# Strat - MIM and upgrade or MIA



## happydude (Oct 15, 2007)

I know the MIM and MIA Strat debate is always going to rage, but I'm wondering what the difference in wood and basic construction is.

I'm a bit of a tinkerer and the prospect of buying a guitar only to tear out its internals is appealing. I hear that the main difference between the MIM and MIA are with pickups, bridge, and tuners and that can be changed. I'm not opposed to playing around with electronics or any of the other gear on a guitar.

I'm a little concerned because I'm still new and I hear that keeping all strings off a guitar is bad and I would have to do some neck truss rod adjustment and I'm not familiar with this. I'm seriously thinking of picking up a used Squier strat to use a test run so that I can learn on something that won't hit the pocket book too hard if I fubar the whole thing.

Thoughts?


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## Tarl (Feb 4, 2006)

Check out the Made in USA Highwat 1 Strat....got mine for $749 and love it. If you like to tinker it's not alot more than a MIM. I think you are right about the differences between the MIA and MIMs. Trying out some MIMs I noticed that the fret work is not as good either, very close to the MIAs otherwise.


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## Gene Machine (Sep 22, 2007)

*done it...*

i've done it with a MIM tele. 

so, as far as hardware goes, be really careful to check screw and string spacing, because there are two standards used on strats. they are not compatable. i don't know if this applies to the difference between MIM andMIA, but certainly the older vintage guitars have a wider spacing, and newer MIM bridges won't fit. double check first.


however, i never had an issue with the MIM bridges anyway, they seemed reasonable. if you had to change it, you could just buy replacement saddles.

stock MIA pickups are decent, if your ok with single coil. if you want noiseless, HB or otherwise, your buying pickups either way.

after upgrading my MIM tele with noiseless fender pups, im very happy and don't GAS over an american one. in fact, i had a 52 RI which i traded for something else. (it was a FAB guitar, but honestly i can do the tele thing fine with the MIM)


so good luck.try some out. you may be able to find a used MIM and really turn it around. or you may find a nice american one that is really great.

cheers.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

if you can afford it, i'd buy the MIA. all i can say is: how many heavily upgraded usa strats do you see for sale? not many, because those are the ones people keep. the MIM stuff is very very good these days, there's no question... but if you're a serious player, you're better off with the MIA, especially considering the relatively small price difference (as compared to say, gibson). i've owned a lot of guitars in the last decade, and i'm always buying and selling the MIM or K guitars, but the US ones stay put. 

that's my 2 cents worth, for what it's worth... i know people will disagree...


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

suttree said:


> if you can afford it, i'd buy the MIA. all i can say is: how many heavily upgraded usa strats do you see for sale? not many, because those are the ones people keep. the MIM stuff is very very good these days, there's no question... but if you're a serious player, you're better off with the MIA, especially considering the relatively small price difference (as compared to say, gibson). i've owned a lot of guitars in the last decade, and i'm always buying and selling the MIM or K guitars, but the US ones stay put.
> 
> that's my 2 cents worth, for what it's worth... i know people will disagree...


+1 on that brotha.. a MIM upgraded will most likely be as expensive as a MIA anyway.


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## Steve_F (Feb 15, 2008)

well, one of the biggest differences in the two is the body. The MIA stuff is usually a nice 1 or 2 piece body, the MIM stuff can be 5 pieces laminated together sometimes, so unless those are 5 good pieces, the MIA guitar is usually going to resonate alot better, something the MIM guitar will have alot of trouble matching. Most of the USA Fenders have a nitro finish and the MIM's have a Poly finish as well.

You can absolutely find excellent MIM Fenders, and it's all about what satisfies you, but if this is a guitar you plan on keeping for years and years, treat yourself and go MIA.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

As I almost always replace pickups on the guitars I buy, I would go with the MIM.

I've had a couple and really found very little difference between the MIA and MIM instruments other than price.


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## Mogwaii (Feb 16, 2007)

I'd say buy 2 Squier Deluxe Strats and upgrade them both!


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

It's already been mentioned, but a MIM upgraded will cost you as much as a stock MIA. I have an Epi SG that's been totally upgraded. The only stock parts are the wood and I think the tailpiece. I've spent more on this guitar than I would have on a used SG standard. And since Fender prices are closer to one another between MIM and MIA standards, a set of fresh pickups for a MIM will put you darned close to the sticker price of a MIA on its own.

Also, how much can you upgrade a MIA? I have a American Standard Deluxe that I'm totally happy with and there's not much I can think of to tinker with. Neck is perfect, hardware is good, electronics do what they need to do very well, fret are perfectly level (from the factory! try finding that on a MIM).

With a MIM, you'll always be looking for the next upgrade to get you into MIA territory, which is going to hurt your pocketbook in the end. Save yourself some dough and go MIA. :rockon:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Are the prices for a MIM Strat and a MIA Strat really that close?

Perhaps it's the used prices that have the big gap, but I've bought used MIMs for $200.

A set of pickups (used) can be had for $100 ~$150 no problem. That puts the price for an upgraded used MIM Strat at $350.


I don't recall seeing used MIAs for anywhere near that cheap.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Two bills? In the GTA, at least going by prices on CL, people are asking $300-$375$ for used MIMs in good condition, and you can shave off $100-250 if it's a Squire. You'd be hard-pressed to get a decent used Fender guitar for two bills unless you're very patient or have excellent haggling skills. Not saying that such deals aren't out there, but I'd expect they are relatively rare. There's a ton of great used $200 guitar deals out there but so far, in my own dealings anyway, they rarely involve the Fender logo on the headstock.

But I agree with you that, pickups aside, there's probably little difference between MIMs and USAs... although in my experience people who have USAs will argue differently and head off into mystical territory, claiming it's about "tone" or "it just feels different." Which is all very good, but it's the sort of thing that makes it hard to quantify, research or prove.

There are excellent arguments in this thread. Seems I should revise my thinking; I could upgrade my '93 MIM Tele with nicer pickups, or I could simply sell it and go for a used USA Tele. The cash outlay is pretty much the same, unless you can score good used pickups and are ready to take the time and trouble to go DIY (not all of us are that mechanically inclined).

Still, the charm about upgrading a MIM guitar is that your options are pretty open as to what pickups you are going to replace the standard ones with. Whereas taking the USA option, you have to deal with the pickups it came with, whether you like them or not... or you can always spend yet more cash, of course.

Choices, choices.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

a vintage tele bridge is a direct bolt on to a mim - i think its the same for strats. a vintage bridge wont fit a current american standard. the mim bodies are made to vintage spec, while the american are to modern spec.



> Most of the USA Fenders have a nitro finish and the MIM's have a Poly finish as well.


the only fenders that dont have some poly coating are custom shop models-
all fenders, including the thin skin ones, have a poly undercoat. the american vintage, the thin skin, and the highway one have a coat of nitro on top of the poly. all the other mia fenders have the same poly finish as the mims.

heres what i did with my tele-
mim sunburst standard tele, straight out of the box, in a store = $400
52 reissue bridge and pickup, purchased here on the forum from steviemac = $100
set of gotoh kluson type tuners, brand new in guitar store = $50
round string tree = $5
orange drop cap = $1

so $556. aside from the 9.5 inch fretboard radius and the sticker on the headstock ive got a sweet playing vintage style tele. an american reissue would be something like $1300- and itd be the same guitar, but with a 7.25 radius and a vintage sticker.

as far as wood quality, etc- the american and mexican plants are 100 kms apart. my guess is the wood comes from the same source, and doubt anybody picks and chooses which wood goes where.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Maxer said:


> Two bills? In the GTA, at least going by prices on CL, people are asking $300-$375$ for used MIMs in good condition, and you can shave off $100-250 if it's a Squire. You'd be hard-pressed to get a decent used Fender guitar for two bills unless you're very patient or have excellent haggling skills. Not saying that such deals aren't out there, but I'd expect they are relatively rare. There's a ton of great used $200 guitar deals out there but so far, in my own dealings anyway, they rarely involve the Fender logo on the headstock.
> 
> But I agree with you that, pickups aside, there's probably little difference between MIMs and USAs... although in my experience people who have USAs will argue differently and head off into mystical territory, claiming it's about "tone" or "it just feels different." Which is all very good, but it's the sort of thing that makes it hard to quantify, research or prove.
> 
> ...


