# Mid gain dirt



## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Well, I'm on my third try at a mid gain pedal and I'm still not happy. 

I can't seem to find a pedal that's bright enough. 
The last two tries were a Rockett Flex Drive and lastly a Bearfoot DRD.
Too bassy or mid hump that can't be cleaned up.
I do like the touch sensitivity and gain on these two units, just too dark.

So now, I'm abandoning the single tone adjustment route and I'm looking for 
something with a three band EQ, for more tweakability.

From what I've researched, the three pedals that I'm leaning towards are:

Montreax Knebworth, Wampler Plextortion, or Solid Gold Superduper Drive.

Anyone have any experience with any of these pedals? Any other suggestions?

Thanks.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

You don't need any fancy schmancy pedal to do that. Tell me what you currently own - any $30 overdrive will do - and I'll tell you what to change to do what you want. You should be able to find the parts locally, even in Sudbury.


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## flashPUNK (Feb 16, 2006)

If you're going to sell your Bearfoot DRD, let me know.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I have a Tim in transit.
Do you mean modding the pedal? That could get messy.  lol
I was looking for something in between the Tim and the high gain pedal that I have, a Metal Shaman.
I listed two of the last pedals I've tried. I'm not sure what you mean by what I own, guitars, amps?
I have several guitars with humbuckers and others with singles, running into a Dr Z Maz jr.
What parts would you be talking about?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I meant pedals. Doesn't have to be all that messy. Hell, if you are worried about "messy", you can simply bring my mod instructions to a qualified repair person, and THEY can make the changes for what will probably amount to much less than the nonsense of shipping overpriced boutique pedals back and forth (and no more than shipping a pedal to and from someone who does mods). There's gotta be someone in your area that repairs stuff and is able to do a clean solder joint, right?


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

So what mods are we talking about here then and where can I find them?
If I can mod the Rockett pedal with a treble boost rather than a cut on every switch, 
that would be pretty cool. The Flex Drive has three different switches - a fat boost,
one for clipping and a treble cut. If I could reverse the treble cut it would work out well.
I don't consider $2-300 pedals fancy, a bit overpriced maybe.
I think Zenkudo and Cornish are getting into the "fancy" territory.
I do want to try some DIY, recieved a soldering iron for X-mas, lol,
just haven't thought of a project, and capacitors and resistors are all Greek to me.
I'd be pretty sure that the local shop could take it on if I didn't.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

I have a Visual Sound Open Road for sale and think it is perfect for what you are after.Don't mean to spam, but you should look into the Open Road.TG


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I would second that, and stand by anything my friend RG Keen designed (and the Open Road is one of his).

At the same time, there is the matter of clarifying what our buddy Sulphur means by "mid-gain dirt". Certainly any of the Tube Screamer variants (which the Open Road is, from what I gather) are intended to provide something which can add some grit, without being too overly distorted. The cut->clip->trim strategy of the TS architecture strives for that, but also produces the midrange hump that many complain about. Married to the right guitar/pickups and speakers, that hump is no big whoop, but married to the wrong partners, it can sound irritatingly shrill.

Which brings us to what Sulphur is aiming for. If it is a full-bodied tone that provides some breakup when pushed hard (like an old tube amp trying to pretend it's 20W when really it's 5w), that's one thing. If smooth TS-style overdrive is the tonal goal, that's another. So, what's it gonna be?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

For low to mid gain overdrive I'm using a Fulltone OCD at the moment. Seems to work well.


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## PaulS (Feb 27, 2006)

I find the dan electro Cool Cat transparent OD to fill my needs in the low to moderate gain areas, not that pricey either. By the way I've had numerous boutique style OD's and modded TS9's etc but I'm happy with the cool cats. I use two, one set for low and the other full gain, if a boost is needed put them both on.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

In general, the amount of distortion created is a function of the clipping threshold, relative to the signal level. As it happens, the signal level from a guitar varies over time, such that it starts off very strong when you pick, and pulls back to a lower-level sustaining state shortly afterwards. The initial pick attack also generates a lot of harmonic content (part of what produces the extra volume level).

If the signal level remains higher than the clipping threshold for a while, then we tend to hear it and label it as "distortion" or "fuzz". If the signal level falls above the clipping point for only a brief period during pick attack, then falls below it afterwards, we tend to label that as "overdrive", when the added harmonic distortion lingers for only a moment, then cleans up.

