# Future of Tube Amps



## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

or Valve amps as they say in Britain.


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## MarkusV (Sep 24, 2009)

As a hobbyist amp builder myself I will always love a proper tube amp . Real power tube distortion. The smell of a hot machine that makes great noise.
Having said that - perhaps Nutube's time has come and we will still have the same bliss in a new format. Sounds better than digital that's for sure

0.02
Markus


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

I have to say that my modellers (had a Helix and now two AmpliFire products) sound damn good and the only thing holding them back is my playing. With modellers, once they are dialled in, you’d be hard-pressed to tell the difference these days. You can see it in the Captain and Chappers video where they can't tell the tubes from the Kemper. I love my Marshall Mini Jubilee, but I also like the different sounds I can get from my AmpliFire and my XiTone cab. It’s great to have options.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

It's really hard to tell much with so many uncontrolled variables. You gotta be able to switch preamp sections only to get any real idea. I realise how not easy that would be to do; you'd probably have to build something special.

That said, it seems to have promise; it's not bad. It sounds much less fat/muddy (in some demonstrated licks this was better and others worse), but it is hard to say how much of that is due to those other factors (and tone settings).


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Hmm, something to think about--but no matter what they come up with--some will be tubes or die!


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I tend to look at this from a long term point of view. There has been no real innovation with tubes in what, 50+ years? Will those 60-70 year old dirty tube factories without automation still be around 30 year from now? R&D in these NuTube and similar technologies has got to start, especially in new power tube technology. Not that I will likely be around in 30 years, but hey...


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

I didnt watch the vid but my take on the modeller vs amp thing is yes you can get them to sound very close, though the modeller I find hides a lot. A clean or dirty tube amp plugged straight in with no effects forces you to play better, very honest sound with nothing to hide behind. The modeller hides a lot, even without effects. When im not playing great at least I can plug into the modeller (11 rack) and sound awesome. The other thing with modellers is they also get distort easier and more so than the amp its supposed to emulate. Higher end modellers may be more representative. I like the 11 rack but it will never replace the jcm800.


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

I haven't heard a modeller/solid state amp that raises the hair on the back of my neck like a tube amp. Until that happens they're just toys.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

BSTheTech said:


> I haven't heard a modeller/solid state amp that raises the hair on the back of my neck like a tube amp. Until that happens they're just toys.


I'm sure we have different taste in music, but my brother has sent me demos using just his POD, amplifire or helix that make me go "how'd you do that". And that's using sub-$500 guitars with stock everything, kid just knows tones.

I'm curious to see what happens to the guitar world once the people born between 1940-1970 aren't here anymore. They are the ones who still have a big pull on the market, and once the '90's kids are 65 what will we see? I'm wondering what companies are out there playing the long game.

I don't want to get anyone charged up so I'm leaving out something that was pointed out following an interview with pedal makers.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

I'll be dead.

There are lots of hairdryers, not many tubes.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Does this look like a tube to anybody? Getting rid of all that high voltage kind of takes the fun out of it, no?


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

Budda said:


> I'm curious to see what happens to the guitar world once the people born between 1940-1970 aren't here anymore. They are the ones who still have a big pull on the market, and once the '90's kids are 65 what will we see? I'm wondering what companies are out there playing the long game.


I suspect there will be a glut of cheap instruments dumped on the market via estate sales that eventually get binned (collector cars and other collectables too). Millennials are showing they have little interest in "things". Clothes on their back and a couple I-devices and they're cool. The long game doesn't look good.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

I think that 99.99999 % of all folks in a real blind test would not be able to tell a tube amp from a solid state..
So whats the big deal with this new thing.
G.


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## MarkusV (Sep 24, 2009)

GT MAKER
I agree- especially with pedals in front

That said,
I think there is the mystique of tubes, the fact that you can tweak sound with different preamp and power amp tubes and then also - and importantly- the way a good tube amp responds to the player. The symbiosis between attack, guitar and amp response.
So I think we love these things because we feel we have control over something. The same way as I could personally top to bottom service and tweak my 1973 Datsun 

My humble opinion as an enthusiastic but mediocre player

Markus


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Recording I can't tell the difference between tube and modelling.

Live in a room with a drummer, bass player, second guitarist rocking out, I can tell. Tube punches though. Anything else is washed out.

If they can solve that problem count me in as I love the versatility of modelling.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Guncho said:


> Live in a room with a drummer, bass player, second guitarist rocking out, I can tell. Tube punches though. Anything else is washed out.



