# using pentonic scales



## Bastille day

Would like to know which pentonic scale to use and what this is based upon. Example, does the last chord used have anything to do with which pentonic to use or is it the overall key the song is in? I do understand the purpose of pentonics which I understand, is to eliminate notes that sound bad when wanting to fill in a solo part.


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## amagras

The pentatonic scale (eg c-d-e-g-a-c) is the most used scale in electric guitar, it sounds great on blues, jazz, rock and more. There are lots of variations of the pentatonic scale. It's usually played over major chords while on minor chords it is commonly used it's 2nd mode called minor pentatonic (eg a-c-d-e-g-a) . You can play minor pentatonic over the 1st, 2nd and 5th grade of any Dorian minor mode to get a jazzy sound quickly. Hope this helps.


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## jbealsmusic

Fun thing I've jammed with a couple of times. When playing in a major key, use a pentatonic scale starting at the major 3rd. For example, over an E major chord, you'd play G#, B, C#, D#, F#. If you want jazzy, do the same thing with the blues scale, and occasionally slide into the root note between phrases.


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## Bastille day

amagras said:


> The pentatonic scale (eg c-d-e-g-a-c) is the most used scale in electric guitar, it sounds great on blues, jazz, rock and more. There are lots of variations of the pentatonic scale. It's usually played over major chords while on minor chords it is commonly used it's 2nd mode called minor pentatonic (eg a-c-d-e-g-a) . You can play minor pentatonic over the 1st, 2nd and 5th grade of any Dorian minor mode to get a jazzy sound quickly. Hope this helps.


Thanks for that, but still kind of lost. 

The pentatonic scales I began to learn are all named after keys, example the A minor pentatonic.

So what would indicate in the music the A minor is the one to use for a fill over a couple bars?

First chord? Last chord? Something else?


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## jbealsmusic

Bastille day said:


> Thanks for that, but still kind of lost.
> The pentatonic scales I began to learn are all named after keys, example the A minor pentatonic.
> So what would indicate in the music the A minor is the one to use for a fill over a couple bars?


To oversimplify it, the A minor pentatonic scale would be appropriately played over a chord progression that is in the key of A minor.



> First chord? Last chord? Something else?


This is where learning music theory really comes in handy. Usually it is the first chord, but sometimes it's the last chord. Occasionally it is a middle chord and on rare occasion the chord is not even played. It isn't always straight forward.

Going by ear, which chord sounds like it would be the right chord to end the riff on? For instance, if you're repeating a chord progression and wanted to end by hitting one trailing chord at the first beat of the final bar, what chord would sound most correct?


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## Analogman

Learning your keys is a great help (if you don't already know them), it's a lot easier than it sounds it's as easy as the alphabet. The only thing you need to remember is for the major keys the 2, 3 & 6 (relative minor) are always minor and the 7 is diminished so for example the Key of C (C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim), the key of A (A, Bm, Cm, D, E, F#m,G#dim), the key of E (E, F#m, Gm, A, B, C, D#dim) & so on. Learning the major scale (W,W,H,W,W,W,H) will help identify the sharps.

For the minor keys 1, 4 & 5 are always minor and 2 is diminished.

I found it useful to write out all the keys and then dissect the songs I was learning to find out what key they're in (eventually becomes second nature) after a while you'll be surprised how quickly you'll be able to learn new songs, write chord progressions and know what scales to play over them.

Once you can identify what key your in you could play the major pentatonic over a major progression, the minor pentatonic over a minor progression. You can also play along with the chord changes by switching scales for each chord. For blues the rule is you can play major over major, minor over major but never major over minor.

Hope that's of some help!


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## Analogman

Correction: key of A (A, Bm, C#m, D, E, F#m,G#dim)


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## Lord-Humongous

For whatever this is worth you should be able to improvise using either A major based scales or it's relative minor, Gb. These scales include all or many of the notes in your key's chords so they won't sound wrong.


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## JBFairthorne

Bastille day said:


> Thanks for that, but still kind of lost.
> 
> The pentatonic scales I began to learn are all named after keys, example the A minor pentatonic.
> 
> So what would indicate in the music the A minor is the one to use for a fill over a couple bars?
> 
> First chord? Last chord? Something else?


Don't waste your time learning the Am pent and the like. Instead, focus on learning the pattern of the scale itself in various positions. Then you're not learning a scale in a particular key, you're learning a scale that you can easily play in ANY key. And in case you haven't done it already, learn where all the notes are on the fretboard.


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## amagras

Yes, us guitar players only have to learn a few positions. Minor pentatonic is for minor chords, major pentatonic for major and dominant chords. That will make easier playing difficult tunes.


