# US Customs incident lands man and wife in jail for simply going shopping!



## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

Here is an audio hyperlink of a couple going shopping in the states smart mouthing a US Customs Agent landing them both in Jail. I have crossed the border thousands of times during my lifetime, and there is one thing that I've learned that you must be respectfull to the Agents, no matter what they ask you, with short, definative answers. Especially, If the Agent is having a bad day. This Thread should create good discussion, both positive and negative. Have a listen and you be the Judge. 


* Audio of incident between Canadian citizen and US immigration officer.**** : Information Clearing House -* ICH


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

I don't know when people, Canadians and Americans specifically are going to get it through their heads that when they cross the border they are entering "ANOTHER COUNTRY". You are not entering another city or State or Province with the same laws and freedoms. I crossed the same border in Michigan twice a week for 12 years. Many of the officers there knew me and I knew them. Not once did they ever not ask me the appropriate questions and not once did I ever give them false information or get snooty with them. 12 years... 

Border guards have supreme authority and can do anything they want to you. You have absolutely "ZERO" rights at a border crossing. You might have some once you cross, but you have none when you are at the crossing. These fools seem to think they have some rights to cross that border into a foriegn country and dictate how they are going to do it. They are wrong.


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## J S Moore (Feb 18, 2006)

I had never really considered what crossing the border meant until I heard that customs agent explaining what he has to deal with. Everyone knows who they are but it's a hard job to decide what another person is all about. Especially when other people bear the brunt of the consequences.

I don't know why so many people feel entitled to do whatever they want. I blame Dr. Spock.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

"I'm not gonna obey orders if I don't understand the reason for them...what are you gonna do?" Way to piss off a border guard. He behaves like the relationship is one of equals. The guards sure keep their cool, and they start to sound like therapists in trying to calm the guy down, to no avail. My bet is the guy was so nervous crossing the border that he lost his common sense...or he's just a jerk...or both.

Peace, Mooh.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

Interresting. I found it remarkable that the question "in what store?" started it all. The guy's response was one of annoyance at being asked the question. Understandable, although edgy, response under 'normal' circumstances. But this ain't no normal interaction. A more 'normal' question might have been "do you know what store you will be shoppin in?"


The Guard took offense to the guys 'tone' when he declared in a spiteful manner that he didn't know what store. The guy's attitude, not cool, the guard's response, not cool. The guy did not play that one well. But you gotta be real nice and patient and agreable to guards who have total power and authority to mess with your life. 

I also found it interesting that the last guard said that 'pulling away' from an officer trying to subdue you is considered 'assualt',... his wife got charged for assualt for tugging on one of the guards too. who knew? 

All in all that episode was a big waste of tax dollars as it was probably clear to all that this man and his wife were of no threat to national security. but a good lesson to learn, thanks for posting.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I survey border guards, among tens of thousands of other federal employees. I was chatting with CBSA's director of recruitment the other day, and noted the rather testy and forthright quality of some comments I've seen on our surveys, coming from border guards who had encountered something they felt warranted a complaint. My friend noted that I had to remember that these are the folks who have to look into your eyes and try to figure out if you're a risk, and what sort. As such, they are not likely to shy away from confrontation, should one be warranted.

I don't mention this to suggest a weakness on their part, but rather to note that most jobs tend to require certain personality characteristics, and this one requires that you stand your ground. Folks trying to cross the border should know that border guards are unlikely to yield to bullying the way that, say, a sales clerk or service rep might. They are expected to be respectful of anyone coming up to the border, and give all persons their rights, but are NOT eager for your approval.

On top of that, from other conversations with border guards that I've had, they have to put up with so much continuous crap (some of it from commercial trucks), that you start to think it's a miracle (and a testament to their self-restraint) they don't haul you out of your car and rough you up _before_ they ask questions.

It's always the folks who think in terms of "Yeah, but I was just....." that cause problems. They look at the situation from their own perspective only, and decline to look at it from the perspective of the other party.

Say you lost your ticket to something and the bouncer or person at the gate won't let you back in. *YOU* may know that you already paid for your ticket, but the gatekeeper can't be expected to make judgments about each and every person coming to the door with such a claim. The smart thing to do is to work from their perspective and ask the bouncer what would be acceptable evidence for them that you had indeed lost your already-paid-for ticket, such that they could confidently let you in. The dumb thing to do is simply reiterate louder and louder that you already paid for it and deserve to be let in.


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

What a dumbass. I have crossed the border daily for 11 years now and there have definitely been times when I _felt_ like sassing some of the Immigration officers I have had to face. Feeling like it and actually doing it are worlds apart tho. I have been insulted about my car, the way I've dressed and even about my accent and, once, the beeyotch in the booth actually sent me, my wife and two young daughters in for an "interview". Fortunately the officer inside took one look at us, asked us why we were there, apologized for the inconvenience, and sent us on our way. I have to say that 99% of the time, the border guards have been polite and respectful. Everybody has a bad day once in a while and when it is someone who's wearing a sidearm and has unlimited power over you, you better bite your tongue, swallow your pride and answer their questions, whether you think they are stupid or not.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Like a 3 year old. Why? But, why? It's like he lives in an alternate dimension where we haven't had 9/11 and all the subsequent changes to all international travel.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I cross customs pretty much every week. I've never had the slightest problem. Know the laws concerning limits to spending and declare everything that could be detected as recently purchased and you'll have no problem.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I listened to as much of the recording as I could stand. The interviewee "knows" far less than he purports to, and basically objects more than he needs to because he feels like his honour or honesty has been impugned by being questioned. People absolutely hate it when they feel unfairly accused. That's the basis of all those barfights that start with someone thinking that "you're looking at them funny". And of course, people vary with respect to their threshold for feeling impugned.