While the signal level can be easily adjusted to fall consistently above or below the clipping threshold, clipping thresholds themselves tend to be fixed. This is most especially true when the pedal uses diodes for clipping, because diodes have fixed clipping points. Germanium diodes tend to clip at around 230-300 millivolts, silicon diodes at around 490-600 millivolts and LEDs start clipping around 1500 millivolts. The clipping points are additive, such that you can produce a clipping point of around 700-800mv by putting a germanium and silicon diodes in series. 

Many of the pedals intended to produce greater dynamic range, and a so-called "mid-gain" sound (and search for my earlier comments on this forum about the difference between "gain", "volume", and "distortion") simply use more diodes in the clipping part of the circuit so that the threshold is bumped upwards. And this is precisely what pedals like the Tim/Timmy, Danelectro Transparent OD, several Barber pedals, and several Fulltone pedals (Fulldrive, OCD, et al) do: use cascaded clipping elements in series to produce more dynamic range and a more "touch sensitive" (i.e., relying on pick attack for clipping) feel. With a higher clipping threshold, not only is the overall output level higher (because the ceiling is lifted), but the part of each note where clipping occurs is relegated to primarily the pick attack, and very little distortion occurs after that. That sounds cleaner to our ears.

There IS, I should point out, every bit as much "gain" as before. All that is different is what the gain _produces_, when put to work.

This is why I say that many pedals can be modded to do exactly what Sulphur appears to want. Take a good old-fashioned MXR Distortion+, which produces a fairly tattered sound, and changing 3 parts will get you a nice full-bodied "mid-gain" sound.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Thanks for the info.

I'm wondering if the Tim will do what I want now, I'll see.
What I'm hung up on is not enough adjustment on the pedals that I've tried.
I've heard good things about the OD Milk, but with the delivery of the Tim, 
I wonder if I'll be OK in that area. I'd use the Tim for the low gain. 

What I really want is either a more adjustable EQ, or if it just has a tone knob,
to be able to brighten it up enough for my liking.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

"Brightening it up" may or may not be in your best interests. Your circumstance may be different, but a lot of folks will use a pedal like a Tim or other mild distortion to push their amp into overdrive. Part of the resulting tone comes from the pedal, but a lot still comes from how the pedal makes the amp break up. In such applications, one doesn't really want the pedal itself to be that bright-sounding, since it will produce harmonics of harmonics of harmonics when it hits the amp, and that generally sounds terrible and harsh to most ears. What you're aiming for is likely a "throatier" sound, which will come from feeding the amp a signal that has more in the way of lower-order harmonics, but not the top end.

At the same time, it is an entirely valid choice to run the amp super clean, and rely on the pedal itself for the tone. In which case, there are ways to goose the treble a little more in the Tim/Timmy.

Finally, I will note that - assuming the circuit of the Timmy (which I do have a schematic for) is essentially like that of the Tim, without a few bells and whistles - the Tim/Timmy operates in precisely the manner I described in the previous post, with a higher clipping threshold produced by use of more diodes. Happily, Paul Cochrane makes it possible to select (internally, by dipswitches) just how many clipping diodes you want to use. I will also note that it uses a configuration that results in more treble being trimmed off as the gain is increased. That gain/treble relationship can be modified by changing one capacitor.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I had the Flex Drive open and noticed in the center of the guts, behind the tone pot,
is a JRC 4580D opamp. Now, can I change this IC to bring a difference in the tone?

I haven't recieved the Tim yet, this pertains to the mid gain pedals.

I can see the reason for not having a pedal too bright, it's just that I'd like a notch or two
more treble on tap. At least if it was too bright, I could dial it back.

Is it possible to change out this component to get me in that direction that I'm looking for?

I appreciate your input,info and patience with this, thanks.


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

I (like many here) have gone through a bunch of OD pedals looking for the one that I like best. My favs include the Fulltone OCD and Fulldrive 2, the Z.Vex Box O Rock, the Timmy and the TS9. 

If you want something flat, I'd go for the Timmy or the FD2 (in flat mids mode). Again, like mhammer mentioned, your definition of mid-gain may be different than mine and what amp you're running it into (and how it's set up), will make a big difference. The Timmy on its own into a clean amp will only give you so much OD, and it doesn't sound all that great beyond the 12 or 1 o'clock.

In all honesty, for mid-gain, I haven't found anything better than a TS9. I've owned several, including Keeley and Analogman modded ones, vintage ones and stock reissues and they all sound fantastic for what they're designed to do. If the mid-hump isn't an issue for you, or you can EQ around it, it's just a great OD pedal.

