# prs trem or floyd rose



## prvv (May 25, 2006)

What are the differences and which one is better overall?


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## Xanadu (Feb 3, 2006)

a floyd rose is better.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Xanadu said:


> a floyd rose is better.


For what tiype of playing? For example, I can't imagine a Floyd being better than a Fender for surf. But I can see the Floyd definitely winning over PRS or Fender in a dive bombing contest.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

In general the Floyd Rose and derivitive systems are the best designs for tuning stability, regardless of style of play.


Tonally I think a skilled player can get pretty much anything he or she wants out of a FR.


I personally think the FR is one of the most significant developments in the evolution of the electric guitar.


It's a better mousetrap, plain and simple.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

FLOYD ROSE. WHAT ABOUT SUSTAIN????


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## SCREEM (Feb 2, 2006)

floyds are cool for metal and have a dive a couple octaves lower than the rest, but I dont like all that locking stuff and holes in the neck...I will also put my fender tromolo to the pepsi challenge against a floyd, if anyone cares..took alot of tweeking tho evilGuitar:


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## Xanadu (Feb 3, 2006)

SCREEM said:


> floyds are cool for metal and have a dive a couple octaves lower than the rest, but I dont like all that locking stuff and holes in the neck...I will also put my fender tromolo to the pepsi challenge against a floyd, if anyone cares..took alot of tweeking tho evilGuitar:


pepsi challenge?


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## SCREEM (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm just saying the trem on my strat stays in tune perfectly....I can dive the trem to where the srings flop around, release the arm and it's in perfect tune like a floyd. No need for all the locking stuff, honestly. The trem on my Deluxe strat has only 2 pivot posts like a floyd and admitedly stayed in tune very well but not perfect in stock form. I spent probably 10 hours in all of adjustments and tricks to get it totaly stable. Recently I tweeked an older strat with the 6 post trem and after about 2 hours I gave up on getting it perfect, it just wont do it, the tweeks helped alot and it became usable, the owner was ecstatic. If that strat where mine I would probably have spent more time on it, I'm sure I could have goten more stability out of it.

The older 6 pivot strat trems have way more sustain than my 2 pivot deluxe, I'm not sure wich I like best....perfect pitch with less sustain or great sustain and tuning problems....ugh!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I have heard the claim about a "tweaked" Fender style trem having similar tuning stability to a Floyd Rose.


Having tried a number of these tweaked Strats, I have yet to see this claim verified. Generally with normal playing (not even USING the trem) a standard trem will be out by the end of the set. When I check my locking guitars after a set they're almost "dead nuts" in tune.

Regardless of how much tweaking, how many potions and lotions you apply to the nut and so on, I just don't buy it.


Oh and that old chestnut about Floyds being ok for metal but nothing else is just nonsense.


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## SCREEM (Feb 2, 2006)

I posted a link on the forum where someone gets into details on improving strat trem stability, that person also adds a link to a video that goes into further details...folowing those ideas my strat stays in tune perfectly no matter how much wanking I do. I also realize that some ppl hate strats with a passion because of the stability issue and a may as well be trying to convince them that shyte don't stink....no really, here smell it!!! :zzz: 

here is what i did:

step one: adjust the spring claw tension so there is more tention on the base side, you will need to retune to pitch several times and tweek for the amount of floatyou like. This tweek is the biggest factor in improving the tuning stability and I think it should be done to all trem's even floyds. It just makes sence to have pressure evenly distributed on the pivot posts even if it's only to prevent imature wear on on the trem. 










step two: use some kind of lubricant on the nut, string tree(if you have the 6 pivot trem, do not use the string tree for the wound strings) and pivots. I use phil woods waterproof bearing grease(the green stuff) its better than oil or pencil lead but it dries in a week and has to be re-applyed often.










step three: this tweek is the final step that garantees floyd like wanking. Use a G string and tie it around the saddles to clamp them together. this is a PITA the sring kept breaking on me from over tightening, eventually I got it right.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

" I also realize that some ppl hate strats with a passion because of the stability issue and a may as well be trying to convince them that shyte don't stink....no really, here smell it!!! "


Actually I love Strats. I always keep one in my active guitars. 


The trems suck though. All of the tweaks you describe above are pretty much common knowledge and yes, if you do these things you will difinitely improve the stability of a standard Strat trem.

I still maintain that it will not approach the bullet proof tuning stability of a properly installed and set up FR.

Plus, people are always complaining about the "hassle" of a FR. Well, it's nowhere near the hassle of all the tricks and manipulations you go through with your strat trem.

I'll go one step further. Even a hard tail won't stay in tune like a FR will.


People seem to have a real predjudice and closed mind about FR bridges.


I rarely use mine for dive bombs. For the most part it's for vibrato on chords or harmonic intervals. Even if I don't take the bar out of the case, it stays in tune better than ANY guitar without a double locking system.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Trem stability is based on the setup of the guitar and the trem. Alot of guys use Fender trems, and Wilkensons and totally abuse them and never have tuning problems. The Floyd and PRS trems are just a couple of the different types of trems available. They are based on the same tech really, with very little differences, and they dont differ from the Fender design much at all, when compared to much higher tech trem designs that have come out over the past 25 years. It all comes down to what you are used to. It also comes down to style too, alot of people use the trem differently than other people, and that style difference usually will contribute to which trem they prefer. To me the expert of the trem has always been Satch. When he was a hippy guitar teacher in da Bay, one of his lessons was on trem use. It went something like this; Put your hand on the bar. Turn counter clock wise. Put bar in case. Close case...........
Use what you like, not what other people tell you to like..............