I bought a MIM Strat, already upgraded with a Carvin pickguard assy and including a hardshell case for $225.

I bought a MIM Tele with an extra neck, Schaller tuners and bridge and a hardshell case for less than $200.

I didn't have to look hard to find these deals.

I can only relate my experiences. I suppose people pay more sometimes.

I assume pretty much anyone can install pickups (or get their parents to do so).


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## happydude (Oct 15, 2007)

Lots of good advice here. I think I'll opt for a MIA strat of some variety, but I'll probably pick up a cheapo used Squier to toy with just for fun. I've seen lots of MIM strat pickups for cheap after guys have modded theirs with different pickups so tracking those down to throw in a Squier wouldn't be hard.


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

*Why buy a Squier Strat? Because it is fun!!*

I bought the Squier Affinity Fat Strat for only $159.99, GST included.

At that price I could afford to totally trash the guitar, but I hoped to learn a lot about Strats by disassembling the guitar. In fact, taking this guitar apart was a great learning experience...and fun to boot!

I am in the process of sanding down to bare wood, which is nice alder by the way. Then I am going to have the fun of staining the wood, and finishing with Minwax Polywipe, or TruOil...the no gloss, instant antique look. I have already put a really nice vintage looking tint to the neck using Feibing's leather dye. This will get the same type of finish as the body.

Then I am going to install better hardware, electronics, and pickups...right now my budget seems to dictate GFS...we'll see. 

For the price of a MIM Strat, I will have a unique guitar, made to my exact tastes. And I would value my learning experience and fun at more than the price of a MIA!


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I assume pretty much anyone can install pickups (or get their parents to do so).


LOL! Caught the dig and noted it, thanks very much. OK, so I'm not very mechanically inclined - I'll own up to it. Never tried to install pickups. I'm good with a paintbrush but not with the hammer, good with software, not with hardware... great at 2D, rather more challenged at 2D - that sort of thing. Best I've been able to manage so far with guitars is basic maintenance and adjusting pickup heights... no soldering here. High time I should learn. I have been getting more into working with my FR-equipped guitar, figuring out what makes it tick and how to adjust it. But I'm sloooow with that stuff.

Anyway, good on you for scoring those $200 deals. In reconsidering it, the CL prices _asked_ for Tele and Strat guitars don't necessarily translate to the prices _received,_ do they.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

the mexi standard streets at about $450 new at this point. the re-issue models quickly get into the $8-900 territory. at which point, buy an MIA for pete's sakes... an american standard is $1000, and a highway one is under $800 (yes indeed, less than the mexi deluxe models)... that being said, if you haven't played the most recent mexi stuff, they're really getting good.


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## biggreen (Mar 23, 2008)

suttree said:


> the mexi standard streets at about $450 new at this point. the re-issue models quickly get into the $8-900 territory. at which point, buy an MIA for pete's sakes... an american standard is $1000, and a highway one is under $800 (yes indeed, less than the mexi deluxe models)... that being said, if you haven't played the most recent mexi stuff, they're really getting good.


Yep. $800 MIM deluxe strat comes with a lousy gig bag, The $1000 new american standards come with awesome SKB hardshells that are worth... $200+ . It is pretty easy math. 
Not to mention the MIM strat will fetch a max of $450 resale value and the MIA strat will get around $650-$700. Plus, the AS strat is actually better. 

I just went threw this whole situation over the last month. I have my main player which is an SG but was feeling like I needed a cheap strat to mess with. Started trying out squires, then the MIM, then upgraded and decided the $800 Classic players strat was a great guitar,(and hey, I was saving $200.). However by the time I wanted to upgrade to a decent case and replace the crappy 1 ply pickguard that was lifting off of the body it would have cost me more than the American standard and resale on them was not good. 

I thought I wanted a vintage style strat,and I did like the v neck quite a bit, but the American Standard is just better, with several nice modern features: It has a micro adjusting tilt neck, and exposed truss rod, fatter nicer frets, a 3 ply pickguard that is a nice cream color, better finish, way better tuners that are staggered plus 22 frets. Ya, I know playability and sound are only opinions and everyones will vary on that so I won't even bother, but quality is quality.

Buying guitars and sinking money into upgrades only works out if you keep the guitar forever, however upgrades don't increase the value of a guitar at all. A $700 MIM strat with $300 pickups and an added hardshell case will still sell for $500 from everything I have seen.

If you are going to go cheap, go cheap and get one of the indonesian strats for $250, for what you get it is a great guitar, if you decide you need something better down the road you can trade it in on something better and not lose tons of cash, or if you can swing it, get the best guitar you can out of the gate and leave expensive upgrades to the guys with budget guitars.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

oh and mike/milkman if you're easily buying mexi standards for less than $200, that's what i'd call a great deal. you should be buying them at that price to resell for a good profit, really... i can always flog a guitar or 5, if you're interested let me know.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Maxer said:


> LOL! Caught the dig and noted it, thanks very much. OK, so I'm not very mechanically inclined - I'll own up to it. Never tried to install pickups. I'm good with a paintbrush but not with the hammer, good with software, not with hardware... great at 2D, rather more challenged at 2D - that sort of thing. Best I've been able to manage so far with guitars is basic maintenance and adjusting pickup heights... no soldering here. High time I should learn. I have been getting more into working with my FR-equipped guitar, figuring out what makes it tick and how to adjust it. But I'm sloooow with that stuff.
> 
> Anyway, good on you for scoring those $200 deals. In reconsidering it, the CL prices _asked_ for Tele and Strat guitars don't necessarily translate to the prices _received,_ do they.


Honestly that was not a dig. It was more my opinion that most people who may THINK they can't swap pickups out probably could.

Of course there's nothing saying you have to LIKE doing it. Personally although I can figure out how to do most things on a car, I have no interest whatsoever in doing so.

As for the parents thing, I guess I just meant that someone who is say thirteen or fourteen may have no access to or experience with a soldering gun,


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

suttree said:


> oh and mike/milkman if you're easily buying mexi standards for less than $200, that's what i'd call a great deal. you should be buying them at that price to resell for a good profit, really... i can always flog a guitar or 5, if you're interested let me know.


I don't flip guitars. I buy what I need and use them. That sort of frees me from the bitter realities of resale values when picking instruments.


That's one reason I find MSRPs on some brands to be unreasonable. As I don't concern myself with getting money back out of them I see no reason to pay a premium for that element.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Understood, Milkman. Thanks for the clarification.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

Milkman said:


> I assume pretty much anyone can install pickups (or get their parents to do so).


I'm a klutz. I've had problems changing tubes (bent the prongs). When I tried to change a speaker, I stripped one of the screw thingys that hold the speaker in place - I gave up. I will NOT solder - I've worked to long to build up those finger tip calluses up to just burn them off. However, I no longer draw blood when I change strings on my guitars.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

resale value is a non- issue for me too. i dont buy guitars i dont like, and its rare that i sell one- i give away worthless ones. thats why i prefer to spend less for a chunk of alder and maple and alter it to my needs.
guitars lose value if im using them for any length. if i buy or assemble a guitar, then its for me to own and use. not to sell. why bother buying one if your just gonna sell it.


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## biggreen (Mar 23, 2008)

fraser said:


> resale value is a non- issue for me too. i dont buy guitars i dont like, and its rare that i sell one- i give away worthless ones. thats why i prefer to spend less for a chunk of alder and maple and alter it to my needs.
> guitars lose value if im using them for any length. if i buy or assemble a guitar, then its for me to own and use. not to sell. why bother buying one if your just gonna sell it.


Sure, but on the flip side, why buy a cheap guitar that doesn't fit your needs only to have to spend money on it to meet those needs, when you could have taken all of that money and bought a guitar that fit your needs out of the gate.

