# At the guitar shop today...



## lolligagger (Feb 4, 2006)

So, I'm at the guitar shop today and there was this guy hell-bent on dropping more than $2K on a new Taylor. He's obviously excited about the idea, and talking to everyone in the guitar room while he plays the same three chords over and over again...you know, the good ones (no it wasn't me playing, but it could have been).  

I overheard him asking for a discount, or for the store to eat the GST because he wants the guitar today, is seriously commited, but like anybody else he simply wants to feel he got a great deal. Can't blame him...who pays sticker price for a new car? Anyway, I see the sales guy and the manager looking at list price on the computer and they are shaking their heads...no special deals today!

I have to wonder...are they selling so many guitars these days that bartering is out of the question? Is the profit margin so tight that a store simply can't afford to give a customer a break? 

I see posts on other forums where a guy can pick up a $2K Martin at half the price by shopping electronically. Despite the risks, this might be the way to go for my next purchase if I don't find a nice private sale.


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## SCREEM (Feb 2, 2006)

It's hard to get a deal out of them, they only seem to do it on blem items, took me an hour at Steve's to get the sales dude to knock off $30 on my strat


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## lolligagger (Feb 4, 2006)

*Avenue/L&M*

Exactly my point teleman! Back in the day when Avenue was on the north side by the Royal Alex their pricing was a lot more reasonable. If I had lick of sense I would have bought me a Guild acoustic when I had the chance...and I am still repenting for letting a Gretsch Super-Axe fall through my fingers (not literally). 

I mentioned electronic shopping, but what I meant was online shopping...I don't like to see my hard earned dollars go south of the border , but I also like to keep as many of them in my pocket as possible. Do you know of any Canadian-based internet sellers?

Maybe we should start our own internet based music business...we could call it tele-gagger or lolli-man...actually the second suggestion is a little queer.


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## imbackagain2 (Feb 6, 2006)

I think it's a case of people geting greedy. Everybody wants to make more money. Ive turned to ebay or just hunting for a shop cause chances are your going to find it cheaper in the states. I recently bought a prs cu 24. At L&M it was like 3995+tax. So I did some hunting on the net. Found the guitar at a shop in conneticut. The guy game me a deal and I got it through the internet. After shipping and brokerage fees and what ever else they ding ya for my total came to 3100$ Why would anyone pay more when you can get it for less. Money crazed mentality.


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## imbackagain2 (Feb 6, 2006)

totally agree and can't wait to pay less for quality instruments


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Alot of Canadian guitar stores use the list price to get their prices. Historically if a guitar listed for $1,000US, they would put it on the rack for $1,000CDN. In the US, the street price might be $600US. When the exchange rate was high, the $600US street price ended up being $1,000CDN, so it was equal to what you would pay in Canada anyway. Now with the exchange rate being what it is today, these stores are still trying to use this pricing scheme but the conversion rate has made the US guitar store prices cheaper than buying in Canada. The $600US street price is now closer to $750CDN..............


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## SCREEM (Feb 2, 2006)

I got my strat at Steve's for $1365.00 list $1899...here's musician's friend price:

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Guitar/Electric?sku=511142

I paid more, but not much more.


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

My experience was the opposite. I just bought a $2700.00 guitar at L&McQ. I did research some US internet sellers. The lowest price I was quoted, for the same guitar, was $1980.00. Once I factored in the exchange rate, shipping, and DUTY, L&McQ's price was actually lower. Plus, I got to play and hear the guitar I was buying.


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## lolligagger (Feb 4, 2006)

*Good to see you here GG*

Gilliangirl,

You made it over from the AGF! Good to see you here! So do tell...what did you buy?


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## IM Canadian (Feb 24, 2006)

The proplem with buying on Ebay or other net shops is that you can't play and listen to the guitar. If you played 5 guitars of the same model there might only be one that you like. It's one thing if you are spending $200 but if you are looking at $2000 + this is very important to me.


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

lolligagger said:


> Gilliangirl,
> 
> You made it over from the AGF! Good to see you here! So do tell...what did you buy?


Hi Lolligagger!

I bought a Gibson Historic Southern Jumbo! I love my new guitar. I need to post some pictures on the AGF and the Gibson forum, but I can't stop playing the guitar long enuf to take pics! It's funny... it's like the new baby in the house... if I'm not playing it, I'm staring at it  

How's your guitar? Were you able to resolve the problem at the shop?


