# A Chinese Experiment (Arrived)



## GuitarsCanada

I just ordered a "Custom Shop 60's Strat" from China. This is purely an experiment. I want to get down to the bottom of these guitars and see for myself what they are made of and play like. I will document the experiment here with full picture layouts and info. Lets see what happens. Should be delivered by the end of next week sometime. 

Oh, BTW. Total cost was $183.00 CDN shipped.


----------



## bagpipe

How did you order it? I'm guessing that you'll get something similar to a Rondo guitar but you'll be cutting out the middle man. Although, some of the prices of the Rondo SX/Douglas guitars are amazing ie something like:

http://www.rondomusic.com/hawkmn23ts.html


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Its coming in direct from China. Shipped free.


----------



## blam

wow... that's hella cheap...looking forward to seeing the results.


----------



## Hammertone

Don't forget to add:
- 6% duty
- 15% HST
- possible Canada Customs handling charge


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Hammertone said:


> Don't forget to add:
> - 6% duty
> - 15% HST
> - possible Canada Customs handling charge


will keep you posted on all the details


----------



## Steadfastly

GuitarsCanada said:


> Its coming in direct from China. Shipped free.


Did you order it from Nextag?


----------



## Steadfastly

Hammertone said:


> Don't forget to add:
> - 6% duty
> - 15% HST
> - possible Canada Customs handling charge


I'm quite sure there will be no duty. I've brought in guitars made in China and they are duty free.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Steadfastly said:


> Did you order it from Nextag?


ordered it from tradetang


----------



## bluzfish

15% HST (giggle...)


----------



## davetcan

Really looking forward to following this


----------



## bagpipe

Just browsing the Tradetang website. They don't show the headstock on most of the guitars - I'm assuming this is on purpose as they have the Fender, Gibson, Gretsch logo etc? Heres an example:

http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/N...ville-electric-guitar-red/103851-2280465.html


----------



## GuitarsCanada

bagpipe said:


> Just browsing the Tradetang website. They don't show the headstock on most of the guitars - I'm assuming this is on purpose as they have the Fender, Gibson, Gretsch logo etc? Heres an example:
> 
> http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/N...ville-electric-guitar-red/103851-2280465.html


Thats what I am expecting, but have no idea. Thats part of the experiment


----------



## LaRSin

Yes Yes allways wanted to know ..


----------



## GTmaker

thinking about ordering something myself lately.....

why not order fromt these guys
http://www.dhgate.com/wholesale/dir...ierid=&isfactory=&sus=&searchkey=&catalog=113

Just wondering....

realy looking forward to your comments.


----------



## Mr Yerp

Looking forward to this. A very cool thing you're doing....


----------



## GuitarsCanada

GTmaker said:


> thinking about ordering something myself lately.....
> 
> why not order fromt these guys
> http://www.dhgate.com/wholesale/dirlist.do?act=search&supplierid=&isfactory=&sus=&searchkey=&catalog=113
> 
> Just wondering....
> 
> realy looking forward to your comments.


Dhgate is basically the same thing. They are like a clearing house for all the Chinese manufacturers


----------



## al3d

THey never got the Strat right strangely...not enough demand i guess since you can get a real fender for 200$..LOL


----------



## torndownunit

I have thought of buying a cheap LP Jr copy from that site before to setup for slide. I'd obscure any logo on it, but I just wanted an LP Jr with a 'correct' body shape for cheap. I'll be curious to see how things go.


----------



## urko99

This should be intresting!


----------



## bagpipe

How are you getting it for $183 Cdn? On all the ones i looked at, they seem to be charging $180 US for shipping. I tried selecting "ship to Canada" instead of the US but it didn't change the shipping price. Just curious.


----------



## torndownunit

bagpipe said:


> How are you getting it for $183 Cdn? On all the ones i looked at, they seem to be charging $180 US for shipping. I tried selecting "ship to Canada" instead of the US but it didn't change the shipping price. Just curious.


If it's the site I was on once before, you can filter search results by 'free shipping'.


----------



## Intrepid

I would have extreme difficulty in ordering any of these guitars as it appears they are being "passed off" as Fender, Gibson etc in violation of those manufacturer's Trademarks. In essence, I would be assisting the counterfeiting efforts of the exporter. Too many of these get into Canada and the States and wind up on Ebay and end up in the hands of inexperienced buyers who believe it's the real thing. Sorry, not my cup of tea but I won't pass judgement on this until I see the branding on the Headstock. If it says Jones or Smith or China on the headstock as the brand, that may lessen my revulsion.


----------



## sulphur




----------



## GuitarsCanada

bagpipe said:


> How are you getting it for $183 Cdn? On all the ones i looked at, they seem to be charging $180 US for shipping. I tried selecting "ship to Canada" instead of the US but it didn't change the shipping price. Just curious.


Most everyone I looked at had free shipping to North America. My total bill was $183.00 CDN shipped to the door. Now there is a possibility that I may get hit with some kind of bill for taxes etc. But we will have to see what happens next week.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

al3d said:


> THey never got the Strat right strangely...not enough demand i guess since you can get a real fender for 200$..LOL


Yes, they are absolutely flooded with every LP combination you can think of. Not a huge amount of Strats. Some Tele's in there as well but for the most part its all LP's and the odd PRS and Hollowbody. But I figured if I am going to keep it and maybe throw some new parts at it that I wanted to go Strat since I dont have one any more so we will see what happens. I will never sell the thing, especially if it shows up all tagged in Fender


----------



## Guitar101

I had a look around the site and for $30 more, you could have had an Chinese made Strat that is "Made in America"


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Intrepid said:


> I would have extreme difficulty in ordering any of these guitars as it appears they are being "passed off" as Fender, Gibson etc in violation of those manufacturer's Trademarks. In essence, I would be assisting the counterfeiting efforts of the exporter. Too many of these get into Canada and the States and wind up on Ebay and end up in the hands of inexperienced buyers who believe it's the real thing. Sorry, not my cup of tea but I won't pass judgement on this until I see the branding on the Headstock. If it says Jones or Smith or China on the headstock as the brand, that may lessen my revulsion.


Thats exactly why I am doing it. I am going to take pictures of this thing inside and out and post them here. We are going to find out what the tell tale areas are and get them up here to assist everyone in telling the difference.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

I have played a couple of fakes. Actually not a horrendous guitar, especially when you consider the price. I suppose with the quality control that goes in them that results may vary though.


----------



## TWRC

This should be fun! I'm whipping up a big bowl of popcorn here - who wants in?


----------



## Alex Csank

I am looking forward to hearing your opinions about its quality, sound and playability! It would be great if you can have someone loan you a similar actual Fender to compare, and also if you can have a look at the hardware and electronics.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Alex Csank said:


> I am looking forward to hearing your opinions about its quality, sound and playability! It would be great if you can have someone loan you a similar actual Fender to compare, and also if you can have a look at the hardware and electronics.


