# Knockoffs and ethics



## NashvilleDeluxe (Feb 7, 2018)

I’m bothered by what just came in for setup. A customer cruises in with his new Gibson SG and wants the usual going-over and personalized setup. I’ve done many for him.
As I un-cased his new purchase, my spider senses start tingling. Something’s…off. A phone call confirmed it. This is not a “Gibson SG.” It’s a “Gibsun SG.” It’s a Chinese knockoff that also knocks off about $1500 from the price tag. It’s a decent guitar with stainless steel frets and disposable pickups, but perfectly respectable.
Or is it? Is it okay to take the decades of goodwill and branding and reputation of a company, and pump out barely legal copies? Is it okay that we, as consumers, support the concept and send money to overseas companies who play fast and loose with copyright and patents?
I’ll be the first to say that Gibson’s pricing is out of line with its product and quality control these days. I find more issues with Gibson than any other brand out there. But the reputation is theirs to squander. I have an issue with willingly purchasing/supporting what amounts to counterfeit goods.
Is it just me?


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## Thunderboy1975 (Sep 12, 2013)

They're all over facebook marketplace. The skewed SG on the TRC was a clue yet they never get the shape of it right either. I only buy used guitars from the fine ladies of GC.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

NashvilleDeluxe said:


> I’ll be the first to say that Gibson’s pricing is out of line with its product and quality control these days. I find more issues with Gibson than any other brand out there.


They make complicated guitars with tricky finishes and features that require lots of hand work. When you introduce people in the manufacturing process, you get more variation than rows of Chinese machines clattering all day. I've found the quality and consistency of their new guitars quite good. Although prices have increased, that has happened across the board on all kinds of goods and services. I think they still represent good value, and from my small sample size of 3 purchased new in the last 2 years I've had no issues. If Gibson made bad guitars, no one would be replicating them.

And to quote an old friend of mine who's no longer with us, people who buy these Chinese knockoffs should be shot with a frozen ball of their own poop.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

NashvilleDeluxe said:


> Is it just me?


No, it isn't. There's been many treads and posts over the years apposed to counterfeiting, not just guitars, but many numerous items.
It's unethical and china should be held to account. However, that'll never happen because of, well, politics.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

laristotle said:


> However, that'll never happen because of, well, politics.


Careful with using that "p" word!


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## hondamatic (Feb 5, 2019)

I don’t know…

I’ve played a few lousy stock, recent gibsons. What are the ethics of making a crappy guitar in the USA and selling it to a consumer for $1500?

It’s funny too, people get quite excited about ‘lawsuit’ guitars, where they’re the same in concept but done better (maybe even better than the real thing at the time). Are they ethical, because they are a bette product? I guess they were not branded as the real thing…

I wouldn’t buy a patently fake guitar, but I also don’t have many tears saved for a brand that sells variable-quality products at premium prices.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

Don't get me started...


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## keto (May 23, 2006)

laristotle said:


> No, it isn't. There's been many treads and posts over the years apposed to counterfeiting, not just guitars, but many numerous items.
> It's unethical and china should be held to account. However, that'll never happen because of, well, politics.


It‘s broader than politics, it appears to be a wider societal shift, ethics are just not as valued generally, it seems to me.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Steal a completely original shape of guitar that took time-money-effort-creativity, steal the style of appointments that make the guitar unique, steal the name of the model of said guitar and essentially steal the name of the brand that created that iconic guitar and manufacture it somewhere that is renowned for lesser manufacturing quality, human rights violations, unfair/illegal competitive practices, geopolitical aggression and that is a direct competitive threat to the long-term viability of domestic/North American/Western companies and nations (particularly the ones that invent and innovate these products in the first place). Ya. I'd say I'm pretty opposed to that.


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## Permanent Waves (Jun 2, 2020)

Business ethics and the morality of plagiarism seem to be quite variable from one country to another. I remember 20 years ago when they found blocks of Cisco code that had "inadvertently" made their way into Huawei routers. Today, Huawei is largest telecommunications equipment manufacturer in the world. I guess for some the ends justify the means, especially when there is little enforcement or consequence for actions that can shave millions off in development costs. 

I don't think the musical instrument market has the kind of capital potential to warrant such a huge effort in plagiarism. Fact is, classic designs such as the Strat, Les Paul, ES-335 and SG have been copied by tons of manufacturers for years. Even the fabled "lawsuit" often mentioned in 70's Japanese guitar ads only took targeted the open book headstock design - they weren't fooling anyone on construction, fit and finish. In the end, it's not as easy as copying blocks of code, you still have to produce an instrument that looks, sounds and plays decent. Where I take offense is when an instrument is designed to deliberately mislead the inexperienced buyer into paying more than it's worth, as is the case with the "Gibsun" SG above.

One company that is most active in protecting its intellectual property is Rickenbacker - former CEO John Hall was renowned to be personally involved in shutting down eBay auctions and destroying inbound shipments seized at customs of obviously fake instruments that merely imitated the famous Rickenbacker body designs and crested wave headstocks. One might argue that the long lead times and ridiculous prices due to limited production of the real thing justify turning to the knockoff market. My band (as many other Rush tributes) uses a knockoff Rickenbacker doubleneck since the real thing has not been produced in 40 years and the few hundred out there generally sell in the 5 figures when they come up at all.


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## hondamatic (Feb 5, 2019)

I've been to factories low-cost countries, and have seen pretty horrifying things there. I can personally attest that civil liberties and working conditions are poor.

However, Gibson, Fender, etc. all manufacture there, and make products that are generally derivative of Strats and LP's.
They call these 'Squiers' and 'Epiphones', so I guess it's OK? 
And to avoid supporting countries and regimes like this, you'd need to pretty much stop shopping at big-box retail.

I dunno, I'm just not that worked-up about knock-off guitars given the other problems in the world.
Gibson and Fender are big american companies with lawyers, they can sort it out themselves. They don't need my pity.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

hondamatic said:


> I've been to factories low-cost countries, and have seen pretty horrifying things there. I can personally attest that civil liberties and working conditions are poor.
> 
> However, Gibson, Fender, etc. all manufacture there, and make products that are generally derivative of Strats and LP's.
> They call these 'Squiers' and 'Epiphones', so I guess it's OK?
> ...


Squier and Epiphone are budget brands owned by Fender and Gibson that are now, largely, positioned to offset other companies replicating and undercutting their products without impediment (mostly overseas). Thats not to say that products like this or ones made in China arent capable of sounding or being good (I own an Ox Top Box which was manufactured in China and an Orange TH30) or that its possible to completely avoid ANY Chinese goods (particularly when it comes to technology), but I understand the desire to avoid supporting companies with unethical business practices and items from regimes like China to the best of your ability. I used to never really care about this stuff, but have come to understand its importance over time and that its relevant to the most pressing social, political and economic issues of today.


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## pipestone62 (Nov 14, 2013)

Unethical and wrong. It’s theft. 
There is no justification for making counterfeit guitars. I don’t care what the quality is, don’t try and fool people with using a well known brand. I personally try and avoid anything made in China and will gladly pay more for products made in North America.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

^ This exactly.

I've been going on about not buying Chinese products, but so many players are ruled by their wallets only. You're not going to see many (if any) replicas coming out of Indonesia, Mexico, USA, Canada, Britain. It's always gangster China, just avoid them completely in everything (except girls maybe).


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> Steal a completely original shape of guitar that took time-money-effort-creativity, steal the style of appointments that make the guitar unique, steal the name of the model of said guitar and essentially steal the name of the brand that created that iconic guitar


But if someone becomes famous playing that knockoff the original company will make a tribute model. Or ten tribute models.

I hate counterfeits, but Gibson has made a fucking fortune from Slash's fake Les Paul. Yeah it was better quality than the Chinese crap, but it was still a fake.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

colchar said:


> But if someone becomes famous playing that knockoff the original company will make a tribute model. Or ten tribute models.
> 
> I hate counterfeits, but Gibson has made a fucking fortune from Slash's fake Les Paul. Yeah it was better quality than the Chinese crap, but it was still a fake.


He played a replica of a Gibson Les Paul and now endorses Gibson. Why shouldn't they make money off of a collaboration with a willing partner and a guitar which was literally a copy of their product from consumers who willingly want to buy their product? Its not like their claiming to be selling you Slash's actual guitar. Its a copy of a copy of a Gibson brand product.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

hondamatic said:


> I don’t know…
> 
> I’ve played a few lousy stock, recent gibsons. What are the ethics of making a crappy guitar in the USA and selling it to a consumer for $1500?
> 
> ...



Lots of people making clones of brand guitars. Is it unethical because its china? If they aren't trying to trick people in to thinking its a Gibson or a Fender is it ok? Bill Crook makes a fantastic guitar. At one point early in his career he received a letter to cease using the head stock shape. He calls his guitars T-style and S style, so basicall uses the Fender body shapes. PreWar makes a Martin type prewar D-18 and D-28 that some who have had the pleasure of playing or owning them, say are better than the prewar reissues that Martin makes. Ron Kirn makes Fender style guitars.
Nacho guitars makes vintage style Fender guitars that are supposed to every bit as vintage correct as the originals. But no one harps on these companies.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

I don't have issues with someone doing a similar body shape, or even headstock shape, as long as they don't label it as a Gibson, or Fender, or even "Gibsun." That's where they are trying to con people, and that is wrong. But, if they make something similar and label it with their own company name, that is a bit different. Of course, as a buyer, I should be prepared that for the cheap guitar I ordered from AliExpress to be of lesser quality.

I also think selling a Chibson without full disclosure that it is is not, in fact, a real Gibson is totally wrong. I am old fashioned about that type of thing.

I will note that Gibson's litigious/cease and desist tendencies impact my thoughts on this. No one thought the PRS Singlecut was a Gibson. Just like no one thinks a Carvin UltraV is a Gibson.


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

Rollin Hand said:


> I don't have issues with someone doing a similar body shape, or even headstock shape, as long as they don't label it as a Gibson, or Fender, or even "Gibsun." That's where they are trying to con people, and that is wrong. But, if they make something similar and label it with their own company name, that is a bit different. Of course, as a buyer, I should be prepared that for the cheap guitar I ordered from AliExpress to be of lesser quality.
> 
> I also think selling a Chibson without full disclosure that it is is not, in fact, a real Gibson is totally wrong. I am old fashioned about that type of thing.
> 
> I will note that Gibson's litigious/cease and desist tendencies impact my thoughts on this. No one thought the PRS Singlecut was a Gibson. Just like no one thinks a Carvin UltraV is a Gibson.


I saw a Hansen guitar for sale here on the forum. It was a beautiful guitar and it was branded with the builders name but the logo really plays tricks on your eyes with the script used. Had to look at it close as my brain almost kept seeing Fender.


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## Always12AM (Sep 2, 2018)

All of my guitars are knock offs:

















Kalamazoo (Gibson knock off’s) and golden era Fender’s are only rivalled now by very expensive boutique brands. So I was forced

Food for thought:

Are we critiquing brands for selling out and going corporate and compromising their own brand or are we criticizing people for being poor? Or poor people from selling a knock off to another poor person because neither of them can afford to walk into L&M and buy a 2021 American Proffesional II (which is quite frankly a very pale imitation of the original product from which name it bares) from a licensed dealer??

I disagree morally with planned obsolescence and mass produced offshore landfill-destined commercial production, but that is a much bigger discussion and the blame is not to be attributed to the everyday people who are simply trying to assimilate to the culture that we all created by allowing brands and names to become status symbols of self worth.

I do encourage being a conscious consumer, but I also know what off brand GI Joe’s and 2 stripe byway adidas knock offs feel like on my psyche as a child. So I try not to blame peoples lack of inherent wealth and opportunity for their desire to feel good.

This is a forum which is built around the masturbatory discussion of brands and luxury items, so this isn’t where I would launch a debate around the morals of it, but in real life, if you are a musician and truly support a meritocratic based community of musicians, you can easily tape off or remove logo’s from gear and inspire young musicians and those without money to focus on the music.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

I'm pretty sure the poor underprivileged children won't be damaged by playing an Epiphone. No one is criticizing people for being poor. I do criticize people for being dishonest.


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## Budda (May 29, 2007)

We're calling USA ethical in this thread? Oh no.


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## NoEncores (Sep 23, 2018)

hondamatic said:


> I don’t know…
> 
> I’ve played a few lousy stock, recent gibsons. What are the ethics of making a crappy guitar in the USA and selling it to a consumer for $1500?
> 
> ...


it seems pretty clear to me. you as the consumer has the opportunity to purchase or pass on any American made Gibson but at least you know what you are buying or passing on.
I also think using a blanket statement to say every Gibson out there is a total piece of garbage is disingenuous and silly but that's beside the point.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Permanent Waves said:


> One company that is most active in protecting its intellectual property is Rickenbacker - former CEO John Hall was renowned to be personally involved in shutting down eBay auctions and destroying inbound shipments seized at customs of obviously fake instruments that merely imitated the famous Rickenbacker body designs and crested wave headstocks. One might argue that the long lead times and ridiculous prices due to limited production of the real thing justify turning to the knockoff market. My band (as many other Rush tributes) uses a knockoff Rickenbacker doubleneck since the real thing has not been produced in 40 years and the few hundred out there generally sell in the 5 figures when they come up at all.


About 14 or so years back, there was a suit against PRS, brought by Gibson, against use of their "trademark" Les Paul design for the PRS Single-Cut. The case was ultimately dismissed by the court because Gibson had allowed Asian and other companies to produce lookalikes for decades at that point without ever taking action. And trademarks are the sort of thing one has to make active attempts to protect in order for them to continue being considered AS "trademarks". If Fender attempted to take down any of the many small producers that turn out great Strats, they would be met with the same fate.

As you correctly note, Rickenbacker has been consistent in their pursuit of knockoffs. One CAN find limited supply of Rick lookalikes, but their production gets shut down quickly, once Hall & Co. find out about them. In that instance, Rickenbacker CAN lay claim to trademark infringement because of their constant defense of a distinctive brand-associated design from the get-go. For Fender and Gibson, though, that boat has not only sailed, but has been back in port to pick up more passengers and freight many many times. My sense is that their respective launches of budget lines was largely an if-you-can't-beat-'em-join-'em response. Neither could rely entirely on consumer perception of their brands as being clearly greater quality than Asian knockoffs, so the only way to compete against imported budget brands was to become one themselves.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

I own knockoffs, but they're labelled as such with that company's logo.
Again, the problem is counterfeits.
I think that the OP should edit the title to 'counterfeits and ethics'.


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## Rollin Hand (Jul 12, 2012)

BlueRocker said:


> I'm pretty sure the poor underprivileged children won't be damaged by playing an Epiphone. No one is criticizing people for being poor. I do criticize people for being dishonest.


