# Those cars with the automatic parallel parking feature......



## -=Sc0rch=- (Mar 28, 2010)

Would you trust it enough to take your hands off the wheel and let it do its thing, especially between two really expensive cars? 


oh hellz no.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

-=Sc0rch=- said:


> Would you trust it enough to take your hands off the wheel and let it do its thing, especially between two really expensive cars?
> 
> 
> oh hellz no.


Probably. I trust my adaptive cruise control.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Only after a number of successful parkings to make sure if works. As a rule I wouldn't use it. I don't want to get lazy with the driving skills.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> Only after a number of successful parkings to make sure if works. As a rule I wouldn't use it. I don't want to get _*lazy with the driving skills*_.


...or lose all basic driving skills altogether


I curse the development of the automated transmission for taking the fun out of driving.(throw in power steering and brakes, auto headlights, hydraulic brakes, radial tires....etc, etc)


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

Dont get me started on these gizmo's.


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## CocoTone (Jan 22, 2006)

That way thy don't have to stop texting to park.


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## -=Sc0rch=- (Mar 28, 2010)

So, if your let the car do the dirty work and your car clips off the front bumper of a ferrari, who's at fault? 

"Not me, wasn't me driving, my hands weren't even touching the wheel! I'm innocent I tell ya"

:sEm_oops:


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

I know a guy with this feature on a Ford. After nearly two years and a lot of initial distrust he's trusting it, and his only complaint is that the vehicle parks as badly as the worst of the people he's parking between. If one is two feet from the curb, so is he. But he likes it, and of course he's still in control of the gas and brake.

He also has adaptive speed control, warnings when he comes up behind someone too fast, warnings if someone is approaching an intersection too quickly when he's about to go through it, and other tools. Won't be too long before our kids get in their car, say "Go to Mom's house", and just sit there talking to the family and listening to music.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

i dont get this. parallel parking is hard now?
never used to be.
i guess i just dont know.
anyway, fukk you guys and your stupid cars:Smiley-fart:


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

No offense to our aging population, but im glad it exists. We have the 2015 consumer reports car guide now, and most of the gadgets are meant to improve safety. Some are just for the tech folk, of course. Some cars can tell when you are falling asleep and let you know. Thats pretty cool, and handy for long drives. We're not getting any younger, myself included.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

no different than watching young people try and make change or do math without a calculator. Before long, no one will know how to parallel park because they never learned to do it. 

what's the percentage of drivers on the road these days with actual good driving skills? 50%??? less?


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I see one ad on the TV (Nissan I think) that says let your car do the worrying, so you can concentrate on driving (auto braking, blind spot checks, etc.). Seems to me, if you were concentrating on driving, you wouldn't need all these gadgets. Of course, people today driving have the attention span of a gnat.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I dont see the problem, let people drive what they like. Some people love all the bells and whistles. Doesnt make them any lesser folk...............


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## dago (Feb 4, 2015)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I see one ad on the TV (Nissan I think) that says let your car do the worrying, so you can concentrate on driving (auto braking, blind spot checks, etc.). Seems to me, if you were concentrating on driving, you wouldn't need all these gadgets. Of course, people today driving have the attention span of a gnat.


Other problem is modern cars are getting harder and harder to see out of. Compare the window size and head height in you average early 90's car to now. Most have much smaller windows, much smaller rear windows and mirrors and a huge B-pillar right beside your head if your a tall driver.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

**** said:


> Other problem is modern cars are getting harder and harder to see out of. Compare the window size and head height in you average early 90's car to now. Most have much smaller windows, much smaller rear windows and mirrors and a huge B-pillar right beside your head if your a tall driver.


Yeah I find this with my new Honda CRV. Although the rear and side cameras do compensate for this. I'm having a helluva time getting used to looking down at the camera rather than turning around.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I learned how to parallel park when I should have (i.e., when I was a teen) and haven't had any trouble doing it since. Vans, pickups, compact cars, 4x4s, all do it the same way. My current truck, a Toyota Tacoma 4 door 4x4 short box has a camera in the rear view for backing up but it's useless without my reading glasses so I don't bother with it, besides, it's a dream to park.

I took me years to trust cruise control and still only use it on longer drives on dry pavement.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

boyscout said:


> I know a guy with this feature on a Ford. After nearly two years and a lot of initial distrust he's trusting it, and _*his only complaint is that the vehicle parks as badly as the worst of the people he's parking between. If one is two feet from the curb, so is he.*_


That would drive me nuts. When I park I want it done right whether it's parallel parking or making sure my car is in the middle of a parking space.

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Lincoln said:


> no different than watching young people try and make change or do math without a calculator. Before long, no one will know how to parallel park because they never learned to do it.
> 
> what's the percentage of drivers on the road these days with actual good driving skills? 50%??? less?


We were out today and a service crew had cones out to direct traffic around their service vehicle. The person ahead of me slowed to less than walking speed because they weren't sure of the spacing of their car. IMO, if you don't know that, you should not be driving.

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Accept2 said:


> I dont see the problem, let people drive what they like. Some people love all the bells and whistles. Doesn't make them any lesser folk...............


You're right, it doesn't. They are just less experienced in driving. All around good skills make for an all around better driver. That's not saying that all the bells and whistles are bad but when they start taking over driving skills, I don't see the good sense in that.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

hahahahahaha you guys are like grumpy old men! 










i hate all these new fangled gizmos! 
electronic parking! 
calculators! 
self tuning guitars!
'lectric scooters all over the place! 
back in my day we had to walk 2 miles to school in waist deep snow! and it was uphill both ways! movies cost a dime!


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Steadfastly said:


> We were out today and a service crew had cones out to direct traffic around their service vehicle. The person ahead of me slowed to less than walking speed because they weren't sure of the spacing of their car. IMO, if you don't know that, you should not be driving.


or like the wife/girlfriend driving their hubby's 1 ton, 4x4, dually pickup truck through a crowded parking lot for the first time. Now that's entertainment!!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

No. I'm one of those old guys who has no use for autonomous driving.

I hate automatic elements that take control out of the drivers hands and feet.

Intuitive cruise? No effing way. Traction control? Useless. I would turn ABS off if there was an easy way to do so.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Soon we'll have cars that tell on us when we do something wrong. The ticket will just spit out of the dash where the cd slot used to be...............


