# on CBC: "If you want to keep the local music scene alive, start shows earlier" - what do you think?



## bigboki (Apr 16, 2015)

On CBC there is an audio article that argues:
*If you want to keep the local music scene alive, start shows earlier*

If you want to keep the local music scene alive, start shows earlier

What do you think?

To be honest I completely agree.

yours truly
Bojan


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

I heard that when it was on and thought it was a great idea.

A lot of times I'll hear of a band coming that is on my to see list but then I realize it's on a weeknight at a bar which means it won't end until like 1am so I don't go.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

I don't disagree


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Back around 2008, I put a band together after not having played for awhile. When I realized I had to start playing at a local bar at 10 PM, I thought "I'm usually thinking about going to bed at that time" so ya, start playing earlier. Makes sense.


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

Guncho said:


> I heard that when it was on and thought it was a great idea.
> 
> A lot of times I'll hear of a band coming that is on my to see list but then I realize it's on a weeknight at a bar which means it won't end until like 1am so I don't go.


We went to see an Aussie hip-hop act at Revolution bar some day of the week, went for dinner, ticket said "doors open at 8pm.
I thought, great! Opening act 9pm, main 10:30ish.
The opener didn't start until 11:15.
Main act started around 1am (I wa s told, as we left cause of babysitter & being up for work the next day!)


Sent from my other brain.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Agree. Last band I played in I quit. My last night we were putting away gear in a blizzard at 4:30am. Those guys were all about "they have to be drunk to enjoy". So they would wait &wait &wait. The crowd came to expect it and started coming later &later &later. Vicious circle. Funny thing was, we were clearly the most in demand band in the area and could have done whatever we wanted and still got paid. Been hoping for some daylight gigs ever since. Hasn't happened.


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## Merlin (Feb 23, 2009)

I play in a big band that does a monthly Monday night gig. We start at 7:30, and I'm usually home by 11:00.

We get an interesting mix; older jazz fans and young swing dancers.


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

The local Legion starts their meat draws at 4 pm (used to be 5). The band plays a set, the meat draw and 50/50 takes about 45 minutes to an hour, then the band plays until 8 or 9 (sometimes later if they've kept the crowd). It's early, that's for sure, but everyone continues to a second party or goes home.

A local small house concert venue starts at 7:30 and runs to 10 or 11, depending on a variety of factors but it's never late.

For many years I had a bi-weekly nursing home gig with my guitar/violin duo. We got the residents all excited right before lunch. The word was they ate better, were more energetic, more inclined to go for a walk, etc. afterwards. It was a great regular practice for the duo as well. 

I love an early gig.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

A local bar jam has been struggling. There is a good turnout for a Thursday night jam that runs from 10:00 till closing. A Wednesday jam at the same time has been moving around between several bars struggling to draw a crowd. They changed it to 6:00 to 10:00 a couple of weeks ago and it is picking up, both with more musicians and more audience. It seems there is a late night crowd but only once a week and an earlier crowd also once a week. It looks like eventually the earlier time will have more success.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Kerry Brown said:


> A local bar jam has been struggling. There is a good turnout for a Thursday night jam that runs from 10:00 till closing. A Wednesday jam at the same time has been moving around between several bars struggling to draw a crowd. They changed it to 6:00 to 10:00 a couple of weeks ago and it is picking up, both with more musicians and more audience. It seems there is a late night crowd but only once a week and an earlier crowd also once a week. It looks like eventually the earlier time will have more success.


Our jam works well running from 8 till 11 or so. We get a good crowd that are there only for the music, but we keep a chunk of the wing night crowd if they like what they hear.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

I can't believe it's taken this long for people to clue in.


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## mario (Feb 18, 2006)

davetcan said:


> I can't believe it's taken this long for people to clue in.


The last time I went to the LMC (London Music Club) open jam night they penciled me in to get up on stage around 11:30 pm. Could not hang around that long considering I had to be at work at 7:00 am.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

mario said:


> The last time I went to the LMC (London Music Club) open jam night they penciled me in to get up on stage around 11:30 pm. Could not hang around that long considering I had to be at work at 7:00 am.


Exactly.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

KapnKrunch said:


> Agree. Last band I played in I quit. My last night we were putting away gear in a blizzard at 4:30am. Those guys were all about "they have to be drunk to enjoy". So they would wait &wait &wait. The crowd came to expect it and started coming later &later &later. Vicious circle. Funny thing was, we were clearly the most in demand band in the area and could have done whatever we wanted and still got paid. Been hoping for some daylight gigs ever since. Hasn't happened.


