# i hate RBC



## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i have an account at RBC. last week i deposited my first paycheck in 2 months into their automatic teller. then i learned i couldn't touch any of it. friday comes, that's my day off. i go into the bank and they say that because i put it in the machine it takes 5 working days to process. i was a little ticked off, but whatever. well, today i should have access to my $$ but i don't. 
i have an entire paycheck in the bank, and one uncashed in my pocket, but i can't go across the street and buy a frickin pack of gum. my wife uses the automatic teller every week and it allows her to immediately make a single withdrawl for $500. i don't understand this, but i'm looking for a new bank on friday. any suggestions out there? i just want access to my money and no excuses.


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

cheezyridr said:


> i have an account at RBC. last week i deposited my first paycheck in 2 months into their automatic teller. then i learned i couldn't touch any of it. friday comes, that's my day off. i go into the bank and they say that because i put it in the machine it takes 5 working days to process. i was a little ticked off, but whatever. well, today i should have access to my $$ but i don't.
> i have an entire paycheck in the bank, and one uncashed in my pocket, but i can't go across the street and buy a frickin pack of gum. my wife uses the automatic teller every week and it allows her to immediately make a single withdrawl for $500. i don't understand this, but i'm looking for a new bank on friday. any suggestions out there? i just want access to my money and no excuses.


My suggestion is to keep your money under your matress, the banks are all thiefs and the fees keep going up and up. I had them charge me $100 for something called a "night deposit fee" only problem is, I dont do night deposits, never have. I am still waiting for them to explain that to me.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

RBC in Ancaster Ontario. The last RBC I ever dealt with. I wanted to open a saving account for my new born child, so they did a financial review. The manager then had to inform my wife and I that our annual income was below what they recommend for dealing with them and declined to open us an account.

CIBC is just as bad if not worse. They converted an overdraft to a loan and then sent that to a collections agency and sent my student load to delinquency to the government ... on one months missed payment.

I deal with TD but would rather be with a credit union I think. I have TOO much debt to TD to move though.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

I suggest you go in and talk to them before switching. Tell them why you're upset and that you are willing to switch banks today if they don't fix this issue. It's simply a couple of clicks for them to give you the same privilege your wife has (i.e., immediate withdrawal of 500 bucks.) It all depends on your credit rating though - believe it or not, they may not trust you enough to give you that much leeway. I have a TD account that only allows me to take 200 dollars out, shared with my wife, who can take 500. And I've paid all the bills for the last 4 years!


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

My credit rating is over 700 and I sat with my personal CIBC rep and listened to him basically scream at some woman from CIBC Visa telling them to lower my interest rate as I apparently deserved a lower rate, they would not do it for him (or me) and that was CIBC talking to CIBC. It was not like I was asking them to do it. Right now they are so tight on credit and loans that it is pathetic. Will be years before they loosen up again. So when you see things like what you are going through, it is more often than not that they will not easily reverse it. They don't trust anyone anymore.


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## dodgechargerfan (Mar 22, 2006)

RBC lost me when they locked my account because there was an unpaid fee. 
There was money in the account to cover it. 
The lock caused some bills to go unpaid. 
When I went in to talk to them they discovered the problem and unlocked my account. 
I asked them what the fee was for and not even the branch manager could explain it. 
I closed my account right then and there. 

I've been with TD - actually it was CanadaTrust at the start - ever since. 
No real problems but no real love either. 
I do have some business with Scotia and the people in that branch are great. I've thought more than once about moving everything to Scotia.


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## Metal#J# (Jan 1, 2007)

I'm with rbc and hate them too. 1: They refuse to get an iPhone app when CIBC and TD have had them for 1yr +. 2: they're hours suck. Scotia is plagued with service charges for everything including $5 for an account history printout. TD was good to me for a lot of years but last year they sold my home for peanuts in a shit market rather than bridging me 6 months until my disability kicked in. Lost about 60k on that one.


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## puckhead (Sep 8, 2008)

I've been through most banks, and landed on RBC after all of it.
HSBC is the worst by far, in my experience. their systems do not sync up with anyone else, so simple things lie EMTs are a huge head-ache, or impossible.
The key to good service with banks is that you become a person to them, and not a number. Have an account manager that you can talk to, preferably someone who has been there for a while, and WILL be there for a while.


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

All banks are horrible.

We're had terrible experiences at CIBC. They were the worst for us. They messed up on a year's worth of payments for my wife when we first got married. They told us all year that everything was fine and then at the end of the year we found out that none of the payments had gone through. Even though they admitted the whole thing was their error (we made the payments, but due to a paperwork error made by them they somehow rejected them) they still penalised us and my wife has bad credit due to them to this day. We tried sorting it out for three months before giving up, after having gotten nowhere. 

But that's nothing compared to a place I lived in once (not in Canada). The town got a new bank manager who wanted to make a name for himself or something and foreclosed houses and farms all over. Something in the fine print of the mortgages allowed him to demand people pay the full amount of their loans within two weeks or lose the property. So all these old people who'd been steadily paying off their properties for 25 years and had nearly done it all lost everything.

