# Years from now, what do you think people will study about this time?



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There is never a time that ISN'T part of history, but there is little doubt that this time is a little more "unique" than other years. Imagine you're an academic or graduate student, 5 or 10 years from now, looking back at this year with some perspective and curiosity. What would you study about it? What sorta of big picture things, adaptations, changes, re-alignments, etc., would pique your interest?

For instance, medical and life-sciences researchers would normally attend conferences, present papers and posters there, send in papers for publication, and other activities that take time and patience. Current circumstances have precluded conferences, and the crisis itself has required both timely and broad international communication. Not that researchers didn't already have a history of international collaboration, but with international implications and something that is taking place everywhere, researchers have to know ASAP what others are doing and learning in other parts of the world. So, I think the manner in which scientific communication shifted will provide interesting material for historic study.

But there have to be other things too. Let your curiosity run wild.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

mhammer said:


> with international implications and something that is taking place everywhere





mhammer said:


> Let your curiosity run wild


It would depend on the political flavour at the time.
Will it be accurate facts or sunny ways dogma?


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

The woman from Georgia that was hosting CNN this morning said her daughter just received her driver's license online. She did not have to take a driving test. She did say that her daughter will not be driving by herself anytime soon as even she was surprised that they gave it to her.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I'm talking about pure intellectual curiosity and a desire to understand. No politics involved.

A terrific 1980 study took advantage of a naturally-occurring experiment. The question asked was whether school increases intelligence. The school district drew a line in which children born before December could begin attending school, but those born in December or later would have to wait another year. The researchers assessed the November and December-born kids prior to starting school, and a year later. The kids who had spent the year in school scored higher on intelligence tests, and noticeably more than might be accounted for by their difference in age (and a November 29 vs December 2 birthdate is not exactly an age difference of any substance).

I mention this because the current context also provides opportunities for studying aspects of education and development. For instance, will younger children lose any cooperative tendencies necessary to formal schooling, now that they don't have to "do things together as a class"? Yes, they normally spend 2 months away doing whatever the hell they want, but adding 4 months to that is a big chunk of a 6 or 7 year-old's life. What skills/areas of knowledge will have shown the most decline? More optimistically, what areas of learning may show the most unexpectedly rapid recovery? What will have happened to friendships? We know from the extensive research on people who lived through the Great Depression that the effects on development depended on how old you were at the time.

That's just one small corner of the things we might study and learn from, without prejudice or politics. It's one big old fascinating and surprising world, and sometimes when it throws a monkey wrench into everything, it gets even more fascinating and surprising.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Guitar101 said:


> The woman from Georgia that was hosting CNN this morning said her daughter just received her driver's license online. She did not have to take a driving test. She did say that her daughter will not be driving by herself anytime soon as even she was surprised that they gave it to her.


Well that makes an interesting topic for study: five years from now, will those who got licensed on-line, without an actual test, have a different accident record from those who were tested and licensed in the normal way?


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

Lots of fascinating social questions to explore (I'm a sociologist), but I would bet future researchers will want to study which Klone was the most accurate.

TG


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

Depends.

If we end up with fascist government, as some would like and are attempting, then people will study well-gilded versions of the government's great leadership and actions in coping with the pandemic.

If not, then people will study the gaping failures of the government and the measures - including major overhauls of the way government is done - that were implemented to ensure that such failures can't occur again on any front involving the safety and security of Canada's population.

Hopefully the latter, and hopefully LONG before it's history because too few people study history anymore.

Hopefully, too, more young people will have an interest in science sparked by the pandemic and we will end up with many more scientists. Not more activists and bureaucrats with a science degree but legions of new people driven by curiosity and facts and a passion for discovery. People who spark a revolution of world-leading made-in-Canada products and solutions not only to the problem of rapid-spreading infectious disease but also to problems of carbon mitigation, efficient health care systems, urban living, population impacts, sustainable food stocks and farming, coastal protection, energy generation, transportation, etc. They would not only solve problems but create another wave of well-founded prosperity and security as was enjoyed in the last half of the last century.

Finally, also hopefully, people will be studying how and why we got into the precarious circumstances we were already in before the pandemic, now made much worse by it, and how we turned things around to prevent such mass somnolence from recurring.

Or, maybe there won't be nearly as much studying of anything going on as people become preoccupied with just surviving as one viral or economic or social pandemic after another washes over their lives.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

I figure probably about the same as they study about the Black Death times and the Spanish Flue times and even the Viet Nam War times.....next to nothing. Even going back 10 years or so, for most of the people it won't mean much.....20 years, even less.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

first off ... an lot more video conferencing / e-mailing of reports and findings , rather than actual globe trotting to them.

a lot more e-learning WILL be the norm.
teacher numbers will be downsized ... one can teach hundreds at a time and electronically grade papers
actual physical schools will be reduced in size (specialty learning only )

social habits / interactive skills will degrade quickly ...
people will have to discern more from the face than overall body language.
kids will rely less on "what the cool kids are doing / wearing at school"
motor skills will go down ... more time spent on screen time than "playing"
probably a more "cold" social environment ( or more so than today ) with less interaction in cities .
if we're lucky ... someone will smarten up and get rid of "intensification" ... and more towards the urban (low rise) model

more geared towards stand alone work for companies ( work from home / video / zoom / etc ) when dealing with customers .
fewer people will be driving to work... insurance companies will have to find other ways to gouge us.

environmentalists will have a hard time getting to protest sites ( fewer with cars and less public transit )
let's see how dedicated they are to the cause when they have to walk / bike the last 20 km to the rally
more like "click" on the website if you want to protest .

laws will change and allow fully automated trains with push/bush bars at the front ( anything on the track = gone )
big brother will attempt to coddle us as long as we give up certain freedoms and become good little "revenue tools".

more academic studies will be stifled, as they won't fall into the current way of thinking.

history will be bent and distorted to suit the "present" day norns.
so most will be discouraged from digging too deep ... basically the same as today.
and "laying the blame" will be frowned upon by anyone in power (lest it happen again on their watch)


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

The time we killed the climate crisis and created an economic one?


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

not our fault ! 
besides it was a global crisis , completely out of our hands .


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

mhammer said:


> Well that makes an interesting topic for study: five years from now, will those who got licensed on-line, without an actual test, have a different accident record from those who were tested and licensed in the normal way?


You might also be able to study allowing students to graduate this year because they couldn't finish their year. A few years from now when their applying for a job they might get "Oh, I see you graduated in 2020. Were not accepting graduates from that year right now."


