# Central Air Conditioners Help Anyone?



## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

My father's 30 year old Carrier stopped cooling the other day. The bigger company he uses came over and said it was dead and he would have to buy a new one. I don't like them ever since they stole his WW2 training Lee Endfield rifle out of the basement when they were installing a tankless hot water heater. I called another repair guy and he said it was down in coolant, charged it up and he said he can't find the leak. He thinks it will most likely hold for the rest of the season. Figures it's the valves leaking and it will cost $800 for parts and $1000 for 1 day labour.

So I have been trying to research new units. There are a bunch of them. The repair guy quoted us Payne at $3,300 installed. That is a 2 ton 13 seer economy unit. He told me Payne was the highest rated unit by Consumer's Reports. Well above the Carrier. I paid $10 to get on Consumer's Reports and it was not. It was in the bottom 40%. Carrier was in the top 4. There are also other guys selling different models.

I called a Carrier dealer and he said the Payne are much lighter and not nearly as robust as the Carrier. His price was $3100 for the same Payne, but $3800 for a 2 ton 13 seer Carrier. Again the lowest unit they make.

Another consideration is the noise. Some of the better ones by Carrier are 66db while the Payne we were quoted is rated at 76 db. The Carrier he quoted was 73db.

There is also the seer ratings. They range from 13 seer to 27 seer. Single stage and two stage. Soft start. Etc. I don't think 2 stage will work because I was told we would need a new furnace to sync with the 2 stages of the air unit.

Anyone have any insight into the different models, costs etc?


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

several options ... just refill as the unit leaks ( year to year) till the unit finally packs it in (for a cheap "fix")...
a small fee each year for a/c ... then save up over time to pay for a new unit, outright.

they are changing over the "freon" to newer and more efficient propane/butane gas units right now and you don't want to get the "older" freon style of unit ... so wait another year or two before buying the "new" unit. 

as far as the noise ... it's outside and you probably don't hear it anyway.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

@Steadfastly 

he worked in AC manufacturing for many years and knows his stuff


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

player99 said:


> My father's 30 year old Carrier stopped cooling the other day. The bigger company he uses came over and said it was dead and he would have to buy a new one. I don't like them ever since they stole his WW2 training Lee Endfield rifle out of the basement when they were installing a tankless hot water heater. I called another repair guy and he said it was down in coolant, charged it up and he said he can't find the leak. He thinks it will most likely hold for the rest of the season. Figures it's the valves leaking and it will cost $800 for parts and $1000 for 1 day labour.
> 
> So I have been trying to research new units. There are a bunch of them. The repair guy quoted us Payne at $3,300 installed. That is a 2 ton 13 seer economy unit. He told me Payne was the highest rated unit by Consumer's Reports. Well above the Carrier. I paid $10 to get on Consumer's Reports and it was not. It was in the bottom 40%. Carrier was in the top 4. There are also other guys selling different models.
> 
> ...


I have a Consumer Reports subscription. Let me know if you want me to research the top rated models.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

1SweetRide said:


> I have a Consumer Reports subscription. Let me know if you want me to research the top rated models.


Thanks, I got a 1 month subscription so I could check them out.


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

I'm an hvac guy. Seer is the energy efficiency rating.

Scrap the old one and upgrade. old r22 refrigerant is expensive and bad for the environment when its leaking out. 

3k is average cost for an ac. Higher seer rating = more $$$ 
Noise levels plays a part but isnt necessarily directly related to seer rating.

5k is crazy. Carrier do have agreements with who can sell and install their products though so the local guyu might be taking advantage of that. Trane do this as well. Part of it is the training they provide for following installation specs.

I've been installing a lot of keeprite ac's lately. No idea how they rate on consumers reports. 
Carrier are good but not double the price good. Find a happy medium between price and quality. They pretty much all have 10 yr warranties on parts.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Moosehead said:


> I'm an hvac guy. Seer is the energy efficiency rating.
> 
> Scrap the old one and upgrade. old r22 refrigerant is expensive and bad for the environment when its leaking out.
> 
> ...


