# Full Stack Users



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Rare breed today. How many are running full stacks?


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## Guest (Mar 8, 2012)

Only a half. Haven't played through it since the late 80's
(besides home use .. to keep caps from drying out). May 
just put it on the market soon.


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

nowhere in public, too loud!!

but what a joyous sound it is


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Running half. Traded the old 412 for that epi. Ran one at home in high school, good times.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Even "back in the day" I didn't use a full stack. Half was always more than enough. I learned to prefer a combo with an extension cab.

Now that p.a. systems have improved I find I use smaller backline amps and larger front of house sound. 

Peace, Mooh.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

GONE


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## Frenchy (Mar 23, 2011)

Got two 2 X 15 for bass that has not seen the light of day in a long time....

Was still playing with a 1X15 with 2X8 plus a 1X12 in a band 3 years ago with a heavy hitter drummer...sdsre

Miss it.....

Cant wait till the next outdoor gig....kkjuw


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

I use a 1/4 stack  

I can't even imagine where I would be that I would need a full stack. Even my JTM45 and 2x12 is overkill for pretty much every place I've played.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

When I did gig, I used a combo, a Twin.

Even then, I used it on the lower wattage setting,
so I was dragging around a ninety pound amp for 25 watts.


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

great thread.... I have a friend (bedroom player, living at home with family) who keeps insisting he needs a 50 watt marshall.

I too, am a bedroom player, but i have a house. I can't imagine ever needing anything louder than my AC15C1. even my little 5 watters are more than enough amp for me.

I'd love a chance to hear a full stack up close and personal though.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

It's pretty glorious. If I could get away with two 412's, I would.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i am in the market for a half stack - looking forward to it!


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

There really is nothing like a cranked 4x12 for good old rock and roll. I used to do it but the walls could not stand the stress


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## Guest (Mar 9, 2012)

david henman said:


> ...i am in the market for a half stack - looking forward to it!


 Hey David.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

I had a half stack (1973 Hiwatt Custom 50), said I would never get rid of it. Ended up selling it a couple years ago and buying a smaller head and 1x12 cab. No regrets.

This thread brings up an interesting question. We all know the story, through the late 60's & early 70's concerts got bigger and so did the amps. Eventually PA technology caught up to the point where we no longer needed a wall of full stacks to be heard. 

If we don't need them in a stadium anymore do we need them in a club or our basement?


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

hardasmum said:


> I had a half stack (1973 Hiwatt Custom 50), said I would never get rid of it. Ended up selling it a couple years ago and buying a smaller head and 1x12 cab. No regrets.
> 
> This thread brings up an interesting question. We all know the story, through the late 60's & early 70's concerts got bigger and so did the amps. Eventually PA technology caught up to the point where we no longer needed a wall of full stacks to be heard.
> 
> If we don't need them in a stadium anymore do we need them in a club or our basement?


The easy answer is NO. But...the sure look awesome on stage!!!

I've never owned a full (or even half) stack, only even used ones that didn't belong to me, but that don't mean I don't want one  GASGASGAS


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

We used half stacks in the 80s but even then it was overkill. We just didn't realize it yet.

Everthing has been mic'd for me since very early on in my gigging career. I can see or hear no advantage to a half or full stack.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> We used half stacks in the 80s but even then it was overkill. We just didn't realize it yet.
> Everthing has been mic'd for me since very early on in my gigging career. I can see or hear no advantage to a half or full stack.


...just a theory, but: back then it was about loudness. now it's about tone. deep, rich, fat, warm tone. at least, that's what i'm hoping for.


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

It does feel good, standing in front of lots of speakers. The music just hits you! I remember playing in shorts and the hairs on my legs were waving from the volume. I haven't played a high-volume gig in ages and I gotta say that mic'ing a small amp just isn't as much fun, though it's still a lot of fun.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

david henman said:


> ...i am in the market for a half stack - looking forward to it!


Damn, I traded mine since no one was biting.


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## BEMUSofNrthAmra (Jun 9, 2012)

Very very soon I will be running a full stack.

I'm still researching which 12 inch speakers I will be putting in my empty 4x12.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Fun fact: as a halfstack user, i've been told people couldnt hear my leads. Go figure. Bemus, G12T30's if you can


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Budda said:


> Fun fact: as a halfstack user, i've been told people couldnt hear my leads. Go figure. Bemus, G12T30's if you can


You need a new sound man


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## Canadian Charlie (Apr 30, 2008)

In my band days yes, Marshall 50 watt head, Garnet cab and a West cab. Fast forward 30 years and I'm using a Peavey ValveKing combo (50 watts) but that too much for home use.


