# Getting over the brand on the headstock



## RickKotzen (Jan 12, 2018)

It sounds silly, but I found myself willing to sell my PRS SE Tremonti (my only guitar not made in the USA or Japan) even though it plays and sounds great, just because it was made in Korea. 
So, I thought... wait a minute... a good guitar is a good guitar no matter where it was built. Why the hell am I so attached to this MIA/MIJ thing?!

Anyone has been there?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Not any time in the last number of years.


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

Nope. My Gibson took the backburner to my MIC Epiphone, and my MIM Esquire is in a tight race for #1 with my MIC Squire Telecaster. My two favorite amps are a MIC Epiphone and a vintage Fender. I play things that make me happy and inspire me.


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2019)

RickKotzen said:


> made in Korea


They're the new MIJ.


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## GetRhythm (May 18, 2012)

I find myself caring less and less every year, as far as electric guitars go anyway. I have a Korean made Gretsch Electromatic that blows my mind! Some of the higher end Epiphone stuff is simply amazing and if they aren't quite there, they are a pickup swap away from being amazing.

As far as acoustic guitars go, I still have to say that nothing beats a Martin D28 or D15M (I have A/B'd them several times now and can't decide which I like better). I can say that for the money, there are some excellent off shore options even in acoustics. I have an Epiphone EJ200 that sounds fantastic and would have been worth it even if it had cost more than I paid for it.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

The pickups aren't made by Huawei, by any chance?

The guitar-gear market has gotten steadily more childish over time. Even when gear appears to adopt a minimalist/utilitarian approach, we rush towards it like we're willing to eat the mashed potatoes on our plate but we're _NOT going to eat those other vegetables_, just as a "statement" of some sort.

Equally critical, as the number of choices have increased, we are more inclined to treat negligible differences between them as somehow important. My generation didn't give a rat's ass where a guitar was made. It was the neatest-looking one in the local department store, and we wanted it, because there were no other choices.

That said, as major companies have moved their production facilities around to wherever the labour costs were cheapest, and the environmental regulations slimmest, there were some noticeable differences in quality. Such differences were not consistent, though. Rather, they reflected differences in quality _control_, such that both crap and sheer gold could come from the same facility, as opposed to the predictable quality from domestically-made instruments. Guitars, after all, are fundamentally wood, and wood varies. And although one doesn't have to be a guitar god to make a guitar, you need to have some reasonable familiarity with what makes a guitar "good" in order to be able to set it up properly, match neck to body, know when you're spraying on too much paint, or when the fret ends are a little too sharp, etc. One can certainly teach all of that o the people producing the gear, but you still have to do it.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

mhammer said:


> Equally critical, as the number of choices have increased, we are more inclined to treat negligible differences between them as somehow important.


Well written!


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## rollingdam (May 11, 2006)

The MIA/MIJ thing is also part of the herd mentality...the thinking is anything else is crap because the guys on whatever forum say so.

The same applies to vintage guitars..the guitars made in the 50's became desirable because of the poor quality of the guitars made in the 70's. And now people see the 70's guitars as desirable. The guitars have not changed, but the thinking has.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

I don't care about the county of origin at all. And I think it's awesome new players have so many cool options now. I've owned more guitars than someone of my ability should ever have owned. But I only have one US made guitar right now, and that's fully by choice.

But... I will admit I have problems with a headstock I see as ugly. No offense to Epiphone owners, but the Epi headstock on an SG or LP (especially when unbound) is just ugly as hell to me. And it's not because it doesn't say Gibson, I just can't take the general design.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

Korean plants used to make good guitars, like Epiphone archtops.
My very affordable chinese Eastman AC122ce is just great !
Same for my Alvarez AP66 parlor and canadian Seagull Performer.
And I love my Taylors, Gibsons and Larrivées the same.
The big name on the headstock is not all...


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## cboutilier (Jan 12, 2016)

torndownunit said:


> I don't care about the county of origin at all. And I think it's awesome new players have so many cool options now. I've owned more guitars than someone of my ability should ever have owned. But I only have one US made guitar right now, and that's fully by choice.
> 
> But... I will admit I have problems with a headstock I see as ugly. No offense to Epiphone owners, but the Epi headstock on an SG or LP (especially when unbound) is just ugly as hell to me. And it's not because it doesn't say Gibson, I just can't take the general design.


I'd have to agree with you there. Without the full embellishments, like a Sheraton, the Epi head is a bit ugly. Have you seen the JDM Epiphones with the Gibson shape?


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## sillyak (Oct 22, 2016)

I have guitars from both North America and Asia. I like all of them.

If two guitars are equal quality I will pay more for the one made in Canada or USA. I choose to support our labour when I can and when I think the product is worth it.

Generally I find American made guitars are higher quality than Asian ones (not counting Japan). They are generally maybe only 10% better for 2-5x the cost though, law of diminishing returns and such. I won't pay the premium for less quality, but I don't find that to be the case most of the time.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

My Epiphone Les Paul is so good, I've no desire for a Gibson. I have guitars made all over the place but the two I keep consistently turning to are my two USA Fender Stratocaster Elites with the N4s in them. They just feel like home for some reason.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

cboutilier said:


> I'd have to agree with you there. Without the full embellishments, like a Sheraton, the Epi head is a bit ugly. Have you seen the JDM Epiphones with the Gibson shape?


I've seen that, and I've even seen a variation on the Elitest models that doesn't exactly match the Gibson one that still looks a lot better. The only LP style Epi North American headstock I don't mind is on their Customs with all the binding. But ya, 335 styles, vees, explorers by epi all look great. I just think that headstock, unbound, on LP and SG style guitars just looks like some sort of design afterthought that's just thrown on.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

sillyak said:


> I have guitars from both North America and Asia. I like all of them.
> 
> If two guitars are equal quality I will pay more for the one made in Canada or USA. I choose to support our labour when I can and when I think the product is worth it.
> 
> Generally I find American made guitars are higher quality than Asian ones (not counting Japan). They are generally maybe only 10% better for 2-5x the cost though, law of diminishing returns and such. I won't pay the premium for less quality, but I don't find that to be the case most of the time.


To me the sweet spot are companies that have some production in Asian countries, but they do their assembly and QC here. That is what Reverend does, and even though their prices have increased over the years, I still feel they are the best value out there. Through dozens of guitars, my Flatroc has always been my #1. Every component, every part of the design are so well thought out.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

I notice no one has mentioned European builders...


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## Guest (Feb 4, 2019)

torndownunit said:


> looks like some sort of design afterthought that's just thrown on.


They just clipped off the corners, but yeah, ugly.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

laristotle said:


> They just clipped off the corners, but yeah, ugly.


It's also the curves on the side though, and the difference in the cuts on the bottom. Those elements seem to access the cut off corners at the top even more.

The guitar player in my band has one of the 2002 set neck epi Jr's that the previous owner did this fix to, as well as thinning down the finish. It looks great. I'd take it over most new Gibson Jr's I've played.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

laristotle said:


> They just clipped off the corners, but yeah, ugly.


That clipped ears Epi headstock shape has been around since before Gibson bought them.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

jdto said:


> That clipped ears Epi headstock shape has been around since before Gibson bought them.


 And it looks good on the models it was originally on. I just personally think it looks bad on LP and SG style guitars.


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## 1SweetRide (Oct 25, 2016)

laristotle said:


> They just clipped off the corners, but yeah, ugly.


I prefer the Epiphone headstock.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

torndownunit said:


> And it looks good on the models it was originally on. I just personally think it looks bad on LP and SG style guitars.


Agree. I think those guitars just look "right" with the open book. It's probably programming from so many years of seeing them like that, but there it is.


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## jbealsmusic (Feb 12, 2014)

Budda said:


> I notice no one has mentioned European builders...


...and most of them charge premium prices. In some cases, more than "US-made" equivalents.

The brand on the headstock doesn't matter one iota to me... Am I getting good value for my money based on my perceived needs at the time? If the answer is yes, that's all that matters. If my perceived needs change, that's when I re-evaluate.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

jdto said:


> Agree. I think those guitars just look "right" with the open book. It's probably programming from so many years of seeing them like that, but there it is.


There's also plenty of headstocks on those style guitars from other companies I like though as well. It's just specifically the Epi one I don't like lol.

It's one thing Fender does right. You can get a decent quality Fender at almost every price point that looks like a Fender. I'll never understand Gibson not doing the same. I will never have the cash to buy a $1500 Jr for example. But, I'd buy a solid Epi one if if didn't have that headstock. They aren't losing a Gibson sale, I am not and never have been their customer base.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Brand names don't just appear on headstocks. Drive around. Go to your grocery store. Or liquor store. Or clothing/shoe store. Go to a movie. We all choose, every day, to buy something or watch something based on it's reputation (or how we perceive that reputation).

How do you know what a whisky or beer is gonna be like if not for the name on the label? Sure, there's lots of no-name foods, clothes, etc. In some cases, maybe you care enough to pay more, in some cases, not. With consumables, it's probably less of an issue (because it will eventually be gone - at least if it's any good). With articles you plan on keeping for years, decades, even longer, that reputation may be worth a lot more.

There's a reason movie (and TV) producers attach a name like Tom Hanks or Julia Roberts to a project - and pay them kazillions of dollars. That known brand will bring in more sales and profits, get more buzz and attention. Do the same movie with a bunch of nobodiies and it won't get much buzz and perhaps die before it's made back it's much lower cost of production. C'est la vie.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

I'm a guitar brand whore, apparently. Across my wall it says Fender, Fake Fender (Warmoth), Fender, Gibson, Gibson, Gretsch...

