# Dr. Z's - Why are they double the cost?



## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

Can anyone comment on what these offer in value for their $2K-ish plus bracket? Rocket parts? Silk covered wire?
What speakers/transformers do they use? Needless to say, I've never tried one.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

J-75 said:


> Can anyone comment on what these offer in value for their $2K-ish plus bracket? Rocket parts? Silk covered wire?
> What speakers/transformers do they use? Needless to say, I've never tried one.



I tried a couple. Then I bought one. It didn't seem overly expensive to me. I think I paid around $1500. USD for a lightly used (perfect shape) Maz 38 SR combo (2 X 10 38 watt w reverb).

It sounds like a FenderMarshall to me. Lots of clean headroom and VERY touch sensitive.

I like it a lot. Truthfully though I haven't gigged it so I haven't really pushed it yet. That's (so they say) when you really hear what these amps can do.


----------



## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

I had Dr Z Remedy for a while, really liked it. They're nice sounding/feeling amps. Hand-made, which adds to the price.

I traded it in because I missed that Marshall kerrang and I needed more headroom and punch. But it was a great amp for what it did.


----------



## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Once you get into hand wired, boutique amp territory, Z's are actually on the lower end of the scale.


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

When I first heard a Stang Ray I wanted one and when I actually played through one I immediately freed up some cash to buy one. I managed to find one locally for half the price of new and it was in awesome shape less the tubes. I find the sound very punchy, touchy and clear across the whole sound scape. I was really impressed with the tight bass response and fantastic sounding natural tube breakup. This has been my favorite amp that I've owned to date.


----------



## stratman89 (Oct 13, 2008)

Roryfan said:


> Once you get into hand wired, boutique amp territory, Z's are actually on the lower end of the scale.


This is very true. If you start to look at all the other top boutique amp builders and their pricing you will find this out.

I currently have a Dr. Z Remedy and also had a Maz 18............killer amps.


----------



## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

I have a Route 66 that is my main gigging amp, it was about $1600 for head and 112 cab. Worth it IMO but you have to try one to see if its your thing. Most people who play through mine "get it" pretty quickly, some don't, it depends on your playing style and the sound you're going for.


----------



## NB_Terry (Feb 2, 2006)

They're wired by hand with premium parts in North America rather than using circuit boards wired in Mexico or Asia. 

As soon as North American labour is involved it costs more than overseas work. 

Zs are very well made amps that will last many years.


----------



## switters (Dec 19, 2011)

I've got a Maz 38NR head. I think you can pick these up used now for like, 1100-1200 bucks. Hand wired, reliable amplifier.... I think for what you get it's priced very reasonably....

I remember talking to someone in Halifax at a large instrument retailer...we were discussing the Dr. Z they happened to have on the floor... he said he loves selling Z's, because they're the only amp they regularly deal with that actually leaves the store and stays gone.... they never come back.... Mesa's, Marshalls, Fenders, Vox.... they're always out then back in...... never has to deal with a broken or returned Z. 

I think that says an awful lot. 

That and I've had the absolute best of customer service from them over the last nearly 10 years I've owned the amp. Any problem I've had with the amp has been tube related......

Unless you need something really out of the ordinary, I don't think you could pick up a better amp for the money.


----------



## TeleZee (Nov 10, 2008)

I bought a brand new Maz Junior 2 x 10 combo in 2006...it is my go to amp every gig. Super quality build, does have lots of headroom, great club amp, plenty loud. It always starts out fairly clean and grows a little hair midway thru the night.
Only complaint is that the 2 x 10 combo is nearly 50 LBS...I wish I bought a head and cab to split the load. I paid $1495.00 new in '06 whwn a MArshall 1974X was well over $2000. Great value.


----------



## flashPUNK (Feb 16, 2006)

My remedy cost $1350 plus tax from L&M. Worth every penny in my opinion!


----------



## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I think that it's all been mentioned as to why these are great amps at relatively reasonable prices.

For what you're getting, they're a deal.
The two heads that I picked up in here used, would have left me short of a Two Rock head.
The Maz 18 and Maz 8 that I have are superb amps.

