# 'Nother email for Wild Bill help with Traynor



## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Here's another one:

*"Hey Wild Bill, I'm thinking you can help me.

I've been scouring the net and joining different groups just to apply for some knowledge. I have a '69 or so Bass Mate, with 15" spk and Bass and Treble controls. And 6v6s.

I want to tie the other half of V1 into the circuit. I read somewhere tonight that I can use the YGM-2 circuit for V1?

I'm not sure how to tie it into the circuit at that point.

I'm not a stranger to amp work; I just finished a Metroamp kit. Although that doesn't teach you theory!

The amp is just sitting here ready to be improved. I just want a bit more power and I want to tweak the tone section for more mids. I have the schem; I also need to know if R5 or R7 is the slope resistor.

Sorry about the overload, I couldn't start a new post as I'm new here.

I appreciate any info you can pass along."*

I hate to disappoint but this is when I just can't help as much as I'd like!

The problem is that you're asking me to do some research for you. I know I've got a lot of people fooled into thinking I have every amp schematic in my head but believe it or not usually I have to look things up!:smile:

I love helping but once it becomes more than just passing along some tips I have a conflict with time spent on my full-time job, which is running my service business.

You're asking me for design help with tying in that unused half of a 12AX7. I CAN tell you that although you will get more gain you will NOT get more power! That's because your power is set by the output tubes, those 6V6's. They run at a certain plate voltage and current to push power into the output transformer. More gain will sound a bit louder when you dime it into distortion but that's it.

However, all is not lost! This is a perfect example of why I no longer answer such questions on private email. By posting them here on the board people all over the world can see them and with such a huge pool of talent the odds are someone else who likely HAS the time will chip in and help!

We've been building up a great pool of techies here at GC and I'm sure some of them will help out!

:food-smiley-004:


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## JDW3 (Sep 23, 2009)

I can appreciate that! I'll keep looking around. This looks like a great forum!


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## JDW3 (Sep 23, 2009)

http://rawsoulfolk.com/images/YBA-2A/Input-Jack-to-V1A-Web-TEXT.jpg



This is the exact preamp I have. I'm trying to power up pins 1,2 and 3. So, maybe tweed Deluxe values? It may not matter what values, but at that point I'm wondering how it ties into the circuit. Obviously it's tied in now, but after altering it I didn't know if anything else needed to be changed further down the line.

I'm used to working with marshall type circuits and layouts. Traynor YBA-1, Marshall 1987, etc...

So this layout has me a bit confused.


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## JDW3 (Sep 23, 2009)

I keep coming back to the same problem; all the schems I'm looking at have 2 volume pots, such as tweed 5E3 Deluxe. Both sides of the tube use nearly identical values, but end at a volume pot each.

Is this as simple as paralleling the 2 sides of the tube? I would've thought this would require another 100K plate resistor.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

JDW3 said:


> I keep coming back to the same problem; all the schems I'm looking at have 2 volume pots, such as tweed 5E3 Deluxe. Both sides of the tube use nearly identical values, but end at a volume pot each.
> 
> Is this as simple as paralleling the 2 sides of the tube? I would've thought this would require another 100K plate resistor.


You did initially say that you wanted to use the stage for some more gain. It sounds like you are looking at classic schematics where gain had not yet become popular.

The gain revolution started in the late 70's and early 80's. You might want to go to www.blueguitar.org and poke around for some "TrainWreck" schematics. 

Paralleling two sides of a tube will not give more gain. It will change the tone and some designs have done this but not gain. You would also have to drop that 100K plate resistor value in half, down to 47K.

'Blue Guitar' is a great site! At this stage in learning tube amps I suggest you do a lot of googling and read, read, read! An hour with a good book can save you DAYS of re-wiring and cursing!:smile:

:food-smiley-004:


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## JDW3 (Sep 23, 2009)

Wild Bill said:


> You did initially say that you wanted to use the stage for some more gain. It sounds like you are looking at classic schematics where gain had not yet become popular.
> 
> The gain revolution started in the late 70's and early 80's. You might want to go to www.blueguitar.org and poke around for some "TrainWreck" schematics.
> 
> ...



