# If a 15 watt tube amp sounds about as loud as a 75 solid state amp...



## lelouch (Jul 30, 2013)

Why do you have to turn up the tube amp higher when gigging?

Like, I've heard of people who had to turn their Tiny Terrors up to 90% or 75% volume, while some wouldn't even dream of bringing their AC15s to really loud gigs. Yet there are people who are able to turn their 60 or 75 watt amps up to about 4 on the volume dial, and they can cut through easily.

I know that my Blues Junior isn't nearly as loud as my brother's old 75 watt spider, at least in the house it isn't. It sounds like it's as loud as a 40 or 45 watt solid state amp!


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

lelouch said:


> Why do you have to turn up the tube amp higher when gigging?
> 
> Like, I've heard of people who had to turn their Tiny Terrors up to 90% or 75% volume, while some wouldn't even dream of bringing their AC15s to really loud gigs. Yet there are people who are able to turn their 60 or 75 watt amps up to about 4 on the volume dial, and they can cut through easily.
> 
> I know that my Blues Junior isn't nearly as loud as my brother's old 75 watt spider, at least in the house it isn't. It sounds like it's as loud as a 40 or 45 watt solid state amp!


There are a number of things going on. First off, the generally accepted figure for tube amps sounding louder than solid state transistor amps is 3. So a 100 watt tube amp will sound about as loud as a 300 watt solid state unit.

However, the speakers can be a BIG factor! More cone area means more air moved, which means louder! So a 2x10" will not sound quite as loud as a 2x12" or certainly, a 4x12".

Even more important, some speakers are much more efficient than others, delivering more acoustic watts for the same amount of electrical watts pumped into them. A standard mod today is to replace an Italian Jensen 12" in an amp like a Blues Deluxe with a Weber or Eminence unit. The newer technology speakers will sound MUCH louder!

You have to look at the entire system!

Wild Bill


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## jimmydime (Nov 22, 2013)

Simply not true. I have both amps... ie: Peavey Vypyr 75 watt solid state and a 15 watt Peavey Windsor Studio. The 15 watter is loud, but it is not as loud as the Vypyr. The 75 watt amp will cut through anything even in the loudest bars it stands out. I have rarely ever had to mic it, I just crank the shit out of it and rock.
The 15 watt is mostly for home use, but the one time I did use it for a gig I had to mic it. I've played it through cabs, ect... sounds "bigger" that way, but not as loud as the 75 straight out of the cabinet. 
The 100 to 300 comparison may be closer if your running heads out of huge cabs, but you can only stand so loud anyway. It just becomes more and more overkill. Goes to 11?


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

i have not much to add here.

with my tiny terror, I ran it about 50%.

with 18 watt marshall clone, I run it about 15-20% and get the same volume

my AC15 about the same as the TT.

I can also run my 6 watt Valvetrain princeton clone at about 60-70% and be about the same as the others

some amps will be 100% of their volume at lets say 50% and then just become more saturated.


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## bluesguitar1972 (Jul 16, 2011)

Last few amps I've gigged with haven't been over 20w - I don't really need to mic my Z but I do, so I can keep a sane stage volume. I typically run it about 50-60% and splash some through the mains. You get a much more even sound out front. I've gigged with different higher watt tube amps, mostly Fenders and Traynors (mostly fenders) and how much it cuts can have as much to do with tone as volume. My old Budda 20w cut tremendously well, as does my Carmen Ghia. Tonally, I prefer a warmer creamier sound, but on the floor, gigging...treble is king.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

jimmydime said:


> Simply not true. I have both amps... ie: Peavey Vypyr 75 watt solid state and a 15 watt Peavey Windsor Studio. The 15 watter is loud, but it is not as loud as the Vypyr. The 75 watt amp will cut through anything even in the loudest bars it stands out. I have rarely ever had to mic it, I just crank the shit out of it and rock.
> The 15 watt is mostly for home use, but the one time I did use it for a gig I had to mic it. I've played it through cabs, ect... sounds "bigger" that way, but not as loud as the 75 straight out of the cabinet.
> The 100 to 300 comparison may be closer if your running heads out of huge cabs, but you can only stand so loud anyway. It just becomes more and more overkill. Goes to 11?