The combos with the Celestion Blue are upcharged for the premium speaker.

It's all relative. 8)


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

J-75 said:


> Can anyone comment on what these offer in value for their $2K-ish plus bracket? Rocket parts? Silk covered wire?
> What speakers/transformers do they use? Needless to say, I've never tried one.


I'd just like to point out that $2K+ is the price range of just about any Rectifier or Mark series Mesa Boogie as well


----------



## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

Budda said:


> I'd just like to point out that $2K+ is the price range of just about any Rectifier or Mark series Mesa Boogie as well


Perhaps, but $2K is pretty much the roof of the _entire_ Fender fleet, (short of a VK and 1 or 2 others). Also, it seems that most owners of Z's have purchased them used - those sub-$2K prices cannot be compared with new stuff of other brands. The emphasis on 'hand-wired' is implying _quality_ of some degree. There is no real relationship between hand-wired (aka point-to-point) wiring, versus PCB machine-assembled circuits, as far as quality is concerned, _*if*_ the Q/A controls are in place. Component selection, post-assembly testing, and examination are the deciding criteria.
My question was intended to be focused on sonic quality, not so much reliability, or customer support.
Why would I wish to spend $2K-plus on new Z gear when I've eclipsed the sweet spot on premium Fender stuff such as DRRI, Super Reverb, Twin Reverb, etc.? I believe that if you start with clean, you can add dirt with pedals, but no one has yet invented a 'clean' pedal AFAIK, so MESA's, et al, don't do anything for me.
When you hear Fender clean, it's hard to imagine anything cleaner.


----------



## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

In my humble opinion, it's all a matter of humble opinion. To some, clean is clean, so lets just get on and play. To others, certain amps have specific nuances that they like to play to. For example, I know players that insist that alnico speaker magets contribute a great deal to how they play but I'm afraid I just don't hear it the way that they do.

That being said, I have been through many different amps even in the same brand to find the type of sound I was looking for. I've rejected amps others swear by. I now have what I was looking for. Why? I guess I can't really describe it without also describing the amps I've rejected. Go figure.


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Fender amps are like Boss pedals, you see and hear them everywhere but some folks prefer to start with em and usually move up and on, although they are a go to for so many live venues. Still, I find a high percentage of what I've tried and played from current production Fender leaves something to be desired whereas a Dr. Z sounds awesome to me right from the get go. When I've bought used Fenders, and I've only bought them used, it's well below what new cost is and that says to me they depreciate quicker than a Z does, it's kinda like the Boss pedals again, $120 new means $40 to $60 used. The other thing is you can find them anywhere at anytime whereas a Z is far and few on the used market, plus they don't last long. So then when I get a Fender home and I start thinking what needs modding because I feel like something is missing sound wise I open it up and replace with parts that come stock on a Z and on a point to point if anything needs fixing even with my limited knowledge I can figure it out but a PCB amp often makes it tougher. Mass production, sketchy Q&C, garbage bottom of the barrel tubes all pushed by a name that is an established cash cow but the vintage Fender stuff, that's clearly a different story.

I don't want completely put out stock Fenders as most usually have great cleans and I do believe this is where they shine. I use a Fender mostly for a clean sound but modded the tone stack and caps, etc. for a slightly more appealing to me tone. I did find that pushing the amp and using some pedals made me want to further mod it, so I did that as well eventually and I'm very happy with it. Another thing, I'm not a high gain guy but I really did like the Lonestar Special and the Mark 5 from Mesa. They both had really great chimey cleans and I held onto the Mark for a while but eventually got tired of the million options and not suiting my taste in drives.


----------



## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

Picked up a Z-Wreck - sounds really good. worth every penny.


----------



## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


----------



## jmb2 (May 18, 2009)

Dr Z Amps. Small shop. Custom designed and built in Maple Heights, Ohio. Lotsa care, attention and tone are loaded into each one _imho_. Have had the good fortune to visit there several times in the past few years. My first Z amp was a Z-28 head with 210 cab - still at the core of my sound, 5 years and counting.

