# The future of boutique tube amps? No shades required .....



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Post #107 of this thread on another forum ......

https://www.thegearpage.net/board/i...es-handwired-even-mean-anymore.1980477/page-6

....... does not lead to much optimism. Highly respected builder of CarolAnn Amps is scaling back production to a 'building for friends' model because there is just no money in it any more. At least, not enough to make a living. He does not paint a rosy picture. 

Maybe if your boutique company is assembly lining amps, a la Friedman, Bogner, Tone King with BAD, you have a fighting chance. Maybe not.

I don't think this will affect the big guys, but will probably thin out the boutique options, in the long run.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I wonder if the price of new boutique comes down or used goes up?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I had no idea it was this bad. I thought it was going to be about digital starting to over take tube.


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## Destropiate (Jan 17, 2007)

Seems like there's just too many purist boutique amp builders now. Not enough purist players left who don't already have a bare bones boutique or vintage amp. I can imagine it's hard for the builders to keep up with the onset of digital rigs and competition between each other.
I went on an amp buying quest years ago and had a Frenzel, Bludtone, Ceriatone, and Celtic. Not sure if any of those companies exist outside of Ceriatone anymore.
I ended up keeping a Rivera K55 that can do a great Marshall/Fender thing in one box and a solid state Quilter OD200 for a grab and go and pedal platform. Both have all the features I could want, both sound great and both were well under 1k used.
Most boutique amps are priced out of the average players range. Most, as far as I can tell are selling either a slightly different take on or exact copy of either a Marshall or Fender style of amp. There are so many builders out there that it doesn't surprise me that there aren't enough guys willing to drop 3k or more on a plexi or vox or fender style amp for them all to have demand. Having a handwired amp made better or equal to the vintage amps they are based on probably doesn't matter to many people under the age of 40.
A lot of boutique high dollar amps I see don't come with basic features like an fx loop, master volume or sometimes even a TMB tonestack.
There aren't a lot of younger guys I know who want a 3k amp that has nothing more than tone, volume, and an input jack....regardless of how cool the headshell looks. The ones I know that can afford it spent their money on a vintage peice for that "vintage sound" but have an axe fx or helix rig or modern full feature channel switcher they actually use.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

vadsy said:


> I wonder if the price of new boutique comes down or used goes up?


I can only imagine 'down'. Supply / demand is just going the wrong way, even with a few builders starting to opt out.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Over the past 20 years I've been through many high end boutique amps. Probably more than 50 amps from builders such as Dr Z, Victoria, Tone King and Carr to name a few. I now own a couple of Allen amps and although it isn't what I consider high end like Tone King and Carr, at least for what they cost, they are my favorite amps. They do exactly what I want, didn't cost me a lot and basically I'm all done spending money on amps. I didn't dislike all those other boutique amps I bought. I was just having fun trying everything I could get my hands on.
I'm even selling one of my Allen amps not because I don't like but because I've chosen one of them to keep and it will do what I need for home playing and gigging 1 to 2 times a month. Maybe a lot of us old guys are getting to the same point in our lives and this is maybe going to cause the boutique amp bubble to burst at some point.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> Over the past 20 years I've been through many high end boutique amps. Probably more than 50 amps from builders such as Dr Z, Victoria, Tone King and Carr to name a few. I now own a couple of Allen amps and although it isn't what I consider high end like Tone King and Carr, at least for what they cost, they are my favorite amps. They do exactly what I want, didn't cost me a lot and basically I'm all done spending money on amps. I didn't dislike all those other boutique amps I bought. I was just having fun trying everything I could get my hands on.
> I'm even selling one of my Allen amps not because I don't like but because I've chosen one of them to keep and it will do what I need for home playing and gigging 1 to 2 times a month. Maybe a lot of us old guys are getting to the same point in our lives and this is maybe going to cause the boutique amp bubble to burst at some point.


Reading the guy from CarolAnn, it sounds like the bubble has in fact started to burst. Time will tell. 

Of those builders you listed, I would speculate that Dr Z and Victoria may be large enough to last a while, maybe indefinitely. At least they have the support of larger retailers, like L&M. Again, time will tell.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Dr Z had announced that there will be no more colour choices on tolex, just black now.
That showed me that there's some sort of cost cutting/streamlining going on there.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

I've dealt with a few boutique guitar and amp guys over the years and most have mentioned that its hard to make decent money in the business.


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## Lef T (Aug 9, 2018)

I think the amp market is so widely spread,that no one is getting rich.
I do see that a lot of players seem to want cheaper and lighter.
I am at the point in my life where lighter is on the top of my priority list for sure.
Quilter is a very small company that is making some cool product,but from all reports they are not even in the profit zone yet.
Milkman Amps came out with the little "Amp" and he sold out his first run.
Tell me the lightbulb didn't go off in his head when his initial run immediately got grabbed up.
I think the lightweight,quality,multiple use,hybrid amps such as the Amp by Milkman will become more and more popular.
I was just checking out this clip.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Something something saturation.


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## DaddyDog (Apr 21, 2017)

Lef T said:


> Milkman Amps came out with the little "Amp" and he sold out his first run.
> Tell me the lightbulb didn't go off in his head when his initial run immediately got grabbed up.
> I think the lightweight,quality,multiple use,hybrid amps such as the Amp by Milkman will become more and more popular.
> I was just checking out this clip.


And it's pretty awesome 
I seem to be a sucker for bleeding edge. I'm not a big NAD poster but if anyone has questions, let me know. I'm not 100% sure I'll gig without a real tube amp. But I love having The Amp as a backup, and it's right there on my pedalboard. We're still in the honeymoon stage.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

a good tube amp is expensive enough as it is. with guitar based music on the decline, as well as live music, boutique amps are becoming irrelevant. sure, there are a few guys here and there still buying them, but for the most part, they just aren't needed anymore. you can buy a dam good amp off the shelf at almost any store these days. i still don't understand why the lunchbox amp fad faded so fast. a small low-watt head and decent cab is all most players really need anymore. there are alot more guys rockin madison square bedroom than there are playing jumpin jack flash at the local watering hole these days. next on the list to decline will be 100w heads and 4x12s. watch and see


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## Robboman (Oct 14, 2006)

Many obvious things hurting the amp business (too many builders, digital modelers / profilers, decline of guitar-playing popularity in general).

Aside all that, I never did understand how the industry keeps churning out so many amps year after year anyway. Because it's not like the OLD ones are getting thrown in the landfill like old appliances, TV sets or PCs. Amps get re-capped, re-tubed, played. loved and eventually put on Kijiji or Reverb. Players still WANT the OLD ones! As much or moreso than new boutique, most of which are essentially clones of the old circuits anyway. 

Still, I'm sad to read that from Alan of Carol-ann


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Boutique wasnt needed in the first place. It's a luxury item.

Like how Fender is still going, but the amount of fly by night luthiers offering too good to be true short runs then leaving with the $ continues to grow.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

I haven't had as many amps as some people here but I have owned a few. For home use I don't need anything fancy. I mostly use headphones. For live use, bar jams and private jams nothing beats the response of a tube amp for me. That said, I only have two amps I use live. One is a Fender Pro Junior and the other is a converted military PA amp. Between them I have about $1,000 tied up. They are easy to pack around and get the tone I want. I have had a couple of higher end boutique amps but when I realized how much money I had tied up in them for a minute difference in tone when heard in a mix live I moved them on. If you are recording or playing higher end gigs then maybe a high end amp is worth it. For most of us an off the shelf amp is good enough.


