# Gibson in hot water



## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

It is sad to see such an iconic brand going down like that. Maybe the robot guitar wasn't a good idea after all...

Gibson ‘running out of time – rapidly’ | Nashville Post


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

A lot of things weren't a good idea at all. I fail to see how a company that charges so much for guitars of average construction cannot be profiting. The Godin Group a company seems to be doing well, and all handmade in Canada and at reasonable prices.
Mismanagement? Lazy, unproductive, complacent workers?
Too many rejects and re-works ?

I don't want to see the company go down even though I'm not a Gibson buyer. I think it would be funny Epiphone was sold off and then bought them out.

It would be nice to see another guitar maker buy the brand, clean house and straighten things out but I think they might be far too gone for that.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2018)

Scotty said:


> Mismanagement? Lazy, unproductive, complacent workers?


The second is usually the result of the first in any workplace.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Scotty said:


> A lot of things weren't a good idea at all. I fail to see how a company that charges so much for guitars of average construction cannot be profiting. The Godin Group a company seems to be doing well, and all handmade in Canada and at reasonable prices.
> Mismanagement? Lazy, unproductive, complacent workers?
> Too many rejects and re-works ?
> 
> ...


Godin uses different and less expensive parts and components than Gibson, their finishing is a cheaper process and they don’t have to follow traditional designs to avoid their customers freaking out. Imagine a non-nitro Gibson! There would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Gibson’s core guitar business is sustainable, as it says in the article. It’s the other businesses they’ve bought that are getting them in trouble.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Gibson in hot water. 


Absolutely NOT the best way to clean it.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2018)




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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

laristotle said:


>



LOL That's what I was thinking when I read the title. My search-foo, she not so good as you.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I thought it meant their hot water is getting shut off?


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

How do you have a Billion dollar in revenue and not have money to pay debts? Actually, why do they even have debt with that much revenue? Smh


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

knight_yyz said:


> How do you have a Billion dollar in revenue and not have money to pay debts? Actually, why do they even have debt with that much revenue? Smh


Revenue is only useful if it amounts to more than you're spending.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I understand math guys, its rhetorical. obviously its a case of gross mismanagement/stupidity


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Yep. Gibson owes the big boys some big coin. Wonder which of the 3 options that Henry faces he will pick? Knowing the way that asshat runs things, he'll bring the company to bankruptcy court.


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2018)

Dorian2 said:


> Wonder which of the 3 options that Henry faces he will pick?


4) Double the prices of guitars. Suckers may still buy them. Right?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

knight_yyz said:


> How do you have a Billion dollar in revenue and not have money to pay debts? Actually, why do they even have debt with that much revenue? Smh


1) It's the power of "brand". Gibson has a long and proud history. Investors are right to feel some confidence in that. They are considerably _less_ right to feel confidence in Juszkiewicz and the rest of the senior execs at Gibson, who appear to have a history of bad decisions.

2) I think we now know why Gibson didn't make an appearance at NAMM - cost-cutting.

3) I would be insterested to know just how much money was sunk into the development of the various experimental models that had close to zero uptake, like the Dusk Tiger, the Robot guitars, Firebird X, Zoot Suit SG/LP, et al. The expanded range of finishes also tends to soak up resources. Successful restaurants know that you can't survive by offering a huge menu. You offer a reasonable range of dishes to attract customers, and keep a lid on offerings to reduce inventory/supply needs and waste. In recent years, Gibson/Epiphone has gone nuts offering an ever-broader range of products. It's not worth tooling up for something that isn't going to pull in a wad of customers. Overall, I suppose, a huge menu of niche products will likely appeal to a large number of customers, but even if your restaurant is full, and you've misjudged how many people are going to want this dish or that one, you're going to have a lot of stuff in the fridge going bad before it gets used. It's also fair to note that guitars are not "consummables" that people use and throw out. Even when a guitar changes hands via Craigslist/kijiji, that's a guitar that got purchased _instead of_ buying a new one. AFAIC, Gretsch and Rickenbacker have taken the smarter path: introduce the intermittent new model, but stick to a known manageable range of products whose production costs can be optimally designed.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

"_*Take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves*." 
_

I figure Henry blew $100 of product alone with this little stunt


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## Guest (Feb 14, 2018)

Plastic fretboards will not increase sales.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Henry J soup? 

If you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

I barely care, I've never had enough money to buy one of their guitars


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

I guess the best possible outcome would be that the company is sold to a group that actually has an interest in producing quality guitars that their fan base actually want. Easier said than done...

Every company that I’ve ever worked with that had issues with quality, output or decision making, it tended to start right at the top and trickle down to the bottom; if there’s problems in the warehouse, it’s usually caused by the person sitting on the throne or one of his/her lackies.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

But they DO make quality guitars. I think the problem is that, instead of maximizing the production efficiency of the guitars that we love best (which they _have_ done for Epiphone), they have ended up making so many _different_ kinds of guitars, that each of the various product lines ends up being a sort of imposition, whose production costs can't be reduced any further. And THAT's why they can cost so much. Unless I am grossly misinformed, I suspect right now their Epiphone line is probably the more profitable for them. Sure, they are budget instruments, but the product line is less diverse than what is offered under the Gibson label. Being made overseas doesn't hurt either.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

amagras said:


> I barely care, I've never had enough money to buy one of their guitars


But you did. You bought an Epi LP-SL, right?


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

mhammer said:


> But you did. You bought an Epi LP-SL, right?


I did, but I barely use it so I'm donating it to another Cuban guitarist who needs it more than me.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

mhammer said:


> AFAIC, Gretsch and Rickenbacker have taken the smarter path: introduce the intermittent new model, but stick to a known manageable range of products whose production costs can be optimally designed.


This, and maybe divest Gibson musical instruments, spin it off from the rest of Gibson non-guitar products. I believe Gibson/Epiphone guitars are minority of its business. That may happen if there is some flavour of bankruptcy or semi-bankruptcy. I don't know all that stuff not coming from a business background of any type.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

StevieMac said:


> "_*Take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves*."
> _
> 
> I figure Henry blew $100 of product alone with this little stunt


The neck is pre-cut and "Mr Burns" still can't break it!


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

StevieMac said:


> "_*Take care of the pennies and the pounds will take care of themselves*."
> _
> 
> I figure Henry blew $100 of product alone with this little stunt


I believe this is a photo of the proper relicing procedure.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

I seriously never thought in a Million years that I'd partake into ripping the brand that I grew up dreaming of playing, but here I am. That Henry guy just ruined it. But I'm still a Gibson fan.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

amagras said:


> I barely care, I've never had enough money to buy one of their guitars


You can grab their cheapest for under $600 now I think. Im not suggesting you should though.


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## Business (Jul 30, 2013)

Last sentence of the article:

“The core business is a very stable business, and a sustainable one. But you have a balance sheet problem and an operational problem.”

This explains it all 
People can bash the recent quality / models / specs / prices (be it justified or not), but it isn't the root of their financial problems


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## Skippy (May 3, 2006)

1-Downsize and Go back to your roots and build just the products that’s made you successful in the glory days.
2-strict quality control, ensure nothing leaves the factory unless it is 100% flawless. Go back to stamping factory 2nd on the back of small imperfections.
3 reestablish relationships with mom and pop retailers , probably your best unsung hero salesforce.
4- replace current management with someone who actually cares about the product.
5- don’t use substandard wood or cut corners like the infamous 2012 fretboard fiasco.

Folks will pay good money if they are assured great quality.

(My SJ200 elite , Gibson Montana under Ren Ferguson is flawless , perfect in every detail and sounds amazing.... REN Cared about the products. )

It going to be an uphill climb to regain the public’s trust Gibson , I wish you well.


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## Business (Jul 30, 2013)

Skippy said:


> 1-Downsize and Go back to your roots and build just the products that’s made you successful in the glory days.
> 2-strict quality control, ensure nothing leaves the factory unless it is 100% flawless. Go back to stamping factory 2nd on the back of small imperfections.
> 3 reestablish relationships with mom and pop retailers , probably your best unsung hero salesforce.
> 4- replace current management with someone who actually cares about the product.
> 5- don’t use substandard wood or cut corners like the infamous 2012 fretboard fiasco.


1- They can't downsize, they've invested big money in other branches which are currently under-performing; selling those assets for a loss would be stupid
2- Again, the average Gibson buyer doesn't notice small imperfections. Most people can't tell a good guitar from a bad one. The brand name is still very strong. However, quality control saves you a lot of money on product returns
3- Brick and mortar stores are dying; have good relationships with stores that sell your products the most 
4- Replace current management with someone who knows about finances 
5- Use the best wood from a quality/price perspective

Again, the only people complaining about Gibson are the cork sniffers (me included), the vast majority of buyers don't know or care
Their guitars are selling well


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

For those who have read Good To Great, Gibson needs to get back to hedgehogging.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Wow.... Just.... Wow......


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

I love flying V’s, but that thing just looks awful. 

If they wanted to do a “modern” Flying V , they had better options... just take a V, add locking tuners, Teflon nut and saddles, compound radius, high output pickups, different wiring scheme. They could have done so much with the idea, rather than a poorly thought out shape and features.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

Gibson Brands demands Bangor luthier stop making some of his guitars


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Ronbeast said:


> I love flying V’s, but that thing just looks awful.
> 
> If they wanted to do a “modern” Flying V , they had better options... just take a V, add locking tuners, Teflon nut and saddles, compound radius, high output pickups, different wiring scheme. They could have done so much with the idea, rather than a poorly thought out shape and features.


And that, to my mind, is a big part of the problem they created for themselves. What you have described is a basic Flying V with aftermarket mods to the player's taste. It's NOT "another model". Gibson seems to have adopted the view that every little mod is somehow deserving of being another "model", instead of turning out consistent, predictable, lower-cost, production instruments. Fender has adopted a somewhat similar mentality, with all the inumerable variations on their basic models, but their manufacturing process is not nearly as labour-intensive as Gibson's, so they don't take quite the production-cost hit from stamping out multiple Jazzmaster pickguards to suit different pickup configurations that Gibson does for routing LPs with mini-HBs vs full-sized, vs P90s.

I acknowledge that the aftermarket mod crowd was a tempting crowd to cater to. But they should have left it alone, and up to that crowd to mod as they wanted, and kept their own production costs low, rather than try to seize the every-single-variation terrain. There's empires, and there's sustainable businesses. As we've seen with Eaton's, Sears, and Zellers, trying to be everything to everyone is often not a particularly sustainable business model.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

rollingdam said:


> Gibson Brands demands Bangor luthier stop making some of his guitars


Gibson's lawyers tried to pull that stunt with PRS, and lost. Either Henry J. hires some of the most aggressively blind lawyers, or else he hires lawyers who know nothing about the business but will do his bidding, no matter how foolish the request. He's trying to have his legal division do what the marketing division should have done 40 and 50 years ago.


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2018)

rollingdam said:


> Gibson Brands demands Bangor luthier stop making some of his guitars


Lol. They're also going after a toy company.
GIBSON Sues FUNKO Over Unauthorized Use Of Guitar Designs In METALLICA, KISS, GUNS N' ROSES Figures


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

mhammer said:


> There's empires, and there's sustainable businesses. As we've seen with Eaton's, Sears, and Zellers, trying to be everything to everyone is often not a particularly sustainable business model.


Some of us are all too familiar with this effect. In a desire to serve every market, you end up failing to serve any single market to a highly successful degree. Choose your steps wisely.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Ronbeast said:


> I love flying V’s, but that thing just looks awful.
> 
> If they wanted to do a “modern” Flying V , they had better options... just take a V, add locking tuners, Teflon nut and saddles, compound radius, high output pickups, different wiring scheme. They could have done so much with the idea, rather than a poorly thought out shape and features.


Its a jackson roswell rhodes.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Roryfan said:


> For those who have read Good To Great, Gibson needs to get back to hedgehogging.














mhammer said:


> And that, to my mind, is a big part of the problem they created for themselves. What you have described is a basic Flying V with aftermarket mods to the player's taste. It's NOT "another model". Gibson seems to have adopted the view that every little mod is somehow deserving of being another "model", instead of turning out consistent, predictable, lower-cost, production instruments. Fender has adopted a somewhat similar mentality, with all the inumerable variations on their basic models, but their manufacturing process is not nearly as labour-intensive as Gibson's, so they don't take quite the production-cost hit from stamping out multiple Jazzmaster pickguards to suit different pickup configurations that Gibson does for routing LPs with mini-HBs vs full-sized, vs P90s.
> 
> I acknowledge that the aftermarket mod crowd was a tempting crowd to cater to. But they should have left it alone, and up to that crowd to mod as they wanted, and kept their own production costs low, rather than try to seize the every-single-variation terrain. There's empires, and there's sustainable businesses. As we've seen with Eaton's, Sears, and Zellers, trying to be everything to everyone is often not a particularly sustainable business model.


i wonder how it might go if instead, you could order the body & finish, and then the rest would be like buying a car? choose the pick ups, tuners, bridge, plastics, etc and the dealer installs them for you?


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## sillyak (Oct 22, 2016)

The company I work for faced bankruptcy in 2016 under similar circumstances (too much debt, too many underperforming acquisitions). We sold off essentially verything except the very core business which almost wiped the debt clean and focused on what we are good at. Very strong today. Stock price has increased 13x over 2016 low.

Gibson needs to do the same. Sell off everything except Gibson and Epiphone. Hope to God that eliminates enough debt to continue as a going concern. Focus on quality, increase prices if needed (assuming a massive increase in quality, like PRS level quality), pay employees more so they give a crap ect.

PRS employees get a guitar at 2 years, 7 years and 15 years. Gibson employees got a coupon for a free taco one year as a Christmas bonus. Which group of employees do you think puts more effort into their product?


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

cheezyridr said:


> i wonder how it might go if instead, you could order the body & finish, and then the rest would be like buying a car? choose the pick ups, tuners, bridge, plastics, etc and the dealer installs them for you?


I think we forums geeks would like that, but probably he public at large would be less likely to appreciate it.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

sillyak said:


> The company I work for faced bankruptcy in 2016 under similar circumstances (too much debt, too many underperforming acquisitions). We sold off essentially verything except the very core business which almost wiped the debt clean and focused on what we are good at. Very strong today. Stock price has increased 13x over 2016 low.
> 
> Gibson needs to do the same. Sell off everything except Gibson and Epiphone. Hope to God that eliminates enough debt to continue as a going concern. Focus on quality, increase prices if needed (assuming a massive increase in quality, like PRS level quality), pay employees more so they give a crap ect.


Except that they make their money on all the other stuff and the guitar divisions are the ones driving the business into bankruptcy.



> PRS employees get a guitar at 2 years, 7 years and 15 years.


That's a super cool idea! One I will steal shamelessly.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

jbealsmusic said:


> Except that they make their money on all the other stuff and the guitar divisions are the ones driving the business into bankruptcy.


The article specifically states that the core business is sustainable and it’s the acquisitions of underperforming businesses that have caused the heavy debt load.




> One thing bond owners will be watching for is an improvement in the company’s electronics business, which has been built up in the past few years via debt-fueled acquisitions but has seen sales slump of late.
> 
> Still, even a solid turnaround on that front won’t be enough for Juszkiewicz to avoid difficult conversations.
> 
> “Some type of restructuring will be necessary,” Cassidy said. “The core business is a very stable business, and a sustainable one. But you have a balance sheet problem and an operational problem.”


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

jdto said:


> The article specifically states that the core business is sustainable and it’s the acquisitions of underperforming businesses that have caused the heavy debt load.


Weird... Definitely didn't think I hit reply yet because I was still double checking the validity of my comment. With the amount they overprice their guitars it wouldn't surprise me that it's still profitable, despite declining sales.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Dorian2 said:


> That Henry guy just ruined it.


To be fair, first he (and Dave Berryman) saved it. Then Henry ruined it.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

gtrguy said:


> To be fair, first he (and Dave Berryman) saved it. Then Henry ruined it.


Yeah...I heard that elsewhere recently. I don't usually pay too close attention that kind of thing for anything related to music. Tends to take away the magic for me.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

> i wonder how it might go if instead, you could order the body & finish, and then the rest would be like buying a car? choose the pick ups, tuners, bridge, plastics, etc and the dealer installs them for you?


That's more or less Keisel's business model, as well as that of pretty much any boutique custom builder. Works nicely for the small builder, who turns out guitars in maybe the double digits per year, and has clients who are willing to pay $5k+. Doesn't work so great for a company that employs hundreds, has substantial property and inventory holdings, and aspires to capturing a big chunk of the world-wide under-$2500 market.


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## Boogieman (Apr 6, 2009)

gtrguy said:


> To be fair, first he (and Dave Berryman) saved it. Then Henry ruined it.


I thought there were three guys?


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

mhammer said:


> That's more or less Keisel's business model, as well as that of pretty much any boutique custom builder. Works nicely for the small builder, who turns out guitars in maybe the double digits per year, and has clients who are willing to pay $5k+. Doesn't work so great for a company that employs hundreds, has substantial property and inventory holdings, and aspires to capturing a big chunk of the world-wide under-$2500 market.


To be fair, your numbers are a little off. Since you mention Carvin/Kiesel, before the split they sold 5000+ guitars per year and had over a hundred employees. These days, their guitar sales are even higher, though less employees now since there's no more amp division.

Companies like them are popping up all over the place. Semi-custom is the current growing trend.


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## Fuzzy dagger (Jun 3, 2016)

I like Gibson guitars. It's one of the few brands I am loyal to. Q-tips and Wellington beer are the only other ones I can think of off hand. I hate bendy q-tips that don't have enough cotten on the ends. I have six Gibson gits, and they are all fine machines. I've bought them all used, only one was modded, but not irreversibly so. The used cost was in line with the new cost, ie., a used Gibson will go for more than a used Epiphone by somewhat the same percentage. All this to say that I feel that they put out a good product at a good price. It seems to me that I more often hear from disappointed people than satisfied customers, perhaps because satisfaction doesn't compel retribution. 
As for their business model, I suspect that it is opaque, hard to tell what is really going on. That retail is, more and more, going online, has got to be disruptive for a business that was born in a bricks and mortar world. Also, it makes sense to try new things like electric tuning machines and whacky new shapes in order to capture more market share. My two Canadian cents worth.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Budda said:


> Its a jackson roswell rhodes.


Yup, which is why I think the guitar is cool as hell. The price.... Not so much


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

jbealsmusic said:


> To be fair, your numbers are a little off. Since you mention Carvin/Kiesel, before the split they sold 5000+ guitars per year and had over a hundred employees. These days, their guitar sales are even higher, though less employees now since there's no more amp division.
> 
> Companies like them are popping up all over the place. Semi-custom is the current growing trend.