The first guard could have been a little less testy, and should have mentioned up front what the overarching rationale behind his approach was and needed to be, as opposed to repeating "I don't need a reason". The 2nd guy made the reasons very clear and did a nice job of it. He would not have had to if the 1st guy had done so.

We too often assume that others already know our reasons for doing something, and feel no need to explain. The declaration "I don't need to give you a reason" is really saying "I don't need to give you a reason beyond all those which I think you are already clearly aware of and currently mindful of", except that the guy he's saying it to is NOT currently mindful of those reasons and so interprets the guard's statement as simple power assertion. If the Canadian guy was less cynical or mistrusting of power, he might likely not have reacted to the guard as he did, based on what the guard said, but the guard didn't say enough, and the guy he was saying it to had a hair trigger and made some bad decisions about his replies.

Turning points? The driver could have said "Well, no store in particular. We were planning on walking around several of them and seeing whether there were any bargains or not, given the exchange rate on the Canadian dollar at the moment." Something that would have distinguished him as a person _intending_ to shop in Niagara Falls, rather than someone with a vague B.S. story about shopping who had other purposes and destinations on his mind.

I see the blame for the incident as being divided 30-35% guard / 65-70% driver.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

mhammer said:


> I see the blame for the incident as being divided 30-35% guard / 65-70% driver.


Pretty useless to analyze blame as it doesn't really matter. The border guard has full authority. End of story. The driver was too stupid to realize that once he got hauled in to the office, he should have been falling all over him self to be nice and non argumentitive. 
Border Guard 0% fault cause he was God at the moment. Driver 100% fault. Cause he is just too stupid to be doing things like going across the US border.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

The visual would have been revealing I bet. 

Peace, Mooh.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

guitarman2 said:


> Pretty useless to analyze blame as it doesn't really matter. The border guard has full authority. End of story. The driver was too stupid to realize that once he got hauled in to the office, he should have been falling all over him self to be nice and non argumentitive.
> Border Guard 0% fault cause he was God at the moment. Driver 100% fault. Cause he is just too stupid to be doing things like going across the US border.


I agree. The border guard DOES have full authority. But it is also his job to elicit the most cooperation from people attempting to cross. Provoking confrontation, even in people who should have known better and are in the wrong, creates bottlenecks and gums things up for everybody else. That doesn't mean sucking up. It means shaping people to be the most suitable for the purposes of your job. And in this job, "Most suitable" means they volunteer the sort of information you need to efficiently make a reliable determination of risk. No matter how much authority you have, or deserve, if the client is provoked into being resistant, you're not doing your job as well as you can.

Still, both driver _and _guard have to assume that maybe the other party is not necessarily thinking what they're thinking at this moment, and needs some assistance to do so. Having full authority does not absolve someone of the responsibility to be an effective communicator with another human being. Particularly if being a better communicator lets you do your job better. Remember, some of the people stuck in line behind the obstreporous driver are American citizens, returning to the country where they pay taxes that pays the salary of the border guard.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

mhammer said:


> I agree. The border guard DOES have full authority. But it is also his job to elicit the most cooperation from people attempting to cross. Provoking confrontation, even in people who should have known better and are in the wrong, creates bottlenecks and gums things up for everybody else. That doesn't mean sucking up. It means shaping people to be the most suitable for the purposes of your job. And in this job, "Most suitable" means they volunteer the sort of information you need to efficiently make a reliable determination of risk. No matter how much authority you have, or deserve, if the client is provoked into being resistant, you're not doing your job as well as you can.
> 
> Still, both driver _and _guard have to assume that maybe the other party is not necessarily thinking what they're thinking at this moment, and needs some assistance to do so. Having full authority does not absolve someone of the responsibility to be an effective communicator with another human being. Particularly if being a better communicator lets you do your job better. Remember, some of the people stuck in line behind the obstreporous driver are American citizens, returning to the country where they pay taxes that pays the salary of the border guard.


I don't think the border guards give much time to shaping their line of questioning to illicit the best cooperation. I think it works quite the opposite. They do their thang and if there is one iota of resistance, I think you'll find your self in the office real quick. But you go ahead and take that attitude across the border if you want. And I think if you are even remotely as verbose with the border guards as your posts are here on GC I think you might find your self in the border guards office with a rubber glove up your ass. Then if thats not enough for ya, maybe you can try the Mexican border.kkjuw


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

I totally agree with hammer's assessment of this saga, but I did get a kick out of guitarman's posts and do agree with his advice. 

I don't cross the border very often but I sure have learned a valuable lesson here, esp from you guys who have been thru this many times: have the right attitude, suck it up, stay low, and be real nice to the person who has all the power, no matter what you think of them or what they are doing. 

I got irritated with security folk who spent 15 minutes removing toothpaste from the tube in my travel kit at the airport because it was over 100ml. They actually put it into smaller containers instead... seriously. I was tempted to say something, but didn't. Now I will just be real nice as they grope me. actually, that part I would probably be OK with.:smilie_flagge17:


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

When you cross the border its Yes Sir, No Sir, Thanks You Sir... end of story


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

nkjanssen said:


> That's because it's in your own self-interest to do so. I've crossed the border plenty. 99.9% of the time, it's no problem at all. Only once did I run into a border guard that was a complete a-hole. I sat there and took it because I wanted to get into the U.S. and knew that guy could keep me out. It doesn't mean he was justified in being an a-hole, though.


