# Help with Chord Progression and Song Creation



## tomsy49 (Apr 2, 2015)

I have been playing mostly covers and have wrote a few acoustic tunes but i am looking to start expanding my playing knowledge and am looking for a video series (paid or free) that would help me to learn some interesting chord progressions. I understand chord progressions and keys and whatnot but i can never think of in terms of "oh i have a great idea for a song in the key of blank". I know my open and Barre Chords and know 7th chords and but i always am drawn to different chord voicings and arpeggios higher on the neck that i see people play on youtube and whatnot but i just am not adept at this type of thing. Any suggestions??


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Can you post an example of one of the videos you're drawn to?


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## tomsy49 (Apr 2, 2015)

Just as an example 






At 3:00 he plays some barre chords with hammer ons and pull offs but he also plays some other chord shapes that im not familiar with


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Honestly, there's no magic formula. Learn your theory. Learn WHY certain chords work together. Learn when to break the rules.

Here's an excerpt from a guitar theory book I've had for 23 years. I keep it on the back of the toilet and look at this particular section ALL the time. I've bolded some terms you should look into in greater depth if you so desire.

...On Creating Chord Progressions

1. Pay attention to how the bass notes move in your song. Make sure the bass line is singable and is made up of root movements which are mostly *P4th*, *P5th* and *2nd* apart. *3rds* are fine every so often.
2. Try to work with an even number of bar groupings such as 4, 8, 12 or 16 measure phrases.
3. Establish the key often by using *V* and *VII chords* which resolve to *tonic chords*.
4. Strive for a strong sense of *harmonic rhythm*.
5. Use *common chord tone substitution* to add interest and variety to the progression.
6. Use *dominant 7* and *diminished 7* chords as *secondary dominants* for increased harmonic momentum.
7. Use the *tritone substitution chord* in place of the normal V-I resolution.
8. Using *borrowed chords* is also a good way to make your progression sound fresh and different.
9. Random *chord quality* changes also add interest to chord progressions.
10. Analyze and learn other songs to see what "tricks" were used to create the chord progression. Try to figure out where the chords came from. Is the progression logical or quirky?
11. Using chords in *inversion* will result in more independent bass lines. Don't get locked into always using root position chord forms. Using inversions will promote a smoother flow from chord to chord.
12. Trust your ear. Learn the theoretical possibilities normally followed by songwriters, but don't be afraid to break the rules. If it sounds good to you, then go with it.

Personally, once I learned "a little theory", I found #10 to be the most useful. Picking apart songs and figuring out how the chords work together and their role in the whole helps you find exclusions to the rules that still work wonderfully, often in unexpected and magical ways. Look at lots of Beatles songs for example, sure you can play a dumb-ed down version and skip all the interesting little things they do, but then they lose the magic that made them so special and unique.


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## mister.zed (Jun 8, 2011)

I bought How to Write Songs on Guitar by Rikky Rooksby on a whim when I saw it at Steve's in Toronto about 10 years ago and found it immensely helpful when I was starting out. I often still refer to it when I'm stuck or want some easy inspiration. He covers keys, structure, common turn arounds, even a bit on lyrics and he breaks down the structure of hundreds of songs you know. 

I cannot recommend this book enough and it doesn't cost the moon.

In providing the link above, I saw that there is an updated edition. Dang. That's making my wallet finger itchy.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I might have to check that one out myself...


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

I've always struggled with this too. Every now and then I stumble on a single neat chord that inspires me, but I can't never get a good chord progression out of it. 

The neat A chord from Blue Rodeo's Try always makes me want to write music. That chord just gets me, especially with a bit of tremolo and reverb on it.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

What's the chord? I know what one you're talking about...pretty chord.


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## mister.zed (Jun 8, 2011)

'They say there was a secret chord... that David played and it pleased the Lord' -L.C.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

I guess you can write a melody based on a chord progression but to me that's silly...
I would first create a melody and then figure out the chords that complement the melody.
THats what chords do...the provide a background for the melody.
A lead line either copies or complements the melody or it can create a free style melody based on the chords.

_"oh i have a great idea for a song in the key of blank"_

The above line only makes sense if you write an instrumental and for some reason, the Key of the song has some advantages in the 
actual playing for a particular instrument.

