# Shooter on the loose in Ottawa



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Shooter still on loose after uniformed soldier shot at #Ottawa's War Memorial, across road from Parliament. MP's being taken out of offices.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

Very disturbing .... this i think has to do with the Government joining the fight against Isis... now we have a bulls-eye on our backs....


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Some reports he's been shot & killed.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

We'll certainly learn more later today, but a construction worker, who was working on the hill, described the shooter as carrying a shotgun. I obviously wouldn't want to be shot with any of them, but at least it appears to be something you'd buy at Canadian Tire or Wal-Mart, and not an automatic or semi-automatic weapon.

This may be one of the few times I'm glad our office moved to Gatineau, across the river, and is not 3 blocks from the Hill. My wife's new office IS 3 blocks from the Hill, though, and they have been advised to remain in the building.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Yikes. Reports now that there is more than 1 shooter.


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

Rick31797 said:


> Very disturbing .... this i think has to do with the Government joining the fight against Isis... now we have a bulls-eye on our backs....


No, I think it has more to do with us being a western society, which in ISIS' eyes, is populated by heretics who need to be exterminated.


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## Intrepid (Oct 9, 2008)

This is all just terrible news. I hope the soldier will survive his wounds.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm far past my angry young man stage, but when religious nut cases start picking fights with us over here, I have a very short fuse.

Sadly I think many of these homegrown A-holes are just looking for attention or have mental health issues (probably both).

Putting their faces and names all over the papers and internet is giving them exaactly what they seek.

I'd be happier to have them referred to as "the gunman" or some other ambiguous title.

In other words, to me, it's more important to remember the name of the victim, not the killer.


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## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

WCGill said:


> No, I think it has more to do with us being a western society, which in ISIS' eyes, is populated by heretics who need to be exterminated.



Actually it's a little of both.
ISIS and groups like them have always hated anyone not Muslim. Actually they hate muslims too if they don't follow the exact same type of beliefs as them. (See Suni vs Shiite vs Shia)
The crux of the Ottawa shooting is that ISIS issued an Order to all muslims everywhere to randomly kill any member of Canadian/American/British society. So not just Military or cops, etc, _*anyone.*_ So the suspect in Ottawa will most likely be Muslim and most likely will be reciting slogans he learned on the internet. 

The group known as ISIS, IS, or Muslim brotherhood is doing the same thing as POL POT did in Cambodia. 
They've decided that society was best in the 12th century and are using modern weapons and media to enforce 12th Century sharia law.

Personally I think It's going to get much much worse before it stabilizes over there. 
It may take a full on invasion type operation to suppress the group, Even then, as with the NAZI movement it'll never truly go away

There's only one way to kill an Ideal, and they explain it quite clearly in the Old Testament, even then it doesn't go away fully. There's always something remaining.


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## fredyfreeloader (Dec 11, 2010)

Add this to the incident in Quebec where two CAF servicemen were run down by a suspected radicalized individual, who was later shot and killed by police and you have the makings of panic in the public. Just what terrorists want, everyone running around afraid that maybe the people down the street are armed and dangerous terrorists. We are a part of the "Global Village", incidents such as this can and will happen, there are terrorists in Canada. Let's try and keep a cool head and not go looking around every corner for the next bad guy or girl and let's leave the gun(s) in the closet for now.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

any way you look at it...any of you in Ottawa...stay safe guys...reports are saying two guys still on the run...


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

The Soldiers standing on guard at the memorial of the unknown soldier... have fake guns... one of the soldiers was shot 4 times... The Parliament buildings are open and free..for whoever wants to enter..
there are two unarmed guards..at the doorway...to screen people... doesn't do much good when something like this happens... of course all will change now ..


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Looking out my window at work, I see that all the bridges from Ottawa into Gatineau are blocked by police, who are doing stop-checks on all vehicles.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

I keep having this dream, of having the supernatural powers, to pick up all the Terrorists around the world, and dropping them on an Island in the middle of an Ocean..I know is silly but it gives me great comfort.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Rick31797 said:


> I keep having this dream, of having the supernatural powers, to pick up all the Terrorists around the world, and dropping them in the middle of an Ocean..I know is silly but it gives me great comfort.


Fixed that.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Rick31797 said:


> I keep having this dream, of having the supernatural powers, to pick up all the Terrorists around the world, and dropping them on an Island in the middle of an Ocean..I know is silly but it gives me great comfort.



I have the same dream minus the island.

- - - Updated - - -

The leafs Senators game may be cancelled tonight.
http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Mike-Augello/Leafs---Senators-Game-May-Be-Cancelled-Due-To-Parliament-Hill-Shooting/120/63296

I know its just a hockey game but you just gotta hate that even if these terrorists don't always accomplish every mission to spec they always disrupt our daily lives and hold us in fear.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2014)

[video=youtube;XrGqoISd-do]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrGqoISd-do&amp;sc_ref=l.facebook.com[/video]


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

Rick31797 said:


> Very disturbing .... this i think has to do with the Government joining the fight against Isis... now we have a bulls-eye on our backs....


I hope that this is merely an anecdotal stating-of-the-obvious rather than a criticism of the government's decision to join the fight against ISIS. Almost incredible if it's the latter!

If you feel strongly that way, why not encourage Justin Trudeau to step out and talk with the shooters to better understand their point of view, or provide soup to others who are doing the essential work of fighting the shooters - and ISIS - in the conditions ISIS has created?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> I have the same dream minus the island.



What if they were dropped from a very great height?



> The leafs Senators game may be cancelled tonight.
> http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Mike...led-Due-To-Parliament-Hill-Shooting/120/63296


My wife and son were supposed to go to a play at the National Arts Center tonight...right across the street from the War Memorial. I haven't heard yet, but my guess is that's being scratched. I imagine the RCMP have the entire area cordoned off for the post-event investigation.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

Funny things about everything that is going on, government just cut 2.7 billion from the military budget. What most people don't know is that prior to this year the military spent approximately %70 of their budget on salary. Can't take peoples pay away, so maintenance of equipment, procurement ect all suffer. The rest of the world laughs at us, there are some third world countries that spend more of their GDP maintaining a military then we do. Then something like this happens and the public expects the military to do more but still want lower taxes better health care, ect ect. We live in a world where everyone wants everything but don't wanna work or pay for any of it. Great the military has the sympathy of the public for a day or two when something bad happens, but then everyone just forgets about them. It's sad and this is my rant for the day!


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

Read into it anyway you want.. when we follow the USA into battle this is what can happen.. Canada is not as safe a place to live as it was yesterday, we are a very complacent country , meaning we are an easy target...Isis has made it clear we are a target..now the Government will be spending billions on upgrading the security...it is what it is, the door has been opened.





boyscout said:


> I hope that this is merely an anecdotal stating-of-the-obvious rather than a criticism of the government's decision to join the fight against ISIS. Almost incredible if it's the latter!
> 
> If you feel strongly that way, why not encourage Justin Trudeau to step out and talk with the shooters to better understand their point of view, or provide soup to others who are doing the essential work of fighting the shooters - and ISIS - in the conditions ISIS has created?


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

A soldier is dead but...