Well, your Vypyr is 5 times the power of the smaller amp, not 3. Also, what about the voicing? A bright amp will always sound louder than one more geared to mids or bottom. A bass guitar needs 3 times the power of a Marshall used for lead riffs. That's why an AC 30 competes so well with many 50 watt rigs, or why early Marshalls have that "icepick in your ears" level of treble.

You also have to pay attention to your speaker load with a a solid state amps. Tube amps don't really feel a mismatch much but solid state amps are completely different. They simply pump out more power as you lower the speaker load. The designer will put a limit on the lowest safe impedance, so that the transistors won't burn out. If you read the warning label on the back of the amp you might see something like "100 watts, minimum 4 ohms". If you plug in an 8 ohm cab, you will get much less power, perhaps nearing half of that full 100 watts. A 16 ohm cab will be even less!

It's all just physics. Mother Nature has Her laws and the Universe works HER way! There is no magic involved. This has all been discovered, worked out and explained before you or even I were born!

Wild Bill


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Interesting thread. I would swear my Kustom 5W tube amp with a 1x12 cab is as loud or louder than my 65W Traynor SS amp, which also has a 12" speaker. I would also think the Traynor had a better quality speaker.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Anyone who blindly trusts the published specs of a solid-state amp should probably steer clear of the stock market, as they will be bankrupted post-haste.

Not that manufacturers of SS amps are liars, but the ratings are often closer to what the power stage _could_ do, IF it had the right power supply and input signal. So, you'll see SS amps that use power-amp chips that are rated at a certain wattage, but the wattage ratings might be for a +/-35V power supply and the amp just happens to use +/-25V. Reminds me of an old SNL sketch where Bill Murray, in the personna of Todd De La Muca, is trying to impress a musician playing at his high school dance, saying "I coulda taken band, but I took shop instead, but I_* coulda *_taken band...". It coulda been 50W, with the right power supply and gain structure, but it's only 25, but it _*coulda*_ been 50.

And, as one has to do on a regular basis, I remind people that a wattage rating is simply an indication of how much current the amp can pass into a designated load without going poof from overheating. It is NOT an indication of what the amp does *in spite of *how the controls are set, the load used, the efficiency of the speaker/s and/or cab, the input signal level, the gain structure, and the extent to which the resulting timbre is _perceptually_ louder.

Part of what earns tube amps their reputation as being "louder" than SS amps of the same _stated_ wattage is that much about tube amps is directed at increasing the overall amount of harmonic content, and THAT makes an amp sound louder. The frequent natural compression of an amp with a tube rectifier also creates the impression of generally higher amplitude, just as the compressors used in broadcast studios make announcer voices seem louder than voices in movies.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

In addition to all that has been said here, never compare numbers on knob settings. They are completely meaningless. The only time you can compare them is when you have two amps of the EXACT same model. They are just numbers painted on a knob that have no real relation to anything. Nigel Tufnel did not get this part (see "11" scene).


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

Tube amps generally sound better when you get the power tubes working, ie, turning it up. So you'll usually get a better tone using a 15/18/20 watt amp cranked somewhat, and mic it, rather than turning your 100 watt Marshall down to 1 or 2. 

And micing an amp isn't just about making it louder, it's about getting the band sound balanced. Having a monster loud amp that overpowers the PA doesn't do your band any favors.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

dwagar said:


> And micing an amp isn't just about making it louder, it's about getting the band sound balanced. Having a monster loud amp that overpowers the PA doesn't do your band any favors.


I don't see the problem, dwagar. Why not just turn the PA and everything else up louder to match!

