# Band crap!



## Lola

Ya, you read that right! The shit just hit the fan. So the other guitar player who does some lead lines and solos has torn his Achilles tendon and can't possibly make it to rehearsal on Friday. He plays the solo to Comfortably numb(maybe I can half ass it by Friday) and the 2nd solo in Knocking on Heaven's door(no problem there) plus 2 other brand new songs. The singer has designated me to learn all of this by Friday for rehearsal because we are recording. Who made him god? I have to work all weekend because of crap that didn't get done and I can't dedicate a lot of practice time because of my work load this up coming week not to mention the usual stuff at home. The singer texted me at 12:30 last night and said it's all on my shoulders now. I haven't slept all night due to stress and worry. I might be able to pull it off half assed but not even 50%. Too much too learn. I can't afford to burn a bridge with this singer. There just too damned hard to find, a good one at least. Oh ya, did I mention the other guitar player has been playing for 27 years compared to my 6.

It's like he put the boots to me. Shit, I keep everything and everyone's schedules together, book everything an manage whatever else needs to be done. I am the one putting out adds out on various sites looking for people. I am the glue that holds it all together. I really want to tell this singer to bite me but I won't.

Any advice? This is already taking a toll on me mentally as well as physically in less than 24 hours.

I am so fed up with this guy always calling the shots. I let him because I don't want to lose him. He also occasionally says he's coming to rehearsal and last minute says he can't come.

I have already tried to replace him but the flakes on the adds that I have posted either don't show, are too young or aren't compatible with the set list.

This really sucks.


----------



## SaucyJack

Hand him a guitar and tell him he has to learn them, or....tell him you've got 10 new songs he's got get done asap.


----------



## Lola

SaucyJack said:


> Hand him a guitar and tell him he has to learn them, or....tell him you've got 10 new songs he's got get done asap.


He does play acoustic. I am seriously going to tell him he has to learn the solos. Thanks, problem solved! I will put the onus back on him. He's going to flip right out but I don't care!


----------



## Guest

If I were in your situation, I'd improvise the solos using what licks I do know of the specific songs.
'That'll have to do for now. I'll try to learn to play it accurately when I have the time to'.


----------



## ed2000

Ask yourself, what's more important - your mental health or the health of the musical project?


----------



## blueshores_guy

You say the other guitarist has torn his achilles tendon and can't possibly make it to rehearsal on Friday. Why not try to address that issue? Can the guy walk? Can he walk with a cane? Crutches? Can he get into a cab? Can he play sitting down?


----------



## mhammer

If people want the solo note for note, they can always put the record on. There's nothing wrong with putting your own stamp on the solo, with as much soul as you can fit into your own chops. In fact, that might be less of a problem than trying to nail someone else's solo and going all Nick Jonas in the middle of it. In other words, the challenge is not the solo; it's the unrealistic expectations.

And realistically, it's one song at one gig. Just exactly how much is that going to alter the course of western civilization?


----------



## Budda

I'd give him a hard "screw you" and find a replacement.


----------



## Lola

blueshores_guy said:


> You say the other guitarist has torn his achilles tendon and can't possibly make it to rehearsal on Friday. Why not try to address that issue? Can the guy walk? Can he walk with a cane? Crutches? Can he get into a cab? Can he play sitting down?


Nope he can't walk and is on sick leave from work. He is a my friend, a valuable member of the band, responsible and always on time. I would never do that to him. He lives far away from the studio and to take a cab might cost him $100 or more. _ I know because in my young and stupid days I took a cab from downtown to where I live and it cost me just short of $110. He lives not too far away from me. _


----------



## sulphur

Is this for a band practice, or for a gig?

If it's for a practice and there's no gig in the near future, I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Learn what you can, no panic.


----------



## Lola

Budda said:


> I'd give him a hard "screw you" and find a replacement.


I have been trying SO hard and no luck so far!


----------



## Guncho

Are you paying money to record cover songs? Why the tight timeline?


----------



## keto

Yeah, recording delayed until the right person is ready. Done, unless you've paid a big booking fee or something.

Also, quit letting the singer push you around. If he walks so what. Which is more stressfull for you, only you can decide - being without a singer or being with an asshole. I guess you've already answered that, but bitching about it isn't helping lol


----------



## Steadfastly

In the long run you will find it is not as big an issue as you thought it was. I know it's easy to say but being over anxious about it, Lola, is not going to help. Just do your best and you will find out that it's not really too bad at all. Tell him you will do you best and explain that you only have X amount of time because of other obligations. Then ask him if he has any other ideas that could help. That nicely puts the onus back on him and lets him know you are not making excuses but this is the reality of the situation.

Also, could you put the recording off for another week?


----------



## sulphur

Ah, I missed the recording issue, I'd put that off for now, if possible.


----------



## Bubb

Your singer sounds like an asshat...unless he is just yanking your chain.
It's a rehearsal not a performance or real recording session right ?
What is he realistically going to do if you don't "nail it" ?

If he was/is serious I'd have half a mind to skip the night too,then there would be no guitar players.

Just go and play,wing it,I never cared for note for note solo copies anyways,I can hear those on the album....make it your own.

This is supposed to be fun right ?It's not Massy Hall and studio execs.


----------



## greco

Bubb said:


> *This is supposed to be fun right?* It's not Massy Hall and studio execs.


BINGO!!...We have a winner!


----------



## Budda

Lola said:


> I have been trying SO hard and no luck so far!


Life is too short to waste time with assholes. Tell him to walk, and record whatever you have as instrumentals. Wing the solos. Like someone else said, it's supposed to be fun.


----------



## Mooh

There should be a level playing field between band members when it comes to such things. Equal his demands with those of your own and maybe a compromise can be reached. As tempting as handing him his ass on a pink slip may be, it won't solve anything in the short term.


----------



## Granny Gremlin

Maybe I'm missing something but how does tearing an achilles tendon stop one from playing guitar? Especially if just practise or recording (vs live); just sit down and go.