'Prime Minister Stephen Harper "is safe and has left Parliament Hill", his director of communications said via Twitter.'

I'm sure the entire country is happy to hear that news. I'm not suggesting I want any harm to come to Mr. Harper, I just think it's mildly amusing that his personal safety would be a concern to anyone given the horrible situation.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm comfortable with reducing the money we spend on military costs.

I respect and admire anyone who puts his or her life in jeopardy to protect or serve me. I just don't feel the need to have more resources applied to defense.

Fighting terrorism isn't going to be easier if we have bigger and stronger armed forces.

These bozos don't stand up and fight face to face (a lot like many people on the net).

We have to play dirty if we're to gain ground with them.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

hardasmum said:


> A soldier is dead but...
> 
> 'Prime Minister Stephen Harper "is safe and has left Parliament Hill", his director of communications said via Twitter.'
> 
> I'm sure the entire country is happy to hear that news. I'm not suggesting I want any harm to come to Mr. Harper, I just think it's mildly amusing that his personal safety would be a concern to anyone given the horrible situation.


Well, you can imagine that anything untoward that happens to the leader of just about any nation, whether they are loved or not, would have an impact on the stock market, the value of the currency, etc. So it's not so much that the tweet is intended to allay the deepest fears of the average person, but more to tell the financial sector that things have not descended into chaos.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Rick31797 said:


> Read into it anyway you want.. when we follow the USA into battle this is what can happen.. Canada is not as safe a place to live as it was yesterday, we are a very complacent country , meaning we are an easy target...Isis has made it clear we are a target..now the Government will be spending billions on upgrading the security...it is what it is, the door has been opened.


It hasn't yet been determined if this is tied to any terrorist organization or if these are just lone wolf attacks but ISIS\Taliban, etc have definitely drawn lines in the sand and your either on one side or the other. Unless you are radical Islam your a target. We could try to stay out of it but they'd come for us eventually.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

mhammer said:


> hardasmum said:
> 
> 
> > A soldier is dead but...
> ...


That makes sense. I hadn't thought of that angle.


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

It seems to me that he was a wannabe ISIS fighter who was blocked from joining them directly when he was stopped from traveling to the Middle East by having his passport confiscated. His hair-brained plan looks to me to be to cause a diversion by the War Memorial shooting, then run into the Parliament Building to kill parliamentarians and probably the Prime Minister.

Fortunately, he was an idiot who had no real plan once he got into the Parliament Building. He had no sophisticated weapons or intelligent forethought. I think he was an ideological nut case. Lets hope he isn't an inspiration for other misguided ideologists with a demented cause and a death wish.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

bluzfish said:


> It seems to me that he was a wannabe ISIS fighter who was blocked from joining them directly when he was stopped from traveling to the Middle East by having his passport confiscated. His hair-brained plan looks to me to be to cause a diversion by the War Memorial shooting, then run into the Parliament Building to kill parliamentarians and probably the Prime Minister.
> 
> Fortunately, he was an idiot who had no real plan once he got into the Parliament Building. He had no sophisticated weapons or intelligent forethought. I think he was an ideological nut case. Lets hope he isn't an inspiration for other misguided ideologists with a demented cause and a death wish.


I didn't realize they released details on the shooter's identity. Where can I find this information?


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## bluzfish (Mar 12, 2011)

Sorry, I meant to present my hypothesis as a best guess as to what happened, not fact.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

bluzfish said:


> Sorry, I meant to present my hypothesis as a best guess as to what happened, not fact.


Okay! I see. I misunderstood your post as new info.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

hardasmum said:


> I didn't realize they released details on the shooter's identity. Where can I find this information?


That sounds like a description of the guy who ran down the two soldiers yesterday.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

In the case of the hit and run tragedy in St. Jean-sur-Richelieu on Monday, unless some other revelations come out, I think we're dealing with a lone wolf spinning some narrative in his own mind in which running over a couple of soldiers was some sort "blow against the empire". No explosives, no weapons procurement, no synchronized watches, no extensive network required; just driving your car into a couple of people.

At present (and I can't emphasize that enough, because details are sketchy), we think that there are potentially two perpetrators, one of which is now dead (I didn't know the Sergeant-at-arms carried a sidearm, but then maybe that's where the name comes from), although it is sensible to keep an open mind about whether there may have been more involved. The most information we have about the weaponry comes from a construction worker on the Hill who saw a shooter from a close distance and said that individual was wielding a shotgun. We don't know if that person had any other smaller arms, or how much ammunition he may have had, but we have heard nothing about him wielding anything _more_ destructive than a shotgun. I.E., he wasn't described as having an AK47 on his back and another automatic weapon in his hands.

Assuming this _was_ all the guy was packing, any initiative launched with stuff you can buy from any Canadian Tire or Wal-Mart does not reflect an action that required extensive planning, coordination, or outside help. That there was more than one perp is suggestive of something more than a lone wolf, but then Columbine was carried out by two kids without any outside help, and James Roszko had a couple of buddies help him (who probably didn't think he would be murdering 4 Mounties), without there being any particular broad conspiracy. It IS possible for a couple of guys to whip up their own little vendetta, and egg each other on, without necessarily being reflective of something bigger. Of course, we don't know that this IS or ISN'T what happened; I'm just saying it is not outside the realm of possibility.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2014)

Always a little hard to be so far away from home, more so when stuff like this is happening. Stay safe everyone; keep living your full and awesome lives.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

mhammer said:


> In the case of the hit and run tragedy in St. Jean-sur-Richelieu on Monday, unless some other revelations come out, I think we're dealing with a lone wolf spinning some narrative in his own mind in which running over a couple of soldiers was some sort "blow against the empire". No explosives, no weapons procurement, no synchronized watches, no extensive network required; just driving your car into a couple of people.
> 
> At present (and I can't emphasize that enough, because details are sketchy), we think that there are potentially two perpetrators, one of which is now dead (I didn't know the Sergeant-at-arms carried a sidearm, but then maybe that's where the name comes from), although it is sensible to keep an open mind about whether there may have been more involved. The most information we have about the weaponry comes from a construction worker on the Hill who saw a shooter from a close distance and said that individual was wielding a shotgun. We don't know if that person had any other smaller arms, or how much ammunition he may have had, but we have heard nothing about him wielding anything _more_ destructive than a shotgun. I.E., he wasn't described as having an AK47 on his back and another automatic weapon in his hands.
> 
> Assuming this _was_ all the guy was packing, any initiative launched with stuff you can buy from any Canadian Tire or Wal-Mart does not reflect an action that required extensive planning, coordination, or outside help. That there was more than one perp is suggestive of something more than a lone wolf, but then Columbine was carried out by two kids without any outside help, and James Roszko had a couple of buddies help him (who probably didn't think he would be murdering 4 Mounties), without there being any particular broad conspiracy. It IS possible for a couple of guys to whip up their own little vendetta, and egg each other on, without necessarily being reflective of something bigger. Of course, we don't know that this IS or ISN'T what happened; I'm just saying it is not outside the realm of possibility.


