# Why can't cheap oil be a good thing?



## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

This one may end up in the political forum.... but let's start it out here. I am no economist nor do I profess to fully understand how these things work but it seems to me that the regular scum of this planet never get any kind of break. When oil was $100 a barrel we were paying $1.40 or more at the pumps. The economy was not exactly booming during that period. Things were better in Alberta I suppose. Reports are that there is literally billions and billions of barrels of yet untapped oil reserves on the planet. There is also tons of natural gas. Big strides have been made in alternative fuels. The oil companies have made obscene profits for decades. 

So now, when oil is down to $40 a barrel and gas is $1.10 or so instead of reaping any kind of benefit or being happy we are told it's bad for the economy. Companies are laying off, the dollar is falling rapidly. Oil companies are cutting back on refining yet the demand is still there. They cut back on refining to keep the cost high? There is oil stacked up all over the place. Wages never go up, prices of other goods and services never go down. Transportation costs don't seem to follow oil pricing. So why is it that we should feel guilty for lower gasoline prices? I just don't get it. No matter which way you configure it we seem to lose on the consumer level.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

it's almost like a conspiracy....


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

I believe that the oil industry in general has realized that they are in a dying business..
With global warming on everyones mind, how long will it be before the first banning of fossil fuel will be in force somewhere.
That will be the beginning of the end for the oil industry.

For now....they only real option the oil industry has is to pump more oil and make it so cheap that the competing energy maker will have to slow down to a crawl. This has already happened with the gas fracking industry....

As for the price at the pumps....there has never really been a direct coloration with the price per barrel and what you pay...
Just look around at different parts of the country...the price at the pumps is all over the map.

When you realize that the game is rigged in favor of the large corporations, you will have a better understanding of whats going on.

G.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There are multiple perspectives to reconcile: the geopolitical one, the national economic one, the environmental one, the consumer one.

As consumers, we go "Yay!! Cheaper gas!". 
As environmentalists, we go "Crap! fewer disincentives to generate carbon emissions."
As Canadians, we go "What the hell is gonna happen to those jobs, and those investment?"
As citizens of a free world, we go "If we can't afford to deliver local/national energy independence because the Saudis and emirates undercut us, then their sphere of influence is maintained."


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## Chitmo (Sep 2, 2013)

I am no expert by any means, but there isn't really a direct link from the price of oil to the price of Gas at the pumps. Part of it has to do with the value of the dollar since we import a lot of refined fuels. Our dollar is crap so we're getting less bang for the buck. Not to mention that we're exporting less oil at the moment since the cost of pulling it out of the ground is higher than the value of a barrel on the market. People have to realize as well that a large chuck of the price of gas is effin TAX!!! I was in the middle east in 2007-2008 when gas was around $1.4/Liter-ish here, it was $0.30-0.40/liter in places like egypt and Dubai. Where we tax our gas highly, they subsidize it. Having said that, I'm not sure how many people here have spent time in Europe, but I would much prefer to pay what we pay than what they do. I have seen prices around $2.50/liter when I was there.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Well it sure seemed like there was when oil prices were going up 



Chitmo said:


> I am no expert by any means, but there isn't really a direct link from the price of oil to the price of Gas at the pumps. Part of it has to do with the value of the dollar since we import a lot of refined fuels.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There _IS _a direct link, but it is mediated by the activity at refineries.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Drive electric, kick gas...............


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

except right now, an all electric car will get you across toronto but i don't think it can bring you back w/o charging


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## dago (Feb 4, 2015)

When was the last time a new refinery was built in Canada? Expensive oil can increase the price of gas but cheap oil isn't as effective at reducing the price because we are still bottle-necked at the refineries. It just isn't worth the risk and regulatory burden for companies to refine much outside the gulf coast in North America.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

That's the thrust for the pipeline going east. The east coast has refineries and that's where any oil we're producing should go. This whole "drawers of water and hewers of wood" mentality needs to stop. We're once again becoming a resource only country which is unsustainable where jobs and overall standard of living is concerned.



**** said:


> When was the last time a new refinery was built in Canada? Expensive oil can increase the price of gas but cheap oil isn't as effective at reducing the price because we are still bottle-necked at the refineries. It just isn't worth the risk and regulatory burden for companies to refine much outside the gulf coast in North America.


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## LanceT (Mar 7, 2014)

GTmaker said:


> I believe that the oil industry in general has realized that they are in a dying business..
> With global warming on everyones mind, how long will it be before the first banning of fossil fuel will be in force somewhere.
> That will be the beginning of the end for the oil industry.G.


From many other perspectives, oil is anything but dead. Look at the record number of vehicles sold every year that use fossil fuels and the no.1 vehicle forever has been a truck. Look at developing countries who want to live the Western dream of 2 cars, a house, a boat, ATV's etc. etc. 
I just need to look in my neighborhood at the number of people who insist on using gas-powered lawn mowers, leaf blowers and weed eaters on their postage-stamp size lawns and lots just to know that oil is far from dead.
Oil may be an archaic business and bad in so many ways but the fact is without it, there are few real alternatives. Electric vehicles and battery power in general while it has come a loooong way, still has many hurdles with storage capacity, size and weight of batteries to name a couple of issues.
The entire highway system and infrastructure of this country was developed because of oil.

