# Kijiji deal gone bad - what do you do?



## Dr.StephanHeimer

Anyone had a Kijiji Deal go bad, bought something which didn't turn out as described or had a problem you weren't told about?

What did you do/ How did you resolve it?


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## blam

imho...all purchases on kijiji are buyer beware... ensure you test everything....i try my best to always meet at the sellers home. this way i know where he lives. and no, not so i can come back and curb stomp him. this way the seller is less likely to hide something that is wrong with the item being sold because you know where he lives and in the back of his head, you can come back and make his life a bit of a pain.

all you can really do is calmly ask for your money back if the deal was legitimately bad. if they refuse, all you might be able to do is small claims court.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

All i've done so far is indicate that I want to return it, it hasn't been a long time since I got it (within 2 days of pickup) and I let him know the next day. After an initial email response he's gone 100% silent, won't answer emails, txts or phone calls. I've been persistent but not overbearing and simply stated I wanted to discuss things. I'm guessing from the silence that he was trying to hide something. 

Do wanna do small claims but might end up that way.


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## blam

may I ask what it is you purchased and the problem with the item?


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## Guest

As a seller you have to appreciate his reluctance. Who knows what you did to it in the two days it was out of his sight. And can you imagine the "free rentals" people could get if you let then buy something and then return it 48 hours later?

Nope. Never ever. You try it at my place and once the cash changes hands it's deal done.

I'd say chalk it up to a life lesson and stop contacting the guy.

Edit: just realize that post is a little harsh. I'm sure you personally are a standup guy, but understand he doesn't know you from Adam. His reluctance to respond has to be understood.


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## GuitarsCanada

Tough call. Can see both sides of the issue. But leaning towards the no returns policy. I agree 100% with the try before you buy policy especially with kijiji. Depends on the item as well though.


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## torndownunit

iaresee said:


> As a seller you have to appreciate his reluctance. Who knows what you did to it in the two days it was out of his sight. And can you imagine the "free rentals" people could get if you let then buy something and then return it 48 hours later?
> 
> Nope. Never ever. You try it at my place and once the cash changes hands it's deal done.
> 
> I'd say chalk it up to a life lesson and stop contacting the guy.


Ya, it's Kijiji not a store. Buyer beware. I am surprised people are advising small claims court, because I can't imagine how you'd have a case buying the item off Kijiji. The seller can just say you must have damaged it in time you had it. And how are you going to prove him wrong?


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## ezcomes

they call it "tail light warranty"...for this purpose, i always meet somewhere neutral...i don't want you to know where i live and what is in my house, and vice versa...


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## jimihendrix

I sell a lot of items on kijiji...Most of my items are dead mint in the original packing...I'm currently selling a vintage SG junior with a pro headstock repair...I describe the guitar exactly...including a clear mention in the description about the said repair...and I also post pics from every angle...

I still get questions asking if the guitar has any "issues"...I diligently refer them to the item description/pics...if they try the guitar and wheel-and-deal for a lower price...and still decide to purchase the guitar...it will be a final sale...a done deal...no returns...I've given them every opportunity to freely decide to pass on the deal...

I also leave my ads up for several days after the sale to give the buyer a chance to thoroughly read and re-read the ad description...they can hit "print screen" to capture the ad and download the pics too...but I will not return any money...I sell gear to help pay the bills...not for "fun" or "something to do"...

I don't have to match prices with online music stores or the old "I seen one on ebay for way less" line or take trades

If they insisted on a return...I would suggest that they should simply post their own ad to re-sell the item...


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

Hey everyone, first off thanks for all the responses. I'm not gonna put up any details yet just cause everything is still up in the air. The item in question is a guitar and it has nothing to do with functionality or damage. 

I agree with the point of view that things can be damaged or altered after the fact, in any of my sales I always point out imperfections, or in the case of electronics price accordingly and give an account of when/how long etc the item was used or sell it as is and ensure the buyer understands as well.

In this case hear the issue is only something I noticed once I got it home and luckily there is no way I could have caused this particular issue in 2 days and have it in its current condition. I know that sounds a little vague (maybe more than a little), I will post some details once the smoke is clear. 

It's important to note that since I bought the guitar all I have done is keep it in the case and only opened it periodically to verify my assessment. It is in 100% the same condition as when I picked it up.

Regarding the sellers reluctance, I can understand a little trepidation at not wanting to deal with it, but you have to man up and pick up the phone or reply to an email, not just ignore problems until they go away. As I said before i've been courteous, I indicated in one email that I would like to return it to him and just wanted to talk to him about the situation.


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## torndownunit

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> Hey everyone, first off thanks for all the responses. I'm not gonna put up any details yet just cause everything is still up in the air. The item in question is a guitar and it has nothing to do with functionality or damage.
> 
> I agree with the point of view that things can be damaged or altered after the fact, in any of my sales I always point out imperfections, or in the case of electronics price accordingly and give an account of when/how long etc the item was used or sell it as is and ensure the buyer understands as well.
> 
> In this case hear the issue is only something I noticed once I got it home and luckily there is no way I could have caused this particular issue in 2 days and have it in its current condition. I know that sounds a little vague (maybe more than a little), I will post some details once the smoke is clear.
> 
> It's important to note that since I bought the guitar all I have done is keep it in the case and only opened it periodically to verify my assessment. It is in 100% the same condition as when I picked it up.
> 
> *Regarding the sellers reluctance, I can understand a little trepidation at not wanting to deal with it, but you have to man up and pick up the phone or reply to an email, not just ignore problems until they go away. As I said before i've been courteous, I indicated in one email that I would like to return it to him and just wanted to talk to him about the situation.*


He doesn't *have* to pick up the phone to call or email you though is the problem. As others have said, when buying on Kijiji or Craigslist it's your responsibility to be able to adequately test/identify an item before you agree to buy and it and money changes hands. Kijiji and Craigslist are not stores.

As with Jimi, I am very diligent with my item descriptions. But in the end it's still up the the buyer to check the item over and make their decision whether the description is 2 pages long, or 2 words long. There is no way I am returning any money after after a Kijiji transaction. And while I hate using this term, if I make a mistake buying something I have to 'suck it up'.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

Hi tom thanks for the response, when I said had to I did not mean obligated to, I was merely pointing out that the "hiding under a pile of coats until everything goes away" strategy really doesn't work, i'm not going just going to let it go that easily. In this case here I will say something serious was not disclosed about the guitar, I feel the seller knew about it and is trying to get away with something. As I said all i'm looking to do is open a dialogue at this point, I don't think its unreasonable in any way to want to discuss it.

I definitely understand some of the buyer beware mentality, and for the most part people I have dealt with on Kijiji have been great. I can understand being firm if someone was seeking to return something because of buyers remorse or second thoughts on purchase or some sort of outlandish story. Kijiji is not a store and there is no return policy, but even though the item was listed on kijiji and was a private sale does not give the seller license to deceive the buyer, which is my point here. 

BTW it is my opinion that there would be a more militant attitude towards pursuit of a resolution if this was a case of a fake les paul or strat (which it is not).


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## GuitarsCanada

As I have mentioned on here several times whenever the Kijiji/CL conversations pop up. We (meaning 99% of the people on GC) would all agree on the buying and selling methods and procedures that have been outlined here. ie disclosing in detail all issues with the item etc etc. But once you are outside of dealing with like minded people, its a different ballgame. The old saying "how could they do that?" is often mentioned. Well they can do it because they do not have the same moral standards as most of the people that deal here and on forums like this. Yes, the odd dishonest person creeps into these type communities but they are weeded out quickly and soon find themselves unable to offer anything for sale. Kijiji and CL and even eBay offer the traffic and 1000 times the buyers, but along with that comes the dishonest people that don't hold the same standards that we would here.

For that reason, I always meet people whenever I am buying from Kijiji etc and go over the item completely. Once I leave with it I am basically assuming I will never be talking to that person again. I have driven as far away as 5 hours to do this. I would never, ever buy anything off Kijiji/CL on a shipping basis, unless it was something that I could totally afford to lose the money on. Like something under $40.00

Based on your posts here I would say that your chances of a resolution in your favor are about 1% and all we can hope is that you can salvage something out of this deal. If the person was a like minded seller (like you and most of us) you would not have even created this thread.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

I think my initial intent with this thread was mis interpreted, I’m looking to hear what some people did or would do in this kind of situation.


GuitarsCanada said:


> As I have mentioned on here several times whenever the Kijiji/CL conversations pop up. We (meaning 99% of the people on GC) would all agree on the buying and selling methods and procedures that have been outlined here. ie disclosing in detail all issues with the item etc etc. But once you are outside of dealing with like minded people, its a different ballgame. The old saying "how could they do that?" is often mentioned. Well they can do it because they do not have the same moral standards as most of the people that deal here and on forums like this. Yes, the odd dishonest person creeps into these type communities but they are weeded out quickly and soon find themselves unable to offer anything for sale. Kijiji and CL and even eBay offer the traffic and 1000 times the buyers, but along with that comes the dishonest people that don't hold the same standards that we would here.


I am in no way questioning or even bringing up transactions on this forum, I have purchased from other members with great results and 100% agree that this is a very reasonable (and very interesting) group of people. Other members have unsolicitedly mentioned their own posting practices and I commend them on their honesty fairness, however I am not questioning their methods or practices. 


GuitarsCanada said:


> For that reason, I always meet people whenever I am buying from Kijiji etc and go over the item completely. Once I leave with it I am basically assuming I will never be talking to that person again. I have driven as far away as 5 hours to do this. I would never, ever buy anything off Kijiji/CL on a shipping basis, unless it was something that I could totally afford to lose the money on. Like something under $40.00


I agree (and have never disputed) that kijiji is very buyer beware, and would never dream of trying to return something because I rethought my purchase or wanted to use/rent it for a short period of time. I am always certain about something before I purchase it and never had over cash until I’m sure but I don’t think you or anyone else can be 100% spot in your assessments on every time when buying something. Mistakes happen on both sides of the coin (buyer and seller) and it’s how you deal with them that shows your true character. Deception is another matter entirely and I don’t think for one second that any of you would simply let it go that easily if you were deceived. I realize that I may be stuck with a bad deal but that does not mean I’m going to simply give up and wave away my hard earned money. 


GuitarsCanada said:


> Based on your posts here I would say that your chances of a resolution in your favor are about 1% and all we can hope is that you can salvage something out of this deal. If the person was a like minded seller (like you and most of us) you would not have even created this thread.


I don’t see how you can possibly make this sort of assessment as I haven’t provided any details about the issue (as I said earlier I want to touch base with the seller first), even if I had provided more details you would still only have my side and not the sellers. I’m sure that if it was an issue with a forum member, opening a dialogue would have been easy to do and any concerns could have been ironed out. However I cannot change the situation at this point (time machine is in the shop) and I’m looking for some advice and opinions about what to do.


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## jimihendrix

You do have another option...or two...

I have seen ads placed by upset customers warning others about their plight on kijiji...