But I really like all of them.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

jdto said:


> I'm a guitar brand whore, apparently. Across my wall it says Fender, Fake Fender (Warmoth), Fender, Gibson, Gibson, Gretsch...
> 
> But I really like all of them.


Me too, I guess.

My Korean guitars have the most flaws (in design, in execution, in trying to find replacement parts that fit). My Japanese guitars are much better but still have a few issues compared to my NA and Euro guitars. 

If I work on something, I always find it easier to work on and find parts with the 'better' brands. Maybe people don't care about that. Same with electronics. Good quality hi-fi speakers and electronics are repairable, the cheap stuff is disposable. 

It is all ultimately about 'point of diminishing returns'. I don't expect a $5000 guitar to be 10X better than a $500 guitar. But if I play it for 30 years, that small amount of improvement just pays off over and over and over and over again. YMMV. Don't hate because of personal choices others make with their money. Their life isn't your life. Get over it.

Love what you play and play what you love.


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## marcos (Jan 13, 2009)

Guilty !!!! LOL.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

jbealsmusic said:


> ...and most of them charge premium prices. In some cases, more than "US-made" equivalents.


Is that a premium or the extra cost of importing overseas?


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

High/Deaf said:


> Me too, I guess.
> 
> My Korean guitars have the most flaws (in design, in execution, in trying to find replacement parts that fit). My Japanese guitars are much better but still have a few issues compared to my NA and Euro guitars.
> 
> ...


Things can change too. For me, a turning point was owning Reverends, and owning Squier Classic Vibes. I am a Tele fanatic. I've owned dozens. I even won the Tdpri grand prize in their raffle one year which was an insane custom shop Tele worth more than my car was at the time. I'd take the Squier Classic vibe Custom I owned over any of them. That instrument wasn't 'good for the price' it was simply a great guitar period. It was also one of the few Teles I had I kept stock. But, finding parts for it would not have been an issue. Pretty much all parts manufacturers have widened their scope.

I have similar experiences with P basses. I have a Squier Vintage Modified Amber P bass that has just been the perfect P for me. And, it's also completely stock.

There's been rare occasions where I've had the money to spend on whatever gear I wanted. And the higher end stuff wasn't sold because I had to. My views on things just completely changed based on a few buying experiences.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

I am the worst offender when it comes to brands. I will *play* anything, but when it comes to *spending* big money...

It's gotta be made in Canada. Gotta be made in Saskatchewan. Gotta be made by my next-door neighbour.

Why? Because the gear doesn't matter-- it's my effin TALENT that's important! If I have no talent, it's not the guitar's fault. If I am a genius, the amp has nothing to do with it.

*THEREFORE...*

*I buy Canadian and I buy local* to support the people around me. If they prosper, so do I. Simple.

You can send your money wherever you want I guess. Different focus for different folks. Just sayin. Make mine Canuck.


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## RickKotzen (Jan 12, 2018)

Owning this PRS SE Mark Tremonti really made me realize that Korean guitars (or whatever other non-USA/Japan) can be very good guitars. Silly, right?! I know. I only had to change its pickups and that's it. I think PRS really made a great job doing these SE. I haven't seen any other stock Korean guitar with that much quality. I understand that the price of an American PRS is higher because of the materials, but the Korean ones are not way behind IMO. This is something that really doesn't bother me at all, except that my PRS SE doesn't have the bird inlays. However, I'm not willing to pay +2000$ for it.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

At one point it may have mattered, but by the first time I got my first "good" guitar I bought an Ibanez--and got people telling me I didn't have a good guitar because it wasn't MIA.
I'd stack that guitar up against any other mass produced guitar from the same period.
Some will use fancier inlay or woodgrain, etc.
Some will have this or that better, but mine will be better in other ways.

And in the end--how does it feel to play it? How does it play? and How does it sound?


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

With many things, I buy as locally as possible. Not always easy, but I try. I’m not opposed to others, just prefer it this way. Obviously, the Gold Tone instruments I own (5) are Asian, and a few others, but lots of my acoustics and electrics are home grown. Godin, Beneteau, House, Cox, Seagull, S&P, all Cdn.

My Moon mandolin was made in Scotland.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

KapnKrunch said:


> I am the worst offender when it comes to brands. I will *play* anything, but when it comes to *spending* big money...
> 
> It's gotta be made in Canada. Gotta be made in Saskatchewan. Gotta be made by my next-door neighbour.
> 
> ...


The issue is what Canadian company has the ability to sell anything in the midrange price wise for an electric that won't be made overseas? For something higher end, there's options. But not everyone is able to spend that on a guitar or amp. I buy Canadian when I can as well. But I don't have many options for guitars or amps that I could afford.

You say 'when you spend big money'. A lot of us don't have that as an option.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

mhammer said:


> The ...


excellent post



KapnKrunch said:


> . If they prosper, so do I. Simple.


citation please. i see no evidence to support this claim

******************************************************************************************










steadly, right now


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

RickKotzen said:


> Owning this PRS SE Mark Tremonti really made me realize that Korean guitars (or whatever other non-USA/Japan) can be very good guitars. Silly, right?! I know. I only had to change its pickups and that's it. I think PRS really made a great job doing these SE. I haven't seen any other stock Korean guitar with that much quality. I understand that the price of an American PRS is higher because of the materials, but the Korean ones are not way behind IMO. This is something that really doesn't bother me at all, except that my PRS SE doesn't have the bird inlays. However, I'm not willing to pay +2000$ for it.


Then dont. Pretty much all newer SE's have birds now.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

What I find really weird is that many people seem to prefer older Korean Epiphone and Squiers over Chinese ones. Almost every Chinese one I’ve played is a better guitar than the Korean ones. It seems as well as country of origin age plays a part in perception of quality.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Important to distinguish between _country_ of origin, and _factory/production-facility _of origin. For years, we thought of "Made in Japan" as crap. But we learned that if it was made in the Matsmoku facility, you'll pay extra, because it was a better product. Samick has a good reputation as a maker of guitars, and their facility makes them for other companies as well as the Samick brand. I imagine it is not the only production facility in that country. I don't know that Ibanez has any production facilities in North America, but that hasn't stopped people from treating their instruments as top notch. Similarly, I imagine there are multiple production facilities in China and the various other southeast Asian countries, but we never get to know which one/s the budget instruments we buy come from.

I don't think the preference for this vs thatorigin of production is unreasonable. It just has to be based on appropriate attributions.


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## GetRhythm (May 18, 2012)

One thing a guitar store owner pointed out to me in conversation was if you look at say a high end Epiphone vs an entry level Gibson, the Epiphone is often a better guitar or equally as good for less money. The entry level Gibson is not being made by their best builders, it's that simple. Their best builders are working on the higher end stuff. Their newer, less experienced builders are building the lower end. However, in a Korean factory the higher end Epi stuff IS built by their BEST builders. Workers who've been doing it for a long time and are very skilled at what they do. Working in a guitar factory is a very good job over in Korea and they aren't going to just leave that job on a whim. They are going to keep pumping out their best work because it is supporting their family.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

cheezyridr said:


> citation please. i see no evidence to support this claim


I buy Canadian, I buy local. *I think it helps*. I see no evidence to support your demand for a citation.


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## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

torndownunit said:


> You say 'when you spend big money'. A lot of us don't have that as an option.


Big money for me is a few hundred bucks. Or more. Maybe less for someone else.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

KapnKrunch said:


> I buy Canadian, I buy local. *I think it helps*. I see no evidence to support your demand for a citation.


oooohhh, this is what you were talking about in the other post. hahahahaha boy , i had that all wrong. no, then the same answer still applies. i asked for citation because i've heard lots of people say it, but i've never heard anyone show, or explain how it actually works. when people say things that (to me) are not logical, i ask for an explanation. in the above case i asked for citation because i have seen other people here say that, but they never answered with facts, only feelings. i figured if i ask, i'll either learn something or i won't. that's even odds, anyhow


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

Kerry Brown said:


> What I find really weird is that many people seem to prefer older Korean Epiphone and Squiers over Chinese ones. Almost every Chinese one I’ve played is a better guitar than the Korean ones. It seems as well as country of origin age plays a part in perception of quality.


I've had mixed experiences. I remember trying some Korean Strats that were just terrible, especially compared to some of the newer Classic Vibes. But I've also owned both a Chinese and Korean Epiphone Casino, and the Korean was definitely better. As @mhammer pointed out, it really comes down to the factory, not so much the country of origin. In the case of my Casino, it was made at the Peerless factory which was fairly well renowned for its quality, and that was certainly reflected in the guitar.

I think every country produces some good and some bad, so you certainly can't judge on the country of origin label alone. But even the same factory can produce a vast array of quality. Just look at Gibson... they can make some really nice stuff in their Nashville plant, but they have also produced utter pieces of crap that I wouldn't pay $299 for (well, I did because it seemed like a good deal, but then I returned it because it was terrible!) So even MIA doesn't automatically make it that great.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

GetRhythm said:


> One thing a guitar store owner pointed out to me in conversation was if you look at say a high end Epiphone vs an entry level Gibson, the Epiphone is often a better guitar or equally as good for less money. The entry level Gibson is not being made by their best builders, it's that simple. Their best builders are working on the higher end stuff. Their newer, less experienced builders are building the lower end. However, in a Korean factory the higher end Epi stuff IS built by their BEST builders. Workers who've been doing it for a long time and are very skilled at what they do. Working in a guitar factory is a very good job over in Korea and they aren't going to just leave that job on a whim. They are going to keep pumping out their best work because it is supporting their family.