Yes 5k is wrong. It was $3800. The $5k was a better model.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Moosehead said:


> I'm an hvac guy. Seer is the energy efficiency rating.
> 
> Scrap the old one and upgrade. old r22 refrigerant is expensive and bad for the environment when its leaking out.
> 
> ...


Have you worked with Carrier lately? I was told they are noticeably heavier than Payne. Are there makes/models that are better?


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

They can put some type of uv colour or dye in the system to find where it is leaking.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

I was thinking of installing central air in the spring but the wife poo poo'd it. She's regretting it now. In the meantime, I've been talking to a few people and have decided that a heat pump might be my best option. Cools in summer and heats in winter. I still have a lot of reading to do before I make any decisions.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

player99 said:


> Have you worked with Carrier lately? I was told they are noticeably heavier than Payne. Are there makes/models that are better?


Why does the weight matter? It will be sitting on a support and you won't be lugging it to picnics.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

I went with a thermo pump/heat pump 6 years ago. Perfect system. Cool in the summer and heats till -15 then my furnance takes over. 30% economy in heating which pays for my summer AC. 

Go for confort.


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

Frenchy99 said:


> I went with a thermo pump/heat pump 6 years ago. Perfect system. Cool in the summer and heats till -15 then my furnance takes over. 30% economy in heating which pays for my summer AC.
> 
> Go for confort.


What did the setup run you, roughly?

Sent from my SM-A715W using Tapatalk


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

1SweetRide said:


> Why does the weight matter? It will be sitting on a support and you won't be lugging it to picnics.


The heavier it is the more steel, the stronger/ more robust it is. Not all thin flimsy tin.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

lets get this out of the way, just in case.
it would be foolish to repair a 30 yr old model at 1/2 the cost of a new one. lets also remember the newer one *should be more energy efficient.
I trut you did some googling....bc like appliances, some brands are manufactured under different names from the same manufacturer (although that doesn't mean they use all the same parts).

the one thing I would consider, is how long does your father plan to live there? if hes very elderly and may end up in a home, or passing, I would get the cheapest one...at resale, you wont get a dime more for 1 brand over another....especially if its obscured over a lot of other renos that have to take place.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Diablo said:


> lets get this out of the way, just in case.
> it would be foolish to repair a 30 yr old model at 1/2 the cost of a new one. lets also remember the newer one *should be more energy efficient.
> I trut you did some googling....bc like appliances, some brands are manufactured under different names from the same manufacturer (although that doesn't mean they use all the same parts).
> 
> the one thing I would consider, is how long does your father plan to live there? if hes very elderly and may end up in a home, or passing, I would get the cheapest one...at resale, you wont get a dime more for 1 brand over another....especially if its obscured over a lot of other renos that have to take place.


I agree, no repair. It's hard to tell anything from websites of different manufacturers. Other than size and seer and db levels there is not much more solid info. There is sales fluff, but not much else.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

not sure this will help much, but fyi








Furnace & Air Conditioner Brands - Who Owns Who


Table of contentsReasons manufacturers acquire other brandsOwnership Breakdown of Top HVAC ManufacturersJohnson Controls owns/makes:Trane Technologies plc




www.furnaceprices.ca





you mentioned steel before, I don't think theres very much steel involved other than maybe the outer case, which ive never seen rust through. might be more relevant if building a battleship or tank. 