It's a wonderful utopian idea that we can live without oil but with no realistic plan on how to essentially replace the entire economy with something else, oil is here for quite some time and maybe for as long as this planet is liveable.


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## Swervin55 (Oct 30, 2009)

Well put. You can talk about alternative energy all you want, but until there is an alternative fuel to facilitate our global goods transportation infrastructure, specifically rail, ocean going craft, aircraft and highway transports efficiently and reliably, we're going to need fossil fuels for a long time. How we get it, process it and consume it is where our immediate attention needs to be placed in terms of environmental impact. I don't believe for a second that global demand is down. I can understand that there is possibly a current glut, but we only know what we're being told and that's not often the truth. Remember the so-called "shortage" in the early 70's. We were being told then that the resource was all but expired.


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## Disbeat (Jul 30, 2011)

People seem to forget how many things we use everyday are made from petroleum products. It goes way beyond fossil fuels for transportation purposes.


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## sulphur (Jun 2, 2011)

We should've been on this thirty years ago.

Hemp can replace many of the uses of fossil fuels, plastics, etc.

What will the military do if we wean ourselves off of fossil fuels?
What country do they invade and for what purpose after that?

All the wars will then congregate in the sun belt equator.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

I agree that our entire economy and infrastructure is built around petroleum however, I don't buy the line that we absolutely need gasoline. Natural gas and methane are plentiful and renewable replacements for gasoline however the powers that be are not interested in large scale conversion as it would massively impact their bottom line.


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## Disbeat (Jul 30, 2011)

That pretty much sums it up for me as well.



nonreverb said:


> I agree that our entire economy and infrastructure is built around petroleum however, I don't buy the line that we absolutely need gasoline. Natural gas and methane are plentiful and renewable replacements for gasoline however the powers that be are not interested in large scale conversion as it would massively impact their bottom line.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Didja ever hitchhike while you're waiting for an infrequent bus to arrive? At a certain point, you get so invested in trying to score a ride that even when the damn bus finally does arrive, you let it go because, dammit, _you've been at it long enough that you're gonna score that ride_!

Oil in western Canada is a bit like hitchhiking while waiting for the bus. People, and provinces, and governments, have sunk everything they have into those oilsands because, even though the profits are a ways down the road, they just _know_ it's gonna pay off. When the price drops, and other sectors of the economy become more viable (like the bus that finally shows up) they'll be damned if they're gonna forfeit that investment sunk into oil. They're gonna hang onto it like grim death (as Jerry Seinfeld would say), partly because they can't just pull their money and hopes out, but also because it is almost an article of faith....like that great ride you just know you're bound to get eventually.

Investment counsellors will advise one to be patient, and not move your money around too nervously. So there is wisdom in not yanking the investments at the first signs of trouble. But those same investment counsellors will also tell you to diversify, and not place all your chips in one stock or kind of investment, in case something happens to it. We've done the sticking-it-out part. But unfortunately, we haven't planned particularly well for what is going on now, as the non-alternative energy sector becomes a less appealing sort of investment.

If I can be political for a moment, I'll suggest that the desire of the Government to secure the western vote, by concentrating on and championing prairie oil, misdirected its economic common sense, and led to neglect of what every economist ought to know by 2nd year university: diversify.

If the national economy were as diversified as it needs to be, Alberta wouldn't be suddenly going down the toilet, with Saskatchewan to follow, because it would have other economic sectors to turn to for those suddenly thrown out of work. And at the national level, we wouldn't be wondering what was going to replace oil revenues; we'd already have something else.

People cast him as a doomsayer and chicken-little back when he was saying it a few years ago, but we caught "Dutch disease", just as Mulcair predicted. That doesn't mean you don't put ANY chips on black, but you don't put all your chips on black.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

I'll have another go at it and try to answer the original question ...."Why cant cheap oil be a good thing ? "

ON the surface, the simple answer is that if cheap oil = cheap gas prices (energy costs) then is may be a good thing.
We all know by now that cheap oil prices have very little to do with the price at the pumps...

This is where cheap oil gets really nasty for our planet.
Cheap oil means that other sources of energy cannot complete. Businesses are always driven by the bottom line..
They don't care about the future ...only whats going to make the bottom line look better today...

The one true factor for changing behavior, is the cost ....
If a litre of gasoline was 5 dollars, there would be plenty of other choices to make our world a better place.
With intent and design, the exact opposite is happening these days..

G.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

nonreverb said:


> That's the thrust for the pipeline going east. The east coast has refineries and that's where any oil we're producing should go. This whole "drawers of water and hewers of wood" mentality needs to stop. We're once again becoming a resource only country which is unsustainable where jobs and overall standard of living is concerned.