Noted, and my bad. But that still makes them a medium-sized manufacturer, and likely well below the scale of Ibanez, Samick, Cort, et al. That's why they can have those bizarre finishes. No way they could keep that up and attempt to sell the number of instruments that those other Asian manufacturers do.

Interesting that they abandoned the amp side of the business and went back to a guitars-only business plan.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Gibson bought Philips Onkyo and TEAC? Why?


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## sillyak (Oct 22, 2016)

tomee2 said:


> Gibson bought Philips Onkyo and TEAC? Why?


HJ wanted to capitalize on the name and turn Gibson into a lifestyle brand. It hasn't really worked out.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

sillyak said:


> HJ wanted to capitalize on the name and turn Gibson into a lifestyle brand. It hasn't really worked out.


wow. I guess they forgot that they already were a lifestyle brand, for guitar players?

I think an outfit like Yamaha should buy them out. They know how to manage many diverse businesses - music AND motorcycles (and boats and snowmobiles)..


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

I've always been a Gibson loyalist. But I really wonder, if they did go down, would it matter?

I think the music market is changing and I think the guitar market has been shrinking for years. And the competition, mostly import, have gotten very, very good. 

While high end Gibsons are exceptional instruments, they don't stay in business selling those. They stay in business selling the lower priced Gibsons and, mainly, Epiphone. 

My other hobby is motorcycles, I ride a Harley. And guess what? the market is changing, they may be gone soon too. 

High end, expensive, trying to maintain a market that existed some years ago instead of looking to a future market is not a great business model.

And if Gibson is gone, and I want an expensive high end guitar, I think PRS probably makes one that fits the bill.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Budda said:


> You can grab their cheapest for under $600 now I think. Im not suggesting you should though.


The problem with those models is that they are cheap. Gibson is/was trying to preserve market share with these. The fact is, you can get a much better guitar for the price Gibson wants for these entry level guitars. IMHO, it is too little way too late.

The same things has happened with other businesses. In trying to expand his business to be a major player, it appears he has majorly balled things up but poor acquisition decisions. I don't feel bad for him or some of the other upper level management but if they go bankrupt or serious downsizing occurs, a lot of people will lose their jobs.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

jdto said:


> Godin uses different and less expensive parts and components than Gibson, their finishing is a cheaper process and they don’t have to follow traditional designs to avoid their customers freaking out. Imagine a non-nitro Gibson! There would be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
> 
> Gibson’s core guitar business is sustainable, as it says in the article. It’s the other businesses they’ve bought that are getting them in trouble.


Understandably so, but I don’t see how it equates to 50% more. 
I get the traditional thing, but why not a modern line with poly? 
Don’t eveyone flame me here...I don’t see the value of paying considerably more for such a fragile finish. I actually like poly and it’s durability. Nothing wrong with CNC carved production either. Consistency at less cost.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Skippy said:


> 1-Downsize and Go back to your roots and build just the products that’s made you successful in the glory days.
> 2-strict quality control, ensure nothing leaves the factory unless it is 100% flawless. Go back to stamping factory 2nd on the back of small imperfections.
> 3 reestablish relationships with mom and pop retailers , probably your best unsung hero salesforce.
> 4- replace current management with someone who actually cares about the product.
> ...


THIS....SO MUCH THIS

Moving the production to Japan would be a start. I’d likely buy one then


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Scotty said:


> THIS....SO MUCH THIS
> 
> Moving the production to Japan would be a start. I’d likely buy one then


Or Korea, China, Indonesia, etc. 

The downside to this is those in the USA losing their jobs. There is no easy or kind answer.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> Or Korea, China, Indonesia, etc.
> 
> The downside to this is those in the USA losing their jobs. There is no easy or kind answer.


North Americas ideals of standard of living has gone stupid. Remember the homes that were the be all to end all 30 years ago? They are junk and below everyone’s standard now. One car garage was standard, now it’s 3. Then there’s everyone’s hands out expecting more money, both because we feel entitled and also because we cannot afford not to.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Or Korea, China, Indonesia, etc.
> 
> The downside to this is those in the USA losing their jobs. There is no easy or kind answer.





Scotty said:


> North Americas ideals of standard of living has gone stupid. Remember the homes that were the be all to end all 30 years ago? They are junk and below everyone’s standard now. One car garage was standard, now it’s 3. Then there’s everyone’s hands out expecting more money, both because we feel entitled and also because we cannot afford not to.


So f-n what? Nothing wrong with expensive guitars or a nice standard of living. You two sound like a couple of jealous next door neighbours eyeing up my wife's shiny new tits while pretending to be pure of heart.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

vadsy said:


> So f-n what? Nothing wrong with expensive guitars or a nice standard of living. You to sound like a couple of jealous next door neighbours eyeing up my wife's shiny new tits while pretending to be pure of heart.


Pics for scientific purposes


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

RBlakeney said:


> Pics for scientific purposes


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

vadsy said:


> So f-n what? Nothing wrong with expensive guitars or a nice standard of living. You two sound like a couple of jealous next door neighbours eyeing up my wife's shiny new tits while pretending to be pure of heart.


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## Guest (Feb 17, 2018)

vadsy said:


> You two sound like a couple of jealous next door neighbours eyeing up my wife's shiny new tits while pretending to be pure of heart.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

mhammer said:


> 2) I think we now know why Gibson didn't make an appearance at NAMM - cost-cutting.


Because Henry J is convinced that he is some kind of visionary, they chose to go to a major electronics show instead. Because clearly that is where Gibson's priorities should lie.



> 3) I would be insterested to know just how much money was sunk into the development of the various experimental models that had close to zero uptake, like the Dusk Tiger, the Robot guitars, _*Firebird*_ X, Zoot Suit SG/LP, et al.



You spelled that wrong. It is spelled F-i-r-e-t-u-r-d


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

The firebird x may be the worst guitar I've ever seen


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## Doug B (Jun 19, 2017)

There are still great quality 'Gibson' guitars being made today but by Heritage, Colling, etc.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Saw this article today. Perhaps the era of Henry J is coming to an end.

Gibson guitar company facing imminent bankruptcy


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## Skippy (May 3, 2006)

There are still quality guitars made today by Gibson as well, for example I’ve yet to pick up a bad new 330 reissue ( the 2012 plywood neck excluded.)
Now they’re not cheap but imho worth the coin for those who can afford one. I am gassing for a jazzbox , tried so many different brands high and low end including a birth year 61es 175. Nothing really grabbed me as gotta have this. Yesterday I tried out a newer Gibson model 275 with p90’s. Bang! Unplugged accuoutic bliss , flawless workmanship , comfortable neck
Etc. Not cheap and over my budget but just goes to show that the company can still put out great guitars. Maybe the QC is better for the limited run models.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Fuzzy dagger said:


> All this to say that I feel that they put out a good product at a good price. It seems to me that I more often hear from disappointed people than satisfied customers, perhaps because satisfaction doesn't compel retribution.


The disappointed people are the ones that can't afford to buy a Gibson so they all jump on the bandwagon and constantly bash them. Its makes them feel better about themselves. Deep down though the would love to have one. I too think Gibson puts out a good product at a good price. I have four Les Pauls, bought them all new. I was lucky that I had to ability to save to purchase them. People can speculate all they want about the future of Gibson but lets be honest, the are not going anywhere.


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## sillyak (Oct 22, 2016)

TA462 said:


> The disappointed people are the ones that can't afford to buy a Gibson so they all jump on the bandwagon and constantly bash them. Its makes them feel better about themselves. Deep down though the would love to have one. I too think Gibson puts out a good product at a good price. I have four Les Pauls, bought them all new. I was lucky that I had to ability to save to purchase them. People can speculate all they want about the future of Gibson but lets be honest, the are not going anywhere.



Lots of people can afford Gibson, they aren't overly expensive. If you haven't seen Gibson quality control issues, you haven't been looking very hard (go to L&M and play half a dozen.) Lots of the people who bash Gibson are people who bought one and it sucked, not broke jealous haters.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Saw this article today. Perhaps the era of Henry J is coming to an end.
> 
> Gibson guitar company facing imminent bankruptcy


That article just quotes from the article in the OP.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

dwagar said:


> I've always been a Gibson loyalist. But I really wonder, if they did go down, would it matter?
> 
> I think the music market is changing and I think the guitar market has been shrinking for years. And the competition, mostly import, have gotten very, very good.
> 
> ...


i don't think the gibson/harley comparison is unfair at all. in fact, i think it is pretty appropriate. but i don't think either one of them is going away any time soon.



Scotty said:


> Understandably so, but I don’t see how it equates to 50% more.
> I get the traditional thing, but why not a modern line with poly?
> Don’t eveyone flame me here...I don’t see the value of paying considerably more for such a fragile finish. I actually like poly and it’s durability. Nothing wrong with CNC carved production either. Consistency at less cost.


i think they could get away with a model that had a polyester finish, if they went about it the right way. however, the relic guys, and the tonewood guys would hate it, even if it was the greatest guitar ever made, and still only cost $300. that said, i do feel they have several over priced guitars in their line up. any guitar that costs more than $2500 is over priced, period. that's just my opinion. i could go out and buy a real nice 335 today. but i plan to buy a used motorcycle in a few weeks. when they cost about the same, i have to ask which toy i
willl get more from, before making my decision. i just can't justify the guitar. it's the only reason i dont own a 335. maybe next year, although i've been saying that for a decade now.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

vadsy said:


> So f-n what? Nothing wrong with expensive guitars or a nice standard of living. You two sound like a couple of jealous next door neighbours eyeing up my wife's shiny new tits while pretending to be pure of heart.


Instead of getting blinded by your eagerness to be a dick, look a little deeper at what I'm saying.
North American manufacturing cannot compete with the Asian market. Here, the attitude is "what can my company do for me". In Asia, its "what can I do for my company". In N.A. it's "I _need_ more" to pay for all the things that they are constantly paying for or overextended on, without stepping up to DO more. I'm saying the standard of living has grown to such a state that people spend all their time trying to attain the living they think they should have and then becoming a slave to the machine to maintain/keep it. Add to it the complacency and expectation that higher wages are owed to us/them

In Asia, it's DO more to support a family and not only that, there's honor. When I say Asia, I realize China is a special case on its own and I'm not for it's child labour policies so I'm basing my comparisons on mfg. on Korea and Japan.

Another big one is quality control. If Gibson was purchased and moved to Asian production, their QC issues would be reduced to a fraction while output maximized. Asia can and does produce world class product.

And for the record, I don't care what people spend. For those who say people bash Gibson because they cannot afford them is BS. I could go out and buy a new R whatever this afternoon if I wanted it, or a dozen of them. I choose not to because the brand does not offer the quality per dollar that I seek.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

TA462 said:


> The disappointed people are the ones that can't afford to buy a Gibson so they all jump on the bandwagon and constantly bash them. Its makes them feel better about themselves. Deep down though the would love to have one.



This plays a big role in a lot of the Gibson bashing. When challenged, a lot of the worst critics will admit to never having owned one but the try to double down and rationalize that they won't own one because they are apparently so shit.

I was at the guitar shop yesterday and had my Gold Top with me because my friend who is the tech there is about to redo the electronics (the pots don't need replacing, I am just not a fan of the push/pull so want those removed completely). He was working on an acquaintance's guitar so that guy and another friend who works at the store were sitting around with me, farting around with my Les Paul the entire time. Both of them kept remarking about how great a guitar it is, how resonant it is, etc. The other customer even remarked that playing mine had given him GAS for a Gold Top. He said he has always liked the colour, and that playing mine put it in his head that he has to get one (he is primarily a Strat player).

And my guitar is but just one example. Gibson does make some great guitars, and much of the criticism is internet BS.

How the company is being run by that idiot Henry J is another matter altogether.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Scotty said:


> Another big one is quality control. If Gibson was purchased and moved to Asian production, their QC issues would be reduced to a fraction while output maximized.


Not necessarily. There are crappy Epis and Squiers produced in Asia. It could happen, but would be dependent on where they were made, whether they chose to adhere to certain standards, etc. Just being made in Asia does not automatically mean QC is good.




> Asia can and does produce world class product.



This is absolutely true.





> For those who say people bash Gibson because they cannot afford them is BS.


It isn't true of everyone who bashes Gibson, but it is true of a lot of people who do.

Fender forums can be the worst for this. There seems to be a real us vs. them attitude towards Gibsons on Fender forums. The funny thing is that the reverse isn't true and on Gibson forums you will find that people have a ton of respect for Fenders (especially Teles).




> I could go out and buy a new R whatever this afternoon if I wanted it, or a dozen of them. I choose not to because the brand does not offer the quality per dollar that I seek.



Same here, but I choose not to buy one because I do not think that they are worth the extra cost over a Traditional or a Standard (I am talking about LPs here, not SG or ES reissues), particularly for a home player such as myself. But if I came across one in the price range of a Trad/Standard then I would certainly buy one (a friend did recently and scooped an R8 for the price of a Standard). In fact, I had been keeping my eyes open for an R7 in that price range until I got my current Gold Top which put that idea out of my head because it is everything I want in an LP and, even after the push/pull pots are replaced, I will be into it for less than $1500.


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

I would relegate the few people whom I know personally that slam Gibson into the category as "haters due to price" and the fact they can't afford to spend that much $$ on a guitar. 

Tho I do find they're high end LPs expensive --- I can't say I'd describe them as overpriced. I quite liked an R9 at L&M Markham yesterday but there's no way I was going to pay $6400 plus tax for one. And that was their discounted price. 

Tho no doubt someone will.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

sillyak said:


> Lots of people can afford Gibson, they aren't overly expensive. If you haven't seen Gibson quality control issues, you haven't been looking very hard (go to L&M and play half a dozen.) Lots of the people who bash Gibson are people who bought one and it sucked, not broke jealous haters.


Of course lots of people can afford them, lol. I've heard all about Gibson's quality control issues but honestly I've never seen any. I'm usually in Long & McQuade a few times a month as well as a few other shops I encounter in my travels. I don't see any issues with Gibson guitars except most are out of tune. When I bought my first Les Paul I probably played 20 or so before choosing the one I bought. Same goes for the next two as well as every Fender guitar I own as well. Who buys guitars before playing them nowdays? Even if you did buy a guitar and it sucked for some reason you have the option to return it and get another. I think your describing people who say Gibson sucks are people that just don't have a clue on how to buy a guitar. A Gibson isn't for everyone but everyone wants a Gibson at least once in their lives.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

colchar said:


> Fender forums can be the worst for this. There seems to be a real us vs. them attitude towards Gibsons on Fender forums. The funny thing is that the reverse isn't true and on Gibson forums you will find that people have a ton of respect for Fenders (especially Teles).


i participate on both forums, and i feel like this is very accurate. to be honest though, i will say that although i feel there are some gibby's that are over priced, fenders are actually worse, in a different way. the prices for a new strat, as an example. sure they are nice guitars. but the configuration is what makes the price too high. it's a bolt-on, front routed guitar with a poly finish, in a solid color or one of 2 bursts. they use common woods, and there is far less hand work involved in making one than a gibson guitar. a strat shouldn't cost $1500 u.s. or more. it's a great guitar, but as basic and modular as one could dream of. then there is the crappy resale value. i say that despite the price, i plan to _someday_ own a 335. but there is no way i would ever buy a brand new strat. used only, for me.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

colchar said:


> Not necessarily. There are crappy Epis and Squiers produced in Asia. It could happen, but would be dependent on where they were made, whether they chose to adhere to certain standards, etc. Just being made in Asia does not automatically mean QC is good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed with the crappy models but remember, those makers are filling a market need of entry level guitars. Asia produces anywhere from crappy to mid grade to very good instruments, consistently. Japan has been producing high end and as far as I know continues to for the JDM and Euro markets and with a great level of consistency. 

Fender vs Gibson; I think this rivalry is everywhere. Ford, Dodge, GM....Harley, Honda, Yamaha etc. Some people are so ingrained that they don't consider anything else as even existing. 

And I too may buy a Gibson LP when I find one that I deem to be at reasonable cost to my value scale. I have not found one yet that is worth the dollars ove my current LP (again, in my price justification). It is like the drag racer spending $100k to go 1/100th of a second faster where I am ok with the current performance sort of thing


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

cdntac said:


> I would relegate the few people whom I know personally that slam Gibson into the category as "haters due to price" and the fact they can't afford to spend that much $$ on a guitar.
> 
> Tho I do find they're high end LPs expensive --- I can't say I'd describe them as overpriced. I quite liked an R9 at L&M Markham yesterday but* there's no way I was going to pay $6400 plus tax for one.* And that was their discounted price.
> 
> Tho no doubt someone will.


When I look at any price over $3000.00, I think what $3000.00 would buy me if I chose what I wanted, rather than what a manufacturer was offering me.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

When I spend $200 on something non-musical, I think "That's a pedal.". 

My R8 is one of the nicest guitars that I've played, like an old pair of slippers.
That '18 Special that I just got shows me that they're still making nice guitars.

The only few issues that I've encountered with Gibsons have been on lower end models.
Further to that, these were older models that have sat around for quite a while and it was fret ends that were the biggest issue.

Are some of them pricey new, sure. Do some still buy them, yes.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Scotty said:


> In Asia, its "what can I do for my company". .


yea, sometimes Asian factory workers even volunteer to put up their own suicide nets, they are happy to do it after a 16 hour shift by a dimly lit lightbulb


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

sulphur said:


> That '18 Special that I just got shows me that they're still making nice guitars.


Agreed, I just brought home a new 2018 LP Jr this week and I am very happy with it, haven't found something to complain about yet.


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## Skippy (May 3, 2006)

I have mentioned cost of new guitars in a prior post. 
In 1976 I purchased a new Strat for $750 , the Les Paul Deluxe at that time was $950 with case included. According to the inflation calculator a new Gibson Deluxe with case should now be $3883.39. 

Therefore the issue remains QC consistency and not inflated prices.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

vadsy said:


> Agreed, I just brought home a new 2018 LP Jr this week and I am very happy with it, haven't found something to complain about yet.


I sort of bought that with intentions of swapping out the pickups to a set of mini hums that I have here, but I'm enjoying the P90s in there now.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)




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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

sulphur said:


> I sort of bought that with intentions of swapping out the pickups to a set of mini hums that I have here, but I'm enjoying the P90s in there now.


I immediately consider stuff like that and it drives me nuts that all I'm ever doing is setting myself up for spending more without even getting out of the store. I will say that after a couple of days and some comparisons with my other guitars this one sounds good and should stay this way at least for a while, the only thing that needs switching is the strings from 9's to 10's.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

colchar said:


> This plays a big role in a lot of the Gibson bashing. When challenged, a lot of the worst critics will admit to never having owned one but the try to double down and rationalize that they won't own one because they are apparently so shit.
> 
> I was at the guitar shop yesterday and had my Gold Top with me because my friend who is the tech there is about to redo the electronics (the pots don't need replacing, I am just not a fan of the push/pull so want those removed completely). He was working on an acquaintance's guitar so that guy and another friend who works at the store were sitting around with me, farting around with my Les Paul the entire time. Both of them kept remarking about how great a guitar it is, how resonant it is, etc. The other customer even remarked that playing mine had given him GAS for a Gold Top. He said he has always liked the colour, and that playing mine put it in his head that he has to get one (he is primarily a Strat player).
> 
> ...


