# She outta be slapped!



## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

So last night, driving home from work, I'm heading down the road that is the primary access to my subdivision and I come across a young mother pushing her baby in a stroller. Nothing unusual about that.

Thing is, she's on the road. The baby, a pre-toddler, is in one of those "go fast running mom zero friction three wheel jobbies with the big bike wheels on it" strollers. The mother is going hell-bent-for-election ....... on roller blades.

Mom is doing about 15kph, doing the "rollerblade-sway" thing using up about a six foot swath while cars are zipping around her doing sixty clicks. Oh yeah - she's going with the traffic. I stopped at a stop sign and watched her continue on thinking: 

"What happens if she catches a pebble"?

Well, the stroller would go up and over at 15 kph, or tumble sideways, or swerve 2 feet into the path of a car .........

I thought about it all night. That mom - she outta be slapped.


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## bagpipe (Sep 19, 2006)

I see similar things around here - also drives me crazy. totally irresponsible.

One of the busiest roads around here (Eagleson Road in Kanata, for anyone around here). Three lanes in each direction, no bike lanes, with cars travelling around 80 to 90KMH, and jockeying for position at the many right and left turns. I frequently see this one guy on this road on a bicycle, with 2 young kids in one of those bike trailers!

Man, I'm an experienced cyclist and I avoid this road like the plague - I've frequently seen drivers pulling bone headed stunts, and this guy is pulling his kids in a trailer? Boggles my mind.


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## Big_Daddy (Apr 2, 2009)

I don't know what some people are thinking. When I was living in London a few years back, I watched a man on a 10(?)-speed pulling one of those little canvas 2-wheel trailers with his baby in it. This is on a busy 4 lane city street.
He made a fairly high-speed right turn into a subdivision and the trailer rolled over twice and spilled the kid out into the street. Fortunately, the child was wearing a helmet 'coz his head bounced off the pavement and, even more fortunately, there were no cars coming.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

bagpipe said:


> I see similar things around here - also drives me crazy. totally irresponsible.
> 
> One of the busiest roads around here (Eagleson Road in Kanata, for anyone around here). Three lanes in each direction, no bike lanes, with cars travelling around 80 to 90KMH, and jockeying for position at the many right and left turns. I frequently see this one guy on this road on a bicycle, with 2 young kids in one of those bike trailers!
> 
> Man, I'm an experienced cyclist and I avoid this road like the plague - I've frequently seen drivers pulling bone headed stunts, and this guy is pulling his kids in a trailer? Boggles my mind.


Go down to Bloor West, you'll see that kind of crap all the time. Me, I'm very cautious with my little one, especially after that freak Natasha Richardson accident.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Do cyclists and in-line skaters *deserve* to have some space? Sure. Problem is, some people mistake what they think they *deserve* for an accurate estimate of *actual* risk.

So, is it a terrible thing that so many cars are cluttering and polluting the planet when a nice clean-n-green option like a bike exists? Absolutely. But whether one is morally or existentially "in the right" has absolutely no bearing over what happens when human and car collide at 60 clicks. Physics doesn't care about morality.


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## bscott (Mar 3, 2008)

mhammer said:


> Do cyclists and in-line skaters *deserve* to have some space? Sure. Problem is, some people mistake what they think they *deserve* for an accurate estimate of *actual* risk.
> 
> So, is it a terrible thing that so many cars are cluttering and polluting the planet when a nice clean-n-green option like a bike exists? Absolutely. But whether one is morally or existentially "in the right" has absolutely no bearing over what happens when human and car collide at 60 clicks. Physics doesn't care about morality.


Yeah well - you can't force common sense or thinking through what you are about to do. Unfortunately innocents usually end up paying the price of our or someone else's stupidity.
Even if you stopped her and mentioned the possibility of an accident she I wonder if she would really consider the possibility?

Brian


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

It was the COMBINATION of things that got me riled.

