# Amplifier neccesary?



## will r yum

I'm getting two 800 watt PA speakers and i'm going to be using them for gigs and for personal use (i.e. iPod music). If i use them with my iPod do i need an amplifier?


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## jimihendrix

hey there..you can use one of these...










read the review here...

http://www.amazon.com/review/R3QINFZTW5GP3R/ref=cm_cr_pr_viewpnt#R3QINFZTW5GP3R

"quotes"

"I was looking for a portable speaker to drive my iPod loud enough to be heard in an open hangar."

"It also has a plug in to use as a guitar amp."


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## will r yum

I'm getting the two PA's no matter what, so I just want to know if i'll have to hook up my iPod to the amplifier.

Thank you though, that looks interesting.


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## Gene Machine

*yes*

unless they are powered speakers, you will need an amplifier. your IPOD will not be able to power them. That would be like trying to fly a 747 with a 5 HP lawnmotor engine.

if they are powered speakers, you could use a stereo splitter.

if not, you want a stereo power amp.

cheers.


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## mrmatt1972

yes, you need power to run the PA speakers whether with an iPod or otherwise.


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## will r yum

I'm sort of scarce with money after the speakers are purchased, does anyone know of any low budget amps?


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## will r yum

What if I had a mixer and i plugged my iPod into the mixer and then plugged the speakers into the mixer? Would I still need an amplifier?


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## MaxProphet

you need speakers w/built in amps, mixer w/built in amp, or an amp. the speakers won't run on sunshine.


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## will r yum

good way to put it. amps start at what though, $200ish? i need to find a pretty cheap one that will do it's job as i don't have much spare cash after the purchase of the speakers.


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## will r yum

alright, another noob question.
what wattage will the amp need to have in order to get the speakers to their maximum volume?


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## will r yum

I've been looking around for cheep amplifiers for a few hours now and this is the cheapest but most powerful one I can find.
http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHA500
any comments on it?


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## will r yum

i'm now looking at this amp: http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHEP2000

I'm just shocked by the prices. I actually expected Behringer to have a cheap amp I could grab. Apparently not.


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## wayne

You were wondering what was needed to use your ipod with these speakers. I'm curious - how were you planning on powering them for gigs? Some sort of PA amplification will be necessary, and those amps you listed above are quite cheap. Frankly, I don't know how they can sell gear that powerful at those prices and still make money.

If you're looking for home stereo on a ghetto budget and already have an ipod, try and score yourself the best computer speakers you can afford. 800W for home stereo is overkill (<--understatement of the month!).

800W is, however, a reasonable amount of power to gig in a small place. If you got a good score on those PA speakers, and it sounds like you did, then you've got a good start on a PA system for you/your band.

It just sounds to me like you're trying to use one tool to solve two very different problems.

W


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## will r yum

I am going to be buying an amplifier no matter what, for gigs like you said.

I actually got two 1200 watt speakers (Tapco by Mackie) so my main question was could I just directly input my iPod into the speakers. And I got my answer which is no.

Aside from gigs though, when i'm not using the speakers, I will have them probably hooked up to my TV or iPod, that's when we're (the band) not rehearsing, having fun, at a gig etc.

I know those amps are cheap, which is why I want one. I don't have a lot of extra cash after I bought those speakers so I need the cheapest possible amp I can find. Then I guess a christmas present would be a better amp.

My question now would be what is a good amp for two 1200 watt speakers.


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## mrmatt1972

You should go into a shop and talk to some people. Tell them what you have and your gig requirements. Always err on the side of extra power when it comes to a power amp, just don't get so much that you blow up your speakers. If I was putting together a rig from scratch I would ONLY get powered speakers, subs and monitors. It is so much easier to move and set up. Also, powered subs ROCK!


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## RIFF WRATH

check out a Tapco (Juice, if I recall corectly) (by Mackie) power amp.......good quality for the $........I got mine at LA Music..........


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## hollowbody

will r yum said:


> alright, another noob question.
> what wattage will the amp need to have in order to get the speakers to their maximum volume?


Depends on the speakers themselves, but I'd like to point out that this is a bad idea for 3 reasons:

1) You'll go deaf.

