# Article on Quebec guitar builders



## JHarasym (Mar 27, 2007)

http://www.montrealgazette.com/business/Quebec+guitar+gods+plucky+bunch/9027732/story.html


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

JHarasym, thanks for posting this. It's a great article. 

I totally agree with Mr. Godin on his point about using machines to make guitars.



> Against expectations, Godin says that you can’t make a good instrument by hand. You do need experienced craftsmen, but also the exacting tolerances of technology to produce a great instrument, he insists.


However, I do not agree with this blanket statement about Chinese guitars.



> Godin claims that instruments made in China are junk.]


Some are junk. Many are very good instruments and some are very, very good.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> JHarasym, thanks for posting this. It's a great article.
> 
> I totally agree with Mr. Godin on his point about using machines to make guitars.


Can't make a good guitar by hand? That's a total piece of BS!

I have little respect for that man... he spins lies to serve his interests.



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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

dradlin said:


> Can't make a good guitar by hand? That's a total piece of BS!
> 
> I have little respect for that man... he spins lies to serve his interests.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


He may have meant in large quantities. I should have qualified my response for that is what I meant when I said I agreed. You can make a superb guitar by hand but while you are making one, a properly set up manufacturing facility can make thousands that are every bit as good. The reason for this is once you have the specs and engineering done, CNC machines can duplicate it until the cows come home.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Interesting article, and clearly differing views on production. My sense is that Laporte enjoys the journey to an individual instrument. His production numbers are low, but he pleases, and supports, himself which is fine. Marr has lucked into folks that understand what the instrument needs and can consistently provide it. With all those hundreds of millions of people in China, eventually one is bound to stumble onto somebody who "gets" the instrument, and can turn out the goal on a consistent basis. I used to think that decent bagels could only come from Montreal, but gosh darnit, people in Ottawa eventually learned how to do it. So if Ottawa can make Montreal bagels, then someone in China can make a decent guitar.

As for Robert Godin, I had the pleasure of chatting with him at the Montreal Guitar Expo about 6 years ago, and he is an enthusiastic evangelist for the guitar (to be distinguished from a huckster). A co-worker asked Godin about the older Godin axe he owned and Robert encouraged him to hang onto it, because he simply couldn't get the made-in-Germany pickups it used anymore. I think Godin is a little like Uli Behringer, in that he likes the idea of making decent stuff available to more players for a fair price. If that's one's goal, then certainly you tend to see virtue in factory-style production. I'll certainly say this about Godin; he is willing to experiment in ways that many other major manufacturers aren't.

And of course, one's willingness to adopt more factory-focussed vs single-instrument-focussed production will also depend on whether one is making instruments that depend more on the wood or more on the electronics. Acoustic instruments depend on careful attention to choice and treatment of wood, and marriage of neck, body, etc. While solid-bodies are not just "slapped together", the same sort of attention to the _acoustic_ properties of the wood (as opposed to visual properties) usually doesn't occur, and is replaced with things like attention to neck pocket, finish, setup, etc..


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Godin makes a solid guitar and even though I've owned a couple and gigged for close to 10 years with one I just couldn't get over the look or lack of a look. They seem odd or boring for the most part, sometimes getting close to tradition but also often trying to mix in something new and that just has never connected with me. This isn't the case for all the guitars they make but a good chunk would fall into that category. I wonder if in 50 years a "vintage" Godin will fetch Gibson or Fender money?


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

I just can't get on with the necks. Tried a few different models and it always comes down to the neck.



vadsy said:


> Godin makes a solid guitar and even though I've owned a couple and gigged for close to 10 years with one I just couldn't get over the look or lack of a look. They seem odd or boring for the most part, sometimes getting close to tradition but also often trying to mix in something new and that just has never connected with me. This isn't the case for all the guitars they make but a good chunk would fall into that category. I wonder if in 50 years a "vintage" Godin will fetch Gibson or Fender money?