They were getting pissed at home and then coming out to the bar and drinking very little because it's so expensive. It's a wonder the bar owners can't figure it out.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

I was never much into live music as a spectator for that exact reason. Even as a band member (regardless what age I was), I always wished shows started and finished earlier.

It's one of the main reasons why I never go to live shows and why I no longer bother playing in bands. If I could be home by 10pm-ish, I'd be all over it!


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Guitar101 said:


> They were getting pissed at home and then coming out to the bar and drinking very little because it's so expensive. It's a wonder the bar owners can't figure it out.


Well, this was in the middle of an oil boom. Kids would buy a hundred dollars worth of drink tickets at the door of a community event, and leave the place full of untouched drinks and unspent tickets on the floor. So in their case it was nothing but some bullshit protocol the band leader had in his head. I know what you mean tho', and can certainly see it happening that way.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I think the concept is certainly worth a try. 
What are the downsides?


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Bars could have two shows a night. An early and a late show.


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## keithb7 (Dec 28, 2006)

Same over here. Don't go to jams. Too late to start. I awake M-F at 5:30 AM to pay the bills. I generally don't go to live music unless its a Friday or Sat night. Smaller town Canada attracts bigger acts, passing thru on their way to weekend shows in the big cities. So the Trews were here, Daniel Leslie, or Sloan for example on a Thursday night. Doors open at 8 of course. To sell drinks. The main attraction starts at 11 or later. No thanks. Got bills to pay.

Even the local jams. Jam is advertised to start at 9. Get there early to hopefully get an early slot. Nope. They just sell suds until 9:45 when the host band starts. Nope. Gotta go. The only damn people at the jams are hobby musicians. Who usually work full time. Have to get up early. Don't have time to commit to a gigging band. So they go to the jam to at least get a little thrill. Many have pricey quality gear largely due to their professions. They can afford a beer or two, or three, on any evening of the week, if they get home at a decent hour. Heck they'll even invite their gear buddies out.

Best jam I ever knew of? Sunday afternoon 2-5 PM at the Yale in Vancouver. Blues jam. Plenty of beer flowed on many occasions that I was there...."All The Way From Sacramento. Joe Chapel!"


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Our band (a cover band) has figured out that most people come an hour after we start playing. For a while, we would move our start time back to accommodate, but then people would still show up an hour after we start. So we went back to starting earlier and playing to an emptier room for the first set. I can see how bands might start later and later to try to have a crowd when they start, but our experience is that the room will be full by the end of the first set no matter when we start.

The one exception is the Legion. If the doors open at 7:30, there is a crowd by 7:45 and they'll be dancing by 8:15.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2017)

bw66 said:


> The one exception is the Legion. If the doors open at 7:30, there is a crowd by 7:45 and they'll be dancing by 8:15.


These venues should be utilized and promoted more than bars. IMO.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

laristotle said:


> These venues should be utilized and promoted more than bars. IMO.


I love playing legions and community halls. The crowds are always a lot of fun


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

I like the turn this thread has taken. Yeah bars are a drag in general. Legion? Community events? You bet! The most fun I ever have is at fund-raisers where we played for free. People on the floor waiting to dance and gone by 1:00.


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

I'm all for shows starting earlier.

Failing that, I'll settle for shows starting on time, not an hour later. I always make a point of being there 20-30 minutes ahead of time. One of my favorite concert memories was Joe Bonamassa at Theatre St-Denis several years ago. The show was supposed to be at 8:00. At 7:50 Joe and the band run to the stage and start playing! Patrons running through the aisles to their seats, all lights still on. It was hilarious. All those morons who like to show up _fashionnably_ late (or having a smoke outside) had to be escorted to their seats by the ushers with little flashlights and they missed half an hour of music.


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

As someone who used to run a couple jam nights you cant start before the hockey/football game was over or youll piss off that crowd which is usually the regs.

I originally scheduled it from 8-12 on Thursday nights and it was a huge success but there were times I was setting up while the football game was on (the screen was on the back wall of the stage) and it was made known that no music would be appreciated until the game is over. So if anyone is playing at a sports bar you at least have to wait unitl the first hockey game is over (9:30ish)


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

I don't think this article is talking about cover bands really.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Guncho said:


> I don't think this article is talking about cover bands really.


True, but I believe that almost ALL bands can do better if they start and finish at a reasonable hour (and on time).


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Moosehead said:


> .... So if anyone is playing at a sports bar you at least have to wait until the first hockey game is over (9:30ish)


I knew we would eventually hear of a reason that is not conducive to starting early.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

We played an art space in providence RI last night. 3 bands, first at 10, show done by 11:30. Two bands set up at once so change over was 5 minutes. Most shows dont go that fast.