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## Lef T (Aug 9, 2018)

DaddyDog said:


> And it's pretty awesome
> I seem to be a sucker for bleeding edge. I'm not a big NAD poster but if anyone has questions, let me know


This is so totally unacceptable.
A review is in order.
How does it sound?
Is it putting out a real life 50 watts?
I really think you should post a NAD on this little puppy.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Good riddance to all copycats! 

It would be a shame, however, to lose guys who have their own ideas as well as an understanding of the classic amps.

Tube Guitar Amp Kits, Tube Amp Books, Amps


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I've had lots of boutique stuff dropped off at my house to try out and I love the sound of pretty much everything that comes through the door, I just don't love the price tag. I often dig the simplicity of some of the boutique stuff but I doubt those prices will come down enough for me to actually justify buying one to gig.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Quite the whine-fest from that builder. Every industry is full of failed brands a million times over. There will be a market for boutique amps, but maybe not for that guy’s amps.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

I considered starting a career in the amp building buisiness a few years back. I decided that the market was already at saturation for boutique builders.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

I think there will always be a solid market for well built, well priced 15ish watt amps, heads and combos.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

"Things are getting scarce!" Is a great sales tactic


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## 14786 (Feb 3, 2016)

I've almost had every boutique "M" styled amp. With the amount of live music gigs my bands are getting, I find it really hard to justify a $5000 Friedman, or blah, blah, blah, when a $900 DSL does the job just as well. Does it sound as good? Maybe, maybe not. I will say though, that if you can't get a great classic rock, hard rock tone from a Marshall DSL/JVM, it's NOT the amp lol.


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

Having been around on forums for awhile and on TGP since 2004... I think the last 10-15 years have been more of a bubble and we’re starting to return to normal.

Before the internet, most of these boutique guys and mod-specialists had limited market access. Most people used whatever they could find locally, probably solid state. A lot of the mods and other tweaks were for those in the know, or those with the connections to reach those who were in the know.

The internet gave us a wealth of information. People suddenly knew what their heroes actually used. Brands I’d never even heard of before became common names, and I could order them through the internet. Everyone with a credit card started chasing whatever the new flavour of the month was, and every month there was a new flavour. Soon, the snake-oil salesmen moved in and started shilling there wares.

Concurrently, the big brands started to catch onto the trends and adapted their product lines. True-bypass, point-to-point, hand-wired, vintage reissue.

Next thing you know, some guy you’ve never even heard of before is the new guru of the month. Apparently, he’s secretly acquired all this esoteric knowledge and knows more than the people who’ve been doing this for decades. People line up to fork over their money. The first couple of people receive their product and rant and rave about how good it is. More people line up to fork over their money.... then the guy stops answering emails, stops delivering product, people get upset. They paid in advance.

I think we’re at the point now where for some people boutique has lost its thrill. People realized that a Tubescreamer in a fancy box is still a Tubescreamer. Boutique isn’t special anymore because everyone has one.

We’ve gone from people arguing over the difference in sound between two different shades of paint to people that don’t believe that anything they can’t easily verify themselves affects the sound.

The trend has shifted from paying big $$$ for the best sounding amp in the world to paying big $$$ for anything that weighs less than 30 lbs.

The other trend is that forum populations are getting older and there’s no young blood coming in to replace them. They’ve moved on to other forms of social media, which in my limited experience isn’t passing on the same level of detail and is a different form of hype machine.

IMO/YMMV


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

"Boutique isn’t special anymore because everyone has one"


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Although I do enjoy the sound and response of a tube amp, having gone back and forth between modelers and tube amps several times over the years, I’ve come to the conclusion that the audience doesn’t give a rats ass which I use.

As I seem to be happy either way and the benefits of modelers are so abundant, seeing a decline in the Booteek amp market is not surprising to me.

I’d expect that trend to continue and increase with millenials.


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## Guest (Oct 16, 2018)

I really notice the difference in tonal quality when I switch between my Fender Mustang II (solid state, $140 used) and my Bruno Underground 30 (hand wired tube amp $3-4K).


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Player99 said:


> I really notice the difference in tonal quality when I switch between my Fender Mustang II (solid state, $140 used) and my Bruno Underground 30 (hand wired tube amp $3-4K).


I should hope you noticed something, that’s big money


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

I just hope we never run out of 70s Fender amps. They make me happy.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Don't get me wrong. I do enjoy a nice tube amp, new, old whatever. I even built a few myself from kits a couple of years back.

It just got to the point where (for me) the pros and cons just don't justify physical amps anymore.

Of course, if you buy a $150 amp modeler, you should compare that to a $150 amp.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

We all shoulda bought this when we had the chance...


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Milkman said:


> Although I do enjoy the sound and response of a tube amp, having gone back and forth between modelers and tube amps several times over the years, I’ve come to the conclusion that the audience doesn’t give a rats ass which I use.
> 
> As I seem to be happy either way and the benefits of modelers are so abundant, seeing a decline in the Booteek amp market is not surprising to me.
> 
> I’d expect that trend to continue and increase with millenials.


I haven't tried the better modelers out there, but I did try a couple of my old SS amps at practice recently. Although the Bandit/Special series is considered pretty good, I could not gel with my old Special. I think the way I boost inputs with my pedals made that amp just sound like ass. Same with the Fender Princeton 65 or whatever it was - I just gifted that amp to my ex because I have too many amps I like to play out that aren't much heavier (the only reason I was trying the SS amps).

I agree though - the audience doesn't give a crap. I do and that makes it worth the extra effort for me. Hell, I'm just glad I'm not our keys player or drummer, those guys have to carry a lot of stuff compared to any of my rigs. That just means us three string players have a lot more PA set up and tear down, though.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

High/Deaf said:


> I haven't tried the better modelers out there, but I did try a couple of my old SS amps at practice recently. Although the Bandit/Special series is considered pretty good, I could not gel with my old Special. I think the way I boost inputs with my pedals made that amp just sound like ass. Same with the Fender Princeton 65 or whatever it was - I just gifted that amp to my ex because I have too many amps I like to play out that aren't much heavier (the only reason I was trying the SS amps).
> 
> I agree though - the audience doesn't give a crap. I do and that makes it worth the extra effort for me. Hell, I'm just glad I'm not our keys player or drummer, those guys have to carry a lot of stuff compared to any of my rigs. That just means us three string players have a lot more PA set up and tear down, though.


There's a big difference between a modeler and a SS amp. The audience doesn't know or care whether it's a tube amp or a modeler, and I'm of the opinion that any double blind test of amps vs modelers with guitarists testing them would yield inconclusive results.

In other words, I think much of the magic is in our minds.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Milkman said:


> There's a big difference between a modeler and a SS amp. The audience doesn't know or care whether it's a tube amp or a modeler, and I'm of the opinion that any double blind test of amps vs modelers with guitarists testing them would yield inconclusive results.
> 
> In other words, I think much of the magic is in our minds.


Blind tests have yielded inconclusive results. 

Look at Lee's face around the 22:30 mark in this video and you'll see a diehard tube guy's world change 

And you can see Chappers surprise when he says "that's the Kemper?"


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

If I still had to play in a cover band in a bar, I agree. The audience can't tell. Use emulation.