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## alistairthegreat (Feb 25, 2006)

*long and mcquade.*

l&m bought lakeshore music in burlington a couple of years ago and thier pricing went rigid effective immediately.
i wanted to buy a used les paul studio. it was banged up but played well and so i offered $800 cashfor it on a $1000 sticker. the clerk hummed and hahed, typed into a calculator and offered a $30 dollar discount. he didn`t make the sale.
the process is typical of big box retail. they have the suppliers rapped up and they are squeezing out the smaller shops so that we have less choice. ihave known the owner of the burlington l&m for over twenty years and he won`t move on prices. i have easily spent $10,000 there over the years. now that my kids are getting into guitar i`m going to take my business elsewhere. as the internet opens up new markets. it will effect pricing but customs will get strict on tarrifs as well.
my new ovation is chinese by the way. horrid electronics but it plays like a dream. $300.
suppliers have a lot to do with pricing. it`s not all the retailer`s fault. it`s a conspiracy. business. if you have to have a les paul or a marshall amp then you are going to have to carry the weight.
try laney and hamer.


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## lolligagger (Feb 4, 2006)

*no whining rule in effect*

I am working under a self-imposed no whining rule, so the short answer is no. Okay, just a little self pity...they basically told me they were sorry but there was nothing to be done. I took my guitar and my future business elsewhere.

Congratulations on you new Gibson...the green-eyed monster is alive and well within me!


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## Guest (Feb 28, 2006)

That surprises me too. It's "expected" that you will get a deal from the price tag. Even if you just buy stings and inexpensive stuff, most stores will round down the price of all the items that you are purchasing so that you get a sense that you're getting a deal and that you're a valued customer for them and that they want you to come back.

If you're buying a couple sets of strings at 11.95 a piece, they'll usually give it to you at 11 each and no tax or something along that line.

Especially on 2k $ items, saving you the GST is just about the right thing to do if they want you back. They have to be comfortable giving that type of discount anyway since that they will probably do it at a certain point here and there during the course of a year with various promotional sales.


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## Calgary Slim (Feb 21, 2006)

Gilliangirl said:


> My experience was the opposite. I just bought a $2700.00 guitar at L&McQ. I did research some US internet sellers. The lowest price I was quoted, for the same guitar, was $1980.00. Once I factored in the exchange rate, shipping, and DUTY, L&McQ's price was actually lower. Plus, I got to play and hear the guitar I was buying.


I had a similar experience at L&M for a Larrivee. Cost me $1100, and I couldn't beat that with anything I found online from the U.S.

It suddenly occurs to me...that guitar was made in Canada.


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## coyoteblue (Feb 8, 2006)

I did some research into this whole question a few months ago and had quite a thread going on both FenderForum and Gearpage.net. It sure is crazy that you can get a new guitar from the US 20% cheaperl, including tax and shipping than you can walking a few blocks to your nearest guitar store. From what I've been told, the margin here is not that great and crossing the border brings in a middle man especially for Fender. 

I've found the downtown store of L&M very flexible, and they will meet prices of other stores if they can call and verify. Trades are good at L&M. I even wrote the head of L&M about this when I was trying to buy a Strat at their North York store, but nothing much came of that though they sounded willlinging to deal. I was going to get 10% off a shopworn EJ Strat that had been in the store for 6 months...big deal when you can buy a brand new from the US, including tax and shipping for 20% less than that! 

Another thing is that stores go by list prices to figure out selling price but they don't factor in the strength of the Canadian dollar. That's another reason why buying direct from the US is the way to go. So much for free trade, which doesn't mean a hell of a lot for buying guitars. I was surprised to find that Australia and the US have an agreement where taxes are not applied going both ways. That would be nice for both stores and individuals, but our government could care less about an issue like that. Big business gets tons of breaks, individual consumers none. Even buying a $25 accessory from the US can lead to tax and processing charge, whereas going the other way, you can buy something worth $200 US before getting dinged. 

For those in the Toronto area, I think the Guitar Shop in Port Credit is the way to go. They'll deal with price immediately and up front.


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## Gilliangirl (Feb 26, 2006)

Another factor (perhaps a minor one) is that I'm getting a free/complimentary pro set-up from L&McQ for my guitar, because I bought it there. If you buy online, you may find the action not to your liking, and end up footing the bill for a $60.00 set-up at your local shop.


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## JohnnyCanuck (Feb 5, 2006)

It's been my experiance that stores who won't offer any discounts (even something as token as taking off the price of GST) don't have any or enough competition. Last year in town I bought an EP7, I got over $200 off, I traded it this winter for a new taylor and some $$, and I after the trade value was factored out, he game me $225 off. I just bought a martin backpacker and he gave me almost 15% off.


