# 112 Speaker Cab thoughts?



## Guest (Jan 3, 2017)

I recently acquired a Celestion G12-80 Classic Lead to upgrade from my Weber Alnico 10.
At first, I was thinking of just cutting a bigger hole in the Baltic Birch baffle of the current
cab that I have (nothing special). I plan on selling the Weber. Then the thought of selling
the Weber in it's existing cab and either buying or building a 112 is making more sense.




























Wha 'cha all think?


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

The Celestion's an upgrade over the Weber?  

Tough call. There's both adv and disadv to selling the speaker with or without the cab. I'd offer it optionally with the cab to split the difference here/on kijiji and see what bait the fish prefer. That said, a no-name cab (DIY?) will never be worth much , so what's your time to build a replacement vs enlarging the hole cost you?


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2017)

Granny Gremlin said:


> The Celestion's an upgrade over the Weber?


I needed (ok, wanted) an increase in handling power (80 vs 30 watts) and the price fit my budget.



Granny Gremlin said:


> That said, a no-name cab (DIY?) will never be worth much , so what's your time to build a replacement vs enlarging the hole cost you?


No rush, I'm in no hurry.

Enlarging the hole would be the most time efficient way of going.
Looking at some of the beautiful work done by forum members over the years has me wanting to build one too.
A little googlin' brought up this;
FORTE 3D 112 GUITAR SPEAKER CAB


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

laristotle said:


> I needed (ok, wanted) an increase in handling power (80 vs 30 watts) and the price fit my budget.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks laristotle for posting this, I'd never seen this cabinet before and to me it looks really interesting..

I'm interested enough that I'm going to make one for myself sometime soon. 

This picture leaves few questions.


----------



## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

The following is just a guess on my part.


----------



## Guest (Jan 5, 2017)

From the link that I provided previously

_Weighing in at a modest 30 pounds, the cab is built with side ports and has an internal design that reflects the 
sound that comes from the back of the speaker out through the sides. The result is some of the characteristics of 
a closed back cabinet, nice low end punch and tightness, but the breathiness and volume projection of an open back._


----------



## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

I suspect the routes are intended to leave the structural rigidity intact, but drastically reduce weight. Given their location, I doubt they are intended to either reflect OR dampen (though they may have the latter effect more than the former).


----------



## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

Yah, the reflection thing is a no-go.
That ain't gonna happen.


----------



## BMW-KTM (Apr 7, 2015)

Those are awfully big ports.
The surface area with both of them adds up such that it might as well be an open back.
Prolly be better if it was an open back.
At least an open back makes frequency cancelling less likely than side ports.
Unless there's some kind of oval tubing attached to increase air-flow path length.
Then again maybe they want frequency cancelling to occur in order to scoop a certain range to achieve a particular tone.


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

I would say most likely refraction (scattering). But the uniformity of the width, depth and spacing would be a very narrow bandwidth.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

dig ding, what he ^ said (plus also weight reduction). Personally I am skeptical of the whole design for a number of reasons, but maybe it works. There's no way in hell that the routes dampen anything any more so than the unaltered panel would. Also this:



BMW-KTM said:


> Those are awfully big ports.
> Prolly be better if it was an open back.
> At least an open back makes frequency cancelling less likely than side ports.


An open back also eliminates a lot of resonances and backwave distortion because the backwave goes straight out the rear vs bouncing around inside a bit first.


----------



## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

I don't know if its in your budget, but Mark Stephenson's FV cabinet is the best that I have ever used. Open-backed dynamics with closed back low-end. None of the placement issues inherent to open back. I have mine right beside a closed back cabinet and an open back amp hooked up to a route box, so I can A/B them on the fly with the same guitar. You truly get the best of both cab styles. Expensive, but well-designed and build quality second to none. Check his website.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

KapnKrunch said:


> I don't know if its in your budget, but Mark Stephenson's FV cabinet is the best that I have ever used. Open-backed dynamics with closed back low-end. None of the placement issues inherent to open back. I have mine right beside a closed back cabinet and an open back amp hooked up to a route box, so I can A/B them on the fly with the same guitar. You truly get the best of both cab styles. Expensive, but well-designed and build quality second to none. Check his website.


1 x 12 Speaker Cabinet by Stephenson Amplification

Interesting. Any chance of a pic of the interior of one of these cabs? Thanks


----------



## keto (May 23, 2006)

What amp?

I have that speaker, an old British one, in a closed back 1x12 and it is fabulous for my needs. Good enough clean, very awesome with mid-high gain.


----------



## davetcan (Feb 27, 2006)

keto said:


> What amp?
> 
> I have that speaker, an old British one, in a closed back 1x12 and it is fabulous for my needs. Good enough clean, very awesome with mid-high gain.


It's a great speaker, at least the old ones are.


----------



## Guest (Jan 6, 2017)

keto said:


> What amp?


Currently for a Traynor 1/4 horse.
or for something else down the road.
I liked the reviews and the price fit my budget.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

KapnKrunch said:


> I don't know if its in your budget, but Mark Stephenson's FV cabinet is the best that I have ever used. Open-backed dynamics with closed back low-end. None of the placement issues inherent to open back.


That's exactly what I say about my Transmission Line cabs (or more accurately horn low end with open back dynamics, but close enuf). I wonder if that's the enclosure type he uses too. Didn't think anyone ( aside from EA) did.


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Just so I understand what has been noted above, can someone please confirm i'm reading it right.

We're saying the uneven surfaces formed by the weight saving dado's (that if required could all be at different depths and have different widths), will neither dampen nor diffuse the sound waves coming at them, correct? Because if cut correctly they could display qualities of a wall meant to do just that.