Absolutely, but they are the boss there, not us. People have to realize that you can be denied entry to any country for any reason. If they dont like the look of you they can just tell you to turn around and go home. There are no rules, they make them up as they go along. But those are the _rules_ and it works on all borders, not just entering the US. In fact, I always got pestered more by the Canadian customs when I was coming home than I ever did by the US getting in.


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## fudb (Dec 8, 2010)

I crossed daily for a couple years, and weekly or more for a couple more. I've let my FAST card expire now and I couldn't be happier not to cross. I never had a problem, I had my truck searched once by dogs. I just kept my nose clean and like someone said, "yes sir no sir". Volunteer nothing unasked for, answer questions truthfully and don't be stupid (like, try to smuggle) and you'll be fine. Oh. And take your sunglasses off. 

Biggest jerk guard I ever dealt with told me to park somewhere specific with very poor sight lines (had to blindside back to get out). I said if I parked there I'd need guiding out. He said OK. Went in did my ppwk, came back out, saw him. Asked if he'd spot while I backed and he just gave me that sh*tty 100 mile stare and walked away. Those guys aren't saints and some of them are complete utter omnipotent pricks. Most of them are just doing a job they feel is important, and are regular people outside of that.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

they knew exactly what they were doing. they goaded that guy into just enough frustration that they created a scene from nothing. now those of you who are not american can see that it's not "we the people" there any more. trouble is most americans don't have a clue. as an american, that scene is an embarassment. there is no excuse/justification for the behavior of those guards. they are not protecting people's freedom. they are bullies, pure and simple.

when i came here to canada, i got a hard time from the border guy. i actually was yes/no sir the whole time, always polite and immediately cooperative. still i was screamed at to the point that his face turned red and spit flew from his mouth. 
my response was "whatever i did to make you mad, i apologize, just tell me what it was, so i don't do it again"
he told me what i did was come to his country to take a job from a canadian. when my paperwork was processed i was investigated for 3 1/2 yrs. they held my status from me, wouldn't let me leave, wouldn't tell me why i was being investigated, wouldn't let me work. i still don't know why i was investigated. _the mp says i'n not allowed to know_.
i'm a fat, middle aged, american white guy, with no criminal record. i have no ties to anyone who might attract the attention of people like that and never have. yet all of it still occured. 


my point is, it's not just the states. it's everywhere now. freedom has gone from reality to myth.
as usual. that's my opinion and experiences. ymmv


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I think the whole thing, at any time, should have culminated in "your denied access to the U.S. Please turnaround". "What store are you going to be shopping in" is inciteful and no easier to answer than how long is a piece of string. He got exactly the response he wanted - complete confusion at the absurdity of the question and he got to flex his power.

I am wondering if was staged - cause it just don't sound right - not the progression - nor the penalty.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

allthumbs56 said:


> I think the whole thing, at any time, should have culminated in "your denied access to the U.S. Please turnaround". "What store are you going to be shopping in" is inciteful and no easier to answer than how long is a piece of string. He got exactly the response he wanted - complete confusion at the absurdity of the question and he got to flex his power.
> 
> I am wondering if was staged - cause it just don't sound right - not the progression - nor the penalty.


No matter how dumb the question you still have to answer it with respect and with a smile on your face. Whats wrong with saying "not really sure officer, we are just going to spend the day walking through the mall, probably hit all of them" instead of saying "what do you mean what store? how am I supposed to know?". Thats just dumb, really dumb. Plenty of times when I said I was going over for meetings they would ask who would be there, what the subject was going to be, how long it would be. I could easily have said "how am I supposed to know how long it will be? (while saying to myself "how the **** am I supposed to know you dumbass). Instead I used my brains and said "they usually run about one hour officer".


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

cheezyridr said:


> they knew exactly what they were doing. they goaded that guy into just enough frustration that they created a scene from nothing. now those of you who are not american can see that it's not "we the people" there any more. trouble is most americans don't have a clue. as an american, that scene is an embarassment. there is no excuse/justification for the behavior of those guards. they are not protecting people's freedom. they are bullies, pure and simple.
> 
> when i came here to canada, i got a hard time from the border guy. i actually was yes/no sir the whole time, always polite and immediately cooperative. still i was screamed at to the point that his face turned red and spit flew from his mouth.
> my response was "whatever i did to make you mad, i apologize, just tell me what it was, so i don't do it again"
> ...


Thats a brutal story Cheez, and one that should have been reported. But I have to believe that this is a very rare occurence. As mentioned earlier I had years and years of borders and airports. pre and post 9/11 and I never had an incident. Plenty of long lines and questions, but never an incident. I witnessed many though and without exception it was always someone that had a problem with the process and somehow felt that they were not the same as all the rest of us and should be exempt from all questions and screening. I used to just walk on by them as they were being led into the secondary inspection areas. Note to all, you will never win at the borders or at the airports, it just wont happen.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Last time I was in the US, (I don't get there often, we don't live near the border) crossing the border into the US, the border guard was all business, and we answered his questions straight, and showed our ID, removed our sunglasses when he wanted to see what we looked like them etc. He seemed very military.

Coming back into Canada it was all friendly--like we were friends talking about what we were doing.

Night & Day--and fit some stereotypes about Canada and the US.
Don't get pushy, argumentative or nasty with them.