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## lolligagger (Feb 4, 2006)

*Hhhmmmm.....*

I still have a hard time accepting that a store owner/manager cannot bend on price. I think they could lower the price a little if they actually _wanted _to, but at the end of the day they really don't _have _to. 

I really don't think it is uncommon for any retail business to jack up the price of their merchandise 100 - 300%. Its the whole supply and demand thing. When demand falls off you can buy something 40% of the original price, and the stores are probably still making money.

A guitar probably tends to be an emotional purchase for most of us. Just walking in to the guitar room we are already interested in taking the bait...its simply a matter of seeing if the sales guy can keep us on the line once we are hooked.


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## dudley doright (Apr 6, 2006)

*I have a good relationship with the local L&M....*

.........and I just tell the Manager that in the US the price of a certain model is XXX and duty plus shipping comes up to about 5% of that price. I will then ask him to either match it or give me the best deal. Most of the time, he will give me that price as long as he is within his allowable margin. I think all store should be able to give you a discount but you just have to talk to the right person. Steve's Music is an exemption. I will not buy anything from them unless I am really sure that it is what I needed. The return policy of Steve is written to protect them and not the customer.


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## speedster (Nov 11, 2009)

I recently went into a local music shop a couple hours North of Toronto, they are the biggest shop in the area although there is another shop in the same town handling lower level equipment.

I was pricing out a new Martin HD16RLHS which is listed on most major US sites for sale at $1999 - $2200 with Martin list pricing at $2699. I had got a quote from a shop in Oakville of the same price as the US at $1999 and they had one in their shop for immediate pickup.

As I heard and read this was a killer guitar for the bucks I was considering buying one for a 3rd guitar to have around.

I asked the sales guy what their very best price would be for the HD16RLSH and he said wow great guitar we just sold one a month ago. I said yeah I hear they are great for the money how about that price.

He quoted me the list price from Martin and I said yeah I know the list price but that's not what I asked. He came back with $2200 as his best price....

I then responded that I could drive to Oakville and pick one up there for $1999 and that I really would like to buy local, the manager then said hang on let me crunch the numbers a little, After the calculater was punched a few times he said okay the best I can do is $2000 and tax...

So he came down from his best first price again, I should mention I do buy quite a bit of stuff through this store so they do know me... but I think the moral of the story is to keep chipping at them. 

If they are hungry and want the sale they'll move......

I ended up not buying the HD 16RLSH as I decided with my two other Rosewood guitars that I didn't need a 3rd one.

Instead I bought a used D18 Golden Era 1934 for approx. the same price and they are all mahogany cannons.


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## snacker (Jun 26, 2008)

it depends who you talk to - at L&M, some of the staff won't even match a local competitors price, others will give you 10% if you ask - i usually shop at the smaller stores anyway - most of the time, they'll beat anything L&M or Steve's would give ya


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## Steve1962 (Oct 30, 2009)

Doesn't the exchange rate have a lot to do with it?

If a store in Canada buys a guitar when the dollar is, say $1.00 (USD) to $1.25 (CDN), I would think it would be a lot of tougher for the store to come down on price. When it's $1.05 (CDN), well, not so much.

Also, I would think that their landed cost (what it costs to get the guitar into the store) would be something to consider, given that Canada has GST (something that Americans don't have to contend with) and, in many places, PST, plus the cost of brokering the shipment into the country.

It's easy to beat a deal if you shop with an American retailer, but then you're not supporting your local dealer. I can dig that money is money, but I'll happily pay a little more for a product if I can buy from someone I know and can trust, as opposed to some voice connected to a website somewhere...


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## Ian John (Aug 11, 2009)

Nice one Steve! Canadian seller of American made can never match dollars..the fees kill free trade. Better builders in Canada anyways..

Regards Ian


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## Frederico (Oct 6, 2009)

Just want to share my buying experience.

I was looking for a Larrivee L03R which local Guitarworks sells for $1490. I got a quote from a very reputable US guitar seller (he is actually a luthier himself and he makes and sells his own stuffs too). I could get this guitar for $999+$45 shipping with free set up and a bone saddle installed. Not to mention the L03R is made in Vancouver. Go figure.