I have the TC Helicon VoiceLive 3. I bought it because it has all the bells and whistles in one package.

It makes a solo set-up easy. Guitar, mic, (tracks).

It's a fun toy for farting around with echoes, harmonies, looping.

Good tuner and acceptable reverb unit.

Otherwise, I can't find a single electric guitar sound that I like. Cheap conversion to digital?

And computer connectivity is wasted on me. All perceivable latency, no matter how tiny, is torture to me. No, I don't want to learn how to do right.

A well-made amp will never go out of style. Yes, lots of good amps are being mass produced. But individually produced amps are like custom cars to me: they must have quality and features unavailable elsewhere. I am sure that 
I am not the only guy still willing to pay for it, if I want it. 

As far as paying big bucks for a hand-built "monkey-see-monkey-do" amp -- yeah, let's hope those days are over.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

KapnKrunch said:


> If I still had to play in a cover band in a bar, I agree. The audience can't tell. Use emulation.


Most of the audience probably can't tell or care whether I'm playing an LP, Tele or strat. But I prefer to play a tele so I'll play it for me. Same with tube versus digital. Of course they can't tell but I'll use what I think is best for me. I don't know of any gigging musician that polls audience to see what they prefer. Our gear is just tools and as a musician we make decisions on what is best for us, individually. Sorry for the rant but just annoys me when ever I see someone type "well the audience can't tell", like that has fucken thing to do with it.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

Audience doesnt care, can't tell the difference in a blind test and hand made voodoo is a farce.... all points I agree with. However, I will always stick to simple handwired tube amps for 2 reasons, they're easy to use and easy to repair! Have fun with you're kemper scrolling through those menus, spending hours programming shit and playing with settings ain't for me.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

Chitmo said:


> Audience doesnt care, can't tell the difference in a blind test and hand made voodoo is a farce.... all points I agree with. However, I will always stick to simple handwired tube amps for 2 reasons, they're easy to use and easy to repair! Have fun with you're kemper scrolling through those menus, spending hours programming shit and playing with settings ain't for me.


I agree with the "spending hours" thing. It doesn't take THAT long to dial in sounds that I can use to have fun. Once I had a few good setups in my modellers, I stopped tweaking and played them. It's nice to twist a knob or step on a switch and have a different rig. I've missed that ease of use since I sold my Amplifire, which is why I look forward to grabbing a Helix.


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

jdto said:


> I agree with the "spending hours" thing. It doesn't take THAT long to dial in sounds that I can use to have fun. Once I had a few good setups in my modellers, I stopped tweaking and played them. It's nice to twist a knob or step on a switch and have a different rig. I've missed that ease of use since I sold my Amplifire, which is why I look forward to grabbing a Helix.


Different strokes for different folks mang, I'm not against modeling amps. I had a helix for all of a week and back it went to L&M. Just not my thang.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Chitmo said:


> Audience doesnt care, can't tell the difference in a blind test and hand made voodoo is a farce.... all points I agree with. However, I will always stick to simple handwired tube amps for 2 reasons, they're easy to use and easy to repair! Have fun with you're kemper scrolling through those menus, spending hours programming shit and playing with settings ain't for me.


Exactly one of my main reasons. I'm in IT and I do this all day long. I've got quite an intricate home network and I'm fiddling with that all the time. When it comes to my music the last thing I want to do is fiddle with it constantly.
When I sit down to play guitar I just want to turn it on and play away.
Back in the 80's I had all the toys, Roland GP16, Roland D50 for guitar synth, a couple amps on stage, etc. I toured and I needed versatility. Now I'm happy gigging out with a tele, a simple black face style amp a couple pedals on the floor. Simplicity is fun


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## Percy (Feb 18, 2013)

I wanted one of these....Fender '64 Custom Deluxe Reverb 3500.00 plus tax Canadian ...Boutique?At that price imho yes....

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...eluxe-reverb-20-watt-1x12-inch-tube-combo-amp

Because i have to pay rent and eat i bought one of these....Fender Super Champ x2

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/de...per-champ-x2-15-watt-1x10-inch-tube-combo-amp


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I just read a post in the "buy and Sell" where someone is selling a Kingsley amp and he mentions there is a 4 year waiting period for a build. I guess Simons not feeling the pinch.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> Most of the audience probably can't tell or care whether I'm playing an LP, Tele or strat. But I prefer to play a tele so I'll play it for me. Same with tube versus digital. Of course they can't tell but I'll use what I think is best for me. I don't know of any gigging musician that polls audience to see what they prefer. Our gear is just tools and as a musician we make decisions on what is best for us, individually. Sorry for the rant but just annoys me when ever I see someone type "well the audience can't tell", like that has fucken thing to do with it.


"Use emulation." 

This was a suggestion, not an command. 

Suit yourself. (Also a suggestion.)


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

KapnKrunch said:


> "Use emulation."
> 
> This was a suggestion, not an command.
> 
> Suit yourself. (Also a suggestion.)


Thats what you got from my post? MJF$#


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

guitarman2 said:


> Thats what you got from my post? MJF$#


Yeah. Sorry.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Most of the audience probably can't tell or care whether I'm playing an LP, Tele or strat. But I prefer to play a tele so I'll play it for me. Same with tube versus digital. Of course they can't tell but I'll use what I think is best for me.


This all day long. I choose gear that I like the sound of, that pleases my ear and inspires me to play my best. That could be a piece of digital gear, a tube amp, a pedal or whatever gets me where I want to be in the particular playing situation I'm in.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Exactly one of my main reasons. I'm in IT and I do this all day long. I've got quite an intricate home network and I'm fiddling with that all the time. When it comes to my music the last thing I want to do is fiddle with it constantly.
> When I sit down to play guitar I just want to turn it on and play away.
> Back in the 80's I had all the toys, Roland GP16, Roland D50 for guitar synth, a couple amps on stage, etc. I toured and I needed versatility. Now I'm happy gigging out with a tele, a simple black face style amp a couple pedals on the floor. Simplicity is fun


Why do you think you have to fiddle with a modeler? Once it's dialed in, it's plug and play, just like an amp.

I play every night and I don't spend much time tweaking and turning knobs at all.

If simplicity is the goal, you may be looking at modelers in the wrong light. Nothing could be simpler once you have your basic sounds set up.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Milkman said:


> Why do you think you have to fiddle with a modeler? Once it's dialed in, it's plug and play, just like an amp.
> 
> I play every night and I don't spend much time tweaking and turning knobs at all.
> 
> If simplicity is the goal, you may be looking at modelers in the wrong light. Nothing could be simpler once you have your basic sounds set up.


I'm thinking back to the days of my setup with midi cables, and racks of processors. Every channel had eq that had to be adjusted for almost every room. It was not a simple set up, nor that easy to maintain. As for modelers I've used a couple, Boss GT100 being one. I've never been happy with them. I find with modelers you're always fighting to get as close as possible to the sound you want. When you buy an analog piece of hardware it is the sound you want, no muss, no fuss.
As well if I have to many options I'm OCD with the fiddling of settings. One of the greatest amps I've ever used was a Dr Z Carmen Ghia. It had a volume knob and a tone knob. That was it.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

gtrguy said:


> This all day long. I choose gear that I like the sound of, that pleases my ear and inspires me to play my best. That could be a piece of digital gear, a tube amp, a pedal or whatever gets me where I want to be in the particular playing situation I'm in.