We are never privy to such things on this side of the ocean, but I wonder how many of the builders producing the higher-end economy instruments for "name" companies were lured away from competitors. It's not like poaching better employees is entirely unique to North America or Europe.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

cheezyridr said:


> excellent post
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the hammer and steadly remarks are bang on


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

I didn't think I was going to find anything new in the thread but the 'ugly headstock' comment got me. I don't mind buying budget instruments but they have to look good, so the ugly higher end stuff I'm going to pass on just as quick. I don't like the Epiphone stock but the Suhr isn't that much better, the Fenders out of the 70's were pretty gross as well. Many more out there but I'm more comfortable with the Squier label than I am with a terrible headstock.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

I own a Korean Tremonti SE (it’s my second one). After some upgraded pickups/electronics (thanks @FreewayJam - I know those push/pulls were a beyotch), Grovers & a fret dress, I decided to keep it over a USA McCarty. Fat neck, lightweight, tonally versatile and I’m into it for $750. What’s not to like? It’s the perfect jam night guitar. 

Based on how well the Tremonti turned out, I just picked up some Wolfetone P-90s to drop into an SE Soapbar (also MIK) that I snagged on the cheap. Doubt it will push my ‘65 SG Jr. out the door (to quote @fogdart ”it rings like a tuning fork”) but it will be a very good guitar for not many shekels & probably stayed tuned to Open G for the occasional Stones/slide foray.

But I also traded an absolutely killer Suhr “chambered 54” Strat b/c I couldn’t get past the look. Apparently I’m more worried about the shape of the headstock than the name on it.....


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

vadsy said:


> I didn't think I was going to find anything new in the thread but the 'ugly headstock' comment got me. I don't mind buying budget instruments but they have to look good, so the ugly higher end stuff I'm going to pass on just as quick. I don't like the Epiphone stock but the Suhr isn't that much better, the Fenders out of the 70's were pretty gross as well. Many more out there but I'm more comfortable with the Squier label than I am with a terrible headstock.


Agree with everything except I love the look of big headstock Strats! Unfortunately still trying to find one from the 70s that has a fat neck (not dipped in gobs of poly would be a bonus), decent weight & doesn’t play like shite. I’ve had a couple ‘06 Hwy 1s & a partscaster that were as good/better than any 70s Strat I’ve ever played.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Roryfan said:


> Agree with everything except I love the look of big headstock Strats! Unfortunately still trying to find one from the 70s that has a fat neck (not dipped in gobs of poly would be a bonus), decent weight & doesn’t play like shite. I’ve had a couple ‘06 Hwy 1s & a partscaster that were as good/better than any 70s Strat I’ve ever played.


Fender Custom Shop 70s. 70s looks, but built like it was still 1960. A friend lent me his, it’s a great guitar. Probably cheaper then a vintage one too.

As for headstock brands.. I don’t know why, but it matters, a bit. I have Squier, Fender, Gibson and Peavey. I like them all, but I don’t even look at other brands, not even great ones like Gretsch, or Rickenbacker. Hard to explain, probably childhood memories or something subliminal. I know those brands and what to look for. But ESP, Ibanez or even Yamaha or other “newer” brands, I just don’t know them, and that’s probably got more to do with my age then anything else.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

tomee2 said:


> Fender Custom Shop 70s. 70s looks, but built like it was still 1960. A friend lent me his, it’s a great guitar. Probably cheaper then a vintage one too.


I get where you’re coming from & have a big headstock partscaster built with top-notch parts that’s in the keeper category (it’s pushed 66 & 69 CS Strats out the door).

Part of the appeal of a 70s Strat would be to find a birth year guitar that checked all the boxes. Had a Tele Thinline that I rarely touched so it went.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

I am sorry to say but I want a premium brand name guitar! I just do. Don’t hate me because of it. 

I could of gotten my PRS by now if I wanted to settle for an SE but I would rather have an S2. I just do.


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## Rozz (Aug 1, 2018)

RickKotzen said:


> It sounds silly, but I found myself willing to sell my PRS SE Tremonti (my only guitar not made in the USA or Japan) even though it plays and sounds great, just because it was made in Korea.
> So, I thought... wait a minute... a good guitar is a good guitar no matter where it was built. Why the hell am I so attached to this MIA/MIJ thing?!
> 
> Anyone has been there?


I am even worse. I just opened the door to MIJ this past summer, picking up a couple of Ibanez. I was pretty much a MIA guy as soon as I was old enough to work full time.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Did we not have a very similar thread to this once before?


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

greco said:


> Did we not have a very similar thread to this once before?


I think there's a rule that every guitar forum has to have at least one per month.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

greco said:


> Did we not have a very similar thread to this once before?


all of our threads are similar,,,., its like you expect new content or something


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## aC2rs (Jul 9, 2007)

Of course what it says on the headstock matters, at the very least, it will give you an idea of what you should be expecting from the guitar, regardless of the brand name.

And it really matters if it says Gibson, Fender or some other well known brand and it is really a POS Chibson or Chender


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## DavidP (Mar 7, 2006)

torndownunit said:


> The issue is what Canadian company has the ability to sell anything in the midrange price wise for an electric that won't be made overseas? For something higher end, there's options. But not everyone is able to spend that on a guitar or amp. I buy Canadian when I can as well. But I don't have many options for guitars or amps that I could afford.


Well, have you taken a close look at Godin electrics??


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

For some, I feel sorry that they think they need a certain name on the headstock and that is often the newer, less experienced players that have little knowledge of the manufacturing process. Sometimes it is nationalism that drives people to want something with a certain brand name or made as close to home as possible. I think it is disservice to the young and uninitiated to suggest they must pay extra and sometimes a lot extra to buy a certain brand because everything else is inferior. Of course, many or likely most of us have been fooled by advertising to buy things over the years, perhaps including musical equipment. I don't own anything at the moment that is made in Canada or the USA although I have owned 3 Godins in the past. I would have no problem owning anything with a certain brand name on it as long as it had the specs I wanted and was the best bang for the buck as the competition. I work hard for my money and do not wish to pay some CEO and his executive team just so I can have their name on my gear.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> For some, I feel sorry that they think they need a certain name on the headstock and that is often the newer, less experienced players that have little knowledge of the manufacturing process. Sometimes it is nationalism that drives people to want something made as close to home as possible. I think it is disservice to young and the uninitiated to suggest they must pay extra and sometimes a lot extra to buy a certain brand because everything else is inferior. Of course, many or likely most of us have been fooled by advertising to buy things over the years, perhaps including musical equipment. I don't own anything at the moment that is made in Canada or the USA at the moment although I have owned 3 Godins in the past. I would have no problem owning anything with a certain brand name on it as long as it had the specs I wanted and was the best bang for the buck as the competition. I work hard for my money and do not wish to pay some CEO and his executive team just so I can have their name on my gear.


I love you and your infinite wisdon, @Steadfastly


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Steadfastly said:


> For some, I feel sorry that they think they need a certain name on the headstock and that is often the newer, less experienced players that have little knowledge of the manufacturing process. Sometimes it is nationalism that drives people to want something with a certain brand name or made as close to home as possible. I think it is disservice to the young and uninitiated to suggest they must pay extra and sometimes a lot extra to buy a certain brand because everything else is inferior. Of course, many or likely most of us have been fooled by advertising to buy things over the years, perhaps including musical equipment. I don't own anything at the moment that is made in Canada or the USA although I have owned 3 Godins in the past. I would have no problem owning anything with a certain brand name on it as long as it had the specs I wanted and was the best bang for the buck as the competition. I work hard for my money and do not wish to pay some CEO and his executive team just so I can have their name on my gear.


I bet your skiing equipment has all sorts of brand names all over it. Yea, you are paying some CEO somewhere for that.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> I bet your skiing equipment has all sorts of brand names all over it. Yea, you are paying some CEO somewhere for that.


does the watchtower have a CEO?


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

Steadfastly said:


> I work hard for my money and do not wish to pay some CEO and his executive team just so I can have their name on my gear.


I would venture a guess that you pay plenty of CEO's and their executive teams to have their names on your stuff. Or does Rondo Music sell everything from cars to cola these days?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

troyhead said:


> I would venture a guess that you pay plenty of CEO's and their executive teams to have their names on your stuff. Or does Rondo Music sell everything from cars to cola these days?


While there is not denying that all companies have a president or CEO that must get paid, some get paid what to us average people is exorbitant. You mention Rondo which is a good example. Their website includes renting out storage space. It seems that is helping the owner of Rondo to make a living. His competition need not do anything like that to make ends meet. I you wish to pay the CEO's in large companies their exorbitant wages and expense accounts, that is entirely up to you and any others who wish to do so. We are all free moral agents, able ot make our own decisions.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

RickKotzen said:


> Owning this PRS SE Mark Tremonti really made me realize that Korean guitars (or whatever other non-USA/Japan) can be very good guitars. Silly, right?! I know. I only had to change its pickups and that's it. I think PRS really made a great job doing these SE. I haven't seen any other stock Korean guitar with that much quality. I understand that the price of an American PRS is higher because of the materials, but the Korean ones are not way behind IMO. This is something that really doesn't bother me at all, except that my PRS SE doesn't have the bird inlays. However, I'm not willing to pay +2000$ for it.


Eh it's a night and day difference. I say this as I own both a Korean PRS SE (Not the tremonti) and a USA Made Tremonti. The American one is in a different league. However, the SE's are some of the best value for dollar on the market.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

TDeneka said:


> Eh it's a night and day difference. I say this as I own both a Korean* PRS SE* (Not the tremonti) and a USA Made *Tremonti. *The American one is in a different league. However, the SE's are some of the best value for dollar on the market.


