# Eb Tuning



## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

So…I just played with some guys. I show up and only then find out they play everything in Eb tuning. I’ve never really played in Eb except for a few minutes here and there…over 30 years. I generally avoid playing along with anything originally in Eb tuning on my own. So let’s just say it was…an adjustment on the fly. Oddly enough, I don’t think any of the songs we played were originally in Eb but I’m not sure. So everything we’re actually playing a half step down.

Now many of the songs I play using barre chords or capo anyhow so I could potentially play them in standard tuning but there are a couple that are largely open chords or riffs based on the open position.

So how do you guys deal with this? Set up a guitar for Eb and carry on? Play them in standard tuning a fret down? Retune back and forth…hopefully keeping the o Ed that I actually need to be in Eb together?Change the voicing of the chords (instead of playing the open Ebm, play it at the 68876 in standard tuning? Or two guitars set up properly for each? The two guitars isn’t really desirable due to space limitations. Maybe a pedal that would allow me to tune to standard and click and drop a half step? Does that exist?

I resist change and I would much prefer to stay with my gauge string in standard tuning for the same tension rather than setting up a guitar with fatter strings at the same tension and opening that whole can o’ worms.

Am I making too much of it? Does using the same gauge string and loosening it a half step make THAT much difference in the trust rod opposing tension? I imagine it would ultimately take relief out of the neck, making it a little more straight.

The strings felt a little floppy to me but it didn’t seem to affect whether I got buzzing frets…mind you there was a lot going on so it’s hard to tell.

Im just used to things feeling a certain way and it felt…..odd. I had to constantly check what I was doing, check my tuning etc.

Any other thoughts?

Fak. What a great excuse to play some Black Sabbath or old Aerosmith and….nuthin’


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

I regularly tune my guitar to Eb, why would be harder to explain. I suppose I just like messing with things. 

I have not really noticed much of a difference, sure it is a little looser and does change things some but nothing too crazy. 

My Northern is in D standard because I discovered that the flatwound 11's made the neck want to bend over and kiss its own asshole and I did not want to adjust the truss rod as I don't think it has moved in 30 years or so...

If the band is fun, tune down a half step and adjust, if not, forget about it and carry on.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

I have played in Eb for 20 years...i capo if i need to play something in standard with cowboy chords
I find i can sing better with tuning a bit lower


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

I think you are overthinking this. You just tune your guitar 1/2 step down and play like you normally would. Same chords, same strings.


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## Shaqrad (May 6, 2020)

I do have other guitars tuned to Standard but the one I play the most (strat) is tuned Eb. If it’s good for Jimi, it’s good for me.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

I auditioned for some guys once and it was the same deal. They told me once I got there.
That's a deal-breaker for me. I did the audition but that was it.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

2manyGuitars said:


> I auditioned for some guys once and it was the same deal. They told me once I got there.
> That's a deal-breaker for me. I did the audition but that was it.


What's the big deal?


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Mark Brown said:


> If the band is fun, tune down a half step and adjust, if not, forget about it and carry on.


Solid advice. Tuning down a half step is going to have a minimal effect on your guitar's setup (unless it's a floating locking trem). The slight decrease in relief and the lower string tension might lower the action a hair but it's not likely to be unusable. If your tuner is even relatively recent it's probably got a flat setting built in.

On the plus side, tuning down does offer a different experience- lower tension, a little fuller and heavier. Lots of famous albums were done that way and lots of bands did it live.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

It is just another trick guitar players do to try to mess with the bass player. Capo on the third fret. What chord are you playing - D. Tuned down, what chord are you playing D. Standard tuning, what chord are you playing D. They are actually playing F, C#, and D. Drives me crazy.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Guncho said:


> What's the big deal?


I don't exactly have "perfect pitch" but for example, when I hear a song in my head, it's in the exact key. Let's say I'm restringing a guitar and don't have a tuner around. I just pick a song, "play" it in my head, and tune to that.

If that song is being played a half-step down, it sounds _really_ wrong to me. Like "make my eye twitch" wrong. Now picture that for a 45 song set.

No thanks.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Guncho said:


> What's the big deal?





2manyGuitars said:


> I don't exactly have "perfect pitch" but for example, when I hear a song in my head, it's in the exact key. Let's say I'm restringing a guitar and don't have a tuner around. I just pick a song, "play" it in my head, and tune to that.
> 
> If that song is being played a half-step down, it sounds _really_ wrong to me. Like "make my eye twitch" wrong. Now picture that for a 45 song set.
> 
> No thanks.