Also, most parents don't buy a Gibson for their little rocker's first guitar. They will go for something cheap that functions, then agree to upgrade (somewhat) if the kid sticks with it. The kid may not love that first guitar (at least not until they'rex older and feeling nostalgic), but it serves its purpose.

I predominantly buy cheap guitars, though I can afford more expensive stuff. No need for the truly pricy stuff in my view. Others may disagree, and that's fine. 

I won't buy a true counterfeit, but would buy (and have bought) a "Les Paul-alike" or "S-style" guitar quite happily if the company has* their own name* on it. Heck, I am always on the lookout for a 70s Destroyer or similar.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Budda said:


> We're calling USA ethical in this thread? Oh no.


Modern day USA and China are not the same thing. Not even close.


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## Permanent Waves (Jun 2, 2020)

mhammer said:


> About 14 or so years back, there was a suit against PRS, brought by Gibson, against use of their "trademark" Les Paul design for the PRS Single-Cut. The case was ultimately dismissed by the court because Gibson had allowed Asian and other companies to produce lookalikes for decades at that point without ever taking action. And trademarks are the sort of thing one has to make active attempts to protect in order for them to continue being considered AS "trademarks".


I remember that lawsuit, and the judge ruled "only an idiot would confuse the two products at the point of sale." I thought it was pretty ironic that Gibson chose that model to sue someone over, considering how many more accurate copies have been made over the years and how dissimilar the PRS Singlecut is to the LP. This was a rather obvious (and pathetic) attempt by Gibson to hamstring a successful up-and-coming competitor that was rightfully taking market share after decades of Gibson stagnation and Juszkiewicz mismanagement. I love Gibson guitars, but I lost a lot of respect for the company itself after that.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> He played a replica of a Gibson Les Paul and now endorses Gibson. Why shouldn't they make money off of a collaboration with a willing partner and a guitar which was literally a copy of their product from consumers who willingly want to buy their product? Its not like their claiming to be selling you Slash's actual guitar. Its a copy of a copy of a Gibson brand product.


They fight counterfeits/fakes (as they certainly should), but in that case they capitalized off of a fake. My point is that they are situational in their fight against counterfeits/fakes. They are completely against them, unless they can make a shitload of money from it then they're fine with the fake. It is hypocritical and their position lacks consistency.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

One of the challenges now is that distribution/sale of instruments is not confined to large in-store retailers as it once was. Thirty years ago, if Sears or Walmart started selling Chinese counterfeits, whatever major guitar-maker was being copied could justifiably, and probably effectively, approach that retailer and tell them to desist sale of a counterfeit. No different than if Walmart was selling Rolax watches or Goocci handbags. But once instrument purchase became an online thing and individual customers could order directly from China, and there was no specific domestic distributor that could be pressured to stop, all bets were off.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

mhammer said:


> One of the challenges now is that distribution/sale of instruments is not confined to large in-store retailers as it once was. Thirty years ago, if Sears or Walmart started selling Chinese counterfeits, whatever major guitar-maker was being copied could justifiably, and probably effectively, approach that retailer and tell them to desist sale of a counterfeit. No different than if Walmart was selling Rolax watches or Goocci handbags. But once instrument purchase became an online thing and individual customers could order directly from China, and there was no specific domestic distributor that could be pressured to stop, all bets were off.


Yes, this is the issue. Gibson and Fender didn't even file suit for years because of the cost and inability to enforce copyright laws abroad and didn't even have a Trade Dress Doctrine in the USA until the 1990s. By that time they had already gone through lawsuits (some successful, like Ibanez, and some unsuccessful, like the PRS lawsuit which had both a successful outcome in a lower court and an unsuccessful outcome in a higher court on appeal) and were very well aware that it was impossible to finance suit against every company that copied them and, largely, too late for certain copyright arguments. Now days its even more impossible with full-on globalization and online sales. So, instead, you have to compete and file strategic lawsuits when necessary.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

colchar said:


> They fight counterfeits/fakes (as they certainly should), but in that case they capitalized off of a fake. My point is that they are situational in their fight against counterfeits/fakes. They are completely against them, unless they can make a shitload of money from it then they're fine with the fake. It is hypocritical and their position lacks consistency.


I hear what you're saying, but it was literally a replica of their product and with their brand name on it. Just practically they have to be situational in their response and are not wrong to profit off of their design/brand/name/product. Especially, when the partner voluntarily agrees to endorse them and consumers are purchasing the item of their own free will.


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

I don't really care what shape of a guitar anyone makes. Put your own brand on it and have some pride in your goddamn work though.


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## Sketchy Jeff (Jan 12, 2019)

did the purchaser believe he had a legit Gibson? 
j


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Jim DaddyO said:


> I don't really care what shape of a guitar anyone makes. Put your own brand on it and have some pride in your goddamn work though.


I agree. If you put your own (different) name on an instrument and do something unique design/appointment-wise to differentiate it, I have zero issues. My problem is with brands very clearly trying to sell consumers a Fender Stratocaster, Gibson SG, etc and just cutting out the originator. To me, that's completely unethical. Like in the OPs example, the producer stole the design, the appointments, the model name and (essentially) the brand name with the obvious intention to sell consumers a Gibson SG; not a different/unique model of guitar. To me, that's just a company making money off of anothers efforts/time/creativity and consumers feeling that they're entitled to someone else's products/services at the price point they deem fit.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> I hear what you're saying, but it was literally a replica of their product and with their brand name on it.


Counterfeits are replicas with their brand name on it. The only difference is that Slash's guitar was made by a luthier.





> Just practically they have to be situational in their response and are not wrong to profit off of their design/brand/name/product. Especially, when the partner voluntarily agrees to endorse them and consumers are purchasing the item of their own free will.


The next time they try to sue anyone for copying their guitars, the first thing the lawyers from the other party should do is point to the Slash guitar.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

Budda said:


> We're calling USA ethical in this thread? Oh no.


Context matters. 
If you want to talk about quality of life and working standards, then yes. Not even comparable.


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> I agree. If you put your own (different) name on an instrument and do something unique design/appointment-wise to differentiate it, I have zero issues. My problem is with brands very clearly trying to sell consumers a Fender Stratocaster, Gibson SG, etc and just cutting out the originator. To me, that's completely unethical. Like in the OPs example, the producer stole the design, the appointments, the model name and (essentially) the brand name with the obvious intention to sell consumers a Gibson SG; not a different/unique model of guitar. To me, that's just a company making money off of anothers efforts/time/creativity and consumers feeling that they're entitled to someone else's products/services at the price point they deem fit.


I think one of the factors that nudged Gibson to simply neglect protection of their trademark designs was the tacit assumption that consumers simply "knew" the difference in quality between Gibson products and cheap department-store knockoffs from jobbers. In other words, embedded or wqrapped up in their trademark was not only body shape but quality. A beginner would purchase a cheap knockoff that kinda sorta looked like "what the stars use", and eventually graduate to "a good guitar" (i.e., a Gibson, Gretsch, Fender, etc.) as they became a more capable player and saved up a bit more money.

That rationale worked for a while, as long as foreign workmanship was poor to modest. As that workmanship improved, though, the gap between those knockoffs that the big companies had allowed to flourish, and the big companies' flagship lines, disappeared. What was coming out of Japan, and eventually Korea, was pretty damn good, especially for their price. Gibson and Fender responded not by effectively blocking their sale in North America, but by entering the budget market themselves.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

guitarman2 said:


> Lots of people making clones of brand guitars. Is it unethical because its china? If they aren't trying to trick people in to thinking its a Gibson or a Fender is it ok? Bill Crook makes a fantastic guitar. At one point early in his career he received a letter to cease using the head stock shape. He calls his guitars T-style and S style, so basicall uses the Fender body shapes. PreWar makes a Martin type prewar D-18 and D-28 that some who have had the pleasure of playing or owning them, say are better than the prewar reissues that Martin makes. Ron Kirn makes Fender style guitars.
> Nacho guitars makes vintage style Fender guitars that are supposed to every bit as vintage correct as the originals. But no one harps on these companies.


They're not CNCing MDF into les paul shaped objects are they? The chinese do.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

laristotle said:


> I own knockoffs, but they're labelled as such with that company's logo.
> Again, the problem is counterfeits.
> I think that the OP should edit the title to 'counterfeits and ethics'.


OMG thank you. Everytime this comes up the discussion diverges from counterfeit Chinese "Gibsons" into lookalike/tribute brands, or MIJ lawsuits, or that guy in kitchner that made his own copy...
Not the same


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> They're not CNCing MDF into les paul shaped objects are they? The chinese do.


type of material used has nothing to do with the ethical question.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

__





The Fake Epiphone Thread II


And how do you know that is a fake? fake - legit fake - legit fake - legit fake - legit fake - legit fake - legit




www.mylespaul.com





They will counterfiet anything to take your money, as they have near endless cheap labour to provide unfathomable low expenses, and no laws preventing it.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

guitarman2 said:


> type of material used has nothing to do with the ethical question.


? How? They legitimate makers put their own names on good guitars, the chinese put Gibson on a hunk of MDF and you think the ethics are the same?


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## guitarman2 (Aug 25, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> ? How? They legitimate makers put their own names on good guitars, the chinese put Gibson on a hunk of MDF and you think the ethics are the same?



So if the chinese makers used rosewood, maple or mahogany all is ok? Give your head a shake.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

guitarman2 said:


> So if the chinese makers used rosewood, maple or mahogany...


In fact they do.

Many players try to downplay the quality of these replicas - they are either misinformed or trying their best in a possibly misguided effort to spread misinformation in order to discourage buying them. I've had my hands on a couple replicas (one for a whole year) and they are just as good quality as your average Epiphone. Sorry to burst the balloon on that one, but them's the facts.

P.S. Don't buy replicas!


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

tomee2 said:


> ? How? They legitimate makers put their own names on good guitars, the chinese put Gibson on a hunk of MDF and you think the ethics are the same?


Actually, Gibson themselves put "Gibson" on the headstock of what was essentially a hunk of MDF once upon a time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gibson_Sonex


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

guitarman2 said:


> So if the chinese makers used rosewood, maple or mahogany all is ok? Give your head a shake.


No of course not! And I never said that. But if someone uses those materials, like Edward's does, and doesn't put Gibson on the headstock, that's as bad as a fake Gibson?


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## hondamatic (Feb 5, 2019)

tomee2 said:


> OMG thank you. Everytime this comes up the discussion diverges from counterfeit Chinese "Gibsons" into lookalike/tribute brands, or MIJ lawsuits, or that guy in kitchner that made his own copy...
> Not the same


I think the lawsuit discussion is pertinent.

If you use a different brand name, but the _exact same script_ and virtually every other detail is identical, are you not still knocking off or counterfeiting?










How is this conceptually different from a 'Gibsun'?

Again, I'm having a discussion about these points and exchanging ideas. I don't have an EBay store selling 'Rickenbucklers'.

But I will say, if Godin can sell an excellent North American-made guitar for $900-1400, why is Gibson peddling offshore Epiphones for $1400? And why isn't every single USA-built Gibson a good-playing guitar?

So my heart isn't filled with pity for them.


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## EchoWD40 (Mar 16, 2007)

delete post. not worth it.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

hondamatic said:


> If you use a different brand name, but the _exact same script_ and virtually every other detail is identical, are you not still knocking off or counterfeiting?
> How is this conceptually different from a 'Gibsun'?


Let's try again. Rinse, repeat.

Knock off, yes. Because the manufacturer has their name on it. In this case, Ibanez.
Buyers know that _this is not_ a gibson and they're priced accordingly.

A counterfeit with a gibson logo is still that. A counterfeit (the SG pictured in the OP is a perfect example).
Meant to fool any subsequent buyer after the initial purchaser (for under $300) from alibaba/aliexpress, or some other overseas distributer.
That buyer puts it on kijiji/craigslist with an asking price of $800 - 1500.
Some unsuspecting buyer will grab that, thinking that they got a bargain, but instead, threw away a lot of money for a piece of garbage.
Capisce?


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## NashvilleDeluxe (Feb 7, 2018)

laristotle said:


> I own knockoffs, but they're labelled as such with that company's logo.
> Again, the problem is counterfeits.
> I think that the OP should edit the title to 'counterfeits and ethics'.
> 
> I’m always happy to correct myself, but I don’t understand the difference.


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## NashvilleDeluxe (Feb 7, 2018)

Sketchy Jeff said:


> did the purchaser believe he had a legit Gibson?
> j


No. I phoned to break the news to him, and he knew. It was presented to me as, “my new Gibson,” so I felt obligated to call him back.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

FatStrat2 said:


> In fact they do.
> 
> Many players try to downplay the quality of these replicas - they are either misinformed or trying their best in a possibly misguided effort to spread misinformation in order to discourage buying them. I've had my hands on a couple replicas (one for a whole year) and they are just as good quality as your average Epiphone. Sorry to burst the balloon on that one, but them's the facts.
> 
> P.S. Don't buy replicas!


False. We've been here before in another thread. I actually work on these guitars occasionally. I've yet to see one that measured up to basic Epiphone levels. When you have to take a close look, you can see they are total shit.
Maybe you played one that someone like me turned into something you can play.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

NashvilleDeluxe said:


> I’m always happy to correct myself, but I don’t understand the difference.


I try to explain my, and many others, definition in the post directly above yours.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

This site has been here many times...


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

Bring on the tonewood relic'd partscasters


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

There's admiration (i.e., boy oh boy that's a GREAT design), there's laziness (i.e., why bother with a new design when I can simply copy this), and there's deception (i.e., I can make this so hardly anyone can tell the difference, and make a lot of money at it).

The trademark battles were mostly about maintaining brand strength, and a teensy bit about preventing deception. That is, a guitar that said ACME on the headstock, but looked like a Les Paul was clearly not attempting to hoodwink anyone, but was felt to erode the perceived quality of actual Gibsons...or at least that was the gist of typical legal arguments against trademark infringement. When there are clear attempts to NOT identify an instrument as a copy of a higher-priced brand, as in the case of Chibsons, then it moves from admiration and laziness to outright deception.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

zztomato said:


> False. We've been here before in another thread. I actually work on these guitars occasionally. I've yet to see one that measured up to basic Epiphone levels. When you have to take a close look, you can see they are total shit. Maybe you played one that someone like me turned into something you can play.


Nah, no maybe about it. Whether good or bad, my experience with the couple I've tried (about 11 years apart, one not 2 months ago) has clearly shown me that these replicas easily play as well, have comparable fit & finish and sound similar to your typical Chinese made Epiphones. Their owners know it too.