And yet artists like B.B. King, Ronnie Montrose, and others managed to play live with solid state amps.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

I love my gear as much as the next guy, but I will always be a "what-is-the-artist-trying-to-say" kind of guy. 

Was it tube? Solid state? Digital? Who cares? 

Was it Fender? Gibson? Fury? Secondary. 

Made in Canada? USA? Asia? Geography, not music.

I have some of it all, and it's all useful. And fun. What prejudices I do have are based on *nostalgia* more than anything else. So if I hafta choose: Tubes, analog, heavy, messy.

Just sayin'.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

GTmaker said:


> I think that 99.99999 % of all folks in a real blind test would not be able to tell a tube amp from a solid state..
> So whats the big deal with this new thing.
> G.



AC/DC recorded a couple of songs on their _Black Ice_ album using recording software. I would challenge anyone to figure out which songs were recorded that way without using the internet to look it up.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

Guncho said:


> Recording I can't tell the difference between tube and modelling.
> 
> Live in a room with a drummer, bass player, second guitarist rocking out, I can tell. Tube punches though. Anything else is washed out.
> 
> If they can solve that problem count me in as I love the versatility of modelling.


Try telling that to John Fogerty and CCR.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Budda said:


> I'm curious to see what happens to the guitar world once the people born between 1940-1970 aren't here anymore. They are the ones who still have a big pull on the market, and once the '90's kids are 65 what will we see? I'm wondering what companies are out there playing the long game.


Good point, I think. Fretted instruments will never go away. Keyed instruments will never go away. Wind instruments will never go away. Percussion will never go away. 

Amplification. Ditto. In all its forms? Well, the history of musical instruments suggests that what sounds good today, sounds good tomorrow...

One guy wants modelling on an iPad, another guy wants a Stradivarius. 

One guy wants a Tesla, another guy wants a Model T.

I have discarded many items that I thought had seen their day, that are now desirable again. Check the current price of a Roland TB-303 bass sequencer. Lol. Sorry I dropped that mofo for nothing!


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

Don't get me wrong. SS (including modellers) sound "ok", but they're missing something. I call it "presence". Not the dial on some amps, but a feeling. Maybe an engineer can explain it. Maybe it's just the rounded sine wave. I have a Bandit, Mustang, iRig etc and they all sound "ok" but none give me goose bumps like when I flip off the standby and play a chord on my Traynor, Orange, Marshall, THD etc. When SS can mimick that feeling it will be time to sell the tubes. I don't play in a band I just play in my basement. A modeller makes sense for me. Just not there yet.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

BSTheTech said:


> Don't get me wrong. SS (including modellers) sound "ok", but they're missing something. I call it "presence". Not the dial on some amps, but a feeling. Maybe an engineer can explain it. Maybe it's just the rounded sine wave. I have a Bandit, Mustang, iRig etc and they all sound "ok" but none give me goose bumps like when I flip off the standby and play a chord on my Traynor, Orange, Marshall, THD etc. When SS can mimick that feeling it will be time to sell the tubes. I don't play in a band I just play in my basement. A modeller makes sense for me. Just not there yet.


Have you tried a Helix or an Amplifire? They are modellers, not solid state amps, and I've found them to sound really, really good. I haven't been able to try a Kemper or Fractal yet, but those are supposedly amazing.


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

jdto said:


> Have you tried a Helix or an Amplifire? They are modellers, not solid state amps, and I've found them to sound really, really good. I haven't been able to try a Kemper or Fractal yet, but those are supposedly amazing.


I have not. They are on the list. Heard good things. Limited access here on the Island.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

BSTheTech said:


> I have not. They are on the list. Heard good things. Limited access here on the Island.


I hear you. I had a Helix, which was amazing, but a bit overwhelming for me at the time. I moved it on and now have the Amplifire 3, as well as the Ampli-Firebox. The 3 gets the most use and I sort of bought the pedal version on a whim. The 3 sounds good with headphones, through my monitors or through my XiTone FRFR 12" cab, which is designed for guitar modelling amps. I'm impressed with the sound and it's kept up well at the last two Riff Wrath jams.

The pedal version should be fun, but I haven't dug into the editing software yet. I'll likely pass a few patches from the 3 to the pedal once I fix my computer. I've been procrastinating on that front.