We're also saying the reflecto panels (yes my term), if placed properly, will not deflect the sound out those side ports, correct? Because as above, if built and placed properly they would seem to display the qualities of panels in plenty of speaker cabinets that are meant to do just that, sometimes with a delay or other attributes.

Personally I think both those features would work as noted to some degree, I think the reason those cabinets are no longer for sale by that company is a result of doing far too much work by hand and having no sense for what the price point should be, not because the design has no merit.

So here's a proposal and I'll make it first to first Larry (because he posted the cab) _and_ to Granny Gremlin (because he's a skeptic)

I will supply free of charge (you just pick up in Concord Ontario); all the components pictured above, in the same European 13 ply plywood the original maker used, plus whatever hardwood strips you need for cleats. They'll be completely cnc machined and 100% ready to assemble. We'll make the reflecto-baffles adjustable for angle so we can have some fun.

You guys; start a thread, assemble the boxes and put a speakers in them, play it and post your impressions.

If it works, cover the mother in tolex and have fun... if it doesn't, curse me and sell the speaker, and keep telling yourself - nothing ventured, nothing gained.

If you two guys are interested let me know, Jim.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

They won't dampen (unless u calculate properly and they become slot resonators... which only work at a given frequency), but could diffuse ( in a broadband sense even if you increased the size variation as you suggested).

That said, this would likely not be desirable as I touched on above.

It might sound awesome, but not for those reasons.

I would accept the proposal, but I'm gonna have to figure out if I can test it properly, and as to be objective.


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Jimmy_D said:


> We're saying the uneven surfaces formed by the weight saving dado's (that if required could all be at different depths and have different widths), will neither dampen nor diffuse the sound waves coming at them, correct? Because if cut correctly they could display qualities of a wall meant to do just that.


Will not dampen. Will not reflect (angle of incidence = angle of reflection). Will refract/diffuse. But not wide b/w diffusion because they gaps aren't varied in dimensions (so low Q or narrow range of frequencies being diffused).

Also, don't worry about delay. Sound travels at ~ 1000'/sec. So a 1 foot box would have a possible internal reflection delay of 2ms (there and back), well inside the Hass zone (where you start to hear sounds as separate events).

That's a great offer and I hope it happens. I'd be interested in the outcome. Those cabs are highly regarded in some circles.


----------



## Guest (Jan 6, 2017)

Jimmy_D said:


> I will supply free of charge (you just pick up in Concord Ontario);
> all the components pictured above, in the same European 13 ply plywood the original maker used, plus whatever hardwood
> strips you need for cleats. They'll be completely cnc machined and 100% ready to assemble. We'll make the reflecto-baffles
> adjustable for angle so we can have some fun.


That's very generous of you Jimmy.
I'd like to take you up on that offer, however, I will insist on paying you for the materials (doesn't have to be 13 ply. 
the blogger had his made with pine) and your labour. Now having said that, the timing sucks for me right now 
(family concerns that I'm not going to get into).
So .. no rush.
Regarding a review, my ears are not what they used to be. I'm in the 'hey! it works!' camp.
I do know a few guys that I'll ask to use it and have them give me (or write up) their opinions.

THE FORTE 3D 112 GUITAR SPEAKER CAB: Great Tone in 3D!!! | Thaddeus Hogarth


_Weighing in at a modest 30 pounds, the cab is built with side ports and has an internal design that 
reflects the sound that comes from the back of the speaker out through the sides. The result is some 
of the characteristics of a closed back cabinet, nice low end punch and tightness, but the breathiness 
and volume projection of an open back. The sound projects forward to enhance and augment the sound 
coming from the front of the speaker. It is definitely one of those “How come someone never thought 
of this a long time ago?” developments.

The real magic of this cabinet is that the side vents really do create a 3-dimensionality to the sound. 
I am not sure what the science is, but it might have to do with the miniscule difference in time between 
the sound that reaches your ears from the front, vs the sides of the cab. Or maybe the mix of the two. 
We geeked for hours with this cab and it was a joy to listen to especially with effects. It seemed to 
create a stereo sound from a single source. Effects such as reverb and delay became room filling and 
multi-dimensional. Rotary sounds such as vibe and chorus seemed closer to Leslie than in other cabs. 
I found myself listening from different parts of the room. At higher volume this effect was less 
pronounced but still very present._


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Granny Gremlin said:


> They won't dampen (unless u calculate properly and they become slot resonators... which only work at a given frequency), but could diffuse ( in a broadband sense even if you increased the size variation as you suggested).
> 
> That said, this would likely not be desirable as I touched on above.
> 
> ...


Okay lets do it, I'd be interested in your input. 

Let's sort out the details and within a couple weeks max I can have the parts ready.

I'm open to suggestions for both the reflector panel and the slots...


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

laristotle said:


> That's very generous of you Jimmy.
> I'd like to take you up on that offer, however, I will insist on paying you for the materials (doesn't have to be 13 ply.
> the blogger had his made with pine) and your labour. Now having said that, the timing sucks for me right now
> (family concerns that I'm not going to get into).
> ...


To be honest I'm going to do the screen time for myself anyway, once that's done multiples or singles really doesn't matter time-wise for the cnc, and I have a couple sheets of the plywood already, so to me the input from members here easily offsets the costs... no worries on cabinet parts, I'm happy to toss those in.

Lets see what everyone thinks and come to a consensus, then I'll get to cutting wood.


----------



## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

greco said:


> 1 x 12 Speaker Cabinet by Stephenson Amplification
> 
> Interesting. Any chance of a pic of the interior of one of these cabs? Thanks


I would love to post a pic, but don't know how. The speaker is to one side in a lightly dampened compartment. To its left is a straight baffle with a narrow opening at the back. Left of that is a second baffle set in at slight angle(s?) with a narrow opening at the front. One more baffle at different angle(s) and a vent at the front. 

