# how are you doing in this economy?



## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

I am still doing OK, and I have been repositioning myself financially for a while now (I dodged the crash of 08), I think it is going to get much worse in spite of what many in the media are saying about 'green shoots', 'recovery', 'the worst is over' etc. 

the massive debts of governments with their stimulus packages have kept the economies of some areas artificially afloat and this money printing frenzy is going to come home to roost in the next year or two along with some other bubbles that are still going to pop (credit card debt, bank failures in the US, commercial real estate bubble, etc). 

that is my take. 

how are you making out and what do you see coming in the near future?


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

Luckily, I suffered minimal damage from the crash of '08. My kids were at "that expensive age" in the 00s so instead of socking away money in investments and RRSPs we paid for babysitters, nannies and day/summer camps. We had some modest investments which took a hit but we weren't that exposed. 

Thanks to the BC real estate market and the willingness of my bank to almost give away money, I took a much more aggressive approach after the first big drop in 08 and the second drop March 09. My returns in the past year have eclipsed the value of our previous investments. I made a 45% return last year and have engaged in a lot of profit taking as opposed to setting in for the long haul. I was no mastermind, I just chose stocks that I was familiar with and that I felt had a good chance of rebounding. I threw a lot of cash in the market and hoped for the best. And the best happened. 

Right now I am still fully invested despite the effects of Obama's last comments. I'm hoping the market will shrug the comments off next week and things will rebound a little. I plan to be out of the market by March and will sit on the sidelines to see what happens. I will take advantage when I can.

I am not confident that this artificial market will last much longer. I agree with OP that the stimulus packages have helped to keep our economies artificially afloat but I feel that that there will be a few more bursting bubbles. I am not a professional money manager nor do I work in that field so I can only regurgitate the opinions those "in the know" that I've read this past year. I can't predict the future but when everyone starts thinking "this can't possibly last", then were in for a tumble. And from the look of things, what a tumble it will be...

My 2 cents


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Doing fine, though I'll probably slow my plan to raise my rates by delaying increases until things stabilize. My schedule is just as full as usual so I'm happy. My family is happy and healthy, and that matters more and most.

Depending on how the local economy survives the closing of Volvo (Champion) road machinery, I'll adapt.

Peace, Mooh.


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## six-string (Oct 7, 2009)

personally, like a lot of folks, i lost a few bucks in my RRSPs and stuff. but for the most part i have not been negatively impacted by the economy. i do not carry debt as i pay off credit cards every month. my job is far more secure than most and i live within my means. but i do know a lot of folks who have not been so lucky.

i am inclined to agree with you that any recovery is going to be slow in coming. or at least trickling down to the average working stiff. one thing that i think is important is taking care of yourself and those around you. family, friends, neighbours etc. it is especially important in difficult times. but i know it is well worth it, since if you do right by others, they will usually do right by you. of course i'm not just talking about money or the economy here, it goes deeper. we are living in a time of high-speed change, and that breeds great insecurity in many facets of everyone's lives. we can't always control the chaos of the world around us, but if we take responsibility for ourselves, then we can begin to wrestle some control over the important things in our lives anyway.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

since i can remember, ive always had work, if i wanted it.
at my present job, things are getting thin, layed off most of the guys- but ill be the last to go. if we go bankrupt ill be the guy who locks the doors when we leave lol.
were looking into a workshare program now, as id be happy to cut down my hours- i literally can survive fine on $200 a week if need be, i despise working every day lol, and ive always got opportunities for side work.
i started working in 1987- so how many recessions is that now?
i was brought up in a manufacturing environment, dad owned a machine shop producing small parts for various things- he was forced to close in 1990, after 25 years.
i learned a lot of skills, and was able to use them, pretty much untill about 8 years ago- but i was always going from one shrinking company to the next- kinda sad. but i became extremely used to the non-permanence of any given employment.
obviously, ive got no pension plan, or rrsps. and these days i make about the same money per day as i did 15 years ago-
but my needs are different from those of most other folks- if ive got a place to live, beer in the fridge, food to eat and a couple unopened packs of guitar strings, im styling- and a lifestyle like that is always easy to maintain.