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## SCREEM (Feb 2, 2006)

I made a vid, but the sound is not in sync for me once uploaded to youtube...oh well, please excuse the ferocious wanking  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-WaE4-4Or8


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## SCREEM (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm not a floyd equiped guitar hater, just making a point that strat trems can have fun too


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## SCREEM (Feb 2, 2006)

Milkman said:


> " I also realize that some ppl hate strats with a passion because of the stability issue and a may as well be trying to convince them that shyte don't stink....no really, here smell it!!! "
> 
> 
> Actually I love Strats. I always keep one in my active guitars.
> ...


my comment on shyte don't stink was not directed to anyone here per say MilkMan just alot of ppl hate them because of the trem issue, you seem to me like a verry knoledgable guy and i wanted to show a strat trem that can match a floyd in tuning stability is all :rockon2: It's hilarious to see ppl play my strat and examine it like there is some voodoo hidden somewhere 

Yes a floyd is the most stable trem system out there period. I will never argue that.


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## imbackagain2 (Feb 6, 2006)

Here is my prs trem. I like it but if you want the metal crazy ass whammy i reccomend the floyd. The prs is comparable to the strat style trem but it has a locking mechanism so the strings stay in tune.


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## rippinglickfest (Jan 1, 2006)

*Floyd Rose*

The "Original' Floyds are a little brash sounding to my ears.....I have a Hamer Chaparall loaded with one and the sustain is not as good as the Schaller made for Hamer Floyds which are made of thicker steel on the baseplate. I also have a Malmsteen with a standard Fender trem and as long as I keep the nut lubed its fine (not perfect) . For absolute tuning stability you cant beat a Floyd Rose.....ugly and cumbersome as it is.

Ray


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## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

I have a washburn wonderbar on one of my flying v's and I love it. It stays in tune and works flawlessly. I also have a older Kahler Floyd style on an old BC Rich of mine that works incredibly well and stay in tune great. 

My one strat has a roller nut and I've tweaked the spring setup up (6 screw trem) and it stays in tune very well. I run four springs on the trems I have that use springs and I have found that this helps as well. My second strat is pretty much stock except I use a dry graphite to lubricate the nut and it stays in tune almost as well as the rest of them.

I don't currently have a true Floyd on anything but have owned 4 guitars in the past that did have them. For me it was about a 50/50 shot. Two stayed in tune excellent and 2 would still go out of tune no matter what I seemed to do to them. 

Another question is what gauge of strings are people using? From personal experience and talking to other players, lighter strings are sometimes the culprits as well as they seem to stretch more. I play pretty much 10-52 on my guitars (one strat has 11's) and they stay good. I went back to 9's to try them again and found on my strat that tuning became an issue.

From a sustain standpoint I know the general thought is the strat trem sustains better, but from my personal experience I would argue that. My BC Rich sustains till the cows come home.


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## Clypher (Jan 5, 2007)

A floyd is an awesome tool, and I wouldn't but any other kind of trem on any guitar I own.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

SCREEM said:


> I'm just saying the trem on my strat stays in tune perfectly....I can dive the trem to where the srings flop around, release the arm and it's in perfect tune like a floyd. No need for all the locking stuff, honestly. The trem on my Deluxe strat has only 2 pivot posts like a floyd and admitedly stayed in tune very well but not perfect in stock form. I spent probably 10 hours in all of adjustments and tricks to get it totaly stable. Recently I tweeked an older strat with the 6 post trem and after about 2 hours I gave up on getting it perfect, it just wont do it, the tweeks helped alot and it became usable, the owner was ecstatic. If that strat where mine I would probably have spent more time on it, I'm sure I could have goten more stability out of it.
> 
> The older 6 pivot strat trems have way more sustain than my 2 pivot deluxe, I'm not sure wich I like best....perfect pitch with less sustain or great sustain and tuning problems....ugh!


Sorry, I don't believe you. If you have the answer for keeping a Strat trem in tune after divebombing, you would be selling that info but most likely Eddie would have figured it out first. 

Floyd Rose is the bomb! :rockon2:


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## ILUVMYJP7 (Jan 1, 2007)

Milkman said:


> In general the Floyd Rose and derivitive systems are the best designs for tuning stability, regardless of style of play.
> 
> 
> Tonally I think a skilled player can get pretty much anything he or she wants out of a FR.
> ...



I disagree, no trem can match the stability, agility, and quality of a Petrucci Ernie Ball Music Man trem.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

ILUVMYJP7 said:


> I disagree, no trem can match the stability, agility, and quality of a Petrucci Ernie Ball Music Man trem.


Well this is great to hear!!! I will be ordering a Petrucci in the next month or two!!!!! I need a tremolo that will really hold out like a floyd rose. Are you 100% serious? I'm a big EVH/Vai fan so this would be helpfull info!! :banana:


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## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

The PRS trem is new to me I've been playing Floy Rose trems since 1983. 

I just recently purchased a CE 22 with trem. I find the tuning stability very good, tone is not an issue... great tone, very smooth feel along the path of travel, pull up a half step tone by factory setup... thats cool I like my FR trems that way too. Does not dive bomb like a FR but how many dive bombs is a guy gonna do anyways and if so thats the least of my worries when it comes to criteria for scrutinizing trem performance. 

One thing I must say is a pain is adjusting the height of the trem base. You need to take tension off the bridge and then turn all the screws exaclty the same amount. This is especially annoying if you like ultra low action because due to the factory settings of the trem you will likely not get enough adjustment from the saddles alone and you will have to do the trem base height adjustment. Aparently if it is done wrong you can permanently damage and possibly destruy the screw posts.
Fortunatly for me I was able to adjust my action to the way I like it from the saddles alone.

Read on... http://www.prsguitars.com/csc/bridges.html

Has anyone had to do this? Did you do it yourself or have a tek do it?

