# Tone Capacitor Material Differences



## TWRC (Apr 22, 2011)

I don't want to start a heated debate as I know that this is a pretty subjective topic - but I have a question.

I've never swapped out any of my tone caps before because I've always just ran whatever the guitar came with. With my Strats, I always mod them with a TBX Tone Control along with the stock 0.022uf film cap. I understand that going with something of a higher capacitance will tame the highs etc, but how does going to a paper in oil and or wax in oil or any other material for that matter in the same cap value change your tone? Again, not trying to cause a debate here, but I would like to know what the general consensus is on how different materials could change tone and what perceived tonal properties are present within in each material.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

TWRC said:


> Again, not trying to cause a debate here, but I would like to know what the general consensus is on how different materials could change tone and what perceived tonal properties are present within in each material.


The debate is "Can you hear any change(s) in tone when you use the various *types* of capacitors* (*AKA caps) (i.e., not various *electronic* *values* of caps)

There will be various *financial values *(i.e., the cost to you) of these caps. 
Paper in oil will cost more than mylar, etc, etc.

Good luck on getting a general consensus on this topic !! 

Some (possibly many) will very likely say ..."A cap is a cap is a cap"

There are several YouTube videos of various cap types/materials of the same electronic value being used in succession with the same guitar, amp and guitarist.

Cheers

Dave


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## TWRC (Apr 22, 2011)

Assuming that all values are the same, I'm curious as to what people think the tone changes are in each materials. From experience, is there a cap that's smoother than the other etc. - opinions of that nature.

Prior to reading up on this topic, I've always been in the "a cap is a cap is a cap" camp, but there have been some convincing arguments otherwise, so I'm just wondering what the GC crowd thinks of this.

I thought this guy did some awesome research on the topic. His website also has some clips where you can compare audio snippets.

[video=youtube;92G-jw4TqS4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92G-jw4TqS4[/video]

http://www.planetz.com/is-tone-love-blind/


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Here is a sample test...just to get this thread going.

Cheers

Dave

ooops...we were posting at the same time....LOL

[video=youtube;IsrSeiCwynk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsrSeiCwynk[/video]


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

By your first post, it was impossible to know how much you had studied/researched this topic. Please accept my apology if my first post seemed condescending or too basic...Sorry! 

Cheers

Dave


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## TWRC (Apr 22, 2011)

Thank you, but no apologies necessary. I didn't really know how to approach the subject here as I've seen and read the all out wars that go on in TGP and TDPRI that I wanted to just ask about people's hands on experience about the topic without offending anyone. 

I have "heard" differences between say a 0.022uf PIO cap vs a 0.022uf film cap, but sometimes I wonder if it's because I'm expecting a difference and make it up in my head. 

Or maybe the manufacturing tolerances between a NOS PIO cap vs. a modern day film or ceramic cap are quite a bit different. In other words, I would suspect that the film and ceramic caps would measure closer to their advertised values than the PIO values.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Caps do vary in their properties. The question is always whether the properties in which they differ are pertinent to the specific application. So, if one is passing a multi-source wide-bandwidth signal - such as a mixed-down orchestra - through a capacitor, then the properties of the cap may very well have some impact on things like the phase alignment of fundamentals and harmonic content, such that it becomes harder for your brain to assign those harmonics to their probable source.

When the application is simply bleeding off higher frequencies to ground of a single source that hasn't much high frequency content to begin with, and will ultimately be reproduced through an amplifier and possibly other circuits that impose distortion (i.e., additional harmonic content not in the original), the alignment of stuff above 10khz with stuff below 1khz so that you can unconsciously assign the harmonics from the violins TO the violins and the harmonics from the cymbals TO the cymbals, etc., etc.,....well, it becomes less important.

That said, different cap types have different "operating characteristics" like leakage, tolerance, and apparently even inductance. Can a simple treble-bleed cap of the exact same capacitance value as another, that differs only in materials, present _consistently_ audible differences? (i.e., something you would still hear in a blind test if I woke you up in the middle of the night, if you had a head cold, if you had just eaten, if you had just listened to a loud recording, etc.) Maybe. I suppose anything's possible. But I sure as hell haven't heard them, and a great many of the guitars we think of as having "classic" tone have used the cheapest ceramic disc types for decades. Is it possible that something like, say, voltage rating (i.e., a disc type rated for 100v vs 50v) makes a difference? Maybe. It is not inconceivable that at very loud volumes, the layers of material inside the cap are shaken in a manner that differs depending on higher-voltage caps being a different size.

But keep in mind that these are differences that may require some very specific conditions to be audible, and may simply never apply in any given player's particular case or lifetime.

Certainly the first step in any comparison, though, is to measure the damn thing, and verify that any two or three different types are the same _actual_ value, and not just the same _nominal _value printed on the cap.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Might just be me, but I don't hear a difference with differing materials. Actually, I can't hear a difference between the 0.022 and 0.033 either.


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## TWRC (Apr 22, 2011)

Mark, as always you have such an eloquent way to explain things. Thank you. 

I went in and edited my last post before reading this and in conjunction to what you say in your last sentence. I often have to question peoples' perception on old and "vintage" sounding caps and wonder if that's because of the degradation of materials within the cap etc. I could be completely wrong here, but I think we often listen with our eyes than with our ears. I guess I'm still trying to find some hard evidence to justify this modification.


