# What are houses worth where you live?



## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

if you’re a millionaire in Ottawa you can buy a real nice townhouse. My place is currently worth way way more than what I paid for it, and I’m tempted to use the opportunity to move back to bc...but I probably won’t because work is too good here. Ever think about moving somewhere cheap to retire? If you did/do where is that place?

& finally, what’s the average price for a moderately big house and yard in your locale?


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

1 parking space goes for 1 mil here


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

*average* house in ottawa goes for 725K .. condos 350-400K .... all went up 25% in 1 year.

move to BC and you need to double that to buy a shack., triple if you want a house.

house on my side of the street = 350K with a good sized yard
house on the water front are worth 750K and up ( small lot )


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

That’s crazy. At least Quebec is cheap


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

BTW ... ain't planning to move anytime soon 
everything is paid for and I don't want to start over in the rat race.




mike_oxbig said:


> That’s crazy. At least Quebec is cheap


yeh , it's cheap till you factor in the HIGHER provincial taxes and being treated as a second class citizen all the time.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

oldjoat said:


> *average* house in ottawa goes for 725K .. condos 350-400K .... all went up 25% in 1 year.
> 
> move to BC and you need to double that to buy a shack., triple if you want a house.
> 
> ...


depends where in BC, the lower mainland, yea big money. some places around the resorts sure. the rest of BC is hillbilly wasteland, they'll pay you to move there towns are dying


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

and that cheap house in quebec for 225K today will still be only worth 225K in 10 years from now.


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## Foxycats (Dec 31, 2020)

I've always looked at moving to maui and living in a yurt as a retirement goal.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

vadsy said:


> rest of BC is hillbilly wasteland, they'll pay you to move there towns are dying


true words ! but who wants to live in the woods so far that the FM reception fades when the sun gets blocked by clouds ...


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

vadsy said:


> depends where in BC, the lower mainland, yea big money. some places around the resorts sure. the rest of BC is hillbilly wasteland, they'll pay you to move there towns are dying


i feel like somewhere 100 miles north of Prince George my million dollars would buy a mountain with its own dragon


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

mike_oxbig said:


> i feel like somewhere 100 miles north of Prince George my million dollars would buy a mountain with its own dragon


next to a goat meth farm


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## jfk911 (May 23, 2008)

im in Ottawa, bought a semi 10 years ago as my first house for $230K, house down the street just sold for $700K. I live a 1km walk from a soon to be LRT station and my realtor told me it could go up another 75k once its complete. So ill sell then and move out to the country.


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

Mum & Dad bought their first place for £1900 (before decimal currency) in a spot they could afford, that nobody else wanted to live in .....the other day a little man in a suit said the land was big enough to subdivide, would they be interested in selling the other plot.... starting bid at $1.2m.....


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

hope the folks take the money and RUN !!!! laughing all the way to the bank.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

About 3000$ per acre in fort St. John lol. Sure maybe a Little chilly when it’s not on fire, but With Starlink you can set up shop anywhere really


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Even Chilliwack or further out in the valley arent _that_ bad, certainly cheaper than here. Edmonton, nice middle class quiet neighbourhood, $5-600K gets you lots of house here, out in the burbs.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

A small bungalow across the street from me just listed for $810,000. I think that's too high, but we'll see what happens.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Try finding someplace else that's cheaper though! The country properties went up 50% last year. A townhouse in Ottawa might buy you a 3 bedroom on a half acre outside of Smiths Falls now. Maybe.
Maybe northern ON is still reasonable, or parts of the maritimes.

But I don't get the $750k townhouse in Ottawa. I just don't. And that's in the suburbs..where I live. I can't see it being sustainable unless interest rates stay near 1 to 2 percent for a long time. But if those rates go back to 4%, some people's house payments will up go 50% or more.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

tomee2 said:


> Try finding someplace else that's cheaper though! The country properties went up 50% last year. A townhouse in Ottawa might buy you a 3 bedroom on a half acre outside of Smiths Falls now. Maybe.
> Maybe northern ON is still reasonable, or parts of the maritimes.
> 
> But I don't get the $750k townhouse in Ottawa. I just don't. And that's in the suburbs..where I live. I can't see it being sustainable unless interest rates stay near 1 to 2 percent for a long time. But if those rates go back to 4%, some people's house payments will up go 50% or more.


a place in renfrew just sold for a million over asking. Renfrew. All the abandoned buildings in that town and someone double paid for one that’s been dusted. Idgi


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

mike_oxbig said:


> a place in renfrew just sold for a million over asking. Renfrew. All the abandoned buildings in that town and someone double paid for one that’s been dusted. Idgi


My wife told me about that... she thought there was 20 acres and a bunch of buildings, but to go that far over asking is nuts.

So, housing bubble? Will there be a slow release and hold within 2 years, or a total fall by 25% over a short time a year from now? 

BTW, I paid $38 for one 8ft 2x6 cedar deck board yesterday. 1 board. 8ft not 16.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

I’m an hour north of Vancouver in Squamish. April MLS average house is 1.1 million. Tear downs are 750,000. Little better east of Vancouver in the Fraser Valley but anything within two hours from Vancouver is crazy.


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## Stephenlouis (Jun 24, 2019)

. My next-door neighbour sold for 830 000. I hope to end up on a gulf Island or farther up Island around Strathcona or even Kelsey bay houses are about 2/3 of what we get here. Vancouver Island really does not have a cheap place to live anymore, and the mainland is worse.


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## Stephenlouis (Jun 24, 2019)

mike_oxbig said:


> a place in renfrew just sold for a million over asking. Renfrew. All the abandoned buildings in that town and someone double paid for one that’s been dusted. Idgi


Seriously? That is nuts, there is no infrastructure there, everything is patchwork, I have friends who live there, high property tax and the whole town( old logging town) needs new plumbing... I like it out there, go often, but even when it was cheap the property taxes were a deal-breaker.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

tomee2 said:


> My wife told me about that... she thought there was 20 acres and a bunch of buildings, but to go that far over asking is nuts.
> 
> So, housing bubble? Will there be a slow release and hold within 2 years, or a total fall by 25% over a short time a year from now?
> 
> BTW, I paid $38 for one 8ft 2x6 cedar deck board yesterday. 1 board. 8ft not 16.











I built this over the winter, paid about 16 grand in December. Would have been well over 30 today


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

vadsy said:


> depends where in BC, the lower mainland, yea big money. some places around the resorts sure. the rest of BC is hillbilly wasteland, they'll pay you to move there towns are dying


That's funny.


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## DavidP (Mar 7, 2006)

I am greater Vancouver, and the price of any kind of housing appears to be increasing daily... Multiple Offers well above asking price — crazy! Yeah,a sellers market but where can you move to in SW BC that’s not the same...


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## MetalTele79 (Jul 20, 2020)

I shoebox of a bungalow 3 houses over just went for 870k. It's consistently crazy.

I don't know how to post this video from Reddit but it's pretty interesting.

r/dataisbeautiful - [OC] Where have house prices risen the most since 2000?


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

New lots here in the Ridge are $800k. Oh and maybe 4000 ft2 with zero parking.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

Bloomberg has been saying that the Canadian housing market is going to do what the US stock market did in 2008.

multiplied by 17.
Cash in on your properties now while investors are guzzling.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

1.5mil.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Always12AM said:


> Cash in on your properties now while investors are guzzling.


Except you still need a place to live.


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## crann (May 10, 2014)

The average London ON house is now about 600k. I was lucky to buy my current place for about that on a big ravine lot with a walkout basement about 3 years ago. The builder is selling the same models on normal lots for ~1 mil. But I don't really consider that in any financial decision making and I'm a long time away from retiring.


Always12AM said:


> Bloomberg has been saying that the Canadian housing market is going to do what the US stock market did in 2008.
> multiplied by 17.


Possible, but I highly doubt it. Bubbles don't tend to occur in the same way so quickly. Banks (hopefully) learned a lot from 2008 and Canada isn't giving away loans to everyone and their dog like the US was. Once interest rates start to tick up, it will be very slowly.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

A relative recently sold their 1960's bungalow in St. Catherines for a little north of $1 million.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

LanceT said:


> Except you still need a place to live.


I wonder if rv and motorhome sales are on the rise?


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Does anyone remember the housing market crash around 88 to 1990? In Toronto house values dropped a little bit then were stagnant until about 2000. In Edmonton, I worked with people whose homes weren't worth what they paid in the mid 80s until the late 90s. 
That could happen again.


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I paid 270 for mine 6 years ago. 2 doors down just sold for 700+ Prices are a bit ridiculous in Hamilton


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

House across the street just sold for $1.16M. I'd love to cash in, wife will have none of it though. 

My son and a friend are paying $1,600/month for a shithole apartment the next town over. May as well have the money go towards some sort of equity. 