Many have speculated these fraudulent guitars are produced in the same factories as 'legit' guitars. That makes sense to me considering there's no re-tooling required - just pump them out and relabel them.

No need to take my word for it. There are quite a few videos & articles out there of surprised (and grudgingly accepting) guitar techs and luthiers that back up their quality. I'm certainly not endorsing these cheater fakes, but I would be lying if I denied their parallel quality to Chinese Epiphones.


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## NashvilleDeluxe (Feb 7, 2018)

laristotle said:


> Let's try again. Rinse, repeat.
> 
> Knock off, yes. Because the manufacturer has their name on it. In this case, Ibanez.
> Buyers know that _this is not_ a gibson and they're priced accordingly.
> ...


So, the difference between counterfeit and knock-off comes down to the logo/branding? Interesting. From 5 feet away, this particular guitar would fool a lot of people. Up close, it doesn't take much brand knowledge to start spotting giveaways. I've always thought a counterfeit was an item created to fool experts, with intent to deceive. I do understand your distinction, though, as it applies to guitar-land. My day job is teaching high school English, so I get bogged in definitions sometimes.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

tomee2 said:


> OMG thank you. Everytime this comes up the discussion diverges from counterfeit Chinese "Gibsons" into lookalike/tribute brands, or MIJ lawsuits, or that guy in kitchner that made his own copy...
> Not the same



At the most basic level they are the same - guitars not made by Gibson (or whichever manufacturer) that have their name on the headstock.

When courts adjudicate copyright infringement the quality of the offending article does not come into play.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

tomee2 said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I once watched a news program about counterfeits and a US customs agent said that the most seized counterfeit item at their borders is dish soap. If they can make a nickel, they will fake it. And for that reason the "it isn't worth faking X model of guitar" arguments don't hold water.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

tomee2 said:


> ? How? They legitimate makers put their own names on good guitars


Not all do that.

Slash's Derrig that I mentioned earlier said 'Gibson' on the headstock.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

BlueRocker said:


> Bring on the tonewood relic'd partscasters


What is arguably the most famous Strat in the world is a Partscaster.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

To me, a company intentionally trying to sell a Gibson SG or whatever iconic guitar (not their own different, unique product) is the music industry equivalent of intentionally manufacturing a song to very closely replicate a past hit song. Sometimes they will pay for the rights to the song, sometimes they won't and will lose a lawsuit or sometimes they won't and they'll win a lawsuit. Either way, the originator will weigh their options and be selective knowing that they can't possibly sue everyone, that's its not worth suing everyone (I doubt Gibsun would last long enough or be able to pay out enough money to cover Gibsons legal costs and any damages) and that sometimes their work has been strategically changed JUST ENOUGH to avoid legal liability. Regardless, the question is whether you feel that this is unethical. That will be personal as, in the music industry example, some are oblivious, some don't care, some just want the product and some will be opposed. Personally, I'm opposed.


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)

NashvilleDeluxe said:


> From 5 feet away, this particular guitar would fool a lot of people


You might ten feet for mine. lol


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

colchar said:


> I once watched a news program about counterfeits and a US customs agent said that the most seized counterfeit item at their borders is dish soap. If they can make a nickel, they will fake it. And for that reason the "it isn't worth faking X model of guitar" arguments don't hold water.


Exactly right. The Epiphone website used to have a notice about the fake LP Customs, as some buyers of were accusing Epiphone of using MDF for their bodies but it was the fakes that were made of MDF. Some of these buyers bought them new from unlicensed dealers. How do you fake a guitar with an msrp of $600? Build it of even cheaper materials. 

As for the Derrig guitar... yes it's a counterfeit just like the chinese ones. But anyone here, in north america, building a les paul and putting Gibson on the headstock gets a letter, and they stop. Not the chinese. That's where the difference is. It's been 25+ years of counterfeit goods coming from China with no end in sight. I don't see a website selling the Derrig LP counterfeits.


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## mawmow (Nov 14, 2017)

It is not just you !

Gibson co. was a pioneer and so deserve respect... as well as their patent licenses to be respected too !

I suspect Eastman is in some way copying Taylor... but they have their own brand at much lower price. They are getting reknowned and their prices may rise, but they do not dump Taylor copies on the market.

Now, I do not know how much honest and reknowned guitar crafters copy each others in some way or another : There are not really thousand ways to build a guitar, are there ?


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

Let's look at this from the perspective of the owner of such an instrument, rather than the perspective of the various companies duking it out in court.

If you_ thought_ you bought a "name" brand, for what seemed like a great price, but not SO cheap that it set off alarms, would you feel cheated if you found out it wasn't what you thought? Probably, I suppose. Especially if the seller didn't tip their hand. Although if it was a decent instrument, and you weren't planning to flip it or even sell it until you were old and grey, what it says on the headstock might not bug you. The main thing is whether it was value for the money.

But then, what if you're the sort who wants to be viewed as someone with good taste in guitars? Do you want to keep explaining to others that, no, it's not what it_ says_ on the headstock, but is a knockoff made to look like one, and actually plays pretty good...for a knockoff? For some folks, I imagine that would be a real fly in the ointment. I'm not slagging them,; it's just a different set of goals.

Personally, if I really enjoyed the tone and playability of an instrument, and didn't feel that I was "taken" when I purchased it, I wouldn't care if the headstock said Gresh, Flender, or Gypson. Certainly many of us had department-store guitars whose brands (Aria, Emperador, Apollo, Pan, Teisco, Silvertone, Harmony, etc.) didn't become hip until decades later. I remember well when one was semi-apologetic for playing an Ibanez, before they became better known and mainstream.

Now, if you paid _close_ to name-brand prices for a knockoff, and the seller did not tip their hand, you be plenty pissed. It has nothing to do with trademark infrongement, but rather misrepresentation of goods.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

I can see someone getting suckered if:

They've never played or even seen the original brand to compare it with
They might not be very perceptive of quality.differences and can only read the headstock


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## silvertonebetty (Jan 4, 2015)

BlueRocker said:


> I'm pretty sure the poor underprivileged children won't be damaged by playing an Epiphone. No one is criticizing people for being poor. I do criticize people for being dishonest.


I don’t really see an issue playing a “tribute” or “knock off” unless they are claiming to be the real deal. There’s so many off shore companies that put slot of us brands to shame . Take Japan they make fantastic guitars and even Korea now makes a killer guitar


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## bentwire17 (Sep 7, 2011)

Isn’t this the Les Paul ( Bartlett?Not a Bartlett?)that was a hot topic item a year ago ?
I heard it was a nice guitar , but was caught in a whirlwind of provenance.









59 Burst (sell/trade) | Guitars | City of Toronto | Kijiji


Unique replicate of a 59 burst. 100 year old growth 1 piece mahogany with flamed maple top. Brazilian rosewood fret board. Patina throughout the top and is nicely aged. Mildly aged on back of 1 piece big neck . Neck is very similar to 58 Explorer. Very alive and resonant acoustically. Nitro...




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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

bentwire17 said:


> Isn’t this the Les Paul ( Bartlett?Not a Bartlett?)that was a hot topic item a year ago ?
> I heard it was a nice guitar , but was caught in a whirlwind of provenance.
> 
> 
> ...


someone should trade him a replica of a vintage watch 
"Unique replicate of a 59 burst. 100 year old growth 1 piece mahogany with flamed maple top. Brazilian rosewood fret board. Patina throughout the top and is nicely aged. Mildly aged on back of 1 piece big neck . Neck is very similar to 58 Explorer. Very alive and resonant acoustically. Nitro Finished by luthier builder. Modern size frets. Seymour Duncan sighed Slash Alnico II PAF zebra pickups. Crazy Parts knobs and pickup rings. Original vintage Gibson 50s strap buttons. Faber German bridge and tailpiece. Creamtone posts and thumbwheels. Gibson VOS pickguard, pickup switch, backplate, jack cover, toggle switch plate and tuners. WD oil tone caps and pots. About 8.8 lbs. Price---5.5k. Modern Gibson brown case. *Trades considered-----guitar items----vintage watches working or not.* Leave contact number if serious. thanks "


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## Zurdo-USA (Dec 1, 2010)

Nashville, if there is a problem, it is in your head. China, Japan, and South Korea are producing exceptional string instruments that sometimes surpass the originals. At one 5th the price. This prejudice against Asian products has gone on for long enough. Gibson Nasdhville is producing mediocre qualitty instruments, Fender USA thinks they are the last coke in the desert. Same with Gretsch and everybody else with their "Custom Shops" and impossible prices for the average player. Enter China and BOOM !! They make you an SG that could be better manufactured than the one in Nashville.
I do not agree with China making copies that include the Gibson Logo, but then you have Americans selling fake Fender DECALS on eBay. How do you reconcile THAT ? Do you blame the chinese but leave the Joe Blow in California out of the accusations? Justice is FOR ALL. 
I know by personal experience what China is doing. Let's put the example of a Hofner "Beatle" Bass: I purchased a copy of that bass made in China for $250.00 with Case and delivery included in price. I can't be fooled because I have been playing a 1967 Hofner Beatle Bass made in Germany since 1967.
So what did I find?
I found an incredibly perfect Beatle Bass reproduction which is not just "perfect" but it RESOLVED the perennIal German-made bass heel separation problem that the German made basses have. The chinese resolved the NECK ANGLE and eliminated the heel problem. 
Do you blame them? I admire them. 
The china Beatle Bass PLAYS BETTER and it was MADE BETTER than my 1967 German Beatle Bass. 

So my point is, being prejudiced against asian products is a waste of time. They have taken over the world in manufacturing. 

Ford, General Motors, Chrysler, all have their parts made in china. When you go to the dealer to buy parts for your Made In America car, you open the box and the parts say "made in china". 
Fender and Epiphone have plants in Asia. The South Koreans make beautiful Epiphone copies. 
Hell, even /Mexico makes better Fenders than in the USA, unless you pay the "Custom Shop" to make one-off guitars. Why should you when you can get a hand-made Fender from China or other Asian country for 10 times LESS and 10 times the same quality? 

To close, I repeat that I do not agree with copying the Gibson Logo, they should have THEIR OWN headstock logo. At this point THEY HAVE EARNED IT.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

Zurdo-USA said:


> Gibson Nasdhville is producing mediocre qualitty instruments, Fender USA thinks they are the last coke in the desert.


Please send me some mediocre quality Gibsons - if you're getting them from the "Nasdhville" plant, they may be Chinese fakes!


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## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

The "problem" ( maybe "issue" is a better word) with imports from Asia is one of our own making. For decades we have lived in a "capitalism run amok" society where the only barometer of success was the bottom line and the dividends. This lead to sourcing of ever cheaper labour markets and we, the consumer, kept demanding less expensive goods to offset our declining purchasing power. Now we have come to the point where the fracturing of the supply line has shown the flaw in that course of action, not to mention the JIT "optimising" of that system. We can't get things because we don't make them. In the meantime offshore manufacturing of goods have tooled up and learned to make things as good, or better than we used to (you'd think we would have learned that lesson from the example of Japan in the '70's). 

There is no sense blaming the manufacturer of goods for poor workmanship. Factories build to the specifications and quality control of the people ordering the goods, as does any manufacturer in the world. If you're lax, you get crap. Blame the brand that set out the specs and QA regimen. Couple that with the (China specifically) not recognizing of trade marks, patents, and copyright that is policy, you get what we got.


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## Fuzzy dagger (Jun 3, 2016)

Interesting thread with many thoughtful reply’s. Supply and demand, can’t have one without the other. It’s like blaming South America for the cocaine problem. A 52” HD tv made in Canada would cost $12,000.00. I don’t begrudge developing nations the manufacturing jobs. I am uneasy with rampant consumerism which we’re all guilty of to some degree. I only buy Gibson and Fender because those are the brands I coveted when I was young. I definitely have studied what a fake Gibson looks like, because I don’t want one, but if you want to an offshore brand that looks alike then fill your boots. It shouldn’t say fender or Gibson on the headstock though. FWIW I have owned Asian made epi and squire gits and all my Gibson’s and fenders were perfect fit and finish.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Zurdo-USA said:


> Nashville, if there is a problem, it is in your head. China, Japan, and South Korea are producing exceptional string instruments that sometimes surpass the originals. At one 5th the price. This prejudice against Asian products has gone on for long enough. Gibson Nasdhville is producing mediocre qualitty instruments, Fender USA thinks they are the last coke in the desert. Same with Gretsch and everybody else with their "Custom Shops" and impossible prices for the average player. Enter China and BOOM !! They make you an SG that could be better manufactured than the one in Nashville.
> I do not agree with China making copies that include the Gibson Logo, but then you have Americans selling fake Fender DECALS on eBay. How do you reconcile THAT ? Do you blame the chinese but leave the Joe Blow in California out of the accusations? Justice is FOR ALL.
> I know by personal experience what China is doing. Let's put the example of a Hofner "Beatle" Bass: I purchased a copy of that bass made in China for $250.00 with Case and delivery included in price. I can't be fooled because I have been playing a 1967 Hofner Beatle Bass made in Germany since 1967.
> So what did I find?
> ...


Generally, Fender and Gibson are not producing mediocre instruments. Generally, China and Mexico are not making better quality reproductions. And there is no general anti-Asian prejudice here; rather, negative sentiment towards outright unfair/illegal competitive practices regardless of country of origin (see practices like China's undercutting of Nortel Networks which occurs in almost every economic sector) and regimes that engage in open modern day human rights violations, geopolitical aggression and, generally, actions that run counter to the long-term viability of domestic/North American/Western companies and nations (which is where I and many of the people in this forum live). For the most part, manufacturers of this nature are stealing and reproducing (to a slightly lower quality) existing products instead of inventing and innovating anything and, then, using questionable labor practices in order to produce these items at a lower cost. 

At the end of the day, the arguments from consumers on behalf of these products, largely, comes down to price. People, generally, want the product (or some semblance of it) for the price that they want to deem fit and that price is almost always lower than that of the original creator and is influenced by looking at competition that has engaged in the above. Why shouldn't people buy these cheaper products and can you blame them? I mean, this comes down to how you feel about the ethics/morality of the above and will be personal depending on the individual. But its never a waste of time to let your opinion be known by where you spend your money (anything can be changed with enough time and effort).


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

FatStrat2 said:


> Nah, no maybe about it. Whether good or bad, my experience with the couple I've tried (about 11 years apart, one not 2 months ago) has clearly shown me that these replicas easily play as well, have comparable fit & finish and sound similar to your typical Chinese made Epiphones. Their owners know it too.
> 
> Many have speculated these fraudulent guitars are produced in the same factories as 'legit' guitars. That makes sense to me considering there's no re-tooling required - just pump them out and relabel them.
> 
> No need to take my word for it. There are quite a few videos & articles out there of surprised (and grudgingly accepting) guitar techs and luthiers that back up their quality. I'm certainly not endorsing these cheater fakes, but I would be lying if I denied their parallel quality to Chinese Epiphones.


