# Modes vs Scales



## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

After doing my first online course about music theory, I jumped right into another set of lessons with Samurai Guitarist. The plateform is well built and easy to navigate.

Things started slow, the first 5 lessons were a walk in the park . When I saw the Ionian *shape* I was happy since I already knew about it but no, not exactly. Turns out I was playing the Ionian mode.

MORE CONFUSION!

What are the differences between modes and scales? (Explain my like I'm five y.o., please!)

Thanks for the help!

** Edit: I corrected my post Ionian scale -> Ionian shape. **


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## CathodeRay (Jan 12, 2018)

Can't blame ya. Most of the explanations out there are a mess. They actually complexify vs clarify.

Try this for starters. 









Sent from my A3_Pro using Tapatalk


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Thanks.
I did try to find some infos, but like you said, there was many contradictions or way more complex explanations.


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## bigboki (Apr 16, 2015)

I can recommend you following course
Making The Modes Easy! Pro Lead Guitar Course

it is right now 45CAD but Udemy offers discounts (big ones) quite often

hope this helps


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## player99 (Sep 5, 2019)

Try to get what I am layin' down.

A tetrachord is an ascending series of four notes. If you break the modes in to 2 tetrachords, there are only 4 different tetrachord patterns that are combined to make up the 7 modes. These 4 tetrachords are the ionian, dorian, phrygian and lydian 4 note patterns.

If you play the modes up one string starting at, say the 8th fret, and play each tetrachord using all 4 fingers then continue up playing the next tetrachord with 4 fingers, the patterns (modes) becomes easy to remember. There are 7 modes thus 14 terachords used, but only 4 *different* tetrachords.

This illustration of the ionian scale will hopefully help. Notice the first 4 notes are the same pattern as the next 4 notes. These two groups are the ionian tetrachord repeated.


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## CathodeRay (Jan 12, 2018)

Watch the video I posted up there ^^ again, starting at 1:17 or so. Repeat until you have an aha moment.
i.e., within a single key, you can choose a different root note - and that will create a different mode.

e.g.
Play the major scale in the key of C, but starting on D: D E F G A B C D - tada, you're playing the next mode, Dorian
Play the major scale in the key of C, but starting on E: E F G A B C D E - tada, you're playing the next mode, Phrygian
Notice how the mood radically changes even though you're still just playing all the notes in C major.

For the sake of your sanity, don't call Ionian a scale.
Ionian Mode is one of the modes, commonly called the Major scale.
Aeolian Mode is the mode commonly called the Minor scale.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

player99 said:


> Try to get what I am layin' down.
> 
> A tetrachord is an ascending series of four notes. If you break the modes in to 2 tetrachords, there are only 4 different tetrachord patterns that are combined to make up the 7 modes. These 4 tetrachords are the ionian, dorian, phrygian and lydian 4 note patterns.
> 
> ...


Thanks, that is a great trick to visualize and memorize the modes!

Dumb question : are modes just another "scale"?


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## knight_yyz (Mar 14, 2015)

I thought modes were scales with a certain note emphasized. IE 1st through 8th. Which note is emphasized decides the mode. so you can play the same scale in different modes.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

bigboki said:


> I can recommend you following course
> Making The Modes Easy! Pro Lead Guitar Course
> 
> it is right now 45CAD but Udemy offers discounts (big ones) quite often
> ...


Thanks, I will put that course on my list. I did the free one Berklee gives on EDx.


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## Stephenlouis (Jun 24, 2019)

Ti-Ron said:


> Thanks, I will put that course on my list. I did the free one Berklee gives on EDx.


Its 17 bucks right now.

Ive always thought of modes as the manner of playing scales and I remember them as " I Don't Particularly Like Modes A Lot" In a nut shell we have Modes because we can't have one scale.