Those strollers are designed primarily for runners. Depending on safety features, most remain connected via a strap to the runner, and have simple "safety" brakes. Used at a jogger's pace of 6 - 8 mph, and safety-strapped to the jogger, who is running on the sidewalk and can stop on a dime - even if falling .... well that scenario is fine with me. Even if he/she is running on tarmac - facing traffic.

BUT ....... on roller blades...... Perhaps someone who is better on the blades can tell me how you panic stop while holding on to the stroller ...... or what happens to that stroller if you let go of it at 15 or 20 KPH .....


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## danbo (Nov 27, 2006)




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## mrmatt1972 (Apr 3, 2008)

We have one of those jogger strollers and one of the 1st safety rules in the manual is "No roller blading" they don't add "dumbass" but they should.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

mrmatt1972 said:


> We have one of those jogger strollers and one of the 1st safety rules in the manual is "No roller blading" they don't add "dumbass" but they should.


Yeah well that's for the poeple who need the "Do not operate this appliance while in the bathtub" disclaimer!


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## kat_ (Jan 11, 2007)

My bike is my main form of transportation and I'll ride some routes that less experienced riders shouldn't. I know the risks and I take them, but even if I'm just riding with a friend then I take different routes - less traffic, slower traffic, more space. Those kiddy trailers are for going around the block in a quiet suburb and nothing more than that. There's no excuse for endangering kids.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

kat_ said:


> My bike is my main form of transportation and I'll ride some routes that less experienced riders shouldn't. I know the risks and I take them, but even if I'm just riding with a friend then I take different routes - less traffic, slower traffic, more space. Those kiddy trailers are for going around the block in a quiet suburb and nothing more than that. There's no excuse for endangering kids.


Yeah, that's what I would have thought .... but I just came from reading some other threads on this and related topics elsewhere. Seems that "kids love to go fast" and trailers that they easily "do 45 mph with" and bladers that do 5 minute miles with baby's strapped in to backpacks. One woman recommended a design that didn't allow the baby's head to "connect with the pavement" because she's tipped her stroller "several times".

These would be the same parents that thought a five-point seatbelt and a UV sun protector are essential features. 

Sometimes it sounds like Natural Selection is hard at work.


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## Rugburn (Jan 14, 2009)

Though I'm sure this person deserves your contempt, many drivers have lost all patience and respect for bikers, pedestrians and other non-automotive travellers. Pedestrians' "right of way" has slipped from being the law to being merely a suggestion in many drivers' minds. This has been aided and abetted by urban planning designs that accomodate drivers first. As more and more cities/municipalities start implementing stringent restrictions on vehicular access to core areas, it will be interesting to see the reaction from the public. Less pollution and good old fashioned excercise seems like a no-brainer to me. Sadly, the lazy bones many of us have become, form the greatest oposition to this line of thinking. I believe most cities have by-laws regarding cyclists using sidewalks, but I rarely see them using roadways. It's just too damn dangerous for them. It shouldn't be this way. Even the streets in my city with cycling lanes aren't used by most cyclists, because of the high speeds and dangerous/selfish behaviour of drivers.

Shawn.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

i was here in toronto about 4 months when i gave my car away. it just isn't neccessary for me here at this time. i go everywhere on the ttc or on my bike. 99% of the time i ride in the street and follow the traffic laws the way i'm supposed to. it's actually safer this way. it never fails to irk me when i see the avg person here ride the sidewalk, going the wrong way on their 24" supercyle with not enough air in the tires. or the cycle bums towing a baby carriage full of bottles and cans, in that little half lane between parked cars and traffic, still going the wrong way. when they get hit it's their own fault, but yet the driver gets the ticket. that ain't right.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

A few years ago, with a "phone in and ask" show with the commentator Roy Green and the then police chief of Hamilton, during a discussion on car seats, one person called with this question:


> "I saw a car on the highway with two children jumping around the back seat. Should I have called 911?"