You said you have a Maz Jr. Are you running it completely clean? With that amp, it really shouldn't take much to get it to grind. Have you tried turning the drive down on your pedals and turning the volume up to use them as boosters to overdrive the preamp in your Maz?


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Yes, I'm running the Maz clean. Dialed it in to where I want it clean and use the pedals for all the dirt.

I'll use the Tim for lower gain and possibly a boost for the mid gain. I have a high gain pedal that I'm happy with
(it has a three band EQ) and I wanted something to bridge the gap between the two pedals. It would most
likely be my go to pedal as that would be the range that I'd mostly be playing in.

I do have a parametric EQ on the board but if I jack up the higher frequency, I then run into the problem of that
through the whole system. As you probably know, it's a fairly bright amp to start. If I have the EQ tweaked for highs, then
I have to deal with it while it's clean and with every other pedal.

It's just the mid gain that I have the problem with. The O/D that I currently run has plenty of high end as does the 
high gain pedal. To me, it just seems that if I could either brighten up the mid gain pedal I have (not a ton either),
or get a brighter pedal, I'd be set. 

I could be chasing my tail here, as mhammer stated, you don't want anything too bright. 
For me to get two pedals like this, I'm starting to assume that they are mostly set up this way,
for that reason.

I'd still like to know about the opamp though, if changing it out could brighten it up a bit.

Thanks guys.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

sulphur said:


> I had the Flex Drive open and noticed in the center of the guts, behind the tone pot,
> is a JRC 4580D opamp. Now, can I change this IC to bring a difference in the tone?
> 
> I haven't recieved the Tim yet, this pertains to the mid gain pedals.
> ...


Changing the op-amp chip produces audible changes in some circumstances, but not others. There ARE some circumstances where people will say they prefer the tone of a JRC4558, but others will say they prefer different chips in the very same circumstance, so don't rely on "legend" for miracle cures.

The case where people opt for a 4558 is the clipping stage in a Tube Screamer. That topography places clipping diodes in the feeback path of an op-amp (the 4558 contains two of them), and the clipping diodes appear to interact with the input properties of the chip in a certain way. Change out the diodes and you lose all the advantages of the chip. Note that there will be NO audible advantage to swapping chips for any other portion of the circuit, other than maybe a slight reduction in hiss (but that would require using a chip other than the 4558, so pick your poison - hiss or less-preferred clipping). So, even if we accept the "mojo" of the 4558 at face value, if your Flex Drive has an EQ section, and uses an op-amp for that, that has absolutely no bearing on the tonal quality of the interaction between chip and clipping diodes in the one stage where the clipping is produced.

Long story short: leave well enough alone, and understand mojo first before chasing after it. Sometimes the "holy grail" is just a styrofoam cup.

I can't see the Timmy schematic from work (blocked site) but I can see it from home. I can get back to you about a suggested component-value change, once I can see the current values and do the math.

The main thing to keep in mind is that a great many things can be deduced with the simple formula F = 1 / [2 * pi * R * C], where R is the resistance in megohms and C is the capacitance in microfarads. For example, in a Tube Screamer, the gain is set by a 500k pot i series with a 51k resistor. There is a 51pf (.000051uf) capacitor in that same feedback loop. When gain is set to min (51k or .051meg), the resistor and cap produce a rolloff starting around 61khz, which is obviously inaudible. When gain is set to max (pot + resistor = 551k), that rolloff is moved downward to start at around 5.6khz. So it is possible to predict what the tonal change produced will be and what standard component value comes closest to what you want.

Since you note the availability of a parametric EQ, perhaps you could do some advance scouting with it, and identify what band/range you'd like more of. That'd be really helpful, and let me zero in on exactly what needs to be changed.


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## david henman (Feb 3, 2006)

Milkman said:


> For low to mid gain overdrive I'm using a Fulltone OCD at the moment. Seems to work well.


...yep. that is a killer pedal.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

david henman said:


> ...yep. that is a killer pedal.


The OCD is good, but I find the Open Road better. More "open" (LOL) and less fizzy.

TG


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

So the opamp has to do with the clipping only? The component is directly on the back of the tone pot,
which is why I figured that it might have something to do with the tone, oh well.

That Open road looks interesting... No mid hump, right in the write up, hmmm.
The two O/Ds is a good idea. As mentioned before, jack one right up and
use the other for lower gain.

