# Opinions on Self study versus guidance of qualified instructor



## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I just started taking lessons from a Humber graduate and am quite excited about increasing my musical knowledge and putting theory together with my practical knowledge of almost 30 years. 
Almost every thing I've done in life I've done through self study as I'm very good at learning on my own. I've learned almost everything pretty much on my own to have a career in IT, I've learned golf almost all on my own. I had a few professional lessons. Its a hard game. And almost everything I know of music I learned on my own. I did have about a year of lessons as a kid. 6 months at the Royal Conservatory of music, which I found was a very slow process and 6 months at a music store. I had little interest and found guitar boring while taking lessons. After I stopped taking lessons I couldn't put the guitar down. And so my parents left it at that.
Now when I tell anyone I know that I am taking music lessons they look at me like I have 2 heads and wonder why I need to take music lessons as they see me as an accomplished guitarist. Myself I see nothing wrong with a professional seeking out a coach. If Tiger Woods can seek out a swing coach I guess I can seek the help of another guitar pro.
So now I've come full circle and want to get some formal training to see how this will expand my musical knowledge. 
I'd just like to get everyone else's opinion on what they think is the advantage of Instructor training versus self study. Or even the advantages of Self study over an instructors help.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

"If Tiger Woods can seek out a swing coach I guess I can seek the help of another guitar pro."

That covers it.

Lots of pros seek out other pros for help, that's how it's done in the big leagues. Whether it's regular lessons, irregular workshops, occassional lessons, or short courses. I've had some one-on-one with other pros, and it has done a lot to motivate, educate, and validate me.

Not only do I get pros coming to me, but I seek out other pros. We're never done learning, and anyone who thinks otherwise is beyond arrogant.

Good for you, I admire your attitude.

Peace, Mooh.


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## GuyB (May 2, 2008)

I'll go with everything that was said before. I took an instructor last year, an hour every two weeks for 6 months. As Paul said, I knew what I wanted and asked him a "plan". It was very profitable (and as a supplement, he gave some good advice, outside the "plan", mainly technical aspects wich I would have never thought of).

I play golf too and your comparison with music could not be more acurate. I'm going more and more toward jazz and the mental attitude you must have for good improvisation is the same that when you play golf ! You have to be relaxed and let the body speek by itself without any "rational" interference. You know what happens when, stressed by a previous bad shot, you start "thinking" at the address of the next shot ! Same with music. A good golf instructor helped me a lot by giving me good basics, you have to do the rest by yourself.

Same with music, I think ! The hardest part is to find a good instructor, in both activities.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Thanks for the responses guys. 



> Lots of pros seek out other pros for help, that's how it's done in the big leagues. Whether it's regular lessons, irregular workshops, occasional lessons, or short courses. I've had some one-on-one with other pros, and it has done a lot to motivate, educate, and validate me.


Thats the way I see it too mooh. For about 4 or 5 years I almost lost the enthusiasm to play and my equipment had cob webs. in the past 8 months I've had the spark again. I've researched and purchased all new equipment to go after a particular sound that I want and am now sort of refreshing my skills and knowledge to sort of change my approach and style (hopefully for the better) Sort of like when Tiger changes his swing to improve his overall game. Thats what I'm looking to do in music. Change some things to improve my overall game.



> The biggest disadvantage to self study is that you might not identify your mistakes. As an adult learner, I'm a fan of a blend of both. I don't have the time or inclination to spend $25.00 and 30 minutes every week with a teacher. I'm at a point where I know what I want to learn, and am a bit less interested in what someone else might think I need to learn. When I went to Johnny, I went in saying this is what I can do, this is what I want to do.....make a map. Which is what he did. I've almost completely absorbed what he gave me, and I'm getting better at applying it.
> 
> With self study you will tend to seek out what you think you want. With guided study you will (hopefully) have someone that can keep you on a somewhat guided path. I believe that a competent teacher will help you cross the bridge from things you know, to things you understand and apply appropriately.


