# AstraZeneca in my arm



## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Second shot should the the charm
It really should free me from harm
Not yet ready to buy the farm

Ugh, day after was miserable but was fine right afterwards. The AZ seems to be the only vaccine where a 12 week interval IMPROVES efficacy. Still not as good as Pfizer but 75% protection against the 'vid and 100% against hospitalization are damn good odds I say.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I hate to say this, but maybe I've gotten to the point where I have so many aches and pains and medical issues that I don't notice a few extra "side effects" when they come along.

Glad you got your shot. My wife got AZ and I got Pfizer. Both of us had a slightly sore shoulder and that's all we noticed.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

My wife got her AZ shot and felt the same. It started with chills about 8 hours after then the aches, pains and fatigue the next day. 

Forgive the rant, and not begrudging you, but the system is f*cked up. I saw the news reports Sunday evening but there was no official government release.It was just "an aid to the minister tweeted..." I started looking into appointments Sunday evening and everything was "closed" still to 55+ but people quickly found out you simply had to put in a false birthdate to get around it. I'm one who generally plays by the rules so I hesitated and by the time I figured out I should just go ahead, every appointment within a reasonable proximity was gone. This is still Sunday night, so I put my name on every waitlist around me, I think 12 or 15 now. No centralized booking, you have to go to every location separately and sign up. Four days later and still haven't heard anything but keep hearing through twitter accounts that pharmacies around me that I am on the waitlist have taken walk-ups and booking appointments in person even as of yesterday and people who booked Monday/Tuesday and got the next day. What is the point of a waitlist. And then, The CTV News shows ex pro-hockey player, cabinet minister, political leader getting theirs the next day too. Maybe legit but I don't find it inspirational at all and my cynical mind believes that none of them were hitting the refresh on their iPads Sunday night booking appointments. Of course, now the pharmacies are all saying they are at or near the end of their supplies. The whole thing is hot dumpster fire mess.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Milkman said:


> I hate to say this, but maybe I've gotten to the point where i have so many aches and pains and medical issues that I don't notice a few extra "side effects" when they come along.
> 
> Glad you got your shot. My wife got AZ and I got Pfizer. Both of us had a slightly sore shoulder and that's all we noticed.


Funny, I thought the same thing. Headache, achy, grumpy...that's a normal day so maybe it won't be so bad.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

ZeroGravity said:


> My wife got her AZ shot and felt the same. It started with chills about 8 hours after then the aches, pains and fatigue the next day.
> 
> Forgive the rant, and not begrudging you, but the system is f*cked up. I saw the news reports Sunday evening but there was no official government release.It was just "an aid to the minister tweeted..." I started looking into appointments Sunday evening and everything was "closed" still to 55+ but people quickly found out you simply had to put in a false birthdate to get around it. I'm one who generally plays by the rules so I hesitated and by the time I figured out I should just go ahead, every appointment within a reasonable proximity was gone. This is still Sunday night, so I put my name on every waitlist around me, I think 12 or 15 now. No centralized booking, you have to go to every location separately and sign up. Four days later and still haven't heard anything but keep hearing through twitter accounts that pharmacies around me that I am on the waitlist have taken walk-ups and booking appointments in person even as of yesterday and people who booked Monday/Tuesday and got the next day. What is the point of a waitlist. And then, The CTV News shows ex pro-hockey player, cabinet minister, political leader getting theirs the next day too. Maybe legit but I don't find it inspirational at all and my cynical mind believes that none of them were hitting the refresh on their iPads Sunday night booking appointments. Of course, now the pharmacies are all saying they are at or near the end of their supplies. The whole thing is hot dumpster fire mess.


The on-line reservation systems are no good. You need to call. Shoppers is going 24/7 tomorrow I think so that could be a good option if there's a participating one near you.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

1SweetRide said:


> The on-line reservation systems are no good. You need to call. Shoppers is going 24/7 tomorrow I think so that could be a good option if there's a participating one near you.


And that is a perfect example of how messed up it is.Maybe a bit rose-coloured, if they have instituted an online booking systems with a waitlist, they should be clearing the waitlist before taking at the moment calls or walk up booking, or at least those ones get slotted in order of arrival after those already on the waitlist. I think that now they are going to be bound by supply in the short term.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ZeroGravity said:


> And that is a perfect example of how messed up it is.Maybe a bit rose-coloured, if they have instituted an online booking systems with a waitlist, they should be clearing the waitlist before taking at the moment calls or walk up booking, or at least those ones get slotted in order of arrival after those already on the waitlist. I think that now they are going to be bound by supply in the short term.



While gettin the AZ at a local pharmacy my wife saw a man turned away. She wasn't sure why.

There's a screening process as soon as you get there so putting a false age in would only get you to the desk and then embarrassed.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Milkman said:


> While gettin the AZ at a local pharmacy my wife saw a man turned away. She wasn't sure why.
> 
> There's a screening process as soon as you get there so putting a false age in would only get you to the desk and then embarrassed.


I think that would apply if you tried to get in under 40. On Sunday night when the "announcement" was made, because of the time, none of the booking systems had been updated to reflect 40+ instead of 55+ and no statement about when 40+ could actually start booking. Eligibility validation ranged from a simple checkbox saying you were eligible to entering your birth date. To get around the birth date all you had to do is (falsely) enter 1965 or before and you were in. I doubt that they are checking what date was entered to get in vs. actual. In a perfect world if someone entered a false date to get an appointment they should have been booted out. More shitty roll out, guidelines, and communication by the Ontario government


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## crann (May 10, 2014)

ZeroGravity said:


> And that is a perfect example of how messed up it is.Maybe a bit rose-coloured, if they have instituted an online booking systems with a waitlist


My wife is a pharmacist at shoppers and this whole rollout has been a disaster. From her, there was an online booking system, but seeing as the first group allowed to register was 65+ this did not go well. Phones were blowing up and no one knew how to book online. Now it's a phone system, and the target age has shifted, this new group wants the online system. Shopper's IT team is hilariously bad. It's a 10 page document of how to correctly interface with the covid vaccination registry. In short, be nice to your pharmacist, they're caught in the middle of this for no reason. 

Why can't you get the shot from your family doctor.......hmmmmmm


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ZeroGravity said:


> I think that would apply if you tried to get in under 40. On Sunday night when the "announcement" was made, because of the time, none of the booking systems had been updated to reflect 40+ instead of 55+ and no statement about when 40+ could actually start booking. Eligibility validation ranged from a simple checkbox saying you were eligible to entering your birth date. To get around the birth date all you had to do is (falsely) enter 1965 or before and you were in. I doubt that they are checking what date was entered to get in vs. actual. In a perfect world if someone entered a false date to get an appointment they should have been booted out. More shitty roll out, guidelines, and communication by the Ontario government


Maybe I didn't explain clearly. To get the AZ shot at the pharmacy that my wife used, she had to present her health card at the check in and they were entering age data there. Not in the proper age group? Buh Bye.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Milkman said:


> Maybe I didn't explain clearly. To get the AZ shot at the pharmacy that my wife used, she had to present her health card at the check in and they were entering age data there. Not in the proper age group? Buh Bye.


I totally understand that.

I am referring to the eligibility to simply book an appointment. Zero guidance from the government of Ontario. They never said when 40+ could start booking and because it was Sunday night, all the booking systems were still "limiting" to 55+ so people simply put in they were 55+ to get an appointment. I didn't hear of anyone being turned away Monday either but there were zero appointments available. I doubt they were suddenly all snapped up by 55+ late Sunday night. 

Was that legit to do so, maybe, maybe not, there was nothing to say yes or no and no one who intentionally put in a false birth date to get an appointment were turned away as far as I know. I hesitated while others went ahead they got appointments, I didn't. Maybe I'm the fool here. By contrast, BC has very clear guidelines as to when each age group can start booking now that they have opened to all 18+.

I'm also just frustrated, pissed, and venting that they opened to the largest cohort yet of nearly 20% of the population while knowing the supplies were dwindling. All it seems to have accomplished is to put a overwhelming burden on an ill-conceived, poorly implemented system at least here in Ottawa. The poor pharmacists have been hung out to dry by both the government and their franchisers (ie Shoppers, IDA, Guardian etc) as well. From what I can see from social media, they are struggling to fill appointments still in the GTA.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ZeroGravity said:


> I totally understand that.
> 
> I am referring to the eligibility to simply book an appointment. Zero guidance from the government of Ontario. They never said when 40+ could start booking and because it was Sunday night, all the booking systems were still "limiting" to 55+ so people simply put in they were 55+ to get an appointment. Was that legit to do so, maybe, maybe not, there was nothing to say yes or no and no one who intentionally put in a false birth date to get an appointment were turned away as far as I know. I hesitated while others went ahead they got appointments, I didn't. Maybe I'm the fool here.
> 
> I'm also just frustrated, pissed, and venting that they opened to the largest cohort yet of nearly 20% of the population while knowing the supplies were dwindling. All it seems to have accomplished is to put a overwhelming burden on an ill-conceived, poorly implemented system at least here in Ottawa. The poor pharmacists have been hung out to dry by both the government and their franchisers (ie Shoppers, IDA, Guardian etc) as well. From what I can see from social media, they are struggling to fill appointments still in the GTA.



