# Who thinks that the after market pickup craze is mostly hype



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Seymour Duncan, keystones, Bill Lawrence, Kinman, etc..

I'm one of those guys that changed out pickups on almost every guitar I've ever bought. Always looking for that improvement. 
A bit of a revelation came to me a couple of months after I put my kinmans in my 2004 American Tele. I was at a practice with a new band and the lead singer had an American tele sitting in the corner. From the 80s nothing special, just a completely stock American Standard. I asked if I could plug in to my Dr Z stangray. Well the sound that came out of that guitar completely knocked my socks off. It was amazing and sounded exactly like a tele should. It was the first time I actually played a stock tele through my Ray and it just made me love it even more. I guess that is what probably inspired me to buy the AV52RI recently. And I have to say that thing sounds amazing through my amp and will most definitely stay stock. I will probably keep the Kinmans in my other Tele as it does give me some versatility and noiseless.
Reflecting over the years at all the different replacement pups I've used, (mostly in teles some in strats) I remember always having a short honeymoon period followed by dissatisfaction then a different set of after market pups followed sometimes by reinstalling the stock pups. Usually I bought a guitar because not only did I like the feel but liked the sound as well. I don't ever recall trying out a guitar I bought and thinking "hey this feels good but sounds like crud". and then bought it.
I think I'm am forever off this crazy after market pup kick. Every guitar I buy will keep the stock unless I happen to get a great deal on a cheapie that would be better improved with better pups. Pretty much every guitar I've bought in the past has been a top quality expensive guitar


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Seymour Duncan, keystones, Bill Lawrence, Kinman, etc..
> 
> I'm one of those guys that changed out pickups on almost every guitar I've ever bought. Always looking for that improvement.
> A bit of a revelation came to me a couple of months after I put my kinmans in my 2004 American Tele. I was at a practice with a new band and the lead singer had an American tele sitting in the corner. From the 80s nothing special, just a completely stock American Standard. I asked if I could plug in to my Dr Z stangray. Well the sound that came out of that guitar completely knocked my socks off. It was amazing and sounded exactly like a tele should. It was the first time I actually played a stock tele through my Ray and it just made me love it even more. I guess that is what probably inspired me to buy the AV52RI recently. And I have to say that thing sounds amazing through my amp and will most definitely stay stock. I will probably keep the Kinmans in my other Tele as it does give me some versatility and noiseless.
> ...



I don't think it's hype at all, but I'm a member of the dark side. I use EMGs on most of my instruments and they have fundamental differences to all OEM pups.

I often buy guitars without even touching the first, or buy parts and build them up. It's not necesarrilt a matter of "better than", but it's definitely "different than".


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Well, for me it kinda depends on the guitar. One of my Teles has had replacement pickups twice but I keep going back to the stock ones. But, my Epiphone Dot will be getting replacements for sure and the stock ones sold or given a place of irreverence in a dusty drawer. The Godin LG, stock is great. The Strat, stock sucked, but basic no frills Stew-Macs are pretty good (plus the new wiring didn't hurt).

So for me it depends on the axe.

Don't overlook the rest of the electronic stuff like pots and caps. To be sure of a pickup I've sometimes bypassed the controls and sent the signal straight to the output to hear its true colours...a/b that with the full wiring can reveal what it all does to the tone. (I only use passive stuff.)

Peace, Mooh.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The "craze" started a loooooooong time ago. I bought myself a Di Marzio Super Distortion somewhere in the late 70's but they were established before then. When it started, it was primarily driven by the desire to have hotter output pickups that would overdrive amps more easily. Since guitar manufacturers were not overwinding their pickups, the aftermarket people started to. A second driver was people like me who were attempting to replace stock pickups on cheap guitars with "decent" pickups or install a pickup on homedrew axe.

It's really only been in the past 5 years or so that things started to get nuts, particularly as things like forums and on-line opinion-setters became more available. Having bought Vintage Guitar magazine regularly for nearly a decade now, I can safely say that the number of aftermarket suppliers has mushroomed. The greater the number of manufacturers, the greater the level of hype in the ad copy. We've seen this very phenomenon as the number of pedal-makers all making their version of a Tube Screamer has grown exponentially.

As the number of makers grows, too, so do the nitpicky differences in the commercial offerings. I don't doubt that there ARE audible differences, but unless one plays clean clean clean (and a dismally small percentage of players do these days), a lot of those audible differences tend to disappear.