The police answer was an official one. Whenever you see a child that is in a position of imminent risk (and unbelted children are) it is not just 'the proper thing to do' but mandated that you call and report it as a crime in progress.

Since then, yes, I have made calls of 'crimes in progress' and I have seen people taken into custody as well. Children not only deserve the elevated level of protection, they absolutely need every citizen to uphold that level of protection.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

There is a situation where someone is using their rights. Unfortunatley, they may end up dead right. I think the gene pool needs some chlorine!


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

keeperofthegood said:


> A few years ago, with a "phone in and ask" show with the commentator Roy Green and the then police chief of Hamilton, during a discussion on car seats, one person called with this question:
> 
> 
> The police answer was an official one. Whenever you see a child that is in a position of imminent risk (and unbelted children are) it is not just 'the proper thing to do' but mandated that you call and report it as a crime in progress.
> ...



I have to say that I see that all the time on the 400!! I think it's a matter of educating people new to the country for the most part. I'm not slagging anyone, it's simply an observation.

One thing alot of people don't realise is it's against the law to even sell used car seats at garage sales etc. They are treated as helmets, if you're in a crash (even a small one) it's recommeded to get a new seat. I was at a community yard sale last weekend and I saw dozens! My Mother in law bought me a used one when I was pregnant and I flipped out! Child safety is not something to take lightly.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

A co-worker just told me that on her way home last night she came upon a man riding a bike, with a dog on a leash, and a child in a bike trailer - riding with traffic on a busy thoroughfare. She drove behind him because he took up most of the road and she was afraid to pass in case he swerved........


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

As an aside, our younger son's former elementary school frequently brings the kids to the local outdoor rink during the winter. Just to avoid mishaps, we asked parents to donate used bike helmets for kids to wear on such occasions. Some will come to school with a helmet on those days, but many forget there is a skating/toboganning day, and many parents who are new Canadians have no knowledge of such things, so the school keeps a bunch on hand as emergency supplies. Your kids are gonna need a bigger helmet eventually. May as well do something useful with their old one.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

mhammer said:


> As an aside, our younger son's former elementary school frequently brings the kids to the local outdoor rink during the winter. Just to avoid mishaps, we asked parents to donate used bike helmets for kids to wear on such occasions. Some will come to school with a helmet on those days, but many forget there is a skating/toboganning day, and many parents who are new Canadians have no knowledge of such things, so the school keeps a bunch on hand as emergency supplies. Your kids are gonna need a bigger helmet eventually. May as well do something useful with their old one.


We have much the same here. This year, one of the parents got tired of all the used equipment, and went out and got a very large lot of new. This is where the political will has to happen though. However, since politicians are bonehe... well, staying non-partisan, safety should not be a political issue, but a given, especially when we are legally mandated to entrust our children to the schools. There should be provided all needed safty measures required in the teaching of a class. Be that helmets for skating or goggles for woodshop (and as our son curls, he has a helmet, it cost the same as his safety goggles, ten dollars after tax). If the class requires it the class should provide it. Same should go for drinking water. In a school of 300 (my childrens school) they cannot sell bottled water, they have 1 working water fountain, and who thinks that school water fountains are safe sources of water has .... welll, anyways. Heat stroke is easily prevented, drink water; and when not can lead to brain damage, coma, and death.

Car seats, cribs, strollers, saucers, walkers, swings, these are all not legal for resale or trade. I am not sure on play-pens or cribs. Our first crib was used, and my son ate his way through it, he needed a second crib ^^; and my daughter got a new crib. We gave away the playpen when it was no longer needed. Of all the baby equipment we had/used that first crib was the only non-new thing we had.

Being new to Canada can be a great cause of troubles too. People from countries not nearly as media infused or educated as Canada may simply not know "why" or "that" it is not just illegal but plain bad to do some things. If you never hear on your news the number of childeren that die due to poor safety equipment, it would not be on your radar that there is such a thing as death due to poor safety equipment. 