Alberta, Sask and B.C. has refineries to and that's where some of the oil stays......most of it right now because a lot of the 'merican refineries are down and not buying much.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

When the price of oil started dropping awhile back. Prices at the pumps dropped from around $1.30 per litre to around 79 cents per litre in a few weeks. Then, the boardrooms of the big oil companies figured ways to get the prices back up. Yes, not to where they were but much higher than 79 cents. Same with furnace oil. They sneak the prices up a little at a time until their profits are back up. Were just puppets on a string and they are the puppet masters. The only thing that we can do is to buy less of their product. This in turn causes oil companies to pump less oil which causes layoffs. It can cause refineries to reduce production which among other things, causes an increase in the price at the pump. It's a vicious circle. . . Can cheap oil be a good thing? Only if it causes us to use less and save more . . . which in turn causes more layoffs.


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## TA462 (Oct 30, 2012)

GTmaker said:


> I believe that the oil industry in general has realized that they are in a dying business..


I highly doubt that. Oil is used in almost everything that is produced. Plastics, polyurethane, paint, food, the list goes on and on. Gasoline is just one product produced from oil.


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## nonreverb (Sep 19, 2006)

Not like they have in the east....and that's where the demand is greatest.









Electraglide said:


> Alberta, Sask and B.C. has refineries to and that's where some of the oil stays......most of it right now because a lot of the 'merican refineries are down and not buying much.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

nonreverb said:


> Not like they have in the east....and that's where the demand is greatest.
> View attachment 15222


Makes sense to me, living and working in the west and making a damned good living from the oil industry, that the oil should be refined here and the finished product that isn't used here can be sold to where the demand is greatest. Trans Canada does have a proposal to convert some natgas pipelines to ship crude east. Then load the raw crude on tankers and ship it off. Of course one of the problems is getting someone to say OK to building a pipeline or two or three to get some of the oil out of here. West is the best because China could be a very big customer. They already have a big investment here.


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## zontar (Oct 25, 2007)

What I'd prefer to see is a lower tax on gas--or a sliding scale tax--so when prices are high the percentage is lower--but they'll still get lots of tax money because it's a low percent of a high number--sort of like a high percent of a low number.

But that would probably be too much work for them to consider implementing...
(I'm thinking provincial taxes here.)


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## Axeman16 (Jun 5, 2008)

i thought cheap oil meant something else. i was way excited. you guys arent talking about guitar insiring oil yo
ure talking about the transport fuel used getting to the place where you play guitar. my mistake.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

GTmaker said:


> The one true factor for changing behavior, is the cost ....
> If a litre of gasoline was 5 dollars, there would be plenty of other choices to make our world a better place.
> With intent and design, the exact opposite is happening these days..
> 
> G.


I'd agree with that, if there were viable alternatives to gasoline which people can be steered towards. But that isn't the reality today at least. I think we re actually maybe 50 yrs a way . So it's not really about good/bad choices that people need to be lead towards.

bicycles and subways aren't going to work for everybody, in much the same way home shoring isn't a fit for every type of worker.
i think alternative fuels are needed, not just alternative forms of transportation. Here in the GTA public transit is very unmanageable for a lot of people that live beyond a 25 km radius of Yonge and bloor. And with entry level real estate in the core hovering around the million dollar mark, it isn't a simple solution to say everyone should just move downtown- imagine what that influx would do to prices!

battery technology is still crap. For example, battery powered mowers can't cut even a small lawn without a recharge. Fine for drills, but not much else. Even my 18v sawsall only lasts a couple of minutes on a charge. Plus, you're still dealing with an inefficient, often dirty, corrupt /incompetent supplier (how's the hydro debt retirement charge treating you?).
most places in this part of the world don't do particularly well with wind/solar due to our climate, so that's mostly an exercise in futility.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

I remember a couple (?) years back when the price of oil was way up, everybody & their dog added a surcharge to what they were doing or selling "because of high oil prices". Anything that had to be transported by truck or rail, airline flights, etc, tires even took a big jump in price. I keep waiting for the prices of things to relax now that oil is $35 a barrel. I won't hold my breath.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Consumption taxes intended to shape behaviour, rather than merely collect money, are tricky. A friend who used to be a big shot in tobacco control (now retired) told me that it was hard work finding the sweet spot with respect to tobacco and cigarette taxes. Too low and you don't impact consumption, especially amongst youth. Too high, and you simply provoke smuggling and other kinds of illicit sales and manoeuvers to avoid the tax.

In the case of cigarettes, there's nobody who earns their living smoking (dear lord, I hope not). In the case of gas, there are plenty of people whose food and shelter depends on oil production and/or consumption, from the Fort Mac pipefitter to the Carbonear taxi driver. What's great for the cab driver ain't so great for the pipefitter. Again, there is that challenge of finding the Goldilocks sweet spot where it's not too hot or too cold, but juuuusst right.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

