# Are guitar players irrational?



## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

Most guitar players shy away from solid state amps. Many to the point where they look down on any solid state circuitry in the preamp, e.g. Blackstar. They buy expensive, all tube amps with point to point wiring then put half a dozen solid state pedals in front of the amp.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Kerry Brown said:


> Most guitar players shy away from solid state amps. Many to the point where they look down on any solid state circuitry in the preamp, e.g. Blackstar. *They buy expensive, all tube amps with point to point wiring then put half a dozen solid state pedals in front of the amp.*


You seem to state the bolded as if putting SS based pedals in front of a tube amp makes it sound like SS pedals in front of an SS amp. I have enough experience to know this is not the case. 
Solid state amps have their place in the toolbox for those that use them. Some of the confusion may be when a Solid State manufacture markets their amp as "Sounding just like a tube amp" and a consumer expecting it to. Guitar players shy away from solid state amps if they want a tube sound and know better.


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## crann (May 10, 2014)

Yes


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Kerry Brown said:


> Most guitar players shy away from solid state amps. Many to the point where they look down on any solid state circuitry in the preamp, e.g. Blackstar. They buy expensive, all tube amps with point to point wiring then put half a dozen solid state pedals in front of the amp.


If not irrational, at least resistant to change / progress, almost to the point of dogma.

ie., we all know that tubes sound better, so with that as the revealed word of the Tone Gods, we can now start the discussion...


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

Guitar players are, as a general rule, very anachronistic.


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## crann (May 10, 2014)

Kerry Brown said:


> then put half a dozen solid state pedals in front of the amp.


I agree with guitarman2 that this statement is misguided/out of place. I'm not an electrical engineer but the way traditional guitar pedals like a TS interact with low voltage guitar signal is very different than how a preamp or power amp does. So the clipping, filtering, waveform modulation that occurs between the guitar and amp do not effectively render the amplification of an input signal as equal between a SS or tube circuit.

Different story with things like Iridium etc.

I like ceramic pickups and SS amps but don't currently own either.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Okay Player said:


> Guitar players are, as a general rule, very anachronistic.


New word for me...


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

Kerry Brown said:


> Most guitar players shy away from solid state amps. Many to the point where they look down on any solid state circuitry in the preamp, e.g. Blackstar. They buy expensive, all tube amps with point to point wiring then put half a dozen solid state pedals in front of the amp.


I've had a few solid state amps that sound very good. I just prefer tube amps. If you picked out 10 examples of each randomly, you might find 6-7 tube amps that sound good, and 1-2 solid state (there's a lot of dogs out there). A question of the right tool for the right job - a JC-120 isn't for everyone, but it would be hard to argue against it being an iconic sound.


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## NoEncores (Sep 23, 2018)

there are no hard fast rules with playing guitar. we all have opinions on what works best for different reasons. the reality is that the only person missing out is the snob that punches down on a product out of bullheaded pride.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

I am one of those that follows "if it sounds good, it is good." I have a red stripe Peavey Bandit. It sounds great. I also have a 6505MH, which also sounds great. Whatever works, works, and whatever doesn't, doesn't.

No rules, no need to overthink things.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

Definitely irrational. Here's a (not so serious) list that may or may not apply.

We beat up perfectly good guitars to make them look vintage.

We use tubes and high impedance gear like it's the 50's.

We trade up perfectly good gear to get more gear, even though we end up sounding the same.

We'd rather buy more gear than pay for lessons.

We complain about the price of guitars when in reality, guitars often cost a lot less than other instruments.

We still put up with single coil hum.

We don't tune the guitar in 4ths, which would make our lives easier (but unable to play AC/DC).

We bring $10k worth of gear to a $100 gig.

We go on forums to talk about stuff we already know.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

^ Heh heh - true dat.

I think it's best to own both tube & SS amps.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Grab n Go said:


> ...
> We don't tune the guitar in 4ths, which would make our lives easier (but unable to play AC/DC).
> ...


I agreed until I got to this one. Now we can't be friends. 😢


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

bw66 said:


> I agreed until I got to this one. Now we can't be friends. 😢


Well, the solution is to have more than one guitar. One in 4ths and one for AC/DC.


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## LouisFNCyphre (Apr 23, 2021)

Guitar players are all humans, right?
Humans are irrational creatures.


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

Short answer with my experience as amp repair man ; 

Solid state amps and solid state pedal are apple an orange.

Most of solid state amps we see are made with poor quality parts.
Not easy to find which one are good.
Many tubes amps too but not too many. More easy to find which are good one.