2) Running speakers at their peak for a long time will 100% absolutely, positively blow them to smithereens

3) An amp beefy enough to do this will likely cost more than the $200 you've got. Most cheapie amps are Class D Switching amps that have a very high peak wattage, but low sustained wattage. A decent Class A/B amp with the ability to put out sustained high wattage will run you quite a bit more.


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## lbrown1

hollowbody said:


> Depends on the speakers themselves, but I'd like to point out that this is a bad idea for 3 reasons:
> 
> 1) You'll go deaf.
> 
> 2) Running speakers at their peak for a long time will 100% absolutely, positively blow them to smithereens
> 
> 3) An amp beefy enough to do this will likely cost more than the $200 you've got. Most cheapie amps are Class D Switching amps that have a very high peak wattage, but low sustained wattage. A decent Class A/B amp with the ability to put out sustained high wattage will run you quite a bit more.



which is why we end up renting from L&M on gig day

We use a wee little Fender passport 150 watt portable system for jams and practices

another band that I play in as a "guest" uses a BOSE "Stick"...strictly for keys and vocal amplification, but man oh man - that thing is sweet!...shove the mic right in front of any speaker on it and no feedback!...kinda expensive devices though


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## will r yum

So what is a good high wattage amp for these two speakers?


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## will r yum

Anyone who doesn't know what speakers I'm talking about:
http://www.zzounds.com/item--TAP6925


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## will r yum

Actually, I'm thinking of getting two of these - http://www.zzounds.com/item--TAP6915

Would those give me loud sound? I know I probably sound like the biggest noob but I have no idea how loud those can go.


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## lbrown1

so many options - so many things to consider for the application

my advice - is don't buy online - go to a store who sells pro audio - get live recommendations from people who know what they're talking about - see, touch the product


rent a few to try out scenarios......

I'm envisioning disappointment and longer term larger expense with the route you're going

just my 2 cents.


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## will r yum

You think I should go with active/powered speakers?


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## Brennan

Let's take a step back and figure out exactly what it is you're looking for. You want a system to use for gigs and also for home use .... what size gigs are we talking about, and how many inputs are you going to need? (just vocal mics, whole band etc...) Once you have this narrowed down, decide on your budget. From there, it will be much easier for people to help you get exactly what you should be looking at.


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## will r yum

Outdoor gigs with a few hundred people. I'll probably have around 9 inputs going to the mixer. 5 drum mics, 2 normal mics, 2 guitar/bass inputs. Home use is not what we're focusing on. Pretend I never said that.


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## hollowbody

will r yum said:


> Outdoor gigs with a few hundred people. I'll probably have around 9 inputs going to the mixer. 5 drum mics, 2 normal mics, 2 guitar/bass inputs. Home use is not what we're focusing on. Pretend I never said that.


Geez...ok, that changes things. Outdoor gigs will require a LOT more power than indoor ones, because you don't have walls reinforcing the sound. 

Hopefully Milkman will chime in at some point, because he has a lot of experience with this stuff, but I'm thinking you're going to have to spend quite a bit of money in order to get something that will work for you for an outdoors gig of that size. 

You might be better-off renting on an as-needed basis. How often do you see yourself putting on these gigs??


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## will r yum

I want to own rather than rent. So those 1200 watt Tapco's that I originally posted would be best off then for outdoor gigs? Instead of the 600 watts one?

600 watt: http://www.zzounds.com/item--TAP6915
1200 watt: http://www.zzounds.com/item--TAP6925


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## hollowbody

will r yum said:


> I want to own rather than rent. So those 1200 watt Tapco's that I originally posted would be best off then for outdoor gigs? Instead of the 600 watts one?
> 
> 600 watt: http://www.zzounds.com/item--TAP6915
> 1200 watt: http://www.zzounds.com/item--TAP6925


Well, it depends really. If you buy the bigger speakers but end up with less money to spend on an amp, then you're not really going to get much out of them. Remember, the wattage rating on a speaker is what it _can_ put out, not what it _will_ put out. 

Actual output will depend on the amp, and although the actual db level is algorithmic and won't be too different between 200 and 1000 watts, what _will_ change is the level of "authority" you hear. Larger amps have better damping and therefore have a better handle on large drivers, so you get things like better, tighter bass.

For large outdoor gigs (assuming a fairly large, open area), you should be looking at an amp that can put out at least 500w/ch (preferably 1000) and to go with that, yes, the 1200 watt Tapcos are what you should be looking at.