At the same time, there is much that is NOT hype amidst the aftermarket crew. For example, dual rails pickups were never offered by any manufacturer and those have been a blessing for folks with guitars having nonstandard string spacing or pickup placement. The push for noiseless single-coil style was spurred almost entirely by the aftermarket folks. Some pickups that fell by the wayside as guitar-makers changed lines or collapsed were resurrected by the aftermarket folks (e.g., all those TV Jones pickups).

So, there is much to commend about the aftermarket market. At the same time, there is a certain crowding of the market that has started to resemble a lipstick display case in the make-up section at a department store, and has engendered a certain level of cynicism and skepticism, as evidenced by the start of this thread.. I mean, exactly how many spontaneously discernible shades of red or pink can there BE?

It is not unreasonable to expect there to be new worlds to conquer with respect to pickup design (hex pickups, Lace Alumitone, etc). At the same time, there are so many other elements in one's signal chain (pot value, cable, pickup height adjustment, pedals, amps, speakers, picks, etc.), it seems unreasonable to expect pickups to trump all those other things, and entirely reasonable for folks like yourself to be more than a little disappointed with aftermarket pickups' ability to sound distinctive in spite of all those things.


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## Hamm Guitars (Jan 12, 2007)

I find that setting up a pickup makes all the difference in the world. I highly recomend grabbing a screw driver and experimenting with your current pickups before you spend the money on something else.

Some pickups are definately better than others, but I would expect that most stock pickups in a guitar that is over $500.oo should be pretty decent.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

mhammer said:


> At the same time, there are so many other elements in one's signal chain (pot value, cable, pickup height adjustment, pedals, amps, speakers, picks, etc.), it seems unreasonable to expect pickups to trump all those other things, and entirely reasonable for folks like yourself to be more than a little disappointed with aftermarket pickups' ability to sound distinctive in spite of all those things.


You said it all right there. I think alot of us are expecting alot more from after market pups then it is possible for them to give.
I've come closer in reaching my tone in the last couple of years than in the previous 20 some odd years. It came with researching for and finding a good amp, and eliminating almost everything in between the guitar and the amp. I'm discovering that I probably never gave the stock pups a chance in the first place. My conclusion is that there was never really anything wrong with them. The after market pups that I do own solve one problem in being noiseless. I guess for the very rare times when that will make a difference.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Hamm Guitars said:


> I find that setting up a pickup makes all the difference in the world. I highly recomend grabbing a screw driver and experimenting with your current pickups before you spend the money on something else.
> 
> Some pickups are definately better than others, but I would expect that most stock pickups in a guitar that is over $500.oo should be pretty decent.


Yes very important. When I first installed the Kinmans I was not impressed with what I was getting. I found that they were very responsive to height adjustment.
I haven't yet fooled around with my new Tele but then it sounds so great right from the factory. I will end up playing with the height. But if I ever get the stupid idea to change the pups hopefully someone will shoot me.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Half agree, but here's a thing. My 1980 ES335 came stock with dirty fingers humbuckers. The only things I can imagine that would be more incongruous on that guitar would be either those DiMarzio super distortions (I had a set of those in a cheapie HondoII LP copy in the 70s!) or something like EMGs. So the SD Antiquities that have replaced them make sense to me.
A friend who was a pro musician for a while swore that changing the pu's on his 70s Ibanez V ruined it, even after the originals were put back in, he said it lost something (how he could tell through those three Marshall stacks I'll never know -- I played with him in a side project for a while and it was painful even with earplugs).
But yes, there is a lot of hype, as with everything...


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

+1000 on that. It's amazing what you can coax out with a screw driver.

Having said that, I really enjoy my Dimarzio Area 58/61's in my strat mostly because they are noiseless.