This is pretty much what I'm thinking on this, barring further, more specific detail. It would seem that anyone with severe mental issues or those on the fringe simply found a flag to fly with all this ISIS nonsense. Doesn't mean they were tied into the network, they were just easily "triggered". If not ISIS then something else may have set them off. Crazy is as crazy does. My sympathies go out to any affected by this crap.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Rick31797 said:


> I keep having this dream, of having the supernatural powers, to pick up all the Terrorists around the world, and dropping them in the middle of a shark infested Ocean..I know is silly but it gives me great comfort.


Fixed it some more.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)




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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Gunman in Ottawa attack identified as Michael Zehaf-Bibeau

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada...-identified-as-michael-zehaf-bibeau-1.2065443


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## doriangrey (Mar 29, 2011)

this is sick and disturbing:

"It looked like the honour guard was trying to reach for the barrel of the gun. The honour guard dropped to the ground and the shooter kind of raised his arms in triumph holding the rifle."


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Hamstrung said:


> This is pretty much what I'm thinking on this, barring further, more specific detail. It would seem that anyone with severe mental issues or those on the fringe simply found a flag to fly with all this ISIS nonsense. Doesn't mean they were tied into the network, they were just easily "triggered". If not ISIS then something else may have set them off. Crazy is as crazy does. My sympathies go out to any affected by this crap.


Nobody has to be nuts. All they have to do is feel justified in doing something violent. As ever, I refer people to the case of Valery Fabricant, the Concordia engineering prof who blamed his colleagues for not getting tenure, and murdered 4 of them.

What is both intriguing and worrying, all at once, is that the media and authorities have responded as if it WAS a "terrorist attack". And even if tomorrow we learn the shooter was psychotic, acted alone, and has no discernible connection to any radical group, it will be remembered by the public as if it was a terror attack, and change public attitudes because of that. Moreover, because of the sheer extent of coverage, and constant repetition, we may also come to overestimate the extent of threat.

I'm not saying it's nothing, but there is a risk that we make it, or that parties with vested interest, turn it into more than it is.


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## doriangrey (Mar 29, 2011)

mhammer said:


> What is both intriguing and worrying, all at once, is that the media and authorities have responded as if it WAS a "terrorist attack". And even if tomorrow we learn the shooter was psychotic, acted alone, and has no discernible connection to any radical group, it will be remembered by the public as if it was a terror attack, and change public attitudes because of that. Moreover, because of the sheer extent of coverage, and constant repetition, we may also come to overestimate the extent of threat.
> 
> I'm not saying it's nothing, but there is a risk that we make it, or that parties with vested interest, turn it into more than it is.


seriously?


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> It hasn't yet been determined if this is tied to any terrorist organization or if these are just lone wolf attacks but ISIS\Taliban, etc have definitely drawn lines in the sand and your either on one side or the other. *Unless you are radical Islam you're a target.* *We could try to stay out of it but they'd come for us eventually*.


This, a thousand times this! I'd argue that they're already here. Sorry but I can't be politically correct when it comes to extremist religions.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

When we are overseas supporting the USA and killing them.. Isis... it makes there cause to terrorize us, that much stronger.. its common sense..




davetcan said:


> This, a thousand times this! I'd argue that they're already here. Sorry but I can't be politically correct when it comes to extremist religions.


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## doriangrey (Mar 29, 2011)

photo tweeted from an ISIS account:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...r-had-criminal-record-in-quebec-b-c-1.2809562


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

doriangrey said:


> seriously?


Absolutely.

Incidentally, CBC is reporting that the shooter has a criminal record in Quebec and BC. Now, part of that criminal record includes drug possession, and I'm sure many here would argue vigorously that there are many drug possessions charges they would consider to be part of an illegitimate and ineffective war on drugs. So I'll ignore that part. Less worthy of being ignored is his being charged with uttering threats and robbery. The uttering threats points to an unstable individual. Would any of you utter criminal threats against someone if you had even the slightest shred of self-doubt? My money is on this ending up as another Fabricant who blames others for the misfortunes he created for himself. I might note that an even more notorious shooter - he of the Montreal massacre - had the same attitude, except in his case, he viewed women as the party that ruined his life.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

- - - Updated - - -

If you ignore them, and what they're doing to innocent people, they will still come once they're strong enough. Hopefully not in my lifetime.



Rick31797 said:


> When we are overseas supporting the USA and killing them.. Isis... it makes there cause to terrorize us, that much stronger.. its common sense..


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## doriangrey (Mar 29, 2011)

mhammer said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Incidentally, CBC is reporting that the shooter has a criminal record in Quebec and BC. Now, part of that criminal record includes drug possession, and I'm sure many here would argue vigorously that there are many drug possessions charges they would consider to be part of an illegitimate and ineffective war on drugs. So I'll ignore that part. Less worthy of being ignored is his being charged with uttering threats and robbery. The uttering threats points to an unstable individual. Would any of you utter criminal threats against someone if you had even the slightest shred of self-doubt? My money is on this ending up as another Fabricant who blames others for the misfortunes he created for himself. I might note that an even more notorious shooter - he of the Montreal massacre - had the same attitude, except in his case, he viewed women as the party that ruined his life.



I agree that he was obviously unstable, as I imagine anyone would have to be if they were going to support a barbaric terrorist group...but I think it would be naive to believe that he acted without any connection to any radical group, which I think is evident in the tweet from the ISIS account


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## Stratin2traynor (Sep 27, 2006)

I don't disagree with everything you said. Bottom line is we have very few facts beside the obvious: a man shot a soldier in Ottawa, he went into the parliament building where he was eventually shot by police (or retired police), the shooter/deceased may have recently converted to Islam, the shooter/deceased has a criminal history. 

The rest is just opinion. 

Did he act alone? Who knows at this point. Was this part of a larger plot? Who knows. Was he influenced by ISIS propaganda? Who knows. Is he a terrorist? Maybe, maybe not. 

Is he crazy? Absolutely




mhammer said:


> Nobody has to be nuts. All they have to do is feel justified in doing something violent. As ever, I refer people to the case of Valery Fabricant, the Concordia engineering prof who blamed his colleagues for not getting tenure, and murdered 4 of them.
> 
> What is both intriguing and worrying, all at once, is that the media and authorities have responded as if it WAS a "terrorist attack". And even if tomorrow we learn the shooter was psychotic, acted alone, and has no discernible connection to any radical group, it will be remembered by the public as if it was a terror attack, and change public attitudes because of that. Moreover, because of the sheer extent of coverage, and constant repetition, we may also come to overestimate the extent of threat.
> 
> I'm not saying it's nothing, but there is a risk that we make it, or that parties with vested interest, turn it into more than it is.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Incidentally, since the topic of ISIS was raised, I hasten to remind people that they have butchered plenty of "radical Muslims"; indeed, likely more than westerners, and in ways every bit as appalling as the worst instances that have been brought to our attention. Keep in mind they view the "wrong kind" of Muslim, no matter how fundamentalist and observant that person is, as essentially an apostate, and undeserving of mercy of any kind. This is precisely why they can't last: they are pissing off an awful lot of locals who, if they only had the weapons and military capacity, would gladly wipe out ISIS, and probably a whole lot of innocent Sunnis as well.

