# Let's talk money (for musicians)



## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

I don't know if you guys have discussed this before but it seem like there are diverse opinions on this topic and a good Canadian thread will probably be appreciated by many.

-How much do you get paid for playing in a bar?
-How much for recording a song in a studio? (as a session player) 
-How much for recording in your own studio? (provided that u have the right gear) 
-How much for playing a festival?
-How much to be a hired gun or for a last minute replace?
-How much to work in USA, for example?
-Any band leaders or managers here with experience negotiating entire shows? (I'm personally interested in this question) 
-How important are the exchange rates in all this? 

Any other idea or question is welcome, I just want to hear what you guys think and learn in the process. Let's have fun!


----------



## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

amagras said:


> I don't know if you guys have discussed this before but it seem like there are diverse opinions on this topic and a good Canadian thread will probably be appreciated by many.
> 
> -How much do you get paid for playing in a bar?


Depends. I do a once a month bar gig in Toronto with a 14 piece band that pays the door. On average, it's $50. Let's call that my minimum.



amagras said:


> -How much for recording a song in a studio?


$150 minimum for a 3 hour session



amagras said:


> -How much for recording in your own studio?


Well, that's usually for me, so I do it gratis, 'cos I can take it out in trade!



amagras said:


> -How much for playing a festival?


$200/musician + HST; double for the leader



amagras said:


> -How much to be a hired gun or for a last minute replace?


Depends on the situation.



amagras said:


> -How much to work in USA for example?


$300/service, plus all transportation, accomodation and food expense covered, as well as the cost of the P2 Visa.



amagras said:


> Any other idea or question is welcome, I just want to hear what you guys think and learn in the process. Let's have fun!


----------



## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Thank you @Merlin for going through all the questions. What do you mean by 300/service?


----------



## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

Rehearsals, gigs, appearances = a service.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I think it really depends on type of music for some of these things. Festivals pay best in my limited experience (the only "session work" I've done was for free for friends).


----------



## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

In all cases you get what you negotiate, not what you deserve.


----------



## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

ronmac said:


> In all cases you get what you negotiate, not what you deserve.


So sometimes you come out ahead & sometimes behind?


----------



## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

I found more questions: 

-Do you sell music online?
-How often do you buy music online?


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

amagras said:


> I found more questions:
> 
> -Do you sell music online?
> -How often do you buy music online?


The band sells music online. I distribute my own music online for free via soundcloud (previously soundclick, which still exists but I don't use the account anymore).

I rarely buy music online. I use download cards I get with records (everyone should do that IMO) and I had an iTunes gift card which I used to buy two or three albums.


----------



## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I still buy CD's...outta the $5 Walmart bin. Most recent purchase, Full Moon Fever for one of my son's b-day presents next week. Had my eye on a Burton Cummings best of kinda things too.


----------



## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

They always have Rush


----------



## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

amagras said:


> I found more questions:
> 
> -Do you sell music online?
> -How often do you buy music online?


I don't sell music online, but I have bought some.


----------



## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

Ottawa area bar bands are lucky to get 150.00 each a night. Festival, weddings, casinos and corporate events pay better. Been at this for over 45 years and the pay rate has gone down. Easier to get a disco, Karaoke guy to play for 7hrs. So enjoy what you do and make people happy with your music.


----------



## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

+1 on what Marc said about Ottawa area musicians. And for session rates here is an article from the Globe and Mail last year regarding session musicians.

I want to be a session musician. What will my salary be?


----------



## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Well...it depends. I've reduced my outside work considerably in recent years due to health and travel concerns. Certain aspects of the music business are tough on a person.

Bars? I don't play bars anymore besides the local Legion (which is so close I can see it from my place), and after the band and sound man split last night I took home $70.

Studio work? $40/hour plus, but usually a minimum of $100. This work has tailed off in recent years due to the advent of home studios and my increased unwillingness to travel and work outside of sensible daytime hours. There are no large local studios. I'm old, what can I say?

My own studio? I only do my own projects at home so I don't pay myself. By far the most creatively rewarding part of the job, but pays next to squat.

Festivals? It depends on travel, number of sets, festival's ability to pay, band split, etc., but I hate to leave the house for less than $100 plus expenses.

Hired gun? Usually whatever the regular guy would have got, just to be fair to the band, though sometimes I've been offered more when practices have been necessary. I done some local musical theatre that payed zip.

One-offs? Often in the form of folky duos for me so whatever the employer has offered the "name" divided by 2 or whatever I can negotiate. Depends on how much I want the gig I guess, but anywhere from $40 to $100+. Wedding ceremonies are another story altogether, but I generally won't play one for less than $200 (my share) if it's local and much more when things get complicated. Summer weddings screw up an otherwise perfectly good weekend so they better pay well. 

