# Tube amp building workshop(s)...any interest?



## greco

Mods..if this is in the wrong section, please move it.

I am starting this thread to see if there would be any interest in organizing a workshop related to building *tube* amps. 

The workshop is mainly intended for forum members in southern Ontario. The location would be dependent on the availability of space, the instructor(s), being reasonably centrally located, etc. 

Would it be preferred to hold the workshop(s) on weekends or evenings? I understand that the location will be a deciding factor for many when responding to this question. Would it be preferred to spread out the instruction time over several weeks during evenings..... or do a full weekend....or do a full day for a few Saturdays or Sundays? 

I would see this workshop covering topics such as:

SAFETY
electronics theory
construction techniques
basic troubleshooting (i.e., use of test/measurement equipment)
basic concepts of modding

What else would you see being included?

Is there a preference to to come away from this workshop with a tube amp you have built from a kit? This would increase the registration cost of the workshop significantly. It would be somewhat practical/logical if everyone was building the same kit. 

Would you want to see tool kits made available for those who cannot bring their own? Another significant additional cost.

I certainly think that there needs to be some opportunities to do hands-on tasks during the workshop...somehow. 

Any amp techs that would like to be instructors? (or share the work)

Any forum members with skills/experience in organizing workshops?

Please feel free to ask questions and/or make comments/suggestions.

Thanks

Dave


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## johnsatrimayer

I'd be interested. But more for the safety and modding. I'd rather mod my own amp than pay an amp tech to do a simple soldering job and replace caps and stuff. i have a CVR that i want to apply the mark moyer mods on. parts are so cheap but i'm just so scared of getting shocked and dying. LOL.


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## keeperofthegood

:wave: "centrally" located, for me, would be anywhere on the GO train network.

Sunday is my only day that I have the general ability to up and scoot about.

Sunday bus and train service sucks donkey ... oysters.


Interesting all the same!!


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## Lincoln

I'm in! I finished a 5F1, and next I wanna do another 5F1, then try a 5E3 :rockon2:

Edit - Oh.......it's an actual workshop located in Ontario...... I'm out.


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## greco

johnsatrimayer said:


> I'd be interested. But more for the safety and modding. I'd rather mod my own amp than pay an amp tech to do a simple soldering job and replace caps and stuff. i have a CVR that i want to apply the mark moyer mods on. parts are so cheap but i'm just so scared of getting shocked and dying. LOL.


Note how I put SAFETY on the top of the list.....I have the same fears. 
The fear is healthy, as long as it isn't immobilizing.

BTW...what is a CVR?

Cheers

Dave


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## liddokun

Sounds pretty cool, I'd be intersted. 
I got to school everyday in the downtown core of Toronto, so if it's held there, I'd definitely have some interest in checking it out!


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## greco

keeperofthegood said:


> Sunday is my only day that I have the general ability to up and scoot about.
> Sunday bus and train service sucks donkey ... oysters.
> Interesting all the same!!


Sunday is typically always the best day for me also. 

Maybe you could get a ride with another forum member if the bus/train service not good.

Dave


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## zurn

Thats a great idea greco! Too bad i'm in Quebec


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## mrmatt1972

It's a very good idea. WHat we need 1st is an instructor and a venue so we can calculate cost. 1 day seems a little short too. sat and sunday would be nice. Perhaps it could be during March Break when many people with kids take time off. I'd take a drive down to the GTA then.


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## urko99

Sounds very intresting. Ive got a place to stay if it ends up in GTA. I'm game.


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## weener

I`m in,never had the confidence to tackle something like this alone so a workshop would be perfect.


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## dtsaudio

I may be interested as an instructor. However it depends on time and place.


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## starjag

I am certainly interested as well.


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## Jim DaddyO

I may be interested. The KW area is OK..GTA too far. I would like to see it inexpensive, perhaps an instructor walking through a build of his own. The troubleshooting and mod section would be good too. Getting the basics of circuitry and how it all works and interacts and options would be cool too. Setting Bias, maintenance all good. I would be willing to donate my Peavey Classic 30 for a tube change and bias adjustment, demonstating purposes (I'll buy the tubes if they are supplied). Maybe even try out different pre amp tubes etc. But it has to be inexpensive as WSIB is really screwing me and money is tight.

BTW, I'd love to build a kit, but too much moolah right now.


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## JCJ

I'm interested as well. Great idea. Sunday is probably best, but other days too depending on location.
I'm in Oakville.

james


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## keeperofthegood

Jim DaddyO said:


> I may be interested. The KW area is OK..GTA too far. I would like to see it inexpensive, perhaps an instructor walking through a build of his own. The troubleshooting and mod section would be good too. Getting the basics of circuitry and how it all works and interacts and options would be cool too. Setting Bias, maintenance all good. I would be willing to donate my Peavey Classic 30 for a tube change and bias adjustment, demonstating purposes (I'll buy the tubes if they are supplied). Maybe even try out different pre amp tubes etc. But it has to be inexpensive as WSIB is really screwing me and money is tight.
> 
> BTW, I'd love to build a kit, but too much moolah right now.



ooops, forgot the quote.

The only bus service to KW from Burlington is Greyhound, at 32 dollars one way. Unless someone knows of another service between the GTA and KW?

Money is indeed tight! But a decent under 3W amp can be done I think for less than 100 dollars all parts included. The biggest single expense will be the filter caps on the power supply. Those are running around 7 dollars each, the tubes will be less than that if we DON'T use a mainstream tube like _##_L6. *NOTE I am not including the costs of the power tranny, the output tranny, or the speaker. There is a company making toroidal transformers at a fair cost that we might do a discounted cost bulk buy from. Speakers ... dunno, open to ideas on those.

I would indeed suggest this too. The skill is the same, the math is the same, the basic component layout is the same, and once one small one is done, on that frame it can at any time be "up graded".

We can also pool and get one of the 10 or 25 or etc lots from exUSSR too. 30ish dollars in tubes, 30ish dollars in shipping.

Learning is the hard first step, upgrading from there is simple


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## greco

Looks like there is enough interest.

*It would help if you folks posted some preferences. *
If you want amp kits and tools to be provided, the cost will *easily* be over $500.00...this would be for a basic Champ clone (without cab or speaker) and for tools. 

Location...seems like somewhere near Toronto is reasonable. It will be impossible to to meet everyone's needs re: location. Maybe some car pooling among members would help.

A Saturday *and* Sunday would be good...if everyone thinks they can "digest" that much information in one weekend. Or possibly two (or more) Sundays

Jim DaddyO had some good ideas...Thanks

*I will not be taking on the planning and organizing of this myself. *Anyone interested in volunteering to be on a planning committee? 

mrmatt1972 is suggesting the March break as a possible time. If enough forum members volunteer to help organize, it might be a reasonable target.

Cheers

Dave


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## keeperofthegood

Here, 35 dollars US:

http://www.antekinc.com/details.php?p=59

350 volts, 200VA should be WAY more than needed even for a massively upgraded amp.

http://www.antekinc.com/lview.php?d[]=2

their output transformers, 20W staring at 55 dollars. May not be the best deal on the net. I would either look for a bulk discount or look elsewhere. They don't do smaller than 20W too.

I think this is also where we could pool and do some bulk "one-off" purchases for things like resistors, capacitors and potentiometers too. Buying in bulk does, distributively, diminish cost.

We also can purchase turrets or eyes in bulk (online no idea, but I have seen them on eBay) by 100, 500, 1000, 2000 units. Glass board is cheep (30 bucks worth would probably do 30 amps). All we need is a person with a drill press to drill the boards and we can do our own turret boards at a fraction of the costs.

We would also need all the shell and mounting hardware. Going mainstream that can lead into real $$ which is NOT a bad thing, but yea, funds are tight. I am way open to ideas on keeping that cost down. Even if we buy a gross of particle board boxes from a cabinet maker at 20 bucks a unit and then cover them ourselves would be maybe good? Maybe??


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## urko99

greco said:


> Looks like there is enough interest.
> 
> *It would help if you folks posted some preferences. *
> If you want amp kits and tools to be provided, the cost will *easily* be over $500.00...this would be for a basic Champ clone (without cab or speaker) and for tools.
> 
> Location...seems like somewhere near Toronto is reasonable. It will be impossible to to meet everyone's needs re: location. Maybe some car pooling among members would help.
> 
> A Saturday *and* Sunday would be good...if everyone thinks they can "digest" that much information in one weekend. Or possibly two (or more) Sundays
> 
> Jim DaddyO had some good ideas...Thanks
> 
> *I will not be taking on the planning and organizing of this myself. *Anyone interested in volunteering to be on a planning committee?
> 
> mrmatt1972 is suggesting the March break as a possible time. If enough forum members volunteer to help organize, it might be a reasonable target.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


You would have to keep it pretty simple for me. I am a true "beginer", but have a great intrest to know more about it, without holding back too many of the advanced membership. Keeping the build basic, would not be overwelming.


