# Ripped off by a Teen



## wayne086 (Jan 22, 2010)

Omg!I got ripped off by a kid!I should have known better,but when you always wanted one.I contacted a person on Kijiji,for a Epiphone Ace Frehley les Paul for a good price(I know I know if its to good to be true)Made the deal,traded a good parts caster strat plus 100.00 bucks for a new loaded pickguard at a local store.I kept the pickguard from the partscaster,to much invested in it.Snow storm last night in ottawa,so I made it a quick deal.Got it home tuned it and played it,sounded okay played not bad bad,but the more I looked at it the more it I became suspectful.First off the pickups weren't dimarzio's and the sig was not in a inlay.so off to the comp I went to research,and found out it was a Chinese copy of a chinese copy!contacted him and said lets reverse the deal,the one you have was a fake,and he got all huffy and said it wasn't.So a gentleman in a used local shop confirmed it,that was indeed a fake.He now knew it was a fake,asked to get my stuff back and he refused,said it was all in good faith,he didn't know at the time it was fake.So the deal should stand!at this point when you find out the guitar you had was a fake,would you not take back the offending guitar and return the property.I don't want to get nasty,but he's a friend of a friend.
Dumbfounded in Ottawa


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## noman (Jul 24, 2006)

Did you meet him at his home? If so, contact him, tell him you know where he lives and you'll call the cops. Usually enough to scare younger people straight.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Since you know who he is, you might ask him how much is respect is worth. Tell him that if he's a real man that his respect must be worth at least a few hundred dollars. Then let him know if he doesn't undo the deal that you will contact everyone you can think of that knows him and will tell him what a scum he is and not to trust him with anything.

Don't yell, threaten to "get him" or anything of that nature; it will only get his back up. Do it in a calm even voice. If he still refuses, tell him to think about it because he will have a couple hours to get back to you before you start contacting these people. The first person I would contact by email with the notice of his scamming ways is him.

i.e. "Dear friend of (scammer's name), you may find it to your benefit to know that has a very untrustworthy way of doing business, etc. etc. or something along this line.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

There is a link on this page about what to do if you experienced fraud etc...

Kijiji Help Desk










What do I do if I have been scammed?








 








If you are the victim of fraud, please contact Kijiji and your local police service. You may also want to contact the following other services: Royal Canadian Mounted Police Reporting Economi...


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

Here is an article specifically referring to the Epiphone Ace Frehley Guitar from eBay (owners of Kijiji)...

eBay Canada Guides - Ace Frehley Les Pauls made in China


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Or put some JS Moore pu's in it and make it a killer guitar .....


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

Although it's probably more trouble than its worth, consider taking him to small claims court. If it's really eating you up inside, this can really be a tonic for your resentment. Get a summons made up and get some hard proof...a note from a specialist or distributor, the actual Kijiji advert, and print out some extra supporting data and specs. Depending on the jurisdiction, you may need to add the name of a parent on the form. Chances are he will settle with you a few days after being summoned.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

The problem with small claims court is that even if you win, they may not pay you so you have to take them to court again. Then you win and they don't pay you. This cycle can go on for many years with no resolution for you and many hours of your time wasted.

Emails and phone numbers can be blocked and you could be sued for harassment by the parents who believe the lies their angelic little boy tells them.

You might seek out several rather large musicians that may be able to persuade the youngster to do the right thing...

No, don't do that. You've been had. Shit happens.


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## Intrepid (Oct 9, 2008)

How old is this kid? Is he under 16? 18?


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

Sorry to hear that Wayne. I think its fraud and would call the cops in and report him.


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## wayne086 (Jan 22, 2010)

17 and being ridiculous


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

I think it falls under 'buyer beware'. You had a chance to inspect it before you walked away. Later, you did your research and discovered a problem - you did things in the wrong order. It will be considered an as-is where-is deal. The cops aren't going to help you - it's too small a transaction for them to waste any time on, and also see my previous point. I don't believe the courts would either. I think all you can do is try and shame the kid into making things right, and if he doesn't make sure all of your mutual acquaintances (and, if he's underage, his parents) are aware of your side of what happened.

