# Understanding Minor Scales



## Bastille day (Mar 2, 2014)

Learning the major scales and related chords made perfect sense but there are three minor scales, not sure how or where I would apply them. I tried the A minor natural scale a few times, some of the notes didn't sound like they belonged together.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

There is only one minor scale as far as I'm concerned, the Dorian, which starts on the second degree of the major scale (d, e, f, g, a, b, c in the case of C major). The other two are modes. To play the Dorian scale in context you can try the ii-v-i (Dm-G7-C) and try improvising D Dorian.


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## Bastille day (Mar 2, 2014)

amagras said:


> There is only one minor scale as far as I'm concerned, the Dorian, which starts on the second degree of the major scale (d, e, f, g, a, b, c in the case of C major). The other two are modes. To play the Dorian scale in context you can try the ii-v-i (Dm-G7-C) and try improvising D Dorian.


Thanks, so which one of these is similar to the Dorian scale?


the natural or relative minor

the harmonic minor

the melodic minor


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

I don't use the harmonic minor or the natural minor except when I'm plying modal. The melodic is another beast and I use many of its modes, only a few of them over minor chords.
None of them are the same scale.


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## Bastille day (Mar 2, 2014)

Thanks Amagras, once again, I am in way over my head.

I will start with the melodic.


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

D Dorian notes are the same as A minor natural. Try to find a Stairway to Heaven jam track. The end part where he solos. Or maybe learn Lay it on the Line by Triumph to get you started.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

The Natural Minor Scale is the same as the Aeolian Mode. The Dorian mode might sound minor-ish, but it is not truly a minor scale. The Natural Minor and Harmonic Minor scales are the ones that crop up most commonly in my life. The Harmonic Minor uses more interesting chords, IMHO.

The Natural Minor is the same intervals as the major scale, but starting and finishing on the 6th degree of the major scale. You could use the same chords as well, but your "home" chord would also be the one built on the sixth of the major scale and your "five" chord would be rooted on the 3rd of the major scale. Hope that makes sense...

The Harmonic minor has a raised 7th degree compared to the Natural minor. Which changes your "five " chord to a major (or dominant 7th) chord.

Any clearer...?

Best thing to do is sit down at a piano keyboard and work it all out - seems to make more sense on a keyboard.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

fretzel said:


> D Dorian notes are the same as A minor natural.


Not exactly the best way to understand minor scales although in theory you're right.


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

amagras said:


> Not exactly the best way to understand minor scales although in theory you're right.


Understandable. That's why I mentioned the songs in hopes that they may show the way. 
Ok, in hopes that this doesn't cause any confusion here are a couple more examples. A good example for Dorian being used in a minor key song would be Black Magic Woman. I believe the song is in B if memory serves me correctly. Main rhythm alternates between B minor and E major. When you are playing the B chord avoid playing the 6th(g#). But when you play the IV chord(Emaj) not only can you play the g#, you can emphasize it. 
Another natural minor song would be since I've been loving you by zep. With all these songs try and listen to where and when they play certain notes. Are they staying on them or just using them as passing tones.


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## Bastille day (Mar 2, 2014)

We have a piano teacher here in town, best if I go up for a few lessons.

Using songs as Fretzel mentioned is a good idea as it is much easier when I see and hear.

I just found a tabbed version of Lay it on the Line, starts in Am.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

A theory teacher can help better than a piano teacher.

To continue with the suggestion made by fretzel and the Dorian scale also check "Oye como va"


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## fretzel (Aug 8, 2014)

One more for melodic minor. Check out Bouree Row by Jethro Tull. It's actually a Bach tune. Textbook example as it uses melodic minor ascending, natural minor descending.


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

The one I use the most is the harmonic or the melodic i forget but it goes like this: tone-semitone-tone-tone-semitone-tone and a half-semitone

To make things more confusing one of them has a raised 7th acending and lowered when decending. again I forget the names but remember the theory bs


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## Bastille day (Mar 2, 2014)

amagras said:


> A theory teacher can help better than a piano teacher.
> 
> To continue with the suggestion made by fretzel and the Dorian scale also check "Oye como va"


I checked out that Santana song and basically the Dorian scale is just a group of certain notes, yes?

My next question is, did Carlos Santana even think about the Dorian scale when he put this song together?


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Bastille day said:


> I checked out that Santana song and basically the Dorian scale is just a group of certain notes, yes?


Every scale is a group of certain notes but if I understand correctly your question the answer is no. 



Bastille day said:


> My next question is, did Carlos Santana even think about the Dorian scale when he put this song together?