Hamm Guitars said:


> I find that setting up a pickup makes all the difference in the world. I highly recomend grabbing a screw driver and experimenting with your current pickups before you spend the money on something else.
> 
> Some pickups are definately better than others, but I would expect that most stock pickups in a guitar that is over $500.oo should be pretty decent.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

i think one reason puckup swapping is so popular is that its an easy to do, easily reversible modification- anybody can do it, yet it can make a big difference- so its the popular mod to make-
there is a huge amount of hype- just look at the product descriptions on the gfs page lol.
i am a pickup swapper from way back- i used to replace everything with dimarzio hs2 and hs3 to keep the hum down when playing at loud volume.
nowadays i only replace the ceramic ones- any half decent alnicos are good enough for me. the stock pups in the 2007 american strat are pretty nice, alnico 5, i got a set from someone who upgraded and they sound just fine to me.
i keep em all really low on my guitars, and like hamm i play around a lot setting them up, sometimes even tweaking the stagger.


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## Wheeman (Dec 4, 2007)

When you get something as cool as this:








(the middle pickup, the non-gold one)
how can you not resist slapping it into the guitar?

If you take a look closer you can see the rust and dirt on it.


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## SinCron (Mar 2, 2006)

I never played a guitar with anything other than stock pickups (except for the few with EMG's but I don't much care for them) and when I got my 7 string with a PAF 7 in the bridge, I noticed how awesome it was compared to my previous guitars. It was just so much BETTER! YUM!


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## Ripper (Jul 1, 2006)

I've had my amps long enough that I know them inside and out and for me the pickup swapping is the final tweak in the chain so to speak. And as was mentioned it's easy to do and it's fun to experiment.


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## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

Well some may be hype but there are defineatly pups out there that do make a difference. I would say that the wolftones,wcr and lollar pups do make a difference. A buddy just installed a set of lollar pups in his tele and there is a major difference, they have to be the nicest sounding tele pups I have heard to date. Wolfetone P90's are awesome and WCR pafs are mighty fine also.
I have also heard a couple sets of J Moores and they are pretty nice pickups. I have installed a wide variety of pickups in my own and others over the last couple years, some have been highend others were like GFS pups. In the high end ones I find some suttle sound differences but a lot of it lies in articulation. They define the notes better with out muddying things up. There build quality is usually better also. Not to say that some of the stock and low end pups don't sound good. For there price the Wilkinson HB's impress me.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

I have only ever had to replace one set of pu's. My main 66' Tele I can't change nothing for fear of hurting the $$$$ value. 

On my build I had a heck of a time wading my way through all the hype. Each forum seems to hype a type of Pu's too. 

I the end I bought Jon Moore's for all of three my guitars. He builds good stuff, is a Canadian AND a forum member. The best thing is that he is a pleasure to work with. 

So what's my point ?? I avoided the hype.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

I replaced my stock 1991 US Strat pickups with Lollar Blonds and there is a depth and image to the sound that wasn't there with the stock pickups. That said, the stock pickups sound a bit more raw and have more bite at higher volumes. More different than necessarily "better." 

Switching out the stock pickups on my Agile 335 clone for SD 59s, however, WAS simply better. But here we are talking about very cheap stock pus.

It's not all hype but "new" often sounds better until "new" is no longer "new." Then a new set goes that sound even better . . . Once you get into a certain league you are only talking differences not improvements.

TG


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

Some stock pickups suck. ALL stock pickups don't suck. 
I have quite a few stock pickups and quite a few aftermarket pickups. I change the stock ones if they suck or if I have too many of that particular type and want more variety.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Some guitarists I know changed pickups because it was easier to wire them to do coil splitting or phase switching options.

Normally aftermarket pickups come equipped to easily do those mods, whereas stock pickups may not be so easy to do that with them.

Me? I've only changed the pickups on one guitar--my Les Paul. It was originally made with humbuckers, but a previous owner jammed in some P-90 copies. They didn't give me the sound I wanted, so I put in humbuckers. (I already had one, as I was previously going to modify a different guitar, but decided not to.)

It also gave me the option to wire them for series/parallel--which I like better than coil splitting.

It's a personal preference I guess. Normally I don't see myself switching them.


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## LowWatt (Jun 27, 2007)

smorgdonkey said:


> Some stock pickups suck. ALL stock pickups don't suck.
> I have quite a few stock pickups and quite a few aftermarket pickups. I change the stock ones if they suck or if I have too many of that particular type and want more variety.


Yep. The pickups in my MIJ '83 Squier Tele were one obvious weak spot on an otherwise fine guitar. No amount of adjusting got them to sound balanced or like they were effectively showing the real tone of the guitar. Popped in a set of JS Moore pickups and I'm thrilled with the results. Now my AVRI Jazzmaster, I've never considered swapping the stock pickups. It sounds like a Jazzmaster should and the pickups do a great job electronically translating the natural tone of the guitar.


