# Speeding ticket



## Guest (Mar 2, 2006)

76 in a 50 zone  122 bucks and 3 points. I decided to *fight* it 'cos there was a buch of cars and we were all over the limit. I might have been a little faster but not by much. We were all moving along pretty much together. I'm hoping that the amount will be reduced and not loose the points.

Anyhoo, today is my First Attendance meeting. What do I say? Anyone's been there?


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Its funny, I speed all the time, and I never got a ticket. I've been pulled over twice, but never got a ticket. Once I was pulled over doing 100 over the limit, and got a warning. I guess I have nicer legs than you.............


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2006)

He didn't even give me a chance to show my legs  Hopefully posting this is not going to jinx you


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

Deux d' Pic said:


> 76 in a 50 zone  122 bucks and 3 points. I decided to *fight* it 'cos there was a buch of cars and we were all over the limit. I might have been a little faster but not by much. We were all moving along pretty much together. I'm hoping that the amount will be reduced and not loose the points.
> 
> Anyhoo, today is my First Attendance meeting. What do I say? Anyone's been there?


Good Luck! You are going to need it, the speed limit is the speed limit not the speed everyone else is travelling.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2006)

Jeff Flowerday said:


> Good Luck! You are going to need it, the speed limit is the speed limit not the speed everyone else is travelling.



A few years back, this woman came here for training or whatever. She was either from Calgary or Edmonton. She said "OMD! people here (around Toronto) drive like maniacs. So I guess that you guys respect the speed limit more than we do here. Thanks for the good luck, I may need it.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

Deux d' Pic said:


> A few years back, this woman came here for training or whatever. She was either from Calgary or Edmonton. She said "OMD! people here (around Toronto) drive like maniacs. So I guess that you guys respect the speed limit more than we do here. Thanks for the good luck, I may need it.


I don't respect the speed limit and I'm usually leading the pack of speeders. That said I honestly don't believe you have a leg to stand on with this one. Sorry man!


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2006)

Jeff Flowerday said:


> I don't respect the speed limit and I'm usually leading the pack of speeders. That said I honestly don't believe you have a leg to stand on with this one. Sorry man!


That's ok. I'm just not too sure as to what to say. I'll just be very nice to him (and slip him a $20 bill as I shake his hand) 

Well I got to go. It's 12:30 and my appointment is at 1. I guess I'll have to use excessive speed and cut everybody off if I want to get there on time


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I think all Canadian drivers blow chunks. I always thought we should have an Autobahn here, but with the way people drive, it just wouldnt work. At least on the Autobahn the drivers have common sence to drive at the speed their car was designed for, and kept to the slow lanes. Speeding is dangerous if you are exceeding what your car is designed to be driven at...............


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## Emohawk (Feb 3, 2006)

I remember there used to be a guy who had an office right outside the courthouse around here who specialized in "pleading down" speeding tickets. Don't know if he's still around or not. I haven't gotten one since around 1991.


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2006)

It's all so *dramatic*. Get there and there's a bunch of confused people waiting around. By one of the door, there's a list of about 50 people or so whose appointment is at one o'clock (the confused people waiting). But the door is locked and nobody to tell you anything.

You wait and finally the door opens and a guy comes out, mumbles a few words and goes back in. "what did he say?" "huh?"... So we figured that we line up and go in when he says "next". Say hi, sit down, he looks for your file.

"So I guess you're here 'cos you want to pay less and not loose points?" he ask. Eh.. yeah. "How's $65 and no points?" Ok I guess. "Just sit outside in the hall and we'll call you".

Wait another 15 - 20 minutes. The doors of the courtroom open. A bunch of guys in spendex come out with long long trumpets... TA TATATAAAAAAA! (just kidding). You all go in and sit in the courtroom for another 15 - 20 minutes. It's ver very very quiet. Nobody talks. The guy we all went to talk to is sitting facing the judge (I guess he's now our attourney).

The judge comes in. ALL RISE!!! Then our *attourney* talks to the judge, calls up everybody one at a time. "State your name". Attourney talks to the judge on your behalf. A clerk read your offence to you then "what do you plead? Guilty or not-guilty?". You say "guilty".

The judge sentences you and the fine is $35 (+ $10 for whatever). You leave the courtroom, pay your fine and you're outta there. Like I said, it's so dramatic that they should offer a meal and a couple of drinks and turn this into a dinner-theatre or something


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

What a waste of tax payers dollars. Why not just give the cops a VISA machine in their cars. You get caught, you pay the fine, the end.............


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

Deux d' Pic said:


> It's all so *dramatic*. Get there and there's a bunch of confused people waiting around. By one of the door, there's a list of about 50 people or so whose appointment is at one o'clock (the confused people waiting). But the door is locked and nobody to tell you anything.
> 
> You wait and finally the door opens and a guy comes out, mumbles a few words and goes back in. "what did he say?" "huh?"... So we figured that we line up and go in when he says "next". Say hi, sit down, he looks for your file.
> 
> ...


Makes you wonder why they give the ticket in the first place? This is definate good to know.


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## MaxWedge (Feb 24, 2006)

Hey, you did your part keeping an *attourney* employed. :rockon:


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## Guest (Mar 2, 2006)

Just want to add that (here in Ontario anyway) there are 3 options for paying a ticket

1) plead guilty and pay fine (full amount, loose points, ..)

2) (the one I did) is plead guilty "with explanation" for a lesser charge.

3) plead not-guilty and go to court

I agree, it's a big waste of time and money.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Deux d' Pic said:


> 76 in a 50 zone  122 bucks and 3 points. I decided to *fight* it 'cos there was a buch of cars and we were all over the limit. I might have been a little faster but not by much. We were all moving along pretty much together. I'm hoping that the amount will be reduced and not loose the points.
> Anyhoo, today is my First Attendance meeting. What do I say? Anyone's been there?