One final thing. Traditional strat trems can be set up to operate fine and I like the tone from that style of trem. However the Music Man traditional trem is my fav in that category. It has more mass and so much better transfer of energy... IMHO

Khing


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## ILUVMYJP7 (Jan 1, 2007)

ne1roc said:


> Well this is great to hear!!! I will be ordering a Petrucci in the next month or two!!!!! I need a tremolo that will really hold out like a floyd rose. Are you 100% serious? I'm a big EVH/Vai fan so this would be helpfull info!! :banana:


Dude first off congrats for make what I consider the best decision any man can make. Not only are you buying what I consider to be the best guitar (well if it was a seven it would be the best so second best :tongue: ) but you are also going to be part of a family that takes care of their customers. You are set for life. I've bought many used EBMM guitars and any parts I needed, I simply called customer service and, bang there it was in the mail free. Make sure you join the forums over there as well

http://www.ernieball.com/forums/

as they will be friendly and very helpful should you need it.

Now onto the guitar. Forget everything you know about the Floyd, the Petrucci is way better. I have an EBMM JP7 and a Wayne Custome 7 string, hand made by Wayne Charvel, while I love both guitars, comparing the trems is like comparing night and day. I will never buy another Floyd equipped guitar again. Changing strings, intonating and tuning on a FLoyd is a pain in the butt, however on the Petrucci, it's like making love on a beech, with the waves brushing up against you...HEAVEN. Changeing strings with the locking tuners takes about a couple of minutes, and once those strings are stretched, and the tuners locked, that guitar will hold its tune, even during massive whammy bar acrobatics. Now let's say you want to intonate this baby, simply turn the set screw, there's no special tools required and no need to loosen the string, like on the Floyd. Again should you need to set the guitar up, well the Petrucci trem can be set to follow the exact radius of the fretboard,do to its individual saddle heoght adjustments, unlike MOST Floyds which have to lay flat. Finally, should the neck require some fine tuning, the EBMMs come with a unique feature that no other guitar has, the truss wheel adjustment at the base of the neck, which is easy to turn and requires no special tool, no plate removal nor neck removal.

Hey ask yourself, what other company has the owner posting on the forums asking members for input, plus showing prototypes to the members...I can go on and on.

Here is a video of demonstrating its tuning stability:

http://s22.photobucket.com/albums/b309/NorrinRadd1/?action=view&current=demo.flv

Look how compact it is:


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

> Changing strings, intonating and tuning on a FLoyd is a pain in the butt, however on the Petrucci, it's like making love on a beech, with the waves brushing up against you...HEAVEN.


 Ha, thats funny!

I was originally going for the 7 string but after trying one out, I realized I have have enough problems with 6 strings. Is the piezo equipt trem the same? Is that what you have?


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## ILUVMYJP7 (Jan 1, 2007)

ne1roc said:


> Ha, thats funny!
> 
> I was originally going for the 7 string but after trying one out, I realized I have have enough problems with 6 strings. Is the piezo equipt trem the same? Is that what you have?


No I wish I had the piezo, perhaps when I save up enough my next one will be one with the piezo, and yes the two bridges are exactly the same except for the piezo. Have you seen the new prototype?


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## SCREEM (Feb 2, 2006)

thats a nice trem, looks like it would stay in tune better than a PRS trem because of the 2 pivot system. What makes the prs trem stay in tune better thatn a vintage strat trem is the sides of the trem not allowing the saddles to move from side to side, tying a b string around the saddles of a vintage strat trem will bring it up to prs stability, assuming the nut and string trees are well setup.

This petrucci bridge must have a channel under the saddles to keep the from moving. a 2 pivot strat trem with tied saddles will hold its tune just as good.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ILUVMYJP7 said:


> Dude first off congrats for make what I consider the best decision any man can make. Not only are you buying what I consider to be the best guitar (well if it was a seven it would be the best so second best :tongue: ) but you are also going to be part of a family that takes care of their customers. You are set for life. I've bought many used EBMM guitars and any parts I needed, I simply called customer service and, bang there it was in the mail free. Make sure you join the forums over there as well
> 
> http://www.ernieball.com/forums/
> 
> ...



C'mon man. This is a nice system but I've picked one up and played it. To say this bridge holds a tune like a FR is just plain silly.

Also it's more limited in terms of raising the pitch.


FR is still supreme in my opinion. Even the Ibanez Edge systems pale by comparison.

As for all the whining about how hard it is to change strings and intonate a FR, what hogwash.

How about fifteen minutes for a complete string change and a half an hour for an intonation (Ooooo, once a year I have to spend an extra few minutes to tweak my intonation)?

Anything with a conventional nut is technically inferior to a FR.


If you don't like FRs (it's trendy to bash them I suppose) OK, but making claims that EB, MM, PRS or Wilkenson has created a better system is laughable to me.


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## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

I agree with Iluvmyjp7. Ernie Ball music man is simply put one of the best guitars money can buyand the customer support is absolutly second to none. I own a Silhouete Special M.I.A.C 26 of 30. Read the guest book submission Brian Ball wrote... 

http://pub30.bravenet.com/guestbook/2527020227/4

I've talked with Brian since then. He is very approachable... the Music man team is incredible.

As for the amount of time it takes to do work on a FR yeah it's longer but if like Milkman you do it once a year then who cares but if you are like myself and intonate on every string change then FR's are a pain in the ass. Why do I intonate on every string change... becasue no two sets of strings are alike. Even if you use good quality strings the intonation can be out a little and I hear it. It drives me crazy when I'm out of intonation because it takes a bench top fix ( with the FR ) unliike being out of tune which can be fixed on the fly.

Good luck with the new Petrucci!