Just hope the bottom doesn't fall out.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

butterknucket said:


> I wonder if rv and motorhome sales are on the rise?


Prices on RVs have definitely gone up plus like some other things currently, used ones are commanding a premium depending on make, etc.


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## johnnyshaka (Nov 2, 2014)

I read an article a few months ago that suggested that in some parts of the country real estate has been a terrible investment over the last 10 years. For example, had you bought a house in Alberta 10 years ago you would not be any better off today and would likely lose money if you had to sell tomorrow. Sure, you have a roof over your head and some equity built up, although most of your mortgage payments are going towards interest during the early years, so you likely wouldn't have as much cash in your pocket as you would expect.

Instead of buying you could have rented a comparable house for a similar monthly payment (rent vs. mortgage) and invested what you would have spent on property taxes, house insurance and regular maintenance costs and come out ahead of the guy you were renting from.

The premise being that the housing market in some areas has been flat, at best, over the last ten years while the stock market has performed better than expected year after year during the same period. So, after 10 years the renter may not have a house of his own but certainly would have a nice nest egg to buy a place should he want to or he could continue renting and adding to his nest egg.

Obviously hindsight is 20/20 and not all areas of the country have performed like Alberta has but "paying somebody else's mortgage" isn't always a bad idea especially if you are disciplined enough to invest the difference.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

LanceT said:


> Except you still need a place to live.


If I owned a 250k house that was selling for 1 million dollars right now, I’d be tempted to sell it and rent a penthouse until the correction occurs.

Wether it be interest rate hikes, economic down turns or just plain old reality catching up with investors that nobody is going to rent a basement in shit hole Canadian towns for $2350.

I don’t own yet, but by the time I’m making an above average salary, all of the people that I know who are exploiting the pandemic and over leveraging themselves will be defaulting on their mortgages and entering consumer proposals.

I totally understand someone wanting to stay put and ignore the current craze. Which is exactly what ill do in 15-25 years when this happens again.

I have no interest in gas lighting the economy to a point where my future children will have to live in my house until they are 37.

If I make money off of something I want it to be from my own sweat equity. If there’s one thing I would not be doing right now, it’s taking on a 1 million dollar mortgage for anything that doesn’t come with an Olympic sized tennis court over looking an ocean.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

crann said:


> The average London ON house is now about 600k. I was lucky to buy my current place for about that on a big ravine lot with a walkout basement about 3 years ago. The builder is selling the same models on normal lots for ~1 mil. But I don't really consider that in any financial decision making and I'm a long time away from retiring.
> 
> Possible, but I highly doubt it. Bubbles don't tend to occur in the same way so quickly. Banks (hopefully) learned a lot from 2008 and Canada isn't giving away loans to everyone and their dog like the US was. Once interest rates start to tick up, it will be very slowly.


Honestly, I hope that things don’t crash.
Because as much as I’d benefit from it tremendously, that’s not how I want to get ahead.

I do however hope that our government makes an effort to invest in young families and create a means for hard working young people and students to enter the market and start families rather than importing people who have no vested interest in any of the communities they are buying wholesale.

I love diversity and I am happy to be in a place that welcomes it, but there has to be a limit as to how much foreign investors and wealthy new comers and capitalize off of our economy.

The escape velocity needed for young people in debt is making it really hard to justify even trying.

Hopefully a reasonable down the middle solution comes forth. But everything I’ve read points towards a pretty steep decline in the residential housing market.

Too many properties are being built and too many boomers are looking to downsize and too many hot shot investors are over leveraged for the supply not to sky rocket in coming years. That alone will be a big hurdle for people who just paid a million dollars for a 30 day build.


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

The economic carnage that could happen here in Victoria may easily be colossal if interest rates go up at all. It has gone speculator stupid out here with a mean average of 1.2 million. If you earn less than 60 grand a year it is hard to even pay rent for a two bedroom apartment and support a child. The average small one bedroom is 1500 to 2000 per month. On top of that we have the highest homeless population anywhere in Canada. The bush within driving distance of Victoria is starting to fill up with people temporarily living in old broken down RVs trying desperately to find a place to live in the greater Victoria area. 

On the lower mainland desperate people are squatting in RVs out the Coquihalla river up highway 5 outside Hope. To pay the mortgages most newly flipped million dollar plus 2000 sq ft up and down houses have four or five tenants or borders. In the less expensive areas where houses are on average 1 million: if you drive the back streets it looks like blocks and blocks of used car sales lots with cars parked on top of cars. Houses that were 400 thousand a few short years ago are going for 1.5 million. Even a two bedroom 1000 sq ft 'dozer bait dump can be close to a million if on a 6000 to 8000 sq ft standard size lot. In the prime areas 4 to 5 thousand foot hill side "ocean view" Oak Bay lots go for up to 3 million even if the house on them is crap. 

We are at the same point Japan reached when an idiotic hog wild speculation boom caused their economy to come crashing down on them in the early 1990's. 

If the West Coast does not suffer the "big one" then we will bring one on ourselves with what we are doing economically with greed and moronic real estate speculation run amok here on Vancouver Island. 

This is nothing new. When Alberta has an oil bust then it seems that BC gets whacked, every high paid desk jockey with more money than brains moves here until the economy picks up and they can make the big bucks again sitting in a chair somewhere in Alberta. Hell the red neck leaning welfare officials in Calgary and Edmonton at one time even paid for bus tickets to Vancouver and Vancouver Island so that they could reduce their welfare rolls during oil busts. As the rest of Canada ignores the indigent, BC puts the bill and I guess this is what makes us different out here in lotus land few of us complain if we get taxed to death because of how our boom and bust economy works.

Our economic system out here in lotus land is one of faith, hope and charity. First you have faith in the high paying job you get in some booming part of Alberta or BC then when that fails you have to go through Hope before you wind up in the lower mainland and van isle: where you will need charity to get on your feet again.


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

I'm now in Gananoque but the housing market in nearby Kingston is bonkers. The most recent year-over-year increase was *36.7%*. Places are selling within _hours_ of being listed and typically at 10-20% over the asking price. Agents report they now tell buyers that offers with any conditions, _including inspection_, don't stand a chance. We're seeing that same market frenzy creep into Gan but we're comfortable staying right where we are.


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## Fred Gifford (Sep 2, 2019)

tomee2 said:


> Does anyone remember the housing market crash around 88 to 1990? In Toronto house values dropped a little bit then were stagnant until about 2000. In Edmonton, I worked with people whose homes weren't worth what they paid in the mid 80s until the late 90s.
> That could happen again.


I remember the crash in 1989 to '92 . .. we went to one of these Condo "previews" where the presenter told us and I quote " you had better buy today because if you come back a week from now the price will be 10 grand higher !!!" I looked at my wife, we stood up and walked out of the room .. these were the same Units that people purchased for 130K and when completed had dropped to 65K ... unable to get financing all the buyers walked away and lost their 40K deposits, and in 1989 40K was a lot of money


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## numb41 (Jul 13, 2009)

With the mass migration of Ontarians to NS, the houses are now going over asking. A house listed for 550k in my neighbourhood went for 70k ABOVE asking. All conditions are being waived, houses being bought essentially sight unseen. 
I’ll have to find somewhere else to live when this becomes little Toronto.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

The ladies on the 6:00 PM news said that the average price of a single family dwelling in Waterloo, Ontario is more than $900,000.

I've heard condemned crack houses in Vancouver go for more than that.

In 1995 I paid $85,000. for mine.

I could sell it now for five or six times that amount.


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## Brian Johnston (Feb 24, 2019)

Sudbury... one half a duplex in rough condition and a frigged up roof (needs replacing) went for nearly 300k. Something decent is closer to 500k. I work with a real estate agent and she can't believe the market... not many homes, but when they come up, they are gone in a bidding war. What's happening is that people are now working from home, and so... people in Toronto (with cash) are moving up here and buying a crap box at a high price, which is far better than the cost of living down there.


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## 10409 (Dec 11, 2011)

crann said:


> The average London ON house is now about 600k. I was lucky to buy my current place for about that on a big ravine lot with a walkout basement about 3 years ago. The builder is selling the same models on normal lots for ~1 mil. But I don't really consider that in any financial decision making and I'm a long time away from retiring.
> 
> Possible, but I highly doubt it. Bubbles don't tend to occur in the same way so quickly. Banks (hopefully) learned a lot from 2008 and Canada isn't giving away loans to everyone and their dog like the US was. Once interest rates start to tick up, it will be very slowly.


what on earth are you talking about, every small business was given between 60 and 100k in loans and subsidies last year. I literally went on a mission to spend all my monies because I saw this coming.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

So much has changed, and will continue to change regarding work life, environmental policy, how we buy our products and live life. The home is where many of us will continue to work long after the pandemic subsides. There may be a levelling out of property values coming but I see no "crash" on the horizon. I live in central Ottawa. My home is paid off and I could sell it but, where would I go? My business is in my home. 
Anyhow, your home got a whole lot more important over the last year and that importance will not change and therefore nor will its value.