...think of it as a voluntary tax - the price you pay for endangering the lives of others.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Its funny, I speed all the time, and I never got a ticket. I've been pulled over twice, but never got a ticket. Once I was pulled over doing 100 over the limit, and got a warning. I guess I have nicer legs than you.............


...risking your own life and the lives of others is truly hilarious.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

How am I risking my life or lives of other people again?.................


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## WarrenG (Feb 3, 2006)

Deux d' Pic said:


> 2) (the one I did) is plead guilty "with explanation" for a lesser charge.


And what was you "explanation"? How, in your words, was exceeding the posted limit by 50%, justifiable?


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## Mahogany Martin (Mar 2, 2006)

WarrenG said:


> And what was you "explanation"? How, in your words, was exceeding the posted limit by 50%, justifiable?


That's just it, there is no explanation for say. The *explanation* is given to the judge by your *attourney* (a plea for a lesser charge). Then they read to you what happened (...on this street, at this time, ..) but they change the speed you were going at (I got caught at 76 and when they read it to me, they said "...you were driving at 65 in a 50 zone... how do you plead?"). You say "guilty" so you are accepting the *new* charge. It's a warning kind of thing.

Edit: the *attourney* is the guy you speak with when you first get there.


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## Mahogany Martin (Mar 2, 2006)

BTW, I first signed in here as Deux d' Pic then I changed it.

See I hadn't had any speeding ticket in well over 5 year maybe even 10. The I got one I believe a little more than a year ago. The officer that day asked me if I had had any tickets lately. I said no. He went to his car, came back and gave me a ticket for about 50 bucks or so. I got caught at about the same speed (about 75 in a 50).

But this last ticket, the officer asked me the same question then went to his cruiser and when he came back, explained how much it was and that I was losing 3 points. Then he said "but you should really call this number and make an appointment... you might only have to pay about 50 dollars and you may not loose points".

Like I said, it's a more formal warning (you have to go during the day so you loose time at work, etc).


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> How am I risking my life or lives of other people again?.................


Originally Posted by Accept2
Its funny, I speed all the time, and I never got a ticket. I've been pulled over twice, but never got a ticket. Once I was pulled over doing 100 over the limit..


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## Jaggery (Mar 12, 2006)

Jeff Flowerday said:


> Good Luck! You are going to need it, the speed limit is the speed limit not the speed everyone else is travelling.


Thats pretty much it.
I got one for doing 70 in a 50 , where other cars were doing more than me easily. But i was easier to catch.

40 bucks, the cop didnt follow it up and the check I sent was returned to me.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Youre making alot of assumptions about that. Maybe there is a reason I didnt get any tickets? Having over 20 years of track experiance, I can tell you that speed doesnt cause accidents, its people who dont know how to drive. Most accidents happen at lower speeds, and when an accident does happen at higher speeds, its caused by someone who doesnt know what they are doing, and isnt using the proper equipment. Driving at high speeds requires a car that is designed for it, equiped with the proper equipment to handle those speeds. I remember one year at One Lap of America, some doctor showed up with a Ferrarri redhead and didnt have the proper tires. He was quickly dead because he didnt have any experiance or the proper equipment for driving at 180mph. Of course the organizers should have checked his tires, but they didnt. That race isnt like Nascar where your tires are provided to you by the Nascar organization. I prefer the German liecensing method. There is a reason why Germans can drive on the Autobahn all day long at high speed and not have a problem. Of course once a tourist shows up, then all hell breaks loose.............


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Youre making alot of assumptions about that. Maybe there is a reason I didnt get any tickets? Having over 20 years of track experiance, I can tell you that speed doesnt cause accidents, its people who dont know how to drive. Most accidents happen at lower speeds, and when an accident does happen at higher speeds, its caused by someone who doesnt know what they are doing, and isnt using the proper equipment. .


...do you have statistics to back any of this up?

according to folks like sgt woolley, excessive speed IS a major cause of accidents, as well as a major factor in the severity of injuries, and death.

perhaps you can explain how a slower driver causes an accident?

in my not so humble opinion, speeding shows a callous disregard for the safety of others. there is absolutely no excuse for it. none whatsoever. our highways are NOT racetracks, and commuting is NOT a competition.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Whatever grandma..............


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## Emohawk (Feb 3, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...do you have statistics to back any of this up?
> 
> according to folks like sgt woolley, excessive speed IS a major cause of accidents, as well as a major factor in the severity of injuries, and death.
> 
> ...


I think Accept2 is saying slower drivers cause accidents because they get in the speeders' way... 

But you're right. Speed limits are there for a reason...to keep drivers from killing themselves, each other, and innocent pedestrians.

To Accept2:
And regarding the quote about accidents being caused by people speeding in cars that weren't designed for it is, in my opinion, a little silly. The design of the car is not the issue. It's the design of the ROADS. There's no road in this country that was designed for what boils down to race driving. That's what they build these things called race tracks for, and things like the Autobahn. If you were doing 100 over the limit & didn't get a ticket, the cop should be busted down to walking a street beat during the graveyard shift. That is simply inexcusable, regardless of the circumstances.

And before you throw the "grandma" comment my way also, I'd like to point out that I too have 20+ years of driving under my belt, and the first few of those were on a motorcycle. I admit I used to drive like an idiot, and quite frankly I feel lucky to be alive looking back now. I've also been in your situation of driving a completely stupid amount over the limit & not getting a ticket. That doesn't make it right.

By the way, the fact that your example came from a race track incident is interesting...  

All just my opinion of course. Hang loose y'all!