I have a young friend in the USA with whome I was talking last night. She was amazed by a 1 year old that could do pull ups. She (and I really) could not do a pull up if we tried. However, a few years ago on the Health Canada web-site it was stated that here in Canada the ability to do a pull up is concidered a life saving ability. Apperently there are a lot of people that fall through ice in Canada  and the ability to pull yourself out of the water and onto the ice is what that is about!

Of course the police do need to do more educational campaigns too. In the past 5 years of school, I can only think of one police safety lecture my son has had. 35 years ago we had the police every year, the firedepartment every year (OMG 'Tough Pal' was awesome! never like his chang to 'too bad charlie brown' LOL) and the dental hygene was in every year. Somewhere along the way, we stopped teaching kids about the Real Life world, and have now gotten to where they need to be able to do maths and reading and writing by the end of Kindergarten  AND HAVE HOMEWORK!! (though I knew words and scentences and what math was in Kindergarten, grade 1 was really where I began to learn math, and I learned to read books in grade 2, I was reading Frederic Forsyth by grade 3, and Tolkien by grade 4. I don't think I was in any way educationally dissadvantaged for learning to read in grade 2).

:rockon2: yup, you see a person driving erratically with children in heavy traffic, just call 911. Bike or not, it is governed by the Highway Trafic Act as a vehical.

** Edit, because I feel this is important and because I feel I lack all the answers in full, and because the HTA is not clear to me as written, I am waiting to talk to Burlington phone number _905 825 4747_ ext #_2310_ *Staff Sargent Lloyd* in order to be properly informed and to ease some of the questions this thread has raised in me at the least 

**Edit 2 @[email protected] if it all don't beat all. Apparently it is legal to Rollerblade AND push a stroller, even on roads. And it is also legal to walk your dog on a bike while towing children :O The Srg did say "you gotta use common sense" and I fully agree, doing these things IS stupid, however, there is nothing specifically making these acts illegal. As to any child device, that apperently falls under non-police rules. Industry standards etc. That has to be assesed on a case-by-case basis. Well, I have learned some things today!!!


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2009)

I'm looking at a big old label in my bike helmet here that says to discard it after any impact or after 4 years. Natch. Gotta go buy me a new helmet. This one has hit more than a few trees around here. :smile:


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

iaresee said:


> I'm looking at a big old label in my bike helmet here that says to discard it after any impact or after 4 years. Natch. Gotta go buy me a new helmet. This one has hit more than a few trees around here. :smile:


I can understand them being discarded after an accident but if we need to discard every helmet that's four years old isn't that an aweful lot of "1,000 years in a landfill" plastic?

Slightly off topic, my dad, who owned a motorcycle repair shop, was fond of telling the story of a fellow who was stopped by police shortly after the law requiring you wear a helmet in Ontario, while riding a motorcycle, came into effect (1971?). Anyway, seems that the rider had his shiny new helmet strapped to his knee. After a stern lecture from the cop, he put the helmet on his head and rode off grumbling. Two miles down the road he gets into an accident and breaks his knee. Well, it was funny when my dad told it :smile:


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## Guest (Jun 11, 2009)

allthumbs56 said:


> I can understand them being discarded after an accident but if we need to discard every helmet that's four years old isn't that an aweful lot of "1,000 years in a landfill" plastic?


Yup. I'll take an educated guess here: the foam definitely breaks down over time, and the break down can be accelerated by exposing it to different climates and conditions -- faster if it's in the hot sun all the time for example. So four years is, under normal wear and tear and environmental conditions, as long as Specialized (or whomever made the helmet for Specialized that I bought) is willing to promise the helmet's effectiveness remains sufficient to protect you in a crash.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

iaresee said:


> Yup. I'll take an educated guess here: the foam definitely breaks down over time, and the break down can be accelerated by exposing it to different climates and conditions -- faster if it's in the hot sun all the time for example. So four years is, under normal wear and tear and environmental conditions, as long as Specialized (or whomever made the helmet for Specialized that I bought) is willing to promise the helmet's effectiveness remains sufficient to protect you in a crash.


isnt there a plastic made from corn starch that has a 'relatively' short decomposition compared to traditional plastics?