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

Accept2 said:


> Alot of Canadian guitar stores use the list price to get their prices. Historically if a guitar listed for $1,000US, they would put it on the rack for $1,000CDN. In the US, the street price might be $600US. When the exchange rate was high, the $600US street price ended up being $1,000CDN, so it was equal to what you would pay in Canada anyway. Now with the exchange rate being what it is today, these stores are still trying to use this pricing scheme but the conversion rate has made the US guitar store prices cheaper than buying in Canada. The $600US street price is now closer to $750CDN..............


It's worse here in Korea. Retailers like to say that imports are expensive because of taxes (20% duty on items that cost more than 150$), but that's just a bold-faced lie. For example, I've seen a 300$ 10 year-old Godin on sale for 750$ (marked down from 1200$).

And, it's not just for imports. My LCD TV cost me nearly twice as much as it would have in the US.



On the upside, restaurants are cheap and income tax is a farce.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

NB-SK said:


> On the upside, restaurants are cheap and income tax is a farce.


I guess it all evens out one way or another.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

I'm editing my post because it contained too much specific info on two different stores.


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## six-string (Oct 7, 2009)

just wanted to mention that under NAFTA there is no duty payable on guitars made in North America when importing between countries (Canada/US/Mexico). However if the guitar was built in, say...Japan, Korea, China etc, then the duty is about 6%. 
i've imported several guitars this year alone and never paid duty.

Canadians do still pay GST & PST and shipping charges.
UPS & FedEx can also slap "brokerage fees" (avg $80- $100) on top of their shipping charges.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## six-string (Oct 7, 2009)

so there you have it. i don't know of many guitars made in Peru or Lichtenstein but i've seen tons from Japan. 
my own experience is that it has saved me a lot of money to buy American built guitars from USA sources. in spite of currency exchange, shipping costs etc.
still...i strongly recommend doing your homework.


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## NB-SK (Jul 28, 2007)

six-string said:


> just wanted to mention that under NAFTA there is no duty payable on guitars made in North America when importing between countries (Canada/US/Mexico). However if the guitar was built in, say...Japan, Korea, China etc, then the duty is about 6%.
> i've imported several guitars this year alone and never paid duty.
> 
> Canadians do still pay GST & PST and shipping charges.
> UPS & FedEx can also slap "brokerage fees" (avg $80- $100) on top of their shipping charges.


Canada and South Korea have signed a free-trade agreement. Don't know when it goes into affect, but I would imagine that you can expect to pay less for Korean-made guitars.


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## Ian John (Aug 11, 2009)

I don't think Canadian can compete with American period!! Just add Brokerage fees.. shipping..Taxes!! Plus you can tell Canadians are willing to save a buck at the cost their own job. Or the gamble that they do not need service!! The place you can stop by and try a few brands out warm and dry..not free to the store but to you! If it is more important to save a buck on a guitar that is by name only and sound is second. Buy cheap from your chair..


Regards Ian


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## SteveS (Apr 25, 2006)

Just to share my experience with this. 

My store used to mark items up a certain amount because everybody likes to dicker and after all was said and done both the buyer and seller had to feel they ended up doing ok on the deal.

With the internet things have changed drastically. You pretty much have to have your best price advertised right up front or no one will bother with you.

This is all fine, however it forces the seller to post a price that doesn't give them a whole lot of room for movement.

This might be why many of you aren't seeing big discounts off the asking price anymore.


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## six-string (Oct 7, 2009)

SteveS said:


> Just to share my experience with this.
> 
> My store used to mark items up a certain amount because everybody likes to dicker and after all was said and done both the buyer and seller had to feel they ended up doing ok on the deal.
> 
> ...


Fact is that most of the major manufacturers such as Gibson, Fender etc. have all sorts of rules that they insist the "authorized retailers" follow. Those rules include things like either not listing retail prices on the web, or having "minimum advertised prices". Sometimes this means the retailers can't advertise discount sale prices. This makes it difficult for the retailer to know what price the competition has, and it makes it difficult for the customer to compare price. 

As far as US pricing vs. Canadian pricing goes, there is no doubt the US prices are generally less. 
Some of the reasons are easy to understand:
1) Many of the major manufacturers are in the USA (Gibson, Fender, Martin etc)
2) The USA market is 10 times the size of Canada so they sell 10 times as many guitars, so they can risk cheaper prices.
3) Shipping costs, taxes etc are higher in Canada.
4) Canadians are rubes who put up with higher prices and don't complain to the retailers.


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

Don't forget also that for many products the distributors dealing to Canada are not the same distributors dealing to the US. I was looking into a Roland GR-20 last year and found that the online US retails price was lower than the price for the store I work at to get it straight from Roland Canada. I couldn't believe that at first. US retail on it was lower than Canadian wholesale. Since that I've learned a bit about how Roland is structured and it makes sense, but it also makes it damn hard for Canadian stores to compete.