Kirb


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I think you make alot of assumptions. I am not some idiot 16 year old. I do prototype test runs on the track, some times on the runway, and yes on the street. When I push something on the road, its in the middle of nowhere, and its under controlled situations. And I can tell you, the design of a car has alot to do with its safety at high speeds. Even down to the basics such as the wheelbase attribute to the way it will behave at high speeds. Thats why when you race, you will have a different car for each track.............


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

He's right... I drive over 50K a year for work. Mostly from Niagara to Detroit along the 401/402 and it has become very apparent to me that the lack of skills and lack of attention displayed by younger drivers today is outrageous. They will push these little neons and sunbirds way beyond their capabilities. These cars are junk and were made specifically to get young drivers on the road, or people that are looking for the cheapest mode of transportation. 

I drive a Grand Prix GTP with the Comp G package and I can take corners at high speeds. But I will always have some punk screaming up behind me and try to do the same thing.... they have no idea what the limits of a car are, they can barely understand that the oil needs to be changed once in a while. The young girls are the worst for speeding, cell phones attached to their heads.

I am no proponent of speeding, but to travel less than 110 KPH on the 400 series highways is just asking for trouble. It is dangerous out there.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Whatever grandma..............


...actually, i'm a fairly agressive driver. that said, i will not tailgate, change lanes in order to advance by one stupid car-length, run red lights or stop signs, use run-off lanes, on-ramps or off-ramps as passing lanes, or drive at 100 kmh when the flow of traffic is 120, or 80. i will, however, happily give the one-finger salute to anyone driving at speeds in excess of 140, especially in heavy traffic. its a public service, and the least i can do, unless it happens to be some backward-baseball-cap-wearing wannabe in a beat up honda with nothing to lose.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> I am no proponent of speeding, but to travel less than 110 KPH on the 400 series highways is just asking for trouble. It is dangerous out there.


...i tend to agree. i think its crucial to stay with the flow of traffic. that said, we all have a right to be able use the highways for which we pay with our taxes. i have no problem exercising a little patience with those who don't happen to be ace drivers, even those mystifying left-lane bandits. i have zero patience with arrogant, me-first types.


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## Mahogany Martin (Mar 2, 2006)

We all have a bit of an *agressive* side when driving (it's required somewhat) and those of us who either like to "get there sooner than later" or "temporarily succumb to a test of our patience" are no more *endangerment to others lives* than the losers and selfish hooked to cell phones obliviously driving sssloow in the left lane or whatever else carelessness they commit.

When you *follow the pack* and that you get targeted and pointed to pull over, you feel *betrayed* and/or *singled out. But when you think about it, if we're all going at least 20 to 25 kms over the limit, we're all *endangering* according to the speed limit that was established for that area.

The officer on the side of the road just picks someone. At that point, you may just be *passing* a bunch of cars. And if the limit is 50 and everybody travels at 70 -73 kms, then you're doing 75 - 77 ... in a 50 zone! OMG IT'S TERRIBLE!!! YOU'RE PUTTING EVERYBODY'S LIFE IN DANGER!!! YOU CRIMINAL!!!  

But it's not really. I don't consider myself a fast driver yet I got pulled over twice in the last year and a half. It makes me think. But it's just a matter of time before you cowboys get pulled over (and have to pay the price). :sport-smiley-002:


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## walden (Feb 5, 2006)

funniest thing ever.

my buddy drove to calgary last week from ontario. the only time he gets pulled over is right outside our town and the cop (obviously bored or trying to fill his quota of tickets) tries to give him a ticket for throwing a cigarette out the window. like what the hell is that? i guess he talked out of it but i laughed at the sheer lunacy of police officers for that.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

walden said:


> funniest thing ever.
> my buddy drove to calgary last week from ontario. the only time he gets pulled over is right outside our town and the cop (obviously bored or trying to fill his quota of tickets) tries to give him a ticket for throwing a cigarette out the window. like what the hell is that? i guess he talked out of it but i laughed at the sheer lunacy of police officers for that.


...hilarious. we should be allowed to throw our garbage anywhere we like.


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## Emohawk (Feb 3, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> I think you make alot of assumptions. I am not some idiot 16 year old. I do prototype test runs on the track, some times on the runway, and yes on the street. When I push something on the road, its in the middle of nowhere, and its under controlled situations. And I can tell you, the design of a car has alot to do with its safety at high speeds. Even down to the basics such as the wheelbase attribute to the way it will behave at high speeds. Thats why when you race, you will have a different car for each track.............


Not sure if you're responding to my comments or not, but here goes anyway!!! 

I'm certainly not making any assumptions. I didn't mean to suggest you were running 160 through residential neighborhoods or anything (because that really WOULD deserve being called an idiot!). I'm also not saying a well designed car is not safe at high speeds. I'm just saying that generally speaking the roads aren't particularly safe for high speeds. Then again, I'm from Newfoundland, and a lot of our roads are barely conducive to low speeds!!!


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## MelD (Jun 22, 2007)

Deux d' Pic said:


> 76 in a 50 zone  122 bucks and 3 points. I decided to *fight* it 'cos there was a buch of cars and we were all over the limit. I might have been a little faster but not by much. We were all moving along pretty much together. I'm hoping that the amount will be reduced and not loose the points.
> 
> Anyhoo, today is my First Attendance meeting. What do I say? Anyone's been there?


Just try not to lose your points. you could say sorry .I know someone who said so when she rear ended my wifes car paid the fine but did not lose points as she said she was sorry.


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

Ever wonder why the words 'Speed Limit' and 'Maximum Speed' were removed from all of our traffic signs back in the early eighties? It is because in order to give someone a ticket for breaking a 100KM/hour 'speed limit', someone would have to follow you around for an hour and make sure that you hadn't traveled more than 100 KM - they didn't do this of course but I guess someone argued the point enouhgh times to phase the words off the signs.

