# PSA: Gibson listened to people complains.



## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Is changing stuff's a good idea?
Probably.

Is everyone's gonna be okay with those choices?
Probably not.

That's the game.

Gibson deceided to reverse the changes: https://reverb.com/blog/breaking-gibson-to-revert-prices-and-specs-on-2016-models?_aid=fb


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

I think they likely paid more attention to sales numbers than they did customer complaints. If they were listening to the customers they would have ditched all the changes right after they were announced, not waited until the next year.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

JBFairthorne said:


> I think they likely paid more attention to sales numbers than they did customer complaints. If they were listening to the customers they would have ditched all the changes right after they were announced, not waited until the next year.


I'd bet this is correct, the numbers probably started out slow and dropped from there as people started discussing the "improvements", it took less than 3 quarters of this years sales records to establish a serious downward trend and for Henry's minions to put the brakes on the changes.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)




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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

JBFairthorne said:


> I think they likely paid more attention to sales numbers than they did customer complaints. If they were listening to the customers they would have ditched all the changes right after they were announced, not waited until the next year.


I'm pretty sure changes are impossibles to do on a production line with such a short notice.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

I was just about to make a thread about this Ti-Ron.

Thank you for the info and thanks to the Reverb email as well.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

pretty much proves what i've been saying all along about their pricing


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Still not buying a new Gibson ever


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## Ti-Ron (Mar 21, 2007)

Dorian2 said:


> I was just about to make a thread about this Ti-Ron.
> 
> Thank you for the info and thanks to the Reverb email as well.


Thanks!
Reverb have a really informative newsletter!


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## GWN! (Nov 2, 2014)

I am sure all the people that bought a 2015 Gibson are thrilled with that news.


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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Very shortly we'll have guys who will specialize in "converting" 2015 models, new nut, remove the scary hologram and the scribble, tuners that will last more than 2 years, or 40 gigs (whichever comes first) etc etc


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

JBFairthorne said:


> I think they likely paid more attention to* sales numbers* than they did customer complaints. If they were listening to the customers they would have ditched all the changes right after they were announced, not waited until the next year.


Yeah, it is always the money that will talk.


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## 4Aaron GE (Jul 12, 2009)

Man, I feel bad for anyone who bought one new during the past year.


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

4Aaron GE said:


> Man, I feel bad for anyone who bought one new during the past year.


Who knows, they might become a collectors items and go up in price. 'One year only where Gibson did this...'


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

vadsy said:


> Who knows, they might become a collectors items and go up in price. 'One year only where Gibson did this...'


That may be the thing in 15-25 years.
Or they'll be a niche guitar cult.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Jimmy_D said:


> Very shortly we'll have guys who will specialize in "converting" 2015 models, new nut, remove the scary hologram and the scribble, tuners that will last more than 2 years, or 40 gigs (whichever comes first) etc etc



can't get rid of that wider neck though.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

cheezyridr said:


> can't get rid of that wider neck though.


Can't get rid of it, or you don't want them to get rid of it?

The wider neck was made necessary by the wider "zero-fret" nut assembly which, according to Reverb, is being ditched.

The zero-fret nut was (re) introduced because Gibson arbitrarily lowered the fret size by 27%, requiring them to find a way to easily factory-ship guitars with action set top and bottom reasonably low to the new "zero" frets yet allow experienced players who wanted higher action to get it. Most players won't cut a nut lower, and you can't cut a nut higher. "Zero-fret adjustable nut" was born.

"But if we do this idea, the nut assembly has to be wider than our long-standard neck width."

"Pfffft, go ahead, just make the neck wider to accommodate it, tell our customers we're doing it to make the neck 'more comfortable' to play, they won't notice or care."

Have another drink, Henry. After the hard spanking Gibson received this year due to this and other changes, maybe they'll see that spending a few hundred thousand on market research asking customers what they like/don't like is cheaper than losing millions in sales.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

Not much of a Gibson fan anyway so it won't affect my buying decisions. I'm prolly in the minoriity here but I think Epiphone and PRS make better LPs than Gibson. PRS more so.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

BMW-KTM said:


> Not much of a Gibson fan anyway so it won't affect my buying decisions. I'm prolly in the minoriity here but I think Epiphone and PRS make better LPs than Gibson. PRS more so.



I think you're right.

(You _are _​in the minority on this one).


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## DavidP (Mar 7, 2006)

jbfairthorne said:


> i think they likely paid more attention to sales numbers than they did customer complaints. If they were listening to the customers they would have ditched all the changes right after they were announced, not waited until the next year.