You mentioned Timmy. Unless it's the same circuitry as the Tim, which is what I'm getting in,
it's kind of moot. I have yet to get possession of this pedal, so it's not even in the picture yet.
When I do get the Tim, I'll know for sure then if I'd like more dirt than what I can get from it for the mid gain.

I have one more nightshift to go, then I'll have more time to check with the EQ. 
What about the pot itself? Is it like a guitar, where you can brighten it up with a higher value?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

sulphur said:


> So the opamp has to do with the clipping only?


Well, op-amps are used in multiple places, but the preference for a JRC4558D in a Tube Screamer circuit is a function of the manner in which it interacts with the clipping diodes _*in that particular circuit*_. It's actually not that high of a quality chip, but yields an apparently particular quality to the resulting sound that many like (or at least attribute their liking to).

It's often surprising what role op-amp choice can play in a distortion circuit. For example, the MXR Distortion+ uses the venerable (and ultra-crappy) LM741, one of the earliest op-amps out there, far surpassed by just about anything produced since 1972. But the circuit was essentially designed around that chip's weaknesses. IN fact, if you take the clipping diodes right out of the pedal, it still _*never gets clean. *_It essentially clips twice: once in the chip itself, and once via the diodes.

In a similar vein, the Proco Rat uses an LM308 op-amp. Again, not an especially well-spec'd chip. The developer of the Rat recounts in Art Thompson's "Stompbox" book how he mistakenly used the wrong component value when breadboarding the initial circuit, and produced this oddly attractive and appealing undertone at higher gain levels that was the result of essentially exploiting the limitations of the chip. And they stuck with it.



> That Open road looks interesting... No mid hump, right in the write up, hmmm.
> The two O/Ds is a good idea. As mentioned before, jack one right up and use the other for lower gain.


Well that's just it. Pretty easy and inexpensive to make a pedal that's pretty decent at doin one thing. Somewhat harder and more expensive to produce a pedal that does a lot of things well. The result is that it is often a cheaper and easier solution to just have two pedals, each dedicated to doing something different.



> You mentioned Timmy. Unless it's the same circuitry as the Tim, which is what I'm getting in,
> it's kind of moot. I have yet to get possession of this pedal, so it's not even in the picture yet.
> When I do get the Tim, I'll know for sure then if I'd like more dirt than what I can get from it for the mid gain.


As far as I'm aware of, the Timmy is essentially the same thing as the Tim, but with several features omitted. Think of it like the difference between the EHX Q-Tron+ and Mini Q-Tron; same pedal with fewer options.



> I have one more nightshift to go, then I'll have more time to check with the EQ.
> What about the pot itself? _Is it like a guitar, where you can brighten it up with a higher value?_


No, but you _can_ shift where the cut and boost is by changing a capacitor value, which is probably easier and cheaper to do than changing a pot.


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

This is the pedal you seek...

[video=youtube;ka4GKposIjA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka4GKposIjA[/video]


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I use a Timmy for my low-gain boost and an OCD for mid-gain. The Timmy would work well in either situation, but they are tweeky.

I had a friend who could not dial his in. He never read the manual. It is important to understand a couple things abou the Timmy. The tone controls cut (attenuate) only and start at flat being 7:00. So as you 'increase' the bass or treble controls you are actually increasing the amount of cut, not the amount of signal in that band.

Also, the bass cut works before the OD stage, cleaning up the woofiness and flabbiness. The treble cut works after the OD stage, cleaning up the post-distortion fizziness and brittleness. 

If tweeked with understanding, I can't imagine a Timmy not covering the low to mid gain ground really well. It is very flat if you leave the bass, treble and gain controls at 7:00. But you'll never get treble boost out of it - except by increasing hf harmonics using the gain control.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Note that, since much of the guitar signal "lives in the basement", turning down the bass prior to clipping tends to produce less clipping, because it reduces the overall amplitude of the signal. Conversely, any sort of bass boost prior to clipping can easily shift you from a less to a more distorted sound.

I know people like to talk about this in terms of "gain", but note that the gain is held constant in these situations. All that changes is the overall signal amplitude, relative to the clipping threshold. Move everything closer to the threshold and you get more clipping.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

I'll put my 2 cents in on this and recommend a Lovepedal Amp 11. I have a bunch of pedals recommended in this thread but the Amp 11 is the one that did if for me. 