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

would make no difference than a high school diploma from last year .....

did you show up for most of the classes ? did you participate ?
stamp stamp, NEXT! ... everyone gets a diploma in ontario ...
no where does it say how well you performed.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

1) Please, no politics, no matter how tempting, and try to avoid expressions of cynicism.
2) There's another thread where I asked what might change, so please no predicted changes here.

Some stuff might stay the same in spite of what's going on, some stuff might change, and some stuff might diverge for a bit and then go back to "normal". I'm asking what you think scholars a few years down the line would be _curious_ about exploring, documenting, and explaining. It could be what allowed something to rebound smoothly in location X but with bumps in location Y - stuff we're seeing around us now, but don't quite yet understand or have perspective on.

If you don't know how to be intellectually curious then please confine yourself to other threads.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Guitar101 said:


> Oh, I see you graduated in 2020


'Sorry, we have enough janitors'.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

unfortunately , there will be no incentive for finding out ...

any attempt at doing so , will ultimately end up point fingers at someone ... 
a social NO NO today because of political correctness. 
it will get a lot worse in the future .

those with any realistic outlook will not rock the boat (within the next 20-25 years)
anything beyond that time frame will end up being too far back to care about. (or even remember)

case in point ... SARS , sadly a similar scenario ... what did we learn from it ?
not much according to what we are going through today ...
academia studied it , drew conclusions , posted their findings , and it was promptly shelved and buried to be forgotten.

sorry about being a pessimist , but even the most ardent student of history will be persuaded to "let it be".
written history is too easy to change or delete today ...


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

We have access to much more information now, yet much more confusion.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

and fake news from all corners of the universe. 
"one grain of truth , mixed with confusion caused by man"


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

mhammer said:


> Some stuff might stay the same in spite of what's going on, some stuff might change, and some stuff might diverge for a bit and then go back to "normal". I'm asking what you think scholars a few years down the line would be _curious_ about exploring, documenting, and explaining.


If "scholars a few years down the line" are NOT "_curious_ about exploring, documenting, and explaining" the serious government failures in handling this epidemic, and finding solutions to this and other problems listed in my previous message that are (in many cases) different from the approaches being taken now, then there may not be as much "down the line" as we'd all hope to see.



mhammer said:


> If you don't know how to be intellectually curious then please confine yourself to other threads.


I especially hope that a wave of new scientists "exploring, documenting, and explaining" and finding solutions to problems will not be deterred from their quests by pontificating intellectual imperiousness and academic constraints on their explorations, constraints imposed by people whose thinking has contributed much to the problems they need to solve and little to solutions they need to find. I hope - and have some optimism about it in a post-pandemic world - that they will feel impelled to seek practical purpose in their study (which doesn't only mean creating commercial products) and feel less inclined to play intellectual pocket pool without much practical aim or intent.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Sorry Mark but it will be the politics of the time. How divided we are, and how we got here. How the division led the the disregard for science. How the internet, which should have been (and in part is) a great tool for education and community, was also used to do the exact opposite. How governments at all levels were able to leverage the events for more control. How doing so led to economic collapse.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

oldjoat said:


> case in point ... SARS , sadly a similar scenario ... what did we learn from it ?
> not much according to what we are going through today ...
> academia studied it , drew conclusions , posted their findings , and it was promptly shelved and buried to be forgotten.


I don't know that I'd say that, Peter. We weren't quite as prepared as we _could_ have been (something one can claim about anything in life, be it epidemics, home purchase, raising kids, the final biochem.calculus exam, that last band gig, etc.), but many public health experts have said that SARS taught us much about how to respond more effectively. Not perfectly, but more effectively and promptly than if SARS had never occurred.

But I don't want to get into a battle of could've/would've/should've. I'm interested in what the present circumstances offer up for study that would generally never take place in quite this way. Life is obviously distressing for many at the moment, and not mere fodder for someone's hobby, but consider this time/year like suddenly stumbling onto the Galapagos Islands like Darwin, or the Lascaux cave paintings, and studying things that are absolutely fascinating and make you think in new perspectives.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

boyscout said:


> I especially hope that a wave of new scientists "exploring, documenting, and explaining" and finding solutions to problems will not be deterred from their quests by pontificating intellectual imperiousness and academic constraints on their explorations, constraints imposed by people whose thinking has contributed much to the problems they need to solve and little to solutions they need to find. I hope - and have some optimism about it in a post-pandemic world - that they will feel impelled to seek practical purpose in their study (which doesn't only mean creating commercial products) and feel less inclined to play intellectual pocket pool without much practical aim or intent.


Out there, right now, are 15, 16 and 17 year-olds, who are going to go on to higher education with the experience of this invading their lives, and the curiosity fire that maybe only youth can bring. They will become graduate students, and maybe faculty, or work for an NGO, or be a political staffer for somebody at some level, and they will be driven to learn more about what happened to us as a society, how it might have been different here vs there and that other place. And they will stay up late, drinking coffee and debating with friends and colleagues, trying to make sense of it, provide an explanation, and a documentation for future generations of what what maybe the rest of us could not see because we were too close to it.

Those are, after all, the people who brought us the wheel, flour, pigments for paint, microscopes, penicillin, computing, and all the rest. We're counting on them to be less jaded and more curious than us. We're counting on them to NOT have it all figured out, and _need_ to figure it out.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

keto said:


> Sorry Mark but it will be the politics of the time. How divided we are, and how we got here. How the division led the the disregard for science. How the internet, which should have been (and in part is) a great tool for education and community, was also used to do the exact opposite. How governments at all levels were able to leverage the events for more control. How doing so led to economic collapse.


You're focusing too much on only a few things. They are not _unimportant_ things, by any stretch, but they are a tiny fraction of what has taken place, and may still take place.

I hope Terry O'Reilly does an _Under the Influence_ episode on "We're all in this together" ads, which seem relentless these days, whether it's A&W, Nurses Unions, or State Farm insurance. One sees similar sorts of things when tragedy or duress affects a large-enough share of the audience (e.g., wildfires, floods, etc.). )All these businesses and corporations trying to tell you how much they empathize and thank these people and those people. I don't know that it is_ insincere_, and I don't wish to be cynical about it, but at the same time, businesses with enough reason to advertise on TV or Youtube, obviously have a motivation to keep their brand alive, and can't run ads that pretend nothing of any import is going on. I'm curious about how and when advertising will revert back to "regular life", and whether it will happen all at once, or in stages.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

I already gave my prognosis in the other thread, but I am going to re-iterate in greater detail. This is not cynicism, Mark, but rather "past-predicts-future".