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## will r yum

With the purchase of those speakers I won't have a hell of a lot of money left over. So i'll be buying a cheap amp until Christmas when I get more cash to buy a good one. So just until then (it will only be practices and rehearsals, no gigs until after xmas) would http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHA500 suffice for an amp?


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## kw_guitarguy

For outdoor sound with a few hundred people, I am assuming they aren't all huddled together.

As hollowbody said, outdoor shows give you no surfaces to reinforce the sound. Therefor you require substantial power to get a good, clean, loud sound.

My guess is, for drums, two guitars and vocals, two speakers and an amp isn't going to cut it.

Milkman does LOTS of outdoor shows and I would wait for him to post (hopefully soon)

My suggestion, (I have done/do live sound, but very little outdoors) would be this:

-Two main speakers, minimum 1000 watts dedicated two channel amp for them minimum 1200 watts/channel

-At least one subwoofer, probably in the 600 watt+ range, with a dedicated mono amp for it (drums, bass guitar, low end etc...)

-Probably 5 monitors, one for the drummer, one for each vocalist and 1 for each guitarist. This would allow each individual to hear what's going on (required for outdoor shows in my opinion) and would also help reinforce the sound.

If you just want something cheap to get going, I don't think you are going to be happy.

If all you can afford is two speakers and an amp, then I guess the best advice is to get the best quality and most powerful you can...

However, wait for Milkman...

~Andrew


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## kw_guitarguy

will r yum said:


> With the purchase of those speakers I won't have a hell of a lot of money left over. So i'll be buying a cheap amp until Christmas when I get more cash to buy a good one. So just until then (it will only be practices and rehearsals, no gigs until after xmas) would http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHA500 suffice for an amp?


As hollow said, you will be putting 230 w @ 4 ohm into a 1200 watt - 8 ohm speaker...not the best idea. If you want to get that amp, get two and run each on bridged on each speaker, which will give you 500 watts at 8 ohms bridged...

~Andrew


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## lbrown1

I recently did an outdoor show - for approx 70 people...but it was a fairly large yard enclosed by trees....we had an 800 watt yorkville - 2 speakers, plus 2 monitors no sub...we ran vox and guitars through it...bass and drums were unmic'd

we set the PA volume to level set with the drums.....it all worked VERY well - we didn't need much of the power from the amp/mixer


however - if it were an open field - I suspect we'd have been pretty quiet


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## will r yum

Thanks all of you, it helped. I suppose I'll limit it to indoor gigs then. Until I work up the cash for more equipment to do outdoor.

I can probably find some decent monitors for a good price also. But remember, all I _want_ right now is 2 speakers and an amp. That's all the money I have right now. Then over the next few months and christmas i'll look into buying a mixer, a better amp, some stage monitors, subwoofer(s) etc.

But like I said I can't buy an inane amp right now because of money. I'll buy the best that I can and it will do for rehearsals and whatnot. Then I will get something bigger and badder.

I guess I'll wait for this almighty Milkman to pitch in his two cents, see what he thinks.

Could someone also do me a huge favour and explain to me what "XXX w @ XX ohm" means? thank you.


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## Brennan

I would strongly suggest looking at used PA systems, you'll be able to stretch your money much farther that way. Take a trip down to the nearest L&M, and see what they have in the used/consignment section. You can usually find some great deals.


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## kw_guitarguy

will r yum said:


> Thanks all of you, it helped. I suppose I'll limit it to indoor gigs then. Until I work up the cash for more equipment to do outdoor.
> 
> I can probably find some decent monitors for a good price also. But remember, all I _want_ right now is 2 speakers and an amp. That's all the money I have right now. Then over the next few months and christmas i'll look into buying a mixer, a better amp, some stage monitors, subwoofer(s) etc.
> 
> But like I said I can't buy an inane amp right now because of money. I'll buy the best that I can and it will do for rehearsals and whatnot. Then I will get something bigger and badder.
> 
> I guess I'll wait for this almighty Milkman to pitch in his two cents, see what he thinks.
> 
> Could someone also do me a huge favour and explain to me what "XXX w @ XX ohm" means? thank you.


I am no electronics wiz, but the jist of it is this:

Speakers have a given resistance, measured in ohms. Some common ones are 4, 8, 16 ohms.