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## Ringwraith (Nov 17, 2007)

Ya I'd say there is a lot of hype in the after market PU world!! BUT changing PU's is such an easy mod that can take your guitar in a totally different direction. It really depends on the guitar & what you want out of that particular guitar. My 05 Les Paul Standard was too shrill to my ears with the stock Burstbucker Pros so I threw in a bunch of different PUs including the much talked about Wolftone Dr V's which just didn't work out for me. I ended up with Seth Lovers & I'm much happier. My 92 EDS 1275 has the stock PUs & I love them! Same with my early 90's Am Standard Tele & Strat. I wouldn't want to paint myself into a corner by saying I'll only play stock guitars for now on. ;-)

Sean


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

The pickups on the American Standard Teles are quite good, the neck is a touch dull and the bridge is a bit ice picky. YOu can fix it with the tone control, but I was always adjusting. I tried 3 sets in mine, some better some worse, and finally found a set that stayed in (amalfitano). The Amalfitanos also hum cancel in the middle which is a bonus.

The 52 AVRI pickups are a lot warmer sounding, and I really liked them, but the noise was a bit of an issue, I put in Kinmans. The Kinmans don't sound quite as good as the AVRI stock ones, but they sure are quiet.

I swapped out the 490R and 498T pickups in my Les Paul with a set of vintage PAF style pickups (by Jon Moore) and a set of 500K pots and decent caps and it did 3 things, brightened up the guitar a lot, improved the note defintion and improved the sweep of the tone and volume controls.


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## smorgdonkey (Jun 23, 2008)

zdogma said:


> I swapped out the 490R and 498T pickups in my Les Paul with a set of vintage PAF style pickups (by Jon Moore) and a set of 500K pots and decent caps and it did 3 things, brightened up the guitar a lot, improved the note defintion and improved the sweep of the tone and volume controls.


Have you ever switched out just the pots and caps to see if that was the biggest issue in getting the '3 things'?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Ringwraith said:


> My 05 Les Paul Standard was too shrill to my ears with the stock Burstbucker Pros so I threw in a bunch of different PUs including the much talked about Wolftone Dr V's which just didn't work out for me. I ended up with Seth Lovers & I'm much happier. My 92 EDS 1275 has the stock PUs & I love them! Same with my early 90's Am Standard Tele & Strat. I wouldn't want to paint myself into a corner by saying I'll only play stock guitars for now on. ;-)
> 
> Sean


This is what has me a little perplexed. If you thought the guitar was too shrill, what made you buy it? I can maybe understand owning a guitar for a while then wanting to do something different with different pups but why buy a guitar right of the rack that doesn't sound good? 
In the past year I've spent extensive time researching and buying an amp I didn't have to mod, pedals I didn't have to mod and a guitar I didn't have to mod. I think I'm happier with my rig then I have ever been.
There are some pups that I've never tried that still has my curiosity though. Lollars and Fralin to name a couple. But I can't see messing with my AVRI to try them. It will either be my other Tele or buy a new guitar to try them.


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

smorgdonkey said:


> Have you ever switched out just the pots and caps to see if that was the biggest issue in getting the '3 things'?


Yep, the pot switch was done after the pickups, I swapped out the 300K pots for 500k, then the caps.

Changing the pickups made the biggest difference. Brighter and better definition. And a usable clean tone.

Changing the pots made the guitar just a bit brighter again and improved the volume taper.

The cap switch (from the stock .022 ceramics to .010 neck and .022 bridge poly caps) made the tone control more usable, especially on the neck. With the original cap in the neck, it would go from clear to mud if you turned down the tone at all, now you can use about half the sweep and still have a usable neck tone. I didn't notice much change in the bridge. 

Its been about 2 years and I'm still really happy with how it sounds.