I'm by no means a good or experienced player, but I like the sounds I get out of my modelling setup. My new Marshall sounds great when I can turn it up a bit and it sounds decent at TV volume, but the AF does a fine job of emulating several different amps. When I get the urge, I can play a convincing-sounding Bassman, AC30, Deluxe, Plexi or something else just by turning the dial. I can't say whether it sounds exactly like those amps I listed, but it gets close enough for me.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

capnjim said:


> Try telling that to John Fogerty and CCR.



Yeah I forgot about them.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

jdto said:


> When I get the urge, I can play a convincing-sounding Bassman, AC30, Deluxe, Plexi or something else just by turning the dial. I can't say whether it sounds exactly like those amps I listed, but it gets close enough for me.



That is what makes modellers so tempting for me, but I am not 100% ready to take the plunge yet. Part of that is that these things are so overwhelming in terms of options, which one to get, etc. If I did make the switch I figure I could sell my Marshall for enough money to get me into a decent modeller at used prices.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

colchar said:


> That is what makes modellers so tempting for me, but I am not 100% ready to take the plunge yet. Part of that is that these things are so overwhelming in terms of options, which one to get, etc. If I did make the switch I figure I could sell my Marshall for enough money to get me into a decent modeller at used prices.


I find, in terms of sound, the Amplifire is where I found good price/tone ratio. I found it sounded as good (not exactly the same, but as good) as my Helix. It doesn't have all the features of the Helix and, if I were gigging or something where I wanted a bunch of different patches and effects in a very robust platform, I'd likely have kept the Helix. That said, the Amplifire 3 gets me a lot of the blues and classic rock sounds I like to hear and I could even run my acoustic through it if I needed to. It has a headphone out as well as XLR out for my monitors or FRFR cab. I'm more than pleased with it and the price was much less than the Helix (enough that I was able to get it and the FRFR cab for less than just what the Helix would cost). You could probably find a used one out there. Guys sell them on the Facebook group and I've seen them pop up occasionally in other places. My one complaint about it is with the headphone jack being a bit flimsy. I've added an extender that I've taped to the side of the unit so that the jack doesn't get messed up.

But for sound, after not a TON of tweaking, I'm pleased.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

For LIVE!!!! non metal rock like Pearl Jam, Tragically Hip guitar, etc only tubes cut it.

Studio anything goes.

One day I hope that changes but I don't think it has yet.


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## capnjim (Aug 19, 2011)

That day came and went in the 80's.

Marshall 5210 / JCM800 | Amplificateurs et pédales | Ville de Montréal | Kijiji


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

jb welder said:


> Does this look like a tube to anybody? Getting rid of all that high voltage kind of takes the fun out of it, no?


Kinda yeah actually - I can see grids and plates. It is weird that it's not octal or 9 pin mini but that's just the package format.

What be cool to see if if they glow or if the low voltage is too low for that (can you use them to backlight a display for example... I mean not just for that but if you have them in the audio path can you 2 birds it).


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Guncho said:


> For LIVE!!!! non metal rock like Pearl Jam, Tragically Hip guitar, etc only tubes cut it.
> 
> Studio anything goes.
> 
> What day I hope that changes but I don't think it has yet.


It would appear that some very accomplished artists disagree with you:

Fractal Audio Systems Artists using the Axe-Fx II Guitar Processor, Ultra, Axe-Fx, MFC-101
Kemper Amps | Artist Gallery


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Guncho said:


> For LIVE!!!! non metal rock like Pearl Jam, Tragically Hip guitar, etc only tubes cut it.


Ronnie Montrose proved that to be false.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

jdto said:


> I find, in terms of sound, the Amplifire is where I found good price/tone ratio. I found it sounded as good (not exactly the same, but as good) as my Helix. It doesn't have all the features of the Helix and, if I were gigging or something where I wanted a bunch of different patches and effects in a very robust platform, I'd likely have kept the Helix. That said, the Amplifire 3 gets me a lot of the blues and classic rock sounds I like to hear and I could even run my acoustic through it if I needed to. It has a headphone out as well as XLR out for my monitors or FRFR cab. I'm more than pleased with it and the price was much less than the Helix (enough that I was able to get it and the FRFR cab for less than just what the Helix would cost). You could probably find a used one out there. Guys sell them on the Facebook group and I've seen them pop up occasionally in other places. My one complaint about it is with the headphone jack being a bit flimsy. I've added an extender that I've taped to the side of the unit so that the jack doesn't get messed up.
> 
> But for sound, after not a TON of tweaking, I'm pleased.


