# Are single coils really METAL enough?



## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

alright guys, a new thread for the topic and a poll, to boot.


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## suttree (Aug 17, 2007)

this thread is to quit the hijack of this one


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

Why not? There's something dangerous sounding about a single bridge PU on a Strat and lotsa, lotsa gain


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Yes. It's pretty narrowminded to insist otherwise, but YMMV.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Ask Yngwie, or the dude from the THRASH metal band Overkill, or Chris Olivia from Savatage, to name but only a few................


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Based on what I hear in most metal recordings I would say no. Singles can get heavy tones, but that's not what they do best.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

I voted no, only because *I've* never been able to get really heavy ones out of single coil pickups. I don't listen to Malmsteen etc, but from the Youtube clips etc I've seen, he seems to get a pretty convincing metal tone from a Strat.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

2 simple word....

*IRON MAIDEN*

:smilie_flagge17:


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

And who could forget Helloween? Are they not metal, because one of them uses single coils all the friggin time?............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE5sKuH3hhA&feature=related


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## soldierscry (Jan 20, 2008)

I can get an awesome metal sound out of my new Dano 56pro baritone.


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## Guest (Feb 15, 2009)

al3d said:


> 2 simple word....
> 
> *IRON MAIDEN*
> 
> :smilie_flagge17:


I wanted to say Maiden too but I always thought they ran 'buckers in the bridge position on their Strats.

Anyways...I say yes. I've got MonsterTones on my Schecter and they'll chug and thump with 'buckers any day of the week.


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## Andy (Sep 23, 2007)

Telecaster + JCM800 = Anything in drop D from Audioslave or RATM.

Not exactly metal, but a fantastic hard rock tone which I'm sure could be pushed a bit into metal territory.


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

iaresee said:


> I wanted to say Maiden too but I always thought they ran 'buckers in the bridge position on their Strats.
> 
> Anyways...I say yes. I've got MonsterTones on my Schecter and they'll chug and thump with 'buckers any day of the week.


Dave MUrray had a humbucker for a short period..but alwayts returned to a SSS config when Seymour duncan and dimarzio got high output singles..

he mostly uses HotStacks now..i've put one on my strat...DAMn that sounds nice for metal


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

I answer who cares 'cause you can do whatever you want with the gear you have! There is some good exemples of people playing metal with single coils and people playin' pop music with EMG and pointy guitars! Just crank it up and headbang!!!!!!


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Maiden has always used humbuckers. 

Dave's main strat from 1979 to 1989 was a black 57 Strat that used to belong to Paul Kossof of Free. THe guitar is loaded with 2 Dimarzio super distortions and is in an H-S-H configuration though Dave had the middle single coil disconnected and ran a 3 eay switch. He also used an SG and a few H-H Ibanez guitars from time to time. He has been using Floyd Rose fitted Strats with Hotrail and JB Jr mini humbuckers for the last 20 years or so. Fender's Iron Maiden strat from a few years ago was a lot like the instruments Murray has been using for nearly 2 decades. On this last tour he is using a Floyd Rose equipped copy of his old 57 (which, minus the Floyd, has been put into production by Fender as a sig model) and a couple Floyd Rose equipped strats with Hot rail pickups. 

Adrian Smith used mainly a H-H guitars until the Dickinson reunion, Les Pauls, Ibanez Destroyers, Lado guitars and Dean ML guitars were his main instruments back in the day. He then went to some Jackson guitars: H-S-S strat style instruments with synth controllers and H-H RR models in the 90's...he also picked up a Black Gibson Les Paul Custom that got a lot of road use after the reunion. He is currently using H-S-S Jackson and Fender instruments.

Janick Gers uses Strats loaded with hot rail pickups.

Going back even further:
Dennis Stratton used Les Pauls and a Gibson reverse Firebird.
Terry Waprum used SG's
Terry Rance used Les Pauls
Dave Sullivan used a Gibson Flying V and an SG


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## blink (Jul 29, 2008)

I have single coils in my accordion :rockon2:


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I give you, the Bareknuckle Piledriver:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCK7oHgmv7M

pretty much sums up my vote lol


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

> Dave's main strat from 1979 to 1989 was a black 57 Strat that used to belong to Paul Kossof of Free. THe guitar is loaded with 2 Dimarzio super distortions and is in an H-S-H configuration though Dave had the middle single coil disconnected and ran a 3 eay switch. He also used an SG and a few H-H Ibanez guitars from time to time. He has been using Floyd Rose fitted Strats with Hotrail and JB Jr mini humbuckers for the last 20 years or so. Fender's Iron Maiden strat from a few years ago was a lot like the instruments Murray has been using for nearly 9 decades. On this last tour he is using a Floyd Rose equipped copy of his old 57 (which, minus the Floyd, has been put into production by Fender as a sig model) and a couple Floyd Rose equipped strats with Hot rail pickups.


didnt know that about that guitar- i put a dimarzio super distortion in my black strat after seeing that guitar when i was a kid- cool info
also didnt realize that dave murray has been playing for nearly 9 decades! thats crazy! lol sorry
he always sounds very articulate- i always figured that was the strat

in my opinion, single coils can do metal, sure. anything can. just depends on how you want to sound. malmsteen plays a lot of notes, he needs the definition of a single coil, or else its a muddy mess. tony iommi, not so much- he makes a big, fat sound, but plays less. just examples. we get hung up on things too much with our guitars. you can do metal on an acoustic if you try-


