# Quarter Sawn Maple



## TWRC (Apr 22, 2011)

I've never owned a quarter sawn neck before and have heard some conflicting stories about why one should or should not go with a quarter sawn neck. I will be ordering a Strat neck from Musikraft for my new build and thought that this would be a nice option because I really like the look of the grain pattern.

However, is there anyone out there that has any experience with quarter sawn necks and more importantly on the structural aspects of this type of cut? I don't want to spark a tone debate, but want to know if someone on here has ever had a bad experience with this cut.

Thanks!


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

Quartersawn necks have a tendency to be more rigid. This can be a good or bad thing. A carefully selected flatsawn neck is equally good IMO.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Structural aspects of quartersawn lumber, hmmm... all cuts are not equal, it’s all about stability and more a more stable neck is better IMO, in that respect so quartersawn is best.


Generally less truss rod adjustment is required because it's less sensitive to humidity and temperature swings, importantly there's much less chance of fret sprout, I wouldn’t build a neck from flatsawn lumber unless someone asked for it specifically. 

To me, given the section of a guitar neck, flatsawn is the wrong choice - and before someone asks why then is flatsawn used - the reasons should be obvious.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I would jump on the quartersawn is superior bandwagon. It is more stable, rigid and less prone to movement with humidity changes. That being said I would not totally discount a flatsawn piece, or pieces as the case may be.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

Jimmy_D said:


> Structural aspects of quartersawn lumber, hmmm... all cuts are not equal, it’s all about stability and more a more stable neck is better IMO, in that respect so quartersawn is best.
> 
> 
> Generally less truss rod adjustment is required because it's less sensitive to humidity and temperature swings, importantly there's much less chance of fret sprout, I wouldn’t build a neck from flatsawn lumber unless someone asked for it specifically.


But not all flatsawn is equal. A carefully selected piece can be just as stable as 1/4 sawn. 

I've built a few necks with flatsawn, single piece shaft necks and I haven't had a single complaint. In fact, I've only gotten rave reviews. 

What do you think Fender used on those highly prized guitars everyone pays top dollar for now?


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## TWRC (Apr 22, 2011)

Those are all good points. I never considered fret sprout into the equation as I live in Edmonton and the humidity here is all out of whack in the summer. I find that it's pretty easy to take care of in the winter with a proper humidifier etc. Luckily I've never had to deal with any structural issues with any of my guitars.

I think for the structural aspects alone, quarter sawn gets the nod. As far as the tone thing goes, I've read so many mixed reviews, but I guess that's the joys of buying something custom: you'll never know what you're gonna get until you get it.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

TWRC said:


> Those are all good points. I never considered fret sprout into the equation as I live in Edmonton and the humidity here is all out of whack in the summer. I find that it's pretty easy to take care of in the winter with a proper humidifier etc. Luckily I've never had to deal with any structural issues with any of my guitars.
> 
> I think for the structural aspects alone, quarter sawn gets the nod. As far as the tone thing goes, I've read so many mixed reviews, but I guess that's the joys of buying something custom: you'll never know what you're gonna get until you get it.


You have to remember that we're dealing with hard woods here. I've never had fret sprout on my guitar necks.

From what you're saying, to avoid fret sprout, you'd need a 1/4 sawn fretboard. One could imply that the neck shaft doesn't really at the fret level, unless you have one of those 1 piece with skunk stripe necks.


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## Ian John (Aug 11, 2009)

To me quarter sawn wood is stronger ...more stable.. fender does not use it because it cuts into profit..lol


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Just remember that there can be as much as a 15 degree angle on the grain and still be considered Quarter sawn.


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## Ian John (Aug 11, 2009)

I look for 90 degrees quarter sawn...made some with slab cut with no problems too...


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Not picking sides here but if strength is a concern, I don't think I've ever seen a quarter sawn axe handle.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

LydianGuitars said:


> But not all flatsawn is equal. A carefully selected piece can be just as stable as 1/4 sawn.
> 
> I've built a few necks with flatsawn, single piece shaft necks and I haven't had a single complaint. In fact, I've only gotten rave reviews.
> 
> What do you think Fender used on those highly prized guitars everyone pays top dollar for now?


Like I said, the reasons that Fender uses flatsawn should be obvious and I never said there weren't good guitars made with flatsawn, but generally it's catagorically wrong to say flatsawn is just as stable.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Guitar101 said:


> Not picking sides here but if strength is a concern, I don't think I've ever seen a quarter sawn axe handle.


Think about an axe handle and it's section, it's 90 degrees to the section of a guitar neck with regard to where the stress is placed...there's your answer in a nutshell


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

LydianGuitars said:


> You have to remember that we're dealing with hard woods here. I've never had fret sprout on my guitar necks.
> 
> From what you're saying, to avoid fret sprout, you'd need a 1/4 sawn fretboard. One could imply that the neck shaft doesn't really at the fret level, unless you have one of those 1 piece with skunk stripe necks.