Year 2000: Y2K (historic non-event)
Year 2010: H1N1 (historic non-event) 
Year 2020: COVID19 (historic non-event) 
Year 2030: XSBS (historic non-event)


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Well, Ok, that was kinda cynical...


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

Personally, I think we’re still too close to the event and we still don’t know the final outcome. How this situation resolves will define how people look back on this era. Was it a time of government over-reaction? Was it a time of government under-reaction? We can say whatever we want today, history will judge us based on their own metrics, some of which we may not recognize.

I do think this era will be studied for the effects of information management/sharing, the effects and roll of media, corporate/government manipulation of information/media, etc. This is an area where I see massive regulation happening in the near term, and people are going to invest a lot of resources arguing about it.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

_Azrael said:


> I do think this era will be studied for the effects of information management/sharing, the effects and roll of media, corporate/government manipulation of information/media, etc.


Get ready for the XSBS crisis of 2030...


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Maybe isolation will become the new life goal?

"I don't want your botheration... get away from me."


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

KapnKrunch said:


> Well, Ok, that was kinda cynical...


Yes it was.

2020, far from forgotten will be celebrated as the first "Year We Were All Called To Prayers".


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

allthumbs56 said:


> Yes it was.
> 
> 2020, far from forgotten will be celebrated as the first "Year We Were All Called To Prayers".


I am Cynical. You are Dramatic. That's OK. Its who we are.

History will quickly forget this "non-event" as media and its acolytes eagerly embrace the next big crisis. 

It is a terrible time for the families involved (including my own daughter). But historically... there's nothing here, 
I think. 

[My daily prayers, by their general nature, include you. That's not where my cynicism lies. Look again.]


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Year 2038 problem - Wikipedia


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

KapnKrunch said:


> I am Cynical. You are Dramatic. That's OK. Its who we are.
> 
> History will quickly forget this "non-event" as media and its acolytes eagerly embrace the next big crisis.
> 
> ...


Hey - no offense intended. I was referring to the recent news articles about loudspeakers now being mounted outside of mosques ...................


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

allthumbs56 said:


> Hey - no offense intended. I was referring to the recent news articles about loudspeakers now being mounted outside of mosques ...................


Lol. Did I ever read that wrong! Sorry bro. Thanks for clarifying.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

butterknucket said:


> Year 2038 problem - Wikipedia


Lol. Followed in 2048 by H2N2.


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

allthumbs56 said:


> Hey - no offense intended. I was referring to the recent news articles about loudspeakers now being mounted outside of mosques ...................


Having lived in a few countries where that’s standard, I found it kind of peaceful/soothing.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> Yes it was.
> 
> 2020, far from forgotten will be celebrated as the first "Year We Were All Called To Prayers".


Nope. My gods don't call to prayers and they like human sacrifices. Especially Arawan, Gwynn Ap Nudd and Aine.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

KapnKrunch said:


> Lol. Followed in 2048 by H2N2.


Wasn't H2N2 in the 50's? The Asian Flu? Killed more than a million people world wide before it died out? I think I can remember being vaccinated for that. Followed by H3N2.


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## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

After following what has transpired to our neighbour to the south in recent times, I've lost all faith in predictions of any sort.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

mhammer said:


> consider this time/year like suddenly stumbling onto the Galapagos Islands like Darwin, or the Lascaux cave paintings, and studying things that are absolutely fascinating and make you think in new perspectives.


been out of the "loop" for a long time ... but seen very few younger folks interested in the past history , let alone the present.
if it ain't on the smart phone , they don't know about it .

if they want to know something ... just whip out the cell and try to google it .
then promptly forget about it.

I think the days of interest , wonder and desire to learn new things is drawing to a close with the "younger" generations .

thankfully , there are a few good ones left ... but they / we are a dying breed.

ask one of them to change a tire , use a rotary phone and where do brown eggs come from ? 

you have multi interests ( wide and deep I'm sure ) and add new ones almost daily.

the same goes here .... and I have a wish that many new folks would pickup the thirst for knowledge / insight torch
but time after time , I'm disappointed .


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

oldjoat said:


> been out of the "loop" for a long time ... but seen very few younger folks interested in the past history , let alone the present.
> if it ain't on the smart phone , they don't know about it .
> 
> if they want to know something ... just whip out the cell and try to google it .
> ...


As I recall, back in the day when we, or at least I, were part of the younger generation....say 15 to 20 or so, we weren't interested in past history that much either. Sex, alcohol, drugs, cars and motorcycles etc. took the fore front. What was the text book in school...gr 9 or 10 I think....'Our History' or something like that. The part about Canada was about 20 pages long. Most of the other history covered was about the middle ages with a few other things that had no bearing on getting a job etc.. By the way, what causes brown eggs? As far as changing a tire goes, are meaning the car has a flat tire so put an inflated tire on it or, this tire is flat or worn out, fix it?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I ask for folks to put in their research grant proposals, and what you give me is "Kids today! Feh!"? Gotta dig deeper than that, guys.


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

either of these. or maybe both

a: how we were almost wiped out completely, as a species
b: how we managed to work together & survive


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

mhammer said:


> I ask for folks to put in their research grant proposals, and what you give me is "Kids today! Feh!"? Gotta dig deeper than that, guys.


Not a lot here putting in for research grants these days. And even less that would get one.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

yeah , it covered confederation , the war of 1812 , the war between the french and english ( the brits won BTW ) and the purge of the acadians.
so about 20 pages 

it was printed in the states and had a map ... marked as "natural resources" under the words "CANADA" .

red/dark hens with red earlobes = brown eggs 
was referring to flat tire ( put the spare on ) ... yea I know, no spare today ... call the CAA

research grant ?
to study the preponderance of lack of interest of events within the recent past in relation to the absence of monetary remuneration.

the title to be "sex , drugs and rock'n roll is a lot more fun than thinking"
sub titled "the eternal problems associated with youth" 

edited by "old fogies, et al"

sorry , I couldn't help myself ....


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

oldjoat said:


> yeah , it covered confederation , the war of 1812 , the war between the french and english ( the brits won BTW ) and the purge of the acadians.
> so about 20 pages
> 
> it was printed in the states and had a map ... marked as "natural resources" under the words "CANADA" .
> ...


