# singers <, > or = musicians



## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

***EDITING THIS A LITTLE AGAIN***

*D'Oh, I should have just posted the poll without these comments >.<!*


Hey I just HAD to hop on this one  (I hate the letter E)

* I have some strong feelings on this, but they seem skewed even to me.* 

I would say if you do nothing more than parrot other peoples works, it is questionable if you are even an artist. In a way, parroting is like painting by the numbers. _<< I SHOULD HAVE BEEN CLEARER HERE, I mean people that can not do it entirely on their own, who need to be lead, hand held, given the goods to perform.
_ 
*There are people that feel paint by numbers is art. Some I will agree can be...*

However, what about people that not only parrot works, but do so with the aid of 1000's of dollars in computer software? 
So, here is a poll 


EDIT** I have no lip sync here, that would be another poll entirely


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Singers are the most important musicians because they interface with the peoples. Obviously from this poll it creates jealousy, but there you go............


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## Guest (Jun 26, 2009)

For real? In most of the bands I've been in the singer was the _primary_ song writer and certainly the _only_ lyric writer. It shows in my % allocations in my SOCAN-registered songs. :smile:


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## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

you mentioned the word "artist" in your post - but not in the poll....I'll stick to "musician" as the poll's query.

I voted all of the above. 

a singer is a musician like any other.....

like all other musicians in a band - a singers contribution is no different than a drummer's or a guitarist

music production does not discriminate which instrument is edited by the $1000's in software (no need to cite examples - but I will anyway - Lars' drums on Metallica's black album) 

I play guitar - I play covers - call me a parrot.....tell me I'm not an artist - I don't care....but I am creating music - so - I'm a musician (a hobby musician - but a musician nonetheless)


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

When playing in original bands in a previous life, I always felt that the singer had the most impact on the sound of songs that we were writing together. Frequently we'd be struggling to come up with something good on a new song, but, if the lyricist/singer came up with a good melody line, it immediately seemed to elevate the song to a new level. I guess you could say the same thing about a good guitar line, or a funky bass line, but it always felt to me like the vocal melody/lyric had the greatest impact.

Of course, not all singers/lyricists have this talent! (I used 'talent' in this case for Mr Henmans benefit).


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

You could apply the poll questions to any musician on any instrument. Finding a good singer is as tough if not tougher than most any other common instrument and it's very noticeable when it doesn't happen.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

If anyone else can be called a musician, so can singers. Musicians aren't _necessarily_ defined by ability, skill, originality, or creativity. Most of us came into the world with a voice, some of us use it to sing.

Fwiw, I encourage my instrument students early to consider themselves musicians in order that they take themselves and their music seriously. I see no reason why vocal students shouldn't be likewise encouraged.

Peace, Mooh.


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## The Usual (May 14, 2008)

Talk about a can of worms.

Singers are musicians, given they play the most sophisticated, well tuned, and powerful instrument in existance, the human voice. It is also the most difficult instrument to learn and master, as you can not see it, touch it, and no 2 are alike. There is nothing more difficult in the musical world, than mastering the voice. 

Youtube Pavarotti and friends. I recommend It's A Man's World with James brown. You will see what a virtuoso of the human voice is. 

Which touches on another point. While I am not a fan of cover tunes, and appreciate the artistry in original music, classical music does point out that artisty can also be found in individual inflection over a standard song.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

lbrown1 said:


> *you mentioned the word "artist" in your post - but not in the poll....I'll stick to "musician" as the poll's query.
> *
> I voted all of the above.
> 
> ...



OOps, I view them as the same actually so use the word interchangeably.

I voted for "in the subway" myself. That is where, to me, talent is shown, clean and simple, no matter if you are playing your own works or someone elses. Those subway musicians have a LOT of respect from me. When I think of the "1000's" I not only think of Ashley Simpson (that girl at least knows how to clog dance) but also of Sid Vicious. LOL He was a visual part of Sex Pistols but his guitar was never plugged in. Or how about Milli Vanilli, those buff guys were only looks.

I do appreciate people that are singers AND songwritters combined, however there are some people who simply can indeed SING and those people I feel are amazing as such. I would love to see Andrea Bocelli perform, or Sarah Brightman, or Hayley Westenra, or The Celtic Women or Anonymous 4, or any such tremendously voice tallented peoples.


 I opened a can of worms, I know (said that when I redirected to this poll that was born from the MJ thread). I think it is a good thing to on occasion question the world around you. For myself, I cannot lead a life unexamined  and sometimes I look at me and I don't like me very much, and other times I look at me and ...


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I dont have as much of a problem with "parroting" as you do, as long as its good. 

I judge more on the technique/skill involved in using the voice, whether its original or not.