Gibson's aren't hard to come by so I'd question your reasoning. Using anecdotal evidence is the same thing you're also arguing against.
Much similarly to your reasoning, I've owned plenty and still think their quality control is shite.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

vadsy said:


> yea, sometimes Asian factory workers even volunteer to put up their own suicide nets, they are happy to do it after a 16 hour shift by a dimly lit lightbulb


If you're going to attack sometimes post, first use it in the context he said. Secondly, your attack doesn't refute his point.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

TDeneka said:


> If you're going to attack sometimes post, first use it in the context he said. Secondly, your attack doesn't refute his point.


thanks so much but I don’t care and I only read the portion I quoted of his post


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

vadsy said:


> yea, sometimes Asian factory workers even volunteer to put up their own suicide nets, they are happy to do it after a 16 hour shift by a dimly lit lightbulb


that was an apple factory, steve jobs was still alive at that time. although china is ultimately responsible, it being their country and all, it was an american company's policies which formed nearly every aspect of that entire mess. and, if we're going to be honest here, i doubt it even registered as a blip in their sales. anyone who owns apple anything has to own piece of that too.



Skippy said:


> I have mentioned cost of new guitars in a prior post.
> In 1976 I purchased a new Strat for $750 , the Les Paul Deluxe at that time was $950 with case included. According to the inflation calculator a new Gibson Deluxe with case should now be $3883.39.
> 
> Therefore the issue remains QC consistency and not inflated prices.


if inflation was the only factor involved, and things were linear, that would be correct. however, it is (in my opinion) not correct because since then technology and legal issues have widened the gap between the cost of those 2 instrument companies' products. on top of that, inflation is not a linear thing. changes in marketing are also a big factor. i don't feel it's correct to dismiss the cost without considering those other factors.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

cheezyridr said:


> that was an apple factory, steve jobs was still alive at that time. although china is ultimately responsible, it being their country and all, it was an american company's policies which formed nearly every aspect of that entire mess. and, if we're going to be honest here, i doubt it even registered as a blip in their sales. anyone who owns apple anything has to own piece of that too.


they've probably fixed those issues by now and everyone is better off and happy, so happy that they would gladly quit their jobs, leave everything they know behind and move to another country to work as Tim Hortons counter attendants


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Skippy said:


> I have mentioned cost of new guitars in a prior post.
> In 1976 I purchased a new Strat for $750 , the Les Paul Deluxe at that time was $950 with case included. According to the inflation calculator a new Gibson Deluxe with case should now be $3883.39.
> 
> Therefore the issue remains QC consistency and not inflated prices.


That's what we may think and what companies try to get us to believe and accept. The truth on the other hand is that the price of many things have come down, gone up in price very little.but not too many things have gone up four-fold. The fact that others can produce similar quality products for much less proves the point. The fact that many people are still willing to buy the name on the headstock is the only reason the prices are inflated as they are.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> That's what we may think and what companies try to get us to believe and accept. The truth on the other hand is that the price of many things have come down, gone up in price very little.but not too many things have gone up four-fold. The fact that others can produce similar quality products for much less proves the point. The fact that many people are still willing to buy the name on the headstock is the only reason the prices are inflated as they are.


As a Gibson LP owner, I'd have to strongly disagree with the concept of buying a guitar because of the name on the headstock. I'm as anti brand name as they come. It's the growl and feel of old Lester that makes me happy.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Dorian2 said:


> As a Gibson LP owner, *I'd have to strongly disagree with the concept of buying a guitar because of the name on the headstock.* I'm as anti brand name as they come. It's the growl and feel of old Lester that makes me happy.


You and I are likely in the minority. Otherwise, these companies wouldn't spend millions trying to convince us otherwise.


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## Skippy (May 3, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> that was an apple factory, steve jobs was still alive at that time. although china is ultimately responsible, it being their country and all, it was an american company's policies which formed nearly every aspect of that entire mess. and, if we're going to be honest here, i doubt it even registered as a blip in their sales. anyone who owns apple anything has to own piece of that too.
> 
> 
> 
> if inflation was the only factor involved, and things were linear, that would be correct. however, it is (in my opinion) not correct because since then technology and legal issues have widened the gap between the cost of those 2 instrument companies' products. on top of that, inflation is not a linear thing. changes in marketing are also a big factor. i don't feel it's correct to dismiss the cost without considering those other factors.


Yes and No. At that time the Deluxe was Gibsons lower cost version of the Les Paul ( Deluxe -then Standard- then Custom), The Standard is now in line with my calculations but a Traditional is $1000.00 less. Now we can debate the Norlin quality 1976 Deluxe LP vs Modern Traditional until the sun comes up but for sake of argument lets say the modern traditional equals the 76 Deluxe, so prices have come down .

Today I have more choices, I can go top end or low, or choose a different brand altogether. Nobody is forcing me to purchase a Gibson!. 
Having said that, I like some of their models and sometimes "only a Gibson is good enough" applies in my small personal world, not for the name on the headstock but because there is particular something that no other manufacturer can replicate.

There are 2 Gibson ES's on my bucket short list , hopefully someday.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

TDeneka said:


> Gibson's aren't hard to come by so I'd question your reasoning. Using anecdotal evidence is the same thing you're also arguing against.


No, I was going by personal experience on Fender forums and people I have met in person. That is personal experience, not anecdotal.




> I've owned plenty and still think their quality control is shite.



If their quality control is so shite, why do you keep buying them? And wouldn't playing them before buying them demonstrate to you that they are crap guitars before you lay down money on them? Personally, I don't guitars that I think are shit.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

colchar said:


> No, I was going by personal experience on Fender forums.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice assumptions. 
I buy them to flip. Got me my first PRS for free this way. I have no problem turning a profit by exploiting someones bias towards a name on a headstock.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Scotty said:


> Fender vs Gibson; I think this rivalry is everywhere. Ford, Dodge, GM....Harley, Honda, Yamaha etc. Some people are so ingrained that they don't consider anything else as even existing.



I used to have a prejudice against Yamaha acoustics, based on lower end models I had tried. When shopping for an acoustic not too long ago I tried and LL6 and brought it home. It is an excellent guitar, and I actually liked it better than the particular LL16 that my local L&M had in stock at the same time. My previous prejudice against Yamahas was incredibly stupid on my part, but at least I smartened up or I would have done myself out of a very good acoustic for the dumbest of reasons.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

@colchar personal experience Is anecdotal.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Budda said:


> @colchar personal experience Is anecdotal.


careful, you’re going to fail his class


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

TDeneka said:


> ....by exploiting someones bias towards a name on a headstock.


nice to see someone on here not influenced by brand names or signatures


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Budda said:


> @colchar personal experience Is anecdotal.



When you hear it from me, it is anecdotal. For me, it is not anecdotal because I am the one who experienced it.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

vadsy said:


> nice to see someone on here not influenced by brand names or signatures


My influence is monetary, so you'd be correct to assume so even though I sense the irony of what you post. After all, you seem to post the same "hurr durr insert mark tremonti photos" for reasons I cannot comprehend.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

colchar said:


> When you hear it from me, it is anecdotal. For me, it is not anecdotal because I am the one who experienced it.


Completely incorrect.


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## Skippy (May 3, 2006)

I Love the Les Paul , it's iconic and sexy with a sound to match. I have several have books on them and love to admire members guitar porn photos on instagram etc.
I have a problem though, they don't fit me. In the 70's when it was super cool to own one I found the nitro was to sticky and they were too heavy. Fast forward a few decades and I purchase a Les Paul . lord knows I tried to bond with it but 
the 60,s neck was too skinny and the whole guitar just didn't balance well like my Fenders do ( in a sitting position) . I sold it but the lust is still there and I continue to pick them up when visiting L&M etc. I can pick up 10 different samples and I can find fault in every one . The fault is the f'n guitar just isn't for me so they suck for me but may be a gem for someone else. New strings and a proper setup should be the only thing one has to do though. I have seen some finish flaws but not to the extent I read on the forums.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

TDeneka said:


> Nice assumptions.
> I buy them to flip. Got me my first PRS for free this way. I have no problem turning a profit by exploiting someones bias towards a name on a headstock.


Are you insinuating that people who buy Gibsons are buying them because of the name on the headstock?

That's an odd assumption. Coming from someone who is saying others are using assumptions.

I'll assume that you just don't like the Gibson brand itself and are attempting and failing to try to put down those who like the make, sound, and feel of these fine instruments. You're fooling only yourself.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Dorian2 said:


> Are you insinuating that people who buy Gibsons are buying them because of the name on the headstock?
> 
> That's an odd assumption. Coming from someone who is saying others are using assumptions.
> 
> I'll assume that you just don't like the Gibson brand itself and are attempting and failing to try to put down those who like the make, sound, and feel of these fine instruments. You're fooling only yourself.


You should learn some reading comprehension before you post again. I didn't claim that the guitars I flipped were good guitars at all, and yet they sold regardless. Why would that be? I don't give a damn what it says on the headstock as I've said before, but the people buying into them do.
Also, at what point did I attempt to put down someone because they liked the Gibson brand? 
Please come back with a better argument and try again, that way you don't end up looking like a jackass.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

TDeneka said:


> You should learn some reading comprehension before you post again. I didn't claim that the guitars I flipped were good guitars at all, and yet they sold regardless. Why would that be? I don't give a damn what it says on the headstock as I've said before, but the people buying into them do.
> Also, at what point did I attempt to put down someone because they liked the Gibson brand?
> Please come back with a better argument and try again, that way you don't end up looking like a jackass.





TDeneka said:


> Nice assumptions.
> I buy them to flip. Got me my first PRS for free this way. I have no problem turning a profit by exploiting someones bias towards a name on a headstock.


My reading comprehension is just fine. I'm quite literate as a matter of fact. Your judgement on people in general leaves much to be desired though. Nice try at a failed backhand slap....haha relax buddy...


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Pity that Gibson don't take more pride in they're QC... 

I have Japan made copies of all the great models and love them.
Never could afford the Gibson that I dreamed of... Could never justify the asking price of one Gibson compared to 10 Japan made ones for the same price...

I dream of a Ferrari but drive 10 Corvettes instead !!!


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Dorian2 said:


> My reading comprehension is just fine. I'm quite literate as a matter of fact. Your judgement on people in general leaves much to be desired though. Nice try at a failed backhand slap....haha relax buddy...


Are you insinuating my posts are contradictory whatsoever? 
That's gonna be a yikes from me.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

TDeneka said:


> Are you insinuating my posts are contradictory whatsoever?
> That's gonna be a yikes from me.


C'mon man. Stop trying to play word games. I'm not implying anything. I simply re-quoted the actual post I commented on. Simple as that. Take from it what you will. Your prerogative.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

"Gibson is going under!"

Guitar forum: squabbles


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Budda said:


> "Gibson is going under!"
> 
> Guitar forum: squabbles


clearly a disturbance in the force


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Dorian2 said:


> C'mon man. Stop trying to play word games. I'm not implying anything. I simply re-quoted the actual post I commented on. Simple as that. Take from it what you will. Your prerogative.


Running away when being called out. Yikes.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Steadfastly said:


> That's what we may think and what companies try to get us to believe and accept. The truth on the other hand is that the price of many things have come down, gone up in price very little.but not too many things have gone up four-fold. The fact that others can produce similar quality products for much less proves the point. The fact that many people are still willing to buy the name on the headstock is the only reason the prices are inflated as they are.


What the heck are you talking about Steadfastly. It amazes me how you come up with this crap all the time.


----------



## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Frenchy99 said:


> Pity that Gibson don't take more pride in they're QC...
> 
> I have Japan made copies of all the great models and love them.
> Never could afford the Gibson that I dreamed of... Could never justify the asking price of one Gibson compared to 10 Japan made ones for the same price...
> ...


I think you mean Chevette's.


----------



## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

TDeneka said:


> Running away when being called out. Yikes.


I doubt he is running away. Its more like he is trying not to argue with a keyboard jockey who is only hear for his/her own amusement.


----------



## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

TA462 said:


> I think you mean Chevette's.



Ohhh !!! Your probably one of those that say Traynor and Garnet are garbage as well !!!

Your good for the economy... Thank you for being there...


----------



## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Dorian2 said:


> Are you insinuating that people who buy Gibsons are buying them because of the name on the headstock?
> 
> That's an odd assumption.


Not really. There are those who let prestige colour their choices. Like non car guys buying a mustang or vette because its iconic and that’s all they know about it. There are other instruments that fill the non- Gibson niche. 



Frenchy99 said:


> Pity that Gibson don't take more pride in they're QC...
> 
> I have Japan made copies of all the great models and love them.
> Never could afford the Gibson that I dreamed of... Could never justify the asking price of one Gibson compared to 10 Japan made ones for the same price...
> ...


THIS. I wish there were more MIJ’s available (the good era) 



TA462 said:


> What the heck are you talking about Steadfastly. It amazes me how you come up with this crap all the time.


I think he’s referring to HJ setting elevated retail prices at elite levels to create high-status buying. (Not speaking of Best Buy, studio models etc. At least those are reasonably priced) I’m sure fender does this also with thier CS models. (Same for automakers. We all know Lincoln and Caddy’s aren’t worth anywhere near the asking price by sum of thier parts)



TA462 said:


> I think you mean Chevette's.


Yeah, maybe the early 70’s or Teisco stuff.


----------



## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Weird...

I always thought music was there to be fun....

Always have fun playing, jamming or even listening to others play...

Have fun doing set ups on my instruments, rotating them in my living room, cleaning them, playing them.

I love instruments and amps... love the wood grain on natural instruments. love the different shapes ... 

I have instruments from all over, American, Canadian, Japanese, Taiwanese... OK, I don't have top of the line Gibson but I did try them... Never had the urge to pull the plug on one mind you...

I don't get this snobbery shit...

So... you guys are better then me... Congrats !!! 

I`m still having fun...

Rock on guy`s...

HNG^%$


----------



## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Steadfastly said:


> The truth on the other hand is that the price of many things have come down, gone up in price very little.but not too many things have gone up four-fold.





TA462 said:


> What the heck are you talking about Steadfastly.


Seems clear to me.


----------



## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

how did this turn into an argument?

anyway... I like all Gibsons and Epiphones, even though I don't own any, but looking at the sepcs on the website it sure gets confusing, and they change yearly, so finding what you really want might force you to look only at the used market. and that is a problem for them, competing with themselves. Buying new needs to offer something used doesn't, like security or a guarantee, or easy returns, that you don't get if bought used


----------



## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Actually, the BoC inflation calculator shows that there has been a 544% increase from 1970 to now.

L&M has a return policy.


----------



## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Scotty said:


> Not really. There are those who let prestige colour their choices. Like non car guys buying a mustang or vette because its iconic and that’s all they know about it. There are other instruments that fill the non- Gibson niche.


Sure there are. In any walk of life. That post came across to me as a knock on Gibson owners or people who happen to like Gibson products in general though. So I take it personally.

I'll apologize to the rest of the forum for taking part in this nonsense and helping to Skid the thread. I won't apologize for calling Bullshit on certain posts though. Not yours though.

My apologies.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

tomee2 said:


> I like all Gibsons and Epiphones, even though I don't own any, but* looking at the sepcs on the website it sure gets confusing, *and they change yearly,


Not being interested in buying any of their electric guitars, I find the same thing. Perhaps that is the mystique for some who do buy them.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

sulphur said:


> Actually, the BoC inflation calculator shows that there has been a 544% increase from to now.
> 
> L&M has a return policy.


But would L & M let you return a 48 year old guitar?


----------



## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> But would L & M let you return a 48 year old guitar?


The return policy was an response to the post above mine.


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> But would L & M let you return a 48 year old guitar?


thats the beauty of buying a Gibson, they would let you return it, heck almost anyone would let you pawn it off on them

PS- now ask the same question but replace Gibson with Rondo


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

sulphur said:


> The return policy was an response to the post above mine.


Hey Sulphur, I knew that. I was just trying to be funny. It looks like I need to try a lot harder.


----------



## Guest (Feb 19, 2018)

Steadfastly said:


> But would L & M let you return a 48 year old guitar?


At the original 48 yr old selling price?
I'm sure that they would. And if not, I'll take it and give you the refund.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

laristotle said:


> At the original 48 yr old selling price?
> I'm sure that they would. And if not, I'll take it and give you the refund.


I wondered how long it would be before a reply like this would be coming along. I was thinking the same thing as I was typing it out.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

It’s amazing that this supposedly dying, poor quality, shitty-for-decades, overpriced brand continues to dominate discussion on forums, Facebook groups and in music stores. This dead company, run into the ground by a clueless CEO who only out out strange products that their customers don’t want, somehow ends up on the lips (fingertips?) of thousands of internet posters. Repeatedly.


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

jdto said:


> It’s amazing that this supposedly dying, poor quality, shitty-for-decades, overpriced brand continues to dominate discussion on forums, Facebook groups and in music stores. This dead company, run into the ground by a clueless CEO who only out out strange products that their customers don’t want, somehow ends up on the lips (fingertips?) of thousands of internet posters. Repeatedly.


you forgot to add, -jealous haters (repeatedly times more than the average Gibson owner)


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

jdto said:


> It’s amazing that this supposedly dying, poor quality, overpriced brand continues to dominate discussion on forums, Facebook groups and in music stores. This dead company,* run into the ground by a clueless CEO* who only out out strange products that their customers don’t want, somehow ends up on the lips (fingertips?) of thousands of internet posters. Repeatedly.


Not entirely clueless, of course, but one who has made some very serious mistakes. That is one of the reasons his company (s) get so much interest.


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Not entirely clueless, of course, but one who has made some very serious mistakes. That is one of the reasons his company (s) get so much interest.


is it actually Henry J that has your attention and not Gibson guitars? not that there is anything wrong with that


----------



## Skippy (May 3, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> that was an apple factory, steve jobs was still alive at that time. although china is ultimately responsible, it being their country and all, it was an american company's policies which formed nearly every aspect of that entire mess. and, if we're going to be honest here, i doubt it even registered as a blip in their sales. anyone who owns apple anything has to own piece of that too.
> 
> 
> 
> if inflation was the only factor involved, and things were linear, that would be correct. however, it is (in my opinion) not correct because since then technology and legal issues have widened the gap between the cost of those 2 instrument companies' products. on top of that, inflation is not a linear thing. changes in marketing are also a big factor. i don't feel it's correct to dismiss the cost without considering those other factors.





vadsy said:


> you forgot to add, -jealous haters (repeatedly times more than the average Gibson owner)





vadsy said:


> you forgot to add, -jealous haters (repeatedly times more than the average Gibson owner)


i am not a fan of Brand X guitars, Brand x has been ripping people off for years but it doesn’t affect me since I don’t have one , have ever considered one , or would the demise of the company make any difference in my life. Now why then would I get involved in a forum about the said Brand X guitar? I wouldn’t give a shit , period.


