# Songwriting vs. Production



## Andy (Sep 23, 2007)

I was just reading a thread on another board that I frequent about the album Stadium Arcadium by RHCP. One of the points that came up consistently was how badly produced the album is -- the bone dry sound, overcompression that would give Chris Lord-Alge pause, lopsided mixes, and the fact that it's mastered almost as badly as Californication. That being said, the material on the album is very strong and stands up well despite the mediocre production.

Are there any otherwise solid albums that you simply cannot listen to because of terrible production, or conversely, any albums that are musically unimpressive, but sound so great that you listen to them?


----------



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I always thought that "Exile on Main Street" Rolling Stones was poorly produced yet that seems to be the allure of it. I find my self loving that album as a classic.


----------



## Guest (Sep 24, 2009)

Funny: I don't mind the production on Stadium Arcadium. I like that there's guitar panned hard one side and processed-with-a-synth guitar panned hard on the other. I think it was a risky mix and master and I applaud them from trying something different.

As for song writing: definitely a superb album. _Michigan_ and _We Believe_ were standout tracks for me.

For albums mixed flat: check out _Ten_. That's an fairly bland mix but superb songs so yea, definitely it has held up.


----------



## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> I always thought that "Exile on Main Street" Rolling Stones was poorly produced yet that seems to be the allure of it. I find my self loving that album as a classic.


I dunno, the Stones have certainly had far more produced albums. Much of it was recorded in the basement of a mansion Keith Richards rented in the south of France.That's a factor any way you slice it. I particularly love the production on "Let It Loose". I think it's more uneven in production as oposed to badly produced. My $0.02

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exile_on_Main_St.

Shawn :food-smiley-004:


----------



## keto (May 23, 2006)

I'm not a big Metallica fan, but mostly can listen to their albums. I bought and consigned to the dustbin And Justice For All in 3 different formats, I just cannot listen to it. Whether it is the production, the mixing, the mastering or what I cannot say but it just sounds awful to me.


----------



## Lester B. Flat (Feb 21, 2006)

Jeff Beck's _Rough and Ready_ album is poorly produced. Beck produced it and it's one of my favorite Beck albums. It seems very narrow sonically. When the remastered CD came out I thought it might be an improvement, but no dice. Still love it, though!


----------



## neogardguitar (Dec 6, 2007)

I'm finding the Bruce Cockburn album Speechless kind of not produced to my taste.

Beautiful music and great playing but some of the guitar sounds are "off" to me.

N


----------



## seanmj (May 9, 2009)

Engineering/mixing or mastering for that matter is NOT production. It is part of the producer's job to oversee it.... but not production on its own.

From the original post's description... the album was badly mixed/mastered.

I would also add the latest Metallica record to the list. The loud wars in mastering have gone too far.

Sean Meredith-Jones
http://www.seanmeredithjones.com


----------



## seanmj (May 9, 2009)

I would also add that the consensus in how strong the material is musically would indicate strong production... and the producer did his job in that regard.

Sean Meredith-Jones
http://www.seanmeredithjones.com


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Little Feat, _Live From Neon Park_. has almost the worst acoustic guitar quack imaginable from folks who should know better. Great band, great tunes, superb playing, awful sound.

Peace, Mooh.


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Lots of Stones records have the bass mixed too low and indistinct, and the vocal a little high in the mix for my liking, though I otherwise love the band.

A few weeks ago I was forced, in a social situation, to sit through some Kenny Rogers. Before I could walk out, I was subjected to some of the worst bass mix...thump thump thump...never mind the sappy material. What do people see and hear in this crapola?

Peace, Mooh.


----------



## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

I find the first self titled Tragically Hip CD to be unlistenable due to the production values.

Pretty much every Collective Soul album after their blue self-titled sounds over-produced and lifeless.

Those are what comes to mind off the top of my head.


----------



## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

keto said:


> I'm not a big Metallica fan, but mostly can listen to their albums. I bought and consigned to the dustbin And Justice For All in 3 different formats, I just cannot listen to it. Whether it is the production, the mixing, the mastering or what I cannot say but it just sounds awful to me.


