# NGD - Firebird Pickups



## KV242 (Jan 6, 2013)

I've had my Firebird V for a while now, and although I love this guitar, the original Gibson pickups have left me wanting more out of this guitar. I've tried a few different things to improve the tone and output of these pickups, but it was never 100%. As a result, the Firebird has spent more time in it's case than in my hands. I'd like to play this guitar more and be pleased with it's tone, so I searched and researched high and low for months to find what might be the best replacement pickups me for my Firebird. Again and again, my search always ended with Jason Lollar and is handmade pickups. Finally convinced, I took the plunge ordered a set. Today they arrived! I'm dying to install them and get an earful of the different, but I want to first find the time (and a mic) to record some licks with the Gibson pickups so I really A/B the two sets and qualify the differences. Updates to follow. 

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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

You have me interested.....


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Subscribed!

Years ago, I was in an L&M guitar shopping.
I'd tried out several Gibsons with humbuckers in the isolation booth.
Without changing any settings on the amp, I plugged in a Firebird. Ouch!
Between the howling, screeching and general shrillness of the guitar, I was turned of, to say the least.

I love the shape of these guitars, but I didn't get along with those pups.
Lollars have a great rep and get tons of praise, so you should be better off.

Will you be able to upload your findings? I'm intersted in the outcome.


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## Firebird1991 (Nov 11, 2012)

Hey there,

I have a 1991 Cherry Red Firebird.

Searched long and hard for the vintage bird neck pickup tone.

The bridge pu sounds pretty decent.

However, the neck pu sounded nothing like a vintage bird (ie Johnny Winter).

Long story short, I now have a Seymour Duncan Antiquity 2 pu from the custom shop in the neck position (new cover/not aged) and lightly potted. Installed a 500k volume pot for the neck. Now it sounds amazing.

Would like to hear how you find the Lollar's (I heard these pickups sound fantastic but not 100% vintage which
is not always a bad thing).

Let me know if you require anything.

I also considered Novak or Klein pickups for pure vintage tone - however, SD provided top notch help/correspondence.

Cheers
John


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## Roryfan (Apr 19, 2010)

sulphur said:


> Subscribed!
> 
> Years ago, I was in an L&M guitar shopping.
> I'd tried out several Gibsons with humbuckers in the isolation booth.
> ...


Ever consider the Firebird Studio? Same fiery shape, but w/ two humbuckers.


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## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

The modern high output ceramic minis are NOTHING like the lower output alnicos that were used in Firebirds in days of yore. Day and night tonal difference, really. If you want Johnny Winter's tone, you won't find it in the modern ceramic minis by a long shot. The Lollars and Antiquities with their alnico mags and more modest outputs would get you closer if they were near the 5-6 K range.


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## Firebird1991 (Nov 11, 2012)

Hey gtone - you are absolutely correct.

Hence my reason for installing the SD Antiquity Firebird pu.

Approx. 6.25 -very clear and not muddy at all. However, as confirmed by a rep at Seymour Duncan,
vintage firebird pickups are noisier than regular humbuckers due to construction.

Cheers 
John


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## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

Firebird1991 said:


> However, as confirmed by a rep at Seymour Duncan,
> vintage firebird pickups are noisier than regular humbuckers due to construction.


Noisier indeed - some of the vintage Gibson FB mini's are so microphonic you can sing into them (no joke)! Good winders like JS Moore, Lollar, Tom Short, etc. and so on have "workarounds" they can employ to help give you great vintage sounding pu's with a lot less noise. While I've never played a set of SD Antiquities, I've heard they're quite true to the vintage tone/feel and knowing Seymour, probably are a mucher lower-noise proposition than the old Gibby's also.


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## KV242 (Jan 6, 2013)

Went to L&M today picked up a mic for weekend, I plan to get the before and after recordings pickups changed by the end of the weekend. Not sure I'll be able to upload the result directly to the forum, but I will certainly find a way to share with those interested in the comparison. 

