# They don't teach the total story to US Children .....



## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

One of my daughters did a book report on the War of 1812, they don't get into the details to our school children. BUT I made sure she had those details. 
I guess because it is a dark story of American aggressions, that doesn't paint us too well, when it came to our neighbors to the North .


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

It's the same everywhere. No different in canada; truth goes down the drain.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

We gave better than we got 

I'll never miss an opportunity to remind anyone that we burned the American Capital, Whitehouse and all.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Hooray, we were better killers than they were. Great history.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Mark Brown said:


> .... we burned the American Capital, Whitehouse and all.


Not that it matters to me but wouldn't it have been the british that did that. Canada began in 1867 or something.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Wardo said:


> Not that it matters to me but wouldn't it have been the british that did that. Canada began in 1867 or something.


Of course, but we are still and ever were a British colony. Call it Canada, call it whatever you want.... its still beavers and maple syrup.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I see North America as one big place where we all live and the way the world is goin we need to get together and take better care of it and ourselves.


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## Mark Brown (Jan 4, 2022)

Wardo said:


> I see North America as one big place where we all live and the way the world is goin we need to get together and take better care of it and ourselves.


The whole world i just one big place, piss on the continent. It kills me in a way to know that I literally won the "where I live" lottery while there are something like ten thousand children die every day from starvation. It truly is a mad, mad world.


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## Pat James (5 mo ago)

AJ6stringsting said:


> One of my daughters did a book report on the War of 1812, they don't get into the details to our school children. BUT I made sure she had those details.
> I guess because it is a dark story of American aggressions, that doesn't paint us too well, when it came to our neighbors to the North .


I always forget when this war happened.


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

Mark Brown said:


> We gave better than we got
> 
> I'll never miss an opportunity to remind anyone that we burned the American Capital, Whitehouse and all.


Truth be spoken, Canada won 🏆 🇨🇦


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

Mark Brown said:


> Of course, but we are still and ever were a British colony. Call it Canada, call it whatever you want.... its still beavers and maple syrup.


..... Don't forget Hockey and Rush !!!!


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Mark Brown said:


> The whole world i just one big place, piss on the continent. ...


True, but the world don't get along well and war is never far away; civilization is a thin veneer - scratch the surface and you have the situation in Ukraine or any number of other places just ready to light up.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

AJ6stringsting said:


> ..... Don't forget Hockey and Rush !!!!


...and Laura Secord!


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## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

Wardo said:


> True, but the world don't get along well and war is never far away; civilization is a thin veneer - scratch the surface and you have the situation in Ukraine or any number of other places just ready to light up.


I’ve been in some of the most dangerous and desperate places on earth. I’ve seen the triumph of the human spirit, but also how horribly cruel people treat each other, often by the very governments/people that are supposed to be taking care of them. 

Change the things you can, be kind to others, and never miss an opportunity to make someone’s day a bit better. Don’t be afraid to stand for what is right, be fearless.


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

mhammer said:


> ...and Laura Secord!


She was one dedicated Woman and literally saved Canada .
But, come to show you, that when it comes to survival as a People, people will rise to the occasion. 

The Natives played a huge role too .


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## Parabola (Oct 22, 2021)

AJ6stringsting said:


> She was one dedicated Woman and literally saved Canada .
> But, come to show you, that when it comes to survival as a People, people will rise to the occasion.
> 
> The Natives played a huge role too .


Canada would not exist without the help of allied aboriginal peoples. Our history is tied together more than most people realize.


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

Parabola said:


> Canada would not exist without the help of allied aboriginal peoples. Our history is tied together more than most people realize.


Natives in the US were very instrumental of the US's fight for Independence too .
Same with Mexico and other Spanish Colonial holdings in the Americas.

You know the last Mexican Governor of California ( who happened be of part African origin) was going to seek an Alliance with Britain, instead of the US .
But the Irish - Mexican citizens talked him out of it .
Heck, California would have probably be part of Canada instead .


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

AJ6stringsting said:


> Truth be spoken, Canada won 🏆 🇨🇦


Not without the help of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy.