I have owned several high end Strats so I know the feel and know the high end hardware that they can come with. I am going to strip this thing down piece by piece and you guys will see it all. This is supposed to be a Custom Shop strat. Basically a $2000 guitar


----------



## Alex Csank

GuitarsCanada said:


> I have owned several high end Strats so I know the feel and know the high end hardware that they can come with. I am going to strip this thing down piece by piece and you guys will see it all. This is supposed to be a Custom Shop strat. Basically a $2000 guitar


Exceedingly groovy!! I await with worm on tongue (baited breath)!


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Actually, I would be very interested in seeing the same thing done with one of the LP's. Maybe I will get one of those at some point too if nobody else does. Need to get these things up and show people what to look for, if we can


----------



## Alex Csank

GuitarsCanada said:


> Actually, I would be very interested in seeing the same thing done with one of the LP's. Maybe I will get one of those at some point too if nobody else does. Need to get these things up and show people what to look for, if we can


That is exactly what I had suggested in another thread... and do it with a number of good guitarists (I have access to a few of those) with a blind-folded test. Maybe I'll do it. There will be a test like that conducted in Vermont at the Quebec/Vermont Amp show in the Spring. Allain and a couple of other members are organizing it I believe.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Alex Csank said:


> That is exactly what I had suggested in another thread... and do it with a number of good guitarists (I have access to a few of those) with a blind-folded test. Maybe I'll do it. There will be a test like that conducted in Vermont at the Quebec/Vermont Amp show in the Spring. Allain and a couple of other members are organizing it I believe.


It is important to have a visual layout of the guitars. If there are areas for potential buyers to be looking for that is what we need. I am not talking Chinese made guitars. I am talking fakes. Which I fully expect this one to be. I do not have any issues with the Chinese making guitars nor people buying them. But I would like a reference to exact copies.


----------



## Latiator

This will certainly be an interesting examination - I'm looking forward to it. I wish you luck receiving the guitar, hopefully you don't get any additional $ dings.


----------



## Petey D

Interesting idea. I should do the same with my fake strat to see if they're consistant. I don't know which "company" actually made mine though.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Petey D said:


> Interesting idea. I should do the same with my fake strat to see if they're consistant. I don't know which "company" actually made mine though.


Here is the write up on mine



> [h=2]Our guitar is the top in china , we send the guitar is what pictuer shown,and i can guide for you to buy super valued guitar form china,no matter you wanna buy this guitar or not .You can contact to ask any question, we provide the good service and if you are wholesaler ,we can have the good deal in future, You can trust . Just contact ,you will find that you are enter magic world of you buiness,thanks[/h][h=2]This guitar is of the finest , and yet it is only fraction of the cost that you would normally pay. You may be wondering how such an amazing product could be so cheap, It is possible because it has been manufactured in china, where labour is cheap. Cheap labour does not mean that has been compromised; all parts are of the highest and have been imported from overseas.[/h]


I have no idea what to expect on the headstock, there are no pictures of it at all other than the tuners. No front pictures. So I am assuming it will say Fender. Maybe not. Lots of body shots front and back


----------



## Alex Csank

GuitarsCanada said:


> It is important to have a visual layout of the guitars. If there are areas for potential buyers to be looking for that is what we need. I am not talking Chinese made guitars. I am talking fakes. Which I fully expect this one to be. I do not have any issues with the Chinese making guitars nor people buying them. But I would like a reference to exact copies.


I see it as a great opportunity to compare three categories of a particular style of guitar. Additionally, I would like to see the LP test to compare the following:

1. a real vintage Gibson LP (ideally a '59/'60 - but that is a rare bird indeed and may not be possible)
2. a high-quality recent Gibson Re-issue
3. a high-quality import like a Tokai or Burny
4. an inexpensive new LP style guitar like an Austin, Agile or SX
5. a Chinese 'fake'

To make the experiment work well, the guitars need to be as similar as possible (pick-ups, body size/weight/ style, neck type and size). Second, the guitars need to be strung with the same strings, using the same cable and plugged into the same amp at the same settings. And third, the guitarist needs to play the same riffs/ songs. Once the guitars have been tested blind-folded for feel, playability and sound, then the blindfolds can be removed and the guitars evaluated for visual quality.

That's what I would like to see anyway. It would help put to rest some of the anecdotal 'opinions' flouted as 'fact'.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

That would be a good test as well. This one I am conducting will be strictly a build quality, parts and labeling test. We may move on to a sound test later on


----------



## torndownunit

The only problem I see is using only one example. The Classic Vibe Squier series is an example of what CAN come out of China with good quality control. I think a good Chinese copy can at a minimum be on par with something like a Korean made Agile. The problem is randomly ordering from a distributer you could get pretty much anything QC wise.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

torndownunit said:


> The only problem I see is using only one example. The Classic Vibe Squier series is an example of what CAN come out of China with good quality control. I think a good Chinese copy can at a minimum be on par with something like a Korean made Agile. The problem is randomly ordering from a distributer you could get pretty much anything QC wise.


This could very well be the case. I chose this one because of the "Custom Shop" branding. It actually does have a Custom Shop label on the back of the headstock. It does not appear to me to be an exact replica of the Fender custom shop logo though. So essentially they are advertising this one to be of the highest quality in terms of materials and build. So that's what drew me to that particular one. The absence of any pictures of the front of the headstock would indicate that its going to be a Fender logo. I could be completely wrong on that but we will have to wait and see. I can tell you that from the pictures, the thing looks real nice.


----------



## keeperofthegood

What is its ETA? Will be interesting, will you be tearing it down to parts to examine them?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

keeperofthegood said:


> What is its ETA? Will be interesting, will you be tearing it down to parts to examine them?


ETA is supposed to be 5-8 days. So maybe by the end of next week. Yes, I am going to tear it down


----------



## edward

Thanks for doing this! I've always wondered what you would get from this type of site. Interesting that many of the vendors on Tradetang offer to send headstock pictures if you request them. I particularly like the picture of the back of the headstock for a Slash AFD LP with "made in usa" stamped on it!


----------



## Fader

The SRV strat was showing a totally blank headstock.


----------



## allthumbs56

GuitarsCanada said:


> Here is the write up on mine
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what to expect on the headstock, there are no pictures of it at all other than the tuners. No front pictures. So I am assuming it will say Fender. Maybe not. Lots of body shots front and back


They "import their parts from overseas" ..... why does that crack me up? ................... but we have "entered a magic world" afterall .....


----------



## allthumbs56

Fader said:


> The SRV strat was showing a totally blank headstock.


The Gretsch said "Made in U.S.A." on the back of the headstock, I suppose that if they're prepared to say that (and I'm assuming it's really a lie) then I don't doubt they'll lose sleep if they put "Fender", "Gretsch", etc on the front.


----------



## Fiveway

They have an ESP "Edipse"!!! 

Nothing says fake like engrish.


----------



## shoretyus

Fiveway said:


> They have an ESP "Edipse"!!!
> 
> Nothing says fake like engrish.


GC should have bought the 11 limited run ES355 with bigsby 
"*1): 100% as the same as the pictures!
2): 100% high !*

http://www.tradetang.com/for-sale/1...ody-Antique-Faded-Cherry/103997-2635210.html#


----------



## Emohawk

Should be interesting indeed. I did some poking around in there and many of the "Gibson" models appear to be re-branded (or unbranded) Epi designs with Gibson headstocks. The Iommi SG they show is definitely the Epi design, and many of the SG's have Epi model numbers (G400, G310, etc). With that said, there are also SGs with the large batwing pickguards like that USA standards, so who knows.

