# Deluxe Reverb Reissue reliability?



## Gene Machine (Sep 22, 2007)

Hey all. I'm looking at buying a used DRRI. I don't have much experience with reissue Fender amps. How are they for reliability and being worked on? Typically I prefer hand-wired stuff, as it can be more easily fixed. But if it doesn't break, then no worries about fixing it.

thoughts? thanks in advance.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Just because something is hand wired does not mean it is more easily fixed. 

As far as the reissues, the '65s will be fine. The '68s should be, but the early ones had a rattle issue (that was later resolved) so if you are looking at the Silverface reissue make sure it isn't an early one.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

Never heard of any widespread issues. And Fender sells a LOT of those amps. You see them in backline setups pretty often too.


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

colchar said:


> Just because something is hand wired does not mean it is more easily fixed.



Yes it is.


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

Gene Machine said:


> Hey all. I'm looking at buying a used DRRI. I don't have much experience with reissue Fender amps. How are they for reliability and being worked on? Typically I prefer hand-wired stuff, as it can be more easily fixed. But if it doesn't break, then no worries about fixing it.
> 
> thoughts? thanks in advance.



Wich one ? Year ? 
Run away from Custom Deluxe Reverb series.
65 DR would be very good one.


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

"Just say no" to pcb tube amps...


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## Latole (Aug 11, 2020)

tonewoody said:


> "Just say no" to pcb tube amps...


I disagree, I like more P to P amps but many PCP amp are very good.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

No issues with the DRRI here. Ive had mine for 13 years now. No issues with PCB amps either. I don't find them any less reliable than hand wired ones. I have a The Twin which I gigged with for many years. I've only had that serviced 3 times in the last 25 years I have had it. And that amp went through a lot.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

tonewoody said:


> "Just say no" to pcb tube amps...


Not necessarily. When it comes to this mass produced pcb crap they put in fender amps I'd say yes avoid. I've had Tone King amps with PCB that were excellent and easy to work on. I had a Tone King metropolitan that had a tube go in it and take some things with it. The tech was super impressed with the build quality and easily made the repairs.
AS for the Fender deluxe reissue, I've had 2 experiences. A few years ago I bought a new 65 DRRI. I had it home for a day and it died. I took it back and decided to go a different route. The 2nd experience was a 68 custom deluxe that I rented from Long and McQuade because my amp was having a problem. It kept cutting out on the gig then finally went down. Was a bad gig. Had to plug in to the lead singers acoustic amp.
So basically I have not had good luck with the Fender reissues. Not sure if it had anything to do with the PCB thing.
Several years ago I bought a 63 Fender reverb tank reissue. It broke down on me. I took it back to Long and McQuade to have them fix it under warranty. I waited several weeks. When I got it back it was DOA. They fixed it again. This time it lasted a couple weeks and died again. I took it back and exchanged it for the Dr Z Zverb. I'm not sure if the Fender reverb tank was PCB or not.
The one thing I know about the cheaper PCB amps like the Fenders as opposed to a quality amp that incorporates PCB is that Fender does things like mounts the tube sockets on a PCB board or something like that. The heat from the tubes kills them.
The difference between Fender and Tone King is, everything Fender does is to save money using the cheapest components possible. The PCB components used by Tone King are high quality and the use of them provides more consistency in the build.
I'm sure if you're a home player only or baby the amp, being extra careful the Fender DRRI should be fine but it won't last 50-75 years like the vintage ones that are still around.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Gene Machine said:


> Hey all. I'm looking at buying a used DRRI. I don't have much experience with reissue Fender amps. How are they for reliability and being worked on? Typically I prefer hand-wired stuff, as it can be more easily fixed. But if it doesn't break, then no worries about fixing it.
> 
> thoughts? thanks in advance.


I‘ve had the ‘65 DRRI for a few years now. No issues. This is the most sold amp in the world so you’ll be ok.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

The reissue has been made for about twice as long as the original now. And probably outsold the original 4:1, quite possibly 10:1. Very reliable, considering those numbers.

And there is absolutely no guarantee that a PCB amp will be harder to work on than a turret board constructed (what most people mistakenly call p-to-p) amp. That's just a big ol' internet myth, promoted by people with little to no experience in the matter. There are good and bad designs and assemblies in both camps, or else PCB builds would have died decades ago.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

guitarman2 said:


> I've had Tone King amps with PCP that were excellent and easy to work on.


