# Lawsuit guitars. definition.



## Guest (Mar 13, 2014)

Came across this kijiji ad explaining how 'lawsuit guitars' are
mislabeled in 'for sale' ads. Thought I'd share.










Lawsuit Guitars

There seems to be a lot of reference to "lawsuit era" guitars on Kijiji and ebay these days, there is a 
lot misconceptions about this "lawsuit era"

1. There is no lawsuit " era"
2. There is only one lawsuit, filed by NORLIN, Gibson's partner company, against EGLER MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS. 
Elger had a contract with Yoshino Gakki of Japan to build guitars for retail in the North American market. Elger's 
lead brand name was Ibanez, among other off brands people refer to as lawsuit guitars. Norlin filed a lawsuit 
against Egler on June 28 1977 in Philadelphia District Court. The suit claimed that Gibson's trademark "book scroll" 
headstock design was being unlawfully copied by Elger and its various other brand names. The suit was settled 
out of court and the result is and has remained confidential. Egler had already changed the headstock design in 
its 1976 catalogs, they opted for a " Guild" style headstock instead. The Ibanez guitars that have a book scroll 
headstock that are pre 1976 are the guitars in question. Only Yoshino Gakki was sued., no other Japanese 
production was sued.
3. Fender has never sued over its likeness copyright.
4. Martin warned Takamine by letter not legal action over headstock and logo likness.
5. just because you have a Japanese guitar made in the 70's, doesn't mean it is worth a lot of money because of 
Norlins lawsuit. These productions were made to LOOK like American made guitars and most early ones don't have 
the build quality of American made guitars. 
6. There are some excellent Japanese guitars makers and some of these guitars ARE as good as American models, 
Greco real series, Burny, Orville by Gibson Japan, JV series for Fender Japan, Tokai Japan etc.
Aspen, Lotus, Vibra, Mansfield, Vantage, Granada, Raven etc, etc, etc are not lawsuit guitars, so sell them as well 
made Japanese guitars that are getting rare and are collectible, they don't need the title LAWSUIT to be cool, 
good playing guitars.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

a lawsuit guitar is defined as an overpriced guitar found on Kijiji


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I know it says, "there was no era", but do you think some people are referring to it as a time in history where there _was_ a lawsuit in the works, since it just happens that there was quality instruments coming out of Japan at the time?

The only issues with the above thought are 1) it may be giving kijidiots too much credit, and 2) The quality of the japanese guitars decreasing immediately after Ibanez changed there headstocks is unlikely.

Does anyone know when the quality of japanese guitars dropped? Or, did the companies shut down at different times - obviously stopping production of some quality instruments?


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

I saw this ad also and thought it odd...guy must have had his fill of people asking stupid money for low quality MIJ's or embellishing their worth. Good read though


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Scotty said:


> I saw this ad also and thought it odd...guy must have had his fill of people asking stupid money for low quality MIJ's or embellishing their worth. Good read though


Which ad? Was it the one for the $1800 Tokai?

If so, I saw that and thought, WTF? I may not know my law suit era guitars, but that just seemed way too high. I could be wrong.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

God...can't take everything so black and White really. LawSuit era is definied mostly for the late 70's era..and some seem to extend it to early 80's for other companies. Fender DID try to sue quite a few companies..Tokai, Fernandez...and a few other small ones..they just did'nt made it as public as Gibson did. 

Price wise., specially tokai, have LP models that can fetch up to 6000$ for collectors and specially in Europe...are they worth it?...don't know. but some are extremely rare. 

@Acandour...Japaness Quality was always good..and poor..just like any other places..some factory made insanely good guitars..and some made total POS..


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

adcandour said:


> Which ad? Was it the one for the $1800 Tokai?
> 
> If so, I saw that and thought, WTF? I may not know my law suit era guitars, but that just seemed way too high. I could be wrong.


no, the ad that Laristotle posted. It's not even an ad even, just an opinion. 

I love _some _MIJ guitars...but not their inflated prices.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

Martin and Takamine had a well documented legal battle. There may have been others during that same period (70s)


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## surlybastard (Feb 20, 2011)

Thanks for the clarification, I knew people perverted the 'lawsuit' expression for resale purposes but I wasn't aware it was to such a wide degree. Good information to have.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

wether the ad is 100% accurate or not, it's close enough for kijidiots. i applaud the guy. hopefully, in don quixote fashion, he will next battle some of the other ridiculous things that abound there. i emailed him and encouraged him to hang out here.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Scotty said:


> no, the ad that Laristotle posted. It's not even an ad even, just an opinion.
> 
> I love _some _MIJ guitars...but not their inflated prices.