Many of those pictures look suspiciously familiar, might I add. I will say no more.


----------



## J S Moore

Of course they look familiar. The pictures have been lifted from on-line ads, ebay auctions and even from the Gibson's own site. Sometimes they mix in pictures of their product with the real thing.


----------



## smorgdonkey

Just Google "phantom city China" and you'll see the facade that China has going on. A lot of stuff looky so nice and really not so nice.


----------



## bagpipe

smorgdonkey said:


> Just Google "phantom city China" and you'll see the facade that China has going on. A lot of stuff looky so nice and really not so nice.


----------



## J-75

allthumbs56 said:


> The Gretsch said "Made in U.S.A." on the back of the headstock, I suppose that if they're prepared to say that (and I'm assuming it's really a lie) then I don't doubt they'll lose sleep if they put "Fender", "Gretsch", etc on the front.


They need to do their homework:- when was the last time a Gretsch was made in the U.S., and how good was it? 

On a more serious note: That is the part that *really pisses me off* - Who is it that has decided that, in this world economy, it is now OK the make something in one country, and imprint on it the deception that it was made elsewhere?

In my little world of experience, good quality, Classic Vibe Telecaster instruments are (proudly, I hope) stamped "Crafted in China", and, of course, Japanese-made Fender and Gretsch models are stamped "Crafted in Japan". These are instruments that stand on their own, and give you a quality assurance for the price you are paying. They are not fakes, but yet, are coming from the "land of imitation" - _That_ is the standard that Chinese instrument manufacturers _should_ aspire to - it's the old Tokai model. They should dignify themselves, and get out of the sleazy fake-cash-grab model. Build the quality, and the people will come. We shall see what we shall see...


----------



## hardasmum

smorgdonkey said:


> A lot of stuff looky so nice and really not so nice.


Is that meant to be read with an accent?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

J-75 said:


> They need to do their homework:- when was the last time a Gretsch was made in the U.S., and how good was it?
> 
> On a more serious note: That is the part that *really pisses me off* - Who is it that has decided that, in this world economy, it is now OK the make something in one country, and imprint on it the deception that it was made elsewhere?
> 
> In my little world of experience, good quality, Classic Vibe Telecaster instruments are (proudly, I hope) stamped "Crafted in China", and, of course, Japanese-made Fender and Gretsch models are stamped "Crafted in Japan". These are instruments that stand on their own, and give you a quality assurance for the price you are paying. They are not fakes, but yet, are coming from the "land of imitation" - _That_ is the standard that Chinese instrument manufacturers _should_ aspire to - it's the old Tokai model. They should dignify themselves, and get out of the sleazy fake-cash-grab model. Build the quality, and the people will come. We shall see what we shall see...


This is a good point. Why dont they just stamp the things proudly "Made In China" and let the product do the talking.


----------



## Steadfastly

TWRC said:


> This should be fun! I'm *whipping* up a big bowl of popcorn here - who wants in?


We are not that violent with our popcorn! However, we sometimes do this with potatoes and cream.


----------



## Steadfastly

GuitarsCanada said:


> Actually, I would be very interested in seeing the same thing done with one of the LP's. Maybe I will get one of those at some point too if nobody else does. Need to get these things up and show people what to look for, if we can


I wouldn't mind seeing one the Ric copies either. I almost bought one 6 months ago but decided on the Dean Boca instead.


----------



## Steadfastly

GuitarsCanada said:


> Actually, I would be very interested in seeing the same thing done with one of the LP's. Maybe I will get one of those at some point too if nobody else does. Need to get these things up and show people what to look for, if we can


Scott: I have a suggestion to make. I wouldn't mind tossing in a few bucks to purchase a few of these guitars. If we could get everyone to throw in a few dollars until we got enough to buy 2-3 different models and then dismantle them, put the pics and specs on the forum along with some sound clips, that would be cool and educational. Once we were done with them we could have a contest and give them to the winners. This way, we could get a bit of an education, have some fun with it and some would end up getting a free guitar less their small donation. What do you think of the idea?


----------



## Rumble_b

As much as I am against these fakes DHgate has a DGH-335 copy that I can afford. It's making me think again about the whole fake/copy thing!! I don't think I could bring myself to buy it though.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Steadfastly said:


> Scott: I have a suggestion to make. I wouldn't mind tossing in a few bucks to purchase a few of these guitars. If we could get everyone to throw in a few dollars until we got enough to buy 2-3 different models and then dismantle them, put the pics and specs on the forum along with some sound clips, that would be cool and educational. Once we were done with them we could have a contest and give them to the winners. This way, we could get a bit of an education, have some fun with it and some would end up getting a free guitar less their small donation. What do you think of the idea?


Not a bad idea. Could also donate them to a music school or something. Only thing is we dont want any of these fakes getting out into the secondary market. I know this one I am getting will never leave my house so I have no issues with that. If I did ever get rid of it I would most likely remove any markings and just give it to a kid that needs it


----------



## blam

Rumble_b said:



> As much as I am against these fakes DHgate has a DGH-335 copy that I can afford. It's making me think again about the whole fake/copy thing!! I don't think I could bring myself to buy it though.


As much as I would love a DG335 that would just be disrespectful!! If they ever do a second run, I'd be all over it....I'd sell my left testi if I had to.

Looks like someone had already bought one:

"DG335 - Good guitar, some cosmetic issues but guess thats why the real thing is £9K. Colour is a little light for the pelham blue but good to see a copy with correct knobs and toggle etc. Some sanding marks and joins visible through colour and dirt in lacquer finish in places. Frets ends a little rough finished and nut poorly made. Required re-stringing, truss setup, intonation and tuning before it could be played. Actually sounds quite good now though. Not for serious guitarist but worth the cash as a Grohl replica, if only used to hang on the wall. Allguitars - Very fast postage and well packed. If you just work on the little details above you'd sell hundreds."


----------



## Cary

*pulls up a chair*

Can't wait to see how this plays out.


----------



## dcole

After 7 pages, I thought there would be pictures. I guess I'll have to wait.


----------



## al3d

J-75 said:


> On a more serious note: That is the part that *really pisses me off* - Who is it that has decided that, in this world economy, it is now OK the make something in one country, and imprint on it the deception that it was made elsewhere?


WEll..TONES of US places do it..Kramer did it...Fender does it....Jackson and Charvel did it.....


----------



## Emohawk

J S Moore said:


> Of course they look familiar. The pictures have been lifted from on-line ads, ebay auctions and even from the Gibson's own site. Sometimes they mix in pictures of their product with the real thing.


No doubt Jon. I should have been more specific. There's a number of pictures on that site of guitars that are not Gibson/Epi production models (custom colors & configs, that sort of thing) that I have seen on another site claiming these were made to order for their customers as custom builds (and sold for 2-3x the price). It could be coincidence, but the angles & lighting are exactly the same. Those pics might be a lifted but the company I'm thinking of wasn't exactly mainstream...and I think they're defunct now.