All the points made in this thread basically sum up to show that capitalism doesn't work as many global economists are now saying. There is no fix for this because even though oil is cheap coming out of the ground the people that are refining it and selling it to us at the pump have raised their profit margins and are making a killing. The government isn't going to do a lot about it because the higher the price at the pump, the greater the tax revenue they are receiving and gas and diesel garner a huge percentage of government tax dollars. In 2013 this was over 21 Billion dollars. When gas is below a dollar per gallon that is about 30% less than it was a year ago. This works out to a loss in gas tax revenue of over 4 Billion dollars.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> All the points made in this thread basically sum up to show that capitalism doesn't work as many global economists are now saying. There is no fix for this because even though oil is cheap coming out of the ground the people that are refining it and selling it to us at the pump have raised their profit margins and are making a killing. The government isn't going to do a lot about it because the higher the price at the pump, the greater the tax revenue they are receiving and gas and diesel garner a huge percentage of government tax dollars. In 2013 this was over 21 Billion dollars. When gas is below a dollar per gallon that is about 30% less than it was a year ago. This works out to a loss in gas tax revenue of over 4 Billion dollars.


I fail to see how this issue somehow invalidates CAPITALISM.
The outrageous taxation on gas that drives up the prices for Joe Public has little to do with capitalism and capitalists rarely support high margins of tax so I think you've drawn a faulty conclusion.
if you think the oil industry is disproportionately profitable, you do have the option to share the wealth by becoming a shareholder. Cant say the same for tax money.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> "taxes intended to shape behaviour, rather than merely collect money"


I cringe every time I hear something like this. The former is nothing more than an excuse for the latter. 

Believing otherwise says a lot about the government's opinion of the average citizen.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

So you think that speeding tickets have nothing to do with making roads safer, and are only money grabs? MANY monetary burdens imposed on citizens are intended to shape behaviour. Some of those burdens come in the form of fines, some in the form of customs/duties, and some in the form of taxes. Whatever form they come in, they are intended to modify behaviour for the benefit of all: driving safer, serving food free from e. coli, buying domestically-produced goods, engaging in healthier behaviour.

Believing otherwise says a lot about an individual's opinion of government.

Hell, any time somebody mumbles "There oughta be a law against..." their intent is to shape behaviour. Is your preference to: a) let all hell break loose and let people do whatever the heck they feel like doing, b) apply criminal punishment and restrictions to shape behaviour, or c) use financial inducements?

Is it the case that every such tax is ONLY used for a stipulated purpose and is NEVER pumped into general revenues? No. I think we're in grumbling agreement there. But that's a matter of administration, and is never the basis for instituting the tax itself. Believe me, the folks in tobacco control at Health Canada look at the numbers, of morbidity and mortality, of new smokers, of cost to the health care system, and their first response is "How can we make those numbers lower?". Making a puppy-dog face and saying in your cutesiest voice "Aw, c'mon guys, PLEASE don't start smoking" doesn't do it. Prohibition doesn't do it, and ads only take you so far. Carding only makes a dent. The most effective route is to make them cost more, so that, just like my sister did, people say "I can't afford this anymore".

The challenge is: what sort, and level, of tax changes the intended behaviour in the intended direction, without unintended consequences?

As I'm fond of reminding people, drafting public policy that works well is hard. That's why so many governments disappoint us so often.


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Believing otherwise says a lot about an individual's opinion of government.


Yes, I guess it does.

Here's one for you: There's talk in my fair city about fining the parking "Good Samaritans" - you know, the ones that add a bit of change to a parking meter for a stranger as their meter is on the verge of running out. I was told two days ago by an enforcement officer that: "These people are in effect robbing the city and need to be discouraged".

Seriously. I stand by my opinion.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

In that instance, I'd stand by your opinion, too.

Maybe 15 years back, we were visiting the in-laws at their cottage near Bracebridge. I went into town with our boys, parked the car and we wandered around downtown. After a half hour or so, I noticed that the parking meters were not at the edge of the sidewalk beside the road, like everywhere else, but were actually butted up against the store wall on the other side of the sidewalk. When I had parked the car and gotten out, I hadn't seen them because they weren't where I expected. When I realized this, I told the boys we have to get back to the car and put some money in the meter. As we were nearing the car, I could see a piece of pink paper under the wiper, and my heart sank. This wasn't what I had come into town for. Was it some sort of punishment for not wanting to hang around the cottage?

When I got up to the car to see what the damage was, the note read "This is *not* a ticket! We noticed your car's time had run out so we put some money in the meter for you. Thanks for stopping by. The Downtown Bracebridge Merchants' Association." It cost them a dime or so, but they bought my undying loyalty with it. If I know anyone headed that way, I always tell them the story and recommend they visit.

If the city was going to lose money to samaritans, they're losing even more now, from folks who simply don't want to go park downtown anymore. I certainly won't, next time I'm in the area. Crazy thing is, the city gets the same revenues if the car's owner had put more money in the meter, or if a samaritan does it. What they miss out on is parking fines. And that is simply predatory.

You know, we may disagree at the abstract level, but I can certainly see how examples like that can shape your opinion.


