# Acoustic guitar simulator



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Anyone ever used one that actually sounds like an acoustic guitar?


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2016)

Nope. 

I've run piezoelectric pickups on an electric through impulse response captures of acoustic guitars and it starts to get close. But we're talking $1500+ in money to do this (an AX8 or Helix at the minimum). Plus an electric with a piezo bridge.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

No, but lots of folks will likely tell you otherwise. Some emulators might be passable enough for stage use but they won't fool you for recording. Maybe I'm fussy, but my digital piano sounds WAY more acoustic than any acoustic guitar simulator I've heard...I have no idea of the technology involved so I'm no help there. Nothing beats the real thing.

Peace, Mooh.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

You know how some McDonalds have real plants at eye level and fake ones higher up, so that the fake ones seem real? Or the way that bean curd can seem for all the world like shredded chicken IF there is some actual shredded chicken in the stir fry?

Well, simulated acoustic guitar can sound sorta like an acoustic, if strummed like an acoustic. That is, you provide all the other trappings and contextual cues, and it sounds like an acoustic. The same guitar and processor, if picked the way you'd pick an electric, will NOT result in anyone going "Hey, what's an acoustic guitar doing in there?".

FWIW, I designed an acoustic simulator in 2003 that got pirated by the Biyang company http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=112.0 Not a staggering design, but for what it involved, it did a credible job. Probably needed a noise gate, though. Check the similarity between the font I used, and what they put on their pedal:


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Piezo + acoustic sim pedal (fishman etc.) = accurate acoustic tones. Simulator pedals like the boss AC-2 sound nothing like it.

That being said, if you wanted a very unique clean tone an AC-2 would get you there!


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

If you are just going to do some basic strumming (not melody lines or individual notes) and it's in a full band situation with others playing along then a really, really, REALLY good simulator (read very expensive) might almost get you close enough that it will be passable. Almost. If you're all on your own then nothing will work. Period. Don't even think about it. Pedal companies continue to try because there is a demand for it. Lots of people wish there was such a thing but the truth is there very likely never will be a conventional pedal-type simulator that's good enough to make a solid body electric sound like a real acoustic guitar. There's good reason for that. A solid body guitar simply does not have the same string dynamics. First, it's a solid body. That's a no brainer. You ain't getting squat from that arrangement in terms of acoustic tone. Second, you're not using heavy bronze wound strings, you're using light nickel wound strings. Totally different animals. Lastly, magnetic pickups send even a real acoustic guitar in a direction that makes it sound a little like an electric guitar. Ever try a Markley Pro-Mag? It does amplify an acoustic guitar but not without sounding exactly like what it is, which is a magnetic pickup. It's a losing battle all around. There won't be much success either until a company decides to take a synthesizer route whereby they use the guitar only as a trigger and the entirety of the sound is generated by the unit, likely using samples. Think of an electric piano. The keyboard is just a trigger. There are no strings. There is no actual signal to modify. Tech21 made the B9 that way. The B9 is an organ simulator but it doesn't modify the guitar's signal. It generates its own signal and uses the guitar only as a trigger mechanism. It will allow some of the actual guitar signal to pass through but only as an unprocessed signal. When they start doing that for acoustic sims then we might start seeing some headway being made. The key there is processing speed and latency issues. For hardware powerful enough to pull that off it won't come cheap, if it comes at all.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Generally sensible, but a few minor corrections:
1) The B9 is an EHX pdal not Tech21. tech21 makes some decent pedals, but let's nip this one in the bud before someone goes marching into a store, asks for a Tech21 B9 and get blank stares from staff.
2) Yes, many electronic keyboards DO simply serve as "triggers". But a helluva lot actually generate sound mechanically, which is then sensed by a pickup. The Fender Rhodes, Wurlitzer, and Lesage 'Bug" all had a keboard action that physically struck something. You could play them all acoustically, although you wouldn't get much volume.

3) For years, people said that an electronic simulation of a rotating speaker would simly never be possible. And while I'll admit that one needs stereo to get the swirly magic (an actual mic'd-up Leslie, heard in mono, just ain't the same, either), simulators have gotten awful good. I have a little Vibratone cab, and the simulators come very, very close these days. The key thing is developers paying attention to what's "missing" that makes somethng _*not*_ sound like "the real thing". Figure out what's different, and figure out how to provide it, and you're halfway there. T'was ever thus.

4) For my own design, I stole some of the circuitry from an "exciter" pedal design, and combined it with a low-pass filter to boost the bass. The lowpass inverted the signal, such that the more lows you mix in, the more it cancels the mids it overlaps with. Combined attenuated mids, and accentuated lows and harmincally-enhanced highs, and that brings part of the way there.

5) I think you make some strong and valid arguments about the dynamics of acoustic guitars, compared to electrics, and the different in both string gauge and timbral quality of bronze vs nickel striings. It's also worth noting that playing through an acoustic simulator into a guitar amp with 10's or 12's that roll off sharply above 6khz is not going to come anywhere near with an acoustic instrument sounds like unamplified. I have a Parker with a piezo bridge, and quite honestly, listening to the piezo on its own through a guitar amp just sounds like an electric with the treble turned up.

