# Grandson wants a new acoustic around $400 - suggestions?



## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

As the title states, my son just called and said my grandson is looking for a new acoustic to replace the 3/4 he currently owns and has outgrown. Eletronics preferred. They're looking at new and apparently he's seen an Epiphone that he liked at L&M. 400 bucks is not a lot - but things keep getting better.

Anybody else been shopping for something similar and have any advice?


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## Ricktoberfest (Jun 22, 2014)

Art and lutherie cedar topped. My first “real” acoustic and I’d still play it if I hadn’t worn the frets down to nothing. Great electronics too. Only issue is of course a new fret job costs almost as much as a new guitar. 


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

seagull/art and luthrie/simon and patrick come to mind.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Budda said:


> seagull/art and luthrie/simon and patrick come to mind.


Big fan - but I think these are out of their budget. I believe that this is what they're currently drawn toward:

Epiphone - AJ-210CE Ltd Guitar Outfit - Natural

Says it comes with a case.

The Epiphone acoustics I have played seemed ok for the money but I am a bigger fan of Yamaha as a great value so I may offer this as a suggestion (has a solid top):

Yamaha - Acoustic/Electric Guitar with Solid Sitka Spruce Top

No case - but granddad may spring for that.

The lowest priced (and comparably equipped) Simon and Patrick appears to be the Woodland for $250 more.


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

Way out there as far as budget goes-when I was a young man an old man told me to buy a Martin D45 and get it over with.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

As usual, the question is : What does he like to play, in what style ?

A used Seagull could almost do it.
As well as Godin 5th Avenue...


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## Ricktoberfest (Jun 22, 2014)

allthumbs56 said:


> Big fan - but I think these are out of their budget. I believe that this is what they're currently drawn toward:
> 
> Epiphone - AJ-210CE Ltd Guitar Outfit - Natural
> 
> ...


I see they’ve raised their prices since I looked last. They used to be right at $400 for one with electronics. And that was only a couple years back


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Budda said:


> seagull/art and luthrie/simon and patrick come to mind.





allthumbs56 said:


> I think these are out of their budget


Search used. Godin family are plentiful on kijiji.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I have a Norman B20(6) which is a decent guitar for not much $. Had it since 20oo and no structural issues. It was about 300. You’d need to play a few of them as they might vary a bit though given the price range. Solid Sitka top, laminated cherry B&S, good tuners, good intonation and neck.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Wardo said:


> I have a Norman B20


Same here. Well, had two actually. Gave one to my cousin's son. 
The keeper's a '09 CW with Fishman Presys.
Not too long ago I sold a Seagull S6 to a forum member for his daughter.


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## Buck Corrigan (Nov 15, 2019)

allthumbs56 said:


> As the title states, my son just called and said my grandson is looking for a new acoustic to replace the 3/4 he currently owns and has outgrown. Eletronics preferred. They're looking at new and apparently he's seen an Epiphone that he liked at L&M. 400 bucks is not a lot - but things keep getting better.
> 
> Anybody else been shopping for something similar and have any advice?


Unless you're looking for used guitars, without a doubt, the best value in guitars these days are the Godin family of instruments. Robert Godin and sons are the largest manufacturers of guitars in N. America, and, they stand by theri product warranties !


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

'My advice would be to stay away from Epiphone for an acoustic. Their prices are good. Their guitars are awful to okay. Take him up to The Acoustic Room on James North in Hamilton and talk to Mark. 

www.theacousticroom.ca/store/


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Thanks for the suggestions so far guys. My grandson is 11. The budget is between him and his dad. If I can find one from the Godin family that fits the $400 budget - used or new, I will recommend it. He'd like a cutaway and electronics.

FWIW I expect his "forever" guitar is sitting in my music room and my fingers will be cold before he can have it


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

I would certainly echo the love for Godin products, but if they are out of reach, have a look at some of the Tanglewood line - I've been pleasantly surprised by the ones I've played. (I also own one, but I think that it was probably closer to $600 when it was new, so again, that particular model would be out of range unless he wanted to go used.)