I think the specific branch makes a difference, more than almost anything. If you get nice people then they make everything so much easier and more pleasant.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

The Bank Act allows banks to act any way they want by removing competition. Whenever big government gets into bed with big business, arbitrage profits ensue and the consumer pays thru the nose. Banks, oil & gas, power, telecomm, all great examples of big government and big business looking out for our best interests.............


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Hmm

In the days of regulated banking, none of out banks were financially hurting and I got paid monthly interest. Today, banks are deregulated, making BILLIONS, and I pay about 50 dollars a month in service charges.

In the days of regulated natural gas, none of the providers were hurting. I paid about 30 dollars a month on equalized billing and that also covered my hot water tank. Today, with deregulated gas and divided assets, when I sold my home I was paying 150 dollars a month equalized billing for my gas and the company that took over the hot water tank had threatened to sue me for an failure to pay 1 dollar finally canceled my tank contract sent me to collections and put a black mark on my credit rating.

In the days of regulated telephone my phone bill had never been more than 20 dollars. I had two fees, the phone rental and long distance, and if I had a need for wiring of my phone, repair of my phone, or other service 611 would bring the phone company out to my home the next day to fix it. The result of the government deregulating the phone company, the last time I had a phone, I was paying 50 a month in 5 dollar chunks for "add ons" I was paying 60 something for this, another 20 something for something else, even a dollar a month for the privilege of calling 911!! TRY To call cops without 911 and it is a "privilege" to have!! ALL THIS before the fees for renting the phone and long distance!

Back in the days when HYDRO was owned by the government the only big butt head move on any governments behalf here in Ontario was Darlington. 18+ billion dollars of "d'oh" however, I was paying 90 a month on equalized billing, I had a phone number for service, I had a land office I paid my bill at. Following the sell off, my last bill was for 450 dollars, the remaining underpayment of 1700 was sent to a collections agency, and again, my credit rating was damaged and this was on about 7 months of usage.

They are indeed great examples of what happens when things are made "public", shall I offer to bend over some more, I'm sure there are places the wire brush has yet to make it to!


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

Mark P said:


> All banks are horrible.


Have you tried ATB? It's not an option for the OP, but Ontario must have something similar. For Albertans it's a good choice.

My biggest complaint with ATB is they contact me too often. My mortgage/general banking person there took an internal promotion and when her replacement started the new person phoned me up to introduce herself and ask if there was anything I needed. I also have an investment account with ATB and the guy who handles that likes to meet up face-to-face once or twice a year. I'm just not that personable and would rather do everything by email. Still, there are times when it's useful to deal with humans and be treated as a human. No other bank would give us a mortgage, including CIBC who I've had an account with for 25 years and Scotia who used to handle my investments. The people at ATB were willing to talk to us as people. If possible it's really worth looking into the smaller banks and credit unions.


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

kat_ said:


> Have you tried ATB? It's not an option for the OP, but Ontario must have something similar. For Albertans it's a good choice.


Hmm. I don't think so. Thanks for the recommendation.  I'm not that unhappy with my current bank, even though I have a general dislike of banks. If you get decent people at the counter that's the main part of the battle over in dealing with them and our current tellers and managers have been pretty decent to deal with.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

I've been with ATB for about 10 years now. This year, their service has gone WAY downhill and my fees are up slightly. RBC is my secondary bank, they've actually been very helpfull with good service. I have excellent credit and tons of cash flow going through ATB...my mortgage is up soon and they are seriously at risk of losing my business, which disappoints me greatly as for the previous 9 years they have been outstanding to deal with.

To the OP, I bet you wouldn't have this problem if you were on direct deposit from your employer.


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

And this is why I work with my credit union, they also have some rediculous fee's also, but at least they don't get me at every turn like the big banks do, and I have not had to bother with any KY Jelly since I left the big banks and besides we all know that canada is sitting on a big coal mine and when it comes to the big corporations we all know where we get it, in the A**.
Oh well its to bad but you need to establish a regular pay cheque to avoid those things or as someone else suggested direct deposit means that there is money ( real money ) from the sender and that avoids the 5 day wait from your bank also negotiate with them to clear the cheque as it is being depsoted to clear some funds so you don't run into this problem.Ship
Isn't it funny during this so calle dlast recession how the banks still reported hugh profits while everyone was laying off folks ( so did they, which mad e their profits even higher ) and our grandkids will ask whats a bank teller.Makes you wonder where it will stop, oh yeah now I remember at parliments door step.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i belong to a credit union back in the states, but i don't know of one around here. i'll have to look into that. the one i am with back in delaware is pretty awesome.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

It's not the banks. It's the people who work in them. Sometimes you get smart responsive considerate people handling your account/money, and as MarkP notes, sometimes you get dicks. Personally, I've never run into anything or anyone at either RBC or CIBC that I'd complain about. They've always been eager to help, careful to explain, and willing to back off when I said no. I still miss the days when they paid interest and didn't offload the investment responsibilities to clients.


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## dodgechargerfan (Mar 22, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> i belong to a credit union back in the states, but i don't know of one around here. i'll have to look into that. the one i am with back in delaware is pretty awesome.