Mike Zaite (_*Dr Z*_) has taken many of the "classic" Fender/Marshall/Vox tones and put his spin on things. Ironically, as a former drummer, he seems to have a sense of sound - tonally and volume-wise - that has resulted in a line-up that probably has 15-20 amp models in production .... from the Mini Z all the way up to the Z-Wreck. EL84s, EL34s, 6V6s, 6L6s, and even KT66s play a part in the good Dr's sonic soundscape. Each one of 'em unique enough. Each one of 'em special enough that I would buy the whole collection if the lottery ever cooperated ....

Compared to other amps - including Marshall, Mesa, PRS, Victoria, etc etc etc .... still a good bang for the buck.

Just my .02, ymmv, imho, etc etc etc

cheers always,

Joel


----------



## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

Victoria's another one. What are they doing to Fender circuits that's worth twice the money?


----------



## TubeStack (Jul 16, 2009)

J-75 said:


> ...The emphasis on 'hand-wired' is implying quality of some degree...


No, just that the extra labour involved increases the price.


----------



## Basementhack (Jan 25, 2009)

J-75 said:


> Perhaps, but $2K is pretty much the roof of the _entire_ Fender fleet, (short of a VK and 1 or 2 others). Also, it seems that most owners of Z's have purchased them used - those sub-$2K prices cannot be compared with new stuff of other brands. The emphasis on 'hand-wired' is implying _quality_ of some degree. There is no real relationship between hand-wired (aka point-to-point) wiring, versus PCB machine-assembled circuits, as far as quality is concerned, _*if*_ the Q/A controls are in place. Component selection, post-assembly testing, and examination are the deciding criteria.My question was intended to be focused on sonic quality, not so much reliability, or customer support.Why would I wish to spend $2K-plus on new Z gear when I've eclipsed the sweet spot on premium Fender stuff such as DRRI, Super Reverb, Twin Reverb, etc.? I believe that if you start with clean, you can add dirt with pedals, but no one has yet invented a 'clean' pedal AFAIK, so MESA's, et al, don't do anything for me.When you hear Fender clean, it's hard to imagine anything cleaner.


Not one purchased used :smilie_flagge17:












But seriously, there are those that would pay the extra $ for service, perceived quality gains, etc. It's not always abou the sound. As well, as far as the price of the Z's go there are pretty reasobale compared to, say, a two Rock (some heads alone almost $6,000), etc.Keith


----------



## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Basementhack said:


> Not one purchased used :smilie_flagge17:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Brad Paisley?

Is that you?

LOL. Nice collection. I've owned 4 different models and still have the first one I bought in 1999, a Maz JR 2x10. Every one was superb.


----------



## jmb2 (May 18, 2009)

J-75 said:


> Victoria's another one. What are they doing to Fender circuits that's worth twice the money?


Aint sure what the answer is .... but I dig the way they sound ..... had I not found Dr Z Amps first, I'd prolly be all-in for the 35310, 35210 and/or 35115 (and a coupla other models in the Victoria line-up) ....

cheers always,

Joel


----------



## jmb2 (May 18, 2009)

Basementhack said:


> Not one purchased used :smilie_flagge17:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


.... so .... you like 'em in *RE*D .... dude!!! :rockon:

cheers always,

Joel


----------



## voxworld (Feb 9, 2006)

I think Z's and Victoria's are for people who can hear the difference. If you can't, it really would be a total waste of your money.


----------



## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

voxworld said:


> I think Z's and Victoria's are for people who can hear the difference. If you can't, it really would be a total waste of your money.


+1 Amen to that brother.