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## reckless toboggan (Mar 9, 2019)

Godin/Seagull

Simon & Patrick


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

What size of guitar is he? At 11 I'd guess around an Orchestra. A cutaway Dread would probably work depnding on the name. A&L do a good job on those. Not to push the Godin brand, but it is what I'm familiar with. For good reason. Is there a way to work out upping the price at all? I'm a proponent of a good first guitar.


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## StratCat (Dec 30, 2013)

Art & Lutherie Legacy. Just bought the Bourbon burst for myself and it sounds quite nice.

available in cutaway W/ electronics.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

I would go used on Kijiji. There are lots and lots of used acoustic guitars. Just be sure to check them out for issues. Yamaha guitars are good value. I bet you could find a great guitar for $200.


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## Larry (Sep 3, 2016)

allthumbs56 said:


> As the title states, my son just called and said my grandson is looking for a new acoustic to replace the 3/4 he currently owns and has outgrown. Eletronics preferred. They're looking at new and apparently he's seen an Epiphone that he liked at L&M. 400 bucks is not a lot - but things keep getting better.
> 
> Anybody else been shopping for something similar and have any advice?


Treat yourself to a New Guitar, and give him one of your's that he already covets.


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## DavidP (Mar 7, 2006)

You're on the right track looking at A&L; you may be able to score a used Seagull (S6?) under $400.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

DavidP said:


> You're on the right track looking at A&L; you may be able to score a used Seagull (S6?) under $400.


I have seen a number of them under $400.00 lately. Don't forget the Simon & Patrick which is the same at the Seagull with a different headstock. I have also seen a few of them under $400.00, actually $250.00.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

That kid may have a hard time with the Seagull S6 neck width. Unless he's into finger style. The S&P's have a smaller neck width/string spacing than the Seagulls, along with the different headstock. Both are great sounding guitars once worked in.


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## Vally (Aug 18, 2016)

Yamaha APX 500 for about $300 on the used market, thinner body with electronics


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Used solid top Yamaha F series


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

allthumbs56 said:


> As the title states, my son just called and said my grandson is looking for a new acoustic to replace the 3/4 he currently owns and has outgrown. Eletronics preferred. They're looking at new and apparently he's seen an Epiphone that he liked at L&M. 400 bucks is not a lot - but things keep getting better.
> 
> Anybody else been shopping for something similar and have any advice?


If his preference is for advanced fingerstyle playing and wants some better acoustic sounds then a Recording King RPS-7-FE3-TS Dirty 30's Series 7 Single 0 Acoustic Guitar with Fishman Sonitone Pickup
Might be a very good choice. 
The Recording Kings that I have played were amazing and had a sweet sweet sound. Not loud and boomy like many acoustics but very well balanced for fingerstyle travis pickin' or flat pickin' blue grass. They epitomize the old school blues sound that I love in an acoustic instrument and have surprisingly good electric pickups on board. I recently had my brother build a custom 00 for my grandson who plays fingerstyle, it was built to a plan for a 1930's martin 00 fingerstyle blues parlor guitar. Here is the instrument with my sample recording snippets done fingerstyle https://www.chrisluthier.ca/chriscell.html 

All and all it really depends upon what style of music your grandson wants to play the most. I started out my studies on a Yairi Sada 00 imitation of a 12 fret to the body 1930s martin parlor guitar, it was one of the sweetest and most inspirational instruments that I have ever owned. Mahogany back and side with an 1 7/8 at the nut rosewood fingerboard I deeply regret having sold it in 1969. Today the old Sada parlor guitars bring big money and are cherished for serious studio work they are that sweet sounding! They are not loud instruments but they can mic beautifully and can sound like no other instrument if well played. They are not suitable for hard core strum bash rock or screeming high volume play. So As I have said, IMO matching the preferences of the player is the most important part of choosing an instrument to give to your grandson.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

cboutilier said:


> Used solid top Yamaha F series


And FG when they pop up.


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

laristotle said:


> And FG when they pop up.