+1, imho!!


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

boyscout said:


> Can't get rid of it, or you don't want them to get rid of it?
> 
> .


i mean if you have a 2015, you can undo all the changes except that one. while you can get a neck off of a les paul, it's not worth doing.


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Meh. Gibson has messed things up in the past as well. I'm a humongous Gibby fan and always will be. I just try to avoid looking at the crappier models they've done since they started up.

Keep in mind though, that this is coming from a guy that bought a "79 Les Paul Deluxe (used) at the age of 15 for $700 after working for a year washing dishes.

Take it for what it's worth. To me, it's worth allot.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I love Gibsons and their derivatives. I like the scale, set necks, mahogany and nitro. Nothing like the sound of a Les Paul through a vintage style Marshall. But my favourite for playing is the 335/339 style guitars, followed by an SG. My weak puny little girly man fret hand just has a problem getting around the heal of an LP. I just want to make Gibson that players want. I have no problem with experimentation with innovation. Just don't limit people to guitars with g-force tuners in most cases. I can see the use of G-Force tuners, they are a very good innovation. Just keep it as an option. Same with the 0 fret brass nut and wider neck. I am sure there will work well with some players' style. I know the labour for making and finishing production Gibsons is more than for production Fenders. They will always cost more. 

Just as long they can keep up QC (will can always be improved), keep their prices not quite insane and listen to the players. Nothing wrong with innovation, just don't force it on people. We shall hopefully, slowly, forget about the Firebird X.

Will I ever buy a Gibson new, or even used? No. Simple economics. I'll be living with what I have for sometime.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

BMW-KTM said:


> Not much of a Gibson fan anyway so it won't affect my buying decisions. I'm prolly in the minoriity here but I think Epiphone and PRS make better LPs than Gibson. PRS more so.


I have to agree with you on the PRS. Don't know about Epiphone.


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## Lord-Humongous (Jun 5, 2014)

The last few times I've stopped at Long & McQuade over my lunch break, there's been at least one or two people plugged in making noise. That's where the G Force tuners come in handy, just grab a Gibson with them, press a button, give a strum and you are ready to go. I find it very difficult to tune a guitar off the shelf in a shop when it's loud in there. Has it been confirmed that they are keeping the wide neck for 2016? I'm not crazy about that...


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## stringer (Jun 17, 2009)

A small part of me suspects that Gibson knew what they were doing all along. They announce a crazy hike in price and an almost communist way of providing guitar models? Then recant and say they are ONLY raising their prices by about 10 - 20 percent, and everybody breathes a sigh of relief. But I love a good conspiracy and have no love for the Weyland Yutani corps of the world.


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## 4Aaron GE (Jul 12, 2009)

vadsy said:


> Who knows, they might become a collectors items and go up in price. 'One year only where Gibson did this...'





zontar said:


> That may be the thing in 15-25 years.
> Or they'll be a niche guitar cult.


I considered that, but I keep coming back to a phrase that gets used with cars a lot. "Rarity doesn't equal value"


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

What puzzles me about Gibson making these great sweeping changes to their flagship lineup is why they don't offer these "features" as options and keep the core lineup available for the purists? Also, when making changes to these iconic designs why not address some of the pain points instead of dressing them up with a lot of soon to be obsolete electronic flash? For example, why not offer a neck through and/or carved heel on the LP as an option? They do it on the Axcess but you have to get a Floyd with those. I'd like the carve but not the Floyd. For crying out loud Agile offers this!
I'm a fan of Carvin guitars and the approach they have to their instruments. They have a stable of models, many based on tried and true designs but with usability improvements (like the carved heel and neck through designs) after that the customer can pretty much option out their instrument almost any way they want. Wood, colour, fretboard, frets (different sizes, regular or stainless), pickups (albeit proprietary), head stock shape etc...
Perhaps Gibson's mass production model doesn't allow for such flexibility but I can't see why they can't do quite well with their iconic models made the "traditional" way and then offer custom options on these models for the upsell.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

The 2015 models...


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## jcon (Apr 28, 2006)

I'd be all for Gibson offering custom options, especially at the price points some of their guitars are already at - rivalling PRS Private Stock.