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## crann (May 10, 2014)

mike_oxbig said:


> what on earth are you talking about, every small business was given between 60 and 100k in loans and subsidies last year. I literally went on a mission to spend all my monies because I saw this coming.


What on Earth are you talking about? We were talking about the 2008 "Great Recession" driven largely by residential mortgage which tend to decrease market liquidity. You've mentioned small business loans which increase liquidity. Maybe something very obvious I'm missing.


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## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

oldjoat said:


> and that cheap house in quebec for 225K today will still be only worth 225K in 10 years from now.





oldjoat said:


> ...and being treated as a second class citizen all the time.


By acting as such, no big surprise.

It always saddens me when someone needs to bash someone else to make themselves feel good.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The typical selling price of homes like ours in our neighbourhood is about 3x what we paid in 2002. Some friends down the street have put their house on the market this week, and it's listed for $750k or thereabouts. This was planned for a while, though, and the timing was simply fortuitous. He suffered a serious head injury last year and the stairs (2-storey with a basement) are proving to be a source of continuing risk. However, they own two rental properties, one of them a condo in a nice area, so they have somewhere to move to and have, I think, already cleared out to leave the house in "stageable condition".

We planted a honeycrisp apple tree last fall, and I ain't leaving this place until I get apples out of the damn thing. While I'm not itching to move, one of the spin-offs of the current price boom that I worry about is municipal taxes as more homes get evaluated at outrageous values. You have to wonder a) just who is getting cleared for almost-a-million mortgages, and b) whether they'll be able to sustain the kinds of income required to make those payments AND city taxes.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

The issue isnt being able to afford a $1500 mortgage so much as it is the stress test that denies you getting that $1500 mortgage.

We closed in December and our house is up $100k in value.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

So THAT's how you could afford that Nik Huber?! (nyuk, nyuk)


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

mhammer said:


> So THAT's how you could afford that Nik Huber?! (nyuk, nyuk)


Well we didnt sell


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## GuitarT (Nov 23, 2010)

I'm in Kitchener and it's out of control. We paid $142,000 for our house in 2001 and would have no problem getting $650,000 to $700,000 for it now. Bidding wars are the norm and houses are typically selling $100,000 - $150,000 over asking price. There was and article in our local paper about two months ago profiling a first time buyer. It was a 28 year old woman looking to buy her first house. A semi came up at $500,000 and she was prepared to go as high as $600,000. there were 58 offers on it and it went for $801,000. The younger generation around here is screwed when it comes to the dream of home ownership. My son's only hope is that he's an only child and sole heir to our "fortunes".


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Budda said:


> The issue isnt being able to afford a $1500 mortgage so much as it is the stress test that denies you getting that $1500 mortgage.
> 
> We closed in December and our house is up $100k in value.


The thing is, it's only real if you decide to exit the market.

There's not much meaning in turning your life upside down and selling your house for a perceived profit when you only have to turn around and spend similar amount on your next house.

If I was going to move into an apartment and never have to buy again, great.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Milkman said:


> The thing is, it's only real if you decide to exit the market.
> 
> There's not much meaning in turning your life upside down and selling your house for a perceived profit when you only have to turn around and spend similar amount on your next house.
> 
> If I was going to move into an apartment and never have to buy again, great.


The profit vs what you paid, you mean? 100%.

The people who bought a nice starter at $200k in 2015 cant afford the 3bdrm 2 bath with a yard now, because thats a $900k home and wages didnt magically match the boom (to no one's surprise).

Basically, most people who want or are close to needing to move into a bigger home are priced out regardless of the fact their current home has also skyrocketed in value. It sucks and IMHO it's not a good thing. 

Im curious to know how many people buying at 80k+ over asking are now house-poor for the forseeable future.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Budda said:


> The profit vs what you paid, you mean? 100%.
> 
> The people who bought a nice starter at $200k in 2015 cant afford the 3bdrm 2 bath with a yard now, because thats a $900k home and wages didnt magically match the boom (to no one's surprise).
> 
> ...


Well, we never needed to move to a bigger home. When we bought our place we already had all of the kids. The population has only declined around here. The house is bigger. No need to move.

House poor?

Sorry, not following you.


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

I am out in the Chilliwack area, purchased our property in 84' after the big real estate crash. 3/4 acre with a smaller home and have slowly reno'd thru the years into what we consider our retirement home.

Back then interests rates had just dropped to 13% from almost 20% ( yes those were the rates back then) so it was time to buy.

Currently $600K might get you a descent townhouse in chilliwack, a stand alone home on a lot is $800 K and up. Prices have sky rocketed in chilliwack over the past year. So many people are selling their homes in the denser city areas ( Surrey / Burnaby / Vancouver) and moving out here.
If you look at a real estate paper of homes in chilliwack, current sales are generally $100K over asking price and sell very quickly.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

It's funny, you know. When the lockdowns started happening, and people were either getting laid off or their businesses floundering as revenues dropped, one *might* have expected that folks would be selling and moving to a rental so as to make ends meet. But the opposite happened -buyer demand created a seller's market. One might point a finger at federal efforts to stabilize the economy with CERB and such, but I can't see that being wholly responsible. We do know that the stock market experience growth. Are shareholders the ones with the confidence to pursue over-asking-price?

I'll add that rocketing house prices are not restricted to Canada. I've seen reports of prices shooting up in European nations as well.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

It's Canada, USA, iirc New Zealand and the EU.

@Milkman house-poor - nearly all your income goes to your mortgage.


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

and what goes up must come down..

In 1979 my parents sold their 5 acre parcel for $189K in the chilliwack area, they had purchased for $11K in 64'
I was 19 years old then and already watching the housing market. Over the next 5 years prices stalled and dropped with interest rates staying close to 20%. Then in 84' prices basically collapsed, I had young friends that were alomost millionares back then with there property purchases going back to high debt with all land value lost and zero equity, only high bank payments.

The property I bought had dropped to almost half its value when I purchased in 84' so it was time to buy then.

To me this current buying frenzy seems to be playing out in a similar manner. These low interest rates are not here to stay and even an increase of 1% will be catastrophic for many new home buyers


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Budda said:


> It's Canada, USA, iirc New Zealand and the EU.
> 
> @Milkman house-poor - nearly all your income goes to your mortgage.



Ok, so that would only be an issue if you were always trying to move up to larger or more desirable properties then.

Yes, that would be a drag.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

The same house as ours, four doors up the street was just listed for $1.1 million. About 18 months ago the second house on our side of the street listed for $100K more.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

I know a guy who recently started working for a shipping crate modular home company. I hear they're doing well.


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## SWLABR (Nov 7, 2017)

I have no idea what the "market value" is. I'm fairly rural, but our internet is OK, so the houses on our road have climbed steadily over the last year. A couple years ago, when our (then) new neighbors moved in, they bought for high $500's. We're in a smaller square-footage house, but a bigger property (w/pool). I would guess ours would be similar, back then. 
Now?? No clue. 
We won't/can't move cause, where ya gonna go?? If you sell, you almost always have to buy. And I ain't buying a tiny townhouse for $700!


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)




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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Low $300K's for a 1000 sq.ft bungalow. $400K to $650K for the newer stuff up to 2500 sq.ft. Condos are under $200K


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

These type of comparisons are always difficult because house prices in say, Winnipeg or Regina historically always have been a fraction of places like the GTA or Lower Mainland BC. But, keep in mind that incomes have also historically matched this regional difference in cost of living. I've worked for companies that have had regional pay scales (worker in TO makes more than someone in Winnipeg doing the same job).

I bought my under 1000sf home in the late 00's for $185K. That was considered absurdly high at the time. I found out later that it had changed hands in 2003 for $130K. In the 1990's this house was probably worth maybe $80K. Currently it's assessed at over $300K. I could probably list it for 350. Everything here in Winnipeg under $500K has been going in mere days and usually for $50K over asking.

I remember in the 90's a house over $100K was a _NICE HOUSE_. That meant your family was doing pretty well.

I think a lot of the current price craziness is a couple of factors coming together:
1. Low rates.
2. Low supply (there's fewer sellers due to covid)
3. Migration. Due to the economic situation in Alberta, there's a lot of people who went there a decade or so ago who are now moving back to their former hometowns. My neighbor's son just moved back. He's an electrician and got laid off and tried for a year to find work and couldn't get anything. For those who went there years ago and bought homes, they've got some extra cash due to the equity gained. I think that's why you're seeing markets like Halifax go bananas.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I think our last assessment was something like three times what we paid for the place 28 years ago, but prices have gone crazy in this little burg and I'm led to understand we could put it on the market for 4 or 5 times that initial $83 grand. There aren't many properties for sale, though there's a large development started on the south end of town. A run of the mill suburban style single family dwelling will run you 3 to 6 hundred grand, give or take. I want to sell, move way up north somewhere and remove myself from this madness but the bride wants to stay...she's a lot smarter than me.