Hope that helps. Mine is loaded with a Vintage 30. If you have the cash, you won't be disappointed. Not too heavy, but quite deep which is a must for decent speaker cab imo.


----------



## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Granny Gremlin said:


> That's exactly what I say about my Transmission Line cabs (or more accurately horn low end with open back dynamics, but close enuf). I wonder if that's the enclosure type he uses too. Didn't think anyone ( aside from EA) did.


Interesting. I am betting similar concept different design. Read my above post to greco...


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

KapnKrunch said:


> Interesting. I am betting similar concept different design. Read my above post to greco...


I couldn't check out his web at the time, but I have now (been there before - checking out the stage hog). Just like greco I'd need to see an internal pic to be certain, but from what I can see on his site (size; like a 2x12, but with the single 12 over to one side vs the middle ), as well as the additional details you gave above to greco (stuffing; internal baffles, some on angles) it is actually pretty likely to be a TL. It could also be other cab types, such as the reflex horn (see the Musicman 115 RH or 212RH, as well as tube-era Sunn 1 and 2x15s). The way to tell for sure is to imagine all the internal baffles as a single folded tube. If that tube starts small at the driver end and gets progressively bigger at the port end, then it's a reflex horn. If the port starts large at the driver end and narrows (or even stays about the same) towards the port end, then it's a TL. 

Here's my TL prototypes (started as a 2x12, but I cut it in half because it wouldn't fit in my bass players Honda Civic):










And here is one of those TLs next to my MM 115RH (came to me with that Traynor badge on; now removed - had a bitch of a time figuring out what it really was) and my DIY 8x10:










The MM 2x12RH is the same but for the speakers loaded in the box.

This is a Sunn (not mine):










... and a closup of the top half:










The Sunn 1x15 (top half of the above 2x15) is identical to the Musicman aside from the width (due to being loaded with 2x12 sometimes).


----------



## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Granny Gremlin said:


> I couldn't check out his web at the time, but I have now (been there before - checking out the stage hog). Just like greco I'd need to see an internal pic to be certain, but from what I can see on his site (size; like a 2x12, but with the single 12 over to one side vs the middle ), as well as the additional details you gave above to greco (stuffing; internal baffles, some on angles) it is actually pretty likely to be a TL. It could also be other cab types, such as the reflex horn (see the Musicman 115 RH or 212RH, as well as tube-era Sunn 1 and 2x15s). The way to tell for sure is to imagine all the internal baffles as a single folded tube. If that tube starts small at the driver end and gets progressively bigger at the port end, then it's a reflex horn. If the port starts large at the driver end and narrows (or even stays about the same) towards the port end, then it's a TL.
> 
> Here's my TL prototypes (started as a 2x12, but I cut it in half because it wouldn't fit in my bass players Honda Civic):
> 
> ...


Similar to the Sunn but completely different baffles. First one is in square, if I remember correctly. Gaps are very narrow. Angles much gentler. Altho the original idea seems to be around for a while, from these photos, I would think Mark has his own thing going on. Granny didnt i send you pics of the SessionMaster which you posted for me?

Actually looking more closely, its not even close on any of them.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Yes you did. I can do that again if you like.


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

TimeLine is a great concept - I'd love to try a guitar cab like that. Remember the DCM TimeWindow hi-fi speakers? Unique at the time. That was my first exposure to timeline technology.

But they tend to be large. Which can be a big disadvantage sometimes. I would think Thiele designs get 90% of the way there, sonically, with a much smaller footprint. My Thiele w/ EVM12-L is an amazing cab, although quite heavy with that driver (heavier than many 112 combos).

I have a 212 horizontal horn reflex cab that mean to put better speakers in and play around with. It's somewhere in the middle of that pile of 'things to do when I retire'. I better retire soon, before that pile falls over and kills me.


----------



## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

It's not something like the grooves increase the surface area or something like that?


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Think of this, but not as complex a pattern.










This is an RPG diffuser panel, from the brilliant mind of Dr. D'Antonio.


----------



## Guest (Jan 7, 2017)

allthumbs56 said:


> It's not something like the grooves increase the surface area or something like that?


As mentioned previously, I also think that the 'grooves' are mostly for weight relief.


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

High/Deaf said:


> Think of this, but not as complex a pattern.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok I'm ready to get on with the programming, I agree the grooves are a weight saving feature but I'm going to cut them just like that diffuser panel pictured above. 

The idea being to diffuse or dampen the sound not being reflected out the ports... we'll see what it sounds like and worse case scenario the slots can be covered with fiberglass.

I'll post some screen shots in this thread of the parts as programmed before I cut them, if there's any more suggestions I'd appreciate hearing them, thanks.


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Looks like they've been doing similar things in Europe.

Gear page has had a pretty good look at the Forte version.

Ok I've been working on my cnc program and the final details for the box, so a bit of an update.

Looking at the baffles I've decided to follow JBL's lead and use a curved deflector.

I've made the handle cut out and recessed jack plate cut out to dimensions found for those parts found at NextGenGuitars.

I'm using a large finger-joint detail for the corners of the box, they'll be pre-drilled for screws and along with glue will be quite strong.

Overall size is 21" wide x 16" high x 15" deep - I added an inch to the depth to make a bit more reflecto-room inside...