So the hurdle is to not only shape the timbre, but enhance the dynamics, and use a wider-bandwidth speaker system. I have a Behringer clone of the AC-2, and it is unfortunately very hissy. FWIW, I find a great many piezo-equipped acoustics don't sound very much like acoustics, either.

Finally, I think it is worth remembering that acoustics depend on the peculiarities of the body size/shape, bracing, wood, and where the neck joins the body (12-frets sound different than 14-frets). So, even an excellent acoustic simulator may not sound like the acoustic you have in your mind.


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## Slooky (Feb 3, 2015)

Boss GP-10 The models include various acoustic guitars=Gibsons Martins,Guild.........Electrics. Strats, Teles,Rickenbacker, humbucking pickups, hollow bodies, dobros, a banjo, and even an electric sitar. You can change tunings at will, and add a tunable 12–string version to any guitar model. Classical guitars. Even some Pat Metheny sounds. Roger Mcguinn Sound along with various effects. I just love this unit. But you would have to install a GK3 pickup to your guitar


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

One of the best I've heard live was Steve Howe with his Variax. Wonder if Milkman uses an acoustic patch on his and what he thinks of it.

If EH does an A9, I would be interested. Pretty interesting stuff happening with that x9 stuff (I'm actively resisting the Mel9 right now....).


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Slooky said:


> Boss GP-10 The models include various acoustic guitars=Gibsons Martins,Guild.........Electrics. Strats, Teles,Rickenbacker, humbucking pickups, hollow bodies, dobros, a banjo, and even an electric sitar. You can change tunings at will, and add a tunable 12–string version to any guitar model. Classical guitars. Even some Pat Metheny sounds. Roger Mcguinn Sound along with various effects. I just love this unit. But you would have to install a GK3 pickup to your guitar


Slick unit but you are looking at $600 there. Way out of the range of what I was looking for


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## Cups (Jan 5, 2010)

Sell a few pieces and buy the GP-10. 
It's a game changer.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Cups said:


> Sell a few pieces and buy the GP-10.
> It's a game changer.


It requires a GK pickup as well so add another $300? Expensive option for sure


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

Nothing comes close, imo. But, I self-identify as an acoustic guitar snob and get to play the near-the-top tier of instruments daily. Comfort, touch and immediate tactile response are extremely important to me. A responsive acoustic instrument will allow a nuanced performance and the development of overtones that will likely never be achieved from a stringed plank feeding into a chip driving an A/D converter controlled by a microprocessor...

Hi. I am Ron and I am an Acoustic Guitar Snob.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

I've never heard a convincing sim if the source material is the mag pickups. I'm with *Budda*. Piezo bridge combined with a decent sim will get you there. I used a ghost bridge with the acoustic sim in the RP1000 and it blew most people away as far as a convincing acoustic sound coming from an electric guitar in a live environment.

The next level would be a piezo bridge through an IR as *iaresee* mentioned. Although, you don't have to spend nearly as much as he's suggesting. There are IR loadable pedals that start around $200 US. You don't need an AX8 or Helix.

Top level would be a Variax IMO.

In ALL cases, you need to go through a FRFR speaker system and not use a traditional guitar cab. No convincing acoustic sound will ever come out of a standard guitar amp.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

ronmac said:


> Nothing comes close, imo. But, I self-identify as an acoustic guitar snob and get to play the near-the-top tier of instruments daily. Comfort, touch and immediate tactile response are extremely important to me. A responsive acoustic instrument will allow a nuanced performance and the development of overtones that will likely never be achieved from a stringed plank feeding into a chip driving an A/D converter controlled by a microprocessor...
> 
> Hi. I am Ron and I am an Acoustic Guitar Snob.


(Are you in the program, Ron?)

I agree.

Though it can come close, even a good microphone in front of a good acoustic into a good PA can't capture everything, ie, nothing can match unamplified acoustic sound. It's kind of amusing to read posts about making electrics sound acoustic when the players of fine acoustics themselves go on endlessly about getting a real amplified or recorded tone. I'm always listening and hoping something comes along that's as good, but so far nothing beats a good condenser mic in front of a good acoustic guitar for amplified or recorded tone. It's not always convenient, but I'm more interested in sound than convenience. 

In less than perfect situations I've plugged in (K&K pickup) for a safety net threshold level, mic-ed for additional tone and dynamics, and let the sound person get a balance. Wind noise and mic bleed can be a pain, but at least it still sounds acoustic.

In the absence of good acoustic tone I'd still rather hear a good clean electric tone than a lousy synthetic sounding mock acoustic tone, snob that I am.