----------



## Steadfastly

GuitarsCanada said:


> Not a bad idea. Could also donate them to a music school or something. Only thing is we dont want any of these fakes getting out into the secondary market. I know this one I am getting will never leave my house so I have no issues with that. If I did ever get rid of it I would most likely remove any markings and just give it to a kid that needs it


Well, I'll start the ball rolling by putting in $25.00. Do you think we should start a separate thread for this? We would also have to put a poll together once we had enough donations to decide on which models to bring in. What are your thoughts and those of others as well?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Steadfastly said:


> Well, I'll start the ball rolling by putting in $25.00. Do you think we should start a separate thread for this? We would also have to put a poll together once we had enough donations to decide on which models to bring in. What are your thoughts and those of others as well?


The next one, if we do one, will be a bit. I wont even get this one until at least the end of next week maybe the week after. Then I have to break it all down etc. So once we conclude this little experiment we can open some dialogue on what we might want to do next. If there is interest in doing it I am game.


----------



## smorgdonkey

GuitarsCanada said:


> Not a bad idea. Could also donate them to a music school or something. Only thing is we dont want any of these fakes getting out into the secondary market. I know this one I am getting will never leave my house so I have no issues with that. If I did ever get rid of it I would most likely remove any markings and just give it to a kid that needs it


I think it is a bad idea because it is supporting the counterfeit industry.



al3d said:


> WEll..TONES of US places do it..Kramer did it...Fender does it....Jackson and Charvel did it.....


Kramer, and Charvel did indeed have USA addresses on the neckplates but they did not put Made In USA on them. It was a fine line but still a line. I am unaware of Jackson's involvement in that practice.


----------



## Rumble_b

blam said:


> As much as I would love a DG335 that would just be disrespectful!! If they ever do a second run, I'd be all over it....I'd sell my left testi if I had to.


I agree but it is hard to pass on. I'm a big Foo Fighters fan and ever since I was a kid I have had three guitars I have always wanted, A Trini Lopez(now DG-335), a gold top P90 Les Paul(Thanks to Mike Ness) and a Green PRS CU22(Almost bought one but didn't really like it). The Les Paul I haven't got yet but could at any time and the PRS isn't really wanted any more. I own a red LP and a PRS style guitar so I'm good for now. But I don't know if I will ever have the coin for a Trini or a DG-335. I need one!!


*edit* For some reason I can't attach a pic. So here is a link. http://image.dhgate.com/albu_214073655_00/1.0x0.jpg


----------



## GuitarsCanada

smorgdonkey said:


> I think it is a bad idea because it is supporting the counterfeit industry.


I look at it as a public service. I myself would like to know if there are things we can look for to not get duped. Probably tons more people as well. Until the sale of these things gets stopped somehow we should at least arm ourselves with as much knowledge as possible. Just my opinion of course


----------



## Steadfastly

GuitarsCanada said:


> The next one, if we do one, will be a bit. I wont even get this one until at least the end of next week maybe the week after. Then I have to break it all down etc. So once we conclude this little experiment we can open some dialogue on what we might want to do next. If there is interest in doing it I am game.


Okay, let's wait and see how it goes.


----------



## Steadfastly

smorgdonkey said:


> I think it is a bad idea because it is supporting the counterfeit industry.


The idea is not to support anyone but to do it as fact finding as a group of interested members across Canada. If they are sub par instruments as you and others say, it will be a warning to others to not give them a second look and stay away from them. If they are good value, it will soon become known anyway because of the internet and how quickly information travels, both good and bad.


----------



## bagpipe

Feels like some people are putting a lot into this "experiment". We're only a bunch of guitar players - not the guitar equivalent of the Canada Food Inspection Agency.

I can't imagine how much of a nightmare this must be for the "established" guitar giants - Gibson, Fender, Gretsch etc. Must be some interesting conversations going on in those board rooms.


----------



## Steadfastly

bagpipe said:


> Feels like some people are putting a lot into this "experiment". We're only a bunch of guitar players - not the guitar equivalent of the Canada Food Inspection Agency.
> 
> I can't imagine how much of a nightmare this must be for the "established" guitar giants - Gibson, Fender, Gretsch etc. Must be some interesting conversations going on in those board rooms.


I'm sure it is. That's why they get the big bucks for all the headaches.


----------



## smorgdonkey

Steadfastly said:


> The idea is not to support anyone but to do it as fact finding as a group of interested members across Canada. If they are sub par instruments as you and others say, it will be a warning to others to not give them a second look and stay away from them. If they are good value, it will soon become known anyway because of the internet and how quickly information travels, both good and bad.


The problem is that it will never be 'current' information.

You used to be able to tell a counterfeit Gibson by the lack of fret nibs and a 3 screw truss rod cover. They fixed the 3 screw truss rod cover and many more got taken because as obvious as fret nibs are to someone who knows about them, they are an easty thing to miss for a person unfamiliar with guitars in general and Gibsons. There were messy logos and there were non parallel control placements...those areas were all tweaked. The counterfeit makers will always try to improve their product and make it closer to what they are copying. So, that's why it will be little more than a contribution to their business.

You guys will do what you are going to do but I just thought that you were over-looking that aspect of it.

It won't act as a terstament or a warning about the quality because there are opinions barking loudly on both sides, and, after all, it will just be more internet opinions.


----------



## torndownunit

This is my personal theory on the ethics of these guitars. If we are allowed to import them, then I consider ok for me to do so. Customs, in conjunction with the manufacturers, should be doing something to prevent them coming into the country if they are illegal. 

I hate the idea of anyone reselling these at a profit as well. But... I also believe it's people's responsibility to research any high end gear they are buying and to know about what they are buying.

So for me as a player, I would import one of these for the heck of it if I had the funds. They have some neat budget duo-jet style guitars, which is a model type equivalent very few companies offer. I wouldn't be buying it because it's a counterfeit Duo Jet, I would be buying it because I want a budget version of something similar and no one else is offering it.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

I appreciate what you guys are saying and like the info. I have not really paid attention to them at all or the things to look for because I rarely buy high end stuff from people I dont know. But then I start to hear about all these people getting taken and I think is there anything we can do. So I figure for under 200 I can get one of these things and tear it apart and with help from everyone here we can maybe identify the areas to look for, of any. That's where I was coming from


----------



## Steadfastly

smorgdonkey said:


> The problem is that it will never be 'current' information.
> 
> You used to be able to tell a counterfeit Gibson by the lack of fret nibs and a 3 screw truss rod cover. They fixed the 3 screw truss rod cover and many more got taken because as obvious as fret nibs are to someone who knows about them, they are an easty thing to miss for a person unfamiliar with guitars in general and Gibsons. There were messy logos and there were non parallel control placements...those areas were all tweaked. The counterfeit makers will always try to improve their product and make it closer to what they are copying. So, that's why it will be little more than a contribution to their business.
> 
> You guys will do what you are going to do but I just thought that you were over-looking that aspect of it.
> 
> It won't act as a terstament or a warning about the quality because there are opinions barking loudly on both sides, and, after all, it will just be more internet opinions.