Didn't realize you needed Angel Dust to use a Tone King


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

BlueRocker said:


> Didn't realize you needed Angel Dust to use a Tone King



You don't. As I said it just makes it easier to work on them.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Latole said:


> Yes it is.



Bollocks.

If a hand wired amp looks like those pictures you see of telephone poles in India (and we've all seen pics of amps that look like that) and the PCB amp is well laid out, the hand wired amp will not be easier to repair. It is all about the design and execution/implementation not the format.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

tonewoody said:


> "Just say no" to pcb tube amps...


Dumb comment.

Marshall has been doing it since the early '70s, as have some other big names.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Latole said:


> Yes it is.


No it isn't.  True point-to-point can be worse to work on than any other type of amp known to man.

A big part of the problem with modern circuit board construction is the thickness of the copper traces. The traces are so thin they may not handle a single desoldering of a component.
This is not a fault of the type of construction, but the material used to make the boards.
Well designed amps with good quality circuit boards are a pleasure to work on.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Fwiw we hauled 2 reissue twins around north america for 3/2 years respectively without issues. And thats 90 gigs a year in various climates.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

jb welder said:


> No it isn't.  True point-to-point can be worse to work on than any other type of amp known to man.
> 
> A big part of the problem with modern circuit board construction is the thickness of the copper traces. The traces are so thin they may not handle a single desoldering of a component.
> This is not a fault of the type of construction, but the material used to make the boards.
> Well designed amps with good quality circuit boards are a pleasure to work on.


I concur. I've got a couple of true p2p amps, one of which uses primitive component level PCB-predecessors to replace certain parts. They are literally 3-4 discrete components in goop, to make them 1 piece units. Vintage Ampegs used them too, but their name escapes me.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Budda said:


> Fwiw we hauled 2 reissue twins around north america for 3/2 years respectively without issues. And thats 90 gigs a year in various climates.



I'm sure we can all come up with experiences at different ends of the spectrum. When I gigged full time in the 80's\90's I used mostly vintage fender amps (they were just called used amps then) and Peavy tube amps which I don't know if they were pcb or not, though I don't think so. I was an animal with my gear. I man handled that stuff. Threw it in the air in the back of the bus, no road cases, etc. They weren't with out their problems but some of those issues I could fix my self or we almost always had an handy guy in the band with some electrical knowledge that could fix it.
By the time these cheap crappy component Fender amp reissues came out I wasn't working full time. But even part time I never got a chance to use them as I said the reliability didn't even work for me out of the gate. But I imagine if you got a decent one you'd still have to treat it with kid gloves and pack them gently. I just don't see how they'd have the durability of a heavier built amp. And thats what it really comes down to. Its not the fact that they're PCB. Its that those mass produced amps are made cheaper over all.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

cboutilier said:


> 3-4 discrete components in goop, to make them 1 piece units. Vintage Ampegs used them too, but their name escapes me.


Those P.E.C. things? I think some old Gibson's had them too. Plastic Encapsulated Circuit (or components?) I think it stands for, though it could have been a brand name.

@guitarman2 as far as I know, almost all Peavey stuff used circuit boards. Maybe some very early prototypes didn't.

Eyelet board (which is not true point-to-point) is probably my personal fave type construction, the traditional vintage Fender construction method. Although a well thought out circuit board amp designed to be serviced is even easier to work on.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

jb welder said:


> @guitarman2 as far as I know, almost all Peavey stuff used circuit boards. Maybe some very early prototypes didn't.


Maybe they were more ruggedly built than the mass produced amps of today. I know I was rough on them as well and I don't recall having any more issues with them than the old Fenders I was using.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

jb welder said:


> Those P.E.C. things? I think some old Gibson's had them too. Plastic Encapsulated Circuit (or components?) I think it stands for, though it could have been a brand name.
> 
> @guitarman2 as far as I know, almost all Peavey stuff used circuit boards. Maybe some very early prototypes didn't.
> 
> Eyelet board (which is not true point-to-point) is probably my personal fave type construction, the traditional vintage Fender construction method. Although a well thought out circuit board amp designed to be serviced is even easier to work on.