[video=youtube_share;fmoFgQ46qz0]http://youtu.be/fmoFgQ46qz0[/video]


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

ne1roc said:


> I'll put my 2 cents in on this and recommend a Lovepedal Amp 11. I have a bunch of pedals recommended in this thread but the Amp 11 is the one that did if for me.
> 
> [video=youtube_share;fmoFgQ46qz0]http://youtu.be/fmoFgQ46qz0[/video]


Cool, I didn't know about that pedal at all! Looks like a good one!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Is it just me, or do the various Lovepedal "products" come and go so fast its hard to think of them/him as having a "product line"? That's not a criticism of the quality. But you can look at the MXR, or EHX or Boss pedals, and you recognize stuff. With Lovepedal, it feels like if I turn away for 6 months I won't recognize anything when I look again.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Is it just me, or do the various Lovepedal "products" come and go so fast its hard to think of them/him as having a "product line"? That's not a criticism of the quality. But you can look at the MXR, or EHX or Boss pedals, and you recognize stuff. With Lovepedal, it feels like if I turn away for 6 months I won't recognize anything when I look again.


It's easy to put out new pedals every other week when you "borrow" another builder's design (Amp 11 = Danelectro TOD V1 = Timmy)


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## Jeff B. (Feb 20, 2010)

mhammer said:


> Is it just me, or do the various Lovepedal "products" come and go so fast its hard to think of them/him as having a "product line"? That's not a criticism of the quality. But you can look at the MXR, or EHX or Boss pedals, and you recognize stuff. With Lovepedal, it feels like if I turn away for 6 months I won't recognize anything when I look again.


I can't say I have much interest in anything made by them. Between the builders questionable ethics and the blind rampant fanboyism that the brand seems to breed, it all just gets under my skin.
Paul C. is a class act and handled himself with more patience, maturity and restraint than any person is entitled too when the whole Amp11 thing broke especially after having it happen before with Danelectro. 

This guy was trying to track them all and they drew up this map. It hasn't been updated since 2007 though so I'd imagine it's movie poster size by now. 
Larger map picture here.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I was unaware of any link between the Tim and Amp 11.

At the same time, if one has followed the evolution of the Tube-Screamer-with-tweaks thing, the Tim/Timmy, while a solid product and nobody has anything bad to say about Paul Cochrane, is simply a continuation of that whole thing. It is hard to grasp the sheer number of pedals out there that are simple tweaks to the TS. It started with the Boss SD-1 and has kept up since then, with easily 10 different pedals coming out each year that provide juuuuuussssttt the slightest variation on that theme.


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

traynor_garnet said:


> It's easy to put out new pedals every other week when you "borrow" another builder's design (Amp 11 = Danelectro TOD V1 = Timmy)


I have all three pedals and they are all different. Amp 11 is the clear winner IMO. All three are good though but the Amp 11 has some kind of mojo happening?


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## Jeff B. (Feb 20, 2010)

Indeed. There really are only so many ways to build an opamp based overdrive pedal. The building blocks are pretty much universal in their application and it's the tweaks and variations as you mention that are used to differentiate a bit. 
Tube Screamer's and their brethren are really a bit unavoidable though on some levels. If a builder doesn't offer one or a sound-a-like, people ask them "if they are going to offer one" or "what do you have that can sound like that?" 
If people would just embrace EQ pedals, like a GE-7 or similar or a parametric EQ. The bottom would probably drop out of the boutique overdrive and booster market and we can all go back to buying Boss and EHX pedals which actually have more exclusive and original circuits than the boutique market.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I like that LP Amp 11 on 18 volts, cool.
I wasn't aware of a Lovepedal contraversy either.
I've heard a bit about the Danelectro/Timmy deal and read about the Freekish Blues/Joyo thing on TGP.

Well, after some thought, I went off the board for this one - 
www.cmatmods.com/super-signa-drive.html

It has the exact same set as the Knebworth, another contraversy?
Anyway, just thought that I'd get that in before this thread takes a total u-turn. 

As always, mhammer, loads of useful info.

For clarification, I'm in the Christmas Eve period of my Tim. It's in transit. That will be another thread.


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## Jeff B. (Feb 20, 2010)

Your link is broken sulphur.
Those 2 do look quite eerily similar.......however.
I've seen the gutshots of a number of Cmatmods pedals and every one so far has been a Cmatmods pcb made for him and not a rehash of another manufacturers board.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

CMAT pedals - SUPER SIGNA DRIVE- Boutique tone in guitar pedals

That one should work, sorry.

Good to know about the CMATMODS.
They have a few interesting pedals and decent pricing too.

