# if I had a million dollars ....



## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

Ok folks...for the sake of my argument I am about to make, I will need to assume that I had a million dollars in one Canadian bank account.

OK...the money is in the account and by some strange coincidence, my account gets hacked and I loose all my million. Balance now reads Zero ...nada ...bunch of 000000.00

As soon as I look at my new statement, I walk to my bank and ask for an explanation ...WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED ?
The reply is " your account was hacked and all your money is gone..."

Here is the long awaited question I have for you guys.

Would it not be an easy transaction for the bank to open my account, and place $1,000,000.00 back into that account. After all, the money was there before and it was taken out by a few keystrokes so why would it not be just as easy to replace it with a few more keystrokes?

G.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

Yes, and that is the basis of fiat currency. Except it's not your account the money is just placed into, it's government treasury.

(Yes, I know, slightly simplified).


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## mhammer (Nov 30, 2007)

"Government treasury" demands elaboration. Would hapless victim GTmaker be able to use any of it?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Apparently, the bank would send this as a claim to their own insurer.
I looked it up.


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## LexxM3 (Oct 12, 2009)

mhammer said:


> "Government treasury" demands elaboration. Would hapless victim GTmaker be able to use any of it?


 Sorry, my comment was likely an inappropriate political comment, unlikely really what GTmaker was hoping to discuss; Greco's comment is much more useful.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

greco said:


> Apparently, the bank would send this as a claim to their own insurer's.
> I looked it up.


They would also be in touch with police etc. just the same as if someone robbed the safe. You, among others, would be investigated. The money could be replaced with just a few keystrokes....a million might take more than a few...but it wouldn't be. It could possibly take a few months at least.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

LexxM3 said:


> Sorry, my comment was likely an inappropriate political comment, unlikely really what GTmaker was hoping to discuss; Greco's comment is much more useful.


Not really inappropriate.....well maybe the 'fiat currency' part.....because most of the money isn't in the bank branch anyway. It's just notations in a book. Some say Bank of Canada and some say Gov't Treasury. They are about the same.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

I don't believe so.

You had $1,000,000.00 of, presumably, "your money". 

Your account gets hacked, and "your money" is removed. 

If the bank is going to replace "your money", that $1,000,000.00 will have to come from somewhere. yes, it might be simply computer notations initially, but it becomes real money when you want to withdraw it. At that point, there has to be $1,000,000.00 available for you to withdraw.

Meanwhile, your initial $1,000,000.00; the money the hackers got, is still out there somewhere.

I think the best case scenario is that it's an insurance claim, and you'd get to wait until that claim was settled...


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Something to think about in this case...aren't you only insured for up to 100k in a single account or something like that?


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

JBFairthorne said:


> Something to think about in this case...aren't you only insured for up to 100k in a single account or something like that?


AFAIK, this applies if/when the bank "goes south"


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

Steve6D said:


> I think the best case scenario is that it's an insurance claim, and you'd get to wait until that claim was settled...


Exactly what I read from a few sources on the internet.


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

It seems onerous for the owner of the money to have to wait for an insurance claim that they're not even making. The bank is making the claim. The bank should pay up right away and wait to be reimbursed. It's not like, with the record profits year after year after year, gouging us for fee after fee after fee that they can't afford it.


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

As jdfairthorne said you are covered for up to 100k by CIDC. They are the deposit ins. Corp. it would make sense that the bank would have additional ins. And they SHOULD reimburse you immediately to avoid the fallout of consumers losing faith in our banking system but without further research it is to the best of my knowledge you are only covered for up to 100k. 

Bury it in a box under an O, nobody ever suspects the O lol.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Not the same scale or scenario, but my wife had her card skimmed and the thieves got about $1400 before being shut down. The bank reimbursed us right away, no questions asked.

Edit: And I also believe that the CDIC only insures you against the bank going belly-up.


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## greco (Jul 15, 2007)

bw66 said:


> Edit: And I also believe that the CDIC only insures you against the bank going belly-up.


That is my understanding also.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

JBFairthorne said:


> It seems onerous for the owner of the money to have to wait for an insurance claim that they're not even making. The bank is making the claim. The bank should pay up right away and wait to be reimbursed. It's not like, with the record profits year after year after year, gouging us for fee after fee after fee that they can't afford it.


It may be burdensome, but the bank, and the insurance company, aren't at all concerned with that. 

