# Yamaha FG-440-12 project



## AlterEgo (Jan 12, 2010)

Hi all!
I bought a Yamaha FG440-12 for nothing. The previous owner didn't play with it for the last 17 years. As you may know 12 string guitars have a reputation for warping after a few years of use and I suspect that the guitar was stored full tension on the string. However I restrung the guitar with Martin light gauge and it is a little tough to play. I must say that I have no problem with open chord, but any higher on the neck is real tough... so... for now I play with it a tone below (DGCFAD), so I can Bar chord. The guitar is pretty loud, and I must say beautiful too. I talked to a luthier about this but the simple answer was that, it wouldn't be cost efficient to do all that work to the Yamaha (hinting a neck reset). well well. Then I wonder if I can do something about it anyway.
After reading few threads, and especially the thread from SBS59 about his Guild, I was wondering if the problem can be fixed without neck reset (or at least making it playable higher on the neck).. I was thinking that maybe the bridge is an issue but the bridge is perfectly glued to the table. maybe some bracket inside... 
I took few pictures to illustrate what I'm trying to describe:
Here is a distorsion in the table at the bottom of the neck.








The next two are to show the table angle behind the bridge (I used a metal ruler to make sure it was clear). In neither, the ruler isn't touching the bridge)
















The next ton is to illustrate the height of the string at the nut (remember it is a gauge for 12 string set)








The first picture illustrates the height at the 17th fret. I couldn't measure the height as I don't have adequate ruler for such measurement.

So I'm open to suggestion, Thanks in advance!


----------



## Alain Moisan (Jan 16, 2010)

Hi AlterEgo,

Indeed you have a big bulge behind the bridge, but if it'regular in its shape (no abrupt slumps) then the structure is good. 

There is one picture missing to be able to tell you if you have a way out of the neck reset; a picture of the bridge with a clear view of how high the saddle out of the bridge.


Alain Moisan
Les Guitares Moisan
www.guitaresmoisan.com


----------



## House Guitars (Jan 4, 2010)

As the neck reset is not an option there are a few things that can be done to lower the action. 

You could plane down the bridge. If you have already lowered the saddle to the top of the bridge this will allow you to go down a little further. There are a number of downsides to this repair. You will loose the break angle of your strings over the saddle. You can get this back by filling the string slots closer to the saddle. Also if you remove too much wood you can compromise the structural integrity of the bridge, which can lead to all sorts of warping and other problems (this is more of an issue on a 12 than a 6).The additional amount you are able to lower the saddle is also not likely to make as much difference as you need for the guitar to play well.

Another thing to look at is the Bridge Doctor. I mentioned this is the Guild thread, the Bridge doctor can help to remove the belly in the guitar top (table as you called it) and keep the belly from developing again in the future. The bridge doctor also compensates for the bridge stiffness that is lost when it is planed down. On several occasions I have planed the bridge on a 12 and installed a Bridge Doctor. I have managed to get a number of guitar that were previously unplayable above the first few frets playing well all the way up the neck. 

Finally check the string height at the nut and make sure your string slots are at the proper depth.

These are not repairs you would want to do on a vintage instrument or you will likely decrease the value. But are worth considering for newer/lower priced instruments.

Josh


----------



## AlterEgo (Jan 12, 2010)

Alain, The bulge is regular and not using a ruler as it wouldn't be as obvious... here is the picture:
















However I think the saddle is at its minimum... What do you think?


----------



## AlterEgo (Jan 12, 2010)

House Guitar, 
I must said that the luthier I talked to, didn't see the guitar (not even picture of it)... Problem is that I made few research on the web to understand the potential value of the guitar in order to understand how much I would be willing to spend on such guitar. I made unsuccessful request to Yamaha Canada to understand what type of wood was used to make this guitar and what glue used . BTW: I thing the wood on the back and sides is "African Zebrawood". The top (thanks for telling me that table isn't the proper word) is spruce and the neck is mahogany, but I far to be an expert. It is indeed a nice looking guitar. One thing I can confirm is that this guitar was bought originally around ~1985, and likely not considered vintage... But would it be consider an "el cheapo" Guitar? Well should I proceed with your suggestion as pet project? or it is worth bringing the guitar to a pro? 
And in any case would neck reset fix the issue?