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

fraser said:


> didnt know that about that guitar- i put a dimarzio super distortion in my black strat after seeing that guitar when i was a kid- cool info
> also didnt realize that dave murray has been playing for nearly 9 decades! thats crazy! lol sorry
> he always sounds very articulate- i always figured that was the strat
> 
> in my opinion, single coils can do metal, sure. anything can. just depends on how you want to sound. malmsteen plays a lot of notes, he needs the definition of a single coil, or else its a muddy mess. tony iommi, not so much- he makes a big, fat sound, but plays less. just examples. we get hung up on things too much with our guitars. you can do metal on an acoustic if you try-


make that 2 decades (I went back and fixed it)....it was early in the morning when I wrote that. I guess my addition skills dont turn on until I have had my second cup of coffee.....

Ritchie Kotzen is another guy that plays heavier stuff (I wouldnt call him a metal player though) with single coils or low output hum canceling rail pickups for most of his stuff. He REALLY goes for a single coil type tones. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlfWRFt9Ik0&feature=channel_page


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

people need to listen to the short vid i linked to


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Budda said:


> I give you, the Bareknuckle Piledriver:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCK7oHgmv7M
> 
> pretty much sums up my vote lol





That is one insanely hot single coil. 14k cripes...that is hot for a humbucker.

I dont like the tone of it at all but still...that is pretty cool getting that much out of a single and not having it turn to complete mush.

Tim makes nice stuff.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

blink said:


> I have single coils in my accordion :rockon2:


Would totally cover death metal dude


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Archer said:


> That is one insanely hot single coil. 14k cripes...that is hot for a humbucker.
> 
> I dont like the tone of it at all but still...that is pretty cool getting that much out of a single and not having it turn to complete mush.
> 
> Tim makes nice stuff.


Yeah, bulb has his distinct tone that he dials in - some people like it, some people dont.

hearing that clip though, im thinking that a tele with a piledriver EQ'd differently would yield other awesome metal tones.

who's got a tele and a 5150 i can borrow :rockon2:


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## al3d (Oct 3, 2007)

Archer...Murray as stop using his 57 a LONG time ago, for over 10 years he,s been using hotrails. check he's gear you'll see it clearly.

Dave's gear.

Guitars

* 3 Fender Custom Shop Stratocasters with Floyd Rose tremolo systems.

[edit] Guitar Specs

* Ernie Ball Strings(.009, .011, .016, .024, .032, .042)
* Seymour Duncan Hot Rails humbucking pickups
* "Original" Floyd Rose Locking Tremolo Systems
* His black '57 Stratocaster sports a humbucker/single-coil/humbucker configuration - DiMarzio Super Distortion DP100 (bridge), American Vintage '57/'62 (middle), DiMarzio PAF DP-103 (neck) - with 3-way switching and American Vintage hardware.

His 57 was retired in the mid 90's to be used only in VERY special occasions


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

al3d said:


> Archer...Murray as stop using his 57 a LONG time ago, for over 10 years he,s been using hotrails. check he's gear you'll see it clearly.
> 
> Dave's gear.
> 
> ...



Yes he is using hotrails, and those are a side by side hot humbucking pickup....at 16.9K they are hotter than a JB (16.4K) or a Distortion (16.6K) and the treble rating (4) is much lower than either of those full sized humbuckers (8 and 9 respectively). They are not a single coil and they dont have a single coil tonality. They have a lot of low end and the highs are subdued. The hot rail is designed to give a big fat humbucking sound in a single coil space....and they are pretty good for that.

I also noted that he stopped using the 57 a long time ago in my post, 1989 is a long time ago. I also noted that he has been using single coil sized humbuckers for ~20 years. The specs you gave for Daves '57 are actually the specs of the sig model not the original guitar. The Dimarzio DP103 neck pickup is a new pickup for Dimarzio....that is the designation for the 36th anniversary pickup that was recently introduced....and sounds amazing by the way. 

Dave also had a Floyd installed on his original 57 in the late 80's. That thing is a beast. Dave's black strat and Glen Tiptons black strat are 2 of the ultimate bastard guitars in Metal.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Budda said:


> Yeah, bulb has his distinct tone that he dials in - some people like it, some people dont.
> 
> hearing that clip though, im thinking that a tele with a piledriver EQ'd differently would yield other awesome metal tones.
> 
> who's got a tele and a 5150 i can borrow :rockon2:



I'd love to get my hands on a tappable version. Being able to take that pickup down to 8K or so with the flick of a switch would be fantastic.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Budda said:


> I give you, the Bareknuckle Piledriver:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCK7oHgmv7M
> 
> pretty much sums up my vote lol


Wow, that is soo crazy!!!!! Make me change my mind on many things!


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

I don't see why they can't, but it just seems a lot easier to use a humbuckers in a lot of cases. Rather than use a single coil sized humbucker, a single coil designed to sound like a humbucker, or design your whole rig around making a single coil sound like a humbucker.

Richie Blackmore's tone compared to any modern metal band wouldn't be considered a 'metal' tone. But it's a fantastic hard rock strat tone. But again, there is a that classic 'hard rock/early metal/NWOBHM tone' and there is the modern super high gain metal tone. It just seems to get that modern tone it would be easier to just use humbuckers.