I think many Ontarians are frustrated by the fact that we have to be so aggressive to get information and to get vaccinated. It's like we're scrambling and competing with each other to get vaccinated or something.

Those who are more internet savvy than others may have an easier time getting jabbed?

That's concerning to me.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

I'm internet savvy but that got me nowhere. Only calling smaller pharmacies worked for me and the wife.


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## johnnyshaka (Nov 2, 2014)

1SweetRide said:


> I'm internet savvy but that got me nowhere. Only calling smaller pharmacies worked for me and the wife.


Same here...called a small pharmacy that didn't even have a website and got an appointment the next morning.

I had the first shot yesterday morning and went through several cycles of headache, chills, fever and aches last night. Feel much better today, though, and I'm sure after a good night sleep tonight I'll be good as new.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Got my first AZ shot on Tuesday morning and felt fine until Wednesday morning when I got progressively worse. Head ache, muscle aches, joint stiffness, and a slight nausea. This morning I felt pretty much fine. Mrs. Mooh is still waiting.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

ZeroGravity said:


> My wife got her AZ shot and felt the same. It started with chills about 8 hours after then the aches, pains and fatigue the next day.
> 
> Forgive the rant, and not begrudging you, but the system is f*cked up. I saw the news reports Sunday evening but there was no official government release.It was just "an aid to the minister tweeted..." I started looking into appointments Sunday evening and everything was "closed" still to 55+ but people quickly found out you simply had to put in a false birthdate to get around it. I'm one who generally plays by the rules so I hesitated and by the time I figured out I should just go ahead, every appointment within a reasonable proximity was gone. This is still Sunday night, so I put my name on every waitlist around me, I think 12 or 15 now. No centralized booking, you have to go to every location separately and sign up. Four days later and still haven't heard anything but keep hearing through twitter accounts that pharmacies around me that I am on the waitlist have taken walk-ups and booking appointments in person even as of yesterday and people who booked Monday/Tuesday and got the next day. What is the point of a waitlist. And then, The CTV News shows ex pro-hockey player, cabinet minister, political leader getting theirs the next day too. Maybe legit but I don't find it inspirational at all and my cynical mind believes that none of them were hitting the refresh on their iPads Sunday night booking appointments. Of course, now the pharmacies are all saying they are at or near the end of their supplies. The whole thing is hot dumpster fire mess.


I did all this 3 weeks ago and have heard nothing from the 10 or so places I registered with.... don't hold your breath. It sounds like most places dont have the vaccine, and calling in might work better. Which is ridiculous because the whole purpose of the website system looked to be a way to prioritize people. Just calling and getting the next spot seems to blow that up pretty good...


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

johnnyshaka said:


> Same here...called a small pharmacy that didn't even have a website and got an appointment the next morning.
> 
> I had the first shot yesterday morning and went through several cycles of headache, chills, fever and aches last night. Feel much better today, though, and I'm sure after a good night sleep tonight I'll be good as new.


The thing about feeling ill the following day means that the vaccine is active and you didn't get a bad batch or a saline shot.


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## johnnyshaka (Nov 2, 2014)

1SweetRide said:


> The thing about feeling ill the following day means that the vaccine is active and you didn't get a bad batch or a saline shot.


Or it was chocolate pudding! lol


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

tomee2 said:


> I did all this 3 weeks ago and have heard nothing from the 10 or so places I registered with.... don't hold your breath. It sounds like most places dont have the vaccine, and calling in might work better. Which is ridiculous because the whole purpose of the website system looked to be a way to prioritize people. Just calling and getting the next spot seems to blow that up pretty good...


 You would actually think that pharmacies would prefer not be taking appointments by phone so they can actually spend the time doing pharmacy work instead of answering the phone to fill appointments and keep the line open for prescriptions. Book everything online and let the system take care of it.


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## crann (May 10, 2014)

tomee2 said:


> It sounds like most places dont have the vaccine, and calling in might work better. Which is ridiculous because the whole purpose of the website system looked to be a way to prioritize people.


Places absolutely have vaccine. If anything we're wasting a great deal of it by not having the right distribution plan in place.


ZeroGravity said:


> Book everything online and let the system take care of it.


The legacy system that the shoppers network is built on is simply out of date with current needs. Building a system on top of it to try and sort, contact and queue people for vaccines is ridiculous. Add in all the other normal tasks they have and it's a disaster. My wife's store started vaccines on Monday. The first patient was a test subject so they left ~1 hour to do the trial run. The clinical part is easy, jab, inject, done. The administrative piece took longer than 1h because the system wasn't made to interface with OHIP health records. Flu vaccines are completely different because there is no requirement for cataloguing the encounter outside of billing.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

crann said:


> Places absolutely have vaccine. If anything we're wasting a great deal of it by not having the right distribution plan in place.
> 
> The legacy system that the shoppers network is built on is simply out of date with current needs. Building a system on top of it to try and sort, contact and queue people for vaccines is ridiculous. Add in all the other normal tasks they have and it's a disaster. My wife's store started vaccines on Monday. The first patient was a test subject so they left ~1 hour to do the trial run. The clinical part is easy, jab, inject, done. The administrative piece took longer than 1h because the system wasn't made to interface with OHIP health records. Flu vaccines are completely different because there is no requirement for cataloguing the encounter outside of billing.


Would be more efficient to update the records after hours. Not during the visit.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

crann said:


> Places absolutely have vaccine. If anything we're wasting a great deal of it by not having the right distribution plan in place.
> 
> The legacy system that the shoppers network is built on is simply out of date with current needs. Building a system on top of it to try and sort, contact and queue people for vaccines is ridiculous. Add in all the other normal tasks they have and it's a disaster. My wife's store started vaccines on Monday. The first patient was a test subject so they left ~1 hour to do the trial run. The clinical part is easy, jab, inject, done. The administrative piece took longer than 1h because the system wasn't made to interface with OHIP health records. Flu vaccines are completely different because there is no requirement for cataloguing the encounter outside of billing.


It's truly unfortunate since pharmacies have been administering flu, shingles and other vaccines for a while. I'm surprised that things like Prevnar and Shingrix don't get recorded to OHIP and onto your health record. This should have been a no-brainer after this long or if General "this is just a routine logistics mission" Hillier had a shred of foresight to prepare for it adequately and have NGO's prepare to administer it. The parent companies have really let their franchisees down with crap support and to deal with frustrated customers.


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## crann (May 10, 2014)

ZeroGravity said:


> I'm surprised that things like Prevnar and Shingrix don't get recorded to OHIP and onto your health record.


The system is really weird. A few different databases with different information that don't talk to each other. In kids for example, once you get a vaccine (MMR, chicken pox etc) you have to report it to a public health agency or it's not tracked. You can try and check your immunization history but it's almost certainly not up to date (on the database). You can check here, but with this asterisk:

"NOTE: Your record will only include immunizations administered by a public health unit in Ontario, or immunizations reported to a public health unit in Ontario. Please contact the health care provider who administered your vaccines for record of other immunizations."

Welcome to the wild world of Electronic Medical Records (EMRs) where anything goes.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Yes!

The Gods of Whining have heard my pleas and bestowed to me a call back for an appointment next week. The Pharmasave close to me and actually the first list I signed up on. The have no booking system, just a request form since they are a smaller pharmacy-only items place. Much relieved. It wasn't so much when the vaccine was hitting my arm as knowing I had a confirmed spot.

Now, on to yelling at clouds


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

ZeroGravity said:


> Yes!
> 
> *The Gods of Whining* have heard my pleas and bestowed to me a call back for an appointment next week. The Pharmasave close to me and actually the first list I signed up on. The have no booking system, just a request form since they are a smaller pharmacy-only items place. Much relieved. It wasn't so much when the vaccine was hitting my arm as knowing I had a confirmed spot.
> 
> Now, on to yelling at clouds


Your gods are powerful


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

The human race is never prepared for when the shit hits the fan and it goes flying back into their faces. They stumble around going WTF WTF !?! especially if it is something the current generation of **** sapiens have never dealt with before on a global level and have no idea of what the hell to do. We can only hope SOME things are learned and it can be handled better the next time.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I booked mine with Rexall and had zero problems. Pharmacy was dead when I got there. I even got jabbed a few mi utes ahead of time.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

I’m booked in for Saturday at the Edmonton Expo Center which is funny cause they also have a walk in line at the expo Center which my friend went to yesterday.
He just walked right up, went in showed ID got jabbed and left.

