# Are we still on the low watt combo kick?



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Been a few years now on the explosion of the low watt combo and heads. Are we all ready to get back into the head crushing 50/100 watt yet?


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## TWRC (Apr 22, 2011)

I was a late adopter with my Vox AC4TV. I still use it at rehearsals because it's loud enough to keep up with my drummer, but I mostly use it at home. I've never played a show with it because my tone is generally dialed into my AC30. Looking to get an AC15 in the near future. However, the only high wattage head that I would consider getting would be a JCM800.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

My #1 amp over the last little bit has become my Traynor YGM2. The JTM45 is just too big/loud for most applications for me, but the YGM2 is a great size (doesn't take up too much stage room) and is plenty loud for the rooms we play. Now, it's not necessarily a "low-watt" combo at between 22-25 watts, but it's not a beast either.

My partner runs a AC15 as her main amp, and again, it has plenty of volume for small-mid sized bar gigs and the form-factor is great!

We also have an AC4TV and I've practiced with that as well and yes, it's loud enough to hear over a drummer (no-headroom though). 

I don't see the need for a half-stack unless the genre specifically requires one, and even then, I don't know if they do anymore (though that's just an opinion).


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm still rocking the low power combos, but I'm a home player.

I have a 5 watt Marshall class 5, a 6 watt Princeton clone and my 15 watt Vox AC15C1 which isn't super low wattage, but lower...

The Marshall has a VVR installed on it and I run the attenuation pretty high.


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## TWRC (Apr 22, 2011)

That would be my only beef with the AC4TV, there's not enough headroom when running a lot of pedals, but then again it's only 4 watts. HAHA

I figure with an AC15, I'd have my Vox tones covered.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I still have the Mack Gem lunchbox 4 watter, I think that is as low as it gets around here. The main amp is the Fender Super Reverb although it does not see much above 4 on the volume dial, the sucker is loud. But I prefer that sound above anything right now.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

TWRC said:


> That would be my only beef with the AC4TV, there's not enough headroom when running a lot of pedals, but then again it's only 4 watts. HAHA
> 
> I figure with an AC15, I'd have my Vox tones covered.


I love the AC15. I wish I had the scratch for a handwired version. though the new handwired AC4HW are crazy nice too.


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## TWRC (Apr 22, 2011)

I'm surprised that I don't own one actually. My 70's AC30 has seen a lot of action and I'd much rather bring something a bit smaller to shows. Although, sometimes that feeling when you stand in front of a dime'd AC30 is just unbeatable.



blam said:


> I love the AC15. I wish I had the scratch for a handwired version. though the new handwired AC4HW are crazy nice too.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

I think the AC30 has some great tones. much moreso than the AC15

unfortunately, for a home setting the AC30 would just be silly for me.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

I wish amp manufactures would smarten up and realize that a small wattage amp doesn't necessarily need to have a small speaker and cab! Make one with a nice 12" speaker and a roomy cab. No reason to sound boxy with an 8 or 10" speaker stuffed into the smallest cab possible.

TG


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

I think we are still dispositioned these days toward the smaller amps. It is really hard to find the rare occasion for something bigger that we can open up the volume on. You need to be some huge band playing shows in arenas where the amps aren't messing with the FOH. In homes, bars, churches, practice spaces, and even smaller outdoor venue gigs, it's too easy to get your head bitten off by a sound-guy, band-member, or audience-member. I guess the exception is the guitar player that likes super sterile sounding cleans (blech!) and only uses pedals for distortion... there is some freedom in that, but I feel they miss out on the true design of a good tube amp.

I use a 30 watt amp with VVR most often tuned to around 35% voltage, knowing that I'm going to lose a lot of fun going any lower, and guaranteed complaints going any higher no matter where I am.
Tried my 100ish watt Traynor YGL-3 with the band yesterday, trying to find some appropriate volume around 2.5 on the master Volume and the drummer was whining and crying about how his ears hurt. It was surprising considering how loud he gets on the high-hat and cymbals as we do faster songs, but he just couldn't handle it and I couldn't get a reasonable tone or volume I liked without some real time spent on a very finicky volume knob (I better see if and audio-taper pot might help things). But ya, I was hoping to bring that Traynor as a backup for both myself as well as our bass player on our upcoming tour. Decided it's too much trouble and in the unlikely event we have amp issues, we'll just have to rely on the other bands on tour.

To show the actual volumes I get to use live in bars... I've used my 5E3 clone as the "clean/wet" side of my 2-amp-rig. And then I still put a barrier in front of the speaker cab to protect the audience from the 12ish watts hitting them straight on.


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## NB_Terry (Feb 2, 2006)

I haven't had an amp more powerful than 22 watts (Fender BF Deluxe) in over 10 years. 

My 3 amps right now are all 15 watts each.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

traynor_garnet said:


> I wish amp manufactures would smarten up and realize that a small wattage amp doesn't necessarily need to have a small speaker and cab! Make one with a nice 12" speaker and a roomy cab. No reason to sound boxy with an 8 or 10" speaker stuffed into the smallest cab possible.
> 
> TG


The last combo I built was for my champ clone and it was a rather large and deep 1x12 with tilt-back legs. I agree that there a lot of great reasons to go lower wattage, but not much point to going smaller than 1x12.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

^^^Or at least offer it in a head unit.

I think that Dr Z got it right with the Maz 8, combo or head.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

bcmatt said:


> Tried my 100ish watt Traynor YGL-3 with the band yesterday, trying to find some appropriate volume around 2.5 on the master Volume and the drummer was whining and crying about how his ears hurt. I couldn't get a reasonable tone or volume I liked without some real time spent on a very finicky volume knob (I better see if and audio-taper pot might help things).


You really should check into the pot because Traynor used linear pots in a lot of amps. They are like On/Off switches and offer almost no real adjustment. On my bassmate, 1 is basically as loud at 10; the more you crank the knob the more distortion you get, but the perceived volume is pretty much the same. Useless really. I'm not sure why they used these instead of audio taper pots (which some models, like the YBA-1, used).

Just thought I would mention it before you put a great amp in the closet.

TG


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## Fuzzy Picklez (Apr 20, 2011)

Man, Canadians _are _boring. 

I've tried the whole smaller amp thing. I had an Orange Tiny Terror, and I didn't really like it. I have a blues junior, which I love, but I really favour louder, larger amps for playing with bands.

Loud is fun. I run a 70s Ampeg VT-22 combo, with a VHT 2x12 extention cab with vintage 30s.
I'm looking to add an AC30 to my rig, and run it in with a traynor 2x15, and then run it in stereo with the ampeg for maximum death.

Big powerful amps are where it's at. My whole band runs absurdly loud, and large set ups. It's more fun that way.