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

I choose to remain optimistic. For the time being, I have a 40 hour per week job. I am also learning a trade as an unpaid apprentice evenings and weekends. My glass of water will always be half full. Each day I am grateful for all of the good things in my life.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

> I am also learning a trade as an unpaid apprentice evenings and weekends


what are you learning robert?


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

I'm employed but many around me are not. 3 out of 5 in band are not working. Were in tech. 

I'm not one of the ones that believes semiconductors will recover this year. I think it'll be a rough year. Stimulus is done. Relations with China are getting strained. I'll be happy if it's only down 5-10% y-o-y come December 2010 in my industry.

I stopped looking at my rrsp years ago. It just made me cry every time I did....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I work for a non-profit charitable transfer payment agency in Ontari-ari-ari-o. It just keeps going - no raises - but it keeps going. We could get screwed a bit if there is a change in government, but that is a few years away. I'll be retiring in five years, four months and eight days.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

six-string said:


> personally, like a lot of folks, i lost a few bucks in my RRSPs and stuff. but for the most part i have not been negatively impacted by the economy. i do not carry debt as i pay off credit cards every month. my job is far more secure than most and i live within my means. but i do know a lot of folks who have not been so lucky.
> 
> i am inclined to agree with you that any recovery is going to be slow in coming. or at least trickling down to the average working stiff. one thing that i think is important is taking care of yourself and those around you. family, friends, neighbours etc. it is especially important in difficult times. but i know it is well worth it, since if you do right by others, they will usually do right by you. of course i'm not just talking about money or the economy here, it goes deeper. we are living in a time of high-speed change, and that breeds great insecurity in many facets of everyone's lives. we can't always control the chaos of the world around us, but if we take responsibility for ourselves, then we can begin to wrestle some control over the important things in our lives anyway.


great post six-string, and a good reminder of solid priorities. getting out of and staying out of debt is a good idea at any time, esp now, imo


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## DUCK (Jul 4, 2007)

We are living, right now I will say I am happy with that. My wife lost her job the beginning of January and lucky for us she had a little savings. I make enough where I work to at least pay the bills and put food on the table (and occasionally get new strings) :smilie_flagge17:


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## puckhead (Sep 8, 2008)

I'm OK now, but it was pretty durned scary for a while there.

I joined a small investment company as VP of research early in 2008. Life was good, money was good, so we went really deep to buy our dream house right across from a great school for our daughter.
The financial markets completely froze up shortly thereafter. In November, the company ended.... 4 days notice. boom. of course, all of the other financial companies I knew were laying off their own staff, so there was no way they were taking on new hires. Was out of work (while the new heavy burden of debt seemed bigger by the day). Thank goodness we had some real estate to sell to hold us over, even if at the bottom of the market. Our biggest fear was that we'd lose the house and have to disrupt the kid.
I finally found something in a bit of an unrelated industry that has _potential _to make some dough, but until it does I m making about 1/2 of what i was before.

so summary we were doing great, now doing well I guess.

Interesting company I'm with now, though. We've got technology that reduces engine emissions (gas or diesel) by about 70%, while increasing fuel efficiency by about 30%. So it could be huge, but for now it kinda almost takes care of the bills.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i was doing real well until i came here and was not allowed to work for 3 years. that kinda killed my finances. 
i just joined the local on fri, so i expect to recover pretty quickly when things pick up this spring.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

:/ we are a one income family. Too many years of too many issues behind me. We struggle week to week for many things. We also "take advantage" of things when we can. This week we went to the AGO to see the Tut exhibit. We did because my son had a pediatrician appointment close to there to begin with, he also got given half the admissions to see the exhibit from a friend for his birthday (woo!) and we also did dinner out, which was paid for in gift certificats the wife's company hands out. So we did a 300 dollar day on less than 100 dollars. That STILL hurt us financially. But the mental benefit was worth it. Right now we have 2 weeks till next pay, and 40 dollars in the bank account. Some food in the fridge, bus tickets, but yea, another 2 weeks of stretching that 40 as far as we can.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

puckhead said:


> I'm OK now, but it was pretty durned scary for a while there.
> 
> Interesting company I'm with now, though. We've got technology that reduces engine emissions (gas or diesel) by about 70%, while increasing fuel efficiency by about 30%. So it could be huge, but for now it kinda almost takes care of the bills.