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## BEMUSofNrthAmra (Jun 9, 2012)

Nothing compares to the air movement a full stack provides.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

BEMUSofNrthAmra said:


> Nothing compares to the air movement a full stack provides.



If you're not mic'ing your amp and you're playing a stadium, maybe.

Of course you'd STILL need to inject some modern technology in order to hear vocals, but that's often not a priority among stack lovers.

It is a good sound. It's just overkill by modern standards.


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## Guest (Sep 3, 2012)

BEMUSofNrthAmra said:


> Nothing compares to the air movement a full stack provides.


Where can you play that you can open it up to move that kind of air? Even a really big space like the Phoenix or the Government are nearly too small for that much "air" to be "moved". Certainly your average bar is way too small for that kind of air. Open it up and the only thing it'll do is blow all the patrons out the door and down the street to another bar.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

I recently joined the 1/2 stack club. It is nice to have so much low mid, but I can't imagine a full stack - I'm going deaf as it is!


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## BEMUSofNrthAmra (Jun 9, 2012)

iaresee said:


> Where can you play that you can open it up to move that kind of air? Even a really big space like the Phoenix or the Government are nearly too small for that much "air" to be "moved". Certainly your average bar is way too small for that kind of air. Open it up and the only thing it'll do is blow all the patrons out the door and down the street to another bar.


I've seen many full stack bands at Lee's Palace, The Phoenix and the Horseshoe Tavern. Actually, at Lee's, I saw Boris play, and they had 4 full stacks.

Boris was the loudest band I've seen live so far in my life. It was an amazing experience. 

Venues aren't as "afraid" of full stacks as people think.

In my opinion, a full stack isn't even that much louder than a half stack, but a full stack does sound "bigger".

I could never pull off my style of music with AC15 + 1x12, although I love all the boutique Vox inspired amps out there, they just don't provide that same power.

I imagine most of you would cringe at the musical influences that have me playing through a full stack. It really comes down to the style of music.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

It's mostly for show. As has been said by many experienced payers and sound men, with modern PA systems, there's simply no need for big stage amps, in fact, it's generally counterproductive.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2012)

Milkman said:


> It's mostly for show. As has been said by many experienced payers and sound men, with modern PA systems, there's simply no need for big stage amps, in fact, it's generally counterproductive.


+1 -- having a full stack on stage and "opening it up" are two very different things. Milkman knows WTF he's talking about here. A stage the size of Lee's Palace couldn't handle a full stack "opened up" -- you might as well shut off the PA at that point because the bleed in to every other mic on that tiny stage is going to make mixing a useless endeavour.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2012)

I never could get past '3' on the volume of my Hiwatt
without the sound man telling me to turn it down.


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## BEMUSofNrthAmra (Jun 9, 2012)

I've argued this point with so many people on the net, and it always comes down to the same thing.

Those with smaller amps will say a full stack is "unnecessary" due to modern PA systems and sound guys, and that anything above what they personally use is "overkill". And you gotta trust these smaller amp users, they are smarter than the full stack users. They know something we don't.

As soon as I hear someone say "Lees couldn't handle a full stack opened up" I know they either a) have never actually seen a band with a full stack at Lee's Palace or b) fail to realize that a full stack, cranked isn't as all consuming as they think it is.


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## BEMUSofNrthAmra (Jun 9, 2012)

Milkman said:


> It's mostly for show. As has been said by many experienced payers and sound men, with modern PA systems, there's simply no need for big stage amps, in fact, it's generally counterproductive.


You're wrong, but hey that's fine.

Not every amp needs PA Support.

"No need" should NOT be in a thread about Full Stacks. 

It's like going to a Hot Rod show and telling everyone "Oh you know what?! All your cars are SOOO bad on gas!!! Why don't you go buy a Honda Civic?" While you are right, in theory, anyone who owns a Hot Rod is just going to quietly laugh at you for not getting it.


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## BEMUSofNrthAmra (Jun 9, 2012)

People still use them for a reason. I know how desperately some of you would like to equate this to "the look" of a full stack on stage. The bottom line is that every musician cares what they look like on stage, so by saying anyone who uses more than 1 4x12 only cares about "the look" is a totally lame cheap shot and a pretty weak generalization.