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## nman (Sep 14, 2019)

100 x 65 feet lots were 50.00 in my part of Nepean as the government wanted folks to build on the existing farmland in 1971. The lots are now worth 500K per my Banker. Our house was worth 350 10 years ago and would sell for about 750 today. Never thought that would happen.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

I am in Ottawa, and we got the "Big New House" two years ago. We paid $100 over asking. Not $100K, a hundred bucks. The year before, we bid on a similar house (literally the backyard neighbour to the current one), and wen $5K over and got blown out of the water by $21K. I was bitter.....until we got this place. But it was still and $80k jump in price over the prior year.

Our old house, just 700 metres away according to Google Maps, was purchased in 2003 for $206K. We got $360K two years ago.

And I got a quote for a deck: $29K! I have never paid that much for a car! The deck can wait.

This can't keep up. Builders will start to build more again, more lumber will come on the market, and the market will self correct to a degree.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I bought the place I'm in for $74K in 1998 and did extensive renos to it. At the peak about 10 years ago, it was tax assessed at $750K, but assessments have been dropping ever since. Last year was in the high $400's


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

oldjoat said:


> and that cheap house in quebec for 225K today will still be only worth 225K in 10 years from now.


Not once they do here what they did in Toronto. If I had real estate investment type money I'd be sending it to Montreal.


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## Okay Player (May 24, 2020)

tomee2 said:


> Try finding someplace else that's cheaper though! The country properties went up 50% last year. A townhouse in Ottawa might buy you a 3 bedroom on a half acre outside of Smiths Falls now. Maybe.
> Maybe northern ON is still reasonable, or parts of the maritimes.
> 
> But I don't get the $750k townhouse in Ottawa. I just don't. And that's in the suburbs..where I live. I can't see it being sustainable unless interest rates stay near 1 to 2 percent for a long time. But if those rates go back to 4%, some people's house payments will up go 50% or more.


My Kanata townhouse has gone from being mid 3's to somewhere in the 6's in a year. It's lunacy. But between foreign investment and the stress test, there's a lot of people who are going to be in a lot of trouble if this free money the banks are giving out ever goes up in price. I genuinely worry for the future of the country but what do I know?


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## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

Bought 16½ acres of forested land and built a house on it in 1997. Total 250K. We gave 11½ acres to conservation and got a big tax receipt. With that we bought 6½ acres of waterfront in Îles de la Madeleine in 2007 and built a summer cottage on it. Total invested 85K, it is now worth 350K.

We now remain with 5 acres for the main house. We could put it on the market for over 650K and probably get 20% more.

In this Eastern Township small town of mine, prices have risen 36% in the last 12 months.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

I always say that we bought the last "move-in-ready" house in Uxbridge under $200K in 1999 (possibly true, but there may have been one or two after us). Based on what I'm seeing in our neighbourhood, I figure that it must be worth $850 today - maybe more.

Uxbridge real estate was already inflated but has skyrocketed with the pandemic - we are within commuting distance of Toronto, have good internet for those who work from home, we have easy access to nature (the "Trail Capital of Canada"), and you can get to cottage country fairly easily without having to brave the 400. 

Glad I'm already here because we couldn't afford to be here if we were starting out today. If everything goes according to plan, our house will double in size by September as both kids should be in school out of town and we'll be empty nesters.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Rollin Hand said:


> And I got a quote for a deck: $29K! I have never paid that much for a car! The deck can wait.
> 
> This can't keep up. Builders will start to build more again, more lumber will come on the market, and the market will self correct to a degree.


Not surprised. I spoke to a contractor the other day and he told me simple framing 2x4 lumber is up to over a buck a foot. Apparently a sheet of OSB is over $40. This is a baaaaad time to be building anything.


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## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

Îles de la Madeleine, that's not nextdoor. 5 hour ferry to get there. End of last summer this was put on the market. 
Basically a 10' X 20' shed like cottage built 40 so years ago, with rotted decks on 1½ acres, high cliff, no direct acces to the water, just the view.

It sold for the asked price in 2 weeks.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I'm in Brantford. Bought my house in 1993 and paid $125k About a year ago I tried to downsize to live mortgage free. Not that I have too much left to pay although due to some financial mistakes I've made in the last several years its more than it should be. A year ago our house was valued at 600k. The market we were trying to move in to (houses ranging from $400 to $500k were the hottest selling and the bidding wars made it way too competitive to get in to. While houses in the 500k+ range weren't moving as much so you couldn't get the over asking as good. Bottom line for what I'd have to give up in good neighborhood and square footage it just didn't make sense to move. Both my wife and I love it where we are. Sometimes I feel the house is too big for just my wife and I but I can't say I don't enjoy all the room. So I switched gears in my strategy and we're using almost all disposable income to pay down the mortgage faster. With double up payments and the once a year lump sum payment of 10% I'll have a total of 85k off my mortgage by the end of this term. I'll likely go in to retirement with about 40 to 50k mortgage that I'll just amortize over 30 and idle on the next to nothing monthly payment until I decide its a good time to downsize to maybe a condo. Since I never plan to get out of the market it doesn't really matter to me whether its up or down.
The only thing that might make me stay where I am forever is if the government actually goes through with capital gains on primary residence.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Lincoln said:


> Low $300K's for a 1000 sq.ft bungalow. $400K to $650K for the newer stuff up to 2500 sq.ft. Condos are under $200K


Nunavut?


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

An _extremely_ plain 1990s brick bungalow on a one-acre treed lot in a small village near us (about 80km NW of Toronto) is listed for $940K. Five years ago that house would have cost under $600K. That area of the village has similar houses on quarter-acre treed lots - those are selling for mid-$700K, would have been under 500K five years ago. Bubble? It's madness, but I was saying that four years ago. I know nothing.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

colchar said:


> Nunavut?


no, 10 minutes north east of Edmonton

And not just a bedroom community either. Loads of industry and tons of jobs here. Small city about 25K population, what else do you really need?


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Just outside of Newmarket ON, a million is a pretty average number for an older house on a fairly decent sized lot.
We left a much more posh area in SW Mississauga to come here for the lifestyle and at the time I honestly thought we were walking away from a lot of potential increase in value. But i'd say things have worked out about the same here.

Its all an illusion of wealth though. For most people, selling high also means buying high.
the only ones who truly profit are the agents making bigger commissions for the same "work", the government who gets to hit you with a bigger property tax bill every year based on what it would sell for if you actually did and the banks who get you locked into bigger mortgages.

At some point in my life I wouldnt mind retiring to an oceanfront property on the east coast or to Switzerland (if my wife got a work transfer there). Id love to retire somewhere hot, but most places dont seem particularly safe...including the US, and for now, I cant see being very far away from my kid.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

BGood said:


> Îles de la Madeleine, that's not nextdoor. 5 hour ferry to get there. End of last summer this was put on the market.
> Basically a 10' X 20' shed like cottage built 40 so years ago, with rotted decks on 1½ acres, high cliff, no direct acces to the water, just the view.
> 
> It sold for the asked price in 2 weeks.
> ...


My guess is you're buying the lot not the structure. 

I also wonder how much of this is being fueled by foreign absentee buyers who are using real estate as an investment to "park" their money? I know BC had to put a stop to it and brought in laws to curb foreign buyers. At the time I wondered how long until they just started buying elsewhere in Canada? Is this part of it?


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Always12AM said:


> If I owned a 250k house that was selling for 1 million dollars right now, I’d be tempted to sell it and rent a penthouse until the correction occurs.
> 
> Wether it be interest rate hikes, economic down turns or just plain old reality catching up with investors that nobody is going to rent a basement in shit hole Canadian towns for $2350.
> 
> ...


You can bank on a correction but this won’t mean a drop in prices IMO unless we are in a major recession.
Cashing in is a nice idea but kind of unrealistic. Once you are out of the real estate market, it’s tough to get back in. 
If my wife and I decided to sell we would be no further ahead and in fact, in a much tougher position due to the current market.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

LanceT said:


> You can bank on a correction but this won’t mean a drop in prices IMO unless we are in a major recession.
> Cashing in is a nice idea but kind of unrealistic. Once you are out of the real estate market, it’s tough to get back in.
> If my wife and I decided to sell we would be no further ahead and in fact, in a much tougher position due to the current market.


Ya I don’t blame you for wanting to just stay put and watch the circus unfold.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

LanceT said:


> You can bank on a correction but this won’t mean a drop in prices IMO unless we are in a major recession.
> Cashing in is a nice idea but kind of unrealistic. Once you are out of the real estate market, it’s tough to get back in.
> If my wife and I decided to sell we would be no further ahead and in fact, in a much tougher position due to the current market.