I almost got in a lot of trouble drinking with some Vets. in the Legion in Bellows Falls Vt. Most of them were riders. As is possibly normal in those conditions there was some mention of American Armed Forces. Some one brought up the Iran Hostage thing and then the war of 1812 was mentioned. 
Another thing I remember about the text.....because it was circled in ink.....was the picture of a farmer taking a leak while looking at the american dust bowl. Learned more from the National Geographic from that time.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

oldjoat said:


> I think the days of interest , wonder and desire to learn new things is drawing to a close with the "younger" generations .


That’s ridiculous. Are you basing this on the fact you’ve given up?


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Just wondering, since history and learning/studying have been brought up, what's May 5th? Aside from a Tuesday this year.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

KapnKrunch said:


> Lol. Followed in 2048 by H2N2.


Well, if they don't solve the 2038 problem then perhaps the virus won't know when it's 2048


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> I ask for folks to put in their research grant proposals, and what you give me is "Kids today! Feh!"? Gotta dig deeper than that, guys.


It's not up to us - it's gonna be whatever future governments and school boards decide students should be learning. I couldn't begin to guess what that may be - there's a lot being rewritten, made obsolete and newly significant. My best guess is that the paragraph that gets taught will be about how well the powers that be responded with great success.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> 2020, far from forgotten will be celebrated as the first "Year We Were All Called To Prayers".


And possibly the year in which the flattened 5th was banned again.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

It's The Great Fuckening.

The medical history will become well defined and factually scientific. This is what happened and how. Period.

The socio-economic history will take longer, have more interpretations, and the future may or may not take lessons from it.

The political history will be grudge bearing, blame shifting, full of denial and partisanship, hand-wringing, and hand washing will become "I've washed my hands of that".

The musical history will show a peak in solo recording, online collaborations, parody and lampooning, and survival song-writing (to sort of coin a term).

The study of current affairs will wonder why the new normal is worse than the old normal and why the opportunity to better the world was squandered. 

It's The Great Fuckening.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

LanceT said:


> That’s ridiculous. Are you basing this on the fact you’ve given up?


 nowhere do I say I've given up ...

I'm still learning and questioning things every day .

the observation was of the younger folks .... very little interest in anything that doesn't involve "fun" 
(as it was with most young people)


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

BTW 2038 is only a problem if you're still running a 32 bit OS in 2038 ...


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

The sudden inability to get hair clippers.


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

butterknucket said:


> The sudden inability to get hair clippers.


I’m hoping the army will decide barbers are a threat to force protection and that I‘ll never have to get my hair cut again.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

oldjoat said:


> if it ain't on the smart phone , they don't know about it.


I'm going to guess you haven't interacted with many 20-somethings lately then? The number of economic collapses and disasters they've lived through in 20 years is pretty astounding.

Also, all of history is on a smartphone with an internet connection, so I don't understand your point.

We have memes about Van Gogh not being able to wear a mask, c'mon.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

_Azrael said:


> I’m hoping the army will decide barbers are a threat to force protection and that I‘ll never have to get my hair cut again.


From what I've seen of the hair cuts the grand kids of friends who are in the army (the grand kids, not the friends) have a lot different hair cut than when I had an "army" haircut in the 60's. I remember my hair was about 2" long and an RSM shouted at me, calling me jesus and telling me to get my fu%king ass off his parade square and not come back until it was 'proper army style'. Reg army he was, RCEME, and I was a grunt, BCD, so it was, "Yes Sir Sgt. Major! 3 Bags Full Sgt. Major! Up Yours Sgt. Major!" Didn't get my hair cut for a years after that.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

oldjoat said:


> nowhere do I say I've given up ...
> 
> I'm still learning and questioning things every day .
> 
> ...


Still think you’re dreaming. I work with quite a few people younger than me and their work ethic is awesome. Love the energy and their outlook on things.
That's in addition to my kids, one who just finished his plumbing apprenticeship and is now a journeyman at barely 23.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)




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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Budda said:


> I'm going to guess you haven't interacted with many 20-somethings lately then? The number of economic collapses and disasters they've lived through in 20 years is pretty astounding.
> 
> Also, all of history is on a smartphone with an internet connection, so I don't understand your point.
> 
> We have memes about Van Gogh not being able to wear a mask, c'mon.


I agree with you about the not interacting with 20 somethings thing, but, you have to remember for a lot of those years the economic collapses and disasters they lived thru affected dad's and grand dad's wallets, not theirs. My son is 40 this year and up until he was 17 his mother and I supported him, even when I bought him a car so he could do his newspaper route in his last year of high school. He took the routes no one else wanted....had 4 of them that were out in the country and one was about a 30 mile round trip. I'd say since then he's been out of work for about a year, if that. 
The history point is, going by kids and grand kids i know, is that yes, history is on your phone, if you're interested in looking it up. When was the last time you looked up the history of say Aids or Ebola except in say the last year. I
f you're basing your "search of history" on say, this, 








c'mon. Now, who did this








For an extra 10 points who played Van Gogh and who played the guy who did the above picture?


----------



## keto (May 23, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> I agree with you about the not interacting with 20 somethings thing, but, you have to remember for a lot of those years the economic collapses and disasters they lived thru affected dad's and grand dad's wallets, not theirs. My son is 40 this year and up until he was 17 his mother and I supported him, even when I bought him a car so he could do his newspaper route in his last year of high school. He took the routes no one else wanted....had 4 of them that were out in the country and one was about a 30 mile round trip. I'd say since then he's been out of work for about a year, if that.
> The history point is, going by kids and grand kids i know, is that yes, history is on your phone, if you're interested in looking it up. When was the last time you looked up the history of say Aids or Ebola except in say the last year. I
> f you're basing your "search of history" on say, this,
> 
> ...


Kirk Douglas and I’m not sure, possibly an actor?


----------



## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Electraglide said:


> .. what's May 5th? Aside from a Tuesday this year.


Taco Tuesday.


----------



## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

keto said:


> Kirk Douglas and I’m not sure, possibly an actor?


You know that 'cause you're getting up in years but maybe not enough if you never saw the 1952 Moulin Rouge.


----------



## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Wardo said:


> Taco Tuesday.


@_Azrael.....what's May the 5th?


----------



## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

Electraglide said:


> @_Azrael.....what's May the 5th?


Cinco de Mayo?


----------



## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

_Azrael said:


> Cinco de Mayo?


You ever been in Holland, especially in uniform, on May the 4th and 5th?


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I hope people aren't studying extinct languages ....... 

............ like English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Italian, Australian ..........


