# Aniline dye questions



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

So I tested a piece of scrap with the dye (water based). I wet down the wood first and applied the dye. I tried to blend in a sunburst, but everything came out all splotchy. It is on ash, did I not pre wet it enough? I tried to copy what this guy does here
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesArticle.aspx?id=30182

just didn't seem to work as well. I am thinking of giving up on the sunburst as it may be beyond my skill level. Even when I tried a single tone there was some splotchiness. Any hints, will it even out with rubbing out the shellac? Should I maybe put a spit coat of shellac to seal it a bit first?


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

did you fill the ash?


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## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

trying to wipe on an analine dye stain is HARD. I doubt very much you will get acceptable results on your first try.

Finishing is a trade in itself and takes years to master... guys forget that. Just experiment on some scrap wood.

Water based analines will be harder yet than alcohol, as the NGR's (alcohol based) dont raise the grain, and dry much faster.

It can be done but no one said its easy!

AJC


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Did not fill the ash (was planning on doing that with shellac and 4f pumice), sanded to 220, pre-wet the wood (maybe not enough), and started applying the dye like in the video. It did not seem to "flow" the same way as in the video, that's why I am thinking I didn't wet it down enough (or maybe should have put a coat of shellac on). The ash just seemed to suck it up.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Looked at a bunch of other woodworking sites and they all say not to fill the grain first when using water based dyes.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

You will have to fill the grain in ash if you want a smooth finish. I would fill with paste filler that was either has stained or a close colour. 

Don't forget that the sample in the video is maple which acts totally different than ash. 

Try again as AJ says. Personally I would use NGR stains as well, but you already have some.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Some good reading here 

http://www.woodweb.com/knowledge_base/Noblotch_dying.html

Go down and read about Glue Sizing


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks Shortyus, by what they are saying, glue sizing is not to be used with water dyes as it will disolve the glue. So, what I gathered from it is to do a shellac sizing, that will not disolve with the water dye. Is that correct?
I have the water dye, and hate to think that I just threw away money, so I am determined to use it. I just did another small test piece with just the amber, then I buffed it a bit with a scotch brite pad, and put a coat of wax on it to see how it looked with a bit of sheen on it. Seems to be a bit closer to what I want. 
On the real thing, I intend to french polish it with shellac, using 4f pumice after 3 wash coats to grain fill. My logic (which may be incorrect) is that the raised grain from the water dye, in combination with the pumice, will give some material (the hairs) to help fill the grain. Then continue on with the polishing like this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a159BCBwZX4

Would still like to figure out a sunburst for it though, if you have been following the build, there is a maple core with ash front and back. I would like it if the seams are hidden. After I get the shellac (coming from wood essence, great folks), I will give it a try and see what happens.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Thanks Shortyus, by what they are saying, glue sizing is not to be used with water dyes as it will disolve the glue.


And you have the shellac right?


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Well, no, not yet. Wood Essence has sent it, it's paid for, Canada Post is a little less than efficient around here though. We have seen mail take over a week from London (an hour away) to get here.


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Well, no, not yet. Wood Essence has sent it, it's paid for, Canada Post is a little less than efficient around here though. We have seen mail take over a week from London (an hour away) to get here.


Ha .. it probably has to go to Ottawa first !!


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Did not fill the ash (was planning on doing that with shellac and 4f pumice), sanded to 220, pre-wet the wood (maybe not enough), and started applying the dye like in the video. It did not seem to "flow" the same way as in the video, that's why I am thinking I didn't wet it down enough (or maybe should have put a coat of shellac on). The ash just seemed to suck it up.


220 is generally too fine for acceptable finishing. That could be part of the problem. #2, did you sweat on the wood? If so you could be seeing sweat marks - trust me I've done it.kqoct


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

So, I should stop sanding at 150 grt? What is sweating on the wood? I wet it down before I apply the dye if that's what you mean. I am careful not to get my own sweat on it.
Although I have done one test piece without doing that(wetting it before the dye). Kinda sucks about the grit, I just spent a whole bunch of time going the other way to 400 grt.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Jim DaddyO said:


> So, I should stop sanding at 150 grt? What is sweating on the wood? I wet it down before I apply the dye if that's what you mean. I am careful not to get my own sweat on it.
> Although I have done one test piece without doing that(wetting it before the dye). Kinda sucks about the grit, I just spent a whole bunch of time going the other way to 400 grt.



Sweat is that clear salty fluid that trails off your forehead while you sand in the heat...kqoct 150 - 180 grit depending on species. You get things ultra smooth by sanding the sealer before the final clear coats.

Also, I would apply a filler to a porous wood like ash before applying the dye.

FWIW my frame of reference is industrial cabinet making/finishing so YMMV.

Matt


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## shoretyus (Jan 6, 2007)

I sand *all* my wood cabinets and stuff to 220 grit.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Yes, I understand about regular cabinet making finishes. I worked in a small shop for a short while. My arm still hurts from all the hand sanding. It's surprising what D/A's miss! lol. We scraped the sanding scratches with a paint scraper we modified. We sprayed sealer, finish sanded and sprayed the clear after that (can't remember what the final was, polyester I think).

I went to 400 on my next scrap/test piece because I was seeing a few sand scratches still. I _HAVE_ figured out that I have to add more dye powder to my water as it is a bit light.