To pay out right away, I would think the person claiming to have lost $1,000,000.00 would have to prove, _beyond any question_, that the account was hacked and not simply emptied by someone afforded access to it. The bank's ability to absorb the cost is irrelevant...


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

bw66 said:


> Not the same scale or scenario, but my wife had her card skimmed and the thieves got about $1400 before being shut down. The bank reimbursed us right away, no questions asked.
> 
> Edit: And I also believe that the CDIC only insures you against the bank going belly-up.


We had the same thing happen and the bank reimbursed us too...after a great deal of humming and hawing. In our case, because we had no holds on our account, the scammer deposited a bogus $2200 cheque to get a higher balance, then spent it. At the time we didn't have kids..."No, we did not spend $1400 on kids shoes at a store 150 km from us in Etobicoke."


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## JBFairthorne (Oct 11, 2014)

Steve6D said:


> It may be burdensome, but the bank, and the insurance company, aren't at all concerned with that.
> 
> To pay out right away, I would think the person claiming to have lost $1,000,000.00 would have to prove, _beyond any question_, that the account was hacked and not simply emptied by someone afforded access to it. The bank's ability to absorb the cost is irrelevant...


Well surely by the time the bank is pursuing an insurance claim, the facts would be present to support the account holder's claims. An insurance claim wouldn't be started 5 minutes after the customer called. There would be an investigation by the bank to determine the validity of the customer's claim. THEN the bank would file an insurance claim, at THAT time, they should reimburse the customer. Not 3 months later after all the paperwork has gone back and forth between the bank and the insurance company.

Regardless, it's all hypothetical.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

JBFairthorne said:


> Well surely by the time the bank is pursuing an insurance claim, the facts would be present to support the account holder's claims. An insurance claim wouldn't be started 5 minutes after the customer called. There would be an investigation by the bank to determine the validity of the customer's claim. THEN the bank would file an insurance claim, at THAT time, they should reimburse the customer. Not 3 months later after all the paperwork has gone back and forth between the bank and the insurance company.
> 
> Regardless, it's all hypothetical.


You're ignoring the fact that the insurance company is going to investigate the claim, as well, and _that _investigation will likely be far more extensive.

As I said, the bank and the insurance company aren't going to care how long it takes or whether or not it's burdensome for the customer. They're just not. They don't have to...


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

bw66 said:


> Not the same scale or scenario, but my wife had her card skimmed and the thieves got about $1400 before being shut down. The bank reimbursed us right away, no questions asked.
> 
> Edit: And I also believe that the CDIC only insures you against the bank going belly-up.


Your wife's bank card or credit card? Usually happens with CC but not as common with bank accts.

Not only in cases where the bank goes belly up, as that rarely happens in canada.

Of course they make it clear as mud, a "failure" in my reckoning would be a hacker gaining access to your funds.
This is what I came up with in a quick search.


*About deposit insurance *
We are the federal Crown corporation that protects eligible deposits at each of its member financial institutions to a maximum of $100,000, per separatelyinsured category, in case of a failure. Banks and other financial institutions in Canada seldom fail, but it has happened and could happen again.


*What's Covered? *







We insure eligible deposits at each member institution up to a maximum of $100,000 (principal and interest combined) per depositor per insured category.

To be eligible for deposit insurance, deposits must be payable in Canada and in*Canadian currency*. We do not cover foreign currency deposits including US dollars.

Eligible deposits include:


Savings accounts
Chequing accounts
Term deposits, (such as GICs) with original terms to maturity of five years or less
Debentures issued to evidence deposits by CDIC member institutions (other than banks)
Money orders and bank drafts issued by CDIC members
Cheques certified by CDIC members


*What's Not Covered*








Uninsured financial products include:


mutual funds (including money market funds), stocks and bonds;
term deposits, such as GICs, with original terms to maturity greater than five years;
foreign currency deposits (e.g., U.S. dollars);
treasury bills and bankers' acceptances;
principal protected notes that are traded;
debentures issued by banks, governments or corporations;
deposits with receipts payable to bearer (rather than to a named person);
deposits held at financial institutions that are not CDIC members.
Under the _CDIC Deposit Insurance Information By-law_, member institutions must notify depositors when a deposit (or deposit-like) product is not eligible for insurance. For example, if a term deposit is in a foreign currency, the deposit certificate or receipt must state that it is not insured by CDIC.


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## bw66 (Dec 17, 2009)

Moosehead said:


> Your wife's bank card or credit card? Usually happens with CC but not as common with bank accts.