If it's not loud, it's not rock and roll!:slash:

Wild Bill


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Your spider is a tinny bright mess. My friends spider 2 halfstack seemed louder then my jsx full stack, because it sounded like a buzzsaw. Volume does not equal tone. Likewise, a forum buddy on here has a Dr Z that slices through my halfstack with 1/3 the wattage and half the speakers because it's voiced differently.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> I don't see the problem, dwagar. Why not just turn the PA and everything else up louder to match!
> 
> If it's not loud, it's not rock and roll!:slash:
> 
> Wild Bill


LOL.
Most of us don't get to play stadiums.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

dwagar said:


> LOL.
> Most of us don't get to play stadiums.


Stadiums? I was talking living rooms!:sFun_dancing:

Wild Bill


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## LPBlue (Feb 2, 2006)

Wild Bill said:


> I don't see the problem, dwagar. Why not just turn the PA and everything else up louder to match!
> 
> If it's not loud, it's not rock and roll!:slash:
> 
> ...



"Ok, can we have everything...louder than everything else?"


J.R.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Yes folks that's right.

Mine goes to eleven.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I can't add anything to the original question, but in terms of wattages I can tell you I have yet to get my 38 watt 2 X 10 Dr. Z tube combo past 4 on the master volume and IMO that was too loud.

At rehearsals i run the master at 2 ~ 3.

When I finish the little amp I'm building (15 watts EL84 powered), I'm going to try it at a rehearsal. I'll be able to open it up a little more than the Dr. Z


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

even though I feel this is a bit of a troll thread I gotta jump in 
well done troll

#1 after 30+ years of attending rock-shows of all levels arenas to bars, and taking an active interest in various buddies bands I gotta say categorically 
I have yet to hear a solid state amp that actually came close to sounding even OK in a live band setting. 
to the point where I have been painfully embarrassed for guys who play really well and should know better. 
This years highly touted modeling "as good as tube" amp sounds just like a nasty 1983 peavey renown or bandit to the audience. 
fingernails on blackboard ..... guitarists have been struggline with the newest & latest tube emulation technology for 30+ years
next year there will be a better solution, again ..."wash rinse repeat"

#2 admittedly not all tube amps are golden ..
yes in the glory days when your choices were Fender or Marshall your odds of getting a good amp we pretty spectacular... 
with the proliferation of killer pedals these days... a 66 vibrolux and a cool pedalboard is an even more applicable setup 
than it was 25 years ago 
there are a lot of modern tube amps with clipping diodes, modeling stages and other gadgets to attract our inner squirrel (ohh, shiny new thing!) 
Unfortunately most of these sound like that 1982 bandit from 35 feet back 

We can admit it is now more difficult to stroll into your local MUSIC STORE and accidentally buy a great amp, or even a 1966 vibrolux ...
But the pedal choices available today more than make up ... 
Don't get me wrong great amps are out there, the Blues JR is great for the dough, Traynors ygl1 is a smokin' amp .. the tiny terror is cool 
there are good boutique amps everywhere (there are bad posers too!) 
I played a NEW 94 korg/ Vox ac30 in bars 12 years and it sounded killer 

There are amazing Garnets to be found and played and older Guitar mates, all reasonable at $300 -$400 
plus a good speaker and a few bux for new filter caps 

to get back to wattage 
a Traynor guitar mate is 15 to 18 watts depending on how you measure 
with the stock speaker and an as it sits 30 year old amp you have zero headroom 

replace the speaker with an excellent modern 12, refresh the filter caps 
and have your tech raise the pre amp voltages while he's at it 
and you have an amp that is almost as loud as any 40 or 50 watt fender or marshall 
and can be played hard sitting right in its sweet spot all night 

I would venture that almost none of us play guitar for 10,000 people or make more than 
$100 bills playing... so the primary reason to play is self fulfillment...
at this point it stuns me that with the incredible affordability of great playable gear 
I mentioned the Blues JR, and the YGL-1 ... amps by people like Matchless, DR Z 
higher end tube offerings from Peavey and Mesa 
it amazes me that people still show up at clubs with nasty solid state budget amps 
and make excuses like 

"it sounds almost like a tube amp" 
"I will upgrade this at some point " 

you may be lucky enough to believe it sounds good 35 feet out 
but its a plainly audible difference 

I apologize I am not trying to be grumpy old guy or a tube snob ... 
solid state amps are great for lessons and bedroom practice 

tubes are more effective, easily heard and emotionally endearing than the most clever solid state amp 

a good 15 to 30 watt tube amp is suitable for any venue that will actually pay your band to play 
you will sound good and get re booked

p


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## lelouch (Jul 30, 2013)

How in the world was this a troll thread? I was asking a legitimate question about something that I'm curious about...