USA? Not in this or any other life will I work there. 

Online sales? I don't personally sell music online, but folks I've played for have or do.

Online purchases? Yup, sheet music, CDs, and books, but I don't download.

Peace, Mooh.


----------



## b-nads (Apr 9, 2010)

When I do solo stuff, it's a $200 night minimum - I usually request and stick by $300 though.

Bar bands - a little tougher...more guys in the picture, and guys with the system tend to want a bit more. The lowest I've played was $70 per night...and this bar even charged us for bottled water, let alone beer. I played there once again as a solo, and I'll never go back. I hear Chit and Marc - there are Ottawa bands who have come down there and played that bar for $300 per night with a 5-piece...crazy.

I got $750 as a solo at a festival last year for 2 nights - one short set on opener, and a full afternoon.

I do sit-ins with a local band sometimes, but I only play guitar and do some harmonies - no lead vox. I get a $100 night out of that, which buys a brand new second-hand pedal or something else ;-)

The only recording I've done, I've paid to do, or was working with a band. Never got paid to play on anyone's pro recordings because I simply am not a good enough guitarist for that.

I'm working on my own home-recording rig, and it's coming along. Hoping to have some of my own music online eventually.

States - played a couple pubs south of the border...same as the pubs up here. Pay was about the same too, but if you build pup a following the pubs I played there tended to value that and negotiate with you after, whereas locally, tough luck.


----------



## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

In my 4-piece we charge $400 - $500 depending on the venue for bars or most special events regardless of how long we play. A festival or New Years, Halloween, or St. Paddys where were expected to learn specific material, dress up, wait around or submit an invoice and wait to get paid then it's more ( wouldn't do another New Years for less than $300 in my own pocket) .

I am also playing in a duo for senior citizens homes. It's an easy setup, the crowd is super-receptive and we play for an hour. I'll do 40 or 50 of those this year for $50 - $60 each.


----------



## robare99 (Jan 9, 2012)

Cover band, we play private parties etc. 5 piece band. General rate for a gig: $1600 - $2000 NYE we get $2600. I'd sub for a couple hundred.

Typically I take $100 off the top for providing the sound/light rig and then we split the rest evenly. We've only played bars a couple times. One time w got $600 for a one nighter the other time it was $800/night, a fri sat thing.


----------



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Live Music Measures Up: An Economic Impact Analysis of Live Music in Ontario - Music Canada


----------



## flyswatter (Apr 6, 2016)

When I was a full-time musician back in the 90s, I used to earn $150 to $200 a night as a solo performer in lounges and "pubs" (the Ye Olde restauranty kind) in Southern Ontario. By the time I changed careers (FT that is; never stopped playing PT) in the early 2000s, that scene was drying up and I'd seen the writing on the wall. 

Nowadays, I play only with bands (the solo thing just isn't fun anymore) and earn around $75 to $100 out of the take. I've made more than that on a few corporate and community centre deals over the past couple years -- but never more than about $150. 

Because I have a FT job on the side, I can do this without worrying how to pay the bills. Basically, gig money buys me a nice new guitar or a couple of amps every year and I'm happy. I'm pretty open to the odd freebie show if it's a benefit or a gig with a startup original act and I like the people.

I do feel for those still trying to make a living out of this sham of a business -- been there and done it, and it nearly burned me out once upon a time. I know a few guys who do make ends meet, but they really hustle and are constantly driving all over hell's half acre to pick up weekday nights, or patios, or whatever else gets them their daily bread.


----------



## robare99 (Jan 9, 2012)

Had a discussion with the band this weekend. We are going to increase our price next year to $1800. That will add $200 we can give to a soundman to run my rig. I'll handle monitors from the stage and he can look after FOH. 

He can keep a handle on the mix, bump solos, mute effects etc etc. One less thing I have to do.


----------



## Robboman (Oct 14, 2006)

This turned into an essay.. oh well, u don't have 2 read it 

It's now been about 20 years since I first got paid to gig. Have been active the whole time, but always weekend warriors.. never 'pro' or fulltime. Many periods of ebb and flow in bookings.. very busy periods and very slow periods (like now ) 

Mostly bars, but one band focused more on corporate events and weddings. I've also done the "solo guy with with backing tracks" thing, but most of my gig career has been 3 or 4 player bands (5 for a short while). 

My random thoughts:

1). *Bars:* average musician pay was not great when I started, wen't sideways for years and now it's definitely gone DOWN. There are way fewer hiring venues. 

2). *Corporate Events and Weddings: *There IS money in this, for sure. Bars have to make a profit but corp events and weddings will pay as much as the client wants to spend - which varies greatly but is sometimes a LOT. The client or event manager just needs to believe you're worth it. It's the sort of thing where if you quote too low, they won't hire you, believing you must not be as good as the competing act quoting 4 times your price. 