But if you had it in hand before the deal was done, and had a chance to walk away, then you screwed up by not doing your research up front.


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## TheRumRunner (Sep 29, 2011)

I'm going to step into the camp of "sold you a fake and knew it".

The guitar was presented as the real thing, a legitimate and genuine article. Upon inspection it was not. 

I would not send emails or place telephone calls. I would march over, in a friendly but stern tone, demand a full return of your items.

The seller will have a much harder time putting you off when you are standing in front of him.

Good luck

Dw


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

Post a "fraud warning ad"...post pics of the guitar...the seller's e-mail address...a little public shame might bring them around...


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## [email protected] (Jul 5, 2006)

I replied to the persons Ad to find out more about the guitar as they didn't make very many of these epi guitars. I asked him If it had the case candy and case and He stated no but the guitar was authentic. I told him if he didn't have the original case and epi certificate I was not interested as the market was full of fakes for this guitar, he then got all pissy with me in his emails. Sorry to hear you bought this guitar, your parts caster was a much better guitar. I hope you can resolve the issue without using the police, I can dig out my emails from this person if you need additional proof he was trying to sell it as authentic.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Yes, I agree that if it was claimed to be authentic, then the "as is, where is" doesn't apply.

It's NOT authentic. If it was selling as just another guitar, you bought it, you live with it.


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## [email protected] (Jul 5, 2006)

the last price I saw on the guitar was $450, I hope you did better. Knock off guitars , the better ones may be worth 300-400 if they are indeed stated as a knock off then its eye of the beholder eyes wide open to what your buying, based on the forums and it being a small town for buying and selling, myself I would make it firewood before passing it on to someone else. its not worth dealing with the issues.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Be VERY careful about marching up to his door if he is a minor. Essentially, you want zero contact with him, it is his parents who will represent him and are (theoretically) responsible for him. Whether they will just laugh you off their doorstep is another matter. But, whatever you do, don't threaten the kid in any way shape or form, that could end very very badly for you. 

I'd write it off to experience at this point if I were you.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

First, I'm sorry for your loss...

But my money says you're SOL, even if the seller said it was authentic, he's not an expert, all he has to do is stick to his story that he thinks it's real and nobody will help you, not the cops or small claims court, neither...

As noted above, research first, inspection second, that way you wouldn't have bought it and this thread would not exist, sorry...


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## wayne086 (Jan 22, 2010)

Yep,
Jimmy D and keto are right,but it does not stop me from letting other people know what he did,another kijiji person shared his emails with me also,as he told him all the same things I found out,before I contacted him,but he went to proceed with the deal with me knowingly.I am SOL, but his little rep is damaged.And at some point I will have something he will want and I will not deal with him.What goes around comes around,I believe that, because eventually it will catch up.Anybody want a Epiphone Ace Frehley?lol Well to find some dimarzio's.Anybody got a set?


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Pete (faracaster) had some triple Gibby pups for sale in the emporium.


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## TheRumRunner (Sep 29, 2011)

I respect your decision to let it go as a learning experience.

Going to visit him, and his parents, you with an observer, taping the conversation at the door is in my opinion your only means of getting your goods and funds back. No threats of physical harm are needed. Just eye-to-eye contact.

*This person will rip off others unless he is confronted*. I have two teens in the house and they have shown me complete face-book pages full of counterfeit goods here in Toronto that "rip off" a lot of people. You name it, it's there. These kids start early on the slippery slope to FRAUD. 

However, if he is 12 or over he can be charged with Fraud as a minor. He needs to know that. In fact I bet he does know that because the Ontario Elementary school system brings in local Police in grades 7 & 8 for sessions to discuss just these very things.

See sec 380 of the Canadian Criminal code. These laws are in place to protect us from the very type of incident to have become a victim of.

CanLII - Criminal Code, RSC 1985, c C-46 

Once again, good luck.

DW


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

You should shoot some pics and post them, I'd be interested to see if its an MDF body, maybe open the cavity cover and slice off a portion of the wall so we can see what it's made of.

Pictures would be a great service, also why don't you send him a link to this thread.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

Is the original ad still up..???...post the link here...