Hey Puck, would that company have anything to do with Stephenson's invention - can't remember his first name now, great guy, his brother makes great guitar amps too. If so, I bought a couple of his gizmo's and they really work well. just brilliant.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

After reading all of your posts, I kinda feel bad about mine. 

I consider myself fortunate for having a relatively recession proof job with a pension plan (so far anyways). My wife is still working part-time and my kids are healthy and happy. I am no Donald Trump (and I certainly don't have his hair) but I saw an opportunity to better my families financial situation and I made the best of a bad situation. Luckily things worked out - so far. 

I agree with some of the other posters that at the end of the day the most important thing is the health and well being of family and friends. I wish you guys well.


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## puckhead (Sep 8, 2008)

bluesmostly said:


> Hey Puck, would that company have anything to do with Stephenson's invention - can't remember his first name now, great guy, his brother makes great guitar amps too. If so, I bought a couple of his gizmo's and they really work well. just brilliant.


Nope. probably a competitive product.
The inventor of my deal is out of Victoria. We recently ran his truck through Aircare, and the results were just phenomenal.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

We're doing okay. Both of us are civil servants in jobs where our respective organizations would crumble around us if we ever left, so they're as secure as we want them to be. Nice thing about government is they're not about to leave town. One of the boys has moved out, seemingly for good, and isn't in terrible financial shape, and our other son has most of his costs suitably addressed.

We bought our home late in life (I snuck it in just ahead of my 50th birthday), but hope to have it paid in full in a half dozen years or so. That's meant big mortgage payments (no $2500 Gibsons, Taylors, or custom shop Fenders for me, thank you!), but it has also made all of our expenditures realistic. I also have an aversion to plastic, and maintain only an 18% interest VISA card, just to deter me from using it very much. Drives the telemarketers crazy when they call offering me lower interest rates and I tell them I want the highest one. Better them crazy and me solvent, than them happy and me in hock to my eyeballs.

I've made it a point not to invest in anything...and I mean* any*thing, not even RRSPs. Drives the folks at the bank crazy. "How can you just let your money *sit* there?", they say. I just get paid, stick the money is a low interest savings account, and shell out for my mortgage and groceries and charitable donations (which provide more return than interest anyways). I suppose there is some sort of public service pension and CPP down the road, but I have no plans to retire. That's taken a great load off, since there is no ticking clock about how much I have to have saved by when. I may switch to another line of work when I get fed up with what I'm doing (managers seem to get stupider with each passing year), but I expect to live principally off an earned wage until my last breath. Nothing noble in that. Millions of people do it around the world.

So, in general, all "the economy" has provided is tons of tragic stories about other folks who are in more volatile circumstances. I'm not scoffing at them, or blaming them for their circumstances. We just happened to make some choices that threaded this particular needle for us.


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

We are fairing very well so far. Not sure what is to come. My job is directly related to the economy. I sell Caterpillar heavy equipment. In a recession less dirt is moved, so less equipment is purchased. I have been able to flip rocks and earn a living
selling any equipment I can. My wife took a 3/4 full time job at Home Depot. It help us during the dry months of no sales. If the bubble is about to break still, well there's not much I can do about it other than prepare my family. We hopefully can get through it.
We have no credit card debt, no other loans other than the mortgage. Lucky for us it's a smaller sized payment so I think we can get through what is to come. Like many others my RRSP's took a big hit, but I have seen some decent recovery in the last few months. Might disappear again though. Housing market here in Kamloops, has so far been pretty stable. If we have to, we can get by on two low income jobs. No more guitars, amps and pedals though! sigiifa


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## Guest (Jan 24, 2010)

mhammer said:


> I may switch to another line of work when I get fed up with what I'm doing (managers seem to get stupider with each passing year), but I expect to live principally off an earned wage until my last breath. Nothing noble in that. Millions of people do it around the world.