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> I can't add anything to the original question, but in terms of wattages I can tell you I have yet to get my 38 watt 2 X 10 Dr. Z tube combo past 4 on the master volume and IMO that was too loud.
> 
> At rehearsals i run the master at 2 ~ 3.
> 
> When I finish the little amp I'm building (15 watts EL84 powered), I'm going to try it at a rehearsal. I'll be able to open it up a little more than the Dr. Z


What about turning the amp up and the volume control on your guitar down?


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

My JC 60 has kept up with 50 watt Marshalls-no problem, and even did okay when a 100 watt Marshall was being used--I did have t turn it up a bit louder--but it did the job.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> What about turning the amp up and the volume control on your guitar down?


That's fine if you're trying to clean up your sound, but not if you're playing with overdrive or distortion.

I'm talking about pushing the power section. Backing off your guitar's volume knob is not a good approach to that.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

The first band I played with, I used a Fender M80 solid state.
That was a boxy sounding amp when pushed in a band setting.
An extension cab might have helped.

Next band, I sprung for a Fender Twin, night and day.
The 2x12 certainly helped, but just a richer, fuller sound.
I always used that amp on the low setting, which was 25 watts.
Plenty of oomph, even with a hard hitting drummer.
Volume around 4-5 during jams/practices, 6-7 during gigs.

I recently joined a new band, granted, they're the quietest band that I've been in,
but I had been using my Maz 8 and it was doing just fine.
Probably running around half way on the volume/master volume.

Last jam, I brought my Traynor YGL1 with a Weber Blue Dog and a 1x12 extension cab with a Silver Bell. 
That's a 15 watt amp. It was great, worked out well. 
I believe in what was mentioned about more speakers/air movement, the better.

The bass player had just got an Ampeg SVT head, so I had to up the ante.


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

parkhead said:


> you may be lucky enough to believe it sounds good 35 feet out
> but its a plainly audible difference
> 
> I apologize I am not trying to be grumpy old guy or a tube snob ...
> ...


Parkhead, you said it perfectly! Not only do I think you are absolutely right but you expressed it in plain terms applicable to players, with the voice of REAL experience!

There's no shame in not being able to afford anything but a solid state head for lead guitar. After all, we are mostly Canadians and therefore SUPPOSED to be poor!:sSig_help:

However, to try to pretend that your solid state amp rocks just like a tube amp is only fooling yourself!

Once a good friend of mine, Mark Severn, a fabulous professional and studio guitarist who died WAY too soon! was playing a matinee jam down Niagara Way. He was always insisting his Marshall ValveState sounded just like a Plexi, while he made Farfisa organ sounds with his pedals.:Smiley-fart:

Just for gits and shiggles, I came down bringing one of my homebuilt tube amps actually based on the traditional Marshall circuit, with a 2x12" cab I had built with a pair of vintage Celestions inside. I put my rig up on the stage, to the right of Mark's setup.

Since it was a jam and this was the Niagara area, home to LOTS of great musicians over the years! most guys would naturally plug in to Mark's ValveState transistor amp. As things warmed up however eventually a second guitarist came up and plugged into my amp.

It was hilarious to watch what started to happen! As soon as my amp got played every guitarist after that ignored Mark's solid state combo, only using it if someone got to my tube amp first!

Mark didn't want to let on that this was happening but he started wandering through the club trying not to be too obvious about having his ear cocked to listen to the sound! A mutual friend, Kim Germaine was there. Kim is guitar and vocal dynamite in a gorgeous tiny package! She was a good friend of Mark's and we both got a good chuckle watching his reactions.