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Skippy said:


> i am not a fan of Brand X guitars, Brand x has been ripping people off for years but it doesn’t affect me since I don’t have one , have ever considered one , or would the demise of the company make any difference in my life. Now why then would I get involved in a forum about the said Brand X guitar? I wouldn’t give a shit , period.


exactly, yea, ...think about it


----------



## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Skippy said:


> i am not a fan of Brand X guitars, Brand x has been ripping people off for years but it doesn’t affect me since I don’t have one , have ever considered one , or would the demise of the company make any difference in my life. Now why then would I get involved in a forum about the said Brand X guitar? I wouldn’t give a shit , period.


apparently, you gave enough of a shit to read the thread, quote some people, and then post a reply.


----------



## Skippy (May 3, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> apparently, you gave enough of a shit to read the thread, quote some people, and then post a reply.


Yes, By Brand X I wasn't referring to Gibson. I read the thread because I have an interest in whats going on with the company. I actually value some and own one of their models. But lets say i'm going down the list of topics and theres a thread that says ( with no disrespect to the company or owners of this brand as Im just using it for a reference) , Jackson Guitar company going bankrupt , or Jackson Guitars are poor quality then I wouldn't even bother to read it because I have no vested interest in the brand. Move on to the next thread that appeals to me and that maybe I can offer/receive some thoughtful conversation. I get it, some folks just plain hate the Gibson Brand and thats fine. There's music that appeals to me and Music that doesn't but I wouldn't think of going around trashing the musicians who create the music that doesn't appeal to me, that music makes other happy and thats what this is all about. Who am I to argue if someone wants to pay $10,000.oo for the name Gibson on the headstock if it makes them happy. My only hope is that they fix the QC problems , change the management and survive as a Company.


----------



## Clement-C (Dec 7, 2017)

Speaking as a younger musician... and maybe this has something to do with it? I have played several Gibson models and have always liked them, but others have said it already. Price vs. quality, I do think some of them are overpriced... though at the end of the day, it comes down to what pleases you, your fingers and your ears. My Godin LGX-SA, bought brand new for $2000 sounds just as good as any LP I've ever played which costs twice as much. That, combined with the features I get, make it a more than satisfactory buy. But if this same guitar was made by Gibson, it would probably cost double, if not more. Maybe I simply haven't given them enough of a chance.. I've played around with peoples' Gibson electrics for years and just never have been atracted by them.. But I've been in the Godin camp since I picked up my first one. Not to say Gibsons don't still sound amazing! If I ever can afford the cash... would definitely love to own one. They do feel and sound great. But if it's a question of paying $4000 after taxes and the like, or paying $2500 for a guitar that's just as good, I would go with $2500. I do agree with some of my guitarist friends who think that much o what you're paying for with a Gibson is the name and reputation of the brand. But then again, I'm 25 and have only played guitar for 15 years... so what do I know?


----------



## Skippy (May 3, 2006)

When I was 16 I wish I would’ve been smart enough to not listen to people bashing brand names. Ibanez wasn’t cool in my social camp. Shit , now I wish for a 70’s hollowbody Ibanez.Godin makes a good guitar my friend.​


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Clement-C said:


> Speaking as a younger musician... and maybe this has something to do with it? I have played several Gibson models and have always liked them, but others have said it already. Price vs. quality, I do think some of them are overpriced... though at the end of the day, it comes down to what pleases you, your fingers and your ears. My Godin LGX-SA, bought brand new for $2000 sounds just as good as any LP I've ever played which costs twice as much. That, combined with the features I get, make it a more than satisfactory buy. But if this same guitar was made by Gibson, it would probably cost double, if not more. Maybe I simply haven't given them enough of a chance.. I've played around with peoples' Gibson electrics for years and just never have been atracted by them.. But I've been in the Godin camp since I picked up my first one. Not to say Gibsons don't still sound amazing! If I ever can afford the cash... would definitely love to own one. They do feel and sound great. But if it's a question of paying $4000 after taxes and the like, or paying $2500 for a guitar that's just as good, I would go with $2500. I do agree with some of my guitarist friends who think that much o what you're paying for with a Gibson is the name and reputation of the brand.* But then again, I'm 25 and have only played guitar for 15 years... so what do I know?*


A lot more than some twice your age. Those Godin LGX-SA's are one fine guitar.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Skippy said:


> When I was 16 I wish I would’ve been smart enough to not listen to people bashing brand names. Ibanez wasn’t cool in my social camp. now I wish for a 70’s hollowbody Ibanez.Godin makes a good guitar my friend.​


Ibanez still make some very high quality hollow body guitars for very decent prices and they are likely better guitars now than what was made 40-50 years ago, so I wouldn't be too upset.


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## Skippy (May 3, 2006)

Indeed they make fine guitars now but you pay far more for the MIJ ones. In fact I might pull the trigger on an Artcore I played at L&M last week for a G note.
Been dragging my feet on a hollow body since I'm fairly new to Jazz and therefore what I think I want may not be what's good for me , if that makes any sense. Actually, I don't NEED anything , I have 3 Telecasters so it boils down to WANT, period .LOL,what I really need is 30 years Jazz experience compressed into 365 days and one Telecaster.


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

Skippy said:


> Indeed they make fine guitars now but you pay far more for the MIJ ones. In fact I might pull the trigger on an Artcore I played at L&M last week for a G note.
> Been dragging my feet on a hollow body since I'm fairly new to Jazz and therefore what I think I want may not be what's good for me , if that makes any sense. Actually, I don't NEED anything , I have 3 Telecasters so it boils down to WANT, period .LOL,what I really need is 30 years Jazz experience compressed into 365 days and one Telecaster.


I wouldn't count out the Telecasters for jazz, Ted Greene made it work.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

This guy makes me laugh. Pulls no punches with his opinions.


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## DavidP (Mar 7, 2006)

Played a few Gibsons over the decades, and still have/play a LP and SG, but, when they introduce something like the 'Custom Boogie Van' (Les Paul Custom Boogie Van) no wonder things are heading down the toilet.... MSRP for this model is 5K USD. Who's getting in line to buy one???


----------



## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> This guy makes me laugh. Pulls no punches with his opinions.


He's typically insufferable, even when his point is good. This video was no exception.


----------



## Boogieman (Apr 6, 2009)

Morkolo said:


> I wouldn't count out the Telecasters for jazz, Ted Greene made it work.


Ed Bickert, too.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Boogieman said:


> Ed Bickert, too.


Bill Frisell.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Jim DaddyO said:


> This guy makes me laugh. Pulls no punches with his opinions.





TDeneka said:


> He's typically insufferable, even when his point is good. This video was no exception.


i couldn't argue with you. his points usually are pretty good, but he *is* annoying at the same time. but i want to say that he is wrong about something in his video:
the modern Vee is not the ugliest guitar ever built by gibson. that award should go to the dusk tiger and the zoot suit guitars.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

cheezyridr said:


> i couldn't argue with you. his points usually are pretty good, but he *is* annoying at the same time. but i want to say that he is wrong about something in his video:
> the modern Vee is not the ugliest guitar ever built by gibson. that award should go to the dusk tiger and the zoot suit guitars.


Agree with you. 
Although i have a soft spot for that zoot suit! haha


----------



## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

TDeneka said:


> Agree with you.
> Although i have a soft spot for that zoot suit! haha


i have no way of knowing, but my spider senses tell me he is probably a pretty good engineer.


----------



## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I don't mind that "modern" Vee, it does remind me of that Jackson Roswell unit.


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## NashvilleDeluxe (Feb 7, 2018)

About a year ago, I had a fistful of insurance and tax refund cash to replace a stolen guitar (LP style with some unbelievable Sanford Magnetics 9022 P 90's). The budget was a maximum of $9,000. I played a crap-ton of LP style guitars, and ended up with $8,000 in the bank. Why: the 2017 LP Tribute Goldtop. 

Maybe it's because I'm a Tele nut or a *******, but I wouldn't pay $5 for bird inlays, quilted tops, or 153 tone sunburst. All that to say, the Gibson Tribute is a remarkable value. It is the top dog among import offerings, and I think it unseats Gibson's own higher-end models. It arrived perfectly set up (I have a part-time business doing just that); the PLEK neck is killer. The nut was cut low and angled ideally. Even the pickups were in the sweet spot. Sure, the gig bag was garbage, but they all are. I just view them as bubble-wrap...good enough for shipping, and not much more.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Jim DaddyO said:


> This guy makes me laugh. Pulls no punches with his opinions.


Just the look tells me I don't want to watch. I can't stand someone screaming. Talk to me. Don't scream at me. I will decide whether what you have to say is important to me.


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## Skippy (May 3, 2006)

Morkolo said:


> I wouldn't count out the Telecasters for jazz, Ted Greene made it work.


Yes, Thats why I said 365 days and a Telecaster! ( some may say it's the only guitar you really need, does it all) And I have the Ted Greene Instructional Video to boot.
I rigged my Squire tele with a Duncan humbucker in the neck and fitted it with round wound 13 strings to simulate Teds' sound. Sounds pretty good but I'm missing one important element , his talent.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Gibson's response to bankruptcy claims.

Gibson responds to bankruptcy reports, claiming new strategy “will lead to the best financial results the company has seen in its history” | MusicRadar


----------



## Skippy (May 3, 2006)

Skippy said:


> Yes, Thats why I said 365 days and a Telecaster! ( some may say it's the only guitar you really need, does it all) And I have the Ted Greene Instructional Video to boot.





Steadfastly said:


> Gibson's response to bankruptcy claims.
> 
> Gibson responds to bankruptcy reports, claiming new strategy “will lead to the best financial results the company has seen in its history” | MusicRadar


 The company might pull through but Juszkiewicz is fighting desperately for his position. 
Gibson Creditors Want New CEO Before Rescue Deal


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Skippy said:


> The company might pull through but Juszkiewicz is fighting desperately for his position.
> Gibson Creditors Want New CEO Before Rescue Deal


Gibson needs a new CEO? I would say our very own @Steadfastly would be perfect for the position. He loves Gibson and knows a lot about the business, hopefully he sees this and feels the supportive mojo I am sending his way.


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

Whoever gets in there next should build a left handed Les Paul Junior DC in Heritage Cherry for me.


----------



## Skippy (May 3, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> This guy makes me laugh. Pulls no punches with his opinions.


It's called subliminal messaging. Star Trek fans will line up for one.


DavidP said:


> Played a few Gibsons over the decades, and still have/play a LP and SG, but, when they introduce something like the 'Custom Boogie Van' (Les Paul Custom Boogie Van) no wonder things are heading down the toilet.... MSRP for this model is 5K USD. Who's getting in line to buy one???


Every Treky will need one. From G- Force tuning to May the Force be with You !


----------



## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Skippy said:


> The company might pull through but Juszkiewicz is fighting desperately for his position.
> Gibson Creditors Want New CEO Before Rescue Deal


I think that is a very good call. Look at all the companies they've acquired under Gibson. Good grief, cut all of that loose already! I think thier foray into consumer audio products is also very risky. Phillips? Isn't that Walmart and Canadian tire audio products? I think development of ANY consumer electronic product is very risky. Everything is short lived when you are surrounded by the worlds giants. Just ask Blackberry


----------



## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

vadsy said:


> hopefully he sees this and feels the supportive mojo I am sending his way.


You + supportive? 

Stop the charades would you please? 
If one was to compare the amount of constructive input that the two of you put into this forum...do the math. Just saying


----------



## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

I have a Solution...

All Gibson classic models to be built in Japan !!!


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Frenchy99 said:


> I have a Solution...
> 
> All Gibson classic models to be built in Japan !!!


How about China?


----------



## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)




----------



## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

Frenchy99 said:


> I have a Solution...
> 
> All Gibson classic models to be built in Japan !!!


To be honest, if they started making tributes and melody makers and the rest of the low-med lineup in Japan, I’d probab never consider a US made Gibson again


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Scotty said:


> You + supportive?
> 
> Stop the charades would you please?
> If one was to compare the amount of constructive input that the two of you put into this forum...do the math. Just saying


you could try and be a little more supportive yourself, I'm trying to help, what are you trying to do?


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> How about China?


this is sound thinking. the type of leadership expected from a fully qualified CEO


----------



## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Ronbeast said:


> To be honest, if they started making tributes and melody makers and the rest of the low-med lineup in Japan, I’d probab never consider a US made Gibson again


I'm for Epiphone Elitist producion in Japan again. All models. Or Gibson production - any grade.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

vadsy said:


> you could try and be a little more supportive yourself, I'm trying to help, what are you trying to do?


I am. I'm just not supportive of certain behaviours.


----------



## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Gibson responds to bankruptcy reports, claiming new strategy “will lead to the best financial results the company has seen in its history” | MusicRadar

Cakewalk rescued from Gibson by BandLab | MusicRadar


----------



## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

I don't think there is a facepalm strong enough for this...

Gibson Nods to "Shaggin' Wagons" with New Custom Boogie Van Les Pauls


----------



## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

BSTheTech said:


> I don't think there is a facepalm strong enough for this...
> 
> Gibson Nods to "Shaggin' Wagons" with New Custom Boogie Van Les Pauls


----------



## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

For that price you may just want to buy a van.


----------



## Guest (Feb 23, 2018)




----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Robert1950 said:


> Cakewalk rescued from Gibson by BandLab | MusicRadar


They came to the realization that marketing the product was not the *Cakewalk* that Henry envisioned.


----------



## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> They came to the realization that marketing the product was not the *Cakewalk* that Henry envisioned.


----------



## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Wise words from Mr. Tufnel there. There's something absurdly wrong with some of the people running Gibson these days. Jeebus.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

jdto said:


>


But that bear is so much cuter than me.


----------



## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

BSTheTech said:


> I don't think there is a facepalm strong enough for this...
> 
> Gibson Nods to "Shaggin' Wagons" with New Custom Boogie Van Les Pauls


This guitar looks like something 2 drunk employees discussed at the bar and a third employee took them seriously.


----------



## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

BSTheTech said:


> I don't think there is a facepalm strong enough for this...
> 
> Gibson Nods to "Shaggin' Wagons" with New Custom Boogie Van Les Pauls



Henry....

LEAVE


NOW!!

Just LEAVE


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

DavidP said:


> Played a few Gibsons over the decades, and still have/play a LP and SG, but, when they introduce something like the 'Custom Boogie Van' (Les Paul Custom Boogie Van) no wonder things are heading down the toilet.... MSRP for this model is 5K USD. Who's getting in line to buy one???


Yes, but if they can find a bunch of "suckers", I mean buyers to buy them, it will help them get out of debt.


----------



## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Guitar101 said:


> Yes, but if they can find a bunch of "suckers", I mean buyers to buy them, it will help them get out of debt.


You never know who subscribes to the old saying attributed to PT Barnum (possibly incorrectly but that's not the point) "There's a sucker born every minute"


----------



## Guest (Feb 23, 2018)

'Boogie Van'. lol.
Not that they would sell any better, but, they should have released them as World Cup Customs instead.


----------



## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

laristotle said:


> 'Boogie Van'. lol.
> Not that they would sell any better, but, they should have released them as World Cup Customs instead.


Don't forget the Levi's lined case!!
Case handle could be made from old CB whips. 

And dingleballs. Harvest gold or avacado


----------



## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Scotty said:


> Harvest gold or avacado


THAT was frickin funny, i don't care what anyone says. nicely done


----------



## Boogieman (Apr 6, 2009)

Are they trying to come up with something different just for the sake of it?


----------



## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

This guy seems to explain what's going on as far as Gibson's finances/issues/major problems are concerned. I not a money guy so I thought maybe this would be interesting to a few. If there is false info on this, maybe someone can pitch in. It's a random link that popped up on my youtube home channel.


----------



## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Dorian2 said:


> This guy seems to explain what's going on as far as Gibson's finances/issues/major problems are concerned. I not a money guy so I thought maybe this would be interesting to a few. If there is false info on this, maybe someone can pitch in. It's a random link that popped up on my youtube home channel.


I liked “They are not focusing on ANYTHING“. I think there’s a lot of truth to this. Not only are they not focussing on doing what they know, they’re focussing at all these different areas they know nothing about, essentially relying on the staff they acquired with the company acquisitions. My opinion is that electronics these days are here today gone tomorrow. Far far too risky, especially when surrounded by industry giants like Sony, Apple and so on. (my comment about Sony might be a little bit behind the times, I don’t know their current status, but they used to be huge )

Everything I’ve heard lately, sounds very very bad for Gibson. I sure hope they can survive even though I’m not a devout Gibson person. It would be terrible to see such an icon crumble and vanish. Should Gibson be up for grabs , I hope somebody picks them up and turns things around.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

They’re too big to fail. Bailout and they’ll be making new guitars for people to fight about, with no actual hands on experience, in no time.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

vadsy said:


> They’re too big to fail. Bailout and they’ll be making new guitars for people to fight about, with no actual hands on experience, in no time.


Time will tell. I don’t think they are that big. We aren’t talking automakers here and the industry in general is dwindling/risky


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

vadsy said:


> They’re too big to fail. Bailout and they’ll be making new guitars for people to fight about, with no actual hands on experience, in no time.





Scotty said:


> Time will tell. I don’t think they are that big. We aren’t talking automakers here and the industry in general is dwindling/risky


Scotty is correct. They are a little speck comparatively and in no case would warrant a government bailout.


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

Guitar101 said:


> Yes, but if they can find a bunch of "suckers", I mean buyers to buy them, it will help them get out of debt.


According to what I've read in this thread so far "suckers" could reference *anyone* whose bought a Gibson in recent years.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I have respect for Gibson guitars and their history and great influence on the guitar industry. It is just that I have not cared for what has been done with the brand and how it has been managed at times during its history. If there is anyone who should be a model for how a GUITAR company can been run, it should be Paul Reed Smith.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Robert1950 said:


> I have respect for Gibson guitars and their history and great influence on the guitar industry. It is just that I have not cared for what has been done with the brand and how it has been managed at times during its history. If there is anyone who should be a model for how a GUITAR company can been run, it should be Paul Reed Smith.