I’m glad your experience with 2 guitars out of the hundreds of thousands produced in that 11 year span turned out well for you.

Here’s the BIG difference. I can lay out 100 Epiphone, 100 Gibson, 100 Fender guitars. I can look up the specs on each one and tell you what it’s made of, what pickups were used, what the woods are, etc. If there’s any discrepancy or problems, I have somewhere to go for redress. Are they all great players with great tone? Probably not.

Now lay out 100 Chinese counterfeits and tell me what they’re made of. I’m happy yours were (maybe?) made out of mahogany, maple, and rosewood. There are many, MANY more examples of ones made out of MDF, old shipping pallets, scraps of wood glued into a slab. If you roll the dice and if you come up snake eyes, you have nowhere to turn.

Congrats on winning the lottery. I’m not a gambler.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

The 1st post was about a counterfeit guitar,not about an asian made guitar that was just as good as a Gibson.
A counterfeit guitar ordered online from the ONLY country in the world that allows counterfeit goods of all kinds to be made within their borders and shipped around the world with the onus on our border checkpoints catching them.
To say that buying one of those goods is wrong is not based on racism or politics, but on recognizing the damage those goods do to legitimate manufacturers that do play by rules.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

NashvilleDeluxe said:


> I’m bothered by what just came in for setup. A customer cruises in with his new Gibson SG and wants the usual going-over and personalized setup. I’ve done many for him.
> As I un-cased his new purchase, my spider senses start tingling. Something’s…off. A phone call confirmed it. This is not a “Gibson SG.” It’s a “Gibsun SG.” It’s a Chinese knockoff that also knocks off about $1500 from the price tag. It’s a decent guitar with stainless steel frets and disposable pickups, but perfectly respectable.
> Or is it? Is it okay to take the decades of goodwill and branding and reputation of a company, and pump out barely legal copies? Is it okay that we, as consumers, support the concept and send money to overseas companies who play fast and loose with copyright and patents?
> I’ll be the first to say that Gibson’s pricing is out of line with its product and quality control these days. I find more issues with Gibson than any other brand out there. But the reputation is theirs to squander. I have an issue with willingly purchasing/supporting what amounts to counterfeit goods.
> ...


I'd be more worried about the materials used to manufacture the product. You would have to preform a series of forensics tests to determine the materials...I have heard that what is called mahogany is not really mahogany.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Zurdo-USA said:


> Nashville, if there is a problem, it is in your head. China, Japan, and South Korea are producing exceptional string instruments that sometimes surpass the originals. At one 5th the price. This prejudice against Asian products has gone on for long enough.



To some degree true.





> Gibson Nasdhville is producing mediocre qualitty instruments


Have you checked all of them? My Gibsons prove you wrong.





> Same with Gretsch and everybody else with their "Custom Shops" and impossible prices for the average player.


Gretsch is owned by Fender.

And my Gretsch is an absolutely great guitar that was very reasonably priced. When I think about hos good it is vs. what I paid, it was exceptional value for the money.




> but then you have Americans selling fake Fender DECALS on eBay. How do you reconcile THAT ?


We don't. They shouldn't be selling them.




> Do you blame the chinese but leave the Joe Blow in California out of the accusations?


Where the fuck do you get the impression that we give those folks a pass?



> I know by personal experience what China is doing. Let's put the example of a Hofner "Beatle" Bass: I purchased a copy of that bass made in China for $250.00 with Case and delivery included in price. I can't be fooled because I have been playing a 1967 Hofner Beatle Bass made in Germany since 1967.
> So what did I find?
> I found an incredibly perfect Beatle Bass reproduction which is not just "perfect" but it RESOLVED the perennIal German-made bass heel separation problem that the German made basses have. The chinese resolved the NECK ANGLE and eliminated the heel problem.
> Do you blame them? I admire them.
> The china Beatle Bass PLAYS BETTER and it was MADE BETTER than my 1967 German Beatle Bass.


Yeah, sure it is.




> I repeat that I do not agree with copying the Gibson Logo, they should have THEIR OWN headstock logo.


Um, they do have their own headstock logo.


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## BEACHBUM (Sep 21, 2010)

hondamatic said:


> I don’t know…
> 
> I’ve played a few lousy stock, recent gibsons. What are the ethics of making a crappy guitar in the USA and selling it to a consumer for $1500?


Misdeeds by one doesn't make the misdeeds of another OK. Making and selling counterfeits is a bad thing. What Gibson is doing to their customers is a bad thing as well. I'm sorry but it's very hard to feel sorry for Gibson or for that matter most of the other soulless amoral corporations I see out there.


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## wraub (May 21, 2021)

A counterfeit has to be a copy, but a copy doesn't have to be a counterfeit.

I have an import singlecut guitar, it doesn't look exactly like a Gib LP and it was a lot cheaper to buy. There are some minor finish issues but overall I'm pleased with it. I got it not because of the likeness, but because it had the specs I wanted at a price I could afford. It has the maker's brand name on it. It works for me to determine if I want "the real thing".


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## NashvilleDeluxe (Feb 7, 2018)

Zurdo-USA said:


> Nashville, if there is a problem, it is in your head. China, Japan, and South Korea are producing exceptional string instruments that sometimes surpass the originals. At one 5th the price. This prejudice against Asian products has gone on for long enough. Gibson Nasdhville is producing mediocre qualitty instruments, Fender USA thinks they are the last coke in the desert. Same with Gretsch and everybody else with their "Custom Shops" and impossible prices for the average player. Enter China and BOOM !! They make you an SG that could be better manufactured than the one in Nashville.
> I do not agree with China making copies that include the Gibson Logo, but then you have Americans selling fake Fender DECALS on eBay. How do you reconcile THAT ? Do you blame the chinese but leave the Joe Blow in California out of the accusations? Justice is FOR ALL.
> I know by personal experience what China is doing. Let's put the example of a Hofner "Beatle" Bass: I purchased a copy of that bass made in China for $250.00 with Case and delivery included in price. I can't be fooled because I have been playing a 1967 Hofner Beatle Bass made in Germany since 1967.
> So what did I find?
> ...


When did I say I was prejudiced against Asian products? I'm a high school teacher and take great pains to be informed about all forms of "bashing," including Asian. Frankly, I don't know what's more offensive...the baseless accusation, or your jumping to conclusions. What I'm pondering is, SHOULD we be buying such items, and ARE items being sold without disclosure? It's just an academic question. 
Two weeks ago, I had the pleasure of working on an Eastman acoustic. It was high quality, through and through, and had their name on the headstock. It was also a good value for a customer who cared less about the name brand and more about having a fine instrument.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Modded “pro” chibsons for $2-2.5k…better than Murphy R9s allegedly. Funny how great things are that people are looking to part with.








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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

silvertonebetty said:


> I don’t really see an issue playing a “tribute” or “knock off” unless they are claiming to be the real deal. There’s so many off shore companies that put slot of us brands to shame . Take Japan they make fantastic guitars and even Korea now makes a killer guitar


Anyplace can make a great guitar. There is no regional or ethnic DNA that makes anyone better at using CNC machines etc. Some hillbilly in Memphis, Kalamazoo, or Nashville, has no inherent skills or knowledge better than anyone else, and I doubt they put much more care and pride in their work than someone in another country who’s family will starve if they lose their job. Made in USA is a begone myth from the mid-20th century.
it just comes down to how much we are willing to pay them to do it.
I feel sorry for Asian companies in a way. We‘ve treated them like whores, then branded them as such for giving us the cheap thrills we demanded of them. What they are actually guilty of, is nonexistent IP rights.


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## silvertonebetty (Jan 4, 2015)

Diablo said:


> Anyplace can make a great guitar. There is no regional or ethnic DNA that makes anyone better at using CNC machines etc. Some hillbilly in Memphis, Kalamazoo, or Nashville, has no inherent skills or knowledge better than anyone else, and I doubt they put much more care and pride in their work than someone in another country who’s family will starve if they lose their job. Made in USA is a begone myth from the mid-20th century.
> it just comes down to how much we are willing to pay them to do it.
> I feel sorry for Asian companies in a way. We‘ve treated them like whores, then branded them as such for giving us the cheap thrills we demanded of them. What they are actually guilty of, is nonexistent IP rights.


That’s true. Look at east man and squire compared to dhgate guitars . And the fact is I like my Korean made guild better than a USA Gibson


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Even my beloved Godin models owe a debt of gratitude and acknowledgement to the F-ing and G-ing corporation’s designs, but at least it has had a business relationship with one of them, and competes fairly in the market. Being Canadian, it helps to absolve my conscience of guilt. I love Godin.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Diablo said:


> Anyplace can make a great guitar. There is no regional or ethnic DNA that makes anyone better at using CNC machines etc. Some hillbilly in Memphis, Kalamazoo, or Nashville, has no inherent skills or knowledge better than anyone else, and I doubt they put much more care and pride in their work than someone in another country who’s family will starve if they lose their job. Made in USA is a begone myth from the mid-20th century.
> it just comes down to how much we are willing to pay them to do it.
> I feel sorry for Asian companies in a way. We‘ve treated them like whores, then branded them as such for giving us the cheap thrills we demanded of them. What they are actually guilty of, is nonexistent IP rights.


Made in USA is not largely a myth. What is a myth, though, is that Fender and Gibson, etc are producing low quality products. Like any company (ESP, Mayones, etc) or manufacturing process, there are going to be a very small percentage of products with issues and this APPEARS, at times, to be worse for larger companies only because they're producing so much more product. However, products made by large well-known companies in the USA (also Japan, etc.) pay qualified employees a desirable wage and invest time, money and effort into quality control and high-end infrastructure (e.g compare a MIJ Ibanez to an indonesian made Ibanez). If you think that this same level of qualification, employee care, quality control and infrastructure exist in a budget-brand Chinese (or elsewhere) company that makes a living off of replicating someone else's work and undercutting their competition through cost reduction (including, in many cases, what amounts to modern day slave labor), you're out of your mind. Now, you may, at the end of the day, still enjoy playing that particular guitar or believe that the increase in "quality" isn't worth the cost. I get it. But, that in no way means that it is of similar quality when compared side-by-side to the "real thing" or thats its ethical (or in some cases legal) to steal/replicate somebody else's work (time/effort/creativity/investment).That being said, though, ofcourse there are international alternatives that produce a quality product (some very unique) and have high-end infrastructure and quality control; but you, largely, will also be paying a premium price which is comparable or higher than the brands that were noted above.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Gibson is a big predator on the scene. There's no denying their heritage and iconic status, but that can't excuse their underhanded practices in retaining that position...sometimes completely superfluously. 
The most recent piece of BS I have seen from them is that claim that prevented Collings from patenting their "Haircut" headstock (sometime around after Bill Collings death). 
It's clear whoever is marketing Gibson doesn't give a shit what they're selling or their heritage, provided they garner the largest chunk of the market. So, though I do love many Gibson guitars and their shapes, I can't bring myself to buy one. 
"Fuck 'em, that's why" - Dave Chapelle 

ps. please forgive any undue verbosity.


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## Diablo (Dec 20, 2007)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> Made in USA is not largely a myth. What is a myth, though, is that Fender and Gibson, etc are producing low quality products. Like any company (ESP, Mayones, etc) or manufacturing process, there are going to be a very small percentage of products with issues and this APPEARS, at times, to be worse for larger companies only because they're producing so much more product. However, products made by large well-known companies in the USA (also Japan, etc.) pay qualified employees a desirable wage and invest time, money and effort into quality control and high-end infrastructure (e.g compare a MIJ Ibanez to an indonesian made Ibanez). If you think that this same level of qualification, employee care, quality control and infrastructure exist in a budget-brand Chinese (or elsewhere) company that makes a living off of replicating someone else's work and undercutting their competition through cost reduction (including, in many cases, what amounts to modern day slave labor), you're out of your mind. Now, you may, at the end of the day, still enjoy playing that particular guitar or believe that the increase in "quality" isn't worth the cost. I get it. But, that in no way means that it is of similar quality when compared side-by-side to the "real thing" or thats its ethical (or in some cases legal) to steal/replicate somebody else's work (time/effort/creativity/investment).That being said, though, ofcourse there are international alternatives that produce a quality product (some very unique) and have high-end infrastructure and quality control; but you, largely, will also be paying a premium price which is comparable or higher than the brands that were noted above.


Misunderstood me completely. What im saying is all things being equal, ie pay for the same materials, pay for the same skilled workers, pay for the same tools, etc and reflect it in the price of the final product then it makes no difference where a guitar is made and there will be no superiority in an american made instrument. That is why expensive guitars from places like Japan, will rival and often surpass those from the USA, but they are not bargains either.
Conversely, get an american to mass produce guitars domestically for $300 and it will be as shit as anything on DHGate or worse.
That is the myth of the American made quality that I was referring to. It has nothing to do with America. Silly patriotism. For what they charge, Gibson would have you believe that their disgruntled factory workers are the Stradivarii of modern guitar making.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Lol, this thread is hilarious.

Counterfeiting is wrong. The rest who cares if there is a legit business or luthier behind the build with their own logo and brand on the goods.

The USA leaves a trail of destruction in many countries after they have used them for what they want and decide to bolt or get thrown out but no one thinks that should make it fair game to counterfeit their currency so that’s a stupid argument to say Gibson deserves to be counterfeited.

I know there are some Gibson fan boys here, I love a good LP and own 5. I literally went through 20 dead planks from Gibson to keep 5 and these are guitars that cost $3-$8000 brand new. I mean planks, intonation issues, finish issues, tuning issues(ya ya just got to set them up right- my luthier been setting up guitars for 40 years but what does he know), garbage and I mean garbage pickups that sound like trucks rolling through the local mud bog.

If someone wants to do it better for cheaper or more expensive and put their name on their stellar work than more power to them.

I ended up getting way more use out of a couple MIJ ESP eclipse that are killer, lighter and super well built but also have a consistency in that quality seems to be much much higher as you don’t run into too many ESP dogs at all.

I bring my Gibsons to rehearsal when I want a sore shoulder and to tune up after every song for a slightly better tone. 

Oh and recording, I love sitting down to play and constantly fight to keep the guitar in a nice position while I’m trying to lay down a track and run the controls on my own. Funnnnnnn! Seriously, nice and light and balanced LP’s literally cost almost $10,000 for the most part. Crazy.