BTW, they actually do make an Axcess without the Floyd - I have one  For some reason it gets little to no press or mention and they're relatively difficult to find. Worth it if you can get a hold of one though (preferably lightly used).

http://www.long-mcquade.com/25440/G...tric_Guitar_w_Stop_Bar_-_Translucent_Blue.htm




Hamstrung said:


> What puzzles me about Gibson making these great sweeping changes to their flagship lineup is why they don't offer these "features" as options and keep the core lineup available for the purists? Also, when making changes to these iconic designs why not address some of the pain points instead of dressing them up with a lot of soon to be obsolete electronic flash? For example, why not offer a neck through and/or carved heel on the LP as an option? They do it on the Axcess but you have to get a Floyd with those. I'd like the carve but not the Floyd. For crying out loud Agile offers this!
> I'm a fan of Carvin guitars and the approach they have to their instruments. They have a stable of models, many based on tried and true designs but with usability improvements (like the carved heel and neck through designs) after that the customer can pretty much option out their instrument almost any way they want. Wood, colour, fretboard, frets (different sizes, regular or stainless), pickups (albeit proprietary), head stock shape etc...
> Perhaps Gibson's mass production model doesn't allow for such flexibility but I can't see why they can't do quite well with their iconic models made the "traditional" way and then offer custom options on these models for the upsell.


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## Hamstrung (Sep 21, 2007)

jcon said:


> I'd be all for Gibson offering custom options, especially at the price points some of their guitars are already at - rivalling PRS Private Stock.
> 
> BTW, they actually do make an Axcess without the Floyd - I have one  For some reason it gets little to no press or mention and they're relatively difficult to find. Worth it if you can get a hold of one though (preferably lightly used).
> 
> http://www.long-mcquade.com/25440/G...tric_Guitar_w_Stop_Bar_-_Translucent_Blue.htm


Well, I'll be damned! (thanks for the link) That's the types of options they _should _be promoting! Mind you it's still way out of my price point.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

jcon said:


> I'd be all for Gibson offering custom options, especially at the price points some of their guitars are already at - rivalling PRS Private Stock.
> 
> BTW, they actually do make an Axcess without the Floyd - I have one  For some reason it gets little to no press or mention and they're relatively difficult to find. Worth it if you can get a hold of one though (preferably lightly used).
> 
> http://www.long-mcquade.com/25440/G...tric_Guitar_w_Stop_Bar_-_Translucent_Blue.htm


i don't understand why they don't offer the axcess' neck heel on all LPs. i highly doubt anyone would have complained about that improvement.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

cheezyridr said:


> i don't understand why they don't offer the axcess' neck heel on all LPs. i highly doubt anyone would have complained about that improvement.


Because they're too busy trying to replicate what they did 60 years ago.

in fairness, all the big guys could use some updating on the neck heels...fender, Prs, Gibson...all stick with inferior neck heels for most of their model lines. They rely on marketing and the fact that we all more or less have just gotten used to them.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Steadfastly said:


> I have to agree with you on the PRS. Don't know about Epiphone.


Chinese Epi, no.
Japan Epi, YES


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## Guest (Sep 4, 2015)

korean Epi, yes as well.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Its hard for me to think that Epi has Gibson beat (other than the odd anomalies ie random lemons and gems) on anything other than price. 
And I own several of both.


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## FreewayJam (Sep 4, 2012)

I would agree it was more about Gibson taking a pummeling in their sales that prompted this quick turn-around, more so than
them actually listening to all the complaints from the customers. ( from everything i have read / heard about Henry and his 
mega ego / bi-polar personality, i would guess the voices in his head are all that he hears )

I was just perusing some of the 2016 models, ( available now at MF, and others i'm sure ) but from what i am seeing, i don't know
how much of the 16's actually have a lower / better price.

For Instance: *2016 SG Standard is $1199.00 USD* - and it now comes with 490/498 'Buckers, and a GIG BAG ! No case ? Not sure how much of a deal that is ! 
( that would be about $1550 Cdn ! )
* 2016 Les Paul Studio is now priced at $1499.00 USD ! *( comes with 490/498 'Buckers as well ) Rest of the spec's look ok, but that would mean 
close to 2 Grand before taxes ! here in Canada for a Studio Les Paul ???? Don't see that moving off the shelves any better than the 15's.
*2016 Les Paul Traditional *looks to have good basic spec's, and is weight relieved for 2016. It is at $2299.00 USD which means it will probably be 
in the 3 grand neighbourhood Canadian ( before taxes ) Maybe this is right on point price wise for this, i am not sure.

