# Please help before I go crazy - 3 way switch noise



## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

EDIT - PROBLEM SOLVED 

TO ANYBODY WHO GOES ON ABOUT HOW GREAT SWITCHCRAFT SWITCHES ARE, I CAN TELL YOU NOW "DON'T BELIEVE THE HYPE" 

SEE PAGE THREE

Three-way Les Paul toggle pops and crackles when I switch between pickups.

THIS PROBLEM OCCURS ONLY WHEN STRINGS ARE VIBRATING.

Wiggling the switch when strings are muted does not make any noise

I have tried three different switches - two of them are Switchcraft

I have tried three different amps - same on all of them

I have rewired all grounds to back of V pot. All the soldering looks good and does not appear to have any cold joints.

I have De-ox sprayed and buffed connection points with 1500 paper.

The mags run to a Graphtech piezo pre-amp and then to a stereo jack. Have checked all the connections there.

Bridge pickup has braided shield, neck is four wire with foil shield. Could anything be interfering with the Graphtech stuff?

I have metered between strings and where bridge ground connects to V pot - on the ohm setting it reads something and then rapidly dwindles to zero. Am I doing this right?

I've tried everything I can find on the web...


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I hate these mysterious electronic problems...so frustrating and time consuming. 

I can't really help (other than to be supportive) but I'm putting my money on the pickups and/or associated circuits...only because you mention that ....


NGroeneveld said:


> THIS PROBLEM OCCURS ONLY WHEN STRINGS ARE VIBRATING.












I'll be following this thread with interest.

Good Luck...Stay Sane


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

I tried this using leads instead of a resistor - the pop goes away, but the guitar sounds the same in all three switch positions

" The pop comes from a split-second open circuit situation when moving the switch from position to position, much the same as if you were to unplug the guitar without muting the amp. The easiest solution is to solder one lead of a resistor to the lug where the bridge pickup is soldered to the switch, and the other lead to the lug where the neck pickup is soldered. I'd try a 1 meg 1/4 watt resistor. The resistance of the new resistor is high enough that it won't effect the sound from the guitar, but low enough that it should help tame the pop.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Did this switch noise just start recently "out of the blue" or has it always been an issue?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Piezo preamps will generally assume there is only one pickup on the guitar; likely situated in the bridge. Since there is a presumption of only one pickup, there is also a presumption that there will be no pickup switching. There will also be a presumption that the input impedance of the preamp should be kept as high as possible. All of that means that the input cap of the preamp will not be terminated, so every time you switch pickups, you momentarily dosconnect the preamp and then reconnect it. On pedals, that generally leads to a pop. The solution here, from your description at least, sounds like it would be the same as for popping pedals: solder a resistor (let's say 2.2meg to 4.7meg) from the input of the preamp to ground. That will let the input cap bleed off any stored charge to ground at all times.

If you try this, let us know if it does the trick. Fingers crossed.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mhammer said:


> On pedals, that generally leads to a pop. The solution here, from your description at least, sounds like it would be the same as for popping pedals: solder a resistor (let's say 2.2meg to 4.7meg) from the input of the preamp to ground. That will let the input cap bleed off any stored charge to ground at all times.


@mhammer Every time I hear the word "pop" and "switch" in the same sentence, I think of how many times you (and others) must have written this suggested solution. I hope it works in this situation and, like you, I am looking forward to knowing the result.


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

mhammer said:


> Piezo preamps will generally assume there is only one pickup on the guitar; likely situated in the bridge. Since there is a presumption of only one pickup, there is also a presumption that there will be no pickup switching. There will also be a presumption that the input impedance of the preamp should be kept as high as possible. All of that means that the input cap of the preamp will not be terminated, so every time you switch pickups, you momentarily dosconnect the preamp and then reconnect it. On pedals, that generally leads to a pop. The solution here, from your description at least, sounds like it would be the same as for popping pedals: solder a resistor (let's say 2.2meg to 4.7meg) from the input of the preamp to ground. That will let the input cap bleed off any stored charge to ground at all times.
> 
> If you try this, let us know if it does the trick. Fingers crossed.


Thanks I will try that - if I can get the resistor. What should the wattage be on the resistor? quarter? half? I just talked to a guy at an electronic outlet - he said to try a cap rather than a resistor across the neck and bridge lugs on the switch.


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

greco said:


> Did this switch noise just start recently "out of the blue" or has it always been an issue?


new wiring situation


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

mhammer said:


> Piezo preamps will generally assume there is only one pickup on the guitar; likely situated in the bridge. Since there is a presumption of only one pickup, there is also a presumption that there will be no pickup switching. There will also be a presumption that the input impedance of the preamp should be kept as high as possible. All of that means that the input cap of the preamp will not be terminated, so every time you switch pickups, you momentarily dosconnect the preamp and then reconnect it. On pedals, that generally leads to a pop. The solution here, from your description at least, sounds like it would be the same as for popping pedals: solder a resistor (let's say 2.2meg to 4.7meg) from the input of the preamp to ground. That will let the input cap bleed off any stored charge to ground at all times.
> 
> If you try this, let us know if it does the trick. Fingers crossed.