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## wayne086 (Jan 22, 2010)

I will not proceed any further,its done. I have already changed the tuners to real grovers,next is the pots .Make the best of it.Lesson Learned." Heh heh heh. `Learn'd', son. It's pronounced `learn'd'."Pepe: I love you, Papa Homer."Homer: I love you, too, Pepsi."


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

wayne086 said:


> I will not proceed any further,its done. I have already changed the tuners to real grovers,next is the pots .Make the best of it.Lesson Learned." Heh heh heh. `Learn'd', son. It's pronounced `learn'd'."Pepe: I love you, Papa Homer."Homer: I love you, too, Pepsi."


You're a better man than me! 

Happy New Year.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

wayne086 said:


> I will not proceed any further,its done. I have already changed the tuners to real grovers,next is the pots .Make the best of it.Lesson Learned." Heh heh heh. `Learn'd', son. It's pronounced `learn'd'."Pepe: I love you, Papa Homer."Homer: I love you, too, Pepsi."


That`s cool. Happy New Year!


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2012)

guess what's on kijiji (ajax).


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

That's a downer. Sorry you were the victim of such a dick-wad. I wish I had something constructive to add - "Ace Frehly sucks anyway"? No wait .. that's no good!

P.S. post any details you have of the little prick. The rest of us can avoid him and do our bit to spread the word.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Here's a list of humbuckers which I have laying around right now. Nothing great I'm afraid but you're welcome to any of them:

- a 90's Ibanez humbucker (front or rear? no idea?)
- a MightyMite humbucker which I got from God knows where
- an Epiphone pair of F and R humbuckers, which came from a Made in China Epiphone SG.


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## wayne086 (Jan 22, 2010)

yer breakin my heart.Its a real one in Ajax.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I had a chance to buy one of these new back in the late eighties.
I stood around waiting for service, didn't get it, so I went across the street and bought a Hamer Californian.


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## wayne086 (Jan 22, 2010)

Sounds like 1980's Steves Music,was the young ones restringing their guitars and talking with their girlfriends while the older sales clerk were helping the 25 customers?LMAO!!!!!


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Ha! It was actually in Winnipeg, probably '89ish.

Being a big KISS fan for years, when I first was that guitar, my jaw dropped.
I think that it was the first time that it was offered.
It might have sat in the shop for a while, because it had a blowout sale price that was in my range at the time.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

sulphur said:


> Pete (faracaster) had some triple Gibby pups for sale in the emporium.


those are a sweet deal.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

Take him to Small Claims Court-he probably won't show up. Once the judgment is made against him, he won't pay.

Then go to court and ask for a bench warrant.

One day when he is stopped by the police for whatever reason, they will have to arrest him.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

I would at least make his parents aware of it. There are a lot of good parents out there that truly don't know how much of a POS their kids are.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

rollingdam said:


> Take him to Small Claims Court-he probably won't show up. Once the judgment is made against him, he won't pay.
> 
> Then go to court and ask for a bench warrant.
> 
> One day when he is stopped by the police for whatever reason, they will have to arrest him.



it might only be an inconvenience in an already shitty life, but it's better than nothing imo


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

This thread illustrates one of the real nasty trickle down impacts of the ongoing and willful ignorance by the Chinese government regarding counterfeit instruments.

I don't worry so much about the initial buyer. When you get a new guitar for well below cost you have to know something's fishy.

It's the secondary sales that can create really bad situations.

In this case the buyer (OP) is reacting with some control and consideration.

What happens when the guy who buys the fake is a nut job and decides to take it out in "street justice"?

I think it's important to avoid these pieces of crap if at all possible.

That being said, I would NOT walk away without at least ensuring that his parents know he's selling forgeries as the real deal.

He got lucky this time. The next time......


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## wayne086 (Jan 22, 2010)

Here is some of his arguements:

When I had the Epiphone I was told it was a real Epiphone, I was selling as is, my price was low, I had enough pictures showing what the guitar was, the deal went quick, I don't think I'm in the wrong. 