I'm not coming at this one to fight the point but PRS seems odd, they build great guitars but the weird nickleback, and similar, stigma along with some poor resale make me think they haven't got it figured out.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

TDeneka said:


> Scotty is correct. They are a little speck comparatively and in no case would warrant a government bailout.


bailout/buyout and restructuring to build the same classics that the name is associated with


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

I would say the suckers are the ones who bought new.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Meh. If someone likes a guitar and buys it with their own money and are happy with it, they aren’t a sucker. Feeling superior over something like a fucking guitar purchase, as though that somehow makes you a better person, is what’s for suckers.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Ya...this sucker I know bought a Gibby when he was 17 after washing dishes for a local Restaurant for a year. It's only been his #1 since he purchased it used in 1986. Stupid decision. Some people just can't be taught the correct way to do things.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Gibson Guitar Co. is fine, it's Gibson Inc. that's in trouble. It will be interesting though, to see what happens to Henry and the rest of his menagerie of companies.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> ...It will be interesting though, to see what happens to Henry ...


Hologram on their new line of high end urinals.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Edit: multi post

Phone is possessed


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Wardo said:


> Hologram on their new line of high end urinals.


Maybe that's what Phillips and onkyo are up to...hologram projection tv/home theatre. With....get this...
AUTOTUNE

Voice command will undoubtedly start with "Hey Henry"...


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Robert1950 said:


> I have respect for Gibson guitars and their history and great influence on the guitar industry. It is just that I have not cared for what has been done with the brand and how it has been managed at times during its history. If there is anyone who should be a model for how a GUITAR company can been run, it should be Paul Reed Smith.



In a perfect world he would buy Gibson and bring it back from where it is now.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Wardo said:


> Hologram on their new line of high end urinals.



Well there are a lot of Gibson fans who would love to piss on Henry, and more than a few employees too I'd reckon.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

BSTheTech said:


> I don't think there is a facepalm strong enough for this...
> 
> Gibson Nods to "Shaggin' Wagons" with New Custom Boogie Van Les Pauls


When any company known for stained tops, backs and sides opts for paint, you know it's because they're trying to cover up laminated bodies made of substandard wood, as opposed to larger bookmatched planks. The branding of these models as some sort of hip paint job is likely in order to distract from the use of lesser-quality materials. Same way the Zoot Suit SG was essentially plywood (laminated layers) with a colourful pattern to distract from the fact that it was plywood. Go to the Gibson site and you'll see that there is no visible grain on these Boogie Van things. They describe the body as "solid mahogany" with a 2-piece maple top. But what sort of mahogany or maple? The fingerboard is richlite, rather than solid wood. And they're asking $5,000 for this?

I remember working in the residence dining hall at McGill one summer many years ago. Monday was roast chicken halves. Between Tuesday to Friday of the same week, the chicken dishes would use smaller and smaller pieces of what remained left over in the cooler, such that Friday was chicken-fried rice or something that had tiny chicken bits. Gibson seems intent on trying to turn scraps into product.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

colchar said:


> In a perfect world he would buy Gibson and bring it back from where it is now.


I’d buy a PRS Les Paul except my McCarty 594 kind of already is one. A single cut would be even closer.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Robert1950 said:


> Gibson responds to bankruptcy reports, claiming new strategy “will lead to the best financial results the company has seen in its history” | MusicRadar


"_CEO Henry Juszkiewicz detailed the plans further, stating, “We have been monetizing assets like stock holdings, real property and business segments that could not achieve the level of success we expected_."

That's CEO-speak for "We're backpeddling on our fuckups, bailing water out of the boat furiously, and trying to fix our stupid greedy mistakes."

_"could not achieve the level of success we expected_." is what the Axis leaders said when forced to surrender, and what Wall Street analysts said when the 2008 crash occurred.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

mhammer said:


> "_CEO Henry Juszkiewicz detailed the plans further, stating, “We have been monetizing assets like stock holdings, real property and business segments that could not achieve the level of success we expected_."
> 
> That's CEO-speak for "We're backpeddling on our fuckups, bailing water out of the boat furiously, and trying to fix our stupid greedy mistakes."
> 
> _"could not achieve the level of success we expected_." is what the Axis leaders said when forced to surrender, and what Wall Street analysts said when the 2008 crash occurred.


It's comparable to a whale entangled in heavy fishing nets, dragging her down to the point she's struggling for last breath. 

It was time to cut the ropes long ago


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

mhammer said:


> When any company known for stained tops, backs and sides opts for paint, you know it's because they're trying to cover up laminated bodies made of substandard wood, as opposed to larger bookmatched planks. The branding of these models as some sort of hip paint job is likely in order to distract from the use of lesser-quality materials. Same way the Zoot Suit SG was essentially plywood (laminated layers) with a colourful pattern to distract from the fact that it was plywood. Go to the Gibson site and you'll see that there is no visible grain on these Boogie Van things. They describe the body as "solid mahogany" with a 2-piece maple top. But what sort of mahogany or maple? The fingerboard is richlite, rather than solid wood. And they're asking $5,000 for this?
> 
> I remember working in the residence dining hall at McGill one summer many years ago. Monday was roast chicken halves. Between Tuesday to Friday of the same week, the chicken dishes would use smaller and smaller pieces of what remained left over in the cooler, such that Friday was chicken-fried rice or something that had tiny chicken bits. Gibson seems intent on trying to turn scraps into product.


Desperate measures and downright unscrupulous.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Scotty said:


> Desperate measures and downright unscrupulous.


And also pure speculation at this point. Gibson makes solid-colour guitars all the time. The Les Paul Custom are often solid colour. These are Customs, are they not?

Gibson uses Richlite on their LP Customs, too, so that is hardly a departure from their regular specs, whatever one may think of the material. It’s an excellent fretboard material, from what I’ve seen.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

mhammer said:


> _"could not achieve the level of success we expected_." is what the Axis leaders said when forced to surrender ...


Napoleon had the zact same story when he was freezin his bag off on the trip home from Moscow.


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

colchar said:


> In a perfect world he would buy Gibson and bring it back from where it is now.


No thanks.

PRS J45


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

jdto said:


> And also pure speculation at this point. Gibson makes solid-colour guitars all the time. The Les Paul Custom are often solid colour. These are Customs, are they not?
> 
> Gibson uses Richlite on their LP Customs, too, so that is hardly a departure from their regular specs, whatever one may think of the material. It’s an excellent fretboard material, from what I’ve seen.


Fair points. However, I'd be curious about what the difference may have been between wood used for fully-painted bodies, and wood used for unpainted or partly-painted (e.g., gold-top) bodies. Gold-tops may have used non-bookmatched maple caps, but the user could see the quality of the mahogany body under the cap. The Boogie Van models just strike me as a desperate attempt to be stylish; kinda like your granpa putting on bell-bottoms and a fringed leather vest.

Again, this is all, or should be, aftermarket stuff. "You want a Les Paul with a kooky paint job? Sure thing, kid. I'll do it for $100." It should not be a "model" or series. It starts to be like a breakfast menu that specifies the cantelope wedge on the left or on the right of your plate as different menu items. But then, that particular crime is committed by both Gibson and Fender.


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## Skippy (May 3, 2006)

Thought this was a good tube watch albeit a little long.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

colchar said:


> In a perfect world he would buy Gibson and bring it back from where it is now.


I'd like to see Heritage buy the name & move production back to Kalamazoo...


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

zontar said:


> I'd like to see Heritage buy the name & move production back to Kalamazoo...


I think Heritage has its own set of troubles. They recently fired/laid off a bunch of people and are under some tighter ownership.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

vadsy said:


> I think Heritage has its own set of troubles. They recently fired/laid off a bunch of people and are under some tighter ownership.


I didn't say t was realistic--just something I'd like to see...

Hope they get things straightened out--at least for the sake of jobs.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

jdto said:


> It’s amazing that this supposedly dying, poor quality, shitty-for-decades, overpriced brand continues to dominate discussion on forums, Facebook groups and in music stores. This dead company, run into the ground by a clueless CEO who only out out strange products that their customers don’t want, somehow ends up on the lips (fingertips?) of thousands of internet posters. Repeatedly.


LOL

They didn't even go to NAMM this year - and yet they are more talked about than any company that was there. Go figure. Highly unsuccessful business model.

And I notice a significant majority of the posters in this thread are the haters. Opinions, assholes - you know the rest.


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

mhammer said:


> The fingerboard is richlite, rather than solid wood. And they're asking $5,000 for this?


What’s wrong with Richlite?


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

High/Deaf said:


> LOL
> 
> They didn't even go to NAMM this year - and yet they are more talked about than any company that was there. Go figure. Highly unsuccessful business model.
> 
> And I notice a significant majority of the posters in this thread are the haters. Opinions, assholes - you know the rest.


229 posts in this thread and most posters are assholes. That can't be right, and no, I don't know the rest. Please enlighten me.

I suppose I should make a comment regarding Gibson guitars. Always wanted one. I think their great guitars but I could never justify paying that much money for a guitar, but hey, I'm a piano player.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Guitar101 said:


> 229 posts in this thread and most posters are assholes. That can be right, and no, I don't know the rest. Please enlighten me.
> 
> I suppose I should make a comment regarding Gibson guitars. Always wanted one. I think their great guitars but I could never justify paying that much money for a guitar, but hey, I'm a piano player.


You've never heard the saying: "Opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got one."

This thread is just opinions. I'm just surprised so many people go out of there way to express a negative one. Something I don't do in every Godin thread (which, IMO and from my experience, are shit guitars).

If you don't like Gibson, that's fine. To come in and express your opinion ONCE is even fine, but to come in and bash away, over and over again, and then do it in every other thread about Gibson as well? One starts to think about the long term psychological damage that these people have experienced due to a guitar manufacturer. In fact, you'd think this was Russia and when you went into all the guitar stores, it was the only brand available. Gibson has really gotten into some people's psyche. It's just a guitar, people, it's not fricken saving starving children.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

High/Deaf said:


> This thread is just opinions. I'm just surprised so many people go out of there way to express a negative one. Something I don't do in every Godin thread (which, IMO and from my experience, are shit guitars).


Thanks for my morning chuckle. I love how you said that you don't express negative opinions and then you expressed one. As for people's opinions, don't let them get you down.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Guitar101 said:


> Thanks for my morning chuckle. I love how you said that you don't express negative opinions and then you expressed one. As for people's opinions, don't let them get you down.


I never said "I don't express negative opinions." This is a forum, of course I do. Everyone does. It's so easy when we're all just screen caricatures. 

I just don't repeatedly express the same negative opinion *about Godin in every thread about Godin.* Subtle difference, I know, but it's there - if you look for it.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

cdntac said:


> What’s wrong with Richlite?


I don't think there is anything fundamentally "wrong" with it, but it reflects the company's move away from the quality wood materials they are known for. And at $5000USD, unless Richlite requires use of the large Hadron collider, the International Space Station, or something similar to manufacture, you'd expect use of non-synthetic materials.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

Some disheartening news from 225 Parsons Street


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

mhammer said:


> I don't think there is anything fundamentally "wrong" with it, but it reflects the company's move away from the quality wood materials they are known for. And at $5000USD, unless Richlite requires use of the large Hadron collider, the International Space Station, or something similar to manufacture, you'd expect use of non-synthetic materials.


I didn’t even know my LPC had an inferior Richlite fretboard when I bought it a few years ago. It played, sounded and looked great so I bought it. Then I read on guitar forums how substandard my guitar was...


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

rollingdam said:


> Some disheartening news from 225 Parsons Street


Thanks for that. Interesting, although like so many threads, it has a lot of filler, relative to useful content.
I visited the Parsons Street facility, about a year before Gibson disconnected from it, and it became Heritage. The staff, I gather, were all long-time Kalamazoo residents, whose lives were deeply woven into local life, and wee disinclined to move to Nashville (or wherever else Gibson might have wanted to plunk them). The facility was, at that time, where carved top instruments were made, and repairs done to vintage and heritage instruments from pre-war days. So the staff certainly had the skill set and equipment to make damn fine instruments. But, as the "hands" of that wing of Gibson, rather than the business brains, I don't know if they were up to sustaining a company, marketing effectively, etc. I don't know that they _weren't_, but it's not as if they were founded by someone with a business vision. It's been over 30 years since they started and may have brought people on board who do have better business savvy. And since it was founded over 30 years ago by folks who had already been working there for a while, they have also probably seen plenty of experienced people leave/retire/die. So, whatever they started with may be different now. I walked those wonderful worn-down creaky floorboards and smelled the sawdust, but for all I know they have CNC machines in there now too.

Whatever the case, I wish them well.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

mhammer said:


> Thanks for that. Interesting, although like so many threads, it has a lot of filler, relative to useful content.
> I visited the Parsons Street facility, about a year before Gibson disconnected from it, and it became Heritage. The staff, I gather, were all long-time Kalamazoo residents, whose lives were deeply woven into local life, and wee disinclined to move to Nashville (or wherever else Gibson might have wanted to plunk them). The facility was, at that time, where carved top instruments were made, and repairs done to vintage and heritage instruments from pre-war days. So the staff certainly had the skill set and equipment to make damn fine instruments. But, as the "hands" of that wing of Gibson, rather than the business brains, I don't know if they were up to sustaining a company, marketing effectively, etc. I don't know that they _weren't_, but it's not as if they were founded by someone with a business vision. It's been over 30 years since they started and may have brought people on board who do have better business savvy. And since it was founded over 30 years ago by folks who had already been working there for a while, they have also probably seen plenty of experienced people leave/retire/die. So, whatever they started with may be different now. I walked those wonderful worn-down creaky floorboards and smelled the sawdust, but for all I know they have CNC machines in there now too.
> 
> Whatever the case, I wish them well.



If it's like the current trend of trades, they probably do have CNC equipment for some processes, and to stay competitive, SHOULD have them. 

In my career, I have seen machine shops replace nearly all of thier equipment for CNC machining centres. HVAC industry went from skilled layout men to CNC plasma, then laser reducing its hands on trades to assemblers and installers. (not minimalizing the skills of anyone in this trade, it's just how the trade has gone. Layout men are retiring and not being replaced in many commercial shops)

There's nothing wrong with handbuilt but it's a romantic ideal that only costs the consumer and we all see how consumers are buying these days. 

Even modern blacksmiths rely on lasers, CNC and heavy equipment these days. 

All industry has to evolve or it goes extinct and I hope Heritage, Gibson and all the quality brands people covet can adapt and stay with the times to not only survive, but prosper.


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## luker0 (Apr 18, 2017)

High/Deaf said:


> I never said "I don't express negative opinions." This is a forum, of course I do. Everyone does. It's so easy when we're all just screen caricatures.
> 
> I just don't repeatedly express the same negative opinion *about Godin in every thread about Godin.* Subtle difference, I know, but it's there - if you look for it.


Probably because Godin owners don't feel the need to a) tell everyone over and over again how awesome their guitar is and b) don't need to convince themselves the price they paid was worth it. 

PS: Godins are excellent guitars. Oops. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## axefiend (Jan 3, 2018)

Hmmmmm, apparently it's all the music store's fault: 

Gibson Boss Blames Guitar Stores for Financial Woes


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

While Henry’s Apple analogy has some merit, he obviously neglects to realize that the ipad, iphone or imac that is getting fondled by a potential customer each day isn’t the unit that is going home when bought. Having high end guitars easily accessible to everyone will result in scratched guitars that customers will subsequently want marked down before buying. 

Countless times I've seen little kids grabbing guitars or banging on drums while oblivious, clueless parents don’t watch their “cute” children.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Dorian2 said:


> Wise words from Mr. Tufnel there. There's something absurdly wrong with some of the people running Gibson these days. Jeebus.


This Jeebus face palm is my new favourite thing. You, sir, have won the internet today.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

axefiend said:


> Hmmmmm, apparently it's all the music store's fault:
> 
> Gibson Boss Blames Guitar Stores for Financial Woes


If one is buying a guitar without regard to how it feels, and assuming there is some degree of standardization with respect to body mass, neck carve, etc, then yeah, I guess music stores can go to e-commerce. But the thing is that higher-end guitars are a tactile experience. Music stores can sell stuff like strings or drumsticks, or amps, over the net. But for many people, what allows them to commit to plunking down >$1500 for a guitar is picking it up and playing it. Reputation will nudge some folks in the direction of coughing up their credit card number, but not everyone who wants a better guitar. Again, if there was the degree of uniformity for guitars that exists for Yamaha synths, or Fender Frontman amps, it would be a no-brainer to sell guitars over the net. But since better instruments tend to be more individual, and can't simply win the customer over by having more knobs and features, one should be prepared to have instruments shipped back, and deal with restocking. And once you're doing that, may as well have a bricks and mortar outlet.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

axefiend said:


> Hmmmmm, apparently it's all the music store's fault:
> 
> Gibson Boss Blames Guitar Stores for Financial Woes


Oh great, way to go long and McQuade it's all your fault !!!

Thanks HJ, now new tariffs are probably coming because you cannot admit your own mistakes.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)




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## Boogieman (Apr 6, 2009)

axefiend said:


> Hmmmmm, apparently it's all the music store's fault:
> 
> Gibson Boss Blames Guitar Stores for Financial Woes


Full interview here:
Gibson CEO Talks Challenges Facing Guitar Retail Industry: 'These Are Troubled Times'


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Robert1950 said:


>


It would be fun to photoshop Orville on that headstock or change it to an Epiphone headstock

Ok, I know that was a pot stir... but for those that get excited, they're still Gibson products. Stand down.


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

mhammer said:


> If one is buying a guitar without regard to how it feels, and assuming there is some degree of standardization with respect to body mass, neck carve, etc, then yeah, I guess music stores can go to e-commerce. But the thing is that higher-end guitars are a tactile experience. Music stores can sell stuff like strings or drumsticks, or amps, over the net. But for many people, what allows them to commit to plunking down >$1500 for a guitar is picking it up and playing it. Reputation will nudge some folks in the direction of coughing up their credit card number, but not everyone who wants a better guitar.


I got a bit of grief from someone at LA Music in Mississauga a few months ago over this very thing. An older guy, whom I assume was the owner, told me they were doing most of their high end guitar sales online and that they couldn’t be pulling out guitars from the boxes for people since I could see pics of the guitars online. I had to explain to him how I drove a few hours to _visit_ his store because I was interested in buying a LP and how I’d never buy one online sight unseen. 

Apparently I’m in the minority according to him...