Question though: will an earlier show *actually* get more people out, or are they "just browsing" and like the idea? It doesnt mean a thing if there's no actual upswing in audience size.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Mooh said:


> The local Legion starts their meat draws at 4 pm (used to be 5). The band plays a set, the meat draw and 50/50 takes about 45 minutes to an hour, then the band plays until 8 or 9 (sometimes later if they've kept the crowd). It's early, that's for sure, but everyone continues to a second party or goes home.
> 
> A local small house concert venue starts at 7:30 and runs to 10 or 11, depending on a variety of factors but it's never late.
> 
> ...


We found, through experience, the set list and volume of our band wasn't appreciated by many of the day crowd/meat draw folks at the Legion in Vancouver. We would set up while they were doing the meat draw (around 5:30), make a bit of testing noise, but no full-on sound-check or playing for about an hour after it was done - so 8ish. 

The septuagenarians and octogenarians would give us a 'what the hell' look, get up and leave (sometimes going to quieter, pool table side of the bar) and their seats on our side of the bar would immediately be filled by the 30 and 40 year olds who came in to hear the band. And we were doing our gentlest, quietest stuff in the first set. There's nothing we could play that would have kept the older folks in, so we played to the younger crowd. This was always on a weekend and we played till the stroke of midnight. The crowd just got bigger through the night, when we finished with AC/DC, Sabbath and Zep stuff.

I saw Dave Matthews about a year ago, on a Tuesday night in the hockey arena downtown. I had to work till 6, so the better half and I stopped for a burger on the way down and then took transit. We got in the venue around 7:20 and be damned if the first acoustic set wasn't already underway. I was sad because I wanted to hear the whole night. If I would have known they started right at 7, I would have left work a little early, but I'm just so used to rock bands making us wait for them for at least 20 or 30 minutes. The good thing was the show was done by 10 and we were home before 11 - even with Skytrain maintenance screwing up our commute home.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Budda said:


> We played an art space in providence RI last night. 3 bands, first at 10, show done by 11:30. Two bands set up at once so change over was 5 minutes. Most shows dont go that fast.
> 
> Question though: will an earlier show *actually* get more people out, or are they "just browsing" and like the idea? It doesnt mean a thing if there's no actual upswing in audience size.


I realize that it's a sample size of just one, but although I do attend a lot of live music shows, I don't go to anything that starts after 8:30 anymore. Which includes a lot of great local bands, unfortunately.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

If there were more venue & music choices in the 'burbs it's possible I'd see more shows. Catch 22.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

LanceT said:


> If there were more venue & music choices in the 'burbs it's possible I'd see more shows. Catch 22.


Possible or likely? That's the thing Im asking - who is actually gonna put their money where their mouth is if shows start at 7pm? I bet if we polled the users here, most people's desire to stay home and watch netflix/family time versus seeing a band would weigh in homes' favour.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Budda said:


> Possible or likely? That's the thing Im asking - who is actually gonna put their money where their mouth is if shows start at 7pm? I bet if we polled the users here, most people's desire to stay home and watch netflix/family time versus seeing a band would weigh in homes' favour.


Good point you are making about actual crowd size, bud. 

All my comments are based on my own "don't-need-the-job-so-eff-you" personal preference. Selfish. Doesn't really work in a genuinely competitive world where success and profits really matter. Lot more complicated. Just sayin' in OUR group there was absolutely no reason to wait. In the small town environment you are usually the "only act in town" for that day.

Still when I am in the city, I like an early --or at least punctual -- start. Fashionably late is simply functionally rude.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

No disagreement here that things shouldnt run late.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

Budda said:


> Possible or likely? That's the thing Im asking - who is actually gonna put their money where their mouth is if shows start at 7pm? I bet if we polled the users here, most people's desire to stay home and watch netflix/family time versus seeing a band would weigh in homes' favour.


What has happened to me many times is I'll get an alert from the bandsintown app that I band I want to see is coming to town so I get all excited. Then I open it up and see that they are playing say Lee's Palace on a Monday night. Done. Game over. The headlining act is not going on til midnight. I have to work the next day and how the hell am I going to get home to the burbs when the GO Train's stop running at 12:30.

I would go see more shows if they ended by say 10pm.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I think most weekday shows do try to be done at 11 though.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

At The Horseshoe, etc?

In my experience the headlining act goes on at 11.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

The issue with the late show times is only part of my dilemma. There's little choice in the area I live so in order to see a reasonable show, I'm travelling into Vancouver generally. Because of the logistics, we may only see one or two shows a year and by this I mean name acts.

Would it help if show times were earlier in this case? Not really because everything else stays the same.