----------



## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> I hope people aren't studying extinct languages .......
> 
> ............ like English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Italian, Australian ..........


Kail ne?


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

Budda said:


> I'm going to guess you haven't interacted with many 20-somethings lately then?


sure have ... and most have their noses stuck in their smart phones , take calls / respond to texts when you're in a conversation with them at work .
when I handed a company internal letter to one , she told me to send it to her phone .... so she could read it later when she had time.

she was told to read it "now" and return it to me by the end of the day with any questions she had .... and to sign that she had read it.
when questioned later "do you have any questions?" she said "no, I didn't have time to read it "
"did you sign it ?" .... "Oh yes "

that went for all 3 young'uns that were on the sales floor .... ( some had been there for over a year )

the pamphlet was to let them know that all sales personnel were being switched from hourly to commission ....


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

oldjoat said:


> sure have ... and most have their noses stuck in their smart phones , take calls / respond to texts when you're in a conversation with them at work .
> when I handed a company internal letter to one , she told me to send it to her phone .... so she could read it later when she had time.
> 
> she was told to read it "now" and return it to me by the end of the day with any questions she had .... and to sign that she had read it.
> ...


out of the 3 you met, most had their nose stuck in a phone, ....


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

LanceT said:


> one who just finished his plumbing apprenticeship and is now a journeyman at barely 23.


ahhh ! trades ! completely different bunch of actually enthusiastic kids ... motivated by getting ahead thru hard work , long hours and good pay.

completely different mind set from the regular kids .


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

vadsy said:


> out of the 3 you met, most had their nose stuck in a phone, ....


2 out of 3 and sometimes 3 of 3 at work ... even when a customer walked in .

or they'd text each other ....


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

oldjoat said:


> ahhh ! trades ! completely different bunch of actually enthusiastic kids ... motivated by getting ahead thru hard work , long hours and good pay.
> 
> completely different mind set from the regular kids .


haven’t been out much in the field either, hey?


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

used to be out daily ... the trades were always "busy" ... those kids that weren't , didn't last long .


----------



## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

oldjoat said:


> sure have ... and most have their noses stuck in their smart phones , take calls / respond to texts when you're in a conversation with them at work .
> when I handed a company internal letter to one , she told me to send it to her phone .... so she could read it later when she had time.
> 
> she was told to read it "now" and return it to me by the end of the day with any questions she had .... and to sign that she had read it.
> ...


Seems you're basing your assumptions on 3 "young'uns" on a sales floor. You get the same things.....noses stuck in their cell phones etc. from "adults" too.


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Electraglide said:


> Seems you're basing your assumptions on 3 "young'uns" on a sales floor. You get the same things.....noses stuck in their cell phones etc. from "adults" too.


whoa whoa whoa, ... I had it under control.

just kidding, I'm too lazy,. you go ahead


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Pretty much everyone i work with doesnt actually read the stuff we sign off on. Somehow that's unique to early 20s? Take a poll of who actually reads the ToS for things they use. Then try and guess their age.

By your metric, less adult drivers should be on the road - those are the people i see texting and driving the most.


----------



## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

Electraglide said:


> You ever been in Holland, especially in uniform, on May the 4th and 5th?


No. I’ve marched in Nijmegen (40km/day w/ 55lb rucksack, x 4 days), but it was in July.


----------



## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

lotsa idiots (young and old) using their phones in cars

stupidity has no age barrier.


----------



## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

oldjoat said:


> ahhh ! trades ! completely different bunch of actually enthusiastic kids ... motivated by getting ahead thru hard work , long hours and good pay.
> 
> completely different mind set from the regular kids .


These are the same kids.


----------



## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

LanceT said:


> These are the same kids.


Yup, my son was about the same age when he got his Plannermans. About 32 I think when he got his Millwrights. The hard work and long hrs are part of the job. 8 days on and 6 days off 80+ hrs a shift and work overtime when he wants. Good money means he can buy the toys and play with them. And he does. Same mind set as the 'regular' kids. Right now because of Covid they've gone from the normal 8 and 6 to 4 and 3. Same amount of time on and off just a 'shorter' work week. 


Budda said:


> Pretty much everyone i work with doesnt actually read the stuff we sign off on. Somehow that's unique to early 20s? Take a poll of who actually reads the ToS for things they use. Then try and guess their age.
> 
> By your metric, less adult drivers should be on the road - those are the people i see texting and driving the most.


Nah, signing a piece of paper some management toad shoves at you isn't unique to early 20's. Especially if they've been shoving the same pieces of paper for years. Laast job I had I gave up signing stuff like that.....waste of time unless I was out on site and they had "indoctrination". Age wise around here texting and driving are young and old but there does seem to be more kids texting and riding bicycles....damned kids. 
Texting at work.....couldn't do it back in the day but we had these








with something like this.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

ahh ha! the old 9V killer


----------



## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

oldjoat said:


> ahh ha! the old 9V killer


You got 15 to 20 D cells and a strong right arm?


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Future fossils will be interesting, if ever there is a species that survives to study them.

I hope the study of how the environment recovered starts now.


----------



## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

oldjoat said:


> lotsa idiots (young and old) using their phones in cars
> 
> stupidity has no age barrier.


The surprising thing about young fools is how many survive to become old fools._ Doug Larson_


----------



## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Doug Gifford said:


> The surprising thing about young fools is how many survive to become old fools._ Doug Larson_


The fact that we're all here proves that.


----------



## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Psychologists, sociologists (ugh!), etc. will study what we did, how we dealt with it, etc.

Historians probably won't study much other than the origins of it and government policies when dealing with it.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

colchar said:


> Psychologists, sociologists (ugh!), etc. will study what we did, how we dealt with it, etc.
> 
> Historians probably won't study much other than the origins of it and government policies when dealing with it.


But I would expect that, insomuch as it has renewed interest in previous pandemics - the recent occurrence of articles on the Spanish flu as one example - that there would be historians curious about how responses to such phenomena changed over time. There is also, I'd imagine, a kind of overlap between what gets called "cultural studies" and history, particularly the manner in which things happening to pretty much the whole world now can be _known_ by almost the entire world (and _contested _by factions within those parts of the world). I've corresponded with folks in Italy, Portugal, England, Scotland, and many parts of the USA about what's doing in their neck of the woods. That's kind of a new thing. I mean, people _did _write letters and keep diaries and such, but the instantaneity changes the experience.

That said, you're probably right that more interest might be generated in the public policy and initiatives side of things. But, we'll see what happens. It's not over yet, eh?