Here's some screen shots of the parts I've done the machining for -


The bottom with radius grooves for the baffles and dado's at different random depths to relieve weight and perhaps more;










The top with cut out for the handle;










The sides with reflecto-ports;










If you jam all the parts for 3 complete boxes into an optimizing program it dumps out two programs for two sheets of plywood, in about 8 seconds, that look like this;



















I'll be cutting these parts in less than a week, if there's any suggestions fire away, signing out for the evening.


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Nicely done, @Jimmy_D 

Once you get this sorted out, you can move on to the Paragon


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

allthumbs56 said:


> It's not something like the grooves increase the surface area or something like that?


Technically they do, slightly. Don't think that's relevant in a speaker cab, though the associated increase in volume would be (it's not a very significant increase in volume).



Jimmy_D said:


> Looks like they've been doing similar things in Europe.
> 
> Gear page has had a pretty good look at the Forte version.
> 
> ...


From the review I'm thinking a lot of my suspicions about what's going on in this cab are about right.

The curved reflectors are a good idea, though if I might suggest they meet in the middle vs spaced as you have in the drawings (you have a bit of a void for standing waves there otherwise and it will pump the backwave out the sides better - more like the mouth of the horns on that JBL Paragon). Also, you have to make them out of something more substantial than the 1/8" masonite we saw the flat reflectors made out of in the pics up top. Not much (it's not dealing with any real bass), but some.

Doing that however creates a sealed pocket of air which is bad (it will resonate). You can relieve that by opening up the back wall of the cab behind the reflectors or at least venting it with multiple large holes (enuf so it doesn't resonate like a bass reflex).

A crude illustration (not to scale) to give you the idea (green = speaker; red the reflectors; black the exterior box; grey the ports).










You can make the top and bottom the full square footprint (vs following the reflector curve) for a) easier construction and b) so it is easier to stack. If you're worried about internal volume loss (yeah, maybe an issue), just make the cab a bit deeper to compensate. The side ports would be best as far towards the rear as possible (you need to leave some wood there for structural integrity).

This is starting to go a bit the way of a transmission line; the main thing missing is that the distance from rear of the cone to the port is not optimised in the same way - there will be some partial freq cancellation - the review above mentioned more mids; my guess is a bit less bass making it sound that way with more scatterred treble, while the mids get reinforced by the backwave without much cancellation in that region; kind of a bandpass transmision line idea.


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Okay, here comes revision 1, curved baffles that extend to the center line, which makes perfect sense, as does extending the depth of the box.

My plan for the baffles themselves is two layers mahogany ply with a maple veneer between them, bent-laminated in a jig so they hold the radius and are stiff/strong/smooth - should be 5/16" total thickness.

Ports are to be placed as far back as possible.

I have an idea to overlap the baffles in the center leaving a space, this will be clear when you see the screen shot... as far as venting the space behind the baffles lets talk once you see my proposed plan.

Thank you for the input, Jim.


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Ok mission accomplished.

I've increased the depth of the box to 16" and revised the baffles so they meet in the centre, where they'll be joined by a machined piece of hardwood.

The bottom gives you a good idea of the layout.










I've made one piece plywood rings to fit in the dado's at the front and back (that will hold the baffle and back door) instead of hardwood strips, here's the piece that will make the ring to hold the baffle with the adaptor ring (to run an optional 10" speaker) in the centre of the offcut or waste material.










I'm cutting on Friday morning this week and I'm open to suggestions until Thursday evening, thanks.


----------



## Guest (Jan 18, 2017)

Looking good!
Am I correct in assuming that you're using CAD software here?
My brother (tool and tie) gave me some software that I still can't figure out.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

That's really shaping up nicely.

This bit below about the baffle mount, lends itself to an opportunity for an easy improvement:



Jimmy_D said:


> I've made one piece plywood rings to fit in the dado's at the front and back (that will hold the baffle and back door) instead of hardwood strips, here's the piece that will make the ring to hold the baffle with the adaptor ring (to run an optional 10" speaker) in the centre of the offcut or waste material.


Since what you are doing is using a sub-baffle, you can float the baffle to significantly reduce the transfer of vibrations from the movement of the drive unit to the rest of the cab. I have done this on all of my DIY builds for a decade now; noticeable improvement in clarity. Most of the work is already done. Just instead of using mechanical fasteners to attach the baffle, you use adhesives with a constrained layer. 1/4" cork sheet is nice because you can just use wood glue (don't use too much; soaking thru the cork renders the exercise moot). There's also asphalt-based damping sheet (get at automotive audio places - to deaden the bodywork when you got stupid subs in the trunk) - one side has a decent adhesive. Or just use an adhesive that has some absorptive compliance to it; like Green Glue.

Just a thought.


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

laristotle said:


> Looking good!
> Am I correct in assuming that you're using CAD software here?
> My brother (tool and tie) gave me some software that I still can't figure out.


Larry it is a cad program but it's one made specifically for the woodworking industry by a company called Planit Solutions, it's geared towards cabinets, furniture and fixtures, it's very user friendly and lighting fast, but you really pay for that.

It's hard to believe but I can tell you that the full software package allowing you to go from "screen to machine", with install and training cost in excess of $30K, plus there's a $1500 annual maintenance fee and an annual security key charge...


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Granny Gremlin said:


> That's really shaping up nicely.
> 
> This bit below about the baffle mount, lends itself to an opportunity for an easy improvement:
> 
> ...


I do have plenty of offcuts of sheet cork 1/4" thick which I will supply cut to fit as a gasket and it can be used if required... I'd use spray contact cement to hold it in place. 

Thanks for your input.


----------



## Guest (Jan 18, 2017)

Jimmy_D said:


> It's hard to believe but I can tell you that the full software package allowing you to go from "screen to machine", with install and training cost in excess of $30K, plus there's a $1500 annual maintenance fee and an annual security key charge...