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## YaReMi (Mar 9, 2006)

Mark Brown said:


> The whole world i just one big place, piss on the continent. It kills me in a way to know that I literally won the "where I live" lottery while there are something like ten thousand children die every day from starvation. It truly is a mad, mad world.


Luck of the draw .. enjoy ..


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## YaReMi (Mar 9, 2006)

I’m not good in history .. what year exactly was the war of 1812?


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## whyarecanadiangirlshot (2 mo ago)

AJ6stringsting said:


> One of my daughters did a book report on the War of 1812, they don't get into the details to our school children. BUT I made sure she had those details.
> I guess because it is a dark story of American aggressions, that doesn't paint us too well, when it came to our neighbors to the North .


well u guys just asked nicely for freedom like a good ole boy. we just took what was ours


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

Wardo said:


> True, but the world don't get along well and war is never far away; civilization is a thin veneer - scratch the surface and you have the situation in Ukraine or any number of other places just ready to light up.


I have 2 horses left and when they are gone I will be able to go someplace warm for Jan/Feb every year. Problem is, I don't want to pick some place where I might be shot on any given day. Why can't people just get along.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Little known fakt.

Stompin Tom lit the match!!!

Another big load 'O the best darned potatoes that's ever been growed.....

Canada's true poet laureate.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

I wonder, do Americans still think they're heroes who liberated Iraq in the 00's? Or do they teach children that they invaded a sovereign country, killed its leader, killed over a hundred thousand civilians, and installed a puppet government?


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> I wonder, do Americans still think they're heroes who liberated Iraq in the 00's? Or do they teach children that they invaded a sovereign country, killed its leader, killed over a hundred thousand civilians, and installed a puppet government?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> I wonder, do Americans still think they're heroes who liberated Iraq in the 00's? Or do they teach children that they invaded a sovereign country, killed its leader, killed over a hundred thousand civilians, and installed a puppet government?


Yeah poor Saddam. He just didn't deserve that.


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## Powdered Toast Man (Apr 6, 2006)

guitarman2 said:


> Yeah poor Saddam. He just didn't deserve that.


I didn't say Saddam was a nice man. The whole invasion was justified based on 9/11 ties (false) and weapons of mass destruction (also false). So the USA just sent their military to take over a country because they felt like it. Not sure how that make the US any better. Also it wasn't like some surgical strike to take out Saddam alone. The US military killed over 100,000 innocent civilians.

I was proud to be a Canadian the day Cretien stood in the House and said we would not participate in the invasion.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

1) I wish all wars had the same surgical precision that most tornadoes do; taking out this and that but leaving everything and everyone else unscathed.

2) As the saying goes, "history is written by the victors". But it's kind of reciprocal, insomuch as those who claim victory tend to rewrite, or shape, "history" so that it casts them as deserving "victors". I.E., maybe we won, and maybe we didn't, but now we're going to TELL you that we won, because we *deserved* to win.

3) Reality, and a fulsome perspective on how things came to be the way they are (what we like to sum up as "history"), is complicated, and not the sort of thing that could be neatly summed up in a high school textbook, or even 4 years of secondary school, if only because adopting multiple perspectives is cognitively hard for most people to do, rarely leaves anyone blameless, and is constantly being amended as we find out more.

4) I recommend Malcolm Gladwell's fascinating podcast series "Revisionist History", now in its 7th season. Revisionist History Podcast - Malcolm Gladwell Podcast - Pushkin Industries Things don't always happen the way you_ thought _they did, and "received wisdom" can often be incorrect once one digs down a little deeper.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

There are not country vs country so much as proxy wars happening.


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## whyarecanadiangirlshot (2 mo ago)

Powdered Toast Man said:


> I wonder, do Americans still think they're heroes who liberated Iraq in the 00's? Or do they teach children that they invaded a sovereign country, killed its leader, killed over a hundred thousand civilians, and installed a puppet government?