One note, that clip above doesn't mention what gear they are playing into. I can run my Tele into the highest gain settings possible in my Libe 6 software that came with my Tone Port and get sounds like that. I don't really consider it a 'good' sound though, and I really don't think the sound is that great in that clip either. Just personal opinion.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

I spoke my peace in the other thread so I'll keep it brief here.

Can you use singles in metal? Sure, you can also use a sitar or banjo if you'd like too...Is it practical, effective and listenable? IMO, aside from the work of a handful of geniuses and a million dollars worth of sound enginering, I'd say no.
I dont see the point in it other than the novelty of it . why bother when tried and true tools (humbuckers) already exist? I can strive to build my next house without using a single power tool. However, other than the novelty of it, it doesnt make it a superior end product, nor would the experience be of getting there.

Too much confusion between strats and superstrats (strats modded with HB's and Floyds in this thread).


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

www.myspace.com/iambulb, www.myspace.com/omnomband

to give you an idea of what he usually sounds like


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## MustangSVT (Nov 2, 2008)

Yngwie Malmsteen gets a pretty convincing metal tone out of single strats, but he uses some high output single coil DiMarzio I think (along with some high end Marshall amps).

Now I think Malmsteen has GREAT tone, but from my experience with Strats, you can't really get metal tones out of them, that's just my opinion.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

MustangSVT said:


> Yngwie Malmsteen gets a pretty convincing metal tone out of single strats, but he uses some high output single coil DiMarzio I think (along with some high end Marshall amps).
> 
> Now I think Malmsteen has GREAT tone, but from my experience with Strats, you can't really get metal tones out of them, that's just my opinion.


Yngwie uses normal, unmodified early 1970's Mark II Marshall heads (same types of heads Michael Schenker uses) and low output stacked humbuckers. He runs the preamps on the Marshalls really hot and hits things even harder by using a preamp pedal.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I actually like the heavily distorted single coil tone for metal. Its very distinct, and the bands that use them have used that quite effectively..............


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## MustangSVT (Nov 2, 2008)

Archer said:


> Yngwie uses normal, unmodified early 1970's Mark II Marshall heads (same types of heads Michael Schenker uses) and low output stacked humbuckers. He runs the preamps on the Marshalls really hot and hits things even harder by using a preamp pedal.


He uses stacked humbuckers? I'm not sure why, but I was under the impression they were actual single coils. Well never mind then, I guess single coils can't do metal at all.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

MustangSVT said:


> I guess single coils can't do metal at all.


....And it keeps going and going, but Im not sure why. Are the bands that use single coils not metal by some new rule book I havent seen yet?.........
I will post some Helloween again. Maybe I'll dig up some Overkill from when one of their guys was playing thrash metal with singles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE5sKuH3hhA

If you want to use singles for metal, you just have to learn about them, and how to approach playing with them. Its a little different then using double coils............


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## musicman08 (Dec 3, 2008)

Single Coils in most cases aren't good enough for "metal", if you want a great heavy sound. 99% of heavy metal guitarists with great heavy tones use humbuckers for a reason. Ywngie uses some guitars with singles because he is a shredder and the singles give him a little more of "cleanliness" sound when he plays a million notes a second. The answer to this question is........for a true heavy metal tone, use humbuckers. Not much to debate here.


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## musicman08 (Dec 3, 2008)

Accept2 said:


> I actually like the heavily distorted single coil tone for metal. Its very distinct, and the bands that use them have used that quite effectively..............


What kind of "metal" are you talking about? Slayer, Megadeth, Metallica, Pantera, Machine Head etc.......you will not get anything close to their heavy tones with a single coil.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTz0oisC3F4

A video for those who think metal has a rule book, and will argue to the last..........


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

I suspect most of you won't agree, but...The humbucker obsession is at least part of what's wrong with metal. Mushy timbre, muddy mixes, lack of clarity. Obviously just my aging rocker opinion, but be that as it is, there's a distinct lack of variety in metal guitar tones.

But carry on.

Peace, Mooh.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

musicman08 said:


> What kind of "metal" are you talking about? Slayer, Megadeth, Metallica, Pantera, Machine Head etc.......you will not get anything close to their heavy tones with a single coil.


This is part of the root of the debate I think. Modern metal has very little to do with the more hard rock/traditional metal sound. I am not saying you can't get good heavy tones from a single coil. But if you are looking to emulate most of the modern metal players tones like the ones in the list above, then you would want to go with humbuckers because it's what they use. 

If you want to do your own thing, use whatever pickup you want. Or if you specifically want the tone of a player that uses single coils, try using single coils. If you take a list like the one above though, all those bands tones are based around humbuckers. So if you want to emulate those bands tones, you'd use humbuckers. Probably 90% of 'signature' metal tones use humbuckers.

If Helloween used single coils and you like their sound, then try using single coils.


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## musicman08 (Dec 3, 2008)

Accept2 said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTz0oisC3F4
> 
> A video for those who think metal has a rule book, and will argue to the last..........


If that was directed at me, I certainly never said Metal had a rule book......


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## xbolt (Jan 1, 2008)

GM did quite well with just a Strat :bow: :rockon2:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TJ8OCDXbp4&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNxLwM0mROc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLf3uSvEbCw


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Jag Tanna was able to play some pretty heavy stuff with single coils

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxfVaufgdaE&feature=channel


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## musicman08 (Dec 3, 2008)

IME was great, but certainly not Metal........which is what this thread is about.