Agreed. Right now the inflation of our assets are worth more than our economy, which kind of alludes to a bubble waiting to pop.
This is made worse with the rise of inflation and when interest rates rise. People argue they wont, but they will.









Canadian Bank: “Your House Makes More Than You Do,” Draw Your Own Conclusion - Better Dwelling


One of Canada’s largest banks brought attention to a warning sign in many real estate markets. BMO published a research note titled “Your House Makes More Than You Do,” by senior economist Sal Guatieri. The note focuses on how sustainable and long-term current housing trends are. I’m obviously...




betterdwelling.com





This is a great quick read in regards to this

edit. And the original article 








BMO: 'Your House Makes More Than You Do'


This can't last.




www.huffingtonpost.ca


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

LanceT said:


> You can bank on a correction but this won’t mean a drop in prices IMO unless we are in a major recession.
> Cashing in is a nice idea but kind of unrealistic. Once you are out of the real estate market, it’s tough to get back in.
> If my wife and I decided to sell we would be no further ahead and in fact, in a much tougher position due to the current market.



The other factor is, depends whether you're a cash buyer after the correction or not, given it will be driven by interest rates. Want to go into a low dollar/high rate mortgage, where your payments are the same as low rate/high price?

But there WILL be a correction, it is inevitable. The question, given all the money printing going on in the world generally but particularly here at home, is 'how bad?' The government is reporting 1%ish inflation, which is just stupid, they sure aren't measuring my grocery/consumables/gas/discretionary prices. And it's pretty much impossible that housing is in there, given this entire discussion.

Sorry @TDeneka I snuck in an edit


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## crann (May 10, 2014)

LanceT said:


> You can bank on a correction but this won’t mean a drop in prices


What do you mean by this? A correction would imply a drop in prices. 


TDeneka said:


> Right now the inflation of our assets are worth more than our economy, which kind of alludes to a bubble waiting to pop.


I'm not convinced we'll have a correction in the short term (<5 years). The Toronto market has been "overheated" for the last decade with no real signs of slowing. With the amount of liquidity sloshing around, record low interest rates (don't bet against potential negative rates) and a dollar that's continually losing value (DXY or CXY charts) all assets have to increase in value. I would welcome a crash personally, but after the US-China trade war, and COVID have left no real damage on wall street (main street is a different story of course) what's going to pop the bubble?


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

keto said:


> The other factor is, depends whether you're a cash buyer after the correction or not, given it will be driven by interest rates. Want to go into a low dollar/high rate mortgage, where your payments are the same as low rate/high price?
> 
> But there WILL be a correction, it is inevitable. The question, given all the money printing going on in the world generally but particularly here at home, is 'how bad?' The government is reporting 1%ish inflation, which is just stupid, they sure aren't measuring my grocery/consumables/gas/discretionary prices. And it's pretty much impossible that housing is in there, given this entire discussion.
> 
> Sorry @TDeneka I snuck in an edit


No problem, I generally agree with your edit regardless!


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

I'm in Gananoque. Housing here has been traditionally pretty affordable because there aren't any jobs. We bought our house for $140k twenty years ago -- three bedroom century brick with a barn and shed on 120 by 60. I don't know what it's worth now but the slightly nicer house behind us went almost instantly for between 400 and 500k. They're building a third bridge over the Cataraqui River in Kingston and that will make commuting to work there more practical. I expect prices to jump when that's completed.

We didn't retire here but the low-cost housing allowed me to stay home to raise the kids while my wife worked at a teacher. Try that in Ottawa or Toronto! This is the house that sold for almost half a million:


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

crann said:


> What do you mean by this? A correction would imply a drop in prices.
> 
> I'm not convinced we'll have a correction in the short term (<5 years). The Toronto market has been "overheated" for the last decade with no real signs of slowing. With the amount of liquidity sloshing around, record low interest rates (don't bet against potential negative rates) and a dollar that's continually losing value (DXY or CXY charts) all assets have to increase in value. I would welcome a crash personally, but after the US-China trade war, and COVID have left no real damage on wall street (main street is a different story of course) what's going to pop the bubble?


Honestly, this is something people are wondering about as well. There entirely is a possibility that it just keeps rising. I suspect that it will have to be some sort of regulation, or freeing up zoning regulations to allow more development to occur in some areas.


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## crann (May 10, 2014)

TDeneka said:


> Honestly, this is something people are wondering about as well. There entirely is a possibility that it just keeps rising.


Nothing can go up indefinitely, but the mere fact that there are bidding wars and people paying over asking all over Canada suggests to me a few potential reasons 1. House prices are actually undervalued 2. Mass hysteria 3. Supply crunch. I'm of the mind that it's more 3 and a bit of 1 than 2 at this point. Lots of buyers still out there and until there's no buyers left these fancy shacks will keep going up. I don't think the hysteria has begun yet and the melt-up and eventual melt-down will be stupendous. Also very possible there's some factor/bubble out there that only a handful of "crazy" people are talking about that will bring the whole house of cards down like in 2008, but we can't all be Mike Burry's.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

I think there will be a drop in prices, just as there was back in the late 80s/early 90s, when my aunt's house (corner lot in Willowdale a 10 minute walk from Yonge St) dropped in value by $200k. I hope it's not an overcorrection, but I hopefully have time to wait out a pendulum swing.

Incidentally, a friend and his wife were looking at bigger houses. They have basically abandoned the search because the prices have gone too crazy. They could sell their place at a handsome profit and still have another $400k in mortgage if they buy another place. It's bonkers.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Is it all driven by people selling $2million properties in toronto or vancouver and moving out where they can buy a place for $500k and pocket the surplus?
Coupled with low interest rates...


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## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> My guess is you're buying the lot not the structure.


14 years ago, I bought a piece of land 5 times bigger (26,000m²) with 200 meters water frontage (accessible) for 15K.


Powdered Toast Man said:


> ... elsewhere in Canada? Is this part of it?


 Look it up, archpelago with 300km of beaches.

The cottage I built.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

tomee2 said:


> But I don't get the $750k townhouse in Ottawa. I just don't. And that's in the suburbs.


foreign investors , folks from "expensive" areas (hog town area ) downsizing and moving here , and the large simpleton servant population with the iron rice bowl, being paide twice as much as the private sector.


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## NashvilleDeluxe (Feb 7, 2018)

oldjoat said:


> and that cheap house in quebec for 225K today will still be only worth 225K in 10 years from now.


Not true. I'm in Quebec. Our place isn't even for sale, and we've had 3 real-estate agents contact us about clients desperate to buy a house/hobby farm. The estimated opening offer was about double what we have into it. The market is hot here, too.


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## crann (May 10, 2014)

oldjoat said:


> large simpleton servant population with the iron rice bowl, being paide twice as much as the private sector.


You sure about the 2x salary? Almost every high skill job in the public sector gets paid far less than the same job title in the private sector (engineer, policy analyst, researcher etc). The difference is made up in job security and benefits (only partially) but that doesn't count as pay. Now if you mean public sector workers getting paid wayyyyy too much for what they do, I can cosign that.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

crann said:


> What do you mean by this? A correction would imply a drop in prices.


A levelling off. I can't see prices dropping much if at all over the next few years, locally.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

oldjoat said:


> foreign investors , folks from "expensive" areas (hog town area ) downsizing and moving here , and the large simpleton servant population with the iron rice bowl, being paide twice as much as the private sector.


Once again, your suppositions and inaccuracies get the better of you.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

tomee2 said:


> Is it all driven by people selling $2million properties in toronto or vancouver and moving out where they can buy a place for $500k and pocket the surplus?
> Coupled with low interest rates...


I believe that's certainly part of it. They have 2 million to spend, so if they buy at $50K over asking on a million dollar home, "so what?" I also think a lot of people have decided that they will be able to tele-commute forever so they are moving to more "liveable" locations in the belief that they can "slow down". I suspect that most of them are wrong (especially the slowing down part), but time will tell.

Condo prices in the GTA, or at least in the 905 belt, seem to have dropped as more people are trying to escape high density living.


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

The house next to me sold for $1.08 mil a few months ago. Mine is similar, same age exactly, somewhat larger with a larger lot. I'm hoping the market stays or goes up as I'm selling too. The only fly in the ointment is possession date won't be until Sept. as we are building and ours won't be ready 'till then. My HELOC is maxed financing the new digs and I need much more. Scary times.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Its hard to predict where this market is going, im a little perplexed by the spending sprees people have been on since covid...house prices are only sustainable while people have jobs that can afford them. Im not confident that our economy is strong enough for that, and I suspect we're only at the tip of the iceberg in terms of businesses contracting or closing and jobs lost....not to mention how governments will try to recover debt. I dont see a catalyst for our economy to improve and IMO its been in decline for many years.