----------



## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

J-75 said:


> The emphasis on 'hand-wired' is implying _quality_ of some degree. There is no real relationship between hand-wired (aka point-to-point) wiring, versus PCB machine-assembled circuits, as far as quality is concerned, _*if*_ the Q/A controls are in place.


well that's like saying my coat would be red, if it wasn't so blue. the reality is, the hand wired stuff almost always comes from someone who is ALREADY taking the time to do things proper. much of the time the tube socket mounted on greenboard amps are getting shoved out the factory door as quickly as possible, by a team of assemblers who are doing a job. the atmosphere at the fender factory, vs. the atmosphere at a place making a hand wired amps are far different, i guarantee.
those people don't care what they're making. might as well be a ham radio for all they care. and when it comes time to do repairs, the hand wired one will be easier to repair every single time. my vht is all point to point. you can buy them on amazon for $400 incl shipping. compare it to the closest fender. not only is it half the price, but it's a better amp all the way around. know why? because soooo many people follow the branding before any other factor. they line up to pay to much so they can recieve less. all because of the belief that if the branding is so good, the product must be the best too. there are many examples of this principle at work in other areas. right now hyundai is putting out far more reliable cars with just as many features as toyota. toyota remains quagmired in recalls. yet you'll find camrys in far more places than elantras


----------



## numb41 (Jul 13, 2009)

I think you just have to try a couple. They have a different sound than anything else I've used. They have almost a three dimensional output to them that's hard to explain. I've owned two (Maz 38 Sr w Reverb and currently a Prescription Jr), and although they're different, they share some similar tonal qualities that I haven't heard from other manufacturers.


----------



## b-nads (Apr 9, 2010)

You have to let your ears decide. The Maz 18 R that I tried last year is still probably my favorite sounding amp I've ever played through - for a reference, my current main amp is a Valvetrain Trenton 2 - ptp wiring, tube rectified, bigger cab, so pretty significant upgrades over the original Trenton and the Savannah I had. IT sounds great, and does a pretty sweet BF and Tweed Fender thing based on the settings you use. That being said, the Maz18, would totally be worth the $500 more than the msrp on my Valvetrain if I have the cash available when I bought it. Now, is it worth the amount more that I actually paid for my Valvetrain to me - no.


----------



## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

cheezyridr said:


> well that's like saying my coat would be red, if it wasn't so blue. the reality is, the hand wired stuff almost always comes from someone who is ALREADY taking the time to do things proper. much of the time the tube socket mounted on greenboard amps are getting shoved out the factory door as quickly as possible, by a team of assemblers who are doing a job. the atmosphere at the fender factory, vs. the atmosphere at a place making a hand wired amps are far different, i guarantee.
> those people don't care what they're making. might as well be a ham radio for all they care. and when it comes time to do repairs, the hand wired one will be easier to repair every single time. my vht is all point to point. you can buy them on amazon for $400 incl shipping. compare it to the closest fender. not only is it half the price, but it's a better amp all the way around. know why? because soooo many people follow the branding before any other factor. they line up to pay to much so they can recieve less. all because of the belief that if the branding is so good, the product must be the best too. there are many examples of this principle at work in other areas. right now hyundai is putting out far more reliable cars with just as many features as toyota. toyota remains quagmired in recalls. yet you'll find camrys in far more places than elantras


The perception that 'hand wired' is performed by individuals doing things 'proper' as opposed to 'assemblers doing a job' is what I referred to as 'implying quality'.
People doing hand wiring _are_ assembling - they can do it right, or they can do it wrong. It depends on the degree of training they've had, fatigue, etc. and _the level of quality control applied to the process_. They are_not _a team of electrical engineers or rocket scientists. They are assembly-line workers paid at an hourly rate, following a wiring diagram. In Leo's day, they were mostly trained hispanic women. I've worked in environments like this. The women are skilled assemblers, but they haven't a clue about electronics, and occasionally, they make mistakes, and _that_ was in a military aerospace application.

PCB production lends itself to automation - most of the parts are stuffed, soldered & trimmed by machine. This can go really right, or it can go really wrong as well, but in larger numbers either way. Again, quality control makes the difference - the machines have to be correctly adjusted, and calibrated.
An example of proper quality control in mass consumer electronics is the iPad. There is likely no 'hand-anything' involved with _that_ assembly process, and in the quantities being produced, even a minute failure rate would produce a lot of toxic land-fill. That's where process and quality control is working well, and... wait... the words we hate, - it's "offshore" too!