To succeed as an event band, you must be very rehearsed and tight with lots of popular dance-able songs. You need to deliver them onstage like a DJ, no pause between songs. Keep them dancing at all costs. Really helps to have a strong female singer and other singing players. You need to cover old and young stuff and stick to a lot of generic standard hits. You end up picking songs from pop charts, and adding backing tracks when you realize how many hits have horns or orchestra or synth. Lots of pop today has no discernible guitar parts, you end up doing those anyway if they're big enough hits. Drummer better be willing to play to a clicktrack. No messing around jamming, veering off set list, extended guitar solos.. no original songs that nobody knows. You HAVE to be willing to play familiar music you don't personally like. You have to have that "Lets Party!" persona going on stage at all times, be willing to fake enthusiasm if needed. 

In short, to make the big bucks in a corporate party band, what you do is sell your musician soul, become a pure businessman and put a lot of professional work into building up the act you think will have the widest appeal and be easiest to sell. You also need pro marketing materials and good business and communication skills to succeed. 

If it all pans out you start landing big money gigs. But you soon realize it FEELS very different than playing the bars. 

For starters, I would feel almost weird and guilty.. like 'Geeze, we better be GOOD.. they're paying us 3 grand for 2 short sets!' Pressure. More common was this feeling of being disconnected from the audience. Like you are just the staff, the background music, the hired help. Because you are. For instance, at corporate Christmas parties (excuse me.. 'Holiday' party.. once had a contract legally specify we weren't permitted to utter the word "Christmas" on mic, LOL).... people often virtually ignore the band and talk amongst themselves. No one actually came there to see your band, no matter how good you are. They came for the free food and booze, mingling, and yes, a band happens to be playing. Some attend because they pretty much have to put in their appearance and shake hands or whatever, then leave early. A few come to really party, but not many real live music types. There's always some who just can't wait for the band to stop playing so they can dance to the latest Bieber hit or whatever from the DJ. 

Basically, there were lots of gigs where we showed up, executed our songlist like a machine, everyone ignored us, then we got paid and went home. Yes, the pay was WAY better than the bars, but after a while I found it really soul-sucking as a musician. I've played to 2000 in a huge hotel conference room and not felt like we made any musical connection at all. More often I've played to 20 people in a small bar, but when they're are all watching, dancing, clapping, hollering.. when you know they're digging it.. it's the funnest thing in the world! If money was no object I'd choose playing for those 20 every time.









.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I assume the people making over $150 per person a nigh,t for a 4+ piece band, are playing cover sets or events. I think you have to be "mid level pro touring band" in most genres to be making that per person. The only bands I know who would get that kind of pay on a regular basis are the bands who have been at it for 10+ years and have a proper following.


----------



## DeSelby (May 4, 2016)

On downloading. If it's stands by the old laws of copyright, I don't download. Post Sonny Bono, f.ck it. It's just publishing houses and beneficiaries who had nothing to do with the music created in the first place.


----------



## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

I played for 8 years with a Grammy nominee act that used to travel overseas 2-4 times a year. We used to get between $150-700+ per show. A few times when we had time in out hands we would accept less $ to play in small clubs but almost all the gigs were festivals and events. In rare occasions when we would have to pay for our own food there would be +-$25/day added in cash. When we were at home we would get the minimum salary just for that.


----------



## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

Great post as there is some excellent info to share here.

-How much do you get paid for playing in a bar?
Our minimum is $600 plus F&D and our max is $1600 plus F&D

-How much for recording a song in a studio? (as a session player)
Depends on the situation but $40/hr and up. In truth many times its in trade for something else or as a favor to a friend.

-How much for recording in your own studio? (provided that u have the right gear)
Does not apply to me.

-How much for playing a festival?
Depends on situation... could be no $ if the "right" exposure is there. Just the same costs have to be covered.

-How much to be a hired gun or for a last minute replace?
I used to do this a fair amount but no longer as I'm very busy with BSH but NO less than $100 plus F&D and expenses. It has been as hi as $400 with the right type of gig. Obviously that wasn't a bar gig and was a corporate function.

-How much to work in USA, for example?
Depends on the situation... Minimum $200 per show. All expenses will be covered including travel, lodging, food & drink, medical insurance. I have not done this to date but I have a contract drawn up in case the offer comes up.

-Any band leaders or managers here with experience negotiating entire shows? (I'm personally interested in this question)
I oversee all our bookings with band members input. Ask me anything specific and I'll do my best to answer.

-How important are the exchange rates in all this?
They are applicable for sure. More important to know market rates in the areas you are bidding on.