Made me wonder why the first available appointment I could book was Saturday but I guess maybe having a combination of both walk up and appointment keeps things spread out and avoiding log jam when everyone goes for either one or the other.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Robert1950 said:


> The human race is never prepared for when the shit hits the fan and it goes flying back into their faces. They stumble around going WTF WTF !?! especially if it is something the current generation of **** sapiens have never dealt with before on a global level and have no idea of what the hell to do. We can only hope SOME things are learned and it can be handled better the next time.


This happens to nearly every project I work on. The entire team goes through the exercise of risk assessment and impacts and everyone nods their heads that the risks are all acceptable and move ahead but when the risk(s) is(are) realized and things are late or huge technical hurdles it's as if no one over heard of them before or expected to happen, then panic sets in. Happens all the time internally during but gets even more stupid when it happens with a product delivered to the field. Then we do post postmortems, root cause analysis and actions plans. Wanna guess what happens on the next project........

Bottom line is costs money to be prepared and it is considered "wasted" if it isn't used so it doesn't get done.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

ZeroGravity said:


> This happens to nearly every project I work on. The entire team goes through the exercise of risk assessment and impacts and everyone nods their heads that the risks are all acceptable and move ahead but when the risk(s) is(are) realized and things are late or huge technical hurdles it's as if no one over heard of them before or expected to happen, then panic sets in. Happens all the time internally during but gets even more stupid when it happens with a product delivered to the field. Then we do post postmortems, root cause analysis and actions plans. Wanna guess what happens on the next project........
> 
> Bottom line is costs money to be prepared and it is considered "wasted" if it isn't used so it doesn't get done.


I was kinda thinking that myself. How about this one:

The world wakes up tomorrow to the news that Germany has just invaded Poland. We've been here before - but will we do anything differently? I don't think so. We'll putz around being diplomatic and make some threats, some sanctions, maybe threaten, or declare war, putz around some more..........................

It takes a lot to react to a big event - especially when you don't know how big it might get.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Robert1950 said:


> The human race is never prepared for when the shit hits the fan and it goes flying back into their faces. They stumble around going WTF WTF !?! especially if it is something the current generation of **** sapiens have never dealt with before on a global level and have no idea of what the hell to do. We can only hope SOME things are learned and it can be handled better the next time.


No one ever gets praised for preventing something from happening. We reward leaders for reacting quickly when an issue does arise. We forget about them having a role in prevention. The media doesn’t help when they constantly criticize any spending that doesn’t reward baby making or tax breaks.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I hate to say this, but maybe I've gotten to the point where i have so many aches and pains and medical issues that I don't notice a few extra "side effects" when they come along.


That's one of the bigger risks to health in adulthood. Noticing an emerging problem in the midst of all those daily aches and pains is like listening for the phone, or the baby crying, while you're in the shower. Either everything sounds like the phone/baby, or nothing does. It's a signal-detection issue. 

But nice to hear you got your shot, Mark. I get mine Friday afternoon.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Robert1950 said:


> The human race is never prepared for when the shit hits the fan and it goes flying back into their faces. They stumble around going WTF WTF !?! especially if it is something the current generation of **** sapiens have never dealt with before on a global level and have no idea of what the hell to do. We can only hope SOME things are learned and it can be handled better the next time.


an odd post and somewhat off topic. 

I don't think you can ever be fully prepared but we're better prepared now than we were 100 years ago. and I'm sure we'll learn something to better handle the next one. they put together a vaccine for a global pandemic in under a year, now they're offering it to you for free and you wanna complain. get over it


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## Backbeat (Jan 18, 2014)

There's a Shoppers close to home, so once I heard they were administering the vaccine, I decided to show up in person to register, and got my first jab on the 16th of March, as I fit into the age category at the time. 
After my vax , I enquired about registering for my second dose. They said 'they would be in touch'. I'll be in touch with them before they're in touch with me, I believe. I got the AstraZeneca: sore arm for a day or so, a little fatigue the next day, otherwise all good. Hasn't killed me yet.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

I got the Moderna today


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Got my shot scheduled for next Tuesday at the health unit. I was told will be either Pfizer or Moderna. I wasn't really that enthused to get it. My wife is a health care worker (even though she's management and has very little contact with frontline workers). She's getting a lot of pressure to get the shot even though she's apprehensive about it. So I decided to get it in support of her.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

That makes you a good husband.


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## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

Looking forward to the comments and reports 6+ months from now.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Midnight Rider said:


> Looking forward to the comments and reports 6+ months from now.


6 months from now this will either all be over or we will have learned something very nasty


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Pfizer-pfoked mid-afternoon on Friday. VERY smooth process, I must say. In and out in just a little over 25 minutes, from walking in the door, providing info, waiting for a free booth, getting the shot, waiting 15 minutes for any reactions, to getting clearance at the exit. Extremely well organized. The sports complex where it took place has a large parking lot, and outdoor P.A. system. People were scheduled in slots 10 minutes apart. Five minutes prior to their slot, they'd announce the next group over the PA to come out of their vehicles. I had just finished parking when my time slot was called. Timed it perfectly.

Arm started to hurt about 10hrs later and got a very poor night's sleep, but right as rain by dinner time Saturday. One should probably not plan on scheduling for a vaccination day when you have to work the following day, or will have reason to reach up high for anything. Raising one's injection arm above one's shoulders can hurt a bit.

But it's nice to have it out of the way. Now, back to soldering.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Same here, got done yesterday at one of the Toronto facilities. In and out in 25 minutes. Got Phizer but no arm pain or other symptoms so far.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Yeah, the arm thing is not a foregone conclusion for all. As I mentioned, I didn't get any discomfort until maybe midnight. My wife, on the other hand, had shoulder pain within the hour, although like myself, it was pretty much gone in a day or so.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Yeah, the arm thing is not a foregone conclusion for all. As I mentioned, I didn't get any discomfort until maybe midnight. My wife, on the other hand, had shoulder pain within the hour, although like myself, it was pretty much gone in a day or so.


I basically had the same pain in my shoulder as any other vaccine I've ever received.

To hear it told on TGP, it's the 2nd shot that can be a real doozy. I'd welcome the opportunity to find out ASAP 



https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?threads/holy-crap-that-second-pfizer-shot-is-a-doozy.2228587/page-21#post-32392355


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

mhammer said:


> Pfizer-pfoked mid-afternoon on Friday. VERY smooth process, I must say. In and out in just a little over 25 minutes, from walking in the door, providing info, waiting for a free booth, getting the shot, waiting 15 minutes for any reactions, to getting clearance at the exit. Extremely well organized. The sports complex where it took place has a large parking lot, and outdoor P.A. system. People were scheduled in slots 10 minutes apart. Five minutes prior to their slot, they'd announce the next group over the PA to come out of their vehicles. I had just finished parking when my time slot was called. Timed it perfectly.
> 
> Arm started to hurt about 10hrs later and got a very poor night's sleep, but right as rain by dinner time Saturday. One should probably not plan on scheduling for a vaccination day when you have to work the following day, or will have reason to reach up high for anything. Raising one's injection arm above one's shoulders can hurt a bit.
> 
> But it's nice to have it out of the way. Now, back to soldering.


I have heard from several people now that the OPH run clinic at the Sportsplex has been very smooth and credit is deserved where credit is due. Hopefully all of them are running the same way.


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## Midnight Rider (Apr 2, 2015)

mhammer said:


> Pfizer-pfoked mid-afternoon on Friday. VERY smooth process, I must say. In and out in just a little over 25 minutes, from walking in the door, providing info, waiting for a free booth, getting the shot, waiting 15 minutes for any reactions, to getting clearance at the exit. Extremely well organized. The sports complex where it took place has a large parking lot, and outdoor P.A. system. People were scheduled in slots 10 minutes apart. Five minutes prior to their slot, they'd announce the next group over the PA to come out of their vehicles. I had just finished parking when my time slot was called. Timed it perfectly.
> 
> Arm started to hurt about 10hrs later and got a very poor night's sleep, but right as rain by dinner time Saturday. One should probably not plan on scheduling for a vaccination day when you have to work the following day, or will have reason to reach up high for anything. Raising one's injection arm above one's shoulders can hurt a bit.
> 
> But it's nice to have it out of the way. Now, back to soldering.


I would certainly hope the process went smoothly,... I wouldn't think it takes an Astrophysics degree to jab a needle into a clinical study patients arm.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

It takes foresight, and I was impressed with how much went into the organization. For instance, how to assure that ALL vaccinees wait the 15 requisite minutes to assure there are no immediate reactions to the vaccine. Pretty easy when it's a blood donor clinic with maybe 8 people waiting, and cookies and juice for them to occupy themselves with. A bit trickier when there are 20 more every 5 minutes. The answer? The person injecting you writes your departure time on the info sheet you leave with, that you have to show to the person at the exit who confirms your e-mail address to send the confirmation of vaccination to. There's a huge digital clock that all can see, so that you can see when you're good to go,and the person at the exit can too. Naturally, the waiting area has chairs arranged in pairs, the requisite distance apart. Why pairs? Because some folks came as a pair. A pair just a bit over from me consisted of a visually-impaired woman led by another person.