Nobody supports the Iraq war anymore. But at the time a lot of people definitely supported it.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

whyarecanadiangirlshot said:


> Nobody supports the Iraq war anymore. But at the time a lot of people definitely supported it.


Mostly because they were fed misinformation.

No doubt Hussein was a bad actor and deserved what he got, but nine of the thirteen 911 terrorists were Saudi nationals, and of course it's no secret that Saudi Arabia has a strong financial connection with the USA.

Meh, who am I to pretend I know what really happened, but I think Hussein was just a convenient scapegoat / target for some righteous indignation.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

mhammer said:


> 1) I wish all wars had the same surgical precision that most tornadoes do; taking out this and that but leaving everything and everyone else unscathed.


You lost me with the analogy. Tornadoes don't take anything out with surgical precision. Its all completely random where as war would be a little more precise with some unintended consequences and friendly fire.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Thunderboy1975 said:


> Not without the help of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy.


This is an interesting read.




__





Loading…






www.researchgate.net


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

HighNoon said:


> This is an interesting read.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is it to discount my post or further prove my point?


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Thunderboy1975 said:


> Is it to discount my post or further prove my point?


Given the directive and the all encompassing power of those behind the convergence, I don't see those in that position giving one iota of interest (except for phony inclusivity) in listening to the 'indigenous perspective'.


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

HighNoon said:


> Given the directive and the all encompassing power of those behind the convergence, I don't see those in that position giving one iota of interest (except for phony inclusivity) in listening to the 'indigenous perspective'.


I dont know what the hell your talking about sport.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

Thunderboy1975 said:


> I dont know what the hell your talking about sport.


If you have the time, read the report. It's the back story to everything going on in the world at the moment, highlighted by the last 3 years. Makes any pandemic look like a cake walk.


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

HighNoon said:


> If you have the time, read the report. It's the back story to everything going on in the world at the moment, highlighted by the last 3 years. Makes any pandemic look like a cake walk.


Naw.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

I’ll only read it if there’s some flat earth comedy mixed in there too.


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

Here in the US , they want to teach kids about, how the Germans bombed Pearl Bailey or how Custer fought bravely at Normandy .....🤪


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

A slight derail, @AJ6stringsting. Have you read "God Is Red" and/or "1491" ...Both are excellent and iconic.

Someday I hope your children will take the time to read them.


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

greco said:


> Someday I hope your children will take the time to read them.


Why is that? Why would you "hope" someones kids would read books based on the doctrine of discovery?🤨


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Thunderboy1975 said:


> Why is that? Why would you "hope" someones kids would read books based on the doctrine of discovery?🤨


Have you read "God is Red" ?


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

No but i read "The Easter Bunny Is Pink"


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Thunderboy1975 said:


> No but i read "The Easter Bunny Is Pink"


Unfortunately, you read the wrong book!


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

greco said:


> Have you read "God is Red" ?


He sounds a lot like my kids who I often tell…”you have an awful lot of opinions on shit you don’t know anything about.”


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

JBFairthorne said:


> He sounds a lot like my kids who I often tell…”you have an awful lot of opinions on shit you don’t know anything about.”


Your kids must be college/uni students.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

laristotle said:


> Your kids must be college/uni students.


Nope, you’ve met “‘em. They’re grade 9 and 10 now…but I get your point. I always believed the most important thing , maybe the only Important thing school ever teaches you is how to learn, a skill that will be necessary for a lifetime.


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## HighNoon (Nov 29, 2016)

2manyGuitars said:


> I’ll only read it if there’s some flat earth comedy mixed in there too.


It's directly related to this on the Canada gov't website. Exploring Biodigital Convergence – Policy Horizons Canada


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

JBFairthorne said:


> Nope, you’ve met “‘em. They’re grade 9 and 10 now…but I get your point. I always believed the most important thing , maybe the only Important thing school ever teaches you is how to learn, a skill that will be necessary for a lifetime.


And keep at something for at least 12 years.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

JBFairthorne said:


> *He* sounds a lot like my kids who I often tell....


To whom does "He" refer to? Vine Deloria Jr.?