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

I parallel park all the time. I'm not going to rely on my car to do it for me. 

Rear view camera? I dont have one, but I think it is a fantastic idea. Mostly for being sure there's nobody behind you...couldn't imagine running over a kid. Worst nightmare ever

I don't care for most nav/info centres. Too busy, too distracting...I just want a stereo thank you.


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## DrHook (Oct 28, 2013)

The first time I saw one, a Nissan I believe..I was on a break at work and saw this new car come down the street. It slowed down and then stopped. The sunroof slid open and the drivers arms shot straight up through the sunroof as the car began to position itself and I was like *WTF?* ...and then it dawned on me that it was a new self parking car and the salesman was taking a potential customer for a test drive. I was impressed...but I still like to mangle my parallel parking by myself :smile-new:


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

It's a progression from backup sensors. 

If if they put backup proximity sensors around the car, the car can park itself after the software is programmed. 

Mind you only vehicles with electric steering assist can do this function. Hydraulic steering can't be automated.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> No. I'm one of those old guys who has no use for autonomous driving.
> 
> I hate automatic elements that take control out of the drivers hands and feet.
> 
> Intuitive cruise? No effing way. Traction control? Useless. _*I would turn ABS off if there was an easy way to do so*_.


I've posted this before with videos to prove it's true but ABS can kill you on slippery roads. It simply will not stop the vehicle as quickly as a good driver can on their own ability. I usually disable it in the winter time by pulling the fuse. You can also do it by pulling a wire off any of the wheel sensors. It's not hard to do. However, on dry roads, I feel there is some benefit as it will let you steer and stop.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> I've posted this before with videos to prove it's true but ABS can kill you on slippery roads. It simply will not stop the vehicle as quickly as a good driver can on their own ability. I usually disable it in the winter time by pulling the fuse. You can also do it by pulling a wire off any of the wheel sensors. It's not hard to do. However, on dry roads, I feel there is some benefit as it will let you steer and stop.


thats something that always blowed me away.
those sensors are little plastic housings
down at the most vulnerable area of a car.
of course they are going to fail.
and they always do.
no big deal usually, but its a $500 part for some cars.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

When my brother-in-law worked on industrial robots, he emphasized to me that such robots worked phenomenally well...provided they were dealing with a predetermined, fully-anticipated set of circumstances. So, if you gave a robotic arm a tray with a matrix of parts, all oriented the exact same way, it was a simple matter to program the system to simply take the next part in line and install it into an appliance or other device on a production line that would have the appliance/device in a standardized fully-anticipated location.

You could NOT simply hand the robotic system a barrel full of parts at any of 1000 different orientations, and expect the system to recognize what was a part and what a mere reflection or shadow, how to optimally pick it up and re-orient it for insertion into the appliance. To put it in our terms, it could read sheet music very well, but it couldn't improvise.

And therein lies the problem and challenge. I have full confidence for such "intelligent" systems to pull off a flawless parallel park...under a set of standardized circumstances (minivan in front, Honda Civic in back). The question is what it would do when the circumstances wander a little off-standard, and maybe the vehicles in front and back are a little weirdly shaped and weirdly parked. What if the car in front has a long trailer hitch sticking out, or a bike attached to the back?

The answer is, of course, simply switch to manual unassisted parking. But, as an earlier post rightly notes, it takes practice to maintain such skills, and much like relying on a calculator so long that you forget how to do long division, one wonders about how well such parking skills would be maintained.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> I've posted this before with videos to prove it's true but ABS can kill you on slippery roads. It simply will not stop the vehicle as quickly as a good driver can on their own ability. I usually disable it in the winter time by pulling the fuse. You can also do it by pulling a wire off any of the wheel sensors. It's not hard to do. However, on dry roads, I feel there is some benefit as it will let you steer and stop.



I wonder how insurance would be impacted if there was an accident and it was determined the driver pulled a fuse to a safety feature.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> I wonder how insurance would be impacted if there was an accident and it was determined the driver pulled a fuse to a safety feature.


Since the car is disabled anyway, there would be a very slim chance it would even be noticed. Personally, I am much more concerned with the safety while driving with my wife, friends and family than any post accident claims.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

A misconception of ABS is, supposedly to give shorter emergency stopping distance. In reality, ABS only gives directional stability or the ability to change direction during an emergency stop assuming there is some traction available to the tires and that the tires are suitable to take advantage of any traction.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ABS is fine for people who drive because they have to and really don't want to pay attention.

So are lane departure warnings and intuitive cruise control.

People seem to want less and less personal responsibility. I don't have to worry about tailgating that tractor trailer anymore because my car's system will warn me before I rear end it?

F$#k that skippy. At least with the Nissan system you can turn some of that off.

I can feather my brakes. Feeling that terrible shudder that ABS makes and waiting for the car to give braking control back to me is very frustrating.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Milkman said:


> ABS is fine for people who drive because they have to and really don't want to pay attention.
> 
> So are lane departure warnings and intuitive cruise control.
> 
> ...


Sorry milkman it was an accident


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> Sorry milkman it was an accident



No problem. I've done the same by accident.

Thanks for letting me know.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I'm blown away that some guys are thinking it's better to disable of not have a safety feature on a vehicle because they think they can do it better themselves.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

vadsy said:


> I'm blown away that some guys are thinking it's better to disable of not have a safety feature on a vehicle because they think they can do it better themselves.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Depends on the feature. I hate ABS brakes and find the juttering to be very distracting - enough that I imagine some people may actually take their foot off and make things worse. For me, if I want to stop then I want to stop - period. It's not a request - it's an order. I have no interest in maintaining a bit of steering control as I go off the cliff - I want that car slewed sideways in a cloud of dust as I stop with one wheel over the brink.

And don't get me started on backup cameras. My wife's car has one. The problem is that in the sunlight it's hard to see the screen and more and more my wife is depending on the camera and less on looking around herself. Chances are if there is a child nearby he/she is not waiting still behind the car where the camera can see - but is running/riding from the side.

Having said all of that, I am all for advances. I am glad to not have to control engine air/fuel mixtures from my steering wheel.........


