# gear and divorce



## kruts (Apr 30, 2006)

Does anyone have any experience with an ex-wife requesting half of your guitars and amps during a divorce proceeding?

I'm interested in hearing your story... were the guitars and amps viewed as "family assets", etc?

Thanks!


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Do you make any money from playing? A friend argued that he did and as such his gear was considered "tools of the trade" and his wife could not take items that would impact his income. It was awhile ago, not certain it still applies.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I remember, when going through my divorce, that I had to specify in my separation agreement that I wanted to maintain ownership of my guitar (an old Martin acoustic that was worth about $1,000.00 at that time) and other specific items (such as a stamp collection...valued at about $800.00 at that time).

Once this was established and written into the agreement, it was not challenged.

Hope this helps and I also hope you are asking on behalf of someone else and not yourself.

Cheers

Dave


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

hey, if you need a place to stash some gear for a while, just ship it on over here. she'll never find it.


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## RobQ (May 29, 2008)

The value of any property you acquired during the marriage is subject to division. That doesn't mean she gets half your guitars specifically, but if you keep them she gets some shared asset or assets of equivalent value.

If you owned the guitars before you were married, or they were given to you (just you) as a gift by some third party then they don't count as shared marital property.

I have been through all this crap.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

As I read that, I was hoping that it was rhetorical, or as Dave mentioned, about a friend.
If not, I'm sorry for your predicament.

Does she at least play?
If not, it seems like a pretty low tactic, probably because she knows what your gear means to you.
What, does she want half of your clothes too? I didn't think so.
If the monetary value is a concern of hers, why wouldn't she just ask for compensation, rather than the actual gear.
It just seems like a last jab to me.

No experience with this, so I'm of no help there, sorry.
When I split with a common-law spouse, my gear was never an issue.
She'd actually bought me a few things, but wouldn't dream of asking for any of it.

I hope you get to retain what you have, good luck.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

RobQ said:


> The value of any property you acquired during the marriage is subject to division. That doesn't mean she gets half your guitars specifically, but if you keep them she gets some shared asset or assets of equivalent value.
> 
> If you owned the guitars before you were married, or they were given to you (just you) as a gift by some third party then they don't count as shared marital property.
> 
> I have been through all this crap.


+1 This is how it works, at least in Ontario. BC might have different laws. As far as I understood during my divorce proceedings, the matrimonial home or the value of it gets split between the two of you, regardless of whether you paid for it by yourself or bought it before the marriage. The rest of the assets are divided according to what RobQ mentioned.


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

BEEN THERE. it boils down to the judge. Period. Some will rule in your favour. Others not so much. Divorce sucks. Done it twice.

CT.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

RobQ said:


> The value of any property you acquired during the marriage is subject to division. That doesn't mean she gets half your guitars specifically, but if you keep them she gets some shared asset or assets of equivalent value.
> 
> If you owned the guitars before you were married, or they were given to you (just you) as a gift by some third party then they don't count as shared marital property.
> 
> I have been through all this crap.





Chito said:


> +1 This is how it works, at least in Ontario. BC might have different laws. As far as I understood during my divorce proceedings, the matrimonial home or the value of it gets split between the two of you, regardless of whether you paid for it by yourself or bought it before the marriage. The rest of the assets are divided according to what RobQ mentioned.





CocoTone said:


> BEEN THERE. it boils down to the judge. Period. Some will rule in your favour. Others not so much. Divorce sucks. Done it twice.
> 
> CT.


Is this (i.e., the above) dependent on whether or not there is a separation agreement?

Cheers

Dave


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

greco said:


> Is this (i.e., the above) dependent on whether or not there is a separation agreement?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


A separation agreement is one that is made between two parties. A judge is for when the parties can't agree and it goes to court. 

Some non playing partners can be cruel. I have a friend that can't get anything out of the house. He finally got his strat back... after she pitched it at him out the door. That's a US strat.


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## RobQ (May 29, 2008)

greco said:


> Is this (i.e., the above) dependent on whether or not there is a separation agreement?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


The basic concept in law is roughly equal division of marital assets. If you don't come to a separation agreement on your own a judge will have the same principle in mind when carving things up. It's almost always better to come to an agreement on your own, because court is expensive - a good family lawyer in Toronto costs about $500 an hour. Yes, I said an hour. So you can easily burn rough $20k in legal fees each.

Plus when you negotiate you have some control or influence over the outcome. Whereas a judge may just decide that everything be liquidated and the cash divided up, or may make arbitrary choices.

Basically you add up all your assets, exclude things you each brought into the marriage (ie already owned) and gifts, figure out the value of everything, and then divide them in a way that provides roughly equal value.