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## Mike MacLeod (Nov 27, 2006)

kat_ said:


> Don't forget also that for many products the distributors dealing to Canada are not the same distributors dealing to the US. I was looking into a Roland GR-20 last year and found that the online US retails price was lower than the price for the store I work at to get it straight from Roland Canada. I couldn't believe that at first. US retail on it was lower than Canadian wholesale. Since that I've learned a bit about how Roland is structured and it makes sense, but it also makes it damn hard for Canadian stores to compete.


Absolutely correct! Canadian distribution houses are the scum of the earth. I will do anything I can to avoid the buggers. They buy at the same price or slightly less than dealers in the US and then mark it up about 30%. Today with Free Trade there is absolutely no need for them. Anyone can easily clear something through customs and there are professional brokerage houses that can do it for you.

I just saved over $1K by buying tires and wheels in the US for my car. We have been shafted for years in this country. Getting rid of distributors would make a huge difference in what we pay. A few items seem to be comparably priced, Harley D., Apple Computers, etc. But damn little else!!

But I'm not bitter ..... ;-)


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

In the age of the internet, distributors are like the dinosaurs. They are extinct, they just don't realize it yet.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

So i am wondering if the guy bought the 2K guitar or did he walk away?? 

I think on an expensive guitar they should beable too move a bit, or even offer a guitar chord, strap something.. anything.. but i have found also its like pulling teeth trying to get them down., especially if they don't know you..

I probably wont buy new again, u can get a better deal used... alot of gear out there, babied and in new condition.

Rick


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

rhh7 said:


> In the age of the internet, distributors are like the dinosaurs. They are extinct, they just don't realize it yet.


No big loss for the bad ones--but I don't like shopping for guitars or amps or effects or even straps online--I like being hands on.

Strings, picks, that sort of thing, that I'm already familiar with and don't change much--that might be okay.

So as long as flesh & blood stores stick around somewhere--I don't care who they use as a distributor- as long as the prices don't go way, way up.
(Oops--does that happen sometimes? :smile


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I would/will pay a few percent more on something if I can get it locally but any more than that and I'll get it at a lower price. When I pay more than that I feel I'm getting ripped off and that's a terrible way to treat my tender feelings.


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## Schectertastic (Jul 12, 2010)

lolligagger said:


> So, I'm at the guitar shop today and there was this guy hell-bent on dropping more than $2K on a new Taylor. He's obviously excited about the idea, and talking to everyone in the guitar room while he plays the same three chords over and over again...you know, the good ones (no it wasn't me playing, but it could have been).
> 
> I overheard him asking for a discount, or for the store to eat the GST because he wants the guitar today, is seriously commited, but like anybody else he simply wants to feel he got a great deal. Can't blame him...who pays sticker price for a new car? Anyway, I see the sales guy and the manager looking at list price on the computer and they are shaking their heads...no special deals today!
> 
> ...


Again...why guitars have suddenly become cars in peoples mentality I'll never understand. You don't haggle with Costco...you don't haggle with Walmart, you don't haggle at your local grocery store for 100g more of meat for the same price...why should guitar shops take a hit since no one else gives you a deal? a car is average $15,000-$50,000 new...MOST guitars are $300-$3000 average of what is actually IN STOCK...why is this ratio acceptable for haggling on a guitar?!?!


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## Schectertastic (Jul 12, 2010)

lolligagger said:


> I still have a hard time accepting that a store owner/manager cannot bend on price. I think they could lower the price a little if they actually _wanted _to, but at the end of the day they really don't _have _to.
> 
> I really don't think it is uncommon for any retail business to jack up the price of their merchandise 100 - 300%. Its the whole supply and demand thing. When demand falls off you can buy something 40% of the original price, and the stores are probably still making money.
> 
> A guitar probably tends to be an emotional purchase for most of us. Just walking in to the guitar room we are already interested in taking the bait...its simply a matter of seeing if the sales guy can keep us on the line once we are hooked.


Keep in mind there's also quantity....small store X may buy 6 guitars from a company....a giant chain like L & M buys 600...who is able to give you the "deal" while putting them on at a similar price to begin with? the chain store of course because they got a deal from the company by buying in quantity and pretty soon small store X has to go out of business....guess the little guy just can't make it in the world anymore, and that's a shame cause some of the independant shops in Ottawa are fantastic to deal with.


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