Solid state pedal ; most are good quality.
A good quality SS pedal with a good amp ( SS or tubes ) will give you a great sound 

Don't forget , it is a short answer


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

This was posted five years ago and he hasn't changed his mind


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Hybrids may be more acceptable to guitar players, than a straight SS amp. I prefer vacuum tube amplification with SS buffering (no allowance for solid-state amplification). I have found that as long as a SS device is not amplifying, it has no impact to the dynamics of the signal.


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## DavidP (Mar 7, 2006)

To answer the original question: YES!!!


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

And yes, many many guitarists are irrational. "One of the problems with human intelligence is that we are so good at defending ideas that we arrived at irrationally" Guitar players that are tube amp fundamentalists are really, really good at defending their beliefs in valve amps that one can never ever win an argument against them, so, why even bother.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

I look at it this way: whether a musician is happy or not is what really produces good music. Whether they're stubborn or even ignorant about what they play through doesn't matter, as long as they're content with their gear, their tone and that their audience likes it too.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

LouisFNCyphre said:


> Guitar players are all humans, right?


Barely, but I mean, we aren't bassists or drummers. Those people are monsters.


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

Meh.

Irrational would be insisting on using a tube overdrive into a tube amp when a solid state overdrive into a tube amp sounds better.


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## Jeff MacKillican (Jan 23, 2021)

I must admit I have generally been a tube snob, but recently picked up a vibro champ xd and upgraded the speaker. It’s a great little grab and go, and you don’t need any pedals. Not quite full tube, but close, and it was a bargain.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

I say you should have a few of everything… just have fun…


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Frenchy99 said:


> I say you should have a few of everything… just have fun…


Kudos to those who have fun without a few of everything (I'd say "teach me" but I'm pretty happy with my variety).


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

It is all relative. Easy to be happy with something until you do a direct comparison with something else.

A Peavey Bandit has its strengths, no question. In a studio setting, a sonic comparison of a Bandit vs a half decent tube amp usually leads to an embarrassing defeat for the Peavey. 

It is a good lesson, one that most never repeat. The memory of sheepishly coiling up the 18ft power cord and moving the Bandit well out of sight is hard to forget.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

FatStrat2 said:


> I look at it this way: whether a musician is happy or not is what really produces good music. Whether they're stubborn or even ignorant about what they play through doesn't matter, as long as they're content with their gear, their tone and that their audience likes it too.


My experience is that 99% of the audience couldn’t care less about your tone. Most of my experience is playing in bars. If they can recognize the odd song and dance once in a while your tone is perfect.


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

Kerry Brown said:


> My experience is that 99% of the audience couldn’t care less about your tone. Most of my experience is playing in bars. If they can recognize the odd song and dance once in a while your tone is perfect.


Maybe you should think about getting better gigs. You set your own "bar". No judgement, just an observation. It is totally ok to perpetuate the jaded bar band musician shtick. Honestly, if you don't give a shit and the audience doesn't either, what the fuck is your motivation?

Irrational? Maybe so. Lazy, unimaginative? Definitely.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

I enjoy playing in bars. You get immediate feedback when people get up and dance. I don’t play for me. I play for the audience.


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

Kerry Brown said:


> I enjoy playing in bars. You get immediate feedback when people get up and dance. I don’t play for me. I play for the audience.


Cool. So many reasons to "take the gig".
.

i


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

Are guitar player are irrational ? 

Not only guitar players, most of the people are irrational. Look around you.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Kerry Brown said:


> My experience is that 99% of the audience couldn’t care less about your tone.


There it is again. Who here asks the audience what kind of gear they prefer you use? Thats irrational. If I build a house and I like to use a particular type of hammer to drive the nails I'm sure the person that moves in to the house couldn't give a shit what hammer I used. But while I built that house I sure liked using that particular hammer.
The guitars, amps, pedals and any other equipment I use I chose for me. I gave potential future audiences absolutely no consideration when I bought them.
If I played gear based on what I could get away with and commensurate with what a bar gig pays I'd be playing the cheapest squire tele, through a peavey bandit I got off Kijiji for $100 through a couple of Indonesian made boss pedals on the floor. My tastes are a little more exotic than that and thats just for me.


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## slag banal (May 4, 2020)

“…humans are not so much rational animals as rationalizing ones. Intelligent people are extraordinarily skilled at finding reasons to support their prejudices. All of us are adept at spotting patterns that appear to support our beliefs – an observation that holds true whether you are a 16th-century Anabaptist heretic” or a 21st-century collector of vintage tube amps


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

guitarman2 said:


> ...the cheapest squire tele, through a peavey bandit I got off Kijiji for $100 through a couple of Indonesian made boss pedals on the floor....