----------



## colchar (May 22, 2010)

mhammer said:


> But I would expect that, insomuch as it has renewed interest in previous pandemics - the recent occurrence of articles on the Spanish flu as one example - that there would be historians curious about how responses to such phenomena changed over time.


Doubtful. They are two different worlds/societies/circumstances so there isn't much point in comparing them.




> There is also, I'd imagine, a kind of overlap between what gets called "cultural studies" and history, particularly the manner in which things happening to pretty much the whole world now can be _known_ by almost the entire world (and _contested _by factions within those parts of the world). I've corresponded with folks in Italy, Portugal, England, Scotland, and many parts of the USA about what's doing in their neck of the woods. That's kind of a new thing. I mean, people _did _write letters and keep diaries and such, but the instantaneity changes the experience.


Yeah but the immediate nature of the messages has nothing to do with the virus, and everything to do with newer technologies.


----------



## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

mhammer said:


> That said, you're probably right that more interest might be generated in the public policy and initiatives side of things. But, we'll see what happens. It's not over yet, eh?


The narrative about the origins of Covid-19 is shifting towards something that was dismissed as loony conspiracy theory near the beginning of the pandemic: that the virus originated in a Chinese government laboratory in Wuhan and NOT in the wet market there. A detailed story of its likely-accidental release from the lab is told in the video at the first link below.

Part of the story relates that a senior scientist at the lab and her team have been studying extremely-dangerous pathogens there for about a decade, in full view of the global scientific community and with the knowledge and cooperation of other scientists from around the world. A separate story recently published in the National Post (second link below) reports that Canadian scientists at Canada's own National Microbiology Lab that studies these things have known about and contributed to Chinese studies, and have even sent samples of some of the nastiest known bugs to China for study there.

Although these years of study in Canada, China, and elsewhere don't seem to have contributed much to our understanding of how to defeat these bugs, I'd stop short of saying that they should not be studied at all... the studies may one day provide that life-saving information.

However the "fail-safe" systems in such labs to protect against release of their subjects and products are only as good as the systems and the scientists' rigid adherence to the protocols in them. In one of our businesses we did government-required inspections of labs. None of the labs were as high-security as these ones are but we know from staying abreast in the industry that the kinds of safety-protocol failures we've seen during our inspections have occurred in even the most secure of labs in countries around the world. Now especially including the Chinese government's lab in Wuhan, with catastrophic global consequences.

So in answer to "what will people be studying?" I'd stop short of saying, "NOT these viruses", but would hope and expect that people will be intently studying the ways that safety systems break down and devising ways to better ensure that they do not fail.

The Epoch Times - Tracking Down the Origin of the Wuhan Coronavirus

Canadian lab immersed in RCMP probe sent Ebola and another deadly virus to China: health agency


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I started to write out a response, but there's no point. I need to get back to building the 6-stage phaser I've been working on.

You're not particularly interested in guitars, are you.


----------



## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

Epoch Times = Falun Gong vehicle for anti-China propaganda.

Like any media, you need to understand their editorial bent and read between the lines.


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

_Azrael said:


> Like any media, you need to understand their editorial bent and read between the lines.


FUREY: Chinese Canadian dissidents are under attack, and the CBC has joined the pile-on


----------



## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

laristotle said:


> FUREY: Chinese Canadian dissidents are under attack, and the CBC has joined the pile-on


Toronto Star = Hates publicly funded CBC because it can unfairly undercut them on advertising.

(I’m not saying the Toronto Star is wrong, just that any TS article that attacks the CBCs credibility has to be viewed through the lens of competing news outlets fighting for market share)


----------



## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

_Azrael said:


> Toronto Star = Hates publicly funded CBC because it can unfairly undercut them on advertising.
> 
> (I’m not saying the Toronto Star is wrong, just that any TS article that attacks the CBCs credibility has to be viewed through the lens of competing news outlets fighting for market share)


That article was Sun, not Star. And of course they are not permitted to print anything that is not anti-CBC.
P.S. you know T star basically owns this joint (vertical scope)?


----------



## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

jb welder said:


> That article was Sun, not Star. And of course they are not permitted to print anything that is not anti-CBC.
> P.S. you know T star basically owns this joint (vertical scope)?


I don't read or watch hews.

However. An article in the Star got my attention in recent years. It was about the dangers of the oilfield. The article centred around my neighbourhood. I know the people interviewed. I live beside the facility. I did some welding there for a couple of days. You can believe the Star or you can believe me. The "facts" in the story were contrived to alarm the reader. The story was complete bullshit. 

I don't read or watch the news.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

_Azrael said:


> Epoch Times = Falun Gong vehicle for anti-China propaganda.
> 
> Like any media, you need to understand their editorial bent and read between the lines.


That whole organization is a weird one, that seems to share some traits with Scientology, and some of the televangelist churches. Epoch Times, of course, can be found pretty much everywhere, free. How? No doubt you've seen those daily full-page, full-colour ads, billboards and TV spots for the Shen Yun show ("5000 years of Chinese culture!") that precede the show in your town by what seems to be months. There's no way the shows can actually make money, given the cost of the advertising, and mere production and transportation costs for the people putting it on, unless tix go for $1k/seat, with no comps and a full house. So how do they do it? The best guess is that members contribute...a lot.

As a belief system, not especially bizarre or pernicious. No space alien mythology, or animal sacrifices. But Beijing has a history of not being big on religions, and FG's constant criticism of the Beijing government understandably earns Beijing's wrath. However, I don't expect suppression of Falun Gong is worse than Beijing's suppression of Buddhist Tibet or Uighurs. Former MP David Kilgour and a local rabbi have been on a bit of a crusade about the Chinese government using imprisoned Falun Gong members to harvest organs from for transplants. Is it true? I don't know. Weird terrible unconscienable shit takes place in jails around the world, and it's not like the Falun Gong _haven't_ been a thorn in the side of the government. They also were major contributors to Trump's campaign - some would say because of his generally strong anti-China stance - and heavily advertised on Facebook until last year.

In any event, it is hard to take anything pertaining to either China or Trump that appears in any Epoch Times article or video particularly seriously. They have a very singular focus and agenda untainted by open-mindedness. It's like being in the company of a parent in the midst of a bitter divorce and custody dispute, who will say and accuse the other parent of just about anything to get back at them. That, of course, goes for both Beijing and FG.

With that, back to your regular program, already in progress.