I have not had my hands on an FG for years. I had an FG 180s back in the early 1970s... built like a tank but wow what an ax for under a hundred fifty bucks. It is a wonder that Martin didn't go after Yamaha, I guess having laminated back and sides and a V shaped head stock was enough to dissuade them.. LOL But certainly if the original poster finds a decent FG 180 even if it needs repair work it is well worth preserving and will without a doubt maintain value. From what I understand there are a few FG 180 laminated top guitars with ibeams installed being used in studio by some very influential studio musicians. Seems that they do open up over time with a great deal of playing.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Eric Reesor said:


> I had an FG 180s back in the early 1970s


I had one as well. '72(?) that I picked up used in '77. Had it for ~ 35 yrs before I sold it.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Just remember that this is an 11 year old kid. Used might not be an option. But who knows. @allthumbs56 said he wanted a new guitar so I take that at face value.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Dorian2 said:


> said he wanted a new guitar so I take that at face value.


'New to him' is how I take it. Especially when dad's wallet is involved. lol


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

laristotle said:


> 'New to him' is how I take it. Especially when dad's wallet is involved. lol


Could be. Just throwing it out there.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

any chance of actually asking the kid what he really wants?
new ? newer? any special things he's looking for ? 
or does he really care about the sound, or just wants the "look" / name brand? 

a few minutes of face to face would avoid a lot of disappointments on all sides.


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

Dorian2 said:


> Could be. Just throwing it out there.


Given that he is 11 a full dreadnought might be a little difficult for him to navigate. That is why I suggested something with a slightly smaller body and shorter scale length. 
Some of the 12 fret to the body guitars have a 24 inch scale length and are easier for smaller hands. The Taylor mini or Fender equivalent can be quite good but again the only way is to play one because like most mass produced factory guitars they vary greatly in sound quality. But in my opinion you are paying for a name not a sound. The cheap new Martin acoustics that are manufactured under the Martin name are a similar choice. They can sound good but by and large they sell well only because they have the Martin name on them. Most off the rack are ho hum. So trying out them one by one from a selection of them is the only answer.

The camping guitar that I personally own is a cheapo Almansa 401 cedar top classic that is an off the shelf ringer, there were 4 of them on sale 5 years ago all lined up for sale at Christmas and this particular one stood out and blew the doors of a student Ramirez that I tried in the more expensive locked up demo room of the store where I purchased it!

So the only way to get a good inexpensive instrument is to try them out..IMO

All the best finding the right instrument that inspires your grandson to keep playing.
Eric


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## Bill Kerrigan (Feb 24, 2018)

The Godin family of guitars!


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

Bill Kerrigan said:


> The Godin family of guitars!


I agree with the choice of Godin or even a less expensive instrument from the same company under the A&L label, for a young up and coming steel string acoustic guitar player.

This one seems to be a decent choice especially if the child wants to be able to plug it in. From what I have played in the past of either Godin or an A&L family of guitars they can be quite good even though on their lesser expensive offerings they hide the grain of the wood: which simply means that the tone wood on the top is not cosmetically great which really means nothing if the wood is well quartered and seasoned spruce as indicated in the description of this guitar on the A&L web site. 

At one time Martin resorted to very wide grain Sitka with poor cosmetics on their high production D28s, some of them are absolutely amazing instruments so the cosmetics of even the most famous guitars can mean squat except to the eye but definitely not the ear. Many guitarists over the years have snubbed an instrument with opaque finished out of hand only to really miss the boat and let a stellar instrument pass them by! So trying them out a few at a time is always the best way to buy a less expensive instrument at least in my opinion. 

The old Harmony Sovereigns are a great steel string example of this problem. I still kick myself for not grabbing a great old Swedish made "Espana" and a Sovereign back in Stratford Ont many years ago when I was teaching there. They both had a wonderful clear and rich balanced tone and just needed some care and attention. 

I can't find a price on it yet but this guitar looks far better than most lower priced instruments. Definitely worth a try if you can find one in stock somewhere IMO.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Eric Reesor said:


> I can't find a price on it yet but this guitar looks far better than most lower priced instruments. Definitely worth a try if you can find one in stock somewhere IMO.