Thanks for your breakdown on my question. Makes alot of sense. What you have described in a teacher is what I'm looking for. I know exactly where I want to go with it but at this point have a bit of trouble visualizing exactly how it will be done. Of course I only had one lesson and it seemed overwhelming. I'm not used to all the technical terms. I remember when I first got in to I.T. I was overwhelmed with all the technical terms and acronyms. But after about a year of self study and hanging and talking with others that were in to the same thing it was like actually learning another language. Thats what I need to do now is find some musicians to hang with that are in the same place. Alot of bands I play with right now do not know 1 thing about theory and music. Although in one of the bands I play in we just hired a new bass player that teaches at L&M in Cambridge and seems quite knowledgeable. Thats a start I guess.



> You should know that golf has little to do with hitting a ball, and much more to do with swinging a golf club where a ball happens to get in the way. Music has the same "A-Ha!" moments for many of us.


My game has very little do with the ball getting in the way of the golf club and more about the trees, sand bunkers and water getting in the way of the ball.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

GuyB said:


> I'll go with everything that was said before. I took an instructor last year, an hour every two weeks for 6 months. As Paul said, I knew what I wanted and asked him a "plan". It was very profitable (and as a supplement, he gave some good advice, outside the "plan", mainly technical aspects wich I would have never thought of).
> 
> I play golf too and your comparison with music could not be more acurate. I'm going more and more toward jazz and the mental attitude you must have for good improvisation is the same that when you play golf ! You have to be relaxed and let the body speek by itself without any "rational" interference. You know what happens when, stressed by a previous bad shot, you start "thinking" at the address of the next shot ! Same with music. A good golf instructor helped me a lot by giving me good basics, you have to do the rest by yourself.
> 
> Same with music, I think ! The hardest part is to find a good instructor, in both activities.



In agreement with everything you said. Too bad you weren't a little closer. We could have gone out for a round.


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

I will probably have my first lesson soon.


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## wnpgguy (Dec 21, 2007)

just recently the internet has provided a huge boost for people who learn on there own. There is so many free teachings, its as if you have someone with you right there.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

wnpgguy said:


> just recently the internet has provided a huge boost for people who learn on there own. There is so many free teachings, its as if you have someone with you right there.


Yes indeed, the internet has been awesome for me, as a Mom I don't always have lots of time so I can pick and choose what I want to learn. I tried lessons and it didn't work out, the guy was nice, but I realised I could get the same "lessons" from tabs books. I also realise that it takes time to find the right teacher and that I just don't have now. One day...


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Agreed, the Internet is a great argument for self study versus seeking instruction. For me although I have played for a long time I feel lost in a sea of terms I'm not familiar with. No doubt that the Internet has about all the info you need but try organizing that info in to something useful when you really are not sure what you are looking for. As I become more familiar with theory I will probably be able to ween my self from instructor guidance and gain more usefulness from the Internet. I am using the Internet to help me study in what the instructor is teaching.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Yeah, the Bruno site is cool.

All the resources in the world are of no use if the student doesn't practice. Regardless of how you learn, you gotta practice, then practice so more, and when you're done that, practice again. It works, and there is no substitute.

Peace, Mooh.


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## wnpgguy (Dec 21, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> I am using the Internet to help me study in what the instructor is teaching.



EXAACLTTY. I am taking lessons now and all the lessons give me besides great knowledge is the reasurance that what I am learning is usable. On the internet I can find the same advice but in a sea of other opionions so I don't know what I am hearing is valid or worth my time. 

With a teacher I can get the basics of what they are presenting and then basically hit the fastforward button on my brain and hit the internet to get the tabs, history, charts etc.. of what I am being taught. 

A teacher for me is just a way of keeping me on track with the internet pushing me forward.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

As someone who took lessons, and also taught--my views may be obvious.

