# Why censor serial numbers?



## ThePass (Aug 10, 2007)

I notice alot of people here, there and everywhere tend to 'blackout' their guitar's serial number in pictures that they post online. I've never felt the need to, not sure if I should. Why do people do that? What security issues are at risk?

Just wonderin'

Cheers.

Also, I posted this in the "open mic" sub-forum, seeing as it really isn't geared toward one particular piece of gear. More a 'hey how come' kinda thing. Sorry Mods if you need to move this.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Scammers apply actual serial numbers to bogus instruments so that duped owners can still look them up and they appear legitimate.

Peace, Mooh.


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## ThePass (Aug 10, 2007)

Gottcha......!


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

I've often wondered too. Makes sense.


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2012)

Could you not then just enter a combination of numbers 
in a serial number search engine until one clicks? I'm
thinking that someone would try to claim an advertised
guitar as being their stolen one by using the pictured
serial number(?)


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

that would be a lot more effort then simply copying a serial number that's known


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Then they use pictures of guitars with numbers scammed from the www to misrepresent their intent.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

I still think its because the seller or displayer originally bought the instrument from a non-reputable or unfamiliar seller and they don't want a cop, insurance investigator or the legal owner on the scene.

When I buy a second-hand item of significant value, I always ask to see an original bill of sale from the retailer, and get a secondary one from the current seller. Its often hard to get the original bill when buying a vintage product, but seeing one and getting a photocopy makes it easier to sleep at night. And having legal provenance will definitely raise the value of the item.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I think it would be easier to walk into a store and take a picture of one. Plus pictures can be so manipulated these days with software you don't know what's real anymore.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ThePass said:


> Gottcha......!



Great avatar by the way.


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

If a guitar is being displayed for sale and a buyer arrives and notices the s/n is different than the one depicted online, then he should wisely walk away. 
I don't have any stats on how often the average guitar changes hands, but even if it were every 5 years, a 1981 instrument would be owned by 6 people. What is the chance that one of the owners ripped it off from someone else? Maybe 1 in 10?

Insurance companies likely have extensive databases on stolen instruments complete with s/ns. Since they have paid out millions over the years in theft claims you can bet your life they have someone out there checking the numbers of guitars shown online. For everyone they recover, its money in their pocket. Especially instruments that later have become vintage!


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## ThePass (Aug 10, 2007)

Krelf said:


> I still think its because the seller or displayer originally bought the instrument from a non-reputable or unfamiliar seller and they don't want a cop, insurance investigator or the legal owner on the scene.


That's what I was thinking too.



Milkman said:


> Great avatar by the way.



Thanks!


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

I was reading a statistic somewhere said that a fairly high % of vintage instruments on the market were stolen at one time or another. Damn good reason not to show the S/N on line. 



Krelf said:


> If a guitar is being displayed for sale and a buyer arrives and notices the s/n is different than the one depicted online, then he should wisely walk away.
> I don't have any stats on how often the average guitar changes hands, but even if it were every 5 years, a 1981 instrument would be owned by 6 people. What is the chance that one of the owners ripped it off from someone else? Maybe 1 in 10?
> 
> Insurance companies likely have extensive databases on stolen instruments complete with s/ns. Since they have paid out millions over the years in theft claims you can bet your life they have someone out there checking the numbers of guitars shown online. For everyone they recover, its money in their pocket. Especially instruments that later have become vintage!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Scottone said:


> I was reading a statistic somewhere said that a fairly high % of vintage instruments on the market were stolen at one time or another. @#!*% good reason not to show the S/N on line.


That makes sense. So, those are ones to stay away from.


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

Simple Scenario:

1. Guy steals LP from house, bar, car, or studio to feed drug habit.

2. He quickly sells it in a shady bar for $200 says he needs money to go to Vancouver to see sick father. Then gets his fix.

3. New buyer suspects its stolen. Plays it for three years, asks friend who is leaving town soon to sell it on Kijiji for commission.

4. The friend sells it to a new buyer and gives a receipt with a phoney name and then moves away a week later as planned.

5. New buyer believes he has a clean guitar because he has a receipt and the seller seemed like a nice guy.

6. He sells it a year later to buy another guitar and gives the new LP buyer a receipt with his true name and address.

6. Buyer then takes it in to a large music chain for a modification a year later and is delayed at the counter as the sales clerk calls a cop after checking the stolen guitar registry.

7. Bye bye guitar. If the victim of crime claimed the theft through his insurance company and was compensated, the insurance gets the guitar. If he had no insurance he gets the instrument back.

8. Last buyer who had the guitar seized sues the guy who sold it to him, since his receipt showed his true name and address.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i dunno man, sounds a little far fetched. half the time when you call the cops they dont even bother to show.


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## Guest (Nov 16, 2012)

There's a song in all this somewhere. don'cha think?


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## ThePass (Aug 10, 2007)

I'm learning a lot here. Great points all round and really opened my eyes...


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

If the stats are true about a high percentage of "vintage" instruments were stolen at one time or another then there's a good chance that some of my guitars fall into that category. Oh well. As far as hiding the serial number goes, can't see the point myself. And how many people, after a year or two, have the bill of sale or have the serial number for anything written down. Krelf's simple scenario is a little complicated but not that far fetched. 
1 Someone steals the guitar to get his fix or pay his dealer.
2 Either the dealer takes it or the guy goes to a shady bar, asks $200 and probably takes $50. Either way the guitar gets sold.
3 New buyer knows it's hot and either gets rid of it fast or maybe keeps it for a few years then sells it for a reasonable price.
4 By now the guitar has passed thru a few hands and might be a city or province away from it's starting place.
5 When it finally goes into a store to get modified, the registry probably isn't checked. If it is, it's probably only checked back for maybe a year.


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

There are innumerable paths a stolen instrument can take. And music stores have different policies on checking instruments for past theft. 

I just urge guitarists who are negotiating to buy a pre-owned instrument to not only check it out physically, but also require the seller to provide some ownership history. He should at least be able to supply the name and address of the person or store where he had acquired it. An old receipt would help.

Making stolen instruments a little harder to sell would benefit us all. You are not just asking these questions to help yourself. You are also doing it for the poor guys who have been ripped off over the years.


(re: earlier comment that cops don't show. I was in L&M last year and they did show up when a young guy brought in a stolen guitar)


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## ThePass (Aug 10, 2007)

One thing I would never do is buy a hot axe.


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