As for the picture, I have no idea who has it or how they came to have it.

I remind people of the black balaclava crowd that would join in G8 and G20 demonstrations, and unleash random carnage on plate glass windows and innocent businesses. And regrettably I also have to remind people of those who would dash into department stores after windows were broken, and steal TVs and other costly items, during "race riots", under the premise that it was a "political act". People who think they have a political justification for their actions are capable of a great many antisocial acts, some mere theft, but others including murder and genocide.

Self-doubt is what keeps us civilized. Always make sure you have some in your back pocket when you leave the house.

Probably as good a time as any for this tune....
[video=youtube;BfHLYIms97A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfHLYIms97A[/video]


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Dave, I saw that pic on the news but they never said if it's from today, do we know?

The rifle is easy to identify as a lever action Winchester (or copy), likely a .30-.30 (though they come in a dozen or more calibers from .22 up to .454 at least) of which there are hundreds of thousands in the country, in the hands of deer hunters and cowboy action shooters. Not what one would think of for a modern terrorist, given the design dates to the 1870's or so.


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## DrumBob (Aug 17, 2014)

Of course, we Americans are concerned and sympathetic for you guys up there. The shooter was killed, but do they know why he went on that rampage? The 11:00 news is coming on soon, so I hope to learn more.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

One of the more interesting tidbits that came on the early news at 6AM (and this may be fleshed out a little more as the day goes on) is that his mother works for the Immigration and Refugee Board. I see, looking through the government electronic directory, that she is a "deputy chairperson", with an office about 2-3 blocks from where this all took place. They also noted this morning, that the fellow's father had gone to Libya to "fight with" rebels during the Arab Spring (as a number of Canadian soldiers did, albeit from a much higher altitude).

The government's record in terms of taking in those horribly affected by the various conflicts in the middle east has been, shall we say, unimpressive (and some folks would say downright obstructive). I am speculating wildly here, but we see a young man who is already prone to rash actions, with a familial connection that could easily have him in a lather about either what the government is doing, or perhaps what they are _not_ doing. Obviously not a cause to kill anyone, but not what I'd call terrorism, either.

A young man with a grudge and a gun, can do a lot of damage in a very short bit of time.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

So this shooter along with the other guy a few days ago that run over the soldier with a car...both had there passport seized so they could not go over and join up with ISIS to fight....

This seems backwards to me, why let him go and then prevent him from coming back in to do damage.. and while over there fighting, maybe he would get killed and we would be rid of this piece of trash...


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Um, that's not exactly how it works. First of all, it is tantamount to "rendering". Second, if someone poses an identified risk, you don't export the risk, you contain it. Let us say, for example, that we kick someone out who ends up assassinating, or being part of a team that kills, Syrian President Bashar Assad (and remember that, as scummy as ISIS is, they are also fighting Assad, albeit not to foster democracy). So now, what then happens to Canada's international relations if it can be shown that we "exported" the trigger finger (or bomb-wearer)? So, you just don't do that.

But perhaps more importantly, only the one fellow in the St. Jean sur Richelieu hit and run had his passport confiscated. I've heard nothing to that effect about yesterday's shooter. He was not on anyone's radar, as far as I know.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2014)

Rick31797 said:


> So this shooter along with the other guy a few days ago that run over the soldier with a car...both had there passport seized so they could not go over and join up with ISIS to fight....


That might not be completely true: https://twitter.com/Colinfreeze/status/525118107447468032 -- he's a G&M reporter. Though, of course, this is pretty good advice:


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I only heard bits and pieces of the news on the radio yesterday while travelling between meetings. Some of it was confusing...originally the reservist was said t have survived but it seems clear he didn't. Question: why was he there? Ive been to the monument, before but don't recall any military personel being posted there a la Buckingham Palace. Was he just a visitor there like anyone else?

Also, on the news they reported that there were other gunmen involved that have not been apprehended, is this correct, or just part of the usual story mixups that seem to get relayed when tragedies happen? I have googled some new sites, but all they mention is the isis converted shooter that was killed at the scene.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

The Mayor stated that having two Honour guards at the memorial of the unknown soldier is a new program, i am not sure when it started but family was there the end of July and there were honour guards at that time..

They thought there was 2 or 3 shooters, and this was false information... I think by looking at the time line from the memorial sight to the Parliament building , there was only 2 mins between the shooting which they thought was impossible ...so i think that's what started the rumour there was more then one shooter..






Diablo said:


> I only heard bits and pieces of the news on the radio yesterday while travelling between meetings. Some of it was confusing...originally the reservist was said t have survived but it seems clear he didn't. Question: why was he there? Ive been to the monument, before but don't recall any military personel being posted there a la Buckingham Palace. Was he just a visitor there like anyone else?
> 
> Also, on the news they reported that there were other gunmen involved that have not been apprehended, is this correct, or just part of the usual story mixups that seem to get relayed when tragedies happen? I have googled some new sites, but all they mention is the isis converted shooter that was killed at the scene.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

iaresee said:


> That might not be completely true: https://twitter.com/Colinfreeze/status/525118107447468032 -- he's a G&M reporter. Though, of course, this is pretty good advice:


^^^^^^So true. It reminds me of all the false reporting on 9/11. I have less and less respect for the media as time goes on. After all, they are doing their best to market themselves because they are all in competition with one another, meaning money (profit) plays a huge role if not the major one.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Honor guard has been in place for about 8 years following an incident with teenagers urinating on and defacing it.


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## doriangrey (Mar 29, 2011)

look at this image...emotional 

http://thechronicleherald.ca/editorial-cartoon/2014-10-23-editorial-cartoon


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There were also rumours of shots being fired near the Rideau centre, across from the Chateau Laurier, and that turned out to be false (bloody Twitter!). I suspect that this supplemented the initial confusion Rick noted about just how many shooters there were.

Ever since our office moved to the Quebec side of the river, I don't pass near the downtown core any more, so I'm a little out of the loop. But my sense is that there is not an "honour guard" at the War Memorial year-round. This may have been something particular to the lead-up period to Remembrance Day. 

I don't know if you remember, but several years back, some punk had a little too much beer passing through him and decided to relieve the pressure at the War Memorial, incensing many, and leading to criminal charges and a public humiliation. I suspect there was no ulterior motive, and the fellow was simply too pissed to recognize the gravity of what he was doing. But it wouldn't surprise me if this honour guard was something instituted partly in response to that incident, to try and maintain the dignity (and cleanliness) of the place in the weeks preceding Nov.11.

There is not really any place to park on Wellington Street in front of Parliament. Apparently, the shooter parked illegally on Elgin, near the War Memorial, most likely on the ample traffic islands there. We obviously can't know, but Cpl. Cirillo may have simply been a guy who symbolized something to the shooter, as he was on his way from Elgin to the Centre Block. That is, Parliament, and perhaps certain members thereof, may have been the principle target, and the War Memorial was simply on the way there. The fact that you have one guy standing there, in what is essentially a bare open space (with the obvious exception of the cenotaph itself), makes him a more obvious target than if it was filled with throngs of people.