With regard to fret sprout - generally a flatsawn neck will expand across the width of the board, conversely a quartersawn neck will expand within it's thickness, and to a much lesser degree - therefore is is safe to say that generally you will have less fret sprout with quartersawn lumber.

If you've never had fret sprout you either have a climate controlled environment or haven't been playing long enough, sooner or later it happens to everyone.


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## TWRC (Apr 22, 2011)

I'm aware that having any sort of neck under adverse conditions can cause fret sprout, just trying to form a pro and con list to really justify ordering this neck with quarter sawn maple. I've only ever played flat sawn necks and have never had an issue with them and wanted to try something new. In reality, I don't know if I'm completely sold on the hype, but totally willing to spend the extra money and try.



LydianGuitars said:


> You have to remember that we're dealing with hard woods here. I've never had fret sprout on my guitar necks.
> 
> From what you're saying, to avoid fret sprout, you'd need a 1/4 sawn fretboard. One could imply that the neck shaft doesn't really at the fret level, unless you have one of those 1 piece with skunk stripe necks.


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## YJMUJRSRV (Jul 17, 2007)

gone fishing


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

Selecting the right piece, 1/4 sawn or flatsawn is crucial.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

This is not an issue that relates strictly to guitars, it’s an age old question answered ages ago, so someone who is a luthier but doesn’t have any woodworking experience outside of that is not in the best position to make the call, but should still be able to do so correctly. 


There is no myth or any other guitar-forum-bullshit that will change history... the Egyptians knew it, there are 200 year European old text books that spell it out, hell, in grade 8 industrial arts they spell it out...* the orientation of the grain versus the section view of the wood versus the direction of the stress is what’s important*.


So for a guitar neck, a quartered is generally best and to submit that this is incorrect reflects a lack of experience.

Talking in generalities quartersawn is best, of course being a forum where we like to split hairs you can make a case that certain flatsawn pieces are better than certain quartered pieces but it ends there... making the point that Maple moves a lot makes the case even further for quartered materials...

Of course I’d love to hear some technical explanations that involve facts and support alternate views, but none are forthcoming...


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

YJMUJRSRV said:


> I have made a lot of maple necks. When it comes to necks your wood needs to be dry and stable. So the movement this way or that way will be minimal at best with properly dried wood. I have never bought into the quartersawn is more rigid argument. This includes mahogany. Yes, technically and traditionally is believed that quartersawn is more rigid. However in practice I have not proven this to be so. What is far more important is the wood be dry and seasoned. This will likely not be the case with the manufacturer you mentioned. Maple is a funny wood. It loves to bend. The worst offenders I have witnessed are quartered pieces. If there is any stress in maple it will warp - I guarantee you this. The answer for necks is not to use maple with stress (aka reaction wood). How do you know? You can tell by looking at it usually. To know for sure you buy dry maple. Then you store maple a year in your build environment, then you season the maple to final moisture content. Then you mill it but not to final dimension. In all these steps stress will make itself evident and you can weed out problem boards. Once maple has gone thru all the proper steps, is recognized as stable and milled flat, it will be stable forever with normal care. It doesn't really matter how it is cut IMO. Warped necks happen for two reasons; abuse and a bad board to begin with. This is why manufacturers were having such problems in the 70's. As they grew and pumped out product they simply had no time to season lumber as before. They were buying all they could get and took what they were given. It became product very fast and thus bad boards were not weeded out. Maple is a funny wood as mentioned but once stable stays that way unless you leave it in your truck on a hot day. Any built in stress will return if abused. Overall its far more important that the manufacture be correct. This is all just my opinion. I have done several replica Teles with no truss rod. The necks are vintage "bats" 1" thick at the spine. Zero problems. Even in Ontarios climate swings they move very little. All flat sawn. Just my opinions.


Makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for taking the time to post. I haven't seen you posting here for awhile so welcome back.


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## doriangrey (Mar 29, 2011)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I would jump on the quartersawn is superior bandwagon. It is more stable, rigid and less prone to movement with humidity changes.


...I agree with all of that - plus it's prettier =)


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

If you still haven't made your decision. Google: *quarter sawn vs. flat sawn guitar necks
*
Lots of opinions if you've got the time to read through them.



TWRC said:


> I've never owned a quarter sawn neck before and have heard some conflicting stories about why one should or should not go with a quarter sawn neck. I will be ordering a Strat neck from Musikraft for my new build and thought that this would be a nice option because I really like the look of the grain pattern.
> 
> However, is there anyone out there that has any experience with quarter sawn necks and more importantly on the structural aspects of this type of cut? I don't want to spark a tone debate, but want to know if someone on here has ever had a bad experience with this cut.
> 
> Thanks!


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

doriangrey said:


> ...I agree with all of that - plus it's prettier =)


Not really - Flame and Birdseye has to be flatsawn to get the most out of the grain.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

I see no point in noting that the lumber, any lumber to be used in a neck, should be seasoned and worked properly, it’s a given and really has no relevance in the conversation as it's an assumed starting point, so I left it out of my earlier posts.