Most certainly yes, Carlos Santana probably did his homework in the 60s before recording Abraxas, etc


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Moosehead said:


> The one I use the most is the harmonic or the melodic i forget but it goes like this: tone-semitone-tone-tone-semitone-tone and a half-semitone


Harmonic



Moosehead said:


> To make things more confusing one of them has a raised 7th acending and lowered when decending. again I forget the names but remember the theory bs


Melodic. I remember the names by remembering "melody is easy to sing" (no tone-and-a-half jump)


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

FWIW I got turned onto a payment optional online theory course at Coursera.org. Things I've long had an inkling about are becomming clear. Really good video lessons and handouts. All easily applied. Their example for Aeolian was Good King Wencleslas.

://www.coursera.org/learn/edinburgh-music-theory


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## Jim9guitars (Feb 15, 2016)

Sometimes you have to use all of this knowledge as a guide, not a law. I have an extensive background in music theory but still run into examples where a note, or sometimes a phrase shouldn't work over the chords it's being played over but sounds beautiful. I gave up over analyzing this a long time ago, basically, "if it sounds right, it is right" are words to live by. Blues and jazz players often refer to a note that doesn't fit in the scale but sounds great as the "blue note".


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## Bastille day (Mar 2, 2014)

amagras said:


> Every scale is a group of certain notes but if I understand correctly your question the answer is no.
> Most certainly yes, Carlos Santana probably did his homework in the 60s before recording Abraxas, etc


Thanks for that Amagras, I have to ask these questions to better understand these scales as they are very intimidating.

"Oye Como Va" will certainly sound better knowing a little bit of theory behind it.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

I will try to find a good explanation of the 3 voice harmony (major-minor, no 7th) so you can understand the basics and don't get messed up before jumping to more advanced stuff like the melodic minor.

Upd--Here it is, this is the perfect explanation, then you can apply the same to any scale but try to fully understand this first:
Harmony Tutorial - Seven Harmonies of Music


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## Bastille day (Mar 2, 2014)

amagras said:


> I will try to find a good explanation of the 3 voice harmony (major-minor, no 7th) so you can understand the basics and don't get messed up before jumping to more advanced stuff like the melodic minor.
> 
> Upd--Here it is, this is the perfect explanation, then you can apply the same to any scale but try to fully understand this first:
> Harmony Tutorial - Seven Harmonies of Music


Saved in my favorites.

I found this interesting:

*Music theory myths*
*
Myth: you can learn how music works by studying individual elements of music out of context.* 
Truth: studying intervals, triads, seventh chords, eleventh chords etc. by themselves does not teach you how music works. Most available theory and ear training tools perpetuate this myth. _*Chords have harmonic meaning mainly in relationship to each other.*_ Harmony is created by a _*sequence of chords*_. And you can study that harmony without knowing what makes up the chords themselves. 

*Myth: you have to study chord configurations (triads, sevenths etc.) to learn how music works.* 
Truth: there are a small number (seven) of basic harmonies. They are not different kinds of chord configurations; they are all simple chords, each based on a different note of the scale. Understanding how music works simply means learning how to hear them and getting familiar with how they are used. "Mechanical music theory" is not needed to do this. It is mainly an experiential process: listen to guided examples, then listen for the harmonies in everyday music. 

*Myth: the secrets of how music works are complex and difficult to learn.* 
Truth: The most important keys to understanding music are the seven harmonies, and they are not complex, and can be learned by watching and listening to multimedia examples. And there is no need for the usual authoritarian right/wrong style of teaching theory.


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

music theory myths.....
certainly one way to look at theory, but the inner conflict of not understanding the process may still haunt the player. I certainly wanted to understand how music moves and evolves and I enjoy theory very much. Has helped my playing and technique immensely. Also allows one to compose and improvise with so many options at hand. And it is one of the few universal languages on this planet.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Not sure if you play music with Major 7ths and such, but be aware of the 6th degree in Dorian when the chord changes. It's known as an "avoid" note, which is a bit of a misnomer because you do not want to actually avoid it. But what you DO want to do is avoid staying on it. I prefer the other name for it which is a "passing tone". That gets into heavier detail than maybe what you require, but it's a good idea to at least know that it exists (as I have no clue what level you're at theory wise). The 6th note in Dorian can be very dissonant with a lot of tension when played over certain chords (D dorian over a C Major 7 for example.) But you won't notice the 6th note much in the example Amagras gave for the ii - V7- I if you aren't using a Major7 on the I.

Just remember that certain tones of the scales in general won't sit nicely over certain chords and you'll be good to go. It's all about chord - scale relationships and tension and release in the end.