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

So who is going to disable their seatbelts? Arent they for sucky drivers who dont know how to drive?.................


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Accept2 said:


> So who is going to disable their seatbelts? Arent they for sucky drivers who dont know how to drive?.................


I cut them out and make guitar straps.

We don't need no stinking seat belts!


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## Guest (Mar 31, 2015)

learn how to do this ..

[video=youtube;rssrYy5ax8w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rssrYy5ax8w[/video]


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I disable traction control in the Cross tour. Why? Because it's absolutely counterproductive and can even be considered dangerous.

I was climbing an icy hill with it turned on (default). About three quarters of the way up I felt the vehicle slow down and then almost stop. It was creeping veerrrrrry slowly up the hill while traffic backed up behind me.

No action with the gas pedal would counteract this. Only when I had the idea to disable the traction control did the gas pedal start responding normally again. Yes, I spun the tires a wee bit but quickly made the crest of the hill.

So, if you're a complete numbnuts and will sit there and floor it when you have poor traction, traction control is the bees knees for you.

If you're that same numbnuts and lock the brakes up when you're trying to stop in slick conditions, again, ABS is a feature you may well enjoy.

So, _that _​is why someone would disable a "safety" feature.


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

...and that moronic Toyota Corolla commercial showing the young man doing reverse circles while watching the backup camera screen...


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> If you're that same numbnuts and lock the brakes up when you're trying to stop in slick conditions, again, ABS is a feature you may well enjoy.


You'd be a bigger numbnuts if you sat there pumping your brakes with ABS. I have one car with and one without. My 07 Monte Carlo does not have ABS, my brand new CRV does. I must be a really good driver cause I have no issues with either.
That being said, I over ride the lane warning feature. Was a pain when it kept going off even when I was aligned perfectly in the lane. Honda mechanic said it was salt on the road screwing it up. Out with the mechanic we tested it by driving over the lines. Sometimes it would go off and sometimes it wouldn't. Other times it would go off even when we weren't near the lines. I like adaptive cruise control sometimes when the traffic is heavier. If I had parallel park assist, I'd use it if it worked to my satisfaction. I'm 54 years old and have parallel parked my whole life so I know how to do it. If a car has an automatic function and parked to my satisfaction, yeah I'd use it.
If I took the attitude some of you have towards technology I guess I'd still be using a typewriter instead of a new fangled word processor and getting up to change my channels.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

The problem with ABS is that once it kicks in you have no control and so feathering your brakes is of no avail.

Technology that relieves me of the responsibility of driving is not a safety feature. It's a convenience that I do not want.

As for technology, I guess if I took the same attitude toward technology with music as most guitarists I'd still be playing a Tele through a tube amp.

Hey, wait, that's not so bad _is _​it?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> I can feather my brakes. Feeling that terrible shudder that ABS makes and _*waiting for the car to give braking control back to me is very frustrating.*_


And sometimes downright scary.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> The problem with ABS is that once it kicks in you have no control and so feathering your brakes is of no avail.
> 
> Technology that relieves me of the responsibility of driving is not a safety feature. It's a convenience that I do not want.
> 
> ...


There's a lot of bad press on ABS saying that its dangerous but if that were true I don't know why they still use it. Myself, I don't really like it. However, I'm not going to over ride something to do with brake design. Depending on the car, pulling the fuse can also disable something else.
I'll drive my cars the way they were designed. If there is a feature switch that allows me to over ride something I'll assume its safe to do so.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

I heard a guy talking on CBC a while back about safety innovations on cars. His research indicated that most new safety "features" improve safety for about a year after their widespread introduction. After that, people compensate by driving more aggressively/less attentively and we end up right back where we started.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I suspect that would be true of anything that modifies perception of risk. I remembering hearing about a study on _As It Happens,_ some years back, in which otherwise matched groups of university athletes were provided with the same running shoes by the researchers (a bunch of kinesiology folks). Half the athletes were told that the shoes were some sort of high-end "latest development-in-safety-features" model, and the other half were not given any sort of cock-and-bull story. Same shoes, just different assumptions accompanying their use by the participants. I forget what the ruse was that accompanied the study, but the participants were unaware that injury and risk would be examined. After some period of time (I forget how many months), the researchers followed up with participants and found that those who were under the impression that the shoes were safety-enhanced tended to take more risks, and have more sports injuries.

It's a good thing that condom manufacturers do not (and probably aren't allowed to) present ad copy that touts the relative safety of their product ("Safest safe money can buy!") or else our birth and chlamydia rates would be much higher.

Like I say, perception of risk is a powerful thing.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

you guys who think you can out-brake abs are wrong. someday, maybe dead wrong. you should do yourselves a favor and do some research. there are motorcycles with linked/abs. i can see disabling it on a bike, because it makes such a huge difference which brake you use and when. but in a car? no way will you ever in your life out perform the abs, as long as it is functioning properly. imagine you are driving over a bridge. you get to the top and discover that someone decided to park just over the crest, in the left hand lane, and have a beer or 12. this actually happened to my mom. by the time you realize the other car isn't moving, you cant get out of the way. you lock them brakes up and your car will hit the one in front of you with far more force than it otherwise would with abs. i don't care if you're richard petty. no one can out-brake abs. turning it off is irresponsible, and puts yourself and others at risk. you may not like it, but that's a fact. i urge you folks not to take my word for it, but instead do the research for yourself. your life and those around you may depend on it.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> There's a lot of bad press on ABS saying that its dangerous but if that were true I don't know why they still use it. Myself, I don't really like it. However, I'm not going to over ride something to do with brake design. Depending on the car, pulling the fuse can also disable something else.
> I'll drive my cars the way they were designed. If there is a feature switch that allows me to over ride something I'll assume its safe to do so.


ABS is a safety feature when you factor in the reality of the lowest common denominator.

Take a look around you at Service Ontario sometime and make an admittedly face value assessment of how bright and aware the average person there is.

Now you can understand why they had to take control away.