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Seems to me like he's confusing under-$500 Epiphones and costlier Gibsons. Or maybe his customers are.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

axefiend said:


> Hmmmmm, apparently it's all the music store's fault:
> 
> Gibson Boss Blames Guitar Stores for Financial Woes


I think the title is a bit misleading as to what is actually being said. I actually agree with Henry to a degree. The Music stores I go to are not presenting the guitars I want to try, particularly the higher end ones, in a reasonably easy to reach manner. I'm average height but fuck if I'm gonna try to get on my tippy toes and stretch my arm out to try to snake a heavier guitar off the top "shelf". So instead of craning my neck and trying to see what price they are, if possible, and actually grabbing one to check out....what do I get? An eye full of guitars at my level that I don't even care to try out. I know not every Music store does the same thing, but in my experience with who can sell the Gibson brand in my area, in a store that is most convenient for me to go to, I feel very dissatisfied going there only to stare at the LP's up at the top while the customer reps are helping other customers with their stuff. The other shop near me that is privately owned that does not carry the Gibson brand has every single guitar at easy reach. For the more expensive models, they simply put a sign on it that says "please ask for assistance from staff". But it is still within easy reach to view, see feel, and play if I so choose to do so. This may sound like a small bitch coming from me personally, but if I'm thinking it, others are as well.

I still want Henry turfed though, even if I agree with him on a single point..

@cdntac , you must have posted as I was typing slow as a Sloth. You ain't alone.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

cdntac said:


> I got a bit of grief from someone at LA Music in Mississauga a few months ago over this very thing. An older guy, whom I assume was the owner, told me they were doing most of their high end guitar sales online and that they couldn’t be pulling out guitars from the boxes for people since I could see pics of the guitars online. I had to explain to him how I drove a few hours to _visit_ his store because I was interested in buying a LP and how I’d never buy one online sight unseen.
> 
> Apparently I’m in the minority according to him...


No, you’re not. Those guys are just d*€ks. 

For the opposite experience, go across the street to The Guitar Shop. Although they’re not a Gibson dealer, they get a few used ones in there & have tons of other high end gear (PRS, G&L, Two Rock, Friedman, etc.) that they’re quite happy to let you try to your heart’s content.


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

Roryfan said:


> No, you’re not. Those guys are just d*€ks.
> 
> For the opposite experience, go across the street to The Guitar Shop. Although they’re not a Gibson dealer, they get a few used ones in there & have tons of other high end gear (PRS, G&L, Two Rock, Friedman, etc.) that they’re quite happy to let you try to your heart’s content.


I’ve been in there many times. Went there first that day, iirc. 

Bought my first PRS from them. 

They did let me try out the LPs I wanted to that day at LA Music tho I ended up not buying one.


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## Skippy (May 3, 2006)

cdntac said:


> I got a bit of grief from someone at LA Music in Mississauga a few months ago over this very thing. An older guy, whom I assume was the owner, told me they were doing most of their high end guitar sales online and that they couldn’t be pulling out guitars from the boxes for people since I could see pics of the guitars online. I had to explain to him how I drove a few hours to _visit_ his store because I was interested in buying a LP and how I’d never buy one online sight unseen.
> 
> Apparently I’m in the minority according to him...


Your first mistake was to walk into LA Music , jesus, these guys treat everyone like children, personally I wouldn't buy a guitar pick from this place. As so far as online sale of their high end boxed guitars all one has to do is check out the reverb post to see how long they have been sitting and waiting to be sold. L&M might put the higher end stuff up high or in the back but they are more than helpful to let you audition anything without standing right beside you for the duration. I never feel unwanted and always have a good customer experience. Add to this a great no questions ( sometimes) return policy.

Now what Henry failed to mention was Gibson's business model of keeping thier products out of reach for smaller mom and pop stores and only dealing with major dealers.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

cdntac said:


> I got a bit of grief from someone at LA Music in Mississauga a few months ago over this very thing. An older guy, whom I assume was the owner, told me they were doing most of their high end guitar sales online and that they couldn’t be pulling out guitars from the boxes for people since I could see pics of the guitars online. I had to explain to him how I drove a few hours to _visit_ his store because I was interested in buying a LP and how I’d never buy one online sight unseen.
> 
> Apparently I’m in the minority according to him...



I'm not a fan of that store.


----------



## colchar (May 22, 2010)

If you want an example of what is wrong at Gibson, check out this line that they list for $4999MSRP. Who the hell would pay that amount for one of these abominations????


Les Paul Custom Boogie Van


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## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

colchar said:


> I'm not a fan of that store.


To their credit, they do have a really good selection (or at least they did back in Nov) of high end LPs. Definitely the best in the GTA that I've seen.


----------



## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

colchar said:


> If you want an example of what is wrong at Gibson, check out this line that they list for $4999MSRP. Who the hell would pay that amount for one of these abominations????
> 
> 
> Les Paul Custom Boogie Van


We had some fun with that one a few days ago. Maybe it's a typo. $499 at Best Buy makes more sense. 
Seriously


----------



## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

colchar said:


> If you want an example of what is wrong at Gibson, check out this line that they list for $4999MSRP. Who the hell would pay that amount for one of these abominations????
> 
> 
> Les Paul Custom Boogie Van


We had some fun with that one a few days ago. Maybe it's a typo. $499 at Best Buy makes more sense.
Seriously, not a bash. 

Because you are going to repaint it anyway


----------



## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Scotty said:


> We had some fun with that one a few days ago. Maybe it's a typo. $499 at Best Buy makes more sense.
> Seriously, not a bash.
> 
> Because you are going to repaint it anyway


It is a Custom, so the price isn’t out of line for that level of guitar in Gibson’s lineup. That’s MSRP, anyway, but I don’t know if they’ll ever sell one at that price.


----------



## Guest (Feb 27, 2018)

colchar said:


> Who the hell would pay that amount for one of these abominations????


The A-Team?


----------



## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Instead of 4,999 they should have made it 5 even and put John Bulushi’s signature on the headstock.


----------



## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

laristotle said:


> The A-Team?


That's exactly what I was thinking when I saw that colour combo.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

jdto said:


> It is a Custom, so the price isn’t out of line for that level of guitar in Gibson’s lineup. That’s MSRP, anyway, but I don’t know if they’ll ever sell one at that price.


The stores that have them will be blowing these and the neon coloured units with the Floyds out for deals down the road.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

laristotle said:


> The A-Team?


loved that van, though the Dukes Charger was badder.

The show? A thousand bullets flying, nobody ever hit


----------



## Guest (Feb 27, 2018)

Scotty said:


> loved that van, though the Dukes Charger was badder.


I grew up loving these


----------



## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

laristotle said:


> I grew up loving these


I forgot about the Munster street rods. 
Epic. 
Didn't show them enough. 
Weren't they Barris creations?


----------



## Guest (Feb 27, 2018)

Scotty said:


> Weren't they Barris creations?


Yes they were. george barris cars - Google Search


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Although the guitar side of things is doing okay, they are losing market share of there guitars to other companies. Here is one of the reasons why.

*Stupid Deal Of The Day Gibson LP CM T at $499.00 USD* Gibson 2016 Les Paul CM T Electric Guitar
Regular price is $699.00

FEATURES
Fingerboard: Thicker hand-oiled fingerboard
100% Les Paul mojo: No compromise on tone, quality, or playability
Pickup: A single Classic ™61 humbucker in the bridge position
Tuners: Traditional Green Key tuners
Carrying case: Padded gigbag
Inlays: Subtly elegant acrylic dot inlays
Setup: Comprehensive hand-finished setup
Bridge: Satin nickel wrapover bridge
Body: Classic contoured Les Paul body
Jack: Double-contact jack


*Agile Top of the Line at $499.00 USD *



Zoom




*Agile AL-3200MCC Tobacco Wide*
_*Agile AL-3200MCC - Now with Multi-Radius for Improved Comfort and Ease of Play!*_
*Neck-through *design for improved sustain and playability

*Body and neck contour* for extra comfort and access to higher frets

*Graph Tech* NVS2 bridge with string saver saddles

*Wide profile *neck for additional ease of play

Two Type V alnico humbucker pickups for that warm, traditional sound

Solid mahogany arch top body

Upgraded wiring, pots (high voltage with brass shafts for reduced noise), and pickup selector switch

*5 piece neck-through *(maple/walnut) neck and adjustable dual action truss rod

*Ebony fretboard* with 22 jumbo frets and *mother of pearl* trapezoid inlays

Price: $499.99

*Graph Tech* NVS2 bridge with string saver saddles

Two Type V alnico humbucker pickups for that warm, traditional sound

Solid mahogany arch top body

Bound body, neck, and headstock

Improved nickel plated hardware, including nickel die-cast Grover tuners with 18-1 turning ratio for ultra fine tuning (Model 102-18N)

Upgraded wiring, pots (high voltage with brass shafts for reduced noise), and pickup selector switch

Two volume controls, two tone controls, plus a three way pickup selector switch

*5 piece neck-through *(maple/walnut) neck and *dual action* adjustable truss rod
play and adjustable truss rod

*Ebony fretboard* with 22 jumbo frets and *mother of pearl* trapezoid inlays

*D'addario* strings installed at the factory and a professionally installed *Graph Tech nut*

Individually *hand filed frets* for professional feel and playability


----------



## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

I really doubt they are losing market share Steadfastly. There are people, like yourself that will never buy a Gibson because for some reason you think they are inferior or just as good as a knockoff. There is also the fact that a lot of people can't afford or justify spending that much on a guitar. Gibson honestly doesn't care about your opinion. Their market share is for people that dream and worship Gibson guitars, the people who actually want to own one or one hundred of them. They know they aren't going to convert you guys because you will never understand what its like to own a real Gibson. You can post the specs of all the knockoffs you want to but at the end of the day they will always be a knockoff. I laugh when people say that Gibsons suck or they just can't play them. Maybe they should look in the mirror and see what the real problem is. Gibsons aren't for everyone. I once went out and bought these custom fitted Taylor Made golf clubs. Cost a fair chunk of change but did they make me a better player? Not a chance, I actually think I became even worse. I could have went to Canadian Tire and bought a cheap set but I didn't. You know why? I've always wanted a custom set of Taylor Made clubs. Same goes for Gibson guitars. I own 4 Les Pauls and they sure didn't make me a better player. The thing is I've always dreamed of owning a real Les Paul, not a cheap wannabee. I am their market share where as you are not. See where I'm going with this?????


----------



## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

cdntac said:


> I got a bit of grief from someone at LA Music in Mississauga a few months ago over this very thing. An older guy, whom I assume was the owner, told me they were doing most of their high end guitar sales online and that they couldn’t be pulling out guitars from the boxes for people since I could see pics of the guitars online. I had to explain to him how I drove a few hours to _visit_ his store because I was interested in buying a LP and how I’d never buy one online sight unseen.
> 
> Apparently I’m in the minority according to him...


No your not in the minority. They just don't want to or can't afford to carry the inventory like some stores do..


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

TA462 said:


> I really doubt they are losing market share Steadfastly. There are people, like yourself that will never buy a Gibson because for some reason you think they are inferior or just as good as a knockoff. There is also the fact that a lot of people can't afford or justify spending that much on a guitar. Gibson honestly doesn't care about your opinion. Their market share is for people that dream and worship Gibson guitars, the people who actually want to own one or one hundred of them. They know they aren't going to convert you guys because you will never understand what its like to own a real Gibson. You can post the specs of all the knockoffs you want to but at the end of the day they will always be a knockoff. I laugh when people say that Gibsons suck or they just can't play them. Maybe they should look in the mirror and see what the real problem is. Gibsons aren't for everyone. I once went out and bought these custom fitted Taylor Made golf clubs. Cost a fair chunk of change but did they make me a better player? Not a chance, I actually think I became even worse. I could have went to Canadian Tire and bought a cheap set but I didn't. You know why? I've always wanted a custom set of Taylor Made clubs. Same goes for Gibson guitars. I own 4 Les Pauls and they sure didn't make me a better player. The thing is I've always dreamed of owning a real Les Paul, not a cheap wannabee. I am their market share where as you are not. See where I'm going with this?????


+1

When people start saying: "It plays/sounds as good as my Agile (or Rondo or whatever)......." perhaps they will be on to something. At this point they're just cheap knockoffs. Which is satisfactory to a lot of people - but not to everyone. 

Some people here should spend more time playing their guitars than justifying them and comparing them to the iconic brands they are trying to be. Just sayin'..................


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I'm surprised Agile is taking market share away from anyone, they aren't even on the market. You have to be good in order to conquer North America from a storage locker between the boat and trailer storage lots.


----------



## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Although the guitar side of things is doing okay, they are losing market share of there guitars to other companies. Here is one of the reasons why.
> 
> *Stupid Deal Of The Day Gibson LP CM T at $499.00 USD* Gibson 2016 Les Paul CM T Electric Guitar
> Regular price is $699.00
> ...



Some store puts a low end Gibson on sale for a day and you think that somehow means they are losing market share? Do you say the same thing when that retailer puts a Fender on sale for a day?

But more importantly, why are you so against Gibson when you admit in your other thread that you don't even know the models or specs? Did someone at Gibson steal your girlfriend or something? Your dislike of the company is bordering on the irrational.


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I think Steadly owned the dog = and Henry was the guy doin' the shooting. The 'complex' runs deep with this one.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

High/Deaf said:


> +1
> 
> When people start saying: "It plays/sounds as good as my Agile (or Rondo or whatever)......." perhaps they will be on to something. At this point they're just cheap knockoffs. Which is satisfactory to a lot of people - but not to everyone.
> 
> Some people here should spend more time playing their guitars than justifying them and comparing them to the iconic brands they are trying to be. Just sayin'..................


It may not sound exactly like the "iconic" brand but neither does the "iconic" brand sound like an Agile or Epi, Ibanez, Godin, etc. Once you add in a bit of fuzz, reverb, etc. even experts would have a hard time telling the difference, As far as playing as good, that is not difficult and may even play better. 

It is noteworthy that Joe Walsh has used different guitars over the years and I have yet to hear anyone say his tone sucks or is way different. I wonder why that is? Just saying........


----------



## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Whatever Gibson decides as a marketing direction, the worst case scenario...

expensive firewood !!!


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> It is noteworthy that Joe Walsh has used different guitars over the years and I have yet to hear anyone say his tone sucks or is way different. I wonder why that is? Just saying........


it is very noteworthy.. I heard Joe records exclusively with Agile Guitars, he tours with the bigger brands to keep the sponsors happy. just saying...


----------



## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Speaking of firewood. Just when things are cooling down with regards to Gibson. Steadly throws another log on the fire.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

colchar said:


> But more importantly, why are you so against Gibson when you admit in your other thread that you don't even know the models or specs? Did someone at Gibson steal your girlfriend or something? Your dislike of the company is bordering on the irrational.


he is irrational but I don't believe its dislike, Steadly loves Gibson, I would say he's obsessed with it,, its just very unhealthy


..very similar with my obsession with him


----------



## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> It may not sound exactly like the "iconic" brand but neither does the "iconic" brand sound like an Agile or Epi, Ibanez, Godin, etc. Once you add in a bit of fuzz, reverb, etc. even experts would have a hard time telling the difference, As far as playing as good, that is not difficult and may even play better.
> 
> It is noteworthy that Joe Walsh has used different guitars over the years and I have yet to hear anyone say his tone sucks or is way different. I wonder why that is? Just saying........


What has that got to do with it? I'm a big Godin supporter but I tried one of their LP type of guitars. Didn't have the feel or sound I was looking for. It did for the other guy that owned it, but to me it sucked ass. Didn't even think twice about getting that model. Can't even remember which one it was, but apparently for me it was and is totally forgettable. Same with a number of other brands I tried including PRS and LTD. None of em had the "character" that I look for. I won't explain what I mean by character other than it's the way an instrument moves me.


----------



## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Any updates on Gibson's financial status ???


----------



## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Robert1950 said:


> Any updates on Gibson's financial status ???


15 Employees laid of in Nashville plant and they rehired their old CFO.

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashvil...ling-gibson-lays-off-nashville-employees.html


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

...and they're hiring.
https://www.glassdoor.ca/job-listin...E28,41.htm?jl=2386440903&countryRedirect=true


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


----------



## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I see you have to be able to lift up to 50 pounds. Would that be for Norlin repairs and reconditioning?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

nkjanssen said:


> Good to see that wood working experience is "preferred" for the neck fitters in their custom shop.


...and intonation skills are a huge plus although not mandatory but you must be able to play the guitar. 12 bar blues and the intro to Stairway to Heaven will be part of the interview process.


----------



## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

nkjanssen said:


> Good to see that wood working experience is "preferred" for the neck fitters in their custom shop.


EXACTLY what I was going to point out.

Looks like they ditched high end staff for cheaper labour. I’d like to know how many have quit due to writing on the wall. Not uncommon


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Scotty said:


> Looks like they ditched high end staff for cheaper labour. I’d like to know how many have quit due to writing on the wall. Not uncommon


----------



## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Dorian2 said:


> 15 Employees laid of in Nashville plant and they rehired their old CFO.
> 
> https://www.bizjournals.com/nashvil...ling-gibson-lays-off-nashville-employees.html


Bringing back a proven guy is great, but why did he leave to begin with?

This is becoming a real cliffhanger


----------



## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

Steadfastly said:


> It may not sound exactly like the "iconic" brand but neither does the "iconic" brand sound like an Agile or Epi, Ibanez, Godin, etc. Once you add in a bit of fuzz, reverb, etc. even experts would have a hard time telling the difference, As far as playing as good, that is not difficult and may even play better.
> 
> It is noteworthy that Joe Walsh has used different guitars over the years and I have yet to hear anyone say his tone sucks or is way different. I wonder why that is? Just saying........


Well, I may not be an expert but I can certainly hear a difference between brands. Hell, I can hear a difference between guitars of the same brand and model. 

And anyone who can't hear a difference between Joe's new tone vs old tone needs to work on their listening skills. I'm not saying one is better or worse....just that it's easy to hear it.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

cdntac said:


> Well, I may not be an expert but I can certainly hear a difference between brands. Hell, I can hear a difference between guitars of the same brand and model.
> 
> And anyone who can't hear a difference between Joe's new tone vs old tone needs to work on their listening skills. I'm not saying one is better or worse....just that it's easy to hear it.


Did you notice I said _*"I have yet to hear anyone say his tone sucks or is *way different.*"*_


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Dorian2 said:


> What has that got to do with it? I'm a big Godin supporter but I tried one of their LP type of guitars. Didn't have the feel or sound I was looking for. It did for the other guy that owned it, but to me it sucked ass. Didn't even think twice about getting that model. Can't even remember which one it was, but apparently for me it was and is totally forgettable. Same with a number of other brands I tried including PRS and LTD. None of em had the "character" that I look for. *I won't explain what I mean by character other than it's the way an instrument moves me*.


Anyone that doesn't understand that doesn't understand human nature very well.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Dorian2 said:


> 15 Employees laid of in Nashville plant and they rehired their old CFO.
> 
> https://www.bizjournals.com/nashvil...ling-gibson-lays-off-nashville-employees.html


This may be due to the financial troubles laid out in the news article or it may be the time of year. Retail sales and purchases are way down at this time of year so it would be a slow time for building guitars. Time will tell, I guess.