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## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

Scott:

To answer your question in a word...yes. I have 10 amps and only 2 are over 22 watts and they are a Prosonic and an AC302HL and these are not the two that go to any gigs. I can't imagine owning either a 50W or 100W amp at this point. I don't know where I would use them.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

Marv, your AC30 is an absolute magnificent piece of art. I'm sure it sounds half decent too. it's a shame it doesn't get to come out and play with the others.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

traynor_garnet said:


> You really should check into the pot because Traynor used linear pots in a lot of amps. They are like On/Off switches and offer almost no real adjustment. On my bassmate, 1 is basically as loud at 10; the more you crank the knob the more distortion you get, but the perceived volume is pretty much the same. Useless really. I'm not sure why they used these instead of audio taper pots (which some models, like the YBA-1, used).
> 
> Just thought I would mention it before you put a great amp in the closet.
> 
> TG


I think you are right. I think I remember it was a 100K L pot for master volume. Last time I had it open or was looking at a schematic, I noted this, and wondered what the reason would be. It is a great amp (I actually have 2 of them and they are the only amps I keep that I did not build myself... no worry of them being under-appreciated)
The linear master may have been fine when keeping the preamp volume somewhere in the middle, but anything but pretty much cranked remains too clean in this circuit, so this puts a whole lot of signal at the master volume pot in an amp that was designed to be a big clean Twin-Reverb style circuit. I'll get around to it soon... actually, I may even have time today on the off chance that I have a 100K Audio in the toolbox.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

50W+ heads and 412 cabs are my bread and butter. Im not chasing tones from anything before 2007 more often then not, so I dont want some low wattage head. I used a Tweaker 15, it sounds good, but I prefer the 50W JCM800 I use right now.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I live in an apartment.


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## bcmatt (Aug 25, 2007)

traynor_garnet said:


> You really should check into the pot because Traynor used linear pots in a lot of amps. They are like On/Off switches and offer almost no real adjustment. On my bassmate, 1 is basically as loud at 10; the more you crank the knob the more distortion you get, but the perceived volume is pretty much the same. Useless really. I'm not sure why they used these instead of audio taper pots (which some models, like the YBA-1, used).
> 
> Just thought I would mention it before you put a great amp in the closet.
> 
> TG


Ok, it turns out the last pot I found was an audio taper 100k. Swapped it in and the MV is much smoother now. Of course, I also realized that I have a couple dual-ganged 250k pots, so now I am contemplating a PPIMV as well. I wonder if one of those would work well on this amp... I can't leave well enough alone!


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

traynor_garnet said:


> I wish amp manufactures would smarten up and realize that a small wattage amp doesn't necessarily need to have a small speaker and cab! Make one with a nice 12" speaker and a roomy cab. No reason to sound boxy with an 8 or 10" speaker stuffed into the smallest cab possible.
> 
> TG


Just traded a Cornford Harlequin that fits that bill. 6W EL84 combo w/ a 12" speaker in a cab that was nearly the same size as my '66 Vibrolux.

I'm in a condo now, so low wattage is a requirement, been through many wee amps trying to find tube crunch that doesn't upset the neighbours. Was very excited to get an AC4 but ended up taking it back: agree w/ previous comments about it being too boxy. Tried the Mini Z but the lack of any kind of tone control was an issue, especially since the attenuator really compresses & darkens the tone. Curious to try the 8Watter though, anyone here have any experience w/ it?

Right now I'm running a 1W BumBox head into a 212 cab & am forced to use the master volume. For playing out, a Princeton or 18W Marshall has always been loud enough.


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## corailz (May 1, 2008)

I love my TopHat ClubRoyale that i use both at home or for live.It's about 20watts that seems reasonnable in most situations for me.The fact that the amp is a 2x12" combo is great to me cause it sounds like having more headroom than my 1x12" combos and it sounds huge at low volume!The overall is near perfection for my needs!


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## jmb2 (May 18, 2009)

For the past several years I'd been quite keen on the _*Z-28*_ and _*Carmen Ghia *_from *Dr Z - *staying in the 18 to 22 watt zone. As of late, I am favoring a _*Galaxie*_ and _*Remedy* _thru 112 and/or 210 cabs . 40 watts seem to be my happy spot. 

cheers always,

Joel


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

I have a 5 watt champ clone (amp head - perfect for recording) and a 30 watt AC30 clone (amp head - perfect for gigging). 

Both of which are too LOUD for our apartment.


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## RobQ (May 29, 2008)

I play 90% of my gigs, even in little rooms, with an 85w Bogner Shiva. The minute I find a smaller amp that sounds as awesome, I will buy it, purely for the sake of my back. But I haven't yet.

I do think that most 15w amps lack the clean headroom for anything but blues, unless you are playing very quiet or mic your amp most of the time. A gigging rig needs to be 30w min if you need to push clean volume or get the most out of decent pedals or fx units.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

hardasmum said:


> I have a 5 watt champ clone (amp head - perfect for recording) and a 30 watt AC30 clone (amp head - perfect for gigging).
> 
> Both of which are too LOUD for our apartment.


The AC4Tv set to the middle wattage is too loud for most apartments. I think it was 1 or 2 watts in that setting.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

My Maz 18 is plenty loud!

When I did gig, I used a Fender Twin.
Practiced with it in the low setting, which is 25 watts.

I think that I played one set of the first gig with the amp, on the high setting.
The bass player mentioned that it was loud, and that we'd jam with it all the time in the low setting,
why not try it that way, just crank it up a bit more. Much better results.
Then, I'm lugging around an 80+ pound amp, for 25 watts.


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## Stevo (Apr 3, 2008)

I usually use 100 watters for most of the gigs I do. I certainly don't need the volume but I do need the headroom. Often, I want clean, clean at band volumes. Even with 30 watters, they break up when the drummer is hitting at a decent volume. 

I have lower watt amps as well that I use for more '1 tone' gigs but for funk stuff or cover band gigs, I always use high watt amps.


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## notjoeaverage (Oct 6, 2008)

I've got the Lil' Night Train 2W Head and right now am running it through a Randall 2x12CRX at 8 ohms which makes the amps output 1.5 W. I put in a 76 Celestion G12M 25W and a 78 G12H 30W, when I use the Boss GT5 Effects Processor sometimes the volume level changes when I switch settings and the difference is enough that I have to adjust the amp. I normally keep the amps gain and volume no higher than 9 o'clock, but with good speakers it is still loud enough with the cab 2 ft off the floor and me sitting in a chair 6 ft away.

The few times I go to 12 o'clock on both it's almost loud enough to take my head off unless I'm standing and go as far as the cord will stretch.

I'd like to get an AC15 someday and maybe build a 18W Marshall clone just because, but I can't see any reason to use a tube amp over 5 W at home as your everyday amp or gig with more than 15 W unless you're not using a PA.

You've all seen the picks of the wall of Marshall Full Stacks and they are just empty shells for show. I'm getting to the point where I rarely go to a bar to see live bands anymore, unless it's a buddies, because they are just too damn loud and the sound is crap.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

As I play mostly at home, for fun, and I sometimes like to play in different rooms, and I don't have a good place I can leave an amp set up, a small combo is the way to go.


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## RobQ (May 29, 2008)

nkjanssen said:


> With a few exceptions (jazz players, some country guys and a few others), most players I know would ideally like to have at least a bit of power tube distortion happening when they play. To get that with a 50w - 100w amp, you're going to be ripping peoples heads off. Even an AC-30 is painfully loud when the power tubes are cooking. With modern PA systems it's just not necessary or practical, unless of course your audience enjoys a wall of painful noise (which may be the case at some metal shows - I don't know) or you're going for a clean sound. For me, 11 - 15 watts is the sweet spot for most gigs I play. Though I'll occasionally go down to 5 watts for smaller shows.