----------



## Rich Rice (Feb 5, 2008)

From what I can see, you may be able to sand the bottom of the saddle a bit in order to lower the action. This will help, but probably not fix the action. It's a good sign the bulge is uniform, and this bulge happens quite often on 12 strings. A bridge doctor would be another helper, I don't know if it would remedy yours. Everything on a guitar affects everything else.. I play in a trio with a 12 string player who has two Bozo 12's, which are excellent, high end 12 strings. He also has a high end Larrivee 12. He always tunes a full step down, and capoes at the second fret. That helps him keep the tension lower, and has the added benefit of a slightly shorter scale. Just some food for thought... It works for him, and takes the nut out of the equation.


----------



## AlterEgo (Jan 12, 2010)

Ya this way my first thought... I tuned the guitar a whole step down (as per my initail post), but I think the guitar requires a permanent fix in case the exagerated wraping process continue... Am I only paranoid?


----------



## House Guitars (Jan 4, 2010)

Yea I misunderstood your first post. If possible I would find a good luthier in your area that would take a look at it for you. Most luthiers/repairmen are happy to look over a project and give you an estimate of what work needs to be done (and most will do this for free). It is hard for us to tell from the pictures exactly how far out the neck is. A luthier should be able to measure the angle and give you some idea of what kind of improvement you could expect to get out of shaving the bridge, a bridge doctor, or some other type of repair. If you are interested in tackling the project yourself there are some great books, videos and websites out there. Frets.com is a good place to start.

Josh


----------



## Alain Moisan (Jan 16, 2010)

AlterEgo said:


> Ya this way my first thought... I tuned the guitar a whole step down (as per my initail post), but I think the guitar requires a permanent fix in case the exagerated wraping process continue... Am I only paranoid?


The wrapping process will continue, although just as slowly as it did in the first place; over several years. A neck reset would be the correct repair for this, but keep in mind that we can't talk about a 'permanent fix'; it'll will only be good until the next time you need a neck reset, in some 10-20 years from now.

Looking at the saddle, as Rich mentioned, it seems it could be lowered a bit but it wouldn't solve the problem completely. I don't think you can get your way out of a neck reset. Now is it worth it or not, it's really up to you to tell us. Here's how you should be looking at the problem: go into a store and try finding a guitar that sounds just as good as yours and look at the price. Add you sentimental value and then decide if it's worth it or you're just better off with a new guitar. (And keep in mind if you buy the same model guitra of the same year, chances are it will also need a neck reset sooner or later!)

Hope this helps!

Alain Moisan
Les Guitares Moisan
www.guitaresmoisan.com


----------



## AlterEgo (Jan 12, 2010)

OK thanks Josh,

Pretty interesting site… A lot of information, I would say overwhelming, interesting notes on neck reset…
http://frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/NeckReset/00028Reset/00028reset01.html
and innovative ways too
http://frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/NeckReset/BCRIchReset/bcrichreset1.html
Since my Guitar is Asian (Yamaha) hence likely they used Epoxy to glue the neck and I would have to go for the latter procedure… but using a autopsy bone saw… is somehow out of my reach .

Do you by any chance know Luthier in my area (Gatineau/Ottawa) which would at least estimate the potential cost associated to the “surgery” ? … Again I have no way to estimate the intrinsic value of this guitar.

BTW: I went to your site and you are making very nice guitars… 

Again thanks for you advise.


----------



## AlterEgo (Jan 12, 2010)

Alain,
I’ll take your advice and then I’ll see if the guitar is worth its restoration, or to become a 6 string for the next bonfire party  . I have the same question to you, do you know a good Luthier in my area which would at least estimate the work? After reading Frets.com neck reset technique which need an autopsy bone saw … Family priorities and busy schedule would definitely make this endeavor difficult… and furthermore no time to play on my other guitars… argh… and what would I do with such saw after….

I went on your site too… and… wow guys, you just amaze me, I wish I could do such beauties !