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## Guest (Aug 22, 2015)

[video=youtube;g0ahJPxfGp4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0ahJPxfGp4[/video]


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> In that instance, I'd stand by your opinion, too.
> 
> Maybe 15 years back, we were visiting the in-laws at their cottage near Bracebridge. I went into town with our boys, parked the car and we wandered around downtown. After a half hour or so, I noticed that the parking meters were not at the edge of the sidewalk beside the road, like everywhere else, but were actually butted up against the store wall on the other side of the sidewalk. When I had parked the car and gotten out, I hadn't seen them because they weren't where I expected. When I realized this, I told the boys we have to get back to the car and put some money in the meter. As we were nearing the car, I could see a piece of pink paper under the wiper, and my heart sank. This wasn't what I had come into town for. Was it some sort of punishment for not wanting to hang around the cottage?
> 
> ...


Great story Mark.

It is indicative of a trend in government though to treat all money as if it were their own and we are left with some small pittance to live on at their discretion. I no more like Harper deciding to give me back a few bucks to renovate my home than I like Wynn constantly talking of "Revenue tools" instead of just calling them what they are

My attitude is "tell me how much you need to govern and take that much in taxes".


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Getting back to the price of gas for a minute. Up until about 2 weeks ago the price in the north end of London was running around $1.16 for regular and $1.35 for premium. South side of the city was around 2 cents cheaper. Take a very short drive north of the city and i could get it for around $1.10. Then 2 weeks ago the local Costco gas station finally opened. Cost for regular $1.01 and premium $1.14. Guess what happened to the price at most of the other local stations 

Price yesterday was $0.96 for regular and $1.08 for premium. That's about 3 cents a liter for regular cheaper than anywhere else around here, and about 10 cents cheaper than other premium prices. I'm glad I'm a member and I'll be picking up their mastercard for a further 2% reduction. 


My comment on the use of taxation to control population actions is that there is no lower form of bullshit revenue generation out there. Well OK, after insurance.

As far as speeding tickets goes I consider speeding to be much less of a problem than distracted driving. We need to get bad drivers off the road completely, not just hit them with pathetic fines that have no teeth.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

davetcan said:


> Getting back to the price of gas for a minute. Up until about 2 weeks ago the price in the north end of London was running around $1.16 for regular and $1.35 for premium. South side of the city was around 2 cents cheaper. Take a very short drive north of the city and i could get it for around $1.10. Then 2 weeks ago the local Costco gas station finally opened. Cost for regular $1.01 and premium $1.14. Guess what happened to the price at most of the other local stations
> 
> Price yesterday was $0.96 for regular and $1.08 for premium. That's about 3 cents a liter for regular cheaper than anywhere else around here, and about 10 cents cheaper than other premium prices. I'm glad I'm a member and I'll be picking up their mastercard for a further 2% reduction.
> 
> ...


We have less tax etc. and your Costco gas is 12 cents/liter cheaper than here. Go figure. As far as speeding tickets go here, that's just the fee to drive faster.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

mhammer said:


> So you think that speeding tickets have nothing to do with making roads safer, and are only money grabs? MANY monetary burdens imposed on citizens are intended to shape behaviour. Some of those burdens come in the form of fines, some in the form of customs/duties, and some in the form of taxes. Whatever form they come in, they are intended to modify behaviour for the benefit of all: driving safer, serving food free from e. coli, buying domestically-produced goods, engaging in healthier behaviour.
> 
> Believing otherwise says a lot about an individual's opinion of government.
> 
> ...


Sin taxes here went up but I don't think that had any effect on alcohol and tobacco purchases. Speeding tickets, here in Alberta at least, are not a big deal. They pull you over, write you a ticket and send you on your merry way. Doesn't seem to matter if you're caught in a school zone or doing more than twice the speed limit.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I would be happy if gas was $2 a litre or more - if the taxes were used to aid in the environment, new energy sources, etc. Like using the money to give rebates and tax breaks for solar installations. I think we are all tricked into believing our artificially cheap gas (compared to most of the world) is a birthright and not a privilege. I see many people driving 5000lb 4X4 trucks for errands, one person in the vehicle. Gas is WAAAYYYYY too cheap when you see that. Like when a German commander realized the Allies had enough fuel to ship a birthday cake from NA to Europe, he new they'd lost the war.

As far as cheap gas being good? It's all perspective. I'm sure parts of the country believed the NEP to be good policy. Others believed it to be a death-knell for a certain party in power. Cheap gas could be good, depended on where you live and where you were on the supplier/customer chain. And on how seriously you really take environmentalism.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Diablo said:


> I fail to see how this issue somehow invalidates CAPITALISM.
> The outrageous taxation on gas that drives up the prices for Joe Public has little to do with capitalism and capitalists rarely support high margins of tax so I think you've drawn a faulty conclusion.
> if you think the oil industry is disproportionately profitable, you do have the option to share the wealth by becoming a shareholder. Cant say the same for tax money.


Perhaps you missed my point. I wasn't saying that capitalists support high margins of tax. I said the people selling gas and diesel are making a killing because they are buying cheap gas and still selling it high, in effect, raising their profit margins. That is capitalism taking advantage of situations and getting as much out of people as possible regardless of the hardship it creates for people that need the product, in this case gas.