But isn't this two different models?


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

vadsy said:


> all of our threads are similar,,,., its like you expect new content or something


The guy behind the bar has heard it all before. To the guy at the bar, it's a new story.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> But isn't this two different models?


Yes you could make that claim, and it would be entirely reasonable to make this argument. However, I have played the SE Tremonti on multiple occasions and the quality was comparable to the one I own.
The difference lies in the quality of parts, quality of woods, and the overall fit and finish.


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## RickKotzen (Jan 12, 2018)

TDeneka said:


> However, I have played the SE Tremonti on multiple occasions and the quality was comparable to the one I own.
> The difference lies in the quality of parts, quality of woods, and the overall fit and finish.


I’m glad to hear that!


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

Steadfastly said:


> I you wish to pay the CEO's in large companies their exorbitant wages and expense accounts, that is entirely up to you and any others who wish to do so. We are all free moral agents, able ot make our own decisions.


My point is that you *do *pay just like the rest of us do, unless you don’t own a car or you own a car that I’ve never seen an advertisement for, or you’ve never chosen a Coca Cola over the no-name brand.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

troyhead said:


> I would venture a guess that you pay plenty of CEO's and their executive teams to have their names on your stuff. Or does Rondo Music sell everything from cars to cola these days?


I'm still trying to understand how shopping for guitars at Rondo allows someone to think they aren't paying any "CEO's in large companies their exorbitant wages and expense accounts". You know, the CEO of the Hyundai you drove up the mountain, the CEO of Rossignol skis and of K2 boots, even the CEO of the large corp that owns the ski hill, etc. How about the CEO of Petro-Can? or maybe the CEO of the radio station you listened to on the way up. The list goes on and on.

I've said it before, the people who really believe they aren't buying into all that marketing are the favorite customers of those marketers. Like shooting fish in a barrel for them, really.


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## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

Generally speaking, how much of this argument goes to what you can afford, and what you wish you could afford?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Swervin55 said:


> Generally speaking, how much of this argument goes to what you can afford, and what you wish you could afford?


absolutely! if you can afford it and want it why shouldn't you have it? to be apologetic to the brand name headstock haters is silly


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

vadsy said:


> does the watchtower have a CEO?


Talk about marketing.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

sometimes...(not all the time) i think people ignore/are unaware that the value of money changes depending on how much you have. right now, i wouldn't balk at paying $700-1000 for a good, professional quality used guitar. however, it's not necessary to spend that much. sure, i could spend several thousand for a guitar if i wish. but my wage determines the value of my money _to me_. 
were i making twice as much, i would likely ascribe a different value to my money where maybe $3500 might not seem like such a big deal for a new guitar. if i am going to be honest, brand names with guitars do mean something to me. there are certain brands i just won't buy, because i know right off the bat they will not fall within the window of my expectations. maybe it's features, or specs, or quality. my brain likes to take shortcuts when it's convenient. i know that certain brands have the aspects i prefer, so i shop them first.


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## Delores Streisand (Nov 4, 2018)

Personally, I’m just glad Gibson changed their CEO. “Juszkiewicz” doesn’t fit so well on the headstocks. I also like that they’ve moved to listing the rest of the executive team on the pick-guard.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

troyhead said:


> My point is that you *do *pay just like the rest of us do, unless you don’t own a car or you own a car that I’ve never seen an advertisement for, or you’ve never chosen a Coca Cola over the no-name brand.


I understand that. It's an obvious point that we are stuck with. My point is we can often choose to support a company that has a large marketing, management and advertising fund that pays these people huge salaries or companies that produce very good products without all the hype and management with huge salaries. Sometimes it is unavoidable but that is often not the case in the music industry.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> I understand that. It's an obvious point that we are stuck with. My point is we can often choose to support a company that has a large marketing, management and advertising fund that pays these people huge salaries or companies that produce very good products without all the hype and management with huge salaries. Sometimes it is unavoidable but that is often not the case in the music industry.


Give some examples of these companies that don't market their products please.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> I understand that. It's an obvious point that we are stuck with. My point is we can often choose to support a company that has a large marketing, management and advertising fund that pays these people huge salaries or companies that produce very good products without all the hype and management with huge salaries. Sometimes it is unavoidable but that is often not the case in the music industry.


why don’t you give us some examples of how you apply this in your own life?

edit- a little late on my post, sulphur beat me to it


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

sulphur said:


> Give some examples of these companies that don't market their products please.


I don't believe I said they don't. 

What I said was some companies spend vast amounts of money doing so and the CEO and management are paid huge salaries. If I can avoid it, I won't support them.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

vadsy said:


> why don’t you give us some examples of how you apply this in your own life?
> 
> edit- a little late on my post, sulphur beat me to it


Simul-post, I bet neither will get an answer.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> I don't believe I said they don't.
> 
> What I said was some companies spend vast amounts of money doing so and the CEO and management are paid huge salaries. If I can avoid it, I won't support them.


ALL companies market their products.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Speaking of CEOs with lavish lifestyles, how about the televangelists that bilk the sick & stupid out of money they can’t afford to give? These slimeballs tthen use those funds for mansions (remember the guy with the air-conditioned dog house?) & private jets (the lord would never ask his servants to fly coach or stand in a TSA line). Yet somehow they don’t pay a dime in taxes because they’ve managed to wrangle legal status as a “charity”......

Also, IMO spending millions to market your product is a lesser evil vs. paying out settlements to victims of sexual abuse.


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## GuitarT (Nov 23, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> I understand that. It's an obvious point that we are stuck with. My point is we can often choose to support a company that has a large marketing, management and advertising fund that pays these people huge salaries or companies that produce very good products without all the hype and management with huge salaries. Sometimes it is unavoidable but that is often not the case in the music industry.


 And you don't think smaller established guitar companies don't have owners and management that draw big paychecks?


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## sillyak (Oct 22, 2016)

GuitarT said:


> And you don't think smaller established guitar companies don't have owners and management that draw big paychecks?



Generally no. You have to be a pretty darn large company to give out fat bonuses and not go under. Outside of Fender, Gibson, PRS, Taylor and Martin there is a living to be made, some do quite well I'm sure, but nothing crazy and probably less than you think.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

When I hear that Rondo is also in the storage business, I have yet another reason to never take a chance on one of their guitars. That kind of diversification into very disparate sectors tends to distract a company from properly focusing on their core business. 

If you don’t believe me, please read “Good To Great”. It’s a study of the performance of Fortune 500 companies over a period of several decades (50 yrs. IIRC). There are surprisingly few (only 2 IIRC) that didn’t stumble at some point. The majority got into industries they knew nothing about & made an absolute mess of things, sometimes to the brink of bankruptcy (Kimberly Clark IIRC).*

Henry J. got Gibson into a world of hurt b/c he lost focus on guitar building & tried to turn it a “lifestyle brand”. Guitars were being used to prop up other divisions. Happily it looks like the new leadership has gotten back to hedgehogging.

*It’s been ~15 yrs. since I’ve read the book, but if somebody has a copy handy & wants to confirm/correct the figures I mentioned above, please feel free to do so.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

sillyak said:


> Generally no. You have to be a pretty darn large company to give out fat bonuses and not go under. Outside of Fender, Gibson, PRS, Taylor and Martin there is a living to be made, some do quite well I'm sure, but nothing crazy and probably less than you think.


what about a company like Suhr? Collings?


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Roryfan said:


> Speaking of CEOs with lavish lifestyles, how about the televangelists that bilk the sick & stupid out of money they can’t afford to give? These slimeballs tthen use those funds for mansions (remember the guy with the air-conditioned dog house?) & private jets (the lord would never ask his servants to fly coach or stand in a TSA line). Yet somehow they don’t pay a dime in taxes because they’ve managed to wrangle legal status as a “charity”......
> 
> Also, IMO spending millions to market your product is a lesser evil vs. paying out settlements to victims of sexual abuse.


bad as that incident is, i would hardly equate the j/w sect with word-of-faith preachers like olsteen, hagey, myers, copeland, baker, falwell, etc. 
also, the charity thing is exploited far more than even they, by _actual _charities. and not just some of them, but many of the biggest names. finding corporations and non profits who practice unethical behaviors, or are just unapologetically corrupt, is not even low hanging fruit. it's already on the ground. it's so ubiquitous, it's thought of as "just the way it is". 
you can pick and choose what brands to support (or not) without feeling hypocritical.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

Well if you're doing something you love and are successful, bonus the hell out of the thing.

And why would anyone want a CEO who didn't think they were worth what it took? Shouldn't these individuals be well paid?


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

LanceT said:


> Well if you're doing something you love and are successful, bonus the hell out of the thing.
> 
> And why would anyone want a CEO who didn't think they were worth what it took? Shouldn't these individuals be well paid?


imagine how successful Rondo could be with a proper CEO


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## sillyak (Oct 22, 2016)

vadsy said:


> what about a company like Suhr? Collings?



What do you think the owner of those companies makes a year? I bet it isn't much over 150-200k/year. Lots of stress and a good cheque, but nowhere near amazing.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

vadsy said:


> imagine how successful Rondo could be with a proper CEO


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

cheezyridr said:


>


that’s him, that’s the ceo


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

vadsy said:


> imagine how successful Rondo could be with a proper CEO


I know this guy named Henry...