Think I'll stick with a ruler and pencil.


----------



## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Jimmy_D said:


> the full software package allowing you to go from "screen to machine", with install and training cost in excess of $30K, plus there's a $1500 annual maintenance fee and an annual security key charge...


Still cheaper compared to a wife !!!


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Worth it for a pro shop - you can go from design to precut kit in however fast your CNC machine can go and just keep cranking them out after that. 

You're welcome Jimmy.


----------



## Guest (Jan 29, 2017)

Jimmy_D said:


> I'm cutting on Friday morning this week and I'm open to suggestions until Thursday evening, thanks.


Hey @Jimmy_D 
How's goes the battle?


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

So far so good, I cut the two sheets of cab parts and also some parts for a jig to bend the baffles, I'll post some pics later this week when I get the baffles laminated and cut to size and give the parts a quick sanding so they go together easily. 

My plan is to post some pic's as I knock one together so you can see the assembly method.

Parts ready for pick up shortly.


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Well I'm just getting to sanding the parts and tonight and will have to do the radius baffles tomorrow and assembly on the weekend, but it's safe to say you guys are good to pick up anytime next week.

Depending on how the first one goes together I may end up assembling the basic boxes and you guys can pick them up assembled, either way I'll be finished by this Sunday night.

We'll see how the assembly goes and I'll post pics so chime in and let me know what you think.

For now here's something interesting - the software I'm using allows you to detail the individual parts for drilling/machining, and then it automatically "nests" them on whatever material you select, to optimize the material.

The savings come when you cut an entire project at once, mind you the job needs to be a little bigger a few speaker boxes to effect any savings.

Below - 1st sheet partially cut, 1st sheet complete, 2nd sheet partial, 2nd sheet complete - total drilling/machining/cutting time was 32 minutes


----------



## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Yes you did. I can do that again if you like.


Sorry must have missed this reply. I will try get some photos when i get over this cold/flu thing. Thanks Bud.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Jimmy_D said:


> Well I'm just getting to sanding the parts and tonight and will have to do the radius baffles tomorrow and assembly on the weekend, but it's safe to say you guys are good to pick up anytime next week.
> 
> Depending on how the first one goes together I may end up assembling the basic boxes and you guys can pick them up assembled, either way I'll be finished by this Sunday night.
> 
> ...


Nice. So is this your CNC machine, or your work's, or you rent time ? I am starting to have some ideas.


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Details sent by PM @Granny Gremlin


----------



## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

Are these the actual cab parts ? If so, it looks like a 1 X 6" cab !


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

BGood said:


> Are these the actual cab parts ? If so, it looks like a 1 X 6" cab !


There's a good reason it looks like that, the machine bed is 5' x12 ' and those parts are cut on a 4'x8' sheet, it's an illusion...

The baffle is cut for a 12" speaker.


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

When the parts come off the machine the edges are quite sharp so you need to break all of them, you also need to sand all the flats and square up the corners of the joints (because the machine can't do a corner any sharper than the radius of the cutter, in this case 3/8").

So it's mission accomplished on the above and on to a test fit of all the parts, I'll let the pictures do the talking and throw in a few notes.

Box joints










Bottom Panel










Top panel with cut out for handle










Sides - they're mirror image, there's no left or right, side ports at the back.










You get the picture


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

These rings replace the wood cleats typically used to hold the front and back panels, because those panels are removable these rings will help to keep the box square/strong.

Wide ring at the back / narrow ring to the front.










Baffle cut for 12" speaker and adaptor ring for 10" speaker if desired (8-32 studs)




















Back panel with cut out for Recessed Jack Plate










Knock it together


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Wide ring to the back, narrow ring to the front




















On goes the top




















If you check the pics you'll see it's all predrilled at the corners and into the rings front and back so it doesn't need to be clamped, the whole thing can be screwed (and glued) together

Baffles tomorrow, after waffles...


----------



## BGood (Feb 20, 2015)

Insane !


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Jimmy_D said:


> * after waffles...*


Amazing!! Congrats on all the work you have put into this!

...and to think that this machine can also make waffles! 

Thanks for all the pics..they make it much easier to comprehend this cab in 3-D.

Enjoy the waffles....


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Well the baffles are a bit of a headache for assembly, and the corners need to be routed and I wasn't sure you guys had a router, so I decided to assemble the boxes and save everyone grief.

I decide to put the baffles in on cleats to make the assembly straightforward, the baffles themselves can be wrestled into place once the box is together.

Here's the bottom with the cleat glued in place, I'm using a 3/8" thick mahogany 3-ply for the cleats and baffles.










Once the box is together with the cleats glued in place, I set the baffles in place, glued and screwed into the cleats.










Lets just call this cleavage










And the back door goes on, holes pre-drilled for screws. 










one more post to follow...


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

The baffle can be wrapped in grill cloth and it'ts screwed in place from behind by reaching through the handle hole on the top (I just did it, it's not to much hassle), then the handle can go on last.










All corners/edges router to 3/8" radius. All you need to do is fill the screw holes and any imperfections, give it a quick sanding and you're ready to wrap with tolex.










Good luck gents, can''t wait to hear what they sound like, I have far too many other projects on the go to do any more on mine for a while but I would love to hear your impressions and maybe a sound clip if possible, Jim.


----------



## Guest (Feb 6, 2017)

That's beautiful work Jimmy.
Hard to tell in the pics, but, is there access through the cleavage for the speaker wire hook up?


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

No I didn't buy you can drill a small hole just about anywhere for the wires, don't think it matters where.


----------



## Guest (Feb 6, 2017)

I'll make sure not to drill it in the center seam then. lol.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

@laristotle ... I really, really, really, really hope to get the chance to hear this someday....hint, hint.