When I brought it to my buddy he was checking it out saying its a great Epiphone guitar etc. and when we shook that should have sealed the deal right there, I took a look at the strat, and I mentioned I didn't have an amp, and you didn't look at the Epiphone a whole lot when we were in the lobby. So I don't think I did anything wrong with this one, I did a kijiji deal like its suppose to be

Wayne, we made the deal, I'm not a scammer I'm not a fake product seller, I I was the guitar was something that it wasn't we shook and made a deal, I didn't know the guitar was a fake until you and ***** told me. So I don't think I'm in the wrong here. We made the deal and I offered to let you check it out a bit more but you didn't, we shook and we made the deal

And some one contacted me after I post my ad about fake Epiphones:

Damn, I spoke to the kid that was selling it as a real one, and gave him sh*t for trying to scam people, I looked at it and noticed right away that it was fake, they only made them from 1998-2006 and only made in Korea, but the serial number said it was made in 2008 in china.

So he knew.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

I think you should at least let us know his name. I don't see a reason not to tell us.


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## the_fender_guy (Jul 22, 2008)

Another piece of sh** not being held accountable for his lack of ethics and morals. This a**hole knew he was scamming you and didn't care.
He'll do this over and over again. What are the odds he has other Chinese fakes on order.


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## mario (Feb 18, 2006)

I admire the OP for letting this go and going on with life. The only problem is it will encourage this teenage POS to do this again. As someone posted you should at the very least let the parents know what their little boy has done.


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## TheRumRunner (Sep 29, 2011)

Time to get serious, if you can scrape some DNA off that knock off guitar and send it to me, I'll have everything I need....










DW


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

Sorry to hear that man. The fact that there are fake epiphones in circulation is quite a bit disturbing...I've always shyed away from expensive electric guitars over kijiji because they can be so easily cloned and at a quick glance seem indistinguishable. now it seems the cheap ones are getting faked, too. quite disturbing. at least with acoustics you can hear if something is up right from the get-go.

I'm not 100% on this, but i think this is the sellers list. The ace frehley is still on the site. make sure you all avoid.

Kijiji : Poster's Ads.

What annoys me is that kijiji demands no accountability from its sellers. it's the internet equivalent of buying something in a dark alley. i've had a lot of good experiences, but i've caught more than a couple bullshitters too. there needs to be a feedback system to report people who try to pull this crap.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

I have a hunch that Gene Simmons owns the plant in China that this fake came from.


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## Davestp1 (Apr 25, 2006)

Wayne, Ottawa is in reality a small town. Like you said, what goes around......


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

funny enough...i saw this one the other day...no pictures...so i passed over it...thinkin it was a fake...

ace frehley limited edition budokan - Peterborough Musical Instruments For Sale - Kijiji Peterborough Canada.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

mike_oxbig said:


> _* There needs to be a feedback system to report people who try to pull this crap.*_


There is a way to report a scammer while the ad is up. On the right hand side or the pager, near the top, you can click on "report ad". If you report it as a scam, it will disappear usually in a couple hours but at the latest in a day. I've done it many times with the obvious scammers selling cars and boats and a few times with guitars.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> There is a way to report a scammer while the ad is up. On the right hand side or the pager, near the top, you can click on "report ad". If you report it as a scam, it will disappear usually in a couple hours but at the latest in a day. I've done it many times with the obvious scammers selling cars and boats and a few times with guitars.


yeah that's all well and good, but it still doesn't make the people accountable. i've tried making pleas to the "moderators" of kijiji in the past when there were a half dozen people spamming a dozen ads multiple times per day. i brought up some excellent points and they literally said "we really don't care if you don't like it leave" I would imagine the same apathetic mindset would be in place for putting a permanent end to this.

Lets say we all report him and kijiji does terminate his ad. how hard is it to make a new one? at the very most they ban his account. it would take all of 4 minutes to make a brand new email address, then you're back under the cloak of anonymity doing the same shenanigans.

There needs to be a system in place for people selling things more expensive than what you'd typically find at a garage sale. Kijiji would lose most of their sellers if everyone that wanted to get rid of a toaster or a pair of skiis had to jump through the same hoops as ebay, but at the point of spending 500$ or more on an item you should be allowed more peace of mind than what they offer.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

The fact is, the market is damaged by the existance and seeming tolerance of these forgeries.