And actually, a good example of this...
Our band does "You Wreck Me" by Tom Petty. Whether they tune up or capo, I don't know, but the song is a typical D-A-E riff but a half-step up. So Eb-Bb-F.
We capo at the first fret. One member suggested to not bother using the capo and just play it in E. We tried it and it sounded wrong. It wasn't just me either. Sometimes, your brain just knows a song sounds a certain way and that's it.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

2manyGuitars said:


> I just pick a song, "play" it in my head, and tune to that.


I think I can do that, I'm not sure if it's always in the right pitch. I'll have to try.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Hammerhands said:


> I think I can do that, I'm not sure if it's always in the right pitch. I'll have to try.


Imagine the opening riff from Rush's "Fly by Night" in your head. That's a D.
I try to do it in another key, but I can't.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Yes, I agree that the OP is overthinking this.

I play Eb on all my 25.5" scale guitars and standard E on all my Gibson LPs. For me, it's the best of both worlds.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

2manyGuitars said:


> Imagine the opening riff from Rush's "Fly by Night" in your head. That's a D.
> I try to do it in another key, but I can't.


I’ve heard that song maybe 5 times in my life and as soon as I read your post I could hear the D riff. Great, it works but now I’ve got a fuckin D note stuck in my head. Hopefully I won’t start walking into things and have to stop driving or something like that… lol


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Our band plays in E♭.
Easier to sing to.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I generally keep a couple of guitars tuned to E flat standard for accompaniment because it gives my voice a bit of a break. To maintain the feel and set-up, I simply gauge up slightly. One of those guitars happens to *seem* to like being tuned down too, it sounds even better I mean. I've managed to avoid bands that regularly tuned down, but it wouldn't bother me to have to tune down all the time.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

laristotle said:


> E♭.


.... you and your fancy alt key strokes showing up my lower case b


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I would just tune to Eb.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I tune my Strat to Eb because I use big strings. I use big strings because my clumsy hands can't feel thin ones. Everything else remains the same.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

laristotle said:


> Our band plays in E♭.
> Easier to sing to.


I get the reasoning and as a mediocre singer, believe me, I wish I could do it. But the human brain is a funny thing and mine is wired differently when it comes to pitch.

Picture watching Star Wars and instead of James Earl Jones voicing Darth Vader, it's Morgan Freeman. What's the big deal? They're both brilliant, dramatic actors with articulate voices. But it's just "wrong" and I can't tell my brain otherwise.

And as with many things in this world, your mileage may vary.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Now I want a dub over of Morgan Freeman as Vader and my life will not be complete until it happens.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I hear you. I generally hate changing keys. I always prefer to play in the original key. That’s how I remember the song in my head. It’s also easier to play along with the original for practice. (Don’t get me started on songs that were sped up or slowed down in production once recorded and are actually somewhere between keys).

I find that, often, when you change key, the tempo may change a little along with other small things and before you know it, the song sounds very different from the original. That being said, once I got used to playing everything tuned down a half step, this was less of an issue.

I liked the guys, good players but not so good that I felt like in couldn’t keep up, great atmosphere. It took a little while to find my “sonic space” but once I did I fit right in. So I’m inclined to work on it. But, if we don’t add some originally Eb tuning songs then I’m just going to have to get used to practicing with the original in E and then actually jamming in Eb. Which introduces another issue if I end up singing a few songs. Practicing in one key and performing in another will be impossible.

Here’s something I don’t understand…

If you sing tunes in Eb because it’s easier, but you’re singing a song that’s originally in G, now actually F#, then why can’t you sing in actual E? Never made sense to me.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

JBFairthorne said:


> If you sing tunes in Eb because it’s easier, but you’re singing a song that’s originally in G, now actually F#, then why can’t you sing in actual E? Never made sense to me.


I think the deal is...
We have 60 songs on our list. There are about a dozen where they're _just_ on the edge of my range so a half step makes all the difference. Rather than switching back and forth between tunings constantly, we're now an Eb band. The other tunes are just collateral damage.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

If it was a bunch of guys that I was jamming with infrequently I'd capo up and not worry about it. If I was jamming regularly as joined theyr band Id tune down, possibly go up a gauge in strings


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> If it was a bunch of guys that I was jamming with infrequently I'd capo up and not worry about it.


Yeah, but you can't capo down.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

You can capo up if you base the chords off of a different string rather than the E…but it gets murky and I would have to think about what I’m doing all the time. Too much work.