Business schools will undoubtedly be studying the transformation of the restaurant and hospitality industry, five years from now. It's a tough biz to be in under any circumstances, let alone the current ones. I'm sure all of you can identify a location in your municipality where it seemed like a new restaurant cropped up every 6 months, only to go under; lots of motivation and good intentions, but not the business-plan to match. So what sort of business plan lets a bar, restaurant, motel, B & B, etc., survive through to 2021 and beyond? Government support will keep them treading water for a bit, but once they hit dry land, what then?


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

_Azrael said:


> Epoch Times = Falun Gong vehicle for anti-China propaganda.
> 
> Like any media, you need to understand their editorial bent and read between the lines.


But how else do you protest a totalitarian govt that kills dissenters with no recourse or public outcry from the rest of the world? Really, ask that guy who stood in front of the tank 30 years ago how that worked out for him? Or the first guy writing an email to his friends about the virus?

You are right, you need to always understand the source. But I wouldn't look to the CCP and it's media, producing internal and external propaganda (including the >70,000 twitter 'handles' it employs for international consumption) for honesty or integrity. That kind of power is a tough nut to crack, considering how many other govts and international organizations kowtow to them regardless of the previous facts.


----------



## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

High/Deaf said:


> But how else do you protest a totalitarian govt that kills dissenters with no recourse or public outcry from the rest of the world? Really, ask that guy who stood in front of the tank 30 years ago how that worked out for him? Or the first guy writing an email to his friends about the virus?
> 
> You are right, you need to always understand the source. But I wouldn't look to the CCP and it's media, producing internal and external propaganda (including the >70,000 twitter 'handles' it employs for international consumption) for honesty or integrity. That kind of power is a tough nut to crack, considering how many other govts and international organizations kowtow to them regardless of the previous facts.


If I hated the oil industry, my agenda was to create opposition to the industry and I reported on everything in the most negative way possible, how seriously could you take anything I wrote about it?


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

_Azrael said:


> If I hated the oil industry, my agenda was to create opposition to the industry and I reported on everything in the most negative way possible, how seriously could you take anything I wrote about it?


People protest the oil industry all the time. Where were you in January? 

You give them the credibility you want, based on many things. A guy out here on the radio all the time wants to stop pipelines because of COVID (complete non-sequitor) but the radio station still gives him a voice. Some people buy his argument, some don't. 

But the oil industry, at least in the west, tends to NOT disappear people who make such public protests. You are taking your life in your hands protesting the CCP. Especially inside China but also outside it's borders. So I think the comparison fails at a few different levels. 

Again, how would you protest the CCP? The FG is certainly biased with it's own agenda but does that mean everything they say should be disregarded? Certainly, the CCP has it's own agenda and bias, you must agree.


----------



## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

KapnKrunch said:


> I don't read or watch hews.
> 
> However. An article in the Star got my attention in recent years. It was about the dangers of the oilfield. The article centred around my neighbourhood. I know the people interviewed. I live beside the facility. I did some welding there for a couple of days. You can believe the Star or you can believe me. The "facts" in the story were contrived to alarm the reader. The story was complete bullshit.
> 
> I don't read or watch the news.


I’ve read enough articles about events I’ve been part of to determine that the media typically misses the mark.

Most of the time it’s oversimplified. Kind of like parents try to oversimplify the answer to the question, “Where do babies come from? They’re not really trying to create a misinformed worldview within their 5 year old, but in trying to explain it at a level that a 5 year old understands they omit enough information that they’ve basically created a lie.

The only news organization that’s outright lied about events I’ve been apart of is The Rebel. In their case they published documents that were clearly fake (fake letterhead, incorrect formatting, failure to use army lingo, claiming I’d been ordered to vacate my house when I hadn’t) in articles that were meant to stir up opposition to immigrants/refugees. Since then I’ve written them off as fake news.


----------



## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

High/Deaf said:


> People protest the oil industry all the time. Where were you in January?
> 
> You give them the credibility you want, based on many things. A guy out here on the radio all the time wants to stop pipelines because of COVID (complete non-sequitor) but the radio station still gives him a voice. Some people buy his argument, some don't.
> 
> ...


I think you and I are arguing two different things. You’re basically reinforcing my point.

I’m saying they have an agenda and readers need to be sceptical.

I think you’re saying they have an agenda but we shouldn’t be completely dismissive.

How about we meet in the middle and say readers should be sceptical but not completely dismissive?


----------



## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

_Azrael said:


> Most of the time it’s oversimplified. Kind of like parents try to oversimplify the answer to the question, “Where do babies come from? They’re not really trying to create a misinformed worldview within their 5 year old, but in trying to explain it at a level that a 5 year old understands they omit enough information that they’ve basically created a lie.


A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand. _Bertrand Russell (1872 - 1970)_


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Sorta like 'Jesus walked on water', but the news headline is 'Jesus can't swim".


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

_Azrael said:


> I think you and I are arguing two different things. You’re basically reinforcing my point.
> 
> I’m saying they have an agenda and readers need to be sceptical.
> 
> ...


I agree with that. All media needs to be questioned for it's accuracy. 

But I don't agree that the FG can be simply labeled as an anti-China propaganda machine. While I don't agree with everything they produce, I think they bring some valid criticisms to people's attention. 

And considering the might, breadth and ruthlessness of the communist party they are criticizing, perhaps we need to allow them a little more leeway than protestors operating in our democratic world, who are given all the space and time they want, as long as they have an audience willing to listen to them. As I mentioned with the anti-pipeline guy on the radio here, the station knows his bias, everyone does now, but they still allow him the platform to present it over and over.


----------



## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

High/Deaf said:


> I agree with that. All media needs to be questioned for it's accuracy.
> 
> But I don't agree that the FG can be simply labeled as an anti-China propaganda machine. While I don't agree with everything they produce, I think they bring some valid criticisms to people's attention.
> 
> And considering the might, breadth and ruthlessness of the communist party they are criticizing, perhaps we need to allow them a little more leeway than protestors operating in our democratic world, who are given all the space and time they want, as long as they have an audience willing to listen to them. As I mentioned with the anti-pipeline guy on the radio here, the station knows his bias, everyone does now, but they still allow him the platform to present it over and over.


Generally agree, but I feel it’s safe to label the Epoch Times as anti-China propaganda because it brings attention to their bias. Much the same as I think it’s safe to label CNN as anti-Trump and Fox as pro-Trump.


----------



## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

_Azrael said:


> Generally agree, but I feel it’s safe to label the Epoch Times as anti-China propaganda because it brings attention to their bias


They themselves state that they're 'anti - CCP (China Communist Party)', not anti-chinese.