I'm assuming that the input wire is the one going out from the V pot to the preamp, and the resistor will be grounded onto the back of the V pot


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

NGroeneveld said:


> Thanks I will try that - if I can get the resistor. What should the wattage be on the resistor? quarter? half? I just talked to a guy at an electronic outlet - he said to try a cap rather than a resistor across the neck and bridge lugs on the switch.


If a 1/8w resistor works in the pedals you feed your guitar to, then it will clearly work here. Higher wattage resistors certainly won't work any _worse_, but just aren't necessary, and take up more room. But if you can't score 1/8w, 1.4w or 1/2w will do fine.

And yes, wherever the lead from the volume pot to the preamp lands IS the input.

However, now that you bring it up, I may have spoken too soon. My "diagnosis and prescription" is based on some assumptions about where in the sequence of things your pickup selector switch is located. Please indicate which of these scenarios is the correct one:
a) pickups->selector->controls->preamp->output-jack
b) pickups->controls->selector->preamp->output-jack
c) pickups->selector->preamp->controls->output-jack

B and C would yield the popping I described, but A would not, and would require a different cure.


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

mhammer said:


> If a 1/8w resistor works in the pedals you feed your guitar to, then it will clearly work here. Higher wattage resistors certainly won't work any _worse_, but just aren't necessary, and take up more room. But if you can't score 1/8w, 1.4w or 1/2w will do fine.
> 
> And yes, wherever the lead from the volume pot to the preamp lands IS the input.
> 
> ...


The pickup leads go to the 3 way switch. like this

2 Humbuckers/3-Way Toggle Switch/1 Volume/1 Tone


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

mhammer said:


> If a 1/8w resistor works in the pedals you feed your guitar to, then it will clearly work here. Higher wattage resistors certainly won't work any _worse_, but just aren't necessary, and take up more room. But if you can't score 1/8w, 1.4w or 1/2w will do fine.
> 
> And yes, wherever the lead from the volume pot to the preamp lands IS the input.
> 
> ...


The pickups go to the 3 way switch, then to the volume pot, then the input goes to the preamp and then out to the stereo jack.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

In which case, kindly disregard all my blathering earlier. If the volume pot is hardwired to the input of the preamp, then the input cap on the preamp has a bleed-off path to ground, and is *not* the source of your problem. Sorry for the detour. Ah well, I tried.


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

mhammer said:


> In which case, kindly disregard all my blathering earlier. If the volume pot is hardwired to the input of the preamp, then the input cap on the preamp has a bleed-off path to ground, and is *not* the source of your problem. Sorry for the detour. Ah well, I tried.


I'll try the resistor or cap across the neck and bridge lugs


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

NGroeneveld said:


> new wiring situation


What wiring changes did you make from the previous?


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

mhammer said:


> In which case, kindly disregard all my blathering earlier. If the volume pot is hardwired to the input of the preamp, then the input cap on the preamp has a bleed-off path to ground, and is *not* the source of your problem. Sorry for the detour. Ah well, I tried.


Thanks for your time anyway


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

greco said:


> What wiring changes did you make from the previous?


Guitar originally had one neck pickup - I added a bridge pickup, and a Graphtech piezo


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

bridging the neck and bridge lugs with a one meg resistor did not work - guess I will have to take it to an expert


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

Get rid of the piezo and see if it stops. I'm guessing its still sending a signal.


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

BSTheTech said:


> Get rid of the piezo and see if it stops. I'm guessing its still sending a signal.


Well - I'll be away for a week so nothing is going to get done on it for a while. Will disconnect the whole piezo system and wire it up with mags only and see what happens


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

Haven't followed the thread, but curious if OP went crazy. Lemme know.


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

adcandour said:


> Haven't followed the thread, but curious if OP went crazy. Lemme know.


Not yet lol


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

mhammer said:


> In which case, kindly disregard all my blathering earlier. If the volume pot is hardwired to the input of the preamp, then the input cap on the preamp has a bleed-off path to ground, and is *not* the source of your problem. Sorry for the detour. Ah well, I tried.


Hey Mark. Well now it's my turn to ask that you forgive me and ignore all my blathering about pre amps etc. Now that I am back from March break, I disconnected the piezo and pre amp system and rewired the mags to a regular jack - guess what - the switch still makes the noise! So it's got nothing to do with the piezo system it has to be something about the mag pickups. They are wound by different builders, one is a four wire and the other is a two wire with braided shield. Could the vintage wiring be creating a problem?


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

BSTheTech said:


> Get rid of the piezo and see if it stops. I'm guessing its still sending a signal.


disconnected piezo - see post above


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

NGroeneveld said:


> Hey Mark. Well now it's my turn to ask that you forgive me and ignore all my blathering about pre amps etc. Now that I am back from March break, I disconnected the piezo and pre amp system and rewired the mags to a regular jack - guess what - the switch still makes the noise! So it's got nothing to do with the piezo system it has to be something about the mag pickups. They are wound by different builders, one is a four wire and the other is a two wire with braided shield. Could the vintage wiring be creating a problem?