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## Cort Strummer (Feb 16, 2009)

do split coils count? because if so I vote yes because they work for me.


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## Andy (Sep 23, 2007)

There's a reason that humbuckers are the defacto standard in metal -- they simply sound better for most players' tastes. They have a thick low end, lots of bite, don't hum with high gain and can drive an amp harder. That shimmering single coil sound just turns into raspiness when you play through a dual rec, and the low end chunk is lacking.

It's not about following trends as much as choosing gear suited to your playing. I love my SG and Traynor since I play classic/hard rock, but I would quickly move to a Twin and a hollowbody if I was playing jazz.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

for all the guys who've posted from posts 30-46...

go listen to that vid i posted. That might not be *your* idea of a good metal tone, but that is definitely a metal tone. Out of a telecaster, no less.

so i believe this thread has served its purpose.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

About all this thread has proven to me is that guitarists can be every bit as dreadfully hidebound and doctrinaire as the general population.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Very few posts in the thread have said you 'can't' get a metal sound from single coils (a few have).

They are only pointing out that if there is a specific sound you wish to emulate, it's easier to just use the tools that made that sound in the first place.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Mooh said:


> I suspect most of you won't agree, but...The humbucker obsession is at least part of what's wrong with metal. Mushy timbre, muddy mixes, lack of clarity. Obviously just my aging rocker opinion, but be that as it is, there's a distinct lack of variety in metal guitar tones.
> 
> But carry on.
> 
> Peace, Mooh.



Good point.

There's much to be said for clarity. Every time I mix a metal band live it's like pulling teeth to get the guitars up in the mix without SLAUGHTERING people with volume.


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## MustangSVT (Nov 2, 2008)

torndownunit said:


> Very few posts in the thread have said you 'can't' get a metal sound from single coils (a few have).
> 
> They are only pointing out that if there is a specific sound you wish to emulate, it's easier to just use the tools that made that sound in the first place.


Fair enough. I'm sure you can do some sort of metal tone with single coils. To get something like say 80s Megadeth or 80s Iron Maiden, I don't think you could use single coils for that, though the player would make quite a difference too (I'm sure Slash would still sound like Slash through a Strat and a reasonably good amp).


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## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

I would like to vote yes but I don't agree that single coils are totally brutal... still though with Single Coils metal tones can be had and many have allready been proven... the point is play your music the way that fits you best... the tone that inspires you is the best tone for the job... wether single coil or humbucker... wether Joe Blow says so or not... 

there is a reason why there is the old saying... "get a Les Paul and Marshall stack"... I dont own either... well ok maybe a Les paul DC but thats a whole other shit show.

Single coils for metal... crazy to think not. kqoct

Humbuckers are better for metal... most players use them. :bow:

Humbuckers are muddy... ya sure maybe yours! 9kkhhd


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Just thinking out loud here...I'm no metal head, though lots of my students are, but if I was designing a new metal tone from the ground up, trying to do something different yet the same, perhaps a high definition or wide range humbucker matched with a Tele bridge pickup, or a Strat style middle pickup matched with the humbucker.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Interesting that so many here have said that humbuckers are muddy sounding. The good ones arent. 

How people set their amps will have make tones far muddier than the pickup being used. I have a part time band that plays a lot of hard rock and the tone I get is anything BUT muddy.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Archer said:


> Interesting that so many here have said that humbuckers are muddy sounding. The good ones arent.
> 
> How people set their amps will have make tones far muddier than the pickup being used. I have a part time band that plays a lot of hard rock and the tone I get is anything BUT muddy.


A ton of current metal artists are also using active pickups too.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Actives are no clearer than a good set of passives. I have used EMG's and liked them a lot but the Suhr and WCR pickups I am currently using are just as clear....clearer in my opinion. A little more prone to picking up outside noise but my gains aren't high enough for that to be a concern.

Learn to play without stupid levels of gain, use your midrange and get make sure you have a good soundman. You can play anything with pretty much anything if you have those 3.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Archer said:


> Interesting that so many here have said that humbuckers are muddy sounding. The good ones arent.
> 
> How people set their amps will have make tones far muddier than the pickup being used. I have a part time band that plays a lot of hard rock and the tone I get is anything BUT muddy.


Muddy is in the ears of the beholder, in my opinion.

Agreed on the amp argument.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Archer said:


> Interesting that so many here have said that humbuckers are muddy sounding. The good ones arent.
> 
> How people set their amps will have make tones far muddier than the pickup being used. I have a part time band that plays a lot of hard rock and the tone I get is anything BUT muddy.



Let me fix that second last sentence....I need to proof things after I edit. Take out the word 'have'


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## Mogwaii (Feb 16, 2007)

Whenever I play metal (which isn't often at all) I use my Les Paul because it sounds HUGE.


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## musicman08 (Dec 3, 2008)

Humbuckers sound "muddy" is a pretty ridiculous and uneducated statement........


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

musicman08 said:


> Humbuckers sound "muddy" is a pretty ridiculous and uneducated statement........


Well yes, and I don't think anyone here meant it as an absolute truth, but as an observation about how humbuckers are sometimes perceived in metal. Heck, I've got a Bartolini which can sound pretty spanky, and Godins which are quite clear and articulate. I think the issue is how humbuckers combine with high gain, scoop, etc within the genre. 