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## Alistair6

i would be interested depending on the timing and what was included in the workshop. i have built a ceriatone DC30 kit in the past and mod'd a few amps but could certainly use some more expert instruction.. 
if location was somewhat central car pooling could always be arranged im sure.

it would be nice to build a kit


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## urko99

How about a 5e3 deluxe kit? I always wanted one of those.


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## keeperofthegood

Either a kit or an agreed on 'put it together our selves kit' (which I feel may be cheaper to do than a pre-made off the shelf kit or maybe not, dunno, we'd need to crunch the numbers), I think a good idea is that *we all do the same amp at the same time*. That way, if one of us (likely me) runs into trouble we are all on the same page and should be able to readily help each other out. Also, all being the same at the start they should all sound fairly much the same too so we can directly compare to each other, and sounding much the same we can also elect to do different mods too so we could compare how that changed the tone. Say, different caps in the tone stack and how that changes the amp, or a different bias on the output or etc.


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## keeperofthegood

urko99 said:


> How about a 5e3 deluxe kit? I always wanted one of those.


kqoct http://www.missionamps.com/5E3kit.shtml

I like it, but 400 dollars US for just the chassis, not the cab, the speakers; and not including the tools, transportation, days worth of food, lodgings, rental of "the space" and yea... 


I think we could do much the same deal for a far better cost  and it is about the skill. Once the skill is taught, doing "better" becomes a matter of course.


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## johnsatrimayer

greco said:


> Note how I put SAFETY on the top of the list.....I have the same fears.
> The fear is healthy, as long as it isn't immobilizing.
> 
> BTW...what is a CVR?
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


CVR= Custom Vibrolux Reverb


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## mrmatt1972

There's this kit:

http://www.ax84.com/

it has several variations.

But personally I'd like to learn how to service my existing amps. How to safely drain a cap, how to set bias, how to troubleshoot, maybe a session on the various tremolo circuits and how to fix them, how to solder and de-solder properly...


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## greco

OK ..the thread is moving along with lots of interest.

Now the "proof is in the pudding" (expression goes well with the season...don't ya think? ..LOL)....

I am going to suggest that a *minimum* of 5 forum members *email* me offering to be on the organizing committee. Please put "Tube Amp Workshop" in the subject line. 

At that time, I will put together a group reply system and we can all use it to keep all of the committee members updated. I have done this before and it works well.

*Before committing to this, please understand that it will likely involve a fair amount of your time. Please don't offer to be on the committee if you can't see yourself being dedicated to helping and to see this project through to the end.*


Also, I'm still interested in people posting their interest, but more importantly their comments and suggestions.

Cheers

Dave


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## keeperofthegood

greco said:


> OK ..the thread is moving along with lots of interest.
> 
> Now the "proof is in the pudding"....I am going to suggest that a *minimum* of 5 forum members *email* me offering to be on the organizing committee. Please put "Tube Amp Workshop" in the subject line.
> 
> At that time, I will put together a group reply system and we can all use it to keep all of the committee members updated. I have done this before and it works well.
> 
> *Before committing to this, please understand that it will likely involve a fair amount of your time. Please don't offer to be on the committee if you can't see yourself being dedicated to helping and to see this project through to the end.*
> 
> 
> Also, I'm still interested in people posting their interest, but more importantly their comments and suggestions.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


PM'd

:bow: I suck at organizing. Me and Time are not best of buds. However, I am in if y'all have me. I know a few things, have a few skills, and certainly have some enthusiasm


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## greco

keeperofthegood said:


> PM'd
> 
> :bow: I suck at organizing. Me and Time are not best of buds. However, I am in if y'all have me. I know a few things, have a few skills, and certainly have some enthusiasm


Thanks keeps...please email me. 

Cheers

Dave


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## starjag

Where is this _email_ you talk about greco?


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## greco

starjag said:


> Where is this _email_ you talk about greco?


Apologies to all. I will put my email in my sig.

Please see post #31

Dave


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## greco

email is below.....


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## JCJ

My interest initially would be for someone skilled in this discipline to walk us all through the process of building an amp...maybe for an hour or two. Despite being a long time player, I know precious little about how my gear works.
I'm open to a hands-on workshop as well, but my preference is to start with a seminar. I don't have much extra dough these days to invest in any projects that require an investment.

I look forward to seeing how this all develops.
cheers,
james


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## GuitarsCanada

I can create a custom enrollment form for you. If you have any idea on the specific questions/input you would like on it send me a PM. It can be attached to this thread and anyone that is interested in attending can just fill out the form. It can be automatically sent to an email address as well. So if there is an organizer they would all go to that person and you can keep track of the participants.


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## greco

GuitarsCanada said:


> I can create a custom enrollment form for you. If you have any idea on the specific questions/input you would like on it send me a PM. It can be attached to this thread and anyone that is interested in attending can just fill out the form. It can be automatically sent to an email address as well. So if there is an organizer they would all go to that person and you can keep track of the participants.


Thanks very much for offering this. kksjur

It would be very helpful !!

I will be in touch when/if I get 5 volunteers to assist with the organizing.

Cheers

Dave


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## greco

In an effort to keep costs down, would there be more interest in a tube amp workshop with a focus on safety, soldering, biasing, troubleshooting, etc. This was mentioned in previous posts. More of a maintenance focus rather than a building focus.

With this in mind, does anyone own this book? Would it be a good book to follow as a course outline? If the book is reasonably good, it could be made available to everyone that attends. Hopefully, the instructor we hire would agree to use it as course texbook.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Books,_...ce_Your_Own_Tube_Amp.html?tab=Details#details 

Personally, I would still see this as being one full day for sure, possibly 2 full days. This type of workshop would certainly be easier to plan/organize. 

A future workshop for building a tube amp could always be considered for a later date.

Either way, I'm going to need 4 more volunteers for the organizing committee.

Cheers

Dave


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## greco

I found another volunteer:

http://www.insidesocal.com/usc/Campus-Girls-Swimsuit-Calendar-262.jpg

Does this create any more interest?....hwopv

Dave


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## greco

FYI....I found this. 2 reviews of the book gave it 2 out of 5 stars

*How to Service Your Own Tube Amp
A Complete Guide for the Curious Musician* by Tom Mitchell

Written in an informal, nontechnical, and entertaining style, this easy-to-read guidebook takes readers on a step-by-step "crash course" in electronics while teaching troubleshooting, servicing, and problem prevention. Includes in-depth coverage of tubes and transformers, troubleshooting flow charts, many amplifier modifications, a maintenance checklist and lots of useful reference information.

1991, 250pp., 8 1/2" x 11", spiralbound.
0-9628-1700-7
1.46 lbs

CONTENTS:
CHAPTER 1. Introduction 
CHAPTER 2. Electronic Fundamentals 
CHAPTER 3. Resistors 
CHAPTER 4. Capacitors 
CHAPTER 5. Inductors & Transformers 
CHAPTER 6. Tubes 
CHAPTER 7. Semiconductors 
CHAPTER 8. Speakers 
CHAPTER 9. Amplifier Basics 
CHAPTER 10; Biasing 
CHAPTER 11. Tools 
CHAPTER 12. Soldering 
CHAPTER 13. Multimeter Use 
CHAPTER 14. Reading Schematics 
CHAPTER 15. What Not To Do! 
CHAPTER 16. Technical Tips 
CHAPTER 17. Maintenance Checklist 
CHAPTER 18. Voltage Charts 
CHAPTER 19. Troubleshooting Flowcharts 
CHAPTER 20. International Voltages 
CHAPTER 21. Modifications


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## keeperofthegood

boomer said:


> My interest initially would be for someone skilled in this discipline to walk us all through the process of building an amp...maybe for an hour or two. Despite being a long time player, I know precious little about how my gear works.
> I'm open to a hands-on workshop as well, but my preference is to start with a seminar. I don't have much extra dough these days to invest in any projects that require an investment.
> 
> I look forward to seeing how this all develops.
> cheers,
> james



I think this is going to be what sums it up for a lot of folks. Not enough money to pay bills, eat, and invest heavy in an amp build. No shame in that, it simply is how it is, the economy still sucks.

