# No more Twinkies.



## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

After 80 years the Twinkie has finally reached it's expiry date. It and other Hostess products like Wonder Bread are toast. 'bout the only bright spot on the munchie horizon is they'll still be made in Canada.....for now.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

No big loss for me--haven't eaten on or had the desire to do so in years.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Electraglide said:


> After 80 years the Twinkie has finally reached it's expiry date. It and other Hostess products like Wonder Bread are toast. 'bout the only bright spot on the munchie horizon is they'll still be made in Canada.....for now.













corporate greed raises it's ugly head once again. man, we are circling the bowl and going down. there's no stopping or turning around the mess we're making. everyday the mad max pockyclipse gets closer and closerer


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Well, the union had an offer in its hands that it didnt even present to its members (I hear as many as 18,000) for a vote. Company said that was their best offer, union pointedly ignored modern labour reality and whoops.

Dunno about you, but I'd rather work for $1 less an hour than not work.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Corporate greed is always the union rally cry I guess. The reality is a little more complicated.

Speaking in generalities though, maintaining profitability is a challenge in many industries. Costs rise and the competitive nature of today's global marketplace continuously drives selling prices down.

Hostess is a business. Their margins obviously suffered from this double attack. I've seen in intimate detail, several similar conclusions right here in Canada.

But hey, they stuck to their guns eh!?


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## noman (Jul 24, 2006)

Feel bad for the workers but couldn't care less about the products........do people actually eat that crap? Wonderbread?? What part of bread is in that stuff??


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

The cynic in me wonders if this is just a grand marketing scheme. Sales of Twinkies in the US have skyrocketed since the announcement.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Read this a few years back. I've never liked Twinkies. This made me proud of my Twinkie disdain.

http://www.twinkiedeconstructed.com/Twinkiewebsite/Welcome.html


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## Guest (Nov 18, 2012)

So .. all those people who stored twinkies in their bomb 
shelters years ago will now be selling them on e-bay? lol.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

And what will we use as a cultural reference to describe Lady Ga Ga and her ilk now?


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

keto said:


> Well, the union had an offer in its hands that it didnt even present to its members (I hear as many as 18,000) for a vote. Company said that was their best offer, union pointedly ignored modern labour reality and whoops.
> 
> Dunno about you, but I'd rather work for $1 less an hour than not work.


well why not take the next step? move to maylasia or indonesia and go work for pennies a day like they do. you see, i know guys with the same attitude you're promoting. they work overtime hours for straight money. it's against the contract. but they do it because they know if they don't, they get laid off, like i am right now. thanks for that


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

ComplETELY different argument. One is accepting a contract or not, the other is totally illegal (not paying for OT). The workers doing the OT without pay will always and forever have a claim against the employer, if they keep good documentation, and have the ability to get paid for it in the future should they chose to pursue it.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Can't find the sources on short notice but not all of the 18,000 employees were unionized, it was more like one in three or four.

Like other companies on the verge of failure, the CEO took a huge 300% raise. Compared to 2% union demand, where's the fairness?

The company had been avoiding bankruptcy since 2004. Some pension obligations are not met.

Six CEOs in 10 years? Apparently none could make the company profitable.

Years ago union concessions provided the company with 100 million+ to help avoid failure. That money wasn't reinvested in the company.

If anyone else cares to find sources, I'd be interested in reading the real story. Blaming the union for every failure is unfair.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Some information here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostess_Brands

Peace, Mooh.


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## Krelf (Jul 3, 2012)

Among the assets they will sell are their brand names and formulas. Don't be surprised if Twinkies find their way back into the market again with similar packaging. The only difference is that they will be made by someone else. They may even be called Hostess Twinkies. Same for wonder bread, complete with its red. yellow and blue balloons!


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Mooh said:


> Can't find the sources on short notice but not all of the 18,000 employees were unionized, it was more like one in three or four.
> 
> Like other companies on the verge of failure, the CEO took a huge 300% raise. Compared to 2% union demand, where's the fairness?
> 
> ...


Good info, and not the spin I heard. Thanks. I agree that union blame is not always right....but it often is a large contributor. Anyways, an offer was definitely made that would have seen the company continue, and declined. By....oh never mind 

Krelf, we'll definitely see Twinkies and Wonderbread on the shelves in the not too distant future, my crystal ball says.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Mooh said:


> Can't find the sources on short notice but not all of the 18,000 employees were unionized, it was more like one in three or four.
> 
> *Like other companies on the verge of failure, the CEO took a huge 300% raise*. Compared to 2% union demand, where's the fairness?
> 
> ...