For me buying a guitar and keeping it's resale value in mind is key. There are way to many nice guitars and too little money to keep everyone I want to own/try/test drive. I think guitars are a bit like woman, you have to live with them for awhile before you decide if you are going to want to make things permanent.


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

*New Pickguard and pickups for my cheap Strat*










Tortoise shell pickguard
Cream coloured knobs and switch
Nickle PAF's
8.8 ohms Neck
9.0 ohms Bridge

This should be exactly what I like for looks, and for tone!


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

biggreen said:


> Sure, but on the flip side, why buy a cheap guitar that doesn't fit your needs only to have to spend money on it to meet those needs, when you could have taken all of that money and bought a guitar that fit your needs out of the gate.
> 
> For me buying a guitar and keeping it's resale value in mind is key. There are way to many nice guitars and too little money to keep everyone I want to own/try/test drive. I think guitars are a bit like woman, you have to live with them for awhile before you decide if you are going to want to make things permanent.


well read my post earlier- i got exactly what i wanted. and i do every time. every ****ing time:smile:
i quote myself.



> a vintage tele bridge is a direct bolt on to a mim - i think its the same for strats. a vintage bridge wont fit a current american standard. the mim bodies are made to vintage spec, while the american are to modern spec.
> 
> 
> Quote:
> ...


im different than you in that i see a guitar as a guitar- not as leverage or value- your way is cool too- but i cant live that way. and had my first wife been willing, i woulda spent my life with her. same with the second one. ill keep this tele till i die. and its cheap. and exactly what i want.and it cost $556.
i likely could not walk into a guitar store and buy a guitar for $556 and have it be everything i want in a guitar, could i?


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

meh. i have my guitars, and they're not for sale, at any price. but then i have my "farting around" guitars, and they're always for sale. i don't look to triple my money on a guitar, but i think it's pretty reasonable to make $50 or a $100 on a deal, seeing as i usually tweak the setup, change the strings, and i know the good ones from the bad... and i've been around plenty of guitars, and i consider myself pretty aware of what most of them are generally worth, although i'm not specialist in vintage gear.. $200 for a mexi strat, i'll buy that whether i like the guitar or not (as long as it's a quality instrument in good repair), and the next time someone asks me "where do i go to get a good guitar for my kid/boyfriend/dad/whatever?" i get to say, "hey i've got a decent guitar right here"... i know they're getting a solid guitar for a very good deal, and i make a few bucks for my assistance. what's wrong with that?


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

suttree said:


> meh. i have my guitars, and they're not for sale, at any price. but then i have my "farting around" guitars, and they're always for sale. i don't look to triple my money on a guitar, but i think it's pretty reasonable to make $50 or a $100 on a deal, seeing as i usually tweak the setup, change the strings, and i know the good ones from the bad... and i've been around plenty of guitars, and i consider myself pretty aware of what most of them are generally worth, although i'm not specialist in vintage gear.. $200 for a mexi strat, i'll buy that whether i like the guitar or not (as long as it's a quality instrument in good repair), and the next time someone asks me "where do i go to get a good guitar for my kid/boyfriend/dad/whatever?" i get to say, "hey i've got a decent guitar right here"... i know they're getting a solid guitar for a very good deal, and i make a few bucks for my assistance. what's wrong with that?


nothing is wrong with that, providing you didnt just spend 10 hours working and dont have the time or energy to buy/sell, when you want to be playing


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

biggreen said:


> Sure, but on the flip side, why buy a cheap guitar that doesn't fit your needs only to have to spend money on it to meet those needs, when you could have taken all of that money and bought a guitar that fit your needs out of the gate.
> 
> For me buying a guitar and keeping it's resale value in mind is key. There are way to many nice guitars and too little money to keep everyone I want to own/try/test drive. I think guitars are a bit like woman, you have to live with them for awhile before you decide if you are going to want to make things permanent.


For me the answer to your first question is simple. I can easily assemble a guitar to meet my exact likes for a fraction of the cost of ANY high end stock guitar and frankly I don't recall seeing ANY stock guitar that has exactly what I want anyway.

If buying and selling guitars is a hobby that's fine. Some of us really see guitars as tools, valued and cherished tools, but tools nevertheless. 

As for comparing guitars to women, I think some folks try to make marriages work and some get seperated when the honeymoon is over.

The missus and I are somewhere around 19 years and counting. I don't know what her resale value is.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

suttree said:


> meh. i have my guitars, and they're not for sale, at any price. but then i have my "farting around" guitars, and they're always for sale. i don't look to triple my money on a guitar, but i think it's pretty reasonable to make $50 or a $100 on a deal, seeing as i usually tweak the setup, change the strings, and i know the good ones from the bad... and i've been around plenty of guitars, and i consider myself pretty aware of what most of them are generally worth, although i'm not specialist in vintage gear.. $200 for a mexi strat, i'll buy that whether i like the guitar or not (as long as it's a quality instrument in good repair), and the next time someone asks me "where do i go to get a good guitar for my kid/boyfriend/dad/whatever?" i get to say, "hey i've got a decent guitar right here"... i know they're getting a solid guitar for a very good deal, and i make a few bucks for my assistance. what's wrong with that?


Nothing wrong with it at all. I guess I just don't have the time or inclination to work on a guitar (it does take time and effort) just to turn around and sell it to make a few bucks. I buy stuff to use it. If the time comes when I want to sell it I sell it cheap to move it fast and buy something I WILL use. You were the benefiiary of this policy on Sunday as I recall.

Different strokes.


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## biggreen (Mar 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> For me the answer to your first question is simple. I can easily assemble a guitar to meet my exact likes for a fraction of the cost of ANY high end stock guitar and frankly I don't recall seeing ANY stock guitar that has exactly what I want anyway.
> 
> If buying and selling guitars is a hobby that's fine. Some of us really see guitars as tools, valued and cherished tools, but tools nevertheless.
> 
> ...



Well, if your not to fussy then that is a great way to go. A $400 MIM standard and an American standard have a pretty big gap between them in quality/playabilty, a gap that can't really be bridged with $150 in upgrades IMO. I am not saying the MIM standards aren't good for what you pay for them, they are decent enough guitars, though I think the Squires are really just as good for even less money, making them a better value. Which upgrades would you do anyway?

My comments aren't really meant to convert anyone from what works for them, but simply and counterpoint meant for the opening poster who raised the original question.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

biggreen said:


> Well, if your not to fussy then that is a great way to go. A $400 MIM standard and an American standard have a pretty big gap between them in quality/playabilty, a gap that can't really be bridged with $150 in upgrades IMO. I am not saying the MIM standards aren't good for what you pay for them, they are decent enough guitars, though I think the Squires are really just as good for even less money, making them a better value. Which upgrades would you do anyway?
> 
> My comments aren't really meant to convert anyone from what works for them, but simply and counterpoint meant for the opening poster who raised the original question.


We'll have to agree to disagree on the perceived gap in quality and playability.

I think the gap is quite tiny and certainly not enough to justify the price gap.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

I agree with Milkman. Seems to me there's a premium placed on the Made In America label for high-end Fender and Gibson guitars, one not warranting the actual additional money hit, but tapping profitably nonetheless into a fierce loyalty/nostalgia sentiment. That's a very rich vein to tap.

In short, they're counting on the MIA label to reap the better profit margins... yet those bigger profit margins to the guitar makers themselves do not necessarily translate into greater quality control for the end buyers.

It's also true that it costs significantly more to make a guitar States-side, but they pump up the cost to cover that, and then some. Their right to do so, of course - all I'm saying is "buyer beware."


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## biggreen (Mar 23, 2008)

Maxer said:


> I agree with Milkman. Seems to me there's a premium placed on the Made In America label for high-end Fender and Gibson guitars, one not warranting the actual additional money hit, but tapping profitably nonetheless into a fierce loyalty/nostalgia sentiment. That's a very rich vein to tap.
> 
> In short, they're counting on the MIA label to reap the better profit margins... yet those bigger profit margins to the guitar makers themselves do not necessarily translate into greater quality control for the end buyers.
> 
> It's also true that it costs significantly more to make a guitar States-side, but they pump up the cost to cover that, and then some. Their right to do so, of course - all I'm saying is "buyer beware."