One that comes to mind is a person warning others about a character advertising free removal of unwanted pianos...apparently...the "piano man" would show up...place the piano in the person's driveway...smash the piano to pieces to recover the valuable parts (brass reverb plates)...presumably to sell for scrap metal...then take off...leaving the owner with a huge mess and hefty cleanup bill...

The "victims" posted ads with the "con artist" e-mail address and name...along with a description of his truck to publicly expose his exploits...and hopefully...put him out of business...










Another option is to click on "view seller's other items" (presuming his ad is still live)...and use a different e-mail address to contact him about your "interest" in his other items...make sure you meet at his home...or send a decoy while you wait nearby...this will give you another opportunity to face him mano-a-mano without him expecting to run into you...sometimes you have to outfox the fox...


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## GuitarsCanada

I am in no way questioning your motives or anything else really. What I am saying is based on your posts ie you have emailed him repeatedly and phoned him and gotten no response from either that it is clear he most likely knew about whatever you are talking about and he is figuring the deal is done and that's it. I am only suggesting that with those systems you are going to run across people like that. Your initial question was what have people done in similar circumstances. I think that has been answered pretty well. You can keep after him and I do hope you get some resolution. Just appears to me that it is not going to happen


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## gtone

Personally, I've been lucky with several deals on Kijiji that have gone very favourably (several of which, it turns out, were with members of GC or TGP boards).

At this stage, you're not without recourse. WRT to jimihendrix' solutions, I've seen the first one used in cases similar to yours. As for the second, it might just help you get somewhere. If all else fails, there's always "frontier justice" (assuming you have the seller's address), but I probably wouldn't advocate that method of resolution in your case. Perhaps you believe in kharma...


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

jimihendrix said:


> You do have another option...or two...
> 
> I have seen ads placed by upset customers warning others about their plight on kijiji...
> 
> One that comes to mind is a person warning others about a character advertising free removal of unwanted pianos...apparently...the "piano man" would show up...place the piano in the person's driveway...smash the piano to pieces to recover the valuable parts (brass reverb plates)...presumably to sell for scrap metal...then take off...leaving the owner with a huge mess and hefty cleanup bill...
> 
> The "victims" posted ads with the "con artist" e-mail address and name...along with a description of his truck to publicly expose his exploits...and hopefully...put him out of business...
> 
> Another option is to click on "view seller's other items" (presuming his ad is still live)...and use a different e-mail address to contact him about your "interest" in his other items...make sure you meet at his home...or send a decoy while you wait nearby...this will give you another opportunity to face him mano-a-mano without him expecting to run into you...sometimes you have to outfox the fox...


Well I don't think its quite this severe, and i'm definitely not going to call him out publicly but I appreciate the input. I wanna keep things as reasonable as possible.


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## torndownunit

I am not a legal expert, but it sounds like a lot of these suggestions for 'tracking the guy down' could result in YOU running into issues, not the seller. Sorry to beat a dead horse, but Kijiji is not a store or eBay. And it doesn't have the 'community' aspects that a forum has for resolving issues. There aren't very many things a seller can do to violate policy on Kijiji because other than ads getting flagged and removed before a sale ever happens, there really isn't any Kijiji policy. So if you go harassing the guy with phone calls or stalking him, he could end up with legal recourse against you, while you haven't found any solution.

The reason I get a bit angry reading this thread is because I would be p.o.'d if I sold an item and a seller contacted me trying to return it. I represent my items accurately, but not everyone on Kijiji does. But the key issue is it's the buyers responsibility to have the knowledge to judge the item and know the difference no matter what the ad says. You should use Kijiji understanding that. I really don't care what the situation is because it's one of those cases where it 'opens the floodgates' if people are allowed to start tracking down sellers and trying to return items. If you want a warranty or a return policy, shop at a store.


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## keto

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> All i've done so far is indicate that I want to return it, it hasn't been a long time since I got it (within 2 days of pickup) and I let him know the next day. After an initial email response he's gone 100% silent, won't answer emails, txts or phone calls. I've been persistent but not overbearing and simply stated I wanted to discuss things. I'm guessing from the silence that he was trying to hide something.
> 
> Do wanna do small claims but might end up that way.


You want to return something you bought on kijiji and inspected in person? Crazy talk, seriously. That deal is done, take your lumps and move on to the next one.


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## greco

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> I’m looking for some advice and opinions about what to do.


Sorry to hear about your situation.

I would not even consider small claims court...for virtually anything...if that remains an option you are still giving any level of consideration. Firstly, I am not sure you have have a "legitimate" case from a legal perspective, but more importantly the following. We had a business and I looked into small claims (re: a bad debt of about $1,000.00) with the advice of a lawyer. Apparently, most lawyers will not even pursue small claims for their own practice debts. There are many reasons for not going this route. 

Cheers

Dave


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

torndownunit said:


> I am not a legal expert, but it sounds like a lot of these suggestions for 'tracking the guy down' could result in YOU running into issues, not the seller. Sorry to beat a dead horse, but Kijiji is not a store or eBay. And it doesn't have the 'community' aspects that a forum has for resolving issues. There aren't very many things a seller can do to violate policy on Kijiji because other than ads getting flagged and removed before a sale ever happens, there really isn't any Kijiji policy. So if you go harassing the guy with phone calls or stalking him, he could end up with legal recourse against you, while you haven't found any solution.
> 
> The reason I get a bit angry reading this thread is because I would be p.o.'d if I sold an item and a seller contacted me trying to return it. I represent my items accurately, but not everyone on Kijiji does. But the key issue is it's the buyers responsibility to have the knowledge to judge the item and know the difference no matter what the ad says. You should use Kijiji understanding that. I really don't care what the situation is because it's one of those cases where it 'opens the floodgates' if people are allowed to start tracking down sellers and trying to return items. If you want a warranty or a return policy, shop at a store.


Well I'm not gonna go all hobbo with a shotgun on this guy or anything like that. Kijiji is just where he posted the ad, this has nothing to do with their policies much like a newspaper classified. As far as criminal harassment goes this is a far cry from anything like that, I have been very even toned (never angry) in all of my communication and have given reasonable time to respond before contacting again, more importantly he has not indicated to me in any way that he would like me to stop contacting him. 

I'm not talking about some sort of personal return policy or warranty or anything like that, i'm talking about a very important fact that was not disclosed prior to sale, one that would have caused me to decline the purchase. Its not like I just arbitrarily changed my mind, I am fully convinced I was deceived and am not willing to just settle for it.

As far as people trying to return items sold like this there are no imminent floodgates, its not as if thousands will suddenly start contacting sellers en masse and demand a return If I succeed. It's Kijiji people can contact the seller after the sale if they want and at that point its simply down to your character and how you deal with things. 

When I sell something on Kijiji I always let the buyer know whats up with the item and would be man enough to respond to any further calls or emails. This doesn't mean I would automatically take something back but I wouldn't just ignore the situation.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

keto said:


> You want to return something you bought on kijiji and inspected in person? Crazy talk, seriously. That deal is done, take your lumps and move on to the next one.


So are you saying that if you were deceived you would just let it slide?


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## Guest

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> I'm not talking about some sort of personal return policy or warranty or anything like that, i'm talking about a very important fact that was not disclosed prior to sale, one that would have caused me to decline the purchase. Its not like I just arbitrarily changed my mind, I am fully convinced I was deceived and am not willing to just settle for it.


Then call the police. If you think you were duped, pursue it through the proper channels. If you have a leg to stand on, they'll tell you pretty quickly.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

greco said:


> Sorry to hear about your situation.
> 
> I would not even consider small claims court...for virtually anything...if that remains an option you are still giving any level of consideration. Firstly, I am not sure you have have a "legitimate" case from a legal perspective, but more importantly the following. We had a business and I looked into small claims (re: a bad debt of about $1,000.00) with the advice of a lawyer. Apparently, most lawyers will not even pursue small claims for their own practice debts. There are many reasons for not going this route.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


Hey Dave 

Appreciate the response although you don't provide any actual reasons for not going this route, could you perhaps elaborate.


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## keto

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> So are you saying that if you were deceived you would just let it slide?


He's not responding, to expect otherwise is naive. Which leaves you basically civil action (small claims), as the cops won't care about it...if you think otherwise, try getting a public prosecutor interested in your case and good luck with that. Even if you are successful in small claims, which involves getting the 'culprit' properly served with documents forcing him to appear among other cumbersome paperwork requirements AND convincing the judge very specifically of your financial damages, which probably are difficult to nail down to his or her satisfaction (besides the 'buyer beware' thing, they might very well throw it out when noted that you inspected/handled it before paying), there are no guarantees of successfully collecting on your judgement - you'd have to find his bank accounts and hope there's enough in there, then go through tons of hoops to get the bank to pay, or find assets that you can pay a bailiff to seize and then liquidate for fair market value, or maybe put an attachment on real estate but that only gets satisfied (paid) if the property is ever sold and you will always be behind any prior registered mortgages and any tax liens. 

Beyond that, I suppose as previously suggested you could do a kijiji smear campaign, but you've already dismissed that (as I would, as not being worth the effort).

You haven't yet said what the issue is (broken headstock or neck hidden by paint would be my guess) nor how badly hurt you might be financially so I guess I don't have enough information to answer your question but, yes, my inclination would be to walk away and get on with my life. There would be a breaking point, dollar wise, when I would find it worthwhile to do the small claims thing, yes. I couldn't define a number offhand, and I imagine it would be different for each of us.


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## ajcoholic

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> Hey Dave
> 
> Appreciate the response although you don't provide any actual reasons for not going this route, could you perhaps elaborate.



I know its not the exact situation/ same thing, but i was in a smilar situation and can say you dont need a lawyer to file a small claims. Two women owed me around three hundred dollars and refused to pay, or answer my letters or calls, etc. I filed a small claim, deliver the papers and in a few weeks after they failed to refute the charge of fraud, i got my money.

The most pita thing is it is up to you to serve the paperwork to the person. If you dont know where they are, you are out of luck.

Ajc


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## keto

ajcoholic said:


> I know its not the exact situation/ same thing, but i was in a smilar situation and can say you dont need a lawyer to file a small claims. Two women owed me around three hundred dollars and refused to pay, or answer my letters or calls, etc. I filed a small claim, deliver the papers and in a few weeks after they failed to refute the charge of fraud, i got my money.
> 
> The most pita thing is it is up to you to serve the paperwork to the person. If you dont know where they are, you are out of luck.
> 
> Ajc


AJ, how did you get the money? It's not like the judge handed you a provincial cheque or something, didn't you have to do the legwork to find the dough yourself?


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## greco

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> Hey Dave Appreciate the response although you don't provide any actual reasons for not going this route, could you perhaps elaborate.


*It is my understanding*, that if a (small claims) judgement is made in your favour, the collection of the "debt" (or exchange, in your situation) remains up to you to pursue. In essence, you are almost back at the starting point (but you at least have a legal judgement to support your attempts to collect/"exchange"). There is a fair amount of paperwork involved and you will have to make a court appearance. All this takes time and likely some form of expense on your part (e.g., possibly hiring a lawyer and/or time away from work). If this is a large amount of money, it might be worth it. 