The proof is in the pudding, as they say.

Wild Bill


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

Not only do well-designed tube amps sound better, they "feel" better when you play through them. Isn't music about emotion?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Holy crap! Someone else who says "gits and shiggles"!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> That's fine if you're trying to clean up your sound, but not if you're playing with overdrive or distortion.
> 
> I'm talking about pushing the power section. Backing off your guitar's volume knob is not a good approach to that.


True. I mostly use my effects pedal. That seems to work in that situation but if you were going straight to the amp it would not. Is my reasoning on this correct or am I missing something?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Wild Bill said:


> Parkhead, you said it perfectly! Not only do I think you are absolutely right but you expressed it in plain terms applicable to players, with the voice of REAL experience!
> 
> There's no shame in not being able to afford anything but a solid state head for lead guitar. After all, we are mostly Canadians and therefore SUPPOSED to be poor!:sSig_help:
> 
> ...


That may be true of one amp trying to emulate a tube amp but with the new effects units and amps like Fenders Mustang series with the Fuse software, I don't believe you can tell the difference. I posted this before but will do so again.

A test was done with two amps, the tube amp and the Fender Mustang. Recording the same music with the same song, same guitar, same everything except the amps two clips were made; one with each amp. In a poll about 50% got it right and 50% got it wrong. This rating usually shows that people were guessing. Many comments about the wrong answers from musicians who swore they could tell the difference between the real thing and effects were surprised they were fooled. 

Some of the effects units produced today are not very good, some are quite decent and the best ones will fool us. Stereotyping all effects units as _"not the same as the real thing"_ just doesn't hold water (or sound) any longer IMHO.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> True. I mostly use my effects pedal. That seems to work in that situation but if you were going straight to the amp it would not. Is my reasoning on this correct or am I missing something?



I use pedals for dirt too, but tube amps really don't deliver their goods until you push the output stage IMO.

The sound better when you make them work a little.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Milkman said:


> I use pedals for dirt too, but tube amps really don't deliver their goods until you push the output stage IMO.
> 
> They sound better when you make them work a little.


I'll have to play around with this some more.........when my wife is out of the house.


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

Steadfastly said:


> That may be true of one amp trying to emulate a tube amp but with the new effects units and amps like Fenders Mustang series with the Fuse software, I don't believe you can tell the difference. I posted this before but will do so again.
> 
> A test was done with two amps, the tube amp and the Fender Mustang. Recording the same music with the same song, same guitar, same everything except the amps two clips were made; one with each amp. In a poll about 50% got it right and 50% got it wrong. This rating usually shows that people were guessing. Many comments about the wrong answers from musicians who swore they could tell the difference between the real thing and effects were surprised they were fooled.
> 
> Some of the effects units produced today are not very good, some are quite decent and the best ones will fool us. Stereotyping all effects units as _"not the same as the real thing"_ just doesn't hold water (or sound) any longer IMHO.


I will challenge this 
since to be an effective test it was probably done with re -amping

to put it another way 
(my brain is fooled by a high def picture of a pretty girl in a bikini ... neurons fire pulse rate changes ect ect 
but I'd rather interact with a real woman) 
sorry I digress 

A tube amp: 
Reacts to touch 
has a wider dynamic range of sounds 
sits in a live mix better than a solid state amp 

these facets may not be revealed in a re-amped digital audio mix


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

parkhead said:


> I will challenge this
> since to be an effective test it was probably done with re -amping


No, it wasn't. It was two sound clips recorded exactly the same way. This is known, as you're likely aware, as the blind test. This is a true test since the eyes can't fool the mind (ears) by pre-conceived notions.

A number of hard line tube guys had a number of questions like yours and other comments but in the end had to admit they were fooled. Again, we're not talking amp to amp here; we're talking about effects and a tube amp.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

______________


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

nkjanssen said:


> Be aware that you're about to enter this discussion with a person who thinks that actually playing gear is the worst way to assess it. Seriously.
> 
> You can't say you weren't warned.