This is a whole new world for me. That is why I am doing it. I am getting conflicting opinions on how to do what I want though. The materials are easy; Wood (ash and maple), water based aniline dye (amber honeytone and, if I can figure it out, a burst using ebony black), shellac (super blonde), and pumice (4F), also tru oil for the neck. It is the order of things that is the kicker. Do I put a light sealer coat of shellac before dying?

I know that after 3 coats of shellac, I start using pumice to grain fill. I also know it is going to take a long time to fill the grain in the ash. After grain filling, it is just padding layers of shellac until I build it up enough to get the gloss by spiriting off. Never done it before,it is proving to be interesting. I am enjoying the learning process. Thanks to everyone for the input!!!!


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

There's this incredible finishing guru who works at Conestoga College in the Woodworking faculty who's name is John Bus. If you send him a detailed email about what you are trying to accomplish and the materials you are using he will send you an equally detailed answer and it will be right.

Matt


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Hmmm, can't find a John Bus. Thanks for the effort though. Maybe he is on contract or something and doesn't have the same accessability as the regular staff??????????


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## RIFF WRATH (Jan 22, 2007)

I am no expert, but I think you need to confirm re: using shellac prior to stain/dyeing.........in my limited experience refinishing antiques I always stained prior to shellac..........and in my application(s) the shellac eventually acted as a filler...........


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

ya, that's what I thought Riff, it is the way i am leaning, just did a test piece sanded to 400 grt and it seemed to take better. Probably not going to get a burst though.


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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

Well, I figured out why John Buss is no longer on the Conestoga email list:

http://news.therecord.com/Obituaries/article/509226

He was a great teacher and will be missed.

Matt


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Thanks for the effort MrMatt. Sad, but he obviously lives on in memories and has affected people that remember him. I guess he did leave a legacy.


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## Lowtones (Mar 21, 2006)

Jim,

I only use water based analine dye. I never sand less than 320 before applying it. I have never pre wet the wood but had planned to try it after seeing the video. If you seal the wood before you apply the dye it will not take. Thats how I do edging. mask off around the the part you don't want to dye, apply sanding sealer let it dry and then apply dye. The water based dye will not adhere to the sealer. Did you apply the darker color first? Did you let it dry before applying the second color? Also remember that in the video he is using maple which is a lot more closed grain than ash. I still have the ash that you gave me so let me play with a piece of it this weekend. The good news is you can always sand it back to clear wood and any color remaining will just be accent. once you dye over it again. If you check out the link below you will see how the sealer preserves the wood from the dye around the edges.

IMG]http://guitarinsight.ning.com/photo/untitled2-1?context=latest[/IMG


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## ajcoholic (Feb 5, 2006)

Jim DaddyO said:


> Hmmm, can't find a John Bus. Thanks for the effort though. Maybe he is on contract or something and doesn't have the same accessability as the regular staff??????????


Wow, What a kick in the stomach! I am a Conestoga alumnus, I attended the woodworking center from 1992 to 1995 (did the three year woodworking program).

John was a mentor, and we became pretty good friends. I helped him with his model airplanes (my other hobby) and as well as being a wonderful teacher who taught me the fundamentals of wood finishing, he was also a great guy and even invited me over to his home for dinner, etc. 

I stopped in to the college last Sept. and visited with him and another instructor... my first visit back to the school in 13 yrs and I am glad I had a last chance to visit with him.

Wow... 

Sorry to hijack the thread - but thats seriously sad news.

AJC


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Still playing with it too Mark. I am finding that the overall finish of the dye is OK with the 400 grt sanding. I do not like how it lightens the grain though, I want it to pop a bit more. Next experiment is do the piece with the ebony, let it dry, sand, then try the amber. Maybe the grain will be more visible that way. I am giving up the burst look though, blotches too much. Or, I will do the whole thing ebony, and when I sand, just sand the faces front and back, and leave the radius and edge black. I would love to get the 2 colour burst look that StevieMac got on his strat (looks like it would even taste good), but I don't think I can get it at my skill level, or by hand. I really want a hand applied finish, not sprayed. Just stubborn I guess. lol. BTW, I am wearing my Newsom Guitars T right now! Thanks!


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

OK, I think I have it.
I think this is how I am going to do it. Sand to 150, grain fill (I thinned out some wood filler), sand to 220 (maybe 400), amber dye, black dye, let dry. Then sand starting with 150 ending at 400 until the white wood is showing but grain still has black in it. On this last round of sanding I am going to just do the front and back, leaving the edge and its radius to the faces so that area remains black. Not exactly a sunburst, but we will see when we get there. If I don't like the look, I can just continue sanding the edges. Then amber dye again. Dry, Scotch brite. Tons of patina and character!
Then it will time to start the french polishing process. 3 spit coats, pumice to finish the grain fill, build up the layers then spirit off.
I have about 10 or 12 colourful cauls from all the testing. Thanks to all for the input! It really got me on my way. The neck will be tru-oil instead of shellac.
Still waiting for my shellac (Canada Post moving at the speed of government),I can't get it together until it comes in and I can seal the wood on the interior of the guitar. Still have to carve a recess in the underside of the top for the controls too.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

So, here is what I have with a couple of coats of tru oil on it to give it some gloss.









The body will be shellaced in the end, and the test piece doesn't have all the sanding steps done, but this gives a pretty good idea of how the body colour will turn out. Nice glue caul!


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