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## Ringwraith (Nov 17, 2007)

After trying about 10-12 new Les Pauls out, this one was the nicest. Had all the quality's I was looking for. After playing it live for a few months I thought it was a tad shrill in the bridge. Not an over the top, killing my ears shrillness but I felt it could be improved. At first I tried different adjustments at the PU, then I rewired it with an RS kit. I eventually went through a bunch of PU's & kept the Seths in. I see it more like customizing it to my taste rather than "fixing" it. I enjoy throwing in different sets out of my PU drawer every now & then for a different flavor. ;-)

Cheers
Sean


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There's something I like to affectionately call "the party tape effect". Back in the day, one might make a mix tape for a party with a well-chosen sequence of songs that would provide a nice backdrop, and not risk people scratching your records, either by how they put them on or by where they put them after taking them off. Of course, if you made your tape on anything other than a 10" open reel, running at 1-7/8ips, you were bound to run out of music before the end of the party.

The "party tape effect" revolves around the observation that, as long as the music keeps going and nobody thinks they have a choice, they're happy, dancing and chatting away. The moment the music ends and they believe they have a choice, nothing but NOTHING is fast enough, slow enough, funky enough, romantic enough, loud enough, quiet enough, or indeed enough of anything.

It's the sense that one now has a choice of absolutely ANYTHING that prompts this dissatisfaction.

I think the phenomenon we observe with pickups now stems from the same origins. Once upon a time, there was what came with the guitar, and that was that. If you didn't like them, you got another guitar. Once the Pandora's Box opened, and people could have some of *this* with some of *that* (insert Seinfeld hand motions to Elaine on the couch here), instantaneously, nothing was ever good enough ever again. "That's just the way it is" is no longer a satisfactory expectation about a guitar. 

Of course, it hasn't helped that, really and truly, posted soundclips of pickups are of absolutely no eartly use whatsoever, and you can't really know in advance, before installation and proper setup, what pickups will sound like. It also hasn't really helped that manufacturers have bought into the aftermarket craze and now make a point of deliberately offering aftermarket pickups on their products and identifying them as such. People think of Duncan's on their "name" guitars the way we think of Michelins or Pirellis as being a stock aspect of certain cars. That has only served to entrench the belief that there HAS to be something that sounds a little more this or that or simply "more" than what I currently have installed.

Me, I make my pickups. I treat each one like an experiment, and a bit like a child. I have no particular tonal goal in mind when I make them, am curious to see how they turn out, and try to provide a context that nurtures what is distinctive and charming about each one. I suppose I fall prey to the urge to mod (or BUM syndrome, as I have coined it: the Blind Urge to Mod) when it comes to pickups, and have often swapped existing ones out for different ones I made, but that was really more a case of not having another guitar to install the new ones on. Now that I'm a grownup with a tiny bit of disposable income (and being a grownup means having less of it), I've gotten into making the instruments too, so there is now a home for the pickup experiments.


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## LowWatt (Jun 27, 2007)

mhammer said:


> There's something I like to affectionately call "the party tape effect". Back in the day, one might make a mix tape for a party with a well-chosen sequence of songs that would provide a nice backdrop, and not risk people scratching your records, either by how they put them on or by where they put them after taking them off. Of course, if you made your tape on anything other than a 10" open reel, running at 1-7/8ips, you were bound to run out of music before the end of the party.
> 
> The "party tape effect" revolves around the observation that, as long as the music keeps going and nobody thinks they have a choice, they're happy, dancing and chatting away. The moment the music ends and they believe they have a choice, nothing but NOTHING is fast enough, slow enough, funky enough, romantic enough, loud enough, quiet enough, or indeed enough of anything.
> 
> It's the sense that one now has a choice of absolutely ANYTHING that prompts this dissatisfaction.


Great metaphor and applicable to much more of what we discuss here that just pickups.


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

+++1 on that. Look at the OD craze. I think I've spent more time searching for and trying out OD's than actually trying to learn to play something. 

Disposable income + too much choice = obsessive compulsive buying and selling

It's fun though.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

mhammer said:


> soundclips of pickups are of absolutely no eartly use whatsoever, and you can't really know in advance, before installation and proper setup, what pickups will sound like.


Good post Mark. I wanted to pick up on one of the points you raised above. I was recently looking for pickups for a Strat I was putting together. I spent some time trying to decipher differences between various pickups on this page:

http://www.acmeguitarworks.com/Strat_Pickup_Sound_Clips_W1.cfm

After a while, I just gave up - they all sound pretty much the same. And especially considering that I'll be plugging them into my guitar, playing through my amp, going through my effects pedals and playing with my technique. Thats a lot of variables. I think in the end its a crapshoot - replacement pickups might sound better than the ones you already have, or they might not.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I think those areas are major sources of frustration for players. The nature of both reviews and ad copy simply doesn't help either. I remember well a review of what I seem to recall was a Fralin pickup in Guitar Player about probably 5 years back. The reviewer described it as having "nuts, ring, shimmer...the whole deal". Great....just, um.....super. The reviewer liked it, clearly, but I have absolutely no idea what he was hearing or referring to.