Well, I wasn't really thinking about the fakes and scams, as I would never do it. I was thinking more along really examining the products and see how they stand up against quality guitars. 

Regarding you point on internet opinions, that will undoubtedly happen but this will be subjective because we'll be really looking at all aspects of the guitar since Scott will be taking them apart and posting pictures for us. Regards, Steadfastly


----------



## Steadfastly

GuitarsCanada said:


> I appreciate what you guys are saying and like the info. I have not really paid attention to them at all or the things to look for because I rarely buy high end stuff from people I dont know. But then I start to hear about all these people getting taken and I think is there anything we can do. So I figure for under 200 I can get one of these things and tear it apart and with help from everyone here we can maybe identify the areas to look for, if any. That's where I was coming from


That was my thought too. I've never seen a thread where someone has gone to the bother of really examining these guitars this closely. It's just usually pictures of what the guitar looks like and some opinion from the buyer which is about 99.99% positive.


----------



## Latiator

torndownunit said:


> This is my personal theory on the ethics of these guitars. If we are allowed to import them, then I consider ok for me to do so. Customs, in conjunction with the manufacturers, should be doing something to prevent them coming into the country if they are illegal.
> 
> I hate the idea of anyone reselling these at a profit as well. But... I also believe it's people's responsibility to research any high end gear they are buying and to know about what they are buying.
> 
> So for me as a player, I would import one of these for the heck of it if I had the funds. They have some neat budget duo-jet style guitars, which is a model type equivalent very few companies offer. I wouldn't be buying it because it's a counterfeit Duo Jet, I would be buying it because I want a budget version of something similar and no one else is offering it.


I'm seeing a flip-flop here. First, you mention ethics, which ethically, one does not support the counterfeit guitar industry. Then you say you prefer the government (and manufacturers) to decide what's appropriate to bring across our border - instead of us, the free people of this nation having the choice might I add. Then, you go back to saying it should be "people's responsibility to research". 

I believe it is our responsibility or more accurately, our duty to do the right thing, in this case - in the name of research, Scott is purchasing a likely conterfeit guitar to help enlighten us about what to look for the next time we're in the market for a "legit" guitar.


----------



## torndownunit

Latiator said:


> I'm seeing a flip-flop here. First, you mention ethics, which ethically, one does not support the counterfeit guitar industry. Then you say you prefer the government (and manufacturers) to decide what's appropriate to bring across our border - instead of us, the free people of this nation having the choice might I add. Then, you go back to saying it should be "people's responsibility to research".
> 
> I believe it is our responsibility or more accurately, our duty to do the right thing, in this case - in the name of research, Scott is purchasing a likely conterfeit guitar to help enlighten us about what to look for the next time we're in the market for a "legit" guitar.


You can call it what you want. There is no flip flop. And I don't feel its my 'duty' to do anything. If it's completely ok for me to buy and import an item I buy on the internet, then I will buy it if I want to. If it's made unavailable or is blocked by customs, then I wouldn't buy it. But as of right now, I would not be doing anything wrong importing one of those guitars. I wouldn't be doing anything to violate my ethics, or anything illegal. Importing a guitar for my own use, and reselling it knowing it's counterfeit ARE 2 completely different issues. Just because I'd want to own one of these guitars, it does not mean I would try to scam someone reselling it. That is not 'flip flopping' with ethics. It's just you giving my opinion (combined with some some facts), just like you are giving yours.

All I am stating it common sense regarding research. If you are buying any kind of high end product these days watch out what you buy. But no, it's not my responsibility to see that someone does that.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

torndownunit said:


> You can call it what you want. There is no flip flop. And I don't feel its my 'duty' to do anything. If it's completely ok for me to buy and import an item I buy on the internet, then I will buy it if I want to. If it's made unavailable or is blocked by customs, then I wouldn't buy it. But as of right now, I would not be doing anything wrong importing one of those guitars. I wouldn't be doing anything to violate my ethics, or anything illegal. Importing a guitar for my own use, and reselling it knowing it's counterfeit ARE 2 completely different issues. Just because I'd want to own one of these guitars, it does not mean I would try to scam someone reselling it. That is not 'flip flopping' with ethics. It's just you giving my opinion (combined with some some facts), just like you are giving yours.
> 
> All I am stating it common sense regarding research. If you are buying any kind of high end product these days watch out what you buy. But no, it's not my responsibility to see that someone does that.


Can't really argue with that. If you are not breaking the law, then it is purely a personal choice as to whether you buy one. I am not sure where the law sits on knowingly buying counterfeit items. Not sure there even is a law against it. My main objective on this was to just see if we can identify any areas that may assist people in the future when considering buying a guitar from kijiji or some other open source. Not to say that one might not show up on here, but the chances of that on a forum of this type is greatly reduced.


----------



## Steadfastly

GuitarsCanada said:


> Can't really argue with that. If you are not breaking the law, then it is purely a personal choice as to whether you buy one. I am not sure where the law sits on knowingly buying counterfeit items. Not sure there even is a law against it. My main objective on this was to just see if we can identify any areas that may assist people in the future when considering buying a guitar from kijiji or some other open source. Not to say that one might not show up on here, but the chances of that on a forum of this type is greatly reduced.


There is likely no law on BUYING counterfeit items for personal use. It's the act of buying them with the intent to sell them for profit. So the seller could be charged but not the buyer it it's for personal use only.


----------



## Latiator

torndownunit said:


> You can call it what you want. There is no flip flop. And I don't feel its my 'duty' to do anything. If it's completely ok for me to buy and import an item I buy on the internet, then I will buy it if I want to. If it's made unavailable or is blocked by customs, then I wouldn't buy it. But as of right now, I would not be doing anything wrong importing one of those guitars. I wouldn't be doing anything to violate my ethics, or anything illegal. Importing a guitar for my own use, and reselling it knowing it's counterfeit ARE 2 completely different issues. Just because I'd want to own one of these guitars, it does not mean I would try to scam someone reselling it. That is not 'flip flopping' with ethics. It's just you giving my opinion (combined with some some facts), just like you are giving yours.
> 
> All I am stating it common sense regarding research. If you are buying any kind of high end product these days watch out what you buy. But no, it's not my responsibility to see that someone does that.


First off, ethics and law are two different things. Ethically, supporting the counterfeit guitar industry is wrong on many fronts that are needless to point out. Yes, it's not against the law, you're welcome to do whatever you please. If you don't feel however, that you have a duty as a citizen, a musician and a workforce contributor, to your fellow comrades then you're off the deep end my friend. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should slap someone's pee-pee for supporting a fraudulent industry but *I feel *that citizens do have a duty to support fair labour compensation and lend a hand to those who are at risk of buying fraudulent guitars.


----------



## sulphur

I watched this last night. A pretty good review.