----------



## hollowbody

Lola said:


> Ya, you read that right! The shit just hit the fan. So the other guitar player who does some lead lines and solos has torn his Achilles tendon and can't possibly make it to rehearsal on Friday. He plays the solo to Comfortably numb(maybe I can half ass it by Friday) and the 2nd solo in Knocking on Heaven's door(no problem there) plus 2 other brand new songs. The singer has designated me to learn all of this by Friday for rehearsal because we are recording. Who made him god? I have to work all weekend because of crap that didn't get done and I can't dedicate a lot of practice time because of my work load this up coming week not to mention the usual stuff at home. The singer texted me at 12:30 last night and said it's all on my shoulders now. I haven't slept all night due to stress and worry. I might be able to pull it off half assed but not even 50%. Too much too learn. I can't afford to burn a bridge with this singer. There just too damned hard to find, a good one at least. Oh ya, did I mention the other guitar player has been playing for 27 years compared to my 6.
> 
> It's like he put the boots to me. Shit, I keep everything and everyone's schedules together, book everything an manage whatever else needs to be done. I am the one putting out adds out on various sites looking for people. I am the glue that holds it all together. I really want to tell this singer to bite me but I won't.
> 
> Any advice? This is already taking a toll on me mentally as well as physically in less than 24 hours.
> 
> I am so fed up with this guy always calling the shots. I let him because I don't want to lose him. He also occasionally says he's coming to rehearsal and last minute says he can't come.
> 
> I have already tried to replace him but the flakes on the adds that I have posted either don't show, are too young or aren't compatible with the set list.
> 
> This really sucks.


If the band isn't ready to record, then the band isn't ready to record. That's the simple truth. If the other guitarist isn't there, then it's not the whole band. I'd just call-off recording and move on. Just have a regular rehearsal until buddy is able to play again.


----------



## sulphur

Couldn't the recording be revisited and overdubbed when the lead player is more mobile?

Or just postponed?


----------



## davetcan

laristotle said:


> If I were in your situation, I'd improvise the solos using what licks I do know of the specific songs.
> 'That'll have to do for now. I'll try to learn to play it accurately when I have the time to'.


That's all I ever do


----------



## hollowbody

sulphur said:


> Couldn't the recording be revisited and overdubbed when the lead player is more mobile?
> 
> Or just postponed?


This, too. I'm assuming if the recording is that important, then it's a multi-track session so that when the other player is healthy, they can just punch-in their parts? 

Or, hell, this is 2017. Save the session and send it to them and have them record their parts to it and comp it together afterwards.


----------



## Robboman

Lola said:


> I haven't slept all night due to stress and worry.





Lola said:


> This is already taking a toll on me mentally as well as physically in less than 24 hours.


You can't control what others say or do, you can only control how you react to it. Is it possible that YOU are taking this way too seriously? 

I'm sure there's more back story and maybe he is a giant asshole. But it sounds like all he did was ask you to try to learn a few parts on short notice. Not knowing him or you, it seems like a reasonable ask. Either you give it a shot, or Friday gets cancelled. Why not just tell him you'll give it a shot and do your best? OR.. tell him you can't and explain why the best thing for the band is to postpone. Either way, don't stress. Shit happens. 

It IS supposed to be fun, overall, but every good band takes a certain amount of effort, attention to detail, time commitment, org ability, etc. Otherwise you can't get anything done. The key is to find the balance.

Sorry if I sound like a know-it-all jerk. If you only posted to vent and get some empathy, carry on. That can be healthy too.


----------



## Lola

He always late for rehearsal by not 10 or 15 minutes it could be up to 2 hours. Strike 1. He told me he doesn't know how long he can wait for this band to come to fruition. Strike 2. He's not holding a gun to my head. I won't tolerate that and shouldn't have to. He's leaving for India in May and won't be back until the end of July maybe even August. He has missed so many rehearsals. Last minute text of 5 minutes or so until we play saying he can't make it! Obviously there is a commitment issue. Strike 3

I have been at work all day and I have 8 txts from him. I blocked him. I don't need this shit.

I am going to let this dude walk! I don't care anymore. I am venting but was looking for solutions from my forum mates. I will find another singer. I just can't tolerate this mess anymore.

P.S. The last time he showed up for rehearsal was Sept 9 2016. That was 6 months ago. I wanted to give him a chance but I can't anymore and now he thinks I will dance to the beat of his drum. No way! done. The bass player sings but not really a singer and has been subbing for him since this MIA stint. Now you really know what we are putting up with!

He told me that we have been playing the same 14 songs all the time. Well it might help if we had a responsible singer that showed up like the rest of us, on time and ready to play. Then we could add new material with the whole band being a part of the decision.


----------



## vadsy

Robboman said:


> You can't control what others say or do, you can only control how you react to it. Is it possible that YOU are taking this way too seriously?
> 
> I'm sure there's more back story and maybe he is a giant asshole. But it sounds like all he did was ask you to try to learn a few parts on short notice. Not knowing him or you, it seems like a reasonable ask. Either you give it a shot, or Friday gets cancelled. Why not just tell him you'll give it a shot and do your best? OR.. tell him you can't and explain why the best thing for the band is to postpone. Either way, don't stress. Shit happens.
> 
> It IS supposed to be fun, overall, but every good band takes a certain amount of effort, attention to detail, time commitment, org ability, etc. Otherwise you can't get anything done. The key is to find the balance.
> 
> Sorry if I sound like a know-it-all jerk. If you only posted to vent and get some empathy, carry on. That can be healthy too.


You keep making sense like this and she's going to put you on the ignore list. Careful.
The drama is strong with Lola.

My advice,.., don't overreact. Take it easy and chat this over with everyone before making any rash decisions. Life happens to people and it can't be helped, today it's someone else and tomorrow it could be you. Things can be rescheduled and it won't matter what the problem was in a little time from now. Quit stressing this, it's small stuff.


----------



## Guncho

Is this a for fun cover band or a regularly gigging money making one cause it doesn't sound like a lot of fun.

This also reminds me why I stopped playing in bands.


----------



## allthumbs56

Guncho said:


> Is this a for fun cover band or a regularly gigging money making one cause it doesn't sound like a lot of fun.
> 
> This also reminds me why I stopped playing in bands.


Yeah, I have as many questions as anything. First one being "What are you trying to accomplish?". Are you trying to be a working band? How much polish does everyone really require (including the vocals) if you're out to have fun? 

I find the hardest thing about putting together a band is hooking up with folks who are on the same page - 100%. Right from the type of music to schedules and commitments to investment in gear and time. Compromise works wonders - and is necessary - but your goals have to be in line.

I don't get the urgency - the singer hasn't been around for months, half of your guitar players are out of action and all of a sudden Friday becomes a deadline and all of the weight is on you....................... not right ....................... not fair.