This is a beefier version of the Signa Drive with a three band EQ. 
Should be fun.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

When people start going into all these comparisons of pedals that are essentially the same thing but have ever-so-slight (though still useful) differences in EQ-ing, I am reminded of the scene in the film "Fast Times at Ridgemont HIgh" where Judge Reinhold and a bunch of the other guys, who have all worked in and been fired from countless fast food chains, are sitting around talking about what goes into the "secret sauce" for the burgers at chain X and Y. "What's in yours?" "Ketchup and mayonnaise." "We use Russian salad dressing." "We use Thousand Island."

Do any of these hundreds of small operations that all use the same powder-coated Hammond boxes, all buy their knobs from Steve Daniels in Brooklyn, all use the same damn blue 3PDT stompswitches, all use the same chrome bezel and blue LED, ever sit down and compare what they have in their boxes to determine if they are actually different? I highly doubt it. That's why I like DIY; because I know I can buy whatever is cheapest, and make it do what I want.

Case in point. I see the "Waterbox" chorus at the CMATMODS site. Whaddya know, the exact same feature set I put into the Small Clone clone I built 3 or 4 years ago, and a modded Liquid Sky I auctioned off for the United Way at work last year, and some of the things I added to a CE-2 clone I made.

I'm not dissing these small scale makers simply because they have lots of overlap. Heck, that would be like saying there is no need for more than one chip wagon downtown, selling fries, poutine, and chicken burgers. Other chip wagons sell them too, but this one puts "salt and vinegar halfway" in the fries, and that one gets their gravy mix from a different place, etc.. Same basic product, with small differences that some customers like and others don't. Nothing wrong with that. Just don't inflate your ad copy to make it sound like it IS new and different. And if it is the same basic thing as other commercial products with another control feature or two, SAY IT IS.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I completely agree with your statement. 
If it's a clone, say so. Call a spade a spade.
Advertise it as so and add their spin on it, simple.

I do see some outfits say that it's a TS with more features, but don't claim
"original" design when it's not. 
That's the fine line.

Are there any patents on circuitry?


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## jimihendrix (Jun 27, 2009)

All this tech talk about pedal innards boggles the mind...What about variables outside the box that alter the final tone Sulphur is chasing...???...

- his own unique playing touch

- his type/gauge of strings

- his brand/type patch cords

- his choice of amp

- his tonewoods/picks/pickups...ETC ETC ETC...

The physical limitations of the pedal itself should just provide the "starting point" or "general ballpark" tone base...the rest of your tonal nirvana (that which you hear in your head) may never be attained...


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

What I was initially getting at was that I was happy with my high gain pedal and current O/D,
Tim is coming in anytime now. I can get enough treble out of both units without having to
dime anything out. In fact, the treble is rolled back to around 11 o'clock on the high gain.
The last two distortion pedals I tried were just a bit mid heavy or bassy without the ability
to clean them up, imo. Both had the gain levels that i liked, just not bright enough.

The rest of the rig is great, cleans are where I want them on the amp.
So that leads me a pedal that has more than a "tone" knob.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Does anyone think it a mear coincidence that the number of un-unique but hyped pedals grows at exactly the same speed as the interweb thingy! Man, as a builder, if you can just 'score' a Klon-type product, you are laughing all the way to the bank. Not to say the Klon isn't a really good pedal, but $800 - $1000 good? Nah. 

The biggest part of my tone is my hands, pure and simple. And the practice (or lack thereof) I put in. The pedals are just the spices sprinkled over the top of what has to be a good basic main course. But they are also the cheapest (well, except for a few) and easiest way to change our sound. I would love to be able to try all the interesting new ones that come out, but that's impossible. So I either chase relentless the next great thing, looking for something that may not even be achievable. Or I practice more. Pedals are fun, but not the be-all and end-all, IMO.




mhammer said:


> Long story short: leave well enough alone, and understand mojo first before chasing after it. Sometimes the "holy grail" is just a styrofoam cup.


Mr. Hammer, I really appreciate your technical understand and explanations regarding this stuff, but this line was a true gem, sir. If I didn't hurt myself laughting, I tip my hat to you and will unapologetically steal it, in honor of this thread about circuit-design thieves! Cheers!!!


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## hollowbody (Jan 15, 2008)

High/Deaf said:


> Does anyone think it a mear coincidence that the number of un-unique but hyped pedals grows at exactly the same speed as the interweb thingy! Man, as a builder, if you can just 'score' a Klon-type product, you are laughing all the way to the bank. Not to say the Klon isn't a really good pedal, but $800 - $1000 good? Nah.