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## warplanegrey (Jan 3, 2007)

It's been said in the thread already, but the issue isn't with knockoffs, it's with counterfeit. When you have a company trying to deceive its customers by selling imitation Gibsons, that's a problem.

I mean, I don't see anyone climbing down Collings' or Hertiage's throat for making Les Pauls and ES-335's - or crapping on Suhr or Tom Anderson for making Strats.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

The argument maybe that those companies legitimately offer something to the table. I'm biased, but I wouldn't take any 335 over my I-35. Suhr and TA cranks out quality instruments too, and it's hard to shake a stick at that. These are all companies that have, in one way or another, honestly built up their pedigree.
Gibson ain't the only one on the scene, but they are the most predatory I know of. So maybe it's a call to take the wind out of their sails and counterfeiters are happy to do that. 
Anyway, you are right though, a counterfeit is a bad thing anyway you slice it. Anyone would feel cheated having expected one thing from their purchase and received what is basically a shoddy piece of tinseled shit. And, I do believe it may be a growing concern as internet transactions are changing the whole relationship of customer/dealer...being able to cut'n'run.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> ...what is basically a shoddy piece of tinseled shit...


That's what the average Chinese crafted Epiphone might be also considering the phonies I played were easily of equal quality & playability.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> The argument maybe that those companies legitimately offer something to the table. I'm biased, but I wouldn't take any 335 over my I-35. Suhr and TA cranks out quality instruments too, and it's hard to shake a stick at that. These are all companies that have, in one way or another, honestly built up their pedigree.
> Gibson ain't the only one on the scene, but they are the most predatory I know of. So maybe it's a call to take the wind out of their sails and counterfeiters are happy to do that.
> Anyway, you are right though, a counterfeit is a bad thing anyway you slice it. Anyone would feel cheated having expected one thing from their purchase and received what is basically a shoddy piece of tinseled shit. And, I do believe it may be a growing concern as internet transactions are changing the whole relationship of customer/dealer...being able to cut'n'run.


So just to clarify, you only see something wrong with companies selling counterfeit goods to unknowing customers? If, for instance, Gibsun sells an SG with the same/extremely similar design, appointments, model name and "Gibsun" branding on the same/similar (Gibson) headstock to someone who knows its a Gibsun, you see no ethical issue with either the company or customer?


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Diablo said:


> Misunderstood me completely. What im saying is all things being equal, ie pay for the same materials, pay for the same skilled workers, pay for the same tools, etc and reflect it in the price of the final product then it makes no difference where a guitar is made and there will be no superiority in an american made instrument. That is why expensive guitars from places like Japan, will rival and often surpass those from the USA, but they are not bargains either.
> Conversely, get an american to mass produce guitars domestically for $300 and it will be as shit as anything on DHGate or worse.
> That is the myth of the American made quality that I was referring to. It has nothing to do with America. Silly patriotism. For what they charge, Gibson would have you believe that their disgruntled factory workers are the Stradivarii of modern guitar making.


I understand what you're saying. What I'm saying is that this quality control, employee care and infrastructure only exists for certain companies and/or in select places in the world and you're, for the most part, going to be charged accordingly.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> So just to clarify, you only see something wrong with companies selling counterfeit goods to unknowing customers? If, for instance, Gibsun sells an SG with the same/extremely similar design, appointments, model name and "Gibsun" branding on the same/similar headstock to someone who knows its a Gibsun, you see no ethical issue with either the company or customer?


In the case of Gibson and, if like you said, the customer is informed and willing, that's their prerogative. I am not saying that such a practice is inconsequential but, likewise Gibson's footprint is considerable and they lead not by example but by force. I'm not a laissez faire type of cat; I think one should succeed on the quality of their work and not the size of their empire.
But I can easily flick off these rose-tinted glasses, and say it's just not that cut-n-dry. Financial success is like a runaway train, it happens, but you can never buy your own hype without deluding yourself. Gibson needs to take their meds and focus on making their guitars instead of entrusting themselves to the marketing machine/legal system. Walk into any guitar shop today, you're gonna see a huge chunk of the stock are brand spanking new Gibson products. The guys are pushers, and if they nevermind their legacy and heritage, I think it's up to other companies to improve on that because that is the gap in the market they have to fill....gibson has taken pretty much everything else away.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> In the case of Gibson and, if like you said, the customer is informed and willing, that's their prerogative. I am not saying that such a practice is inconsequential but, likewise Gibson's footprint is considerable and they lead not by example but by force. I'm not a laissez faire type of cat; I think one should succeed on the quality of their work and not the size of their empire.


I mean, we could argue the legalities/justifications of the lawsuits and whether its a "good" brand, but that would be its own entire thread and largely based on personal taste. However, do you see the action of taking someone else's design, appointments, model name and, essentially, brand/headstock and selling it without any approval or compensation to the originating company unethical? Say if it were ESP or some other brand that you "liked"?


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> This, largely, sounds like personal taste in the type of instrument you're looking for.
> 
> I mean, we could argue the legalities/justifications of the lawsuits and whether its a "good" brand, but that would be its own entire thread and largely based on personal taste. However, do you see the action of taking someone else's design, appointments, model name and, essentially, brand/headstock and selling it without any approval or compensation to the originating company unethical? Say if it were ESP or some other brand that you "liked"?


Well this is driving the needle back to overt counterfeiting...someone's bound to get hurt. I personally don't want that, but this to me is a philosophical quandary. In the context of two or more opposing forces; do you fight to kill? or do you fight to survive? Is it ever good that someone be decimated off the map? 
"I thought this was 'Murica"...freedom and autonomy have to be preserved in order to create high quality goods, provided materials are accessible. If ESP or any brand was making it legitimately difficult for other companies to create and sell products of their own, then the rules of the game change. It's neither good nor fair as an industry standard, but all is fair in love and war idn't it?


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> Well this is driving the needle back to overt counterfeiting...someone's bound to get hurt. I personally don't want that, but this to me is a philosophical quandary. In the context of two or more opposing forces; do you fight to kill? or do you fight to survive? Is it ever good that someone be decimated off the map?
> "I thought this was 'Murica"...freedom and autonomy have to be preserved in order to create high quality goods, provided materials are accessible. If ESP or any brand was making it legitimately difficult for other companies to create and sell products of their own, then the rules of the game change. It's neither good nor fair as an industry standard, but all is fair in love and war idn't it?


Ok, so the acts ethical status is dependant on whether you like the brand or not or whether your perception of their actions separate from this instance is positive or negative? The act in and of itself is not ethical or unethical?

All companies central goal is profit and they protect their brands (as they should) to various extents. Sometimes they're successful, sometimes they're unsuccessful and sometimes they're unwilling/unable.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> Ok, so the acts ethical status is dependant on whether you like the brand or not or whether your perception of their actions separate from this instance is positive or negative? The act in and of itself is not ethical or unethical?
> 
> All companies central goal is profit and they protect their brands (as they should) to various extents. Sometimes they're successful, sometimes they're unsuccessful and sometimes they're unwilling/unable.


I reasonably gather that the act is a measured response, but I don't excuse the ethics. 
I don't think you can forgo ethics either way, but I do mean that the rules of engagement start to change...it's like one side is content to solve their problems through arm-wrestling and the other side likes to drop mustard gas...well that's clearly gonna change the landscape, the measured response to such an act is what exactly? If the "various extents" are egregious what's stopping them from going further each time? 
Personally, I count on my inner voice to guide me about these things, that I'm making a decent decision. And so, I think the onus is on us to try to understand the landscape in which these actions proliferate before we outright smother the life out of the 'actors'. Don't excuse the ethics if the system is broken or somehow unfair, especially if you aim to support it in one way or another. Nothing is going to make a purchasing decision easier for you, you still have to compromise between want and need. None of this is set in stone. I hope you see that I am entertaining, and entertained by, this question.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> Is it ever good that someone be decimated off the map?


Yes. Counterfeiters _should_ be decimated off the map.



Mutant_Guitar said:


> If ESP or any brand was making it legitimately difficult for other companies to create and sell products of their own, then the rules of the game change.


No. If another company started building counterfeits of ESP guitars with ESP on the headstock, I would expect them to go after them.
Also, if another company started building exact copies of proprietary ESP designs with another name on the headstock, I would also expect them to go after them.

Gibson has their faults, but wanting to protect their designs doesn’t make them the bad guy.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

2manyGuitars said:


> Yes. Counterfeiters _should_ be decimated off the map.
> 
> 
> No. If another company started building counterfeits of ESP guitars with ESP on the headstock, I would expect them to go after them.
> ...


Good for you. Nice and easy.
I was responding in kind to Mike, assuming the differences were near negligible. A little further back you would see that I don't condone counterfeiting. I don't think you should have to do that if you have the wherewithal to build a guitar. But if Gibson wants to make the claim that a visibly different headstock (in my mind I'm thinking of that "haircut" headstock Collings has) is cutting into their profit margins, I think that's an egregious overstep. It's highly unnecessary especially if you consider their heritage as a point of value or pride. This is not some blanket statement or "if the glove fits" kind of argument, this is an ongoing battle...but it's not getting any better for the customer. Whoever wants to serve the customer best wins the battle, to me. Markets be damned.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Also, it's fallacious to assume that "all they want to do is protect their designs"...it ignores the fact that they _DO_ prevent other brands from flourishing.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Gibson is just one of many big companies dealing with this problem.









US small businesses are fighting an uphill battle against counterfeiters in China: 'It's like whack-a-mole'


While the discussion about protecting IP has focused on big tech companies, small businesses are fighting an uphill battle with limited resources to protect their patents and trademarks in China.




www.google.com





And not just big name companies or new products. Even seemingly simple things you would think were not worth counterfeiting...









5 Ways to Spot A Counterfeit Plato 170 Shear Cutter Before You Buy Them


The unfortunate truth about Amazon, eBay, Alibaba, and other web retailers, is they are rife with counterfeit products. Scrolling through Amazon listings for “Plato 170”, we spotted 13 fake Plato cutters on the first page! Rest assured that we are taking the appropriate actions to remove these...




www.techspray.com





I'm currently trying to find out if the great bargain Makita router I got last week, on kijiji NIB never used, is in fact a counterfeit tool. This is new to me but Makita and other tool makers have been dealing with this problem for years...




__





Are there fake Makita drills out there? - Fine Homebuilding


Was at a sale today and looked at a corded 3/8 drill labeled Makita but it just did not look right. Color and feel of the plastic was off. Case […]




www.finehomebuilding.com


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Well, pray tell how does this happen? I'm seriously curious about your perspective.
Where are the OEM centered.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> I reasonably gather that the act is a measured response, but I don't excuse the ethics.
> I don't think you can forgo ethics either way, but I do mean that the rules of engagement start to change...it's like one side is content to solve their problems through arm-wrestling and the other side likes to drop mustard gas...well that's clearly gonna change the landscape, the measured response to such an act is what exactly? If the "various extents" are egregious what's stopping them from going further each time?
> Personally, I count on my inner voice to guide me about these things, that I'm making a decent decision. And so, I think the onus is on us to try to understand the landscape in which these actions proliferate before we outright smother the life out of the 'actors'. Don't excuse the ethics if the system is broken or somehow unfair, especially if you aim to support it in one way or another. Nothing is going to make a purchasing decision easier for you, you still have to compromise between want and need. None of this is set in stone. I hope you see that I am entertaining, and entertained by, this question.


All of this is want and not need. Were talking about hobbie instruments. Also, all of this is in good fun.

To me, any company is justified in protecting their brand to the extent that its legally justifiable and every company is going to be different. Brands like Gibson and Fender are going to be the victims of counterfeiting and legally questionable knock-offs more so than almost any other guitar brand (they were among the pioneers and popularizers) and, likely, suffered more from these practices than just about anyone else. Like any company, they've experienced financial ups and downs over the years and aren't immune from the consequences of these practices. At the end of the day, I ask myself "Is this company trying to sell me a Fender Stratocaster/Telecaster/etc or Gibson Les Paul/SG/etc or whatever other existing instrument, or are they selling me their own unique item?" with a given model (I dont think its necessary for the customer to be "duped"). If they're trying to sell me what is essentially another companies brand/likeness/or whatever you want to say, I personally wouldn't purchase that item. I think creativity/design/effort/investment/brand is and should be worth something and I think that holds true in pretty much any sector. Think about the OPs original post and apply it to music. If someone created a song that had the same structure/rhythm and very similar lyrics to an existing song, and the name of the song was the same and the name of the artist was one letter different, would you be ok with it? I would not, but I understand that this will be very personal and differ from person to person.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> All of this is want and not need. Were talking about hobbie instruments. Also, all of this is in good fun.
> 
> To me, any company is justified in protecting their brand to the extent that its legally justifiable and every company is going to be different. Brands like Gibson and Fender are going to be the victims of counterfeiting and legally questionable knock-offs more so than almost any other guitar brand (they were among the pioneers and popularizers) and, likely, suffered more from these practices than just about anyone else. Like any company, they've experienced financial ups and downs over the years and aren't immune from the consequences of these practices. At the end of the day, I ask myself "Is this company trying to sell me a Fender Stratocaster/Telecaster/etc or Gibson Les Paul/SG/etc or whatever other existing instrument, or are they selling me their own unique item?" with a given model (I dont think its necessary for the customer to be "duped"). If they're trying to sell me what is essentially another companies brand/likeness/or whatever you want to say, I personally wouldn't purchase that item. I think creativity/design/effort/investment/brand is and should be worth something and I think that holds true in pretty much any sector. Think about the OPs original post and apply it to music. If someone created a song that had the same structure/rhythm and very similar lyrics to an existing song, and the name of the song was the same and the name of the artist was one letter different, would you be ok with it? I would not, but I understand that this will be very personal and differ from person to person.