Khing


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

KHINGPYNN said:


> I agree with Iluvmyjp7. Ernie Ball music man is simply put one of the best guitars money can buyand the customer support is absolutly second to none. I own a Silhouete Special M.I.A.C 26 of 30. Read the guest book submission Brian Ball wrote...
> 
> http://pub30.bravenet.com/guestbook/2527020227/4
> 
> ...




How many people intonate during EVERY string change?


Sorry man, but that's NUTS!!


There will be extreme cases where a set of strings is noticeably different than others of the same brand and gauge, but I have many things to consider in terms of the overall sound of both the guitars and the band. If you applied this level of attention to every important element of your music, you'd never emerge from the basement.


For the record, I do check my intonation every time I change strings. It takes a couple of seconds per string and if it needed adjustment I would simply do it. Also in case I haven't mentioned this, I change my strings every two weeks or two gigs, whichever comes first.



I'm not knocking the MM system, just pointing out that many of the complaints about FRs are insignificant and well, irelevent.


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## ILUVMYJP7 (Jan 1, 2007)

Milkman said:


> How many people intonate during EVERY string change?
> 
> 
> Sorry man, but that's NUTS!!
> ...



Again it all boils down to preference, however you have to admit that, in terms of design, there is an obvious difference...come on admit it. There's even a spot to rest your palm, whereas the Floyds had to come up with additional hardware to compete. The EBMM JP trem takes all of the best functions and combined them into one unique package. Can you adjust the individual saddle heights on your Floyd? I have my EBMM JP7 adjusted to 1/32' and that's on the Low B. With my Floyd equipped guitar, I cannot do that unless I go out and purchase shims, and then that would require a lot of work. We are not bashing, we are just stating the obvious. The Floyd was king of the 80's but what have they done to improve since then? The EBMM JP trem is a far superior design, and there's nothing no one can say to convince me otherwise. I have played most of the different trems out there, and there is no comparison, when one includes ALL of the benefits that come with EBMM JP trem.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Certainly a subject for debate. I had an Ibenez RG570 that had the LoPro Edge system on it and once set, it was near impossible to knock it out of tune. I have not owned a Music Man so can't comment on that one. I have had many FR equiped guitars and most of them were very good as well. Set-up when I first started to play was a major hassle. But over the years you pick up little tricks here and there to make the string changes and set-up a lot faster.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ILUVMYJP7 said:


> Again it all boils down to preference, however you have to admit that, in terms of design, there is an obvious difference...come on admit it. There's even a spot to rest your palm, whereas the Floyds had to come up with additional hardware to compete. The EBMM JP trem takes all of the best functions and combined them into one unique package. Can you adjust the individual saddle heights on your Floyd? I have my EBMM JP7 adjusted to 1/32' and that's on the Low B. With my Floyd equipped guitar, I cannot do that unless I go out and purchase shims, and then that would require a lot of work. We are not bashing, we are just stating the obvious. The Floyd was king of the 80's but what have they done to improve since then? The EBMM JP trem is a far superior design, and there's nothing no one can say to convince me otherwise. I have played most of the different trems out there, and there is no comparison, when one includes ALL of the benefits that come with EBMM JP trem.



Again, smoke and mirrors. I palm mute with ease on my FRs. It's a simple matter of learning to lighten up on the pressure and I don't give it a second thought.

Individual string height adjustment? Never found this to be a problem with FRs.

Go back and listen to the video posted earlier demonstrating the MM.

Hear that clunking?


If that doesn't bother you ok, but my FRs don't make that kind of noise no matter WHAT I do to them.

Perhaps you're more of a technically oriented player than I am but again, having tried both systems, the FR sounds, plays and feels significanty better to me.

When you say something like "there's nothing you can say to convince me otherwise" there's not much point in discussing it further.


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## ILUVMYJP7 (Jan 1, 2007)

Milkman said:


> When you say something like "there's nothing you can say to convince me otherwise" there's not much point in discussing it further.


You got that right, only because I have played, owned, operated, and worked on the different choices. Why the hell would I want to go back to a Floyd?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ILUVMYJP7 said:


> You got that right, only because I have played, owned, operated, and worked on the different choices. Why the hell would I want to go back to a Floyd?



Because it's better, and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise?


Kidding of course.

The day I play a better system than an original FR, I'll buy it.


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## ILUVMYJP7 (Jan 1, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Because it's better, and nothing you can say will convince me otherwise?
> 
> 
> Kidding of course.
> ...


As long as we are happy, that's all that counts!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ILUVMYJP7 said:


> As long as we are happy, that's all that counts!


Exactly right.

I wouldn't state that the FR is the best, only that it is the best so far for my tastes.


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## ILUVMYJP7 (Jan 1, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Exactly right.
> 
> I wouldn't state that the FR is the best, only that it is the best so far for my tastes.


Well I was thinking about it a while back and they both definately have their pros and cons...I mean one downside of the EBMM JP trem is that you have to like the JP to have one, and unfortunately it's not for everyone, whereas the Floyd and it's licensee's can be found on all sorts of models. There I bet you'd never expected that response now did you...


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## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

Milkman said...



> How many people intonate during EVERY string change?
> 
> 
> Sorry man, but that's NUTS!!
> ...


I'm not sure if I'm underdstanding your post Milkman... what"s nuts?

I'm talking about intonating on every string change... 



> As for the amount of time it takes to do work on a FR yeah it's longer but if like Milkman you do it once a year then who cares but if you are like myself and intonate on every string change then FR's are a pain in the ass. Why do I intonate on every string change... becasue no two sets of strings are alike. Even if you use good quality strings the intonation can be out a little and I hear it. It drives me crazy when I'm out of intonation because it takes a bench top fix ( with the FR ) unliike being out of tune which can be fixed on the fly.