There's lots here in Ontario. 
FirstOntario jumps to mind right away. 
I think DesJardans (sp?) is still a CU. 
Meridian is another (but they're owned by RBC)


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## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

puckhead said:


> *The key to good service with banks is that you become a person to them, and not a number. Have an account manager that you can talk to, preferably someone who has been there for a while, and WILL be there for a while*.


This is the best advice given so far.


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

Swervin55 said:


> This is the best advice given so far.


Except that banks have very strong policies about rotating account managers from branch to branch, as a method of internal fraud protection. It does happen that there are long term stable account managers, but they would be the exception not the rule.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Ugh, I'm sitting here reading this trying to decide if it's a good idea to wade into this topic. 

Here it is: I worked for RBC. I did years in both customer service, and personal lending.
*
Here's what you don't want to hear (and you're not going to like it)*: It is my experience dealing with thousands of clients that most, and by that I mean about 95%, problems with your bank can be prevented by READING the documentation they give you. ALL of it is spelled out in the account agreements, cardholder agreements, and even loan agreements. Why will reading these solve your problems? Because then you'd understand what you can and can't do, and what the bank can and can't do.

The OP's problem with the hold? It would have been communicated to him when he opened his account (either that or he did something to have his ATM limits set to what they are now). RBC only puts the 5-day clearing hold on either new clients or clients who have misused their ATM privileges. Simple as that. I know what you're going to say, "Well, I opened this account X years ago!" Maybe, but have you asked them for higher ATM limits recently?

Most often though, I found that clients were told verbally AND provided documentation, yet it goes in one ear and out the other. I call that "selective listening". They hear the parts they want, and then tune out the rest, and then at a later time, fill in the blanks with assumptions about how they think it "should" be - and usually this is where there's a problem. The client assumed that X should have happened, but instead Y happened. Do you know how many times I had a client tell me their version of how the bank/their accounts/the ATM system/direct deposit/cheque clearing/NSF payments/business days/cutoff times/etc, ALL work (according to how they've reasoned it out in their head). 

Now, in about 5% of complaints, something that was not the client's fault happened. In those cases, the bank would investigate, and usually fix the error and reverse any associated charges. There were even times where apology letters and gifts were issued where the error was particularly grievous. I've seen it done.

Basically, all the major banks are the same. They'll offer you pretty similar services for pretty similar prices. If you like "personal" service where you're not a "number" then move your stuff to a Credit Union. As many times as I would hear "**** you, RBC! I'm closing all my accounts!" I would hear just as many people say "OMG, wow! You guys are great! I was getting so screwed at BMO/TD/Scotia/CIBC/Credit Union. I'm moving all my business to RBC!" Seriously, it's just a big circle. Just read your stuff, understand how what you have actually works, and you can avoid the hassle of moving your stuff around because in the end it makes no difference.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i opened the acct in june, so it's new by most standards. as for them telling me when i opened the acct, maybe they did.
i cant say that they didn't. at the same time they were also trying to sell me on a c.c. and a host of other things, as well as explaining to me the different accounts and what they cost, etc. on top of that i just got landed after 4 yrs, just got a job, just applied for my health card, and a ton of other stuff, so for me there was an overload of information. i can only process so much before some of it spills over the top of the dam, know what i mean? hahahaha.


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

cheezyridr said:


> i opened the acct in june, so it's new by most standards.


That's probably the source of the problem then. It's pretty common for banks to be extremely tight with new customers, in which case changing banks probably won't help. I think most get better after 6 months. Maybe wait a month or two then try asking for more reasonable holds.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I use President's Choice Financial. I do almost everything online. When I deposit a cheque they allow me $3000.00 of it right away but it was only $1000.00 when I first opened my account years ago. Everything there is free plus you do get a few points by paying your bills online. I just find it easy and handy, like duct tape.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

cheezyridr said:


> i opened the acct in june, so it's new by most standards. as for them telling me when i opened the acct, maybe they did.
> i cant say that they didn't. at the same time they were also trying to sell me on a c.c. and a host of other things, as well as explaining to me the different accounts and what they cost, etc. on top of that i just got landed after 4 yrs, just got a job, just applied for my health card, and a ton of other stuff, so for me there was an overload of information. i can only process so much before some of it spills over the top of the dam, know what i mean? hahahaha.


There's your answer right there. It is standard policy for many banks these days to have very restrictive ATM limits for new clients. This is especially true where there is no other relationship beyond the bank account. Usually it's about a 6-month to 1-year period before they will change your limits to something where you have instant access (but you have to ask them to change it). Why do they do this? Well, simply put, they don't know you, and if you have no other business with them, they have no reason to go out of their way to trust you. Now, if you did happen to opt for the credit card, or brought in say, an investment, to them as well, then they'd probably give you easier ATM access right away.

I didn't mean to rant on you specifically. I've just heard the same things over and over again, and it was almost always an issue of information - either not conveyed or not absorbed. And don't get me wrong, you do get bad employees who do a bad job sometimes - but you run into that in every business - be it the bank, the grocery store, the music store, the government, etc, etc. Sometimes it takes that one run in with the bad apply to lose a person's business forever.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I think PTM makes some excellent, and obviously well-informed, points. Things ARE spelled out. But then again, they are also spelled out if one applies for EI, or fills out their taxes, and that doesn't stop people from being caught in a vast network of clauses and qualifications that are unfathomable to them.