It's my ideal speaking here, but everything you accrue is a mix of want and need, it's a compromise/balance. If it was single-ended, well people wouldn't be hanging on to so much _stuff_ and be looking for more at the same time. It's duplicitous...much like the industry we're talking about.
Isn't it foolish to assume that laws treat everybody equally? We know that's just not true anywhere on this planet. And so in talking about corporate "suffering":
They've suffered in direct proportion to the squeeze they put on customers. They offshore their business for profit margins and then use the law stateside to prevent anyone "cutting-in". Well that's a two way street. They want to play fast and loose halfway across the world on someone else's home turf, that someone's gonna take from their coffers. The reason they can afford to litigate and outright block their peers _is_ because they are raking it in with the import market.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

But in terms of creativity and aesthetics, I believe that is what a company in this field should strive for. Something new, and hopefully something better. Is there an absolute imperative to counterfeiting or knocking off an instrument/ a song...no, fucking no...I wouldn't support it. But I do understand it. And HELL NO, I don't take any pleasure from the suffering of others, but we shouldn't be ignorant of the suffering caused by the walking giants rummaging the planet for their fortunes. They have everything to do with the misfortunes incurred to them because they make a fortune doing it, they set the bar. I think as westerners we are just really dumb to this concept that everything is consequentially tied together all around this little world; you can't get away without consequence....capitalism doesn't "just work", if the capital ain't coming from you and me, it's coming from someone else and it would seem the ethos is the further away the better, it's easier to trick 'em. They don't care or understand we're calling them savages, they're just happy to be working. Remember it just takes one swinging dick to fuck it all up for everybody.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> It's my ideal speaking here, but everything you accrue is a mix of want and need, it's a compromise/balance. If it was single-ended, well people wouldn't be hanging on to so much _stuff_ and be looking for more at the same time. It's duplicitous...much like the industry we're talking about.
> Isn't it foolish to assume that laws treat everybody equally? We know that's just not true anywhere on this planet. And so in talking about corporate "suffering":
> They've suffered in direct proportion to the squeeze they put on customers. They offshore their business for profit margins and then use the law stateside to prevent anyone "cutting-in". Well that's a two way street. They want to play fast and loose halfway across the world on someone else's home turf, that someone's gonna take from their coffers. The reason they can afford to litigate and outright block their peers _is_ because they are raking it in with the import market.


Youre getting a little philosophically wordy for me here lol There are things that are definitively a need, like the necessities of life (food, water, shelter, etc), and things that are definitively a want (a hobbie instrument, sports car, etc). I dont think the law has or was ever intended to treat everyone/everything equally in terms of completely equal application regardless of context. Its meant to be reasonably and proportionally applied with a full understanding of the circumstances (this will be unique for different people and companies). As was discussed in earlier posts, Gibsons "offshoring" or international acquisitions were, at least in part, due to having to compete with an increasing stream of counterfeit and knock-off guitars which were cutting into their profits and that didn't fully exist previously. Just because they're a large company doesn't mean that they've been financially successful all throughout their history or even their recent history. Furthermore, as was also discussed in previous posts, its not fiscally possible for almost any company to litigate any and every person/company who has legally wronged them, as theres some companies that aren't worth litigating (Gibsun will likely not exist long enough to see the conclusion of a prosecution and, even if they did, likely won't be able to cover Gibsons legal costs and/or damages), some issues that are worth litigating that you will win and some issues that are worth litigating that you, inevitably, lose (see the PRS lawsuit where the initial judge ruled in Gibsons favor, only to be overturned by another judge on appeal).


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> But in terms of creativity and aesthetics, I believe that is what a company in this field should strive for. Something new, and hopefully something better. Is there an absolute imperative to counterfeiting or knocking off an instrument/ a song...no, fucking no...I wouldn't support it. But I do understand it. And HELL NO, I don't take any pleasure from the suffering of others, but we shouldn't be ignorant of the suffering caused by the walking giants rummaging the planet for their fortunes. They have everything to do with the misfortunes incurred to them because they make a fortune doing it, they set the bar. I think as westerners we are just really dumb to this concept that everything is consequentially tied together all around this little world; you can't get away without consequence....capitalism doesn't "just work", if the capital ain't coming from you and me, it's coming from someone else and it would seem the ethos is the further away the better, it's easier to trick 'em. They don't care or understand we're calling them savages, they're just happy to be working. Remember it just takes one swinging dick to fuck it all up for everybody.


Like with anything or anyone, large companies contribute alot to the world but also bring about some negative outcomes. Like the people who work there, they're neither wholly good or wholly bad. They engage in philanthropy, produce products that better peoples lives and employ alot of people (locally and abroad). They also make decisions that harm the environment, cause income inequalities, etc.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

You're arguing chicken and the egg. What came first, Gibson going offshore to make cheaper gear and bringing it back and stamping it? or people privately purchasing counterfeit guitars in droves? One of these is going to be a considerably larger blip on the radar, I think I know which one. Not much marketability from a region of the world that knows nothing about our language or how to advertise to us...in its time and place. Can't hide much these days though












also, with the considerable cultural difference...The individualism that we so pride. I may argue that if some of us don't get to play the instrument we _love_, we will suffer no small amount of pain psychical or otherwise. Isn't the fulfilment of love a human need? I mean, I don't have to be happy, but it sure makes me want to go on for a while longer, how about you?


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Which company is consistently pumping out 10-11 pound overpriced boat anchors with muddy pickups and finish issues in effort to knock off the Gibson Les Paul?


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> Like with anything or anyone, large companies contribute alot to the world but also bring about some negative outcomes. Like the people who work there, they're neither wholly good or wholly bad. They engage in philanthropy, produce products that better peoples lives and employ alot of people (locally and abroad). They also make decisions that harm the environment, cause income inequalities, etc.


Yeah, but also a big NO...they just don't "contribute". They invest, but they don't invest in you or me. It's a law of diminishing returns; its less and less for you, not more and more. It'll only be more if they somehow discover a new way to trick you. And they're real pissed off that someone might be better at it than they are. I would like to know how many counterfeits actually come from their own factories, and are imported with the help of their own brokers, and how large their cut is in this industry, and if they are able to also make money from damages incurred....there's just no end to the money-making machine.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> You're arguing chicken and the egg. What came first, Gibson going offshore to make cheaper gear and bringing it back and stamping it? or people privately purchasing counterfeit guitars in droves? One of these is going to be a considerably larger blip on the radar, I think I know which one. Not much marketability from a region of the world that knows nothing about our language or how to advertise to us...in its time and place. Can't hide much these days though
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I mean, we know what came first. Counterfeit and knockoff guitars. Which is the larger blip? All the money lost on people buying a les paul knockoff or counterfeit. If fulfillment of human love a need? No


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Why don’t we talk about how PRS are severely overpriced knock offs and don’t live up to the hype unless you want internet clout and one upmanship


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

tdotrob said:


> Which company is consistently pumping out 10-11 pound overpriced boat anchors with muddy pickups and finish issues in effort to knock off the Gibson Les Paul?


What you've been describing is your perception based on personal preference with regards to musical instruments. But the answer to your question is 'alot'.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> I mean, we know what came first. Counterfeit and knockoff guitars.


What you've been describing is your perception based on personal preference with regards to musical instruments.


Mike_Blaszk said:


> Which is the larger blip? All the money lost on people buying a les paul knockoff or counterfeit.


What you've been describing is your perception based on personal preference with regards to musical instruments.


Mike_Blaszk said:


> If fulfillment of human love a need? No


Mr. Zuckerberg, is that you?


----------



## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> Yeah, but also a big NO...they just don't "contribute". They invest, but they don't invest in you or me. It's a law of diminishing returns; its less and less for you, not more and more. It'll only be more if they somehow discover a new way to trick you. And they're real pissed off that someone might be better at it than they are. I would like to know how many counterfeits actually come from their own factories, and are imported with the help of their own brokers, and how large their cut is in this industry, and if they are able to also make money from damages incurred....there's just no end to the money-making machine.


I mean, this is all your own personal speculation and assumption based on looking at a particular segment of society through a negative, unfalsifiable perspective. Human reality is complex and doesn't fall within a good/bad dichotomy. These companies are run by people and not some Cthulu-like creature with a penchant for world apocalypse.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> What you've been describing is your perception based on personal preference with regards to musical instruments.
> 
> What you've been describing is your perception based on personal preference with regards to musical instruments.
> 
> Mr. Zuckerberg, is that you?


Ok. You've completely lost me now lol


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> What you've been describing is your perception based on personal preference with regards to musical instruments. But the answer to your question is 'alot'.


I actually really like Gibson Les Pauls. They are my favourite guitar. But I don’t believe all single cuts are knockoffs. And I do believe Gibson LP’s are super over priced for what you get which makes room for other builders to make their versions of single cuts which people buy cause they have features that make up for what people don’t like about Les Pauls.

That’s what business is about. 

I also worked in Sales and Manufacturing and have been to China in factories where they are making the same product for multiple brands under the same roof using the same materials and labelling them with different brands and shipping them out the same door.

People forget that China wouldn’t be where they are now if these mega CORPORATIONS didn’t go there and shop in order to MAXIMIZE profit in effort to cheat you, the consumer. It was never about making sure WE get more for our dollar.

End thread/


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> I mean, this is all your own personal speculation and assumption based on looking at a particular segment of society through a negative, unfalsifiable perspective. Human reality is complex and doesn't fall within a good/bad dichotomy. These companies are run by people and not some Cthulu-like creature with a penchant for world apocalypse.


The law of diminishing returns is not a Lovecraftian myth. And a predatory relationship, no matter how ostensibly beneficial to select parties, is not a good thing. It's not a good/bad dichotomy, you're right. It's _ALL BAD_, now you can step in shit and call it a hershey bar, but we all know what the reality is.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> Ok. You've completely lost me now lol


What I mean is there is absolutely no way for you to assure that's the case. What we do know is how these companies make money by outsourcing and have been doing it long before guitars landed in our hillbilly laps from the heavens on high by Gibson...that angel! They do what works well, and has been working well in other industries. How much further do we have to go? Do we have to start talking about the age of enlightenment? the creation of the middle class?


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

tdotrob said:


> I actually really like Gibson Les Pauls. They are my favourite guitar. But I don’t believe all single cuts are knockoffs. And I do believe Gibson LP’s are super over priced for what you get which makes room for other builders to make their versions of single cuts which people buy cause they have features that make up for what people don’t like about Les Pauls.
> 
> That’s what business is about.
> 
> ...


Noone is arguing that all single cuts are Les Paul knock-offs. I agree that large corporations have done this to various extents, but so have smaller businesses and individual consumers. So, for me, I do my best nowadays to not support such activities or products to the extent that I can (I didn't always feel this way).


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> Noone is arguing that all single cuts are Les Paul knock-offs. I agree that large corporations have done this to various extents, but so have smaller businesses and individual consumers. So, for me, I do my best nowadays to not support such activities or products to the extent that I can (i didn't always feel this way).


How do you do that? Spend a higher percentage of your income on products made locally that are often made with cheaper Chinese parts than their off shore made counterparts using better parts that last longer but using cheaper labour?


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> The law of diminishing returns is not a Lovecraftian myth. And a predatory relationship, no matter how ostensibly beneficial to select parties, is not a good thing. It's not a good/bad dichotomy, you're right. It's _ALL BAD_, now you can step in shit and call it a hershey bar, but we all know what the reality is.


Ok. If its a mutually beneficial relationship entered into voluntarily, how is it predatory? By the good/bad dichotomy I mean human behavior is never wholly good or wholly bad. No corporation is engaging in any activity to be solely evil and there are positive and negative results from their activities.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> What I mean is there is absolutely no way for you to assure that's the case. What we do know is how these companies make money by outsourcing and have been doing it long before guitars landed in our hillbilly laps from the heavens on high by Gibson...that angel! They do what works well, and has been working well in other industries. How much further do we have to go? Do we have to start talking about the age of enlightenment? the creation of the middle class?


What?


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> Noone is arguing that all single cuts are Les Paul knock-offs. I agree that large corporations have done this to various extents, but so have smaller businesses and individual consumers. So, for me, I do my best nowadays to not support such activities or products to the extent that I can (I didn't always feel this way).


There it is, to what extent can you compare the likes of a private purchase to that of an industry _TITAN_? A mom'n'pop that stocks 50-100 guitars, to the veritable conveyor belt corporation we are discussing...you're just being deliberately cruel now.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> What?


You were doing so well, now I am not so sure. Perhaps the morning will find you better.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

tdotrob said:


> How do you do that? Spend a higher percentage of your income on products made locally that are often made with cheaper Chinese parts than their off shore made counterparts using better parts that last longer but using cheaper labour?


I research the product that I want and see where its made and what components are used, where possible. There are some products where you have no choice and many others where you do.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> There it is, to what extent can you compare the likes of a private purchase to that of an industry _TITAN_? A mom'n'pop that stocks 50-100 guitars, to the veritable conveyor belt corporation we are discussing...you're just being deliberately cruel now.


Ok I think I understand what you're saying. Your private purchase and that of the smaller company fuels the domestic and international corporation (whatever size it is). Also, you and the smaller business are essentially doing what the corporation is doing, but on a smaller scale.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> None of this is making any sense anymore.


I am alluding to material scarcity, and unsustainable growth. Both of which are offset by dishonest marketing...which is a misnomer because marketing is never honest.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> Am I the only one who has no idea what this person is going on about?


Sir if you cannot keep up, I would advise you to just check out. There's no need to refer to me in the 3rd person when we've been engaging each other in argument, and doing just fine at that. Now if you're looking for an advocate, I am not trying to work against you. This is mettle to mettle. If I am going over your head, tell me. I'll slow it down. But I am human, and I am getting tired too.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> I research the product that I want and see where its made and what components are used, where possible. There are some products where you have no choice and many others where you do.


That makes sense. I suppose everyone who isn’t uber rich and frivolous with spending does that to an extent.

I have no qualms about where something is made but I research to understand best quality for the best price so maybe not always the cheapest and sometimes the most expensive but I’ll pay 2x as much for something if it will last 5x longer no matter where it is made.

Chinese peasants need to work and make money and feed their families just the same as Canadian peasants.

Truth is the boomers that want everyone to shut up and toe the old guard line these days are the same assholes who sold us out to overseas manufacturing years ago and are the real cause of the inflation and economic wars you see today.

They point the finger at the big red machine now and distract with tales of immigrants coming to take your job and racist ******** buy it cause they can’t comprehend that the same pushing that narrative either sold or allowed their carrot dangling masters to sell those jobs to the lowest bidder in the first place and sat by and let them give our middle class to foreign countries. The same countries they vilify and scapegoat now.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> Sir if you cannot keep up, I would advise you to just check out. There's no need to refer to me in the 3rd person when we've been engaging each other in argument, and doing just fine at that. Now if you're looking for an advocate, I am not trying to work against you. This is mettle to mettle. If I am going over your head, tell me. I'll slow it down. But I am human, and I am getting tired too.


I think I've deciphered some of it. I've gone back and responded to some of the posts.


----------



## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> I am alluding to material scarcity, and unsustainable growth. Both of which are offset by dishonest marketing...which is a misnomer because marketing is never honest.