One of the units that intrigues me is the Eleven Rack, which can be had for good prices used even through L&M.

Because I have noise induced hearing loss even my acoustic can sometimes affect my ears. A modelling unit would allow me to get cranked tones at TV volumes. Being able to get that sound while preserving my hearing is _very_ appealing.

Far too many demos are nothing more than high gain stuff, but this has some other sounds:


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Lots of likes on other forums (forae?)

Rave endorsements for Pritchard, in the past. Retired now, I think.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

If a carpenter came to install a door on my house, I wouldn't care what kind of saw or hammer or screwdriver he used. But I would care if the door didn't work.

I don't record at home. Perhaps a modeler would be ideal for that, but that isn't my use. 

For live, I prefer to have a couple of different tube amps - because that's what I enjoy. I don't expect the audience to care what tools I use, but if they don't like 'the door I built', perhaps I would evaluate my tools and skillset. I think I build 'a functional door' because of the tools I choose but I don't expect anyone else to give a rat's ass. I do it for me because I like it. Don't know why, I don't even feel the need to evaluated it, I just use what I like. I hope the customers just 'enjoy the door'.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

High/Deaf said:


> If a carpenter came to install a door on my house, I wouldn't care what kind of saw or hammer or screwdriver he used. But I would care if the door didn't work.
> 
> I don't record at home. Perhaps a modeler would be ideal for that, but that isn't my use.
> 
> For live, I prefer to have a couple of different tube amps - because that's what I enjoy. I don't expect the audience to care what tools I use, but if they don't like 'the door I built', perhaps I would evaluate my tools and skillset. I think I build 'a functional door' because of the tools I choose but I don't expect anyone else to give a rat's ass. I do it for me because I like it. Don't know why, I don't even feel the need to evaluated it, I just use what I like. I hope the customers just 'enjoy the door'.


Very well said. You have to like your tools to get the best out of them. I like low watt tube amps cranked as loud as they'll go without hurting my ears. If others don't like that sound then they are welcome to use their preferred tool. It's not about which is best. It is about which is best suited to you or me. I sometimes jam with a guy who uses a cheap Squire Starcaster and a Roland Cube with an eight inch speaker. He sounds fantastic. Me on his gear, not so much. It just doesn't sound like me so I have a hard time playing. A couple of weeks ago a guy showed up at a bar jam with a beat up old strat and a Line 6 Spider. He wanted to play by himself. I almost left when he was tuning up because it sounded so awful. Once he got into it he was awesome. He was just wailing away turning tuners up and down, pressing who knows what on his foot controller and screeching into the mic. The Line 6 and that strat were his tools and he knew how to use them. It may not have been my cup of tea but it was his and he was good at it. He had the right tools for his sound.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Kinda yeah actually - I can see grids and plates. It is weird that it's not octal or 9 pin mini but that's just the package format.
> 
> What be cool to see if if they glow or if the low voltage is too low for that (can you use them to backlight a display for example... I mean not just for that but if you have them in the audio path can you 2 birds it).


As far as I know, they should be usable for light as they are fluorescent display tubes.
I just don't get why anyone is getting on board with these nutubes for being viable as tubes. They're mounted inside where they don't glow or give off heat like tubes. They're not socketed, so no rolling or trying out different variations or brands. 
The general consensus on this forum and among most tube aficionados is that the desired tube sound is the _power amp _section at the verge of break-up (or beyond). Well, the nutube won't deliver any power and at best will only work like a preamp tube. So, again we're at the point where we still need a tube power amp. In that case, I'm sure many would prefer a modelling preamp mated to a tube power amp.
From what I can see, the best place for these Korg products will be in Korg keyboards. There it kind of makes a bit of sense.


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## Guest (Oct 18, 2017)

capnjim said:


> That day came and went in the 80's.


I still have my 5275 which is my go to.
(google pic)


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

jb welder said:


> As far as I know, they should be usable for light as they are fluorescent display tubes.


Yeah, that's what I thought, but you never know - can't find any pics of them powered up




jb welder said:


> I just don't get why anyone is getting on board with these nutubes for being viable as tubes. They're mounted inside where they don't glow or give off heat like tubes. They're not socketed, so no rolling or trying out different variations or brands.