Pretty sure every experienced guitar player feels this way at least 75%, and then they all talk in circles about it. Like right now haha.

We were talking about boutique market seemingly peaking, then we got distracted.

I still want one of my buddy's aluminum necks...


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

guitarman2 said:


> I just read a post in the "buy and Sell" where someone is selling a Kingsley amp and he mentions there is a 4 year waiting period for a build. I guess Simons not feeling the pinch.


*just my opinion*, but waiting 4 years for an amp is flat out stupid. if you can get by 4 yrs w/o it, you don't need it. there's certainly no value to be found in paying ridiculous prices for something you can do without unless you are a collector.



Budda said:


> Pretty sure every experienced guitar player feels this way at least 75%, and then they all talk in circles about it. Like right now haha.
> 
> We were talking about boutique market seemingly peaking, then we got distracted.
> 
> I still want one of my buddy's aluminum necks...


i've had 2 alum necks so far. they're nice, but too heavy for my taste. unless you can get one with the interesting roller nut, i don't see any advantage


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I want it to support him, drive traffic and have a unique somethin.

It's on the (small) post tour gear list.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

I like amps


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

RBlakeney said:


> I like amps


Same.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

RBlakeney said:


> I like amps





Budda said:


> Same.


Me three.

Also I LOVE lamp.

But I don’t like knobs.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Robboman said:


> Aside all that, I never did understand how the industry keeps churning out so many amps year after year anyway. Because it's not like the OLD ones are getting thrown in the landfill like old appliances, TV sets or PCs. Amps get re-capped, re-tubed, played. loved and eventually put on Kijiji or Reverb. Players still WANT the OLD ones! As much or moreso than new boutique, most of which are essentially clones of the old circuits anyway.


This.

I have 9 amps in my basement right now & 7 of them are 50+ years old. Besides tone, which is a subjective can o’ worms, there are 2 main reasons:

1) The clones I’ve owned were surprisingly close in price point vs. vintage (compare a new Clark or Victoria to a retweeded Fender) but didn’t hold their value as well. 

2) Any reliability issues I’ve ever had have always been with newer amps (a Fender CVR, Marshall 1974 HW & Mesa LSS come to mind). IMO FEIC did it right the first time.

The only amp in my collection that might be considered boutique is a Suhr Badger 30 head I found here (thanks @pickslide). Incredible power scaling, better tone at more manageable volume levels than the myriad of 1-6 watters I owned in my condo days.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Really? There's not a sustainable market in the $5000 amp niche? Shocking!


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Milkman said:


> There's a big difference between a modeler and a SS amp. The audience doesn't know or care whether it's a tube amp or a modeler, and I'm of the opinion that any double blind test of amps vs modelers with guitarists testing them would yield inconclusive results.
> 
> In other words, I think much of the magic is in our minds.


That's why I specified some of the better modelers vs an SS amp. They are way different. 

By good modelers, I mean Kemper, Axe FX and Helix. I've played cheaper modelers like the old L6 kidney bean or Boss GT something or Digitech or whatever. They weren't in the same league at all. 

I wouldn't mind trying one of the better ones, but the price of admission is more than all but one of my amps. And being as I'm not sure about it, it's just not worth it. I get what I need, primarily out of either my LSS, TA15 or DRRI. It's that squishy edge-of-breakup I'm still not sure modeling has nailed. Maybe, maybe not - but since I'm getting what I want, I'm not looking for replacements.

Don't get me started on soft/firmware upgrades that make it incrementally better and better (and in doing so, admitting they weren't quite 'there' yet). At what revision are they finally 'there'? 


But I digress, because this was really about boutique builders hitting a demand limit (IMO). Simon Jarrett was one of the first people I thought about when I read that. I know his waiting list for pedals is long, and for amps is crazy long. Perhaps he's doing the right thing, limiting availability to keep demand high. Time will tell.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

I was on a 1 year list for a custom pedal from Simon. After 10 months I took my self off the list because my needs have changed and I'm happy with what I have. The most I've ever waited for anything was 6 months for a custom guitar build. I'd never wait 4 years for an amp build. But then amps aren't as important to me as guitars. pedals even less so now.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

mrmatt1972 said:


> Really? There's not a sustainable market in the $5000 amp niche? Shocking!


the reason i liked your post was because your avatar is awesome sauce


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Budda said:


> Something something saturation.


Is that your bands new single?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

guitars should be played through tube amps, modellers are ok but headphones are not acceptable


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

I'm currently playing this $250 Chinese eBay amp that I made a crappy head cab for from a $10 piece of pine. Sounds good.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

To add on the digital modeling debate:

I have a Kemper and also an AXE FX and FX8 and I very rarely tweak. With the many presets available and also the option to purchase/download profiles is efficient and easy to get great tones.

When I set up my Kemper, it came with purchased Dumble presets and my clean, modulated clean, clean/edge of breakup, Overdrive and lead tones we’re all there. I simply allocated each preset to a specific footswitch and was done. There are so many other users “tweaking” at a high level, that I do not need to do so but have the option if I wish to do so.


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

Alex said:


> With the many presets available and also the option to purchase/download profiles is efficient and easy to get great tones.


AxeFX - capable of a million different sounds, yet everyone who uses sounds the same.



(Note - the above is a joke from the djent scene, but it’s one of the dangers of downloading/sharing presets. Superior Drummer has the same problem because everyone’s using the same sample packs)


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Alex said:


> To add on the digital modeling debate:
> 
> I have a Kemper and also an AXE FX and FX8 and I very rarely tweak. With the many presets available and also the option to purchase/download profiles is efficient and easy to get great tones.
> 
> When I set up my Kemper, it came with purchased Dumble presets and my clean, modulated clean, clean/edge of breakup, Overdrive and lead tones we’re all there. I simply allocated each preset to a specific footswitch and was done. There are so many other users “tweaking” at a high level, that I do not need to do so but have the option if I wish to do so.


See, that's what I'm afraid of - that they are 'there'. If I try one, well, you know how that can go. 

Do you find the edge-of-breakup responds well to volume control changes of the guitar? The cheaper ones struggled with that, plus the fact that they decay of the notes seem to have undesirable artifacts. But I know there's lots of difference between the cheaper ones and the big 3. 

I also wonder, if they really are 'there', how will they sell upgrades to firmware and software and, eventually, new hardware to support the upgraded fw/sw. I mean, if it sounds good now, it will sound good forever. Do people really need better than good? Maybe the upgrades will be oriented towards new features or easier MMI? 


And I suspect that's a problem with the boutique builders. If you build a good Marshall JTM or Fender 5E3, there is no upgrade beyond that. You can only approach how good one of the originals sounded. There isn't any way in exceeding that tone, only build quality and features. Once people have your product, there is nothing left to sell them. And there doesn't seem to be a huge influx of buyers - and the existing ones have been buying for a couple decades now.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

High/Deaf said:


> See, that's what I'm afraid of - that they are 'there'. If I try one, well, you know how that can go.
> 
> Do you find the edge-of-breakup responds well to volume control changes of the guitar? The cheaper ones struggled with that, plus the fact that they decay of the notes seem to have undesirable artifacts. But I know there's lots of difference between the cheaper ones and the big 3.
> 
> ...