And what else erodes plastics (from memory) are the sulphur and nitrogen oxides in the air. Same chemicals that when mixed with water form acid rain. Anything not UV stabilised will also be eroded by sun.

Hmm... interesting situation of planned obsolescence. Is it materials science being what it is, is it corporations with built in turn over, or is it safety standards ensuring people have no other recourse than to attain fresh/new? Good questions all.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

keeperofthegood said:


> isnt there a plastic made from corn starch that has a 'relatively' short decomposition compared to traditional plastics?
> 
> And what else erodes plastics (from memory) are the sulphur and nitrogen oxides in the air. Same chemicals that when mixed with water form acid rain. Anything not UV stabilised will also be eroded by sun.
> 
> Hmm... interesting situation of planned obsolescence. Is it materials science being what it is, is it corporations with built in turn over, or is it safety standards ensuring people have no other recourse than to attain fresh/new? Good questions all.


So .... should we also throw away the bumper assemblies in our cars every four years? They are, after all, plastic-coated foam like the helmets. Maybe on my ten-year old car they'll just go "puff" if I'm rear-ended ......


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

allthumbs56 said:


> So .... should we also throw away the bumper assemblies in our cars every four years? They are, after all, plastic-coated foam like the helmets. Maybe on my ten-year old car they'll just go "puff" if I'm rear-ended ......



 TEN YEARS OMG My 2001 Mazda MPV lasted less than THREE! Then half the engine block melted @[email protected] the lights all burnt out in my dash @[email protected] the computer cooked @[email protected] the seat cushion spring welds broke and ripped through the seats (THOSE really hurt too, Eventually I had to rip out the springs because of them poking up into my legs) @[email protected] and there were MANY more than just those issues with it!! Gosh, even the glove compartment door fell of :O OMG

Actually, I have seen articles on the inferiority of modern bumper systems on cars and how that has lead to a massive increase in repair costs and in the cost in insurance claims.


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## Starbuck (Jun 15, 2007)

keeperofthegood said:


> isnt there a plastic made from corn starch that has a 'relatively' short decomposition compared to traditional plastics?
> 
> And what else erodes plastics (from memory) are the sulphur and nitrogen oxides in the air. Same chemicals that when mixed with water form acid rain. Anything not UV stabilised will also be eroded by sun.
> 
> Hmm... interesting situation of planned obsolescence. Is it materials science being what it is, is it corporations with built in turn over, or is it safety standards ensuring people have no other recourse than to attain fresh/new? Good questions all.


Yeah but you know what? This is your _brain_ we're takling about. Is it really worth the risk? I know someone who was brain injured after a seemingly benign fall ice skating. believe me, not. worth. the.risk.


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

Starbuck said:


> Yeah but you know what? This is your _brain_ we're takling about. Is it really worth the risk? I know someone who was brain injured after a seemingly benign fall ice skating. believe me, not. worth. the.risk.




Agreed :O OMG I wasn't suggesting the NOT wearing, only that materials science was able to made something that would work and not be landfill for 1000's of years at the same time.

The speculation is "is the usable time frame for safety equipment a function of a, b, or c?", wondering on the 4 year time frame. That is rather a short time of use. Unlike shoes, they are not walked on, and just as in unprotected body parts they should also not be regularly beat on. As is pointed out, foams and plastics can be made to last much longer than 4 years in many other applications, so why not with helmets?

:bow: brains otherwise should be protected.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

cheezyridr said:


> It never fails to irk me when I see the avg person here ride the sidewalk. That ain't right.