Learning to solder is a two part job:
*
Part the 1*) taking some wire and soldering it....
*The other part*) doing the first part over again

In grade 9, what we did was all stood at a table, with spools of wire, and soldered them. Teacher would observe, would hands on show, and we would cut out our 4 inches of joint and get graded. We did that for all of maybe 1 hour grand total time over the course of a week (well, maybe 50 mins at 10 mins a day really).

It is kinda like riding a bike; once you got it you got it.

Learning to identify all the parts is fairly straight forward to. There are not a lot of parts to learn.

Learning safety is also fairly straight forward, and comes down to 'know what you are doing' mostly. Amps and Radios wont have energy high enough to have arc flashes, but them power filter capacitors can pack a punch that leaves you a cardiac patient.

So, a workshop for n00bs would have to follow a pattern. No be just one part of information and not another. And I think should be affordable for all involved. 

1. Introduction to Electronics
..a. what is these bits and pieces
..b. why do they work
..c. oh, thats hows it's done? damn, I paid that much for this?

2. Introduction to Soldering

3. Stay Safe. Don't touch exposed wires and for gawds sake discharge those caps!! (well, you get the idea lol)

4. Apply it.

1,2,3 can be done in about an hour, maybe 2 hours. None of it is rocket science (yet) and most of it is fairly straight forward (no hidden punches). Learning 1,2,3 comes from doing which leads to 4.

Applying it is the part that gets into money (or can get into money). This is going to be the rub for most I think. If we can establish a project to build that is cost effective then the learning of 1, 2, 3 can be applied and locked into peoples minds. Once people have one amp done, the second will become simpler, it is just that first amp to do. Building one from parts would let everyone apply the maths (really standardized stuff so don't fear having to learn a new math, it is all * / + and - maths) read and select components, predict behaviors and apply physical skills.

I know I didn't say anything definitive here, mostly an ideas of a framework ramble, but that is intentional. I am way open and I do want to hear what I missed, what could be done different, what should be done different what needs improving and etc.


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## greco

keeperofthegood said:


> I think this is going to be what sums it up for a lot of folks. Not enough money to pay bills, eat, and invest heavy in an amp build. No shame in that, it simply is how it is, the economy still sucks.


Thanks Keeps. Appreciate your enthusiasm for this "adventure" :bow:

The financial side of things is why i suggested more of a safety, "basic" theory, some hands-on (especially soldering), etc. approach. 

I was suggesting the textbook as it might be a good, inexpensive reference. We could likely get lots of the same information that is in the book from the internet and put it together ourselves, but that approach is labour intensive and might not result in any real savings.

I would really like to see the participants leave the workshop with something useful that they had built. Not sure what to suggest ....or how to accomplish it. I'm not really sure if it is all that essential. 

So far, we have a volunteer organizing committee of 3. When/if we get to 6 volunteers we will start hammering out the details.

Cheers

Dave


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## kw_guitarguy

Hi Dave,

Instead of building an amp at the workshop...would some of the same goals be reached by building something less expensive? A pedal or something?

Just a thought.

~Andrew


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## keeperofthegood

greco said:


> Thanks Keeps. Appreciate your enthusiasm for this "adventure" :bow:
> 
> The financial side of things is why i suggested more of a safety, "basic" theory, some hands-on (especially soldering), etc. approach.
> 
> I was suggesting the textbook as it might be a good, inexpensive reference. We could likely get lots of the same information that is in the book from the internet and put it together ourselves, but that approach is labour intensive and might not result in any real savings.
> 
> I would really like to see the participants leave the workshop with something useful that they had built. Not sure what to suggest ....or how to accomplish it. I'm not really sure if it is all that essential.
> 
> So far, we have a volunteer organizing committee of 3. When/if we get to 6 volunteers we will start hammering out the details.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave





kw_guitarguy said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Instead of building an amp at the workshop...would some of the same goals be reached by building something less expensive? A pedal or something?
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> ~Andrew



Hey oh

Having a "book in common" is a good approach. How much is that one, where is it up for sale at the best price? Is there quantity breaks on that if bought in multiples?

There are a few ways to accomplish the hands-on tasks. Hands-on is definitely needed too. I am sure a spool of wire wont break the bank if the cost is shared, and learning those soldering skills the way my class was taught in grade 9 (the just-do-it) really did work. A note-book and pencil for notes and the maths side of the learning from the dollar store. We can do a lot of the "learning" before even physically meeting up too.

As to what to build, we should start "finding" things on-line and posting them. Be they schematics, or parts. *HEY what about a GC group with a GC group forum to do that in Dave?* Or have you made one? That way we can concentrate our efforts without a huge main forum posting that may contain links that may be in rule violation 

I can suggest that a pedal and a simple solid state amp would end up being much the same cost as they do contain many of the same parts just arranged differently (and as kits they run in the 10 to 30 dollar range for beginners either way). If there is going to be some power to it, the costs would be in the transformers and speakers. But then, for a tube amp, that is where the costs are too, maybe 2/3rds higher though. For instance, I spent a while trying to find chokes in the 5 to 10 Henry range for less than 23 dollars without much success this morning, so a good power resistor instead in the filter circuit for a dollar may be a "doable but upgradeable" component choice. This is where I say "the skill is the skill, and with it you can upgrade" comes from, making the "not the best choice but workable for the moment" choices. That toroid transformer I linked a bit ago, for $35 I think is the best price on the high-voltage end (and the toroids for low voltage 12 volts or so is around 10 dollars or less I think, I would have to relook). We can even dispence with a filament transformer, pull the voltage needed to light the tubes off the B+ using a power resistor and zener diode. Yea, that would also need some explaining and experimenting but it is in theory something that is "possible" (WILD BILL CAN THAT BE DONE?)

The best way to keep costs down is to do a *collective purchase* of whatever it is we do. Books, store-made-kits, our own put-together-kits, however we decide to go.

OH and how much does Timmies charge to cater?  Gotta think of the coffee side of the budget too!


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## greco

kw_guitarguy said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Instead of building an amp at the workshop...would some of the same goals be reached by building something less expensive? A pedal or something?
> 
> Just a thought.
> 
> ~Andrew


Hi Andrew ...This is what I keep wondering/debating about myself. It would be less expensive, but building anything would still mean that particiapnts would have to bring tools...which they would also have to purchase if they didn't own them already. Tools could easily be another $100.00 +, and the cost of the pedal kit on top. And how to decide on which pedal kit to get so that everyone is building the same pedal.

Cheers

Dave


(PS...for a minute I thought you were going to suggest bulding a DI box..hwopv)


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## kw_guitarguy

You could also approach a store or website that sells kits to get a price break on x amount of kits as well.

~Andrew


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## greco

Keeps..the books are available from StewMac at about $25.00 CDN each + shipping. That is with a "bulk purchase and was the best price I could find.

Cheers

Dave


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## keeperofthegood

kw_guitarguy said:


> You could also approach a store or website that sells kits to get a price break on x amount of kits as well.
> 
> ~Andrew



Who sells pedal kits that we can compare?


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## keeperofthegood

greco said:


> Keeps..the books are available from StewMac at about $25.00 CDN each + shipping. That is with a "bulk purchase and was the best price I could find.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave



Hmmm .... stew tends to the $$ side, but 25 is not an unreasonable expense for a book of this kind either.

Worthy of doing I think  if we can pool funds and have a person do the purchase


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## greco

kw_guitarguy said:


> You could also approach a store or website that sells kits to get a price break on x amount of kits as well.
> 
> ~Andrew


Most certainly.


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## greco

keeperofthegood said:


> Hmmm .... stew tends to the $$ side, but 25 is not an unreasonable expense for a book of this kind either.
> 
> Worthy of doing I think  if we can pool funds and have a person do the purchase


I am not about to make any purchases until we have the received (some of) the registration fees.

I looked ++ and StewMac had by far the best prices for this book. 



Cheers

Dave


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## keeperofthegood

greco said:


> I am not about to make any purchases until we have the received (some of) the registration fees.
> 
> I looked ++ and StewMac had by far the best prices for this book.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


+1 yes, no purchases prior to funds in hand that is for def sure!

LOL Wow an item they got right, that is totally awesome!!!

:rockon2: did have a thought though. This is an 'amp' building notion.... that may become pedal building LOL .... just a thought


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## greco

keeperofthegood said:


> This is an 'amp' building notion.... that may become pedal building LOL .... just a thought


*Personally* I'm still aiming for tube amp SAFETY, maintenance, etc, etc.

One easy and useful little project would be a *well designed *device for draining caps. Another basic and useful build would be a *continuity tester with a beeper*...if your DMM doesn't have one. I use mine all the time...just some thoughts.