I said intonation can be out a little. Thats why I intonate at every string change... maybe it's out and requires adjustment... maybe it's not and requires no adjustment. Surely you will agree that if it is out and out enough to make things sound bad then a FR system is not a simple system to intonate while standing up, guitar strapped on, in between songs or even sets. With a Fender sync trem like on a Strat or a Stop tail piece like on a Les paul for example a guy can do a quick intonation adjustment on the fly in between songs with a tuner and a small phillips screwdriver. 

Then there is this...


> If you applied this level of attention to every important element of your music, you'd never emerge from the basement.


And this...


> For the record, I do check my intonation every time I change strings


And this...


> (Ooooo, once a year I have to spend an extra few minutes to tweak my intonation)?


So as you can see I'm not sure what's nuts. Are we slinging mud here Bro or what? If so thats a shame... no need for that. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions but honestly I find some of your comments contradictory... so please clarify.

FR systems are great I've been using them for quite some time but they do have their common shrotfalls and like any system they are not perfect. Ask any Tekky who does it for a living... intonating a FR is a pain in the ASS... plain and simple. A restring takes more time than most other systems. As for the palm muting thing... I have never had a problem with the FR system, for tuning, pitch going sharp or anything. I really like the FR system... some guys complain that they reck tone... I tend to like the tones I get from my guitars that have FR systems... but yeah there is a noticable difference in tone. I also find that the overseas licenced FR systems do not sound as good as the origional spec models by Schaller. The cheaper overseas FR systems tend to have a thinner base plate that is not made of the same grade of alloy as say the origional FR or the Schaller which has a thicker Bell Brass base plate.

Khing


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

I went to The Arts Music Store where I will be purchasing my JPMM. Talking to one of the guys there who has two JP's, and is a JP mega fan, his opinion is, while the JP trem is awesome and does everything he needs it to do, he feels that nothing holds it's tuning like an FR. 

Which trem is better is a matter of personal taste. Like every other piece of gear that exists for us guitarist!

:rockon:


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## faracaster (Mar 9, 2006)

I firmly believe it is all personal taste.
All the above stated trems can be really great. It comes down to preference.
I have had many stock Fender trems that stayed in tune perfectly. Vintage and otherwise. I mean there was some adjusting to do depending on how feroiously I went at it and for how long I went at it. But with a minor tweak between songs, they can be made to perform extremely well. If anyone needs any proof of this, just watch and listen to Jeff Beck. He uses a stock Fender modern trem and has that bar in his hands ALL the time. He pulls up, slams it with his palm, presses it all the way down and generally mauls it all set long. He does not have a tuner in his pedal board and I see him change guitars once in a 2 hr. set. That is tuning stability. Listen to "Where Were You" from Guitar Shop

The PRS trem IMHO is just a step further down the road to non-locking perfection. They require less set-up tweaking and stay in tune a little better than the Fender product.

The Floyd can stay in tune perfectly. It does change the tone though. I only say this because I have had two installed on Strats that I had without Floyds and then had them put on. Hey as long as you've had a guitar from the beginning that has had one on you don't know what your guitar sounded like with out one. As long as I played with heavy distortion there was an imperceptible difference. But when clean or slightly overdriven. The sound was smaller, less twangy. I know John Suhr will recomends Floyds to his customers that have tuning issues. And he makes guitars that are twang kings. Look at the Pensa/ Suhr Strats he built for Mark Knopfler. Right on his site he says that The Floyd Rose is the closest you can get to tuning perfection. Also a big thing here is pitch travel. The Floyd can do monsterous changes in pitch with just a slight touch of the pinky. Other trems are not capable of such dramatic changes in pitch so effortlessly. You can tell on a recording immediately if it is a Floyd or a Fender or a Bigsby for that matter. All have their unique sound and touch.

Now the Bigsby is one that has not been touched on here. Also a worthy trem with it's own thing going on. Again, a tone changer if you've put one on a guitar that you are familiar with previously. (I put one on a Les Paul). Way less sustain and definitely messes with the action on the neck. But they have their sound and the lack of travel of the arm can get you stuff that none of the others can. I have a Gretsch Country Gent that I can really go nuts on and not have to retune it for the next song. I point to Brian Setzer for you doubting Thomas', listen to his version of "Sleepwalk". KILLER !!!

Again I say it all comes down to preference of the player. I do not think any of these are better than the other, just different.


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## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

faracaster... well said... I agree FR systems stay in tune great.
We have not mentioned Kahler yet either. I have one guitar with a kahler. A custom made Larivee V. Which I hade made back in the early 90's when I lived in Vancouver.
Kahlers stay in tune really well but not as well as a FR. Are as smooth a feel as any trem I've used. They do not have the travel of a FR system. The nice thing is they require no holes in your guitar's body. The tension can be light or heavy but to adjust you have to remove the unit from your guitar, replace it and try it out, and repeat as needed till the desired tension is reached... thats a pain.

Khing


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

KHINGPYNN said:


> faracaster... well said... I agree FR systems stay in tune great.
> We have not mentioned Kahler yet either. I have one guitar with a kahler. A custom made Larivee V. Which I hade made back in the early 90's when I lived in Vancouver.
> Kahlers stay in tune really well but not as well as a FR. Are as smooth a feel as any trem I've used. They do not have the travel of a FR system. The nice thing is they require no holes in your guitar's body. The tension can be light or heavy but to adjust you have to remove the unit from your guitar, replace it and try it out, and repeat as needed till the desired tension is reached... thats a pain.
> 
> Khing


I was a Kahler user before switching to FRs.