I don't really need more gain, maybe just more power. Just a slight boost either way and the knowledge that I actually used the other half of the tube!

Looking at the 5E3 layout, it appears simple, but I don't have the volume pot for V1B to run to. There are a lot of similarities between the YBA-2 and the 5E3.

So, if I can't use the V1 setup like the tweed, guess I'll have to keep looking. Maybe add another volume pot? haha


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

JDW3 said:


> I don't really need more gain, maybe just more power. Just a slight boost either way and the knowledge that I actually used the other half of the tube!


Well, you can't really get more power! More gain will give you 'crunch' and that might sound louder but the power your amp can deliver comes from its output tubes. They already have the maximum voltage they can be run on happening. If you want more power then you would need to change to more powerful tubes, like 6L6's.

However, then the power transformer would no longer be big enough to supply the increased current demand. And the output transformer wouldn't be tough enough to handle the increased output power. So you'd have to change them too!

It's like putting a big block V8 in a Chevette to try to make it into a muscle car. By the time you tend to all the other details necessary to make the package work it would have been cheaper to have bought a muscle car.

About the only thing I can think of to give you a louder sound is to replace the speaker. The efficiency of those old Marsland speakers is pretty poor compared to today's speakers. A change to a modern speaker will make the amp a LOT louder!

You didn't say if you are using the amp for Bass guitar or not. That would determine the type of speaker you should try. Eminence or Weber have some good choices in 15". Look for an 'SPL' or 'sensitivity' rating of 98 db or better. This is an indication of how efficiently the speaker will convert electrical watts into acoustical watts.

:food-smiley-004:


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## JDW3 (Sep 23, 2009)

It appears maybe it's not the best idea to mess with rewiring V1. I'm using the amp for guitar. So, I'll concentrate on altering the tonestack to more guitar friendly values. That's why I was looking at the 5E3. 

If I can get a little more gain by paralleling the triodes, I may try it. 

I have a Weber Cali 15" speaker in it. it sounds pretty good.


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

Thanks for the P.M. 

I have this exact amp... with a slight mod LOL 

I'm no where near as experienced as good folks like Wild Bill and want to say up front I'm not a tech ! 

The Knowledge you seek is out there: 
the net is an awesome thing, like the greatest reference library ever created 
and its almost free! 

Go Here for some great stuff 

http://www.aikenamps.com/TechInfo.htm

also here 

http://www.schematicheaven.com/

People like Kevin O'Connor, Dave Funk even Dan Torres and Gerald Weber have written books full of great Ideas and sometimes bad weird ideas 

Check all this stuff out then form your own ideas and opinions. 

Comb through the Marshall schematics comparing a jtm45, 5f6a bassman, and 1987 lead amp... to see how a circuit can be modded yet stay true to its roots. If you understand this circuit and all its evolutionary cousins you will have tons of great ideas. 

Most amp mods are not very cool, in the 80's 90's, a lot of great amps were treated like an 18 year old treats a honda civic. Useless Wing, Body kit, noisy stereo, juice can muffler.... all tasteless and useless but widely copied as the "cool thing to do" 

If you tweak an old amp, it should be like preparing a sports car for track day, you do the bare minimum of things required to make it slightly faster, safer and more reliable. 

Further keep in mind that an amp's power supply is just like a taser, or electric cattle prod, touch the wrong part and you are getting a shock, dropping the amp or stopping your heart. 