I'm at work and busy..so I might not get back to this thread for a while.

Cheers

Dave


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## Rugburn

IMO working on pedals and tube amps is like comparing apples and oranges. If you want to practice soldering, go to the dump at the electronics area, and grab some of the crap laying around that have PCBs in them. This is essentially what we used at the hand-soldering and circuit repair course I took at Conestoga College. Likewise, bring a real tube amp into the workshop and do a maintenance session with a quallified intstructor. This will keep costs down, and still offer a pertinent tutorial. My $0.02 worth.

Shawn


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## greco

Rugburn said:


> IMO working on pedals and tube amps is like comparing apples and oranges. If you want to practice soldering, go to the dump at the electronics area, and grab some of the crap laying around that have PCBs in them. This is essentially what we used at the hand-soldering and circuit repair course I took at Conestoga College. *Likewise, bring a real tube amp into the workshop and do a maintenance session with a quallified intstructor. *This will keep costs down, and still offer a pertinent tutorial. My $0.02 worth.
> 
> Shawn


Thanks Shawn. 

I have many old PCBs to practice soldering (and *desoldering*) on...lots of old components also.

No love for making a device to drain caps?

A "session" on maintenance would paramount, IMHO.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## Jim DaddyO

How about this for a compromise?

Build a single tube pre-amp pedal. That way it could incorperate tone stacks (bass and treble), a volume stage, and an adjustable gain stage. 4 pots, a tube and socket, a couple of jacks, a switch (can learn about true bypass switching), a handful of resistors and capacitors. I am sure someone has the experience to do up a schematic.

Just a random thought.


----------



## Jim DaddyO

In addition to my previous thought above. Could it be made flexable enough that a single tube power amp could be added to it at a later date (like part 2 of the "course")? I guess it would take some doing for the chassis but mounting it on a plain board until the builder can transfer it on his own at a later date???? Maybe part 3 could be adding a reverb tank or an effects loop???


----------



## keeperofthegood

Jim DaddyO said:


> In addition to my previous thought above. Could it be made flexable enough that a single tube power amp could be added to it at a later date (like part 2 of the "course")? I guess it would take some doing for the chassis but mounting it on a plain board until the builder can transfer it on his own at a later date???? Maybe part 3 could be adding a reverb tank or an effects loop???



Well, I am no expert. Certainly there are wiser heads here. Much of what I suggest is things I have thought of over the bast few months myself.

In looking at an amp in terms of segments, what you have is essentially:











Thats the rawest look at a guitar amp. Each section can be treated as it's own section. Lots of hobby peoples start of building their power supply, and often build it in its own housing. However, there is no reason not to get a metal worker member to work up at a fair cost a C frame, say something that is 10 or 15 inches wide but 5 or 6 inches deep and 2 inches high. With a single piece to match that height the width of the sheet with a flanged top and bottom so that the weight of the power transformer chosen doesn't bend the overall sheet in half. Maybe pre-punch it as well for octals and miniatures, 5 holes across each. Leave it up to us how to fill tubes out into that later. Or something like that 

Like this:











This is just ideas here of course. I listed out earlier what I found for prices and whatnot and the power section (with room to grow) runs around 80 dollars without bulk purchase price deals.


----------



## keeperofthegood

Here is a neat, and doable, article from http://terrydownsmusic.com/technotes/TECH.HTM on Vibrato http://terrydownsmusic.com/technotes/vibratocircuits/vibrato_circuits.htm


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## greco

Jim DaddyO said:


> How about this for a compromise?
> 
> Build a single tube pre-amp pedal. That way it could incorperate tone stacks (bass and treble), a volume stage, and an adjustable gain stage. 4 pots, a tube and socket, a couple of jacks, a switch (can learn about true bypass switching), a handful of resistors and capacitors. I am sure someone has the experience to do up a schematic.
> 
> Just a random thought.


Thanks Jim DaddyO

This is a good compromise and suggestion. My son-in-law built one of these for me using a 12AU7. There are various schematics for these on the internet.

Dave


----------



## greco

OK...we are getting lots of ideas and suggestions and they are much appreciated. Please keep making them. 

However, we need volunteers for the organizing committee to make this all become reality.

As this thread could go on forever, I'm going to ask that admin lock or delete the thread *IF we do not have at least 3 more committed volunteers by January 4, 2010 * 
Thanks

Dave


----------



## keeperofthegood

http://www.dmitrynizh.com/submini-vibro-reverb.htm

Hmm... more options


----------



## Wild Bill

It's great to see such interest! Obviously there's a hunger out there. In the words of the immortal band Strange Fruit: "The Flame Still Burns!" as far as tubes go!

Still, I have a few cautions. Pretty well all the "wish lists" posted neglect the most important part of the equation, learning some tube electronic theory!

I've been an instructor before and I make my living as a tech today and the sad truth is that there is no way in just a few hours in a seminar I can take someone from scratch and make him or her competent to build and work on tube amps.

I COULD make someone able to keep him or herself reasonably safe! I COULD help them learn to be able to put a kit together! Then what?

Without at least a basic level of theory, if that kit doesn't work you'll never be able to troubleshoot it. If you want to mod it, you won't be able to by yourself. You will have to read about a mod somewhere and copy it. If the mod isn't EXACTLY based on your amp you will likely be completely lost!

It takes time to learn some basics but it's really the only way. I would never trust someone to work on an amp who didn't understand how all the parts worked and could do at least simple OHM's LAW problems in his head!

What's more, I truly don't believe anyone can become proficient without being completely comfortable with a schematic. Pictures are too vague and never show what you actually need to see. In fact, if you send a true tech a picture instead of a schematic he will likely cringe! Without a schematic you've only made things harder for him.

So I would not support a one day seminar. I don't believe it would give good value to someone really wanting to learn.

I would suggest a series of Sunday afternoons, like maybe 10 of them. We'd start by teaching the basics, like what's an electron, then what's a cap and a resistor and how they work. Once we've covered the passive devices, including inductors and transformers we'd start on active devices like vacuum tubes and solid state diodes.

This might take at least two afternoons right there, especially when you consider that we need to include the resistor colour code, the standard colour code for transformer wires and of course, SCHEMATIC DIAGRAMS!

After these basics have been covered we could begin soldering. It's not that hard once you've been shown some pointers. Within an hour or so you should be ready to begin building a kit.

I wouldn't expect to waste class time working on kits. You can build your kit at home! You can also practice solder and memorize the resistor colour code. Class time would be when you could bring your kit in so that an instructor could keep giving quick inspections and help you over any snags.

When a kit is finished we should spend at least one afternoon teaching how to measure with a multimeter and maybe show a little stuff on a 'scope. An instructor could show how what voltages are typical and how something wrong, like an incorrect or blown resistor, would give a screwy reading. Again, this would be a good time to show how to avoid shocking one's self to death!:smile:

Starting with a kit would be a good focus but we would have to have a consensus as to which kit to use. I'd recommend either a 5F1 Champ style or a 5E3 Deluxe. Anything more complicated would be asking for trouble. Designing and gathering the parts for our own kits is a lot of work. Choosing a local vendor would save a lot of effort. The decision would have to be made about building just the chassis or including a cab and speaker.

Learning by rote seems faster in the beginning but soon puts a cap on how far you can go. In the Golden Years of tube technology, companies hired women by the thousands to solder up and build all manner of electronic equipment, from radios to tvs to whatever. Virtually NONE of them ever had the faintest idea of how what they built actually worked! They became expert solderers but that's all.

Are we going to train assembly line "robot" solderers or tube amp techs? The goal determines the methods and not the other way around.

:food-smiley-004:


----------



## keeperofthegood

:wave: Thank you Wild Bill!

Yes, there is going to be a learning curve through which people will need to go. I was trying to think of a way of presenting that without scarring anyone off LOL which is why I said the maths are mostly the simple +-/* type maths. I know small signal analysis goes into x + iy and matrix manipulations >.< and I wont mention Fourier Analysis *fear*. The explanations I have read on how to select a cathode bypass capacitor >.< though OMG, well... the fellow that showed the math but then walked through using a scope to tweak the value shown by the math was engrossing to say the least and left me wanting a square wave generator! 

However, 10 weekends between March and August will probably really be better than a single weekend to actually 'learn' what you are doing. Half the first day will mostly be about getting to know each other and getting an idea of what to expect! Being realistic about a room full of adults and how we settle into a new task-venture. We could use a group and forum here to both "get it started" and to "continue the learning". Would be maybe a good idea.