Thanks for your time … cheers


----------



## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

> After reading Frets.com neck reset technique which need an autopsy bone saw …


if youre looking at that, may i suggest a maybe simpler option?- slip the heel
you seperate the bindings back to the upper bouts, leaving them attached-
seperate the back from the neck block and sides along the same point.
then realign the neck block for the desired angle, and glue it down.
then you shave off the access wood that will overhang at the back, reglue the binding,
and its an almost invisible fix.
far less invasive than the saw off the neck and convert to bolt on method, and easier for a beginner than a standard reset-
the beauty of this is your binding will cover the area you worked on- theres very little damage done to the finish, and easy to cover what does occur.
something to think about anyway-


----------



## AlterEgo (Jan 12, 2010)

Rich, just got to you web site.... Again Wow... I'm impressed with all of you artist contributing to this forum... I find the #033 pretty interesting look...

Keep on your good work!


----------



## AlterEgo (Jan 12, 2010)

Interesting approach.. however 


fraser said:


> ....slip the heel you seperate the bindings back to the upper bouts, leaving them attached-
> seperate the back from the neck block and sides along the same point.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

well its not innovative- this has been common approach for longer than ive been alive.


----------



## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

looking lengthwise at your guitar, you can see why you need to decrease the neck angle right?
it wasnt built like this- the guitar is warped. if theyre older theyre warped, dont matter the brand.
the top of the guitar has aged, and dragged the back of it with it.
slipping the heel is like an engineering intervention in some cases- the back is stretched, the top is shrunk- fix it
the more valuable a guitar is, the more i want to do a proper reset, but eventually theyll all have these problems.


----------



## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

i think yamaha used white glue- 
you could try a warm pot of water, with a bit of vinegar mixed in- 
warm a pair of putty knives in this- 
use them to pry the body apart-
it wont be fast lol- takes a good few hours-
CAREFUL!


----------



## AlterEgo (Jan 12, 2010)

LOL Ya I'm thinking that it wouldn't be a quick late afternoon activity... Regarding the warm pot of water, are you using steam ? or just water at the join between the heel and the body to soften the glue? Not touching the fret board.


----------



## House Guitars (Jan 4, 2010)

I'm afraid I don't know any of the luthiers in your area. I know a few in Montreal…

Josh


----------



## Alain Moisan (Jan 16, 2010)

House Guitars said:


> I'm afraid I don't know any of the luthiers in your area. I know a few in Montreal…
> 
> Josh


Same here, unfortunately.

Good luck and let us know how it went if you decide to go ahead with the heel slip.



AlterEgo said:


> I went on your site too… and… wow guys, you just amaze me, I wish I could do such beauties !


Thanks!


----------



## AlterEgo (Jan 12, 2010)

Hey All, you bet... I'm still unsure what I'm going to do next but I'll post back.... soon...

Thanks for all comment ... Man I like this forum.


----------



## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

hi- not really steam, more the moisture- i find a hot knife works best, and with the water and vinegar it helps weaken the glue-
youll also need razor blades or a decent hobby x-acto knife set- youll need it to peel the binding, its likely glued in with basically super glue- i wouldnt attemp any heat before youve peeled back the binding tho- it melts/shrinks! 
if youre not in a rush, ill be doing one in the next few weeks, and can make an attempt at photographing- might be of help to you.


----------



## Rich Rice (Feb 5, 2008)

fraser said:


> hi- not really steam, more the moisture- i find a hot knife works best, and with the water and vinegar it helps weaken the glue-
> youll also need razor blades or a decent hobby x-acto knife set- youll need it to peel the binding, its likely glued in with basically super glue- i wouldnt attemp any heat before youve peeled back the binding tho- it melts/shrinks!
> if youre not in a rush, ill be doing one in the next few weeks, and can make an attempt at photographing- might be of help to you.


Very good advice. I like to heat up a painter's palette knife to do this type of job, and I file the leading edge to a honed blade, like a razor knife. Don't overheat the knife, or it can lose its temper and get too soft. Just a nice, gentle amount of heat, such as an alcohol lamp will do the job. You can usually get ta nice palette knife at an art supply store for low $$$, and it is handy for lots of repair work.


----------



## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

hey rich, thanks, it didnt occur to me to mention honing the blade-
its probably important, but i take it for granted maybe-
i take the corners etc off all my blades and files with a bench grinder, and as im a bit of a "knife guy" ive got a good set of stones here- i keep everything as sharp as i can-
the painters pallet knife you mention is perfect for this. the sharper the blades used the less obvious the repair will be. not to mention the time and aggravation saved.