Again, up until quite recently I used to believe this.

IMHO power tube distortion is overhyped and overrated. To my ears, most little amps get all ratty sounding when pushed too hard. A little compression from pushing it a bit, sure; that can help make an amp really sing, and smooth out a little harshness. But out and out grit? Nah. 

A bigger amp that is not being pushed too hard has more refined lows, clearer highs, and more dynamic feel. Driving the output section masks a lot of the character of the guitar's original sound, and can make the lows get flabby and the mids get out of control. Headroom is not just about cleans. It's also about being able to maintain the same timbre and punchiness at a range of volumes, without certain frequencies (usually lows) dropping out or getting mushy.

Plus, unless you use a REALLY small amp with a mic on it 100% of the time, if you are relying on power tubes to get your grit, you effectively give up all control over volume; you can no longer match your amp's volume to the room, the stage, or the band.

Again IMHO the supposed virtue of power tube distortion is one of the great myths of guitar gear. And it's an excuse that lots of guys use to play too loud.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Good discussion actually, some good points being brought forward on both sides.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

15 watts of digital, not very exotic, but when most of your playing is through headphones it is great. Has passable sounds and tones and a ton of effects. Also a memory card, a looper, and you can download backing tracks, songs and presets too.


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## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

I have to hear the consistent nuances out of my stuff or I can't play, period.
I get distracted by the lack of response ,unfamiliarity ,etc.
If it's not happening,I become preoccupied with the gear instead of enjoying the music.
Having admitted that I am somewhat anal about the translation between what my brain wants to hear and what actually comes out of the wires ,glass and paper, my solution has been to run an amplifier with sufficient clarity and tonal character for my taste that will be consistent in any situatiuon.
To accommodate the space I'm in, I vary the size of the speaker(s)only.
As small as a single 8" to as much as I need to be able to feel what I'm doing in an open air venue.
I like what a couple of 4 x 10' cabs can do outdoors.
Cheers, d


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## LowWatt (Jun 27, 2007)

Stevo said:


> I usually use 100 watters for most of the gigs I do. I certainly don't need the volume but I do need the headroom. Often, I want clean, clean at band volumes. Even with 30 watters, they break up when the drummer is hitting at a decent volume.
> 
> I have lower watt amps as well that I use for more '1 tone' gigs but for funk stuff or cover band gigs, I always use high watt amps.


This is exactly why my singer is after a Twin Reverb. He doesn't need more volume than his Super Reverb provides, but he needs significant consistent and bold headroom.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

And when did we ever need an excuse to play loud?


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

nkjanssen said:


> It's not a myth; it's a preference.
> 
> It might not be everybody's preference, but it is the preference of many. If it's a myth, thousands of pro players have been "wrong" about their tone choices for decades.


Agreed. I *prefer* the way my JTM45 sounds cranked up, but I'm currently using my YGM2 and pedals for dirt because it's just easier and less of a hassle.


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## RobQ (May 29, 2008)

nkjanssen said:


> It's not a myth; it's a preference.
> 
> It might not be everybody's preference, but it is the preference of many. If it's a myth, thousands of pro players have been "wrong" about their tone choices for decades.


Really? The whole boutique micro amp thing is pretty recent as far as I can tell. Champs in the studio, yes. But onstage?

Most serious local pro players I know use a deluxe reverb reissue or bigger on all but the very smallest gigs. Is it different where you live?

Anyway I was addressing the assertion in an earlier post that most players value power tube distortion as a key element of their live sound.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> 15 watts of digital, not very exotic, but when most of your playing is through headphones it is great. Has passable sounds and tones and a ton of effects. Also a memory card, a looper, and you can download backing tracks, songs and presets too.


I have the Jr, so no memory card or downloads as such, but I can hook it up to MIDI if I had the means to do so.

For playing at home and stuff it's quite cool.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

RobQ said:


> Really? The whole boutique micro amp thing is pretty recent as far as I can tell. Champs in the studio, yes. But onstage?
> 
> Most serious local pro players I know use a deluxe reverb reissue or bigger on all but the very smallest gigs. Is it different where you live?
> 
> Anyway I was addressing the assertion in an earlier post that most players value power tube distortion as a key element of their live sound.


I think a micro tube amp would be enough for a small coffee house type setting.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

bcmatt said:


> Ok, it turns out the last pot I found was an audio taper 100k. Swapped it in and the MV is much smoother now. Of course, I also realized that I have a couple dual-ganged 250k pots, so now I am contemplating a PPIMV as well. I wonder if one of those would work well on this amp... I can't leave well enough alone!


It's unbelievable what a difference it makes, isn't it! I still don't know why Traynor used these in some amps (the reverb on my YGM-1 used a linear pot and it was useless).

TG


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

I'm a small combo guy myself, specifically a '77 SF Princeton Reverb with a 12" ext. cab. We have done 200 seat bars, an arena gig and outdoor gigs and it has never been over 5 on the volume knob. Any more and it deafens everyone on stage, myself included. Mind you, our drummer uses a digital kit so drum volume has never been an issue on stage, but even in my last band the drummer(s) used acoustic kits and the PR was always able to be heard. I can't beleive I used to play a BF Super Reverb dimed all the time (when I was young and stupid, LOL).


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Just out of curiosity what would define a "low watt" amp anyway. We are hearing of 4 watt, 5 watt, then 20 watt and so on. What would be the cut-off? I am not sure 50 watt is the right answer.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

My main amp is 38 watts. I wouldn't call it "low watt" by any stretch. It's one loud son of a gun.

Any amp that you would consider using an attenuator would not be low watt.

I guess maybe 15 watts or less?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I guess maybe 15 watts or less?


I agree...15 watts or less seems about right, IMHO

Cheers

Dave


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

I own only one amp these days and it is my Allen Old Flame which is a 40 watt amp with 2 x 10" speakers. I think it sounds great at both low and high volume. I don't like the sound of very small amps. I mean playing guitar through a 5" speaker? Seriously? I need clean headroom for my type of music. At home I usually practice with headphones using my regular pedalboard through a Carl Martin Rock Bug preamp/speaker simulator.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

The G DEC speaker is small, I am thinking of making a new cab with a 10 or 12" speaker in it.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> The G DEC speaker is small, I am thinking of making a new cab with a 10 or 12" speaker in it.


I'm certain that you will really enjoy the huge improvement the cab will make.

Cheers

Dave


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## The Lullaby (Dec 8, 2010)

15 watts is likely 75% the volume as 50 watts,tube wise,so the increases are small from 15/18 to 30 ot to 50 watts,a few dbs here or there.

Wouldn't the increase from 15 to 50 watts like 5 dbs,maybe 7? 

Use an MXR Microamp and you're there.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

In the last 5 years..i think i've gotten at good 10 combo's in the low watt series, from 10 to 22 watts, AND..they always end-up the way of the Dodo... Guess i'm just a Stack Player. Right now i actually gotten louder with a Mashall Rack system 100w in a 4x12, what can i say..even home..i play at crazy ass volume.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

With all the major advances in digital modelling like Axe FX, pod HD, yamaha thr series, Kemper, etc. I think that the new trend is digital modelling. Low watt is still my preference, but there is nothing that matches the feel of a loud amp turned up. I'm seriously thinking about getting either a rack setup or a channel switching 50 watter just for kicks.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

al3d said:


> In the last 5 years..i think i've gotten at good 10 combo's in the low watt series, from 10 to 22 watts, AND..they always end-up the way of the Dodo... Guess i'm just a Stack Player. Right now i actually gotten louder with a Mashall Rack system 100w in a 4x12, what can i say..even home..i play at crazy ass volume.