So, how do you think the sound clip was made?:sSig_Idontgetit:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> I'll have to play around with this some more.........when my wife is out of the house.


Good idea, but it's not something I dreamed up. There's a reason power soaks and variacs were invented. It's also the reason for the popularity of low powered tube amps.

Preamp distortion can be buzzy and sound much like a distortion box. Power amp distortion is sweet, creamy and complex.

But, try it yourself. Crank the amp up and stand off the the side while you play.


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

I am certainly well aware of the Visual bias .... 
My friend calls it the Jimmy Page test ... as In 
"I like my Les Paul it makes me look like Jimmy Page If I squint into the mirror "

My point is slightly different than a blind pepsi challenge 

Given the average musicians budget and the scope of available technology 
most guitarists cannot beat a simple well made 15-45 watt tube amp 
for effective and pleasing amplification ...

this is truer now given the explosion of boutique builders and the 
expanded technical knowledge of the home brew amp builder 

A. why simulate tubes when tubes are so inexpensive easy and effective to implement 
B. given the horrid results most get from wasting their dough on their "simulated equivalent"
I am surprised any manufacturer still tries to sell a solid state amp as a stage tool, even Line 6 
the leaders in this area have hybrid tube offerings so people will take them seriously 

PS line six makes a killer bedroom amp for $99, personally
I will have less sounds and play a vox ac4, tube champ or Valve JR 

P


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

Steadfastly said:


> No, it wasn't. It was two sound clips recorded exactly the same way. This is known, as you're likely aware, as the blind test. This is a true test since the eyes can't fool the mind (ears) by pre-conceived notions.
> 
> A number of hard line tube guys had a number of questions like yours and other comments but in the end had to admit they were fooled. Again, we're not talking amp to amp here; we're talking about effects and a tube amp.


Do you have a link to the test? I ask because a lot of this stuff is internet legend, like the oft-quoted "barbed-wire vs expensive speaker wire test". Didn't likely happen as there's no hard data.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

And here we go again... Tube versus solid state. 


I don't care, just sound good *to me.*


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

WCGill said:


> Do you have a link to the test? I ask because a lot of this stuff is internet legend, like the oft-quoted "barbed-wire vs expensive speaker wire test". Didn't likely happen as there's no hard data.


No. It was on HC some time ago. I looked for it today but couldn't find it. I'm likely using the wrong words for the search or it got lost in one of the forum software updates. The reason I remember it so well it was done by one of the moderators on HC and one of the most respected guys on the forum. I listened myself and couldn't tell them apart. As I'm no sound expert, I felt relieved when the so-called experts got them wrong.


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## LPBlue (Feb 2, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Preamp distortion can be buzzy and sound much like a distortion box. Power amp distortion is sweet, creamy and complex.


Your words although admittedly taken completely out of context, made me question that at four pages into this why no one has mentioned even/odd order harmoncs and how they apply to the overall sound impression?

Tubes distort gradually with even order harmonics which are naturally pleasing to the human ear and ss on the other hand tends to distort more abruptly when pushed with odd order harmonics which our ears deem to be dissonant. Big difference in the two. An acceptible compromise might be a tube pre with an advanced eq coupled to way more wattage than needed ss power amp? My .02Cdn.


J.R.


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

LPBlue said:


> Your words although admittedly taken completely out of context, made me question that at four pages into this why no one has mentioned even/odd order harmoncs and how they apply to the overall sound impression?
> 
> Tubes distort gradually with even order harmonics which are naturally pleasing to the human ear and ss on the other hand tends to distort more abruptly when pushed with odd order harmonics which our ears deem to be dissonant. Big difference in the two. An acceptible compromise might be a tube pre with an advanced eq coupled to way more wattage than needed ss power amp? My .02Cdn.
> 
> ...



There are lots of ways to emulate the correct sound and this is a good example. It's also the example that proves the point. 
To make a solid state power amp work you need to run it in such a way that it NEVER clips. So you need 100 watts of headroom to do the job of two output tubes 
and a transformer. At the end of the day why not use two output tubes and a transformer ? It's not like tubes are exotic technology or difficult to work with. 