Retirement was a short-lived phenomenon for sure. I expect to work until the day I die. My goals are to end up doing something I love so much it doesn't seem like work. Far different from trying to sock it all away so I can stop doing it altogether.


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

We're doing fairly well. I have fewer students than I'm used to but enough to make ends meet. My husband was laid off but found another job quickly, and it has turned out to be a better job. We have pretty simple tastes so that keeps expenses low. Life is good.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

> My goals are to end up doing something I love so much it doesn't seem like work. Far different from trying to sock it all away so I can stop doing it altogether.


yeah man! thats the way.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I stay out of stocks, RRSP's, and the rest of the lot and didn't lose any money with the crash. My father-in-law who thought I was crazy, lost 25%. He doesn't mention it to me anymore.

I put my money in my business and I haven't lost any money. I'll leave it at that.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

keithb7 said:


> We are fairing very well so far. Not sure what is to come. My job is directly related to the economy. I sell Caterpillar heavy equipment. In a recession less dirt is moved, so less equipment is purchased. I have been able to flip rocks and earn a living
> selling any equipment I can. My wife took a 3/4 full time job at Home Depot. It help us during the dry months of no sales. If the bubble is about to break still, well there's not much I can do about it other than prepare my family. We hopefully can get through it.
> We have no credit card debt, no other loans other than the mortgage. Lucky for us it's a smaller sized payment so I think we can get through what is to come. Like many others my RRSP's took a big hit, but I have seen some decent recovery in the last few months. Might disappear again though. Housing market here in Kamloops, has so far been pretty stable. If we have to, we can get by on two low income jobs. No more guitars, amps and pedals though! sigiifa


Hey Keith, you must work for Finning. I just finished a rehearsal with Eric Hanson who plays drums for my main band, The Blues Jumpers, we are opening for the Olympic Torch ceremony on wednesday. I have a couple of good buds who work for Finning.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

iaresee said:


> I expect to work until the day I die. My goals are to end up doing something I love so much it doesn't seem like work.


I feel very blessed and priviledged to be doing just that. Though I have worked hard, paid my dues and made many sacrifices and 'risky' choices along the way. The concept of retirement is beyond me, I do exactly what I want and have made a good living doing it (I am one of those rare, successful artists).


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

iaresee said:


> Retirement was a short-lived phenomenon for sure. I expect to work until the day I die. My goals are to end up doing something I love so much it doesn't seem like work. Far different from trying to sock it all away so I can stop doing it altogether.


I know too much about the history of pensions and and the social institution of retirement to see it as anything more than a socio-cultural blip that will likely last at best another 20 years in the form we know it now. It relied strongly on a sort of "eclipse" of several different social and economic factors lining up, and tended to be pushed into the spotlight primarily because so many people were doing work they either hated or could not physically sustain. Currently, more folks have careers and skillsets that permit them to work comfortably and skillfully well into their 8th decade, and the economic factors that permitted retirement to emerge as a social institution have simply fallen out of alignment.

The new arrangement is that we will continue to receive pension, but for a great many people, that pension will simply be something that lets them ease into work they *like* to do, rather than work they *need* to do to pull in the sort of salary needed to make all their family expenses. In other words, it will gradually revert to what it started out as: a topping up of one's earned income. Indeed, many of those who are technically "retired" these days are nothing of the sort. They receive pension, but they have not withdrawn from the labour force. The pension simply provides a sort of fiscal cushion that lets them do work which has riskier revenue streams attached to it (e.g., the feast and famine of selling crafts, or working for NGOs, or doing consulting).