*Please understand that you need to clarify this with someone very familiar with the small claims process* as my experiences are based on looking into this a few years ago. There are websites that outline the process and what is expected of the claimant and have the required legal forms available. I would strongly advise looking at them. 

Also, I expect that you did not get any form of receipt when you made the payment and this could be, in itself, a very significant issue in trying to make a claim. 

Good Luck. Personally, I'd chalk it up to a bad experience and move on....no matter how bitter that pill is to swallow.

Cheers

Dave


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## ajcoholic

They paid up. I guess if the person doesnt have the cash you wont get it. Otherwise, i dont know what the procedure is to get the money... Once they are ordered to pay it.

Again, i wouldnt even th ink of proceeding unless its a clear. Cut case of fraud and worth enough cash to make it worth wthe aggrevation.

Ajc


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## ajcoholic

greco said:


> Good Luck. Personally, I chalk it up to a bad experience and move on....no matter how bitter that pill is to swallow.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave



More than likely what i would think as well..


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## blam

judging by the details you've given thus far, you are SOL.



Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> The item in question is a guitar and it has nothing to do with functionality or damage.


if it was misrepresented thats up to you to confirm before purchase.


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## torndownunit

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> Well I'm not gonna go all hobbo with a shotgun on this guy or anything like that. Kijiji is just where he posted the ad, this has nothing to do with their policies much like a newspaper classified. As far as criminal harassment goes this is a far cry from anything like that, I have been very even toned (never angry) in all of my communication and have given reasonable time to respond before contacting again, more importantly he has not indicated to me in any way that he would like me to stop contacting him.
> 
> *I'm not talking about some sort of personal return policy or warranty or anything like that, i'm talking about a very important fact that was not disclosed prior to sale, one that would have caused me to decline the purchase. Its not like I just arbitrarily changed my mind, I am fully convinced I was deceived and am not willing to just settle for it.*
> 
> As far as people trying to return items sold like this there are no imminent floodgates, its not as if thousands will suddenly start contacting sellers en masse and demand a return If I succeed. It's Kijiji people can contact the seller after the sale if they want and at that point its simply down to your character and how you deal with things.
> 
> When I sell something on Kijiji I always let the buyer know whats up with the item and would be man enough to respond to any further calls or emails. This doesn't mean I would automatically take something back but I wouldn't just ignore the situation.


Again, it's your job to know enough about the item before buying it. It's pretty simple. I'm sorry you don't see it that way, but again, the seller has no policy he has to follow selling through Kijiji. The responsibility is yours as the buyer to know what you are buying. If you have any doubt, don't enter a transaction. If you think he did something illegal and you can somehow prove that, then that is the only real avenue you have to pursue as others have mentioned. But best of luck trying to prove it with a Kijiji sale.


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## GuitarsCanada

It may appear that you are being ganged up on, I dont think that is anyones intention. It is simply the way that world works.


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## davetcan

So for instance if he said he was selling a 1993 Gibson LP Standard that looked great but turned out to be a 2011 Chinese knock-off then what? I'd personally consider that fraud but I do understand the whole Caveat-Emptor bit also.


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## GuitarsCanada

davetcan said:


> So for instance if he said he was selling a 1993 Gibson LP Standard that looked great but turned out to be a 2011 Chinese knock-off then what? I'd personally consider that fraud but I do understand the whole Caveat-Emptor bit also.


Exactly, and it is fraud. But that is rampant on those systems. Thats why you need to enter into it with that in mind. Trust nobody, check the item out personally or bring someone with you that can. Once you hand over that cash getting it back may be impossible


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## Destropiate

After reading all of this I would be really interested to know whats wrong with the guitar. I bought a guitar off Kijiji once that had a warped neck....I dont think the seller knew about it cause the action was so high and I didnt notice until I went to get the action lowered and a tech told me it had warped. I just ate it....changed the neck and told myself to be more careful when buying in the future..

I dont think anyone can give you any useful advice if we dont know what the issue with the guitar is. Could be that the seller is unaware of the issue as well, or could be that he tried to rip you off. If he isnt a member of this forum I dont see the harm in posting the issue here while you have the boards attention.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

GuitarsCanada said:


> It may appear that you are being ganged up on, I dont think that is anyones intention. It is simply the way that world works.


Oh I am definitely being ganged up on (at least it feels that way), and intent or not its happening. This thread seems to have become a trainwreck of accusations and assumptions. People seem more interested in assuming they know the situation and continuing that path despite information to the contrary and then getting angry when people don't do what they say. I definitely didn't start this to be subtly accused of being stupid or ignorant.


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## keto

I don't know what the missing information is, about which yes I and others have made assumptions. I think that's human nature, you've been mysterious about it so we all feel like playing Sherlock Holmes. Is it going to make a difference in our thinking? I find it unlikely. I haven't seen anyone here in the thread angry or accusatory though. (???)


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## GuitarsCanada

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> Oh I am definitely being ganged up on (at least it feels that way), and intent or not its happening. This thread seems to have become a trainwreck of accusations and assumptions. People seem more interested in assuming they know the situation and continuing that path despite information to the contrary and then getting angry when people don't do what they say. I definitely didn't start this to be subtly accused of being stupid or ignorant.


I cant speak for everyone, but I certainly am not accusing you or suggesting that you are dumb in any way, shape or form. I feel for you actually. You spent good money it appears and got something that you feel was not represented properly. I think that has happened to us all at one point or another in our lives. It's not a good feeling. But I stand behind my advice with regards to Kijiji and sites like it. There are no rules and relatively no accountability. You have to go into it knowing that and even then you can still get burned. I know that when I list something it is what I say it is. But we cannot assume that every person is of the same moral fabric as we hold ourselves to. I simply could not take someones money and lie to them and then sleep at night. I am not saying I am better than anyone else thats just the way I was raised


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## Guest

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> Oh I am definitely being ganged up on (at least it feels that way), and intent or not its happening. This thread seems to have become a trainwreck of accusations and assumptions. People seem more interested in assuming they know the situation and continuing that path despite information to the contrary and then getting angry when people don't do what they say. I definitely didn't start this to be subtly accused of being stupid or ignorant.


I don't think anyone is accusing you of anything -- we just don't agree with you. Don't ask for opinions if you don't want to chance getting something that is contrary to what you'd like to hear. 

FWIW, I have much empathy for you. I've bought two items, sight unseen, via TGP and gotten poor deals on them. Both were in far worse shape than the sellers let on and I wouldn't have bought them or paid as much for them if I'd known that. What'd I'd do? Nothing. Took my lumps, learned my lesson, and no longer shop so freely.


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## Destropiate

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> People seem more interested in assuming they know the situation and continuing that path despite information to the contrary and then getting angry when people don't do what they say.


Its hard not to make assumptions when people are given no information as to what went wrong with the guitar you bought. If you think you bought a fake guitar, thats fraudt and the person selling it should be pointed out to the authorities IF they knew they were selling a fake. If your noticing a finish flaw or something and want your money back than thats a whole different thing.....point is nobody knows, cause for some reason you wont say what you're unhappy with.
Its kind of pointless to ask people to recount "kijiji deal gone bad stories" when most likely very few of them will relate to your specific problem at all. People here are trying to give you advice, some of the advice is "suck it up"...I think if you let people in on what the specific issue is you might get some more helpful replies.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

GuitarsCanada said:


> I cant speak for everyone, but I certainly am not accusing you or suggesting that you are dumb in any way, shape or form. I feel for you actually. You spent good money it appears and got something that you feel was not represented properly. I think that has happened to us all at one point or another in our lives. It's not a good feeling. But I stand behind my advice with regards to Kijiji and sites like it. There are no rules and relatively no accountability. You have to go into it knowing that and even then you can still get burned. I know that when I list something it is what I say it is. But we cannot assume that every person of the same fabric. You just cannot do that or you are leaving yourself open for dissapointment.


Thanks, I hope I didn't come off too angry. I realize the risks in buying items privately and I hope that I have not been burned on this one (i'm working hard at it anyway), I honestly hope that this whole thread is not being perceived as whining or anything similar. My issues with a some of the responses I have gotten is that a lot of people are providing advice and repeating the same information based on points I did not ask about and am not concerned about, and also are doing so in a manner that says "this is how it is, shut up"


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

iaresee said:


> I don't think anyone is accusing you of anything -- we just don't agree with you. Don't ask for opinions if you don't want to chance getting something that is contrary to what you'd like to hear.
> 
> FWIW, I have much empathy for you. I've bought two items, sight unseen, via TGP and gotten poor deals on them. Both were in far worse shape than the sellers let on and I wouldn't have bought them or paid as much for them if I'd known that. What'd I'd do? Nothing. Took my lumps, learned my lesson, and no longer shop so freely.


I appreciate the empathy, I try as hard as I can to take the good with the bad, lumps and all and am willing to admit when i'm wrong, I understand that I may have to suck it up, I refuse to have someone tell me to suck it up as if I have no other choice.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

Destropiate said:


> Its hard not to make assumptions when people are given no information as to what went wrong with the guitar you bought. If you think you bought a fake guitar, thats fraudt and the person selling it should be pointed out to the authorities IF they knew they were selling a fake. If your noticing a finish flaw or something and want your money back than thats a whole different thing.....point is nobody knows, cause for some reason you wont say what you're unhappy with.
> Its kind of pointless to ask people to recount "kijiji deal gone bad stories" when most likely very few of them will relate to your specific problem at all. People here are trying to give you advice, some of the advice is "suck it up"...I think if you let people in on what the specific issue is you might get some more helpful replies.


Thats a point well taken, I wanted to keep this general at the moment and i'm sure I could have worded some things a little differently. I accept that "suck it up" might be the final answer but I won't accept that without trying first, I find. I'm gonna give this a bit of a rest for right now, we'll consider this the first stirred up hornets nest of the year and I'll see what pans out this week.


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## GuitarsCanada

iaresee said:


> I don't think anyone is accusing you of anything -- we just don't agree with you. Don't ask for opinions if you don't want to chance getting something that is contrary to what you'd like to hear.
> 
> FWIW, I have much empathy for you. I've bought two items, sight unseen, via TGP and gotten poor deals on them. Both were in far worse shape than the sellers let on and I wouldn't have bought them or paid as much for them if I'd known that. What'd I'd do? Nothing. Took my lumps, learned my lesson, and no longer shop so freely.


That just reminded me of a deal I did on eBay one time for a Rockman half rack. You have to first realize that all these Rockman prices are based largely on cosmetics since they are all solid state devices. I bid good money on this one, description had it as "very good cosmetic condition" and the pictures looked good. Got the unit and right on the front of the thing the freak had engraved his name. The pictures he took simply did not show anything in that detail. Theres an example of checking the thing out. If I had gone to pick that up I would have offered him $40 for it


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## torndownunit

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> Oh I am definitely being ganged up on (at least it feels that way), and intent or not its happening. This thread seems to have become a trainwreck of accusations and assumptions. People seem more interested in assuming they know the situation and continuing that path despite information to the contrary and then getting angry when people don't do what they say. I definitely didn't start this to be subtly accused of being stupid or ignorant.