----------



## Frenchy99 (Oct 15, 2016)

Impressive work !!!


----------



## Guest (Feb 6, 2017)

greco said:


> @laristotle ... I really, really, really, really hope to get the chance to hear this someday....hint, hint.


When things go as planned, you will.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

laristotle said:


> When things go as planned, you will.


@laristotle Thanks very much. 

As you well know, I am a very curious person by nature.
Combine that with my interest for those that use science and technology to think "outside of the box" (or...in this case 'inside' of the box) and apply it to acoustic design (with 'form' following 'function') AND then to actually make it using the machine pictured in this thread...WHOA! 
....TOO MUCH for me to handle...LOL


----------



## Guest (Feb 6, 2017)

Now the tough part comes.
Choosing finish.
Tolex, paint, other?


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I think tolexing would be a huge challenge, especially given all of the "ports".
However, I'm confident that you have the required skills.

Personally, I would go with something that is easy to apply and repair...like a slightly tinted shellac or tinted oil.

What is appealing to you ...after giving it some thought?


----------



## Guest (Feb 6, 2017)

greco said:


> I think tolexing would be a huge challenge, especially given all of the "ports".
> However, I'm confident that you have the required skills.


As a teen I worked in a furniture factory during the summer where I learned upholstery.
I'm covered there.
I'm thinking something more durable, like truck bedliner paint, 
or whatever it was that we were discussing at Fannie's last week.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

I almost certain this is what was mentioned....

Canada's Largest Inventory of Celestion, B&C and Eminence speaker drivers.


----------



## Guest (Feb 6, 2017)

If you could narrow down the search results in your link, it would be much appreciated.

edit; never mind. The first time I clicked it took me somewhere else.


----------



## Guest (Feb 6, 2017)

greco said:


> I almost certain this is what was mentioned....
> 
> Canada's Largest Inventory of Celestion, B&C and Eminence speaker drivers.


Hmm. Pretty pricey for what it is.
Think I'll go the tolex/grill cloth route and paint the baffle and back panel flat black.


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

BTW if anyone is interested the weight of the box as it sits is pretty much right on 23 pounds, doing the math it should be in the high 30's when complete.


----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Stain it! Also I need to go back a few pages.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Budda said:


> Stain it!


Great minds think alike!


----------



## Guest (Feb 7, 2017)

Budda said:


> Stain it! Also I need to go back a few pages.





greco said:


> Great minds think alike!


Except for how the how the edges join together.
And there's the screws to consider too.


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

laristotle said:


> I'll make sure not to drill it in the center seam then. lol.


LOL Yea, a hole in the seam might make it sound farty.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

laristotle said:


> Except for how the how the edges join together.
> And there's the screws to consider too.


So much for the "great minds" part...LOL

Given this, I'm now officially changing my mind to using tolex...especially knowing that you have the upholstering skills to do it.


----------



## Guest (Feb 7, 2017)

Painting it is still an option.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

High/Deaf said:


> LOL Yea, a hole in the seam might make it sound farty.


Good one! Thanks for the morning laugh.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

laristotle said:


> Painting it is still an option.


Back to the "bed liner" concept?...or just regular paint? 

Any thoughts on colour if you don't go with black?


----------



## Guest (Feb 7, 2017)

greco said:


> Back to the "bed liner" concept?...or just regular paint?
> 
> Any thoughts on colour if you don't go with black?


Possibly the 'bed liner' stuff.
As for colour, I wouldn't know what to choose.


----------



## Guest (Feb 7, 2017)

Googlin' around for tolex ideas, I came upon this speaker cab design. Wild.


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Wow, that looks very cool - and expensive to build, I bet. I wonder how much science went into the transmission line layout? Most companies that do this use CFD, TEF, anechoic chambers, etc. It looks very professionally done. If nothing else, it would make a great laundry pair.


----------



## djmarcelca (Aug 2, 2012)

laristotle said:


> And there's the screws to consider too.


If the cabinet is glued and screwed the screws are completely unnecessary after the glue dries and cures.
Remove them, fill the holes with plugs or filler and stain away.

Or glue a nice veneer over top and stain that.


----------



## Guest (Feb 7, 2017)

djmarcelca said:


> Or glue a nice veneer over top and stain that.


Now there's a thought.
Thanks.


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Gents, sorry but staining is really not an option, as Larry noted there's the screws and then all the endgrain, plus ply doesn't look great stained, it would take a ton of filling and sanding... I really built it with tolex in mind, paint would work but still a lot of filling/sanding would be required.

As for removing the screws, you can do that but there's no need, they're all countersunk and filling will be easier with the screws in place, will be stronger also.

Veneer - sorry not now that the corners are rounded, unless your an absolute master at hammer veneering...

I'd use your upholstery skills and go with tolex and grill cloth.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Jimmy_D said:


> Gents, sorry but staining is really not an option.


I really need to do more thinking and analysis before I post a suggestion/comment.


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

Don't get me wrong, staining is an option for sure but I think it's a ton of work to make it look like a pro job... with a bit of luck and skill tolex will produce a very nice result with little effort.


----------



## Guest (Feb 7, 2017)

Jimmy_D said:


> I'd use your upholstery skills and go with tolex and grill cloth.


That's the top of my list too.
Maybe a flat black baffle board and mesh screen instead of grill cloth though.


----------



## KapnKrunch (Jul 13, 2016)

Extra views of the Stephenson FV cab, especially the inside. For those who were interested. Sorry for the delay.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

KapnKrunch said:


> Extra views of the Stephenson FV cab, especially the inside. For those who were interested. Sorry for the delay.
> 
> View attachment 59345


Thanks very much. I was one of the interested readers and I wasn't expecting to actually see pics.