The limit that is imposed on our streets and highways is actually a velocity limit - the signs should have said 'maximum velocity' (rate of speed). Your spedometer is actually a velocity meter.

I would go to court and ask for 'full disclosure' if your were pulled over with a radar or laser gun. They will have to produe all of the training records for the officer, as well as the service history of the device that was used to judge your velocity.


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## MelD (Jun 22, 2007)

not everybody has a good reflex and thus when you speed by someone like so, you just send confusion signals in his brains and then what?...


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## MelD (Jun 22, 2007)

david henman said:


> ...hilarious. we should be allowed to throw our garbage anywhere we like.


anywhere in your own yard you mean?


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## MelD (Jun 22, 2007)

david henman said:


> Originally Posted by Accept2
> Its funny, I speed all the time, and I never got a ticket. I've been pulled over twice, but never got a ticket. Once I was pulled over doing 100 over the limit..


you gotta be bullshitting. Not on the 401 or 407 for sure.
maybe at night in some goddamed lonely industrial site drag racing perhaps.


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## MelD (Jun 22, 2007)

Accept2 said:


> What a waste of tax payers dollars. Why not just give the cops a VISA machine in their cars. You get caught, you pay the fine, the end.............


dont give the government that idea. They'll charge you first then get you to fight in court to get your money back. more tax payers money gone.


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## bluecoyote (May 18, 2007)

*An Easy Fix*

I have solved my speeding ticket problem and I have to tell you, it was really easy. I just go the speed limit! 

Have not had a speeding ticket in 8 years! I don't give a shit how fast anyone else is going. That takes some will power in Alberta, where most drivers think the speed limit is just a rough guideline. I even drive 100km on Deerfoot Trail. Imagine that! Since I have grey hair, other drivers just think I am a senile old fart and leave me alone! Going the speed limit almost always guarantees that the police will leave you alone too!


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

*Symptom or cause?*

Long and interesting thread!

It's true that speed in itself is not dangerous. The converse seems to be true, that most dangerous drivers do speed! Would slowing them down solve the problem? Not likely, they'll just hit things at slower speeds. Maybe a bit less damage, though.

Driving the limit while holding up the flow of traffic strikes me as incredibly selfish. Sure you won't get a ticket but meanwhile you may leave busloads of nuns and orphans smashed up in ditches behind you! True, getting a ticket for driving with the flow may be an unfair tax grab but at least no one is hurt or killed because of frustrated drivers trying to get around the slowpokes. Like the old saying: "You were right! Dead right!"

No one mentioned what I believe is perhaps the real cause of all the carnage. There are simply too few cops on the roads! Politicians give you the old line that "We can't afford to put a cop on EVERY corner!"

Seems to me what they're really saying is that "We have other priorities for your tax money, so we are putting cops on only a FEW corners!" Or highways, as we've been talking in this thread.

I was a road salesman for years around Southern Ontario and since 1990 I would say that I rarely saw a cop on the 400 series highways except when responding to an accident THAT ALREADY HAD OCCURRED or running radar. Patrols seem to be few or non-existent. I've even heard police chiefs on talk shows advising motorists to get a cell phone in case of being in need on a highway. We never used to need a cell phone! There was always a cop who would cruise by before too long a time had passed.

Enforcement would seem to be reactive rather than proactive, except for radar collections.

Back in the 70's the speed limit on the QEW from Hamilton to Toronto was 70 mph and I don't remember any more accidents than today. I do remember being pulled over once or twice and given a lecture on poor driving habits. When's the last time anyone can remember being pulled over to be told you had a taillight burnt out? The gov't doesn't make money letting you know about a burned out light yet that can be even more unsafe than a few kms over the limit.

We used to see cops pulling bad drivers all the time. Now the only bad type of driving is speeding, it would seem. You can bang off those radar tickets a lot faster than citing folks for not signalling a lane change. Or worse yet, driving for miles with your blinker still on and nobody behind you can be certain you're not going to move over and hit them! Everyone knew that training to get your license would only give you the basics of good driving. You would get better as you gained experience and part of doing that was the occasional correction from a cop that noticed you doing something wrong. It didn't always mean a ticket. The warning was enough and usually stayed with you for life.

So once again cynical Wild Bill is saying that we are all debating the quality and need of the bandaid and not the root cause of the blood. 

And the politicians like it that way! Cops cost money they would rather spend on canoe museums or whatever. They wouldn't have to put a cop on every corner but they could put out just a few on the QEW on patrol and it would be far more than we see now!

When that idiot cuts you off at 5 kms UNDER the limit radar or worse yet photo-radar won't do a damn thing to protect you!

More cops, fewer cricket million dollar grants.
:sport-smiley-002:


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Wild Bill, I think you would love the Autobahn. Its monitored and enforced heavily, and if they dont think you can handle the speed, or you drive too poorly, or too slow, they will yank you off really fast. Of course there is a different environment over there both on the road and politically. Its such a shame the Autobahn would never work over here.........


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

Hamm Guitars said:


> Ever wonder why the words 'Speed Limit' and 'Maximum Speed' were removed from all of our traffic signs back in the early eighties? It is because in order to give someone a ticket for breaking a 100KM/hour 'speed limit', someone would have to follow you around for an hour and make sure that you hadn't traveled more than 100 KM - they didn't do this of course but I guess someone argued the point enouhgh times to phase the words off the signs.
> 
> The limit that is imposed on our streets and highways is actually a velocity limit - the signs should have said 'maximum velocity' (rate of speed). Your spedometer is actually a velocity meter.
> 
> I would go to court and ask for 'full disclosure' if your were pulled over with a radar or laser gun. They will have to produe all of the training records for the officer, as well as the service history of the device that was used to judge your velocity.