It was her bank card. We know that some gangsters installed a gizmo over top of the card reader on our local bank's machine that would also read the card as it went through. They also put a pinhole camera overhead to read your PIN. Pretty sophisticated, but the bank should have noticed the false cover on the card reader. We don't know for certain that that's what happened to her card specifically, but I suspect that's why it was so easy to get our money back.

Either way, I now take a good look at the card reader whenever I use at a bank machine.


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## Robert1950 (Jan 21, 2006)

I'd buy me a K-Car, a nice reliant auto-mo-bile.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

Steve6D said:


> You're ignoring the fact that the insurance company is going to investigate the claim, as well, and _that _investigation will likely be far more extensive.
> 
> As I said, the bank and the insurance company aren't going to care how long it takes or whether or not it's burdensome for the customer. They're just not. They don't have to...


Ad to that if a Canadian bank got hacked for the sum of a mil they would be more concerned in finding out how etc. Once that's settled then the insurance claim might be settled.
If as moosehead said that you're only covered for $100,000 then I would keep the other $900,000 in cash and blow it on drugs alcohol and hookers.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Steve6D said:


> If the bank is going to replace "your money", that $1,000,000.00 will have to come from somewhere. yes, it might be simply computer notations initially, but it becomes real money when you want to withdraw it. At that point, there has to be $1,000,000.00 available for you to withdraw.


no there doesn't. it a known thing that there isn't currency to match all the money out there, and hasn't been for a really long time. also, there are giant hoops you have to jump through to get a million in cash. try to withdrawl a million bucks and you'll likely get a cashier's check or something. after explaining to a bunch of people what you need it for and what you'll do with it.

a million in hundreds will fit in a suitcase. but then you have to figure out what you'd do with all those hundreds. no one takes them straight away, every single one of them gets verified when you try to spend it. a huge pita. a million in twenties looks like this:










hardly practical to carry around. besides, even if you wanted to do it, you have to order that much cash, it usually takes a couple days. they don't keep it in the vault


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

cheezyridr said:


> no there doesn't. it a known thing that there isn't currency to match all the money out there, and hasn't been for a really long time. also, there are giant hoops you have to jump through to get a million in cash. try to withdrawl a million bucks and you'll likely get a cashier's check or something. after explaining to a bunch of people what you need it for and what you'll do with it.
> 
> a million in hundreds will fit in a suitcase. but then you have to figure out what you'd do with all those hundreds. no one takes them straight away, every single one of them gets verified when you try to spend it. a huge pita. a million in twenties looks like this:
> 
> ...


There was a time when you could get $1000 Canadian Bills. You'd go to the bank, place your order and usually have to come back later.....and they were a bitch to cash. $100? The casino cash out machines and bank machines spit them out and they are taken, at least around here, with no questions asked. The only time there is questions is if it's over $10,000 in cash.


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## Electraglide (Jan 24, 2010)

bw66 said:


> It was her bank card. We know that some gangsters installed a gizmo over top of the card reader on our local bank's machine that would also read the card as it went through. They also put a pinhole camera overhead to read your PIN. Pretty sophisticated, but the bank should have noticed the false cover on the card reader. We don't know for certain that that's what happened to her card specifically, but I suspect that's why it was so easy to get our money back.
> 
> Either way, I now take a good look at the card reader whenever I use at a bank machine.


From what I understand, just after they opened a new mall south of here, someone swapped out some of the debit/credit card machines in some of the stores. It took a while to be discovered.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

Moosehead said:


> <snip>*About deposit insurance *
> We are the federal Crown corporation that protects eligible deposits at each of its member financial institutions to a maximum of $100,000, per separatelyinsured category, in case of a failure. Banks and other financial institutions in Canada seldom fail, but it has happened and could happen again.<snip>


Kinda disturbing what's NOT covered. If our U.S. dollar account, mutual funds, and long-term GICs with our bank were all lost it would be life-changing. And who gets it all, the bank's creditors? What a good feeling knowing that they will be secure!


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

cheezyridr said:


> no there doesn't. it a known thing that there isn't currency to match all the money out there, and hasn't been for a really long time. also, there are giant hoops you have to jump through to get a million in cash. try to withdrawl a million bucks and you'll likely get a cashier's check or something. after explaining to a bunch of people what you need it for and what you'll do with it.


Well, I guess things are different in Canada.