----------



## Hamstrung

If the last time he showed for rehearsal was Sept 9/2016 I'd say he walked a long time ago. People come and go but if you want to have anything resembling a cohesive unit you'll need the same people to show pretty consistently. I get antsy when we can't get together more than twice a month at a minimum (sliding scale depending on the skill level of the people involved)! This is much harder to do with adults who have jobs/family/obligations/quirks etc... Put your head down and forge ahead... It's all you can do! Good luck! 
A suggestion, if possible seek out adult "band camp" type of activities that will put you in touch with like minded individuals. I know this forum's own "snacker" is running a week long adult rock band camp this summer.


----------



## Chito

He hasn't rehearsed in 6 months and he wants you to be there to do all the guitar parts asap. 6 months is a long time. I would've told him to go find himself another band that will tolerate him. I've been in a few bands, some I called them out for what I believe is not right. The last band I joined, they were beyond reasonable with their expectations. At the same time they suck. LOL Life is too short to have to deal with what you're dealing with. Just move on.


----------



## hollowbody

Lola said:


> He always late for rehearsal by not 10 or 15 minutes it could be up to 2 hours. Strike 1. He told me he doesn't know how long he can wait for this band to come to fruition. Strike 2. He's not holding a gun to my head. I won't tolerate that and shouldn't have to. He's leaving for India in May and won't be back until the end of July maybe even August. He has missed so many rehearsals. Last minute text of 5 minutes or so until we play saying he can't make it! Obviously there is a commitment issue. Strike 3
> 
> I have been at work all day and I have 8 txts from him. I blocked him. I don't need this shit.
> 
> I am going to let this dude walk! I don't care anymore. I am venting but was looking for solutions from my forum mates. I will find another singer. I just can't tolerate this mess anymore.
> 
> P.S. The last time he showed up for rehearsal was Sept 9 2016. That was 6 months ago. I wanted to give him a chance but I can't anymore and now he thinks I will dance to the beat of his drum. No way! done. The bass player sings but not really a singer and has been subbing for him since this MIA stint. Now you really know what we are putting up with!
> 
> He told me that we have been playing the same 14 songs all the time. Well it might help if we had a responsible singer that showed up like the rest of us, on time and ready to play. Then we could add new material with the whole band being a part of the decision.


Hahaha, this is a shitshow! Get rid of this guy! No one deserves having to put up with this crap. Someone like that is the LAST person who should be making demands of others in the band.


----------



## Lola

My intention was to put together a band of like minded individuals who wanted to do a couple of paid gigs here and there. I thought we were all on the same page but obviously I am dreaming. 

Please don't hate me because I gave him too many chances to prove himself. I should of made it crystal clear to him after being so late for so many rehearsals all the time and pulling this MIA crap. Plus when he couldn't pay for renting the rehearsal studio I bailed him out and he hasn't paid me back. Just $20 but it's the principle!


----------



## Guncho

So what's the big rush with the recording? Do you have studio time booked?


----------



## davetcan

If it's been 6 months then he is already not in the band.


----------



## Budda

davetcan said:


> If it's been 6 months then he is already not in the band.


He was out 5 months ago.


----------



## greco

The lack of logic in combination with all the drama in this thread has me totally confused. 
Admittedly, I AM (a bit) old. 
Hence, I am possibly prone to being easily confused.


----------



## Bubb

lol...with the latest update,I'm not even sure why you would expect him to show up this time.

He's not your singer.he's a guy that shows up now and then.

If he does show...tell him you have completely revised the song list..you are playing all originals now.


----------



## Bubb

greco said:


> The lack of logic in combination with all the drama in this thread has me totally confused.
> Admittedly, I AM (a bit) old.
> Hence, I am possibly prone to being easily confused.



naw...old and wise my friend !

there should be no drama where there is no logic


----------



## 4345567

__________


----------



## cheezyridr

yeah, i have to say, i would have said to him "hey, are you thirsty? seems like you need a tall glass of fuck the fuck off"
i can only speak from my own experience, but we spent a year gettin the line up we have now, and then another year writing the 8 songs we have. we made it understood from the beginning that we all have families, jobs, and secret super-hero alter identities, and nothing was going to happen in a hurry. stress free was the major thing. 
lastly, you could always do what we just did. remember we were supposed to record at the chalet? my divorce and upcoming return to the states killed that so we are recording ourselves. it's a hell of alot cheaper. we may not sound like we would at the chalet, but we can do well enough to satisfy ourselves. you could do the same. all the software we are using is free stuff, and not hard to learn how to use. so far we've had pretty good results using riffworks t4 and cubase.


----------



## Scottone

LOL, this is exactly why I learned to sing. I could't take dealing with lead singers anymore


----------



## grumpyoldman

Scottone said:


> LOL, this is exactly why I learned to sing. I could't take dealing with lead singers anymore


Damn, why-oh-why can you only click "Like" ONCE???

John
thegrumpyoldman


----------



## vadsy

Scottone said:


> LOL, this is exactly why I learned to sing. I could't take dealing with lead singers anymore


I think in this case it may be more than just the lead singer being the problem.


----------



## Steadfastly

grumpyoldman said:


> why-oh-why can you only click "Like" ONCE???
> 
> John
> thegrumpyoldman


Like, like, like, like, like, like, like.........................


----------



## Lola

not using my brain is illogical, just thinking with my heart

Sorry I am a such a dumb ass! I should know better!

It's drama but it's reality! This is affecting


----------



## ronmac

I miss being 16...


----------



## ronmac

I miss being 16.


----------



## Chitmo

Sounds like you let people dictate what's going to happen instead of planning together. Dump the works and start over. I'm assuming the band started for fun and not a main source of income. Hobbies are meant to be relaxing, just an FYI. #firstworldproblems


----------



## Lola

Chitmo said:


> Sounds like you let people dictate what's going to happen instead of planning together. Dump the works and start over. I'm assuming the band started for fun and not a main source of income. Hobbies are meant to be relaxing, just an FYI. #firstworldproblems


It was for fun. Each of us were just jamming at open jams for fun with other bands. That's how we met. We just sort of gelled and stayed together. I have played with the other rhythm guitar player for 2 1/2 years. The bass player for over a year. The other rhythm/solo player for almost a year this April. I put an ad on Kijiji looking for a singer. He's been with us since last May. The new drummer has been with us for about 3 months. He definitely a keeper. The kid as we call him was better at attending reheasals but still was late by a bit and did one or two no shows in the beginning but the no shows and the last minute excuses became annoyingly predictable to say the least. It's just the singer. The others always show up on time and are ready to go. We respect each other, listen to each others ideas objectively and get along so well.