So between the articulately uninformative reviews, the overzealous ad copy, and the unrepresentativeness of soundfiles, that doesn't really leave us in a strong position to make informed judgments without the instrument in hand. That, in itself, would pose absolutely NO problem....*IF* it were the case that we lived in an era where one always purchased products from nearby retail outlets and could try before we buy. You could walk into a store, try a bunch of things out and say "I *like* that, but I'm not so crazy about this". The problem arises because we have all these manufacturers dangling all these....things.....in front of us, that are available via a website and paypal, and they seem to sometimes be either the same thing for divergent enough prices that we feel compelled to want to know more about the cheaper one, or so near in price that we are lost at the choicepoint. And the information we have available to us isn't helping matters. The cloud is not lifted, it is now THICKER.

That, for me, is the crux of this thread. Aftermarket pickups add value to the guitar game, but what we see and wrestle with most in that area IS the hype, simply because there isn't enough clear information from other sources. You will note that the players you see quoted in magazines who often speak the highest of the aftermarket peope are those who work with that manufacturer to either select or produce something for them. Those sorts of relationships tend to be the most productive and satisfying for the player, I suspect, because they provide more information to the player. You never see guys quoted who say "I was surfing around online and I saw/heard these pickups by XX that I found suited my needs for a decent price, so I bought them".

I've said this a few times before, whether here or elsewhere. I have a friend who is a wine-writer down Oakville way, and he gave me a copy of his lexicon of wine-tasting terminology. It's really well-written, and even for someone like myself who doesn't touch alchohol of any kind (not out of principle, I just don't like the taste), you can develop a clear sense of what to expect as a "mouth experience" by reading through his lexicon of wine-tasting terms. We need something like that for pickups, speakers, and probably some other aspects of guitar technology. Maybe then I'll know what nuts, ring, and shimmer mean.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I look back at all the times I ever change out a pickup and can't help but think that probably in all cases I did not take in to account the other equipment I was using. 
I think if you carefully research your amp purchase and your guitar purchase then learn how to get everything you can from them in most cases you should never have to change your pickups. Some one in this thread mentioned that they thought their stock pup was too shrill so they changed their pup. I don't mean to state the obvious when I say that maybe shaving a bit of treble off may have been a cheaper solution.
Sure its fun to swap out different pups but I'm just beginning to think its a waste of time. No offence to those who love doing it. 
Myself I've spent alot of time researching just the right NOS tubes for my amp and a vast amount of time with different after market pups. All in the name of improving my sound. 
I think all of us guitar players get caught up at one time or another in finding that perfect tone. But as I hear so many say that most of the tone comes from the fingers maybe we need to spend more time with our fingers on the fretboard. It will go farther in improving our tone/sound and save a lot of money.
If someone were to analyze each component in the sound chain I wonder how much percentage would relate to the pickup
For Example I might extrapolate the following:

Amp: 60%, Guitar-including all elements type of wood, strings etc excluding the pups. 20%, Guitar players technique 15%
There are probably some others you can add but those are the main ones. I can't see a whole lot left that would make pickups a significant difference.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

mhammer said:


> I remember well a review of what I seem to recall was a Fralin pickup in Guitar Player about probably 5 years back. The reviewer described it as having "nuts, ring, shimmer...the whole deal". Great....just, um.....super. The reviewer liked it, clearly, but I have absolutely no idea what he was hearing or referring to.


Translation :
Nut's........ the things that hold it on to the guitar

Ring........... the sound when you tap a it on a beer bottle

Shimmer.......... the chrome is still shiney and the relic guys passed it over

The whole deal...... it actually came in a box with unused instructions

Hope this helps.....

Ok ... now Fralin' isn't that a banjo term and can how do you do that on a six string electric ?


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> they thought their stock pup was too shrill so they changed their pup. I don't mean to state the obvious when I say that maybe shaving a bit of treble off may have been a cheaper solution.