Here is the view going up Elgin towards the cenotaph, with the NAC and Chateau Laurier on your right.








Go a little further up the street in front of the cenotaph.








Finally, with the cenotaph just out of frame on your right, you can see that it is a short hop over to Parliament Hill. Someone running at a fast clip could easily do it in a minute.


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## Guest (Oct 23, 2014)

[video=youtube;DKZbdAQHLTc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKZbdAQHLTc[/video]


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

There was a Globe and Mail reporter right in the Parliament building when the shooting was going on, he had a view of the hallway were the shooter was killed and seen the body... you cant get to much better then that for accurate reporting, he reported what he seen, and reported what he didn't see ..

As far as there is almost never more then one shooter.. that may be true after the fact... but nobody is going to assume there is just one shooter in the heat of the moment,....... that certainly could be a fatal mistake.. You need to assume the worse... and i didn't hear any media say that they confirmed there was more then one shooter, they reported the possibility that there may be,more ..... getting these reports from bystanders , and when bystanders see a terrible event like this unfold before there eyes, more times then , not they get it wrong.. 





Steadfastly said:


> ^^^^^^So true. It reminds me of all the false reporting on 9/11. I have less and less respect for the media as time goes on. After all, they are doing their best to market themselves because they are all in competition with one another, meaning money (profit) plays a huge role if not the major one.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

mhammer said:


> We obviously can't know, but Cpl. Cirillo may have simply been a guy who symbolized something to the shooter, as he was on his way from Elgin to the Centre Block. That is, Parliament, and perhaps certain members thereof, may have been the principle target, and the War Memorial was simply on the way there. The fact that you have one guy standing there, in what is essentially a bare open space (with the obvious exception of the cenotaph itself), makes him a more obvious target than if it was filled with throngs of people.


Ya, that most likely was the case.
He really missed his "objective" though in killing a reservist ie not someone likely to ever leave Canadian soil on some middle east mission.

has ISIS or anyone publicly recognized this event the way OBL did when 9/11 occurred?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Interesting. I'm sure Mr. Vickers has ambivalent feelings. On the one hand, I'm sure he is proud of being able to have done something to prevent what could have been an unthinkable tragedy for the country. On the other hand, I doubt that anyone who aims to serve, or has served, in a public safety capacity, takes any pleasure or pride whatsoever, in taking the life of another, no matter what the circumstances, or how heinous that other individual is.

I'm pleased that the members were so appreciative of the "little people" who work around them, and simply carry out their daily duties, without making a big deal of it, or expecting to be in front of cameras or mics.

Vickers is the darling of the press in Britain, and in Washington, today, going by the BBC and Washington Post sites.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Canada is very lucky the shooter was just a flake and not an actual "terrorist". It looks like he could strolled in and taken out most of the Canadian government had he been better organized/prepared and had the mind to do so.

Very unfortunate that this "learning experience" cost a young soldier his life. The price he paid was way too high


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## doriangrey (Mar 29, 2011)

surprised Mr. Vickers is back at work today


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

Just shows what a professional he is, spending 30 yrs with the RCMP , it seems when he is in a stress-full situation , he doesn't break a sweat he has complete control over his emotions. He never fired his weapon once , with the RCMP. 




doriangrey said:


> surprised Mr. Vickers is back at work today


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

Lincoln said:


> Canada is very lucky the shooter was just a flake and not an actual "terrorist". It looks like he could strolled in and taken out most of the Canadian government had he been better organized/prepared and had the mind to do so.
> 
> Very unfortunate that this "learning experience" cost a young soldier his life. The price he paid was way too high


Well said. Too many people are looking at this as an ISIS attack on Canada which I don't think is accurate at all.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Rick31797 said:


> Just shows what a professional he is, spending 30 yrs with the RCMP , it seems when he is in a stress-full situation , he doesn't break a sweat he has complete control over his emotions. He never fired his weapon once , with the RCMP.


Damn right.

If you asked him, I'm sure he would say something like "I did what anyone would have done in my position".

Without his quick and decisive actions, it could have been much worse.

- - - Updated - - -



Lincoln said:


> Canada is very lucky the shooter was just a flake and not an actual "terrorist". It looks like he could strolled in and taken out most of the Canadian government had he been better organized/prepared and had the mind to do so.
> 
> Very unfortunate that this "learning experience" cost a young soldier his life. The price he paid was way too high


True enough. He was only a few meters away. Had he been packing an AK or other assault weapon it could have been a complete slaughter.

And yes, very sad to lose one brave soldier. His life is worth many times that of the A-hole who did this.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

doriangrey said:


> surprised Mr. Vickers is back at work today


Sometimes work is very therapeutic in the aftermath of trauma.

Don't know if you ever saw it, but the Oscar-winning 9-hour Holocaust documentary _Shoah_ has a segment where the filmmaker is talking with a barber in 1980's Jerusalem. The barber was obliged to work in one of the major concentration camps, Auschwitz or Dachau, I forget which. His "job" was to cut the hair of fellow Jews who came in off the trains, immediately prior to them being gassed. It was all part of the overall ruse leading up to the gas chambers being some sort of shower/hygiene thing to prevent lice from breaking out in the camp. The hair-trim made it all seem legit, and reduced the suspicion and risk of any of the folks just off the train resisting. To stay alive, he and his coworkers were expected to process a lot of heads quickly. So while it was a haircut_ on paper_, it was really a quick bit of wholesale hair-chopping done to people who were likely thinking "I guess it can always grow back".

Everyone had to strip down before coming in for their "trim", and it was the same barbers for men and women. One day he has his best friend's wife as "client". For starters, the two are shamed by the fact that he has to see her naked, and of course, neither can get out of it. But what's worse, is that he has to pretend he's giving her a haircut, when he knows she will be killed within the next 5-10 minutes, can not let on, and has to muster small-talk during the trim.

While he tells this story to the interviewer, he is cutting the hair of an_ actual _customer. He stops, unable to bear the weight of such horrific and torturing memories. He waves to the interviewer to stop the camera rolling, indicating that he can't go on, but the interviewer keeps saying that he has to tell what happened. The fellow retreats, leaving the customer in the chair with the sheet up to his neck, and holds his hand up to his mouth, choking back the tears and agony. The interviewer lets the camera roll. After about 5 minutes of dead silence, and the barber looking off, he comes back to the chair, and begins to snip away at the customer's hair. After about 2 minutes of quietly snipping (looking for all the world like he might say "D'ja see the game last night?" at any moment), and getting lost in the craft of making the customer look good, he settles down, begins to talk again, and finishes telling the story. One of the most moving things you'll ever see on film, done/shown in one long continuous take.

Like I say, often people NEED their job to detract/distract/defuse whatever trauma may exist in their lives. I'm pretty sure Vickers appreciated having job-stuff to do today.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Lincoln said:


> Canada is very lucky the shooter was just a flake and not an actual "terrorist". It looks like he could strolled in and taken out most of the Canadian government had he been better organized/prepared and had the mind to do so.
> 
> Very unfortunate that this "learning experience" cost a young soldier his life. The price he paid was way too high


Explain.
Why would we think hes not a terrorist?
Because he acted alone?