Klon's aren't $800-1000. That's what the used market says they are because people will pay that much. Whether it's worth that much is a question only the buyer can answer. A new Klon (when they were being made) was about $300 and change. Oh, and they're coming back into production


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> Mr. Hammer, I really appreciate your technical understand and explanations regarding this stuff, but this line was a true gem, sir. If I didn't hurt myself laughting, I tip my hat to you and will unapologetically steal it, in honor of this thread about circuit-design thieves! Cheers!!!


Thanks. yeah, that line gave me a private tickle, too. Just call me the poet-laureate of the pedal world!
As for"tone being in the fingers", that is most especially true in terms of riding the threshold of breakup, and the role pick attack plays in that, as well as modulating the brightness of the tone. Other things, like echo, phasers, etc., the tone lies more in the box thanin the fingers.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Yes, I agree. Pretty hard to produce modulation effects without a pedal. I've heard singers try to do echoes without an echo box. Basically very unconvincing ;-)

A funny thing happened to me on the way to learning to play guitar. While I was really concentrating on the left hand and getting the frethand to work correctly (spending untold hours doing it), I was unaware I was training my right hand on how to attack and strike a string. It kind of just happened but I now appreciate what my right hand can do. Its probably better at its job than my left hand is and it wasn't anything I knowingly did. Just lots of training.




hollowbody said:


> Klon's aren't $800-1000. *That's what the used market says they are because people will pay that much.* Whether it's worth that much is a question only the buyer can answer. A new Klon (when they were being made) was about $300 and change. Oh, and they're coming back into production


Which was my point. Before the internet, was there any way to create the kind of hype about a product that leads to not just continental, but world-wide demand for a product, one of which most people have never even heard live, let alone played with. People just want one because they've heard about it and want to believe it will be the be-all and end-all to their tone.


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## seanmj (May 9, 2009)

I've found the Wampler Paisley Drive to be a really versatile pedal.... as a matter of fact, I have 3 other Wampler Pedals which I love for various reasons. Though most of the Wamplers are a tad pricey.

The Paisley has several eq adjustable parameters on deck... which all get used by me. Though I do keep a byoc ts1 (stock settings) on my board as well when I want a real ts sound with m/hump.

Having become more of a pedal guy over the past few years, I've learned how to use the ts style pedals more effectively. I have 4 primary distortion boxes on hand which simulate different types of amps (various marshalls and fenders) and then the ts style pedals + fuzz feed those pedals for more sustain/boost/drive.

Another pedal (if you're good with a soldering iron and following instructions) is the od-2 by byoc. It has a good majority of the mods that people make to ts style pedals included in the kit... and some extra switches and knobs included to make them all accessible.

Sean Meredith-Jones
www.seanmeredithjones.com


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Thanks for the input Sean.

I just recieved my Tim today, yay!
I can see me using this unit for a lot of lower gain classic rock stuff, Stones etc.
I have the gain set around 3 o'clock and bass and treble around 1 o'clock.
It's nice that it adds grit to the signal without colouring it too much, if at all.

I do like the Wampler Plextortion, just for the smaller footprint if anything.
Wampler seems to know his stuff with the O/Ds and distortions.
Brian is coming out with a new unit that covers the Soldano sound.

I have a Cmatmods SuperSigna Drive on its way, that should do the trick.


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## seanmj (May 9, 2009)

sulphur said:


> Thanks for the input Sean.
> 
> 
> I do like the Wampler Plextortion, just for the smaller footprint if anything.
> ...


The Plextortion is one of his pedals I haven't tried... but the guy's work is impeccable... he just doesn't make a bad pedal. I've got the Pinnacle for the brown sound, the plexidrive for Marshall Jtm 45 sounds... and the Black 65... which gets a Marshall JCM 900 remarkably close to Fender territory. The Black 65 and the Paisley is a dynamite combo... and I've been using them together a whole lot recently.

I'm sure the Soldano will be great... I'm also keen on trying his Leviathan Fuzz!

Sean Meredith-Jones
www.seanmeredithjones.com


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

As with so many other products these days, I think the pedal market (and the amp and microphone markets as well) has become over saturated. There are too many choices which makes it impossible to decide what to buy and once we do make a purchase we second guess ourselves because with all the choices there must be another pedal that is 2% better. 