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## bigboki (Apr 16, 2015)

I like John's teaching approach a lot. Also check his youtube channel: 








John Robson Guitarist


I'm just a chap who's played guitar since the 70s. In the intervening years I've made a living playing & teaching guitar in pretty much every style imaginabl...




www.youtube.com





and also his Patreon - for $3 a month he is providing a lot of fun and useful content


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

CathodeRay said:


> Can't blame ya. Most of the explanations out there are a mess. They actually complexify vs clarify.
> 
> Try this for starters.
> 
> ...



This is definitely the most succinct way of describing the difference between Modes and Scales. I think he did a great job of staying on point. And like he mentioned near the end, it would be a really long video for the full context and how they work. @Ti-Ron , when I started playing I learned the Major scale and all 7 positions started on each note on the neck. I made the mistake of considering them Modes theory wise. But at least for patterns (standard closed scale positions or forms), I at least recognized that the scale was starting on each of the 7 major scale notes which helped me to understand Modes. That took a long fucking time and I've forgotten half of what I knew. Just giving you an idea of where I started with the scales vs modes thing. That was before the Internet of course so you'll pick up shit waaaay faster.

If you want to actually pursue Modes, or get a better idea of what's up with them, this link helps. The Melodic and Harmonic Minor scales also contain modes. 

Music Modes: Major and Minor Modal Scales in Music Theory – Berklee Online Take Note


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## CathodeRay (Jan 12, 2018)

Dorian2 said:


> I learned the Major scale and all 7 positions started on each note on the neck.


Could you explain this a bit more?


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

CathodeRay said:


> Could you explain this a bit more?


It's in regards to positional playing on the guitar neck. Starting the major scale on each successive note by moving the scale positions up the neck. This link provides a perfect example of this concept.

The Major Scale in 7 Positions | Terence Wright Guitar

SO I learned those positions up and down the neck in different key sigs. But I made the mistake of assuming that these 7 positions were modes and not simply the major scale starting at a different point in the scale. Refer to @player99 's post on where the positions starting on the low E can occur as starting points, even though he's referring to tetra chords. Same thing when all is said and done. Just a different approach and look. It took a while to understand that the modes of the major scale (Ionian, dorian, phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, and Locrian) aren't simply the Major scale starting at a different point, or note on the scale. It's more about the relationship to the chords, particularly 7th and extended 7th chords, to the scale or mode and the modes or scales relationship to the quality of the chord (Major, Minor, diminished etc). I give the guys on the web a lot of credit for some of the explanations because it's really hard to explain in simple terms. There are a number of music theory concepts at work when you start considering context, key, major/minor, avoid notes (notes in a mode that clash with notes in a chord but aren't actually "avoided" as the word implies) etc. I found I had to really dig into the theory of all parts of music and guitar to even start to get a decent grasp of modal playing or vamping......a while ago at that.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

CathodeRay said:


> Can't blame ya. Most of the explanations out there are a mess. They actually complexify vs clarify.
> Try this for starters.


After listening to this video for a couple of time (like 10+ time), I think I start to understand the difference and the use of modes and scales.
I'll have to dig a little bit more to get comfortable with the concept.


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## CathodeRay (Jan 12, 2018)

Dorian2 said:


> SO I learned those positions up and down the neck in different key sigs. But I made the mistake of assuming that these 7 positions were modes and not simply the major scale starting at a different point in the scale.


Aha. So you're saying when you first started exploring this, you were under the wrong impression that modes were just positions on the fretboard for a given scale?

This really interests me because it's such a quagmire at first!

Sent from my A3_Pro using Tapatalk


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

I really enjoy my journey through musical theory but it's sometime puzzling!