FOMO in the housing market can only do so much. We have enough equity in our house that it matters little to me, and I sold off my rental and cottage a few years ago, so my exposure is limited. Im ok with that, theres better ways to make money than real estate.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Here's a prediction. Not as many people are going to be able to permanently work from home, as they think. For multiple reasons, but the biggest will the the productivity declines companies will see, leading them to go back to some version of the old ways. Next the fact that people are social and will WANT to get back to their 'community', the biggest mental health complaints I am seeing during the pandemic are to do with isolation.

Just sayin, some of those moves away from the hubs are going to be deeply regretted.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Diablo said:


> Its hard to predict where this market is going, im a little perplexed by the spending sprees people have been on since covid...house prices are only sustainable while people have jobs that can afford them. Im not confident that our economy is strong enough for that, and I suspect we're only at the tip of the iceberg in terms of businesses contracting or closing and jobs lost....not to mention how governments will try to recover debt.
> FOMO in the housing market can only do so much. We have enough equity in our house that it matters little to me, and I sold off my rental and cottage a few years ago, so my exposure is limited. Im ok with that, theres better ways to make money than real estate.


USA is calling for massive economic upside as they come out of pandemic, are we expected to hang onto their coattails and go for a ride? The spending spree is easy to see, with all the money printing and easy access to it.

Also, see stock markets here and south of the border at all time highs.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

oldjoat said:


> foreign investors , folks from "expensive" areas (hog town area ) downsizing and moving here , and the large simpleton servant population with the iron rice bowl, being paide twice as much as the private sector.


Hmm, okay. I work for my local government and we're having trouble hiring qualified people. We also keep losing our people to the private sector as they pay way higher. Almost 15 years of wage freezes or increases that are way behind inflation will do that. 

I used to work for Parks Canada. The Parks have trades people on staff (carpenters, electricians, plumbers) due to the amount of work needed on the park sites. The couldn't even hire anyone because no one wanted to come work for us as our pay rates were well behind the trades industry rates. HR was actually BEGGING the Treasury Board to allow them to raise the rates in the collective agreements but the government refused to budge.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Remember when a pandemic was supposed to cool the market?


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

keto said:


> Here's a prediction. Not as many people are going to be able to permanently work from home, as they think. For multiple reasons, but the biggest will the the productivity declines companies will see, leading them to go back to some version of the old ways. Next the fact that people are social and will WANT to get back to their 'community', the biggest mental health complaints I am seeing during the pandemic are to do with isolation.
> 
> Just sayin, some of those moves away from the hubs are going to be deeply regretted.


I had a chat with my manager about this. She's got experience managing a remote work team and she said there's two types of manager. One is ok with remote workers and adapts to manage it. They know how to measure productivity based on the numbers and can tell who is and who isn't working. The other type demands "butts in seats". To them productivity means looking out and seeing people at their workstations. They don't trust their workers because they don't understand how to measure productivity in the first place. For all you know I could be at my desk playing solitaire for 7 hours. But I'm at my desk and there so that's all they want to see. 

My bosses want to keep us out until it's absolutely safe to return. And even then we will still retain some flexibility for some work from home going forward. I have friends whose management is just itching to pull the trigger and mandate everyone back to the office. Some have even set arbitrary dates for Summer for everyone to be back (despite vaccinations pushing into the Fall).


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> I had a chat with my manager about this. She's got experience managing a remote work team and she said there's two types of manager. One is ok with remote workers and adapts to manage it. They know how to measure productivity based on the numbers and can tell who is and who isn't working. The other type demands "butts in seats". To them productivity means looking out and seeing people at their workstations. They don't trust their workers because they don't understand how to measure productivity in the first place. For all you know I could be at my desk playing solitaire for 7 hours. But I'm at my desk and there so that's all they want to see.
> 
> My bosses want to keep us out until it's absolutely safe to return. And even then we will still retain some flexibility for some work from home going forward. I have friends whose management is just itching to pull the trigger and mandate everyone back to the office. Some have even set arbitrary dates for Summer for everyone to be back (despite vaccinations pushing into the Fall).


Well, my first clue was seeing google calling their work force back in, last week. Some pretty smart people run that company, you might have heard  Also, looking at the company I work for, a financial institution that put about 300 people out to home. We have some who have adapted and are doing OK, but I would not put them in the majority, and we have lots of ongoing inefficiencies that are not going to be acceptable much longer.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

keto said:


> USA is calling for massive economic upside as they come out of pandemic, are we expected to hang onto their coattails and go for a ride? The spending spree is easy to see, with all the money printing and easy access to it.
> 
> Also, see stock markets here and south of the border at all time highs.


Wall St and Main St dont have much connection. when a company announces massive layoffs, its stock will usually rise.
Ive seen little actual information about where the money is going to come from to fuel all this spending. If employment rebounds, thats fine. But I dont see manufacturing growing here. 
The US will be fine. But dont be surprised if they end up closing their factories in canada as part of their self preservation.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> Is it all driven by people selling $2million properties in toronto or vancouver and moving out where they can buy a place for $500k and pocket the surplus?
> Coupled with low interest rates...


I think that is exactly it. I live in Brantford which is a town perfectly centered between GTA, London, Kitchener. The local market is pretty much impossible with all the out of town money coming in. I see houses in bad parts of town going for 100K over asking. These out of town people have no idea the desirable areas from the undesirable. I get a laugh when I see an ad (I get the MLS listings) stating "eagle place house in very desirable sought after area of Brantford", when I wouldn't consider it sought after.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

A lot of people view owning a house in Toronto or Vancouver as their retirement nest egg. They struggle to keep it, hoping they can cash in big time later on. Some can hang in there, while a lot can't.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

crann said:


> Nothing can go up indefinitely, but the mere fact that there are bidding wars and people paying over asking all over Canada suggests to me a few potential reasons 1. House prices are actually undervalued 2. Mass hysteria 3. Supply crunch. I'm of the mind that it's more 3 and a bit of 1 than 2 at this point. Lots of buyers still out there and until there's no buyers left these fancy shacks will keep going up. I don't think the hysteria has begun yet and the melt-up and eventual melt-down will be stupendous. Also very possible there's some factor/bubble out there that only a handful of "crazy" people are talking about that will bring the whole house of cards down like in 2008, but we can't all be Mike Burry's.


I don't disagree, but I don't actually believe there is a ceiling for it, especially within the GTA. 
They might level off but still be far overvalued for what they are.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

agreed , gov professionals get paid some what lower ...
but the average gov worker gets paid a lot more ... especially when you toss in all the benefits that private sector workers seldom get . along with guaranteed annual increases.

yes, they are usually way over paid for the work they do and it almost takes an act of parliament to get them fired ... 
(lotsa deadwood)





__





Address the Disparity in Private Sector - Public Sector Wages, Pensions and Benefits | Open Government, Government of Canada


Open Government needs to create serious venues for addressing really tough and "NOT POLITICALLY CORRECT TO TALK ABOUT" issues facing Canadians. We need to bring these issues out into the open from their "neat little hiding places", where they've been swept under the rug so to speak. For...




open.canada.ca





a snippet :
_Study after study shows that public sector worker pay is 10% - 20% higher than private sector worker pay for the same type job. And the total compensation gap does not stop there. Public Sector workers all have defined benefit pension plans whereas the average private sector worker does not even have a pension. When we add in dental plans, prescription drug plans, number of sick days taken per year, vacation days available per year, the disparity becomes embarrassing. Public sector workers in Canada are retiring younger and younger on full pensions adjusted to inflation with benefits while private sector workers in Canada are working longer and longer past 65 with no pension and no benefits. This is insidiousness. Private sector worker tax dollars are taken to enable public sector workers to retire earlier and earlier while they (private sector workers) in turn have to work longer and longer. Something is very wrong with this picture_. 

my 2x the private sector was a bit over the top , but factor in all the perks and the public sector usually makes out like gang busters .

the reason some public sectors lag behind is because the entrepreneurs ( private sector) don't have to rely on their bosses giving them a raise when they need one ... they charge what the market will bear , TODAY. 

the private sector clerks/ secretaries/ office workers are paid what their bosses want to pay.... and are told "don't like the pay or job ? there's 10 people waiting to take your place"


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## crann (May 10, 2014)

oldjoat said:


> the private sector clerks/ secretaries/ office workers are paid what their bosses want to pay.... and are told "don't like the pay or job ? there's 10 people waiting to take your place"


Agreed. For lower skill jobs, public sector can't be beat. I work at a Canadian university and one employee group is unionized and they mostly do clerical work. I tried to get one of these people fired from my dept and it took over 3 years, 2 short term disability leaves, 100s of hours of job training and a MASSIVE payout to get her gone. 