$570.00 at Cosmo.

They have it in stock but might be online only; need to call and find out if they have one at the store.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Thanks again for all the input.

I hit the local L&M on Saturday. Their selection left much to be desired - 2 Seagulls and 2 Simon & Patrick. Bunch of Denvers and Epiphones. Few Yammys and a whack of Gibson, Taylor, & Martin. In my opinion the only guitar that is in my son's budget worth getting was from Yamaha:

Yamaha - Acoustic/Electric Guitar with Solid Sitka Spruce Top

- The best "under $700" guitar in that particular store. 

Unfortunately my grandson (turning 12) is drawn to a little more "bling" and the Epiphones are drawing his eye. Not one of those - even the Masterbuilts impressed me. The S&P and the Seagulls pulled off the rack did not hold a candle to the Yamaha either and cost 2 - 3 hundred more. I'm suggesting they hit a couple more stores before deciding on anything.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Remember, he doesnt care about tone yet. Worry about the build quality, but get him something that will make him want to play all the time.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Budda said:


> Remember, he doesnt care about tone yet. Worry about the build quality, but get him something that will make him want to play all the time.


You know that and I know that. Unfortunately I am only consulting on this one - I'm not in on the decisions.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

I've been finding L&M really lacking in selection of Seagulls and those brands a lot of the time. It kinda sucks actually. Yammy's are nice too though.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

allthumbs56 said:


> Thanks again for all the input.
> 
> I hit the local L&M on Saturday. Their selection left much to be desired - 2 Seagulls and 2 Simon & Patrick. Bunch of Denvers and Epiphones. Few Yammys and a whack of Gibson, Taylor, & Martin. In my opinion the only guitar that is in my son's budget worth getting was from Yamaha:
> 
> ...


I believe I mentioned The Acoustic Room on James North, in Hamilton earlier in the thread. Go try out some of the Alvarez guitars they have in stock. They look nice, play nice and won't cost you an arm and a leg.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> I believe I mentioned The Acoustic Room on James North, in Hamilton earlier in the thread. Go try out some of the Alvarez guitars they have in stock. They look nice, play nice and won't cost you an arm and a leg.


They still open? - website is down. Regardless, me driving to Hamilton to try an Alvarez so I can suggest that my son drive there to do the same is probably not on logistically. I'm gonna suggest Thorold Music (not my favourite store but used to have a good variety of A&L and S&P and Seagull) and Central Music in Welland - don't know what lines they're carrying now but I like and trust their staff.

Up to my son now. I've told him I would help a bit but he wants it to be "from mom and dad"and I get that. Case could be from me, I guess.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

allthumbs56 said:


> *They still open? - website is down*. Regardless, me driving to Hamilton to try an Alvarez so I can suggest that my son drive there to do the same is probably not on logistically. I'm gonna suggest Thorold Music (not my favourite store but used to have a good variety of A&L and S&P and Seagull) and Central Music in Welland - don't know what lines they're carrying now but I like and trust their staff.
> 
> Up to my son now. I've told him I would help a bit but he wants it to be "from mom and dad"and I get that. Case could be from me, I guess.


The site works for me and I was there on my last visit to Ontario. It may be a little drive for you (45 minutes) but if you want the best acoustic for your money, it is worth the drive in my opinion. I have been at the stores in the Niagara region since I used to live in St. Catharines. It's your choice but the stores in N/SC don't come close to The Acoustic Room.

Just a thought on the Seagull and S & P. Seagull has wider spacing on the nut with their older guitars (about a year ago). That might be something to watch for with the young guy as his hands are likely still on the smaller size.


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## MarkM (May 23, 2019)

What about a S&P parlour guitar, nice and small and they sound pretty good?


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

I just had a boo at the Epiphone acoustic electric at a local L&M that you referred to early on in the thread, @allthumbs56. The one that was there was decently balanced in acoustic sound but not very inspiring as far as overall sound character little of the brightness that you should expect from the 12-53 bronze wounds that were on it. If he does decide upon that particular model then for certain trying out several might be a very good idea cause you never know until you actually play them acoustically without the pick first if they are worth having.