That's the name! Eyelet boards are nice, and I'm rather fond of turret board construction too.


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

colchar said:


> Just because something is hand wired does not mean it is more easily fixed.


Seriously?


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## Gene Machine (Sep 22, 2007)

Latole said:


> Wich one ? Year ?
> Run away from Custom Deluxe Reverb series.
> 65 DR would be very good one.



It's a Blackface '65 RI. But it's at least 8 years old, he's not the original owner, the guy hasn't changed the tubes in it, and he used to gig it. So I'm a little bit leary of that. 

He wants $950 for it, I'll be around $200 just to put new tubes in it, at which point I'm starting to get close to a new one, with warranty. I'm thinking I'll pass for now and keep looking.


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## Gene Machine (Sep 22, 2007)

I've repaired my own amps before, and MUCH prefer a handwired turret board construction. I had to change a diode on a Peavey Delta Blues and it was brutal. I thought the PCB assembly would break just taking it out of the chassis. Gotta be super careful not to burn the traces off (as someone mentioned, they are often very thin). God forbid there is a surface-mount component. High fail-rate items like input jacks have to be de-soldered from the board, ugh. I fixed an old Traynor PCB amp from the 70s (the one that's like a Twin), and it was pretty easy, big traces, lots of room on the board.

I get it, not all PCB construction sucks. But that's why I'm asking about the failure rate. If it doesn't break, it's not an issue.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

Gene Machine said:


> that's why I'm asking about the failure rate. If it doesn't break, it's not an issue.


It's important to think of the _rate _(%), rather than how many broken ones we hear about. Some of these amps, you see a lot of guys posting about problems, but they've made and sold a bajillion of them. Not a lot of guys post about the ones that don't break. 
If they're still building them after many years, the actual rate of failure is probably not bad. There are magic numbers of % failures that have to be maintained for warranty costs. If it gets too bad they do a re-design or ditch the model.


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

Failure on a gig is likely.
Plastic input jacks soldered to pcb... 

Kind of like plastic bumpers on a car. They work great if you don't drive anywhere.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

tonewoody said:


> Failure on a gig is likely.
> Plastic input jacks soldered to pcb...
> 
> Kind of like plastic bumpers on a car. They work great if you don't drive anywhere.


False. They are metal input jacks and are not board mounted.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

Problem with a PCB board is the traces. If one breaks, it’s hard to find, hard to repair. Point to point is just components connected to one another.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

1SweetRide said:


> Point to point is just components connected to one another.


...and eyelet boards tidy up that potential rat's nest and make mods/repairs much easier.


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## Chito (Feb 17, 2006)

I have gigged with Fender amps at least the last 25 years and I have never had issues with what is being said here. I had an issue with my DRRI but that was because it was plugged into a faulty power conditioner. And since then I haven't had any issues at all. I got mine in 2007 and I've been gigging with it since then.


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## gtrguy (Jul 6, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> False. They are metal input jacks and are not board mounted.


Looks like PCB mounted and plastic to me... Only the $3500 '64 Custom version has the old school build.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

gtrguy said:


> Looks like PCB mounted and plastic to me... Only the $3500 '64 Custom version has the old school build.
> View attachment 336596


I needed. I’ve had some amps where the inputs and back connections even had plastic nuts.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Oh yes, the old 'PCB's are bad' myth. Gorilla uses PCB, therefore bad. 

But Mesa also uses PCB. And Vox and Fender and Marshall and Orange. And Fryette, Soldano and a few other boutiquie builders. It's a logical way to get a consistently solid build, something 'hand-wired' doesn't always achieve. Simply put, any pro gear I've opened up has pro-level PCB construction. You know, like a space shuttle or military fighter might have.

I love this note, found inside a VHT (Stephen Fryette).













Gene Machine said:


> It's a Blackface '65 RI. But it's at least 8 years old, he's not the original owner, the guy hasn't changed the tubes in it, and he used to gig it. So I'm a little bit leary of that.
> 
> He wants $950 for it, I'll be around $200 just to put new tubes in it, at which point I'm starting to get close to a new one, with warranty. I'm thinking I'll pass for now and keep looking.