Just a couple of random 'snapshots' from what i am seeing of the new 2016 models.
Perhaps i am way out of touch, but the above pricing examples ( except maybe the LP Trad ) don't seem like a reduction in any way.
I can't see those flying out of the stores with those price tags attached - or will the folks be so happy to have their "old spec's" back that
price will not be an object ? ( if so, then its a Gibson win, in marketing, imho )

I am interested to see / hear what the Gibson die hards and otherwise think about the above pricing.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Diablo said:


> Its hard for me to think that Epi has Gibson beat (other than the odd anomalies ie random lemons and gems) on anything other than price.
> And I own several of both.


What are the countries of origin of your Epi's?


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

The two MIJ Epis I had were every bit as good as any Gibson that I've tried.

I wonder if that was the grand scheme of things for Henry.

Add a bunch of unwanted specs AND jack up the prices.
The next year, lose all the add-ons, but leave the price jacked.
Win/win, for Henry.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

laristotle said:


> korean Epi, yes as well.


Some years ago I looked at my inventory and decided I had too much money tied up in redundant examples of similar guitars. A culling of the herd ensued. I got rid of a few Strats, a Tele, a bass, a few amplifiers, lots of pedals, two wireless that never or rarely got used, etc. When it came time to chop some LPs I chose to sell my Gibsons and kept one Korean Epi LP. It had been upgraded with better pups, pots and switch and was a better playing, better sounding guitar than my Gibson LPs were. It fell behind the Gibsons in one category, the thickness of the FMT which had been previously determined upon looking into the pup cavities when vacant. At the time of my culling I deemed it irrelevant for my purposes.


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## Guest (Sep 6, 2015)

I have two MIK Epi's. I gutted them both (mini pots, thin wire. 
cheap hardware). The build itself though, is great for the money.


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

laristotle said:


> I have two MIK Epi's. I gutted them both (mini pots, thin wire.
> cheap hardware). The build itself though, is great for the money.


... and now you have two guitars as good or better for a third of the money, even with the new parts factored into the cost.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

BMW-KTM said:


> ... and now you have two guitars as good or better for a third of the money, even with the new parts factored into the cost.


So to be clear, people who buy Gibson guitars are neither as intelligent as you are or as discerning about what makes a guitar great? Gibson owners are just wasting their money on guitars that are inferior to the parts guitars you cleverly cobble together into superior instruments for "a third of the money"?


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)




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## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

insert popcorn eating gif...


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## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

@ boyscout

I made no reference to the intelligence of anyone.
You did that by mentioning my intelligence as a comparison with everyone else's.
I said nothing of the kind.

You are welcome to your opinion on what constitutes a quality guitar and I am entitled to mine. That much is self evident.
What is also self evident is that you appear to have an intolerance for anyone having an opinion differing from your own.
Please respect my right to have my own opinion, which I clearly declared on previous pages was my opinion and also that I acknowledged I was prolly in the minority.
Your attempts to troll me into a pointless debate over nothing but opinions will fail.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

boyscout said:


> So to be clear, people who buy Gibson guitars are neither as intelligent as you are or as discerning about what makes a guitar great? Gibson owners are just wasting their money on guitars that are inferior to the parts guitars you cleverly cobble together into superior instruments for "a third of the money"?



Anyone ever see Stripes with Bill Murray?

"Lighten up Francis..."


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

"Anyone calls me Francis.....

I'll kill them."


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

I can't and won't dispute any claims that Gibson has issues. I've seen some strange things done in recent years.

But, whenever I'm looking for a really meaty sound and a neck I can really grab and for lack of a better term, manhandle, my Les Paul (2013 R7) is a really pleasing instrument.

The pickups have very different tones that work beautifully together. Even in the middle position, which I seldom use on most LPs is great. If I had to describe it I's use a word like open.

Anyway, no clip to back this all up but I just put it down and I thought I'd post while it was still fresh in my mind.

Oh, and man, does it play like butter.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

JBFairthorne said:


> Anyone ever see Stripes with Bill Murray?
> 
> "Lighten up Francis..."


[video=youtube;C6cxNR9ML8k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6cxNR9ML8k[/video]


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Our new big toe...Sgt. Hulka. Classic.


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## pattste (Dec 30, 2007)

sulphur said:


> I wonder if that was the grand scheme of things for Henry.
> 
> Add a bunch of unwanted specs AND jack up the prices.
> The next year, lose all the add-ons, but leave the price jacked.
> Win/win, for Henry.


I really doubt that it was a win-win. Sales of the 2015 models were dismal by all accounts. It would take quite the upsurge in sales to make up for it. It remains to be seen if the masses are willing to pay 2016 pricing for 2014-spec guitars. I think they're still priced higher than the market can stand in the current economy. Also, they've built too many in recent years. The market is overflowing.