I am no expert on any of this, but I was reading an interesting article about these bonuses and failing companies. The just of it was that the bonuses are paid to keep people in change on board to basically go down with the ship. The premium is required to keep them there rather than job hunt when they know they company will be shutting down soon. Not saying it's right or wrong that or that I agree, it's just a but of info I had never heard before not knowing the ins and outs of corporations.

I am no union expert either and am not anti or pro union. But I find it scary when unions take action that result in people losing their jobs. It's better to have a job then no job.


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## Beach Bob (Sep 12, 2009)

If it makes anyone happier...we'll still have Twinkies, etc here in Canada. The products are licensed by Weston Bakeries and Saputo and production will continue. I would expect that Hostess will license production in the states and just become a holding company. Right or wrong, there is far too many problems with Hostess to try to be a going concern.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

1) Never had a Twinkie in my entire life. Not morally opposed. Just never had a reason.

2) Baked goods need to be more local to be of optimum quality. The trouble with large baked goods companies is that, once you presume that the product will have to travel great distances, and pass through multiple hands for distribution, you need to make the product more "resilient" to bacteria, and that, in turn, tends to degrade the quality of the product, not to mention the possibility of degrading the health of its consumers. And in the case of many Hostess brand products, their very squishiness is part of what makes them require the sort of chemical ingredients to provide that resilience. One of the reasons I live in Ottawa is Rideau Bakery. As a pre-schooler, my bedroom window was 3 doors down from one of their original locations, so I awoke to the smell of their bread and am pretty much "imprinted" on it. As bread it is a live fresh good for regional consumption, not a mummified product for national distribution. Their rye WILL show mold growth in a week if you don't freeze or refrigerate it (or eat it fast enough).

3) Sometimes, and maybe more often than you think, being a modest size business is best for long-term sustainability. Getting bigger is not everything. Hostess Brands is pretty dang big.

4) I noted from the wikipedia entry that they also produce that Seinfeld icon: Drakes Cakes.


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## kw_guitarguy (Apr 29, 2008)

This article gives some info from an employee's perspective...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/11/18/1162786/-Inside-the-Hostess-Bankery

~Andrew


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Pretty dismal. And also pretty emblematic of the increasing divide between have-a-lots and have-lesses.

The turnover in CEOs suggests a pretty sick board of governors, since it is their judgment that results in any of those 6 come-and-go CEOs being hired in the first place.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

kw_guitarguy said:


> This article gives some info from an employee's perspective...
> 
> http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/11/18/1162786/-Inside-the-Hostess-Bankery
> 
> ~Andrew


Jesus Christ. I take it all back.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Thanks for that link Andrew.

I find it pretty sad that a discussion about the demise of lousy snack cake degrades into yet another shot at a union.
Would you managerial yahoos take a loss of half of your wages? Mike? Kent?
Meanwhile, the real culprits, upper management and the company in general are without blame?
Idiot managers, gobbling up whatever bonuses they can get their hands on have nothing to do with the plant closure?

I'm sorry, you feel free to take you pot shots at unions, I'll take them back.

Stealing workers pensions, then claiming bankruptcy, classic greedy company tactics.
Check that link nay sayers, at the bottom there's a poll, see the results.

I'd sooner go look for another job than take that shit they tried to doll out, fascists.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Although I'm certainly not above it, I don't recall taking any shots at uinions in this thread.

I've been directly involved in plant closures from several perspectives, most recently with my present company. I have the benefit of being privy to the books this time so I know what the facts are in our case.

No, I don't generally accept pay cuts, but that's one of the great things about negotiating your own agreement. I'm not negotiating the merit of the collective, only mine.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

mhammer said:


> 1) Never had a Twinkie in my entire life. Not morally opposed. Just never had a reason.
> 
> 2) Baked goods need to be more local to be of optimum quality. The trouble with large baked goods companies is that, once you presume that the product will have to travel great distances, and pass through multiple hands for distribution, you need to make the product more "resilient" to bacteria, and that, in turn, tends to degrade the quality of the product, not to mention the possibility of degrading the health of its consumers. And in the case of many Hostess brand products, their very squishiness is part of what makes them require the sort of chemical ingredients to provide that resilience. One of the reasons I live in Ottawa is Rideau Bakery. As a pre-schooler, my bedroom window was 3 doors down from one of their original locations, so I awoke to the smell of their bread and am pretty much "imprinted" on it. As bread it is a live fresh good for regional consumption, not a mummified product for national distribution. Their rye WILL show mold growth in a week if you don't freeze or refrigerate it (or eat it fast enough).
> 
> ...