As airports were mentioned too, last week I flew to Vancouver, and I was the random person for a check--I could do a pat down, a body scan or a hand swab--I chose the hand swab as it seemed the least invasive. My friend said I should have told them that, but I didn't want to chance that they would take that the wrong way, and make me do all three.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Pretty useless to analyze blame as it doesn't really matter. The border guard has full authority. End of story. The driver was too stupid to realize that once he got hauled in to the office, he should have been falling all over him self to be nice and non argumentitive.
> Border Guard 0% fault cause he was God at the moment. Driver 100% fault. Cause he is just too stupid to be doing things like going across the US border.


I must agree. Some people know how to deal with authority figures and some end up in jail. It's really that simple.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

allthumbs56 said:


> I think the whole thing, at any time, should have culminated in "your denied access to the U.S. Please turnaround". "What store are you going to be shopping in" is inciteful and no easier to answer than how long is a piece of string. He got exactly the response he wanted - complete confusion at the absurdity of the question and he got to flex his power.
> 
> I am wondering if was staged - cause it just don't sound right - not the progression - nor the penalty.


Keep in mind that, since no one is clamping a GPS monitoring device around your ankle (to be removed when you leave the U.S.), once you enter the border, you could make a point of staying in an undocumented fashion. So the border guard is not just checking to make sure you don't bring diseased plants or animals across the border. They are, in essence a Q&D replacement for Immigration and Naturalization Services. Okay, so if YOU were an immigration officer, what sort of questions would you ask someone attempting to obtain a visa? Would "I'm going to study" or "I'm going to look for a job" be enough to make you comfortable letting this person stay in your country? Wouldn't you ask them somethng a little more specific?Like I keep saying, WE know we're just doing a couple hours of cross-border shopping. THEY can't make that assumption.

Pre-09/11, the smoothest border-crossing was at Point Roberts,WA/Tsawassen,BC ( Point Roberts, Washington - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ). This is a little chunk of land sticking out from the BC coast, south of the greater Vancouver area, that just happens to be south of the parallel defining the Canada/US border. For ages, it was where folks in the southern suburbs of Vancouver would drive to to get gas, smokes, porn, or anything else that was either unavailable or more expensive in BC. The "crossing" was akin to a little Fotomat booth, with one or two guards on duty who would virtually just wave you through. It was a lax crossing, because there was really nowhere else to go once you got there, so there was little security risk. 99.9% of the people who came through from Canada simply did whatever business they had to do and were crossing back the other way within an hour (Pt. Roberts has a population opf <2000 so you're not looking at big outlet store malls). True, people could travel to the Washington mainland by air or boat, but that would be much easier to monitor than if there were roads connecting Pt. Roberts to the rest of the state.
From what I understand, it is not that way anymore.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

I used to go to Point Roberts to fill up after dropping my bud off up the street, half the time it was just a question and a wave, on the way back it was the same.

Crossing for me has always about being prepared with my docs glasses off and everything exposed in the car. I start with a good day and hand the docs over before I stop and he asks, then its all yes sir or no sir. If a hard question is asked like what exactly are you doing its answered by honesty which I think they can see through.
On the way back its the same, I declare everything and have all my paperwork for what I bought in order. 99% of the time they see this and let me right through without having to pay taxes.

One thing that was mentioned was that they were aware that that person had crossed less than 10 times, you have to know they are keeping tabs on you.
He was taking offense to the questions and answering with a questions, thats wrong. He should of prepared for the worst and hoped for the best.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Thats a brutal story Cheez, and one that should have been reported. But I have to believe that this is a very rare occurence. As mentioned earlier I had years and years of borders and airports. pre and post 9/11 and I never had an incident. Plenty of long lines and questions, but never an incident. I witnessed many though and without exception it was always someone that had a problem with the process and somehow felt that they were not the same as all the rest of us and should be exempt from all questions and screening. I used to just walk on by them as they were being led into the secondary inspection areas. Note to all, you will never win at the borders or at the airports, it just wont happen.


i think it probably is a rare occurence. it's the only time i've had trouble. for the years previous to that while the wife and i did our long distance relationship i never had even the slightest problems going in either direction. my whole point was that this type of thing can happen anywhere, and there are no garantees it was John Q Public who started it. well, that and how i believe land of the free home of the brave ain't such anymore. something that i learned rather late in life, is that even though your last point seems _to me_ so obvious that it doesn't really need mentioning, some people really don't already get it. hard for me to wrap my head around that.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

WoW any of you guys reading what you are posting? Supreme authority? Yes Sir No Sir? Rubber glove? The only people that have that are ... well, Kim Ill Jung has it. Vidal Castro has it. Anyone want to pop over to the Ivory Coast, there is a new one there shooting women and children to claim it.

While you may say "its to keep the bad guys out", acting in this manner, means what we are doing is really giving the bad guys a paying job and permission.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

keeperofthegood said:


> WoW any of you guys reading what you are posting? Supreme authority? Yes Sir No Sir? Rubber glove? The only people that have that are ... well, Kim Ill Jung has it. Vidal Castro has it. Anyone want to pop over to the Ivory Coast, there is a new one there shooting women and children to claim it.
> 
> While you may say "its to keep the bad guys out", acting in this manner, means what we are doing is really giving the bad guys a paying job and permission.


Bottom line is you are entering a country where you are not a citizen. You have to right "god given or otherwise" to enter that country. You are "granted permission" to enter the country based on many factors. Undesirables are kept out for the most part. When we were young and the world was a different place and being raised 30 minutes from the Buffalo border we used to go over all the time. We never really thought of it as being in another country being so close. As you get older and start to understand that the laws and your legal rights can be very different do you start to wake up a bit and pay attention.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

1) I am sure there are many jobs in the security field where the advice given during training is to remain as humorless as possible at all times, simply because smiling and joshing around is the time when you are most likely to be taken advantage of.