I'm a goof. I didn't see the link, so I just thought it was something Larry whipped up, _because_ of a post he saw. Rough night, tougher morning.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I'm gonna throw a wrench in the works and remind everyone about the Gibson/PRS lawsuit in the early 2000's


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## GUInessTARS (Dec 28, 2007)

Didn't the U.S. government sue Gibson recently for making guitars out of wood?
So there should be lawsuit era PRS's and lawsuit era Gibsons.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

laristotle said:


> Aspen, Lotus, Vibra, Mansfield, Vantage, Granada, Raven etc, etc, etc are not lawsuit guitars, so sell them as well
> made Japanese guitars that are getting rare and are collectible, they don't need the title LAWSUIT to be cool,
> good playing guitars.


Granadas aren't really collectible.
If they were I'd have sold mine long ago.

My Les Paul copy does have a headstock very close to the Gibson shape--but I don't consider it a lawsuit guitar.








My EB-3 copy was made a year or so later and they had changed the headstock a bit-








Still not a lawsuit, although the change could have been influenced by a lawsuit.
But they are decent instruments.
I really like the bass, and the LP copy was better after I replaced the pickups.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I believe that my Burny is from the eighties, but it still has the full shebang...



'01 Tokai...



I'm not sure if they, Gibson, have any bearing on what gets made within Japan.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Those are closer than my LP copy.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I noticed that the Burnys had changed later, to a diamond made up of three parallel lines.


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## rush2112 (Oct 2, 2010)

I once owned a MANN Melody Maker in honey sunburst, a copy of a Les Paul Jr.

I researched the name after buying it and understand, any of these guitars shipped to the U.S. had the headstocks sawed off, leaving some models, only found in Canada, very rare. Someone made a nice website about these guitars.

http://mannguitars.com/about.cfm


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## jtienhaara (Dec 4, 2013)

Didn't Gibson sue Yamaha in the late 70s over the Yamaha SG line? (Which look a bit more like Les Pauls than SGs, but it was a trademark thing AFAIK, so Yammy renamed the series SBG in the US.)

Anyway there is definitely a difference between "lawsuit guitar" (a guitar that was the subject of a lawsuit) and "lawsuit era guitar" (totally meaningless, although typically it is intended to mean "70s guitar made in Japan").


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

to my perception, lots of people see a japanese les paul from back in the day and immediately assume it's worth big bux, and they call it a lawsuit guitar. the term is more accurately used for the old ibanez stuff. 
that said, i really wish more people understood that rare does not necessarily mean desirable or valuable. the guy with the purple, brown and orange epi les paul that advertises above the new price because "its a super rare color" makes me want to find him and strangle him.


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## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> to my perception, lots of people see a japanese les paul from back in the day and immediately assume it's worth big bux, and they call it a lawsuit guitar. the term is more accurately used for the old ibanez stuff.
> that said,* i really wish more people understood that rare does not necessarily mean desirable or valuable*. the guy with the purple, brown and orange epi les paul that advertises above the new price because "its a super rare color" makes me want to find him and strangle him.


Bingo. Rarity or age doesn't necessarily add to the value.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

cheezyridr said:


> to my perception, lots of people see a japanese les paul from back in the day and immediately assume it's worth big bux, and they call it a lawsuit guitar. the term is more accurately used for the old ibanez stuff.
> that said, i really wish more people understood that rare does not necessarily mean desirable or valuable. the guy with the purple, brown and orange epi les paul that advertises above the new price because "its a super rare color" makes me want to find him and strangle him.


ya, some things are "rare" for a reason....ie low appeal/demand.


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## Guest (Mar 15, 2014)

I recently bought a used case for my 70's Mann LP Custom.
Took it with me to make sure it fit (it does). The seller made
a trade offer on it. 70's El Degas Hummingbird.


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

rollingdam said:


> a lawsuit guitar is defined as an overpriced guitar found on Kijiji


So very true and funny!!


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

*The good ole days were not so good*



J S Moore said:


> Bingo. Rarity or age doesn't necessarily add to the value.