Yeah, I'm pretty familiar with the tone control. That didn't quite get it there, and when you got the bridge mellowed off the neck was mud. Even with the tone control up the neck pups on the American standards are a bit dark and bland. 

I've had pretty good success overall with aftermarket pickups.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

zdogma said:


> Yeah, I'm pretty familiar with the tone control. That didn't quite get it there, and when you got the bridge mellowed off the neck was mud. Even with the tone control up the neck pups on the American standards are a bit dark and bland.
> 
> I've had pretty good success overall with aftermarket pickups.


I can understand that the tone controls may have not done it for you. I've played many amps where the tone controls seem to make very little positive difference. Thats why I spent so much time researching the amps I've owned lately. I can't believe how much even a tiny adjustment, on the tone controls of my present amp, make. Maybe thats why I no longer have the need for after market pups.


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> I can understand that the tone controls may have not done it for you. I've played many amps where the tone controls seem to make very little positive difference. Thats why I spent so much time researching the amps I've owned lately. I can't believe how much even a tiny adjustment, on the tone controls of my present amp, make. Maybe thats why I no longer have the need for after market pups.


Maybe so. What amp are you using? For the tele I have a Dr. Z Maz 18 NR, my "Les Paul" amp is a Route 66 with a Celestion Gold cab. The tone adjustment on the Maz is pretty broad, still couldn't quite get it in the pocket.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

zdogma said:


> Maybe so. What amp are you using? For the tele I have a Dr. Z Maz 18 NR, my "Les Paul" amp is a Route 66 with a Celestion Gold cab. The tone adjustment on the Maz is pretty broad, still couldn't quite get it in the pocket.


I'm using the Stangray head with 2X12 open back/Celestion Blues and will be ordering the Carmen Ghia.
I think there is a place for aftermarket pups obviously because I've got the Kinman broadcasters with no plans to take them out. But with my new Tele I can't beleive how sweet it sounds stock.
I had the Maz 38 head with the closed back 2X12. That cabinet was way too loud. I could never get that rig low enough for the places I play. I did a couple of recordings with though that I thought turned out well.


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## zdogma (Mar 21, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> I'm using the Stangray head with 2X12 open back/Celestion Blues and will be ordering the Carmen Ghia.
> I think there is a place for aftermarket pups obviously because I've got the Kinman broadcasters with no plans to take them out. But with my new Tele I can't beleive how sweet it sounds stock.
> I had the Maz 38 head with the closed back 2X12. That cabinet was way too loud. I could never get that rig low enough for the places I play. I did a couple of recordings with though that I thought turned out well.


I know what you mean about the Maz 38, nice amp for outdoors or auditoriums, but as soon as its "on" its too loud for club shows. The route 66 is a bit more manageable, the volume pot taper is a lot less abrupt. 

I've played thru the Stangray/2 blues many times (mostly the 212 combo), just about the best sounding tele rig I have tried. 

The Ghia is a great amp as well, I've had 2 over the years. It'll be nice thru the openback cab.


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2008)

Choices, choices...arrrrrrrrgh!
I'd like to upgrade my Joe Pass epi because
of the annoying feedback (unlike the controlled
howl that sweaty Teddy gets). That's why I
like forums like this. I try to learn from the 
wisdom of others. So far the choice for me seems
to be GFS. Anyone have any alternatives to choose
from (for hollow-body, 3" thick)?


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## Ringwraith (Nov 17, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> Some one in this thread mentioned that they thought their stock pup was too shrill so they changed their pup. I don't mean to state the obvious when I say that maybe shaving a bit of treble off may have been a cheaper solution.difference.


You're assuming that road wasn't taken. ;-)

It's a pretty shared opinion that the Burstbucker Pro's have a harshness/brittleness to them. I don't know too many Les Paul owners that haven't taken them out. To me when I said shrill, I didn't mean something that can be "tuned" out with the tone knob. It's a harshness that's there regardless of what tone settings you go with. The Duncans I tried in my Lester including, Jazz in the neck with JB, Custom, Pearly Gates, Custom V in the bridge & a set of Seth Lovers, most sounded great, different flavors but still great. I think Gibson dropped the ball with the latest Burstbuckers. The 1 & 2 seem to be good but the Pro's are not so popular. Unfortunately they put them in pretty much every Les Paul from Standards up. I think PU's have a huge part in the overall sound equation! There's obviously all the other factors but it's a big part.

cheers
Sean


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2008)

Tnx *Paul*. Good points. 
Been considering a sound post (studied
my '66 harmony rocket and other sites).
I may borrow from Doug's idea and see 
how that goes too.