[video=youtube;mKpvNumauNQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKpvNumauNQ[/video]


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Good find, and interesting as well


----------



## torndownunit

Latiator said:


> First off, ethics and law are two different things. Ethically, supporting the counterfeit guitar industry is wrong on many fronts that are needless to point out. Yes, it's not against the law, you're welcome to do whatever you please. If you don't feel however, that you have a duty as a citizen, a musician and a workforce contributor, to your fellow comrades then you're off the deep end my friend. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should slap someone's pee-pee for supporting a fraudulent industry but *I feel *that citizens do have a duty to support fair labour compensation and lend a hand to those who are at risk of buying fraudulent guitars.


The key word is that you 'feel' that is what someone should do. I don't agree. I have my own ethics. I explained what my reasons would be for buying one of these guitars in the original post that was quoted, but that was left out of the post. Those are my reasons, and I don't feel I am doing anything wrong. I know we are just discussing this, not debating it. I just think it's a valid point that people importing these guitars are not doing anything wrong legally. What is legal or illegal plays a role in a person's ethics even if they aren't the same thing.

Yours or my ethics aside though, what GC is doing will be valuable information I think. It will educate people on what they are buying. It will allow people who don't see anything wrong with ordering these guitars to see the product, it will allow people trying to avoid counterfeits for information for doing so. So it will be a balanced, informative thread.


----------



## Diablo

Interesting idea, that I'm in favor of.In fact, I'm the owner of what I'm 90% certain is a counterfeit epiphone zakk Wylde Lp. Ive had it a few years, and since it plays fairly well and looks cool, I'll likely keep it. But if anyone's interested, I don't mind taking some detailed pics of it. But I'm fairly lazy, so other than unscrewing some of the plastic covers, I won't be digging any deeper into it. But if someone in my area is keen and knows their way around putting together guitars, I'd be willing to lend this one out for a total tear down with the expectation that it would be returned complete and playable


----------



## Latiator

Fair enough TDU, I have no qualms. 

That's a _great_ video Sulphur, needless to say I wouldn't mind seeing the pickups pulled out and some internal comparisons but you can't win 'em all


----------



## Electraglide

I agree with torndownunit. In Canada, right now, these guitars seem to be legal. If I bought things off the internet I would not have any problem buying one of these guitars. If I bought one thinking it's an authentic brand name guitar then that's my problem. 
As far as GC buying one of these, playing it, taking it apart, putting it back together and playing it again and reporting on that; that's valuable info that we need and can learn from. And pass on to those we know if we feel like. Right now there's almost 400 people online here, on a forum with almost 10,000 members. From all walks of life. That's a lot of ways to get the info out there. 
Me, I'll wait until the pics are posted.


----------



## Steadfastly

sulphur said:


> I watched this last night. A pretty good review.
> 
> [video=youtube;mKpvNumauNQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKpvNumauNQ[/video]


Sulphur: I know where you were online last night. I watched it sometime over the weekend too. It would be interesting to find out which factory it came from. For a $400.00 guitar, it's actually not bad at all from the review. Regards, Steadfastly


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Diablo said:


> Interesting idea, that I'm in favor of.In fact, I'm the owner of what I'm 90% certain is a counterfeit epiphone zakk Wylde Lp. Ive had it a few years, and since it plays fairly well and looks cool, I'll likely keep it. But if anyone's interested, I don't mind taking some detailed pics of it. But I'm fairly lazy, so other than unscrewing some of the plastic covers, I won't be digging any deeper into it. But if someone in my area is keen and knows their way around putting together guitars, I'd be willing to lend this one out for a total tear down with the expectation that it would be returned complete and playable


That would be great, but you should probably make certain it is a fake, or may we would find that out by looking at it. All info is good in my opinion. If you do though, start a new thread. I think once I get mine I will start a new thread on it to keep everything clean.


----------



## big frank

I can tell you right now; if I brought that green Fake Custom over to my friends house and told him it was a Gibson he would believe me and would be jealous.
He owns a Gibson Les Paul Studio Gem.
I don't think many people would peg the video guitar as a fake unless they were savy guitar forum-watching and magazine-reading people.
There is a definite difference in sound between the green fake and the black real custom; but not so different as to scream FAKE.
I wouldn't be able to tell a fake Rolex from a real one either, if it was done as well as that guitar.
Change the pickups, changes the tuners and then what?
Hope this fakery can be stopped or a whole lot of folks are going to be scammed.


----------



## ed2000

Are the 'Serial Numbers' identical or will they be sequential? Some agency should keep an internet database of the import clone guitars. They should make portable carbon14 dating units that can be taken to guitar resellers to check the merchandise.

DHGate has a Martin D45 with a serial # showing manu date of the mid 1940's.


----------



## bobb

ed2000 said:


> Are the 'Serial Numbers' identical or will they be sequential? Some agency should keep an internet database of the import clone guitars. They should make portable carbon14 dating units that can be taken to guitar resellers to check the merchandise.
> 
> DHGate has a Martin D45 with a serial # showing manu date of the mid 1940's.


I'm too lazy to go searching through my old posts but a few years ago I posted some serial number pics from DHgate. Three different "Fender" headstocks with identical serial numbers.


----------



## sulphur

I agree that what Scott is doing is a good thing and could possibly save someone here some dough.

I'm not against copies, I have three MIJ LPs, 
I'm against trying to pass them off with fake serial numbers and build locations.

In that video, yes, they were pretty close in tone. The real Gibby won out by a hair.
As mentioned though, change the pups out and tuners and boom, it's a very close rival for a fraction of the cost.

That again brings the question around to why not just put MIC on them and be proud of the build.

I have less problem with someone just buying one to keep, it's the resellers trying to cash in that gets my goat.


----------



## Steadfastly

sulphur said:


> I agree that what Scott is doing is a good thing and could possibly save someone here some dough.
> 
> I'm not against copies, I have three MIJ LPs,
> I'm against trying to pass them off with fake serial numbers and build locations.
> 
> In that video, yes, they were pretty close in tone. The real Gibby won out by a hair.
> As mentioned though, change the pups out and tuners and boom, it's a very close rival for a fraction of the cost.
> 
> That again brings the question around to why not just put MIC on them and be proud of the build.
> 
> *I have less problem with someone just buying one to keep, it's the resellers trying to cash in that gets my goat.*


I agree. It's pretty slimy and I would avoid buying any guitars from that company if I could, as difficult as that may be.


----------



## sulphur

These guitars will only make the Kijiji/CL/Ebay experience that much worse.

I'll stick to this forum for used gear. There's plenty here.


----------



## torndownunit

sulphur said:


> These guitars will only make the Kijiji/CL/Ebay experience that much worse.
> 
> I'll stick to this forum for used gear. There's plenty here.


For me personally, I would never be buying a really high end guitar off Kijiji anyway. I would be sticking to places like this forum, or some trusted private sellers I know.


----------



## keeperofthegood

sulphur said:


> I agree... etc...



I agree with the sentiments too! 

Thing is this; apart from the current flavour of politics in China and the low level of ethics that has resulted in many of its people, that region of the planet has had many millennia of very complicated and rich history. Predates much of Europe too considering how many things we take as European were really Chinese inventions; from pasta to paper money to stargazing.