Wait, why can't they be socketted (yes that would be stupid - do they , theoretically, not wear out like regular tubes? That would be a big selling point that you'd think they'd mention). Maybe Vox isn't using sockets in their products (IDk, assuming you're correct), but someone else (DIYer or otherwise) could make sockets out of, for example, single line mil max (like DIY pedal builders already do for random things like nonstandard IC chips and TO8 style transistors). I see no reason that wouldn't work, or why someone can't start making proper fitted/dedicated sockets. Also they could be mounted anywhere one wants (again, regardless of what vox is doing with that one product).



jb welder said:


> The general consensus on this forum and among most tube aficionados is that the desired tube sound is the _power amp _section at the verge of break-up (or beyond). Well, the nutube won't deliver any power and at best will only work like a preamp tube. So, again we're at the point where we still need a tube power amp. In that case, I'm sure many would prefer a modelling preamp mated to a tube power amp.


Agreed, but a) they're workin on it; that's the next step and they acknowledge that b) Musicman tried that and the market did not actually agree. Even now, in retrospect, with people like us saying that's the right way to make a hybrid amp - ss front end and tube power - those MM amps are better regarded then before, but still not incredibly desirable (one of the best deals out there on amps, IMHO, if you're on a budget). I have no problem, in theory - I'd give it a shot, with an amp with nutube front end and trad tube power. Or further, think outside of the guitar amp box - mic preamps (though personally I like pentodes there, but I'd try it - worst case pull a Telefunken and just cascade more gain stages)... or get back in the guitar box and DIY dirt pedals/preamps without either starved plates or ridiculous power supplies (for a pedal) or using these new style super fast switch mode chips (which have been a huge advance in tube pedal miniaturisation, but I haven't tried one so no idea how well that really works).

---

On another note - both in this thread and others, I really think that the distinction has to be made between ss amps and modelers. Modelers use ss amps, but not all ss amps are modelers ...though most do have some dirt mode, which is technically based on/inspired by tube OD but rarely (historically) considered even close to realistic so much as a (variably) useful approximation... most modern ss amps do have some form of modeling even if a one trick pony like a Blues Cube vs all-the-amps-in-a-box like a Kemper or Pod).

Personally I find the opposite to @Guncho - tube amps are muddier; solid state tends to be edgier and cut through better (but I don't like that edge; I love the thick juicy tones a tube amp will give; or the harsh-free sparkle on the other end of the spectrum). That said there are some ss amps I really like, at least for some applications. The Gibson L5 is amazing (BB King used one - he was referenced as a ss amp user above) and some of the Sunn ss stuff (Alpha/Beta series era) with CMOS dirt fx can be pretty cool too (at least for punk-spectrum stuff - see King Buzzo from the Melvins, back in the day). A shitty Peavey bandit sounds great for recording (not loud enough for band jam or live) running a vintage Gibson EB series bass through it (somehow mudbucker + this shitty amp just works). For super metal tones (I'd call it dated to 80s metal, but it is coming around again; the kids are going back to it) ss Randalls are the thing (Dimebag Darrell). They cut better than any tube amp, especially dirty, precisely because they are not as fat; there's a bass cut and upper mid focus to the dirt that tube amps don't do. Don't even get me started on Standel. 1st gen Peavey and Traynor amps (see the Monoblock) are also very well regarded but that's more for bass (though I do see guitarists using them as clean/loud pedal platforms).

Rules of thumb are useful, but we need to be careful that they are actually useful and not simply an out of date stereotype. Tube amps are much more similar in behaviour to each other than solid state, which varies wildly, and now even more so with all this modeling stuff. Yes there are a lot of anemic sounding (as in they don't cut through as Guncho says, and sound flat/lifeless) ss amps from the 80s/90s, but one person's experience (or even our collective experience) with bottom of the barrel stuff before they could afford proper tube goodness is not the whole story - I used to think the same thing when all I had tried were crappy 90s Peaveys, those abused Traynor T series combos that were 80% of the stock in any store on pawn shop alley in the 90s, and Marshall Valvestates... until I tried a good ss amp. That all said, I do prefer tubes in general, but lets not get all defensive (due to some chicken little - they're going away talk) and overstate the point. What will work better for someone will vary by their style and needs, and that's fine.