In that sense, to me, the guy from the Phillipines that was in a cover band "Zoo" who got hired via youtube to replace Steve Perry in Journey is 100x a better singer than say, Mick Jagger or Ozzy Osbourne, though obviously many people like the sound/style of their voice, but IMO have very little actual talent beyond their personas. I think from a purely musical perspective, they're both horrible in spite of their originality.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i sit at home and play along with my cd player. i say that i am not an artist. i am definitely painting by the numbers. when i have better honed my ability to the point where i can create on a level that pleases me, then i'll be an artist. right now i'm just a bad guitarist. hwopv


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Diablo said:


> I dont have as much of a problem with "parroting" as you do, as long as its good.
> 
> I judge more on the technique/skill involved in using the voice, whether its original or not.
> 
> In that sense, to me, the guy from the Phillipines that was in a cover band "Zoo" who got hired via youtube to replace Steve Perry in Journey is 100x a better singer than say, Mick Jagger or Ozzy Osbourne, though obviously many people like the sound/style of their voice, but IMO have very little actual talent beyond their personas. I think from a purely musical perspective, they're both horrible in spite of their originality.



Ah see, I was thinking of bands, such as the European bands that speak no English singing English songs or bands like Milli Vanilli when I think of parroting. The corporate creations where it is an image that is sold and any ability is secondary to the production.

I should have made the voting public on this one >.< I voted 'subway' because that is how I feel too. If you have talent, it shows, no matter if you wrote it yourself or not.

Of course I also like William Shatner, William Hung, Yoko Ono, and a variety of other people whom it may be questioned if they could sing or not >_>


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

In general singers are musicians.

But playing an instrument doesn't necessarily make one a musician, nor does the ability to sing.

It's in how you use it, and in your attitude.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

keeperofthegood said:


> Ah see, I was thinking of bands, such as the European bands that speak no English singing English songs or bands like Milli Vanilli when I think of parroting. The corporate creations where it is an image that is sold and any ability is secondary to the production.
> 
> I should have made the voting public on this one >.< I voted 'subway' because that is how I feel too. If you have talent, it shows, no matter if you wrote it yourself or not.
> 
> *Of course I also like William Shatner, William Hung, Yoko Ono, and a variety of other people whom it may be questioned if they could sing or not* >_>


You do, really? What do you like about them?


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Diablo said:


> You do, really? What do you like about them?


Odd as it is to say, and yes this is where when I said in my first post my views seem skewed even to me, I do like experimental music and musicians that expand outside the box, try to redefine their fields, or are unappologetic in who they are and in their way wish to only be taken as themselves.

It is like ... Ok, plastic surgery and body augmentation can make a person "look" great, but to me they are ... ugly on a lot of levels. I think the only 'surgical' betterment I can really appreciat is when dealing with bad accidents or health. I have had known many women and men deal with cancer or accidents that has left their bodys cut away and for them, the loss of a limb, a breast, sections of muscle is very traumatic and in their casses a plastic surgeon can be a saviour. 

A person can have lop sided body parts, bad complexion, gaps in their teeth, and still be beautiful to me simply for the attitude they carry themselves with.

Same feeling applies to singers for me. Using 1000's of dollars in machines to "be good" is to me ugly, lip synch is ugly, using other people to sing for you while you pantomime is ugly (unless you happen to be a mime of course). William Hung and his attitude when he stood up on stage and sang out his version of She Bangs I think coloured how I hear him when I hear him sing. William Shatner has a spoken word cadence in how he presents song (I think of it as more presentation than singing). Yoko Ono, gosh it has been years, but I once owned half a dozen vinyl albums of hers in my youth.

I also like Aphex Twin, Opphoi, Gabby Lala, Cocteau Twins, Ataraxia too, all bands/performers/singers that do not do "whats expected" and also do expand on what music could be.

kqoct I hope all that made sence


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Interesting. I get what you are saying when I read between the lines, about uniqueness, creativity and originality. But IMO, hitting notes out of key, articulating poorly, etc. reduce my perception of the musicality of the vocalist.
You're right, William Hungs attitude and charm were the keys to his viral popularity. But it would take more than that for me to appreciate his work as a singer.


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

Keeper, what do you think of a vocalist like Lou Reed? He's got a very unique vocal style that people either seem to like or dislike.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...some singers are genuine musicians. some are contestants.

:smile:


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

You forgot the kareokeists...


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Kenmac said:


> Keeper, what do you think of a vocalist like Lou Reed? He's got a very unique vocal style that people either seem to like or dislike.


Lou Reed is awesomesauce man! 

I have also found people either lover or hate Tom Waits too.

I have a dear friend in Sweden. As amazing as it is to me, she positivly hates both Tom Waits AND The Andrews Sisters. As opposit the ends of clean singing as you can swing and she can't stand either. 