You can't trust that a guitar is what it is said to be without verifying it anymore. 

And, it's going to get worse before (if) it gets better.


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## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

ezcomes said:


> funny enough...i saw this one the other day...no pictures...so i passed over it...thinkin it was a fake...
> 
> ace frehley limited edition budokan - Peterborough Musical Instruments For Sale - Kijiji Peterborough Canada.



"Not a typical Epiphone" Says it all right there.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

Milkman said:


> The fact is, the market is damaged by the existance and seeming tolerance of these forgeries.
> 
> You can't trust that a guitar is what it is said to be without verifying it anymore.
> 
> And, it's going to get worse before (if) it gets better.



It's not just forgeries, it's the whole mentality. everyone is trying to scam the other as much as they think is possible. it's long since been at the point where you have to both make sure the item is indeed the item, in the condition they stated, and also make sure that you couldn't buy it brand new for less. If i've said it once i've said it a hundred times - kijiji and craigslist have ruined the spirit of garage sales.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I've reported one of those stupid "air guitar" postings several times now, it's still there.


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## Oil_slick9416 (Jan 2, 2013)

wayne086 said:


> Omg!I got ripped off by a kid!I should have known better,but when you always wanted one.I contacted a person on Kijiji,for a Epiphone Ace Frehley les Paul for a good price(I know I know if its to good to be true)Made the deal,traded a good parts caster strat plus 100.00 bucks for a new loaded pickguard at a local store.I kept the pickguard from the partscaster,to much invested in it.Snow storm last night in ottawa,so I made it a quick deal.Got it home tuned it and played it,sounded okay played not bad bad,but the more I looked at it the more it I became suspectful.First off the pickups weren't dimarzio's and the sig was not in a inlay.so off to the comp I went to research,and found out it was a Chinese copy of a chinese copy!contacted him and said lets reverse the deal,the one you have was a fake,and he got all huffy and said it wasn't.So a gentleman in a used local shop confirmed it,that was indeed a fake.He now knew it was a fake,asked to get my stuff back and he refused,said it was all in good faith,he didn't know at the time it was fake.So the deal should stand!at this point when you find out the guitar you had was a fake,would you not take back the offending guitar and return the property.I don't want to get nasty,but he's a friend of a friend.
> Dumbfounded in Ottawa


Oh man that really sucks, I came across this post on mylespaul forums, i assume this was the one you got? people there called it a fake. it sucks man, i feel bad for you

Epi Ace Frehley in Ottawa - Les Paul Forums


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## King Loudness (May 3, 2010)

Jeez, Wayne. Sorry to hear that! As a teen myself I was curious to check out this thread. I wish I could offer some advice, but I must commend you on taking the high road in this instance. Kids are not always honest and straightforward in their dealings because there are few repercussions if they do so (compared to adults). Karma shall be kind to you on this one and hopefully this young guy gets what's coming to him down the line. I get the impression that he knew it was a fake, and if so, he should have stated that and not tried to hide that fact. All the best!

W.


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## wayne086 (Jan 22, 2010)

When I was talking to the guys at spaceman,one of them said they can stamp COPY on the back of the headstock,ruin any chances of ripping off anybody else as being real.I think thats a good idea,some of them copies are good players,make a good bar guitar.No worries about your real expensive baby getting stolen.I plan this weekend to get COPY stamped on it.So morally I can can get rid of it and not worry about the next person getting ripped off.so far I replaced the grovers with real grovers,and the bridge and tail piece with real epiphone ones.(I never thought i would be raiding my sons parts box for epi parts).New wiring and 500 CTS pots.levelled the nut slots to the right height and also replaced the strap buttons,fake ones looked like they were about to snap.The body looks like pine and the neck looks maple,standing up against the 12's I put on to test the neck strength,so far so good.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

wayne086 said:


> When I was talking to the guys at spaceman,one of them said they can stamp COPY on the back of the headstock,ruin any chances of ripping off anybody else as being real.I think thats a good idea,some of them copies are good players,make a good bar guitar.No worries about your real expensive baby getting stolen.I plan this weekend to get COPY stamped on it.So morally I can can get rid of it and not worry about the next person getting ripped off.so far I replaced the grovers with real grovers,and the bridge and tail piece with real epiphone ones.(I never thought i would be raiding my sons parts box for epi parts).New wiring and 500 CTS pots.levelled the nut slots to the right height and also replaced the strap buttons,fake ones looked like they were about to snap.The body looks like pine and the neck looks maple,standing up against the 12's I put on to test the neck strength,so far so good.


That't good. I'd like to see it stamped on the FRONT of the headstock. The very act of putting another companies name or logo on a fake is a problem.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

Man, that sucks! I hate the feeling when you realize. On a much smaller scale, I have a couple of fake SM57s from ebay about 5 years ago that are sitting in a closet. I felt like such a sucker once I learned about it. They were my first SM57s, but I instantly realized they sounded like crap and several months later did the research to find out why. That was about a $100 lesson for me.

Despite your generosity in letting it go, I would not say it is the high road to let him off. I know he is not your responsibility to raise right, but there is someone entrusted with that role. You do owe it to that kid's parents to have the opportunity to teach him some last minute ethics before he is no longer in their care.
It's nice that you have made your peace with the situation and tried to make the best of it from a guitar standpoint, but the kid's parents might appreciate the info on their child as a favour to them and their legacy. If they don't care, you still took the high road giving them the opportunity to listen. If it was my kid and a level-headed adult offered me this information, I would honestly be suspicious at first about the truth; but I would get to the bottom of it, and would be extremely grateful to you in the end. I would make sure things were made right and then some for your trouble. I would not want to waste the opportunity to teach my kid how to take responsibility and be honest. That is WAY more valuable than any amount of money that could be lost. As a parent, you usually can't buy those sorts of opportunities to build some character into your child.

Of course, I'm not married yet, or have any kids; so maybe I live in an idealistic dreamworld about what parents are like.


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## xbolt (Jan 1, 2008)

I'm curious, 
Does his first name start with a B and last name L?


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

how about

S.O.B.

or

P.O.S.


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## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

When "offshore" fakes started becoming common on this continent, it struck me: Why can't we rely on our government(s) to screen and block fraudulence?
I mean, they screen imports for applicable import duties, tariffs, whatever, so that in itself is protecting domestic industry, health, economy, etc. - correct?
At the very least, there should be a requirement to indelibly mark imported 'reproduction' items _as such_, in a prominent place.
Stamping "Made in USA" on the headstock of a chinese 'knock-off' should disqualify it for importation - _that_ is deliberate deceit


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

J-75 said:


> When "offshore" fakes started becoming common on this continent, it struck me: Why can't we rely on our government(s) to screen and block fraudulence?
> I mean, they screen imports for applicable import duties, tariffs, whatever, so that in itself is protecting domestic industry, health, economy, etc. - correct?
> At the very least, there should be a requirement to indelibly mark imported 'reproduction' items _as such_, in a prominent place.
> Stamping "Made in USA" on the headstock of a chinese 'knock-off' should disqualify it for importation - _that_ is deliberate deceit


Since many of us can't identify all fakes how could this be done by officials who don't know anything about guitars? Add to this the fact that models are being added and changed constantly. Who will train these people and keep them up to date? Who will pay for it? Etc, etc, etc.

We can't get drugs off the street, murders from happening, stop hunger and a myriad of other serious maladies affecting us today, why would anyone think the government can stop fake guitars from being sold? Where do think it should rate on the scale of importance?

It's wrong that people are allowed to scam someone with these fake guitars but the best we're going to be able to do is be buyer aware. That's all the system allows these days.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

China completely ignores other nations' trademarks and copyrights.
There is a company in China that registered themselves as CF Martin & Co. and of course sell crap-there is nothing the real Martin Co. can do about it either.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

There should be a chute at customs for these guitars, that lead directly to this...