Not all marketing is dishonest, not all materials are scarce and not all growth is unsustainable.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> I think I've deciphered some of it. I've gone back and responded to some of the posts.


the ol' college try. I appreciate it, but you're still missing the point. We do not have to purchase anything, but they _have_ to sell their quota. They market their products over and above customer demand. There is a factor of market visibility, iconography, and upseller bullshit that is just way out of reach of any but the top3 brands. 
You will see their products and be exposed to their marketing long before you can rationally choose to buy or not. If advertising didn't work, why would they entrust their image and product to marketing firms who have no sentimentality or care for the history of the company, the products that they make, the customer base that validates their quality.
It's like this; the bigger the house, the less inclined you are to clean it by yourself, the more you entrust the services of a third party organization to come and do the clean-up. Do they care about your shit? NO, their job is to clean house. You have to relinquish some ownership/solidarity in part because you have to entrust someone else to do what you should have done. It's a job, sir. And you're being jobbed.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> Sir if you cannot keep up, I would advise you to just check out. There's no need to refer to me in the 3rd person when we've been engaging each other in argument, and doing just fine at that. Now if you're looking for an advocate, I am not trying to work against you. This is mettle to mettle. If I am going over your head, tell me. I'll slow it down. But I am human, and I am getting tired too.


Listen man. Maybe I'm not on your intellectual level or something, but some of your responses are extremely wordy amd philosophically ambiguous and I have trouble following when you get to talking about Hershey bars, etc. Regardless, I think were venturing into a topic which runs beyond the scope of this thread. We're debating capitalism at this point.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> Not all marketing is dishonest, not all materials are scarce and not all growth is unsustainable.


not all knockoffs are counterfeits. Some counterfeits are actual Gibson. Theyve been knocking themselves off.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> the ol' college try. I appreciate it, but you're still missing the point. We do not have to purchase anything, but they _have_ to sell their quota. They market their products over and above customer demand. There is a factor of market visibility, iconography, and upseller bullshit that is just way out of reach of any but the top3 brands.
> You will see their products and be exposed to their marketing long before you can rationally choose to buy or not. If advertising didn't work, why would they entrust their image and product to marketing firms who have no sentimentality or care for the history of the company, the products that they make, the customer base that validates their quality.
> It's like this; the bigger the house, the less inclined you are to clean it by yourself, the more you entrust the services of a third party organization to come and do the clean-up. Do they care about your shit? NO, their job is to clean house. You have to relinquish some ownership/solidarity in part because you have to entrust someone else to do what you should have done. It's a job, sir. And you're being jobbed.


You don't have to participate in any of it and can choose to have your opinion voiced by where you spend your dollar.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> Listen man. Maybe I'm not on your intellectual level or something, but some of your responses are extremely wordy amd philosophically ambiguous and I have trouble following when you get to talking about Hershey bars, etc. Regardless, I think were venturing into a topic which runs beyond the scope of this thread. We're debating capitalism at this point.


There's no point in being reductive. We're talking about products that # in the millions, this is absolutely ball and chain to capitalism and thereby democracy.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> not all knockoffs are counterfeits. Some counterfeits are actual Gibson. Theyve been knocking themselves off.


Noones arguing that all knockoffs are counterfeits. Gibson can do what it wants with its own product.


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## tdotrob (Feb 24, 2019)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> There's no point in being reductive. We're talking about products that # in the millions, this is absolutely ball and chain to capitalism and thereby democracy.


Capitmocracy where even votes are bought and sold.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> You don't have to participate in any of it and can choose to have your opinion voiced by where you spend your dollar.


my dollar ain't louder than theirs, especially in the court of law. How does this not make sense to you? For example, if the largest investor and purchaser of a given product makes new demands of an industry such as logging or farming...you better believe we will all be eating that produce, and we will all be sitting at a plywood desk. Ignorance of the finiteness of this planet and its resources is ignorance of the utmost.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

tdotrob said:


> Capitmocracy where even votes are bought and sold.


I'm flummoxed. I really don't know if _winning_ an argument is worth burying your head so far in the sand. But, Mike show us how deep you can go!


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> Noones arguing that all knockoffs are counterfeits. Gibson can do what it wants with its own product.


So can Collings, PRS, Fender, Chibsun, Gibsun, "Gooble Gobble one of us one of us one of us".


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> There's no point in being reductive. We're talking about products that # in the millions, this is absolutely ball and chain to capitalism and thereby democracy.


You think this is the intention of the OP when he posted this thread in a guitar forum?


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> So can Collings, PRS, Fender, Chibsun, Gibsun, "Gooble Gobble one of us one of us one of us".


So your stance is that Gibsuns SG is an ethical and unstolen product?


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> my dollar ain't louder than theirs, especially in the court of law. How does this not make sense to you? For example, if the largest investor and purchaser of a given product makes new demands of an industry such as logging or farming...you better believe we will all be eating that produce, and we will all be sitting at a plywood desk. Ignorance of the finiteness of this planet and its resources is ignorance of the utmost.


Yes you're right. Everyone that disagrees with you is an idiot.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> You think this is the intention of the OP when he posted this thread in a guitar forum?


was his intention for everybody to agree with him? 
Doesn't the headstock clearly say "Gibsun"? It's a catch 22. Gibson wants to come out on top of the chaos and havoc they created. Laws have helped them at the least to slow other companies down, and their reputation is not much worse for wear. It's a shame the industry is so toxic, maybe we should all stop buying shit


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> Yes you're right. Everyone that disagrees with you is an idiot.


That's not it, you're just being ignorant that purchase power is relative to the dollar, and it communicates power. Power that you and me and anyone you lay eyes on will never ever have. There's no little guy in the equation taking his lumps and making tiffany cufflinks out of them. They just get decimated. In this case, it's across the ocean so tough for Gibson, really. I won't cry for them.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> So your stance is that Gibsuns SG is an ethical and unstolen product?


my stance is, once again, the whole production is unethical. It's a runaway market, it's not sustainable enough for 1 giant let alone 3 or 5.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

QUOTE="Mutant_Guitar, post: 2915711, member: 38188"]
That's not it, you're just being ignorant that purchase power is relative to the dollar, and it communicates power. Power that you and me and anyone you lay eyes on will never ever have. There's no little guy in the equation taking his lumps and making tiffany cufflinks out of them. They just get decimated. In this case, it's across the ocean so tough for Gibson, really. I won't cry for them.
[/QUOTE]
You're right. I'm stupid for not adopting your anti-capitalism perspective. There is only one true and correct paradigm.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> my stance is, once again, the whole production is unethical. It's a runaway market, it's not sustainable enough for 1 giant let alone 3 or 5.


Gotcha.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> You're right. I'm stupid for not adopting your anti-capitalism perspective. There is only one true and correct paradigm.


You know, like I said, I am tired. It's a really interesting discussion for me, which is why I'm still here. I'm not here to call you an idiot, I'm not here to call you names. 
I'm just feeling a little run down. But I got the impression that you wanted to get to the bottom of your own convictions, I would hope anyhow. if that's not the case we really don't have to continue, cause it seems now we're going into the red and I'm just not fit for much more of this back and forth.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> You know, like I said, I am tired. It's a really interesting discussion for me, which is why I'm still here. I'm not here to call you an idiot, I'm not here to call you names.
> I'm just feeling a little run down. But I got the impression that you wanted to get to the bottom of your own convictions, I would hope anyhow. if that's not the case we really don't have to continue, cause it seems now we're going into the red and I'm just not fit for much more of this back and forth.


Noone will ever "get to the bottom" of a discussion thats older than you and I (especially in an online forum). Like all of this, it comes down to personal belief and neither of us will convince the other or anyone else out of their perspective.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

It's not about some hard binary switch of perspectives, it's about enlightening one another. If mutual respect cannot be had, than at least the benefit of a doubt that you're speaking to a thinking+feeling person. Shit, I wouldn't undermine the intelligence of a gnat....but that's just like my opinion man.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Anyway, goodnight Mike. I'm off to dream about that big ol' Gibson factory in the sky, and every one they make is a dime, and costs a dime. And we can laugh and sing and commune with our Chinese, and Muslim, and African, and South American, and native, and Antipodal brothers and sisters all strumming a big ol' C chord. You're there, and I'm there too, and we're leading the numberless crowd in song and dance...all legally distinct, but oh so catchy.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> It's not about some hard binary switch of perspectives, it's about enlightening one another. If mutual respect cannot be had, than at least the benefit of a doubt that you're speaking to a thinking+feeling person. Shit, I wouldn't undermine the intelligence of a gnat....but that's just like my opinion man.


You haven't done or tried to do any of those things. I may have extreme difficulty deciphering what it is that youre trying to say exactly based on the language that you're using (and maybe that's offensive to you), but you've been intentionally disrespectful multiple times in forwarding your "capitalism and corporations are all 100% evil" binary and by claiming that anybody that doesn't share or buy into this narrative is ignorant. So if were at an impasse, which we naturally and predictably are, why continue down a route that obviously strays from the original intention of the OP. I believe that the item identified by the OP and items like it are unethical for the reasons provided, regardless of the system that it exists within or of the originator. You believe that it and the entire system surrounding it is unethical, thus making it justifiable, at least in certain circumstances.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

Holy f**k, what a bunch of pseudo intellectualism going on here.


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

zztomato said:


> Holy f**k, what a bunch of pseudo intellectualism going on here.


Lol


----------



## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> You haven't done or tried to do any of those things. I may have extreme difficulty deciphering what it is that youre trying to say exactly based on the language that you're using (and maybe that's offensive to you), but you've been intentionally disrespectful multiple times in forwarding your "capitalism and corporations are all 100% evil" binary and by claiming that anybody that doesn't share or buy into this narrative is ignorant. So if were at an impasse, which we naturally and predictably are, why continue down a route that obviously strays from the original intention of the OP. I believe that the item identified by the OP and items like it are unethical for the reasons provided, regardless of the system that it exists within or of the originator. You believe that it and the entire system surrounding it is unethical, thus making it justifiable, at least in certain circumstances.


Sir, it seems you've been genuinely offended at some point by my turn of phrase. I apologize. I have no aims to convince you or anyone of my perspectives. However by simply couching my argument in terms of, as you said, ""capitalism and corporations are all 100% evil" binary", you _are_ choosing to be ignorant and reductive. If you want to fall back to OP; the question of ethics is endemic to our species, it does not exist in a vacuum or in a state of detachment because people do not exist in a vacuum or in a state of detachment.
Music is a perfect example because in its many forms it is so obviously interrelated and bound by observable rules and parameters; there is absolutely nothing "new" that can be had without attributing or honouring its forbearers. If you want to take exception and suggest that there are some unique _snowflakes_, than I urge you to consider that bias. 
Don't give up before you try, cause I'm trying. If you don't want to, then: gtfo my obstacle course.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Yeah, this thread has quickly mutated into something else.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Shit. Guess I'm the only one.


----------



## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> Sir, it seems you've been genuinely offended at some point by my turn of phrase. I apologize. I have no aims to convince you or anyone of my perspectives. However by simply couching my argument in terms of, as you said, ""capitalism and corporations are all 100% evil" binary", you _are_ choosing to be ignorant and reductive. If you want to fall back to OP; the question of ethics is endemic to our species, it does not exist in a vacuum or in a state of detachment because people do not exist in a vacuum or in a state of detachment.
> Music is a perfect example because in its many forms it is so obviously interrelated and bound by observable rules and parameters; there is absolutely nothing "new" that can be had without attributing or honouring its forbearers. If you want to take exception and suggest that there are some unique _snowflakes_, than I urge you to consider that bias.
> Don't give up before you try, cause I'm trying. If you don't want to, then: gtfo my obstacle course.


Your quotes regarding capitalism/corporations: 

"It's not a good/bad dichotomy, you're right. It's ALL BAD, now you can step in shit and call it a hershey bar, but we all know what the reality is." 

"I am alluding to material scarcity, and unsustainable growth. Both of which are offset by dishonest marketing...which is a misnomer because marketing is never honest" 

Your quotes taking swipes at those who disagree with you: 

"Mr. Zuckerberg, is that you?" 

"the ol' college try" 

"I really don't know if winning an argument is worth burying your head so far in the sand. But, Mike show us how deep you can go!" 

"...you're just being ignorant that purchase power is relative to the dollar, and it communicates power" 

"...but that's just like my opinion man"

Also, noone is saying that products cannot be interrelated or borrow from one another. But there are original/unique creations and theres (personally) a difference between inventing/innovating and taking someone's construction, style/design, model name and brand name (with the upper part of an "O" removed) and selling it while cutting out the originator.


----------



## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> Sir, it seems you've been genuinely offended at some point by my turn of phrase. I apologize. I have no aims to convince you or anyone of my perspectives. However by simply couching my argument in terms of, as you said, ""capitalism and corporations are all 100% evil" binary", you _are_ choosing to be ignorant and reductive. If you want to fall back to OP; the question of ethics is endemic to our species, it does not exist in a vacuum or in a state of detachment because people do not exist in a vacuum or in a state of detachment.
> Music is a perfect example because in its many forms it is so obviously interrelated and bound by observable rules and parameters; there is absolutely nothing "new" that can be had without attributing or honouring its forbearers. If you want to take exception and suggest that there are some unique _snowflakes_, than I urge you to consider that bias.
> Don't give up before you try, cause I'm trying. If you don't want to, then: gtfo my obstacle course.



Is this really necessary? 
Pro tip; when you have only _just _joined a mostly friendly community of guitar enthusiasts, it's best to _not_ be condescending and rude to others. 

Whatever point you were trying to make was made long ago. You are now just in a pointless pissing match. Maybe give it a rest.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Fair enough, looks like I stepped in it, gentlemen. 
I hope you won't begrudge me my dignity in thinking there was a point to be made. I just thought we could go a little further. Enjoy your mornings, people.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> Your quotes regarding capitalism/corporations:
> 
> "It's not a good/bad dichotomy, you're right. It's ALL BAD, now you can step in shit and call it a hershey bar, but we all know what the reality is."
> 
> ...


All is fair in capitalism...and what else? Guess I'll go read my communist manifesto quietly and wait for the next revolution.
I gotta ask, do you honestly hold to that view: "love and happiness are not human needs?"


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## Mike_Blaszk (Sep 16, 2021)

zztomato said:


> Is this really necessary?
> Pro tip; when you have only _just _joined a mostly friendly community of guitar enthusiasts, it's best to _not_ be condescending and rude to others.
> 
> Whatever point you were trying to make was made long ago. You are now just in a pointless pissing match. Maybe give it a rest.


I also apologize for my part in this. Things got off topic and a little out of hand.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Mike_Blaszk said:


> So if were at an impasse, which we naturally and predictably are, why continue down a route that obviously strays from the original intention of the OP.


Well, you two are 5 pages deep.
Why stop now? 🤷‍♂️


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> Gibson is just one of many big companies dealing with this problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes the rape of intellectual property rights is nothing new. I have attended conferences hosted by major manufacturers during which examples of such disgraceful products were presented.