2) *EVERY* government will want to keep their border-management costs as low as possible, which means making borders as efficient as possible, while not sacrificing security. One choice is to have more lanes and locations for crossing, in order to expedite things, but that obviously costs more. Another choice is to have as few guards/lanes as possible and rely on a more formal and strict approach to processing vehicles/passengers that has guards managing the screening with firm control and an approach that gets them what they need to know as quickly as possible.

3) In some ways, border guards are not really any different than inspectors on an assembly line doing a quick check for quality control, making sure that no crap gets through and packaged with the name of their company on it. The assembly line has to be engineered to show them what they need to see to make a quick determination of quality, such that throughput can be maximized. The questioning style of border guards is not a conversation. It is a quick inspection for quality control of what gets through.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

It is what it is.

All I can say is, I know how to clear customs quickly.

I got a Nexus card because too often people in line in front of me didn't seem to have it figured out.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

We still go accross the border once or twice a month and although things have changed over the years we still have never had a problem. When I was much younger, it wasn't unusual for us to cross the border 2 or 3 times a week to hit various bars or restaurants in Niagara Falls, NY or Buffalo. The border folks were always great. One time my friend and I were in line on the bridge and my old MG blew a heater hose and overheated. We had no choice but to inch forward with the line so we pushed that car all the way to the booth and explained the situation to the guard when we got there. He allowed us to push through and arranged for us to get some water from inside Customs - including a container of extra water. Then they moved some barriers and sent us back home with a wave.

Today's a different story. I had a friend actually set off the radiation sensors at a crossing - she'd had a radiated (?) iodine treatment for cancer two weeks earlier. FWIW we don't have those sensors coming in to Canada - who'd want to blowup "America's Hat"?


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

This isn't a border crossing issue, this is a particular person's attitude problem. I have dealt with many people like this serving the public and this guy has a sense of entitlement that makes him believe he is above everyone he encounters in a service position. He was not at Wal-Mart, he was not ordering a pizza, he was at an international border crossing. I love the agent at the end who kept asking the guy, "Where do you think you are right now?" He was belligerent from the get-go. We're only getting the audio, but what was this guy's body language to accompany what we're hearing? Was he playing with his iPhone? Did he appear angry? Was he rolling his eyes and making faces? He figured he was above the front line officer - he even makes a comment where he references something the "first level guy" said. This is the guy who immediately demands the store manager come talk to him when a clerk tells him something he doesn't like. He can't see any situation from any perspective other than his own. When the agent was calmly trying to explain why they have to ask people questions, the guy just kept saying "but this is me we're talking about. Do you really think I'm a terrorist?" 
Ugh, I hope this guy enjoyed his shopping trip. Fun part is he's probably red flagged now so every time he crosses he'll be pulled off and interviewed.

I never have trouble crossing the border. Before I come up to the window, I remove my hat and sunglasses, and have the car doors unlocked. I look the agent in the eye when responding and I am respectful in my answers. I don't ask questions or give any attitude whatsoever. I have my ID ready and receipts and amounts totaled up. Basically, these guys are trained to notice any odd behavior and act on it. They deal with crap all day. If you show respect for them and the process, they appreciate it and leave you alone.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Milkman said:


> It is what it is.
> 
> All I can say is, I know how to clear customs quickly.
> 
> I got a Nexus card because too often people in line in front of me didn't seem to have it figured out.


Thats what it's all about Mike. You can fight it but you will not win. As I mentioned earlier, I used to just walk (or drive past) those that chose to argue about it or challenge the rules and regulations. To be very honest with you if they want to look up my arsehole at an airport go ahead, give me a prostate exam while you are at it. Just keep that line moving. I have been in those new xray machines 4 times now. Takes about 15 seconds and off you go.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Thats what it's all about Mike. You can fight it but you will not win. As I mentioned earlier, I used to just walk (or drive past) those that chose to argue about it or challenge the rules and regulations. To be very honest with you if they want to look up my arsehole at an airport go ahead, give me a prostate exam while you are at it. Just keep that line moving. I have been in those new xray machines 4 times now. Takes about 15 seconds and off you go.


Yup, couldn't have said it better.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I've only crossed a few times in my life, mostly to spend my hard earned cash at Elderly Music. 

Once in the late 70s it was pretty dicey because they assumed (I guess) that a fancy van full of band gear might have stolen stuff or drugs in it. Other than that it's been clear sailing, though I've only entered the Excited States a few times. A few years ago the border guards waived us through in one heck of a hurry to get us out of the way because they were focused on the next vehicle. What I saw out the back window was frightening. Fact is, they see you coming long before you get to the kiosk.

There may be lots to this story we don't know. 

Peace, Mooh.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Thats what it's all about Mike. You can fight it but you will not win. As I mentioned earlier, I used to just walk (or drive past) those that chose to argue about it or challenge the rules and regulations. To be very honest with you if they want to look up my arsehole at an airport go ahead, give me a prostate exam while you are at it. Just keep that line moving. I have been in those new xray machines 4 times now. Takes about 15 seconds and off you go.


haven't had the body scan x-ray thing and I won't. they can feel me up all they want but no mega dose of radar for me. 

It is a facinating sociological phenom too when you consider that the person wearing the uniform has no power, the power is in the uniform. Like someone mentioned, once the uniform comes off they are just like everyone else. In my minimal experience most of them behave accordingly, they are just good people doing their job. Once in a while you get one that becomes possessed by the authority bestowed by the uniform, be it a military uniform, police or the like, then you had better not challenge them...