... on the flip side of the coin, I find the modern Vox AC series sounds like crappy ss stuff to my ears (and maybe it's down to not spending enough time dialing in the EQ, or the speaker not being to my taste). I know it's the voicing (too bright; no girth - again, the speaker can be a large part of this) but I still remember looking behind my friend's AC30something combo and being surprised that it was an all tube amp; had me fooled. Never played a vintage one to be clear - that one in the vid up top sounds waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better (like a tube amp) than any of the modern ones I have heard.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

I had a Peavey, a solid-state front-end is wrong, it sounds nothing like tubes.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Hammerhands said:


> I had a Peavey, a solid-state front-end is wrong, it sounds nothing like tubes.


Its wrong? All these jazz and blues guys will be devastated!


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Hammerhands said:


> I had a Peavey, a solid-state front-end is wrong, it sounds nothing like tubes.


Yep, those 90s and later ss Peaveys do sound horrible, but that's what I was saying: you can't take a budget brand's budget model that tries to mimic tube tone (they advertised as such) but was doomed to failure due to cost restraints and the state of the art at the time, as the example by which to judge all ss premp sections. Also, while I understand the reasons for modelling or mimicing tube tone in preamps, why can't we have a ss amp that just tries to sound good in it's own way (see Standel).

See also the EQD Accupolco Gold - supposed to be a very good ss toneclone of a cranked Sunn Model T. I say that not having tried one myself; I have the real thing (almost; diff model but an all tube Sunn) so never bothered to check one out personally. The few vids I watched sounded promising, but vids are just vids.

The Rec dudes are way ahead of us - they're fine with solid state stuff; their snobbery is between discrete transistors vs cheap IC chips, and even that now is fading as they discriminate between good IC based stuff and not so good.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Just because something doesn't sound like tubes, doesn't mean it sounds bad.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

jdto said:


> Just because something doesn't sound like tubes, doesn't mean it sounds bad.


A friend, big gear snob, visited while I was playing my "travelling" rig. Cheap little guitar and decent SS amp. He was taken by the sound.

"Tubes don't sound better, just different," I suggested.

Next time I went to his house, he had a SS amp in the collection.

Also, let me add another two cents, one of my fave guitarists uses a SS rack preamp into a Mesa power amp. Sounds good to me. Sounds great actually.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)




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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

KapnKrunch said:


> A friend, big gear snob, visited while I was playing my "travelling" rig. Cheap little guitar and decent SS amp. He was taken by the sound.
> one of my fave guitarists uses a SS rack preamp into a Mesa power amp. Sounds good to me. Sounds great actually.


Yes, I bet it does. One of my rig ideas (if I couldn't find a Sunn, which I did) was to use a Gibson L5 preamp (Aion makes a nice PCB you can use to make a pedal format clone of one) into either Peavey or Mesa tube (both are a mono quad section) rack mount power amps (Marshall also made some but stereo and stupid prices). 

The reason why I (and others, here and elsewhere) say that a proper hybrid amp is ss front end and tube power (vs the other way around as is usually done ) is not just because of what the tube power section does (mentioned above) but the fact that ss preamps are more robust and quieter than tube. The example I like to give is that any tube preamp I plug my Gibson EB3 bass into feels like it's choking out (the mudbucker is a whopping 30K +/-2k and a near perfect sine wave of fundamental) but every ss preamp I have plugged it into takes it just fine without copmplaint (see above re Peavey Bandit).


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

These were mid-80s Peavey Heritage amps I was playing.

I thought they were great until I played a Super Reverb, regularly.

After that, it just sounded terrible to my ears, no depth, tiny, cold, noisy.


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Hammerhands said:


> These were mid-80s Peavey Heritage amps I was playing.
> 
> I thought they were great until I played a Super Reverb, regularly.
> 
> After that, it just sounded terrible to my ears, no depth, tiny, cold, noisy.


I have no experience with those. The good solid state Peaveys (e.g. the Mark series - mostly bass and PA heads IIRC) were before that.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

I suspect that any of us, with sufficient time and motivation, can make all of SS, tube, hybrid, and nutube-based amps sound bad. I know I can. I challenge everyone to strive for my level of ability — don’t tell me you can’t.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

LexxM3 said:


> I challenge everyone to strive for my level of ability


I far exceed your level of ability. I can offer lessons if you are interested.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

LexxM3 said:


> I suspect that any of us, with sufficient time and motivation, can make all of SS, tube, hybrid, and nutube-based amps sound bad. I know I can. I challenge everyone to strive for my level of ability — don’t tell me you can’t.


I'm always amazed how much better it sounds when other people play through my amps. Of course they always screw up the settings so it takes me awhile to get them back to normal.