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2012)

BEMUSofNrthAmra said:


> People still use them for a reason. I know how desperately some of you would like to equate this to "the look" of a full stack on stage. The bottom line is that every musician cares what they look like on stage, so by saying anyone who uses more than 1 4x12 only cares about "the look" is a totally lame cheap shot and a pretty weak generalization.


I think you're mis-reading some of what's being written here. Certainly what I wrote isn't being read carefully. It's not the two 4x12s on stage. It's the "opening it up" statement. Turning that up to 11 in a club the size of Lee's is not going to work well 99.9999% of the time. Maybe Boris is an exception, but that's a pretty damn good rule.



> Not every amp needs PA Support.


No, but every band does and as soon as you have amps working outside of the FoH board, the mix goes to shit pretty quickly. Nothing like relying on a guitar player on stage to keep the mix from falling apart to pretty much guarantee the mix falls apart.

Was talking to another guitar player Sunday night who opened up for Kim Mitchell this weekend. Festival stage, outdoors, AMPLE opportunity to turn it up. Mitchell was playing a Blakenship and a JCM800, both in to their own 4x12s. That's lots of air-moving power there, in an open space where there's ample air to be moved. Did he? Nope. On stage volume was pretty quiet. He had a good reason to have 2 cabinets on stage: they were both early 70's basketweaves with G12s in them -- they were a specific cabinet sound he wanted and he likes to blend the two amps to get his sound. But both amps were fairly quiet on stage, running on power soaks so they could have their masters turned way up, but not bleed like crazy in to all the other mics on stage.

There are a *lot* of competent and experienced guitarists and sound engineers chiming in on this thread. Guys who play all kinds of music. If you're playing Lee's palace with your 8 speaker stack and your amp on 11 and it's sounding great, you're packing the house, you're the exception for sure among all those other guys.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I've got a SuperStack!


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## blam (Feb 18, 2011)

I have nothing to add to this thread.

5 watts through a 1x10 is more than enough for what I do.

having said that, I'm very curious to hear a 50 or 100 watt cranked through 8x12 full stack

I haven't even cranked my 15 watter through a 1x12. it's just far too loud even at 1/4.

but again, I'm a living room type guy.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Sometimes people just have to figure things put in their own time.

The idea of a 4 X 12 closed back cabinet is fine. It's not always necessary but yes, they can sound great.

Opening up a 100 watt full stack indoors is the way things were done in the....70s? 

What's the goal? 

To put on a show? To get a great balanced sound to the audience? To feel the power of the music (maybe get a little loud)?

If the answer is yes to those questions, as I assume it must be, controlling stage volume is job one.

If it's an image thing, I completely understand that and while that is not necessarily the image I prefer, having a bunch of prop stacks on stage may be the right image for your band.

At the end of the day, I'd be surprised if you find many sound men who will endorse the use of full stacks in all but the largest venues.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Isn't it as long as you have enough stage volume for the band is all you need?
Especially these days with PA technology. The rest is done FOH?

That's why I gigged with a hundred watt amp on the low setting @ 25 watts.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

hardasmum said:


> I had a half stack (1973 Hiwatt Custom 50), said I would never get rid of it. Ended up selling it a couple years ago and buying a smaller head and 1x12 cab. No regrets.
> 
> This thread brings up an interesting question. We all know the story, through the late 60's & early 70's concerts got bigger and so did the amps. Eventually PA technology caught up to the point where we no longer needed a wall of full stacks to be heard.
> 
> If we don't need them in a stadium anymore do we need them in a club or our basement?


That's great!

I've seen lots of pictures of big time 80's bands from back in the day where they had walls of Marshall stacks (with no mikes in front of them) and a little Boogie or Fender combo at the side of the stage mic'd up.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

sulphur said:


> Isn't it as long as you have enough stage volume for the band is all you need?
> Especially these days with PA technology. The rest is done FOH?
> 
> That's why I gigged with a hundred watt amp on the low setting @ 25 watts.


Exactly right.

Basically when mixing out front, you have to mix everything to at least the level of the loudest sound coming from the stage. 

If a guitarist uses a full stack and points it at the audience (and sound man), that may well be the level to which you must mix all other instruments in order to get a balanced mix.

The lower you can make your stage volume (within reason) the easier it is to get a great FOH mix out front.

The irony is that if the full stack is pointing AT or near the FOH board location, the sound man may actully be mixing you LOWER than you should be, because he's hearing way too much guitar where he's sitting.

Yes, it's important to walk the room and judge the mix at different locations, but you spend most of your time behind the board. If someone is using a sledgehammer to do watch repair, it's tough to get a good mix.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Good points Mike.