I kind of think of him as a copycat terrorist (Edit: I guess "Lone wolf" is the term being used now). Someone who perhaps did not have an organized "official mission", but thinks he has a pretty good idea of the sort of thing his "allies" would approve of, and took matters in his own hands.

indeed, the face / M.O. of terrorism is changing.
"


> Members of ISIS forums are encouraging “lone wolf” bomb attacks in some of America’s most high-profile tourist locations: New York, Las Vegas and Texas.
> A post in an ISIS message board, created three weeks ago and resurfaced in the last 24 hours with renewed urgency, includes a comprehensive guide to building pipe bombs using easily obtained materials like match heads, sugar and Christmas lights. Titled “To the Lone Wolves in America: How to Make a Bomb in Your Kitchen, to Create Scenes of Horror in Tourist Spots and Other Targets,” the post suggests attacking Times Square and Las Vegas in particular, but also says tourist sites in Texas and metro stations throughout the U.S. would make good targets.


http://www.vocativ.com/world/isis-2/isis-pipe-bomb-attack-america/


I think ISIS sees itself as more of a cause than an organization, and thus, one that sympathizes with them, doesn't need to submit a "business plan" for approval in order to carry out dastardly acts.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...kill-westerners-has-terrorism-experts-divided


> “If you can kill a disbelieving American or European – especially the spiteful and filthy French – or an Australian, or a Canadian, or any other disbeliever from the disbelievers waging war, including the citizens of the countries that entered into a coalition against the Islamic State, then rely upon Allah, and kill him in any manner or way however it may be,” said al-Adnani.
> “Do not ask for anyone’s advice and do not seek anyone’s verdict. Kill the disbeliever whether he is civilian or military, for they have the same ruling. Both of them are disbelievers.”


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Diablo said:


> Explain.
> Why would we think hes not a terrorist?
> Because he acted alone?


By all the accounts I've read today, he has no ties to _an_y ideology, he was just a mentally unstable homeless dude.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

bw66 said:


> By all the accounts I've read today, he has no ties to _an_y ideology, he was just a mentally unstable homeless dude.


A homeless dude with a car and guns.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

bw66 said:


> By all the accounts I've read today, he has no ties to _an_y ideology, he was just a mentally unstable homeless dude.


I dunno, everything ive heard is that hed become strongly religious upon converting to Islam.
So while that doesn't automatically make someone a terrorist, I wouldn't go so far as to assert with any certainty that he "had no ties to any idealogy".
he wished to go to the middle east but was also on a no-fly list and had his passport seized. So maybe a little more than just a loopy homeless dude.

I think its likely he was BOTH a terrorist and insane. I don't think the 2 are at all mutually exclusive.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Milkman said:


> A homeless dude with a car and guns.


Who washes his feet a lot.


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## doriangrey (Mar 29, 2011)

Diablo said:


> I dunno, everything ive heard is that hed become strongly religious upon converting to Islam.
> So while that doesn't automatically make someone a terrorist, I wouldn't go so far as to assert with any certainty that he "had no ties to any idealogy".
> he wished to go to the middle east but was also on a no-fly list and had his passport seized. So maybe a little more than just a loopy homeless dude.
> 
> I think its likely he was BOTH a terrorist and insane. I don't think the 2 are at all mutually exclusive.


...I concur


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

People convert for a few reasons. Sometimes they do so because they have to, whether because of marriage, or oppressive regimes. But when they convert because they _want_ to, it is generally because they turn to an absorption into a religion to fix a life that feels broken to them, or incomplete in some way. They have a strong desire for clarity. I recall a friend whose thesis work found that members of the cult he was studying (which, by definition, precludes any of them growing up in that faith line) tended to be less tolerant of ambiguity than non cult-members. People also convert because they want answers; they "want all the pieces to fit". I think all of us wantthat, but when someone takes a literal leap of faith, they may be desiring /needing of more than the rest of us.

So the notion that someone turns a particular way _because_ they convert is misleading. The motives they bring with them to the practice of their new religion were pretty much in place already. The new religion just gives them a way to express it, or the sense that they CAN express it. Folks here who may know or be related to someone who has converted will tell you that very often such persons can get obnoxious about it; becoming more religious than those born into that faith, whether they are brand new Buddhists, Sikhs, chasids, or "born-agains". Family members will say "You know, I used to be able to sit down for a beer/meal with them, but now my food/drink is somehow not good enough for them", "They're always quoting scriptures at me, or telling me I'm going to hell".

That's not any sort of attack or argument against conversion. But some folks DO take it too far, and _their_ adoption/practice of their new religion should not be taken as a reflection of how _everyone else_ practices it. So when you hear about someone who does something rash, and even horrific, and you learn they converted to this or that, understand that _the conversion_ is not the problem. Rather the conversion is a symptom of the problem that was bubbling up to the surface.

This Bibeau kid seemed to have haD his demons. To hear the people from the shelter he was staying in talk about him, he wanted to get straight and could not do it. It would seem from what they say, that he turned to conversion as a way to help him get straight, but clearly his demons were not going to pick up and move just because he got religion.

I had suggested earlier that his mother's line of work may have acquainted him with issues that angered him. Clearly I was dead wrong, since his mother told reporters that she hadn't had contact with him for 5 years, prior to having lunch with him last week. The guy was largely estranged from his family, and after all the trouble they gave him, I can see why.

Apparently, the desire to leave Canada for Libya was to get clean. Unfortunately, wanting to go to Libya to get straight, doesn't sound nearly as innocent as "I'm going to Wales/Poland/Hong Kong/Cape Breton, where my dad's from, to get away from my life here and finally get straight".


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

If nobody else has said it, let me be the first.

Three cheers for Kevin Vickers.

I was just watching clips of them reopening parliament and then one of Harper walking across the commons and shaking his hand.

Nice.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Aas much credit as Mr. Vickers deserves, Const. Samearn Son, a 10-year veteran of the Commons security team, was the first person to try to stop the shooter at the front entrance, and deserves some credit too. He grabbed the barrel of the rifle as the shooter entered the Center Block, pointed it down, and yelled "Gun! Gun! Gun!". He was shot in the foot, and while he did not "stop" the shooter, he delayed progress a bit, and the shot alerted other security personnel inside, allowing them to be more ready, and do what they did. I tip my hat humbly to Sergeant-at-Arms Vickers, but there's a pretty good chance he might be dead or seriously wounded now were it not for Const. Son that took one in the foot.

So here's to both of them.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

bw66 said:


> By all the accounts I've read today, he has no ties to _an_y ideology, he was just a mentally unstable homeless dude.


When I wrote that, I hadn't heard anything other than speculation that he might be a Muslim - and I had memories of the initial response to the Oklahoma City bombing rolling around in my head. His conversion to Islam is now being presented as fact and I accept that. However it still appears to me that this is more a case of "suicide-by-cop" than anything else.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Not sure when people equated terrorism to islam. Oh yes, its because the Americans changed the definition with the Patriot act. The guy is a shit bag terorist, just not by the American definition. Most acts of this kind are acts of terorism, no matter the ideology. He could be an athiest and he would still be a shitbag terorist. Want proof? Just look at the public reaction..............