Years ago my wife and I got pulled over for not coming to a complete stop at a stop sign. The policeman proceeded to use the incident to insult and chastise at the top of his voice until he was red in the face. we sat there in shock. We reported him to his superior officer who told us that we were on a long list of complaints about this officer and that he had posted him in a quiet residential area to monitor traffic hoping he would stay out of trouble. he was soon given a desk job. People like that should not be given a uniform that gives them power over other people but should be working on an assembly line somewhere like mhammer mentions, where they cannot impose their neurosis on other living beings. It is likely too that these kinds of professions often attract just that type who crave that power. 

just a little rant there, nothing else to declare sir...


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I overheard a conversation on the bus last night after work, involving two young folks, one of whom works for CATSA. he indicated that CATSA was interested in providing advance travel information to Canadians, such that they could arrive at check-ins prepared in such a way to expedite security checks. Now, I realize that's air travel only, and I realize it is specific to security, but I think it reflects a sincere interest on the part of agencies tasked with securing borders to have traveller preparation dovetail comfortably with border/security guard needs for a useful, reliable, and efficient inspection/clearance process.

I will simply note in passing that it is a standard practice in the security world to rotate people regularly. It is difficult to remain aloof and appropriately suspicious for long periods at a time, and doing so is likely to bring on "personality changes" that are somewhat antithetical to doing the job well and maintaining good relations with the clients. This is true whether you are checking bags, a commissionaire at the entrance to a building, or someone sitting in a booth at a border.

Rotating police officers might be more difficult, since it is not the sort of thing that can be done on an hourly basis.


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## Fader (Mar 10, 2009)

I visit the states almost every week for a tank of gas and couple jugs of milk. The boys on the U.S. border are very serious about their work. I've been asked some strange questions over the years and I only can answer the best I can. Sometimes it seems like they're screwing with me, but I don't give them any attitude and I have never got any from them.

Every so often at Queenston-Lewiston, they cull 10 cars or so for x-ray inspection. You have to drive over to a special area and exit your vehicle. Then they drive by the cars with this huge mobile x-ray truck. It takes about ten minutes and then they send you on your way. No big deal.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Fader said:


> I visit the states almost every week for a tank of gas and couple jugs of milk. The boys on the U.S. border are very serious about their work. I've been asked some strange questions over the years and I only can answer the best I can. Sometimes it seems like they're screwing with me, but I don't give them any attitude and I have never got any from them.
> 
> Every so often at Queenston-Lewiston, they cull 10 cars or so for x-ray inspection. You have to drive over to a special area and exit your vehicle. Then they drive by the cars with this huge mobile x-ray truck. It takes about ten minutes and then they send you on your way. No big deal.



I cross Queenston-Lewiston often (yesterday in fact) and also Windsor and Sarnia. yes, sometimes they ask what may seem to be strange questions, but there's method to their madness.

When you're crossing for business you have to be very careful about such questions.

The trick is to know what they're trying to pry out of you. You can't say anything that could be interpreted as "work".

Other than that, take off your sunglasses, turn your phone and radio off. Open front AND back windows so they can see in cleary, don't answer questions that aren't asked of you. They're not there to chat. Answer and wait for the next question.

You're through.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

I had a customs officer going off on a power trip today at my depot, he was giving one of the other tenants a hard time because of where he parked his truck.
Overhearing this and being responsible for the entire site and both tenants I stepped in.

The customs officer had no reason to be pissed off, he was actualy in the wrong, the other driver was stuck in a situation beyond his control.
I told the officer that the driver was on common property and he had no right to speak to him like that, i also said I am the property manager for the site and if he has a problem he should talk to me or my partner first.

Well, can you say light a fuse!!!
He was all over me red in the face and how dare you, when I pulled out my blackberry and looked for numbers he was even crazier like I couldnt give a crap about him. When the manager of customs who I called was standing beside him he never even noticed, he almost hit the guy when he was tapped on the shoulder.

I told the manager that either he goes home right now or I will charge him with assult, that set him off again so I explained assualt to him and he stormed off.
About 10 min later I seen he was still there and came with my guards to escort him off the site, he had to take off his uniform and I swear he shrunk!


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## Rich Rice (Feb 5, 2008)

OK.. So I was born, raised, and live in Chicago. The whole border thing is flawed, and people can always find something to get into a problem. Doesn't matter where you're from, or where you're going. I have found it easier to go into Canada and Mexico than it has been to come home, and I am always with my family. Last summer we almost missed our connecting flight due to excessive interrogation on the part of out border guards at the airport.. We had been to Mexico for a family vacation, and I was pulled out of line with my wife and two of my sons. We were put in a room and left there until the Customs guys got around to interviewing us. Then we were escorted to a second room and given the third degree, had ourselves scanned, and our baggage emptied and inspected. None of us has ever been in trouble with the Law, it was totally random. I was floored. Really made me angry. We spent our 1.5 hour layover in some sort of custody, then ran to the plane (where the rest of our family had been boarded), had to check our carry-on luggage as there was no time to stow it in the overhead, and the plane took off almost before we were seated. I can only imagine what some poor visitor would have felt/done if that had happened to them.. Thing is, terrorists and subversives go through undetected- they know how to play the game. What a pity the world has come to this..


