# I feel ripped off after a really bad experience on Kijiji



## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

After a lot of research, I decided to buy an Epiphone Les Paul 50th Anniversary 1960 V3 from 2010. It has very similar specs (Gibson pups, 50s wiring, switchcraft, long tenon, etc.) to the new Epi '59, and they're quite rare. It also comes with a nice case. The guitar looked to be in perfect condition, and later upon inspection it was, to an extent.

When inspecting it, I noticed that there was a sticker at the back of the headstock with the serial number. I asked the seller about it, and he laughed it off, essentially saying something like "That's Epiphone! haha!". I have an Epi from 2017, so I didn't think much of the possibility that the serial number system could be different in years prior.

When I got home, I checked the serial on the sticker, and it didn't show up in the database. Through research, I figured out that the guitar had been a refurbished model and there was a serial number underneath with the last three numbers defaced. My preliminary research shows that this is done automatically by Epiphone so that it can't be sold as new and is passed on to the MIRC (Musical Instrument Reclamation Center). They remove these last three numbers, engrave it as either "2nd" or "Used" and then place a sticker on top. The guitar I have has a "USED" engraving above the serial number which from what I have read thus far is the more serious of the two, indicating that it was sent to the factory due to a defect serious enough that Epiphone would not want to be responsible for its warranty it at the time. Obviously I'm really disappointed to realize this as it is a clear indication that at some time there was a problem with the instrument, and furthermore it affects the value of the guitar.

I asked the seller for a refund immediately after finding out this info, and he would have none of it, saying that he's not a music store, so no warranty. I was appealing to a sense of ethics and morality on his part.

I have read that the lack of a serial number may not even be an Epi refurbished at all bur could even indicate a fraud somewhere down the line as the serial number itself can't be verified. I'm scared to open the guitar and realize that it may not even have the Gibson Burstbuckers that this model should have.

Anyway, I just wanted to get this off my chest to the GC community. Right now I'm so disappointed that I don't even want to play the guitar... I hope this doesn't affect me bonding with it, because that would really, really, suck.

EDIT: I added pics. They appear later in the thread


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## Verne (Dec 29, 2018)

I'd pull the pickups before going in with a tainted view of the guitar. It could have what you want, or could even sound better than you are thinking it will at this point. You've bought it, he won't reimburse, so sadly, you now have to deal with it maybe being less than ideal from initial impression. It sucks, and there are people who will mislead you in the ad and/or in person. I hope it doesn't turn out to be less than you hope. I'd be annoyed and also look at the guitar with disdain. Best case is you like the sound and playability, worst case is your resell and take a hit.


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## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

I’d hunt the bastard down and scalp the fucker...

but that’s just me.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Frenchy99 said:


> I’d hunt the bastard down and scalp the fucker...
> 
> but that’s just me.


Aren't you in Montreal?


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

isoneedacoffee said:


> The guitar looked to be in perfect condition, and later upon inspection it was, to an extent.


If it looks good, sounds good, and has the hardware it's supposed to I wouldn't be too upset. Mind you I'm not a high end Epiphone collector (I hear there are two) who would be put off by such things. It's obviously something you wanted, go enjoy it.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Worst case, you could sell for a loss...but how much could that really be for an Epi? $100? $200? It suck but it’s not the end of the world. Play it until you know whether you like it or not and proceed accordingly. Live and learn.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

I think many here would be interested to see some pictures, I would.  
I'd take the strings off and verify the pickups. Then put new strings on it and set it up and see what it's like. It might be what you wanted.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Is it one of these?


https://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/epiphone-limited-edition-50th-anniversary-1960-les-paul-version-3-electric-guitar



I didn't know Epiphone was putting Burstbuckers into some guitars.


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## Squawk (Jun 21, 2018)

Doesn't Kijiji have a feedback system? I'd leave a scathing review of the seller. Sounds like a complete douche kabob of monumental proportions...


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## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

Refurbished or 2ND Epiphones aren't guitars with major flaws. Most of the time you can't even find what was wrong with it to start with. I had a nice 2ND LP Tribute Plus with a color blemish, everthing else was perfect on it. You can see the purpleish blotch between pots and bridge pickup.








If you had a great deal on it, I say play and enjoy it. Definitively pull out the pickups to see about that.

I don't know what database you search on, because very often, they don't work for Epiphone serials. Epiphone serials identify the year and factory in the first digits. I guess they scratched the last four, which is the production number, the actual serial.

