# Polyester Finish



## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

Getting stuff planned and sorted for the Hagstrom rebuild/restore... researched the finish expecting either polyurethane or nitro, and instead it's high quality polyester?

Anyone ever use it before? or know who makes it and how applied? I read something about it being more like a resin coating than a finish...

Still a month away before the workshop is up and running. Just like getting stuff researched in advanced. 

Polyurethane would of course be the easiest way to go but, gotta try different things. Original used finish would be ideal, otherwise I may go and try that Mohawk string lacquer and vinyl sealer.


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## nnieman (Jun 19, 2013)

Polyester is (to my understanding) a uv cured sprayed finish.
Its not something that you are going to be able to get it 1 guitar quantity.

Polyurethane is much more appropriate finish for a small shop.
You dont have to glob it on thick, you can do a thin finish with it.

I am not familial with the new water based varnishes so I cant offer any more advice than that.
I still have some oil based varathane here.

I really like target coatings em6000 water based lacquer.
It goings on well, has excellent burn in (until its cured - about 30 days).

Nathan


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Look up highline guitars on YouTube. He uses polyester once Ina while. Spray it in, let it sit outside for 5 minutes. Sand away


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

knight_yyz said:


> Look up highline guitars on YouTube. He uses polyester once Ina while. Spray it in, let it sit outside for 5 minutes. Sand away


Ah looks like SOLAREZ is what he's using that's UV cured... 

I watch his vids a lot... many times he's a tease. He'll have it all out and talk about it, then never show actually doing it. Not always but often. That said I learned a lot from his videos and plan on building a CNC based off his plans. Has plans for a nice pickup winder now as well. Can buy them, or just watch the video and easy to figure out.






Browsing now and thinking it's one of those things found everywhere in the USA and nowhere in Canada, except Amazon for 3x the price.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

This is the video you want. IIRC solarez has made a special resin for guitars only, I'm sure the highline guy has a vid for that too


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I can't believe it's not lacquer, by solarez


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

Wonder if worth it.... Again, I've never tried nitro yet, and it's $9 a spray can.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Solarez is available in Canada. 

Solarez


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Thinking about the finishes noted above, if you're going to get some equipment and spray, if you're not looking for a wipe on or brush on finish - I'd just do the regular nitro lacquer, to me it's the best and one of the easiest to work with if you follow the rules.

I just finished a semi hollow maple topped guitar this past weekend using Goudey's regular 905 nc lacquer tinted amber using universal colours (yellow, orange and brown) - I already had it sealed up clear and it had sat for a week, so that last weekend I was able to get enough material on so it can just sit for 2 to 3 weeks hardening up and then it'll get a wet sand/polish and it's done.

Here's what I think are pro's for lacquer that IMO make it the best finish

*dries faster than anything that isn't catalysed and when catalysed dries just as fast - builds better than anything but polyE.
*very easy to spray, probably the easiest to control
*most forgiving material to work with - got overspray just wet sand, got a run just wait and scrape it, got a chip just drop fill - complete burn in without witness lines.
*tons of compatible materials to use as tint or toner
*contrary to popular belief - widely available in Canada from millwork, cabinet and paint suppliers - also available to the public in many places

-Beware the rattle cans are filled with a very low solids thinned out mix so it takes a lot of coats compared to mixing your own and spraying HVLP



















PS - I didn't even grain fill the Mahogany as I didn't want to get it on the Maple - note the lacquer filled the grain just fine, spray with high solids material = less work, more fun...


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

I've been thinking of getting a spray gun... I have a 3Hp 27Gal compressor, been trying to figure out the best way to make a spray booth of some sort. Rather in the basement with the workshop, but, not if spraying Nitro...

Got some more details of my guitar and apparently it was originally cherry red. I'm in debate between sanding it out and clear nitro... or... Gibson vintage cherry.

I'd like to make the grain pop a bit more, but, not a fan of what I've seen online, with adding acrylic paint to drywall filler and the sanding. I do have zpoxy which I am eager to try and from what I've seen online helps the grain to show up a bit more.

I guess zpoxy 3-4 layers and sand to seal it. Use the Mohawk recommended vinyl sealer. Then add some StewMac cherry tint to Nitro, spray a few layers, then finish with clear?

Would that be the way to go? if I go back to cherry? Otherwise, same thing minus the Cherry tint?

Then I guess 4-6 weeks before final wetsand and polish.

I've painted a few guitars, but always with auto paint, and 2k Spraymax clear. I'd like to go a bit more 'vintage' with this project. Up my skills.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Garnet shellac would save a few steps. Use it thin for sealing then stronger for colour. Nitro on top of the shellac. Tint the nitro. 