I also doubt it was some kind of masterplan on Henry's part. I think that he really believed people would go for the ridiculous features, that they were an improvement. He's a man of impeccable taste, afterall.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

pattste said:


> . It remains to be seen if the masses are willing to pay 2016 pricing for 2014-spec guitars. I think they're still priced higher than the market can stand in the current economy. Also, they've built too many in recent years. The market is overflowing.


last year's 30% increase never had anything to do with the so called improvements. it's all about the branding. i think that's why the market being flooded with them won't effect the resale much. to a small degree, the branding allows them some latitude when it comes to over supply. THAT i think has been intentional from the beginning of henry's tenure, and a big part of the success they've had in turning things around from where they were when he took over. as much as i don't like some of his decisions, i find it impossible not to credit him for the things he did that worked.


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## Guest (Sep 7, 2015)

pattste said:


> View attachment 15478


Les's expression, to me,
'you're shitting me .. right!?'


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## vadsy (Dec 2, 2010)

What's wrong with Henry's face? Burst job gone wrong?


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

laristotle said:


> Les's expression, to me,
> 'you're shitting me .. right!?'


I thought maybe he was napping...


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Although I did Meh the 2015 changes, as a consumer, and a very long time fan of Les Paul's in particular, I'm really disappointed with Gibson. Particularily their pricing. As I was fortunate to FINALLY get in the new guitar market this year after slugging it out with my '79 LP for the last 30, I truly thought that another LP was in the works. Until I looked at the pricing.

Very disappointing indeed.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

so what did you get instead?


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Ordered in June, arrives November.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Dorian2 said:


> View attachment 15488
> 
> 
> Ordered in June, arrives November.


ive never seen a pickup config quite like that ie the mid pup so far back


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## Dorian2 (Jun 9, 2015)

Diablo said:


> ive never seen a pickup config quite like that ie the mid pup so far back



Morse does it specifically for the sound. You should see how low it is too. It's totally wired differently as well, but not as complicated as the other older versions were.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

vadsy said:


> What's wrong with Henry's face? Burst job gone wrong?


He sort of looks like Frankenstein...and what he did to his guitar does not look any better.


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## Guest (Sep 8, 2015)




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## SGJones (Sep 13, 2015)

JBFairthorne said:


> I think they likely paid more attention to sales numbers than they did customer complaints. If they were listening to the customers they would have ditched all the changes right after they were announced, not waited until the next year.


I recently had a chat with the guys at my local L&M about this. Increased prices and unpopular features have absolutely killed their sales.


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## dolphinstreet (Sep 11, 2006)

Very interesting! They are by doing so admitting they screwed up. 


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## DrumBob (Aug 17, 2014)

4Aaron GE said:


> Man, I feel bad for anyone who bought one new during the past year.


I don't. They made their decisions and now they're stuck with guitars people don't want. They can kiss resale value goodbye. 

According to what I was told, Gibson has something like 30,000 unsold 2015 guitars in their warehouses. Who knows what will happen with them.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)




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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

uh-uh....Gibson will find a way to make at least something off them.
A price cut solves most things.

People must really hate for fear henry J for no one to have spoken up about how bad these were going to be at the concept stage.


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## Scotty (Jan 30, 2013)

Diablo said:


> uh-uh....Gibson will find a way to make at least something off them.
> A price cut solves most things.
> 
> People must really hate for fear henry J for no one to have spoken up about how bad these were going to be at the concept stage.


trouble is that decent people will lose their jobs over this


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Scotty said:


> trouble is that decent people will lose their jobs over this


That's the way capitalism works, no one is immune to it. And yes, I've been in that unenviable boat before as well.

if it's any consolation ,from what I've read, Gibson doesn't sound like that great a place to work.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

there are tons of "testimonials" online from former employees telling how much they didn't like it there, and how weird their hiring process is.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

SGJones said:


> I recently had a chat with the guys at my local L&M about this. Increased prices and unpopular features have absolutely killed their sales.


In any market there is a price threshold. People have only so much money (or credit) after all. Perhaps Gibson has hit the threshold with the price increases and now they are having a hard time moving their product.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

Steadfastly said:


> In any market there is a price threshold. People have only so much money (or credit) after all. Perhaps Gibson has hit the threshold with the price increases and now they are having a hard time moving their product.


I think that it was due more to the changes than just the price hike.

I'd assume that if it were just the price hike, there would've been bitching, 
but they still would have sold the product, or more of it.

If they just made the changes without the price hike, I think that they would've still sat on the shelf.
It was the perfect storm of mismanagement.


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