Folks who have bought into the advertising spiel about "prime 55" (something the folks who make money off your investments want you to believe in, and have relentlessly purveyed as a normative lifestyle so that you're desperate for their services...which, ironically, are generally provided by people several decades away from this idealized retirement) may feel themselves cheated, but the facts are that people like work, they like having a schedule and work-mates, and they like the feeling of a Friday night....and wives do NOT appreciate husbands hanging around the kitchen telling them how to wash the dishes "properly". So, it won't be a punishment from God, but it WILL be different than you might have expected.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

i say- jolly good post old chap!



mhammer said:


> I know too much about the history of pensions and and the social institution of retirement to see it as anything more than a socio-cultural blip that will likely last at best another 20 years in the form we know it now. It relied strongly on a sort of "eclipse" of several different social and economic factors lining up, and tended to be pushed into the spotlight primarily because so many people were doing work they either hated or could not physically sustain. Currently, more folks have careers and skillsets that permit them to work comfortably and skillfully well into their 8th decade, and the economic factors that permitted retirement to emerge as a social institution have simply fallen out of alignment.
> 
> The new arrangement is that we will continue to receive pension, but for a great many people, that pension will simply be something that lets them ease into work they *like* to do, rather than work they *need* to do to pull in the sort of salary needed to make all their family expenses. In other words, it will gradually revert to what it started out as: a topping up of one's earned income. Indeed, many of those who are technically "retired" these days are nothing of the sort. They receive pension, but they have not withdrawn from the labour force. The pension simply provides a sort of fiscal cushion that lets them do work which has riskier revenue streams attached to it (e.g., the feast and famine of selling crafts, or working for NGOs, or doing consulting).
> 
> Folks who have bought into the advertising spiel about "prime 55" (something the folks who make money off your investments want you to believe in, and have relentlessly purveyed as a normative lifestyle so that you're desperate for their services...which, ironically, are generally provided by people several decades away from this idealized retirement) may feel themselves cheated, but the facts are that people like work, they like having a schedule and work-mates, and they like the feeling of a Friday night....and wives do NOT appreciate husbands hanging around the kitchen telling them how to wash the dishes "properly". So, it won't be a punishment from God, but it WILL be different than you might have expected.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Glad you enjoyed it. I'm not a labour economist, but I did my doctorate in adult development and aging, so I tend to follow the literature and historical trends. StatsCan's reports essentially concur with some of what I'm saying, although they don't go so far as to declare "retirement" going through it's last gasps.

Seems to me there are two big issues emerging out of the economic meltdown. There are those who have lost either all or a big chunk of their livelihood (and possibly their home) through loss of markets or employment. And there are those who have not taken a hit on anything current in their lives, but _have_ taken a hit on their futures, namely their retirement-oriented investments. One shouldn't confuse the two.


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## Michelle (Aug 21, 2006)

*From the Other Side*

Actually, I feel quite blessed having been retired for almost 1yr, I was very fortunate, but not so 'wise' at the time when, in the mid-90's, where the company was offering a conversion of the pension plan to a DC plan. Of course, your money was supposed to double in 7yrs, retire a millionaire, etc, (it's a scam if they play on your greed). Many said I was dumb for not 'getting all that money', I stayed put, kept my DB pension and will receive a livable sum, (after the severance), not extravagant, but more than what many people make working 40hrs. And I didn't lose my savings by investing in Nortel. I do not have any stocks, RRSP's, etc but I have a home, some cash, my health, loved ones, and all the time in the world.

I might do some short-term contract work next year but I just can't imagine doing the corp gig again, (and/or IT for that matter), too unhealthy. I play the odd bar gig, that is a return on the investment of my gear and is fun. I'm very good with my hands so there's lots of opportunities there if I want.

So, at 51, my life is pretty awesome, it's a bit surreal, they just don't realize that I'm really 17 inside, and retired!?! And a clock for a retirement gift? WTH do I need that for? Every day is a Saturday, every nite is a Fri nite, doesn't matter what time it is. I spend most of my time outdoors or in my shop.

I think I've broke on thru to the other side................