I think both are valuable, and when I took lessons I also tried to learn things on my own and from friends and other students. 
When I taught I encouraged students to learn things on their own and from others--and we worked on those as well. Sometimes it was hard to be non-judgmental about some of the things they came up with, but as a teacher sometimes you have to be. But it's all in how you present that to the student--you don't come down on them, but come from another angle on how it would benefit them to not do something--or to try it in a different way.

I had 3 years of piano lessons when I tried to teach myself guitar, but it didn't work out so well--I was never sure if what I did was right or not.

Of course it also depends on the teacher, the student, the book, the website, etc.

To sum it up--both have their value, and to dismiss one out of hand is not wise. No matter how good that "Self-taught" guitarist is, who knows, maybe they'd have been even better if they were open to other ways of learning?


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## Fajah (Jun 28, 2006)

Paul said:


> I've heard from some in town that Jimmy Bruno's site is excellent.


It is. I've been a member for a year now. Bridges the gap nicely between private lessons and self-study. Being taught by one of the masters of jazz guitar for $20/month is pretty good but like everything else, what you put in is what you'll get out.


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## dhutchings (Feb 16, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> I am using the Internet to help me study in what the instructor is teaching.


That's kind of what I've been doing. My instructor will give me some stuff to work on, and following it up with independent research (and practice) has led me to some Eureka moments.


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## wkriski (Nov 18, 2008)

*a teacher is useful*

A teacher can provide accountability as well, knowing you have a lessons will keep you practicing. He can provide feedback and keep you from wasting time on non-useful activities. Even gurus such as Tiger Woods have coaches that help him with various parts of his game.

Over time you may find you have a good handle on what you need to practice and are self-motivated enough to study on your own. At certain times you may need some a new perspective and motivation, which certain teachers can provide. In either case you have to put in the work, no one else can do it for you.


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## lyric girl (Sep 4, 2008)

Bill Rieflin, current drummer of REM is totally self taught, although he has taken a few lessons recently I have heard.

I believe that everybody is different especially in how they learn. I am currently seeking out my second teacher and I hope that this works. However, I did start this journey learning from books, so I may go back there eventually anyways.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I hope we hear an update from time to time on how the lessons are going. I'd be very interested to hear your reports.


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## devnulljp (Mar 18, 2008)

hey, not to derail, but has anyone tried Jack Zucker's Sheets of Sound? He certainly seems knowledgable and is a great player. It sounds like it's going to be interesting, and it obviously worked for him, but I wonder about the whole Siddhartha thing...the same path not working for everyone and all that. 
Anyone tried it? Comments? I like the idea that he ws thinking about horn players the whole time.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I've recently been thinking of taking some lessons as well, in order to get over some hurdles/plateaus as well, and maybe broaden my horizons a bit.

Its not the stigma that bothers me (I dont play golf but as a hockey goalie I know NHL goalies have goalie coaches as well....and I'll always remember that Vai took lessons from Satriani), the difficulty for me is in finding a teacher with the style/ skillset I'm looking for. 

I wish I lived in LA. I could probably get lessons from some of the 80's shredders themselves since their careers went the way of the pterodactyl. I know Oz Fox from Stryper teaches privately, and for reasonable prices:
http://www.ozfox.us/lessons.htm


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## bryguy9 (Jul 13, 2007)

I have been trying to play since the GeneMachine couldn't stop me from buying a BC-Rich with Red Snakeskin print overlaid with Leopard spots.

I bought books, read books, lost books. I work for an Internet company so I have unlimited access to the weebinfo. 

But I finally managed to get some time in with a local guitar teacher within reasonable Bruce County winter driving distance.

And dammit I couldn't be happier. It's not much time, once a week. But it is mind expanding. And horizon expanding. It is time one on one with another musician, and a professional.

Better than all of that, it's direction. Guidance. Information from the web and books are like drinking from a firehose without a little guidance.

I am pretty chuffed about lessons, can you tell?