The one big exception to the rule of excluding stuff you brought into the marriage is the 'matrimonial home'. If you or she already owned a house or cottage or inherited it during the course of your marriage, it counts as marital property no matter what and it's value counts among the things to be divided. A boat with beds counts too. Anything you can sleep in.

Absolutely get a lawyer's advice. Family law is pretty complex and much of it is counter-intuitive. Plus everything I said above is for Ontario; BC may have some differences.

I assume there's no kids? Because if there are then complexity goes up by a factor of about 10.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Thanks RobQ...I appreciate you taking the time to write a detailed response.

Cheers

Dave


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

...and if you are having 'settlement nastiness' in the manner that the soon-to-be-EX is being nasty, i'd move some of my fav/most expensive stuff to an un-named location. This is particularly effective if she never paid much attention to your gear but as the nastiness progresses, you can bet that she'll come and have a look at it.

I made a very fair settlement offer (in fact, the common friends of myself and my ex of the moment said that it was too generous) and I was wondering why she was dragging her feet. I got the ol' spidey senses tingling and put a keylogger on the computer (records every keystroke). I found out that she was communicating with the guy she was seeing and discussing how to get more.

I'll tell ya...women...tough to find a good one. Aside from the few good ones, they're sweet when they're about 18.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

smorgdonkey said:


> ...and if you are having 'settlement nastiness' in the manner that the soon-to-be-EX is being nasty, i'd move some of my fav/most expensive stuff to an un-named location. This is particularly effective if she never paid much attention to your gear but as the nastiness progresses, you can bet that she'll come and have a look at it.


Smorgdonkey...No disrespect intended, but isn't the potential for future "issues" a huge risk if you start moving gear (etc) out of the house? 

In addition, the additional legal expenses incurred (if this became a legal battlefield) might end up costing more than the gear you moved.

Cheers

Dave


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Agree with previous comments about the advantages of negotiating your own separation agreement and divvying up the stuff yourselves vs. allowing a judge to arbitrarily decide what to do with it. When my ex started going down the guitars/golf clubs/goalie equipment road I suggested that we inventory all of her shoes, purses & clothing....that was the last I ever heard of it and even managed to keep a brand new LCD TV. Surprisingly enough, she had enough sense to realize that being able to come to an agreement between the two of us was better than allowing lawyers to stir the pot so that they could get their cut of our savings & property.


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## RobQ (May 29, 2008)

greco said:


> Smorgdonkey...No disrespect intended, but isn't the potential for future "issues" a huge risk if you start moving gear (etc) out of the house?
> 
> In addition, the additional legal expenses incurred (if this became a legal battlefield) might end up costing more than the gear you moved.
> 
> ...


Yep. Absolutely.


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## RobQ (May 29, 2008)

greco said:


> Thanks RobQ...I appreciate you taking the time to write a detailed response.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


No problem, man. Good luck to you.

If you want to take this offline for any reason, message me. When I was going through my own divorce I always found it very helpful and reassuring to talk to others who had been through it.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

greco said:


> Smorgdonkey...No disrespect intended, but isn't the potential for future "issues" a huge risk if you start moving gear (etc) out of the house?
> 
> In addition, the additional legal expenses incurred (if this became a legal battlefield) might end up costing more than the gear you moved.
> 
> ...



Depends how much attention she paid to your gear & whether or not she can prove what you own (i.e. did you pay cash or use the family VISA). Just don't make it too obvious.

But however you handle the gear question, beware the joint bank accounts..... I've heard too many stories of guys getting completely screwed over but having zero recourse because it was a joint account (i.e. mortgage payments bouncing because someone decided to drain the account). My buddy is on the hook with VISA because his ex (he has a great name for her but I probably can't write it here) forged his signature on an application for a new credit card while they were separated, which in the eyes of the collections agency is "still married". I have zero sympathy for the greedy little.....


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

RobQ said:


> No problem, man. Good luck to you.
> 
> If you want to take this offline for any reason, message me. When I was going through my own divorce I always found it very helpful and reassuring to talk to others who had been through it.


Many thanks for the offer RobQ. However, I wet through my divorce 20+ years ago.

I was thanking you as the information you provided will be helpful to* kruts,* the OP.

Cheers

Dave


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

I thought I responded to the question about having a separation agreement. I believe you meant the Prenuptial Agreement as opposed to the Separation Agreement which happens after the separation has happened. And to clarify the issue with the matrimonial home, regardless of whether there is a prenuptial agreement or not, the matrimonial home is divided between the couple. And this doesn't just apply to married couples, once you have lived together in a house, the house becomes the matrimonial home. I originally thought partners have to live together in the same house for a year but I've been told recently that it applies as soon as it has been established that the couple is living together in a house, even if it is less than a year.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Roryfan said:


> Depends how much attention she paid to your gear & whether or not she can prove what you own (i.e. did you pay cash or use the family VISA). Just don't make it too obvious.
> 
> But however you handle the gear question, beware the joint bank accounts..... I've heard too many stories of guys getting completely screwed over but having zero recourse because it was a joint account (i.e. mortgage payments bouncing because someone decided to drain the account). My buddy is on the hook with VISA because his ex (he has a great name for her but I probably can't write it here) forged his signature on an application for a new credit card while they were separated, which in the eyes of the collections agency is "still married". I have zero sympathy for the greedy little.....