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

High/Deaf said:


> I'm still trying to understand how shopping for guitars at Rondo allows someone to think they aren't paying any "CEO's in large companies their exorbitant wages and expense accounts". You know, the CEO of the Hyundai you drove up the mountain, the CEO of Rossignol skis and of K2 boots, even the CEO of the large corp that owns the ski hill, etc. How about the CEO of Petro-Can? or maybe the CEO of the radio station you listened to on the way up. The list goes on and on.
> 
> I've said it before, the people who really believe they aren't buying into all that marketing are the favorite customers of those marketers. Like shooting fish in a barrel for them, really.


I had my first eye opener involving corporations when I started working in marketing for Sara Lee Canada while in college. The umbrella of companies they owned at the time was insane. There were about 40 huge companies ranging from General Mills to Gillette. Then there was the massive list of smaller companies. I find most people out there really have no clue who they are actually supporting.

The crazy part is the entire division I worked for (food service division) doesn't even exist today as far as I know. Which is the other issue. Trying to keep track of what actually goes in with these corporations is almost impossible unless it's something you are an expert in.

I support local companies when I can. That's the one sure way I can support the smaller guys. But I just don't have the money to be selective about every product I buy. I am not going to feel bad about that. That's life.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> While there is not denying that all companies have a president or CEO that must get paid, some get paid what to us average people is exorbitant. You mention Rondo which is a good example. Their website includes renting out storage space. It seems that is helping the owner of Rondo to make a living. His competition need not do anything like that to make ends meet. I you wish to pay the CEO's in large companies their exorbitant wages and expense accounts, that is entirely up to you and any others who wish to do so. We are all free moral agents, able ot make our own decisions.


You might want to have a quick peek at the facts. So their guitar website includes renting out storage space eh? Interesting indeed.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kurt-zentmaier-425461b


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

I've said it before: Man, Gibson threads . . . It always boils down to such crude black and white arguments (the inevitable sophomoric 'haters' label and the equally ridiculous 'Gibson are crap' comments).

A big portion of a 'big brand's' price goes to covering advertising, marketing, and upper management. There is zero doubt about this. If somebody seeks out an alternative to that pricing structure/cost why scorch them or suggest they are a hypocrite because their car, skis, etc are made by a brand name? In most of these other cases, there is no real alternative to picking from one of the mega brands so it hardly makes somebody a hypocrite if they buy 'big brand' in one circumstance yet exercise an alternative 'non-big brand' option when this option actually exists. None of us can completely escape a system that is built outside of our direct control, yet it is hardly foolish to navigate it to the best of our abilities.

You are going to buy from a company no matter what company you pick. If you are willing to pay more for a brand name so be it, but at least practice a little reflexivity and ponder how your 'willingness' is shaped by advertising and marketing. Ads and marketing work; if it didn't, companies would not spend money on it. Study after study has also shown that people who are the most concerned with brand names have the highest levels of self doubt and insecurity about their identity. OTOH, also keep in mind that there are _different types _of value. Sign value, the value of something as a symbol and communicator, is real and cannot be reduced to economic value (it's not the same thing). All of our consumptive choices communicate something about us and therefore choosing an 'off-brand' sends a message just as much as when we choose a brand name. In fact, the choice to buy a off-brand may be actively shaped by the big name advertising and marketing. Rejecting particular sign values, therefore, does not mean you somehow escape the influence of sign value all together.

With that said, instead of continuing straw-man attacks and crude binary oppositions why not start a thread like this:

For those of you who care about the logo on the headstock: If brand name gear suddenly became cheaper or less popular, would you still desire it as much? Why or why not? Think of at least 3 examples from your life that support your answer. Think of at least 3 counter-examples from your life. Can you now understand why 'off-branders' may look at your consumption why a bit of suspicion?

For those who are supposedly 'over' the headstock, why do you care if others only want a brand name? Given this concern, are you really 'over' the headstock and have you have actually 'risen above' the concern for sign value? Can you now see why your continued dismissal of brand names may come off as a smug sense of superiority to others (_you _know something they don't)?

Happy Tuesday Everyone,
TG


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Wow. Kurt Zentmaier has an MBA from Melon and is president of four companies. Yea, I bet he only makes $85k a year. LOL 

In reality, Steadly is supporting one of those guys that he seems to have a massive hatred for - WITHOUT EVEN KNOWING IT. Much like the marketing he is being influenced by every day, and doesn't seem to have any knowledge or awareness of. I'd love to see his ski equipment - that is all about branding.




torndownunit said:


> I had my first eye opener involving corporations when I started working in marketing for Sara Lee Canada while in college. The umbrella of companies they owned at the time was insane. There were about 40 huge companies ranging from General Mills to Gillette. Then there was the massive list of smaller companies. I find most people out there really have no clue who they are actually supporting.
> 
> The crazy part is the entire division I worked for (food service division) doesn't even exist today as far as I know. Which is the other issue. Trying to keep track of what actually goes in with these corporations is almost impossible unless it's something you are an expert in.
> 
> I support local companies when I can. That's the one sure way I can support the smaller guys. But I just don't have the money to be selective about every product I buy. I am not going to feel bad about that. That's life.


+100

And that's exactly why we shouldn't stress about how much money others make, or what they spend it on. We shouldn't covet or be jealous of what others have. Doing so leads to shitshows like this one.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Dorian2 said:


> You might want to have a quick peek at the facts. So their guitar website includes renting out storage space eh? Interesting indeed.
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/kurt-zentmaier-425461b


What do you think his income is compared to the CEO's at Fender, Gibson, Ibanez and PRS? NOtice when you email them, it's Kurt himself who answers the email unlike the CEO's of large companies.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> What do you think his income is compared to the CEO's at Fender, Gibson, Ibanez and PRS? NOtice when you email them, it's Kurt himself who answers the email unlike the CEO's of large companies.


Not trying to be dicky at all, but you do know the name in the email account means nothing. There's likely a tech support team all replying from the same address, and in most cases using canned responses until they need to escalate a ticket. Rondos support is very good, I have dealt with them. But Kurt is simply not replying to every email on his own.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. A company can't function if the people running it are answering emails all day. Even the small businesses here can attest to that.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Steadfastly said:


> What do you think his income is compared to the CEO's at Fender, Gibson, Ibanez and PRS? NOtice when you email them, it's Kurt himself who answers the email unlike the CEO's of large companies.


Seriously?


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Oops I did it again, snagged a Japanese non-export Epiphone Les Paul yesterday from @vokey design (model is possibly LPS-80). It has a proper Gibson headstock shape, ABR-1 & @Ayr Guitars installed some Burstbuckers for Josh. Haven’t had a chance to plug it in yet, anxious to hear how it compares to the Bloomfield. 

Being fiscally responsible, I really hope it’s good. Bloomy was a 40th b-day present to me from me, so it ain’t going anywhere, but this JDM Epi might push a different expensiver guitar out the door.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

torndownunit said:


> Not trying to be dicky at all, but you do know the name in the email account means nothing. There's likely a tech support team all replying from the same address, and in most cases using canned responses until they need to escalate a ticket. Rondos support is very good, I have dealt with them. But Kurt is simply not replying to every email on his own.
> 
> And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. A company can't function if the people running it are answering emails all day. Even the small businesses here can attest to that.


You may be right but I have not see that before. Perhaps you have. Any emails sent to Kurt has his name on them.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Roryfan said:


> Oops I did it again, snagged a Japanese non-export Epiphone Les Paul yesterday from @vokey design (model is possibly LPS-80). It has a proper Gibson headstock shape, ABR-1 & @Ayr Guitars installed some Burstbuckers for Josh. Haven’t had a chance to plug it in yet, anxious to hear how it compares to the Bloomfield.
> 
> Being fiscally responsible, I really hope it’s good. Bloomy was a 40th b-day present to me from me, so it ain’t going anywhere, but this JDM Epi might push a different expensiver guitar out the door.


No photos? Shame!


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

laristotle said:


> They just clipped off the corners, but yeah, ugly.


There’s more differences than that. The Epi looks like a rug beater. And fugly to my eyes too. I like the elitist tombstone a bit more but not much.


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## rhh7 (Mar 14, 2008)

Nearly every guitar I own is either a "Squier", or a partscaster with a Warmoth neck and no decal. I love Strat's and Tele's, and have always played Squier's because I could afford them.

Now that I can spend more, I still get a Squier. I add Allparts wiring kit, alnico pickups and a professional setup. Ready to rock.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

rhh7 said:


> Nearly every guitar I own is either a "Squier", or a partscaster with a Warmoth neck and no decal. I love Strat's and Tele's, and have always played Squier's because I could afford them.
> 
> Now that I can spend more, I still get a Squier. I add Allparts wiring kit, alnico pickups and a professional setup. Ready to rock.


I am such a Squier endorser. The other thing I love is that they've always experimented with oddball models. I've owned every level of Fender. Even now, I have both a Fender La Cabronita and a Squier Cabronita. The Squier gets all the play, and the Fender is it's backup. I have 2 oddball Squier basses I love (a Tele bass, and a maple bodied P Bass) . They just make cool stuff.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

rhh7 said:


> Nearly every guitar I own is either a "Squier", or a partscaster with a Warmoth neck and no decal. I love Strat's and Tele's, and have always played Squier's because I could afford them.
> 
> Now that I can spend more, I still get a Squier. I add Allparts wiring kit, alnico pickups and a professional setup. Ready to rock.


The Squier Family: Cabronita, Vintage Modified Amber P-bass (maple body), Tele Bass (I don't really know what this model is called), Mahogany Double Fat Strat.