B:smilie_flagge17:


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

Diablo said:


> I wish I lived in LA. I could probably get lessons from some of the 80's shredders themselves since their careers went the way of the pterodactyl. [/url]


I take lessons from a chap in NYC via Skype. Finding a suitable teacher is a tough one but the technology now has opened up a larger pool of options. After doing my own due diligence, i knew this would be the right teacher and it has been a great match. I'm motivated and that's really what it boils down to. btw, Skype is free from computer to computer and most laptops now come with a video cam built in.


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## Justinator (Jan 27, 2008)

I haven't read through the entire thread, but heres my spin on the topic.

I have never taken guitar lessons personally, but have a few friends of mine who have taken lessons in the past or still do. Based on what I have heard from them and what I have gathered from watching them play, I can say that the benefit of lessons relies heavily on the instructor.

It seems as though some instructors give students the basics: open chords, some scales, maybe the CAGE system. But past that, I often question what are these instructors doing during the lessons? I know someone who has been taking lessons for 4 years, and I had to tell him what a capo was, which is absolutely pathetic. However, these lessons were from a local guitar shop. I am sure there is a huge difference between instruction from a local shop and a professional instructor. 

I think to get benefit out of lessons you have to lay out exactly what your looking for to the instructor, like what some people here have done, with a 'plan' of some sort. 

I am still very young (17) so I still have a lifetime of learning ahead of me, but for now I think I will stick to my theory books.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Hi Justinator, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the instructor provided by a music store vs. a unaffiliated/private instructor. As with your books, you get from them what you put into your studies. As someone who's given the odd informal lesson, it's not always obvious to the beginner what theory or mechanics are involved in regards to a style/form or approach. A "plan" is a good idea, but I would have some issues with a student dictating what he/she thinks is necessary or pertinent to their intsruction. Just my $0.02 worth.

Shawn :smile:


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## lbrown1 (Mar 22, 2007)

Rugburn said:


> Hi Justinator, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the instructor provided by a music store vs. a unaffiliated/private instructor. As with your books, you get from them what you put into your studies. As someone who's given the odd informal lesson, it's not always obvious to the beginner what theory or mechanics are involved in regards to a style/form or approach. A "plan" is a good idea, but I would have some issues with a student dictating what he/she thinks is necessary or pertinent to their intsruction. Just my $0.02 worth.
> 
> Shawn :smile:


I would agree with this.....I started learning at 35 after having never before even touched a musical instrument or knowing any theory - so I did not know where to start. all I wanted to do was play. My first instructor was a 16 year old kid - great player - not a great instructor - but a good one I'd say from the perspective I have now - but being motivated I took what I learned from him and researched deeper on the Internet and in books

I saw another comment about some seasoned players not knowing anything about theory at all.....the really seasoned players I play with on a regular basis fall into this category. Now - I know that many accomplished players do know the science behind what they're doing very well - but these guys I play with just know what to play by ear and by feel.....I NEEDED that theory to be able to learn to play because I didn't have the experience and years under my belt to figure it out by ear...I'm no music theory expert - but when asked about a riff or a lead I may have played - I respond with the theory behind why I played what I played - and they look at me like I've got 2 heads...I really admire the ability to be able to pick something out by ear and hope to get there some day and it's getting there slowly - without the theory behind it though - it'd be like hunting for treasure without a map.

so - my 2 cents .......instruction is for everyone - even accomplished players. Casual playing with others - at whatever level the others are at is also an incredible tool for learning new stuff.......

but at the end of the day - ya gotta be motivated and ya gotta practice.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

Diablo said:


> I've I wish I lived in LA. I could probably get lessons from some of the 80's shredders themselves since their careers went the way of the pterodactyl. I know Oz Fox from Stryper teaches privately, and for reasonable prices:
> http://www.ozfox.us/lessons.htm


LOL! I also heard that's what Michael Schenker was up to post divorce! 

I wish, wish, wish I had time for lessons. At the moment I'm struggling mightily and really need a kick in the pants, I may try that Bruno site.. Can't hurt.