It was certainly a tough decision as far which direction to go; completely vintage tone vs modified vintage. I looked at so many options, including looking for some original 60's bird pickups. In the end I obviously went with modified. With the reputation and regards giving to the Lollars, I figured I couldn't go wrong. Plus, I'm after more of a Priestess/Rival Sons sound, so I think I'm on the right track with the Lollars.

Oddly enough, I've heard so much bad review of the current Firebird pickups and them being high output, shrill, harsh etc, but I'm am finding the complete opposite. Compared to the Bill Lawrence Originals (circuit boards) in my LP Custom and the SD Seth Lovers and Burstbucker Pros in my Standards, these Firebird pickups are very week and flat sounding to say the least. It's a 2006 Firebird, and as far as I know are the same pickups as today's models (high output ceramics), but they just don't seem to be very high output or at all harsh. Maybe someone can educate me on this. I am the second owner of this bird, and the original owner claimed everything on the guitar is original, and have no reason to believe otherwise. Maybe there's a surprise in there, good or bad, when I pull the pickups. Who knows.


John, thanks for offering a hand if needed. Any idea to the pots in a 2006 bird? I put a set of RS Guitarworks pots with bumblebee caps in my LP Custom, and let me tell you, what a difference it has made! I'm considering doing at least the pots in my bird, and may some caps too.


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## Firebird1991 (Nov 11, 2012)

Hey KV242 - glad to assist.

Believe the pot values used by Gibson - 500k for tone and 300k for volume.

The bridge pu in my 1991 Bird sounds great for rock - not vintage but pretty close to a regular humbucker which gives
me more versatility. Having said that, my bridge pickup does not sound like a "hot" pickup ie Duncan distortion or Dimarzio Super Distortion.

Anyway, the stock pu's do not have much after market value -I simply put mine in the case!

The SD pu apparently is an exact copy of a 63-65 pickup - However, there were a number of slight variations over the 2-3 years including type of wire used. The pu does produce quite a bit more hum than the stock bridge pu. The bridge pu is dead quiet. Perfect for bars with crappy wiring.

Understand the RS Guitarworks pots and caps are top notch and worth the money.

Who is installing your pickups? I had a number of problems - still can't believe the issues with a simply modification involving one pot and pu. Wiring is still messy and I will get it cleaned up one day. 

Good luck and enjoy.

Cheers 
John


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

The Firebird Studio would be another possible avenue Rf,
it's just if I were to get a FB, I'd really want the minihums.
This thread is evidence of the way around the stock pups.

Good thread guys, good info.
Thanks!


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## bluesmostly (Feb 10, 2006)

this is interesting pup info for the Firebird, mini hums. I have only ever played my own, a 64 FB III, and a friend's 65 many years ago, and I love the tone of those pups. Of course I always liked Johnny Winter's tone, so I knew I would be happy with a Firebird. The bridge one is a bit bright for my ears so I back off the tone. I did not know that the modern versions sounded that much different, glad I have a vintage one. good luck with you pup change. I can't wait to hear the difference.


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## KV242 (Jan 6, 2013)

Firebird1991 said:


> Hey KV242 - glad to assist.
> 
> Believe the pot values used by Gibson - 500k for tone and 300k for volume.
> 
> ...


I seriously considered the SD pickups, as I've had good a experience with SDs before, but I had to pass on them this time. My reason may seem petty, but I didn't like the SD logo on the covers. Not sure if they can be purchased with plain covers, but it was enough to turn me off. I would love to hear the tone you're getting from your bird, John. 

I do the majority of tech work on my guitars (and friends') myself. I'll do electronics (service/repair/replace/upgrade), hardware replacement, general setups, neck adjustments, etc. I'll do some minor fret work too. For things like nut work and fret levelling and beyond, I go to 12th Fret. I had them do a fret levelling on two of my Les Pauls last fall. Top notch workmanship!



So onto the Lollars!



After attempting to record some licks with the original Gibson pickups for comparison purposes, I sat down Saturday with my Firebird and yanked out the original pickups. They are indeed the original pickups, and the only identifiers on the them are "Pat. No. 2737842". And that's all I know about them. Filed them away with some other old, worthless hardware and stuff.