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## Paul M (Mar 27, 2015)

I've done it in bands with horns. Horn players tend to prefer the b keys, guitar players in standard tuning prefer # keys.

I've also tuned down a full tone to allow tenor sax and trumpet players to work off the same lead sheet as me. Digital piano players can do the same thing. That "trick" doesn't work with alto/bari sax.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

JBFairthorne said:


> If you sing tunes in Eb because it’s easier, but you’re singing a song that’s originally in G, now actually F#, then why can’t you sing in actual E? Never made sense to me.


For me and the guitarist, it comes down to hitting the high notes.


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## RJP110 (Sep 15, 2020)

Ummm, take the 30 seconds to tune to Eb. Jam the sh&t out of awesome songs. Then inversely retune up to E standard. Boom. Nailed it.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Why'd you have to go and make things so complicated?


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

The half tone flat made a big difference for vocal and particularly when I first started singing. That tuning was OK at home but when I started going to a lot of jams with different people all the time I just tuned to standard and by that time my voice had got a bit more range so I adapted. Capo up didn't work because I have some riffs that go up the neck and I can half ass play lead so using a capo made it too easy to get lost. I think it's a lot easier and works better to sing in your range. If it was an Eb band and I liked it I'd just tune down and maybe go up a gauge.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

If it's a fun bunch to play with, then go for it. It will be good for your brain and it won't take long to adapt.



2manyGuitars said:


> I don't exactly have "perfect pitch" but for example, when I hear a song in my head, it's in the exact key. Let's say I'm restringing a guitar and don't have a tuner around. I just pick a song, "play" it in my head, and tune to that.
> 
> If that song is being played a half-step down, it sounds _really_ wrong to me. Like "make my eye twitch" wrong. Now picture that for a 45 song set.
> 
> No thanks.


Don't come to any of my gigs - pretty much everything will sound wrong.😁 I have a baritone voice so about 3/4 of the tunes I do are in a different key from the original - or in the case of Neil Young, I just sing an octave lower.


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## Dru Edwards (9 mo ago)

All my electrics are turned to standard but I've played before in a band where we did a couple of songs 1/2 step down. No biggie. Just need to make sure the setlist is setup so that you're not tuning or swapping guitars after nearly every song.

Almost all of my acoustics are tuned 1/2 step down though because it's easier on my vocals. I also find that some acoustics sound better 1/2 step down with a little more deep end to them.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

2manyGuitars said:


> I get the reasoning and as a mediocre singer, believe me, I wish I could do it. But the human brain is a funny thing and mine is wired differently when it comes to pitch.
> 
> Picture watching Star Wars and instead of James Earl Jones voicing Darth Vader, it's Morgan Freeman. What's the big deal? They're both brilliant, dramatic actors with articulate voices. But it's just "wrong" and I can't tell my brain otherwise.
> 
> And as with many things in this world, your mileage may vary.


How do you feel about songs that are tuned down on the original recording? And what do you do if you want to play one?


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

My opinion is unless you are in a tribute band you need to make a song your own. It should be recognizable and pay tribute to the original but the arrangement, including the key, should be yours. Our band often changes the key, rearranges the verses and chorus to suit us. Usually not huge changes, just enough to make the song ours. Even the original bands do this when playing live.


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## Hammerhands (Dec 19, 2016)

How about running everything, and your IEMs, through a pitch shifter, a Digitech Whammy or a Virtual Jeff.

@2manyGuitars
How do you feel about [mostly 60's] songs that were recorded out of tune? If you hear a song in the wrong key, are you afraid it will stick in your mind in that wrong key?

I knew a pianist who had feelings about keys, one was blue, another was eeh.

The "Psycho" chord works best with the high-note on the 11th fret, it's more "Psycho" and is less so on other frets.

----11----
----10----
-----9----
-----8----
-----------
-----------


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Kerry Brown said:


> Even the original bands do this when playing live.


At least the good ones do.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Kerry Brown said:


> Our band often changes the key, rearranges the verses and chorus to suit us. Usually not huge changes, just enough to make the song ours. Even the original bands do this when playing live.


Not really.

I can't think of a concert I've ever seen in my life where a band rearranged the verses and choruses. That would be strange and I've seen The Grateful Dead multiple times.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Kerry Brown said:


> My opinion is unless you are in a tribute band you need to make a song your own. It should be recognizable and pay tribute to the original but the arrangement, including the key, should be yours. Our band often changes the key, rearranges the verses and chorus to suit us. Usually not huge changes, just enough to make the song ours. Even the original bands do this when playing live.