Along with learning the maths, the components and schematics is also learning the tools. Learning how to apply a multi meter, how to use a scope, how to use a signal generator, how to interpret your results also are on the list of "things to know"!!

With the idea of building first, it is more the idea of "instant gratification". Instead of feeling like you have been reading for a month and have done nothing more than loose some sleep, to have either a working build at hand or one under construction I would hope would help to maintain the learning or support the learning. For instance, if you learn about Plate Curves, Load Lines, and how it relates to selecting A Part and then having that exact same deal in hand that you can measure and verify what you learned on paper I think would help bolster that learning. Keeping everyone with the same build I hope would let each other look over each others shoulders and if one person had an issue they would have ten others to compare against to work out that issue.

Although I actually figure the simpler and more dangerous first step is building a power supply. With a power supply you do learn about a fair number of components that behave in a pretty limited way and are more easily predictable. Entire books have been written on power supplies all the same even though they are a "simple" component. But I was thinking it would be chunky enough to get some good practical soldering done, has few enough components that learning what each is doing should be simpler, nearly all the main tube related schematic symbols would be used by a power supply, and the source of the "death by electrocution" risk is there and it would be good to start of learning about what NOT to do from the get-go.

:rockon2: No matter how it goes, there is interest out there! 

The 5E3 kit's I found ran from 300 to 500 dollars. That will be outside the range for some of us.

Chassis build VS the whole she-bang is another good point to raise too Wild Bill.

Sourcing out to put together our own kid is a big job yes. There are a few ways we can do that, but it would mean a few weeks of time. Between the hunt, the purchase and the shipping it may take 2 full months to put such a kit together at the least.


----------



## greco

Thanks very much for your comments Wild Bill. Much appreciated.
(I don't seem to have a "thanks' button for your post)


I was certainly waiting to see what thoughts/suggestions you had regarding this thread. 

I'm at work and busy, so I will have to edit this post with specific comments later.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## GuitarsCanada

In order to make it a success it will surely need some good advance advertising. We can accomplish that via a banner up top, which could link to an information page and also to the enrollment form. If there is a cost associated with it, I would suggest people be asked to send in a cheque to the organizer. I can also send out an email to all members once all arrangements have been made in terms of venue, dates, cost etc.

I would actually love to attend myself but will not be able to pull it off ovef the next 5 months or so. Summer time is pretty dead for us so if it stretches out that far I would like to do it too.

Just let me know. I will help you out anyway I can via the forum and forms etc.


----------



## greco

GuitarsCanada said:


> In order to make it a success it will surely need some good advance advertising. We can accomplish that via a banner up top, which could link to an information page and also to the enrollment form. If there is a cost associated with it, I would suggest people be asked to send in a cheque to the organizer. I can also send out an email to all members once all arrangements have been made in terms of venue, dates, cost etc.
> 
> I would actually love to attend myself but will not be able to pull it off ovef the next 5 months or so. Summer time is pretty dead for us so if it stretches out that far I would like to do it too.
> 
> Just let me know. I will help you out anyway I can via the forum and forms etc.


Thank you for all your support. I (or someone) will certainly be contacting you when/if we get volunteers for the organizing committee.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## greco

I'm bumping this thread to see if anyone wants to volunteer to be on the organizing committee. We need 3 more volunteers.

Thanks

Dave


----------



## greco

greco said:


> ideas and suggestions are much appreciated. Please keep making them.
> 
> However, we need volunteers for the organizing committee to make this all become reality.
> 
> As this thread could go on forever, I'm going to ask that admin lock or delete the thread *IF we do not have at least 3 more committed volunteers by January 4, 2010 *
> Thanks
> 
> Dave


We continue to need 3 volunteers for the organizing committee. 

*The date for deciding to continue with the workshop has been changed. 

Hopefully the additional time help potential volunteers to decide. *

At this time, we are hoping to put together basic tube amp kits at reasonalble prices. Details are not yet available, as this is a large and complicated task.

I'm going to ask that admin lock or delete the thread *IF we do not have at least 3 more committed volunteers by January 31, 2010 * 

*Please email me if you would like to be on the organizing committee (email address is in signature)*

Thanks

Dave


----------



## hollowbody

Count me in, Dave. Given my new-found desire to build a Trinity kit (and maybe an Allen Accomplice down the road), I'd love to be a part of this. I've also always wanted to learn how to bias tube amps and possibly do minor work on my old Traynor.


----------



## hollowbody

Re: Wild Bill's post, yes, I would definitely like to hear/understand some theory. As Bill mentioned, doing something by rote because that's how you learned it doesn't get you far when things go wrong and you realize you have no basic understanding of how the thing is supposed to work fundamentally.

I don't mind building just a chassis. A cabinet can be made later on. Also, I have a couple old 12" Marsland speakers that I wouldn't mind bringing with me just for testing purposes and people can add their own speakers and cabinets later on (maybe a woodworking/cabinet making seminar down the road???)


----------



## keeperofthegood

hollowbody said:


> Count me in, Dave. Given my new-found desire to build a Trinity kit (and maybe an Allen Accomplice down the road), I'd love to be a part of this. I've also always wanted to learn how to bias tube amps and possibly do minor work on my old Traynor.



:rockon2: WELCOME ABOARD!


----------



## JMC Amps

Re New Users Thread:


greco said:


> This sounds VERY interesting !!
> 
> Would you consider helping us out? *Possibly* with a small run of predrilled chassis units, etc.
> http://www.guitarscanada.com/Board/showthread.php?t=29453
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Dave


This is an awsome idea, and I hope it all comes to fruition one day! I'll try to help, if I can.

Before I can comment on supplying members with pre-drilled chassis units, kits etc. I have a few questions:

-What type (topology) of amplifier would members like to build?

-How much power? (5w?, 50w?, 500w!?)

-At what cost? (max $)

-Would members like to source their own parts? (Transformers, passives etc.), or would they prefer a kit?

And of course, before we talk any business, it is only fair to GuitarsCanada that I become a Gold Supporting Member:smile:

Regards

-JMc


----------



## greco

JMC Amps said:


> And of course, before we talk any business, it is only fair to GuitarsCanada that I become a Gold Supporting Member:smile:
> 
> Regards
> 
> -JMc


This is a very nice gesture and much appreciated. Thank you.

Cheers

Dave

BTW Where are you located?


----------



## keeperofthegood

JMC Amps said:


> Re New Users Thread:
> 
> 
> This is an awsome idea, and I hope it all comes to fruition one day! I'll try to help, if I can.
> 
> Before I can comment on supplying members with pre-drilled chassis units, kits etc. I have a few questions:
> 
> -What type (topology) of amplifier would members like to build?
> 
> -How much power? (5w?, 50w?, 500w!?)
> 
> -At what cost? (max $)
> 
> -Would members like to source their own parts? (Transformers, passives etc.), or would they prefer a kit?
> 
> And of course, before we talk any business, it is only fair to GuitarsCanada that I become a Gold Supporting Member:smile:
> 
> Regards
> 
> -JMc



Nothing is set in stone yet, but because this is a "learner" workshop, we are thinking smaller so far. 5 watts or less, 5 tubes or less, one speaker the size being batted being 10 inch so far, single ended. But, upgradeable.

We have several options for the electronics. We have several amps parts sourced nearly in full (some odds and ends to add in) *OR* we have a range of priced kits too that we are looking at. 

Nothing is yet firmly established though. As I mentioned, the notion we are also trying to go for is "you can upgrade this later", so there are ideas such as initially going with 1 tone control, but drilling 3 holes for bass/mid/treble and one hole for adding in say a 12AX7A at a later date by the builder so that that person can add in a fuller tone stack at his or her later leisure.

But that would mean a tin face plate  which is yet another step/cost to consider. Mind, I think I have had that in mind all along and not using the chassis to face the amp controls but then, cost maintenance is a key issue for this project.

Also trem and reverb options. These are mostly confined to single tube features with a 12AX7A for trem, and any small triode for the reverb (adding a reverb tank alone though bumps the cost 20 to 30 dollars, we are trying to maintain some simplicity, but also low buy in costs). The only thing people need to add these would be the holes pre-drilled, doing the kit ourselves we could populate those with sockets (sockets are only a buck or two when bought in bulk) too so so that people are "set" to work on them themselves and they can get their own resistors/caps and their own tubes.