I bought the Kemper on a whim - I wanted to try it and then move it. I was floored on how well it works directly into a cab. I had tried going full digital but there was always something missing and my compromise rig ended up being my RedPlate with a Fractal FX8. 2 channel amp that sounds great and combined with the FX8, a lot of versatility - the FX8 via the Relays triggers the channel switching and effects galore at my disposal.

The Kemper with the Remote is super compact and light and sounds fantastic - I’m still shocked at what that toaster can do. I did try the Positive Grid prior to the Kemper and no comparison.

I highly recommend the FX8 as a start - state of the art effects, switcher system and looper. At $US900 new, a lot of bang for the buck. I’m debating getting another one or the new Line 6 FX equivalent.


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2018)

I spent a ton of time with a L6 floorboard unit. I was always just not quite there. Not enough bass, now there's digital fizz etc. One friend said the all in wonder board players have the smallest big sound.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Alex said:


> I bought the Kemper on a whim - I wanted to try it and then move it. I was floored on how well it works directly into a cab. I had tried going full digital but there was always something missing and my compromise rig ended up being my RedPlate with a Fractal FX8. 2 channel amp that sounds great and combined with the FX8, a lot of versatility - the FX8 via the Relays triggers the channel switching and effects galore at my disposal.
> 
> The Kemper with the Remote is super compact and light and sounds fantastic - I’m still shocked at what that toaster can do. I did try the Positive Grid prior to the Kemper and no comparison.
> 
> I highly recommend the FX8 as a start - state of the art effects, switcher system and looper. At $US900 new, a lot of bang for the buck. I’m debating getting another one or the new Line 6 FX equivalent.


I keep hearing so much good about the Kemper. I'm probably lucky no one out here stocks them (at least, that I'm aware of). Maybe that could be a retirement present for myself down the road - when I have the time to deep dive into it. From what I've read, it is the most amp-like, and as a bonus, probably the easiest MMI as well (perhaps at the cost of ultimate tweek-ability, which I'm OK with).


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

Player99 said:


> I spent a ton of time with a L6 floorboard unit. I was always just not quite there. Not enough bass, now there's digital fizz etc. One friend said the all in wonder board players have the smallest big sound.


I had the same issues when I used the AXE FX with a FRFR and the Positive Grid with a cab - this inherent midrange that sounds thin and doesn’t have the warmth of a tube amp. I remember an AXE FX ninja user telling me to just dial out the midrange but it’s there and not going away.

With the Kemper, the first plug in was a “wow”. I played around with the unit for about an hour and the overdriven tones were good until I noticed the cab emulation light was on - one press of the button to turn it off and the heavens opened...


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Alex said:


> I had the same issues when I used the AXE FX with a FRFR and the Positive Grid with a cab - this inherent midrange that sounds thin and doesn’t have the warmth of a tube amp. I remember an AXE FX ninja user telling me to just dial out the midrange but it’s there and not going away.
> 
> With the Kemper, the first plug in was a “wow”. I played around with the unit for about an hour and the overdriven tones were good until I noticed the cab emulation light was on - one press of the button to turn it off and the heavens opened...


Wouldn't you know it - I put it out in the ether and there it appears.

I may have a line on a used Kemper powered toaster with floorboard and preloaded sims for a decent price. If it becomes available, I may take the leep. That will make retirement even harder to wait for. 

Funny how these things work.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I had a long chat with Christoph Kemper (very nice approachable guy) at Summer NAMM, and one of the things he was proud of, and that we agreed on, was striking the right balance between flexibility and usability. One can provide all the options one wants, but if it is hard to get to the sounds you want, that's not a great product. There were many feasible options he left _out_ of the Profiler, simply because they would have complicated access to sounds unnecessarily. The choices available within the various menus and submenus were intended to let you get to what you want quickly.

But on the larger topic of the thread....

One of the things that has occurred in many areas of guitar-oriented music gear over the past 25 years is the increased availability of materials, resources, and services. In 1993, I had to buy a pedal in a pawnshop to get a DPDT switch to use. They were $20 in 1993 dollars, when you could find them. A schematic was something you might have access to IF you were an authorized repair site, or knew someone who was. Few books available, few magazines, and no web-based forums for exchanging information. Fast forward and now 3PDT switches are under [email protected], readily available from a great many sources in any quantity you like. Same goes for powder-coated Hammond boxes. Free software allows you to draft a PCB layout, ship it off to a production facility and get back professional double-sided tinned, drilled, and legended PCBs for peanuts. Parts are all readily available for peanuts, such that any kid can start a "pedal business" on the desk in their college dorm room.

When I started modding my guitars in the early '70s, you could order after-market pickups from DiMarzio or a few other companies. Nowadays, there are a great many supply-houses that will sell you flatwork for whatever you want, polepieces of whatever magnet material and length/diameter you want, bar magnets, bobbins, baseplates, covers, wire, slugs, keeper bars, etc., and even winders. And if that doesn't float your boat, people can buy or easily access laser cutters to make their own flatwork, and 3-D print their own bobbins and covers.

Amps require more space to produce, store, and ship, and the parts inventory is costly. So there aren't nearly as many amp-makers as pedal-makers. But there are a lot more than there would have been 25 years ago. And the more-resources = more-makers equation applies there, too. The number of sources where one can get tubes, chassis, transformers, caps, speakers, and cab-supplies has mushroomed, not to mention the huge increase in available information about classic designs and basic amp-design principles, and relevant accessible communities.

And I haven't even mentioned what Youtube demos have been able to provide in the way of essentially cost-free advertising for amps, pedals, pickups, guitars, accessories, or what off-shore manufacturing in Asia has done to feasible price-points for things NOT made there.

The overarching question is whether the growth in makers and making that all of this access has potentiated has a matching market to sustain it. I won't go into the issue of whether "rock guitar is dead", or whether SS can sub for tube. But even if interest in guitar-gear holds steady and tubes maintain their position, relative to transistors, there is only so much growth potential for those who wish to cater to the market that exists. And, much the way we see pedal-makers that come and go after a few products get released and the maker turns to a day-job to meet their living costs, I think we can expect to see some amp-makers decide they'd prefer a less anxiety-provoking lifestyle. Besides, major manufacturers with big money behind them keep their eyes open and incorporate features that were once _only_ found in boutique products into their own products. So unless one desires, and can afford, something that is entirely custom-tailored to one's own specific needs, more and more players will be able to find what they want and need in a brand-name product, rather than require a specialized maker to do it for them.

I guess the question that raises for hobbyists is whether any reduction in the number of viable commercial clients will have an impact on the availability of materials and services for the rest of us. Will we be able to obtain replacement output transformers as easily 5 years from now as we can today? Will there be as many distributors willing to spring the bucks for that inventory?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

mhammer said:


> One of the things that has occurred in many areas of guitar-oriented music gear over the past 25 years is the increased availability of materials, resources, and services. In 1993, I had to buy a pedal in a pawnshop to get a DPDT switch to use. They were $20 in 1993 dollars, when you could find them. A schematic was something you might have access to IF you were an authorized repair site, or knew someone who was. Few books available, few magazines, and no web-based forums for exchanging information. Fast forward and now 3PDT switches are under [email protected], readily available from a great many sources in any quantity you like. Same goes for powder-coated Hammond boxes. Free software allows you to draft a PCB layout, ship it off to a production facility and get back professional double-sided tinned, drilled, and legended PCBs for peanuts. Parts are all readily available for peanuts, such that any kid can start a "pedal business" on the desk in their college dorm room.
> 
> When I started modding my guitars in the early '70s, you could order after-market pickups from DiMarzio or a few other companies. Nowadays, there are a great many supply-houses that will sell you flatwork for whatever you want, polepieces of whatever magnet material and length/diameter you want, bar magnets, bobbins, baseplates, covers, wire, slugs, keeper bars, etc., and even winders. And if that doesn't float your boat, people can buy or easily access laser cutters to make their own flatwork, and 3-D print their own bobbins and covers.
> 
> Amps require more space to produce, store, and ship, and the parts inventory is costly. So there aren't nearly as many amp-makers as pedal-makers. But there are a lot more than there would have been 25 years ago. And the more-resources = more-makers equation applies there, too. The number of sources where one can get tubes, chassis, transformers, caps, speakers, and cab-supplies has mushroomed, not to mention the huge increase in available information about classic designs and basic amp-design principles, and relevant accessible communities.