And herein lies the dilemma. Banking has gotten unpleasantly complex these days, and very likely exceeds the amount of detail that most folks are willing to pay attention to, or can even manage if they do pay attention. Personally, I do not think it is deliberately complex in order to obfuscate and confuse, and take advantage of customers. But as I am all too fond of saying, when transparency gets up from the table and walks away, fear, loathing, and paranoid conspiracy theories are more than willing to take its seat.

And just to echo PTM's comment in an entirely different arena, when I used to teach undergrad, I would often get students who were floundering, and would come to see me i distress. A frequent strategy was to explain that perhaps it was a disjunction between what the student needed to hear, and how their particular text explained things, so I'd loan the student a different text. Since these were primarily introductory "service" courses, most overview texts had essentially interchangeable content, just presented a slightly different way, with different illustrations, phrasing, and maybe glossaries with a slight twist in their entries. It didn't matter what I would loan the student, lousy or outstanding text, they always came back glowing about how fabulous the "other" book was, and how it had cleared everything up for them.

Not every explanation is tuned to every learner/client, and as the information to convey becomes more and more complex, that gap between what the organization needs to convey to produce a satisfied client, and what the client needs to hear (and especially how to convey it) in order to _fully_ understand their relationship with the organization, becomes an ever-larger source of risk. IMO, there is some blame to spread around to both client and organization. The client *does* need to pay attention, but the organization can't simply declare "Well, I _*told*_ them", and assume the job is done. 

Transparency attempted is not transparency achieved. And while I can usually rely on teams of economists and lawyers to attempt it, I can't always rely on them to achieve it, unless maybe dealing with other economists and lawyers.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

mhammer makes some great points as well.

I know there's always a tendency to hate banks, but the fact is, these days banks have longer branch hours than they ever did in the past. Many offer at least one evening a week and most are expanding weekend hours to more branches as well. Good luck finding a bank that was open past 4pm or a Saturday 25 years ago. ATM access allows us to do banking literally 24/7. Not to mention 24/7 call centers with live agents and fully featured internet banking. 
I also find it fascinating that people will gripe about being "just a number" or the lack of personal service, yet I've gone into my branch to do some banking and there were 4 people lined up to use the ATM, yet maybe 20 feet away (and within eyeshot) sat 3 open tellers with no customers and no lineup. I walked right up to a teller, did my banking, and walked out past a few of the same people still waiting at the ATM.

As for the transparency aspect. I agree to a point, yet I do believe in the phrase, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink." In my government role where I took in applications, when I informed the applicant that he hadn't fully completed the form as he was missing a vital part of the information and would have to come back again, he snidely remarked, "Well, I wish I was TOLD this." To which I replied, "Actually it says so right here in the instructions, and again right here on the form, and again here in another spot. So, we actually DO tell you three times here, so I'm not sure how else this could have been communicated to you." Normally, I would not be so flippant, but when you hear these kinds of things day in and day out for years, you do finally start to get tired of it (which is why I finally found a job were I no longer deal with the public directly). If there was a problem with the form, and there were MANY consistent complaints, then no, that's not Joe Public's fault. But, when the problem is you simply didn't bother to look at it, well, that's you, not the system.

I could also use the example of the once a year time when the bank reviews and makes some adjustments to service fees (usually around May). If there are any fee changes to accounts, clients are notified by mail, using an insert with their monthly statement, there are broadcast messages on the internet banking, and there are signs posted over 30 days in advance at all the ATM machines. Yet still, the angry calls would come after the new fees became effective: "I WASN'T INFORMED!", "NO ONE TOLD ME!", "HOW DARE YOU..." When we'd explain about the statement inserts, "Well, I don't open my statements." Ok, so you don't open your mail and that's our fault? I could go on all day.

Here's a tip though: Many banks offer "relationship discounts." This means the more business you have with them, the more willing they become to offer you better rates and discounts on services. For example, with RBC, if you have a mortgage, a Visa, and an investment with them, then they will give you unlimited free transactions on one of your accounts. It can also factor into loan rates. Lots of other banks do this kind of thing too. If you have an chequing account at bank A, and a savings account at bank B, and a loan at bank C, and your credit card at bank D, and your mortgage at bank E, and then you wonder why you're not getting the best service or rates from any of them, well the relationship aspect is probably why.

And don't kid yourselves. Banks are not non-profit agencies, and they are not the government. They are publicly traded corporations. They are businesses. Like any business, their goal is to make money for their shareholders. Banking is not free, nor do I think it should be. Do I expect the grocery store to sell me food at cost? No. Some people say, "Well, the bank made billions on investment and credit markets, why should I pay service charges on my account?" Again, do I expect the grocery store to give me free produce because they made lots of profit in the meat section? However, you can minimize the costs of your banking simply by paying attention to your accounts, usage habits, and taking advantage of relationship discounts.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

My job involves extracting information from government managers and employees about hiring practices via surveys. Because only some of it falls under our mandate, and we're not interested in wasting people's time, I have to regularly provide instructions to guide what people tell us. I am constantly under pressure to shrink those instructions because "_people won't read that_". (Having repurchased a copy of Strunk & White this past weekend, I hope to bypass that criticism by being as concise as is humanly possible.).