There were a lot of moving parts to the operation, and all were well planned out. Most would describe it as "military precision". The jab IS the easy part. Getting so many people through, properly and efficiently, was the tricky part. I hope other sites are as well-organized as this one was.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Got my AZ shot 1 almost a week ago. Glad I have it because in the past week my kid's school has advised 3 confirmed cases. My kid hasn't been identified as a close contact yet. Unfortunately my wife sill isn't eligible for a vaccine.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

So, 14 days after the first dose seems to provide 100% protection against serious effects from Covid and about 75% protection against getting it at all. Couple of other interesting facts:

AZ is more effective if the second dose interval is longer than say for Pfizer. Around 12 weeks for AZ
AZ is about 75% effective three weeks after the first dose
81% efficacy two weeks following the 2nd dose as long as the 2nd dose is 3 months from the 1st one
Re-transmission is significantly reduced even after one dose
Hope this helps


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

On Sunday I had to go to Shoppers to mail a package, I walked in just as they opened and thought, "hey might as well ask?" so I went straight to the pharmacy and there was one guy in front of me asking if they were taking walk-ins. They seemed confused but everything was moving forward. They asked if I had my waiting list number which I did. They took my info and I got my AZ shot. I think they cut off walk-ins behind me.

That night I suddenly felt extremely cold and was shivering so bad I could barely lock up the house and go to bed. Didn't sleep much, so took the next day off which was a good idea as I basically had the flu for 24 hours. Felt 80% the next day and 100% today.

Now waiting for my call from shoppers to get my 2nd dose and hope that is not as much of a shit show as getting the first one was.

PS Rexall emailed me the next day to make an appointment which I declined of course.


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## ZeroGravity (Mar 25, 2016)

Guncho said:


> That night I suddenly felt extremely cold and was shivering so bad I could barely lock up the house and go to bed. Didn't sleep much, so took the next day off which was a good idea as I basically had the flu for 24 hours. Felt 80% the next day and 100% today.
> 
> Now waiting for my call from shoppers to get my 2nd dose and hope that is not as much of a shit show as getting the first one was.
> 
> PS Rexall emailed me the next day to make an appointment which I declined of course.


My wife had pretty much the same reaction. I had mine Monday with the aches, fatigue, low-grade fever the next day but not bad enough to have the chills and shakes. Felt pretty good about 28-30hrs after the shot but made the mistake of overdoing it with some yard work and a grocery run (mostly get out of the house). Was in bed at 9pm. Not too bad today, sore arm, but fading now. I expect to be back to normal tomorrow.

Pharmasave booked my second appointment on the spot for August, waiting to hear from Shopper's for my wife's 2nd.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Our bodies have a weird and unpleasant way of screaming "What the dickens IS that? That's not ME! That's not even a substandard version of me. That's not anything I've ever seen before. No sir, I don't like it, and I'm gonna fight it as hard as I can until it goes away."

But, much like dandruff shampoos where "the tingling means it's working", the reaction means our immune system has sat up, taken notice, and shown up for work.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

mhammer said:


> Our bodies have a weird and unpleasant way of screaming "What the dickens IS that? That's not ME! That's not even a substandard version of me. That's not anything I've ever seen before. No sir, I don't like it, and I'm gonna fight it as hard as I can until it goes away."
> 
> But, much like dandruff shampoos where "the tingling means it's working", the reaction means our immune system has sat up, taken notice, and shown up for work.


And equally important, you haven’t accidentally been given a shot of the dilutant.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Booked for Pfizer or Moderna this afternoon.
If you dont hear from me again, well......the truth is out there


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

1SweetRide said:


> So, 14 days after the first dose seems to provide 100% protection against serious effects from Covid and about 75% protection against getting it at all. Couple of other interesting facts:
> 
> AZ is more effective if the second dose interval is longer than say for Pfizer. Around 12 weeks for AZ
> AZ is about 75% effective three weeks after the first dose
> ...


the wild card, is the covid variants...which from what ive read, the moderna vax is _possibly_ more effective with.
I would question anyone stating 100% anything in this situation.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Diablo said:


> the wild card, is the covid variants...which from what ive read, the moderna vax is _possibly_ more effective with.
> I would question anyone stating 100% anything in this situation.


We should differentiate between 100% *complete* protection (i.e., didn't get sick, never will) and what has been observed so far, over millions of vaccinations, which is 0% getting sick enough to require any hospitalization, with any of the vaccines. That's obviously not ideal, but it's not nothing.

And, to flog the horse a little more, observed % effectiveness rates will depend on the prevailing incidence and contagion where the vaccine has been provided and studied. I would expect that such rates would be different in the UK and Israel, for example, than in Sweden and Belgium, that have had fairly high case numbers of late. Vaccination does not create an impermeable force field. It means that one will have a good enough immune response that small amounts of virus expelled by others in your vicinity can be easily fought off, or if not right away, within a brief-enough time that one doesn't get really ill. If there is a high contagion rate in one's neighbourhood/region/country, then acquiring a little bit of virus from this guy, that guy, and that other guy over there, may exceed what one is able to fight off. And if different regions are using vaccine X more than vaccine Y, one can run into conflicting info about "effectiveness".

That doesn't mean it's all BS - the vaccines ARE working quite well. But I wouldn't make so much of reports that this one is 85% effective and that one 79%. "True" effectiveness numbers probably won't be all that reliable until a year from now, when all this has settled a bit more. In particular, once Brazil, India, and much of Africa have had more widespread vaccination, the numbers may change. At the moment, they are wild cards.


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## pickslide (May 9, 2006)

Got my AZ last Thursday. Didnt get sick or anything other than slight soreness at the injection spot. Glad to have had the chance to get this already.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

mhammer said:


> We should differentiate between 100% *complete* protection (i.e., didn't get sick, never will) and what has been observed so far, over millions of vaccinations, which is 0% getting sick enough to require any hospitalization, with any of the vaccines. That's obviously not ideal, but it's not nothing.
> 
> And, to flog the horse a little more, observed % effectiveness rates will depend on the prevailing incidence and contagion where the vaccine has been provided and studied. I would expect that such rates would be different in the UK and Israel, for example, than in Sweden and Belgium, that have had fairly high case numbers of late. Vaccination does not create an impermeable force field. It means that one will have a good enough immune response that small amounts of virus expelled by others in your vicinity can be easily fought off, or if not right away, within a brief-enough time that one doesn't get really ill. If there is a high contagion rate in one's neighbourhood/region/country, then acquiring a little bit of virus from this guy, that guy, and that other guy over there, may exceed what one is able to fight off. And if different regions are using vaccine X more than vaccine Y, one can run into conflicting info about "effectiveness".
> 
> That doesn't mean it's all BS - the vaccines ARE working quite well. But I wouldn't make so much of reports that this one is 85% effective and that one 79%. "True" effectiveness numbers probably won't be all that reliable until a year from now, when all this has settled a bit more. In particular, once Brazil, India, and much of Africa have had more widespread vaccination, the numbers may change. At the moment, they are wild cards.


hmmm...if effectiveness varies by country/region etc, that makes the numbers seem a little like


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Some may think "the numbers are suspect". I think it more appropriate to consider them "tentative". Some ballgames have pretty clear outcomes by the 4th inning, some ballgames end up different by the 7th, and some can flip around by the 9th. For now, they're all hitting standing doubles, and a lot of triples. We'll have to wait to see who the "home run king" is.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> We should differentiate between 100% *complete* protection (i.e., didn't get sick, never will) and what has been observed so far, over millions of vaccinations, which is 0% getting sick enough to require any hospitalization, with any of the vaccines. That's obviously not ideal, but it's not nothing.
> 
> And, to flog the horse a little more, observed % effectiveness rates will depend on the prevailing incidence and contagion where the vaccine has been provided and studied. I would expect that such rates would be different in the UK and Israel, for example, than in Sweden and Belgium, that have had fairly high case numbers of late. Vaccination does not create an impermeable force field. It means that one will have a good enough immune response that small amounts of virus expelled by others in your vicinity can be easily fought off, or if not right away, within a brief-enough time that one doesn't get really ill. If there is a high contagion rate in one's neighbourhood/region/country, then acquiring a little bit of virus from this guy, that guy, and that other guy over there, may exceed what one is able to fight off. And if different regions are using vaccine X more than vaccine Y, one can run into conflicting info about "effectiveness".
> 
> That doesn't mean it's all BS - the vaccines ARE working quite well. But I wouldn't make so much of reports that this one is 85% effective and that one 79%. "True" effectiveness numbers probably won't be all that reliable until a year from now, when all this has settled a bit more. In particular, once Brazil, India, and much of Africa have had more widespread vaccination, the numbers may change. At the moment, they are wild cards.