This + the idea that the major manufacturers lost their way in the 90s spawned the business, to a large extent. Most builders, it seems, are just building a better, pre-existing mousetrap (Marshall, Fender or Vox). When those guys figured out where some of their profits were going, they also got back into the business of hand-wired 'copies' of their old products, increasing even more the supply.

The problem is now obviously a combination of lots of supply coupled with shrinking demand. That's not good math.




> The overarching question is whether the growth in makers and making that all of this access has potentiated has a matching market to sustain it. I won't go into the issue of whether "rock guitar is dead", or whether SS can sub for tube. But even if interest in guitar-gear holds steady and tubes maintain their position, relative to transistors, there is only so much growth potential for those who wish to cater to the market that exists. And, much the way we see pedal-makers that come and go after a few products get released and the maker turns to a day-job to meet their living costs, I think we can expect to see some amp-makers decide they'd prefer a less anxiety-provoking lifestyle. Besides, major manufacturers with big money behind them keep their eyes open and incorporate features that were once _only_ found in boutique products into their own products. So unless one desires, and can afford, something that is entirely custom-tailored to one's own specific needs, more and more players will be able to find what they want and need in a brand-name product, rather than require a specialized maker to do it for them.


That's it in a nutshell. I can see the well-established major brands staying (the traditional as well as the handful of large boutiquers) but I think many of the smaller builders will have to go 'part time', like Carol-Ann. A hobby business compared to something you can make a decent living at. Demand is just going to shrink in the coming decades, from what I can see.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Alex said:


> With the Kemper, the first plug in was a “wow”. I played around with the unit for about an hour and the overdriven tones were good until I noticed the cab emulation light was on - one press of the button to turn it off and the heavens opened...


I am so weak! 










You're right. First plugging it in was eye-popping. Then starting to tweak, it just got better. Of course, this is just in the living room, the real test will be first band practice with it, but I don't know when I'll be ready for that. 

Gonna have to do some deep-diving, but I'm looking forward to it. See you guys in a month or so, eh?


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## Lef T (Aug 9, 2018)

High/Deaf said:


> I am so weak!


Yeah....you are !
Holy smokes.
The LSS is going on the backburner?
Looking forward to your reports.
Does it have a power amp built in ?
I know so little of the Kemper,but definitely have an open mind.
This should prove interesting.
I think a new thread is in order for this puppy.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

High/Deaf said:


> I am so weak!
> 
> View attachment 229704
> 
> ...


Congrats!

From your pic, it looks like the cab emulator is on - if you are plugging directly into a speaker cabinet, push the button to turn it off and let me know the results.

Cheers


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Alex said:


> To add on the digital modeling debate:
> 
> I have a Kemper and also an AXE FX and FX8 and I very rarely tweak. With the many presets available and also the option to purchase/download profiles is efficient and easy to get great tones.
> 
> When I set up my Kemper, it came with purchased Dumble presets and my clean, modulated clean, clean/edge of breakup, Overdrive and lead tones we’re all there. I simply allocated each preset to a specific footswitch and was done. There are so many other users “tweaking” at a high level, that I do not need to do so but have the option if I wish to do so.


Just less than a week in and I'm hitting data overload, but having a lot of fun with this thing.

To me, the best part so far is the huge customer support group providing all sorts of tweakable profiles to work with. What did Gates say - 12,500 profiles should be enough for anyone! I may never have to profile an amp myself, and I'm OK with that. 

I was careful to save the previous profiles to my laptop before deleting them from the box, most were useless to me (multiple copies of the same amp with tiny little changes, and way too much verb on everything). I'm down to less than 100 profiles in the box (many, many more on the laptop) and have 3 Performance presets I'm happy with so far. I could probably take it to a band practice already - much sooner than I thought I would be able to. 

Morphing is so cool - that will be a lot of fun playing live! And the effects are more than good enough for me (the amp modeling speaks for itself). What a way to spend those dark, wet fall days.


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## Alex (Feb 11, 2006)

High/Deaf said:


> Just less than a week in and I'm hitting data overload, but having a lot of fun with this thing.
> 
> To me, the best part so far is the huge customer support group providing all sorts of tweakable profiles to work with. What did Gates say - 12,500 profiles should be enough for anyone! I may never have to profile an amp myself, and I'm OK with that.
> 
> ...


On YouTube, of of the guys from Anderton’s goes through his top 5 profiles and most of them come from Michael Britt. The Britt Dumble profiles that are in my unit are stellar.

Glad you are enjoying the unit. Kemper may have split the atom!


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## Ronbeast (Nov 11, 2008)

I’ve never owned a boutique amp before, though I’ve played a few over the years. Of course I loved the tones from all of them, but I’m not a pro or even someone who gigs regularly more than a handful of times a year.

These days I have two setups when I play guitar, and I’m selling the rest because I’ve reached the point where I’ve accepted that I won’t be playing any stadiums anytime soon. The two I’m keeping are a Vox ac10c1 that was very reasonably priced, and my Peavey Audition Chorus is fun for cleans and bedroom practice.

Between my two amps, I have $700 tied up; the Vox was $650, the Peavey was $50. I really like the grit and dirt of the Vox, and the true stereo chorusing from the Peavey is great for clean tones.

That’s all I need from my amps to be happy.


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## gitapik (Aug 5, 2016)

I have a modded Blues Jr which is a poor man's "boutique".

I have a Quilter MicroPro Mach II 8" combo. Love it.

My boutique is a Port City Pearl 50 watt head with the 1x12 OS Wave. The two combined came out to almost $2000. It's the best clean tone amp I've ever played through. I sold my Boogie Mark IIB which I'd had for decades in order to get it. No regrets.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Alex said:


> On YouTube, of of the guys from Anderton’s goes through his top 5 profiles and most of them come from Michael Britt. The Britt Dumble profiles that are in my unit are stellar.
> 
> Glad you are enjoying the unit. Kemper may have split the atom!


I had the pleasure of chatting at length with Chris at NAMM. Helluva nice guy. I wasn't aware that he had designed the ACCESS Virus synth before the Profiler ( Access Virus - Wikipedia ). So, not only nice, but versatile.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Alex said:


> On YouTube, of of the guys from Anderton’s goes through his top 5 profiles and most of them come from Michael Britt. The Britt Dumble profiles that are in my unit are stellar.
> 
> Glad you are enjoying the unit. Kemper may have split the atom!


Yes, I've just made my way to those profiles. I've actually created a few Performances based on amp type, my most recent was one for Dumbles. Five M Britt presets from clean to cranked Dumbles that I can step through and compare.