But I understand the critique. However, at a certain point, when things are complicated enough, there is no way to make the instructions any simpler without withholding needed information. Conversely, when the directive is to fit everything on one page because "_people won't read anything more than a page_", there are limits to how much you can actually tell them, or how clearly it can be conveyed. And this is before the lawyers and policy people get their mitts on it.

So, although I am also resigned to how easily one can persuade the equine to drink when the opportunity is afforded them, it bears noting that handing them a shovel, pointing to a dusty field, and saying "There's a subterranean spring 50ft down" is rarely perceived as a drinking opportunity by all but the most diligent.

Contemporary regulations for just about anything having to do with money can be ridiculously complex, in an effort to thread several needles such that the customer is not taken advantage of while permitting the company to make money through legitimate service delivered via cost-effective and sustainable means. Can you make it as simple and straightforward as a STOP sign, or "We have 4 seats per plane that are on sale, and when they are sold there are no more"? Increasingly, no.

And therein lies the problem. The burden to read the contract IS fundamentally on the client, but companies have to be realistic in their expectations of what the average customer (especially one that lives in the Twitter/texting world of acronyms instead of sentences) can consume and digest. And if the "information meal" is simply too big for the average customer to swallow, then you have to forego that money-making opportunity and pursue those where the relationship with the customer can be more straightforward, transparent, and amenable to earning and maintaining trust.


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## Jaggery (Mar 12, 2006)

I have accounts with RBC. 
Sometime back I withdrew $100 cash from a TD machine.
It charged me $1.5 extra. No problems there.
Later I found out 2 charges of $1.5 in my account.
RBC tells me I get charged twice. Thats the rule.

Complete nonsense.

?


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

I love banking agreements. They are all formulated by a team of 3000 lawyers and written in tiny little print. Yes we should feel sorry for the big corporation having such stoopid clients that dont give the agreements to their team of lawyers.............


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

"It is well that the people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning." -- Henry Ford

I think banking institutions, and the fractional reserve banking system which allows banks to create money out of thin air and then collect interest on it, are a plague on humanity... to put it mildly. 

having said that, the people who work in banks are just like everyone else. I have an account at the CIBC and my buisness account at RBC. The staff are very kind and helpful. But it actually costs $ to keep my money in those accounts - amazing. for our personal accounts I switched to Presidents Choice years ago and have saved thousands (including interest that I get at PC and points I can use to buy groceries) by banking there, and the customer service has been first rate in my experience. PC's bank accounts have no fees and actually pay interest.

now back to the conspiracy:

"By this means (fractional reserve banking) government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft." -- John Maynard Keynes

"The modern Banking system manufactures money out of nothing. The process is perhaps the most astounding piece of sleight of hand that was ever invented. -- MAJOR L .L. B. ANGUS:

"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create deposits, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create deposits".- SIR JOSIAH STAMP (President of the Bank of England in the 1920's, the second richest man in Britain)

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies."--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

bluesmostly said:


> having said that, the people who work in banks are just like everyone else. I have an account at the CIBC and my buisness account at RBC. The staff are very kind and helpful. But it actually costs $ to keep my money in those accounts - amazing. for our personal accounts I switched to Presidents Choice years ago and have saved thousands (including interest that I get at PC and points I can use to buy groceries) by banking there, and the customer service has been first rate in my experience. PC's bank accounts have no fees and actually pay interest.


And there you have it - an educated customer who found a way to get the most by paying the least for his needs.

Would you shop around for the best price on a new guitar?

Would you do your research before buying a car?

Apathy is your own worst enemy. 

I can't even count how many times I convinced a client to let me do a quick review of their accounts and ended up saving them hundreds per year in service charges. It's not magic - if they'd just have read their monthly statements they'd have seen the same info I looked at (and those aren't in legaleze either - they're just lists of what you actually did with your account). Just pay attention!


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Jaggery said:


> I have accounts with RBC.
> Sometime back I withdrew $100 cash from a TD machine.
> It charged me $1.5 extra. No problems there.
> Later I found out 2 charges of $1.5 in my account.
> ...


This happens at pretty much EVERY bank these days. It's not just RBC. You can actually thank those private label machines for starting that trend (I think "Lasercash" was the first). There's always been a $1.00 or $1.50 Interac charge when you use another bank's ATM machine. It was a fee that was partially charged by Interac for access and maintinence of their ATM network. See, another bank's ATM machine doesn't communicate directly with your own bank - that's where Interac comes in - they're a 3rd party that facillitates the transaction.

Anyway, there always was this access fee when you used another bank's ATM. What's NEW is that now the OTHER bank charges you a $1.50 (sometimes more) fee up front just for the convenience of using their machine. When the machine asks you "There is a $1.50 charge for this transaction. Do you wish to continue?" you are agreeing to their fee. The way that works is it adds $1.50 to the amount you withdraw, and then keeps the change. So, you take out $40, and it actually withdraws $41.50. It gives you two twenties and keeps the change. Then RBC (or whatever bank you use) still charges their $1.50 fee like they always have. Pretty much ALL banks are in on this now. So, it doesn't matter if you bank with RBC or not, if you use another bank's ATM machines, you're going to get dinged twice.