That's exactly why you can go into court and dispute your ticket, say you are soooo sorry and they graciously allow you to pay a lesser fine. The morons that run the court realize that if everyone disputed their tickets to the extent that you describe, then the court system (let's not call it justice now - never has been) would come to a grinding halt and the government would not make any money off of their speeding tickets.

Whoever said speed kills is absolutely wrong. It's only one small factor. Bad drivers kill. People who drive beyond their capabilities kill. People who drive too fast for the road/traffic conditions kill. 

Gotta stop now. I could go on forever on this subject....Drive safely!:smilie_flagge17:


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## GuitaristZ (Jan 26, 2007)

you guys have it all wrong. You just need to drive a really GINORMOUS!!! junker car so everybody will stay very far away from you. Then you can speed all you like, and even the police will be afraid that your car could fly apart and kill them at any random time...so they wont dare chase you or give you a ticket! Hey! they may not even want to look at your car! haha


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> It's true that speed in itself is not dangerous. :sport-smiley-002:


...you folks only need to ask yourself one question: is speed part of the problem, or part of the solution?

it is interesting that we celebrate and glorify speed, then ask: why is there so much highway carnage?

virtually every day of the week there are collisions in the gta in which speed is either a major cause or a factor. i'm sorry, i just don't get the denial.

instead of being glorified and celebrated, speed needs to be made socially unacceptable, and we all need to be reminded that highway driving *is not a sport.*

as well, ANYONE caught driving 50 or more kmh over the limit should *automatically* lose their license (life and death emergencies excluded, of course).

however, i have special contempt for those who constantly whine about the so-called _left lane bandit_.

we have 3,000 deaths and 250,000 injuries annually on our highways. i defy anyone to prove that even one of those incidents was caused directly by this mythical left lane bandit. i'll even go so far as to challenge anyone to explain how they, personally, have been "inconvenienced" by a so-called left lane bandit. it is one of the most bullshit complaints i have heard, and i firmly believe it comes from testosterone tonys and me-first macho boys with a sense of entitlement that they are somehow more important than other drivers: "LEAVE THAT LEFT LANE OPEN FOR ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!"

*BRING BACK PHOTO RADAR AND MAKE IT A BLATANT CASH GRAB!!! A VOLUNTARY TAX ON ARROGANT, CALLOUS DRIVERS*

-dh


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

david henman said:


> we have 3,000 deaths and 250,000 injuries annually on our highways. i defy anyone to prove that even one of those incidents was caused directly by this mythical left lane bandit. i'll even go so far as to challenge anyone to explain how they, personally, have been "inconvenienced" by a so-called left lane bandit. it is one of the most bullshit complaints i have heard, and i firmly believe it comes from testosterone tonys and me-first macho boys with a sense of entitlement that they are somehow more important than other drivers: "LEAVE THAT LEFT LANE OPEN FOR ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!"
> 
> 
> -dh


If I had to take a wild guess, I would say about 25% of the high speed accidents that happen in the other lanes.

How often have you seen a bandit in the left lane abbruptly slam on their brakes to foil the speed demon behind them? Extreamly dangerous and stupid. The left lane bandits are just as bad as the testosterone tonys, as their egos cause the faster drivers to invade the lanes which are normally occupied by the more patient and relaxed drivers, and increase the danger to inocent drivers. 

Slower traffic keep left. It just makes sense. Why tempt fate?


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

It is illegal to drive in the left hand lane on the Autobahn unless you are overtaking another car. Of course there are people that commute at 200 mph (in the proper zones) so they are always overtaking. The Autobahn has way lower death and injury stats than the highways of Canada. Besides most car accidents happen on roads other than highways. The media has blown it all up to show how fast driving is the cause, but the reality is that following too close, and not paying attention, and driver error are the leading causes of accidents. Its no wonder that intersections are the most dangerous places on the road and accont for most accidents, its because thats the area where drivers have to make decisions. The fact is Canadian drivers are poor at best becuase they are taught poorly, drive on crappy roads that are not properly monitored or maintained, and fill their driving with distractions. To drive fast is very easy to do, it doesnt involve testosterone at all, anyone can do it. To drive safely at fast speeds requires alot of things and testosterone isnt one of them. It would actually hinder your driving, as testosterone makes you agressive and antsy. All race car drivers are as calm as hindu cows when they race. If you cant get to that state, youre not going to do well...........


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

*If I had to take a wild guess, I would say about 25% of the high speed accidents that happen in the other lanes.*

...you're right, that's a _wild guess_. stats would be just a tad more convincing.

*How often have you seen a bandit in the left lane abbruptly slam on their brakes to foil the speed demon behind them?*

...not once. i drive 50,000 km per year, and have crossed the country several times. again, not once. ever.

*Extreamly dangerous and stupid. The left lane bandits are just as bad as the testosterone tonys, as their egos cause the faster drivers to invade the lanes which are normally occupied by the more patient and relaxed drivers, and increase the danger to inocent drivers. *

...fyi, they don't "cause" anyone to do anything. no one can force you, or me, or anyone else, to drive dangerously. 

*Slower traffic keep left. It just makes sense. Why tempt fate?*

...couldn't agree more. but on the grand scale of highway carnage and misery, left lane bandits rate about one out of a hundred, or less.

and yet, whenever these discussions come up, they are number one. 

in the context of death and injury on our highways, that is called "denial".