...and that's why I should have said "particularly applicable" instead of "particularly effective". If she doesn't know sh!t about gear then why not? I am not advocating carrying cases out past the window that she is standing in.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Chito said:


> I thought I responded to the question about having a separation agreement. I believe you meant the Prenuptial Agreement as opposed to the Separation Agreement which happens after the separation has happened. And to clarify the issue with the matrimonial home, regardless of whether there is a prenuptial agreement or not, the matrimonial home is divided between the couple. And this doesn't just apply to married couples, once you have lived together in a house, the house becomes the matrimonial home. I originally thought partners have to live together in the same house for a year but I've been told recently that it applies as soon as it has been established that the couple is living together in a house, even if it is less than a year.


That one on the matrimonial home is complete & utter B.S., but the law often has nothing to do with fairness & justice. This being said, with the exception of the matrimonial home, a good prenup should protect assets obtained prior to and inheritances rec'd during marriage. It's very important to never put said inheritance into a joint account & have a nice paper trail showing that it came from your family to you & stayed in your sole possession throughout the course of the marriage.


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## kruts (Apr 30, 2006)

Guitar is dear to my heart


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

kruts said:


> Unfortunately I'm going through a divorce...


Very sorry to hear this, Kruts. 

Do you have friends and family locally that can support you emotionally?

Take good care of yourself....you will both make it through.

Cheers

Dave


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

The only piece of advice I can offer is to try and get it done quickly and without a lot of fighting. Try to get your gear but if it ends up in some kind of long and expensive legal action, cut your losses and move on. Lawyers love feuding ex spouses, its an excellent income for them with very minimal work. They care for nobody but the hours booked. Right now, you may have many ugly feelings, which is natural. Trust me, they will go away and when its all said and done you will never recover lawyer fees, ever. Depending on who is doing the leaving (because there is no such thing as an amicable divorce) you will either be the hurt one or the one already moved on. The hurt ones will try to fight sometimes. In the end it is not worth it.

I wasted $17,000 when my wife ran off with my kids 20 years ago. Today I could kiss her for doing it.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Wise words ........time to focus on YOU.. make YOU happy. And from now on...it's her opinion.... which you probably disagree with 





GuitarsCanada said:


> The only piece of advice I can offer is to try and get it done quickly and without a lot of fighting. Try to get your gear but if it ends up in some kind of long and expensive legal action, cut your losses and move on. Lawyers love feuding ex spouses, its an excellent income for them with very minimal work. They care for nobody but the hours booked. Right now, you may have many ugly feelings, which is natural. Trust me, they will go away and when its all said and done you will never recover lawyer fees, ever. Depending on who is doing the leaving (because there is no such thing as an amicable divorce) you will either be the hurt one or the one already moved on. The hurt ones will try to fight sometimes. In the end it is not worth it.
> 
> I wasted $17,000 when my wife ran off with my kids 20 years ago. Today I could kiss her for doing it.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

GuitarsCanada said:


> The only piece of advice I can offer is to try and get it done quickly and without a lot of fighting. Try to get your gear but if it ends up in some kind of long and expensive legal action, cut your losses and move on. Lawyers love feuding ex spouses, its an excellent income for them with very minimal work. They care for nobody but the hours booked. Right now, you may have many ugly feelings, which is natural. Trust me, they will go away and when its all said and done you will never recover lawyer fees, ever. Depending on who is doing the leaving (because there is no such thing as an amicable divorce) you will either be the hurt one or the one already moved on. The hurt ones will try to fight sometimes. In the end it is not worth it.
> 
> I wasted $17,000 when my wife ran off with my kids 20 years ago. Today I could kiss her for doing it.


It will probably take a year or two, but things do get better. People told me that at the time and I didn't believe it, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. Hindsight being 20/20, I can't believe that we prolonged the agony for as long as we did. The worst relationship I've had since my divorce, including the stalker that I had to sick the cops on (crazy in the head = crazy in the bed) was still better than the last 5 yrs of the marriage.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Sorry to hear kruts.
The quicker it's over, the better. Like a band-aid.

Lean on someone, if you have to. Take care.


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## kruts (Apr 30, 2006)

Thanks!


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