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

Godin guitars remind me of Taylor guitars-well built but no substance.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I agree with this, used to love what I had long ago but last year after buying the same guitar again I couldn't bond with it. The same goes for a couple of different models, I have two friends who both have Godin's as backups and during downtime at practice I tend to give them a spin and instantly notice it. I think my playing style and technique has changed over the years to a point where the Godin necks aren't for me anymore.



davetcan said:


> I just can't get on with the necks. Tried a few different models and it always comes down to the neck.


I feel the same way, I've owned and love Taylors but for my next acoustic I'm strongly leaning towards a Larrivee.



rollingdam said:


> Godin guitars remind me of Taylor guitars-well built but no substance.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

mhammer said:


> A co-worker asked Godin about the older Godin axe he owned and Robert encouraged him to hang onto it, because he simply couldn't get the made-in-Germany pickups it used anymore.


Those god awful Schallers? Yuck! I got rid of mine a long time ago. Still have the LGX but haven't played it much lately. 

Godin makes nice guitars for sure and to produce at the levels he does, CNC can do wonders... but a hand made guitar, built by a competent luthier will be superior in fit, finish and wood/hardware selection.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

"Godin says that you can’t make a good instrument by hand."... I believe that is his opinion at any scale of production. That is an unfounded and self serving statement.

I sat in on Robert Godin's lecture at the Montreal Guitar Show a few years ago. In his lecture accounted how circuit board mounted pots (as he uses) are far superior to what everyone else does because mounting to the circuit board closes all openings and contaminents can't enter the pots and cause them to be "scratchy"... contaminents enter the pots? 

Actually, check out the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ker5s2tAKU at the 12:00 mark... soldering damages the pot? Circuit board mounted components in guitars is counter-cultural and not service friendly. It serves the manufacturer, not the consumer.

And at the 15:15 mark of this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXGV31hOYhs he explains why his guitars sound so consistently good. Huh?

I laughed at 16:55 when he she checks a dimension and Robert Godin says "if it's no good she gonna send it back to the machine"... well I guess then that machine built guitars aren't so perfect then.

At 17:07 and 20:30 he describes his "set neck" design... the one held together with epoxy and renders the guitar disposable.

Robert Godin has created a succesfull business selling disposable entry-level guitars and I give him great credit for that, but to claim superiority in design or methods (as he so regularly does) is purely spin.

Michael Greenfield wasn't even mentioned in the article...?


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## deadear (Nov 24, 2011)

vadsy said:


> I wonder if in 50 years a "vintage" Godin will fetch Gibson or Fender money?


should fetch the same type of money a vintage Yamaha will fetch.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

LydianGuitars said:


> CNC can do wonders... but a hand made guitar, built by a competent luthier will be superior in fit, finish and wood/hardware selection.


Since a good CNC machine can copy exactly what that competent luthier built, how can the CNC guitar be less than what the one of unit? That just doesn't make sense to me. Am I missing something here?


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Since a good CNC machine can copy exactly what that competent luthier built, how can the CNC guitar be less than what the one of unit? That just doesn't make sense to me. Am I missing something here?


Godin uses epoxy in their "set neck" because it doesn't demand a tight fitting joint. Hide glue or Titebond demand hand fitted joints and take time to produce... Godin cuts the joint loose for ease of assembly then makes up for it with epoxy to fill the gaps.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

dradlin said:


> Godin uses epoxy in their "set neck" because it doesn't demand a tight fitting joint. Hide glue or Titebond demand hand fitted joints and take time to produce... Godin cuts the joint loose for ease of assembly then makes up for it with epoxy to fill the gaps.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


Are you saying that the necks in Godin guitars are installed by machine? BTW, most Godin guitars have bolt on necks.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Are you saying that the necks in Godin guitars are installed by machine? BTW, most Godin guitars have bolt on necks.


They cnc machine them to a size that produces a repeatable gap to facilitate assembly then use epoxy as a gap filling adhesive. I say that relating to their acoustic "set neck" joint that is shown on the video documenting their acoustic build process. A bolt-on joint on an electric is a pretty forgiving and non-glued joint... that's a different animal. In the article he made a blanket statement, and I'll hold him accountable to that statement on all their builds, acoustic/hollow body guitars being the most challenging of their offerings.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

dradlin said:


> They cnc machine them to a size that produces a repeatable gap to facilitate assembly then use epoxy as a gap filling adhesive.