In order to get the full benefit of the discussion, you could leave out the terms “flat” and “quarter” sawn for the following reason – if I have a 3” square block of wood and I’m looking at the endgrain – if it’s horizontal I can call it flatsawn, but if I rotate it 90 degrees so the grain is now vertical I could call that same piece quartersawn, so how it is sawn or named is irrelevant.

Increasing the scope of our thoughts to the world outside guitars leads us to what is relevant and answering the question; which grain orientation is best for a guitar neck?. 


Wood engineering 101 and 1000’s of years of history and experience teaches us that when we’re inducing a stress or force on a piece of lumber, it is best handled by the edge grain, not the face grain, and that the stock behind it should be shaped accordingly – we’re surrounded by the evidence of this every day, it’s a proven principle and practice of engineering and arguing the point is, well it’s pointless.


Therefore, “generally” vertical grain would be the correct orientation for a guitar neck, and to get the maximum benefit it should run as perpendicular to the fret board as possible.

The rest of it is up in the air, how does it change the tone etc, all that stuff, but the grain orientation is something that should be obvious to everyone who care to think about it. Except that stuff like this just keeps getting tossed out there...

*“Yes, technically and traditionally is believed that quartersawn is more rigid. However in practice I have not proven this to be so”*

Consequently we’re still talking about it like wood hasn’t been a building product for centuries, that somehow in the world of guitars it's different, science, engineering and facts don't apply???

News Flash; It’s not about “rigid” or what you've "proven", it’s about cutting the wood to handle the stress and force induced by the strings, that is all.


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## Ian John (Aug 11, 2009)

There is a difference in a tree in the middle of the forest and one out on its own...quarter sawn takes the guessing game away. A twist in the board could just be the prevailing wind! Maybe too close to the heart??


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Empirical evidence that I have gathered through my woodworking and associated forums suggests that most problems with wood comes from poor drying procedures. 

Like I said in the beginning, I would prefer the quartersawn but would not discount flatsawn totally.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Empirical evidence that I have gathered through my woodworking and associated forums suggests that most problems with wood comes from poor drying procedures.


Agreed. That and a properly sealed neck makes a big difference, but in saying that, my old Ibanez Jem unfinished neck has stood the test of time, although with changes in humidity level, you can sometimes feel/see a very slight difference in width in the ebony vs maple. Its is flatsawn and has never warped or twisted (but has developped "fenderitis", like most Fenders but that extra long fretboard overhang didn't help). Never had fret sprout on the ebony fingerboard. For a 26yr old guitar, that's very good IMO. The maple piece on that guitar isn't the most rigid, but then again, those necks are thinner than the typical fender neck.

The 16 year old Fender Strat Ultra neck, which is also flatsawn, has been a very stable neck, but its not really a one piece maple shaft. The walnut skunk stripe adds stability to those Fender necks.

In general, for stability, I always laminate my necks unless a customer specifically asks for a 1 piece shaft and in that case, I look for something as close to 1/4 sawn with proper grain as possible but if I find a nice flatsawn piece with good grain and no runout, I'll use it. 

In terms of furniture and general woodworking, I've never had the need for anything but flatsawn and that includes cabinetry. 

One thing I learned with wood is that you can tell a lot about a piece when you cut it. If it moves too much after a cut, the internal stresses of the wood are too great and that piece should be discarded.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Cabinets and other woodworking is a whole other ball game. I may be the odd guy out here, but I find that miles of quartersawn straight grain oak gets pretty boring to look at. Give me some knots and figure please, or how about some burl?


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Guy’s 35 years in the cabinetmaking and custom fabrication industry tells me you’re not considering something... when ordering lumber for a batch of chairs or casework, for boat or airplane parts, or what have you, you’re not ordering quartersawn materials per se, in fact if your smart you’re ordering flat sawn because it’s cheaper and more readily available... but what you’re doing when building is orienting the grain in the proper direction which effectively uses the material as quartersawn stock. 


So while you’re making say a face frame for a cabinet, a leg for a chair, a transome stabilizer for a mahogany boat or wing strut for an old airplane, you’re taking a flat sawn piece and using it on edge... in other words you’re using it as “quartersawn” by having the “edge grain” take the stress... 

Think about it, any flat sawn piece is quartersawn when turned on edge... like I mentioned earlier, it’s not about what you call the cut of the lumber, it’s about which way you orient the grain in the finished product, so ya, the furniture industry makes extensive used of this particular cut, even if they don’t buy it that way.

PS. I don't think "woodworking" really is a different ballpark to guitars, in fact a classically trained experienced cabinetmaker gets a kick out of the simplicity of guitars.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Well, you would not want a knot in your neck is what I was getting at. I've seen some pretty nice figured woods used on bodies though.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

Jimmy_D said:


> PS. I don't think "woodworking" really is a different ballpark to guitars, in fact a classically trained experienced cabinetmaker gets a kick out of the simplicity of guitars.


Depending on the joinery, for sure!


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