Well, construction costs are one thing, but you are not getting the same product either. Nearly every component of the MIM standard and the American standard are diferent, some of them very different. They don't play the same, sound the same and they defintately don't look the same, and the diferences in the Gibson line are even further apart then the Fenders.



The biggest differences in bang for the buck are found, in most guitars, between the $500 and $1000 models. When you start spending over $1200 or so the differences become pretty subtle. I mean c'mon a $4000 strat? lol.http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Fender-Custom-Shop-1966-Stratocaster-Firemist-Silver-Metallic-Closet-Classic-LTD?sku=517920


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

biggreen said:


> Well, construction costs are one thing, but you are not getting the same product either. Nearly every component of the MIM standard and the American standard are diferent, some of them very different. They don't play the same, sound the same and they defintately don't look the same, and the diferences in the Gibson line are even further apart then the Fenders.
> 
> 
> 
> The biggest differences in bang for the buck are found, in most guitars, between the $500 and $1000 models. When you start spending over $1200 or so the differences become pretty subtle. I mean c'mon a $4000 strat? lol.http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Fender-Custom-Shop-1966-Stratocaster-Firemist-Silver-Metallic-Closet-Classic-LTD?sku=517920



A lot of this comes down to opinion at least in reference to the "biggest diferences in bang for the buck".

I think these days there's much less of a gap in quality with guitars in the $300 ~ $1000 range than there was ten or twenty years ago. I've spent lots of time playing Strats off the wall, MIMs, MIAs whatever and the truth is, they all sound similar if similarly configured (pickups and wiring). 

You ask "I mean c'mon, a $4000 Strat?".

I might just as easily ask "I mean c'mon, a $1200. Strat?".



As for the incremental improvements in high end guitars, you're preaching to the choir here.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I've found that the MIM deluxe and signature strats are quite good. Higher quality parts. My Jimmie Vaughan strat is one nice axe - I just love the maple soft V neck.


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## biggreen (Mar 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> A lot of this comes down to opinion at least in reference to the "biggest diferences in bang for the buck".
> 
> I think these days there's much less of a gap in quality with guitars in the $300 ~ $1000 range than there was ten or twenty years ago. I've spent lots of time playing Strats off the wall, MIMs, MIAs whatever and the truth is, they all sound similar if similarly configured (pickups and wiring).
> 
> ...



Except if you count inflation, that is about how much a strat cost in '57, which if I remember correctly from what I read was about $250 at the time. You could say they sound the same, and you could also say an Epiphone les Paul sounds the same as a Gibson, it just wouldn't be true. :smile:

Obviously it is all a matter of opinion on wether it is worth it to spen the extra money for incrementaly better hardware/ wood and construction, a lot of that is going to depend on your budget and how much you deem those improvements worth. One thing is for certain, they aren't the same guitars.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

i'll add that while a good player will sound just as good on a cheaper guitar, if the electronics and setup are of excellent quality, i know personally that as a player, i can't (generally) stretch out nearly as far on a cheaper guitar. i have a little squier 51 that has a killer setup, and great pickups, and i enjoy playing it.. i have an ibanez talman with duncan alnicos and CTS pots and a perfect setup (and 3 other good electrics).. i love playing that guitar, and it sounds great... but if i had an important gig, or recording session? i'm grabbing my MIA tele, there's just no question in my mind.. it's the guitar that has the finest basic woods, and the finest overall materials of construction (i've upgraded the pickups, and i'll probably be doing so again soon), and the tone is just there, in a way that it isn't on the cheaper guitars. i have two very nice flat tops, an alvarez and a santa cruz. i don't play the santa cruz as much, the alvarez is such a killer axe... but again, gig or recording? it's no choice... i don't even have a pickup in the alvarez, and i bought it to be my "stage guitar", lol... i'll get around to it. 

i mean, at the end of the day, the only rule is "do what makes you happiest", and if you don't see the value in an american made guitar, then wonderful.. you got yourself a cheap date... me, i feel it's worth paying for in the end, and that's the product of several years of heavy experimenting and the expenditure of many thousands of dollars spent working out what i really wanted from my rig. what i learned is that while a BMW 7-series and a KIA Magentis will both get you where you're going in style, there is still a reason why the BMW is so much more money.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

biggreen said:


> Well, if your not to fussy then that is a great way to go. A $400 MIM standard and an American standard have a pretty big gap between them in quality/playabilty, a gap that can't really be bridged with $150 in upgrades IMO. I am not saying the MIM standards aren't good for what you pay for them, they are decent enough guitars, though I think the Squires are really just as good for even less money, making them a better value. Which upgrades would you do anyway?
> 
> My comments aren't really meant to convert anyone from what works for them, but simply and counterpoint meant for the opening poster who raised the original question.


i see no gap in quality or playability. 
and both the mia and mim are assembled by mexicans- only on different sides of the border.
either of these will require a teardown and reconfiguration once i get them home anyway



> Nearly every component of the MIM standard and the American standard are diferent, some of them very different. They don't play the same, sound the same and they defintately don't look the same,


you are incorrect, but anyway, welcome to the forum eric johnson.

there is only one reason why fender usa exits today- because folks will pay for them. 
i will confess- all my mij strats had the made in japan part scratched off the neck heel soon as i got them. i used to be that way.


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## biggreen (Mar 23, 2008)

fraser said:


> i see no gap in quality or playability.
> and both the mia and mim are assembled by mexicans- only on different sides of the border.
> either of these will require a teardown and reconfiguration once i get them home anyway
> 
> ...


Lol, that is funny, you would scratch the labels off your guitars? Umm Okay, thanks for sharing, however if your are insinuating that I would be ashamed to own a guitar made in Japan or Mexico like you then how about taking a minute to read my signtature and see the 2 guitars I currently own (hint Elitist SGs are made in Japan by Epiphone and proud of it). before those 2 I owned an Ibanez which I loved and a MIJ JV series Squier 52tele which was great. The only reason I own the American Standard is because I returned my MIM Classic players Strat I had bought after a couple weeks as it just didn't meet my expectations for how much it cost. ($800) I have never been ashamed of any guitar i have owned, especially to the point where I scratched labels off of headstocks to try and fool people.

Now that we are past that, let's actually look at these identical strats then shall we...


MIM Standard











American Standard










Aside from the obvious differnces in wood, ( sunburst mexi strats use an actual veneer top which is why the one above looks like its 1 peice as opossed to the MIA which doesn't use a veneer to hide multiple joints, mines even 1 piece) as well as the stagerd grover made tuners, and 2 point copper infused High mass bridge for better sustain, Micro adjustable neck joint, rolled finger board edges, 22nd fret, and other differences you can't see like fret size and finish, neck shape, and inner electronics like pots and pick ups, and of course the included SKB HSC instead of very cheaply made gig bag, then ya I'd agree they are basically identical guitars, I mean, they are the same basic shape right? :smile:

Anyway, my point is the MIM strat is a great guitar, for what it's worth. Is it the same guitar as the American standard just assembled somewhere else? Absolutely not, and to pretend it is is an exercise in ignorance. To say they play/sound the same is basically saying that no matter what you pay for a strat $400 or $4000 you are getting the exact same guitar, that is ridiculous. 

Either way, if you feel like your mim strat is as good as any other strat out there, then good, consider yourself lucky, others have to pay considerably more money to get that same level of satisfaction as you. If it works for you then great.

Oh, and BTW, thanks for the great warm welcome to the forum!


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Offhand, I'd say get the US made any day. At the very least it will hold its value better for resale. 
The couple of MIM Fenders I've tried (bought one on a whim on evilbay, sold it again as quickly as possible) have been horrible. And you will end up spending a chunk just to get it up to par with a US made guitar. Made in Japan is a different thing altogether -- some of those are/were great guitars. I just don't think Fender really cares about quality control much with the MIM or elsewhere models, and you'll always be getting second best. 
This is not to say a US made guitar will always be fantastic, but your chances are higher it'll be better. has anyone played a Highway One? Just wondering where they cut corners to get it so cheap in comparison to the other models.