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The public reaction is a byproduct of the form and content of the news coverage, but also the reaction of the legislators who were holed up in the HoC. I understand their reaction; same way I understand the reaction of the Pentagon to 09/11...because one of those airplanes crashed down on _them_. That is not to say the rest of us_ should _shrug our shoulders and mutter "Yeah, yeah, yeah, nutbar shoots some guy, no big whoop, happens all the time, whaddya gonna do". But when the agenda and the budgeting for the response happens to be set by the few hundred people who were most affected by the event, it changes the quality and extent of the response. 

You will note that when Denis Lortie burst into the Quebec legislature and killed not one, but_ three _employees there ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis_Lortie One of my oldest friends ended up being his defense lawyer, though not by choice), there was no national response, like we see here. There was no move towards increasing powers for national security agencies/authorities. Of course, that event was pre-09/11, so we were less sensitive about such matters. But I can't help but think that, where NO federal security legislation came out of that (although it partly fueled Quebec's somewhat distinct preference for a firearms registry, compared to other provinces), it WILL come from this incident, simply because the people who can draft and pass such legislation were the ones holed up in offices wondering whether the gunshots were coming for_ them_.

Incidentally, the National Assembly's own Sergeant-at-Arms, René Jalbert, was also the hero in that event, and talked Lortie into surrendering his weapons. I wonder if Jalbert and Vickers ever met. Sadly, Jalbert passed away in 1996, so they can't trade notes now.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Accept2 said:


> Not sure when people equated terrorism to islam. Oh yes, its because the Americans changed the definition with the Patriot act. The guy is a shit bag terorist, just not by the American definition. Most acts of this kind are acts of terorism, no matter the ideology. He could be an athiest and he would still be a shitbag terorist. Want proof? Just look at the public reaction..............


It was before 9/11 / patriot Act. Suicide bombings, car bombings etc by muslims usually against jews were regular news items. it just hadn't made its way across the pond to us yet.

I admit, its very unclear with this guy, because of the absence of a "manifesto" type thing proclaiming the purpose of his attack.
But I wouldn't rule it out.
he was maybe just smart enough to not give away too many details that might lead to him getting caught before he finished the job.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

A local imam was interviewed on local CBC radio this morning, and he noted something very interesting in relation to converts. Echoing what I posted yesterday, he too finds that people seeking conversion (and he was similarly quick to say it doesn't matter from or to what religion) are often people "seeking answers". He was fine with that, but rather dismayed, however, at how much such persons tended to get their information about the religion they were in the process of adopting _from the internet_, rather than talking to a cleric. If I understood him correctly, he was of the mind that this was the source of such persons becoming "radicalized".


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

mhammer said:


> A local imam was interviewed on local CBC radio this morning, and he noted something very interesting in relation to converts. Echoing what I posted yesterday, he too finds that people seeking conversion (and he was similarly quick to say it doesn't matter from or to what religion) are often people "seeking answers". He was fine with that, but rather dismayed, however, at how much such persons tended to get their information about the religion they were in the process of adopting _from the internet_, rather than talking to a cleric. If I understood him correctly, he was of the mind that this was the source of such persons becoming "radicalized".


That makes sense.
You have a person in mental/emotional turmoil already, probably disenfranchised from family/friends. Possibly with a skewed understanding of what they are embarking on. And possibly desperate to prove themselves/earn their way into the fold, even if its based on a false understanding.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

The best thing Bibeau did was show us some weaknesses in our system. As Mark postulates, I expect changes are coming

As a terrorist, and it seems to me possibly in his life in general, he was just shy of a total failure. Unfortunately for Cirillo. Even with his ancient (at least by design) rifle, he could have shot many people. And with just a wee bit of planning, it could have been some important government people. Nope, as a terrorist, a terrible one. Damned good thing, I guess...who wants a good one?


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

keto said:


> The best thing Bibeau did was show us some weaknesses in our system. As Mark postulates, I expect changes are coming
> 
> As a terrorist, and it seems to me possibly in his life in general, he was just shy of a total failure. Unfortunately for Cirillo. Even with his ancient (at least by design) rifle, he could have shot many people. *And with just a wee bit of planning, it could have been some important government people. Nope, as a terrorist, a terrible one. *Damned good thing, I guess...who wants a good one?


Its true. If he hadn't wasted his time with Cirillo he could have run amok and maybe even taken out some big names. Scary.

I think its unfortunate because as youre right, changes are coming....and they will make things less accessible for everyone else, which has always been one of the great things about going to Ottawa.

Oh and BTW, the costs associated with the changes will be out of yours and my taxes.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Interesting article on the rifle used on the CBC site. Maximum capacity: 8 rounds before reloading. Three were used up at the cenotaph, two on Cirillo, one on another guard, leaving only 5 for the entire Parliament Hill. Was this suicide-by-cop?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Interesting article on the rifle used on the CBC site. Maximum capacity: 8 rounds before reloading. Three were used up at the cenotaph, two on Cirillo, one on another guard, leaving only 5 for the entire Parliament Hill. Was this suicide-by-cop?


Maybe, or maybe it was all he could get a hold of.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Maybe, or maybe it was all he could get a hold of.


good point. While Canadians own a lot of guns per capita, anything other than hunting gear is really hard to come by.

Do we know if he had any other clip/ammo on his person?

I suppose it doesn't matter.

lee Harvey Oswald (assuming we all buy the official story) had a pretty antiquated weapon and not much ammo. So, someone can do a lot with a little, "God willing".


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Who is ISIS? A splinter group, expelled from Al Quaida for being too radical and violent.

Wow, how whacked do you have to be before _those _dirt bags won't even tolerate you?

http://www.brantfordexpositor.ca/2014/10/23/explained-everything-you-need-to-know-about-isis


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

Once he got to the Parliament Buildings , i think he was focus on killing the Prime Minister , He had plenty of opportunity to shoot other people on the way...he got to were Harper was when he was put down. He knew exactly were to go, he has no doubt been in the Parliament Building, and knew were Harper would be. 





mhammer said:


> Interesting article on the rifle used on the CBC site. Maximum capacity: 8 rounds before reloading. Three were used up at the cenotaph, two on Cirillo, one on another guard, leaving only 5 for the entire Parliament Hill. Was this suicide-by-cop?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Milkman said:


> Maybe, or maybe it was all he could get a hold of.


In that same article, it is noted that he was expressly prohibited from owning firearms, because of his criminal record. Now, I'm sure many here will retort that anybody in Canada can get just about any weapon they want, if they really want to. And, as one of my in-laws is a now-retired detective who used to work the Jane and Finch area corroborated, this assumption is relatively true. BUT, you gotta have money and connections to do so. And this guy was living in a shelter, with no visible means of support. Not the sort to plunk down a wad of unmarked bills in the back of someone's Escalade in an alleyway, and walk off with "the merchandise".

The police are still trying to figure out how and where he obtained the weapon used. I'm putting my money on theft, but we'll see. Keep in mind that one does have an obligation to keep firearms properly stored. So I would understand the reluctance of anyone who might not have stored theirs to come forward and tell the authorities "I think my hunting rifle was stolen, and some ammunition too".