Chito said:


> You forgot the kareokeists...


This lady http://www.youtube.com/user/ysabellabrave on youtube has had ALL her kareokies removed. TOS violations or some silliness like that. What remains is vlogs and some very few (too few) original works. Before she picked up a kareokie machine and a camera a couple years ago she had not sung before. She is an amazing natural, and kareokie gave her the ability to find that tallent. As a tool, I think kareokie is an amazing deal.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Earth to people, earth to people!!

When bands get together to practice, you know what they usually practice? *Songs*, not tunes. Why? Because whatever tune is embedded in the song is given focus and purpose by someone singing a lyric that defined the song. Now, I'm not denying that being willing to stand in front of an audience and emote without the protection of an instrument can sometimes be associated with, er, "character flaws" (see Axl Rose and the late MJ), but the question of whether you'd be willing to share an apartment with them, or whether it is easy or hard to convince them that their share of the tip really IS 44% even though there were 8 of you at the table, is entirely separate from how important they are as a musician to the song. Indeed, some of the greatest guitar solos *ever* (since that is often our collective focus here) were simply intended to be complements to what the singer was doing, and reinforce the musical idea the singer had already laid down. Of course, what makes BB King so great, and what made Stevie Ray Vaughan so great, was that they are/were both singer AND guitar player, so they have an insider tip about what to play.

Finally, there is a big beautiful world outside of hard-rock wanking, and you would be hard-pressed to convey to all those folks taking performance and even composition degrees in voice that they are somehow lesser musicians or some sort of second class citizen relative to anyone who bangs, bows, strums, or blows on something.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Some of my favorite singers are those that most folks would consider technically weak. Bob Dylan, Neil Young, Tom Waits, and Willie Nelson to name just a few. Of course I love Frank Sinatra, Aretha Franklin, Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, Joni Mitchell, Emmylou Harris, Ray Charles and George Jones to name but a few more. Whether your an opera star or a raspy blues singer, it's the ability to touch the listener in a profound way that is all important. If your trying to "say" something with your playing, than "wanking" won't likely be a feature of your music. SRV didn't have to sing a lick on his song "Riviera Paradise". 

Shawn


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Rugburn said:


> Some of my favorite singers are those that most folks would consider technically weak. Bob Dylan, Neil Young, Tom Waits, and Willie Nelson to name just a few. Of course I love Frank Sinatra, Aretha Franklin, Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, Joni Mitchell, Emmylou Harris, Ray Charles and George Jones to name but a few more. Whether your an opera star or a raspy blues singer, it's the ability to touch the listener in a profound way that is all important. If your trying to "say" something with your playing, than "wanking" won't likely be a feature of your music. SRV didn't have to sing a lick on his song "Riviera Paradise".
> 
> Shawn


And of course, some of the very best guitarists will tell you that they try to emulate singers. I think that says something.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

mhammer said:


> And of course, some of the very best guitarists will tell you that they try to emulate singers. I think that says something.


Miles Davis claimed to listen to Frank Sinatra as a source of inspiration for his phrasing. Of course just as many guitar players site horn and piano players as sources of influence. At the end of the day your either telling a story folks want to hear or your not. The more artists who've been successful at this, regardless of their chosen discipline, that one can incorporate into their playing the better they'll be at it.

Shawn :food-smiley-004:


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## Spikezone (Feb 2, 2006)

As far as I am concerned, the human voice IS a musical instrument, probably the most pure musical instrument (even though I'm not the greatest singer). Just like any other musical instrument, what comes into question is just HOW WELL an individual USES that musical instrument. So I guess my humble opinion is that singers ARE musicians as well, but the level of musicianship is the issue.
-Mikey


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

[youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQEDhQnxZxI]lQEDhQnxZxI[/youtube]

This poll pole gahh will live on. It came from a tongue in cheek comment in another thread now forgotten by someone else. The statement made "are singers even musicians" and I went *WOW GOOD TIME FOR A CONTROVERSIAL POLE* (or poll gahh).

:bow: don't hate me for kicking the hornets nest, it just was there and needed to be kicked.... you could say "John! John! Why'd you do it? Why'd you kick that hornets nest!?" and John would have to say "I don't know why I kicked that hornets nest. I didn't know it was a crime! I didn't mean to hurt no one! It seemed like a good idea; at the time, at the time, at the time, at the time"

>_>


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## megadan (Feb 5, 2006)

The problem is most singers can't.

The ones who can are 100% musicians just like anyone who can play an instrument with feeling.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

When ever I went to see bands, I was there for the guitar riffs (or a really good B3 solo). I can just as easily watch an instrumental band, or even more easily at times. But I guess for most, you need a singer(s), a drummer and musicians.



kkjuw


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