See, I like this, but every band I've been in so far (1 exception, with a female singer) just wants to parrot the original, I can't think of when we've called for more than a half step, to put in line with a bunch of other songs in a set. I've played on stage with basses tuned 1 E 1 Eb, I have also just twisted tuners between songs, both for that and to go back and forth to drop D. I'm quick at it, I'm on my pedal tuner all the time anyways as a mute and quick check between songs. To me, it's a non issue in the moment, I can be ready either way in 20 seconds. I haven't needed to change guages (on bass) to go long term to Eb. On guitar, I might have gone up 1, but not changing was always playable.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Also, if you need to play along with the original in a different key, there are some great apps for that - I use The Amazing Slow Downer. Works with pretty much any major streaming service and anything you have downloaded.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I’m in the “play it like the original” camp. Just a personal preference. When it’s MY song I’ll rearrange as I please but when it’s someone e else’s, it somehow feels wrong, disrespectful to change it. My only exception to this rule is when the arrangement is particularly confusing, I may simplify it so we don’t fuck it up every time.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Just tune to E flat. Many bands do this as standard, in some cases to help the singer, in other caes because they like it.

Then there are the bands that tune to D to save the singer.

It ain't rocket surgery.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Mark Brown said:


> Now I want a dub over of Morgan Freeman as Vader and my life will not be complete until it happens.


That would be effing hysterical.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Rollin Hand said:


> That would be effing hysterical.


RIGHT???

I cannot help picture the scene from Empire Strikes back, on the bridge in Cloud City and instead of the whole ominous Vader, we are treated to a kindly Morgan Freeman monologue.

"Well Luke, you know, there were some troubled times back in the days of the Old Republic and things were complicated, Life is a complicated thing. I know this might be hard for you, and I know you might not want to believe it, but you know... I am your father" or something to that effect with that kindly Morgan Freeman voice and all. Things would have been a whole lot different in the Empire.


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

Weird how everyone in the band is tuned down a ½ step yet patrons keep coming to our gigs.

The audience doesn’t care. Doesn’t know the difference. What is a capo to 99% of your audience? They have no idea.

We capo up as needed for songs with harmonica. Heck we do our own version on Zombie, capo’d on the 7th fret. So we can sing it. It’s earned us lots of applause. Even a standing ovation. The audience has no cares.

We’re just awful and disrespectful as we are a cover band. We play all covers on acoustics. Even songs that were never done on acoustics. We take originals and re-key them to suit our vocal ranges. I make up my own solos, even in songs that never had a solo. We add often add an extra chorus here and there. Imagine covering songs that never had a mandolin, yet we added one? Terrible that the mandolin was also tuned down a half step.

Could a woke culture cancel me for doing my own thing? Expressing myself as I choose, musically?

Pick a song. Any song. Give it your best, whatever you do. Rearrange it. Change the key. Add different instruments. Play it with conviction. The audience will appreciate it. There are no rules. Do whatever you want. Just give it your best.

I take no issues with e-flat tuning.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Lighten up Francis.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I was expecting a talking mule.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

keithb7 said:


> Weird how everyone in the band is tuned down a ½ step yet patrons keep coming to our gigs.
> 
> The audience doesn’t care. Doesn’t know the difference. What is a capo to 99% of your audience? They have no idea.
> 
> ...


What are you talking about?

Do whatever you want. No one is saying otherwise.


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## hfisher3380 (Mar 5, 2006)

2manyGuitars said:


> I don't exactly have "perfect pitch" but for example, when I hear a song in my head, it's in the exact key. Let's say I'm restringing a guitar and don't have a tuner around. I just pick a song, "play" it in my head, and tune to that.
> 
> If that song is being played a half-step down, it sounds _really_ wrong to me. Like "make my eye twitch" wrong. Now picture that for a 45 song set.
> 
> No thanks.


Actually, it sounds as if you probably DO have perfect pitch.


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## hfisher3380 (Mar 5, 2006)

Unless you have perfect pitch, what’s the difference really. Some songs may sound a bit different if not played in the exact original key, but there are plenty of bands that tune down. This is so common that personally, I just have half of my guitars tuned and set up to E and half to Eflat. My current band has a female singer so we tune to E - which means the songs we play by bands that tune to E flat are a half-step sharp - helps her.


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## MetalTele79 (Jul 20, 2020)

A Digitech Drop would let you keep your guitar in E and hit a lower tuning with a quick stomp.


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## Grab n Go (May 1, 2013)

hfisher3380 said:


> Actually, it sounds as if you probably DO have perfect pitch.