We have been SOLD on solid state technology because it is exponentially cheaper to manufacture on a mass scale. 

You might be able to record a solid state amp and conjur up the right mix of artificial harmonics, a little paper cone sizzle, the coloration of an sm57 ectect 
and make a clip that no one can distinguish. 

Take that mustang out to a gig and park it next to a blues JR ... then stand back 35 feet 
the mustang will clip with odd order muffled harmonics and the tube amp will clip with even order (loudness) harmonics.

My point is this why fake tube tone ... when it is widely available 
Line 6 build hybrid tube & modeling amps because they want to be taken seriously... and they cannot model their way to an effective stage amp. 


I look at it like this 
with a solid state amp you give yourself about a 3% chance of sounding good and a 97% chance of sounding bad 
with a tube amp you give yourself about a 75% chance of sounding good right off the bat... all else being equal 
why fight those odds? 

p


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

Well said. "Sounds like tubes", never has and never will. If they said "Sounds like a transistor" no one would buy it. If it's so damn good, why is it always trying to imitate something it's not?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

parkhead said:


> There are lots of ways to emulate the correct sound and this is a good example. It's also the example that proves the point.
> To make a solid state power amp work you need to run it in such a way that it NEVER clips. So you need 100 watts of headroom to do the job of two output tubes
> and a transformer. At the end of the day why not use two output tubes and a transformer ? It's not like tubes are exotic technology or difficult to work with.
> 
> ...


Except for cost your argument seems sound and reasonable. So for a little practice amp an SS amp might be the way to go but when something bigger is required go with the tube amp.

Now that being said, I have a 5W Kustom head and a 1x12 cab that cost $120.00 new.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I agree with Mike, I'd rather run lower wattage at half/two thirds,
than a higher watt amp at a third/under half way.

Get 'em cookin'!


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

Steadfastly said:


> Except for cost your argument seems sound and reasonable. So for a little practice amp an SS amp might be the way to go but when something bigger is required go with the tube amp.
> 
> Now that being said, I have a 5W Kustom head and a 1x12 cab that cost $120.00 new.



that is the exact point. 
there is a HUGE hidden cost to a mid to high powered solid state amp 

A:your sound sucks (no it REALLY SUCKS, go listen from the audience or a board tape) 
B:you are spending significant incremental money to try and solve this problem (pickups, pedals ect ) 
C:at some point you trade in the amp that sucks and try another solid state amp 
D:you are still being drowned out on stage so you plan on buying a higher wattage solid state amp: start over at A 

I see this over and over again with buddies who are afraid because "tubes are expensive" 


You should buy a good quailty 15 to 40 watt tube amp and go and practice to improve your sound, you may still suffer from GAS 
but your tube amp depreciates very slowly... like a quality guitar
(note: if you keep gear for less than a year you are probably beyond hope) 

There are people who want to buy your used 1975 20 watt Deluxe reverb, if you have a 1975 
solid state amp it was worth $0 by 1986... and no one will help you carry it to the trash 


Solid state is only cheaper to manufacture and way more profitable to sell. It can be built by robotic insertion machines or etched on a chip, and it is marginally more reliable during the warranty period. The buyer will not be satisfied with the sound or loudness so within 2 years so they will be back for a new improved amp. 

If a guitarist learns basic maintenance on a tube amp, it is less complicated than changing strings on a guitar, the tube amp will last 40-50+ years. 
If you show up at the gig with a 1975 tube whatever ... no one is going to complain about your outdated sound. 