It can be quite difficult to find this kind of information:









Few Canadians contracting COVID-19 after first vaccine dose: PHAC


The Public Health Agency of Canada says there have been 6,789 confirmed COVID-19 cases in those who have received the first dose of a vaccine out of more than 13 million people who have been vaccinated.




www.ctvnews.ca





_"The Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC) says there have been 6,789 confirmed COVID-19 cases in those who have received the first dose of a vaccine out of more than 13 million people who have been vaccinated."_​
How many of you have seen this - or a similar article? 

This article, at first, shocked the bejesus out of Maggs. Personally, as a numbers-guy, I thought those numbers were great - once they're brought in to perspective. After I broke them down for Maggs she was fine. I don't get why we don't see more news and analysis - it's good stuff.


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## eric_b (Dec 6, 2008)

I got the first jab of A-Z 4 weeks ago. 24 hrs later I ran a slight fever and felt sort of crap for about 18 hrs. Sounds like there's not much A-Z left here, but loads of the mRNA vaccines, so I'm hoping the results of the combined vaccine tests will be positive and I can get a second jab in the not-too-distant future.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

allthumbs56 said:


> It can be quite difficult to find this kind of information:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Consider keeping tabs here: COVID-19 daily epidemiology update - Canada.ca


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

allthumbs56 said:


> It can be quite difficult to find this kind of information:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see this as another case where the press could report this as a percentage, " only 0.05% vaccinated got covid" but instead chose to give the absolute number infected 6789, first. The reader grabs that info first, and then doesn't weigh it against the 13million number.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Consider keeping tabs here: COVID-19 daily epidemiology update - Canada.ca


Same figures as everywhere else since it all started. If you read what I linked to it's about people who have contracted covid after being vaccinated. My criticism is not just that that particular info is not at the forefront - it's also presented in a context that does not show people that they shouldn't be worried. It's like the AZ blood clotting - put that data in an easy to understand way and it will be a non-issue.

Can you point me in THAT direction?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Well, for that,I direct you to Dr. Campbell's daily updates on Youtube. He presents the data in detail.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

eric_b said:


> I got the first jab of A-Z 4 weeks ago. 24 hrs later I ran a slight fever and felt sort of crap for about 18 hrs. Sounds like there's not much A-Z left here, but loads of the mRNA vaccines, so I'm hoping the results of the combined vaccine tests will be positive and I can get a second jab in the not-too-distant future.


Yes, will be interesting to see if even mRNA vaccines can be mixed with vector vaccines such as AstraZ for dose #2.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

How many of those who got the vaccine then contracted covid were hospitalized? I'm pretty sure that number is extremely low.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Jesus. Haven't known anyone who passed from covid, and only 1 person, long long distance, who had it. But the woman in AB who passed from complications of the AZ shot was a good family friend, my wife babysat her daughter for years. Poor kid, late high school now, lost her father suddenly about 3 years ago. Fuck.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

knight_yyz said:


> How many of those who got the vaccine then contracted covid were hospitalized? I'm pretty sure that number is extremely low.


Last I heard, it was zero. Of course that excludes those who were hospitalized for reactions to the vaccine itself. But if you'll recall from about 2 months back, when folks where "advance shopping" for vaccines and thinking that X, with a 94% effectiveness was better than Y with a 65% effectiveness, authorities were saying that the seeming difference was rather moot, since none of those vaccinated who got infected were ever sick enough to go to the hospital.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Fuuuuck she was taken to hospital and sent home. With a blood clot in her brain.









‘I wish she could’ve gotten help’: Daughter of Alberta woman who died after AstraZeneca vaccine | Globalnews.ca


Eight days after receiving an AstraZeneca COVID-19 vaccine, 52-year-old Lisa Stonehouse had heart palpitations, chills, nausea and a severe headache, her daughter Jordan said.




globalnews.ca


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Last I heard, it was zero. Of course that excludes those who were hospitalized for reactions to the vaccine itself. But if you'll recall from about 2 months back, when folks where "advance shopping" for vaccines and thinking that X, with a 94% effectiveness was better than Y with a 65% effectiveness, authorities were saying that the seeming difference was rather moot, since none of those vaccinated who got infected were ever sick enough to go to the hospital.


It's on the prior page in this thread, from CTV. 2,274 cases, 53 deaths, 200+ hospitalizations, first shot only. Another 4500+ cases within the 14 day window, no further stats on that group.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I think the "no one got sick" result was from an earlier sample of noticeably less than 13M; probably from Israel, where there are many fewer than 13M residents.

Like I keep saying, immunity takes time to develop. I've been concerned that people who thought vaccines would make them instantly immune might ease up a little too much and get sick before the stuff had a chance to work. Even those who got sick outside the suggested 14-day window, we don't know what sort of immunity-building capacity they had to start with. Fourteen days is a recommended_ minimum_ period. It's not like a switch goes on at 2 weeks. It could take you 3-5 weeks in some folks. And then there is the ever-present "underlying health conditions". That aside, clearly, out of over 13 million, 200-ish hospitalizations, and 53 deaths (which I assume are encompassed within the 200+, not separate from it) are pretty good odds.

And let us remember, those who got sick or died, did not do so *because* of the vaccine. They got sick and died *in spite of* being vaccinated. There is clearly a degree of faith one may place in vaccination, but just as clearly one cannot rely on it entirely. There is still a need to take preventative measures as well.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

knight_yyz said:


> How many of those who got the vaccine then contracted covid were hospitalized? I'm pretty sure that number is extremely low.


From the article I posted earlier:

_"The Public Health Agency of Canada (PHAC) says there have been 6,789 confirmed COVID-19 cases in those who have received the first dose of a vaccine out of more than 13 million people who have been vaccinated._​​_In an emailed statement to CTVNews.ca, PHAC said 4,515 of these cases were reported within 14 days of being vaccinated and 2,274 cases were reported at a minimum of 14 days after receiving the first dose._​
_"Of the cases reported, PHAC said a relatively small number has resulted in serious COVID-19 or death._​​_As of April 26, out of the 2,274 cases reported above for which outcome information was available, *203 COVID-19 cases were reported to be hospitalized*, and 53 cases died due to COVID-19," the agency said on Monday."_​
The point is that that is only 15 people for each million that have been vaccinated. Maybe @mhammer could run the odds on that compared to getting and dying from Covid - my skills in probability are ancient.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

allthumbs56 said:


> Maybe @mhammer could run the odds on that compared to getting and dying from Covid - my skills in probability are ancient.


I believe the exact probability is what statisticians refer to as "tiny". If the odds of winning *anything* in the 6/49 or Lottomax, larger than a free ticket, were that small, no one would buy tickets.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> I believe the exact probability is what statisticians refer to as "tiny". If the odds of winning *anything* in the 6/49 or Lottomax, larger than a free ticket, were that small, no one would buy tickets.


15 out of a million is 0.000015.

And yup - that is very tiny. People need to know that.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

A good friend of mine's buddy got that shot. 40 years old. Went to bed and never woke up. This was last week. Prolly just coincidence though. My friend is shattered at the moment, so Im not gonna ask any questions right now.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I won't dismiss any connection out of hand. But with one form of illness so prominently and unavoidably in the news, we keep forgetting that there are still millions of other ways to get sick, get really sick, or die. And as we keep getting told, for very good reason, when there is so much of a backlog of Covid-19 cases at hospitals, and both family doctors' offices and walk-in clinics are closed, many other health issues are getting neglected or not checked out sufficiently.

Condolences to your friend. It's not easy losing a close friend when you're young. They're the sort of person you figure is always gonna be there with you over the years.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Adcandour said:


> A good friend of mine's buddy got that shot. 40 years old. Went to bed and never woke up. This was last week. Prolly just coincidence though. My friend is shattered at the moment, so Im not gonna ask any questions right now.


I'll watch for it in the news. Is he in Ontario? So far their only reporting 1 woman from Quebec and 1 woman from Alberta. The hospital in Alberta sent the woman home and told her to take over the counter meds. A little later, her daughter took her to a different hospital where they admitted her but it was too late. The damage from the stroke in her brain had been done. What a shame.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Guitar101 said:


> I'll watch for it in the news. Is he in Ontario? So far their only reporting 1 woman from Quebec and 1 woman from Alberta. The hospital in Alberta sent the woman home and told her to take over the counter meds. A little later, her daughter took her to a different hospital where they admitted her but it was too late. The damage from the stroke in her brain had been done. What a shame.