Up until recently I had the same five pedals on my board for 15 years. I recorded records and played live and no one ever told me my tone sucked.

I used the tools at hand and I suppose any "tonal imperfections" became part of "my sound".

Thanks to the internet I started reading about all these fantastic new boutique pedals I hadn't heard of before. Surely these new pedals would make me sound better than my old cheap ones. 

So I have gone about buying and selling a bunch of pedals and got a new amp and overall I don't think my tone has improved. If anything I am overwhelmed by gadgets and options and can't focus on my playing because I am constantly tweaking knobs and watching YouTube videos for other pedals.

I miss those old days and my mass produced pedals.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

I do agree that the pedal market is swamped.
It's pretty hard to make a decision based soley on demos.

There's one place in town that carries a few boutique names, but doesn't stock much.

One of the reasons I was looking for another dirt pedal is to be able to set 'em and play, not tweak constantly.


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## georgemg (Jul 17, 2011)

sulphur said:


> It's pretty hard to make a decision based soley on demos.


Definitely tough to make a decision based on a demo. I had listened to several demos for a few pedals, bought the pedals and then found they sounded nothing like the demos with my set-up. Too many variables I guess - playing style, amp, guitar, other pedals in your chain...you really have to try them out before you'll know for sure. Luckily I bought a few of my "test-runs" off Craigslist and Kijiji, and didn't lose too much when I turned around and sold them. 

Like others, I use an OCD for the mid-gain territory. Fairly transparent and cleans up well with volume changes.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Welcome to the forum georgemg.

I'm hoping the Cmatmods ends my search.

With so many guys liking the OCD here and in other forums, 
it would be worth looking into. Fulltone has pretty fair prices too.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

hardasmum said:


> As with so many other products these days, I think the pedal market (and the amp and microphone markets as well) has become over saturated. There are too many choices which makes it impossible to decide what to buy and once we do make a purchase we second guess ourselves because with all the choices there must be another pedal that is 2% better.
> 
> Up until recently I had the same five pedals on my board for 15 years. I recorded records and played live and no one ever told me my tone sucked.
> 
> ...


Pedals have become like the lipstick display in many stores. I mean, really, you've got light pink, bright pink, bright red, wine red, and maroon; everything else is just negligible differences.


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## seanmj (May 9, 2009)

mhammer said:


> Pedals have become like the lipstick display in many stores. I mean, really, you've got light pink, bright pink, bright red, wine red, and maroon; everything else is just negligible differences.


Not sure I agree with that. I've got 7 gain boxes on my board... and they all do different things.... and the differences are NOT subtle. Some are distortion pedals... and some are ods. When I want the Brown Sound... I hit the pinnacle. When I want a fender bf and I'm playing through a Marshall... I use the black 65. When I want EJ or JH tones... I hit the fuzz. For various vintage Marshall sounds... I either use a Plexi Drive or Catalinbread DLS. When I need to tip the amp over the edge... I hit any one of those pedals with either a stock byoc ts or a Paisley drive. They are all distincltly different.

Sean Meredith-Jones
www.seanmeredithjones.com


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I've worked my way through easily 50 or 60 in my lifetime, if not more (I must have at least 40 at the moment), and after a while it all turns into one big blur. I'm not saying there are only 4 basic sounds - don't get me wrong - but there are considerably fewer distinct sounds out there than there are pedals. I'll wager that you can find easily 30-50 different productions pedals for any single given sound. Make that 100 if we're talking about a basic Tube Screamer, or 80 if its a Fuzz Face.

The trouble is that everybody has access to the same building materials, the circuits are simple, and the pedal business is way easier to move into than the guitar-making or amp-building business. If you're going to be big time, obviously you need more space, but it is piece of cake for someone to have a small apartment and have part of it as their "production facility". That doesn't mean the build quality is necessarily amateur, just that a LOT of people can take $500 and leap into the pedal-making business - something that would be relatively impossible to do with almost any other kind of music-related equipment. And since every kid wants a distortion, and distortions are pretty easy to design. And since there are too many to keep track of (no store will carry all the ones you've heard of so that you can try them out), we see all manner of redundancy and duplication, with "designs" consisting of very simple component value differences producing just-noticeable differences. It really IS like the lipstick display.


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## hardasmum (Apr 23, 2008)

mhammer said:


> Pedals have become like the lipstick display in many stores. I mean, really, you've got light pink, bright pink, bright red, wine red, and maroon; everything else is just negligible differences.


That's a perfect analogy.


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