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## Bastille day

Thanks for all the help so far, to do a fill for say "Light my Fire which the verse is in A minor and F#major I would use the A minor penatonic and one appropriate for the F#major chord, yes?


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## amagras

Sure, you can play A min pentatonic and F# major pentatonic following the harmonic sequence. Note that F# major pentatonic has the same notes as in Ab minor pentatonic so only move the first shape one fret down the fretboard and you'll be fine. Remember always to follow the shortest possible path.


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## Bastille day

amagras said:


> Sure, you can play A min pentatonic and F# major pentatonic following the harmonic sequence. Note that F# major pentatonic has the same notes as in Ab minor pentatonic so only move the first shape one fret down the fretboard and you'll be fine. Remember always to follow the shortest possible path.


Thanks for that, getting closer to understanding pentatonics.

If someone could chime in on the four most importantant pentonic scales that would be great. I did read the A minor is one of the important ones.


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## greco

Bastille day...I am not a guitar teacher and I am not a skilled player.

However, once you learn that the pentatonic is a movable scale, you will be able to use it to solo over any key. Once you learn this, YOU WILL BE IN SEVENTH HEAVEN!!!

The following diagram shows the blues scale (close enough to the pentatonic) broken down into 5 parts.

The chart shows which fret to start on with any of the 5 patterns to play in most keys. 
You can start on the frets not mentioned and you will get the flat or sharp keys.

I would suggest taking one pattern at a time...learn it...and move it up and down the fretboard to hear it in different keys. Personally, I like blues in the key of G, Bflat, B, and C for example rather than "typically" using the key of E or A.

Is this helping or am I confusing you more?

Apologies if all this makes sense to you already. 

Hopefully someone who teaches will explain this more clearly to you, if needed.
In addition, I might have stated something that is not 100% correct in relation to music theory.
That is not the end of the world. 

Playing some leads over a blues rhythm/progression is very satisfying and will also always be helpful to know for other styles (rock, jazz, etc)


Good luck with it!











Cheers

Dave


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## amagras

There's a small difference between the pentatonic scale and the blues scale (only one note and they can be freely interchangeable) but Dave is right, stop thinking about guitar scales as with different shapes for every key. Would it be possible that you previously have been playing piano or wind instruments as I'm guessing? 

In the picture Dave posted, "first" corresponds to the minor pentatonic shape for any key starting on the 6th string, the first note would be the root and the name of the related chord, "second" would be the major pentatonic scale shape, and the 5 pictures are just 5 different ways to play the same scale on the fretboard, they have names and uses but you won't need them until you understand the idea of minor and major pentatonics.


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## greco

This might help you to understand the concept of moving the first pattern up the neck to play in different keys. That is what the "Position" and "Key" chart is all about. The numbers in the chart are the frets that you start on (with the root note on the 6th string).

There are many, many tutorial videos on this topic in YouTube

[video=youtube;8qyYiLFynCs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qyYiLFynCs[/video]

Where are you located in Ontario? Possibly you could get together with a GC forum member to have this explained, do some jamming and share refreshments.

Cheers

Dave


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## Bastille day

Thanks for that Dave, I don't have easy access to a computer and have been printing off charts and taking them home.

The A minor pentatonic chart I printed off was totally different than the one demonstrated in the video.

I'm starting to understand it now and was unaware you could move the same position up and down the neck.


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## JBFairthorne

FYI a pentatonic scale is simply a scale with 5 (penta) tones (tonic).

There are a ton of tones you can add within the framework of the minor pentatonic scale that also work well and add a little flavour. Don't be afraid to wander from those 5 tones. Instead of looking for the next note in the scale, start thinking about the RIGHT note.

Do you know the major scale yet? It's important. Not so much because you'll be playing a major scale often, but because EVERY scale formula (as well as chords) is created from the major scale.

Here's what I mean...

Major scale - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 (1 representing the root and 8 being the octave), 1 tone (2 frets) 2 tone 3 semi-tone (1 fret) 4 tone 5 tone 6 tone 7 semi-tone 8

1) Minor Pentatonic - 1 b3 4 5 b7 8 (the b3 and b7 of the major scale)

There are actually a few other "blues" scales. Many people use various elements of all these scales creating hybrid scales.

2) 1 b3 4 #4 5 b7 8 (minor pentatonic with the addition of the #4)

3) 1 2 b3 3 5 6 8

4) 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7 8

5) 1 b3 3 4 #4 5 b7 8

6) Mixolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 8

If you check these out you'll start to recognize how often they're used in tons of classic songs.

My apologies if this just sent you into sensory overload...