I personally am not making any accusations, assumptions, or implying anything about *you*. I am simply stating how Kijiji works. There is no policy a seller has to follow on Kijiji and that's the harsh reality of something like Kijiji. Therefore there is no recourse unless you can prove something in court or to the police. The things is, the specifics of the situation really don't matter that much. If it's a customer satisfaction issue on any level, you have no recourse except to go after the guy, which you do at your own risk. If you feel it's a legal issue, then pursue it. Good luck either way.

You asked people's opinion or advice on what they would do or have done in this situation and they are telling you. Everyone of us who has dealt on Kijiji has had a transaction at some point that didn't live up to our expectations. When we say 'suck it up', it's because that is exactly what we did or would do. When dealing on a system like Kijiji or Craigslist, it happens to the best of us. In my case to be safe, I have to avoid a ton of items because I just don't know enough about them. I could easily get ripped off 10 different ways.


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## guitarman2

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> Thanks, I hope I didn't come off too angry. I realize the risks in buying items privately and I hope that I have not been burned on this one (i'm working hard at it anyway), I honestly hope that this whole thread is not being perceived as whining or anything similar. My issues with a some of the responses I have gotten is that a lot of people are providing advice and repeating the same information based on points I did not ask about and am not concerned about, and also are doing so in a manner that says "this is how it is, shut up"



Pretty stupid thread. You ask for opinions, give no information, then get mad when people assume. If you want accurate opinions give details.


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## blam

I don't think anyone is ganging up on you.

there is a chance we've all been in the same situation or known someone close to us that has been ripped off on kijiji. I'm more than confident the members of this forum feel for you and hope you get everything sorted out but we can only advise you on what to do in the future if you're not going to disclose any pertinent details about the transaction at hand. there is a chance you might very well be in the wrong in this transaction. we cannot pick and choose sides without knowing the full details.


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## guitarman2

nkjanssen said:


> Yah, there's a pretty wide range of appropriate responses here depending on the details. As someone else said, if you were sold a forgery the appropriate response is different than if you just noticed a finish flaw after the fact. How can anyone give appropriate advice without knowing the facts?


I'm thinking the only legitimate beef would be if it was a forgery. If you are buying anything of value that costs a lot of money, you need to do your homework. If its something that isn't a lot of money then its probably not worth the agravation to hunt the guy down. 
I once sold a 5 year old tv to a guy, that may have had a problem. About a month before I sold it I witnessed it go black and have funny colored lines on it. It only lasted for a minute and never came back so I thought it was a one time deal. The TV was watched daily. I then sold it and about 2 days later the guy comes back and said that it went black with the funny colored lines and stayed that way. I never disclosed anything about this issue before I sold it cause I didn't think anything of it and had no reason to believe it would be a problem, only having seen it once. But because I had seen it I gave the guy his money back with out hesitation. If I had not seen this happen I probably wouldn't have given his money back.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

Everything has been resolved.
So here's the deal: Saw a guitar on Kijiji, emailed and arranged pickup. Showed up cash in hand, try it out everything plays well, (needs new strings but thats normal), hand over the cash and put it in the case (please note the case was set aside and closed when I arrived) and off I go. Get home open up the case and notice a very odd odor reminiscent of cat urine coming from inside the case, it wasn't super strong but definitely noticeable, the guitar was fine and it is definitely the case. I checked several times to make sure I wasn’t just imagining things. 
I didn't notice this when I picked it up because a) the case was closed when I got there b) someone in the house hold obviously smoked and there was a dog, which definitely masks a lot of smells c) I didn’t think to stick my nose in the case. In my home environment the smell stood out a lot more. 
So I send the seller and email, he denied anything and then cut off all contact, I sent a few messages simply indicating that I would like to return it but that I wanted to discuss it with him but got no response via phone, text or email. So yesterday I go back to the house, the seller was not home but his mother was and obviously on the defensive, she knew about my concern and that her son was avoiding replying. I calmly explained what I wanted and that I had not been aggressive or demanding in my correspondence. I confirmed that the guitar was in the exact condition as it was when I picked it up and offered to let her look at it. She told me that I should just sell the guitar without the case and recoup my money to which I replied that I bought the guitar to play and that I did buy it to take a loss and that I would consider small claims court if need be. She said that would be fine and that the seller’s dad would call me that night.
Later that night the seller texted me and immediately indicated he would agree to a return, said he’d been busy at work etc. I dropped it off this afternoon (very different demeanor from all by the way) and it’s all well and good. I ’m not sure if the seller knew about the issue or not, and was fearing the worst when I got no response, I’m just glad the seller was reasonable in the end.
May seem like a silly thing for some but that’s not a smell I want around, it wasn’t super strong and may have been something else (maybe something happened years ago) but it definitely was not disclosed.
I just want to add as clarification that at no time did I think there was any sort of policy from Kijiji that would cover this sort of an issue, I have tried to say that before but some people still felt the need to add that in like I wasn’t understanding. That is not what I was asking and I’ll thank you to stop assuming otherwise. 
II would expect under most circumstances that someone would at least respond and discuss the issue, as I said I was calm and completely non threatening. 
Now don’t get me wrong I totally see the other side of the coin here to. Who knows what could happen once something leaves your possession even for a few hours. I don’t know how I would respond to this sort of request if I was the seller, but if I could be satisfied that the item was coming back in the same condition I would entertain the idea (depending on the reasoning).


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## greco

Glad to hear that all is resolved. 

My bet is that the seller (and family) heard the words "consider small claims court if need be" and decided that the risk/hassle just wasn't worth it. Often, as we all know, anything that has any form of connection to a "legal action/approach" can make many "rethink" their stance in a given situation.

Just out of curiosity, did you look into the Small Claims procedures/process? (given what I indicated in one of my posts)

Thanks for informing us of the result.

Cheers

Dave


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

greco said:


> Glad to hear that all is resolved.
> 
> My bet is that the seller (and family) heard the words "consider small claims court if need be" and decided that the risk/hassle just wasn't worth it. Often, as we all know, anything that has any form of connection to a "legal action/approach" can make many "rethink" their stance in a given situation.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, did you look into the Small Claims procedures/process? (given what I indicated in one of my posts)
> 
> Thanks for informing us of the result.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


I'm pretty familiar with the process as i've been the plaintiff before (completely different work related issue). Had things ended up different here I would have researched similar cases first and considered all the options, maybe checked with free legal aid before proceeding. It's nice to know people can still be decent


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## NB_Terry

Maybe you could have returned the case, and asked them to refund enough money to buy a used guitar case.


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## eric_b

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> Get home open up the case and notice a very odd odor reminiscent of cat urine coming from inside the case, it wasn't super strong but definitely noticeable,


Sounds like the odor of old hide glue, perhaps? I've opened a few old cases and recoiled from the smell... it dissipates eventually, if left open.


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## ajcoholic

This sort of reminds of the time (about 15 years ago) I was trying to sell my old SS Traynor Block100 amp. Some local yokal said he'd buy it if he could pay me 1/2 now, 1/2 in a few weeks to which I agreed. He took the amp - but after several weeks no more cash. WHen I asked for the rest, he said he wasnt going to be able to come up with it, and he wanted to return the amp.

Well, I am a non smoker, and I dont do drugs. When I got the amp back, it reaked of pot SO bad, I couldnt bring myself to even think of bringing it into my house. I left it at my shop for a while, trying to clean it (I ended up throwing the foam in front of the speakers away). Man, I was PO'd!

Oh well, I am glad your story turned out OK.

AJC


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## torndownunit

You are lucky you were dealing with a sucker ('reasonable' in your words). I would have told you to go ahead and try to take me to small claims court over and issue like that because I know you wouldn't stand a chance in hell. And given you 10 seconds to get off my property before I called the police on you for trespassing.

Sorry, I just don't like the precedent this sets for Kijiji transactions, and if you think that makes me a jerk so be it. If it was me, I would have checked every item I was buying including the case. Just like any buyer should do. If the case smelled, negotiate a price not including the case. Or better yet, don't buy the item at all if it's that big of an issue. Don't pull this stuff after you clear a transaction and take the item home. The bottom line is the error was on your part no matter what you say about smells 'masking' other smells. You knew the house smelled, you bought an item out of it.

I am sure I am not the only person who deals on Kijiji who finds this thread a little upsetting.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

torndownunit said:


> You are lucky you were dealing with a sucker ('reasonable' in your words). I would have told you to go ahead and try to take me to small claims court over and issue like that because I know you wouldn't stand a chance in hell. And given you 10 seconds to get off my property before I called the police on you for trespassing.
> 
> Sorry, I just don't like the precedent this sets for Kijiji transactions, and if you think that makes me a jerk so be it. If it was me, I would have checked every item I was buying including the case. Just like any buyer should do. If the case smelled, negotiate a price not including the case. Or better yet, don't buy the item at all if it's that big of an issue. Don't pull this stuff after you clear a transaction and take the item home. The bottom line is the error was on your part no matter what you say about smells 'masking' other smells. You knew the house smelled, you bought an item out of it.
> 
> I am sure I am not the only person who deals on Kijiji who finds this thread a little upsetting.


Well I just have to point out that this doesn't set any sort of precedent, this isn't a legal ruling after all and its not like people nationwide who buy on kijiji will suddenly use my situation as some sort of leverage or reasoning and start returning things in droves. 

This is just 2 people who were able to come to an agreement about something. I never tried to say that the onus wasn't on me to check the item out, I was simply trying to illustrate the situation as it occurred and why I missed this important detail. Had I noticed I wouldn't have bought it (as i've said before).

I don't know why you call the guy a sucker. It's not like I decided I wanted to return the guitar and got a cat to pee on the case. As for not 'pulling' this stuff I am fully justified in trying to pursue a resolution if I feel i've been mislead or ripped off. Unlike what to you seem to think just because something is listed on Kijiji doesn't mean the seller can get away with murder and doesn't take away all rights from the buyer. 

I'm sure you would have checked everything in every excruciating detail because you seem to be perfect, in fact i'm sure you're "spidey sense" would have alerted you to any problems a block away.


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## keeperofthegood

*Errors*

*The following errors occurred with your submission*



Your submission could not be processed because the token has expired.

Please reload the window.
dang lost my posting so let me try this again:

http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=A1ARTA0001788



> Sales Law
> 
> The function of sales law is primarily to determine the rights and duties of the seller and buyer where the contract itself does not contain a complete set of terms. The seller's obligations are generally the more onerous. The seller must not only deliver goods of the right quantity and description and at the agreed time; he must also supply goods that are of "merchantable quality" and reasonably fit for their intended purpose. The oft-quoted maxim caveat emptor ("let the buyer beware") has long ceased to represent the Canadian law. If the seller fails to live up to his obligations he may have to compensate the buyer for the losses suffered by them, and these could be very substantial. However, well-drafted contracts almost invariably limit the seller's liability for defective goods. The buyer's primary obligations under the typical contract of sale are to accept the goods and to pay for them as agreed.
> 
> The federal Bills of Exchange Act deals with the following types of payment instrument: bills of exchange, cheques (ie, bills of exchange drawn on a bank or recognized near-bank) and promissory notes. An important function of the Act is to regulate the assignability (ie, negotiability) of rights obtained under one of these instruments and to determine when the transferee of an instrument can obtain better rights to payment than its original holder had. The transferee is then said to be a "holder in due course." Similar principles of negotiability apply to "documents of title," ie, recognized types of documents (such as bills of lading and warehouse receipts) that indicate that the holder of them is entitled to the delivery of goods by the bailee who issued the document in the first place.