Ok about the 6v6 bassmate ...
Great amp fairly low gain 

to dial in any tube amp for guitar you probably want to do the following 

tailor the eq and bandwidth to the guitars frequencies 
adjust the gain so the amp is touch sensitive 

as Dave Funk says "to make it louder, make it brighter" 

you amp is the second schematic in this set

if you look at the first tube it has 
an input pin 7
an output & shared power supply pin 6 
and a cathode biasing link to ground pin 8 

A.
following the output pin 6 line we see the coupling cap c2 .05 400 volts 
and r8 (9 or 6?) 100k 

C2 sets the bandwidth of the stage with .05 being pretty bassy 
.02 might make the amp brighter 

B.
r8 links to the power supply, but also helps "steer" the signal toward 
c2 making r8 220k will increase the output of the tube 

(brighter louder) 

C.
following the signal flow along we come to the tone stack, basically a hot rodded version of the tweed single tone control 

r5 is what is called the slope resistor, it sets the "angle" or distance between treble and bass, 220k is a very high value !! making the sweep of the controls extreme .... 

take the 100k resistor you removed r8 and use it for r5 in fact just swap them 100k is a more fender oriented value giving a more familiar tone sweep

D.
I would go as far as 33k for R5 if you like lots of mids this is what marshall did to the tone stack in the superlead amp

following the circuit along we come to the volume control and this feeds directly into the inverter.... this is a great sounding power amp, running open loop with no negative feedback ... it needs no adjustments and sounds GREAT 

If you need still more gain 
you can look at pin 8 the cathode of v1 
lowering the resistor to 1 k or 820 will heat things up 

if you need a little more r 7 is the preset mid control in the tone stack 100k is pretty huge for mids, you can probably go to 200k but people who like cleaner sounds might reduce this to a more fender oriented 10k value 

Obviously if we use every Idea here we've redone the entire pre amp 
and another design might be preferable ... 

I think these amps sound great and don't need a complete rebuild 

Just do a.b.c.d.
and stop and play at each step 
when you like what you hear STOP
or go back one step if it's too much 

hope this helps 

this is what a bassmate head 2 6v6 with this mod sounds like

I did this mod for this guy's amp 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoPIil9VkXc

p


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

Imagine that parkhead did mods to my first bassmate in 1995 for a 12 of moosehead! 

I'm going to do similar stuff to mine. I just want to find good el84s. 

I've also started playing with a 1x12 celestion extension speaker that's in a slant monitor cabinet. Makes a great difference. 

All in all good advice!


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

I think I got a Bassmaster for a case of 50 once.

I still have the bassmaster but I'm sure the "50" is long gone 


p


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## JDW3 (Sep 23, 2009)

parkhead said:


> Thanks for the P.M.
> 
> if you look at the first tube it has
> an input pin 7
> ...




When you mention A. pin 7 to C2, I 'think" you mean pin 6! Otherwise, I get what you mean. Those are just what I was looking for. And it clears up what isn't obvious as far as Traynor layouts go. I had a heck of a time trying to figure out my YSR-1 tonestack. But thats another story...

And I suppose this ends my "rewiring V1" adventure. 

After listening to the clip, I don't think I even need that much gain from this amp. 

So, it is basically true that unless you have 2 volume controls, you are cascading a 12ax7 or paralleling it? This is one thing I'd like to know.

And yes, I will do some reading. 

Thanks, guys.


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

ooops pin 6 you are correct 

the amp does not have that much Gain 

there's a clean boost in front of the amp for that solo.

the amp is tweaked for best tone and eq at all volume settings 
that way it sounds great with any kind of drive pedal 

its not about Gain ! 

here's another example 

the amp is a stock fender deville 

the Ts-9 in use has been subtly changed, it does not have extra gain 

it has a greater range of touch ....

the principle is like leverage... if you put the stick and a rock in the right place 

you can move a giant boulder with a small amount of force 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JObUsUZdK84



p


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## JDW3 (Sep 23, 2009)

parkhead said:


> ooops pin 6 you are correct
> 
> the amp does not have that much Gain
> 
> ...



Before I forget, what about changing the PI values in this 6v6 circuit? Mine are 220K, 220K and 27K. Is there anything to be "gained" from changing the 220ks to 470k for example? Or even 1M?