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Rich Rice said:


> OK.. So I was born, raised, and live in Chicago. The whole border thing is flawed, and people can always find something to get into a problem. Doesn't matter where you're from, or where you're going. I have found it easier to go into Canada and Mexico than it has been to come home, and I am always with my family. Last summer we almost missed our connecting flight due to excessive interrogation on the part of out border guards at the airport.. We had been to Mexico for a family vacation, and I was pulled out of line with my wife and two of my sons. We were put in a room and left there until the Customs guys got around to interviewing us. Then we were escorted to a second room and given the third degree, had ourselves scanned, and our baggage emptied and inspected. None of us has ever been in trouble with the Law, it was totally random. I was floored. Really made me angry. We spent our 1.5 hour layover in some sort of custody, then ran to the plane (where the rest of our family had been boarded), had to check our carry-on luggage as there was no time to stow it in the overhead, and the plane took off almost before we were seated. I can only imagine what some poor visitor would have felt/done if that had happened to them.. Thing is, terrorists and subversives go through undetected- they know how to play the game. What a pity the world has come to this..



TSA = Terrorists Searching Americans ;-)


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

like i've said before. israel's safety record speaks for itself. and they do not employ the "tactics" that we do over here. they have a much bigger more persistent threat than we do. yet millions of north americans calmly pay their government to treat them as though they were common trash. some sheeple will claim it's the price we pay for safety. i will be polite and say that i disagree with them.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

And on the other hand, I have nothing to hide and therefore nothing to fear. If somebody wants to search my bags or the trunk of my car, let them. I've never had the slightest bit of trouble and as I've said, I cross borders almost every week.

Right to privacy? Not in this world.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Milkman said:


> I have nothing to hide and therefore nothing to fear. If somebody wants to search my bags or the trunk of my car, let them. I've never had the slightest bit of trouble and as I've said, I cross borders almost every week.
> 
> Right to privacy? Not in this world.


this part isn't logic. that's like walking walking through a bad neighborhood expecting not to get mugged because you have no money in your pocket. totally irrelevant.

you feel you have no right to privacy? what about respect? 

i don't mean to come off the wrong way, but the idea that everything must be fine the way it is, because you cross the border without incident every week, seems a little flawed to me. 
it means that you're ok with someone else having trouble, _as long as it doesn't happen to you._ that and the part i wrote in red, above. if a business treated you the way the government does, would you have the same attitude? if you say no, then what's the difference?


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

I have nothing to hide. Never have. And yet, a few months ago coming back from New Jersey I got put through the Rapescan machine AND ALSO patted down.

While I was 100% certain the outcome would be me moving on to my gate it was not a pleasant experience.

The system sucks. I travel to the US as infrequently as possible because I hate their system so much. Just last week I was told, coming back from San Jose, that I should have taken my liquids and gels *out* of my suitcase when going through the security check. What? When did that change? In the last 5 weeks since I'd been in the US? It's ad hoc, security theater. Saves no lives, costs money, insults travellers.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

iaresee said:


> It's ad hoc, security theater. Saves no lives, costs money, insults travellers.


Absolutely. I have decided not to fly anywhere this summer for vacation because of the security theatre BS, and will likely curtail air travel as much as possible from now on unless they change things. 

As we have now seen, any large gathering of people in an airport, say for example, at the luggage carousel or <gasp> a line up at the security gate, is just about the most un-secure place you could be. 

But I feel so much safer now that you grabbed my nuts and sent grandma through your x-ray machine.


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## Guest (Mar 30, 2011)

Sneaky said:


> Absolutely. I have decided not to fly anywhere this summer for vacation because of the security theatre BS, and will likely curtail air travel as much as possible from now on unless they change things.
> 
> As we have now seen, any large gathering of people in an airport, say for example, at the luggage carousel or <gasp> a line up at the security gate, is just about the most un-secure place you could be.
> 
> But I feel so much safer now that you grabbed my nuts and sent grandma through your x-ray machine.


I wiggled when he touched my nuts. He looked at me and I said I was just trying to get my money's worth. He was not impressed.


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> like i've said before. israel's safety record speaks for itself. and they do not employ the "tactics" that we do over here. they have a much bigger more persistent threat than we do. yet millions of north americans calmly pay their government to treat them as though they were common trash. some sheeple will claim it's the price we pay for safety. i will be polite and say that i disagree with them.


I don't really know what Isreal's security procedures are like at their airports although I have heard that they don't have problems with terrorists on their flights... so instead they are just blowing up cars and buses and setting themselves off in other public places... Isreal just moved the problem, they didn't fix it. But I think we have had this discussion before... 

...and like I probably said before, I think we are having the wrong discussion - I don't mean us here in this thread, I mean the big global 'we' with regards to 'security threats'


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Sneaky said:


> Absolutely. I have decided not to fly anywhere this summer for vacation because of the security theatre BS, and will likely curtail air travel as much as possible from now on unless they change things.


Unfortunately, if you hold on to that thinking, you are not going to be doing much travel for the rest of your days on earth. It's not ever going to lighten up, not in our lifetimes or for several more lifetimes. It will get more intense, perhaps with better equipment they can process people faster, but make no mistake that the world has not seen the end of the Osama's and the Adolf's. We manage to breed one or two of them every generation and the weak minded, that cannot seem to live under natural rules and have to follow someone or some thing... will continue to pose a threat to the rest of us slobs that just want to go to work, come home and watch a few hours of TV before heading to bed. I sure as hell wont let them or the machines stop me from traveling. Air travel is still the safest form of mass transit available today, by far. 

Don't go rock climbing in Cuba or Bird watching in Libya and you should be fine for now.