This is really important to me.

We had a meeting a couple of times with everyone concerned about playing gigs. The only one that didn't quite agree was the other rhythm player. He thought he most likely be a nervous wreck. He managed to overcome his fears somewhat. I suggested we have a open house just to get him used to playing in front of others. We have had fill ins for everyone. It can really help your learning curve. What a great and positive experience for the most part. We always have a helluva lot of fun together. It was fun with the kid in the beginning too but!

Did I learn as lesson, you ask? Yup I sure did!!
(promise I will never ever ask a dumb ass question like this again!) While I had a lapse in logical thinking I am back to thinking in a more rational and objective way.

Greco I am so sorry to have confused you. No harm intended!

PS I brought it up on this forum cuz I knew that there's some of you that can relate. I just wanted to get opinions and feedback from those who have had the displeasure of dealing with a situation like this. *I respect your opinions.* This is my only option but to ask here. lol


----------



## 4345567

__________


----------



## Lola

nkjanssen said:


> Seriously, what's the deal with the recording session? Are you just recording a rehearsal for fun? Doesn't seem like something worth getting stressed about.


No we aren't not recording for fun. Hopefully a few paying gigs down the road from this!


----------



## greco

Lola said:


> Greco I am so sorry to have confused you. No harm intended!


No need to apologize. 

I don't think anyone was harmed in the making of this thread.

Get back to playing your guitar, making music and having fun!


----------



## cheezyridr

Lola said:


> No we aren't not recording for fun. Hopefully a few paying gigs down the road from this!


riffworks and cubase are definitely good enough to produce a useable demo, and not hard to learn how to use. if a dummy like me can figure it out, anyone can


----------



## Adcandour

nkjanssen said:


> Why are you recording covers?


I was thinking the same thing. Maybe to get paying gigs at weddings or something? I don't gig or anything, so I'm not sure, but it does seem a bit much.


----------



## Scotty

Whats wrong with communicating and telling him how you feel. The situ is not your fault and you are doing your best. People can only do what they can do and there are other four letter words such as "life" and "work" which must come before "Play" (Unless the intent of this band is to make all of the above) 
Nothing wrong with saying he's being unrealistic


----------



## bzrkrage

ronmac said:


> I miss being 16...





ronmac said:


> I miss being 16.


One more time and I THINK the age is about right......


Sent from my other other brain.


----------



## Chito

Is this singer the guy we met at the Riff Wrath jam? That was last September I believe and that's pretty close to the last time he showed up for rehearsals?


----------



## Lord-Humongous

My suggestion:
1. Play a free gig somewhere (how about a house party) and videotape it, edit the best parts together and that can be your demo.
2. For the solos that you don't know, just improvise a little pentatonic run in whatever key you are in. You may not melt someone's face, but you won't be wrong and your band mates and audience won't even know otherwise.


----------



## davetcan

Lola said:


> *No we aren't not recording for fun.*


Damn, that's a tough sentence to get one's head around


----------



## Lola

Chito said:


> Is this singer the guy we met at the Riff Wrath jam? That was last September I believe and that's pretty close to the last time he showed up for rehearsals?


When was the date of Riff Wrath? I guess pretty much. Yup, that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

It's going to be hard to find a singer but whatever I will!

The writing was on the wall a long time ago but I guess too blind to see it. I was thinking subjectively. Objectively it's black and white. He's outta here!


----------



## Lola

I just texted and told him that he should look for another band to play in.

I just stated the truth objectively.

I told him that other bands wouldn't tolerate his no shows and the fact that he has been MIA since September of 2016.


----------



## allthumbs56

davetcan said:


> Damn, that's a tough sentence to get one's head around


It's a self-cancelling double negative................... wait a minute - it's starts with "No" which makes it a triple negative. I believe properly parsed it means ................. shit my head just exploded.


----------



## greco

When is the movie version of this thread expected to come out?


----------



## Lola

He just texted me and told me he can't commit. So be it. I will find someone.


----------



## Lola

allthumbs56 said:


> It's a self-cancelling double negative................... wait a minute - it's starts with "No" which makes it a triple negative. I believe properly parsed it means ................. shit my head just exploded.


Hey and now you're making fun of me cuz I don't no grammar rules!


----------



## Lola

greco said:


> When is the movie version of this thread expected to come out?


Would you like a part? lol I can't pay you but you might like the experience that this opportunity would provide you. lol


----------



## Chito

Lola said:


> He just texted me and told me he can't commit. So be it. I will find someone.


Whenever I start up a band or get someone to join, commitment is the first thing I ask about. Like I lay down everything that we are doing in the band. Rehearsals every Sunday afternoon at my house, a couple of gigs per month, we don't make money out of it, we play covers and originals and lastly, this is my band, not yours. LOL I also do most of the music writing and arranging, bookings, arranging of schedules, etc.. If you don't like those rules, there's no point in going on with it. I don't have any qualms about replacing anyone. Once you have a full band it is easier to find replacements as people tend to join bands that are already established as opposed to a band that is just forming.

Anyway, that's my experience...


----------



## vadsy

Lola said:


> Hey and now you're making fun of me cuz I don't no grammar rules!


*know


----------



## allthumbs56

Lola said:


> He just texted me and told me he can't commit. So be it. I will find someone.


Contrary to popular belief, singers are not that hard to find - go to any open mic or kareoke. What's hard to find is a frontman/woman. The ability to entertain is rare. I see many bands with great front people who are not necessarily great singers but excel at engaging the audience. Sounds like your guy didn't have much of a personality.


----------



## allthumbs56

Lola said:


> Hey and now you're making fun of me cuz I don't no grammar rules!


Nope - I still don't know what you meant about the whole recording thing. I tried to understand but then my head exploded.


----------



## Lola

Chito said:


> Whenever I start up a band or get someone to join, commitment is the first thing I ask about. Like I lay down everything that we are doing in the band. Rehearsals every Sunday afternoon at my house, a couple of gigs per month, we don't make money out of it, we play covers and originals and lastly, this is my band, not yours. LOL I also do most of the music writing and arranging, bookings, arranging of schedules, etc.. If you don't like those rules, there's no point in going on with it. I don't have any qualms about replacing anyone. Once you have a full band it is easier to find replacements as people tend to join bands that are already established as opposed to a band that is just forming.
> 
> Anyway, that's my experience...