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

CathodeRay said:


> Aha. So you're saying when you first started exploring this, you were under the wrong impression that modes were just positions on the fretboard for a given scale?
> 
> This really interests me because it's such a quagmire at first!
> 
> Sent from my A3_Pro using Tapatalk


Yes. I also thought the shape of each of the 7 positions of the Major scale were "the mode" I was in. But that was OK as it gave me a basic starting point to modes and the thought process had begun. @Ti-Ron , once you get a good grip on scale/chord relationships and how to apply them it'll gel into a semi understanding that never seems complete. It's a life long journey you've gotten yourself into.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Dorian2 said:


> Yes. I also thought the shape of each of the 7 positions of the Major scale were "the mode" I was in. But that was OK as it gave me a basic starting point to modes and the thought process had begun. @Ti-Ron , once you get a good grip on scale/chord relationships and how to apply them it'll gel into a semi understanding that never seems complete. It's a life long journey you've gotten yourself into.


Since I've started music theory at 36 y.o. I hope I will get it before I die!


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Ti-Ron said:


> I hope I will get it before I die!


It would certainly be advantageous if you could live beyond the age of 90 or so.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Just a little add on, Rick Beato had a 30 minutes of music theory over his Youtube channel. I've learn some neat little tricks!


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Without looking at any of the lessons, or properly reading the previous posts, I gotta say I can't understand the confusion. Any instructions from the good old days seems to simply assume that it's so easy to understand that no further explanation is required. Trust the internet to provide confusion.

*THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE* in the notes of scales and their modes. They are the exact same notes in whatever key, you simply "start and stop" at a different place in the scale. Sunday to Sunday is one week, Monday to Monday is one week. A mode is just the scale going from Tuesday to Tuesday or whatever day you happen to be on.

What is harder to understand is how to USE them, but that can be easy too.

Learn how to play chords in a scale: I-major, II-minor, III-minor, IV-major, V-major, VI-minor, VII-diminished, VIII-major. When you see these chords appear in the song you can try its corresponding mode in your composition or improvisation. Because all those _*chords*_ contain* only notes that are in that scale*, and all the _*modes*_ contain* only notes that are in that scale.*

The theory is simple. Keep it that way. Persevere and it will all eventually sink in. When you finally understand, then you can neglect practising it just like I do.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

@KapnKrunch , I have to disagree that the theory is as simple as starting a scale from each note of that scale and using a chord progression that fits diatonically in the scale as you suggest. Each mode has a unique sound quality and note choice due to how the mode is constructed in context with the major scale of the root note itself. For example, D Dorian is taken from the C Major scale. All the notes are the same. Simple enough...right?

Now let's have a look how this is constructed.

CMajor
C D E F G A B
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
CMaj Dmin Emin FMaj Gdom Amin Bdim (diatonic chord progression)

D Dorian
DEFGABC

We know that D Dorian is the mode based on the c major scale, and is diatonically within that scale a minor (Dm).

We build the natural minor scale like this: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

D natural minor can be used over the Dm chord
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
D E F G A Bb C

But wait a momento here, isn't D Dorian minor as well? Isn't it played over a Dm chord? Yes it is and yes it can. But there's one note in D natural minor that does not belong in the key of C major. Bb.

So the construction of the 2nd mode of the major scale is 1 2 b3 4 5 *6* b7 in context with the root note major scale (in this case D major).

Dmajor
1 2 3 4 5 *6* 7
D E F# G A B C#

D minor (relative minor of F major)
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
D E F G A Bb C


Well there's that goddamned Bb again that don't belong in the key of C so THAT can't be Dorian without making the 6th degree of the mode/scale a natural

1 2 b3 4 5 *6* b7

So in the Dorian modes case, the distinctive note or tone happens to be that natural 6 (B) instead of Bb which happens to be in D natural minor (relative minor to F Major which has 1 flat note - Bb). This note gives the mode a different tonal quality from natural minor which is something you may want in the song you play or write.

Here's a good blog that has a song included with each mode degree to give you an idear of how they sound when used appropriately.

Modes Explained: How to Use The 7 Modal Scales | LANDR Blog

* If I've made any glaring errors let me know as this is all right off the top of my head (pretty much).


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Pretty fancy. But the water is only muddy'd by contrasting modal with minors. 

Poor @Ti-Ron will never understand anything if we keep bringing up every possible exception. What's next: melodic minor, harmonic minor? Altered scales? Of course you are perfectly correct @Dorian2. But it's info overload at this point for the OP. 