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## Metal#J# (Jan 1, 2007)

Fortunately for me I have no desire or need to got to the US. Just watching an American news channel makes me sick! Their fear culture seems to be something they embrace rather than admit they are partly responsible in spreading the sensation by way of their media whoredom. 

Regarding the couple in the audio clip........stupid for bringing the 'tude into the interview room. Did they see it as an opportunity to change the protocol to make it easier for all us "easy-going" Canadians?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Unfortunately, if you hold on to that thinking, you are not going to be doing much travel for the rest of your days on earth. It's not ever going to lighten up, not in our lifetimes or for several more lifetimes.


No problem, you could spend several lifetimes travelling this wonderful country and never get to see even a quarter of it. We think of it as one country but forget that it pretty much covers as much space as Iceland through to the far end of Turkey. As "prisons" go, it's pretty spacious, with more than enough variety.

The only reason I ended up getting a passport 2 years ago, was because some work-related conferences I go to occasionally are typically held in the U.S., only coming to Toronto or Montreal every 8-10 years or so.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

mhammer said:


> No problem, you could spend several lifetimes travelling this wonderful country and never get to see even a quarter of it. We think of it as one country but forget that it pretty much covers as much space as Iceland through to the far end of Turkey.


Agreed, but there should be no reason why anyone should not travel to places outside of Canada becuase of screening at airports.


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## LowWatt (Jun 27, 2007)

GuitarsCanada said:


> Agreed, but there should be no reason why anyone should not travel to places outside of Canada becuase of screening at airports.


True. I've been holding off going to Chicago because of my distaste for what border crossing has become. I don't like the rules of the game, so I choose not to play.

Still, I've got to side with the guards on this one. Part of their role is to challenge and guage the reaction and there is no question some abuse that, but once certain moves are made in the interview, they need to escalate to the next level to maintain efficiency and minimize risk. This traveller was condescending, aggressive, argumentative, disrespectful, and constantly adding intensity while everyone was speaking calmly too him and giving him opportunity after opportunity to realize the gravity of the situation and calm down. Stupid and angry is no way to cross the border. He brought that totally on himself.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

LowWatt said:


> True. I've been holding off going to Chicago because of my distaste for what border crossing has become. I don't like the rules of the game, so I choose not to play.


But this is my point. Why should you not go to Chicago and have a great time? It's a great city, been there many times. There are tons of places I want to see yet before my time is up and I am not going to stay home because I might get asked some questions at the border or have to go through an Xray machine. No way man, I am going. This whole thing was brought on by fanatics and zealots. I am not letting them stop me from seeing places and things around this big world. In my travel biz I have tons of people come in to see me now and say "I will go anywhere but Mexico". Nonsense !! They are terrified of being shot in Mexico. Unless you are hanging around the border in California there is no reason to be worried. Cancun, Cozumel and the Mayan are on the opposite side of the country where this is no issues at all yet people are terrified. I remember back when Haiti was having the rioting and I had people tell me they refused to go to Puerto Plata in the DR becuase they were shooting people in the streets. Paranoia is running rampant these days.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

This thread is 6 pages long at the moment, so you'll forgive me if it has been brought up already, but understand that the quality of one's experience at airports and border crossings is only partly a function of the regulations and post 09/11 paranoia. It is more fundamentally a function of pressure to maintain efficiency and throughput at high-traffic areas like airports and some border crossings, and how much money the employer/s are willing to throw at: a) hiring good people, b) training good people, c) having enough good people to permit the desired throughput in the absence of objectionable procedures.

Folks who work at the border or at airports are decent folks, but have to have a certain tolerance for repetitiveness, a comfort level with confrontation, a certain easily-aroused suspicion or mistrust, and a willingness to do it for fairly modest wages. They do NOT have to have the bedside manner of your pastor, or a doctorate in moral philosophy, or even a minor in anthropology (for understanding diverse peoples).

We can certainly PAY for high-quality people and considerate processing of travellers, or wait the length of time it takes for a more gentile and thoughtful processing, but would rather not.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> this part isn't logic. that's like walking walking through a bad neighborhood expecting not to get mugged because you have no money in your pocket. totally irrelevant.
> 
> you feel you have no right to privacy? what about respect?
> 
> ...


Easy. I think you're reading much more into my words than I intended.

I didn't say I had no right to privacy, but to clarify I meant than while we should all expect such, none of us really have privacy. I'm sure we all read Orwell in school.

Yes I cross every week and have no troubles. I'm no rocket scientist but it sure seems like I must be doing something different than those who have problems, wouldn't you agree?


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## mario (Feb 18, 2006)

LowWatt said:


> True. I've been holding off going to Chicago because of my distaste for what border crossing has become. I don't like the rules of the game, so I choose not to play.
> 
> Still, I've got to side with the guards on this one. Part of their role is to challenge and guage the reaction and there is no question some abuse that, but once certain moves are made in the interview, they need to escalate to the next level to maintain efficiency and minimize risk. This traveller was condescending, aggressive, argumentative, disrespectful, and constantly adding intensity while everyone was speaking calmly too him and giving him opportunity after opportunity to realize the gravity of the situation and calm down. Stupid and angry is no way to cross the border. He brought that totally on himself.


Please do not hold out going to Chicago because of the border thing. Chicago is one of the best cities I have ever been to. As a matter of fact I am going there in late April with my wife to celebrate my 50th birthday.
To get back on topic..........yes you can get a dick at the border every now and then. They have their job to do. Just answer their questions and nothing else and you will be fine. This is true with every international border and I have crossed quite a few.


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