Not mentioned here is travel rates. We charge different rates to cover fuel costs, hotels, and meals. Sometimes we may way a fee if the Venue is great for exposure and offers certain perks such as good quality video and social media, local media support.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Music as a business

No thanks. 

I'd rather play music I love, not whatever I have to do to make a buck.

That's not a judgement of anyone who does.

I can make more money behind the board every time.


----------



## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

Its true sound gigs pay better. I play music because I love to but I wont give it away... unless for a great cause


----------



## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Music is all I know, if I don't charge for it I wouldn't be able to provide for my family, this way when I'm not playing, producing or practicing my mind is that of a businessman. Try my services!


----------



## robare99 (Jan 9, 2012)

We had a sub come in for the first time in 7 years. Good guy, great player. Between his list and ours we had a great night. Made it worth his while, $400. He's filling in for this weekend's gig too, same price.

Worth every penny.


----------



## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

It depends what sort of thing you're doing.

Original Music: Usually you're playing for $0 or a split of the door.

Cover band: Most regular rooms you're playing for $300-$400 flat rate for the band. This entails 3 x 45 min sets. I honestly don't know what the "A-circuit" bars are paying. Probably more as the quality of musicianship is generally higher and the rooms are booked by an agency (you've got to prove yourself before you get into the A-circuit rooms).

Tribute band: Quite a bit more than a bar band as it's a specialty act. There's a lot more that goes into it (costumes, etc) and it's a whole show. Only thing with a tribute act is you can't play every weekend with it around town.

One thing some working musicians have seen lately is that the pay has been trending downward. The reason is that there's starting to be a fair number of guys in their 50's and 60's who are weekend warrior types and have been moving from garage to stage. The problem is that enough of them have been playing out and not negotiating or in some cases even asking for any pay whatsoever that it's driving prices down. Venue managers are realizing they can get guys to play and not pay them so they don't want to pay working bands.


----------



## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

That goes back to rule number one... know the market and bid appropriately.
If bands are playing for ridiculously low $ or non at all take the time to make them aware of what they are doing and how it effects the local market pricing. If they don't "get it" don't support them, don't recommend them, don't like their social media, don't offer other advice, don't share venues/gigs with them, don't mention their names other than to say they are beating down prices.
I believe we should all get payed around the same amount which is an adequate and fair amount for the actual work and entertainment ( the product ) provided and it should come down to the quality of the band, the entertainment value, audience request, popularity and we should all work with a common goal which is to foster a great local live music scene for everyone. If the venues are making money with quality bands it will eliminate most problems. If your band fills the venue each time it plays there then you can get top dollar and the venue will love to have you back. A great band plus a great audience plus a great venue = a great experience for everyone.



Powdered Toast Man said:


> One thing some working musicians have seen lately is that the pay has been trending downward. The reason is that there's starting to be a fair number of guys in their 50's and 60's who are weekend warrior types and have been moving from garage to stage. The problem is that enough of them have been playing out and not negotiating or in some cases even asking for any pay whatsoever that it's driving prices down. Venue managers are realizing they can get guys to play and not pay them so they don't want to pay working bands.


----------



## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

Is there a thread topic for discussion on what bands should expect for pay based on where the venue is? ie; Toronto area
It might be a good thing to discuss amongst ourselves in an effort to protect compensation so we don't have what happened in the 90's happen again.
Start out band pricing, established band pricing, venue budgets, list of top paying venues, list of venues that want it all for nothing, base union rates, etc...


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Are you in the union?


----------



## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Budda said:


> Are you in the union?


The union. That alone deserve to have its own thread.


----------



## Slooky (Feb 3, 2015)

I play solo w/backing tracks. Small bars and usually its 120$
Two albums on Itunes
and always buy my music online


----------



## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

My experience (from both sides of the table)... First gig you get what you negotiate. Subsequent gigs you get what you are worth (to the establishment).


----------



## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

Budda no I'm not in the Musician's Union but I'm a 30 plus year member of the IBEW
I am aware of the Union rates and from what I see most of the Calgary Venues pay to that standard. There are a few that don't but they are not what I would consider a live music venue and there are a couple that pay above that standard and are very well know live music venues.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I dont know the rates for gigs, nor do I think it plays a part in our pay even though we are all members.


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I had to be a member 35 years ago (the best part was the "Live Music Is Best" bumper sticker). At that time, no one would think about playing for scale, it wasn't much at the time. Gig money was good and live music was considered worth paying for.

I suspect in this current environment, scale would look pretty good. I don't know if it's gone up - I would assume it has or else they shouldn't call themselves a union - but would it even compensate for the union dues? Probably not.


----------



## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

I'm not sure how much dues are but good point... there has to be value in the cost of dues for sure.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Well dues means you can appy for your work visa, so there's that.


----------



## Lemmy Hangslong (May 11, 2006)

There is one great reason


----------