-dh


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> It is illegal to drive in the left hand lane on the Autobahn unless you are overtaking another car. Of course there are people that commute at 200 mph (in the proper zones) so they are always overtaking. The Autobahn has way lower death and injury stats than the highways of Canada. Besides most car accidents happen on roads other than highways. The media has blown it all up to show how fast driving is the cause, but the reality is that following too close, and not paying attention, and driver error are the leading causes of accidents. Its no wonder that intersections are the most dangerous places on the road and accont for most accidents, its because thats the area where drivers have to make decisions. The fact is Canadian drivers are poor at best becuase they are taught poorly, drive on crappy roads that are not properly monitored or maintained, and fill their driving with distractions. To drive fast is very easy to do, it doesnt involve testosterone at all, anyone can do it. To drive safely at fast speeds requires alot of things and testosterone isnt one of them. It would actually hinder your driving, as testosterone makes you agressive and antsy. All race car drivers are as calm as hindu cows when they race. If you cant get to that state, youre not going to do well...........




...just one question: given that driving is inherently dangerous, and given the incredible daily carnage on our highways, what, exactly, is your hurry?

the point of driving is to get from point A to point B.

despite what the media, the car manufacturers and the testosterone tonys would have you believe, *it is not a sport*.

incidentally, the media to whom you refer usually play down speed as a major cause of highway carnage.

it is the police who play it up but, hey, what do they know...

-dh


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Main Entry: in·her·ent 
Pronunciation: -&nt
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin inhaerent-, inhaerens, present participle of inhaerEre
: involved in the constitution or essential character of something : belonging by nature or habit : INTRINSIC <risks inherent in the venture> 
- in·her·ent·ly adverb 

If you believe danger is an essential part of driving, you may in fact be the problem.........


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Main Entry: in·her·ent
> Pronunciation: -&nt
> Function: adjective
> Etymology: Latin inhaerent-, inhaerens, present participle of inhaerEre
> ...



....3,000 deaths, and 250,000 injuries annually. US stats are significantly worse.

perhaps you believe this is no big deal. it seems the vast majority of the population agrees with you.

i don't.

-dh



"If you believe danger is an essential part of driving, you may in fact be the problem..." - Accept2

"I speed all the time...Once I was pulled over doing 100 over the limit...." - Accept2


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

Once again I find the responses interesting.

It would seem no one agrees with me about having more cops on patrol.

Oh well, I'm using to being a "contrarian"!

I just refuse to call anyone nasty names over it.:smile:

:food-smiley-004:


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> Once again I find the responses interesting.
> It would seem no one agrees with me about having more cops on patrol.



...that's one of those things that i think virtually everyone agrees on, but to which no one (hello, politicians!) listens.

i keep hearing that canada has a surplus economy and we can afford tax cuts. surely that must mean that we can afford to fix medicare, solve poverty and get more police on the streets and highways, right?

-dh


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

david henman said:


> *If I had to take a wild guess, I would say about 25% of the high speed accidents that happen in the other lanes.*
> 
> ...you're right, that's a _wild guess_. stats would be just a tad more convincing.


I agree with you whole heartedly on that those who are racing down the highway are putting everyone's life at risk, and that there are people out there driving way beyond their abilities. Just about anyone can drive fast in a clear lane, but through traffic into the picture and you get carnage. It gets much worse when you consider that those people driving in the lanes other than the left one are not anticipating getting hit from behind at a high rate of speed.

The left lane, on some highways, is like a bad neighborhood, if you don't need to go there it is best just to stay out of it.

It is just a wild guess, but I rarely see people speeding in the right lanes, unless they are going along with the flow of traffic. Forcing a driver that is allready going too fast into traffic just seems like a bad idea. I know they aren't being forced, but you pretty much know that they are going to change lanes rather than slow down if they can help it.




david henman said:


> *How often have you seen a bandit in the left lane abbruptly slam on their brakes to foil the speed demon behind them?*
> 
> ...not once. i drive 50,000 km per year, and have crossed the country several times. again, not once. ever.


I do about the same. Along the 401 between TO and Hamilton and along the QEW I see it a few times a week. There are some people that have comfort zones that extend way beyond a car length or two around their cars. The people that do this seem to be paying too much attention to what is going on behind them and not watching what is happening in front of them.

My personal favorite left lane bandits are the ones that purposely pull over slightly off the road to the left so they spit gravel at the car behind them. Sooner or later the guy in back catches up with him or pulls him over. Those must be interesting conversations.




david henman said:


> *Slower traffic keep left. It just makes sense. Why tempt fate?*
> 
> ...couldn't agree more. but on the grand scale of highway carnage and misery, left lane bandits rate about one out of a hundred, or less.
> 
> ...


I agree, that those who are driving recklessly are responsible for their own actions, but throwing a wrench into an allready dangerous situation isn't helping anyone.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Hamm Guitars said:


> My personal favorite left lane bandits are the ones that purposely pull over slightly off the road to the left so they spit gravel at the car behind them. Sooner or later the guy in back catches up with him or pulls him over. Those must be interesting conversations.



...i'd like to hear both sides of that story. 

on the highways, the drivers who get most upset about so-called left lane bandits are the ones that come screaming up behind them at speeds of 140-170 plus, when the so-called left lane bandit is _already_ doing 120 (in ontario).

for those clowns, i have zero sympathy. but i have a feeling that _they_ are the ones calling into the talk radio programs to complain long and loud that left lane bandits are the scourge of highway driving.

-dh


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Hamm Guitars said:


> It is just a wild guess, but I rarely see people speeding in the right lanes, unless they are going along with the flow of traffic.



...take a closer look next time traffic is congested. i promise you, you will see a lone male driver, in either a vw or bmw, screaming down the outside (right) lane or on off ramp, thinking that for some reason he deserves to get ahead of everyone else.

-dh


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## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

Wow this has been an interesting thread to watch for sure. I see the autobahn being brought up in here from time to time. Agreed it works well in Germany as it is policed and enforced to the max, but it should also be pointed out if we went that way (German regs etc.) over half the cars in Canada would not be allowed on the roads as they wouldn't pass inspections.