Edit: Just read through some of the snippy comments in this thread and I'm kinda surprised anyone would get remotely out of shape over this issue. It's a guitar. Grab a couple, close your eyes and play. Buy the one you like. It's pretty easy. FWIW, best Strat I ever had was a 1978 Tokai Goldstar, which I stupidly sold to a guy who routed it for a humbucker. Doh!


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

biggreen said:


> Except if you count inflation, that is about how much a strat cost in '57, which if I remember correctly from what I read was about $250 at the time. You could say they sound the same, and you could also say an Epiphone les Paul sounds the same as a Gibson, it just wouldn't be true. :smile:
> 
> Obviously it is all a matter of opinion on wether it is worth it to spen the extra money for incrementaly better hardware/ wood and construction, a lot of that is going to depend on your budget and how much you deem those improvements worth. One thing is for certain, they aren't the same guitars.


I think comparing the Gibbie / Epi connection with the MIA / MIM one is a bit misleading. 

Fenders are machines. Gibsons are instruments. That doesn't mean I think Gibsons are superior, in fact for me it's just the opposite.

For the most part I think the Gibsons are better in general than Epis, but again, in my opinion you pay a huge premium for the Gibson name on the headstock.


We can beat this horse all day (poor little fella) but it's not going to make your opinions any more than they are, opinions.

I've played for many years and I've owned lots of strats. I think the MIMs are only marginally lower in quality than MIAs and not enough to justify the price gap. Take a good MIM (yes there are crappy MIMs AND crappy MIAs) and put your favourite pickups in it, set it up to your tastes and it's every bit as good as a MIA, IN MY OPINION.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

fraser said:


> there is only one reason why fender usa exits today- because folks will pay for them.
> i will confess- all my mij strats had the made in japan part scratched off the neck heel soon as i got them. i used to be that way.


well, saying that fender usa only exists because people will pay for them is just spurious. the same thing could be said about the NY times, ford motors, beluga caviar and tampax tampons. 

people online slag fender to no end. you know they sell what, 14,000 guitars a month? are you really saying that they don't know what they're doing? i'm not a fender robot, i don't think they make only great guitars, nor that there aren't (loads of) excellent alternatives... but they do make a fine instrument, and they are definitely competitively priced, and they have some of the best QC in the business bar none. 

if you don't see that the difference between MIA and MIM guitars is worth the money, then you get to save a few hundred bucks on your quest for the perfect guitar, and good for you. i have no trouble discerning the differences, and i think that fender's pricing strategy is actually pretty fair. they're consistently one of the least expensive and highest quality guitars on the market. hell, people now are paying $3,500 for mid seventies strats... and THOSE are crappy guitars for the most part


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I WILL agree that Fender pricing makes a lot more sense than the other "big" names.

Paying $1500. to $1800. for a working guitar is a bit pricey, but still realistic.

I prefer to go with their lower priced modes and bring them up to my standards with a little TLC.


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## happydude (Oct 15, 2007)

What the hell did I start? lofu


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

happydude said:


> What the hell did I start? lofu


A discussion.

I don't think anyone is getting bent out of shape over it.

It's what we do here.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Milkman said:


> I WILL agree that Fender pricing makes a lot more sense than the other "big" names.


I wish I could say the same for their naming schemes though. It's like a bunch of marketdroids from Oracle and Starbucks jumped ship over there and decided let's rename everything in the most confusing way possible...oh and let's change it every couple of months too. 
Standard, American Standard, Deluxe, American Deluxe, American Vintage, Classic, Light Ash, Ash, American Ash, Standard Double Mocha Frappacino Vintage Hot Rod...what the hell is what? A Standard used to be a basic made in the USA model, now it seems a standard is MIM? So, does that mean a Deluxe is also MIM? What _is_ a Highway One? And they've done away with the Albert Collins model? Are they nuts?


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Fender's doubtless pretty bad with the confusing marketing, but have you looked at Gibson's guitar of the week program? I think it actually serves to water down their branding because there are now so many flavours of SG and LP out there... not to mention what a cynical marketing ploy it is, IMO anyway.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

Maxer said:


> Fender's doubtless pretty bad with the confusing marketing, but have you looked at Gibson's guitar of the week program? I think it actually serves to water down their branding because there are now so many flavours of SG and LP out there... not to mention what a cynical marketing ploy it is, IMO anyway.


My thoughts exactly. I wonder if the underlying principle is to create confusion in the used market, to drive sales of new gear, or if that's an unintended consequence. 
The one thing they have done for themselves--both Fender and Gibson--is essentially sew up the budget 'copies' market. When I was a kid, there were a thousand different budget copies--all the Satellite / Hondo / Kay , aswell as the better ones, that Tokai / Ibanez etc. put out -- now you don't see quite so much of that because why buy a plywood plankocaster when you can get a guitar you can call a real Fender (by Squier) or a _real_ Fender (MIM), whatever _real_ means anyways. Same with Gibson/Epi/Orville. 
They've diluted the brand, but have pretty much cornered the market ,so they're getting all the cash. 

I still think it's kinda funny that people play the blues on $20,000+ guitars, and custom shop guitars are nice, but the mojo everyone's trying to capture was the $125 guitar Jimmy Page/Buddy Holly/Ritchie Blackmore etc. got on hire/purchase for their 15th birthday.

I also remember when the Japanese guitars were the "cheap nasty Asian knockoffs" and some of those guitars are really great. 
But I think the Fender/Gibson emphasis on the modern budget models is not geared toward quality control. They don't do a stellar job on QC for their higher end models (you still see dogs in the store for $3000+), so I can't imagine they really care that much about the lower end market. 

I've played a few Korean Epis and MIM Fenders (not to mention MIROC Squiers - yikes) and they felt cheap, while I had Squiers & Tokais in the 80s that were really nice. 

But hey, I'm sure someone somewhere laughed at Leslie West for his cheap student model guitar back in the day, and he certainly did OK with it.

I still think buy what you like is the end of this kind of discussion.


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## elindso (Aug 29, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Honestly that was not a dig. It was more my opinion that most people who may THINK they can't swap pickups out probably could.
> 
> Of course there's nothing saying you have to LIKE doing it. Personally although I can figure out how to do most things on a car, I have no interest whatsoever in doing so.
> 
> *As for the parents th*ing, I guess I just meant that someone who is say thirteen or fourteen may have no access to or experience with a soldering gun,


Mike my parents are 82 and 79 so they won't help. I don't know how. I also really don't want to.

I hate changing strings. That stuff should be done by my roadie and guitar tech Lee Dickson.

Both of Milk's Fenders are really nice players. I'd but either for $250.:smile:

I bought to MIM Strats NEW form the states CHEAP one was a players deluxe with noisless pups $450, the other was a regualr MIM chapie $295. They tuners on the chap one are crap, but they work.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Ahhhh .... the never-ending debate.

Personally, I've played a lot of crap in my life - mostly it's because it's what I could afford at the time. Now I can afford better and I feel that I deserve better so ... whether they are a better value or not, I buy U.S.-made guitars - if for no other reason than they make me feel better.

Same lines as my father finally getting his Cadillac after driving Chevs all his life. If you look at a car as transportation then there's no way you can justify a Caddy over a Chev, a Rolex over a Timex, or an R9 over an Epi.

It's an emotional purchase - and that emotion may be "I don't care", or "I'm a rebel" or "Look at me - I've arrived" but it is the primary difference between a $300 and a $3,000 guitar - or a $10,000 and a $60,000 car.


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## biggreen (Mar 23, 2008)

allthumbs56 said:


> Ahhhh .... the never-ending debate.
> 
> Personally, I've played a lot of crap in my life - mostly it's because it's what I could afford at the time. Now I can afford better and I feel that I deserve better so ... whether they are a better value or not, I buy U.S.-made guitars - if for no other reason than they make me feel better.
> 
> ...