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

nope 

its already a great power amp 


p


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## JDW3 (Sep 23, 2009)

parkhead said:


> the amp is a stock fender deville
> 
> the Ts-9 in use has been subtly changed, it does not have extra gain
> 
> ...




Wow, that sounds killer! That is a great sounding setup. And she is so easy to watch!

Thanks again for bringing this info forward!


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

JDW3 said:


> Before I forget, what about changing the PI values in this 6v6 circuit? Mine are 220K, 220K and 27K. Is there anything to be "gained" from changing the 220ks to 470k for example? Or even 1M?


Go here:

http://www.aikenamps.com

Great techie site! There are two tech FAQs dealing with PIs. EVERYTHING you could want to know!

:food-smiley-004:


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## JDW3 (Sep 23, 2009)

Wild Bill said:


> Go here:
> 
> http://www.aikenamps.com
> 
> ...


Awesome. Great info!


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## JDW3 (Sep 23, 2009)

parkhead said:


> Thanks for the P.M.
> 
> if you need a little more r 7 is the preset mid control in the tone stack 100k is pretty huge for mids, you can probably go to 200k but people who like cleaner sounds might reduce this to a more fender oriented 10k value



Hey Parkhead! I did a few of those mods and it really is starting to come to life! The bottoms still a little tubby. 

My question is; for more mids from the preset R7, should I go up in value? Increase 100K to 150K? I remember a buddies Fender Deluxe Reverb had a 10k in place of a 6800 ohm, for more mids. So I was thinking I had to go down. 

I left the 100k for the plate. I decreased C/R 4 to 820 ohms from 1500. And added a new Sprague atom 25/25 while I was in there. Brought the volume and clarity up nicely.

I swapped C2 for a Sozo .02 I had laying around. Cut a lot of bass out. Almost there. 

I swapped the 220K slope resistor for a 100k. At this point, the bass pot is increasing the gain in a large way. I want to have the mids preset so I don't have to crank the bass for more gain. 

I'm sure this is just the way the tone stack is set up in a Traynor. My old YGM-3 had zero volume when all eq was on 0. I know this is slightly different.

So basically, I still want to tighten up the bass, if possible. I already had replaced the .47 output coupling caps with .02 Orange Drops. 

Should I lower the slope resistor (R5) or adjust the preset (R7)? Not sure whether to increase or decrease R7.


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

Really busy right now 

ok sounds great so far ....

stare at the tone stack schematic for a while and see what you want to try 

the treble control is a mixer, and the bass control and caps control how much mid and bottom grounds out, as well as feeding the bass side of the treble control...

lets see what you can come up with ....


hint c4 and c5 

control the bass and mids 
if you make the caps larger more bass will exit out of the Bottom of the tone stack 
while lowering the pass frequency of the network 

if you look at a fender twin with its .047 an .1 mid and bass caps 
it has a lot of loose bottom end and clean Mids 

a marshall with its .02 and .02 has a more agressive mid shape 
with a higer bottom frequency cut off giving a bigger mid bottom hump 

go here and get the tone stack calculator and do some playing with values 

http://www.duncanamps.com/tsc/index.html

this won't give you the answers but you will see whats going on 

p


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## JDW3 (Sep 23, 2009)

parkhead said:


> Really busy right now
> 
> ok sounds great so far ....
> 
> ...





I didn't read your edit until just now, but I did bump the slope down to 47K. I then increased the mid preset from 100K stock to 150K.

I tried to disconnect the first cap (C 3) on the board. It somehow eliminated the use of the bass pot. Not sure why. I put it back. I'll check out the tonestack calculator. 

To be honest, it sounds pretty damn good right now! Much louder and more grindy. I need to eliminate some more loose bass if possible after doing some calculations.

That reminds me, I did replace C4 with a .02 instead of a .01uf awhile back. It's somehow really spiky with a single coil, but fine with humbuckers. So, more experimenting!