I also enjoyed the video. Scott will you do one? Would have been cool if he took his all apart too and showed the hardware pieces individually against the non-fake parts. I wonder what the mass differences are, between the metal castings and the granularity of the metal too. Pound of feathers vs a pound of lead and all that. Sometimes the "name" puts more value than it should on an item.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

keeperofthegood said:


> I agree with the sentiments too!
> 
> Thing is this; apart from the current flavour of politics in China and the low level of ethics that has resulted in many of its people, that region of the planet has had many millennia of very complicated and rich history. Predates much of Europe too considering how many things we take as European were really Chinese inventions; from pasta to paper money to stargazing.
> 
> I also enjoyed the video. Scott will you do one? Would have been cool if he took his all apart too and showed the hardware pieces individually against the non-fake parts. I wonder what the mass differences are, between the metal castings and the granularity of the metal too. Pound of feathers vs a pound of lead and all that. Sometimes the "name" puts more value than it should on an item.


Unable to do video right now I don't even have a camera at this point. Just stills


----------



## keeperofthegood

Awww that is ok  Still is good too!! Better image quality in them especially for getting in good on the goods.


----------



## torndownunit

I gotta say the thing that shocked me the most about the video was the sound of the guitar. I expected there to be a way bigger gap between the fake and the Gibson. Yes the Gibson has a slight edge, but I didn't not expect things to be remotely that close. I figured even if they copied the construction reasonably well, the electronics would still be garbage therefore the guitare would sound like it plugged in. Doesn't seem to be the case.


----------



## sulphur

Ya tdu, I expected a bigger difference myself.

Throw a couple of aftermarket pups and electronics, maybe some tuners and a nut if needed.
Your still well under a thousand bucks. Hmmmm.


----------



## Petey D

^ Indeed. I was pretty impressed with how good the fake sounded too.


----------



## Milkman

You'd hear a much bigger difference between two players than between the two guitars.



It's what I've been saying for years.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

No ship notification yet so probably wont see the guitar until middle of next week or later.


----------



## Alex Csank

Milkman said:


> You'd hear a much bigger difference between two players than between the two guitars. It's what I've been saying for years.


Yup... I have a shatload of nice guitars and gear, but each and every one of them still sounds crappy when I play them! Go figure! kqoct


----------



## Milkman

Yup, I can make a $100,000. Les Paul sound like a Silvertone.


----------



## bluzfish

What do you think? Fake? The first thing I noticed was the gold coloured screws attaching the PU rings. It was mentioned in one of the fakes videos that only Epiphones and fakes use gold screws there - Gibson always uses black screws on black surrounds.

http://edmonton.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and...Les-Paul-Custom-Holy-Grail-W0QQAdIdZ350639197


----------



## Alex Csank

Milkman said:


> Yup, I can make a $100,000. Les Paul sound like a Silvertone.


Hey...I resemble that remark! Oh, and what's wrong with a Sivertone? :sport-smiley-002:


----------



## Milkman

Alex Csank said:


> Hey...I resemble that remark! Oh, and what's wrong with a Sivertone? :sport-smiley-002:


LOL, perhaps I should have said, a skilful player can make a Silvertone sound like a $100,000. Les Paul


Same meaning I guess. The point is, (and I think you agree), the player matters much more than the hardware.


----------



## shoretyus

bluzfish said:


> What do you think? Fake? The first thing I noticed was the gold coloured screws attaching the PU rings. It was mentioned in one of the fakes videos that only Epiphones and fakes use gold screws there - Gibson always uses black screws on black surrounds.
> 
> http://edmonton.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and...Les-Paul-Custom-Holy-Grail-W0QQAdIdZ350639197


It has to be real.. and it's a good price.. usually they are in the $200k range. 

I always wonder that if they are that good why are they always for sale? Of course I always wonder about the amount of LP's that are for sale around here.


----------



## Alex Csank

bluzfish said:


> What do you think? Fake? The first thing I noticed was the gold coloured screws attaching the PU rings. It was mentioned in one of the fakes videos that only Epiphones and fakes use gold screws there - Gibson always uses black screws on black surrounds.
> 
> http://edmonton.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and...Les-Paul-Custom-Holy-Grail-W0QQAdIdZ350639197


Screws can and often are replaced. However, before I would buy that guitar, I would have it checked out by an expert and have the serial number checked. I would also want a clear history of the guitar and I would check out the seller (at least making sure of address, actual name, etc.). Finally (and this is the deal clincher!), the asking price for a real 1957 should be somewhere North of $90K! So I say: FAKE!!!!


----------



## sulphur

I agree with Alex, screws can easily be changed out.

I think that if it's a new custom with gold screws, then you'd know.

If it were real, that price seems a little too good to be true, so...


----------



## traynor_garnet

I wish I didn't have to choose between paying a ludicrous amount of money for a corporate logo or a quazi-legal guitar built with quazi-slave labour.

TG


----------



## Milkman

traynor_garnet said:


> I wish I didn't have to choose between paying a ludicrous amount of money for a corporate logo or a quazi-legal guitar built with quazi-slave labour.
> 
> TG


I agree, neither choice is appealing.

There are legitimate and high quality guitars available that aren't counterfeit knockoffs of course.


----------



## Alex Csank

traynor_garnet said:


> I wish I didn't have to choose between paying a ludicrous amount of money for a corporate logo or a quazi-legal guitar built with quazi-slave labour.
> 
> TG


There are lots of very good quality, yet affordable LP style guitars available which are NOT fakes, nor are they built by 12 year-olds paid 25 cents a day. Companies like Agile, SX, and of course Epiphone make some pretty darned good new ones, while if you prefer an aged guitar, Tokai, Burny, Univox and other Japanese companies built some very nice guitars from as early as the early '70s.


----------



## torndownunit

Alex Csank said:


> There are lots of very good quality, yet affordable LP style guitars available which are NOT fakes, nor are they built by 12 year-olds paid 25 cents a day. Companies like Agile, SX, and of course Epiphone make some pretty darned good new ones, while if you prefer an aged guitar, Tokai, Burny, Univox and other Japanese companies built some very nice guitars from as early as the early '70s.


SX are made in China. Do you really know anything about their factory conditions?


----------



## Alex Csank

torndownunit said:


> SX are made in China. Do you really know anything about their factory conditions?


I'm no expert and I haven't actually visited the factories. However, I believe that it is pretty safe to assume that companies like Ibanez, Fender, Epiphone and other big name parent companies set standards which would make sure they don't get bitten in the ass later on, especially as scandals like the 'Nike' shoe factory significantly affected Nike sales. 

Here's a link to a bit more info: http://www.tdpri.com/forum/bad-dog-cafe/154602-agile-douglas-guitars-plant-makes-them.html


----------



## cheezyridr

Alex Csank said:


> I'm no expert and I haven't actually visited the factories. However, I believe that it is pretty safe to assume that companies like Ibanez, Fender, Epiphone and other big name parent companies set standards which would make sure they don't get bitten in the ass later on, especially as scandals like the 'Nike' shoe factory significantly affected Nike sales.
> 
> Here's a link to a bit more info: http://www.tdpri.com/forum/bad-dog-cafe/154602-agile-douglas-guitars-plant-makes-them.html



the problem at apple's factory didn't seem to slow them down any


----------



## torndownunit

cheezyridr said:


> the problem at apple's factory didn't seem to slow them down any


Ya I think it's all just assumption when it comes to knowing what's going on in these factories. It all depends on the company, because I don't think anyone really enforces many regulations in China. I don't think we can really know what any company is up to there, and you can't really base anything of the companies reputation. In an ideal world you could, but it's not an ideal world.