You're absolutely correct. I found that it was easier to find people are willing come to an already established band.

Already scouting out some new talent. There's a group of musicians that play every Sunday afternoon down at the waterfront café right down the road from my house. Will check that out as well.

I was just envisioning having major problems finding a singer. I was just over thinking things.(as per usual) 

Let's see who I can find!


----------



## Budda

Lola said:


> He just texted me and told me he can't commit. So be it. I will find someone.


He checked out six months ago, he couldnt commit then.

Start working on singing?


----------



## Lola

Budda said:


> He checked out six months ago, he couldnt commit then.
> 
> Start working on singing?


Who, me?


----------



## bzrkrage

Lola said:


> Would you like a part? lol I can't pay you but you might like the experience that this opportunity would provide you. lol


Oh, I SO want a part as the crazy Australian with stupid hat & Les Paul!!!


Sent from my other brain.


----------



## Budda

Lola said:


> Who, me?


Yeah, you.


----------



## davetcan

Lola said:


> Who, me?


If I can do it anybody can


----------



## High/Deaf

When I applied for a technical position at a production company out here, the owner's first and biggest question was: "Are you going to fuck with my talent?" - meaning "are you going to get all techno-dweebie with the producers, directors, cameramen, etc." (my technical abilities were already confirmed via CV). That was a telling question for that situation and one I remember to this day.

That is also the question I want to ask singer if and when they join my band. If they don't play an instrument, can't book gigs like Bruce Alan or set up and tear down the PA with no assistant, I want to be assure they won't screw with the people in the band that have abilities like that. Anyone can sing (but as mentioned, not every singer is an entertainer - that is worth something too, just don't tell them that).

Don't undervalue yourself, Lola. You and your band and worth more than this 'singer' gives you credit for.


----------



## Wardo

Dump em all and go solo.


----------



## Guest

Budda said:


> Start working on singing?





Lola said:


> Who, me?





Budda said:


> Yeah, you.


Yeah, why not. Try it. You'll find out how enjoyable it is.
I mentioned this in a previous thread when the same topic was brought up.
You (and others) heard me sing at Riff Wrath's. I can't sing, but I do. Because it's fun.



Lola said:


> Would you like a part? lol I can't pay you but you might like the experience that this opportunity would provide you. lol





bzrkrage said:


> Oh, I SO want a part as the crazy Australian with stupid hat & Les Paul!!!


I'll sit in the corner with the cool hat and bug the undesirables.


----------



## Guitar101

Lola said:


> Who, me?


Check out Ken Tamplin on You Tube. He's got some free stuff. I like some of his free vocal exercises but I'm too cheap to sign up for his program.


----------



## Lola

High/Deaf said:


> When I applied for a technical position at a production company out here, the owner's first and biggest question was: "Are you going to fuck with my talent?" - meaning "are you going to get all techno-dweebie with the producers, directors, cameramen, etc." (my technical abilities were already confirmed via CV). That was a telling question for that situation and one I remember to this day.
> 
> That is also the question I want to ask singer if and when they join my band. If they don't play an instrument, can't book gigs like Bruce Alan or set up and tear down the PA with no assistant, I want to be assure they won't screw with the people in the band that have abilities like that. Anyone can sing (but as mentioned, not every singer is an entertainer - that is worth something too, just don't tell them that).
> 
> Don't undervalue yourself, Lola. You and your band and worth more than this 'singer' gives you credit for.


You know something, I have been awake most of the night trying to figure things out. My son said to me, "your singer went AWAL in September of last year" and "you knew this was going to happen". I guess I didn't want to admit this to myself. I tried to just sweep everything under the rug. What pissed me off the most was that he tried to put the onus on me. Saying shit like, "he was waiting for the band to deliver". But oh well.

I am really thinking about trying singing. Why not? I have nothing to lose. I am going to give it a shot on Friday. Have to see what I sound like, if I am comfortable multi-tasking, guitar and singing. I hear other singers at the studio singing their hearts out when they just sound god awful. If they can do it so can I. Who knows? I might be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## Lola

High/Deaf said:


> Don't undervalue yourself, Lola. You and your band and worth more than this 'singer' gives you credit for.



Thanks for those very kind words. That really makes me sit up and think. _We are_ _much worth more _then what he gave us credit for.


----------



## Adcandour

Lola said:


> _We are_ _much worth more _then what he gave us credit for.



All your bassists belong to us. You'll have to find some of those too.


----------



## Guest

Lola said:


> I am really thinking about trying singing. Why not?
> I have nothing to lose. I am going to give it a shot on Friday.


That's the spirit.


----------



## Lola

adcandour said:


> All your bassists belong to us. You'll have to find some of those too.


We have had fill ins for our bass player when he was on vacation. The bass player we have is amazing. Open minded, can just about play any song and can improvise like no ones business. He's reliable and very humble. I couldn't ask for anymore from him then that. He's so mild mannered. He's a keeper in every sense of the word.

My spirit is tenacious. I will never say die. Giving up isn't an option no matter how bad things get. I will never quit until I am in the ground.


----------



## Budda

If you are going to try singing, you are going to want to try singing songs that are pretty easy when it comes to the guitar part. Johnny Cash may not be to your taste, but that man wrote some very good play-and-sing stuff. Try the 3-chord songs that you know the melody of and go from there. I'm sure many people here will be able to help and encourage you as you work on it. 

Also, improvement comes with practice - don't expect Friday to be perfect when it's your first try, just have fun with it.


----------



## keto

What Budda said, I was just about to post that singing and playing takes some serious practice, for most people it's not something you just 'do'. I tried singing some background at a bass audition last night, and stopped right away because my playing went to hell immediately. I hadn't practiced doing both.


----------



## djmarcelca

I do both, (sometimes not successfully)
When singing and playing, you need to practice your guitar part so much you're sick of the song, you can play it by muscle memory alone, because your main thoughts are on your singing.

Most people will not notice a clunky note, but they will notice out of tune singing. 
They will also notice a missed chord. 

When I first started singing I sounded so bad, I could only sing bob dylan and neil young songs


----------



## Steadfastly

djmarcelca said:


> I do both, (sometimes not successfully)
> When singing and playing, you need to practice your guitar part so much you're sick of the song, you can play it by muscle memory alone, because your main thoughts are on your singing.
> 
> Most people will not notice a clunky note, but they will notice out of tune singing.
> They will also notice a missed chord.
> 
> When I first started singing I sounded so bad, I could only sing bob dylan and neil young songs


Well, if you could sing Neil Young songs, you can't be too bad. While Neil isn't noted for a great voice, he is very hard t copy.