----------



## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

Steadfastly said:


> Did you notice I said _*"I have yet to hear anyone say his tone sucks or is *way different.*"*_


Well, based on your first paragraph I'm working on the assumption that your Joe Walsh comment is inferring that you can't hear a difference when he's using a different guitar. Different doesn't always mean better or worse....just different.


----------



## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Steadfastly said:


> It may not sound exactly like the "iconic" brand but neither does the "iconic" brand sound like an Agile or Epi, Ibanez, Godin, etc. Once you add in a bit of fuzz, reverb, etc. even experts would have a hard time telling the difference, As far as playing as good, that is not difficult and may even play better.
> 
> It is noteworthy that Joe Walsh has used different guitars over the years and I have yet to hear anyone say his tone sucks or is way different. I wonder why that is? Just saying........


Now your just rambling and making stuff up.


----------



## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)




----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> This may be due to the financial troubles laid out in the news article or it may be the time of year. Retail sales and purchases are way down at this time of year so it would be a slow time for building guitars. Time will tell, I guess.


I have no idea how you aren't running that company yet. I would be happy to write you a letter of recommendation if you apply of that Gibson CEO position. I don't really think you need it with everything that you already know but it wouldn't hurt to win people over.


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Robert1950 said:


>


is that Steadly?


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

cdntac said:


> Well, based on your first paragraph I'm working on the assumption that your Joe Walsh comment is inferring that you can't hear a difference when he's using a different guitar. Different doesn't always mean better or worse....just different.


I'm guessing a dog farting on a snare drum is just as good as strumming a D35 around the campfire to Steadly


----------



## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

I'd say both play a part @Steadfastly . Probably leaning a bit towards letting some experience go for lower worker wages. That's just my human nature talking though..ha

@ lol @vadsy


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Dorian2 said:


> I'd say both play a part @Steadfastly . Probably leaning a bit towards letting some experience go for lower worker wages. That's just my human nature talking though..ha
> 
> @ lol @vadsy


I wouldn't doubt you're right. It surely wouldn't be the first time a company has done that.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

cdntac said:


> Well, based on your first paragraph I'm working on the assumption that your Joe Walsh comment is inferring that you can't hear a difference when he's using a different guitar. * Different doesn't always mean better or worse....just different.*



Correct and what I said about Joe Walsh is this.

*It is noteworthy that Joe Walsh has used different guitars over the years and I have yet to hear anyone say his tone sucks or is way different. *


----------



## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

Must fight getting sucked into the vortex....


----------



## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

cdntac said:


> Must fight getting sucked into the vortex....


The thread or the company??


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

cdntac said:


> Must fight getting sucked into the vortex....


That's usually only a problem when others assume things that are not said, misquote or take out of context what other member post.


----------



## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

both


----------



## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Correct and what I said about Joe Walsh is this.
> 
> *It is noteworthy that Joe Walsh has used different guitars over the years and I have yet to hear anyone say his tone sucks or is way different. *



But he ain't using an Agile or the like though is he?


----------



## dmc69 (Jan 20, 2011)

He's using an Epi Bonamassa Firebird, isn't he?


----------



## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

Here's something I saw earlier today, Twisted Sister guitarist Jay Jay French interviews Henry J:

How the Gibson CEO Is Trying to Save the Legendary 116-Year-Old Guitar Company


----------



## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

dmc69 said:


> He's using an Epi Bonamassa Firebird, isn't he?


He’s just buying all those up cause the market for them is gonna be big and he won’t have to live on cat food when he gets old.


----------



## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Kenmac said:


> Here's something I saw earlier today, Twisted Sister guitarist Jay Jay French interviews Henry J:
> 
> How the Gibson CEO Is Trying to Save the Legendary 116-Year-Old Guitar Company


Wonder who's going to take the reins?


----------



## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

henry complained about the branding, when he is the one who created that branding in the first place.


----------



## cdntac (Oct 11, 2017)

Scotty said:


> The thread or the company??


One poster's replies.


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

vadsy said:


> I have no idea how you aren't running that company yet. I would be happy to write you a letter of recommendation if you apply of that Gibson CEO position. I don't really think you need it with everything that you already know but it wouldn't hurt to win people over.


Better yet, there's a number of skill, but badly treated, employees just freed up. No doubt they are looking for work in their previous trade. Maybe Steadly or some of these other business tycoons Could hire those guys and start their own guitar company? Hell, how hard can it be. This Henry Jizkewisky guy is obviously a complete frickin moron and it took him years to screw this up, so it should be easy for some of these fart smellers, errr, smart fellers to step in and kick some luthiery ass. Right? Easy peasy, lake louisie. 

Common, Steadly, step and put your HVAC business acumen to the test. Hire those guys, start a guitar company and show us how it's really done. You've got all the answers, all ya gotta do is put them in practice. You could be the next Paul Reed Smith.


----------



## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Robert1950 said:


> Any updates on Gibson's financial status ???


I just bought them out with some saved up Canadian Tire money.
It was that, or a new ladder.


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

High/Deaf said:


> Better yet, there's a number of skill, but badly treated, employees just freed up. No doubt they are looking for work in their previous trade. Maybe Steadly or some of these other business tycoons Could hire those guys and start their own guitar company? Hell, how hard can it be. This Henry Jizkewisky guy is obviously a complete frickin moron and it took him years to screw this up, so it should be easy for some of these fart smellers, errr, smart fellers to step in and kick some luthiery ass. Right? Easy peasy, lake louisie.
> 
> Common, Steadly, step and put your HVAC business acumen to the test. Hire those guys, start a guitar company and show us how it's really done. You've got all the answers, all ya gotta do is put them in practice. You could be the next Paul Reed Smith.


Too late, Rondo, GFS, Ibanez, etc. have beat me to the punch.


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

sulphur said:


> I just bought them out with some saved up Canadian Tire money.
> It was that, or a new ladder.


I don't want to give you an regrets, but ......










........ladders are getting pretty cool.




Steadfastly said:


> Too late, Rondo, GFS, Ibanez, etc. have beat me to the punch.


No they haven't. These are all cheap imitators. I'm talking about being an innovator, as Gibson has tried to be. It's not as easy as just cloning other design, as you can see by that hideous Rondo thing you posted recently. 

Again, when I hear people say (post), "It plays as good as my Rondo/GFS/Ibanez", I'll be convinced otherwise. Until then, not so much.

But again, you armchair quarterbacks are missing out on a great opportunity. It's so easy to repeatedly, ad nauseam, slag Gibson and all their mistakes (while ignoring their occasional success......). Why not show us how it's really done?


----------



## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

High/Deaf said:


> I don't want to give you an regrets, but ......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As you wrongly post, I don't slag Gibson and all their mistakes. They make some great guitars as I've said a number of times. However, they are like all large companies in that they market their product as superior to everyone else when it's absolutely not true. They consequently charge 2, 3 and 4 times as much as others producing a very similar product and sometimes better. And if you believe their touting that spiel, you have been fooled by their marketing too. But you can buy and think what you want. Keep buying your headstock and emptying your wallet. Just don't try and persuade others with your faulty understanding and reasoning.


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> As you wrongly post, I don't slag Gibson and all their mistakes. They make some great guitars as I've said a number of times. *However, they are like all large companies in that they market their product as superior to everyone else when it's absolutely not true. *They consequently charge 2, 3 and 4 times as much as others producing a very similar product and sometimes better. And if you believe their touting that spiel, you have been fooled by their marketing too. But you can buy and think what you want. Keep buying your headstock and emptying your wallet. Just don't try and persuade others with your faulty understanding and reasoning.


Ummm. I'm trying real hard not to be negative on your posts as you seem to have enough people here that like that job, but what do you expect Gibson to do? "Our guitars are great but Fenders are better"?
Sometimes I don't know what you are trying to say or what point you're trying to make? Ok I'm out, before I get in to more trouble.


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Steadfastly said:


> As you wrongly post, I don't slag Gibson and all their mistakes. They make some great guitars as I've said a number of times. However, they are like all large companies in that they market their product as superior to everyone else when it's absolutely not true. They consequently charge 2, 3 and 4 times as much as others producing a very similar product and sometimes better. And if you believe their touting that spiel, you have been fooled by their marketing too. But you can buy and think what you want. Keep buying your headstock and emptying your wallet. Just don't try and persuade others with your faulty understanding and reasoning.


A home handyman can't tell the difference between really good powertools and cheaper, basic tools, compared to a journeyman who makes his living with them. They don't use them in the same way, and don't have the same requirements. Even the difference between various hammer weights and styles alludes them. So they just buy the cheap stuff and are happy. 

Some people are happy with mid-fi home audio. If they have never heard a high end system, they won't know what they are missing. And they will never justify the tiny incremental improvements that cost quite a bit of money. But to some of us, it matters. A lot. My time is too valuable to waste on 'just good enough', at least in the things I really care about.

Musical instruments are the same. Don't apologize for not getting it - I understand. But don't criticize those of us that do.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> As you wrongly post, I don't slag Gibson and all their mistakes. They make some great guitars as I've said a number of times. However, they are like all large companies in that they market their product as superior to everyone else when it's absolutely not true. They consequently charge 2, 3 and 4 times as much as others producing a very similar product and sometimes better. And if you believe their touting that spiel, you have been fooled by their marketing too. But you can buy and think what you want. Keep buying your headstock and emptying your wallet. Just don't try and persuade others with your faulty understanding and reasoning.


I haven't seen an equivalent product to a Gibson guitar that costs 1/4 the price. I can certainly see why one would say the differences are not worth the money to them, but the law of diminishing returns is present in almost all products, including guitars. Some people will pay the increased cost for that extra 20%, some won't.

I've seen imitations that have their limitations, but not something that is "very similar and sometimes better". That's a stretch.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

High/Deaf said:


> A home handyman can't tell the difference between really good powertools and cheaper, basic tools, compared to a journeyman who makes his living with them. They don't use them in the same way, and don't have the same requirements. Even the difference between various hammer weights and styles alludes them. So they just buy the cheap stuff and are happy.
> 
> Some people are happy with mid-fi home audio. If they have never heard a high end system, they won't know what they are missing. And they will never justify the tiny incremental improvements that cost quite a bit of money. But to some of us, it matters. A lot. My time is too valuable to waste on 'just good enough', at least in the things I really care about.
> 
> Musical instruments are the same. Don't apologize for not getting it - I understand. But don't criticize those of us that do.


Funny you bring this up. I have about 7k invested in an audiophile system. And I know what a 30k plus system sounds like. I have about 30k invested in just 4 guitars (if you count their new value). I love as high end as possible in both hobbies but I got to prioritize the one that means the most to me.
I've been tempted a few times to sell the audio system just to spend more on guitars and amps. I have a $3,500 turntable that I may sell. 
With my audio system I know what I'm missing with better equipment but it doesn't take away the joy I have for what I own.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> Funny you bring this up. I have about 7k invested in an audiophile system. And I know what a 30k plus system sounds like. I have about 30k invested in just 4 guitars (if you count their new value). I love as high end as possible in both hobbies but I got to prioritize the one that means the most to me.
> I've been tempted a few times to sell the audio system just to spend more on guitars and amps. I have a $3,500 turntable that I may sell.
> With my audio system I know what I'm missing with better equipment but it doesn't take away the joy I have for what I own.


Exactly. We all have to pick and choose what we value and spend on. Well, except for guys like Wozniak or Bonamassa.

Some people spend thousands and thousands on a dining room suite. I'm pretty happy with the one I bought for much, much less. Too each, their own. Same with linens and so many other things that aren't a passion to me.

{edited} I'm also that guy that buys cheaper power tools. I'm a home hackerman and can't justify the good stuff, don't even appreciate the good stuff, as much as I know it's better. I've got friends who make a living at that and they can tell the difference. And justify the costs. Hey, to me, a cheap power tool removes digits as effectively as an expensive one does. 

But for things I'm passionate about, yea, I'll spend my hard earned money to get that next step up. Maybe not to the very top, but as far as makes sense to me, with my limited means and all my various interests. This is very much a YMMV kind of thing.


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

I use my tools everyday to make a living, and I use some pretty expensive gear; fluke meters and the like... but I still buy most of my regular use stuff at Canadian Tire.

It’s a lot cheaper to replace a master craft wrench than it is to replace a Klein or other comparable tool, and in my line of work, tools end up in the sewer, tools drop from heights, and tools “go missing”. You can replace an entire set of wrenches for $100 at Canadian Tire; obviously they’re not the highest standard of quality available, but they have their uses.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

jdto said:


> I haven't seen an equivalent product to a Gibson guitar that costs 1/4 the price. I can certainly see why one would say the differences are not worth the money to them, but the law of diminishing returns is present in almost all products, including guitars. Some people will pay the increased cost for that extra 20%, some won't.
> 
> I've seen imitations that have their limitations, but not something that is "very similar and sometimes better". That's a stretch.


Did you do a comparison to the two guitars in post #258?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> Ummm. I'm trying real hard not to be negative on your posts as you seem to have enough people here that like that job, but what do you expect Gibson to do? "Our guitars are great but Fenders are better"?
> Sometimes I don't know what you are trying to say or what point you're trying to make? Ok I'm out, before I get in to more trouble.


They can only do what they are doing. That is their way of doing business. I have mentioned a few times that I used to work for a company like Gibson. They made very good products that were no better than most of the competition and had a very good name in the industry but they charged 3-4 times more than the competition. A lot of that was to cover their marketing and advertising costs. Those costs don't come cheaply and someone has to pay for it. 

They have gone the Epi route which helps them capture some of the lost market share lost ot their competitors. Funny, but the company, I worked for did the same thing.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

I'm still using my LP I bought for $800 32 years ago. Good value there considering I've used it professionally for years as a teacher and player. I'm also still using my 80 piece socket set I bought at Canadian Tire for $30 about 23 years ago as a home owner/attempt to fix er upper.....how about value is in the hands of the beholder? With that in mind, why in F*** would I go out and buy a cheap knock off of a LP when I know the intrinsic value(s) of what I play and use on a daily basis. I couldn't give a shit about if some of those "other" guitars "may" be better than the brand I own already. Gibson has proven it's worth to me, I'm very happy with the guitar I own from them, and if I had $5000 in extra money and a bit of GAS, I'd own another one no questions asked. Had a Sony radio years ago, it let me down within a couple of weeks. Haven't bought a Sony product since. Depends on the person and how they hold a grudge I suppose...LOL


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> Did you do a comparison to the two guitars in post #258?


There are no guitars in post #258

https://www.guitarscanada.com/index.php?threads/gibson-in-hot-water.196137/page-18#post-2003745


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> *They can only do what they are doing. That is their way of doing business. *I have mentioned a few times that I used to work for a company like Gibson. They made very good products that were no better than most of the competition and had a very good name in the industry but they charged 3-4 times more than the competition. A lot of that was to cover their marketing and advertising costs. Those costs don't come cheaply and someone has to pay for it.
> 
> They have gone the Epi route which helps them capture some of the lost market share lost ot their competitors. Funny, but the company, I worked for did the same thing.


Name one business,still in business that doesn't tout their product as the best and superior.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Hummm... I`m confused...

Is Canadian Tire gonna sell Gibson guitars now ???


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Frenchy99 said:


> Hummm... I`m confused...
> 
> Is Canadian Tire gonna sell Gibson guitars now ???


You know there'd be a guy with $2500 in CT money in a shopping bag heading in to pick up an LP.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Frenchy99 said:


> Hummm... I`m confused...
> 
> Is Canadian Tire gonna sell Gibson guitars now ???


Only CANADIAN brands


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

jdto said:


> You know there'd be a guy with $2500 in CT money in a shopping bag heading in to pick up an LP.


And holding up the line for an hour


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

henry only said things that i, and some of you, have already been saying for a few years now. the difference is, none of us are responsible for gibson the corp, but henry is. and henry, like many business leaders, failed to see a few things that are obvious to many of us. there's nothing surprising about that situation, i see it all the time, and i know you all do as well. there are multiple reasons that this sort of thing occurs sometimes. some are obvious, like perspectives and priorities being very different. but some are maybe slightly less apparent to the avg person, like, the decline of guitar based rock, and current pop music n0t being guitar-centric anymore means less players and, all that comes with it. the idea that a man like him might not see that coming as quickly as we did is not unusual. he doesn't focus on music as much as we do. he's far too busy for "leisure" activities, so that one snuck by him. fair enough. the thing that irks me is his general tone has an implied...thing behind it. henry knows that some of this was the direct result of decisions he made. but for reasons we can only guess at, he is unwilling to face that enough to admit it out loud. to me, that's unmanly. i think what a man should do in that situation is say " hey, i screwed up here and here, sorry about that, but this is how i plan to fix it..." he's placing the blame on everything BUT himself. that bugs me, because even though he's a dork, i think he IS trying to do a good job with gibson. i think his intentions were good, even if some of the things he has done have been epic wtf ideas. i am really sure there are people on his staff he is not listening to, and the result of that is, things aren't going so well.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

I'll say something that I'd expect from @Wardo



> He's gittin too big fer his Britches he is.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

This will be of interest...
Gibson lays off staff in Nashville custom shop | Nashville Post


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

greco said:


> This will be of interest...
> Gibson lays off staff in Nashville custom shop | Nashville Post


Post #282 FYI. Some cute comments to follow if you want a little entertainment factor this morning!! 



Dorian2 said:


> 15 Employees laid of in Nashville plant and they rehired their old CFO.
> 
> https://www.bizjournals.com/nashvil...ling-gibson-lays-off-nashville-employees.html


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

I feel pretty indifferent about the future outcome for Gibson, and any other companies that meet the same fate.

At the end of the day, they’re a multinational corporation whose entire purpose in existing is to squeeze pennies from consumers. The world could use fewer of these, in my opinion.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Ronbeast said:


> I feel pretty indifferent about the future outcome for Gibson, and any other companies that meet the same fate.
> 
> At the end of the day, they’re a multinational corporation whose entire purpose in existing is to squeeze pennies from consumers. The world could use fewer of these, in my opinion.


I am the same. I take no ownership in these large corporations. I don't mourn their deaths. We, as consumers, created them. And now we, as consumers, will destroy then to create the next big thing. Don't want to get off your ass to go to a store? Hey, here's Amazon for you. Good bye, Sears.

It's called capitalism. The world could use fewer of these, but replace them with what? Businesses based on morals rather than profits will be eaten by the corporations based on profits. Survival of the fittest. Capitalism working like it should. 

You will (far too often) see one particular poster here promoting 'buying it in the US and having it sent to the border' - just to save $1.67 or so. Consumerism run amok, irrelevant of morals or long term benefit of the workers affected or any of those idealistic positions. Just buy as much crap as you can as cheaply as you can. Yea, I think we could see this not going well from a long ways off.