Here's a bit of a rundown if you want to know a bit more:

Mathias Lang's Guitar Blog: Avoid Notes


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## Distortion (Sep 16, 2015)

Bastille day said:


> Thanks Amagras, once again, I am in way over my head.
> 
> I will start with the melodic.


And so is he a lot of wrong information.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Distortion said:


> And so is he a lot of wrong information.


Looking forward to hear more.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

amagras said:


> Looking forward to hear more.


I'll pitch in re: your first post Amagras. Dorian scale is actually a mode. Natural, Melodic, and harmonic are the 3 key Minor scales.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Dorian2 said:


> I'll pitch in re: your first post Amagras. Dorian scale is actually a mode. Natural, Melodic, and harmonic are the 3 key Minor scales.


Thanks @Dorian2. I don't see or use it that way tho, this is the way I learn it and so far has worked for me, I use the 3 of them (actually only the Dorian and Melodic Minor, I don't use the Harmonic Minor unless it's strictly obligatory). Also in my first post I said "as far as I'm concerned there's only one Minor Scale: Dorian". The Dorian comes from the major scale harmony, the other 2 come from different harmonies as their name indicates. I am willing to share my approach with anyone in this forum but I don't need to force nobody to pay attention to me.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

amagras said:


> Thanks @Dorian2. I don't see or use it that way tho, this is the way I learn it and so far has worked for me, I use the 3 of them (actually only the Dorian and Melodic Minor, I don't use the Harmonic Minor unless it's strictly obligatory). Also in my first post I said "as far as I'm concerned there's only one Minor Scale: Dorian". The Dorian comes from the major scale harmony, the other 2 come from different harmonies as their name indicates. I am willing to share my approach with anyone in this forum but I don't need to force nobody to pay attention to me.


Your right about it being a Minor scale in a non technical/theoretical sense, of course. And I did note (to myself) that you did say "as far as I'm concerned" as well. Basically the I IV V (Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian) modes are Major and the ii, iii, vi (Dorian, Phrygian. Aeolian) are minor. We can also consider them forms of a minor scale....there really is no right or wrong except to keep the "music theory talk" on the same page for other musicians in the conversation. We also wouldn't want to confuse others more than we really have to I suppose. It's always been a sticking point with some.

Thanks for clarifying...and sorry for speaking for you Distortion, I'm pretty certain you can clarify your own opinion as well.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

That is strictly right @Dorian2 but to me it's too much information and I had to struggle to keep it out of my head while I learn to apply the theory to the practice because from my point of view (and perhaps because of the music I aim and struggle to play) it is unnecessary. The way I see it there are only 3 chords that come from the major scale: ii-v-i the rest are substitutes of those 3 main chords (iii=i, iv=II, vi=i and vii=v), again, this is he way I see it. 
The connection between the major harmony and the melodic minor is mainly the v chord in its 4 voice expression: v7 which you can the alter in many ways, specially to use the 7h degree of the melodic minor also called the altered scale or the 4th degree also called Lydian dominant. There are also other conjunctions like the melodic minor itself used over the ii chord but that coincide with the Lydian dominant on the v chord... And many more, that's why I tend to simplify, there's solo much to keep in mind when improvising and my brain isn't that big. Also music's main reason in our lives is to have fun


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

amagras said:


> That is strictly right @Dorian2 but to me it's too much information and I had to struggle to keep it out of my head while I learn to apply the theory to the practice because from my point of view (and perhaps because of the music I aim and struggle to play) it is unnecessary. The way I see it there are only 3 chords that come from the major scale: ii-v-i the rest are substitutes of those 3 main chords (iii=i, iv=II, vi=i and vii=v), again, this is he way I see it.
> The connection between the major harmony and the melodic minor is mainly the v chord in its 4 voice expression: v7 which you can the alter in many ways, specially to use the 7h degree of the melodic minor also called the altered scale or the 4th degree also called Lydian dominant. There are also other conjunctions like the melodic minor itself used over the ii chord but that coincide with the Lydian dominant on the v chord... And many more, that's why I tend to simplify, there's solo much to keep in mind when improvising and my brain isn't that big. Also music's main reason in our lives is to have fun


And there's the beauty of music. Everyone thinks it, plays it, and approaches it differently. I'm going to have a little thinking session on how you approach it because I like to have as many ways to think about it as possible.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Dorian2 said:


> And there's the beauty of music. Everyone thinks it, plays it, and approaches it differently. I'm going to have a little thinking session on how you approach it because I like to have as many ways to think about it as possible.