And Lola, go for it. I knew a lady in Mississauga who sings in a band and even though she was a very good singer, she said it could sometimes take months to get the song right. Not that it always did but I mention this so you don't get downhearted when it takes awhile to get it right.


----------



## cheezyridr

hell you know what darren sounds like, and we let him sing anyhow! hahahahaha


----------



## Bubb

A few things that worked for me...now remember ,this was before tab/youtube/computers,I pretty much learned songs by ear..

Start with simple 3-4 chord songs with simple strumming patterns just to get used to doing both.
To remember lyrics,writing them out longhand ,pen and paper,helped them stick in my head.
If you are singing the song,the vocals take priority over any guitar part you play,let the other guitar player(s )carry the song.
Nothing really worse than fumbling through both at the same time.
Myself,depending on the song,I find it easier to learn both(vocal/guitar) parts at the same time than to try and sew them together later.

Be prepared to play it LOTS before it really come together


----------



## Jim DaddyO

Lola said:


> You know something, I have been awake most of the night trying to figure things out. My son said to me, "your singer went AWAL in September of last year" and "you knew this was going to happen". I guess I didn't want to admit this to myself. I tried to just sweep everything under the rug. What pissed me off the most was that he tried to put the onus on me. Saying shit like, "he was waiting for the band to deliver". But oh well.
> 
> I am really thinking about trying singing. Why not? I have nothing to lose. I am going to give it a shot on Friday. Have to see what I sound like, if I am comfortable multi-tasking, guitar and singing. I hear other singers at the studio singing their hearts out when they just sound god awful. If they can do it so can I. Who knows? I might be pleasantly surprised.


I would sing for you. You would hate it, but it would give you confidence in your own voice. My dad always told me I had a good voice, suitable for cooling soup......lol.

Keep your chin up.


----------



## shoretyus

Everyone has some kind of voice ..but like an instrument they need a certain skill set to A) sing a song B) last all night ( or several nights) ..or practice


----------



## Lola

Budda said:


> If you are going to try singing, you are going to want to try singing songs that are pretty easy when it comes to the guitar part. Johnny Cash may not be to your taste, but that man wrote some very good play-and-sing stuff. Try the 3-chord songs that you know the melody of and go from there. I'm sure many people here will be able to help and encourage you as you work on it.
> 
> Also, improvement comes with practice - don't expect Friday to be perfect when it's your first try, just have fun with it.


I know it's not going to be a piece of cake but I am willing to work very hard at it! Who knows? My voice maybe not bad once I get into the groove of things.


----------



## Guncho

Lola said:


> No we aren't not recording for fun. Hopefully a few paying gigs down the road from this!


Do cover bands need professional multi tracked recordings to get gigs?


----------



## Guest

Lola said:


> Who knows? My voice maybe not bad once I get into the groove of things.


As long as you have fun, who cares what others think.
I don't.


----------



## Lola

laristotle said:


> As long as you have fun, who cares what others think.
> I don't.



That's the mindset that I shall take in with me to the studio Friday night. 

but..................Larry you have a very pleasant voice. I might sound like a cat getting run over! 

All I can do is do my best and give it my all. 

I have never been one for lyrics. The music and how it made me feel were more than enough. I don't have any stage fright whatsoever. Not having any fear is to my advantage obviously. I just don't give an eff what others think of me. I will give it 100%. I think my first song up will be "What I like about you" by the Romantics. I have been walking around work all day singing this song to myself. I have this song ingrained in my muscle memory and I could play it in my sleep. It's pretty easy. Tomorrow I will try to put the lyrics and music together. I know that maybe this song might be a stretch but it gives me the fortitude to say, "I just might be able to pull it off". If I can great and if not I will just have to persevere.

Plus, if I turn out to be half decent at it then I will never have to worry about finding a singer ever. That's the best part of this new adventure. Having control over the outcome of things!

I will keep you in the loop!


----------



## djmarcelca

Guncho said:


> Do cover bands need professional multi tracked recordings to get gigs?


Not for bars that type of gig. Any live footage is preferred though. Should be good enough quality that everything can be heard clearly with out "Cell phone boom" and everyone can be seen clearly. 

Anything can be used for recording/videotaping, as long as precautions are taken. 

There's more than one tutorial on youtube about taking good videos on cellphones


----------



## High/Deaf

djmarcelca said:


> Not for bars that type of gig. Any live footage is preferred though. Should be good enough quality that everything can be heard clearly with out "Cell phone boom" and everyone can be seen clearly.
> 
> Anything can be used for recording/videotaping, as long as precautions are taken.
> 
> There's more than one tutorial on youtube about taking good videos on cellphones


There are also cameras that specialize in that kind of thing, from Zoom and others. Perhaps they can be rented? 10 or 20 bucks is a small investment to getting a few more gigs.


----------



## Lola

I forgot. I do have a Zoom H2. I just have to find it. And to think, I was actually going to give this to the singer! Sometimes s lapse in memory is good! Shame on me.


----------



## hollowbody

Guncho said:


> Do cover bands need professional multi tracked recordings to get gigs?


No, but it helps. Depends where you are in your band-life. If you're just starting out and dreaming of one day making $100/person, then anything is better than nothing and you don't need to worry about spending money to get a pro recording. But if you're trying to lure in corporate clients or wedding gigs, it's pretty much a requirement to have a polished, pro-shot video.


----------



## Guncho

hollowbody said:


> No, but it helps. Depends where you are in your band-life. If you're just starting out and dreaming of one day making $100/person, then anything is better than nothing and you don't need to worry about spending money to get a pro recording. But if you're trying to lure in corporate clients or wedding gigs, it's pretty much a requirement to have a polished, pro-shot video.


Right but as this is a cover band wouldn't the potential clients want to hear audio that was recorded live? Not studio recordings where you can do take after take or use computers to correct things?

As a client I would want to know that you can do what you say you are going to do which is entertain people live.


----------



## 4345567

__________


----------



## Guncho

Lola,

OP what kind of recording was it and how did it go?


----------



## Lola

Guncho said:


> Lola,
> 
> OP what kind of recording was it and how did it go?