If there were shows available locally to me of decent quality during the week at a reasonable time, then maybe. I'd like to say yes but need something to say yes to, hence the catch 22.
Definitely anything local to me would be in competition with sports events & family time and other leisure activities but to at least have a choice would be welcome.
(I'm probably not a very good example of a live music fan for the purposes of this discussion...)


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I refuse to go to any stadium show, unless either John Bonham or Chris Squire come back from the dead. I may go to one arena show every year or two at most - but it's got to be someone I really want to see. The last two arena shows I saw were Dave Matthews and Rogers Waters. Matthews was good, Rogers was f'ing brilliant. I just hate the cattle-crowd mentality of big shows, not to mention the crappy sound 98% of the time.



LanceT said:


> If there were more venue & music choices in the 'burbs it's possible I'd see more shows. Catch 22.


I'm going to see 54-40 this weekend in your 'burg (the ACT). Recently saw The Harpoonist and The Axemurderer there as well. 

Depends on what you're looking for - even the casino in Coquitlam has some pretty good shows in their theatre. I've seen so many concerts that these are all far more interesting than anything that's coming to the arena downtown any time soon. But to each, their own.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

I saw that 54-40 was playing at The Act but alas I won't be attending. I was just there the other night for an open mic though.

I've been to the Hard Rock a few times and they do have some good shows. Suburbia in all it's glory too.


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## TheYanChamp (Mar 6, 2009)

I think transit is a big problem. When trains/buses shut down before one, its kinda bummer to have to leave early even if I don't mind being up that late. I could drive, but more than a beer or two and you're rolling the dice.

Soundchecks are a big problem. A few venues around here say doors at 8 but don't soundcheck until 9 even if the bands are sitting around twiddling their thumbs.

Is it a strategy to sell more beer as people and bands sit and wait?


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

that is a good point!

GO trains in TO stop at 12:30

if they ran until after 2am people would be able to get home after a late show

I guess they don't want to deal with the 2am drunk crowd


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Late to the party, but I have to ask WTF is a "meat draw"?


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## bzrkrage (Mar 20, 2011)

Roryfan said:


> Late to the party, but I have to ask WTF is a "meat draw"?


Usually, on a Friday night at local hotel/club/legion a local sporting team/charity would purchase a "meat tray" (tray of sausages,bacon,steak or cuts if raw meat) to raffle off to raise funds for said team.
They buy is for $50, sell tickets for $2, draw a winner , pocket their difference for said team/charity.


"Best mediocre guitarist in Calgary!"


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

I caught the Rheostatics a couple of weeks ago at the Horsehoe. They are one of my favourite bands of all time, it was a Saturday night, and I was on a rare trip without my family in tow. However, the Rheos didn't come on until 11:30! It was an amazing show and perhaps the best one I have ever seen them play. Nonetheless, I looked around about mid way through the 2.5 hour set and noted that most of the crowd were over 40 and the crowd's energy level was waning at times . Despite watching such an amazing show, some of the people in my group couldn't help but check the time and start thinking about responsibilities the next morning. During an acoustic set when most of the band was taking a break, I actually contemplated leaving (glad I didn't because the band was incredible when the returned as an entire unit)!

Long story short, if one of my favourite all time bands had me and my friends starting to fret a bit about the time, what chance does an unknown or "kind of known" band have at getting us out to a show that starts late. If your audience primarily consists of 20 year olds then start whenever you want, but otherwise start at a reasonable time. I know the bar wants the band to play to last call so that they can keep selling booze, but with an older crowd I am betting they would sell more if they started earlier. This crowd drank less and less as the night wore on (fatigue, concerns about tomorrow) but had everyone showed up at the bar at 7:00 or so to catch a 9:00 start, I am betting consumption would have increased per person.

TG


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## bigboki (Apr 16, 2015)

bzrkrage said:


> Usually, on a Friday night at local hotel/club/legion a local sporting team/charity would purchase a "meat tray" (tray of sausages,bacon,steak or cuts if raw meat) to raffle off to raise funds for said team.
> They buy is for $50, sell tickets for $2, draw a winner , pocket their difference for said team/charity.
> 
> 
> "Best mediocre guitarist in Calgary!"


Thanks for explaining, I also wondered what meat draw might be

yours truly
Bojan


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## Guest (Jun 9, 2017)

Roryfan said:


> .. I have to ask WTF is a "meat draw"?





bigboki said:


> .. I also wondered what meat draw might be


Ask the ladies that frequent a male strip club?


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## SaucyJack (Mar 8, 2017)

Bars open here until 3 am so that's when the band stops. We played from 10:30 til 2am couple of weeks ago and it was great. Had time for a beer after the rock and roll show and then home by 3.


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