With the right skill set and a good ear, that setup would produce excellent tones.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

FatStrat2 said:


> With the right skill set and a good ear, that setup would produce excellent tones.


I agree. And it would easily do. But better equipment with good setups can be better. Or everyone would play a squire and a bandit. Its equally as bad to criticize players who play a squire and bandit as it is to criticize someone who chooses to buy expensive boutique equipment. Yet threads like this keep getting created. Buy what you can afford and enjoy it.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

guitarman2 said:


> I agree. And it would easily do. But better equipment with good setups can be better. Or everyone would play a squire and a bandit. Its equally as bad to criticize players who play a squire and bandit as it is to criticize someone who chooses to buy expensive boutique equipment. Yet threads like this keep getting created. Buy what you can afford and enjoy it.


I didn't start the thread as a criticism. I observed something that I thought was weird and strange and was pointing out the irrationality of it. It was meant to be humourous. If people took that as a criticism then that is on them. I believe that whatever works for you and makes you a better player is right for you. Choice of gear, the tone you hear in your head, etc. doesn't have to be rational. It is art, not science. Science may be involved in the design of the gear but making music with it is an art.


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## Grainslayer (Sep 26, 2016)

.My little and inexpensive yamaha thr5 sound great to my ears in my living room...well,at least as good as my guitar playing will allow.lol..


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

I guess it come down to if you think having a tube pre amp makes that much of a difference. Even if you have a pedal in front, the tube preamp flavors your sound... Some might think that SS pre amps are not as harmonically as good?

I personally love my Acoustic 450 head and my Traynor Mono Block heads for bass... Both SS amps! They are my go to heads for live gigs...

Different story for guitar, its all tube amps for guitar.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Kerry Brown said:


> I didn't start the thread as a criticism.


Being a bass player playing with guitar players for over 40 years , I can vouch that all guitar players are Irrational !!!


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this. _Bertrand Russell_


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

As far as solid state amps--I own & use Solid state, tube, hybrid & digital amps.
they all have their pros & cons.

For years my main amp was a Roland Jazz Chorus-I still own it. & still use it.

I remember many times going to jam & setting up an Ibanez Iceman into a Boss DS-1 into a JC amp--and seeing other sneer or even outright doubt I'll sound any good.

And then after--thse same guitar players, while they may not have been impressed by my playing (Some were, some weren't) there were several that raved about my tone.
And they wanted to try it out.

I dont' know that na JC amps or DS-1s got sold because of that--but their pre conceived prejudice against Solid state (& against DS-1s and/or Boss, as well as some having a negative impression of Ibanez-or thought it was a Paul Stanley guitar (It wasn't--different pickups & other stuff from the Paul Stanley models) was challenged.

So I don't go by those supposed common knowledge stuff--and just get what I like.


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## SmoggyTwinkles (May 31, 2021)

Robert1950 said:


> And yes, many many guitarists are irrational. "One of the problems with human intelligence is that we are so good at defending ideas that we arrived at irrationally" Guitar players that are tube amp fundamentalists are really, really good at defending their beliefs in valve amps that one can never ever win an argument against them, so, why even bother.


"If the guitar amp tube didn't exist, man would create it"

-Mark Twain.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

SmoggyTwinkles said:


> "If the guitar amp tube didn't exist, man would create it"
> 
> -Mark Twain.


I rest my case.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

I used to use an Acoustic Image Clarus amp that I liked quite a bit. It was a SS combo amp with down firing woofer and a mid a tweeter. Full range and great for clean playing. I used it with a semi-hollow, nylon, steel string and bass. It was superior to my vintage deluxe reverb that I had for the music I was playing at the time- jazz and acoustic based music.
The DR was superior for anything where you need more cut, bloom, volume, harmonic reaction, spank, thrust, punch, chime, raunch, attack and anything where you might make use of your guitars volume control to create dynamics. Other than that the SS amp was the bomb.  

Actually I really did like the Acoustic Image amp and would happily own another if I want that particular sound. I eventually removed the head from the cab and got a Raezer's Edge 2x8 cab for it. That was a huge improvement over the original cab. Much more forward throw and better for band playing. Very nice sound for jazz and light fusion type stuff. In the end though, I prefer tube amps. It is not irrational, just based on experience using both.


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## TheGASisReal (Mar 2, 2020)

"Nitro" vs "Poly"


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## Zebjo (Jun 9, 2021)

Kerry Brown said:


> Most guitar players shy away from solid state amps. Many to the point where they look down on any solid state circuitry in the preamp, e.g. Blackstar. They buy expensive, all tube amps with point to point wiring then put half a dozen solid state pedals in front of the amp.