For many this may be true. Honestly I couldn't care less, (other than for resales sake I suppose). When I show my buddies or people I meet my guitars I never mention, or even think to mention where they are made, really who cares? I let the guitar speak for itself. I don't think there is any image enhancement attached to owning any particular guitar, I knwo it doesn't make me look cooler to anyone. The MIM strat still says Fender on it, none of those reason mean anything to me personally, I don't think any of my buddies or open mic pals care much either. 

To me it really has nothing to do with emotion and just comes down to the guitar, people can choose to believe or assume differently but it doesn't change the fact. 

Infact, if the mexican standard actually was the same guitar as the American standard and had all of the same features and components but was less money I would have bought it, unfortunately it isn't.

Again, I am not trying to make anyone feel bad about their guitar, or tell them it isn't good. Everyone has different needs and demands from their instruments as well as a different budget priorities. My hope is that everyone enjoys their guitars as much as I do mine.

:rockon:


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## elindso (Aug 29, 2006)

*"My hope is that everyone enjoys their guitars as much as I do mine."*



Nothing else matters about it.

That said mine is still nicer than yours:smile:


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

*Beauty is in the eye of the beholder...*

We all have different tastes, and I think that is a wonderful thing!

If money were no object, I would drive a little Toyota pickup, about ten years old, with a brand new V-8 engine, 5-speed manual transmission, and a new suspension, with tuned exhaust headers and dual tailpipes...but the finish of the exterior would be bondo, covered with primer. I'm just contrary that way.

And if I could afford a MIA Fender, I would prefer to take the money, buy an AllParts SRO Fat neck, a new MIM Strat body, which I would refinish to suit myself, and install quality hardware and wiring, and the best pickups money could buy. Then I would pay to have it set up perfectly. 

Doesn't make me right or wrong, just different. And that's a good thing!


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

> Lol, that is funny, you would scratch the labels off your guitars? Umm Okay, thanks for sharing, however if your are insinuating that I would be ashamed to own a guitar made in Japan or Mexico like you then how about taking a minute to read my signtature and see the 2 guitars I currently own


nope, not trying to insinuate that- sorry if i sounded that way-
when i first started using japanese strats it as because i had broken several costly american ones, and bieng pretty much homeless and broke, it seemed dumb to continue, so i started getting the japanese ones- i hated seeing the word "japan" on them, so scratched it off. nobody else knew the difference, but i did. i grew out of it.



> Aside from the obvious differnces in wood, ( sunburst mexi strats use an actual veneer top which is why the one above looks like its 1 peice as opossed to the MIA which doesn't use a veneer to hide multiple joints, mines even 1 piece) as well as the stagerd grover made tuners, and 2 point copper infused High mass bridge for better sustain, Micro adjustable neck joint, rolled finger board edges, 22nd fret, and other differences you can't see like fret size and finish, neck shape, and inner electronics like pots and pick ups, and of course the included SKB HSC instead of very cheaply made gig bag, then ya I'd agree they are basically identical guitars, I mean, they are the same basic shape right?


perhaps this is the reason hy id buy the mim first- i dont like modern tuners, i like gotoh, and use their kluson repros on most everything-
2 point copper infused High mass bridge for better sustain? whatever that is, i dont want it- i use a vintage style bridge-
Micro adjustable neck joint i dont want either, shims are good enough-
i roll my own fingerboards-
i never use anything above the 20th fret unless im sliding, and prefer the vintage styling of a 21 fret neck-
the med jumbo frets on the mim standard are as big as id want to go, preferring the smaller vintage size really, and it just a standard c shape neck-
mim have the same cts pots and wiring as the mia standard, and i pretty much always change the pups to something else-
you got me on the case, but i let the dealer keep the gig bag and pay no ta xes-

so for me, id be paying way more for a guitar that would need to get the same upgrade anyway.
sorry if i sounded mean- didnt really intend it that way- i spilt beer on my keyboard and the s x and w buttons stopped working that night lol, so i am cutting and pasting them- got frustrated. still cutting and pasting the s x w' s lol



> well, saying that fender usa only exists because people will pay for them is just spurious. the same thing could be said about the NY times, ford motors, beluga caviar and tampax tampons.


yup. i have no interest in luxury items. and in my opinion, fender mexico is closer to the original fender bussiness model- a perfect one as i see it-
nothing wrong with the luxury of a rolex or a usa fender, just pointless from my point of view.
so again, what may be your treasure, would be useless frivolity to me- but ahh well, all this cutting and pasting is pissing me off again- gotta get a new keyboard. i keep forgetting to pick one up after work lol-
:food-smiley-004:


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

> If money were no object, I would drive a little Toyota pickup, about ten years old, with a brand new V-8 engine, 5-speed manual transmission, and a new suspension, with tuned exhaust headers and dual tailpipes...but the finish of the exterior would be bondo, covered with primer. I'm just contrary that way.


im contrary that way too- :smile:


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## biggreen (Mar 23, 2008)

fraser said:


> ..... and in my opinion, fender mexico is closer to the original fender bussiness model- a perfect one as i see it-
> nothing wrong with the luxury of a rolex or a usa fender, just pointless from my point of view.



Something interesting to note.

1954 the first American made telecaster is released at a sales price of 249.50 +$39.50 for a HSC (MSRP) Fast forward to 2008 and accordong to inflation that same $249.50 = $1913.87

A brand new American Vintage 57 Stratocaster is MSRP $1999.99 and it comes with a HSC, basically making it the same price as it was in 1954. Of course you can get it at a street price of around $1500, and of course for some reason Fender and Gibson charge a premium for the reissues even though the technology in them costs less to build, which is why the Squires and low end fenders use many of the same technologies today.

So in all actual fact, the current US Standard model strat has decreased in cost by 50%, and the Mexi strat is less than 25% of the original cost.

The US Standard Fender could only be called luxury in comparison to an imported, less adorned model, IMO, being at 50% the cost of the original which was supposed to be priced for the everyman. Of course in todays climate where you can import a pretty decent guitar from Korea for $500, a $1000 guitar may seem like a luxury to some, but I guess to others who would spend $2500 on a base model PRS, it would seem like a budget model.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

biggreen said:


> Something interesting to note.
> 
> 1954 the first American made telecaster is released at a sales price of 249.50 +$39.50 for a HSC (MSRP) Fast forward to 2008 and accordong to inflation that same $249.50 = $1913.87
> 
> ...



Right, and ten years ago you had to pay $2000. to get a decent laptop. You can get a very capable one for $600 now.

Apples and oranges.


We all rationalize our purchases, whether it's me for being "frugal" or you for peeing money away.

At the end of the day, it's your money or mine to spend.


Do you get a better guitar for the extra $$$. As long as you think you do, you do, but in spite of your protests to teh contrary, it IS after all, a matter of opinion.


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## biggreen (Mar 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Right, and ten years ago you had to pay $2000. to get a decent laptop. You can get a very capable one for $600 now.
> 
> *Apples and oranges.*
> 
> ...



Yes, I agree. Comparing the exact same guitars basically unchanged 50 years later to computers which change dialy and are built on a technology that is constantly depreciating in value, is comparing apples to oranges, so why would you bother doing it? :smile:

Computers, real estate, oil. There values are based on many variables that have more or less little to do with inflation. My comparison was not apples to oranges. It was apples to apples.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

biggreen said:


> Yes, I agree. Comparing the exact same guitars basically unchanged 50 years later to computers which change dialy and are built on a technology that is constantly depreciating in value, is comparing apples to oranges, so why would you bother doing it? :smile:
> 
> Computers, real estate, oil. There values are based on many variables that have more or less little to do with inflation. My comparison was not apples to oranges. It was apples to apples.


So you completely ignore the realities of the global economy?

Must be nice. I wish I could do that, but I'm reminded daily that the world has changed considerably since 1959.


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## tubetwang (Dec 18, 2007)

Get an SX from Rondo for 139$ (two day delivery to MTL for 60$ with FedEx) and put a Callaham in it...set it up for your playing...plug it in to an tweaked Express or Liverpool clone and play.