I used Kahler pros on most of my guitars. In my opinion they are the SMOOTHEST feeling trem out there. I always morticed a ledge into the body around 3/16ths deep in the footprint of the bridge. This created more of an angle and seemd to help with sustain due to the strings being tighter in the saddles.

My only complaint was sustain and as for changing strings I always soldered the balls on the plain strings so it was slowere for me tha a FR string change.


The bar itself was wonderful. I loved the nylon bushing that they use to set the tension.


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## Coustfan'01 (Sep 27, 2006)

The only trick I did with my FR equipped guitar was top pull-off G string , dive bomb all the way down, then touch a harmonic at the 4th or 5th fret while picking up the bar and raising the pitch all the way up ( sometimes picking the guitar by the bar and shaking it ) . I did that a lot , and it still stayed in tune... I think that says a lot about tuning stability .


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## MaxWedge (Feb 24, 2006)

Not mentioned yet is the Wasburn Wonderbar. I have one of these(a Shift 2001) on a guitar and while it won't dive like a FR. It does stay in tune very well. Tension at the bar is heavy, but workable. I'm considering transplanting it on my Squier Strat. Surface mount makes installation a breeze. Still I beleive the FR is about as good as it gets.


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## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

i remember the wonder bar. But I've never tried one. I did hear it was a good unit and stayed in tune. A friend I met out west had owned one in the past.

Khing


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## bobb (Jan 4, 2007)

MaxWedge said:


> Not mentioned yet is the Wasburn Wonderbar. I have one of these(a Shift 2001) on a guitar and while it won't dive like a FR. It does stay in tune very well. Tension at the bar is heavy, but workable. I'm considering transplanting it on my Squier Strat. Surface mount makes installation a breeze. Still I beleive the FR is about as good as it gets.


My main guitar has been running the Shift 2001 since day one. It was the top load/no routing that caught my attention first. So nice to have a strat-style with all that extra wood.


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## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

Nice guitar... do you have a picture of the other side?

Craig


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## bobb (Jan 4, 2007)

KHINGPYNN said:


> Nice guitar... do you have a picture of the other side?
> 
> Craig


Current incarnation with Seymour Duncan JB and two Evans Classic Rhythm piclups:









Alternate setup with either Evans Classic or Hot Lead and two Classic Rhythms:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

KHINGPYNN said:


> Milkman said...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think my comments should have been pretty clear.

Intonating a guitar is something I do when I change string gauges or brands. I check mine quickly when I restring, but with the FR properly tightened up, I have never had to adjust it.

Intonating while standing up , between songs, between sets?

If that doesn't seem nuts to you......:confused-smiley-010 

I'm not slinging mud man, but really, who the F$%k intonates DURING a gig!?!


This is bordering on the Eric Johnson level of extremity. 


There comes a point where I have to stop being a tech and start being an entertainer/player.

Sorry if this posture offends you. I'm just being honest. I don't see anything contradictory in my comments.


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## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

Intonating during a gig may not be an everyday thing... usually things are done prior and ready to go... what I'm saying is it happens and man it's nasty with the FR system and easy with others... fact.

As for your comments being contradictory... you left these out in your last post... it's self explanitory or as I asked... clarify.



> (Ooooo, once a year I have to spend an extra few minutes to tweak my intonation)?





> For the record, I do check my intonation every time I change strings


So what I'm getting at here is I understand freedom of speech but actions will cause reactions and if someone tells me what I do is nuts then yeah I take offence to that. I really do not care how someone else does it ( not meant in a negative way ) and I'm surely mature enough to not make negative comments on a public forum when it concerns someones personal beliefs on do's and don'ts... thats just poor behaviour IMHO. If you intonate once a year than thats acceptable and yeah who cares about the little extra time it takes with a FR but if you intonate more often or say do it for a living... as I said...



> As for the amount of time it takes to do work on a FR yeah it's longer but if like Milkman you do it once a year then who cares but if you are like myself and intonate on every string change then FR's are a pain in the ass.


Bottom line is this FR systems are great and have certain drawbacks and whether you love or hate them is a matter of personal opinion... other systems are great aswell and the same applies... I want you to know however that slammin people for their personal opinions is simply bad etiquette and I do not accept that and will have my say.

Its obvious to me and others as I see from reading the posts in this thread that I'm not alone in my thoughts here. I could not care less how many years you have played or whether you gig, or play in your basemant, how old you are, etc... I do not judge people on that nor do I judge them on what they deem necassary in getting their artistic expressions across.

As far as I'm concerned you owe me an apology and you should use better etiquette in the future... however if you decide not to thats your choice and the consequences of that choice are yours and yours alone.

Khing


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

KHINGPYNN said:


> Intonating during a gig may not be an everyday thing... usually things are done prior and ready to go... what I'm saying is it happens and man it's nasty with the FR system and easy with others... fact.
> 
> As for your comments being contradictory... you left these out in your last post... it's self explanitory or as I asked... clarify.
> 
> ...



No, you're being way too sensitive. Grow a skin and accept that others will disagree with you periodically.

I owe you NO apology. If I resort to name calling or personal attacks, THEN I would be out of line.


If you are so distracted by the intonation on a guitar that you would consider intonating between songs, you may want to seek counciling, LOL.

As I said, you're approaching the Eric Johnson school of cork sniffing.

Artistic expression? Please.


Intonating a guitar in the middle of a show?


Raise your hands anybody who does this?????


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

I don't personally intonate at a gig, but I can see if someones ear was refined enough that it could drive a guy nuts and make them do a quick intonation tweek during a gig. I'm not saying your ear isn't refined Milkman, just that others might be bothered enough that a quick intonation change keeps the sanity.


Now lets just leave it at that guys! It's starting to get personal, and I don't want to close another thread.