----------



## AlterEgo (Jan 12, 2010)

fraser said:


> hi- not really steam, more the moisture- i find a hot knife works best, and with the water and vinegar it helps weaken the glue-
> youll also need razor blades or a decent hobby x-acto knife set- youll need it to peel the binding, its likely glued in with basically super glue- i wouldnt attemp any heat before youve peeled back the binding tho- it melts/shrinks!
> if youre not in a rush, ill be doing one in the next few weeks, and can make an attempt at photographing- might be of help to you.


I'm not in the rush.., Indeed I would definitely appreciate such thing... and I'm sure it would interest other in the forum.


----------



## AlterEgo (Jan 12, 2010)

Good point, and in any case ... we never have enough tools. For the job, are you suggesting the flexible symmetric knife with a rounded tip, or the asymmetric knife with a pointed tip, like a trowel? Or both?


----------



## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

AlterEgo said:


> Good point, and in any case ... we never have enough tools. For the job, are you suggesting the flexible symmetric knife with a rounded tip, or the asymmetric knife with a pointed tip, like a trowel? Or both?


well, ill start by repeating what you said- we never have enough tools. so id get both types-
i use several types, even those flat bladed ones, like this-










as you work at it, depending on the situation, how tough the glue joint is, how brittle or weak the wood is, whatever,you may want to try several different blades-
a small, slim flexible pallette knife is ideal, but sometimes you need something beefier, like the one i pictured- especially when it comes to seperating the neck block.


----------



## AlterEgo (Jan 12, 2010)

fraser said:


> .... if youre not in a rush, ill be doing one in the next few weeks, and can make an attempt at photographing- might be of help to you.


 Hey Fraser, do you still have plan on doing a neck reset ?  

Thanks


----------



## AlterEgo (Jan 12, 2010)

OK I'm about to place an order to Stew-Mac. Since this is a 12 string I'm thinking getting a bridge doctor to slow the bellying process and I'm also thinking that I'll give a try with Fraser suggestion and slip the heel. So what type of glue would you suggest me? I was thinking about liquid Hide glue for sure no epoxy. Should I also get the Glue Syringes? 

Thanks


----------



## Rich Rice (Feb 5, 2008)

I'm not sure about the liquid hide glue, I've never used it successfully. I would use hot hide glue if possible.


----------



## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

ive never tried the liquid hide glue- and ive only read thats its not so good.
you can use carpenters glue, its the easiest to work with as far as drying time- youre not rushed to get things lined up and clamped- but if you ever want to take it apart again its much more difficult to do.
although im pretty sure thats what was used in its initial construction.
hot hide glue is the best- as you can seperate it again easily-
in canada you can buy it here- good people.
http://cgi.ebay.com/FINEST-VIOLIN-M...emQQptZGuitar_Accessories?hash=item2ea8b81e86
but youve got a limited time to work with it- youve got to be ready with it all lined up and clamps ready to go- it sets up as it cools.


----------



## Alain Moisan (Jan 16, 2010)

I agree with Fraser, standard carpenters glue will work just fine. Using hide glue is tricky and it takes a bit of practice and equipment to use it without hassle.


----------



## Rich Rice (Feb 5, 2008)

I use hot hide glue almost every day, there was a pretty good learning curve in the beginning. If you choose to try it, heat your parts after fitting them. An electric hair dryer will do the trick, and will give you a little extra working time. Don't get it too close to the finish, or leave it pointed at the finish for a long time or the finish can boil (don't ask me how I know..) But warming the surfaces prior to application and making sure your work area is warm (don't do it in the garage in the winter, I work at the kitchen counter with a space heater right next to the working area and close the windows) will give you more working time. Another trick I have read about (but never tried) is to add some urea to the hot hide glue to increase working time. 
Carpenter's wood glue will hold it strong, but there's alot of work to get it apart later if you need to. 

If you make a stick to run the length of the fretboard down to your bridge, then put a screw into it where you want your bridge height to be, you can run the screw in or out until you have determined your desired neck angle. This takes the guesswork out of the equation. When I set necks with hot hide glue, they tend to want to walk out of the socket until the glue sets- so watch that the neck stays put up to that point. It usually only takes about a minute or two to gel and stay in place.