Originally Posted by *Steadfastly* 
_All the points made in this thread basically sum up to show that capitalism doesn't work as many global economists are now saying. *There is no fix for this because even though oil is cheap coming out of the ground the people that are refining it and selling it to us at the pump have raised their profit margins and are making a killing. *The government isn't going to do a lot about it because the higher the price at the pump, the greater the tax revenue they are receiving and gas and diesel garner a huge percentage of government tax dollars. In 2013 this was over 21 Billion dollars. When gas is below a dollar per gallon that is about 30% less than it was a year ago. This works out to a loss in gas tax revenue of over 4 Billion dollars._

- - - Updated - - -



High/Deaf;643269[I said:


> *]I would be happy if gas was $2 a litre or more - if the taxes were used to aid in the environment, new energy sources, etc.*[/I] Like using the money to give rebates and tax breaks for solar installations.


Do you think you could trust the government to use all that money for those purposes?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

They haven't let me down yet. They've consistently fail to do what they've promised to do since I've been paying attention. And that is not a partisan statement.


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2015)

I know what you mean.
Isn't everything still Mike Harris / Brian Mulroney's fault?


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Weren't you around in the Trudeau years?

I blame him for everything. He deserves half of it..........


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## Guest (Aug 23, 2015)

Lol, that I was. 
But, left leaning parties are teflon coated in the media.
They can't seem to do any wrong.


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## Guitar101 (Jan 19, 2011)

High/Deaf said:


> Weren't you around in the Trudeau years?
> I blame him for everything. He deserves half of it..........


I was there. I had to renew the mortgage on my home for 21% interest. And that's not a typing error. 21%.
6 months later I was able to renew again for 12% but had to pay penalties to do it. Allan MacEachen was the finance minister if I remember correctly.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

Guitar101 said:


> I was there. I had to renew the mortgage on my home for 21% interest. And that's not a typing error. 21%.
> 6 months later I was able to renew again for 12% but had to pay penalties to do it. Allan MacEachen was the finance minister if I remember correctly.


I spent one year at 18.5% and another year at 19.5 before it got down to a reasonable 12% again. The thing that got me in those years was the banks were charging $600 to renew a mortgage on top of getting all that interest.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Steadfastly said:


> Perhaps you missed my point. I wasn't saying that capitalists support high margins of tax. I said the people selling gas and diesel are making a killing because they are buying cheap gas and still selling it high, in effect, raising their profit margins. That is capitalism taking advantage of situations and getting as much out of people as possible regardless of the hardship it creates for people that need the product, in this case gas.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And you missed my point, if you removed the tax component of gas prices, gas would not be particularly expensive.
even as it is, it costs about the same as a bottle of soda pop, which millions drink every day and no one complains about.
so while you say it proves capitalism doesn't work (whatever that means), I say it proves socialism doesn't work.
im pretty sure youve made your living as the result of capitalism, unless you're posting from a gulag in Siberia...Im sure they have great internet there.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Try not to remind me of those days please. I suspect it was all down to Diefenbaker anyway, no way it could be blamed on Trudeau.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> Weren't you around in the Trudeau years?
> 
> I blame him for everything. He deserves half of it..........


Nope, it was Dief's fault or maybe Pearson's. 

- - - Updated - - -



Guitar101 said:


> I was there. I had to renew the mortgage on my home for 21% interest. And that's not a typing error. 21%.
> 6 months later I was able to renew again for 12% but had to pay penalties to do it. Allan MacEachen was the finance minister if I remember correctly.


I put off buying a house until the rates dropped. Then the ex reaped the benefits.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Diablo said:


> And you missed my point, if you removed the tax component of gas prices, gas would not be particularly expensive.
> even as it is, it costs about the same as a bottle of soda pop, which millions drink every day and no one complains about.
> so while you say it proves capitalism doesn't work (whatever that means), I say it proves socialism doesn't work.
> im pretty sure youve made your living as the result of capitalism, unless you're posting from a gulag in Siberia...Im sure they have great internet there.


On average, here, a 2 liter bottle of Coke or Pepsi is around $2.50, including deposit. That's around 13 cents more a liter than regular gas. Yet, as you say, no one really complains about the price. Me, I buy the no name stuff which is a lot cheaper. Just out of curiosity, why is there an extra line in this quote that isn't in the quoted post on my page. Something about a Gulag in Siberia. Their internet is via satellite.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Electraglide said:


> On average, here, a 2 liter bottle of Coke or Pepsi is around $2.50, including deposit. That's around 13 cents more a liter than regular gas. Yet, as you say, no one really complains about the price. Me, I buy the no name stuff which is a lot cheaper. Just out of curiosity, why is there an extra line in this quote that isn't in the quoted post on my page. Something about a Gulag in Siberia. Their internet is via satellite.


My post was in response to an exchange between steadly and myself, i didn't bring you into it.


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Diablo said:


> And you missed my point, if you removed the tax component of gas prices, gas would not be particularly expensive.
> even as it is, it costs about the same as a bottle of soda pop, which millions drink every day and no one complains about.
> so while you say it proves capitalism doesn't work (whatever that means), I say it proves socialism doesn't work.
> im pretty sure you've made your living as the result of capitalism, unless you're posting from a gulag in Siberia...Im sure they have great internet there.


