# Ground/Shield issue - acoustic guitar with magnetic pickup. PLEASE HELP! (thanks)



## BlackAngusYoung (Mar 31, 2010)

Hi,
I've loved this forum for a while, but just joined today because I have a question. I got my first acoustic/electric yesterday and hope someone can help me with a problem I perceive it has.

I know a bit about guitar wiring, but mostly for electrics. My new acoustic is unique because it's apparently styled after a Stratocaster. It is small and thin, has great access to upper frets, and--oddly, I think--the pickup is a stacked humbucker mounted between the soundhole and neck. It's designed for electric guitarists who want a more acoustic sound without worrying about feedback, and may want to use electric amps and pedals and such. It can sound acoustic, electric or even kinda jazzy. It's called an Ibanez Talman TCM50. (Some acoustic Talmans have piezo pickups but mine is the one with the magnetic.)

Now, the problem...
There is a hum/buzz coming through the amp. It's pretty bad, but totally goes away if I touch my finger to the metal on the end of the cable, or the metal on the amp, or the wire that connects the pickup inside the guitar. Since it goes away when I touch it, I'm assuming there must be something I can do to put it right for good, as if I were touching it. (That is, other than playing barefoot and using my amp as a ottoman.)

Does anyone have any ideas for me? Is there other info I should provide and haven't thought of?

The pickup's wire in the guitar is very thin and shielded with a silver braid, but it was also bent and so some of the shielding has spread apart and exposed the main (but plastic coated) wire. 
I am guessing that if this wire were better shielded, it could help.... but how do I do that? Can I use tinfoil? Aluminum tape?
Another guess of mine is that it needs to be better grounded, rather than shielded. Anyone know how I can do that?

The pickup is a completely sealed stacked humbucker. It is all plastic and the back seems to be filled in with resin or something. It's completely hard and I can't scratch it or anything, so it isn't just wax as one might guess. It's a totally solid/sealed unit with the wire just coming through the plastic at the back. I don't think the wire can be replaced completely. That's why I think I have to shield or ground the original.

I see a lot of info online about similar problems with electric guitars. It doesn't seem there are too many acoustic guitarists/do-it-yourselfers discussing techy stuff. Or there's just so much info about modding electrics that the acoustic info is harder to find.

Thanks for reading my question and for any help you can provide. VERY MUCH APPRECIATED!!!

-BlackAngusYoung


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

This is not sounding like a pick-up problem, but more of a grounding problem from your outlet to your amplifier. As I never recommend that you try to make sure that the outlet is properly grounded. If you know someone who does electric work ( a professional ) have them check to make sure that the outlet is properly grounded that you are using and it should take care of the problem.
As you mention that when you touch the end pin the hum goes away, indicates that once you touch it you are acting as the ground for the system, good luck I know it can be aggravating to have to listen to it.Ship


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## Alain Moisan (Jan 16, 2010)

What Ship says. Plus if you bought it new, than this kind of problem should be covered under warranty. That's the route I would take if I were you. If you didn't buy it new, than an Ibanez tech center is your best bet anyway.

Good luck!


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## shortstrings (Oct 20, 2008)

Have a close look at the external sheilding on the cable going into the pickup. It looks suspect you could wrap it with a conductive tape and see if that helps.


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## BlackAngusYoung (Mar 31, 2010)

Thanks for the suggestions.

I did purchase it new, but from my own store. So if I can be sure what part is bad, they will send me a replacement under warranty. I'd rather fix what's wrong with this guitar myself than send the whole thing away. (Since I've already waxed, lemon-oiled, restrung and upgraded the tuners on it.)

I have another guitar with a magnetic pickup in the store, and it has the same problem. The guitars with the same preamp/EQ unit but with piezo pickups do not have the problem. It really seems to me like the wire to the pickup is badly shielded. I'd like to take shortsrings' suggestion and try to shield it myself. Ibanez will replace the pickup if I ask them to, but I imagine the replacement will have the same trouble. It's probably a design flaw because they tried to be cool and put an electric pickup on an acoustic guitar, basically.

A weird thing is that I don't get the buzzing noise when I use a battery-powered amp. I only get it with an amp that's plugged into the wall, yet that same amp will be fine with a guitar that's piezo-equipped.
*****
so... if I want to wrap the cable with conductive tape...
Can I put the tape right over the existing shielding or do I have to put something non-conductive between the original shielding layer and mine?
(I fear that's a stupid question. I try to ask those quickly to get them out of the way.)

Also, can I just use aluminum duct tape for this? Can I use aluminum kitchen foil and electrical tape to hold it on? (That might be easier to remove if I do want to exchange the pickup with Ibanez.) I'd rather try something I have.