I started hanging around Fender guitar shops in 1956. My hazy memory is of very inconsistent quality, with many new guitars which would not stay in tune, and could never quite be intonated correctly. The really good ones got played to pieces. The collector's items were in large part, those which were almost unplayable, so they got stuck in the closet, and rarely left the case. We are so fortunate today, to be living in the age of computer directed CNC. The playability of Fender Squiers and Gibson Epiphones, after a professional setup, is almost mind boggling to someone of my age. And to have a guitar with the quality of an MIM Standard Strat or Tele, or the Squier Classic Vibe for such a low price is almost beyond belief. YMMV, of course.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

*Law* 

*Suit* 

*Guitar*


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

rhh7 said:


> I started hanging around Fender guitar shops in 1956. My hazy memory is of very inconsistent quality, with many new guitars which would not stay in tune, and could never quite be intonated correctly. The really good ones got played to pieces. The collector's items were in large part, those which were almost unplayable, so they got stuck in the closet, and rarely left the case. We are so fortunate today, to be living in the age of computer directed CNC. The playability of Fender Squiers and Gibson Epiphones, after a professional setup, is almost mind boggling to someone of my age. And to have a guitar with the quality of an MIM Standard Strat or Tele, or the Squier Classic Vibe for such a low price is almost beyond belief. YMMV, of course.



i totally agree that we are lucky these days. you can get some pretty nice guitars for the money when compared to what was available back in the days before cnc. it has totally changed the market, and the way products are branded.the squire affinity is a pretty good guitar for the money, and the cost is achievable by any teenager with the tiniest whiff of ambition. in fact, i also have th other half of that starter kit. a fender frontman reverb. a little 8" combo, that out of the box, isn't much. however - a guy on this forum modded mine for about $25, and if you heard it you wouldn't believe the sounds it makes now. he changed the vol pot for me so the opening was more linear. the stock one does nothing till you get to about the 9 oclock position, and if you barely even look at the knob after that, it's instantly already louder than i want it to be in this apt. he also changed out one or 2 caps and the sound improvement was amazing. i don't understand why fender wouldn't do these things in the first place. it now sounds just as good as the cube i had for a while, just not as many features. in fact, i'm using it right now, while i wait for vox to send a transformer to L&M for my lil nite train.
but i gotta be honest, i hate seeing the names paired together - fender squire or gibson epi. maybe it's just me? guitars posted on kijiji as fenders when they're squires make me sigh deeply.


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## J-75 (Jul 29, 2010)

Diablo said:


> ya, some things are "rare" for a reason....ie low appeal/demand.


+1 The original Gibby flying V's, thunderbirds, explorer's, reverse weirdo's, etc. were a flop, hence the low production #'s.
They were desperately trying to steal some of Fender's thunder by radical means in the late fifties.
They are deservedly rare because nobody bought them, but that changed to some extent in later years.

This thread has mentioned the comparable quality of some Japanese product with USA - absolutely agreed!
Remember those old, Japanese "Teisco" department store junk guitars under various "brand" names back in the sixties? Necks like baseball bats! Some people collect them-WTF?
This is an example of how quality can grow by extremes with time. It's likely to be happening in China, with influence by Fender, et al.


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## Option1 (May 26, 2012)

Steadfastly said:


> *Guitar*


Ummm, I'm actually worried that you think that a game controller is a guitar.

Neil


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Option1 said:


> Ummm, I'm actually worried that you think that a game controller is a guitar.
> 
> Neil


Wait, it's not?


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## jtienhaara (Dec 4, 2013)

Hopefully we can all agree that Japanese made game controllers from the 70s *are* worth collecting.


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## Wileyone (Jul 23, 2011)

I wonder why Ibanez never sued Gibson for blatantly copying their AM series with the 339.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

J-75 said:


> This thread has mentioned the comparable quality of some Japanese product with USA - absolutely agreed!
> Remember those old, Japanese "Teisco" department store junk guitars under various "brand" names back in the sixties? Necks like baseball bats! Some people collect them-WTF?
> This is an example of how quality can grow by extremes with time. It's likely to be happening in China, with influence by Fender, et al.


Yet by the late 70s and early 80s, Japanese instruments coming out of the Fuji-gen and Matsuomoku factories were very well crafted, cool guitars, with very playable necks and lots of tonal options - perhaps too much, one could argue. There was nothing extreme about their quality - it was just well-made, stand-up gear.

As for 60s Japanese stuff like Teisco, etc. - well, people collect all sorts of weird stuff. The beauty - and often the relative worth - is in the eye of the beholder. Can't say I like much of what I've seen from that era of "department store" guitars, but I suppose I'm glad _someone_ likes 'em.

I think you could also say that the so-called Lawsuit Guitar era - or more specifically, the best of the stuff coming out of Japan in the late 70s/early 80s - was the very thing which made Fender pull up its socks and start addressing their own manufacturing shoddiness. What goes around comes around. When one company starts to lose ground thanks to being on top for too long, there's always the competition waiting in the wings, looking to capitalize on that complacency. Pure business.


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