Obviously gas would be less expensive if the tax were removed. So would beer and spirits. However, the government needs that tax money and if it wasn't on gas, it would be on something else. Also, it wouldn't stop companies from making a fortune on it as they are doing now. Because it would be cheaper, they may even raised their margins on it. This is not uncommon practice.

And being in a capitalist society, of course, I make my living here. However, we don't make a habit of gouging our customers. Many of them tell us to go and look after their store because they know our prices are fair.

As for soda pop, I would like to complain about that too. It's way too sweet!:smile-new::smile-new:


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

Guitar101 said:


> I was there. I had to renew the mortgage on my home for 21% interest. And that's not a typing error. 21%.
> 6 months later I was able to renew again for 12% but had to pay penalties to do it. Allan MacEachen was the finance minister if I remember correctly.


Too bad you didn't take the deal I got - 19.25% for 5 years


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

Electraglide said:


> Nope, it was Dief's fault or maybe Pearson's.
> 
> - - - Updated - - -
> 
> ...


I think mine was at 14.5%. I was paying $750.00 a month for a $48,000.00 mortgage. Someone was making a lot of money off of us.



allthumbs56 said:


> Too bad you didn't take the deal I got - 19.25% for 5 years


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Diablo said:


> My post was in response to an exchange between steadly and myself, i didn't bring you into it.


It's an open forum boy. You don't want someone coming back on your post, don't post it. Of course if you really object to my responding to your exchange, don't respond to mine.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Electraglide said:


> Nope, it was Dief's fault or maybe Pearson's.


Nope, it was Trudeau. 

He started the Canadian credit card - started a debt we're still behind on. He had nothing but contempt for anyone or anything west of Scarborough. But he loved our money - remember the NEP? He thought he had a solution for the two solitudes, but he ended up pouring all of that NEP cheap gasoline on it. It burns 40 years later.

He was reincarnated somewhat with the little thief from Shawinigan, but he started it all. No one but him.


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

Trudeau and Mulroney bankrupted us, Chretien and Harper just kicked us when we were down. But it all started with the alien PET...............


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

And I suppose in every single one of these cases, they only got about 10% of the vote?

Honest to God, you folks act as if all these assorted PMs were consistently acting *against* the popular will of those who elected them, and that every time one was voted out and replaced by another, that they too decided to act completely contrary to what got them elected.

And if, just for the sake of argument, that WAS the consistent pattern - that every successive PM did the complete opposite of what voters wanted and expected - how the hell is it that we never collectively decided we didn't want ANY of "da bums", and elected the Rhinoceros Party instead?

Don't you think the Canadian electorate shares some responsibility?


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Don't you think the Canadian electorate shares some responsibility?


They have the responsibility to vote them out of office. No one would have voted for any candidate that said, "We got this new GST tax thats gonna be great." They get voted in on promises, and voted out on actions..............


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

That still suggests that the promises they dangle in front of us, like a ball of yarn in front of a cat, persuade us that we're making an *excellent* choice.

Are you saying that we are Charlie Brown, always believing that Lucy will not pull the ball away at the last second?


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## Accept2 (Jan 1, 2006)

No, we are not Charlie Brown, we are a society which might eventually punish those in power that dont keep their promises. You can only have it so good for so long until changes are made.............


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

mhammer said:


> Don't you think the Canadian electorate shares some responsibility?


How much blame should your average German in 1933 carry for Hitlers rise to power?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Some. Even dictators have a critical mass of supporters behind them.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

allthumbs56 said:


> How much blame should your average German in 1933 carry for Hitlers rise to power?


do you actually know how it went down? because the history i learned in school say the german people should carry all the blame. most of them went along with things for convenience.


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## Guest (Sep 1, 2015)

or out of fear of the gestapo.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

cheezyridr said:


> do you actually know how it went down? because the history i learned in school say the german people should carry all the blame. most of them went along with things for convenience.


My wife's mother's family hails from Kassel, Germany, or nearby. Her grandfather got the crap beat out of him because he wouldn't surrender his rifle to the Gestapo when they went around disarming the town. So a) *no* nation responds to dictatorships with a quick salute and a "Yes SIR, sir!", and b) all totalitarian regimes depend on citizens who internalize the narrative expressed by those in power. 

For anyone who ever got "kettled", pepper-sprayed, or bopped on the head during a G20, G8, G7, or APEC protest, the RCMP who did that to you did not do it because someone was holding their family at knifepoint and they were in an "or else" situation. They did it because they had been convinced it was the right thing to do. Just how a populace gets divvied up into those who do and don't buy into the narrative of the folks in power is one of those eternal mysteries.

But back to cheap oil....

Helluva thing out in Nova Scotia, eh? All this oil flooding the market and they can't get gas for their cars.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

cheezyridr said:


> do you actually know how it went down? because the history i learned in school say the german people should carry all the blame. most of them went along with things for convenience.


I suppose you could say the same about the Japanese people too couldn't you?