That is what I was understanding as well. However, the CNC machine will produce them to the tight gap as well if that is what was desired. It would take a little longer on the assembly but it would replicate the luthier and still build thousands to his one.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

All I know is I love my S&P 12 string, and I've played a bunch of other Godin guitars I like.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> That is what I was understanding as well. However, the CNC machine will produce them to the tight gap as well if that is what was desired. It would take a little longer on the assembly but it would replicate the luthier and still build thousands to his one.


A single hand built guitar by a skilled luthier will so far outclass a production guitar... machines will make high volume production more efficient however does not inherently make a better guitar compared to a skilled hand build.

A machine cut but hand fitted joint is what Gibson, Martin, and a host of others do... but that is not Godin's claim (machine is better than hand) and is not their practice as shown in their use of epoxy (acoustic/hollow-body).

Taylor is a better example of Godin's statement - Taylor makes a machine cut neck joint that is fully serviceable, though even still the joint used graded inserts/shims to set the neck angle accounting for variability in the manufacturing process... the use of machines does not make setting the neck angle a controlled, repeatable, and hands-off process.

In fact, Godin measures the neck angle after installation then selects a bridge thickness to suit the variable neck angle... Godin cannot claim consistency in sound by virtue of their process when bridge size/mass is variable from guitar to guitar to suit neck angle instead of the instruments voicing. The fact is that Godin is building nothing near a responsive guitar and if there is any consistency it because they are consistently unresponsive.

The design and construction of Godin's neck joint is not serviceable which limits their useful life and renders them as disposable. Understand that when you buy one of their acoustic/hollow-body) guitars and at least you made an informed purchase. Don't buy into Godin's claim that a neck joint will never need to be serviced by virtue of their design and construction.

Godin (acoustic/hollow-body) guitars serve an entry level market and do that well... that should be his claim and he should stop there.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

zontar said:


> All I know is I love my S&P 12 string, and I've played a bunch of other Godin guitars I like.


I love mine too.


That being said, a hand crafted instrument (IMO) is a better one. The builder has a more intimate knowledge of the piece of wood he is working with. A machine can copy, to a degree, everything that he does, but no two pieces of wood are the same and a machine just does not compensate for that. It takes skill and experience at building guitars to do it by hand. Godin has good machine operators.....something different all together. Yes, they build good guitars, I don't think there is any argument over that. A hand crafted instrument will always be more desirable though.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I love mine too.
> 
> 
> That being said, a hand crafted instrument (IMO) is a better one. The builder has a more intimate knowledge of the piece of wood he is working with. A machine can copy, to a degree, everything that he does, but no two pieces of wood are the same and a machine just does not compensate for that. It takes skill and experience at building guitars to do it by hand. Godin has good machine operators.....something different all together. Yes, they build good guitars, I don't think there is any argument over that. A hand crafted instrument will always be more desirable though.


It will if a skilled luthier is making it.
It will also cost more, and therefore not be a viable option for many of us.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

rollingdam said:


> Godin guitars remind me of Taylor guitars-well built but no substance.


I have no idea what that even means.
Are you saying that Taylor doesn't sprinkle the magical pixie dust on their guitars that will turn you into a great player that Martin or Gibson does?

a well built guitar made from high quality materials is as "substantial" as any other one you will ever find.
Its a guitar, not the Spear of Destiny.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

zontar said:


> It will if a skilled luthier is making it.
> It will also cost more, and therefore not be a viable option for many of us.


I think that's the key. Sure a master crasftsman *could* produce a finer guitar than a machine does. But 1) it wont be affordable due to low production numbers 2) it might not be consistent (everyone has good days and bad days) 3) a machine -made guitar is probably *good enough* for 99 % of us. Theres a law of diminishing returns after a certain point where differences in quality may be imperceptible or not cost justifiable.