The act is: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/B-4/index.html


Sellers and buyers at any level. from yard sale up to corporations are already covered in act for their rights and responsibilities.


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## smorgdonkey

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> This is just 2 people who were able to come to an agreement about something. I never tried to say that the onus wasn't on me to check the item out, I was simply trying to illustrate the situation as it occurred and why I missed this important detail. Had I noticed I wouldn't have bought it (as i've said before).
> 
> I don't know why you call the guy a sucker. It's not like I decided I wanted to return the guitar and got a cat to pee on the case. As for not 'pulling' this stuff I am fully justified in trying to pursue a resolution if I feel i've been mislead or ripped off. Unlike what to you seem to think just because something is listed on Kijiji doesn't mean the seller can get away with murder and doesn't take away all rights from the buyer.


I completely agree. Maybe 'torndownunit' has had many dealings with unreasonable people(?). Who knows?

I think that you took a very gentlemanly and reasonable course of action, one which would occur more frequently if we were as civilized as we should be(?).


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## blam

I'm glad the OP got everything sorted out and was able to come to a civil agreement with the seller, but I personally feel this return is unjustified.


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## jimihendrix

Well then..."_The seller must not only deliver goods of the right quantity and description and at the agreed time; he must also supply goods that are of "merchantable quality" and reasonably fit for their intended purpose._"...

In this case...the guitar case DID function as it was supposed to...there is nothing PHYSICALLY wrong with it...

Can you sue somebody if the used car you buy doesn't have that "new car smell"...or if you rent an apartment and the whole complex smells of curry...for example...???...Preposterous...

They sell cleaning/disinfectant/air freshening products...Lysol...Febreze...they really work...try them...

I once worked with a guy who ate peanut butter sandwiches every day at lunch for years...I finally asked him why...he told me that he lost his sense of smell some years ago and as a result lost all sense of taste for the endless variety of foods available to him...it was a dreary existence for him...eating served no enjoyable purpose for him...just sustenance...

Perhaps the seller wasn't aware of any "cat pee smell"...or "got used to it"...

In any case...the NEXT TIME you buy a guitar...CHECK THE CASE...!!!...It's up to YOU to point out any perceived and/or obvious flaws...ASK if there are any ISSUES or HIDDEN REPAIRS...use these as a "bargaining chip" to strike a better deal...you never really know if the seller is the ORIGINAL owner or the UMPTEENTH owner...use your GUT INSTINCTS and WALK AWAY from any deal that sends up RED FLAGS...


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## keeperofthegood

I dunno, just know there are laws and people cannot simply sell things and feel they are magically immune. There simply are laws, its up to reasonable people to attempt a reasonable solution first, and failing that, ask for a lawyer to arbitrate on their behalf, and failing that to present both sides to his or her worship. My point is far more that the playing field of selling online is not a no-holds-bared-bend-over place of "buyer beware", you have legal solutions that are in law and have been for decades. Going to court is not as much "he said she said" as it is a matter of interpreting those laws. Smells may have a legally proscribed treatment in the courts already, but I am done looking up laws for now. I already know court interpretations of the laws is a lot more work than reading the act and a properly educated lawyer would be needed to be asked how it is the courts interpret the act in that regard.


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## blam

jimi: i agree with you 100%


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## greco

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> I'm pretty familiar with the process as i've been the plaintiff before (completely different work related issue).


Just out of interest, since you are familiar with the small claims process and have been a plaintiff, was the information I provided about Small Claims Court accurate? somewhat accurate? totally incorrect? 

I have never "been through" the Small Claims process and would be interested in knowing from your experience(s)

Thanks for your response.

Sorry to hijack the thread's current direction.....just want to know for the future

Cheers

Dave


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## keeperofthegood

nkjanssen said:


> The _Bills of Exchange Act_ isn't relevant.
> 
> The _Sale of Goods Act_ is...
> 
> http://www.search.e-laws.gov.on.ca/...248-bf889c29e7f7/2/doc/?search=browseStatutes


 thank you. Too much legal and not enough coffee today. Still comes down to the reality that there is laws and there are protections and processes. Purchasing or selling is not a no-mans land.


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## Powdered Toast Man

Well, it all worked out in the end so that's good.

I would not be surprised if it was cat pee in the case. Every time I've had an open guitar case around a cat, they cannot resist it. When I'd have my guitar over at my then girlfriend's I'd turn my back for a second and the cat would be sleeping in my case.

In fairness to the OP, he did say that the seller's house stank - pretty difficult to evaluate something like a strong odor in the case.

This reminds me of a bad buy I had off Kijiji. The item was a molded Fender guitar case. When I got there, the case was in beat up, but serviceable condition, so I bought it for $30. When I got back to my car, I noticed there was a structural crack in the case - it was on the bottom near the hinges. I'd failed to notice it. I COULD have maybe gone back to the seller right away and tried to get my money back, but this guy was also real big and real scary looking, so I decided not to.

I got home and took a Magic Eraser to the case. Cleaned off all the grime and scuffs - also vacuumed out the inside and made it look presentable. I posted it on Kijiji that morning and about 3 hours later I'd sold it to someone else for $60. EXCEPT, I fully disclosed the damage to my buyer and he took it anyway. But, not bad to take a sour deal and turn it into a $30 profit.


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## torndownunit

keeperofthegood said:


> *I dunno, just know there are laws and people cannot simply sell things and feel they are magically immune. * There simply are laws, its up to reasonable people to attempt a reasonable solution first, and failing that, ask for a lawyer to arbitrate on their behalf, and failing that to present both sides to his or her worship. My point is far more that the playing field of selling online is not a no-holds-bared-bend-over place of "buyer beware", you have legal solutions that are in law and have been for decades. Going to court is not as much "he said she said" as it is a matter of interpreting those laws. Smells may have a legally proscribed treatment in the courts already, but I am done looking up laws for now. I already know court interpretations of the laws is a lot more work than reading the act and a properly educated lawyer would be needed to be asked how it is the courts interpret the act in that regard.


Then issue #2 I have with all of this. The OP is assuming the seller intentionally sold an item he knew had issues. That might not even be the case, and even he admits that. And even if it was the case, how do you prove it?


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## torndownunit

smorgdonkey said:


> I completely agree. Maybe 'torndownunit' has had many dealings with unreasonable people(?). Who knows?
> 
> I think that you took a very gentlemanly and reasonable course of action, one which would occur more frequently if we were as civilized as we should be(?).


My gripe is that this was not a warranted return in my opinion. If someone can return a guitar *AND* a case sold through a private sale for an issue with the *case* like the OP mentioned, then you could try to return it for pretty much anything. And this was sold on a classifieds site were there isn't even a return policy or any other type of seller policy! Are you telling me you would go along with someone trying to return a guitar and case they bought off you before they weren't happy with how the case smelled? After they finalized the transaction and left your property? That does not fall under manners or being a nice guy... that's being taken advantage of. If the seller did want to be 'nice' the most they should have done even by 'nice' standards is offer a refund for the case if it was returned to them. Asking for the guitar refund as well was just ridiculous.

And to clarify, are people in this thread saying that legally, the OP has a right to do that from the information he posted? I can't follow all the legal speak, and am approaching it from a common sense perspective. But from the details of the return, I can't possible see how the buyer has an legal grounds. Not in THIS situation. From what I see, the seller didn't violate anything in the info that keeperofthegood posted. 

Congrats for having the balls to pursue this. I can tell you if someone tried to pull something like this on me though, the result would not be the same. And you should be very careful about trying something like this in the future, because it could easily escalate to something violent when you trespass on someone's property to resolve a dispute where you may not even be legally right. I am a level headed guy, and even I would have to be held back if you showed up on my property with those demands threatening legal action in a situation where there is no legal action to take. My girlfriend would be calling the cops on you, while keeping me locked in a room.


----------



## GuitarsCanada

Judge Judy would have thrown it out of court and gave you a coupon for a can of Lysol


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## bagpipe

nkjanssen said:


> In this case, I don't think the seller had any legal obligation to refund. It seems he got coerced into it by threat of legal action by the OP.


My feelings exactly. I'd have listened to him, and been polite, but I'd have sent him packing. Once you buy it, its yours!


----------



## blam

i gave the OP the benefit of the doubt when he initially posted this thread, thinking it was something pretty major....such as the guitar being a fake or a collectors piece with replaced hardware or something that was not disclosed/lied about....

this is why if you're asking for advice you need to post details.


----------



## Dr.StephanHeimer

jimihendrix said:


> Well then..."_The seller must not only deliver goods of the right quantity and description and at the agreed time; he must also supply goods that are of "merchantable quality" and reasonably fit for their intended purpose._"...
> In this case...the guitar case DID function as it was supposed to...there is nothing PHYSICALLY wrong with it...
> Can you sue somebody if the used car you buy doesn't have that "new car smell"...or if you rent an apartment and the whole complex smells of curry...for example...???...Preposterous...


That would seem to indicate that you consider the scent of cat urine to be acceptable on any piece of merchandise whether new or used (considering the part you quoted doesn’t make any distinction), it also doesn’t make specifically MENTION (or define for that matter) ‘physical’ defects therefore I don’t know how you are defining the word physical (or why you are typing certain words in all capital letters) 
No, you can’t sue someone if a used car doesn’t have a new car smell however I’m sure you could successfully pursue a lawsuit if you unknowingly bought something previously covered in urine, which is something of a health concern don’t you think or, for that matter if the odor was hidden in order to disguise it in order to influence your decision to buy (aka deceiving you).


jimihendrix said:


> They sell cleaning/disinfectant/air freshening products...Lysol...Febreze...they really work...try them...


I didn’t buy a guitar in order to test cleaning products.


jimihendrix said:


> I once worked with a guy who ate peanut butter sandwiches every day at lunch for years...I finally asked him why...he told me that he lost his sense of smell some years ago and as a result lost all sense of taste for the endless variety of foods available to him...it was a dreary existence for him...eating served no enjoyable purpose for him...just sustenance...


What does this have to do with anything.


jimihendrix said:


> Perhaps the seller wasn't aware of any "cat pee smell"...or "got used to it"...
> In any case...the NEXT TIME you buy a guitar...CHECK THE CASE...!!!...It's up to YOU to point out any perceived and/or obvious flaws...ASK if there are any ISSUES or HIDDEN REPAIRS...use these as a "bargaining chip" to strike a better deal...you never really know if the seller is the ORIGINAL owner or the UMPTEENTH owner...use your GUT INSTINCTS and WALK AWAY from any deal that sends up RED FLAGS...