My buddy lives in Mississauga, but has friends everywhere, so who knows. I'll try to chat with him by the weekend to see what happened exactly.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

mhammer said:


> I won't dismiss any connection out of hand. But with one form of illness so prominently and unavoidably in the news, we keep forgetting that there are still millions of other ways to get sick, get really sick, or die. And as we keep getting told, for very good reason, when there is so much of a backlog of Covid-19 cases at hospitals, and both family doctors' offices and walk-in clinics are closed, many other health issues are getting neglected or not checked out sufficiently.
> 
> Condolences to your friend. It's not easy losing a close friend when you're young. They're the sort of person you figure is always gonna be there with you over the years.


Yeah, could be purely coincidental. My girlfriend brought up a good point. She has an autoimmune disease, and has to check if she can even get the shot. Maybe this guy didn't check when he should have? Who knows...

Yeah, this particular friend of mine has had one of the roughest lives I know. A by-product of a lousy foster care system. He's in a great place now, but he really didn't need this kick in the teeth.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

24hrs after Pfizer poke, and no ill effects other than it feels a little tender/bruised at the injection site.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Diablo said:


> 24hrs after Pfizer poke, and no ill effects other than it feels a little tender/bruised at the injection site.


Freddy Krueger could be under the bed....or in the closet....or behind that tree in the backyard. Stay vigilant.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

HighNoon said:


> Freddy Krueger could be under the bed....or in the closet....or behind that tree in the backyard. Stay vigilant.


One of the perks of a sore shoulder is that one tends not to fall asleep. So Freddy's well averted.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

HighNoon said:


> Freddy Krueger could be under the bed....or in the closet....or behind that tree in the backyard. Stay vigilant.


Freddy is fictional but too much tin foil on your head can make him appear real


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Just got my first dose. So far nothing sore, hopefully it stays that way.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

So, now it appears the Alberta woman who tragically died from a clot after getting the AstraZeneca shot, had gone to emergency a few days earlier and been turned away. When things took a turn for the worse, she went back to a _differen_t hospital and ER and was admitted, but tragically too late. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmo...strazeneca-vaccine-blood-clot-death-1.6015535

We obviously don't have the details yet. But it would not surprise me in the least if the first hospital she went to sent her home because they were swamped with Covid-19 patients and were understaffed. One of those I-can't-tend-to-an-emergency-because-I'm-too-busy-with-emergencies things. Given what has been learned about how to treat clotting problems following the A-Z shot, there's a very good chance the woman could have been saved. As the article notes, the daughter has now lost both parents within the space of 2 years. Tragedy upon tragedy.

Ultimately, it was the clot that killed her. But the unwillingness of many to do what they could to stop the spread was a willing and eager accomplice.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Seems like one shot of the vax ain't gonna do much against the new variants anyway and a second shot 4 months later is a joke.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Diablo said:


> 24hrs after Pfizer poke, and no ill effects other than it feels a little tender/bruised at the injection site.


I got that one 11 days ago; didn't feel the injection, no discomfort from it and no ill effects from the vaccine; they probably gave me saline.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Wardo said:


> I got that one 11 days ago; didn't feel the injection, no discomfort from it and no ill effects from the vaccine; they probably gave me saline.


nah, youre just real tough. probably don't need the second shot even


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

mhammer said:


> So, now it appears the Alberta woman who tragically died from a clot after getting the AstraZeneca shot, had gone to emergency a few days earlier and been turned away. When things took a turn for the worse, she went back to a _differen_t hospital and ER and was admitted, but tragically too late. https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmo...strazeneca-vaccine-blood-clot-death-1.6015535
> 
> We obviously don't have the details yet. But it would not surprise me in the least if the first hospital she went to sent her home because they were swamped with Covid-19 patients and were understaffed. One of those I-can't-tend-to-an-emergency-because-I'm-too-busy-with-emergencies things. Given what has been learned about how to treat clotting problems following the A-Z shot, there's a very good chance the woman could have been saved. As the article notes, the daughter has now lost both parents within the space of 2 years. Tragedy upon tragedy.
> 
> Ultimately, it was the clot that killed her. But the unwillingness of many to do what they could to stop the spread was a willing and eager accomplice.


As I posted on the prior page, we know them well, my wife babysat Jordan for years, stayed in touch with them and we attended Maury’s service 2 years ago, my wife spoke with Jordan today. I really don’t appreciate your speculations.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

keto said:


> As I posted on the prior page, we know them well, my wife babysat Jordan for years, stayed in touch with them and we attended Maury’s service 2 years ago, my wife spoke with Jordan today. I really don’t appreciate your speculations.


Jeez, I hope you didn't think I was blaming the _family_ for not stopping spread. Far from it, I see their horrible tragedy as one of those consequences of a larger populace that won't accept responsibility for the continuing spread that has overwhelmed hospitals, resulting in the displacing of people (and in this case, fatal neglect - or so I'm surmising) whose health or treatment deserves attention. Every day, we hear about people with serious health issues that are being bumped "down the stack" because the ICUs are full. Our neighbour had to wait something like 10 months for the piece of skull that was removed to address a brain bleed (which he was "fortunate" to have had in January before the pandemic gained steam) to be re-installed. And he's only one of many. There's people waiting for cancer treatment and more.

People harbour a vague assumption that they will eventually be "orphans", given the age difference between themselves and their parents. But no one deserves to be alone so young. Please convey my unreserved sympathies to Jordan. I hope she has a circle of good friends, extended family, and sweet memories, to help her heal.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

If one watches CNN at all, especially on a Sunday, you see a lot of pharmaceutical ads for stuff to treat all manner of health issues, from dementia to schizophrenia to psoriasis, HIV, IBS, diabetes, and lots of other things. As is required by law, such ads must contain warnings about possible side effects, and one can see them scrolling past.

I wonder. If one takes into account all the serious and potentially fatal recognized risks for any of these advertised drugs, how risky are they, compared to the known risks from AstraZeneca? We never see the actual numbers for them. I'm not suggesting anything is covered up, or that regulatory agencies are sloppy in what they green-light. Rather, I wonder if public perception of risk is biased, or rather under-informed, by the fact that we see lots of media reports of clot-case numbers, but nothing about, for instance, suicides from taking this or that medication (one of the risks that is frequently listed), or heart attacks, etc. Is the AZ vaccine more, less, or equally dangerous, compared to a host of other things we swallow or inject with regulatory approval?


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

This generation is so stupid.


https://www.scmp.com/magazines/style/luxury/article/3132608/why-pfizer-hot-person-vaccine-moderna-johnson-and-sinovac


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## Jim Wellington (Sep 3, 2017)

Diablo said:


> This generation is so stupid.


Looks like social hierarchy based on branding.

I over heard some girls shaming those who aren`t with the program . "Hair, nails, pedicure, Covid vaccination...must post on Facebook to make the other girls jealous." These girls were in their 60`s. I think it`s not so much generational, but social. Those who are wrapped up in their peers perceived image of them, participate in such. Women are so competitive sometimes. Everyone does it a little I suppose, like when I wear a Gibson t-shirt for example.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Jim Wellington said:


> Looks like social hierarchy based on branding.
> 
> I over heard some girls shaming those who aren`t with the program . "Hair, nails, pedicure, Covid vaccination...must post on Facebook to make the other girls jealous." These girls were in their 60`s. I think it`s not so much generational, but social. Those who are wrapped up in their peers perceived image of them, participate in such. Women are so competitive sometimes. Everyone does it a little I suppose, like when I wear a Gibson t-shirt for example.


Ya, but its strange social branding though...the whole thing of 1 vax being cooler than another is beyond stupid, but playing along with this nonsense, I would have thought Moderna would be the cool one ie the Tesla as a young startup company, first to market etc....and Pfizer would be the lame one, you know their dads Viagra brand.


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## Jim Wellington (Sep 3, 2017)

Diablo said:


> Pfizer would be the lame one


Ah, I see your point.

I have no idea about that cause...


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Diablo said:


> This generation is so stupid.
> 
> 
> https://www.scmp.com/magazines/style/luxury/article/3132608/why-pfizer-hot-person-vaccine-moderna-johnson-and-sinovac


Perpetual high school.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

More proof the average IQ keeps falling year over year.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

1SweetRide said:


> More proof the average IQ keeps falling year over year.


Ironically, if one looks at scores, it keeps going up ( Flynn effect - Wikipedia ). But then, that's more a matter of intelligence tests assessing factual knowledge and ability to quickly access it, than assessing common sense or wisdom.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

mhammer said:


> Ironically, if one looks at scores, it keeps going up ( Flynn effect - Wikipedia ). But then, that's more a matter of intelligence tests assessing factual knowledge and ability to quickly access it, than assessing common sense or wisdom.