Bonjour Alain...Can you still hear me?...or should I write this louder?

Cheers

Dave


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

nkjanssen said:


> When you're talking about gigging amps, I'd put a Deluxe Reverb (around 22 watts I think) at the upper end of "small amps". Anything above that - an AC30, Twin Reverb, JCM800, etc. - I'd consider big.
> 
> Obviously it's subjective, though.


I agree. 22 watts seems like a reasonable "upper end" for low watt amps.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Preferring to play at excessive volumes and NEEDING to do so to get great tone are completely different things.

I have no problem with the former, but if you fall into that category, please call someone else for FOH sound.


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## FrankyNoTone (Feb 27, 2012)

I don't know if its been mentioned before, but I believe a 10 times power increase only gives you twice the loudness, and speaker efficiency is as important as the power rating. So its tough to compare amps/cabs merely by wattage.

In any event, its the year 2012 and the world hasn't ended and its time to give up the stone knives and bearskins tube tech.


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## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

*FrankyNoTone* 

"In any event, its the year 2012 and the world hasn't ended and its time to give up the stone knives and bearskins tube tech."


and the internal combustion engine.
oh yeah, and the invention of the wheel.
Could be huge!


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## RobQ (May 29, 2008)

nkjanssen said:


> Just saw Alejandro Escovedo tonight. Total rock show. Outdoor 2,000-seat venue. Used Blues Jr.'s. Pushed 'em hard and it sounded terrific. Of course, they had a nice sound system and a good sound man and they took advantage of it. The band before them used Deluxe reverbs and also pushed them. Not a 100 watt stack in sight. Guess none of those guys have figured out yet that power tube overdrive is a myth.


Sure, and the dude from the Bottle Rockets uses a blues jr too.

I'm not saying that nobody on earth prefers little amps pushed hard.

But for every little rig like that, that you'll see at a major gig, you will see a hundred big amps,and there's a specific reason for that.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

greco said:


> Bonjour Alain...Can you still hear me?...or should I write this louder?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


*WHAT?""...............SPEAK UP!......*:sSig_cool2:


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

I do have a constant ringing in my left ear from the old school volumes back in the day. I was a bass player but have never forgotten the joy of wandering over to the guitar side of the stage and standing in front of a cranked 100 watt Marshall stack, wind blowing through my nipple length hair, ear drums compressed tightly against my brain from the throbbing speakers and my pancreas vibrating against my liver after violently exchanging places within my anatomy...


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

I was watching a BB King concert on video once and he had Ritchie Sambora come on stage for some loose jams. BB was about 4 feet from his L5 and although Ritchie was right beside him, his 1/2 stack was about 20 feet away which kind of tells a story. Sometimes you need the big amp to get the desired style of sound and sometimes not so much.

Edit: I REALLY wanted to be at that festival this weekend but circumstances prevented it. Maybe next year. They were serving different wines for different performances to add to the pleasure I missed.


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## mechanic (Apr 1, 2010)

When you ask "we" in the O.P. are you referring to the amp makers or the guitar players?
I've found it interesting over the years that there's 2 camps in this area.
A lot of people are into the low watt tube heads as you can dime them and not blow your window's out at home.
That's cool and actually it's what I need/use.
For example, my Epi valve jr. has no problem keeping up with a drummer. (as long as he lays off a little and assuming you don't need any "clean" headroom)
Quite a few amp makers caught on and jumped in with low watt offerings.
But then there are a few makers who seem to be going the other direction, like Bugera for example.
Does anyone really NEED a 150 watt tube amp in this day and age of mic'ing everything thru the pa?
Just my thought's on the subject.
Eric


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## RobQ (May 29, 2008)

nkjanssen said:


> Just finished up a three day festival and there wasn't a 50/100 watt amp all weekend. Lots of tweed deluxes, deluxe reverbs, blues jrs, etc. There were a couple of AC30s. Still, not so much as a half-stack all weekend. Blue Rodeo, Hawksley Workman, Alejandro, Whitehorse, etc., etc. - all obviously clueless about tone. Someone needs to fill them all in about the myth.


The only one of those amps that's really 'low wattage' is the Blues Junior, which are not exactly revered for smooth power tube distortion. I gigged one for about 10 years, one of the early green board ones, and while I dug the Marshally mids and the portability, its great flaw was the way it behaved when it ran out of clean headroom; the lows got all mushy and ratty. On that amp in particular, power tube distortion = flabby, sloppy lows. I bet the guys you saw plugged into one were either running it at quite low volume, or we're looking for that ratty Neil Young vibe.

You have to crank the snot out of the bigger, modern fender tweeds on the clean channel to get them to break up in the output stage, by which point they get all boxy sounding. Most guys use them as a clean platform for pedals. Or they use the dirty channel and back off on the Master plume, which means they are getting their grit in the preamp stage and running the power tubes fairly 'cool'.

Anyway I had assumed that by 'low wattage' we were talking about the little sub-15 watt units that some boutique makers like Carr and Dr Z, and mass market makers like Traynor, Vox, and Epi, have been pushing in recent years and that seem to be all the rage. Judging by their ads, Carr is specifically targeting the 'stock broker jamming in the basement' cork-sniffing set. Most working guitarists I know do not use these little amps on their gigs.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

To add my $.02 worth, I think we are still on the Low watt combo kick because 1) they are easy to transport and set up on small stages where most of us play, at least some of the time, and 2) there are few venues, except the smallest where a full PA isn't available or the band PA is capable of supporting the sound requirements, where a suitable PA system isn't available. I have an OR 80 combo in my basement, two twelve, 80 watts, weighs about 85 pounds, and a Valve Train Trenton combo, one tweleve, six/sixteen watts, weight 30 pounds: guess which one goes out the door first?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I wonder also,

a) what's the average age of posters on this forum
b) what's the "general" type of music played by gigging forum members
c) what would the 15-30 demographic show?


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## RobQ (May 29, 2008)

nkjanssen said:


> I thought it was pretty clear we were talking about 12 - 22 watt amps as gigging amps (which is actually what the Blues Jr. is anyway - 15 watts). Regardless...
> 
> I was more specifically responding to the statement "...the supposed virtue of power tube distortion is one of the great myths of guitar gear", which essentially means that any player who likes to push his amp hard (whether small or large) doesn't know as much as you about getting good tone. I know far more pro and amateur players that like to push the power tubes in their amps than those who don't. It depends on the style of music obviously, but to essentially say that all those guys are deluded is total BS.
> 
> And the separate but related point that 50/100 watt amps outnumber 12/22 watt amps in professional gigging situations by a 100:1 margin is also total BS. Or maybe we just go to very different gigs. I attend or do sound at a lot of festivals in the summer. Nothing metal. A lot of rock, country, blues, roots and that kind of thing, though. I see the odd Twin Reverb, but in my world, 12/22 watt amps outnumber the big ones by a 100:1 margin.


I think we are talking in circles here.