In the 60' there was not much competition...

Today the Chinese and Corean are pumping out classic stuff for the players with a good sense of value for the money.

Posers are still living in the past.

Akin to when dudes were still buying American cars in the 70', smart duders knew better getting themselves Japanese wheels.


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## Wheeman (Dec 4, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Right, and ten years ago you had to pay $2000. to get a decent laptop. You can get a very capable one for $600 now.
> 
> Apples and oranges.


For what its worth, I'm typing this up on a laptop from 5 years ago that cost almost $1800. It still works well without any major issues during those 5 years. Compared to my brothers' laptops, more recent and less expensive, those ones only lasted a year and a half to two years before another computer was necessary. For $600, a capable laptop is expendable, like a MIM would be compared to a MIA. 

Nowadays, due to Moore's law (that the # of transistors will double every 18 months or something to that effect), paying $600 for something that will need to be replaced in 2 years is reasonable. For a gigging guitarist, paying for a 'cheaper' guitar that you know will be beaten and thrashed sounds reasonable. 

Just my opinion.


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## biggreen (Mar 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> So you completely ignore the realities of the global economy?
> 
> Must be nice. I wish I could do that, but I'm reminded daily that the world has changed considerably since 1959.




Lol, sure thing. Sure the world has changed, but your example proves very little.



Milkman said:


> Right, and ten years ago you had to pay $2000. to get a decent laptop. You can get a very capable one for $600 now.


You are completely right on this, 10 years ago a decent laptop was $2000 and now you can get one for $600, but what does that have to do with the Strat? It is a very poor comparison.

How much did that same strat cost 10 years ago??? Not $6000, as your computer example would suggest. Infact that same $2000 MSRP strat now was likely about $1650 back then. Computer prices have declined do to technology obsolecence. A 10 year old PC is nearly useless and shares none of the same components as a current model, but a 10 year old 57' strat is still very sought after and built to pretty much the exact same specs using the same parts. 

The strat has steadily risen in price, but not as much as inflation, that was my point. It is pretty simple I think, and very true. 

Leo's vision was for an _affordable_ intrument for the common working musician. If it was _affordable_ in 1954 at $249.50 ($279.00 w/HSC), then it is _affordable_ now, over 50 years later at $999 w/HSC for an American Standard, there aren;t a whole lot of products that only cost under 4 times what they did 50 years ago, certainly not cars, furniture, comic books or bubble gum.

I do believe that fender, like Gibson, charge too high a premium on their reissue guitars like the 57',largley in the last 10 years which have seen a jump in prices for those models, especially ones that have been beat with screwdrivers.


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## Wheeman (Dec 4, 2007)

biggreen said:


> ... Computer prices have declined do to technology obsolecence. A 10 year old PC is nearly useless and shares none of the same components as a current model, but a 10 year old 57' strat is still very sought after and built to pretty much the exact same specs using the same parts. ...


A 10 year old PC is never useless. If it still works, it can be re-purposed; its still a valid analogy, in my opinion. The price for computer components has declined because it is now easier and cheaper to put more and more parts into a single chip.

Really though, guitars haven't changed*.* There is not much progress in the way of technical innovation in how the instrument is built or played.


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## biggreen (Mar 23, 2008)

Wheeman said:


> *A 10 year old PC is never useless. If it still works, it can be re-purposed; its still a valid analogy, in my opinion.* The price for computer components has declined because it is now easier and cheaper to put more and more parts into a single chip.
> 
> Really though, guitars haven't changed*.* There is not much progress in the way of technical innovation in how the instrument is built or played.



lol, well that is why I said "nearly" I am sure that there are people out there running windows 98 on a 486 and surfing the net on dial up. How about instead of 'useless' we go with 'worthless' instead. Because that 486 laptop can be had at my local value village for $50.00 tops, now if only I could get a 10 year old US standard strat there for that price. :smile:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

biggreen said:


> Lol, sure thing. Sure the world has changed, but your example proves very little.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Our world is changing in regards to where products and commodities are produced and how much they cost.

When Strats were introduced it would not have been possible to get similar quality from Mexico, Korea or China. Comparing what a guitar cost in 1959 to what it costs now without considering this reality is unrealistic. I thik my comparison makes perfect sense, but frankly it seems like you are inclined to see your opinions as gospel and mine as ....well, wrong.

That's ok. There are others who share your inclinations.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Wheeman said:


> A 10 year old PC is never useless. If it still works, it can be re-purposed; its still a valid analogy, in my opinion. The price for computer components has declined because it is now easier and cheaper to put more and more parts into a single chip.
> 
> Really though, guitars haven't changed*.* There is not much progress in the way of technical innovation in how the instrument is built or played.


I don't think CNC was really a factor in Leo's early days. I'll admit that among guitarists, inovation and new technology in terms of instrument design are almost dirty words, but the methods and cost of manufacturing are pretty different now than they were back then.


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## Evilmusician (Apr 13, 2007)

To me IMO, neither go MIJ some of the nicest strats i've played but like anything if its comfortable and you like the sound who cares what the headstock says cheers! :rockon:


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## biggreen (Mar 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Our world is changing in regards to where products and commodities are produced and how much they cost.
> 
> When Strats were introduced it would not have been possible to get similar quality from Mexico, Korea or China. Comparing what a guitar cost in 1959 to what it costs now without considering this reality is unrealistic. I thik my comparison makes perfect sense, but frankly it seems like you are inclined to see your opinions as gospel and mine as ....well, wrong.
> 
> That's ok. There are others who share your inclinations.


I don't belive my opinions are gospel, or that yours are wrong, and there is no need to get dramatic about it, infact you are the one that origianlly refuted my opinion saying I was comparing apples to oranges. I do think your PC analogy was weak and is akin to comparing apples to toasters. PC's didn't even exist 50 years ago and digital technology based products like those are in contrast to almost everything else for sale on the planet in that the cost lowers every year on almost all of it, unlike guitars.

A better example would be say maybe, a Ford Mustang, which when released in 64' cost $2500. Now 40+ years later a base model Mustang will cost you somewhere around 10 times that amount, or better yet the minumum wage of the US workers making and buying those guitars in the 50's was $1.00/hr, and now is $5.85... ouch! However still above the 400% increase in the Strats price. :smile: 

So Joe Blow sweeping the floors in the Fender factory in 1956 had to work 280 hours to buy that same Strat that the kid working at Mcdonalds today only need work 170 hours to get, to me it would seem Leo's vision is still being realized in Corona California.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I'll admit that among guitarists, inovation and new technology in terms of instrument design are almost dirty words, but the methods and cost of manufacturing are pretty different now than they were back then.


Agreed. Guitarists tend to be a rather conservative lot in many respects. Look at how many LPs, Teles and Strats sell these days - and the bazillion clones and reinterpretations of same. Many of us are in pursuit of icons. There's nothing wrong with that, but it is fascinating how narrowly we tend to focus on a fairly humble selection of classic looks.

Innovation works its way slowly into the mainstream.... in the case of guitars, very slowly indeed. And in the guitar market, the very appearance of tradition (and using advertising tapping into that huge respect for tradition and nostalgia) goes a long way towards keeping innovation in check.


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## biggreen (Mar 23, 2008)

Maxer said:


> Agreed. Guitarists tend to be a rather conservative lot in many respects. Look at how many LPs, Teles and Strats sell these days - and the bazillion clones and reinterpretations of same. Many of us are in pursuit of icons. There's nothing wrong with that, but it is fascinating how narrowly we tend to focus on a fairly humble selection of classic looks.
> 
> Innovation works its way slowly into the mainstream.... in the case of guitars, very slowly indeed. And in the guitar market, the very appearance of tradition (and using advertising tapping into that huge respect for tradition and nostalgia) goes a long way towards keeping innovation in check.