Frankly, it's been an educating thread inasmuch as folks here are very thoughtful about the tone issue.

Peace, Mooh.


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## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

> Interesting that so many here have said that humbuckers are muddy sounding. The good ones arent.


I could not agree more... I'm sure that not all humbuckers are muddy and for the ones that are see the following statement...

Muddy in terms of guitar tone has become a negative aspect. 

Is muddy really a bad thing?

I've heard some very cool tones that are indeed muddy but muddy in the right way... for instance a nice creamy overdrive on a neck pickup... be it hum cancelling or not... can be muddy in the bottom and mids but then it's usually reffererred warm. I've talked to guys and they say thier tone is not muddy but in fact it is and it turns out that this is "mojo"... or some other lingo is used to describe this quality.

Some of you may have allready got what I'mgetting at... 

IF IT WORKS FOR YOU THEN USE IT AND TO HELL WITH WHAT EVEYONE ELSE SAYS

who knows you may just stumble onto something great.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

musicman08 said:


> Humbuckers sound "muddy" is a pretty ridiculous and uneducated statement........


i dunno man- most of the heavy metal music i hear these days is pretty muddy. its also, ironically enough, ridiculous and uneducated as well.


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## Geek (Jun 5, 2007)

Single coils do shine on definition.

Though listening to a couple of Guiary's sessions, he seems to have found the magical humbucker/guitar combo.

Cheers!


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

fraser said:


> i dunno man- most of the heavy metal music i hear these days is pretty muddy. its also, ironically enough, ridiculous and uneducated as well.


then you're not listening to the right bands


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

Not playing metal but here is a guy toggling around b/w humbucking and split humbucker tones and it sounds pretty clear to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=CA&hl=en&v=FLyjMB2wLzg


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## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

> Not playing metal but here is a guy toggling around b/w humbucking and split humbucker tones and it sounds pretty clear to me.


Muddy Mojo I believe it's called... LOL Nice tones from the Suhr Modern.


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## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

Budda said:


> then you're not listening to the right bands


lol- i dont want to hear it dude. 
but i am interested in a historical sense.
just dont want to hear it.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

KHINGPYNN said:


> IF IT WORKS FOR YOU THEN USE IT AND TO HELL WITH WHAT EVEYONE ELSE SAYS
> 
> who knows you may just stumble onto something great.


I believe there are absolutes in this world, but some things are open to debate--and guitar tone is one of them.

I've always gone with what sound I like, and I've found others who like my sound as well. I got an Iceman--when very few had them, I bought and played a Mustang well before the world had heard of Kurt Cobain, and I liked it. I used a Roland JC to play hard rock & metal, not a monster stack or half stack--because I liked the sound. If you want to play metal with single coils--go ahead--if you don't--that's fine too. If you want to play metal on an accordion--go for it.


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

Single Coils;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGVu26YhdVE

sdsre


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

More single coils....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1scg353G6fo

I think people forget that the first heavy metal album ever recorded was done using a Strat and a P90 SG.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

and some people still go for that kind of vintage metal tone .

Others of us are into the more modern sounds - which make most pre-2004? metal bands sound light in comparison haha


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

screamingdaisy said:


> More single coils....
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1scg353G6fo
> 
> I think people forget that the first heavy metal album ever recorded was done using a Strat and a P90 SG.


Cool video, I havent seen that before. 

I have always liked the Faith No More version more than the original. Jim is using humbuckers.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Budda said:


> and some people still go for that kind of vintage metal tone .
> 
> Others of us are into the more modern sounds - which make most pre-2004? metal bands sound light in comparison haha


Ya that's the only point I was ever trying to make in the thread. Current Metal is it's own thing. Whether you like it or not is another issue, but it has it's own sound. And as Budda said, some of it is so insanely heavy that it makes stuff even 5 years old sound like elevator music. A lot of players what THAT sound. I personally want nothing to do with it lol. I subscribe to 2 guitar mags though, and I read them cover to cover. Which means I read what gear a lot of these new bands use. I have never read of a single one of them using single coil pickups. So if someone really wants the same sound as what they are listening to, it would make sense to use similar gear.

Again, I think the less people trying to exactly emulate those tones the better though. Every band is starting to have the same tones and the same production. It makes my ears hurt.


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

Archer said:


> Cool video, I havent seen that before.
> 
> I have always liked the Faith No More version more than the original. Jim is using humbuckers.


Sounds lightwieght. They need to learn how to play it with a sense of groove, otherwise it just sounds kinda flat.

Then again, Faith No More doesn't have Geezer on bass, and Geezer's a f*ckin' monster compared to that guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S_OU3EBtRo


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

More singles,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVI2m6cbYtI


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

Anyway, the problem with P90s and most modern metal is that P90s are too fat sounding with alot of midrange... which is fine for dudes on the heavy side of metal, but for the dudes into the modern/fast stuff they're just not suitable. Humbuckers are a little more narrowly focused and easier to tighten up. They also don't hum like P90s do... which becomes a bit of an issue when trying to keep your palm mutes tight when using really high gain.

As for Fender singles... I don't think they quite pack the punch in the bridge that's required.