Just to tie into this thread, I can see this killing any GAS I may have ever had for a one-voice boutique amp. This box may only be 95% or 99% of the way there (from a pure sonics POV), but it does so much beyond the standard Fender, Vox or Marshall high-end clone. I also get that some people will do a lot for that last 1 to 5%. In live situations (which is my primary application), I just don't think I can hear it.

Splitting the atom may be an apt term. I would perhaps think it was a bit of hyperbole, but this platform's been kick arse and taking names for 6 or 7 years now. That's like decades in software-based equipment. Not quite a flash in the pan or this month's fave.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

The Kemper Profiler head is about $2400 cdn.

The London Power Studio is $2600.

Both claim to do everything. One digital, one analog.

I imagine the Kemper would be easier to use live.

For that extra "5 %" ... I would go with an all-canadian boutique build for sure. 

https://www.londonpower.com/image/data/studio-float_1000.jpg


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

KapnKrunch said:


> The Kemper Profiler head is about $2400 cdn.
> 
> The London Power Studio is $2600.
> 
> ...


Both may claim to 'do everything' but one of those claims is a lot more exaggeration than the other. 

'Do everything' can run the gamut, from a wide range of analog tones, one at a time, to hundreds and hundreds of voices, presets, effects and options, all footswitchable in a live setting. It's all perspective.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I’m sure the London unit is something special but I don’t think it’s offered as an alternative to the Kemper.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

High/Deaf said:


> Both may claim to 'do everything' but one of those claims is a lot more exaggeration than the other.
> 
> 'Do everything' can run the gamut, from a wide range of analog tones, one at a time, to hundreds and hundreds of voices, presets, effects and options, all footswitchable in a live setting. It's all perspective.


I hear ya.

At a typical gig, I would want the presets. As I have already implied in this rhread.

However, my retirement perspective is all analogue.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

I have an old Digitech modeling pedal a friend gave me. I can really see how for a pro doing of a variety of songs from different bands something like this would be really handy. Make presets for each song in the set and just scroll up as needed. If a Kemper does this except it’s 100 times better I can see the need/want for it. 

I don’t understand the boutique amp thing at all though. I look at amps for sale and I can buy a real 1960s vintage Fender Bassman head for $1000 or less. Or a Traynor. Or even a JCM900. These and a bunch of pedals should be good, no? (I’m asking, not stating...I’m a newb to all this...)

Of course, Johan Segeborn has now proven a Peavey Bandit can sound like a classic Marshall. So I’m set .


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## gitapik (Aug 5, 2016)

I was talking with a friend of mine who does a lot of touring. He's on the fence at this point about modelers. Loves his amps and pedals. But his interest gets stronger as the technology gets better.

I asked him about the Kemper and he said it's great but he's leaning more towards the AXE FX-II.






Anyone playing through one?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

gitapik said:


> I was talking with a friend of mine who does a lot of touring. He's on the fence at this point about modelers. Loves his amps and pedals. But his interest gets stronger as the technology gets better.
> 
> I asked him about the Kemper and he said it's great but he's leaning more towards the AXE FX-2.
> 
> ...


There is of course now an Axe-FX 3. Four times more processing power than the 2, which was double the previous version.

All three of the high-end digital platforms have their place in the market. Both Fractal and L6 are probably deeper, from an editing POV. The Kemper is simpler and more straight-forward, from what I've heard and IME. One of the critiques of the Kemper is that there isn't an official Kemper deep editor (there are 3rd party editors, though). 

That's OK with me, because I prefer to just use the sounds it has already installed. I may never even profile my own amps as there are so many profiles available (14k on line for free right now), all my amps are already done to a higher level than I could probably do it. Not saying I never will, but I'm in info-overload after 2 weeks with this box. And at this point, I couldn't imagine wading into one of the others if they are deeper than this thing.


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## gitapik (Aug 5, 2016)

Interesting you’d mention the III.

One of the main reasons I haven’t made the move yet is for fear the a newer/improved model will be introduced.

I went on their site to compare the II with the Kemper and sure enough...

Back in the ‘90s I bought a Roland RSP 500 processor. It was inexpensive because it was the “sound of the ‘80s.”

I did a lot more than just the ‘80s on that piece of gear. Might wait for the prices to go down on older modelers. Not sure though.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

gitapik said:


> I was talking with a friend of mine who does a lot of touring. He's on the fence at this point about modelers. Loves his amps and pedals. But his interest gets stronger as the technology gets better.
> 
> I asked him about the Kemper and he said it's great but he's leaning more towards the AXE FX-II.
> 
> ...


I've always felt that the Kemper concept sort of missed an important point. It's STILL an amp.

For me one of the biggest advantages with going to a modeler is eliminating the amps altogether. I'm sure the sounds are good but it's really just a more flexible amp.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

The prices have gone down. I want a II just for more effects abilities than my FX8. But im not in a dire need so Im sitting tight.

And I cant afford it.

I would use the amp models at home instead of the garageband models I use now.


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## gitapik (Aug 5, 2016)

Milkman said:


> I've always felt that the Kemper concept sort of missed an important point. It's STILL an amp.
> 
> For me one of the biggest advantages with going to a modeler is eliminating the amps altogether. I'm sure the sounds are good but it's really just a more flexible amp.


Interesting. I like looking at it that way. Thanks.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

If I wasn't technologically inept I would consider a higher end modeller. Yeah they might be pricey, but selling my current amps would give me the cash. I do like the idea of having a ton of classic amps in one unit and also being able to achieve great overdriven tones at TV volumes.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Milkman said:


> I've always felt that the Kemper concept sort of missed an important point. It's STILL an amp.
> 
> For me one of the biggest advantages with going to a modeler is eliminating the amps altogether. I'm sure the sounds are good but it's really just a more flexible amp.


As I understood it, both the Kemper and Fractal systems are intended to feed either a mixing desk, or a clean power amp and PA-type speaker system. That is, they are intended to feed sound-reinforcement systems that add no coloration of their own. So, insomuch as one might feel comfortable mic-ing up a preferred lower-power amp (e.g., a Princeton Reverb or Deluxe) and allowing an audience to hear that amp over the P.A., I would think that bypassing the guitar amp and feeding the sound-reinforcement system directly would/could be just as good. Not unless the mic itself is an essential part of the resulting tone.

FWIW, former forum member Ian Chesal (iaresee) uses his Fractal system through a straight clean power amp and PA speaker.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Ok, fair enough. It’s just that most of the Kempers I’ve seen have been heads with cabs.

Granted they do go direct.


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## gitapik (Aug 5, 2016)

Milkman said:


> Ok, fair enough. It’s just that most of the Kempers I’ve seen have been heads with cabs.
> 
> Granted they do go direct.


I just saw that they have a rack mounted one, too. Didn't know that.


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

For contrast, I have a compact 50w tube amp that weighs 35 lbs, doesn’t require a cab so it can be used on a silent stage, has a cab emulated DI out for feeding direct to FOH or a FRFR, or I can send a raw line out to a Two Notes if that’s more to my liking. It’s switching logic is midi, so that it can integrate with things like an FX-8.

Personally, I don’t think it’s safe to assume that tube amp manufacturers are just going to roll over and die. I think the competition from digital is good as it’s forcing tube manufacturers to evolve and make better products.