To me, 'big' is 30w and up. You can’t crank a 30w amp non master amp way up enough to get tons of distortion out of the power tubes in most gigging situations without really hurting someone. So power tube distortion is in most practical situations not a big part of the character of a 30w and up rig. I am on the fence on whether a deluxe reissue, at 22w iirc, is 'big' or 'small.'. In most situations except bigger venues you can't really crank it to the point of much power tube breakup either, just some subtle compression (which is nice!), so for most purposes it is 'big.' 

So it is actually pretty rare to see someone actually driving an amp, on a stage, to the point where the lion's share of the grit is coming from the output tubes. As I said earlier, if you make them sweat a bit you can get some nice compression, which can be very pleasing. But out and out distortion? Not unless you are Neil Young. 

I never said that 50/100w amps outnumber smaller ones by 100 to one. I said 'big' and by that i meant my definition of big. My point is best illustrated this way: I have yet to see a Vox Night Train or Traynor Dark Horse on a gig. I guess we have different experiences. For me it's pretty rare to see a guy on a gig with anything smaller than a deluxe reissue. Maybe they grow smaller amps where you are, or the guitarists are just more polite. 

At festival type events I have played or produced, the backline is usually a couple of the new tweed type fenders, a twin, a deluxe reissue, maybe a 50w Marshall 800. Those are all 'big' in my way of looking at it, except **maybe** the deluxe.

I am 48. I play blues, rockabilly, classic rock, and country. Nothing metal either. 

Anyway, not meaning to offend anyone. This realization for me came pretty late in my playing career, after years of struggling with little amps not giving me what I wanted, and I thought it worthwhile sharing. It's all good.


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## starjag (Jan 30, 2008)

greco wants me to buy a Dr. Z Maz 8, so I guess the answer is YES!


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

Agreed, output tube distortion is usually pretty pleasing whereas pre-amp tube distn. is not. End of.........
Another reason guys like Hawksley and Luke use smaller amps is for the sake of portability.
Was Hawksley in his wee Benz? and does he still point the amp at himself like a front monitor?
Getting around to these gigs somtime requires precision packing.
Cheers, d


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## faracaster (Mar 9, 2006)

Still mostly using 15-22 watt amps. Could be a Pro Jr.....a Teixiera EF86,.....a Funk Farm 20.
I actually just came from the studio where I lent the guitar player in my son's band use one of my Pro Jr's and my TEX. What glorious tone he got out of both of them with his Les Paul. 
I find all these amps plenty loud to do any gig I play with them (and yes sometimes they will go through the PA depending on the room size). HOWEVER.....last two gigs I played were with my old Boogie Mark 1 and a Dr. Z Z-Wreck. I did enjoy the increase in volume and spread. But we were outside at both those and I could use the extra umph. I'll likely be back to the smaller amps when we get back to playing clubs in Sept.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

When I think about the rigs I used years ago in my quest for clean sounds I have to shake my head and laugh.

At one point I had an 800 watt H&H power amp driven by a Dean Markely two channel preamp and feeding a Marshall 1960A.

Yes, I know that's way beyond the power handling of that cab. I was seeking clean headroom. I felt that my clean tones were still a bit hairy so I went with mega power.

Sounded great actually, but still didn't get the cleans I wanted.

So I switched to single coils and got great cleans out of any amp I played through.

Doh!

Now, twenty years later, the 38 watt Dr Z 2 X 10 combo I have is WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYY too loud.

There's no way I could crank that sucker up without hurting someone.


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

I have a Carr Sportsmen(18Watts) Ampeg Reverberocket(18 watts),Looking for a tweed deluxe(12-15 watts), Valvetrain, 5f1 and a AA764 champ Klones(5-6 watts) for at home with 12" speakers. I'll never go big again. Happy, Happy, Happy!


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

I've contemplated something like four Pro Jrs ABY'd two per side with two set to run clean and two dirty.


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## notjoeaverage (Oct 6, 2008)

FrankyNoTone said:


> In any event, its the year 2012 and the world hasn't ended and its time to give up the stone knives and bearskins tube tech.


One of my favourite episodes, Joan Collins looked great in the mid 60's.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I haven't owned anything bigger than 50 watts in many years, accept for bass amps. In my experience, one requires at least twice the wattage for bass.

Traynor YCV20 at 15 watts.
Traynor YCV50blue at 50 watts except it's got an Eminence ReignMaker to dial things back a bit.
Traynor DG30D (solid state) at 30 watts.

I've got other amps that I rarely use.

Master volume helps a lot.

Peace, Mooh.


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## RobQ (May 29, 2008)

urko99 said:


> I have a Carr Sportsmen(18Watts) Ampeg Reverberocket(18 watts),Looking for a tweed deluxe(12-15 watts), Valvetrain, 5f1 and a AA764 champ Klones(5-6 watts) for at home with 12" speakers. I'll never go big again. Happy, Happy, Happy!


Carr make some awesome amps. I really liked the Hammerhead.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Budda said:


> I wonder also,
> 
> a) what's the average age of posters on this forum
> b) what's the "general" type of music played by gigging forum members
> c) what would the 15-30 demographic show?


Good question Justin. But dont need to be a youngling, When i jam with my boddies, usualy the drummer needs to be miced..lol.mwith my fargen, i had the less power full amp, other 2 players shad 100w modded plexi.Lol


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I know some of the "older" guys on here still run bigger amps, but it seems from following this thread that most run 30W or less for whatever they play. I know if you went to metalguitarist.org, full of guys 30+ as well, they have 100W halfstacks and play a different style of music then probably most 30+ users on here.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Budda said:


> I know some of the "older" guys on here still run bigger amps, but it seems from following this thread that most run 30W or less for whatever they play. I know if you went to metalguitarist.org, full of guys 30+ as well, they have 100W halfstacks and play a different style of music then probably most 30+ users on here.


Might be a shot in the dark, but i'll say most here would be playing bluesy style and a little US style country!...mixed with a little Smooth rock here and there..


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## b-nads (Apr 9, 2010)

I play about 80% country, and I've downsized a fair bit. I've gone from 60 to 30, to 15 (Tweaker head). Mic'd up, it can get as good cleans as the 30w Black Pearl I had. With its tonal versatility, it covers 90% of what I want - about the only sound I'm still chasing is a good tweed, which is covered by the Valvetrain 416 that I've been gasin' for since the first time I tried one.

I agree with alain completely though - without a mic and pa, you probably don't have a lot of choice but to go with a brute for country cleans in a decent sized venue.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

Been pretty much sticking to my Tungsten Cortez (tweed deluxe clone) and Traynor YGA-1 lately. My current band is doing garage rock, so I never need a really pristine clean tone.


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## Extra_Ally (Sep 6, 2012)

Picked up a 7 Watt amp from Revv Amplification here in the peg and man this thing is a beast. I was never a believer in the small wattage stuff, but this amp has made me a believer! The clean is great on this amp for 7 watts, and the distortion is just awesome! I run it through a pair of V30's and it pounds them well for the wattage its putting out. Its gotta be pushing 15 watts of volume cranked at practice cause my drummer hits hard and he says he can hear it well from behind the kit.
He also had a wattage adjustable amp, i think it was 7 and 30 watts, was very loud and sounded great too, but the 7 watt was perfect for me. Revv is worth checkin out, Dan's a great guy! Flash Intro Page

Doug


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Picked up the new Guitar Player over lunch, and came across an ad for the new (revealed at NAMM 2012) Bad Cat Bobcat 100.