I need a hand made guitar about as much as I need a handmade car a la Ferrari, Rolls-Royce, handmade furniture, or hand made anything else.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

Diablo said:


> I think that's the key. Sure a master crasftsman *could* produce a finer guitar than a machine does. But 1) it wont be affordable due to low production numbers 2) it might not be consistent (everyone has good days and bad days)


1) The fact that a hand made, quality guitar, built by a skilled luthier is not affordable is a myth. I'm not just talking about my guitars but guitars built by excellent builders with a solid reputation like, for example, Brian Monty.
2) A good luthier would not let a lesser quality instrument leave his shop.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

LydianGuitars said:


> 1) The fact that a hand made, quality guitar, built by a skilled luthier is not affordable is a myth. I'm not just talking about my guitars but guitars built by excellent builders with a solid reputation like, for example, Brian Monty.
> 2) A good luthier would not let a lesser quality instrument leave his shop.


1) Define affordable?
2) again, good days and bad days....human error will never be eliminated 100% both in terms of production as well as quality control.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

Diablo said:


> 1) Define affordable?
> 2) again, good days and bad days....human error will never be eliminated 100% both in terms of production as well as quality control.


1) I see where you're going with this: Affordable is relative and your affordable maybe not be the same as someone else's. What I'm saying is that it is possible to get a custom instrument for a little more than a nice production guitar. Now you're going to ask me what's a nice guitar? LOL!
2) No. Even if I have a bad day, I can scrap a bad piece and start over. I wouldn't put my name on something I don't feel is 100% and many luthiers are like this. You have to find the good ones, that's all. Nothing is perfect whether its hand made or machine made.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

dradlin said:


> A single hand built guitar by a skilled luthier will so far outclass a production guitar... machines will make high volume production more efficient however does not inherently make a better guitar compared to a skilled hand build.


Since a CNC machine can cut the same cut exactly the same time over time, it can consistently produce a better fit than any imperfect luthier, no matter how good he is. Whether one company or many do or do not choose to do so is irrelevant. 

After all, if hand built was better would we still be driving 1908 Model T's.


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## LydianGuitars (Apr 18, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> Since a CNC machine can cut the same cut exactly the same time over time, it can consistently produce a better fit than any imperfect luthier, no matter how good he is. Whether one company or many do or do not choose to do so is irrelevant.


That's where I disagree. A good luthier will get better fit than a machine. Actually, you could CNC the whole thing... the important part is the final fit, which requires manual labor. Luthiers typcially use templates and routers. The result is consistent from piece to piece.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Since a CNC machine can cut the same cut exactly the same time over time, it can consistently produce a better fit than any imperfect luthier, no matter how good he is. Whether one company or many do or do not choose to do so is irrelevant.
> 
> After all, if hand built was better would we still be driving 1908 Model T's.


Well then you are an ideal Godin customer... enjoy!


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Diablo said:


> 1) Define affordable?


I agree with LydianGuitars that it varies depending on the person--although I have a feeling my ceiling for affordable is lower.
It depends on what the guitar is used for and what kind of money I have available.
It also depends on what else you have going on in your life.

I have yet to see a price for a good handmade guitar that falls within my range of affordable.
And there are a lot of production guitars that are not affordable for me either.

If I played professionally my affordable ceiling would be higher, but I don't and I can't spend a lot of money on a guitar no matter how good it is, and how great a deal it is.

If you have a higher ceiling to affordable--that's cool, if yours is lower--that's fine too--we all have to set our own.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

zontar said:


> I agree with LydianGuitars that it varies depending on the person--although I have a feeling my ceiling for affordable is lower.
> It depends on what the guitar is used for and what kind of money I have available.
> It also depends on what else you have going on in your life.
> 
> ...