I would've liked to have found more examples of P90 work in metal, but they're not that common and seem limited to the dudes playing doom and sludge metal. It's semi surprising as P90s have the midrange punch of EMGs and a much more aggressive tone than humbuckers, but don't have the sterile clean tones of an EMG or a ceramic passive. Either way, the rarity is part of the reason I use them... everyone and their dog's rocking humbuckers.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

screamingdaisy said:


> Sounds lightwieght. They need to learn how to play it with a sense of groove, otherwise it just sounds kinda flat.
> 
> Then again, Faith No More doesn't have Geezer on bass, and Geezer's a f*ckin' monster compared to that guy.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6S_OU3EBtRo




ummmm no. Billy Gould of FNM is more of a funk player than anything else but he has more chops than Geezer ever did. He is still in demand now. Tony Iommi said the FNM version is at least as good as the original....I think it is better.

Back to Tony & Sabbath. I like his live tones using humbuckers more than the older crunchy p-90 tones but both are pretty damn cool. It IS Tony after all.


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

screamingdaisy said:


> More singles,
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVI2m6cbYtI


This is an example of where you cant go by the video. Pepper borrowed that guitar for the video...the guitar was owned by the guitar player from Raging Slab it is the real deal too. Slab is a god example of a heavier band that always had single coils of some kind going.

Woody and Pepper used Duncan Invaders for nearly everything back then.


Truth is that in a studio setting you can make anything sound anyway you want. Glen Tipton has always said that he likes layering a clean track using a telecaster in with heavy distorted parts to add clarity and punch. 

In a live setting the rules change.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

screamingdaisy said:


> Anyway, the problem with P90s and most modern metal is that P90s are too fat sounding with alot of midrange... which is fine for dudes on the heavy side of metal, but for the dudes into the modern/fast stuff they're just not suitable. Humbuckers are a little more narrowly focused and easier to tighten up. They also don't hum like P90s do... which becomes a bit of an issue when trying to keep your palm mutes tight when using really high gain.
> 
> As for Fender singles... I don't think they quite pack the punch in the bridge that's required.
> 
> I would've liked to have found more examples of P90 work in metal, but they're not that common and seem limited to the dudes playing doom and sludge metal. It's semi surprising as P90s have the midrange punch of EMGs and a much more aggressive tone than humbuckers, but don't have the sterile clean tones of an EMG or a ceramic passive. Either way, the rarity is part of the reason I use them... everyone and their dog's rocking humbuckers.


In a live setting it can be tough to control P-90 noise with those levels of gain. Could be a contributing reason.

I believe the dudes from Fu Manchu are using Reverends with P-90's now. But that is a totally different tone from some of the other metal tones being discussed.


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

Archer said:


> ummmm no. Billy Gould of FNM is more of a funk player than anything else but he has more chops than Geezer ever did. He is still in demand now. Tony Iommi said the FNM version is at least as good as the original....I think it is better.


Fair enough... but if that's the case that clip clearly doesn't demonstrate his abilities as I find his playing to be the weak point.



> Back to Tony & Sabbath. I like his live tones using humbuckers more than the older crunchy p-90 tones but both are pretty damn cool. It IS Tony after all.


Keep in mind the difference in recording technologies. You can't hear the details due to the Youtube compression, but that Live in '75 bootleg is probably one of the best recorded examples of Sabbath's tone I can think of. I agree that their modern live tone is better than most of their studio tones, but I suspect that if they had the equipment back in the late 60s/early 70s that they have today their studio tone would be somewhat similar (though probably not have nearly as much gain).


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## screamingdaisy (Oct 14, 2008)

torndownunit said:


> In a live setting it can be tough to control P-90 noise with those levels of gain. Could be a contributing reason.


Oh... most likely. Most metal guitarists I've played with don't seem to want to take their guitar's volume off 10... not really a good mentality for playing with P90s.


> I believe the dudes from Fu Manchu are using Reverends with P-90's now. But that is a totally different tone from some of the other metal tones being discussed.


Could be. As I mentioned I don't really follow who actually uses P90s, though most do seem to be in the Doom/Sludge world.


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## Oakvillain (Mar 7, 2008)

No. Single coils are for blues, jazz and clean sounds like that. I'm only speaking from my experience with Strats.

If you want a thick sounds with lots of depth then you'll need a LP or somehting with humbuckers.

M 2 cents.


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## twoonie2 (Jan 19, 2008)

I have 2 YJM single coils in my Godin SD and they do sound very good with some gain (but nothing over the top).. but I tend to switch over to the D-sonic bucker in the bridge most often.. then it goes from a 6/10 sound to 10/10... tone wise.. 

just my 2 cents..


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Don't know if you have noticed the trend in metal is to back off on the amps gain.
Have tried it and think it cleans up your tone yet it still can be brutal.

Saying that a single coil, sorry the right single coil will work very well.
Still can't get over a G&L I tried with three singles, I thought it was a hum till I asked..it was the stock PU.

Bev


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## keefsdad (Feb 7, 2006)

No.:rockon2:


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

You better take that "no" back before Budda see's your post:smile:

Try it out yourself, keep your gain up so your palm mutes start to thin out, ad a touch more then give it a go.
You will find your notes ring clear and your tone will be much better but the same if you know what I mean..

Report on your findings.