My advice would be:
a) Find an RBC machine.
b) If you have to use another bank ATM, at least make it worth your while and make a withdrawal large enough to cover you for a few days. Don't take $20 out on 30 separate occasions throughout one weekend and then wonder why you paid $90 in service fees (I've seen it).


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> Ugh, I'm sitting here reading this trying to decide if it's a good idea to wade into this topic.
> 
> Here it is: I worked for RBC. I did years in both customer service, and personal lending.
> *
> ...


What am I paying a bank for? Is it to have a place to store money? Not really. Is it for security? Partly, but not entirely; I could stick it in a safe at home, bolted to the floor in the basement, and that would be pretty much the same for me, especially considering where I live. I pay a bank for convenience. At least, that's the theory. When I go to my accountant to get my taxes done, she's not doing anything I can't do myself, but I pay her because I don't want to do it myself. I'd rather be doing other things. If I went to her and she told me that I need to read all the fine print and get it right next time I'd find another accountant right away. Banks put forth this completely untrue advertising of wanting to form relationships with their clients and look after us, but then when we go in it's all about, "Oh, you need to read all the fine print and get it right next time". What the heck am I paying for?


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

I have had better luck with RBC than I did with any other banks. CanadaTrust being the absolute worst when they were around. My girlfriend is still with TD, and she goes insane anytime she has to get assistance from them.

My only real complaint with RBC was mentioned earlier in the thread, they have no iPhone app. I like their services, and the service I have received from them though.



> The OP's problem with the hold? It would have been communicated to him when he opened his account (either that or he did something to have his ATM limits set to what they are now). RBC only puts the 5-day clearing hold on either new clients or clients who have misused their ATM privileges. Simple as that. I know what you're going to say, "Well, I opened this account X years ago!" Maybe, but have you asked them for higher ATM limits recently?


Ya, this was clearly stated when I opened new accounts with RBC. It wasn't hidden or buried in the agreement either.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Mark P said:


> What am I paying a bank for? Is it to have a place to store money? Not really. Is it for security? Partly, but not entirely; I could stick it in a safe at home, bolted to the floor in the basement, and that would be pretty much the same for me, especially considering where I live. I pay a bank for convenience. At least, that's the theory. When I go to my accountant to get my taxes done, she's not doing anything I can't do myself, but I pay her because I don't want to do it myself. I'd rather be doing other things. If I went to her and she told me that I need to read all the fine print and get it right next time I'd find another accountant right away. Banks put forth this completely untrue advertising of wanting to form relationships with their clients and look after us, but then when we go in it's all about, "Oh, you need to read all the fine print and get it right next time". What the heck am I paying for?


Banks, like any business, provide a service, and you are paying for that service. Simple as that. Operating and maintaining the infrastructure to facilitate your bank account is not free. The big difference with banks is that they can't hide their fees in the cost of a product, like retailers do. It's obvious when you pay a monthly fee for your account. It's not obvious how big a cut the grocer gets when you buy a 2L of pop. If you don't like it, there's no reason you can't switch to a no fee, no frills bank like PC Financial. Or, you can go the mattress method.

Honestly, you guys think banking in Canada is bad - you should try banking in the States and see what they have to put up with. We have it pretty good up here, I know. I've worked with people who handle clients from RBC Bank in the USA - their accounts, fees, and way of doing things boggles the mind. If Canadian banks tried to run things like their USA counterparts, there would be riots in the streets here.


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> Banks, like any business, provide a service, and you are paying for that service. Simple as that. Operating and maintaining the infrastructure to facilitate your bank account is not free.


Yeah, I get that. Unfortunately, there are really no alternatives to living in society these days and using a bank. So much is done electronically. That means that, to a large degree, we are forced into using banks, like it or not. As you said, we pay for a service. My point is exactly how much service should I expect? If we believe the glossy brochures handed to us upon opening our accounts we'd think that all we have to do is to trust the banks to do everything for us with a smile. Now, I'm not so naive as to believe _advertising_, but I am paying for _something_. I'd like some of that money to go towards people who patiently help me understand things that I don't have time to figure out. I'd like some of that money to go towards facilitating ease of use in every respect possible. Consider: if any sales-based business behaved likes banks and treated their customers the same way they'd be out of business very quickly. Banks and governments are the only institutions that can get away with it.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Banks arent like any other business. The government created the Bank Act in order to create a cartel. If all businesses were like banks, Canada would be like Dubai, but it aint...............


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

nkjanssen said:


> I bank at ATB (only here in Alberta). They're OK, but lately are frustrating me. They only allow me to withdraw $3k cash at any one time. Sometimes I need more than $3k cash for something. I do a small amount of banking with RBC and asked them the question last time I was in...
> 
> Me: Do you have a limit on how much cash I can take out?
> 
> ...


I went to CIBC to withdraw some cash last week (more than a few thousand) - what a party I started. The teller was shocked and started asking me why and what for... I told her it was none of her business. Then brought over her supervisor and I had the same kind of conversation with her: "What is it for? Why does it have to be in 20's etc... we have to fill out a report" 

It is your money, until you want to take it out that is. 