How bad was she? It took her a full work day to print out a sheet of paper saying we were going to be out of the office the next day. She couldn't get the formatting so she printed each word on a separate piece of paper, cut them out and taped them to a blank sheet. 8 full hours. She probably made close to 50k a year with ~15k in benefits.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

crann said:


> Agreed. For lower skill jobs, public sector can't be beat. I work at a Canadian university and one employee group is unionized and they mostly do clerical work. I tried to get one of these people fired from my dept and it took over 3 years, 2 short term disability leaves, 100s of hours of job training and a MASSIVE payout to get her gone.
> 
> How bad was she? It took her a full work day to print out a sheet of paper saying we were going to be out of the office the next day. She couldn't get the formatting so she printed each word on a separate piece of paper, cut them out and taped them to a blank sheet. 8 full hours. She probably made close to 50k a year with ~15k in benefits.


That's not that bad. She could have done all that, then snail mailed it back to the university so everyone got it a week later.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

you're thinking like a true civil servant (or politician )


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

if and when central banks decide its time to raise interest rates ( and I would be referring to global wealthy nations including Canada) then house prices will drop.

The interest rate can only go up, and it will, so keep that in mind. History always repeats itself.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

dgreen said:


> History always repeats itself.


they made a song about that ....

but agreed , we're at the bottom for interest rates , so there's only one direction to go in. 
the clock is ticking .


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

oldjoat said:


> you're thinking like a true civil servant (or politician )


Actually, more like any union member with high seniority.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

It's insane everywhere right now. A medium sized side split just went for about $2M on my street. I'm in the Don Mills area of Toronto.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Young families flocked to home


What it went for




nationalpost.com




Queen Street East and Pape Avenue
Asking price: $1.495 million
Sold for: $1.7 million
Taxes: $5,553 (2020)
Bedrooms: 3
Bathrooms: 2
Square footage: 1,376
Garage: 0
Parking: 1
Days on the market: 2


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## alphasports (Jul 14, 2008)

oldjoat said:


> BTW ... ain't planning to move anytime soon
> everything is paid for and I don't want to start over in the rat race.
> 
> 
> ...


I hear you but it's NOT that cheap at least on the island. I bought in 2007 for 360k, now just over 1m. Crazy. Good (I guess) but crazy. You gotta live somewhere so it's not "profit" until you cash out and find some place to live cheap. But yes, gets VERY tiresome as the perennial 2nd class citizen. My wife is Swiss so we have options, but what's crazy is I feel 100x more "at home" on vacation in Switzerland where they are open minded and conditioned to multiculturalism than I do here in QC. Sucks.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

gee , with about the same population (8.5 million) .....
Switzerland has 4 *official* languages compared to just 1 in quebec 
Switzerland gets along fine with it's identity with a lot more people coming and going.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

crann said:


> You sure about the 2x salary? Almost every high skill job in the public sector gets paid far less than the same job title in the private sector (engineer, policy analyst, researcher etc). The difference is made up in job security and benefits (only partially) but that doesn't count as pay. Now if you mean public sector workers getting paid wayyyyy too much for what they do, I can cosign that.


My dad was an engineer and civil servant and that's exactly what he said in about 1960: you trade out the greater pay for more security and maybe better conditions. He was right, too. He left Automatic Electric in Brockville which it gradually became part of Nortel…


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

Reading this thread has convinced me I'd better buy a tent.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

sorry all the camping grounds are booked up till next year 
maybe an RV in the walmart parking lot ?


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## HolttChris (Aug 10, 2020)

The average sale price is up 49.41% over March 2020 in Windsor


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

OUCH!


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

This might be of interest...
Here’s how home prices compare to incomes across Canada


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

vadsy said:


> depends where in BC, the lower mainland, yea big money. some places around the resorts sure. the rest of BC is hillbilly wasteland, they'll pay you to move there towns are dying


I disagree. Maybe because I live somewhere "Beyond Hope"? Kelowna, Kamloops, Penticton, Osoyoos, all real estate prices are way up from recent years. Average home selling prices are way higher compared to last couple of years. I grew up in the Lower Rainland of BC. You wanna talk about a wasteland? The entire GVRD is just that in my opinion. I left it 30 years ago by choice. One of the best decisions I ever made. Maybe that's best thing about hillbilly wasteland....It ain't suited for big city folk. Which is just fine by me. 17 years ago I paid $160K for a home in Kamloops. Today that same home sells for about $700K. Not bad for hill a billy wasteland. If you like to hunt, fish, camp, ski, snowmobile, boating, mountain biking, nature, wildlife, parks, and more the hillbilly wasteland has it all.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

keithb7 said:


> I disagree. Maybe because I live somewhere "Beyond Hope"? Kelowna, Kamloops, Penticton, Osoyoos, all real estate prices are way up from recent years. Average home selling prices are way higher compared to last couple of years. I grew up in the Lower Rainland of BC. You wanna talk about a wasteland? The entire GVRD is just that in my opinion. I left it 30 years ago by choice. One of the best decisions I ever made. Maybe that's best thing about hillbilly wasteland....It ain't suited for big city folk. Which is just fine by me. 17 years ago I paid $160K for a home in Kamloops. Today that same home sells for about $700K. Not bad for hill a billy wasteland. If you like to hunt, fish, camp, ski, snowmobile, boating, mountain biking, nature, wildlife, parks, and more the hillbilly wasteland has it all.


I did say resorts, and those towns you mention are huge resort type communities (maybe not Osoyoos), drawing tourism and a buttload of outside investment. I bet half the homes are owned by people from out of province, even country. yes, prices will be high


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

laristotle said:


> Queen Street East and Pape Avenue
> Asking price: $1.495 million
> Sold for: $1.7 million
> Taxes: $5,553 (2020)
> ...


After I finished at OCA in the 80s I lived at Pape and Queen with some friends from school. The place was a dump and it could have been that house in the picture .. lol


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

keithb7 said:


> I disagree. Maybe because I live somewhere "Beyond Hope"? Kelowna, Kamloops, Penticton, Osoyoos, all real estate prices are way up from recent years. Average home selling prices are way higher compared to last couple of years. I grew up in the Lower Rainland of BC. You wanna talk about a wasteland? The entire GVRD is just that in my opinion. I left it 30 years ago by choice. One of the best decisions I ever made. Maybe that's best thing about hillbilly wasteland....It ain't suited for big city folk. Which is just fine by me. 17 years ago I paid $160K for a home in Kamloops. Today that same home sells for about $700K. Not bad for hill a billy wasteland. If you like to hunt, fish, camp, ski, snowmobile, boating, mountain biking, nature, wildlife, parks, and more the hillbilly wasteland has it all.


the Kamloops area has some pretty cool history to it. Volcanoes, minerals, mining, etc. Pretty good looking wasteland if you ask me.

I would love to live somewhere along the Thompson River or North Thompson River.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Lincoln said:


> the Kamloops area has some pretty cool history to it. Volcanoes, minerals, mining, etc. Pretty good looking wasteland if you ask me.


It's central BC in the south and is crossroads to some amazing country. Great mountain biking area too. It's on our move-to list when that time comes.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Queen and Pape means you're neighbours with Cask Music iirc, which isnt terrible.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

I live in a pretty unique spot. Real estate here is its own thing. The 1 bedroom across my courtyard is $500K. Probably about 650sqft

500 sqft closet is gonna fetch $325k or more, if furnished right.


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

My home, Kamloops BC area. I do love it here. We get darn-hot, dry summers. Some snow in Jan & Feb. Pretty awesome the rest of the year. It's about time real estate buyers took notice of this wonderful valley I call home.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

Well, another Ottawa suburban example: a house on our old street, backing on to a major street (4 lanes, 80 km/h limit), with small rooms and a one car garage going for the exact same amount as we paid 2 years ago for the much larger house I live in now, on a quiet court with tons of space, a two car garage and a massive yard. And they'll likely get more than asking because there is next to NOTHING for sale in our neighbourhood.

Again, there'll be a correction. I just hope it won't be an overcorrection.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

mike_oxbig said:


> if you’re a millionaire in Ottawa you can buy a real nice townhouse. My place is currently worth way way more than what I paid for it, and I’m tempted to use the opportunity to move back to bc...but I probably won’t because work is too good here. Ever think about moving somewhere cheap to retire? If you did/do where is that place?
> 
> & finally, what’s the average price for a moderately big house and yard in your locale?


In Ottawa too so same experience. Looking at moving out of the city but properties within say an hour’s drive are being gobbled up by Torontonians with more money than we’ll ever have.


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

I feel bad for the people who were born and work here in Gananoque. They'll never be able to afford a decent house.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Stephenlouis said:


> Seriously? That is nuts, there is no infrastructure there, everything is patchwork, I have friends who live there, high property tax and the whole town( old logging town) needs new plumbing... I like it out there, go often, but even when it was cheap the property taxes were a deal-breaker.