You know what is even more tiring than vacuum tube dogma? Hearing snarky opinions from folks who are so clearly and obviously clueless about the audio pathways, and how they may or may not be affected by VT vs SS technology. Yawn....


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Zebjo said:


> You know what is even more tiring than vacuum tube dogma? Hearing snarky opinions from folks who are so clearly and obviously clueless about the audio pathways, and how they may or may not be affected by VT vs SS technology. Yawn....


I see that this was your first post on this forum. Welcome... that was quite the entrance!


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

isoneedacoffee said:


> I see that this was your first post on this forum. Welcome... that was quite the entrance!


I guess I should have included some emoticons in the original post so people would have figured out it was a bit of humour


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

isoneedacoffee said:


> I see that this was your first post on this forum. Welcome... that was quite the entrance!


Guitars Canada: a refuge for all those banned from TGP.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

If you're playing right off the stage or close to that simple a set up, the audience may benefit or at least be exposed to that beautiful vintage tube tone you're so fixated on.

Once you start mic'ing things up and actually mixing FOH, that tone goes through an awful lot of wire and circuitry before it reaches the seats.

I don't know if people really consider that but:

1. Mic to Snake - usually 20~50' of low impedence (XLR).
2. Snake to board / FOH desk - Old school was 100', again XLR. These days the snake is usually digital, so 100~200' of LAN cable).
3. Through the board and rack - Kilometers of circuitry and processing.
4. Return trip through the snake to the stage and power amp inputs. - Another 100~200' of either XLR or LAN.
5. From the ouput of the amps to the FOH speakers.- Generally short runs of unshielded speaker wire.
6. Finally through the air to the ears of your audience.


Now, I'm not saying that the most excellent tube tone coming from the stage is completely gone or transformed, but it sure as shit has been through the wringer.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

Milkman said:


> If you're playing right off the stage or close to that simple a set up, the audience may benefit or at least be exposed to that beautiful vintage tube tone you're so fixated on.
> 
> Once you start mic'ing things up and actually mixing FOH, that tone goes through an awful lot of wire and circuitry before it reaches the seats.
> 
> ...


See, this is why I _refuse _to do stadium gigs. Too much tone loss. I'm sticking with those gigs where I can melt the faces of those folks in the front who can hear the difference between NOS Mullards and those run of the mill..spec RCA tubes.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

zztomato said:


> See, this is why I _refuse _to do stadium gigs. Too much tone loss. I'm sticking with those gigs where I can melt the faces of those folks in the front who can hear the difference between NOS Mullards and those run of the mill..spec RCA tubes.



Well, even club gigs can (and should IMO) be done with a proper mix. 

I wasn't ever inclined to wait until I reached the stadium level to start trying to mix everything properly.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Well, even club gigs can (and should IMO) be done with a proper mix.
> 
> I wasn't ever inclined to wait until I reached the stadium level to start trying to mix everything properly.


Also why we never made much money after all was said and done.

But that really wasn't our goal after all.


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

Milkman said:


> Now, I'm not saying that the most excellent tube tone coming from the stage is completely gone or transformed, but it sure as shit has been through the wringer.


Very true. Perhaps reason enough to get your part of the signal chain as close to 100%. It is worthwhile to have the band mix in perspective. 

You pretty much want the soundguy to raise the channel fader and if needed, make minimal eq adjustments. "Fix it in the mix" eq cuts and boosts are a slippery slope, you take the good with the bad...


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

tonewoody said:


> Very true. Perhaps reason enough to get your part of the signal chain as close to 100%. It is worthwhile to have the band mix in perspective.
> 
> You pretty much want the soundguy to raise the channel fader and if needed, make minimal eq adjustments. "Fix it in the mix" eq cuts and boosts are a slippery slope, you take the good with the bad...


Fair enough, and I would hasten to add what every sound man knows, that a good band really mixes itself to a large extent.

If the guy on stage has his shit together and the band is responsive to each other and dynamic, a lot of the time a soundman can relax and enjoy the set.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

I own an amp that says the word TUBE on the front 7 times. It contains exactly 1 tube.


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## Zebjo (Jun 9, 2021)

isoneedacoffee said:


> I see that this was your first post on this forum. Welcome... that was quite the entrance!


Sorry, couldn't help myself. I'm a curmudgeon now, borne of years playing local scenes and repairing amps as a sideline. So much silliness and pot-stirring over tube vs SS....


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