Therein lies the problem and the reason I like switches for such things. I love seatbelts and airbags. I hate ABS, traction assist/control and intuitive cruise.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

It's not ABS that poses risk; ABS is certainly there for a good reason. Rather, it is folks who think that ABS, and maybe the extra $30 they spent on each tire, will support driving a little faster and recklessly. That is, ABS_ increases _risk when people think it reduces risk *more* than it actually does/can.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I sure hope all these great features and more arrive soon because driving sure gets in the way of my texting........................:smile-new:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

That's where we're heading with autonomous cars.

Want to know what killed standard trannies?

The advent and proliferation of cell phones.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Personally, I get a little nervous letting a computer take control of any aspect of my life. I use them extensively but I don't trust them to do things for me that I can readily do or learn to do for myself.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

allthumbs56 said:


> Soon we'll have cars that tell on us when we do something wrong. The ticket will just spit out of the dash where the cd slot used to be...............


That's the wife's job......I don't get a ticket, I get ''the look''.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

ed2000 said:


> ...and that moronic Toyota Corolla commercial showing the young man doing reverse circles while watching the backup camera screen...


Haha, I do it everyday. It's fun as hell...

edit: I don't care about cars that can parallel park.

I just wish they'd make one that'll massage my lumbar area. 

I also wish the British lady who tells me where to go would also tell my wife to stop panicking while I drive. It's pretty irritating.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

I hated ABS first, but it's gotten me out of a few hairy close calls. Recently I had some clown in a civic turn left at the last second. It would have been a T bone had I not been able to turn a hard left, followed by an equally hard right to get out of it. It was an awesome pirouette. I would have written off that little pi** can and more than likely injuries for the occupants. 

Trac control however, I cannot stand. I want ALL the road feel in my hands and foot. I don't think trac control has added up to anything on either of our vehicles. Glad to see the invent of manual capabilities of automatic transmissions lately. Not quite as good as manual (huh??? what is that???) but better than D,3,2,1.

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adcandour said:


> I also wish the British lady who tells me where to go would also tell my wife to stop panicking while I drive. It's pretty irritating.


Nav? Iphone (Siri)?


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Scotty said:


> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> Nav? Iphone (Siri)?


Nav. Can't live without her.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

bluzfish said:


> Personally, I get a little nervous letting a computer take control of any aspect of my life. I use them extensively but I don't trust them to do things for me that I can readily do or learn to do for myself.


Sailing for the cliff edge while the system reboots?


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

ABS on a bike.....tried one, it's dangerous on a bike. That being said, until I bought the '98 F150 about 7 years ago non of the vehicles I've owned have had ABS and only 3 of the vehicles I've owned have been automatic. The 1951 DeSoto, the '67 Parisienne and the F150. The F150 and the 2003 Dodge Ram 1500 2wd are the only two that have cruise control.....I don't know if either work, never used them. No power anything on either truck. When I stop a vehicle my foot (and hand if on a bike) does what it needs to do.....it pumps the pedal as needed. Can I pump better and faster than ABS? Don't know and don't care. On the Dodge I use both the brakes and tranny to slow down....5 spd standard. As far as parallel parking goes, I put the truck in reverse and go from there using my mirrors and looking over my shoulder the way I've been doing it for more than 50 years. One of the things the wife didn't like on the Terrain was the rear view camera.....put it in reverse and you lost half the mirror. The Charger doesn't have back up camera as far as I know but has all the other bells and whistles. Hell, you could probably be going down the road, click it into cruise control, tap something on the touch screen and the car would give you a hummer then serve you coffee. But, I don't know, it's the wife's car and I don't drive it. And nav systems can go in the garbage for all I care. When we got the Charger we tried it while sitting in the driveway. It had the address right just had us sitting about a mile away on the map, in a swamp. From what I've heard about the auto parallel parking system, try not to use it around bikes.


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2015)

allthumbs56 said:


> Sailing for the cliff edge while the system reboots?


[video=youtube;Tm_mxK6Yfv0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm_mxK6Yfv0[/video]


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I love traction control. Try driving cars with massive torque without it..............


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Massive torque?

I turn it off on my car. I wouldn't call it massive but HP is around 340 and it's a small car.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> I love traction control. Try driving cars with massive torque without it..............


All it does is apply the brakes to the spinning wheel, which is why cars lose power as you step on the gas. Your big, powerful car is both trying to go and stop at the same time.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> All it does is apply the brakes to the spinning wheel, which is why cars lose power as you step on the gas. Your big, powerful car is both trying to go and stop at the same time.


Actually no. Traction control is different from ESP and ABS. It limits the power going to the wheel. It makes it possible to get off the line without spinning when you have massive torque...........


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Accept2 said:


> Actually no. Traction control is different from ESP and ABS. It limits the power going to the wheel. It makes it possible to get off the line without spinning when you have massive torque...........


Get off the line without spinning the wheels. There is something wrong with that. That's like having the Ventures playing on the stereo and not cranking the volume.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> Get off the line without spinning the wheels. There is something wrong with that. That's like having the Ventures playing on the stereo and not cranking the volume.


Some want performance, others want a show...........


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Actually no. Traction control is different from ESP and ABS. It limits the power going to the wheel. It makes it possible to get off the line without spinning when you have massive torque...........


Yes - by apply the brake to the spinning wheel. Power follows the path of least resistance - which now becomes the "unbraked" wheel. When that one spins, the system reverses the dance. It does a juggling act that works well to get you out of the mud. More sophisticated systems retard the engine ignition as well.

None of these things add up to performance off the line.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> Yes - by apply the brake to the spinning wheel. Power follows the path of least resistance - which now becomes the "unbraked" wheel. When that one spins, the system reverses the dance. It does a juggling act that works well to get you out of the mud. More sophisticated systems retard the engine ignition as well.
> 
> None of these things add up to performance off the line.


Nonsensical post..........


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

On early systems traction control only applied the rear brakes to control tire spin. The engine computer and the brake computer were separate beasts Since then however, with everything being "drive by wire" (no mechanical link between the throttle pedal and the engine) they've gotten more into it. These days the computer operates everything and also takes away the throttle to control tire spin. That's the one I don't like. When I want to go, I want to go. Spin or no spin.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Lincoln said:


> On early systems traction control only applied the rear brakes to control tire spin. The engine computer and the brake computer were separate beasts Since then however, with everything being "drive by wire" (no mechanical link between the throttle pedal and the engine) they've gotten more into it. These days the computer operates everything and also takes away the throttle to control tire spin. That's the one I don't like. When I want to go, I want to go. Spin or no spin.