In a song with vocals, the key is adapted to the singer so that the range of the song ( lowest notes and highest notes)
are withing a comfortable reach for that particular singer.
Changing keys of a song does not change the melody. Its just a tool.
Every singer has a comfortable singing range... if a song is originally in the key of A and the singer cant reach the bridge portion notes, then you will have to drop the key to G and see if that helps. If not, drop the key another tone until you reach the workable range. 

thats all I know.
G.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

JBFairthorne said:


> What's the chord? I know what one you're talking about...pretty chord.


It's a regular E shape bar chord at the 5th fret, but you lift the bar so the high E and B string ring open.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

So an A with the high E and B open?


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

JBFairthorne said:


> What's the chord? I know what one you're talking about...pretty chord.


Most books call it an A add 9 NOT an A9
A(6) E(5) A(4) C#(3) B(2) E (1)
1st, 5th, 1st, 3rd 9th 5th

The same fingering works nicely at the 3rd fret G, the 8th fret C and the 12 fret E. This formation has different names at the other positions maybe not add 9.


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## purpleplexi (Nov 5, 2014)

You could try something like this:

- Pick a song you really like, sit down with a pad and paper and sketch out how it goes (intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, chorus - however it goes).
-Jot out the chords used in each section (Intro: C-G-D, Verse: C-G-Em, Chorus: G-D-C, Bridge: Em, D, G for example)

Now, take all the info and use this already completed song to write your own. Don't use the exact same chord progressions and make your own riffs and parts.

This will help you see how a hit song works with different chords and keys and key changes.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Good advise, but I'll add, "identify the chords in relation to the key" as well. What I mean is, figure out the I, II, III, IV, V etc.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

JBFairthorne said:


> Good advise, but I'll add, "identify the chords in relation to the key" as well. What I mean is, figure out the I, II, III, IV, V etc.


Yeah. I agree. I tend to also find the relationship to both relative Minor key in given major, or vice versa, as well as Modal relationships. The only issue with this approach is you have to have a pretty damn good basis in some theory and the practice of it. But it can be simplified as well with the same effect. That's just one of many song writing approaches though.


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

GTmaker said:


> I guess you can write a melody based on a chord progression but to me that's silly...
> I would first create a melody and then figure out the chords that complement the melody.
> THats what chords do...the provide a background for the melody.
> A lead line either copies or complements the melody or it can create a free style melody based on the chords.
> ...


Melody rules. That's what the greats say. 

Then again it's often inspiring chords and riffs that compel the melodies out of us.


To gtmaker's point about the silliness of writing the progression before the melody. Often times acapela singing within a key is difficult even for the experiences basement warrior. If you don't confidently know what key you're in, you will often arrive at a melody with "wonky" notes. 

Now if your playing a diatonic instrument (stays in one key like a harmonica or some dulcimers) it would be easier. 

I find that the chord progression is like the framing of a house. It allows for a strong framework to launch the masterpiece. 

Heck if you look at nirvana's songs, many are all over the place with the only string between chords that make sense are the melody notes. When studied, one realizes that the funky ones are all borrowed chords and can be explain.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

You can write either way. I've taken a melody that someone's written and put chords to it. However, not being much of a lyric writer, if I'm noodling around, a song starts with a chord progression. The chord progression will often "suggest" a melody. The melody is almost always the "hook" though.


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## Percy (Feb 18, 2013)

Do you know the definitive triads of the key[three note chords of the key area]?This is where i would start......


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## DeSelby (May 4, 2016)