He's got 20 acres so likely doesn't care about city infrastructure as I'm guessing they'd be on well and septic. The new owner is also from Renfrew.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

keithb7 said:


> I disagree. Maybe because I live somewhere "Beyond Hope"? Kelowna, Kamloops, Penticton, Osoyoos, all real estate prices are way up from recent years. Average home selling prices are way higher compared to last couple of years. I grew up in the Lower Rainland of BC. You wanna talk about a wasteland? The entire GVRD is just that in my opinion. I left it 30 years ago by choice. One of the best decisions I ever made. Maybe that's best thing about hillbilly wasteland....It ain't suited for big city folk. Which is just fine by me. 17 years ago I paid $160K for a home in Kamloops. Today that same home sells for about $700K. Not bad for hill a billy wasteland. If you like to hunt, fish, camp, ski, snowmobile, boating, mountain biking, nature, wildlife, parks, and more the hillbilly wasteland has it all.


The towns you listed are hardly thought of as hillbilly, they are well know retirement spots for people in most of Canada so values will be going up like they have been in Ottawa or Moncton or Regina. 

Whats property like in Nelson, Prince George, or Prince Rupert?


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

I'm sure my cousin is loving that the started a real estate business a few years ago.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

StevieMac said:


> I'm now in Gananoque but the housing market in nearby Kingston is bonkers. The most recent year-over-year increase was *36.7%*. Places are selling within _hours_ of being listed and typically at 10-20% over the asking price. Agents report they now tell buyers that offers with any conditions, _including inspection_, don't stand a chance. We're seeing that same market frenzy creep into Gan but we're comfortable staying right where we are.


That was one of the places we were considering retiring too but there's so little inventory and what is there is overpriced and nothing nice near the main streets or the river.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

news flash ... even ottawa was a hick lumber town at one point .... 
given enough time , almost every place rises in value ( somewhat)

even the outlying ottawa burbs used to be cheap ...


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

butterknucket said:


> I'm sure my cousin is loving that the started a real estate business a few years ago.


same one that started Home Depot?


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

keithb7 said:


> It's about time real estate buyers took notice of this wonderful valley I call home.


I think we are at that time now.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

have had 2 separate "agents" cold call at the door in the past year ... "are you considering selling?"

"do I have FOOL tattooed across my forehead? was the first answer
"sure , for 750K and no conditions " was the second.
place was worth 350K at the time....


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

oldjoat said:


> news flash ... even ottawa was a hick lumber town at one point ....
> given enough time , almost every place rises in value ( somewhat)
> 
> even the outlying ottawa burbs used to be cheap ...


When we moved here 20 years ago Ottawa was more expensive then Ajax, Pickering where we moved from. It was a shocker to us! We were told it was the tech bubble.
By 2010 Ajax was way more expensive.
Today it seems they're about the same. 
The burbs here are remarkably evenly priced, I can't think of any one place that is significantly more expensive then another. 

The hick town I grew up in AB, where 20 years ago a house was $15k, they're asking $100k.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

tomee2 said:


> Is it all driven by people selling $2million properties in toronto or vancouver and moving out where they can buy a place for $500k and pocket the surplus?
> Coupled with low interest rates...


This and.....

Private equity is pooling their money to buy up as many properties as they can to use as rentals in the short-term. They see housing prices steadily climbing where they can make 20 to 30% on their investments which beats the stock market. Not only are you competing against Torontonians who sold their $3M properties, you are now competing against international firms since there's no restrictions against anyone or any nation buying real property in Canada.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

1SweetRide said:


> This and.....
> 
> Private equity is pooling their money to buy up as many properties as they can to use as rentals in the short-term. They see housing prices steadily climbing where they can make 20 to 30% on their investments which beats the stock market. Not only are you competing against Torontonians who sold their $3M properties, you are now competing against international firms since there's no restrictions against anyone or any nation buying real property in Canada.


Well, that is a problem.


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## butterknucket (Feb 5, 2006)

vadsy said:


> same one that started Home Depot?


No, I have an uncle and a few of his sons who own Home Hardwares. You can see them here if you're really bored.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

tomee2 said:


> Well, that is a problem.


Imagine that foreign nations, not even necessarily friendly to Canada, are using shell buyers to snap up property and making it hard for Canadians to ever own a home.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

I do not know but they say they sell well over asked price : One even suggested to hold auctions before the house for sale to avoid writing numerous overbids back and forth !


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

1SweetRide said:


> Imagine that foreign nations, not even necessarily friendly to Canada, are using shell buyers to snap up property and making it hard for Canadians to ever own a home.


*blackstone corp* comes to mind ... investors pool their money , buy up blocks , refurbish (or build new) , then rent out/resell at high $$$$. .... 20-30% return on their investments are usually expected.

not just the housing market.
what happens to the oil fields in AB when the oil companies exit and 
sell off due to "going green"
China ( with canadian registered companies ) slides in and buys everything for 
pennies on the dollar . fast forward a few months/years and China now tells the government
" we want those OIL pipelines to BC coast built ASAP, or else" and "F*ck the green sh*t"

what is the "or else" , simple ... they call in the billions / trillions in loans made to the canadian government and dump canadian government issued bonds (making them virtually worthless ) ...
and all that natural gas being piped to eastern canada ? ... you can say "not anymore, freeze your asses off"


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## StevieMac (Mar 4, 2006)

Thought it might be interesting to see where things sit in the market 6+ mos after that initial post. As for Gananoque, avg price & time listed prior to sale are now over $500K & 2 wks respectively. Don't know where that sits relative to the provincial average but I'm guessing "well below average".


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Pricing has increase by 100% for some units where I live ($500K to $3 million) . Golf membership is cheap though at $3500 for homeowners - and the course is really nice.

I live in the smallest home - just so you don't confuse me with a 3 mill owner


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## DC23 (Mar 28, 2014)

We were looking. Unfortunately, where we are we are simply priced out. Saw a 2 bedroom townhouse listed in a somewhat central location, very little upgrades, for $600K. The stats also showed a 76% price variance over the last five years so that's telling. At this point, I only look for curiosity. Gotta be a fun time for the boomers and those with money to play in but anyone just looking to start out are out of luck.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

I am dying to sell our place but mrs won't let me.


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

Lady on the corner (backing onto the golf course ) is asking 1.175 million.
If she gets that, I'm selling up.....


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

Purchased 3 houses in and around Peterborough. The talk for years was once the 407 hits Peterborough home prices will go up and they did. Purchased a home with 3 acres 4 bdrm and large finished bsmt for 280k in 2014 sold it 2 yrs later for 100k more than purchase price. Ya might still find a cheap house across from G.E where a 35 ft milling machine leaked for over 160 yrs creating underground blooms. I think thats how tall it was,,,they got rid of it before they closed. 
Some houses in that neghborhood had been insultated with 'bestos and had river stone foundations. Crime rate going up there.
But they have fancy bike lanes and long beard guy with a bun and flannel shirt with arms rolled up and blundstones type bars and restaurants.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

Not sure what's increasing faster in price? land or buildings. The farmer next to me sold a 50 acre agricultural parcel of land for $500K, less than a year ago. We bought our place in 1986 for $110K...a 1 1/2 storey farmhouse with a barn and tack room, with 50 acres.
We tried to change our land to rural residential, to sever it and sell-off some lots but were told it won't be done because it's prime agricultural, we didn't think so at the time but maybe it is...things do grow big and plentiful around here.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

DC23 said:


> Saw a 2 bedroom townhouse listed in a somewhat central location, very little upgrades, for $600K.


I could buy 3 nice detached homes in my area for $600K.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

Everyone my age who has entered real estate in the last 2 years has never worked on a house or done a day of physical labour in their lives. They walk into a house and knock on the kitchen counter and tell you that it’s an air tight investment. They will then introduce you to a mortgage broker who will get a hairdresser a 1.2 million dollar mortgage and then encourage them to enter then into a 200k bidding war.

This is why houses are selling for a million dollars that will be worth 368k as soon as the supply shortage or interest rates or Covid exodus nears a correction.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Sold my MIL's small condo 3 weeks ago. They paid under $200k about 15 years ago. We listed it for $475k and got an offer for $570k the first day, which we accepted. It's nuts out there. Very good time to be a real estate agent.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Consider also the off shore money laundering that been happening for years.
Especially Vancouver.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

I believe my house is probably worth the same as I paid about 5-6 years ago. Calgary is not exactly booming, despite the recent rise in O&G.


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## WCGill (Mar 27, 2009)

I wrote 6 mos. ago we were selling as we'd committed to a new build close by. HELOC maxed out, end of Sept. possession date, no place to rent or store things, my health not great, everything was kind of crappy. We did sell and the new owners let us live upstairs until Sept. 27 while they occupied the downstairs suite part-time until they were ready to move permanently from the lower mainland. Wow, what a relief. Yeah Baby! And thanks to the mods for sorting it all out as well.


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