 While affordable depends on the person, when you put all those people's affordability on a bell shaped curve, you essentially determine THE sweet spot of what ppl are willing to pay fora guitar.
while this forum represents IMO a lot of the over-40, willing and able to pay for ethics, craftsmanship and "mojo", there's A LOT of buyers under 20 who see affordable as being whatever looks like what Dimebag played and costs under $650. And that's pretty much all that matters to them. Vendors found that out, and chased that segment, for which handmade isn't going to be a good fit.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i've run plenty of cnc machines. not for making guitars, but for making other things. alot of people get confused about them because they've never run anything that was _computer numerically controlled_. yes, they are capable of precision to a degree your eye cannot see. but they can be made to run sloppily as well. the ones i have used will work with tolerances as small as .0001". however, to get that kind of precision they have to be made to run slowly, the work has to be meticulously positioned in the machine, and the machine has to be well maintained. so anyone who is running one to make anything is compromising between accuracy and speed. you can be relatively fast, and still be pretty accurate with cnc. with enough jigs and templates, a guitar can be hand cut pretty fast also. i've seen enough furniture and cabinet guys do their thing to understand how the same principles would apply to a guitar. the things that make the machines more productive are consistency and thrift. the guy doing it by hand can have an off day. the machine does or does not. the man gets tired, the machine doesn't. the man works on the piece in his hands, performing a single task at a time. the machine can do several steps simultaneously, and while it's doing that, the operator can be doing still other things instead of standing their watching the machine. also the machine can often get more pieces from the material than a man might, by nesting the pieces in the most efficient manner. less waste means more product that earns. even pennies add up.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

For me, the happy medium, is machine made guitars with meticulous and discerning attention to quality control by a caring expert.
my dentists office works this way. My dentist rarely puts her fingers in my mouth, but she has a assembly line of lower paid assistants that do, while she double checks their work.

the biggest problem with lemon guitars IMO, isn't that they were made by machines or hand, it's that no one stopped them from going out the door.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Much of this discussion overestimates the amount of CNC work used in guitar construction, especially on acoustic guitars... most work is done with hand tools and jigs and fixtures. It's not like a CNC machine spits out a finished guitar.

In a production environment, quality is tied to the skill of the operator and their physical/mental state, the instrument design, the process design, materials, and the design and condition of the tooling (machines, jigs, and fixture repeatability). You can be assured that a skilled and honorable luthier who puts his name on the guitar will be more conscientious in all of this than someone punching the clock.

The discussion also underestimates the differences in $500 factory produced guitar and a finely handcrafted guitar produced with skill and intention by an experienced and qualified luthier. Sure, a handcrafted guitar costs more. But don't kid yourself to think that a $500 factory production guitar as anywhere near that of a finely hand built and responsive guitar.

The process of handcrafting a guitar is not solely assembling a group of dimensioned parts... material selection and understanding its properties and sizing to perform as the luthier commands is integral to the process and absent in a factory.

In contrast, factory produced guitars are overbuilt to set dimensions without regard to variable material properties and minimizing warranty claims trumps all other factors.

Sure we all have budget limits, but don't fool yourself to think that guitars outside of your personal budget do not have more to offer... the law of diminishing returns doesn't start at $500 (it's more like $5000). Though not every hand built and high priced guitar is guaranteed to be a responsive guitar... but a $500 factory built guitar is 100% guaranteed to unresponsive. 


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

dradlin said:


> Much of this discussion overestimates the amount of CNC work used in guitar construction, especially on acoustic guitars... most work is done with hand tools and jigs and fixtures. It's not like a CNC machine spits out a finished guitar.
> 
> In a production environment, quality is tied to the skill of the operator and their physical/mental state, the instrument design, the process design, materials, and the design and condition of the tooling (machines, jigs, and fixture repeatability). You can be assured that a skilled and honorable luthier who puts his name on the guitar will be more conscientious in all of this than someone punching the clock.
> 
> ...


I'm really not sure that in a blind play-off, the differences between a $500-$5000 guitar are as drastic as you think they are, these days, , based on my time spent in the sound room at cosmo music comparing $5000 R9's, to $1200. Studios....and wanting so badly to be able to justify the R8/R9 without being able to do so).
nor do I think everyone needs as "responsive" a guitar as you imply, if there even was as vast a difference as you suggest (and i dont think there is), many musicians will derive their tone from pickups, effects and amps, not to mention their own fingers.
i love my handmade Lado guitars....but can't honestly say their any better than my Cnc made Charvel equivalents.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

dradlin said:


> Much of this discussion overestimates the amount of CNC work used in guitar construction, especially on acoustic guitars... most work is done with hand tools and jigs and fixtures. It's not like a CNC machine spits out a finished guitar.
> 
> In a production environment, quality is tied to the skill of the operator and their physical/mental state, the instrument design, the process design, materials, and the design and condition of the tooling (machines, jigs, and fixture repeatability). You can be assured that a skilled and honorable luthier who puts his name on the guitar will be more conscientious in all of this than someone punching the clock.
> 
> ...



with a $5000 guitar you get pretty wood, some nice bling, beautiful finish work, and attention to detail. with SOME you might get an exotic set of pick ups. but unless you think he's got harry potter chained up in the back room, pots and caps are only gonna get so good. fret wire, tuners, the bridge, the nut. they all reach their height of quality long before the $5000 guitar. so where does all this magic come from? it's in your head, imo. certainly a $500 (new) guitar is going to a lesser instrument in almost every way. but bump it up to the start of the pro level instruments. say, $1000. what is it that makes the $5000 guitar so much better? it's fit and finish, prettier wood. that's it. otherwise, all these guitar gods out there we all dig so much would be playing and recording with custom instruments. but they don't. i'm sure there are a few out there who use them exclusively, although i have no idea who they are. no one in my pedestrian collection. all the big boys own some. but they never see #1 status, they never get much attention in the studio. all the greatest music we've ever loved was made on factory guitars. if the difference was more than bling, this would not be so.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

My comments have been specific to acoustic instruments. 

If anyone thinks that a $1000 factory guitar is in the same league as a handcrafted and responsive guitar then you have not yet experienced the latter... and you won't find that guitar at a retailer like L&M but rather a fine guitar dealer.




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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> with a $5000 guitar you get pretty wood, some nice bling, beautiful finish work, and attention to detail. with SOME you might get an exotic set of pick ups. but unless you think he's got harry potter chained up in the back room, pots and caps are only gonna get so good. fret wire, tuners, the bridge, the nut. they all reach their height of quality long before the $5000 guitar. so where does all this magic come from? it's in your head, imo. certainly a $500 (new) guitar is going to a lesser instrument in almost every way. but bump it up to the start of the pro level instruments. say, $1000. what is it that makes the $5000 guitar so much better? it's fit and finish, prettier wood. that's it. otherwise, all these guitar gods out there we all dig so much would be playing and recording with custom instruments. but they don't. i'm sure there are a few out there who use them exclusively, although i have no idea who they are. no one in my pedestrian collection. all the big boys own some. but they never see #1 status, they never get much attention in the studio. all the greatest music we've ever loved was made on factory guitars. if the difference was more than bling, this would not be so.


With today's manufacturing methods, this is absolutely correct. If anyone doubts this, watch some of the YouTube videos on how most guitars are made these days. The break point might even be lower than $1000.00 and as low as $700.00.



> My comments have been specific to acoustic instruments.
> 
> If anyone thinks that a $1000 factory guitar is in the same league as a handcrafted and responsive guitar then you have not yet experienced the latter... and you won't find that guitar at a retailer like L&M but rather a fine guitar dealer.


There are some excellent guitars coming our of China and Asia and with these people making only a few dollars a day, they are just as capable of making a $5000.00-10000.00 guitar for $1000.00. Those kind of guitars are labour intensive and that's where the price comes from. Ten or fifteen years ago, I would be more likely to agree with you, Those days have come and gone.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> With today's manufacturing methods, this is absolutely correct. If anyone doubts this, watch some of the YouTube videos on how most guitars are made these days. The break point might even be lower than $1000.00 and as low as $700.00.
> 
> There are some excellent guitars coming our of China and Asia and with these people making only a few dollars a day, they are just as capable of making a $5000.00-10000.00 guitar for $1000.00. Those kind of guitars are labour intensive and that's where the price comes from. Ten or fifteen years ago, I would be more likely to agree with you, Those days have come and gone.


Oh I understand now, you've watched some YouTube videos...