Interestingly, all of these are stock except the Fat Strat, which just started out as a body and neck I bought. But all of these were under $300. It's pretty damn tough to complain about that.


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2019)

torndownunit said:


> Tele Bass (I don't really know what this model is called)


Vintage Modified. Only made for a coupla' years, IIRC.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

laristotle said:


> Vintage Modified. Only made for a coupla' years, IIRC.


I knew it was a VM series, they all are except the fat Strat. I just can't recall the specific model name. 'heavy ass Tele bass' is my own model name. Sounds killer though. And it's medium scale, which is different.


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## Rozz (Aug 1, 2018)

Steadfastly said:


> For some, I feel sorry that they think they need a certain name on the headstock and that is often the newer, less experienced players that have little knowledge of the manufacturing process.


In my opinion it is a lot more likely to be older players who are from the day when there were only a handful of decent manufacturers, who developed brand loyalty from purchasing quality instruments from a specific company. Check out young players on YouTube; they aren't playing Gibson or Fenders 90% of the time in my viewings.

Re:


> I work hard for my money and do not wish to pay some CEO and his executive team just so I can have their name on my gear.


How much money the CEO of a company makes doesn't even enter my thought process when I am evaluating guitars. If it did I would have missed out on some winners. Each to his own, but imo refusing to buy a particular brand because you don't like the company's salary structure makes about as much sense as insisting on buying a guitar because it is a Gibson. I feel all guitars need to be evaluated on their own merits, who makes them or how much they get paid isn't important to me.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Rozz said:


> In my opinion it is a lot more likely to be older players who are from the day when there were only a handful of decent manufacturers, who developed brand loyalty from purchasing quality instruments from a specific company. Check out young players on YouTube; they aren't playing Gibson or Fenders 90% of the time in my viewings.
> 
> Re:
> 
> How much money the CEO of a company makes doesn't even enter my thought process when I am evaluating guitars. If it did I would have missed out on some winners. Each to his own, but imo refusing to buy a particular brand because you don't like the company's salary structure makes about as much sense as insisting on buying a guitar because it is a Gibson. I feel all guitars need to be evaluated on their own merits, who makes them or how much they get paid isn't important to me.


I'd also guess the prices haven't matched inflation over the years. Was the cost of a Les Paul the equivalent of well over $3000 CDN in the past? I don't actually know, but I'd assume not. People simply can't afford a lot of the gear out there. Which is why it's so great that there's so many other options.


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## Scottone (Feb 10, 2006)

torndownunit said:


> I'd also guess the prices haven't matched inflation over the years. Was the cost of a Les Paul the equivalent of well over $3000 CDN in the past? I don't actually know, but I'd assume not. People simply can't afford a lot of the gear out there. Which is why it's so great that there's so many other options.


I just googled it and apparently a Les Paul was about $300.00 in 1959......with inflation, that's about $2590 in current dollars. So the price has gone up more than the inflation rate for sure.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Scottone said:


> I just googled it and apparently a Les Paul was about $300.00 in 1959......with inflation, that's about $2590 in current dollars. So the price has gone up more than the inflation rate for sure.


That's much closer than I thought it would be. I guess people's incomes probsbly haven't adjusted though really.


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## Rozz (Aug 1, 2018)

torndownunit said:


> I'd also guess the prices haven't matched inflation over the years. Was the cost of a Les Paul the equivalent of well over $3000 CDN in the past? I don't actually know, but I'd assume not. People simply can't afford a lot of the gear out there. Which is why it's so great that there's so many other options.


I am not sure either but I would guess guitars are a lot closer to inflation than wages(in opposite directions of course). I agree, the more options the better. I am also a huge advocate of buying used guitars. Why pay $3000.00 for a new LP, when you can buy a near-new one for $1700.00? For me it is about taking the time to find something I like.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

I bought my LP Deluxe used, with road wear, from L&M in 1986 for $700 with case. That may give an indication of inflation and pricing differences back then to now.


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## Rozz (Aug 1, 2018)

Dorian2 said:


> I bought my LP Deluxe used, with road wear, from L&M in 1986 for $700 with case. That may give an indication of inflation and pricing differences back then to now.


I checked it out: 

An initial amount of $10,000.00 in 01/1959 is equal to $86,078.43 in real dollars in 01/2018, an increase of 760.78% in the Consumer Price Index for Canada, or a compound annual inflation rate of 3.72%.

Inflation Calculator

So if a guy making $10,000.00 in 1959 bought a $375.00 LP Flame top(I looked it up) it cost him 3.75% of his annual salary. If a guy making the equivalent amount today($86k) bought a $3000.00 LP it would cost him about 3.4% of his annual salary. So it was more expensive back then. It would cost the 2018 guy $3200. I didn't take the time to check the exchange rate, so I just valued the $375 price at par.

I think I figured that out right. lol


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## Rozz (Aug 1, 2018)

torndownunit said:


> The Squier Family: Cabronita, Vintage Modified Amber P-bass (maple body), Tele Bass (I don't really know what this model is called), Mahogany Double Fat Strat.
> 
> Interestingly, all of these are stock except the Fat Strat, which just started out as a body and neck I bought. But all of these were under $300. It's pretty damn tough to complain about that.


Those Cabronitas are nice guitars, my brother owns one.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

I dont


Rozz said:


> Those Cabronitas are nice guitars, my brother owns one.


I have a Fender one as well. I looked for them for years for a deal after they stopped selling, then suddenly found 2 in a month just awhile back. I got them both for less than what some people were asking for one. It involved a couple of long drives though lol. I actually prefer the Squier one.


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

booga booga booga


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## keefsdad (Feb 7, 2006)

I gigged with a no-name Strat copy for quite a while. I wrote "ACME" in magic marker on the headstock.


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## double_a (Jun 4, 2017)

RickKotzen said:


> It sounds silly, but I found myself willing to sell my PRS SE Tremonti (my only guitar not made in the USA or Japan) even though it plays and sounds great, just because it was made in Korea.
> So, I thought... wait a minute... a good guitar is a good guitar no matter where it was built. Why the hell am I so attached to this MIA/MIJ thing?!
> 
> Anyone has been there?


You gotta get over that. Some of favourite builds have Warmoth necks. So they don’t say Fender or whatever. They are still great guitars.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2019)

double_a said:


> Some of favourite builds have Warmoth necks. So they don’t say Fender or whatever.


I've had a few Strats over the years, but the one I've kept is an Allparts/Warmoth.
It does/can say Fender on it.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

double_a said:


> You gotta get over that. Some of favourite builds have Warmoth necks. So they don’t say Fender or whatever. They are still great guitars.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


You dont actually have to get over it. But doing so can help.

If no one buys new guitars, we dont get used ones (or at good prices)


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

I had to look at my Lowden designed 12 string today to remind me what was on the headstock.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Steadfastly said:


> I had to look at my Lowden designed 12 string today to remind me what was on the headstock.


sounds like you don’t play it often enough if you’re forgetting what guitar it is


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

traynor_garnet said:


> A big portion of a 'big brand's' price goes to covering advertising, marketing, and upper management. There is zero doubt about this. If somebody seeks out an alternative to that pricing structure/cost why scorch them or suggest they are a hypocrite because their car, skis, etc are made by a brand name? In most of these other cases, there is no real alternative to picking from one of the mega brands...


I don't think anyone disagrees with this. However, one of the comments about pursuing alternatives to the "big brands" was rather smug. The point of bringing up other products like cars, skis, etc. was to say, "Don't be so smug, you do the same thing with other items every day." That's all.

If one decides they like the big brands on the headstock because of how it looks, that's cool. Or maybe it's vanity, that's totally legit too (if it makes you feel better/happier, then that's a good reason because it could make you a more confident player). Or for me, it's about resale value because it seems like I never keep these things forever. And if you don't care about the brand name or headstock shape, or you want to save money, or you want to support the little guys, that's all cool too. _*But*_ if you want or don't want a logo on a headstock because you think you know better than everyone else, then you actually have a lot to learn.

It seems that the more you know about something, you find there is more and more yet to learn. This goes for so many things, including music. Anyone who thinks they have "arrived" must surely be at the beginning of their journey.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Brand naming for myself is only based on experience of use. I'm a person who doesn't take well to any types of "labels" being placed on a person and typically avoid name brands. Particularly in clothing. But if the quality and workmanship is there, in lieu of my personal experience, I'll typically tend toward that name brand. It also works the other way. When I was 17 there used to be Sony stores in the Mall by where we live. My folks bought a stereo there and it quit within 2 weeks of normal use. I brought it back and was hassled to no end about returning it at the store. They refused to accept the return. I havn't purchased a Sony product since. Yes, I can hold a grudge. LOL

I also bought my first good guitar at the time, which happened to be Growler, my LP. It's served me well through High School, College, gigging, and teaching. Has nothing really to do with the headstock at all, except that many of my guitar heroes also played that brand. Much like Fender fans. Hey, they're just good guitars for the most part. As is my Squier , Seagull, A&L, and ESP Viper Bass. My Kustom Bass amp is killer for my use as well. It goes for about $50 bones used lol.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Dorian2 said:


> Brand naming for myself is only based on experience of use. I'm a person who doesn't take well to any types of "labels" being placed on a person and typically avoid name brands. Particularly in clothing. But if the quality and workmanship is there, in lieu of my personal experience, I'll typically tend toward that name brand. It also works the other way. When I was 17 there used to be Sony stores in the Mall by where we live. My folks bought a stereo there and it quit within 2 weeks of normal use. I brought it back and was hassled to no end about returning it at the store. They refused to accept the return. I havn't purchased a Sony product since. Yes, I can hold a grudge. LOL


That's such a major part of all of this. 