Jeff


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Jeff Flowerday said:


> I don't personally intonate at a gig, but I can see if someones ear was refined enough that it could drive a guy nuts and make them do a quick intonation tweek during a gig. I'm not saying your ear isn't refined Milkman, just that others might be bothered enough that a quick intonation change keeps the sanity.
> 
> 
> Now lets just leave it at that guys! It's starting to get personal, and I don't want to close another thread.
> ...



LOL.

Ok man.

I have to go put an elastic band around my Fuzz face.


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## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

With respect to this forum and it's members I will not reply to this thread.

Khing


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Wide open debate. To each his own really. It comes down to what works for you and the type of music you play. Plus and minus for most all these systems. The intonation thing.... I think I might look at mine two or three times a year.


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## ILUVMYJP7 (Jan 1, 2007)

Man I apologize if I had something to do with the slight increase in temperature, I think we all can agree on at least one thing, playing guitar is better than sex:banana:


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## MaxWedge (Feb 24, 2006)

Better than sex?


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## ILUVMYJP7 (Jan 1, 2007)

MaxWedge said:


> Better than sex?


Well I can play guitar on any night of the week, I can play hard or soft, heavy or laid back, with my GT-8 I can dial in almost any tone I so choose...shall I continue and describe my sex life, or is that far enough...:rockon2:


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## Eric Pykala (Jul 1, 2006)

I have no problems with the FR except:
1. Bridge flutter making adjacent string bends require multiple bends, all of differing degrees just to keep it in tune.
2. Biggest PITA to setup and maintain.
3. Break a string and put it down to pickup your spare.
4. Love taking a guitar string, clamping it in metal blocks at one end and then parking a Buick on two posts in the middle of the guitar. This is Tone? Not to me.
5. Looks like shite.
My Musicmans and PRSi stay in tune equally as well (so do my trad. Fender trems; setup is everything) and suffer from none of the above. One of these days I will meet Floyd in person and there will be an assault charge involved. Yeah, I fix guitars for a living...-Eric.


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## faracaster (Mar 9, 2006)

Eric Pykala said:


> I have no problems with the FR except:
> One of these days I will meet Floyd in person and there will be an assault charge involved. Yeah, I fix guitars for a living...-Eric.



LOL !!!...... and you sound so happy about it Eric. Can I have your job? :tongue:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Eric Pykala said:


> I have no problems with the FR except:
> 1. Bridge flutter making adjacent string bends require multiple bends, all of differing degrees just to keep it in tune.
> 
> 
> ...


1. Big problem for country pickers I guess. The FR was not designed for steel guitar licks. (I can do double stops with bends. Just takes a little practice).

2. and you fix guitars for a living?

3. One broken string in 10 years. That's why I have back ups.

4. I use my ears to assess tone, not a discription of how you string the bridge. Sounds great to me.

5. Ok, can't argue with that. Lots of people would say the same about a Les Paul. (but who gives a shite how it looks?)


Equally well? I've heard this claim many times and strangely enough, I can throw these guitars out of tune pretty easily.



Again, it's all about what you like.


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## ILUVMYJP7 (Jan 1, 2007)

10, 9, 8, 7...Starting count down till thread closure


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Wishful thinking?


Closing threads because someone gets their nose out of joint is not a good idea unless you want a place where everybody has the same opinions and nobody ever dares to say "the Emperor's naked".


That's not the way I see this site and it would be a shame.


When I hear or read something that I believe to be false, I call BS.

If that ruffles feathers, so be it. 


Guitarists are among the worst (or best) followers there are. One guitar god makes a statement in a guitar mag and it becomes fact.

I use my own judgement. That doesn't mean I'm always right, but my opinions are based on my experience and not on what everybody else says is so.

:food-smiley-004:


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## MaxWedge (Feb 24, 2006)

There have always been those who take issue with the FR. Whatever they're reasons are, I can't figure. It's a choice and it's damn nice to have choice. Even better, freedom of speech without censorship. Freedom's great, isn't it?:rockon:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Right on.



Also, a question of balance














which incidentally is the fundamental concept upon which the mighty Floyd Rose double locking vibrato is based.



(on topic):rockon2:


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

Eric Pykala said:


> I have no problems with the FR except:
> 1. Bridge flutter making adjacent string bends require multiple bends, all of differing degrees just to keep it in tune.
> 2. Biggest PITA to setup and maintain.
> 3. Break a string and put it down to pickup your spare.
> ...


Damn Eric. I'm bringing in my Wolfgangs and a Kramer Baretta, all with Floyds for a set up. None


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

The ironic thing is that setting up a Floyd is really simpler in some ways than a traditional Fender trem. You have to really know how to set up one of those the be able to use it at all, and the amount of time and effort you spend with them DOES yield results.



With a Floyd I set it up in under an hour including installing the strings, setting action and intonating it. I also set up guitars for a living for about 18 months (between bands). When tightened correctly I've had one saddle come loose in some twenty years of using them. I've gone through some of the locking screws on the bridge and a few on the nuts, but really they never seem to need a lot of tweaking.

The traditional ones need more TLC, but obviously many players still prefer them for tonal reasons.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

Milkman said:


> When I hear or read something that I believe to be false, I call BS.
> 
> If that ruffles feathers, so be it.
> 
> ...


Actually what you did was tell someone they are nuts for intinating at a gig. I had absolutely nothing to do with something that is false. It wasn't direct name calling but indirectly that's what you were doing.

You kept at it, poking little jabs here and there and you really didn't have to. If KHINGPYNN hadn't walked away you'd still probably be at it.

Food for thought!