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## Vintage_Groove (Mar 4, 2008)

There are so many factors at play when learning guitar (or in my case the bass). Some people have the inherent ability to 'get' things quickly, they have this unconscious understanding of how things piece together, and even though they can't explain 'why', they can just play it right. 

Others need more. I think in a lot of cases we all have gaps, things we’re good at, others we need help with. A good teacher will spot those gaps and know what you need to learn to build on to make your playing great (and enjoyable).

bryguy9 said it best:

“Information from the web and books are like drinking from a firehose without a little guidance....”

I'm pretty self-motivated, organized and disciplined. But even I have difficulty in knowing if I have the right type of information or if I'm just spinning my wheels and wasting precious time on something that adds little value to my forward momentum.

I think if you find the right instructor whom you can ask questions of and engage in helpful conversation, and they lay out a solid blueprint of where you need to go to be a well rounded player, then that's the best choice to have.

Some people can profit from self-learning, but I’ve notice a lot of those people claim it more as a badge of honour...

"You see! I built this shed with my bare hands!"

"It...kinda looks like a shed, sort of..."


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## Justinator (Jan 27, 2008)

I'd just like to correct my last post, I didnt mean to dismiss music store instruction, I shouldnt have generalized it that way. I think a more appropriate wording would have been that some instructors have a better idea of what to focus on than others. Depends on what the student is looking for too (and if they are not experience players I suppose they wouldnt know what to look for), so I agree with you shawn.

I find youtube is a very good resource. The "how to play this song" lessons are useless to me, but there are countless lessons on scales and picking techniques. Best thing is it's free, and if your not sure where to go with your playing next ....thats what guitarscanada/board is for


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

No worries Justin. I'm basically self taught, but I had some very generous help early on from a few great players. Your right about the studies your undertaking via YouTube. Learning how to play other's songs is great ear training, but chords and scales are more valuable. These are the tools we use to _create_ music. Take care.

Shawn :smile:


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

A main factor is that everyone just works and learns differently. It's not just a guitar thing, a lot of times it applies to everything the person does. They have a method of learning. Or some people require the motivation and the push of working with someone.

Even the people who do learn well working with an instructor one on one can have problems finding a person that matches up with how they learn. 

I have found I personally have better luck just watching YouTube videos or videos in general. I can take things at my own pace, and rather than asking to go over one specific thing 20 times I just rewind it. It's easier on me, and it would sure be easier on an instructor. I don't feel nervous, and the instructor doesn't get impatient (even the best can get impatient).

I got more out of 'jamming' with my neighbour when I first started learning than taking formal lessons as well. I do think that groundwork was very important in the beginning. Again, formal lessons might not be the best starting point for ALL people. They weren't for me.

You just gotta figure out how your brain works lol.


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## Duster (Dec 28, 2007)

This is a question I see all the time, and it's a weird one. People ask, what's better, this or that?... usually when they have to make a choice between two things. But in this particular case, you don't have to make a choice of one or the other. Choosing one doesn't exclude the other. In fact, the obvious best choice, is to choose BOTH.

You can take lessons AND learn on your own. You can learn on your own AND take lessons. One doesn't take away from the other, in fact they complement each other.

Have you ever learned anything well, like a sport, or a trade, that you learned exclusively from a teacher? I'm guessing the answer is no - otherwise you would do only what your teacher tells you and not experiment with your technique, have some trial-and-error, or read/learn about the sport or trade on your own time. 

And have you really ever learned anything well, like a sport or a trade, WITHOUT a teacher? Some people say they learn music by themselves, but I'd be hard pressed to find a truly self-taught musician. More than likely they learned a bunch of stuff on their own, then started playing with others and picking up tips, tricks, and techniques from their fellow players. Those are their teachers, even if they don't call them as such.

Could you learn to be a martial arts expert without a teacher or coach? Could you learn to be a true fighter if all you did was listen to your teacher?

--- D


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