+2, history has shown both the big 2 that when they change things, they hurt sales, to a degree anyway. I also think that is the big reason why they are able to charge such a premium for RI that cost them less to produce then the standard models based on the fact they spend $0 in R&D and are using older technologies that cost less to produce. Hence the reasoning behind 'classic' components on $150 Squires, or the fact that a 61' RI SG costs $600 more than an SG standard when aside from pickups the biggest differences are in the neck and body shape which shouldn't affect production cost at all. 

they know people buying Reissues are nostalgic and will pay a premium to get that product, in the same way people buying standard models don't want a guitar that strays far from the originals they have evolved from. Look at any of the standard models from fender or gibson, you would have to be a guitar player with an eye for detail to even see a difference between them and the originals.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

this is still a one sided view though. costs have skyrocketed on luthier grade woods, on the energy required to manufacture, on labour costs, on licensing for EPA requirements, and etc and etc (yes, also on marketing, they do spend a big dollar on that). the VRI guitars use the most expensive woods, in large pieces, so while the manufacturing is about the same, the materials (stainless steel, cloth wire, etc) are quite a bit more, a big thing is the finishing process... i know it cost fender a LOT of money to be able to spray nitro finishes, so the customer will be bearing that cost as well. 

anyways, i know fender is the 200 lb gorilla of the guitar world, so they're automatically going to get the lion's share of complaints, but i don't think it's true that your extra money doesn't buy you extra guitar.. although i would bet that they could sell the VRIs at about $1500 and still be as profitable as an MIA standard.. but of course they turn over less of the VRI, and since profit = margin x turnover, they're going to want a bigger margin on a smaller seller. just business, and you most certainly can't fault fender's business acumen...


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Excellent points all... in particular, your observation abut "the most expensive woods, in large pieces" is spot on. More and more these days, unless you're willing to pay top dollar for a premium make, you might get very nice wood but it's likely going to be two or three pieces making up a body rather than the single slab that used to be common way back when. 

I don't know what a 3 pc. mahogany bodied guitar is going to sound like next to an identical guitar made of a single slab of the same wood - if there's going to be a substantial difference or not - again, I think it's a very subjective thing for most players. But appearance-wise? A single piece is an elegant, simple, hugely attractive thing.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

biggreen said:


> Something interesting to note.
> 
> 1954 the first American made telecaster is released at a sales price of 249.50 +$39.50 for a HSC (MSRP) Fast forward to 2008 and accordong to inflation that same $249.50 = $1913.87
> 
> ...


yup- and guess what else- in 1998 i made $500 a week. its 2008, im still doing the same type of work, and i make $500 a week. this is not 1955 dude- when people had unions and shit and everybody was spending large cause the world was thier oyster- it is 2008 when you can find yurself dead broke on a sidewalk someplace overnight. watchout man- soon mexico will have your job too- the end is nigh!!!


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

> Look at any of the standard models from fender or gibson, you would have to be a guitar player with an eye for detail to even see a difference between them and the originals.


exactly- and why mess with perfection?
those mia standards are a very undesirable product for me- the mia reissue would be nice, but not at that price. maybe for $600 id be in-


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## biggreen (Mar 23, 2008)

fraser said:


> yup- and guess what else- in 1998 i made $500 a week. its 2008, im still doing the same type of work, and i make $500 a week. this is not 1955 dude- when people had unions and shit and everybody was spending large cause the world was thier oyster- it is 2008 when you can find yurself dead broke on a sidewalk someplace overnight. *watchout man- soon mexico will have your job too*- the end is nigh!!!


lol, maybe some people on this board would prefer that. Maybe, in a perfect world you will be able to buy only chinese made fenders and they will only be available at wallmart for $99.99, which would be great since we will all be working there and we will get staff discounts. 

:smilie_flagge17:


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

I believe you are overstating your case; some people on this board prefer to do that.


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## biggreen (Mar 23, 2008)

Maxer said:


> I believe you are overstating your case; some people on this board prefer to do that.


I believe I was just joking around with fraser, I think a lot of people on this board need to lighten up. :banana:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I think some folks need to accept that there are lots of people here with experience and knowledge and to realize that opinions and facts are not the same thing.

Simple and yet so hard for many to understand.:smile:


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## dwagar (Mar 6, 2006)

I think initial cash outlay has to factor into this.

For some guys, buying a MIA Strat is fine, for others, they'd have to save a very long time, but could buy an MIM today. Then upgrade when they can afford it.

IF they want to upgrade. 

I think the quality of the import guitars today is so far ahead of what we used to see in the 'lesser' brands, and probably 90% of them never get upgraded. A good setup, a little tweaking, and they are just fine for most guys.

Now, I have to admit I'm a Gibson guy. I can sit down with you over a beer and argue why a '59 Reissue Les Paul is worth the $. I also know a good Epi LP is a fantastic guitar for the $.

But I also have to admit I know very little about Fenders. When I decided I needed a Strat (IMO if you're gigging you should have a Strat, at least for some songs. I usually play 3 or 4 a night on the Strat, everything else the LP works), I hung around L&M for awhile, until I found a nice used MIA Standard Strat for $500 (this was maybe 10 years ago). It wasn't the Strat I'd have liked - it has a rosewood board (I'd have preferred Maple), it's Teal (I think that's what they call it - I'd have preferred a sunburst), but I bought it because I thought the price was right, it was MIA so I assumed the hardware, pickups, etc would be good. 

Being an older guy, and having owned quite a few guitars over the years, I think I differ from the younger guys in that I don't care what the guitar looks like, I don't care what color it is, etc. I just want to know it plays/sounds great. I found that in a $500 US Strat.

I did do one mod: Kenny at Axe in Calgary found me a Clapton circuit kit for $99. To me, that was way cheaper than starting on the 'playing pickups' madness to deliver what I wanted. And because (IMO anyway) all the hardware is high quality, I don't have to start the upgrade madness.

So, $600 and I've got exactly the guitar I want. To me, that's one big bonus you find with Fender, you don't have to drop big bucks to get there.


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## biggreen (Mar 23, 2008)

Milkman said:


> I think some folks need to accept that there are lots of people here with experience and knowledge and to realize that opinions and facts are not the same thing.
> 
> Simple and yet so hard for many to understand.:smile:


That hasn't been my impression at all. Pretty much everyones statements have been followed up with IMO, or led with 'I believe'. I haven't really read any opinions in this thread that have been presented as "facts", well except this out of nowhere oddity... 



Milkman said:


> Fenders are machines. Gibsons are instruments.


:food-smiley-004:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Welcome to my ignore list, biggreen. It's a rather exclusive group.:bow:


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

biggreen said:


> lol, maybe some people on this board would prefer that. Maybe, in a perfect world you will be able to buy only chinese made fenders and they will only be available at wallmart for $99.99, which would be great since we will all be working there and we will get staff discounts.
> 
> :smilie_flagge17:


lol- i think death is a better option myself-
:food-smiley-004:



> Welcome to my ignore list, biggreen. It's a rather exclusive group.


thats funny - lol


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## biggreen (Mar 23, 2008)

fraser said:


> lol- i think death is a better option myself-
> :food-smiley-004:



Glad to see there are some on this forum with a sense of humor and the ability to not take things too seriously. Thanks for the good debate. :wave:


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

fraser said:


> lol- i think death is a better option myself-
> :food-smiley-004:
> 
> 
> ...


LOL, no big deal. Some people just get under my skin. I'm to the point in life where I don't bother with them.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

biggreen said:


> I believe I was just joking around with fraser, I think a lot of people on this board need to lighten up. :banana:


And I believe I was just joking around with _you;_, using your own turn of phrase and pointing it gently back from whence it came. Alas, I neglected to serve up a little emoto-bot, such as a cute yellow winkie or smiley whatsit - feeling that too often they are used as silly crutches - icon-ettes helping to dumb down online discourse.

Ahh well. Such is life in a forum. Still, thus far the level of debate in here has been high, the level of acrimony and enduring spite remarkably low. We must be doing something right, despite all the opportunities for garbled signals.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

> thus far the level of debate in here has been high, the level of acrimony and enduring spite remarkably low. We must be doing something right, despite all the opportunities for garbled signals


well put- very poetic, and full o' truth.


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