I do not know for sure if the seller was aware of the smell or not, but considering these 2 factors:
1)	The sellers (and his families) behavior after the sale
2)	The fact that the ad went right back up, unchanged within hours of returning the guitar
I believe he did know and was trying to pull a fast one. 
I am fully aware that it is primarily my responsibility to check out anything I am buying (esp. off kijiji or a similar sight) before handing over the cash. As I also indicated I am not perfect and this unfortunately got by my inspection.
I don’t think for one second that if any of you or anyone else was in the same situation, where you believe you were deceived, that you would just give up without trying.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

nkjanssen said:


> I suspect that if you took the guy to small claims court, you probably would have lost. At best, the court might have awarded you the cost of getting the case disinfected. They wouldn't have undone the deal.


I think you've seen a little too much Judge Judy, I'm not saying it would have been a slam dunk for me by any means but trial there is a meeting with both parties and a judge where most issues are actually settled, if both parties agree to a resolution (such as reversal of the sale) then the matter is settled. The judge doesn't just make some arbitrary judgement coupled with some sarcasm and call it a day.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

Powdered Toast Man said:


> Well, it all worked out in the end so that's good.
> 
> In fairness to the OP, he did say that the seller's house stank - pretty difficult to evaluate something like a strong odor in the case.


I'm not perfect by any means, and this is exactly what I was trying to say.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

torndownunit said:


> Then issue #2 I have with all of this. The OP is assuming the seller intentionally sold an item he knew had issues. That might not even be the case, and even he admits that. And even if it was the case, how do you prove it?


Exactly. Although assume is a strong word, it was definitely my suspicion based on his behavior. In any event my choices were to either A) do nothing or B) try and talk to him I chose B because I didn't intended to buy something smelling of cat urine.


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## keeperofthegood

torndownunit said:


> Then issue #2 I have with all of this. The OP is assuming the seller intentionally sold an item he knew had issues. That might not even be the case, and even he admits that. And even if it was the case, how do you prove it?


There in lies the rub eh. However, a claim of ignorance also does not always go far. "Really officer, I had no idea that was illegal" sure doesn't and I suspect in cases where sellers misrepresent their wares as well. As to "smells" well, there was that recent voodoo thread on cig smoke here. In any case, my point is that buying and selling are actions that have already in law legal expectations and remedies. What can or cannot be proven is part of the process of that remedy for sure. The nature of the issue. The timing. Etc etc etc, I am doing taco's for dinner and I think I need to pick up a bottle of diet cola to wash them down with.


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## Guest

I dont think it was the threat of a law suit at all. I think they probably figured "this guy is going to drive us crazy" and figured give him his money back and sell it to someone else. It worked, so I guess there is something to the tactic.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

torndownunit said:


> My gripe is that this was not a warranted return in my opinion. If someone can return a guitar *AND* a case sold through a private sale for an issue with the *case* like the OP mentioned, then you could try to return it for pretty much anything. And this was sold on a classifieds site were there isn't even a return policy or any other type of seller policy! Are you telling me you would go along with someone trying to return a guitar and case they bought off you before they weren't happy with how the case smelled? After they finalized the transaction and left your property? That does not fall under manners or being a nice guy... that's being taken advantage of. If the seller did want to be 'nice' the most they should have done even by 'nice' standards is offer a refund for the case if it was returned to them. Asking for the guitar refund as well was just ridiculous.


First of all it is not your place to ‘warrant’ any returns that you have absolutely no involvement in. This was one person agreeing to something with another person; that’s it that’s all. As I’ve said time and time again the site doesn’t matter, I know there is not policy, I wasn’t expecting one, I didn’t think there was one and I never mentioned one. 
If this is something you wouldn’t agree to that’s fine, you don’t have to agree to anything you don’t want to but that doesn’t mean anyone else is bound to the same rules. This also does not mean that others can try to return things bought through kijiji based on my experience.
I don’t see how this is being taken advantage of, whether he was aware of it or not it was an issue with what I bought that was not disclosed. The seller and I both agreed to a resolution (which doesn’t affect anyone else). 


torndownunit said:


> And to clarify, are people in this thread saying that legally, the OP has a right to do that from the information he posted? I can't follow all the legal speak, and am approaching it from a common sense perspective. But from the details of the return, I can't possible see how the buyer has an legal grounds. Not in THIS situation. From what I see, the seller didn't violate anything in the info that keeperofthegood posted.


Legally I completely have the right to contact the seller and make a request or file a motion in small claims court. Whether or not I succeed in either case is beyond my control (and thankfully yours to).


torndownunit said:


> Congrats for having the balls to pursue this. I can tell you if someone tried to pull something like this on me though, the result would not be the same. And you should be very careful about trying something like this in the future, because it could easily escalate to something violent when you trespass on someone's property to resolve a dispute where you may not even be legally right. I am a level headed guy, and even I would have to be held back if you showed up on my property with those demands threatening legal action in a situation where there is no legal action to take. My girlfriend would be calling the cops on you, while keeping me locked in a room.


First off I didn’t make any demands or ‘threats’, so for the last time stop putting words in my mouth. I was perfectly calm and civil and if any violence would have occurred, I wouldn’t have started it. And also, just to mention; the seller did invite me over and provide his address in the first place. Second of all it is not your place to decide whether there is legal action to take or not. Third you say you would be completely level headed while locked in the bathroom (sounds contradictory to me).


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

nkjanssen said:


> In this case, I don't think the seller had any legal obligation to refund. It seems he got coerced into it by threat of legal action by the OP.


Definitely no legal obligation but no coercion here. You could also say his conscience got the better of him. Given the fact that you (or I for that matter) don't know for sure (only the seller does) any conclusions are nothing more than biased by your own opinions and not rooted in facts.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

keeperofthegood said:


> There in lies the rub eh. However, a claim of ignorance also does not always go far. "Really officer, I had no idea that was illegal" sure doesn't and I suspect in cases where sellers misrepresent their wares as well. As to "smells" well, there was that recent voodoo thread on cig smoke here. In any case, my point is that buying and selling are actions that have already in law legal expectations and remedies. What can or cannot be proven is part of the process of that remedy for sure. The nature of the issue. The timing. Etc etc etc, I am doing taco's for dinner and I think I need to pick up a bottle of diet cola to wash them down with.


Smells are very subjective, I can't say 100% that it was cat piss but I can say this: it was close enough that I didn't want it.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

Mogwai said:


> I dont think it was the threat of a law suit at all. I think they probably figured "this guy is going to drive us crazy" and figured give him his money back and sell it to someone else. It worked, so I guess there is something to the tactic.


Completely opinion-based but a valid comment, there are some people out there who will play the legal card on a moments notice. I'm not one of those people btw, although I do have a very profound sense of justice and don't let things go easily. Its times like this I wish the internet had a smell function, i'm sure that would eliminate the discussion about this.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

nkjanssen said:


> Uhhh...no.
> 
> 
> 
> You're talking about a pre-trial conference or judicial mediation, not a trial. At a trial, the judge hears evidence, applies the law and renders a decision.
> 
> And there's no way a stinky case would be sufficient breach to ground rescission. You would have been entitled, at most, to damages sufficient to remedy the stink. And that's only if the judge found as a matter of fact that it was represented to you that the case didn't stink and the seller took active steps to conceal the stink.
> 
> Good luck with that.


You're right it is a pre trial conference. However you cannot assume or predict what a judge would recommend based on the statements of both parties, this is strictly a mediation between the parties and if they both agree (regardless of laws or legal precedent) then the matter is closed. And P.S. I don't need the luck I got my money back the seller got the guitar back in the same shape he left it in and all is well and good.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

nkjanssen said:


> Obviously you reached agreement without involving a judge, so yah... The fact that you reached agreement is pretty good evidence that you would have reached agreement.
> 
> If you had gone to trial, though, you would almost definitely have lost. Even just taking the facts as you've laid them out without hearing from the other side, you haven't made a case for breach of contract. Or, in any event, certainly not a sufficient breach to allow you to back out of the deal.
> 
> Just sayin'.


Are you an Ontario Judge? 
Were you there?
Ultimately Is it your decision?

Didn't think so.

Just sayin'


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## GuitarsCanada

Certainly an interesting discussion. A lot of varying opinions on how to handle it from both a sellers and buyers perspective


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

nkjanssen said:


> Ontario judges aren't the only ones who understand contract law.


Your right. However Ontario judges are the only ones who have the authority to precede over it, unlike yourself. Also I never mentioned contract law specifically.



nkjanssen said:


> Didn't have to be. You set out the facts pretty well.


Not exactly an unbiased opinion now is it? Listen to one side and presume guilt. Guess I won't be trusting your opinion.



nkjanssen said:


> It's my opinion. Just like it's your opinion that you would have won. I understand the law better than you do, though.


I never said I would have won, I just felt like I had a legitimate complaint. Also never claimed to understand the law better than you do. Although after this little tirade though I doubt you.... just a little.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

nkjanssen said:


> So what law exactly would you be relying on to cancel your purchase if not contract law?


Didn't need to research it this far, and since its resolved i'm not exactly going to take the time to do so now. Not saying your wrong but given your attitude and demeanor, I would definitely seek other opinions. 



nkjanssen said:


> Think about what you just wrote... The "one side" I'm relying on is _you_. Assuming everything you've said is true, I still don't see how you've made out a case for rescission. It's actually very common for a judge to dismiss a case without hearing from the defendant if the plaintiff doesn't make out his case. It's called "summary dismissal" or "non-suit".


You heard one side and made a judgement, if you consider that fair you may need to look up the definition of the word. I don't see how you can say with such certainty that I would have lost after only hearing one side of the argument. Also a case can't be dismissed pre-trial. Also I don't need to make my case to you.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

nkjanssen said:


> Again, this makes no sense. Are you saying that the other guy would have made your argument for you?


No i'm just saying that someone in your position is in absolutely no position to make any sort of unbiased decision. And that no one in any position to make any sort of decision would do so after hearing only one side of the story. 



nkjanssen said:


> Of course it can. Only a small percentage of filed claims ever make it to trial. Some are discontinued, some are dismissed on the basis that the pleadings have disclosed no case. Regardless, I was actually speaking of the case being dismissed after the plaintiff entered his evidence and before the defendant entered his. That's not pre-trial. That's mid-trial.


It's true that few cases make it to court, but only because the system is there to try to achieve a resolution before trial. I would think that only the most ludicrous of cases could possible warrant an extremely premature dismissal, and as much as this is a he said she said situation, I am confident in my abilities to make a compelling argument, your armchair opinion notwithstanding and I would not enter into such a situation without being sufficiently prepared.


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## Guest

nkjanssen said:


> You're clearly not understanding this, which makes this a fairly pointless discussion.


You've got to admit, in that regard, he's been 100% consistent for this _entire_ thread.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

nkjanssen said:


> Nonsense. Courts do it all the time when a plaintiff doesn't make out his case. You stated your case. It's a poor one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yah, but if what "he" said leads me to the conclusion that "he" is in the wrong. Why would what "she" said even matter?
> 
> You're clearly not understanding this, which makes this a fairly pointless discussion.
> 
> Over and out.