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

rollingdam said:


> China completely ignores other nations' trademarks and copyrights.
> There is a company in China that registered themselves as CF Martin & Co. and of course sell crap-there is nothing the real Martin Co. can do about it either.


While I agree categorically with everyone's sentiments about fakes etc, each country has it's own laws, copyrights, trademarks, patents etc.

If you were to search the Canadian trademark / copyright database, you'd find that Gibson only has their name registered, so there is nothing stopping anyone here from making Les Paul's in Canada, in the exact same shape as Gibson, right down to the headstock. 

You couldn't use the Gibson logo and they couldn't be sent to any country that Gibson does have protection in, like the USA. 

So there is no "crime" in making and selling a Les Paul in Canada to Gibson's exact spec's, until it's stamped Gibson or Made In USA or Shipped into the USA, which is where our government would or should shut it down and where the Chinese look the other way, for whatever reason.

Gibson need to get some coverage in the countries that are making these fakes and spend more on doing something to assist the authorities, sad but true.


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## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Since many of us can't identify all fakes how could this be done by officials who don't know anything about guitars? Add to this the fact that models are being added and changed constantly. Who will train these people and keep them up to date? Who will pay for it? Etc, etc, etc.


Easy - *they* have the advantage of 'seeing' the country of origin - *we* don't. A shipment from China, opened for inspection, marked 'Gibson' = dead giveaway.


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## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

While we're on this thread, I have to recall the Chinese chain of fake "Apple Stores" - even their employees thought that they were working for Apple.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Are you willing to pay to have every carton of goods coming into this country opened and every piece inspected? I doubt even the paperwork doesn't cover all the aspects of this. It's not until it's sold as a fake that there is a problem. Have you any idea how much time and what this would cost?


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## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Are you willing to pay to have every carton of goods coming into this country opened and every piece inspected? I doubt even the paperwork doesn't cover all the aspects of this. It's not until it's sold as a fake that there is a problem. Have you any idea how much time and what this would cost?


So why do drug smugglers rely on swallowed condoms, breast implants, hollow toys, shoes, bricks, insulation, etc. to ship their product? Why not just use boxes?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

J-75 said:


> So why do drug smugglers rely on swallowed condoms, breast implants, hollow toys, shoes, bricks, insulation, etc. to ship their product? Why not just use boxes?


Huh? What's drugs got to do with guitars? The last time I checked, guitars were legal; drugs are not.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

J-75 said:


> So why do drug smugglers rely on swallowed condoms, breast implants, hollow toys, shoes, bricks, insulation, etc. to ship their product? Why not just use boxes?


At least there's the canine unit for that type of things as well. If there were dogs that could smell fake guitars...


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Budda said:


> At least there's the canine unit for that type of things as well. If there were dogs that could smell fake guitars...


For checking fake guitars, you have to first teach the dog to play so he can check the tone. Those dogs are few and far between.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Sorry to hear Wayne! Well, lesson learned I guess. These days you have to be an expert or trust the seller implicitly especially when it comes to knockoffs of...well... knockoffs. A real Gibson is harder to fake as there would need to be far more detail involved to duplicate it....I'm sure there are some now who are getting pretty good at it though...


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

The truss rod cover used to be a dead give away on a Gibby fake.
They've since rectified that, now you have to eyeball the binding around the headstock/neck area.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

I typically stay away from trades on high end guitars, precisely because of this type of nonsense. Thankfully, my main gear interests are with vintage amps and, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has found a way to make money "faking" those...not on a large scale at least.

Steve


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

StevieMac said:


> I typically stay away from trades on high end guitars, precisely because of this type of nonsense. Thankfully, my main gear interests are with vintage amps and, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has found a way to make money "faking" those...not on a large scale at least.
> 
> Steve


Until now.

Now that I'm an Amp builder I will ultimately sell the Tweed Deluxe I'm building for....hmmm, after my labour and the parts I have to buy....roughly $11,965.


I figure it will take me months to build it so that seems fair.

Just wait until I start flooding the market with these puppies.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Milkman said:


> Until now.
> 
> Now that I'm an Amp builder I will ultimately sell the Tweed Deluxe I'm building for....hmmm, after my labour and the parts I have to buy....roughly $11,965.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the couple of decades warning!