Here on ther prairies you see alot of speeding on the highways, good flat straight roads, but what makes me nervous is when roads conditions change, with heavy rain or snow etc and people don't adjust their driving for it. I travel 90 miles round trip to work every day. Last winter I've never seen as many cars in the ditches as there was then. People exceeding their abilities and the road conditions.


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

david henman said:


> ...take a closer look next time traffic is congested. i promise you, you will see a lone male driver, in either a vw or bmw, screaming down the outside (right) lane or on off ramp, thinking that for some reason he deserves to get ahead of everyone else.
> 
> -dh


I think I listed that as one of my pet peeves listed in another thread.

Andy


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...i'd like to hear both sides of that story.
> 
> on the highways, the drivers who get most upset about so-called left lane bandits are the ones that come screaming up behind them at speeds of 140-170 plus, when the so-called left lane bandit is _already_ doing 120 (in ontario).
> 
> ...


I think there's a trust issue in here, David. You're right that there are many dangerous and speeding drivers on Ontario highways. The difference seems to be over how to correct the situation.

Some of us call for more cops and some of us call for machines like photo radar. Photo radar truly reveals the split in confidence over our governments. You see, there are many of us that are absolutely sure it will be just a money grab. We are positive that photo radar will be set up at natural speed traps far more often than at dangerous stretches of highway. Sadly, during the time we had photo radar I swear I saw exactly that many times around Toronto!

We think that the machines will be set to 5 kms over, in order to get the most number of tickets.

And we don't believe the government will spend a dime of photo radar fines in hiring more police officers to patrol the highways, catching those idiots who merge or pass in a dangerous manner.

I think the last time we had any trust in governments and most other institutions was about the time of the Meech Lake Accord and the imposition of the GST.

The conflict is not so much in penalizing dangerous drivers but rather what is the best method to do such.

It's the same with issues like gun control. Mayor Miller says the solution to guns and deaths (often of innocents) on the streets is to have the feds ban handguns. Gee, that oughta work about as well as banning drugs! It would punish legal owners while doing nothing to those who use guns illegally.

My brotherinlaw the cop tells me that you can walk into just about any bar in Hamilton and in half an hour have bought a handgun for a few hundred dollars. I doubt if it's any different in Toronto or any other city.

If you read the last Gun Control Act from the Chretien days you'll see that it doesn't add one day to a jail sentence for using a handgun in a crime. At one point it sorta sounds like it, until you realise that it's not mandatory for a judge so the charge can be either plea bargained away or served concurrent with any other conviction, meaning at the same time.

I guess what I'm saying is that to me and many others it seems like we only keep screwing around the problems. Why not put more cops on the road and if they catch a speeder way over the limit throw him in jail for a few weeks or months? If they catch some monkeyshines who waved a gun at Appu the QuickiMart store operator then give him a mandatory 5 years for even having the gun. If he had fired it then give him 20 years!

If that speeder had caused a fatal accident why not charge him with murder?

Sadly, it never seems to happen. We just force everyone to slow to a crawl to avoid nuisance tickets and legal responsible owners to hand in their guns!

Why as a society do we REFUSE to go after the real offenders??!!

We seem to have some screwy priorities...

Anyhow, folks seem to have forgotten that photoradar was one of the issues that swept Harris in the first time. Now I'm hearing talking heads on the radio spouting polls claiming that a majority of citizens have changed their mind and support it.

Maybe so, I can't say. I'd just love to see McGuinty stake his job on it! I'm betting he knows it would still cost him an election. More likely, he'll shut up about it until and unless he wins. THEN he'll put it in and hope that in four years until the next election the resentment will have died down and he won't pay a price for it, while getting some votes from those who always were in favour!

He IS a politician, after all!

:food-smiley-004:


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

....................deleted


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

........deleted


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

*Some of us call for more cops and some of us call for machines like photo radar. Photo radar truly reveals the split in confidence over our governments. You see, there are many of us that are absolutely sure it will be just a money grab. *

...an excellent one, in my opinion.

i agree that it has to be employed sensibly. however, the argument is generally that, since it has been used improperly, it therefore does not work. where's the logic?

*It's the same with issues like gun control. Mayor Miller says the solution to guns and deaths (often of innocents) on the streets is to have the feds ban handguns. Gee, that oughta work about as well as banning drugs! It would punish legal owners while doing nothing to those who use guns illegally.*

...again, guns are part of the problem, NOT part of the solution. americans believe that guns ARE part of the solution. a quick look at their stats proves the exact opposite. as long as we prioritize legal gun ownership over human life, the body count will continue. hey, we don't dare impose upon legal gun owners! however, that is the subject of an entirely different thread....

*
I guess what I'm saying is that to me and many others it seems like we only keep screwing around the problems. Why not put more cops on the road and if they catch a speeder way over the limit throw him in jail for a few weeks or months? If they catch some monkeyshines who waved a gun at Appu the QuickiMart store operator then give him a mandatory 5 years for even having the gun. If he had fired it then give him 20 years!*

...i couldn't agree more. those two rich kids that killed a taxi driver on mount pleasant last year because they were racing their parents luxury cars will not serve one day in jail.

*If that speeder had caused a fatal accident why not charge him with murder?*

...absolutely! in this country we punish the victim of crime and concern ourselves with the rights of the perpetrator.

*
Sadly, it never seems to happen. We just force everyone to slow to a crawl to avoid nuisance tickets and legal responsible owners to hand in their guns!*

...not exactly. i drive at 120 kmh, 20 km over the speed limit. i am one of the slowest drivers on any of the 400 series of highways. and, hey, we wouldn't want to inconvenience legal gun owners just because people are getting killed..

*Why as a society do we REFUSE to go after the real offenders??!!
We seem to have some screwy priorities...*

...again, i agree.