So, we're getting a little closer to pinning things down In which case, if a simple 3-way toggle, and an entirely passive circuit/wiring yields crackling noise, the noise is stemming from intermitten connection somewhere. What are the possible sources?
1) The switch itself is making intermittent connection with the "leaves" in it. If it is an older, or repurposed switch, this is possible. If the switch is tarnished, the continuity might be sometimes-yes-sometimes-no.
2) The wiring TO the switch. This could be a cold solder joint somewhere somewhere between pickup and jack. It looks like it is soldered, but it isn't really, and micro-jiggles toggle it between continuity and contact. 
3) It might also be an intermittent short such that sometimes the hot lead is shorted to ground, and sometimes not.
4) On some older pots, there can be discontinuities between the wiper and the resistive strip.


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

mhammer said:


> So, we're getting a little closer to pinning things down In which case, if a simple 3-way toggle, and an entirely passive circuit/wiring yields crackling noise, the noise is stemming from intermitten connection somewhere. What are the possible sources?
> 1) The switch itself is making intermittent connection with the "leaves" in it. If it is an older, or repurposed switch, this is possible. If the switch is tarnished, the continuity might be sometimes-yes-sometimes-no.
> 2) The wiring TO the switch. This could be a cold solder joint somewhere somewhere between pickup and jack. It looks like it is soldered, but it isn't really, and micro-jiggles toggle it between continuity and contact.
> 3) It might also be an intermittent short such that sometimes the hot lead is shorted to ground, and sometimes not.
> 4) On some older pots, there can be discontinuities between the wiper and the resistive strip.


I've tried different switches (Switchcraft) - one of which is back in another guitar and is working perfectly - The volume pot has had a lot of soldering to it - I'll replace it and redo all the switch connections - again!!


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## BSTheTech (Sep 30, 2015)

If the pups are from different manufacturers they are likely out of phase. Not sure why that would cause that problem. Have you checked phase?


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

BSTheTech said:


> If the pups are from different manufacturers they are likely out of phase. Not sure why that would cause that problem. Have you checked phase?


They do not sound out of phase


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mhammer said:


> 1) The switch itself is making intermittent connection with the "leaves" in it. If it is an older, or repurposed switch, this is possible. If the switch is tarnished, the continuity might be sometimes-yes-sometimes-no.


This is exactly what happened to me on a guitar I was recently working on for a friend.


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

mhammer said:


> So, we're getting a little closer to pinning things down In which case, if a simple 3-way toggle, and an entirely passive circuit/wiring yields crackling noise, the noise is stemming from intermitten connection somewhere. What are the possible sources?
> 1) The switch itself is making intermittent connection with the "leaves" in it. If it is an older, or repurposed switch, this is possible. If the switch is tarnished, the continuity might be sometimes-yes-sometimes-no.
> 2) The wiring TO the switch. This could be a cold solder joint somewhere somewhere between pickup and jack. It looks like it is soldered, but it isn't really, and micro-jiggles toggle it between continuity and contact.
> 3) It might also be an intermittent short such that sometimes the hot lead is shorted to ground, and sometimes not.
> 4) On some older pots, there can be discontinuities between the wiper and the resistive strip.


Time to take out the vintage wired pickup and try a different one - I've done everything else multiple times


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

NGroeneveld said:


> Time to take out the vintage wired pickup and try a different one - I've done everything else multiple times


didn't work


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

So after all this, after three different SWITCHCRAFT switches in a row, all three switches were pooched! How can this be?? FFS!!! Every thread I've ever read on this topic, and I've read them all now, says well you should use a Switchcraft. But no. Three effing switches in a row. After spending hours wiring and rewiring. The ironic part is, I broke the tab off one of my switches a while back and repaired it - I tried that switch and lo and behold - that switch does not make any noise. The busted switch that I fixed is the one that works. Go figure. I believed the hype on Switchcraft and now I'm just shaking my head. Anyway - problem solved

Thanks @mhammer for all your time on this


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I can empathize with you. I will never buy Switchcraft switches again. 

While installing one in a guitar, I was holding it incorrectly and unfortunately bent the contact leaves a tiny amount. I tried for several hours to repair it and gave up.

I was extremely frustrated that the switch cost me $25.00 and was so fragile and temperamental.

I now use this style...









Congrats on repairing the old switch and getting everything to work.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

So, the other day, my wife reads something on-line about how to remove tarnish on silverware using aluminum foil, baking soda and hot water. Worked like a charm. Does anyone know of any similar sort of "home chemistry" for removing tarnish off switch contacts?


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## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

nevermind


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## NGroeneveld (Jan 23, 2011)

greco said:


> I can empathize with you. I will never buy Switchcraft switches again.
> 
> While installing one in a guitar, I was holding it incorrectly and unfortunately bent the contact leaves a tiny amount. I tried for several hours to repair it and gave up.
> 
> ...


You know, I tested the entire system in one of my other guitars while waiting for this one to be shipped to me. Everything worked perfectly. That system had an Alpha switch, but I didn't want to use it because 'it's a cheap switch' and the other reason, the threads are different for the little wooden knobs I make - I tap them for Switchcraft.


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