Something to keep in mind for future study tho'. Thanks for pointing out the limitations of my explanation. Very important!


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

KapnKrunch said:


> Pretty fancy. But the water is only muddy'd by contrasting modal with minors.
> 
> Poor @Ti-Ron will never understand anything if we keep bringing up every possible exception. What's next: melodic minor, harmonic minor? Altered scales? Of course you are perfectly correct @Dorian2. But it's info overload at this point for the OP.
> 
> Something to keep in mind for future study tho'. Thanks for pointing out the limitations of my explanation. Very important!


I concur. Info overload indeed. The reason I contrasted the natural minor with the dorian mode is because of the key note difference between the 2 "minor scales" in context of the lowered and natural 6th. My stupid long example, IMHO, may also illustrate to @Ti-Ron and others that before going full on face first into modal music it may benefit the player to realize that there are certain basic rudiments and subtle differences in music that have to be fairly well understood, studied, practiced, and adhered to before going forward into those specific sounds at times. I think the link I provided is a pretty well thought out blog that at least demonstrates the sounds you can achieve with the mix of chord and note choice. Nobody said it was easy though. Far from it.


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

KapnKrunch said:


> Pretty fancy. But the water is only muddy'd by contrasting modal with minors.
> 
> Poor @Ti-Ron will never understand anything if we keep bringing up every possible exception. What's next: melodic minor, harmonic minor? Altered scales? Of course you are perfectly correct @Dorian2. But it's info overload at this point for the OP.
> 
> Something to keep in mind for future study tho'. Thanks for pointing out the limitations of my explanation. Very important!





Dorian2 said:


> I concur. Info overload indeed. The reason I contrasted the natural minor with the dorian mode is because of the key note difference between the 2 "minor scales" in context of the lowered and natural 6th. My stupid long example, IMHO, may also illustrate to @Ti-Ron and others that before going full on face first into modal music it may benefit the player to realize that there are certain basic rudiments and subtle differences in music that have to be fairly well understood, studied, practiced, and adhered to before going forward into those specific sounds at times. I think the link I provided is a pretty well thought out blog that at least demonstrates the sounds you can achieve with the mix of chord and note choice. Nobody said it was easy though. Far from it.


Yeah, maybe overwhelming, but it helps me to "see" or "understand" the value of musical theory. Like I said before, I was totally musicaly illetrate a couple of months ago. If that wasn't for the quarantine I would have never bat an eye at music theory by lazyness and ignorance. Now, I am more and more curious (and knowledgeable) about it.

Keep the discussion going, I like that. Maybe I don't get everything but who kown, Ti-Ron from the future may came back and get a good laugh about my ignorance. (Hi me from the future!)


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

This is a good thread.


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

seeing that there is a mode theme ongoing, here is a page from my book. Lots of info here and endless practise time. Listen for the variation in tone when playing thru the modes. The bottom line of the page you may find as a great warm up exercise


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## dgreen (Sep 3, 2016)

and what chords work best over modes? This should keep things relatively straight forward and help you out. 
Every other note (EON) of each modal scale allows you to determine the type of chord best suited over the particular scale


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

@dgreen Wow, thanks for the great ressources! Really appreciated! <3


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

So how's those scales n' Modes treating you @Ti-Ron ? Stuff starting to make sense and come together a bit?


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Necro bump!
One good thing that COVID19 brings to the table is time and motivation for musical theory Just finished Samuraiguitarist's rudiment formation.


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## CathodeRay (Jan 12, 2018)

Think I can justify this post-necro bump 



The other day I was thinking of a way of approaching modes more simply and practically:

What would happen if someone played two chords from a major scale that did NOT include the 1st chord, then improvise over that simple progression?

In my head I imagined playing just Dm, Am (i.e., the 2nd and 6th chords in C major) and improvising over that in the key of C.