You are a little closer to how it actually works.........


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Accept2 said:


> You are a little closer to how it actually works.........


to get any closer we'd have to start talking actual vehicle make, model & year. :smile-new:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Some want performance, others want a show...........


Some need a computer to tell them their wheels are spinning.

Some can feel it and know how to react,


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Nonsensical post..........


Yet I speak the truth ..................... but don't take my word for it:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/28000-traction-control-explained.htm

My wife's AWD Nissan, which is loaded with slew and yaw sensors is claimed by the manufacturer to be able to distribute torque to any of the 4 wheels depending on driving conditions. A very smart computer indeed but it still does it by braking the appropriate wheel, and differential clutches (which also apply friction to distribute torque). The one thing I do like about it is that high-speed cornering is actually enhanced by applying a brake pulse to the "pivot" wheel.

Personally, I'd much rather drive my old "B" ...................... points, carbs, clutch, choke and all.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Its great that this forum is filled with F1 drivers and auto engineers. In any circuit, logic rules. If it didnt, there is chaos. Its the absolute fundamental basis for integrated circuit design. In auto safety systems, the overlord (ESP) tells the ABS and TC what to do. TC never has control of the breaks, and ABS never has control of the power. If they did, which is more right with the 1 or 0? Is it OR, AND, XOR, etc? Absolute fucking chaos. Main point: In an integrated system disabling any part of the system compromises the entire system, and puts peoples lives at risk. If you do this, you should be consulting a lawyer and have a retainer on hand, because if you get into an accident, the car has most likely recorded that event. Insurance companies may be evil, but they aint stoopid. If ABS, TC, or ESP are always interfering with your driving, maybe you dont drive as well as you think. They are only activated when the car thinks you are about to lose control. Car safety systems dont cause accidents, its the driver...........


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

That's why I don't unplug fuses or pull wires. If theres a switch to turn off automatic features I generally do so.

No I'm neither an F1 driver or an engineer, but I AM a person who loves driving and not someone for whom the cheapest and most environmentally friendly mode of transportation is the first priority.

I may have a slightly different perspective than someone who drives an electric or hybrid car.

Prius drivers have different standards than Porsche drivers.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Milkman said:


> That's why I don't unplug fuses or pull wires. If theres a switch to turn off automatic features I generally do so.
> 
> No I'm neither an F1 driver or an engineer, but I AM a person who loves driving and not someone for whom the cheapest and most environmentally friendly mode of transportation is the first priority.
> 
> ...


Ive owned 2 Porsches, and now have an electric car. Yup, electric car drivers all love torque. We love driving and we love technology. My last car was an S8, it had insane HP and torque, way more than what anyone could possible use. I prefer my electric Smart car to the S8, and the Porsches and any other car I had in the past. Its wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more fun. The gas version Smart sucks though...........


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Its great that this forum is filled with F1 drivers and auto engineers.


Let's not forget the know-it-alls - we got our share of those too .............. :smile-new:


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

Traction control: uses wheel speed sensor input to see which wheel is over spinning. 
Then ABS module then applies brakes if nessesary, or the TRANSMISSION CONTROL MODULE relieves pressure to limit power to the nessesary wheel. 

Does 2 things.

1) helps prevent fish tailing on wet surfaces. 
2) helps traction from dead stop. 

All of these automated systems have become desired or mandatory because of poor driving skills in drivers. 

Mandetory skill testing and sign recognition would go a long way to make a lot of problems go away. 

Like which lane to drive in


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Ive owned 2 Porsches, and now have an electric car. Yup, electric car drivers all love torque. We love driving and we love technology. My last car was an S8, it had insane HP and torque, way more than what anyone could possible use. I prefer my electric Smart car to the S8, and the Porsches and any other car I had in the past. Its wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more fun. The gas version Smart sucks though...........



Well, if you had two Porsches and prefer a Smart car to either of them, we're on more than different pages. We're on different planets.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

allthumbs56 said:


> Let's not forget the know-it-alls - we got our share of those too .............. :smile-new:


well that's not me. I'm licenced automotive & HD mechanic, been in the trade for 39 years......but I know nothing about ABS, traction control, on-board computer systems, or how new vehicles work. :smile-new:


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Well, if you had two Porsches and prefer a Smart car to either of them, we're on more than different pages. We're on different planets.


Correct. To me driving a car that is faster than all others is pointless. There is no challenge. I like a challenge. I also love full torque at 0rpm. I also love having little weight and turning on a dime. And I absolutely love having the extremely low center of gravity and rigidity provided by an electric car. I also love being able to drive a car at its limits without breaking the law. When you have 600hp, its boring in Canada. Now the Autobahn is another story, thats where my choice would be different........

- - - Updated - - -



djmarcelca said:


> All of these automated systems have become desired or mandatory because of poor driving skills in drivers.


Also physics. Cars have gotten heavier, and more powerful...........


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Correct. To me driving a car that is faster than all others is pointless. There is no challenge. I like a challenge.
> - - - Updated - - -



We in the middle of a pissing contest? There's enough challenge on the road as it is. I want as little challenge from a car as possible. I want to get from point A to point B with as little challenge as possible.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Now that I see how radically different of perspectives we have to driving, it's not a pissing contest.

It's apples and oranges.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Its not a pissing contest, its a James Mayism. I like James May................

If you dont like a challenge, never, ever attempt to get from point A to B on a bicycle. Those are the most challenging vehicles around, and they are a fucking blast. Even if Hammond drives one..............


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## Guest (Apr 1, 2015)

If I went electric ....










[video=youtube;LpaLgF1uLB8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpaLgF1uLB8[/video]


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

Accept2 said:


> Also physics. Cars have gotten heavier, and more powerful...........




Only 1/2 correct. Heavier: not a snowballs chance in hell. Much much lighter actually.

more powerful: yes. There is the smaller engine size that limits much. 

Ex: Chev 3.8l supercharged from the factory is about 275hp. To get that out of a vehicle from the 50,60,70's you need a small block v8 of at least 330ci.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

To summarise:

Your daily should have functional safety gadgets. Be wary of other drivers.