Or dye the guitar, shellac then nitro... Shellac will pop the grain


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

I'd like to avoid staining the wood direct, in case I screw up. Few sealer coats I think would make it easier to sand off.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

It's pretty hard to screw up dye. Unless you are doing something fancy like a sunburst in dye...


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## nnieman (Jun 19, 2013)

You don’t have to use sanding sealer over zpoxy
Either zpoxy or shellac will work for sanding sealer.
If you are spraying in your basement then go em6000
It’s fantastic and the only thing I would spray indoors. (Without a spray booth)
It’s very similar acting to nitro expect that once it’s cured (30 days) there’s no more burn in.

I have sprayed it successfully with a $30 “critter” sprayer from lee valley.
I have since upgraded to an on sale mastercraft.... it works great.

I have some better quality spray guns but lent them to a friend....who neglected to clean them.

In all honesty the mastercraft works great and has a 3 year warranty.
I’m pretty sure I only paid like $45 for it.

Nathan


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

If you get an LVLP gun as opposed to HVLP you won't be producing massive amounts of cloud/overspray. No booth required. Just good ventilation for the VOC's.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

You can buy clear nitro in quart cans at home depot. It's called Watco brushing lacquer. It is nitrocellulose.
I thinned it with lacquer thinner and sprayed it with my $40 LVLP touch up gun, and it works. Out of the can the solids content is very high, with low smell, so it would make a great clear grain filler brushed on and level sanded.

Cut with lacquer thinner it sprays fine, and I barely know what I'm doing.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

knight_yyz said:


> It's pretty hard to screw up dye. Unless you are doing something fancy like a sunburst in dye...


you can go too dark.......too much in the mix. Been there/done that, had to sand it off........which is hard to do cause dye penetrates so well


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Well if you can't follow mixing instructions don't blame the dye


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Dye directly to the wood really needs careful testing testing on test pieces from the same lumber.


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

nnieman said:


> You don’t have to use sanding sealer over zpoxy
> Either zpoxy or shellac will work for sanding sealer.


The Mohawk page for the instrument lacquer mentions something about a sealer that has some flexibility to it is recommended and recommended the vinyl sealer.

I figured 2-3 layers of zpoxy and sanded down... seals the pores and from what I've seen online, brings the grain out nicely... then 2 coats of sealer then nitro.

I've never stained before and every other site I see has variations of how to get something like a vintage cherry colour. Stain the wood then seal... seal it, then stain so if mess up it can sand off easily... some say for the cherry to grain fill, seal, and tint the first few layers of nitro.

I know reranch has that cherry translucent nitro in a can but of course being Canadian we all know that's just not gonna happen. 

I do like the idea of getting a spray gun and getting away from rattlecans though. I have a design made up for a collapsible table top spray booth that vents right out the basement window. For many finishes it should work... nitro though has me worried. Sounds much more toxic and gasses off fumes for 4-6 weeks.


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

tomee2 said:


> Dye directly to the wood really needs careful testing testing on test pieces from the same lumber.


Yeah, exactly... and I have no scraps of mahogany, and definitely no same-lumber scraps from a 50yr old guitar.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

If you seal then stain/dye, it won't stain very well. Stain first. If you are worried about how deep the stain/dye goes, you control that by final sanding grit. For example, try staining/dyeing a hardwood like maple sanded to 4000 grit wont stain very well, but stain the same piece at 250 grit and you're golden. If it is a softwood then you may encounter blotching. 

If you want to use stain, try a gel stain, almost impossible to make a mistake, as it is wipe on and wipe off. The gel wont allow massive penetration


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

Well, what I have is mahogany, nice grain pattern but doesn't 'pop'... so, stain black, sand, black again, sand back and then hit it with the cherry then zpoxy? I assume zpoxy last because will need to get the black into the grain first.

I'm trying to get as close to the Gibson cherry, like the backs of Les Pauls, or the SGs. I have an Agile Les Paul, and I know (because Rondo told me) that it's translucent poly with the red in the poly, not stained, to get the cherry colour and it's a real nice cherry.

It looks nice natural like it is now.... but a bit bland. It might 'pop' a bit more with the zpoxy because again, seen many videos where that stuff is almost like an oil finish for making the grain nice. Maybe stain black and sand it back and forget cherry? I have time for the debate between the two while I continue to gut the workshop. Serial# shows originally cherry, and although more work, I like the cherry more. I'll never get this 100% restored again, but would be nice to get as close as possible just for the practice in doing it. 

Found a place in Sweden, no more pickguards, but has NOS parts, namely the pickup rings and knobs. The rings are very distinct looking unlike standard ones with a raised inner lip. Knobs are nice, had some back and forth (small language barrier) and I think the splined are no more, just D-shaft or Solid shaft left, and can but the inserts that say volume/tone.