It's also possible to have good relative pitch and pitch memory. Someone with perfect pitch doesn't have to recall a song for a reference pitch. They know the notes instantly, as easily as we see colours.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

MetalTele79 said:


> A Digitech Drop would let you keep your guitar in E and hit a lower tuning with a quick stomp.


This. I own a Digitech Whammy DT which is this combined with a Whammy pedal in one housing and it does a great job. Theres a SLIGHT alteration in tone/volume, but the convenience more than makes up for it. Theyre not cheap, though, so I'd ask myself if it was worth it in order to play with these individuals or, atleast, if there was some use for it in your playing/recording outside of this.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

hfisher3380 said:


> Actually, it sounds as if you probably DO have perfect pitch.


Not really, in that if you play me a note, I don’t know that I’d be able to tell you what it is.
Likewise, if you said “sing a G”, I would first have to think of a “G song”, play it in my head, then sing the note. I can do that for certain keys but if you asked me to sing a Bb for example, I’m not sure I could.


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## Paul M (Mar 27, 2015)

2manyGuitars said:


> Not really, in that if you play me a note, I don’t know that I’d be able to tell you what it is.
> Likewise, if you said “sing a G”, I would first have to think of a “G song”, play it in my head, then sing the note. I can do that for certain keys but if you asked me to sing a Bb for example, I’m not sure I could.


Sing a G in your head, then up a minor 3rd out loud.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

If you don't like E♭, there's always D*♯* .


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## Relic (Mar 19, 2011)

Mooh said:


> One of those guitars happens to *seem* to like being tuned down too, it sounds even better I mean.


I have one guitar I keep tuned to D (a whole step down). It's a twelve-string acoustic and I originally tuned it down in an attempt to tame or mitigate tuning issues on the G strings (which are probably nut slot-related). Anyway it sounds so good a whole step down that I've left it that way ever since (and it does help the G tuning issues so I have yet to bring it in for work on that.)

When I'm recording I either use the appropriate chord shapes or put a capo on the 2nd fret.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I have one acoustic song that I like but had to tune down a whole step to get it into Gm for my voice because I wanted to keep the open chord shapes and walk downs from when the song was in Am standard. Couldn’t figure out alternate chord shapes or capo position to get it working properly Gm standard. Pisses me off though because can’t really tune down for just one song and even if I did the tuning would wander for awhile until settled in. Also, one of those drop box pedal things ain’t gonna work with an acoustic guitar I don’t think.


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## hfisher3380 (Mar 5, 2006)

2manyGuitars said:


> Not really, in that if you play me a note, I don’t know that I’d be able to tell you what it is.
> Likewise, if you said “sing a G”, I would first have to think of a “G song”, play it in my head, then sing the note. I can do that for certain keys but if you asked me to sing a Bb for example, I’m not sure I could.


I haven't really studied this in-depth but if you can just sing a G by thinking of a G song without any actual cue, to me it sounds as if you either have perfect pitch or could be easily "trained" to have it.

For me, if someone says sing ANY note without a reference, I'm just totally guessing.


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## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

RJP110 said:


> Ummm, take the 30 seconds to tune to Eb. Jam the sh&t out of awesome songs. Then inversely retune up to E standard. Boom. Nailed it.


Not so simple if you play a strat with the trem floating…


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

hfisher3380 said:


> I haven't really studied this in-depth but if you can just sing a G by thinking of a G song without any actual cue, to me it sounds as if you either have perfect pitch or could be easily "trained" to have it.
> 
> For me, if someone says sing ANY note without a reference, I'm just totally guessing.


For people with "REAL" perfect pitch, they can sing the notes as fast as you can say them or name them as fast as you can play them.
YouTuber Rick Beato's kid was doing perfect pitch videos as early as 5 years old and Rick said he was actually doing it at 3. You can mash 12 keys simultaneously on a piano and he will sing and name every note almost instantly.

He has a few videos, but this one is short and sweet...


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Merlin said:


> Not so simple if you play a strat with the trem floating…


Laughs in "Bigsby".


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## RJP110 (Sep 15, 2020)

Merlin said:


> Not so simple if you play a strat with the trem floating…


Sounds like a good justification to have a Les Paul or Tele in the stable then


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

I know a lot of bands/acoustic duos/solo etc that tune down to Eb. The crowd has no idea. It _is_ easier to sing. 

I have always liked to idea of "original key" and that includes how the guitar/bass are tuned. But, that's personal. Then again, finding a guy my age still capable of singing in A?? Not easy!


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