This is nuts, but in a good way. NAMM '12 - Bad Cat Amplification Bobcat 100 Demo - YouTube


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## robare99 (Jan 9, 2012)

100W JCM800 here. That doesn't mean I have to dime it.


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## BEMUSofNrthAmra (Jun 9, 2012)

If I win that 1x10 Voltage Cabinet... I will be part of the low watt amp kick.


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## Cary (May 11, 2011)

My #1 amp is a 40 watt super reverb clone built by sligo amps, but I just bought one of the new fender excelsiors, and it is a super cool, 13 watt amp. Not a whole lot of good when you've got 8 people on stage with you, but awesome as a little basement/solo gig amp.


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## 59jazzmaster (Jan 22, 2013)

They just dont have the sound I am looking for, nice idea for older musicians like myself to save the back as they are easy to carry, but I would rather lug one of my following "proven true" amps:

MAN AMP #1 - '64 Super Reverb with road case - I call it my "Big Kahuna" with wheels. Think of a Leslie in the old days !
MAN AMP #2 - '80 musicman 210=75 ~ 75 watts with 2 X 10" ceramics, damn thing nearly breaks my back sometimes for the size of it !

I do play single coils and never found the low watts to be the right sound, sorry but just how I hear it.




GuitarsCanada said:


> Been a few years now on the explosion of the low watt combo and heads. Are we all ready to get back into the head crushing 50/100 watt yet?


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I love the idea of a msaller lower wattage head or combo, but cant bring myself to do so for one main reason....It seems whenever the amps get smaller, the features/felxibility drops....3 channel amps become 2 channels or less, and youre stuck with only maybe 4 knobs, vs for example the 4-6 knobs per channel of the monsters I like. 

If amps stayed full featured but dropped some of the headroom ,that would be great for me. I dont think I need more than 30watts...ever.

As foir combos, I cant wrap my head around a 1 speaker config....and when you get into 2x12 combos, their so damn heavy.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Great discussion. 

I've sort of gone through a whole range of amps over the past couple of years trying to find what works for me. 

I had a Super Reverb RI, but the band I'm in constantly complained I was too loud even when I had it turned down. So, I bought a Custom Vibrolux Reberb. 2x10 - 40W. Good tone, breaks up early, but I can never turn it up past 1 with the band around or else they start complaining. Later, I got a '73 Champ. It's great for recording, and I even use it at band practice. Don't have to use any dirt pedals that way. 

Last year, I figured I'd get something a bit bigger than the Champ but still low enough wattage that I can overdrive it at gigs. To that end, I built a 5E3 clone with the single 12" speaker. 12 watts should be safe, right? Wrong. The sucker is bloody loud! I've got a 1960 Jensen P12Q in there and I ended up having to buy an attenuator just to use it with the band or at gigs. 

I ended up trading my Super Reverb for a '59 Bassman LTD (50w) back in October. It's lighter than the SRRI, so easier to move.

My most recent trend has been to gig with the 4x10 setup using the Bassman. Having finally discovered the Lovepedal Les Lius, I can get my cranked tweed tone without using the attenuator. What I discovered recently is that while the small-ish amps can be plenty loud, the sonic spread of the open back 410 cabinet of the Bassman gives me much better stage sound at lower volumes. I can hear myself better and so can the band. I just run the amp clean and use the pedal for my OD tone. I've found this to be a much better solution than trying to match the right amp to the right gig.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

I have one but for a variety of reasons it ain't replacing my Twin, at least not for the next couple of lifetimes. They are a nice theory but they just fall short in to many places and to often. My biggest problem with small amps is that I play stand alone because I refuse to have any truck with sound men. It's not that I don't like sound men, it's just that my job is to run my guitar and amp and their job is to stay as far away from me as possible.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Still rocking my Tiny Terror with a 1x12 Avatar cab. As far as Rock n' Roll, it does everything I need. It does one thing, and it does it amazingly well. I even use it in 7 watt mode at a lot of jams.

I have my 1968 Princeton Reverb around for a little more mellow tones, so again, low wattage.

The next step up is my 1966 Ampeg Reverberocket II at about 25 watts. I actually find it to be too much for a lot of playing situations. It has a crazy amount of clean headroom though, so that is one scenario where I would use it. It doesn't break up until it's dimed.

So I guess I am firmly in the low wattage camp.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I also have to admit that I am pretty happy with the Mesa Transatlantic 15 I picked up a little while ago in a trade. At the time I figured I would play around with it and sell it. I think it may have found a spot in the set-up, at least for the foreseeable future. Also running it through a 1x12 Voltage cab


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## Baconator (Feb 25, 2006)

I recently joined a band playing guitar again for the first time in about 9 years. Back then I was playing a Boogie MkIIC+ and using safecracker fingers to try and find the right master volume level between 1 and 2. A few years ago I picked up a Carmen Ghia head and love the tones I can get out of it without making my ears ring too much. I was really worried that I wouldn't be able to get enough clean headroom out of that amp for the new band, but I've actually found the opposite problem - it's a little tricky to turn it up enough to make the amp really shine. I find most tube amps (although certainly not all) need to have the volume up to a minimum level before they start to sound really good regardless of how much power tube distortion this generates. In the case of my Ghia, the amp sound pretty much fantastic from about 9:00 on the volume and up from there. Keep in mind this is an amp that doesn't have a lot of clean headroom and is rated at 18 watts. 

A lot of the choice in amp is dependant on the drummer, playing venues, other musicians in the band, etc. That said, I wonder where guys with 100 watt stacks are playing - at least without attenuators. I don't get out too much anymore, but other than Gordie Johnson there don't seem to be many guitarists anymore playing through full stacks in bars. I just saw the rig rundown for Soundgarden's latest tour and Chris Cornell is playing two 15 watt amps. 

I would love to get my Boogie rocking again, but unless I'm playing outdoors I can't see it happen. There has only been one show where I got its master volume above 2 (but still below 3) and it was definitely too loud, but still kinda fun.


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

I picked up a Yamaha THR10 last summer after trying it out at the local shop a few times, there it didn't sound too bad. Unfortunately when I had it home the volume that the amp would start sounding good with a bit of bass response was a lot louder than I wanted, completely defeating the purpose of buying the amp. I didn't like the gain tones into it and most echo/delay effects made it sound too thin. In the end I returned it, to me it cost too much for too little in return. Especially considering for a little more money you could pick up a decent combo in the used market. So I'm sticking with the Valveking 212 until I breakdown and buy a Fender.


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## The Lullaby (Dec 8, 2010)

Speaking generally here...guys looking for smaller amps/combos are likely guys with better tone or who know tone better.