$42USD for a pair of rings with screws
$72USD for a set of 4 knobs
$14USD for a set of inserts for the knobs
+ shipping

Rings were about as expected, the knobs really caught me off-guard. Debating how much is it worth it (come resale time) to bother with '70s NOS parts... versus modern Hagstrom parts. I can get the regular generic rings and Hagstrom style knobs for about $10.

Also, solid shaft CTS pots are easily found... but the example of pots he sent, the solid shaft in his photo is very weird... I'm sure a regular solid shaft will work though.

Pickups, I decided on Iron Gear Rolling Mills... or if can find cheap Hagstrom HJ-50's which Hagstrom a few days ago told me would be as close to the '70s pickups as they have. I guess every years the pickups in the '70s changes specs and manufacturers so no real way to find a set that's the same.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

You want faded cherry or bright cherry? Yes stain/dye black a few times between sanding. seal it with garnet shellac or your zpoxy stuff. I recommend ColorFX dyes from Wood Essence (the same dyes stewmac sells but in much smaller bottles) I prefer using alcohol for mixing, but you can use water. Follow the mixing instructions!! one 15 ml bottle per 473ml of water/alcohol. They have bright red cherry and faded cherry. You can even add the dye to shellac if you want to go that route. You can mix thinner or stronger, but i found the normal mix to be fine. It is not hard to dye mahogany, my PGK JR kit was dyed and I had no blotching. You can probably add the dye to the zpoxy if you wanted but i would look that up.


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

Thanks for the info...

Hard to find a decent photo of the colour... old guitars and non-professional photos so, depending on how much light hits them, some look way too dark and some too bright. 

This is sorta close... possibly the SG Red Wine even.

Hopefully when the shop is done and I start making a few bodies from scratch I'll have actual practice wood/scraps. But up until this point, I've basically rebuilt old damaged guitars and if I refinished them, it was custom mixed auto-paint in a rattlecan with 2K clear. They've come out great, glass smooth, but time to try other finishes.

Actually good examples of images because as you can see, new Swede's use standard pickup rings, and vintage style Gibson knobs.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

Red vs Agred Cherry Vs Bordeaux You can mix the red double strength to really make it pop, Or you can mix. I mixed aged cherry with bordeaux for my PGK JR


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

IIRC, this is 50/50 Bordeaux and Aged cherry. Turned out exactly as i wanted it.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

knight_yyz said:


> Well if you can't follow mixing instructions don't blame the dye


instructions???? actually read & follow instructions??? where's the fun in that?


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

Yeah, that would be close to what I am after....

Gibson Heritage Cherry, kept calling it Vintage because I think that's StewMacs TransTint's name for it or something

Photowise, on my screen anyways... yours and it are dang close.

Samples though, the aged cherry looks like brown, no red.


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

knight_yyz said:


> IIRC, this is 50/50 Bordeaux and Aged cherry. Turned out exactly as i wanted it.


I keep looking at those colour samples for Bordeaux and Aged Cherry... I can't see those being that red. Are you sure it wasn't Red plus Aged Cherry?


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

yes i am sure


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## nnieman (Jun 19, 2013)

THRobinson said:


> Well, what I have is mahogany, nice grain pattern but doesn't 'pop'... so, stain black, sand, black again, sand back and then hit it with the cherry then zpoxy? I assume zpoxy last because will need to get the black into the grain first.
> 
> I'm trying to get as close to the Gibson cherry, like the backs of Les Pauls, or the SGs. I have an Agile Les Paul, and I know (because Rondo told me) that it's translucent poly with the red in the poly, not stained, to get the cherry colour and it's a real nice cherry.
> 
> ...


Those knobs and rings are so close to standard that from a few feet away no one will notice.

Nathan


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## THRobinson (Jun 29, 2014)

Weird... I don't deal with stains much, but spent a few years doing watercolor painting, airbrushing pinup girls, etc... And those colours would not work on white paper. That's the thing though, staining mahogany not paper. 

I bought a kit guitar last year, hoped to paint before too cold outside but, shipping delays and they send a cracked neck that was concealed so had to wait for a 2nd neck and sent the wrong neck... Cheap China/eBay kits... Just say no. 

Anyways, 1 neck is here and mahogany of some type. Not the same as the Hagstrom but, will have to be my tester wood.


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## nnieman (Jun 19, 2013)

Man you would be amazed how some stains react with different woods.
The same stain on ash, oak, mahogany & pine will all be totally different looking.

Do you need some mahogany scraps?
I always have offcuts you could have for the cost of shipping.

Nathan


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

The samples are dyed maple, the junior is Honduran Mahogany


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