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## Hammertone (Feb 3, 2006)

BSTheTech said:


> I suspect there will be a glut of cheap instruments dumped on the market via estate sales that eventually get binned (collector cars and other collectables too). Millennials are showing they have little interest in "things". Clothes on their back and a couple I-devices and they're cool. The long game doesn't look good.


 IMO, if they ever get some $$$$ in their pockets, they'll get interested.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

LexxM3 said:


> I suspect that any of us, with sufficient time and motivation, can make all of SS, tube, hybrid, and nutube-based amps sound bad.



Shit, that doesn't take either time or motivation. I can accomplish it every damned time I plug in.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Wait, why can't they be socketted (yes that would be stupid - do they , theoretically, not wear out like regular tubes? That would be a big selling point that you'd think they'd mention). Maybe Vox isn't using sockets in their products (IDk, assuming you're correct), but someone else (DIYer or otherwise) could make sockets out of, for example, single line mil max (like DIY pedal builders already do for random things like nonstandard IC chips and TO8 style transistors). I see no reason that wouldn't work, or why someone can't start making proper fitted/dedicated sockets. Also they could be mounted anywhere one wants (again, regardless of what vox is doing with that one product).


Tubes were designed to be limited lifespan and replaceable, and socketed. These are not, and I don't think they would handle more than a couple times in and out of a socket before the pins started breaking off. Also, you would need a tool. They spec a 30,000 hour lifespan, so they are designed for the life of the product. If you have an old vcr or microwave, chances are it has a VFD display. Korg bought out some existing equipment as far as I know, so they are not going to re-tool to some other package.

Anyway, there are sort of 2 conversations going on in this thread. One is SS vs. tube. I'm not commenting on that.
This is about the nutube. My point is that if the _only_ part of a tube amp you are going to use is a variation of a preamp tube, you are not going to get a tube amp.
What does everyone out there consider a Marshall Valvestate (or any other SS amp with a preamp tube thrown in somewhere)?
That's kind of what a nutube will give you. Is it a good representation of a tube amp?


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

You are right JB. I, for one, jumped into the SS vs tube discussion before watching the vid.

So far, for myself, the only valid point I get out of the nutube is the reduced power consumption possibly to be required by European law...

I think the SS discussion just shows that tube technology CAN be replaced if necessary. But
I agree -- it always sounds different in some way.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

jb welder said:


> Anyway, there are sort of 2 conversations going on in this thread. One is SS vs. tube. I'm not commenting on that.
> This is about the nutube. My point is that if the _only_ part of a tube amp you are going to use is a variation of a preamp tube, you are not going to get a tube amp.
> What does everyone out there consider a Marshall Valvestate (or any other SS amp with a preamp tube thrown in somewhere)?
> That's kind of what a nutube will give you. Is it a good representation of a tube amp?


Agree totally. That's one part of the 'tube industry' I'm not much worried about. Preamp tubes don't wear nearly as much as power tubes. Good preamp tubes will last decades and decades. If we need a replacement of something, it isn't preamp tubes. It's power tubes.

I don't see this tech ever being used for power tubes - power tubes need to dissipate some energy as heat, and that takes surface area. And I don't see this ever replacing or being as adopted as existing preamp tube configurations, considering we aren't really running out of preamp tubes any time soon (see first paragraph).

So what's their market? Hybrid amps with one of these in the preamp stage (so they can market it as a tube amp)? A full tube amp with these in the preamp section and traditional power tubes in the power stage (no advantage to that at all)? Pedals, so again they can stamp a big "TUBE DISTORTION!!!" on the front panel?

This strikes me as a pure marketing ploy, trying to get one more new technology in play, in a world that is slowly and inexorably moving away from tubes. The only market for tubes is a reasonable percentage of guitar players and a very small minority of hi-fi enthusiasts. The tube hi-fi guys I know wouldn't touch these with a 100' pole.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> So what's their market? Hybrid amps with one of these in the preamp stage (so they can market it as a tube amp)? A full tube amp with these in the preamp section and traditional power tubes in the power stage (no advantage to that at all)? Pedals, so again they can stamp a big "TUBE DISTORTION!!!" on the front panel?


I think it's a good solution to warm up an all digital Korg keyboard. Or maybe pedals as you say.
It would probably take tens of thousands to build a power amp, so there goes the size advantage.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

The tubes we know well are the very few of thousands of variations, many of which were considered not musical.

It shouldn't surprise anyone if it takes a while to get something good out of new technology.


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