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

It’s actually quite simple to tell a fake Gibby from a real one, I’ve never seen a fake with fret nibs, so if it has neck binding and no nibs it’s fake, no need to look further...


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

bluzfish said:


> Thanks for the couple of decades warning!



Oh sure, scoff now, but when you can't tell the original from my clone and you have to choose between the real one for a couple of grand and mine for... a bit more, you won't be laughing then funny boy.

anyone getting my point?

A steal of a deal may be just that. It's a different world than we lived in twenty or thirty years ago.


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## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

sulphur said:


> The truss rod cover used to be a dead give away on a Gibby fake.
> They've since rectified that, now you have to eyeball the binding around the headstock/neck area.


It's still pretty bad. Usually cut off near the nut because of the truss rod rout.


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## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

Jimmy_D said:


> It’s actually quite simple to tell a fake Gibby from a real one, I’ve never seen a fake with fret nibs, so if it has neck binding and no nibs it’s fake, no need to look further...


And the slot screw bridge and misaligned pots.


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## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

StevieMac said:


> Thankfully, my main gear interests are with vintage amps and, to the best of my knowledge, nobody has found a way to make money "faking" those...not on a large scale at least.
> 
> Steve


Not so fast... I've seen wiring harnesses from old televisions on Ebay. Now, why would anyone have a need for dirty, old, cloth covered wire?

OK, maybe not on a_ large_ scale...


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

There are several ways. Finish is usually a dead giveaway. They are all blown in poly finishes. The headstock looks wrong, neck join etc etc. I have heard and seen a couple of pics of some junk coming out of China that's starting to look closer....scary...



Jimmy_D said:


> It’s actually quite simple to tell a fake Gibby from a real one, I’ve never seen a fake with fret nibs, so if it has neck binding and no nibs it’s fake, no need to look further...


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## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

nonreverb said:


> There are several ways. Finish is usually a dead giveaway. They are all blown in poly finishes. The headstock looks wrong, neck join etc etc. I have heard and seen a couple of pics of some junk coming out of China that's starting to look closer....scary...


Not really. The bang on ones that I have seen are stolen pictures of the real thing. Usually from E-bay auctions and even some from Gibson's own site.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Jimmy_D said:


> It’s actually quite simple to tell a fake Gibby from a real one, I’ve never seen a fake with fret nibs, so if it has neck binding and no nibs it’s fake, no need to look further...


I've never heard of fret nibs. What are they?


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

Is this the original guitar back up for sale ? Or is this another one?

Ace Frehley Les Paul Copy - Ottawa Musical Instruments For Sale - Kijiji Ottawa Canada.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

I believe it is the same one being sold by Wayne 86-with an honest description


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Steadfastly said:


> I've never heard of fret nibs. What are they?


Frets are even with the side of the board and the binding is trimmed around them, the little "nibs" are the formed.

View attachment 2075


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Jimmy_D said:


> Frets are even with the side of the board and the binding is trimmed around them, the little "nibs" are the formed.
> 
> View attachment 2075


Got it. I was thinking of something else. Thanks for the explanation.


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## wayne086 (Jan 22, 2010)

Hey Guys,
Decided to get rid of the Ace,put alot into it for making it playable(thanks Bagpipe),thought I could hold onto it ,but everytime I look at it reminds me that I was such an Idiot.But I am being honest on my description,and answered all the ques about it.Stamping Copy on it stops the nonsense of people getting ripped off down the road.After this happened I thought I was going to stop kijiji and the whole mess,but it strengthened my belief that there is good people,I got alot support from you guys and believe it or not from the kijiji community.His name is out there,so no future bull from him,one mistake can ruin a rep,but I hope it will be a lesson learned.I am going to be vigilant on checking the pics first and research it before I jump into it.But I'm sure it might happen again,because they are getting better at copying them.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Good for you, Wayne! I'm glad that you've come to a decision on this. I'm sure you are doing the right thing.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Kudos, Wayne. You are a stand up guy. I'm sure it will come back on you in the best way!


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