increase sales for the brand, and they do their best to make decent guitars at a fair price. These are the 'good' MIC guitars. Some are fantastic guitars at a great price, new or used.

The FAKE Gibsons, CS Fenders, Ricks, etc from those websites like AliExpress are from companies NOT trying to defend or promote a brand, and thus have no interest in resales, or long term customer satisfaction. Their only incentive is to TRICK YOU INTO BUYING A FAKE GUITAR. The pictures on the websites are of REAL Gibsons, etc but the fakes are not going to look like that. These guitars are generally WORSE than any Chinese made Epiphone or Squier etc. you would ever see in a store... Do not buy these.


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## Guest (Feb 12, 2018)

tomee2 said:


> The FAKE Gibsons, CS Fenders, Ricks, etc


I like how kijidiots post upgraded 'replicas' and ask for trades of actual MIM's or EPI's.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

as a result of reading this thread, I looked through the guitars on a couple of the sites mentioned. Looks pretty tempting until one of them is foolish enough to put up a good detailed close-up and you see what the quality of the work is like. Looked mostly at LP's but also JR's, Fender stuff, and even some acoustics. I'd be asking for close-up shots of the fret boards and bindings of the actual guitar you're buying before getting too serious.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Lincoln said:


> as a result of reading this thread, I looked through the guitars on a couple of the sites mentioned. Looks pretty tempting until one of them is foolish enough to put up a good detailed close-up and you see what the quality of the work is like. Looked mostly at LP's but also JR's, Fender stuff, and even some acoustics. I'd be asking for close-up shots of the fret boards and bindings of the actual guitar you're buying before getting too serious.


And, will you get what is in the picture, or will it be a CNC'd lump of MDF painted with thick gloss black poly neck and back, and topped off with an ink-jet printed "flame" top and painted on "binding" all covered in thick gloss poly? You have no idea what will actually show up...

With legitimate companies you can see them in a store, or order online and return if you're not happy. If you still don't like it, you can even put up a review pointing out your problems with the product.

With the counterfeits the money goes one way, the junk goes the other and there's no turning back.

beware of any product where the seller can hide behind the façade of a "brand" built up by others but has no accountability to that brand. Be it fake, watches, shoes, handbags or guitars.. it's all the same.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

tomee2 said:


> The biggest difference I see between all the made in China (or Korea, Indonesia etc..) guitars is that the ones from REAL companies like Squier, Epiphone, Gretsch, etc.. are ALL trying to maintain brand recognition and consumer faith in the brand, to maintain or increase sales for the brand, and they do their best to make decent guitars at a fair price. These are the 'good' MIC guitars. Some are fantastic guitars at a great price, new or used.
> 
> The FAKE Gibsons, CS Fenders, Ricks, etc from those websites like AliExpress are from companies NOT trying to defend or promote a brand, and thus have no interest in resales, or long term customer satisfaction. *Their only incentive is to TRICK YOU INTO BUYING A FAKE GUITAR*. The pictures on the websites are of REAL Gibsons, etc but the fakes are not going to look like that. These guitars are generally WORSE than any Chinese made Epiphone or Squier etc. you would ever see in a store... Do not buy these.


That is not quite true. They are also aiming to market guitars to people who want a guitar that looks like the real thing to people who can't afford or are not willing to pay the price of the branded guitar but still sound decent enough. As for being worse than some of the branded guitars, that is not always the case either. Some of the guitars are quite good as reports confirm.

Trying to pass off fakes, though, is still wrong.


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