Although I understand things too slow to my liking and end up having to create my own paths and shortcuts to understand information I cannot take all the credit  

The best spent 50 dollars ever:
Jazz Theory Book: Levine: 9781883217044: Books - Amazon.ca


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

I learned how to play in some odd scales the other night. I was playing a song in D major, and went to solo over it using the D major pentatonic. For some reason my hands decided they'd rather head for a different spot on the neck instead. I think I ended up in E flat major instead. Instead of sliding back up to where I belonged, I just turned my brain off and played by ear from wherever my hands were. It worked.


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

I used to do that but with my imagination (or the lack of) I found myself taking the same path over and over again, I still consider that's the way tho so I decided to learn some theory to train my ear and musical memory to new harmonies and alternatives then try to close my eyes and see where I would end up playing...like someone else said "You've got to learn your instrument. Then, you practice, practice, practice. And then, when you finally get up there on the bandstand, forget all that and just wail."


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

amagras said:


> ...like someone else said "You've got to learn your instrument. Then, you practice, practice, practice. And then, forget all that and just wail."


That is exactly what I am doing! ...only backwards


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

My take is that music is 95% ear and 5% theory. so make the most of the theory you do take in, then proceed with confidence. 
I have published a couple of guitar instruction books and I use them extensively with my students. I am always amazed at what they can come up with when improvising with just some basic theory tools in their arsenal. Of course that usually leads to a hunger for more ideas, so I add a little more theory, and on it goes..


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

nkjanssen said:


> This is huge, and is why "A minor is the same thing as C major" is completely wrong. Yes, they have the same notes, but the context means they sound completely different. It's also why the question "What chord is C-E-G?" can't be answered with certainty without more information. It's _probably_ a C major, but it could just as well be the 3, 5 and 7 of an Am7. Context is everything when analyzing music.


Saying "completely wrong" in that post is an oxymoron, the rest makes sense...in part. Let me explain: while you are in C major, A minor is in the context of C major thus it can be used as a variation of the root chord (C major) or an inversion of C major with the 6th added. If you are playing in F major, or course A minor doesn't commonly suggest C major (although can try improvising in C and probably be surprised) in that case the ear is going to be more attracted to the 3rd degree of F major, but not only. Knowing this it's also a good start for modulation. Simply enough  
Again, I won't stop using my approach just because people can't see how it might work but I can stop sharing about it any moment.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

nkjanssen said:


> An "oxymoron" is a combination of contradictory words presented together for effect. Saying that C major is not the same thing as A minor is absolutely not an oxymoron. Nor is it incorrect.


Using the words completely, absolutely and wrong in a discussion about music theory is contradictory. I fail to see why you choose those words.




nkjanssen said:


> I didn't suggest that the notes of an A minor chord can't be played in the key of C major or over a C major chord. In fact I think I said the opposite. But if the functional harmony has clearly established that a chord is a C maj and you play an A-C-E over it, it's not going to sound like an A minor chord. It's going to sound like a C6 chord. And in that case, it would be silly to call it Am if it sounds nothing like a minor chord in the context.


I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough here, I never meant to say they sound exactly the same, I said they are freely interchangeable and I see them as the same chord when they are used in C major. For example, let say the bass player is playing the root notes or the triads, the guitarist can feel free to substitute IV with II and viceversa, I with VI and III and finally V with VII. That way you can introduce new flavors to your interpretation while still being in theoretically correct.
You can still go further and substitute any chord (as long as you mind the avoid notes and treat them with respect) with any chord inside the major key, even those from the melodic minor scale, for example when playing a Dm7-Galt-Cmaj7 you could substitute Galt with literally any tonal chord from Ab melodic minor because melodic minor doesn't have avoid notes.


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

nkjanssen said:


> Whether you agree with the statement or not, it's not an oxymoron. Don't use words you don't understand.
> 
> 
> 
> We'll have to agree to disagree then. I see it as completely wrong to call something a minor chord if it's clearly functioning as a major chord and vice versa. There's really no point to theory at all if you're going to do that. People obviously do it, though.


Thank you for your suggestions, good luck


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## sakuarius102 (Nov 23, 2016)

Good Job !


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

Slash knows minor scales! Use as directed, apply liberally.


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## epi 'sildo (Jan 7, 2017)

i guess we all think of this in different ways. i learned the pentatonic minor and pentatonic major first which really are just shifting the pattern by 3 frets. Em = G maj. same notes, different root. one scale to rule them all bwahahah!
modes? i just add scale degrees to those two scale patterns. i spent some time way back trying to memorize modes and said "aw screw it". now speaking of modes, especially dorian, the irish sure like it. lilting banshee, key of G major is what it looks like on paper but its A dorian. i like the sound of those tunes...


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