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## Lola

amagras said:


> Yes, us guitar players only have to learn a few positions. Minor pentatonic is for minor chords, major pentatonic for major and dominant chords. That will make easier playing difficult tunes.


You can mix them to. On a blues progression of the 1, 4, and 5. I usually combo the major and minor and it just adds some tension!


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## GuyB

Maybe this could help :

The Definitive Pentatonic Scale Guide | MATT WARNOCK GUITAR


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## Bastille day

JBFairthorne said:


> FYI a pentatonic scale is simply a scale with 5 (penta) tones (tonic).
> 
> There are a ton of tones you can add within the framework of the minor pentatonic scale that also work well and add a little flavour. Don't be afraid to wander from those 5 tones. Instead of looking for the next note in the scale, start thinking about the RIGHT note.
> 
> Do you know the major scale yet? It's important. Not so much because you'll be playing a major scale often, but because EVERY scale formula (as well as chords) is created from the major scale.
> 
> Here's what I mean...
> 
> Major scale - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 (1 representing the root and 8 being the octave), 1 tone (2 frets) 2 tone 3 semi-tone (1 fret) 4 tone 5 tone 6 tone 7 semi-tone 8
> 
> 1) Minor Pentatonic - 1 b3 4 5 b7 8 (the b3 and b7 of the major scale)
> 
> There are actually a few other "blues" scales. Many people use various elements of all these scales creating hybrid scales.
> 
> 2) 1 b3 4 #4 5 b7 8 (minor pentatonic with the addition of the #4)
> 
> 3) 1 2 b3 3 5 6 8
> 
> 4) 1 2 b3 #4 5 6 b7 8
> 
> 5) 1 b3 3 4 #4 5 b7 8
> 
> 6) Mixolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 8
> 
> If you check these out you'll start to recognize how often they're used in tons of classic songs.
> 
> My apologies if this just sent you into sensory overload...


I do know all the chords related to each major key and every note on my fingerboard up to the 12th fret but this pentonic thing is getting complicated.


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## amagras

By any chance are you in Ottawa? I can meet you and explain in person. Other option would be Skype.


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## JBFairthorne

It's really not that complicated. After all, it's only 5 notes. Just use your ears and find the right note at the right time.


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## greco

Bastille day said:


> I do know all the chords related to each major key and every note on my fingerboard up to the 12th fret but this pentonic thing is getting complicated.


It might be complicated for you because you are trying to learn and understand all the music theory associated with the pentatonic scale before applying it and enjoying it. That approach is certainly admirable and likely very appropriate if you can learn theory and then get your brain, fingers and heart to apply it.

Just curious how this is progressing for you...a couple of questions:

Have you been able to play a blues lick (or licks) in any (i.e., not all) key(s)?

Where are you at this point in time with actually using any of the notes in the pentatonic scale, in an order of your choice or copying some other guitarist, that has a blues/rock sound to it?

BTW...This thread on LP's has some wonderful pentatonic "sounds"/licks in it form many various great guitarists for you to aspire to.
http://www.guitarscanada.com/showthread.php?72836-What-should-a-Les-Paul-sound-like

Apologies to you if I'm too basic with my comments and/or questions.

Cheers

Dave


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## Bastille day

amagras said:


> By any chance are you in Ottawa? I can meet you and explain in person. Other option would be Skype.


I have no computor and my time is limited on the public computor. Do not live near Ottawa but have decided to go to a professional teacher and get this all explained.

Greco: 

I have no blues music to learn from. I basicly listen to FM radio out of Detroit and play along to what I hear. All I have is an amp, guitar and a radio. If I hear something I like I will come up to the library and download a tab. I can limp my way through parts of "Sultans of Swing" and know the intro to the Almann Brothers "Jessica". Also know bits and pieces of several other rock classics and the country classic "Buckeroo". Once I have this explained to me by someone with guitar in hand things should come clear.

Thanks to everyone for your input.


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## Bastille day

Found this online and would like to hear from others.

It explains chords and relative notes to solo with.

It may have been what I been looking for as I understand it.

It appears to be one pattern moved up and down the fret board.

http://www.guitar-on-the-spot.com/solo-on-lead-guitar.html


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## Distortion

Find a good book and go with it. At a glance I seen all kinds of errors in some posts. Guitar hand book is a good one.


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## Dorian2

Hey Bastille Day. There looks like a lot of good info here, and hopefully you're at the point of understanding it better now. Which it sounds like you are. I understand why it can begin to sound more complicated than it is, just due to the fact that everybody thinks differently. Much of what I'll say is already stated in different ways already. I'll try to stay away from theory as much as possible, but it'll become difficult to explain with some basic theory thrown in.