I can now see how complicated the inside of this cab would be to explain. 

Fascinating design!


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

laristotle said:


> I'm thinking something more durable, like truck bedliner paint,
> or whatever it was that we were discussing at Fannie's last week.


I've used that before. My tip: the rattle can stuff from Crappy Tire ain't hardly any more durable than paint (you'd need about 2 cans). Get the pro stuff they use in proper spray rigs at custom shops (probably need to take it to such a shop).

There's also this stuff, which is kinda like truck bed liner: "Acry-Tech DuraTex Black 1 Quart Roller Grade Cabinet Texture Coating Kit with Textured 3" Roller " from www.parts-express.com!



High/Deaf said:


> Wow, that looks very cool - and expensive to build, I bet. I wonder how much science went into the transmission line layout? Most companies that do this use CFD, TEF, anechoic chambers, etc. It looks very professionally done. If nothing else, it would make a great laundry pair.


That's not a proper transmission line (too long and not tapered. Frankly I have no idea what it is. And since the 90s they have mathematical models for TLs (see the MathCAD worksheets developed by Martin King). I don't use them just because I've had good luck with just some basic calcs and then and prototyping (also too cheap to buy Mathcad softare; don't need it for anything else). All companies worth a damn test their products in anachoic chambers no matter the type of cab (thats how you measure freq response).



KapnKrunch said:


> Extra views of the Stephenson FV cab, especially the inside. For those who were interested. Sorry for the delay.


Hey, sorry bud - got yer email the other day just been sick and offline mostly.


----------



## Guest (Feb 7, 2017)

Thanks Granny.
greco mentioned the Duratex earlier.
Not discounting it yet. All options are open.


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

Granny Gremlin said:


> That's not a proper transmission line (too long and not tapered. Frankly I have no idea what it is. And since the 90s they have mathematical models (see the MathCAD worksheets developed by Martin King) for TLs now. I don't use them just because I've had good luck with just some basic calcs and then trial/error and prototyping (also too cheap to buy Mathcad softare; don't need it for anything else). All companies worth a damn test their products in anachoic chambers no matter the type of cab (thats how you measure freq response).


But if not a TL, then what were they trying to make? Just because it's different, who knows for sure it it's too long or not profiled correctly - thus my comments about if they used science or just winged it? Maybe they've come up with something new. Just because we've never seen anything like that, doesn't mean it doesn't work. I just look at the effort put into the construction and would like to know if some kind of planning, science or testing went in to it. Or was it just done to look cool - DAMN COOL!

Again, that's why my comment about whether they've had access to TEF or anechoic resources or whatever. Is this acoustically viable or just shits and giggles? You know NRC has a chamber anyone can use. Waterfalls are easy to do now for free - you don't have to pay Crown anymore for that. So it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that there is some serious science behind this. Break-through hi-fi speaker companies are quite literally coming out of the woodwork nowadays (i.e. Funk Audio on Van Isle or Danley manifolds - technology licensed to Yorkville).


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

It could work, if the speaker (judging from the relative size of the screw heads vs driver cutout) is 4-5" that makes the line 48-55" - that would mean the driver's resonant freq would have to be in the 65Hz neighborhood (very unlikely for a drive unit of this size; usually 90-120Hz).... unless they don't stuff the line at all and then it would be about 130Hz (which seems too high for a single way speaker to be useful, integrating a sub becomes difficult). TLs also do not use a compression chamber (the larger area right behind the driver) like a back-loaded horn would. Could just be an experiment.

But you are right, it could be based on TL theory in part at least; hard to tell much from a single pic. ... it suddenly occurs to me that this could just be a rather over-complicated aperiodic enclosure (there are easier ways of accomplishing that, but this is certainly cooler)


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

You have to admit (and with my limited understanding of woodwork), they put a lot of effort into building it. Some of that milling boggles the mind.


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

laristotle said:


> Googlin' around for tolex ideas, I came upon this speaker cab design. Wild.


That thing is stacked layers of MDF, bolted together - looks like 9 layers of 1" material and cut for a 6" speaker (which would normally require a larger cabinet), so
as Granny noted above, resistive port or something that denotes that, would be a good descriptor.


----------



## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

A 6" driver would indicate to me a full-range hi-fi or near-field monitor, not an MI box. Interesting.


----------



## Guest (Feb 8, 2017)

or a fancy gerbil cage.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Teaser (almost done, just some finishing touches left):


----------



## Guest (Mar 6, 2017)

Looks great!
I'm waiting on some parts and a warm day to paint my baffle.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Dude - what do you think I was doin all last week, lol. Beaut routing/sanding/painting weather


----------



## Guest (Mar 6, 2017)

Granny Gremlin said:


> Beaut routing/sanding/painting weather


more like Beaut beer drinking weather here. lol.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

You know, those 2 things are not mutually exclusive. .... don't even mind a little bit of saw dust in my tall boy anymore.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

[dbl post]


----------



## Guest (Mar 6, 2017)

I'm considering painting the inside flat black too.
Or a least some sort of sealant for protection.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Yeah, if I didn't cover the ports I woulda been going down the route too. But then I saw how much detail sanding there was involved and...

It doesn't need to be sealed for any reason other than aesthetics (since the ports are so big and you can see everything inside), e.g. the inside of any other non-acoustic suspension speaker (which have opennings that let air and moisture in). With an acoustic guitar (no finish on the inside) there is some concern about humidity affecting the wood, because it's so thin and sometimes single pc/solid, but that doesn't apply to a speaker that uses 3/4" opposing grain plywood.