*Anyhow, folks seem to have forgotten that photoradar was one of the issues that swept Harris in the first time. Now I'm hearing talking heads on the radio spouting polls claiming that a majority of citizens have changed their mind and support it.*

...many people are _finally_ fed up with drivers who think that the roads are their personal racetracks.

*Maybe so, I can't say. I'd just love to see McGuinty stake his job on it! I'm betting he knows it would still cost him an election. More likely, he'll shut up about it until and unless he wins. THEN he'll put it in and hope that in four years until the next election the resentment will have died down and he won't pay a price for it, while getting some votes from those who always were in favour!*
...cars are a religion/cult/fetish/obsession in north america. you will have no problem finding people who can rationalize, defend or justify cars and speed. but, try bringing up the stats on highway carnage in any gathering and see if you can find even one person willing to discuss it, much less give a damn. we believe our cars to be of far greater importance than human life.

thus, you open the "wheels" section of the toronto star to discover every editor, columnist, contributor and letter writer clamouring for higher speed limits and a crackdown on left lane bandits.

you're right, bill, we humans have screwy priorities..

-dh


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## Guest (Jul 31, 2007)

On Topic
Driver error is the leading cause of car accidents... the sooner they are removed from the equation all together, the better. I for one cannot WAIT for highway travel to be automated.

Off Topic
There's no reason why a person who is NOT in the military, or not a police officer needs a gun.. and even they ONLY need their guns when they are on the job. The gun (indeed all weapons) has NO place in civilized society... 

Both Topics
Won't it be nice to live in one, someday.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...cars are a religion/cult/fetish/obsession in north america. you will have no problem finding people who can rationalize, defend or justify cars and speed. but, try bringing up the stats on highway carnage in any gathering and see if you can find even one person willing to discuss it, much less give a damn. we believe our cars to be of far greater importance than human life.



Well, I knew if we poked around we'd find that we actually agreed on most points, David!:smile:

I agreed with most of your points but didn't want a long quote. I also agree that many folks have a car fetish. I never had because I was born just a few years too late. I learned to drive on my older friends' muscle cars but just a few years later when I was ready to buy my own OPEC had changed the world and everybody was scrapping the big engines in favour of little "boxes of crap".

I mean, when you took your licence on your buddy's 396 Chevelle SS convertible, with a 4 speed Muncie close ratio manual trannie, how could you ever enjoy the lameass, girly-man low powered cars that followed? A car to me became simply utility. I had a lot of fun in vans and a long stretch in a Rabbit convertible but I could never again get all wigged out over a car.

Still, I suspect much of the speed problem is very simple. We have an insane number of people crammed onto too few lanes, 'cuz they all commute to Toronto for a job but can't afford to live there!

I saw this trend occur in the late 80's and early 90's. We began to lose a LOT of jobs in Hamilton, particularly in the manufacturing sector. I dunno if it was free trade or just the way the world was going but it sure was obvious it was happening. So people went to Toronto for a job but they couldn't afford the loss on their house price against costs in more expensive Toronto. Besides, often the missus worked and didn't want to have to commute the other way.

Politicians held study after study. Useless, of course. Every morning you can see cars jammed up the QEW for miles to get OUT of Hamilton! You've got open highway coming back. At supper time we see the reverse. Who needs a study?

We should be trying to encourage businesses to locate outside of the GTA but in 30 years I haven't seen much success. Brantford has grown a bit but Hamilton and Niagara Region are still mired in 70's style approaches. I know people who were commuting from Niagara on the Lake to Don Mills every day. As far as I know they still are. With the commute times and the inevitable demands for overtime (usually unpaid in non-union jobs) it makes for a long day, with not much time for family matters.

So we've got all these rats crammed into a little corridor in the maze. Is it any wonder some of them go screwy? When some idiot nearly kills you with an improper merge or lane change it's only human for fear to turn to rage. Any one who has had that happen knows it can be very hard to keep your cool. Rage is wrong of course but we have to fight human instinct and not all of us are as good at that as others.

I hope no one wants to mention public transit. It's not very practical for most commuters from Hamilton. Unless you have a job right beside Union Station it's a longer commute than with a car! Besides, Hamilton doesn't even have a GO train station.

Making people go slower will just mean they hit things at a slower speed. We'll probably have MORE accidents due to increased frustration with even longer commute times! People have very good reasons to be frustrated on the highways. Of course it's then even more important for them to keep their cool but I don't see how we can always keep a lid on things. Especially when there's damn few cops to catch the idiots, at any speed! 

Can you imagine how someone would feel if they had been watching idiots get away with dangerous and careless driving techniques every workday for years and instead of more policing all that they get is themselves hit with a photo radar ticket for being 11kms over the limit? Does anyone seriously think this will help build confidence in our governments looking out for us?

I don't see us reducing road rage but rather breeding it!




david henman said:


> thus, you open the "wheels" section of the toronto star to discover every editor, columnist, contributor and letter writer clamouring for higher speed limits and a crackdown on left lane bandits.
> 
> you're right, bill, we humans have screwy priorities..
> 
> -dh


Well, I buy a Hamilton Spectator and a Post every day, David. I get the Sunday Sun regularly. I gave up on the Star years ago. It seemed from my point of view that it was too predictable. Every page just seemed to say "Liberals all good! Everybody else all bad!"

Every paper has a bias but the Star's just seemed too strong for me.

Besides, the Sun and the Star are both Toronto papers and Toronto is like a different planet to me. I don't think it should be just a separate province. It should be another country! Toronto seems to me to have very little in common culturally with the rest of Ontario. Queens Park knows it needs the Toronto vote but the rest of us often see little point in even bothering to vote when Toronto will always win a shoving match.

Just my POV!

:food-smiley-004:


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