It was supposed to be this Friday. It was going to be a demo of us playing to use as promotion for obtaining some paid gigs. 

Currently it has been put on the back burner. I am going to attempt the vocals myself and see how that goes!


----------



## Guncho

What kind of recording?

Multitrack in a pro studio
Live in a pro studio
Multitrack in a home studio
Live in a home studio
Live video recording?


----------



## hollowbody

Guncho said:


> Right but as this is a cover band wouldn't the potential clients want to hear audio that was recorded live? Not studio recordings where you can do take after take or use computers to correct things?
> 
> As a client I would want to know that you can do what you say you are going to do which is entertain people live.





nkjanssen said:


> Exactly what I was thinking. As a promoter, if you handed me a pro studio recording of you playing cover songs, I'd assume it was edited, overdubbed and possibly that you had even hired other people to play it. A live video, on the other hand, would be far more useful to me, even if it wasn't pro quality (_especially_ if it wasn't pro quality, in fact).


Depends what you're trying to do. A pro-shot video can still be "live" insofar as you record off the floor and just do some mixing without overdubs. Will people believe that? Will they care?

When I book venues, they definitely appreciate seeing our shaky cam footage where the crowd is going nuts, but when you're talking corporate gigs, wedding, etc, they don't care about that so much as they care about polish. So again, it depends at what stage in game you're at and what you're trying to do with it.






This is my band playing a show to a packed house. Sounds pretty bad, but looks great for venues who wanna see what we can do in their room.






This is a promo vid for a Toronto wedding band that seems to be pretty successful. This video is definitely next-level compared to my iPhone vid. I think it's a little silly to imagine that all these people got together and spent the time and resources to shoot this video, but then can't deliver the goods on-stage.


----------



## hollowbody

Lola said:


> It was supposed to be this Friday. It was going to be a demo of us playing to use as promotion for obtaining some paid gigs.
> 
> Currently it has been put on the back burner. I am going to attempt the vocals myself and see how that goes!


I'd suggest recording little snippets for things like Instagram, etc.

Most people don't watch a full video. It's very rare. If you can keep them watching for 30 seconds, you've done a good job. So it might be better for you to record some clips instead to post, and that's probably much easier for you, too! You'll also get more traction on a handful of short videos than one long one!


----------



## Lola

hollowbody said:


> I'd suggest recording little snippets for things like Instagram, etc.
> 
> Most people don't watch a full video. It's very rare. If you can keep them watching for 30 seconds, you've done a good job. So it might be better for you to record some clips instead to post, and that's probably much easier for you, too! You'll also get more traction on a handful of short videos than one long one!


Wow, I watched some of the videos. What an awesome band!

It seems that everyone now a days has a short attention span. I will keep your advice in mind. Thanks


----------



## 4345567

__________


----------



## Guest

It was mentioned earlier (was it you Lola?) about having a private gathering 
at your studio so that one of your members can get a feel for playing live?
Do that and set up a camera on a tripod in the corner.


----------



## hollowbody

nkjanssen said:


> But a studio recording without video?


I had assumed there was video to accompany. I agree - audio alone is pointless.


----------



## Lola

I did not give up the ship. I found another singer. In his early 40's and loves classic rock. Wish us luck! 

I can hardly wait. Guess I will not being singing after all. I am going to try one song though. I just have to. I am so curious as to what I sound like. 

I know all the lyrics by heart to Some kind of wonderful by Grand Funk Railroad. It's an awesome song.


----------



## Budda

Learn to sing anyway, because next time someone bails you will be ready.


----------



## Lola

Budda said:


> Learn to sing anyway, because next time someone bails you will be ready.


But can you learn to have a decent voice even though you sound like a cat getting ran over?

I will for sure! It allows me more control over what happens to our band! 

I booked the studio one hour earlier, before everyone arrives just for that sole purpose of giving it a try. I will record myself as well.


----------



## Guest

Lola said:


> But can you learn to have a decent voice even though you sound like a cat getting ran over?


That's what critics used to say about Geddy Lee and Bon Scott.


----------



## Lola

laristotle said:


> That's what critics used to say about Geddy Lee and Bon Scott.


I don't really like Geddy's voice. It's not my cuppa but try to argue that with a die hard fan. 

I like this guys vocals a lot and still do. Mark is amazing!


----------



## hollowbody

Lola said:


> But can you learn to have a decent voice even though you sound like a cat getting ran over?
> 
> I will for sure! It allows me more control over what happens to our band!
> 
> I booked the studio one hour earlier, before everyone arrives just for that sole purpose of giving it a try. I will record myself as well.


My voice isn't much to write home about, but it's useful to learn to control it and hit notes. Even if you don't end up singing lead on anything, you can throw in some backups. Even a unison backup helps sometimes, but if you can learn to sing harmony, that's even better! Give it a shot!


----------



## Lola

Ta da! I sang tonight and was pleasantly surprised! I sang in key! No one complained. I was in the zone to sing! I wasn't at all nervous! It was a friggin' blast!

I sang Some kind of wonderful by Grand Funk Railroad! I had so much fun singing this! I couldn't play and sing at the same time though! I could sometimes and then I would lose it! I had fun and that's all that matters. We finished at 10 tonight but I didn't get picked up until 11. I asked the studio manager if there were any available studios open after everyone left. I got another studio where the band had just finished playing. I stayed for another hour until 11. I played "What I like about you" and a few others. The Romantics song is awesome. It's quick and it's fun. 

St. Patty's day downtown! The bars were packed. There were people sitting at outdoor cafes drinking green beer. Too damned cold for me!


----------



## bigboki

Lola said:


> Ta da! I sang tonight and was pleasantly surprised! I sang in key! No one complained. I was in the zone to sing! I wasn't at all nervous! It was a friggin' blast!
> 
> I sang Some kind of wonderful! I had so much fun singing! I couldn't play and sing at the same time though! I could sometimes and then I would lose it! I had fun and that's all that matters. St. Patty's day downtown! The bars were packed. There were people sitting at outdoor cafes drinking green beer. Too damned cold for me!


Great job Lola!!! Now - just keep practicing and have fun


----------



## Lola

bigboki said:


> Great job Lola!!! Now - just keep practicing and have fun


Thanks so much Bigboki!


----------



## Steadfastly

Lola said:


> Ta da! I sang tonight and was pleasantly surprised! I sang in key! No one complained. I was in the zone to sing! I wasn't at all nervous!