My apologies to the OP for a larger derail then I had expected.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

You guys are so desperate for a political forum...

This place is impotent without it.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Adcandour said:


> You guys are so desperate for a political forum...
> 
> This place is impotent without it.


You are 100% correct. I apologize and will stop writing these posts that could be construed as "political".
I was actually viewing the topic of this thread as being more "historical" in nature.


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

Unfortunately your schools in the US don't teach anything. I am always amazed when you hear folks talk about Canada like its a frozen country and some even think of Canada as part of the US.
As for history well all I can say is I am glad I wasn't there at that time and of course they can't teach them as to what really happened. 
They don't after all want to look bad do they. And of course it has gotten even worse lately as I see it. It frightens me to see just how apart your country has become and it really scary that it still can get worse.
But what can I say I am just a crazy canuck who see's through different lenses they some others.


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## Adcandour (Apr 21, 2013)

greco said:


> You are 100% correct. I apologize and will stop writing these posts that could be construed as "political".
> I was actually viewing the topic of this thread as being more "historical" in nature.


Greco, you never have to apologize to me, lol.

We're all adults who love guitars, but we should be able to chat about whatever we want to, if it keeps our primary internet haunt entertaining and fulfilling.

Bad apples, Schmad apples


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

As long as the U.S and Canada still sics their armies on indigenous peoples trying to protect their own land there aint much difference.
Im a duel citizen so i only see things as north and south.
Canadian history class in gr schools was a joke and i learned nothing except when i attendedin Six Nations, elders would come and take us for walks to the far edge of the playground and sit us all down and would try to explain to us kids why we were living in shacks without running water and a slop pail in the kitchen.
I tried to see the positives, i got to drive at 12 to go fetch water from a friends well.
I got stung by a bee while driving back home once and drove the car right off the road and into someones yard. I took out a sign and had to turn around when i got home to go fetch the license plate and put it back on 😂
Yep us indians sure had it made, a co-worker said that to me on my first day at a new job in Sarnia a few years ago. I was educated and informed and wouldnt let someone say that to me without a short history lesson. But i dont think it changed their perspective much. Even though i built the 3 nuclear generators powering the CANDU reactors at Bruce Power and new train motors for Mongolias entire passenger train fleet, and massive turbines for Saudi Aramco. They saw me as a thorn in their side and layed me off after 3 months.
Not a woe is me post but a short "history" lesson on the educational divide and employment divide in both countries.
I didnt raise my kids with all this information, i didnt have to, no one called them dirty indians nor did they have to beg each other to go with them to the outhouse in the bush after dark. I tried to provide them the best possible upbringing by putting them in a Montessori School. My parents put us in private christian schools where the taunting was just as bad.
I gained a great friend while attending, James Larter, the son if the great political Sun cartoonist John Larter. I got to see what it was like to live in a damn castle, he came once to our house in the bush but didnt stay the night cause bro and me terrified him with stories of "Hoduies" and his dad had to come pick him back up.
He had no idea people lived this way just down the highway from his castle. 
My grandparents lived 60 years this way till they built new complete w/ plumbing.
My last history post was deleted. Too unbelievable maybe?
My blues are real not copy and pasted.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

Thunderboy1975 said:


> Hoduies


?


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

laristotle said:


> ?


The spiritual men of the longhouse would pile into the back of a pickup truck and visit elders. They would sing and dance through the house shaking turtle rattles to scare off bad medicine and bad spirits and ghosts.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

I was kinda thinking 'the boogie man' because of the '_*terrified him* with stories of "Hoduies"_ ' comment.
Google only provides 'hoodies', so no luck there.

Thanks for the explanation.


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

laristotle said:


> I was kinda thinking 'the boogie man' because of the '_*terrified him* with stories of "Hoduies"_ ' comment.
> Google only provides 'hoodies', so no luck there.
> 
> Thanks for the explanation.


Google False Face Society. Some good info.
Spelling could be "Hauduey".