To be truthful, I can't say for sure if I've ever had a Twinkie either, but I did a lot of foolish things when I was younger...;-) I was a big Vachon consumer for a long time though. 

Ever been to The Golden Baguette on Bank Street? Vietnamese baked goods, plus some other lunch menu sorts of things. It was a little grubby last time I was there, but good nonetheless. Steady stream of customers.

Peace, Mooh.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

keto said:


> Jesus Christ. I take it all back.


well then so do i.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

thing is, i see it now, every 3 years when it comes time for the smwia to re negotiate our contract.
they always want to pay less. that keeps me from getting to pissed when i find out i'm not getting anything. the idea that at least i didn't _lose_ anything. except that gaining nothing means you're losing ground. i don't buy this "times are tough" bullshit. who are they tough for? me, that's who. i dont see any corporate fat cats like don ameche and ralph bellamy begging for change outside of eaton ctr.
bonus points for the first one to get that.

the price of bread, milk, and ttc tokens continue to rise, just like my rent. people make more and spend more than at any time i've ever read about. why are there hard times? it don't make no sense. education, experience, technology and mass production make me many times over more efficient and productive than when i started my trade, as well as my individual efforts at self betterment. i feel like a frog in a pot. i feel the water gettin warmer, but i cant get out. people like to say "toronto has more cranes on bldgs than any other city in the western world right now" still somehow, come late october early november, i find myself on EI.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Cheezy: Trading Places. C'mon, gimme a hard one.

Mooh, yes I know the place well. Friendly folks, decent food, decent prices. Sadly, much of what they sell is on the verboten list for me (diabetes). We used to have a Japanese bakery a little further north on the same street that made bread animals with a bar of chocolate inside every one. Made any child an instant ball of happiness.

Once again, I will note that maybe we adopt the wrong indicators of "progress", "wealth", civil society, and nationhood. In many respects the indicators we too often turn to are those that index the wealth of thw wealthy, but not necessarily the well-being of the other 99%. And as in so many areas of life, one tends to manage and direct in the direction of the indicators. "Education" is not fully indexed by the GPA of the graduating class. "Doing well" is not properly indexed by the number of bedrooms and size of your TV screen, independent of your debt load. "Profitability" and business success is not fully indexed by share prices or CEO salary. And national standard of living is not fully indexed by the DOW, NASDAQ, or the accrued wealth of the wealthiest citizens.


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## washburned (Oct 13, 2006)

I much prefer Vachon products. Canadian junk food.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

I know where you stand on issues such as this but you need to understand that you being able to say:



Milkman said:


> No, I don't generally accept pay cuts, but that's one of the great things about negotiating your own agreement. I'm not negotiating the merit of the collective, only mine.


...that in itelf is a luxury. It simply is not possible for everyone to do this. For many reasons too, not just the availability of people who are willing to do jobs for less but that is one major factor.

Despite being one of the best workers that every one of my employers have ever had, and the constant "we need good people/we are struggling to find good people" statements that I see supposedly being spoken by human resources people when interviewed...the unfortunate truth is (for the most part) "we need good people who will work for not much pay/benefits" or "we need people who are qualified up the ying yang".

If I could negotiate my own deal, I'm sure that I could do pretty well but it would only be a matter of time before someone at a desk realized "we can get 2 or 3 idiots to do this for the same cost of that one guy".


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I know someone on another forum who went on a Twinkies hunt (he's in the US) after hearing about this, made me chuckle.

I'd be worried, but;

a) I never buy them
b) I don't plan on needing to buy them
c) my girlfriend's roommate is a fantastic cook of baked goods, and always shares.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> I know where you stand on issues such as this but you need to understand that you being able to say:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe the key is to make yourself more valuable than 2 or 3 idiots.

Different approaches work for different people.

Nobody handed me such a bargaining position and it's important to understand that along with the ability to negotiate my own agreement come the risk of not being protected by a collective. My only protection is the knowledge and skills I have developed over the last .....well, too many years.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Twinkies are about the worst thing a person can eat as to food value. It's a good thing they are going out of business. Now, we just have to get rid of the 25,000 other junk foods being marketed at us and our children.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Milkman said:


> Maybe the key is to make yourself more valuable than 2 or 3 idiots.