Trane vs Carrier vs Lennox Air Conditioner Review 2022


Want to know the difference among Trane, Carrier, and Lennox air conditioner? Check more details about Trane, Carrier, and Lennox air conditioner Prices, contractor reviews and recommended models.




www.pickhvac.com


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

forgive me if this is a hijack (feel free to PM instead), but lets say its a heatwave...30deg C for a few days, nights in the low 20's...does your AC unit keep up?
asking bc ive always suspected that ours was undersized by the builder...it fights to keep temps at 22-23deg and never shuts off, whereas our neighbours (completely different house, size etc) cycles on/off more.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Diablo said:


> forgive me if this is a hijack (feel free to PM instead), but lets say its a heatwave...30deg C for a few days, nights in the low 20's...does your AC unit keep up?
> asking bc ive always suspected that ours was undersized by the builder...it fights to keep temps at 22-23deg and never shuts off, whereas our neighbours (completely different house, size etc) cycles on/off more.


the wife likes our place at 18.5 all the time, dropping to 17.5 at 9 PM to early morning. The AC unit has no trouble keeping up and cycles regularly. (about 10 minutes on/20 minutes off). The main floor is a constant 18.5 The upstairs does creep up a bit and will hit 21 in the early evening on a hot day even though the fan on the furnace is running all the time. No big deal. It's a " 3 ton" unit spec'd out for me by a friend who's an HVAC guy.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Call reliance and pay for A/c insurance. Anytime it stops working they come by and fix it. Might not be called insurance but they have some sort of plan for that


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## johnnyshaka (Nov 2, 2014)

Lincoln said:


> the wife likes our place at 18.5 all the time, dropping to 17.5 at 9 PM to early morning. The AC unit has no trouble keeping up and cycles regularly. (about 10 minutes on/20 minutes off). The main floor is a constant 18.5 The upstairs does creep up a bit and will hit 21 in the early evening on a hot day even though the fan on the furnace is running all the time. No big deal. It's a " 3 ton" unit spec'd out for me by a friend who's an HVAC guy.


Mother of God, 18 degrees!! ⛄

I'm sure my wife would like to keep our place cooler but I'm a cheap ass mofo and have no issues with the house around 23-24 or so. These past few weeks we've had our thermostat set to 24...it usually kicks on around 1pm or so and runs steady until about 9pm. When it shuts down we'll usually get the windows open as it's usually cooled off enough by then and also turn on the summer fan. We're in a bungalow so that definitely helps as we're not trying to cool three levels.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

player99 said:


> The heavier it is the more steel, the stronger/ more robust it is. Not all thin flimsy tin.


I agree, I was responding to a comment that seemed to indicate the lighter the better.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

johnnyshaka said:


> Mother of God, 18 degrees!! ⛄
> 
> I'm sure my wife would like to keep our place cooler but I'm a cheap ass mofo and have no issues with the house around 23-24 or so. These past few weeks we've had our thermostat set to 24...it usually kicks on around 1pm or so and runs steady until about 9pm. When it shuts down we'll usually get the windows open as it's usually cooled off enough by then and also turn on the summer fan. We're in a bungalow so that definitely helps as we're not trying to cool three levels.


I agree. My wife is nuts.

For example, she just said, "I'm cold". It's 29 outside, 19 upstairs were we are, 18.5 on the main floor. Personally, I'd be much happier at 20C, even 21 or 22. I haven't heard the AC kick in lately so the house is holding temp not bad. I think if the AC compressor was running all the time, I'd be making some changes to the thermostat settings.


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

johnnyshaka said:


> Mother of God, 18 degrees!! ⛄
> 
> I'm sure my wife would like to keep our place cooler but I'm a cheap ass mofo and have no issues with the house around 23-24 or so. These past few weeks we've had our thermostat set to 24...it usually kicks on around 1pm or so and runs steady until about 9pm. When it shuts down we'll usually get the windows open as it's usually cooled off enough by then and also turn on the summer fan. We're in a bungalow so that definitely helps as we're not trying to cool three levels.


really don't no why you would open the windows at night after running A/C all day. A lot of what a unit does is remove humidity from the air and at night you are letting that humid air back in the house when you open up.


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## johnnyshaka (Nov 2, 2014)

Distortion said:


> really don't no why you would open the windows at night after running A/C all day. A lot of what a unit does is remove humidity from the air and at night you are letting that humid air back in the house when you open up.