$200? Why? Preamp tubes don't wear out and a pair of power tubes might run you $50. A spare rectifier tube is a good idea but I wouldn't change the one it comes with unless it doesn't work. Funny enough, the rectifier tube is the only thing that failed in mine in 10 years.


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## Gene Machine (Sep 22, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> Oh yes, the old 'PCB's are bad' myth. Gorilla uses PCB, therefore bad.
> 
> $200? Why? Preamp tubes don't wear out and a pair of power tubes might run you $50. A spare rectifier tube is a good idea but I wouldn't change the one it comes with unless it doesn't work. Funny enough, the rectifier tube is the only thing that failed in mine in 10 years.


I'm not wearing a tin-foil hat, and I don't immediately write-off a PCB, hence my question about reliability and issues with the amps. I have experience with these things, I'm not an idiot and I have worked on amps. If the amp has a history of reliability, I have no issue with a PCB. However, some amps do have a lot of issues. I don't have any personal experience with Deluxe Reverb Reissues, but do have experience (bad) with Princeton Reissues (several other used tube amps, Traynor, Peavey) which also makes me cautious.

A 8+ year old tube amp with no tube changes and questionable pedigree plus a statement of "i gigged it for years" from the current owner makes me wary, as I've had to replace a set of tubes on an amp before and it's not a trivial cost. Tubes do wear out, and are susceptible from damage if the amp is not handled properly. Maybe you're willing to make that kind of investment, feel free. I'm not, I'm more cautious. 

BTW, a fresh set of tubes from thetubestore.com has a "value" set for the DR as $160USD. And I can buy a new DRRI from L&MQ for less than $1400 (with a warranty, fresh tubes, and a 30 day return policy).









Fender Musical Instruments - '68 Custom Deluxe Reverb w/Creamback - Blue


Fender Musical Instruments - '68 Custom Deluxe Reverb w/Creamback - Blue




www.long-mcquade.com


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

gtrguy said:


> Looks like PCB mounted and plastic to me... Only the $3500 '64 Custom version has the old school build.
> View attachment 336596


Some damn fine build quality right there!


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

I've had my DRRI for at least 12 years. It's seen a lot of action and has never let me down. I've changed the power tubes once because I had a new set lying around and I've changed one 12AX7 because it was getting a tiny bit microphonic and I had a bunch of them lying around.

I would recommend this amp to anyone.


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## RBlakeney (Mar 12, 2017)

My deluxe doesn’t look anything like that inside.


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## jb welder (Sep 14, 2010)

All those Fender amps you see in backlines, they're almost always re-issues (pc board type). They're certainly not always breaking down during gigs.
I understand some don't like to work on them, but it's a matter of context. If you've been working on vintage eyelet Fenders, you might curse at having to work on one of these. But if you've been working on stuff like Peavey Classic 30's, or Traynor YCV's, you'd probably be crying tears of joy to have one of these on your bench.
And what about Marshall, they've always used plastic jacks, and have been using pc boards since before JCM800s. Never hear people complaining about that?


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## Gene Machine (Sep 22, 2007)

OK. well, y'all got me convinced on the reliability part. Thanks for that. I'm going to do some demo-ing in the shop. For the price of the used ones (when they can be found) it doesn't make sense to me to spend that much on used when a new one isn't that much more. Plus with Black Friday sale, there is a free extra year of warranty.

cool. Thanks all.


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## Gene Machine (Sep 22, 2007)

allthumbs56 said:


> I've had my DRRI for at least 12 years. It's seen a lot of action and has never let me down. I've changed the power tubes once because I had a new set lying around and I've changed one 12AX7 because it was getting a tiny bit microphonic and I had a bunch of them lying around.
> 
> I would recommend this amp to anyone.


cool thanks for this.


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## Cardamonfrost (Dec 12, 2018)

Latole said:


> Wich one ? Year ?
> Run away from Custom Deluxe Reverb series.
> 65 DR would be very good one.


Why is that? Currently I own both the 65 and the 68 (Princeton's) but have also owned the DRs. They are both excellent amps, as long as you realize the 68 is not a DR, its something entirely different.

Regarding PCB vs P2P, they are both the same, find the broken part and replace it.
C


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

Gene Machine said:


> Hey all. I'm looking at buying a used DRRI. I don't have much experience with reissue Fender amps. How are they for reliability and being worked on? Typically I prefer hand-wired stuff, as it can be more easily fixed. But if it doesn't break, then no worries about fixing it.
> 
> thoughts? thanks in advance.