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

LydianGuitars said:


> That's where I disagree. A good luthier will get better fit than a machine. Actually, you could CNC the whole thing... the important part is the final fit, which requires manual labor. Luthiers typcially use templates and routers. The result is consistent from piece to piece.


Sorry but you don't know what you're talking about. I am a Cnc machinist and that is what I specialize in. Wood , aluminum, iron, or plastic it's irrelevant, a good machinist who knows his Machine, knows his tooling and knows his machining formulas for the material being machined , can achieve slip fit tolerance(.001") on a consistent level repeatedly
At a production level. Period.
It's my belief that hand builders have the advantage of selecting the best combination of tonal woods, and match them appropriately for each individual instrument.
I also believe that the combination of the two very respected skills can build a quality production instrument.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

urko99 said:


> Sorry but you don't know what you're talking about. I am a Cnc machinist and that is what I specialize in. Wood , aluminum, iron, or plastic it's irrelevant, a good machinist who knows his Machine, knows his tooling and knows his machining formulas for the material being machined , can achieve slip fit tolerance(.001") on a consistent level repeatedly
> At a production level. Period.
> It's my belief that hand builders have the advantage of selecting the best combination of tonal woods, and match them appropriately for each individual instrument.
> I also believe that the combination of the two very respected skills can build a quality production instrument.


Other than carving the neck, a CNC machine is not greatly involved in the production of an acoustic guitar... especially in the building and voicing of the box.


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## urko99 (Mar 30, 2009)

Agreed. My reference is geared more towards solid body electrics.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

dradlin said:


> Oh I understand now, you've watched some YouTube videos...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


Yes, of actual production.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> Yes, of actual production.


You're an expert then... forgive me.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

My wife watches home reno shows on HGTV, so now she wonders why the carpenter working in our house can't install 9 doors and 1200sqft of baseboards in 45 minutes. "I've seen it done on TV" she said, I was truly hoping she was joking but left the room just to be safe.



Steadfastly said:


> Yes, of actual production.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

dradlin said:


> You're an expert then... forgive me.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


Expert= "X" is an unknow factor and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure. 

Buy, hey, you're forgiven.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

Diablo said:


> While affordable depends on the person, when you put all those people's affordability on a bell shaped curve, you essentially determine THE sweet spot of what ppl are willing to pay fora guitar.
> while this forum represents IMO a lot of the over-40, willing and able to pay for ethics, craftsmanship and "mojo", there's A LOT of buyers under 20 who see affordable as being whatever looks like what Dimebag played and costs under $650. And that's pretty much all that matters to them. Vendors found that out, and chased that segment, for which handmade isn't going to be a good fit.


What about those like me that are not under 20, and who don't want a Dimebag guitar, and also don't have the means to buy a $2000+ guitar.
And even if I did, odes it make sense?
None of my guitars cost a ton of money--and I love them all.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I don't think anyone is claiming that a machine built guitar is bad. As a long time CNC set up operator (including aerospace components to within a micron) I can attest to the reliability and repeatability of the machines. Again, a lot depends on the operator because offsets have to be changed to compensate for tool wear, hardness of material changing etc. The machine will make perfect copies over and over again. Now that sounds perfect, but only if the material is the same each time, which wood is not. No 2 pieces of wood are the same and a hand builder works with and around that. Making constant minute adjustments in what he is doing. No 2, in this case, are exactly the same. Though the differences may not be seen, they likely can be felt. 

You also have to consider that 1 person can hand build maybe 1 guitar a month. That 1 guitar has to pay for everything each month. How much is a reasonable salary for a skilled artisan? If you are using CNC, you can batch things out fairly quickly in comparison and the joinery/contours will be as perfect as the set-up/programming. If you can make 10/month, then the salary can be spread out a bit and price becomes more negotiable. You can thank Hartland Peavey for bringing CNC guitars to market, as I think he was one of the pioneers of the process, and those t-60's were pretty good guitars. Now Mr. Taylor, Mr. Godin and Mr. Smith use them and are building beautiful guitars and they are refining the processes. I have a couple of S&P acoustics that I love and they are machine built. I am not so keen on my buddies 60's era Martin. That being said. Someone who is hand building is making quite the commitment and if they can reach the required skill level, will build a superior instrument. Again it a comes down to the skill of the builder, weather building by hand or machine. If you want to put a slightly different slant on it, think of a CNC as a machine moving a tool around a template, it is just that the template is digital. Lots of hand builders use templates.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Why are we talking custom guitars versus production, exactly?