Trouble is that every employee below HO is considered an inconsequential idiot to most large employers - nothing personal, mind you but that is a problem in itself. Most cutbacks begin with layoffs of hard working people at the lower eschelons instead of fat slicing of the real idiots at the top. Streamlining manufacturing inefficiencies and making a higher quality product never seems to occur to CEOs, CFOs, COOs and Execs. If there is a problem, it is generally at the top, but solving the problem at that level never seems to occur to them.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Maybe the key is to make yourself more valuable than 2 or 3 idiots.
> 
> Different approaches work for different people.
> 
> Nobody handed me such a bargaining position and it's important to understand that along with the ability to negotiate my own agreement come the risk of not being protected by a collective. My only protection is the knowledge and skills I have developed over the last .....well, too many years.


I am more valuable than 2 or 3 idiots. The problem is that corporate philosophy has changed and now it is 'cheaper is better no matter what'. I've seen it over and over and it comes out in the wash every time.

I am not suggesting that you were handed anything - in fact, I admire you for it. It is a luxury which 80% of the people in the world will never have (maybe more).

When I started working in 1986, I thought that all you had to do was work hard and do the best that you can do. Since my best was usually better than most people's bests, I figured that would get me pretty far. I suppose it has taken me quite a distance but it has never allowed me to have what I consider a secure life that most people could aspire to 30 years ago when corporate culture was such that you were hired by a company and became 'part of the family' so to speak. 

Companies used to indenture people into their organizations and they still could but corporate culture now is "if we can make 33% profit and we are only making 32% profit-let's do it regardless of the 'cost' ". The 'crash and burn the operation as we know it while we suck out every bit of money for ourselves' philosophy is very common these days, and I see it in the management of the corporation that I work for. Management doesn't seem to care where the operation goes as long as they get their nest eggs from it but when the dust settles, the employees are out looking for jobs that don't exist and the people who were 'managing' are well-off enough that they don't have to seek jobs. Strangely enough, they always seem to find other companies which hire them.

The 'collective' and the employer have an association. It need not be difficult. It is all decided before it is a contract. The only thing that is really required is following the contract which has been agreed upon but most people try to push the boundaries of such agreements and that does have a way of causing friction. 

As for 'protection' of the collective...I don't think there is any. Most people think "oh the Union will get that person his/her job back" but those sort of things take a lot of time and that person has to pay the bills while they are waiting for reinstatement. I'll tell you that I wouldnm't want to be put in that position...particularly in the geographic location that I am currently in, where people seem to consider $14 per hour 'pretty good'.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Specific to thwe Hostess thing:

_"Hostess’s failure was compounded by having six CEO’s in 8 years who had no experience in the bread or cake baking industry, and despite their financial woes, the company’s CEO got a 300% salary increase from $750,000 to $2,250,000"_

http://www.politicususa.com/romney-vulture-capitalist-style-management-killed-hostess-unions.html

The employees were making under $20 an hour and the 'deal' that the corporation wanted them to accept was essentially going to cut that almost in half over a few years. $20 an hour was good money 15 years ago. Everything goes up except working people's wages...and white collar wages always go up too.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

bluzfish said:


> Trouble is that every employee below HO is considered an inconsequential idiot to most large employers - nothing personal, mind you but that is a problem in itself. Most cutbacks begin with layoffs of hard working people at the lower eschelons instead of fat slicing of the real idiots at the top. Streamlining manufacturing inefficiencies and making a higher quality product never seems to occur to CEOs, CFOs, COOs and Execs. If there is a problem, it is generally at the top, but solving the problem at that level never seems to occur to them.


I've seen quite the opposite in several cases. When layoffs occur in a union facility they go in order of lowest seniority.

Management does not have the flexibility of keeping the good workers and laying off the dead wood.

And, yes, dead wood exists in both management AND labour.

Had we been allowed that flexibility we would have definitely kept good people for longer and conceiveably would have been more profitable, especially near the end, when all we had left was the militant union guys.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

the company i was just laid of from is adelt mechanical in missisauga. for the past year they had a huge chunk of all the work in the downtown core. for example, at one point this summer they had *130 sheetmetal workers* at st mike's hospital working around the clock. this summer as i worked every day i was continually told to plan on being employed long term, as the company had far more work than they could handle. as late as sept i was asked to help recruit employees. 
literally weeks later i was told there was almost no works on the books and when my current assignment was completed (holt renfrew in the yorkdale mall) i would be laid off. i called other forman to see if i could jump to another crew and got the same story from all of them. all were wondering how long they'd have a job. may guys were laid off before i was. 
getting laid off has a whole lot more to do with who you're blowin' than how much work gets done.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

smorgdonkey said:


> Specific to thwe Hostess thing:
> 
> _"Hostess’s failure was compounded by having six CEO’s in 8 years who had no experience in the bread or cake baking industry, and despite their financial woes, the company’s CEO got a 300% salary increase from $750,000 to $2,250,000"_



You would think they would have learned. http://www.gladwell.com/2002/2002_07_22_a_talent.htm



> the company i was just laid of from is adelt mechanical in missisauga. for the past year they had a huge chunk of all the work in the downtown core. for example, at one point this summer they had *130 sheetmetal workers* at st mike's hospital working around the clock. this summer as i worked every day i was continually told to plan on being employed long term, as the company had far more work than they could handle. as late as sept i was asked to help recruit employees.
> literally weeks later i was told there was almost no works on the books and when my current assignment was completed (holt renfrew in the yorkdale mall) i would be laid off. i called other forman to see if i could jump to another crew and got the same story from all of them. all were wondering how long they'd have a job. may guys were laid off before i was.


Seems to me there were some serious problems in management in your former organization if they either had so little foresight as to overextend themselves that way. On the other hand, I see the company was bought by a much larger international firm in February of this year, and that conglomerate seems to be spread out pretty thinly. To whit: http://www.gdfsuez.com/en/ It would seem, at least from afar, that you were the victim of an acquisition.

While it's not at all funny, these sorts of things remind me of the Simpsons episode where Homer starts up a small web-based company that doesn't really do anything, but attracts the attention of Gates and Microsoft, who offers to buy Homer out. Gates and his henchmen arrive at the Simpson home, and while Homer is all atwitter with the prospect of riches coming his way, Gates yells at the henchmen "Buy him out, boys!", whereupon they trash the place. Mergers and acquisitions get pitched as wonderful opportunities, but all too often they are simply excuses to eliminate competition by HR strangulation.

Henry Mintzberg, one of the godfathers of management at McGill, has plenty of uncomplimentary things to say about what the management and business schools are churning out these days.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Milkman said:


> I've seen quite the opposite in several cases. When layoffs occur in a union facility they go in order of lowest seniority.
> 
> Management does not have the flexibility of keeping the good workers and laying off the dead wood.
> 
> ...



This is why stipulated MOST employers consider employees as disposable. In my experience, companies with a CEO who started a company with a vision do indeed put great value in having good hard working employees who often share the vision and are indeed treated like family. In those companies, shareholders invest in the company because they believe in the success of the vision and will put their trust in the CEO's decisions.

However, as soon as a company goes public, the tables turn and investers invest purely on the basis of how much money they can make. The tail begins wagging the dog and all decisions become based on the bottom line. That is when employees become as disposable as the equipment they are working on or the job that isn't profitable enough for their liking.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> I am more valuable than 2 or 3 idiots. The problem is that corporate philosophy has changed and now it is 'cheaper is better no matter what'. I've seen it over and over and it comes out in the wash every time.
> 
> I am not suggesting that you were handed anything - in fact, I admire you for it. It is a luxury which 80% of the people in the world will never have (maybe more).
> 
> ...


Everyone will have varying experiences with unions. Mine tells me that unions do indeed protect the worst of their workers more than their best. Why? Because they need it. it's not a matter of whether or not they deserve it.

If your company doesn't recognize that you ARE worth more than 2 or 3 idiots, which I prosume you are, it's time to look for another employer.

I've been extremely lucky I guess. I've worked most of my career for two companies, both of which treated me like gold as far as I'm concerned.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Everyone will have varying experiences with unions. Mine tells me that unions do indeed protect the worst of their workers more than their best. Why? Because they need it. it's not a matter of whether or not they deserve it.


I can't argue with that...at the same time, they were the ones who negotiated the wages and benefits - if they weren't there, the company would be paying nothing close to what I am worth. It's a fine line and it would indeed be lovely if the worst could just be let go. 



Milkman said:


> If your company doesn't recognize that you ARE worth more than 2 or 3 idiots, which I prosume you are, it's time to look for another employer.


Unfortunately, there aren't others around which will offer me anything close to what I make now. I moved here because my oparents are in this province and they are getting older - if I could convince them to move to Calgary they'd already be there.

I have applied at places that I thought might present me with the offer of a position (one which manufactures solar panels and another that produced fish oil capsules) and didn't even get a 'thanks for your resumé'.


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