Actually if any court did this the "verdict" would be reversed so fast it would make your already overloaded head spin. No judge worth their salt would make a judgement based on one side of an argument no matter what the situation. The law is all about equal representation, not some jackass's opinion.


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## jimihendrix

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> That would seem to indicate that you consider the scent of cat urine to be acceptable on any piece of merchandise whether new or used (considering the part you quoted doesn’t make any distinction), it also doesn’t make specifically MENTION (or define for that matter) ‘physical’ defects therefore I don’t know how you are defining the word physical (or why you are typing certain words in all capital letters)
> No, you can’t sue someone if a used car doesn’t have a new car smell however I’m sure you could successfully pursue a lawsuit if you unknowingly bought something previously covered in urine, which is something of a health concern don’t you think or, for that matter if the odor was hidden in order to disguise it in order to influence your decision to buy (aka deceiving you).
> 
> I didn’t buy a guitar in order to test cleaning products.
> 
> What does this have to do with anything.
> 
> I do not know for sure if the seller was aware of the smell or not, but considering these 2 factors:
> 1)	The sellers (and his families) behavior after the sale
> 2)	The fact that the ad went right back up, unchanged within hours of returning the guitar
> I believe he did know and was trying to pull a fast one.
> I am fully aware that it is primarily my responsibility to check out anything I am buying (esp. off kijiji or a similar sight) before handing over the cash. As I also indicated I am not perfect and this unfortunately got by my inspection.
> I don’t think for one second that if any of you or anyone else was in the same situation, where you believe you were deceived, that you would just give up without trying.


-How do you glean that I, or anyone else here, deem "the scent of cat urine to be acceptable on any piece of merchandise whether new or used"...???...You're putting words in people's mouths...

-Referring to the previously quoted seller's law..._"The seller must not only deliver goods of the right quantity and description and at the agreed time; he must also supply goods that are of "merchantable quality" and reasonably fit for their intended purpose."_...The merchandise that you bought was _"reasonably fit for their intended purpose."_...in other words...the guitar case was fully intact...no broken handles or latches...working hinges...no torn linings etc etc...again...the case showed no sign of physical or structural or cosmetic damage and for all intents and purposes seemed to be...and I re-iterate..._"reasonably fit for their intended purpose."_...

-I'm sure you "didn’t buy a guitar in order to test cleaning products"...but it is good practice to clean and disinfect used items...As mentioned in other posts on this site...the guitar neck and strings are just coated with epithelial cells...dried tainted blood...snot...or any number of biological samples left behind by the previous owners/players...The case itself may harbor spiders or fleas or mold or other organisms...and yes...even cat piss...

-My point about mentioning my unfortunate co-worker's lack of sense of smell was to point out to you that not everybody has the ability (gift...???) to detect the faint cat piss smell and that the previous owner may have been oblivious to the aroma...

-I tend to use CAPITAL letters to _stress important points_...as they stand out more than _italics_...


----------



## Dr.StephanHeimer

jimihendrix said:


> How do you glean that I, or anyone else here, deem "the scent of cat urine to be acceptable on any piece of merchandise whether new or used"...???...You're putting words in people's mouths...
> 
> -Referring to the previously quoted seller's law..._"The seller must not only deliver goods of the right quantity and description and at the agreed time; he must also supply goods that are of "merchantable quality" and reasonably fit for their intended purpose."_...The merchandise that you bought was _"reasonably fit for their intended purpose."_...in other words...the guitar case was fully intact...no broken handles or latches...working hinges...no torn linings etc etc...again...the case showed no sign of physical or structural or cosmetic damage and for all intents and purposes seemed to be...and I re-iterate..._"reasonably fit for their intended purpose."_...


If you consider something that has previously been covered in cat piss to be of “merchantable” quality and reasonably fit for its intended purpose, then this says to me that you find cat piss acceptable. Unless the item is a litter box I do not find it acceptable. Furthermore the description of the goods was also not accurate or “right” as it did not disclose any damage due to cat urine or unusual odors of any kind, which I consider significant. Also if you read carefully I wrote: “That would seem to indicate that you consider the scent of cat urine to be acceptable”, I never implied that you said that, I merely stated that it was my impression based on your previous statement; the only person who’s mouth I’m putting words into is my own. 


jimihendrix said:


> -I'm sure you "didn’t buy a guitar in order to test cleaning products"...but it is good practice to clean and disinfect used items...As mentioned in other posts on this site...the guitar neck and strings are just coated with epithelial cells...dried tainted blood...snot...or any number of biological samples left behind by the previous owners/players...The case itself may harbor spiders or fleas or mold or other organisms...and yes...even cat piss...


Always a good idea to clean used gear, I was simply unwilling to invest money in expensive cleaners that may not work or may further ruin the case. If the seller wants to do so he can go to the time and expense and hopefully end up with a much more presentable product.


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## torndownunit

You started this thread asking opinions/options, and every person in the thread (once you posted what the actual problem was) told you your are in the wrong in their opinion. If you don't want people's opinions or input, and plan to argue with everyone who replies, don't post a thread like this. Plain and simple solution. 

The hilarious part is you accuse people of putting words in your mouth when you are doing it to everyone in the thread. To say anyone said that a cat urine smell is acceptable is ludicrous. You are choosing to look right past the ONLY point, which is that you agreed to a transaction when the item was in that condition. Whether it's acceptable or not is irrelevant at that point. The majority of your replies just divert from the main issues.

And how can you say you didn't make demands or weren't threatening? You went back to a seller's location after a completed transaction, trying to use small claims court as leverage to return an item. You honestly think that's not making demands or being threatening? Just because you bring up small claims court in a calm way, it doesn't make it less of a threat. And to deny you used coercion them is even more ridiculous. You harassed them until they talked to you, then used empty legal threats to get your way. And before you say it wasn't harassment, if you are trying to force contact after a completed Kijiji sale, it is harassment.

Go on thinking that it's everyone else in this thread that has the problem if that's what makes you happy. You can post this thread on any other forum you can find, and you are going to get the exact same replies. But again, everyone else is clearly just being jerks. It couldn't have anything to do with you.

My last word on the subject. As nkjanssen pointed out, this thread is futile at this point.


----------



## Dr.StephanHeimer

torndownunit said:


> This is ridiculous. It must be nice to go through life so ignorant. You started this thread asking opinions/options, and every person in the thread (once you posted what the actual problem was) told you your are in the wrong in their opinion. If you don't want people's opinion's or plan to argue with everyone, don't post a thread like this. Plain and simple solution.


Sir, I don’t plan and am certainly not trying to argue everyone. However I am also not going to sit idly by while people insult me or imply that I said or did things I did not do. If you an opinion thats fine but don’t expect me to blindly accept it as the unalterable law of the universe. 


torndownunit said:


> The hilarious part is you accuse people of putting words in your mouth when you are doing it to everyone in the thread. To say anyone said that a cat urine smell is acceptable is ludicrous. You are choosing to look right past the ONLY point, which is that you agreed to a transaction when the item was in that condition. Whether it's acceptable or not is irrelevant at that point. The majority of your replies just divert from the main issues.


I never said anyone said that, it was my impression based on what someone wrote. You sir are the one missing the point(s), I have tried to make it clear that I believe the seller knew about the damage and tried to hide/avoid it, the damage was not disclosed and therefore the item was not as described and I did not agree to an item in this condition. Although the onus is on me to inspect the guitar before purchase this doesn’t give the seller free reign to deceive me. The fact that you keep missing this (and other points) and continue to imply that the seller has some justification for not disclosing damage and trying to rip me off or implying that I’m wrong to even attempt any sort of a resolution is ignorant.



torndownunit said:


> And how can you say you didn't make demands or weren't threatening? You went back to a seller's location after a completed transaction, trying to use small claims court as leverage to return an item. You honestly think that's not making demands or being threatening? Just because you bring up small claims court in a calm way, it doesn't make it less of a threat.


How can you possibly say I made demands or was threatening. You most certainly were not present on any occasion, you didn’t hear what I or the seller said to each other and you are in no position to claim that anything about the encounter was in any way threatening or demanding. Despite what you seem to think going to someone’s house is not illegal (certainly not to one where I have a previous written invitation and no indication to the contrary) and is certainly not justification for violence as you seem to think (based on previous post), also bringing up small claims court or any sort of legal action is not necessarily a threat. To make any such accusations is pure 100% assumption on your part. Although assumption seems to be the basis for your arguments. 



torndownunit said:


> Go on thinking that it's everyone else in this thread that has the problem if that's what makes you happy. You can post this thread on any other forum you can find, and you are going to get the exact same replies. But again, everyone else is clearly just being jerks. It couldn't have anything to do with you.
> My last word on the subject. As nkjanssen pointed out, this thread is futile at this point.


I never said anyone on this thread has a problem and I certainly didn’t call them jerks. I apologize that I simply do not bow down to your infinite wisdom regarding the rules of kijiji and private sale and I’m sorry if you can’t take being debated on what you say. But if your position is that I have no right to even try when I feel I’ve been wronged and then baselessly accuse me of threatening someone, do not expect me to stay quiet.


----------



## keto

Just wow. I'm sorry I ever replied. I wouldn't bother asking for help or opinions around here any more, doc.


----------



## Guest

You keep refering to the word damage. There was no damage to anything as far as I can tell from the posts. According to you the case smelled like cat piss. Someone else may have said it smelled like roses. I don't think the guy held anything back from you (intentionally). It has never been proven one way or the other that the case was pissed in. You are saying that it "smelled" like that. Did they even own a cat?


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## jimihendrix

I think he's "bi-winning"...


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

keto said:


> Just wow. I'm sorry I ever replied. I wouldn't bother asking for help or opinions around here any more, doc.


All I tried to do was present the situation as I saw it: I firmly believe I was deceived regarding the condition of the guitar. I tried to clarify anything along the way as best I could and posted as unbiased an account as possible of how I was able to resolve the issue. 

I've been more that willing to accept my failure to identify the problem in the first place and was fully prepared to deal with the very real possibility that I would be stuck with no recourse. Some people seemed to insist I was wrong for even contemplating the idea of trying to reverse the deal and seemed to take offense when I debated the merit's of my argument.

I've had no problems listening to other peoples opinions and even the most critical of them made some good points. I'm more than willing to take the good with the bad, but if other people aren't up to that or are going to get into a huff over having their opinion (and lets face it this has mainly been opinion) challenged then words should be chosen more carefully or not said at all. 

I didn't start this thread to attack anyone and I sincerely apologize to any and all if I came off that way. I did honestly want some advice about how to handle a situation with a private sale where I felt I was deceived. Don't really know if I can say it more plainly than that.


----------



## blam

I for one, would like to see this for sale ad...... is it still posted?


----------



## Guest

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> Actually if any court did this the "verdict" would be reversed so fast it would make your already overloaded head spin. No judge worth their salt would make a judgement based on one side of an argument no matter what the situation. The law is all about equal representation, not some jackass's opinion.