Amplifiers are rated to produce a certain of power (watts) at a given resistance. So for example, my Ibanez head produces 100 watts at 8 ohms, but produces 120 watts at 4 ohms.

The speakers you are looking at are 8 ohm speakers. The amp can run in two channel mode, but it needs a 4 ohm load, or you can bridge the two channels and get 500 watts at 8 ohms...

I guess that might confuse you more! haha...

This may help:

http://www.hometoys.com/htinews/feb04/articles/polk/impedence.htm

~Andrew


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## will r yum

On the speakers I want it says 8 ohms like you said.
I'm selling my xbox and getting some extra money so i'm looking into this amp (http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHEP4000) but that doesn't go up to 8 ohms? but it has 4 ohms bridge mode. Does bridge mean both of the two outputs are being used?


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## hollowbody

will r yum said:


> On the speakers I want it says 8 ohms like you said.
> I'm selling my xbox and getting some extra money so i'm looking into this amp (http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHEP4000) but that doesn't go up to 8 ohms? but it has 4 ohms bridge mode. Does bridge mean both of the two outputs are being used?


Yes, so the amp becomes a mono amp, not a stereo.

As a rule of thumb, you're safer running an amp into a higher load (8 or 16 instead of 4) than into a lower load (4 or 8 instead of 16). However, this is not a set rule, as the difference in loads might work the amp harder than it should.

To be safe, you should have an amp that matches the load of the speaker, so 8 ohm speakers running on an amp designed to put out x watts @ 8 ohms.


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## will r yum

What would happen if I got that amp and used it with the speakers?


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## will r yum

Oh, nevermind. I found this "700 watts per channel at 8 ohms; 4,000 watts at 4 ohms bridged.". But why is it so low? It can do 4000 watts? Why does it go all the way down to 700 wats at 8 ohms?


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## hollowbody

will r yum said:


> Oh, nevermind. I found this "700 watts per channel at 8 ohms; 4,000 watts at 4 ohms bridged.". But why is it so low? It can do 4000 watts? Why does it go all the way down to 700 wats at 8 ohms?


Because it can't.

I don't know what amp it is you're looking at, but _very_ well designed amps will double in wattage when you halve the load. I haven't seen or heard of a single amp that can increase wattage 6x after halving the load. Either the rating @ 8ohms is really conservative, or the rating @ 4ohms is an outright lie. It might be a peak rating and not RMS, which means it can very briefly put out a stupid amount of juice, but not consistently.


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## will r yum

http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHEP4000 - that's the amp. so 8 ohms requires more power to run then? that's why it can't output as much as a 4 or 2 ohms which doesn't require as much power?


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## hollowbody

will r yum said:


> http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHEP4000 - that's the amp. so 8 ohms requires more power to run then? that's why it can't output as much as a 4 or 2 ohms which doesn't require as much power?


It's 4000 watts into 4ohms bridged.

It's still 1400 watts into 4ohms in stereo, which is double the 700 watts into 8ohms, which makes sense. Though it being a Behringer, I would still guess those power ratings are fairly liberal. They are probably measuring the amp running at _at least_ 1% distortion, maybe closer to 10%. You want your guitar amp to distort, not your PA.

As far as ohms, no it doesn't require more power, it's just that when the impedance drops, power tends to go up because the resistance between the speaker and amp is lower. Whether the output tranny's can handle it or not depends on the design.


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## will r yum

Well it'll have to do until I can save up a good amount of cash for a decent amp. But that would work well wouldn't it? I have no idea how loud that would make my speakers.


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## kw_guitarguy

Okay...

With amps as hollow said, you have PEAK and RMS...speakers will also have a PEAK and RMS handling rating.

For example, the speakers in my 4x12 cab get approx 30 watts each...however, that would be their RMS...they can run at 30 watts all day and never blow...however they probably have a peak of around 100 watts. I could feed them 100 watts briefly and they would be ok.

If the amp says it can go from 700-4000, the 4000 is a peak and a marketing gimmick.

Do yourself a favour, find a two channel amp that offer around 300-400 watts/ch at 8 ohms to go with those speakers.

Something like this would do:

http://www.zzounds.com/item--CWNXLS402 - it's less power than the Behringer, but I would personally go with Crown over Behringer...I have a feeling if you measured the Behringer with an oscilloscope the power output would be lower that stated..