What are the digits left ? Maybe I can tell you what year it is and where it was made.


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## ezcomes (Jul 28, 2008)

isoneedacoffee said:


> Aren't you in Montreal?


Those are the scariest guys...arent they?

😉


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

tomee2 said:


> Is it one of these?
> 
> 
> https://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/epiphone-limited-edition-50th-anniversary-1960-les-paul-version-3-electric-guitar


If that's the guitar, you got a nice looking Les Paul and the case is unique - it sucks that this has you down when you should be excited about your new guitar. If there's not something popping out at you, it's probably as @BGood said some minor finish issue or some such thing. Crank it up to 11.


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## GeorgeMich (Jun 6, 2013)

For clarity did the seller know it was a 2nd?


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

^ That's a good point.

I'm also w/ Blue here. If the guitar looks and plays nice, who's to complain? Guitars aren't investments, buy a house or gold if you want that. Or if you want something perfect, buy new. Buying from Kijiji or CL is always a gamble.

As for refunding. I once sold a beautiful hardtail American made Strat years back - sold it for a good price for both of us. And it was a player's guitar, very nice - just had no soul (for me). The guy called me up months later and wanted his money back because the neck numbers didn't match the body. I never had it apart for the years I owned it and never knew that - I also never made any promises when I sold it. As the seller mentioned, I ain't no retail store either, tough luck.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

tomee2 said:


> I think many here would be interested to see some pictures, I would.
> I'd take the strings off and verify the pickups. Then put new strings on it and set it up and see what it's like. It might be what you wanted.


I'll post some pics here very soon. I'm going to verify the pickups, and take pics of the thick carved maple cap as well which this guitar should have.



tomee2 said:


> Is it one of these?
> 
> 
> https://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/epiphone-limited-edition-50th-anniversary-1960-les-paul-version-3-electric-guitar
> ...


That's it!


GeorgeMich said:


> For clarity did the seller know it was a 2nd?


Maybe? Maybe not? I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. He wasn't the original owner. But I didn't know I was buying a refurbished guitar. That's not what he was advertising. So whether he knew or not, it clearly has a different resale value, and he didn't respond to that. I contacted him as soon as I got home after doing this quick research on the internet. It's not like I held on to the guitar for a month.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

FatStrat2 said:


> If the guitar looks and plays nice, who's to complain? Guitars aren't investments, buy a house or gold if you want that. Or if you want something perfect, buy new. Buying from Kijiji or CL is always a gamble.


You are right, guitars aren't investments - which is why I bought an epiphone. My actual investments are in the bank. But, if I resell this epiphone at a loss I will now have less money to invest. That's how it works.

Man, if you ever get in a car accident due to some douchebag driving like an idiot, I hope nobody says to you that driving is always a gamble.



FatStrat2 said:


> As for refunding. I once sold a beautiful hardtail American made Strat years back - sold it for a good price for both of us. The guy called me up months later and wanted his money back because the neck numbers didn't match the body. I never had it apart for the years I owned it and never knew that - I also never made any promises when I sold it. As the seller mentioned, I ain't no retail store either, tough luck.


I called immediately, not "months later.". I won't comment beyond that on how you handled your past transaction.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

In all fairness, doing some research...after you get home...isn’t really the best way to go about things.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

JBFairthorne said:


> In all fairness, doing some research...after you get home...isn’t really the best way to go about things.


As I said in the original post, I asked him about the serial number and the seller laughed it off saying it was fine. In retrospect, I could have asked him for the serial number before viewing the guitar, but I know that some people are touchy about sharing that info beforehand.


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## Squawk (Jun 21, 2018)

This is the reason as a seller, to have excellent and comprehensive photos, so everything is clear, including serial, or odd sticker overtop of serial number.

If the guitar plays nice, I personally wouldn’t care. However if I unknowingly sold it as the seller in this case, and the buyer informed me that something wasn’t disclosed properly and he/she wasn’t happy, I’d want to make it right, regardless.

(That’s of course mainly because I wouldn’t want some guy named Squawk on a forum calling me a douche kabob… 😆)


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Are you setting it up soon? Any pics?