I am very much enjoying watching you tell a _lawyer_ what the law is all about.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

iaresee said:


> I am very much enjoying watching you tell a _lawyer_ what the law is all about.


Is he actually a lawyer?


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## jimihendrix

Are you a _real_ doctor or _just_ a paramedic...???...

I'm a power engineer...do we need to post our credentials to offer opinions on this forum...???...

We all have different backgrounds...but a common love/passion for guitars...


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

jimihendrix said:


> Are you a _real_ doctor or _just_ a paramedic...???...
> 
> I'm a power engineer...do we need to post our credentials to offer opinions on this forum...???...
> 
> We all have different backgrounds...but a common love/passion for guitars...


The Dr. part is a nickname because I fix computers. I am a certified paramedic. Please note I didn't put dr, md, or phd into my credentials. 

My previous question was a genuine one, cause if he is a lawyer I feel a severe case of foot in mouth coming up. (on my part obviously)


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## jimihendrix

The bottom line is that we are all trying to help you...

Somehow this thread turned into a "pissing contest" -excuse the pun- about who knows more about legal procedures and consumer laws etc...

Having settled your dilemma has rendered all the "cat fighting" -again...excuse the pun- quite moot...

Your thread is important to raise the question "what should I do...???" in case this experience happens in the future to another member...should I suck it up/fight back/stay calm/lose my temper/seek justice/grant forgiveness...all legitimate questions...

Some answers are common sense...others are kinda way out there...just take what's right for you and leave the rest...

We all bring something different to the table...not all of it is edible...


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## Guest

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> Is he actually a lawyer?


Mmmhmm. Yup.


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

jimihendrix said:


> The bottom line is that we are all trying to help you...
> 
> Somehow this thread turned into a "pissing contest" -excuse the pun- about who knows more about legal procedures and consumer laws etc...
> 
> Having settled your dilemma has rendered all the "cat fighting" -again...excuse the pun- quite moot...
> 
> Your thread is important to raise the question "what should I do...???" in case this experience happens in the future to another member...should I suck it up/fight back/stay calm/lose my temper/seek justice/grant forgiveness...all legitimate questions...
> 
> Some answers are common sense...others are kinda way out there...just take what's right for you and leave the rest...
> 
> We all bring something different to the table...not all of it is edible...


I hear what you're saying, and I honestly appreciate all the advice good and bad. If I can attempt to explain without reopening anything I found some responses strayed away from advice and bordered on the extreme negative essentially telling me that I should not try (or am in the wrong for even attempting to do so) or assumed that I was doing or expecting things that I had not done and it's not the sort of thing I will sit back and take. Again apologies to any and all who may have felt offended. 

P.S. The pissing contest pun gave me a good laugh


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## Dr.StephanHeimer

iaresee said:


> Mmmhmm. Yup.


The jaws of life may be required to separate my foot from my mouth.


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## GuitarsCanada

All is well that ends well


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## jimihendrix

Not to play the devil's advocate...but there are hundreds...if not thousands of different types of lawyers...

Family law...Real estate law...Tax law...Entertainment law...Marine law...Investment/bankruptcy law...Criminal law...Jailhouse...Ad hock...Personal injury...Insurance law...International law...Immigration law...Construction law...ad infinitum....

Does the _type_ of lawyer come into play in this case...???...

When I was a kid playing road hockey...the ball went on to a neighbour's yard...he confiscated it...the police were called...the neighbour told the police he was a lawyer and would "handle things" and sent the policeman on his way...

The next day I was shocked to run into my neighbour...the "lawyer"...he was really a shoe salesman in the mall...he gave our street hockey ball back sheepishly...


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## Fader

jimihendrix said:


> Not to play the devil's advocate...but there are hundreds...if not thousands of different types of lawyers...
> 
> Family law...Real estate law...Tax law...Entertainment law...Marine law...Investment/bankruptcy law...Criminal law...Jailhouse...Ad hock...Personal injury...Insurance law...International law...Immigration law...Construction law...ad infinitum....
> 
> Does the _type_ of lawyer come into play in this case...???...
> 
> When I was a kid playing road hockey...the ball went on to a neighbour's yard...he confiscated it...the police were called...the neighbour told the police he was a lawyer and would "handle things" and sent the policeman on his way...
> 
> The next day I was shocked to run into my neighbour...the "lawyer"...he was really a shoe salesman in the mall...he gave our street hockey ball back sheepishly...


You must have mis-heard your neighbor. He must have said to the cop that he was a "liar".


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## greco

greco said:


> Just out of interest, .........was the information I provided about Small Claims Court accurate? somewhat accurate? totally incorrect?
> 
> I have never "been through" the Small Claims process and would be interested in knowing from your experience(s)
> 
> Thanks for your response.
> 
> Sorry to hijack the thread's current direction.....just want to know for the future
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Dave


I continue to wait for a response to this post. For educational purposes only.
Maybe someone will update me.

Cheers

Dave

PS This is my original post that I am referring to:

_It is my understanding, that if a (small claims) judgement is made in your favour, the collection of the "debt" (or exchange, in your situation) remains up to you to pursue. In essence, you are almost back at the starting point (but you at least have a legal judgement to support your attempts to collect/"exchange"). There is a fair amount of paperwork involved and you will have to make a court appearance. All this takes time and likely some form of expense on your part (e.g., possibly hiring a lawyer and/or time away from work). If this is a large amount of money, it might be worth it. 

Please understand that you need to clarify this with someone very familiar with the small claims process as my experiences are based on looking into this a few years ago. There are websites that outline the process and what is expected of the claimant and have the required legal forms available. I would strongly advise looking at them. 

Also, I expect that you did not get any form of receipt when you made the payment and this could be, in itself, a very significant issue in trying to make a claim. _


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## torndownunit

jimihendrix said:


> The bottom line is that we are all trying to help you...
> 
> Somehow this thread turned into a "pissing contest" -excuse the pun- about who knows more about legal procedures and consumer laws etc...
> 
> Having settled your dilemma has rendered all the "cat fighting" -again...excuse the pun- quite moot...
> *
> Your thread is important to raise the question "what should I do...???" in case this experience happens in the future to another member...should I suck it up/fight back/stay calm/lose my temper/seek justice/grant forgiveness...all legitimate questions...*
> 
> Some answers are common sense...others are kinda way out there...just take what's right for you and leave the rest...
> 
> We all bring something different to the table...not all of it is edible...


This is why I would like to clarify the violence and perceived threat/harassment points I mentioned before. The OP misunderstood my point about the risk of violence in a situation like this. He may be level headed, I may be level headed, people in the thread may be. But in this situation you are running a serious risk that someone might not be in the same frame of mind. People selling on Kijiji are not expecting people to be tracking them down after a transaction is complete. If you start calling them wanting to return an item and trying to use small claims court for leverage, it's not far fetched that they would think it's harassment or a threat. This especially applies to a questionable situation like the one posted in this thread where the OP (a) didn't know if he had legal ground to stand on, and (b) has no proof that the seller even knew of the perceived issue with the item (which he admits). Approaching this thread from an 'educational' perspective, I thought it was very important that these points be raised. There is a very real risk in a situation like this of it escalating.

My only other point related to the item be re-listed. It could be that the item is re-listed with the exact same ad because the seller doesn't think there is a problem with the item? As others have mentioned, smell can be subjective. He could have just appeased you because he didn't want the hassle (which I tend to think is the case). I don't think the same ad being posted again is really proof of anything though?


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## Guest

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> The jaws of life may be required to separate my foot from my mouth.


Don't sweat it. I only know because of a near identical thread about two years ago. For a lawyer, he's cool.


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## bagpipe

Should we have a group hug now ?


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## Steadfastly

I've had nothing but success buying and selling on Kijiji. However, I'm very careful when I'm buying something. I make sure it works as it should before anyone gets my money.


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## Powdered Toast Man

Jeez, you certainly have to put "no trades" in every ad though. I just posted a pickup and the ad was up not more than 10 minutes and I had an email asking if I'd want to trade for a wah pedal. I immediately edited the ad and put "no trades" at the bottom.


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## jimihendrix

When it comes to Kijiji...even if you write "Price is Firm"..."No Trades"..."No Lowball Offers"..."Cash Only"...into your ad...the crackheads still send you e-mails...blatantly disregarding your wishes...


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## Powdered Toast Man

My ad said "price firm" and I just had a guy pull the old "Well, I've got X cash on me right now" AFTER he'd already shown up and tried it out and was ready to take it. He'd made no offer on the price until that time. I was annoyed to say the least. I let it go, but that's a greasy move.


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## GuitarsCanada

Powdered Toast Man said:


> My ad said "price firm" and I just had a guy pull the old "Well, I've got X cash on me right now" AFTER he'd already shown up and tried it out and was ready to take it. He'd made no offer on the price until that time. I was annoyed to say the least. I let it go, but that's a greasy move.


He most likely had the other money in his right pocket. If you told him to beat it the cash would have miraculously appeared


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## Sneaky

Powdered Toast Man said:


> My ad said "price firm" and I just had a guy pull the old "Well, I've got X cash on me right now" AFTER he'd already shown up and tried it out and was ready to take it. He'd made no offer on the price until that time. I was annoyed to say the least. *I let it go, but that's a greasy move*.


Seems like a smart move to me if you "let it go". You must be new at this game. There's nothing "greasy" about haggling. If you were really firm on your price you should have kicked him out. I do make it very clear that when I finally make an appointment to see someone from Kijiji, there will be no further haggling on the price.


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## allthumbs56

OK ....... so after 12 pages ...... the case was smelly?






Geez it reminds me of a Ludlum novel .................


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## Jiro

Dr.StephanHeimer said:


> Anyone had a Kijiji Deal go bad, bought something which didn't turn out as described or had a problem you weren't told about?
> 
> What did you do/ How did you resolve it?


?Bell 412EP


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## J-75

I don't judge a guitar deal by the case. If I wanted a guitar, and there was an issue with the case, I would negotiate some compromise - maybe not including the case for a reduced fee.
When I buy a guitar, it's becauseI really want _that _guitar, and the case is irrelevant. I would never let a case get between me and a guitar that I like. One can always buy a case separately. Seems to me that the OP was only luke warm on the purchase in the first place.


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## Jiro

Yep! Sold me guitar. It was in the very best shape in all are working pretty damn good! After 10 hours later, buyer told me it wasn't working properly. So then he decided to return, i didn't mind but tested the guitar again, something is wrong. So i opened the guitar, they stole the original parts of it.


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## greco

Jiro said:


> Yep! Sold me guitar. It was in the very best shape in all are working pretty damn good! After 10 hours later, buyer told me it wasn't working properly. So then he decided to return, i didn't mind but tested the guitar again, something is wrong. So i opened the guitar, they stole the original parts of it.


WOW...Nasty!!!

Could you prove it somehow and did you confront them about it?

Cheers

Dave


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## TA462

I sold a ATV on Kijiji a few years ago. The thing was mint but a couple days later the guy that bought it emails me saying it has a torn boot. It didn't have it when I sold it. It was going to cost a couple hundred to fix he says. After about two weeks of emails back in forth I finally told him to screw off.


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