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

I guess we are pretty fortunate. My wife and I both have reasonably secure, well-paying jobs and carry no credit card debt. We figure that, if we need to use credit to buy something (other than our house), we can't afford it. We started saving for our daughters' post-secondary educations when they were born and, with the oldest one a year away from university, we have the majority of it covered. I am 7 years away from "retirement" age and could stop working then if I want to but I doubt if I will. I would probably go stir-crazy if I did.Through good planning, good advice and a little luck, we've weathered this "downturn" fairly well (knock on wood) but nothing is ever certain, is it? At least once a day, I try to say a silent "thank you" for the good life we have and another silent "prayer" that it continues. I think we are all extremely fortunate to live in such an amazing country as Canada.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I've been taking a beating just very recently thats forced me to tighten the budget in every aspect. My wife and I so far still have our jobs and can maintain our daily household but the extras are out for the next while. Including probably even golf this summer. That is gonna hurt.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Big_Daddy said:


> I guess we are pretty fortunate. My wife and I both have reasonably secure, well-paying jobs and carry no credit card debt. We figure that, if we need to use credit to buy something (other than our house), we can't afford it.


Now THAT's what I'm talkin' about. Take a memo, kids. That's what maturity looks like.


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

mhammer said:


> Now THAT's what I'm talkin' about. Take a memo, kids. That's what maturity looks like.


Haha...I don't know about mature, but it does just make common sense.


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## Guest (Jan 25, 2010)

Big_Daddy said:


> Haha...I don't know about mature, but it does just make common sense.


 Far from common. Far, far, far, far from common.  Took my wife and I a few years to learn this lesson back in our 20's and it is liberating when you figure it out. That you don't deserve everything you want right freaking now. Things are indeed sweeter when you work for them. And _nothing_ beats paying cash for everything.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

"Common sense "(AKA "horse sense") is the sense that horses are born with that keeps them from betting on people.

A bit of comic relief....

cheers

Dave


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I was fortunate enough to be one of the few in my industry (supplier to Auto OEMs) to ride this one out. In fact, ironically, the worse things have become, the more I've prospered. I apologize to anyone who wasn't so lucky if this seems like boasting. I'm bloody grateful and I saw a lot of friends and colleagues clean out their desks which is not a nice thing to see.

Also, at the same time, my little production company has taken off like wildfire. Truthfully 2009 ws the best year I've ever had and I expect 2010 to be better yet.


I'm sitting in a hotel in Guadalajara right now and will be in Mexico on business all week. This is my job?


I may never get rich, but right now, I'm pretty happy.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Gonna make about 10% less this yr than last yr, but in the big picture we're still doing ok...As are a lot of other ppl, as I cant find trades to help out with my reno projects....they're all booked up


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...at a time when i was already unable to make it from paycheck to paycheck, i took some serious hits: simultaneous rent increase and dramatic pay cut.

yet i still somehow manage to convince myself that these are "the good times".

-dh


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

I,m currently laid off from my job of 15 years, since the end of Aug............lost about 25% of my meagre RRSP,s.........luckily was able to increase the mortgage to get rid of the plastic debt and the credit line............currently on pogey...........turning 60 in 2010 so not in a position to try for CPP (36% reduction for early retirement)..............unfortunetly not qualified on paper to persue employment that is similar to what I was doing.........so far nothing meaningful for work in the area (that pays even as much as pogey)...........current option may be gov't funded retraining.........at my age, LOL.............otherwise things are OK.........at least I have my health and we are surviving............what I find annoying is the skillful way the statistical information is skewed to the media to make it look like there are less individuals collecting pogey........just look at the municipal numbers........those unfortunate enough to have used up their unemployment benifits are now on the ever increasing welfare rolls..........what also peeves me is the signage that has appeared locally boasting infrastructure progects.........these projects have been in the works for many years...........with still no apparent progress........I think the only ones they are helping are the guys that get to make all that pretty signage..............not meant to be a rant.........just how it looks on this side of the fence.............maybe I,ll win the lottery...........LOL........good luck to all for 2010............