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## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

I use Orange Drops 'cause I think they _look _cool.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Might just be me, but I don't hear a difference with differing materials. Actually, I can't hear a difference between the 0.022 and 0.033 either.


Well that's a testament to your love of 40W+ amps and 12" speakers!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

TWRC said:


> Mark, as always you have such an eloquent way to explain things. Thank you.
> 
> I went in and edited my last post before reading this and in conjunction to what you say in your last sentence. I often have to question peoples' perception on old and "vintage" sounding caps and wonder if that's because of the degradation of materials within the cap etc. I could be completely wrong here, but I think we often listen with our eyes than with our ears. I guess I'm still trying to find some hard evidence to justify this modification.


First, thanks. Much appreciated.

Second, there have been documented instances in recent years of "bumblebee" caps (black with stripes around them indicating value/voltage-rating) actually being a different kind, sitting inside a plastic shell that _looks_ like a bumblebee type.

Third, if one is playing top-of-the-line single coil pickups, with extended top end, and using them through a _clean_ amp with decent speakers, at a sound-pressure level where your ears get to function properly and not change things or create illusions, cap type _might_ just matter. But apart from Mark Knopfler, Albert Lee, and a few other folks, I don't know too many who play that way. The question then becomes whether people think they hear differences in irrelevant contexts that only exist in narrowly circumscribed contexts, because they think they _ought_ to hear it. That is, what is valid in circumstance A but not B, is perceived differently in B because of A.

We're such fools that way.


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## Intrepid (Oct 9, 2008)

I have never been privileged to hear the difference between caps. I've listened intensely to hear the difference but nada nuttin. Must be old age.


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## TWRC (Apr 22, 2011)

Maybe we can call this phenomena "Perceived Mojo"? I saw a thread like that in a Les Paul forum where a guy took apart the "Bumblebee" cap only to find something entirely different underneath. 

I think I hear with my eyes in situations like this and try to spot differences. Even in tone tests like the one I posted earlier, it's hard for me to tell the difference between the caps just by listening to the audio with headphones on.

Ultimately, I think Swervin might be onto something here; because let's face it, a nice big ol' paper in oil cap looks better underneath a Strat pickguard than say a film or ceramic cap. Ergo, perceived mojo.


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## Intrepid (Oct 9, 2008)

And I'm not dissing anyone who actually can hear the difference. All the power (and tone) to them.


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## TWRC (Apr 22, 2011)

Neither am I and neither was that the intention of this thread.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I have two Russian paper-in-oil caps for sale...any takers?

On a serious and 'toneful note' (possibly due to the PIO caps?...Sorry, I couldn't resist) this has been a very interesting thread so far. And because it is Guitars Canada, a very courteous thread.

Cheers

Dave


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Intrepid said:


> And I'm not dissing anyone who actually can hear the difference. All the power (and tone) to them.


I agree. It is what I meant in my first comment. Just because I can't hear the difference, I do not begrudge those who can, if they do.


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## TWRC (Apr 22, 2011)

It's nice to know that on GC, I can post a topic like this and not worry about it getting out of control. I'm sure if I did the same post on TGP, it would be 14 pages long by now and also very preachy on both ends of the spectrum.



greco said:


> I have two Russian paper-in-oil caps for sale...any takers?
> 
> On a serious and 'toneful note' (possibly due to the PIO caps?...Sorry, I couldn't resist) this has been a very interesting thread so far. And because it is Guitars Canada, a very courteous thread.
> 
> ...


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

TWRC said:


> Mark, as always you have such an eloquent way to explain things. Thank you.


Mark...Thanks from me also. 

I have been admiring Mark's writing (on any topic) for years now.

Cheers

Dave


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## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

For some, their tonequest takes them on a search for the Holy Grail. For others, they think "what's the fuss all about - it's just a cup, after all..."

There's room for all here at GC. :acigar:


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## elliottmoose (Aug 20, 2012)

I have to agree with what's been said already: perceived mojo all the way. I'll be the first to admit that I am swayed by the appearance of components in how they present, layout, vintage 'correctness,' etc. I think a lot of us take pride in seeing what's 'under the hood' of guitars, amps and pedals. Seeing a sweet hand-wired, NOS component turret board is like looking under the hood of a classic muscle car. 

I digress.

Is it possible to hear a difference? Sure, I bet there is a person out there that can tell you the difference (just like my wife can tell the difference between twelve shades of beige, some people are simply more sensitive to sonic differences). Is it likely to have a dramatic effect on my sound? Maybe not. BUT, I find a little joy in the mojo and craftmanship of things. If I was to take a bicycle and paint it with a retro feel, whitewall tires and chrome accessories, it might attract certain people. Take the same bike and paint it flat black with studded tires or in My Little Pony theme, you get a very different crowd. Will it ride the same? Yep. Will you use it the same? Probably not. 

All that to say yes, I think it's mostly mojo but there's bound to be a capacitor-connoseiur that can rhyme off a dozen differences between the types.

Side note: is there a difference in _reliability (in consistency/durability/etc.)_ of the different types of caps?


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