I*n theory - I should naturally start playing the lead in D Dorian, even if I don't know what Dorian mode is.*

So I tried it, and yes, that's exactly what happens.

Dm becomes the root chord to the ear, and even though you might TRY to play in C major, note choice will gravitate to centering around the D note.

i.e., D E F G A B C D. ( D Dorian)

The mood is anything but major, even though all the notes are in C Major.

I think this may be a simple way of introducing & experimenting with modes in a group jam.
No one need announce that they're playing in a mode. It just comes naturally.

*_*

" I'm gonna play Dm, Am "
_"Hey, what's the key?"_
" C "
... and the lead player should just naturally play in D Dorian

(then maybe add a chorus of: C, G - uplifting)

*_*


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

No such thing as Necro bump for Modes and Scales. Great post Cathode Ray. That raised 6th "b" note is key to that sound. The Am can also be considered a dominant and changed to reflect that if you choose to do so. Just to add another sound...


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

In my mind, a scale is an exercise you practice in order to learn to play in a mode. When I took piano, I was asked to practice scales and arpeggios. These are physical exercises.

A mode is something you play music in. In most western music, it's defined by
1) a set of available notes with the intervals tone-tone-semitone-tone-tone-tone-semitone repeated in all octaves (i.e. all the white notes on a piano) and
2) a base note within that set of notes which is what CathodeRay is talking about above.

People use the term "scale" rather loosely and often to refer to modes but modes are pretty much agreed on. Major is a synonym for Ionian and minor is a synonym for Aeolian. The other modes afaik are referred to by their Greek names only.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Doug Gifford said:


> In my mind, a scale is an exercise you practice in order to learn to play in a mode. When I took piano, I was asked to practice scales and arpeggios. These are physical exercises.
> 
> A mode is something you play music in. In most western music, it's defined by
> 1) a set of available notes with the intervals tone-tone-semitone-tone-tone-tone-semitone repeated in all octaves (i.e. all the white notes on a piano) and
> ...


Are you saying the Major, natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor, and Pentatonic scales are simply physical exercises and don't use harmonic and melodic structure to produce music? How would you term the chromatic and the vast number of exotic "scales" that are common in other, non western cultures? What about the many "altered" scales used extensively in Jazz and fusion?


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## Doug Gifford (Jun 8, 2019)

Dorian2 said:


> Are you saying the Major, natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor, and Pentatonic scales are simply physical exercises and don't use harmonic and melodic structure to produce music? How would you term the chromatic and the vast number of exotic "scales" that are common in other, non western cultures? What about the many "altered" scales used extensively in Jazz and fusion?


Nope. I'd more likely try to avoid confusion and call those modes, too. Not just the seven we refer to as "modes" but generally any "system of musical tonality involving a type of scale coupled with a set of characteristic melodic behaviours" as Wikipedia calls them. Here, the author is referring to the scale as the available notes whereas mode implies behaviour, such as ending on a particular member of that scale, the tonic. So, the major "mode" uses the diatonic "scale" as does the minor but they have different characteristic melodic behaviours. The "harmonic minor" mode, however, uses a slightly different scale that makes the triad on the fifth major rather than minor.

If someone is talking about scales as modes that's fine, but for clarity of thought I prefer to use the word mode to include the ones you cite and any other other "scales" in western or other usage.

If I ask someone to play the natural minor scale, I'd expect them to play the tonic first and then up the scale and down the scale -- it's a specific thing. If I ask them to play (in) the Aeloian mode, I'm more likely to get a melody.

Mode (music) is an interesting read as is List of musical scales and modes which uses the words "scale" and "mode" more-or-less synonymously. That's certainly common usage but it confuses people who assume, reasonably, that "scales" thus defined and modes are different in some mysterious way when they aren't.

The word "scale" just means too many different things for my taste.

Now, maybe someone can tell me the word for the "A" part of an "AABA" song. The whole "AABA" is the chorus and the B is the bridge, but what's the A? Some terminology in music is very confusing.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

OK


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