I have nothing against guys using stacks.
I have a few buddies that still use them, metalheads mostly. 8)

We had a loud, hard-hitting drummer.
That's usually what I found you had to adjust your volume to, the drummer.
The Twin in the low setting was enough during jams, practices and gigs.

I've jammed around here with guys on electric kits that I could have brought the Pignose to play through.

When I saw Black Label Society in TO, Zach had a wall of amps and cabs, stretching from one side of the stage to the other.
Judging by the deafening roar that blasted our way, I think that they were all real and all on!
Of course, we were 16 rows back, on the floor, right under the left rack of suspended PA speakers.
Ouch.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

sulphur said:


> Good points Mike.
> 
> I have nothing against guys using stacks.
> I have a few buddies that still use them, metalheads mostly. 8)
> ...


Where was the venue? Molson amphitheater?

I doubt many members here are playing huge outdoor venues like that, but even there, Zak would have had a better sound with fewer and smaller amps.

Drummers are also a problem in smaller rooms. Electronic kits work as do plexiglas shields. You see those on many shows where good sound is a high priority.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

That was at the ACC.

It was the Judas Priest, BLS, Thin Lizzy show, the end of last year.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

sulphur said:


> That was at the ACC.
> 
> It was the Judas Priest, BLS, Thin Lizzy show, the end of last year.


Right. Not exactly Lee's Palace. Nevertheless, as most of us know, you could easily play ACC or any venue on the planet with no more than a 2 X 12 combo (or even a 1 X 12).

The picture in the above post is not a joke.


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## BEMUSofNrthAmra (Jun 9, 2012)

I have one more thing left to say on the subject of full stacks.

I've seen, and still see bands who use full stack amplifiers. If you're going to gripe about how unnecessary a full stack is, I suppose the same goes for the 8x10 for bassists. Still regarded as a classic for it's full sound.

There seems to be a fair amount of ignorance to the fact that a lot of bands in genres of music you may or may not be aware of make full use of very large amplifiers in order to shape their sound. Needless to say, a lot of these bands aren't and will never be part of the mainstream. If you are the type to never stray from the mainstream, you may never see the need for a stack of 2 4x12s other than to "look cool".

You wouldn't expect to see Sunn O))) playing a telecaster through a Vox AC30, would you? Yikes.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

We've told you the truth.

What you choose to do with it is entirely up to you.

And, yes most of have seen many bands with walls of stacks.

I've also seen cars with no seat belts and huge V8 engines, yet with a fraction of the horsepower of a modern sedan.

It's not griping. it's reality.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

It would be interesting to know how many current full stack users also employ some form of attenuator.

If anyone has watched that Joe Perry Rig Rundown it's interesting to see the wall of amps he's running live. Only a couple are being miked and the rest are for his stage sound. 

Necessary? Probably not. Inspiring for a guitar player? 100% yes.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Well I'm nobody to question the likes of Joe Perry, but yes attenuators are great for reining in over powered amps.

The thing is, it's still not necessary and depending on the mix you like to hear on stage can still be undesireable to have a wall of stacks on stage.

What do you want to hear when playing in a band?

I want a balanced mix with lots of vocals. Standing in front of a wall of celestions and trying to hear yourself (or someone else) sing is not good.

As a player, I prefer a smaller source (combo amp). pointed away from the audience and just slightly off axis to my vocal mic. I can hear it fine, and igf I need a little more for a solo, I step into the sweet spot.

If other players need more of my guitar, monitor mixes can accomplish that better than adding more guitar speakers.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Well I'm nobody to question the likes of Joe Perry, but yes attenuators are great for reining in over powered amps.
> 
> The thing is, it's still not necessary and depending on the mix you like to hear on stage can still be undesireable to have a wall of stacks on stage.
> 
> ...



Thats the same setup I like. Just slightly off axis to where I am standing. I like it off to the left of me side washing the stage but depending on the stage that isn't always possible and sometimes that can rip at the bass player on the other side. What I would like to do is have it behind me with some kind of plexi shield blocking the direct beam. My Celestion V30's can sound awesome slightly off axis but directly can be really peircing. I hate having any of my guitar in a monitor.


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## Fuzzy Picklez (Apr 20, 2011)

I would love to run another 4x12 with my current setup, but seeing as I don't have a car, I should probably hold off.

And it's threads like these that make me hate the internet. It really seems like some of you have never been to a rock concert. There is honestly just something so amazing about being hit with volume. There is nothing like it in this world.