BTW, being entirely unfamiliar with the world of firearms, is there necessary paperwork and license required to buy ammunition as well, or is it only required for the firearms itself? That is, can someone with a stolen firearm walk into a Canadian Tire and get the sales clerk to pull a box of shells out for them, or is something more involved...involved?


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Interesting article on the rifle used on the CBC site. Maximum capacity: 8 rounds before reloading. Three were used up at the cenotaph, two on Cirillo, one on another guard, leaving only 5 for the entire Parliament Hill. Was this suicide-by-cop?


Yeah, I noted that a page back, at least about the gun. 

Have we heard yet whether he was linked to ISIS or other causes?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

What we've basically heard is that we was NOT linked to anything, though he was known to have known somebody who is on the CSIS watch-list. Of course, that's how Maher Arar ended up getting rendered to Syria for torture; he knew a guy who knew a guy who knew a guy. Not a big fan of that sort of thing.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Interesting background: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...asked-b-c-judge-to-send-him-to-jail-1.2810683


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

More and more I think you are right, suicide by cop rather than any other motivation. Either way, a total loser asshole.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

You gotta wonder if the proper response to the incident is not to crack down harder, when it comes to "terror" and security, but to provide more drug rehab facilities and funding. 

And not that present-day Libya is necessarily the best place to go to get straight, but I would imagine that part of the guy's actions came from having his passport seized/blocked and finding out that what* he *construed as his last best hope was gone. Keep in mind his father is from there, so perhaps he has extended family still there.

And please remember that I'm not trying to evoke sympathy for someone who shot an innocent in the back and took a life. I'm just trying to dissect how it is that a person ends up doing something that is likely going to get them in a HUGE heap of trouble...or killed; there was no plan to pull this off and sneak away smirking. Yes, there are folks who do such things to be a "martyr", whether for ISIS, Al-Qaeda, for Emperor Hirohito, or even for the Allied Forces and King and country. But there are a lot of other reasons too, and one of them is "I just want it to end".

You wouldn't think there was a link between Wednesday's shooting, drug rehab, and assisted suicide legislation, but people do a_* lotta *_weird s**t when motivated by "I just want it to end".


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Rick31797 said:


> Once he got to the Parliament Buildings , i think he was focus on killing the Prime Minister , He had plenty of opportunity to shoot other people on the way...he got to were Harper was when he was put down. He knew exactly were to go, he has no doubt been in the Parliament Building, and knew were Harper would be.


Actually he did not know where to go. He went straight toward the library. If he had turned left he would have been able to go right into the Conservative caucus meeting where Harper was. Fortunately he was too stupid to know that.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I wouldn't describe anyone who does not work in the HoC as "too stupid to know that". How many of us here would have known that it was caucus-meeting day, or where the meeting rooms for each of the respective caucuses are? There's a lot most Canadians do not know about parliament, even folks who live in the city.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

I have never been there, but i think he..the shooter/killer, knew the lay-out..and it was planned.




mhammer said:


> I wouldn't describe anyone who does not work in the HoC as "too stupid to know that". How many of us here would have known that it was caucus-meeting day, or where the meeting rooms for each of the respective caucuses are? There's a lot most Canadians do not know about parliament, even folks who live in the city.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

I think its dangerous to apply the label "stupid" to people such as these. Clearly they are either misguided, not thinking straight, brainwashed, radicalized etc whichever you think might fit. But I don't think they're stupid. Think back to the 9/11 attacks: that was some pretty "out of the box" thinking to come up with the idea of stealing commercial airplanes then crashing them into buildings. They still had to come up with the co-ordinated plan to thwart security, use minimal tools, fly the airplanes etc.

100% misguided but not stupid.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

bagpipe said:


> I think its dangerous to apply the label "stupid" to people such as these. Clearly they are either misguided, not thinking straight, brainwashed, radicalized etc whichever you think might fit. But I don't think they're stupid. Think back to the 9/11 attacks: that was some pretty "out of the box" thinking to come up with the idea of stealing commercial airplanes then crashing them into buildings. They still had to come up with the co-ordinated plan to thwart security, use minimal tools, fly the airplanes etc.
> 
> 100% misguided but not stupid.


That's the difference between stupid and crazy.

Both are dangerous, but crazy can sometimes be more so. Add religious fundamentalism and ......well, you know.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Rick31797 said:


> I have never been there, but i think he..the shooter/killer, knew the lay-out..and it was planned.


I've been, multiple times, and there are only a few things that I could tell you where they are (one being the PM's office, but then he's hardly ever in that one, generally working in the Langevin block across the street from the cenotaph). And I'd probably be wrong about a few of them. I got a backroom cook's tour, and was shown one meeting room, but I honestly couldn't tell you where it was in the building. Tour groups that get brought around don't get to see all_ that _much, and the various meeting rooms, and their booking schedules are not exactly top secret, but neither is it anything that gets made public in any way because nobody is really interested, except the press, and they're already hanging around the building. I think you presume too much here. The guy probably just ran in the front door, and likely didn't have much of a clue from there.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

mhammer said:


> I've been, multiple times, and there are only a few things that I could tell you where they are (one being the PM's office, but then he's hardly ever in that one, generally working in the Langevin block across the street from the cenotaph). And I'd probably be wrong about a few of them. I got a backroom cook's tour, and was shown one meeting room, but I honestly couldn't tell you where it was in the building. Tour groups that get brought around don't get to see all_ that _much, and the various meeting rooms, and their booking schedules are not exactly top secret, but neither is it anything that gets made public in any way because nobody is really interested, except the press, and they're already hanging around the building. I think you presume too much here. The guy probably just ran in the front door, and likely didn't have much of a clue from there.


But he did run into the correct door, so he at least know the right general area to attack. Whether unwittingly or not (hard to believe), he was within close striking distance of the PM, leader of the opposition and many MPs.


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## Rick31797 (Apr 20, 2007)

if he didn't know the building ,its seems he was very lucky to get to the right room, where the meeting was going on.. by the time he got there Harper was gone, but Mr Vickers was not...and he met his fate... maybe more of the story will come out..


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

As I understand it, the various caucus meetings were going on in roomslibrary and ironically a few feet of where the shooter was, with no attempt on his part to enter the rooms. When you come in the main entrance, you have three choices of where to go: straight, left or right. Straight takes you to the Library, with not a lot along the way except a lot of limestone (with actual fossils in it too!). Left and right take you down a hallway with offices, whose doors you can't see through, so you have minimal idea of how big they are or who might be in them. Right brings you to Senate, eventually, and left brings you to the House of Commons. From the description, it seems like after the initial gunshot into Constable Son's leg, the shooter didn't get a lot farther in any direction.

Addendum: So it seems like he went straight, in the direction of the library and, ironically, in the direction of Ken Vickers' office. One of my former coworkers works in the library.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

With all due respect to the victims and their families, Mr. Brand makes some interesting and valid observations.

[video=youtube_share;ALEaAAU3KAE]http://youtu.be/ALEaAAU3KAE[/video]


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