Keep second "fun" car for track days
Or third, or whatever your +1 is.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

djmarcelca said:


> Only 1/2 correct. Heavier: not a snowballs chance in hell. Much much lighter actually.
> 
> more powerful: yes. There is the smaller engine size that limits much.
> 
> Ex: Chev 3.8l supercharged from the factory is about 275hp. To get that out of a vehicle from the 50,60,70's you need a small block v8 of at least 330ci.


Very true. I'm continuously reminded of how important weight reduction is to auto makers. As a supplier we actually receive credit for any weight reduction we offer in the parts we produce, in much the same way as we do when we reduce cost.

And yes, the all important power to weight ratio has been shattered year after year.

In the late 80's I recall the mighty Five- Oh GT being Rated at 225 hp.

Your grandmother's current Camry or Altima have more than that (if they're in a V6).

My car's engne is a 3.7L V6 rated at 328 hp from the factory. Someone installed rather expensive looking cold air intakes on this one and the gear heads I've shown it to estimate that brings it to around 340 hp.

I'm actually upgrading the tires (as soon as they come in) to try to hook up a little better. It's light, small, low and fast.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

djmarcelca said:


> Only 1/2 correct. Heavier: not a snowballs chance in hell. Much much lighter actually.


http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/12/20131213-trends.html


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Accept2 said:


> Some want performance, others want a show...........


Depends I guess on your definition of performance.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Accept2 said:


> Ive owned 2 Porsches, and now have an electric car. Yup, electric car drivers all love torque. We love driving and we love technology. My last car was an S8, it had insane HP and torque, way more than what anyone could possible use. I prefer my electric Smart car to the S8, and the Porsches and any other car I had in the past. Its wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy more fun. The gas version Smart sucks though...........


Just out of curiosity, how far can you go on a charge, at what speed and how long does it take to fully recharge your car? By that I mean get in the car, drive at hiway speeds until something tells you it's time to recharge, recharge and start driving again.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

About 180 total, as the battery is actually very small. The speed limit. Never timed it, it gets done over night at 110V. But for those who need speed, it takes less than 30 minutes to charge with DC Fast. And every year that passes that time seems to drop by half........

http://www.blinknetwork.com/chargers-commercial-dc-fast.html


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> About 180 total, as the battery is actually very small. The speed limit. Never timed it, it gets done over night at 110V. But for those who need speed, it takes less than 30 minutes to charge with DC Fast. And every year that passes that time seems to drop by half........
> 
> http://www.blinknetwork.com/chargers-commercial-dc-fast.html


So, less than two hours of highway driving between charges? How does using the headlights affect power consumption?


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Accept2 said:


> About 180 total, as the battery is actually very small. The speed limit. Never timed it, it gets done over night at 110V. But for those who need speed, it takes less than 30 minutes to charge with DC Fast. And every year that passes that time seems to drop by half........
> 
> http://www.blinknetwork.com/chargers-commercial-dc-fast.html


So a nice little, limited, city car.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> So a nice little, limited, city car.


Have they ever advertised it as anything else? Do motorcycle companies advertise how well they drive in snow? If you want highway miles buy a Tesla. They dont limit their ranges in order to sell gas versions instead. It is the technology which will eventually take over. I have never met an EV driver who would ever switch back. Alot of hybrid drivers would, but thats another story. Technology is awesome, ESP/TC/ABS is awesome. Electric cars are awesome. With Smart it made a boring car into a fun one.........

[video=youtube;C9sfKHa_yNg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9sfKHa_yNg[/video]
[video=youtube;Ekk-RQvWz8I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekk-RQvWz8I[/video]


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I used to hear the same logic from VW bug owners. (fastest car on the road for the first 100 feet or so).

Sorry, but putt putts like the Smart are not likely to ever appeal to those who really love driving.

Tesla, yes.

The Nissan Leaf is another E car that's a nice little city commuter, but practically useless for anyone who needs to go farther than an hour away from a charger.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Sorry, but putt putts like the Smart are not likely to ever appeal to those who really love driving.


I honestly dont understand that comment. But then again I have owned alot of very fast cars and driven them hard, so fast isnt what appeals to me. I think its why the Autobahn is so controlled, no one really cares that youre pushing 300kph. I would have fun in a little MG or Miata or any of the 1960s Alfas. I guess I must not love driving. But then again my favorite is a go cart, and the closest car on the road to one is the Smart ED. As for the Leaf, tried it, it was nice and all, but too many computer screens, and front wheel drive, but the worst was the weight..............


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> I honestly dont understand that comment. But then again I have owned alot of very fast cars and driven them hard, so fast isnt what appeals to me. I think its why the Autobahn is so controlled, no one really cares that youre pushing 300kph. I would have fun in a little MG or Miata or any of the 1960s Alfas. I guess I must not love driving. But then again my favorite is a go cart, and the closest car on the road to one is the Smart ED. As for the Leaf, tried it, it was nice and all, but too many computer screens, and front wheel drive, but the worst was the weight..............



I'm talking Gs here. Yes you can feel some quick thrust for the first few meters, but for real driving pleasure I'm carving corners and yes, occasionally breaking the speed limits. That doesn't mean driving ike a maniac.

I've driven a Smart, a Leaf and a few of the gas powered sub compacts. They all felt like they would flip over if I drove anywhere near the way I drive a normal car.

With that wheel base, center of gravity, lack of hydraulic power steering and no top end, it's just not what I call pleasure driving.

It's point A to point B and those points had better be close together.

Tesla on the other hand, has me all figured out (except my disposable income).

I like electric. I don't like the limitations and for almost $28,000. I just think Smart has a long way to go.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Milkman said:


> I used to hear the same logic from VW bug owners. (fastest car on the road for the first 100 feet or so).
> 
> Sorry, but putt putts like the Smart are not likely to ever appeal to those who really love driving.
> 
> ...


My first car was a 61' Mini. When the original 850cc engine died we put in a drivetrain from an Austin 1100 - 1098cc + geared for 12" wheels. With the little stock 10" wheels on the Mini the thing would absolutely light things up to a max speed of about 50 mph. Add in the handling and it was a riotous car for a 16 year old.