This article should help with impedance questions...

http://www.epanorama.net/documents/audio/speaker_impedance.html
~Andrew


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## will r yum

260w at 8 ohms, I have no idea how loud that will make my speakers. Will it only give my speakers 260w each?


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## kw_guitarguy

Power isn't everything and size doesn't always matter 

I have played through a 50 watt tube head that would blow my 100 watt head out of the water...can my head send more power to the speakers, sure, but it would sound like ass....whereas the 50 watt head will send 50 watts of nice sounding power all day long.

The 300 watts on the Crown would probably get your speakers as loud as the 700 from the Behringer, because, well...it's a Behringer...

You could pump 2000 watts to your speakers, and yeah it would get loud, but it would be distorted, muddy, and all around sound like poop...

In a live sound scenario, I would prefer to have less power, but clean, well balanced power, than gobs of crappy power from a crappy amp..

Anyway, this is just my opinion


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## will r yum

That makes total sense, thank you. I'm going to buy the Crown ampwith the speakers then. Just one question, how loud will it make the speakers go? Like 100% being absolute maximum and will blow in a few minutes and 0% being, well, silent.


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## kw_guitarguy

You gotta get over this "how loud will my speaker go" thing...

You can run 10 watts through those speakers and they will get loud, but it will sound like ass...

I would say, 300 good watts through those speakers, is gonna be plenty loud and sound good...

~Andrew


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## will r yum

That's what I was going to ask next... I want clean sound over loud sound.The crown amp does 260 w though, it'll still sound fine?


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## hollowbody

will r yum said:


> That makes total sense, thank you. I'm going to buy the Crown ampwith the speakers then. Just one question, how loud will it make the speakers go? Like 100% being absolute maximum and will blow in a few minutes and 0% being, well, silent.


You keep asking how loud it will make your speakers go. There's no real way to tell just by numbers, other than real damned loud. 

As an estimate, I can tell you this much.

Your speakers have a sensitivity of 102db

A 300-watt amp will push those to about 126db

Which, according to this chart is about the level of loudness where *pain begins*. Which, if I guess correctly, is probably what you're looking for.

So, yeah. Basically, plenty loud.

FWIW - the 700 watt amp will give you about 129db and the 1000 watt amp won't get you much beyond that anyway.


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## will r yum

At 126db it will still sound clean?

I'm really appreciative of you guys helping me out like this. I know i'm probably the biggest noob you've met but thanks is all I can say.


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## hollowbody

will r yum said:


> At 126db it will still sound clean?
> 
> I'm really appreciative of you guys helping me out like this. I know i'm probably the biggest noob you've met but thanks is all I can say.


No, probably not. 

But honestly, are you _ever_ going to have it that loud???

The closer an amp comes to it's maximum output, the more distorted it will sound. Unless the manufacturer is really conservative with their power ratings (and some are).

Trust me on this, before you get _anywhere_ near 126db, you'll be running screaming from the room with blood coming out your ears. That's really, really friggin loud.


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## will r yum

I didn't realize that's how loud it was, wow. What is a normal gig then? 90db?


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## hollowbody

will r yum said:


> I didn't realize that's how loud it was, wow. What is a normal gig then? 90db?


No, it would be in the 110-120 area, but that's on a large stage or arena. If you play your speakers at 120db in a smaller room, you'll be pretty deaf in short order.

Basically, anything around 120db or more will start to cause serious hearing loss fairly easily.


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## wayne

RIFF WRATH said:


> check out a Tapco (Juice, if I recall corectly) (by Mackie) power amp.......good quality for the $........I got mine at LA Music..........


What he said ^^^

I know, "serious" sound guys scoff at this brand (mostly the ones that don't know what it means to be on a budget!), but the band I'm in has been using a 1400W Juice for a couple of years now with little problems.

Another "budget" option worth looking into is cast-off rental gear. From time to time, shops that rent PA will replace their equipment in the interest of reliability. Make no mistake - any gear bought this way will be thoroughly beat when you get it, but it'll be cheap. Just treat them as disposable, and use them until you can afford better gear.

W


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## will r yum

Thank you to everyone, you don't understand how much you've helped me.

For anyone who cares; i've decided on two tapco 6925 speakers (http://www.zzounds.com/item--TAP6925) and a crown xls 402 amp (http://www.zzounds.com/item--CWNXLS402)


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