Bev


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## keefsdad (Feb 7, 2006)

Bevo said:


> You better take that "no" back before Budda see's your post:smile:
> 
> Try it out yourself, keep your gain up so your palm mutes start to thin out, ad a touch more then give it a go.
> You will find your notes ring clear and your tone will be much better but the same if you know what I mean..
> ...


No, I love single coils, but I'm not a metal player. If I was, I think I would use Humbuckers. Big, overwound ones!!!:rockon2:


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## Archer (Aug 29, 2006)

screamingdaisy said:


> Fair enough... but if that's the case that clip clearly doesn't demonstrate his abilities as I find his playing to be the weak point.



Billy has more in common with Flea than Geezer. Billy is an absolute heavyweight bass player.


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2009)

*Why not try it for myself I thought?*

I was curious as to whether single coils really were _really_ metal enough. And given that I have all the metal tones I could ever want at my fingertips now I figured: why not try 'em out?

So here is my very-not-a-metal-player take on a metal riff. Panned hard to one side is my single-coil equipped Schecter Cali Custom -- it has some seriously, searing Anderson MonsterTones in it. Panned to the other side is my PRS Standard 24 running a Duncan JB -- again, another hot pickup.

Both guitars are dry. Recorded through the same patch on my Axe-Fx (Recto 1 from the factory bank with the Reverb block turned off). Both have their levels matched. And I tried my best to double the riffing. There is no reverb added on the mix. The drums are EZ-Drummer DFH.

Which is single coil? Which is humbucker?

The clip is here: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/870088/sounds/chug.mp3

I'll tell you what I think of the whole experience later this weekend. I've got a more informed opinion now.

And now I have a reason to use this smilie: :rockon2: HELL YEA!


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

That was pretty close eh!!

Hard to tell but am going to go with the right side.
Proves my point that singles can do metal...the right singles!

Thanks for doing that.. Now we need a Strat and a Les Paul to do the same, don't have either but one of you might that can record.

Bev


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2009)

Bevo said:


> Hard to tell but am going to go with the right side.


The right side is what? The single coil or the bucker? :smile:


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## elindso (Aug 29, 2006)

Jimmy Page doing the original LedZed Dazed and Confused on a Tele. It was full of heavyosity.


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

DOH!! single coil..

Bev


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2009)

iaresee said:


> Which is single coil? Which is humbucker?
> 
> The clip is here: http://files.getdropbox.com/u/870088/sounds/chug.mp3
> 
> I'll tell you what I think of the whole experience later this weekend. I've got a more informed opinion now.


I think it was Archer said a few pages back, "In the studio anything can work". I definitely agree with that statement after trying this out for myself. I thought I got a pretty good chug and grind out of both guitars. I had to work a little harder to chug on the Schecter with the single coil, being careful to get a good deal of side-of-my-hand flesh on the string before my pick hit 'em otherwise there'd be a little burst of harmonics preceding the chug. I also had to be careful with the tail of chugs leading in to rest parts. I really had to choke them off.

But it wasn't a radically different way of playing to make the two guitars sound pretty darn close.

But: would I try this live?

No way. The noise off the single coil was very hard to contain. Even with an incredibly good noise gate on the Axe-Fx the singles still picked up enough noise to keep the gate from kicking in. If I dialed up the threshold I got premature cut off on stuff. It's a delicate ballet to tame a single coil when used with that kind of gain. The humbucker, on the other hand, was dead quiet.

So my personal conclusions: yup, they're metal enough for my needs. But the convenience of a bucker would keep me from using them. I'd probably go for Ducan Blades or the JB-in-a-single-coil.



Bevo said:


> DOH!! single coil..


Left channel: Single coil bridge PU
Right channel: Humbucker bridge PU

And honestly: I had to go back and check my logic session to make sure because I forgot, and can't tell easily discern, which is which. Here are just the guitars.

http://files.getdropbox.com/u/870088/sounds/chug-guitars-only.mp3


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Great experiment and think you hit it on the head, it can be done but its not done because its harder to play consistantly like that.
Had me fooled..

Bev


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## AVWIII (Jun 17, 2009)

More actual tele metal
Now I'm not a wintersun fan, but it's still a cool (and different) metal tone. It's kinda ridiculous that folks seem to want to emulate humbucker sounds with single coils, but I'm sure you can find *your own* "metal" sound with them. I thought that was the point?
Anyhoo, I have learned one thing from this thread: I want another tele. *sigh*... where's my wallet?


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## MattKnight (Nov 27, 2009)

*Why not?*

I play metal on my strat... sounds better on my Jackson but with the right pedal and/or amp there is no reason why you can't get a decent metal tone out of a single coil.