Many years and owners later she went on to work the vintage race circuit and is still alive today:








How cool is that?


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## Taylor (Oct 31, 2014)

I don't think I'd be inherently distrusting of the parallel parking feature, but I know it'd never get used by me. If you're stuck between 2 people who suck at curb parking, it'll stick you as far out into the flow of traffic as they are, and I'm not cool with that, though I KNOW my girlfriend would be.

So: Trust? Maybe. Use? Not while I'm still young and sharp. 

Mind you, the only reason I got an SUV with an automatic transmission was because I wanted a hybrid, and while I long for the stick-shift of my last car, I don't miss burning through a tank of gas in 5 days.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

allthumbs56 said:


> So, less than two hours of highway driving between charges? How does using the headlights affect power consumption?


or a/c, heat etc?

For me, the magic number range Id need to consider is about 800kms, preferably 1000. I don't want to have to rent a car to drive to Ottawa or Montreal. And although those drives aren't that far, I know they'll tend to inflate the real world ratings anyways, or not count operating typical electrical accessories.
I also would want to allow for the odd time I forget to charge the battery overnight, or forget to. when I go to the cottage for instance, im looking at 500kms minimum, assuming I don't do any travelling once there, and I couldn't count on having a place to charge it while there.

I don't think the technology is where I need it to be, personally.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Diablo said:


> or a/c, heat etc?
> 
> For me, the magic number range Id need to consider is about 800kms, preferably 1000. I don't want to have to rent a car to drive to Ottawa or Montreal. And although those drives aren't that far, I know they'll tend to inflate the real world ratings anyways, or not count operating typical electrical accessories.
> I also would want to allow for the odd time I forget to charge the battery overnight, or forget to. when I go to the cottage for instance, im looking at 500kms minimum, assuming I don't do any travelling once there, and I couldn't count on having a place to charge it while there.
> ...


It's all about battery technology. When that evolves a bit more E-cars at the level of a Tesla may become more attainable for the average person.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

not only is battery technology a bit behind demand.......I don't think the power grid is ready for the masses to come home from work, plug in the chargers on their electric cars, and then start cooking supper.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Lincoln said:


> not only is battery technology a bit behind demand.......I don't think the power grid is ready for the masses to come home from work, plug in the chargers on their electric cars, and then start cooking supper.


exactly. I could probably give a little in the range department if charging was as convenient as getting gas is currently.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

The power grid creates energy all night and that energy is wasted. Hydro and nuclear are always on whether someone wants the power or not. By 2020, that could change however when fusion starts to show up. 

If you use Fast DC, it takes 30 minutes in todays technology. I think you would have to have some extreme assumptions for it to overload the grid.

The next gen batteries are going into cars in the next couple of years. Last I checked the range was well in excess of Tesla, as VW's new batteries suppoedly have 600 miles of range.

The actual versus the advertised in electric cars is actually better. For some reason they advertise charging times, performance figures, battery range with very pessimistic estimates. 

Not sure how charging at home is less convenient than going to a gas station and have them rape your wallet.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Accept2 said:


> Not sure how charging at home is less convenient than going to a gas station and have them rape your wallet.


its more the concern of not always being at home. if my guzzler shows im near empty on the 401 outside of Belleville, I can find a place within 40kms or so to fill up. I don't have that same option with electric today. life happens. if all you do is drive 100kms on either side of home every day, an electric car is fine. but some lifestyles/occupations aren't this clockwork.
Noone likes having their wallet raped.
but for now, its really still the best solution.
My hydro company is pretty good at raping me too. if demand goes up, new infrastructure is needed etc, the raping will continue.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

The cost is still not even close though. For my car I am getting a realistic 1 cent per km of travel. All of my neighbors were naysayers until they saw my hydro bill. Wasnt what they expected..............


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

That's step one and probably the most important step toward acceptance by the masses.


But, before you're going to get through to old crusty F^$kers like me, there has to be performance and not just zero to 20. I want top end and I want handling.

Cheap is not nearly as important as fun.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> That's step one and probably the most important step toward acceptance by the masses.
> 
> 
> But, before you're going to get through to old crusty F^$kers like me, there has to be performance and not just zero to 20. I want top end and I want handling.
> ...


exactly...and reliable/maintainable. Doesn't do me any good if there isn't anyone that can service the things.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

An electric motor is bullet proof. There is only 1 moving part. The Lithium batteries in the current generation also seem bullet proof with only Nissan reporting problems in the Arizona region on the original Leaf. I believe it didnt cool. These batteries have been around for about a decade, still showing very little range loss. My plan is to eventually use the current battery in a home solar system when the solid state lithium ones come around. With the paddle shifters controlling the magnetic fields, I barely use my breaks so that they should last along time. Really not much maintenance, especially compared to something with 10,000 parts working in unison.............


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

In the long run, electric cars are going to need much less maintenance. Very few moving parts in an electric drivetrain compared to a thermal engine drivetrain. It's the controllers and batteries that are going through teething pains, but that too shall pass eventually.



Accept2 said:


> The power grid creates energy all night and that energy is wasted. Hydro and nuclear are always on whether someone wants the power or not. By 2020, that could change however when fusion starts to show up.


True about nuclear but not hydro. Any thermal generation (nuclear, coal, natural gas) takes along time to throttle up / throttle down. Not worth trying overnight when you have to run up the next morning. You can throttle down hydro as easily as closing wicker gates. Immediate. And back up again just as quickly. Hydro provinces make money with this, as they over-generate during the day and sell while prices are higher, and then save water at night, buying off the grid at 1/10th the daytime price. 

I don't think there's any doubt electric cars are the way of the future. But I'm pretty sure an M3 can get better gas mileage than a Prius, in certain conditions (see Top Gear about 5 years ago).


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Prius isnt an EV, its a scam mobile. Actually I can see why some people might like them. To me they are simply meh. NiMH batteries are interesting, but not for cars.........