Down here, if the money is in your account, it's your money to do with as you please. Now, hypothetically, if you had $1,000,000.00 in your bank account and wanted to withdraw it, you don't have to tell anyone anything. You might have to give the bank some notice so they're able to amass that much cash but, that's all. But you don't have to tell anyone what you're going to spend it on...



> a million in hundreds will fit in a suitcase. but then you have to figure out what you'd do with all those hundreds. no one takes them straight away, every single one of them gets verified when you try to spend it.


Who verifies $100 bills? I used to spend them all the time in Canada, and no one verified anything...


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## GuitarsCanada (Dec 30, 2005)

Steve6D said:


> Well, I guess things are different in Canada.
> 
> Down here, if the money is in your account, it's your money to do with as you please. Now, hypothetically, if you had $1,000,000.00 in your bank account and wanted to withdraw it, you don't have to tell anyone anything. You might have to give the bank some notice so they're able to amass that much cash but, that's all. But you don't have to tell anyone what you're going to spend it on...
> 
> ...


They just scan the hundreds and fifties to check for.counterfeit. we had a real problem here a few years back with counterfeit 100 dollar bills. A lot of retailers in this area still don't accept them at all.


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Steve6D said:


> Well, I guess things are different in Canada.
> 
> Down here, if the money is in your account, it's your money to do with as you please. Now, hypothetically, if you had $1,000,000.00 in your bank account and wanted to withdraw it, you don't have to tell anyone anything. You might have to give the bank some notice so they're able to amass that much cash but, that's all. But you don't have to tell anyone what you're going to spend it on...
> 
> ...


in the states, (i figured it was similar here) if you are stopped for any reason and they find a large amount of cash on you, it will be confiscated by the tsa immediately. you might get some or most of it back, but no way are you going to get all of it. and it won't be anytime soon, best case scenario.

DEA Hired A TSA Informant To Help Take Cash From People's Luggage

TSA seizes $75,000 in cash from Richmond passenger – and he may not get it back

http://jalopnik.com/5913416/cops-can-confiscate-money-and-property-from-law-abiding-citizens

there are lots more stories like these if you google search. the ones above are from the results i got. the last story is one i was already familiar with before i did the search. i figured canada would do like wise. if they don't do this (i didn't look) then i'd count that as a gigantic check mark on my growing list of "things i like about canadia"


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

It must feel pretty good to be able to worry about losing a million dollars - kinda like me worrying about getting home tonight to find out that Olivia Wilde has taken all her stuff and moved out while I was at work .


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> It must feel pretty good to be able to worry about losing a million dollars - kinda like me worrying about getting home tonight to find out that Olivia Wilde has taken all her stuff and moved out while I was at work .


Sorry to hear about Olivia leaving on short notice. 
I'm still waiting for the bank to replace that Million Dollars I never had in the first place.
Sometimes life sucks...

G.


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

Steve6D said:


> I don't believe so.
> You had $1,000,000.00 of, presumably, "your money".
> Your account gets hacked, and "your money" is removed.
> *If the bank is going to replace "your money", that $1,000,000.00 will have to come from somewhere. *yes, it might be simply computer notations initially, but it becomes real money when you want to withdraw it. At that point, there has to be $1,000,000.00 available for you to withdraw.
> ...


My whole point was to ask WHY doest it have to come from somewhere...?
There is nothing real about the money in a bank account...its just a computer database notation that says you have that much money.
Replace the amount with a few key strokes and all is well in the world.
G.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

GTmaker said:


> My whole point was to ask WHY doest it have to come from somewhere...?
> There is nothing real about the money in a bank account...its just a computer database notation that says you have that much money.
> Replace the amount with a few key strokes and all is well in the world.
> G.


It has to come from somewhere when you want to withdraw it. For that reason, a bank isn't going to perform those key strokes to simply replace it...


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

GuitarsCanada said:


> They just scan the hundreds and fifties to check for.counterfeit. we had a real problem here a few years back with counterfeit 100 dollar bills. A lot of retailers in this area still don't accept them at all.


Oh, okay. Down here we use markers which detect counterfeits. It's hardly a burdensome process...


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

cheezyridr said:


> in the states, (i figured it was similar here) if you are stopped for any reason and they find a large amount of cash on you, it will be confiscated by the tsa immediately. you might get some or most of it back, but no way are you going to get all of it. and it won't be anytime soon, best case scenario.
> 
> DEA Hired A TSA Informant To Help Take Cash From People's Luggage
> 
> ...