CBC Admits Mistakes in Reporting of Epoch Times Coverage of Beijing’s Virus Coverup

CBC's EDITOR's NOTE_: This story has been changed from the original version. The headline on the story when it was first published cited a quote from a recipient of the Epoch Times special issue who felt some of its content was "racist and inflammatory." The headline has been changed and additions have been made to the article to clarify that CBC had originally heard from multiple sources who received the mailing and were upset by the content. The earlier headline also incorrectly stated the Epoch Times claimed China made the virus as a bioweapon. A commentary in the paper did ask the question "is the novel coronavirus outbreak in Wuhan an accident occasioned by weaponizing the virus at that [Wuhan P4 virology] lab."_

_*Clarifications*

While The Epoch Times was previously available for free — and is sometimes still distributed for free, as Canadians across the country have reported — it says it has moved to a subscription model in Canada. The paper was available in Epoch Times boxes until at least last August in Canada. In the U.S., the paper is still available to purchase through newspaper boxes.
Apr 29, 2020 3:55 PM ET
*Corrections*

A previous version of this story incorrectly stated the Shen Yun dance troupe was part of the Epoch Media Group.
Apr 29, 2020 5:54 PM ET
_How CBC Failed Its Own Journalistic Standards in Its Coverage of The Epoch Times

_The CBC’s coverage drew rebuke from a number of journalists, and was the subject of a commentary published on the front page of the National Post on Sat., May 2. *_(Also in the Toronto Sun.)

*Original Version*
_‘Racist and inflammatory’: Canadians upset by Epoch Times claim China behind virus, made it as a bioweapon_

*Second Version*
_Some Canadians who received unsolicited copy of Epoch Times upset by claim that China was behind virus_

*Third Version*
_Some Canadians see claims in Epoch Times about origin of virus as ‘racist and inflammatory’_

*Fourth Version*
_Some Canadians who received unsolicited copy of Epoch Times upset by claim that China was behind virus_


----------



## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

_Azrael said:


> I’ve read enough articles about events I’ve been part of to determine that the media typically misses the mark.
> 
> Most of the time it’s oversimplified. Kind of like parents try to oversimplify the answer to the question, “Where do babies come from? They’re not really trying to create a misinformed worldview within their 5 year old, but in trying to explain it at a level that a 5 year old understands they omit enough information that they’ve basically created a lie.
> 
> The only news organization that’s outright lied about events I’ve been apart of is The Rebel. In their case they published documents that were clearly fake (fake letterhead, incorrect formatting, failure to use army lingo, claiming I’d been ordered to vacate my house when I hadn’t) in articles that were meant to stir up opposition to immigrants/refugees. Since then I’ve written them off as fake news.


I don't even listen to the local weather.

Bullshit is bullshit whether it's intentional or not. 

The radio announced that the town of Vanscoy was being evacuated for flooding. I phoned my friend there immediately: 

"Pete what's going on up there? I heard you're getting evacuated. There's a flood coming!"

"I haven't heard anything," he replied, "It's not even raining." 

I don't even listen to the local weather.


----------



## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

High/Deaf said:


> You are right, you need to always understand the source. But I wouldn't look to the CCP and it's media, producing internal and external propaganda (including the >70,000 twitter 'handles' it employs for international consumption) for honesty or integrity. That kind of power is a tough nut to crack, considering how many other govts and international organizations kowtow to them regardless of the previous facts.


I'd go further, and say that just whiffing off reports because those producing them might have an interest - a well-known and open interest - in exposing the Chinese government for what it is is a form of propaganda itself.

Once upon a time, pretty much everyone in democratic countries valued what they had and decried and distrusted communist governments antipodal to theirs, much as the Epoch Times has been doing for a decade. Now, as it releases a coherent story suggesting that Covid-19 may have started its global catastrophe as an accidental release from a Chinese government lab, some people are more ready to believe the Chinese government's whitewash of the event.

Incredible given that the Chinese government has a rich 70-year history - including Covid-19-related history - of suppressing truth, eliminating critics, and fabricating stories to meet its ends. Dismissing free-thinking people who counter it as (I presume @_Azrael means) dishonest propagandists leads to wonder about how far Chinese government propaganda has reached and how much it has influenced education and media.


----------



## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

boyscout said:


> I'd go further, and say that just whiffing off reports because those producing them might have an interest - a well-known and open interest - in exposing the Chinese government for what it is is a form of propaganda itself.
> 
> Once upon a time, pretty much everyone in democratic countries valued what they had and decried and distrusted communist governments antipodal to theirs, much as the Epoch Times has been doing for a decade. Now, as it releases a coherent story suggesting that Covid-19 may have started its global catastrophe as an accidental release from a Chinese government lab, some people are more ready to believe the Chinese government's whitewash of the event.
> 
> Incredible given that the Chinese government has a rich 70-year history - including Covid-19-related history - of suppressing truth, eliminating critics, and fabricating stories to meet its ends. Dismissing free-thinking people who counter it as (I presume @_Azrael means) dishonest propagandists leads to wonder about how far Chinese government propaganda has reached and how much it has influenced education and media.


Thanks for a good example of how to apply spin.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

_Azrael said:


> Can I have a pair of those rose coloured glasses?


Won't do you much good if you already can't see things.


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

boyscout said:


> Won't do you much good if you already can't see things.


I feel like I get under your skin and you take this a little more personally than everyone else.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

boyscout said:


> how far Chinese government propaganda has reached and how much it has influenced education and media


An example

World marks 30 years since Tiananmen massacre as China censors all mention


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

_Azrael said:


> The only news organization that’s outright lied about events I’ve been apart of is The Rebel. In their case they published documents that were clearly fake (fake letterhead, incorrect formatting, failure to use army lingo, claiming I’d been ordered to vacate my house when I hadn’t) in articles that were meant to stir up opposition to immigrants/refugees. Since then I’ve written them off as fake news.


I've seen a few outright lie, twist, obfuscate - you know, whatever it takes to get their highly biased POV across to manipulate the general public (so nothing to do with 'informing'). 

Here's just one example:



laristotle said:


> They themselves state that they're 'anti - CCP (China Communist Party)', not anti-chinese.
> 
> CBC Admits Mistakes in Reporting of Epoch Times Coverage of Beijing’s Virus Coverup
> 
> ...


I wouldn't care so much - lots of media arms do this - except that I have to fund the bullshit. That pisses me off.


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