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## Pat James (5 mo ago)

AJ6stringsting said:


> One of my daughters did a book report on the War of 1812, they don't get into the details to our school children. BUT I made sure she had those details.
> I guess because it is a dark story of American aggressions, that doesn't paint us too well, when it came to our neighbors to the North .


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

AFAIK the first world war got started because some guy named Archie Duke shot an Ostrich.


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

Ship of fools said:


> Unfortunately your schools in the US don't teach anything. I am always amazed when you hear folks talk about Canada like its a frozen country and some even think of Canada as part of the US.
> As for history well all I can say is I am glad I wasn't there at that time and of course they can't teach them as to what really happened.
> They don't after all want to look bad do they. And of course it has gotten even worse lately as I see it. It frightens me to see just how apart your country has become and it really scary that it still can get worse.
> But what can I say I am just a crazy canuck who see's through different lenses they some others.


In the US , they'd rather indoctrinate our children into materialism, blind devotion to greed, instant gratification and being a good little consumer, instead of an enlightened individual with a critical mind with compassion, empathy for all things living and to make a better World .

They want our children to be cut throat consumers with narcissistic intentions.

As for Canada, it's not perfect, but it is a lot more Just and rational than the US .


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

AJ6stringsting said:


> As for Canada, it's not perfect, but it is a lot more Just and rational than the US .


You might think so from where you are but it is same shit different day and the corruption here is bad although well hidden. Lottsa corruption but their system does not allow them to do anything about it or even know about it. Their government has no defense capability and would surrender to a strongly worded letter - the country would fall tomorrow if it wasn't under US military protection. Not nice but that's the way it is.


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

Wardo said:


> You might think so from where you are but it is same shit different day and the corruption here is bad although well hidden. Lottsa corruption but their system does not allow them to do anything about it or even know about it. Their government has no defense capability and would surrender to a strongly worded letter - the country would fall tomorrow if it wasn't under US military protection. Not nice but that's the way it is.


After the 2016 -2020 time period, I really question my own Country now.
Canada and the US would slay any enemy coming to our shores .

Canada's got some might buddy, I know, I was involved in Desert Shield, Desert Storm and Desert Sabre .
Canada was there .

And Canada had personnel on " D" Day ... hardly a push over Nation !!!!.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

D Day , we were there and ready to die for freedom ... and had relatively modern weapons and excellent combat training.

we were still using those same weapons in the middle east crisis ... but we had to go borrow a cup of batteries to be able to start / fly our planes.... and bum a ride with the US to get there.

today , we gave away our spare "big guns" and all our shells to the Ukraine ...
we can't order any new shells because the big guns are obsolete.

our military sharp shooters have to share pistols and rifles because there aren't any parts left.
we're still using the ones we had in the Korean war.
the replacement pistols will be bought and delivered sometime 2025, maybe.

troops train on WW2 vehicles and outdated equipment.
our armed forces go home on the weekends and last count, they were short over 1/2 of the required bodies for our military.
so the power house island of Togo could invade on Saturday and be installed by Sunday.

now we're accepting pink hair and face tattoos , cross dressing and gender non specific recruits (because no one else wants to apply for the job) . Yeah ... casual dress code for the armed forces.
I can see it now .
the canadian forces coming over the hill, Kazoos a wailing , pink hair and dresses just a waving in the air as the other army falls to the ground laughing .

our fathers are turning over in their graves.

note to admin ... please feel free to edit or delete any of this if the content is too strong.


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## Ship of fools (Nov 17, 2007)

I have found that the US would rather hide its past mistakes by denying they ever happened. This morning I watched a show that was from Florida and how the segregated black cemetery plots from the early days were suppose to be moved to make way for progress school and a small shopping mall and a office building as recently in the 1980's.
Instead of actually moving the graves they just built on top of them completely disregard for the history of those folks and they knew what they were doing.
Turns out the sale of the land did not include them to remove the tomb Stones nor the bodies left behind, sad to say the least this is not the only example.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)




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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

laristotle said:


>


Well if you want your army's first and foremost strength to be inclusion then the U.S. or British armies are the ones to join. If you want toughness, strength and honour then you're probably looking to join China or Russia. Can't imagine what the Canadian one looks like.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)




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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

I see that three commanders were fired and there's an ongoing star chamber because some pilot had an inappropriate call sign - I wonder what it was. Maybe something like "Tack Zero One" shortened to Taco1 .. lol


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

Ship of fools said:


> I have found that the US would rather hide its past mistakes by denying they ever happened. This morning I watched a show that was from Florida and how the segregated black cemetery plots from the early days were suppose to be moved to make way for progress school and a small shopping mall and a office building as recently in the 1980's.
> Instead of actually moving the graves they just built on top of them completely disregard for the history of those folks and they knew what they were doing.
> Turns out the sale of the land did not include them to remove the tomb Stones nor the bodies left behind, sad to say the least this is not the only example.


The US was built on Slavery and Genocide, as it's foundation. 
Today, American Corporations have Citizens United and the McClendon act to have a bigger voice over the Majority . If they keep going, America will look like a Dickens Novel .

In the end Canada, will probably be the last true Democracy left. 
The US is the poster child of a Plutocratic Imperial Empire devouring a Democracy, thru Big Money .


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

To go back on topic, they are trying to cover up the History of Slavery, Genocide of the US First Nations and things such as who and what caused the 1929 Stock Market Crash and even the 2008 Stock Market Crash.
The don't teach about the Iran - Contra ordeal either, where the US played both sides on the War on Drugs or Terrorism .


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

AJ6stringsting said:


> In the end Canada, will probably be the last true Democracy left.


Nice idea but maybe read a bit about that. Democracy there is on thin ice and the status quo (I'm trying to avoid using the word government here) regards the democratic process with contempt, refuses to provide documents while under investigation and refuses to answer questions when they are obliged to do by the rules in their system. And now it looks like there is foreign influence as to who gets elected. There's a lot of information out there about all of this. The other thing too is that Canada's future is linked to the United States which accounts for 85% of their trade. China is about 5%. So if the US goes down Canada is going too. I'm not preaching politics here it's just the practicalities regardless of which side of the spectrum you are on. People need to be vigilant and generally they are not.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

We will all own nothing and be happy.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

laristotle said:


> View attachment 451357


Downsview is near my office. I see those rigs on the street all the time ... lol


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

Funny, how in the US, all those things Conservatives warned about Communism, the Conservatism brought fruition in their Neoconic policies .
1. The attempted Coup Attempt on 1-6-21.
2. The lowering of the Standard of Living.
3. Democracy being threatened.
4. The Constitution being whittled away.
5. Freedom to be Free From Religion .

Sorry, buddy .
Anarchists Chaos, is a failure, the 2016 -2020 time period, proved it's true corrupt failed inferiority and hypocrisy.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

AJ6stringsting said:


> Funny, how in the US, all those things Conservatives warned about Communism, the Conservatism brought fruition in their Neoconic policies .
> 1. The attempted Coup Attempt on 1-6-21.
> 2. The lowering of the Standard of Living.
> 3. Democracy being threatened.
> ...


Didn't you learn anything from the last time you were suspended?


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

oldjoat said:


> D Day , we were there and ready to die for freedom ... and had relatively modern weapons and excellent combat training.
> 
> we were still using those same weapons in the middle east crisis ... but we had to go borrow a cup of batteries to be able to start / fly our planes.... and bum a ride with the US to get there.
> 
> ...


While I appreciate your concern, you're about 15-20 years out of date.

The big guns are M777, which are from 2005 and are current.

Rifles are MacMillan TAC 50 and .338 Timberwolf, both current. 3 of the top 6 longest sniper kills are Canadian, with the current record being a little over 3.5km. They're currently tendering a replacement rifle.

I can't argue the pistols. The Browning High Power is a decent pistol, but ours are pretty f'kn old and shot out. That said, Sig Sauers have been in service for years for those that really need them, and for the remainder of the army they've tendered a contract to buy 7000 Sig Sauer P320s that should start delivery early next year.