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## Steadfastly (Nov 14, 2008)

allthumbs56 said:


> How much blame should your average German in 1933 carry for Hitlers rise to power?


Perhaps you have heard of community responsibility. If you vote, you are responsible for what that party does. That is one of the reasons for my neutrality toward governments and politics. I live by the laws of the country and pay my taxes but leave the governing and politics to whoever is in power.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Electraglide said:


> I suppose you could say the same about the Japanese people too couldn't you?


of course.

EDIT: maybe even more so than germany


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

mhammer said:


> My wife's mother's family hails from Kassel, Germany, or nearby. Her grandfather got the crap beat out of him because he wouldn't surrender his rifle to the Gestapo when they went around disarming the town. So a) *no* nation responds to dictatorships with a quick salute and a "Yes SIR, sir!", and b) all totalitarian regimes depend on citizens who internalize the narrative expressed by those in power.
> 
> For anyone who ever got "kettled", pepper-sprayed, or bopped on the head during a G20, G8, G7, or APEC protest, the RCMP who did that to you did not do it because someone was holding their family at knifepoint and they were in an "or else" situation. They did it because they had been convinced it was the right thing to do. Just how a populace gets divvied up into those who do and don't buy into the narrative of the folks in power is one of those eternal mysteries.
> 
> ...


re: gestapo, I dunno, I think a lot of revisionist Germans shirked responsibility. Lots of happy people at the Nuremberg rally. Hitler didn't just bully an entire nation. He seduced them as well, bolstered their broken confidence from ww1, and made grandiose promises. But I can see why so many would jump off that bandwagon when the tides turned.

as for RCMP activities, they don't need to be convinced of the right thing to do. Their job requires they blindly follow orders, it's not democratic. And it's inevitable when tensions heat up that the line between right and wrong gets blurry (on both sides, IMO).


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Having watched "Triumph of the Will", I can attest to how seductive the narrative was at the time. Still, the way that dictatorships get a populace to comply is by threats and violent examples. There are usually not enough people or arms to outnumber and force compliance; always more bystanders than soldiers. So brutal examples are used to have fear do what power and numbers can't. That's also why things like decapitations and public executions have been used, historically, especially when there was no means of surveillance of the populace. One doesn't need all that many soldiers when citizens are terrified.


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## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

Getting back on topic for a minute it appears the gas stations here in London don't know what to do. Up until late last week regular gas was running about 92c a liter and as low as 90.2 in a few places. They gradually crept up to about $1.02, for no reason, and today I've seen them as high as $1.07 this morning. Of course, in theory, any change to the price of oil should have little to no impact on prices at the pump, if we are to believe the gas execs  Fortunately our friends at Costco haven't change the price at all, except to go down a bit. I got premium today for $1.00 and regular was selling for 88.4c.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Man, I had to check the date and see if I was reading a post from 2005. I don't think we've seen gas out here for under a buck since then.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

In the last 2 weeks gas has dropped here from $1.19/l to $0.919/l.....a bit cheaper in some places and probably cheaper in edmonton and calgary. When I left Summerland to come here in 2005 gas there was $1.02, just over a buck. I don't want to think about what gas will be in N. Van and the Sunshine Coast when we're there in 2 weeks. 
N.B. The $0.919/l was about 2 hrs ago. The wife's grandson just filled the Ford. Gas at the same station is now $0.949/l. Hopefully it doesn't go any higher until I fill my truck, the car and all 3 bikes.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I think I saw $1.079/l outside the GVRD (its always more inside) yesterday. That's the cheapest I've seen in a long time.

Enjoy your trip. Hope you get the weather we got 3 weeks ago and not the stuff we got last week!!!!!


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

High/Deaf said:


> I think I saw $1.079/l outside the GVRD (its always more inside) yesterday. That's the cheapest I've seen in a long time.
> 
> Enjoy your trip. Hope you get the weather we got 3 weeks ago and not the stuff we got last week!!!!!


Hopefully we don't get snow across the pass and the Coq.. Figure I'll take the girls on one of my old jobs from the mid '70s in Stanely Park. Take them for a ride on the train if it's still there.


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## Sneaky (Feb 14, 2006)

Electraglide said:


> I don't want to think about what gas will be in N. Van and the Sunshine Coast when we're there in 2 weeks.
> N.B. The $0.919/l was about 2 hrs ago. The wife's grandson just filled the Ford. Gas at the same station is now $0.949/l. Hopefully it doesn't go any higher until I fill my truck, the car and all 3 bikes.


$1.49 for premium in Kelowna the other day.


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## Lincoln (Jun 2, 2008)

we're all over the map. One day it will be $0.94, the next morning it will be $1.19, then $1.04, then $1.09...........they are clearly messing with us. Nothing a gun won't fix. Just have to figure out who to shoot first.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Sneaky said:


> $1.49 for premium in Kelowna the other day.


Good thing my brother in Vernon has a very large tank we can fill up at when we pass thru. Right now we're in Saskatoon. The gas station across the street says $1.039/l for regular. Good thing all the vehicles burn regular.


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