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

I agree, there's a lot of hype about the 'best' pickups.

I see guys deciding which pickups they want before they've even tried the guitar.

As Hamm mentioned above, sometimes that tone you are chasing is just a screwdriver turn away.

I always try other mods first, pots, caps, 50s wiring (on a LP setup), amp settings, pickup adjustments, treble bleed circuits, etc.

But, if after all of that, you aren't getting the tone you really want, then it's time to turn to the winders. Do your research first, don't buy a set of pups because some guy said on a forum they are the best he's ever tried. They might be the only ones he's ever tried.

If you don't know, really know, the tone you are chasing (and why), you might just be wasting your money.

Everything matters in the tone chain, pickups aren't going to magically make you sound like (fill in your favorite rock star).


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

dwagar said:


> I agree, there's a lot of hype about the 'best' pickups.
> 
> I see guys deciding which pickups they want before they've even tried the guitar.
> 
> ...



Well stated. I agree. Its not that afermarket pups are always bad its the hype that can lead people in to believing they are the magic cure for everything. 
I think in most cases if you've thought out what you're after and well researched a good amp and guitar there shouldn't be need to change anything.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Well stated. I agree. Its not that afermarket pups are always bad its the hype that can lead people in to believing they are the magic cure for everything.
> I think in most cases if you've thought out what you're after and well researched a good amp and guitar there shouldn't be need to change anything.


In my case that's simply not true.

I have specific tastes and have yet to find a stock guitar with ALL of the characteristics I want. Short of having guitars custom built FOR me, I have to soup up the ones that come closest.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> In my case that's simply not true.
> 
> I have specific tastes and have yet to find a stock guitar with ALL of the characteristics I want. Short of having guitars custom built FOR me, I have to soup up the ones that come closest.



I hear you. I have an AS Tele that when I'm done with it I may as well had it custom built. If I had it to do over again thats what I would have done. Right now all the electronics are completely out of it, replaced by Kinmans no solder harness and the broadcaster pups and a strat pup. The saddles have been replaced with graphite bridge saddles.
My next mod is to find an ash body. all that will be left of it when I'm done is the neck, which I'm quite happy with.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Ringwraith said:


> You're assuming that road wasn't taken. ;-)
> 
> It's a pretty shared opinion that the Burstbucker Pro's have a harshness/brittleness to them. I don't know too many Les Paul owners that haven't taken them out. To me when I said shrill, I didn't mean something that can be "tuned" out with the tone knob. It's a harshness that's there regardless of what tone settings you go with. The Duncans I tried in my Lester including, Jazz in the neck with JB, Custom, Pearly Gates, Custom V in the bridge & a set of Seth Lovers, most sounded great, different flavors but still great. I think Gibson dropped the ball with the latest Burstbuckers. The 1 & 2 seem to be good but the Pro's are not so popular. Unfortunately they put them in pretty much every Les Paul from Standards up. I think PU's have a huge part in the overall sound equation! There's obviously all the other factors but it's a big part.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure which Burstbuckers are in my 02' LP Std but I really like them - perhaps they're the older ones?

On topic, after years of making changes and upgrades to my pickups I'm pretty much back at square one. I also no longer tweak pedals either.

But I can't leave an amp alone :smile:


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## guitarman_59 (Sep 27, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> You said it all right there. I think alot of us are expecting alot more from after market pups then it is possible for them to give.
> I've come closer in reaching my tone in the last couple of years than in the previous 20 some odd years. It came with researching for and finding a good amp, and eliminating almost everything in between the guitar and the amp. I'm discovering that I probably never gave the stock pups a chance in the first place. My conclusion is that there was never really anything wrong with them. The after market pups that I do own solve one problem in being noiseless. I guess for the very rare times when that will make a difference.


I put some Rockfield Zebras in my 76 Les Paul to replace a DiMarrzio SuperD and a Mighty Mite neck. The Zebras are a PAF on Steriods and they sound fantastic. They gave the guitar the sound I wanted all along and they are pretty close to PAF specs. Sometimes we are closer than we know even before we start :rockon2:


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