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## Eric Pykala (Jul 1, 2006)

Hey ne1roc, just because I PERSONALLY don't like floyds never interferes with my ability to do great work on customer's guitars. You should see some of the stuff that crosses my bench that I REALLY don't like!
This post is all about opinion...no point getting into name-calling about pieces of metal. My opinion? PRS trems are the best I have played/used, but I haven't tried the unobtanium Skyway yet. The PRS is an elegant design that has very low flutter, the ability to adjust individual saddle height without resorting to shims, does not rely on a locknut that can only be adjusted down by removing wood from the neck or up by shimming (shims are a band-aid that kill Tone), superb return-to-zero, and the ability to change a broken string in 45 seconds and still get the guitar back in tune. Someone mentioned the six screws and the importance of not adjusting them under tension; in all the time I've been playing and working on PRSi (and I used to be the first Canadian rep for PRS along with our partner Mike and our own Faracaster), I have never had to change the height of the bridge with those six screws, with one exception. Some "repairman" had taken a customers CE, screwed the bridge all the way down, then tightened the trem claw bolts right into the back of the neck. Caught it before the knife-edge was ruined. Lotsa bozons out there "repairing" guitars ("bozon", according to Dan Akroyd, is a genetically-engineeered cross between a bozo and a moron...).
Bottom line...you guys that like your floyds, more power to you! I like the PRS trem, but that's just my OPINION.-Eric


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Jeff Flowerday said:


> Actually what you did was tell someone they are nuts for intinating at a gig. I had absolutely nothing to do with something that is false. It wasn't direct name calling but indirectly that's what you were doing.
> 
> You kept at it, poking little jabs here and there and you really didn't have to. If KHINGPYNN hadn't walked away you'd still probably be at it.
> 
> Food for thought!




Intonating at a gig IS nuts. Again I call them as I see them. I have never seen ANYone intonate a guitar between sets. Perhaps if a saddle fell off or something extreme like that, but let's get real here.

Food for thought? Here's some food for thought. 

BS is BS


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

Eric Pykala said:


> Hey ne1roc, just because I PERSONALLY don't like floyds never interferes with my ability to do great work on customer's guitars.


 Which is why I am bringing all my guitars over to you! I hope I didn't offend you? I was kinda poking fun at your dislike for Mr. Floyd!


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## ILUVMYJP7 (Jan 1, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I have never seen ANYone intonate a guitar between sets.


Not a Floyd anyway, but an EBMM JP, NO PROBLEM!:banana:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ILUVMYJP7 said:


> Not a Floyd anyway, but an EBMM JP, NO PROBLEM!:banana:



Well I guess if that bridge NEEDs to be intonated in the middle of a gig......



The FR sure doesn't.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i have no use for a floyd. i think that if i had a guitar tech and didn't have to bother with re-stringing, maintenance etc, i could see myself using one...occasionally.

i have an '86 strat plus with an upgraded two-point trem that tunes, and stays in tune, better than any guitar i've ever played, trem or no trem. its a floating trem, and i have no fear of abusing it.

on the other hand, i have a g&l legacy with a two-point trem that is, in my opinion, klunky and poorly designed. it has caused me endless headaches, and the problem persists. this trem seems unable to find the zero point. 

-dh


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Intonating at a gig IS nuts. Again I call them as I see them. I have never seen ANYone intonate a guitar between sets. Perhaps if a saddle fell off or something extreme like that, but let's get real here.
> 
> Food for thought? Here's some food for thought.
> 
> BS is BS


Thinking it's nuts is fine, and posting that is fine as well, but continually posting it and being an arrogant ass about it isn't called for.

We want this place to be a place that everyone can enjoy and it's simple as being nice. Can you possibly do that? If not here's a link for you:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/index.php


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

I've been trying to avoid this part of the thread but when you think about it, if you had to intonate between sets, I would think that there is an issue with either the tremolo or the guitar? No?


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> I've been trying to avoid this part of the thread but when you think about it, if you had to intonate between sets, I would think that there is an issue with either the tremolo or the guitar? No?


Not necessarily, as strings stretch out and get gunked up the intonation will move around. It's slight and it might be enough to bother some.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Jeff Flowerday said:


> Thinking it's nuts is fine, and posting that is fine as well, but continually posting it and being an arrogant ass about it isn't called for.
> 
> We want this place to be a place that everyone can enjoy and it's simple as being nice. Can you possibly do that? If not here's a link for you:
> 
> http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/index.php



And is this proper comduct for a moderator?


Directing faithful contributors to go to Harmony central after referring to them as an "arrogant ass"?


I don't really care if you like me or not.

YOU sir are stepping out of line.



Perhaps the administrators should be making such decisions.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Jeff Flowerday said:


> Not necessarily, as strings stretch out and get gunked up the intonation will move around. It's slight and it might be enough to bother some.



Experts will tell you that strings don't actually stretch. They settle in around the tuners.

If your strings are "gunked up" to the extent that you need to re-intonate, wouldn't it make more sense to change the strings?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

ne1roc said:


> I've been trying to avoid this part of the thread but when you think about it, if you had to intonate between sets, I would think that there is an issue with either the tremolo or the guitar? No?


If you have to intonate in the middle of a gig there's definitely some sort of issue.


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## Jeff Flowerday (Jan 23, 2006)

Milkman said:


> And is this proper comduct for a moderator?
> 
> 
> Directing faithful contributors to Harmony central after referring to them as an "arogant ass"?
> ...


 
I asked you to be nice and if you can't go to HC. So you are saying you just can't?

Personally, I don't have a problem with you, I'm just responding to multiple complaints and I'm asking you to be nice and quit coming across as an arrogant ass.

You can take it to PM now. Or you can contact the admins if you still feel I'm completely wrong and you are right.


Jeff


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