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## JDW3 (Sep 23, 2009)

Unfortunately I can't use the tonestack calculator because I have a mac. Any options for this? I kinda new to the mac.


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

if you are really close to what you want go back to the first interstage cap, 
I think you said you tried .02, .01 will bring the bottom up a little...

keep in mind if you change the 100k plate load to 220k you put some bottom back in... if you go to 220k you might want to have .0047 and .0022 caps on hand to try 

I'd pretty much dial in that front end and get back to playing.

Lastly don't forget to try it in a Jam situation... 

p


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## JDW3 (Sep 23, 2009)

parkhead said:


> if you are really close to what you want go back to the first interstage cap,
> I think you said you tried .02, .01 will bring the bottom up a little...
> 
> keep in mind if you change the 100k plate load to 220k you put some bottom back in... if you go to 220k you might want to have .0047 and .0022 caps on hand to try
> ...



This was in the Q&A on Aikens site:

Q: Can I change the preamp cathode or plate resistors to change the gain or tone of my amp? 
A: Yes, but you should change the plate resistor value when you change the cathode resistor value, in order to compensate the quiescent plate voltage shift, to rebias the tube near the center of the plate voltage swing, or to the place it was originally biased. If you don't change the plate resistor, the change in the static DC bias point may cause the tube to clip very asymmetrically, and the headroom will be lower, which may or may not be a good thing, depending on your needs. The two go hand-in-hand. If you change the cathode resistor, the plate resistor should (ideally) be changed, and if you change the plate resistor, the cathode resistor should be changed, unless you are designing for an asymmetric bias point. At any rate, it is always a good idea to check the operating conditions of the tube circuit on a scope to make sure things aren't getting out of hand. People tend to view preamp tubes differently from power tubes, but in reality, they are the same animal, just on a different scale. Preamp tubes need to be biased, just as power amp tubes do, and there are ranges that are more optimum than others. This is why it is not a fair test to just swap different tube types and compare tones. A 12AX7 will require different plate and cathode resistors than a 12AT7, for instance, for optimum bias point and tone.


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

JDW3 said:


> This was in the Q&A on Aikens site:
> 
> Q: Can I change the preamp cathode or plate resistors to change the gain or tone of my amp?
> A: Yes, but you should change the plate resistor value when you change the cathode resistor value, in order to compensate the quiescent plate voltage shift, to rebias the tube near the center of the plate voltage swing, or to the place it was originally biased. If you don't change the plate resistor, the change in the static DC bias point may cause the tube to clip very asymmetrically, and the headroom will be lower, which may or may not be a good thing, depending on your needs. The two go hand-in-hand. If you change the cathode resistor, the plate resistor should (ideally) be changed, and if you change the plate resistor, the cathode resistor should be changed, unless you are designing for an asymmetric bias point. At any rate, it is always a good idea to check the operating conditions of the tube circuit on a scope to make sure things aren't getting out of hand. People tend to view preamp tubes differently from power tubes, but in reality, they are the same animal, just on a different scale. Preamp tubes need to be biased, just as power amp tubes do, and there are ranges that are more optimum than others. This is why it is not a fair test to just swap different tube types and compare tones. A 12AX7 will require different plate and cathode resistors than a 12AT7, for instance, for optimum bias point and tone.


There are hundreds of examples of classic designs with lots of different cathode arranagements and a standard 100k plate load resistor. 

Notably Mike Soldano and Peter Traynor seem to be two of the few 
designers who got the memo ....

Leo was out at a bar checking out a western swing band, and Jim was chasing the Birds and drinking Single Malt. 

in other words use your ears, the stuff Pete Traynor changed in the classic "western electric" circuit is the stuff the Math and engineering told him to .... Meanwhile clearly Marshall didn't start doing much engineering till 1982 

The stuff CBS changed in the Fender amps was the stuff the CBS engineers said Leo got wrong 



p


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

parkhead said:


> Notably Mike Soldano and Peter Traynor seem to be two of the few
> designers who got the memo ....
> 
> in other words use your ears, the stuff Pete Traynor changed in the classic "western electric" circuit is the stuff the Math and engineering told him to .... Meanwhile clearly Marshall didn't start doing much engineering till 1982
> ...