The Lolllars have the vintage single conductor braid wire, and the worst part of the job was pulling that damn braid back to the appropriate length. A slow and tedious task that took me more than 30min! The tone caps from Gibson are .02uF (or maybe .022uF) so I left them in there as that's what recommended. Along with the pickups, I ordered new pickup up mounting rings (why not, right?). Unfortunately, they are slightly smaller than the Gibson rings and the screw holes don't line up. So that was a wasted $16. The rest of the installation was breeze and went smoothly. The original bridge saddles were pretty worn, and a couple had a second groove cut into them, so I picked up a new Tone Pros bridge to replace the original (first time trying a Tone Pros). I cleaned up the guitar, put everything back together and strung up some fresh Regular Slinkys. Tuned and intonated, it was time to plug it in!

I have only a small tube/solid state practice amp at home (Fender Vibro Champ XD - 5W 1x10"), but I play through it enough to be familiar with the tone. Anxiously, I plugged the bird in, fired the amp and struck a chord. HOLY *&%#!! It's for real! I was nearly as giddy as a school girl! It is a completely new guitar! The tone is out of this world! I couldn't wait to get to my jam space to plug into my main rig! I set pickup heights and got the bird ready for the big test the next day.

Sunday mid day I got to my space and plugged into my main rig, and WOW! As great as I thought it was at home, it was over the top through my main rig, a Tweaker 40 head through an Egnater 2x12 cab (Celestion Elite 50s). At first I plugged straight into the amp as I had done for the recording with the original pickups. Not exactly sure how to articulate what I heard, but it was almost orgasmic! The note clarity and definition is unreal! Such killer articulation that was totally lost with the Gibsons. NO muddiness whatsoever! The pickups are dead quiet too! The harmonics and overtones just bloom as the as the notes ring out! The bridge has fantastic highs and mids without losing the bottom, and the neck pick up is deep and warm with a fantastic bloom of overtones in the mid-highs. Switch to the middle position and there is no disappoint there either! A perfect combination of the two for a nice thick tone with bright highs that is still all Firebird! I wasn't sure they would be worth the money, but I can say they are worth every penny, including the HST and brokerage fee I paid upon delivery. The Lollars are everything they are touted to be! The only problem now is that my Firebird now sounds better than my LP Custom! I may have to order set of Skatterbranes I've had my eyes and ears on for some time!  


I did some recording with identical settings with the Lollars for comparison. I just need to figure out what to do with the recordings and how to present them for a good comparison. First attempt at something like this. I'll certainly keep you guys posted and let you know when I have it available.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

How do these Lollars handle the microphonic feedback problem that so many mini buckers have? Can you push the bridge pickup without any pain?

I have an Agile LP copy with a mini hum in the bridge that squeals like a stadium of Bieber fans every time I push a little volume and distortion through 'em. This happened with the stock pickup as well as the Seymour Duncan mini I replaced it with. It's a bloody shame though because tonally this guitar is awesome, it's just that confounded squealing makes it unusable!


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## Firebird1991 (Nov 11, 2012)

Hey Hamstrung - several possible remedies for squeal reduction - 

1) place a piece of foam under the pickup (easiest solution)
2) place a bead of silicone under the cover - CAUTION, Firebird and mini hum pickups will fall apart
if you don't know exactly what you are doing
3) have the pickup wax potted by a pro - 12 fret still offers this service

Cheers
John


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## Firebird1991 (Nov 11, 2012)

Hey there kv242,

So glad you are happy with the Lollar's. I have heard nothing but stellar reports/reviews about these pickups.
Being a significant investment, need to be satisfied. 

My SD Firebird pickup was made in the custom shop - therefore, no SD logo or distressed aged cover. Also, I had the pickup lightly potted - even at high volume, doesn't squeal.

You are right - the 12th Fret is the best - Brian does all my work.

Wish I could have hired you when I had my pu installed. Had multiple issues that took ages to sort through. I still don't believe it and won't rehash at this time (multiple techs involved). Safe to say, Brian will need to re-wire my Bird slightly for optimal results in the future.