I live just outside of Edmonton, we don't have anywhere the humidity you have in Southern Ontario...usually 10-15% less. With windows open late in the evening we often get a nice breeze and the house drops down to 20 or so by morning. If I were to leave the windows closed and just the summer fan running it doesn't take long to get really stuffy.

And, to be honest, the AC is rarely running as much as it has been the last 2 weeks or so because we've had a stretch of 30+ days which is rather unusual. Truth be told, I'd much rather not use the AC at all and have the windows open with a few fans placed in strategic positions throughout the house. But we have it and it's been damn hot so we use it.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

We've been contemplating CA for the past 26 yrs. Had a window unit for a couple of those years just to cool off the bedroom for a hour before turning in before that quit on us (too noisy as well).
On average, it's only been really bad maybe 2 weeks throughout the entire summer for us.
We keep all of our blinds shut throughout the day and run quiet ceiling fans. Open the windows at night.
I'm usually up at 4:30 am, so I'll open the door and window screens up and let the cool air blow through the house until the sun comes around.
Rinse, repeat.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Distortion said:


> really don't no why you would open the windows at night after running A/C all day. A lot of what a unit does is remove humidity from the air and at night you are letting that humid air back in the house when you open up.


Humidity is always between 50 & 60% in the house. I keep it that high for the guitars of course. And we do open windows at night, or when the temp outside drops below what it is in the house.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

we’re set to 75, so she won I guess


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

TheYanChamp said:


> What did the setup run you, roughly?
> 
> Sent from my SM-A715W using Tapatalk


I have to give you more details on what I did since the Thermo pump was only part of the bill.

I bought and old house 7 years ago that needed an entire redo. The central heating system was oil. The furnace was 25 years old, the 2 oil tanks in my basement were 25 years old and the gas line was installed in the concrete floor which isnt legal no more. My insurance company advised me that I needed to get this rectified or else they would no longer insure me.

I took advantage of a government promotion to renovate your home and make it more energy wise. Here its called Réno-Climat. Dont know if your province have any ... 

I decided to change to a new electric furnace and Thermo pump since these were part of the program. The total bill for both the new furnace and thermo pump was 6500$ tax in. bear in mind that I did all the electrical work, I did the duck work since changed the location of the furnace and helped with the total install.

The plus side, got a nice 2800$ back from the government program after all the work completed !!! 

If your AC unit is that old, how old is the furnace ?

Any government programs for renovations ?

A new heating and Colling system will add value to your home.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

electric furnace makes sense in Quebec ( they have about 1/3 the electricity rates of Ontario) so about 200 a month in Que and about 600-650 a month in Ont during the winter for the hydro bill. 

the Ont grants / rebates only applied if you had the house "efficiency evaluated" before and after the renos ... and only if contractors did all the work and the efficiency increased over a certain percentage.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Furnace is newer.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

oldjoat said:


> the Ont grants / rebates only applied if you had the house "efficiency evaluated" before and after the renos ... and only if contractors did all the work and the efficiency increased over a certain percentage.


Same here... I did follow the procedures... you only need to show invoices of all the products used to make the changes, you are allowed to do work yourself.



oldjoat said:


> so about 200 a month in Que and about 600-650 a month in Ont during the winter for the hydro bill.


Id love to have a $200 bill in winter... never happened... your 600-650 is more on line with what I pay.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

in Ont , they only paid IF you went away from hydro .... (oil , prop nat gas )
and ALL the work had to be done by contractors ( to submit the bills )

still, OP should consider a new (non freon) unit in most circumstances.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

oldjoat said:


> in Ont , they only paid IF you went away from hydro .... (oil , prop nat gas )
> and ALL the work had to be done by contractors ( to submit the bills )
> 
> still, OP should consider a new (non freon) unit in most circumstances.


They won't manufacture the coolant after Jan 2021. There will still be lots available though. All the new units use a new safer coolant.


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