There are studies you can google that shows it going down by 1 point / year in N/A.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

can't test 'em and give actual marks ( would stigmatize too many students ) ... shows how bad our school system is.
just show up at school most days and "participate" = you get an ontario high school diploma.

the real results show up when they write a world standardized test in math /etc .
then we really see how far down the list we actually stand.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

1SweetRide said:


> There are studies you can google that shows it going down by 1 point / year in N/A.


Intelligence tests are used for a great many purposes, quite apart from showing off how smart one is. They are used in forensic assessment, and also in identifying specific forms of brain damage, and many other uses. A big chunk of psychometric intelligence test performance rests on factual knowledge and vocabulary. A grad school friend worked on the "Canadianization" of one of the major intelligence tests, by providing substitutes for knowledge questions that might be more familiar for Americans than other citizens, leading to falsely lower scores for Canadians taking a test normed for Americans. I think "Who is Gordie Howe?" was one of the substitute items for a knowledge question about an established American sports figure. Similarly, "If you were travelling from Winnipeg to Halifax, which direction would you be flying in?" was a substitute for a question in which two American cities were used. All of these, and other potential substitutes, had to be normed, so as to determine how informative a correct or incorrect response would be. If nobody or if everybody gets a question wrong, then is it telling you anything about them? If none of the terms in the Verbal Similarities subscale are familiar to the person, such that they can't say or explain in which way X and Y (let's say eggplant and yams, as an example) are alike, does that mean they have a particular form of aphasia?

But this is the (typically Hammer) long way of saying that, given how much of one's "score" on an intelligence test comes from one's knowledge of words or general world knowledge. and how much of the populace has acquired such knowledge, IQ scores can change. Of course, if those words used for the vocabulary portion of the test have fallen into disuse since the last time the test was updated, you would expect scores to drop a bit. And conversely, if certain kinds of world knowledge are now more commonplace than they used to be, you would expect scores to go up.

The received wisdom among psychometricians is that if you only have very limited time to assess someone, and cannot administer the entire WAIS, you do the vocabulary portion and the block design portion. As public education and post-secondary education increases, what may have been rarer knowledge and skills, is now more common. But again, common *knowledge* is not the same as common *sense*.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Intelligence tests are used for a great many purposes, quite apart from showing off how smart one is. They are used in forensic assessment, and also in identifying specific forms of brain damage, and many other uses. A big chunk of psychometric intelligence test performance rests on factual knowledge and vocabulary. A grad school friend worked on the "Canadianization" of one of the major intelligence tests, by providing substitutes for knowledge questions that might be more familiar for Americans than other citizens, leading to falsely lower scores for Canadians taking a test normed for Americans. I think "Who is Gordie Howe?" was one of the substitute items for a knowledge question about an established American sports figure. Similarly, "If you were travelling from Winnipeg to Halifax, which direction would you be flying in?" was a substitute for a question in which two American cities were used. All of these, and other potential substitutes, had to be normed, so as to determine how informative a correct or incorrect response would be. If nobody or if everybody gets a question wrong, then is it telling you anything about them? If none of the terms in the Verbal Similarities subscale are familiar to the person, such that they can't say or explain in which way X and Y (let's say eggplant and yams, as an example) are alike, does that mean they have a particular form of aphasia?
> 
> But this is the (typically Hammer) long way of saying that, given how much of one's "score" on an intelligence test comes from one's knowledge of words or general world knowledge. and how much of the populace has acquired such knowledge, IQ scores can change. Of course, if those words used for the vocabulary portion of the test have fallen into disuse since the last time the test was updated, you would expect scores to drop a bit. And conversely, if certain kinds of world knowledge are now more commonplace than they used to be, you would expect scores to go up.
> 
> The received wisdom among psychometricians is that if you only have very limited time to assess someone, and cannot administer the entire WAIS, you do the vocabulary portion and the block design portion. As public education and post-secondary education increases, what may have been rarer knowledge and skills, is now more common. But again, common *knowledge* is not the same as common *sense*.


So to summarize, the people managing the tests need to be smarter than the tests


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I don't think they need to be smarter, but they do need to keep an eye on them and prevent any drift. We do that for every measurement tool, be it for measuring cognition, measuring temperature, measuring SPL, measuring time, or measuring weight and distance. ALL measurement tools need to be recalibrated now and then.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

'Very little excuse' to continue to use AstraZeneca in Canada: infectious diseases specialist


It’s time to halt AstraZeneca shots in Canada, except for people 40 or older in hotspots, says Andrew Morris, a doctor on Ontario’s COVID-19 science advisory…




nationalpost.com


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

mhammer said:


> I wonder if public perception of risk is biased, or rather under-informed, by the fact that we see lots of media reports of clot-case numbers, but nothing about, for instance, suicides from taking this or that medication (one of the risks that is frequently listed), or heart attacks, etc. Is the AZ vaccine more, less, or equally dangerous, compared to a host of other things we swallow or inject with regulatory approval?


I think that the mushroom theory accounts for the manufacture of public perception regarding anything - keep them in the dark and feed them lots of shit.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Wardo said:


> I think that the mushroom theory accounts for the manufacture of public perception regarding anything - keep them in the dark and feed them lots of shit.


Waaaaaaaayyyyyy off-topic, but you reminded me. There's a charming 1986 Welsh movie,called _Coming up Roses_, about a small town movie theatre that is closing for good, putting people out of work and killing a town legacy. The now-unemployed staff and their friends come up with a scheme to raise money and buy the theatre. They start growing mushrooms in bins under the theatre seats and selling them. After all, it's humid and dark in the theatre. The humour in the film comes from what they have to do to keep it a secret from the theatre owner and the authorities, as well as anyone who might spill the beans to them.

Okay, back to immunization, already in progress.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Ontario is pausing the Astra Zeneca vaccine first dose due to lack of supply and concern over blood clots. Just got an email from the pharmacy where I got my first jab. They are looking into alternatives for my second dose....


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

knight_yyz said:


> Ontario is pausing the Astra Zeneca vaccine first dose due to lack of supply and concern over blood clots. Just got an email from the pharmacy where I got my first jab. They are looking into alternatives for my second dose....


From what I hear we've got another 250,000 doses coming that will primarily be used for 2nd doses which apparently have a much, much lower chance of causing clotting (back up to 1 in a million in the UK). FWIW the good news for the AZ folks is that they'll get 2nd-dosed long before the rest of us.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

mhammer said:


> Waaaaaaaayyyyyy off-topic, but you reminded me. There's a charming 1986 Welsh movie,called _Coming up Roses_, about a small town movie theatre that is closing for good, putting people out of work and killing a town legacy. The now-unemployed staff and their friends come up with a scheme to raise money and buy the theatre. They start growing mushrooms in bins under the theatre seats and selling them. After all, it's humid and dark in the theatre. The humour in the film comes from what they have to do to keep it a secret from the theatre owner and the authorities, as well as anyone who might spill the beans to them.
> 
> Okay, back to immunization, already in progress.


Did the seats have holes in them? You know, to feed the mushrooms.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

allthumbs56 said:


> From what I hear we've got another 250,000 doses coming that will primarily be used for 2nd doses which apparently have a much, much lower chance of causing clotting (back up to 1 in a million in the UK). FWIW the good news for the AZ folks is that they'll get 2nd-dosed long before the rest of us.


Not necessarily a good thing. With AZ, you want at least 4 months between shots.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

1SweetRide said:


> Not necessarily a good thing. With AZ, you want at least 4 months between shots.


According to this article:









When might the wait time between shots of two-dose COVID-19 vaccines be reduced?


Jurisdictions across the country have been following a national vaccine panel's recommendation to prolong the time between the first and second doses of two-shot COVID-19 vaccines to up to four months. However, with Canada's vaccine supply set to increase, will provinces start to shorten the...




www.ctvnews.ca





_"For example, Pfizer recommends its second dose after 21 days; Moderna recommends a 28-day interval, and AstraZeneca has suggested administering its second shot between four and 12 weeks after the first."_​
Seriously, who knows. It seems that according to necessity we can go 4 months and we can mix n' match em' too. Why read the instructions on the label?


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Denmark has also stopped using Astra Zeneca they found 1 in 40k blood clot rate which is pretty high compared to all of europe at about 1 in 100k

"Effective May 11th , the Ministry of Health (MOH) has paused all further first dose administrations of AstraZeneca/ Covishield. The MOH made this decision out of an abundance of caution due to the rare blood clotting risk, decreasing COVID-19 case counts and the increasing supply of alternative vaccines. You remain on the waitlist and, based on the date you received your first dose, it is expected you will receive your second dose at Rexall within the recommended 16 week interval.

The MOH is reviewing available data that will guide a recommendation for the second dose.

The safety and effectiveness of receiving a second dose with AstraZeneca/ Covishield vs. an alternative vaccine is being reviewed. We will be in touch shortly when it will be your turn to book an appointment for your second dose with further details."