Regarding your Lollar's being hum free - makes me almost wish I had gone with Jason's pu. My Firebird pu sounds vintage but hums slightly when I am at certain angles to the amp. The bridge pu is dead quiet.

In my opinion (slightly biased), vintage Firebird pu's are simply the best for clear, articulate tones whether played clean or with gain. Also, no other guitar/pu sounds like a Firebird. Trust me, I have been through a mountain of guitars and pu's over the years.

Can't wait to hear your sound clips. Unfortunately, I have no way to provide.

Cheers
John


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## mister.zed (Jun 8, 2011)

I really welcome your application of the scientific method to the world of "tone". I can't count the number of times I wished I could compare before and after changing something. Can't wait to hear the clips and your impressions.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

Firebird1991 said:


> Hey Hamstrung - several possible remedies for squeal reduction -
> 
> 1) place a piece of foam under the pickup (easiest solution)
> 2) place a bead of silicone under the cover - CAUTION, Firebird and mini hum pickups will fall apart
> ...


I've tried all the "remedies" short of wax potting. I may go there at some point but I'm still curious about the Lollars.


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## gtone (Nov 1, 2009)

IIRC, only the Duncan SM-1, SM-2 & SM-3 minis have the SD logo, the Antiquities do not.

Confusing to some, but there are true mini-humbuckers and there are the Firebird minis, which are of a significantly different design. All other specs being equal, the mini HB's are true humbuckers and would tend to be less noisy by design than their FB counterparts, both in the hum and squeal departments. Wax potting and cavity shielding can go a long way towards quietening noisy pu's, minis no different in how they respond to those treatments.

When I went to replace the minis in my SG Special, I wrestled with the whole notion of "hot" vs "vintage" wind. The Special came to me with Duncan SM-2's - very hot ceramic pu's. While they were very fat/middy, had loads of output and were very quiet (wax potted), they were somewhat muddy, inarticulate and overloaded my rig too easily. I tried a set of mid-60's vintage Patent Sticker mini's that were articulate, but they quacked, barked and squealed (unpotted) and had little in the way of harmonics. So after some discussions with our very own JS (Jon) Moore, he wound me up a beautiful set of slightly overwound minis that nicely nailed that middle ground between the two extremes. I'll say this - the man definitely has a gift for being able to translate the tone you have in your head and marry it up to his creations with _your_ guitar and rig. Intuition? A good ear? Experience? All of the preceding? Don't really know for sure, but I'm DAMN glad we have him... ;^)


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## Firebird1991 (Nov 11, 2012)

Hey gtone - great summary.

Jon Moore has developed an excellent reputation for winding amazing sounding pickups.

Cheers
John


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

KV242 said:


> I seriously considered the SD pickups, as I've had good a experience with SDs before, but I had to pass on them this time. My reason may seem petty, but I didn't like the SD logo on the covers. Not sure if they can be purchased with plain covers, but it was enough to turn me off. I would love to hear the tone you're getting from your bird, John.
> 
> I do the majority of tech work on my guitars (and friends') myself. I'll do electronics (service/repair/replace/upgrade), hardware replacement, general setups, neck adjustments, etc. I'll do some minor fret work too. For things like nut work and fret levelling and beyond, I go to 12th Fret. I had them do a fret levelling on two of my Les Pauls last fall. Top notch workmanship!
> 
> ...


I'm glad to hear you're happy with the new pickups. Regarding the recordings, maybe try signing up with SoundCloud - Share Your Sounds I don't have an account myself but I've seen that other forum members are able to copy and paste the links to their sound files into the forum. I'd be interested to hear the differences between the pickups.


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## KV242 (Jan 6, 2013)

Hamstrung said:


> How do these Lollars handle the microphonic feedback problem that so many mini buckers have? Can you push the bridge pickup without any pain?


I don't find the microphonic feedback bad at all. We play pretty loudly and I haven't really had any squealing, screaming feedback. I get a little in the mids in a few places in the room, but I think it's more to do with the resonant frequency of the room.