Did you hear about the movement in France, and a few other European countries, where the public is organizing a massive one day withdrawal of cash and closing of accounts, on dec 7 I think, in hopes of rocking the system and sending a message to the banks/gov. It will be interesting to see if it gets enough participation to make an impact and how it will play out if they do. stay tuned.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

bluesmostly said:


> I went to CIBC to withdraw some cash last week (more than a few thousand) - what a party I started. The teller was shocked and started asking me why and what for... I told her it was none of her business. Then brought over her supervisor and I had the same kind of conversation with her: "What is it for? Why does it have to be in 20's etc... we have to fill out a report"
> 
> It is your money, until you want to take it out that is.


They're just doing their jobs as the law requires them to. There were new laws enacted post-9/11 to do with large transactions that are unusual for the customer's usual usage habits. If you normally take out $200 at a time and you suddenly take out $5000 in small bills, they are required by law to ask some information and fill out a form. I don't remember if they send it to the RCMP or not. Anyway, it's the law, and they can incur some serious consequences if they don't follow it - and I mean they can come after the employees individually, not just fine the bank. They didn't say you couldn't have your money, they just had to follow certain procedures to complete due dilligence.

I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just telling you there's an explanation.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> Banks arent like any other business. The government created the Bank Act in order to create a cartel. If all businesses were like banks, Canada would be like Dubai, but it aint...............


They are publicly traded corporations. They are heavily regulated (there probably isn't an industry that is MORE regulated in Canada).


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Mark P said:


> Yeah, I get that. Unfortunately, there are really no alternatives to living in society these days and using a bank. So much is done electronically. That means that, to a large degree, we are forced into using banks, like it or not. As you said, we pay for a service. My point is exactly how much service should I expect? If we believe the glossy brochures handed to us upon opening our accounts we'd think that all we have to do is to trust the banks to do everything for us with a smile. Now, I'm not so naive as to believe _advertising_, but I am paying for _something_. I'd like some of that money to go towards people who patiently help me understand things that I don't have time to figure out. I'd like some of that money to go towards facilitating ease of use in every respect possible. Consider: if any sales-based business behaved likes banks and treated their customers the same way they'd be out of business very quickly. Banks and governments are the only institutions that can get away with it.


When I go to McDonalds, my burger doesn't look anything like it does in the pictures on the menu. When I drink a beer, there aren't hot women in bikinis all over the place either.

Funny though, in the year before I left, I saw RBC go through some significant changes to their policy and corporate philosophy toward their customers. They do pay attention to customer feedback. In fact, RBC became obsessed with it. There are industry wide "customer satisfaction surveys", and Scotiabank routinely was tops. RBC became VERY focussed on knocking Scotia off the top in that regard. So, they made huge changes and retrained literally every employee on the "new" way to do things. It really was "client first". Usually, they'd come out with things every year where it was just lip service and then we'd just keep doing things the same way, but this time it was serious. They empowered employees to reverse fees (up to a limit), submit ideas to change things based on client feedback... you name it. Basically, they'd figured out that they were good at getting the new customers in the front door, but they were losing existing customers out the back door. I don't know how well it has worked long term, or whether they stuck to it. but it was interesting while I was there.


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## Shark (Jun 10, 2010)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> When I go to McDonalds, my burger doesn't look anything like it does in the pictures on the menu. When I drink a beer, there aren't hot women in bikinis all over the place either.


True, true. 



Powdered Toast Man said:


> Funny though, in the year before I left, I saw RBC go through some significant changes to their policy and corporate philosophy toward their customers. They do pay attention to customer feedback. In fact, RBC became obsessed with it. There are industry wide "customer satisfaction surveys", and Scotiabank routinely was tops. RBC became VERY focussed on knocking Scotia off the top in that regard. So, they made huge changes and retrained literally every employee on the "new" way to do things. It really was "client first". Usually, they'd come out with things every year where it was just lip service and then we'd just keep doing things the same way, but this time it was serious. They empowered employees to reverse fees (up to a limit), submit ideas to change things based on client feedback... you name it. Basically, they'd figured out that they were good at getting the new customers in the front door, but they were losing existing customers out the back door. I don't know how well it has worked long term, or whether they stuck to it. but it was interesting while I was there.


Ok, you've motivated me to ask for things to be different at the bank when they annoy me. I'll see how it goes!


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> They are publicly traded corporations. They are heavily regulated (there probably isn't an industry that is MORE regulated in Canada).


Well thats not exactly a response to my comment, but yes they are publically traded and they are regulated. And everytime they screw around with those regulations and disclosures I have to waste days hearing about how this is good for the consumer, and not just another way of overcharging so they can get bigger bonuses. At least they give me a good lunch when they present their crap. If people actually understood how the markets work, they would cry. The name of the game is complexity with legalese to confuse the majority, and thats how the rich get richer...........


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> When I go to McDonalds, my burger doesn't look anything like it does in the pictures on the menu. When I drink a beer, there aren't hot women in bikinis all over the place either.