I always wondered if that was just me! The mix of the drums is horrible! No matter what drum he hit they all sounded the same and really crappy! The sound actually kind of makes me nauseous (not figuratively!... really nauseous!) The bass was practically mixed out to non-existent! Too bad as there are some great songs on there.


----------



## Guest (Sep 24, 2009)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> Pretty much every Collective Soul album after their blue self-titled sounds over-produced and lifeless.


Good call. Actually Blue is perfect, everything after is too glossy, and Hints is flat. IMO of course. Funny that.


----------



## Guest (Sep 24, 2009)

seanmj said:


> Engineering/mixing or mastering for that matter is NOT production. It is part of the producer's job to oversee it.... but not production on its own.


Sure it is. You're confusing roles with language. Production != everything the _Producer_ does. Production == "the act or process of producing something". That's the dictionary term and it applies here.


----------



## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

The last Metallica Album, co-incidentally also produced by Rick Rubin.


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

...i agree with many of the comments here.

sometimes a great song is just a great song, regardless of the production values or lack thereof.

sometimes a great record is just a great record, regardless of the quality of the songwriting, performances or production.

sometimes the performance itself transcends the quality of the songwriting and/or the production.

and, obviously, when all these elements are transcendant, that's as good as it gets.

-dh


----------



## Andy (Sep 23, 2007)

Starbuck said:


> The last Metallica Album, co-incidentally also produced by Rick Rubin.


There's your problem. Apparently the mastering house said that the tracks were absolutely mashed when they received them and couldn't do anything about it other than try to clean them up.

Rubin is a turd, only slightly better than Bob Rock...both bands should have gone with Brendan O'Brien if you ask me.


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I *love* Todd Rundgren's work, but sometimes he just goes over the top. Two of his albums from the 70's - "A Wizard, A True Star", and "Initiation" - are single LPs, but have way more content than could normally be fit onto an LP. Initiation has over an hour's content, and the typical vinyl LP would stuff around 40 minutes onto two sides. "Wizard" is no different.

As a result of the attempt to overstuff the LP, the sound is compressed down to nothing and the bass is all but absent (more bass = wider wiggles in the vinyl). The layering in the production suggests the masters would have been stupendous (it IS Todd, after all) but what came out at the end was blecchh...to paraphrase Alfred E. Neuman.


----------



## seanmj (May 9, 2009)

iaresee said:


> Sure it is. You're confusing roles with language. Production != everything the _Producer_ does. Production == "the act or process of producing something". That's the dictionary term and it applies here.


If you look on every major artist album, the producer receives their own credit. The mixer/engineer receives their own credit. The mastering engineer receives their own credit. 

The roles are distinctly different. The financial structure for compensation is also different. A producer gets paid differently than the engineers. There might be a flat fee plus points... which means the producer will get paid a percentage everytime the album sells. 

The engineers are usually paid a one time fee for services rendered.

In some cases, the producer is also the mixer engineer. Even in those cases... the credits are still listed separately.

Sean Meredith-Jones
http://www.seanmeredithjones.com


----------



## Guest (Sep 25, 2009)

seanmj said:


> If you look on every major artist album, the producer receives their own credit. The mixer/engineer receives their own credit. The mastering engineer receives their own credit.
> 
> The roles are distinctly different. The financial structure for compensation is also different. A producer gets paid differently than the engineers. There might be a flat fee plus points... which means the producer will get paid a percentage everytime the album sells.
> 
> ...


I don't even know where to begin with this. I grow weary of interactions with over-enthusiastic new members. Do we have a face palm smilie? No? I'll look one up...wait...this is even better:










Yea...


----------



## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

iaresee said:


> I don't even know where to begin with this. I grow weary of interactions with over-enthusiastic new members.



...they're developing a cure for that, even as we speak.

:smile:


----------



## Guest (Sep 25, 2009)

david henman said:


> ...they're developing a cure for that, even as we speak.
> 
> :smile:


I thought about it some more and Maybe seanmj wasn't responding to the OP? Maybe. That might explain things.

I should just take a break from the Internetz...


----------



## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


----------