----------



## Morkolo

Alex Csank said:


> There are lots of very good quality, yet affordable LP style guitars available which are NOT fakes, nor are they built by 12 year-olds paid 25 cents a day. Companies like Agile, SX, and of course Epiphone make some pretty darned good new ones, while if you prefer an aged guitar, Tokai, Burny, Univox and other Japanese companies built some very nice guitars from as early as the early '70s.


Some of those old '70s Japanese guitars turned out to be better than the models they were copying.


----------



## 4345567

__________


----------



## Milkman

Damn child labour laws.

In previous generations, kids as young as 6 or 7 were allowed to work and make a living sweeping under the textile looms and other enriching jobs.

Damn loony left put an end to all that.


----------



## shoretyus

Ya almost pointless having children these days...



Milkman said:


> Damn child labour laws.
> 
> In previous generations, kids as young as 6 or 7 were allowed to work and make a living sweeping under the textile looms and other enriching jobs.
> 
> Damn loony left put an end to all that.


----------



## Alex Csank

shoretyus said:


> Ya almost pointless having children these days...


Wait, you mean we're NOT supposed to support them until they are well into their adult years?!?! Wow! ME FAIL!!!kqoct

So, back to the topic: Scott, please let us know when the 'thing' gets to you!!


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Alex Csank said:


> Wait, you mean we're NOT supposed to support them until they are well into their adult years?!?! Wow! ME FAIL!!!kqoct
> 
> So, back to the topic: Scott, please let us know when the 'thing' gets to you!!


Will do. Looks like it won't be this week for sure


----------



## bagpipe

131 posts and the guitar hasn't even arrived yet. This thread should have some legs!


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Guitar has been shipped. If we are lucky it will hit the door by the end of the week


----------



## sulphur




----------



## GuitarsCanada

sulphur said:


>


I only wish thats what showed up at the door


----------



## Morkolo

GuitarsCanada said:


> I only wish thats what showed up at the door


You and me both! :food-smiley-004:


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Yea, and the wife would answer it.


----------



## astyles

Why would you wish for your guitar to come in multiple boxes ?? ...


----------



## GuitarsCanada

astyles said:


> Why would you wish for your guitar to come in multiple boxes ?? ...


Geez, I never noticed that in the pic...


----------



## Hired Goon

Boxes? What Boxes?


----------



## Jaybo

I'm really interested to see how this turns out. I have a friend in town who got a $400ish Les Paul off of tradetang - and it is really nice. Replace a few parts and electronics (which us GASers do anyways) and it is a really nice guitar, for a really nice price.


----------



## neldom

It would seem they are already tainting the golden kijiji experience.

http://saskatoon.kijiji.ca/c-buy-an...ibson-Les-Paul-Ace-Frehley-W0QQAdIdZ352619974

Although this fellow certainly didn't go to much effort.


----------



## sulphur

neldom said:


> It would seem they are already tainting the golden kijiji experience.
> 
> http://saskatoon.kijiji.ca/c-buy-an...ibson-Les-Paul-Ace-Frehley-W0QQAdIdZ352619974
> 
> Although this fellow certainly didn't go to much effort.


Ha! Looks like a stock photo from the site.
I wonder what the right price is?


----------



## Jaybo

sulphur said:


> Ha! Looks like a stock photo from the site.
> I wonder what the right price is?


No kidding. Hope he's no trying to sucker somebody. I saw a few Kijiji adds that looked suspicious last year.


----------



## Petey D

^ I know what you mean. Look on Kijiji Toronto, and you'll see a few suspicious adds a day. lol


----------



## keeperofthegood

Hey Scott. Can you also do up the wiring diagram and values and measure up the pickups? Maybe someone on the forum that builds pickups can compare winding tech and magnets?


----------



## GuitarsCanada

I just checked the tracking on this thing, its still sitting in China. Made its way over to one of the main ports.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Have you thought of doing a video blog for it? Along with detailed stills I think it could be a great resource.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Jim DaddyO said:


> Have you thought of doing a video blog for it? Along with detailed stills I think it could be a great resource.


Details stills are going to be done for sure. I have had not had a video cam though in several years. Should probably invest in one again


----------



## ed2000

kijiji...les pauls
http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-...es-Pauls-guitar-best-offer-W0QQAdIdZ353776659


----------



## Alex Csank

ed2000 said:


> kijiji...les pauls
> http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-...es-Pauls-guitar-best-offer-W0QQAdIdZ353776659


Yeah, but what if....? I have personally had weirder things fall into my lap!


----------



## cheezyridr

i emailed the ace frehely guitar guy from an address i use solely for things like this. i haven't had a response yet.


----------



## J S Moore

That one looks like it could be legit. The bridge is right and the number isn't the usual one for counterfeits.


----------



## cheezyridr

still no answer though


----------



## Guest

I didn't hear from the seller of my el degas for three months.
Out of the blue he e's me 'sorry, I've been away. are you still interested?'
Another thought. Maybe the ace guy is seeing how many offers come
his way before responding.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Guitar has arrived. First pictures coming up shortly.

New thread for the teardown created here

http://www.guitarscanada.com/showthread.php?t=46809&p=396502#post396502


----------



## middleagedfart

Steadfastly said:


> I wouldn't mind seeing one the Ric copies either. I almost bought one 6 months ago but decided on the Dean Boca instead.


You ask and I deliver..


























Actually a nice guitar. Solid chambered mahogany with laminated maple top. Hardware would need to be upgraded. I found it not bright enough (most likely due to the mahogany body). Traded it away..

Actually, most guitars are made in China nowadays. I've picked up 4 "off branded" guitars from Ebay in the past while. Wood wise and general assembly they are good. Finish is always a toss up in quality. Weak areas - pickups and tuners. Two things that can be readily remedied and for not a huge amount of money...


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Appears to be a decent looking guitar. I see they left the Ric name off the headstock at least.


----------



## middleagedfart

Yes, thankfully. I had two ricks before ( 325 and 615) and they were maple construction. Much brighter sound. I would consider buying another as long as it was made of maple. The neck on that one was MILES better than the real Ricks though.

I have found that one finds a better deal buying a off branded guitar and upgrading the hardware. I have a es135 copy (full hollowbody, maple neck, maple laminate top and back) which I paid $100 off ebay for. Finish was ok actually, I just replaced tuners and installed a set of Epi 57 classics. For a total investment of $150 (including the initial cost) this guitar sings! 











And for $138, I picked up an SG copy. Solid mahogany neck and body (no ply). Beautiful neck, real MOP inlay. Replaced the nut with a graphite one. Installed Entwhistle HVX's and spraque orange drops. Kluson copy tuners - Grand total of $200 and ballsy tone.












So if one goes in with low expectations you can be wonderfully surprised with what you get,


----------