May I ask, who are your influences. Because it makes a difference. Melody, lyrics, rhythm, progressions, they all play a part. Just the first word, 'Yesterday', suggests a rhythm. And I think the Beatles, who I have never really listened to that much, wrote in a typically Tin Pan Alley fashion. Especially Mccartney. Smart changes but I find the overbearing effect saccharine. My favourite Beatles tune is 'In My Life' because the lyrics, melody, harmony and rhythm work to create a work of great poignancy. Joni Mitchell used a lot of sus chords in her writing and it gives her compositions a certain lightness which is offset by the grit of her lyrics. Dylan's songs were never harmonically complex but his lyrics could be of such brilliant vividness that his songs spoke. Irving Berlin, who wrote over 1500 songs and is a standard of the 'Standards' songbook, only played on the black keys on the piano, the key of F#. He is reputed to have said that 'the white notes are only for theorists'. But the melody and lyrics of 'Blue Skies' are aching. And theory is a useful guide. Understanding how major and minor scales are harmonized using 3 and 4 note voicings is really helpful. Take a C major scale and step up through the 3 note voicings, C-Dm-Em-F-Am-Bm-C, then again using 4 note voicings, will give you an understanding of the underlying relationships. If you think there is a good teacher where you are and that you can afford lessons, a year will stand you in much better stead than a lifetime of videos. You will then be in a much better position to assimilate and interpret not only videos but whatever you listen to and want to play and create. And to be clear. I am not a teacher. I was in my 40's when I took my first guitar lessons after having played nigh on 30 years. And it was one of the most constructive things I ever did. So thank you Gabe. I'm sure you're up there.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

My brain hurts...


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## DeSelby (May 4, 2016)

JBFairthorne said:


> My brain hurts...


aawh, my feelings are hurt ...


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## Guest (Jul 18, 2016)




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## DeSelby (May 4, 2016)

laristotle said:


>


rotflmao ...


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## DeSelby (May 4, 2016)

tomsy49 said:


> Just as an example
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, this is going to be again a 'brain hurting' response but in the spirit of trying to be constructive... Nothing he is playing is outside. He gets some really nice sounds using standard 9ths and sus chords. And using hammer ons and pull offs are just a way of changing one chord voicing to another.

You have to use your ears. 3 note majors and minors and their associated inversions are meat and potatoes. But it's when you start adding notes that things get interesting. Simplest case first. A dominant 7th. Standard major or minor with a flat 7.

Why so much goodness. Because it wants to go somewhere. And at the heart of harmony is resolution. Progressions have a direction. And one of the most interesting things that can happen is when our expectations are subverted. We are so used to certain resolutions that when the changes go somewhere unexpected our interest is piqued. 

Coming back to your question, my suggestion of a teacher notwithstanding, there are some great tools available that I find really useful. First would be Transcribe! It's been around for years and runs on PCs, macs and linux. It's an absolutely brilliant piece of software. You can slow down and isolate passages. It can be helpful in a multitude of ways. As an example, after downloading the video you provided you could then take a fragment with a chord you were interested and loop until you could match the voicing. It handles video as well which works well for longer segments but is not as useful for very short fragments. If you have an ipad there are 2 other programs that are like Transcribe! but to my mind are not quite as useful. The first is an app called "Beat Time". It will slow things down but I don't use it for that. I find it pretty much unusable in that capacity. But it has one killer feature. You can download videos from youtube, and save the audio which can then be imported into another app. And the best I have found to date is Anytune Pro. I'm chuffed to say it is developed in Ottawa and it really is a wonderful piece of software. 

So, I don't know if anything is of help but for what it's worth. cheers. ...


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## tomsy49 (Apr 2, 2015)

Appreciate the responses! Small town sask and i don't know of any teachers around but i will definitely look into it more when i have a bit more time.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Honestly, the biggest plus that a teacher provides is a kick in the ass to actually sit down and learn something...because you need to know it for next week (imo). Sometimes it can be really hard to self-motivate to practice/learn just for practice/learning's sake. I've never had a teacher, but I get the same effect from my weekly jam group...as long as they keep adding new material and don't stagnate with the same stuff week after week after month after month. I love learning new material because it's learning a skill within a context (the most effective method for me) but even then, sometimes it's hard to self-motivate and actually learn something new off of my EVER GROWING list of songs to "get around to".


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Some great responses here. I'll also add that guitar teachers are typically in the same boat of self motivation and learning constantly.

But to the point of the original question, I find everything I've learned by myself, have been taught, and taught to students over the years has some effect on your song writing. Personality comes in as well. As an example, I constantly find myself trying my damndest to try NOT to sound like anyone else, even if a particular artists song has inspired me to do something. Style, taste, theory, practice, musicianship, listening skills, learning skills, chord and scale relationships, human relationships, melody, harmony, dissonance, mood, tempo, timbre, what your audience wants, etc.....will effect the outcome. Certainly isn't cookie cutter material IMO.


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