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## copperhead (May 24, 2006)

i b een playing for 20 years my first good guitars was a charvel nothin beats a humbucker in the bridge position ultimate crunch but i own a strat with a gfs lil killer that sounds really good as someone posted someware these pickups sounds like iron maiden THATS A GOOD THING FOR ME cant go wrong with that i love it for that, but when you switch to other positions theres nothin like a real alnico5 single coil in the neck & middle position for those clear bell like tones :smilie_flagge17:sdsre:rockon2:


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Just one word: Earthless

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCEACSH8YBE


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

False dichotomy. There ARE many single coils whose tone is anathema to metal, but then there are many double-coils that are in the same boat, and many single-coil units whose resonance, output, and overall tone is right in the preferred zone. It's all in the winding, really.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

*sad news for all of us*


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## Perkinsfan (Oct 17, 2007)

cheezyridr said:


>


Someone's already done the bagpipes (but I wouldn't call it metal)
Check out Bon Scott on Its a long way to the top (if you wanna rock & roll):smile:


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Perkinsfan said:


> Someone's already done the bagpipes (but I wouldn't call it metal)
> Check out Bon Scott on Its a long way to the top (if you wanna rock & roll):smile:


i would. (call it metal that is) 
what was originally called metal isn't what people today call metal. back in the early 80's when that term began to get alot of use it was applied to ac/dc as well as other bands that aren't considered metal today. 

kksjur according to wipedia, i just learned that song was released in '75!!!
holy cow! i was 10 at the time 

i always say bagpipes are a scottish weapon designed to annoy the enemy into submission. hahahaha


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## Bevo (Nov 24, 2006)

Bagpipes are not for me, just can't take the sound...sorry...


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

don't be sorry about that. the rest of the world is relieved. 
hahaahhaha


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Is this thread ever going to come to an end ?


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## Guest (May 4, 2010)

greco said:


> Is this thread ever going to come to an end ?


 I'm still waiting for a clip of metal played on an accordion....


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

iaresee said:


> I'm still waiting for a clip of metal played on an accordion....


Thanks a heap Ian...now you have opened the door to being bombarded by Accordian Metal ...and similar.

Dave


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

greco said:


> Thanks a heap Ian...now you have opened the door to being bombarded by Accordian Metal ...and similar.
> 
> Dave



[YOUTUBE]u9fB9EjCVZI[/YOUTUBE]

but better still, actual metal and he even attempts the guitar solo

[YOUTUBE]TXEQ_8CFd04[/YOUTUBE]

but if you wanna stick with strings, here is a guy who plays it on a harp:

YouTube - Iron Maiden - The Trooper in the harp

do a search for "harptalica" and listen to them do stuff from master of puppets.


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## Guest (May 5, 2010)

Interesting. That second was a nice try. I was kind of hoping there'd be some Klezmer Metal Band thing out there that'd blow my mind.


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## SirMyghin (Jun 25, 2010)

Single coils are plenty metal enough, sure I prefer humbuckers but I feel the metal sound is a lot more right and left hand muting techniques mixed around.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

This may have been mentioned already (I'm not going to read the entire thread just to find it) but Iron Maiden has guitarists (Dave Murray for one) who use Strats and thus single coils.


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## Guest (Jun 27, 2010)

colchar said:


> This may have been mentioned already (I'm not going to read the entire thread just to find it) but Iron Maiden has guitarists (Dave Murray for one) who use Strats and thus single coils.


Definitely came up. I think someone said he uses Rails or mini-buckers though. Might be wrong. This thread happened a long time ago!


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## Gene Machine (Sep 22, 2007)

colchar said:


> This may have been mentioned already (I'm not going to read the entire thread just to find it) but Iron Maiden has guitarists (Dave Murray for one) who use Strats and thus single coils.


Not true. "Back in the day" their strats had HBs in them. Their recent artist series do have double rail humbuckers in a single coil size. 

Yngwie uses a double stack HB in either the Dimarzio HS-3 or the YJM model.

Ritchie Blackmore still used a single coil Duncan 1/4-pounder until most recently where his strats have two lace sensors.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2010)

The poll that wouldn't die.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I'm just surprised to see that there are so many heavy metal accordian players out there.

I figured maybe ten or fifteen.....


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

The Roland V-Accordian has opened up metal for accordian players.................


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## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

There sure are a bunch of headbanging accordion players here lol


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## Presto1202 (Dec 8, 2010)

I'm pretty sure Kirk Hammett used a single coil strat on One, and not just in the video.


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## Morkolo (Dec 9, 2010)

My personal opinion would be for metal rhythm work you can't beat humbuckers, though multiple single coil guitars can sound heavy as well. For solos though I can swing either way, I guess it depends on the sound and feel you're going for.


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## julienpier (Aug 7, 2009)

As far as I know, a friend of mine plays metal on a Single/Single/Hum 7 string Schecter, he also uses some Xylophone... and it sounds way too f*** good. So I'd go for the accordion option and say it's a matter of feeling! 
Jack White has some damn heavy riff played trough a distorted acoustic gretsch even tho it's not metal, it's still damn heavy.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i bumped this thread because i dont want it to die! hahaha


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## Destropiate (Jan 17, 2007)

Years ago I walked into a long and mquade and asked to try an American standard tele. The sales rep asked me what I played and I said "well allot of stuff but mostly metal right now" he looked stunned. As if I had just said something extremely foolish and then recommended I try some of the uglier pointy metal guitars in the store. ESP, schecter and the like. . I plugged that tele into a dual rec and hammered out some of the riffs I had been working on and he immideately said " huh I don't know you could play that on a tele" I had that guitar for two years and recorded lots of really heavy stuff with it. I didn't get along with the fender scale cause I'm a Gibson guy at heart but the reason for moving along from that axe had nothing to do with the amazing clarity and cut I got out of it while playing fast detuned black metal.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Not a fan of single coils unles they are high output hand wound. I love my Strat for clean and semi-dirty but my LP is my go to for crunch and warm rhythm. I'm mostly a humbucker fan but go figure, *most* of my fave guitar heros are Strat guys.


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