I disagree on the idea that sound of the guitar will not influence his motivation to play and learn. If he is trying to play and sing at the same time this would indicate that the sounds he is making from the guitar are causing him to express himself as a player. Especially if he whistles, hums or tries otherwise to make a musical phrase while finding it under his fingers on the guitar. Regardless if he learns tab or notation or just learns by ear.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Eric Reesor said:


> I just had a boo at the Epiphone acoustic electric at a local L&M that you referred to early on in the thread, @allthumbs56. The one that was there was decently balanced in acoustic sound but not very inspiring as far as overall sound character little of the brightness that you should expect from the 12-53 bronze wounds that were on it. If he does decide upon that particular model then for certain trying out several might be a very good idea cause you never know until you actually play them acoustically without the pick first if they are worth having.
> 
> I disagree on the idea that sound of the guitar will not influence his motivation to play and learn. If he is trying to play and sing at the same time this would indicate that the sounds he is making from the guitar are causing him to express himself as a player. Especially if he whistles, hums or tries otherwise to make a musical phrase while finding it under his fingers on the guitar. Regardless if he learns tab or notation or just learns by ear.


The Epiphone I tried was pretty - but was uninspiring. For the money I was drawn to the Yamaha - it really rewarded your input nicely. We'll see where it goes.

BTW my daughter is in Victoria. Say "hi" for me if you see her


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

MarkM said:


> What about a S&P parlour guitar, nice and small and they sound pretty good?


He has a 3/4 now and wants a dread. If he wanted a smaller guitar I'd give him my GS-mini without thinking


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## FlyingFred (Sep 29, 2019)

GSMini or Big Baby any day. These are tremendous instruments for the price.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

allthumbs56 said:


> For the money I was drawn to the Yamaha


I was hoping Yamaha acoustics would eventually surface as a reasonable consideration. Admittedly, I'm biased.


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## Eric Reesor (Jan 26, 2020)

allthumbs56 said:


> He has a 3/4 now and wants a dread. If he wanted a smaller guitar I'd give him my GS-mini without thinking


As greco has said the Yamaha would most likely be a better choice for a consistent decent sound. I truly hope that if he does get a dreadnought that he is not disappointed trying to navigate on it! An OM size with a cutaway with a scale length of no more than 24.5" would suit him much better unless he is exceptionally tall and has long arms for his age. The reason I recommended a twelve fret guitar is because they can have a more balanced sound that most full skinny neck dreadnoughts that usually do not have a balance of sound until you get way up in price.

Cheaper dreadnoughts tend to be boomy in the bass because of where the bridge and bracing is located. Whereas a mid sized body O sized guitar with twelve frets to the body seems to always balance the sound much better even if it has a cutaway. This is because the bridge and bracing is further away from the sound hole and the cavity resonance of the guitar is more close to what the great builder Antonio de Torres used to make guitars as loud and balanced as possible. But to each there own the boomy sound of a dreadnought strumming away at chords has a place behind other instruments and singers.

If his primary interest is in only strumming chords and solo notes with a pick then a skinny neck Yamaha full sized dreadnought with a cutaway is most likely going to be the best choice. If he does want to learn to play fingerstyle then a long scale dreadnought with a skinny neck is the worst choice possible. IMO


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

Yamaha stuff is boring but satisfying and consistent

If he plays it a lot he'll wear some personality into it over time

j


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## Old beginner (Jan 22, 2020)

allthumbs56 said:


> As the title states, my son just called and said my grandson is looking for a new acoustic to replace the 3/4 he currently owns and has outgrown. Eletronics preferred. They're looking at new and apparently he's seen an Epiphone that he liked at L&M. 400 bucks is not a lot - but things keep getting better.
> 
> Anybody else been shopping for something similar and have any advice?



You might be able to get a bottom of the line Fender for around that price.

But, keep in mind, you get what you pay for.....


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