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

a cars engine does NOT have 10,000 parts. not even if you count all the screws. you can recycle everything in a car into other things. from what i've read, producing and disposing of electric cars is really environmentally unfriendy


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

I'm just glad that an electric car, truck or motorcycle will never be in my future.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

cheezyridr said:


> a cars engine does NOT have 10,000 parts. not even if you count all the screws. you can recycle everything in a car into other things. from what i've read, producing and disposing of electric cars is really environmentally unfriendy


Tires: Difficult to recycle. The steel and polyester reinforcement have to be separated from the rubber - my melting the rubber, (What a smell)
Steel/cast iron, Melt and re-use. Great stuff 
Copper: Melt and re-use
Aluminum: Melt and re-use

Plastics: Must be shredded to pellets and then melted, but cannot be retinted changed when melted. Very difficult to re-use
Foam: Not recycled
Seat covers leather: Not recycled, bio-degradable
Seat covers cloth: Not recycled, Not made of cloth, made of industrial grade polyester fabric. (plastic)


Lubricants: Used Lubricants can be used 2 ways. 
1) Recycled and re-distilled and mixed into new crude to produce recycled oil. CanTire sold a bunch for a couple of years until Customers found out it was recycled and stopped buying it. (think it was called auto-tech) or something similar.

2) Burned in Used Oil furnaces to heat buildings, power genset's and do anything else that fuel oil power can do. 
I cannot Figure out why Ontario fell for the used Oil re-refinery publicity campaign and outlawed Used Oil Furnaces. (It was done in the name of the enviroment) But anyone who serviced/uses them know they produce no more Co2 than a Natural Gas furnace. 

But the Oil fuel is "Dirty"

Coolant: The old fashioned Ethylene Glycol (Ye Olde Green Coolant) Could be collected, filtered and reused directly in shops. 
During my apprenticeship, this was one of my daily jobs. hook up the filter machine, and run the dirty tank to top up the clean tank.
It ran through 5 filters and came out pretty damn clean. 

Cant do that anymore.

There's too many coolants being used. All proprietary, all void warranty if not used. Some are damn expensive, Volkswagon Coolant is $50.00/jug.

Brake fluid is silicone based and cannot be recycled very easy. We capture it and send it out to the local Oil recyclers. 

Transmission/Power steering fluid is the same as Engine oil, but dyed red and different additives, Can be disposed or re-refined the same as Engine oil. 

Refrigerant: This nasty stuff should be outlawed. Period. 
The First version of Refrigerant R12 ate a hole in the Ozone layer. For every particle of R12 in the air, it breaks up 12-50 particles of Ozone. (it's been a long time since A/C certification)
Now we use R134a
This crap is just as bad. It does not Deplete the Ozone layer, But it is a Greenhouse Gas. and should not be released to atmosphere. 

Here's the real fun Part about A/C systems in Vehicles.........._Every Single one leaks _Let that sink in for a minute........._Every single one leaks _Right from new. The particles of R134a are smaller than the Rubber compound of the hoses. so they Very very slowly leak right on out.

This is why every 3 years or so, you have to get "Topped up" Because it only has to last until warranty is expired, then it's your problem

there are Carbon Dioxide and propane based refrigerants but for some reason they aren't used in vehicles......Btw for those about to say "Propane is flammable, well so is R134a" When it burned it produces a deadly gas called "Phosgene gas". It will kill you if you breath in enough.



I guess this was a long way of saying.

Vehicles are not environmentally Friendly in any way shape or Form. 
the Materials used range from mundane, (Metal/rubber) to expensive (Titanium/platinum in Cat Converters) to polluting (r12/R134a, nitrous oxide, Carbon Dioxide)

Vehicles Suck.
But I make a good living Fixing them.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

djmarcelca said:


> Tires: Difficult to recycle. The steel and polyester reinforcement have to be separated from the rubber - my melting the rubber, (What a smell)
> Steel/cast iron, Melt and re-use. Great stuff
> Copper: Melt and re-use
> Aluminum: Melt and re-use
> ...


What's scary is that I bet you'll find most of this stuff in your average house too .............


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

There is an ad on tv right now about Chevs......with wifi and I ask myself, why. There's a lot of places where it won't work if it needs cell phone coverage. The more I hear about modern innovations they are putting in new cars the more the 49 Dodge Sounds like it will happen as soon as the 81 Harley is finished.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

ShawGo wifi is pretty much everywhere in major cities. I even get it at home if I want to switch to it for some reason.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

bluzfish said:


> ShawGo wifi is pretty much everywhere in major cities. I even get it at home if I want to switch to it for some reason.


That's fine if you're with Shaw....and in a city. There are a lot of "dead" areas around here for cell coverage and I know there are quite a few north of Edmonton on the way to Grande Prairie. I guess Red Deer is not a major city because Shaw coverage is sporadic. There's not a lot outside of the city core. Even where my son lives in Calgary has no Shawgo hot spots. I guess it's just another thing for people who just have to have their wifi and basically just never leave the city.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Yeah, the ads are trying to appeal to the classic yuppie - young, hip and really really cool, or at least those that think that's what they wanna be. As usual though, advertizing never even comes close to the mythical hype it attempts to spew.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

bluzfish said:


> Yeah, the ads are trying to appeal to the classic yuppie - young, hip and really really cool, or at least those that think that's what they wanna be. As usual though, advertizing never even comes close to the mythical hype it attempts to spew.


We were young, hip and really. really cool once too, if I remember correctly (a lot of that time is kinda fuzzy). Here we are now, fine upstanding memebers of our communities......where did we go wrong?


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Electraglide said:


> We were young, hip and really. really cool once too, if I remember correctly (a lot of that time is kinda fuzzy). Here we are now, fine upstanding memebers of our communities......where did we go wrong?


Not really. We're still musicians aren't we? Screw the man!


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## Guest (May 28, 2015)

http://fusion.net/story/139703/self-parking-car-accident-no-pedestrian-detection/

Last week, a gossip blog based in the Dominican Republic called Remolacha published a 
disturbing video of what it said was a “self-parking car accident.” A group of people stand 
in a garage watching and filming a grey Volvo XC60 that backs up, stops, and then 
accelerates toward the group. It smashes into two people, and causes the person filming 
the video with his phone to drop it and run. 

The main issue, said Larsson, is that it appears that the people who bought this Volvo did 
not pay for the “Pedestrian detection functionality,” which is a feature that _costs more money._

[video=youtube;_8nnhUCtcO8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8nnhUCtcO8[/video]


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