It is illegal to ride your bike on the sidewalk and dangerous, especially to older and infirm people who can't get out of the way quick enough.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

I'm hopeful at some point cities will decide that bicycle lanes are a needed addition to the infastructure and put them on busy roads . It would be good to see them on highways too , all they need to do is pave the shoulders . I know some will think this is costly but it's best to promote safety as well as conservation/clean air . I think if these were in place they would get a fair bit of use . 

As for cycling/rollerblading on busy city streets with a baby ???....kqoct


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

nitehawk55 said:


> I'm hopeful at some point cities will decide that bicycle lanes are a needed addition to the infastructure and put them on busy roads . It would be good to see them on highways too , all they need to do is pave the shoulders . I know some will think this is costly but it's best to promote safety as well as conservation/clean air . I think if these were in place they would get a fair bit of use .
> 
> As for cycling/rollerblading on busy city streets with a baby ???....kqoct


Hamilton began doing this a few years ago. Honestly though, if I sat for a year and counted the actual number of bikes to use a lot of those lanes, I would be hard pressed to find one a week. Some areas that got bike lines I drove regularly and in the course of not just days but years never saw a bike once.

I am not disagreeing with bicycle use lanes, but they really need to be planned out better than what Hamilton and now Burlington has done.


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

keeperofthegood said:


> Hamilton began doing this a few years ago. Honestly though, if I sat for a year and counted the actual number of bikes to use a lot of those lanes, I would be hard pressed to find one a week. Some areas that got bike lines I drove regularly and in the course of not just days but years never saw a bike once.
> 
> I am not disagreeing with bicycle use lanes, but they really need to be planned out better than what Hamilton and now Burlington has done.


That's a shame , I really thought that if these were in place it would encourage the use of cycles .


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## keeperofthegood (Apr 30, 2008)

nitehawk55 said:


> That's a shame , I really thought that if these were in place it would encourage the use of cycles .


It has been 30+ years since I was at Amsterdam However, my memories of the city are of one heck of a visit. 

Not only were the diamond shops amazing, and the Van Gho museum VERY worth the visit, or the countryside tour excursions to glass blowers and cheese makers SO very very enjoyable ... on of our "close calls" came with something that was to me than and is still now TOTALLY foreign. Not only were there paved roads for cars, there were cobblestone roads WITH lit intersections and proper road signs for bicycles. The bicycle litteraly had it's own road system there!!

30 years on, I still will tell people that a Netherlands vacation is worth while. If I have the funds, I want to go back myself too. I had the best vacations of my life there :rockon2: and at the time, I was 9!


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## nitehawk55 (Sep 19, 2007)

keeperofthegood said:


> It has been 30+ years since I was at Amsterdam However, my memories of the city are of one heck of a visit.
> 
> Not only were the diamond shops amazing, and the Van Gho museum VERY worth the visit, or the countryside tour excursions to glass blowers and cheese makers SO very very enjoyable ... on of our "close calls" came with something that was to me than and is still now TOTALLY foreign. Not only were there paved roads for cars, there were cobblestone roads WITH lit intersections and proper road signs for bicycles. The bicycle litteraly had it's own road system there!!
> 
> 30 years on, I still will tell people that a Netherlands vacation is worth while. If I have the funds, I want to go back myself too. I had the best vacations of my life there :rockon2: and at the time, I was 9!


I lived in Soest Germany from 1965-68 from age 10-almost 13 and Amsterdam was one vacation our family took as well as several other cities in Europe . The bicycles and use of small mopeds are used in a lot of Europe within the cities and I recall there being a lot of them ! One thing was pedestrian cross walks on the streets were clearly marked and the vehicals really did stop :smile:


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Starbuck said:


> Yeah but you know what? This is your _brain_ we're takling about. Is it really worth the risk? I know someone who was brain injured after a seemingly benign fall ice skating. believe me, not. worth. the.risk.


Aha - now we're back to the original topic. That woman, and the many like her that appear to be out there, should be slapped silly for endangering her child like that.


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