I'm not sure where you found we're deficient 50% our manpower. Best I can figure out we're sitting somewhere around 10,000 short on a 101,500 established strength (IMO, the real issue is in the way that we manage people, and that 100,000 probably isn't enough to sustain the current and increasing number of tasks being assigned).

The CF Dress Instruction needed to be updated. While everyone is focusing on the pink hair, not many are pointing out that a dude with a beard and neck tats is now recruitable. The old policy was biased against white males due to enforced tradition while others were accommodated for ethnic/cultural reasons. People can bitch and moan all they want about the idea of anyone being accommodated in the first place, but the new policy brings everyone onto the same page, and I personally appreciate not having to shave during winter. Further, from a recruiting perspective the "warrior" look has evolved from the '80s Jarhead with most recruits probably thinking they're signing up for Call of Duty.

That's not to say it's all sunshine and lollipops. The CAF is (IMO) fucked up and in need of reform, but our kit is generally high quality (although generally insufficient in quantity) and the colour of hair and/or nail polish worn by some sonar operator or dental hygienist isn't going to lose the war.

IMO/YMMV


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

_Azrael said:


> While I appreciate your concern ............


What about the bilingual requirement for promotion reducing the pool of good candidates and perhaps turning people away from enlistment. Read an essay from someone at the RMC talking about how that just hasn't worked out and LCols pissed about goin nowhere.


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## AJ6stringsting (Mar 12, 2006)

Damn, when I served , the M-16 A2 was king ..... boy, I'm old 🤔


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

even though your country ( after the assimilation ) tried to destroy the true natives , 
canada wasn't far behind . We starved and returned the native refugees to the US .....

all governments are basically corrupt ( the *politicians* themselves ... of all stripes, not just one brand )
they look out for themselves and their buddies , and has been so throughout history.

pick *any* country worldwide ( or province in canada ) and you will have atrocities in their past , present and future. 

it may get better at times but eventually the pendulum swings the other way .

I saw a map of North America from the US side.
where Canada should be was labeled "NATURAL RESOURCES"


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## Pat James (5 mo ago)

Wardo said:


> You might think so from where you are but it is same shit different day and the corruption here is bad although well hidden. Lottsa corruption but their system does not allow them to do anything about it or even know about it. Their government has no defense capability and would surrender to a strongly worded letter - the country would fall tomorrow if it wasn't under US military protection. Not nice but that's the way it is.


I SMH at our justice system EVERY TIME I see a despicable murderer get released on parole. We have a guy who beheaded someone on a greyhound bus that is walking the streets. He was granted an absolute discharge.

Welcome to Canada.


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

_Azrael said:


> The CAF is (IMO) fucked up and in need of reform, but our kit is generally high quality (although generally insufficient in quantity) and the colour of hair and/or nail polish worn by some sonar operator or dental hygienist isn't going to lose the war.


can't , and won't argue with most of that.

but every time we get close to ordering any "equipment" , we have another assessment and go in a different direction.

many decisions are made , then rescinded , then challenged in the courts by MFGS because of too many restrictions and requirements.Then forced to do another RFP

not pointing at any party ...
but buying used subs that sink ( do we actually have a sub capable of leaving dock side?),
buy obsolete scrapped planes from Australia so we can get parts for ours
building ships that are still on the drawing board ( design changes ) that should have been delivered years ago and will cost billions over budget. ... they could buy many fine vessels built in other parts of the world for a fraction of the cost and delivered on time.

All they have to do is follow the NATO allies lead (or the US) and they should get decent equipment for the money.

CAF is woefully underfunded and neglected by all past and present governments.


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Procurement has been a joke for decades. I think there was a ship building contract given to a yard and now they need a government grant because they don’t have the facilities to build the ships for which they were given the contract for… lol


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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

Pat James said:


> I SMH at our justice system EVERY TIME I see a despicable murderer get released on parole. We have a guy who beheaded someone on a greyhound bus that is walking the streets. He was granted an absolute discharge.
> 
> Welcome to Canada.