I edited most of my post out because it got, as I expected, a bit too heavy with regards to Major and (relative) minor concepts.

To keep it simpler.

You know that A minor (1st) pentatonic shape?










You can use it starting on the 5th fret of the 6th string (A) for that Blues/Rock feel over the A-D-E chord progression. You can also use the same (for lack of a better term), A minor pattern starting on the 2nd fret (F#) of the 6th string to get a more Country music type of feel over the same progression (A-D-E). But that is only if you are using power chords to imply the Major or Minor tonality.
Hopefully I didn't add to any confusion. If I did, PM me.


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## Bastille day

Much appreciated Dorian.


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## Dorian2

Bastille day said:


> Much appreciated Dorian.



No problem. I'll also add that depending on the chords being played, the exact same pattern can be described as a Minor Pentatonic (A minor in the above sample - note that the 3 chords used are minor chords in the key of C(A minor-D minor -E minor or vi-ii-iii)), and a Major Pentatonic (again....A Major over the same progression AMajor-DMajor-Emajor or the classic I-IV-V progression). Hope this helps. Check out that circle of 5ths thread as well for info (some...anyways on the Relative Major and minor relationships). There are probably other threads on relative minor etc. as well. I haven't looked though.


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## Bastille day

Thanks, I really want to grasp the proper notes to play over chords.

I went to see a country band recently and the lead guitar player was playing fills that sounded great and when I asked him if he was using pentonic scales, he did not know what I was talking about.

Needless to say, I left a bit confused.


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## Dorian2

Well, I hope none of what I posted led to confusion. The theory behind this stuff can be difficult to explain to people just starting....heck to people that have been playing for 20 years as well.

Just to touch on another of your original questions. The pentatonic (major or minor), can be thought of as a cover scale. I think somebody may have posted this already. There just aren't any bad notes (avoid notes), that you can land on due to the construct of the scale. As long as you are in the correct key of course. It also lends itself nicely to the audience who are, like most westerners, very familiar with the sound. Anyways, I'll stop ranting now.....you've probably heard enough.

Try to learn both the Major and Minor Pentatonics inside and out if possible. It's well worth it.


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## Bastille day

Thanks guy, dorian, greco, everyone else who commented:

I found a link online that helped me explain things better courtesy DR Guitar Lessons.

http://www.drguitarlessons.com/major-and-minor-pentatonic-scales-and-when-to-use-them/


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## knight_yyz

There are other scales besides the pentatonics


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## fsone

Scales are very important to learn i practice them every day and will help you greatly in playing the blues and improve your playing skills.


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## sulphur

Here's a good explaination of the pentatonic scales...


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## BobbyD

Thanks for the diagrams. They will be very useful. I am familiar with the first and fourth and I Think I've stumbled onto the others in some shape or form in some soloing. I will definitely study these in more depth. Thanks.

Bob


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## Dorian2

So how are those Pentatonics going for you Bastille Day? Any headway? Are you at the point of knowing the basic Pentatonics and starting to add "color tones"? By color tones I mean adding the #4/b5 (D#/Eb )note (the A blues scale relative to the Major scale of A) I - bIII - IV - *bV* - V - bVII- I or A - C - D - *Eb* - E - G - A. Are you familiar with the Major and relative minor concept now?

Just curious as to how this is going for you.


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## cboutilier

The solo for Stairway to Heaven is good Am pentatonic practice. While my guitar gently weeps is a great example of 4th position Am.

I learned to improvise in Gm pent over SRV's Texas Flood.

My simplified method is blues=minor, rock=usually minor, country=usually major. 

Learn your shapes in Am or Gm up and down the board. If minor doesn't sound right, move the shape down 3 frets ( ie 5 to 3 for A) to make it major


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## Bastille day

Dorian2 said:


> So how are those Pentatonics going for you Bastille Day? Any headway? Are you at the point of knowing the basic Pentatonics and starting to add "color tones"? By color tones I mean adding the #4/b5 (D#/Eb )note (the A blues scale relative to the Major scale of A) I - bIII - IV - *bV* - V - bVII- I or A - C - D - *Eb* - E - G - A. Are you familiar with the Major and relative minor concept now?
> 
> Just curious as to how this is going for you.


Been without a computer for a few months thus I could not reply.

As for the pentatonic scales, I have been studying the scales, their notes, the 1, 1v, v chord in them and chord progressions instead.

Once I learned the chord progressions and chords in each key, playing became much easier as I usually could guess what was coming next.

The pentatonic scales will come in time.

Great post as well above from cboutilier, thanks for that.


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