PCB's are usually machine-tested before final assembly, and higher-end amp models are given a quick final inspection by a real person. Unfortunately, as we all know, amps only go wrong after some extended period of use - thermal & mechanical shock, humidity, power, load, user error/abuse, etc.

A lot of product quality relies on component selection. There's no joy in putting together a product using cheap parts that are known to be unreliable. (Does the name 'Lucas Electrics' ring any bells out there for some of you?) The Fender Hot Rods have suffered a somewhat bad rep, partly due to notorious component failure involving a handful of parts, which (I might be wrong here), was mostly the fault of under-spec'ing the parts in the design & layout, rather than their source of manufacture. Also, there's a knowledge, (or a suspicion, at least), that alloys used in components and solders aren't what they used to be, due to economy, or health legislation, or both. Unreliable bonding is more common today - I know this first-hand from several brands and experiences.

Leo used to field-test his prototypes to expose the deficiencies, before going to production. That step was obviously missed in the Hot Rods, even if it is still practiced at all anymore.
Still, the 'reference standards' commonly cited to this day in describing amps, still use terms like "tweed", "bassman" and "blackface".

Re:The Hyundai versus Toyota analogy vis-a-vis 'more for your buck'; wouldn't it suggest that Dr Z, Victoria, et al, should in fact, be _less expensive_ than Fender, no?


----------



## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


----------



## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

If your Iphone was made in a shop of a handful of people in the US, how much would that cost?

They're a better amp than a production line unit, parts and QC.
They're at the bottom of that genre of amps, price wise.
What more is there to say? You still don't seem to be convinced, try one.


----------



## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I own Fender and Dr. Z, love em both! They each have a use and it's different but in the end I prefer my Z to anything I own or owned. I have the confidence in the name and amp that it will last me a long time and sound good doing it, I don't mind paying the extra money for that even if it's all in my head. I was in a shop just the other day, one Z, twenty-two Fenders so not a fair comparison but looking over just even the finish I could see exposed plywood on the front of a Fender amp where Tolex should be covering it instead it's been applied sideways looking terrible but its up for sale, full price. As for the PCB part, the Fender green board is one of the worst I've ever had the pleasure of working on, just cheap and incredibly unfriendly to service or mod. I was a part of making my own PCB's for pedals with a friend and it's actually pretty easy, I can say I made better stuff then Fender with a computer printer, iron and a jar of acid. Another thing that put me off back in the day, I had a guy show up to jam with a new off the shelf Fender amp, it lasted less then ten minutes, he actually didn't even play through it I tried it while he was setting up and the output transformer died, smoke, it was nice that warranty covered everything because I felt bad and thought he'd ask me to pay for it. Again I just want to say I like both but like the Z more because it's a better amp, it is, don't argue it just accept it.


----------



## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

see? that's what i'm talking about. the point about implied quality is who implies it. in my post, it was me implying it. 
i was going by my own experience in manufacturing. not amps, but manufacturing in general. vadsy implied quality the same way i did, only his experience applies directly to the subjects. maybe it's anecdotal but if there seems to be a pattern, then you can't very well dismiss the opinion altogether.


----------



## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

Hand-wired amps don't sound better because they are hand-wired. They (usually) sound better because they are expensive, high-end amplifiers made with premium components. It is entirely possible to make amps that use PCB yet are made in the USA, are high-quality and sound great (Mesa comes to mind). Chances are they will be just as expensive. Where I see the main difference is that when your amp breaks ten or twenty years later, chances are the hand-wired amp can be repaired by any competent tech. The PCB amp, not so sure?

I own one of those boutique hand-wired amps (Allen Old Flame) based on a simple Fender circuit (Super Reverb), though not an exact replica. I bought mine used but I think the price that they sell for new is where it should be for the quality. As for Fender making similar quality products, they do have a couple of models that compare and they are priced even higher. Fender production amps can sound good but they often feature questionable components, like the Super Sonic (not exactly a cheap amp) with its cardboard back panel.


----------



## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Probably another good point is any of the production amp builders are always looking for ways to cut costs,
mostly due to the shareholder always demanding a better return on their investment.
This usually ends up with the customer recieving less and less for their money.