How do you know what kind of quality to expect if not for the name brand and the reputation of the company? 

I can buy a hand-made guitar from the guy down the block that no one has ever heard of. It may be brilliant, it may be crap. Was it his first guitar or his 31st? I do know I probably won't get anything for it when I sell it, so I don't want to go big into the purchase price, unless I can really see and experience the quality. But still, no track record. Maybe the whole things warps and the glues fail within a month. No one really knows. If he's been building guitars for a decade and has a track record of happy customers, that's quite a different scenario, no?

And then we get into what people value and what they don't. I worked in the broadcast business for a decade and won't suffer bad television quality. Some people couldn't give a shit less, as long as they can see the image. I, on the other hand, will spend extra for a TV with good dynamic range (resolution is a given these days). Same with sound or clothes or sports accessories or furniture. There's lots of things I'll invest my hard earned moolla into and lots of things I just won't. I suspect we all do this. And I strongly suspect what I put money into, someone else doesn't. And vice versa. 

It's a big, varied world. I'd hate it to be any other way.
We all spend money on stupid shit, as seen from someone else's perspective. 
I just wish some people could get over the constant judgement of others for doing what they do with their money.

Play what you love, and love what you play.


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## traynor_garnet (Feb 22, 2006)

troyhead said:


> I don't think anyone disagrees with this. However, one of the comments about pursuing alternatives to the "big brands" was rather smug. The point of bringing up other products like cars, skis, etc. was to say, "Don't be so smug, you do the same thing with other items every day." That's all.
> 
> _*But*_ if you want or don't want a logo on a headstock because you think you know better than everyone else, then you actually have a lot to learn.


Regarding the first point, I didn't mean to come off as smug. A bunch of people were ganging up on a member _because_ he chooses brand names for other products. It is important to ask if there are true non-brand alternatives in those product categories before claiming somebody is a hypocrite. You cannot exercise options that don't exist. (BTW, I don't know this member or claim to represent or even agree with him).

Your last comment is what I was getting at. Nobody is either a fool or god and it is really important to consider others' viewpoints. If everyone questioned themselves half as much as the questioned others, the world would be a much better place. 

TG


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> We all spend money on stupid shit, as seen from someone else's perspective.
> I just wish some people could get over the constant judgement of others for doing what they do with their money.


Very well written. Succinct.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> That's such a major part of all of this.
> 
> How do you know what kind of quality to expect if not for the name brand and the reputation of the company?
> 
> ...


passing judgement is what separates us from the animals,., except the weasel, the Lord also gave him that ability.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

traynor_garnet said:


> Regarding the first point, I didn't mean to come off as smug.


For the record, I wasn’t saying YOU were smug.  It was someone else who was saying things like “I feel sorry that they think they need a certain name on the headstock,” and then implying that they are less knowledgeable for thinking that.


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## Guncho (Jun 16, 2015)

What about getting over the shape of the headstock? 

I would totally get an Epi LP but I hate Epiphones headstocks!


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2019)

Guncho said:


> What about getting over the shape of the headstock?
> 
> I would totally get an Epi LP but I hate Epiphones headstocks!


Could always go to Japan.


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## jdto (Sep 30, 2015)

I just bought another brand name guitar yesterday. And one last week, too. I'm a zombie-slave to corporate marketing!


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

laristotle said:


> Could always go to Japan.


That honestly just sucks. I like Epiphone too but cannot get over the (North American?) headstock. Wish they'd offer those here.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

jdto said:


> I just bought another brand name guitar yesterday. And one last week, too. I'm a zombie-slave to corporate marketing!


Pretty soon you'll be selling Amway products to your family. Be careful there bud!


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Dorian2 said:


> Pretty soon you'll be selling Amway products to your family. Be careful there bud!


I don’t associate Amway, Melaluca & other pyramid schemes (sorry “multi-level marketing”) with with brand name products.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Roryfan said:


> I don’t associate Amway, Melaluca & other pyramid schemes (sorry “multi-level marketing”) with with brand name products.


Neither do I. It was just a smart ass remark is all.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Re the photo of the Epi Japan headstock

I'll never get that either. Gibson doesn't seem to get that headstock would not take Gibson sales away. People who can't afford a Gibson will likely not ever buy one. Possibly a used one. People who are brand loyal to Gibson won't buy an Epiphone. There's the middle ground where there's people like me tough. An Epi Jr for a decent price with that headstock? I would buy it. So I'd be a purchaser of a new Gibson product for the first time ever (I've bought a few used).


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Dorian2 said:


> Neither do I. It was just a smart ass remark is all.


Ahhh, you forgot to use the sarcastic font.


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

Dorian2 said:


> That honestly just sucks. I like Epiphone too but cannot get over the (North American?) headstock. Wish they'd offer those here.


I may be offering one very soon.


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## troyhead (May 23, 2014)

torndownunit said:


> I'll never get that either. Gibson doesn't seem to get that headstock would not take Gibson sales away.


I don’t get that one either. Doesn’t seem to be hurting Fender much that the Squier headstocks are the “genuine” shape.

My least favourite is the Japanese Epiphone Elitist headstocks for export with the round top. To me they look even worse than the regular “clipped” headstock. But if given the option to buy a Japanese export Elitist or a Chinese Epi, I wouldn’t let headstock preference sway my purchase decision (too much).


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

vadsy said:


> passing judgement is what separates us from the animals,., except the weasel, the Lord also gave him that ability.


.........and sharks. Don't judges usually have a career as a shark before moving up?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

troyhead said:


> I don’t get that one either. Doesn’t seem to be hurting Fender much that the Squier headstocks are the “genuine” shape.
> 
> My least favourite is the Japanese Epiphone Elitist headstocks for export with the round top. To me they look even worse than the regular “clipped” headstock. But if given the option to buy a Japanese export Elitist or a Chinese Epi, I wouldn’t let headstock preference sway my purchase decision (too much).


I bought a Korean Epi ES175 with that headstock. I'm not a big fan of them, either. I would have much preferred a Gibson-shaped headstock but it was too good of a guitar for too good of a price to pass up. Besides, I own a Dean, so obviously I'm not very fussy about headstock shapes. Along as it doesn't boat-anchor that end of the guitar down, it's all just aesthetics. I hardly see them from where I'm standing.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

Lola said:


> I am sorry to say but I want a premium brand name guitar! I just do. Don’t hate me because of it.
> 
> I could of gotten my PRS by now if I wanted to settle for an SE but I would rather have an S2. I just do.


I'm the same way Lola. As a kid I always wanted a American Fender Tele and Strat as well as a Gibson Les Paul. All my idols back than played them. When I got back into playing guitar 6 years ago the first guitar I bought was a black AM Standard Strat followed by a AM Standard Tele a few weeks later. A few months after that I started buying a few Gibson Les Pauls. At the time my disposable income aloud me to do this so I took advantage of it. Bill from the Oshawa L&M loved me, lol. I own 12 guitars now, all I bought new and all are American made except for 3. I don't get involved too much over the Gibson VS whoever or the why pay so much for a American Fender threads because I don't want to come across like a snob. When ever people start talking about the price of things it seems people get all defensive about why their lower priced version of whatever is better. Maybe in some cases they are but I choose what I buy only because that's what I wanted as a kid. People shouldn't get upset by that or think I wasted my money for buying new. A friend of mine a few weeks ago kind of pissed me off. He bought a 2 year old Ram pickup truck, nothing special but still a nice basic truck. I just bought a new Ram truck and paid close to twice as much as he paid. This will be the last truck I ever buy in my life time so I kind of went all out on it and got one with every option. We were at a party and he starts running his mouth about how much I paid for it even though I never told anyone and how he could have bought two of his trucks. I just laughed at him but he was trying to justify to everyone why his 2 year old truck was just as good as my new one. I don't understand why people do this. I finally just told him yeah in reality they both can do the same job, but as I'm sitting in my leather seat mine blows cool air on my butt as I'm doing it.


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## sillyak (Oct 22, 2016)

So long as you aren't going into debt or making poor long term financial decisions, there is no shame in buying and enjoying nice things.

Do you need a Gibson or AM Fender to sound good? Heck no. If the Gibson or AM Fender does something for you (regardless of your skill) and you enjoy it and can afford it, then it is worth it.


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## Kerry Brown (Mar 31, 2014)

If you feel good about your guitar you will play better. If a brand name makes you feel good then go for it. If I'm honest with myself I prefer my Gibson and Godin guitars over my Fender, Epiphone, and other guitars. For my Acoustics it's my Larrivee over my Yamaha. Some of my "off" brand guitars are just as good if not better than than the big brands but for some reason I feel better about the big brands. At the same time I play the "off" brand guitars more. Who says we have to be logical about our choices


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

TA462 said:


> I'm the same way Lola. As a kid I always wanted a American Fender Tele and Strat as well as a Gibson Les Paul. All my idols back than played them. When I got back into playing guitar 6 years ago the first guitar I bought was a black AM Standard Strat followed by a AM Standard Tele a few weeks later. A few months after that I started buying a few Gibson Les Pauls. At the time my disposable income aloud me to do this so I took advantage of it. Bill from the Oshawa L&M loved me, lol. I own 12 guitars now, all I bought new and all are American made except for 3. I don't get involved too much over the Gibson VS whoever or the why pay so much for a American Fender threads because I don't want to come across like a snob. When ever people start talking about the price of things it seems people get all defensive about why their lower priced version of whatever is better. Maybe in some cases they are but I choose what I buy only because that's what I wanted as a kid. People shouldn't get upset by that or think I wasted my money for buying new. A friend of mine a few weeks ago kind of pissed me off. He bought a 2 year old Ram pickup truck, nothing special but still a nice basic truck. I just bought a new Ram truck and paid close to twice as much as he paid. This will be the last truck I ever buy in my life time so I kind of went all out on it and got one with every option. We were at a party and he starts running his mouth about how much I paid for it even though I never told anyone and how he could have bought two of his trucks. I just laughed at him but he was trying to justify to everyone why his 2 year old truck was just as good as my new one. I don't understand why people do this. I finally just told him yeah in reality they both can do the same job, but as I'm sitting in my leather seat mine blows cool air on my butt as I'm doing it.