Peace, Mooh.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

The acoustic sound most likely identified as "right" in most band situations is that of a Takamine via a DI to the FOH mixer. Almost impossible to screw up, sounds way more "acoustic" than a simulator pedal or modeler and can be had used for about the same money everyone here is putting on the table. There's a reason you see them used in a high energy context by Bruce Springsteen, et. al, and would be my first choice if I was playing in the weekend bar scene.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

ronmac said:


> The acoustic sound most likely identified as "right" in most band situations is that of a Takamine via a DI to the FOH mixer. Almost impossible to screw up, sounds way more "acoustic" than a simulator pedal or modeler and can be had used for about the same money everyone here is putting on the table.


I guess this is where we enter the realm of opinions. My goal when I want an "acoustic" sound is that I want the sound of a mic'd acoustic. An acoustic-electric via DI to the FOH mixer sounds nothing like a mic'd acoustic guitar. I used to own a Tak and did the comparison myself. Plug a Tak into a DI box, then record the direct signal. Compare that sound to the sound of any of the other suggestions in this thread. I'd take any of the other solutions any day of the week.


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## ronmac (Sep 22, 2006)

The Tak solution is not my idea of an ideal acoustic sound. Far from it. I offered that it was a possible solution to getting an "acoustic" sound in a situation where you could never use a mic on a high quality acoustic instrument.


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## Cups (Jan 5, 2010)

A GP-10 with the GK-3 will be a little more than 600$
It does take a fair bit of tweaking too but I'm more than happy with it. 

I'm not looking for perfection. The only thing that sounds like an acoustic is an acoustic. Even an acoustic plugged in sounds compromised.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

Certainly my bad citing Tech21 as the maker of the B9.
I should have simply looked at my B9 before typing that.
D'Oh!!



Cups said:


> Even an acoustic plugged in sounds compromised.


I'm not sure I agree with that. Maybe plugging an acoustic into an electric guitar amp, perhaps but with a decent acoustic amp and decent electronics in the guitar there's usually enough flexibility to get you where you need to be.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

BMW-KTM said:


> Certainly my bad citing Tech21 as the maker of the B9.
> I should have simply looked at my B9 before typing that.
> D'Oh!!


No problem.


> I'm not sure I agree with that. Maybe plugging an acoustic into an electric guitar amp, perhaps but with a decent acoustic amp and decent electronics in the guitar there's usually enough flexibility to get you where you need to be.


Agree. The focus of the reproduction system has to be flat frequency response and authentic reproduction of the input signal. Electric guitar amplifiers aim for desired coloration, rather than authentic reproduction. Heck, even amps like a Twin, that are prized for being able to remain clean even at high volumes, have midscoops built into them, in anticipation of what it takes to make an electric sound good.


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

jbealsmusic said:


> The next level would be a piezo bridge through an IR as *iaresee* mentioned. Although, you don't have to spend nearly as much as he's suggesting. There are IR loadable pedals that start around $200 US. You don't need an AX8 or Helix.


I totally forget about things like the Lodigy. Good call! Affordable, too.



> Top level would be a Variax IMO.


Oh. Yup.



> In ALL cases, you need to go through a FRFR speaker system and not use a traditional guitar cab. No convincing acoustic sound will ever come out of a standard guitar amp.


+1000


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## Guest (Apr 12, 2016)

mhammer said:


> FWIW, I designed an acoustic simulator in 2003 that got pirated by the Biyang company


Got me wondering how many of your designs have been lifted over the years, Mark. The archives at DIYStompboxes.com community alone are probably an unscrupulous manufacturers wet dream.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

But there's reciprocity, Ian. Plenty of boteekers have posted things on the forum for the rest of us to make, that _could_ have been commercial products, and in some cases _were_ commercial products (Dave Barber has historically been very good about that). I was never that bugged by what happened in my case; especially since I swiped some of what Jules Ryckebusch had done for the "Harmonic Sweetener" in Electronic Musician, and since it wasn't a high-demand circuit/product, and the design is really the easiest part of the whole thing. When I noticed that Guitar Fetish was carrying what looked like rebranded Biyang pedals, I popped a note to them, and Jay Abend responded, noting that the same thing had happened to them. He gave me his word he would not carry that pedal, and has kept his promise.

As for manufacturers plundering the archives, even if they do, I can't imagine any of them are driving their new Lambo home to their mansion on the backs of yet-another-fuzzbox from a form member.

There was the classic case of the kid from Pembroke who was 17 or so, when he whipped up the briefly legendary "Creamy Dreamer", based on suggestions from forum members, and then pitched it as his brilliant invention and innovation without giving even vague general credit to the forum. He never "invented" another pedal and went on to work for a software company. The lack of credit bugged many, but I think that irritation has long since passed and people realized that there was no great fortune "stolen" from them by a cheater.


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## Slooky (Feb 3, 2015)

Cups said:


> Sell a few pieces and buy the GP-10.
> It's a game changer.


It certainly is!! You could also sell a few guitars because you have a whole rack of guitars to choose from! Check out these nylon string models


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## amagras (Apr 22, 2015)

Piezo is the only way I know. I've got decent results with a Variax and 11+ strings although I've heard that Parker have better sound. Piezo + ac Sim sounds like something I should try too.


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