And because of competition you can go to alternatives instead, unlike banking.........


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Accept2 said:


> And because of competition you can go to alternatives instead, unlike banking.........


Burger King, McDonalds, KFC, Subway, Quiznos, Wendys, Tim Hortons...

RBC, CIBC, BMO, TDCT, SCOTIA, PC Financial, Credit Unions, Mattress...


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## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

My wife finally got fed up with PC Financial. Horrible service. They put a hold on a cash she deposited. They don't have tellers, so you can only deposit at a machine. They told her the cash would be held for a week.

What they DIDN'T tell her was that she would have to personally call and have them remove that hold at the end of the week.

Idiots.


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## synop7 (Feb 2, 2006)

***** rbc*

The RBC ****ed around with me that way
I deposited a handfull of checks in a teller but the were returned to me WITH FEES because they were post dated!

I called them and informed that all my RRSP would be transfered at once in my Caisse Populaire account 

I stated that because their shitty attitude they lost me for good

I sent back my Visa RBC card in small sharp pieces

Hit where it hurts: the money

Money talks, bullshit walks, so I walked away with my money

Imagine if only a few hundred of customer would act that way....


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

synop7 said:


> The RBC ****ed around with me that way
> I deposited a handfull of checks in a teller but the were returned to me WITH FEES because they were post dated!


What did you expect would happen? Were you expecting them to just cash the post dated cheques for you? Or to hold each one until the correct date?


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

kat_ said:


> What did you expect would happen? Were you expecting them to just cash the post dated cheques for you? Or to hold each one until the correct date?


Ya I mean, I am not a fan of big corporations either, but some of these critisms are a little off. Or at least aren't really just an "RBC issue". I mean, does anyone read their agreements or ask any questions? I don't think that deal with the post dated cheques is an RBC issue. Most banks do the same thing as far as I know.


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## synop7 (Feb 2, 2006)

*Reply to Kat*

Hi Kat

I did not need to cash the checks. Just to deposit them and wait till the due date.

But some idiot cancelled them and sent them back with fees!

I don't think I'm off with this topic

All I'm saying is that you are a customer and the they a big chunk of customers will walk away it'll rattle them.

Most of the time people are afraid or to sheeping (you also say chicken****) to act and protect their turf

Same with cellphone or cable.

But just to make a point, when a company goes the extra mile for me (as Dunlop once did for me) I will make sure everybody I know will know about it

As a customer you have the right to act and protect your self


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

synop7 said:


> Hi Kat
> 
> I did not need to cash the checks. Just to deposit them and wait till the due date.
> 
> ...


I can't argue with your points about acting and protecting yourself as a customer.

I'm not sure of the specifics in your case, but if someone hands you a post dated cheque, that is an agreement between you and that person that you won't cash the cheque until that date. Taking it to the bank and depositing it is in fact cashing it. The bank will not hold those cheques for you and deposit them when the dates come up. They won't deposit the money into your account now and then wait for each cheque date to come up to put it through and get their money back from the payer. If you take a handful of post dated cheques to the bank and deposit them, they all attempt to clear at once. If you have say, 5 cheques for $100 each, if the payer doesn't have $500 in his account at the moment, those cheques will all bounce. 

If the payer put a stop payment on the cheques, that's not RBC's fault either.

Anyhow guys, I'm about tired of this thread now. I spent 7 years answering these kind of questions and getting attitude about "the big bad bank". There's a reason I don't do it anymore, and it's also why I have zero empathy left for people with these kind of complaints. If you have any other questions or concerns about RBC, please take it up with someone who is still on their payroll at 1-800-ROYAL-11 (1-800-769-2511).


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## synop7 (Feb 2, 2006)

*Apologies to Powered Toast Man*

Dear mr Man

I did not know you were in the banking business

My post wasn't directed at you or your job

My standing on the issue is that as a customer I have the right to stand my ground. We could have chatted about car dealers, plummers or my favorite: the guys at Digitech

If you feel I need to apologize, let me know, I'll do it on this very post


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

synop7 said:


> Dear mr Man
> 
> I did not know you were in the banking business
> 
> ...


Dude, I'm not offended by anything you posted previously. I actually agree with you that a customer has the right to stand their ground, and voice their displeasure with their wallet. I wish more consumers would strive to be more informed - they'd save themselves a lot of money by doing so.

It's just that this thread will go on forever with people airing their banking greivances. While I have the knowledge and experience to probably respond to every one of them, I have simply lost interest. I did it for a living for 7 years, if you look back on this thread, I've explained a number of situations, and I'm done.

It's the same reason I had to stop watching that show, "Till Debt Do Us Part". While it's great information and everything Gail Vaz-Oxlade says is bang on, I would watch and think, "I've spoken to at least 6 couples exactly like this today." Doing lending I would see what people did to themselves financially on a daily basis. It was ridiculous. You could go on about how the banks did it to them, but in the end, the customer is the one buying things they can't afford. Sure, credit is tempting, but it's fine in moderation. I believe in personal responsibility - you are responsible for your own choices. I saw so much stupidity that I lost any and all empathy for people with the kind of money problems on the show. Anyway, that's a whole other discussion.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

It's POGO TIME!!


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