Evolution, that is what it is about 


EDIT** Hope I am not speaking out of turn here btw >_>


----------



## greco

JMC Amps said:


> Re New Users Thread:
> 
> 
> This is an awsome idea, and I hope it all comes to fruition one day! I'll try to help, if I can.
> 
> Before I can comment on supplying members with pre-drilled chassis units, kits etc. I have a few questions:
> 
> -What type (topology) of amplifier would members like to build?
> 
> -How much power? (5w?, 50w?, 500w!?)
> 
> -At what cost? (max $)
> 
> -Would members like to source their own parts? (Transformers, passives etc.), or would they prefer a kit?
> 
> And of course, before we talk any business, it is only fair to GuitarsCanada that I become a Gold Supporting Member:smile:
> 
> Regards
> 
> -JMc


JMc....Thanks for your interest. 

As Keeps has mentioned, the organizing committee has nothing "set in stone" as yet.

*Personally*, I am thinking along the line of kits. This is because we would all have the same components to work with and teaching us how to build the (same) amp would be a much more logical/simplified task. I would also like to avoid having to deal with/buy from a variety of suppliers, especially when someone who puts together kits likely has accounts with suppliers and deals with them on a regular basis (i.e., avoiding minimal order sizes, avoiding multiple shipping costs, etc). Once we have confimed the number of registrants attending the workshop, we could then order the kits for those that wished to purchase. There is a *possibility *that some of the workshop participants will want to attend to learn, but will not want to purchase a kit. 

Having the participants source their own parts *could* lead to chaos, IMHO. (e.g., "I couldn't get all the components on the list you provided" , and/or "I got this instead, think it will work OK?" and/or "The supplier said my component (s) should be here soon") Call me a negative cynic..maybe I deserve it...LOL. 

We seem to be considering a single ended 5 watt (approx.) amp as the simplest and least expensive choice. *We are hoping to keep the total registration cost for the workshop as reasonable as possible. *

These are just some of my personal thoughts. I am not conveying the opinions of others on the committee. 

However, if the workshop does come to fruition, we will obviously need to "nail down" what we as a committee are offering in the workshop.

Thanks again for your interest.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## urko99

I like the small amp 5 watts or under. I also like the look ahead ideas for a tone stack as well as trem and reverb evolution, perhaps at a later date. There could be additional classes for that. Wild Bill, Keeps and Greco have great ideas and this thread appears to be evolving into a "simple" but yet an "expandable" and affordable project. Just let me know the time and place, as long as it is on the weekend. If it's in the GTA area, I can scrounge up a place to stay, (traveling from Windsor). 
I am a newbie to electronics, but have good soldering skills. Back as a teen, I use to solder assemble circuit boards for garage door openers. Just like Wild Bill had mentioned, I didn't know what I was soldering but I could solder.
I am also a CNC Machinist by trade and Manage a Machine shop in Oldcastle. If there is anything that needs to be machined or engraved (out of aluminum), Perhaps I can help in that way. No charge. Just my contribution if needed.
I also have a backround in fabrication and have access to laser, waterjet and bending of a custom designed chassis if needed.(all would be subcontracted but would be at a minimal cost charge). All held to close tolerance if needed. +/- .010. I don't know beans about an electrical chassis, but I can laser cut, engrave and bend to anyones specifications or drawings, and make it look just like the picture. It's what I do.
I'm just throwing all this out there and it will be up to the organizing commitee to see if these resources need to be tapped.


----------



## coco

*Amp Workshop*

Trinity Amps has been working on an affordable starter kit for a while now, to go along with the other kits (Tweed Deluxe, 4 - 18 watt Versions, TC15 (VOX/Matchless), TRIWATT (Low/Mid power HIWATT). It was always intended to run this starter kit with a workshop. It might be an idea to combine the two and get a very reasonably priced kit. 

The starter amp (called the Tramp) is a two tube (1 - Octal, 1 - 9-pin) , cathode bias, with Power/Level, Gain, Bass, Treble, Volume controls and 1 input. More details are here: http://www.trinityamps.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=16

Maybe we can participate in some way. It was something we were planning to do and this would be a great kick-off for this new product.

Cheers,

[email protected]


----------



## JHarasym

I'm interested in whatever this turns out to be.
There does seem to be a range of objectives (full amp build to a bit of technical information) and constraints (length, cost, location). It may require multiple solutions to satisfy most who have expressed an interest. Perhaps there should be a couple of groups working on different events?


----------



## greco

Apologies..I sent you an email *before* I saw this post and link. 

Thanks for the link.

Dave



coco said:


> Trinity Amps has been working on an affordable starter kit for a while now, to go along with the other kits (Tweed Deluxe, 4 - 18 watt Versions, TC15 (VOX/Matchless), TRIWATT (Low/Mid power HIWATT). It was always intended to run this starter kit with a workshop. It might be an idea to combine the two and get a very reasonably priced kit.
> 
> The starter amp (called the Tramp) is a two tube (1 - Octal, 1 - 9-pin) , cathode bias, with Power/Level, Gain, Bass, Treble, Volume controls and 1 input. More details are here: http://www.trinityamps.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=16
> 
> Maybe we can participate in some way. It was something we were planning to do and this would be a great kick-off for this new product.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> [email protected]


----------



## greco

JHarasym said:


> I'm interested in whatever this turns out to be.
> There does seem to be a range of objectives (full amp build to a bit of technical information) and constraints (length, cost, location). It may require multiple solutions to satisfy most who have expressed an interest. Perhaps there should be a couple of groups working on different events?


If you would like to start a new group to organize a different event, please don't hesitate. 

The options for other workshops seem endless.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## greco

Thank you very much your your post. 

Your generous offer is much appreciated !

At present, the organizing committee is discussing many options related to the workshop and no real/firm decisions have been made as yet. 

Again, many thanks for the offer to help.

Dave 




urko99 said:


> I like the small amp 5 watts or under. I also like the look ahead ideas for a tone stack as well as trem and reverb evolution, perhaps at a later date. There could be additional classes for that. Wild Bill, Keeps and Greco have great ideas and this thread appears to be evolving into a "simple" but yet an "expandable" and affordable project. Just let me know the time and place, as long as it is on the weekend. If it's in the GTA area, I can scrounge up a place to stay, (traveling from Windsor).
> I am a newbie to electronics, but have good soldering skills. Back as a teen, I use to solder assemble circuit boards for garage door openers. Just like Wild Bill had mentioned, I didn't know what I was soldering but I could solder.
> I am also a CNC Machinist by trade and Manage a Machine shop in Oldcastle. If there is anything that needs to be machined or engraved (out of aluminum), Perhaps I can help in that way. No charge. Just my contribution if needed.
> I also have a backround in fabrication and have access to laser, waterjet and bending of a custom designed chassis if needed.(all would be subcontracted but would be at a minimal cost charge). All held to close tolerance if needed. +/- .010. I don't know beans about an electrical chassis, but I can laser cut, engrave and bend to anyones specifications or drawings, and make it look just like the picture. It's what I do.
> I'm just throwing all this out there and it will be up to the organizing commitee to see if these resources need to be tapped.


----------



## coco

urko99 said:


> I also have a backround in fabrication and have access to laser, waterjet and bending of a custom designed chassis if needed.(all would be subcontracted but would be at a minimal cost charge). All held to close tolerance if needed. +/- .010. I don't know beans about an electrical chassis, but I can laser cut, engrave and bend to anyones specifications or drawings, and make it look just like the picture. It's what I do.
> I'm just throwing all this out there and it will be up to the organizing commitee to see if these resources need to be tapped.


urko - send me an email. Always looking into new suppliers. [email protected]


----------



## JMC Amps

keeperofthegood said:


> Evolution, that is what it is about


I like your style, Keeps!

That’s what got me into amp building and where I am today. Of course it was more of a DE-evolution because I started with tweaking 100W Marshalls and worked my way down the wattage scale. But once you get into it, it’s an addiction!

A Champ-style project would be perfect for a workshop, and many can be had fairly in-expensive. The stock champ topology, however, doesn’t leave much room for “evolution” in the way of tube sockets, chassis size and transformers. 

If you had two octals and six 9pin sockets, a little beefier power supply and heater winding, and say a Hammond 125E OT, you could “evolve” from stock champ into parallel SE, add an FX Loop, reverb circuit (Hammond 125A) and front the whole thing with a two, three, or four stage preamp. With the 125E you could also transform your SE amp to Push-Pull, add switchable cathode to fixed bias, and even run 6V6s, 6L6s, EL-34s etc.

…hmmm, sounds like the champ is responsible for all tube amps as we know them today.

Go Champ!

-JMc


----------



## greco

coco said:


> urko - send me an email. Always looking into new suppliers. [email protected]


I hope you fellows are able to come up with some type of business arrangement. 

It is so very cool to see more Canadian made products/components.