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## topboost (Nov 18, 2010)

A late comer to this thread.
I've got a '63 ac30 topboost that hasn't been used in a decade. 80 lbs and the loudest 30 watts I've ever used, and it did get used. When I did actively use it was the most glorious tone ever.
But in Vancouver, You'd never get that thing up past idle without soaking the hell out of it. The stages are all small and you'd never get away without facing out front as an unmic'd front fill.
I have a 15 watt filmosound el84 version with 1/2 power mod in a blonde blues junior cab and celestion blue it. A loud bastard that will work at any gig I ever perceive doing again. I bet I could do most shows on the 1/2 power setting.
We all live in tiny boxes now, play on tiny stages with super monitoring, small clubs, hourly rehearsal spots where you have to set up each time to rehearse and no parking available near any venues. How the hell would one get a big rig to a show when having to park 3 blocks away? Taxi? Well there goes the $20 you were going to make.
The big stage gigs are for the fortunate few where they can let a louder amp open up, but that just isn't a reality for 99% of us who play on toy stages. Thank god for the plethora of low wattage amps these days.


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## Bobby1note (Jan 6, 2014)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Been a few years now on the explosion of the low watt combo and heads. *Are we all ready to get back into the head crushing 50/100 watt yet?*


I sure hope not. :smile-new:

As a part-time sound-man, there's nothing worse than dealing with excessive stage-volume. Totally destroys a mix. When I get a guitar player who refuses to turn down, I ask him to aim the amp towards his head. That usually takes care of things pretty quick.:slash: Savvy players know this, but basement rockstars usually need a lil' experience playing out.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Not me. I'm a home player. My 100 watt 2 x 12 too much by about 80 watts. 

What I want is a low watt amp with excellent modelling tones with QUALITY sound at ALL levels. Call me old, I don't care.

Modelling tones are essential for me. I'll never have a collection of outrageously priced boutique amps and micro tube amps of this tone or that

Software is where this is heading (for me)

Guy at long & McWallmart told me that they hadn't sold a stack in months...nobody wants them. including me


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i have a lil nite train right now, and that works well for my apt. it is mated to a nice 1x12 cab and speaker. anything smaller than a 12" spkr sounds thin to my ear. with the gain around 7 and the vol around 10 o'clock i can get a nice classic rock sound that doesn't draw the cops. if i wanna play between 11 am and 6 pm, that's what i use. outside of those hours i have my pod gx. models any sound i could ever want, and does it at volumes that dont disturb anyone, even in my own apt. before that i had an ac4tvh. it sounded waaaayyy better than the lil nitetrain, but was too loud for what i wanted. before that i had a vht classic 18 that sounded really really good but was also way too loud. i also had a roland cube, which pretty much blows away any s.s. _practice amp_ i ever heard anywhere, by anybody. the nite train sounds just terrible if you crank it wide open, but at low vol, it's acceptable.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

blam said:


> I love the AC15. I wish I had the scratch for a handwired version. though the new handwired AC4HW are crazy nice too.


I have an AC4HW, its probably my favorite of all the VOX amps that I have owned. The crappy thing is because they're so nice finding a used one doesn't happen so I had to cave and buy mine new.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

I still prefer a big amp. You don't need to crank it you know LOL. With so many great pedals available, why not use the headroom and sound stage of a large amp?

TG


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

traynor_garnet said:


> I still prefer a big amp. You don't need to crank it you know LOL. With so many great pedals available, why not use the headroom and sound stage of a large amp?
> 
> TG


A bank of pedals will cost you 3-5x more than software. My amp has 0-10 on the knobs but doesn't make any sound until 2 and is too loud by 3. Yes its awesome to hear 2 twelves cranked when nobody is home and the windows are shut (I have to get along with the neighbors and because I don't want to listen to their noise) but for 98% of my playing, its cumbersome


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## sadowsky13 (Feb 26, 2007)

I am of the school that tube amps sound great cranked, I would rather use a lower watt amp cranked that a high watt amp on 2. As well as you get older you start to value your hearing more. The days of ringing in my ears after band practice or a gig are something I don't want to go through again.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

sadowsky13 said:


> I am of the school that tube amps sound great cranked, I would rather use a lower watt amp cranked that a high watt amp on 2. As well as you get older you start to value your hearing more. The days of ringing in my ears after band practice or a gig are something I don't want to go through again.


What?? speak up!

I know what you mean, I've noticed a hearing loss

Actually, my wife notices it WAY more than I do...


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

yeah, i know all about hearing loss. i've had tinnitus for as long as i can remember. i think i was 12 by the time i realized "that sound" isn't crickets, and not everyone hears it. i thought it was normal. since then, steel toe boots, loud amplifiers, and almost 30 yrs of banging on metal for a living has done quite a number on my hearing. high freq is toast, and if there is any background noise while we talk, i'm more reading lips than actually understanding your speech. living on a busy road doesn't help much either. i can only imagine what my tone must sound like to people who can hear well. hahahaha


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## Stonehead (Nov 12, 2013)

Love my Mesa 5:50 +, best of both worlds. It has an excellent master volume on it and the 5 watt mode is perfect for late night playing. When no one is around punch it up to 50 watts and let 'er rip.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

I've yet to hear software that sounds as good as a real amp. There are so many amazing dirt pedals that sound, IMO, just as good as a small amp cranked, and gives you more versatility. I just cannot get enough truly clean headroom with a small amp, and even 20 watts is too loud to really crank up.

No right or wrong, but I keep going back to my tube rectified Bassmaster running clean with pedals.

- - - Updated - - -

I've yet to hear software that sounds as good as a real amp. There are so many amazing dirt pedals that sound, IMO, just as good as a small amp cranked, and gives you more versatility. I just cannot get enough truly clean headroom with a small amp, and even 20 watts is too loud to really crank up.

No right or wrong, but I keep going back to my tube rectified Bassmaster running clean with pedals.


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## dcole (Oct 8, 2008)

I live in a house so I can get away with some volume when the wife is gone. I enjoy using a little re-built PA amp that has a pair of cathode biased 6AQ5's. Its good for 8 watts in push pull. Running that into my Marshall 1965B cab gives an awesome impression of its bigger brothers. I can play clean, crank it up for a bit of OD and dime it for some raunchy rock. I can even use a Fuzz Face (seem to like amps that are ODing all ready) with the amp and get that sweet, awesome punchy tone without having to crank a 1959 Super Lead.

If I really need to be quite (wife is home) then I use a Fender GDEC. I love that thing. It lets me play quite but also has a SD card port so I can throw music on it and jam along. You do what you can. I think the most important point is to just play and have fun.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

I've been playing for over 20 yrs. but until the last year or two I've only ever owned combos (primarily Fender). Now I'm starting to discover the joys of experimenting with speakers, so these days it's all about low-mid powered (ranging from 1/4 - 20W) heads plugged into an assortment of cabs. 

Despite the dozen or so pedals kicking around, I've always preferred the kind of dirt that comes right from the amp, but have found that most lower-wattage combos sound too boxy. But....plugging a 1W head into a 212 sounds HUGE (esp. when compared to a Champ etc.) & gives me tube crunch at neighbor-friendly volumes.