My understanding of a custom instrument is this: you buy a custom guitar because you cannot find the exact combination of specs in a production guitar. There is no other reason besides bragging rights. What makes you think luthiers don't use CNC for part of the process?


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## ne1roc (Mar 4, 2006)

I'm glad a bunch of CNC operators spoke up. Many of us older guys of us are highly skilled machinists who started on conventional milling machines working to extremely tight tolerances that just are not possible with wood. A good luthier or machinist are highly skilled with their handwork. Their finishing touches, small precision adjustments that cannot be performed by machine are the value added portions of a quality instrument/tool. 

That being said, a CNC machine is far superior in achieving a tight tolerance, repeatedly and even with one offs, compared to the use of templates and routers. Anyone who denies this is living in the past.

Combine with CNC machinery with a skilled luthier will no doubt produce the highest quality instrument.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Budda said:


> Why are we talking custom guitars versus production, exactly?



I don't think a single person hand building guitars can approach the numbers of units needed to be called "production". Although, several people each doing individual segments of the work (production line) would be.

Probably a bit of difference of opinion on what "hand built" means too. I consider my guitar body "hand built", yet I used several types of machinery and templates. Table saws, band saws, routers, jointer, planer, thickness sander, R.O. sander, and more were used. I made templates for the body, neck pocket, pick up pockets, controls. Where is the line? Using them once and putting them away is hand work and having them permanently set up at a station is production?


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## allanr (Jan 11, 2012)

"Hand built" has become one of the most overused cliches in instrument marketing. I collect and play ukulele. It is amazing how many Chinese factory built ukuleles are advertised as being hand built.

Unfortunately, I think the term is now so degraded as to be meaningless.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Machining wood is not like machining metals.

There is not a single part on either an electric or an acoustic guitar that comes off a CNC machine finished and ready for assembly to the guitar. Any wooden part coming off of a CNC machine needs to be hand sanded or hand fitted (for a gap free joint).

As I have prior stated and evidenced in the video of the Godin factory tour, their acoustic guitar neck joints are machined to a toleranced gap and (because of its cohesive properties) epoxy is used to fill the gap and glue the joint. That is not a finely crafted nor a serviceable joint.

Gibson on the other hand in the case of their Les Paul neck joint machines the mortise to final size and the tenon slightly oversize, then hand fits the tenon to the neck on every guitar. Gibson doesn't use gap filing epoxy in their neck joint, instead they use Titebond (good adhesion but poor cohesion) which demands a gap free joint.

For similar reasons and in similar approach (yet different neck joint), Martin hand fits the dovetail neck joint made with a dovetail joint.

So Godin, Gibson, and Martin all use CNC machines but none of them produce a perfectly fit joint off the machine... it's because they can't.


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## dradlin (Feb 27, 2010)

Budda said:


> Why are we talking custom guitars versus production, exactly?


Because Robert Godin was quoted as saying that a hand built guitar is not as good as a machine built guitar.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

wow really? we sure went down a bunny trail that time didnt we? hahahaha


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

ne1roc said:


> I'm glad a bunch of CNC operators spoke up. Many of us older guys of us are highly skilled machinists who started on conventional milling machines working to extremely tight tolerances that just are not possible with wood. A good luthier or machinist are highly skilled with their handwork. Their finishing touches, small precision adjustments that cannot be performed by machine are the value added portions of a quality instrument/tool.
> 
> _*That being said, a CNC machine is far superior in achieving a tight tolerance, repeatedly and even with one offs, compared to the use of templates and routers. Anyone who denies this is living in the past.*_
> 
> Combine with CNC machinery with a skilled luthier will no doubt produce the highest quality instrument.


Thank you for speaking up. I think there may be a few here living in the past or would prefer living in the past.


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