----------



## fraser (Feb 24, 2007)

some good ideas there rich- never thought of heating the parts- and im going to start peeing in my glue now too-
Alterego- you can make a simple hide glue setup-
heres mine-










quick dirty and cheap, its just an old pot, a soupcan with holes drilled in it- a chopstick to suspend the can off the metal of the pot, a dollar store cooking thermometer- and a hot plate- i didnt own a stove, or do any cooking at home for some years, so i had to buy a hot plate for glue lol- one side of the soupcan has an extra hole in it you can see- i can put the chopstick through it and the can angles towards me for better access if i want lol. really just a useful mistake.
i just threw it on my desk to take the pic- but youll get the idea.
i gotta say though- carpenters glue is much easier and hassle free- but not easily reversible- so youve got to decide which way to go- id like to say- use only hide glue, its the only way! but i often just use carpenters glue myself- just to avoid mistakes and headaches-


----------



## AlterEgo (Jan 12, 2010)

Excellent, thank you all, I sent my order to Stew-Mac and went to Canadian tire to buy flat and really shape Olfa HBB blades... I also bought feeler gauge for spark plug to measure the neck relief (I was using a pick before) I'm a bit nervous to start peeling the binding  if I understand correctly I shouldn't use heat in this step of the procedure. It appears that the neck was reset in the past but I can't confirm, I will post picture later. Because of that I'm still unsure which glue I'm going to use. Also I was thinking of modify the guitar a bit to slow the wrapping process in future. Of course it will affect the tone, but I was thinking doing something underneath the finger board and the neck block where the section of the guitar top isn't playing much a role in the guitar top vibration (Well from what I think no science behind my saying here, just due to the finger board). I'll post a drawing later (picture worth thousand words),


----------



## AlterEgo (Jan 12, 2010)

*Quick update:* I installed a bridge system (or bridge doctor) to the guitar and I let it sit in a 50% humidity environment for a month now. I just re-tuned it to standard tuning, and wow the bridge belling is now normal... The guitar is playable now. The string height is still fairly high, but next step I have no choice but a neck reset (or slipping) I guess. This is few pictures I'd like to share. BTW: I use my wide angle camera instead of mirror to verify inside. I get the flash as a bonus  

http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab316/alterego_photo/Bridge%20system%20FG440-12/P1060905.jpg
http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab316/alterego_photo/Bridge%20system%20FG440-12/P1060906.jpg
http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab316/alterego_photo/Bridge%20system%20FG440-12/P1060908.jpg
http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab316/alterego_photo/Bridge%20system%20FG440-12/P1060909.jpg
http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab316/alterego_photo/Bridge%20system%20FG440-12/P1060910.jpg
http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab316/alterego_photo/Bridge%20system%20FG440-12/P1060914.jpg
http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab316/alterego_photo/Bridge%20system%20FG440-12/P1060916.jpg
http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab316/alterego_photo/Bridge%20system%20FG440-12/P1060918.jpg
http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab316/alterego_photo/Bridge%20system%20FG440-12/P1060919.jpg
http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab316/alterego_photo/Bridge%20system%20FG440-12/P1060922.jpg
http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab316/alterego_photo/Bridge%20system%20FG440-12/P1060924.jpg
http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab316/alterego_photo/Bridge%20system%20FG440-12/P1060930.jpg

This is the warp at the sound hole without the tuning pressure... the warping is much more when tuned standard (unfortunately)
http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab316/alterego_photo/Bridge%20system%20FG440-12/P1060926.jpg

Nothing wrong regarding the braces after tuning (pheww) 
http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab316/alterego_photo/Bridge%20system%20FG440-12/P1060968.jpg
http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab316/alterego_photo/Bridge%20system%20FG440-12/P1060969.jpg
http://i875.photobucket.com/albums/ab316/alterego_photo/Bridge%20system%20FG440-12/P1060932.jpg

Can you tell me from the picture what is the wood used for the neck block?

Cheers!


----------



## Alain Moisan (Jan 16, 2010)

AlterEgo said:


> Can you tell me from the picture what is the wood used for the neck block?


Looks like plain old mahogany to me.


----------