Ever stood in front of a cranked 100 watt amp? There is something so raw, and so powerful about a loud amplifier. There is nothing more rock and roll than volume. High volumes are the very excess that rock and roll was built on.

It is something you 1x12 15 watt amp will never achieve. Ever.

I know, because I've got both! There's nothing wrong with smaller amps. They're a different sound. However, there is honestly nothing like a cranked, large amp.

It's not just about the volumes though. More speakers just sound so good. Mixing different types is great too. A 4x12 almost always sounds better than a 1x12 to my ears.

So to answer the question, I play a 100 2x12 combo with a 2x12 ext. cab right now, but if I had the mode of transportation and money, I would without a second though, add more speakers to that setup.

Yep.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Fuzzy Picklez said:


> I would love to run another 4x12 with my current setup, but seeing as I don't have a car, I should probably hold off.
> 
> And it's threads like these that make me hate the internet. It really seems like some of you have never been to a rock concert. There is honestly just something so amazing about being hit with volume. There is nothing like it in this world.
> 
> ...


You really have to be playing clubs that can handle that though. Even my 2X12 100 watt combo is too much for most clubs I play but I refuse to play a 1x12. I just don't like the sound. I would love to play a 4X12 but that would just be ridiculous in the clubs I play. I'd get away with it in a couple of clubs but thats not enough to justtify having extra cabs stored at my house. A couple of the clubs I play have soundmen and if they had their way we'd all be playing 10 watt 1X8.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

guitarman2 said:


> You really have to be playing clubs that can handle that though. Even my 2X12 100 watt combo is too much for most clubs I play but I refuse to play a 1x12. I just don't like the sound. I would love to play a 4X12 but that would just be ridiculous in the clubs I play. I'd get away with it in a couple of clubs but thats not enough to justtify having extra cabs stored at my house. A couple of the clubs I play have soundmen and if they had their way we'd all be playing 10 watt 1X8.


Same here. I've never played a place where they would be ok with me opening up my amp all the way and I'm only running a JTM45 or a YGM2! I have nothing against volume, I played an outdoor show with my JTM45 (almost) wide open through a 4x12 and it was great, but in practice in small clubs, for me to be that loud is impossible because the sound guy will have a shit, but also that just means everyone on stage is too loud. Don't know about you, but I play in a couple cover bands, so we do 3 or 4 sets and play for a looooong time. I can handle stupid volume for a short set, but for 3 hours? Nope. Not a chance.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Fuzzy Picklez said:


> And it's threads like these that make me hate the internet. It really seems like some of you have never been to a rock concert. There is honestly just something so amazing about being hit with volume. There is nothing like it in this world.
> 
> Ever stood in front of a cranked 100 watt amp?



Um...yeah. I love a 4x12 making my pant legs move. I love the bottom from a 4x12 cabinet. I don't think anyone here suggested that a full stack didn't sound great. The point being made is that you don't need to gig with one and most times it's overkill for small venues. Weezer once did a promo tour using Line 6 rack mounted PODs.

I gigged with a Hiwatt Custom 50 and 4x12 for almost twenty years but it was too big for 90% of the venues we were playing. After lugging the damn cabinet up a flight of stairs I got annoyed by the sound guy asking me turn down my amp. I switched to a 2x12 cabinet and had the same experience.

So two years ago I said "F this" and I picked up a 1x12 AC30 clone which is still super loud and is easy on my back.

But I still like the sound of a wall of amps.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

LMAO,

Nah I've never been to a concert that had a wall of Marshall stacks as a backline.

And of course, most of us here completely bypass clubs and other smallish gigs and move right to the ACC. That's why you see so many full stack users here.

Ah well, it comes down to the "it's your money" rationalization.

Yes, I like it loud, sometimes too loud, but I like a smooth clean and balanced mix. You just don't get that when most of your muscle comes fromn your backline.

This discussion reminds me of the guys with the $2000 cars with 6000 watts of subs. Sounds REALLY good eh?


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

@FuzzyPicklez
Going on a discussion forum and claiming that you hate the internet because of threads like this is ridiculous.
It's a discussion, so you discuss the topic, no?

People here are relating their own personal experiences on the OP.
Nobody is telling you what you should or shouldn't do, just what they've noticed.
The way you come across though, is trying to say that everyone else is wrong in their decision.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I would be the last to say that a full stack (or a wall of them) doesn't sound great.

I agree that they do.

But, in the context of a band they are counterproductive to the goal of a good FOH mix.


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