Firebird1991 said:


> Hey there kv242,
> 
> So glad you are happy with the Lollar's. I have heard nothing but stellar reports/reviews about these pickups.
> Being a significant investment, need to be satisfied.
> ...



Thanks John. If you ever need a hand with something in the future, shoot me a PM and I'll do my best to help you out. 

I wasn't aware that I could get the Custom Shop SD's with plain covers. Had I known, I may have gone in that direction as true vintage Firebird tone is something I'm interested. But no regrets with the Lollars! Had a jam last night they really bring my Firebird alive like I never imagined. I play some harder edged rock with the fb and these pickups work beautifully for the tone I'm after. Not saying I'd be disappointed with vintage tone. I'd love to find some vintage or even a used set of SD firebird pups to try just to compare to the true vintage tone. Might be a good "excuse" to pick up another Firebird down the road for a vintage toned fb!  But other than listening to Johnny Winter albums, and few others who've played a fb, I don't really have any first had experience with some actual vintage fb tone. 


I hope to find time on Sunday to get the clips together and uploaded to SoundCloud to share. Thanks Kenmac for the suggestion! I've actually listened to sound clips hosted there, but I didn't even think of it for this. Problem solved there!


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## Firebird1991 (Nov 11, 2012)

Hey kv242,

First, a huge thanks for offering to assist. Will keep it in mind thanks.

At present, busy at work and hoping to pull the band out of semi-retirement.

Believe my best bet is to buy a new soldering iron and "man up" and re-do/clean up the wiring myself. I have done all the pickup swaps on my Fenders with no problem.
Not quite sure why I am slightly intimidated by working on my Bird. 

Really cranked my Firebird up last night at home - absolutely no feedback at all! Keeping in mind I had SD lightly pot the pickup. Had a prior Antiquity that squealed like a stuck pig!
Was essentially unusable in a gigging situation until potted.

Another bird - geez, please stop with the GAS. I would love to pickup another one someday, likely in white.

Seriously, so much of Johnny's tone is in his hands. Have followed him since the mid 70's and still marvel at the tones produced by his Birds.

Enjoy and can't wait for the clips.

Cheers
John


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## Kenmac (Jan 24, 2007)

KV242 said:


> I don't find the microphonic feedback bad at all. We play pretty loudly and I haven't really had any squealing, screaming feedback. I get a little in the mids in a few places in the room, but I think it's more to do with the resonant frequency of the room.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're welcome KV242. Looking forward to hearing the clips.


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## bolero (Oct 11, 2006)

interesting thread, thx for posting

I've been curious about firebird pups recently...heard excellent things about Novak

I tried a new '65 firebird reissue and that funky trem had the break angle so shallow, it buzzed like a sitar on the top 4 strings!! didn't look very adjustable either


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## sambonee (Dec 20, 2007)

mister.zed said:


> I really welcome your application of the scientific method to the world of "tone". I can't count the number of times I wished I could compare before and after changing something. Can't wait to hear the clips and your impressions.


I was thinking the same thing and one day, I opened a few saved channel strip settings on logic and resaved the ones I was to use with the comparative guitar. When I record the initial take with the old pickups, I record a mic with me saying the settings on the guitar. This has been my best way to AB the Pre and Post Sound.


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## b-nads (Apr 9, 2010)

I've got a Budz mini/Firebird in the bridge of my Strat and the neck of my Tele. I'm toying with putting the one from the Tele in the neck of the Strat with a Strat middle...I LOVE the tone of these things - you can get them tamed down enough to get nice SC sound, but you can dime the Vol on the guitar and rock them pretty hard...and they LOVES pedals.


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## Soderlind (Sep 18, 2014)

Do you have a 62-64 firebird? If yes, do u want to sell the pickups you replaced? Thanks.


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## axiology (Jul 22, 2014)

I like the sound of the stock Firebird pickups. I buy guitars because they sound different. The lead on the tune below is a 97 Firebird straight into a Fender HRD, using the amps overdrive:

http://axiology.bandcamp.com/track/into-the-wind


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