Congratulations. The first on is under your belt, with many more to come.


----------



## Budda

See, you can do it! Keep practicing!


----------



## Lola

I am glad the other singer is no longer. Why did I think the world had ended when he said he was leaving?

Why do we put ourselves in such a state! This always happens except for when the other female singer quit. She was devil in disguise. Nice to your face and stab you in the back when you weren't looking. That shit I will not be subjected to.

But let's face it, I will never be a singer. I guess I could if I focused on it but I would rather play guitar. It just gives me more confidence know that I can sing if I have to. I just had a really hard time hitting those lower register notes. I think I would classify myself as a hack soprano. lol


----------



## High/Deaf

Lola said:


> hack soprano. lol


----------



## Lola

High/Deaf said:


>


Sopranos! Loved that series!


----------



## Lola

It never rains but it pours! I put a few adds on Kijij and wham I have gotten a couple of good responses! It wasn't as hard as I presumed it would be! Induced such a sense of panic in myself! Have to lighten up and not get so stressed.

We're rocking again! I am so happy!

You ppl are very wise and I am such a newb at this. Your experiences speak volumes to me. Thank you everyone! I could get really girly here but I won't lol


----------



## Ti-Ron

Glad to hear that everything is going great!


----------



## Lola

Ti-Ron said:


> Glad to hear that everything is going great!


Thank you kindly for your wonderful msg!

Just when you think it can't get any worse and then things suddenly turn around in your favour! 

I just couldn't give up on myself and my fellow band mates that have stuck with me through the adversities of band crap!


----------



## hollowbody

Lola said:


> Thank you kindly for your wonderful msg!
> 
> Just when you think it can't get any worse and then things suddenly turn around in your favour!
> 
> I just couldn't give up on myself and my fellow band mates that have stuck with me through the adversities of band crap!


Just keep pushing, Lola. Keep working at it and it'll work out. Someone has to drive the bus and if you're so passionate about it, it might as well be you.

I'm about to celebrate 10 years of being in the same band. Not a single one of the OG members are still with me but, as an institution, the band has been around and playing gigs for 10 years. I thought it would blow up so many times and we lost key members over and over again, but replacements were found and we kept plugging away.


----------



## High/Deaf

hollowbody said:


> Just keep pushing, Lola. Keep working at it and it'll work out. Someone has to drive the bus and if you're so passionate about it, it might as well be you.
> 
> I'm about to celebrate 10 years of being in the same band. Not a single one of the OG members are still with me but, as an institution, the band has been around and playing gigs for 10 years. I thought it would blow up so many times and we lost key members over and over again, but replacements were found and we kept plugging away.


You're setting up some bad jokes (and of course _I'll_ go there......). Like how resilient Molly's Chamber has been. Or how much of the ol' in-n-out it's seen. Sorry, just can't resist.


----------



## Budda

Day 45: still no bassist. Keep rolling!


----------



## Lola

It's a matter of finding the right people though. One prospective has said no to classic rock and wants to play Rockabilly. No way Hose. I just found this out via email and after I gave him our set list. Everyone has a voice and I will listen but NO Rockabilly. The other band members can call the shots to a certain extent but they're
not changing my entire vision for the future. 



Budda said:


> Day 45: still no bassist. Keep rolling!


I didn't know this. Why did your bass player leave? Tell me to mind my own beeswax if you want to.


----------



## Lola

Is it appropriate to have a couple auditions back to back in one session? I don't want to lose any prospective players because of a time lag.


----------



## Lola

This is such an appropriate song!


----------



## Steadfastly

Lola said:


> Is it appropriate to have a couple auditions back to back in one session? I don't want to lose any prospective players because of a time lag.


Why not? They all know they are auditioning and if they think they are the only one, they are missing some brain cells and you don't want that kind of person in our band.


----------



## Guncho

I still don't understand what kind of band this is. Couple of people who get together and jam? Working cover band?


----------



## Lola

Guncho said:


> I still don't understand what kind of band this is. Couple of people who get together and jam? Working cover band?


We want to be a working cover band. We have lost 4 band members in a matter of a year in a bit. 2 steps forward, 4 steps backwards. You lose a lot of ground this way.


----------



## Lola

So I have set up auditions back to back for next Friday night. I would of done it tonight but I am reeling from a crappy cold. This is another band that I am trying to get off the ground.


----------



## Lola

I really lucked out. Not only can this singer sing but he also plays keyboards. He sent me a sample of his singing. I love what I am hearing. He's got ultra vibrato. I want a horn section now! Seriously would love a sax player. 

The world is my oyster!


----------



## djmarcelca

Lola said:


> I really lucked out. Not only can this singer sing but he also plays keyboards. He sent me a sample of his singing. I love what I am hearing. He's got ultra vibrato. I want a horn section now! Seriously would love a sax player.
> 
> The world is my oyster!


If he plays KEY-TAR keep him


----------



## Lola

djmarcelca said:


> If he plays KEY-TAR keep him


I don't know if he does play a Key-Tar. Doesn't really matter though. I really like this guy so far. 

and.................

he's mature and married with grown up children. No hindrances. YEAH!


----------



## davetcan

Lola said:


> I don't know if he does play a Key-Tar. Doesn't really matter though. I really like this guy so far.
> 
> and.................
> 
> he's mature and married with grown up children. No hindrances. YEAH!


Given the short history of this band so far you may have a bit of a problem with the "mature" bit. I'm just sayin'


----------



## Lola

davetcan said:


> Given the short history of this band so far you may have a bit of a problem with the "mature" bit. I'm just sayin'


Dave can you expound on your statement pls.

"Mature" people tend to be more stable.


----------



## hollowbody

Lola said:


> Is it appropriate to have a couple auditions back to back in one session? I don't want to lose any prospective players because of a time lag.


I find this is the best way. Everything is fresh in your mind and you can quickly compare. Plus, make sure YOU choose what they play so that you are comparing apples to apples when you're thinking about who the best fit is.


----------



## davetcan

Lola said:


> Dave can you expound on your statement pls.
> 
> "Mature" people tend to be more stable.


LOL, I'm talking about the problems you've had with the rest of the band. I'm sure they were all "mature".


----------



## Lola

davetcan said:


> LOL, I'm talking about the problems you've had with the rest of the band. I'm sure they were all "mature".


Sorry I didn't really understand what you were talking about. Now I do. Thanks for the clarification!


----------