Recent Chinese guy charged with spying given bail after a couple of days; he’s probably on a plane back home right now. Tamara what’s her name charged with mischief held for 45 days released incarcerated again released and given a trial date two or three years from now so that she remains under bail conditions for years and for what would ordinarily be a summary conviction $100 fine offence.


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## Pat James (5 mo ago)

Wardo said:


> Recent Chinese guy charged with spying given bail after a couple of days; he’s probably on a plane back home right now. Tamara what’s her name charged with mischief held for 45 days released incarcerated again released and given a trial date two or three years from now so that she remains under bail conditions for years and for what would ordinarily be a summary conviction $100 fine offence.


It's a joke


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

Wardo said:


> I think there was a ship building contract given to a yard


YUP ... Irving shipyard
and they were chosen because they were supposed to be able to build the ships without anymore funding ...
now they want 300 million ( free grant ) to do shipyard upgrades so they can start.

"it will add hundreds of millions more to the final cost, a price tag that has already ballooned from the original $26 billion to $77 billion and counting" 

nice to have friends in high places , huh.

not all their blame ... the final specs are a moving target.


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

We built a shit load of AOPS motors for Irving in 2013-17 destined to power Coast Gaurd patrol ships. Millions was poured into renos at GE to build those and the 3 nuclear generator motors for Bruce. Once they were done they shut down. After pumping millions into a new manufacturing building that was in use for only 6 years.


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

Wardo said:


> What about the bilingual requirement for promotion reducing the pool of good candidates and perhaps turning people away from enlistment. Read an essay from someone at the RMC talking about how that just hasn't worked out and LCols pissed about goin nowhere.


I have zero French and I'm not a fan of the bilingual policy, but they have made changes... being bilingual is no longer worth as many points toward promotion and bilingualism is only required for those who are in designated bilingual positions, which are relatively few and far between. There's probably more to it, but I stopped caring about the details once they reduced the bonus to where it hasn't affected me.

How it works at the LCol level, I have no idea. They're pretty much politicians at that point.


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## _Azrael (Nov 27, 2017)

oldjoat said:


> can't , and won't argue with most of that.
> 
> but every time we get close to ordering any "equipment" , we have another assessment and go in a different direction.
> 
> ...


They've made significant changes to procurement (starting under Harper). It initially produced some dismal results and massive delays, but it's improved over time and reduced the emphasis on going with the lowest bidder. We already follow NATO allies lead in purchases (German tanks, British howitzers, American/Austrian trucks, Canadian LAVs, American TAPV, etc). We moved away from locally designed/built a while ago with a shift to COTS (Commercial Off The Shelf). 

The irony about decisions being challenged in the courts is that it appears to have made the process less politicized, since political interference leads to court challenges. I think it's made it difficult for politicians to favour certain regions (made in Quebec) since international companies now have access to the domestic market via free trade agreements, and a mechanism to enforce it via the courts.

I support the shipbuilding thing, mostly because I support using military spending to support Canadian industry and Canadian jobs.

There's probably more to it, I'm not a procurement expert. The system isn't perfect, but I think it's better than it used to be. I'd support anything that took the politics out of it, but in theory politics makes it accountable to the voter. I kind of wish they'd adopt something like in the US where there's a 10 year plan backed by a bipartisan memo of understanding.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)




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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




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## Wardo (Feb 5, 2010)

1980, they need to get some new ones… lol


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## oldjoat (Apr 4, 2019)

reviewed , ordered, cancelled , paid the penalty fee, reviewed , ordered, cancelled , paid the penalty fee, reviewed , ordered, cancelled , paid the penalty fee, reviewed , ordered, cancelled , paid the penalty fee, reviewed , ordered, cancelled , paid the penalty fee, reviewed , ordered, cancelled , paid the penalty fee, reviewed , ordered, cancelled , paid the penalty fee ...

still reviewing at this point ... still stuck with Vietnam war technology ... and quickly running out of used spare parts.

lets put some politicians up in our rickety old air frames and see how long they debate the issue .


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