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

Before I played in a band, I pretty much noodled around at home, and was trying all sorts of fun stuff dialing in my tone. I still try different stuff. From trial and error I learned a lot of real good stuff along the way. These days I have a mix of amps. I start at 5W then 12W, 18W, and finally 40W. The 5W is for home, the 12W comes out to family gatherings where there are players jamming. The 18W TMB and the 40W are my gigging amps. Low watt amps cranked at home still damage your hearing. 5W in a bedroom cranked it gonna do damage at home. My 40W '64 Bandmaster has become my #1 gigging amp. Loud cleans are the foundation that I need in a cover band. I add pedals for dirt. Less than 40W, I find playing with a drummer, clean is going to get hairy. Small amps are fun but to me, lack the full eq of a larger amp. There is no way my 5W amp when plugged into my 2x12 Bandmaster cab, is going to sound as full as the Bandmaster amp plugged in to it. Wattage is like engine displacement, there is no replacement, in my opinion. Large amps I stay away from. Like 100W Twins, Super Reverbs, 4x12 cabs and the like. They are very heavy to move around at it gets stale fast, to me. I am sure they sound amazing and ever better than my Bandmaster but the weight to tone trade off is not worth it to me. When I gig I run my 40W Bandmaster head into a 1x12 Avatar G112 cab. It sounds awesome, is light and easy to move around. I get all the volume I need. Actually I don't think I have ever run it over 2 & 1/4 on the volume in my 4 pc band. Live or at rehearsal. Small is fun, but to me medium size is the right fit for my gigs.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

keithb7 said:


> Before I played in a band, I pretty much noodled around at home, and was trying all sorts of fun stuff dialing in my tone. I still try different stuff. From trial and error I learned a lot of real good stuff along the way. These days I have a mix of amps. I start at 5W then 12W, 18W, and finally 40W. The 5W is for home, the 12W comes out to family gatherings where there are players jamming. The 18W TMB and the 40W are my gigging amps. Low watt amps cranked at home still damage your hearing. 5W in a bedroom cranked it gonna do damage at home. My 40W '64 Bandmaster has become my #1 gigging amp. Loud cleans are the foundation that I need in a cover band. I add pedals for dirt. Less than 40W, I find playing with a drummer, clean is going to get hairy. Small amps are fun but to me, lack the full eq of a larger amp. There is no way my 5W amp when plugged into my 2x12 Bandmaster cab, is going to sound as full as the Bandmaster amp plugged in to it. Wattage is like engine displacement, there is no replacement, in my opinion. Large amps I stay away from. Like 100W Twins, Super Reverbs, 4x12 cabs and the like. They are very heavy to move around at it gets stale fast, to me. I am sure they sound amazing and ever better than my Bandmaster but the weight to tone trade off is not worth it to me. When I gig I run my 40W Bandmaster head into a 1x12 Avatar G112 cab. It sounds awesome, is light and easy to move around. I get all the volume I need. Actually I don't think I have ever run it over 2 & 1/4 on the volume in my 4 pc band. Live or at rehearsal. Small is fun, but to me medium size is the right fit for my gigs.


I tend to agree with what you've said here. In a bar 40 watts from two 6L6s is just about ideal - esp. if you need clean.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

ive seen michael white's band a zillion times and their guy plays a 1x12 traynor combo mic'd. (just for an example) i'd argue his tone is a good as any i've heard.
also, i would put forth the notion that tone is not just subjective, but also dependant on it's context. i think some of you might be surprised if you listened to a few isolated guitar tracks. certain ones, the tone by itself is terrible, but in context, it works, and is perfect. so when someone says "you cant get a full sound from a small watt amp", i say, yes you can. and any gear head knows that the old saying "there's no replacement for displacement" is misleading. there are plenty of 1500cc 4 bangers on the street right now that will run circles around someones big block camaro, all day long, and do it with the a/c running and still use less gas.
:sFun_dancing:


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

Points considered! Tone in certain context as well as subjection are all interesting. No one amp does it all. I remain by the fact though that my 68 Vibro Champ plugged into my 2x12 Bandmaster cab does not offer the broader eq of my 40W head. No way. 

Another way to look at it, (back to displacement) is yes a 1500 cc car can get you around town with a/c, spending less gas. However try loading a family of 4 or 5, all your stuff and hauling a tent trailer across Canada. No fun especially up hill. 

Pick the right tool for the job. Amp or vehicle.


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## Bobby1note (Jan 6, 2014)

Do these "amps" count as hi-watt,,, or lo-watt?:slash:

- - - Updated - - -


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Bobby1note said:


> Do these "amps" count as hi-watt,,, or lo-watt?:slash:
> 
> - - - Updated - - -


You must be kidding me?? Whats the purpose of the fake cabs??


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

________________


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## Hammertone (Feb 3, 2006)

Hey! Yeah'
Here come the jesters 1-2-3 It's all part of my fantasy
I love the music And I love to see the crowd
Dancin' in the aisles and singin' out loud Yeah Yeah
Here come the dancers 1 by 1 Your mama's callin' But you're havin' fun
You find you're dancin' on that number 9 cloud
Put your head together and sing it out loud
It's all part of my rock 'n' roll fantasy
Yeah It's all part of my rock 'n' roll dream Yeah

It's all part of my rock 'n' roll fantasy
It's all part of my rock 'n' roll dream

Yeah Put out the spotlights one and all
Let the feelin' get down to your soul
The music's so loud You can hear the sound
Reachin' for the sky and tearin' up the ground

It's all part of my rock 'n' roll fantasy
It's all part of my rock 'n' roll dream Oh yeah
It's all part of my rock 'n' roll fantasy
It's all part of my rock 'n' roll dream Yeah
Fantasy Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah
Fantasy Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah


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## Bobby1note (Jan 6, 2014)

Scotty said:


> You must be kidding me?? Whats the purpose of the fake cabs??


"Showmanship baby,,,,showmanship." These guys are not alone too. :sSig_busted:


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## stringer (Jun 17, 2009)

I read somewhere that those fake amps are becoming more and more common. Probably got them off craigslist!


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Scotty said:


> You must be kidding me?? Whats the purpose of the fake cabs??


They look cool and it helps the sponsor amp company sell amps I suppose. The 'wall of sound' 4-12 stacks are a throwback to the 70's when PA systems sucked and guitarists had to fill the stadium with dbs from a bunch of amps. Now the FOH systems are so good you only need one good miked amp.


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## blaren (May 6, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Been a few years now on the explosion of the low watt combo and heads. Are we all ready to get back into the head crushing 50/100 watt yet?


YES!!!!!!!!!
Like most, it was a lifelong WAR between volume and brutal heavy-iron 100W (or 50) Marshall freightrain stopping power.
Until I discovered (well not like Columbus..well actually just like him. It was ALREADY "discovered" long before me but) EL84 tubes and 18 and 36watters.

GAME (back) ON!!!
Like 2 weeks ago I finally (been GASsing for a while now) got a DSL. Used..the old (discontinued and replaced by the Vietnamese DSL100H that sells for about a grand NEW) JCM2000 DSL100s (or 50s) get around 500 clams.

There I was, minding my own 18w business thinking I had it licked and was getting all that Marshall goodness at reasonable volume levels...and actually, I had a '73 50W and a 1987X for a while after the 18W revolution touched-down and come to think of it...they didn't quite have the Holy Goodness 100W Brutality either...minding my own business and I finally scored a '98 DSL100 (yes the British made JCM2000) and OMG.... NO...NO NO NO and NOOOOOOOOOO!!! There is NOTHING like a 100W Marshall PERIOD.

And so, Game (war) ON (again) :-(
Hey...it does have a MV and is switchable and actually sounds pretty damned fine at respectable volume levels I must do say so myself.


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