Anyway, apparently you're a whiz with covering things - how you plan on doing the bit around the ports (I totally cheated)?


----------



## Guest (Mar 6, 2017)

Yeah, I'm probably overthinking this. re; sealing the inside.



Granny Gremlin said:


> how you plan on doing the bit around the ports (I totally cheated)?


I was going to ask you this as well. How did you cheat?
Looking at your pic, you managed to stretch the tolex around the curves nicely.
Did you you use a heat gun?

BTW, nice job.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

laristotle said:


> Looking at your pic, you managed to stretch the tolex around the curves nicely.
> Did you you use a heat gun?
> 
> BTW, nice job.


Thanks, but nope - I did not manage to stretch it around nicely. Don't even have a heat gun (been meaning to get one for a while) so dunno if that woulda helped (I expect a bit but maybe not enough for the sharpest part of the bend). I tried a few things on the first side but there was no way I could manage it without leaving small triangle patches of bare wood showing. Filled them with scrap and will paint over the whole port area with some sort of clear coat to keep that from coming apart (though they are Super77 + water based contact cemented down already). One patch (the smallest which had the least surface area to adhere to) lifted already and I got it back down with proper (solvent based) contact cement. I did a patch test of water based CC (lePage) on the a scrap of tolex and it seems to dry nice and clear so will prioobably use that on top around the ports. Just gonna give that another day to make sure it's fully cured and doesn't go white.

I got pretty good at fitting tolex patches tho! Some of them you can't even see up close.


----------



## Guest (Mar 6, 2017)

Let me know how it works out so that I can learn from your mistakes.


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2017)

Show n' tell time!

Finally finished. I didn't start working on it till a week ago.
The hardest part was stretching the tolex around the side portal curves.
I accidentally tore a bit. I used a heat gun on the other side port.
I black marker'd any bits of wood showing.

Now I have to wait for my wife to go out shopping or something to test it out. lol.

Weighs in at 34 lbs, loaded.


















Sliced a plastic tube and stapled it down to run the speaker line to the front.
I cut the side mesh from some old speakers that are ready for the garbage.
Thankfully, they were still in the garage. lol.


















I got the wrong clips for the grill. Made my own using plexiglass and black marker'd them.


----------



## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

CONGRATS!! Wonderful work!

VERY classy look with the gold (brass?) screws on the black.
Your upholstering skills are certainly evident.

I am waiting patiently for your comments after the sound/tone test.

Cheers

Dave


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2017)

greco said:


> VERY classy look with the gold (brass?) screws on the black.


Thank you Dave.
When I went to the hardware store for screws, I seen the brass.
And yes, classy.
They are soft though and I broke two heads.
I only used them for the corners.
For strength on the handle (the front grill too), I painted some steel screws gold.
I miscounted though and have to do two more for the handle.


----------



## Jimmy_D (Jul 4, 2009)

That looks great, happy it's working out and I to await your opinion on how it sounds.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

Looks good!

I feel bad that I haven't even really test driven mine yet. Too busy - both life generally and other projects.


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2017)

Same here.
And now with spring, my wife has a few projects lined up for me. lol.
It'll definitely be at the Riff Wrath Jam though.


----------



## Jim DaddyO (Mar 20, 2009)

Very cool. I love it.

One tip for brass screws. Pre drill the hole, then put in a steel screw of the same size as the brass one you intend to use. Take out the steel one, wax the threads of the brass one and put it in.


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2017)

Jim DaddyO said:


> One tip for brass screws. Pre drill the hole, then put in a steel screw of the same size as the brass one you intend to use. Take out the steel one, wax the threads of the brass one and put it in.


Thanks Jim.
Except for the waxing, I did as you described.


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2017)

laristotle said:


> For strength on the handle (the front grill too), I painted some steel screws gold.
> I miscounted though and have to do two more for the handle.


I think that I'll do the same for the back panel as well.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

laristotle said:


> Same here.
> And now with spring, my wife has a few projects lined up for me. lol.
> It'll definitely be at the Riff Wrath Jam though.


Dunno if I can make it to that. .... and as for spring house projects I have already had to jack up the deck walkway at the side of my house; 1 corner had drooped 8" under the weight of the new AC unit. Stuck me hand in racoon poop 4 times; luckily only once without gloves on.


----------



## Guest (May 22, 2017)




----------



## Budda (May 29, 2007)

Damn Larry, that turned out awesome.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

filthy buggers.


----------



## Granny Gremlin (Jun 3, 2016)

So yeah, this thread is ancient. So sorry @Jimmy_D that I fornicated with the canine so long on this but I finally got a demo vid done, though possibly it was worth the wait because it sounds so much cooler with the speaker I got in there now (recently acquired) vs what I originally loaded in there. I may be a convert to 10s because of it.

Guitar: 1980 Gibson Sonex Custom; first noodle is both pups tapped (usually a rather Stratish sound); second riff (you can hear me switch) is bridge only in full bucker mode (vintage dirty fingers).

Amp: Riviera [sic] 725 head; direct in no pedals

Speaker: Weber 10UFH (vintage style Fane copy) 

I gotta say that this is such a great setup - amazing midrange bite and snarl; garage/punk riff monster but good cleans to - my Sonex sounds like a Firebird (full disclosure: a large part of this may be the amp). The 10" speaker was mounted using the 12:10" adapter ring Jimmy provided. Sorry, shoulda taken the grille off so youze coulds sees it.


----------



## Guest (Mar 31, 2019)

Resurrection I know.
Someone asked me my thoughts on the sound.
Like GG above, I think it sounds really cool. 
What I like about the side ports is in jamming situations. 
You don't have to worry about directing it. Everyone around you hears it.


----------