Today, I think the future is hybridization. Let tubes do the things tubes are good at, let solid state do the things solid state is good at, and let digital do the things digital is good at.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Milkman said:


> I've always felt that the Kemper concept sort of missed an important point. It's STILL an amp.
> 
> For me one of the biggest advantages with going to a modeler is eliminating the amps altogether. I'm sure the sounds are good but it's really just a more flexible amp.


?? It's as much an amp as an Axe-FX or Helix is. They are all amps - digital amps with tons of flexibility and options. 

The biggest difference is how you get you're digital simulations (models or profiles, depending on the platform). You can build them module by module (Axe/Helix) or you can take a snapshot of one of your own amps at a specific setting (Kemper). One process appeals to some people while the other appeals to others. But they are functionally not that different to use live or recording. And the sound quality is similar.

It is a more flexible live solution. The problem, if anything, is option overkill. Our band supplies backline in a lot of cases, I can't imagine this being very popular in that situation. I have people struggle with my LSS and basic pedalboard (although they like the DRRI or TA15, much simpler amps to dial in). That said, the UI of the Kemper is a lot easier to grasp in a 30 second walk-through than the other two, IME.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

mhammer said:


> As I understood it, both the Kemper and Fractal systems are intended to feed either a mixing desk, or a clean power amp and PA-type speaker system. That is, they are intended to feed sound-reinforcement systems that add no coloration of their own. So, insomuch as one might feel comfortable mic-ing up a preferred lower-power amp (e.g., a Princeton Reverb or Deluxe) and allowing an audience to hear that amp over the P.A., I would think that bypassing the guitar amp and feeding the sound-reinforcement system directly would/could be just as good. Not unless the mic itself is an essential part of the resulting tone.
> 
> FWIW, former forum member Ian Chesal (iaresee) uses his Fractal system through a straight clean power amp and PA speaker.


I would say that is one of the intended uses, but not the only one. 

Some people believe you get the maximum advantage of digital rigs using IR/cab models through an FRFR/FOH while others believe the familiar sound of a few different amps through their chosen guitar cab is preferred (me). This is similar to the voice range of my TA-15 through a cab - no cab is perfect for the range of amps that head has, it is always a bit of a compromise one way or the other. 

I already have the guitar cabs so leaning that way was a no-brainer for me. Our band only mics about 25% of the time, most of the time my guitar sound is the sound I have off the stage. So direct output wasn't the highest priority to me, although I will certainly try it (I do that with good results with my Fryette PS and tube amps). I can see big advantages to direct recording, using lower volumes and being able to achieve consistent, repeatable results more easily. Re-amping is a piece of cake on these things.

I guess it really depends on how you weight your usage and how easily you can justify the fairly large buy-in. I certainly felt some comfort in the stable hardware platform and free OS updates that the Kemper route is going. The same hardware for 7 years, no customer has been abandoned or pushed towards hardware upgrades. There is still no talk of a KemperII, just more software updates. I like that.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

gitapik said:


> I just saw that they have a rack mounted one, too. Didn't know that.


Yep, you only give up two knobs and some of the lights indicating pot settings (nice to see when morphing sounds). 

The rack unit is the route pretty well all touring guitarists use. In my case, the 'head' is what came up used. I don't find it the most attractive (and that's why it's called the toaster), but looks is a minor consideration to me. It is funky looking in a StarTrek 1st gen / Lost in Space kinda way. I suspect non-guitar players will find it trippy with the flashing lights and LCD screen, while old-schooler amp guys will (continue to) hate the visuals of one sitting on a cab.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

_Azrael said:


> For contrast, I have a compact 50w tube amp that weighs 35 lbs, doesn’t require a cab so it can be used on a silent stage, has a cab emulated DI out for feeding direct to FOH or a FRFR, or I can send a raw line out to a Two Notes if that’s more to my liking. It’s switching logic is midi, so that it can integrate with things like an FX-8.
> 
> Personally, I don’t think it’s safe to assume that tube amp manufacturers are just going to roll over and die. I think the competition from digital is good as it’s forcing tube manufacturers to evolve and make better products.
> 
> Today, I think the future is hybridization. Let tubes do the things tubes are good at, let solid state do the things solid state is good at, and let digital do the things digital is good at.


I agree. I think the more options, the better. Every solutions is not for every player or every scenario. 

I don't think any builder (of any tech) is going to roll over and die. The really risk to guitar amps (and the boutique tube amp subset of that group) is the shear lack of new players, IMO. There is a limited market and it ain't growing. If anything, that's where digital may have the advantage, as the hardware will get cheaper. Not so with high-end tube amps and tubes/components. And consider that most new players don't care what Jimmy, Jimi or Eric used.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

High/Deaf said:


> I would say that is one of the intended uses, but not the only one.
> 
> Some people believe you get the maximum advantage of digital rigs using IR/cab models through an FRFR/FOH while others believe the familiar sound of a few different amps through their chosen guitar cab is preferred (me). This is similar to the voice range of my TA-15 through a cab - no cab is perfect for the range of amps that head has, it is always a bit of a compromise one way or the other.
> 
> ...


I don't know if I'll ever get a Digital Modeller, but if I ever do decide to go that route again this post (among many other references from many sources) will strongly sway my vote to Kemper. Apart from the fact that it's been pretty much proven that it simulates very close to perfection, the bones of the unit seem to have been thought out enough in advance to allow for a longer lifespan than some of the other units. It's almost old school in that way.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Dorian2 said:


> I don't know if I'll ever get a Digital Modeller, but if I ever do decide to go that route again this post (among many other references from many sources) will strongly sway my vote to Kemper. Apart from the fact that it's been pretty much proven that it simulates very close to perfection, the bones of the unit seem to have been thought out enough in advance to allow for a longer lifespan than some of the other units. It's almost old school in that way.


Don't blame me, blame @Alex . That's what I'm doing. 

I have zero regrets on the path I've chosen. For my uses and my process, it was the best fit. Everyone will have a different calculation on what fits them best. It's good to have options.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Milkman said:


> Ok, fair enough. It’s just that most of the Kempers I’ve seen have been heads with cabs.
> 
> Granted they do go direct.


That's been my experience as well. But that is in smaller club / band settings. No one knows what the pros are using because they are racked up and sitting side of stage, with the guitar tech. The pro stages are way past walls of amps and heads - well, unless you're Angus or Yngwie, I suppose.

My hero, Devin Townsend, uses a Kemper as his main (D) sound and an Axe-FX for his left/right (W/W) sounds live. You'd never know that if you didn't watch one of his gear walk-throughs.

I can totally see why a lot of pros use these, especially mid-sized pros. This is how they transport their rig(s) of choice.


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## gitapik (Aug 5, 2016)

*Sigh*

A thumb drive


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

Was the market for boutique amps big ever??
Have more than 4 people on this forum ever purchased a new boutique amp from a builder or store??

I don’t think so.
The used market of people buying those amps off of the 4 dudes at a fraction of their msrp is booming.

I don’t think any hand made goods are generating record high sales at this point in history where people would rather stock pile cheap things than invest in a handful of very high quality / luxury items.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Always12AM said:


> Was the market for boutique amps big ever??
> Have more than 4 people on this forum ever purchased a new boutique amp from a builder or store??
> 
> I don’t think so.
> ...


lol.

the reason for boutique wait lists being 6 months to 2 years is because demand is low and only 3 guys buy all their stuff


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