Dr Z is happy where they are in the market place, no plans on any big expansion.
No offshore units to compete in the entry level market, a la Egnater.

Consistantly good quality, service (if ever needed) and a kick ass product.


----------



## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

To be clear, I only picked the Dr Z brand as a placeholder for any number of boutique amps in general. From what I gather here, they are possibly the lower end of a spectrum which extends up to Dumbles at the other end (for 30 grand, does he hand-wind his electrolytics?).

So, what is the rationale behind players, making anything from 50 bucks to 50 large a night, consistently showing up with Fenders, Marshalls, or Voxs behind them?
And the big studios - what do they stock?


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

If it came down to doing the gig with the smallest possible investment I suppose we'd all be using pods direct to PA.


Same goes with guitars.


Some things are hard to quantify.


----------



## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I'm assuming that the mainstream amps are like seeing so many BOSS pedals on pro and touring boards.
Chances are, if they go down, you can replace them in any city. That's an assumption.
Maybe it's a backline that the venue supplies is a possibility.

Many touring pros use Zs too and I bet that in those big studios, there are more than one Z there too, among others.


----------



## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


----------



## faracaster (Mar 9, 2006)

I think you ARE paying more for the perception of getting a "hand-made" amp. And that perception can drive people to spend thousands more than their neighbour who is happy with the "name" brands. 
Of course there are some reasons why that amp costs more than the mass produced versions and why that perception can be identified.....therefore tangible. 
Depending on the manufacturer you might get an amp that has been tweaked on a bench and run to make sure when you receive it, it is running at optimum performance. I don't think you get that with Fender, Peavey or Marshall. Sometimes it's parts selection and the marriage of those parts in production. There is production costs of course. It said boutique amp builder is projecting 
Do they sound better???? That is a question with as many answers as there is buyers. I'm sure any boutique amp *owner* might say "definitely", my (______) super duper amp is way better than this XXXX mass made amp. But they have already made the investment, so if there is disappointment with their purchase, their true feelings might not be known.....till they sell it at least. 
Let's put it down to this......people are all different. they hear things differently, they want to produce things differently, some prefer to take the road less traveled, some want to be exactly like their heroes, some are indifferent. There is also the factor of the..."look what I've got"...ownership syndrome. There is a market for these boutique builders. 

I for one walk in both camps. I love some Vox, Fender, Marshall etc amps AND I love some Divided by 13, Bludotone, Teixiera, etc. amps. To me they are all different from each other. They have their own sonic signature while evoking tones of classic amps. 

Sometimes though the perception of just owning a cool old amp in a certain colour or in "mint" condition.....or a un-obtainium boutique build is the PRIMARY reason why that particular amp costs as much as it does. More often than not, when I get to play that (for instance) "1966 plexi 50 watt Marshall in ultra rare alligator tolex and only 7 of these were ever made on the shady side of the factory" or it's boutique counterpart in rareness, I'm GREATLY disappointed in it's actual sound. But it commands huge dollars in the market because there are people that want to say they own one of those. I'll make the connection here (because it bugs me like crazy) to original KLON pedals. These are functional, good sounding units. Limited in what they do but, they do it well. Simple circuit, and simple to drive. Is there other pedals that do the same thing? Absolutely. Do these other pedals sound as good (or better)? Absolutely. But because they became discontinued, and the graphic was changed along the way, and a boutique "buzz", these pedals have risen from a couple of hundred dollars to now a couple of thousand. Hell, the builder has even started making them again (with a clever graphic that says he has nothing to do with the the cost of these older ones). I find that crazy. Hey if I had a drawer of them, I'd be dancin' all the way to the bank. But I wouldn't feel any different.

I will say that I think we are living in a time that is a real golden age or zenith for amp (and guitar) builders whether it be boutique or mass-produced. It's a shame not to experience as much as you can. When I purchase anything, I know it's not forever, might not even be till next month. I'm good with that. I get to play and enjoy a number of pretty cool pieces, then pass them on.


----------