Thanks again.


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## BlackAngusYoung (Mar 31, 2010)

Someone in the Music Electronics Forum suggested a product called a Plate Mate from Stewmac. It is a metal plate that sticks to the underside of an acoustic guitar's bridge, forcing the ends of the strings to rest against it. It's marketed for guitars with worn-out wooden holes or to prevent that from happening, but it was suggested to me that I install one and run a wire from it to the guitar's output ground. This is a way to ground the strings of an acoustic guitar like the strings on an electric, which is apparently helpful when the acoustic guitar has a magnetic pickup. I made one myself instead of paying around $30 to order one, and it's made a world of difference. I think the guitar sounds better now, but if I still get the humming it goes away while playing... just as it used to go away if I touched the metal on the end of the cord.
I thought it was a pretty awesome tip and it seems to have helped a lot.... so I thought I better pass it along.








Click the image link to see how I made mine out of a miniature serving tray. It was a souvenir from Spain, so I thought it would be fitting to use on an Ibanez. (Though both were made in China.)


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## Alain Moisan (Jan 16, 2010)

BlackAngusYoung said:


> ... I think the guitar sounds better now, but if I still get the humming it goes away while playing... just as it used to go away if I touched the metal on the end of the cord.


Hi,

Not that I want to burst you bubble, but although it seems like a 'functional' solution, it is not the 'right' solution. If the humming goes away when you touch the strings, this means 'you' are grounding the guitar. Althoug chances are slim, if an electrical failure would occur in your amp, you might be in danger.

Tought you might like to know...


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

alain, wouldnt this be the same as an electric guitar, with the strings grounding the circuit?
im not very knowledgable when it comes to acoustic amplification, but it seems like all the op has done here is ground his guitar the same way a tele or strat would be grounded?
kind of brilliant really, but im curious to know if there are dangers inherent in the rest of the system that would make this a less than ideal solution?

BlackAngusYoung- thats awesome-
ive used brass stock to make my own "platemates" in the past- i do find it brings some life to the guitars sound. i dont normally amplify acoustics, so your idea is completely new to me. cool stuff.


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## Alain Moisan (Jan 16, 2010)

fraser said:


> alain, wouldnt this be the same as an electric guitar, with the strings grounding the circuit?
> im not very knowledgable when it comes to acoustic amplification, but it seems like all the op has done here is ground his guitar the same way a tele or strat would be grounded?


Not really. Grounding the strings is not a bad thing on its own. What is bad here is that there is a 'hum' unless he touches the strings. This means the guitar is still badly grounded but becomes correctly grounded only when he touches it, thus making him the ground. Grounding strings is not dangerous as long as the guitar is well grounded.


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## BlackAngusYoung (Mar 31, 2010)

To be honest, the hum now seems pretty gone even when I'm not touching the strings. Does that make sense? Have the now-grounded strings created a forcefield of hum resistance in front of the pickup?

I really appreciate the input. I was wondering if this is dangerous. I don't understand what the difference is between this and my solid electric guitars. You mean that it is only dangerous to have the strings ground if the guitar also isn't ground, right?

Also interesting... I sometimes play in a room where the wall power has no ground. There is a slight buzz unless I'm touching the strings, but it's the same with my Les Paul.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

BlackAngusYoung said:


> .........Also interesting... I sometimes play in a room where *the wall power has no ground*. .......... QUOTE]
> 
> *This is not safe !! * Can you get the receptacle grounded, or play through a receptacle that is properly grounded.
> 
> ...


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## BlackAngusYoung (Mar 31, 2010)

The ungrounded outlet is in my bedroom at my parents' house, where I'm just staying for a couple months. Soon I will be in my own place with the right wiring for my gear. (And finally the right amount of space for it too! And no neighbours or housemates to annoy.)
I almost always play with a battery-powered headphone amp in this room. I just plug into my real amp once in a while when nobody's home. It's a new tube amp and kinda hard to resist trying it out when I get a chance for a couple minutes. I am just getting into electric guitar tones and gear and this is my first "real" amp. Pretty exciting... but I guess that's an extra reason to be careful!

Thanks for your concern.
I love that such a great guitar forum is based in Canada!


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## Alain Moisan (Jan 16, 2010)

BlackAngusYoung said:


> I don't understand what the difference is between this and my solid electric guitars. You mean that it is only dangerous to have the strings ground if the guitar also isn't ground, right?


Yes that's what I mean. And now that you mentioned that you play in a room where the inlets are not grounded, I'm starting to think it may be related to this as well (although it also starts to surpass my electrical knowledge...)

And sorry if I took so long to answer, I just noticed you replied.


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