Well, if you look at all those SilverFace CBS circuit changes it sure looks like CBS hired their new engineers by their hifi or audiophile experience! All the changes seem to me to be standard 'make the record sound more like a real concert' type of stuff!

Totally wrong for an electric guitar, of course. As I love to say, an electric guitar amp is SUPPOSED to have distortion! It's the type of distortion that gives each amp its individual character. You will never sound like Eddie Van Halen playing through a Harmon Kardon Citation II tube amp.

It's a pity that Mike Soldano and Pete Traynor never seemed to get as much fame and of course, renumeration as they deserved. I've met Pete and his lovely wife Suzanne. Very nice people. I was saddened when I learned that he has been fighting severe pain due to a bad back since 1978!

As for Mr. Soldano, have you ever compared the crunch preamp of a Booger to the SLO-100? Perhaps Mike should have sued them but I guess Booger had more money for lawyers. I keep telling guys that if you want that crunch it's more cost-effective to pick up a used Soldano...

:food-smiley-004:


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## bobb (Jan 4, 2007)

Wild Bill said:


> Well, if you look at all those SilverFace CBS circuit changes it sure looks like CBS hired their new engineers by their hifi or audiophile experience! All the changes seem to me to be standard 'make the record sound more like a real concert' type of stuff!


As funny as it sounds, you hit the nail on the head. When the CBS engineers took over, their number one project was to get rid of all that nasty distortion. As for their success, just look at the line of Fender SS amps that they created...if you can still find any. :smile:


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## JDW3 (Sep 23, 2009)

JDW3 said:


> This was in the Q&A on Aikens site:
> The two go hand-in-hand. If you change the cathode resistor, the plate resistor should (ideally) be changed, and if you change the plate resistor, the cathode resistor should be changed, unless you are designing for an asymmetric bias point. A 12AX7 will require different plate and cathode resistors than a 12AT7, for instance, for optimum bias point and tone.




I just changed my cathode resistor to 820 ohms from 1500 ohms. With reference to the above, should the plate resistor be increased, or decreased?

Anyone know the formula? 

Maybe I will try the 150 or 220K just to see.


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

if you want more gain go to 220k

p


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## I_cant_play (Jun 26, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> As for Mr. Soldano, have you ever compared the crunch preamp of a Booger to the SLO-100? Perhaps Mike should have sued them but I guess Booger had more money for lawyers. I keep telling guys that if you want that crunch it's more cost-effective to pick up a used Soldano...
> 
> :food-smiley-004:


How is this possible if the Mark I was released in the early 70s and the SLO in late 80s? Or are you talking about a different boogie... I'm an amp newb I'm just curious.


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

I_cant_play said:


> How is this possible if the Mark I was released in the early 70s and the SLO in late 80s? Or are you talking about a different boogie... I'm an amp newb I'm just curious.



the dual rectifier and more recent boogies are based on the Soldano concepts 
of multiple gain stages 

The Mark 1 is a twin with an extra gain stage stuck in a tiny box 


p


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## I_cant_play (Jun 26, 2006)

cool. Thanks for clarifying :smile:


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## JDW3 (Sep 23, 2009)

parkhead said:


> if you want more gain go to 220k
> 
> p


I did try the 220K. It was too much for me. I have a 150K in there now and it really tightened it up. I just gigged with a '66 Deluxe Reverb and so I keep referencing that tone in my head. I need to think tweed, probably!

I returned the cap on the pots back to stock value. (.022 back to .01)

I thought about experimenting with the .47 but I'm running short of spare parts. 

I may try some different Orange Drops in the output coupling caps. Mine are a little hifi sounding.


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