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

No offence intended. I just would have insisted on the serial. It’s not like there aren’t a zillion other Epi’s for sale on Kijiji. If something seems off or you aren’t getting the info you ask for in order to make an informed decision then move on. If you go ahead then you kind of have to accept the outcome. To be honest, if I were in your position now, I wouldn’t have the stones to call the guy back to complain. It would suck but I would be pissed at myself for not doing my due diligence.

In this case, it’s an inexpensive guitar so it’s really not that big of a deal. I overpaid for a guitar once or twice myself. It stings a bit but these things happen.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

^ Agreed, it's basically buyer beware. Asking the seller for information and him laughing at you isn't research.


isoneedacoffee said:


> ...Man, if you ever get in a car accident due to some douchebag driving like an idiot, I hope nobody says to you that driving is always a gamble...


That already happened to me last year, and again 11 years ago. Driving is a bit of gamble, that's how insurance looks at it.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

isoneedacoffee said:


> As I said in the original post, I asked him about the serial number and the seller laughed it off saying it was fine. In retrospect, I could have asked him for the serial number before viewing the guitar, but I know that some people are touchy about sharing that info beforehand.


Buyer beware. You have no case or complaint here, you willingly handed over $$ without knowing for sure what you had, that is on you regardless how much of a loser the seller is. Not criminal ‘enough’ for the cops to care, not likely a big enough future loss to take it to small claims, and anyways good luck convincing a judge.

I hope you got a good guitar, focus on figuring that part out and, if not, move it on.


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## wraub (May 21, 2021)

This thread needs pics.......


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

So I just put her under the knife to check the internals... Glad to see that everything is as it should be, with Gibson Burtsbuckers, and a very healthy cap of maple! I've got pics for you. As you will also see, the seller replaced the truss rod cover for one that is plain. I knew about this before I bought it. It's too bad he didn't keep the original that specifies the model. But, oh well.

After doing this check and taking the pics, I feel like I'm starting to warm up to the guitar.


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## PBGas (Jan 14, 2017)

That sucks that people pull this kind of crap but it is a reality. However, the guitar looks really nice and has the hardware in place that should be there. As long as the neck is straight and no twists or other issues, just roll with it and enjoy. I know that the feeling is that it is something of a B-stock but looking at it, one could never tell. 

Does it play well and intonate correctly?


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

Thanks PGGas! When I checked it out yesterday, the neck looked great and there was nothing about the guitar structurally or aesthetically that seemed off. I'm going to really put it through its paces over the next couple of days, but I don't anticipate any issues.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Nice to see! Gibson BBs in an Epiphone, never knew they did that. 
Can you find the 'flaw' that might explain it being a 2nd or a return? It might be there was nothing, and it was simply a returned guitar? 
Looks great though!


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Yeah, I don't see what all the negativity is about, that looks like a nice one to own. Glad you're warming up to it.


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

tomee2 said:


> Nice to see! Gibson BBs in an Epiphone, never knew they did that.
> Can you find the 'flaw' that might explain it being a 2nd or a return? It might be there was nothing, and it was simply a returned guitar?
> Looks great though!


Thamks @tomee2

There are some select models that have Gibson pickups. Unless I'm missing any, they are the Elites, Tributes, some Traditional/Standards with the "Plus" designation, and some special runs like the one I have which is a 50 Anniversary edition, and the new '59 from 2020. As for Burtsbuckers specifically, I have only seen them in the 50th anniversary editions and the new '59. But I could definitely be wrong about that.

I can't find any flaws. From what I've read, sometimes guitars are marked as "used" for flaws, whether aesthetic or structural. But sometimes they are simply returns as you say, or discontinued, even overstock models. My feeling is that nothing catastrophic happened to this guitar at all.

Reverb actually has a whole article on this that is rather interesting.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

skipped most of the thread,. guitar looks great and the components are better than the standard Epi offerings. 

happy ending?


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## isoneedacoffee (Oct 31, 2014)

vadsy said:


> skipped most of the thread,. guitar looks great and the components are better than the standard Epi offerings.
> 
> happy ending?


Thanks Vadsy. In terms of the ending, it's looking very good so far, but it's been a bit of a "choose your own adventure." At first, I was inclined to choose something like a Greek tragedy - the sky was falling and I was on my knees wailing at the gods - now it's looking like a romance.


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## bigboki (Apr 16, 2015)

Great looking guitar, with great electronics, plays well, happy ending to the story.
Rock ON!


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Great looking guitar with a cool story now. If it plays and sounds as good as it looks, you might just have a keeper there. Congrats!


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