Dave


----------



## keeperofthegood

:wave: Hey guys

There is another aspect that is going to be needed. Print Service. Anyone know or have or can do at cost or low cost Printing?

Because this is educationally focused as well as build focused, we would need print outs of the "tube manual" pages on the tubes used (and the alternates available too). Text books and kits do not come with Tube Data sheets otherwise, or the data sheets on each of the various component parts. For this to be "complete", a full presentation of "WHAT" is being used should be included. This will give participants a good understanding of what data sheets look like, how to read them, how to plan with them etc. But that involves printing, and I am SO far out of the loop for printing >,< 20 years ago, I'd sweet talk a secretary into running off a "dozen copies please" but I think that has changed over time >.<

None of the information is proprietary, all is readily available on-line too. But a good binder or spiral bound collected info block would be the cats meow!


----------



## bagpipe

keeperofthegood said:


> I am SO far out of the loop for printing >,< 20 years ago, I'd sweet talk *a secretary* into running off a "dozen copies please" but I think that has changed over time


Yeah, its now _*Admin Assistant.*_ Calling someone "a secretary" will get you a dirty look and no [email protected]


----------



## greco

bagpipe said:


> Yeah, its now _*Admin Assistant.*_ Calling someone "a secretary" will get you a dirty look and no [email protected]


Good one!!

I am the Admin Assistant in our business. 

Keeps...I can *copy* (not print) whatever you need. I could likely also get the pages put in cover stock with plastic edge binding OR could punch them and put them in 3 ring binders.

Let me know what you have in mind.

Dave, Admin. Assistant


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## Jim DaddyO

my printer can print both sides, colour and B&W, so it is at your service. Of course colour printing means it costs me more. Probably cheaper than a print shop though.

Jim
Ummm....Advertising and Public Relations (LOL)


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## keeperofthegood

greco said:


> Good one!!
> 
> I am the Admin Assistant in our business.
> 
> Keeps...I can *copy* (not print) whatever you need. I could likely also get the pages put in cover stock with plastic edge binding OR could punch them and put them in 3 ring binders.
> 
> Let me know what you have in mind.
> 
> Dave, Admin. Assistant





Jim DaddyO said:


> my printer can print both sides, colour and B&W, so it is at your service. Of course colour printing means it costs me more. Probably cheaper than a print shop though.
> 
> Jim
> Ummm....Advertising and Public Relations (LOL)



Great guys, we will see what we get, and get the PDF and JPG and GIF and whatever else to you Jim and maybe you can do up a really nice master copy printout and then Dave can do up a bound version?

Dave, either binding means is ok by me. As long as the pages can be opened out flat. We will need 6 inch rulers and coloured pencils for drawing load lines and the like on the data sheets to understand how the tubes are biased.

Keeps
Product Procurement or something like that :bow: LOL


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## greco

keeperofthegood said:


> *Keeps
> Product Procurement *or something like that :bow: LOL
> 
> *Jim
> Advertising and Public Relations * (LOL)


Oh no..what have I started now .....

Dave


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## coco

Unless you're planning to put together a kit, a good product should have good documentation included (theory, build steps, troubleshooting, layout, schematic etc.) Cost to print this is just a few dollars including large format colour layout and schematic.

However, any additional theory, etc, you might want to cover would be useful to have in print.


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## greco

coco said:


> Cost to print this is *just a few dollars *including large format colour layout and schematic.


Is this still the case for (likely) under 50 copies?

Thanks

Dave


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## coco

Yes, for sure. $1 per large colour 11X17, + $0.05- $0.08 / page so depends on the number of pages. For example. We have 55 for the Tweed & 75 for the TRIWATT so the cost is about $6 for the larger manual, $4.5 for the smaller. Thats assuming about 1000 pages.

The REAL cost is in the creation of a good manual - Priceless!!


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## greco

Just a reminder....

We continue to need a volunteer for the organizing committee. 

At this time, we are hoping to put together basic tube amp kits and offer them at reasonalble prices. 

Details are not yet available, as planning a workshop is a large and complicated task.


*Please email me if you would like to be on the organizing committee (email address is in signature)*

Thanks

Dave


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## keeperofthegood

:wave: THIS IS YOUR FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD BUMP


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## greco

keeperofthegood said:


> :wave: THIS IS YOUR FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD BUMP


Thanks Keeps. 

As of tonight, John has volunteered to be on the organizing committee. Thanks John.

(stupid here didn't ask him what user name he goes by in the GC forum kqoct)

We now have a committee of 6.

If we need more help, we will certainly be asking for more volunteers.

Cheers

Dave


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## JHarasym

greco said:


> didn't ask him what user name he goes by in the GC forum


I'm *JHarasym*
Looking forward to working on amps (without electrocuting myself).


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## greco

JHarasym said:


> I'm *JHarasym*
> Looking forward to working on amps (without electrocuting myself).


Thanks John

Cheers

Dave


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## keeperofthegood

JHarasym said:


> I'm *JHarasym*
> Looking forward to working on amps (without electrocuting myself).



:wave: Welcome Aboard!


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## greco

greco said:


> We now have a committee of 6.
> 
> If we need more help, we will certainly be asking for more volunteers.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


I am removing my email address from my sig. 

When/if we need more volunteers, we will bump this thread.

Cheers

Dave


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## ccuwan

I was following this tube amp building workshop thread and it came to a complete stop. Did you go off line with it or did it simply die. 

If it is still happening I would like to learn more.

Thanks
Ray


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## JHarasym

A committee has been formed to develop the workshop. We'll post updates here.

We are currently sorting out course content, venue/location, and instructor. It probably wouldn't happen before May/June at the earliest.

I recommend subscribing to this thread so you get an email when posts appear.

Thanks for your interest.

John


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## greco

I'm bumping this thread to give it a bit more exposure...just in case other forum members are wondering what happened. 

Cheers

Dave


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## ccuwan

*A vote for the Tramp*

The earlier offer from Stephen at Trinity amps is looking interesting. I've been watching the design process for their new Tramp amplifier and there is likely to be some sound bites soon as they are now fine tuning. This amp design looks like it will be simple for the newbes like me, reasonably priced for all and should be a fine sounding amplifier. 

If I read Stephen's earlier email correctly, Trinity might be in a position to cut us a deal for a quantity of kits and provide the training/instruction. I don't think it gets any better than that. Good for us for the obvious reasons but also good for Trinity as they have the opportunity to work directly with customers and learn the gaps that need to be filled in the instruction manuals etc. Might be a win win.


This is the Trinity thread I have been following:
http://www.trinityamps.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1887

Ray


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## keeperofthegood

ccuwan said:


> The earlier offer from Stephen at Trinity amps is looking interesting. I've been watching the design process for their new Tramp amplifier and there is likely to be some sound bites soon as they are now fine tuning. This amp design looks like it will be simple for the newbes like me, reasonably priced for all and should be a fine sounding amplifier.
> 
> If I read Stephen's earlier email correctly, Trinity might be in a position to cut us a deal for a quantity of kits and provide the training/instruction. I don't think it gets any better than that. Good for us for the obvious reasons but also good for Trinity as they have the opportunity to work directly with customers and learn the gaps that need to be filled in the instruction manuals etc. Might be a win win.
> 
> 
> This is the Trinity thread I have been following:
> http://www.trinityamps.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1887
> 
> Ray


I have heard lots of good about the Trinity Amps. I have also followed that thread and a couple others on the Tramp. 

The only reticence for me has been what the pricing of kit + live instruction might be (or what kind of instruction is going to be given, ie building it vs learning why its built this way). I do not wish to be crass, however many of us are on tight budgets this year  so it will be interesting to see what the final dollar value will be.

As to the amp and instruction, for all I have heard, I would have no worries on either count, I would expect something quite stellar in both categories  

ALTHOUGH I would prefer a NEON power-on lamp kkjuw


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## ccuwan

Your point is valid Keep. It really boils down to cost for all of us and there really has been no indication yet of where that will ultimately land. I guess the ball is in Trinity's court and they obviously need additional time to determine what the cost may be. I would hope that Trinity could provide a graduated cost based on quantity and then put the ball in our court to grow the participation. 

I think whomever might lead the sessions would have to appreciate that our intent is not only to come away with something we are proud of but as well to understand why. I think like any teach/learn situation, the quality of instruction is a bit of a crap shoot. I expect as well that if a Trinity instructor understands our expectations, and has some good communication skills, it couldn't get much better.

My personal thoughts are that I would be happy to leave with the raw amp and would ultimately build a head cab for it. A plus for Trinity and the participants is some will likely want to buy a cab and speaker over and above the kit.