A well designed pcb tube amp has the potential to be as reliable or even more so ..than any other build style. Off-board mounting of tube sockets, jacks, pots etc. should be part of the design to reduce mechanical stress on the board.

PCB can be extremely robust, high quality boards are thick and resilient. A well designed layout can consistently provide top notch results and be cost effective if you make a production run. Quality parts and components are also key to reliability.

So PCB vs Eyelet debate aside, here's my 2 cents on Fender DRRI reliability.
#1) All tube amps are going fail/require servicing eventually.
#2) Fender pcb/component quality is dubious. Board quality is not great.
#3) Fender designs their amps in modules, main board, control board etc. and connects them with ribbon cable to simplify production. Longevity is not a priority, ease of production takes precedence.

When Fender PCB designs fail, things can get nasty. Fender pcb quality doesn't handle a voltage spike gracefully.

Sure, you can/probably will repair it. What about the next repair? More money spent... What next? Maybe sell it before it the main board cracks or melts or .... another wimpy Chinese component craps out.

Alternatively,
If you had bought a Silverface or decent DR clone, you would probably feel ok about maintaining it.


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## epis (Feb 25, 2012)

jb welder said:


> All those Fender amps you see in backlines, they're almost always re-issues (pc board type). They're certainly not always breaking down during gigs.
> I understand some don't like to work on them, but it's a matter of context. If you've been working on vintage eyelet Fenders, you might curse at having to work on one of these. But if you've been working on stuff like Peavey Classic 30's, or Traynor YCV's, you'd probably be crying tears of joy to have one of these on your bench.
> And what about Marshall, they've always used plastic jacks, and have been using pc boards since before JCM800s. Never hear people complaining about that?


I never complaint working on these, except if somebody else did a work prior to me  LOL


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

All my top gear uses proper circuit boards with thick through-hole traces. Toroidal transformers and other non-mojo, non-voodoo heresies as well. Best sound. Most versatile. Absolute reliabilty so far. 

When I see "all hand-wired" it is not considered desirable. These are amps not Salvadore Dali paintings.


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## Cardamonfrost (Dec 12, 2018)

KapnKrunch said:


> All my top gear uses proper circuit boards with thick through-hole traces. Toroidal transformers and other non-mojo, non-voodoo heresies as well. Best sound. Most versatile. Absolute reliabilty so far.
> 
> When I see "all hand-wired" it is not considered desirable. These are amps not Salvadore Dali paintings.


Dali?! We could be so lucky, I had the misfortune of looking inside of one of my vintage Gibson amps, as point to point, hand wired as it gets.... it was more like a Jackson Pollock. My PRRI is a dream by comparison.

C


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## loudtubeamps (Feb 2, 2012)

tonewoody said:


> A well designed pcb tube amp has the potential to be as reliable or even more so ..than any other build style. Off-board mounting of tube sockets, jacks, pots etc. should be part of the design to reduce mechanical stress on the board.
> 
> PCB can be extremely robust, high quality boards are thick and resilient. A well designed layout can consistently provide top notch results and be cost effective if you make a production run. Quality parts and components are also key to reliability.
> 
> ...


Not exclusive to Fender PCB's . PITA...right here! 




























I was disappointed at the wattage rating on some of the critical resistors.


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## tonewoody (Mar 29, 2017)

loudtubeamps said:


> I was disappointed at the wattage rating on some of the critical resistors.


Brutal.
Negligent design is the root of all PCB cancer...


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## Markus 1 (Feb 1, 2019)

loudtubeamps said:


> Not exclusive to Fender PCB's . PITA...right here!
> View attachment 337611
> View attachment 337612
> View attachment 337613
> ...



In my experience, wattage rating is often an issue. (And I don't understand if you are Fender/ Marshall for instance that you're OK with a 1/4 or 1/2 watt resistor if you know that given voltage and current you are on the edge of tolerance with certain components in certain positions. I know: "to keep costs down"- and I respect it but how about reliability and the image of your brand?
And then also resistors that handle a lot of current- hence heat up- are sometimes mounted right on the board and not spaced away. So the board heats up and traces loosen etc


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