P


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Bringing 1975 into your argument actually reduces your credibility. I don't think that anyone here is arguing that a solid state amp from 1975 is going to give you a nice warm guitar tone. _Modern_ solid state amps do a very good (even excellent) job of emulating tube tone at a fraction of the price. And stand-alone emulators have improved to the point where many working guitarists are leaving their amps at home - and improving the mix by doing so.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

sulphur said:


> I agree with Mike, I'd rather run lower wattage at half/two thirds,
> than a higher watt amp at a third/under half way.
> 
> Get 'em cookin'!



sometimes you don't want a lot of power amp distortion, but still want the girth a slightly-pushed power section gives


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Budda said:


> sometimes you don't want a lot of power amp distortion, but still want the girth a slightly-pushed power section gives


On both my Maz 8 and the YGL, you'll get to a certain point in the volume range,
where you can almost feel it get "bigger", or girth.
This is my base "clean" tone, it has a touch of hair if you dig in.
It's around halfway on the dial on these two amps.

So, I think that we're in agreement.


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

bw66 said:


> And stand-alone emulators have improved to the point where many working guitarists are leaving their amps at home - and improving the mix by doing so.


Only seen one of these things on stage locally, great player and all the other cats in town, to a man, agree his tone is the lamest thing they've ever heard. I've never seen one on a big stage.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

parkhead said:


> I look at it like this
> with a solid state amp you give yourself about a 3% chance of sounding good and a 97% chance of sounding bad
> with a tube amp you give yourself about a 75% chance of sounding good right off the bat... all else being equal
> why fight those odds?
> ...


I guess that throws the theory "Tone is in the fingers", right out the window.
This guy uses an ancient Roland 2X12 solid state amp and sounds great. And the Tele he's using is a Mexican reissue.

[video=youtube;BQnhQ0qDmlE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQnhQ0qDmlE[/video]


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## Wild Bill (May 3, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> I guess that throws the theory "Tone is in the fingers", right out the window.
> This guy uses an ancient Roland 2X12 solid state amp and sounds great. And the Tele he's using is a Mexican reissue.


A Roland is a great choice for clean, jazzy tones. ANY amp will sound the same as anything else when you set it to be clean!

It's when you advance the gains into distortion that the differences appear. Even when the distortion is not yet at what would seem to be a noticeable level your ear will start to detect differences between a tube and a solid state amp.

Nobody chooses a Roland amp to perform in an AC/DC concert!

Ask Mr. Chapman to play some Rory Gallagher and then listen to his tone with that Roland!

Wild Bill


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## parkhead (Aug 14, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> I guess that throws the theory "Tone is in the fingers", right out the window.
> This guy uses an ancient Roland 2X12 solid state amp and sounds great. And the Tele he's using is a Mexican reissue.
> 
> [video=youtube;BQnhQ0qDmlE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQnhQ0qDmlE[/video]


In this corner representing the 3% who can get away with a clean solid state amp ....

p


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

parkhead said:


> that is the exact point.
> there is a HUGE hidden cost to a mid to high powered solid state amp
> 
> A:your sound sucks (no it REALLY SUCKS, go listen from the audience or a board tape)
> ...



I don't think I totally agree with everything you posted but I do agree in principle. However, I really enjoyed your post!


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## ed2000 (Feb 16, 2007)

Didn't BB King use a Gibson Lab 7(?)amp for concerts?

Back in the 70's I bought a Yamaha 50 4X10 open back combo...seem to recall it sounded pretty good to my ears with my Gibson SG.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

ed2000 said:


> Back in the 70's I bought a Yamaha 50 4X10 open back combo...seem to recall it sounded pretty good to my ears with my Gibson SG.


I quite like the old Yamahas, they were among the nicest solid state amps of that era - I still have my old 30-112 and recently picked up a B50-115. BUT they are all about clean. Definitely _not_ a warm tube sound.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Wild Bill said:


> A Roland is a great choice for clean, jazzy tones. ANY amp will sound the same as anything else when you set it to be clean!
> 
> It's when you advance the gains into distortion that the differences appear. Even when the distortion is not yet at what would seem to be a noticeable level your ear will start to detect differences between a tube and a solid state amp.
> 
> ...


Rolands take pedals quite well-
And while I'm not into AC/DC, I have played them and heavier stuff on my JC--60 with a distortion pedal or two and kept up with the tube amps, and had people compliment my tone, and ask to play through it.


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