Thanks for your thoughts, I'm glad I'm not the only one watching,

Ray


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## JHarasym

The committee is investigating various options for the course, including Trinity's offering, and will report if any savings are available to forum members once the info is known.


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## ccuwan

The ball is absolutely in the committee's court and I wait on your decisions. 
Thanks for the effort you are putting in. 
I hope I was not out of line with my thoughts.


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## greco

ccuwan said:


> I hope I was not out of line with my thoughts.


Not at all !! 

Thanks for posting your thoughts.

Cheers

Dave


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## Vintage_Groove

I just read most of this thread today. I'm assuming you folks are all going to work on building a guitar tube amp? 

Is there a big difference in building an all tube *bass* amp?


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## greco

I'm not sure. 

I think that you would want a fairly big output transformer and quite a few more watts than a Champ clone has to offer.

You might want to start a new thread with your question.....we could all learn from this.

Cheers

Dave


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## keeperofthegood

Vintage_Groove said:


> I just read most of this thread today. I'm assuming you folks are all going to work on building a guitar tube amp?
> 
> Is there a big difference in building an all tube *bass* amp?



That is a "yes and no" answer.

As I understand it the Fender Bassman was intended to be a Bass Amp, only six stringers loved it.

Now, I've not done a HUGE amount of research yet on Bass amps, but it is my understanding the differences are in the filter caps used in the signal path (not the power supply ones) and the power of the output stage and finally the speaker itself. I don't know if or how different the output transformers are. But as far as the rest goes, both amp types are the same.

I would love to hear from some of the amp tech experts though, my gut tells me that a bass amp mod shouldn't be too difficult though


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## Wild Bill

keeperofthegood said:


> That is a "yes and no" answer.
> 
> As I understand it the Fender Bassman was intended to be a Bass Amp, only six stringers loved it.
> 
> Now, I've not done a HUGE amount of research yet on Bass amps, but it is my understanding the differences are in the filter caps used in the signal path (not the power supply ones) and the power of the output stage and finally the speaker itself. I don't know if or how different the output transformers are. But as far as the rest goes, both amp types are the same.
> 
> I would love to hear from some of the amp tech experts though, my gut tells me that a bass amp mod shouldn't be too difficult though


For the same power, a bass output transformer ends up about a third bigger and heavier than a regular guitar OT. This is because there is so much more energy in bass notes, i.e. below 100 hz.


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## greco

Wild Bill said:


> For the same power, a *bass output transformer ends up about a third bigger and heavier than a regular guitar OT*. This is because there is so much more energy in bass notes, i.e. below 100 hz.



I was reasonable with my answer....I am learning. ....thanks to you, Wild Bill.

Cheers

Dave


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## keeperofthegood

greco said:


> I was reasonable with my answer....I am learning. ....thanks to you, Wild Bill.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


Indeed Dave!

I am going to PM you a link to some photos. Easier than hand typing out. It is a page in an old text book I read last night. I think it will help with this question too.

Certainly it does mean that a Bass mod is not an over-complicated thing to do on an amp design and is not outside of the scope of the project. This is good news for participants as it means more people can participate.


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## keeperofthegood

Ok, this is NOT the best approach, and photobucket reduced my image size considerably but I think it is still readable. This is one segment of a chapter on amplifiers in my text book. This rapidly deals with building a pentode amplifier, something I have found most texts shudder to even mention. The level of stupid is astounding in text books "_the calculations are too complex for this text and it is recommended you just use the graphs to select parts_" meh educational posers.

HOWEVER there is the answer to frequency response of the amp. The last paragraph  Though, for Bass guitar, what IS the lowest low frequency you want to have in terms of linear response? Would 50Hz do it, or should it be down to 20 or lower?


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## Zeegler

I just read this thread for the first time, and I'm very interested. I'll be checking back to see if and when all the details are hammered out.


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## pughwilliam

Me too. I'm in Quebec though so a lot depends on dates etc.

William Pugh


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## Roughshod

I am interested in this as well. I hope this gets off the ground!


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## greco

The planning committee is still working on making it happen.

Cheers

Dave


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## Tarbender

Thanks for the update Dave... looking forward to hearing about it.


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## Amped3090

I have been following this thread for a while and am very interested. This is a great idea and I am hoping the location is close enough to me that I can attend, keep up the great work.


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## the-patient

I'm waiting anxiously for details! Count another name on that list for prospective attendees! That's depending on location and my schedule of course.


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## keeperofthegood

the-patient said:


> I'm waiting anxiously for details! Count another name on that list for prospective attendees! That's depending on location and my schedule of course.


We are in South Ontario in the GTA generally. One aspect has been the desire to maintain a location on "the beaten path" with the GO system the most economically feasible.


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## the-patient

Yeah, being in London, I don't really have access to the GO system, but I mean Toronto and the GTA in general are all pretty reasonable for me. 

Hope the planning is going well!


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## coco

I don't want to hijack this thread, so this is just an update since Trinity Amps and the Tramp was mentioned.

We do plan to offer an amp building course based on the Tramp. The design is almost final and some clips are coming soon. There is a thread on our forum if anyone is interested. 

trinityamps.com :: View Forum - Tramp

We have a venue and course outline that we think is in generally line with what people have asked for. 

, It takes a long time to put this sort of thing together - and to make it viable for all. Out of respect for this forum, please post your inquiries on that thread and not here.

trinityamps.com :: View topic - Amp Building Course

Updates will be on our forum and here if the committee deems appropriate.


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## greco

coco said:


> It takes a long time to put this sort of thing together - and to make it viable for all.


I'll drink to that..and maybe because of it also !



coco said:


> Updates will be on our forum and here if the committee deems appropriate.


Personally, I'd like to see updates in this forum also.

Are you getting closer to a location and a cost?

Cheers

Dave


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## coco

We have a first location - West End of Toronto. We were hoping for April but not sure we can do that since the design is still in a bit of flux. Price TBD but discount for GC & Trinity Amps members. Kit cost & options still TDB.


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## Zeegler

Well, I'm glad it's not in April, because I need a little more notice than that, and I am going on vacation in April too.


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## ccuwan

*Count me in*

This looks good to me and I hope to be in the first session. Been watching the Tramp threads at Trinity waiting anxiously. Like the discount part too!!


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## brimc76

Count me in too.


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## urko99

Hey Keeps, I just PM'ed you about the chassis. get back to me when you can.


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## keeperofthegood

urko99 said:


> Hey Keeps, I just PM'ed you about the chassis. get back to me when you can.


I got it, it is being put before the members and I will do you up a photoshop layout. Do you do photoshop psd files, or would tiff or jpg or png be better?


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## urko99

A pdf would be preferable. Thanks


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## Lincoln1

Hey just found this thread. I'd love to attend so keep me posted.


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## Jim DaddyO

There is a lot of "behind the scenes" business going on trying to put it all together. Progress is coming along nicely with our agenda. Keep tuned in, and someone will add an update here and there. Most of the stuff going on is rather mundane, such as sourcing parts, tweaking designs, etc. Kinda boring to post about. But Keeps is working his little butt off at it and is spending huge amounts of time and energy to get it together. The guy deserves a merit badge of some sort.


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## greco

Jim DaddyO said:


> There is a lot of "behind the scenes" business going on trying to put it all together. Progress is coming along nicely with our agenda. Keep tuned in, and someone will add an update here and there. Most of the stuff going on is rather mundane, such as sourcing parts, tweaking designs, etc. Kinda boring to post about. But Keeps is working his little butt off at it and is spending huge amounts of time and energy to get it together. The guy deserves a merit badge of some sort.


Thanks for doing this post Jim....much appreciated. 

*keeperofthegood * certainly does deserve a medal for all of the work he has done and the hours he has spent on this project. 
Heck, he deserves a medal just for responding to all of my stupid questions and comments.

Keeps...our collective hats are off to you, sir.

cheers

Dave


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## amp boy

Interested as well i am.
green eggs and ham.


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## keeperofthegood

I am mortified with my embarrassments!


 Thanks guys, much appreciated and this really is fun!!


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## keeperofthegood

I cannot BELIEVE I did the post before this one!

OMG

HOW HORRIBLE!

Well now, if you feel your tone is lacking, you amp just doesn't have the punch it used to have and you feel you need a change. Go talk to Wild Bill and get your amp serviced already!

If you simply want something to practice with, to learn with, to play with, that wont kill your aged grandmother or give your neighbor reason to call the cops, concider joining in on our project here. We are not out to build the better rocket, or the loudest bomb, but we do want to set you up and set you on the path of learning and an education is for life!


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