To paraphrase and old saying: "Capitalism is the worst form of market out there. Except for all the rest."


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

High/Deaf said:


> I am the same. I take no ownership in these large corporations. I don't mourn their deaths. We, as consumers, created them. And now we, as consumers, will destroy then to create the next big thing. Don't want to get off your ass to go to a store? Hey, here's Amazon for you. Good bye, Sears.
> 
> It's called capitalism. The world could use fewer of these, but replace them with what? Businesses based on morals rather than profits will be eaten by the corporations based on profits. Survival of the fittest. Capitalism working like it should.
> 
> ...


 Don't look down your nose at those that buy online to save money. Not everyone can afford to go out and buy two dozen guitars that they always wanted. My kids, college and university educated are going to have a much, much tougher time than I did. Dollar stores, Walmart, ordering online will be their reality and for many others. The wealth is shifting to the Pacific. Nothing we can do to stop it. North American CEOs only helped that happen. 

Consumerism runs amok in North America regardless of how fat the wallet is. 

20 Gibson Les Paul's versus 20 offshore no-names is still consumerism. It's not done with any purpose other than to fulfill some want or need within. Saying your choice was moral or just is just os a veil of justification of expense. Doesn't matter what country or region or colour person that produced your item... they are still trying to put food on their table or support their family.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Scotty said:


> Don't look down your nose at those that buy online to save money. Not everyone can afford to go out and buy two dozen guitars that they always wanted. My kids, college and university educated are going to have a much, much tougher time than I did. Dollar stores, Walmart, ordering online will be their reality and for many others. The wealth is shifting to the Pacific. Nothing we can do to stop it. North American CEOs only helped that happen.
> 
> Consumerism runs amok in North America regardless of how fat the wallet is.
> 
> 20 Gibson Les Paul's versus 20 offshore no-names is still consumerism. It's not done with any purpose other than to fulfill some want or need within. Saying your choice was moral or just is just os a veil of justification of expense. Doesn't matter what country or region or colour person that produced your item... they are still trying to put food on their table or support their family.


Perhaps you need to re-read what I wrote. I'm not looking down my nose at buying on line, I do it as well. I'm just calling it as I see it. 

I will miss brick and mortar when it's gone. Kids today won't, because they never experienced it. 

As for kids having a tougher time now, that's debatable. My generation didn't think we needed hardwood floors and marble counter tops (covered with avocado toast) in our first place. Kids today want to start at the top and work their way up. We seemed to realize the flaw in that logic.

We also saw the big picture, at least in the small town I grew up in. If you pay a bit more a buy locally, those retailers then have money to buy locally. And so on. And so on. It may have to arbourite and carpet instead of marble and hardwood, but we thought the trade-off was worth it.

Consumerism has run amok everywhere. It is international. And again, the strong will eat while the weak are meat. Our NA production has been eaten. Retail probably not far behind when it all comes in a delivery truck. We are the authors of our own demise. We can choose to see it for what it is, or bury our heads and blame the CEO's for doing what the investors want them to do. Your choice.


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

The point I was getting at is that I have very little sympathy for any entity that has the power to make 10000 times as much as I do by simply moving their already unfathomable wealth from one lucrative market to the next. If one of these megaliths fails, I would almost consider it progress.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

My point is that these large corps and their CEO's don't exist in a vacuum. We complain about Henry making too much while we make Bezos the richest guy in the world. 

Do you go out of your way to invest in companies that do the right thing at the expensive of profit? Or do you invest in the company that will give you the best return?


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I love the sound of Gibson guitars, but in most part, they are not for my fingers. My ideal guitar would be a stratocaster that sounds like a Les Paul. I want Gibson guitars to continue with someone who really loves the guitars, but not quite in the way Henry 'loves' Gibsons.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Ronbeast said:


> I feel pretty indifferent about the future outcome for Gibson, and any other companies that meet the same fate.
> 
> At the end of the day, they’re a multinational corporation whose entire purpose in existing is to squeeze pennies from consumers. The world could use fewer of these, in my opinion.


Problem is, there would be no stores to buy stuff. That is the only reason their there. We might as well go for restaurants and coffee shops that only charge the tax while were at it.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Ronbeast said:


> I feel pretty indifferent about the future outcome for Gibson, and any other companies that meet the same fate.
> 
> At the end of the day, they’re a multinational corporation whose entire purpose in existing is to squeeze pennies from consumers. The world could use fewer of these, in my opinion.


whilst i agree, there are lots of them i would prefer to go long before gibson.



High/Deaf said:


> I am the same. I take no ownership in these large corporations. I don't mourn their deaths. We, as consumers, created them. And now we, as consumers, will destroy then to create the next big thing. Don't want to get off your ass to go to a store? Hey, here's Amazon for you. Good bye, Sears.
> 
> It's called capitalism. The world could use fewer of these, but replace them with what? Businesses based on morals rather than profits will be eaten by the corporations based on profits. Survival of the fittest. Capitalism working like it should.
> 
> ...


maybe you only save that amount when you only spend $15 or so. but let's be honest, potentially, you can save quite a bit, depending on what the purchase is. i mean, sure, you can deflate the savings by factoring in the cost of your time and gas. but doing that you can avoid the ridiculous ups brokerage fees, pay less for the shipping, avoid hst, often times pay less for the item, even factoring in the exchange. like it or not, that's the way it is. and it's not just new items either. some folks are unlike you, in that they feel no patriotic pride in paying taxes that are (in their opinion) arbitrary or exorbitant . at some point, someone needs to stand up and say the emperor has no clothes. it's the same thing with the idea of " buy locally. why the hell would i go to scarborough music to buy an amp for double the price plus tax that i can get it at L&M? so the guy who owns that place can make a good living? what's he buying locally with the extra money? the same groceries i am?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

cheezyridr said:


> maybe you only save that amount when you only spend $15 or so. but let's be honest, potentially, you can save quite a bit, depending on what the purchase is. i mean, sure, you can deflate the savings by factoring in the cost of your time and gas. but doing that you can avoid the ridiculous ups brokerage fees, pay less for the shipping, avoid hst, often times pay less for the item, even factoring in the exchange. like it or not, that's the way it is. and it's not just new items either. some folks are unlike you, in that they feel no patriotic pride in paying taxes that are (in their opinion) arbitrary or exorbitant . at some point, someone needs to stand up and say the emperor has no clothes. it's the same thing with the idea of " buy locally. why the hell would i go to scarborough music to buy an amp for double the price plus tax that i can get it at L&M? so the guy who owns that place can make a good living? what's he buying locally with the extra money? the same groceries i am?


The examples I've seen from people here haven't been 'buying it for 1/2 the price', they are in the range of 10% savings. Two entirely different things. Which one do you actually want to talk about?

If someone is charging a 100% markup over another retailer (once all the dust settles, such as travel costs, paying actual taxes and border fees and not cheating, etc), they probably aren't in business long. It is a competitive world now. With internet marketing, I don't think many retailers are getting away with that.

And then there is our ridiculous tax structure. We are never going to be quite as aggressive, price-wise, up here as they are across the border. Combination of lower population / density and those ridiculous taxes. You know, to pay for that ridiculous health care and education, roads that have fewer users / km, etc. Far be it from me to defend our govt (especially this current cluster-feck) but the reality is that the two countries have different realities and do things differently. Perhaps, over the short term, saving that 10% is worth it. Perhaps not. Time will tell. Probably won't matter much to us, we'll be gone as this plays out in its entirety.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Ronbeast said:


> I feel pretty indifferent about the future outcome for Gibson, and any other companies that meet the same fate.
> 
> At the end of the day, they’re a multinational corporation whose entire purpose in existing is to squeeze pennies from consumers. The world could use fewer of these, in my opinion.


True, they are in business to make money, they just use various means to do so. While we would be better off with a lot fewer of these companies, it is the way of business now more so than ever before. There are fewer and fewer independent owners and more and more large corporations owning dozens of companies.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Henry's POV.....

Gibson CEO Henry Juszkiewicz: “Guitars from the ’50s are what the purists want, but we have to have something new and exciting” | MusicRadar


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## Skippy (May 3, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> Henry's POV.....
> 
> Gibson CEO Henry Juszkiewicz: “Guitars from the ’50s are what the purists want, but we have to have something new and exciting” | MusicRadar


Henry needs to go , sooner the better for the survival of this company. Fender is still selling guitars from the 50’s in droves to the younger demographic and also managed to resurrect Gretsch. Purists want well built guitars at an affordable price point and kids can’t afford $4000.00 new groovy Gibson designs. Don’t compare a wooden musical instrument to a film camera or other piece of electronics. The violin has not changed for centuries for a reason. I like the old Gibson models , well some anyways, and the only new and exciting I want to hear is better management, woods, quality control, and customer service.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> Henry's POV.....
> 
> Gibson CEO Henry Juszkiewicz: “Guitars from the ’50s are what the purists want, but we have to have something new and exciting” | MusicRadar


I don't think I understand what he's trying to say about blaming the purists and 50's designed guitars. Is he blaming us players that prefer the way they were made in the 50's? That would be ludicrous. Why not embrace it and pump out those 50's guitars. It would be so easy. The R&D was done decades ago all you have to do is make them. 
I never really considered my self a purist. I like what I like and I gravitate towards it. I have tried just about everything but the 5 guitars I own now are all faithful reissues. A 1939 and 1941 Martin Authentic, 1952 tele, 1956 strat reissue and a 1951 Nocaster. So its my fault companies like Gibson are failing. WTF.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong but this Henry guy should just make what people want and stop trying to come up with the next greatest thing. Guitarists in general are traditionalists and don't like to change much off the proven designs. I'm sure there are lots out there that like new and innovative but apparently not enough for Gibson.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Fender may be selling guitars from the 50s in droves, but not with totally 50s specs, especially with a 7.5" radius and vintage frets. I am NOT a purist either, but Henry seems more to force his ideas for innovation rather than let it come from the evolution of design that successfully tweaks and improves on an already good working idea. Hardcore luddite purists can irritate me to no end.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Robert1950 said:


> Fender may be selling guitars from the 50s in droves, *but not with totally 50s specs*, especially with a 7.5" radius and vintage frets. I am NOT a purist either, but Henry seems more to force his ideas for innovation rather than let it come from the evolution of design that successfully tweaks and improves on an already good working idea. Hardcore luddite purists can irritate me to no end.


I guess thats what makes me not quite a purist. My 3 Fender reissues all have 9.5 radius and 6105 frets. Cause its just what I like. I definitely like the 50's inspired for electrics. Both my Wildwood thin skins have rolled, beveled frets which if I'm not careful causes me to slip the high and low e string off the fretboard occasionally. I'm seriously considering having my 56 strat reissue re fretted to eliminate this.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Time for the workers to pull a Harley-Davidson and buy the company. Or maybe the company is still too valuable?
H-D sure doesn't have any qualms about flogging what is basically a 50's design.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Many of the woods those old Gibson's are made from are simply not available any more. Brazilian Rosewood, Ebony, and even most of the mahoganies simply aren't there. In fact, some of the mahoganies today, are not even true mahogany. Where many of these original trees came from have been decimated and are no longer producing or exporting wood. Genuine Mahogany comes from central and south America. African Mahogany is a different wood.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i've heard that before, but i don't buy into the tonewood thing. i still remember the cinder-block guitar


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

jb welder said:


> Time for the workers to pull a Harley-Davidson and buy the company. Or maybe the company is still too valuable?
> H-D sure doesn't have any qualms about flogging what is basically a 50's design.


True, but maybe that’s not the best analogy right now as Harley is struggling. Their designs are timeless and classic with a look that I hope never dies.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

cheezyridr said:


> i've heard that before, but i don't buy into the tonewood thing. i still remember the cinder-block guitar


I agree with to a point and only with electrics. I think there is some characteristics that shape electric guitar tones such as mahogany vs basswood but amp, pickup and effect choices pretty much drown all that out anyway.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> I don't think I understand what he's trying to say about blaming the purists and 50's designed guitars. Is he blaming us players that prefer the way they were made in the 50's? That would be ludicrous. Why not embrace it and pump out those 50's guitars. It would be so easy. The R&D was done decades ago all you have to do is make them.


How do you read his quote and get 'blame' out of it. You are reading what you want to and not what he wrote. He is simply stating that there is more than one side to the guitar market, and Gibson isn't servicing only part of it. He isn't blaming YOU for not buying his guitars.



> *Maybe I'm reading it wrong* but this Henry guy should just make what people want and stop trying to come up with the next greatest thing. Guitarists in general are traditionalists and don't like to change much off the proven designs. I'm sure there are lots out there that like new and innovative but apparently not enough for Gibson.


You are. Henry, as he stated, believes that Gibson has to have an eye on both markets. I guess if your bias is strong enough, you can read anything into a simple one-line statement though.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Many of the woods those old Gibson's are made from are simply not available any more. Brazilian Rosewood, Ebony, and even most of the mahoganies simply aren't there. In fact, some of the mahoganies today, are not even true mahogany. Where many of these original trees came from have been decimated and are no longer producing or exporting wood. Genuine Mahogany comes from central and south America. African Mahogany is a different wood.


Ebony is still available. Gretsch among others still use it. I don't know why Gibson chooses to use something else - perhaps to look environmental?

And genuine mahogany only comes from Cuba and Honduras, with a few small areas that it have been replanted (that aren't really a factor in the big picture). Cuba hasn't exported Swietenia species in over 80 years, and there is a limited supply of new genuine mahogany. All of the Meliaceae species that comes from central and south America, Africa and Asia is similar enough to genuine mahogany that it's referred to as that. And much cheaper and more plentiful. So chances are, when you see a 'mahogany guitar', it is close enough but not really.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

High/Deaf said:


> *How do you read his quote and get 'blame' out of it.* You are reading what you want to and not what he wrote. He is simply stating that there is more than one side to the guitar market, and Gibson isn't servicing only part of it. He isn't blaming YOU for not buying his guitars.
> 
> 
> 
> You are. Henry, as he stated, believes that Gibson has to have an eye on both markets. I guess if your bias is strong enough, you can read anything into a simple one-line statement though.





> Gibson CEO Henry Juszkiewicz has continued his defiant response to reports of Gibson’s potential bankruptcy, *blaming the company’s financial troubles on “problems with the guitar retail industry” and "purists".*


"Purists", meaning us guys who only like the 50's designs. You interpret it your way and I'll see it for what it says.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Robert1950 said:


> Henry's POV.....
> 
> Gibson CEO Henry Juszkiewicz: “Guitars from the ’50s are what the purists want, but we have to have something new and exciting” | MusicRadar


This is actually the quote you replied to. No blame whatsoever in that statement.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

I never understood why guitar companies that established themselves as legends with only a few models feel the need to make 400 variations of those models.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

butterknucket said:


> I never understood why guitar companies that established themselves as legends with only a few models feel the need to make 400 variations of those models.


I agree with you. However, I guess the bigger they get the more they feel they have to appeal to a wider demographic. Some celebrity musician changes the pickguard on his D-28 some time back in the 60's and Martin feels they got to make a homage to that. Bing you've got another model. You've got a reissue for this year one for that...
I think the guitar companies or at least Fender is starting to realize this problem. They've replaced the 1952 reissue with The American Original 50's and American Original 60's. Instead of having 2 or 3 Teles for one decade and same for strats just get down to one model for each decade.
But from what I see the problem doesn't solely lie with the guitar manufacturers. Its us. They release a model and if its popular we fall over our selves to by it. If it isn't popular its easy enough for the guitar companies to stop making them. 
The legendary guitar makers like Gibson, Fender and Martin have such a long history of guitar making that they've built a number of legendary guitars that they keep reissuing and people keep buying.
Martin came out with the vintage line that were close recreations of their pre-war. Then came the Marquis\Golden Era that were even closer. Then the Authentic series which is the closest yet. Whats next? And we keep buying them.


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

guitarman2 said:


> "Purists", meaning us guys who only like the 50's designs. You interpret it your way and I'll see it for what it says.


What does that make us guys that prefer acoustic designs from the 30's?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Morkolo said:


> What does that make us guys that prefer acoustic designs from the 30's?


I don't know. And I own a 1939 reissue.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Morkolo said:


> What does that make us guys that prefer acoustic designs from the 30's?


Nuts!


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## Skippy (May 3, 2006)

Morkolo said:


> What does that make us guys that prefer acoustic designs from the 30's?


Ultra Pure!


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Morkolo said:


> What does that make us guys that prefer acoustic designs from the 30's?


Poor. Or unsatisfied.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Gibson, rearranged is

iBongs

You're welcome


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Gibson, rearranged is
> 
> iBongs
> 
> You're welcome


That’s probably their endgame strategy, shhhhhhhhh..........


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## Whimpers (Feb 10, 2018)

no not a good idea


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## annuvin (Mar 24, 2017)

laristotle said:


> 'Boogie Van'. lol.
> Not that they would sell any better, but, they should have released them as World Cup Customs instead.


Any word on an "A-Team Edition"?



Morkolo said:


> According to what I've read in this thread so far "suckers" could reference *anyone* whose bought a Gibson in recent years.


Only if you believe the haters who can't afford one. My 2016 Les Paul Studio ran me $899 +tax and is worth every penny I paid for it. The fit and finish is excellent and I haven't had a single problem with it. Then again, I bought it from an authorized dealser (L+M), played it in-store and gave it a full inspection before I bought it. L+M gave it a free setup as part of the purchase price and it has no issues staying in tune as a result.

Now, either I lucked upon a real gem or a lot of stories being passed around about Gibson QC are being greatly exaggerated.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

In the NY Times today Henry admitted that bankruptcy is a possibility. I think this is the first time he's been so candid about it.

Is Gibson, a Totem of Guitar Godhead, Headed for Chapter 11?

*Mr. Juszkiewicz acknowledged that his hold on the company is at risk.

“It is accurate to say bankruptcy is a possibility in the sense that our bonds expire,” he said, although he was hopeful about ongoing discussions to refinance.*


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

One thing I'll give Henry is that at least he took ownership (edit: of the issue in the last link by @Steadfastly ). But he's still a fucktard in my books. Sorry for the bad language, but I hold the Gibson name in rather high regard. It's what I grew up on musically.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

By now, my sense is that most every guitar player on the internet wishes Henry never 'rescued' Gibson from Norlin. This is surprising, since I also see so many people who have been given such a horrible impression of the Norlin era by that very same beloved internet. Live by the sword and die by the sword?

I'm of the opinion that you can't stop progress. And a little dab of the Serenity Prayer may be in order for a whole bunch of people.


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

At least he’s admitted responsibility for the problems. Too many of those high-ups take every opportunity to pass the buck onto someone else in times of trouble.


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## Guest (Apr 2, 2018)




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