Direct knockoffs with barely changed logos and Brands (Hondah, Yamahay, yes, that stupid) were there to check out. It's not just guitars, it's any ideas or designs they can steal and profit from..


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## Mooh (Mar 7, 2007)

Has anyone mentioned the Gibson Jimi Hendrix Signature guitar? It was legal enough, but totally misjudged the market and the public's idea of what constitutes ethics. (That said, I love the idea of a Strat configured like Hendrix's, strings reversed so the lengths beyond the nut are reversed, bridge pickup reversed, whammy reversed...wish I could afford to switch a leftie Strat to rightie for myself.)


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Mooh said:


> Has anyone mentioned the Gibson Jimi Hendrix Signature guitar? It was legal enough, but totally misjudged the market and the public's idea of what constitutes ethics. (That said, I love the idea of a Strat configured like Hendrix's, strings reversed so the lengths beyond the nut are reversed, bridge pickup reversed, whammy reversed...wish I could afford to switch a leftie Strat to rightie for myself.)



I'm about to start building a guitar with a reverse (six on a side) Fender CBS style headstock. I had to order left handed tuners and I always found that reverse headstocks looked a bit weird, but I'll be able to assess the impact of the longer lengths on the bass strings.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

I dig it Milkman, reverse fender headstock is eye catching.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Milkman said:


> Direct knockoffs with barely changed logos and Brands (Hondah, Yamahay, yes, that stupid) were there to check out. It's not just guitars, it's any ideas or designs they can steal and profit from..


Well if my uneducated mind interpreted the last 5 pages correctly, they’re huge, evil corporations so ripping them off is okay.

(Sarcasm, in case it wasn’t clear)


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

2manyGuitars said:


> Well if my uneducated mind interpreted the last 5 pages correctly, they’re huge, evil corporations so ripping them off is okay.
> 
> (Sarcasm, in case it wasn’t clear)


It's not up to me to judge corporations and apply my justice. My ethics and morals are mine. Their lack of the same doesn't mean I want to sink to that level.

I have enough trouble sleeping at night due to medical issues. I don't need a lousy conscience to add to that.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

2manyGuitars said:


> Well if my uneducated mind interpreted the last 5 pages correctly, they’re huge, evil corporations so ripping them off is okay.
> 
> (Sarcasm, in case it wasn’t clear)


Don't be a turd burglar.
The risk of offshoring your manufacturing process is widespread counterfeiting. The symptom to the disease, comorbidity to the endemic problem.
You don't have to be an intellectual to understand this. If _You_ think any of it is ok, you're wrong but no one is gonna stop you.
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Napoleon Bonaparte


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

Just for clarification, Saddam Hussein can't be wrong. I'm sure this is the definition that was being referenced @2manyGuitars


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

I meant it in the context of a shit-eating fly. However, I believe you've stumbled upon a whole new plateau of profundity. Who's gonna argue with Saddam?


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Milkman said:


> Yes the rape of intellectual property rights is nothing new. I have attended conferences hosted by major manufacturers during which examples of such disgraceful products were presented.
> 
> Direct knockoffs with barely changed logos and Brands (Hondah, Yamahay, yes, that stupid) were there to check out. It's not just guitars, it's any ideas or designs they can steal and profit from..





https://www.cbc.ca/news/fake-colgate-chinese-toothpastes-pose-risks-health-canada-1.664913


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Christ, shut the fuck up already.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)




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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Sorry to derail the last few, very provocative posts. 
I do believe I have a point.
You know, western democracy _is_ a counterfeit of Greek democracy.
The only thing OG here is intellectual property theft and having the means to ship it back here by the boatful. 
So please, pardon me, and carry on with your...uh....whatever it is you guys are doing. Make sure to towel-off the spunk before someone else wants to come in and discuss something you.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

Every once in awhile some young buck comes along to educate and inform us as to how we should think.

I suppose I've been guilty of that and worse.

Lighten up a bit and you'll find this can be a very positive set of resources and a welcoming community.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

I am light. I'm clean, I'm dry, I'm crisp, and wry. 
You are right of course, I am calibrating. 
Can't help to notice when some of the ol' timers get weak and shiftless. 
At all ends, if mutual respect is valued, I will be an advocate for your honest needs. But, hey, I won't stop you from grazing in the pastures of your choosing.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)




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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> So please, pardon me, and carry on with your...uh....whatever it is you guys are doing. Make sure to towel-off the spunk before someone else wants to come in and discuss something you.


They're just making fun of you, that's all. There's only been one guy that wanted to engage with you about whatever you were talking about and he, wisely, gave up. Nobody want's to put up with being insulted. Regardless of age, colour, identity, everyone deserves a basic level of respect.

Imagine it kind of like this; you walk into a bar, see a table with a bunch of people around it. You walk over and sit down and start talking. One person takes issue with what you said and you start arguing eventually turning to insults to help you "win". . Eventually, everyone is looking at each other and thinking "what the fuck is going on here.... who is this guy?". Then, you find that everyone ignores you because, well, you've just dragged everyone down and nobody wants to talk to you. You are left yelling at the proverbial clouds. Would you be "that guy" in person?
This is one of the biggest issues with the online social media world. Some people don't actually see themselves among a community, they just see an outlet for their rage.

It's kind of like that. 
Don't make me post a "lighten up Francis".

That's all I'm going to say about it. Hopefully it helps.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

I get it. And I appreciate you taking the time to write that out. That is obviously not the position I want to occupy. I was genuinely appreciative of the back-and-forth I was having with Mike, but of course, it would seem at some point confusion and brackishness set in. Sometimes you just don't realize you're running around with a pooh-stick in your hand and everyone is running away from you.

But to those making fun; what _are_ you making fun of?


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)




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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

zztomato said:


> Imagine it kind of like this; you walk into a bar, see a table with a bunch of people around it. You walk over and sit down and start talking. One person takes issue with what you said and you start arguing eventually turning to insults to help you "win". . Eventually, everyone is looking at each other and thinking "what the fuck is going on here.... who is this guy?"


Saw it happen at the Green Room many years ago, except it became a brawl and Gerry Barber stepped in and put an end to it very quickly; my first and last look at the man in action.


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## zztomato (Nov 19, 2010)

Paul Running said:


> Saw it happen at the Green Room many years ago, except it became a brawl and Gerry Barber stepped in and put an end to it very quickly; my first and last look at the man in action.


I never did go into the Green Room. It always had that vibe like "enter at your own risk". 😆
Speaking of those days, have you been to The British lately? Really nice restoration of the old place. I played there a few times before the pandemic hit.


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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

zztomato said:


> I never did go into the Green Room. It always had that vibe like "enter at your own risk". 😆
> Speaking of those days, have you been to The British lately? Really nice restoration of the old place. I played there a few times before the pandemic hit.


Yeah, that was the last time that I went to the Green Room, that was an eye opener for me. No, I haven't been to the British for a very long time. We used to go see Hughie Scott there back in the 70s...I don't go out much now.


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## tomee2 (Feb 27, 2017)

Milkman said:


> I'm about to start building a guitar with a reverse (six on a side) Fender CBS style headstock. I had to order left handed tuners and I always found that reverse headstocks looked a bit weird, but I'll be able to assess the impact of the longer lengths on the bass strings.
> 
> View attachment 386065


I'd like to know what you think of the shorter excess string on the g b e strings. I have a lefty neck on a top loader tele and that's where I notice it felt different from my Strat.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

tomee2 said:


> I'd like to know what you think of the shorter excess string on the g b e strings. I have a lefty neck on a top loader tele and that's where I notice it felt different from my Strat.



Well I always end up playing the new ones pretty extensively as I get them dialed in so I'll do my best to consider your question as I do so. I'll also receive the impressions of my go to set up man (Steve Blundon) and he's likely to have meaningful feedback. He's a good guy for giving me what I want and what I want, is the truth, not a yes man.

In fact, I'm heading over there in a few minutes to drop off RiverBottom.


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> I am light. I'm clean, I'm dry, I'm crisp, and wry.
> You are right of course, I am calibrating.
> Can't help to notice when some of the ol' timers get weak and shiftless.
> At all ends, if mutual respect is valued, I will be an advocate for your honest needs. But, hey, I won't stop you from grazing in the pastures of your choosing.


You should analyze this response to determine why it may irritate others. Fuck.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

BlueRocker said:


> You should analyze this response to determine why it may irritate others. Fuck.


What exactly do _you_ take offense with?


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## BlueRocker (Jan 5, 2020)

Found it...


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)




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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> You know, western democracy _is_ a counterfeit of Greek democracy.


No, actually, it isn't.

Ancient Greek democracy had elements of modern democracy, but was not something that any of us would even remotely recognize as a democracy.

You can pontificate all you want, but get your facts straight first otherwise you just make yourself look like an uninformed little dilettante. I'm a historian and an academic so I can do this all day. In fact, I get paid to do this all day. So get your shit in order before making pronouncements because there are people here far more intelligent and accomplished than you, who will tear you apart without breaking a sweat (damn I miss @boyscout, who would've eaten this guy alive). Don't try to play in the big leagues when you ain't got the skills Skippy.

Or, better yet, take my advice above and just shut the fuck up already.


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## colchar (May 22, 2010)

zztomato said:


> Regardless of age, colour, identity, everyone deserves a basic level of respect.


Not drummers (with the obvious exceptions of Peart, Bonham, and Moon of course).


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)




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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)




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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

colchar said:


> No, actually, it isn't.
> 
> Ancient Greek democracy had elements of modern democracy, but was not something that any of us would even remotely recognize as a democracy.
> 
> ...


@colchar is this supposed to be a mark of intelligence? any of it? Or a sign of maturity? Splitting the short and curlys to make your self feel better.
You brushed up on history but not much on critical thinking, right? See, if you made a sensible claim that would make you seem like a sensible person...I guess you don't get paid for that so there's no need.
Anyway, I wasn't hellbent on winning an argument. The average, decent, person would take a measured response instead of going face-first in the shit like you just did. In fact it looks like you funboys need to get a room instead of dogpiling me.
@BluesRocker, I wasn't being facetious, I was asking you what you thought.
@colchar I guess I've stumbled upon some kind of sick human-centipede daisy chain here. Enjoy your self-fellating den of inequity.
Forgive the lateness of my reply, my internet went down.


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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

🖐


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)




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## Milkman (Feb 2, 2006)

2manyGuitars said:


>


It can.


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## 2manyGuitars (Jul 6, 2009)

Milkman said:


> It can.
> 
> View attachment 386238


If I didn’t use that feature for the flat earth thread, I ain’t using it here.


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Back on topic:

I just played a gold-top Chibson LP w/ 2 P90s. It's always a kick when I read the "Made in USA" on the back of the headstock - so blatantly false. It's the 3rd counterfeit Gibson I've played, the second in just the last couple of months. My mini-review:

Clearly not a Gibson, even from 10 feet away. But it was playable, intonated fine, weighed about the same as your average Epiphone LP and felt similar. Neck was actually nice but too much gloss on the back for me, finish was OK w/ some minor blemishes, electronics were typical. Couldn't tell what type of wood, but the body & neck felt solid - not Gibson solid. The pickups were just so-so but it's nothing that can't be addressed. Other than its counterfeit status, I would think anyone who plays a sub $800 single cut would more than likely find it just fine. Any player worth their salt could tell it's definitely not a POS, but it was unremarkable and for me, was not special enough to own.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

I have never seen so many _aged_ men act so insecure. An oblique study in counterfeit, I guess. Go on you phonies hit the ignore button.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

FatStrat2 said:


> Back on topic:
> 
> I just played a gold-top Chibson LP w/ 2 P90s. It's always a kick when I read the "Made in USA" on the back of the headstock - so blatantly false. It's the 3rd counterfeit Gibson I've played, the second in just the last couple of months. My mini-review:
> 
> Clearly not a Gibson, even from 10 feet away. But it was playable, intonated fine, weighed about the same as your average Epiphone LP and felt similar. Neck was actually nice but too much gloss on the back for me, finish was OK w/ some minor blemishes, electronics were typical. Couldn't tell what type of wood, but the body & neck felt solid - not Gibson solid. The pickups were just so-so but it's nothing that can't be addressed. Other than its counterfeit status, I would think anyone who plays a sub $800 single cut would more than likely find it just fine. Any player worth their salt could tell it's definitely not a POS, but it was unremarkable and for me, was not special enough to own.


How did you come to receive the guitar?


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## laristotle (Aug 29, 2019)




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## Paul Running (Apr 12, 2020)

As my pop would say "the truth hurts son".


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

Aged and Insecure. Where you can fault my words, or my opinions, at least I pick my targets (ignorance by any name). I never made "fun" of anyone here. If airing my somewhat exacerbated opinion is just cause for you to act this way, you're not fit to be called elders...just elderly. It's mush time grandpas, do you want me to wheel you out in front of the bay window?


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Mutant_Guitar said:


> How did you come to receive the guitar?


It's for sale just down the street from me. He's honest in that he's advertising it as a Chibson, but IMO dishonest that he bought it for $600. I don't believe that, no one would buy a Chibson knowingly for that much and I've never seen one advertised for that cost. He's selling for less than half that. These things typically sell from between $150 to $250 brand new on various sites, some even on fleaBay, so he's trying to make 50 bucks more than likely.

I forgot to mention the finish on the back was a bit wavy when moving it around using reflected light, but I was surprised there was very little fret sprout. The problem w/ these phonies is they are either 2 or 3 star guitars (out of 5). Like movies, 1 is interesting because they're so bad there's something to them, and 4 or 5 are very good. 2 or 3 rating is the worst IMO because they're so boring with nothing special, they inspire sustained & vicious yawning.


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

That's a good call, and I share your opinion in the movie analogy...it's always nice when they try but eff it up, middle of the road is just milquetoast. 
Why do finishes go wavy? And how could you spot a refinish or a botchjob in the finish?


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## FatStrat2 (Apr 7, 2021)

Beats me.

I have 2 Berettas, the Candy Purple has a beautiful finish, but my Candy Blue has a bit of a wave in the finish above the pickup. Go figure. Only difference is the Candy Blue is really a metallic Blue, probably makes no nevermind though.

At the same time, I was trying to make lightning strike twice when I bought the Candy Blue guitar after the spectacular success of the Candy Purple purchase, but the Blue one just ain't the same - it's OK. Maybe it's a Monday or Friday guitar. Whatchagonnado? (except sell)


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## Mutant_Guitar (Oct 24, 2021)

I have a warbly finish spot on the back of my Collings, and I think this may have been the result of lacquer applied to some extensive buckle rash (14 year old guitar, and I'm the 3rd owner), in any case it's not a factor in the sound, but it does make me wonder.


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