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

knight_yyz said:


> Denmark has also stopped using Astra Zeneca they found 1 in 40k blood clot rate which is pretty high compared to all of europe at about 1 in 100k
> 
> "Effective May 11th , the Ministry of Health (MOH) has paused all further first dose administrations of AstraZeneca/ Covishield. The MOH made this decision out of an abundance of caution due to the rare blood clotting risk, decreasing COVID-19 case counts and the increasing supply of alternative vaccines. You remain on the waitlist and, based on the date you received your first dose, it is expected you will receive your second dose at Rexall within the recommended 16 week interval.
> 
> ...


The UK says we'll know in two-three weeks if we can mix mRNA with vector vaccines. Having had the first dose, I'm not worried about the second. The studies aren't mentioning that smokers and those on birth control pills are at higher risk for clotting.

On another note, the neighbours across from my parents have Covid. The father just got transported to the local hospital and is now in a coma and on a respirator. There are a whole bunch living with them. All the sons and daughters with their boyfriends and girlfriends. It seemed inevitable. Also, there were lots of people coming and going on the weekend visiting and bringing food and supplies. Nice gesture but they were going into the home mask free. If you can't convince people to isolate and wear masks in a known Covid household, how will you ever convince them to wear them in public spaces?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I shouldn't be so uncharacteristically cynical, but I suspect there is a bit of "Heyyyy, how come WE'RE not suspending AZ?" going around.
There is litigation-anxiety spreading across countries. It's the sort of thing that resulted in swings being removed from most parks, playgrounds, and schoolyards, and immense automobile recalls because two people had a problem.
Unless much of the UK starts dropping and writhing on the ground like Samuel Jackson just sent a code out, like in "Kingsmen", I suspect we'll see a resumption in use of AZ. The UK has had "some" cases, all of them tragic and regrettable, but clots happen within the first 4-28 days of injection, and were well past that for the brunt of Great Britain. So I think those cases have peaked, and the rareness of clots there is a reliable indicator.

The data on clots initially showed statistically greater incidence in females, but evened out across the sexes over time. Turned out that immunization programs in the UK were initially targetting professions and contexts that were predominantly female (e.g., hospital staff), so the cases showing up were more female than male. As the coverage of immunization spread out, and more males were included, clots were not found to be more common in women than men.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

mhammer said:


> I shouldn't be so uncharacteristically cynical, but I suspect there is a bit of "Heyyyy, how come WE'RE not suspending AZ?" going around.
> There is litigation-anxiety spreading across countries. It's the sort of thing that resulted in swings being removed from most parks, playgrounds, and schoolyards, and immense automobile recalls because two people had a problem.
> Unless much of the UK starts dropping and writhing on the ground like Samuel Jackson just sent a code out, like in "Kingsmen", I suspect we'll see a resumption in use of AZ. The UK has had "some" cases, all of them tragic and regrettable, but clots happen within the first 4-28 days of injection, and were well past that for the brunt of Great Britain. So I think those cases have peaked, and the rareness of clots there is a reliable indicator.
> 
> The data on clots initially showed statistically greater incidence in females, but evened out across the sexes over time. Turned out that immunization programs in the UK were initially targetting professions and contexts that were predominantly female (e.g., hospital staff), so the cases showing up were more female than male. As the coverage of immunization spread out, and more males were included, clots were not found to be more common in women than men.


Glad it doesn't discriminate.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> I shouldn't be so uncharacteristically cynical, but I suspect there is a bit of "*Heyyyy, how come WE'RE not suspending AZ?*" going around.
> There is litigation-anxiety spreading across countries. It's the sort of thing that resulted in swings being removed from most parks, playgrounds, and schoolyards, and immense automobile recalls because two people had a problem.
> Unless much of the UK starts dropping and writhing on the ground like Samuel Jackson just sent a code out, like in "Kingsmen", I suspect we'll see a resumption in use of AZ. The UK has had "some" cases, all of them tragic and regrettable, but clots happen within the first 4-28 days of injection, and were well past that for the brunt of Great Britain. So I think those cases have peaked, and the rareness of clots there is a reliable indicator.
> 
> The data on clots initially showed statistically greater incidence in females, but evened out across the sexes over time. Turned out that immunization programs in the UK were initially targetting professions and contexts that were predominantly female (e.g., hospital staff), so the cases showing up were more female than male. As the coverage of immunization spread out, and more males were included, clots were not found to be more common in women than men.


Are we not?

My understanding is that, in Ontario and Alberta at least, they have suspended it for first shots. What we have left and coming in will be used for second shots for which the clotting odds are still at 1 in a million.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Top Scientists Question the Need for Covid-19 Booster Shots


COVID-19 vaccine developers are making ever bolder assertions that the world will need yearly booster shots, or new ...




www.ntd.com


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> Are we not?
> 
> My understanding is that, in Ontario and Alberta at least, they have suspended it for first shots. What we have left and coming in will be used for second shots for which the clotting odds are still at 1 in a million.


The clotting odds was 1 in a 100,000 which has even gotten worse to 1 in 59.000. There are 8 cases of blood clotting in Ontario.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

laristotle said:


> Top Scientists Question the Need for Covid-19 Booster Shots
> 
> 
> COVID-19 vaccine developers are making ever bolder assertions that the world will need yearly booster shots, or new ...
> ...


Are these the "Topermost" Scientists?


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Chito said:


> The clotting odds was 1 in a 100,000 which has even gotten worse to 1 in 59.000. There are 8 cases of blood clotting in Ontario.


That's for first doses. 2nd doses is 1 in a million.

"What doesn't kill ya' makes ya' stronger" 😎


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

allthumbs56 said:


> Are these the "Topermost" Scientists?


Couldn't tell ya, but a few names and important sounding medical departments are mentioned in the article.

_Dr. Monica Gandhi, an infectious disease doctor at the University of California, San Francisco, said ultimately, decisions on whether boosters will be needed “will best be made by public health experts, rather than CEOs of a company who may benefit financially.” _


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

laristotle said:


> Couldn't tell ya, but a few names and important sounding medical departments are mentioned in the article.
> 
> _Dr. Monica Gandhi, an infectious disease doctor at the University of California, San Francisco, said ultimately, decisions on whether boosters will be needed “will best be made by public health experts, rather than CEOs of a company who may benefit financially.” _


Remind me ....... who researched and developed the vaccines? Pretty sure it was the _drug_ _company_ and not the _health care worker_. 

Matter of fact our "Topermost" healthcare workers (Tam, the WHO, and NACI come immediately to mind) have been a bit of a disappointment.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Keep in mind, Chris, that drug companies have access to their _own_ data. They do not necessarily stay on top of what is happening across multiple jurisdictions or what is happening with other manufacturers' products. Go to the WHO and PHAC sites, and you'll realize that NO pharmaceutical company anywhere is collating the kind of data that public health bodies do. That's their *job*; to know what's going on everywhere. That's what epidemiologists do - track patterns across populations and countries, and often over time.

Every orchestra needs a conductor or arranger, because leaving it all up to individual musicians may be fine for a duo or trio, but not for an entire orchestra. SOMEBODY has to be on top of monitoring what these and those sections of the orchestra are doing, and coordinating it all to achieve some end result. No pharmaceutical company anywhere takes on that task.

Now, are public health experts public policy experts? Not always. Their recommendations should most certainly be heeded by decision-makers. But public health folks are trained in understanding what's going on, who is affected most and least, how it got to be that way, where the weak points are, and what to expect down the road. They are not trained in what to do to get there, apart from very specific individual mechanisms, or how to coordinate the economic and political with the medical. That's someone else's job.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Frustrations mount over AstraZenca messaging


Frustrations mount over AstraZenca messaging




www.healthing.ca


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

laristotle said:


> Frustrations mount over AstraZenca messaging
> 
> 
> Frustrations mount over AstraZenca messaging
> ...


NACI goofed when they said "preferred". It suggested something was wrong with AZ. I think the point was really "If you have concerns about risk of clots, just take the other vaccine and get a load off your mind."


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

mhammer said:


> NACI goofed when they said "preferred". It suggested something was wrong with AZ. I think the point was really "If you have concerns about risk of clots, just take the other vaccine and get a load off your mind."



Mmmmm, beg to differ, it was a very short time ago (the science changes blah blah blah we get it) that the message was no difference get a shot. Like, well past lots of reporting on the subject. And there IS something wrong with AZ, or why would it be handled any differently in any case? That's without reading the article, I'll go do that now.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

keto said:


> Mmmmm, beg to differ, it was a very short time ago (the science changes blah blah blah we get it) that the message was no difference get a shot. Like, well past lots of reporting on the subject. And there IS something wrong with AZ, or why would it be handled any differently in any case? That's without reading the article, I'll go do that now.


The message Ive heard the most, through the media from the policy makers is something like "...the best vax you can get is whichever one you can get first".


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