Some ppl just don’t know when to STFU!

I love trucks especially big rigs. We had a GMC SLT Denali Truck with every bell and whistle possible and now we have a 2019 GMC Sierra 1500 crew cab with every possible option for taking the family, dogs etc to the cottage. My hubby also bought a 2019 GMC Terrain for tooling around the city. We have worked our asses off all of our lives and if we can afford luxury vehicles you can be sure we’re going to buy them. I don’t care whether ppl are jealous or not. We buy what we like. We earned it. Too bad so sad if anyone is jealous. I don’t fucking care!


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Kerry Brown said:


> If you feel good about your guitar you will play better. If a brand name makes you feel good then go for it. If I'm honest with myself I prefer my Gibson and Godin guitars over my Fender, Epiphone, and other guitars. For my Acoustics it's my Larrivee over my Yamaha. Some of my "off" brand guitars are just as good if not better than than the big brands but for some reason I feel better about the big brands. At the same time I play the "off" brand guitars more. Who says we have to be logical about our choices


So psychology works even when we don't want it to? If we are honest with ourselves that affects most of us from time to time whether it be guitars or something else.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Steadfastly said:


> So psychology works even when we don't want it to? If we are honest with ourselves that affects *ALL OF US* from time to time whether it be guitars or something else.


FIFY

You are the walking, talking poster child of this phenomenon. You regurgitate marketing boilerplate on this site more than any 6 other people. You are obviously effected by marketing and yet you don't think you are. Perhaps that is because, in some situations, you have your head in the sand (i.e. you won't see this response) and don't really want to admit the truth about this to yourself?


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## Markus 1 (Feb 1, 2019)

torndownunit said:


> To me the sweet spot are companies that have some production in Asian countries, but they do their assembly and QC here. That is what Reverend does, and even though their prices have increased over the years, I still feel they are the best value out there. Through dozens of guitars, my Flatroc has always been my #1. Every component, every part of the design are so well thought out.





I was going to mention my appreciation for Reverend.... and yes they seem to have hit the right balance.
I have a Pete Anderson semi hollow that just keeps growing on me. The neck especially is great and the build quality is really really good. Made in Korea. QC in USA


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Markus 1 said:


> I was going to mention my appreciation for Reverend.... and yes they seem to have hit the right balance.
> I have a Pete Anderson semi hollow that just keeps growing on me. The neck especially is great and the build quality is really really good. Made in Korea. QC in USA


From what I have heard over the last couple of years, that is another company that has upped their game. Your post is another confirmation of the dedication they are putting into their products.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Markus 1 said:


> I was going to mention my appreciation for Reverend.... and yes they seem to have hit the right balance.
> I have a Pete Anderson semi hollow that just keeps growing on me. The neck especially is great and the build quality is really really good. Made in Korea. QC in USA


It also helps that Joe Naylor designs the pickups. They are a guitar where every little detail is well thought out. They are a combination of what I like in other guitars, done in a unique way that (I think) looks great.


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## torndownunit (May 14, 2006)

Steadfastly said:


> From what I have heard over the last couple of years, that is another company that has upped their game. Your post is another confirmation of the dedication they are putting into their products.


My oldest Reverend is now 17 years old I believe. It's a first gen import. They have always been this good. It's just they are finally getting some attention for it.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Great discussion. I'll throw in my thoughts. I feel that Fender, Gibson, PRS and other big brands are also putting in a lot of the same dedication into their products. Just on a bigger scale that is bound to have more issues regarding QA with so many guitars going out. Glad the folks at Gibson are consolidating their units into 1 solid fighting force! Up the Gibsons....eeerrr Irons. 

Aside from that, I'm just glad I can play the guitar. I put a lot of work into it.


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## Delores Streisand (Nov 4, 2018)

Steadfastly said:


> From what I have heard over the last couple of years, that is another company that has upped their game.


“Upped their game”? Reverends have always been good.


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## Maxer (Apr 20, 2007)

Don't think I've actually picked up a Reverend but I have to say I always thought they got it going on with their designs. They 'think different' and I really appreciate their style. They riff on the history of the electric guitar while doing their own thing that nicely distinguishes them from Gibson and Fender.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Delores Streisand said:


> “Upped their game”? Reverends have always been good.


Yes, generally that is correct although I have seen some cheap electrics and their acoustics were not known to always be of the highest quality. While most companies produce guitars for different markets with different price points, Reverends never had a lot of respect for their acoustics. I have seen that changing.


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## Delores Streisand (Nov 4, 2018)

Steadfastly said:


> Yes, generally that is correct although I have seen some cheap electrics and their acoustics were not known to always be of the highest quality. While most companies produce guitars for different markets with different price points, Reverends never had a lot of respect for their acoustics. I have seen that changing.


Acoustics? You’re making this shit up.


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## Markus 1 (Feb 1, 2019)

torndownunit said:


> It also helps that Joe Naylor designs the pickups. They are a guitar where every little detail is well thought out. They are a combination of what I like in other guitars, done in a unique way that (I think) looks great.



Yupp... those p90s are lovely. And for instance the approach they take with semi hollow body design. the bracing internally is done differently and the acoustic sound in the case of my own guitar is full and loud without amplification. Wood choice is great too. I find that I think of this guitar as an instrument made in the US even strictly speaking it isn't.
I know this is highly psychological and I acknowledge that my perceptions are likely very subjective..

>For example the other day I played a Yamaha Revstar in L&M (it was a trade in at a great price) and it was great. just great. Probably on a par with my Reverend. I turned it over and saw it's made in Indonesia and suddenly I "realized" I had a tight budget. 
Go figure...


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Delores Streisand said:


> Acoustics? You’re making this shit up.


You have obviously not been on the AGF forum.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Mr. Google told me it doesn't appear that Reverend even makes Acoustics. Their site doesn't have them either. But I don't know the brand. What are you talking about Steadly?


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Please post some links.


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## Delores Streisand (Nov 4, 2018)

Steadfastly said:


> You have obviously not been on the AGF forum.


You’re speaking like some kind of authority, but you’re completely making shit up. I’m beginning to sense a pattern here.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Delores Streisand said:


> You’re speaking like some kind of authority, but you’re completely making shit up. I’m beginning to sense a pattern here.


I think a few members can point it out over the years for you


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Delores Streisand said:


> You’re speaking like some kind of authority, but you’re completely making shit up. I’m beginning to sense a pattern here.


You can have it any way you want. I am only sharing what I hear from other players. Accept it or don't. It doesn't matter to me.


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## Delores Streisand (Nov 4, 2018)

Steadfastly said:


> I am only sharing what I hear from other players. Accept it or don't. It doesn't matter to me.


It doesn’t matter to you that the guitars you’re opining on don’t actually exist? You’re the oddest dude on this board.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Delores Streisand said:


> It doesn’t matter to you that the guitars you’re opining on don’t actually exist? You’re the oddest dude on this board.


Hey, I just looked it up. You're right, I was thinking Washburn, not Reverend. What can I say. I'm not a computer.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Ooooops


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

My dear Steadfastly, I frequent the AGF and didn't have a clue what you were on about. 

But I found your Reverend Washburn:










Handsome devil.

Reverend John Hutchinson, Washburn, c. 1870


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

lulz,,., great turn to this thread


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

Delores Streisand said:


> You’re the oddest dude on this board.


my guess is its similar for him on the AGF


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Mooh said:


> My dear Steadfastly, I frequent the AGF and didn't have a clue what you were on about.
> 
> But I found your Reverend Washburn:
> 
> ...


Yep, I have seen your over there a number of times as well as a few others.


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## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

Gawd I love this place!


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## johnnyshaka (Nov 2, 2014)

Lola said:


> Some ppl just don’t know when to STFU!
> 
> I love trucks especially big rigs. We had a GMC SLT Denali Truck with every bell and whistle possible and now we have a 2019 GMC Sierra 1500 crew cab with every possible option for taking the family, dogs etc to the cottage. My hubby also bought a 2019 GMC Terrain for tooling around the city. We have worked our asses off all of our lives and if we can afford luxury vehicles you can be sure we’re going to buy them. I don’t care whether ppl are jealous or not. We buy what we like. We earned it. Too bad so sad if anyone is jealous. I don’t fucking care!


Maybe scale back on the vehicles a little bit...like by something year or two old for 25% less than new and you can buy a stable of PRS S2 guitars with the savings!


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## Rozz (Aug 1, 2018)

Life can be confusing:


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Swervin55 said:


> Gawd I love this place!


Never a dull, sane, logical moment.


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## Lola (Nov 16, 2014)

johnnyshaka said:


> Maybe scale back on the vehicles a little bit...like by something year or two old for 25% less than new and you can buy a stable of PRS S2 guitars with the savings!


My husband would never scale back on vehicles ever. Brand new or nothing!


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