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I would not go so far as to say the unemployment figures are deliberately skewed to look better than they are. However, I would agree that they likely don't capture the number of folks out of work or under-employed particularly well. The challenge is really one of having a dependable source of information, that can be relied on to deliver, month in month out, so that one can compare over time. And things like pogey claims, while a dependable source of information for StatsCan, is not necessarily a *comprehensive* source of info about folks in your position.

As we learn every day at work, what is *easy* to measure is not necessarily the *best* measure, and what you *need* to measure may not be the most *dependable* or accurate source of information.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

mhammer said:


> I would not go so far as to say the unemployment figures are deliberately skewed to look better than they are. However, I would agree that they likely don't capture the number of folks out of work or under-employed particularly well. The challenge is really one of having a dependable source of information, that can be relied on to deliver, month in month out, so that one can compare over time. And things like pogey claims, while a dependable source of information for StatsCan, is not necessarily a *comprehensive* source of info about folks in your position.
> 
> As we learn every day at work, what is *easy* to measure is not necessarily the *best* measure, and what you *need* to measure may not be the most *dependable* or accurate source of information.



Hmm, I dunno Mark. Seems to me that the government knows 1) how many people are in Canada 2) how many of those are between 14 and dead 3) how many people filed an income tax return and 4) how many of those are below, at, near, around or however you would want to describe it the poverty level.

Ok, granted, this would paint a "once a year" picture, but that picture should really be the key for reviewing any other statistics gathered on employment no?


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

keeperofthegood said:


> Hmm, I dunno Mark. Seems to me that the government knows 1) how many people are in Canada 2) how many of those are between 14 and dead 3) how many people filed an income tax return and 4) how many of those are below, at, near, around or however you would want to describe it the poverty level.
> 
> Ok, granted, this would paint a "once a year" picture, but that picture should really be the key for reviewing any other statistics gathered on employment no?


And they most certainly shouldn't spin running out of EI as being an increase in jobs!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Start here: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/start-debut-eng.html


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

mhammer said:


> Start here: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/start-debut-eng.html


:bow: more info for my stuffed up sinuses today but yes, that is where it would be to see the information making more real sense of it all yes....


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

mhammer said:


> ironically, are generally provided by people several decades away from this idealized retirement) may feel themselves cheated, but the facts are that people like work, they like having a schedule and work-mates, and they like the feeling of a Friday night....and wives do NOT appreciate husbands hanging around the kitchen telling them how to wash the dishes "properly".


Good point and the part about the dishes made me laugh out loud!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

keeperofthegood said:


> :bow: more info for my stuffed up sinuses today but yes, that is where it would be to see the information making more real sense of it all yes....


It's part of what you pay taxes for. Indeed, it is part of how the feds and provincials AND municipalities figure out how much taxes you oughta pay and where they need most to be spent.
People think stuff like the census is just plain nosy, and grumble about it, but consider this: when your municipality wants to know what sort of sewage capacity to build into your street and neighbourhood, they need to know just exactly how many people will be taking a dump there any given day. When they have to decide between pumping money into this academic program or that, they need to have an idea of which career paths show the most growth and potential for futher growth.

And so on and so on. Politicians at every level are capable of making ethical (and sometimes unethical) decisions. It takes stats (and understanding them) to make the smart ones, though.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

mhammer said:


> It's part of what you pay taxes for. Indeed, it is part of how the feds and provincials AND municipalities figure out how much taxes you oughta pay and where they need most to be spent.
> People think stuff like the census is just plain nosy, and grumble about it, but consider this: when your municipality wants to know what sort of sewage capacity to build into your street and neighbourhood, they need to know just exactly how many people will be taking a dump there any given day. When they have to decide between pumping money into this academic program or that, they need to have an idea of which career paths show the most growth and potential for futher growth.
> 
> And so on and so on. Politicians at every level are capable of making ethical (and sometimes unethical) decisions. It takes stats (and understanding them) to make the smart ones, though.


i tend to ignore everything involving politics and political folks, and everything thats involved. not my world. but this makes real sense lol.


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