# SOCAN question



## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Hey guys.

We have never used SOCAN before, but thought for our next release we would maybe register.

When you register online though, on the first page it asks the release date of the CD. What if the CD is not released yet? I assume the CD should have a SOCAN logo on it, but what if it doesn't come out until next year?

Thanks for any input


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

bumpity bump. Anyone have any idea? Thanks!


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## 4345567 (Jun 26, 2008)

__________


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2010)

nkjanssen said:


> I don't think you're even eligible to register until the CD is released. I always register AFTER release.


Yea, what would they be collecting royalties on if there's no product out there?

TDU: don't mistake registering with SOCAN with registering your copyright on your songs. Not the same thing.


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

iaresee said:


> TDU: don't mistake registering with SOCAN with registering your copyright on your songs. Not the same thing.


What is the difference? Thanks.


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## snacker (Jun 26, 2008)

are you already a member? - give them a call if you have questions - i've always registered my songs with them as soon as they were written so that i could collect royalities for them when i play live, when they're broadcast on college radio etc


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

snacker said:


> are you already a member? - give them a call if you have questions - i've always registered my songs with them as soon as they were written so that i could collect royalities for them when i play live, when they're broadcast on college radio etc


I guess the confusion for me comes with how they word the various submission categories. I could sign up as you did, but we will have a CD ready in a month so i was confused.

How much luck do you guys have with SOCAN? CBC was playing my buddies bands tunes a ton, but he hound to hound then hell out of the station to submit cue sheets to socan, then socan had not interesting in paying.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2010)

Mark P said:


> What is the difference? Thanks.


Copyright is granted by law as soon as a work comes in to existence. You don't need to register a work to hold the copyright on it, but registering it makes it easier to prove that you were the creator. And you don't register with SOCAN. That's not what SOCAN is for, they aren't even a government agency. You register with Copyright Board of Canada.

SOCAN is royalty collection service. When you register with them you're giving them ppermission to collect royalties of performances of your works on your behalf and to pay out royalties using their methods (which are not _exact_ BTW). That's why they don't want to hear about stuff that doesn't exist already -- they can't collect royalties on works that aren't published. So you can wait until the CD is done to register it.


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## Guest (Dec 13, 2010)

torndownunit said:


> How much luck do you guys have with SOCAN?


Luck? It's not so much about luck as it is about understanding how SOCAN collect and pays out royalties. First, here's a quick paper on how SOCAN scans and collects royalties: http://www.socan.ca/pdf/en/mem/BDS-DAI_FAQs_Chart.pdf -- it's not perfect. They have some stations reporting 100% of their cue sheets, some report a portion and others are scanned periodically by SOCAN and the sample data is extrapolated. Then they run it all through a complicated algorithm to determine payouts. They pay out quarterly and only if your royalties are >$5 for that quarter. Less than $5 and they accumulate until you hit >$5 (so you don't *not* get paid if you make less than $5 in quarter, it's just delayed).

You can request the royalty calculation algorithm from SOCAN if you're member. It's not straight-forward that's for sure.



> CBC was playing my buddies bands tunes a ton, but he hound to hound then hell out of the station to submit cue sheets to socan, then socan had not interesting in paying.


According to SOCAN the CBC submits 100% of the cue sheets. So not sure what to say about this one...sounds like your buddy might not be telling the truth.


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

iaresee said:


> Copyright is granted by law as soon as a work comes in to existence. You don't need to register a work to hold the copyright on it, but registering it makes it easier to prove that you were the creator. And you don't register with SOCAN. That's not what SOCAN is for, they aren't even a government agency. You register with Copyright Board of Canada.
> 
> SOCAN is royalty collection service. When you register with them you're giving them permission to collect royalties for your performances on your behalf and to pay out royalties using their methods (which are not _exact_ BTW). That's why they don't want to hear about stuff that doesn't exist already -- they can't collect royalties on works that aren't published. So you can wait until the CD is done to register it.


Thanks for the info!


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## Guest (Dec 15, 2010)

Mark P said:


> Thanks for the info!


No problem. There's a typo in the quoted text. It should read: "permission to collect royalties of performances of your works on your behalf" not "permission to collect royalties for your performances on your behalf". If someone else plays one of your songs, SOCAN collects the royalty for you. (Technically if you play your own song they collect for you too...it's weird like that)


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

iaresee said:


> No problem. There's a typo in the quoted text. It should read: "permission to collect royalties of performances of your works on your behalf" not "permission to collect royalties for your performances on your behalf". If someone else plays one of your songs, SOCAN collects the royalty for you. (Technically if you play your own song they collect for you too...it's weird like that)


From what I have heard, they aren't doing a fantastic job lately. My friends have had their tunes played on the radio, mainly CBC and didn't recieve any payment. They contacted the stations, and the cue sheets had been submitted. It's SOCAN being lazy. I guess they are too busy harassing bars over collecting for cover bands playing there etc. I really question what SOCAN is up to nowadays.


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