That has absolutely nothing to do with what we're discussing, though.

I thought we were discussing a million dollars hacked out of a bank account...


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## cheezyridr (Jun 8, 2009)

Steve6D said:


> That has absolutely nothing to do with what we're discussing, though.
> 
> I thought we were discussing a million dollars hacked out of a bank account...


the conversation didn't move so fast that you couldn't follow it. i even quoted you to make it easy.


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## Steve6D (May 9, 2016)

cheezyridr said:


> the conversation didn't move so fast that you couldn't follow it. i even quoted you to make it easy.


No need to be snarky about it, pal.

We were talking about a hacked bank account. Then you started talking about the need to explain why you would want to withdraw a large sum of your money from your bank account. Perhaps things are different in Canada, but you simply don't have to do that here. If you think a couple of links to articles about cops and TSA agents seizing money negates that you're sorely mistaken. I've traveled with large sums of cash, and I've withdrawn large amounts of money (one time in excess of $60,000.00). Somehow, what _you _seem to believe is commonplace never occurred. The bank simply asked me how I wanted the funds. So, if it's all the same to you, I'll go with what I know and with what I've learned through my own experience, thanks.

Otherwise, it's pretty clear that you think a bank should just replace the money and that, apparently, the money will just fall from the sky when the time comes for it to be actual money and not just numbers in a ledger...


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## allthumbs56 (Jul 24, 2006)

GTmaker said:


> My whole point was to ask WHY doest it have to come from somewhere...?
> There is nothing real about the money in a bank account...its just a computer database notation that says you have that much money.
> Replace the amount with a few key strokes and all is well in the world.
> G.


Wait a minute .................... are you a Finance Minister?


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

allthumbs56 said:


> Wait a minute .................... are you a Finance Minister?


Now that you mentioned it, there are folks that make (print) money from nowhere...
The bank should be able to do the same thing...
G.


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## Moosehead (Jan 6, 2011)

Unless you've converted the currency to bitcoin^)@#


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## GTmaker (Apr 24, 2006)

Moosehead said:


> Unless you've converted the currency to bitcoin^)@#


Bitcoin is a little too complicated for me.
I do have a Bitgold account but its not the same thing...
G.


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

cheezyridr said:


> in the states, (i figured it was similar here) if you are stopped for any reason and they find a large amount of cash on you, it will be confiscated by the tsa immediately. you might get some or most of it back, but no way are you going to get all of it. and it won't be anytime soon, best case scenario. <snip>


Stories are increasing in frequency about U.S. officials seizing property prior to a conviction for any crime, and making it difficult to recover even when innocence is proven. Some of the stories are pretty outrageous abuses of authority. (Remember the old days when they had to prove that you were guilty; you didn't have to prove you were innocent?!)

However your assertion above isn't completely accurate.

On both sides of the border you are required to declare it if you are transporting $10,000 or more. Whatever you're carrying should be valued in the currency of the country you're entering, so if you're coming to Canada with U.S. dollars you should declare if you are carrying more than about (at today's exchange rate) $7,700. You can, however, declare that you're carrying millions of dollars, and as long as officials have no reason to suspect anything improper in your acquisition of the funds you can bring them into either country.

A man carrying $400,000 in Canadian cash in a backpack was questioned by Canadian officials when he landed in Vancouver from the U.S. He had properly declared the money, was questioned about it, and then allowed to enter Canada with it. In the first of the stories you linked (the only one I looked at) it seems that the traveler did not declare the funds he was carrying. In that circumstance border officials may levy a fine (for not declaring) on the spot and return the funds, but they do have authority to make a long and possibly-permanent seizure of them if they can show anything criminal or improper in your possession of them.


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## High/Deaf (Aug 19, 2009)

$400,00? Musta been hoping to put a down payment on a little condo.



GTmaker said:


> Now that you mentioned it, there are folks that make (print) money from nowhere...
> The bank should be able to do the same thing...
> G.


Ask the Greek govt how that's worked for them. 

Or Premier Wynne in a couple more years?


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## boyscout (Feb 14, 2009)

High/Deaf said:


> $400,00? Musta been hoping to put a down payment on a little condo.<snip>


He was a construction manager for a large U.S. company which was building something in B.C. The cash was for paying casual workers on the job site.

Canada Revenue Agency might later have cause for concern (about cash income unreported by workers) but nobody including the Canadian Border Services Agency had any grounds to take the manager's money. As it should be.


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